# Passenger side window closing improperly



## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Passenger door closing improperly.*

I've just started noticing that ocassionally my passenger door (right hand door) shuts with the window on the outside of the seals rather than tucking up inside. I haven't done any testing yet to see when and why this occurs. All I can speculate is that the auto roll down function that is supposed to occur when the door opens to clear the seals is not rolling down all the way. Thus when I close the door the window can't slide under the seal but instead mates with the outside. It is an obvious malfunction due to the fact that it leaves a crevice into the car a few millimeters wide along the entire trailing edge of the window.
Before someone points out that this may be the cause of the window rolling down in excess of 4 inches at random, I would like to say that on my car the passenger window rolls down sometimes when I put the top up so I believe it to be a separate problem even if it may have the same outcome. However, this issue may explain why after going out to eat with a friend we returned to my car to see the passenger window rolled halfway down. I assure you the car was off with windows rolled up and car locked when we went inside. Perhaps the car realizes there is an issue with the door not closing properly and it takes a similar action.
Whatever the case may be I am taking my car in this afternoon if possible to explain the issue to my dealer and ask what VW intends to do about this. At the vary least I expect to hear that they will resolve this issue under warranty. My guess is that it will involve a fix for the ecu which rolls the window down more when you open and close the doors thereby clearing the seals fully before rolling back up.

*** UPDATE ***
Went by the dealership, big surprise they know nothing of the problem. I'm going to set up an appointment with a service tech this week I suppose.

*** UPDATE ***
I've done some testing and here are the results. After nearly 20 cycles of openning and closing the right and left hand doors I've come to the following conclusions. The LHD and the RHD do not operate the same when openinng the door. The LHD rolls down the window about 1/4 of an inch and thus clears the seals when openning and closing. The RHD rolls down less and thus catches the seal during every openning and closing. Usually the door closes just fine anyway but ocasionally the glass does not make it into the groove in the seal and that activates the pinch protection. The window then rolls down excessively. Finally, on very rare ocassions the window doesn't make it into the seal and doesn't immediately activate the pinch protection thus it closes on the outside of the door. Although I did not wait to see what the car did in this situation I will assume that later the car realizes the error and rolls down the window even when technically off and locked.

_Modified by aflaedge at 12:04 PM 9-23-2006_

_Modified by aflaedge at 12:04 PM 9-23-2006_


_Modified by aflaedge at 12:06 PM 9-23-2006_


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

Oh gees, I'm having visions of the New Beetle convertible when it was first released!! They too had this same problem, took two model years to come up with a fix.


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

Saw two Eos' today that had the pinch problem on the sonroof seal. One was on the passenger side and one on the driver's. 
_*"After The Fact" Archival Note from Michael:*
Long after this discussion started (it is mid February 2007 as I add this note), the solution has been found and well documented. To save anyone who comes along in the future from having to read through all 5 pages of this discussion, here is where you can find the solution -
For pinched roof seals, see this post: How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks 
*NOTE: Lubrication of the roof seals is the first step that must be taken before any other investigation or troubleshooting is attempted!*
For side windows that do not properly engage the roof seals, see this post: Phantom operation of Eos front windows
Michael_


_Modified by PanEuropean at 11:09 PM 2-26-2007_


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

*** UPDATE ***
I've started dialogue with VW service reps to see if this sort of thing is being discussed in the VW service tech circles. If anyone else has spoken to their service dept about this issue please keep us all posted. I am eager to find a solution. It was also mentioned in another thread that a similar problem had occured on several of the newest Golfs in Europe. Any insight into that as well as any solutions that came from it would be greatly appreciated.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

*** UPDATE ***
It happened again. This time in the rain








I'm going to the dealership today. I'll post what I can when I can. If anybody has had any experience with warranty claims and VW I would appreciate the advice. As of right now my tactic is going to be cool and collected however I anticipate a shift towards yelling and finger pointing.

*** UPDATE ***
I've spoken with VW's Customer Care Center and they have openned a Case file on it associated with my car. If anyone else is currently having this problem I suggest contacting your dealership and calling 1-800-822-8987. I don't know if you can ask for a specific call handler, but Mrs. Smith understands the issue. Besides the case file she sent off an email to the service manager at my dealership to expedite service. Furthermore, she will be contacting me today during or after the appointment to keep VWOA informed.


_Modified by aflaedge at 6:09 AM 9-29-2006_


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

*** UPDATE***
Well I took it in to the dealership and I think we are working towards an acceptable solution. I'm not sure if they really knew what was coming down the line since at first I got a bit of the runaround as they shifted me from one person to the next. So to each sales person, service rep, service mechanic, and anyone else who asked me why I was there or what they could do to help I explained the following set of events.
I told them about how on my own as well as through this community we had discovered a glitch that is both safety and security critical. I explained that through our own individual efforts no one had come to a solution but we were pretty sure what was causing it. I further recounted my own experience thus far and how my sales rep never got back in touch with me or how several attempts to contact/visit the service center were ignored. I was particularly clear on that point because in fact one service tech admitted to losing the original note he had taken when I had called them earlier in the week about the problem.
So the end result of a 2 and a half hour visit on friday was that VW was aware of this problem and that there may possibly be a fix which takes about two hours to do. So I will be taking my car in Monday morning and if they know whats good for them they will give me a loaner for the day. What I found particularly interesting was that after the dealership got off the phone with the VW Techline, I was told that VW had been waiting for me to come in because they had been following the VWvortex site. I guess I won't be asking around here anymore for advice on warranty questionable aftermarket mods.
For those of you who are holding back on getting this fixed. Don't wait, don't let them give you the run around. If they know what's best for them they will get it done now, because I won't settle for anything less than full warranty coverage for the replacement of my now mildew infested carpet, water damaged front seat, and anything else that comes up in the full inspection of my car.
Lemon Law ticker (1/3)


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

The service trip monday went fairly well. I came by at 8:00 and stayed till 10:30. It would have taken less time but I was using their computer for some of my search and rescue responsiblities. They did not get a chance to address my other issues with the potential water damage caused from the whole incident but it is in their system and I will be monitoring the performance of the passenger seat and the smell of the carpet over the next week or so.
The procedure was explained to me quickly but I think I have a fairly good grasp of what occured. Essentially, they repositioned the glass window and adjusted the angle at which it rolled up at. Furthermore I noticed the passenger window now rolls down farther than before on the initial unlocking of the car.
Unfortunately, I experienced the same problem again today. I haven't tested the full gambit of situations which previously caused the issue, but here is what I have observed. I took the top down and up once and there was no issue. My passenger exited the vehicle and closed the door, (harder than I would have liked). The window preceeded to roll down to the infamous 4 inches. I then rolled the window up and as soon as it mated with the seal it rolled down again. Finally, I got it to stay up on the second try. Later today I'll give it a few tests, I'll be curious to see if the force of closing the door is the key factor. Perhaps the frameless nature of the window is allowing it to bounce and loose contact with the sensors in the seal.
Anyway I left a message with the dealership along the lines of they will be getting my car for as long as it takes once they work out the details with VW and I will get a loaner. No more taking time off work.
Lemon Law ticker (1.5/3) I'm hoping today was just a fluke.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

Last night i openned and closed the door roughly 100 times and was unable to duplicate the roll down error. I'm not sure how my coworker was able to yesterday. There was about a 20 degree difference in outside air temp between noon and 8pm so I'll try testing it out again today to see if temperature was a factor.
I did however discover something a little peculuar. I'm not sure if this can be reproduced by the rest of you guys because it may have something to do with the fix that VW inacted on my car. When closing the door gently and slowly I've been able to repeatedly keep the window from rolling up that last 1/4 inch that it is supposed to roll up. If you remember correctly the window under normal operation rolls down a 1/4 inch when you first pull the handle to open the door. When you close the door it rolls back up that 1/4 inch to make sure the window is inside the top seal. An easy way to see this is to watch the two horizontal lines on the corner of the window appear and disappear during the whole operation. Unless this has always been the case, my guess is that whatever change VW made to my car it created a overload situation where the window would normally roll down those 4 inches but instead now stays stationary. I have to lock the car, unlock the car, open the door and close the door ocassionally more than once to get it to reset. I suppose going down a 1/4 of an inch and not rolling back up is better than going down 4 inches but it still leaves a crack into the car. I hope I can reproduce this for the VW tech next week. That's right, the regional tech guy should be at my dealership next week to work on the car all day. I'll let you guys know how it goes

P.S. Not many people have been posting about this problem anymore. Have you all found solutions? Can I get a head count of how many people have actually had this problem?


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

mine did it again yesterday. The ackward thing about mine is that we have never seen it do it, we come back to the car to find the lowered window. Yesterday the window went down wiithout the door being used all day. WEIRD !


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## liquid stereo (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

Keep posting the updates! I'm interested to see how the situation is resolved.
Also, keep your patience and good luck http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (ialonso)*

when it went down without the door even being used had you atleast put the top up recently?


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

Not in that entire day, and at least 75 miles.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (aflaedge)*

***Update***
It's late and i don't feel like going into my usual amount of detail but basically I took the car in last tuesday and they kept it for a few days with the VW Regional tech. Apparently they made some changes to the doors (make note of this) and washed my car. Then they called me up and I picked up the car after work on Thursday. I must say that I was pretty impressed with how clean my car was and how awesome the tires looked. However, they did a piss poor job on my doors. I will congratulate them on their ability to correct the original problem on the passenger door. This whole weekend I had people getting in and out of my car pretty regularly as I drove all over Virginia and not once did the passenger window roll down. Unfortunately they also decided to work on the driver side door which NEVER had a problem and I NEVER stated had a problem. Low and behold they added it to the work docket on this last visit and now my driver side door has been going down about once a day. I guess this technically doesn't count towards my lemon law tally cause they did fix the initial problem. Anyway they're getting another call tomorrow along the lines of "UN-FARK THIS" Seriously, I never said to fix the driver door and I don't appreciate their desire to premptively tinker with things without full disclosure prior to services rendered.
P.S. I don't know why the LH window is now screwed up. My initial observation is that it rolls down more than it used to and now rolls up slightly less than before but why it might be catching on the seals is a mystery. Perhaps tomorrow I'll have a better idea.


_Modified by aflaedge at 10:21 PM 10-16-2006_


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## timetrip (Oct 21, 2006)

*Re: (aflaedge)*

My EOS used to have a problem with the driver side window. It would come down very often when I would close the door. I took it to the dealer and they fixed it. They explained when the door is shut, you should only see the bottom line of the pairs of lines that are on the window. When I initally brought the car in, both lines were disappearing under the seal on BOTH doors... oops!
I don't think that this is your specific problem, but I thought you might want to check the lines anyway, as I hadn't read about them on this forum yet.
EDIT: just wanted to bring up another point. If your window rolls down upon close because of the pinch protection, if you try to close it again within 5 seconds, it will not use pinch protection. This would probably explain why you could get it to stay closed on successive attempts. I always had to be real quick on my keys when leaving the car before the fixed it










_Modified by timetrip at 9:34 PM 10-20-2006_


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## andrewLI (Sep 21, 2006)

*LEAKS*

The car has been leaking since the day I got it. Drivers side at the A-pillar. Same problem - never fixed.
I have owned the car approximately 60 days. The car has been in to VW more than three times for this problem. I have been without the car for a total of 24 days now and counting. It is back for the fourth time.
A word of caution. Take a good look at the seals if you consider this car. Many are dry and chaulky. Brought it to a different dealer this time too.
We are nearing the end with this company. They promise it will be fixed this time. Yeah right. I also have to wait for the VW "Engineer" to come to town each time. They won't let the regular union service tech. touch the car. What good faith they have in these gentlemen.
The worst and obviously most disappointing car purchase ever. All the excitement is gone.
Do your homework.


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (andrewLI)*

I'm not sure what your exact problems have been, but we got a bunch of rain here this weekend, and I noticed a few drops of water on the driver's A pillar on my car. After some scrutiny, it was coming from outside the car, rolling down the roof and seal when the door was opened, and traveling via the joint in the A pillar to the low spot, about in the middle of the pillar, before falling on my knee. At least in my car, though at first glance it seemed to be coming from the pillar, it actually wasn't.
I don't mean to discount your troubles, I've had more than my share of poor customer service from VW with this car as well, but it's something to look at anyway.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (andrewLI)*

3 times for the same problem? Lemon law it. Get your money back and buy something else. 
I had a problem that I went in to the dealership for about 2 or three times and I was without my car for about 6 days total but it's been problem free for weeks now that a VW engineer took a crack at it.
I guess the point is that you can stick with it and still have an amazing car or you can back out under federal and state lemon laws. Your call.


_Modified by aflaedge at 9:55 PM 11-15-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: LEAKS (aflaedge)*

*Archival Note:* I've merged (appended) this new post of Andrew's onto the end of an existing post that Chris started about the same subject, so as to keep all the related information together.
Michael


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (aflaedge)*

Aflaedge,
I have the same problem you had. The driver's side is fine (rolls down 1/4 in so the window clears the roof seal when I close the door). 
The passenger side, however, rolls down 1/8 in or less, and hits the roof seal. When the passenger door is open and I can lightly push down the window by hand, and it rolls down an additional 1/8 in (total 1/4 in), so it can clear the roof seal when I close the door. I think the auto roll down feature is not rolling the window down enough - but I don't know why.
Do you know what's causing this? 
And any suggestions for my dealer in Honolulu to fix the problem. Would prefer not to have to re-invent the wheel and allow them to do trial and error fix attempts.
WY


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: LEAKS (wy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wy* »_And any suggestions for my dealer in Honolulu to fix the problem. 

Best suggestion I can offer is that your VW tech calls the Eos technical support team at VW of America headquarters in Auburn Hills, Michigan. I am 110% sure that the tech support team has encountered this issue before, and will be able to provide exact guidance to resolve it.
Michael


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (PanEuropean)*

Well still happening to us ,, 3 days in the shop ,,, put some special grease on the rubber















They want to fit a new seal now














as you all know who have this prob it is so clear that the window is not level , drops ok at the back edge just the front ,,, same side door [drivers for us







]


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

Tell those guys to call their revolutionary rivals in the USofA for the solution prescribed by the VWoA Techline. One two hour fix is all you need and it won't cost you a dollar... er 0.52778804 pounds.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

David:
While I was looking at an Eos in Switzerland earlier today, I noticed two campaign stickers in the trunk of the car. In Europe, 'campaigns' are more or less the same as what Technical Bulletins (TBs) are in the North American market - they are notes sent out advising the dealership service staff about actions that can be taken to improve the quality of the product.
You might want to note the 4 character numbers written on the stickers below, and inquire at your dealership if these campaigns apply to your vehicle, and if so, if they have been carried out. Note that it is normal that changes are embodied into the new car build process at the same time that campaigns are issued, so, if the campaign was issued the same week that the factory was building Eos serial number 9999, then the campaign likely would not apply to any Eos with a serial number of 10,000 or higher. So, if your dealer says "that campaign does not apply to your car", you can reasonably assume that he or she is telling you the truth. The dealers are reimbursed by VW for carrying out the campaign work, which means that they are generally quite happy to do it.
Michael
*Campaign Stickers - European Market Only*


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael
Thanks for the numbers ,,, will mention when we go again soon !!
Here is a pic ,not good need daylight ,, back edge of the door just opened good 1/2" gap. 








