# General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit?



## jeffjohnson1 (Apr 12, 2007)

I am seriously thinking about purchasing one of the roofmodules pros for my new EOS, but wanted to get some general impressions from everyone before I shell out the cash. Is it really worth it? I think that the features are worth the cost if it is reliable and if it will not cause problems or trouble with service or warranty. Also, the advertisement seemed to have a reference at the bottom mentioning electric seat memory, but there is not description or detail - is this really a function that is offered on this unit - if so, that would cement the deal for me as I always hate having to reset the seats and mirrors after my wife drives my new baby. Of course, the logical solution is to prevent her from driving it, but purchasing a roof module is less expensive than alimony. 
JJ


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jeffjohnson1)*

Hi Jeff,
This is the problem with this particular guy. I find his website less then ideal. Many broken links and not a great description of what you will get. I would be curious how the turbo boost gauge looks but the link to the picture of it is broken. I've also read from various posts that this module is a bit finicky but once working seems to work well. I'm pretty sure it does not have memory seats for the Eos. The Eos does not have position sensors on the mirrors or seats so if a controller could command the mirror/seats to move it would only be a timed response, a guess at where they should be.
As for causing an issue with warranty that's an open ended question. Some think if you have a problem with the roof and the dealer can trace the cause to the roof module they can void that portion of your warranty. Do a search here on roof module and you'll see many discussions. 
-Erik


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (solarflare)*

I can answer some of these...
Install - went ok. Being a novice with cars did not help. Being techie did... so in the end (3 hrs install) mine has been perfect.
Support - was timely once I got through his spam program. Manual was B/W and I found better instruction on a competitor's website.
Memory Seats - nope. I'm lucky since my wife does not have interest in driving it.
Turbo boost - yes it works. You must set the display prior moving since you can not access the information screens (at least in my experience... not that I am interested in this feature).
*Wow factor* - priceless. I friend's wife was looking at getting an EOS. When I opened with the remote, he said that he didn't think that was possible.
I should have gotten the base one... cheaper. I don't plan on opening the roof at 40mph nor do I use the mirror/reverse feature. 
If I got a different convertible, I'd get one of these again. Also, I plan on removing prior to any shop/warranty work.








Hope this helps,
Greg


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## wkc (Mar 25, 2007)

I've never open up any car before and it took me just a bit over 1 hour to install it. I got the competitor's one so I followed the instruction from their website site and their color print out. Very easy to follow.
Now I so get use to the roof module functionalities, I just cannot imagine a conv without it.


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## pjouvence (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jeffjohnson1)*

I agree with Erik.
I got mine and had to use the competitor website to remove the interior of my car. The manual coming with the mod is good for nothing. All of the features anounced on the website don't work independently as descried (the miror assist works only with the reverse mod on (lights and horn)). I am in contact with the tech suport for a while now and they can't admit that there is something wrong with the mod: it is my fault because I did not conect the wires right. After checking 5 times (means putting the car in parts 5 times (I am an expert now, do it in less than 10 minutes) and sending a certain amount of emails to tech suport, their answer is still the same. I am basically an idiot witch cannot connect one wire right. Being a kind of tech guy, I am offended of their answer. I finally got an RMA to send the mod back to be tested but I told them I will send the mod only when I receive a new one. I am kind of tired of removing the inerior of the car. Since this email, no answer.
For the good part, and I agree with Erik, the WOW factor is great and I am stock now because I got used of the features wich are working... Will keep you posted.


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (pjouvence)*

I got the LCT module when it first came out mainly for the remote control roof feature which is a very nice feature to have. I definitely will not use it while the car is in motion as I have experienced damage as a result. Originally we were promised free ugrades for life; however, LCT now charges $80 (less a $30 forum discount -big whoop as consolation to a broken promise). I had to send mine in for some serious flaws in the original coding and had to pay the $50. It took over a month to get back with countless follow up. The unit still is not perfect as it overrides any convertible status messages on the PDM. I would strongly caution anyone to do business with LCT. If you purchase make sure your paypal account is linked to your credit card to give you the greatest protection. If paypal is linked to your checking account, you will have limited recourse for dispute.


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (pjouvence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pjouvence* »_I am in contact with the tech suport for a while now and they can't admit that there is something wrong with the mod: it is my fault because I did not conect the wires right... 
I am basically an idiot witch cannot connect one wire right.

This was my experience exactly.
Without bashing anyone, I have had experience with both the forum sponsor and mods4cars. The difference is night and day and I have had nothing but a very positive experience with the mods4cars folks.


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jgermuga)*

As another data point, I have no experience with lct, but got the mods4cars module. Installed it without any problems from the colour manual that came with it. Worked first time. Never had any problems with it after 3 months of heavy use, and it's very unobtrusive and easy to configure. When I emailed about future features I got a prompt and courteous reply.
I don't have a single negative comment. Hope that helps you make a decision.
Jason


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*

I have not gotten one. I would rather not have any questions when it comes to warranty work on my roof. VW is strongly against this modification and I believe they are working on a way to track these. I would love the remote feature but I just would not love dealing with a potentially very expensive problem with the roof. 
I expect neither of these people will pay for problems with the roof that occur from using this type of product outside the scope of the roofs design?


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*

I uninstalled my LCT module... I can say no more.


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

I _never_ installed my Mods4Cars module...







Warranty is just worth too much to risk it. Sad, because the modules are not cheap.


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## richard_eos (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EOSmage)*

have a look at this before buying from lct:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...41360
http://www.myspace.com/lctuningscrewedus
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3031452


_Modified by richard_eos at 3:35 PM 5-10-2007_


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## pjouvence (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

Hi Mark,
did you send the mod back and get a refund?


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (pjouvence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pjouvence* »_Hi Mark,
did you send the mod back and get a refund?

Refund...ha, ha. That's funny.


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## LuckyInChicago (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*

If I were either of those two companies, I'd try and work with VW to create a version of the module that removes the roof-while-driving functionality so we have a supported, non-warranty-whacking way to do the two big things VW should have included from the get-go (one-touch and remote open/close)...
I sure hope at least one of them is trying!


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## wkc (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*

one-touch and remote open/close would have some safety and liability issue. I'm sure that's why they don't have such functionality included.

_Quote, originally posted by *EosEnthusiastNB* »_I have not gotten one. I would rather not have any questions when it comes to warranty work on my roof. 

Once you have it installed yourself, you can tell you can easily open it up and remove it just as easy. When I need them to work on my roof, I think I'll remove it just to be sure.


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (LuckyInChicago)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LuckyInChicago* »_If I were either of those two companies, I'd try and work with VW to create a version of the module that removes the roof-while-driving functionality so we have a supported, non-warranty-whacking way to do the two big things VW should have included from the get-go (one-touch and remote open/close)...
I sure hope at least one of them is trying!









Agreed. I think the ability to open the roof while the car is moving would present too much risk. I can certainly see why VW would not cover this under warrenty. If this feature were removed, I think the chance to include the others features would be better. 
I would encourage the aftermarket makers to provide a unit which does not allow this. If VW does decide to void the warranty on the roof, the direct impact would be much worse on the product provider than the users. Their sales would probably dry up over night.
I think VW could offer this feature without too much problem and at a limited cost. It's a microchip, firm ware and some wiring. Once it is incorported into the production build, I bet it would cost less than 100 per unit. 
So I am guessing it was strickly a numbers issue. They probably looked at the additional liability and warranty risk and determined they would not make enough $$$ to cover the added benefit. The bottom line to them is how many more cars would it sell and how much would it cost to support.


