# CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running!



## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

Very little about this car has been posted on the internet, so most here don't know about it. 
Car: '77 Audi Fox 2-door, Reseda Green
Engine: 1.85L made from 1.7L crank, Audi turbo rods and 82.5mm JE pistons, machined out for 7.2:1 CR. Ported head, stainless valves, (for now) Autotech 266 cam, TT pulley, ABA steel head gasket, ARP studs
Turbo system: K24 turbo with 20V compressor and 5K TD turbine and air cooled center, 5K TD exhaust manifold, front mounted 18*8.75*2.75 Griffin intercooler, home-made plumbing, pierburg BOV
Fuel and ignition: KE Jetronic from MB V8, VW CIS-E harness and ECU with knock-sensing ignition and turbo coil. For the moment, ignition is totally under the control of the knock ECU. I might eventually change the ignition if somebody convinces me this setup is not effective.
Suspension and brakes: SRS coil overs with 300/250 springs, Bilstein struts (Rabbit rears, 4K fronts,) 9.4" vented front brakes with Mintex C-Tech "Road Rally" pads and power slots, 8.9" disk rears with Minted Redbox pads. 
Wheels and tires: Ronal R8 15*6 and Potenza S-03 Pole Positions.
So far, the car is running very well. Under boost, mixture is pretty stsble around 13-13.5:1, which is a little bit lean and requires a bit more adjustment. Boost is at 14 PSI, limited by stock wastegate. Plans for the immediate future are a boost controller, 20 PSI boost and some more fuel. 
The MB fuel distributor is working very well so far, but it requires WAY more space than the four cylinder units. I had to cut a huge hole in the right side fender well and build a stainless steel insert to allow space. As is, the far wall of the insert is in contact with the connector for the RF marker lamp. Other than fitment, the fuel distributor is functioning very well, even with a dead potentiometer. Idle was WAY too fat and required lots of leaning out to get it right. So far, tuning for power has been uneventful.
The extra four injectors are mounted in welded-in mounts in the intake manifold runners. 
The fuel system is a bit unconventional, and many hardcore CIS guys might say it is copping out to use an extra row of injectors to get the required amont of fuel. At the current output, I could fuel the engine on four injectors and an updraft four cylinder FD. But I intend to do what it takes to get this car to 300 HP, which is well beyond the capacity of four normal CIS injectors.


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

I knew a MB dist. would work [on paper] and I am glad that someone has proven it. 
The potentiometer is used as an input to help with acceleration and cold running. You probably will not need it for your system.
Good luck and so us pictures of your butchery.


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Butcher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Butcher* »_The potentiometer is used as an input to help with acceleration and cold running. You probably will not need it for your system.

Yup. I think it also provides input for deceleration/coasting as well. But once the FTS is engaged, the DPR gets a straight diet of 12 milliamps. After that, it doesn't matter at all. 

_Quote »_Good luck and so us pictures of your butchery.

As soon as possible. I need to give it a bath and snap some digital pics.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

Excellent! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You will have to do some fuel flow tests so we know what that setup is capable off... I certainly don't think you are copping out... all I can say is good work and keep it up...
best regards,
Peter T.
PS: post pics so I can have a new screensaver background


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_Excellent! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You will have to do some fuel flow tests so we know what that setup is capable off... I certainly don't think you are copping out... all I can say is good work and keep it up...
best regards,
Peter T.
PS: post pics so I can have a new screensaver background









Thanks, Peter. I could at least send you some pics by the end of the day. If I send them, will you post them up in this thread and/or the one I started in the Fox forum?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

Of course I will! Send em over and I'll email you the links so you can post the pics up yourself...


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

Images, I hope. I have had problems viewing the images I have been posting. Somebody let me know if they see eight images.


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## UberMike (Dec 9, 2003)

Awesome work!! I only see 6 images and 2 red X's
How would this be achieved in a regular Fox?


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (UberMike)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UberMike* »_Awesome work!! I only see 6 images and 2 red X's
How would this be achieved in a regular Fox?

And by "regular" you mean Volkswagen? It would be more or less the same thing, except that the intercooler could probably be mostly concealed in the bumper cover. B1, B2 and BX VWs have more or less the exact same engine bay.


