# 400 Hp without Nos or forced induction?



## Mastiff (Aug 1, 2006)

Hello and greetings all I have what might seem like a silly question but here it goes anyway. Is it feasible to get 400 H/P out of an R32 power plant without resorting to Nos or turbo / superchargers ? 
And if so has it been done? 
What would the build consist of ?
Lastly can anyone provide any info such as how to’s link / write ups ect…
BTW I did do a search and came up with a bunch of stuff but nothing covering building a decent N/A 3.2 engine.



_Modified by Mastiff at 7:04 AM 8-7-2006_


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## dl337j00 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: 400 Hp without Nos or forced induction? (Mastiff)*

might be possible to get 400bhp NA. would require very high compression, lots of headwork, high-lift cams, ect. it would all be custom, because no companies really make 24v cams that support that power (afaik). and if you want to do it with any amount of torque, it might require a stroker crank.
building an NA engine like that would probably require things like ITBs with velocity stacks, and really high octane to support the high compression.
it would be more realistic to aim for 300whp, if you intend on using your R32 for things other than drag racing only.


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## Mastiff (Aug 1, 2006)

Thanks for the reply I was beginning to wonder if anyone would read this.
Ok so maybe 400 H.P. is a little unrealistic on second thought. I just wanted to avoid the whole Turbo / super charger thing.
Just seems like a big PIA when it comes to emissions and what not.
Btw can you give me some ideas on where to look for buying cams and other goodies for the 3.2 ?


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## dl337j00 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (Mastiff)*

even 300whp NA may give you troubles at the sniffer.
im not sure what emissions are like in your neck of the woods, but if thats an issue, i would do a low-boost supercharger, a bit of headwork, and intake/exhaust.
i wouldnt expect any 11-second 1/4miles but it will be more fun to own/drive/maintain than a monster NA engine.
i love not having emission laws, my car is 400whp with no cats, and im going 600whp over the winter.


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (dl337j00)*

all motor allday. 300whp is very possible.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (subrosasix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *subrosasix* »_all motor allday. 300whp is very possible.

i wanna see this


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MINT GTI* »_
i wanna see this

i seen kseries motors put out 276whp with just some block work, cams, along with bolt on's. stock head! just by that I think the r32 can easily see 300whp with enough work. question is do i want to focus on my career now or try to pursue this ideas of innovation (sp). I think 300whp can be seen without even touching the block.


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## Mastiff (Aug 1, 2006)

I am interested in what you think is the right path to obtain the goal of 300 whp.
As I would not mind that at all if I didn't have to go the forced induction rout.


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Mastiff)*

The K series what a freakin engine! I want one really badly. Anyway yeah the parts for a 300whp N/A r32 are going to be hella expensive but a 2.8L 24v VR6 in a Corrado on ITB's is putting 272hp to the wheels. 
One thng that might be useful is to study the 3.2L VR6 block to find out how to make it as free flowing as possible. Find out how to uncork anything that might be restricting air flow in the whole engine. Figure out how much airflows on the stock head and(if you decide to go this route)port and polished head after that find or design the cams that fit the airflow perfectly. Once that's done find a standalone that will push the limits of the engine. Most of all find out what parts of the engine restrict the air flow the most and figure that out. It won't be easy but it will be worth it.
1. Get the Neuspeed AWD adjuster so you can make your R32 more rwd than the typical fwd. The should make it a bit more fun.
2. TT and Schrick make cams for the 3.2L VR6.
3. Standalone would be needed to take full advantage of the motor.
Good luck. We're all counting on you.


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6DPLMT.* »_but a 2.8L 24v VR6 in a Corrado on ITB's is putting 272hp to the wheels. 


that motor had block work, 3.1 high compression

_Quote, originally posted by *VR6DPLMT.* »_
One thng that might be useful is to study the 3.2L VR6 block to find out how to make it as free flowing as possible. Find out how to uncork anything that might be restricting air flow in the whole engine. Figure out how much airflows on the stock head and(if you decide to go this route)port and polished head after that find or design the cams that fit the airflow perfectly. Once that's done find a standalone that will push the limits of the engine. Most of all find out what parts of the engine restrict the air flow the most and figure that out. It won't be easy but it will be worth it.
1. Get the Neuspeed AWD adjuster so you can make your R32 more rwd than the typical fwd. The should make it a bit more fun.
2. TT and Schrick make cams for the 3.2L VR6.
3. Standalone would be needed to take full advantage of the motor.
Good luck. We're all counting on you.

u dont need awd to make the car faster imo it's fine with FWD. There are people with r32's with simple bolt on's making 250whp on eip chips. I think with 285whp and up is good enough for a real good clean low 11 sec pass providing the car is light 1950-2200 lbs. the k series is nice but honestly the only thing that makes this motor "great" is the tranny, the tranny is much better gear'ed then even a b16 tranny which is pretty short.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (Mastiff)*

This is a prety good start to getting 300 whp NA, although I'm running a mild schrick 268 cam for road use and mines a little over 300bhp at the crank. 3.2 Audi TT block head work, Grant Motorsport ITB conversion DTA management, 6 branch manifold 2.5" system with de-cat pipe.



















_Modified by Vento_Gareth at 2:11 PM 10-17-2006_


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## Jeramiah (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_This is a prety good start to getting 300 whp NA, although I'm running a mild schrick 268 cam for road use and mines a little over 300bhp at the crank. 3.2 Audi TT block head work, Grant Motorsport ITB conversion DTA management, 6 branch manifold 2.5" system with de-cat pipe.


















YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!! nice work. I've got the Audi 3.2L in my 92 GTI. I weigh 2560 lbs with a 5spd 02A in it. The car is riduclous as it sits in stock form. I can't imagine it with 300hp or so.


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## '95 Corrado (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: (Jeramiah)*

what engine managment are you running on your '92 GTi
Im thinking about 3.2l swap on my Corrado VR6
was thinking to go standalone so I can keep my instrument cluster
& not deal with immobilizer
its a bit off topic but would appreciate your help


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## Jeramiah (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: ('95 Corrado)*

I'm running the Audi management but will soon be pulling it out in favor of R32 software and cluster. The reason for the switch is the lack of the dsg tranny. I cannot get around the required imput signals the ecu needs to see from the dsg. Right now I have a 5200 rpm fuel cut off.


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## '95 Corrado (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: (Jeramiah)*

does 02A tranny bolt to 3.2L or is it different and also engine mounts
how hard is is to come by 3.2l and how much do they go for
I was originally thinking about turbocharging my 2.8
but right now Im thinking maybe its better to do 3.2l swap
(less headache) because its gonna be my daily driver
what are your thoughts


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## AKsyncrado (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: ('95 Corrado)*

i'm having a similar problem with my r32 cabrio. the car goes into limp mode even with the r32 harness and cluster. the ecu is still looking for a bunch of stuff not in the car. what codes are you getting? hit me up on im


_Modified by AKsyncrado at 2:06 PM 9-12-2006_


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## Jeramiah (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: ('95 Corrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *’95 Corrado* »_does 02A tranny bolt to 3.2L or is it different and also engine mounts
how hard is is to come by 3.2l and how much do they go for
I was originally thinking about turbocharging my 2.8
but right now Im thinking maybe its better to do 3.2l swap
(less headache) because its gonna be my daily driver
what are your thoughts

Yes the 02A bolts to it no problem. Costdepends on your suppplier. Finding a 3.2L in Canada is like a needle in a haystack. Not many, if any! are getting crashed. Mine was close to 10K. A turbo 2.8 will require more TLC than a 3.2 for sure. I can beat on mine all day long without worry. I persoally like NA power over anything SC or TC'd.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Jeramiah)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jeramiah* »_Yes the 02A bolts to it no problem. Costdepends on your suppplier. Finding a 3.2L in Canada is like a needle in a haystack. Not many, if any! are getting crashed. Mine was close to 10K. A turbo 2.8 will require more TLC than a 3.2 for sure. I can beat on mine all day long without worry. I persoally like NA power over anything SC or TC'd.


how can you say that when you cant even rev out the car? vr6's of any sort like to rev... 24v's esspecialy... i had my mk3 with the NA 24v 2.8 and it was not very exciting and i had mine running good. i had tec2 on it... made 195 at the wheels.. i liked my mk2 12v vr better.
and you clearly have no first hand experiance with serious boost. otherwise you wont make the comment you did. 
the setup i came from
2.8 12v making 165whp (stock) plus the spray 100shot direct port was 273whp.








