# Something burning



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I was using the Phaeton as my daily driver for most of the Spring, and then about two months ago I got a CEL on the way home from work and it started running rough. With a lot going on at the time, I didn't have time to deal with it so I parked it. A week ago, I got to the point that I had the time to dig into the issue. I started it up. (It idled pretty rough.) I went into the house for a minute and came back out it had died while idling. I tried restarting it but after one attempt it did not start. I tried again but the starter did not engage. Thinking the RH battery was dead from sitting, I tried charging the battery. Eventually it started and I was able to (barely) get it into the garage. Had the battery tested and confirmed it had a bad cell. The battery was approaching 8 years old, so I figured a new battery was in order.

I bought a new AGM Diehard (same spec as the LH battery as an upgrade) and then fully charged both batteries. Tonight I tried starting the car. It started and then died. Tried again and no start. At this point, I connected the LH battery to the battery maintainer and turned the ignition on to run a VCDS Autoscan. Near the end of the scan, I started smelling smoke. Popped the hood and saw smoke coming from under the right front corner of the intake manifold. See here: https://bit.ly/3i4mbSB) At this point, I turned off the ignition before doing any further damage.

I have the complete scan, but I'm not sure how helpful it will be since a lot of the codes are probably due to sitting so long with a probably-weak LH battery, but I'm posting it below anyway just in case.

I would like to clear the codes and rescan to see what codes remain, but don't want to do that when something is clearly burning. Any suggestions?

Sunday,06,September,2020,00:06:56:01901
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 20.4.2.0 (x64) HEX-V2 CB: 0.4513.4
Data version: 20200730 DS317.0
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WVWAH63D248007909 License Plate: 


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWAH63D248007909 Mileage: 192090km-119359miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C

12 Faults Found:
17950 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187) 
P1542 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1 
P0420 - 001 - Efficiency Below Threshold
16814 - Catalyst System; Bank 2 
P0430 - 001 - Efficiency Below Threshold
17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started - Intermittent
18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2 
P1923 - 008 - 
17579 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle Actuator (G188) Implausible Signal 
P1171 - 008 - - Intermittent
16891 - Idle Control System RPM 
P0507 - 001 - Higher than Expected.
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 008 - - Intermittent - MIL ON
16687 - Cylinder 3 
P0303 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent - MIL ON
16690 - Cylinder 6 
P0306 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent - MIL ON
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) 
P0322 - 004 - No Signal
17778 - Cylinder 6 Ignition Circuit 
P1370 - 004 - Open Circuit
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 3D0-927-156.lbl
Part No: 3D0 927 156 N
Component: AG5 01L 6.0 W12 USA 1114 
Coding: 0001102
Shop #: WSC 13622 410 403014
VCID: 33301643A7251E439F1-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 R
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0043 
Coding: 0008397
Shop #: WSC 06438 000 00000
VCID: 313C1C4B5D392C53EDD-51CE

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 M HW: 5WK 470 26
Component: Kessy 6400 
Coding: 0133356
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F381A334B0D3AA3FB9-5160

Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

2 Faults Found:
00165 - Switch for Transmission Position P/N 
010 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
00956 - Key 2 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass Labels: 3D0-959-759.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 759 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 BF 1501 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 3534285BA9510073B15-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 008 M
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0188 
Coding: 0500305
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2412E51F12CB89FB16B-5160

1 Fault Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 G
Component: Climatronic D1 1132 
Coding: 0000002
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 221EE30708DF87CB647-5160

2 Faults Found:
00716 - Air recirculation Flap Positioning Motor (V113) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001 
Coding: 0000002
Shop #: WSC 06442 444 59022
VCID: 2E0607374C0733ABF0F-5160

1 Fault Found:
00907 - Intervention load Management 
000 - -

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C

6 Faults Found:
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON
16692 - Cylinder 8 
P0308 - 008 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16693 - Cylinder 9 
P0309 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16694 - Cylinder 10 
P0310 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16695 - Cylinder 11 
P0311 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) 
P0322 - 004 - No Signal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 D
Component: 0A Airbag 8.4E+ H07 0934 
Coding: 0012353
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2412E51F12CB89FB16B-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 E
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000232
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F381A334B0D3AA3FB9-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 G
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0421 
Coding: 0007221
Shop #: WSC 03325 444 84671
VCID: 2B000E237F154683D71-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 03325 444 84671
VCID: 70BAD94F96B3655BA23-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 28: HVAC, Rear Labels: 3D0-919-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 158 F
Component: Klima-Bedienteil D1 0117 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2E0607374C0733ABF0F-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) X012 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6696BF17A477BBEBC8F-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 B
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C1V0 1101 
Coding: 0015501
Shop #: WSC 06438 444 84346
VCID: 2616FF1764F77BEB08F-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr Labels: 3D0-959-760.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 760 CA
Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1720 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 6FB8DA338B8D7AA3BB9-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 37: Navigation Labels: 3D0-919-887.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 887 A
Component: NAVIGATION 0147 
Coding: 0400000
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 323E1347583F174B947-5160

1 Fault Found:
00384 - Optical Databus 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 C
Component: Dachmodul 0708 
Coding: 0000015
Shop #: WSC 03325 444 70100
VCID: 2310E60317C58EC36F1-5160

1 Fault Found:
00220 - Connection to Sunroof 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) X012 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6788B213A37DA2E3F39-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 E
Component: 6P HSG 3211 
Coding: 0000040
Shop #: WSC 06438 444 84346
VCID: 323E1347583F174B947-4B00

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D1 959 701 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0104

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D1 959 702 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0104

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0104

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0104

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 3D0 909 610 B
Component: 3I HDSG 2320

Subsystem 6 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020

2 Faults Found:
01737 - Potentiometer for Mirror Adj. Vertical; Pass. Side 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00896 - Trunk Lock Unit (F256) 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 466 
Component: 12K-AUDIOVERST 0115 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 5F98AAF37B2DEA230B9-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 3D0 907 273 G
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0026 
Coding: 0410224
Shop #: WSC 06438 444 999999
VCID: 2A0E0B2770EF5F8B2C7-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 66: Seat, Rear Labels: None
Part No: 3D0 959 860 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 H 1513 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2E0607374C0733ABF0F-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: 3Dx-955-1xx-V1.clb
Part No: 3D1 955 119 
Component: Front Wiper 2005 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 6696BF17A477BBEBC8F-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 C
Component: Batteriemanagement 2700 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2310E60317C58EC36F1-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 75: Telematics Labels: 3D0-035-617.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 035 617 HW: 3D0 035 617 
Component: Telematik NAR1 0101 
Coding: 0061860
Shop #: WSC 03164 444 58989
VCID: 5DE490FB7121F833195-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 76: Park Assist Labels: None
Part No: 3D0 919 283 C
Component: 03 Einparkhilfe 0807 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2A0E0B2770EF5F8B2C7-5160

No fault code found.

End----(Elapsed Time: 06:49, VBatt start/end: 11.7V/11.5V. VIgn 0.0V)------


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

Hi.
I would look for the burn, It's bound to be easy to spot with that much smoke. I would also disconnect both batteries, just in case.

When you get rid of the fire risk, then you can proceed.

It's a little wierd, a fuse should have gone if it's electrical, but who knows. 

I'm not sure you can trust the scan, if the smoke is electrical.

Wiken 

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

On the W12, given the misfires, I would check the spark plugs to see if they're sitting in a pool of oil.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I wouldn't worry about the oil pools- I've had plenty of old VW with leaking oil seals.

The coil packs on the other hand can fail and catch on fire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYoXNWPAjIM


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

That smoke is coming from the general area of the oil separator. The right oil separator on 8486 was slimy with oil.

I popped the hose to it loose to try to gain room to maneuver my air box the last time I changed the right headlight bulb

If the oil separator hose connector is disconnected, oil can drip on the exhaust manifold. 

The oil separator is part of the PCV system so it's also going to have oil fumes rising from it if the hose isn't connected. 

See #6:

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/usa/phaeton/phae/2004-258/1/103-103090/

I would check the whole PCV system on that side. Maybe a rodent tasted a hose. 

I would fix it before starting the engine. You might be able to find the parts online. 

I was looking it up on the VWOA parts website (to see if I could find a better diagram) and they said it's no longer available but is on sale. 

https://parts.vw.com/p/54635508/07C103495G.html

Here's the meager sale list for Phaetons:

https://parts.vw.com/productSearch....ory=0&ukey_driveline=0&isOnSale=1&searchTerm=


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## Ceylon (May 15, 2019)

PowerDubs said:


> I wouldn't worry about the oil pools- I've had plenty of old VW with leaking oil seals.
> 
> The coil packs on the other hand can fail and catch on fire.
> 
> ...


That's pretty scary to see! Makes me glad I've got a dirty diesel :laugh:.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> That smoke is coming from the general area of the oil separator. The right oil separator on 8486 was slimy with oil.
> 
> I popped the hose to it loose to try to gain room to maneuver my air box the last time I changed the right headlight bulb
> 
> ...


I think this is a good suggestion. I've seen similar smoke from my V8 but in a totally different location, the source turned out to be a failed PCV.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Since the engine only (barely) ran for 60 seconds or so while I limped the car into the garage, it's not oil burning on the exhaust. To me the smell is electrical and is coming from where this group of wires goes under the manifold: https://bit.ly/32mHXvd

It is very tight in this area and I just can't see or reach anything past where those wires disappear. Although I dread having to do it, I think I have no choice but to pull the manifold. Those manifold bolts are not steel (maybe either titanium or aluminum) and are supposed to be one-time-use. Since I've already resused them once when I replaced my thermostat, I guess it's time to bite the bullet and order a new set.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

PowerDubs said:


> The coil packs on the other hand can fail and catch on fire.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYoXNWPAjIM





In case you missed this-


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

PowerDubs said:


> In case you missed this-


PowerDubs wins the prize! Pulled the upper manifold and just started sniffing around. It didn't take long before my nose guided me to this: https://bit.ly/2FqXFgb The coil pack on #3 was burning.

With the upper intake off the car, I am leaning toward replacing all the coil packs and spark plugs while I'm in there, especially after seeing that video. I know that at least some coil packs were replaced in 2009 (54,000) miles, and cannot tell for certain that the plugs were ever changed.

I'm already in for $633 so far (2 broken breather hoses at $184 a piece plus the 9 one-time-use magnesium bolts). I found the coil packs for around $25 each ($300 total) and NGK plugs for around $130. With shipping this should put me above $1,100 for this little project. I always knew owning a Phaeton would not be cheap, but geez...

Paul


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Glad you found it.

Glad your car didn't burn to the ground.

Use the latest new factory coil packs- no knock offs. It isn't worth the risk.

Use a tq wrench carefully on reasembly.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Both the BOSCH 0986221050 and NGK 48689 list that they are a replacement for VW 07C905715A which is the most recent revision of the coil pack. They both sell for around $28 compared to the VW part that sells for between $38 and $50 a piece. I feel pretty comfortable with the quality of either Bosch or NGK, and I don't really have the appetite to add another $140 to this already expensive repair.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You should be able to get VW to pay. I replaced mine before the recall, and when the recall was issued they sent me a check.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

PowerDubs said:


> Glad you found it.
> 
> Glad your car didn't burn to the ground.
> 
> ...


I had the manifold off once already to change the thermostat, but now for the life of me I can't find the torque values on those magnesium bolts. Anyone happen to know?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

invisiblewave said:


> You should be able to get VW to pay. I replaced mine before the recall, and when the recall was issued they sent me a check.


Thanks for that. I didn't even realize there was a recall. Anyway, I know VW treated Phaeton owners a little nicer than the rest, but this is a 16-year-old car with 110,000 miles and it's on its 3rd owner so I'm not sure it's worth the effort at this point. I've got all the brand new NGK coil packs and plugs ready to go. Just trying to find the time to put it all back together. I'm hopeful that this will put to bed the intermittent misfire CEL's I had been getting since I've owned the car.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I was also the third owner at fairly high mileage. I don't recall there being any effort involved, but I don't remember how they knew I'd already replaced them.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

It doesn't matter how old a car is or how many owners it had when it comes to safety recalls.


I went to the NHTSA recall page but they only go back 15 model years. 

Your VW dealer should be able to look up your VIN to see if it had the coil pack recall.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Wow-Burning coil pack caused damage*

As I started to clean up the cylinder head covers in preparing to install new coil packs and plugs, I was surprised to discover that the smoldering coil pack on #3 actually caused some melting at the very top lip of the bore. Pictures: https://bit.ly/2FM6Zvj and https://bit.ly/2FWos3O. I think the rubber seal may have enough give/flexibility to get past this area, and most of the sealing surface below it does not appear to be distorted at all. However, I may try to carefully Dremel some of it off to make insertion a bit easier. Based on this, it appears to me that this coil pack must have been failing for quite some time. The part number on the coils I just removed is 07C 905 715 A and they were replaced in December 2009. I am assuming that this was in response to the coil pack safety recall, right?

On another note, there was a little bit of oil pooled down at the base of the spark plug in Cyl 12. What could have caused this?

Finally, I wanted to share my idea for repairing the two cracked vent tubes that I'd like to reuse until my new ones make their way across the ocean from Germany. I bought some 1-1/2" diameter 2:1 shrink tube and cut a piece long enough for the entire hose. I taped the broken end on temporarily with some Scotch tape (just to keep it in place during the shrinking process). I chose clear shrink tube so that I could verify that it properly sealed against the tube at each end. I'm happy with the results. It formed a nice sturdy cover that seems to be holding pressure: https://bit.ly/3hFOhT6. I also bought some split heat shield material and slid it over the tube to replace the fabric fiberglass material that was originally on the tube. https://bit.ly/35Rj3pG. If anyone is interested in this solution, let me know and I'll post the links to the stuff I bought.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The pool of oil around the plug is due to the valve gaskets starting to fail. There's a seal around each plug.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

invisiblewave said:


> The pool of oil around the plug is due to the valve gaskets starting to fail. There's a seal around each plug.


