# Haldex Improved?



## Paul Bujold (Feb 25, 2014)

According to George's Geneva show coverage:

"Another substantial change quite hidden from view is the evolution of the TT’s quattro system. Still based on the hydraulic clutch system commonly referred to as “Haldex”, the differential is now moved to the rear axle and operates as a full-time all-wheel drive system rolling down the road… so more like the mechanical quattro system in larger Audis, yet still quicker to adjust itself than quattro systems with a mechanical differential. Also, with features like Audi Drive Select now filtering to a Haldex-based cars like the TT and TTS, this means more aggressive power distribution tendencies based on the mode chosen by the driver. ‘Auto’ goes for maximum traction while ‘Sport’ sends more power to the rear."

Is haldex now just as good or even better than Torsen?


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

No, not by a long shot.
It's still the same crapy Haldex system that feed from the rightside front drive shaft and is still not able to transfer more then 50% of the power to the rear axle.
Most of the time 90% of the power is stil going to the frontwheels.


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## Paul Bujold (Feb 25, 2014)

Disappointing. The marketing makes it sound like a significant improvement.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

It sounds like haldex is more plugged in to the car's other systems so it can be much more proactive than the reactive system it started out as.


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

Maybe, but it is still the same basic system.


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## [email protected] (Dec 12, 2001)

JohnLZ7W said:


> It sounds like haldex is more plugged in to the car's other systems so it can be much more proactive than the reactive system it started out as.


It is. The newer generations of Haldex have the ability to be "active" systems that can allocate torque based on a lot of input factors rather than just "passive" ones that require wheel slip in order to do so.



R5T said:


> Maybe, but it is still the same basic system.


Only insofar as the basic governing idea goes.

-Tim


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

The only new part is the Gen 5 Haldex coupling at the rear axle, and it is nothing special IMHO.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Lol, thanks for your first hand driving impressions, again.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree. There is nothing that bugs me more in the Audi circles than when b3-b7 owners with longitude Torsen quattro look down on Haldex with a superior eye. I mean, honestly, a b5 s4 has one of the poorest awd systems out there. It is an extremely nose heavy car with an open front diff, a 66% split torque bias to the rear where it is channeled to an an open diff out back. To summarize, it is basically a 2wd car in most situations. As stated, the only exception to this snooty superiority stance is when the new sport diff is equip in the b8s or b7 rs4s, or in cars that have added a proper rear diff like a Wavetrac or clutch based rear diff. 

I own a shop that specializes in 5 cylinder cars. We deal with the original Quattro a lot. It had a locker rear and center diff. Back in the hay day of rally, most drivers preferred a locked center diff(50/50 therefore) with an open rear diff. This led to a very predictable slide once underway and was a lot easier to control at the limit. That is basically what the Haldex is doing with the Gen 5, or some of the earlier setups with a HPA or similar haldex controllers. 

Moving the pump and some of the mechancials to the rear is a move in the right direction. The more weight in the rear, the better. I think the gen 5 will be a fantastic addition to a fantastic drivetrain. I find it absolutely fascinating that people can hail the steel bodied 3600lb 295hp Mitsubishi EVO 10 as a track beast with more or less a haldex system and dsg transmission, then in the same breath call haldex "fake awd" in the 290hp 3100lb aluminum TTS.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

The Audi USA A3/S3 brochure, available in the Audi Library iPad app, states that the AWD system is 90/10 in "normal driving" and up to 100% power can be sent to the front or to the rear.


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## outshined (Jul 30, 2011)

URHank said:


> I agree. There is nothing that bugs me more in the Audi circles than when b3-b7 owners with longitude Torsen quattro look down on Haldex with a superior eye. I mean, honestly, a b5 s4 has one of the poorest awd systems out there. It is an extremely nose heavy car with an open front diff, a 66% split torque bias to the rear where it is channeled to an an open diff out back. To summarize, it is basically a 2wd car in most situations. As stated, the only exception to this snooty superiority stance is when the new sport diff is equip in the b8s or b7 rs4s, or in cars that have added a proper rear diff like a Wavetrac or clutch based rear diff.
> 
> I own a shop that specializes in 5 cylinder cars. We deal with the original Quattro a lot. It had a locker rear and center diff. Back in the hay day of rally, most drivers preferred a locked center diff(50/50 therefore) with an open rear diff. This led to a very predictable slide once underway and was a lot easier to control at the limit. That is basically what the Haldex is doing with the Gen 5, or some of the earlier setups with a HPA or similar haldex controllers.
> 
> Moving the pump and some of the mechancials to the rear is a move in the right direction. The more weight in the rear, the better. I think the gen 5 will be a fantastic addition to a fantastic drivetrain. I find it absolutely fascinating that people can hail the steel bodied 3600lb 295hp Mitsubishi EVO 10 as a track beast with more or less a haldex system and dsg transmission, then in the same breath call haldex "fake awd" in the 290hp 3100lb aluminum TTS.


