# Twin VRT Drag Car Build



## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Twin engine VRT Drag Car Build*

Hi, I am building a new drag car. I have been hesitant to start a thread on vortex, but what the hell. I am going to need some help from you expert's so I think its worth all the flaming. I have been out of the vw racing mix for about 5 years. I have been itching to build another race car, this time I am going BIG. My goal is to join the 8 second club  With 1600+ AWD HP I dont think that is too lofty of a goal. 

So here is some info: 
Looking to build a twin engine drag car with 12V vrt's 

Engine: 
SP stage 3 short block 
SCCH ported 12V heads 
TT big valves upgrade 
titanium retainers 
Solid lifters 
TT 288 solid cams 
SP intake 
3" throttle body 
AFI twinn Scroll turbo mani 
Precision pt 1000 AWIC 
Garrett GTX-4294R turbo 

Transmission/Drive terrain 
02M FSR case 
SQS custom gear kit (see photo for ratios) 
Peloquin diffs 
SQS SEQ-E shifters 
Clutch Masters 850 twin disc Race 
Drive shaft shop custom stage 5 axles 
SDezego hybrid mounts 

going to run wilwood pedals with twin masters to operate the dual clutches. And 2 seq-e shifters that can operate the trannys separately to do both front and rear burnouts separately. 

TIG welded chromolly roll cage and chassis 


Car is at the Hanksville hotrods in denver, They are doing the chassis and roll cage, this is what is done so far..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

These are the gear kits I have. They are being installed at SP right now, waiting on the peloquins.. 



















Turbo manifolds Im going to use, Should be ready this week...


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So, the first thing I am going to need help with is, What A/R housing should I use? 
I am ordering a turbo's next week, as the chassis shop needs it for mock up. 

I am going to need a wide power band to accommodate the super tall gears. 
RPM drop of 2350 looking for a good powerband from 4650 to 7000 RPM 

This is a DYNO sheet of a 12V Vr that I found on the net. It looks like It would work for my gearing, but I would like to do much better. 
Plan to run on E85 with lugtronics. 

Also anyone know what throttle bodies are an easy bolt up to the SP intake? 3" 











Im going to be making some custom rear control arms. Anyone know if I should lose the rear sway bar or keep it?


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

subscribed! looks like fun  

opcorn:


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

cool


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

H


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

Looks insane. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

This should be awesome


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

opcorn:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Very nice start! 

opcorn:


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

pretty crazy..i like it :thumbup:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

Somebody on here is craizier than me!! I like it!! subscribed!! Mike:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## the mad conductor (Nov 12, 2009)

surf green :thumbup:


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

you should start a thread on motorgeek for this. lots of great minds and projects over there, should be able to help with a lot of issues you'll encounter


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Hohoho... What havent been done to a Golf before ? You sure use proper parts and think way out of the box :laugh:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

There is no word for the amount of legitimacy that is this build.


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## AceWaters (Sep 2, 2008)

four wheel steering too eh? neat.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

insane:thumbup::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

AceWaters said:


> four wheel steering too eh? neat.


 Yep, the 4ws and the rear sway bar will def come in handy keeping me straight down the track.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Seat pedals and steering are next on the list..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Looks like I got burned by Brad Ratliff from AFI turbo. Just realized they are out of business and JDL is the new company making manifolds. Had to file paypal claims


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MK123GTi said:


> Looks like I got burned by Brad Ratliff from AFI turbo. Just realized they are out of business and JDL is the new company making manifolds. Had to file paypal claims


 bummer to hear man....Ronnie @ JDL will take care of you! they are jam up guys!:thumbup:


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

fouckhest said:


> bummer to hear man....Ronnie @ JDL will take care of you! they are jam up guys!:thumbup:


They most definitely will take care of you :thumbup:

In for this build, the fab work is already killing it :heart:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

That blows.. but like mentioned above, the guys at JDL are :thumbup::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

AJmustDIE said:


> That blows.. but like mentioned above, the guys at JDL are :thumbup::thumbup:


Well, brad finaly emailed me back the other day and assured me I was getting the manifolds soon. But he has been telling me that for weeks, we'll see, I really hope AFI comes through..


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

This is taking FI to the max.
I hope you dont put wings on this beast..it will fly..

In for the haul.
Steve


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Steering and pedals. :thumbup:


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Awesome :beer:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Nice.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2009)

badass :laugh:


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

MK123GTi said:


> Yep, the 4ws and the rear sway bar will def come in handy keeping me straight down the track.


why would you EVER want rear steering at any speed over 10-15? it has a much higher effective ratio vs front steering. it would make it much more difficult to keep straight


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

awesome.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

my2000APB said:


> why would you EVER want rear steering at any speed over 10-15? it has a much higher effective ratio vs front steering. it would make it much more difficult to keep straight


Come on really :screwy:


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## Vee-DubbVR6 (Jul 31, 2007)

Wow, awesome things happening here! :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the good vibes everyone 

Man I really have to hand it to hanksville hot rods in denver, they have gone above and beyond my expectations with the fab work, My ass will defiantly be sore for a while but in the end I it will be worth it. I was really hoping to keep the headlights full stock with the dual radiators, but its not in the cards. I will be building some custom stock looking lenses over the winter. Im looking to get all the fab work done by early sept, Then It heads back to my shop for me to try to make this contraption work over the winter.

they are working on the floor now, and next up is the custom intake and exhaust plumbing. 

I really hope to have a to have an exhaust manifold to work with for the mock up, Hopefully someone will come through this week. 

It is realy awesome to be working with a shop that I can explain exactly what needs to be done and they get it done :thumbup::thumbup:. My car sat there for 6 months before they even started on it but it was worth the wait. I hope to see this thing running next spring. 

I am looking to use some custom lugtronic standalone ecu's for the build, from what I have read, I had better get on the list now if I want this thing to start by jan 2014. But if that doesnt work out I am pretty good with the dta system. Is the VEMS system any more difficult to use? 

:beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

my2000APB said:


> you should start a thread on motorgeek for this. lots of great minds and projects over there, should be able to help with a lot of issues you'll encounter


You might be right, Ill do that when I get to work on it this fall. I thought there would be more discussion/input on the car and ideas for the turbo's, gearboxes, shifting...... The only feedback was my 4 wheel steering idea, that got shot down pretty quick.. but I guess for now its a picture thread 
Just to clarify I was joking about the rear steering...
:thumbup:


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

Love this project!! Really looking forward for this beast alive ripping up the track! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

When you have a build with this level of complexity, I think it speaks volumes as to why you haven't received much feedback. It appears that you have most in order and have thought things out, and comments or suggestions might seem unwarranted.

I haven't seen one thing so far that I would question (except for maybe the sanity of the owner) haha. Seriously, this thing is looking absolutely insane. I can't imagine having to buy [2] of everything 

As far as VEMS, I have no 1st hand experience, only a lot of research from the past before I got involved with mega squirt many years back. Both are viable options, andi can tell you that MSIII is pretty damn amazing and the software is very easy to use. Tuning is a joy!

No experience with DTA either.

Keep it up!


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

You are exceeding the knowledge base of many on here and only a few can respond with opinions, but don't be put off as your watched post count speaks for itself.
Steve


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> I am looking to use some custom lugtronic standalone ecu's for the build, from what I have read, I had better get on the list now if I want this thing to start by jan 2014. But if that doesnt work out I am pretty good with the dta system. Is the VEMS system any more difficult to use?
> 
> :beer:


Having worked with the different tuning interfaces, VEMS and Tunerstudio are both above and beyond anything DTA has. Not even in the same league so if you've used DTA you'll be blown away by these others that are under constant refinement and improvement.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm in awe of your fab skills. Keep it up, can't wait to see this thing rip.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

DieGTi said:


> Having worked with the different tuning interfaces, VEMS and Tunerstudio are both above and beyond anything DTA has. Not even in the same league so if you've used DTA you'll be blown away by these others that are under constant refinement and improvement.


Thanks, I haven't tuned or worked with any standalone in more than 5 years, Im sure its a whole new ball game now. I cant wait to learn all the new software.



24vGTiVR6 said:


> I'm in awe of your fab skills. Keep it up, can't wait to see this thing rip.


Me too, I wish I could say they were my fab skills, I just explained how I wanted it built and the fab shop made it happen. Funny seeing my Gti in the same shop with real dragsters and prostock cars.

Flooring is starting to go in now. Intake and exhaust next week if I can get a manifold.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

sTT eV6 said:


> You are exceeding the knowledge base of many on here and only a few can respond with opinions, but don't be put off as your watched post count speaks for itself.
> Steve


I understand, I'm sure ill be able to get some great help from the community when I need it. Over the winter is when the real fun begins.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Do you have to run independent SDS's ?

Or if using identical setups could you run both motors off the same configuration using something like dbw throttles?


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

sub-d


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

Awesome build, this thing is raw :thumbup::beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Pretty much at a halt till I can get a turbo mani, Hoping to have one by monday


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

ejg3855 said:


> Do you have to run independent SDS's ?
> 
> Or if using identical setups could you run both motors off the same configuration using something like dbw throttles?


By sds do you mean engine ecu. Then yes they will be 2 separate systems. It will be drive by cable with 2 throttle cables attached to 1 pedal. Thought about trying to use a dbw setup, but decided against it.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Got an email from the shop the other day "will the front motor still be using power steering?" Yes I replied, looks like they made the front crossmember before the engine was in and this was thier fix. Looks like it will work but, It also looks like a goof. Might have them redo it, not sure yet. 

Let it ride???


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

id have no problems with that. its solid and not visible :thumbup:


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

dude this is ****ing dope!!!!!!!! and you're in colorado like WTF! this is awesome! 

you should run twin 6766 billet ball bearing turbos with T4.82 or 96 housings!


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> Got an email from the shop the other day "will the front motor still be using power steering?" Yes I replied, looks like they made the front crossmember before the engine was in and this was thier fix. Looks like it will work but, It also looks like a goof. Might have them redo it, not sure yet.
> 
> Let it ride???


and

The bar is ok structurally, but I would have gotten away from the stock endplates and subframe bushings. You'll have slop from those.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Those bushings are just for mock up, I have steel solid bushings for up front. I guess its ok for now, guessing it weighs about 1/2 what the stock one did. 

The turbos I went with are Garrett GTX4294R- 1.15 a/r. Bill Schimmel made the A/R recomendation.


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

sweet good luck with the build :thumbup:


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

bring it to the east coast!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Wow !! By far the sickest built on vortex.. Keep it up bro:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## vwmotorsports (Oct 23, 2000)

I'd have them redo the passenger side of the front crossmember. They can cut the tube off at the donut that the forward mount bolts into. Why not at this point?


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

are you using rubber for the two inserts between custom motor mount rails and subframe?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Might have them redo it, Ill see on my next visit

I have the steel front crossmember bushings. They are solid and worked great in the past for me..

http://www.eurosportacc.com/collect...gine-carrier-bushing-set-vw-mk2-and-mk3-all-1


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

delrin, good choice :thumbup:


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

DieGTi said:


> Having worked with the different tuning interfaces, VEMS and Tunerstudio are both above and beyond anything DTA has. Not even in the same league so if you've used DTA you'll be blown away by these others that are under constant refinement and improvement.


 This! I highly recommend Kevin for this project for best results. He is busy for a reason-- you waited 6 months for the fab shop to start on your car and you're glad you did. Keep that in mind when you make your engine management/ tuning decisions.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Mark Morris said:


> This! I highly recommend Kevin for this project for best results. He is busy for a reason-- you waited 6 months for the fab shop to start on your car and you're glad you did. Keep that in mind when you make your engine management/ tuning decisions.


 ^^^ This.


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## stntman (Sep 19, 2002)

this is amazing!!!! 

makes me want to stop being lazy and find a way to make more money to get my car rolling. 


if i had panties on they would be off on the floor. because they dropped at this point


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Sick build. I wanna know how the shifter mechanism is gonna work. I highly doubt your gonna have two shifters.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

It has 2 shifters, they will lock together with a removable pin, so they will work together and separately as well. Car can do separate front and rear burnouts. And drive as a fwd or rwd..


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

In for this local insane build up. :beer:


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## Beitz DUB (Sep 22, 2008)

:thumbup:


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> It has 2 shifters, they will lock together with a removable pin, so they will work together and separately as well. Car can do separate front and rear burnouts. And drive as a fwd or rwd..


 Gonna be insane. Love this build.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Hmm sooo, theoretically you could do front and rear burnouts in different directions at the same time. I've been looking for that for a while now. =) 

Car reminds me of the "big dub", but seems like a lot more work is going into this chassis. :thumbup: :beer:


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## GRN6IX (Jan 2, 2003)

'dubber said:


> Hmm sooo, theoretically you could do front and rear burnouts in different directions at the same time. I've been looking for that for a while now. =)


 Done here in spectacular fashion (1:40ish): 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlAyaCKVBTQ


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

If this thing works, lots of fun burnouts to try. Not sure If I want to risk the sqs kits with one in reverse. Would be cool though using the hand brakes to float it forward and backwards.. 

Not much going now till I get the manifolds.. 

Door bars are in.


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MK123GTi said:


> Not much going now till I get the manifolds..
> 
> Door bars are in.


 you should cancel and get in line with JDL, going to be better in the long run for you seeing how long you've waited already


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

^^^ He did, and I think he should have one in hand very soon. :thumbup: 

Great build going on here :wave:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

fouckhest said:


> you should cancel and get in line with JDL, going to be better in the long run for you seeing how long you've waited already


 LOL, did that a month ago.. Jdl said they would have one done in 2 weeks.. Last I hard from them they said it was shipping out tomorrow.. Good one.. That was July 30... JDL's facebook page is littered with complaints as well, people waiting 11+ weeks for parts.. Im sure they do quality work but it is a 1 welding man show. Same with AFI.. If they were honest up front about the wait times it wouldn't be a problem, I could plan around them. I paid for the AFI manifolds on April 24th If Brad would have said I was getting them on August 13 ( today  ) That would have been fine.. When you promise parts on a certain date and dont deliver anything but excuses, to me that is just bad business.. Im sure they are great quality parts but damn.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Got a load of parts to drop off at the fab shop today. 

Nightmare continues with the manifolds 




























Tube does not clear the oil pump shaft housing. Had to heat it up and bang it in to get it to clear. Seems to defeat the purpose with the tubular header. 
Brad at afi said he was sorry for the inconvenience.. 










Even sanded some off the block.. 




























Not sure what to do at this point...:banghead:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## rtolay (Dec 14, 2005)

I have an afi top mount on my vr6 and it sits perfect without any issues. If I were u ill wait for the right manifold instead. Did both manifolds touch?


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2013)

We have been on the hunt for another welder and finally today we got a new guy working. Our plan was to bump you in front of a few orders but that wasn't possible until today. The new guy started working on pending orders so Jesse can finish yours. He is wrapping it personally tonight/tomorrow and will have one in your hands by the weekend





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Worth the wait for quality and having things done right 
1. your fab shop 
2. Kevin/lugtronic 
3. JDL 

Great progress and thread so far!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thought Id share my Highschool ride in 91. Was racing mustangs back then. This is the only photo i have, Its one of the first 16v rabbits ever... Whipped 5.0's light to light and around the corners.. 










crashed it then built the motor into this 










10 years later I owened a South Florida car stereo shop and built this contraption 

same car. 
















































Then it turned into this 










The VW world hated me for the above, but oh well.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Ooooo, that Wayne Wells.....


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## tylerlb (Jun 13, 2004)

subscribed


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## 20VT*J4 (Aug 28, 2001)

tylerlb said:


> subscribed


:thumbup:


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## bizybyker (May 25, 2005)

M f'n IN


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## mk42002 (Aug 12, 2013)

*wtf!!!*

why did this thread end????????????? i got a chub from the pics and then ...nothing????


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

The GTX42RS choice is really cool. Good luck with your manifolds. Awesome build going on here.


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## newguy8873 (May 18, 2011)

very sweet looking sign me up


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

In Fer moar! :vampire:


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## subisan (Mar 30, 2009)

oh my god.


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## whit_yo (Oct 6, 2010)

subisan said:


> oh my god.


x2. Thank you Zach for directing me to this. opcorn:


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## Crispy222 (Mar 10, 2008)

my2000APB said:


> why would you EVER want rear steering at any speed over 10-15? it has a much higher effective ratio vs front steering. it would make it much more difficult to keep straight


http://www.thrustssc.com/thrustssc/Engineering/rearster.html

In for the rest!!!


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2013)

On its way!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

^ Nice!


BTW: love the old school pics  I have a few of those myself


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## bizybyker (May 25, 2005)

I dono looks a little like lack of fusion or cold lap on some of those flange welds  I'm just jelly because I spray .45 solid mig all day on structural beams/columns... what I would give to weld TIG for an auto tuner company.... my tie-ins would look better too. :laugh::laugh: I kid I kid looks perdy damn good and I bet its a bitch to weld up too, looks like you would need quite a bit of stick out to get around those pipes on the flange. And as a professional welder who is curious, what do you pay your tig welders? PM me if you can I just wondered if they start out much higher than me, I will top out in a few weeks when my 90 days are up at my most recent gig @ 17/hr unless I start fitting. Sucks when I hold a 6G AWS card (SMAW) but no one is looking for pipe welders around me.

Gas Tyte all day SON!!!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Manifold looks great, Thanks for sequential injection, As if the 12V head doesn't pose enough problems. We r defiantly welding in 6 o2 sensors in these mani's. lol, I have burned more than my share of pistons. No fun doing blow bys on the dyno...

Still looking for a qualified head porter.... ????


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## taylorpro (May 20, 2011)

amazing craftsmanship. in for this.


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## Basil Fawlty (Sep 7, 2003)

:thumbup: opcorn:


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## xthechadx (Sep 6, 2005)

First i have to say AMAZING build so far, but being that the Inter Cooler for the rear engine is mount in the front wont there be more turbo lag on the rear engine vs the front engine? causeing different power curves?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Awic's will be in the normal positions..


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> Manifold looks great, Thanks for sequential injection, As if the 12V head doesn't pose enough problems. We r defiantly welding in 6 o2 sensors in these mani's. lol, I have burned more than my share of pistons. No fun doing blow bys on the dyno...
> 
> Still looking for a qualified head porter.... ????


I use these guys for my heads..
http://www.cncheads.co.uk/?cat=34
Bit far away from ya though.
Steve


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## Tourenwagen (Dec 28, 2002)

sub'd :thumbup:


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

MK123GTi said:


> Manifold looks great, Thanks for sequential injection, As if the 12V head doesn't pose enough problems. We r defiantly welding in 6 o2 sensors in these mani's. lol, I have burned more than my share of pistons. No fun doing blow bys on the dyno...
> 
> Still looking for a qualified head porter.... ????




you should really look into running lab grade EGT sensors and not 02 sensors, o2's will burn up very very very fast when located pre-turbine


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Will just be for tuning on the dyno only. Then they will be plugged up..


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

MK123GTi said:


> Will just be for tuning on the dyno only. Then they will be plugged up..


I know, youre going to go through a ****load even jstu for dynotime


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Manifold fits great, Just a little clearance issue with the waste gate clamp..


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2013)

We clamped on a gate here with a Borge Warner T4 1.44 housing. Did you try it with a clamp yet? There are slight variances between housings. Also the jig keeps the gates close for firewall clearance on more stock cars


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

that turbo is massive!! :thumbup::thumbup:
cant believe you are running 2 of those monsters :laugh:

sick!


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Jesus, when do you plan on seeing boost with a 1.44 housing?!?!? Will you be even able to rev that high and make use of it? 


I think my 24v will run out of breath with a t4 .81 6266 and 8k rev limit...


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## dailygolfer (Mar 16, 2013)

In for the numbers :laugh:


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

This build is truely unique, and very impressive.

Why not one engine though? The dyno you posted on the first page is a friend of mines. He should be deep into the 10s this year in an almost 4000 lb A4 Avant. With a light chassis and a solid RWD setup I would imagine 8s would be possible for you.

I assume your motivations are not just to go fast, but rather to have something this cool / ridiculous. Which I fully support, btw, I'm just curious.


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## joeydee (Jul 14, 2012)

This build is on point


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

joeydee said:


> This build is on point


Go back to the MK4 forums!


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## freedo84gti (Sep 26, 2010)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

1broknrado said:


> Jesus, when do you plan on seeing boost with a 1.44 housing?!?!? Will you be even able to rev that high and make use of it?
> 
> 
> I think my 24v will run out of breath with a t4 .81 6266 and 8k rev limit...



Well I tried to get input on the A/R weeks ago, I even started a thread just to try to get a recommendation. The only feedback I got was from Bill schimmell. I bought the turbos from him. 

I asked..

Bill, hey, I plan on ordering the turbos this week. Maybe you could give me some input. I plan to run GTX4294r turbos. Could you give me a an A/R recommendation? Im looking for a powerband of 4350 to 7000 rpm's to go with the gearkits I have

Reply::
Bruce,

Assuming they are 3.0l vr6 I would go with the 1.15a/r. you may want boost to come on little sooner with awd


These are the turbos Bill schimmel recomended to me, So thats what I went with. If they are the wrong ones then I will have to switch them. 
The car had a GT4094R with a 1.06 a/r housing and it spooled just fine


What is your choice? Why?

Thanks





lorge1989 said:


> This build is truely unique, and very impressive.
> I assume your motivations are not just to go fast, but rather to have something this cool / ridiculous. Which I fully support, btw, I'm just curious.


Thanks, And you pretty much got it. 
If I just wanted to go fast, I would buy a 8 second dragster.. "lame"

I like the Idea splitting the load between 2 02m's and separate burnouts... Possibly a sport compact HP record. Plus I had a lot of friends that said I was crazy and It will never work.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> We clamped on a gate here with a Borge Warner T4 1.44 housing. Did you try it with a clamp yet? There are slight variances between housings. Also the jig keeps the gates close for firewall clearance on more stock cars


It will be just fine, The manifold is a piece of artwork :thumbup: Just have to shave 1/4 inch off the garrett housing, Using Tial 38's


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## AKrett (Dec 18, 2001)

opcorn::thumbup:


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## DankNugz (May 19, 2007)

I love how every part on this build has to be mentioned in the plural. :screwy:

Keep up the good work :thumbup::beer:


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## GaugeDoisher (Oct 25, 2009)

opcorn:


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## Old Windy (Apr 1, 2009)

In. :thumbup::heart::thumbup:opcorn:


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## misternoob (Oct 25, 2009)

And I thought I was going all out with plasti dip :laugh:.

This is awesome :beer:.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

will this be ready for fixxfest?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

2014 if I'm lucky


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Fantastic speed your progressing at.
Just 3 questions.
1. Are you going to clock the compressor side of the turbo to allow you to run pipework over the top of the engine as opposed to out of the bonnet/hood?
2. Compressor inlet looks tightish against the strut housing, how do you plan to route the intake?
3. I ran a Tial 38mm on my setup and it couldnt cope with WOT discharge and started to creep.
I now run a Turbosmart Hypergate 45mm which copes ok. Is your 38mm going to cope?

