# MK4 R32 Turbo. Power loss issues on the Track



## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

I'm currently running the HPA DTM kit with modifications. The modifications are removing the stock intake manifold to go with the older HPA short runner IM, head spacer for 9:1 CR, and added an intercooler. I also dropped in the Deatschwerks DW65V AWD drop in fuel pump. I went to the track this past weekend and had some weird power cut issues arise.

Basically on Friday 2nd & 3rd session and Saturday 3rd session of the weekend when I would get onto the back straightway, as soon as I made the 4->5 shift and let out the clutch I would lose all power. It's as if it was just coasting and the throttle body just stopped responding all together. After coasting for most of the back straight and after some breaking time I would be able to blip the throttle to downshift and would then have 0 issues on the rest of the track until I got back to the straight and put it into 5th.

This did not happen every single time I was on the back straight either. Only on the later sessions. The only thing that appears to be consistent in the issue is that over 2/3 a tank of fuel this didn't happen. First session Friday morning 0 issues.. I started the track day with maybe an 1/8th of a tank from full. After Friday's sessions I topped the tank off to full and it didn't do anything like this the first 2 sessions out but it did the last session of the day. Then 3rd session it started doing it again. But I was not monitoring my fuel levels to hard so I can't for certain say this is true. Especially since fuel demands have 0 to do with gear.

On Sunday morning it started to do this on other parts of the track in 4th gear and finally once coming around a corner in 3rd where the car also stalled out. I had not refueled between sat night and sunday am. I was able to restart the car after a minute or so and concluded my track use after that. Since then it starts and drives around the city just fine with 0 issues.

Unfortunately I do not have any data logs I can provide at this time and have no idea when I could make it back to a track to try and induce this phenomenon again.

I have an email into HPA about this and they keep trying to tell me the DW65V awd version is an insufficient fuel pump and is only good to 360hp on the AWD model cars (as some capacity is diverted to the transferring of fuel from left side to right side of the tank, and if I want to go above 12psi (which i'm targeting 14ish now) I need to upgrade to an inline booster pump. I can't exactly agree with that when I have 0 issues in 3rd gear and 4th gear most of the day, and as I said fuel demands should have 0 to do with gear. If I'm running out of fuel at WOT with higher boost/fuel demands I should experience this as soon as I step on the pedal in any gear. When I first dropped this pump in, I monitored the AFR logs on a vagcom when I turned the boost up and didn't see any issues in 3rd or 4th gear when making sure everything was okay as the boost got dialed up. My only thought if it is fuel related is that on higher G right hand turns if the fuel all sloshes to the drivers side of the tank (where the main pick up isn't) and I get on the power through the top of 3rd and 4th, the amount of fuel in the right side of the tank where the pick up is runs out and there isn't enough capacity in the transfer pump to keep up. I don't recall this happening when powering out of any left hand turns. (this is all speculation as I have 0 idea right now).

Does anybody else here have any thoughts or comments? If it is indeed a fuel pump issue that's fine and I don't have a problem upgrading, but I need a better explanation that makes sense to me.

Also Pic for fun.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

stop focusing on gears- loss of power is not a gearing problem, nor is it gear dependant. You should be looking into spark, fuel & timing. Without logs, you are shooting in the dark, but..... I'm willing to bet you have a fuel problem based on your symptoms.

I was never a fan of the DW pumps.... if you knew how they were manufactured and where they come from you wouldn't touch them either. They also over-advertise their abilities.... I'd dump that DW pump and instead replace it with OEM, then grab a surge tank + 044 combo. Guaranteed you won't have fuel issues after that... it's a proven solution. I'm willing to bet you are at the limit of the pump's abilities..... and maybe even the pump isn't pumping like it should, or as advertised. Ditch that POS.

questions:
what was your fuel setup before the DW, and did you have the same issues?
also, does it stall right when you shift - or does it stall while in throttle?
what's your vacuum at idle? on decel?


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## BrewDude (Nov 3, 2000)

I run a DW pump on my FT450 setup and have had no issues. Don't know why you're calling them a POS but mine has worked flawlessly and is a hell of a lot quieter than the the 044 pump I had installed in place of the OEM fuel filter. 