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EosEnthusiastNB* »_I have not gotten one. I would rather not have any questions when it comes to warranty work on my roof....

There is no question about the risk to the warranty if you install a roof module, and that's something that any prospective buyer needs to take seriously into account. It's simply an untested area right now. In time I'm sure there will be cases that will set the precedent.
Many things in life are a balance of cost/benefit/risk. The thing to do is make a conscious and informed decision.
Jason


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*

Is the UK warranty 1 year or 4 years.. 
Remember that warranty decisions are in the hands of the distributer, not the manufacturer..


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

BTW, it appears LCT are not longer our forum sponsor. I've asked Vortex mgt to confirm this..


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (wkc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wkc* »_one-touch and remote open/close would have some safety and liability issue. I'm sure that's why they don't have such functionality included.

While that's probably true, it can't be insurmountable since other car manufactures have these features, e.g. MB, Opal etc


_Quote, originally posted by *wkc* »_Once you have it installed yourself, you can tell you can easily open it up and remove it just as easy. When I need them to work on my roof, I think I'll remove it just to be sure.

IMHO I don't think it's possible to completely remove ALL traces of having installed a roof module, since you have to crimp into the +12V, 0V wires to give the module power. While the crimps can be removed, a *very keen* engineer would still be able to find the cut in the insulating sheath.
Jason


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

Mark,
UK warranty is actually 3 years and we only get 1 year roadside assistance which really sucks.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*

And also, remember that if you keep removing and installing a crimp sooner or later you will have a broken wire.....


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_UK warranty is actually 3 years and we only get 1 year roadside assistance which really sucks.


I'm guessing that's got something to do with Lancaster bombers over various areas in Germany a few years back. Kinda the same reason why the USA gets very limited options while Italy gets whatever they want.


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_And also, remember that if you keep removing and installing a crimp sooner or later you will have a broken wire..... 

Absolutely.
The fact is, if you install it you are taking an action that doesn't have a full undo button. You are taking a risk. Simple as that. 
My car is due in to a VW roof specialist to fix a roof leak in 2 weeks. I'm not going to remove the module, I'm just going to disable it. While I think the chances of them finding the roof module and not fixing the leak under warranty because of it are small, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at all worried about it.
Jason


_Modified by The Fig at 3:03 PM 5-11-2007_


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_
...Kinda the same reason why the USA gets very limited options while Italy gets whatever they want.

I actually really really sympathize with you guys about not being able to custom spec your cars. It would really piss me off to know there was cool stuff out there that I simply could not have regardless of how much money I was willing to spend. And that's the bit that doesn't make sense to me.
While others might argue that it keeps the costs down for the US market to have limited options (my car cost the equivalent of nearly $60K), if a customer is willing to pay, even if the costs are very high, the options should be made available. 
Willing customers prevented from paying good money for options available in other markets and coming from the same factory doesn't make sense in any business plan IMHO. If it is genuinely too expensive from an overall process point of view to make these options available to the US market, then there are some serious efficiency issues that need to be addressed.
Jason


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*

It's mainly a mentally issue.. The majority of US customers (and dealers) expect to drive off in thier new car within a day or two of agreeing the deal. The US market in general is not set up for order and wait metally (at least on the low and mid-range). 
I guess that the execption here is the factory delivery option offered by some manufacturers...
Most people are stunned to find I waited nearly 6 months for delivery of my EOS..


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_
Absolutely.
The fact is, if you install it you are taking an action that doesn't have a full undo button. 


Jason,
I saw someone post a question about purchasing the VW harness plugs that fit the roof controller in the trunk. 
I would have to look at the wiring again to be sure, but if you are able to purchase both the male and female plug, I think you could wire it such that it _could be_ completely removed by just unplugging it, rather than having to mess with pulling pins from the existing harness plug.
Anyone tried this?


_Modified by jgermuga at 11:05 AM 5-11-2007_


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_It's mainly a mentally issue.. Most people are stunned to find I waited nearly 6 months for delivery of my EOS..

Mark,
that's the bit that makes the least sense to me. If they are making you wait 6 months anyway, which as you say goes completely against the mainstream mentality, you may as well get exactly what you want.
(Apologies to Jeffrey as this is completely off topic)
Jason


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jgermuga)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jgermuga* »_...if you are able to purchase both the male and female plug, I think you could wire it such that it _could be_ completely removed by just unplugging it, rather than having to mess with pulling pins from the existing harness plug.

That sounds perfect and I would definitely invest in that if it existed.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_
Mark,
that's the bit that makes the least sense to me. If they are making you wait 6 months anyway, which as you say goes completely against the mainstream mentality, you may as well get exactly what you want.
(Apologies to Jeffrey as this is completely off topic)
Jason

Of course in my case I did get exactly what I wanted since "I wanted it all"







Well there was the slight screwup with the iPOD adaptor but it was taken care of in the end.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_
That sounds perfect and I would definitely invest in that if it existed.

At one point I discussed this with LCT. Thier answer was it would make the cables too long.. However given that came from LCT I'm not suer I would necessarily regard that as a technically correct answer


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_
At one point I discussed this with LCT. Thier answer was it would make the cables too long.. However given that came from LCT I'm not suer I would necessarily regard that as a technically correct answer









I think it would fit OK. You might have some difficulty tucking it all in neatly, but I am not sure why this would matter.
Maybe the wire length affects the impedenceand is part of what the controler interprets to know it is working right? Ceretainly not my specialty.


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jgermuga)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jgermuga* »_
I saw someone post a question about purchasing the VW harness plugs that fit the roof controller in the trunk. 
Anyone tried this?

I was the one that was doing the research on that. I found that it was really easy to get the female side of the adapter (you can order that part directly from VW, in fact). Since the MALE connector is actually mounted onto the controller circuit board, it is much harder to find the male connector in a non surface-mount format. 
Actually, I was unable to find it at all. So, we can order the female connector, the VW wire and pins for the connector, but we can NOT get the male connector.
That is where I stopped with my installation of the Mods4cars module. I was (and am) unwilling to break the insulation on the +12v and Ground wires. Once you "crimp" into those wires there is no way to reverse it. The insulation is cut, and eventually the wire will break from movement if that connector isn't there to provide structure.
I really tried to get a wiring harness together for this, but it is just not easily available. I guess this is why the module makers don't offer that harness as an optional purchase. They choose to get us to remove pins from the existing connectors in order to resolve this... And they expect us to permanently crimp/damage the factory wiring.
Ugh...
I'm still trying to sell my unused Mods4cars module. I'm taking "reasonable" offers...


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EOSmage)*

Jonathan,
I'll ask around the high ranked Geeks (affectionate term) in my office and see if they know where to source these bits. Maybe somewhere like here:
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rs...scape
I'll post up if I find anything.
Jason


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EOSmage)*

Not having a module to look at or knowing first hand where this module is located, if the only two permanent mods are splicing into the ground and 12 volt wires you could connect the ground to any metal surface in the area and you could run a new 12 volt lead from the fuse panel. This way if they look for this module all they would see is a 12 volt supply wire added but capped off or you could even take this out or hide it. They have know way of proving what the 12 volt wire was for. Really, even if they saw broken insulation on the 12 volt and ground wires they don't have any way to prove you installed a roof module. It could have been some lighting or another 12volt auxiliary socket that you no longer needed.
Now if VW really was on the warpath of these modules I would think they could easily write software that could detect what was on the data bus or monitor for "unauthorized" commands and store this information for later display. If mods4cars would offer a module without the ability to operate when moving I would get one today.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (solarflare)*

Actually the LCT comes with a wire and connector that attached to one of the official grounding connectors, but a splice for the 12V...


