# APR Presents Stage 4 Development!



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

We've been following the recent build threads regarding more power out of the 2.0T FSI with larger turbochargers than available in currently offered production turbo upgrade kits, water/methanol injection to avoid the knock the limit, etc. and have often wondered how reliable and drivable these kits will be with some of the options the custom build guys have available.
That being said, our engineers have set out to bring a path of progression beyond APR's world renowned Stage 3 turbocharger upgrade systems.








Enter the APR Stage 4
APR's Engineering Team is currently involved in a development exercise to bring enthusiasts safe, reliable high hp applications that operate on pump fuel with no need for additional lag from increasing the size of the turbo. We have begun with our standard Stage 3 turbocharger system and have looked to the bottom end of the engine for more opportunity.
Knowing that we are knock limited on pump fuel, injector limited by availability and boost pressure limited by the ecu, we have set out to develop a program for Stage 3 owner's to be able to bring their OEM quality turbocharger kits to the next benchmark of power level, 400+!








I would like to begin this thread to document the R&D for all to see and to relay the results of our experiment. Its too soon to call it but it is our hope that this exercise will result in a new calibration available to Stage 3 owner's that wish to lower compression and take further advantage of the relatively mild use of their APR Stage 3 turbocharger.
Bob G. get in here!!
To get everyone up to speed as to where we currently are:
Chris Gigon's MK5 2006 GTI


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

cant wait 2 see this come to fruition...i wonder what JR will run in the quarter now


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! (08 passat turbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *08 passat turbo* »_cant wait 2 see this come to fruition...i wonder what JR will run in the quarter now 









He'll be going after those 500whp cars that seemed to have disappeared as of late.


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

Finally http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Hope the DSG get squeezed in the development
All the best











_Modified by EL_3grab at 8:18 AM 10-7-2009_


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

2 outts the top 3 mkv's are APR tuned...
_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_








He'll be going after those 500whp cars that seemed to have disappeared as of late.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! (08 passat turbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *08 passat turbo* »_2 outts the top 3 mkv's are APR tuned...

I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad......








Love the Halloween emoticons btw.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

so, this is basically stage 3 but with a built bottom end?
nice.


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad......








Love the Halloween emoticons btw.

One new "non apr" one should be coming before the winter officially hits!!! (after i get that revo virus out of my ecu... )








SO IN FOR MORE INFO ON THIS! LP SIDE SOLUTION PAIRED WITH A BIGGER TURBO =










_Modified by yvrnycracer at 5:27 PM 10-6-2009_


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*

Keith, I really don't mean for this to sound like a troll post, and I'm happy for your furthering development of your turbo system; but your image states "APR Rifle Drilled Rods".... I am seeing what appears to be a set of off the shelf rifle drilled Integrated Engineering rods....
Is this like the "APR Sway Bars" that are red H-Sport pieces?


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## INYNN (Apr 14, 2008)

*Stage 4 Question*

Keith,
Is this going to be a kit once everything is said and done and tested? 
Will it be following the same idea as the 1.8T lineup where you guys have the Stage 3, Stage 3+ as seen here: http://goapr.com/products/?vehicle=Golf_MKIV
Will the Stage 4 be a product you can eventually walk into an APR Dealer and say gimmy! Whats the deal here? 
Thanks and goodluck, I like the work you guys do. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Keith, I really don't mean for this to sound like a troll post, and I'm happy for you...?

Thank you Kanye West. The Spec sheet above denotes his previous build specs, and not the new APR stage IV setup. It's actually a spec sheet from the SEMA GTI, which had all the same modifications except for wheels and rods. Thank you for pointing that out though. I'll surely update it!


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:48 PM 10-6-2009_


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Thank you Kanye West. The Spec sheet above denotes his previous build specs, and not the new APR stage IV setup. It's actually a spec sheet from the SEMA GTI, which had all the same modifications excep for wheels and rods. Thank you for pointing that out though. I'll surely update it!

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:47 PM 10-6-2009_

i laughed so hard my dog jumped up from her sleep and started barking hahahaha


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Stage 4 Question (INYNN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *INYNN* »_Keith,
Is this going to be a kit once everything is said and done and tested? 

You betcha! This will be offered to all customers.


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## GLIFUN08 (Jun 12, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Thank you Kanye West. The Spec sheet above denotes his previous build specs, and not the new APR stage IV setup. It's actually a spec sheet from the SEMA GTI, which had all the same modifications except for wheels and rods. Thank you for pointing that out though. I'll surely update it!

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:48 PM 10-6-2009_

ROFLMAO!


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Thank you Kanye West. 


No problem Taylor... Since this is your first time getting some recognition at this level, I wanted to make sure it was a memorable one


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_








He'll be going after those 500whp cars that seemed to have disappeared as of late. 


I guess you can consider my car retired on that list, the engine in it is no longer FSI







I will only be running 4 bar of fuel pressure in my fuel rail








This is cool though, i can't wait for one of our customers to do this and take me for a ride!!! or maybe i will have to stop by redline some time soon and JR can show me what its got


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## [email protected] (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

Actually Keith we will be going after the number one position with the new Pistons! Quick spool = Good ET's
car Hooks great with the new tight suspension

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









Were shooting for a Sub 11 second pass before we retire the MKV and move to the MKVI


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## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! (08 passat turbo)*

i love the spec sheet showing "apr rifle drilled rods"


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Here comes the trolls!


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## sciblades (Oct 21, 2008)

ahh every ones always a critic, although i am glad we all love ie rods








can we please see pictures of the quad setup for the car, how much will just the catback on that run and what does it sound like? any rebates for current tbe owners?


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! (1.8t67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_i love the spec sheet showing "apr rifle drilled rods"


uhhh... this was addressed in earlier posts...








I really hope this thread doesn't go down the crapper... would love to see what can be done here!

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

uh ho.
cats out the bag.
did ed finish the rest of the stuff up for your car?