However, if by some chance I have fueling issues I still have the 044 along with an IE surge tank just in case. 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> stop focusing on gears- loss of power is not a gearing problem, nor is it gear dependant. You should be looking into spark, fuel & timing. Without logs, you are shooting in the dark, but..... I'm willing to bet you have a fuel problem based on your symptoms.
> 
> I was never a fan of the DW pumps.... if you knew how they were manufactured and where they come from you wouldn't touch them either. They also over-advertise their abilities.... I'd dump that DW pump and instead replace it with OEM, then grab a surge tank + 044 combo. Guaranteed you won't have fuel issues after that... it's a proven solution. I'm willing to bet you are at the limit of the pump's abilities..... and maybe even the pump isn't pumping like it should, or as advertised. Ditch that POS.
> 
> ...


Prior to the DW I ran the OEM pump but never went about 7psi nor did I ever take it on the track. I first installed the DTM kit sans intercooler and stock compression (as that's what the kit is). Once I heard that I had to run race fuel to run this set up I quickly started the upgrade process to get lower compression and intercooled. Since this was done I knew the stock trans could hold 400awhp safely so I sourced the pump as a means to keep fuel levels on part with the amount of air at 14psi. Since I believe the stock pump runs out of juice at 10ish? It did not have any issues previously, nor did this set up last year have any issues on the street. Again this past weekend was the first full weekend I was able to track the car.

It seemed to cut the power right after I got the clutch out when doing the 4->5 gear change. As fuel drained and it started to do it Sunday I feel like in 4th/3rd it did start to try and make power before it cut out.
Vacuum normally at idle is -14--15ish, and in gear under decel is -20--21.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

BrewDude said:


> Don't know why you're calling them a POS


I only comment on matters of which I have actual experience with. I've dealt with these DW pumps on 3 occasions. 1st time on a 1.8T- pump did not output (pump the gas) as advertised, it's flow rates were much lower in reality, which prompted a change to surge tank + 044 to provide enough fuel for the setup (voltage OK, wiring OK). 2nd time on a MK4 2.0 turbo - pump failed after 18,000 km's, no warranty support (voltage OK, wiring OK). 3rd time on a MK3 12v turbo- pump failed to deliver adequate pressure to support #12 of boost.... flow chart states that this level of boost should be more than possible.

044 + surge? never once heard of an issue. that's all I'm saying. yeah, it's louder- grab some dynamat for $50 and that solves that problem, if you're bothered by it. Personally I like to hear it when on the track, it's reassuring to know / hear that thing whizzing around back there. 044 + surge is a proven, robust, stable fuel solution. DW still needs to work out the kinks, in my humble opinion.

but- we should still remember- we don't 100% know if this is a fuel problem or not yet......



03Aku87 said:


> It seemed to cut the power right after I got the clutch out when doing the 4->5 gear change. As fuel drained and it started to do it Sunday I feel like in 4th/3rd it did start to try and make power before it cut out.
> Vacuum normally at idle is -14--15ish, and in gear under decel is -20--21.


vacuum is OK-

when the power cuts, during the 4>5 change - can you repeat this at will? every time you shift 4>5, does it stall or cut power?
does this happen in any other gear?
do you stall at stop lights?

If I were you, it's not too much work to swap the old pump back in. Swap it back- lower the boost, see if the problem persists. (i.e. narrow down the issue)


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## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> when the power cuts, during the 4>5 change - can you repeat this at will? every time you shift 4>5, does it stall or cut power?
> does this happen in any other gear?
> do you stall at stop lights?
> 
> If I were you, it's not too much work to swap the old pump back in. Swap it back- lower the boost, see if the problem persists. (i.e. narrow down the issue)


I've never had any power cut issues at all on the streets. No stalling at stop lights or anything of that nature.

When on the track at full gas tank levels I didn't have any problem. (Filled up Friday night and the first 2 track sessions on Sat had 0 issues). It seemed to only start to happen when it was below roughly between 2/3 and 1/2 tank.

At that level it would only cut out on the 4>5 shift.

After that (Sunday morning) when I started the session with a hair below half tank it did start to do it in 4th gear. This time I do feel like it started to try and make power / boost before it would cut out (not like before where it never made power after the gear change).

Finally on one turn it cut power coming out of the corner in 3rd gear and that's when it stalled out. (only time it has stalled out).


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Seems like a fuel pickup problem to me then. Swap to the OEM pump and see if the condition persists. 


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## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

What's the capacity of the OEM pump? I don't want to be shooting for 14psi and have the OEM pump not be sufficient and run lean. Plus I don't know when I'll be on the track again. Currently won't be until October as I'm in the processes of purchasing a home so money is tight.

