# Cylinder Head Options?



## GTISilverRabbit (Mar 15, 2012)

Hi All,

I'm currently building up a 3A block for integration into my 83 mk1 GTI (JH) and I was wondering what the different options for the cylinder head are? I know that I could use my JH head but I might want to upgrade to something newer/better performance.
I found this head on TT which would be an upgrade from solid to hydro lifters:
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/in...ct_info&cPath=2_11_5_399_596&products_id=1294
The intake and exhaust valves are pretty much the same though....
My plan is to go the forced induction (Turbo) direction so this might help to narrow down the different options.
Anybody have some recommendations which cylinder head would fit my 3A block and is an performance upgrade towards the turbo goal?

Thanks!


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Hydro is not any better than solid, nor is the solid any better than hydro. There maybe more cams available for one or the other at some point, but I don't even think that is an issue right now.

The only 8V head that might be better, would be a cross-flow head, and that would be to get the intake mani away from the exhaust mani. And the fact that those come with 7mm valve stems as compared to the 8mm stems in the counter-flow heads.


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## GTISilverRabbit (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks for the answer!
Which cross-flow head would work on the 3A block? Would the ABA cylinder head work?

What about the G60 head? I don't think it is a cross flow head but I read in a couple of posts that it has certain advantages:


Slightly larger and longer valves
Sodium filled exhaust valves
Better for turbo applications?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Yes, the ABA will fit if the JH fits. As for the G60 head, I don't know what is meant by "longer valves" and I don't know what valve sizes it came with. The sodium filled exhaust will help with longevity, but there are plenty of FI motors living long and fruitful lives w/o them.


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## GTISilverRabbit (Mar 15, 2012)

Hmm, Ok. If I switch to ABA or G60 head from my JH engine I will have to upgrade to digi1 or digi2 from current CIS, correct? 
What is the advantage of cross-flow vs. regular? Adding a turbo with exhaust and intake on one side of the engine is going to be pretty cramped, so I guess an ABA head would help with size constraints.
Any other thoughts on this setup?


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

GTISilverRabbit said:


> Hmm, Ok. If I switch to ABA or G60 head from my JH engine I will have to upgrade to digi1 or digi2 from current CIS, correct?
> What is the advantage of cross-flow vs. regular? Adding a turbo with exhaust and intake on one side of the engine is going to be pretty cramped, so I guess an ABA head would help with size constraints.
> Any other thoughts on this setup?


an intake over a VERY HOT exhaust manifold = LOTS OF HEAT SOAK..

intake on front of engine, away from exhaust, almost no heat soak, except from the radiator..

so, the cross flow does help in that aspect..

but, ive been told (by more than one person, i might add) that INTAKE PORTS of the counter-flow head actually flows better when ported similarly to the cross-flow head intake ports..

reason being that the intake ports are at a better angle on the U-flow head.. the X-flow head has the intake ports soo low on the front of the head that they are almost right angles at the actual valve pocket.. the biggest restriction is right before the valve, at the sharp angle in the intake ports.

if it were me, personally, i would just fine a mid 80s 8v GTI head (big valves, maintenance free hydro lifters, accommodations for cis if you need it, and EASILY AVAILABLE)

the gains from the G60 head really arent enough to make it any better of an option than any other 8v head.. and i believe the G60 valves are the same length as any other 8v, because i swear ive seen people use them in boosted engines with non-G60 heads..

if you want to go turbo, just bolt a 16v head on there, and go that route.. you wont regret it.

if you start with a 10:1 2.0L bottom end, and install a 16v head, that will drop your compression to the 8.5:1 region.. perfect for a turbo.. as well as the benefit of the 8 extra valves..


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## EastCoastVeeDub (Jan 7, 2012)

The G60 head is the only gasoline head designed for boost before the mark 4 1.8T's hit the market in '00. So it would serve to reason that the G60 head is the way to go for building a quick and easy boosted motor for an easy application into a mk 1/mk 2.
I remember reading in the FI forum that boost works best with digi 1. Everything you need is basically the entire G60 top end. Head, intake mani, exhaust mani, TB, injectors. The harness and ECU would be useful too. 
I personally would go with a counter flow ABA setup to take advantage of the extra displacement and stroke. But just the counter flow head would work too.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

EastCoastVeeDub said:


> The G60 head is the only gasoline head designed for boost before the mark 4 1.8T's hit the market in '00. So it would serve to reason that the G60 head is the way to go for building a quick and easy boosted motor for an easy application into a mk 1/mk 2.
> I remember reading in the FI forum that boost works best with digi 1. Everything you need is basically the entire G60 top end. Head, intake mani, exhaust mani, TB, injectors. *The harness and ECU are the most desirable part of the whole setup, if you have digi1, you can boost any 8v vw engine.*
> I personally would go with a counter flow ABA setup to take advantage of the extra displacement and stroke. But just the counter flow head would work too.