Right hand drive builds seem to have more room in the bay for the intake side due to the turbo setup fixed the other way round..
Steve


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Turbo will be clocked about 45 towards the rear. Firewall will be cut out for clearance. So every thing will be under the hood.
Each manifold will have 2 38mm waste gates. I hope that is enough.. I had a single 38 before on the gt4094r with no issues. Compressor intakes will be left open..


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> Turbo will be clocked about 45 towards the rear. Firewall will be cut out for clearance. So every thing will be under the hood.
> Each manifold will have 2 38mm waste gates. I hope that is enough.. I had a single 38 before on the gt4094r with no issues. Compressor intakes will be left open..


Sweet..
Steve


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## capt211 (Jan 11, 2012)

MK123GTi said:


> I had a lot of friends that said I was crazy and It will never work.


lol. the truth comes out 



Someone calling me a ***** has gotten me into trouble more than once


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Im speechless as to how awesome the guy who is fabing this up for me is.. Above and beyond for sure :thumbup:


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## theguy831 (Feb 28, 2011)

sub'd :thumbup::thumbup:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> Im speechless as to how awesome the guy who is fabing this up for me is.. Above and beyond for sure :thumbup:


Agreed! awesome fab work


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## im_lower (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow! Subscribed :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

my2000APB said:


> I know, youre going to go through a ****load even jstu for dynotime


Back Pressure Compensation for Accurate, Pre-Turbo, Individual-Runner AFR Readings
Eliminate the need for averaged post-turbo AFR readings. Sensors can be mounted pre-turbo by using AEM’s optional Exhaust Back Pressure Compensation Kit (PN#30-2064). This allows AEM’s 4-Channel Wideband Air/Fuel UEGO Controller to deliver accurate AFR readings that are unaffected by pre-turbo back pressure.


http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband-air-fuel-systems-15/4-channel-wideband-uego-controller-60/

Was planning on using these for tuning


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Before you order wideband, I think you mentioned using Lugtronic. Lugtronic has built in wideband controller and is used for the tuning.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

MK123GTi said:


> Well I tried to get input on the A/R weeks ago, I even started a thread just to try to get a recommendation. The only feedback I got was from Bill schimmell. I bought the turbos from him.
> 
> I asked..
> 
> ...


Well that is the turbo I plan on running once all said it done. Lots of research and planning before I buy anything. 

But from my research, with t4 housings, a .68 @ 3900 .84 @4200-4300 .96 @4500 rpm full boost. I'm not even sure where a higher than that would kick in. But hey, Bill has way more experience and knowledge than I do, this is just what i've found with my search button. I would take his word over mine any day, most of my facts and information are from reading peoples posts all over the vortex.


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## Zyoid (Feb 25, 2008)

opcorn: :thumbup::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

bonesaw said:


> Before you order wideband, I think you mentioned using Lugtronic. Lugtronic has built in wideband controller and is used for the tuning.


I think the VEMS has one wideband controler for post turbo tuning. With the aem we can tune each cylinder as needed..




1broknrado said:


> Well that is the turbo I plan on running once all said it done. Lots of research and planning before I buy anything.
> 
> But from my research, with t4 housings, a .68 @ 3900 .84 @4200-4300 .96 @4500 rpm full boost. I'm not even sure where a higher than that would kick in. But hey, Bill has way more experience and knowledge than I do, this is just what i've found with my search button. I would take his word over mine any day, most of my facts and information are from reading peoples posts all over the vortex.


Would you care to share where you got the above info. A lot of other factors to consider, cams, manifolds, displacement exc. A t4 gt40 on a 2.8 vr6 with a cast manifold and stock cams would spool much different than a highly modified 3.0..

these are the only housing options for my turbo's. Gtx's spool quicker then others. Im going to use the 1.15s for now.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

MK123GTi said:


> I think the VEMS has one wideband controler for post turbo tuning. With the aem we can tune each cylinder as needed..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I didn't factor in those types of variances, which is why Bill would know better than I do! 

Honestly there isn't a straight set thread or post where I got the info. I hate posting stupid threads, so it's just hours of searching and reading threads and putting general conscensus info together.


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## bizybyker (May 25, 2005)

MK123GTi said:


> Im speechless as to how awesome the guy who is fabing this up for me is.. Above and beyond for sure :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Anyone have any thoughts on the eurospec stroker kits.

Was thinking about the r23 crankshaft and the JE 83.5mm 8.5/1 I would have to go with shorter rods 159mm instead of the 164mm. 

Displacement 3150

I did some searching but I couldnt find any info on a successful build.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

arent the kits using the r32 crank?


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## Fastvolks (Apr 30, 2003)

:thumbup:


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## 87'moneypit (May 15, 2003)

:thumbup:


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## kingREPTAR (Jul 27, 2012)

absolutely phenomenal


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

subscribed


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## ktm524 (Jul 26, 2012)

:beer:opcorn:


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## mpowertech (Mar 9, 2012)

In for the win:thumbup:

Amazing fab so far. Great vision.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Throttlebody adapter will be a little different for the fuel line clearence


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## AceWaters (Sep 2, 2008)

Good lord. That turbo looks like it could eat a small dog and not skip a beat. fantastic!:beer::beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Dual 4 inch exhaust on a GTi.. :laugh:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## joeydee (Jul 14, 2012)

You have some serious skill


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

Just have to chime in here, awesome build!

But I would guess that someone building something of this magnitude would know that the Blowoff goes as close to the turbo as possible, not the throttle body.


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## gnavs (Jun 9, 2006)

in for updates :beer:


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## 03_uni-B (Sep 6, 2005)

MK123GTi said:


> It has 2 shifters, they will lock together with a removable pin, so they will work together and separately as well. Car can do separate front and rear burnouts. And drive as a fwd or rwd..


Was going to ask. Awesome solution.

I will be watching this.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

fancyTHIS said:


> Just have to chime in here, awesome build!
> 
> But I would guess that someone building something of this magnitude would know that the Blowoff goes as close to the turbo as possible, not the throttle body.


Thanks

I have heard many arguments for before and after the IC, care to share yours?
From what i gather they will work fine in either location.

If anyone else would like to offer their opinion I am open for suggestions, they wont be welded in place till next week.


looks to be plenty of room before the IC on this race car..


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

Please tell me you are going to register this car....of course outside of the Denver area to avoid emissions & inspections.  Just tint the windows.:laugh:


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## 24ValveGLI (Mar 20, 2005)

I will def follow this. opcorn:


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

I use a Tial50mm after turbo before Intercooler.
Keeps heat down in the I/C system and no turbo stall when shifting gears at full boost.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

REPOMAN said:


> I use a Tial50mm after turbo before Intercooler.
> Keeps heat down in the I/C system and no turbo stall when shifting gears at full boost.


Thanks for the reply.

I had the BOV before the intercooler before I tore it down, It worked fine.

I think Ill just put it on the HOT side, seems to be the majority..


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

you will be fine with the bov both before and after the ic as long as there is no pressure drop(and i dont think you will have that with the short pipes/big a/w ic):thumbup: go on


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

^^^


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## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

:thumbup:


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## Robski92 (Sep 26, 2011)

Amazing work.


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## OneSloRngr (May 3, 2008)

In :thumbup:


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## pbahle (Jan 11, 2013)

i just got to the end of this and felt a strong panic when i realized there was no more  phenomenal build and great to see something batsh*t crazy. keep up the good work


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)




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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

I don't even want to know how much something like this costs. Your fab shop is working fast. :thumbup:


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

awesome build in to see the finish and the results, should easily be in the low 9s high 8s and one heck of a ride.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Not much going on this week, Seems the fab guy changed the inter-cooler mount location on me because in the rear it would hit the roll bar and I said I wanted the front and rear to be the same.. So I think this one will be in the rear and the front inter cooler will be closer to the fender to allow room for the coil packs. Coil packs might be relocated in the rear..

While 8 second passes are cool, Im not going to speculate what it will do. Still a long way off from the track. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

VR6-GT42RS said:


> you will be fine with the bov both before and after the ic as long as there is no pressure drop(and i dont think you will have that with the short pipes/big a/w ic):thumbup: go on


Thanks, they are going on the hot side. thats where they will fit best.. I often look to your thread for reference. Planning on using your fuel setup as a guide for mine. Hope you dont mind if I pick your brain when the time comes. Your car set the bar :thumbup:




pbahle said:


> i just got to the end of this and felt a strong panic when i realized there was no more  phenomenal build and great to see something batsh*t crazy. keep up the good work


Yep its pretty crazy. Original plan was to leave the front setup as it was and just add one in the rear, that plan has changed. I feel like forest gump, running across america. "well I ran this far, might as well keep on runninga"

Bill, has the gearboxes ready :thumbup: I should have them back in a week or so. 

I also put in an order to lugtronics. Kevin said he was at least on a 8 week back log. Which is fine because I wont need them till Christmas. I ordered the wire in ecu's...


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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

Im so glad this build is in a Mk3 Gti! Everything I'm seeing for power and tune-ability with VEMS stand alone has pushed me to swap out my C2 tune and get the Wire in ECU. Are you going to use an android tablet for your gauges? Great job on spectacular build! I've been waiting years for someone to do something this extreme.:beer::beer::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

96vwgolfracer said:


> Im so glad this build is in a Mk3 Gti! Everything I'm seeing for power and tune-ability with VEMS stand alone has pushed me to swap out my C2 tune and get the Wire in ECU. Are you going to use an android tablet for your gauges? Great job on spectacular build! I've been waiting years for someone to do something this extreme.:beer::beer::thumbup:


Cool idea, I haven't thought of that. I didnt know there war a droid app. I checked it out and it seems very cool. I will definatly be giving this some thought. 2 dash mounted tablets would definatly save me some work and money on autometer guages. Ill have to see how visibility would be in the daytime but its worth some experimenting.










2 of these displays in a custom built dash would be dope for sure..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

quick question, do you think it would have been better to run the pipe off the compressor straight forward over the top of the motor, and then to the intercooler, rather than directly over the hotside of the turbo / downpipe? It looks like it's gonna be pretty close, so I'd assume that's gonna get baking hot, and transfer a lot of heat to that pipe


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Slayer said:


> quick question, do you think it would have been better to run the pipe off the compressor straight forward over the top of the motor, and then to the intercooler, rather than directly over the hotside of the turbo / downpipe? It looks like it's gonna be pretty close, so I'd assume that's gonna get baking hot, and transfer a lot of heat to that pipe


Good question..

Yea I wanted it to go that way, The tubular top mount manifold puts the turbo closer to the engine that the cast ATP rear mount one does. Plus with the larger turbo it would have put the pipes way to far forward to make it possible. 










This car (above) has the same manifold with a smaller turbo. With the plumbing going to the right side to the AWIC it wouldn't have worked. Im planning on having the down pipe ceramic coated and wrapped. Will also make a heat shield of some kind as well. Im sure on a street car this will be an issue, but im hoping with a drag car it will not.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

^ That's my car. At one point I was going to run the piping toward the drivers side, and all that it took was rotating the compressor outlet up ~15 degrees and welding on a 90. See mockup below...










I ended up going the route I did because I wanted to avoid the 90 out of the compressor, and with my throttle body on the drivers side it just made sense. That's with an 'S' cover housing, so a GT42 is a completely different beast, and sacrifices will have to be made. You won't have any issues with a coated downpipe and coating/shielding on the intake pipe. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

leebro61 said:


> ^ That's my car. At one point I was going to run the piping toward the drivers side, and all that it took was rotating the compressor outlet up ~15 degrees and welding on a 90. See mockup below...
> 
> 
> I ended up going the route I did because I wanted to avoid the 90 out of the compressor, and with my throttle body on the drivers side it just made sense. That's with an 'S' cover housing, so a GT42 is a completely different beast, and sacrifices will have to be made. You won't have any issues with a coated downpipe and coating/shielding on the intake pipe. :thumbup:


Looks awesome, I wish i could avoid sharp 90 bends, but the gt42 is a monster..

Edit, how is the oil return clearance on your setup, from the pics it looks like it would go right into #2 and 3 header pipes, 

They got the wastegates and dump tubes going now..





























I didnt notice before but it looks like there is no room for the oil return line in this pic. Im sure there is but it looks tight .



















Little notch in turbo housing for wastegate clearence


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

They may need to plumb the oil return first and then rotate the passenger side wastegate down and redo the dump tube. On my car I had a hydraulic shop bend and flare a 5/8" stainless line to come off the center section and then behind/past the manifold. Then I welded on a -10 bung and plumbed the rest with pushlock. Since the GT42 is so tall you should have plenty of room to do this. You might get some more clearance by clocking the center section slightly too if necessary.

Can't wait to see the rest of this come together, looking great so far :wave:


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## VWDugan (Mar 22, 2001)

oh man this is an insane build! 
In for updates!


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## ray32 (Apr 27, 2008)

great build:thumbup:


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

That beast is going to be Dangerous


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Ok, so I have emailed a couple of expert head porters in the US, I havent got anything to go on here. However CNC heads in the UK have some proven results with the 12V vr head. Thinking that i ran clear across the great state of Alabama, I might as well keep on running... lol

So Ric Wood claims to have gains with thier cnc vr6 program.

Hi 
we gain 18 % inlet and 23%exhaust flow
Cheers ric


Ric Wood 

Managing Director 


Looking at his website, he seems legit.. 
Well I imported the gear kits from the check, and the final drives from a german Ibiza, might as well get the best ports from the UK...

Hoping to work with ric on the heads...

Edit" I am still amazed on how small the world has become since E commerce. I used google translate to work with germans and make a deal to get the final drives to the US.. AWESOME 
DANK


http://www.ricwood.com/

http://www.cncheads.co.uk/

Props to the guy that posted the recommendation for these guys in an earlier post :thumbup::thumbup:


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

No worries, they are a racing tuner and their products are top notch.
Quality costs.
Steve


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## Cspence (Nov 23, 2008)

Watching this!!


Sent from my iPhone: Short but not meant to be abrupt!


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

scarey :heart:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

The car is close to being finished at the fab shop.
Last things on the list are:
throttle cable mounts and brackets
Coolant piping
Shifter locking brackets
Rear control arms

:beer:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Very nice...and completely crazy!!!


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## mattryan1.8t (Mar 12, 2011)

awesome, subscribed


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

updates??


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

Which City will this be terrorizing? 
:beer::beer:


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## bizybyker (May 25, 2005)

So is this going to be in the running for fastest VW to date? Sure looks like it would be.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I should be getting the car back early november. The fab guy came up with a cool idea how to lock the 2 shifters together, they are working on it this week, Should have some pics by the weekend..

Well, seems Im back to square one with the heads. I cant get a hold of ric wood in the UK. I tried emailing several times about shipping the work and havent heard anything back. I guess ill get a international phone card and try giving them a call. Same thing with Jarrod at SCCH .. The search continues.. 

The car is in colorado, goal is to start testing in summer of 2014, still many large hurdles to jump before that happens..


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## CarNut84GTi (Oct 2, 2002)

MK123GTi said:


> I should be getting the car back early november. The fab guy came up with a cool idea how to lock the 2 shifters together, they are working on it this week, Should have some pics by the weekend..
> 
> Well, seems Im back to square one with the heads. I cant get a hold of ric wood in the UK. I tried emailing several times about shipping the work and havent heard anything back. I guess ill get a international phone card and try giving them a call. Same thing with Jarrod at SCCH .. The search continues..
> 
> The car is in colorado, goal is to start testing in summer of 2014, still many large hurdles to jump before that happens..


You might want to check out our BVH heads. 
http://wrdusa.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?...wrdusa&Product_Code=010A342&Category_Code=wrd

We get well over 180 CFM on the intake side, sometimes up into the 190's (We won't ship the head out unless it's over 180) which is over an 18% gain from stock. We increase the exhaust side as well but that's not the real hold up on the 12V.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

shot of the shifter locking mechanism.. 










and getting some radiator modifications..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## ray32 (Apr 27, 2008)

Awsome fab work!:beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

Car is coming along very nicely. The fab work is astounding! :beer::thumbup::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

Can you explain more about the shifter locking mechanism? It almost looks like its locked to the point it would prevent the shafts from tilting.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

like this x2. will lock for awd and unlock for front or rear drive


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So thinking ahead on tucking in the slicks on the car with some custom flares. So, far I like this mk4 with the JDM flares, and also using using the allroad audi flares. 










I think these are the allroad flares











So far I havent seen any mk 3's with the all roads or the jdm's




















Anyone have any suggestions ideas???

Would be nice to find a set of these flares, but I dont think they are available anymore, and dont really look wide enough anyways..


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

If you can find those last flares it would look great.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I say go custom all metal flares :thumbup:


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## t16vtricks (Feb 6, 2006)

*Vr's nice*

VERY NICE BUILD WOULD LOVE TO COME SEE IT IN ACTION WHEN IT'S FINISHED KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK WITH THIS BUILD.opcorn:


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## gnavs (Jun 9, 2006)

MK123GTi said:


> Would be nice to find a set of these flares, but I dont think they are available anymore, and dont really look wide enough anyways..


To my knowledge these are essentially hen's teeth at this point.

I like that MK4 with the JDM flares personally but I'm not sure how that would look with the MK3 lines. I don't think it matters though, the flare style isn't exactly going to make or break this builds wow factor :laugh:


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

not as wide, but will help a little

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Golf-Jet...s=Make:Volkswagen&hash=item27d78dc523&vxp=mtr


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## vwmk2vr6s (Aug 19, 2007)

There is a set here locally (not mine)that might be forsale soon,There is a guy on here selling his kamei flares, 600.00 I believe is the asking price. I went through www.precisionmotorsports.com to get a set of fenders and rear flares made for my MK2 a few years back. :beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I ordered a set of the jdm's and a set of the ebay ones , I would like to do some kind of custom wide body. I dont know, not sure what to do yet. Would be nice to find some of those kamie ones tough.. Hen's teeth lol..

Short block spec's


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## raddo (Dec 22, 1999)

ABT wide body kit would work, and I know a guy that has one for sale. It not gonna be cheap but IM me if you are interested.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

video of the shifter 

Looks like the rear exhaust might have to be redone, appears that the flex coupling is right where I planned to have the shifter cables routed..


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## Rado.16vT (May 25, 2005)

MAD project:beer:
Those throttle bodies leak like hell on the axle bearings specially when you weld the top bracket but im sure you gonna do a leak test


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## planbmatt1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Sub! opcorn:


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## GTIYR87 (Nov 1, 2006)

This project needs more attention than it has been given, that's why I have put it in my signature for you. Awesome, just pure awesome.

:thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer:


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> video of the shifter
> 
> Looks like the rear exhaust might have to be redone, appears that the flex coupling is right where I planned to have the shifter cables routed..


Few local drag guys have problems with this shifter and 3rd gear engaging. I hope you wont get same glitches
Your project is very brave.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the kind words everyone..

This is truly an ambitious project for me. I have nightmares about the shifters. They are the key to this thing actually working. Shifting under wide open throttle from second to 3rd and one motor stays in second would really suck ass.. I plan to use the clutch for shifting at first maybe even always. I understand that this is going to be a very tough build, I hope that I have the patience to see it through to the finish. The real challenge starts now. Its back in my hands and its up to me to make it happen.. 


Well on a positive note, after the weigh in I am not in bad shape at all
As it sits 2470 lbs This is better than I expected. I was hoping after all said and done to be under 3400, Now it looks like I can stay under 3000 lbs

2470 with a rear bare block and head, no rear axles, no front turbo or manifold. so it will be considerably heavier when the rest of the parts are added..

there is still plenty of weight to shave off. I got a carbon hood and hatch, still has power windows in the doors and a power sunroof.
I weigh 215 so If I can get the car to 3000 lbs car and driver, I will be super happy with that. 

Body styling I think I like the shaved stock looking front bumper with the black stock abs flares. The car will be on M&H 24.5 x 8.5 x 15 tires. shouldn't be too bad to tuck those.. 
With the gear kit I have, running a 26 inch tire would be out of my league for now anyways.. 
In a perfect world getting both motors to make 800 hp, shift and launch on point on 26's then trap close to 200 mph.. Lol wishful thinking. 

Getting this thing to run and pass tech to test it is my goal for now..

:beer::beer:

edit. that 12 year old ninja hood is going straight in the dumpster..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Rado.16vT said:


> MAD project:beer:
> Those throttle bodies leak like hell on the axle bearings specially when you weld the top bracket but im sure you gonna do a leak test


Thanks for the heads up, Been doing some research on that, looks like Ill be making some custom bronze bushings to replace the skateboard bearings in the BBK's. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

vr-vagman said:


> Few local drag guys have problems with this shifter and 3rd gear engaging. I hope you wont get same glitches
> Your project is very brave.


Care to share what kind of trouble they are having? and what is being done to help solve the problems??

thanks


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Starting to think that kevin black is a myth


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

You do know it is WCF this weekend right? Essentially the last race of the season. He is late to respond, but when he does, his attention to detail and customer service is appreciated by the customer :thumbup:


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## AceWaters (Sep 2, 2008)

I can confirm he does exist in the flesh. Saw him at MIR yesterday, looked like he had been awake for 48hrs. Frustrating (I know from experience) but just be persistent. He will come through for you. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> Care to share what kind of trouble they are having? and what is being done to help solve the problems??
> 
> thanks


One of the guys is a good friend of mine with a drag 1.8T 4Mo car. About 700-720 awhp. He made 2-3 attempts to assemble/reassemble the gearbox with the SQS kit (4 speeds) He always had problems with engaging 3rd gear, after 2-3 runs only, no matter whether with seq shifter or standard H-pattern. Finally after many unsuccessfull engaging attempts he always got bended engaging fork and worn dogs. At the end he sent the whole box for full revision and assembly at SQS. With the "new" box he had just a few free of problems starts. When he uses his spare standard 5 speed box everything is always OK - 9.7s 250km/h. About the other guys I'm not aware of their problems with SQS but they do complain too. I used to think it was always a mechanic's fault but when they had the same problem with the "OEM"asembled box.... I just don't know what to think. Another guy here ( on VWvortex forum) with 3.6VR6 drag Golf2 project had mentioned once he had to modify something in his SQS to get it work properly.


----------



## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

MK123GTi said:


> Starting to think that kevin black is a myth


What do you need, i'm friends with Kevin...


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## screwloose45 (Dec 9, 2008)

Insane build. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

vr-vagman said:


> One of the guys is a good friend of mine with a drag 1.8T 4Mo car. About 700-720 awhp. He made 2-3 attempts to assemble/reassemble the gearbox with the SQS kit (4 speeds) He always had problems with engaging 3rd gear, after 2-3 runs only, no matter whether with seq shifter or standard H-pattern. Finally after many unsuccessfull engaging attempts he always got bended engaging fork and worn dogs. At the end he sent the whole box for full revision and assembly at SQS. With the "new" box he had just a few free of problems starts. When he uses his spare standard 5 speed box everything is always OK - 9.7s 250km/h. About the other guys I'm not aware of their problems with SQS but they do complain too. I used to think it was always a mechanic's fault but when they had the same problem with the "OEM"asembled box.... I just don't know what to think. Another guy here ( on VWvortex forum) with 3.6VR6 drag Golf2 project had mentioned once he had to modify something in his SQS to get it work properly.


Thanks for the reply.. 