NA 2.8 24v making 195 whp








Current 460 whp 24vT


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## Jeramiah (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

I'm sure that 24VT is a great daily driver http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Your right I have no 1st hand experience with boosted cars and I don't want to. For day in day out driving I would take a NA car any day. Ya I can only rev mine out to 5200 rpm right now but you know what I can still do burnouts rolling from 3rd gear,at the moment it's enough fun for me. I have had no problems other than ones I make for myself ( ie: crakcing an oil pan )


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

I'll second that mate N/A power for me to. I'm on ITB's on my 3.2 and it runs over 300bhp and pushes the limit of my fwd setup.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Jeramiah)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jeramiah* »_I'm sure that 24VT is a great daily driver http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

when i finished it it was my only car for about 8 months and it never left me stranded. so.. i guess its very reliable. the only reason i got a second car is because i was raking up alot of mileage. my one way trip to work is 62 km. i was puting 200 km on the car daily. SO RELIABLITY WAS NOT AN ISSUE. i probably get 450km to a tank.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_This is a prety good start to getting 300 whp NA, although I'm running a mild schrick 268 cam for road use and mines a little over 300bhp at the crank. 3.2 Audi TT block head work, Grant Motorsport ITB conversion DTA management, 6 branch manifold 2.5" system with de-cat pipe.


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_I'll second that mate N/A power for me to. I'm on ITB's on my 3.2 and it runs over 300bhp and pushes the limit of my fwd setup.

I hate to be a jerk. But UK numbers sometimes sound very inflated.. 
Id like to see a dyno sheet of 300 HP ( your car obviously) 
im off to work now.. but ill back my statement of "inflated" numbers later on tonight.
dont get me wrong btw. i love the car.


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

Hey Mint GTI. Saw your car at H2O. Completely sick man. Wish I could get a ride in it to see what it feels like.







hehe. Any ways. Nice car. i'll have a 24v pretty soon here. Dunno if it'll be a 2.8 or 3.2l yet.


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (CDJetta)*

werd boost is WAY MORE FUN and i tell u this anything with 24v will continue to put numbers down weather it's na or turbo.


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## herbehop (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (Jeramiah)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jeramiah* »_I'm sure that 24VT is a great daily driver http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Your right I have no 1st hand experience with boosted cars and I don't want to. For day in day out driving I would take a NA car any day. Ya I can only rev mine out to 5200 rpm right now but you know what I can still do burnouts rolling from 3rd gear,at the moment it's enough fun for me. I have had no problems other than ones I make for myself ( ie: crakcing an oil pan ) 

I drive over 60 miles per day on my VR6 boosting 20psi. Reliability is not an issue as long as: 
1) The build is solid
2) The tune is good. 
For tune I'm running Jeff Atwood's software on my stock ecu.


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## [email protected] (Dec 3, 2006)

*Re: (subrosasix)*

I am new to this form so just a comment or two on this subject. I have been working with the 2 and 4 valve heads for a few years now. The 2 valve heads have VERY little materal thickness which would allow one to "adjust" the ports shape. The un-even runner length presents another problem but we were able to change the basic shape and bring the different length runners CFM and velocity numbers closer together. This is a low CFM and slow velocity port cylinder head. They can be improved but there are basic design limitations. The pictures of the individual throtle bodies looks like one excellent solution. 
[email protected]


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## fvdub00 (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: 400 Hp without Nos or forced induction? (Mastiff)*

to solve your ? ask 95glx Anthony Dowd. I think he's putting down 269 awhp. That's with no headwork (port & polish) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Frank


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

Poxy Dyno plots, inflated numbers from the UK don't make me laugh







Talk about a pot calling a kettle black! Why should I need to prove myself with a plot when the cars sprint times in PVW hall of fame speak for themselves.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_Poxy Dyno plots, inflated numbers from the UK don't make me laugh







Talk about a pot calling a kettle black! Why should I need to prove myself with a plot when the cars sprint times in PVW hall of fame speak for themselves.


actually i call it the HALL OF SHAME.
here's why.








also. mph shows power. in pvw you were claiming 250 bhp. im assuming thats actual power at the wheels.








now. "if" your car traps 103mph in the quarter mile, in thoery you should run roughly the same times as i did since i was also traping around the same mph (103-106). i also realize it was in the wet and all.. but mph is mph and there isnt any way around that.
to top it all off. i ran 12.90 at 106. on radials, not slicks. but the car only made 191 whp ( dyno proven ). so with 60 more hp you ran the same mph as me? doesnt make sense does it? to make things worse, it made 191 on the NOS. on the motor it made 167 whp. on the track it ran a 13.88 @ 96mph without the nos.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

btw if you are a bit confused..
i had 2 different NOS setups in my car.
a fogger setup pictured above(never ran it on the track) and a single jet system(which ran a 12.90 as stated above). the fogger system being far more aggresive.
for good measure..
a little vid of my current setup on the track... running "bad" times because of traction issues... i ran an 11.6 in the vid but ran a 11.1 the same day. never cought on video tho








http://www.vwot.org/community/...7.wmv


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

LMAO, hall of shame hahaha


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

Your looking at the wrong PVW shootout mate! Your showing the results from my 2.8 24v run not the 3.2 which was in the Mk2 madness issue two months ago. I ran 5.4 0-60, 0-100 in 12.0 and a terminal speed of 111mph in drizzling rain on 97 Octain fuel and concrete surface. Granted the quarter mile times were poor (13.7 sec)as my wet weather tyres were f**ked and my clutch was slipping by the time the timing gear was set to record Qtr mile times.
As for Hall of Shame, I'd say bring your cars over lads and proove your times on the PVW timing gear on the brintingthorpe crappy surface using 97 Octaine fuel.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_.
As for Hall of Shame, I'd say bring your cars over lads and proove your times on the PVW timing gear on the brintingthorpe crappy surface using 97 Octaine fuel.


why dont u do it agian but on a dry surface and with sticker tires.








yo vento_gareth whats your email? my boy has been PM'ing you but I guess you dont get them.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_Your looking at the wrong PVW shootout mate! Your showing the results from my 2.8 24v run not the 3.2 which was in the Mk2 madness issue two months ago. I ran 5.4 0-60, 0-100 in 12.0 and a terminal speed of 111mph in drizzling rain on 97 Octain fuel and concrete surface. Granted the quarter mile times were poor (13.7 sec)as my wet weather tyres were f**ked and my clutch was slipping by the time the timing gear was set to record Qtr mile times.
As for Hall of Shame, I'd say bring your cars over lads and proove your times on the PVW timing gear on the brintingthorpe crappy surface using 97 Octaine fuel.


First of all. I wish i had 97 at the pump. highest we get is 94 in canada. states get 93 as their highest if im not mistaken. So please dont complain about your gas. my stock clutch setup gave up on me around the 420Whp mark.
Im not quite sure you understand what im trying to tell you. so ill try to simplify.
"IF" both of us are running roughly the same MPH in a quarter mile,
it means we are making the SAME power at the wheels. but you are saying you made 60hp more then me, yet we run the same mph. It simply doesnt add up.
Ive been hearing complaining about the facility you guys are using for years... and the weather.. who races in the rain? Honestly, i know there are drag strips in the uk. ive seen them in the magazines. the first ever issue on PVW( i own it) feature the GTI Festival an VW event at a drag facility.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

MORE uk inflation.
check out the mods and the expected vs actual results.

*EDIT : even at 25% drivetrain loss none of these make any sense.* 
Im just wondering why you guys care about how much power it makes at the flywheel. its useless. 


































_Modified by MINT GTI at 11:55 PM 1-8-2007_


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

u know what it is mint, many many europeans measure power in break horsepower. which is actually the same as to the crank. us americans measure power at the wheels which takes into compensation the drivetrainloss.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

If these chaps actual read my first post you will see I stated mine was a little over 300bhp at the crank not at the wheels! Mine is 250whp +/-5 depending on which dyno is used. I started the post in saying mine was a STARTING point to achieve 300whp. For me to get 300whp I'd need to run a crazy race cam set-up, forged pistons taking it to 3.3L and further head work. This level of tune just isn't practical for road use and would be seriously expensive.
As for the sprint times at Bruntingthorpe I run Hankook wet tyres used in the VW Cup which are very soft and start to melt after about 4 laps on a dry track. My terminal speed of between 108mph and 111mph are prety consistant on all surfaces including Santa Pod Raceway dragstrip with a fully glued surface. My qtr mile times improve slightly but I always struggle with the launch (0-60ft time) due to the size and weight of the car.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

so. you make roughly 250 whp currently? and what kind of times are you running on the strip?


