# Replacement transmission decision



## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

Hi all,
I have an '04 V8 which I purchased in April of last year with just under 80,000 miles. I also bought an extended service contract at the time, 48 months or 48,000 miles, for which I paid 2,450 to a company called National Auto Care. I now have about 94,000 miles on the car.

My transmission had been experiencing a bit of a hitch between 1st and 2nd, which I described to my VW service tech as "passing through neutral". The engine would rev up a couple hundred rpm for a fraction of a second before 2nd gear engaged. From my description he said this was called a "flare shift", and was an indication of more trouble to come with the transmission.

I had the car in for some service last week, and I asked him to test drive it. He initially thought it should get a new valve body, but after doing some research with other VW folks he said the transmission should be replaced. The valve body would temporarily solve the symptoms, but would soon clog up again from debris from internal wear.

He submitted the replacement request to the warranty company, and they sent out their own inspector to view the car. After a test drive, followed by pulling the transmission pan for an internal inspection, they agreed to replace the transmission.

Here's the catch. They (the warranty company) have found and want to use a used transmission. They would install a new torque converter and some new seals, but the rest of the unit would be original, and this replacement tranmission has 70,000 miles on it. They will also pay for the labor to remove and replace it. The installation would be warrantied for 12 months or 12,000 miles, same as a new or rebuilt unit.

I have the option of paying the difference between the used transmission and a rebuilt one from VW, which is about $2000. 

While I'm fairly mechanically inclined, I'm not well versed in the inner workings of automatic transmissions, especially this one. While I wouldn't mind if they found a transmission with 15,000 or 20,000 miles on it, this one seems to me to be just a year or two away from being as worn as the one I have now. Do the new seals and torque converter extend the life of even a used transmission several years, or would this be a bill of goods? The price the warranty company would pay for the used transmission is about $2450, and I'm told the rebuilt unit would be around 4500.

Any comments? Thanks...


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Tortoiseandhaire:

For my 2 cents - I'd replace with a rebuilt unit and pay the extra $2k. I'm assuming you would like to keep the car for a bit more and have not given up on it. A rebuilt transmission from VW is likely a rebuilt unit from ZF and should be as good as new and provide many miles of reliable operation.

Good luck in your decision.

Jim X


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Sound advice Jim X, but here's another scenario:

The OP has 36 months to go and 34k miles. If he plans to dump the car after 36 months, what's the harm with the new/old tranny failing next year, or even 2.5 years from now when he runs out of miles? The warranty will presumably replace it again, *won't it*?

On the other hand if the OP wants to keep the car beyond the life of the warranty, having a "like-new" transmission is already like having half a long-term insurance policy good for quite a few years and presumably at least another 80,000 miles.


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

I've told the dealer to go ahead and order the rebuilt trans from VW. I'll harangue and torment the contract company for awhile to see if I can shame or otherwise convince them it's not even in their own financial best interest to put a used unit with that many miles in the car because, as Itzman has pointed out, seems like they'd have to spend money to replace it again if it fails within the next 34,000 miles.

I don't see anything in the fine print about replacing worn parts with similarly worn parts, so hopefully I can make a case for full restitution, but if not I'd rather pay the difference than go with the unknown.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Additional concerns*

My additional concerns about the used transmission:
- The problem yours had developed is obvious and, so to speak, macroscopic, hence there was no way that the insurance inspector would/could have denied it.
- the used transmission, however, could have some symptoms, such as vibrations, hesitations or less than smooth shifting, that might leave room for interpretation: you might feel they are a clear indication of a defective transmission, while the insurance inspector might feel they are acceptable. Under such a scenario, the insurance might be inclined to deny a second replacement.
- you stated that the transmission they want to install is used, not rebuilt or remanufactured: how could such a transmission be "warranted" for one year or 12kmiles, and by whom? A VW-remanufactured transmission, on the other hand, has VW's backing.
Overall, I would go for the VW one and pay the difference: $2k, while not a small amount, is not exorbitant for such a major repair, especially considering the amount of labor involved.
just my two bits.
Stefano