Great post.


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## yip (Jul 14, 2003)

R5T said:


> The only new part is the Gen 5 Haldex coupling at the rear axle, and it is nothing special IMHO.


You should see if the mods will change your name to Eeyore:


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

R5T said:


> The only new part is the Gen 5 Haldex coupling at the rear axle, and it is nothing special IMHO.


That's the only part of the system that matters! The power take-off at the bevel box is just a geared coupling off of the transmission. All of the pumps and controls are at the coupling ahead of the rear diff.


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDRVTjMPK9Q


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## bbbobbb (Feb 4, 2007)

R5T said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDRVTjMPK9Q


That is super! Thanks!


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

Is this the first Haldex produced under the ownership of Borg Warner?


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

pal said:


> Is this the first Haldex produced under the ownership of Borg Warner?


So far i know, yes.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Interesting discussions and as always, VMG forums offers lots of good info that helps put things in to perspective.

I think when we all take a step back and ignore the drivers aid for a moment and look to polish up on driving skills that is when driving becomes more enjoyable as opposed to worrying about the drivers aid affecting the enjoyment of a particular platform.

If we take a look at Ferrari for example, they entirely did away with manual box post the 430 and that was met with some disapproval however the rest of the total package helped ease the anguish - mainly their fantastic V8 and V12 engines. 

Aston attempted that same exercise but failed somewhat because their auto box insisted on using an '_outdated_' design but attempted to offer an auto box. 

McLaren also did away with the manual box with great success. 

Offcourse Porsche have finally woken up going down that same route...so driver aid can be refined to assist here...it is down to the consumer so I say embrace it; look to improve your driving skills - track driving instructions is invaluable here - and you will be amazed how to make even a mundane 4-wd Audi do when you learn/know how to '_lean_' on it 

I look forward to the Gen3 MagneRide; the Gen5 Haldex (_the HPA race version would be interesting if they release that - the one I have had on mine since 2010 is great:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:_) and I may well try a DSG box on the MK3 TT-RS provided the 5-pot is retained though...we are spoilt in modern motoring...too many driver aids but then again changing/improving also our driving skills removes the worries of what the electronics may have changed for better or for worse...just my thoughts offcourse...


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

R5T said:


> So far i know, yes.


My Gen 4 Haldex box said Borg Warner on it.. not sure if they developed it, though. When did Borg Warner take over?


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

jsausley said:


> My Gen 4 Haldex box said Borg Warner on it.. not sure if they developed it, though. When did Borg Warner take over?


Looks like Feb 1, 2011 is when they made the announcement

http://www.borgwarner.com/en/News/P...inalizesAcquisitionOfHaldexTractionSystem.pdf

Gen 5 Haldex Info - looks like there is an electrical pump that primes the system.
Gen 5 Haldex Tech Info


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## Can_quattro (May 31, 2014)

Looks like Audi's animation has not been added to this thread.

[video]https://www.audi-mediaservices.com/publish/ms/content/en/public/webvideo/2014/03/11/TT_quattro_antrieb.-download.acq/qual-Video.Single.VideoFile/W2014054_TT_quattro_Antrieb_Animation_en_prev.mp4[/video]


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## Adrien (May 8, 2013)

Can_quattro said:


> Looks like Audi's animation has not been added to this thread.
> 
> [video]https://www.audi-mediaservices.com/publish/ms/content/en/public/webvideo/2014/03/11/TT_quattro_antrieb.-download.acq/qual-Video.Single.VideoFile/W2014054_TT_quattro_Antrieb_Animation_en_prev.mp4[/video]


Interesting, thanks for posting. It seems from this video that you can select a dynamic mode which gives you essentially full-time AWD. Nice. I don't think the Golf R gives you that option. Wonder what these puppies are going to cost here in Canada ...


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## ARK80Scirocco-96GLX (Feb 14, 2008)

It also has an efficiency mode? I'm new to the TT so maybe that's been there a while? Just starting to think about his being my next toy transportation.


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## HoyaZot (Dec 30, 2010)

hate to bump an old thread, but what is the verdict here? Still basically a FWD biased car that once in a while will send 50% to the rear? 
such a bummer, if so.


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

I believe only the new RS3 Sportback have something better, as will be on the upcoming TT RS.


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