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

13.7 Qtr on a prepared surface on a drag strip but that was on road tyres so with my new sticky tyres a 13.5 would be about right at 111mph terminal.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

what was the 60ft time? you trap speed tells me your in the mid-high 12's EASY with some more tracttion!


_Modified by fourthchirpin at 11:49 AM 1-9-2007_


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

That's the problem 0-60 is very poor at 2.2 when the lighter cars and 4wd cars are running 1.9's. It's hard getting a heavy fwd car off the line even with sticky tyres but once it's going mid range and top end is awsome.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_13.7 Qtr on a prepared surface on a drag strip but that was on road tyres so with my new sticky tyres a 13.5 would be about right at 111mph terminal.

what MPH did you trap on the 13.7 pass?


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_That's the problem 0-60 is very poor at 2.2 when the lighter cars and 4wd cars are running 1.9's. It's hard getting a heavy fwd car off the line even with sticky tyres but once it's going mid range and top end is awsome.

thing is... sometimes you dont want too much hook. at least in my experiance. i ran [email protected] on regular old winter tires in my mk2. motor was completely stock. other than the cone filter. even ran mk3 vr muffler. then i did some small mods, nothing major. and i ran 13.8's-9's @ 94mph. small mods? plug gapping, tires(bfg radials), and a gutted manifold. bit more traction and i lost 5-6 mph. 
all my cars are pigs aswell. my mk2 was 2850 with me.
my mk3 is 2940 with me.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

On the 13.7 run Santa Pod it was consistant 107-108mph and the 13.7 run at Bruntingthorpe with the poor surface and sticky tyres was 111mph. The tyres do make a big difference and I have yet to try them at Santa Pod. The weather has turned real bad over the last few weeks/months (winter rain and wind) and it's difficult to plan a run what you brung day. There is loads more set-up I could try to improve the times by jacking up the rear lowering the front, changing the rear wheels, playing with tyre pressures but the main area is practice as I only sprint the car 2 or 3 times a year.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

my r32 swap dynoed 266 wheel with schrick 268/264 cams and ran a 12.0 at 112 in the 1/4 mile. other then the cams, i have a cold air intake and 3" exhaust using a stock header. O2A trans and 3.94 gearing. i never ran the car on steet tires. i am sure vento garths car is set up to run on a track with left and right turns and not a drag strip. it makes a huge difference with the power we are making. im trying to get to the 280 wheel hp mark soon


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

I just don't see how you can get 266hp at the wheels from a 3.2 with just cams exhaust and a filter, it's just not possible in the UK to get those figures. My friend has a 3.2 and he did Schrick 268/264 cams, full Miltek exhaust including the hi-flow CAT's and a re-map and was only putting down 270hp at the fly wheel, not at the wheels. Look at my set-up, I'm putting down less power than you and mines on the same cams, I have head work done, full Jenvey ITB setup, I'm on a custom 6 branch tubular manifold and custom exhaust, no CAT, and on management. The figures and performance sprint times vary a country mile between US and UK cars


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

interesting......


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_I just don't see how you can get 266hp at the wheels from a 3.2 with just cams exhaust and a filter, it's just not possible in the UK to get those figures. My friend has a 3.2 and he did Schrick 268/264 cams, full Miltek exhaust including the hi-flow CAT's and a re-map and was only putting down 270hp at the fly wheel, not at the wheels. Look at my set-up, I'm putting down less power than you and mines on the same cams, I have head work done, full Jenvey ITB setup, I'm on a custom 6 branch tubular manifold and custom exhaust, no CAT, and on management. The figures and performance sprint times vary a country mile between US and UK cars









well then i guess you are doing something wrong. even the hp to 1/4 mile calculators are accurate to my dyno numbers. this was on a dynojet. i dynoed 227 wheel on a mustang dyno on a 110 degree day, and that was my street tune. does that make you feel better? sorry i have a 75mm edelbrock throttle body (same size as stock) i forgot to mention that mod.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

What does the standard engine put down at the wheels, about 195-200hp (240bhp at the flywheel) or something like that? Are you telling me a cam change, exhaust, filter is giving you an extra 65-70hp at the wheels don't make me laugh








Schrick cams give 15-20bhp at the flywheel, induction kit makes little or no difference to the power and an exhaust system even with hi-flow CAT's will only give a further 15-20bhp at the flywheel. Your looking at about 20-25whp gains with those mods.
And who was it that said UK numbers were exaggerated


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_What does the standard engine put down at the wheels, about 195-200hp (240bhp at the flywheel) or something like that? Are you telling me a cam change, exhaust, filter is giving you an extra 65-70hp at the wheels don't make me laugh








Schrick cams give 15-20bhp at the flywheel, induction kit makes little or no difference to the power and an exhaust system even with hi-flow CAT's will only give a further 15-20bhp at the flywheel. Your looking at about 20-25whp gains with those mods.
And who was it that said UK numbers were exaggerated










so then i guess anthony dowds 255 AWD wheel hp numbers are false too. he has the same cams i have, intake and exhaust and chip. i have seen stock r32s break mid 23X wheel hp thru the front wheels. do some research on vortex there are a few articles on it. maybe your tuner or engine mangment is not up to par







i always run 93 gas, and i actually saw no gains with unleaded race gas yet, but i am not done testing with it. i also LOST power with certain exhausts. i have done a lot to my car to get it where it is, and i have done all the work pretty much by myself. maybe grant tuned your car safely where as mine is tuned very aggresivly. i am running motec m600 software so maybe thats the difference right there. i know all it controlls is fuel spark and cam timing but it might do it better. what is your cam timing set at??? i played around with that for a while


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

Either your stock R32 engines are putting down more power than ours or the dyno's you use are giving higher numbers. If stock R32's were putting down mid 230's whp over here everyone would be buying them. They are all running 240-250bhp at the flywheel from the factory which is around the 200whp mark. Something doesn't add up, perhaps the stock engines are different in the US but I doubt it.
I've been tuning the ITB set-up with GMS and the leading DTA mapper in the UK, Steve Greenald for the past 5 years, we have tried loads of set-up with the cam timing and map. There is nothing GMS don't know about the 24v engine as they build 50% of the engines for the VW Cup Race cars.
This debate could run and run, I will agree to dissagree and leave it at that.


_Modified by Vento_Gareth at 5:16 PM 1-16-2007_


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_Either your stock R32 engines are putting down more power than ours or the dyno's you use are giving higher numbers. If stock R32's were putting down mid 230's whp over here everyone would be buying them. They are all running 240-250bhp at the flywheel from the factory which is around the 200whp mark. Something doesn't add up, perhaps the stock engines are different in the US but I doubt it.
I've been tuning the ITB set-up with GMS and the leading DTA mapper in the UK, Steve Greenald for the past 5 years, we have tried loads of set-up with the cam timing and map. There is nothing GMS don't know about the 24v engine as they build 50% of the engines for the VW Cup Race cars.
This debate could run and run, I will agree to dissagree and leave it at that.

_Modified by Vento_Gareth at 5:16 PM 1-16-2007_

you are right when something doesnt add up and the debate could go on and on forever. maybe its the style of dyno, weather etc. etc. there are so many factors. are your numbers corrected or no? mine are. make a big difference. you porbably know that but we never brought it up. what exactly are you doing with your cam timing if you dont mind me asking. when is the exhaust / intake cam turning on and off. i have been running my exhaust cam off and have been seeing better results. far batter actually.