Front edge door open is touching the rubber 








The other window opens 3/8" equal all the way across
Will get some better pics as soon i can








David


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

David, thanks for the pics. Even though they are not the greatest quality pics, they illustrate exactly what the problem is, namely that the window is not adjusted evenly from front to back.
My guess (guess!) is that should be a pretty easy problem to fix... I don't think the mechanics of an Eos window are much different than the mechanics of any other VW window, despite the fancy roof.
Let us know what the outcome is once you get an outcome.
Thanks again,
Michael


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## passat06boi (Feb 1, 2006)

So VW bought back my B6...and I got a 2007 EOS...
They bought that back because it was a Lemon..33 days...multiple fixes for same problems...
AND NOW... I love my new car...not a problem..
Then...day 5...the CD player get's all scratchy...then fixes itself...
Then...3 days ago...Window Gremlins...
My passenger side door, when not shut hard enough, the window goes up to meet the seal but is outside the seal...and it activates the pinch protection....ARGHH
Can we VAG-COM off the pinch protection?? If we do, will that disable the windows coming down the 1/8 inch when we unlock and open the doors??


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## owr084 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (passat06boi)*

I noticed you named your Passat "Damien." So, have you decided on a name for the Eos yet? wn the 1/8 inch when we unlock and open the doors??
















_Quote, originally posted by *passat06boi* »_So VW bought back my B6...and I got a 2007 EOS...
They bought that back because it was a Lemon..33 days...multiple fixes for same problems...
AND NOW... I love my new car...not a problem..
Then...day 5...the CD player get's all scratchy...then fixes itself...
Then...3 days ago...Window Gremlins...
My passenger side door, when not shut hard enough, the window goes up to meet the seal but is outside the seal...and it activates the pinch protection....ARGHH
Can we VAG-COM off the pinch protection?? If we do, will that disable the windows coming do 



_Modified by owr084 at 7:58 PM 11-21-2006_


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## passat06boi (Feb 1, 2006)

I was thinking GIZMO..
The nice Gremlin from the film "Gremlins"
Cute as a button..but still has a problem or two... (he overeats)...


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

davidg,
Thanks for the photos - they illustrate my car's problem exactly. Only the passenger door window is faulty - the rear part of the window rolls down sufficiently when opening the door, however the front part of the same window does not roll down enough. It appears as though the window is rolling down in a "tilted" fashion, with more roll down towards the rear edge of the window while not pulling down the front part of the window enough. I can still close the passenger door, but it hits the rubber seal each time - and I think it will cause the rubber seal to fall out of place or become damaged prematurely.
Based on the appearance and close similarity of the problem, this must be a common problem for a certain number of vin #s.
I have an appt for the dealer to work on it this Tuesday. Will let you know how it goes.


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (wy)*

Hope this is a better pic,,, with the rubber trapped

























Dealer still wants to change the seal ,, will book it in next week ,,,,, HOW will a new seal fix this ,,, as you say wy ,,, NEEDS THE WINDOW LEVELING















_Modified by davidg at 8:51 AM 11-25-2006_


_Modified by davidg at 11:05 AM 11-25-2006_


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

davidg and wy,
Check out the 'pinch protection, window gremlins" thread on this forum. There is a post there from davidpg that identifies a dealership in Montreal, Quebec, Canada that has figured out the window adjustments required to fix the problem.
I'm sure your local dealership(s) could contact Montreal and discuss the fix with their techs.








Kevin


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (just4fun)*

Hi Kevin
I have printed out some pages from here and given to them , told them about this great forum ,,, but they dont know of any uk problems















Have to say the dealer has been great , it is "vw uk" that they have contacted that dont want to know
















Dave


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (just4fun)*

just4fun,
Thanks. I looked at that thread and it appears they had a window alignment problem (x-y axis), too. Will ask my dealer to contact VWoA tech and if they don't know, then to call the Quebec dealer.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (wy)*

Good luck with getting it resolved, let us know how it works out.
Kevin


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: LEAKS (just4fun)*

Just a note to say thanks to everyone, and especially to David, Kevin, and Wy, for contributing all of the excellent factual information to this post. It is just fantastic to have the pictures, because they make it clear exactly what the problem is. 
I am pretty sure that if we continue to gather information like this, we will be able to confer "informally" (translation = off the record) with our forum friends at VW, and get some pretty good advice as to what is causing the problem and how to fix the problem correctly on the very first attempt.
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed,
Michael


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. 1ST WARRANTY ATTEMPT*

DAY 1 WARRANTY SERVICE for:
(1) passenger window problem, (2) mpg reading in MFD too low, and (3) clicking sound of front driver's side wheel.
I dropped off my EOS for my 8am appointment at my local dealership and explained the problems in detail.
(1) Passenger Window not rolling down enough each time I open the door. As a result the window is hitting the roof seal every time I close the door. I explained that my big concern is that when the window hits the seal and rests outside the seal (as opposed to inside the seal), the auto pinch protection is triggered and the window rolls down a few inches automatically after I walk away from the vehicle. Not only does this allow thieves to easily enter my vehicle with the window rolled down, but it allows rain to enter the car (even if the window is rolled up) because of the improper placement of the window and seal. I even printed out all the posts in this forum regarding this issue and highlight in yellow the issue - and gave the service dept the printout.
DEALER RESPONSE: "Could not verify problem. Door/window closing properly." I spoke with the service technician over the phone prior to picking up the car and he told me the window was NOT hitting the seal, and no fix is necessary. I arrive at the dealership 2 hours later and see that the window IS, in fact, hitting the seal. I ask the same technician to stand next to me to show him in person what I mean. He suddenly acknowledges that the window IS hitting the seal, however, he admits the dealership does not know how to fix the problem since it is a new vehicle.
(2) I explained that ever since I had a complete battery failure at 73 miles - I believe my mpg reading in the MFD is wrong. My daily commute to/from work averages 10-12 mpg driving very conservatively.
DEALER RESPONSE: "Test drove the vehicle and could not verify the problem." I spoke with the service technician and he said they did not find a problem with the reading during their test drive - that the vehicle showed an average of 14-15 mpg in 3 miles of driving. I responded that 14-15 mpg is not what this vehicle is supposed to get - it's rated 23 to 32. He said they performed 2 or 3 service bulletin updates and that it may have solved the problem. He suggested I drive the car my normal route and let him know how it goes.
(3) I explained that from the first day I owned the vehicle, I noticed a "clicking" sound in the front driver's side wheel when the windows are rolled down. It sounded like a small pebble/rock in the tire and the dealer said it may just go away by itself. After 1.5 months, the sound is still there and I only hear it when I'm driving over 30 mph in a straight line. I don't think the tire is making the noise because the noise goes away when I brake and comes back when I'm not braking (coasting or pressing the gas).
DEALER RESPONSE: Could not hear the "clicking" sound during test drive and could not verify the problem. I talked to the service technician and he said they could not hear the sound. I asked him if he rolled the windows down, and he said no. DUH!!! I already explained that I hear the sound with the top down or windows rolled down, but nobody apparently thought to roll down the windows during the test drive.
So one whole day at the service department and NOTHING was fixed because the service department "could not verify the problems."
To add to my dissapointment, I inspect the car and notice that sometime during the day - when the service department had my vehicle (and perhaps during the test drive) a 1 cm tear in the leather panel of the driver side door appeared. It looks like the seat belt buckle or some other sharp object brushed up against the leather door panel and made a cut. I asked the service technician to look at the tear - and it just happened that the service manager walked by and I showed him the tear. 
The service manager was very apologetic and said he would fix the tear. I told him that none of the repairs were performed on my car and he offered to go on a test drive with me to check the mpg problem and "clicking" noise. He acknowledged the mpg reading being low, but suggested I do an actual test by filling up my gas tank till it tops off, resetting the trip odometer to "zero" and measuring exactly how many miles I've gone when I need to fill up again (and measure the gallons to top off the tank). Since I zeroed my trip odometer the last time I topped off the gas tank, I just needed to refill my tank and measure how many gallons I used in 69.9 mi. I filled my tank and learned that I used 4.5 gal. This means I actually got 15.5 mpg in the last 69.9 mi of normal driving (city and highway). This is awfully low and probably explains why my MFD mpg reading is often so low - it's because my engine is actually burning a lot of fuel - much more than the "23 to 32 mpg" on the sticker of the new car. As for the clicking noise, there was so much traffic that we couldn't get the vehicle over 30 mph to check if the noise still exists. On my drive home though - on the highway at 40 mph, the noise came back!
Anyway, the service manager asked me to bring the car in again tomorrow to see if he could fix my 3 problems... Will let you know how DAY 2 goes.
If anyone knows whether there is a technical reference # of the window problem fix at VWoA, please let me know. Trying not re-invent the wheel here. 
Thanks!


_Modified by wy at 1:42 AM 11-29-2006_


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. 1ST WARRANTY ATTEMPT (wy)*

Some photos to illustrate my window problem:
BEFORE warranty service (top right side of window hits the roof seal).








AFTER warranty service (NO CHANGE top right side of window still hits roof seal).








AFTER warranty service, I also get a new tear in the leather panel of my door!!!


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. 1ST WARRANTY ATTEMPT (wy)*

I'm glad somebody finally got some clear pictures of what i was talking about with the window closing on top of the seal. I am in total agreement with you regarding the impact of the window seal problem and can personally attest to the horrors of finding water in the car due to the malfunction. The fact that your dealership doesn't know what to do about it is to be expected but it is not the end of the line. VW dealers have access to the VW Techline and regional quality management technicians. Bring your car in again and ask them to persue these resources. Hopefully, your dealership will receive the same help that mine did. On a side note be sure to explain that you do not wish any work to be done to the Left hand window as the initial fix invovled both and required a second visit to correct. My window now squeaks a bit every time I roll it up or down because of these extra fixes.
I hope some day we'll be able to determine if this was an over all engineering flaw, a batch related flaw, or just some assembly worker screwing up a couple times.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. 1ST WARRANTY ATTEMPT (wy)*

Hello Wy:
Thanks a lot for posting the photos, they really help illustrate the problem you are encountering. This will make it much easier for others who are having window difficulty to compare and see if they are encountering the same problem.
I have attached some photos of a 'trouble-free' Eos roof below, just so we have something to compare to. This is the Eos demonstrator car at my Swiss dealer.
Michael
*Reference Photos - Trouble-free Eos *


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. 1ST WARRANTY ATTEMPT (PanEuropean)*

This is the New Beetle convertible experience all over again. For the first 2 model years there were tons of complaints about window issues just like this. Ultimately, I don't think VW ever really resolved the problem but instead put a band-aid in place. Now, on the '05 and up NBCs, the windows drop down when you use the remote to unlock the car instead of waiting for someone to actually open the door.


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (aflaedge)*

Aflaedge,
Do you know WHO at VWoA Techline knows the fix to the passenger window problem. My local dealer says they called to see if there was a fix, but nobody at Techline knows about this problem. Hence, my dealer still doesn't know how to fix the problem - they are trying to fix it by making adjustments to the "comfort control" settings.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (wy)*

I think somewhere on this forum, perhaps it was another thread about this issue I posted the contact info for my dealership. They seem to have gotten it all figured out since they did the last adjustment themselves. Try giving them a call or tell your dealership to call them. Here's the link to their site http://richvw.brownscar.com/
Do some searching though and you'll find my huge post about what exactly VW dealerships have available in terms of outside help.


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly.*

DAY 2 WARRANTY SERVICE for 
(1) passenger window problem, (2) mpg reading in MFD too low, and (3) clicking sound of front driver's side wheel.
I dropped off my vehicle at the dealership this morning for the 2nd time because the service people closed out the service after the 1st day, saying that they "could not verify the problems" after their examination.
I spoke with the service manager and he said they would try again. So I left my car all day at the dealer to get serviced. At the end of Day 2, the service technician said (1) they were not able to fix the passenger window problem - although they now acknowledge there's a problem. They said they would like to try again tomorrow.; (2) They said they ran a diagnostic tool and performed updates to the computer, and that I would have to continue to monitor my mpg to see if it's still showing low readings.; (3) they said they were able to fix the clicking sound problem with the front driver's side wheel - that something in the wheel well was loose causing improper flapping, thereby causing the noise. I didn't check for the noise on my way home since it was raining lightly and couldn't roll down the windows to listen.
When I picked up my car, there was no service order printout to sign - so I didn't have anything from the service department that tells me what, specifically, they did to my car. The receptionist just handed me my keys and said she had no paperwork for me. I thought it was a bit strange not receiving a print out.
So at the end of DAY 2, the window problem still needs to be fixed and I will need to verify that the other 2 problems were fixed properly over the next few days.
It seems my dealer may be making some progress. HOWEVER, I'm very disappointed in the lack of care they are taking when test driving the vehicle. YESTERDAY, I noticed a small tear in the leather of the driver's door panel (which the dealer immediately agreed to fix). TODAY, when I picked up my car at 6pm (the service dept had already closed at 5pm) I noticed that whoever drove my car put a noticeable scratch into the smooth leather surface of my steering wheel! I suspect that the person was wearing a ring and that the ring had brushed hard against the steering wheel surface. This is a real bummer for me since the steering wheel is my favorite part of the car - I love that smooth feeling of the leather steering wheel - especially of a brand new car. Now I feel a scratched surface on the top of the steering wheel as I glide my hands over the surface. ALSO whoever entered my car had really dirty shoes and didn't take any care in getting in or out of the car - the plastic surfaces are scuffed with black marks and the brand new carpet I've been meticulous about keeping absolutely spotless (I put a plastic floor mat on top) has been stepped on with black oil shoes (in the only area of the floor exposed - where the plastic floor mat doesn't cover). The car was absolutely clean before it went in for service - spotless at 320 miles on the odometer without a scratch or dent on the outside and not an imperfection or dirty spot in the inside. In fact it was just detailed, waxed, vacuumed, and wiped with leather care products throughout the day before it went in. I LOVE this car - and I've been very good about keeping the new car absolutely clean inside and out. But after 2 days at the service department, the interior is no longer clean and without imperfections. 
Is it normal for a new car that goes in for warranty service to come out in a worse condition than when it went in?
I'm attaching photos to document what I mean. I called my salesman on his cell phone tonight and he said he would work on resolving all these issues with the service dept tomorrow morning. So far, my dealership service dept experience has not been all that great.
Passenger window still not fixed on Day 2.








Smooth steering wheel surface scratched!!! (the photo does show too much but you can really feel the scratch with your hand)








My once spotless interior is soiled by a service technician's dirty shoes!