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## pjouvence (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

Following all the problems I had with the LCT mod, I removed it...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jeffjohnson1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jeffjohnson1* »_I am seriously thinking about purchasing one of the roofmodules pros for my new EOS, but wanted to get some general impressions from everyone before I shell out the cash. 

Guys and Girls:
Now that LCT is no longer an advertiser here on Vortex (that in itself is a whole other story), I can now speak very freely and without hindrance about all these roof modules - LCT, Mods4Cars, Pro, whatever:
*Don't go near them!* Don't even accept one as a free gift!
First off, the only reason VW did not give us all the ability to operate the roof while the vehicle is in motion is because the structural components of the roof are not designed to tolerate ANY form of vibration or movement of the vehicle while they are operating. The vehicle has to be stopped, still, stationary when the roof is in operation for engineering reasons, not for legal reasons. If the engineers had been required to design the roof to operate while the vehicle was in motion, all the arms, brackets, pistons, and so forth would be as large and as robust as the landing gear on a Boeing 737. As you know, they are not that big.
Second, because of the 'scissors' action of many of the components involved in the roof, it is impossible for VW to build in pinch protection that would stop and reverse the roof if anyone got a finger, arm, or object caught in the mechanism while it was operating. This is why the driver is required to _a)_ sit in the car, and _b)_ hold the switch in place through the whole extension and retraction process. It is not a USA lawyer thing, because all Eos roofs worldwide are like this. It is a 'human safety' and a 'roof component safety' issue.
We have already had a report from one owner who installed a roof module and suffered damage to his roof as a result of operating it while in motion. We have had numerous reports of owners who encountered all sorts of flaky electronics problems in areas other than the roof after installing a module. Sooner or later, we are going to get a report of an owner who has had an accident because something (a person's limb or an object from the back seat or the trunk) gets caught in the roof while it is operating by remote control from a module.
VW absolutely hates these roof modules, because they are justifiably worried that stress fractures will develop in roof components as a result of vibrations and shocks encountered when the roof is operated while the vehicle is in motion. I know for a fact that VW is modifying the diagnostic software used worldwide at VW dealerships to detect the presence of any aftermarket roof module, and if one is found, that will be the end of all warranty coverage for the roof assembly.
Furthermore - all the software used by these roof module vendors is based on programming and software specifications that were stolen (yes, *stolen*) from the roof manufacturer during the roof development process. This alone explains why the manufactures of all these modules simply cannot provide satisfactory support for the modules when owners report problems. If the software used in the roof modules is based on stolen programming that is one or two years old, there is no way in the world that they will be able to cope with changes in VW equipment or controllers that take place later as part of VW's continuous product improvement process. This explains why the roof controllers don't work on the Australian cars, why they don't work on cars that have certain newer options installed, etc.
Plain and simple: *Don't even think about getting a roof module!*. I think most of you know that I am one of the most enthusiastic and productive retrofitters on the forum - I'm constantly retrofitting European VW options to my North American VW - but I stick to retrofitting OEM components. It's safer, it's more fun, it doesn't mess up my warranty, and VW is around to support us (unofficially, of course) if we encounter any problems. As for these Goddamn roof modules - *they are toxic*, plain and simple. Don't go there.
Michael


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## richard_eos (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

*I totally NOT agree.* 
I'm getting full support from my roof module vendor (wilhelmy), I have it on written paper, that's their own developed and written software and I'm very happy to operate the top with my key remote.
I'm loving it to start the opening process while opening the doors, getting in, starting the engine...in my eyes, a MUST HAVE FEATURE.
It's simply the best mod I ever did on a convertible and I highly recommend it!
Richard


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## wkc (Mar 25, 2007)

My EOS is less than 1 month old and my Mods4cars roof module is working perfectly fine with mine. No flaky electronic problems or anything. When I need the car to be serviced by VW, I'll remove it to avoid warantee issue. Just my 1 cent.










_Modified by wkc at 9:53 PM 5-13-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (richard_eos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *richard_eos* »_I totally NOT agree.

Richard, I can fully understand why you don't agree. Every single one of the posts that you have made here on Vortex since you joined about 6 months ago have been 'fanboi' posts praising the benefits of the Wilhelmy roof module. I quite strongly suspect that you have a less than arm's length relationship with the manufacturer of that roof module.
Michael


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## richard_eos (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

well, that's your opinion because you cannot believe that there are customers like me, who are totally committed to the aftermarket roof modules from mods4cars.
But that's not a problem for me.
Compared to your statement:
"Furthermore - all the software used by these roof module vendors is based on programming and software specifications that were stolen (yes, stolen) from the roof manufacturer during the roof development process. "
which attacks all roof module developers in general and without any evidence. I would be really careful with statements like this. I'm not a lawyer but I believe that there are laws agains these false pretences.
Richard


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## cruisefan (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: (wkc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wkc* »_My EOS is less than 1 month old and my Mods4cars roof module is working perfectly fine with mine. No flaky electronic problems or anything. When I need the car to be serviced by VW, I'll remove it to avoid warantee issue. Just my 1 cent.










Yes, same over here...no problems at all with the mods4cars module. I've had several emails with the company wilhelmy and mr. wilhelmy seems to be a qualified, friendly and professional can bus developer.
cruisefan


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I think most of you know that I am one of the most enthusiastic and productive retrofitters on the forum - I'm constantly retrofitting European VW options to my North American VW - but I stick to retrofitting OEM components. It's safer, it's more fun, it doesn't mess up my warranty, and VW is around to support us (unofficially, of course) if we encounter any problems. As for these Goddamn roof modules - *they are toxic*, plain and simple. Don't go there.


Michael,
I don't quite understand why you are so adamant about this topic.

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
First off, the only reason VW did not give us all the ability to operate the roof while the vehicle is in motion is because the structural components of the roof are not designed to tolerate ANY form of vibration or movement of the vehicle while they are operating. 


I agree completely. I think the forum members also agree that removing this ability would be a good thing and would not take away from what most people seem to like about them. This is why I think removing the "in motion" feature would be a good common ground for not voiding the warrantee , however there is no way for me to prove I did not use the in motion feature.
As far as 

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Second, because of the 'scissors' action of many of the components involved in the roof, it is impossible for VW to build in pinch protection that would stop and reverse the roof if anyone got a finger, arm, or object caught in the mechanism while it was operating. This is why the driver is required to _a)_ sit in the car, and _b)_ hold the switch in place through the whole extension and retraction process. It is not a USA lawyer thing, because all Eos roofs worldwide are like this. It is a 'human safety' and a 'roof component safety' issue.


