# 02M whining decel noises, aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, mainshaft axial play



## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

I thought I would share some recent experieinces with these 3 issues, what they have in common, and a simple cost effective remedy.

02M whining/grinding noise on deceleration, mostly 3rd gear, common to many 6 speed trannys found in MK4 1.8t's, 24V Vr6's, R32's. Not much of a problem on Mk5/Mk6 with 02Q, more about that later.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4947657-Gear-whine-on-decel-from-rear-of-car
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5138220-02M-Whining-noise
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4125648-3rd-Gear-Whine-on-Decel

Aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, or what has been referred to as "Clutch Creep", typically fixed with the NLS slave cylinder shim, but not always. Essentially, the clutch will refuse to disengage under some conditions preventing drivers from pulling the car out of gear, in some cases the car will lightly propel itself with the clutch pedal to the floor, drivers are unable to stop without shutting off the car and pulling it out of gear.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6062621-FI-with-After-Market-Clutch-and-clutch-creep-solutions


mainshaft axial play issues. The mainshaft has too much in and out play.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...and-forth-play&highlight=02m+input+shaft+play

What these issues have in common is a missing washer that goes between the mainshaft bearing snap ring and the case, which was mentioned halfway down the above link. I noticed that washer is installed in every MK5 02Q transmission but not in any of the 02M's I've serviced, which gave me a the idea to use it in noisy or axial play-ridden 02M's. 

OEM part # WHT-001-976 is the shim
OEM part # 02M-301-211-B is the black cover that has to be removed to install it.

I have been installing this washer/shim in 02m's to correct the main shaft play and decel issues and its been working flawlessly as a quick permanent repair in every case.

It wasn't until yesterday afternoon that I realized it also fixes the clutch creep problem too! What was likely happening is the clutch disc was hitching a ride on the loose main shaft, which allowed it to drag on the flywheel under a condition where the main shaft bearing snap ring had "bottomed out" in the groove it cut in the case. This a must-do mod for anybody with an 02M transmission as a preventative or corrective measure.

On to the procedure...

The first step is to confirm you have the right transmission for this mod. Lift your car, turn your wheels all the way left, remove the drivers splash guard (if equipped) and look for the black cap:








If you see that black cap, remove the wheel for easy access.








You will need the parts listed above, the shim/washer and a new sealing cap (do not reuse the old one, it will get deformed upon removal)








Required tools are pretty common:
























I would say the soft-face hammer, medium flat blade screw driver and pick tools are all that's needed but some may be more comfortable with using snap ring pliers. To each their own.

Video of the procedure in full:






jeff.


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## Budgeezer (Apr 7, 2005)

Excellent info!:thumbup:


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

I'd like to build on Satch's post a little bit, and create a single thread that should really help a lot of folks diagnose these issues.

Not all clutch creep or clutch drag issues on 02M are caused by the excess axial play of the input shaft. 

In cases where Aftermarket clutches (stage 2+) are used, the 02M slave cylinder may not generate enough hydraulic force to fully disengage the pressure plate from the friction disk. Enter the NLS shim kit. That kit essentially shortens the amount of extension required to fully disengage the pressure plate.

Obviously not all clutch kits are built the same, and not all slave cylinders are the same, so it is impossible to say that all of them will suffer from this deficiency, but it is a good recommendation when upgrading or replacing, to go ahead and add the NLS (Nothing Leaves Stock) shim kit to your purchase. 

(I am not associated with NLS, they are just the only vendor I know of that sells this kit)


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Duly noted, and a great addition to any clutch job for insurance.
If, however, one is experiencing clutch creep without having done either mod, the mainshaft repair doesn't require transmission removal and is the best first choice among all options in my opinion.

NLS shims aren't a cure all either. 

The last tranny I fixed was for a friend with a big turbo R32, FX400 clutch, and NLS shim to remedy creep. He had a 2nd clutch put in under the assumption it would fix it to no avail; mainshaft shim was the real winner in that case, but who knows what the results would have been if he didn't already have the NLS piece...


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## ThatredHead (Apr 16, 2012)

Just to clarify for myself it's remove cap, remove snap ring, install shim and then reinstall snap ring and new cap?


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

I have the ERR trans code in a 2002 new beetle turbo s; in this earlier version, there is no "cap" and thus, no access. I am assuming; because of the lack of a cap, the axial play issue, is not a problem? Can anyone confirm this; or is the play, still a issue but requires removal of the transmission and some sort of shim, modification of the case?  Any info or input appreciated! Thanks! 

PS: I am dealing with the same issues; as everyone else, I have a Southbend SMF "silent" kit, Stage 2, Endurance.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

rstolz, can you expound on the statement: _*"the 02M slave cylinder may not generate enough hydraulic force to fully disengage the pressure plate from the friction disk."*_ What exactly; is wrong with the stock/oem setup? I know that it is made of plastic; is it not robust enough (pressure wise), engineered for the lighter pedal pressure of the stock p/plate or is there something inherently inferior about it, compared to the earlier metal ones of the past? I know; that depending on the thermal temps of my car and weather; it does seem to affect the clutch problem (this could factor into your; hydraulic weakness explanation). Again, any info appreciated!


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

The Issue, with some detail:

It amounts to the bore of the piston in the slave and master, and the materials used in construction. You understand the basics, so when you press the pedal, it pushed a cylinder, which forces fluid in the lines forward, which eventually pushed on the piston in the slave, that piston activates the clutch.

It can only exert as much force is put into it, and it's asked to exert quite a bit as that one little piston is asked to compress the entire PP. So there is a finite amount of pressure (force) available from the system. Go over that, and you start to have issues. 

The farther a hydraulic piston is extended the less force it has at point of contact. So if it starts out at 100psi it may end up with only 40psi at the end of its stroke (those are completely random numbers, but you get the point). Also, hoses flex, reducing the forward potential as fluid starts to expand outward instead of forward. hydraulic fluid is compressible as well, not nearly as much as water, but it is, so that factors in as well as you approach limits. Colder weather means stiffer fluid, stiffer fluid offers less compression. Again this is rather small and only factors in near limits.

Now we get to the crux. The system was engineered to handle the stock clutch system, and not much more. That means stock PP clamp force and friction disk thickness. If you put a PP with 1.5x clamping force and a friction disk that's 0.1mm thicker, you need that much more force and stroke to fully actuate the clutch. 

If you try to push the pedal in that scenario, the PP will depress to a yield point, at which either the fluid is maxxed out, the hoses are flexing and allowing too much outward pressure, or the piston has just extended too far and no longer has enough force behind it to continue pushing the PP.

Rubber hoses flex, plastic housings on the slave/master are pretty rigid, and any flex you get from them is negligible. 

How to fix:
1. SS clutch lines take a significant amount of flex out of the clutch lines, allowing more force to be applied to the slave.

2. Shim kit. This basically shortens the amount of extension needed to actuate the PP, which means there is more force available at the point of full PP extension (compression).

3. The root problem is the bore and/or stroke of the master cylinder is too small. increase either of those and the potential force dramatically increases. To my knowledge no one has done this yet, as the shim kit is much cheaper and, is equally as effective.


Way longer post than I normally like, but there it is, my take on hydraulic clutch


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Thank you for your reply; my thinking, is that the hydraulic issue... (if I am understanding you correctly) is at the core of the problem! A long term and permanent fix; should be centered around the addressing the hydraulics that create the pressure (in this case, the master cylinder). I was wondering; if long term... the shim solution, would end up not being a effective and permanent fix; as clutch components wear (decreasing the added "amount of extension" for the p/plate to disengage) and end up with the same problem, again?! I have bought the shim kit and have yet to install it; I was concerned, the more I thought about the problem, whether or not it was a solid; long term, permanent solution to the problem. After hearing your take on things and seeing how the shims have been out for not a terribly long time; not enough, to hear about a scenario, where the clutch assembly wears allot. Now, I can see why many who installed the shims have a initial solution to the problem but maybe a explanation why is doesn't fix "all" of everyone's problems; of course, it is hard to know, a bunch of other potential factors that people are dealing with (not correctly bleeding clutch system, internal hard part trans issues, clutch hose, various clutch brands, etc. etc.) I see a potential weakness with the shims; as it isn't addressing the lack of hydraulic pressure, the core problem!  What do you think? Do you think; the shim will lose its effectiveness over the life cycle of the clutch and other components; as they wear? If this is the case; then, I would like to deal with the hydraulics specifically and not have to worry about the problem ever again. As I am learning; it seems, that when you add aftermarket parts, you have improve all the other parts related to it. As with these clutches; the original part, is not engineered to deal with the added requirements of the non stock part and as many may argue, even the stock clutch was not effectively served by the stock clutch master cylinder. Let me know what you think! Thanks!


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

I've had the same thought, but I haven't seen any reports of failure I would link to the shim. I would say the only failure you'd likely see is internal seal failure of the master or slave. And there is little you can do about that. There is also no way to really link a failed seal to a shim kit.

Those cylinders just fail, whether metal, OEM, or Aftermarket; it's a relatively common fail point on any car with a hydraulic clutch. That's one reason why they aren't terribly expensive to replace... except on the 02M, where you have to drop the trans, but even then, the part itself isnt so bad.

SS lines and the shim are about the best solutions. even if someone came out with a bigger bore/longer stroke master, I might still suggest the shim first.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

I already installed a steel braided line for the hydraulics (when I installed the clutch) but I haven't installed the shims yet; the installed upgraded hose by itself, definitely... does not fix the problem. Still need to pull the trans; fix some other things and install the shims, as well.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

Ok So I have another question. I had a Stock clutch on a Four season tuning 16.5 Steel billet Single mass flywheel. I had clutch creep/engagement issues. exact same symptoms the turbo guys were having with their higher rated clutches. 

So i go to instlal my supercharger and proceed with my build. I remove my stock 02M with 150 or so K on it and i notice that the shaft in and out play is about 1 inch total. I went and ordered a *DRP* 02M to replace the stock GQV 02M. 

Are these Shims you speak of for the main shaft specific to the GQV boxes ( not having them ) because my gently used DRP main shaft DOES NOT move at all in and out like the GQV did. 

I also have a spare 40K 02M GQV and it has minimal shaft play in and out compared to my 150k original trans. Any input is appreciated.


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

The older versions of the 02M did not have the shims, which resulted in the shaft essentially slowly boring itself a biggerhole to sit in. that larger hole is where the play comes from. Newer versions had this corrected and came stock with said shims to alleviate the issue.

I do not know when specifically that change happened. 

But it stands to reason that a trnas with heavy use would have more than a lightly used one.


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## kometmotor (Feb 13, 2007)

Ordered these parts from VW to try on our shop car with the clutch creep issue. Will post results here.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

rstolz, so, the "boring out"; happens, on the earlier transmissions as well; because, there was too much play from the factory or for some other reason that I am not, understanding? I guess; I am not clear, as to where all this play comes from, all of the sudden or what inherent weakness, causes this to happen in the first place? I replaced all the bearings in the transmission; so, my bearings are essentially new but like I said, I did not check the play or pay special attention to it. I have 70k on my trans; with essentially new parts (bearings, 1st/2nd gear syncros, seals, repinned original shifter forks etc.). If/when I pull it out again; I certainly will check it. Would one; modify the case; like, the other newer 02M threads with the plastic cap, to make sure the bearing doesn't move (drill, tap; install something to restrict movement of the bearing outer shell/race?) I appreciate you; listening to all my questions, I just am trying to understand where any and all possible solutions to our problems, may lie! Thanks! 

My trans is 2WD: ERR trans code.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

rstolz didnt comment n the difference models of 02M.... is this problem specific to a GQV becuase my DRP is from a 2003 4motion Golf ( europe ) my 2004 R32 has a GQV from a newer car with the problem. 

its good info and i appreciate the feedback


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

it gets tricky when talking trans models and car models, and I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the 02M to comment accurately. 

I will say this though:
The first year for a GQV may be be from 2002, where the first year for a DRP may be 2003. So even though YOUR GQV came from a '04 model car, that trans model may be an older version than the DRP. Confusing enough for you? 