----------



## peat_yt mk2 (Oct 20, 2005)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

This is my mk2 R32 
standered engine ,with 6 branch, 2.5 non cat exsulst ,running STORM DEVELOPMENTS stand alone engine managment !
put down a 270.6bhp fly (275corrected) and 235.3ft lbs ( 319.0nm)
at powerstation
after this day relised that i had 2 injectors running at less than 50% so hoping for a bit more next time !
sorry but no 1/4mile times yet the first one of the year over here will be at the start of april at GTI sprig fez
















more info and pics at http://www.stormdevelopments.co.uk
pete


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

I've seen your car at a few shows very nice. The power figures are very similar to PhatVR6's 4Motion with the R32 conversion, he was running Schrick cams but had the CAT's fitted. Look at it this way mate, take your car over to the US and you will be pushing over 300bhp on some of their dyno's. Just messing with you Vortex locals -again!


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

ventogarth, every time i ask you how your cam timing is set up you seem to ignore me. any reason for that?


----------



## peat_yt mk2 (Oct 20, 2005)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

cheers mate







checked out ur vento at inters i think it was but at the time i had a 20vt planned so did not make a point of looking around as much as i would now ! 
must sould amazing!!!!!!!!!!!
think its a long way to go just to get proved right







as fun as it would be !
are u going to be at GTI spring fez? we need to get a bit of a R32 showdown going mine NA, your NA/TB ,jacob bailys DSG, Storms SC Rotrex, and that white jbs vortex, 
sure there will be a few others by then tho !








pete


----------



## phatvr6 (Nov 13, 2001)

Who so much arguing? figures are figures, why debate about them so much? no one is making any wild claims here so what's the problem?
I've had an R32 engined corrado. no idea what power it put out, never dynoed it. put that engine in my mk4 v6 4 motion, along with schrick cams, AmD chip and stock 4 motion exhaust, save for milltek cats (one of which was damaged) and it put out 265bhp but peaked at about 5800 and wouldn't pull any higher. Vince at Stealth said it was knocking like hell and reckoned the reason was the aggresive AmD map. he said the only way their claimed 300bhp kits put out that for of power is with octane boosters and they can't be achieved with anything avaliable at the pump.
I've now got a stock BFH lump in the mk4, doesn't have quite the kick the shricked motor has, but it's adequate. going for an APR remap and dyno in a few weeks so I'll put up the graph. 
I've been both a passenger and driver in gareth's vento, and I can tell you now, it pulls HARD, the way the power picks up in the higher rpms is insane, you can feel the gains from the ITB's. never seen a power plot from it, and I don't really care what it's putting out, but it's certainly got some poke, and that's reflected in the 1/4 mile terminal speeds, well over 105mph. Times will come down when he gets some proper tyres and a better technique.
In ten years of tuning and racing I've never mangaged to break the 100mph barrier yet in the 1/4. despite running a 13.74 and a 2.034 60ft.
looking forward to smashing both those personal best when I get this audi lump runnning in the corrado. would love to join in at GTI fest, but I don't think it'll be done by then.


_Modified by phatvr6 at 6:14 PM 1-17-2007_


----------



## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_ventogarth, every time i ask you how your cam timing is set up you seem to ignore me. any reason for that? 

haha...
i still dont get it tho... why do you guys care what it makes at the flywheel?
do you race on it? who cares what it makes at the flywheel its useless to know unless you have like 50% DRIVETRAIN LOSS.


----------



## peat_yt mk2 (Oct 20, 2005)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

well its good to know fly figures wen it comes to engines that use diffrent gearboxs due to fwd applications ! 
if all the info found on R32 TUNING was in whp on mk4's then it would make it that bit more difficult comparing it to mine !
wen ur talking about tuning "a engine " why bring trans loss in to it !


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_ventogarth, every time i ask you how your cam timing is set up you seem to ignore me. any reason for that? 

VVT on the R32 is a waist of time as it's only for improved emissions (not just me saying that, that's from Allan Warburton the boss of DTA management). You just need to lock the mech in one set position to get good results. It's the same with the 2.8 controller it's electronically driven so you just send a signal to the unit to lock it on or off. I don't need to know how it runs as I dont build engines, I leave that to Grantley Woodhatch at GMS who I consider to be the UK expert at tuning VAG engines.


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (peat_yt mk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peat_yt mk2* »_are u going to be at GTI spring fez? we need to get a bit of a R32 showdown going mine NA, your NA/TB ,jacob bailys DSG, Storms SC Rotrex, and that white jbs vortex, 
sure there will be a few others by then tho !








pete

Yes I'll be at the Pod for Spring Fest but I'm in two minds when to get the paintwork done on the car. I want to race but it leaves little time to get the bodywork mods done for GTI International. I want to show the car off as well as race, it's a fine balance. Last years GTI Festival was tough when I ran the 13.7 at 108mph it was into a strong headwind and drizzling with rain so I want another crack on a good prepared surface. I've got some sticky tyres this year which should be easier to get some heat in to try and practice the launch, my 0-60ft times sucked at GTI Festival. I got pulled from the track for speeding (100+) without a crash helmet, so I only got about 4 runs in.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Must be another US/UK thing. 
My stock blocked 2650lb Mk3 12v traps over 100mph running down at [email protected] and has run 1/8th times to put it deep into 13.7s. Drag calc puts my car at ~200 flywheel hp. Not bad for a stock block, stock head, stock trans 12v with mild cams. I know this car will put down about 175whp which is inline with about 15% drivetrain loss. 
I've raced with Chris a long time, and I don't believe he's BSing. I was there the day his car went 12.00 and believe that the power he's made on the dyno is accurate. Drag calc puts his flywheel up around 270ish. What you guys might not understand is that he was spinning 1-2 on a little 23" slick. Toss some 24's on there and watch out. 
I think if you guys had better tracks and stopped talking about uncorrected 'flywheel' horsepower numbers all the time we'd be comparing apples to apples. 
PS: Gareth, might want to try a stock R32 exhaust manifold with a custom downpipe. The 12v's never liked headers.. 


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 8:23 AM 1-18-2007_


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

I'm not running 12v headers I'm running 24v headers with a custom 6 branch tubular manafold developed for the VW Cup RSi Beetles, it's a hell of a lot better than a stock R32 set-up.
We use flywheel figures as everyone runs different gearbox and drive trains. We can at least compair accurate engine performances between 4wd and 2wd cars.
You say apples and apples but there is no way a stock Mk3 12v is putting down 13's with 200 flywheel hp on any UK drag strip. To my knowledge PhatVR6 was running a tuned VR6 in a completely stripped Mk2 with no dashboard and recorded the fastest UK 12v N/A time at 13.75 sec. Standard Mk3 12v with 200hp would run high 14's over hear no better. It's not driver ability or track condition either!


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_I'm not running 12v headers I'm running 24v headers with a custom 6 branch tubular manafold developed for the VW Cup RSi Beetles, it's a hell of a lot better than a stock R32 set-up.
We use flywheel figures as everyone runs different gearbox and drive trains. We can at least compair accurate engine performances between 4wd and 2wd cars.
You say apples and apples but there is no way a stock Mk3 12v is putting down 13's with 200 flywheel hp on any UK drag strip. To my knowledge PhatVR6 was running a tuned VR6 in a completely stripped Mk2 with no dashboard and recorded the fastest UK 12v N/A time at 13.75 sec. Standard Mk3 12v with 200hp would run high 14's over hear no better. It's not driver ability or track condition either!

here we go. next time you are over in the states i will strap my car on the dyno for you







. as for locking the cams i agree with you but i do not have that done to mine as of right now. all grant did was degree them in much like EZhoeracing did. 
BTW my old mk2 vr6 all motor car went 13.0 at 101 with only 185 wheel. something must be up over there. phat vr6 should be running close to that time. i can link you to a few videos if you dont belive us


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

vento just get a clean pass with ur car on better tires on a more clear day. and that will unlock some of the misconceptions. r32's dyno ~207 on awd dyno's, iam sure if that car was fwd it would unlock more wheel power. Which is wat many r32 swaps are doing. This is why bhp is irrelevant to racers. id' ditch the 6 branch header and port stock r32 headers and get a custom down pipe made with a 3" merge. But thats me ill try when i finish mine.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_I'm not running 12v headers I'm running 24v headers with a custom 6 branch tubular manafold developed for the VW Cup RSi Beetles, it's a hell of a lot better than a stock R32 set-up.

You SURE it's better? I thought a headers would be better then ported stockers on a 12v and they weren't.

_Quote »_
We use flywheel figures as everyone runs different gearbox and drive trains. We can at least compair accurate engine performances between 4wd and 2wd cars.


