# Your everyday, ordinary FrankenTurbo'd 2.5L TT



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

FrankenTurbo is no stranger to a number of you folks but I think a project thread is long overdue here. Sure, we had the long-running _FrankenTT is Go! _thread on the vortex 1.8T forum. We even had its _Son of FrankenTT_ build thread. But only now is the time ripe for a proper examination of our products in this forum.

So now, ladies and gentlemen, I ask you to put your hands together for...










Yes, you see the 1.8T is all perfectly good and all, but what about another cylinder? What about a poor man’s TTRS? Possible? Practical? Well, it’s not for nothing that our slogan is *Let’s Do This*. So. Lets.


Out with the old











And here is our lovely replacement. Fresh from its waiting spot in the local breaker yard. Price as pictured? <$1000 delivered.











The best donor car for any 2.5L swap into a Mk4 or TT would be an early model year New Beetle. the 2.5L Beetle has an almost identical engine bay to those in older cars. So the motor drops into the bay with relative ease. Another big advantage is the layout of the motor accessories: again, the early New Beetle had all those parts mounted similarly. This is NOT the case with the more-common Rabbit and Jettas, because they have a different approach to the power steering system. So if you want power steering, you want an engine that's got the accessory rack like this:











This accessory rack (or mount) will accept these parts in top-down order: power steering pump, alternator, air conditioning compressor. When these three items are fitted to the engine you get this:











One stumbling block we've hit is the hard line for the power steering pump. The line already on the TT won't fit. So we bought a VW Beetle unit and "massaged" it a bit to fit. Done.

Here is the 02M transmission fitted to the engine:




















Regarding the question of supplying oil to the turbo, Fabian at FFE had some strong ideas. In this first picture you can see the oil filter flange with the Integrated Engineering oil cooler plate fitted.











If you disregard the oil plate for a moment, you will also see the octagonal shape of the oil sensor. This location will be our source for a pressurized oil feed. Using a cheap tee fitting such as this one…











…we create a spare 10M x 1.00mm thread port for an oil line fitting. 

That leaves the oil return line. Fabian spotted a large threaded plug at the front of the engine near the pulley. 











He found this plug to be the identical part number as the oil pan drain plug, but why is it there and what's its purpose? With a bit of research he found that this plug covers an access hole for a tool that's used to fix the crank in position during fabrication/repair. So its basically vestigial from the factory and available to be used as a place to deposit oil from the turbo. The hole looks directly into the crankcase (literally right at the crank), so drainage by gravity will work.

Another consideration is the fuel pressure management. The Mk4-based TT chassis is designed for a regulator that returns fuel to the tank, but the stock 2.5L fuel rail is not. The simplest solution I know of is this:











We will be fitting Bosch EV14-series 550cc injectors to this rail. The fuel pressure will be set to 3bar. 

So what about the turbo, you ask? Well. We ARE a turbocharger manufacturer, so the motor gets something we've whipped up over the last few months. But before the turbo comes the manifold. To save costs we sourced a cast unit made by C2Motorsports. Here it is, dry-fitted:











Unfortunately, though, what works on a Mk5 or Mk6 car isn't going to work on a Haldex-based one. So we set aside the C2 unit and FFE's Ed Woolsey made a facsimile for it out of stainless.

Here it is. The manifold with T3 flange sporting two bungs for sensor probes and the transfer case below. Kind of a cool sight to see in combination with 5 coil packs I think.











Nasty!

A couple of pictures of the prototype turbo -- which we're calling the F25 -- dry-fitted to the motor.





























And here's the Integrated Engineering fuel rail mounted to the stock intake manifold (note the stock-fitment orientation of the 550s; the fuel rail is designed to retain this):











Also, here's an interesting bit of stats for you:

2005 New Beetle 1.8T
Curb Weight MT	2820

2006 New Beetle 2.5L
Curb Weight MT	2884

So the math shows a net gain of less than 100lbs for this motor. Basically a bag of sand. That's it. Oh, yeah. And speaking of what it weighs in the car, well, *let's put it in the car*!











The chassis has a projection which blocked the AC compressor.



















So this was roughly chopped off for clearance. Ugly, but effective.