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I guess you can consider my car retired on that list, the engine in it is no longer FSI







I will only be running 4 bar of fuel pressure in my fuel rail








This is cool though, i can't wait for one of our customers to do this and take me for a ride!!! or maybe i will have to stop by redline some time soon and JR can show me what its got


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

ethanol....


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (sciblades)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciblades* »_
can we please see pictures of the quad setup for the car, how much will just the catback on that run and what does it sound like? any rebates for current tbe owners?

Here's our product page for the quad tip catback:
http://www.goapr.com/products/....html
It's currently on sale for $1,043.10
Here's a video sound clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGo2lASB2qU
Here's photos:


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Thank you Kanye West. The Spec sheet above denotes his previous build specs, and not the new APR stage IV setup. It's actually a spec sheet from the SEMA GTI, which had all the same modifications except for wheels and rods. Thank you for pointing that out though. I'll surely update it!




_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No problem Taylor... Since this is your first time getting some recognition at this level, I wanted to make sure it was a memorable one










Classic. I love the friendly fire guys. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to APR for stepping their game up. What company are you guys using for your pistons?


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## de nada (Oct 7, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Are any of these items parts that were used in the cars you were caught cheating with at Grand Am?
Just wondering if that was what helped your cars pull on GS cars since a stock GTI being run within the rules could never do such a thing...








Looking forward to seeing what this package can do....


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (de nada)*


_Quote, originally posted by *de nada* »_Are any of these items parts that were used in the cars you were caught cheating with at Grand Am?
Just wondering if that was what helped your cars pull on GS cars since a stock GTI being run within the rules could never do such a thing...








Looking forward to seeing what this package can do....

?
why would a stock car be running in a race?
u've totally lost me and have no evidence or support to back up your claims.
dont go flinging poop without the info to back it up.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_u've totally lost me and have no evidence or support to back up your claims.

http://www.theautochannel.com/....html


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## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (de nada)*


_Quote, originally posted by *de nada* »_Are any of these items parts that were used in the cars you were caught cheating with at Grand Am?
Just wondering if that was what helped your cars pull on GS cars since a stock GTI being run within the rules could never do such a thing...








Looking forward to seeing what this package can do....

I believe that had to do with a removal of "certain" parts and not illegal parts installed.


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## [email protected] (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

looks good keith, now im gonna have to come visit. Is the test track done?


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

so what whp are we looking at??


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

On a previous build we put down 436whp (uncorrected) with only a modest advancement to timing and no alteration of production stage III boost pressure. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PhTu3Cl5sw



_Modified by [email protected] at 9:11 AM 10-7-2009_


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! (1.8t67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_i love the spec sheet showing "apr rifle drilled rods"


It's ok. I get all excited at posts like these sometimes too and forget to read what its really about. The reference to the "APR Rifle Drilled Rods" are in Chris' current spec sheet prior to Stage 4 development. The picture of the rods and pistons are what is going in his car for Stage 4. We developed those original rods a long time ago prior to anything being available for 2.0T's for Stage 3 100 oct development. Due to expense, the original APR rods were never really brought to market. Due to our desire to test and develop around more popular internal options, we are fitting his car with some I.E.'s for Stage 4 development.


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:30 AM 10-7-2009_


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## MFT-Motorsport (May 14, 2007)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

Thats what we need!







goAPR....








Our Show car is ready for the next Upgrade! 
http://www.goapr.de/projekte_pirelli.html


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

so technically more than 436whp. man i know what im aming for chritmas.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
http://www.theautochannel.com/....html

oh snap. that sux.
btw, that pic above me with the yellow GTI is awesome. **** looks beefy.


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*

Looks good Keith ! I believe we have a new set of pistons / rods on the way for the GTI, but we will not be using an IE rod, take the engine apart good excuse to upgrade ! 
Are you guys installing the coated pistons ? Or the off the shelf units. I want to say Gigon told me they were the coated version


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Looks good Keith ! I believe we have a new set of pistons / rods on the way for the GTI, but we will not be using an IE rod, take the engine apart good excuse to upgrade ! 
Are you guys installing the coated pistons ? Or the off the shelf units. I want to say Gigon told me they were the coated version 































To be honest I am not certain. I know the skirts are coated but don't remember if we did the domes or not.


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

so technically more than 436whp?? man i know what im aming for christmas.


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## [email protected] (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
To be honest I am not certain. I know the skirts are coated but don't remember if we did the domes or not.

Just the Skirts are coated!

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Enter the APR Stage 4
Knowing that we are knock limited on pump fuel, injector limited by availability and boost pressure limited by the ecu, we have set out to develop a program for Stage 3 owner's to be able to bring their OEM quality turbocharger kits to the next benchmark of power level, 400+!








Bob G. get in here!! 

I have to say Ive been real happy with my 93 pump + straight water on 100 octane program = under 3 degrees timing pull and that's NOT steady its just a blip.
Ive run it this way for 3.5K miles straight without hic-up and BTW on stock rods







. 
I have not had it on the rollers yet but the way it pulls hard now it feels around 375+whp.
It took along time to get the car sorted out where its at now little unsure if I want to touch it because its running so well LOL.
Maybe turn it into a AWD J-20 Stage 4 winter project







Bob.G



_Modified by rracerguy717 at 8:45 AM 10-10-2009_


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Bob, I'd love to see what you put down with just straight 93 and then 93/wm as a comparison. 
BTW, It's time to do the upgrade! If you're going to do rods, get the pistons, get the newer files, **** your pants.


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## TGZ (Jul 7, 2003)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Maybe turn it into a AWD J-20 Stage 4 winter project







Bob.G


I want to know more about this AWD project.....


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

finally !!


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## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

Keith.... Im here. Just wanted to let you know that I am here. Just let me know where, when, how, why and how much and I am in.







After almost 2 years on stg3, I am finally getting used to the power.


