# Adult FWD LSX V8 discussion (CWS northstar golf build info) Not mine.



## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

First off this is not a "Hi guys what will it take to cram a v8 into my golf" thread. I'd like to discuss of course but it's not something i'm even planning on doing. I have been all over the net looking at swap ideas from mild to wild because i love swaps the ingenuity and creativity is astounding some times. Well i ran across the northstar MK2 golf and thought, Damn why not something like a 4.8 gen III lr4 instead. Parts are wherever and power cheep I have personally helped install LSX engines in a few cars. All RWD of course. Now sadly either time or just lack of documentation has made it so that i can't find anything on how they shimmed that sucker in there. So i'm trying to start a discussion that could one day have enough information for someone to try this. Here are the reasons i think it's a good idea.
1)vr6's have been done to death
2)an LR4 weighs in less than 40LBS heavier on average
vr6 420lbs average
LR4/aluminum lsx variants 450lbs
3)the weight is lower Vr's are top heavy the LSX engines have a much lower center of gravity
4)mods upon mods upon mods there is an LS flavor for anyone's tastes and priced cheaply i might add.
5)Reliability, a mild LSX install will run for damn near ever and when something breaks parts are cheap
6)Easy HP this goes without saying but averaging around 270–285 hp stock just doing a tune on these puts them above 300hp a cam can ad as much as 50hp if your going with a lumpy cam tons of cheap power to be made
7)Tons info and community backing to help with just about any issue you could run into .

That being said of course anyone taking this on would need fabricating skills,a shoehorn, and enough lube scare a porn star but it would be fun to drive.
Here are some questions and hurdles I have come across already.
Transmissions? I know there are alot of gm to vw adapter plates but are any of them capable of fitting something like an 02j I'm not sure anything else could handle the TQ. There are a couple kits to mate one to a f40 6 speed gearbox for mounting in a pontiac fiero and I have seen that used in an MR2 so that's possible but then it's more custom fabbing. I haven't tried it but it seems that if you swaped in a VR6 sub frame and could use an 02J you would have alot less work.
What was used in the northstar build? if we had info on parts like frame steering rack and other parts making a digital mockup would be a breeze.
What did I miss? 
What do you guys think and how would you do it?

Here is some of the Info i have collected thus far.
Northstar pages
http://www.cwstuning.com/galleries.htm
http://www.cwstuning.com/project_coupedegolf.htm
http://forums.thecarlounge.com/showthread.php?3765653-MK2-with-Northstar-V8
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1358066-CWS-Tuning-Coupe-De-Golf-32v-northstar-engine
http://www.vwforum.com/forums/f13/cadillac-northstar-v8-swap-19360/
videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_6lz1bsTxU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWYPfcyCAU4
Pics
http://www.cwstuning.com/gallery_91golf.htm
only clicking on full sized options work. 

That is all the info i have tracked down only the CWS stuff has any real info I have emailed them in hopes of getting some better info on parts the used that were not fabbed and anything on what was fabbed outside of the obvious Exhaust,motor mounts ,ect. but that's all info on a northstar build while it's a starting point it's not an lsx transplant. Well from here on out it's all discussion. Kind of a "if i had money,time,tools" this is what i would do thread.
Transverse ls7 for a fiero


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

This will be the one and only time i bump this thread.If there isn't any interest in the idea let it die It just seemed like an untapped conversation all the current vw engines have been done to death at the same time almost every RWD car has had an LSX motor crammed into it one way or another. I know why FWD cars haven't as much but if they can be fit into a fiero and an MR2 why not an FWD besides the obvious fabrication needs the only variable that is different is adding steering to the mix. That and the engine bay of an MK2/3 is much larger than either of those cars.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The VW swap scene has become stagnant due to the 'stance' crowd. Who cares about engines when there's $3000 worth of air suspension to buy for the cool points. It's sad. Not to mention that there are very few people on the tex who are able to even consider something like this due to not being mechanically inclined or able to fabricate what's required. This whole place has become about the 'bolt-on'.

I say go for it, but the whole transmission thing might be trouble unless you use something FWD that bolts to it already. I wouldn't trust an 02x (0,A,J) box behind one, which leaves 02M/Q as the only option...and they're not cheap yet.


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

B4S said:


> The VW swap scene has become stagnant due to the 'stance' crowd. Who cares about engines when there's $3000 worth of air suspension to buy for the cool points. It's sad. Not to mention that there are very few people on the tex who are able to even consider something like this due to not being mechanically inclined or able to fabricate what's required. This whole place has become about the 'bolt-on'.
> 
> I say go for it, but the whole transmission thing might be trouble unless you use something FWD that bolts to it already. I wouldn't trust an 02x (0,A,J) box behind one, which leaves 02M/Q as the only option...and they're not cheap yet.