A couple notes to do with this swap:

The Mk1 TT has a vehicle speed sensor in the 02M transmission. But the only 2.5L car that came comparably equipped was the Beetle. So this is yet another reason to go with that harness. Pic of the plug on the Beetle harness…











The 02M 6spd transmission linkage conflicts with the 2.5L engine vacuum pump. But there's a workaround: a short-shifter. FFE's Fabian dug through their stockpiles and found one. Sorted.











I'm going to wind down this initial post with some additional tips courtesy of NothingLeavesStock. Here's what Josh there has to say:



nothing-leaves-stock said:


> some stuff I've done and found out for a swap like this
> 
> -oil pressure test fitting on p/s of head is perfect for oil feed.
> -drain go to the pan, weld in a bung, the crank lock hole may be too small for correct drain flow, since its not under pressure
> ...



Lastly, here's a couple pointers on the fuel injectors:

The 2.5L engine comes stock from the factory with a wiring harness for Denso-style injectors. This design was a new one on me, so it took a bit of hunting for the necessary adapters to allow fitment of bigger injectors. The current standard for forced-induction 2.5L is the terrific Bosch EV14-series 550cc injector. It has a USCAR style electrical connection, so we need the appropriate adapter for the Denso harness. Here are a couple of pix showing the necessary parts:




















So, a budgeting note: the combination of 5 injectors and the required adapter pig-tails will run $250 or so. Not bad, but an expense to consider. But then again, there's a whole lot to consider with this kind of project.

dh


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

Interesting opcorn:


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## FatAce (Jan 30, 2012)

Bravo Doug, can't wait to see the results.


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Paging 46 and 2. 
Can't wait to see this done!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

FFE's Ed Woolsey is a terrific fabricator, so he is responsible for the car's custom exhaust setup. We wanted to retain as much of the 42DD exhaust system as possible, so Ed worked from the turbo back. The most challenging bit was making the sharp turn from the turbine outlet. Here is the piece he fabbed:











Here is that "upper down pipe" dry-fitted into position. Also visible in the shot are the two 1/8"NPT bungs which will serve to monitor EGTs and back pressures.











This is a view from the cat-back section looking towards the "upper down pipe". The F25 turbo is in the background.











And lower down pipe being roughed-in:











More pix in a bit...


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Sweet build!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Final fabrication of exhaust system. 





















A second O2 sensor gets placed behind the resonator. This is linked to a Lambda gauge in the cabin.











It's a crowded space behind the passenger-side headlight. We need to figure out room for the fuel rail, pump and intercooler charge pipe.































The post-intercooler run of piping up to the throttle body was actually almost unchanged from the earlier configuration.































Test-fitting the charge-pipe from the turbo.





















Welding it up.





















It's ungainly-looking, but one contiguous piece.











Finessing it past the headlight and up to the turbo.































Intercooler piping is complete, as is the exhaust.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Cool project - love the 07k :thumbup:


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## Letter K (Jan 8, 2011)

subscribed


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## becker780 (Apr 30, 2013)

subd - LOVE IT


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

What's the plan for ECU and programming? How much is TT harness and how much is Beetle?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Currently we're using a 550cc file from C2Motorsports. The earlier 2.5L series engines used Motronic 7.1.1 ECUs, just as the V6 TT Quattros did. So there is a good deal of cross-pollenation between the platforms. The key to a smooth swap is early 2.5L components from the New Beetle. Very similar to the Mk1 TT.

The engine harness from a 2006-2008 New Beetle should run you ~$100 from a breaker yard. New they cost around $300. The TT's body harness plugs right into the 7.1.1 ECU, although there are several wiring pin-outs to modify.

Car is running.


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Currently we're using a 550cc file from C2Motorsports. The earlier 2.5L series engines used Motronic 7.1.1 ECUs, just as the V6 TT Quattros did. So there is a good deal of cross-pollenation between the platforms. The key to a smooth swap is early 2.5L components from the New Beetle. Very similar to the Mk1 TT.
> 
> The engine harness from a 2006-2008 New Beetle should run you ~$100 from a breaker yard. New they cost around $300. The TT's body harness plugs right into the 7.1.1 ECU, although there are several wiring pin-outs to modify.
> 
> Car is running.


YGM


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Nice work Doug! :thumbup: 




Converted2VW said:


> Paging 46 and 2.
> Can't wait to see this done!