It doesn't look like too bad of a job, now that I'm getting comfortable removing the upper manifold. Is there anything tricky about replacing the valve cover seals? In looking at the procedure, my only concern is that there does not appear to be a traditional valve cover gasket, but instead you apply sealant and assemble within 5 minutes. I'm very deliberate (especially with this car) and working quickly makes me nervous. I'd hate to go through all that work and wind up with a leak where the sealant was applied.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Now what?*

All new coil packs and plugs installed. Put everything back together. Bpth batteries fully charged. (The starter battery is a brand new upgraded AGM battery.) It cranked normally for about 3 seconds or so but did not start. Tried again. Starter engaged for a split second but did not crank. Tried again and nothing. Tried the emergency start procedure using the left battery. Again starter engaged and engine cranked briefly for maybe a second and stopped.

Before the misfiring issue (that turned out to be a smoldering #3 coil pack), I never had one problem starting the car in the three years I've owned it.

Any idea what's going on here?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Did you disconnect anything?

Did you remove the fuel pump relays?

Other than that, I'd start checking fuses starting with the fuel pump, ignition and Engine ECU fuses. I don't know if the coil packs have a separate fuse.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

In order to remove the upper intake manifold, I did disconnect the hoses and wires that ran to it, but I'm pretty sure everything is reconnected correctly, but I will double-check. I ran an Autoscan and I'm getting a code for "17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started - Intermittent ". Apparently from what I'm reading, any time you have the batteries disconnected, you need to run the adaptation. I'm not sure that can be causing this no-start issue, but it needs to be done nonetheless. I can't run it at the moment because the battery voltage is too low. (I thought I had my left battery on the battery maintainer while I was poking around VCDS but did not, so my left battery is low and is now recharging. :banghead

In the meantime, I'm going to take a break and reinstall my newly recovered headliner in my '05 Passat TDI wagon. 

Then I'll come back and look for blown fuses


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> In order to remove the upper intake manifold, I did disconnect the hoses and wires that ran to it, but I'm pretty sure everything is reconnected correctly, but I will double-check. I ran an Autoscan and I'm getting a code for "17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started - Intermittent ". Apparently from what I'm reading, any time you have the batteries disconnected, you need to run the adaptation. I'm not sure that can be causing this no-start issue, but it needs to be done nonetheless. I can't run it at the moment because the battery voltage is too low. (I thought I had my left battery on the battery maintainer while I was poking around VCDS but did not, so my left battery is low and is now recharging. :banghead
> 
> In the meantime, I'm going to take a break and reinstall my newly recovered headliner in my '05 Passat TDI wagon.
> 
> Then I'll come back and look for blown fuses


Checking for blown fuses would also be my next step. You have time to check fuses while the battery is charging. It should still start with a dead left battery. My left battery has been down to zero volts and my Phaeton started and drove fine. 

I have disconnected batteries plenty of times and never adapted anything except the windows. I only remember to adapt the windows when I use them. I would clear that fault, especially since it's intermittent. When my left battery is low, I get tons of intermittent faults - all over the map.

The W12 study guide says something about the camshaft timing needing to be readapted if you clear engine faults but in another section it says that a short idling session will re-adapt the cams. After I clear faults, I am always re-scanning it which is another 20 minutes or so of idling.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I ran an Autoscan and I'm getting a code for "17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started - Intermittent "


That fault could also be because the engine wasn't running. It can't adapt anything if it won't start. 

I have never run a scan for an engine problem with the engine not running. I have only run a few scans without the engine running and those were quick scans on specific controllers.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> It doesn't look like too bad of a job, now that I'm getting comfortable removing the upper manifold. Is there anything tricky about replacing the valve cover seals? In looking at the procedure, my only concern is that there does not appear to be a traditional valve cover gasket, but instead you apply sealant and assemble within 5 minutes. I'm very deliberate (especially with this car) and working quickly makes me nervous. I'd hate to go through all that work and wind up with a leak where the sealant was applied.


It's not too bad of a job now that you are not afraid of removing the intake. The RH side valve cover is a little tricky to get off because of clearance issues and some of the valve cover bolts are hard to get to (be careful not to round them off), otherwise a straight forward job. Valve cover gasket are normal rubber style and are available from VW and aftermarket from Victor Reinz. Here are a few part #s that I have used:

07C-103-483-C	Valve Cover Gasket, LH
07C-103-484-C	Valve Cover Gasket, RH
WHT-002-370	Valve Cover Mounting Bolt w/ rubber grommet
022-103-484-D	Spark Plug Tube Seal in valve cover
Aftermarket: Mahle/Victor Reinz GS33695 (6-Pack)
066-109-091-A	Camshaft Adjuster Valve Gasket in valve cover, I think 2 on each side
Aftermarket: Victor Reinz 813678900
N-904-608-01	Engine Oil Filler Tube O-Ring, 27x2.5
N-906-132-01	Crankcase Breather O-Ring, 18x2.5


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> That fault could also be because the engine wasn't running. It can't adapt anything if it won't start.
> 
> I have never run a scan for an engine problem with the engine not running. I have only run a few scans without the engine running and those were quick scans on specific controllers.


Right. I think that's a symptom, not a cause.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

After a tough week at work, I will finally have some time this weekend to try to get the Phaeton running again. I've been doing a lot of internet reading trying to determine a plan of attack. As several of you have suggested, it seems like the logical first place to look is at the fuse(s) for the fuel pump. So far, I've verified that both fuel-related fuses in the left trunk (Fuse 33, 5A, Fuel Pump Relay and Fuse 34, 20A, Fuel Pump) are good. Figuring that this seems likely a fueling problem, I also checked the two fuses for the fuel injectors located in the right plenum chamber (Fuse 1, 10A, Injectors 1-6 and Fuse 2, 10A, Injectors 7-12) as well as the two fuses for the coil packs (Fuse 22, 40A, coil packs 1-6 and Fuse 25, 40A, coil packs 7-12) and the fuse for the two ECM's fuse (Fuse 10, 10A). All fuses are good.

Even though I checked and double-checked every connection before replacing the upper intake with that $100 set of one-time-use Mg bolts, I can't shake that nagging thought that maybe I didn't connect something correctly. Could it possibly be a cam position sensor? The few times in my life when there was a cam position sensor issue, the engine wouldn't start at all which is what I'm experiencing currently. 

I just double-checked fitment for the coil packs and plugs on the NGK website, and both are correct. As a matter of fact the plugs I removed were NGK with the VW logo and looked exactly like the ones I installed. The new coil packs had the same VW part number as the ones I removed.

It's 1:30AM and time to call it a day. Any suggestions on where to look next when I start tomorrow morning (actually this morning)?


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

A quick non-scientific way of checking the primary fuel pump is to unlock the car and open the driver's door which will trigger the primary fuel pump to run for about 3 seconds to prime the fuel rail. You can actually hear the pump if the surrounding area is quiet. 

However if a dead primary fuel pump would be the issue then the engine typically runs for a few seconds before it dies because on start-up the secondary fuel pump runs for a few seconds.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> A quick non-scientific way of checking the primary fuel pump is to unlock the car and open the driver's door which will trigger the primary fuel pump to run for about 3 seconds to prime the fuel rail. You can actually hear the pump if the surrounding area is quiet.
> 
> However if a dead primary fuel pump would be the issue then the engine typically runs for a few seconds before it dies because on start-up the secondary fuel pump runs for a few seconds.


Thanks. I actually attempted that tonight but some other motor comes on in the passenger compartment (not sure which one) that prevents my old ears from hearing any sound from the engine compartment. I will enlist the help of an assistant and try again with my ear close to the fuel pump.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*No Sound from Fuel Pump*

So when you unlock and then open the driver's side door, the headlight adjusting motors (or whatever you call them) activate and were preventing me from hearing anything else in the engine compartment, so I pulled their fuses and tried again. I'm not hearing any noise whatsoever coming from the engine compartment. I even put a stethoscope on one of the fuel lines. No sound that I can hear. I assume it should be fairly easy to hear (maybe like the lift pump on my BHW TDI?). Does this definitively point to the fuel pump?

If so, I have some questions.

First and most importantly, does the W12 have a single fuel pump or two fuel pumps? There is a single fuse for "Fuel Pump"; however there are two Fuel Pump Relays (5a - J17 - Fuel Pump (FP) Relay (404) and 6b - J49 - Fuel Pump (FP) 2 Relay (404)). I can swear I read not long ago that there is one fuel pump that feeds both banks of cylinders but that each bank has its own regulator to control flow to that bank. However, when I search for a W12 fuel pump on a VW parts website, it lists a left and a right. If there are indeed two pumps, I think it would be highly unlikely that they both failed at the exact same time but I guess anything is possible.

Ideas?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

There are two pumps. If the primary has failed, it may well prevent the car from starting. It's simple to check though, just pull the relay and it'll run on the secondary pump instead.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

invisiblewave said:


> There are two pumps. If the primary has failed, it may well prevent the car from starting. It's simple to check though, just pull the relay and it'll run on the secondary pump instead.


Isn't it designed to do that anyway? In other words, if the primary is dead won't it switch to the secondary to start? Is the secondary a backup or do they normally work in tandem?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

No. The secondary isn't a backup.

This is from the self study guide as reproduced in the Fuel Pump thread:

"The Secondary pump, Fuel Pump G6, is turned on either when starting the engine, to achieve a quicker pressure build-up if the fuel tank has less than 5.3 Gallons (20 liters), or if there is a high engine load and engine speed."

It goes on to say that if one pump dies you won't achieve top performance. 

Michael experienced surging so he put a rubber band on his secondary pump relay to force it on. That turned out to be unneeded. 

You can read all about it in the thread, but I'll give you the Cliff Notes version (in post #33):

Remove the primary fuel pump relay and that forces the secondary pump to step up and take over (as invisiblewave pointed out). 

I don't know if that will help you but that's the easiest way to force the secondary pump to come on.

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6899103


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> Thanks. I actually attempted that tonight but some other motor comes on in the passenger compartment (not sure which one) that prevents my old ears from hearing any sound from the engine compartment. I will enlist the help of an assistant and try again with my ear close to the fuel pump.


The fuel pumps are in the fuel tank so you'll need to listen at the back and underneath the car, they are definitely noticeable and I can hear it even while standing next to the driver door when opening it. I'm not sure if they are triggered only by opening the driver's door or with any door.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Michael experienced surging so he put a rubber band on his secondary pump relay to force it on. That turned out to be unneeded.


That's a quick way to trigger a fuel pump to run with the engine off. Just carefully pop the cover off the relay and put a rubber band on the relay to close it or do it by hand for a few seconds.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Maybe not a bad fuel pump?*

I removed the relay for the primary fuel pump and again tried to start the car. The starter cranks completely normally for maybe 4-5 seconds and then stops. I turn the key back to the ignition on position and attempt to run the starter again and there is no response whatsoever. It doesn't crank at all, almost like something is shutting off the power to the starter completely. The emergency start procedure (turn key all the way counter clockwise and then clockwise again) produces no response at all from the starter. I removed the key and tried starting again and there is again no response from the starter. 

I think there may be something else going on other than a bad fuel pump. Could this be KESSY-related? Is it possible that the KESSY would allow the starter to crank but maybe not supply voltage to the fuel pumps in order to prevent it from starting? What could be causing the starter to only run one time and then not run on further attempts? Is there anything I can look for in VCDS that might help me figure this out?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> That fault could also be because the engine wasn't running. It can't adapt anything if it won't start.
> 
> I have never run a scan for an engine problem with the engine not running. I have only run a few scans without the engine running and those were quick scans on specific controllers.


I'm coming back to the Throttle Actuator code. Turns out in this case, you can (and should) adapt the throttle bodies with the ignition on but the engine not running. I've read that on the Ross Tech website as well as saw a couple YouTube videos of the procedure. I confirmed this by going into ECU2 and running the adaptation for that throttle body. When I click on "ON/OFF/Next", I hear some noise from the engine compartment and the display switches to ADP-RUN and then goes back to ADP-OK. 

Until I hopefully get some responses to the starter questions above, it may make sense to dig into this issue (check wires and/or swap the two to see of the problem is the actual throttle body or the wiring/controls leading up to it). It may not be preventing the car from starting, but I suppose I'll need to address it at some point before long anyway.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

If the starter won't turn, that could be the KESSY.

I just happen to have my boat anchor XP laptop open to the Measured Value Blocks for Phaeton Access/Start authorization.

The KESSY is address 5 in VCDS.

If you go to Measured Value Blocks you can check its status. 

You can scroll up and down to check them all. According to the Bentley, there are 29.

Display Group 6 shows if your key is synchronized among other things. 

Display Group 22 sows if the Start Procedure is authorized. 

Display Group 23 shows if the authorization is OK.



The only starter troubleshooting in the Bentley manual has the tech go through the guided fault finding. This Bentley manual was not made for shade tree mechanics.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> If the starter won't turn, that could be the KESSY.
> 
> I just happen to have my boat anchor XP laptop open to the Measured Value Blocks for Phaeton Access/Start authorization.
> 
> ...


The starter turns. Once. It turns for a while and then stops, and will not immediately turn again. Wait a while (15-30 minutes) and it will turn again. Once. It turns long enough to start the car under normal circumstances. But no sound from the fuel pump combined with a no-start leads me to believe something else is preventing the no-start.

One of the scans I initially did showed a "16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) P0322 - 004 - No Signal". (I cleared the fault and haven't seen it come back yet.) From what I am reading, a no signal from the engine speed sensor will still allow the car to run if running, but it will not allow it to restart. My question is how does it prevent the car from restarting? Perhaps cutting off power to the fuel pump(s) and/or limiting the function of the starter? I can't seem to find any explanation of what specifically is done to prevent the start.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Are you absolutely 110% sure you have 2 good charges batteries?

Meaning- do you own a battery tester?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

PowerDubs said:


> Are you absolutely 110% sure you have 2 good charges batteries?
> 
> Meaning- do you own a battery tester?
> 
> ...