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

Interesting


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## INYNN (Apr 14, 2008)

So when can we expect it to show up on the website with pics/details of exactly what the kit is all about Keith?
This is awesome! I cant wait!


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Probably in the next couple weeks or so we'll start to post information.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

I'll be waiting for some more info


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## DM_MKV (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (asylum)*

x2


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## Uberjay (Sep 22, 2008)

damn, im only stage 1


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## ryangti (Oct 5, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

induktion...ima let you finish ima let you finish...but APR builds the best cars in the world, ever. hahhhahahaaa.


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## GTIBOIL (Jan 24, 2007)

so if i understand, the stage 4 isnt a larger turbo but its a built motor maxing out a gt28?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Essentially you are correct, except the GT2871 still is not maxed out, which is pretty funny considering everyone thinks it's so small. Silly kids.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Essentially you are correct, except the GT2871 still is not maxed out, which is pretty funny considering everyone thinks it's so small. Silly kids.










Yeah, the 2871R is good to what, 28-32psi in its efficiency on the 2.0T?


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## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

So is there a fuel system upgrade included with the stage 4 kits?


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (GTI2Slow)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTI2Slow* »_So is there a fuel system upgrade included with the stage 4 kits?

At this point the only thing that I KNOW will be included is new software.
As we find out more as the release approaches I will update the thread straight away!


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
At this point the only thing that I KNOW will be included is new software.
As we find out more as the release approaches I will update the thread straight away!

how long?


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## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yeah, the 2871R is good to what, 28-32psi in its efficiency on the 2.0T?

So when is APR gunna bring out those 28-32 psi







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (wazzap1101)*

Exactly
Would you guys at least attempts some higher boost "if possible"


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## Chipless (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: APR Presents Stage 4 Development! ([email protected])*

I can't wait to hear more guys. Been waiting for something like this for a while. Count on at least one Stage 4 order being placed from Colorado http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_Exactly
Would you guys at least attempts some higher boost "if possible"









Apr has never run those boost levels in any of there production kits except the 1.8T 225 stage 3+ KIT. They would have to re-tune and calibrate for higher MAP sensor to do it correctly thetas alot of work its POSSIBLE they would do this later down the road for the new R-20 stage 3 upgrade because its a stronger motor and it can take more stress when it hits the US shores. Honestly with lower c/r you can run a more timing and get ALOT more power and still keep the EGT safer than throwing a ton of boost at it IMO







Bob.G


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## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*

I'm really more excited about all this for the gti-r, I think I'm done with fwd.


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Apr has never run those boost levels in any of there production kits except the 1.8T 225 stage 3+ KIT. They would have to re-tune and calibrate for higher MAP sensor to do it correctly thetas alot of work its POSSIBLE they would do this later down the road for the new R-20 stage 3 upgrade because its a stronger motor and it can take more stress when it hits the US shores. Honestly with lower c/r you can run a more timing and get ALOT more power and still keep the EGT safer than throwing a ton of boost at it IMO







Bob.G


I think with stage4, they should throw all the available headroom within the safe limit, no need for Stage 5








If I'm going to built the motor, I need to know that I'm getting all there is from my kit


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## GTIBOIL (Jan 24, 2007)

im curious as to what the price difference from this and stage 3 would be...


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_

If I'm going to built the motor, I need to know that I'm getting all there is from my kit









No matter what your going to run out of injector around 425-450ish whp range that pretty stout on low boost with pump fuel . 
If your goals are above those power levels your looking for "one off "project , IMO you wont see that in a APR "kit " plus any ways someone needs to come out with affordable BT DI injectors that can flow more and still be able to idle and not misfire.







Bob.G


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## broccliman (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
No matter what your going to run out of injector around 425-450ish whp range that pretty stout on low boost with pump fuel . 
If your goals are above those power levels your looking for "one off "project , IMO you wont see that in a APR "kit " plus any ways someone needs to come out with affordable BT DI injectors that can flow more and still be able to idle and not misfire.







Bob.G

thanks for all of the great posts Bob... ive been meaning to tell you that i always learn something from your replies, a lot of the time i end up on wikipedia further reading up on something you said http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## HPA-GTII (Oct 22, 2009)

subscribe.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (wazzap1101)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wazzap1101* »_
So when is APR gunna bring out those 28-32 psi







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I don't know. I've been driving some Stage 3's at those higher boost levels and I am not convinced anyone really wants it. I mean, I've driven other "custom bt's" that run off the oem map sensor and I think it feels terrible everywhere but WOT.
There is no way around part throttle operation that hits big psi. It makes the car very strange during normal acceleration. Asking for 100% load at 45% throttle with 28 psi really sucks, it just does. Should be asking for more like 10 psi in that situation.
180% load at 99% throttle and 28 psi feels great though.








If you could turn it on an off quickly and easily during daily driving it would be better but this sounds like a high boost/low boost setting which is simply ghetto as all hell. You need the rest of the mapping adjusted too, not just boost pressure. timing, afr, etc. is not similar at all at say 17 psi and then 28 psi. So, that kills a greddy profec method of correcting the part throttle issues from running off the OEM map sensor.
Stage 4 is supposed to more aggressive than ever before though.
How many of you guys have experienced the issue with boost over the map and what are your feelings about the part throttle operation?


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Doesn't the S3/ED30 map sensor allows 2 bar of pressure (29 psi) ?
Why talking of over the map boost ?


_Modified by EL_3grab at 12:43 AM 10-23-2009_


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## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (EL_3grab)*

Yes it does... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_Doesn't the S3/ED30 map sensor allows 2 bar of pressure (29 psi) ?
Why talking of over the map boost ?


Because the APR stage 4 we are talking about in this thread is for the standard vw/audi 2L FSI turbo engine which DOSNT come with a 2 bar map sensor .
Like I said earlier in this thread MAYBE APR's Stage 3 or 3+ upgrade kit for the S3 engine in the up coming R-20 possible could run higher boost levels .







