# MK2 Audi Big Brake upgrades



## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Hey there I want to upgrade my 92 gti's brakes.. what audi model and year brakes could be used.. and what hardware is needed? 

whole hubs? 
just rotor and caliper? 

do I keep my master cylinder? 

What is the most cost friendly / user friendly? 

Thanks personal experience would be great!


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

bump for me!


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

What size brakes are on the car already?


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

stock 92 16v brakes ?


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

16v should already have 10.1" front brake rotors. This means that Corrado G60 Girling 54 11" front 4-bolt brake calipers and rotors are a bolt-on. Or Audi 5000T Girling 60 dual piston calipers with Corrado G60 11" 4-bolt rotors will also be bolt-on.


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

thanks! I will check that out... I have a neighbor that says he could get deals on oem audi parts, whether he will come through or not idk. 

but thanks for the info! I will definitely be looking for these in the j/y!


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Even at cost, new Audi brake calipers and carriers are going to cost you many times what it would to buy used calipers if you can find them. The Corrado G60 Girling 54 4-bolt setup uses standard early (93-95) VR6 calipers, BUT the carriers are only found on the Corrado G60s (supercharged), and a few Passats (93-94 VR6). VW gets about $140 each for the caliper carriers alone. The Audi Girling 60 calipers and carriers are almost as rare, and more expensive new, than the Corrado G60 Girling 54s are. 

I've only found a couple sets of each type of brake calipers for sale in the six local self-service salvage yards in over two years of looking. 

If you're interested, I have a good used set of the Audi 5000T Girling 60 calipers and carriers for sale for $110 shipped, and a set of used Corrado G60 Girling 54 calipers with carriers for $100 shipped (calipers are mismatched from different production generations, but work fine together). 

I can send photos, if you PM me your email address.


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

sure I'll check out the audi ones(I'm ocd when it comes to matching parts) 
my email is [email protected] 

u have no rotors?


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

*Does master cylinder really need to be upgraded?*

I'm doing the same Audi Girling 60 upgrade and too am wondering if the master cylinder needs upgrading. I have read that the 25mm off a 1990 Audi 90 coupe quatro would be the largest piston available. It's super expensive from my research can run 250-300 bucks....... 

Can a 22mm Master (from 2.0 MK3) be used assuming its in new condition. I do understand hydraulics and that the pedal travel will increase..... I replaced mine less than 20K miles ago..... 

btw: 

Audi 200 Girling 60 calipers and carriers (G60's-NOT FROM CORRADO G60 as these are G54 Lucas-You could run those if you want though-single piston design) 
Audi 200 brake pads, I bought Mintex red box 
I can provide the part number on the brake lines when I get home. They are prob 15 inches long....... 

I have not done the swap yet as I am waiting on info for the Master Cylinder. I am sure on the rotors, calipers, carriers and pads. Not 100% the lines will work but i'm hoping as they are stainless. 

I bought the kit from a friend who was going to upgrade his MK3. 
Btw you def want to check your existing setup as even 16V gti's I think came with vented 9.4" discs. If the carrier is integrated with the hub (not bolted) you will need steering knuckes from a 93-99 golf/jetta. These are easy to find.


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

*the carrier is integrated with the hub* I found that out the hard way a while back when I got a hub from a jetta when a bearing went bad... these things need special axles too!  

So what I would need is.. 
audi 200/5000t girling 60 or 54 Lucas 
audi 200/5000t pads 
corrado rotor 

So with lines and master cylinder I'm still a little curious 

if I'm going to do things I want to do it right first time... if possible 

Thanks for input! I am much more informed


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

*Anyone tried 1993 Audi 90 mastter cylinder??This car uses Girling 60's from factory.....*

Yeah I thought your 16V might have carriers integrated with hubs. The axles on your car should work just fine with e A3 hub assembly. I did the swap to the A3 hub with 10.1" brakes a few years back and used my original axles. 

In terms of the G54 vs. Girling 60 (G60's) calipers........The pads are ot the same. The Girling 60 pads will be from either a 5000T or 200 Turbo (non UFO brakes). Look on German auto parts for each. The Girling 60 pads have a stainless steel rattle clip bolted to the pad with 2 allen screws. The Lucas G54 pads look to be different, I would guess the Corrado G60 pads are what you need if you run G54's. Either setup will use the Corrado G60 4x100 rotors,. 