Well the saga continues, making a fast vw that shifts has been our challenge for all time.. I had a sqs 6 peed in there before, it shifted great 1-4 if I was lucky i would get 5th gear and get my 10.9 second run.. twice I rammed it into 5th and got third.. over reved the motor jumped timming chain and popped the valves..  . all of my failures with this crap has only made me more determined... I put this **** up for 4 yrs and focused on other ventures. and I now have a new recharge of vw passion.. 

sqs has a tech page on the shifting doo hickies strechingout 14mm good 15mm bad.. which im thinking is what they say is causing trouble with their gear kits. 

FFE has a gear kit for the 02m's that is supposed to be great, but it is desighned for the 1.8t and didnt give me the mph i was looking for..

the people you speak of shifting the sqs box with troubles.. they are running the 1.8 motor, I assume with that motor they are shifting at well above 9k. Im no expert but shifting at super high rpms has a higher failure rate... I only plan to rev to 7k maxxxxxxx... Hoping this will make the difference for me.. 

anyway, I am in way to far to back out now. it will happen 


determined 
:thumbup:


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

We've had very good luck with 02a/j 4 speed dog box. Need to decide goals and rev limit to determine ring and pinion.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

bonesaw said:


> We've had very good luck with 02a/j 4 speed dog box. Need to decide goals and rev limit to determine ring and pinion.



awesome. 

not sure what u mean, but the mph goals and rev limit are mentioned on page 1.. sqs boxes are already built. and ready to go for this car.. ratios are on page 1. bill shimmel did the build for the gear boxes.. hopefully its a go

http://www.sqsracing.com/files/fs_files/contentpages/23/problematics-of-02m-02q-gearboxes_132.pdf[/


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## Gromel (May 12, 2012)

What about Quaife, dont they make a dog box?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Taped up the Jdm flares to see how they look. Not sure exactly how Im going to do it, but these will defiantly tuck the tires im running. would take a decent amount of custom work to make them look ok


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

so is the car all done at the fab shop?


car looks amazing tons of hard work in that thing and quite a bit more to go.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Yea, that is going to look nice.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys

After some thought, I think Im going to order another set of flares. Looks like if I cut and paste 2 sets together it will give me a more complete look on the flares.. In the end I want the have the car with black textured trim in the flares, skirts, and bumpers


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

Please, would you share where do you get these flares from?
Thanks!


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## mattryan1.8t (Mar 12, 2011)

flares are looking pretty B.A. opcorn:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

very nice


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

WOW . Amazing.


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

All this big money/effort in the car and you are going to install those hideous oblong Jap arches? :facepalm: Go Kamei, ABT, Rieger, A59 style, etc. or :banghead:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

GTi2OV said:


> All this big money/effort in the car and you are going to install those hideous oblong Jap arches? :facepalm: Go Kamei, ABT, Rieger, A59 style, etc. or :banghead:



I would love too, got a link to where I could find some? 
Sell me yours?

Options are still open on the flares, I just tapped them up to see if I could make them work, They defiantly are going to need custom fiberglass work to make them fit.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

What about making your own flares? Check out what's going on here about halfway down the page


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2013)

After breaking more than a few bits drilling 6 O2s its done. MY son was inspecting the port work lol


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## planbmatt1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Start em young:beer:


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## mattryan1.8t (Mar 12, 2011)

the next thing you need to do is install a car seat


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## joeydee (Jul 14, 2012)

I bet he already can drive stick


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

that manifold looks awesome 
would look alot better at my shop on the shelf..

Update on the car..

Just got the DSS custom axles and hubs


shortblocks from IE 
Awesome ported heads from WRD
Lugtronic ECU's and flying lead harnessesses
custom backspace weld drag wheels
fuel system

all on the way for early JAN 2014

I am hoping to get 2 weeks off to work on the car in late january 

Im a big Primus fan
calling the car 
"Defy the laws of tradition"

Was tossing aroung a different color for the car..
However getto green got me this far so that is what it will stay...


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## BySeaByLand (Aug 30, 2010)

:thumbup: on the primus! You could always refer to her as green naugahyde. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Sweet, In for the rest.


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## 92jetta9a (Apr 3, 2007)

*Head Work?*



MK123GTi said:


> Ok, so I have emailed a couple of expert head porters in the US, I havent got anything to go on here. However CNC heads in the UK have some proven results with the 12V vr head. Thinking that i ran clear across the great state of Alabama, I might as well keep on running... lol
> 
> So Ric Wood claims to have gains with thier cnc vr6 program.
> 
> ...



Any updates on this? Just curious since they don't list any information on the 12V head on their website. 

Great project! :thumbup:


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## pDUBc (Dec 26, 2008)

amazing work:thumbup: cant wait to see it done


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## xtremevdub (Jun 26, 2004)

opcorn:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

The head work is being done by http://www.wrdusa.com/

Just got some teaser pics from them. 


I am pressing everyone to have everything ready and delivered by the end of Jan. I have 2 weeks set aside in Feb to turn some serious wrenches.. I am super excited. It has been a minuet since I have busted up some knuckes.. I hope I can remember how to assemble a 12v.. I might have to bust out the old chiltons :laugh:

WELDON 2345, ID 2000, CM 850 TD.. all on the way

Anyone got a hookup on some size 10 fuel rails, I emailed a few guys but nothing locked in yet..


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Jesus. This build is ridiculous. Lemme get a seed from that money tree haha 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> . I might have to bust out the old chiltons :laugh:


Shirley, you can't be serious.


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## CarNut84GTi (Oct 2, 2002)

MK123GTi said:


> The head work is being done by http://www.wrdusa.com/
> 
> Just got the teaser pic from them.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> Walbro 2345QUOTE]
> 
> I am betting you meant to say a Weldon 2345. :beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Yea, duh I meant weldon 2345

I stumbled of the larger fuel rails from a guy on facebook :thumbup:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.130318737032713.22526.130313090366611&type=1


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

First off, what a amazing part list and job well done so far.
The Migfab fuel rail bolts on perfect. Very nice piece!
I really like your FX850 clutch choice. Been holding up great for me.


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## AKrett (Dec 18, 2001)

The white MK4 is my car. Feel free to message me with any questions regarding the flares.


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

Can you post pics of said flares looking for some to fit my Cabrio love kamei flares but ppl want close to $600 for them.

Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk


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## NadaGTI (Feb 27, 2012)

In


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

I was down at IE yesterday. Looked like Jake was making good progress on your short blocks. :thumbup:


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## vw-only (Feb 13, 2010)

Your -10 fuel rail is on the way


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## deadheadsforvw (Aug 16, 2008)

Wow! Sick build man can't wait to see it running


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

updates?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I got the blocks and heads back. IE and WRD both did some awesome work.. :thumbup:

Well now looking at the cam specs and the flow bench specs, looks to me like I should be using a higher lift cam to take full advantage of the porting job. Especially on the intake side. The TT cam is only a .450 lift. I am not a FI expert but If I was building a NA car I would want to max out the flow of the ports with a .550 lift on the intake and a .500 lift on the exhaust side. 

I could have web make some custom grinds.

What do you guys think??
Let it ride with the TT 288's?
Anyone know what the max cam lift on the 12v's with out running into piston clearance issues?

I am about to set the valve lash with the TT cams, its a PITA.

Also I wish I would have went with the GTX4202 turbo instead of the GTX 4294. Car will be racing at 5800FT elevation. Turbo's are still brand new might look into exchanging them..

I could just be nit picking about this stuff.. Real world I probably wont ever be able to run it full blast on the track, but it would be cool to have a 2000 HP gti...

Opinions??


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## GRN6IX (Jan 2, 2003)

MK123GTi said:


> but it would be cool to have a 2000 HP gti...
> 
> Opinions??


Yes. yes it would, opinion complete :thumbup:


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

GRN6IX said:


> Yes. yes it would, opinion complete :thumbup:


X2 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

and itd be just a bit better than the average cool


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

In the fi set up for the cans you don't want a ton of over lap or your putting boost out the exhaust I just had Colin at techtonic custom grind a can fir my aba build I'm pushing the engine to the limit I went w org a 288 with the lobe center diffrebt to keep boost in the cylinders if you call techtonics Colin can talk it over and vme up with something for you my 1 off cam cost me 250 is all, 

As for the 2000hp set up work and work to get that to the ground it will be awesome

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

As said earlier you are pushing the boundaries of normal folk and ideas are more speculation.
Normal extremes for the cams seem to be 288 but not sure on head room to go further.
Valve travel is normally kept OEM but longer stroke could be an option especially if the piston crowns can be worked whilst lowering some of the compression as a bonus, but I seem to remember that there are limits to lobe size on the cams as they will hit the block if too big.
Your turbo choice will be giving you some early boost and maybe you are right going for a different AR to push the revs up the dial some. A few peeps run the GT45 with good results, but only on good setups as your gambling with just where she is going to start boosting, but if your running high rpms the sky is the limit.
Steve


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well I think Ill stick to the origonal plan for 800 hp. The only way the car could use more power is if it hooks right and goes straight down the track. In the future I could always rework the motor / turbo setups. Funny car cage, and 26 x 10 tires if it ever gets to that point, but thats a BIG if...

Got some pics from IE of the block builds..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> First off, what a amazing part list and job well done so far.
> The Migfab fuel rail bolts on perfect. Very nice piece!
> I really like your FX850 clutch choice. Been holding up great for me.


Thanks, I have been just reading what has been working for everyone else, and trying to pick parts that give me the best chance for sucess.



cant get a password said:


> Can you post pics of said flares looking for some to fit my Cabrio love kamei flares but ppl want close to $600 for them.
> 
> Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk


I just got some genaric flares from JDM not sure If Im going to use them or not



vw-only said:


> Your -10 fuel rail is on the way


Got them, They are huge.. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

sTT eV6 said:


> As said earlier you are pushing the boundaries of normal folk and ideas are more speculation.
> Normal extremes for the cams seem to be 288 but not sure on head room to go further.
> Valve travel is normally kept OEM but longer stroke could be an option especially if the piston crowns can be worked whilst lowering some of the compression as a bonus, but I seem to remember that there are limits to lobe size on the cams as they will hit the block if too big.
> Your turbo choice will be giving you some early boost and maybe you are right going for a different AR to push the revs up the dial some. A few peeps run the GT45 with good results, but only on good setups as your gambling with just where she is going to start boosting, but if your running high rpms the sky is the limit.
> Steve


Not sure I under stand about cams hitting the block. The lifter bore pockets will need to be clearenced if the cam lobes are too tall, if that is what you mean. I wouldnt want to change the durration or overlap, just add a little more lift to the 288's... 
Ill pick up some play dough this week and check what the piston valve clearance is when I get the lifters fron TT,,


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

Congrats man!
I like what I see in your thread. Just don't stop the good work! 
BTW my friend disassembled his SQS gearbox. The gear teeth and dogs showed severe wear. The car is about 730hp @wheels 1.8T 4x4. For the new season he switched back to OEM 5 speed gearbox. The SQS is ditched as well as 5-6000 Euro :-(
Hope you'll have better luck.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

vr-vagman said:


> Congrats man!
> I like what I see in your thread. Just don't stop the good work!
> BTW my friend disassembled his SQS gearbox. The gear teeth and dogs showed severe wear. The car is about 730hp @wheels 1.8T 4x4. For the new season he switched back to OEM 5 speed gearbox. The SQS is ditched as well as 5-6000 Euro :-(
> Hope you'll have better luck.


Thanks, Im hoping to have better luck with gear boxes. we will see this summer I hope. Splitting the load between the 2 and a 7k redline might make the difference..


Just made some measurements for the shifter cables. pic is for future reference











I talked with colin at TT, getting any more lift out of a 12v head is way more work than its worth. Ill be sticking with the 288 solid cams..


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

MK123GTi said:


> I talked with colin at TT, getting any more lift out of a 12v head is way more work than its worth. Ill be sticking with the 288 solid cams..


Ive been running the Hydro lifter 288's for a few years now. It took some tweaking but car makes great power on the stock port/stock valve head. You shouldn't have much problems reaching your power goals with that setup. I have some CAT 308's and solid lifter parts but just havent put the time into getting them working.

:thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Ive been running the Hydro lifter 288's for a few years now. It took some tweaking but car makes great power on the stock port/stock valve head. You shouldn't have much problems reaching your power goals with that setup. I have some CAT 308's and solid lifter parts but just havent put the time into getting them working.
> 
> :thumbup:


Cool. I think it will be just fine the o tap that little bit is a lit of work, Custom size valves, machiened spring buckets exc...

I started taking measurements for the valve shims, Should have them adjusted and engines assembled by mid march..


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## CarNut84GTi (Oct 2, 2002)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Nice and shinny.
Have you done anything with the exhaust seats?
I've gone for Berrylium inserts on my new head setup to help the valves cool.
Steve


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## 410CrewDubber (Oct 5, 2010)

Wow this thing is ****ing nuts :thumbup:


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## deeeGLI (Mar 1, 2006)

I had to come check this thread out...

WOW....! 
Great work....


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Hey, thanks for the positive vibes. So far on this project, It has just been a dream, a plan, and a checkbook. I realy havent done anything. but now I have most of the pieces of the puzzle to begin my job. Its time to put it all together and make this thing work. Time to put up or shut up... This car / contraption has been built and running 8's for quite some time now in my sleep... I just got the lugtronic gear on time and ready to wire up, thanks KB perfect timing.... Just waiting on the tiny lash caps to slap in the cams and build the motors . 

Many thanks to the people that have gone above and beyond so far.JDL, Drive shaft shop, Fore, Weldon, custom 02m brackets (dezego) IE,TT, SP,MIG FAB, WRD, SQS, AAron (Hanksville), ID, hmmm many more..


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Shawn Dezego is the man!! :thumbup::thumbup:

Also got my mount brackets and custom AXLES from him


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

:beer: This project deserves the real accolades!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Got the subframes prepped for the new rear o2m mount location, and chopped off some excess metal, I left the swaybar mount for the rear engine, just in case. Might me fun to toss one in and adjust the camber for a drift session...










Great ebay UK find. Brand new Hella tail lights for a 20 year old car.. :thumbup:










The harbor freight bearing tool worked great for replacing the bearings and hubs..





































































































I discovered a little bonus for me today, The donnar car for the extra parts was a 97 and had the larger 228mm brakes, I didnt know there was a difference. So I got the larger brakes up front. I had weld make some custom 6 inch back spacing wheels for the front so I could run a larger 25mm spacer to clear the brakes, I moved the origonal 5 inch back spaced wheels and smaller brakes to the rear, seems to fit good. 
Everything has been completly disassembled cleaned and is starting to go back together. New ball joints, tierods, bushings, bearings, hubs, all done today. Going to get the motors together over the weekend.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I would think on a high dollar ported head the valve seats would be flush with the ports.. :screwy: I guess I cant complain, WRD was the only company I could find that was even willing to do the job..

Seems the garage Gnome ran off with my intermediate shaft... I spent an hour looking for it. then I broke down and ordered one of ebay for $35.. As soon as it gets here the gnomes will put it right back where I left it...


----------



## xtremevdub (Jun 26, 2004)

First I gotta say, Holy Sh!t 

And then ask you, How come no external oil coolers? Dont tell me you dont think you are ever wanna play outside of the track with that monster?


----------



## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

why would I need an external oil cooler? I think this car is going to have more knick knacks than my grandmas house as is.. Anything off track would be low boost levels.. Rube Goldberg would be proud :thumbup:


----------



## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

As usual fantastic work! The only thing I wouldn't do is to use a nice shiny pulley on the crankshaft instead of real damper. Also, although your cyl and valve work looks really done by pros, I'm a bit scared to see the valve seats actually having contact. What concerns me is the temperature difference in that point. I'm not speaking of some personal experience, just thoughts. In my engine I was about to have the same seat contact but finally decided to stay with lower exhaust diameter valve/seat just to keep that alu bridge between the seats.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

think the sc guys have no issues with non damp crank pulleys 

had some unexpected luck routing my post heater core hose through the oe oil heat exchanger (heat off), instead of the pinholes it's fed with stock, stays right with the water temp now... searching seems that the water pump generates ~30psi red line, resulting in higher momentary boiling point as well as increased velocity/volume water scrubbing help cool. staying away from elec water pumps and bypassing the heater core flow with just a hose wo a restrictor, wasting all that flow.

i like the bling of oil cooler cost, weight, leaks, risk of teflon tape getting in my post filter cam bearing journals, etc but because science project

maybe i'll make a thread about it once it's above freezing, hijack over


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

If an obvious thing like that was missed on the cylinder head, I'd hate to see what solid lifter parts you have in there. Email me Bruce.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well I did the cam lifter install. I got the lifters and shims from Collin at TT. I got the valve lash pretty close to start, I will have to re set the shims after the motors get broke in. Im going to go through the ports on both heads to see just how bad they are. I might disassemble them and smooth them out. I dont know.. I am going to pull it apart and check the valve piston clearence, as I have been reading about people having clearance issues with the mk4 gaskets and the 288 cams. 


This is what sold me on the Gruven crank pulley.

Lose the boat anchor of the Audi and VW VR6 steel crank pulley with this 500 gram lightweight billet aluminum version. It is the lightest crank pulley out there and will allow the engine to spool up faster while preventing inertial losses caused by the overweight OEM pulley. It has been proven by countless hours of track abuse in normally aspirated, turbocharged, and supercharged VR6 engines (WILL NOT VOID SUPERCHARGER WARRANTIES!). Don’t believe the hype about more expensive, heavier, dampened pulleys. Ours HAS BEEN TESTED THOROUGHLY ON TRACK at RPM’s far exceeding redline. The VR6 motors are INTERNALLY BALANCEDand do not require expensive, heavy dampened crank pulleys. The factory pulley comes with a thin layer of rubber because it is cheaper to manufacture, and reduces very little vibration at idle inside the car. There is no benefit to it off idle. You Simply Will Not Ever Go Back to a Heavy Crank Pulley After Installing This One! .


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## xtremevdub (Jun 26, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> This is what sold me on the Gruven crank pulley.
> 
> Lose the boat anchor of the Audi and VW VR6 steel crank pulley with this 500 gram lightweight billet aluminum version. It is the lightest crank pulley out there and will allow the engine to spool up faster while preventing inertial losses caused by the overweight OEM pulley. It has been proven by countless hours of track abuse in normally aspirated, turbocharged, and supercharged VR6 engines (WILL NOT VOID SUPERCHARGER WARRANTIES!). Don’t believe the hype about more expensive, heavier, dampened pulleys. Ours HAS BEEN TESTED THOROUGHLY ON TRACK at RPM’s far exceeding redline. The VR6 motors are INTERNALLY BALANCEDand do not require expensive, heavy dampened crank pulleys. The factory pulley comes with a thin layer of rubber because it is cheaper to manufacture, and reduces very little vibration at idle inside the car. There is no benefit to it off idle. You Simply Will Not Ever Go Back to a Heavy Crank Pulley After Installing This One! .


Sounds legit IF the VR motors are in fact INTERNALLY BALANCED. But all the 4 bangers arent and run like crap with that type of pulley which Gruven makes for them as well. :sly: 
plus on the 4 cyl the intermediate shaft is not even balanced either.. I wonder if the VR6 is..


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Vr6 is internally balanced.


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## xtremevdub (Jun 26, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> Vr6 is internally balanced.


Carry on then. :thumbup:


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> Well I did the cam lifter install. I got the lifters and shims from Collin at TT. I got the valve lash pretty close to start, I will have to re set the shims after the motors get broke in. Im going to go through the ports on both heads to see just how bad they are. I might disassemble them and smooth them out. I dont know.. I am going to pull it apart and check the valve piston clearence, as I have been reading about people having clearance issues with the mk4 gaskets and the 288 cams.
> 
> 
> This is what sold me on the Gruven crank pulley.
> ...


I'm sorry to say that but the cited words have nothing to do with the tech. matter behind the crank dampers. Their purpose is far away from mentioned facts and have nothing in common with engine vibrations, internal balance or idle quality. These are just sales BS. Sorry again. I would read the tech info on ATI or Fluidampr and ask engineers.
Also you'll probably destroy the alu FWs pretty soon. I'd install steel ones from the beginning.

BTW here is what my friend got 3 times (on his 1.8T [email protected]) for a single drag season until he installed 350USD Fluidamp:
  
Also destroyed 3 oil pump chain gears (on the crank) and the chains. The chains looked hard as a metal rod. The cyl block's middle crank main bearing beds were always widened.
Yes, the 12V VR cranks are solid but at real high power/cost engine I wouldn't test my luck. Keep in mind the 4- banger crankshaft is much shorter. I see you don't save money when you build your car. Just think a bit....


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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

Looking great! :beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

If the shiny pully is going to cause trouble then I can simply put on the stock one in about 2 minuets. Since we are comparing the VR6 engine to 4 cylinder ones. I have a ministock car with a ABA block and it doesent even have a damper at all. Electric water pump and thats it. It runs 100 straight wide open 3rd gear pulls to 7K + rpms with no issues. I dont know anything about the 10k reving 20v motors. My vw experience stops at 1995 and 7k. 

So your friend destroyed his 1.8t motor 3 times, then installed the fluid damper and now its fine???
Also you say I should lose the aluminum Clutchmaster flywheels and install Steel ones??

EDIT
I checked out the USP dyno testing of the fluid dampers, I like what I see. Ill more than likely switch to the fluid dampers, before I get to the dyno. :thumbup:


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

> Yes, the 12V VR cranks are solid but at real high power/cost engine I wouldn't test my luck. Keep in mind the 4- banger crankshaft is much shorter. I see you don't save money when you build your car. Just think a bit....


I have to agree. I have broken a crank in my fully balanced 2.0l 16V Turbo using an Aluminum crank pulley. 
I then switched to the fluid amper and have run it to 9krpm for 4 seasons without issues so far.
2014 season begins next week.
:beer::beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well fluid dampers it is then, thanks for the heads up.

If I had to guess, Looks as if the WRD custom head has a single angle valve job to go along with the steps on the valve seats... :thumbup::thumbup:











Monster fuel ralis


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So I tore down the motor today to measure the valve clearance. Seemed no matter what I did the cams were off 1/2 tooth. The crank and inter shaft marks were dead on the money, still the cams would wind up advanced or retarded 1/2 tooth. After a couple hours tooling around with that. I bumped the inter gear off a tooth, and viola its dead on. Rotating the motor around to TDC on the crank mark and the cam aligning tool slides in perfect. Anyone have an idea on this. Everywhere I have read says that if the cams are off a 1/2 tooth then the inter gear is off a tooth. In my case I purposefully moved the inter gear off a tooth and the cam/ crank timing is dead on the money. The only thing I can think of is the block and the head being milled along with the thinner mk4 head gasket caused the retard in the timing. 
Any thoughts on this?

Valve clearance was about .045 " with the cams retarded 1/2 tooth and .090"with the timing dead on. I think Im in the clear with the valves..

While I was doing that I noticed that the IE built block has a hole in it. Where the bolt goes in the top of the bell housing, someone in the past used the longer bolt and blew it through the block in to the coolant passage. I am sure glad I noticed this now.. Would have sucked to leak coolant all into the twin discs and thinking its the t-stat housing leaking when its a hole in the block.. I going to use a 12 x 1.75 set screw to plug up the hole, then use a shorter bell housing bolt..