I have been working out of town for the past 2 months, and have atleast a month more to go... That and a sparkling 1.5 carats haveset me back a little.  I'll be back on track soon though. :beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Here is a quick summary of the work being done by NothingLeavesStock over the last few weeks:



nothing-leaves-stock said:


> ...we have a immo defeat ecu now and getting new software on it today. got it to run, has 11 fault codes. some are easy to code out, some are wiring things...





nothing-leaves-stock said:


> ...adam worked most of Friday on it. the car had an issue with running after the key was off AND out of the ignition! he found a few bits that caused that and its starting and turning off as it should now...





nothing-leaves-stock said:


> ...wires everywhere.... but its running, starts, shuts off, revs etc....
> have to figure out the cam solenoid still but almost there.





[email protected] said:


> Per NLS the cam solenoid is on-line, as are the MAF & O2 sensors. All three of these devices are routed through the TT's body harness, which is of course not the same as that in the Beetle. But they've gotten those three biggies sorted, so we are down to smaller wiring stuff and a few leaks from the junkyard-sourced motor. Getting closer to driving it now...





nothing-leaves-stock said:


> update...
> 
> -motor was a junk yard motor, which we did not install. it had coolant leak, oil leak, alt was dead, exhaust leak....so we fixed ALL that
> -got the 02 working
> ...





nothing-leaves-stock said:


> exhaust leak fixed
> oil line redone and installed correctly
> cracked oil filter housing replaced
> Tstat installed and warmed up, fans work
> ...


Really close now..


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## FatAce (Jan 30, 2012)

opcorn:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Josh from NLS took it out for its maiden drive this morning -- followed by billows of oily smoke. The exhaust system was so badly fouled when the 20v motor failed that it needs to be replaced. We'll coordinate that with 42Draft Designs, who supplied the original 3" system. For the meantime, I'm trying to persuade NLS to feel out the car on just the two resonators that FFE installed over the winter.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Nice to see a reasonable hot side on the new turbo. Is that T25 or T3 ?

Should port this to the F23 series, it would drop EGT's a ton and lessen the stresses on the turbo.

Love the 07K build, I wish I would have went this route for my Mk2 but alas I guess it will be a 1.8T.

Can you post up some more wiring information, the who, what, where, why, how to get it all sorted?


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

ejg3855 said:


> Can you post up some more wiring information, the who, what, where, why, how to get it all sorted?



You take the new ecu and harness to your wizard. Then he works his magic for hours and days. Testing and poking, casting spells that even Tesla himself would have his jaw at his feet! Then he finishes... He calls Doug and tells him, "nothing leaves my lair stock. You may pick you car up now."


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

ejg3855 said:


> Can you post up some more wiring information, the who, what, where, why, how to get it all sorted?


The work NLS did to this car would fall under "tricks of the trade" and so they don't share that info. Not even with their customer. But the proof is that the car is working. Here are a couple pix for the last pieces of the puzzle. The custom flange for the turbine exit needed a bit of modification & NLS ran a (temporary) straight piece of pipe out the back of the car. Luckily the exhaust system still has two resonators, so there's at least SOME noise suppression:




















Here's Josh's video from YouTube:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

edited to clean up thread


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

neat project, more tech would make for a great read.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Oh yay, its been building for months, a 5cyl swap into a mk1 that everyone wants to see, and now we get exactly nothing about what the swap actually consists of.


Are you saying NothingLeavesStock is out of line with their decision to keep their methods proprietary? In this thread we've provided a good body of information on the physical challenges of this swap, but I think it's fair for the trades involved to protect information about their solutions.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Oh, trust me. There's plenty coming that wouldn't qualify as glossy magazine content.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Cool, looking forward to it :thumbup:


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## Matt_B (Apr 22, 2010)

Great work, look forward to seeing how this develops and what challenges vs advantages it brings over a stroked engine.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> NLS is now finished with our part of this build.
> we fixed many mechanical issues
> we wired the car up to work with the TT car harness
> runs, drives, boost to 10psi,
> being picked up tomorrow by frankenturbo and then doug will be working with C2motorsports to code and tune the car to his specs



Car is on its way back to FFE for some final touchups to the fuel delivery system and restoration of all sensors. Dyno testing should start next week.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Sticking with the stock intake?


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## elliott18t (Apr 2, 2008)

hmmm to wait for your turbo kit for the 2.5 or get the c2. I really enjoyed the frankenturbo for my GTI though.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Jeebus said:


> Sticking with the stock intake?


