# Who is using VVT to make power?



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

I've seen one or two users say they are using VVT to make power. Who all is doing this, what results have you had, what head setup are you running, reliability; any tensioner failures?

I'm in the process of installing an AEB head on my AWP motor. Until recently I was going to just use the AEB tensioner but saw a thread by Badger5 (sorry can't find it) saying they saw gains across the board engaging VVT on his 1.8t. and even small gains (low-midrange) on a k03 equipped car.

Secondly how does one go about engaging & deactivating the solenoid that controls VVT. I'm using Eurodyne Maestro I don't think there is any feature in the software to utilize VVT but if enough interest I'm sure they would write it in if they can.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

034 is doing it.

http://blog.034motorsport.com/tuning/dyno-testing-cat-3658-camshafts-with-vvt-cam-adjuster/

http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=138467013226



> After receiving a fresh set of Cat Cams 3658 Billet Camshafts, we were able to do some dyno testing and determine the viability of utilizing the factory 1.8T VVT cam tensioner to improve the powerband of our Time Attack B5 Audi A4.
> 
> We verified clearance for up to 30 degrees of advance on the intake camshaft (the VVT tensioner itself only provides about 22 degrees of advance) on our 2.2L stroker motor with the 3658s, plugged in the VVT tensioner to our 034EFI Stage IIc Standalone ECU, and got to work.
> 
> ...


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## machx0r (Feb 25, 2001)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Secondly how does one go about engaging & deactivating the solenoid that controls VVT. I'm using Eurodyne Maestro I don't think there is any feature in the software to utilize VVT but if enough interest I'm sure they would write it in if they can.


I know nothing about Maestro and whether or not it has to ability to add "general purpose" IO so can't comment on that. However the VVT tensioner has a simple solenoid so "controlling" it is as easy as applying 12V or not. At least this was my understanding when I tore mine down. I never actually measured the voltage coming from the ECU to the solenoid.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

There maybe different version of the VVT solenoid. I believe all transverse are simple on/off type and there stock management uses them as such. I've 'heard' some longitudinal applications use it beyond the on/off. This implies the solenoid is capable of more than 2 positions and management can control it. 

Maybe a partnumber search can shed some light.
edit: a quick look tells me they are the same part (058109088E). So, no difference. 

But I'm pretty certain a transverse solenoid is only capable of 2 positions. And I have no tuning knowedge as to whether on/off control can produce gains.

And yes, it's a 12v signal.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Even if your tune doesn't call for it, you could potentially utilize the VVT using secondary electronics such as a MST RPM activated window switch

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8969/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-830452/

Have the VVT turn on at x RPM and turn off at y RPM


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## JVK (Dec 20, 2009)

groggory said:


> 034 is doing it.
> 
> http://blog.034motorsport.com/tuning/dyno-testing-cat-3658-camshafts-with-vvt-cam-adjuster/
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=138467013226


I have also tryed the VVT on a 300hp setup with 2860RS turbo and stock cam's. We did see a quicker spool and a better midrange!

Could be cool to try but i need to be sure there are room for it

Do you know anybody who is useing the VVT with cat cam's 1013775? 

Best regards from
Jacob


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

The VVT on these cars is backwards from vtec? or not? If so the only real point woild be to have the extra exhaust to spool a BT quicker, or get a huge tq spike from a K04 and break something...
Otherwise making power with this would be nominal, right? splicing in a window switch would be a simple affair I could use the one from my No2 setup, but I doubt it would be worth it. Might try it anyways and see if I break something gives me an excuse to build a stroker this winter.


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## JVK (Dec 20, 2009)

DMVDUB said:


> The VVT on these cars is backwards from vtec? or not? If so the only real point woild be to have the extra exhaust to spool a BT quicker, or get a huge tq spike from a K04 and break something...
> Otherwise making power with this would be nominal, right? splicing in a window switch would be a simple affair I could use the one from my No2 setup, but I doubt it would be worth it. Might try it anyways and see if I break something gives me an excuse to build a stroker this winter.


On the 2860RS setup it worked very good. Sad i dont have the dyno run with and with out VVT.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

If Eurodyne/ Unitronic can build it into custom software tunes, that'd be rad.

Standalone can already build it into tunes.

I can see window switches on the VVT as the next big trend in extreme ME7 1.8t applications running cams and BT.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

would there be any point on a k04 car? minimal counts as a point just not much of one. I'm thinking of hooking up my window switch to try it before I install the s60 I just don't want a tq spike to break something. I could set it to com on at 5000 rpms would that make the k04 hold boost longer?


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## old guy2 (May 30, 2010)

Has anyone provided a log of the EGT's running that much overlap? I would think you would get some significantly elevated temperatures with the VVT advance/overlap on a fully up to temp motor.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

old guy2 said:


> Has anyone provided a log of the EGT's running that much overlap? I would think you would get some significantly elevated temperatures with the VVT advance/overlap on a fully up to temp motor.


It's a pretty new thing. If anyone wants to help break new ground I would think an EGT probe would be essential! for testing


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

groggory said:


> If Eurodyne/ Unitronic can build it into custom software tunes, that'd be rad.


 If you know what you are doing with Motronic you can activate. 034 activates it in there 2.7TT software


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

After receiving a fresh set of Cat Cams 3658 Billet Camshafts, we were able to do some dyno testing and determine the viability of utilizing the factory 1.8T VVT cam tensioner to improve the powerband of our Time Attack B5 Audi A4.

We verified clearance for up to 30 degrees of advance on the intake camshaft (the VVT tensioner itself only provides about 22 degrees of advance) on our 2.2L stroker motor with the 3658s, plugged in the VVT tensioner to our 034EFI Stage IIc Standalone ECU, and got to work.



> Turning on the VVT tensioner resulted in about ~400 RPM quicker spool, and solid power gains up to ~6200 RPM. We netted gains of over 60 foot-pounds of torque at the wheels at ~4000 RPM.
> 
> Take a look at the dyno chart below, which compares one pull with the VVT tensioner turned off for the entire pull, and one pull with the VVT tensioner turned on for the entire pull.
> 
> ...


Well I guess there would be no benefit to me, I'm not dumping $6-800 on cams. I'd be highly interested in being able to decrease my spool time. For a street car I still have enough head room to grow for top end






Issam Abed said:


> If you know what you are doing with Motronic you can activate. 034 activates it in there 2.7TT software


Any reliability issues with the cars running this? Do you agree there is no point to doing this on stock cams. I would love to decrease spool time but 5whp hardly seems worth the troubles.

According to this dyno, power seems to drop off quickly once the VVT is disengaged compared to not using it. Maybe disengaging the VVT initiates some timing pull in the ECM?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

There is a guy local to me (aka prof315) controlling VVT on a 2020 via Megasquirt 3. He should have some dynos soon from what I hear.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Here's the real question though. Does the VVT valve bleed oil from the tensioner when engaged or add oil (like Vtec does)? Cause if it's adding oil and pushing the tensioner arms further out then it RETARDS the intake cam timing. If it bleeds oil off and lets the tensioner arms come in it will advance.


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## JVK (Dec 20, 2009)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> After receiving a fresh set of Cat Cams 3658 Billet Camshafts, we were able to do some dyno testing and determine the viability of utilizing the factory 1.8T VVT cam tensioner to improve the powerband of our Time Attack B5 Audi A4.
> 
> We verified clearance for up to 30 degrees of advance on the intake camshaft (the VVT tensioner itself only provides about 22 degrees of advance) on our 2.2L stroker motor with the 3658s, plugged in the VVT tensioner to our 034EFI Stage IIc Standalone ECU, and got to work.
> 
> ...


*That is the cool thing, you can drive with the VVT on until 6000rpm (different on each setup), then you will have better bottom torque/spool and you will keep the top end power.*


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Haven't been this excited about a thread in a while


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

this is why i'm keeping my VVT


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

erevlydeux said:


> So the VVT solenoid is normally only on during.. what? The SAI period on start up?


Yep


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

erevlydeux said:


> Interesting. With Issam's post in mind (checking piston/valve clearances) - running this full-time on a stock engine (no change in pistons/valves from stock) ought to be OK, right? (if it can run at idle, higher revs don't change clearances)
> 
> If I'm not thinking about this the wrong way, engaging it would be a pretty simple task/setup. Automotive relay + window switch. Wire the VVT solenoid to the NC side of the relay, have the window switch trigger the relay "on" at a given RPM (the sweet spot cut-off that 034 refers to) and voila... simple way to engage VVT full-time with an adjustable RPM cut-off. That, and a resistor to go on the ECU harness to fake the VVT, of course.
> 
> Not sure what the DTC implications could be here, though.


Pretty much...but most of the window switches are designed for solenoids already...so no relay necessary. They have enough current capacity built in (with likely faster response times than a relay)


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I emailed Chris Tapp about rigging something in Maestro, I'm waiting on the response and will update as soon as I know anything :thumbup: I'm happy my BEA has one stock, but I wonder if regular usage will cause reduced part life. One downside of the VVT tensioner is that it costs $500+ :facepalm:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

l88m22vette said:


> I emailed Chris Tapp about rigging something in Maestro, I'm waiting on the response and will update as soon as I know anything :thumbup: I'm happy my BEA has one stock, but I wonder if regular usage will cause reduced part life. One downside of the VVT tensioner is that it costs $500+ :facepalm:


If this becomes a performance part maybe someone will make a better one.


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## dmonitto (Mar 24, 2003)

In terms of DTC problems, I could see the computer throwing a cam crank correlation code since the intake cam would be advanced 22* unexpectedly if you used a window switch and stock ECU.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

dmonitto said:


> In terms of DTC problems, I could see the computer throwing a cam crank correlation code since the intake cam would be advanced 22* unexpectedly if you used a window switch and stock ECU.


Very true. You'd likely have to use an aftermarket ECU and have all the codes that the CPS throws thrown out.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

This is by far the best thread in the last year or so, maybe longer. 

I can't wait for some Honda kid to brag how his car has VTEC and mine doesn't and be able to say , " well actually it does have a form of VTEC + a turbo and lot's of torque!"

and this was all discovered when a bunch of vortexers actually got together to do something other than bitch!:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

Can't wait to hear back on the maestro thing if it could disengage the ecu seeing the intake cam that would be phenomenal, it would be the first thing I've done with this software.


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

There's no reason the VVT mechanism couldn't be shimmed to limit movement, as well. It could be interesting- the 22 degrees of move- although odviously a big pick up in bottom end- may be past ideal- 

Could be worth experimenting.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

yes, yes, it would sir


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

enginenerd said:


> There's no reason the VVT mechanism couldn't be shimmed to limit movement, as well. It could be interesting- the 22 degrees of move- although odviously a big pick up in bottom end- may be past ideal-
> 
> Could be worth experimenting.


Or you could just control the solenoid with PWM. It would then become fully tunable both in terms of how much and when is it on.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Prof315 said:


> Or you could just control the solenoid with PWM. It would then become fully tunable both in terms of how much and when is it on.


That depends on how well the solenoid reacts to PWM. Not all solenoids deal with it the same. That theory needs to be tested


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> That depends on how well the solenoid reacts to PWM. Not all solenoids deal with it the same. That theory needs to be tested


And it wil be as soon as I can confirm which way the cam moves when VVT is active.


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## -03 tq (Jul 25, 2009)

Can vvt be activated via me7 (a4 b6) when tuning the software? Im running 1.8 NA cams and hx35. I had cam gear turned 1 tooth early and it started making boost from 2000rpm! Its just lost at top end power. Cam @ 0-position makes boost 2700-3000 rpm.


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## -03 tq (Jul 25, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> And it wil be as soon as I can confirm which way the cam moves when VVT is active.


that depends which guide pulls out when activated. Upper will retard and lower would advance?! right? But i guess its the upper one:sly:


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

so if i have AEB head with VVT still inside (transfered cams and all from old AWP head) and it's electronically plugged ...but SAI and all other emission stuff (N valves) are gone....can I still use it to "make more power and improve spool"?

This is why APR advertises more power on their apr stage 3+ for AWP engine than on other older non-vvt engines.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

-03 tq said:


> that depends which guide pulls out when activated. Upper will retard and lower would advance?! right? But i guess its the upper one:sly:


Exactly. I was told that it's the upper guide that is the one that moves but I'm going to check and see for myself. And after I verify advance or retard I will test the solenoid to see if it can be PWM controlled.


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## -03 tq (Jul 25, 2009)

mescaline said:


> so if i have AEB head with VVT still inside (transfered cams and all from old AWP head) and it's electronically plugged ...but SAI and all other emission stuff (N valves) are gone....can I still use it to "make more power and improve spool"?
> 
> 
> 
> I cant see any cause why you couldnt. I have all that schaisse gone too and big port head installed, VVT plugged too. They are separate systems.


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## LGDUBR (Mar 13, 2007)

> erevlydeux
> 
> So the VVT solenoid is normally only on during.. what? The SAI period on start up?


 Ok forgive my lack of knowlege but, is the VVT solenoid on at any other time than startup or was it originally designed strictly for emissions purposes?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

To warm up cat faster, only at startup. It's the anti VTEC theirs works at high rpm ours works at none.:screwy:


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

APR claim a tiny 13bhp gain from the vvt system on 1.8T. not worth the hassle imo.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Those claims are with their stg3 setup or just flashed, what? 
A 13hp gain at base with nothing more than a flash is a good amount of power. 
Not everything can make 100hp+ 
AS I read it, let me know if I'm wrong didn't 034's car make 100hp more by using this method? 

Plus the amount of HP isn't everything, quicker spool on a BT or a better powerband makes a HUGE difference. Even if it doesn't make alot of HP. 

Hence cam's they don't really add alot of hp but move the powerband to a more usable spot.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

APR's tuning made 383 with no vvt and 396 with it. So thats less than 4% gain. Well, ok.... still something. 

I just see it as another thing that can go wrong. Bcs I already broke my BAM vvt engine and got me a non vvt AGU bigport. 

:laugh:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> APR's tuning made 383 with no vvt and 396 with it. So thats less than 4% gain. Well, ok.... still something.
> 
> I just see it as another thing that can go wrong. Bcs I already broke my BAM vvt engine and got me a non vvt AGU bigport.
> 
> :laugh:


 True, but 034 made ~30 HP and about 500 RPM better spool. That's a pretty crazy improvement. That's better numbers than even swapping out a nice turbo wheel for a billet lightweight high flow wheel. If we can do that with a


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

that is interesting yes, do you have a link to this controller? I cant find it on their site...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> that is interesting yes, do you have a link to this controller? I cant find it on their site...


 It's not built. We're just delving into using VVT as a possibility. So engineering guys like myself and others on here would need to put our heads together to design and build it. 

Make it an open source design like megasquirt does.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

I don't see a benefit to this while drag racing...so no care


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

18T_BT said:


> I don't see a benefit to this while drag racing...so no care


 Would be a great benefit for road racing.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

erevlydeux said:


> So why are you here?


 Postcount ++ Trollcount ++


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## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> I don't see a benefit to this while drag racing...so no care


 Respool between shifts


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

You could PWM control open loop, but most standalones want a fixed reference on the exhaust cam to closed loop pwm control the intake cam. 

I'm wiring it up right now and will experiment with PWM for sure, even if I have to add an exhaust cam sensor to the cam pulley. For most casual users though, especially those on ME7- the immediate solution is just the obvious and simple WOT switch + rpm window switch.


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## old guy2 (May 30, 2010)

Prof315 said:


> Exactly. I was told that it's the upper guide that is the one that moves but I'm going to check and see for myself. And after I verify advance or retard I will test the solenoid to see if it can be PWM controlled.