No I do not own a tester. However LH battery is AGM (2 yrs old) and holds a charge. I keep it on a battery maintainer regularly because the Phaeton isn't my DD. Starter battery is also AGM (3 weeks old) and I have fully charged it since purchase. The starter turns quickly, not sluggish in the least. I'm done for the night but I'll check both voltages with a MM tomorrow night.

Are you thinking this could be battery-related? How would that be?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If you saw the speed sensor code, I would change it. When mine failed, that code only showed once. After clearing it, there were other errors, but that one never came back. When it fails, it's gradual, and it's temperature-related, the engine will initially start when cold, but eventually it will fail altogether.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

invisiblewave said:


> If you saw the speed sensor code, I would change it.


I will take your advice and change it. That was my thought. Let me ask another question. When you go to start your car, does the tach move immediately when you engage the starter and the engine begins to turn? I checked last night. When the starter is running, the tach stats at 0 and doesn't budge. Wondering whethrr or not that points to a no signal condition from the engine speed sensor.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I had the same thought when mine failed, because that's the definitive diagnostic test on my Porsche. On the Phaeton, I don't believe you can tell that way because the instruments are electronic, the tach doesn't move anyway until the engine starts.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Does anyone know the p/n for the engine speed sensor? I can't seem to find it on 7zap in either the Engine or Electrics section and a search for engine speed sensor on vw parts sites brings up dozens of hits. None of them seem to be the correct part. If not I am hoping I can pull the one off my car and look for a part number on it. Is it, by chance the crankshaft position sensor (07D-906-433)? I found that part in a Google search for engine speed sensor.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, same thing. It's generally not easy to get to because it sits on the bell housing for the flywheel. I know where it is on the V8, but not on the W12.


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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

richmondvatdi said:


> Does anyone know the p/n for the engine speed sensor? I can't seem to find it on 7zap in either the Engine or Electrics section and a search for engine speed sensor on vw parts sites brings up dozens of hits. None of them seem to be the correct part. If not I am hoping I can pull the one off my car and look for a part number on it. Is it, by chance the crankshaft position sensor (07D-906-433)? I found that part in a Google search for engine speed sensor.


https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen__/CRANKSHAFT-POSITION-SENSOR/54163104/077905381L.html


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> Does anyone know the p/n for the engine speed sensor? I can't seem to find it on 7zap in either the Engine or Electrics section and a search for engine speed sensor on vw parts sites brings up dozens of hits. None of them seem to be the correct part. If not I am hoping I can pull the one off my car and look for a part number on it. Is it, by chance the crankshaft position sensor (07D-906-433)? I found that part in a Google search for engine speed sensor.


I took a quick look in the Bentley Manual but I can't find a crankshaft position sensor. I did find the camshaft position sensors (VW calls it Hall Sender). There's a total of 4, one for each camshaft.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I think I have the correct p/n. Now it's time to crawl underneath this beast to find it. Just hoping it's not a $5,000 engine-out to replace a $100 sensor.

This guy found his, but can you tell from the video whether this is a V8 or W12? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6Mr9e_lnU

UPDATE: In reading the comments on the video, it's a V8. Still haven't found anything on the Internet about where it is on the W12.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

On the V8, it's positioned on top of the bell housing, you can't see it from underneath. Why don't you simply call the parts department and ask them? They're usually pretty good at looking up parts.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

invisiblewave said:


> On the V8, it's positioned on top of the bell housing, you can't see it from underneath. Why don't you simply call the parts department and ask them? They're usually pretty good at looking up parts.


Hmmm. Interesting. So you don't think the A8 in the video I linked is a V8? The sensor he points to is above the axle at about the 11 o'clock position.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

I need a car rug like that 🙃


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

richmondvatdi said:


> Hmmm. Interesting. So you don't think the A8 in the video I linked is a V8? The sensor he points to is above the axle at about the 11 o'clock position.


I don't know. On the Phaeton V8, you can see the sensor by looking vertically down behind the cylinder head, near the plenum area. There's a thread somewhere about replacing it from underneath, but I don't believe you can actually see it directly, or at least not easily.


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## Ceylon (May 15, 2019)

The crank sensor or engine speed sensor (G28) on the W12 sits in the bell housing of the transmission :thumbup:.

It reads the teeth off the converter plate.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Thanks. Hopefully I can get to it without removing the transmission!


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> Thanks. Hopefully I can get to it without removing the transmission!


No wonder I couldn't find the crank sensor in the engine chapter of the manual, but it's not in the transmission chapter either. Anyway, looks like it's hiding out on the LH side of the bellhousing. 

Here's a photo of it, it's hiding behind the heat shield of the cat. Those heat shields are pretty flexible, you should be able to remove the nut and bend it out of the way. In this photo I had the subframe removed as well as the axle and the heat shield of the axle. With everything in place you should still be able to get from it from below and inboard of the subframe. Luckily there is more space on the LH side.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

That looks shockingly simple to get to!


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## Ceylon (May 15, 2019)

invisiblewave said:


> That looks shockingly simple to get to!


The subframe will be in the way so it wont be quite as nice as in that pic but it'll be accessible without too much hassle.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Had to do an oil change on one of the W12s today so I took a photo of that area with everything in place. It doesn't look too bad. The stud that the heat shield attaches to is also what mounts that sensor to the bellhousing. This should be easy on a lift, a little harder if you have the car on jack stands.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Update*

Got the sensor out of the bell housing. It's a PITA. Because of the tight space (like every W12 project) you only have about 10° of range to turn the 10mm open end wrench and you need to do it using only your fingertips. And naturally it's a way-too-long fine pitch thread so you have to do it about 1,000 times. But that was the easy part.

Getting the connector off is proving to be much more difficult. The connector is similar to the ones on the fuel injectors. Push the center in until it clicks and locks in place, then pull the connector off. Easy, right? In theory, yes. Except the connector just will not release. I've tried putting a screw driver between the sensor and connector and twisting, but it won't budge. Also tried drilling a small hole in the sensor adjacent to the connector and using a straight o-ring pick in the hole as a lever to push the connector away from the sensor. Again it will not budge. Walking away for a while because I'm afraid I'll break the connector or break a wire going to it, which would be bad.

UPDATE: Got the connector off and got the new sensor in place, but a new problem has arisen. The connector will not lock onto the sensor. I push the connector on to the sensor and when it gets to what seems to be a fully-seated position, the center portion that is pushed in pops up and makes an audible "snap" like it is supposed to, but if you tug on the connector the slightest bit, it comes off. I've tried it several times. It takes a lot of effort to get the connector all the way on until it snaps, but each time it fails to lock. Since the sensor is up and the connector wire is hanging down and this is a sensor that we know will cause the car not to run, I feel like I need to make sure it's done properly. Looks like the p/n is 07D906433, which is available in several places online for under $30. So now it's another one-week order-and-wait cycle.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> UPDATE: Got the connector off and got the new sensor in place, but a new problem has arisen. The connector will not lock onto the sensor. I push the connector on to the sensor and when it gets to what seems to be a fully-seated position, the center portion that is pushed in pops up and makes an audible "snap" like it is supposed to, but if you tug on the connector the slightest bit, it comes off. I've tried it several times. It takes a lot of effort to get the connector all the way on until it snaps, but each time it fails to lock. Since the sensor is up and the connector wire is hanging down and this is a sensor that we know will cause the car not to run, I feel like I need to make sure it's done properly. Looks like the p/n is 07D906433, which is available in several places online for under $30. So now it's another one-week order-and-wait cycle.


Do you have terminal release tools?

ECS Tuning has a few different sets. I have one of the sets and it's relatively inexpensive but you do have to finagle them to get the terminals to release. They are way better than using jewelers screwdrivers though. 

I also have some really expensive terminal release tools I bought overseas. That set is either not made any more or is not available in the U.S. I think they may be the ones VW has in its set. 

I will get you links to the ECS and VW terminal tools but they are on the other laptop.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

richmondvatdi said:


> Got the sensor out of the bell housing. It's a PITA. Because of the tight space (like every W12 project) you only have about 10° of range to turn the 10mm open end wrench and you need to do it using only your fingertips. And naturally it's a way-too-long fine pitch thread so you have to do it about 1,000 times. But that was the easy part.
> 
> Getting the connector off is proving to be much more difficult. The connector is similar to the ones on the fuel injectors. Push the center in until it clicks and locks in place, then pull the connector off. Easy, right? In theory, yes. Except the connector just will not release. I've tried putting a screw driver between the sensor and connector and twisting, but it won't budge. Also tried drilling a small hole in the sensor adjacent to the connector and using a straight o-ring pick in the hole as a lever to push the connector away from the sensor. Again it will not budge. Walking away for a while because I'm afraid I'll break the connector or break a wire going to it, which would be bad.
> 
> UPDATE: Got the connector off and got the new sensor in place, but a new problem has arisen. The connector will not lock onto the sensor. I push the connector on to the sensor and when it gets to what seems to be a fully-seated position, the center portion that is pushed in pops up and makes an audible "snap" like it is supposed to, but if you tug on the connector the slightest bit, it comes off. I've tried it several times. It takes a lot of effort to get the connector all the way on until it snaps, but each time it fails to lock. Since the sensor is up and the connector wire is hanging down and this is a sensor that we know will cause the car not to run, I feel like I need to make sure it's done properly. Looks like the p/n is 07D906433, which is available in several places online for under $30. So now it's another one-week order-and-wait cycle.


I actually ordered this set from Deutsche Auto Parts: https://www.shopdap.com/werkzeug-usa-wkz-term3pc.html along with the part itself (Genuine VW). I've ordered a bunch of stuff from these guys over the years and have always really good luck.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Do you have terminal release tools?
> 
> ECS Tuning has a few different sets. I have one of the sets and it's relatively inexpensive but you do have to finagle them to get the terminals to release. They are way better than using jewelers screwdrivers though.
> 
> ...


Here is the Schwaben set I got from ECS Tuning. You do have to finagle the terminals more than with the Stahlwille tools: 

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwabe...ectrical-terminal-tool-kit-12-pieces/ce-70-2/

Here is another set they have:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-cta-tools-parts/26-pc-terminal-tool-kit/cta9812~cta/

And another Schwaben set:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben-parts/23-piece-terminal-tool-kit/029009sch01a/

I use a tool to remove those connectors now. 

Sometimes the connectors pop right off, but they often stick even when you use the tool. At least with the tool you don't damage the connector.

This is the tool I got to remove those @$%#*^@O#!! connectors:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben-parts/vag-connector-removal-tool/002916sch01a/

Here is the Stahlwille tool page. Kabelex is their line of terminal (pin) tools. I think they were less expensive when I bought mine:

https://www.samstagsales.com/stahlwille.htm#electrical

The VW set I have is the 1510. The U.S. distributer says they can order it but don't show the price:

https://www.samstagsales.com/vwaudi.htm

Hers is the VW electrical tool page. The wiring tools start with VAS1978:

https://vw.snapon.com/Search.aspx?searchLink=false&keyword=vas1978

This is the Wiring Harness Repair Set the VW dealer is supposed to have (minimum requirement):

https://vw.snapon.com/SpecialToolsDetail.aspx?itemId=23780163


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I actually ordered this set from Deutsche Auto Parts: https://www.shopdap.com/werkzeug-usa-wkz-term3pc.html along with the part itself (Genuine VW). I've ordered a bunch of stuff from these guys over the years and have always really good luck.


I must have been typing when you posted this. Thanks for posting it. I can always use another source for parts and tools. 

Those should work well. The left tool seems to be the size I use the most. The right tool looks like it has the same "bit" (for lack of a better term) as the connector tool I got.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

UPDATE: After 7 weeks of chaotic life, I finally had some time this past weekend to do some more penance required of all Phaeton owners. I replaced the engine speed sensor plug (the connector tool set from shopdap.com worked great) and the engine speed sensor and still no start, even after clearing codes (both Engine-I and Engine-II) several times. At the end of this post are a couple partial scans (engine only) to get a flavor for what VCDS is reporting.

The strange thing is that the "16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) P0322 - 004 - No Signal" keeps reappearing, even with a brand new sensor and plug. I did check continuity between the pins and the wire about 6" back from the plug in case I messed up my repinning but everything checked out fine.

The other area that is troubling is the appearance of the Throttle Actuator codes. For those of you who have been torturing yourselves by following my odyssey, you know that this all started with a rough running engine. I was barely able to start it and drive it into the garage and I discovered a failed/smoking/burning coil pack. I pulled the intake manifold and changed all 12 plugs and coil packs. The no-start problem began when I first tried to restart it after putting it all back together.

I find it very difficult to believe that the no-start condition and the appearance of all these throttle actuator and speed sensor codes are unrelated to the job of removing the intake manifold and replacing the glow plugs and coil packs. It all seems way too coincidental.

Should I pull the intake manifold off again and see if there is something obviously wrong (plug disconnected, etc.)? Once that manifold is in place, it's impossible to see down in there. (The only reason I'm hesitant is because it's another $100 or so to replace those TTY magnesium bolts.)

SCANS:

Sunday,22,November,2020,11:32:04:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.4.2 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C
Fault Codes have been Erased

3 Faults Found:
17966 - Throttle Actuator (G186) 
P1558 - 002 - Electrical Malfunction
17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started
17953 - Throttle Valve Controller 
P1545 - 008 - Malfunction

Readiness: 0110 1001

Sunday,22,November,2020,11:33:24:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.4.2 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C
5 Faults Found:

17976 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1568 - 001 - Mechanical Failure
17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started
17953 - Throttle Valve Controller 
P1545 - 008 - Malfunction - Intermittent
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) 
P0322 - 004 - No Signal
18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2 
P1923 - 008 - 

Readiness: 0110 1001

Sunday,22,November,2020,11:34:01:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.4.2 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C
1 Fault Found:

16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) 
P0322 - 004 - No Signal


Sunday,22,November,2020,15:07:19:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.4.2 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C
Fault Codes have been Erased

3 Faults Found:
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer 
P1570 - 008 - 
17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started
17953 - Throttle Valve Controller 
P1545 - 008 - Malfunction

Readiness: 0110 1001

Sunday,22,November,2020,15:13:55:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.4.2 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C
Fault Codes have been Erased

1 Fault Found:
17976 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1568 - 001 - Mechanical Failure

Readiness: 0110 1001

Sunday,22,November,2020,15:21:22:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.4.2 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3015-513C
2 Faults Found:

17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
P1579 - 001 - Adaptation Not Started
17953 - Throttle Valve Controller 
P1545 - 008 - Malfunction

Readiness: 0110 1001


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Not sure what to make of the codes but if you want to check the wiring on the coil packs you can take the two side parts of the intake manifold off. You are going to have to disconnect the intake air elbows and some other stuff and then just remove the large torx bolt at front and back (be very careful not to round it off!). The gaskets used between the sides and the center manifold are reusable (rubber on a metal shim). Btw, the manual does not require the magnesium intake mounting bolts to be replaced so technically they are not TTY as far as I understand it. 