That stock intake has two knocks on it:

1. It's long-runner design is reportedly an HP killer. That's why there are so many aftermarket "short runner" intake manifolds available for that motor
2. It's not at all photogenic. In person it looks fine, but in pictures it looks like a cheap, plasticky hand wrapped around the front of the motor

On the plus side, though, it's reportedly able to handle 15+psi of boost pressure without cracking. And if that's true, it's enough to support any stock-motor build.

The FrankenTT-RS is now here at our lavishly-appointed headquarters, where it will remain until after the July 4 holiday. With luck, I can run some baseline logs to get a feel for this motor's personality.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*does your TT sound like this?*


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## 8382 (Feb 18, 2006)

watching opcorn: waiting


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

We're carefully raising the boost/power on this unusual setup. Making use of Eurodyne's BoostManager, we are able to define a boost curve that ramps upward to match increasing engine speeds. Here are some data log graphs to show the results:

Boost, air/fuel mixtures & EGTs:











And the eye candy... mass airflows:











This airflow graph compares the stock-motor 2.5L with our F25 prototype against the earlier 1.8T engine running our F23. Even with the modest boost levels shown above, the 2.5L engine is running very close to what was possible at 25+psi on the original displacement.

And the car runs flawlessly. I'd recommend this swap to anyone.


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## Rford71 (Sep 1, 2011)

What kind of power is this swap producing? I know Bluewater Performance and United Motorsports have been swapping the 2.5 L motor in a lot of R32 for a while now making crazy power.


Rob


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Rford71 said:


> What kind of power is this swap producing? I know Bluewater Performance and United Motorsports have been swapping the 2.5 L motor in a lot of R32 for a while now making crazy power.
> 
> 
> Rob


Our most recent dyno has the car flirting around 300whp. But at the time the file was closing throttle to intervene against the load values. So the chart is uneven.







The plan is to try for 350whp on pump gas. Stock intake manifold, stock motor. We'll then hook up the wmi system to the BoostManager and see what more boost is possible on the OEM, plastic intake manifold.


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## Rford71 (Sep 1, 2011)

Nice Job!


Rob


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

While logging on wet pavement today I felt the front wheels losing traction. The ABS light came on, and along with it I realized the Haldex quattro system isn't functioning. Considering the unconventional nature of this car's hardware, I fear this might be a tough one to root out. But I did come across this in the AWD controller's logging blocks:











The Haldex controller says the parking break is activated. And according to this web-page, such a condition would disable the Haldex clutch. Here's a quote from that page:

_Parking Brake Warning Light F9

This switch is located under the parking brake lever.

Signal Utilization

F9 sends the “parking brake engaged” signal simultaneously to ABS Control Module J104 and the Haldex control module J492.

If the signal generated by F9 is picked up, the Haldex coupling clutch is opened.

Effects of Signal Failure

If the switch remains closed, then no allwheel drive control is available and restrictions are placed on ABS control.

Parking Brake Warning Light F9_









The odd thing is that the parking brake ISN'T engaged. Although the dash cluster does always show the BRAKE light activated...dimly. The light comes on fully when the parking brake is used, so I assume the switch itself is ok. Could a fault in the dash cluster cause an incorrect signal going to the Haldex?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Could a fault in the dash cluster cause an incorrect signal going to the Haldex?


I'm going to answer my question with a qualified "yes". A replacement cluster eliminates the dim brake warning light on the dash, and nets this result in the AWD controller:










Before declaring, "Case closed!" I need another rainy day to test traction.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

So the quattro system is active. 






But it's not right. The quattro is slipping, and that's clearly visible on the dyno printout:










To trouble-shoot this we'll drain the Haldex fluid and inspect both the filter and cargo pump pickup. If both look clean, then the pump gets replaced. I'll post more detail in this thread here.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Is there a fault in the ABS data?*

The car didn't make it in to the techs today, so I thought I'd cover off the possibility that the ABS wheel speed sensors are somehow not communicating with the ECU. Logging blocks 001-002 in the ABS controller shows communication to be working. And it also shows the front wheels spinning.

*Worthwhile note: when the ABS controller is open, the Haldex system is temporarily disabled. So the front wheels were bound to spin during the log.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> But it's not right. The quattro is slipping...
> 
> To trouble-shoot this we'll drain the Haldex fluid and inspect both the filter and cargo pump pickup. If both look clean, then the pump gets replaced.