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

> While I was doing that I noticed that the IE built block has a hole in it. Where the bolt goes in the top of the bell housing, someone in the past used the longer bolt and blew it through the block in to the coolant passage. I am sure glad I noticed this now.. Would have sucked to leak coolant all into the twin discs and thinking its the t-stat housing leaking when its a hole in the block.. I going to use a 12 x 1.75 set screw to plug up the hole, then use a shorter bell housing bolt..


Holy **** that would suck trying to find a leak after instillation.
After all the machine work what can be done to save this block?

Your build is going to be one fast mother F*(ker. 
:thumbup:

I love the Green color, Maybe you should put Lucky on it. Lucky charms guy. it would make a great theme for a drag car
and it might bring you luck. You may need it.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Great update and always nice to see shinny parts.
With the timing, I've read that getting the slack of the chain at the bulkhead side helps with getting the timing right.
Steve


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## .T.o.n.y. (Apr 3, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

had the same hole in my block from someone using a longer bolt. I did what you plan on doing. I just cut off the end of a bolt and cut a screwdriver slot into it. I applied some rtv inside the hole and screwed it in. Mine has not leaked at all.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

This is very common... unfortunately...

I would either JB weld or Loctite a Grub screw in there *OR* just use a gob of a good sealant on the Bell Housing bolt. Something like the Permatex Aviation Sealant (stuff is the absolute biz).

The latter would probably be my first choice providing there is no crack in the thread hole. This way you don't have to worry about bottoming out bolts to the grub screw etc. Many cars actually have bolt holes that are not blind and enter into coolant passages.


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

sdezego said:


> This is very common... unfortunately...
> 
> I would either JB weld or Loctite a Grub screw in there *OR* just use a gob of a good sealant on the Bell Housing bolt. Something like the Permatex Aviation Sealant (stuff is the absolute biz).
> 
> The latter would probably be my first choice providing there is no crack in the thread hole. This way you don't have to worry about bottoming out bolts to the grub screw etc. Many cars actually have bolt holes that are not blind and enter into coolant passages.


This happened on my block as well. I just applied some RTV to my bell housing bolt and it is leak free. I do like the idea of a set screw with some RTV on it though. :thumbup:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

DarkSideGTI said:


> This happened on my block as well. I just applied some RTV to my bell housing bolt and it is leak free. I do like the idea of a set screw with some RTV on it though. :thumbup:


x2 I've seen this problem on a few cars I've worked on, they were leak free before and after, last time I used thread sealant.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I should have the allon set screws this week to get the hole fixed.. :thumbup:

Some shots of the rear tie rods, a little overkill, so just right..


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Nice on the tie rod. I was thinking on running a front k in 4mo setup and that answers the steering delete. Did you weld a tube into the control arm to take the squash of the link?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

REPOMAN said:


> I love the Green color, Maybe you should put Lucky on it. Lucky charms guy. it would make a great theme for a drag car
> and it might bring you luck. You may need it.



Thanks man, looks as though someone has already captured that theme quite well.











Iwill be sticking with green and black trim. Nothing too fancy


Fix for the hole in the block, Allen set screw and some rtv, Ill use a shorter bell housing bolt.





















Brand new weld racing wheels wobbling like my old 10 speed. I sent them back, lucky I cought It before I mounted tires on them, Summit is sending me new ones. Weld says they should be max .040 these are .055 out of round. Another 3 week wait for new ones. :screwy:


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> Thanks man, looks as though someone has already captured that theme quite well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had good intension when I suggested a theme. 

Man that thing is horrible. 

Subtle Green and black looks great.


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

dumb questions, but what was the wheel mounted to when you spun it with the dial indicator? and you did run the indicator on the surface of whatever it was mounted to, right?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

wheel was on the spindle with a cv joint installed to tighten up the bearing, the dial indicator was on the ground, Might not me an exact measurement, but just eyeballing it you can tell they are out of round. My 10 year old welds spin true doing the same thing. I explained this to weld racing, they agreed they were out of round and said to return them for new ones. So I did..

I tried to dead lift the 02m on the block, its a little heavier than the o2a. With the twin disc and the SQS input shaft, I thought I should rig up a Sweet tranny jack. A wheel dolly, speaker box and a atv jack worked well..


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Nice. Did you get your Crank Bolt Torqued? ...I mean bolts (since you have 2 of everything  ). 

If not I made a nice Flywheel lock for 02m's and can lend it your way.



















Shawn


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thats a cool tool you got there, I havent torqued them down yet, Im waiting on the fluid dampers, By then Ill have the wheels on the ground to tighten them


So I have been thinking air shifter, I ordered a couple air cylinders to play with see if I can make something work..

Something like this to shift both motors with a paddle..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Does anyone have a oil feed restrictor size sugestion for the GTX4294R turbo? 
I ordered the 1.5mm ones, So I can drill them out to the proper size if needed. 
After some reading, I guess Ill have to hook up a pressure guage to dial it in to the 40-45 psi range..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Car has officially been converted to 02m dog gearboxes. 




























Alternator deleted front Ps pump deleted rear.





























wishfull thinking




























going to have to redo one of the dump tubes,


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Doesnt look like it will be too hard to rig up an air shifter, Got this cylinder new off ebay for $20 :thumbup:










Got started on the brake and clutch plumbing, USP motorsports hooked me up with some Green brake hose :thumbup:


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## xtremevdub (Jun 26, 2004)

Wow impressive work!!!! and nice crank pulleys!!!


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Like alot of others in here, i feel i dont need to write a comment on this build. Just sitting down to enjoy your work and progress is rewarding enought :wave:
Best parts of everything is a show of how its should be done 

Good luck !


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## .T.o.n.y. (Apr 3, 2003)

So awesome i pray to see this build finish!


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

Coming along nicely. :thumbup:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

the dollars spent on this build, wow.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Firewalls supplies


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

Is that thing gonna pass tech if you have the fuel cells right next to the driver?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Those are for Ice water.. Fuel cells are in the very back 



So I was thinking about a launch sequence. 

I have the clutchmasters clutch flow control valves installed in the lines. I might try a few of line lock selonoids on the clutch lines to dump the clutches and front brake on launch. Rigging up a 2 stage button on the left side steering wheel.

Goes like this:

Push button once activates the 2 step to build boost
roll into staging lights
push clutches in and pull front hand brake
push button again activates line lock on the clutches and line lock on front brakes wile still holding 2 step on
green light drops
Push button 3rd time releases clutches, front brake, and 2 step = car launch



Thoughts?


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## Feola86 (Sep 28, 2013)

What kind of power are you expecting out of each engine?


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

MK123GTi said:


> Those are for Ice water.. Fuel cells are in the very back



Ahh, that makes more sense! now that you say that, I see the small tanks in the back.. :laugh:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Feola86 said:


> What kind of power are you expecting out of each engine?


178


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## Feola86 (Sep 28, 2013)

MK123GTi said:


> 178


We have a smart guy over here haha. I guess I will just have to wait and see.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Just kidding, The HP goals are in post #1. 
Looking for 800 each. Dont know if it will ever see that much boost on the track, but the dyno goal is 1600 awd hp..


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## Vee-DubbVR6 (Jul 31, 2007)

MK123GTi said:


> 178


:laugh:


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## Cspence (Nov 23, 2008)

MK123GTi said:


> Just kidding, The HP goals are in post #1.
> Looking for 800 each. Dont know if it will ever see that much boost on the track, but the dyno goal is 1600 awd hp..


Lmao, I love it!


Sent from my iPhone: Short but not meant to be abrupt!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

marking some pics of some diy fender flares. These are on a mustang, but I like how these look. I might try to do something similar


















3.5" tire to fender, 2" tire clearence, 1.5" flare angle.


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

ever thought about going this route?






not sure if there are any photos of the rear...but very ralley golf/e30 m3 style...fitting for this body style

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4291629-Build-RWD-Jetta-PIC-HEAVY/page18

*
EDIT:*
here is another good wide body car, that is kinda "square" the way the did the LaSupra is pretty sweet!

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/12/lasupra-build-bodywork/#chapter-the-build-continues


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

That looks cool, thanks for posting the ideas. 
I want to keep it looking more like a traditional GTi, Green, with black trim flares skirts and bumpers. Ar first glance it still looks like a street car.


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

theres a picture of a black gti running around with ralleye/m3 style flares and a wing on the hatch. i dont have the pic but it would give you a good idea if you do change your mind


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## kevilay (Oct 5, 2013)

cant wait for updates!


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## stntman (Sep 19, 2002)

i am not sure if it has been gone over or not but you mentioned wanting to be able tto drive the car with either rear or front engine seperately as well as both together.

with the throttle bodies both using the same cable if you drive with just the front or rear engine then the other will rev up just the same as the one being driven with. are you planning on having two different ignition switches and justt not running the one engine?


just a thought as i drool over tthis thing


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

stntman said:


> i am not sure if it has been gone over or not but you mentioned wanting to be able tto drive the car with either rear or front engine seperately as well as both together.
> 
> with the throttle bodies both using the same cable if you drive with just the front or rear engine then the other will rev up just the same as the one being driven with. are you planning on having two different ignition switches and justt not running the one engine?
> 
> ...


Yep, 2 separate ignition switch panels . The engine not in use will be off and in neutral. After front burnout, kill the front motor and start the rear one and light them up. I cant wait to see the reactions when people see this done for the first time. :screwy:

A little update. 
Car has working brakes and clutches. Line locks are installed and functional (I think), Might have to go a larger bore on the clutch masters but wont know for sue till I can crank the motors to see if the clutch fully dis engages.. 
Fuel, and intercooler lines are plumbed. Hoping to move on to electrical in a week or so. Time is limited now, but I make it a point to do something to the car every week.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

EBC yellow pads are 2 thick to run in the rear, not sure what is going on with that but duralast pads are going in the rear till I can figure out what the deal is. Maybe the stock rotors are thinner, not sure, But it make sense that if I wanted to run high performance pads I should be able to run heavy duty rotors as well. Wierd


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## Rallye 1.8T (Feb 16, 2005)

Those thicker could be for 256mm brakes almost same but not same


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well, niether me nor ecs tuning can figure out the brake pads. I have 280 mm x 22 mm rotors, factory vw calipers. I thought my rotors were 2 thick maybe because they are drilled and slotted, but no 22mm is the standard thickness. The EBC part number is correct on the box and the pads fit, they just are 2 thick. I might try to call EBC directly to find out what is going on..


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## Gerg (Sep 15, 2006)

whats the budget on this build


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

Gerg said:


> whats the budget on this build


more than you can afford pal, GTI


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## stntman (Sep 19, 2002)

you know what tthey say

the fastest way to make a million dollars in racing is to start with 2


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Keep up the good work. 
To build a reliable big power VRT costs.
If it doesnt, its not reliable 
Great build !


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## jbrates (Apr 25, 2013)

This has got to be one of the coolest/craziest build thread I have ever seen on any car forum. Want to hear this thing run.


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## vr6kilo (Mar 4, 2008)

MK123GTi said:


> Thanks, Im hoping to have better luck with gear boxes. we will see this summer I hope. Splitting the load between the 2 and a 7k redline might make the difference..
> 
> 
> Just made some measurements for the shifter cables. pic is for future reference
> ...



what type of cable did u use to extend the shifter cables


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Updates, I need my epic build update


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Notice the drip pan..... High dollar cnc crack pipe>>>>


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## CarNut84GTi (Oct 2, 2002)

Nice :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

:thumbup:


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Now that is a update I will wait for those kind of updates, very very cool sounds mean now for one with both running at once


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Deffinatly worth the wait for the Lugtronic stuff. Kevin made it pretty simple for me to wire it up. I cant believe it fired up on the first try.. :thumbup:

I thought for sure I was going to get something mixed up, Firing order, injectors...
I had to change some values on the TPS from vr6 to mustang, I think It still needs some tweeking...


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

So is that a lugtronics harness or one you built? I'm going with a full harness with mine to clean it all up


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Love the video With the side shot of the car those 288s sounds mean, can't wait to here my aba with the 288 in it


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

awesomeeeeee. i want 288s for my 24v. Lugtronic is definitely worth the wait!


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

What I would do for one of those built motors for my mk3 vrt. :beer::beer::thumbup:
Watching this build progress is the best thing I have ever seen. Sounds pure evil!:vampire:


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

YES!! Sounds so mean. I'll take the sound of a boosted vr6 with huge cams over any V8 or muscle car any day of the week! I would love to see this in person. How close are you to Denver?


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

GTi2OV said:


> YES!! Sounds so mean. I'll take the sound of a boosted vr6 with huge cams over any V8 or muscle car any day of the week! I would love to see this in person. How close are you to Denver?


Yes, but a v8 with huge cams > all. I love my vr6, but I don't think anything compares.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

I had 288s in my vrt with a 4 inch exhaust. Didnt sound like a vr for sure. Sounded ****ing mean. 
Bump for your thread. Very interesting and very well done!


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## Reptar04 (Nov 25, 2013)

What kind of program is that on the lap top your running?


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

That's VEMS Lugtronic standalone interface 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

thanks for the positive vibes,

just need about 3 or 4 days on the car then I Should be able to take it to the dyno. looking like that will be in august some time. 


Just discovered i did in fact mess up the injector wiring...

Im wondering now why it ran so good..

I had a couple mixed up..
wouldn't have noticed unless I was wiring the other harness,

Well the time has come to address the issue of transporting the car to and from Denver. My workshop is at 9000 feet elevation and the track and dyno is down the hill. My daily is a 2001 yukon 5.3.. Sadly will not get the job done. I was kicking around the Idea of getting a duramax truck, but I found that for 1/2 the money of one of those I can soup up my yukon and make use of the GT4094r i had sitting for the shelf from the old vw setup. After some research on LS1tech I decided to go with a On3 turbo kit, LQ4 6.0 block, ls 799 heads, ls 6 CAM and springs. Mad dog level 4 tranny and some other goodies. Should make for a fun daily driver.


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Crazy man nothing like a 1000hp daily grocery getter, post up the link to that build when it begins


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## FMX_DBC (Feb 15, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> thanks for the positive vibes,
> 
> just need about 3 or 4 days on the car then I Should be able to take it to the dyno. looking like that will be in august some time.
> 
> ...


Nice upgrade! :thumbup:


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

MK123GTi said:


> Just discovered i did in fact mess up the injector wiring...
> 
> Im wondering now why it ran so good..
> 
> ...


Unless you’re running sequential, it’ll change nothing, and if you do, most ECU’s start with batch fire, then switch to sequential, but if the mixture is rich enough, you won’t notice any(much) difference.

Lean the mixture to a maximum with a stable idle, then play with the injection angle to reach the richest mixture(all other variables like load, rpm, ignition advance, fuel injection must be as stable as possible), this will be your best injection angle at idle(end of injection), which in general is just before the intake valve opens.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the input on the tuning, I wish I had more time to study. Defiantly running sequential, Got the 6 o2 sensors and the Aem individual AFR charts ready dyno tuning... Hopefully next month I will get some dyno time. I am looking forward to getting to that place...


In the mean time, Stumbled on a dream calculator. Good for a laugh anyways. 1500 HP 3000 lbs Where do they get these numbers from? Must be a dream track


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

Would you post a link to this calculator?
Thanks!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I guess its not that far off, I was watching some pro stock cars the other day, They are about 1350 HP and run 7.2's..

http://vexer.com/automotive-tools/1-4-mile-ET-HP-MPH-calculator


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Getting close to putting the wheels on and see if it drives.. Maybe tomorrow 

the electromagnets dont seem to be working in the shifters, ill try to get that sorted tomorrow as well...


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

A plus! Fixxfest is a possibility


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Congrats.
Hopefully fine tuning will get the shifter dialled in perfect as you don't wanna be stuck in different gears as that would be interesting.
Steve


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Motor I put together for the Yukon, The LS guys have it easy. This costs less than 1 sqs gear kit











I am counting on the shifters to work 100% the whole build was derived from using the twin seq shifters. each motor in a different gear would be scary..


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:eace::wave:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I feel like you slamming the **** out of those shifters haha.

Looks awesome.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## FMX_DBC (Feb 15, 2010)

:thumbup: sweet!


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

:laugh:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

f'n A man, nice work


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

That awesome!! What radiators are those?


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

Looks slow

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

turbo mike said:


> Looks slow
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


Thanks man :thumbup: thats the look Im going for.. Thinking about having a sweet 3d art scape done over the rear hatch firewall. So it looks like some Bumper 15" subs on a UNIC 300 on some sweet piezo tweets. 



huichox4 said:


> That awesome!! What radiators are those?


Griffin aluminum dbl pass one straight, one flipped...



my2000APB said:


> f'n A man, nice work


 :thumbup:


So I have been staying up late, doing some EFI training, been going through the VEMS software starting to get more comfortable with it.. I also am taking an online EFI tuning course from Fastuun> only having experience with the old DTA SA, this new stuff is pretty easy. Very user friendly. I am almost confident enough to tune it myself, Granted I have a great Base tune to start with, but Im almost ready... I started looking for a good dyno spot in denver, So far I havent locked anything down yet. I realy want a place where someone has More EFI experience than me. Seem so far the spots I talked to have a dyno, but all there tuning Is done through email... not on site .. :screwy:


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## automan89 (Sep 17, 2007)

What are you gonna do about in car heat from the rear engine? I assume you'll be leaving the windows out to help? But I feel its still gonna be a sauna in there.

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Amazing craftmanship here. Do you plan on being able to drive it on street or track only? Will suck only being able to drive it a quarter mile at a time  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## automan89 (Sep 17, 2007)

1broknrado said:


> Will suck only being able to drive it a quarter mile at a time
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe that's how he lives his life?

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

automan89 said:


> Maybe that's how he lives his life?
> 
> Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk


Lol


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

automan89 said:


> What are you gonna do about in car heat from the rear engine? I assume you'll be leaving the windows out to help? But I feel its still gonna be a sauna in there.
> 
> Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk


Rear engine will be boxed in with sheet aluminum Similar to the pic below. With a lid separating the engine from the passenger compartment.. I am planning on having the car pass tech to NHRA 8.5 sec.. 
Car will have poly-carbonate windows. 













1broknrado said:


> Amazing craftmanship here. Do you plan on being able to drive it on street or track only? Will suck only being able to drive it a quarter mile at a time
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Car will be full street legal windows, lights..... Can drive it around town, but pushing in 2 twin disc clutches will make for a great lefty workout.. 

I wish I lived my life 1/4 mile at a time. lol I haven't raced anything in 4 years... Let alone less than 10 seconds.. Hopefully 2015 will be the year I get to do so ..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Cant help it


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

first gear feels very tall... as If im trying to take off in 3rd. after review of the ratios.. 0 to 60 under full boost should be interesting/ with both motors running, it moves like im being pushed by a locomotive,, cant wait for the boost..


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## Rado.16vT (May 25, 2005)

what ratios and final drives are you using? I cant wait to hear the sound of this beast on both engines full boost!:beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

MK123GTi said:


> first gear feels very tall... as If im trying to take off in 3rd. after review of the ratios.. 0 to 60 under full boost should be interesting/ with both motors running, it moves like im being pushed by a locomotive,, cant wait for the boost..


sick!! haha 
cant wait to see some videos..

pls slap like 6 GoPros on that monters :thumbup::beer:


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

Have you thought of putting in a valve inline to one of the slave cylinders so when you drive on one motor you can make it to where only one clutch slave is being pressurised so the clutch pedal will be less effort? Just a thought. 

Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk


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## CarNut84GTi (Oct 2, 2002)

Great progress :thumbup:


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## bizybyker (May 25, 2005)

All that work and you got on some junk ass ebay headlights. :laugh: I like where your priorities lie.:thumbup:


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

So how hard was it to install the in terminated wiring harness I'm thinking of just using that instead of the 700 dollar custom harness from Kevin


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

Hands down one of the coolest builds I have ever seen! Keep up the awesome work!
I am def following this to the end!


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

rabbitchaser said:


> So how hard was it to install the in terminated wiring harness I'm thinking of just using that instead of the 700 dollar custom harness from Kevin


Very difficult. You need to make a harness complete from scratch. The unterminated wiring harness is just the pig tail harness in which you need to run all your grounds and powers to all connectors and hook into that pigtail. Sounds a lot easier than it is. Especially if you aren't good with wiring. 

Highly recommend having a professional harness made. Wiring is *NOT* something you want to cut corners and cheap out on.


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Ok sounds good I don't want to fight wiring for weeks when I could have been racing during that time


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

Look at my build thread I made a plug and play harness for my megasquirt so I didn't have to rewire my engine bay maybe you can take some ideas from it. 

Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

My car is stripped so I need a complete harness any way and with his harness I only have to hook up 3 or 4 wires so I will just save up for the harness


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

bizybyker said:


> All that work and you got on some junk ass ebay headlights. :laugh: I like where your priorities lie.:thumbup:


I know,, I cant find the old stock ones. However the inner light has to be cut out to clear for the radiators, And they have turn signals built in. I had these lying around and the work with the radiator and turn signal situation. So they will have to do for now. I am open to suggestions. I think the hella dual bulb ones would show that the inner bulb was cut out and look hacked..

Gear ratios and mph gear charts are on page 1


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

WOW. That valve cover. Is there any place to buy one ?


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## rtolay (Dec 14, 2005)

Valve cover are custom from Spturbo.com


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

What are you going to use as far as gauges


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

rtolay said:


> Valve cover are custom from Spturbo.com


A really nice piece. Bill should consider making more off them.


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## rtolay (Dec 14, 2005)

He will make them as u order them might have one or two in stock


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

I grew up in the VW world with bill, great guy. Lives 3 min from me, and his shop is 150 yrds from my fathers old business...
Reason I say this? If you guys want that stuff, I can walk this thread to him and ask him personally. He's a great guy, and uber talented fabricator.


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## tmoura (Jun 27, 2006)

Noobercorn said:


> I grew up in the VW world with bill, great guy. Lives 3 min from me, and his shop is 150 yrds from my fathers old business...
> Reason I say this? If you guys want that stuff, I can walk this thread to him and ask him personally. He's a great guy, and uber talented fabricator.


Not to thread jack. But, I would be willing to take one for my 24v VRT. Let me know.


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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

@mk123gti where did you get the front smooth bumper? I remember a company making them for like $280 but can't recall the name.:beer:ic:


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

amazing build, just curious about the mustang throttle body, is there a tps sensor that works with the lugtronic and vw wiring harness that is also compatable with the mustang tB?

this is an obd2 setup? 

sorry im currently building a single vrt lol and was wondering if i could use a larger diameter tb. im also using lugtronic. 

:beer:


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## Crispy222 (Mar 10, 2008)

wolfens_golf said:


> amazing build, just curious about the mustang throttle body, is there a tps sensor that works with the lugtronic and vw wiring harness that is also compatable with the mustang tB?
> 
> this is an obd2 setup?
> 
> ...


Yes you can use the mustang TPS directly wired to VEMS. Just configure it. I'm looking at running a Pro-Jay Low Profile Mustang TB (80mm) on my 1.8T 2L
http://www.pro-jay.com/Pro-jay-Low-Profile-Mustang-Throttle-Body-PJ-MTB-VF.htm


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

Right on! Thanks man


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I used an edelbrock 70mm TB. 