I'd also check the wiring that goes to the throttle actuators, maybe the plugs are not fully seated when you reconnected them or the smoldering coilpack damaged the wiring back at the throttle actuators?!


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> UPDATE: After 7 weeks of chaotic life, I finally had some time this past weekend to do some more penance required of all Phaeton owners. I replaced the engine speed sensor plug (the connector tool set from shopdap.com worked great) and the engine speed sensor and still no start, even after clearing codes (both Engine-I and Engine-II) several times. At the end of this post are a couple partial scans (engine only) to get a flavor for what VCDS is reporting.
> 
> The strange thing is that the "16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28) P0322 - 004 - No Signal" keeps reappearing, even with a brand new sensor and plug. I did check continuity between the pins and the wire about 6" back from the plug in case I messed up my repinning but everything checked out fine.
> 
> ...


Do you have a Bentley manual? Check the continuity to the other end. I don't know if there is a fuse for that but I'd check fuses also. I would post a link to the fuse thread but this forum redo sucks.

Are the bolts actually torque to yield?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Do you have a Bentley manual? Check the continuity to the other end. I don't know if there is a fuse for that but I'd check fuses also. I would post a link to the fuse thread but this forum redo sucks.
> 
> Are the bolts actually torque to yield?


I don't have the Bentley manual for the Phaeton, but it's probably time to acquire one. I'd like to be able to check continuity to the opposite end. If the throttle actuator and engine speed sensor share a common wiring harness, I guess it's possible that the smoldering coil pack could have damaged those wires.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Not sure what to make of the codes but if you want to check the wiring on the coil packs you can take the two side parts of the intake manifold off. You are going to have to disconnect the intake air elbows and some other stuff and then just remove the large torx bolt at front and back (be very careful not to round it off!). The gaskets used between the sides and the center manifold are reusable (rubber on a metal shim). Btw, the manual does not require the magnesium intake mounting bolts to be replaced so technically they are not TTY as far as I understand it.
> 
> I'd also check the wiring that goes to the throttle actuators, maybe the plugs are not fully seated when you reconnected them or the smoldering coilpack damaged the wiring back at the throttle actuators?!


You may be right about the magnesium bolts not being TTY. The online parts catalog usually says "replace" next to any fasteners that are single use and on these it does not and the Workshop Manual that I have (pdf format) doesn't even show those 8 bolts. When I replaced my MAP controlled thermostat a year or so ago, I definitely remember reading somewhere (of course after I had completed the job) that they were single use. That's why I ordered them ahead of time when I pulled the manifold this time. The ones in there now have only one use anyway so I think I will reuse them if I wind up pulling the manifold back off.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I don't have the Bentley manual for the Phaeton, but it's probably time to acquire one. I'd like to be able to check continuity to the opposite end. If the throttle actuator and engine speed sensor share a common wiring harness, I guess it's possible that the smoldering coil pack could have damaged those wires.


You would have to buy in on eBay or elsewhere now because Bentley Publishers no longer sells it. It has to be registered to use it and I don't know if they will still allow that. You also have to have an XP or Windows 2000 PC, laptop or tablet to use it. It will load on a VM in Windows 7, but printing it out from the VM sucks. I couldn't get two pages in a row to print that way. I had to adjust pages each time and print out several copies of the same page to get one readable page, then I had to repeat the process with the next page. I finally bought an XP Laptop anchor on eBay and it prints out the entire section without incident.

I have not found a better manual - yet, but have seen manuals on eBay from Europe or England that I'd like to try. If they copy the factory manual like Bentley does, they would be good also.


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

The pdf version of the Erwin manual is readily available and is pretty much the same as the Bentley Publishers version. I think invisiblewave is hosting one version.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> You may be right about the magnesium bolts not being TTY. The online parts catalog usually says "replace" next to any fasteners that are single use and on these it does not and the Workshop Manual that I have (pdf format) doesn't even show those 8 bolts. When I replaced my MAP controlled thermostat a year or so ago, I definitely remember reading somewhere (of course after I had completed the job) that they were single use. That's why I ordered them ahead of time when I pulled the manifold this time. The ones in there now have only one use anyway so I think I will reuse them if I wind up pulling the manifold back off.


The Bentley manual probably says that also, but it says that about all fasteners. I think it's a liability boilerplate for dealers. They can't use the excuse that a fastener was fine if they don't replace a critical fastener if the factory manual says to replace all fasteners.

The head bolts on my '88 Scirocco are triple-square stretch bolts that you torque down then turn another 1/4 turn. Those need to be replaced each time. I guess VW went to those around the mid-80s. They weren't like that on my '78 Scirocco. When I pulled the head on my used '79 Audi 4000 in 1990 or so, the parts guy sold me the triple-square stretch bolts. When the rebuilt head still had the same problem, I had to buy another complete set of head bolts along with the second head gasket in a week. ARP makes replacements that can be reused.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> The pdf version of the Erwin manual is readily available and is pretty much the same as the Bentley Publishers version. I think invisiblewave is hosting one version.


I downloaded that version and it is helpful for most stuff but I didn't see wiring diagrams in it. I might not have been looking in the right area but the rest of it duplicates the official VW (AKA Bentley) version.


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I downloaded that version and it is helpful for most stuff but I didn't see wiring diagrams in it. I might not have been looking in the right area but the rest of it duplicates the official VW (AKA Bentley) version.


The pdf with the wiring diagrams is there but that file was mislabeled, I think the file name wrongly said something with the W12 engine. Look for the large file and you should find it.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> The pdf with the wiring diagrams is there but that file was mislabeled, I think the file name wrongly said something with the W12 engine. Look for the large file and you should find it.





Phaetonlvr said:


> The pdf with the wiring diagrams is there but that file was mislabeled, I think the file name wrongly said something with the W12 engine. Look for the large file and you should find it.


Thanks. Found it under:
K0058955020-5-Speed_automatic_gearbox_for_6_0_l_309_kW__engine_code_BAN__from_May_2002


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Thanks. Found it under:
> K0058955020-5-Speed_automatic_gearbox_for_6_0_l_309_kW__engine_code_BAN__from_May_2002


This is a HUGE find. Thank you. I never would have thought to look there for wiring diagrams. All my codes relate to the Engine Speed Sender (G28) and the Throttle Actuator (J338) and both of them appear on on the same Current Flow Diagram (No. 79 /113). They both go to the same (T60) 60-pin connector on the ECU. I might be making some progress. Once I complete my honey-do Christmas decorating list, I might have some time to investigate this.  Fingers crossed. Stay tuned.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> This is a HUGE find. Thank you. I never would have thought to look there for wiring diagrams. All my codes relate to the Engine Speed Sender (G28) and the Throttle Actuator (J338) and both of them appear on on the same Current Flow Diagram (No. 79 /113). They both go to the same (T60) 60-pin connector on the ECU. I might be making some progress. Once I complete my honey-do Christmas decorating list, I might have some time to investigate this.  Fingers crossed. Stay tuned.


I didn't think to look there either. The place they are supposed to be has no wiring diagrams.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

richmondvatdi said:


> This is a HUGE find. Thank you. I never would have thought to look there for wiring diagrams. All my codes relate to the Engine Speed Sender (G28) and the Throttle Actuator (J338) and both of them appear on on the same Current Flow Diagram (No. 79 /113). They both go to the same (T60) 60-pin connector on the ECU. I might be making some progress. Once I complete my honey-do Christmas decorating list, I might have some time to investigate this.  Fingers crossed. Stay tuned.


So did we lose the ability to edit a post in the new format? Nevermind. It's up there in the three dots in the upper right corner of the post...


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

So have any of you actually put your hands on the ECU's in a W12? Are they under the cover of the black box below? If that's where they are, they are buried underneath all of those bundles of wires in a very tight area just in front of the windshield and right next to that fusebox on the passenger's side. I'm thinking the only way to remove that cover is to get all those big wiring harnesses out of the way which means disconnecting all those connectors and trying to move them out of the way, right? That does not look like fun.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes that's were the two ECUs are located, I think the transmission controller is in front and the 2 ECUs behind it. I've never removed them myself on the W12 but 73blazer recently did, check out his thread at w12 overheating. He mentions it somewhere on the last three pages of the thread.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I’ve removed both of them before on Dennis’s old W12. I remember it being a pita.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

PowerDubs said:


> I’ve removed both of them before on Dennis’s old W12. I remember it being a pita.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I fully expect it to be a PITA. Even removing the windshield wiper arms doesn't look like much fun...


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> I fully expect it to be a PITA. Even removing the windshield wiper arms doesn't look like much fun...


That's actually pretty straight forwards. Pop the plastic cap off the nut and then use a large pair of adjustable pliers to carefully pop the wiper arm off but use something to protect the arm from being scratched.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I'm definitely making progress. Does anyone know which ECU (ECU1 J623, or ECU2 J624) is the forward-most (i.e. closest to the bumper)?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Smoking Gun?

I finally got the first, forwardmost ECU out and found something very interesting. Pins 82-97 definitely do not look normal. They appear to have some sort of gunk or corrosion. You can see how nasty they look in comparison to pins 98-113 on the right hand side of the picture.









Looking at the connector reveals the same thing. Left-Nasty. Right clean.









So I painstakingly went through the electrical diagrams and matched the pin to the corresponding component for these 16 pins and below is a summary:









Then I went back and looked at all the scans I've done since replacing the coil packs and highlighted the ones that have been throwing codes. Not every code was the same for every scan, but apparently there is enough crap on these pin connections to cause intermittent faults. Or is it possible that the opposite happened? That these corroded connections instead caused the problem with the coil pack?

The burning coil pack was on Bank 1 and all the codes are appearing on ECU1. This also explains why these seemingly-unrelated components are all-of-a-sudden throwing codes at the same time. When the coil pack grenaded, it must have caused enough of a voltage surge to cause this mess in this particular part of the harness.

Now what? I peeled away the cloth tape where the harness enters the connector. The wires show no signs of any melting and do not look discolored. There is no burned smell on either the wires, the female connector, or the male pins on the ECU. Is it possible that a good shot of DeoxIT D5 contact cleaner and some compressed air will give me my car back (finally) or is that too much to hope for?


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Excellent work!! I'm no electrical expert but I would probably give it a shot of DeoxIT to get it clean enough to reconnect the connector and test if the car runs. Then afterwards you could do a deep cleaning of the pins by de-pinning them but that's tedious work and you need the right tool for that.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Excellent work!! I'm no electrical expert but I would probably give it a shot of DeoxIT to get it clean enough to reconnect the connector and test if the car runs. Then afterwards you could do a deep cleaning of the pins by de-pinning them but that's tedious work and you need the right tool for that.


I just ordered another can of DeoxIT D5 Cleaner and also a can of DeoxIT S5 Shield. The S5 is a protector and lubricant you're supposed to use after cleaning the contacts. Because that connector is outside of the passenger compartment and a royal pita to get to, the S5 Shield may prolong the interval before I have to do it again.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

SUCCESS! Cleaned the connector out (both sides) with DeoxIT and a few blasts of compressed air and then gave it a shot of the S5 sealant stuff. I put it all back together and after 5 months it started immediately on the first try. No codes. This was a serious challenge. Thanks to all of you who helped. I can't thank you enough.


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

That's the post we all were waiting for!! Congrats on figuring it out and getting the W12 back on the road!


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> That's the post we all were waiting for!! Congrats on figuring it out and getting the W12 back on the road!


I just wonder how many of our multitude of fault codes are caused by imperfect connections within the electrical system. Really this electrical system is more like a computer network, and computer networks like consistent voltages.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I just wonder how many of our multitude of fault codes are caused by imperfect connections within the electrical system. Really this electrical system is more like a computer network, and computer networks like consistent voltages.


I cleared up some intermittent running problems on my '93 Corrado using the same method on the big round connector in the engine compartment. A previous owner (or dealer) had bypassed several terminals and many others were corroded. I ended up buying new harnesses (both sides) from the dealer but never installed them.

The big difference is that VCDS couldn't detect most of the faults because it is only OBD 1 and only had a few controllers.

I agree, the Phaeton is like a computer network.

I have rebooted my Phaetons by shutting them off and restarting them on occasion.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

richmondvatdi said:


> I just wonder how many of our multitude of fault codes are caused by imperfect connections within the electrical system. Really this electrical system is more like a computer network, and computer networks like consistent voltages.


That's exactly what it is. Controller Area Network bus.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

UPDATE: Well the joy of hearing the W12 roar to life has been replaced by the reality that it's still a Phaeton. When I went to drive it a few days ago, I got the beeping and flashing of STOP VEHICLE-BRAKE FAULT WORKSHOP. From what I can find in searching, which isn't much, I think this a low voltage issue stemming from the LH battery sitting for so long (not always on the maintenance charger. There are no Fault Codes in the ABS Module and when I try to do Output Tests, I get a message that says something like "output conditions not met". I think it may require 12.0V minimum and I am only seeing 11.8V. I'm hoping this goes away once the battery is fully charged. I now have it on the charger when I am not driving.