_Modified by wy at 12:23 AM 11-30-2006_

_Modified by wy at 12:23 AM 11-30-2006_

_Modified by wy at 12:26 AM 11-30-2006_


_Modified by wy at 12:27 AM 11-30-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (wy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wy* »_... I noticed that whoever drove my car put a noticeable scratch into the smooth leather surface of my steering wheel! I suspect that the person was wearing a ring and that the ring had brushed hard against the steering wheel surface. This is a real bummer for me since the steering wheel is my favorite part of the car - I love that smooth feeling of the leather steering wheel - especially of a brand new car. Now I feel a scratched surface on the top of the steering wheel as I glide my hands over the surface... 

Wy:
Don't sweat that one. The scuff will go away after about an hour's driving. I also have a soft leather steering wheel in my Phaeton - and my wife wears rings. Whenever she has been using the car for a while, the steering wheel has scuffs on it that look awful... however, after I have used it for a while, all the scuffs magically disappear on their own, simply from me putting my hands on top of the scuff marks as I handle the steering wheel. I don't wear any rings.
I do agree that the dirty carpet is disappointing, but that is an easy problem to fix. The same morning that I picked up my new Phaeton, I went back into the service area (the workshop) of my VW dealership to say hello to some of the staff, and walked through a puddle of transmission fluid on the floor without noticing it. After the socializing, I got into my brand new car (less than two miles on the clock) and drove home. When I got out... you guessed it, a huge oily mess right on the floormat and carpet. That resulted in the following post that I made in the Phaeton forum: How to clean Sun Beige carpet (and interiors).
You can clean the carpets yourself (probably best that way, since you are obviously a perfectionist), or you can ask your dealer to clean them for you... I am sure the dealership will be willing to correct their error if you draw it to their attention.
Michael


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Thanks. My dealer told me they can get the oil stains out. I'll believe it when I see it. They also told me they would take care of the tear in the leather (by taking it to a specialty leather upholstery shop) and the scratch on the steering wheel (I don't know how they are going to do this - my salesman said they might replace the whole steering wheel if they have to). Unfortunately, my Eos must stay overnight at the dealership - and tomorrow makes DAY 4 I'm without my car. I think I'm making monthly payments equivalent to $26 per day on the purchase price of the car - VW should reimburse me for each day I'm without my car. Especially since it is a brand new car that went in with only 300 mi. They don't provide a loaner car and I have to pay for my own alternate transportation. On top of that, the are expending the fuel I paid for to do their road tests of my car.
Anyway - it appears that my dealer finally has a fix planned for my window problem. I'm told it involves replacing the regulator that controls the window. However, it's on backorder and will take a week or two to obtain. 
So now, the only reason my car is still at the dealership is not to address warranty problems, it is to fix the tear in the leather door panel, the scratch on the steering wheel, and the new oil stains in the interior - all of which were caused by my dealer while they had custody of my car!


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (wy)*

Wow, they don't do loaners for cars in the shop over 24 hours? That sucks. The whole gas thing is pretty lame too. New regulator huh? Lemmie know if that does the trick.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aflaedge* »_Wow, they don't do loaners for cars in the shop over 24 hours? That sucks...

In the United States, VW cannot force the dealerships (who are independent businesses) to provide loaner cars. This is because of legislation governing 'franchisee's rights' that exists in America.
In other countries, VW has a bit more muscle over the dealerships. Some dealerships, who are more customer oriented, provide loaner cars to just about everyone. For example, at the VW dealer I use in Canada (Volkswagen Richmond Hill), there are about a dozen 'service loaner' cars in the fleet, ranging from Golfs to Phaetons. The service department gives customers a free loaner upon request - even if it is just for a 'drop it off in the morning, pick it up in the evening' oil change. But, my dealership is a family owned dealership that takes a very long term view of building customer relationships... they see provision of complimentary service loaners as part of a long term strategy for retaining happy customers who will buy more VWs in the future, not as an additional expense on this month's P & L statement for the service department.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (wy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wy* »_My dealer told me they can get the oil stains out. I'll believe it when I see it. 

Wy:
It's not rocket science to clean a friggin' carpet...







...so don't worry too much about that. Sometimes, though, it is less stressful all around to look after some of these things yourself, especially if you have perfectionist tendancies. In other words, if you have doubt in the ability of your dealer to clean the carpet to your satisfaction, rather than prolonging your suffering by asking them to do it, just clean the thing yourself and have done with it.
Michael


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Sometimes, though, it is less stressful all around to look after some of these things yourself, especially if you have perfectionist tendancies. In other words, if you have doubt in the ability of your dealer to clean the carpet to your satisfaction, rather than prolonging your suffering by asking them to do it, just clean the thing yourself and

...
Send them the bill!







Better yet, Rent a car and buy fuel, keep the receipts and subit it at the end of service. Back charging is a common practice in most industries. Legality might be an issue, but civil courts these days seem to be ruling in favor of the victims. On second thought perhaps just leaving it at the dealership would be less stressfull. Once the warranty expenses start piling up I'm sure they'll shape up.


_Modified by aflaedge at 10:10 AM 12-1-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aflaedge* »_...in favor of the *victims*. 

What is this 'victim' crap? If the carpet is dirty, and it bothers you, you have two options:
*1)* Clean the friggin' thing yourself - takes 20 minutes, cost is squat-all unless you want to account for a squirt of dish detergent, or;
*2)* Ask the dealership to clean it for you, which I am sure they will do.
Let's keep this forum on track, it is a place for car enthusiasts to discuss common interests and come up with solutions for problems. It's not a place to hold a 'pity party'. The idea of even thinking about court action over a dirty carpet is utterly ridiculous. 
Michael


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (PanEuropean)*

I'm just being supportive of his legitimate claims of poor service with regards to the window issue and the associated issues brought up in his post. My ridiculous, over the top, suggestion of suing for an oil stain and a couple days of discomfort was simply a joke pertaining to the "American" reaction that every problem should be solved in civil court. However, telling him in so many words to clean up somebody else's mess seems a bit negative in its own right. Not to mention that on VW's service site it clearly states that if he were leasing his car he would be "charged for any holes, tears, burns or stains to upholstery, carpet, or interior damage" Ofcourse it does add the exception that you won't get charged if you can vacuum it up. Anyway we probably should start a thread devoted to The good, the bad, and the ugly dealerships with regards to the EOS, instead of hijacking other threads. That way we as car enthusiasts can actively track where to buy the cars we love and who will take care of them they way we do. I think somewhere on here there is a thread about an award or recognition provided by VW to single out quality dealerships with excellent sales, finance, and service. Perhaps as moderator you could link that kind of post to the table of contents so that future owners can easly find out who we feel are best equiped to service our vehicles.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (aflaedge)*

Hi Chris:
I agree very much with your suggestion to start a thread to recognize good dealerships. We have had such a thread running in the Phaeton forum for over two years now, and it has proven to be very useful to everyone. Here’s the link:  Phaeton dealers that we (Phaeton owners) recommend .
I want to very clearly lay my cards out on the table about the whole ‘victim’ issue, which you refer to as _‘an American reaction that every problem should be solved in civil court'_. I have very strong feelings about this.
We – Eos forum members – are automotive enthusiasts. We come here for different reasons, sometimes to gather information, sometimes to document a problem, discover a solution, and get the problem solved, and most often just for the fun of it, because the forum is a relaxing, pleasant, entertaining place to spend time with others who have common interests. 
Generally, the car is something we enjoy owning, enjoy modifying, and enjoy talking about. We share new information with each other and pass ideas back and forth. Sometimes, we come across problems – such as the window fit problem, or the hood fit problem – and we can then pool our resources, our talents, our individual skills and experiences, and our energy together to find out what the best fix for the problem is. The benefit of doing this (besides the intrinsic challenge of figuring out how to solve the problem) is that we can then document fixes for problems here on the forum, put them in the table of contents, and if a new owner comes along later and says “Hey, I have such-and-such a problem”, we can say “No sweat, here’s where to go to find out how to fix it fast and put it behind you”.
Unfortunately, sometimes certain people have a different objective when it comes to problems. They aren’t primarily interested in fixing their problem and getting on with their life, they are focused on complaining about their problem. This can be for any number of reasons – maybe they want to put pressure on the manufacturer to get a buy-back, maybe they think they can influence their dealer by complaining in public, or maybe they want to ‘get even’ with someone for a real or perceived injustice by using this forum as a soapbox. Sadly, they are even people in this world who simply like to complain and solicit pity. They are unfortunate. You have probably met such folks at work – always telling you about their problems – family, medical, financial, or otherwise - and the injustices that have been done to them, and how miserable they are. We’ve all heard the phrase ‘misery loves company’, however, we also all know that none of us like hearing the constant whining and complaining of the miserable person.
If a problem with the vehicle is found, let’s document the problem, gather as much information as we can, and pool our collective resources (intellectual, technical, and work-related) to find a solution to the problem as promptly and efficiently as we can. Then, let’s move on and tackle something else interesting – a retrofit, a coding tweak, organizing a get-together, whatever. In other words, let’s keep the forum a pleasant and interesting place to be.
I don’t want to take a shot at Wy, and what I am about to say is not intended to be a shot, but hey, he listed three problems in his post, I provided solutions for two of them, and in his next reply, he didn’t even acknowledge the solutions. In his next reply, his interest was not focused on getting his problem fixed, his interest was elsewhere. Well, let’s be real here: Who the heck is interested in hearing someone repeatedly post their litany of woes with some business - in this case in Hawaii – that none of us will likely every have any contact with during our lifetimes?
I’ll start a thread now entitled  Eos dealers that we (Eos owners) recommend. Let’s keep it focused on businesses that provide good service, because that’s what all of us are interested in finding. If you are having difficulties with a dealer and want to make a post to the effect of ‘How do I resolve a problem with this dealership’ – sure, by all means, make new post about it. But stay focused on the solutions, not on complaining. No-one, absolutely no-one, likes to read someone else’s detailed litany about their misery.
Michael


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## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (PanEuropean)*

I would have to concur on the issue of focusing on the issues at hand and not wandering off topic. I think this thread has been a great discussion of the window pinch issue as well as a general discussion of the problems many dealers are facing with new vehicle releases, whether they are New Beetle, Phaeton or the new (and sexy) Eos.
I think that the various dealers on this thread are inching toward a solution. While this can be frustrating for those of you that are forging the path of Eos ownership and first-year issues, it is good to read that hear & there that progress is being made. As input continues to pour into Auburn Hills, the Eos Customer Care team and the Techline staff will become more and more capable in solving the issues put before them by yourselves and the dozens of other Eos owners that haven't found this great forum yet.
One more comment and I'll get of my box. There is a website called 1.8t.org that is a well-kept secret for rating dealerships across the US and Canada. Potential buyers and those seeking good service are well-served to check in and review the franchises in their area.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (OEMpl.us)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OEMpl.us* »_
One more comment and I'll get of my box. There is a website called 1.8t.org that is a well-kept secret for rating dealerships across the US and Canada. Potential buyers and those seeking good service are well-served to check in and review the franchises in their area.

thanks for posting this link. Unfortunately my local dealership is not yet listed, but after I take delivery of my EOS I'll be sure to add them to the list to get the ball rolling.
Kevin


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (just4fun)*

Just some food for thought...
It's apparent that dealers do not yet know how to fix this particular window issue. The dealers don't know because VW doesn't yet know. This is probably because they're not sure what exactly is even causing the problem yet. Dealer are doing what they can to attempt to fix the problem. Would we rather they just turn us away completely, stating that there is no fix yet? Or, would we rather them at least attempt to fix it with the possibility that it might get corrected?


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I really appreciate all the contributions you provide to this forum. It is really helpful for a lot of us. And I realize you are not trying "to take a shot" at my posts. However, your description of my posts are incorrect. If you read my posts, you will see that I described 3 warranty problems AND 3 separate issues caused by my dealer while my car was in their possession. While you did provide potential solutions to 2 issues caused by my dealer, I still have the original 3 warranty problems.
Please take the time to understand one's concerns before assuming they are simply badmouthing a dealer. My intent is not to bad mouth my dealer. I simply want solutions to my 3 warranty problems: (1) window problem; (2) mpg problem; (3) clicking sound on my driver's front wheel problem. These 3 problems are what I took my vehicle in for, and as far as I know, these three problem still exist! 
My car has been at my dealer's service department for 4 consecutive days now and they have not shown me that they fixed any of the 3 problems. My window problem is still there (I assume until they are able to replace the regulator), my mpg problem is still there (still shows 10-15 mpg avg city/hwy - this is not just 2 or 3 mpg off what's stated for the vehicle, it is less than half!), and although they told me they fixed the clicking noise problem, the last time I drove the car it still had the problem. If you could provide solutions to any of these 3 warranty problems, I would be very grateful. 
The other 3 issues (not warranty problems) I mentioned dealing with (1) tear in the leather on my door, (2) the scratch on steering wheel, and (3) oiled carpets are simply issues caused by my dealer while they had my car in their possession for the first 2 days. These are clearly not warranty problems - and, of course, I can clean the oiled carpets by myself - I never said I couldn't. But why should I? I didn't create the problem. In fact, I had spent 3 hours the day before I took the car to my dealer detailing the car - why should I spend more time cleaning up their mess? I only mentioned these dealer-created issues because I thought it was unusual for a dealer to cause the car to be in a worse condition than when it went in. If you had a new car with only 300 miles, took it in for warranty service and the dealer caused 3 new problems that you never had in the first place, I'm sure you'd be upset, too.
Aside from DAY 1 when the dealer simply returned my car stating that they could not "verify the 3 warranty problems" with my car, they have since been very good about doing what they can to fix my warranty issues (they just don't have a proven fix yet or are waiting for a part to do the fix) - and for that I'm very happy. 
However, what I'm not happy about is the fact that my car has to stay at the dealer for 5 additional days in order for them to fix the problems THEY caused. A specialty shop must fix the tear in the leather on my door and the deep scratch on my steering wheel. Meanwhile, I've been without a replacement vehicle for the first 3 days - until I made enough noise and finally got my dealer to agree to provide me with a rental car at least while my car is in their possession. My dealer and VW of America has not provided me with any compensation for my loss of vehicle for the past week or my inconvenience - whether it's the very first day you own the vehicle or its 3 years and 11 months you own the vehicle, they seem to treat everyone the same. Although I LOVE my new car, my experience with VW over the past week has been disappointing. 
At the earliest, I get my new car back after 7 days in the shop (without any warranty issues fixed), but for now they have not given me a definite date - PLUS they require an additional day or two to get my warranty issues fixed after parts arrive or solution is known. Meanwhile, I'm paying the bank each day I continue to own the vehicle - a vehicle that's sitting in the shop indefinitely.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (wy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wy* »_whether it's the very first day you own the vehicle or its 3 years and 11 months you own the vehicle, they seem to treat everyone the same.

