# C2 630 vs Lugtronic



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Since that other thread went to **** and people stopped following it, here we go. 

Well here is the hard data people. I know my car isn't a crazy 500whp VRT but lugtronic made more power over C2 Chip on my car, not to mention the drive ability is so much better now. 

Same Car 
Same Dyno 
No Changes other then software 

Run 3 (Blue) is 630 Promaf on high boost (23.5psi) --- Run 10 (Red) is Lugtronic on Low boost (15psi) 










Made the same power 9 psi apart. 

Now here is run 13 which is Lugtronic on the same high boost seeting 23.5psi 










Here are 22 and 23.5 psi runs 










Turbo was about done in this range. Also had a small fueling issue when we got this high. Might have gotten 440ish out of it otherwise. 

*Lugtronic Best Numbers* - 419.57 WHP 370.75 TRQ 
*C2 Promaf Best Numbers* - 383.52 WHP 309.61 TRQ 

_NET - 36.05 WHP 61.14 TRQ_:wave: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZidG3_eLcOA 

By no means saying chipped cars don't make power, because they do. This was just what worked best for me. Do what you want with the information, but these are facts.:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Any boost vs mph plots? Id be willing to bet the extra power your making is in boost. Like I said before the power is in the timing.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Good info! The other thread reminded of the MKIV forum.....


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

Nice! So how much did it cost to swap over to lugtronic + tuning? I'm sure my setup could also benefit from standalone tuning :thumbup:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

R32Smoker said:


> Nice! So how much did it cost to swap over to lugtronic + tuning? I'm sure my setup could also benefit from standalone tuning :thumbup:


 1475 for the ecu and plug and play harness + extras if you want them + tuning and travel costs for the tuner + renting a local dyno for a couple hours. 

But your car will run the best it ever has.:thumbup:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Kinda surprised that the Pro-MAF did not make more power at nearly 24 psi. Especially considering that 440 tunes ~ 20 psi have the potential to make low 400's. 

Thanks for sharing though. :thumbup:


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

Good stuff! :thumbup: 

It's perfectly logical that canned tunes are designed for very specific combinations, and won't be optimal in all cases, or potentially any for that matter; it's impractical to be too aggressive with software sold to the masses, makes more sense to err on the side of caution. 

You can certainly make respectable power on canned tunes with the right combination, but it is nice to see the gains that could be possible through optimization. :beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

9% gain is no joke. :thumbup:


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

This is awesome! Congrats to you and :thumbup: to Lugtronic and Kevin!!! 

Im only email tuned by Kevin and I love how my car drives! I wonder how much more I can get out of my stock setup with a dyno tune... Hmmmm


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

BLSport said:


> Good stuff! :thumbup:
> 
> It's perfectly logical that canned tunes are designed for very specific combinations, and won't be optimal in all cases, or potentially any for that matter; it's impractical to be too aggressive with software sold to the masses, makes more sense to err on the side of caution.
> 
> You can certainly make respectable power on canned tunes with the right combination, but it is nice to see the gains that could be possible through optimization. :beer:


 Agreed, I just wanted to show that standalone can take your unique car and do more then a chip can since people we arguing about minimal gains. Chipped cars make power, but just think about how much more a chipped car would make with this standalone. And that's what this was about. Also no one had done this type of study with evidence yet so we decided too. This is just what worked for me, and may work for others. eace: 



V-dubbulyuh said:


> Kinda surprised that the Pro-MAF did not make more power at nearly 24 psi. Especially considering that 440 tunes ~ 20 psi have the potential to make low 400's.
> 
> Thanks for sharing though. :thumbup:


 By comparison I made 363 on 440 tune at roughly the same boost levels, cars very close to mine have made over 400 on that tune. Mine didn't and the drive ability was very sub par. Also my turbo is about maxed at that psi. So I'm happy with the results. Probably could have gotten to 440whp if the fuel issue didn't come up. Small dip in duel pressure up top so we stopped there. Working to correct that now, both pumps replaced and I just ordered a new FPR as I think thats the issue. 



need_a_VR6 said:


> 9% gain is no joke. :thumbup:


 :beer::beer::wave::thumbup::thumbup:


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

Which turbo are you running?


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

JoHnsVrT said:


> Which turbo are you running?


 Turbonetics T60-1 T3 hotisde Stage 3 Wheel


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

BLSport said:


> Good stuff! :thumbup:
> 
> It's perfectly logical that canned tunes are designed for very specific combinations, and won't be optimal in all cases, or potentially any for that matter; it's impractical to be too aggressive with software sold to the masses, makes more sense to err on the side of caution.
> 
> You can certainly make respectable power on canned tunes with the right combination, but it is nice to see the gains that could be possible through optimization. :beer:


 some chips work great and some people are happy running below their max potential. Nice to see the OP posting up the difference the saw!! 
:thumbup:


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

spending over $2000 just for the software end seems very very steep to just make ~400whp.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> spending over $2000 just for the software end seems very very steep to just make ~400whp.


 While that may be true, I've spent more then that going through 3 revs of C2 softwares trying to get the car to run right and have near OE drive ability. C2 chip had dips, some hesitations, randomly go lean, shut off sometimes, after 4 chips with 42# stuff I went to the 630 promaf stuff. Ran much better but still wasn't great. 

The next time I change something (like installing the 262 cams I just picked up) I just have to work with Kevin to change it, no re-buying anything else. Also the 2-step launch control, and ramping boost and such make it worth it to me. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Aa8Qm99nIA (fun 2-step video) 

Chips didn't work for me, and didn't give me what I wanted. It's not just about power to me, being able to put this to the ground through ramping boost and having a solid driving car is worth every penny. :thumbup: 

Chips work for some for sure, and people have made a lot more power on them, but I wasn't happy with the way the car was, so I went standalone with great results. As far as I'm concerned the extra power was just a bonus. 

And its $1475.00 for the standalone unit.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

thecorradokid24 said:


> 1475 for the ecu and plug and play harness + extras if you want them + tuning and travel costs for the tuner + renting a local dyno for a couple hours.
> 
> But your car will run the best it ever has.:thumbup:


 Seems like way more than $2000 after all these costs involved.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Seems like way more than $2000 after all these costs involved.


 Yeah after about everything, a lot of people don't live close enough for him to tune it so you do it through logs in the software and e-mail with Kevin. That's much cheaper and the norm.


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

Yeah, that's a bit too much for me anytime soon, but I'm glad you got good results man :thumbup: 

My car is running great on the C2 630 tune, the main thing I'd really like to do is fine tune my A/F to smooth it out just a bit. Do people ever run a piggyback A/F controller like the Apexi units with a chip tune?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Yeah after about everything, a lot of people don't live close enough for him to tune it so you do it through logs in the software and e-mail with Kevin. That's much cheaper and the norm.