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

My '04 has a 1 -2 "flare shift" issue exactly like the OP but only after the car has reached normal operational temperature. Think I'll copy the original post and revisit my local VW dealer with the hope that they can get a Fidelity (VW Real Driver Platinum) rep out to authorize a new/rebuilt transmission for my car as well (51,000 miles). My tech is fully aware of the problem and we both agree that sooner or later something big is going to happen inside my transmission (it started "flair shifting" last Fall). We were both basically waiting for the trans to completely fail before contacting Fidelity hoping to avoid the usual insurance run around that is so often a part of any insurance claim - especially as the car is still drivable. With your post in hand my tech and I might have a little advantage when contacting Real Driver (Gee, National Auto Care sent a rep out, inspected the car and authorized a fix). We'll see .
RB


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

RB:

My 2004 V8 Phaeton had very harsh downshifting problems while I was under VW CPO warranty. VW was not real keen on replacing the transmission until it actually failed. I didn't want to wait for a failure for fear of getting stranded six galaxies from a VW dealer with a Phaeton tech. in addition, Phaetons are too refined to tolerate bad behavior from their transmissions - it destroys the ambience of the vehicle.  In any event the transmission did finally "fail." However, the failure was nothing more than going into limp mode after it appeared to enter into neutral as I accelerated into a freeway cloverleaf. Once it did this, I assume a transmission error code was resident in memory, which could be used to authorize the repair. 

I bet you have been babying your transmission due to the "flare shifting." I know, I probably would do the same despite what I'm going to say now. However, my recommendation to you is drive the car normally or even somewhat aggressively. Don't let up on the accelerator when it shifts - keep pushing. If it "slips" or hesitates too much, I believe the diagnostics will recognize this and enable limp mode and leave an error code. If it leaves an error, they will fix it but sometimes not until. Their attitude is that it still functions, which is true.

Good luck.

Jim X


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

While my transmission would occasionally have a 'thud' when downshifting during rapid deceleration/braking, it never did the flare shift while driving aggressively or while in Sport mode. If the upshift from 1st to 2nd occured at 3000 or 4000 rpm it was smooth as silk. The flare shift always happened when shifting at 2000 rpm or below during normal, calm driving, so I'm not so sure a more aggressive driving style would hasten a code or limp mode. But, on the other hand, I also noticed that on normal acceleration from a dead stop it seemed to hesitate when I first stepped on the throttle before fully engaging first gear, so maybe some jackrabbit starts would elicit some error codes.


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

*transmission replacement*

Stopped by the dealer yesterday to check on the progress of my transmission replacement. As it turned out, the car was on the hoist in the midst of engine/transmission removal, and the new transmission had just arrived in a big wooden box. They were in the process of prying the lid off to look inside. I just happened to have a camera in my shirt pocket, so stayed for an hour or so to take these shots.

The new (rebuilt) transmission. I had them supply the rebuilt rather than the used one the insurance company was offering. I’ll haggle with them over the difference in the days and weeks to come.









All the topside disconnecting had already been done before lifting the car, and the mechanic was disconnecting various coolant, oil and transmission fluid lines.









Disassembly instructions were provided on the hoist-side computer screen.










They then brought in a huge lifting table to support both the engine and transmission so they could be unbolted from the car’s frame and lowered down. The table is split in the middle so that once the transmission is unbolted from the engine it can be slid off fully supported. The new transmission then takes its place for reassembly and finally raising back up into the car. Specific mounts depending on the car model and engine are fastened to the table.










There’s always something left undone – an oxygen sensor wire had to be disconnected via the stepladder route before lowering the engine the rest of the way.










And there it is.