That's fantastic news! I'm glad that your dealer is not sloughing off those nearing the end of their warranties because they're going to cease to be a "problem" and is giving everyone kid-glove treatment.
Wy, your concerns are very valid -- both those of the car & those generated after the fact by the dealership. I want to weigh in with my own $0.02.
(1) As a service advisor, nobody wants to see your car repaired properly, expediently and completely more than I do. I assure you I take no joy in coming back and saying, "We can't get it to do it." I believe you when you tell me your vehicle is doing something -- however, if it's an intermittent issue, diagnosis may be difficult if the concern isn't presenting itself. Additionally, my techs are just as disappointed as you are when we find out that the work we did on your vehicle didn't completely fix the problem.
(2) Things happen. Period. The end. I would never intentionally damage the vehicle of another nor would any of my staff that I'm aware of. And, I might not know about it. I don't attach myself to the vehicle throughout the process. That the dealer is apologetic and willing to make things right is what's important.
(3) My experiences in the Phaeton Forum are what attracted me back to Vortex as an active participant. When I had my GLI back in '02, I had a crack at Vortex. All I saw was ankle-biting and I exited. As a result of the Phaeton's development and introduction in the NAR, I have not only enjoyed imparting as much knowledge as possible in the Forum, I have forged some great friendships through Vortex. I can only hope that the Eos forum evolves in the same manner.
(4) If there's someone more fastidious than Michael with respect to car care, I'd like to meet them.







Having spent much time in Michael's car, both as a passenger and as a conductor, I not only feel an overwhelming compunction to remove my shoes before entering his car, I have never parked so far away from my intended destination in order to ensure nobody comes within 500 feet of the vehicle in my life. Nobody is ever going to do as good a job as you will on your own vehicle. And I can't tell you how sick I was to see I'd left my own imprint on his born-again virgin floormats after my last jaunt to Montreal. So, his recommending you just do it yourself isn't intended to allow the dealership to shirk any responsibility -- it's just a reminder that sanity is more important than principle.
HTH and, as always, remember: YMMV.










_Modified by chrisj428 at 12:21 PM 12-2-2006_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (chrisj428)*

To sum up a half hour of *pleasant* reading...
The Eos has a complicated retracting roof. Some people, perhaps with fat arms, large dogs, misaligned windows, improperly coded controllers or bad breath, are having problems with window retractions and pinch protection. Nobody knows why, yet, but the best minds have addressed the problem and all will be revealed soon. Be a happy early adopter. If visiting service departments is bothersome, or risky, (heck, I've never let a valet parking attendant set foot in my car) I'd say hold back and wait until the issue is fully investigated and a fix is in before you take your car back. Get it done right.



_Modified by Paldi at 8:09 PM 12-2-2006_


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (Paldi)*

I'm interested in this car and I have found this helpful. I belong to a forum for my current car, one of the new thunderbirds, and we experienced problems that paralleled this.. mainly the fact that the delerships weren't familiar with the car. Ford dealerships are used to dealing with trucks and mustangs. the Thunderbird was made out of jag and lincoln bits. Worse, they ford guys treated the bird like it was a truck... I one time got my bird (which I keep immaculate) with grease on the rug and on the suede/leather seats!!!! i cleaned it myself. They also don't stock all of the parts, one time I had to race to a dealership 28 miles away to get it. When I got a call from them for their service rating I told them everything. At least IO have the option to go to a lincoln/jag dealership, since they can service the car there. I'd rather see my car sitting next to jags and lincolns than trucks and mustangs.
What kept me sane was the online community like this. Folks oste dtheir experiences, we even had some ford guys post TSB and the like. They owned the car themselves. Perhaps we will get some folks like that here. I think gettign dealers and service techs involved int he omline community may help eduucated boith sides. wther way, keep upo the diligence and the great contributions here. You brave early adopters can alieviate much of the pain many folks woudl have following in your footsteps.


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (chrisj428)*

I appreciate everyone's insights. I'll just consider myself in an unlucky situation. I know my dealer is doing what they can under the circumstances. As someone mentioned and in hindsight, it may have been better to wait until a known fix was officially published, however, it seemed from reading two others' experiences (from this forum) with the same window problem that their dealerships were able to solve the problem - so I thought a fix was already in place at "techline".
All I can do now is wait for the fix and hope nothing else is damaged while the car is in my dealer's care or the specialty leather shop's care. Although, I'm without my new car for a few more days, at least I have a rental now so that I don't have to pay for taxis to get from point A to B - so it's not so bad.
I'll do my best to focus only on my warranty problems here - and let all of you know if we are able to successfully solve the problems and what the fixes are. That way, nobody else has to re-invent the wheel and be without a car for more than a week.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (wy)*

I got my car back Saturday with the windows supposedly fixed. 
So far, during testing we have not had them drop down. 
I have one very simple request. I believe somewhere in this thread, one lucky person said their windows were fixed and with their doors open, they now had a perfect 3/8" gap at the top of their windows all the way across, back to front. I am jealous.
Can we PLEASE verify if that even gap is what we should ALL have?
So far, I have not been able to verify what is the proper gap when you slowly open the doors. Neither has my dealer been able to do so.
When I pointed out to him that when you open the doors the rear of the windows clear the seals, but the front of the windows near the critical roof/windshield header seal do not, he said that was normal. I told him when you further measure how much the window drops down at the triangle mounting area at the front for the mirrors, you could easily see they were not dropping down at all to properly clear the seals.
Since I was the one who showed him he had 3 Eos on his lot with tilted hoods, he at least listened to me and went out to check the other new Eos' on his lot for comparison. He said it appeared that "most" of them cleared the seals at the back, and most of them cleared the front, but still hit the front seals "pretty much".
Also, while I was testing my car Sunday, I noticed that if you have your doors wide open, as if you were fixing them, and open the windows all the way, you see something different when you close them. With the doors wide open and windows down, if you then close them with the doors open, they stop at about 3/8" from the top, all the way across, front to back. 
What a beautiful sight!! PERFECT. Then when you close the doors with the windows at that height, they easily clear the seals with about a 3/8" gap all the way across, front to back, and then the windows jump up and seal beautifully and tightly against their seals. PERFECT.
This is how I remember all my other cars (BMW coupes and convertibles) working. NONE of them ever had this seal clearance problem unless they were frozen.
When I pointed this out to the dealer, he said he would have to check it out but thought that was "different than how the windows go down normally".
As it stands, this can't be right. After the dealer fixed the car, when you open the doors, especially the passenger side, the windows are so tight against the seal at the front that the doors are actually held in place by the seal grabbing the windows.
Can we please confirm once and for all in writing how much the windows should jump down when the doors are opened? I really hate seeing and hearing the windows forced through the seals knowing full well it means I will have to bring the car back and have them replace those seals further inviting more problems.
I begged him to contact VW for a better plan of attack and told him I would check this site for advice. He said VW told him, "they were not experiencing any common problems with the windows and seals."
That makes me very nervous. What about all the people here living with this problem and trying to get it fixed? Are there no records and common research area?
If we could post the factory spec for proper window seal clearance, I think that would help resolve this. Pics would say a 1000 words but official words are best.
In the meanwhile, the best way to avoid damaging your window seals is to drive around with your windows open and top down.
When I spoke to VWoA about this, they replied "you have to give your dealer a chance." I told them they failed at attempt number one. They were going to research it and get back to me about attempt number two.
Oh well. Feels like a long December coming....


----------



## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

Hey, David.
You may be our saviour here. Did you say your windows open 3/8" all the way across (back to front)?
If so, do you have pics of that? You might be the only one here with those pics.
Thanks


----------



## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (notawagon)*

Hi 
When i said 3/8" that is our[uk] passegar side , which is 100% level and ok ,,, it is our drivers side that is not level ,,, going to the dealers again tomorrow FOR A NEW TOP DOOR SEAL




























As i said before how is this going to fix it ,,,, just level the window , it is not rocket science..
Dave


----------



## timetrip (Oct 21, 2006)

*Re: Passenger door closing improperly. (notawagon)*

I've also noticed the extra lowering of the window when its raised with the door open on my EOS. I think I posted this somewhere here a while ago, but probably got lost in the shuffle. When I put the top back up and keep the driver door open at the end, the window stops much lower than when normally opening the door. As you mentioned, I could tell from the seal on the door itself by the side-view.
Also, I have the slight rubbing on the front of the sill as well. I've taken the car to the dealer twice to get this fixed, and they still haven't got it right.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: LEAKS (davidg)*

Thanks, David.
Michael and other technical folks, I hope you are reading this.
My dealer called today proactively which I greatly respect with his update. Rather than wait two weeks for the VW Field Quality guy, there will be a VW Field Engineer at his dealership this Friday who wants to see this. This sounds like progress and I am optimistic and hopeful.
I explained this morning when you really compare my doors, the left door clears the seal _fairly_ well. The right door does not clear it at all at the front critical location. If you remember, my right one was the one they spent the most time fixing. He agreed they should at least be able to get the right side to clear as well as the left.
David and or anyone else, could you please post pics of what a properly opening door and window looks like that clears the seal all the way across evenly? Does that actually exist?
When you open my right door, you can see, hear, and feel the window force its way through the outer edge of the seal up at the front critical juncture. It is worse when you close it and I know it is leading to a seal failure and replacement.
We all know what they look like when they don't clear the seal. I have not seen one yet that clears completely and I have now looked at several Eos at the lot. All had various levels of clearance.
Michael, I believe you have access to the Eos repair manual. Isn't there something there that says what the proper clearance measurements should be?
Please post the pics before Friday so I can be prepared to help resolve this. With the VW guy present, this could help many people here.
Thanks and let's keep our fingers crossed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## emdeesee (Nov 17, 2006)

When I get home (my camera is at home) today I'll take some photos of my Eos; which does not exhibit the issue of any windows not closing properly.
I am fairly certain that when I press unlock once on the keyfob the driver's window rolls down a small amount so the window will clear the seal.
If needed I can take some photos and measure how much the window moves down. I can use those two lines at the top of the window as a base of measurement.


----------



## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: (emdeesee)*

Yes, thanks very much. In any lab or test environment, you must have good examples for comparison. You must also never assume anything is good and not a part of the problem.
I have many years of painful experience troubleshooting and proving Telephone Company problems to help save Corporations millions. You have to work methodically and like a detective. Never assume. Everyone and everything is suspect until proven good.
I have also noticed when I approach the car and press my remote to unlock the door that the driver window moves down very slightly. 
I have not verified the passenger side does this also when you hit the button twice to unlock both sides. 
Perhaps if I discover it is not going down the same as the other, that will be a valuable symptom.
Thanks in advance. Any pics of a known good window seal operation would be greatly appreciated.


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: (notawagon)*

Hey Everyone,
This will be a long post but hopefully you find the information useful. I am including pictures and videos of my passenger window that is catching the seal, and also a crude schematic of what I think could possibly be the remedy. First, the pics and videos.
The following two pics are my driver's side window. It clears the seal fine every time. Because the door is open, the clearance towards the rear seems exaggerated. My best measurements (sorry, don't have a micrometer at work) show a 1/8" clearance at the rear. Towards the front, the least amount of clearance in the closest area is 1/16".
















The following is a pic of my passenger window. The circled area is where it typically catches.








The following are 2 videos I posted on YouTube of the passenger window opening. You can hear the audible "thwump" as the window clears the seal, but there is sort of a delay with the audio. I did the second video closer and tried to open the door slower. Watch it a couple times and you can see the rubber seal "zipper" over the top of the window.
Passenger video 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZkGqVhKblc 
Passneger video 2 (closeup): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHGj7IqLDZw 
Lastly, here is a crude drawing of window schematic. I drew it quickly, so it makes it seem like the bolt goes through the glass. This isn't correct, but hopefully you get the concept. The lowest edge of the glass actually site above the bolt. The bolt runs through to the other piece of the clip, and tightening the nut clamps it to the window. This is where there is room for vertical adjustment.








On my 2000 GTI, I experienced the common window regulator failure. Specifically, the clips used to attach the regulator frame to the base of the window were originally plastic. They would both fail, and then your window would drop into the door. My window never broke, but you can imagine the shock and frustration. VW eventually redesigned the clips out of metal and ended up having to fix a lot of vehicles. They also reimbursed anyone that had had them fixed out of warranty (like me!). The first time mine broke, my car was already out of warranty and it cost me $250 to have it repaired. The second time they broke (this was before the updated metal version had come out), I decided to try and fix them myself. I took apart the door (with instructions from very helpful Vortexers!) and rigged the clips with metal wire to stay attached properly. It worked fine but took forever to adjust properly. If you look at the close-up of the clip above, there is basically a vertical height adjustment when tightening the clip onto the window. The first attempts at tightening my window ended up having the window crooked, or activating the pinch protection because the window wasn't going up "square." After a few tries, the window worked perfect everytime. A year later, VW came out with the update and updated both of my windows.
I am not sure if the Eos windows are setup similar, as they are frameless and might be more complicated. But I think the same principle probably still applies. Because there are 2 clips, this also could explain why the front of my mine is not clearing but the back is. I can see the passenger window drop the same distance as the driver's when I hit the unlock button twice. It would appear that if the front window regulator clip was adjusted so the window sat 1/8" lower, this would clear the seal for the entire length of the window.
If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask. As you can tell, it has been a slow day at work! 

_Modified by Turbocrazy at 7:40 PM 12-6-2006_


_Modified by Turbocrazy at 7:46 PM 12-6-2006_


----------



## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (notawagon)*

Thanks David. 
I finally got my car back yesterday after 8 days in the shop. The passenger window problem still persists, but my dealer says the fix requires a new window regulator (not simply a clamping adjustment). So my dealer has ordered a new regulator which is currently backordered nationally - expected to arrive approx 4 weeks from now (early Jan). 
I will take detailed pics when I get home today. One of the easiest ways to spot and recognize the problem is by comparing the rubber seal near the side view mirrors. When both driver and passenger windows are fully up, the window touches (and is fully flushed) with the rubber seal. When you open the door, the driver side window lowers approx 0.7 cm from this rubber seal. However, the passenger side window doesn't lower at all from this rubber seal. The ONLY part of the passenger window that lowers is the REAR section (the door handle section) of the door. That's why it appears that the window is rolling down in a "tilted" fashion.
Will post pics later to illustrate this.