They also make a 75mm version which is slightly more expensive. 

http://www.amazon.com/Edelbrock-3811-70mm-Throttle-Body/dp/B000CN521M


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Crispy222 said:


> Yes you can use the mustang TPS directly wired to VEMS. Just configure it. I'm looking at running a Pro-Jay Low Profile Mustang TB (80mm) on my 1.8T 2L
> http://www.pro-jay.com/Pro-jay-Low-Profile-Mustang-Throttle-Body-PJ-MTB-VF.htm


Whish this post was made a year ago, I got some crappy jegs bbks notorious for boost leak,, Any tps will work with the vems tps wizard. 0-5v


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Looks like the below 3k lbs is going to be off by 100 lbs or so.. Sitting at 2820, Plus Driver 200, plus at least another 100 or so lbs of windows, firewalls and other stuff. So about 3150, which still gives me a decent power to weight ratio..


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

that power/weight ratio is still insane for a vw!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Power to weight is going to be awesome if it works...

Some good info on differential torque loss. 

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/dyno-testing-engines.html

Differential losses tend to be considerably larger, especially in the case of RWD and AWD vehicles where the torque path is turned 90 degrees as it enters the rear diff and exits it toward the rear wheels. In the case of hypoid-type gearsets (where the gear tooth profile is both curved and oblique) that are commonly used in RWD differentials, losses in the 6 to 10 percent range are the norm, while loss from the driveshaft(s) and prop shaft(s) tend to account for about 0.5 to 1 percent of total loss, depending on how well they're balanced and how many the vehicle is equipped with. In the case of FWD vehicles, the torque path is more direct to the front wheels and the use of efficient helical final drive gears means that drivetrain losses can be as much as 50 percent lower than on RWD and AWD vehicles.


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## BleedVW (Oct 26, 2010)

This is one of the builds that you read and say "Psh, we'll see how that works out for ya", because most people quit early on. Glad to see it this far, and can't wait to hear it run!! :beer:


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## DankNugz (May 19, 2007)

So I gave this idea to a friend of mine a few years ago (because I wanna do a Corrado much like this car was done) when I found the "Lupo W12" YouTube video. He said he hasn't stopped thinking about it since then and is now building a Del Sol with a K20 turbo in the front and rear. He's looking for 600 HP out of each motor and has already started on the build by building a jig for a front subframe to be mounted in the rear. Kinda mad he stole my idea (and with a Honda...), but it will be a sick car just the same.

Great build man, keep up the good work.

PS I have another friend with a VR6T syncro running very similar engine parts (Schimmel SRI, valve cover, Lugtronic management, etc) and all he had to say is you have too much money to throw around  lol


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys, I really dont even bother to talk to anyone about my build anymore, Most people dont believe me, or are very skeptical about it. " what? your building an awd drag car with 2 motors... In a VW golf... 12 cyl, 1600 HP, :what: Good one"

Started on the firewalls today. Looking pretty tight so far.. I


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

No matter how much money you spend on a car, there will always be someone who spends more. I just think of this guys camaro. Twin turbo supercharged nitros car that wont even get down a track... lol


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## ACM (Mar 15, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> "what? your building an awd drag car with 2 motors... In a VW golf... 12 cyl, 1600 HP, :what: Good one"


Thanx for the new sig! 

Been following this from the start and def one of my favourite builds upon the web! Awesome work! :thumbup:


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Let the vids and times do the talking when the time is right.
You are in an elite bubble where you are living the dream and its more for you than others but a bonus is that others can enjoy the journey with you..if they believe..
Steve


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

sTT eV6 said:


> Let the vids and times do the talking when the time is right.
> You are in an elite bubble where you are living the dream and its more for you than others but a bonus is that others can enjoy the journey with you..if they believe..
> Steve


I agree.. :thumbup: 

Trying to get this thing dyno ready before the snow starts.. I cant wait to see the torque curve of these motors.. 
This is all just a working mock up. After its together and everything is in its final home. The whole car gets completely disassembled for body work. paint, and powder/ceramic coating. Then back together again for the spring of 2015..


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## lilnick (Feb 15, 2005)

Hope you heat wrap that down pipe .looks like that silicon coupling is going to melt !
Awesome build!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

lilnick said:


> Hope you heat wrap that down pipe .looks like that silicon coupling is going to melt !
> Awesome build!


Thanks, All hot parts will be ceramic coated and heat shields where needed. That coupling is only temporary, It will be welded back up, There was a slight variance between The JDL manifolds. I only had one to do the early mock up..


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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

Looking amazing!:beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

EVO paddle shifter circuit test.. ITS a GO,, Left paddle is launch,, right paddle will be up shift..


















































































SO I got one of these rear bumpers on the way, I wanted a fiberglass one as a good starting point to build off of for the flares. It will hide the fuel cells and tuck in the 4" exhaust. I should be able to make it look 1/2 way decent//


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

It's a car again and looks awesome , what will be feeding fresh air to the rear engine and how is the heat from the engine escaping


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

no words ..just amazing :beer::beer:


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i see what you mean by painting speakers on your rear cover lol - awesome work


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## evosilica (Mar 6, 2012)

please make it look as oem as possible. those rear bumpers look so dated


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

evosilica said:


> please make it look as oem as possible. those rear bumpers look so dated


I would guess he is trying to extend the bumper down, to better hide the fuel cell and lines.


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## evosilica (Mar 6, 2012)

G60 Carat said:


> I would guess he is trying to extend the bumper down, to better hide the fuel cell and lines.


I understand the need for an extended bumper, I'd just try to remain an oem'ish look.
The build itself is stunning


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys Ill try to keep the bumper as oem as possible with a 4 inch tube poking out the arse.. 

As far as the gauges go, I was planning on using some tabs with the vems bluetooth conection, however that wont work out. everytime the ecu disconnects from the tab you have to do a bunch of crap to get them back in line.. 

However if the tabs r running windows 8 and can run the full vems software.. they can be hardwired in through rs232 to usb so it will re connect quickly.. 
So, 2 windows surface tabs running windows 8 with full tuning software will be in the dash. usb hub on the surface with rs232 and a wireless keyboards. should be pretty dope.. Saves me a lot of time and wiring to put in a bunch of dummy lights that I wouldn't even look at during the time on track.... Most important info is what gear the motors r in, that will be the most visible heads up display. I need to be able to crush the clutch if if see the numbers dont match.. 


Going to start on a custom dash next week//

I realy cant wait to do some custom flares and tie in all the fiberglass.. Just waiting on the sweet ass Z3 fenders umpkin:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

baddest flares on the planet


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Awesome thanks for the info on using the tabs I liked the idea when you posted itbearluer in the thread I ha ve purchesed one surface for my car and will start with that and see if i will need 2 just making a bracket with cover to hold them as my car is fully striped


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Fantastic work as usuall.
I wondered where my sideboard had gone..
Steve


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the wood siding Steve. I'm tempted just to give it a good minwax stain or maybe some linseed oil and call it a day. I was planning on using some fiberglass sheets to make it with but the plywood is easier to work with and just as light. The top of the dash will be removable to access the reservoirs and wiring. Im a little worried that its going to look "Fast and Furious" with flat screens in the dash, but we'll see how it goes. A coat of sanding primer and matte black finish trimmed in green might be ok. It still could wind up in the scrap pile, not sure yet. 
Car is at 2960lbs, So it looks like Ill be able to keep it a hair under 3000 lbs finished weight. Im fine with that.. Still needs the air shifter, body kit, sunroof, wiring, rear bumper tubing, and a few other do dads..


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Can't wait to see the thing launching...:thumbup:


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

surprised you didn't just bend up some aluminum sheet for the dash


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

Slayer said:


> surprised you didn't just bend up some aluminum sheet for the dash


Same here!!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Still could be done in aluminum, The .032 sheets I have are a little heavier than the wood. It doesn't hold its shape as well, looks kind of wavy. Still up in the air as far as the dash goes.


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

do you have access to a bead roller? roll some beads in it, and it'll make it pretty rigid


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> Still could be done in aluminum, The .032 sheets I have are a little heavier than the wood. It doesn't hold its shape as well, looks kind of wavy. Still up in the air as far as the dash goes.


Carbon Fiber?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So, bandamire speedway is at 5800 ft, my shop is at9700 ft,, I realy wish I could understand why tunes r supposed to be diferent with a map sensor? From what I have read the o2 content in the air is constant. 21% at sea level. o2 content at 10k feet is 21% as well, given in boost in order to get the same map readings the turbo has to spin faster to achive the same pressure... which in a na car the same map pressure can be achieved by opening the throttlwe plate.. So what does altitude have to do with tune when yiou r running manifod pressure.. anyone ????


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> So, bandamire speedway is at 5800 ft, my shop is at9700 ft,, I realy wish I could understand why tunes r supposed to be diferent with a map sensor? From what I have read the o2 content in the air is constant. 21% at sea level. o2 content at 10k feet is 21% as well, given in boost in order to get the same map readings the turbo has to spin faster to achive the same pressure... which in a na car the same map pressure can be achieved by opening the throttlwe plate.. So what does altitude have to do with tune when yiou r running manifod pressure.. anyone ????


Air density


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## kyle_h (Aug 1, 2010)

21% is constant but like he said density. For example say you and your buddy each got 21% on a test (Bette study more lol) but you got 21/100 and he got 42/200. You both got 21% but he got double what you got right... Kind of a ****ty comparison but I think you'd get the point. So air density is like that, more dense has more oxygen but it's the same percentage of the air...

Someone shoot me if I went on and on for nothing lol 


Sent from my iPhone using the Tapatalk app, so that explains the typos...


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So if i fill a jar with air at 10000 feet and pressurize it to 30 psi then seal it up. And do the same at sea level. Take both jars to the moon. The 30 psi jar from sea level contains more oxegen than the jar filled at 10,000 feet? I cant seem to comprehend this.. for some reason 30 psi is 30 psi to me no matter what altitude you are at, it would just take a bigger pump to build the same pressure at a higher altitude..


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## kyle_h (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes but the pressure is different at different altitudes. So do the same experiment without pressure. The atmospheric pressure in each jar will be different, so oxygen levels also slight le different 


Sent from my iPhone using the Tapatalk app, so that explains the typos...


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

MK123GTi said:


> So if i fill a jar with air at 10000 feet and pressurize it to 30 psi then seal it up. And do the same at sea level. Take both jars to the moon. The 30 psi jar from sea level contains more oxegen than the jar filled at 10,000 feet? I cant seem to comprehend this.. for some reason 30 psi is 30 psi to me no matter what altitude you are at, it would just take a bigger pump to build the same pressure at a higher altitude..


The mass of the jar contents is different. 
You could play with this calculator and see what changes when altitude is altered:
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

If your input data is reasonable, your performance results will be plausible.


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

Just to throw it out there, this is the reason for barometric correction. I tuned my fuel table to my altitude in ia. I can tune baro correction and go to the mountains in co and not touch my fuel table directly.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I understand the air is thinner and has less oxegen up here. The vems has a barometric correction as well.. However I don't understand that 2 identical air compressors with the same size tanks. One filled at sea level the other at 9000 feet.. Both filled to 100psi.. It seems to me the mass of the air would be the same.. The one in the mountains would have to run longer to get the same psi.. I'm sure it's simple explanation.. I just can't seem to grasp it..


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

It's the ideal gas law.

pv=nrt
pressure
volume
number of molecules in mols (how many actual molecules of air exist in one mol, 6.022141x10^23 molecules in 1 mole of standard air)
r - specific gas constant (287.058 J/(kg·K) for dry air)
temperature


pressure changes with altitude
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=standard+atmospheric+pressure

If your container volume remains constant (1 glass jar), temperature is constant, R is constant, and you change the altitude (pressure) for the second jar, the number of molecules of air in the container will change.

You're right about the one in the mountains taking longer to fill to get the same number of moles of atmosphere. You can achieve the same number of moles in the same time by increasing pressure, or decreasing volume. It would be n=(0->time)∫p*v*time/rt Δtime).

edit: had my calculus wrong


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the help with this guys.. 

Im trying to understand why the fuel table will be different for different altitudes

Here is my fuel table









On the left is the manifold pressure in Kpa. It would seem to me that the fuel table would stay the same no matter what altitude im at. To achieve the same manifold pressure the turbo would have to work harder to get there but the fuel table would stay the same. 

So if the manifold pressure is 2 bar and the engine is spinning 5000 rpms. Does it require more fuel at sea level? Seems to me the same amount of air is in the manifold at any given altitude as long as the pressure is the same.

Am I close?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

go back to the ideal gas law. pv=nrt

The pressure will be the same, but the number of air molecules in the mixture will be different because atmospheric pressure is different. pressure goes up, n goes up. More molecules require more fuel. target boost pressure is irrelevant. alternatively, you could have an altitude specific boost target. 5000ft altitude = 12.3 psi atmospheric pressure, 0ft altitude (sea level) = 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure. To achieve the same power at 5000ft as sea level, you would need to run an additional 2.4psi of boost.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html


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## kyle_h (Aug 1, 2010)

Ever seen those experiments where people boil water with no heat, only vacuum? Higher altitude = less pressure. It's just like boost. Less boost = less power. 


Sent from my iPhone using the Tapatalk app, so that explains the typos...


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the responses guys...

I get the whole pressure stuff, Water boils at my house around 170F,,,

Im Just hung up on the difference between 15psi measured in the same manifold at different altitudes. When I get some more free time Il can read up on those engineering and technical links Pat posted. I am still thinking that the turbo has to work harder to achieve the same boost levels at higher altitudes. Im sure its an easy concept to grasp but im a little slow.

I think If I can get the answer to this question explained, I can move on with my life, lol

If 2 equal size jars, both equipped with a pressure gauge, are pressurized with air to 100 psi, one was filled at sea level the other was filled at 10,000 feet. 
Take both jars to the moon. 

Will both jars still read 100 psi? 
Which jar has more available o2 to burn? 
Why?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

You're forgetting about atmospheric presssure .

In your experiment, 100 psi is gauge pressure, not absolute pressure. Absolute pressure is gauge_pressure + boost_pressure. 
100 psi gauge + 14.7psi atmosphere (sea level) = 114.7psi absolute
100 psi gauge + 10.1 psi atmosphere (10,00 ft) = 110.1 psi absolute
Keeping temperature constant at time of pressurization, the sea level jar will have more air in it.

If you corrected the experiment so both jar were filled to 100 psi absolute, they would both contain the same amount of air, however:
The 10,000 ft jar would take longer to charge
The 10,000 ft jar would be charged to 89.9 psi gauge pressure
The sea level jar would be charged to 85.3 psi gauge pressure.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So I am right back where I started from. The Car uses a Map sensor.

The Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP sensor) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system.

Engines that use a MAP sensor are typically fuel injected. The manifold absolute pressure sensor provides instantaneous manifold pressure information to the engine's electronic control unit (ECU). The data is used to calculate air density and determine the engine's air mass flow rate, which in turn determines the required fuel metering for optimum combustion (see stoichiometry) and influence the advance or retard of ignition timing. A fuel-injected engine may alternately use a mass airflow sensor (MAF sensor) to detect the intake airflow. A typical configuration employs one or the other, but seldom both.

MaP sensor data can be converted to air mass data using the speed-density method. Engine speed (RPM) and air temperature are also necessary to complete the speed-density calculation. The MaP sensor can also be used in OBD II (on-board diagnostics) applications to test the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve for functionality, an application typical in OBD II equipped General Motors engines.



If the intake manifold is measured in absolute pressure, That will be constant no matter what altitude. 
My car idling at 1200 rpms at at 10,000 feet has the same MAP sensor reading as my car idling at 1200 rpms at sea level, Just my throttle plate will be open more at 10,000 feet to allow more of the thinner air in the manifold to achieve the same MAP. 

At 10000ft, the standard barometric pressure is 71 kPa (534 mmHg). This means that there is 70% of the oxygen available at sea level.
At 0ft, the standard barometric pressure is 101 kPa (760 mmHg). This means that there is 100% of the oxygen available at sea level.


At 10,00 feet a standard boost guage will show boost past 71kpa or 10.1 psi so 14 lbs of boost is 14+10.1 psi absolute pressure of 24.1 psi
At sea level 14.7 + 14 pounds of boost will be 28.7 absolute pressure. So more power at sea level I get that.

What I dont get is if my ECU uses speed density and manifold absolute pressure to calculate air mass, than why does altitude change my fuel table?
If my car is running at 2.0 bar the turbo will just have to spin X amount faster to achieve 2.0 bar at higher altitudes.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

MK123GTi said:


> So I am right back where I started from. The Car uses a Map sensor.
> 
> The Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP sensor) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system.
> 
> ...



That's correct. Higher compressor rpm to compensate for changes in absolute pressure. Why the ECU is set up that way, I do not know. I would expect that to be completely covered under absolute pressure vs boost_requested and fuel vs absolute pressure. Maybe it's so if you are already past the limits of the compressor at low altitude, you change fuel tables to compensate for altitude instead of overspinning the turbo?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Ok, so would I be correct with these assumptions.

Since the fuel table uses absolute pressure vs engine rpms, The fuel table will not change with altitude.

To compensate for altitude the engine will have different throttle plate positions and different compressor wheel speeds to achieve the same Manifold absolute pressure at different altitudes. So no changes to the fuel table are needed??

I am contemplating having a garage sale to get a Dyno at my shop. I am in the mountains. If I tune the car at my shop (9000 ft) using speed density (manifold absolute pressure) then take it to the track (5800 ft) The tune "fuel table" will be the same. Using a fuel table that was tuned to 2 BAR using a map sensor. At wide open throttle the only difference will be compressor wheel speed to achieve the same manifold pressures. 

Close???


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

If density is mass verse volume, can't you have the same pressure with different levels of o2 vs other gasses.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Jckl said:


> If density is mass verse volume, can't you have the same pressure with different levels of o2 vs other gasses.


Density is mass/volume while pressure is force/area. You can convert pressure to density by factoring in temperature and volume. Comparing density directly to pressure is like comparing torque (force) to hp (force/time) by saying the vehicle with higher torque will be faster. Or like saying you sitting on a rigid table changes the tables density. This is controlled for in compressor maps by using STP (standard temperature and pressure)




> Density of air can also be expressed as
> 
> ρ = 1.325 pin Hg / TR
> 
> ...


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-temperature-pressure-density-d_771.html

if you control for temperature, then higher pressure will result in higher density.



MK123GTi said:


> Ok, so would I be correct with these assumptions.
> 
> Since the fuel table uses absolute pressure vs engine rpms, The fuel table will not change with altitude.
> 
> ...


Yes, correct.

Throttle position shouldn't change, as the ecu should be using the tps and iat to control % load. But yes. If you're tuning speed density, then I don't think there should be a need to change fueling vs altitude *provided* fueling is controlled by load or map vs rpm *and* you are not running a different tune (boost or timing) for different altitude and allowing the ecu to control map blending and the turbo can support the increased rpms required at higher altitudes. I do not know if VEMS can support that feature or not - it's a pretty feature-basic ecu.


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## BySeaByLand (Aug 30, 2010)

Pitt is correct, it's all in the molecules. The density of the air molecules at sea level will be greater. The air at a higher altitude will be less dense, a lower concentration of air molecules. So as he said, in order for you to have the power requested the same at higher elevation the turbo will have to work harder to compensate for that loss. Additionally, that should answer your question about the jars. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## BySeaByLand (Aug 30, 2010)

Sorry, I was a little behind there. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

So I'm curious, any reason why you went with a 8.5 cage on a tube chassis instead of just jumping straight to 25.x? And any plans to try and correct "rear end" geometry to prevent squatting on launch?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the help with the altitude stuff, I think I have a better understanding now.. 

when I first did the plans for the car, I didnt think I would go faster than 8.50, If somehow this all works and It is capable of running faster than 8.50. I can still have the additional tube work done to meet spec. On a 26 inch tire the gear kits can reach 200 mph.. 

I didnt have any plans to change the rear end geometry. However I am running much stiffer springs in the rear. I will use zip ties on the shock shaft and measure how much the rear end squats on launch. Then set the alignment and camber to the squat height. Or somewhere in between launch height and mid track height. Try to find a happy medium, i guess. I am open to suggestions.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Zip ties to measure travel are a neat idea. I'm only starting to learn about setting up drag car suspensions.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Can someone help me out with the 02m VSS wiring

From this pic top middle bottom pins

I think its +12v, Sig, Ground but Im not sure. 

Save me some time with the car jacked up and a meter doing trial and error..

Thanks


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

MK123GTi said:


> Can someone help me out with the 02m VSS wiring
> 
> From this pic top middle bottom pins
> 
> ...


you got it. All 3 pin vw speed sensor at that way


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Daskoupe said:


> you got it. All 3 pin vw speed sensor at that way


Thanks, Going to get the rest of this wired up next week.Looks like your in my home town. 941 was my old stomping grounds years ago.. :thumbup:


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

MK123GTi said:


> Thanks, Going to get the rest of this wired up next week.Looks like your in my home town. 941 was my old stomping grounds years ago.. :thumbup:


I remember the orange mk2 vr6 from my first fixxfest :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well this is what i came up with for the dash, the stripped down stock one would have weighed about 11 lbs, The one I made weighs only 7.5. I spent some extra time with some sanding primer and got it looking pretty good, Going to color match the lower part surf green and a matte gloss finish, the top will be rad rod matte black. I think it will look ok. I might even do the whole car in a matte surf green. Im sure some people wont like the dash and screens but I think its cool.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

you sir are doing WORK!:laugh:


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Looks better than expected..
Steve


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

i can dig it! :thumbup:

also for your dash (top) since you mentioned doing matte black; check out "flocking" the top, will give the same effect and more durable.

check these folks out and give them a call, very helpful! 

http://www.flockit.com/


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I spent way too much time sanding and priming to cover it with flock, Im going to stick to base coat, clear coat. Thanks for the suggestion though..


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Looks like an airplane! ****in racecar for sure! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Awesome looks great I actually really like the screens very modern race car look


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the input on the screens. I have to check myself sometimes, no one is around to tell me when I have gone too far, I have been known to do some pretty stupid stuff to vws.. (flames, suicide doors, neon... lol) But I have grown out of most of that stuff... 

Got the turbo housing drilled and tapped for the dual bank Aem o2 sensors. Each cylinder has an o2 sensor pre turbo and requires a pressure sensor to compensate for the exhaust back pressure to give accurate readings. Since the manifold is twin scroll it needs 2 pressure sensors for cyl 123, 456. JDL did an amazing job on these manifolds, sensors fit great with no interference. :thumbup::thumbup: The custom lugtronic ECU has 6 (0-5V) inputs that will be calibrated to log and display individual lambda readings. This will allow me to dial in the individual injector trims to compensate for the manifold favoring 1 cyl or another. I have been a victim of dyno destruction from the unequal length vr ports. Lesson learned long ago.. I also installed an extra 02 sensor post turbo for the dyno to log as well. rear motor has 8 o2 sensors now... im hoping to cut and paste the tune to the front motor, i can add add additional 4 feet of exhaust tube to the rear just for tuning to simulate the front motor, other than that they should be pretty close..