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## rossmc1 (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Peter Tong)*

8 pictures r there,and looking very nice,the car(is it same a s UK Audi 50),any links to pics of the it(or post one please),bet that thing flies must shock a few people in that.Nice clean looking set up,is your rocker cover powder coated or is it painted?Last do u have a picture of the oil return at the pan(im planning something similar with pipe instead on line(i going to run pipe right into pan,so will be one piece apart from a flex somewhere.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif :


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (rossmc1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rossmc1* »_8 pictures r there,and looking very nice,the car(is it same a s UK Audi 50),any links to pics of the it(or post one please),bet that thing flies must shock a few people in that.Nice clean looking set up,is your rocker cover powder coated or is it painted?Last do u have a picture of the oil return at the pan(im planning something similar with pipe instead on line(i going to run pipe right into pan,so will be one piece apart from a flex somewhere. 

It's the same as a European Audi 80, not 50.
Cam cover is painted. I will try to get pics of the oil return.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (rossmc1)*

Excellent work Jonathan!
I bet Tox is smiling a mile a minute because of the CIS love http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Excellent work Jonathan!
I bet Tox is smiling a mile a minute because of the CIS love http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Heh! Issam, I finally found that 80 flywheel a couple weeks ago. Do you still need measurements? Do you still need cylinder-to-firewall measurements?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Longitudinal* »_Heh! Issam, I finally found that 80 flywheel a couple weeks ago. Do you still need measurements? Do you still need cylinder-to-firewall measurements?

I am home now.I just need the 80 flywheel info to send to Spec.Ended up going to the A4 1.8T route and running into problems as the 80 PP is slightly wider in diameter.
Right now I am about 5m from the Audi(s) so I just took the measurements.Thanks for reminding me!








come back on MG man....


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Wizard-of-OD)*

HOLY BAD ASS!!!
Now that's the kinda shiz I like to see around here!
You Sir...know what the [email protected]#$ is going on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Much love for your fox!
Jason


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_HOLY BAD ASS!!!
Now that's the kinda shiz I like to see around here!
You Sir...know what the [email protected]#$ is going on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Much love for your fox!
Jason

Thanks. I intend to turn in the screws today: I want to hit 20 PSI and add a little more fuel before I go to Canada for a week.


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

I'm a little confused...
you have 4 injectors ported in the stock location, and the other 4 injectors ported in a "log" manifold just "upstream" of the stock location???
how do you have them "sequenced"?
interesting use of a larger FD and injectors to meet higher fueling needs... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_come back on MG man.

Not sure what I would do there. I just don't deal well with rough, arrogant, self-assured, slanderizing characters. John's (DOC) last post about me was baseless and deceitful. I am probably better off letting those guys pigeonhole me as whatever stereotype they want me to be and living my life elsewhere. I did learn a valuable lesson from MG: express no opinion to anybody, anywhere, ever if your opinion stands the littlest chance of being unpopular. 
It's the best forum on the internet for technical information, as there are many people there tens of years ahead of me. But to me, it's just not worth the price.


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (lsinlv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lsinlv* »_I'm a little confused...
you have 4 injectors ported in the stock location, and the other 4 injectors ported in a "log" manifold just "upstream" of the stock location???
how do you have them "sequenced"?

Ah, sequence. Sequencing constant injection is always tricky.







There is no sequence. CIS sprays all nozzles all the time: there is no pulsing, no timing.


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Longitudinal* »_
Ah, sequence. Sequencing constant injection is always tricky.







There is no sequence. CIS sprays all nozzles all the time: there is no pulsing, no timing.


I understand that, but I think I worded it wrong CIS = Constant Injection System ..and have been working on them in Porsches since the mid 80's...what I was trying to say....
how do you have the injectors pulsing fuel into the intake/cylinders??? obviously the head has only a single injector port....how it is the additional metered fuel getting into the cylinders if not through the injector port....


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

Jonathan,
Do you have a filter at the outlet of the downdraft meter? Or are you planning on running an Audi 5k boot... doesn't look like there's much room! I've got one of those units - and yes they are huge relative to the existing CIS stuff... all I can say is that your installation makes it look easy...
Do you have a wideband? If you do hit the dyno - hit a dynojet with AFR... I'd be seriously interested to see what the AFR looks like....
Excellent work...innovative, and unique all in one package... I like it! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
best regards from a fellow CIS diehard


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Longitudinal* »_Not sure what I would do there. I just don't deal well with rough, arrogant, self-assured, slanderizing characters. John's (DOC) last post about me was baseless and deceitful.