Btw Has anyone tried using a 1993 Audi 90CS Master cylinder??? GAP says this one is a 23.81mm piston. That would be more than sufficient to run the Girling 60's. Btw, my dad has this exact car and it has Girling 60 front calipers from the factory........Plus rear calipers are also a dual piston design. If we could use this master cylinder (non abs of course) it would be only 130 bucks as opposed to 250-300 for the 25mm coupe 90 master. Anyone tried this???


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Corrado G60 Girling 54 11" brake calipers DO NOT USE THE SAME BRAKE PADS AS Audi Girling 60 10 5/8" brake calipers. When installed on a VW, the Girling 60s are used with Corrado G60 11" 4-bolt rotors, BUT THE ROTORS ARE NOT AN EXACT FIT, close to 3/16" of the brake pads will hang off the inside edge of the rotor. 

If you want a master cylinder with a larger ID, buy the Meyle brake master cylinder from europartsdirect.com or autohausaz.com for about $45. This is a very nicely built alloy bodied part. I can't find any confirmation, but I suspect that it's 23.81, since that's what VW uses on VR6 cars, and the same master cylinder is listed by Meyle for both ABA and VR6 cars. I will say that my friend's 96 Jetta Trek's brakes are the best MKIII ABA brakes I've stepped on since we installed the Meyle master cylinder.


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

CrankDaBewstmun said:


> In terms of the G54 vs. Girling 60 (G60's) calipers........The pads are not the same. The Girling 60 pads will be from either a 5000T or 200 Turbo (non UFO brakes). Look on German auto parts for each. The Girling 60 pads have a stainless steel rattle clip bolted to the pad with 2 allen screws. The Lucas G54 pads look to be different, I would guess the Corrado G60 pads are what you need if you run G54's. Either setup will use the Corrado G60 4x100 rotors,.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

Found the $45 master cylinder from Autohaaz. It's a stock A3 Meyle which will be 22mm. GermanCarnut, does your buddies Jetta Trek run the Girling 60's using this master? How is the pedal travel/feel? More than stock brakes i assume?


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

hmm alright so I'm on my search for g60 calipers and 11" rotors.... I will also grab 2 mk3 spindles(time to go to the yard!) 

and as for the a3 MC.... $45 brand new? sure why not.... waitng for germantcarnuts reply ^^^


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

The MKIII VR6 master cylinder is 23.81 from what I understand. Meyle sells the same master cylinder for both ABA and VR6. That would make the Meyle master cylinder 23.81. My friend's Jetta Trek is a ABA with stock 10.1" front brakes and rear drum brakes. His old master cylinder was shot, and the brake pedal would sink to the floor. With the Meyle master cylinder installed, the pedal is higher and firmer that any other MKIII I have ever driven. Pedal travel is shorter.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

I have a set of Corrado G60 11" front brake calipers with carriers. The calipers are mismatched (one appears to be original, and the other is a later model), and the caliper carriers are both correct. You can have them for $110 shipped, including the PayPal Fees. I'll even throw in a TRW caliper seal kit I bought (according to the parts books, this kit is only supposed to fit one of the two calipers).

In looking in salvage yards for two years for Corrado G60 front brakes or Audi Girling 60 front brakes, I've seen a total of (2.5) sets of Corrado G60 front brakes and (3) sets of Audi Girling 60 front brakes. If you're going to wait till you find some to upgrade your front brakes, I hope you're prepared to search and wait a long time...


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## BiH (Nov 27, 2000)

I looked at a 95 audi 90 and the caliper said Lucas 60 I think. is that the same caliper? there is actually 3-4 audi 100's and one audi 90 quattro at my junkyard. worth taking them off or no?


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

I'm not sure about the Lucas 60........always thought it was Girling 60....That's what mine says. 

I looked at my dad's 93 90CS and it does have the girling 60 dual pistons on it. 

Taken from: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/a3b4/girling_g60.htm

"Sources for girling g60 brake parts: The girling g60 can be found from 1989-1991 Audi 200 turbo quattro, 92-94 Audi turbo quattro, 1990-1994 Audi V8, 1992-1994 Audi 100 V6, 1987-1988 Audi 5000 quattro turbo, 1984-1988 Audi 5000 turbo, and 1993-1995 Audi 90 V6. Piston bore is 60mm. In any case, part numbers are below."