 Plus it can be tuned by any good tuner, the software it easy to work with


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Some/alot of people are happy with their chip tunes and so they stay with that setup... Some/alot of people didnt have the success and was not happy with their chip tunes so they tried another way... People just need to accept that everybody has different goals and want with their setup. Some people have spent more money and some less but its all worth it at the end to the owner... I know everyone wish their setup cost them less but nothing is perfect... My .02


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

Nice numbers man!:thumbup:


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## 98rzvr6 (Nov 12, 2005)

Those are some nice numbers and its pretty cool that someone finally was able to do a comparison. I also had the 630cc pro maf set up last year and it ran alright but like the guy said, it would have random lean issues and it annyoned the living **** out of me. It would run great for most of the time but it would have its moments where it just sucked but overall its not bad for the average person. I stepped up to the lugtronic this year too so im excited to see what kind of difference it is but im sure it will be much better. Good luck with everything, glad to see it worked out.


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

I got the 630 file now just havnt had dyno time yet. For sure i will be stepping up to lugtronic just for the obvious reasons being able to tune the car boost by gear anti lag. But for now ill be happy with high 10's down the track with this 630 file


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> spending over $2000 just for the software end seems very very steep to just make ~400whp.


 Basing the cost on dollars spent when comparing just the chip and maf housing it does seem expensive but when basing the price on features it would become much closer. Add boost by gear (apexi avrc),2 step and full throttle shift (wot box) to your chip as well as the cost of installing those items if you are not doing it yourself and its close. 
Not to mention the many other features and has well as the ability to tweak the file if you add parts like cams,sri,h2o inj, different types of fuel and the flexibility of a standalone is worth every penny.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> Basing the cost on dollars spent when comparing just the chip and maf housing it does seem expensive but when basing the price on features it would become much closer. Add boost by gear (apexi avrc),2 step and full throttle shift (wot box) to your chip as well as the cost of installing those items if you are not doing it yourself and its close.
> Not to mention the many other features and has well as the ability to tweak the file if you add parts like cams,sri,h2o inj, different types of fuel and the flexibility of a standalone is worth every penny.


 And its all going to cost about the same in the end after you buy all your boxes and other crap. The capability of a standalone if so far beyond anything you can do with a chip its foolish to compare. In the end its all going to cost about the same. The only advantage right now is that OEM ecu can be scanned but a PnP ecu makes this trivial anyways.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

98rzvr6 said:


> Those are some nice numbers and its pretty cool that someone finally was able to do a comparison. I also had the 630cc pro maf set up last year and it ran alright but like the guy said, it would have random lean issues and it annyoned the living **** out of me. It would run great for most of the time but it would have its moments where it just sucked but overall its not bad for the average person. I stepped up to the lugtronic this year too so im excited to see what kind of difference it is but im sure it will be much better. Good luck with everything, glad to see it worked out.


 You won regret it! Best money I've spent on the car honestly. 

Glad to see there is some healthy discussion going on in here about this subject. My intent was just to provide my experience with both, an what worked for me.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> spending over $2000 just for the software end seems very very steep to just make ~400whp.


 Agreed. Yeah 9% is great but for $2k? 

Apparently the driveability is better so whatever makes the owner happy:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

JoHnsVrT said:


> I got the 630 file now just havnt had dyno time yet. For sure i will be stepping up to lugtronic just for the obvious reasons being able to tune the car boost by gear anti lag. But for now ill be happy with high 10's down the track with this 630 file


 You run 10's yet? Pro MAF setup or the stock maf in 4" housing 630? 

Post up your results:thumbup: 

I know chipped cars are capable of 10's. Only a matter of time.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Agreed. Yeah 9% is great but for $2k?
> 
> Apparently the driveability is better so whatever makes the owner happy:beer:


 Why do you feel the need to take a shot at everyone who doesnt do everything your way?


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

well his way is cheaper and faster duh....


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> well his way is cheaper and faster duh....


 No actually its not really cheaper and it sure isnt faster. Why do people listen to this guy is beyond me.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Guys, seriously please don't start the typical back 'n forth in this thread (as the OP said, he was simply putting info out there). We now have a million threads under the Force Induction forum of chip vs standalone and it is the exact same arguments for/against each time.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> You run 10's yet? Pro MAF setup or the stock maf in 4" housing 630?
> 
> Post up your results:thumbup:
> 
> I know chipped cars are capable of 10's. Only a matter of time.


 No where did I say that they couldn't? :facepalm: 

I've said multiple times chipped cars can make plenty of power, because they do. Just stating that they didn't work for me and this is what did. :thumbup:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Agreed. Yeah 9% is great but for $2k?
> 
> Apparently the driveability is better so whatever makes the owner happy:beer:


 We could have gotten a little bit more if I didn't have a dip in fuel pressure. Issue should be resolved now. Back to the dyno in a few weeks. 

But yes I am happy with it, makes the car run correctly. :beer:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

thecorradokid24 said:


> We could have gotten a little bit more if I didn't have a dip in fuel pressure. Issue should be resolved now. Back to the dyno in a few weeks.
> 
> But yes I am happy with it, makes the car run correctly. :beer:


 what wasthe issue?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> No where did I say that they couldn't? :facepalm:
> 
> I've said multiple times chipped cars can make plenty of power, because they do. Just stating that they didn't work for me and this is what did. :thumbup:


  My post was not directed at you. If it were I would have quoted you. 

Guys, just to be clear I'm not advocating one way or another for all nor am I trying to prove anyone wrong. My way worked for me. 

The quoting everything I post and trying to start an argument over it is kinda pointless. Doesn't make me go away and only sidetracks threads.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> We could have gotten a little bit more if I didn't have a dip in fuel pressure. Issue should be resolved now. Back to the dyno in a few weeks.
> 
> But yes I am happy with it, makes the car run correctly. :beer:


 All that matters. Sucks a chip didn't work for you, but whatever it takes to get the car runing the way you want it:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> well his way is cheaper and faster duh....


 Blah blah blah. 

The only time I get into all of that is when someone insults me or my setup. I like to see people happy with the money they've spent. 

Usually goes like this. 
-"Your setup is inferior bc it runs a chip, t series turbo, ebay ic, and stock intake mani" 

-Me- " Proof is in the pudding. Show me something tangible that makes your setup better other than the $$ you spent" 

Spend a million dollars to make 400whp if you want. Just don't think your setups better/insult the guy that spent $3-$4k. People can see through it. Bruised ego/ pissed bc you aren't getting the accolades on the internet you thought a $10k build would buy. That's a shame 

In the words of some white trash D bag I almost blasted last weekend. "Don't start nuttin, it wont be nuttin" :laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Blah blah blah.
> 
> The only time I get into all of that is when someone insults me or my setup. I like to see people happy with the money they've spent.
> 
> ...


 I dont think you realize that your the one in every thread trying to pound your setup into everyone. "you should get a chip and be like me because im the fastest thing in the world." "why would you ever need to go faster then me?" :laugh: 

Just FYI I am very much pro chip tuning but sticking a chip in that you can get to run and cranking up the boost until it starts to lean out is not the best way to build a car. There were guys running mid 10s ten years ago using this method so your not exactly breaking new ground.