fixed the bold sentence for you..

the 16v head is way better for boosted applications, than the G60..

you take an ABA, bolt a G60 head on it, and its still 10:1 compression.. no good for boost. the combustion chamber is the same size as every other 8v vw head.. 

take the SAME ABA bottom end, and drop a 16v head on it, and its WAY boost friendly, as well as flows ALOT better than the 8v head..

the entire G60 top end does nothing for making an engine easy to boost. i can take the original 8.5:1 compression engine in my Golf, install digi1, or megasquirt, and have the same end result, without having to source half of a G60 engine..

there is nothing about the G60 top end that makes it as desirable as you make it out to be..

a G60 intake, its not THAT special, a mk1 intake will do the same thing..

the exhaust mani, its just a dual outlet 8v mani, nothing special, still need a turbo manifold if you go that route.

throttle body, there are better ones out there, the stock G60 leaves ALOT to be desired.

injectors, the stock G60 injectors are basically useless too, they dont leave much room for tuning.

the digi1 is the most important part of the G60 engine.. not the actual head and hardware..

people have taken normal 8v and 16v VW engines, and BOOSTED THE CRAP out of them without issues.. you dont NEED a G60 top end to make your engine boost friendly, you just need to know how to make your stock stuff play well with boost. because even with G60 stuff, without the right injection, your engine is still not friendly to boost if the fuel mix cant be altered once boost is present..

any engine will burn down if you cant keep the air/fuel mix in check.. 

sodium valves will not save your engine from a CRAPPY/IMPROPER TUNE!!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

PLEASE...forget you ever thought of digi-1 as an option. It's old, unreliable, and there are NO tuners out there that offer proper chips anymore. I spent a few years playing with the hex in the digi-1 ecu, and realized that it's a lost cause. OBD1 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better .


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## GTISilverRabbit (Mar 15, 2012)

Ok, seems like the G60 head may not be the best option for what I want to do... ABA 8V cross flow or 16V seems favorable. What is a good 16V head to fit my 3A block? Will the ABA stuff fit properly in my mk1? Also, OBD seems like a pretty big undertaking... But I guess if I go through all that trouble I should do it right!


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

just go with an aba head, preferably OBD1, if you were gonna use a 16v head then use a whole 16v engine


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

GTISilverRabbit said:


> Ok, seems like the G60 head may not be the best option for what I want to do... ABA 8V cross flow or 16V seems favorable. What is a good 16V head to fit my 3A block? Will the ABA stuff fit properly in my mk1? Also, OBD seems like a pretty big undertaking... But I guess if I go through all that trouble I should do it right!


if you want boost, use the 2.0 16v head, and convert the 3A to run the 16v head.. if you install 16v pistons in your 3A, you will be back to the 10,8:1 compression, and basically have built a 9A 16v engine the hard way. COMPLETE 9A swaps are usually ~$400 with a trans..

but if you kept your stock 3A pistons, and bolted a 16v head on the engine, it would be ~8.5:1 compression, witch is much better for boost, than the 10:1, or 10.8:1 compression that the other combos would yield..

if you want it updated, use the OBD1 setup, the whole ABA engine (3A has no crank position sensor location)

if you want it to look stock, then use the 3A bottom end, and bolt a mk2 8v GTI head on it, and install it in your rabbit. this option is the absolute easiest, and least amount of work, hands down..

im getting ready to drop an ABF clone into my mk2 GTI.. its a bone stock ABA bottom end, with a bone stock 16v head, and its going to be running on boost-friendly CIS-Lambda..

like i said, based on the fact that you may want boost, i would go the 16v route..

not to mention, the 16v head flows twice as good as an 8v head..


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

just keep in mind if you decide to run a 16v head you have to mill or otherwise clearance valve reliefs into the 8v piston tops and swap over the correct timing gears as the 16v has a wider belt and the accessory pulleys will then be offset as well, you also get stuck choosing your distributor location

if you're going to keep it simple, then any 8v head will bolt right on: mk1-early mk2 solid lifter, mk2 hydro lifter, mk3 aba (all 8v heads newer than CIS-basic can have the injector bungs swapped out to run electronic fuel injection (Digi2, G60 Digi1, Mk3 Motronic OBD1/2, any standalone system like megasquirt, dta p8pro, autronic, sds, 034 Ic)
yes you can run a turbo on a counterflow head, I'm in the middle of doing that right now, you just have some tight clearances back there. aba will have more space to run bigger/better turbos and manifolds as well as less heat soak of the intake manifold