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

I have the same problem, and my dealer responded in the same way. They have ordered new regulators which are in back order right now. I'll suggest a hack that gets me by...apply pressure to the window as you close the door right were the window bites the seal. When you do this, you flex the window enoguh to prevent the seal fron sticking. it is a crude and crappy way to go, but it works until they fix my window.
Regards,


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: LEAKS (wy)*

I went out to take pictures of my windows, because I've not had a problem with them. But apparently that is just because I don't use the passenger side often, and/or it is just a problem to a lesser degree on my car.
Anyway one thing I noticed that I don't think I've read here, is that after you have pushed unlock, and the window has dropped, if you push down on the window it will easily slide another 3/8". 
I'm not sure this info is any use diagnostically, but practically, if you need to use the door, push the button, and then slide it down the rest of the way. Obviously this is no permanent solution, but until someone actually resolves the issue, it will keep your door seals from getting too mangled.
I should note that I tried the drivers door and to a lesser degree (say 1/8") the same tactic worked. I also noticed a difference between the amount the window drops when you unlock the car, and when the door is closed and you open the door handle. Unlocking it opened the window on average 1/8" less on both sides. I'm not sure why this would be. It seems to me that the window should drop the same distance in either case.
Giles


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## emdeesee (Nov 17, 2006)

*Re: (notawagon)*

Here are some photos I took now.
Passenger Side:








^ Back of Window. Unlocked.








^ Front of Window. Unlocked.
Driver's Side:








^ Back of Window. Unlocked








^ Front of Window. Unlocked
When the car is locked the window rolls up so that the two lines ( = ) are gone. When unlocked the windows Roll down to where the photos show. So there is a little bit of space above the two lines.
I hope these photos help. If anyone wants me to take any specific photos, just ask.


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: (emdeesee)*

Mine are exactly like yours. The "=" line methodology too.


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## atlantanorth (Nov 7, 2006)

*Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door*

I can recreate this everytime by doing the following:
1 - Lock EOS with fob button
2 - Press unlock on fob twice to unlock passenger door
3 - OPen passenger door (do not open driver side first)
4 - Close door - window rolls itself down 3/4 of the way.
Anyone else have this issue?
Thanks


----------



## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (atlantanorth)*

Did exactly what you said. No problem at all. Window shuts appropriately like usual.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (atlantanorth)*

Take a look at this thread atlantanorth.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2838958 
Those of us contributing to this thread are actively trying to gather all forms of data on the issue you just described. I have no doubt that this thread will get appended to the existing one because it is nice to keep all of this information in one place. If you could, please try to map out every step of the process you described and include pictures of the results. You may want to even measure how much your window rolls down when you unlock it or note if the window is dragging on the seals of the door. There seem to be other problems related to this very issue which may require a visit to your dealership for an adjustment. You aren't alone atlantanorth but since this doesn't seem to be a problem in every EOS off the line it may take a few visits to your dealership for them to diagnose, research, and fix it. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: LEAKS (gilesrulz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gilesrulz* »_...one thing I noticed that I don't think I've read here, is that after you have pushed unlock, and the window has dropped, if you push down on the window it will easily slide another 3/8". I'm not sure this info is any use diagnostically...

Hi Giles:
I think that is a very valuable observation. It raises the possibility that the problem with the window not going down far enough might simply be related to stiction in the window regulator mechanism. In other words, if the window floated freely in its track without any friction at all, then perhaps there would not be any window problems?
This is a guess, a shot in the dark, because I don't have an Eos handy to play with.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (aflaedge)*

Chris:
Do you want me to append this to the Passenger door closing improperly discussion, or leave it as a stand-alone new topic, and just put a pointer (archival note) in the other discussion that refers over here?
I'm not sure if the information presented here is directly related to the other topic, or a new issue.
Your call.
Michael


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (PanEuropean)*

Well Michael, I would say leave it up to the thread originator. From what Atlantanorth described I would say that it is the same bug or series of bugs that are being discussed elswhere. However, if Atlantanorth feels differently after reading the referenced link then I would say leave it alone. I just figured I would point out the larger thread so that Atlantanorth wouldn't feel alone. I know there is one more fairly large thread from late september/early october that overlaps the Passenger door closing improperly thread but I don't know if you've appended that one already.


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## atlantanorth (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (aflaedge)*

I read th eother thread - it appears to be more related to window pinching or window dropping a little bit. Mine the window actually rolls down 3/4 of the way all by itself simply closing the door under the conditions I outlined. I am going to call the dealer today about it.


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (atlantanorth)*

I have the same problem when the window does not go under the rubber seal up top and sticks out. If you hold the door when you close it, it invariably does this. If you close the door with some force and release it the window goes under the rubber seal and it does not happen. When it does happen I usually just go over to the driver door and put my key in the lock and roll it up from the outside. I am waiting a bit to see if they come up with a good solustion before I raise too much hell.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (EosEnthusiastNB)*

Hey, guys,.
This is the same problem we have all been having.
Please merge it.
I am meeting with VW Friday to look into it. (2nd attempt)
Once again, I was hoping to have pics of windows that drop down perfectly and/or pics of perfect windows that have been successfully repaired for Friday.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: (ialonso)*

Many thanks to ialonso, wy, and Turbocrazy. I feel we are making definite progress. I just hope it does not take a year for VW to fix this properly. Progress begins with pain, unfortunately. The first step to fixing a problem is to fully acknowledge and understand the problem. In many cases, people do not want to acknowledge any problems for various reasons.
As I have said prevously, my dealer, Palisades VW asked me to come in on Friday to meet with the VW Engineer and have him look at this. Turbocrazy, your pics are the first ones posted that show what appears to be a properly working driver's side window. This is the first time I have seen an Eos window that totally clears the seal. That proves it is possible and it does exist. We cannot be told "it is normal and the windows will always hit the seal."
Your photos and video (outstanding, by the way) match my car exactly and, I'm sure, many others past and present. This is good troubleshooting. When you have multiple and many examples of the same problem, the problem is proven to exist. Also, since there are many examples of the same problem with the exact same symptoms, it might be presumed (not assumed) the necessary and targetted fix will be common versus unique.
This is extremely important because it means existing field cases can be resolved by a common reactive fix, and production or near production cars can be proactively fixed. I just hope it does not take a year like switching from plastic to metal clips, etc...
ialonso, wy, and Turbocrazy, would you please let me know the names and locations of your dealerships so I can let my dealer and the VW Engineer know? I would prefer they research what those dealers found and diagnosed that caused them to order the new window regulators, versus taking my doors and windows apart (again) just to come up with the same solution. Each tme you take your car to a Service area, you risk further damage. It's like repeatedly going to a hospital.
Turbocrazy, do you also have pics of the "good" window at the front mirror triangle mount so we can see what that looks like when the door has been opened? I want to see if yours drops down enough and clears that area to be clearly visible.
Thanks. This is great progress that all should appreciate. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: (notawagon)*

Okay, here are some pictures I took just to let you see whether you think it is normal or not.
When I press unlocked once, the driver side door's pictures are shown as below. 





























And when I press twice the unlock button on remote, the passenger door's pictures are as follow.
























_Modified by darien at 11:55 AM 12-7-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (atlantanorth)*

Michael H.:
Is it OK with you if I merge this discussion onto the end of the other discussion (Passenger door closing improperly), so as to keep related matters in one place, or do you think the issue is sufficiently different that we should leave your topic alone and just cross-reference it?
Michael


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## emdeesee (Nov 17, 2006)

Unless I'm mistaken, I think that that is what it is supposed to do.
Has your Eos shown any signs of this pinch issue?
Mine is doing the same as yours with the = marks. 
The windows don't roll down as to fully clear the seals, but they roll down enough to make opening and closing the door slide nicely past the seal.


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## cistearns (Nov 8, 2006)

I think the windows should be going down enough to completely clear the seals. I think that may be one point of confusion - should they always clear or not? If they should always clear then VW needs to make this clear to service departments.

Mine windows do clear sometimes but not others. When the do not completely clear the windows sort of have to pop past the seal which doesn't seem right to me - it puts enough stress on the window that it deflects some as it pops past the seal
From what I have seen on my car there are two variables that effect what happens. The first is temperature - if it is cold out my windows never lower enough to completely clear the seals. The second is that the windows appear to lower a different amount if they roll down because of unlocking the car or because of pulling on the door. If they are not down and I open my door (car unlocked) it goes further and usually clears.
In my case it is clear to me that my drivers and passenger side windows are not aligned the same - but I have had trouble getting my dealer to fix it, in part because VW hasn't come up with a resolution for the problem.

It seems to me the simple solution for VW is to increase the distance the windows go down by a small amount. Currently the tolerances are so tight that the windows must be perfectly aligned for it to always clear. The other option is to produce better documentation for service departments on how the windows should be aligned. ( We know that it relates to the = marks but there is a lot of variability in what people think is correct alignment. )


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: (cistearns)*

Have you tried pushing down on the window like I mentioned above?
I just read a TSB (#6406-06) for a NB, that referenced windows coming out of their regulators, with the solution being to glue rubber pads onto the glass so that the regulators grip them better. Now I know that extrapolating a TSB to another car model is generally not a good idea, but with my experience yesterday of being able to push the window downwards enough that it would easily clear the seals, it strikes me as a possible solution. Can anyone else confirm that they can push their window down to the appropriate height after it has lowered itself?

_Quote »_I went out to take pictures of my windows, because I've not had a problem with them. But apparently that is just because I don't use the passenger side often, and/or it is just a problem to a lesser degree on my car.
Anyway one thing I noticed that I don't think I've read here, is that after you have pushed unlock, and the window has dropped, if you push down on the window it will easily slide another 3/8".
I'm not sure this info is any use diagnostically, but practically, if you need to use the door, push the button, and then slide it down the rest of the way. Obviously this is no permanent solution, but until someone actually resolves the issue, it will keep your door seals from getting too mangled.
I should note that I tried the drivers door and to a lesser degree (say 1/8") the same tactic worked. I also noticed a difference between the amount the window drops when you unlock the car, and when the door is closed and you open the door handle. Unlocking it opened the window on average 1/8" less on both sides. I'm not sure why this would be. It seems to me that the window should drop the same distance in either case.
Giles



_Modified by gilesrulz at 12:32 PM 12-7-2006_


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: (emdeesee)*

These latest pics are also very helpful. When I press my remote once, my driver's side window jumps down slightly but not as much as yours. When I press it again to unlock both doors, the passenger window does not jump down at all. You can hear it and see it move a tiny bit as if it is trying, but it does not go down. And this was the one they spent time fixing.
Also, when my doors are opened, I have zero gap at the front mirror mounts. You can see the windows are pushing up tightly there, not as much on the driver's side. Way more on the passenger side.
By now many of you are yelling at the screen that it should not be rocket science to get the dealer and VW to simply make the windows jump down evenly front to back and to make them work equally as well on both sides of the car. My SM told me his Tech said he believed he could not make the gaps any bigger without risking water leakage. 
They also are not sure if they have found any other car on the lot that works perfectly. They are not sure what perfect is nor what the proper spec is. They have not gotten the spec for perfect operating and alignment.
One scary thought... What if the passenger windows ARE working properly and the problem is caused by passenger side roof seals that are too low against the window? On my car and what looks like Turbocrazy's car, the passenger roof seal looks much lower on the passenger side than the driver side.
The SM is leaning toward ordering new window regulator(s), but can't until the VW guy agrees.
Wish me plenty of luck tomorrow... If this turns out to be another window regulator, I think based on similar results of others here we may have found the common culprit. Let's hope. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: (gilesrulz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gilesrulz* »_Have you tried pushing down on the window like I mentioned above?
I just read a TSB (#6406-06) for a NB, that referenced windows coming out of their regulators, with the solution being to glue rubber pads onto the glass so that the regulators grip them better. Now I know that extrapolating a TSB to another car model is generally not a good idea, but with my experience yesterday of being able to push the window downwards enough that it would easily clear the seals, it strikes me as a possible solution. Can anyone else confirm that they can push their window down to the appropriate height after it has lowered itself?

I can confirm that my driver's side door is now not sliding down, but that a gentle press against the top of the window will push it down the appropriate distance in order to clear the seal.
(For those of you asking about cold weather, this occurs indoors at +18 Celsius, so it's not directly related to cold or freezing. Since this is new behaviour, it may be related to the cold.)


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: (emdeesee)*

I think that's what it supposed to do. It doesn't look like it catches anything at all. I am not aware of it at least. What do u guys think?


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: (neweosowner)*

That's strange. Even without pressing any button on the remote, when I open the latch on the handle of the door, the window will automatically dropped down exactly like how my pictures shown or more. Therefore, I think my window operates normally.


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: (neweosowner)*

It is normal for the windows to drop when pulling on the handle. You will notice that if the door is already unlocked, when you pull the handle, the window does the same drop. Or, if you unlock with the remote but don't open for 20-30 seconds, the window will go back up to the "closed" position but then drop again the instant you pull the door handle.
For any of you that don't know, the overall launch of the Eos was delayed to resolve some sound/whistling issues from some of the seals. The fix was to add a special coating, which I am assuming is a pebble-like texture on the seal. The same texture was added to the rubber seals that interface with the top of the side windows. Is it possible that there is more friction as a result and the windows are not able to go to their intended unlock position? I have noticed the same thing as everyone else. After unlocking either door and opening it, I can lightly push on the glass and it lowers another 1/4", easily enough for each door to clear its seal. I feel like the speed at which the windows "pop" when unlcoking is faster than the windows actually roll down when lowering with the window switches. Maybe they just need to be fastened tighter, as someone mentioned with the New Beetle TSB?


_Modified by Turbocrazy at 11:20 PM 12-7-2006_


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## cistearns (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: (gilesrulz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gilesrulz* »_Have you tried pushing down on the window like I mentioned above?

Yes, I am seeing the exact same thing, I can push it down an extra bit before it meets resistance - possibly where it should be lowering to.

_Quote, originally posted by *gilesrulz* »_I also noticed a difference between the amount the window drops when you unlock the car, and when the door is closed and you open the door handle. Unlocking it opened the window on average 1/8" less on both sides. I'm not sure why this would be. It seems to me that the window should drop the same distance in either case.

I am also seeing this exact behavior. 
Though as it has been getting colder both cases it doesn't roll down enough.


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## atlantanorth (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (PanEuropean)*

Yes you may merge. I dropped the car off at the dealer yesterday. I tried to show them what was happening and instead the window stuck outside the seal instead of going down. I laughed cause I said well that is a new one - usually it just goes down. Anyway, they just called me this morning and told me it was fixed, that the window was not dropping correctly and was striking the seal cause it was out of aligment and was triggering the pinch protection at times which is why it would roll down - so they aligned it. So we will see if I have any more problems.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (atlantanorth)*

Wow, that is excellent news atlantanorth! If you like the rest of your experience with your dealership you should post them up on the thread about good dealerships. Hopefully this sort of speedy response and diagnosis is spreading amongst the other dealership service depts. Keep us all informed of any changes over the next few weeks.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: Passenger Side Window lowers 3/4 way when closing door (aflaedge)*

You should read my latest entry from this morning in the other thread.... You may be returning to the dealer today.