We all use wheel figures because that's what really matters. Because there arent' many AWD dynos most of the R guys run FWD anyway. Trannies don't make a huge difference either (few %) and they're probably within the errr of different dynos anyway.

_Quote »_You say apples and apples but there is no way a stock Mk3 12v is putting down 13's with 200 flywheel hp on any UK drag strip. To my knowledge PhatVR6 was running a tuned VR6 in a completely stripped Mk2 with no dashboard and recorded the fastest UK 12v N/A time at 13.75 sec. Standard Mk3 12v with 200hp would run high 14's over hear no better. It's not driver ability or track condition either!

Maybe your 1/4mi is longer. What's a typical 60' time, I can cut 2.0X on a normal 205/50 street radial no problem and have cut into the 1.74's on a small 22x8 slick. I'll put down a 13.75 easily in my car as it sits early season with the good weather. I might even put in the stock cams and do it, just to do it. 
Anyone want to fly one of us out to drive a bit over there and compare?


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

I think someone is going to have to come over to drive in the UK on there next holiday and see for themselves. Perhaps the strip is slightly longer in the UK but seeing Santa Pod is on the European FIA top fuel tour I doubt it!
A good 0-60ft time fwd is 2.0sec anything less than that is seriously quick on our drag strips. I don't think I've seen a fwd VAG car run less than 1.9 0-60ft, perhaps someone in the UK can correct me? I know Paul Bargate's 2l 16v ITB Scirocco can hit 1.9's 0-60ft and he's doing 12.8 Qtr's N/A. His is the fastest N/A motor that I know of in the VW scene in the UK.


----------



## Gary20v (May 16, 2001)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Hi, US 1/4 times seem much quicker than times we can achieve in the UK, technique, conditions I dont know?
I ran a best of 13.4 @114 last year at Avon Park
vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RaHT95E3kE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...earch=
Power was 320bhp @fly about 260 whp I'm guessing, on very crap tyres. Terminal speeds are there but the ET isn't?


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

That compares almost identical to mine with 255whp I ran 13.7 at 111mph.


----------



## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

hi guys... uk feller here.
i remember people scoffing when i said my brothers 20v had run a low 14 and a high 13 second quarter (300 bhp, no traction off line).
now, speaking to guys out there, there is something different going on.
i see guys quoting 12 second quarters for lightly modified r32s, 14 seconds for standard vr's... i dont KNOW whats going on, but somethings different.
an r32 runs a 14 second quarter standard, according to vw.
to get TWO SECONDS off that, would be a feat and a half, especially without talking nos or forced induction.
speaking to a couple of tuning guys in america when i was at h20 2005 only excaberated this issue, guys saying that mk4 gtis are making 200bhp AT THE WHEELS with just a chip.
our chips / remaps are hitting us 200bhp, or thereabouts, at the crank.
either our cars are slow, because our tuning methods are rubbish, or you guys are being skanked.
now, the viper is supposed to be an awesome car, with stupid power, really fast - but it was tested by jeremy clarkson, and every euro car on the mile strip pulled away from it - even the 2.0 16v caterham... it makes me FEEL like you guys are being lied to, or your quoting methods are completely different to ours.
can you find an american source to how much power a horse makes?
here in europe, we have two figures (one by a uk guy - hp, another by a german guy - ps)
something, is REALLY screwy.


----------



## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

page three... just cause i can.


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## djsimmy (Jan 19, 2007)

nail on the head steve


----------



## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (djsimmy)*

I will second that Steve, I think the power figures are an issue on US dyno output figures but the qtr mile times make no sence to me unless the track is shorter







Like you say our figures compare to the German factory figures more or less so how can seconds be coming off the qtr times on standard US cars?


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## Mickey Marrows (Sep 24, 2001)

All dynos vary. In the US the method for measuring HP is much more uniform than it is in the UK, I think its because they use dynos at lot lot more than we do. Same goes for the 1/4 mile, its in the blood, they do it far more and generally are much better at it than we are. Lets face it, we only have one really decent strip in the whole of the UK, and that is considered to be the best in europe! doesn't say much does it.
From a professional point of view, with experience from running small block ford V8's, engine dyno power figures vary very little between europe and the US. The variance comes when you move to chassis dynos.
What we need over here is some US FWD drag racing guys to come and help us set up our cars properly.


----------



## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

well said mickey 
my mk1 does the 1/4 mile in 9 seconds can you smell it its the smell of something pig like flying past 
id be happy with 15 seconds


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## Mickey Marrows (Sep 24, 2001)

this makes interesting reading.
Don't think we have DynoJets over here..
http://www.truehp.com/magazine....html


----------



## Ben Chandler (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (Mickey Marrows)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mickey Marrows* »_All dynos vary. In the US the method for measuring HP is much more uniform than it is in the UK, I think its because they use dynos at lot lot more than we do. Same goes for the 1/4 mile, its in the blood, they do it far more and generally are much better at it than we are. Lets face it, we only have one really decent strip in the whole of the UK, and that is considered to be the best in europe! doesn't say much does it.
From a professional point of view, with experience from running small block ford V8's, engine dyno power figures vary very little between europe and the US. The variance comes when you move to chassis dynos.
What we need over here is some US FWD drag racing guys to come and help us set up our cars properly.









I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but when measuring power at the wheels things like tyre pressure, roller slip, running the car up in the wrong gear etc can create inaccurate readings. Hub dynos (like the Dynapack) are considered to be the best by many tuners if you want to gain accurate figures at the wheels.


_Modified by Ben Chandler at 5:13 AM 1-19-2007_


----------



## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (Mickey Marrows)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mickey Marrows* »_From a professional point of view, with experience from running small block ford V8's, engine dyno power figures vary very little between europe and the US. The variance comes when you move to chassis dynos.
What we need over here is some US FWD drag racing guys to come and help us set up our cars properly.









thats the exact thing we need to hear, a professional point of view... iv been baffled for ages about this.
mike @ momentum tuning said (of uk tuning) "your whole tuning ethos is so reserved".... 
is that true?


----------



## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (Mickey Marrows)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mickey Marrows* »_this makes interesting reading.
Don't think we have DynoJets over here..
http://www.truehp.com/magazine....html


thats... insane....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stephensweetland* »_mike @ momentum tuning said (of uk tuning) "your whole tuning ethos is so reserved".... 
is that true?

Definitely could be. I know a lot of us locally here try and push things to the edge every time out. You have to break it to find the limit. If it's not breaking you're not trying hard enough.








Another thing you guys might not realize is that a lot of us on the east coast of the US have a number of very high quality tracks close by. I know of at least 6 within 2hrs drive and 4 of them are BIG tracks. I can go out every Wed night in the summer and run my car and get 4 passes in and be home by 9pm. That doesn't even count Sat Test&Tune and events on Sundays. I don't think you guys have that luxury there.
As far as setup, most of our street cars are fairly simple. Chassis setup on mine is just coils, and I'm still running street tires, stock bushings, stock coil rates, etc
. You mentioned though that a 2.0 60' is VERY good, while here it's only good for street tires. I've cut 1.9's before on street tires though not in this car yet. I've done low 1.7s on slicks, and I've seen 'street' type cars with bigger slicks cut down into the 1.6s without too much trouble. 
If you take that into account a 'normal' slicked street car in the US is about .3-.4sec faster then you right out of the gate. A .1sec change in 60' is almost .2sec at the top end as well adding to the discrepancy.
Moral: you guys need some HOOK.


----------



## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

heres a deal, you come here and tell us how to set up our engines, and we'll forgive you for misspelling all those english words... lol


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stephensweetland* »_heres a deal, you come here and tell us how to set up our engines, and we'll forgive you for misspelling all those english words... lol

Gotta find the time for a summer trip







Oh and part of the deal is telling me which ones I spelled wrong. Don't even think about saying 'tire.'


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i wasnt saying you, i was just being prejudiced in general... lol


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

here is my 12.0 pass. one of my many. this is my n/a r32 swap. this is for the haters 
http://vids.myspace.com/index....49074


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_this is for the haters 

Is there any way to move to the top of that list?


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Is there any way to move to the top of that list?









myspace top 24 list?


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_here is my 12.0 pass. one of my many. this is my n/a r32 swap. this is for the haters 
http://vids.myspace.com/index....49074

nice... what mods have you made?
ps. whos hating?