To find out for sure you'd have to track the release of each 02M trans model, independent of what model and model year car it was used with.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

rstolz said:


> it gets tricky when talking trans models and car models, and I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the 02M to comment accurately.
> 
> I will say this though:
> The first year for a GQV may be be from 2002, where the first year for a DRP may be 2003. So even though YOUR GQV came from a '04 model car, that trans model may be an older version than the DRP. Confusing enough for you?
> ...


Im not trying to mess with u, JS... the DRP has a different bearing on the main shasft, so internals are slightly different. im just tyring to see if this was the GQV specific. most everyone with the issue uses a GQV, so ill just shutup about it, lol


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

oh no offense taken at all, the more this stuff gets talked about, the more I get to learn. 

If we can identify exactly which trans models have the issue, we can start to map which other versions are likely to see the same issue, and which ones are not.

My only point was that you can't base it solely on the model year of the car. :thumbup:


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## kometmotor (Feb 13, 2007)

I have had this clutch creep issue for several months now. I just received the shim and cap from VW today and will post the results after the install. Thanks for posting up this information. I really wasn't looking forward to pulling the trans again this quickly.


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## 04_BMP_GLI (Jul 12, 2004)

Just had a Sachs OEM clutch kit installed last week and I've been having problems with clutch creep as well. 

We bled the slave, seemed to help for a day then the symptoms came back. 

Has this fix helped anyone yet?


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## kometmotor (Feb 13, 2007)

I just did this in my 05" GLI with the 02M 6 speed transmission. Like it was stated above, it took me 15 minutes. Removed drivers side wheel, the inner splash shield, and pulled the black cap off of the side of the transmission. Removed the large outer snap ring, installed shim, and reinstalled snap ring and new cover. Do not reuse the cover. It worked just as advertised. No more clutch creep or hard shifting. Fantastic news. I just ordered 2 more sets of the shim/cover to take care of the same problem on a couple R32's for customers. Parts are around $20 from the dealer.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

kometmotor, if you have those part numbers; please post them up, this type of information is needed, so we in the 02M community... can finally, start fixing these inherent issues and have our cars work as they should! Thanks! 

Also, from your shop/tech experience with customers cars; are you installing the NLS shim kit or trying to upgrade the hydraulics to deal with this issue, long term? 


Any info, experience and feedback appreciated! Any and all info; that can be compiled here, will hopefully help everyone in their pursuit of a functional clutch/02M trans combo! eace:


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## kometmotor (Feb 13, 2007)

I did not install the NLS shim kit. The part numbers you need are at the top of this thread. Both are OEM VW numbers. Here they are again but credit goes to the person who originated this thread.

OEM part # WHT-001-976 is the shim
OEM part # 02M-301-211-B is the black cover that has to be removed to install it.

This is what I would install to eliminate the clutch creep. It worked perfectly on my 02M.


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Glad to hear this is working for others as it has worked for me. I've since performed this on a few more 02M boxes and it works wonderfully in every case. 

I will post a pictorial DIY in a few days for those who are a little nervous about doing this on their own. 

Jeff


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

satchimo, are you seeing this; on the earlier 02M's that DO NOT; have the external cover and would thus, require a trans pull, for this issue? Any info; appreciated! Thanks!


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

kometmotor said:


> I just did this in my 05" GLI with the 02M 6 speed transmission. Like it was stated above, it took me 15 minutes. Removed drivers side wheel, the inner splash shield, and pulled the black cap off of the side of the transmission. Removed the large outer snap ring, installed shim, and reinstalled snap ring and new cover. Do not reuse the cover. It worked just as advertised. No more clutch creep or hard shifting. Fantastic news. I just ordered 2 more sets of the shim/cover to take care of the same problem on a couple R32's for customers. Parts are around $20 from the dealer.


YAY


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

billymade said:


> satchimo, are you seeing this; on the earlier 02M's that DO NOT; have the external cover and would thus, require a trans pull, for this issue? Any info; appreciated! Thanks!


I'm afraid that's correct. Early/mid '03 and earlier 6 speed boxes do not have the black access cover and do not make use of the parts listed. It's entirely possible that there are clutch kits out there for 6 speeds that have poor design and require a little help in the form of the NLS shim. However, upon removal of your transmission to add the NLS shim (assuming that is your next plan of attack) check the mainshaft play at that point and see if it needs to be rebuilt. I just rebuilt an early 1.8t box (ironically code is FML) last week with bad mainshaft bearing scoring and about 1/16" axial play, so it does happen. Those early boxes use upper and lower taper roller bearings for the mains 
haft instead of the later ball bearing and needle bearing in these later boxes.

Let me know if you need any part numbers or the parts themselves, I work for a company that can supply all this stuff.

keep us posted with your findings

jeff


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks for your replay; I just rebuilt mine and put in all new bearings; I was not paying particular attention to this issue; as I was replacing all the bearings... as they were all scored from metal particulate in the gear oil from grinding gears and the classic 1st/2nd fork failure. If/when I pull the trans; I will check for beyond spec play. I am still; of the thought, that without a hydraulic master cylinder upgrade, we are going to continue to see this issue... until a "true" upgrade that deals with the core problem (hydraulic pressure is insufficient in stock form) is created by someone or implemented, some how. I hope; this is resolved somehow; by the aftermarket in some way, hydraulic failures (master, slave etc.) and insufficient performance seems to be a common "thread" throughout everyone's explanation of the issue. Please, someone... stop the insanity! :banghead:


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## Irocudont (Nov 3, 2006)

Best $20 I have spent on my car. Had a CM FX350 kit installed a few months back and it never felt right. After the car propelling itself through an intersection with the clutch pedal fully depressed, the shop replaced the master cylinder. Worked okay for about a week, so I replaced the bleeder block and OEM clutch line with a USP braided one, and bled the crap out of it. Same thing, after a few days of mediocre shifts and engagement it would get worse. A member of another forum informed me that satchimo had installed the washer on his 02M after suffering nearly the same problems. So figured what's to lose, ordered the parts up. Took longer to jack the car up and remove the front wheel that it actually took to install the washer.
Solved all my trans issues, now it shifts like it did when I first got the car.


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

billymade said:


> \ I am still; of the thought, that without a hydraulic master cylinder upgrade, we are going to continue to see this issue... until a "true" upgrade that deals with the core problem (hydraulic pressure is insufficient in stock form) is created by someone or implemented, some how.


I have never suspected the master-slave system to be at fault with the clutch creep issue, especially if the slave has been replaced and bled thoroughly. Properly bled hydraulic clutches are the best method of compressing the springs on a pressure plate; brake fluid is considered "incompressible" so long as there is no air or water in the system. They are also self adjusting, so long as there's sufficient fluid in the reservoir and a clean clutch master.

I use a pressure bleeder on every bleed job, and sometimes have to rebleed after a day or so on the odd job (irregular pedal height) but I have never encountered a clutch creep problem that was caused by "insufficient hydraulic pressure" yet.

jeff

afterthought:

The reason I believe the slave cylinders are more than capable and have sufficient travel to compress the pressure plate fingers is due to the fact that when installing these transmissions, I always have to *push the box against the motor and hold it there* while installing the bellhousing bolts. This is because of the spring loaded counterforce of the fully extended slave cylinder making contact with the pressure plate, which indicates the slave's travel exceeds the requirement to compress the pressure plate.

I suppose if one finds themselves in a situation where they don't feel "spring kickback" they are using a binding slave or have some other clutch issue. Always check the slave for good movement and travel, as some appear to be crooked and cocked sideways out of the box.

jeff


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## 04_BMP_GLI (Jul 12, 2004)

satchimo said:


> Glad to hear this is working for others as it has worked for me. I've since performed this on a few more 02M boxes and it works wonderfully in every case.
> 
> I will post a pictorial DIY in a few days for those who are a little nervous about doing this on their own.
> 
> Jeff


That would be great! I'm really getting annoyed with this "clutch creep" issue!


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

I spent a lot of time and money this winter rebuilding my 02M for the common whining on deceleration problem only to have it still making the noise.

I just ordered the parts and hopefully this will resolve the problem. If it does :thumbup: to the OP


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## 04_BMP_GLI (Jul 12, 2004)

Just ordered the shim and cap as well. Can't hurt to try, seems to work so it's better than throwing away money on a new master cylinder.


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## 04_BMP_GLI (Jul 12, 2004)

Got around to putting on the washer and new cap. Worked like a charm....so far.

Drove most of the afternoon running errands, no clutch creep at all and easier to get into first now. 

:beer:


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

15 min job to install the washer and cap. No more whining!!

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## newmanasty (Jun 9, 2009)

ordered! if this works, somebody deserves a hug.

Single mass flywheel, and I'm having the stated problems above with clutch creep, difficulty getting into, and out of first and reverse.


update.....it worked!!


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## Deconus (Apr 21, 2005)

Oh man, I just started having this problem with the creeping/hard shifting and was like, NOOOOO I don't want to pull the transmission out again!!! $20 and NOT pulling the tranny sounds much better :thumbup:


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## poxxxy (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi guys, I have the older type 02m and ot appears my tapered bearing race on the gearbox casing is sitting low and free spinning causing main shaft axial play. What fix shoud I try to aim for? A shim under the race? Any genius ways to extract race? Could I locktite it back in position after determining shim to take up slack? Really appreciate any help.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

I have a similar old trans, like you; I haven't check or dealt with the problem yet. To remove the race; you can weld on the race itself and it will drop out. That would require a replacement and you probably would want to replace the roller bearing as well; which might be a good idea, considering the problem you are having. If you want to reuse the race; the bentley, does show a specific puller to remove the races, I think it is made by kukko and a shop online does offer it for rental, you might be able to fabricate a tool of some sort. In my case; I was replacing all the bearings during my rebuild; so, I just welded on the face of the race with a mig and they dropped out from the shrinkage/heat. 

There are some threads; where people drill a hole in the case and put a set screw to keep the race in place; aptuning, also seems to have a fix, you might contact them for more info. 

http://www.aptuning.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=8


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## poxxxy (Oct 7, 2013)

Are the races available to buy or do they come with the bearings? I am unable to find part numbers for them. Im in the UK so im not sure anyone rents the tools. I did find the puller and counteract but not the press for the new one to go in. Can it be hammered with something suitable?


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

poxxxy said:


> Are the races available to buy or do they come with the bearings? I am unable to find part numbers for them. Im in the UK so im not sure anyone rents the tools. I did find the puller and counteract but not the press for the new one to go in. Can it be hammered with something suitable?


Poxxy,

The bearing and race come as a set - never mix and match these parts.

I'm sure someone on Vortex can provide you with the bearing code. If not, when you take the old bearing out, you should see the code on the inner bearing race. Alternatively, you can always mic the bearing and call up The Bearing King for the replacement.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Here are some ideas; how I removed and replaced my races: 

http://newbeetle.org/forums/transmission-talk/50942-turbo-s-just-lost-1st-2nd-my-02m-6-speed-3.html

You should have no problem getting the bearings; I had issues finding some bearings from non VW sources, in my case some where only available from the Volkswagen dealer. The exception to that rule; was the differential bearings, as they are used on other cars and brands as well. Just take your vin # and call or go down to your Volkswagen dealers parts department, they should have no problem getting what you need.


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## poxxxy (Oct 7, 2013)

Ty Mr.Loops and billymade, thats an awesome thread you have there! Unfortunately i'm a little more of cheap skate and don't won't to replace my bearings, just get the shaft back upto spec and shim the race. Got the offending race out today with a flat screwdriver and as suspected... the shim and casing has been worn down through spinning. Unfortunately not having a dial guage I marked the shaft with tipex and pulled it myself up and down whilst steadying a blade to etch the travel into the tipex. This appears to be around 1.4mm and I have ordered shim kit from vw tps which should be here Wednesday and also loctite 648 I think it is to help in sticking back the race in a suitable position. I wish we could rent tools over here in the UK like you can! Would make it very enticing to go the whole hog as you have. I didn't want to purchase a new casing due to the high milage/low relative value of the car and the extortionate cost. Jim ellis I think wanted $780 usd for example.