Jonathan your going to let one forum member out of 800 bother you?Motorgeek awaits you....
What engine mounts are you using?


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## 85roccoZ400 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_
Excellent work...innovative, and unique all in one package... I like it! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
best regards from a fellow CIS diehard









Wow is all I have to say I will agree with Peter, I can't wait to see the dyno numbers and the AFR reading.
Keep us posted.


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

nice! post a pic of the whole car!


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (lsinlv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lsinlv* »_how do you have the injectors pulsing fuel into the intake/cylinders??? obviously the head has only a single injector port....how it is the additional metered fuel getting into the cylinders if not through the injector port....

It's simple. First, they're not pulsing. The engine is drawing air into each port on each intake stroke. On each cylinder, one injector is in the port and one is in the intake runner. When the intake valve opens, the piston draws in all the air it can take, along with all the fuel the two injectors have been spraying since the last intake stroke. That's it.


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## instg8r (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

i'd like to see a a pic of the car


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (instg8r)*

Ha ha, that thing rules! I say get a Quattro rear end and just run one driveshaft all the way back.....RWD vintage sleeper Audi.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Mr Black)*

The MB FD works like the ~other CIS units?
Where you have a single injector in the dump/return line
and regulate the fueling by controlling how much the
injector dumps back to tank?
Bosch call this injector a 'valve' while it is a valve
it is basically a single 160# fuel injector. (well at least
my SAAB CIS was)

If you have ~trouble getting idle to lean out, add another 'dump'
injector back to tank.... (suggestion only)
for ha ha's try connecting some sort of programable controller
to the 'dump' injector... maybe make ~fully mapable CIS.

REALLY neat stuff.
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_The MB FD works like the ~other CIS units?
Where you have a single injector in the dump/return line
and regulate the fueling by controlling how much the
injector dumps back to tank?

Well, there are MB units working the way you have described, but not this one: this is CIS-E (KE Jetronic .) KE Jetronic does not work by bleeding off increasing amounts of fuel with increasing demand. KE Jetronic works by using the differential pressure regulator to restrict fuel supplied to the lower chambers, which decreases lower chamber pressure, which decreases upper chamber pressure, which INcreases differential pressure, which means there is a larger pressure drop between the system pressure at the barrel, which means that more fuel is allowed to flow through each slit and to each injector. It's a better idea than the previous system. But the distributor itself tends not to flow as much fuel per injector because of design changes.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

Audi Fox!!! Very, very cool. Good luck with an excellent project.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

that's awesome!! great job http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Gigante (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (MFZERO)*

where can I find a valve cover like that?!


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Gigante)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gigante* »_where can I find a valve cover like that?!









VW Corrado. They come in bare aluminum.


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## GTInoise (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (Longitudinal)*

What happened to this? Did the car ever get tuned? Results?


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

not bad for a hairlip


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## iluvfastcarz (Mar 15, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (GTInoise)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTInoise* »_What happened to this? Did the car ever get tuned? Results?

Holy crap, brought this back from the dead. My friend Longitudinal is no longer active on this forum. The car has been resting for a few years. The engine setup went in the what is now my car "see link below" and the bottom end has found its way into another Fox.


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## GTInoise (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (iluvfastcarz)*

Thats running CIS injection from the MB? 
Other specs on the motor? its a beast!


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## iluvfastcarz (Mar 15, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E Turbo Audi Fox is running! (GTInoise)*

Specs are at the top of the page.
1.8L block
1.7L crank
Audi MC1 connecting rods
Custom JE Pistons with 7.2??.1 CR


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

what year mercedse came with this FD? i have about 10 mercedes from the late 80 and early 90 to my disposal.
thank you. and now i want to put a stop to my aba 16v turbo biuld and persue the cis turbo route. thank you for inspiring me


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

will a 85 mercedes have the FD i want and did mercedes ever run cis with turbo? to try and find a wur from the same car


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