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## FMX_DBC (Feb 15, 2010)

Thats a lot of o2 sensors! Keep up the good work. It's awesome to see


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Window material what did you use and were did you get it , was thinking of ordering a set from Europe but my coupe is a little hard to find pre made race Windows


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## borys (Jul 11, 2003)

In Poland Oplel Calibra Bimoto with 2 engines VW R30 1400HP. more information here http://www.mickey-garage.com/projekty/57/tsunami---calibra-bimoto--1400km-1400nm


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Nice to see that car is holding up, Those launches look fun. Wonder why they didnt build it in a vw. Gives me some motivation :thumbup: 8 second twin vr car, I guess I wont be the first (if my car works), But Im still hoping to be the first doing separate front and rear burnouts.. But Im sure that has been done before. 



The windows are 1/8 lexan polycarbonate, Used a jig saw to cut them out. Pretty simple..


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## Mickey Garage (Oct 26, 2014)

MK123GTi said:


> Nice to see that car is holding up, Those launches look fun. Wonder why they didnt build it in a vw. Gives me some motivation :thumbup: 8 second twin vr car, I guess I wont be the first (if my car works), But Im still hoping to be the first doing separate front and rear burnouts.. But Im sure that has been done before.
> 
> 
> 
> The windows are 1/8 lexan polycarbonate, Used a jig saw to cut them out. Pretty simple..




burnout with 4tires looks better  and ok you can turn one gear, but what will you do with throttle? in my car front engine see rear's rpm and keep similiar  why not in VW? becuase i like Calibra, and it has better CX  

but on one event i broke front clutch and make goodlooking burnout  









this is my street car:
http://www.mickey-garage.com/projekty/48/opel-calibra-r32-turbo---704km-702nm


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

thanks for the reply mickey. 
Seems our cars are pretty close in power and weight. 

Can you help me with the tire selection?
What size do you run?

I was planning on running the 24.5 x 9 drag slicks this would give me 175 mph at 7000 rpms in 4th gear. That is the widest and shortest size I could find. 

They make a 26 inch tall tire that is 10 inches wide this gives me 175 at about 6450 rpms, I think that would be better for the 12V motor. 

What do you think, Should I not even bother with the 24.5 x 9? Go with the 26 x 10? 

Screw it,, put the 26 x 12 all the way around????

I just wasn't sure how the car would hold up on launching with the tires. I was thinking the smaller tire would be easier on the gearboxes, but your car seems to do great with those tires, Im assuming they are 10+ inch wide. 

I have to make some custom flares over the winter, and I might as well do it with the bigger tires if that is what the car is going to require. 

Also what gear kits are you using? stock?

Your rear suspension work is Bad ass!! I wish I would have done something different in the rear, bumpsteer is lame


Anyhow its good to see someone with experience drag racing a twin engine car, not very many people in the world do.. :thumbup:


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## Mickey Garage (Oct 26, 2014)

i have 26x11.5-15" tires

gearbox are stock 

rear suspension is our custm made  works fine  

i think bimoto can runs good times


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

Here is the opposite - VW but with RB26 3.2L:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy8-nCShXmo


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> I was planning on running the 24.5 x 9 drag slicks this would give me 175 mph at 7000 rpms in 4th gear. That is the widest and shortest size I could find.
> 
> They make a 26 inch tall tire that is 10 inches wide this gives me 175 at about 6450 rpms, I think that would be better for the 12V motor.
> 
> What do you think, Should I not even bother with the 24.5 x 9? Go with the 26 x 10?


7000 rpm is nothing-- you will end up revving it higher than that with your engine setups.

Stick with 24.5's, they will hook fine, give you much better gearing, be easier to fit, and be much kinder to parts. 26's are tranny killers with the weight of your car.

Remember the car in Poland is running on essentially un-prepped airport surfaces-- much different than US dragstrips. This does make it much easier on gearsets and makes an argument for needing 26's to hook.


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## pennilessVR6 (Nov 16, 2009)

Moar!:thumbup:


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

Yeah with those 288's, you'll rev higher than that.. I think Tim Mullen revs past 8k


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Slayer said:


> Yeah with those 288's, you'll rev higher than that.. I think Tim Mullen revs past 8k


Timmy revs past 8500 rpm.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Dyno/track torque curves determine shift points. 

Haven't had much time for the car lately 

SP has some adj timing gears for the VR doing some different cam timing from front to rear will give a broader torque awd curve, I need a 2500 rpm span to cover my gear kits.

I would love to see a 12v vr motors torque curve that justifies a 8k+ shift.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> Dyno/track torque curves determine shift points.
> 
> Haven't had much time for the car lately
> 
> ...



268* cams would give you a much better HP/TQ RPM power band than 288* cams,
now you'll have to rev higher to stay on the power band.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> Dyno/track torque curves determine shift points.
> 
> I would love to see a 12v vr motors torque curve that justifies a 8k+ shift.


I think this is pretty good justification: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuq97LQkvxw


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I seen that, Its awesome another vw in the 8 second club. That video doesn't show his torque curve. I will be using my dyno torque curve for selecting starting shift points. If My engines make max torque at 5k rpm than I would add the rpm drop to the next gear to 5k to start the next gear at max torque. 










So if my car makes max torque at 5K rpms My shift points would be as follows.

1st to second gear 7293 rpm
2nd to third gear 7356 rpm
3rd to fourth gear 7130 rpm

Team lugtronic obviously has things dialed in. Maybe their motors make max torque at 6k rpms (which I doubt) then a 8500 shift point is justified. Or maybe they have a shorter final drive that "requires" a higher shift point to achieve desired mph. Remember I have imported Ibiza TDi final drives 2.955. My gearing and tire selection was selected for about a 7k shift point. If for some reason my max torque is much higher than 5k, then a different camshaft profile will be the better choice. 


8 second cars dont seem as cool anymore, 4000 lb caddys are in the 8's


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

Depending on your turbo's back housing A/R with the 288* cams your max torque will come in around 5300-5600K RPM


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

I started typing up somthing long and drawn out about why we run my car the way we do but i know you don't really care lol. Its all a matter of opinion. good luck with the build i wish i had the time and means to put more fab work into my car. :thumbup:


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> I started typing up somthing long and drawn out about why we run my car the way we do but i know you don't really care lol. Its all a matter of opinion. good luck with the build i wish i had the time and means to put more fab work into my car. :thumbup:


What are you launching at? RPM/Boost
Also what is the max boost you are hitting?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> I started typing up somthing long and drawn out about why we run my car the way we do but i know you don't really care lol. Its all a matter of opinion. good luck with the build i wish i had the time and means to put more fab work into my car. :thumbup:



Well I would be interested, If you want to share your experience. If not I understand. I never had much success drag racing this car, my best time ever was a high 10, when I could get the car to shift into 5th. Congratulations on the 8 second passes. :thumbup: You obviously found the recipe for success with the 12V motors.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

I was just trying to make the point that you will not be shifting @ 7000 rpm with your cams and turbo. Timmy also runs 288's and a 72mm turbo-- hence the video and comparisons to your setup. 

We don't have a dyno chart because it's been years since Timmy's car has been on a dyno. His car is tuned on the track, so we don't bother beating it up on the dyno-- it would only be for marketing purposes at this point, which isn't entirely out of the question.

I understand gear charts and how to use them, but it is not as simple as calculating rpm drop to peak torque when you want to get the best e.t. out of a car on the dragstrip. Like anything, there are many other variables.

I'm trying to give you a little insight based on a lot of real world experience going quick with VW's. I am also well aware what is going on outside the VW world, but let's face it, comparisons to CTS-V's are irrelevant to your current project. 8's might seem cliche to some, but it ain't easy with a VW,as you will find out. Good luck with your project.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I know I still have a long road ahead of me, I appreciate the insight and knowledge from experienced vw racers. 

I wish that I would have known that the 12V motors would make power to 8k+. I really wanted to use FFE's gear kits, However they would not produce the mph I wanted on a 24.5 tire at a 7k redline. But a 8500 rev would have worked...So I went with the sqs. 

I like seeing other heavier cars going fast, wasnt comparing a caddy to a vw. I just know what the power/weight potential is for my car, and its encouraging. 

Its hard to not come of as a jerk on the internet with just typed words. :beer:


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> I know I still have a long road ahead of me, I appreciate the insight and knowledge from experienced vw racers.


:thumbup: Good luck with your project-- it will be cool to see the results. :beer:


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## Gromel (May 12, 2012)

This build is amazing. I cant wait to see/hear a video of this thing.......I pass thru summit county quite often, would love to see this in person.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Im liking the matte finish, going to shoot the whole car that way, maybe


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Dash looks beaut and a neat finish.
Keep it up and push for the line.
Steve


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

I like it too. I prefer the clear shiny paint better than matte tjough. I hope you do t get any glare from the black top piece. I would have color matched that as well to hopefully not get any glare 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## clarksongli (Nov 4, 2003)

*NHRA 8.5 Rules*

Hey sweet build. I'm glad to see some others taking the challenge on. A few things i noticed based on my build and getting through Tech Inspection:

1. Coolant pipes running through the cabin. Mine were built out of .045" 6061 tube....i was told no coolant was allowed to pass through the cabin....the one exception was if i run a secondary bulkhead. The suggestion was to run another slightly larger tube over the existing tube.

My solution was to just move the tubes under the car and remove them completely from the cabin.

2. Same question came up with the AWIC lines. Again they wanted to see a secondary bulkhead, and again i chose to route them under the car.

3. Brake lines, lines must be fastened down, they aren't big fans of zip ties as restraints. Again i routed my down under the car using the stock locations.

4. Fuel cells. So to "clarify" aluminum tanks are typically called cells, but in reality they are just tanks. I was busted once based on the mounting structure for my aluminum tank. My fix was stepping up to a FIA/SFI bladder fuel cell. Required a steel can, and a bunch of angle to be welded in.

SO THAT'S IT! haha.

One thing i changed myself. I added hood pins and a "quick release" hood for the rear. Originally it was held down with Dzus fasteners all around, however after seeing someone else have their car burn to the ground because they couldn't get the rear hood out to use the extinguisher, i opted for something easily removeable. I've honestly been thinking of getting a fire system now that they aren't insanely expensive anymore.

Anywho, i'm glad to see your project coming along and looking awesome. Feel free to PM me and we can exchange emails or something. As you clearly realize, building to NHRA or SCCA/NASA specifications requires a significant amount of thought.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

clarksongli said:


> Hey sweet build. I'm glad to see some others taking the challenge on. A few things i noticed based on my build and getting through Tech Inspection:
> 
> 1. Coolant pipes running through the cabin. Mine were built out of .045" 6061 tube....i was told no coolant was allowed to pass through the cabin....the one exception was if i run a secondary bulkhead. The suggestion was to run another slightly larger tube over the existing tube.
> 
> ...


Got any pics or info on your build? Would be nice to see another working twin engine car...:thumbup:

The coolant lines will be boxed in with sheet aluminum. 
All the zip ties and sheet metal screws will be will be replaced with proper fasteners and rivets during final assembly.
Rear fuel cells are boxed in with angle steel and bolted in place. 

I really didnt think there would be any fuss over the ice water being pumped through the cabin, I have seen a few large v8 turbo cars with the intercoolers and plumbing running right in the passengers seat. I sure hope this doesn't cause a problem. Im not using plain heater hose. 

Not sure about the rear engine cover yet, I was planning to use 1/4 turn fasteners, But you bring up a good point about the ease of access in case of an emergency, I might rethink that.. 

Thanks for the input... :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

had some time this week to get the rollers set up. All of the gremlins and Gnomes are starting to show their faces. 

First of all I had some suspicions about the shortblock in the rear. Since day one it seemed to have a load on it. It didnt have the quick throttle response and pop of the front motor. I went through all of the cam timing, oil pressure, compression and ecu settings. But could not find anything out of spec. I thought maybe it was the alternator that was causing the drag on the motor. I pulled out all the plugs and hand turned the crank but couldnt exactly tell if there was a problem. Well I moved on. Figured if there was a problem it would show up down the road. Well it showed up on the dyno. After several 7k low boost 3rd gear pulls a bad knock showed up in the rear engine. 

Here is a video of the knock sound. 






Sounds to me like a rod bearing has overheated and flopping around. Wont be sure till I break it down and check it out. Positive note is I have a broke in fully built SP block as a backup while I can get the IE one fixed.. 

After that mishap, I moved on to the front motor. Started breaking it in with some low load driving. And melted the shifter cable to the Down pipe. The custom cables I got from SQS were a bit short and I couldn't get enough space around the 4" down pipe, discouraged about the rear mishap, I forgot about this issue and just drove it on the dyno anyways. 

So next up Ill get the stock shifter box and cables installed on the front motor and do some tuning. And when I get a full day for the car Ill rebuild the rear setup with the Sp. short block and move on from there. 





































Boost leak test


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## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

Not the update we were looking forward to but at least you know what the issues are and you what to do to fix them :thumbup: Keep up the good work!


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## GRN6IX (Jan 2, 2003)

Nice to see this thing on the rollers :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I have been chasing my tail for a couple days now. I cant get the front motor to rev past 5500. Vems is showing a primary trigger error at 5500 engine acts like launch control is on. 
Here is what I have tried so far. 
Swapped ecu's
Swapped crank sensors
Ran temporary new shielded cable wiring to ecu from crank sensor
Checked all grounds
added grounding at crank sensor connector. 

I registered at the vems forums for help but it takes a couple days for admin to approve it. 

If anyone would like to help with the issue PM me an email address and I can send a trigger log and log of the problem. 

Thanks

A video of the rev trouble

Launch control is off


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

MK123GTi said:


> had some time this week to get the rollers set up. All of the gremlins and Gnomes are starting to show their faces.
> 
> First of all I had some suspicions about the shortblock in the rear. Since day one it seemed to have a load on it. It didnt have the quick throttle response and pop of the front motor. I went through all of the cam timing, oil pressure, compression and ecu settings. But could not find anything out of spec. I thought maybe it was the alternator that was causing the drag on the motor. I pulled out all the plugs and hand turned the crank but couldnt exactly tell if there was a problem. Well I moved on. Figured if there was a problem it would show up down the road. Well it showed up on the dyno. After several 7k low boost 3rd gear pulls a bad knock showed up in the rear engine.
> 
> ...



I think you're on the right track as far as diagnosing the sound. It definitely has that muted stuffed bearing sound to it. I had that once and it turned out to be a single cam retainer that was flipped around. It started to eat away at itself but fortunately I discovered it before it got too bad.

What are you using to log the sensors? It's been a while since I read through this thread so can't remember. Do you have a USB oscilloscope?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Here is a pic of the trigger log. 

Looks like the crank sensor is working but the spark is cutting out, blue lines are the crank sensor, and pink are spark events.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I can't see any pattern to either signal. Can you expand the crank trigger for a shorter period. Like just for 1 second?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Ill do some more trigger logs this afternoon with a higher baud rate setting, and check to see if I ever reved the front motor that high before. Im sure its not any settings in the ecu, as I put in the rear ecu which reved fine to 7500 redline. Also the crank sensor for the rear in the front does the same thing. I sure hope there is not a problem with the trigger wheel. Its probably something simple that I am overlooking.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

I'm not a VEMS user but you could make a rpm log. If at 5500 you get strange jumps in rpm readings you're most probably missing teeth on the 60-2 trigger wheel. During the engine assembly if you or someone else(in the mashine shop?) have ever put a bit careless the crankshaft on the solid ground (concrete) the triger wheel could be easily bended without visible signs . At high rpm this could make the ECU to lose teeth in the bended sector.
Just my 2c.


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## 98rzvr6 (Nov 12, 2005)

I had this same problem, mine was at 4k rpms, and it ended up being a bad trigger wheel. Mine was damaged so i ended up having to take the whole motor out and dissembling it and putting a new one on. It sounds like to me that you are having the same issue. Kevin and I tried everything to fix it software wise but noting worked. I tried a Brand new VW crank sensor, paid over 200 bucks for it and nothing changed. You can try to maybe hit the trigger wheel with a hammer and see how it works out, I tapped mine couple of times and it raised the rpms limit another 500-700 rpms but ultimately I had to take out the engine


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the help guys. 
I think I am going to agree that it is the trigger wheel.

I did some more trigger logs. Now after knowing what I am looking at its clear. The log shows 58 and 2 missing all the way up to 5500 then its all over the place. till the rpms come back down then it goes back to normal readings. With the crank sensor out I can spin the starter and it looks like the trigger wheel is wobbling. 

So both blocks have to come out for repairs. I might be able to drop the pan in and see if I can bend it back straight enough with a dial indicator..

Good times


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## 98rzvr6 (Nov 12, 2005)

Yeah dude sorry to tell ya the bad news, I was pissed when I had to pull mine. The game of modding cars :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Bent trigger wheel for sure







I went through it with a dial indicator and found 2 flat spots After some work with a prybar and flat head I got them pretty close. It still wobbles but the distance to the CPS is close.










I put it back together with my fingers crossed






Seems to be working fine now. This is not how stuff goes for me, ill take it though..

I will swap out the trigger wheel when I pull the motors for paint, Sure dont want a wobbling trigger wheel to cause any damage by throwing the balance off..

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Built something last week


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So its about time to spin this thing up with the eddy brake. From what I have seen so far, I will be eating my shoe about the rev potential of the 288's. Looking like 8k+ for sure.. I might have to go with a less aggressive cam profile. Maybe a custom grind solid 268 with a .460 lift will be the way to go.. with the tall gear sets and a 2.955 final I think a lower reving fatter torque curve would be better suited for this build.. 

214 in 4th is a little out of my league :facepalm:


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## mattgreeneva (Apr 5, 2006)

I haven't posted in here yet but I have been watching since about half way through and the things that come out of your brain amaze me. 

Keep up the good work. Have fun replacing those cams and lets get this thing down the street!


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> So its about time to spin this thing up with the eddy brake. From what I have seen so far, I will be eating my shoe about the rev potential of the 288's. Looking like 8k+ for sure.. I might have to go with a less aggressive cam profile. Maybe a custom grind solid 268 with a .460 lift will be the way to go.. with the tall gear sets and a 2.955 final I think a lower reving fatter torque curve would be better suited for this build..
> 
> 214 in 4th is a little out of my league :facepalm:


If it were me I would change the final drives instead of the cams.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Could go with a 22 inch tire to break it in.. I think the lower launch rpms of a 268 would be easier on the gear boxes. Not sure what to do just yet..


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

My advice is to use regular street tyres on the dyno for all purposes. An old rally slicks is also a good choise. If they spin when boost comes on, you just have to rise the ramp rate and try a bit differen strapping technique. Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4YlK-2er78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yna7OwyCdvw


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> Could go with a 22 inch tire to break it in.. I think the lower launch rpms of a 268 would be easier on the gear boxes. Not sure what to do just yet..


22's would be easier on everything-- would not be a bad way to shake down the car. This will do more to help preserve drive-train than anything. 

I don't think changing the cams will make a huge difference to the way the car launches-- the turbos you have will require a pretty aggressive 2-step regardless.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

My hat's off to you sir.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

:beer:opcorn:


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## VanKid (May 10, 2008)

I've been following this build for a while, and its my favorite one on vortex! When you get both motors dialed in it will be insanity. :beer:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys, its going to be an uphill battle for sure, its hard enough to get one setup to work right. Ill keep at it till it does.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I gues when the old shifter cables locked up it must ave forced the tooth on the gear selector shaft to rotate out of alighnment. This had me stumped for a couple days. Had to tap it back in line then tack welded it in place. Wonder why vw made it movable... Im sure this could easily be blamed on a shift fork being broke for a high dollar repair.. Anyone seen this happen before???























After some thought on the air shifter. The springs in the seq shift wasnt returning the air cylinder back to upright position fast enough for me. So I routed the bleed off pressure from the selonoid to the back side of the air cylinder so after I let go of the paddle shifter it uses air pressure to return it back to position. Then used a pressure regulator to bleed off the pressure from the back side in time for the next shift. Seems to work for now..
If it works ill redo it out of aluminum parts once I learn how not to melt it into a big pile of poop with a tig welder... I am the worst welder :facepalm:


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

A quick exhaust valve should be even snappier. Takes the directional valve flow out of the equation (on the exhaust side anyway). You may be up on that stuff, just using what you had on hand.


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

MK123GTi said:


> I gues when the old shifter cables locked up it must ave forced the tooth on the gear selector shaft to rotate out of alighnment. This had me stumped for a couple days. Had to tap it back in line then tack welded it in place. Wonder why vw made it movable... Im sure this could easily be blamed on a shift fork being broke for a high dollar repair.. Anyone seen this happen before???


I played around with a air shifter using the stock shifter setup. I suspected that kind of damage would happen if it kept upping the psi to get the system to shift properly. The actuators I ran were were only a 9/16" bore at 90psi(22lb of push and 19lb of pull). Yours must be really strong. What model of actuator and psi are you running?




MK123GTi said:


> After some thought on the air shifter. The springs in the seq shift wasnt returning the air cylinder back to upright position fast enough for me. So I routed the bleed off pressure from the selonoid to the back side of the air cylinder so after I let go of the paddle shifter it uses air pressure to return it back to position. Then used a pressure regulator to bleed off the pressure from the back side in time for the next shift.


Throw another solenoid in the mix and put it on the push port of the actuator. Then just code in a quick burst to push it back, and maybe even add in a down shift option.

These are the results of my setup. $45 for the arduino kit and a some solenoids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83yg6vvqDmE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPFJ9XJIUVg


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Dude thats bad ass. I didnt know there was a way to do it like that.. :thumbup:

The shift tooth moving wasnt done by the air shifter. When the cables melted on the downpipe they locked up.. 

Air shifter seems to work fine how it is for now.. I think its a 1 inch bore straight to my air compressor 110psi.. I get the co2 tank and regulator next week. Thinking 70 or 80 psi will do the trick.. Its a little overkill right now.. The dog box shifts much better at a decent rpm, only seems to lock up in when the motor is off and the clutch is in. 

The selonoid is wired straight from the paddle shifter via bosch 12V relay. The selonoid and the VEMS shift cut stay active as long as I hold the paddle.. Going to play around with the settings in the vems. Might cut fuel as well as spark during shift. Engine lets off a mean backfire between shifts. Might sound cool at the track with both engines going at once. be a good addition when the car is dialed and I feel like stuntin..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Would be awesome to run with the big dogs next year. Maybe in my dreams.. lol


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## mGrady159 (Aug 6, 2014)

im sure if you pursue it enough it would be possible especially with a build this nice you could get some serious recognition


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## VWmk3GTI (May 4, 2013)

subd


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

MK123GTi said:


> Would be awesome to run with the big dogs next year. Maybe in my dreams.. lol


that's crazy they can get 2000hp from a factory GTR block.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

mk1vw said:


> that's crazy they can get 2000hp from a factory GTR block.



I know its not even fair. 










I can come close with 2 aaa blocks. 5.8 v12 :what: Pretty confident my torque graph will around 1300+


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I got the car completely torn down. Paint and bodywork is next.. 

I noticed that the clutch is rubbing the inside of the bell housing. 

Is there supposed to be a spacer when doing a 02m 12V conversion?? Maybe my master is pushing the pressure plate in 2 far. Not sure whats up with that yet.
Anyone seen this with the twin discs???


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Seen it on every twin disc with 02a/j


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

that thing looks so bada_ss_ like that!

makes me really want to gut/tube out my wide body car!