I noticed when I was using the button "as is" from the factory to stop the roof in midstream for the service mode, it did not stop exactly when I released the button. So if someone were to have a finger or hand in the way, even letting up on the button as soon as the emergent situation was noticed may not be enough to prevent injury. 
The module I use does provide a function to stop the progress, both with the key fob, and with the button. This action takes place immediately. In addition, I still think the best position to be in while operating the roof is *outside* the car, which is not possible under factory conditions.
And in any case, as far as VWs concern with being released from any personal injury due to malfunction of the controller, I don't know how an injury could really be construed to be their fault. If an owner installs an after market brake caliper and an injury ensues due to the faulty caliper, I think most people would agree the OEM should not be on the hook. Examples of this situation are too numerous to list. Granted our courts have upheld some silly things, but this would set a precendent I think most judges, attorneys, politicians, etc would find too onerous to the system. Let's face it, cars are inherently dangeorous if not used with care, and the burdon should always be on the operator to use care.
I am glad that I am able to get these additional features and I hope VW does not drop the ax on the warrantee work for those using them, especially if the person never once used the "in motion" capabilities. 
So I would offer this to the people who would still like to pursue this option. *Use common sense, be careful and only use the module while the car is stopped!* so that VW does not have a need to take action.


----------



## richard_eos (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jgermuga)*

when I installed my module, max speed was set to 0, that means operating the top was only possible at standstill.
I never touched this option and my vw dealer has no problems with any warranty issues.
"In addition, I still think the best position to be in while operating the roof is outside the car, which is not possible under factory conditions."
I'm totally agree with you!! 
Richard


----------



## Sandalman (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EOSmage)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EOSmage* »_I'm still trying to sell my unused Mods4cars module. I'm taking "reasonable" offers...









I apologize for the OT post, but I tried PMing, and your email address is hidden. What is your definition of reasonable?


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jeffjohnson1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jgermuga* »_I don't quite understand why you are so adamant about this topic...

Hi John:
There are a few reasons why I feel the way I do.
First, I guess, is because I knew all along that the LCT vendor had a history of dissatisfied customers (this from reading the post in the Mercedes-Benz forum) way back when they first started advertising these modules on Vortex, but my hands were tied so far as what I could say about them 'with my moderator hat on', because they were an advertiser. Now that they are not an advertiser, I can say what I believe, and I have done this.
Second, because I believe that the primary selling feature of these roof modules is the ability to operate the roof with the vehicle in motion. That's what the videos and text promote on all the vendor websites. Saying that you don't have to use this feature is a bit like Smith and Wesson advertising handguns but saying that you don't have to buy bullets for the handgun if you don't like the potential risk that the bullets present.
VW is rightly concerned about the damage that could occur to roof supporting structures if the roof is operated while the vehicle is in motion. Stress fractures may not result in immediate catastrophic failure - it might take a few years for the fracture to fully propagate, which means that long after the first owner has traded in the car, an overstressed component could fail, causing possible injury to the second or third owner.
If the roof module vendors were selling a product that did not defeat the 'vehicle in motion' interlock, and merely allowed the user to operate the roof without sitting in the seat and holding onto the switch, I would not have any objections to the thing at all. However - none of them offer such a product. Like I said, their principle selling feature is that you can operate the roof with the vehicle in motion. That's what they promote.
I have known for some time that VW has been working on a method of detecting the presence of a roof module, and that they intend to disqualify the entire roof from warranty coverage if any evidence of a roof module (past or present) is discovered. I think I owe it to all the owners here to make sure that they know that - it would be pretty irresponsible of me to be aware of that thunderstorm on the horizon and not make sure that everyone else was fully aware of it before they lay their money down. Historically, VW has been very supportive of us installing OEM retrofits, and it is uncommon for them to get upset about a modification... thus, if they are seriously concerned about this one, I think people need to know about it.
Lastly, all of the roof module vendors that I have encountered so far have been PITAs. First LCT with their flaky customer service and refusal to allow the installation instructions to be posted, then another vendor shilling their product under the guise of a vehicle owner, then a third vendor who claimed to be installing one on the weekend in Munich, but suddenly disappeared from sight when I replied that I was next door in Switzerland and would be delighted to drop over and take pictures of the installation process - bah, a pox on all their houses.
I'm not criticizing any individual forum member that has purchased or plans to purchase a module - never have and never will. Heck, we are all adults here, and for the most part, we can do what we want to do unless it creates a problem for other people. However - I think it is important that everyone who comes here knows all the relevant information, so they can make an informed decision about whether to proceed with the purchase and installation of this component. That is, after all, the most important purpose of our forum - to share technical advice and insights about our cars.
Michael


----------



## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

Well said Michael. 
I am not sure why the vendors have promoted this particular feature. Perhpas they will "liten" to the discussion and make some changes.
It is unfortunate we do not have a choice to purchase the features we would like without the in motion option as I think it is the best route toward VW considering this as an acceptable modification.
For now, I hope that common sense reigns and we do not have any more unfortunate events, especially after hearing about what can happen if the front windshield struts don't meet up properly. I was looking for the thread to append here but could not find it.


----------



## justme97 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (jgermuga)*

It seems like for litigious reasons the companies should offer a roof module without a motion feature. 
But based on things Michael said I have decided that I will never use the motion feature and can simply set it to 0 if I get a module like the one from mods4cars. I had planned on using this feature with a speed cutoff of about 10mph but he brings up good points about the fact that any speed causes vibration.
Personally I don't think vw (in the US) can legally void the warranty just based on the fact that you had a roof module, that is against US law and is spelled out in the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. I believe they can only void warranty claims on a case-by-case basis upon discovering that an aftermarket part is the direct cause of a failure. 
So in theory if you don't operate the top at speed you should never have a failure caused by operating the top at speed. And even if they do suspect that a failure is due to operating the top at speed how can they prove that you enable this feature that can be disabled? Wouldn't this burden of proof be on them?
Are there any lawyers here.....does what I say make sense?


----------



## LuckyInChicago (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (justme97)*

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet...








While VW would need to prove that it was the aftermarket part that caused the problem, that doesn't mean it won't be a huge PITA to get it fixed under warranty.
If you want to deal with the possible headache, make sure to bookmark this page for future reference:
http://www.enjoythedrive.com/c...nuson
While it annoys me to no end that those module makers have yet to notice all of our concerns and come up with a module that removes the controversial feature, I would much rather hold out for one than install something that may lead me to go to battle for any little roof repair.
I rest my case.


----------



## justme97 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (LuckyInChicago)*

Good point...and good site. I agree with what you say but I refuse to let them bully me out of key-fob operated roof deployment...I'm dying to have that feature! I really wish that came standard like it does with the mini...


----------



## richard_eos (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (justme97)*

Did anybody ask them for a module without the "while driving" feature?


----------



## ravennarocket (May 4, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (richard_eos)*

Now that VW has an "all season" convertible, it would seem to me there is a market for a remote that:
1.) remote starts the car, a great feature in cold climates to engine and car to arm up before being put into use. Not a new idea.
2.) allows remote opening/closing of roof module. Makes sense to make it a sub-function o remote start to save battery.
3.) allows remote opening/closing of windows, all or part way.
Just a thought!


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (ravennarocket)*

#3. Find someone with a VAG-COM... very easy to change your keyfob functions!
Greg


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (LuckyInChicago)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LuckyInChicago* »_
While it annoys me to no end that those module makers have yet to notice all of our concerns and come up with a module that removes the controversial feature, I would much rather hold out for one than install something that may lead me to go to battle for any little roof repair.
I rest my case.

I second http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *ravennarocket* »_
1.) remote starts the car, a great feature in cold climates to engine and car to arm up before being put into use. Not a new idea.


In the owners manual it specifically states not do this. They prefer you start the engine and drive off immediately. I'm not sure if there is a technical reason for this or if it's environmental advice.


----------



## ravennarocket (May 4, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_
I second http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
In the owners manual it specifically states not do this. They prefer you start the engine and drive off immediately. I'm not sure if there is a technical reason for this or if it's environmental advice.