First i want to say thanks I was beginning to think i was the only one who thought this way anymore. Vw's have alot going for them as far as bolt on's go and that's great but it where other old cars have just as much community backing vw's lack the fabricating angle it seems. Back to the transmission fiero and MR2 owners that have done the mod use the F40 for a manual 6 speed option. Which is good but adds another fabrication angle to the build. you can take an LS4 bolt a F40 to it and transplant that into a mid engine car and your sitting at just over 300 hp stock. the ls1 and other lsx motors need custom plates. as the crank on an ls4 is 13mm shorter. I was considering the vw transmissions for the sake of the discussion because it made it so hopefully someone doing this build could use stock axles hubs and the like. just less fabbing there. that and the f40 isn't a cheap transmission. lowest i have seen sitting at just over 500. but a full ls4 dropout and an F40 would only set you back about 1600 max. so if your good at wiring and fabbing a whole swap can be done (in a fiero/mr2) for under 4k. Tack on atleast another 1500 for R&D to install it in a mk2/3 and your out just over 5 grand for a car that now is sitting at a comfortable 300hp and 305tq and another 600 in engine mods intake,cam and a tune now we are in the 400 hp numbers NA. With +or- a few pounds on a Vr6. A single turbo setup on the stock motor would push you closer to 500+ with no need to change stock internals (look up the 1000hp horsepower magazine build on a stock 5.3 some time). LSX motors are monsters even the smallest 4.8 can make demonic power on a mild budget. there is a reason people have shoehorned them into just about every RWD platform there is. Which is why I don't understand why more FWD cars haven't been given the LSX love yet. Sure I have seen FWD turned into RWD with them but there are pluses to the FWD platform.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

This is an interesting concept to explore. This car was local to me when I lived in Regina but I never saw it so I can't comment on how it was done, I am not even sure who owns it at this point. My concern with a swap like this is space as the engine is significantly bigger than a vr6 and the valve cover doesn't even clear the radiator support which had to be trimmed. It seems like more work than it is worth really. Exhaust routing would be interesting as well for the front bank of cylinders.\

An interesting swap would be the yamaha v6 out of a taurus SHO.


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

JamesS said:


> This is an interesting concept to explore. This car was local to me when I lived in Regina but I never saw it so I can't comment on how it was done, I am not even sure who owns it at this point. My concern with a swap like this is space as the engine is significantly bigger than a vr6 and the valve cover doesn't even clear the radiator support which had to be trimmed. It seems like more work than it is worth really. Exhaust routing would be interesting as well for the front bank of cylinders.\
> 
> An interesting swap would be the yamaha v6 out of a taurus SHO.


The LS series is alot more compact than most might think. 
Consider the following. this is the same engine in an MR2's engine bay.


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

This is the best i can do for a comparison the difference between the 2 is more about your center of gravity the LS is much lower where the Vr6 is a very top heavy motor. 
Vr6 miata
















Ls1 miata remove the plastic corvette covers and the motors take up about the same amount of space


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

I would think you could only swap a v8 which came in a transverse application, not any ls engine as it would be too long. In both you probably have to shift the transmission to the drivers side to clear the framerail

The northstar v8 has a pretty bad reputation


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

JamesS said:


> I would think you could only swap a v8 which came in a transverse application, not any ls engine as it would be too long. In both you probably have to shift the transmission to the drivers side to clear the framerail
> 
> The northstar v8 has a pretty bad reputation


The ls4 was a transverse solution and was in several GM cars around 2005 but it's differences are mostly bolt on. 
The difference between the ls4 (fwd ls) and the rest of the lsx family is 3 things
1)13mm shorter crank 10mm shorter front 3mm rear
2)different bell housing pattern for transmissions that were already on the market for FWD
3)an accessory drive that takes advantage of a single serpentine belt and a relocated water pump.