The bigger concern is the engine. It seems to be running a bit rough at idle and I got a CEL on the way in to work yesterday. I did a scan when I got home:

*Monday,21,December,2020,21:17:09:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.12.0 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G  ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3205-513C
3 Faults Found:

17778 - Cylinder 6 Ignition Circuit 
P1370 - 004 - Open Circuit
16395 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake) 
P0011 - 008 - Retard Setpoint not Reached (Over-Advanced)
16749 - Camshaft Position Sensor B Bank 1 (G300) 
P0365 - 004 - Malfunction - Intermittent

Readiness: 0010 1001*

I cleared the codes and went to bed. I started it up this morning and scanned the Engine I again:

*Tuesday,22,December,2020,05:26:06:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.12.0 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.LBL
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3205-513C
Fault Codes have been Erased

1 Fault Found:
17779 - Cylinder 6 Ignition Circuit 
P1371 - 001 - Short to Plus

Readiness: 0110 1001*

Looking back at this thread I see that it was #3 that had the burning coil pack and not #6 which is throwing some of the codes. However, I suspect that they might share the same harness and perhaps the harness was damaged due to the burning coil pack. I'm afraid to say it, but it looks like the intake manifold may have to come off again. And I'll also study the electrical circuits to see if the camshaft-related faults share a common harness and/or connector.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I think that the camshaft timing needs to be adapted, which might address the camshaft faults. It's also possible that it's related to the original crud on the pins since the two hall senders (i.e. camshaft position sensors) are G40 and G300 and are associated with Pins 86 and 87. And I see that Pin 95 is associated with ignition Cylinder 6. All 3 are part of that portion of the connector. Looks like I have to pull it all apart and dig out ECU 1 once again. Ugh...


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I think that the camshaft timing needs to be adapted, which might address the camshaft faults. It's also possible that it's related to the original crud on the pins since the two hall senders (i.e. camshaft position sensors) are G40 and G300 and are associated with Pins 86 and 87. And I see that Pin 95 is associated with ignition Cylinder 6. All 3 are part of that portion of the connector. Looks like I have to pull it all apart and dig out ECU 1 once again. Ugh...


The Self Study Guide says that the camshaft timing will adapt by itself by idling a few minutes. Idling while running an autoscan should be more than enough time. Of course, that is if the chain hasn't jumped a tooth or something broke. 

Did you probe any of the terminals when you were cleaning them? Being corroded, they may be less forgiving than fresh new terminals. 

I wouldn't mess with them outside of spraying them unless you have new terminals and the tools to replace them. 

If they are the tiny terminals they will be difficult to source but the dealer's electrical repair kit hopefully has them. 

I think it's a VAS1978 if I remember correctly. Normal humans can buy it but it's very expensive. 

Did you spray the terminals on the coil pack connectors?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I would also clear faults in address 11 even if there are no faults latched. Just because 11 and 1 are joined at the hip and in a broader sense are part of the Borg. 

Do you have a G85 fault in the steering controller?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> The Self Study Guide says that the camshaft timing will adapt by itself by idling a few minutes. Idling while running an autoscan should be more than enough time. Of course, that is if the chain hasn't jumped a tooth or something broke.
> 
> Did you probe any of the terminals when you were cleaning them? Being corroded, they may be less forgiving than fresh new terminals.
> 
> ...


I didn't carefully inspect (or clean) any of the coil pack connectors as I didn't know I had a problem when I was in there replacing them. I only discovered the crud in the ECU 1 connector when I pulled it out. I have a choice now to either pull the intake manifold off and check those connectors or go back and give the ECU connector one more good cleaning. Not sure which has a better chance of success and both are somewhat PITA jobs.

BTW, no faults in ECUII and no Steering faults at all.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Pulled ECU1 again and took a closer look at the pins and it's not pretty. I hadn't gotten all the gunk off the first time so I gave it another few shots of DeoxIT and went in (gently) with a toothbrush to remove as much as I could. This is what it looks like. As you can see the corrosion is pretty severe.









The good news is that it starts and runs great so far. I took it for a couple mile drive and no codes when I got home. It idles so much smoother than it has before. However, I can't imagine that I won't be revisiting this problem again in short order with these severely-corroded pins. Is a new ECU in my future?

On to the other issue, the Brake Fault Workshop is still there. It may be that the ABS module needs to be recoded. However, when following the Youtube video from Ross Tech, I cannot figure out what my production code is for my brakes. Somewhere on this sticker...









I believe there should be a three-digit code that starts with 1L, 1X, or 1Z...









Am I missing something in the procedure? How do I know what my "brakes" digit is?

Any help or education on this would be greatly appreciated.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

According to the ETKA manual the NAR Phaetons all have code 1ZK brakes, also known as 1ZL in ROW Phaetons.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

There is a thread in the FAQ with coding for various Phaetons around the globe but I'll save you the trouble.

All North American Phaetons came with the same brakes. The only difference in coding is the engine.

Since you have a 2004 W12 like mine, your ABS Controller coding is 0008397 (copied and pasted directly from autoscan).


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

As far as the Engine Controllers, I would humbly suggest buying some new (used) ones from eBay.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> As far as the Engine Controllers, I would humbly suggest buying some new (used) ones from eBay.


Got the ABS coding all set. Thanks.

Yes, I've already been on eBay searching. Will a used one from another Phaeton be plug and play or is there some work that has to be done first?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> Got the ABS coding all set. Thanks.
> 
> Yes, I've already been on eBay searching. Will a used one from another Phaeton be plug and play or is there some work that has to be done first?


Not sure.

I don't think they need to be matched to the car like a key but I may be wrong.

EDIT: It looks like my eBay search included Bentley results and German Phaeton results even though the suffixes are different. Removing the spaces narrowed down the results to North American Phaetons only.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> As far as the Engine Controllers, I would humbly suggest buying some new (used) ones from eBay.


It didn't take long before the codes started coming back. Again, every one is related to that group of pins. I contacted a couple of companies that repair ECU's. (I've had good luck in the past with repairing ECU's for electrical/programming issues.) Unfortunately the one that did actually respond to me said he could not help me with the corroded pins. So I bit the bullet and ordered a new ECU. $854 from an eBay seller with good reviews. I'll swap it out when it comes in and while I'm in there I will try cleaning the female terminal in the connector housing one more time. Fingers crossed.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> It didn't take long before the codes started coming back. Again, every one is related to that group of pins. I contacted a couple of companies that repair ECU's. (I've had good luck in the past with repairing ECU's for electrical/programming issues.) Unfortunately the one that did actually respond to me said he could not help me with the corroded pins. So I bit the bullet and ordered a new ECU. $854 from an eBay seller with good reviews. I'll swap it out when it comes in and while I'm in there I will try cleaning the female terminal in the connector housing one more time. Fingers crossed.


Happy New Year and good luck.

Which company got back to you? I am thinking of sending in my defective TPMS controllers.

Be careful when cleaning. Try not to spread the female terminals.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

All I used on the pins or female terminals was DeoxIT and a toothbrush (gently).

These are the people who responded to me. I have not used this particular company so please do your own research:


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Not sure.
> 
> I don't think they need to be matched to the car like a key but I may be wrong.
> 
> EDIT: It looks like my eBay search included Bentley results and German Phaeton results even though the suffixes are different. Removing the spaces narrowed down the results to North American Phaetons only.


Well, I can now confirm that a new ECU is *not* plug and play. After installing the brand new ECU, I attempted to start the car and got the dreaded IMMOBIL ACTIVATED. After a quick search, I found a procedure on the Ross-Tech site for installing a new ECU. In order to tell the immobilizer it's OK to talk to the new ECU, you need the *PIN* number for the car in order to Adapt it. The Ross-Tech video doesn't mention where one might look for the car's PIN number. but does say that it can't be extracted using VCDS. It's only a 5-digit number so it is probably make/model/engine/year specific (i.e. there is most likely not a unique PIN number for every Phaeton on the road). I don't see anything in the Owner's Manual or on the sticker for the car that looks like it might be a PIN number, and there is nothing obvious on the sticker from the old ECU. Any ideas?

EDIT: I think I was wrong. It is a unique number for the specific ECU. This looks like another VW rabbit hole...


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> Well, I can now confirm that a new ECU is *not* plug and play. After installing the brand new ECU, I attempted to start the car and got the dreaded IMMOBIL ACTIVATED. After a quick search, I found a procedure on the Ross-Tech site for installing a new ECU. In order to tell the immobilizer it's OK to talk to the new ECU, you need the *PIN* number for the car in order to Adapt it. The Ross-Tech video doesn't mention where one might look for the car's PIN number. but does say that it can't be extracted using VCDS. It's only a 5-digit number so it is probably make/model/engine/year specific (i.e. there is most likely not a unique PIN number for every Phaeton on the road). I don't see anything in the Owner's Manual or on the sticker for the car that looks like it might be a PIN number, and there is nothing obvious on the sticker from the old ECU. Any ideas?
> EDIT: I think I was wrong. It is a unique number for the specific ECU. This looks like another VW rabbit hole...


Someone on here a while ago recommended this site for Kessy Cloning services but it looks like it they also offer PIN readout service:
www.speedosolutions.com/Audi-VW-Immobilizer-PIN-Read-Service_p_18.html

Another member had a Kessy cloned by Jack Shapiro at European Parts Emporium www.europeanpartsemporium.com

I have no personal experience with these places so do your own due diligence.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Someone on here a while ago recommended this site for Kessy Cloning services but it looks like it they also offer PIN readout service:
> www.speedosolutions.com/Audi-VW-Immobilizer-PIN-Read-Service_p_18.html
> 
> Another member had a Kessy cloned by Jack Shapiro at European Parts Emporium www.europeanpartsemporium.com
> ...


Thanks. I'm now talking to Speedometer Solutions. I'll update you all on my progress.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I'm sharing this for a future time when someone installs a new ECU and can't start the car. Below is the email I received from Speedometer Solutions this afternoon:

*Typically, new ECU would be in “new/virgin” mode. At that point it does not require a security login with native PIN. Only requires the PIN/SKC for New Value (intended immobilizer system) Adaptation through CH50.

With used/donor ECU, you first need to perform Security Login with its native PIN/SKC, then Adapt via Adaptation CH50 with New PIN/SKC of the car’s immobilizer. 

With the new ECU in the car, Go to Adaptation CH91 and read the stored Value. Value of 0 is New/Virgin state and 4 is Adapted state (where PIN/SKC login will be required to unlock the ECU – enable) 

If the Ch91 Adaptation Value is 0, only the original ECU will be needed for PIN read. PIN can be provided over email/phone before ECU is returned, so that new unit can be coded ASAP*

Tonight with VCDS I confirmed that the brand new ECU #1 does, in fact, show a stored value of 0 and that the other ECU shows a stored value of 4, just as expected.

I'll be sending the old ECU out tomorrow for PIN read. They charge $50.

ADDITIONAL INFO: I didn't realize it until I was on their site, but these are the same guys who repaired my instrument cluster right after I first bought the car in 2017. They were extremely helpful and did a terrific job with the instrument cluster so I feel good about sending them my ECU. I'll update you next week.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

That's excellent info, thanks for posting it!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

@Paximus can you add this ECU coding info to the FAQ?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Deleted


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

UPDATE: Speedometer Solutions emailed me the PIN for the old ECU. I entered it per the Ross-Tech instructions here and it started right up and runs very smooth but I still have a CEL on ECU #1:

*Wednesday,13,January,2021,22:14:57:01901
VCDS Version: Release 20.12.0 (x64) Running on Windows 10 x64
www.Ross-Tech.com

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV ª5211
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3205-513C
2 Faults Found:

18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2
P1923 - 008 - - Intermittent
18055 - Check Coding of ECUs on Powertrain Data Bus
P1647 - 004 - - MIL ON

Readiness: 0010 1001*

As soon as I clear codes, the second one regarding coding comes right back. Ross-Tech says:

*"Coding of Powertrain related Control Modules wrong/incomplete"*

Since this is a brand new code I suspect that this has something to do with the new ECU, but not sure. I verified that the coding on the new ECU matches the coding on ECU #2 (0000173). What would "powertrain related control modules" include (besides engine and transmission)? If the coding Any ideas where to attack this code?


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

No idea where to start with this one but there is a thread listing all controllers w/ coding for various engines VAG-COM Controller Lists from Phaetons

I just checked on one of my W12s and both ECUs have the same coding as yours but a different Work Shop Code (not sure what that does or if it's important):

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: A51C1BB9A9FACFA3A04-513C

Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: A51C1BB9A9FACFA3A04-513C

Did you ask Speedometer Services if they have had to deal with that issue before?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> No idea where to start with this one but there is a thread listing all controllers w/ coding for various engines VAG-COM Controller Lists from Phaetons
> 
> I just checked on one of my W12s and both ECUs have the same coding as yours but a different Work Shop Code (not sure what that does or if it's important):
> 
> ...


Haven't talked to them yet as they were closed by the time I got home to try it. That's a good suggestion though,


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Speedometer Solutions said to check to make sure the coding on the 2 ECU's is 0000173, which it is. The other thought he had was maybe it could be a difference in software revisions on the original vs. new ECU. I just started a thread over at the Ross-Tech support forum. If you really have a lot of free time on your hands and want to follow that thread, here is the link


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

It turned out that jyoung8607 over on the Ross-Tech forum solved the mystery. Here is what he asked me to do and it seems to have worked. I was able to clear the code and drive it 20 miles to work this morning code-free. (Before I did this, I would clear the code and it would come back immediately.)

*"My first thought is maybe there's a mismatch in cruise-control activation states. That's something that would definitely need to be done on a new ECU, may need to be manually matched between the two ECUs, and wouldn't show up in the actual module coding in an Auto-Scan. Connect to address 01, go to the Login button, login with code 11463 per the tool-tip that will pop up. Repeat that on address 11 for good measure, if it'll let you. Then clear codes on 11, then 01, then see what you get."*


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

That's great!


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Excellent news!! I read the whole thread over on the Ross-Tech forum, jyoung used to be pretty active here ... I think he has the Aubergine '06 W12, would love to own that one


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

100 miles so far and still no CEL.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Cool! Now you have to run the tank down below 1/2 full to make sure.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Cool! Now you have to run the tank down below 1/2 full to make sure.