I would def get them from the junkyard. Maybe unbolt and try liining up the carrier on an A3 if they have one there?? Rotors need to be corrado G60 to work as Audi used different bolt pattern on 4 bolt non-quatto. Quattros were 5 lug.


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## BiH (Nov 27, 2000)

ok maybe it said girling 60 not sure it was hot that day and we where changing the axle. I will hit the junk yard again and if they are still there I will snag them. all I want is the calipers, no carriers right?


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

Must get the carriers too, Girling 60 carrier is much larger than VW A3 stock. What car is this going on btw?


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## vivalamexico (Dec 29, 2003)

Just for the record no 16v Gti's came with 10.1's as stock only the 2.0L 16v Jetta GLI's. You've got 9.4 vented. The cheapest, and also lightest option as far as unsprung weight is concerned is a nice fluid flush and better pads. Try some ATE super blue fluid and EBC greenstuff pads.

Whats up germancarnut thanks for the carriers! Euro parts direct screwed me over btw canceled my order and never called me... Word to the wise if you order from them make sure your billing and shipping addresses mtach or they wont ship. They also wont tell you about till you call them and inquire where your package is.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

I've never had a problem with europartsdirect.com, and I've ordered parts shipped to a different address than the billing address for the credit card or ATM card that I use several times. There must be more to it than simply different addresses. Are you sure your gave the the correct three digit from the back of the card? That will always cancel an order if you get the number wrong.

And yes, late 1.8L 16V came with 10.1" brakes. My friend's MKII 16V GTI did. I don't remember the model year though...


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Not only is the bolt pattern different (5-bolt on Audis), the rotor size is different. The rotors on the Audis are 10 5/8" diameter, which is why the Girling 60s overhang the Corrado G60 rotors. If you go with the Girling 60s, you have to decide how to deal with the brake pad problem before installing the Girling 60s. You're going to have to cut or grind the Audi brake pads down so they don't overhang the rotors when they're on the car.


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## vivalamexico (Dec 29, 2003)

Nope I called europarts and both the rude lady and the rude man I talked said it was a new policy to deal with fraud and the differing addresses were why it was canceled. I can guarantee that no 1.8L 16v GTi's came with 10.1s only late model GLI's (90-92) and 16v Sciroccos but definitely not GTI's. There are tons of vortex threads that cover this unfortunately the new forums don't have all the old threads available.

if you still don't believe me look up front discs for a mk2 gti on germanautoparts youll see that every model including 1.8 and 2.0L have 9.4s.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Sorry to hear you had problems ordering from europartsdirect.com. Now I wonder how long this new policy has been in affect, whether it's being applied to existing customers, and if I'm going to have a problem ordering in the future. I've been buying from them for about 3-4years, and never had a problem before. 

Did you try autohausaz.com? They're prices are actually lower on some items, they have the Meyle master cylinder for close to the same price, and they accept PayPal (europartsdirect.com does not accept PayPal). An extreme example of price difference is the caliper seal kits for Girling 54s (fit MKIII 10.1", Corrado G60 11", and VR6 up to at least 95). Two different TRW kits for different versions of the 54 size calipers are available from autohausaz.com for $5.29, or $5.79 each kit (kit does two calipers). Same kit is $16.80 from europartdirect.com. Most price differences are $2 or less, sometimes europartsdirect.com is less, and sometimes it's autohausaz.com.

I see what you mean about the parts catalogs only showing 9.4" brakes on MKII Golf and GTI. I could swear that my friend's 16V GTI had 10.1" front brakes on it. Maybe he had an upgrade done or it was a special edition?


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## vivalamexico (Dec 29, 2003)

Definitely an upgrade. I use autohausaz a lot shipping is faster here to socal. It was just frustrating because I had to order some parts from germanautoparts and the rest from europarts and now I have half my parts to complete my job and the other half is still in limbo till I can save up more cash.


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

Yeah I agree that 16V GTI's did not come with 10.1 stock. My MKII 8V GTI has SOLID 9.4's........haha

Many cars may have been upgraded to the 10.1 setup, it's really hard to know. Best bet is to look for an integrated caliper carrier. If the carrier isn't bolted to the hub, you've got the 9.4 setup. 

The 10.1 is a good setup. I had to do a panic stop just a couple days ago with my MKII GTI and had no problems. Some old dude had a hard time seeing a BRIGHT RED car coming his way........ughhhh elderly drivers. Luckily I reacted quickly and no one was being me.....could have been the end....