Half the day was wasted by a local gearbox "specialist" who have real bad work ethics so I had to get my box back off them in anger and proceed to do something about it myself .

I need some brass punches, they look wonderful tools!


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## homestead_us (Jan 11, 2012)

Fast install, I took it for a test drive and no more noise in 3rd gear decel. Hopefully no issues will pop up tomorrow when I drive to work, thanks!


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## .:R32DBP (May 21, 2006)

*02M whining decel noises, aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, mainshaft ...*

Sounds like I will be doing this whenever I will be doing this soon. Would love to see that DIY with plenty of pics.... Haha


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

.:R32DBP said:


> Sounds like I will be doing this whenever I will be doing this soon. Would love to see that DIY with plenty of pics.... Haha


I will be performing this on 2 cars this weekend, both R32's. I will take a video of the excessive play, which I'm certain exists in at least 1 of the boxes.

pics and media will be added to the original post in this thread, "stay tuned..."

jeff.


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

For those struggling with removing bearing races from the cases, I typically will use heat from a propane torch or MAP gas, just enough to expand the aluminum around the race(s) and slam the case upside down on a plank of wood. They usually all fall out with little effort.

I work on these all the time, and have several pics focusing on internal damage to show customers (lots of carnage pics), but if I find some that could be helpful to people on this thread I'll post up a few.

jeff.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

satchimo, are you seeing the same "play" issues; with the early 02M like mine (code ERR), that DO NOT have external access to the bearing (no plastic cap, sealed inside by the casting)?

Any and all pics, info and experiences you have had with your repairs, would be appreciated!  Thanks! eace:


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Just finished installing the Shim and also the NLS shim. The NLS shim brought back some feel. Now I jus have to get her back on the road to check the result of the mainshaft shim.

Did anyone who install the shim have to give the C-clip a little motivation to clip in completely?

I have like .000000000000001" play in the mainshaft. :laugh:


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Updated my first post with pics and DIY info as promised.


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## .:R32DBP (May 21, 2006)

*02M whining decel noises, aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, mainshaft ...*

Wow it really is as simple as you say haha. I definitely need to get this done. Thank you for the pics and video. 👍👍👍


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## Ephry73 (Feb 18, 2002)

For those who have done the shim instal to correct whine noise, how has the fix worked up so far? I may have to do this this weekend, as I am also swapping the gear oil. 

Thanks for the fix BTW!


E


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## .:R32DBP (May 21, 2006)

*02M whining decel noises, aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, mainshaft ...*

Just did this on my car this morning. Definitely very simple to do. Thanks for the DIY and finding this solution satchimo!


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## memo_gli (Sep 8, 2013)

i read too late this post i down the transmission from my foi mk4 have the noise to decelerate in 2nd an 4 gear, and goes to presa the clutch, but i change the bearings and install the washer, waiting disappears the noise

Excellent DIY

Enviado desde mi HTC One X usando Tapatalk 2


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## hubcap1234 (Mar 22, 2010)

*Best thread ever*

This is the best damn thread on vortex. Thank you soooo much. I just had a south bend stage 2 daily clutch installed, kept stock flywheel. Had clutch creep in 1st and reverse and also got stuck in those gears. I was going crazy and nobody knew what was wrong. Mechanic bled the clutch multiple times and thought it was the pressure plate. Took 20 min to install, removing wheel took the longest lolololol. Cap did not sit completely flush after but haven't had any issues. Thanks again!
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

*best post ever*



hubcap1234 said:


> ......... lolololol. .........
> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


best damn post ever


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Finally got the car back on the ground. ANDDDDDD Wow! Did NLS shim, input axle shim, USP forks, and Sigma shifter. No noise, no creep, no 1st to 2nd mis, crazy short throw, so smooth, straight money.

Oh and if you don't have the Diesel geek sigma shifter, you F'd up. Don't waste your time with anything else.


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## 514passatvr6 (Dec 5, 2004)

Hello everyone,

Been getting creep since day 1 (02m swap with new south bend clutch) and reverse getting stuck. 

8 months later clutch will not disengage at all...

will this mod completely fix a clutch that will not disengage? or is my slave shot?

Thanks!


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

514passatvr6 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Been getting creep since day 1 (02m swap with new south bend clutch) and reverse getting stuck.
> 
> ...


I would first bleed the slave cylinder. See what that gains you. This fix is honestly more for the transmission than the Clutch.

I would go with the NLS shim or another company that is producing Slave cylinder kits for the MK4 platform ( looks pretty beefy).


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## 514passatvr6 (Dec 5, 2004)

woodywoods86 said:


> I would first bleed the slave cylinder. See what that gains you. This fix is honestly more for the transmission than the Clutch.
> 
> I would go with the NLS shim or another company that is producing Slave cylinder kits for the MK4 platform ( looks pretty beefy).


I bled it and no luck my clutch still does not depress. 

I ordered both the main shaft shim and the NLS shim. 

I question if these shims will bring it back, or if my slave is simply shot from over worked from the aftermarket pressure plate.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

I would bleed the system with the phoenix systems reverse bleeder tool; works really well and quickly, one person job. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=pho...j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

@514:

For kicks, change the shim first. I'm curious to see how well the shim performs on its own.
Of course, if your slave is pooched there's really nothing you can do outside of pulling the transmission, but excess play in the main shaft has a huge affect on how the clutch disengages.

Good luck, report back and keep us posted with your results

Jeff


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

For the record, after replacing dozens of 02M clutches (Spec, Soutbend/DXD, OEM, Clutch Masters) I haven't found it necessary to use the NLS slave shim on any occasion.

The only thing I've ever used to fix clutch creep specifically has been the addition of the main shaft shim. This is not to say the NLS piece is not worthwhile, I just haven't found a clutch/slave issue yet which requires that sort of thing. Clearly, preventing the main shaft from "walking" (and dragging the clutch disc with it) by installing the main shaft shim works, as several users on this thread have expressed, and they performed the fix in "around 15 minutes". 

The verdict is still out there on whether or not it actually fixes anything or if it's just another temporary patch-up that will end in disappointments and tears, so we need some data on implementing this fix alone to correct the problem. I believe it will work in every case.

Jeff


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## woteg (Apr 7, 2009)

God I hope it fixes mine, just started creeping since it's gotten into the single digits and wasn't looking forward to dropping the trans

Sent from my SPH-D710VMUB using Tapatalk


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## 514passatvr6 (Dec 5, 2004)

satchimo said:


> @514:
> 
> For kicks, change the shim first. I'm curious to see how well the shim performs on its own.
> Of course, if your slave is pooched there's really nothing you can do outside of pulling the transmission, but excess play in the main shaft has a huge affect on how the clutch disengages.
> ...


Hello Jeff, 

I will change the shim first and report back. (I am impatiently waiting for parts to arrive) 

In the numerous jobs uve done have you have you ever had a clutch not disengage at all and then install the shim to see results?

In the below thread many people report of clutches not engaging to varying degrees: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5501345-02m-Clutch-Issues-(heavy-pic-content)

FYI. Weather here is below freezing and I daily drive in winter. When I first installed the clutch I had creeping and sporadic clutch not disengaging. In the last weeks it was getting worse and worse. 

Thanks,


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

514passatvr6 said:


> Hello Jeff,
> 
> I will change the shim first and report back. (I am impatiently waiting for parts to arrive)
> 
> ...


I'm trying to wrap my head around your current situation, regarding clutch not disengaging. I gather that if you start the car in gear, clutch pedal to the floor, the car propels itself as though you have not pressed the pedal?

Or does it drag slightly and propel itself?

Or do you press the pedal and it sticks to the floor?

In my experience, if the pedal has resistance and it feels right, though the clutch wont disengage, either your clutch disc has separated and looks like pulled pork or the pressure plate has broken.
In any event, I would still start with the simplest and cheapest repair which is the mainshaft shim and cap.

jeff


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## 514passatvr6 (Dec 5, 2004)

I gather that if you start the car in gear, clutch pedal to the floor, the car propels itself as though you have not pressed the pedal?

*CORRECT *


I always had the sticking, drifting symptoms. Just before it got really bad I would pump the clutch 4-5 times and it would kinda disengage until it finally stopped disengaging all together.

When bleeding there was a big build up in pressure. It feels almost like the slave is pushing against a wall. 

Anyways I will report back and keep it updated!


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## dickle (Dec 15, 2013)

what a great thread! lots of good info. i wish i had seen it when it first came out:facepalm:
thanks satchimo


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## woteg (Apr 7, 2009)

Oh God. Have a southbend dxd stg 5 that was getting stuck in gear, notchy shifting, and creeping. Put a shim in, usp clutch line, and removed the restricter in the bleeder block. Shifts like butter 

Sent from my SPH-D710VMUB using Tapatalk


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## .:RyouExperienced (Sep 19, 2005)

Had whining noises coming from the tranny on deceleration with every gear. Did this simple fix along with a fluid change and the noise has disappeared and shifting is smoother. Thanks a million for posting this DIY! It's these posts that keep my car rolling.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

What a great thread !


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Excellent. I wish I knew about this a year ago when I installed my diff.

Time to buy another cap and the shim. :thumbup::thumbup::beer::wave:


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm running a Golf 02m gear box and a Spec stage 2 clutch with SMF the Code is FML so it doesn't have the end cap as shown in the video.
The box is on a Renault and less then 1000 miles ago it was converted using a fully rebuilt box which had the main bearings replaced and modified selector forks, clutch and slave cylinder (supplied by spec) and has been running fine with no issues other then the odd hard to select gear while cold and a rattle in 3rd while decelerating.

Symptoms of my problem
1)You can get into all gears while the engine is off
2)While the engine is on, if you attempt to put it into gear it won’t go into gear but it will start to drag the car a little 
3)If you start it in gear it will take off so the clutch is working just it wont go into gear while the engine is running 

I have bleed the clutch and it is rock hard now so I don't think it is that.

So while looking over the internet I came across this thread but can't see to find If anyone has managed to fit this shim into the FML box which has no cover and has a solid metal end, does anyone have further info on this?


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

Like this image 

Image taken from this thread for reference
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5572868-FS-Low-miles-o2m-Eurospec-sport-clutch-PP-LW-FW&p=75910321#post75910321


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Well, I haven't yet seen this problem on those early dual taper roller bearing mainshaft boxes, so I can only speculate at this point. My experience, and this thread, is focused mainly on the later 02M's from '04 and up with open end cap design and access to the ball and cage bearing. 

The first question I have is whether or not there was play or bad bearings in any shafts prior to or after the rebuild, and whether all bearing preloads were taken seriously. If all checks out OK, then it could be non compliant gear oil or possibly a bad flywheel. Gear oil should be VW GL4 spec *OEM part G 052 171 A2. Use it.*

Are you using a Clio conversion flywheel?


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Here's the problem in a nutshell:

The play that's notorious in the later boxes is axial, or "in and out". The main shaft and it's bearing literally slides back and forth in a reciprocating motion that is detected when you tug on it and push it back in. Slight play (1mm/.040") isn't a huge problem but once it gets to certain point of wear (2+mm/.125") its assumed it makes contact with the 1st/2nd/3rd pinion shaft and continues to spin through friction from that contact, independent of the clutch disengagement.

A more realistic theory is that the clutch disc hitches a ride with the reciprocating shaft and bounces back and forth between the gap of a disengaged clutch, skimming either the flywheel or pressure plate, depending on where the shaft ends up after accel or decel. This is obviously a bad thing, and I think it's the best explanation so far due to the fact that it explains the issue perfectly when at a standstill, (ie pinion shafts aren't spinning, therefore could not spin the main shaft)

Seeing as the gears are helical gears there is a repeated reciprocating motion upon accel and decel, with the helix forcing the main shaft from one end of play to other end. This obviously gets worse and worse unless this play is arrested, because what is actually happening is the rear shaft ball bearing, complete with retainer snap ring, starts to machine the case. 