What CEL should I look forward to seeing when I run the tank down? (Can't wait for that...)


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> What CEL should I look forward to seeing when I run the tank down? (Can't wait for that...)


I doubt you will have any CEL but when 7579 had problems with the LDP the CEL would return sometimes after I reset the intermittent fault. 

Then I noticed it would come back right about when I was at 1/2 tank. 

I asked the mechanic at the dealer and he said the emissions system starts self checking when the tank gets below 3/4 full. 

I had replaced the LDP but the CEL would still come on sometimes. 7579 had passed two annual emissions tests by then. I guess my habit of trying to keep at least 1/2 tank had unknowingly helped it pass. 

The mechanic discovered that the vacuum lines from the engine to the LDP were torn out. It had been that way since I owned the car because I sure didn't scrape bottom and tear them out. All told, I spent around $2K fixing the LDP system. 

On 8486, the CEL would come on earlier when the Secondary Air Injection System needed fixing. I knew about keeping gas in the tank by then but it would light up the CEL right at 3/4 full.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Driving home today I was thinking how great it has been since the new ECU#1. 250 miles and almost 3/4 tank with no CEL. Then all of a sudden the voltage meter started bouncing around like a ping pong ball between 10V and almost 12V. When I exited the highway (about 7 miles from home) the meter dropped to 0V and I got a message that the system was shutting down high current draw systems. Thankfully that did not include the headlights! Got it home and in the garage. Left battery measuring 12.5V and right battery at 13.1V. I guess it's off to Google and Ross-Tech to search for some information. If I can't figure it out, stay tuned! I'll be starting a new thread so you can all suffer along with me. (All I keep thinking is that alternator replacement is "engine out"...


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> When I exited the highway (about 7 miles from home) the meter dropped to 0V and I got a message that the system was shutting down high current draw systems. Thankfully that did not include the headlights! Got it home and in the garage. Left battery measuring 12.5V and right battery at 13.1V. I guess it's off to Google and Ross-Tech to search for some information. If I can't figure it out, stay tuned! I'll be starting a new thread so you can all suffer along with me. (All I keep thinking is that alternator replacement is "engine out"...


8486 did that a few times when it was the storage Phaeton and before I replaced the AGM battery.

I think the headlights are considered essential.

The consumers shutting down thread is in the FAQ.

I'll find it after I post this.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

TB: Intervention Load Management on the Phaeton [TOC, Photos Done] | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I read about that system early on and I understand how it works. I would expect it to intervene if the I was using electrical systems with the engine off and no battery maintainer on, but this happened after 20 minutes of highway driving, and the voltage meter bouncing around near 10V and suddenly dropping to 0V is troubling. The Instrument Cluster output test for the voltage gauge were normal.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I read about that system early on and I understand how it works. I would expect it to intervene if the I was using electrical systems with the engine off and no battery maintainer on, but this happened after 20 minutes of highway driving, and the voltage meter bouncing around near 10V and suddenly dropping to 0V is troubling. The Instrument Cluster output test for the voltage gauge were normal.


It happened when I was driving 8486. It happened after I took it out of the storage unit and got out on the road. That road has stoplights but is called a "highway": and is usually where my Phaetons self lower. It would have been several minutes after starting it. I saw the messages as I was pulling away from the first stoplight.

I was worried I would need a new alternator or voltage regulator but the next time I drove 8486, it was fine.

I think it happened once more but only for a moment. I'm trying to remember that second instance but I think it said it was shutting down the climate control but I still had cold air at the time.

I am almost 100% sure it was before I replaced its AGM battery the first time because I haven't had Intervention Load Management happen in years. Knock on wood.

When the replacement AGM bit the dust, I had a whole bunch of weird indications, but not this. It was Oct 30 one year. I started a thread on it.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> It's not too bad of a job now that you are not afraid of removing the intake. The RH side valve cover is a little tricky to get off because of clearance issues and some of the valve cover bolts are hard to get to (be careful not to round them off), otherwise a straight forward job. Valve cover gasket are normal rubber style and are available from VW and aftermarket from Victor Reinz. Here are a few part #s that I have used:
> 
> 07C-103-483-C Valve Cover Gasket, LH
> 07C-103-484-C Valve Cover Gasket, RH
> ...


So last night I was thinking about the oil I saw pooled around the plugs and made the decision to go back in and do this job. While putting together the order for the parts, I came to "WHT-002-370 Valve Cover Mounting Bolt w/ rubber grommet" and started counting up how many of these little devils are involved in this surgery. Best I can figure, that total is 24. At $8.75 each, that's $210 (plus shipping and tax) worth of bolts. The manual doesn't specify the dreaded "Renew" next to them but does say "renew seal if damaged". Should I bite the bullet and order them? Or maybe order a handful to have handy in case there are some bad ones? It always seems as though the heat generated under the hood of the W12 tends to rapidly age any parts that are not made of some type of metal so the seal portion is likely to be hard/brittle/cracked.

On another related note, my long-lost friend, the Check Engine Light, returned on the way home tonight. Thankfully it's on Bank 2 so it's not related to my ECU#1 woes of the past 3 years. It's for:
*16777 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G301)
P0393 - 001 - Signal too High - Intermittent - MIL ON
16405 - Bank 2: Camshaft A (Intake)
P0021 - 008 - Retard Setpoint not Reached (Over-Advanced) - Intermittent - MIL ON*

I think that sensor is at the back of the motor, right? If so, I am thinking I may be able to get to it a little easier with the intake manifold removed. I'm hoping since it's "intermittent" it may just be a loose wire or bad connection. Anyone have any first hand experience with this code? If it's likely to be a bad sensor, I can order that along with the pile of parts I'll be ordering for the oil seal replacement.

My credit card stands ready awaiting your replies.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> So last night I was thinking about the oil I saw pooled around the plugs and made the decision to go back in and do this job. While putting together the order for the parts, I came to "WHT-002-370 Valve Cover Mounting Bolt w/ rubber grommet" and started counting up how many of these little devils are involved in this surgery. Best I can figure, that total is 24. At $8.75 each, that's $210 (plus shipping and tax) worth of bolts. The manual doesn't specify the dreaded "Renew" next to them but does say "renew seal if damaged". Should I bite the bullet and order them? Or maybe order a handful to have handy in case there are some bad ones? It always seems as though the heat generated under the hood of the W12 tends to rapidly age any parts that are not made of some type of metal so the seal portion is likely to be hard/brittle/cracked.


Good plan to deal with the brittle valve cover gaskets and spark plug tube seals. I have done it on one already and just got the parts in this week to do another one in a couple of weeks. I did not renew the valve cover bolts and I don't believe it's necessary as they are not the main sealing element at the bolt hole. I just cleaned them up real well including the small gaskets which weren't brittle on mine. I would suggest ordering a few new ones in case you find some damaged one or, the more likely scenario, you round one off during removal/install. You are correct, there are 12 bolts per side.













richmondvatdi said:


> On another related note, my long-lost friend, the Check Engine Light, returned on the way home tonight. Thankfully it's on Bank 2 so it's not related to my ECU#1 woes of the past 3 years. It's for:
> *16777 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G301)
> P0393 - 001 - Signal too High - Intermittent - MIL ON
> 16405 - Bank 2: Camshaft A (Intake)
> ...


Bummer about the CEL. I never had to deal with that on the W12 before but I'm pretty sure it's on the back of the cylinder head as there are no sensors in the front. It's probably tight back there, even with the valve cover off but judging from the photo of the sensor on the FCP Euro site, it's pretty straightforward as it has an o-ring to seal it unlike the V8 which has a seal similar to a crankshaft seal that needs to be driven in.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Did you reset the fault yet?

I don't recall seeing that fault offhand. I opened a bunch of scans on both Phaetons at random but didn't notice that fault. I do have a bunch of random intermittent faults than only occurred once. I also have faults that kept returning.

Did you drive it right after resetting engine faults?

The camshafts have to be readapted after resetting engine faults. The study guide says they will readapt themselves after idling a few minutes. I always run another autoscan after clearing engine faults so I never had to readapt the cams on purpose.

You could buy one in case the fault keeps returning and it wouldn't hurt to spray the connector with contact cleaner.

The W12 Study Guide 892303 shows it on page 22.

In the online SSP 250, it's on page 24:

Untitled Document (volkspage.net)

G301 looks like the easiest one to get to but according to this thread, it's a pain:

Replacing Camshaft Position Sensor G301 | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Foru

Good luck.

-Eric


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> On another related note, my long-lost friend, the Check Engine Light, returned on the way home tonight. Thankfully it's on Bank 2 so it's not related to my ECU#1 woes of the past 3 years. It's for:
> *16777 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G301)
> P0393 - 001 - Signal too High - Intermittent - MIL ON
> 16405 - Bank 2: Camshaft A (Intake)
> ...


Got that one right now, not intermittent anymore so I have to deal with it as it puts the car in all kinds of failure strategies such as allways open thermostat and cooling fans running. It looks like this failure is a bit common. I tried to change it with the intake manifold in place but my hands are not shaped for that tiny space between the rear of the engine and the firewall. Lacking a garage and -17 degrees C outside I will wait for a better day to attack it with the intake manifold removed.
It has been mentioned on the forum that the wiring close to the sensor has been damaged by heat so it could be a good idea to be prepared with some extra pieces of wires for splicing if needed.

Lennart


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk Pro


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

ravenflies said:


> Got that one right now, not intermittent anymore so I have to deal with it as it puts the car in all kinds of failure strategies such as allways open thermostat and cooling fans running. It looks like this failure is a bit common. I tried to change it with the intake manifold in place but my hands are not shaped for that tiny space between the rear of the engine and the firewall. Lacking a garage and -17 degrees C outside I will wait for a better day to attack it with the intake manifold removed.
> It has been mentioned on the forum that the wiring close to the sensor has been damaged by heat so it could be a good idea to be prepared with some extra pieces of wires for splicing if needed.
> 
> Lennart
> ...


I got a chance today to starting developing a plan of attack to get this sensor out. I honestly don't think removing the intake manifold will make access any easier, as the manifold doesn't seem to be blocking it. (Lots of other things are, though.) If I do manage to somehow get my hand and the appropriate tool back there and actually remove this sensor, I would not even consider putting the old one back in. I'll replace it with a new one to eliminate it as a possible source of the code. This is definitely not a job I want to have to do twice.


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> I got a chnce today to starting developing a plan of attack to get this sensor out. I honestly don't think removing the intake manifold will make access any easier, as the manifold doesn't seem to be blocking it. (Lots of other things are, though.) If I do manage to somehow get my hand and the appropriate tool back there and actually remove this sensor, I would not even consider putting the old one back in. I'll replace it with a new one to eliminate it as a possible source of the code. This is definitely not a job I want to have to do twice.


My first thought about the manifold was the same as yours at my first attempt but you will actually move the edge to work from so to say quite a bit closer down to the sensor, 10-15 cm or so. That would give you that tiny extra space needed to manage to move the hand when it has found the way down in the obscured world of the rear of the engine. At least that is my guess and hope.
When removing the manifold the screws should be renewed and here VW have good reasons to suggest that. They are made of some super light alloy (aluminium?) that is not that strong and should be mounted with torque plus angle and that weak alloy will snap. There is a bunch of them and they will cost quite much so the last time I had them off I marked each of them carefully, where they were positioned and rotation position as well. In that way each screw would end up exactly as before. It has worked for about 100 000 km since that whithout leakage or breakage.
And I totally agree about changing the sensor when going through all that struggle.

Lennart


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk Pro


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

ravenflies said:


> My first thought about the manifold was the same as yours at my first attempt but you will actually move the edge to work from so to say quite a bit closer down to the sensor, 10-15 cm or so. That would give you that tiny extra space needed to manage to move the hand when it has found the way down in the obscured world of the rear of the engine. At least that is my guess and hope.
> When removing the manifold the screws should be renewed and here VW have good reasons to suggest that. They are made of some super light alloy (aluminium?) that is not that strong and should be mounted with torque plus angle and that weak alloy will snap. There is a bunch of them and they will cost quite much so the last time I had them off I marked each of them carefully, where they were positioned and rotation position as well. In that way each screw would end up exactly as before. It has worked for about 100 000 km since that whithout leakage or breakage.
> And I totally agree about changing the sensor when going through all that struggle.
> 
> ...


I've had the manifold off twice so far. First time was for the thermostat replacement, and I reused the old bolts. The most recent time was for the plugs and coil packs and I bought new bolts. The manual does not call them out as TTY or one-time-use bolts and because they are quite expensive, I've decided that one re-use is acceptable. I know there is some risk because if one breaks off it will be a bit of a nightmare to extract the broken bolt, but it's a risk my bank account wants me to take.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Good plan to deal with the brittle valve cover gaskets and spark plug tube seals. I have done it on one already and just got the parts in this week to do another one in a couple of weeks. I did not renew the valve cover bolts and I don't believe it's necessary as they are not the main sealing element at the bolt hole. I just cleaned them up real well including the small gaskets which weren't brittle on mine. I would suggest ordering a few new ones in case you find some damaged one or, the more likely scenario, you round one off during removal/install. You are correct, there are 12 bolts per side.
> 
> View attachment 66950
> 
> ...


So Lennart, do you have any tips on removal, or more specifically installation of the valve covers? It was a real struggle getting the first one out, and I can just imagine how difficult it will to get back in there. There is almost no room to get the back end of the valve cover under the coolant/fuel lines while also clearing the timing chain. Do I need to start removing fuel lines (I hope not) or just muscle it in there? (There is no easy job in this incredibly tight engine compartment...)


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> So Lennart, do you have any tips on removal, or more specifically installation of the valve covers? It was a real struggle getting the first one out, and I can just imagine how difficult it will to get back in there. There is almost no room to get the back end of the valve cover under the coolant/fuel lines while also clearing the timing chain. Do I need to start removing fuel lines (I hope not) or just muscle it in there? (There is no easy job in this incredibly tight engine compartment...)