Bob.G


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Because the APR stage 4 we are talking about in this thread is for the standard vw/audi 2L FSI turbo engine which DOSNT come with a 2 bar map sensor .
Like I said earlier in this thread MAYBE APR's Stage 3 or 3+ upgrade kit for the S3 engine in the up coming R-20 possible could run higher boost levels .







Bob.G


Com'on, it's a $70 part, doing stg4 would at least cost the normal consumer around $1500 in parts and labor


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_
Com'on, it's a $70 part, doing stg4 would at least cost the normal consumer around $1500 in parts and labor


The point is OEM uses a 2 bar MAP sensor in S3 engine for a reason the block and cylinder head is stronger with better materials to get rid of heat and built for those higher boost levels .







Bob.G
P.S. Get the APR 100 octane tune for your car which increases power by increasing timing NOT boost and you will see what I mean its night and day difference http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
The point is OEM uses a 2 bar MAP sensor in S3 engine for a reason the block and cylinder head is stronger with better materials to get rid of heat and built for those higher boost levels .







Bob.G
P.S. Get the APR 100 octane tune for your car which increases power by increasing timing NOT boost and you will see what I mean its night and day difference http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .


Well, aren't we running close to double the OE power intended for this engine


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## GTiWV (Jul 31, 2008)

need.more.info.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*FV-QR*

any updates??


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (asylum)*


_Quote, originally posted by *asylum* »_any updates??

I believe this is beta stage 4 kit on Chris @APR GTI in link below . 
Im sure if anyone was at the BBQ the power figures where posted on that product easel on the drivers front of the car LOL.







Bob.G

http://www.goapr.com/media/pho...Large/


----------



## bacardicj151 (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*

Dead link


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bacardicj151)*

Must of removed it once they saw the vortex found out about it.


----------



## Dangler (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

A bit much....quad tip on a small car, looks cluttered and not so clean
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: (Dangler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dangler* »_A bit much....quad tip on a small car, looks cluttered and not so clean
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 



negative.


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (Murder'd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Murder’d* »_
negative.

True. I like it better than the R32 duals. It looks much better spread out.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
True. I like it better than the R32 duals. It looks much better spread out.

It would look even bettter spread out on a GLI







Bob.G


----------



## GTiWV (Jul 31, 2008)

we need more info!


----------



## YoungMedic (Mar 22, 2006)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

I talked to Chris at the BBQ he told me they were using lower compression and working on a tune, however they had a crank pulley hardware problem and were still working with the tune for the CR.
the impression i got was this is still very much in the development phase and are still sorting out the overall specifics of the package


_Modified by YoungMedic at 4:52 PM 11-2-2009_


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

any updates?? im waiting to get new pistons


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

We are currently in the process of building and tuning another engine and are exploring a few more options.


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

Ok let me know if you need a euro spec car to work on







looks like I might have piston problems anyway so engine needs to be taken apart at some point soon.
I am keen to know the outcome of this development as I believe this is the only viable option for increased power output in this country and europe, due to the prohibitive costs of race fuel over here. this means extra power from the race fuel program is a non starter really.
I would like to know if you agree with this or not?
I know how you guys always say the GT2871R is the perfect turbo for this car and the boost shouldnt be increased, but its shame to see lots of other guys in europe making big power with there GT30 turbo's with excellent power curves with good logging figures etc. anyway, keep up the good work.
I look forward to your plans.
Dan


_Modified by DanGB at 2:27 AM 11-17-2009_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (DanGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanGB* »_
I am keen to know the outcome of this development as I believe this is the only viable option for increased power output in this country and europe, due to the prohibitive costs of race fuel over here. this means extra power from the race fuel program is a non starter really.
I would like to know if you agree with this or not?

 
Do they have 100 octane race gas program for euro cars? 
If so im running Labonte progressive W/M controller with Stage 3 APR 100 race gas file with 93 pump fuel and just spraying straight water in my W/M controller. If you need to raise the octane level just add some heet dry gas additive to raise the octane ore ww fluid that has higher alki content .Ive been daily driving it this way for 6K miles and its running flawless .







Bob.G


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

Yes I have a 104 *RON* race gas file. Ive tried it with the W/M and im getting mixed results. still get massive CF's, so decided not to persue that avenue.


----------



## CupraK1 (Aug 15, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanGB* »_Yes I have a 104 *RON* race gas file. Ive tried it with the W/M and im getting mixed results. still get massive CF's, so decided not to persue that avenue.


YAY dan







that would be insanse on yours. 
Cheers
Wayne


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (DanGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanGB* »_but its shame to see lots of other guys in europe making big power with there GT30 turbo's with excellent power curves with good logging figures etc. 

With these high boost kits, what sort of timing advance are they seeing at redline (on pump fuel - no water/meth). Any EGT Data? I said this in another thread but in terms of EGT's, in your opinion, how hot is too hot? (And that is not a loaded question, I'm simply curious how the community, or well, an APR stage III customer feels).


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

To be honest im not sure of the details, but its all rather academic, as ive got the stage 3 kit now so im just looking to improve this, not change my kit, and I do not believe APR will up the boost levels, thats not what they stand for is it? So, looking forward to persuing other methods, or whatever APR have to offer me.


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

PS; would you actually be interested in seeing these figures if I got hold of them or are you just playing devils advocate?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (DanGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanGB* »_PS; would you actually be interested in seeing these figures if I got hold of them or are you just playing devils advocate?

I've seen many results before (both from in house testing and other means) but sure, it cant hurt.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
in terms of EGT's, in your opinion, how hot is too hot? 

I think this should be fine.








LMAO.


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: (Krieger)*

dam i know is not good but that pic looks hot lol. never seen this in real person though.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (DanGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanGB* »_Yes I have a 104 *RON* race gas file. Ive tried it with the W/M and im getting mixed results. still get massive CF's, so decided not to persue that avenue.

