# MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed



## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

I went to start my motor for the first time last night and I don't get any spark.







I've got a 16v w/ mikuni carbs, MSD 6AL, 8980 Timing Computer and VW Ignition Control Module. I've also got a Carter fuel pump but I don't believe the fuel pump is the issue as I have fuel to the fuel filter inches away from the carbs.
















I wired the ignition based on a diagram courtesy of "BIGCADDY". I've checked and re-checked my wiring, power and grounds and I'm 99% sure it's good. 








My first thought is that the Ignition Control Module is bad. Any ideas on how to test it's operating correctly? I'd hate to buy a new one only to find out that's not the issue. 
Any other ideas on where I should start troubleshooting the MSD parts?
Thanks in advance.


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## heyfu (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed (Caddylicious)*

http://www.msdignition.com/1troubleshoot.htm


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## speedtek40 (Jul 8, 2005)

Put a meter on your switched 12 volts and make sure you have power when the key is on. Not sure if you have already done this, but visually checking the wiring and verifying voltage are two very different animals so I thought I would mention it. The number 4 pin to the ECU normally takes it's feed from the stock coil. When you remove it, you have to physically run switched power to that wire, I caught that when I installed mine and it`s not real clear in that diagram that it`s required.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Is the ignition module even needed with a MSD unit?
I'm looking at the diagram, and I'm guessing the hall sender tells the ICM when to fire the coil, the timing computer intercepts the coil signal, modifies it, then sends it off to the MSD to fire the coil.
Can't you power the hall with 12V, send the signal to the Timing computer, which then goes to the MSD, then to the coil? That may be a question for MSD, the timing computer says it can be triggered off of points or crank sensor with magnetic trigger, not sure if hall sender fits that description.
To test the ICM, I think you can hook the ICM output straight to the coil: ICM pin 1 to the Negative on the coil. If you get spark, you know the problem is elsewhere. Maybe try it with a stock coil.


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed (heyfu)*


_Quote, originally posted by *heyfu* »_ http://www.msdignition.com/1troubleshoot.htm

Thanks for the link! 
I do have a spark from the MSD ignition after all, but still no runny runny. I've checked all my electrical connects with my multi meter and I have good grounds and 12v switched and 12v solid where I need it. 
Any other suggestions on where I should check next?


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed (Caddylicious)*

MSD says I can't use solid core wire. I have Eurosport wires and their website says there wires consist of a 100% double silicone jacket that is wrapped around 19 strands of solid core wire and end with factory connectors. MSD says a suppression style or spiral wound spark plug wire MUST be used.
Guys using MSD ignition, which spark plug wires are you using?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed (Caddylicious)*

The Eurosport wires are spiral wound, solid core wires are stockers, or similar to that. When you yank off the boot, there is a single strand of copper wire, those are the bad ones. I've always had good luck with the MSD wires you build yourself, the kits are cheap







.


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_The Eurosport wires are spiral wound, solid core wires are stockers, or similar to that. When you yank off the boot, there is a single strand of copper wire, those are the bad ones. I've always had good luck with the MSD wires you build yourself, the kits are cheap







.

Thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
So now that I have spark with the MSD Ignition and the plug wires are suitable any other suggestions on where I should check next?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: MSD Ignition Troubleshooting Help Needed (Caddylicious)*

My next guess would be checking for fuel (are the plugs wet? Are the float bowls full of fuel?), then I'd move on to the actual cam timing/ignition timing. 
If they all check out fine...what is your procedure for starting the car? I learned the hard way that a carbed setup requires more attention while turning the key. Pump the gas three or four times, slowly, crack the throttle about 1/3 open, and turn the key. This caused me no end of agony until I figured it out...car wouldn't start no matter what.


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## speedtek40 (Jul 8, 2005)

yep , if you have spark...double check the mechanical timing. Zero everything and then dial in some dizzy advance. If everything else is in order, it will start. Fuel, fire and timing......all you have to worry about with this setup


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (speedtek40)*

Well I have spark at the distributor wire from the coil but I havn't checked if I have individual spark at each plug. Is there an easy way to check that I have spark at each spark plug wire?
I have fuel in the float bowl and the motor ran before I pulled it out of the previous car and put it in my caddy. Nothing has changed on the motor so the timing should still be good. The only thing I did with the motor was pull the carbs to have them re-built then bolted them back on and add the MSD ignition.