Bad news, it's a super tight fit as you found out. I've done it once before and the RH side is definitely more challenging than the LH side cover. I think I managed it with the fuel lines connected but next time I think I'll just disconnect the fuel lines right under the coolant reservoir (after removing the RH air filter housing), that should make life a little easier. They have the same style connector as the ones at the fuel filter.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Unless the picture in the Study guide is backwards, G301 is on the Driver's side. 

See page 24:

Untitled Document (volkspage.net)


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Unless the picture in the Study guide is backwards, G301 is on the Driver's side.
> 
> See page 24:
> 
> Untitled Document (volkspage.net)


You're correct. It is. But I figured while I have the intake manifold off I would kill 2 birds with 1 stone by changing the leaky spark plug tube seals and valve cover gaskets along with G301. I just decided to start with Bank 1 since it looked like the more difficult of the two. When I move on to Bank 2 (someday), I will change G301 after I get that valve cover off.


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

Regarding the valve cover and tight fit: I had a closer look in the manual and in real world, have not needed to do it myself. Nothing mentioned in the manual and it looks like the advices given here are recommended to follow.
I had a go at the G301 (yes, driver side, left, outlet cam) today and removing the manifold made a great difference.
My not so small hands hurts but it is done and the car runs. Quite a paranoid failiure strategy on that one. Thermostat and cooling fan is understandable but refusing to deliver cabin temperature above outside temp is a bit over the top and a bit uncomfortable with temps below -10 C as it has been here. Well, some images that hopefully can help before anyone else needs to do the work:





































Lennart


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

This is what I use:

Wadsworth Super Deluxe Mini Ratchet & Screwdriver Set 4, 52-Pc (specialized.net)

The clearance needed is a little less than an Allen wrench but it's a ratchet.

A vendor at work used this set to remove RF parts. The sets are available on Amazon and elsewhere.

I used mine to remove the console on 7579 without taking the seats out.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> You're correct. It is. But I figured while I have the intake manifold off I would kill 2 birds with 1 stone by changing the leaky spark plug tube seals and valve cover gaskets along with G301. I just decided to start with Bank 1 since it looked like the more difficult of the two. When I move on to Bank 2 (someday), I will change G301 after I get that valve cover off.


That's good. I was hoping you weren't replacing the wrong one then ending up having the same fault when it was all over.


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> So Lennart, do you have any tips on removal, or more specifically installation of the valve covers? It was a real struggle getting the first one out, and I can just imagine how difficult it will to get back in there. There is almost no room to get the back end of the valve cover under the coolant/fuel lines while also clearing the timing chain. Do I need to start removing fuel lines (I hope not) or just muscle it in there? (There is no easy job in this incredibly tight engine compartment...)


Just finished the valve cover gasket & spark plug replacement today. This time I disconnected the fuel/evap lines on the RH side, made it a lot easier together with a bungee cord holding the wiring harness out of the way.


















I did notice something unusual that I can't remember seeing on my other W12s. The crankcase breather lines and oil separators, especially the one on the LH side had some yellow slime/sludge. I took apart both breather valves and they are fine and didn't have that stuff in there but I'm curious were this is coming from.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

After several months of not having time to work on the Beast, I finally got it back together. (Well with the exception of snapping off the short M7X20mm bolt, which is covered here). Started it up, but it runs very rough. I ran a scan (below) and there are a bunch of "Injector Cylinder-Circuit Malfunction" codes. Most are on cylinder bank 2 (ECU2), but there is also one on ECU 1 (Cylinder 1). Most of the connectors for the injectors and coil packs were in bad shape. Many were missing the locking feature or were even more badly cracked or broken from the heat over the years, so I decided to replace them all. I am surprised by this issue. I was very careful unpinning each wire one at a time from the old connector and repinning in the new connector before removing the next wire, so I am a bit mystified.

I bought brand new bolts and a new gasket as well and will need to pull the intake again in order to see what's going on under there. Because I've had bad luck with those bolts, I really want to maximize my chance of solving the issue before I put the intake back on again. The problem is that I don't think that these codes will come back without starting the engine, and the engine won't start without replacing the intake.

I'm thinking it has to be something pretty obvious since I'm getting the same code on 5 of the 12 cylinders, right? Anybody have any experience with these codes or have any advice on how to proceed?

Scan:
Sunday,13,June,2021,10:07:29:01901

VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64

VCDS Version: 21.3.0.0 (x64) HEX-V2 CB: 0.4543.4

Data version: 20210226 DS325.0

www.Ross-Tech.com





VIN: WVWAH63D248007909 License Plate:





Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))

Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E

34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77



VIN: WVWAH63D248007909 Mileage: 194470km-120838miles

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl

Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 

Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 

Coding: 0000173

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3DC5-513C



2 Faults Found:

18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2

P1923 - 008 -

16585 - Injector: Cylinder 1 (N30)

P0201 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent

Readiness: 0010 1001



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 3D0-927-156.lbl

Part No: 3D0 927 156 N

Component: AG5 01L 6.0 W12 USA 1114 

Coding: 0001102

Shop #: WSC 13622 410 403014

VCID: 33301643A7251E43421-513C



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl

Part No: 3D0 614 517 R

Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0043 

Coding: 0008397

Shop #: WSC 06438 000 00000

VCID: 313C1C4B5D392C5330D-51CE



1 Fault Found:

01826 - Sensor for Steering Angle (G85); Supply Voltage Terminal 30

000 - -



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl

Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 M HW: 5WK 470 26

Component: Kessy 6400 

Coding: 0133356

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 2F381A334B0D3AA3269-5160



Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX

Component: ELV XXXX



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass Labels: 3D0-959-759.lbl

Part No: 3D0 959 759 B

Component: Sitzmemory D1 BF 1501 

Coding: 0000003

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 3534285BA95100736C5-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl

Part No: 3D0 035 008 M

Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0188 

Coding: 0500305

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 2412E51F12CB89FBCBB-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl

Part No: 3D0 907 040 G

Component: Climatronic D1 1132 

Coding: 0000002

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 221EE30708DF87CBB97-5160



1 Fault Found:

00445 - Loss of Refrigerant

000 - - - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb

Part No: 3D0 937 049 G

Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001 

Coding: 0000002

Shop #: WSC 06442 444 59022

VCID: 2E0607374C0733AB2DF-5160



1 Fault Found:

00907 - Intervention load Management

000 - -



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl

Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 

Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 

Coding: 0000173

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 2514F81B19F170F3DC5-513C



4 Faults Found:

16596 - Injector: Cylinder 12 (N302)

P0212 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction - MIL ON

16591 - Injector: Cylinder 7 (N85)

P0207 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent - MIL ON

16592 - Injector: Cylinder 8 (N86)

P0208 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent

16595 - Injector: Cylinder 11 (N301)

P0211 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl

Part No: 3D0 909 601 D

Component: 0A Airbag 8.4E+ H07 0934 

Coding: 0012353

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 2412E51F12CB89FBCBB-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl

Part No: 3D0 953 549 E

Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 

Coding: 0000232

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 2F381A334B0D3AA3269-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl

Part No: 3D0 920 981 G

Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0421 

Coding: 0007221

Shop #: WSC 03325 444 84671

VCID: 2B000E237F1546830A1-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl

Part No: 6N0 909 901

Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 

Coding: 0000006

Shop #: WSC 03325 444 84671

VCID: 70BAD94F96B3655B7F3-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 28: HVAC, Rear Labels: 3D0-919-158.lbl

Part No: 3D0 919 158 F

Component: Klima-Bedienteil D1 0117 

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 2E0607374C0733AB2DF-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl

Part No: 3D0 909 157

Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) X012 

Coding: 0000001

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 6696BF17A477BBEB15F-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V1.clb

Part No: 3D0 907 553 B

Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C1V0 1101 

Coding: 0015501

Shop #: WSC 06438 444 84346

VCID: 2616FF1764F77BEBD5F-5160



1 Fault Found:

00778 - Steering Angle Sensor (G85)

004 - No Signal/Communication



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr Labels: 3D0-959-760.lbl

Part No: 3D0 959 760 CA

Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1720 

Coding: 0000001

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 6FB8DA338B8D7AA3669-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 37: Navigation Labels: 3D0-919-887.lbl

Part No: 3D0 919 887 A

Component: NAVIGATION 0147 

Coding: 0400000

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 323E1347583F174B497-5160



1 Fault Found:

00625 - Vehicle Speed Signal

004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl

Part No: 3D0 907 135 C

Component: Dachmodul 0708 

Coding: 0000015

Shop #: WSC 03325 444 70100

VCID: 2310E60317C58EC3B21-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl

Part No: 3D0 909 158

Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) X012 

Coding: 0000001

Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 6788B213A37DA2E32E9-513C



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl

Part No: 3D0 959 933 E

Component: 6P HSG 3211 

Coding: 0000040

Shop #: WSC 06438 444 84346

VCID: 323E1347583F174B497-4B00



Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D1 959 701 E

Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0104



Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D1 959 702 E

Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0104



Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 E

Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0104



Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 E

Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0104



Subsystem 5 - Part No: 3D0 909 610 B

Component: 3I HDSG 2320



Subsystem 6 - Part No: 7L0 907 719

Component: Neigungssensor 0020



2 Faults Found:

01737 - Potentiometer for Mirror Adj. Vertical; Pass. Side

008 - Implausible Signal

00896 - Trunk Lock Unit (F256)

008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl

Part No: 3D0 035 466

Component: 12K-AUDIOVERST 0115 

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 5F98AAF37B2DEA23D69-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: Redir Fail!

Part No: 3D0 907 273 G

Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0026 

Coding: 0410224

Shop #: WSC 06438 444 999999

VCID: 2A0E0B2770EF5F8BF17-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 66: Seat, Rear Labels: None

Part No: 3D0 959 860 B

Component: Sitzmemory D1 H 1513 

Coding: 0000001

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 2E0607374C0733AB2DF-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: 3Dx-955-1xx-V1.clb

Part No: 3D1 955 119

Component: Front Wiper 2005 

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 6696BF17A477BBEB15F-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl

Part No: 3D0 915 181 C

Component: Batteriemanagement 2700 

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 2310E60317C58EC3B21-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 75: Telematics Labels: 3D0-035-617.lbl

Part No SW: 3D0 035 617 HW: 3D0 035 617

Component: Telematik NAR1 0101 

Coding: 0061860

Shop #: WSC 03164 444 58989

VCID: 5DE490FB7121F833C45-5160



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 76: Park Assist Labels: None

Part No: 3D0 919 283 C

Component: 03 Einparkhilfe 0807 

Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000

VCID: 2A0E0B2770EF5F8BF17-5160



No fault code found.



End----(Elapsed Time: 06:47, VBatt start/end: 12.0V/12.0V. VIgn 0.0V)------


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I don't have any experience with those codes but to get a misfire you either have bad compression (I think you can rule that out), no spark or no/bad fuel metering. Since your codes points to a fuel injector circuit issue I would assume something with the connectors went wrong. You can run an output test in VCDS and I seem to remember that you can activate each fuel injector individually that way. Test it that way and if you don't hear a slight clicking sounds from the injector then you know it's either the wiring or the injector (less likely since those worked before you did the service).


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> I don't have any experience with those codes but to get a misfire you either have bad compression (I think you can rule that out), no spark or no/bad fuel metering. Since your codes points to a fuel injector circuit issue I would assume something with the connectors went wrong. You can run an output test in VCDS and I seem to remember that you can activate each fuel injector individually that way. Test it that way and if you don't hear a slight clicking sounds from the injector then you know it's either the wiring or the injector (less likely since those worked before you did the service).


That's an excellent suggestion (run output tests on the injectors) Again, I'm trying to gather as much information (and ideally figure out the root cause) before removing the intake so that when I reinstall the intake I have high confidence that I won't need to remove it again (because of the whole breaking bolts issue, here). I ran output tests on ECU 1 and ECU 11 and all the injectors made an audible "click". There was no noticeable difference between the clicks of the injectors throwing codes (1,12,7,8,11) and the ones not throwing codes (2,3,4,5,6,9,10). Since the scan says "intermittent", my guess is that maybe I don't have good, tight contact on all of the injectors. I'm going to do some more research to see if there are MVB readings that might be able to point me to a problem...


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, at least you know the injectors themselves seem to function but as you said, maybe the connectors are not seated fully and are making intermittent contact. No other suggestion comes to mind at this point besides maybe looking at the wiring diagram for the injectors. Maybe there is an issue with a ground connection? Injectors are pretty simple, they just have two wires going to them and the ECU just open and closes the circuit. Maybe you can research what triggers the ECU to declare a circuit malfunction?


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

One of the terminal tools in my kit is a flat blade measuring 0.66mm thick X 1.50mm wide.









The male terminal on the fuel injector is almost the exact same thickness and width. On the cylinders that are throwing the "Curcuit Malfunction" code, what I found is the when I slide the terminal tool into the female terminal on the connector, it is a loose fit. When I slide the tool into the female terminal on the "good" cylinders I can feel resistance. My guess is that when unpinning the old fuel injector connectors and pinning the new ones, I may have damaged some of the female terminals (i.e. accidentally opened them up to the point that they no longer make good contact with the injector). One of the terminals was bent right at where the wire ends. In trying to straighten it out, I can tell it is about to break off.

I would like to replace some of these damaged female terminals.









I think I can just crimp on a new female connector, but I have not been able to figure out what either the part number or specification is on these terminals. They are not a standard rectangular terminal as they have kind of a "tab" in one corner. Can anyone point me to where to find just the terminals (besides buying an entire fuel injector wiring harness)?


----------



## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I've never repaired/re-crimped new connectors on the Phaeton but I know VW sells repair wires with the terminals already crimped on it. You'd have to check with a dealer and have them look it up. I think people have used repair wires on the steering column lock harness, which is famous for broken wires.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> One of the terminal tools in my kit is a flat blade measuring 0.66mm thick X 1.50mm wide.
> View attachment 103249
> 
> 
> ...


I have a link to a place that sells terminals but I think it's on my other login. If you can find the part number in 7zap, I think ECS sells them.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I have a link to a place that sells terminals but I think it's on my other login. If you can find the part number in 7zap, I think ECS sells them.