Dan It maybe because of differences in HARDWARE in the US and EURO engine or differences in quality of fuel . 
Im having great results running 93 in the tank + straight water in my progressive Labonte W/M controller and only seeing 2-3 degrees of timing pull in only a few cylinders , that's just a blip NOT sustain throughout the rpm range and that was in 90 degree ambient temp so IMO its very safe tune with my results .







Bob.G


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Dan It maybe because of differences in HARDWARE in the US and EURO engine or differences in quality of fuel . 
Im having great results running 93 in the tank + straight water in my progressive Labonte W/M controller and only seeing 2-3 degrees of timing pull in only a few cylinders , that's just a blip NOT sustain throughout the rpm range and that was in 90 degree ambient temp so IMO its very safe tune with my results .







Bob.G



bob, you are running 100% water?


----------



## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

*Re: (Runin2Rich4FSi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Runin2Rich4FSi* »_
bob, you are running 100% water? 


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Do they have 100 octane race gas program for euro cars? 
If so im running Labonte progressive W/M controller with Stage 3 APR 100 race gas file with 93 pump fuel and *just spraying straight water *in my W/M controller. If you need to raise the octane level just add some heet dry gas additive to raise the octane ore ww fluid that has higher alki content .Ive been daily driving it this way for 6K miles and its running flawless .







Bob.G


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Runin2Rich4FSi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Runin2Rich4FSi* »_
bob, you are running 100% water? 

Yes straight distilled water , just recently add some winterized WW fluid so the water in the tank doesn't freeze. The water mist cools the combustion chamber so it doesn't promote knock , If I or someone wanted to raise octane level then you would want to run meth or alki concentrate IMO. The thing then is you have to worry about it breaking down the plastic TB butterfly in the TB making it fail, you would then need to make aluminum butterfly.







Bob.G


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Yes straight distilled water , just recently add some winterized WW fluid so the water in the tank doesn't freeze. The water mist cools the combustion chamber so it doesn't promote knock , If I or someone wanted to raise octane level then you would want to run meth or alki concentrate IMO. The thing then is you have to worry about it breaking down the plastic TB butterfly in the TB making it fail, you would then need to make aluminum butterfly.







Bob.G

I thought it had been discussed that methanol does nothing to the butterfly and thats not what fails on them? More so the meth causing internal failures in the TB.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (loudgli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *loudgli* »_
I thought it had been discussed that methanol does nothing to the butterfly and thats not what fails on them? More so the meth causing internal failures in the TB. 

Ive seen 2 TB go bad both MKV 2.0L cars running meth, upon inspection the TB butterfly was distorted and both failed when the butterfly cracked and broke at the TB shaft, you make your own conclusion







Bob.G


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Ive seen 2 TB go bad both MKV 2.0L cars running meth, upon inspection the TB butterfly was distorted and both failed when the butterfly cracked and broke at the TB shaft, you make your own conclusion







Bob.G

Then Ill take your word for it. Hadn't seen any of that before. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by loudgli at 10:00 AM 11/19/2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: (loudgli)*

I think Jeff has a Picture of his TB butterfly cracked in half from Alk injection


----------



## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I think Jeff has a Picture of his TB butterfly cracked in half from Alk injection

my TB also crapped out on my after a few months of w/m injection. W/m injection rocked when I had it though, but the super limp mode you go into with a TB failure is really scary bad. I think that moisture messes with the TB a little more than the alky itself


----------



## Chipless (Jun 7, 2004)

Any updates?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Chipless)*

We should have some updates after christmas. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We should have some updates after christmas. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I don't like the sound of that!!!


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We should have some updates after christmas. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Looking for upgraded path for the future like AWD + 400AWHP would be nice but seeing what supporting internals are needed do it in stages .What my concern is to do it right when upgrading pistons to lower the CR a bit the block should be bored to the pistons so it doesn't drive the knock sensors crazy . 
Would be nice if there was and upgraded rods only with a upgraded cam to help lower the cylinder pressure and of course supporting Software.
LMK what you guys think .







Bob.G



_Modified by rracerguy717 at 8:01 PM 12-18-2009_


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

I just have to say, I love APR. Customer service after 2 years of having the stg3 is top notch. Just patiently waiting to take this thing to the next level.


----------



## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: (Runin2Rich4FSi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Runin2Rich4FSi* »_I just have to say, I love APR. Customer service after 2 years of having the stg3 is top notch. Just patiently waiting to take this thing to the next level. 

X2


----------



## Chipless (Jun 7, 2004)

I'm looking forward to some late Christmas presents. Keep us posted guys.


----------



## vwaro725 (May 29, 2007)

*Re: (Chipless)*

Its been a longgg time







Bringing it back to life hahaha








Any word guys its been a while, I know theres some vids out but lets hear the detailss http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tdipower17 (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: (vwaro725)*

Any chance this will happen for the tsi?


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## INYNN (Apr 14, 2008)

Where is our update... its almost MAY!


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## A3Performance (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: (INYNN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *INYNN* »_Where is our update... its almost MAY!









he's right! anything??


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## pekkle88 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Did you say?*

QUAD TIP exhaust by APR? Where can you buy that? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Chipless (Jun 7, 2004)

Any updates?


----------



## ChicagoGLI (Feb 8, 2006)

I love how APR always teases something, then they don't respond to thier customers but jump in other companies threads. I've been waiting for thier hyped DSG flash and their new FSI full intake to eliminate all those false MAF readings they claim other intakes give. Honestly I appreciate the time and research to deliver a market ready product, but come on. Is APR having financial issues preventing them from getting new products out in a timely manner? I hope not because they seem to have the best R & D team out there.


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## abacuc (May 10, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> We should have some updates after christmas. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


Maybe 2010 Christmas? :laugh:


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## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

HI APR Guys,

Are you going to realese this Stage IV Kit on this Water Fest? Tht would be great!