If most people agree it's a pump pick up issue and OEM plus inline pump w/ surge is the way to combat that then I have no problem starting saving for this fuel system upgrade.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Well no, don't run 14psi, you'll obviously need to turn it down..... but pickup issues are not boost dependant- so it will show regardless of boost settings. 


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Ditch that Chinese pump and swap in a Walbro 485, rewire w/ external relay & wiring kit and be done with that. 

Also log. Trying to describe problems over the internet without any sort of data is nonsense... It's 2016 and you drive a turbocharged R32. Buy a VCDS cable and start data logging, pull codes, etc. There really is no excuse for not having data on a modified car.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

NOTORIOUS VR said:


> Ditch that Chinese pump and swap in a Walbro 485, rewire w/ external relay & wiring kit and be done with that.
> 
> Also log. Trying to describe problems over the internet without any sort of data is nonsense... It's 2016 and you drive a turbocharged R32. Buy a VCDS cable and start data logging, pull codes, etc. There really is no excuse for not having data on a modified car.


walbro better be in line, the in tank ones showed more issues with the pick up on cars close to 1/4 tank of gas during cornering, OEM works best to not starve of fuel, and thought DW figured out how not to starve as well. 

last thing you want is to be picking up air in the lines at high RPMS and high boost. you can run ridiculously lean and melt stuff in an instant. 

what FPR are you using? 3 or 4 bar?


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## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

huichox4 said:


> walbro better be in line, the in tank ones showed more issues with the pick up on cars close to 1/4 tank of gas during cornering, OEM works best to not starve of fuel, and thought DW figured out how not to starve as well.
> 
> last thing you want is to be picking up air in the lines at high RPMS and high boost. you can run ridiculously lean and melt stuff in an instant.
> 
> what FPR are you using? 3 or 4 bar?


4 bar from the HPA DTM Kit. (That's what my turbo kit started as)


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> walbro better be in line, the in tank ones showed more issues with the pick up on cars close to 1/4 tank of gas during cornering, OEM works best to not starve of fuel, and thought DW figured out how not to starve as well.
> 
> last thing you want is to be picking up air in the lines at high RPMS and high boost. you can run ridiculously lean and melt stuff in an instant.
> 
> what FPR are you using? 3 or 4 bar?


It's not the pump but the installation of the pump. Do it right and you won't have any issues.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

NOTORIOUS VR said:


> It's not the pump but the installation of the pump. Do it right and you won't have any issues.


Ohh interesting, I thought the in tank walbro pumps with the issues where the drop in option from them directly. This was discussed several years ago. Maybe there is something different design now or a custom modification to it? 

let everyone know whats the proper way to install them if you can.


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> Ohh interesting, I thought the in tank walbro pumps with the issues where the drop in option from them directly. This was discussed several years ago. Maybe there is something different design now or a custom modification to it?
> 
> let everyone know whats the proper way to install them if you can.


I'm talking in general.. Drop in or custom, the issue isn't the (any) pump but with the installation/mounting.

If you're not able to get the pumps pickup in the same position of at least the OEM setup then you're going to have issues. The OEM setup is contained in a quasi swirl pot (going by memory) so you will have to make sure you keep that pick up point the same as the OEM to prevent issue.

Without the swirl pot (for say big or multi-pump setups) you will have to come up with something else rather then OEM or do it properly and run an external surge tank system to avoid starvation.


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## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

Well I recently just took delivery of a Bosch 044 and a radium 1.5L surge. The tank isn't a submerged set-up which is fine but I'm now looking into how to set this up. Can anybody with expirence installing one of these point me in the correct direction for getting all the required fittings and such I'd need to adapt the stock lines to the tank. Also keep reading about needing to wire in a relay for the inline pump. I tried doing a general 'surge tank' search in the MK4 R forums and haven't been able to find anything specific. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/adapter-fittings/specialty-fuel-injected.shtml

I would replace the stock fuel lines with -6AN PTFE hose though.....

radium sells fuel pump harnesses with relay / fuse etc, also USRT sells them too. they are easy to install, just follow directions.


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## 03Aku87 (Nov 28, 2010)

Turns out the pump and the surge are both fitted with -8 an fittings.. So now I get to try and find the right quick release adapters to -8 or some bull**** rigged together -6 to -8 conversions... woo


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

03Aku87 said:


> Turns out the pump and the surge are both fitted with -8 an fittings.. So now I get to try and find the right quick release adapters to -8 or some bull**** rigged together -6 to -8 conversions... woo


can't you just change the fittings on the surge tank and pump? aren't they -AN ORB? just get -8 to -6 ORB adapters if you want to go with -6 line.


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