That's fine, BUT trudging through three feet of snow, then scraping ice and snow off the car before you can enter to start it isn't a lot of fun. Think I might ignore the manual in those circumstances every once in a while!


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (ravennarocket)*

One of your guys recently pointed us to this thread.
We would be pleased to offer you a special edition of the smartTOP-EOS without the while driving feature installed.
We are always interested to accommodate all our customers wishes.
Regards, Sven


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## justme97 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mods4cars)*

That sounds like a great idea. If you could provide with the chip documentation that officially indicates that the driving feature is not installed that should help a lot with any future disputes with vw. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (justme97)*

Personally, until someone makes a roof module that has Webasto or VWs blessing, I will not be installing one. I personally don't want to have to go through the hassle of proving or not proving whether I was or was not moving at the time of the problem if there ever was a problem. 
As much as I would love the ability to have remote control roof lowering or one touch lowering, I don't think it is worth the potential problems that will or will not arise.
And that being said, I am sure there are lawyers that could argue both sides of the issue convincingly but by the time they are done, I would expect that I could have bought 2 Eos convertibles instead of one.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (justme97)*


_Quote, originally posted by *justme97* »_Personally I don't think vw (in the US) can legally void the warranty just based on the fact that you had a roof module, that is against US law and is spelled out in the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. 

Hi Brennan:
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't even live in the USA, however, I think VW has a rock-solid position so far as these 'in-motion' roof modules are concerned. Even the dumbest judge with the most sympathetic jury would comprehend that operating the roof - even once - with the vehicle in motion could overstress the structural components in the roof assembly.
The key point that we need to remember, to keep all of this in context, is that VW themselves (VW of America) has always been pretty darn co-operative with owners who make modifications to their cars. If we make OEM modifications (retrofits), heck, sometimes they even quietly help us behind the scenes, as many of the Phaeton forum members have discovered. If we make non-OEM modifications - for example, chipping the engine - they don't make 'blanket' warranty exclusions, they consider everything on a case by case basis.
For VW to be this concerned about roof modules, in light of their history of being generally pretty co-operative with owners, suggests that they have very real and very serious worries.
I note that Sven from 'Mods4Cars' has made a post above indicating that his company is willing to provide roof modules that will not work when the vehicle is in motion - in other words, the roof module will not defeat the 'no roof operation unless car is stopped' function. Without expressing any personal opinion on the merits of Sven's module or Sven's company (I am not familiar with either the module or the company), I think this is a great idea on his part and a huge step forward in the right direction. I was in Overland Park last Friday - I'm sorry Sven didn't make his post earlier, because if he did, I would have dropped by for a coffee.








Michael


----------



## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

I'd certainly be interested in a Module that did not allow operation while in motion..


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (ravennarocket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ravennarocket* »_Now that VW has an "all season" convertible, it would seem to me there is a market for a remote that... remote starts the car, a great feature in cold climates to engine and car to warm up before being put into use. Not a new idea. 

Hi Fred:
On the face of it, that sounds like a good idea. The problem, though, is that in order to install any kind of remote start system, you have to totally defeat the anti-theft protection system of the car.
The foundation of the anti-theft protection system (sometimes called the 'immobilizer') in all VW products is a transponder chip - similar to a toll highway transponder, or a radio frequency ID tag - that is embedded into the key fob assembly. When you put the key into the ignition slot, the car polls the key fob for its unique identification, and will not let the engine run unless the key passes validation. This system is so advanced that in the case of Phaetons and Touaregs, the ignition switch doesn't even look at the pattern cut into the bit of the key - you can shove any VW key from any VW on the market into a Phaeton or Touareg ignition slot, and it will twist and turn. Heck, you can even shove a Popsicle stick in there and twist and turn it... but unless that Popsicle stick has the correct immobilizer code built into it, the car won't run.
In order to retrofit a remote starter, this anti-theft system has to be fooled into thinking that an authorized key is present in the vehicle. Because of the sophistication of the anti-theft system, the only way to fool it is to actually embed an authorized key into the vehicle. This now means that anyone can start your car and drive it away if they have a key bit that fits into the ignition switch... obviously not a good state of affairs.
In Europe, VW offers a 'park heater' on most vehicles (Eos included) as a factory installed option. This option is not offered in North America because the legal system in the USA would leave VW open to being sued if someone programmed it to come on at a certain time, and the car was parked in an enclosed space (private garage, public garage, workshop, etc.) and the heater started up and created dangerous carbon monoxide levels. If you want more information about parking heaters, see this post in the Phaeton forum: Standheizungen (Parking Heater) - OEM installation.
I believe it is possible to install such a parking heater as a aftermarket retrofit here in North America, although it is quite expensive. The most common solution to winter pre-heating seems to be installation of an in-line coolant heater. In-line coolant heaters are the second millennium successor to block heaters, which cannot be fitted to any modern car (any car made in the last 15 years or so) simply because modern engines no longer have frost plugs. The TDI community is very familiar with these in-line heaters - you can find lots more information about them at the TDI Club forum, their website is here: www.TDIClub.com.
Michael


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## swordfish1 (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_

Second, because of the 'scissors' action of many of the components involved in the roof, it is impossible for VW to build in pinch protection that would stop and reverse the roof if anyone got a finger, arm, or object caught in the mechanism while it was operating. This is why the driver is required to _a)_ sit in the car, and _b)_ hold the switch in place through the whole extension and retraction process. It is not a USA lawyer thing, because all Eos roofs worldwide are like this. It is a 'human safety' and a 'roof component safety' issue. 
Michael


I do understand what you're saying here, I just can't understand how VW don't have this feature when other manufacturers do. I considered buying a SAAB, this car definitely had remote keyfob opening/closing of the roof as a factory option.








Oh, and my other convertible does have a roof closing whilst moving feature....admittedly it does mean reaching behind you and pulling the softtop up!!


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## ravennarocket (May 4, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
Many thanks for your very informed analysis, as usual! Being from Toronto, you probably know the winter weather I face, living near Blue Mountain. For the time being, think I have an alternate solution:
1.) the garage I built houses the EOS, plus my ATV with attached blower; so that I can quickly and easily clear the full driveway 
2.) my wife's Passat 4Motion resides on the driveway in projected inclement weather.
We have just recently been married, so I'm not so sure how long this arrangement will last before she claims "equal garage rights"!


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I note that Sven from 'Mods4Cars' has made a post above indicating that his company is willing to provide roof modules that will not work when the vehicle is in motion - in other words, the roof module will not defeat the 'no roof operation unless car is stopped' function. Without expressing any personal opinion on the merits of Sven's module or Sven's company (I am not familiar with either the module or the company), I think this is a great idea on his part and a huge step forward in the right direction. I was in Overland Park last Friday - I'm sorry Sven didn't make his post earlier, because if he did, I would have dropped by for a coffee.








Michael

When will you be here again? You are always welcome!
Regards, Sven


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_I'd certainly be interested in a Module that did not allow operation while in motion..