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

BETOGLI said:


> HI APR Guys,
> 
> Are you going to realese this Stage IV Kit on this Water Fest? Tht would be great!


Anyone serious about a full Stage 4 motorsport build (same as the one in the video) you can do it now. Just like many things in life, if you have to ask the price up front as your first question I'll unfortunately have to tell you you probably cannot afford it.


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

If you have stage 3 thats $7,200.00 dollards and to go stage 4 is $10,000.00 then im happy for you guys but might as well get an sti or evo and spend 10 grand on it and is going to smoke your stage 4 anytime. So when you add everything together is $17,200.00. Way too much money.



[email protected] said:


> Anyone serious about a full Stage 4 motorsport build (same as the one in the video) you can do it now. Just like many things in life, if you have to ask the price up front as your first question I'll unfortunately have to tell you you probably cannot afford it.


----------



## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

$GTI07$ said:


> If you have stage 3 thats $7,200.00 dollards and to go stage 4 is $10,000.00 then im happy for you guys but might as well get an sti or evo and spend 10 grand on it and is going to smoke your stage 4 anytime. So when you add everything together is $17,200.00. Way too much money.


while i do agree with you, one thing though if you are young and happen to have 17k lying around this is the better option, since owning an evo or a WRX while in your 20's will run you a fortune in insurance.


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## nynative14 (Jan 5, 2009)

tdotA3mike said:


> while i do agree with you, one thing though if you are young and happen to have 17k lying around this is the better option, since owning an evo or a WRX while in your 20's will run you a fortune in insurance.


true story thats how i ended up in my mk6. damn sti insurance at 22 with 1 ticket is ridiculous for full coverage in AZ


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

you guys are right about the insurance but here in florida is not that bad. i can only talk about myself. get a honda civic and throw an k22 head and a b18 block and turbo charge it and i will bet that it will still smoke apr stage 4 car any time. im not smashing on there product but is too much money.


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## Mothball (Apr 25, 2006)

Where was it ever confirmed that stg4 was 10K above stg3? I thought it was ~10K total (could be very sadly mistaken there though). Furthermore, has APR ever even confirmed just what goes into stg4? Yes, rods and 9.5:1 pistons have been mentioned and some people have said cams but I don't think it was ever APR who said these things. Near as I can tell it's just been speculation. Anyone have any REAL answers? APR? Hello?


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## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

Why put that much power in FWD?


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## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

That is an excellent question! I dont see the point in not having traction till 6th either!:laugh: I think APR should convert a Mk6 into a Stage 4 RWD/AWD! That would be beast!


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## xsabretoothx (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow, I'm a big fan of APR products, but that is a total douchebag response Arin.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

lmao, wow, i never read through this thread until now and that made me laugh so hard. wow.

so, if I use my brain, have a savings account, and hold myself accountable for my money, like a financially sound human being... and I ask for the price BEFORE i decide to buy a product... I suddenly and automatically can't afford it?

Would you buy a house without asking the price? I bet you just have wads of cash or a bunch of plastic and just toss it at the people you think might need to be paid. but hey, what do you care, you didnt ask the price because your so awesome that you can afford it. :laugh:

:thumbdown:

poorly played sir.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

Krieger said:


> lmao, wow, i never read through this thread until now and that made me laugh so hard. wow.
> 
> so, if I use my brain, have a savings account, and hold myself accountable for my money, like a financially sound human being... and I ask for the price BEFORE i decide to buy a product... I suddenly and automatically can't afford it?
> 
> ...


not the point he is saying that it should be pretty clear what this will run you and if you have to ask you most likely do not have an idea/funds for what it will take. Since the kit isn't out yet you have to come down to APR and they will price this out for you. Once the kit comes out i am sure we will get a price point. 

i have a feeling if joel or someone else said this people would not be calling him a dick.


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## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

Can u blame him? Couldve been better executed, but the theory is still valid. Just a poor choice of words is all.


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## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

This is kind of pointless debate, clearly Arin Meant you can buy it now.

on that note, APR are currently building me a Stage 4 Engine.

As it looks i will be able to post the exact component list and build pics.

hopeefully next week when everyone are back from WF i will be able to open up a thread about it and start posting info and pics.


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## ArcticDSG06 (Apr 15, 2010)

Any updates?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

tdotA3mike said:


> not the point he is saying that it should be pretty clear what this will run you and if you have to ask you most likely do not have an idea/funds for what it will take. Since the kit isn't out yet you have to come down to APR and they will price this out for you. Once the kit comes out i am sure we will get a price point.
> 
> i have a feeling if joel or someone else said this people would not be calling him a dick.


 are you kidding me guy? if anyone said that, they are a DICK. Joel, Darrin, Justin, Keith, Arin, anyone. 

****, im gonna go get a job as a car salesman and every time someone asks me the price of the car before they see the actual car, Im going to make them leave and say they cant afford it just because they asked. :screwy:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Comments Removed* 

_see other post for reason_


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

I see what your saying with having to work to build a quote and the deal might fall through, but do we have to shoot people's hopes down for no other reason than we feel it's a waste of our time? It doesn't take much to just say "If your serious, I can get to work on getting a quote together for you, but a ballpark is X amount" 

as far as being nice, dude, I used to respect APR like no tomorrow back when I started out in the scene... I used to message you and Keith all the time to ask questions and your advice was always fantastic and generally correct. Alot of what I've learned with this platform comes from work you have done and shared with us, or information you guys post up. I used to get teased by the locals who hated you guys because I liked your stuff alot. 

However, that respect only lasts so long when I see companies start with the "holier than thow" kinda strategy. I understand your company is top dog, but if you go burning bridges and leaving sour tastes in the consumer's mouth, it's going to bite you in the ass. I own my own business, and have helped run offices and stuff before, and pulling something like what you did above would have ended up with my company, and job, going down in flames. 

