# VEMS vs TEC3 vs MS3



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

i'm looking at these 3 systems. anyone have any personal experence with them?


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## scott66 (Jul 5, 2003)

tyrone27 said:


> i'm looking at these 3 systems. anyone have any personal experence with them?


I have experience with two of them. However, what kind of functionality are you looking to get out of a standalone system? Without knowing what you want out of the system, answering your questions about those three systems would be difficult and spotty at best.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

going to be used for turbo application with water injection and boost control controlled by engine management system.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I've never messed with VEMS, the newer tech3rs are nice but pricey and you have to use their ignition system and a 60-2 trigger wheel. Bang for the buck NOTHING comes even close to MS3/3X
What car/engine are you planning on using this with.


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## Rheinland Technik (Apr 2, 2010)

If you are looking at VEMS, I can assume you are looking at Lugtronic. You can't beat a plug and play and given that Kevin Black [the stand alone tuning King], you have to know that he has tuned almost every system out there and that he wouldn't push it if he didn't trust it, hands down. I will be using a system on my Cabrio build and will not use anything else.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Rheinland Technik said:


> If you are looking at VEMS, I can assume you are looking at Lugtronic. You can't beat a plug and play and given that Kevin Black [the stand alone tuning King], you have to know that he has tuned almost every system out there and that he wouldn't push it if he didn't trust it, hands down. I will be using a system on my Cabrio build and will not use anything else.


I feel similarly about MS3 with the expander board. Massive flexibilty, massive numbers of I/O, self tuning with a registered copy of Tuner Studio. I've got well over 4000 miles on the Corrado and now it's being converted to a 20/20T ( the motor is in.... need to do wiring ,some coolant plumbing and exhaust) and will take advantage of LOTS of features.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I wouldn't run VEMS without getting it through Kevin.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

Derrick's back! lol what's up.

There are 10+ ecu's that I could use to meet your demands. Any one of them would make the same HP. Some of them have issues or will not drive quite as nice. The vems has the first or second best feature to dollar ratio out there, and more features than many ecu's costing twice as much. I've tuned a lot of TEC3's in my days, but that would be about my last choice for several reasons.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I wouldn't run VEMS without getting it through Kevin.


True Story...........

Lugtronic or Megasquirt From Paul
Forget the rest


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Salsa GTI said:


> True Story...........
> 
> Lugtronic or Megasquirt From Paul
> Forget the rest


Agreed and now that I'm up and running with the 20/20T fully sequential all I can say about the capabilities of the MS3/3X is WOW! I've got it doing fuel, spark, ISV, boost control with gear based table switching, VSS, cooling fans, A/C, tachometer, wideband O2 with closed loop feedback, and I'm playing with VVT. Looks like all I'll be able to do is a simple duty cycle table as the solenoid does not behave in a linear manner. I'm still looking for an inner fender mount charcoal canister (OBD2 Mk3) so I can run evap/canister purge and a water/meth injection system will be going on the car in the next few months.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

tyrone27 said:


> going to be used for turbo application with water injection and boost control controlled by engine management system.


VEMS :thumbup:
Get it from Kevin


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## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

VEMS is the ****


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

A2 16v Gli said:


> VEMS is the ****


IF you get it from Kevin.


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## Turbo3 (Sep 15, 2005)

Bring this back from the dead



need_a_VR6 said:


> I wouldn't run VEMS without getting it through Kevin.


Care to explain why? I keep seeing his name pop uo when talking about VEMS and Paul's with megasquirt. 

Reason I ask is, i'm building an ABA 16vT and I'm looking at both systems. Can someone tell me which one is better? Or the pro's and con's of both?

I know your gonna ask this, needs to have......boost control, w/i control(if possible), boost by gear, COP, anti-lag/launch control. It's gonna be a street/track car, looking for upper 300/lower 400 WHP.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Turbo3 said:


> Bring this back from the dead
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can tell you that MS3/3X can do all of this including progressive w/i with safeties to keep you from killing the motor if you run out of water meth or have a pump failure. W/I can be progressively controlled with either a fast valve or by PWM control of the pump itself ( I am using the second method). True boost by gear isn't possible but you can switch between 2 boost tables based on gear or speed. I use gear based boost table switch with 1 table for 1st and 2nd and the other for 3rd-5th. MS3/3X is also a little cheaper than a lugtronic set up.


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## 2ToneTurbo (Feb 15, 2007)

Turbo3 said:


> Bring this back from the dead
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Basicly paul is the man for megasquirt and kevin is the man for vems.. end of story.. boths guys are great to deal with and always helpful when needed


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

True.

MS3 does have VSS based boost target capability too, I've just never used it. Maybe on my Mk4..


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## Turbo3 (Sep 15, 2005)

Prof315 said:


> I can tell you that MS3/3X can do all of this including progressive w/i with safeties to keep you from killing the motor if you run out of water meth or have a pump failure. W/I can be progressively controlled with either a fast valve or by PWM control of the pump itself ( I am using the second method). True boost by gear isn't possible but you can switch between 2 boost tables based on gear or speed. I use gear based boost table switch with 1 table for 1st and 2nd and the other for 3rd-5th. MS3/3X is also a little cheaper than a lugtronic set up.


That good to know, thanks. 



2ToneTurbo said:


> Basicly paul is the man for megasquirt and kevin is the man for vems.. end of story.. boths guys are great to deal with and always helpful when needed


I've chatted with Paul on here before. Nice dude and real helpful


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## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

how's this speed based system work for us cable speedo a2 guys, one wheel speed sensor rear one front....detect wheel spin? guess in the 85 i could put a a3 sensor setup..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The cruise control clusters have a vss output. Also you could use abs wheel speed sensors but on ms3 you would be limited to one vr wheel speed input using the spare conditioner for the cam. You can add addl circuits or use vss for front and abs wheel for the rear though...


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

The easiest way would definately be to use a Mk3 020 VSS instead of the cable. The signal out of the cruise control clusters is very noisy. A simple 5V pull up is all that MS3 needs with a VW VSS, that way you don't need to use the MS3X cam in conditioners.


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