----------



## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*PROGRESS!*

Okay everyone. My car is at the dealer today for attempt #2. Today the VW Field Engineer will also look at it.
Thankfully, when the Service Manager went out with me on this cold 18 degree F morning, my Eos came through for me and all of us and demonstrated EXACTLY what the problem was.
When he opened the door (I let him do it so he could try whatever technique he wanted) not only did he see and hear the now famous "thump" of the window forcing its way through the seal, he was also able to trap the seal between the window and roof TWICE out of three tries. This was PERFECT! No need for vortex pictures.
He also stated that his Tech (who has been on my side), confirmed he had lowered the window as far as it could go. He and the Tech now believed there was no other adjustment remaining to get that window to clear the seal.
The SM was really hoping the members out there who have had dealers order new window regulators whould let him know who the dealers are so he could show the VW guy. I haven't heard back from them so I'll try IM.
At least the good news here is my SM respects my input now in this matter and from my last experience with the misaligned hood. He is no longer saying this is as good at it gets and wants a complete fix from VW. He is also concerned about wasting time and effort by simply "throwing parts at the problem" and hopes VW confirms a new regulator will fix it and any others he encounters.
I'll let you know what happens later... In the meanwhile, I have to get the names of dealers who have ordered new window regulators for this problem.


----------



## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (notawagon)*

Did yo ever try pushing your window downward? I'm wondering if your window is more wanged up than most, or if it is a different problem entirely.


----------



## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: PROGRESS! (gilesrulz)*

My left window does go down when you push on it. My right does not, but that was the one the dealer "fixed" previously. He says now the right side window is "as low as he can get it to go." I assumed he tightened everything when he put it back together.
My windows don't jump down 5 inches anymore so that problem might be fixed now, at least.
It is becoming more clear here that the seal clearance problem is far more pronounced on the right side windows. For example, Turbocrazy's pics and video are EXACTLY what my car is doing. They both are too tight against the seal when the door is opened which will result in seal failure.
In the UK, they also have the same problem with the right side window which is their driver's side.
This is all good. It shows the problem is fairly common and easily duplicated. It might be something as easy as bad right side regulators (if they are different than left side), improper or misaligned regulator mounting holes in the right side doors, etc...
As others have said here, the problem might be more common than thought. Many new Eos drivers in the US have never opened their right side door themselves so haven't noticed the problem. I only discovered mine when my right side window jumped down 5 inches in the pouring rain. Then I became VERY aware of it.
I just hope it is not a matter of right side roof seals that are too low or tight. That would be a pain to resolve and might open another can of worms. However, I believe we are all experiencing the same symptom and problem. That should make it easier to isolate and fix. Hopefully they will come up with a proper fix versus temporary or band-aid.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*PROGNOSIS!*

Excellent news!
My SM just called to say VW told him to go ahead and order new window regulators for both sides.
I think he was as relieved and happy as me.
The replacements are new and improved. The left and right sides are different part numbers.
The line for parts starts behind me.
This is not 100% certain until proven but has been authorized.







http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: PROGNOSIS! (notawagon)*

notawagon,
I PM'ed you my dealer's info.
They decided to order a new regulator for my passenger door after talking on the phone with VW techline (expected to arrive in 4 weeks). I don't know the details - i.e. whether this the new regulator is an improvement over my current regulator, but I hope it works. Will let you know.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: PROGNOSIS! (wy)*

Wy, Karter:
That sounds like very good news to me (the decision to replace the window regulators). I have seen what a window regulator looks like when the door on my Phaeton was dis-assembled. It is a very complex mechanism that guides the window up and down, and controls movement of the window in all three axis - X, Y, and Z.
When the window regulator arrives and the techs install it, suggest to them that they also check to ensure that the metal brackets that grip the glass at the bottom - there are two of them - are firmly attached to the glass. One of the metal brackets attached to the bottom of the window glass on my Phaeton was loose. This did not cause any problem with my car because a Phaeton has the traditional channels in the window frame to guide the window. But, it could cause problems in a frameless window design such as an Eos has. If the glass is not grasped securely by the clamp, then it would be free to wiggle in all axis.
Below are a couple of photos that illustrate the problem my car had. This loose metal attachment didn't even cause a problem in my car - the tech discovered it by surprise when he had the door apart to replace an exterior door handle.
Michael
*Phaeton Window, missing front bottom clamp*
_The clamp was loose, so the tech took it off, cleaned it, and re-glued it in place._

*What the window clamp normally looks like*
_This is what is used to attach the glass to the regulator mechanism_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: PROGNOSIS! (PanEuropean)*

Just a post-script here: It is very hard to show a picture of the window regulator mechanism, because it is on the _inside _of the big aluminum panel that you see on the door below. You can see the electric motor that causes the window to go up and down, but you can't see the whole system of cables, pullys, and guide rails, because they are on the other side of that big aluminum panel.
I 'kinda, sorta' think that a window regulator mechanism consists of the entire aluminum panel, minus any extras such as speakers, etc. that are also mounted on it.
The photo below is of the inside of a Phaeton door after the decorative inner door panel has been removed.
Michael
*Phaeton Door - what's behind the decorative panel*


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## Timokreon (Nov 13, 2006)

*My little problem*

After reading all these posts I decided to look at my driver and passenger door windows.
Upon observation, the driver side door moves down to the check points on the window and opens easily. 
The passenger door drops only a tiny bit, but clears most of the seal. The window rubs upon opening towards the middle front, and the front of the window.
I believe I too shall show this to my dealer. I don't have any leaks, etc... but I would think after awhile the seal would wear from the window hitting this seal.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (gilesrulz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gilesrulz* »_I just read a TSB (#6406-06) for a NB, that referenced windows coming out of their regulators, with the solution being to glue rubber pads onto the glass so that the regulators grip them better.

Hi Giles:
I just noticed your comment (quoted above) now - interesting that there is a TB out for the New Beetle recommending that the rubber be glued to the glass - in the case of the loose attachment mechanism with my Phaeton (photos above), the rubber was securely attached to the glass, but the aluminum thing was not securely attached to the rubber.
I think my experience with the Phaeton was a 'one-off' - I have never heard anyone with a Phaeton mention a window problem, and if I had not taken the door apart to solve an exterior door handle problem, I never would have seen the loose attachment to the bottom of the window pane.
Michael


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## atlantanorth (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (notawagon)*

I picked up my EOS from the dealer last Friday. The re-alignment they did appears to have resolved the issue.







Passenger side window closes correctly and is not rolling itself down mysteriously. I am keeping my fingers crossed I will not have to take it back for this issue again.


----------



## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (atlantanorth)*

Well ours has been in the dealer since Wednesday ,,, still not got it back ,, and don't know when it will be back ,, today , tomorrow














as they say they want it fixed this time







only went in for there fix "a new rubber seal " so guess this did not work


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: PROGRESS! (davidg)*

Got to work this morning, walked around to grab my laptop from the passenger side, and closed the door. The door obviously didn't close hard enough and did this:
















The weird this is the window didn't activated the pinch protection. It was probably like this for about 10 minutes before a co-worker came in with a digital camera. I took the pics real quick, then opened and closed the door again and everything was fine. I was going to wait until my 5K service to have my passenger window looked at. But with the rainy season approaching, I think I'll be taking it in sooner!


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*window regulators have arrived...*

My SM called to say both updated window regulators have arrived (MUCH better than 4 weeks) after he and the VW Field QC guy escalated the request.
My appointment with free loaner car is Wed 12/20.
If anyone has these installed before then, please post the results right away. I hope the windows will drop a full 3/8" evenly front to back when the doors are opened with no seal contact.
I'll let you know how my 3rd attempt goes. Hopefully we will not have to see what happens if a 4th attempt is necessary.....


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: window regulators have arrived... (notawagon)*

OK The dealer is telling us that they dont know what the problem is







,, they have read all the posts from here apart from the last couple of pages about the regulator,,,, they have asked vw uk if they can ,,,,, wait for it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Get permission to REMOVE THE DOOR PANEL and check the window bottom fixings out
















The pics in the other thread are 100% Not what is happening to ours ......


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: PROGRESS! (Turbocrazy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Turbocrazy* »_The door obviously didn't close hard enough and did this...

Awesome pictures Shaun, thanks very much for sharing them with us.
I wonder if the window was down ('prepped') to begin with, and somehow the window controller _thought _the door was closed, even though it was only half-latched? Just a guess.
Michael


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*

Hey Michael,
I think this was just a fluke, as my window has never shut like this before. When I closed the door, I pushed it with my elbow (as I had stuff in my hands) and the door closed at a very slow speed. I think the door was basically latched but still open (interior lights stayed on). It was probably moving fast enough to catch, trigger the windows to go up, but not fast enough to fully latch. This is completely separate from my normal issue of the window not clearing the seal everytime I open/close the passenger door. But I wanted to post the pics in case this has ever happened to anyone else, and to let everyone know this is a possibility if the door is not firmly shut.
Back to the seal clearance topic, for those that have had their's "fixed", any consensus on whether it as an adjustment, new regulators, or both that has resolved the issue?


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

I also have the problem, and I can replicate it every time by closing the door SLOWLY... for some reason the design attempts to be very precise with as little clearance as possible, so such a small misadjustment causes this. 
If the window went down a full inch, and waited full 2 secs before moving back up, I wouldn't have a problem in my car, and neither would several of you. but the design is so tight that the slight misalignment is an issue.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Awesome pictures Shaun, thanks very much for sharing them with us.
I wonder if the window was down ('prepped') to begin with, and somehow the window controller _thought _the door was closed, even though it was only half-latched? Just a guess.
Michael

That was my guess too about 2 pages back and on another thread somewhere buried on this forum. I've been speculating that the when the window rolls up outside the seals or is closed outside the seals it doesn't trigger the pinch protection. However, at some later point there is a system check that discovers this and then rolls down the window after the unsuspecting owner is long gone.


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (aflaedge)*

































































Well got it back today after 8 days in the shop http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

They have fixed it ,,,, so here goes ,,, 2nd hand info from the Mrs [yes it is her car ]

They have tried some new window settings/ programs from vw uk ,,, and they could not cure it ,,,,,,,, vw insisted that this would fix it








So the fix is A NEW WINDOW GLASS





















so we now have a new glass that opens and closes as it should

















































also the last few days before the car went in the shop the window had a squeak on its way down this has gone as well ,,,,,,
The , i think best result for all is vw now have opened a case file in the uk http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The dealer also said thanks for all the info off this forum [these pages ] http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

All the best for the up and coming Christmas holidays and a happy window closing new year



































http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 
Dave 


_Modified by davidg at 8:53 AM 12-20-2006_


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: PROGRESS! (davidg)*

David,
Please confirm what your dealer did. Can you please tell us EXACTLY what it says on the repair order?
You're saying they replaced the "window glass".?????
Please confirm so I can let my guy know before my appointment to replace BOTH REGULATORS on the 20th.
This will be my 3rd Service trip for the windows. I hope it is not trial and error, for THEIR sake.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: PROGRESS! (notawagon)*

David, Karter:
If I had to place bets, I would put my money on Karter's dealership having a better outcome with the window regulator replacements.
To be honest, I don't think replacement of the regulator is required, I think that adjustment is required. But, if they are going to replace it, they will also have to adjust it, so what the heck - it's often easier for a VW dealer to get warranty approval to replace a part than warranty approval to adjust a part. Dysfunctional, I know, but such is life.
Glass replacement, though







I don't think glass is very malleable, and I can't imagine what could go wrong with a piece of glass. I mean, it's either broken, or not broken. One of the clamps on the bottom of a piece of glass in my Phaeton came loose, but it was child's play to glue it back on.
Anyway, thanks again to both of you for continuing to share the knowledge you have both gained as you go through this process. Once we get it all figured out, you will be regarded as pioneers...








Michael


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## Canadian Lurker (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I suspect that you are right in that the actual glass itself is not the issue. Probably though, in having to replace it they must end up having to adjust the regulators in order to remove and replace the glass. At the very least the removal and replacing would ensure a proper fit. And so you are also correct in that it requires something to be replaced under warranty as a back door way to be approved for an adjustment under warranty.








JJ


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## davidg (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (Canadian Lurker)*

I have to 100% agree with the last x2 post's ,,,,,, as vw uk would not let them do a adjust ,, all the info from here printed off [they did read it] ,,,, the easy [back door] way , new glass , new settings , new adjustment ,, as i said when the Mrs came home and said to me they fitted a new glass














the glass is the same








Result for us in the UK anyway http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: PROGRESS! (davidg)*

It appears that VW has found the fix for the window problems. Please see this post: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10).
Michael


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*

Went to a GTG at a dealer today and I peered at all the Eos's on the lot (about 5 or 6), particularly at their windows. I noted on two of the cars that the front windows were pinching the rubber top seal on at least one side. The other cars were fine. The difference between the ones that were fine and the ones that exhibited the problem? The ones that were fine had the windows adjusted so that the top reference mark on the window was concealed but the bottom one wasn't. The ones that had the problem had both reference marks covered up.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_It appears that VW has found the fix for the window problems. Please see this post: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10).
Michael

Thanks to everybody with an EOS who contributed their time and energy observing, testing, and documenting the window issues discussed in this thread.
Michael has provided us with a great guide on understanding and deciding how to best use VW TB's here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2907445
For those of us who haven't received some sort of fix one way or another I am eager to hear your experiences with this solution.


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## eiriksmil (May 9, 2006)

I don't usually post in these threads, but here I feel I have to. I have been reading in the A1, 2 and 3-forums for a long time now, and there's always a problem with those cars, but they are old, it is always some kind of problem with old cars.
However, I read a bit in the Golf V, B6 and Eos-forums and it came to me, are all new VWs full of faults? B6's and Golfs rattle, while Eos windows and doors won't operate as they should have done.
I have been involved with Toyotas and Mitsubishis for a while, and while these cars clearly rattle, there is never anything wrong with them. Soon seven years on, and the car has not been to the dealer with a fault once.
Buying a Volkswagen, a German car, should mean solidness and great quality, shouldn't it? At the same time, I read more about problems than on any other forum. Sure, some problems can be fixed yourself, plastic panels falling off for example, but it shouldn't be happening on a new car.
I like VWs, I like the way they feel, they look and how they look expensive, but I do not like the fact that they are so unreliable.
In addition, dealers seem to lack competence in handling these matters. I am not attacking Volkswagen or anything, I am not saying a Toyota is better, all I'm saying is that this is wrong.
By the way, Michael, are you working with VWs?


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## swordfish1 (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: (eiriksmil)*

Re: Toyota.
I had one of the first Rav4's (last model) a few years ago. It too had teething problems and warranty issues.
I personally love the "what car is that?" looks a new model gets and am quite happy to experience the odd niggling problem.
All I'm saying is that it isn't just VW that have issues with new models of cars (don't get me started on my MG!!







)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (swordfish1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *swordfish1* »_I personally love the "what car is that?" looks a new model gets...

Geez, my Phaeton is three years old, and people are still asking me that question...








... the most common way they phrase it is _"Izzat a new Passat?"_
Michael


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## swordfish1 (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Geez, my Phaeton is three years old, and people are still asking me that question...







... the most common way they phrase it is _"Izzat a new Passat?"_
Michael

In England it's usually "it's lost HOW much money??" with the phaeton. Is the depreciation just an English problem with the Phaeton Michael?