You guys do FANTASTIC work, and i completely respect that, but telling someone they are basically unworthy of your stuff just seems arrogant to me. Im sorry if you feel you can/need to be, but I was raised differently I guess. 

so, again, props for the fantastic work (and awesome kits you guys offer), but it really steers me away from local APR dealers when I think of this kinda stuff. 

:beer: 

P.S. I have indeed driven an R8, but not at the dealer. My best friend's cousin bought one... it wasnt as nice as I thought it would be. lol the only time I have ever been to my dealership is to bring in my POS audi for work every once in a while, or to pick up some parts. Otherwise, I avoid that bitch like a fat kid avoids salads. 

oh, and I did get the carpet dirty. :laugh:


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> * Bottom of the line, if you have to ask, you probably can't afford. * If that changes with a smaller simple answer option, I'll list the price. Every build has been different based upon the customers needs. This is especially true when dealing with motorsport teams with specific build requirements. There isn't a book I can open with a set price so there is no quick answer.
> 
> .


 Im a longtime supporter of APR and that Statement above is very disturbing. 

Arin the topic of this thread that YOU started I quote " Stage 4 development " 

Now your talking and doing 10K MOTORSPORT builds ,seems like compairing apples to oranges no ? 
Has APR scraped the Stage 4 upgrade? and moved on too the TSI and TFSI engine ??. 
Sounds like what happened to the 1.8T Stage 3+


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Comments Removed* 

_see other post for reason_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> If anyone wants full stage 4 right now, the full build, everything, factor the cost of a full stage 3 kit plus $20,000. That will get you close.
> 
> :


 Well you put the cost out , what power level do you receive for 20K = 450 WHP?


----------



## GTi71184 (Mar 16, 2009)

You should have not started a stage 4 development thread if you did not want questions and attention. Arin you should really reconsider your manners even if this is just the internet. Everything you say on here is a reflection of APR and at the moment it seems very unprofessional. I have had a lot of help from APR and I think your products are great. However, I do agree with what some people said about being overly confident when talking to consumers. If APR was not ready to deal with questions about price then that is what you should have said in the first place.:screwy:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*comments removed* 

_See other post for reason_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Comments Removed* 

_See other post for reason_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> A fully scanned and verified built motor, including calibration and labor, capable of brutal professional road racing, with quicker spool and more power at every RPM w/o the need for extra fuel injection. That number was around 450-460 whp on our dyno. The power band is roughly 4000 RPM's thick.


 Sounds like like APR Stage 4 numbers are gonna disapointing and no bang for the buck  

Probably not worth modding any further then APR Stage 3 which is solid and reliable BTW :thumbup:


----------



## ArcticDSG06 (Apr 15, 2010)

rracerguy717 said:


> Probably not worth modding any further then APR Stage 3 which is solid and reliable BTW :thumbup:


 Thanks for the advice. :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Hey guys, I deleted my comments from earlier. I need to apologize as I probably came off a bit harshly. I've been traveling, moving and doing a lot lately and just haven't had the time and effort to put into some of these posts like I use too. I'm extremely passionate about this stuff so I get worked up over it at times. You could say I'm a bit burnt out but no excuses, sorry to each and every one of you if anything I said turned you off. 

So, let me try to update you guys where stage 4 is. 

First, how and why was this post started? What happened to the car at the beginning of the thread? Well, the owner (Chris) sold it before we were finished. :banghead: We had a few plans for stage 4 that involved a step by step process to find the best bang for the buck method of delivering more power to stage 4 customers. We already went through full motorsport builds and knew those made power but those builds were, as I put it above, too expensive to name prices. If you had the money, then it was the route to take for sure but for most people out there it's clearly not an option. We know this and we are not a company looking to cut corners. We simply planned to develop an upgrade path that would get most people a healthy bump in power for little cost. 

So back to the car in the beginning of this thread. Before it was sold the first step was testing compression changes. Turned out it really didn't make a magnificent change in power alone. And like I said, the car was sold so development on that car ended. 

Along the way several other full builds took place. I'm sure you've all seen the car going 180mph down the highway. That's a full build. That was quite expensive but to date I've never seen another 2.0T any faster w/o some method of extra fueling and crazy turbo lag. 

So how much does it cost? 

Right now every build is unique to some degree. Each build has been completely controlled in house. All labor and calibration happened with the car in house to ensure everything went along smoothly. As such all pricing we have given to customers has been fully on a case by case basis and depended upon the extent of the build. Most of this stuff is not portable and will not translate from one ECU to the next or one car to the next, meaning each person paid for the custom calibration and engineering time to develop the tunes. As one can imagine that drives up the price but it ensures the highest level of quality we can possibly offer. My point? I don't really have a price I can give anyone with any degree of accuracy. Full motorsport builds are expensive. If you understand what that means, then we can set up a conference call and discuss your options. 

We do things a little different here. There is no way we could deliver the level of smoothness we demand by exchanging logs back and forth. While that may get us a smooth dyno plot with high numbers, it will not get us cold start as best as we possibly can, part throttle as best as possible and all driving conditions as smooth and nice as possible. Because of that all calibrations of this degree will always take place in house just like all of our other calibrations we do. Some people have asked to install parts and just send us logs back and forth. We really cannot offer this type of service with any guarantee of drivability. That all comes from feeling. Our calibrators must be behind the wheel with high rate data logging tools with access to variables not recorded with vag-com. 

So what's the plan? 

The plan is to offer a turn key solution that will not require a each vehicle in house. This means the kits must be identical and first calibrated in house. What this will mean is all the fancy headwork, such as a port and polish, really will be out the window. Does that mean it will not make as much power as the motorsport builds? I'm pretty sure it will, but I don't have enough data collected yet to tell you yes or no. My point is we are still working on stage 4 upgrade paths that will not be 'too expensive'. The second I have an answer on what that will be you can count on me posting. You know I will! You know I can't hold that type of information in. I'll blab. I'll let all know the second I have an answer. 