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

MK123GTi said:


> Is there supposed to be a spacer when doing a 02m 12V conversion?? Maybe my master is pushing the pressure plate in 2 far. Not sure whats up with that yet.
> Anyone seen this with the twin discs???


The 24v 02Ms use a "cover plate" between the engine and trans. I don't think its thick enough to complete stop the rubbing, but it can't hurt.

02M301159F - http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-R32_MKIV--3.2/ES272445/


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

If you're at TX2k next year, I need a ride. Car is looking more and more badass man. :thumbup:


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

I fitted my 02M Fx850 to my 12v in 2011 . I haven't had any issues with mine, but it had a little wear just like yours..


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## 96vwgolfracer (Oct 20, 2006)

I am from VT and I would make a trip to you just to see thing in person. Amazing build you have here :beer::thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the input on the clutch issue guys.. :thumbup: Might try a spacer or something. not sure yet. 
Car is at the media blaster and all hot parts are out for ceramic... Been doing some work on the flares.. Made a 3d model of ones way oversized. I think I can make them out of thin fiberglass sheet then cut them way down to fit proper. They need to be about 5.5" deep in the rear lower portion where they will blend with the bumper, So I made the model 7" deem. They will be cut down to only about 3" deep at the top of the wheel. .. 

I had to grind and chip out all the undercoating from the wheel wells.. 2 days of hard labor.. "good times"














































trimmed out some more weight out of the rear










































































With these templates I can make the flares out of anything.










First ones are lowes fiberglass shower liner.. :laugh:



















I used a protractor to measure the angle off my laptop for the flares. 70 degrees 










If anything Ill chase this guy down and sell him a set..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

...


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Jo|\| said:


> The 24v 02Ms use a "cover plate" between the engine and trans. I don't think its thick enough to complete stop the rubbing, but it can't hurt.
> 
> 02M301159F - http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-R32_MKIV--3.2/ES272445/



Thanks for that part number, I ordered a set, Maybe 2 sandwiched together will solve the issue...



PapioGXL said:


> If you're at TX2k next year, I need a ride. Car is looking more and more badass man. :thumbup:


That will be my goal, however Im not sure Ill be ready for those guys by then.. 




96vwgolfracer said:


> I am from VT and I would make a trip to you just to see thing in person. Amazing build you have here :beer::thumbup:


Thats a long haul, but you are welcome to check it out anytime... I should be doing some test hits at bandamire late summer..


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

sweeeeet can t wait to see how the flares turn out


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## Rado.16vT (May 25, 2005)

On the clutch issue, just machine the flywheel slightly to give you more clearance where the cover mount onto.


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

wow, those fender flares look like something from group b rally.
regarding that nasty undercoating, a heat gun and putty knife seem to work pretty well.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Another twin engine car about to get into 8's 


Mickey garages car is cutting 1.3x 60ft nice

Launching on 26's in 2nd gear on stock o2m's :thumbup:






I am wishing I had the cage built for 7.50's.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Got it back today, clean pallet to work with. I have been thinking a lot about the color. I was thinking just vw surf green with a matte finish. Now I am leaning heavily towards House of Kolor's Planet green with several coats of clear. With the flares and trim in a matte black finish. I am planning on painting the carbon hatch and hood to match the rest of the car. However Im not against doing a rally stripe or something with a clear finish to reveal the carbon underneath. Roll cage matte black with green water tanks. Or green cage with black tanks. Decisions decisions. 

Looks like I have a few days next week to get started on the body work. 





































Planet green 











If anyone has a line on some decent mk3 2 door roof rail rain gutters, please let me know.. Would be nice to find a new set in some warehouse somewhere...

I found the left side here
http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_III--VR6_12v/ES304733/

but I cant seem to get the part number for the right

thanks


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## VWmk3GTI (May 4, 2013)

Did you check Germanautoparts.com ? they might have them


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

1h6853706bb41


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the part number, seems vw no longer has them available.. Looks like Ill have to find some used ones.. 














































Got a roll of lightweight fiberglass to make the flares from with some reinforced mat behind. Looks like it will work. 

Not quite sure how to finish off the backs just yet.. It took me all day to make the template for 1 flare very time consuming to say the least..


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

There is a build for this car on speed hunters, they used plastic barrels I believe to shape the arches...might be a good alternative for you

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/10/supra-powered-lancia-behind-build/

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/06/epic-lancia/


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

That car is awesome, I have seen the build thread before. I like those arches, but want mine to be on a 70 degree angle. 

I got the rears mocked up, still a long way from finished but I can get an idea how they will look.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So Im about to order a chute for the car. According to the chart I need the #430 http://www.stroudsafety.com/DragChutes.html

Can someone tell me If I need the spring or air launcher? Not sure when those will be necessary. I would think those would help more in the 1/8 mile. I will have an onboard airsystem so The air launcher would be cool. However If it never gets used would be unnecessary added weight (along with the billet valvecovers , glass sunroof, flat screens, and other stuff) 

Im thinking lime green chute  unless someone tells me not too... lol


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Go for the hot pink


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

In the UK, you need a chute over 150mph.
What's the criteria where you are?
Maybe save your money till you exceed the speed as you will get at least 1 run in.
Steve


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

Chute is needed over 150.

Go for the air launcher. Personally, I don't like the idea of a large spring at nut-height right in front of you as you pack the chute.

For the air chute, install a ball valve on the tank that makes your shifter and chute live at the same time, that way you never forget to turn it on.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks, I like the air launcher too, I think Ill hold off on the chute for a minuet, I just need the mounting brackets made before I send it to paint.. I cant decide on hot pink or lime green..


















































































New color choice for the week. GM Synergy green..










HOK Planet green 2nd choice










Surf green


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Cosmic green or HOK green that Gas Monkey garage painted that Model A.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Surf green


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

^^^ Agreed. The colors you are proposing look very similar but lose the OEM-cool of surf green.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Yea you guys do have a point, The surf green is pretty sweet. Plus the tail lights really go well with the oem color. Im just thinking I want something louder. Not sure what im going to do just yet. In the end I have to live with it. I just think If i go back to surf green I will wish I had gone with something with more pop. Like the cosmic green Kandy with Gold flake flames.. :thumbup:

Took many hours to get these fiberglass bumpers to look decent. "primed ready for paint" MY a**.. And for the carbon fiber hood and hatch, not much weight savings there, They are all fiberglass with a thin layer of carbon on top, I am trimming out a lot of dead weight on them. If you want a carbon "look" hood might as well just get some carbon sticker for your hood.


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

customized surf green :thumbup:


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

the new camaro green is really cool; a local guy painted his 70s civic that color and it looks bada_ss_!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I know the oem surf green has a certain cool factor. However, I have been looking at the same surf green gti for 15 years. I think I am ready for something different.. 

It is ready for paint on monday. I should get it back some time in august. 

Flares are done.. Got about 40 hours in these things. I had to allow room for rear end squat and tire stretch, otherwise I would have made them much tighter around the wheels, plus I can go with a 10 inch rim in the future, but I think they look ok for a drag car.. 

What do you guys think???


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## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

looks sick man cant wait to see this run


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

So I am pretty fired up today. These are the shortblocks I paid for.

Specifically wanted 2.9L pistons 83mm. 



















This Is what i got for $20k from IE

Front block had a hole in the coolant passage had to be repaired.
Front block trigger wheel wobbles like a bent wagon wheel

Rear block always seemed like there was a load on it and didnt rev properly. Then a rod bearing failed. I took it apart to find that the crank had tight spots and does not spin freely. I dropped in another crank and it spins fine. 











Rear block had a rod bearing failure

I primed both motors before start up. Never lost oil pressure






Ok here is the best one. I took a look at the pistons and find this 










Well I just measured the piston and its actually 82.22mm Maybe je mis labelled them or something. Or use 81mm blanks to make the 83mm bore ones.. 

81m is the je part number not the size.. Im an idiot

Glad I didnt talk to anyone over there oops


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

.... i have no words. 

I hope IE does by right you and send you two brand new blocks with what you ordered this time...


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

I'm sorry to say that but these days you can trust only on your ass, but never on 100%.


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

Holy hell.. 20k? I didn't even see heads included in that list. You got hosed anyways, but that's especially bad if there weren't even heads included.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Wow, I can't believe it. You can definitely see that rod is purple and got really hot. 

I have no words here and prefer not make conjecture, but I do know that you properly primed the oil pumps before first fire as it was stated/shown early on in this thread.


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## Jckl (Aug 29, 2004)

I believe even my JE 83.5 9:1 pistons are stamped 81m.. This is one of the reasons I assemble my own motors.. If something goes wrong I can say its my fault for a. doing it wrong or b. not catching it when I should have.

Have you talked to IE about it to see if they will do anything? My friend had a timing chain from ECS break at 14 miles and they did nothing in his favor.. In fact all they did was ignore him. Hopefully IE steps up to make it right since the assembled the motor and should have done the break in but who knows, they may argue lack of oil or something to get out of it. I would be curious to hear what happens.


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## mattgreeneva (Apr 5, 2006)

hmmm IE not being a precision part? My thread on their rods might be of interest to you. Conversation didnt really go anywhere. I stated my case and its pretty much a fact now. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7123810-Connecting-Rod-Discussion


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

mattgreeneva said:


> hmmm IE not being a precision part? My thread on their rods might be of interest to you. Conversation didnt really go anywhere. I stated my case and its pretty much a fact now.
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7123810-Connecting-Rod-Discussion


Any proof the ie and maxspeeding rods are the same thing? 

with some companies you are paying for better quality control rather than stuff that's not even checked between you and the suppliers/manufacturers. 

It's quite common regarding rods being made by one company and badged as others.


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## mattgreeneva (Apr 5, 2006)

Gary_808 said:


> Any proof the ie and maxspeeding rods are the same thing?
> 
> with some companies you are paying for better quality control rather than stuff that's not even checked between you and the suppliers/manufacturers.
> 
> It's quite common regarding rods being made by one company and badged as others.


I just quoted what I said in the other thread. If I had the money to go around buying everyones rods and comparing them I would. But if you or anyone else owns some IE rods I can take them to my machine shop and see if they are the same as the Rosten Rods. Which I assume they are.. they are the same price. Of if anyone owns IE rods and that box looks familiar to them.. that would be enough for me to be convinced



I can't prove the IE rods as I haven't put my hands on a set. However I can prove the $450 Rosten Rods and the $220 CX racing rods are the exact same. They even showed up in the exact same box.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

got the blocks cleaned and honed, all new calico bearings, replaced the crank with the tight spot, polished crank journals, 2 brand new crank trigger wheels. Try again. 

Should be back from paint in a week or so.


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## Dimmu (May 25, 2014)

Business son... Business..


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

looking good!


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

So, did you go with Cosmic Green in the end?



What did IE tell you? Care to elaborate?


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm guessing IE didn't own up to the "mix up" on your blocks...


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## mk2dev (Sep 14, 2012)

give us more of this beauty


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

The new rod bearings I bought from Ie were scratched up, and the calico coating was worn off in some spots. The main bearings I purchased were all block side bearings and 1 main cap bearing. looked as if they were mis packaged from calico, What IE said, However IE did overnight me the correct ones though. The replacement rod I got had the wrong bolts so I had to use the ones out of the damaged one. Not much more to say about the blocks, they are assembled and ready to go. Like was mentioned earlier in the thread, cant truly trust others work. I feel better knowing I inspected assembled and torqued everything. So if it fails I am to blame. 

Got everything back from paint. I am very happy with the paint and body work. I think it looks killer. Glad I went with the camaro green. I love it. Its not a sema show winner, but It looks great for my race car. 























































My helper is here for a couple weeks 











Still have a long way to go, I wont have any time to work on it till late august. My goal is to get it together by early october for the last couple track days.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

OMG i love it! I can't believe how fast the car was turned around in body and paint... my car took 6 months.


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

Will you let us know when you are taking it to the track, Bandimere I assume? I would love to see this in the flesh.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

.... is it October yet?  eace:


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

The paint looks great. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys, the paint shop got it done for me in great time.

Its going to be tough to get this thing to the track by october, I am going to give it my best shot. I need to find a parking lot or somewhere safe to give it a couple launch tests before I go to the track. 







































Lining up the flywheel was a fun puzzle for my helper, She got it all by herself after several tries. 










clutch showed some un even wear not sure what thats all about. 










I dont think the green hellas are a good fit anymore. 










I think the cover plate will give just the right amount of clearance for the clutch not to rub on the tranny. 




























I think these are a better fit. 


















































































SP cam sprockets are awesome. 










ceramic hot parts are looking good

Hoping to get this thing running next week.. :beer::beer:


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

beautiful..keep digging and im sure it will be done soon enough.
Steve


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

Was eyeing that SP water pump and SP cam gears myself, they look great! Insane build.:thumbup:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

This thing just keeps getting better!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys, Got it running today. Shooting to get it back on the rollers next week. Going to try to get a decent tune for the 22 psi springs and take it to the track and see what it does. 























































Using a kevlar heat shield for the shifter cables till I can fabricate new mounts that will clear the DP. 




























After a 20 minuet you tube video, I decided to give color sanding and polishing a go, the orange peel on the parts I painted was terrible. They look much better now.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Crazy


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## KentGTiKR (Apr 17, 2008)

Don't forget to put video :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Both right side cv boots failed on 4th gear pulls. Made a huge mess on the dyno.
Got them fixed now..










Boxed in the coolant piped in the cabin..


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## gnavs (Jun 9, 2006)

Oh my!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Jesus christ this car is soooo bad. Glad i've been watching your thread the whole time!


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

1broknrado said:


> Jesus christ this car is soooo bad. Glad i've been watching your thread the whole time!


:thumbup: I love the vids


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Sweet


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

just amazing.


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## DUBZAK (Oct 27, 2009)

Nice


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Sick!!


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

MK123GTi said:


> Both right side cv boots failed on 4th gear pulls. Made a huge mess on the dyno.
> Got them fixed now..
> 
> 
> ...


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## mattgreeneva (Apr 5, 2006)

I love this thread so much. This and selling parts is the only reason I get on vortex anymore


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys, I enjoy posting progress on the car and getting feedback from everyone. Kinda motivates me to get the car done. 

This week had some issues with the SP cam gears. Seems locking pin is cutting in half and spinning the sprocket with out the cam, loosening the cam bolt. Messed up the front motor tapped 2 exhaust and 2 intakes... No way was the cam bolt loose. I tightened them way down with loctite. 



















The pin wobbles loose and bores out the aluminum hole.
















































Pulled the valve cover off the rear motor, They were just about to fail. The cam bolts are tight, and the cam and sprocket are moving a few degrees. 






no damage to the rear, I put the stocks back on...


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Waiting on some new valves now


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Love this build car is beautifull hope sp is kicking something in for the failure glad you caught the rear one


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## bizybyker (May 25, 2005)

Only a single pin locked the sprocket to the housing? And on a aluminum housing to boot? What a crap design. There has gotta be F ton of shear stress on that pin. I hope they offer to help you with the dammage cost or at least refund you your money. And re-design their product obviously. :thumbdown:

Is the car still street legal? That would produce some fantastic street video hahaha and by street I obviously mean "closed track"..... Ohhi Aventador, oh you would like to race? Well I guess I could at least clean out the carbs a little (even if it is fuel injected you need to clean out the carbs, it's science don't argue).


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Yep Its street legal, Has all working lights and probably one of the safest cars on the road, crash wise. 

Ill send back the sprockets to SP. Im not looking for any free parts or anything, Its not the $100 in valves. Its the 8 hours I have to spend tearing down the motors busting up my knuckles. The sprockets might be fine on a stock 6k rev turbo, But not my car. Maybe they would be better with 2 solid steel pins, not a single hollow one, Its hollow and threaded so you can thread a bolt into it to remove it. SP makes some awesome parts, but I think these need some work, sucks I had to be the one.

By the way, I hit the launch control at 5k for the first time. With both motors going It sounds like machine gun fire.


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

we need launch video!!!


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

This car built is so damn sick! Keep up the good work, really looking forward seeing this car tear down the tracks!!


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

MK123GTi said:


> By the way, I hit the launch control at 5k for the first time. With both motors going It sounds like machine gun fire.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I was just assured that the cam gears are on several cars reving past 8k with 0 issues, SO I dont know what or how I loused them up, But If there is a way Im sure I did somewhere.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

MK123GTi said:


> I was just assured that the cam gears are on several cars reving past 8k with 0 issues, SO I dont know what or how I loused them up, But If there is a way Im sure I did somewhere.


Is it possible that you have spring coil bind with the high lift cams? I know the heads were built, but just a thought.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

sdezego said:


> Is it possible that you have spring coil bind with the high lift cams? I know the heads were built, but just a thought.




I actually emailed ferrea to find out what the limit is for the springs because I wanted to go with a higher lift cam. They said there was room to go a little bigger. The TT 288 are within the safe limit for the springs..


----------



## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

I want a anilag video as soon as it's back together


What are your anti lag settings I'm running lugtronic to mines at like 22 degrees make boost but no flames ha ha


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## oneslowvrt (Jan 5, 2015)

Why not use the stock cam gears? 
I'm running 298s with tt springs, there are a few tricks to get everything to work together.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Stock gears are in, they work fine.

Car is back at the roll cage shop, The front cross member of the rear engine, and the front cross member need reinforcing, I cracked the rear one on a burnout, I knew they looked weak, but was first told that the motor mount would break before his tubes. Well that broke first test.


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## machschnell (Mar 21, 2000)

Just a thought re: your cam pin shearing. Wonder if the design of your car in general with two high-hp motors driving different sets of wheels is going to create alot of parts failures like this. When one motor is pulling more than the other, there is going to be some of drag or "slop" in the drivetrain that's going to get hammered each time you shift, get in boost, lift off hard, or even just driving down the road lifting or accelerating here and there. Those two "axles" will never be in perfect sync. I would think the chain would fail first but they probably stretch more over time, but maybe that pin is the weak link. Based on how the hole is slightly enlarged I'd guess it's been working itself loose until the slop back and forth just sheared it. I don't think motors are used to seeing that kind of abuse.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

machschnell said:


> Just a thought re: your cam pin shearing. Wonder if the design of your car in general with two high-hp motors driving different sets of wheels is going to create alot of parts failures like this. When one motor is pulling more than the other, there is going to be some of drag or "slop" in the drivetrain that's going to get hammered each time you shift, get in boost, lift off hard, or even just driving down the road lifting or accelerating here and there. Those two "axles" will never be in perfect sync. I would think the chain would fail first but they probably stretch more over time, but maybe that pin is the weak link. Based on how the hole is slightly enlarged I'd guess it's been working itself loose until the slop back and forth just sheared it. I don't think motors are used to seeing that kind of abuse.


...and IMHO the OP shouldn't worry about anything described above. The "perfect synch" is not needed at all. Every engine will push the load it sees. In the single engined cars the engine load is not smooth at all. There are few 2-engined cars which perform flawlessly. The timing chain load/stretch has nothing to do with this. Yes, these VR6 engines see very often that kind of abuse. There are many VRT 12V 5-600+hp and even 7-800hp and up cars around revving at 8K+ rpms. There should be some mechanical flaw in the custom parts from the pictures. The guy must remain focused on his main task. Everything else is just first time experience with custom, not OEM parts. His attention to the details is more than enough and I don't see he is saving money on quality parts. 
That's my opinion.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

The first thing people ask me about the car is, How do you sync the motors? I dont have an answer. What do you mean sync the motors? The pavement I guess. What if one motor spins faster than the other? Hmm, so what. 

Im really going to mess with people when I run 2 different cam profiles in the motors to broaden the awd torque curve.. 24.5 tall tires in the rear with 268 or 276 cams, 288s in the front motor with 23" tires. Both motors about 500rpm difference might sound weird. 

Got the car back today, motor mount supports looking much better, launch test tomorrow. then maybe the track. Last day of the season...


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## Dimmu (May 25, 2014)

yikes, i almost bought those cam gears... almost. hope bill rectifies the situation :thumbup: everything is lookming good brotha. cant wait to see some good passes.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

The design for those gears is a copy of stock porsche 911 cam gears. They also use a hollow pin. Porsche doesn't use aluminum anywhere in their design though. Steel all the way through. Aluminum will deform around the steel pin and eventually create enough space for impact forces as seen here. A slack chain during startup will present variations of force against the pin... it's just a matter of time/cycles before they all fail. I would recall all examples and have steel replacements spun up for exchange asap. Mark up pricing on future sets for the additional cost in manufacturing.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well I didnt make it to the track today.. I got the car back last night from the chassis reinforcements, I still had a long list of things to do today before I made the trip. I first addressed the major rear end bump steer. I got that tackled with changing the rear tie rod angle and some spacers aligning the tierod with the control arm angles, then went to fastenall and got all grade 8 bolts and lock nuts for the rear end tie rods. then gave the car a good 4 wheel alignment. Then I had to make mounting brackets for the rear engine cover, followed by mounting the hood pins in the rad support. Each of these jobs too at least an hour longer than expected. then finished the firewall in the rear. Finally got that tightened up took in the lot and did a little launch, thought I was good to go.. Hooked up the trailer and started loading up, tools supplies other crap... Jacked the car up raised the front suspension to get it on the trailer. Put the computers on the charger, then went to load up the car, went to turn around in the lot, a loud screaching came from the front engine bay. Pulled it back in the shop and jacked it up.. Seems the front cross member shifted and was rubbing the power steering pulley.. WTF :banghead:.. Ok its now about 5 o clock. Pulled it back in the shop, after scratching my head for a minuet, I decided to just fix it and keep pressing. So I dropped it out and ground down the spot where it was rubbing, and put it back together. By now its pushing 6 o clock. 1.5 hour drive and last call at 8:45. I accepted the fact that I wasn't going to make it... Went to the store and got a 12 pack. Today was the last chance for me to test the car this year..  I gave it my best and it just wasnt in the cards this year. I am getting my ACL's fixed starting next wednsday so I wont be pushing in any clutches any time soon. Any track time will have to wait till spring.. Over the winter I plan to do some more tuning in the upper boost levels, and get the vems boost controllers and gear dependent boost settings working. Honestly Im glad to put it to rest for a while I am a little burned out.. lol


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

:thumbup: Car is amazing! Too bad you couldn't get it to the track would love to hear that thing launch!
I too like another poster was about to buy those cam gears, are you ditching them completely?


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## GRN6IX (Jan 2, 2003)

Bummer about missing the track time/tuning, but I'm sure it'll be ready for the Spring!


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

It was a noble effort. Good luck with your surgery and we will be looking forward to updates when you're good and ready. I bet a break is what you need because getting burnt out over a car is easily done and unnecessary. :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: <- Hope you drank all 12 last night :laugh:


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## MrCypherr (Jul 26, 2011)

Lurking this thread since the start. really nice car. Can't believe how it came out. Cant wait to see some runs!


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

.. I'm just hoping MK123GTI will just take his time and will get his car finished on 99% during the winter months. There is still a lot to do before the first strip. 
I hope he wont rush and will spend enough time on every detail!
Respect for all his work!


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## Lu VR6 (Aug 29, 2003)

Wow... You deserve a nice slow clap. I'm all worried about my syncro conversion. Not anymore, well done on this beast!