 Normal operating conditions the chain is tight on the bottom. The exhaust cam pulls the intake cam. During a cold start the cam chain position actuator pushes up which advances the intake cam by moving the "slack" from the top (return side) to the bottom (pull side). 

Edit: Correction: The positioner actually pushes down on the lower chain to move the slack from the top to the bottom.


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

So how did 034 control it.. I know with their 034 standalone, but how?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

old guy2 said:


> Normal operating conditions the chain is tight on the bottom. The exhaust cam pulls the intake cam. During a cold start the cam chain position actuator pushes up which advances the intake cam by moving the "slack" from the top (return side) to the bottom (pull side).


 Actually if it pushes up it will retard the intake cam but cool! That's what I wanted to know


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

schwartzmagic said:


> So how did 034 control it.. I know with their 034 standalone, but how?


 Probably the same way I do with my Megasquirt3. Fused power to pin 1 and pin 2 to a GPO (general purpose output) that pulls to ground in a progammable rpm window. But what I want to do is see if I can control it with pulse width modulation (fixed frequency and variable duty cycle like an N75 wastegate solenoid) and thusly control both when and how much retard is applied to the intake cam.


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## old guy2 (May 30, 2010)

Prof315 said:


> Actually if it pushes up it will retard the intake cam but cool! That's what I wanted to know


 How do you figure that? If you move the slack from the top to the bottom you will rotate the intake cam further clockwise in relation to the exhaust cam which will advance the intake cam. 

Edit: And actually I mis-spoke earlier. The positioner adjust the cam advance by moving the chain "slack" from the top to the bottom. It actually pushers down on the lower chain, not up and at the same time the upper pad goes down to take the slack out of the top. The key point is that in normal operating conditions the "slack" is on the top. To advance the cam the "slack" goes to the bottom. 

Sorry about that!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Prof315 said:


> Probably the same way I do with my Megasquirt3. Fused power to pin 1 and pin 2 to a GPO (general purpose output) that pulls to ground in a progammable rpm window. But what I want to do is see if I can control it with pulse width modulation (fixed frequency and variable duty cycle like an N75 wastegate solenoid) and thusly control both when and how much retard is applied to the intake cam.


 The question will be if a given PWM or voltage will tell the solenoid to engage xxx inches up or down. I think that in order to control that you'd need a feedback loop...and that feedback look will require more sensors in order to know how far up/down you've traveled. Of course, you could add another sensor to tell you that or a hall sender/ to do it. 

I'm thinking all or nothing is going to be the way to play this one.


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## Dan[FN]5857 (Oct 12, 2010)

groggory said:


> I'm thinking all or nothing is going to be the way to play this one.


 X2


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Dan[FN]5857 said:


> X2


 Which means that a simple programmable window switch is all that's needed here. (plus dyno tuning for various setups to get the rpm window sets and verifying valve clearances) 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-830452/?rtype=1 
or 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8969/ 

I assume our RPM signal can be fed right into it


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## machx0r (Feb 25, 2001)

groggory said:


> The question will be if a given PWM or voltage will tell the solenoid to engage xxx inches up or down. I think that in order to control that you'd need a feedback loop...and that feedback look will require more sensors in order to know how far up/down you've traveled. Of course, you could add another sensor to tell you that or a hall sender/ to do it.
> 
> I'm thinking all or nothing is going to be the way to play this one.


 The bigger question is what is the ball bearing and oil passage the the solenoid controls is doing. Even if the solenoid doesn't respond well to PWM it could (theoretically) be replaced. However if the internals of the tensioner essentially limit you to an on/off situation the solenoid is a non-issue. 

PS: I'm not sure how other VVT systems work and what sort of precision/control they offer but the 1.8T tensioner is backed by oil pressure, which is variable, so it seems like any sort of predictable adjustability would be "interesting" at best. Very excited to see where this goes opcorn: and wish I hadn't tossed my old tensioner :banghead:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

machx0r said:


> The bigger question is what is the ball bearing and oil passage the the solenoid controls is doing. Even if the solenoid doesn't respond well to PWM it could (theoretically) be replaced. However if the internals of the tensioner essentially limit you to an on/off situation the solenoid is a non-issue.
> 
> PS: I'm not sure how other VVT systems work and what sort of precision/control they offer but the 1.8T tensioner is backed by oil pressure, which is variable, so it seems like any sort of predictable adjustability would be "interesting" at best. Very excited to see where this goes opcorn: and wish I hadn't tossed my old tensioner :banghead:


 Exactly. Those variables would be accounted for in a proper positive feedback loop. IE... 

You want to raise it to 1/2". 
You apply 8V which theoretically should bring it to 1/2" 
You check where it's at. It's at 3/8" 
You apply 10V 
You check where it's at. It's at 9/16" 
You apply 9.5V 
You check where it's at. It's at 1/2" 
You keep applying 9.5V 
You check where it's at. It's at 3/8" 
You apply 10V 
You check where it's at. It's at 1/2" 

...etc etc etc...All the engine variables are going to make it behave funny but as long as you have a fast acting control loop and a smart algorithm, it'll be ok. 

But like I said before...I honestly see phase 1 of this tuning as an all or nothing thing. VVT on or VVT off. I think we should tune for on/off and then after we've proven those benefits fine tune it with a variable VVT setup. Hell, if there's enough demand we could build an aftermarket VVT which could give fine grain control + internal feedback circuitry.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I assume I'm wrong: its the intake cam that gets affected by the tensioner moving, so this is essentially intake VVT with static exhaust timing, right? I assume this because the exhaust cam is driven by the timing belt while the intake cam piggybacks off the exhaust cam. Really, couldn't you just use a VTEC controller for the intake cam? 

My follow-up question is better: How could that used with the dual cam gear setups from not so long ago?


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## Dan[FN]5857 (Oct 12, 2010)

groggory said:


> I assume our RPM signal can be fed right into it


 that's what I need to find out for sure, if it does, I'm getting a window switch and experimenting with this. I am uncertain about our RPM signal working with a "generic" window switch.


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## old guy2 (May 30, 2010)

l88m22vette said:


> its the intake cam that gets affected by the tensioner moving, so this is essentially intake VVT with static exhaust timing, right?


 That is correct.


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## old guy2 (May 30, 2010)

There is also something else to consider. The timing chain adjuster wasn't designed to operate in the loaded position except for during cold starts. After the motor is up to operating temperature the default position is for the lower (loaded) side of the chain to be pulled in a straight line from intake to the exhaust cam. Consequently there isn't a lot of pressure on the rub blocks. The chain "slack" is being held to the top (unloaded) side by the cam adjuster. If you run an intentional advance on the intake cam the "slack" is moved to the lower loaded side of the chain. I suspect this will cause accelerated wear on the lower rub block and may shorten the life of the cam adjuster considerably. If it isn't monitored closely the results could be catastrophic.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm in agreement here. I would be extremely worried about accelerated wear of the lower chain tensioner.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> I don't see a benefit to this while drag racing...so no care


 *AMEN!!!!!!* 



erevlydeux said:


> So why are you here?


 looky here new kid on the block. i can pretty much assure you Val knows quite a bit on the subject of 1.8T. much more than you i would hazard a guess at. :facepalm:


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

****ing babies 

EDIT: All 3 of you. nothing beneficial stfu easy as that.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> I'm in agreement here. I would be extremely worried about accelerated wear of the lower chain tensioner.


 You could always buy AEB tensioners and swap out components should this become an issue. So far no issues here.... 


DMVDUB said:


> AS I read it, let me know if I'm wrong didn't 034's car make 100hp more by using this method.


 Extra 29hp on my 2.0


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> The question will be if a given PWM or voltage will tell the solenoid to engage xxx inches up or down. I think that in order to control that you'd need a feedback loop...and that feedback look will require more sensors in order to know how far up/down you've traveled. Of course, you could add another sensor to tell you that or a hall sender/ to do it.
> 
> I'm thinking all or nothing is going to be the way to play this one.


 Well I can find out exactly how much it moves by switching from sequential to batch fire/waste spark, pulling the hall sensor, making reference marks on the hall sensor wheel and valve cover and then using a dial back timing light to measure the change in degrees as duty cycle is altered. Then I can build an open loop table to fit my needs. The advantage of running a standalone . 

It sucks that the VVT advances the cam. Not nearly as usefull as retarding it would be. I have LOTS of low end since I have an ABA based 20/20 but stretching the top end on stock cams would have been cool. 

HMMMMM maybe I can modify things so it works the other way........


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Prof315 said:


> It sucks that the VVT advances the cam. Not nearly as usefull as retarding it would be.


 Would installing the cam 22* retarded and running VVT normally on (which would return cam to stock location) and then turn it off when you want to advance it or can the solenoid be reversed?


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok, I misread the HP gain on 034's car:facepalm: but this is really interesting and I'd like to ask some questions on the topic. 

Issam, what mods are on the 2.0T? Not a list just BT or LT. 

Doesn't VTEC work on the same principal of oil pressure rising and setting the solenoid to turn on / off? 

The wear and tear being an issue, those part's that would be lost faster could just be redesigned or fabricated. Correct? 

Using a window switch to activate / Deactivate seems a little too easy. This would command the solenoid understood. Question is if 034 used their software to command the solenoid, what supporting precautions were used, what changes were made to the fuel and Timing maps to work with massive overlap and 20* timing change under boost? if any.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> Doesn't VTEC work on the same principal of oil pressure rising and setting the solenoid to turn on / off?


 Yes and no. 

VTEC uses an electric solenoid to control oil pressure to a mechanism that actually changes to a SPARE LOBE on the cam. It's like a switchable rocker arm sort of thing. We just have one cam profile, but are changing the timing via the chain that links our two cams together. 

So in short, if we can fine control our system using VVT then we have a hugely tunable variable cam system (this is still to be determined). VTEC is a much simpler and likely a more reliable system, but is not nearly as instantaneously tuneable. You need a new cam for a new tune or you need to make adjustments to your cam wheels for tuning. Our system would be like VTEC if we used the VVT in a binary fashion. Another upside with the hondas is the dual cam wheels so you can advance and retard the intake and exhaust cams seperately. Note, we do have a company who makes a dual cam wheel retrofit for our cars too (but its pretty serious money I hear).


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation I forgot about the extra lobe on the honda cam. that it just moves it over to us the other profile. 
Do any of the VW heads have a dual cam gear setup that could be fitted / made hybrid by integrating the VVT into the other head?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

elRey said:


> Would installing the cam 22* retarded and running VVT normally on (which would return cam to stock location) and then turn it off when you want to advance it or can the solenoid be reversed?


 I am looking into both of those possibilities.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

groggory said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> VTEC uses an electric solenoid to control oil pressure to a mechanism that actually changes to a SPARE LOBE on the cam. It's like a switchable rocker arm sort of thing. We just have one cam profile, but are changing the timing via the chain that links our two cams together.
> 
> So in short, if we can fine control our system using VVT then we have a hugely tunable variable cam system (this is still to be determined). VTEC is a much simpler and likely a more reliable system, but is not nearly as instantaneously tuneable. You need a new cam for a new tune or you need to make adjustments to your cam wheels for tuning. Our system would be like VTEC if we used the VVT in a binary fashion. Another upside with the hondas is the dual cam wheels so you can advance and retard the intake and exhaust cams seperately. *Note, we do have a company who makes a dual cam wheel retrofit for our cars too (but its pretty serious money I hear).*


 
Not to mention that if you are running ME7, the ECU will freak out once you remove the CPS...


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The one kit I saw has a modified cms so the ecu doesn't freak out.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The one kit I saw has a modified cms so the ecu doesn't freak out.


  
A CPS can be placed anywhere once you tie it into the camshaft... i.e. on the valve cover or similar.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The one kit I saw has a modified cms so the ecu doesn't freak out.


 Forcefed Engineering. 










They use an aftermarket CPS to feed the ECU the info it needs.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

That's sick! :beer::thumbup::thumbup:


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

with respect to aaron and val, i'm intrigued. this is a completely new topic for me. doesn't happen too often anymore. opcorn:


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

and Travis, i agree that this is one of the better TECHNICAL THREADS i have seen in this forum in a long time. much better at what has become Par for this Course. 

i just happen to be with Val that it dont float my boat for the usage of my motors and what i use them for.


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## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

So does a certain voltage constitute a certain advance? Or is it an I/O system?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

AudiA4_18T said:


> So does a certain voltage constitute a certain advance? Or is it an I/O system?


 As VW designed it, 12V = 22deg of movement. 0V = TDC 
That's it. All or nothing. Fine tuning it to 0-22deg is something we're toying around with here.


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## greek 1.8t (Jan 18, 2004)

Top thread guys! If you guys work out if its adjust (which i doubt but im in for finding out so keep on at it) i have an idea for a standalone controller fully programmable for under $50.


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## lamarvannoy (Jan 29, 2010)

really interesting stuff, i would be very interested in learning what this can do for an awp ko3s, if anything...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

lamarvannoy said:


> really interesting stuff, i would be very interested in learning what this can do for an awp ko3s, if anything...


 This won't do anything for a K03s. This will decrease spool (already super low for a k03s) and give some low end power boost for big lift cams (stock cams are very mild already). 

This is more of a BT toy really.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> This won't do anything for a K03s. This will decrease spool (already super low for a k03s) and give some low end power boost for big lift cams (stock cams are very mild already).
> 
> This is more of a BT toy really.


 I'd have to disagree there. I am currently engaging the VVT solenoid at 3500 rpms and off at 5500, and as soon as it comes on there is a DEFINATE seat of the pants feel, like secondaries opening on a 4 barrel carb. With it turned off this does not happen. I am running a 20/20 hybrid with a stock AWW head and turbo on an OBD1 ABA shortblock (also stock). I've also got the same thing going on with a friend's stock AWW (it's also in a Corrado) and same deal VVT on: Noticeably faster rpm spool up. VVT off: You don't feel any kick in the pants.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Prof315 said:


> I'd have to disagree there. I am currently engaging the VVT solenoid at 3500 rpms and off at 5500, and as soon as it comes on there is a DEFINATE seat of the pants feel, like secondaries opening on a 4 barrel carb. With it turned off this does not happen. I am running a 20/20 hybrid with a stock AWW head and turbo on an OBD1 ABA shortblock (also stock). I've also got the same thing going on with a friend's stock AWW (it's also in a Corrado) and same deal VVT on: Noticeably faster rpm spool up. VVT off: You don't feel any kick in the pants.


 Oh cool, didn't expect that. 

What does the ECU do when the timing window sensor all of a sudden gets some extreme changes? 

Wow, this may just be a $60 window switch away


----------



## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

So I guess the thing to ask now is where to turn it on & off


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I'd like to know what was noted earlier what is the ecu doing when it sees 22* of advance suddenly? If it's as simple as hooking up my window switch I'd do that. I'm just a little weary, when things sound too good to be true they usually are. 

So we know that the window switch will engage and disengage the VVT. 

What RPM I'm going to say has more to do with the size turbo your running and what your delivery looks like. 

What needs to be done to the ecu to keep it from freaking out over the sudden change in timing?


----------



## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

not a window switch like for your windows to roll down. 

a window switch as in a nitrous type controller. rpm windows. on @ 3k rpm, off @ 5800 rpm. that kind of window switch. 

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=6973&terms=8956


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I think we already know that, dick


----------



## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> I think we already know that, dick


 hahaha..... what you said made it sound as though it was power window switch. i can just see it now; "i hooked my VVT up to the window switch and it only works when i roll down the window. why cant i use it when its raining?" because you said "my window switch" instead of "hook up A window switch". the masses do not know you already have a nitrous setup (i think) and thus already are aware of such controllers. 



DMVDUB said:


> If it's as simple as hooking up my window switch I'd do that.


 ya never know in here with all the brainiacs these days.... 

i am diggin the way this one works. on WOT, its digital so no pills, shift light control, 2 stages. 

http://www.holley.com/15982NOS.asp 










same type here. 