The transmission assembly is actually longer than the engine. They’ll probably have to remove the exhaust pipes so that the back half of the table can be moved back once the transmission is unbolted. There are nuts and bolts all over the place, but the mechanic assured me there wouldn’t be any leftovers by the time he had it all back together.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Wow, that's one honking big piece of machinery right there!

Best of luck with the reassembly. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

great post, informational photo's :thumbup:

keep us posted about the progress.

Aart


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

*Installation finished*

I returned to the dealer the next day to find the new transmission bolted to the engine. The technician was working on bolting down the torque converter, which involved theading in the bolts through the opening left by removing the starter motor. He commented that if the starter failed it would probably require engine removal to replace it, as the engine mount curves around the starter.

New transmission in place









Reaching through the opening for the starter motor









New transmission attached










Once the transmission reassesmbly was complete and the exhaust was back in place, the engine was raised back into the car. There was quite a pile of other parts lying about on the floor that had to go back on, though.









This was on a Friday, and after final assembly they wanted to do some test driving, and also realign the front end. The car was ready for me to pick up on Monday. I'm glad to be back in the Phaeton, especially after driving around in the Jetta loaner car for the past week. Shifting is smooth, everything seems to be as it should be, and I left with car wash and Starbucks coupons in hand.

Now if I can get the insurance company to pony up the difference between the used transmission they offered and the rebuilt I had installed, all will be well.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

tortoiseandhare said:


> He commented that if the starter failed it would probably require engine removal to replace it, as the engine mount curves around the starter.


There was a thread about this subject on this forum a number of years ago. Yes, the engine has to be removed. If I recall correctly, the takeaway went like this:

New starter for Phaeton: $300
Installation of said new starter, including removing and reinstalling the engine: $3,000
German engineering: Priceless. Literally.


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

*transmission update*

The newly rebuilt transmission that was installed a few months ago quickly developed a flare shift problem of its own, upshifting from 2nd to 3rd. This only ocurred when the car was cold - once it did its flare shift, it was fine until it sat for at least 4 hours, then it'd do it again. VW changed the ATF to another type in hopes that would solve the problem. It didn't. Figured I'd better get something done while the trans was still within its 12,000 VW warranty, so took the car back in last week. They did their own test driving, confirmed the problem, then uploaded a software update to the TCM and ECM. A subsequent test drive showed that it now shifted even worse. The next step was to switch to yet another ATF, flushing the transmission 3 times. On the repair order, the new ATF is listed as G-055-162-A2 ATF OIL. I picked the car up yesterday afternoon and all seemed fine, but the real test will be later today when it goes through the gears cold.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Itzmann said:


> There was a thread about this subject on this forum a number of years ago. Yes, the engine has to be removed. If I recall correctly, the takeaway went like this:
> 
> New starter for Phaeton: $300
> Installation of said new starter, including removing and reinstalling the engine: $3,000
> German engineering: Priceless. Literally.


I had my transmission replaced and the technician did not need to remove the motor. Replacement of the starter does not require removal of the motor also. Unfortunately factory documentation does not support this but it can be done.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...2L-6-speed&p=73530045&viewfull=1#post73530045 

Damon


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## rrussell (Sep 9, 2003)

My buddy Chris removed and replaced my Transmission too.


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

The flare shift from 2nd to 3rd is still there in my rebuilt/replaced transmission, but only when starting out cold in the morning. After software flashes and multiple fluid changes and flushes, it's still there. Normally with a rebuilt item with a problem, they have to replace the entire item - the trans - but they have seen the financial light and will bend the rules by replacing the valve body - almost certain this is where the hitch is. Two weeks for delivery from Germany.


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

*flare shift continues*

The dealer installed a new valve body on the rebuilt transmission, new fluid again and said it was shifting fine. Next morning the flare shift was there, as strong as ever between 2nd and 3rd. And as before, it's fine for the rest of the day once it does it cold. But now it seems even a bit more severe than when first noticed.