The Haldex filter was very fouled, and more sludge was present in the fluid:




















The filter screen on the cargo pump was less dirty.











With this service done, power is being distributed as it should. The front tires do not break traction. I was surprised the service interval for the Haldex is so short. The car has run probably 3000 miles since previous. This can only be attributed to the type of duty the hardware is seeing. The car is a test bed, and sees full power virtually all the time.


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## F3t1sh (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks doug for keeping us updated and posting what resolved issues and what you've found.
Great work! :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Another resolved issue: cruise control. the fault with it was owing simply to the clutch position sensor behind the lower dash panel. After buying this part..

http://www.ecstuning.com/ES516014/

...the cruise control system was back in operation. It's worth noting that block 066 in the VAG-COM Engine Controller did NOT show any error with the switch. And also, this switch is NOT the one that signals the clutch pedal is down before ignition. That one sits higher up in the recess behind the dashboard.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A few seconds of video of the car while recently on the dyno. This pull was good for only a touch over 310whp, but with a few adjustments to the boost mapping in BoostManager we got a few more out of it:







On the topic of the BoostManager, we're re-configuring it to directly monitor voltage of the mass air meter's signal. This will allow for independent verification of the airflow values being reported over OBD and recorded in VAGCOM. Why do this? Because the VAGCOM airflows don't square with the actual power being put down. Clearly there is some scaling going on in the ECU's mapping that's distorting the values. More on that in a bit, but here's a picture of the signal tap on the wiring harness. In the left background you can see the N75 valve, which the BoostManager is driving to control boost.











C2Motorsports provided me with the "primer" of voltage-to-airflows mapping for the R32 MAF setup being run in the car. To review, the current MAF configuration is a larger 76mm ID housing with an -047 series naturally-aspirated sensor. This is the exact assembly used in the R32 V6 motors. So the stock -047 sensor in a larger R32 MAF housing reports voltage signals by airflow in accordance with this map:











I'd imagine a number of folks who are following this thread are asking themselves, "do I need to know what this weird scale means?" And the answer is NO. You don't. The only reason I'm posting such arcane background info is just to "show my work", so to speak. And this work is what allows a direct measurement of the airflows through the motor. The voltage straight off the sensor works out to exactly this airflow:











If you skip over the back-pressures measurement, you'll see it: roughly 270 grams/second of airflow. That's pretty darned good for a stock 2.5L motor breathing through the restrictive, stock, plastic 2.5L intake manifold. But I can't say it's _great_. Those ~270g/s airflows are the product of ~18psi of top-end boost. And that translates to a lousy ~77% volumetric efficiency. Look at how the metered airflows and boost levels translate to engine VE:











This is a snapshot of the boost levels etc.










The 2.5L motor stock from the scrapyard isn't suited to huge airflow expectations, that much I've decided. It needs a proper intake manifold. And it might need cams as well. But the car is verging on 330whp. And there's plenty of torque at 2000rpms up. So it's certainly a fun street-car setup. And it's a daily wonder how well it functions despite the unconventional mechanicals.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Deatschwerks 650v for quattro installed*

Small update: the FrankenTT is a quattro, which historically has limited upgrade options for the fuel pump. But 034Motorsports has assembled a kit using the Deatschwerks 650v pump. Using that kit, the higher-output Deatschwerks unit dropped in with about 30 minutes of work.




















On their product specification page, Deatschwerks lists this pump as capable of supporting nearly 600bhp at 30psi of boost. That's so good, we pulled out our "FrankenPump" from inline in the fuel system and will run only the 650v. Here is a graph showing the flow capability.











We'll see how well it works as we push the 2.5L engine up to and past 300 grams/second of air. If it holds up, then this is a terrific mod for the money. Heck, it qualifies as a simple maintenance item.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

What it is!!