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## Stephan Schmidt (Dec 18, 2002)

I think everyone is going to agree that standalone has a lot of benifits over an out of the box tune, however I've ran C2 in 2 of my cars and I love it (specifically the cost). No headaches is nice for someone like me that doesn't want to deal with dynos, tuners, etc... 

I made 360 whp at 18psi on 92 octane pump gas on my 440 C2 tune. More than enough for me! SRI cams have been added since then so I bet I'm close to 370 ish now with room for more PSI and higher octane fuel! 

Thanks for the comparisions! 

Stephan


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## Stephan Schmidt (Dec 18, 2002)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Also my turbo is about maxed at that psi.


 Time for a new turbo to take advantage of your software!


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> I dont think you realize that your the one in every thread trying to pound your setup into everyone. "you should get a chip and be like me because im the fastest thing in the world." "why would you ever need to go faster then me?" :laugh:
> 
> Just FYI I am very much pro chip tuning but sticking a chip in that you can get to run and cranking up the boost until it starts to lean out is not the best way to build a car. There were guys running mid 10s ten years ago using this method so your not exactly breaking new ground.


 C'mon man just stop stalking him . I bet you seen this thread and thought "man i bet that little m0fo slcturbo is going to post in here and ill get'em" :laugh: Really though please stop running threads into the ground with your back and forth urinating contest. (slcturbo and TIGninja) 

To the OP thanks for side to side veiw and your 60-1 isnt big enough for either pro maf or lugtronic so lets go bigger :thumbup::beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

97VRT said:


> C'mon man just stop stalking him . I bet you seen this thread and thought "man i bet that little m0fo slcturbo is going to post in here and ill get'em" :laugh: Really though please stop running threads into the ground with your back and forth urinating contest.
> 
> To the OP thanks for side to side veiw and your 60-1 IMO isnt big enough for either pro maf or lugtronic so lets go bigger :thumbup::beer:


 Just FYI I have posted more real info then slclown ever has as far as chip tuning. Hes just here spouting off about something he knows nothing about. If you would like me to let him to continue to belittle everyone here that doesnt do everything in the same manner he has done then so be it.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> Just FYI I have posted more real info then slclown ever has as far as chip tuning. Hes just here spouting off about something he knows nothing about. If you would like me to let him to continue to belittle everyone here that doesnt do everything in the same manner he has done then so be it.


 eace:I know your the real deal TIGninja as I have read alot of your posts/threads. :thumbup::beer: Reading what I posted it does seem one sided but i was talking about both on the urinating contest thing. 

:thumbup: to the OP


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Stephan Schmidt said:


> Time for a new turbo to take advantage of your software!


 I'm going to run this season on this setup. I am having a local shop build be a custom tubular divided 3-1 with dual open wastegate setup. Should pick up even more midrange. 

Turbo will either be an HTA'd GT35R or a PT6265 :thumbup: 

Also my car made 363 on the 440 setup as well FYI.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Go with the 6265


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I vote holset, maybe a hx40, or if you really want balls to wall power hx52.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Stephan Schmidt said:


> I think everyone is going to agree that standalone has a lot of benifits over an out of the box tune, however I've ran C2 in 2 of my cars and I love it (specifically the cost). *No headaches is nice for someone like me that doesn't want to deal with dynos, tuners, etc...*
> 
> I made 360 whp at 18psi on 92 octane pump gas on my 440 C2 tune. More than enough for me! SRI cams have been added since then so I bet I'm close to 370 ish now with room for more PSI and higher octane fuel!
> 
> ...


 Another satisfied customer.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Just FYI I have posted more real info then slclown ever has as far as chip tuning. Hes just here spouting off about something he knows nothing about. If you would like me to let him to continue to belittle everyone here that doesnt do everything in the same manner he has done then so be it.


 Please list specifically what I stated that qualifies as "spouting off about something I know nothing about". 

Read my posts sir. I haven't belittled anyone that hasn't done it to me first and even then I will usually use logic vs. schoolyard insults. You follow my posts. I don't follow yours. My results are my results. If you feel belittled by them that's unfortunate. 

Your either going to accept the fact that I'm going to express my opinions on this forum just like you do or we are going to sidetrack every thread. I won't go away sir.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

97VRT said:


> C'mon man just stop stalking him . I bet you seen this thread and thought "man i bet that little m0fo slcturbo is going to post in here and ill get'em" :laugh: Really though please stop running threads into the ground with your back and forth urinating contest. (slcturbo and TIGninja)
> 
> To the OP thanks for side to side veiw and your 60-1 isnt big enough for either pro maf or lugtronic so lets go bigger :thumbup::beer:


 Amen. It's well beyond old. I find it amusing, but it does sidetrack which isn't right to everyone else on here. 

Thanks for noticing who's stalking who. It's obvious to anyone paying attention:beer:


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

to each his own everyone has there own budget likes dis-likes its life not everyone gets along lets keep it cool and on track fellas more racing less talking =]


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

JoHnsVrT said:


> to each his own everyone has there own budget likes dis-likes its life not everyone gets along lets keep it cool and on track fellas more racing less talking =]


 Exactly. So much talk about the capability to run this/make that. Less talk and more results(dyno or more importantly timeslip):beer:


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

sadly we are in the age of internet racers so the game has strayed off im just about my setup vs your setup lets see who makes it down the track faster. And for the goons that are going to say i build my 600whp car not to race than what i have to say is your dumb in my eyes.


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## Stephan Schmidt (Dec 18, 2002)

IF I HAD THE $$ I'd also go the lugtronic route. But C2 makes it SOO easy and affordable. 

Props to both companies! 

C2 :thumbup: 

Lugtronic :thumbup:


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

You guy's shouldn't focus so much on how you think people should use their car. 
Look at driveability, afr's, safety features etc etc. 
Comparing the two cost whise, when getting everything new, it's a close call. 


For example, taking al the parts *new*, (from the manufacturers site, just not the AEM stuff) the minimum you'll need for a good working setup. 

Chip route: 
Stage 4 EPROM: $599.00 
Pro MAF: $359.00 
AEM Wideband: $210 
AEM tru boost: $ 318 
*Total: $1486* 

 
Lugtronic: 
PNP Lugt.: $1327 
Boost solenoid: $ 60 
Wideband sensor: $90 
EGT sensor: $90 
*Total:$1567* 

WOW a *$81* Dollar difference 

And it will vary by location if you'll get thru emissions etc. Mayb there are some states where they check via obd port. but that doesn't count for everyone, so pounding on that as the reason to not get SA is not very usefull. 
Over here they just check emissions and a list of mechanical and electronics tests so i wouldn't have any trouble passing inspection. 
In my case it would be easier, my 42# tune barely made it thru emissions with the stock cat in place


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

That is not the true cost though. 