If you're going to spend the money on the 10.1 setup you might as well go girling 60. You'll have to get new pads/rotors for the 10.1. At that point you can buy the 11 inch stuff. They are heavier.....soooo it's a tradeoff. But they look so SWEET 

So can the pads just be trimmed where they overhang?? Or maybe use them a bit and keep an eye on them? Are there any negative effects by letting them overhang? I'm about to do this swap in a couple weeks.


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## vivalamexico (Dec 29, 2003)

Remember if you are going 11" you need at least 15" wheels and they have to have the proper offset. 
My recommendation is go 10.1 if you need to have bigger brakes. Anything larger unless you are tracking it with a larger lump up front (turbo, vr, etc) its just adding unneeded unsprung weight. Also the master cylinder is largely a personal feel thing. 
The 22mm MC will provide a firmer pedal with less travel and better modulation some people are freaked out by how stiff the pedal actually gets. I know people have left the 20mm with perfectly acceptable results.
Remember the smaller MC will actually provide higher specific braking force, its a fairly simple physics concept that has once again been covered many times on the vortex.


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

vivalamexico said:


> Remember if you are going 11" you need at least 15" wheels and they have to have the proper offset.


Hey have you run stock vw 15 inch wheels with girling 60's? I plan on running BBS RA's from a 90 GLI and some aftermarket 15 inch ASA I have with sticky tires. What type of offset would you say is acceptable? RA's are mmmmm 38mm, I imagine the ASA are at least 35mm.


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## turbomkII (Jul 25, 2005)

skip the 23mm i spent the last 3 months trying to track down the right 23mm audi master cylinder with no luck. i had help from quite a few people in the process and nothing was found. dont waste your time a 22mm will do just fine.


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## vivalamexico (Dec 29, 2003)

I have a super rare set of mti 3 piece wheels basically RS's that were ET28 and they fit no problem. Im of the notion that 35ish and up would be just fine.


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## jstn (Jun 18, 2008)

so what's the word on the brake lines for this swap?

i swapped my girling 60s into my mk3 and was able to use the factory lines but i'd prefer to have another inch or so of line. i have heard that the lines from the audi 5000 turbo will work (they are a tad longer) but can anyone confirm this?

justin


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

*Line part #*

I got SS lines when I bought my caliper setup. 

1H0 611 701 SS

19 inches long.

Haven't tried the kit yet. Not sure where the lines came from, as they were sold together.

Brief online search says they are for Jetta 93-99, so not sure.


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

*Finally Got the Girling 60's installed*

It's been a while, but I wanted to update this thread from my experiences with the swap. 

The car: 87 Scirocco 16V (stock 10.1 brakes, stock spindles MK1 style with smaller bolt pattern for brake carrier)

Here is a parts/modifications list to mount Girling 60 2 piston Audi Calipers to an MK1 chassis (at least an mk2 Scirocco, can't confirm other MK1 cars)

- Girling 60 calipers and carriers
-Mintex pads from Audi 200 (make sure they come from a car that has Girling 60's installed factory)
-11 inch corrado G60 rotors, 4x100
-Momentum Motorsports mk1 brake adapters**
-I used stock length 16V 1991 GTI front brake likes with stainless braiding (they measure approx 13 inches), the ones I listed above were 19 inch and were too long. 
-Stock 22mm master feels fine, have not done a road test yet.
-Wheel fitment is clear no issues with my ASA 15" wheels with 35 mm offset

** The momentum motorsports adapters are designed around the Corrado G60 brakes (Girling 54 calipers, single piston) and will require trimming (grinding of the MMP adapters) in order to allow the back (still talking front brakes btw) pad to sit in the carrier fully using the Girling 60 calipers. I spend about 25 mins on each side, grinding two impressions into the adapters that mirrored the brake pad shape. Once you mount the adapter, it will become apparent that the pad will not sit into the carrier fully and hits the adapter. Shine a light from behind and grind away until you achieve the proper clearance. Remove the carrier before you grind, but leave the adapter in place... If you don't grind the adapter, the pad will not slide freely in the caliper. It made no sense to grind the brake pad, I'd rather trim the adapter approx .1-.2 in the areas described above. I can't see myself grinding pads everytime.....

Good luck to whomever does the swap!


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