02M transmission, 3rd gear. Who here can crack 3.xx?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

While at ForceFed Engineering last week to dyno-test our newly-designed MixedFlow rotor F21T, I decided to put the 2.5L car on the rollers as well. The F25 turbo car ran fine, but we experienced significant wheel slip during the session. Since my main interest was to find out whether torque was too high, the mis-read by the dyno was worrisome. So I'm going to post up some pix from that flawed session, largely to warn potential customers against the false comfort of a low reading. So here's the sheet:











That torque curve looks really safe. But during the pulls you could hear the irregular-sounding run-up of power. You could see it in the data logs too. So we looked more closely at the DynoJet's report. When we added a graph to show engine revs by speed, the slippage was obvious:











So the dyno wasn't capturing the motor's true output. I decided to turn to previous data for some clues. A couple of years ago this car was running our smaller F23 turbo on a 20v 1.8T displacement. At its best the car was seeing over 300whtq. And at that time, its airflow rates compare to the F25 like this:

Red is the 1.8T
Black is the 07K 2.5L











Two comparisons are being graphed here: mass airflow per second and mass airflow per engine revolution. As you can see, the 2.5L is pumping more air before boost kicks in, but gets overtaken when the F23 went into boost (30psi of it). But towards the top end the F25 catches up and overpasses the 1.8T's flow. And the dyno sheets pretty much reflect that. Here are the two setups:











My guess is the F25 is running a peak torque value about where the 1.8T was. But it's not so easy to tell if the tires break traction. Which raises a question for me: what's the point of all that torque if your front tires can't handle it? Thank you, Audi, for quattro.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

New turbo to test. This time the F25 has a bigger billet compressor wheel, a new turbine housing & our exclusive MixedFlow rotor. Some pix:




















If you're thinking the manifold in the first shot looks suspiciously like our 1.8T-fitment ChinaFold, well it is. The F25 is going to be available for the 20v motor as well as the 07K 2.5L. But first we need to do a bit of shakedown on the new design. Here is a quick look at how it performs on "spring pressure" with the actuator preloaded to 12psi:











Pretty stable, with just a whiff of boost creep through the range. Next we'll try it at 14psi.

dh


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

That's interesting! Looks like a re-designed turbine housing. Better flow potential than the K04-02X turbine housing clones we're accustomed to with 02X-based hybrids? Also, how is that mix flow rotor compared to the old F23 spec ones in terms of size and flow (mostly interested in growth in size then improvements in design characteristics)? What would you say the F25 power potential is in comparison to the F23 (in 02X format)?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

You had me at "new turbine housing," any pics? opcorn:


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## jsmith2015 (Mar 7, 2015)

Ya I have been on the fence about a hybrid for a wile and never could decide on one,mostly because they all are very similar. This is something new I'm in.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> You had me at "new turbine housing," any pics? opcorn:


You aren't following our promotional thread over in the 2.5L tech forum? That's ok. I'll repost the picture of the turbine housing assembled:











On the 2.5L engine the new design is...how do I put this? Well, it's just a lot _better_ than my first try. I can tell the turbo just feels more at home with the engine. Plus its compressor sound is a little more pronounced, which increases the Batmobile soundtrack even more. Some logs taken today:


















The ~285g/s airflows value is a great benchmark for marketing a turbo package to the 2.5L community. That value is higher than possible with a BorgWarner K04 on any TSI or FSI car. This means the owner of a "lowly" Rabbit can spank any stock-frame turbo GTI he comes across...unless it has a FrankenTurbo also.


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## jsmith2015 (Mar 7, 2015)

I have a 2001 Audi TT with an awp I would be willing to test this turbo out on. Wink Wink.

When can we expect release of this turbo for the 1.8 and can we expect down pipe adapters like for the f23.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks Doug, that's obviously more impressive than the standard housing, I wonder about this with a Relentless v4...


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## bwdz (Jan 21, 2015)

jsmith2015 said:


> I have a 2001 Audi TT with an awp I would be willing to test this turbo out on. Wink Wink.
> 
> When can we expect release of this turbo for the 1.8 and can we expect down pipe adapters like for the f23.


That picture looks like a 1.8t exhaust manifold


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Thanks Doug, that's obviously more impressive than the standard housing, I wonder about this with a Relentless v4...