Ok, as I said before, that's not a big deal and we would offer a FREE extra programming to all VWvortex members.
Regards, Sven


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_Ok, as I said before, that's not a big deal and we would offer a FREE extra programming to all VWvortex members.
Regards, Sven

Sven,
When will the stationary module version be available? Can you explain the "free extra programming" offer?
-Erik


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (solarflare)*

Hi Erik,
we will be able to ship the 
smartTOP-EOS-"stationary"
between 28. and 31. May.
There will be NO EXTRA FEE for all VWvortex members.
Normally we charge an extra fee for individual programming.
Regards, Sven


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mods4cars)*

Sven
Very interested in the new module. Some more questions however..
(1) Is is possible to design a harness that allows the module to installed and removed without further dissambling the VW harness once the initial work has been completed. 
What I'm suggesting is some set system of male and female connectors that allow the module to be installed and then removed / bypassed without have to touch the VW connectors again. I realize that this would still make the modification visable to a physical inspection but would simply the process of returning the module for service / upgrade should that become necessary. 
Also, the last time I looked at your install instructions and you splice into the 12V and Earth. Can you make it so there is a connector in the 12v WIRE, and can your unit be attached directly to the earch point in the trunk so avoiding the need to splice the earth wire..
-Mark


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

I have an uninstalled module right now that I was thinking of selling. If this "non-motion" version will let VW relax a little on the "roof mod" warpath, then I'd likely keep it and have it upgraded to the new version.
For those of you who have sent me instant messages via the forums, Firefox-- for reasons I've not yet figured out-- opens up a blank window which I'm unable to get your information from. <sigh> I've since "unblocked" my email address which should help this issue, at least until I get Firefox figured out.
Sven: Will there be a way for "original module owners" to upgrade to the non-moving version? And, I'm also interested in a harness that removes the need to crimp into wires and also switch wires between connectors. We have already talked at length about this, in fact.


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EOSmage)*

Quick update:
YES we will "upgrade" your module to the smartTOP-EOS-"stationary" version for FREE. (Special offer for VWvortex members)
Regards, Sven


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_Quick update:
YES we will "upgrade" your module to the smartTOP-EOS-"stationary" version for FREE. (Special offer for VWvortex members)
Regards, Sven


Sven,
Can you give those who purchased a LCT unit a trade in credit?
Thanks,
Bruce


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## Sandalman (Aug 11, 2002)

How about a group buy price? If, say, 10 Eos owners all order the "no motion" edition of the module between now and when it's ready at the end of May, we pay a discounted price.


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (flheat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flheat* »_Sven,
Can you give those who purchased a LCT unit a trade in credit?
Thanks,
Bruce

Hi Bruce,
we will not offer any trade ins, sorry. Especially not from LCT, thanks for your understanding.
Regards, Sven


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: (Sandalman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sandalman* »_How about a group buy price? If, say, 10 Eos owners all order the "no motion" edition of the module between now and when it's ready at the end of May, we pay a discounted price.

We would be happy to offer a 10% discount for at least 10 group buy orders.
Regards, Sven


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_
Hi Bruce,
we will not offer any trade ins, sorry. Especially not from LCT, thanks for your understanding.
Regards, Sven

Thanks for responding. What am I supposed to understand? I would have thought more of you if you ended your response at sorry. I viewed my request as an opportunity for you but I guess I don't understand business decisions these days.


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (flheat)*

Hi Bruce,
we will internally discuss your request again. I will get back to you regarding this topic shortly.
Regards, Sven


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_We would be happy to offer a 10% discount for at least 10 group buy orders.

Sven:
*No, no,* please don't go down the 'group buy' route. I can promise you that is a massive PITA, something that only kids that are breaking their piggy banks open to buy discount fart cans for Mom's Honda do. Neither you nor Eos owners want the pain and sorrow that arises from group buys.
First of all, in order to run any kind of group buy, it has to be organized through a Vortex advertiser - that is one of the rules of Vortex, and that rule is there as a result of painful past experience with these group buys blowing up and going sour. Anyone who is interested can view the rules here: Advertising and Group Buy Regulations. You may have already noticed that a link to that set of rules is at the top of every single Vortex thread listing - it is an important rule.
Second, there is really no savings to be gained by going through a 'group buy' unless all the participants happen to live in the same area and can pick up the good in person from one central spot. By the time you factor in additional shipping to the end recipients, any 'group buy' savings have disappeared.
Third, it is far, far simpler for each purchaser of an item - any item - to deal directly with the vendor of the item. That way, they get the undivided attention of the vendor, they can pay for it any way they want, they can have it shipped any way they want, they can do their own due diligence and make their own decisions.
We have never had a group buy in the Phaeton forum, ever. If a whole bunch of people want to buy the same thing at the same time, we contact a vendor who specializes in retailing VW parts (for example, Rich at OEM Plus), and we get him to buy the stuff wholesale and sell it to us retail. That's probably why all of us who post in that forum are still friends with each other - we have never tried to organize a group buy. Trust me on this one, honestly.
------------------------
On a somewhat related topic: Sven, commercial vendors normally have to sign up with Vortex as advertisers in order to use the forums to communicate about their products. In this particular case, your participation in this thread has legitimate 'editorial' value, because the topic is one of current interest, there has been a lot of discussion about these roof modules lately, and I don't believe that you started posting here for the sole purpose of selling modules - I think your original post to this thread (about modules that don't defeat the 'in-motion' lockout) was a genuine effort to solve a problem that affects everyone who is interested in these things.
So, for that reason (editorial relevance), I'm going to give you a _'carte blanche' _to discuss matters related to roof modules that don't defeat the in-motion lockout from now until the end of the day Sunday, May 20th (the end of this week). If you want to continue to reach potential buyers of your product via this forum after that date, you will need to contact Pam at the Vortex advertising department and sort out the details with her. Click here for more information about that. I'm not trying to squeeze you for advertising money (I'm a volunteer, not a Vortex employee), I'm just trying to ensure that the rules respecting vendors posting in forums are applied fairly to everyone. I have passed this same message on to other vendors or vendor representatives in the past, therefore, to be fair and consistent to all, I have to pass it on to you as well.
Michael


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## ravennarocket (May 4, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Just want to support Michael's position ... he is being more than reasonable.


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Fleaht*

After following this thread closely with all its ups ´n downs....
I´ll just want to add my two cents...








First of all compliments to Michael - who managed to define a route for "more acceptable" roof module solutions for the Vortex community.
And more important to bring all the possible participants on one table








Second Sven of Mods4Cars who is willing to program a VW Vortex version of their SmartTop RoofModule - wich I have used for more than 6 Months now (RoW - without any problems btw.).
On the other hand it´s funny to see that VWV Members already try to generate GroupBuy Deals or worse TradeIns!
Why should Sven "buy" LCT RoofModules?
It´s not like trading Microsoft versus Adobe or Quark!
Just imagine the situation of LCT - they could be very unhappy to see the competition witch their modules in hand.
And what should Sven do with "all the modules" - they are worthless.
There is a lot of programming behind those little boxes and btw. no stealing of manurfacturer codes.
Maybe the mentioned company is also able to provide the VWV Community with a "no splice needed adapter"......
Let´s see how this whole story continues...
Greetings out of Berlin
Freund








P.S. Post more pics of your EOSes into the "interesting Locations" thread


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mark_d_drake)*

While we are on the subject of added features, a vent feature would be very useful. Say 2 clicks of the lock button would lock the doors, close all windows/sunroof then open the windows a 1/2 inch or so(programmable?) and open the sunroof to the vent position http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: (ravennarocket)*

Dear Bruce,
Dear VWVortex Board members,
we have decided to offer all of you a "VWVortex special edition" EOS roof module with "roof operation while driving" permanently disabled
but all other features fully present. This modified version will be offered at NO extra cost. 
Additionally, will offer each one of you a 10% discount on the purchase of a new module and a 25% discount if you trade any other EOS roof module in (regardless of manufacturer or version). The discounts are not combinable.
If you already own a previous version of the original mods4cars EOS module, we will update it to the newest version for FREE (only return postage of $7 required).
We hope that with this offer we can actively help everyone here on VWVortex gain the highly demanded peace of mind that VW will, should any defect arise, not blame such defect on roof operation while in motion. We can of course not guarantee for any decisions VW in general or individual dealers might make when they encounter this "stationery use only" module. We would be happy to receive all of your feedback to this offer before May 20th and would like to thank PanEuropean for letting us announce this our decision and offer here on the board.
We will post exact instructions shortly on how to place your order, trade in an old module or have your mods4cars module updated.
Thank you and Regards,
Your mods4cars team.