_Modified by stephensweetland at 7:35 PM 1-19-2007_


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*

mods are
6lb flywheel
3.94 with peloquin
3" exhaust with magnaflow muffler and stock unported header
custom cold air
MoTeC M600 engine managment tuned by yours truely
edelbrock 75mm throttle body off a mustang (same size as stock)
schrick 268/264 cams.
funny thing is when i was on the dyno, i LOST power by dropping the exhaust. even trying to fine tune it and going thru motecs autotune. same went for race gas but i want able to get as much time into it. i tried the VP 104 no lead. it showed no gains. i just run 93 exxon from my gas station and turn the key. i sheered 3rd gear once and a couple of axels, and broke a clutchnet pressureplate. i guess thats what happenes when youi are making more then 260ftlbs at the wheels and spin the tires from a 3rd gear roll... EASING into the gas lol


----------



## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_here is my 12.0 pass. one of my many. this is my n/a r32 swap. this is for the haters 
http://vids.myspace.com/index....49074


was there.. seen it. 
your car is sick Chris... i love NA power.. whats it weight in at?
waterfest this year?


----------



## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Moral: you guys need some HOOK.


----------



## phatvr6 (Nov 13, 2001)

I still don't see how you can run a 12 anything with any mk3, they are so heavy!!!
As for the whole "it's the american way of life, they take it more seriously" well I can tell you now that when I was into it with the mk2 i used to go to santa pod 3 times a year and york dragway about 10 times a year, Doing on average 12 runs each visit. Also, I made the effort to actually try different launch techniques, shift points, flat shifting, exhaust off, etc etc and check my slips EVERY time to see which runs were quicker. I really don't think I could have got much more out of the car without true drag slicks,plastic windows and lightweight wheels. The car and technique must have worked as I still haven't seen another NA VR6 (12v) run anywhere near that time in the UK (other than the R32 swapped mk2's about).
I'd be seriously surprised if my track prepared, supercharged, 3.2 24v, haldex equiped, corrado runs a 12.0, even with the Quaife dog box and around 400BHP (or PS, whatever you want to call it).


_Modified by phatvr6 at 10:46 AM 1-20-2007_


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (phatvr6)*

well if you dont understand it watch Race-Shop clips and believe








the UK people always seem to get pissed that we can drive








Drag racing is a US thing hence why we're better at it.......
we're talking about "real" drag strips here not coned off airports....
most of these guys are running big slicks and dropping the clutch off the redline......i'm yet to even see a UK car on the stripp that was driven properly....i'm not ragging on your guys....you just have to understand these guys are Good drivers who are very experienced in drag racing taking hundreds of runs and are very serious.....the biggest thing i tend to find is how people shift 1-3 the secret is DONT lift your foot keep the gas slammed to the floor slightly blipp the throttle but keep that pedal down.......kinda like powershifting a mustang.....so i think its more about driving and a properly prepped track......oh yea and if you dont hook get bigger tires


----------



## peat_yt mk2 (Oct 20, 2005)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

i know the problem here ! 
in the uk 
1 year = 365 1/4 days
1 week = 7 days
1 days = 24hrs 
1 hour =60 minutes 
1 minute = 60 seconds
1 second = 100 centiseconds
1 second = 10 deciseconds

i think u guys must have carried on thinking that there was 60 centiseconds in 1 second and 6 deciseconds in 1 second !
so making all your timing equipment out of sink with ours !
its a easy mistake to make , dont feel bad















its probably our fault for not teaching it to u enuff wen u were just starting up !















santa pod is no air strip thats been coned off , not that any of this matters as it only counts on the road anyway ! the way i see it it that dragging on a over prepared surface is cheating ,like getting sliks on a other wize street leagal car ! but thats just me








get some pics of these 3.2 24vs i wanna see them !


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (peat_yt mk2)*

yea your a "wanker" in UK terms
and your right dragging on a prepare surface is cheating we're all cheaters in the US and know nothing about the sport of drag racing....
clearly these races need to be performed on dangerous uneven roads like in the UK......dude read what you type before you hit enter....
this guy truly found out why we are such better drag racers...
we cheat


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (peat_yt mk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peat_yt mk2* »_ the way i see it it that dragging on a over prepared surface is cheating ,like getting sliks on a other wize street leagal car ! but thats just me











I bet u think it's cheating to make your car lighter also right?


----------



## peat_yt mk2 (Oct 20, 2005)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

thank for the grown up responce ! it shows real intelligence in your part !
i am a wanker had a petty good one last night , thanks !
when i am talking about over prepared surface i am talking about all drag strips UK and US ! so dont get all defensive !
just for the record i think that noz is cheating as well !
in a road car i dont see the point of putting slicks on it so u can say " my car goes this fast " when on the road it wont do that ! 
i await a " jack ass " or "son of a bitch " comment in a reply , 
prove me wrong and try not to and up looking about 12 !
pete


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (peat_yt mk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peat_yt mk2* »_in a road car i dont see the point of putting slicks on it so u can say " my car goes this fast " when on the road it wont do that ! 

I put slicks on to go fast at the strip because that's where I race. I don't race on the street because I like to be able to drive to my job every day with a valid drivers license and cheap insurance.







8 months out of the year I can hit the strip 4 days a week and get 4+ runs each day without problems (usually more). No real reason to even practice on the street!


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I put slicks on to go fast at the strip because that's where I race. I don't race on the street because I like to be able to drive to my job every day with a valid drivers license and cheap insurance.







8 months out of the year I can hit the strip 4 days a week and get 4+ runs each day without problems (usually more). No real reason to even practice on the street!


beyond that.. most us drive to the track, some switch tires... i dont like to work that much so i come "race ready". Which includes tires and exhaust.
i put my Drag radials on at home... drop the exhaust when i get to the track. and off i go.. anyone thats watched me do my exhaust knows it only takes me a few minutes to remove and install it. i dont even get dirty doing it.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (peat_yt mk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peat_yt mk2* »_thank for the grown up responce ! it shows real intelligence in your part !
i am a wanker had a petty good one last night , thanks !
when i am talking about over prepared surface i am talking about all drag strips UK and US ! so dont get all defensive !
just for the record i think that noz is cheating as well !
in a road car i dont see the point of putting slicks on it so u can say " my car goes this fast " when on the road it wont do that ! 
i await a " jack ass " or "son of a bitch " comment in a reply , 
prove me wrong and try not to and up looking about 12 !
pete











i can run 11's all day long on the street. i dont wanna turn this into a streetracing tread.. but ive had a fair share of "road battles". Just to name a few... vette's, vipers, 10 second mustangs... oh and a few bikes... all of them were losers on the road...
here's a street trim vid where i gotta a bit giddy.. spun like a dumbass and still landed a 11 second pass. i only wish i had video of my 11.1 pass to shut you guys up.
http://www.vwot.org/community/...7.wmv


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_MoTeC M600 engine managment tuned by yours truely

ah, so there is more to it than just

_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_my r32 swap dynoed 266 wheel with schrick 268/264 cams and ran a 12.0 at 112 in the 1/4 mile. other then the cams, i have a cold air intake and 3" exhaust using a stock header. 

now, in that video, you're running slicks, and youv set your car up to drag properly.
i do not doubt for a moment that gareth could see 12 seconds if he did the same.
however, for the most part, we run our cars on the strip in the form that they would be on the street.
so when gareth does a 13.7, thats a pretty real-world kind of figure. i think thats the difference.
here in the uk, many of us like to see what our cars will do in roadgoing form.
there are serious guys here, who set their cars up for strip, slicks, rake, weightsaving... but the whole point for us is to see how quick its gonna do it in roadgoing form.
im pretty sure itd be possible to borrow a standard mk3 vr, set it up for the strip, put decent slicks up front, practise my launch technique, and see a 13 second pass next to gareth... but then put it back to roadgoing form, to get home.... and on the way, be totally whooped by gareth.
i guess we're interested in real world times, the way you're interested in real-world bhp (wheel figure, not flywheel figure)


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MINT GTI* »_i only wish i had video of my 11.1 pass to shut you guys up. 