My initial thought, and one I'm going back to even though I don't know much about the transmission internals, is that there is a gear or a bushing slightly loose on a shaft inside the transmission - when first starting out the impact of the 2nd to 3rd flare shift forces it into place, where it remains until everything cools off. The next day the cycle is repeated.

I've now got 10,000 miles on my 12,000 mile warranty on this unit, so it's going back to the dealer next week. Since I paid the extra bucks for the VW rebuilt unit, I'll hold their feet to the fire to make it right. They have been very good about trying to fix it, including the new valve body. I don't know if there are any other procedures short of replacing the transmission at this point. Anybody else have ideas?

~Loren


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I think your dealer's co-operation and support is the most valuable part of this experience.

The actual fault could still be software-related, even just possibly related to the data coming out of the engine ECUs during warm-up, but in the absence of any factory guidance I can't see that being tracked down before another transmission gets put in.

If it was me, I would try for a 2nd 'new' transmission. The car should have years of reliable daily street life, not to mention a decade after that of pleasure use, but I wouldn't want to have to fund a new transmission myself at 150k miles, especially after having put up with a few years of nagging doubt...


Good luck,
Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Somebody posted a detailed description a couple of weeks ago of exactly how the hardware and software works in this transmission, and I seem to remember it pinpointed the exact cause of various fault symptoms, albeit in terms of clutches and shaft speeds, which may not be a great deal of help in solving the problem. Might be worth printing and taking to the dealer though, I don't remember which thread it was in.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Umm - they are getting the fluid level right, right? Using a scan to monitor the ATF temperature, and checking the overflow level as it passes 40C?

No doubt Granny knows perfectly well how to suck eggs. Whatever that means. eace:


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## sgtstrev (Oct 6, 2011)

As a idea i wonder if an e-mail to Zf in germany would help 
They must have a trouble shooting procedure , a step by step series of options that you and your garage could run thru to try and cure your fault .

my pennies worth :wave:

1. It would seem that it might be fluid temp related as it only seems to do it when cold 
2. could it be to do with other engine parameters that are fed to the transmission ecu , it must recieve engine load , throttle position etc 
3. another idea might be that somewhere in the transmission fluid may be draining back somewhere , possibly in the valve body i no you have had this replaced already but did this come from the same place as the rebuilt transmission ? and maybe this has not been overhauled correctly 
i work in the aviation industry and even aircraft parts come back from overhaulers and regularly fail instillation tests , due to incorrect repair procedure 
4. also has the torque converter been replaced these cause defects during cold operation 

All the above are as i said just my pennies worth :wave:

I understand the frustration as have been thru this with previous cars fitted with ZF transmissions can send you screwy thinking about it :screwy:

Good luck Strev


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

tortoiseandhare said:


> .............. But, on the other hand, I also noticed that on normal acceleration from a dead stop it seemed to hesitate when I first stepped on the throttle before fully engaging first gear, so maybe some jackrabbit starts would elicit some error codes.


Loren:

Sorry that this is a reply to an old post but something I originally missed just caught my attention. I believe the above phenomenon is somewhat "normal" as the 6 speed ZF transmission was designed to be energy efficient and save fuel. As I understand it, this transmission does kick out of gear at a dead stop and the transmission essentially freewheels. In doing so it is somewhat akin to having a manual transmission disengaged via the clutch. Thus, when you touch the accelerator from a dead stop the hesitation and "lurching" is due to the fact that it is re-engaging 1st gear. I know mine does this too and it makes me much more gentle on the first throttle push to start moving our heavy Phaetons.

As I've posted previously, i had my transmission replaced by VW. My replacement has been flawless and has returned my Phaeton to its original driving splendor. So I really feel for you and your tribulations trying to get things right. My hat goes off to your warranty company for essentially funding this exercise.