I paid $300 for used stage 3 630 C2 file, $60 for 4" aluminum maf housing, aem wideband from ebay new $170(not needed just for personal preference), new hbc boost controller from ebay $80, boost gauge $50. 
Total of $660 and no costs for a tuner or costs of flying a tuner out to me or no costs of needed dyno time. 
I dynoed 515 Whp at 27 psi with the afr at 11.6 
Plus I live in ny and passing emissions is crucial. They plug in via obd port and I get my sticker. 
I am in no way saying standalone is garbage. Just proving that chips are definitely cheaper, easier, and emissions friendly. 
Also my car drives perfect at any throttle, idle, wot, etc.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> That is not the true cost though.
> 
> I paid $300 for used stage 3 630 C2 file, $60 for 4" aluminum maf housing, aem wideband from ebay new $170(not needed just for personal preference), new hbc boost controller from ebay $80, boost gauge $50.
> Total of $660 and no costs for a tuner or costs of flying a tuner out to me or no costs of needed dyno time.
> ...


 Then in your case SA won't work. 

And i was talking about new prices not second hand, i could also get a second hand pnp SA wideband, egt and solenoid.:facepalm: 
Also with a basemap you would not have any tuner costs but your car will run better then on a chip.


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## Stephan Schmidt (Dec 18, 2002)

pimS said:


> You guy's shouldn't focus so much on how you think people should use their car.
> Look at driveability, afr's, safety features etc etc.
> Comparing the two cost whise, when getting everything new, it's a close call.
> 
> ...


 Those prices reflect don't reflect the true total costs. 

Add dyno time, and hours of tuning to get your car perfect with standalone. I'd say another $800-1200 for the lugtronic. C2 is plug and play.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Stephan Schmidt said:


> Those prices reflect don't reflect the true total costs.
> 
> Add dyno time, and hours of tuning to get your car perfect with standalone. I'd say another $800-1200 for the lugtronic. C2 is plug and play.


 Yes there are some additional costs..... 

Not another 800-1200 though, that is completely over the top. 

2-3 Hours of renting a dyno (2-300$) 

2-3 Tuner time (200-400$) 

Additional 400-700$ max


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

Read again. The only thing I bought used was the chip. 
Who says a standalone base map will run better. You can't get any better than perfect(how my car runs on C2 software).


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I would kind of be interested to see similar results with the 12V Uni file.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Read again. The only thing I bought used was the chip.
> Who says a standalone base map will run better. You can't get any better than perfect(how my car runs on C2 software).


It has been mentioned here more than once that a basemap was running better than a chip.
How do you know that your car runs perfect? you are just taking it as it is, you don't know what your car could feel like on standalone because you simply haven't tried anything else.

It was one of the big +points the OP mentioned about driving on standalone.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not that big pro-standalone guy.
I'm running a 42#chip right know, but it has it's nags and flaws, so i'm looking further.
Also, i'm dreading the moment that i'll have trouble running my car and have to ask for help, it's always the same BS. It can't be the holy chip it's always the hardware.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

pimS said:


> It can't be the holy chip it's always the hardware.


I have got that one a few times.... Or your MAF and O2.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

JoHnsVrT said:


> sadly we are in the age of internet racers so the game has strayed off im just about my setup vs your setup lets see who makes it down the track faster. And for the goons that are going to say i build my 600whp car not to race than what i have to say is your dumb in my eyes.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I have got that one a few times.... Or your MAF and O2.


Didn't run perfect? Sell it and go standalone. You paid $300 and spent 10 min installing the chip. Worth a try. Yoou can really only gain.

Some cars run very well on chip tunes.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> It has been mentioned here more than once that a basemap was running better than a chip.
> How do you know that your car runs perfect? you are just taking it as it is, you don't know what your car could feel like on standalone because you simply haven't tried anything else.
> 
> It was one of the big +points the OP mentioned about driving on standalone.
> ...


What tune? Maybe try a US market ecu for $50. Worth a try. I'll give you my ecu pn if you want.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> Didn't run perfect? Sell it and go standalone. You paid $300 and spent 10 min installing the chip. Worth a try. Yoou can really only gain.
> 
> Some cars run very well on chip tunes.


I don't need you to talk to me like this. I am only about 2 tenths off you on a smaller turbo and a 30# chip. I went faster than you when you were on the 30# chip. Proof is in my sig, where is yours???


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Didn't run perfect? Sell it and go standalone. You paid $300 and spent 10 min installing the chip. Worth a try. Yoou can really only gain.
> 
> Some cars run very well on chip tunes.


Why not just do it right the first time? Your logic is flawed.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> What tune? Maybe try a US market ecu for $50. Worth a try. I'll give you my ecu pn if you want.


prrt guess a euro tune? don't have 2 x 02 sensor. But thats about the only difference i think.

Nah i don't think i'm gonna try another chip, i also like to tigger, so standalone is my next step.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Didn't run perfect? Sell it and go standalone. You paid $300 and spent 10 min installing the chip. Worth a try. Yoou can really only gain.
> 
> Some cars run very well on chip tunes.


 You see what I mean? This is such a pointless post. Did GinsterMan98 make you mad with his veiw. Send him a IM and stop running these threads into the ground with pointless condescending posts

Good day Sir..........(You trying to talk)................... I said good day Sir! :laugh:

to the OP bags aren't just for groceries anymore hint hint. eace: to ALL


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Yes there are some additional costs.....
> 
> Not another 800-1200 though, that is completely over the top.
> 
> ...


2-3 hours of dyno time (usually closer to two for just tune,if you want boost by gear and everything else it will be closer to three). This costs $140/hr here and the tuner is free and hes good. If you want someone to sit around and cheer or goat you to turn up the boost thats a $20 one time charge P :beer: ).


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## EugeneDubbin (Aug 31, 2008)

*...*

Hey OP, go 6265. Or the gtx 35 is nice, you're going divided housing option, right?







slcturbo said:


> Didn't run perfect? Sell it and go standalone. You paid $300 and spent 10 min installing the chip. Worth a try. Yoou can really only gain.
> 
> Some cars run very well on chip tunes.



As for you.  

Ya know, someone told me once that if someone says you're an ass, ignore them. If 3-4 or more well educated people call you an ass, you might want to get fitted for a saddle.

I have no problem with you defending your method, but seriously? No one else is saying a damn thing about your ebay car or bringing you into the discussion except you. We're here to exchange real information and, here's the catch, _improve_ our cars. I don't give a damn what you spent, or plan to spend or that a chip worked for you or didn't. It's not relevant here. This thread is about the OP and his experience going from C2 to Lugtronic.



> -"Your setup is inferior bc it runs a chip, t series turbo, ebay ic, and stock intake mani"
> 
> -Me- " Proof is in the pudding. Show me something tangible that makes your setup better other than the $$ you spent"
> 
> ...


And as long as you have no relevant information to contribute to this discussion (parroting data you only read that is already somewhere on the forums doesn't make you look cool, just like a tool), stop posting. You don't belong in the FI forums, you're not tuning anything, you're using a chip and ebay. You're oh-so grown up about your insecurities related to that, we all get it that you'd have liked to spend your money better than you did and that you're jealous of everyone with standalone.