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

L33t A2 said:


> *just keep in mind if you decide to run a 16v head you have to mill or otherwise clearance valve reliefs into the 8v piston tops* and swap over the correct timing gears as the 16v has a wider belt and the accessory pulleys will then be offset as well, you also get stuck choosing your distributor location
> 
> if you're going to keep it simple, then any 8v head will bolt right on: mk1-early mk2 solid lifter, mk2 hydro lifter, mk3 aba (all 8v heads newer than CIS-basic can have the injector bungs swapped out to run electronic fuel injection (Digi2, G60 Digi1, Mk3 Motronic OBD1/2, any standalone system like megasquirt, dta p8pro, autronic, sds, 034 Ic)
> yes you can run a turbo on a counterflow head, I'm in the middle of doing that right now, you just have some tight clearances back there. aba will have more space to run bigger/better turbos and manifolds as well as less heat soak of the intake manifold


says who? tell that to all the UNMODIFIED aba bottom ends running 16v heads..

with stock cams, the valves clear fine..

with BIG cams, you need valve pockets.


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## GTISilverRabbit (Mar 15, 2012)

Ok, seems like I have several options:



Stick with my current 8v (JH) head....booooring.
Get a newer (85-87) GTI head with hydraulic liters.
Upgrade to 8V ABA head (OBD1)
G60 head

16V conversion is a little too drastic at this point and might follow at a later point in time.

The ABA is the only cross-flow head and seems to be the most reasonable option.
Will this also be the best choice for my forced induction goal?

Thanks for your help guys!


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

aba = crossflow aka xflow
and yes best bet for easy 8v turbo


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## GTISilverRabbit (Mar 15, 2012)

Which 8V ABA head is the preferred head (year and code)? I read some stuff about versions with and without air pump.... It should be OBD1 from what I found in different threads.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

GTISilverRabbit said:


> Ok, seems like I have several options:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you obviously know NOTHING about converting your engine to run a 16v head, do you?

if it were me, i would sell the 3A, or keep it, and just spend a couple hundo on a COMPLETE 16v engine, and drop it in. then you got your 3A on the bench to rebuild, and boost..

why are you soo set on only 8 valves? and so against the 16v? 16v engines are NOT desirable anymore, not like they used to be. they are not worth as much as gold anymore. you can get a WHOLE 16v swap for ~400 bucks.. like, WHOLE engine, trans, and the whole wiring/injection system..

if you want 200hp easily, go with a 16v. hell, the 2.0L are ~140hp FACTORY!

and if you ask me, the G60 head, and the mk2 GTI 8v head are basically the same option.. the G60 head is going to be no better than the GTI head..

sodium filled valves are nice, in theory, but a solid stainless valve is WAY TOUGHER, because it doesnt have a hollow valve stem.

the G60 head has the same combustion chamber, valve diameters, port shapes, and everything IDENTICAL to a regular ol 8v head.

with the G60 head, you are limited to EFI, or ghetto rigging your CIS injectors into the DIGI head.. the 8v GTI head was factory set up to accept air shrouded CIS injectors..

so, it sounds like you are KEEPING cis for the time being, so i would lean towards the GTI head, over the G60 head. besides, the G60 head is going to be $$$$, while the GTI head is only going to be $..

changing an 8v motor over to run a 16v head is NOT HARD OR EXPENSIVE AT ALL.. the benefits are TOTALLY WORTH IT!


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

GTISilverRabbit said:


> Which 8V ABA head is the preferred head (year and code)? I read some stuff about versions with and without air pump.... It should be OBD1 from what I found in different threads.


Yeah they made the ABA from 93-99, it was in almost every mk3 golf/jetta and b4 passat
OBD1 should be 93-95 and usually not have an air pump, which is desired
OBD2 would be 96+ and usually has air pump, the ports can be blocked off
The telltale difference is that on the air pump heads there is an additional port next to each exhaust port on the back



Glegor said:


> you obviously know NOTHING...
> 
> blah blah blah more CAPS LOCK yelling


Chill out man he asked a simple question, don't force your ideals onto other people


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

L33t A2 said:


> Yeah they made the ABA from 93-99, it was in almost every mk3 golf/jetta and b4 passat
> OBD1 should be 93-95 and usually not have an air pump, which is desired
> OBD2 would be 96+ and usually has air pump, the ports can be blocked off
> The telltale difference is that on the air pump heads there is an additional port next to each exhaust port on the back
> ...


im sorry if caps are understood as yelling, but i use caps when i want to MAKE A POINT, and make something stand out as IMPORTANT..

im not yelling, and im not worked up.. it just bugs me when ignorant people ignore info that you are posting, in an attempt to educate someone on their options..


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