# Re dynoed the VRT today



## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

If you guys remember the low power I was making before, heres the link http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4501175.
Well it turned out to be the turbine wheel on the turbo was toast, it was all chipped up and badly damaged, it was only the exducer side, the induces was mint. I bought it off a vortexer but I dont think he knew about it. After scoring a rebuilt t04b on ebay for $200. I received it and swapped the t04S compressor side over, got the assembly balanced and it sure is making power now. Top end is not what I was expecting with the .81, but Im on the stock intake manifold and cams would help too, infact ive got some 268's I have to through in there. at 20psi it made 404whp and 396trq, best pass was at 22psi making 424whp and 400wtrq, however boost was creeping to 23.5 psi by 7K rpms. the a/f on the dyno reads leaner then the AEM which saw the highest of 12.5 with methanol. Im not sure why it goes pig rich when boost hits hard, but it clears up quickly. Maybe MAF needs some flickering around. Im going to put together all the dyno runs and go by order from the day it was built.
All dynoes were done on P-trim .81 housings
OBD1 36#, looking at the graph, after 6000 power started dropping slowly, the red graph is with meth and green without around 18psi, found out after the turbo was running out of compressor so it wasnt gaining power.








OBD1 17psi, 








OBD1 with T04S 60-1 with damaged exhaust wheel at 19psi








OBD2 T04S with new exhaust wheel, 23psi








OBD2 with Cams added at 21psi









_Modified by marat_g60 at 3:39 PM 10-30-2009_


_Modified by marat_g60 at 9:16 PM 11-9-2009_


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

That sure will make for a fun ride. T3 turbine housing I'm assuming? Hows the response on it? Also, what compression ratio are you running?


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (marat_g60)*

You're right something doesn't seem right about the top end. I figure with the .81 a/r housing you would be seeing more top end or at least a flatter power band not such a drastic drop off. Schrick 268's would help a lot if you could get them tuned with the car. Anyone else have any suggestions?


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (Weiss)*

its a t4 p-trim housing actually. Spools around 3500 and makes 20psi around 4400, right when the a/f goes pig rich for some reason. Im running a 8.5 headspacer. You can see all the details in the link i posted. I already have 268 cams which are going in this week, maybe ill get it dynoed again to see the difference.


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (marat_g60)*

I think if you can I would lean it out a little up top since it's running pig rich or maybe tuning with the cams will help lean it out and make a little more power if not change the power band. The dyno looks like what old VRT's used to look like before people started learning how to program them correctly.


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## Lil red roket (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

What software are you running?
I am running *OLD* ass C2 42# software with a T04B .96 exducer and 8.5 spacer at 25psi and I am still PIG ass rich at the top end. If you have C2 it's just a characteristic of there "safe" tuning.







Last time I had mine on a wide band the gauge was pegged at 10:1 A/F. It's been good for mid 11 second passes all day though.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: (Lil red roket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lil red roket* »_What software are you running?
I am running *OLD* ass C2 42# software with a T04B .96 exducer and 8.5 spacer at 25psi and I am still PIG ass rich at the top end. If you have C2 it's just a characteristic of there "safe" tuning.







Last time I had mine on a wide band the gauge was pegged at 10:1 A/F. It's been good for mid 11 second passes all day though. 

His tune is good, it runs a bit lean if anything. The timing is good too, I logged it a few weeks ago


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (marat_g60)*

boost leak? loosing sparks for some reason? how old is the valve springs? valve floating? something is not right
I am on stock cams and my dyno line is flat from 5500RPM till 7400RPM


_Modified by zwogti at 11:58 PM 10-12-2009_


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (marat_g60)*

don't add any parts till you find the problem


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

He put some cams in it and said the top end feels much better http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*

I am sure the cams will add topend but that is not the way to fix the problem. the power drop a lot, something is wrong. it is a T4 with .81 hot side, this car got to have a better top end. I had a T4 .69 and had a much better dyno graf than this car, like I said I would not add any parts till the problem if fixed, adding more parts is just making hard to find the problem. I havea built motor and still on a 125k miles OEM 9 years old cam with a flat dyno graf. this turbo may have a smaller back house than you are thinking. make sure thats it is a T4 .81 back house. 
that dyno ^^^ shows that the power from 5500 RPM to 6800 RPM drop around 80 WHP