I'd hoped to do a side-by-side comparison of our ChinaFold with the production version of that V4. Over a year ago we tested a prototype for the V4 and found the "gooseneck" design to be restrictive. So they revised that section with a larger bore tube, which likely helps. Oddly, though, Relentless isn't willing to let us test the finished product, saying we'll just disparage it in favor of our ChinaFold. I couldn't convince them that we're a turbocharger manufacturer, not a manifold manufacturer. If the V4 were the better unit, I'd pair THAT to our F23 over the ChinaFold. But any determination of that question will have to come from somewhere else.



bwdz said:


> That picture looks like a 1.8t exhaust manifold


That's our ChinaFold. The F25T for transversal 1.8T cars will be paired with our ChinaFold and have an adapter flange for compatibility with the stock downpipe. This turbo will be virtually a bolt-on for the K04-based TT225 cars.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

jaidajoker said:


> Curious, with the v2 F25, are you sacrificing a little power for quicker spool?


Based on the logging runs I did this afternoon, I really don't feel there's much sacrifice in the equation. As you guys know, I have _this thing_ for small turbos. But the new MixedFlow design doesn't feel undersized at all. Take a look at some graphs:











That's an aggressive boost profile. And because the fueling system isn't receiving boost feedback as in most "returning" fuel systems, we're seeing the ECU struggle to meet air/fuel mixtures correctly. But that can be sorted out pretty easily in software I think. And despite the mixture tending towards lean, the EGTs are still in the low-to-mid 900's Celsius. That's a good result.

Here are the data from the Eurodyne BoostManager's logger:











The mass air meter is getting "soaked" just shy of 300 grams/second. I've considered that value to be a kind of Holy Grail for this turbo. A nice round number, it's also about the amount the Subie guys are getting on their 2.5L STIs with aftermarket turbos. I'm impressed by how solid the valve train on this motor seems. If you look at the backpressure values behind the cylinder head's exhaust valves, they're holding well against nearly 60psi of pressure. That's every bit as good as what a 20v 1.8T cylinder head can support.











The downside is too much engine knock. These values are really hurting ignition advance. So if you're looking for a limiter, there it is. What it's not is:


Stock intake manifold
Stock cylinder head
Stock pistons
Stock connecting rods

And that's impressive for a "cheap" motor that never was supposed to see forced air injection. It makes me comfortable saying, "Let's Do This".


Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Water methanol is being fitted to the car this week, and Ryan at C2Motorsports has already sent an aggressive timing map for use with it. If things go to plan, we'll dyno it at FFE Friday.

The project is nearing its end. Car runs well and the turbo design work is done. Sooner than later, this car will need to find a new home to make way for other projects. Let's see if we can get a sexy whp value to send the car off with.

:beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I took advantage of a beautiful spring day to do some hands-on tinkering with the WMI kit. Here are some pix of the USRT throttle-body spacer and the related parts. This spacer has a CNC-machined "block" that accepts the WMI feed and then directs it to twin ports that straddle the throttle valve hinge. Interesting design.






































In these pictures I have nozzles fitted that combine for 300ml/min of flow. That's short of ideal for a 400+bhp setup, so I am ordering in larger nozzles.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Today we plumbed in the pressure transducer, which feeds signal into the gauge cluster for display. This system will be running right around 1000psi, pretty up there for pressure. But the resulting atomization nets super fast evaporation in the intake manifold plenum. a couple pix of that progress:


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## 225TTed (Nov 28, 2014)

Whoa! A working MFD! :laugh::laugh:


j/k, that's pretty damn cool, though.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I should talk to Sean Tate of the (dearly departed) Supreme Technology Engineering. i might be able to persuade him to give me a firmware update for the Performance Parameters Display that shows "WMI" rather than "FUEL"


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

This 7 + 7 blade compressor wheel just showed up from our manufacturer. Let's put it in and see what's what.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The new MixedFlow turbo is doing nicely on its 14psi base actuator pressure. Here's a look


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The FrankenTT is still keeping busy on the product testing front. So lately it's been getting a beauty makeover in the form of H-beam connecting rods from INA Engineering and a high performance intake manifold from C2Motorsports. As an added bonus, Issam Abed also furnished a set of 10.5:1 FSI-engine pistons/rings. So the car is definitely going to be changed.











Before we can reassemble the car with its new motor, it is time to tackle the TT225 O2M-series transmission's "clutch creep" that's dogged the car (and many others) for some time. The issue is caused by physical wear to the transmission case, which over time allows lateral play in the entire assembly. And that play degrades clutch performance. ForceFed's Ed Woolsey has an aggressive fix: he machines away a portion of the transmission housing and installs a steel bearing. Here's a picture of the case post-machining:











And here is his description of the modification:

_We removed the entire width of the magnesium case where the input shaft roller bearing circlip is retained, then bored a specified amount down to accept a steel ring. This creates a concentric and specific outer diameter so our propietary steel ring can be pressed in, permanently fixing the end play._​

So add another thing to look forward to when the car is back up and running: a good-as-new clutch.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

opcorn:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

In she goes...