Until then if you want to get serious about a full motorsport build, come talk to us and we'll see what we can do. If you already have stage 3 on a healthy car and are able to part with it for 3-6 weeks for other development such as pistons, cams and APR low side fueling we can work something out too. Just shoot me an email. 

Thanks guys!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> So, let me try to update you guys where stage 4 is.
> 
> We simply planned to develop an upgrade path that would get most people a healthy bump in power for little cost.
> We do things a little different here. There is no way we could deliver the level of smoothness we demand by exchanging logs back and forth. While that may get us a smooth dyno plot with high numbers, it will not get us cold start as best as we possibly can, part throttle as best as possible and all driving conditions as smooth and nice as possible. Because of that all calibrations of this degree will always take place in house just like all of our other calibrations we do. Some people have asked to install parts and just send us logs back and forth. We really cannot offer this type of service with any guarantee of drivability. That all comes from feeling. Our calibrators must be behind the wheel with high rate data logging tools with access to variables not recorded with vag-com.
> ...


 
Arin thats better LOL 

I edited and kept it on topic Stage 4 specific info  Bob.G


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## INYNN (Apr 14, 2008)

Solid update. 

Sounds like its a waiting game at this point.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

better to do it right then do it at all, thats for sure!


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

now thats an update. sounds like you guys have your work cut out for you! 

I honestly cant wait to see how this shapes up. :thumbup:


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## GTi71184 (Mar 16, 2009)

I can't wait to see how this turns out!:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

Arin ur such a jerk... :laugh:  

The original ballpark price quote if I thought about it is actually not that bad... To have a solution that is guaranteed to have X amount of power and is totally turn key and reliable from the get go for about the same price if you were to total all the parts, labor, tuning etc etc with the hopes that they will work together and that you will get the power you should get from X setup with no guarantees... 

I look at it like building your own PC with XYZ parts vs buying a MAC PRO or something like that... u know it will work and do what its supposed to out of the box... and it has a warranty to boot... 

Keep up the good work guys... can't wait to see where this ends up! :thumbup:  and while you're at it... get to work on a Stage 3 kit for a 2011+ Longitudinal TFSI... and have it ready say around christmas time...


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

yvrnycracer said:


> Arin ur such a jerk... :laugh:


 Arin does a good job ,we just need to reel him in every once and while LOL 


BTW who is going to step up to the plate with Stage 4 ?? 

I was the first one back in 06


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## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

I dont understand why companies make a big deal doing motor work. In the end a euro motor is still a motor and it shouldnt take 3 to 6 weeks to "develop". If i took it to apr for a build, and it took that long, then i would expect a new intake mani and aux injectors. An apr stage 3 and a built motor still wont make 500+ hp. We are limited in fuel period. Until we get a solid solution for fuel then this motor is DEAD.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

IMAN973 said:


> I dont understand why companies make a big deal doing motor work. In the end a euro motor is still a motor and it shouldnt take 3 to 6 weeks to "develop". If i took it to apr for a build, and it took that long, then i would expect a new intake mani and aux injectors. An apr stage 3 and a built motor still wont make 500+ hp. We are limited in fuel period. Until we get a solid solution for fuel then this motor is DEAD.


 Honestly If I wanted those power levels of 500WHP + I would not be modding a VW the EVO is what your looking for IMO . Give 20K +Buscher = 600-700 AWHP easy  

I love having the best of both worlds in comfort and power response and very wide power band. 

I would be happy 400-425whp and power everywhere . 

APR can do it the question is can they do it and it still drive OEM otherwise APR will not release it :thumbup: Bob.G 

BTW If you still want those power levels with your VW go see Ed @ FFE he can do a custom setup to get you in that area power level with the fueling the only hurdle would be tuning


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## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Honestly If I wanted those power levels of 500WHP + I would not be modding a VW the EVO is what your looking for IMO . Give 20K +Buscher = 600-700 AWHP easy
> 
> I love having the best of both worlds in comfort and power response and very wide power band.
> 
> ...


 Buscher is a beast when it comes to tuning. I love evos dont get me wrong but its too easy to make power, except for the x's which need to be sleeved. But wheres the challenge in it? At least in a VW people dont expect you to be fast. 

Not to be a dcik but i wasnt referring to my car personally. I dont need ed nor would i trust him with a potato gun lol. Not only do i have fueling, im working on an e85 kit just for kicks, and tuning is no longer an issue for me thanks to the maestro 9


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

IMAN973 said:


> it shouldnt take 3 to 6 weeks to "develop"


 Tell a customer it will take a week and see what happens when it takes two due to unforeseen issues. 

You never know what can happen. We may be busy and have other projects under way at the same time (which we alway do). We may hit a snag in the tuning process and need to hunt down a bad OEM sensor (has happened before). It may have rained for a week straight giving us almost no time to tune on the road (been there, done that). How do you tune cold start in the summer? let the car sit all day and do it in the middle of the night when the car is cold. You only have a few shots to get the 'cold start' condition in a day so there is time the car will just sit. All these things add up. If the changes we made were not what we wanted, you gotta do it all over again. It's not a 1 day project. 

3-6 weeks is a good estimate. That gives us breathing room to make sure we have enough time to do it and to do it right. We want to ensure the calibrators are not rushed. We want the car perfect. We also want a little more time behind the wheel to ensure it's smooth in all driving conditions. 

Sure, drop in a part and tune it in one evening. That can be done but the results will be less than ideal. But like I said, if you tell someone it will take a week and it takes 3, it never goes over well.


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## Gradysmith (Feb 18, 2012)

Saw an article in VW performance mag (european based mag), that a new Golf R, with the APR stage 4 was putting down 600HP and 627 lb-ft on race gas. Ran a 10.8 sec 1/4 mile. Not bad. :thumbup:

Stage 3+ on a TSI GTI was at 570HP. 

So maybe that means its released in other parts of the world.


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