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/tech_center/install/7000/71905.pdf


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LOL, 
That's too funny if some a$$hat hooked it up to his power windows that would be the mega fail for the year. 
Yeah, I was talking about using my No2 controller / window switch. I still cant get it out of my head, some fool pressing the drivers' side window button at 3k to 6k and letting off! 
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: 

Note: auto grade no2 smells and tastes nasty it's not the stuff the dentist has:banghead: 

just kidding, but it does.


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

This is the one I use, it's phenomenal! 










For n02 not VVT...........YET! 

MSD 8969 great for bikes too!


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## cupradub (Dec 25, 2008)

Interesting, i have a better idea.... 


Instead of using the msd nitro device, why not using the wotbox 2MB, his software shows a nitro window switch add in :sly: 

any wotbox´s guinnea pig here? :what:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i'd rather have the window box from msd..seen too many cars fuct by the wot box guy/dude.. 

this is VERY intriguing..keep it up!! best thread in the id27 in...forever!!


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> Oh cool, didn't expect that.
> 
> What does the ECU do when the timing window sensor all of a sudden gets some extreme changes?
> 
> Wow, this may just be a $60 window switch away


 Couldn't tell you I'm running standalone and it doesn't care. It only needs the cam sensor to sync on startup then it's ignored.


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## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

I'm gonna hook this bad boy up to a flip switch... Then all the ricers think I have NAWZZZZ


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

erevlydeux said:


> Seems like there is a good niche market here for a relatively cheap but straight-forward window switch. The MSD units are a little bit expensive (cheapest I found that I recall was ~$60) for something that simply turns a relay on or off based on RPM.


 True...but you have to have circuitry that interprets the RPM, plus handles the relay, plus can tolerate an electrically noisy environment, plus be built well to not screw up a $10000 motor (potentially) because of your cheap switch. Gotta remember, these normally control things like NO2 injection, which is not allowed to screw up else your car go boom. 

If I did this, I'd get a solid brand like MSD. I don't want to trust my cam timing to any old little thing.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Like said MSD 8969 is a very good switch. I never used it for the VVT but I've used it on 2 cars and a bike for No2 and it's easy to set and reliable. Plus MSD is such a big name I think they most likely know a thing or two about window switches, circuitry and rf / noise.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> Like said MSD 8969 is a very good switch. I never used it for the VVT but I've used it on 2 cars and a bike for No2 and it's easy to set and reliable. Plus MSD is such a big name I think they most likely know a thing or two about window switches, circuitry and rf / noise.


 x2 

I would trust my engine to MSD. The WOTbox seems like a neat toy, but seems like a hobbiest project, not a professional development project.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

UNIFAN said:


> Didnt read through all the pages, but I know UNI is using working with this on there BT 1.8 files, spools BT like the gt3076r 300rpm sooner to besides the power!
> 
> If i get the update ill let you guys know.


 I wonder if this would be a worthwhile thing for me being that I'm running a disco potato (GT2860). It already spools really fast.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

erevlydeux said:


> I don't disagree that having hardened electronics is a good thing. Can it be done by someone that isn't associated with a name as big as MSD though? Definitely.
> 
> DIY isn't always synonymous with rickshaw and jerry rigged.


 True. But DIY rarely has the money to test things as thoroughly as someone like MSD. 

Regardless, I understand your point and I love DIY. But for something as simple as a window switch, why go for DIY when tried and true MSD can be used instead.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

IMO the most important thing to deal with in the tune, since although the ME7.5 is a beast I'd feel a lot better knowing the ECU is expecting the VVT at a given RPM so the tune can handle it...maybe I am just overly-cautious...


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

I was thinking/wondering about this on the way home from work today....

How is timing going to be affected for those that increase their timing via Unisettings/Lemmiwinks?

For example, if you advance your timing 7.5* via Unisettings or a standalone system, how is that going to be affected by engaging the VVT via a window switch? Has anyone brought this up? I don't understand how all that works so I'd like to know. If someone can please post something it would be very informative for all of us.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

That timing is ignition timing, not cam timing. I'd start with the Unisettings stuff AFTER everything else gets properly sorted (VVT switch, tune, etc). No reason to throw more variables into an experiment


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

when APR did all this and i raised the question that VVT somehow helps make more power because there is clearly difference in power between their advertised number for VVT and non-VVT engines...i was kinda made fun of and people in MASSES kept repeating that VVT is/can be used for emissions only. 
This only can be the reason why all APR GT28RS kits make a bit more power than others


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

l88m22vette said:


> That timing is ignition timing, not cam timing. I'd start with the Unisettings stuff AFTER everything else gets properly sorted (VVT switch, tune, etc). No reason to throw more variables into an experiment


 So cam timing is independent of ignition timing? Doesn't one affect the other? I know they're not the same thing and know about how advancing and retarding the ignition timing affects power, but this is one of those things we also need to look at. I guess when the VVT thing gets figured out then we'll get to play with the ignition timing.


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

mescaline said:


> when APR did all this and i raised the question that VVT somehow helps make more power because there is clearly difference in power between their advertised number for VVT and non-VVT engines...i was kinda made fun of and people in MASSES kept repeating that VVT is/can be used for emissions only.
> This only can be the reason why all APR GT28RS kits make a bit more power than others


 
Trade secrets :sly:


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## MKllllvr28 (Sep 15, 2005)

i didnt want this to get lost :wave:


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

MKllllvr28 said:


> i didnt want this to get lost :wave:


 I want some updates on what, if anything, people have figured out.


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

I'd like toget more info on this aswell


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Has anyone tried this since the thread was started? I'd like to try it on my car, but I'd like some pics of t someone else's setup for my visual needs. I have a MSD window box and I'm sure hooking it up wouldn't be too hard. I just wonder if it would be a waste on my K04 powered car.


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm sure your k04 spools quick enough lol


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

schwartzmagic said:


> I want some updates on what, if anything, people have figured out.


 I've been hoping to hear something from Eurodyne about this. Either way its no longer a secret, the tuners have all been doing it and its public knowledge now. If someone has the time check out CUSTOM CODE TUNING from Europe. They just released their "VVT Time ATTACK" software which uses the VVT. 

I was also hoping to tinker with cam timing with an adjustable cam gear to decrease my spool time on my T3/4, however I cannot find an affordable one for AWP engines. I ordered an Autotech one and its not the correct one, apparently they no longer stock the AWP camgear or it seems to have never truly existed (according to the rash of other misorders I read about). ECS now sells a no-name one but it looks cheesy. I'm thinking about emailing Piper in the UK and seeing if they have an AWP gear.


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> I've been hoping to hear something from Eurodyne about this. Either way its no longer a secret, the tuners have all been doing it and its public knowledge now.


 That is SOME SH!T lol... This whole time they've been holding out on us :banghead:



TooLFan46n2 said:


> I was also hoping to tinker with cam timing with an adjustable cam gear to decrease my spool time on my T3/4, however I cannot find an affordable one for AWP engines. I ordered an Autotech one and its not the correct one, apparently they no longer stock the AWP camgear or it seems to have never truly existed (according to the rash of other misorders I read about). ECS now sells a no-name one but it looks cheesy. I'm thinking about emailing Piper in the UK and seeing if they have an AWP gear.


 Doesn't Cat Cams sell an adjustable cam gear also?


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Finally somebody is tapping into that VVT solenoid! 
Question is, can you get even a mere 7hp increase on a stock car?

Im gonna state the obvious now; it'd be awesome if we could ADVANCE the timing. :thumbup:


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## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> I've been hoping to hear something from Eurodyne about this. Either way its no longer a secret, the tuners have all been doing it and its public knowledge now. If someone has the time check out CUSTOM CODE TUNING from Europe. They just released their "VVT Time ATTACK" software which uses the VVT.
> 
> I was also hoping to tinker with cam timing with an adjustable cam gear to decrease my spool time on my T3/4, however I cannot find an affordable one for AWP engines. I ordered an Autotech one and its not the correct one, apparently they no longer stock the AWP camgear or it seems to have never truly existed (according to the rash of other misorders I read about). ECS now sells a no-name one but it looks cheesy. I'm thinking about emailing Piper in the UK and seeing if they have an AWP gear.


I have a Cat Gear laying around. Shot you a PM


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## BoostAdict (Dec 5, 2010)

Is there a way to use a V-Afc? It intercepts the wire coming into the ecu that controls vvt and alters the signal therefore giving the operator the option of lowering the Vvt rpm point of engagement. If it would your might be able to intercept the signal from the mas and change fuel settings as well. I doubt it would work, but if no one has tried maybe it would work


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

The megasquirt developers have just released alpha code for MS3 that includes true VVT control and cam angle measurement for PID feedback. Right now only the cam angle gauge is working but it is showing that when the VVT solenoid is engaged ( I have mine just going full on/off) the intake cam advances 24 degrees. 

I did a tooth count on the chain cam gears and I'm planning on retarding the intake cam 1 tooth which will give me ~16 degrees of retard. This way once I get a handle on controlling the solenoid with PWM I'll have from 8* of advance to 16* of retard.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> I've been hoping to hear something from Eurodyne about this. Either way its no longer a secret, the tuners have all been doing it and its public knowledge now. If someone has the time check out CUSTOM CODE TUNING from Europe. They just released their "VVT Time ATTACK" software which uses the VVT..


I emailed Chris weeks ago, but I've heard nothing back...I'll try again. Could anyone wire a sniffer connection to monitor the VVT solenoid? I'd totally do it but I don't know how to, I want to take some electronics courses at the community college so bad


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

Emailed chris aswell not returning emails for some reason.


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Prof315 said:


> The megasquirt developers have just released alpha code for MS3 that includes true VVT control and cam angle measurement for PID feedback. Right now only the cam angle gauge is working but it is showing that when the VVT solenoid is engaged ( I have mine just going full on/off) the intake cam advances 24 degrees.
> 
> I did a tooth count on the chain cam gears and I'm planning on retarding the intake cam 1 tooth which will give me ~16 degrees of retard. This way once I get a handle on controlling the solenoid with PWM I'll have from 8* of advance to 16* of retard.


This sounds promising. Now if only the Maestro and Uni guys worked on this for the rest of us.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

just read through this, 

quite awesome stuff, 300-500 quicker rpm spool.......yummmm

that means i might have to step up to the 8374 from my planned 7670

just sayin,

looking forward to seeing some results!!!


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

I've been waiting on various parts for a long time to get my car back together but looks like that will be happening soon. I'm installing an AEB head w/ VVT and a Cat adjustable cam gear. The cat gear is adjustable a maximum of +/- 10 degrees. I believe I read the VVT advances the intake cam 22 degrees. I hoping to use both of these in conjunction with one another. I'lll be using the stock cams, I know more would be gained with performance camshafts but I'm happy with my power and curve, my goal is to advance the powerband lower decreasing spool time while still producing power up to 7000 RPM.

So my question is does anyone have any input on how far I can ADVANCE cam timing if running VVT? I'm pretty sure this answer is not posted on the forums. Most likely I'll have VVT disabled until Eurodyne writes control in or until I find some cheaper components that allow me to have control over it.

I know a few of you have been quitely working on this project, anyone have any updates or information to share?


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Any update?


----------



## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

I got it working... Seems to make more power off boost and the idle sounds awesome


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I've got mine up and running with closed loop PID control on MS3. I maintain 200+ wtq from 2200 to 5500 @ 11psi with a tired K03.


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

How are you getting it to work? Standalone?


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

schwartzmagic said:


> How are you getting it to work? Standalone?


He writes software for ME7


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

How would vvt make more power and increase spoolup?


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Prof315 said:


> I've got mine up and running with closed loop PID control on MS3. I maintain 200+ wtq from 2200 to 5500 @ 11psi with a tired K03.


So you have it on WHILE on boost? Full retard?



groggory said:


> He writes software for ME7


:thumbup:


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

groggory said:


> He writes software for ME7





Gonzzz said:


> :thumbup:


:wave:

Doesn't help us. :banghead:


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

schwartzmagic said:


> :wave:
> 
> Doesn't help us. :banghead:


At least I'm giving back some feedback 

I still need to test more but it was cool just making it work without some extra box/gizmo attached to it.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> I've got mine up and running with closed loop PID control on MS3. I maintain 200+ wtq from 2200 to 5500 @ 11psi with a tired K03.


Do you mean that your setup is not on/off and that you use a variable voltage (or maybe a PWM) to control it? I ask this question because I don't see any interest to control an on/off system with a PID.


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Gonzzz said:


> At least I'm giving back some feedback
> 
> I still need to test more but it was cool just making it work without some extra box/gizmo attached to it.


Do you use the same linker, compilator and source code than the Bosch engineers?


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Do you use the same linker, compilator and source code than the Bosch engineers?


You know how I do


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Gonzzz said:


> You know how I do


I'm impressed!!!!


----------



## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

NeverGiveUp said:


> I'm impressed!!!!


:laugh:

Good thing I have a good sense of humor :thumbup:


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Do you mean that your setup is not on/off and that you use a variable voltage (or maybe a PWM) to control it? I ask this question because I don't see any interest to control an on/off system with a PID.


It's being controlled via PWM at 29 Hz


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> It's being controlled via PWM at 29 Hz


Did you dyno it to find the best PWM % for each RPM? Using a dyno in fixed rollers speed (engine rpm is so in constant mode). Rollers are at a fixed speed whatever the torque is applied to the wheels by the engine.

And do you have a final dyno comparison with and without the VVT regulation?


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Did you dyno it to find the best PWM % for each RPM? Using a dyno in fixed rollers speed (engine rpm is so in constant mode). Rollers are at a fixed speed whatever the torque is applied to the wheels by the engine.
> 
> And do you have a final dyno comparison with and without the VVT regulation?


It was a dynojet so no steady state. And basically what I do is ramp up quick to full advance starting at 1800 rpm and full advance at 2300, hold full advance to 3500 and then ramp back down to off at 4500. With no VVT, torque was way down under 3000, peak was 10ft/lbs lower and it started falling at 4800 instead of 5000.


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> It was a dynojet so no steady state. And basically what I do is ramp up quick to full advance starting at 1800 rpm and full advance at 2300, hold full advance to 3500 and then ramp back down to off at 4500. With no VVT, torque was way down under 3000, peak was 10ft/lbs lower and it started falling at 4800 instead of 5000.


Can you post those dyno charts?
Do you think that it could be possible to use MS3 just to control VVT? How did you hook up the sensor for the feedback signal information regarding the intake camshaft position? Do you have some pics?


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Gonzzz said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Good thing I have a good sense of humor :thumbup:


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Can you post those dyno charts?
> Do you think that it could be possible to use MS3 just to control VVT? How did you hook up the sensor for the feedback signal information regarding the intake camshaft position? Do you have some pics?


Posting the dyno sheets will be tough as my scanner doesn't like them for some reason ( I've tried several times).

It would be an ABSOLUTE waste of hardware to just use an MS3 for VVT. But it could probably be done. Here's what I have running with mine (so far...) Sequential fuel, sequential spark ( LS coils WAY hotter than VAG junk and bulletproof), IAC (OBD1 ABA), N79 for closed loop boost control (gear based), canister purge, cooling fans, A/C, VVT, progressive water/meth PWMing the pump ( post dyno still working on the tune). This is using all stock sensors ( crank, cam, TPS, VSS etc) except CLT and IAT. No MAF I use the onboard 2.5bar MAP that ALL MS systems come with. And I still have half a dozen or more free I/O ports. PLUS the tuning software has the finest autotune function I have ever seen. I haven't manually tuned the fuel map in over 10 months.