I'm extremely sick and tired of seeing you reply to each post individually. It's obvious you're trying to whore up your post count. Use the multiple quote and reply button and do it right stop posting inane repetitive crap that everyone's sick of. No one was attacking you or your setup until you came in running your mouth, and I STILL don't think anyone has said anything about your ebay commitment. Mark Twain once said "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

In sum,

Go play in the mk4 forums, seems about your age group/tuning ability.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

97VRT said:


> to the OP bags aren't just for groceries anymore hint hint. eace: to ALL


I'm fairly low on coilovers, and happy with it. I like to drive my car hard, bags are only for MY groceries lol.



EugeneDubbin said:


> Hey OP, go 6265. Or the gtx 35 is nice, you're going divided housing option, right?


Yeah I will probably go with the PT6265 since its 1/2 the price of the GT35R


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Yeah I will probably go with the PT6265 since its 1/2 the price of the GT35R


I have seen good things from that turbo, thats the one I want to run some day.:thumbup:


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

62/65 works pretty well


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Jump for joy! I am so pissed I could not go.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Hey Kev!

You and Todd/Mark/Boys going to get that ish box back together for the 10th?


Love to see you guys get out there with Marc and give him a run :thumbup:


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## SpOoOling1.8T (Dec 12, 2004)

So what was your fueling issue? bad pump?


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

i bought my standalone yesterday :wave: thanks kev:thumbup: .....lol its going on a 1.8t not a vr .. but for what its worth my old (2005) 36lb vrt tune was ok i ran really rich under boost 13 psi on a 60-1 stock compression and fueling ....it bucked pretty hard under moderate acceleration @3.5k .. other than that it was fun and pretty reliable ..wanted to go more but my car was hit by a drunk driver lol

not to mention i did beat a twin STS c5 vette with my vrt lol he panicked when i jumped on him then he mashed the throttle and it was all over for him .. pulled on him hard ..lol

i have played a lot with the bt off the shelf 1.8t software so in a couple of month i will be able to compare "bt chipped" vs stand alone 1.8t stuff


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

SpOoOling1.8T said:


> So what was your fueling issue? bad pump?


Believe it to be the FPR. I got an aeromotive one now to put in. We replaced the inline pump with a 044. Other than that it might be the intank pump, which I also have another of. Will take more logs this weekend and figure it out after I put the new FPR in.


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## SpOoOling1.8T (Dec 12, 2004)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Believe it to be the FPR. I got an aeromotive one now to put in. We replaced the inline pump with a 044. Other than that it might be the intank pump, which I also have another of. Will take more logs this weekend and figure it out after I put the new FPR in.


Keep us updated. When Kevin was tuning my VRT w sds car was going lean at 7psi made 305whp but we had to pull of .. Got another walbro gonna do some testing :facepalm:


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

The real test is how does this (Lugtronic) compare to something like DTA...

Can anyone shed some light on this?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I have never used the DTA stuff but I will tell you this. The new lugtronic software,the new MS software,and the new haltech software are very similar and very user friendly. This is the key to big power.


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

I am building my mk2 vrt, but I am trying to finish the motor first before I get the management.

When I found Lugtronic I was pretty stoked. I did wonder how it was compared to DTA, Haltech, Motec ect...Everyone that has installed it, tuned it, and ran it seems to be very pleased with it. 

The older version of this was similar to megasquirt correct? The new version is stand alone?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

EugeneDubbin said:


> Hey OP, go 6265. Or the gtx 35 is nice, you're going divided housing option, right?
> 
> 
> As for you.


Nice novel. 

I state my opinion based on my experience just like everyone else. I also back it up with facts such as what the car runs, what I spent, the power it makes, etc. I don't care who agrees, likes it, etc. It is what it is. People take from it what they want. 

If certain people want to quote me directly, argue with my logic, take shots at my setup, even insults then yeah you're gonna hear more from me and the thread will likely get sidetracked.

This is a vs. thread. It's not a Lugtronic thread. Don't want opinions? Don't start a thread in a public forum.:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

procket2_8 said:


> I am building my mk2 vrt, but I am trying to finish the motor first before I get the management.
> 
> When I found Lugtronic I was pretty stoked. I did wonder how it was compared to DTA, Haltech, Motec ect...Everyone that has installed it, tuned it, and ran it seems to be very pleased with it.
> 
> The older version of this was similar to megasquirt correct? The new version is stand alone?


The older version was actually different hardware that used MS software. Since then they have developed their own much better software.

I know DTA has been around a while which is not really a good thing. The developments in software over the last few years make alot of the new stuff very good.


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

I like all of the features and available things for the Lugtronic, it is really the only SA system that has a 44psi built in map sensor. All the other stop at 30 psi and you have to buy an external map.

I am interested in buying one of those fancy displays for my car. I was researching Haltech and there system is pretty nice too.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Feb 16, 2010)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Read again. The only thing I bought used was the chip.
> Who says a standalone base map will run better. You can't get any better than perfect(how my car runs on C2 software).


then obviously you have not had a basemap prepared for you by Kevin..... those of you in the know, well you understand. new motor, GT35R on a manifold built by the infamous Chuck B, 1000cc injectors, C-16, way ported out head, fires up and idles smoother than a stock car ever coould, first try.



procket2_8 said:


> I like all of the features and available things for the Lugtronic, it is really the only SA system that has a 44psi built in map sensor. All the other stop at 30 psi and you have to buy an external map.
> 
> I am interested in buying one of those fancy displays for my car. I was researching Haltech and there system is pretty nice too.


and actually it is not the only one that has a built in MAP sensor for >30psi. the standalone unit I sourced from Kevin, wire harness by Kevin, base-mapped by Kevin, tuned by Kevin, welllllll it has the ability to go just a little bit higher than 30psi.... on the same setup as i mentioned above. it was from before he decided to make his own setup, but he still supports it to this day.

the service in that instance is worth alot.


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

and actually it is not the only one that has a built in MAP sensor for >30psi. the standalone unit I sourced from Kevin, wire harness by Kevin, base-mapped by Kevin, tuned by Kevin, welllllll it has the ability to go just a little bit higher than 30psi.... on the same setup as i mentioned above. it was from before he decided to make his own setup, but he still supports it to this day.

the service in that instance is worth a lot.

That is really good to know. I appreciate all the input. My car will have a similar setup as yours. Built 3 Liter, oversized valves, 263 cams, gt3582r. Im not looking for a record breaking car, just something to enjoy and be proud of. I don't really plan on going to the rack, but the car is just for me. I am investing a truck load of cash into it tho, so I didn't want to skimp on management and kill an expensive motor.

Thanks again!


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Good to see real evidence of what tuning optimization can do. I had an EIP tune in my 12v turbo car starting in 2003 and tired of lack of adjust-ability when increasing boost. I switched to MSNSe (built and tuned myself for a pittance) with the 60lbs injectors that later showed up in the C2 lineup. I guess I don't have much to add other than if you go to Lugtronic or MSNSe then you can bump those injectors up to 87psi of pressure for flow of 85lbs/hr. With all other things being equal, if you have enough fuel pump behind the injectors then the max power of the system will be higher with Lugtronic than the C2 shelf tune as you will be able to boost more and lower the injector pulsewidth.