(fantastic second hand buy here by the way)


_Modified by swordfish1 at 12:04 PM 12-20-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (eiriksmil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiriksmil* »_By the way, Michael, are you working with VWs?

No, I don't work for VW, never have... I'm just a VW enthusiast. I work in the aviation industry.

_Quote, originally posted by *swordfish1* »_ Is the depreciation just an English problem with the Phaeton Michael?

No - although it is interesting to note that Phaeton resale values have rebounded in North America lately. The value of the car tanked heavily about a year ago, when VW of A announced they would no longer be importing it to North America. I had a meeting with my VW dealer yesterday to discuss what would happen when my lease runs out in October of 2007. The 'book' value of my 2004 W12 (the lease residual value) is CAD $60K, and I was hoping that perhaps fair market value would be lower than that, thus allowing me to buy the car for less than book value when the lease is up. The reality of the situation is that used 2004 W12 Phaetons with 40 to 50 thousand miles on them are currently selling in Canada for about CAD $75K retail, and about CAD $60K wholesale at this moment. This is an increase of about 30% over the past year... heck, some people were buying NEW, never registered Phaetons for $75K a year ago.
So, it appears that the scarcity of the car may be working in its favour. This is bad news for me - I was hoping to buy out the car and keep it if the price was attractive enough.
Michael


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*original issue....*

Sorry to bother you with the original issue....
Well my car is back in Service today for ATTEMPT #3. This time to replace both window regulators which the Service Manager assures me are new and improved.
There was also another member here who brought his car in yesterday (12/19) to have the same replacement operation.
Have we heard from him? Perhaps it is not finished yet.
I hope they get it finally resolved today and with no additional rattles, dents, scratches, wind noise, water leakage, etc... So far my DSG knob has been scratched and thankfully replaced.
I would hate to have to go down "that other legal road" if this attempt also fails.... My hand might be forced, though.
One other interesting note.... do you remember my posts about my misaligned hood and how there were other cars on the lot with the same problem (over 40% of inventory)? Today they had my originally ordered white one being prepped for delivery with the hood still misaligned and another one replacing it on the showroom floor (a grey one) with yet another misaligned hood. Sad.
I'll update you with my window results before the weekend (I hope).


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
To confirm, VW said the replacement regulators new, improved, and necessary. The improved parts exist.
They ordered the parts and are paying for them to be replaced.
Do you think they are not being 100% honest?
Are they throwing parts at the problem?
This is attempt #3. If it fails, there are other remedies.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: original issue.... (notawagon)*

the other member having his regulators replaced on 12/19 was ialonso.
ialonso.... how did it go?


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*new window regulators are installed....*

I just heard from the dealership SM who called to say the new and improved replacement window regulators have been installed. He said there was a "noticeable difference" that he was happy to see. Since he became a "believer" that a proper fix was needed, he was relieved that this VW recommended fix was an improvement right away.
He says they will take their time and make sure everything is properly adjusted and reassembled to ensure there will be no rattles, leaks, gaps, etc...
I'll hopefully agree tomorrow (Thursday). But to confirm, there are now new and improved replacement window regulators which should help those of you who have had no luck with previous adjustment attempts.
I will also give you the new part numbers. Tomorrow is the first day of winter and the weather here in Northern NJ is supposed to be beautiful. Hopefully I'll be happily driving back from the dealer, top-down, iPod cranking Christmas Music, WINDOWS WORKING PROPERLY.
Hopefully we'll also hear from ialonso about his replacement operation.


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

I am still waiting on my car. My service advisor has not been good to me, and I keep having to painfully extract information from him, as he does not willingly call me. Last I heard today, he will call me at 6pm to let me know, but he asured me it should be done by then. The dealership has had the car since Monday morning. I got a Dodge Stratus from Enterprise as a loaner. At least I have one, but I expected a VW. At least that way the dealership would be forced to experience their own crappy customer service whenever a car needed repair, not to mention, I'd be driving a nicer car.


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: original issue.... (notawagon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *notawagon* »_Sorry to bother you with the original issue....
Well my car is back in Service today for ATTEMPT #3. This time to replace both window regulators which the Service Manager assures me are new and improved.
There was also another member here who brought his car in yesterday (12/19) to have the same replacement operation.
Have we heard from him? Perhaps it is not finished yet.
I hope they get it finally resolved today and with no additional rattles, dents, scratches, wind noise, water leakage, etc... So far my DSG knob has been scratched and thankfully replaced.
I would hate to have to go down "that other legal road" if this attempt also fails.... My hand might be forced, though.
One other interesting note.... do you remember my posts about my misaligned hood and how there were other cars on the lot with the same problem (over 40% of inventory)? Today they had my originally ordered white one being prepped for delivery with the hood still misaligned and another one replacing it on the showroom floor (a grey one) with yet another misaligned hood. Sad.
I'll update you with my window results before the weekend (I hope).

Would you happened to have pictures of it being misaligned? I mean, when you mentioned misaligned, can you clearly see it just like that? Or you have to paying 100% attention to see the misalignment? Pictures worth a thousand words.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: PROGRESS! (notawagon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *notawagon* »_...VW said the replacement regulators new, improved, and necessary. The improved parts exist... Do you think they are not being 100% honest?

About all I can say is what I have learned from experience with the Phaeton over the past few years. That boils down to this:
*1)* VW AG, the parent company in Europe, is very, very well organized and very efficient at getting written solutions for problems sent out (proactively) to the dealer network.
*2)* VW in America is less efficient in this respect.
*3)* I believe that VW (both of them) are fundamentally honest companies. Sometimes I have been given incorrect information, but on further investigation, it has always been found that the incorrect information was provided as a result of ignorance, not with any intent to deceive.
Based on what I have read so far - this thread, and the technical bulletin that VW of A promulgated about how to solve the window problem - I kind of doubt that a new part is needed, 'new' meaning 'a different design' in this context. It is, however, possible that the person who is in charge of fixing your car wants to put a new ('new' in the context of 'virgin, never used before') regulator in your car so as to eliminate any possibility that perhaps the existing part in your car could be bent, damaged, or something like that.
About all I can say is hey, if you break eggs, make an omlette. In other words, tech problems like this can either be a massive headache that causes the owner much stress, frustration, and upset, or, they can be sort of an interesting experience in which you learn a bit about how the car works, and perhaps make some friends at the VW dealer as a result of all the visits to get the thing fixed. I try and take the latter approach, simply because I know that not much good comes from the former approach... the former approach just upsets my serenity, if you know what I mean.
It sounds to me like your dealer is genuinely trying to do the right thing for you, and they do have the tech support team (the regional tech manager, etc.) involved and helping them out. So, just hang in there, and it is very likely that they will get the problem fixed. It shouldn't be too tough to get it fixed, simply because there are 15,000 or so other Eos vehicles on the surface of this earth, and the window adjustment problem is only affecting a small number of them.
Hope this perspective is useful to you.
Michael


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## chon.com (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*

New regulator on the EOS and window works like a charm!!!


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## MitchD1283 (May 24, 2006)

I found that by adjusting the pitch of the glass and the height of the glass works. I did not have to replace the regulator.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MitchD1283)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MitchD1283* »_I found that by adjusting the pitch of the glass and the height of the glass works. I did not have to replace the regulator.

Thanks for that feedback, Mitch. I think that is the gist of what the VW of America technical bulletin is suggesting - if you are having difficulties with the front side windows, you need to carefully evaluate how the window is closing on all three axis (X, Y, and Z), and adjust it as needed.
Here's a direct link to the technical bulletin that VW of A published last week explaining how to fix alignment problems with Eos side windows: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10). I added several illustrations to that post in an effort to make the process more easily comprehensible to owners who are not familiar with how a window regulator (the window guide rails inside the door) works.
Michael


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## Stefan70 (Dec 21, 2006)

The mechanisms of my EOS front windows were just adjusted at the local VW Center (in Germany).
All seemed to be fine - but after several attemps the old and bad settings reappeared! Can it be that the regulators counterbalanced the improved settings of the mechanisms?


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: original issue.... (darien)*

Hello, Darien.
I don't want to distract from the window problem here. You can go to my original thread titled "tilted artwork".
I do have pics but with a cheap camera. However, it is VERY easy to see. My 16 year old son spotted one very easily sitting in their new car delivery area. That customer probably didn't spot it during delivery either...
Stand in front of the car about 5-10 feet away. Bend down slightly so you are not looking down at the hood. You will see the passenger side (US cars) of the hood near and above that headlight has a bigger gap than the other. Or, which is really the case here, the driver's side (US cars) has a much smaller gap, almost making contact with the corner of the headlight. The left hood adjuster will be fully extended, but does not lift the hood enough to resolve it. It was poorly installed and not caught by Final QC (VW words).
I lost count but I believe we have discovered 5 or 6 cars at just this one dealer with this same problem. It's funny how the VW Field Quality Rep and the dealer acknowledged the problem but they did not fix those cars being delivered. Fact.
Buyer beware.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: PROGRESS! (chon.com)*

Excellent.
Which one(s) did they replace?
Do your windows now totally clear the seals when you open the doors?


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: (MitchD1283)*

My dealer tried that on the first attempt and it did not work.
As a matter of fact, initially they tried to tell me verbally and in writing, that the windows were "within spec" and "no trouble found".
I just love when that happens and you can stick it back at them.
Once the SM became a believer and he listened to me and his VERY concerned Tech, he agreed the Tech had lowered the window as far as it could go and that was not enough to improve it.
Combine that with the facts presented from this forum, and they pressured VW into letting them know how to fix it properly.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: PROGRESS! (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
The dealer and I have been told by VW the window regulators are improved versions of the old, designed to fix this problem.
They are not simply new parts being installed to replace defective ones. They are improved ones, upgraded, etc...
The dealer is saying these are improved/upgraded based on what VW is telling him. After asking him several times, he insists they are upgraded versions.
You don't seem to agree.... You don't want to agree? If I give you the part numbers from the new ones, can you confirm they are different from the old ones?
I, for one, am much happier the problem was resolved with an improved part. Replacing a part with a new precise measurement, for example, is much more definite than hoping a Tech can make a better adjustment in the field that may or may not be perfect.
Also, you are assuming this problem is small. We have already seen that other members did not know their cars had a problem because they never used the passenger door themselves. This problem may also be happening to other Eos owners who never visit the vortex. 
Assuming there is no lie and the replacement regulators are new and improved, then the problem must be relatively big. I'm sure VW would not create an upgraded part for only "a small number of them."
I am not complaining about the car and trying to put VW down. But I am also not blindly loyal. So far I have found a problem with a misaligned hood which VW has acknowledged and recitified after several visits. We found this on over 40% of the cars at one dealership. Fact. I have also been part of this thread where several of us had found the window problem and tried numerous times to have it fixed. We want our cars fixed. We don't want to be blown off or belittled. We are enthusiasts and VERY technical.
We do not complain for the sake of complaining. When we have a complaint, we ALWAYS have suggestions on how to fix or improve it.
I will get you those part numbers. Now I want to prove they are different.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*Re: (Stefan70)*

Stefan,
If all they attempted were adjustments that failed, it sounds like they should look into the new and improved upgraded regulators. I will try to get you those part numbers.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Stefan70)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stefan70* »_The mechanisms of my EOS front windows were just adjusted at the local VW Center (in Germany). All seemed to be fine - but after several attemps the old and bad settings reappeared! Can it be that the regulators counterbalanced the improved settings of the mechanisms?

Hi Stefan:
Welcome to the Eos forum.
It is possible that the technician adjusted the windows perfectly, but perhaps did not then carry out the 'basic settings' (re-adaptation) of the window regulators. Or, perhaps he or she thought that they carried out the basic settings, but they were not aware that the procedure for doing this on an Eos is different from the procedure used on every other VW product.
Perhaps have a look at this post: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10). In the second of the two posts that I made there, I provided a description of the rather complex procedure that needs to be carried out to correctly complete the 'basic settings' of the Eos windows. 
In principle, I try to avoid removing and replacing parts if it is at all possible, because of the risk of introducing other problems that is always present when a system is disassembled. Our friends in the medical professions call this iatrogenic damage. In principle, it is always better to attempt to solve a problem by adjusting something _in situ_ before resorting to removal and replacement of a component.
Perhaps ask the technician if he or she carried out the basic settings procedure exactly as it is described in the Eos maintenance manual after they completed the adjustment of your window regulators.
Michael


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

I'm back from the dealer. They will mail my paperwork to me since it wasn;t ready when I got there, and my service advisor was at lunch (He is human after all, and has to eat too)
The passenger window rolls down too much now, and neither of the markings on the rear of the window get under the seal. The front markings line up and get under the window perfectly, with the bottom one barely visible once the window is up. 
Although the adjustment is still not right, at least they adjusted the window. I don't think the tech was aware of the existence of the rear markings, or he would have adjusted acordingly, but so far no wind or water have made it into the car, and it was raining all day.
I need an oil change in 900 miles, so I will ask them then to make the adjustment to make it all right.
I am not happy with the fact that the markings don't line up, but there is no other clue that something is off. It works like a charm.
GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE !
I really wish I had the instructions so I could adjust it properly myself.


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## Stefan70 (Dec 21, 2006)

*Re: notawagon & PanEuropean*

Thank you for the info.
I will contact the VW Center early in January and confront them with the special basic settings for the EOS.
I will inform the forum about the result afterwards.