The feedback info for the VVT is in the firmware using the stock cam sensor. I'll see about pics.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Posting the dyno sheets will be tough as my scanner doesn't like them for some reason ( I've tried several times).
> 
> It would be an ABSOLUTE waste of hardware to just use an MS3 for VVT. But it could probably be done. Here's what I have running with mine (so far...) Sequential fuel, sequential spark ( LS coils WAY hotter than VAG junk and bulletproof), IAC (OBD1 ABA), N79 for closed loop boost control (gear based), canister purge, cooling fans, A/C, VVT, progressive water/meth PWMing the pump ( post dyno still working on the tune). This is using all stock sensors ( crank, cam, TPS, VSS etc) except CLT and IAT. No MAF I use the onboard 2.5bar MAP that ALL MS systems come with. And I still have half a dozen or more free I/O ports. PLUS the tuning software has the finest autotune function I have ever seen. I haven't manually tuned the fuel map in over 10 months.
> 
> The feedback info for the VVT is in the firmware using the stock cam sensor. I'll see about pics.


OK That's good info. Thanks. 
I understand that MS3 is a really much more capable device but at least it can do it. Do you know simplier device which could do the job at a cheaper cost?

So MS3 compares the stock cam sensor signal with the trigger wheel signal in order to determine where the intake camshaft position is. It is then compared to the desired position which is described in a specific map (between 0° and -22° compared to the stock position without VVT) and so adjust this position with a closed loop regulation using a PID and a PWM signal at 29Hz and 12V, right?
What I don't understand is how you identified the best intake camshaft advance for your setup (the data you should have specified in the specific map) if you didn't use a steady dyno. Is this map only depend on rpm or is it rpm and load dependant?

Isn't it possible for you to take some pictures of the dyno sheets instead of trying to scan them? That woudl be so interesting to see the result!!!


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

NeverGiveUp said:


> OK That's good info. Thanks.
> I understand that MS3 is a really much more capable device but at least it can do it. Do you know simplier device which could do the job at a cheaper cost?
> 
> So MS3 compares the stock cam sensor signal with the trigger wheel signal in order to determine where the intake camshaft position is. It is then compared to the desired position which is described in a specific map (between 0° and -22° compared to the stock position without VVT) and so adjust this position with a closed loop regulation using a PID and a PWM signal at 29Hz and 12V, right?
> ...


ms would be against load.... probably rpm vs map sensor

Prof: are you using tuner studio pro for auto tune?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> ms would be against load.... probably rpm vs map sensor
> 
> Prof: are you using tuner studio pro for auto tune?


Yes the VVT table is load vs rpm although I basically ignore load.

I'm using a registered copy of Tuner Studio MS but running the current Beta version right now.

As far as tuning the VVT goes I may have some untapped potential left that I could find with a steady state dyno. But basically what I did was thought about what the VVT does and created my curve based on fundemental engine tech. When active, VVT advances the intake cam, effectively creating a wider lobe spread between intake and exhaust. A wide lobe seperation angle promotes bottom end torque (and a faster turbo spool). As the rpms rise I reduce the amount of VVT to strech the top end power since a narrow lobe spread make top end power.

Obviously a set of cams designed to take advanage of this would work better as would an adjustable intake cam gear. But since I'm kind of going way beyond what VW designed this system for I won't complain. Especially not with the crazy flat torque curve I have.


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## rosasjonathan (Jul 3, 2011)

what exactly is vvt? is it physical, or software. i noticed a comparison to vtec, does it have to do with the valve timing? at what rpm is this activated? and what exactly is happening? timing is increased? sorry this is the first time im reading this, sounds great


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Its just a little solenoid on the timing chain tensioner basically.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Any update?


Small update for me.

I installed an AEB head and swapped over the VVT tensioner. I've been pretty much up a brick wall since I lack major shop tools and unable to get information on adjustability and valve clearance from people in the know; all my forum questions to Pete @ IE have been ignored. Regardless I was able to retard the cam gear and get VVT working on cold start like it should without piston to valve contact. In the future I plan to pickup some switches (all new to me havent researched it yet) but I guess I need a full throttle switch and RPM window switch; unless I can get Eurodyne to implement control into their software but so far I am the only person who has expressed interest to them apparently (c'mon vortexers!). At the moment I'm stalled since my hydraulic timing belt tensioner took a crap and my car jumped timing. Hopefully get everything back together in a few weeks when I'm fully recovered from my surgery.
:heart:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Yes the VVT table is load vs rpm although I basically ignore load.
> 
> I'm using a registered copy of Tuner Studio MS but running the current Beta version right now.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand your strategy and theory. How can you judge if the best advance for this intake camshaft should be 22°, 40° or only 5°? However, if your dyno results are good that's the only important thing to remenber.:thumbup:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Yes I understand your strategy and theory. How can you judge if the best advance for this intake camshaft should be 22°, 40° or only 5°? However, if your dyno results are good that's the only important thing to remenber.:thumbup:


Obviously I can't determine the best advance without spending a ton of time on a steady state dyno. But there is only one of those local and the guy who owns it is an idiot who has killed over a dozen motors on it. I'll stick to using the dynojet down the street from my old job for free. :laugh:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Yes I understand your strategy and theory. How can you judge if the best advance for this intake camshaft should be 22°, 40° or only 5°? However, if your dyno results are good that's the only important thing to remenber.:thumbup:


Is it true they maximum mechanical advance possible from the tensioner activated is 22 degree's - thats the hardware limit

I have ordered a USB scope so will look at the stock management vvt signals and post up the results.. I too have retrofitted vvt onto my new engine in my racecar, so will implement its use, so good info for me and to share also.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

badger5 said:


> Is it true they maximum mechanical advance possible from the tensioner activated is 22 degree's - thats the hardware limit
> 
> I have ordered a USB scope so will look at the stock management vvt signals and post up the results.. I too have retrofitted vvt onto my new engine in my racecar, so will implement its use, so good info for me and to share also.


22° is the value I have been reading in this thread several times but I can't guarantee that it is true.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> 22° is the value I have been reading in this thread several times but I can't guarantee that it is true.


It can vary from 16 to 24* depending. Mine maxes out at 17* advance.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> It can vary from 16 to 24* depending. Mine maxes out at 17* advance.


Vary from 16 to 24° depending on the revision of the part you mean?


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## moparfan90 (Oct 14, 2008)

It uses oil pressure so would the amount of pressure have something to do with the variance in advance?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I like that ground is being made here!! Outstanding!

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Vary from 16 to 24° depending on the revision of the part you mean?


Revision #, age of the tensioner assembly and oil pressure all seem to affect things to some degree. My best friend is also using VVT on his 1.8T Corrado ( also an MS3 beast) but as a simple on/off. I do all of the beta testing . His is an older revision than mine but with less wear and tear on it and it moves the cam 22*.


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

I talked to chris tapp and this is whT he told me

"On the 1.8T the VVt is only used during cold start, and in testing we did
(actual testing on a dyno) there were no power gains realised on the test
vehicle.
The 2.7T is different and I have added the maps for those engines.

I could do the same for the 1.8T in the next week or so."


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## NOLA_VDubber (May 24, 2007)

Interested in this


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

groggory said:


> x2
> 
> I would trust my engine to MSD. The WOTbox seems like a neat toy, but seems like a hobbiest project, not a professional development project.


I ran a WOT > 1 year. It worked better and was more reliable than Maestro.

I have another one going back on each of my cars.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

codergfx said:


> I talked to chris tapp and this is whT he told me
> 
> "On the 1.8T the VVt is only used during cold start, and in testing we did
> (actual testing on a dyno) there were no power gains realised on the test
> ...


While it's true that VW omly uses th VVT for cold start emissions on a 1.8T, there are gains to be found using it all the time. Mechanically advancing (or retarding for that matter) the intake cam or even better both cams can have a serious impact on an engine's power curve. In general it doesn't make a whole lot more power, but it can significantly increase the WIDTH of the power curve. On a 1.8T, an intake cam specifically designed to take advantage of this could make some nasty power. 

Any body know a good cam grinder?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

You aren't going to pick up any top end power- even if you were to put the cams in with way wide centerlines and then use the VVT to roll over the intake cam- these engines just don't respond to that. I've tried centerlines all the way up to 120 degrees, and you are within 3hp peak of a low centerline setup, but down 30+ hp in the mid range. 

One could take a set of our bigger cams, degree them in spread wide like that, use vvt to roll the intake cam around- and probably have the mid range power we already have, but a smooth (OE) idle and vacuum- and the same power up top. The overall curve however wouldn't be a whole lot different then what they already are, because we went with fairly aggressively low centerlines to start with. 

Are you using a 4 window wheel, or a 1 window wheel, with the MS3?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

Prof315 said:


> While it's true that VW omly uses th VVT for cold start emissions on a 1.8T, there are gains to be found using it all the time. Mechanically advancing (or retarding for that matter) the intake cam or even better both cams can have a serious impact on an engine's power curve. In general it doesn't make a whole lot more power, but it can significantly increase the WIDTH of the power curve. On a 1.8T, an intake cam specifically designed to take advantage of this could make some nasty power.
> 
> Any body know a good cam grinder?





codergfx said:


> I talked to chris tapp and this is whT he told me
> 
> "On the 1.8T the VVt is only used during cold start, and in testing we did
> (actual testing on a dyno) there were no power gains realised on the test
> ...


Well I'm not sure what Tapp is talking about. There are companies that advertise gains utilizing the VVT (yes 1.8t) and have dynos to show. Like Prof said its not about making more peak power but bumping the curve down low, increasing torque and decreasing spool time. 

Codergfx thanks for contacting Chris, I'll shoot him an email as well. I asked before and put up a post in the suggestion forum but to no avail. :thumbup:


Can someone in the know clarify this; using ME7 (or Eurodyne) the tensioner can only be activated as an on/off switch? I think this is the difference between the 2.7T and VR6 engines is they offer full adjustability. I've seen alot of people tinker with the cam phasing in those engines, I'm assuming the 1.8t isn't full adjustable without an outside controller or switch? Hence why it hasn't gotten as much attention on our tunes. I wonder if Tapp can alter the maps to include full adjustability or will it only be ON/OFF with ME7. Either way I'm looking forward to shaving a few hundred RPM off my spool. eace:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Can someone confirm that the 2.7T timing chain tensioner is used as a fully adjustable device (compared to the ON/OFF use on the 1.8T)?

When I have a look at 2 different timing chain tensioners (1 from a 1.8T and 1 from a 2.7T), they look very similar.

If the statement above is confirmed it means that the 1.8T tensioner would also really be made to be used with an adjustable strategy.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

It would be pretty simple to build a box to control this.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

gdoggmoney said:


> It would be pretty simple to build a box to control this.


So please let us know how to do it!!!


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> You aren't going to pick up any top end power- even if you were to put the cams in with way wide centerlines and then use the VVT to roll over the intake cam- these engines just don't respond to that. I've tried centerlines all the way up to 120 degrees, and you are within 3hp peak of a low centerline setup, but down 30+ hp in the mid range.
> 
> One could take a set of our bigger cams, degree them in spread wide like that, use vvt to roll the intake cam around- and probably have the mid range power we already have, but a smooth (OE) idle and vacuum- and the same power up top. The overall curve however wouldn't be a whole lot different then what they already are, because we went with fairly aggressively low centerlines to start with.
> 
> Are you using a 4 window wheel, or a 1 window wheel, with the MS3?


You say that mid-range would be approximately the same. How can you explain the 034 results then (huge mid-range improvements where it spools 400rpm sooner)? Different cams?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

The cat's are pretty soft through the mid range typically to start with because they are wider centerlines out of the box. 

I'm sure it will help down low, and that in tern will probably bring the boost on sooner, which will odviously give power gains because no engine at 10psi will keep up with itself at 20psi  :thumbup:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

My 3651's brought boost on sooner all over the tach, and in greater amounts where it was building before. 


If I build a box to control the VVT, i'll give away the plans for free, and a layout that can be laser printer etched onto a single or double layer PCB. 



Really, if it's PWM it is not a big deal to build a small device to control it.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> The cat's are pretty soft through the mid range typically to start with because they are wider centerlines out of the box.
> 
> I'm sure it will help down low, and that in tern will probably bring the boost on sooner, which will odviously give power gains because no engine at 10psi will keep up with itself at 20psi  :thumbup:


Thanks Pete. That's interesting.:thumbup:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

gdoggmoney said:


> My 3651's brought boost on sooner all over the tach, and in greater amounts where it was building before.
> 
> 
> If I build a box to control the VVT, i'll give away the plans for free, and a layout that can be laser printer etched onto a single or double layer PCB.
> ...


Would you use the rpm signal only -> open loop to control the intake camshaft position? or rpm + camshaft + trigger wheel signal to closed loop the system?
I'm ready to be your beta tester if you need one.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Would you use the rpm signal only -> open loop to control the intake camshaft position? or rpm + camshaft + trigger wheel signal to closed loop the system?
> I'm ready to be your beta tester if you need one.




There is a good chance someone will do it before me, since I have a full plate of 3 project cars, work, side consulting and 2 kids one with leukemia requiring a ton of home care and hospital trips. This is behind a billion other things on my list.

I also don't want to really get into VW stuff for money or have any pressure because it is not work and I enjoy it. This is my relax hobby the last thing I need is more stress and people bugging me about soldering, install and etc all the time.

Figure out what is best, any modern microcomputer or microprocessor has enough timer channels to run a space shuttle, and your options are very cheap.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> You aren't going to pick up any top end power- even if you were to put the cams in with way wide centerlines and then use the VVT to roll over the intake cam- these engines just don't respond to that. I've tried centerlines all the way up to 120 degrees, and you are within 3hp peak of a low centerline setup, but down 30+ hp in the mid range.
> 
> One could take a set of our bigger cams, degree them in spread wide like that, use vvt to roll the intake cam around- and probably have the mid range power we already have, but a smooth (OE) idle and vacuum- and the same power up top. The overall curve however wouldn't be a whole lot different then what they already are, because we went with fairly aggressively low centerlines to start with.
> 
> Are you using a 4 window wheel, or a 1 window wheel, with the MS3?


I started out with a one window wheel but the firmware developers and I got things working with the 4 window as well (eventually  ). I've been using the 4 window wheel for about 7 months now.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

gdoggmoney said:


> My 3651's brought boost on sooner all over the tach, and in greater amounts where it was building before.
> 
> 
> If I build a box to control the VVT, i'll give away the plans for free, and a layout that can be laser printer etched onto a single or double layer PCB.
> ...


It's not DESIGNED to be pwm but can be pwm controlled successfully. I think I finally have a spare VVT tensioner assembly (with damaged guides) to take apart and possibly modify for smoother response to the PWM control. DC vs advance isn't very linear but a decently tuned PID loop keeps things within a degree or so of target.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

erevlydeux said:


> So is MS3 applying PID control or is it just straight up 0-100%-0 PWM control mapped between your start/peak/end points?


I have things working with PID control. The open loop VVT control is a simple on/off but a straight up duty vs rpm/load can be achieved using one of the generic PWM tables available.

MS3 is VERY VERY flexible.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm awaiting a DIY using a window switch. :thumbup:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

erevlydeux said:


> So.. still a little unclear on how you're controlling it.
> 
> Are you doing: 1) on/off (on at X RPM, off at Y RPM) 2) PWM lookup table (mapping RPM/load to a PWM output value) 3) load/RPM/advance lookup table w/ PID controller driving a PWM output?


I'm using option 3 but options 1 and 2 are available in the MS3 firmware.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

erevlydeux said:


> 3) load/RPM/advance lookup table w/ PID controller driving a PWM output?





Prof315 said:


> I'm using option 3


What is your feedback (error) for the PID? CAM angle?