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## mack73 (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (Caddylicious)*

Pull a sparkplug out, lay it on the head (so its grounded) DON'T TOUCH IT, Then crank it over, you should see the spark plugs spark


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## speedtek40 (Jul 8, 2005)

actually you're not supposed to do that when you are using an MSD ignition, you can damage the unit. There is a procedure in your MSD owners manual on how to check for spark. You can view or download the manual from their site if you don't have one.


_Modified by speedtek40 at 9:47 PM 7-24-2008_


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## mack73 (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (speedtek40)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speedtek40* »_actually you're not supposed to do that when you are using an MSD ignition, you can damage the unit. There is a procedure in your MSD owners manual on how to check for spark. You can view or download the manual from their site if you don't have one.

_Modified by speedtek40 at 9:47 PM 7-24-2008_

While the manual here: http://www.msdignition.com/pdf...s.pdf does specify a way to check the spark output from the unit, it doesn't explicitly say Not to test it the way I listed. I mean there isn't much difference in the spark occuring outside the head vs. inside. 
A test at the output from the MSD box will only get you so far. Testing at the sparkplug tells you the spark is getting all the way to the end. 
If you really want to get fancy, they make a "tool", well its a short sparkplug wire with a small window that will let you see the spark jump across a small gap in the wire.


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## speedtek40 (Jul 8, 2005)

true enough, I would suspect that they specify their method due to the higher voltages present when using an MSD setup. minimize the shock hazard.....


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (speedtek40)*

I do have spark at the plugs but I noticed my fuel pressure gauge reading between 2 and 4 psi today. I have a fuel pressure regulator but it doesn’t seem to have any effect on the fuel pressure at the gauge when I adjust the FPR. I'm going to need to swap out both to see if either is the culprit. How are you guys wiring your fuel pumps? Are you bypassing the fuel pump relay? 
I do have fuel in the float bowl so I should get the motor to run for at least a few minutes regardless of a fuel issue. I'm going to play around with the timing tomorrow but what I don’t get is the motor timing hasn't been touched since the last time the motor ran (6 months ago)


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## speedtek40 (Jul 8, 2005)

I just found the wire running to the original fuel pump and put a manual switch on it and wired it directly to 12V


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## Alderstorm (Jan 17, 2004)

*Re: (speedtek40)*

any updates on this?


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (Alderstorm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Alderstorm* »_any updates on this?

Got it running today. It was a combination of three problems. First I found that the # 4 spark plug wire was badly corroded, I didn't ground the head (only the block). Also I had previously moved my battery inside the truck and when I would crank the starter it would bog down. The length of wire was causing issues I guess. I moved the battery back to the bay and it helped.


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## vee_dubb_gti (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (Caddylicious)*

So its running good now?


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (vee_dubb_gti)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
ya had me worried my diagram was wrong. glad it's running. I'm off to build another MSD ignition for chromo's car weeee.


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## Caddylicious (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
ya had me worried my diagram was wrong. glad it's running. I'm off to build another MSD ignition for chromo's car weeee.

No your diagram was right on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Question, where did you buy your weber manifold?








I ****ed up today. I cracked the mount on one of my mikuni's. It flexed on the radiator hose. The mikuni's are to deep to properly fit in the rabbit engine bay. I'm thinking of going with Webers instead of the mikuni's.


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (Caddylicious)*

I got the manifold from Pierc manifolds plus the water neck. you have to call them.
The manifold is cash pretty ****tly, so you have to clean it up a bit. There is a pic of it a few pages back. plus the water neck


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

What are you guys doing about the loops on the 8980? I think I have an older unit and the instructions aren't totally the same.
I have an uncut white loop that comes out with the left set of wires. Then to the right of that I have 2 cut grey loops and one cut red loop. Is this alright?


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*

not sure what to tell you. I'd call up MSD and ask them. they have a pretty good tech support


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

What do you guys with the newer 8980 (in the diagram) cut? Obviously the red and blue are cut for 4 cyl operation.


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