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## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

*UPGRADED WINDOW REGULATOR PART NUMBERS*

For those of you sick of trial and error field adjustments, here are the upgraded window regulator part numbers which, as per the VW Field Quality Rep, supercede the old ones.
If anyone still doubts this, you are invited to call this dealer, Palisades VW and the SM will answer your questions. He and VW are telling the truth about these UPGRADED parts. To answer your pending question, he does not know when these new parts will make it into production cars nor if they have already.
NEW (updated)
1Q0 837 461 (Left)
1Q0 837 462 (Right)
OLD (bad original)
1Q1 837 401K (Left)
1Q1 837 402K (Right)
My SM says the car is done this morning (3rd day) and the difference is significant. He is as relieved as I am. I will try and pick it up today in the daytime before it rains so I can do a full inspection with the SM.
Hopefully I will agree they are working properly with no further contact with the seals when opened. My SM says they work so well now that even when you open and close the doors at the slowest speed they no longer hit or trap the seals. He says during his test drive, there was no increased wind noise.
For those of you out there who have lived through the trial and error adjustments and have heard that that is the best VW and the dealer can do and you'll just have to live with it, DON'T GIVE UP and DON'T DRINK THE KOOLAID.
You are the cash paying customer. Don't be bullied into accepting "blems", "irregulars", or "2nd quality". When you bought/ordered you car and were choosing options, there was no box to check off saying you would accept less than perfect. I know we all knew what we were geting into when we signed up for such a new car, but VW knew that, too. There have been other members here who have had this repair attempted so many times they have given up and pursued legal paths. Now that you have these part numbers, ask your dealer to fix it correctly. No more trial and error.
To fix my windows, it took (so far) 3 Service visits (including one inspection from the VW Field QTM) for a total of 8 days.
I am hoping for Christmas and for all of you who have been affected, the problem is resolved and that this fix will also work for you.
One final note, too much effort and time have been wasted here if/when we doubt each other. Please don't blow off or belittle each others complaints especially if they are offered with recommended fixes.
The dealer (and some of you) initially belittled the complaints of many here. My first Service visit resulted in the dealer at least being able to resolve the window jumping down 5 inches, but he did not fix the complete problem. As a matter of fact, his RO said the windows were working to spec. Only after I insisted in an adult, professional, polite, technical, and precise way, did he look into fixing it further. 
Some of you have said your windows only occassionally get stuck outside the seal and ride on top of it. You say this as if it's okay. This is 100% not acceptable. It should NEVER do that unless freezing conditions have caused it. Don't let anyone bully you into accepting it.
To his credit, once my SM saw for himself the horrible way the right side window was able to trap the seal, he did not rest until VW gave him the answer how to fix it properly. Once his Technician told him there were no adjustments remaining to be made, he ran with the ball and forced VW to send a different Field QTM ASAP versus making me wait until after the Holidays. 
THAT is how it's supposed to work. If you ever saw how the wealthy, powerful, and influential customers forced BMW to fix their problems with the 7-Series and how BMW responded, that is how it is supposed to work with newly released premium cars.
I hope this has been helpful. I hope my car is now perfect. If so, I will take pictures so you can see (and your trial and error dealers) how the windows should work properly. I fully expect to be driving around Christmas Eve and Day, top down, Christmas music blasting. 
If the windows are still not right, 2007 will be interesting....
Please don't respond negatively or with personal attacks. My intentions are to help improve the Eos and VW and to help my brother members. I have and always will look out for the little guy since I am one too.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: UPGRADED WINDOW REGULATOR PART NUMBERS (notawagon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *notawagon* »_One final note, too much effort and time have been wasted here if/when we doubt each other.

Hi Karter:
I'm not sure that rational discussion of different approaches to solving a problem should be alluded to as 'wasted effort'. Looking back over the thread, it is apparent that we made progress page by page, gathering information, proposing different theories about what the cause was and what the possible solution was.
Some propositions were discarded after discussion, some were not. To me, this is an example of collaborative problem-solving at its best.
I still think that there are three different categories of vehicle out there:
*1)* Those with no problem at all,
*2)* Those with a problem that can be solved by adjustment of existing components,
*3)* Those that may require replacement of a component.
The fact that a component is changed (improved) over time is not, _a priori,_ evidence that there was anything wrong with the component to begin with. This week I had an engine cooling thermostat replaced in my VW. The tech and I were surprised to see that the new thermostat had an integrated connector - meaning, the electrical cable leading out of it was 'built-in' to the thermostat, not a stand-alone plug in part as it was on the original thermostat. However, the thermostat failed because of an internal problem that was unrelated to the cable. It would therefore not be logical to say _"There is a new, upgraded part available - if you are having thermostat problems, this new upgraded part is the fix"._ Nor would it be logical to say _"The thermostat failed because the original design was inadequate, and the fact that the design was changed later is proof that the original design was inadequate."_
Looking at the issue of window function on the Eos, the fact that the majority of cars out there have no window problems suggests that the original component design is satisfactory. The fact that some cars do have window problems - and that these problems can be resolved with adjustment of the existing part, as other owners have reported - proves that adjustment can provide a fully satisfactory fix. But, this does not rule out the possibility that a part may be damaged, or may have a manufacturing defect (not a design defect), and therefore has to be replaced.
The only way that one could objectively prove or disprove a thesis related to part replacement would be to take two Eos vehicles that have window problems and then replace the components in both cars, using original design components in one car and newer design components in the other car. If it was not possible to return the car with original design components back to service, then this would prove that there was a problem with component design. However, the fact that most cars have not encountered problems tends to argue against this.
Something else that we have to keep in mind is that components are often redesigned to reduce manufacturing costs. The controller (ballast) for xenon headlights in many 2004 VW cars originally had a connector on the back of it for a cable. Now, if you order a controller, it comes with the cable built in. This does not suggest that there was anything wrong with the original design - when I asked the factory about it, they told me that it cost less to hardwire the cable into the controller, rather than putting a detachable connector on both ends.
Bottom line: Let's always keep our minds open, curious, and inquisitive, and focus our arguments on *what *is right, not *who *is right. In other words, _reason over passion_.
Michael


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## Johnisme (Jan 4, 2007)

*Another Roof Adjustment*

My roof leaked again and I just got the car back from my dealer for the 2nd adjustment!!!!
Is this a common issue?
I don't think VW has worked out the bugs yet. But I guess one more and I get my money back!








I wonder if the Volvo has the same problem?


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## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Another Roof Adjustment (Johnisme)*

The Volvo's roof is made by the same company as the Eos roof so it's possible.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Another Roof Adjustment (vweosdriver)*

I thought the Volvo roof was by Karman, who used to make the Cabby's roof


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Another Roof Adjustment (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_I thought the Volvo roof was by Karman, who used to make the Cabby's roof

Not sure who makes the roof for Volvo, but the VW salesman told me the EOS roof is made by the same company that makes Mercedes retractables. He told me the manufactures name, but unfortunately I have a memory like a steel sieve.
Keep in mind that even if the roof is manufactured by the same company, each roof is a unique design, and therefore subject to unique pros and cons as well.
Kevin


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

Eos roof by Webasto


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GurnyGub)*

Correct. Webasto is actually a very large company with great experience and great competence in making automotive components. Most people know Webasto from the line of supplemental heaters that they make for winter operations (see here: Standheizungen), however, they are also the primary supplier/manufacturer of sliding sunroofs in other VW products. My Phaeton has a Webasto sunroof in it.
It's quite interesting to note that although we have had lots of discussion about window problems, I don't recall anyone every mentioning a problem with the roof itself.








Michael


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

you mean besides the fact that they leak?


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## Eos Chick (Jan 6, 2007)

*Re: UPGRADED WINDOW REGULATOR PART NUMBERS (notawagon)*

Thanks for providing the part numbers. I will try and get my dealer to order some to have on hand just in case they are unable to fix my front driver and passenger window problems. 
I originally took my Eos in a week ago for leaks from both door pillars. I had never had my car out in the rain before so I really do not know how long my car has been vulnerable to leakage. They decided to adjust both my front windows and told me they had to order some kind of flood/seal tape and would call to have me bring my car in so they could install the tape. (Has anyone heard of this tape and if so, did it fix your problem?) After driving for a few days, I now have both front windows catching a little with the roof seals when opening and closing the doors, and I have phantom operation in my drivers front window. I drove to my dealer and showed them the problems I am having with the windows. I am scheduled to take my car in on Monday for them to work on. Unfortunately for me, I am their first Eos to work on so it looks like trial and error for me for awhile. 
After I visited my dealer I drove straight home and parked in my garage. I made sure that all the windows were in their tracks and locked the car for the night. After about 40 minutes I went back out to get something out of my trunk and found my drivers window down 3/4ths of the way. For obvious reasons (rain, theft, etc.) I am afraid to take my car anywhere right now because of this phantom roll down problem. I do hope that I do not go through all of the troubles some of you have posted here. 
I have been reading through all of the forums I can about the Eos and various problems associated with it. I will post my own experiences as they occur.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (gilesrulz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gilesrulz* »_you mean besides the fact that they leak? 

Think about that comment carefully, Giles. To the best of my understanding, no-one has ever posted a report of a problem with the roof leaking. There have been reports of problems where the Webasto roof meets up with other non-Webasto components (the top of the windshield frame, or the where the side windows meet the roof), but the roof assembly itself appears to be remarkably trouble-free.
Some folks have reported that the technician has replaced roof seals in an attempt to resolve leaks at these points where the roof assembly meets up with the other parts of the car, but my own guess (guess!) is that replacing roof seals is most likely an inappropriate response. We seem to be assembling a growing body of evidence that suggests that if there is a leak detected where the roof meets up with another surface, the answer is to adjust the rigging (the fit, the interface) between the roof and the other surface. The TB that VW released about window rigging (TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10)) is a good example of this. No fault was found with the roof - the fix was adjustment of the windows so that they meet the roof correctly.
I recognize that our forum is an informal, fun place where we all come to relax and enjoy ourselves - not a scholarly, peer-reviewed research publication - but still, let's be careful to not post flip comments that are inaccurate and potentially misleading. If a new person joined the forum today and read your comment, they could easily get the impression that there are problems with the roof assembly. That's really not true. The technicians at the dealer level are not yet finished the 'learning curve' so far as making rigging adjustments in the field goes, but the roof itself - the complex Webasto component - has (touch wood) been remarkably trouble-free so far. That was the gist of the point I tried to make above.
Michael


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Well in my particular case I believe the source of my leaks to be the roof, not where it meets the frame. But to be honest no one knows where the leaks are coming from. One of the exasperating things about trouble-shooting leaks is that water can get anywhere and wants to roll downward, so finding the point of origin is often very difficult.
There have been a few complaints in this forum about mechanical issues with the roof mechanism, and with the roof leaking from the sunroof seals. My intention was not to be flip. It was only to point out that there have been issues with the roof, and that no one can say at this point what the long term reliability will be.
To say that there have been no problems with this roof is also misleading.


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (gilesrulz)*

I was under the impression that the only leaks we've discussed on the entire forum were as a result of a manufacturing defect where the seal was actually formed incorrectly. I've only heard of it happening once or twice though. 
The bulk of this post is in reference to the windows and door seals behaving strangly or meeting improperly. As Michael stated above, the roof hasn't been the problem in this instance because the problem occurs regardless if the roof has been operated recently or not and no misallignment of the roof members have been detected visually or through the dedicated roof control module. While water can indeed get in the car through these errors, they have also occured sporatically in other VW cars in europe and thus appear to be independent of the roof. i believe early in the discussion a Golf V owner from across the sea mentioned as much and may have been one of the first to suggest the pinch protection was partly to blame.
Perhaps a new thread should be started to separate leaks dealing with the roof mechanism and leave this thread for issues with the window seal and adjustment issues.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (aflaedge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aflaedge* »_I was under the impression that the only leaks we've discussed on the entire forum were as a result of a manufacturing defect where the seal was actually formed incorrectly...

I can't say 'for sure', but it appears to me that most of the leaks have been solved by adjustments - primarily of the windows - rather than by replacements of parts. This is what was behind my thinking when I wrote the post above.
I know that some folks have had seals replaced, but that has not always solved the leak problem, which could support the theory that the problem is not with seals, it is with adjustments.
Someday, if someone has time (a lot of it), the most accurate answer could be determined by making an inventory of posts where people have written 'my roof leak has been fixed', and then taking note of what action was most recently carried out. That would probably be the best way to out our finger on what the real cause of the problem is, as opposed to what the owner or technician thinks the cause of the problem is.
If I had to bet money, I would put my money on 'adjustments' as being the culprit / solution. If the problem was specific to one part - a malformed seal, or a improperly positioned seal, or something like that - I am sure that VW would have put out a TB saying 'remove and replace this part', because that kind of fix is quick, cheap, and simple. Instead, the focus of the TBs seems to be on adjustments, which are more expensive and not as simple.
It will be fascinating to look back on this in a year's time and see what turned out to be the cause / solution to the problem.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (aflaedge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aflaedge* »_Perhaps a new thread should be started to separate leaks dealing with the roof mechanism and leave this thread for issues with the window seal and adjustment issues.

There is a lot of merit to that proposal. The only bit I am not sure of is how accurate we can be in classifying problems by causal factor when we don't yet know what the solution is. Giles noted that it is darn difficult to pin down the causal factor of a leak because the water doesn't always manifest itself at the point of entry.
Because of this uncertainty, I wonder if it might be best for the time being to keep putting all the leak related posts here in this thread (the window problem thread), until we have enough experience to determine if there is a common leak problem out there that is not related to windows? Keep in mind that the objective of the thread is not so much to document or report leaks as it is to collect all the pieces of information needed to provide *solutions *for leaks.
I'm not entirely sure - what are your thoughts?
Michael


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

The malformed seal I was mentioning was an isolated incident brought up in another thread where one of the seals on the A arm docking point was mangled but appeared fine from the exterior of the car. That was the only leak that I've heard of which involved a seal contacting the unique mechanisms of the roof.
The reason for starting another thread is that while one of the symptoms of the problems discussed in this thread is leaking, it is not the issue. The issue as you stated Michael is most likely an alignment problem between the window and the seal. The symptoms of this range from pinch protection activation, leaks, cosmetic missalignment, and premature wear on the seals. Thus if there are leaks somewhere else that do not involve rolling up and down the window electronically or opening and closing the door then they deserve a separate topic. While it is true that leaks may be hard to trace, i would hate to come in for a leak in one section of the car and have them work on another section. A doctor cutting my spinal cord because my leg hurt may solve the symptom but not the issue causing it.
If anyone bothers to go back and read the initial page of comments they'll see that this thread wasn't created to address leaks at all but to document my initial experiences with this problem as well as the steps taken to fix it and the results of those fixes. It has expanded to include the experiences of others relating to this issue as well as the symptoms they observed which may be related.
I fear that lumping additional leak stories in here that can't be traced to the window alignment issue will only muddle our path to a solution.


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

*Finally FIXED !*

Finally, my dealer was able to fix my passenger side window. The sad part is that their fix for my car doesn't help anybody else, since the mechanic is not even sure himself on how he fixed it, or what he did different from the other times that he trid and failed to align it.
The called me at 4pm the second day they ha the car to tell me that they were giving up, since they were doing everything per the manual and the window was still crooked, and biting the seal, so they would instead show it to a VW rep that comes by at the end of the month... 30 minutes later they called, and said their last attempt looked pretty good, and they thought they had it, but they wanted me to confirm that it was to my satisfaction before calling it done (WOW ! a gesture I did not expect, their service had not been as cooperative, but I did get the good service advisor this time around )
So, I show up, hoping for the best, ready for the worst, and voila! it works like a charm.
The advisrot told me they had a few cars in with similar types of window seal problem, but he did not say they were as hard to fix as mine... remember my car may have been assembled saturday morning, since earlier in its life we had a nut come off the sway bar assembly too...
Best of Luck to get your problem fixed, I hope you can beat me, and have it done in less than 5 trips.
On my last trip, I also set them up for success, by providing a detailed letter for the tech, as well as the tech bulletin, as well as the picture than Pan European posted with the window Lines, and where they should go on the seal. I think this all helped.
Well, sorry for the LONG post, but I hope this is my last one regarding my own problem on this thread. Look forward to reading about your resolutions, and congratulating you !


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## m1ssp1der (Jul 2, 2011)

*pass. front window*

My window does not go down automatically when I open or shut the door. The window remains on the outside of the convert. top. How was everyones fixed??


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