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

erevlydeux said:


> Gotcha. Does the motor actually have a sensor for determining timing advance? (I'm presuming it must if you're doing option #3 but I've just never seen it mentioned before. )


He is probably comparing the intake camshaft and trigger wheel signals to compute the intake camshaft position.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

erevlydeux said:


> Well, now that I think of it... I'm presuming there must be some sort of crank trigger wheel, right? Camshaft angle isn't really relevant unless it's considered relatively, and the only thing it would presumably be relative to is crankshaft position.
> 
> EDIT: Just looked and there is the RPM sender (aka crankshaft position sensor) so I guess it's just a matter of decoding the trigger signal patterns for both sensors and tracking the difference between them like you said.


Yes that's what I meant: intake camshaft and crankshaft trigger wheel signals. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

erevlydeux said:


> Gotcha. Does the motor actually have a sensor for determining timing advance? (I'm presuming it must if you're doing option #3 but I've just never seen it mentioned before. )


It's using the factory cam and crank sensors to determine cam angle. The decoder is all in the firmware. It will also work with a single window cam trigger. The MS3 firmware developers are a couple of extemely talented guys.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

So this isn't as simple as just using a window switch anymore?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

travis_gli said:


> So this isn't as simple as just using a window switch anymore?


To my understanding it is that simple (unless I'm missing something-I'm no electrical guru so I've been a little lost in the conversation). Everyone has been discussing intergrating it into MegaSquirt or engineering an external box to control it. Seems like overengineering to me since tuners have & can incorporate on/off control into their software. Hoping Eurodyne will come thru if not a window switch is all you need. I don't see the need for full pulsewidth control since people have had good results just using it on/off; nor could I afford the dynotime to dial it in.

To answer someones earlier question.. I believe the tensioner adjustment of 22 degrees is what is specified in the VW technical book on the VVT system.

Also here is a good read on the VR6 VVT however like I said earlier it offers complete phasing out of the box where the 1.8t is simply on/off. Still some good info in here.

-24v-VVT-Mapping


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Actually VVT control IS integrated into Megasquirt 3. There are miata guys and BMW guys up and running VVT as well as me with the 1.8T VVT/tensioner assembly.

Any rpm based window switch that can provide either 12V or ground could easily be used to get some basic control of the VVT solenoid. How a factory ECU would react I have no idea. Since I am running a Hybrid motor ( ABA block , AWW head) in a Corrado I chose to go standalone. 

I have been involved with beta testing MS3 hardware and firmware since the second round of MS3 beta boards went out ( 19 months ago). The rado has over 15,000 MS3 miles on it including a bunch of long distance trips that have shown fuel mileage in the low to mid 30s/gallon typically at speeds of 80-85 mph. I am still testing new firmware for the developers and often wind up as a new feature guinea pig.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> To my understanding it is that simple (unless I'm missing something-I'm no electrical guru so I've been a little lost in the conversation). Everyone has been discussing intergrating it into MegaSquirt or engineering an external box to control it. Seems like overengineering to me since tuners have & can incorporate on/off control into their software. Hoping Eurodyne will come thru if not a window switch is all you need. I don't see the need for full pulsewidth control since people have had good results just using it on/off; nor could I afford the dynotime to dial it in.
> 
> To answer someones earlier question.. I believe the tensioner adjustment of 22 degrees is what is specified in the VW technical book on the VVT system.
> 
> ...


So I guess my next question is how do us "non electrical gurus" go about rigging say an MSD window switch up. I'll do it this weekend and run some tests if I get a decent explanation. Doesn't even have to be thorough. I'm guessing my APR software will hate it however.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

travis_gli said:


> So I guess my next question is how do us "non electrical gurus" go about rigging say an MSD window switch up. I'll do it this weekend and run some tests if I get a decent explanation. Doesn't even have to be thorough. I'm guessing my APR software will hate it however.


It shouldn't be a problem if you use a MAF.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

NeverGiveUp said:


> It shouldn't be a problem if you use a MAF.


I'm not MAFless. :thumbup:


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

erevlydeux said:


> Using a window switch should be dead simple. Splice the VVT connector to the output of the window switch. Hook up the window switch to get an appropriate RPM signal. Adjust the window switch for the given RPM turn on, and RPM turn off if it has that capability.


Will probably give it a shot within the next couple weeks when I have the time to mess around. :thumbup:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

VVT with stock cams:










I have also found that it is possible to check the state of this ON/OFF position camshaft tensioner with Block 91 and 94 using VAG-COM.

091,0,Camshaft Adjustment
091,1,Engine Speed,,Specification (automatic): 640...6800 RPM | Specification (manual): 700...6800 RPM
091,2,Engine Load,,Specification: 10...150 %
091,3,Camshaft,Adjustment,Display Range: On/Off
091,4,Active camshaft,adjustment angle,Specification: -3.0...+25.0 °CA
;
094,0,Camshaft Adjustment (Basic Setting)
094,1,Engine Speed,,Specification: 1080...2600 RPM
094,2,Camshaft,adjustment,Specification: CAM-ADJ.ON | Display Range: CAM-ADJ.ON/CAM-ADJ.OFF
094,3,Diagnostic,Result,Specification: Syst. OK | Display Range: Test OFF/Test ON/Syst.OK/Syst. nOK


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> VVT with stock cams:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


very nice I'll update the first post with this after work. :thumbup:

Confused, what is the 4 digit in the block? Block 091, {2} ?


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> very nice I'll update the first post with this after work. :thumbup:
> 
> Confused, what is the 4 digit in the block? Block 091, {2} ?


Don't know but as there is a maximum of 4 information per block I think this 5th information is probably not used (his tensioner on the 1.8T is supposed to be ON/OFF).


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

I decided to make some measurments today with my stock camchain tensioner (without VVT).

First of all I checked my Camshaft Position Sensor type (It is well a 4 windows):









Then I plugged my scope to check the Crankshaft ECU pin82 and Camshaft ECU pin86 signals:
Yes that's a mess!!!:banghead:

























Here are the results:

















I also checked with VAG-COM and there is an information regarding the VVT in Block 94.
For now I use a resistor for this ECU output.
As you can see the Cam Ctrl is ON. It has never gone back to OFF even when the engine was hot (I may have to drive the car for it to go back to OFF as it is supposed to be used for emission purpose when the engine is cold?...)









I ordered the VVT cam chain tensioner. I will install it in 2 weeks after my vacation and I will do the same tests with VVT OFF and ON using a Power Supply to activate it or not.
I will then see how the camshaft signal is phased (should be -24° more or less).

Stay tuned.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

NeverGiveUp said:


> I decided to make some measurments today with my stock camchain tensioner (without VVT).
> 
> First of all I checked my Camshaft Position Sensor type (It is well a 4 windows):
> 
> ...


many thanks for sharing.. Great information :thumbup:


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

Don't know how I missed the above posts but awesome to see actual testing going on here. :thumbup: 

...and some exciting news. Downloaded the new version of maestro today. 


We now have Cam Timing Control in Maestro!! eace:


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

so is there anything new on this? wheres the diy


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Unfortunately I didn't receive the VVT tensioner yet. I was on vacation and it had been shipped back to the sender... I will keep you informed as soon as I test it. 

However, I don't really understand how the VVT Timing map works with Maestro. Does someone know?


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Unfortunately I didn't receive the VVT tensioner yet. I was on vacation and it had been shipped back to the sender... I will keep you informed as soon as I test it.
> 
> However, I don't really understand how the VVT Timing map works with Maestro. Does someone know?


 The values seem to correlate with the advancement degrees of the intake camshaft. I asked Chris if he could elaborate more on the map. His response was yes this is the cam timing map however it isn't providing the expected results and therefore isn't 100% complete. He is going to implement another table or feature to finalize it. 

*So yes the cam timing table is there but he said not to waste time right now adjusting it until he does more testing and implements another feature. Chris said there will be an announcement on the Eurodyne forum when everything is complete.*


----------



## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> *So yes the cam timing table is there but he said not to waste time right now adjusting it until he does more testing and implements another feature. Chris said there will be an announcement on the Eurodyne forum when everything is complete.*


 cheaaa boyeeee


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

That's good news!!!!


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm still awaiting somebody to write up a DIY for a window switch. I really would love to do it myself but I don't have the time anymore.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

DIY on a window switch isn't really needed. 

You connect the power and grounds to the switch along with a RPM signal 

Then connect the output wires from the window switch to the solenoid... easy. 

Next set where you want the vvt to come on and where you want it to go off. 

only thing is you will only have full on / off capability.:wave:


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

erevlydeux said:


> Note that you'd probably want to use a relay to trigger the solenoid... most window switches aren't made to switch much current.


 :thumbup:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Window switch. You want stock cam timing, or bent valves? Your pick


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

This is a nice thread except everytime the word Honda and Vtec appears:thumbdown::laugh: 
You guys should get hip to bmw's vvt and start refering to it instead. 
All jokes aside its nice to see the testing going on...in true vw style!!!:thumbup::thumbup: 

Edit...I am stoked after reading the whole thread.... 
As stated this is the best thread I've read in a while!!!:thumbup::thumbup:


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

gdoggmoney said:


> Window switch. You want stock cam timing, or bent valves? Your pick


I don't see a 20* increase bending valves....


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

travis_gli said:


> I don't see a 20* increase bending valves....


it doesn't


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

Prof315 said:


> it doesn't



Prof do you have any insight into what type of max advancement can be run? I know it varys engine to engine but having a rough idea would be nice.

Do you know how much valve to piston clearance there is on a stock setup?


----------



## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Prof do you have any insight into what type of max advancement can be run? I know it varys engine to engine but having a rough idea would be nice.
> 
> Do you know how much valve to piston clearance there is on a stock setup?


Obviously its more than 20* considering 20* is used for warm up phases and even in warm up phases, people that don't understand vehicles beat the p!ss out of their cars. Considering that VW never would have went with 20* advancement if it would do any sort of damage.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

travis_gli said:


> Obviously its more than 20* considering 20* is used for warm up phases and even in warm up phases, people that don't understand vehicles beat the p!ss out of their cars. Considering that VW never would have went with 20* advancement if it would do any sort of damage.


Yes you are correct. I was getting intake cam advancement confused with the degree ratio of valve opening to TDC. I believe its 22* advancement on warmstart. I really wish I could find the old VW school study document on VVT


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Prof do you have any insight into what type of max advancement can be run? I know it varys engine to engine but having a rough idea would be nice.
> 
> Do you know how much valve to piston clearance there is on a stock setup?


Typically max advance is 22 -24*.

I have no idea what the piston to valve clearance is on a stock 1.8t. My ABA based 20/20t has over .100" clearance with stock OBD1 smooth dish pistons and .015" shaved off the head.


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

travis_gli said:


> Obviously its more than 20* considering 20* is used for warm up phases and even in warm up phases, people that don't understand vehicles beat the p!ss out of their cars. Considering that VW never would have went with 20* advancement if it would do any sort of damage.


Yea agreed


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

When I have the extra cash I'll buy myself a decent window switch and go to town. I have a few other projects sitting on the list as of now however.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

travis_gli said:


> When I have the extra cash I'll buy myself a decent window switch and go to town. I have a few other projects sitting on the list as of now however.


You realize there is practically no benefit to doing this on a stock turbo? You might pick up a few hp/tq way down low but its all going to be wheel spin.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> You realize there is practically no benefit to doing this on a stock turbo? You might pick up a few hp/tq way down low but its all going to be wheel spin.


I'm not doing it to benefit for myself I'm doing it to benefit to the community. Regardless nobody has seen any results from this for a stock setup.


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

So would this improve spool on a 50 trim?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

travis_gli said:


> I'm not doing it to benefit for myself I'm doing it to benefit to the community. Regardless nobody has seen any results from this for a stock setup.


Thats cool just wanted to make sure you weren't expecting big gains. Custom Code in the UK has it on their k03 time attack software; I can't recall what the gains exactly were.



codergfx said:


> So would this improve spool on a 50 trim?


I'm hoping to see a 2-400 RPM reduction in spool :thumbup:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> This won't do anything for a K03s. This will decrease spool (already super low for a k03s) and give some low end power boost for big lift cams (stock cams are very mild already).
> 
> This is more of a BT toy really.





Prof315 said:


> I'd have to disagree there. I am currently engaging the VVT solenoid at 3500 rpms and off at 5500, and as soon as it comes on there is a DEFINATE seat of the pants feel, like secondaries opening on a 4 barrel carb. With it turned off this does not happen. I am running a 20/20 hybrid with a stock AWW head and turbo on an OBD1 ABA shortblock (also stock). I've also got the same thing going on with a friend's stock AWW (it's also in a Corrado) and same deal VVT on: Noticeably faster rpm spool up. VVT off: You don't feel any kick in the pants.





TooLFan46n2 said:


> You realize there is practically no benefit to doing this on a stock turbo? You might pick up a few hp/tq way down low but its all going to be wheel spin.





travis_gli said:


> I'm not doing it to benefit for myself I'm doing it to benefit to the community. Regardless nobody has seen any results from this for a stock setup.


Sounds like dude is saying he saw an increase on a ko3...


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> Sounds like dude is saying he saw an increase on a ko3...


I did.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> I did.


:thumbup: Very nice!:beer:


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*hm*

Ugh, why Prof? Now I really want to MS3 my car. :laugh:

Excellent work here guys. :thumbup:


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

If this improves spool I'm down but wouldn't faster spool mean more torque made?


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## Turbo freak (May 9, 2005)

What about a pressure sensor (hobbs switch) connected in a way that disconnect the VVT solenoid at a given/desired boost level? Can be either WOT related or not.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

codergfx said:


> If this improves spool I'm down but wouldn't faster spool mean more torque made?


Yes and no. You would receive the torque faster.



Turbo freak said:


> What about a pressure sensor (hobbs switch) connected in a way that disconnect the VVT solenoid at a given/desired boost level? Can be either WOT related or not.


This is plausible. However if you know what your desired boost level is you know it's being reached around a certain RPM. With that in mind a window switch would be fine. :thumbup:


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

torque a little earlier would be nice.


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

codergfx said:


> torque a little earlier would be nice.


It can be. However if you go from a nice torque curve to something more sudden you'll be wasting power by not getting it to the ground because of wheel spin unless you're running slicks.


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

My car spins 1st and second after 4k rpms but holds down 3rd all the way that's at 20psi @ 313whp


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

codergfx said:


> My car spins 1st and second after 4k rpms but holds down 3rd all the way that's at 20psi @ 313whp


God I love my standalone! Gear based boost control rocks out. No wheelspin issues there for me.


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## dick tracy (Aug 23, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> God I love my standalone! Gear based boost control rocks out. No wheelspin issues there for me.


This is posible with ME7 to, i know the map, but i never tested it 

Maybe a good idea to include it in to eurodyne

The map works with RPM, gear and % of torque.... but in order to get it working properly you need to have the torqueoutput from the ecu correct. And that is a problem when tuned.

Even EDC15 has this, this is how i made launch control for it :wave:


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

dick tracy said:


> This is posible with ME7 to, i know the map, but i never tested it
> 
> Maybe a good idea to include it in to eurodyne
> 
> ...


That would be cool actually! I have duel stg boost on my greddy controller.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

dick tracy said:


> This is posible with ME7 to, i know the map, but i never tested it
> 
> Maybe a good idea to include it in to eurodyne
> 
> ...


Sounds like a PITA to me. All I have to do is pick a gear to switch boost target tables ( I switch at 3rd) and presto! table 1 limits me to 7psi in 1st and 2nd and then when I shift to 3rd I go to table 2 currently limited to 12psi (I'm tuning my WMI). And boost tables are just TPS vs RPM.