_Modified by zwogti at 4:35 AM 10-13-2009_


_Modified by zwogti at 12:59 PM 10-13-2009_


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (zwogti)*

Sorry havnt been watching this for a while, I assumed gaining 100whp in top end over the old damaged turbo solved my problems. That drop could be caused by the stock intake manifold no? I was gonna dyno again with the cams but blew the clutch a few nights ago.I want a short runner but dont want a ****ty flowing one, and dont want to lose alot of low end for almost no topend gains. Oh an I had the head off last, pretty much went thru everything and replaced lifters while I was in there, its much quieter now. I think theres nothing wrong with it, how many vr6 turbos with stock intake and stock cams are making topend?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*

I agree: make sure you don't have an ATP T3 ~special houisng...
.8x T3 with a T4 mounting flange. I have seen a few of these on cars
where the owner thought it was my software holding them back.
Boy were they pissed when I showed them a real T4 .81 houisng.

-Jeff


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Jefnes3)*

That would suck a little.


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Jefnes3)*

It is a T4 .81 housing Ive been using .81's since I got into vrt's.
Its also a P-trim wheel, one thing I can tell you tho, from 18-23 psi, all the gains were there but only until 6500rpm or so, by 7000rpm, power drops to 345whp again at any psi. Basically past 6500 it wont gain any more power, show me dyno graphs of vrt's pushing 400whp on stock intake manifold and lets look at the differences


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*

Not the best comparison b/c I only run 12psi of boost, but here is my dyno of a to4E .69 P trim, stock manifold, dsr 256, ported head, 3" DP and 2.5" exhaust(has 3" now). A small drop in HP after 6200rpm but I'm betting the 3" made that even less.
What exhaust is on that car? What turbo is it again? 
I'm going obd2 over the winter and keeping the stock manifold so I will be curious to see what it looks like up top at ~20psi. For the record I don't think the stock manifold is the problem.










_Modified by slc92 at 8:48 AM 10-14-2009_


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

What everyone is saying is correct. You should be building HP well into the 6000s. 
Mike


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

3" catless all the way. T04S 60-1 .81 hotside with a p-trim wheel. We will see what it makes after a shorty manifold. I cant think of anything else, only other possibility is the intercooler/piping. But we have pretty much the same setup so i doubt thats the problem.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Needs VTEC


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*

I love zee Vtec yoo, gotta love those boosted hondas.
Well I guess Im screwed then cause I cant find this damn problem, however, I felt a big gain in top end after installing the 268 eurospec cams, never got to dyno, but I will soon when I get the clutch fixed and perhaps get a short runner as its on my list either way. I agree that it should've made more top end on stock cams and manifold


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*

found this in the search








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3638609 
very similar mods, but his car made more low end power which leads me to believe he was running a .58 or .69 hotside, hopefully he'll chime in and clear that up.
EDIT: It was a .69 he was using, maybe the stock intake is restrictive after 350whp


_Modified by marat_g60 at 2:06 PM 10-14-2009_


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*

that ^^^^^ was with a T67 or something like that on a .69 or .81 back house, too big of a compressor, with 83mm pistons for that small back house to flow all that, so he was choking up top bad.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *marat_g60* »_found this in the search








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3638609 
very similar mods, but his car made more low end power which leads me to believe he was running a .58 or .69 hotside, hopefully he'll chime in and clear that up.
EDIT: It was a .69 he was using, maybe the stock intake is restrictive after 350whp

_Modified by marat_g60 at 2:06 PM 10-14-2009_

Yeah that was a t04e .69 if I'm not mistaken. Same turbo I'm running. Not sure of his exhaust, head, or cams though. I know he was on a stock intake.
Hmm. Anxious to see mine, but if I lose 120whp from 5500-6700rpm I'm not gonna be too happy.


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (zwogti)*

That was actually on a T04E at 20psi with a .69 housing. 
edit: Damn we posted at the same time lol
he was running stock cams and stock head. You will have better top end as you have 256 cams and have a bit of porting done, but I think power will slowly drop after 6K on the stock intake.