mk3 24v turbo... big difference, your car is likely lots more powerful than gareths. gareth said he cant see how a cam'd exhaust'd n/a 24v could do a 12 second, and thats been answered, thats not all thats done to it, and it was set up to strip.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stephensweetland* »_
ah, so there is more to it than just

now, in that video, you're running slicks, and youv set your car up to drag properly.
i do not doubt for a moment that gareth could see 12 seconds if he did the same.
however, for the most part, we run our cars on the strip in the form that they would be on the street.
so when gareth does a 13.7, thats a pretty real-world kind of figure. i think thats the difference.
here in the uk, many of us like to see what our cars will do in roadgoing form.
there are serious guys here, who set their cars up for strip, slicks, rake, weightsaving... but the whole point for us is to see how quick its gonna do it in roadgoing form.
im pretty sure itd be possible to borrow a standard mk3 vr, set it up for the strip, put decent slicks up front, practise my launch technique, and see a 13 second pass next to gareth... but then put it back to roadgoing form, to get home.... and on the way, be totally whooped by gareth.
i guess we're interested in real world times, the way you're interested in real-world bhp (wheel figure, not flywheel figure)


not realy. i just drive to the track, unload my tools and spare axels







and bolt the slicks on. except for that intake sticking out of my headlight (that did nothing for my times anyways) my car is a true street car even with power steering and functional electric sunroof. no i do not have a/c. the difference is when i built my car i made it for drag racing. that was my intentions from the beging


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stephensweetland* »_so when gareth does a 13.7, thats a pretty real-world kind of figure. i think thats the difference.


True but I'm running my low hp, true street tire'd, 2650lb Mk3 as well and only pulling ~.15sec or less slower. I've only removed the pass and rear seats, still has ac, ps, full bumpers and door bars, sunroof, airbags, etc. Lets just say it wouldn't be hard to make it quite a bit lighter!
We don't drag our cars the way we drive on the street because it doesn't make any sense to when we can just go faster on slicks and less weight








I guess what I'm saying is the track isn't supposed to be a real world figure, it's the TRACK.


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

we dont drag our cars on the road either... you're not really getting what we're saying.
you want to set your car up from scratch to drag race - fine. do that... we (generally speaking) attack things differently.
for example: we quote bhp in the same way manufacturers do - at the flywheel, not at the wheels.... yet that was 'useless'
its a clear difference in the way we do things.... thats as simple as it is.
there is simply no point setting a car up to ONLY do the strip here, because theres only one half decent strip over here.
so we talk about figures that are realistic to us, and that is - generally - what the car will do on the road.
we talk about flywheel power because its an indication on what has been gained over stock... 
gareths car is fast... im sure he could get that time down, but thats neither here nor there. that kind of time bites at modern 'fast cars' factory times.

_Modified by stephensweetland at 7:27 PM 1-22-2007_


_Modified by stephensweetland at 7:29 PM 1-22-2007_


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stephensweetland* »_
mk3 24v turbo... big difference, your car is likely lots more powerful than gareths. gareth said he cant see how a cam'd exhaust'd n/a 24v could do a 12 second, and thats been answered, thats not all thats done to it, and it was set up to strip.

honestly what else is done to my car? i said i had engine managment from the dig. and how is changing over to slicks set up to strip??? i have ran slicks on the street before for obvious reasons. ill run the same times on m&h drag radials...







i can make the same hp on $300 megasquirt. all i am controlling is fuel and spark so the motec is very overkill, but i got a realy good deal on it so i went with something different. so lets compare, a fully built r32 against my car with intake exhaust cams and a computer... and slicks. i think you are looking to make excuses. BTW i ran faster with the bbs rm wheels on the back then those pizza cutters. dont make me break an 11 on DOT tires please. but then i am sure you will find another excuse to why my car does as fast as it does


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

Chris once I get someone to buy my 5lugs I'm getting some 205/60/13 dot's, want to borrow em?


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

*double post*


_Modified by stephensweetland at 10:00 PM 1-22-2007_


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
honestly what else is done to my car? i said i had engine managment from the dig. and how is changing over to slicks set up to strip??? i have ran slicks on the street before for obvious reasons. ill run the same times on m&h drag radials...







i can make the same hp on $300 megasquirt. all i am controlling is fuel and spark so the motec is very overkill, but i got a realy good deal on it so i went with something different. so lets compare, a fully built r32 against my car with intake exhaust cams and a computer... and slicks. i think you are looking to make excuses. BTW i ran faster with the bbs rm wheels on the back then those pizza cutters. dont make me break an 11 on DOT tires please. but then i am sure you will find another excuse to why my car does as fast as it does

sorry, it looked like youd set your suspension with a load of rake - i apologise if that isnt the case, its just how i perceived it.
engine management, which achieves you power at the wheels far greater than the standard vw figure. i wasnt being ironic, im honestly impressed.
what excuse am i making?


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*

who brings a knife to a gun fight?







, running slicks at the track is THE NORM in america daily drivers. hell, around here when we even run slicks on the street when it's time for a MONEY RUNs. Ive seen people run from the cops on slicks on the highway lol. Chris gettem!!!



_Modified by fourthchirpin at 5:52 PM 1-22-2007_


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (stephensweetland)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stephensweetland* »_
mk3 24v turbo... big difference, your car is likely lots more powerful than gareths. gareth said he cant see how a cam'd exhaust'd n/a 24v could do a 12 second, and thats been answered, thats not all thats done to it, and it was set up to strip.


if you read any of my previous post you'd see that the 13.7 even in street trim isnt very good for the amount of power that is claimed.
My MK2 12v VR6 with 165whp ran a 13.88 @ 96mph - ~2850 lbs certainly no light weight. on ROAD TIRES. NO SLICK.
here's a pic.. 100% road worthy.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

u dudes making me feel bad, my best pass was 14.5 in my mk3 with stock internal car. one day ill get my weight up


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MINT GTI* »_.
here's a pic.. 100% road worthy.


I call BS you can't drive it that low with snow on the ground


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

ok then.


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## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I call BS you can't drive it that low with snow on the ground









sure i cant


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

maybe it looks raked cause the slicks have 8 psi of air in them and the skinny wheels are a bit taller?? anyways thats how i drive it on the street. i like the slammed look but since i like to beat the snot out of my car and not worry about my oilpan... you get the idea


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

america .....1







uk....... 0


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_america .....1







uk....... 0

thats funny lol.








i give vento garth a ton of credit tho, because if it wasnt for people like him, how would we know what all motor vws can do? we are few and far between. he just likes to take it to another level (ie. ITBS and ported heads etc.) he is willing to spend money and try new things







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
thats funny lol.








i give vento garth a ton of credit tho, because if it wasnt for people like him, how would we know what all motor vws can do? we are few and far between. he just likes to take it to another level (ie. ITBS and ported heads etc.) he is willing to spend money and try new things







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

werd. btw Chris your 18 and over pass has been approved by none other then ur very own on b20vtec.com


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
i give vento garth a ton of credit tho, because if it wasnt for people like him, how would we know what all motor vws can do? we are few and far between. he just likes to take it to another level (ie. ITBS and ported heads etc.) he is willing to spend money and try new things







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

He's just gotta ship that motor over here for a few weeks so it can run a number. I got a chassis


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## stephensweetland (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

fair play guys.. i guess we gotta wait to see what happens with uk times in the coming season!


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
i give vento garth a ton of credit tho, because if it wasnt for people like him, how would we know what all motor vws can do? we are few and far between. he just likes to take it to another level (ie. ITBS and ported heads etc.) he is willing to spend money and try new things







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Cheers for that, I do like to tweak cars rather than sell them on after a year. I guess for most people they think I've spent a lot of money but if they actualy knew how much I spent then perhaps more people would be doing it. It's about making good contacts in the tuning trade to get good prices.
I put my hands up and say my 13.7sec run was slow but there is two reasons for that, 1: I get to a drag strip maybe twice a year and do about 5-6 runs on each day and the second I drive a long way to the track and I can't be arsed to change tyres and raise rear suspension, take off exhausts etc, I just want to turn up race and have some fun then drive home again without stressing about the car breaking down. If I ran 8psi in slick drag tyres and raised the back of the car up then yes, I'm sure the car will run into the 12's quite easily but there is a real risk with my lack of practice to give it too much gas off the line and snap a drive shaft, cv or worse the gearbox would blow. Santa Pod put sticky glue down when the top fuel drag cars run and that glue catches many people out by giving it too much off the line. Try getting your car recovered from the Pod by a break down service, believe me it's like rocking horse **** trying to get them to a drag strip








It's not all about quickest times in the UK it's more about having fun on a road set-up, well it is for me anyway. Don't get me wrong we have guys turn up with cars who do go the full set-up route and can run low 11's and a couple into the high 10's with road legal cars but most now trailer their cars as they are too impractical to drive on the road. That's just not me I like to thrash the car on and off the track and I comfortably keep up with 1000cc+ race motorbikes on the road up to 150mph but at those speeds you risk jail time of 6months to a year so what's the point!