In your case, there is no bearing that behaves like that when worn. Your 02M has upper and lower taper roller bearings that sandwich the main shaft between the 2 case halves. Any play in that style of bearing fixture means big trouble, because you have more than just "in and out play" but also radial or "side to side" play and lots of slop in the whole thing. That play, if present, can be fixed by placing graduated OEM shims behind the bearing race(s) to remove that play, until a specified "preload" on the bearings has been achieved. This can only be done on your early box with the tranny removed and case split apart. 

There are a few potential causes for that sticky gear condition, so it's important to rule out the common sense stuff like gear oil and clutch hardware etc. I once had a customer upgrade to a 6 speed and when he installed the shift box he bent the end of the shift cables ever so slightly that the kinked cable ends got stuck in the sheathing trying to engage 1st2nd and especially reverse. 

It is entirely possible that your setup, "Heinz 57" with conversion flywheel, adapter plate, aftermarket clutch, aftermarket slave and whatever you used for a clutch master has some kind of interchange issue. You may require a different fix that's being sold on this forum, the NLS slave cylinder shim. Some people swear by it...

Jeff


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

satchimo said:


> Well, I haven't yet seen this problem on those early dual taper roller bearing mainshaft boxes, so I can only speculate at this point. My experience, and this thread, is focused mainly on the later 02M's from '04 and up with open end cap design and access to the ball and cage bearing.
> 
> The first question I have is whether or not there was play or bad bearings in any shafts prior to or after the rebuild, and whether all bearing preloads were taken seriously. If all checks out OK, then it could be non compliant gear oil or possibly a bad flywheel. Gear oil should be VW GL4 spec *OEM part G 052 171 A2. Use it.*
> 
> Are you using a Clio conversion flywheel?


The Fly wheel is a custom SMF which is made to fit the 02m with the crank holes for the Clio crank and the Renault trigger pattern.
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/renault-vw-flywheel/

The conversion in case anyone was interested 
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/clio-02m-upgrade/

The box it's self was rebuilt when I purchased it and had the main bearing replaced but I only had an invoice for this.
I then had a Quaife installed and the box was pulled apart and checked for tolerances by a local Gearbox rebuilder, I was told it was all fine and they recommended the selectors to be bolted and welded while the box was apart so this was also done. The oil used was the genuine VAG oil specified for the o2m from a main dealer as the gearbox place said it was the only oil to use with this box.
It was running fine for about 1000 miles and over the space of 5 miles suddenly wouldn't engage the clutch anymore.


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for the additional info Jeff, the master cylinder is also from a golf the standard one which is used as OEM, its even using the clutch pipe work from the golf too.
I think it maybe a case of take the box out again and checking it for play in the shaft, if not maybe a shim on the slave as suggested.


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## Bago47 (Jul 26, 2012)

Will try this is TT mk1 225 bhp 6 speed. Great info!


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## Jonnymooshoo (Apr 16, 2011)

Proven fix.. went through two clutches before Jeff fixed mine with this simple easy fix. :thumbup:


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## Bago47 (Jul 26, 2012)

Just checked my car and it seems I don't have this option ;( Even though it's O2M...


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## VincewagenR32 (Nov 7, 2010)

opcorn::beer::beer::beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jake2k (Nov 25, 2010)

I've been noticing a slight grinding noise when decelerating in gear ever since I had my O2M swapped in(was an auto) also it's been hard to shift into first and it gets stuck in first and reverse. Someone told me this was just the throwout bearing going bad and the clutch could maybe use a bleeding. However it's been getting a little worse this past week and just a couple hours ago it started squealing with the clutch pedal out and then the pedal got stuck to the floor and I believe the slave cylinder blew because of the brake fluid on the ground. I don't know anything about these transmissions so this might be ignorant to assume but could this shaft not being shimmed have caused these problems? Also should I make sure the shop that I take it to knows to look for and replace this shim when working on it? I appreciate any info or help, thanks guys


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## jagt21VR6 (Jun 2, 2005)

most certainly sounds like the slave blew...sucks its on the inside of the tranny! I just did mine about 4 weeks ago...and yes they should def do the shim while they are in there, although thats a simple 20 minute job...i imagine it not being shimmed hurts the integrity of the clutch setup in general...I did have mine shimmed when mine blew though but that could be because it was a generic/crappy slave cylinder, or some other reason...make sure you put an oem slave back in there...


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## VincewagenR32 (Nov 7, 2010)




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## jagt21VR6 (Jun 2, 2005)

actaully more likely the master cylinder, my slave blew, which leaked fluid within the trans case, i know the master cylinder is behind the peddle whish is probably what leaked the fluid...


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Quick question

Won't that shim pull the other bearing on the clutch housing away from the race?
I can't remember what type of bearing it uses on the clutch housing and which way it faces but from what I remember it's a conical bearing race, and that shim pulling the shaft towards the case will space out the other bearing


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## Jake2k (Nov 25, 2010)

jagt21VR6 said:


> most certainly sounds like the slave blew...sucks its on the inside of the tranny! I just did mine about 4 weeks ago...and yes they should def do the shim while they are in there, although thats a simple 20 minute job...i imagine it not being shimmed hurts the integrity of the clutch setup in general...I did have mine shimmed when mine blew though but that could be because it was a generic/crappy slave cylinder, or some other reason...make sure you put an oem slave back in there...





jagt21VR6 said:


> actaully more likely the master cylinder, my slave blew, which leaked fluid within the trans case, i know the master cylinder is behind the peddle whish is probably what leaked the fluid...


It turned out to be the slave, I had a friend pump the clutch and looked where the fluid was coming from and found that it was dripping out of the bell housing  so I took it in and had a shop replace it. While it was apart they also found out my stage 1 clutch was pretty worn so I just bought a whole new oem kit(clutch, pp, slave), the flywheel was also worn out but luckily it was a lw aluminum Autotech flywheel with a replaceable insert so that wasnt too much. Now however, when I rev the engine in neutral or start off in first gear there is a sound coming from the trans that doesnt sound too good, they suggested that it was something to do with the input shaft bearing which made sense to me after having already read through this thread.

My question(s) are why didnt I notice the sound before? Does it have something to do with me changing from a stage one kit to an oem kit? Also if this is the bearing will the shim keep me in the green or is this trans a ticking timebomb?


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

sp_golf said:


> Quick question
> 
> Won't that shim pull the other bearing on the clutch housing away from the race?
> I can't remember what type of bearing it uses on the clutch housing and which way it faces but from what I remember it's a conical bearing race, and that shim pulling the shaft towards the case will space out the other bearing


Actually, the bearing on the bell housing side is a needle bearing that supports the shaft radially. The main support is from the rear bearing which isnt taper roller but a ball bearing that holds the shaft in place as a radial and thrust bearing. Of course, it's only as effective as its mounting and fixture will provide, which is where the shim/washer comes into play. The washer essentially puts the bearing in its proper factory position and keeps it there. Not a re engineer, just a retro fit from newer transmissions that use that piece for the same purpose. 

Jeff


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Jake2k said:


> My question(s) are why didnt I notice the sound before? Does it have something to do with me changing from a stage one kit to an oem kit? Also if this is the bearing will the shim keep me in the green or is this trans a ticking timebomb?


I think the sound you're hearing is the notorious "lightweight flywheel gear chatter", very common to 6 speeds. I've personally noticed the Autotech aluminum one to be the worst offender, and coincidently just removed one last week for a customer who had the same concerns as you. It just annoyed him to the point where he had to have it out. 

It's possible the mainshaft washer might make it a little less noisy, especially if you have excessive play to begin with. 

Jeff


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## jagt21VR6 (Jun 2, 2005)

a fluidampr pulley I have read eliminates most of the flywheel chatter and has some good performance gains as well, if it wasnt a 400 pulley I would be all over it, its on a short but expensive list of mods I would like to eventually do...


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## Cajetan (Feb 1, 2012)

Knock on wood, I am at almost 100k with no issues sounding like this. Is it worth installing preemptively? I am not sure if this has already been answered.


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## Jake2k (Nov 25, 2010)

satchimo said:


> I think the sound you're hearing is the notorious "lightweight flywheel gear chatter", very common to 6 speeds. I've personally noticed the Autotech aluminum one to be the worst offender, and coincidently just removed one last week for a customer who had the same concerns as you. It just annoyed him to the point where he had to have it out.
> 
> It's possible the mainshaft washer might make it a little less noisy, especially if you have excessive play to begin with.
> 
> Jeff


So if its just chatter I'm hearing then there's no negative effect other than the annoying noise?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

satchimo said:


> Actually, the bearing on the bell housing side is a needle bearing that supports the shaft radially. The main support is from the rear bearing which isnt taper roller but a ball bearing that holds the shaft in place as a radial and thrust bearing. Of course, it's only as effective as its mounting and fixture will provide, which is where the shim/washer comes into play. The washer essentially puts the bearing in its proper factory position and keeps it there. Not a re engineer, just a retro fit from newer transmissions that use that piece for the same purpose.
> 
> Jeff


Okay that makes perfect sense then :beer:


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Jake2k said:


> So if its just chatter I'm hearing then there's no negative effect other than the annoying noise?


Yes I believe so. If, it is in fact, LWF gear chatter.


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## mikochu (Aug 27, 2005)

Has anyone added the shim to a 02Q on a MK6 GTI? The MK5 GTI has the shim in the schematics, but the MK6 GTI does not. I've got a lightened single-mass flywheel (CM FX300) in my MK6 GTI and it has the clutch disengagement issue. I ordered a couple caps and shim, so I'll be able to at least replace the cap when I check to see if there is any play. Anyway, just wanted to know if anyone had experience with this fix on the 02Q...

Thanks,
Mike


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

So I found my problem wasn't the bearing, I have checked for play on the input shaft and it looks fine.
Unfortunately when I pulled the box off yesterday I found this (This has done about 1000 miles total, box was rebuilt before going in and all brand new clutch fly wheel and release bearing).










Box in question









This was the cause of my rattle


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

These aftermarket performance clutches; just don't seem to hold up! :banghead: I am running SB "silent" endurance kit; it seems to be getting louder, louder as time goes on (it was pretty "silent" in the beginning; not so much anymore). I haven't pulled mine yet but makes me wonder; if there are issues not unlike yours! 

_It is really; that hard to make a strong, reliable, performance clutch or are we the customers, their unpaid/unintended/unknowing r&d department members, out in the field? Makes you wonder; if many of these designs, should have been tested longer or if they are fully developed designs? _

I know; there is always the possibility of abuse, incorrect installation, fitment or wrong application; however, it seems there are quite a few people who have had performance clutch failures on many VWs. 

I wanted a upgraded clutch; over the stock system but at times, I wonder if it would just be easier to go back to stock, eliminate all these issues we seem to have? Am I the only one? :banghead:


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## 514passatvr6 (Dec 5, 2004)

woodywoods86 said:


> I would first bleed the slave cylinder. See what that gains you. This fix is honestly more for the transmission than the Clutch.
> 
> I would go with the NLS shim or another company that is producing Slave cylinder kits for the MK4 platform ( looks pretty beefy).


Took Transmission apart. and guess what... SAMMMME ISSSUE AS allanm. 

Springs in disc popped out... and let me tell u, the clutch was not abused.


I put new disc in, nls shim and the spacer for the shaft.


The car shifts amazing now! no creeping no nothing. No hard time going into 3rd.

Thank you everyone for the help.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

That's awesome you figured out the issue!


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

allanm, it seems like you have a early trans/box, like me; the shim issue... would require splitting the case, in our situation. Its encouraging; that people are starting to fix and resolve, our problems... we all seem to be having! eace: Thanks for posting and the pics/videos; hopefully, this collective knowledge will help us all, in our quest for relief from our trans woes!  Please, keep us posted; if, over time, things start happening or reverting back to the way they were before (keep your fingers crossed!).