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## dick tracy (Aug 23, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> Sounds like a PITA to me. All I have to do is pick a gear to switch boost target tables ( I switch at 3rd) and presto! table 1 limits me to 7psi in 1st and 2nd and then when I shift to 3rd I go to table 2 currently limited to 12psi (I'm tuning my WMI). And boost tables are just TPS vs RPM.


Torque/load is boost in motronic. But you are right, it will never work as good as in your ecu.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

i use 3651 cat cams and calculate the overlap at 39degrees at 0,1mm lift,when the vvt is on it will reduce my calculated overlap?will i have 39-20degrees at 0,1mm???and if i shut the vvt off i will have the calculated degrees(39) so i will see improvement at the whole diagramm?

i understand right?
the change at the timing from the vvt will reduce the overlap??


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Just a warning note to everyone. Using pwm to control the VVT solenoid in full time closed loop dramatically shortens the life of the tensioner assembly. Like mine has just under 20K on it and it's starting to rattle.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

any ideas why this would be the case?
its still rubbing on the chain be the tensioner up or down?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> any ideas why this would be the case?
> its still rubbing on the chain be the tensioner up or down?


Yeah I've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. The plunger and spring assembly that actually puts the tension on the chain still needs oil for full tension. Since I am constantly varying the oil pressure and timing the plunger has worn much more rapidly than it normally would.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

How about under full off-on conditions using a window switch? I'd expect some added wear, but what are we thinking about long-term viability?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> How about under full off-on conditions using a window switch? I'd expect some added wear, but what are we thinking about long-term viability?


Probably 50-75K depending on where the window is in relation to your driving habits.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Probably was not meant to be used constantly. They probably figured it would last x amount of cycles for emissions at start (thats what it is/was used for stock if I recall correctly)


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## rains (May 30, 2008)

very cool thread.

above and beyond what I can/will do (at this point), but really cool stuff :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Have any of you guys logged block 091 to see what your VVT system is doing? Run a WOT pull. My guess is you'll see behavior something like this:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

So from 1520 to 4640 it is "on," but is that with or w/o power applied? Another question, since Prof315 reported shortened life, can you log how long the VVT is applied? It makes me wonder about a trigger for short-term use, maybe a boost button or something


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

These cars come from the factory with settings that employ VVT under all kinds of circumstances. I'm not so sure the hardware is all that precious. That log is WOT in third. The intake cam is moved to its 22˚ position until 4800rpms, at which point it restores to the normal 0˚ position.

Anybody can record this data. Just log the appropriate block.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Professor Jeff was running it in angle control, which is probably what did it in. Could be inherent in the design (not made for it and heat killed it) or an improper control parameter, like drive frequency. 

I wouldnt be suprised if it lasts forever in on/off control mode.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Have any of you guys logged block 091 to see what your VVT system is doing? Run a WOT pull. My guess is you'll see behavior something like this:


one of the best post at the topic
these 22 degrees refer to the overlap via changing the lob centers or change the duration of the intake camshaft?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

This log shows that the engine positions the intake cam for overlap until ~4800 rpm. I have logged the FrankenTT with the ecu asking for 22˚ at ALL times. Then I logged with the setting at zero. Here are the results:



















You can see that the OEM setting is correct for a stock K04 turbo.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Well I replaced my dead vvt chain tensioner yesterday and I am pretty sure I know what happened. There is a smallish plastic cylinder inside the plunger and spring assembly, probably a travel limiter. It seems that by constantly moving the tensioner with PWM control of the solenoid, the limiter gets beat to snot and sheds pieces which then clog the oil ports. Without lube the plunger galls rather badly and things rattle. Some people are going to look at things and see if the assembly can't be beefed up and possibly modified so you can advance AND retard the cam.


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

Prof315 said:


> Well I replaced my dead vvt chain tensioner yesterday and I am pretty sure I know what happened. There is a smallish plastic cylinder inside the plunger and spring assembly, probably a travel limiter. It seems that by constantly moving the tensioner with PWM control of the solenoid, the limiter gets beat to snot and sheds pieces which then clog the oil ports. Without lube the plunger galls rather badly and things rattle. Some people are going to look at things and see if the assembly can't be beefed up and possibly modified so you can advance AND retard the cam.



:thumbup:


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## codergfx (Jan 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> This log shows that the engine positions the intake cam for overlap until ~4800 rpm. I have logged the FrankenTT with the ecu asking for 22˚ at ALL times. Then I logged with the setting at zero. Here are the results:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So in turn the data shows that vvt would be useful for a bigger turbo?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

One thing to remember, inlet airflow isn't everything (gasp). Changing the ivc will change the trapped CR as well. The only right way to figure out where the motor is happy is to use the dyno, and you will likely have to change ignition timing as well to optimize things.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*hm*



Prof315 said:


> Well I replaced my dead vvt chain tensioner yesterday and I am pretty sure I know what happened. There is a smallish plastic cylinder inside the plunger and spring assembly, probably a travel limiter. It seems that by constantly moving the tensioner with PWM control of the solenoid, the limiter gets beat to snot and sheds pieces which then clog the oil ports. Without lube the plunger galls rather badly and things rattle. Some people are going to look at things and see if the assembly can't be beefed up and possibly modified so you can advance AND retard the cam.


:thumbup:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Simple solution (which is an age-old VW fix): replace the ****ty plastic part with a metal part :thumbup:


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

l88m22vette said:


> Simple solution (which is an age-old VW fix): replace the ****ty plastic part with a metal part :thumbup:


:thumbup:


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## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

*FV-QR*

id rather by pass all of this and run dual cam gears......


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Why, going to bust out an allen wrench and change cam timing in the middle of a freeway pull?


----------



## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Why, going to bust out an allen wrench and change cam timing in the middle of a freeway pull?


lol no haha....just saying i like the design and how much power ive been seeing it make. like im not going for 1000 whp lol but i think the factory chain tensioner cant hang at those levels


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## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

*FV-QR*

i kno what you mean tho pete.....i have maestro now with an aeb head and contemplated buying the vvt tensioner.....but then decided it was too much moneys for me lol. i am trying to get more off boost power tho


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Ya I mean, there is zero power gain to dual cam gears. Zero. It's just that dialing in cams with the internal gears is a bit of a bitch. However, good cams are already sorted out, so there is really not much need to mess with them. 

However, using a VVT system allows you to have a choice of centerlines, on the fly- and that is different and much better  

Pete


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> This log shows that the engine positions the intake cam for overlap until ~4800 rpm. I have logged the FrankenTT with the ecu asking for 22˚ at ALL times. Then I logged with the setting at zero. Here are the results:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Cam Timing Control is not finallized in maestro; I mentioned on a previous page I was instructed to not use this feature as it is not properly integrated. Beta files are in distribution for 1 or 2 ECM files. :thumbup:


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

l88m22vette said:


> Simple solution (which is an age-old VW fix): replace the ****ty plastic part with a metal part :thumbup:


Sooooo...... whos going to be the first company to take this thing apart and make the metal pieces? 


*cough**IE**cough*

oh excuse me.... EHEMMM


----------



## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

Prof315 did you take any pictures of the broken parts?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

opcorn:


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

MKIII_96 said:


> Sooooo...... whos going to be the first company to take this thing apart and make the metal pieces?
> 
> 
> *cough**IE**cough*
> ...




I'll certainly take a look at it... Anybody got one that is failed in this manner I can examine? Better to see a failed one then a new one... PM me if you do 

Prof- are you logging cam position fairly well? I'm wondering if there is any loss of control - perhaps we are hitting that stop and smacking it with some force to cause it to break down? Sometimes beefing up one part just causes another part to fail or wear, when the answer was really that it needed more finesse. A bit of damping in that system probably wouldn't hurt, for example. :thumbup:


----------



## dubbin_boho (Dec 4, 2007)

so is this working in maestro now?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I'll certainly take a look at it... Anybody got one that is failed in this manner I can examine? Better to see a failed one then a new one... PM me if you do
> 
> Prof- are you logging cam position fairly well? I'm wondering if there is any loss of control - perhaps we are hitting that stop and smacking it with some force to cause it to break down? Sometimes beefing up one part just causes another part to fail or wear, when the answer was really that it needed more finesse. A bit of damping in that system probably wouldn't hurt, for example. :thumbup:


As mentioned earlier in this thread, mine is in the midwest being looked at with an eye on making things more durable and (possibly) modifying things so you can advance and retard the cam.

Yeah I can and do log cam position. And yes a little finesse i.e. a damping system would indeed help.


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

dubbin_boho said:


> so is this working in maestro now?




EDITED for misinformation

It is a whole new file Eurodyne will be providing that is optimized for the VVT engagement/disengagement.


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> The cam timing uses a different file type with timing maps for each cam position. So you will need to get a new file from Eurodyne once he has completed all the testing.


Actually I was incorrect in stating this. But it is a completley redone file. I'll edit my original post



TooLFan46n2 said:


> opcorn:


FWIW this graph is a little doctored. Looking back I believe the NON-VVT boost graph was done in 3rd gear while the VVT pull was done in 4th gear. When I get some time I will post up another graph done in the same gear. Also, these boost readings are taken at the MAP which is PRE-intercooler on my car, so its not taking into account alot of the pressure drop but it does give you a good indication of what to expect during spool with VVT enabled.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Cam position IDs in Maestro*

FYI, in Maestro, the two timing maps identified by "cam position" are:

Cam position 1: active at upper end of rev range
Cam position 2: active at lower end of rev range

The exact timing of when this crossover occurs is now changeable in Maestro. I have it set for ~4500rpms. Here's a look at the difference in spool when either of the two maps is flatlined at 5˚ advance.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Fuggin awesome guys, anyone make a metal plunger yet? :wave:


----------



## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

l88m22vette said:


> Fuggin awesome guys, anyone make a metal plunger yet? :wave:




Currently in the works, and then some. :thumbup:


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> FYI, in Maestro, the two timing maps identified by "cam position" are:
> 
> Cam position 1: active at upper end of rev range
> Cam position 2: active at lower end of rev range
> ...


5˚.....It's an on/off system. You should not be entering in anything other than 0 or 22˚on the beta file; 18˚ on the stock file. This was emphasized to me several times by Chris. Unless you were told otherwise? The optimum timing maps have something to do with torque calculation at part throttle. Ignition timing advance is still down through pump/race maps.

The VVT enabled is no joke I switched back to a base file today and the car felt like a slug. :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

My post above was confusing. The reference to 5˚ was the value I applied to the two ignition timing maps. I "flatlined" each one in turn, assigning 5˚ timing advance throughout the maps. Then I logged WOT in separate passes. By doing this, I was able to identify where/when the two ignition timing maps were active.

Completely separate from these maps is the cam position map. In that field you can assign when the cam moves from "position #1" to "position #2". This assignment impacts the timing maps, activating the correlating maps as the position changes.


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## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

*FV-QR*

maybe this is a dumb question and i do know that the vvt tensioner changes cam timing but what is the difference of changing lets say ignition timing in my tune vs. changing cam timing......is it just a completely different effect?


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

tojr1088 said:


> maybe this is a dumb question and i do know that the vvt tensioner changes cam timing but what is the difference of changing lets say ignition timing in my tune vs. changing cam timing......is it just a completely different effect?


Totally different, ignition timing controls when spark is fired; cam timing alters the position of the intake cam allowing more air into the cylinder


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## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Totally different, ignition timing controls when spark is fired; cam timing alters the position of the intake cam allowing more air into the cylinder


Thanks that's what I thought


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Does someone know if the new Eurodyne file (to manage VVT) will be provided by Chris for free to the existing customers?
When would it be released?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Does someone know if the new Eurodyne file (to manage VVT) will be provided by Chris for free to the existing customers?
> When would it be released?


I *assume* it would be a free file, no reason to believe otherwise. I know he is still making adjustments to the files, haven't heard of a release date yet.


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> This log shows that the engine positions the intake cam for overlap until ~4800 rpm. I have logged the FrankenTT with the ecu asking for 22˚ at ALL times. Then I logged with the setting at zero. Here are the results:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume that it is "Full advance" instead of Full retard" that we have to understand right?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> I assume that it is "Full advance" instead of Full retard" that we have to understand right?


"The Full Retard" shown in the graphs correlates to the 22˚ cam position.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> "The Full Retard" shown in the graphs correlates to the 22˚ cam position.


Yes 22° cam position but if I am not mistaken the intake cam is advanced not retarded of 22°.
When the intake cam is advanced -> more crossover between the exhaust and intake cams -> turbo spools up faster.

Are you one of the beta tester of the new Eurodyne ECU file + Maestro Editor which are going to be capable of managing the adjustable tensioner as we would like?


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

As we would like? It can be on or off...at certain RPM, that's it.

Also I think that APR used this on their big turbo kits for a very long time.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Great. I did 3651's with a non vvt Tensioner and now when I go into my garage the vvt Tensioner stares at me saying I'm losing power, and spool. "just install me!"


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## xtremvw3 (Jun 10, 2011)

We tried the new eurodyne File with VVT control we did see some difference, but remember the best way to get the powerband where you want to, is to let someone sale you the right parts, that will give you what you want, this vvt controler is decent enough to see a difference


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Yes 22° cam position but if I am not mistaken the intake cam is advanced not retarded of 22°.
> When the intake cam is advanced -> more crossover between the exhaust and intake cams -> turbo spools up faster.
> 
> Are you one of the beta tester of the new Eurodyne ECU file + Maestro Editor which are going to be capable of managing the adjustable tensioner as we would like?


The jargon for this stuff drives me nuts. I think the 22˚ position should be referred to as ADVANCED. But, from what I can tell, the nomenclature calls for "retarded". Why? Makes no sense to me. The 22˚ position is opening sooner, before the exhaust valve has closed (overlap). That strikes me as being "advanced". I dunno. 

As for Chris' software for this, I'm pretty sure my software is only able to define where in the rev range the VVT is "on" or "off".


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> The jargon for this stuff drives me nuts. I think the 22˚ position should be referred to as ADVANCED. But, from what I can tell, the nomenclature calls for "retarded". Why? Makes no sense to me. The 22˚ position is opening sooner, before the exhaust valve has closed (overlap). That strikes me as being "advanced". I dunno.
> 
> As for Chris' software for this, I'm pretty sure my software is only able to define where in the rev range the VVT is "on" or "off".


Which nomenclature are you talking about?


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## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

so to clear things up for me.......im running an aeb head with a 3082 turbo without vvt......my vvt plug i resistored nd im running maestro........am i losing power by not having vvt.....cause i am only getting 20mpg right now and i dont have much power at all out of boost......and i dont have more than 18 vac at idle.....i know theres no leaks at all its always been like that......decel gives me -21vac.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

tojr1088 said:


> so to clear things up for me.......im running an aeb head with a 3082 turbo without vvt......my vvt plug i resistored nd im running maestro........am i losing power by not having vvt.....cause i am only getting 20mpg right now and i dont have much power at all out of boost......and i dont have more than 18 vac at idle.....i know theres no leaks at all its always been like that......decel gives me -21vac.


Before jumping back into VVT you need to figure out why you are at a loss of power and getting too much fuel. But by what has been gathered in this thread enabling VVT like Prof has done will increase low end torque and build boost sooner.

EDIT: To those interested, a fix for the failing tensioner is currently in the works and hopefully will be tested soon. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Vvt was worth a few mpg on my Vr6 but not that much.