_Modified by mods4cars at 8:41 AM 5-17-2007_


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: (mods4cars)*

Wow - unexpected but sweet move!
Freund


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## owr084 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_
Additionally, will offer each one of you a 10% discount
on the purchase of a new module and a 25% discount if you trade any other EOS roof module in (regardless of manufacturer or version). 

Are those discounts combinable if we qualify for both?


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

Have you managed to find a wiring harness that would remove the requirement for crimping into wires and also pulling pins out of existing connectors?


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_Dear Bruce,
Dear VWVortex Board members,
...Additionally, will offer each one of you a 10% discount on the purchase of a new module and a 25% discount if you trade any other EOS roof module in (regardless of manufacturer or version). The discounts are not combinable...

Sven,
Thanks for taking the time to re-evaluate your position and I think it will be mutually beneficial. Most of us who purchased the LCT product did such because we are early adapters and it was the only product available at the time. Over time we learned that the promised support from LCT was not there and we had to swallow our pride and admit that we were wrong. We were frustrated that we were left high and dry. I may have been harsh in my initial response, but my point was, and I think you realized, what a great opportunity to 1) acquire additional sales from owners that otherwise would have grumbled and keep their current product (albeit, your profit margin is not as high as you like, but I am sure it is better than nothing) and 2) provide a source for additional business referrals (By seeing my remote unit at least 2 other people want it. When others ask where'd you get it, I can say mods4cars as opposed to LCT and they suck, but you should try mods4cars instead). I believe the opinions of mods4cars owners are going to be the best source of referrals for your future business and the goodwill created does not hurt.
Grateful,
Bruce


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## justme97 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: (mods4cars)*

Mods4cars appears to be very responsive to customers and mainly for this reason I for one will be giving them my business. I remember writing lct to see if there was still a vortex forum discount and they took 4 days just to tell me "no".
I also will appreciated having a module that removes my own temptation to operating the roof while driving as well as for possible legal benefits.
To mods4cars, you really should consider becoming a forum sponsor. I was very close to buying the lct unit just based on the fact that they were were a sponsor and had a sticky. Just like how giving your customers a discount and "trade in" is a good idea, supporting the forum they all love is also a good idea and should bring you lots of extra sales! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: (justme97)*

We would certainly like to become a VWVortex sponsor as we think that regardless of roof modules this is a great place
to communicate and (for us as a manufacturer of after market products obviously also is) a valuable source for product ideas,
improvements and hands-on feedback. We are constantly striving to offer the best possible customer experience, with our
products as well as with our service and are always happy to receive your feedback and opinions.
We have tried four times in the past to contact the Vortex advertising department by email, but unfortunately never got a
response. So if anyone of you would like to step in and has any connections to them, please don't hesitate to contact us
by email or phone, both of which can be found on our website.
Thank you and Regards,
Your mods4cars team.


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: (EOSmage)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EOSmage* »_Have you managed to find a wiring harness that would remove the requirement for crimping into wires and also pulling pins out of existing connectors?

We will look into this in the near future but can not promise anything as of yet.
Regards, Sven


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (mods4cars)*

Actually I don't mind pulling the pins once... 
IMHO the ideal solution would be a system which allows you to insert or remove and bypass the module at will. Eg, 
Some initial re-wiring is required to add the module the first time. However one that has been done the module can be removed and replaced with out requiring any further work on the original wires. It can simply be connected and disconnected. The second part would be to provide a set of wires that could be used in place of the module that would restore normal OEM operation if the module was removed for any reason (Firmware update / VW Service)

Does that make sense
VWRoofController]----[Connector]-----[Module]------[Connector]-----[VWRoofController
or 
VWRoofController]----[Connector]----Blank----[Connector]----VWRoofController
Eg after the initial wiring is done to add the connectors the module can be added or removed at will without affecting touching the VW Roof Controller again. If it's necessary to remove the module entirely for any reason the blank can be inserted in it's place restoring normal operation.


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

This question is actually for Michael:
If this modified module were created, without the ability to lower and raise the roof while moving, would you install it on your own Eos if you ever buy one? 
Also in asking this question do you believe that VW would honor any warranty claims relating to roof problems if this particular unit is installed?

The remote control aspect of this controller has been what has appealed to me from the beginning, but only if I can feel some assurance that I will not be voiding a warranty that could potentially cost me THOUSANDS of dollars in the name of convenience. 
If we can get some kind of assurance that our warranty would be honored with this unit, I would expect that Mods4cars would get a lot more business. 
I think they are a much more responsible and legitimate provider vs. LCT, which scared me from the beginning, but I want to make sure that I have some protection on my purchase.


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## jdl (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*

I am very interested in this module that doesn't allow the top to open/close while in motion. 
I would like to so see the "plug and play" no rewiring option and what Michael suggested,
"blank" replacement to remove the module if needed.
I would also like to see VW response (support) on this module. I understand remote 
operation can be a "safety issue" as Michael has also pointed out. But the same dangers 
are present if you are sitting in the car holding on to the switch as not. You even have 
better visability if you are outside the car. 
And, Yes, Michael, your impressions








I couldn't find the website by searching. Can that be posted "legally" to this thread?
Thanks 
Jack


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## justme97 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*

Thomas, mods4cars seems to be doing all they can do in making a "safe" module. If you want warranty it would probably have to be from an owner that steps up to see if vw will revoke thier roof warranty after using a "safe" roof module. 
Same goes for modifications that make the module easier to take out. Wouldn't it be easier to to make sure vw won't void our warranties and then just keep the thing in? If vw sees that I was installed and then removed then you are basically admitting that you think it's an item that can be viewed as risky.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (justme97)*

Actually the In/Out is more for firmware upgrades then Hiding it from VW. It will still be obvious to VW that a module had been present if they did a physical inspection


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (justme97)*

VW - guarantee?
Volkswagen will not grant any additional warranty on the folding top.
Why should they.
The operation follows the exact same rules and processes as a driver pulling or pushing the "button".
Nothing changes at all.
Changing your wheels or you stereo on your car is a way bigger modification than adding this particular roof module (non motion version).
To be honest - anybody connecting a VAG-COM to his car changing just minor functions would theoretically void his guarantee.
Nobody is questioning this - there will be no additional guarantee discussion.
Again - just my two cents








Freund


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (EosEnthusiastNB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EosEnthusiastNB* »_This question is actually for Michael:
 I have embedded my responses in blue type.
If this modified module were created, without the ability to lower and raise the roof while moving, would you install it on your own Eos if you ever buy one? 
No, I would not, but this is only because my own particular interest - the nature of my car modification fetish, so to speak - is to keep the car absolutely conformal to OEM design at all times. I even took a pass on installing the Bluetooth handsfree phone kit that VW fully endorses, sells through the dealer network, and advertises in the "Driver Gear" magazine because it was aftermarket, not part of the original design of my car. On the other hand, I don't mind collecting $8K worth of parts to do an exact OEM television retrofit, even though I don't watch television at home, let alone in the car.