_Modified by marat_g60 at 2:51 PM 10-14-2009_


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

The other thing I noticed is that you both peak around 5500 rpm and then decline. I hit peak closer to 6k even with the 2.5" exhaust and only lose about 20whp to 6900rpm. Maybe it's the cams and ported head. I'm also running less boost so that could be it too.
Another thing on powerband. Higher isn't necessarily better IMO. Just shift earlier. As long as the setup works together meaning match the cam, hotside, and intake http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by slc92 at 5:49 PM 10-14-2009_


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

Yes both peak at 5500rpms and thats because of the stock cam/manifold combo. even the 256's will move power further up a bit, that is why you peak higher and as you said you got some port work done also. I think the 3" exhaust gave you overall gains and quicker spool as opposed to top end gains. I agree higher isnt better, but I think the higher you rev and make power efficiently, the less torque you'll make which will be better for our crappy 02a's. As you can see my car doesnt have much low end power, but it should be making top end. If I shift too early I fall out of boost and it takes a second to hit boost in the next gear again. Dont get me wrong I still rev the **** out of it, I shift around 7000 in st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th roughly 6600. that drops me into my powerband. Once it makes topend Im gonna be cruising at 6K+ daily


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## MiamiVr6T (Jul 24, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *marat_g60* »_found this in the search









Stock head, 3" Downpipe, T04E with a T4 .69a/r, Stock Intake Manifold
Turbo couldn't flow anymore. Couldn't make anymore power even with more boost I through at it.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (MiamiVr6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MiamiVr6T* »_
Stock head, 3" Downpipe, T04E with a T4 .69a/r, Stock Intake Manifold
Turbo couldn't flow anymore. Couldn't make anymore power even with more boost I through at it. 

Yeah I have the same exact turbo.Jeff at C2 said it's done at around 400whp.
I think most of us were wondering why such a huge drop off from 5500-6750rpm. You lost about 130whp and 190wtq. 
Any ideas? Was it holding boost through 6750? Pulling timing maybe?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Yeah I have the same exact turbo.Jeff at C2 said it's done at around 400whp.
I think most of us were wondering why such a huge drop off from 5500-6750rpm. You lost about 130whp and 190wtq. 
Any ideas? Was it holding boost through 6750? Pulling timing maybe?


My guess is it's a combination of the stock VR6 head/cams/manifold that cause the power to drop off. The boost is creeping because the intake system/head/cams are a big restriction at those power levels/RPM.
I bet his setup will make a lot more top end up to 7200 with the cams and a shorty intake manifold. 


_Modified by sp_golf at 1:11 PM 10-15-2009_


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_
My guess is it's a combination of the stock VR6 head/cams/manifold that cause the power to drop off. The boost is creeping because the intake system/head/cams are a big restriction at those power levels/RPM.
I bet his setup will make a lot more top end up to 7200 with the cams and a shorty intake manifold. 

_Modified by sp_golf at 1:11 PM 10-15-2009_

Possible. It will be real interesting to compare when I go obd2 and dyno. Same turbo, exhaust, boost, manifold. I'd like to see what the cams and mild port work do from 5500-7k vs. the big drop these 2 are showing.
I'm not seeing it at 320whp, but maybe I will at 400whp. I'm always curious of how much is cam, head, and turbo vs. an SRI.


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

good to see you still in the game http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
decent #'s http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (pileofredparts)*

Since the last time I dynoed it, I did the timing chains, 268 eurospec cams, 6spd vwmotorsport transmission. I dynoed today, it was much hotter than last time. At 21psi it hit 416whp and the top end is much better than stock cams. It made more power at less boost which is good, I was also running meth and a/f was in the 11.8-12.5 range.








and this one is back to back








Im very happy with the new numbers and am planning on trying a 4bar fpr to raise boost.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Be careful though a 4BAR FPR will make you run rich out of boost


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## SlammedGolfIII (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: (KubotaPowered)*

4bar fpr on my built VR with 42# stuff had me running disgustingly rich......


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (SlammedGolfIII)*

yea the 4 bar didnt work out too good, wasted gas and didnt make much of a difference in boost so I put the 3bar back on.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

This car fookin mooves


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (marat_g60)*

sick! congrats with the #s! 
now pics of the setup and the car 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (PjS860ct)*

Nice improvement. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (DieGTi)*

so I guess you foud the problem..... bad turbo wheel, this is good news, good #'s 


_Modified by zwogti at 12:01 AM 11-3-2009_


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

Is there a way distinguish a Garrett T3 back housing from an ATP 'special housing' ?


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: Re dynoed the VRT today (PjS860ct)*

thanks boys I'll get pics for sure http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
It runs very good Im happy with it now, might just keep the stock intake until someone makes a nice one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Pics and videos are in order!