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## tojr1088 (Feb 25, 2009)

Welll the thing is my Africa is perfect but still only 20mpg. I think its because I have so little low end torque that I have to give the car more gas all the time just to stay at speed


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

tojr1088 said:


> Welll the thing is my Africa is perfect but still only 20mpg. I think its because I have so little low end torque that I have to give the car more gas all the time just to stay at speed


I have a ported AEB, tubular mani, large intake mani w 80mm tb and my car drives around fine off boost. Yeah there's lag and at most 10psi until the wastegate opens up but it drives fine "off boost". Don't know about your car. You have a 5 speed? I have a 6 so the gears are a little shorter so that might help my drivability.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

tojr1088 said:


> so to clear things up for me.......im running an aeb head with a 3082 turbo without vvt......my vvt plug i resistored nd im running maestro........am i losing power by not having vvt.....cause i am only getting 20mpg right now and i dont have much power at all out of boost......and i dont have more than 18 vac at idle.....i know theres no leaks at all its always been like that......decel gives me -21vac.


No your not "losing power", just not unlocking "hidden power" that can be gained by using vvt. Stock VW software only uses VVT for coldstart warmup. Your maestro software my just disable it depending on what setup the file was written for.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Actually I was incorrect in stating this. But it is a completley redone file. I'll edit my original post
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW this graph is a little doctored. Looking back I believe the NON-VVT boost graph was done in 3rd gear while the VVT pull was done in 4th gear. When I get some time I will post up another graph done in the same gear. Also, these boost readings are taken at the MAP which is PRE-intercooler on my car, so its not taking into account alot of the pressure drop but it does give you a good indication of what to expect during spool with VVT enabled.


I need my VVT enabled now! :facepalm:

lol, if i could shave off 750 rpms or more from spool time that'd be awesome


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

BSD said:


> EDIT: To those interested, a fix for the failing tensioner is currently in the works and hopefully will be tested soon. :thumbup:


eace:


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

l88m22vette said:


> eace:


Hey! you're "local" :wave:

Now if we could only figure out how to also get retard out of this tensioner.... Not much room in the head for additional... Movement...Hmm! On the flip side, upgraded stock unit is imminent!


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

BSD said:


> Hey! you're "local" :wave:
> 
> Now if we could only figure out how to also get retard out of this tensioner.... Not much room in the head for additional... Movement...Hmm! On the flip side, upgraded stock unit is imminent!


^^^ I have a friend that live's in 3k LOL


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Stock VW software only uses VVT for coldstart warmup.


How certain of that are you? C.Tapp at Eurodyne told me the cars come from the factory with a switchover map almost identical to the one in Maestro. I can't know because I have Maestro. But has anyone logged block 091 on stock software to see what's happening?


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## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

stock software.....that still exists?


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

xtremvw3 said:


> We tried the new eurodyne File with VVT control we did see some difference, but remember the best way to get the powerband where you want to, is to let someone sale you the right parts, that will give you what you want, this vvt controler is decent enough to see a difference


i'm about to shoot you a PM



AudiTToR said:


> stock software.....that still exists?


:laugh:


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Big_Tom said:


> ^^^ I have a friend that live's in 3k LOL


Small world! :laugh: Whats his name? I might "know" him. :thumbup:


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> How certain of that are you? C.Tapp at Eurodyne told me the cars come from the factory with a switchover map almost identical to the one in Maestro. I can't know because I have Maestro. But has anyone logged block 091 on stock software to see what's happening?


Certain, its been well documented, software companies advertise its added use in certain applications and its easy to hear in the tone of a car on cold start. All this information is found in this thread through various links and information I and others have posted in this thread.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

BSD said:


> Small world! :laugh: Whats his name? I might "know" him. :thumbup:


Derek Pierce :thumbup:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Here is what I received on Friday:

VVT tensioner 058 109 088B I bought on Ebay from UK.

























Before installing it I made some measurments with my stock Non VVT tensioner (you can also read my previous post back in August)










and the install begins:

Stock tensioner removed

















New VVT tensioner in place









Everything is back in place

















New measurments with the VVT tensioner electrically unplugged









When you compare those graphics you can notice approximately 4° difference (intake cam is retarded with the new VVT tensioner).

Then it is time to power it up. I used a Power supply (fixed +13V) to see how it reacts.









And that's where things become to go wrong.
Before powering it I tested those 2 pins on the electrical plug of the tensioner. Something which is strange to me is that those 2 pins are connected together...:screwy: I mean that I made a continuity test between those 2 pins and the multimeter made a strong BIPPPPPPPP...
Can someone tell me if it is normal?
Which pin is supposed to be connected to +12V and Ground?

When powering it up with my power supply the camshaft position signal is still the same...

May this VVT tensioner be out of order? Anyway I bought it new.

All your inputs will be very much appreciated.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

your engine bay looks so nice! :beer:


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

I'm guessing its uses a coil to move a valve which in turn changes the flow of oil to either push it up or down (not sure where it sits without power) 

If it does use a coil to move the valve (seems likely as most valves that use electricity to move them do it this way) i'm pretty sure the VVT adjuster is NOT a proportional adjuster based on varying voltage and just one way or the other.

So you will have continuity if it uses a coil, test the resistance between the pins in ohms and then outside metal casing.. im guessing there should be an infinite resistance between the pins and the housing and a low reading between the pins.

Good look and im very intrested to see the outcome, well done for the testing :thumbup:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Grahams81 said:


> I'm guessing its uses a coil to move a valve which in turn changes the flow of oil to either push it up or down (not sure where it sits without power)
> 
> If it does use a coil to move the valve (seems likely as most valves that use electricity to move them do it this way) i'm pretty sure the VVT adjuster is NOT a proportional adjuster based on varying voltage and just one way or the other.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will make those Ohm measurments.
I assume that this type of actuator is PWM driven. However, a 100% Duty Cycle PWM signal would be a steady +13V to fully activate the tensioner. I may be wrong :screwy:
I can also use a Square signal (Duty 50% using a desired frequency) to see how it reacts. I can't adjust Duty on my Function Generator. It also seems that this tensioner draws quite a lot of current 0,86A (that what is written on it) so I will have to check if my generator can do it.

One more question:
What is the Oil pressure at idle (880rpm in my case)? Will it be enough to activate the tensioner or should I raise the idle to let's say 2000RPM to make my tests?


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Grahams81 said:


> I'm guessing its uses a coil to move a valve which in turn changes the flow of oil to either push it up or down (not sure where it sits without power)


It will push it down so that the intake cam is advanced.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> One more question:
> What is the Oil pressure at idle (880rpm in my case)? Will it be enough to activate the tensioner or should I raise the idle to let's say 2000RPM to make my tests?


It sure should be; thats how the OEM system operates and upon engine startup is when you normally achieve the highest amount of oil pressure until things get up to temp.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Try activating the tensioner at 2-3k rpm. It might not have enough oil pressure at idle to move. Else check if the screen on the bottom of it is clogged with RTV.

PS: Do you have the polarity backwards?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

edit


w/e


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Try activating the tensioner at 2-3k rpm. It might not have enough oil pressure at idle to move. Else check if the screen on the bottom of it is clogged with RTV.
> 
> PS: Do you have the polarity backwards?


OK I will raise idle speed. For sure the screen is not clogged as I didn't add any RTV sealant. No leaks for now.
I changed polarity but it didn't have any impact on the tensioner.

Can someone tell me which pin is ground and which one is the signal? Or at least let me know the wires colors so that I can check by using my Bentley manual.


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

NeverGiveUp said:


> OK I will raise idle speed. For sure the screen is not clogged as I didn't add any RTV sealant. No leaks for now.
> *I changed polarity but it didn't have any impact on the tensioner.*
> Can someone tell me which pin is ground and which one is the signal? Or at least let me know the wires colors so that I can check by using my Bentley manual.


It shouldn't matter which way the wires go i.e polarity, coils are like a heater or light bulb..... controlled short circuit 

So is the tensioner moving now with the engine running when you apply +12v to one terminal and ground to the other ???


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Grahams81 said:


> It shouldn't matter which way the wires go i.e polarity, coils are like a heater or light bulb..... controlled short circuit
> 
> So is the tensioner moving now with the engine running when you apply +12v to one terminal and ground to the other ???


I will make those tests next Saturday. I will keep you informed.:thumbup:


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## fast german (Jan 17, 2012)

Chain Tensioner Pin 1 = +, Pin 2 = -. 
Refering to the Euro1.8nonTurbos.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Went to install my VVT tensioner back in the head, and figured out that the 3651's will not clear it. Looks like I get to grind into the tensioner, so I can do the intake cam removal dance, and roll it up the links to swap tensioners. For the third time.


Hate this thread for causing me pain, for future gains. :laugh:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

fast german said:


> Chain Tensioner Pin 1 = +, Pin 2 = -.
> Refering to the Euro1.8nonTurbos.


Which one is pin1 and which one is pin2 (upper or lower pin of the connector)?


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## Harry Sax (Apr 21, 2011)

well, i have been expressly warned NOT to use it...


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^ LOL


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Here is what I received on Friday:
> 
> VVT tensioner 058 109 088B I bought on Ebay from UK.
> 
> ...



How old was your non VVT tensioner? Because this strikes me, and someone correct me if I am wrong, but the VVT tensioner naturally when not recieving signal actually runs a measurable 4 degree retard compared to a non-VVT tensioner? 

I'm wondering if moving from a VVT to a NON-VVT tensioner will cause running or tune issues, as you are now 4 degrees advanced over assuming both were in proper functional order to begin with......


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

gdoggmoney said:


> How old was your non VVT tensioner? Because this strikes me, and someone correct me if I am wrong, but the VVT tensioner naturally when not recieving signal actually runs a measurable 4 degree retard compared to a non-VVT tensioner?
> 
> I'm wondering if moving from a VVT to a NON-VVT tensioner will cause running or tune issues, as you are now 4 degrees advanced over assuming both were in proper functional order to begin with......


I believe so, someone reported something like this. I can't remember who (actually thought it was you), I think its somewhere in this thread. Anyway I recall the user posting having issues and didn't figure it until a long time afterwords after swapping in the correct tensioner. I don't remember details of the build or software they were running. I thought they said this occured on mulitple cars that they swapped tensioners in.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

gdoggmoney said:


> How old was your non VVT tensioner? Because this strikes me, and someone correct me if I am wrong, but the VVT tensioner naturally when not recieving signal actually runs a measurable 4 degree retard compared to a non-VVT tensioner?
> 
> I'm wondering if moving from a VVT to a NON-VVT tensioner will cause running or tune issues, as you are now 4 degrees advanced over assuming both were in proper functional order to begin with......


My non VVT tensioner is the original one. So it is 11 years old I think.
4° is not a lot especially on those stock cams. I assume that it wouldn't prevent the O2 sensor to correct the air/fuel ratio correctly.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> My non VVT tensioner is the original one. So it is 11 years old I think.
> 4° is not a lot especially on those stock cams. I assume that it wouldn't prevent the O2 sensor to correct the air/fuel ratio correctly.


4 degrees of retard/advance on cams is kind of a huge deal. That is why they make adjustable cam gears, and the top end of that variance is about 5 degrees each way. 

I have one in abox for a B230FT volvo, and most others usually go about that far forward/back.


In fact, when you put a motor together part of blueprinting is aligning keyways dead center, and doing TDC tests to find absolute TDC especially after decking a head or block.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

gdoggmoney said:


> 4 degrees of retard/advance on cams is kind of a huge deal. That is why they make adjustable cam gears, and the top end of that variance is about 5 degrees each way.
> 
> I have one in abox for a B230FT volvo, and most others usually go about that far forward/back.
> 
> ...



4° crankshaft -> 2° camshaft. This is not huge (even if not negligeable) and nothing that cannot be automatically adjusted by the O2 sensor and the long term fuel trim.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Finally it worked by using a 12V battery (I assume that the power supply I used previously was not capable of supplying enough current).

No need to raise the idle speed (I assume that the oil pressure is enough even at idle speed).

Impedance between those 2 pins on the connector is 12ohm.

Polarity doesn't have any impact on movement. It works well on both cases.










So it moves for 20° crankshaft:
16° more intake cam advance compared to the non VVT tensioner when VVT is activated.
4° more intake cam retard compared to the non VVT tensioner when VVT is not activated.

Next step is to plug a Window switch in or use the new Maestro version to make it works. Does someone has more information from Chris Tapp on this new software availability?


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## [email protected]enturbo.com (Jul 1, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> ... or use the new Maestro version to make it works. Does someone has more information from Chris Tapp on this new software availability?


Well, I've had it since November. You can see the results of testing with it in this earlier post.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Finally it worked by using a 12V battery (I assume that the power supply I used previously was not capable of supplying enough current).
> 
> No need to raise the idle speed (I assume that the oil pressure is enough even at idle speed).
> 
> ...


 


See, I just ground down my VVT tensioner and installed it last night, removing the non-vvt tensioner. 

This cleared up a host of off idle hesitation, back on throttle from off throttle hesitation, and a ton of misfires at idle are gone. The car just runs better all over, no perceptible throttle delays anymore, even with fuel trims jumping around....... 


I'm running a Uni 630 stock cam file, with a stock small port head, stock manifold, throttle body and cat 3651 cams. I thought it was the cams at first, but now with the vvt tensioner the car runs dramatically different and much closer to stock in response and lack of stumbling/hesitation. 

I mean, I am actually fairly shocked. If your tune calls for VVT, you probably should run it and if not, there must be some accounting for this done in VVT delete tunes with a non VVT tensioner. 

I went from a brand new non-vvt tensioner to a used but clean and properly functional VVT tensioner. 

I don't have any logs, just simple driving experience, feel and response. The car is overall better and runs much more like factory.


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

Would it be possible to have vvt on a stock non-vvt car by putting in the vvt tensioner and operating it with a window switch? Or do you have to have the full vvt harness and vvt ecu?


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

abacorrado said:


> Would it be possible to have vvt on a stock non-vvt car by putting in the vvt tensioner and operating it with a window switch? Or do you have to have the full vvt harness and vvt ecu?


 Yes it is technically feasible and if you use a MAF I think that you wouldn't even have to update your tuned file. Without MAF would be an other story I think.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Yes it is technically feasible and if you use a MAF I think that you wouldn't even have to update your tuned file. Without MAF would be an other story I think.


 Without a tune to compensate.... I experience horrible stumbling about a few hundred milliseconds worth on/off throttle. It screamed up top but with a drive by wire car, you can hit the gas all you want, if it is correcting the throttle and lagging, your not moving ANYWHERE. (Idle/gas 1 single blade..... think about it.... can't do two things at once can you with one blade?) 


That is all cleared up...... as usual YMMV but this was my experience. Excited to drive the car home with almost stock like on/off throttle and boost building.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

gdoggmoney said:


> Without a tune to compensate.... I experience horrible stumbling about a few hundred milliseconds worth on/off throttle. It screamed up top but with a drive by wire car, you can hit the gas all you want, if it is correcting the throttle and lagging, your not moving ANYWHERE. (Idle/gas 1 single blade..... think about it.... can't do two things at once can you with one blade?)
> 
> 
> That is all cleared up...... as usual YMMV but this was my experience. Excited to drive the car home with almost stock like on/off throttle and boost building.


 and you were using a MAF? I remenber when I used some quite agressive cams a few years ago on this 1.8T engine that it was perfectly working on a stock ECU file with a matching ID MAF / Injectors combo... thanks to the MAF.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> and you were using a MAF? I remenber when I used some quite agressive cams a few years ago on this 1.8T engine that it was perfectly working on a stock ECU file with a matching ID MAF / Injectors combo... thanks to the MAF.


 I am, in fact the car runs better mafless. With the maf, teh car is adding fuel anywhere from 5% to 15% across the tach under various loads....... 

If you look at the difference of same setup cars with 3651 cams vs stock cams, even 20-30whp at lower boost on something like a 28RS is an average gain. 30R framed units seem to see 40-50whp at higher boost. 

You can back calculate how much more fuel you would need over your stock map just with basic math. 

I have a stock cam 630cc tune, with a 2.75" maf housing and stock sensor. The car runs better overall, but that does not mean it's not lean before it starts adding more fuel .... that's how it works. Lean happens before it can fully compensate. 