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## highbeam (Oct 3, 2003)

I'm considering buying a Lugtronic for my 96 GTi wondering has anyone had ANY problems with it? Do all the creature comforts still work I.e a/c, everything on the cluster etc. Any information would be appreciated.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

For critical, factual answers like that I would contact Kevin/Lugtronic directly. That way there is no mistake.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

highbeam said:


> I'm considering buying a Lugtronic for my 96 GTi wondering has anyone had ANY problems with it? Do all the creature comforts still work I.e a/c, everything on the cluster etc. Any information would be appreciated.


Everything will work on a 96 GTI. The only thing I could think of that may not work are some of the displays on the MFA if you have it.


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## highbeam (Oct 3, 2003)

DieGTi said:


> For critical, factual answers like that I would contact Kevin/Lugtronic directly. That way there is no mistake.


I have contacted him, haven't gotten a reply as of yet. So I figured I'd talk to the people that already have it running in their cars already.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

sp_golf said:


> Everything will work on a 96 GTI. The only thing I could think of that may not work are some of the displays on the MFA if you have it.


:thumbup: here is your answer


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

With that its only the mpg, everything else should work.


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## Nuzzi (Oct 18, 2001)

i apologize if this is too far off track but im interested to hear any comparisons of lugtronic vs ms3. ill be going SA this summer and will be choosing one of those, obviously ms3 is alot cheaper but at what cost? thanks. im obd1 so no emissions scan


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## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

highbeam said:


> I'm considering buying a Lugtronic for my 96 GTi wondering has anyone had ANY problems with it? Do all the creature comforts still work I.e a/c, everything on the cluster etc. Any information would be appreciated.



you can keep all of your factory stuff.. i have MFA in my car. I do not have a/c but it is def possible to keep it. also everything works in my cluster from the vems. Just uses a 1k pullup to the tach from vems

the New VEMS TUNE is very nice. and with all the built ins and options, VEMS > DTA


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## highbeam (Oct 3, 2003)

Thanks for all the input fellas... I'm leaning toward it just wonder how hard it is to get on his sched??


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## somebodynowhere (Feb 11, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> 1475 for the ecu and plug and play harness + extras if you want them + tuning and travel costs for the tuner + renting a local dyno for a couple hours.
> 
> But your car will run the best it ever has.:thumbup:


how does the plug and play harness fit in the car...I'm going lugtronic soon and I'm not sure if I should dish out the couple hundred extra for a custom harness


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

My Lugtronic Plug and play ECU from my obd1 ecu is forsale... 

reason:
(Parking the car for a while for my NEW build and getting married soon as well so I can use the money elsewhere... ) search my screenname for the thread if interested...

Paolo


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

somebodynowhere said:


> how does the plug and play harness fit in the car...I'm going lugtronic soon and I'm not sure if I should dish out the couple hundred extra for a custom harness


I didn't need to, not sure about the custom harness deal. Ask Kevin about that.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

the Plug and Play is a short harness to convert the Lugtronic to a stock harness. For the advanced user it can be sent without the Lugtronic connector on one side to run thru raintray to cabin. The custom harness, is entirely custom, built to customers spec.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

If Kev is Capt. Kirk, Bonez is Mr. Spok :laugh:

:heart: this thread. Thank you OP :thumbup:
You did what any nature car head would do. Sure it cost you more but in the end, you can't put a price on perfection. you also took a step further and collected data along the way. I think it's no different then a person dumping money in an ABA just to swap it out for a VR.

I hope you sold the C2 stuff to recoup some of the money.

I too will be making this transition in the future. I haven't ran the Pro-MAF C2 630 that i have but when i out grow that, Lugtronics will be next.:thumbup:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> If Kev is Capt. Kirk, Bonez is Mr. Spok :laugh:
> 
> :heart: this thread. Thank you OP :thumbup:
> You did what any nature car head would do. Sure it cost you more but in the end, you can't put a price on perfection. you also took a step further and collected data along the way. I think it's no different then a person dumping money in an ABA just to swap it out for a VR.
> ...


Not a problem, I figured I'd gone through the head aches, might save a few others from it. Also the fuel issues are fixed now, so the next time Kevin is down this way we are going to see what this thing really puts down.:thumbup:


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## snobum (Dec 16, 2005)

how much timing?? lugnuts vs c2


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I think it's no different then a person dumping money in an ABA just to swap it out for a VR.


Sure you want to go there? :laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

PjS860ct said:


> My Lugtronic Plug and play ECU from my obd1 ecu is forsale...
> 
> reason:
> (Parking the car for a while for my NEW build and getting married soon as well so I can use the money elsewhere... ) search my screenname for the thread if interested...
> ...


Good luck to you:beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

PjS860ct said:


> My Lugtronic Plug and play ECU from my obd1 ecu is forsale...
> 
> reason:
> (Parking the car for a while for my NEW build and getting married soon as well so I can use the money elsewhere... ) search my screenname for the thread if interested...
> ...


That sucks man, always liked your car. Hope your next build goes well.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> Good luck to you:beer:


Thanks!



GinsterMan98 said:


> That sucks man, always liked your car. Hope your next build goes well.


the car will stay the same, just with a better setup that is sitting in the garage  hopefully it will be done by the fall... 

ill probably be keeping my lugtronic as everybody that wants it is either obd2 or wants to pay 600 for everything... :screwy: :laugh:


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

suprised i thought you would get more obd1 guys. with all the mk2 swaps and such i figured there were more obd1 guys..

that or there are a ton of obd2 c2 guys who are just unhappy.

maybe its a sign


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## FalmouthMK5 (Jun 26, 2008)

Zach, I thought you were running a different FPR and Inline pump between the two? or am I mistaken?


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

FalmouthMK5 said:


> Zach, I thought you were running a different FPR and Inline pump between the two? or am I mistaken?


FPR was changed after this, it was the fuel problem I described in the original post. Otherwise I would have pit down more power.

Haven't been back to the dyno since the fueling issues were fixed. Also added cams now, should be in the 450-475 range now.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

thecorradokid24 said:


> I know my car isn't a crazy 500whp VRT but lugtronic made more power over C2 Chip on my car, not to mention the drive ability is so much better now.


sounds like you're getting close :thumbup:

how's the trans holding up?


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

wabbitGTl said:


> sounds like you're getting close :thumbup:
> 
> how's the trans holding up?


Trans has held up fine, no issues yet. Had a 5th gear fail, but that wasn't related to anything to do power wise, one of the bolts holding the gear in wasn't torqued and backed out.


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## FalmouthMK5 (Jun 26, 2008)

thecorradokid24 said:


> FPR was changed after this, it was the fuel problem I described in the original post. Otherwise I would have pit down more power.
> 
> Haven't been back to the dyno since the fueling issues were fixed. Also added cams now, should be in the 450-475 range now.