For my pennies worth, I'd look elsewhere for the problem as I find it fairly unlikely that a rebuilt ZF transmission would give you essentially the same flaw that was evident in the original. A rebuilt ZF transmission would be tested before it was shipped out so I'd make sure that your engine is in excellent tune and there are no vacuum leaks anywhere. Also the wiring harness to the transmission could be checked to make sure the proper signals from the engine are being sent to the transmission control unit. 

Best of luck on this stubborn problem.

Jim X


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Jxander said:


> Loren:
> 
> Sorry that this is a reply to an old post but something I originally missed just caught my attention. I believe the above phenomenon is somewhat "normal" as the 6 speed ZF transmission was designed to be energy efficient and save fuel. As I understand it, this transmission does kick out of gear at a dead stop and the transmission essentially freewheels.


I don't get this with mine, even when cold.

P.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Zaphh said:


> I don't get this with mine, even when cold.
> 
> P.


Pierre:

Interesting as I assumed they would all do it, although the response to the accelerator could be somewhat unique from car to car. However, it does apparently disengage at a complete stop as stated in the following from Wikipedia.



> The ZF 6HP26 uses a Lepelletier epicyclic/planetary gearset, which can provide more gear ratios with significantly fewer components. This means the ZF 6HP26 is actually lighter than its 5-speed predecessors. It also has the capability to achieve torque converter lock-up on all six forward gears, and *disengage it completely when at a standstill*, dramatically closing the fuel efficiency gap between automatic and manual transmissions.


I guess it's no wonder that dealers seem to be very creative with what is normal behavior on their cars. 

Jim X


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

Jxander said:


> Loren:
> 
> ... I'd look elsewhere for the problem as I find it fairly unlikely that a rebuilt ZF transmission would give you essentially the same flaw that was evident in the original... Jim X


The original transmission did a flare shift between 1st and 2nd, all the time. The new one does the flare shift between 2nd and 3rd, only when cold. And only once! The engine or transmission fluid doesn't have to warm up for it to go away. Once it's done the flare shift, I can immediately pull over, start out again and it shifts just fine. It'll also do the flare shift upon first movement even if the engine has been left idling and warmed up. The flare shift doesn't recur unless the car has been sitting for at least 5 or 6 hours.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Jxander said:


> Pierre:
> 
> Interesting as I assumed they would all do it, although the response to the accelerator could be somewhat unique from car to car. However, it does apparently disengage at a complete stop as stated in the following from Wikipedia.
> 
> ...


Whether it disengages or not at complete stop, the car reacts IMMEDIATELY whenever I just touch the throttle. In fact, my car really has a lot of "oomph", as we would say in British English, up to the point that it is discomfortable if I don't pay attention to it...
It requires a lot of delicateness to start when the traffic light goes to green with a normal acceleration. I need to dose my effort on the accelerator very well so as not to surge from the traffic.

So no, I don't get ANY flare or whatsoever. The car is immediately responsive, and I don't believe the transmission disengages, as I need to keep my foot on the brake to prevent the car from going forward (this is convenient when stopped uphill : no need to be quick to go from brake to accelerator : the car will not move backwards).

However, I am quite disappointed that the transmission does not disengage when going downhill for instance. A friend of mine has a Volvo and when I got to drive it, I was surprised to see that when going downhill, the rpm went down to idle (this is not the case with the phaeton, when the transmission still gets the engine to rev when going downhill). I think more economy could be obtained by preventing the car from braking with the engine when going downhill.

P.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Pierre,

Your report is disconcerting - the throttle response on my V10 is sedentary to the point of being chauffeur-like, it is so smooth and stately from rest. It probably does accelerate as fast as the rest of the traffic, but it feels as if it's at its own pace, not mine. Maybe that's turbo lag, because if you persist with the throttle you will practically launch into space, but not below 20mph or so.

The engine speed sits steady during all this at maybe 1400rpm and nothing you do to the throttle short of kick-down (unwise) will make any difference. Shift into 2nd occurs after only 1 second or so from rest.