I can't find it in my VW links. I think bus depot sold terminals but I don't remember any that looked like that. I didn't see anything similar on the Interwebs either.

I think the housing part number is 07C973722. Perhaps ETKA shows the terminals that go in it.

See # 35
individual parts Phaeton (PHAE) 2004 year Volkswagen USA 971010 (7zap.com)

Search SiteSearch 07C973722 - 07C973722 - HOUSING (07C 973 722) (ecstuning.com)

I think the dealer sometimes have terminals for the mechanics. I bought some Wurth terminals at a VW dealer once.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I have a link to a place that sells terminals but I think it's on my other login. If you can find the part number in 7zap, I think ECS sells them.


That's the issue. I have not been able to find the p/n in 7zap, but I may not be looking in the right places.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I can't find it in my VW links. I think bus depot sold terminals but I don't remember any that looked like that. I didn't see anything similar on the Interwebs either.
> 
> I think the housing part number is 07C973722. Perhaps ETKA shows the terminals that go in it.
> 
> ...


I replaced all the Housings but the 07C-973-722 Genuine VW Housing does not include the wires or female terminals. Just the housing mechanism itself. You have to de-pin the old one and re-pin into the new one.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> That's the issue. I have not been able to find the p/n in 7zap, but I may not be looking in the right places.


I couldn't either Paul I am sure they were in the ETKA electrical diagrams before.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I replaced all the Housings but the 07C-973-722 Genuine VW Housing does not include the wires or female terminals. Just the housing mechanism itself. You have to de-pin the old one and re-pin into the new one.


They usually don't but maybe a parts guy who has better diagrams could look the terminals up by the housing part number. I can't find anything online.

Some wiring housings on eBay include terminals. 

There was also a few used 07C973722s on eBay last night where the seller had cut it from the harness leaving a "pigtail". That may be a last ditch effort. You could just cut the terminals off and crimp on the 07C973722 with pigtails until you can find the terminals and do it correctly. You'd just have to secure the extra wiring.


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Does this look like it would work?

2 Way Fuel Injection Audi VW VAG Wiring Loom Connector Plug (kojaycat.co.uk)


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I started another thread here. Life got in the way for a few months so it's been a while since I had time for the P (and I forgot I had stared this one). Still struggling to find either the repair wire set (or preferably just the terminals) I need for the fuel injector housings.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Does this look like it would work?
> 
> 2 Way Fuel Injection Audi VW VAG Wiring Loom Connector Plug (kojaycat.co.uk)


That's a different housing, although the terminal sorta looks like it might bright...


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

After a long break, it's time to get back to this issue. OK City VW was very helpful and we determined the correct p/n for the terminal (wire set as VW calls them) is 000-979-155 E. One "set" consists of a roughly 12" wire with a female terminal on each end. Cut the wire in the middle and replace both terminals for one injector.

After lots of reading and studying, I initially decided to solder the connections. I felt comfortable with my soldering abilities and with the intake removed it's wide open leaving plenty of easy-to-access work area. I had planned to clean the soldered joints well with alcohol followed by a good shot of Deoxit, a few days drying time, and a layer or perhaps even two layers of waterproof shrink tubing to seal and support/solidify the soldered joint. The problem arose when I went to cut and strip the first wire. The insulation is very hard and stripping the wire was very difficult. The insulation does not slide off easily and it's hard to remove without breaking one of the (very few) fine copper strands in this 0.3mm wire, but it can be done with patience. Once I got the wire stripped I could see that it was not shiny copper, but instead had significant surface oxidation. I think that they are too tiny, delicate, and brittle to do any kind of mechanical cleaning like scraping and no amount of heating with flux will remove enough oxidation to make a good solder joint. I tried. Now I am at a decision point. Best I can tell, my options are:

cut back further looking for clean copper, although I fear that I may never find clean copper. I've already gone back 6" and the wire looks no better.
use a waterproof crimp connector instead of soldering, but can you make a good electrical connection with a crimp onto oxidized copper? Because of the NLA situation of the magnesium intake bolts, I do not want to have to open this up again to redo it, so I am a bit nerrvous about this option.
pull the entire harness and replace just the injector wires back to the origin. This would be a bit painstaking and would involve repinning part of the connector housings to (I assume) both ECM #1 and ECM #2. I would need to find those male pins. I am assuming they are a bit more common than the specialized female ones at the injector end, but not sure about that.
replace the entire harness with a new harness. (I'm not interested in replacing a 17-year old harness with another 17-year old harness.) This would be the most expensive (around $1,000 assuming the one I found online is the correct one here and that it is actually available). This is not quite as much work as the third option above, but I'm sure still a big job.
call the local metal recycling center and sell it by the pound 
Thoughts gentlemen?


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Crimp. That is the recommended wire repair method. That's in the VAS 1978A wiring kit manual and I think it's in every Bentley manual. I'm surprised the VW techs didn't tell you that.

Soldering makes the wire brittle and it is subject to breaking at the end of the soldered joint. It also heats up the wire which invites corrosion.

Even though a crimped wire also bends at the crimp, the wire is still flexible.

You solder inside components where the connection won't bend or when you cannot crimp.

That may not be corrosion, it could be Zink plating.

You need better strippers. Mine are exactly like these except for the brand and color. Your local Lowe's should have them or be able to get them.

KNIPEX Wire Strippers in the Wire Strippers, Crimpers & Cutters department at Lowes.com

This is the model # I have but they have improved it over the years. Mine doesn't have whatever is on the side there.









CIMCO JOKARI-Super-Entmantler, strippers 120025 1200 25 | eBay


Durch die verringerte Oberflächenstruktur und die extrem hohe Härte werden hervorragende Gleiteigenschaften und eine hohe Verschleiß- bzw. Abriebfestigkeit erreicht. Wir sind stets bemüht, diese in vollem Umfang zu gewährleisten.



www.ebay.com


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

If the VW parts guy gave you the part number using your VIN, it's probably correct. 

Here is the 7zap page which is for the BAN (which shows the limitations of 7zap). It has the AL listed. 

individual parts Phaeton (PHAE) 2004 year Volkswagen USA 971010 (7zap.com)


Replacing the entire harness would be the best if you had the time and patience. You would also have to replace anything broken in the repair. If you have the dough, you could buy the harness for the future and repair the original.

I wouldn't worry much about an old harness if it was still flexible and passed all continuity checks. Most German sellers on eBay put the mileage of the car they pulled it from so you can decide if the mileage (kilometerage?) is too high. 

I bought a few steering column harnesses from Germany on eBay so I wouldn't have to repair mine if it suffered the Steering Fault Workshop! warning. The ones I got were flexible but one has a broken airbag wire housing (connector). 

I also bought an entire car worth of wiring years ago for my Scirocco because mice chewed on mine. All of the wiring was flexible including the engine harness. That harness was around 20 years old when I bought it.


----------



## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Crimp. That is the recommended wire repair method. That's in the VAS 1978A wiring kit manual and I think it's in every Bentley manual. I'm surprised the VW techs didn't tell you that.
> 
> Soldering makes the wire brittle and it is subject to breaking at the end of the soldered joint. It also heats up the wire which invites corrosion.
> 
> ...


Yeah I guess it could be Zn plating on the wires, but I've never seen that before on a VW harness, have you? I was thinking that putting a double layer of heat shrink tubing over a fairly long section (maybe 2") would sufficiently immobilize the solder joint as to prevent it from flexing at all, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm using a good Klein tools traditional stripper that I've used for years on small AWG wire. I also have one of these. It works great on larger diameters, but on the 0.35mm2 (~22AWG) VW injector wire, it always winds up yanking out a strand or two of copper with the insulation, and when there's only maybe 8 strands to begin with, that's probably not good. The Knipex stripper you linked to may work better. Do you adjust it for the wire diameter? The one from the above link that I bought needs no adjustment. You put the wire into the end and squeeze all the way down. When the clamping jaws hit the insulation and stop closing, the opposing blades then engage and close to a fixed point before withdrawing to pull the insulation off. Like I said the blades always manage to also pull a strand or two.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> Yeah I guess it could be Zn plating on the wires, but I've never seen that before on a VW harness, have you? I was thinking that putting a double layer of heat shrink tubing over a fairly long section (maybe 2") would sufficiently immobilize the solder joint as to prevent it from flexing at all, but maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> I'm using a good Klein tools traditional stripper that I've used for years on small AWG wire. I also have one of these. It works great on larger diameters, but on the 0.35mm2 (~22AWG) VW injector wire, it always winds up yanking out a strand or two of copper with the insulation, and when there's only maybe 8 strands to begin with, that's probably not good. The Knipex stripper you linked to may work better. Do you adjust it for the wire diameter? The one from the above link that I bought needs no adjustment. You put the wire into the end and squeeze all the way down. When the clamping jaws hit the insulation and stop closing, the opposing blades then engage and close to a fixed point before withdrawing to pull the insulation off. Like I said the blades always manage to also pull a strand or two.


Paul,

I just insert the wire in the closest sized hole and twist. If I don't have room to twist, I just insert the wire and pull. 
Those automatic ones never work for me. I always end up with strands cut. Maybe people who use them all day for years have the right touch. I don't think they used them at work but I wasn't in production. I was just a technician. We had to get crimpers calibrated periodically. We had similar strippers with dedicated holes and I think those had to be calibrated also. Those always snapped back on me mushrooming the strands but at least they didn't break.

I really don't remember on the plating or coating. It could even be a different metal for the engine compartment. I would have to de-pin an engine harness to check. If it was copper under corrosion, it would still scrap off. Pennies can be cleaned up with an eraser. Splices are usually a white metal. The rip-off gold plated stereo splices are probably that same metal with gold plating. My Wago reusable splices have white metal contacts.

I could look up the standards, but it would take days and I am just as likely to stumble on the answer when I am looking for something else. I just edited my post on importing cars when I stumbled on the correct term for the safety sticker.

I don't normally recommend cut harnesses, but you could buy a chunk of VW engine harness to see if it has the same color wire inside. eBay abounds with butchered harnesses. It wouldn't have to be from a Phaeton, just a modern VW. 

Good luck, Paul. 

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Here's the VAS1978B instructions. It doesn't say "crimp only" but only shows crimping. It doesn't have a soldering iron either. 

It does say that "Heatproof wires are built into various parts of the vehicle, mainly in the engine compartment".

"Only crimp" must be in an earlier version or a study guide.

50-00000669_R3-20.01-V1_ML.indd (snapon.com)


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Here's the VAS1978B instructions. It doesn't say "crimp only" but only shows crimping. It doesn't have a soldering iron either.
> 
> It does say that "Heatproof wires are built into various parts of the vehicle, mainly in the engine compartment".
> 
> ...


Thanks Eric.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

UPDATE: I'll continue to document this project in case it may help someone in the future. (Also so my wife can someday print out this thread and give it to the coroner's office to help them determine my probable cause of death.)

The wire coming from the ECU to the injector is 0.35mm2 (~1.27mm OD with the insulation), the wire to the ground is 0.50mm2 (~1.45mm OD), the the new wire sets are 1.00mm2 (~2.00 mm OD). A standard 18/22GA waterproof shrink butt crimp connector works fine for the mechanical crimp. The only problem is the insulation won't shrink down enough to make a waterproof seal around the smaller (injector-ECU) wires. I got around this by putting a short piece of smaller diameter waterproof shrink on the wire prior to crimp and then sliding it into the ID of the butt connector. When you heat them up, the extra piece seals around the wire and the connector insulation seals around the extra piece. 









By far the biggest challenge has been stripping the existing wires, especially the ones to the ECU. (The ground wires are thicker and not quite as difficult). After 18 years of under-hood temps, the insulation is hard as a rock and brittle and it's nearly impossible to strip the insulation off without also breaking at least one of the 6 tiny strands of old/brittle copper. I've developed a bit of a procedure to do it and although slow and painstaking, it seems to be somewhat successful. 

Clip the old wire
The cutting operation tends to flatten the end a bit and seems to make breaking a strand much more likely, so I gently squeeze the cut end to make it as round as possible before attempting to strip it.
Spray a tiny bit of Deoxit Shield S5 into the end and let it sit and penetrate the end. This Deoxit product also contains a lubricant which may help during stripping.
Heat the end of the wire gently with a heat gun. The little bit of heat seems to soften the insulation just enough.
Gently squeeze the strippers in several spots around the outside of the wire. The goal it to weaken the insulation all around at the same point so that when you go in for the actual strip there is as little resistance as possible from the insulation.
Take your time. I've found out if I try to rush this process at all, I wind up breaking strands. 
For me this process takes careful planning. There is not a lot of distance between the connector and the channel that holds the wiring harness, and you want to offset the crimp connectors so they're not right next to each other (causing a big bulge). Once I decide where to cut, I always strip/crimp the thinner ECU wire first. I pick a spot that leaves me a little bit of space before the channel in case the strip doesn't go well and I need to cut and strip a second time.

Since I am replacing 24 wires of various colors with 24 bright yellow wires, of course I had to buy this new toy (which I have always wanted) to identify the wires for the next poor soul who has to deal with this car.









It makes nifty little printed shrink tube labels to identify each of the newly-spliced female terminals as well as the cylinder number.









I've now procrastinated enough. I need to get back to the project. Over several Sundays since Christmas I've managed to complete cylinders 7-12 and now I'm starting on the other 6.

Is this 18-year-old car really worth all of this? Several people in my life closest to me are beginning to question my sanity, as am I.


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## Phaeton4me (Jul 24, 2017)

Very nice label maker. Navy P3C airframe electrical wiring splices actually specified an in-line solder joint with a clear tubing slid over the joint and tied closed at each end with wire loom lacing to make the splice obvious and able to be inspected... Kudos to your perserverence. These cars have a tendency to possess the automotively inflicted.... my family christened my W8 “Precious” and my W12 “Too precious”. Ever seen Lord of the Rings?...
Mark


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks for posting updates and kudos to your perseverance!


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