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

billymade said:


> allanm, it seems like you have a early trans/box, like me; the shim issue... would require splitting the case, in our situation. Its encouraging; that people are starting to fix and resolve, our problems... we all seem to be having! eace: Thanks for posting and the pics/videos; hopefully, this collective knowledge will help us all, in our quest for relief from our trans woes!  Please, keep us posted; if, over time, things start happening or reverting back to the way they were before (keep your fingers crossed!).



Hi Billymade, fortunately for me I had an LSD fitted at the same time as the clutch went in so the bearings on the main shaft were all replaced along with the selector forks being bolted and welded and it went in as a nice fresh box with genuine vag oil etc, and the clutch was great until it started having selection problems.
I have had the box checked and its all fine luckily, its just the clutch friction plate that seems to be at fault here. It rattled from day 1 though and with many others saying that it should disappear after its broken in I just assumed it would go over time but after 1000 miles of driving it like a baby it decided it wouldn't select any gears at all, hence pulling the engine and Trans. 

If anyone wants any other pictures let me know as its all out ATM and I can get what ever.


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## 1.8T_Rbb1485 (Jan 30, 2010)

Where are people ordering the cap and shim?

OEM part # WHT-001-976 is the shim
OEM part # 02M-301-211-B is the black cover that has to be removed to install it.


Thanks!


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## kometmotor (Feb 13, 2007)

1.8T_Rbb1485 said:


> Where are people ordering the cap and shim?
> 
> OEM part # WHT-001-976 is the shim
> OEM part # 02M-301-211-B is the black cover that has to be removed to install it.
> ...


You order them directly from the dealer. The 2 parts run less than $30.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

allanm, I was essentially; in the same situation as you. I replaced all the bearings (metal particles, scored the bearings), installed a Wavetrac LSD and welded and "pinned" my shifter forks, I did have the 1st/2nd fork fail. You can read about what I did here: http://newbeetle.org/forums/transmission-talk/50942-turbo-s-just-lost-1st-2nd-my-02m-6-speed.html

By the way; which spec clutch specifically, did you experience the spring failure with? That information; could help other people, experiencing similar issues. Did Spec; warranty the disk or did you have to buy a new one?


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## mikochu (Aug 27, 2005)

Hey folks,

I just wanted to post about my findings with my 02Q in my MKVI GTI. I've had all the symptoms after having a Clutchmasters FX300 installed. I've been living with it for about a year now. I'm pretty good at knowing what to do if I can't disengage the clutch. Tapping the brake helps a lot, but sometimes I have to turn the car off and back on to pull out of reverse.

Anyway, I did some research and the MKV GTI has an 02Q with a shim. However, the MKVI GTI has a 02Q without a shim. I figured I'd give it a go. I went ahead and ordered a couple of shims, a cap, and what I thought was the external snap ring that is in satchimo's video. When the parts came in, I was surprised to see the snap ring I ordered was an internal style and was pretty beefy. I jacked up the car, removed the wheel and liner, and ta da! There is a heavy duty internal snap ring holding the cap in place. My "heavy duty" snap ring pliers didn't work well. I ended up having to modify a pair of needle nose pliers to get a better hold of the snap ring. After I got the snap ring off, I got the cap off and the the external snap ring came off easy. I tested for axial play and there was a little bit of play. I tried putting a shim and the snap ring back on, but the snap ring wouldn't seat back into the groove. Oh well, it looks like I'll either have to live with it or have the NLS shim installed.

Thanks to satchimo for a bit of hope!

-
Mike


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## allanm (Jan 19, 2014)

billymade said:


> allanm, I was essentially; in the same situation as you. I replaced all the bearings (metal particles, scored the bearings), installed a Wavetrac LSD and welded and "pinned" my shifter forks, I did have the 1st/2nd fork fail. You can read about what I did here: http://newbeetle.org/forums/transmission-talk/50942-turbo-s-just-lost-1st-2nd-my-02m-6-speed.html
> 
> By the way; which spec clutch specifically, did you experience the spring failure with? That information; could help other people, experiencing similar issues. Did Spec; warranty the disk or did you have to buy a new one?



The model for the clutch was SV872S with sprug hub for SMF, it was in the car about 6 months and covered around 800 miles of city driving and 200 miles of motorway/duel carriage (that's freeway for Americans).
Due to the age of the disc Spec couldn't offer warranty but have offered me a replacement at cost. (Total time since purchase was 9 months) 
Until i diagnose why its failed i think i will be using a different brand to see if the same happens. Spec did suggest that it's most likely play in the Input shaft so i need to get this checked, i can see it doesn't have any physical movement by hand and is totally rock solid.

So i will say for spec
1) They answered me quickly and were helpful
2) They have offered me a cost replacement out of warranty which they don't need to do
3) Up until the clutch went pop and I couldn't change gear it was a good drive apart from the rattle.

I didn't fit the clutch until it was out of warranty so even though it did rattle from the first day it was in the car i would of had no come back on the situation, i thought the rattle was 'Chatter' as described in other posts on here so i didn't take too much notice which should of been a warning. 
So what i have learned from this:
1) Buy a clutch and fit it ASAP don't buy it at the start of your project and fit it later the 120 day warranty might of run out by the time you do it!
2) Check it out if it rattles lol


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## graeme86 (Jun 27, 2003)

Question for *satchimo*. On the later gearboxes with the shim there is also another shim *WHT002050* 72x84.85x0.65mm which is #6 in this picture:










From this diagram, it also appears to sit on top of the bearing as well.

Is this required at all or does it need to be installed from inside as per drawing?

Also, the shim you recommend is only 0.65 mm thick, so can you stack two in there if the play is _really_ excessive?

Interestingly, the *WHT001976* 72x78.6x0.65mm shim you recommend (Part #7 in above)is not illustrated on the GQV diagram, but it is listed as a part for it anyway "as required"!

But then , so is this #6 shim.

Thank you very much for bringing this mod to the GQV community. :beer:

My gearbox whines like a supercharger in 2nd gear at the moment when going at a steady speed or deceleration - hoping this shim will get rid of this noise...although it does sound cool (just expensive!  ).


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## Elcroato (May 21, 2002)

mikochu, which year is your MKVI? I have one too. I'm curious if I have axial play and whether it could be shimmed. Is a symptom of this axial play "slop" in the engagement of the clutch? That is, engaging the clutch and then hearing a click or light clunk?


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## aircooled56 (Jul 6, 2006)

Shimmed up mine today :thumbup: Took all of 20 minutes.


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## mikochu (Aug 27, 2005)

Elcroato said:


> mikochu, which year is your MKVI? I have one too. I'm curious if I have axial play and whether it could be shimmed. Is a symptom of this axial play "slop" in the engagement of the clutch? That is, engaging the clutch and then hearing a click or light clunk?


Hmmm. I have a 2010. I think the only shimming we can so is on the slave cylinder using the NLS kit. I don't notice a click or light clunk...however, I get all the symptoms satchimo wrote about.


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## 1988gti (Nov 16, 2005)

I installed the shim just to be on the safe side but i have a slight whining noise when accelerating at low speeds in 5th and 6th gear. Does anyone else get that noise in those gears?

Also, i would definitely recommend all R32 owners to do this mod because my GQV transmission's main shaft bearing cracked and blew out of the trans housing because of the play that it had. Do this to be on the safe side. Parts are cheap and it's fairly simple for a handyman to install with the correct tools.


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## Snowboarder31 (Apr 1, 2008)

Installed the shim in mine today, worked like a charm.


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## graeme86 (Jun 27, 2003)

Installed mine.

Had a bit of play in mainshaft but now virtually nil. Shifting feels very nice.

Had a tiny whine in 3rd on decel which is now gone.

2nd gear still has whine but seems to be a bit less. 

Will change the oil again and see if it gets rid of it fully.


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## aar0n. (May 7, 2004)

On my definite list of things to do asap :thumbup:


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## PittsburghSteez (Jun 21, 2013)

Need to do this ASAP!!! Hopefully it fixes my shifting and clutch engagement issues.


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## Yak Meat (Sep 28, 2011)

need this! sorry to bump


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## Ephry73 (Feb 18, 2002)

Overall a half hour well spent. Fixed the whining Thank you!!!


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## vr6fanatic (Apr 5, 2003)

Will Be Adding this to my List of "Things to do R List"


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## RANDYM (Jun 3, 2009)

Satchimo,

First off, thanks for this post! I should be getting my shim and cap in the mail soon. I have a question for you, or anyone of you with 02M experience. I am wondering if any of you were hearing any noises on acceleration as well? Specifically in 3rd-4th gear. I have 142K on the clock. Shifts into all gears perfectly. But there is definitely some sort of grinding/whining noises going on. It started in 4th a few thousand miles ago and I think its slowly starting to happen in third as well(Or I am slowly driving myself crazy, which could be happening :laugh: ).

Two different things seem to be going on here. There seems to be a slight grinding/whine noise when in 4th while accelerating, and it turns to just a whine noise on decel.

The second thing going on here, is when I am in 3rd or 4th while driving normally. I hear what I can only describe as, "pingy"sound like if you had a loose metal ring hanging over a spinning metal shaft type of noise. If I add more throttle it goes away. When WOT I dont hear the metal pingy noise it at all. Hope that all makes sense. Cheers :beer: :beer:

-Randy


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## sahil (Apr 1, 2014)

*I had a similar issue, now problem solved. Thanks to the shim kit!*

Hey guys, :wave:

Just posting for those guys that may still be having this problem with their cars.

I had a clutch creep symptom i.e. with the clutch pedal fully depressed, the car would still carry on moving (forwards when in 1st gear, backwards when in reverse).
I tried all the usual, pressure bleeding, master cylinder, and it even came to the point where i was considering selling the car as spares or fitting a second hand gearbox which i wasn't to keen on.

Luckily I came across this solution of installing a shim. And trust me, it was a cheap and easy fix. 
The parts cost me £10 total and labour was £20.

The car drives like a charm and haven't had this issue. So give this a go! 

And thanks for posting this solution too, really appreciated!

Sahil


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## aar0n. (May 7, 2004)

Finally got around doing this yesterday and it completely eliminated all the slight whining I'd hear when coasting or decelerating in 4th. Best 15 minutes and $12 I've spent on the car in a while :laugh:


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Ugh! So, annoying; that this isn't a easy fix or accessible, for those of us with the "early" versions of the 02M without the plastic cover!  Anyone fixed the problem or found the issue; on the early 02M sealed versions?


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## Jake2k (Nov 25, 2010)

Is it normal for there to be some fluid behind the cap? The first time I removed the cap to install the shim it seemed dry but I've been having some shifting issues that only popped up after I installed it so today I'm taking it back out and there was about a teaspoon of liquid that came out when the cover was removed. It seemed to be more clear than gear oil, is there any way brake fluid got to it somehow?


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Jake2k said:


> Is it normal for there to be some fluid behind the cap? The first time I removed the cap to install the shim it seemed dry but I've been having some shifting issues that only popped up after I installed it so today I'm taking it back out and there was about a teaspoon of liquid that came out when the cover was removed. It seemed to be more clear than gear oil, is there any way brake fluid got to it somehow?


Smell the fluid. But yes if you don't drain the transmission before removing that cap there may be fluid behind it. Come to think about it there may be fluid even if you do drain it.


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## Jake2k (Nov 25, 2010)

Ok thats good to know, I removed the shim and tested the car and it's still having problems so at least I know the shim is not the cause. If anyone feels like taking a stab at it I'd really appreciate it: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6970199-My-o2m-stranded-me-on-the-causeway-today


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## Budgeezer (Apr 7, 2005)

Last summer we replaced the half case to get rid of the creep, and sticking in gear. After 9000 miles the issue resurfaced, added the shim and it's back to the way it should be, no creep, no getting locked in 1st or reverse and consistent engagement. Great thread thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Sent from my phone.


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## GLI_DRIVER (Mar 27, 2002)

Does anyone have the part #'s for this job?