By the way, i'm tooling around on 6psi of wastegate spring and it's trimming that much! (verified vacuum leak free for the most part, pretty sure my air intake sensor seal is semi shot, but not horribly bad. just a 40rpm or so idle hunt that is 100% gauge dampened.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Back to this thread. 

I know that Maestro7 is going to be updated shortly in order to manage this VVT tensioner. However, I don't know when it is going to be released. That's why I decided to buy a MSD 8969 DIGITAL RPM WINDOW SWITCH. I should receive it from the US within 10 days. 

I will let you know as soon as I hook it up.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Back to this thread.
> 
> I know that Maestro7 is going to be updated shortly in order to manage this VVT tensioner. However, I don't know when it is going to be released. That's why I decided to buy a MSD 8969 DIGITAL RPM WINDOW SWITCH. I should receive it from the US within 10 days.
> 
> I will let you know as soon as I hook it up.


 I would email TAPP. There will be no "UPDATE"--as the cam enabled files use a different file construction I was told. In order to enable the VVT control you must flash a file with the new format provided by Chris. I believe he is still working on the files but he seems to be releasing them to more and more people so it may be worth a shot to email him about it. :thumbup:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> I would email TAPP. There will be no "UPDATE"--as the cam enabled files use a different file construction I was told. In order to enable the VVT control you must flash a file with the new format provided by Chris. I believe he is still working on the files but he seems to be releasing them to more and more people so it may be worth a shot to email him about it. :thumbup:


 Yes I know it is a different SW file (and not only maps). I'm going to send an email to Chris and I will let you know the outcome.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Unitronic has the same deal, if your tune is VVT deleted, a hard tensioner is REQUIRED for the tune..... If it is not, a VVT tensioner as required, due to the differences NeverGiveUp postd for us  Thanks again man.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Earlier someone stated it doesn't matter what polarity you hook up the VVT sensor. 

I think you're wrong. 

Inside the VVT sensor is an electronic solenoid (inductor). When you energize is (with +12 for instance) you cause the solenoid to move and the inductor to create a strong magnetic field. When you remove the +12 the field collapses...causing a strong back EMF (read as a high voltage surge) that can potentially kill electronics. 

Try this... 

Unplug the VVT. Hook up your continuity checker from left -> right. If it beeps then hook it up right -> left. If it beeps also then it doesn't matter what way you hook it up. Aka...there is no internal protection diode. If it only beeps one way then it does matter which way you hook it up.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

groggory said:


> Earlier someone stated it doesn't matter what polarity you hook up the VVT sensor.
> 
> I think you're wrong.
> 
> ...


 OK I will do this test. However, when I tested it with a +13V battery the cam position changed whatever polarity was used.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

I gave a call to Chris Tapp this afternoon. He told me that the new flash file to be loaded into the ECU in order to be able to manage the VVT will be available in the next days or weeks within the next MaestroEditor package which will be available for download from his website.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

NeverGiveUp said:


> I gave a call to Chris Tapp this afternoon. He told me that the new flash file to be loaded into the ECU in order to be able to manage the VVT will be available in the next days or weeks within the next MaestroEditor package which will be available for download from his website.


Incase anyone missed it; the latest update to Maestro now includes several tunes. Update, open maestro, file--->load base map. The VVT files are in there. :heart:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

groggory said:


> Earlier someone stated it doesn't matter what polarity you hook up the VVT sensor.
> 
> I think you're wrong.
> 
> ...


I hooked up the continuity checker and it beeps whatever the polarity is. So it shouldn't matter what pin is set to +12V.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> Incase anyone missed it; the latest update to Maestro now includes several tunes. Update, open maestro, file--->load base map. The VVT files are in there. :heart:


Yes I downloaded it as soon as it was available. I will probably flash the ECU next WE with it.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Here are some logs I made with Maestro and the VVT file with the VVT tensioner I installed. 

My setup: 
GT2871 0,86A/R 
ATP exhaust manifold 
stock TB 
AGU ported head 
SEM Intake Manifold Large ports 
Siemens 630cc 
Stock displacement 
FMIC 
3" TurboBack 
No MAF 
3 bar FPR 
Apexi AVC-R set to 1,15bar 
Stock cams 

Intake temps and Desired Lambda are identical between those 2 runs. 
Disregard the boost at high rpm. That's an issue I will have to look into. 
1st run without activating the VVT. 
2nd run activating the VVT all the time. 



















That's around 200rpm better spool with the VVT activated (probably more with more boost). 

The crossover point is around 5300rpm.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks for posting those Maestro graphs. That's exactly the delta I'd expect. 



NeverGiveUp said:


> Disregard the boost at high rpm. That's an issue I will have to look into.


 Can you elaborate? Are you getting breakup associated with the spike in upper rpm boost?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

i have a uni 630cc file for vvt. 
i had the car setup with a mechanical tensioner. 
ran fine. 

i added the vvt.... 
i notice on cold startups the car has a higher rpm. 
thats the only difference i can notice.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Here are some logs I made with Maestro and the VVT file with the VVT tensioner I installed.
> 
> My setup:
> GT2871 0,86A/R
> ...


 Which is the point at which torque and hp are equal. Turn the VVT off around there and things will continue to pull hard.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for posting those Maestro graphs. That's exactly the delta I'd expect.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you elaborate? Are you getting breakup associated with the spike in upper rpm boost?


 Looks like he simply graphed some of the data during shifting. 



Small gains on quick spooling turbos, huge gains on laggy turbos. 
I'll be hitting the dyno next month to see how VVT affected my TQ curve.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Boost is controlled with an Apexi AVC-R. I will have to check the wastegate as well. I'm pretty sure this issue has nothing to do with the VVT or NonVVT tensioner. 

I have a day off tomorrow. I will upload the VVT file with the switch over point set to 5300rpm and post the results later on.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

good info 
:thumbup:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

are we all sure that activating the solenoid during high rpms is safe in terms of valve contact ? 
should you have tighter springs to make sure the valves dont hit?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

speed51133! said:


> are we all sure that activating the solenoid during high rpms is safe in terms of valve contact ?
> should you have tighter springs to make sure the valves dont hit?


 Well I'm running VVT in AEB with Audi 20mm wrist pin pistons w/ adjustable cat gear. However, my gear is a smidge retarded (like a 1/4 degree according to the CAT mark--at the time I couldn't find information on clearances and IE wouldn't help on the phone). I don't even know the compression ratio of the pistons I put in :sly: Through my internet searches I think I found somewhere there is about 30 degrees of clearance stock; VVT advance is 22 degress. I've reved to 7600 RPM on my setup.


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## 71camaro (Apr 20, 2009)

Hey TooLFan, inbox is full, please clear it:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A while back I came across this excerpt from an Audi Self Study guide for the 30v 6-cyl engine. It's interesting to note that VVT was presented as a performance technology -- not just for emissions:


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

speed51133! said:


> are we all sure that activating the solenoid during high rpms is safe in terms of valve contact ?
> should you have tighter springs to make sure the valves dont hit?


i'd like to know this as well. Running AEB with VVT and 8.5:1 20mm Wiseco's. Lots of clearance but would still be nice to know for piece of mind.

Running Tapp's VVT file so far with no issues so im assuming its safe lol


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

I'm using VVT to make powaa  It's much better than no VVT, will be hitting the dyno soon.


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

Big_Tom said:


> I'm using VVT to make powaa  It's much better than no VVT, will be hitting the dyno soon.


you are one lucky sob


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

VVT is fine with an AutoTech 195, or an IE "Street" or CatCam 3651. 034 Motorsports tested using the 3658s. Also ok.


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## SMOKii3Y (Jan 28, 2009)

using VVT on stock head and cams can that cause an issue ?

maestro tune . .


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm using a VVT file right now on my GTT with Ethanol. I'm trying something different which may or may not have any extra effect. I know it's good for spool, but since the turbo I'm using has "instaspool" and I'm running a low boost level to see the effect I'll find out soon. I'm running the VVT a little later ~2500rpm all the way to ~6000rpm I'm hoping it'll allow me to make more power at low boost by hopefully increasing the flow a bit. 

I'm not sure how much I notice the difference, I do know since I've added it to my E85 low boost file I've been able to add ridiculous amounts of timing. From feel alone it seems like my powerband is infinite. HP is not as high as it could be (that's not the point) I'm just trying to make as much power as I can for as much of the rpm range as possible. 

Strangely enough I can hear the cam / vvt engage. Not sure if it's good or bad though... It sounds exactly like my friends SRT-4 that has a mildly upgraded turbo and a mild cam. The Jetta From 3000rpm on it gets really loud, noticeably different and it feels like it has a bigger cam than it does...

I dunno... The only difference from this file and my other one is the VVT. 

It did make my IC go up too... I was ~2-3% +/- across the board and now I'm seeing 5-9 +/- from 3000-redline.


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## kingREPTAR (Jul 27, 2012)

Has anyone accomplished this using 034EFI IC?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> I'm using a VVT file right now on my GTT with Ethanol. I'm trying something different which may or may not have any extra effect. I know it's good for spool, but since the turbo I'm using has "instaspool" and I'm running a low boost level to see the effect I'll find out soon. I'm running the VVT a little later ~2500rpm all the way to ~6000rpm I'm hoping it'll allow me to make more power at low boost by hopefully increasing the flow a bit.
> 
> I'm not sure how much I notice the difference, I do know since I've added it to my E85 low boost file I've been able to add ridiculous amounts of timing. From feel alone it seems like my powerband is infinite. HP is not as high as it could be (that's not the point) I'm just trying to make as much power as I can for as much of the rpm range as possible.
> 
> ...


switching vvt also switches between ign maps... so more than one thing occuring.
I have not seen a turbo spool up and make more torque sooner with vvt off as yet


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## rockersteady (Apr 25, 2011)

VVT on = advance intake cam approx 22* (rotated clockwise)

Can any one confirm this is 22* crank (11* cam) or 22* actual cam advance?
from the bently figures for valve opening it "looks" like crank degrees?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Added to FAQ


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

rockersteady said:


> VVT on = advance intake cam approx 22* (rotated clockwise)
> 
> Can any one confirm this is 22* crank (11* cam) or 22* actual cam advance?
> from the bently figures for valve opening it "looks" like crank degrees?


the vvt solenoid can roll the cam 11˚. This translates to 22˚ at the crankshaft.


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## 02TTQuattro (Feb 21, 2013)

So did anyone ever prove that VVT can make more power and help the powerband?


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## PernellGTI (Jan 1, 2010)

02TTQuattro said:


> So did anyone ever prove that VVT can make more power and help the powerband?


I rarely come around the vortex anymore, I found this thread yesterday and I wanted to engage... I never flashed my ecu with the VVT file but today I will and will also log and test drive, then during the week I will dyno the car with and without the VVT active just to show results. Though, this is definitely a win win... you are going to see faster spool and more power. Just by changing one thing.


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## bk56190 (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi guys, 

I installed a VVT tensioner, made some logs. I'll soon go to the dyno. 

My setup : 
1.8T 9.5:1 CR
K04
FMIC
Sportcat
386cc injectors with FPR 3B
Boost set to 1,4bar from 3500 to 6000tr/min

Here the logs, same boost, same ignition advance : 



















Crossover is around 4800tr/min.

I haven't test yet on dyno but I think that more load = more HP 

Now, I would like to install a windows RPM switch, to switch VVT ON between 2000 and 4800tr/min. Does somebody know how to do for the rpm input ?


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

You'll have a decent torque spike compared to non-VVT but it may effect top end torque past 5500. The drop off isn't too bad based on load but with a bit more playing on your part you maybe able so save that slight dropoff, if you can do that your peak whp will undoubtedly benefit. I would try limiting VVT to 3500-3800 see if that helps keep load up top. You may have already found the happy medium though looks like some good gain's to me but you won't know until you hit the rollers. Sometimes you have to make some sacrifices to peak torque if your looking for max hp. The key is holding that torque to redline.


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## bk56190 (Nov 22, 2010)

Budsdubbin said:


> You'll have a decent torque spike compared to non-VVT but it may effect top end torque past 5500. The drop off isn't too bad based on load but with a bit more playing on your part you maybe able so save that slight dropoff, if you can do that your peak whp will undoubtedly benefit. I would try limiting VVT to 3500-3800 see if that helps keep load up top. You may have already found the happy medium though looks like some good gain's to me but you won't know until you hit the rollers. Sometimes you have to make some sacrifices to peak torque if your looking for max hp. The key is holding that torque to redline.


Yes, I have to go to dyno to compare. If max hp lost is weak (after 5000rpm), maybe I could have VVT ON on the entire rpm band. Just 1 issue, idling is a bit bad when VVT ON


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

bk56190 said:


> My setup :
> 1.8T 9.5:1 CR
> K04
> FMIC
> ...



Your results square pretty well with the data we collected when testing the VVT system some time ago. Here's what we observed when locking the solenoid in the two positions available:


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## bk56190 (Nov 22, 2010)

Your ECU adapts request load/boost when VVT ON. Less VE after 5000rpm so more boost request. Mine doesn't adapt (old ME7).

More this log, do you go to the dyno to test with and without VVT ?


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## silviu_18t (May 17, 2014)

I have a vvt for power.After changing between gears and not in boost ,the cars runs on 0 boost/vacuum until the turbo makes boost.Up to 3000 rpms it has +22° and after 3000 to 7500 downgrades the axles progresively to -22°.It has a very big impact for Bigturbo setup...runs great on N/A and helps turbo spool quickly.


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## GolfPuttPutt (Sep 27, 2013)

*ME7*

Would It be possible to get this to run (engage in an rpm window) using ME7 and no window switch so you would retain the warmup function that the VVT serves purpose for?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

GolfPuttPutt said:


> Would It be possible to get this to run (engage in an rpm window) using ME7 and no window switch so you would retain the warmup function that the VVT serves purpose for?


Maestro can utilize this using the factory ECU.


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## GolfPuttPutt (Sep 27, 2013)

Ah ok, I'm using Tunerpro as of now, Perhaps I may convert if I can't figure it out in that software.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

Very nice thread


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## notoriousg (Aug 15, 2018)

Good day guys, the Thread is awesome but it seems it stayed unfinished. Can someone clear it out please. From what i read vvt can now be controlled by:
1) Megasquirt3 with pwm signal and it can be precisely adjusted
2) it can also be adjusted with Maestro7 software
This 2 methods are extremely useful for proper tuning adjustments when using big turbos where they need to spool at lower rpms. So if it can be PWM controlled from 0-to some value then it can also be ON or OFF right? Also what do people with non VVT engines need to get to be able to use it either with Mega3, M7 or simply ON and OFF at certain RPM? Any info is appreciated, thanks.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I believe if you try and do actual angle control you will burn out the solenoid. Professor Jeff I believe did that testing early on with his ms3 install.


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## notoriousg (Aug 15, 2018)

Yes, he did mention that using pwm to control it with the Ms3 shortens it life and eventualy it dies.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The sweep is also not very large so gains mid sweep are likely not huge as well.


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## notoriousg (Aug 15, 2018)

So i guess it's better to use it as ON at certin rpm and OFF after some rpm?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yes. Easiest to do pulls w off and on and compare.


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## Al3xG (Nov 26, 2019)

This thread seems to have died out... Let's revive it a bit 
I'm just rebuilding an AGU, is it worth going for the VVT tensioner? Stock head at first (springs and cams will go in later).
Just looking for improved spool. Turbo will be a GTX2867R Gen2. Stock displacement.
Thanks


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Look into the thread and read and you'll find your answer. Secondly, that turbo has sick like spool. Anything ever would be silly and somewhat useless unless your awd.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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