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (pubahs)*

im planning on going to the track on sunday, if i go then ill have vids 4 sure. As for pics ill post some up shortly http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (marat_g60)*

What are you doing for traction? Boost control, lsd, slicks?


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (slc92)*

well its pretty cold now so im not gonna get the best traction, and the 6spd threw my gearing off as i bought the 23" slicks for the 5spd ccm gearing, now im gonna have to shift into 5th. So im gonna need 24.5 for next season to avoid 5th gear. Its got a quiafe in it, dss stage 3 and act 6puck. I hope i dont break anything. 1st and 2nd gear dont see full boost anyways so im hoping that'll help a bit. Lets hope for the best










_Modified by marat_g60 at 6:06 AM 11-6-2009_


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (marat_g60)*

What are you using for boost control?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Car has an MBC. 
Marat throw some boost by gear in that bitch, or at least a good EBC


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_Car has an MBC. 
Marat throw some boost by gear in that bitch, or at least a good EBC

So how does 1st and 2nd not see full boost


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

In low gears theres not enough load on the engine to make full boost. By the time it builds boost its time to shift, I see about 16psi in 1st, and 17 or so in 2nd, rest of them 20psi and up. Still too much boost to launch. Steve do you see the same boost in 2nd gear and 4th gear? if so, maybe once you bump up the boost you wont.
I probably will get a boost by gear boost controller but thats for next season.
We'll see what it can do the way it sits but Im definitely gonna loose some time with the 23"'s due to shifting into 5th and less traction than 24.5's.
Sorin you still down for sunday?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Yeah I'm in if I don't end up partying til morn again... weather looks good too. What's your 4th gear supposed to top out at on the 23s?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *marat_g60* »_In low gears theres not enough load on the engine to make full boost. By the time it builds boost its time to shift, I see about 16psi in 1st, and 17 or so in 2nd, rest of them 20psi and up. Still too much boost to launch. Steve do you see the same boost in 2nd gear and 4th gear? if so, maybe once you bump up the boost you wont.
I probably will get a boost by gear boost controller but thats for next season.
We'll see what it can do the way it sits but Im definitely gonna loose some time with the 23"'s due to shifting into 5th and less traction than 24.5's.
Sorin you still down for sunday?

Gotcha. You know it's so fast I never really looked in 1st and 2nd!
What ring and pinion do you have in there?
Money is tight so my swap may be on hold alltogether or I may have to make the best of a MBC and some 24.5's for next season. I've heard good things about the APEXI AVCR if you spend some decent amount of time setting up the gear/speed based boost correctly. I think those are ~$500 new though.
Good luck and let us know how you do http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Any weight reduction in that car?


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

If you just watch the boost gauge in 1st and 2nd, you will redline before seeing the boost pressure you want to see, moreso with higher boost levels


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_If you just watch the boost gauge in *1st and 2nd*, you will *redline* before seeing the boost pressure you want to see, moreso with higher boost levels









Exactly why I haven't noticed it. The car only gets redlined in 1st and/or 2nd at the track on slicks and I'm too busy staring at the tach http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

im pretty sure it has 3.3 final but 3rd-6th are shorter. 4th tops out around 120mph at 7k. Ya money is tight for everyone in these days. You will loose a few seconds with the 24.5 for sure. Ill look into that boost controller thanks bud http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . I have a cf hood, cut up rebar to fit the intercooler, no spare and jack, ac deleted completely. I think the stock exhaust weighs alot more than what most of us are running so there are some weight savings in there. Weather is looking good for tomorrow


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (marat_g60)*

Tire size is always a tough call b/c there are so many variables. The smaller tire will multiply torque to the wheels. One of the reasons I trap 120mph w/ only 320whp. However, you must consider traction, your powerband, and gearing.
I can figure out shift points w/ a dyno graph, gear ratios, etc. Figuring out the ideal tire for each application is best done at the track IMO b/c there are so many variables. 
Seems like most have luck w/ 24.5's in the 400-500whp range.


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

Well just when I was ready to go I find out the oil ringlands are blown. Its been running lean sometimes which probably explains it. getting mad blowby out the pcv, even out the dipstick. has good compression which is why I think its the oil rings. Not sure what I wanna do now, replace the bottom end with a low mileage one and call it a day I guess. Thats its for the season I guess, In the spring I'll have 24.5's so everything will work out even better. As for the leaning out, maybe Jeff can richen up topend for me as thats where it goes lean from 6-7K


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