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## Budgeezer (Apr 7, 2005)

GLI_DRIVER said:


> Does anyone have the part #'s for this job?



Check the first most about half way down.

Sent from my phone.


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## jagt21VR6 (Jun 2, 2005)

welp, back to the drawing board, noticed I was leaking hydraulic fluid from the trans yesterday, this will probably be about the 8-10th tiem we will have to pull this trans, and I would say probably the 5th slave cylinder in as many years...FML

obviously replacing the slave will only temporarily fix this issue...hoping to have the case machined right where the axial shaft is wearing out the case, we are thinking that extra little bit of room is causing enough play to allow the slave to excessively move hence killing it every year...fckkkkn so weak


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

What fluid are you running?


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## jagt21VR6 (Jun 2, 2005)

super blue...which i believe is DOT 4


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I ran a synthetic after I put my motor back in, fresh clutch and slave. It was going through fluid as fast as I could put it in. Then it would apparently suck air and I'd loose use of my clutch altogether aside from being engaged. I let her sit a month before I tried again and the pedal was good so long as I didn't let it suck air at the slave. Not fun to limp around like that. Plus the fluid was getting expensive and my grass was dying. Do I went regular old parts house DOT 4. It was cheaper, slightly heavier, and noticeably thicker. Ran a week and all was good. Bleed the system, brakes included, and been rocking it since. I'll too it off every month or so and only put and 1/8 of a cup. 

But my shifting habits have changed. I no longer sit at a redlight, or coast, or anything where my pedal will be pressed for any period of time. I'd say no longer than 5 seconds. The disengaging of the clutch and extending the slave is the main issue. Minimize that and see what happens.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

Did this on my 04.5 GLI that had 3rd gear noise and it eliminated it!.
Did it while replacing brakes and struts and it took maybe 5 minutes .. Thnx 

sent from my Galaxy S4 via Tapatalk


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## Delerious (Aug 8, 2007)

Did this in spring to my 04.5 gli that had a decel whine. Sound completely disappeared. Huge thanks and thumbs up for this!


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## platinumdub-18t (Jul 1, 2008)

one quick point... 02m cases come apart dramatically easier than an earilier 02j/02a or 02o case does. They just unbolt and lift apart... no pulling of gears, etc just a single snap-ring in later-style ones. early 02m's literally just fall apart if you pic up on the gear end (assuming tower is pulled already).


i haven't really seen anyone mention it in this thread yet... but: be cautious on the thickness of washer used. If you over-pack the height, you could end up doing damage on the other end of the shaft. The goal is to build the contained length of the shaft back to its original, while replacing an aluminum surface with the hardened steel washer's surface. If you over-pack, then you will force steel on steel wear and could be worse off long-term. These shims come in varying thickness - pick a few and do some close measurements to see what's the best fit. Shimming a tranny with no noises could create noises of a different type, lol.

I have repaired a number of 02m cases of both type. For my mk2 1.8t 02m (later type), I actually had a huge amount of wear in the case from this when I bought it, so I actually machined down the case and had a stainless steel shoulder washer made on a lathe and pressed into the case, then ground down on a cnc mill to the exact original height... will never have to deal with that ever again. These shims will help arrest the play, but don't actually address the area where the real wear is occuring which slowly and gradually brings your 02m to the state where these noises start to happen. It will likely be good for years, but eventually you will have more case wear. Most of us do not keep these cars long enough to have to worry about that, though 

For the early type cases, just pull the outer bearing races, and replace with a new bearing/race pair and use correct shim thickness to return stack height to OEM spec. You can find 02m tranny service manuals on google if you look hard enough. Early trannys with cladder are due to bad outer bearings 99% of the time, so shimming on an old bearing will work for a few weeks/months but the bad bearing will continue to wear and will re-occur... do it all in one shot and be done. Also note, that when the older 02m gets bearing play, it will often create a leak on the shaft seal inside the bell housing, so add the super-cheap oil seals to your parts list and also fix that up (bearings allow shaft to pivot slightly and will stretch/score these oil seals juuuuust enough to break the seal for fine mists of fluid to get out).

Wish i had pics of my shoulder washer fix - was intensive, but will suit my needs of a mega-clutch with mega pressure plate reaction forces onto that same location.


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## 72marinablue (Dec 1, 2008)

Just wanted to be able to help anyone out who is still looking to solve issues. I had some pretty severe deceleration whine in all gears on my 2004 GLI, more in 2nd and 4th. Changing fluid to Redline mt90 and installing the shim completely solved my issue and the transmission is working great now!


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

I hope you guys realize this is a temporary fix. it's caused by the bearing spinning it's outside edge in the aluminum transmission casing. It's a serious design flaw. You can fix it in a way that will be more permanent using this method http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...and-forth-play&highlight=02m+input+shaft+play.


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## ajvanloo (Sep 8, 2014)

Hey all,

Sorry to barge in but I'm getting a grinding noise with deceleration and at certain rpms on my MK5 FSI 6 speed manual. I noticed it after I picked it up from a clutch and timing belt replacement. It essentially sounds like a diesel or tractor. Any ideas? Here's a YouTube video I recorded

http://youtu.be/wo9JdNZl3uo

Thanks!


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## SethVWJetta (Mar 14, 2004)

*Thank you for this post!*

My 2004 GLI produced 4/20/04 was cured by adding this shim to the main bearing. My jetta has 196K on it and it is now quiet after all these years! No more groaning noises and clutch engagement issues.


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## buterbn (Jan 12, 2009)

Just started to add the shim.. As i popped off plastic cover, some oil drained out.. I didn't notice this happen in the instruction video. Is this normal? Happen to anyone else?


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## GLI_DRIVER (Mar 27, 2002)

Yup mine dribbled too when I removed the cap. I topped it anyway.


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## 02JttaGLI (Nov 23, 2010)

So what's the fix for the older 02m without the end cap?


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

I'll work on it. I have such a tranny on a project car now, significant whining in all gears that increases with rpm and is lineaer with input shaft speed. I'll strip I'd down, take measurements and replace what is out of whack. What else can be done? If it has some preload issues that gets dealt with and should be fine. 

Obviously the later 02M box was designed to allow for a significant degree of movement in the main shaft and still remotely function. Whether or not the end cap main bearing is supposed to be pressed into the case securely and immoveable is another story altogether. I have in my possession an R32 crate tranny which has the common end cap and obviously no shim will be present, like all other 02M's. I'll pop the cap and check for play and see if that bearing is a tight fit in the hole. 

I'll get back to you all with good data this week. 

Cheers 
Jeff.


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## 02JttaGLI (Nov 23, 2010)

satchimo said:


> I'll work on it. I have such a tranny on a project car now, significant whining in all gears that increases with rpm and is lineaer with input shaft speed. I'll strip I'd down, take measurements and replace what is out of whack. What else can be done? If it has some preload issues that gets dealt with and should be fine.
> 
> Obviously the later 02M box was designed to allow for a significant degree of movement in the main shaft and still remotely function. Whether or not the end cap main bearing is supposed to be pressed into the case securely and immoveable is another story altogether. I have in my possession an R32 crate tranny which has the common end cap and obviously no shim will be present, like all other 02M's. I'll pop the cap and check for play and see if that bearing is a tight fit in the hole.
> 
> ...


Please do! Thanks!


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## 02JttaGLI (Nov 23, 2010)

Any updates??


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Sorry, not yet. I need to get through a number of other things before I dedicate my work bench to RnD. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is some sintering of the gears which results in the same noise, but a tear down will confirm. I'll have something in the next month I think. 

Jeff


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## v-dug (Aug 23, 2012)

OK, a couple of stupid questions:

How do I tell what my transmission is? (02M or 02Q) I don't have my car in front of me at the moment to go poke around but will later.

And has anyone successfully done this on an MK6 GTI? (2011 specifically). I have the clutch creep issue after installing a Southbend Stage 3 drop-in disk and this sounds a lot better than having the trans pulled again to do the NLS slave shim kit. VERY hopeful to be able to spend $30 in parts vs $600 for getting the trans pulled again.

Satchimo, you've done a great dead for VW owners with this here thread.


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Ok, you have the 02Q transmission. I can only guess as to whether or not the MK6 has the washer/spacer installed from factory, but I believe I heard somewhere that the washer was introduced to the MK5 02Q transmission, but it's hit or miss with the 02Q boxes found in the MK6. 

Either way, it's worth a look and takes very little time to do. I suspect that your clutch creep is like 99% of others' and your transmission is missing that washer. 

Jeff.


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## Mr_Asher (Sep 14, 2014)

*great post*

i have an 04 gli .. was making the whining noise in all the gears, most noise was in third gear.. ended up buying the shim and installing it today along with a fluid flush on the tranny.. this solved the issue !! great post and fixed all the issues only costed 15$ from ecstuning.com


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## 02JttaGLI (Nov 23, 2010)

satchimo said:


> Sorry, not yet. I need to get through a number of other things before I dedicate my work bench to RnD. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is some sintering of the gears which results in the same noise, but a tear down will confirm. I'll have something in the next month I think.
> 
> Jeff


So you find anything out?


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## mattkosem (Apr 29, 2004)

I have a 13 R that seems to be behaving kind of like what I see described here. I hear some whining, which has been more pronounced since adding mounts. Gears 1, 2, and sometimes 3 seem to get "stuck" a bit while disengaging. It is almost like there's something dragging along the way when shifting out of one gear to engage the next.

Are newer 02Q gearboxes like this still prone to this issue? It seems to happen most when needing to do a lot of shifting up and down through lower gears for me. I have an RSR clutch (love it), which has been on for about 15k miles at this point.

What I'm seeing seems to be somewhat temperature dependent, as I didn't see it in the winter and the engagement/disengagent issues and whining/chatter on decel seems to go away in the rain.

--Matt


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## MBRACKLIFFE (Jan 17, 2003)

Just put the shim in my160k mile R and what a difference. Thank you so much for finding this simple little fix. Gear whine is way less, shifting feels better and my clutch actually engages in the same spot every time now and is back up near the top of the pedal throw.

:beer::beer::thumbup:


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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

Just took off the black cap. Is transmission fluid supposed to come out? Im not sure why it did as it wasn't mentioned and in the video, the fluid did not come out. Granted it wasn't a whole lot, but still concerning as to why its there.


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## 98_jetta_mk3 (Feb 1, 2008)

Yeah some fluid might come out

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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

Would it be necessary to add any more fluid? I mean it wasn't that much. I just changed it last year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## 98_jetta_mk3 (Feb 1, 2008)

I would double check the level just to make sure

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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

There is no way to check the level. I guess you need to open the fill. If some comes out, that means it's filled. Any other way?

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## 98_jetta_mk3 (Feb 1, 2008)

That's the only way i know

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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

Ok Thank you

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## aka_deno (Mar 30, 2005)

Thought this might be helpful in this thread as well:

Bumping this thread in case anyone else see's this issue.

My 2004 R32 w/ 178k miles on it clutch failed.

I see why now:
(and no its not that ECSTuning 2-piece clutch kit lol)









and the cause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYjd6SxyJHA

Input shaft bearing clip has machined itself a nice little groove in the gear side case. I never knew about the shim option, and its at a point now where i don't think 2 shim's would even help.









what it should look like:










A new gear side transmission case for the standard 2004 R32 6-speed 02M is part#: 02M301103L cost at dealer is: $783 Red order from Germany. 5-10 business days. List is $983 for that. Then you have to worry about swapping the bearings and gears from the current cast into the new case (est 3-5hrs labor) before its ready to install onto your trans.

I have elected to go with APTuning in Lebanon, PA to have them machine my current case and get the input shaft and bearing to a point where it won't even need the OEM shim that should have been installed from the factory on these transmissions.

I will report back once i receive the case back with the machine work done.


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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

Mine still had a small amount of play even after simmons the mains haft bearing. Does this mean I should try another shim?

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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

I still kind of hear the deceleration whine noise. Didn't seem to do much for that, though I think my car shifts a lot easier.