What about the inline?


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

FalmouthMK5 said:


> What about the inline?


What about it? An 044 was replaced with an 044.

The power is in the timing.


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## FalmouthMK5 (Jun 26, 2008)

I was just confused about the timing I guess. I thought you changed the pump out AFTER the 630 runs but before the Lugtronics runs. My bad, I was just confused.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Anyone see United's website lately. 1000 crank hp from a *CHIP* E85 tune. :beer: 

It was 826awhp and that wasn't even peak as they couldn't stop the tires from spinning on the dyno. 

http://unitedmotorsport.net/2010/12/27/united-motorsports-e-85-software/


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Looks like its a custom chip tune, not a plug and play chip


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> Looks like its a custom chip tune, not a plug and play chip


 Still a chip on a stock ecu:beer:


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Still a chip on a stock ecu:beer:


 Nobody ever said that a stock ecu can't do the job.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Still a chip on a stock ecu:beer:


 Says the chip tuning expert that has never tuned.LOL Its a custom chip tune you fool.


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Anyone see United's website lately. 1000 crank hp from a *CHIP* E85 tune. :beer:
> 
> It was 826awhp and that wasn't even peak as they couldn't stop the tires from spinning on the dyno.
> 
> http://unitedmotorsport.net/2010/12/27/united-motorsports-e-85-software/


 Impressive but read every comment below, also this a 630 vs lugtronic thread. The generic chip vs the world stuff belongs in the other thread. 



pimS said:


> Looks like its a custom chip tune, not a plug and play chip





pimS said:


> Nobody ever said that a stock ecu can't do the job.





TIGninja said:


> Says the chip tuning expert that has never tuned.LOL Its a custom chip tune you fool.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Says the chip tuning expert that has never tuned.LOL Its a custom chip tune you fool.


 
Nice insult:laugh: 

Post reported:thumbup:


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Nice insult:laugh:
> 
> Post reported:thumbup:


 They must be sick of you by now. You start trouble in everyones thread and then go crying to the moderators every time someone says anything. Grow up already.


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

buddy's c2 630 car melted down last night 

pulling apart today to see what happened. looks like a melted piston


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> They must be sick of you by now. You start trouble in everyones thread and then go crying to the moderators every time someone says anything. Grow up already.


 Expressing an opinion you don't happen to agree with isn't starting trouble. 

Personal insults are waste of time and have no place here. They'll be reported every time:thumbup:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

pileofredparts said:


> buddy's c2 630 car melted down last night
> 
> pulling apart today to see what happened. looks like a melted piston


 That's what I was worried about with mine...


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

pileofredparts said:


> buddy's c2 630 car melted down last night
> 
> pulling apart today to see what happened. looks like a melted piston


 OE stock cars melt pistons too, i wouldn't be too quick to blame the tune but anythings possible


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

.therealvrt said:


> OE stock cars melt pistons too, i wouldn't be too quick to blame the tune but anythings possible


 this was a fresh $3k block ran all last summer on low boost 
this year it lasted 500 miles on 20psi 

teardown tonight


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## FalmouthMK5 (Jun 26, 2008)

.therealvrt said:


> OE stock cars melt pistons too, i wouldn't be too quick to blame the tune but anythings possible


 Any car that is tuned that has ANY problem, the tune always get blamed. Doesnt matter if its a 2008 2.0t with a stage 1 tune or a 12v VR with a GT35, if theres ANY problem with the car, people always point fingers at the tune first.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

A clogged injector will ruin your season.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> A clogged injector will ruin your season.


 Or a weak fuel pump that intermittently doesn't supply enough fuel. It goes on and on.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Or a weak fuel pump that intermittently doesn't supply enough fuel. It goes on and on.


 Brings me back to my cis days when it sometimes had enough pressure to start, sometimes it didnt.:banghead:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Brings me back to my cis days when it sometimes had enough pressure to start, sometimes it didnt.:banghead:


 Some tunes are better than others, but the tune is static. It's a program. If the motor didn't blow up on the first hundred pulls/passes etc. then maybe something else caused the failure.


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

well he was running 20psi on a stock block, same car with the 42lb C2 chip, no problems for years 
on the 630cc tune he has torched 2 blocks, one stock, one built 

so either he has a faulty injector or an issue with the tune 


one piston was torched right through


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

pileofredparts said:


> well he was running 20psi on a stock block, same car with the 42lb C2 chip, no problems for years
> on the 630cc tune he has torched 2 blocks, one stock, one built
> 
> so either he has a faulty injector or an issue with the tune
> ...


 Does he have a wideband and/or egt gauge?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

DieGTi said:


> Does he have a wideband and/or egt gauge?


 X2 on that info.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

pileofredparts said:


> on the 630cc tune he has torched 2 blocks, one stock, one built


 Scary. Is the file Pro-MAF or non?


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## FalmouthMK5 (Jun 26, 2008)

pileofredparts said:


> well he was running 20psi on a stock block, same car with the 42lb C2 chip, no problems for years
> on the 630cc tune he has torched 2 blocks, one stock, one built
> 
> so either he has a faulty injector or an issue with the tune
> ...


 or fpr, or inline, or intank ....


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Scary. Is the file Pro-MAF or non?


 Going go ahead and guess non-promaf. I think the stock maf is flying blind at 400+


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## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

FalmouthMK5 said:


> or fpr, or inline, or intank ....


 all brand new, and tested recently


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## FalmouthMK5 (Jun 26, 2008)

pileofredparts said:


> all brand new, and tested recently


 So all that was "tested" but noone bothered to flow test the injectors?


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

To the OP: Great info :thumbup: 

I hope you continue to enjoy the tractability and tunability a good standalone can offer. It's the bedrock for any future tuning and you certainly won't regret the outlay  



procket2_8 said:


> The real test is how does this (Lugtronic) compare to something like DTA...
> 
> Can anyone shed some light on this?


 I run a DTA S80 on my VRT and if someone wants to ship a Lugtronic over to the UK for me to test, I will happily provide you with some emperical data  

What kind of data are you looking for by the way? Whp v whp? Drivability? Drivability is entirely subjective. Some people are picky about idle smoothness, some people aren't. Whp v whp is more tangible but even then you can't guarantee 2 identical cars will produce the same hp on the same day, but I guess you're looking to see what a DTA could do compared to a Lug' with the same map? 

Thing is though, a $1000 DTA or Lugtronic could make the same numbers as a $40,000 Bosch MS 5.2 ECU. They are just computers and simply do what they are told. What you should be comparing is the 'Liveware'. I.e. The ability of the mapper. 

It's like an amatuer Golfer turning up with a $2000 set of Mizuno blades on his first day and he can't swing for schitt. Forget the brand, focus on the map. 