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## Yak Meat (Sep 28, 2011)

Awesome build! Sub'd HARD


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Yak Meat said:


> Awesome build! Sub'd HARD


Here's where things get more awesome-er. Or where they might simply fall apart.

This new motor has no power steering pump. The majority of 2.5L-engine cars have steering systems with the powered assist coming from a motor on the steering racks. And since the pulley-driven pump variants are in short supply, they get no tuning support. So when the time came to do the major upgrade of an aftermarket intake manifold, we had no choice but to eliminate the pump from the accessory rack.

Look at where the pulley-driven pump lives on the 2.5Ls that have one:











Because of its clumsy location at the top of the motor, the stock intake has to contort its way around it to the cylinder head. 











Such a long, circuitous route from manifold plenum to the combustion chamber is no friend to high-end hp. So the aftermarket companies all offer "short runner" intakes such as this one from C2Motorsports:











Spiffy, ain't it? And here it is now, in the FrankenTT:











Granted, it's no longer as pretty, pretty, shiny at this stage. But who cares. If it's all that it's cracked up to be we'll soon be seeing north of 400awhp from the motor.


But that leaves the problem of no power steering. Well, thanks to some solid pointers from experts in the 07K-engine performance community, we've identified a solution. 

This.











You're looking at the electric power steering pump from the Toyota MR2. A popular mod for numerous platforms, it has the huge advantage of incorporating its own high-amperage controller. So there's no need for separate relays. And it can also be fed vehicle speed to modulate its output. Here is a bit more info on the pump:




















At the beginning of the post I mentioned the possibility of things "falling apart". And that's because right now the big question of _where to put this gizmo_ is hanging over our heads. But I have faith in the evergreen fabrication ingenuity of FFE's Ed Woolsey. Let's see what he is able to cook up for the project.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Progress!

Pump is installed, taking the place of the external oil cooler:











The oil cooler gets relocated to under the passenger side:











And the clumsy, windy power steering return hard-lines get replaced with this nifty power steering fluid cooler:











Here's a look at the wiring. Pretty simple, just the relay as shown in the pictures above, and an inline fuse. The ignition 12v signal comes from under the dash.











The car is up and running. And that's a good thing, because it's slated for sale at the beginning of next month. We have to get the new engine broken in and put on the dyno. I have high hopes for 400+ awhp. And then the FrankenTT goes off into the sunset.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> _We removed the entire width of the *magnesium case* where the input shaft roller bearing circlip is retained, then bored a specified amount down to accept a steel ring. This creates a concentric and specific outer diameter so our propietary steel ring can be pressed in, permanently fixing the end play._​




Cases are not magnesium, they are the same cast aluminum as 02A/J transmissions. The belief that they are is old forum folklore without any information to back it up. The composition is as follows 

XRF scan resulted in these percentages:
Al 98.98% (Aluminum)
Zn .817% (Zinc)
Cu .015% (Copper)
Fe .031% (Iron)
Mn .161% (Manganese)


Carry on.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The electric pump from the Toyota MR2 Spyder is working very well. Here is a short video we took just after powering it up. Aside from a couple of easily-sorted leaks it is finished. I had been really skeptical about the pump's ability to regulate itself, but sure enough it does. When there is no input from the steering wheel the pump idles down. When the wheel is moved at all, it quickly spins up to provide assist. The pump itself is almost inaudible over the sound of the engine at idle, but if you listen really closely during the second half of this video you can hear its faint whirring sound.







I am really surprised to find this is such a viable mod. Of course it's got limited application in our cars. Really it's only for those who'd entertain a 2.5L engine mod. But it works.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

DeckManDubs said:


> Cases are not magnesium, they are the same cast aluminum as 02A/J transmissions. The belief that they are is old forum folklore without any information to back it up. The composition is as follows
> 
> XRF scan resulted in these percentages:
> Al 98.98% (Aluminum)
> ...


Good info - thanks for posting :thumbup:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

All_Euro said:


> Good info - thanks for posting :thumbup:


:beer:


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