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## Rakkaus (Apr 13, 2015)

Any updates for people with the older 02M case? got a 20th anni with no plastic cover, and the same noises.


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## BigTurboGLI (Sep 7, 2015)

04.5 GLI here, just wanted to say the shim and some fresh MT-90 cured EVERY problem I was having, whine on decel,
locking in 1st and reverse, odd clunks, creep, and mostly inconsistent engagement points!

sometimes it would let out on the floor, other times top of the stroke and so hard it would click your teeth together.

this with a Spec stage 3 and a ton of horsepower! 

Who thought 20 bucks could make such a difference!!!


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## Vr6Corey (Jan 28, 2009)

Has anyone had to use 2 shims to take out almost all play or a different shim thickness?


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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

I'd like to know also. I used 1, and it got rid of hard shifting completely. But the whine is still there, and there's enough play to add another shim.

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## Teh_Chris (Dec 31, 2007)

I'm running Subaru trans fluid and about to put the shim in the trans of my .:Gli (no whining or hardships but prevention is worth the 5 minute job)

The shim and mt-90 in my supercharged R solved all the problems

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## Vr6Corey (Jan 28, 2009)

Ive shimmed my r32 a while back and i remember it having some slack 
Wondering if i should try and take up the rest of the slack with another


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## Vr6Corey (Jan 28, 2009)

04v-dubGLI said:


> I'd like to know also. I used 1, and it got rid of hard shifting completely. But the whine is still there, and there's enough play to add another shim.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Just updating for others including you GLI
I hoisted the car at work after doing this 3years ago
Now with a different clutch in it, i noticed that if you went in and out of the clutch and than put it in gear i would creep just the slightest bit (not even a 1/4") and only once all other gears would be fine if you cycled through them while remaining clutch in

I used a dial indicator and found just enough play still in and out which to me would allow slight clutch hang up on the spline

I shimmed it again and it took out all the play while still being able to use the snap ring perfectly with ease
No more initial creep


So yes, you may need to use 2shims as per my experience if there is still play


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## satchimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Vr6Corey said:


> Just updating for others including you GLI...
> 
> ...So yes, you may need to use 2shims as per my experience if there is still play



Nice work Vr6Corey, thanks for the contribution!

jeff.


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## luckypenney (Nov 29, 2010)

I have the NLS shim and the main shaft shim. No Issues. CM FX850 TD, aluminum FW.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

So i've got an older 02M without the plastic cap for the input bearing on the driver side.

How do i properly measure/preload a new input shaft bearing?

Is there a hard set spec or is it based on the condition of the case? 

Is it a lot of trial and error setting the race? I hate pulling races but if that's what it takes. 

How well does that loctite 406 work? Should i use that if i'm gonna have to constantly pulling the race out to make sure i got it properly set?


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

I found all that information; in the software based eBahn (Bentley) manual or online through the erWin (the paper manuals from Bentley; will NOT have this type of in depth info/procedures).


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

Is this it?

http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...ing_input_shaft_(through_gearbox_date_18053)/

Eeesh. Looks straightforward enough but i'm not gonna lie: i feel a little intimidated without these special tools.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

For the bearing races; I just followed some diy's, if you use a mig welder and weld a bead on the them, they will fall out (no need for the special Kukko puller tool). I used brass punches; to carefully install new ones and a Clamping Dial Indicator (Pittsburgh Item #93051 from Harbor Freight); to measure the play. 

Again, if this is beyond your skills; get a quote from a place like Aptuning and have them go through it to check out the whole unit. I would also; install a ARP bolt kit, for the differential as well (ARP diff bolt set VW/Audi 02M/02Q [ARP 204-3003]). Drilling out the rivets; isn't hard, a drill press and a hydraulic press, makes things easier.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

Thanks again Billy!

I'll have to look into that clamping dial indicator.

Anywhere in particular online I can get some new tapered input shaft bearings? The manual says to replace both at the same time, y/n?

Same with the shims. I figure I have buy a set of them and then determine which one I need to use on the spot.

I can't seem to find the exact part numbers.

I see this on ECS Tuning but it looks to be newer 02Ms only.

https://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswage...train/Manual_Transmission/Rebuild_Components/

Is the dealership my only hope for these parts?


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes, I would replace them both; the trans tech that assembled my trans and measured the preload, found that all my bearing were in spec and didn't have to be shimmed. 

I got pretty much, all my bearings from the VW dealership but I have seen, that bearings seem to be more available now (I replaced all the bearings; as mine were scored from metal shavings/particles). At the time; there wasn't a choice.

Keep in mind; I had my transmission apart and I was able to read the bearing part numbers in the trans, search that way (plus confirm ordered parts were matching part #'s).

I have seen bearing sets on ebay for the 02M and these guys seem to sell parts: 

http://www.zelek.com/vw_hard_parts.htm

After exhaustive research; trying to cross bearing numbers and call a zillion places, even calling oem's I hit a wall on bearing availability. At that time; the oem's were telling me that all the bearings were being sold/distributed to Germany and VW AG, were not for sale to the aftermarket, that may have changed by now? They said; they have a exclusive contract for so many years and then, after that they may make them for the aftermarket. 

For the differential bearings; they are a common size and you should have no problem getting them at any auto parts store (the particular size; is used on MANY cars and even USA/domestic cars). I think I got a set of quality TIMKEN bearings; online, Rock Auto or even amazon for dirt cheap. For the other internal bearings; at the time of my rebuild, most were dealer only (unique sizes; specific to that transmission). Check my rebuild thread; for more info. Seeing how you are only replacing a couple of bearings; they probably won't be terribly expensive from your vw dealer; just research and decide what is best for you. Online VW dealers; tend to be cheaper on prices but sometimes, dealing with your local VW dealer is a good idea and they can help figuring out what you need and its easier to return parts, if they end up getting the wrong ones. Be sure; to have them search for parts, based on your transmission code and VIN #, to ensure you get the right parts.


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## Galant409VR$ (Sep 23, 2015)

Hey all

So I was doing some looking into clutch creep and read that there's main shaft shim kit you can order for the 02m. I have 03 gti 25v vr6 with the 02m but when I looked at my transmission it doesn't have that cap that you remove to get at the main shaft bearing.. I googled the 02m transmission and most I've seen don't have the cap? I want to install the shim kit so any info would be helpful.

Thanks


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, you have a early version of the 02M; to reshim (possibly repair) the input shaft/bearing, you would need to pull the trans and split the case, to investigate what is going on. You would need to figure out; if the output bearing/shaft, is the cause of the problem. There have been other solutions to the issue; they attempt to address these issues, through the hydraulic aspect of the clutch. This is caused by increased pressure of the high performance clutches; this perspective of the problem, is that the stock system cannot handle the increased hydraulic pressure needed, to activate the clutch and fully engage/disengage the gears correctly. What type of clutch; are you running, how much mods/horsepower do you have and how many miles on the car?

Check out this thread; for other hydraulic based solutions, to the clutch engagement problems:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...h-issues-Replaced-everything-still-have-issue


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## Galant409VR$ (Sep 23, 2015)

billymade said:


> Well, you have a early version of the 02M; to reshim (possibly repair) the input shaft/bearing, you would need to pull the trans and split the case, to investigate what is going on. You would need to figure out; if the output bearing/shaft, is the cause of the problem. There have been other solutions to the issue; they attempt to address these issues, through the hydraulic aspect of the clutch. This is caused by increased pressure of the high performance clutches; this perspective of the problem, is that the stock system cannot handle the increased hydraulic pressure needed, to activate the clutch and fully engage/disengage the gears correctly. What type of clutch; are you running, how much mods/horsepower do you have and how many miles on the car?
> 
> Check out this thread; for other hydraulic based solutions, to the clutch engagement problems:
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...h-issues-Replaced-everything-still-have-issue


I'm running a spec stage one with a 9lbs i believe aluminum single mass. the car is stock as far as power goes and it has 114k on it. it chatters and the engagement point is right on the very top of the clutch pedal. I was just wanting to see if i could make the car chatter and shift a bit better with ethe shim kit. Does switching the fluid to redline mt-90 really help with how the car shifts?


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

I know; early on, that different fluids; were seen as a way to "dampen" the sounds of the chatter. I've never used that fluid; so, I cannot say. The only thing; that I have heard, to really reduce the noise of the clutches (aside from a stock DMF) is installing a FluidDampr harmonic balancer. I never installed one; so, I don't know for sure but it is one thing, that attempts to dampen, what the stock DMF did. As with any of these marketing claims for all this performance stuff; you won't know, until you install it on your own vehicle. :banghead:

1.8T: http://www.fluidampr.com/product/551231/
VR6: http://www.fluidampr.com/product/551221/

When I bought my SouthBend clutch kit; John told me to stay away from the lighter flywheels, like you have because of the chatter characteristics and harmonics of the 02M trans. The flywheel; was made out of steel and weighs 19 lbs.; part # SBCF0503. Even though; heavier than yours, it still revved faster, than stock and was supposed, to be quieter than a aluminum lightweight flywheel, such as yours.

http://www.dxdracingclutches.com/


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## Galant409VR$ (Sep 23, 2015)

The clutch feels very strong in my car it's just at the very top of the pedal that it starts to engage. Also it's hard to get a good start from dead stop in first great. Is that because of the light flywheel?


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

So, are you having problems with getting into gear (1st/reverse) and the car creeping forward, in first gear? One perspective (aside from the axial play or internal mechanical problems); it is related to, the inadequacy of the stock clutch master cylinder.


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## Galant409VR$ (Sep 23, 2015)

It sticks in first and reverse gear occasionally but never creeps.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, I guess you have a number of options: install the NLS shim kit, check the input shaft for play (both requiring pulling of the trans) or install the EuroWise master cylinder upgrade (no trans pull). To address; the chatter issue, install a heavier steel flwheel or install a FluidDampr and see how that dampens the noises.


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## Pawloski (Jan 17, 2016)

satchimo said:


> I thought I would share some recent experieinces with these 3 issues, what they have in common, and a simple cost effective remedy.
> 
> 02M whining/grinding noise on deceleration, mostly 3rd gear, common to many 6 speed trannys found in MK4 1.8t's, 24V Vr6's, R32's. Not much of a problem on Mk5/Mk6 with 02Q, more about that later.
> 
> ...


I just completed this repair this evening. I had an AWFUL grinding/whining noise in 3rd gear. All other gears were fine (slight whine in 4th). The sound was literally awful. I didn't think there was any way this simple 30 min fix could solve it.... however IT DID. It turns out my 02M on my VR6 GLI did have a shim behind the snap ring...however it was COMPLETELY destroyed. Over time somehow it had worn down and pretty much shattered. Getting the snap ring out took a bit of finesse (not as easy as the video). After I cleaned out the broken shim and installed the new, the snap ring took a bit of work to actually lock into place. Once that happened I had ZERO play on the input shaft bearing. And, low and behold, THE NOISE IS COMPLETELY GONE! There is not the slightest grinding noise. Thank you so much for this post! It wouldn't hurt to have a spare snap ring on hand in case you broke yours trying to get it out but seriously wow. I had my car at a mechanic and they said my tranny was going out in third gear because of the grind. DO THIS IF YOU HAVE ANY GRINDING IN THIRD GEAR ON DECEL!!!!


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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

I installed the shim and new cap about a year ago. It really helped, however there is still some noise and I noticed after install that there was still some play, a bit more than in the video. Am I able to put a second shim on top of the first one to get rid of the play completely?


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## Vr6Corey (Jan 28, 2009)

04v-dubGLI said:


> I installed the shim and new cap about a year ago. It really helped, however there is still some noise and I noticed after install that there was still some play, a bit more than in the video. Am I able to put a second shim on top of the first one to get rid of the play completely?


Yes you can, some applications may require another.
If you page back 1-3 pages you'll see my response in doing so. If you feel there is enough room, buy another cap and shim and have at it. Note that if you are running upgraded mounts, you will always have some transmission harmonics I find as its transmitted through the front as a whole.