I would use a Lugtronic myself as I really like the plug and play side of it but the distance and time zone difference just wouldn't work for me.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

c2 630 vs lugtronic 

if the stock ecu is tuned to say 17degree timing at 20psi and the lugtronic is tuned 17 degree timing or dta motec vems megasquirt etc is tuned to 17degree timing at 20psi 
and the fuel map is tuned to give 11.8 afr on all theses ecus 
what ecu will give most power on the same car


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> c2 630 vs lugtronic
> 
> if the stock ecu is tuned to say 17degree timing at 20psi and the lugtronic is tuned 17 degree timing or dta motec vems megasquirt etc is tuned to 17degree timing at 20psi
> and the fuel map is tuned to give 11.8 afr on all theses ecus
> what ecu will give most power on the same car


 Depends on what your using for fuel. The motronic car at that point on pump gas should be hammering the crap out of the knock sensor but still be alive. The standalones can run E85 and should be able to do much better.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> Depends on what your using for fuel. The motronic car at that point on pump gas should be hammering the crap out of the knock sensor but still be alive. The standalones can run E85 and should be able to do much better.


 ok say all based on a vr6 with 8.5.1 compresion with same fuel same hour temp conditions


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

they will all give the same power


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

OP clear some space in your inbox, trying to send you a PM


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

KubotaPowered said:


> OP clear some space in your inbox, trying to send you a PM


Try it now...


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> they will all give the same power


Oh BS. My car must be super extraordinary then. I made more power then I have ever heard of with a aba on 91 pump and stock compression. I did 320whp on dynojet. This took about 10 dyno pulls to get there and there is no way you will ever be able to do that with an off the shelf chip tune. Any decent tuner will be able to gain power over the off the shelf chip tune with a standalone.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> Oh BS. My car must be super extraordinary then. I made more power then I have ever heard of with a aba on 91 pump and stock compression. I did 320whp on dynojet. This took about 10 dyno pulls to get there and there is no way you will ever be able to do that with an off the shelf chip tune. Any decent tuner will be able to gain power over the off the shelf chip tune with a standalone.


:thumbup: exactly :beer:


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> Oh BS. My car must be super extraordinary then. I made more power then I have ever heard of with a aba on 91 pump and stock compression. I did 320whp on dynojet. This took about 10 dyno pulls to get there and there is no way you will ever be able to do that with an off the shelf chip tune. Any decent tuner will be able to gain power over the off the shelf chip tune with a standalone.


He was saying that if all 3 provided the same fuel and timing at the same boost level with all other variables the same, they would make the same power, which is true.

Obviously that will never be the case though.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

djsheijkdfj said:


> He was saying that if all 3 provided the same fuel and timing at the same boost level with all other variables the same, they would make the same power, which is true.
> 
> Obviously that will never be the case though.


exactly :thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> Depends on what your using for fuel. The motronic car at that point on pump gas should be* hammering the crap out of the knock sensor* but still be alive. The standalones can run E85 and should be able to do much better.


True statement, lol.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

EugeneDubbin said:


> Ya know, someone told me once that if someone says you're an ass, ignore them. If 3-4 or more well educated people call you an ass, you might want to get fitted for a saddle.


HAHA... you my friend have made it into my sig:thumbup:

Ok, now why did we need another one of this same thread so it could be turned into exactly what the other one was?..... :screwy:


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

kevhayward said:


> To the OP: Great info :thumbup:
> 
> I hope you continue to enjoy the tractability and tunability a good standalone can offer. It's the bedrock for any future tuning and you certainly won't regret the outlay
> 
> ...


I was looking head to head...all around performance and options. I am one of those people that are nervous about trying new things, but I want something where the tech support is close to home. DTA being in the UK is far from me, although I will be over there from time to time because of work.

I guess I was more curious computer speeds, map sizes, and how well the options - boost by gear/speed, and things work. I am not trying to make a world record VRT but I do plan on hitting 650 whp with a fully built 3 liter.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

procket2_8 said:


> I am not trying to make a world record VRT but I do plan on hitting 650 whp with a fully built 3 liter.


Welcome to the club!


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

procket2_8 said:


> I was looking head to head...all around performance and options. I am one of those people that are nervous about trying new things, but I want something where the tech support is close to home. DTA being in the UK is far from me, although I will be over there from time to time because of work.
> 
> I guess I was more curious computer speeds, map sizes, and how well the options - boost by gear/speed, and things work. I am not trying to make a world record VRT but I do plan on hitting 650 whp with a fully built 3 liter.


to make that goal on a chip you will need a custom file for either e85 or race gas. it's not gonna happen on pump gas even with meth.
i am assuming that you have a 12v and not 24v


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## Romerid3r (Jan 3, 2009)

thats weird i have 440's nd 60-1 nd dyno'd 400+whp on 19psi on c2


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Romerid3r said:


> thats weird i have 440's nd 60-1 nd dyno'd 400+whp on 19psi on c2


On a very hot a humid day? T3 or T4 hotside? Stock motor? Setups vary, so do dyno's.


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

.therealvrt said:


> to make that goal on a chip you will need a custom file for either e85 or race gas. it's not gonna happen on pump gas even with meth.
> i am assuming that you have a 12v and not 24v



No I m going to run standalone. I am not chipping the car, nor am I going to run all pump gas.

650 whp is not practical in a mk2 gti, i realize that. I want that to be a dyno queen number and run about 450 whp daily.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Im happy with the Pro-Maf setup. Ive never dynoed it, but for a street car with fwd its enough for me. The driveability is not 100%. That can be a lot off things, but I think my setup is starting to be pretty good.
Then again, its so tempting to go Lugtronic. I see there is a Vems tuner a couple off hours away from me. They push over 800whp on old inline Audi 20v 5cyl engines with T4 0.81 6266 turbos..

Hmm.. See what the future brings


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## AlexiGTIVR6 (Jul 21, 2000)

Im also very happy with my UM promaf tune. Car drives awesome and im happy with 519whp at 23ish psi

I am building another VRt with with a bit more HP in mind and I have a Lugtronic set up going in that


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

AlexiGTIVR6 said:


> Im also very happy with my UM promaf tune. Car drives awesome and im happy with 519whp at 23ish psi
> 
> I am building another VRt with with a bit more HP in mind and I have a Lugtronic set up going in that


U got PM


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## vr6turbomada (Jul 22, 2010)

*lugtronic*

I'm running lugtronic, on a coilpack OBD1 VR6 swap mk2 syncro, base map with little modifications, at around 0.7b-0.9b , i did 12.5sec quarter shifting at 5800rpm, after 5800rpm, it's a little bit lean so i didn't want go further, i believe at 1.2bar, 7Krpm shifting, should be 11.5sec . 

It came with 630cc and boost by gear .


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## vwmaniac16vr6 (Nov 17, 2004)

If the tables have the same values you will make the same power, an off the shelf tune will never compare to a properly steet/dyno tuned me7 or newer ecu. If you were to retrofit an emulater into a motronic ecu you can tune live just like a standalone for much less therefore more accurately tuning the management system. Off the shelf:thumbdown: properly tuned me7 ftw its nice to have safety features like knock sensors, having scanable car for inspection in some states and fully functional gauge cluster and cruise control.


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