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## mattgreeneva (Apr 5, 2006)

Well since you asked. I can come up and run it down the strip for you if you would like


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## machschnell (Mar 21, 2000)

machschnell said:


> Just a thought re: your cam pin shearing. Wonder if the design of your car in general with two high-hp motors driving different sets of wheels is going to create alot of parts failures like this. When one motor is pulling more than the other, there is going to be some of drag or "slop" in the drivetrain that's going to get hammered each time you shift, get in boost, lift off hard, or even just driving down the road lifting or accelerating here and there. Those two "axles" will never be in perfect sync. I would think the chain would fail first but they probably stretch more over time, but maybe that pin is the weak link. Based on how the hole is slightly enlarged I'd guess it's been working itself loose until the slop back and forth just sheared it. I don't think motors are used to seeing that kind of abuse.


Not trying to take anything away from the effort here, which is tremendous. But this is an automotive forum where we talk about stuff like this. 

In trying to think of an example of this, how about a welded differential? Open diffs exist to let one wheel spin a bit faster than the other when turning. Power is applied and directed where it's needed (leaving aside the traction issues with open diffs). Welding it makes both spin at the same speed to get the power down better. When you turn what happens? The speed difference is usually "absorbed" by the tire scrubbing against the ground. If not, the car wants to go straight (similar to an LSD I would think, as the power is equal to both tires) but if it doesn't then the axles or drivetrain becomes the weak point. 

Tire scrub will be your friend here and I'm going to assume that will explain why this car *will* work pretty well in the 1/4 mile (short distance, straight line). But on a welded diff car, when there's lots of turning and changes in grip usually axles break. This would be similar to the power differential between your two motors. Given they both stay in same rpm range this should not be a problem, but I don't think most high hp motors behave the same all the time. Sure, the cylinder compression of each engine can also absorb some of the differential, but I guess that depends on how much again before bad things happen. so my thought was that cam pin was the weak point (maybe on purpose?).

Good luck in your recovery :thumbup:


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

Which input wire on you lugtronic edu is used for the shift cut, I'm trying to wire mine in for this weekend for some no lift shifting


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## QWKDTSN (Oct 24, 2006)

Subbed


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## CarNut84GTi (Oct 2, 2002)

machschnell said:


> Not trying to take anything away from the effort here, which is tremendous. But this is an automotive forum where we talk about stuff like this.
> 
> In trying to think of an example of this, how about a welded differential? Open diffs exist to let one wheel spin a bit faster than the other when turning. Power is applied and directed where it's needed (leaving aside the traction issues with open diffs). Welding it makes both spin at the same speed to get the power down better. When you turn what happens? The speed difference is usually "absorbed" by the tire scrubbing against the ground. If not, the car wants to go straight (similar to an LSD I would think, as the power is equal to both tires) but if it doesn't then the axles or drivetrain becomes the weak point.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure this would be quite the same. To me, and I'm no expert on dual engine setups like this, but one motor would simply be loaded more than the other, as if it were pushing the car uphill and the other was more flat. Just because one is pushing uphill doesn't mean it should fail. If you were cornering this would probably cause some odd handling characteristics, but in a straight line I would imagine the effect on the running of the car would be fairly minimal. To me differing loads is a lot different then more of a "locked stress" like a welded diff. Hopefully that makes some sense.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

CarNut84GTi said:


> I'm not sure this would be quite the same. To me, and I'm no expert on dual engine setups like this, but one motor would simply be loaded more than the other, as if it were pushing the car uphill and the other was more flat. Just because one is pushing uphill doesn't mean it should fail. If you were cornering this would probably cause some odd handling characteristics, but in a straight line I would imagine the effect on the running of the car would be fairly minimal. To me differing loads is a lot different then more of a "locked stress" like a welded diff. Hopefully that makes some sense.


I agree, I thought about this for a while.
Cut the car in half and pretend it only has one engine, regardless of 'how' its being loaded, it would be no different than a standard one engine single vehicle...they are just pushing the same mass together.
Loaded via another engine, towing something, going up/down hill, or carrying more weight, I don't think it would matter.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Ordered some 23in tires to run on the dyno in 4th gear lowers the top speed enough to run in 4th gear on my dyno. 

When I can get it to an awd dyno, going to test my theory of running different size tire front to back. 

With a linked 4wd dyno, going to run 24.5 in tall in the rear and 23inch tall in the front. The rear motor will always be running 500 rpms lower than the front. Shifting the front at 8k and the rear at 7.5k, (both motors same MPH) the front motor will be higher in the rpm range after the shift and will get into boost sooner. when the power is falling off at 8k the rear will be at 7.5k and have more torque at the upper end of the gear. I think this will lower peak torque but broaden the torque band over each gears mph range. 

What do you guys think.. 

24.5 tire rear motor









23 inch tire in the front










Knees are doing great, Thanks for the well wishes.. :thumbup:


Ready to get the boost controlers and speed sensors hooked up to the ecu's and turn it up a bit after the holidays. 

:biggrinsanta:


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

what was the point of the two different sized tires? I don't see any advantage to it


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Broader torque band.. Rpm drop is about2300 rpms between shifts. If peak hp is at 7500 and boost doest come in till 5500 car might bog after a shift till boost comes in.. Different size tires would put each motor in a different spot on the torque curve after an up shift.. Probably wont ever see the track like that but its worth a couple trys on the dyno to see if it works..


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I snapped a few pics the other day while its still all together. Taking bumpers and flares off for the winter dyno sessions. Might try to make it to tx2k16 if all goes well. Ill have to put in all the factory glass to run at that event.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Love the look, love the plate..
Steve


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## oneslowvrt (Jan 5, 2015)

I really hope you can make tx2k16. I will be there with my vr.


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## Gromel (May 12, 2012)

amazing stuff, i hope to see and hear this beast some day


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## ForsFedRado (Sep 28, 2005)

This thing is pretty slick!! Nice job.


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## QWKDTSN (Oct 24, 2006)

Updates?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

no full pass yet, spent most of the day waiting in the chassis inspection and tech lines. The car is good to 8.50. I got it up to 120 in 3rd gear. Taking baby steps for now. I just casually drove it down the track twice. It seems to go straight and stop ok. Next trip Ill try the double burn out and an good 1/8 pass. Its on the lowest boost setting about 20 psi, or 1000whp... :laugh:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

:thumbup: Outstanding! 

opcorn:


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

thats ****ing sweet man, i love the car :thumbup:

where'd you snag those control arm bushings from


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

MK3 LUV said:


> where'd you snag those control arm bushings from


They look like S.C.C.H. bearings to me.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

way to go man, getting the car together and able to pass tech is a big step!


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

Man I would have totally camped out at Bandimere to see this!! 

Why won't you tell us what area of Colorado you are in? And when you're going to the track?


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## Gromel (May 12, 2012)

GTi2OV said:


> Man I would have totally camped out at Bandimere to see this!!
> 
> Why won't you tell us what area of Colorado you are in? And when you're going to the track?


For real, I would blow off just about anything to see this in action


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Ill let you guys know when I can make a full pass. I went to the track wednsday. I made 1 pass. Basically did a burn out all first and second gear, Then I forgot that it was a sequential shifter and went from second right back to first gear. Tossed off a serpentine belt on the track. The motor popping off the rev limiter at 8k causes the belts to pop off. I am changing around the pulley system to fix the problem. Also going with a 10 lb spring in the wastegates. 20lb is way 2 much for first and second gear. 8.5 inch tires and my lack of seat time is just a spin fest. Going to back the power down to get some experience driving this "Rube Goldberg" race car. 







Future tires


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

A 1-2-1 on your first pass.... BARF!!!!!! Hope everything's ok. 

The new tire setup is crazy... I'm in for the carnage. :thumbup:


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

A lot of the Germans have modified their shifters with a lock out so you can't go back down only up once you get setup. Just a simple bar on a hinge that they flip over after the burn out and getting back down to first.

Also on some the force of the shifter springing it's self back to centre was making it come out of gear or shift down.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

thanks, That is some good info on the shifters. 

I got the belts to stay on for 2 passes. I turned down the revs to 7200 and with the new pulley setup they seem to be holding up.

Moving in the right direction with the car. I got some good feedback last 2 runs. Gave the launch control a try and I think its going to work with the clutch linelocks and the electric paddle launch button. I need to bump up the rpms on the rear motor, adjust the clutch balance bar, and change the jets in the clutchmaster flow valve to allow more slip on launch. Car is difficult and super fun to drive. I got a lot of positive feedback on the car, everyone is pretty much blown away when they see it. 

Remembered to hit record on the gopro this time. No special times yet just part throttle 11.34 at 130. Ill be going faster the more comfortably I get driving this thing. 







This run is with the electric launch, works just like a auto transbrake, When I get it dialed in It should make for some pretty consistent launches.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Glad to see you didn't hurt anything. Amazing build.

On a side note, you look lost in there. lol


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

That thing's badass, great work! :beer:


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## Gromel (May 12, 2012)

Any progress on this beast? opcorn:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks guys, 
Ha, I am a little lost in there, And I am about to add some more switches. 

Been working on the new throttle setup. Its ready to be installed,. I got 2 kms etc stand alone control units and got them to work of an r32 dbw accelerator pedal with hemi 80mm servo throttle bodies. I couldn't quite get the tps's to match up with the cheap lokar cables. This new setup should work awesome. I can switch between front and rear engines, doing separate burnouts without killing the other motor. Inching up to staging, its hard not to stall one of the motors because at low throttle they would be off by a few %. Now I should be able to tune them in perfect. 
Now when people ask me how I sync the motors I can point to the dual etc units.


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

Excellent so that's a kms standalone controller just for the dbw throttle? 

I've been looking for just this I had seen the fuel tech controller but there isn't much info on it, 
So was dubious about sinking the money on it! 
Kms products have far more support in Europe than fuel tech so should be a better option for me!


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Got the new etc up and running and it is awesome. works great. Please admire my welding skills. lol.. not pretty but it works. 














































First run with the new throttle setup, it was race car test night. Had a fresh coating of gorilla glue on the track. First time with launch control on and boost at 5lbs at around 5k I dumped the clutch with the smallest clutchmasters flow control jets on the clutch line. Snapped the output flange on the 02m like it was plastic. 

I dont think that launching with the flow control valve is going to work. I will be slipping the clutch manually from now on. 



















Anyone else seen the 02m's snap like this? 

I got the new part on the way. changed out the head gasket today, ever since the serp belt popped off and ran it without the WP for a run it would blow some white smoke after it was hot. So hopefully that will fix it. Also changing over to a smaller turbo housing to get boost to come sooner, I hope. 

I will have it back to the track in a week or so. I have got it up to 140 mph with a 2.8 sec 60 ft in the 1/4. just need to put together a good run


By the way, good thing about 2 drive terrains is that when 1 breaks you can still get back to the pits. I pulled to the left determined what happened, just turned off the front throttle body and drove it back in rwd.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Yep, had it happen on a customers car. MK6 GTI FWD 02Q making 340whp. Wasn't even running slicks, just some R-comps. Dropped the pressure a bit to get it too hook... it did. 

I was quite surprised to see this happen. 










Congrats on getting it back out. :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Jeebus said:


> Yep, had it happen on a customers car. MK6 GTI FWD 02Q making 340whp. Wasn't even running slicks, just some R-comps. Dropped the pressure a bit to get it too hook... it did.
> 
> I was quite surprised to see this happen.
> 
> Congrats on getting it back out. :thumbup:


Well I guess it happens often to find out. When I ordered my axles from dss a few years ago, I specifically rember frank telling me that the 108mm stock flanges will hold up fine. Now they make them rated for 1000hp. So I got them installed and headed back to the track. 











I made 3 solid 10.7x passes and nothing broke, overheated, or stalled and the serpentine belts stayed on the car. The new etc's are fking awesome. I didnt launch the car on boost just slipped the clutch manually. Next trip Ill turn on the launch controll and give it another try with the new flanges. Today I just wanted it not to break. Still on the 10lb wg springs. I think Im ready to turn it up a little next trip.. Very happy with the car today. :thumbup:

I even had a friend get it on video.


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## Lu VR6 (Aug 29, 2003)

Amazing! When you get it dialled in i'm flying to where ever you are to see this thing. Well done!


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)




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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Nice. Looks so effortless!


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## mattgreeneva (Apr 5, 2006)

I feel like I have been waiting forever for this video. Truly awesome work! :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

effortless is exactly right...lovin this thing


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## Cspence (Nov 23, 2008)

Awesome seeing this thing in action!...been off the forums forever and just thought to search for this build.:thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Got the boost by gear going last track day this year. Car and driver is way out of sync. I need some more major seat time. Got loose at 130 mph, of course I let off. Took me 4 years to build this contraption I dont want to push it. Next year its on. The car far exceeds the driver for sure. Next run I dumped the clutch and snapped the dss outer. Next year I will be working on my pre loading skills, as I am terrible at launching this thing. Still just a 10.6x car for now.Got some big plans for the off season. One thing I dont need is more power... Thinking 26x12 in the rear and 26x10 up front. Any how It is the worlds most powerful golf ever built by far... Dyno queen and fkn scary..


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> Got the boost by gear going last track day this year. Car and driver is way out of sync. I need some more major seat time. Got loose at 130 mph, of course I let off. Took me 4 years to build this contraption I dont want to push it. Next year its on. The car far exceeds the driver for sure. Next run I dumped the clutch and snapped the dss outer. Next year I will be working on my pre loading skills, as I am terrible at launching this thing. Still just a 10.6x car for now.Got some big plans for the off season. One thing I dont need is more power... Thinking 26x12 in the rear and 26x10 up front. Any how It is the worlds most powerful golf ever built by far... Dyno queen and fkn scary..


How come you're awkwardly trying to shift that thing when you have paddle shifters? Although I have no doubt it has the potential to make crazy power, there are a very good handful of Golfs making 1100+whp... some trapping 170+mph.


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## bc_awd_98 (Aug 30, 2011)

This build is insane!!!!!! I wanted to bump it so i can look at every page when i get time.


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## GRN6IX (Jan 2, 2003)

Jeebus said:


> How come you're awkwardly trying to shift that thing when you have paddle shifters? Although I have no doubt it has the potential to make crazy power, there are a very good handful of Golfs making 1100+whp... some trapping 170+mph.


Or just grabbing the closest knob. They are connected after all.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

It took me forever to get pics from photobucket to vortex. Photobucket is littered with pop ups and crap more than ever. I started an instagram account for the build. I will be posting progress pics, getting feedback, and other stuff there. Feel free to follow at 

R58vrt

















































going to build a set of these to fit the new Belak 15 x 11 wheels and 26 x 12 slicks on the back


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Followed  koch_studio


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

MK123GTi said:


> It took me forever to get pics from photobucket to vortex. Photobucket is littered with pop ups and crap more than ever. I started an instagram account for the build. I will be posting progress pics, getting feedback, and other stuff there.


Although IG makes it easy... just remember you're only reaching the followers you have. Meaning you're getting way more exposure by keeping an ongoing build thread as the power of google will allow people to find it. IG it just gets lost, in other words... don't abandon your build thread. 

Great work btw, that's a big step on the front end.  :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I will still post updates here, This forum is great for documenting the whole build. It is just time consuming to make good posts. I think ill just sign up for a paid photobucket account to make it easier. 

In the mean time I can just throw up random progress on the IG account as the work progresses. 

Ill post up here again when I start bending some pipe for the new front end. 

:thumbup:


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## MK3 LUV (Nov 23, 2012)

I havent used photobucket in years, as soon as i got my Flickr account i havent used anything since; maybe check them our before paying for photobucket

Car looks amazing as always :thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## Fastvolks (Apr 30, 2003)

Like were this is going :thumbup:


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## Vee-DubbVR6 (Jul 31, 2007)

Damn - just when you think it couldn't get any crazier. :thumbup::heart:


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

I have the same issues with Photobucket.
Build is always fun to watch. 3586R and 268s can't wait to hear what you think instead of the 42R and 288s.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Insane. Nicely done, good luck this season.


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## 7GIRLS3CUPS (Aug 11, 2016)

Funny seeing SpeedFactory stuff in a VW since they are heavy into honda racing, great parts and they are local to me. You probably already know but check out what @teamallrace has going on with their build if you have the chance.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...A-39A3-4C1B-B72D-0443133A7385_zpszkocjmpw.jpg

The one time that I didn't get off of it when I got some wheel hop, I cracked that factory weld holding the trans mount cup to the subframe.


Photobucket sucks man, you should really host somewhere else like Flickr or something.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

photobucket works much better on my desktop, 

Speed factory stuff is awesome. I find myself looking at all the sfwd hondas for ideas. 

The Goal is to be back on the track testing in late june,,


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Wow! I'm not exactly sure what is going on there, are they both water tanks for the AWICs?

Did you reinforce the engine mount cups? The factory welds are not too great there & I can't tell from your pics.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

One on the left is the fuel cell.

The transmission mounts have been cut off and re welded to to run the 02M gearbox in a mk 3. However I have never had any issues with the rear mounts. I will be adding an additional motor mount in the rear to stiffen up the engine to the chassis.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

I saw the pic where you cut the cup down. The welds holding that cup to the subframe is what broke on mine. This was the trans mount cup. I could not tell if you beefed those welds up or not. After mine broke, my dad helped me out with his 110v stick welder and we cleaned it up and stuck it back in place, and he put a bead around the outside & inside of the bottom of the cup and it has held ever since. I think that it's supposed to drain out if it gets wet so we left the opening at the lowest point.


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

Bumping this up because it deserves to stay on top, amazing build been lurking since the start...only thing i have a question about is are you basically running stock brakes? i understand you have a parachute but are you keeping stock so your wheel options are better? keep up the great work!!:thumbup:


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)




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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

photobucket just jacked all the pics for the thread, They dont allow 3rd party hosting anymore. unless you pay $40 a month. 

So much for that. 

latest pics on instagram r58vrt

sucks for all the lost pics on vortex..


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## 3L3M3NT (Jun 18, 2008)

Man is Photobucket messing up a $hit ton of peoples build threads, diy, etc and it's like they are holding everyone ransom.

I wasn't following super close, but I'd still pop in every couple of months to see how this amazing build was going and now it's just a let down since it's go the PB error message for each picture.:thumbdown:

It really sucks because there was no warning:banghead: so you could figure out if you wanted to pay or start looking for another site like others mentioned. I personally went with imgur.com I guess now I'll have to pop onto IG every now and again to see the progress you're making with this amazing machine.:beer:


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## dankvwguy (Jul 24, 2005)

hows she doing?


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

Just saw this on FB

https://www.facebook.com/1320Videos/videos/10156570248717112/


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## VWmk3GTI (May 4, 2013)

DarkSideGTI said:


> Just saw this on FB
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/1320Videos/videos/10156570248717112/


Good to see it's still alive :laugh:


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

cars looking better and better, been watching IG for updates but hope to see more tech info here soon.


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## 3L3M3NT (Jun 18, 2008)

MK123GTi said:


> photobucket just jacked all the pics for the thread, They dont allow 3rd party hosting anymore. unless you pay $40 a month.
> 
> So much for that.
> 
> ...


You'll have to follow him on Instagram, since he quit posting on here after Photobucket decided to get greedy and start charging people $400/year to host 3rd party links.

His Instagram is @r58vrt


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

if your having issues with photos of the bucket of photos went to craptown hit google. there are tons of ways to fix your browser for free. i can see all the photos in threads after loading an app into mozilla.


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## 3L3M3NT (Jun 18, 2008)

carsluTT said:


> if your having issues with photos of the bucket of photos went to craptown hit google. there are tons of ways to fix your browser for free. i can see all the photos in threads after loading an app into mozilla.


The problem isn't seeing them, it's using Photobucket to upload the pictures and then posting them here.

I can understand why he doesn't wanna take the time to setup a new account with another hosting company and try to figure out how everything works with the new host. Just my .02


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## Iku (Mar 11, 2009)

3L3M3NT said:


> The problem isn't seeing them, it's using Photobucket to upload the pictures and then posting them here.
> 
> I can understand why he doesn't wanna take the time to setup a new account with another hosting company and try to figure out how everything works with the new host. Just my .02


I get that too, but Imgur for example is not going anywhere, is free, is not a giant piece of **** like Photobucket has always been, and easy to use.


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## 3L3M3NT (Jun 18, 2008)

Iku said:


> I get that too, but Imgur for example is not going anywhere, is free, is not a giant piece of **** like Photobucket has always been, and easy to use.


I switched to imgur myself and find it quite easy to use. 

It just seems that people have moved on from VWVortex to posting on FB and IG, which sucks, because unless you know that persons IG account name or real name for FB you're screwed and you can't follow along. :thumbdown: Plus it makes it hard to follow their progress on either, since they may post about other stuff in their life on their IG account or you need to be their friend to see their page. 

I hope in time people will circle back to using the forums, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

3L3M3NT said:


> I hope in time people will circle back to using the forums, but I'm not holding my breath.


I agree x100.. I tried to use FB, since most of the Corrado guys went there. I can't stomach it. Useless, disjointed and waaay too millennial for me.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

3L3M3NT said:


> You'll have to follow him on Instagram, since he quit posting on here after Photobucket decided to get greedy and start charging people $400/year to host 3rd party links.
> 
> His Instagram is @r58vrt


That is just nuts... 

For 100GB of object storage on Amazon AWS (i.e. S3) and 200GB/month Data Out Transfer (data-in is free), the cost is $6.18/mo.

You have the freedom to to do as you choose with it. Choose what you use.


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## 3L3M3NT (Jun 18, 2008)

sdezego said:


> I agree x100.. I tried to use FB, since most of the Corrado guys went there. I can't stomach it. Useless, disjointed and waaay too millennial for me.


It's just a cluttered mess IMO, which like you mentioned makes it useless and how do you find anything on there if you wanna go back and reference it if you forgot to save that post?

Instead of having one thread for people to post pictures in you have multiple people wanting others to post pics of the side of their car, others wanna see what wheels they should run on their car, and that's just ONE GROUP!:banghead: 
You have to join a new group for every version of car that each manufacturer made, which is just STUPID, since I can think of 6 different variations of the VW MKIV chassis(R32, GLI, GTI, 337, 20TH, Wagon) and that's just chassis's. Then you have 5 different engine configurations for the MKIV chassis(2.8L VR6, 3.2l VR6, 2.0L, 1.8T, TDI) 
So just to follow the mkiv chassis you have to be apart of like 5 or 6 groups to try and get your information or just follow along to see what people are doing with their cars.

Hopefully the millenials will grow up and realize there's an easier way to share information on their cars. :thumbup: Fingers crossed.opcorn:



sdezego said:


> That is just nuts...
> 
> For 100GB of object storage on Amazon AWS (i.e. S3) and 200GB/month Data Out Transfer (data-in is free), the cost is $6.18/mo.
> 
> You have the freedom to to do as you choose with it. Choose what you use.


Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay $400/year when there are waayyy better options out there and heck, some are even free! :thumbup:


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## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

1320Video feature on the utube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzKpFHEqO4w


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## 3L3M3NT (Jun 18, 2008)

Nice find :thumbup: I saw on IG that 1320 was filming his car. I just didn't realize they were making his car the main car of the episode. Either way, very cool!


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