I have got used to this, and have no wish to stress the transmission, but occasionally I miss the instant response I get from the 3-litre petrol XG, which you need to wear soft shoes to control from rest! And that's a 2.2 ton car laden. On that car you can adjust the start-up response by adjusting the accelerator sensors, then the ECU alters the way it runs the throttle motor.

I assume there's little one can do with the Phaeton?

Chris


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I think it's most likely down to the turbo lag in the diesel Phaetons - mine is quite sedate when moving off whereas my Passat needs a very gentle pressure to move off otherwise it can get quite jerky.

Harry


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Paximus said:


> ...Maybe that's turbo lag, because if you persist with the throttle you will practically launch into space, but not below 20mph or so.


If I floor the throttle from stand still (i.e. while still in 1st gear and not yet in 2nd), I get for an instant a blackout sensation due to the blood being forced to the back of my body (and I know what I'm talking about: I fly aerobatics).

A skinny and frail friend of mine nearly passed out after he asked me to show him what a car could do. This was in town, between two traffic lights separated by 500 yards. I must have reached 60mph before braking back to a stop. The car was empty, (there was only the two of us) and the petrol tank was nearly empty. The thing was VERY impressive.


> ...
> I assume there's little one can do with the Phaeton?
> Chris


Buy a V8 or W12.

P.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks Harry and Pierre, It's surely not a problem and there's a vast amount of power available when you need it at the right times.

But maybe I'll have a think about a W12! Except they are as rare as hen's teeth in these parts. And I doubt there's more than a handful of V8's in the UK, both the ones I have seen were US imports via the Baltic countries.

Anyway, I enjoy the V10 immensely, such a feeling that 'something in the world is right' when I get in it!

Cheers,
Chris


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Thinking of why the V8 is so jerky, I think that the 1st gear is too short. The car never goes back to 1st gear once it is rolling. The 1st gear is here just to get the car going, so even though it does 1-60mph in 7.3 seconds or so, it does 1-20mph in no time if you floor the throttle from a standstill (and therefore using 1st gear until 20mph).


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

*re-replacing the transmission*

Replacing the valve body did not solve the problem. I returned the car to the dealer, along with video clips of the last 5 days flare shifts, showing the tach jump when shifting to 3rd. They again checked fluids, test drove the car when cold, and ordered a new transmission. Should arrive sometime next week.


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## tortoiseandhare (Apr 8, 2010)

*transmission replaced*

The replacement transmission arrived and my dealer had it replaced in about 3 days time. They kept it for an extra day to do a test drive when completely cold and reported that it was shifting flawlessly.

The next morning I took off down the road from a cold start and - yikes - it did a flare shift between 2nd and 3rd, just like the previous one. It wasn't quite as severe, and sometimes it doesn't do it, but it's definitely still there. And as before, once it happens it then shifts flawlessly the rest of the day. 

I haven't been back to the dealer yet. It seems to me that so far they have made every attempt to fix the problem, and I don't know what's left. Before replacing the transmission they replaced the valve body - and before that they flashed upgraded software to the transmission control module and replaced the ATF with a newer spec to match the software - including a triple flush to rid all the old fluid. Could it be a component of the TCM that is not affected by software upgrades causing this?


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Just a thought, but if everything to do with the transmission has been replaced, perhaps the fault lies elsewhere. Have you asked them to check whether the engine management is up to date...

Harry


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## Boosted2003! (Mar 10, 2009)

dlouie said:


> I had my transmission replaced and the technician did not need to remove the motor. Replacement of the starter does not require removal of the motor also. Unfortunately factory documentation does not support this but it can be done.
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...2L-6-speed&p=73530045&viewfull=1#post73530045
> 
> Damon


Correct. I worked at dealership that had tech able to do replacement of trans without engine removal. I find the older techs that went to the Phaeton schools when they came out seem to know a lot more tricks then new techs.


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