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## 04v-dubGLI (Sep 29, 2011)

Vr6Corey said:


> Yes you can, some applications may require another.
> If you page back 1-3 pages you'll see my response in doing so. If you feel there is enough room, buy another cap and shim and have at it. Note that if you are running upgraded mounts, you will always have some transmission harmonics I find as its transmitted through the front as a whole.


Thank you for the reply! Figures, you had originally replied to me a few pages ago lol. I quickly skimmed the thread as I read through this a while ago, but I must have passed over it. I just ordered a new shim and cap from ECS. I feel as though I definitely have room to add at least 1 more shim. I am currently running stock engine mounts. The original shim decreased the sound, but still not enough, so hopefully this gets rid of the majority of it like it did in your case.


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## gaz2002 (Jun 12, 2016)

Hi

Do you know if this fix works on a GRF gearbox on a 2004 golf 2.0 gt tdi?

Thanks


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Look for a black plastic cap; on the side of the transmission.


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## gaz2002 (Jun 12, 2016)

Yes it has the Cap on gearbox and same part number etc but vw said the shim is not for my car? Tried asking them to check if they do 1 for my car but think I was talking to a monkey or something lok


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## GvFx (Feb 16, 2015)

I just installed for my 2006 A3 and the issue disappeared. (i ****ing love vwvortex and their inhabitants)

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

*A tip to those thinking about doing this as a preventative maintenance measure:*

I know that nowhere in the OP does it say that this is supposed to be a preventative measure but there are always people, like myself, who stumble on these things and think "hey that is super easy and cheap, I may as well do it preventatively". Well that is not exactly how it was for me, I actually had an issue I thought this would fix but turns out I fixed it with something else and I still had this shim so I figured "what the hell, may as well put it in"

Don't do that! By all means go ahead and check how much movement you have with the shaft (as shown in the video) but if there is minimal movement already (like with mine) you may find that when you put the shim in, the c-clip cannot return to it's proper position. This is what happened to me. I didn't take note of the exact position of the c-clip before removing so after I put the shim in and put the c-clip back I did not realize that the shim was actually completely covering the space/groove in the shaft that the c-clip is supposed to snap back into. I re-installed the cover and went for a drive, immediately noticing a rotational whirring/light grinding. I've since corrected the issue by removing the shim with a magnet but the moral of the story is, check the amount of play the shaft has and if it is minimal be prepared for the possibility that the shim actually adds too much space. In my case there was absolutely no way that the c-clip was going to make it back into it's "spot" with that shim.


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## AustinVaughan (Aug 23, 2008)

glad i found this thread :beer:


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## mason92tyler51 (Feb 25, 2015)

Can the main shaft bearing be replaced without splitting the case? Really cant find any info on how to replace it.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

As far as I know; the trans case would need to be split and many times, the bearing will be spinning in the case. This would damage the case and need to be repaired or the case halves need replaced. VW transmission specialists; like APTuning, can repair this issue. You might contact them and see what solutions; they have for the bearing failure issue.

Here is a good article; discussing the common bearing issue and fixes: 

http://www.excelerateperformance.com/news/vwaudi-02m-transmission-input-shaft-bearing-problems


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## mason92tyler51 (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks for the help!


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

No problem; please let us know, how things work out and what repairs you end up doing. It seems, most of us 02M owners; have to do repairs at some point, it is inevitable. Not a matter of if but when.


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## mason92tyler51 (Feb 25, 2015)

billymade said:


> No problem; please let us know, how things work out and what repairs you end up doing. It seems, most of us 02M owners; have to do repairs at some point, it is inevitable. Not a matter of if but when.


https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57fec4df1a130/20161002_202308.jpg?
By the way, here is my problem at the moment haha.


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Hmmm, looks like it is time to pull the trans!


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## mason92tyler51 (Feb 25, 2015)

billymade said:


> Hmmm, looks like it is time to pull the trans!


Sad thing is i just had it out two weeks ago. Wish i would have read this thread then, but you live and learn. 

Sent from my SM-N930P using Tapatalk


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## billymade (Jan 29, 2008)

Welcome to the club; i have had mine out, multiple times as well. Hopefully, you can have it professionally repaired correctly and get your car, back on the road! eace:


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## MBRACKLIFFE (Jan 17, 2003)

Just an FYI not sure if this was mentioned in the previous 5 pages but....

I had to replace a rear seized caliper and as part of my maintenance I flushed all of fluid for new including the line to the clutch. If you bleed the clutch after installing the shim the clutch returns to it's crappy original condition. So I recommend that the shim be removed prior to bleeding the clutch and reinstalled afterwards. Just my finding, not sure if anyone else has run into the same issue???


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## Vr6Corey (Jan 28, 2009)

Describe crappy original state. Like mushy? Ive bled several clutches with shim install right after or even months down from original install without it feeling crappy. Perhaps you had air in the line?


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## MBRACKLIFFE (Jan 17, 2003)

Vr6Corey said:


> Describe crappy original state. Like mushy? Ive bled several clutches with shim install right after or even months down from original install without it feeling crappy. Perhaps you had air in the line?


Sorry haven't been on here much lately. I bleed with a power bleeder so there was no air in the line. So prior to shim install I experienced all symptoms per original post. Especially varying engagement points of the clutch in the clutch pedal. After the shim install the pedal/clutch engaged consistently. After the bleeding, no more consistency. I have since taken the shim out and re-bled the system... same issue as before. I reinstalled the shim and back to to consistent engagement again. Hope that helps clarify.


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## AsadP (May 16, 2018)

*02M Mod on Audi TT 2003*

Hey all!

Firstly, to the OP, thank you SO much for this post as it's helped me incredibly.
(sorry for reviving an old thread but it's much needed)

I've signed up to this forums to literally thank you in posting the instructions and this mod on here for everyone to come across.

I bought an Audi TT 2003 back in April 2016 and since *day one* it would have grinding on deceleration.

Now I hadn't test driven the car as the sale was quite late at night and the seller was about to close up. I drove it on the motorway and initially noticed a small whining noise, didn't think much of it.

8 months down the line and it's whined so bad that it's just stupidly loud. During those 8 months I came across this mod and said to myself, what the hell is an 02M, and I just closed the web page.

Until about 1 month before this post, I saw a video of an 02M mod being carried out and I said maybe this could be accessible as easily on the TT, voila! I checked behind my passenger wheel and I was happy to find that it were an 02M gearbox.

I purchased the parts (TPS / £11 for both) and done the mod myself and wow.

YOU are a life saver for this post and I cannot thank you enough!

Shifts much more better, grinding/whining has just gone as if I'm driving a new car!


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

*Bump*

This thread that was created over 5 years ago is still delivering today! I got my shim kit installed today after encountering the following issues not long after my break-in period on my aftermarket Spec Stage 2+ Clutch and 20lb Matching Spec flywheel.

I've been having the following problems. The clutch holds great though!


 Having issues with the car violently jerking frequently when downshifting and up shifting and not rev-matching. Especially into 2nd when downshifting! :banghead:
 Having occasional stuck in gear issue in 1st and reverse when first starting for the day. Also will sometimes occur after warmed up and shifting from 1st to 2nd.
 Having issue when first starting where clutch engages into gear before fully releasing the pedal for the first few shifts. After some shifting has occurred this symptom goes away after it's warmed up.

Installation went pretty smooth and I topped off a little gear oil since I had some from the last change after a little dripped out when removing the cover on my 2k5 Jetta GLI. 

It was very nice out today and my problem seems to occur when it's colder out so I'll have to wait a few days to see.

After going driving today the engagement felt really good and I'm praying the violently jerking when downshifting is remedied. So far the shifts between gears seems much smoother and I'm very impressed! I just wish I would've found out about this sooner! I paid one of my trusted shops $270 to diagnose the issues above and they told me the following>

"Pressure plate Engagement is not 100%. Pressure Plate is grabbing on one point then has delayed engagement for the rest of plate." > Need new clutch/flywheel.

My other shop that installed my clutch said I needed a new clutch kit to have everything on hand and was going to drop the transmission again to the tune of $700+ labor + over 1k in parts! I'm hoping I didn't damage my current clutch and flywheel and transmission too bad with all the violent shifts over the last year. I guess I'll find out but sure hope most my issues are gone and feeling much better now. 

I'm also aware of this other NLS shim.

So, if I end up needing a new clutch and flywheel after only 13k miles/1.5 years then I will definitely do the NLS shim kit as well! Time will tell. 

Thanks a lot OP!! :thumbup:


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

Spec stage 2.5. opened up my 02Q 2011 GTI and ZERO axial play with cap access ....

Stuck in first and second, rarely third. Random. Can double clutch fine or blip gas most times to get it out of gear.

Tried everything. Spec said I have a billet spacer built into my TOB... I checked through removing stater... I do have billet cap spacer.... Still have issue.

I guess I have to shim on inside .... Fml. This has to wait until spring now since no garage.

I just want to go stock.... Cheaper and forget tuning the car....


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## popo2010 (May 25, 2020)

Hi,

Really, many thanks for the tip. The problem on my Seat Leon 1M 20vt is now solved, after 3 years and 60.000 km of using the car.

There was a grinding noise when changing from 4th to third gear. Thanks to this tip and only 13€ spent on the two pieces, the noise has completely disappeared and shifting is even smoother.

Thanks a lot!


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## stefan.joketic (May 25, 2020)

*Someone to help about mk5*

I was trying to find problem on mine mk5.It is 6 speed manual 2004 with 1.9 TDI BKC.I dont know gearbox code because mine sticker in trunk is gone.I have problems with my gearbox.Sometimes is like the gearbox refuses to go in 1st gear and it scrapes sometimes when i put it in reverse.But the main problem I have is the whining sound in 4,5 and 6th gear.I am really hoping that this shim kit is porblem.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I have read numerous threads lately on clutch issues, tranny issues, and even some of crank issues with later gen cars. 

Since the pressure plate is fixed to the flywheel then it is independent of the throw out bearing/slave cylinder. Higher torque rated clutch kits have stronger pressure plates but if the PP is fixed to the flywheel then the force needed to disengage the clutch comes from the slave cylinder. That force is eventually transferred down the line and pushed against the crank. Any weakness in the crank bearings will cause the crank to eventually 'walk' away from the tranny. This leads to the clutch creep/dragging symptoms since the slave cylinder has to reach further. This problem would be totally unrelated to this 02m shim fix. The NLS shim for 02m slave cylinder would help here. But is the need of this NLS shim from poor tolerances on a new clutch setup, a weak or inferior slave not extending the full OEM length, or possibly crank walk. 

To this simple 02m shim fix, to me is similar but not related. It develops from slack tolerances in transmission bearing seats. Heavy on/off throttle, in gear with clutch engaged, causes these bearings and shafts to slam back and forth increasing the tolerances and only exacerbating the problem if left unattended. Hard digs and dumped clutches can beat one side of the seats also due to the style of the cut on the gears. Any shifting issues 'fixed' from this shim would be internal and related to syncros and/or physical alignments corrected by pushing everything over and holding it in place again. 

I personally enjoy engine braking. I love rev matching and letting it burble up to a redlight or stop sign. I usually roll to a stop in 3rd with a little brake but have very often gone from hammering on it to engine braking it at high RPMs in traffic because of no use of turn signals or just some Simple Jack with their phone in their face. I have done this shim install years ago and can't really say if I could tell a difference. I am in need of clutch now and will do a good visual inspection of my 02m when it's off and on the ground within the next few weeks hopefully.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I CANNOT BELEIVE THIS WORKED. I have a stage 4 south bend clutch and it was literally not drivable before this. I did a new master, slave, bleeder block and hose to try and fix my creep and disengagement issues, none of them worked. My clutch also came with a slave shim. This fixed it completely. It's literally a 15 minute job. 

My symptoms were, after driving and pressing the clutch in while in 1st, or reverse, the car would continue to move. I was unable to get the car out of gear, I had to shut the engine off.


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