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## A804 JVN (Aug 4, 2004)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Hey Gareth. The 0-60ft time has a lot to do with it. The best time I have managed so far is a 14.3sec 1/4 with a 2.2 0-60ft in my semi stripped mk1 on road tyres (Eagle F1's) and my trap speed was 94 mph. That was when it was a 1.8 16v with flowed head and quaiffe diff. Thats it. But at the same time my friend in his Pug 106gti managed a 14.6 1/4 because he managed a 0-60ft of 1.9sec on road tyres too!! He only had 135bhp at the fly. His previous best was 14.9 so it makes a hell of a difference. I think there is more to be had at UK drags but that headwind at the POD can really mess up the times. 
The Dynojet HP argument is something else entirely.
Gurds


_Modified by A804 JVN at 10:23 AM 1-26-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_snap a drive shaft, cv or worse the gearbox would blow.

Been there done that, snapped axles at the track a bit but you change them and move on







Only trans I did in was on the street but it was a questionable one anyway and 3rd gear is an ******. All I'm saying is that we're close enough and go often enough that breaking things isn't really a big deal and part of our R&D.


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## FaTT mk1 (Feb 24, 2005)

I know someone who knows the driver of the red ROAD LEGAL DRAG CAR calibra that went to race in the states, ill try and find out the results. im sure he put down the same times that he runs in the uk.......
Dont get us wrong guys theres some QUICK road legal cars in the uk
Paul Bargate 2.0 16v mk2 scirroco N/A 12.8 
James from jabba mk2 20vt around 450hp and in the very low 11s
Paul jordan Mk1 scirroco 20vt 400+ hp low 11s
ALL FWD. 


_Modified by FaTT mk1 at 5:48 AM 1-30-2007_


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (FaTT mk1)*

when you guys start dipping under the 10's you'll start getting my attention


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## FaTT mk1 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

No problem, 10.8 @ 140 not a VW tho, lol 
http://www.an-racing.co.uk/


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## FaTT mk1 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: (Mickey Marrows)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mickey Marrows* »_this makes interesting reading.
Don't think we have DynoJets over here..


Awesome have one. Try looking on there site for rolling road day reports to see some figures to compare to US dynojets. 
Heres one for the US guys to discuss, a few years ago i was talking to UK drag car racer and he had done something like an 10sec pass at 86mph. (i cant remember the EXACT times but it was a 10.x sec and 8xmph) 
I called BS but he had stated to me that theres a way to tell how much wheel spin that you got on the run by the terminal speed?
Basicly depending on the power of your car theres an area to aim for, and if your terminal speed is higher then you got too much spin off the line..... 



_Modified by FaTT mk1 at 12:07 PM 1-31-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (FaTT mk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FaTT mk1* »_
a few years ago i was talking to UK drag car racer and he had done something like an 10sec pass at 86mph. (i cant remember the EXACT times but it was a 10.x sec and 8xmph) 


The only way to do that (in the 1/4) is to lay on the brakes. When I'm bracket racing I can run a [email protected] in my car letting off at the 1000' mark. Gotta figure if he's going 10s he's at least trapping 120ish. Much braking to get down to 80, probably a sub 10sec car normally to do that. 
Trap speeds go up if you spin out of the hole.


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## 95GLX (Dec 13, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Wow, wow, wow!
I just read through all of this thread, some interesting things in here.
I need to get my arse over to the UK and drive some cars. When are the real drag events this year or any of the shoot outs? Anyone want to hire a shoe for the events? Help with airfare and provide a place to stay and I am there.
I would really love to ship my R32 over to see how it runs in the UK at the airstrip or Santa Pod. We should get PVW to help sponsor a race UK vs. USA and ship whichever cars one way or the other. That way, we can see how the cars measure up on equal turf.
We can call it the PVW VAG summit. Anyone got an inside track with PVW. I am sure the readers would love this.
If we rent a couple large cargo containers it wouldn't be so bad to ship the cars over the pond.
the difference in the numbers between the UK and the states is just too crazy to not give this a go!
I have run 12.7's in my daily driven MKIV R32 on street radials more then once. As far as true street car vs. drag only cars; this same R32 was driven on many road courses. This week it held it's own against at Barber Motorsports roller Coaster style road course on Monday and then ran [email protected] that Sunday eactly how it was run at Barber. 
Looks like the same BHP as Gareth with only Cams, Flash, exhaust, intake and 93 octane. 
What the heck is going on? Let's do this summit comparison and figure it out.
Anthony Dowd

_Modified by 95GLX at 6:06 AM 2-13-2007_


_Modified by 95GLX at 6:08 AM 2-13-2007_


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (95GLX)*

It's been a while since I've heard from you Anthony, have you still got the Mk3 VR6 ITB or is it just the R32 you are running now?
As for racing this summer there is GTI International, the biggest U.K. show 16th/17th June at Bruntingthorpe near Leicester (right in the middle of the country, nearest airport is Birmingham). This is the same place PVW use for their shootouts in the magazine.
For a proper race the best event would be either GTI Spring Festival 15th April or a better chance of good weather at GTI Festival 8th July both at Santa Pod near Northampton. This is the best 1/4 mile track we have to offer and would give the most accurate times for comparison.
As for your times Anthony, you have always been a quick racer, if your running similar hp to me then 13.0 is about right I think with 4wd. If I could get a little more grip off the line I would run close to 12's as my best terminal speed was 111mph compared to your 103mph. I know a chap with a red Mk2 Golf with an R32 + DSG gearbox and he is running into the 12's. I'm sure PVW would love to hold a thrash for U.K. vs USA, I know the Editor, Elliott Roberts quite well, I will mention it to him next time I see him.


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## 95GLX (Dec 13, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_It's been a while since I've heard from you Anthony, have you still got the Mk3 VR6 ITB or is it just the R32 you are running now?
As for your times Anthony, you have always been a quick racer, if your running similar hp to me then 13.0 is about right I think with 4wd. If I could get a little more grip off the line I would run close to 12's as my best terminal speed was 111mph compared to your 103mph. I know a chap with a red Mk2 Golf with an R32 + DSG gearbox and he is running into the 12's. I'm sure PVW would love to hold a thrash for U.K. vs USA, I know the Editor, Elliott Roberts quite well, I will mention it to him next time I see him.

I have to do another Engine for the A3 Gti as I finally blew it up being an idiot. Bad thing is that I am in Florida and the car is 1000 miles away in Maryland.
I have run in the 12's as well, that was with no cats, race gas and lighter race seats. It was also during hot lapping, made 7 passes in 25 minutes, 5 were in the 12's. Quickest was a [email protected], look at my signature.
If we can work the logistics out I am sure we could drum up a few other cars to come over. 
Anthony


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

Even if you can't get a car over you should try and get yourself to GTI International, I'm sure I can lend you my car for a few runs or Paul Horrocks aka PhatVR6 will lend you his 3.2 Mk4. The only problem with International is you have to run road tyres and the surface is poor as it's a runway not a race track.
There is a big group that normally stay in a local hotel to the show and I'm organising the booking now. You can get cheap flights these days, well worth popping over for the weekend.


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: 400 Hp without Nos or forced induction? (Mastiff)*

400whp NO. Not w/o nirtous, of f/i from a VR6.


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## daffe (Apr 27, 2017)

*evolutions*



Morrado said:


> 400whp NO. Not w/o nirtous, of f/i from a VR6.


why boy?since the beginning of this thread there is a lot of evolutions on this engine.if you're don't care of spending money:simply destroke it and make it rev's over 8000rpm with the rest of needed mod: beast head work, agressives cams (12.5/13 mm lift), high CR.......
i'm absolutely sur, if you can breakit you will near from 400hp


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