All of which can be done to any lsx motor family without much effort. miata swaps often borrow the ls4 accessory drive to get more room. The first post has pics of exactly that. Those pics are of an LS7 (gm 454 lsx) with an ls4 accessory drive and a FWD F40 transmission attached and it's final resting place is transversely mounted in a pontiac fiero.
your right about the northstar engines though that is why i wanted to spark an LSX conversation. Someone fit a much larger (space wise) northstar motor in a mk2 the LSX family will have no problems fitting into that space.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

I have looked at the LS4 not for a VW, but for my Volvo V70 when I had it. I agree that if CWS could get a northstar and GM tranny to fit, the LS4 should go in with less issue. The weak part in that package is the gm transmission. I know there are a few that swap to the F40, but I usually only see that in Fiero swaps. The LS4/Impala SS crowd that go for performance usually just beef up the gm tranny and address the weak points internally and few external tricks. Of course that means you want to say automatic similar to what CWS did back in the day.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

Look at the pictures of the CWS northstar golf. It is not that easy, and even the way they did it isn't that great. The subframe is gutted and the transmission mount is welded to the side of the framerail. I have no idea how they had enough room to fit a radiator in the front as the front bank is where the radiator would usually be. The engine is just too big to be a practical swap IMO. It would be even hard if the engine had to adapt to the vw transmission since that would make the package even longer.


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## euro_racer16v (Jun 22, 2003)

I know it's not fwd like the discussion brings up but since are are talking about vw's and Lsx engines...

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1769199-1990-vw-corrado-5-3-s475-th400.html


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

euro_racer16v said:


> I know it's not fwd like the discussion brings up but since are are talking about vw's and Lsx engines...
> 
> http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1769199-1990-vw-corrado-5-3-s475-th400.html


Very cool I love swaps like this. Though RWD is a bit more straight forward with all the frame kits these days Just buy a 4link swap in a ford 9in or something fancier mod the tranny tunnel and install a motor. Thats not to say it's easier. the reason i'm focused on FWD is so maybe we can get an actual swap that alot of people could do. it wouldn't be in the bolt on crowd but would need far less cutting and welding. the key is getting the right parts to make it as easy an install as possible. So far what I have come up with is this.

LS4 or an aluminum LSX family with LS4 accessories
for manual transmission you would have to use an F40 so custom Transaxles would have to be made Probibly a cut and weld from gm and VW axles to allow stock VW arms and spindles.
Low profile headers
A camaro or custom low profile oil pan probably something with an external tank
an MS plug and play box would be best but some time and you could use a stock harness with a gm ecu Reflash
Camaro radiator 
From there it would be anyone's guess as it's down to fitment


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## euro_racer16v (Jun 22, 2003)

I think this website has died due to Facebook and what not and the cost associated with trying to make a vw fast. Everyone has moved on to "stance" arena. 

I'm not debating anything on the FWD vs RWD aspect, I was just throwing that link up. I've always wanted to put a v8 into a mk2 and when I had an opportunity to get this corrado I jumped on the chance. 

It would be cool to see the ls4 thrown down in one but now you have a lot higher priced parts to source due to them being the bastards of GM but we should be used to that being vw owners. You also have to consider the lack of traction on higher hp cars with FWD. I see 3 main issues with this swap, oil pan height and shape, front exhaust manifold near radiator, width of frame rails. You may lose your brake booster at least under the hood. Wiring could be doing easily with the gm stuff as it can be tuned into a 4-5 wire hook up. Just use the vw cooling fan relays and plug it all into the original fuse box. The axles would be one of the simplest things.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

euro_racer16v said:


> You also have to consider the lack of traction on higher hp cars with FWD.


According to local guys the northstar v8 golf couldn't get good traction on the drag strip and ran a 14 flat quarter mile- it would definitely need drag radials to put down that power.


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## Old Windy (Apr 1, 2009)

Another part I have seen missing on the other posts is the steering. You have to take that too into account unless you come up with a creative way to make the steering shaft work around the engine and trans or you switch into one of the new drive by wire steering systems common in cars today also looking into what set up of steering rack will fit into this engine set up.

I can see the advantages into sticking with a VW transmission. It will minimize your search and fabrication into that part of the driveline components. But if the Polo there were able to fit and synch 2 engines into it I can see this being able. Or you can follow the Fiero / MR2 way and drop it into the back of the Golf but then you would have fuel cell and delivery fabrication to take into account. 

I'm not sure if you already have an lsx around and a 02A/02M with you, but try to present one to the other to see how they interact. Or maybe since you already opened this topic; why not a 3800 series engine with supercharger?


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## 85GTIGUY (May 8, 2014)

the problem with the 3800 is it's notorious for leaks and gasket failures. but striped and cleaned up they aren't bad. but in the end even an na 4.8L makes more power.


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## DUB-YAH (May 4, 2004)

the north star golf ran the north star automatic trans with custom axles. subframe and drivers control arm were modified to fit the transmission. radiator was custom made and ran a large rx7 oil cooler. everything else is pretty self explanatory from pictures.


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