Also in asking this question do you believe that VW would honor any warranty claims relating to roof problems if this particular unit is installed?
Well, first off, I have to make very clear that I can't speak for VW, even though I know many people who work there. However, having said that, I am pretty sure that it was the "roof operation in motion" issue that VW was really scared about, and if that is gone for good and VW knows that there is now a roof module out there that does not allow operation while in motion, and has no "back door" to enable this feature, I kind of suspect they will be much less concerned. There are other vendors out there who make stuff that tie into the car electronics - for example, window controller gizmos - and VW has never been too upset about them.
Like I said earlier, VW does not go after folks who modify their cars just for the heck of it. If an owner had made a modification and a warranty claim arises that is closely related to that modification, they look at stuff on a case by case basis. If it is reasonable to assume that the modification had no effect on whatever the warranty claim issue is, then they don't worry about it. For example: You could have a 500 HP super-modded hot rod engine in your Eos, and if your warranty claim concerned your turn signal not working, VW would have no interest in what you did to the engine. They are a pretty reasonable and co-operative company, as we found out earlier when we asked for the special lubricant price reduction. 
The remote control aspect of this controller has been what has appealed to me from the beginning, but only if I can feel some assurance that I will not be voiding a warranty that could potentially cost me THOUSANDS of dollars in the name of convenience. If we can get some kind of assurance that our warranty would be honored with this unit, I would expect that Mods4cars would get a lot more business. 
I doubt that VW (corporate) or any VW dealer will ever be able to assure you that any modification is guaranteed not to affect warranty. A roof module ties into a rather complex electronics system. Who knows what possibilities could exist for confusion down the road? It's just like the problem one forum member had when they put window tint on their car and the reflections from the sun burned a hole in the door trim - that was a consequence that no-one could have foreseen.
I think they are a much more responsible and legitimate provider vs. LCT, which scared me from the beginning, but I want to make sure that I have some protection on my purchase. 
 Well, it's early yet. Certainly what we have seen posted in the last few days appears to be encouraging, but keep in mind that no new product has shipped yet, so no-one has been able to do long-term tests. Like any other vendor, it will take some time (typically 6 to 12 months) for this vendor to develop a reputation for customer service, and it will probably take an equal period of time before anyone can make an evaluation of the efficacy of the product based on long term performance.


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

First, congratulations to Mods4Cars and Sven on stepping up to offer something that a number of people want, and doing so in a very responsible and professional manner.
Ditto to the forum participants discussing this who have turned concept into (soon-to-be) reality.
Having said that, there's a small problem I wouldn't want people to overlook. At this point we have heard that VW may look for "roof modules" in the future, including the roof module that Mods4Cars puts out, that have the potential to damage the roof primarily through the movement of the roof while the vehicle is in motion. While Mod4Cars is willing to produce a software configuration that precludes this, it's unlikely that your neighborhood VW dealer will recognize the difference between the "Mods4Cars VWVortex SE Super-Responsible Module" and the "Mods4Cars Standard Edition Module" since they'd appear pretty much similar to the dealer.
I don't have a solution to this problem (if it is a problem) - perhaps some folks here have some suggestions. One approach would be to laser-engrave the words "VIM Opening Disabled" onto the module so that under physical inspection one could prove their point. Not practical. A second would be to show in the MFD something that indicates that this is a software-modified version that has roof opening disabled at 0 mph - perhaps this is relatively easy? A third would be to have a specific firmware version written somewhere (MFD, chip, paper certificate of authentication?) that VW would recognize as being a "friendly" roof module. Too complicated and open to abuse.
Which reminds me - when updates for the module are produced, will Mods4Cars produce an updated module with the custom configuration? I can't answer that, but I'm guessing that we'd have to purchase a few units in order to justify the effort? I don't know the vendor's software update policy (discount?) but it would be very reasonable to charge the standard "custom configuration" rate Sven mentioned for future updates.
As someone pretty interested in a roof module (but still hoping for seat memory someday!) I'm still interested in this module regardless of this minor issue. But there are folks sitting on the fence and I thought it best to point this out before they purchase, especially if there's an easy resolution to this.
If you've made it this far Sven, quick question - do you ship USPS upon request? UPS + US/Canada Border = $$$$


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## jdl (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

Keep the receipt or copy (in the car) the specifies the type of module purchased. 
(since one or both of the modes should be available they should also have a 
different stock number/description on the receipt.) (Just my thoughts).
Jack


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (neweosowner)*

Hi Arlynn:
Good thoughts, but a 100 foot long test drive across the parking lot, coupled with attempting to operate the roof while in motion, will prove or disprove whether the roof module supports 'vehicle in motion' operation or not.
As I see it, the most critical issue is that when Sven manufactures these 'no operation with vehicle in motion' modules, he has to make 100% sure that there is no 'back door' that would allow the end user to defeat the vehicle in motion lockout. That's the most important issue of all.
Michael


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*

Hello,
the "not in motion" software will not include the ability to operate the top while driving, at all.
Regards, Sven


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Arlynn:
Good thoughts, but a 100 foot long test drive across the parking lot, coupled with attempting to operate the roof while in motion, will prove or disprove whether the roof module supports 'vehicle in motion' operation or not.


...assuming a cooperative owner. (It's unlikely the shop mechanic will know how to operate the various types of modules...and it's pretty hard for the owner to prove a negative, i.e. that the car can't operate the roof while in motion.) Or assuming a cooperative dealership.


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

The quandry about proving the roof was not operated while in motion is a good point and at some level, VW will have to trust the owner. Who's to say I didn't have an LCT unit that caused some unseen damage in the past, but I've since replaced it with the new not in motion controller. I think our best option is to heed Michael's advice and never use it while in motion, even if you do have the ability. If we never give VW reason to see the expense of formulating a policy on this to be worth the time and effort, our odds are much better theat is will never come into question. So if they see few-to-no problems which would lead them to suspect this is costing them big $$$, why would they have any reason to to take an otherwise unfriendly and over protective stance towards their customers?


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## Rodriguw (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (mods4cars)*

Sven,
How can I go about on placing an order for the SmartTOP "stationary" version. Is there a promotion code for the !0%discount for VWvortex members?
Thanks,


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## mods4cars (May 16, 2007)

*Re: General impressions of the RoofModule Pro Unit? (Rodriguw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rodriguw* »_Sven,
How can I go about on placing an order for the SmartTOP "stationary" version. Is there a promotion code for the 10%discount for VWvortex members?
Thanks,

Hi,
the promotion code is "vwvortex-se". The code is valid until June, 1st.
For trade-ins you will receive an additional 15% refund after we have received the trade-in module.
Regards, Sven


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## jeffjohnson1 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: (wkc)*

what competitor??? I only know of one but would be interested in comparing everything.
Jeff


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## Rodriguw (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (mods4cars)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mods4cars* »_
Have you managed to find a wiring harness that would remove the requirement for crimping into wires and also pulling pins out of existing connectors?

Sven,
I just purchased the smarttop module and *I am very interested in the removal wire harness*. Can you please add me to your email, when this accessory is available.
Thank you, 
Wilson


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