# Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review



## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Giles'*

due to popular demand, here it is.......
for those who dont know i got a "performance" injection pump built by Giles. the performance rebuild costs about $100 more than a standard rebuild. VERY much worth the money IMO. i drive a 1984 jetta coupe with a 1.6L NA diesel engine that came stock with 52bhp. Giles used a gtech dyno to do a before and after and he claims it adds ~20hp, and i can say for sure that you *will* notice the difference. im hoping to have the car dyno'd soon and i will post that as soon as ive done it. 
ive put nearly 1000k miles since ive had the pump installed and im _*very *_happy to report that it hasnt had any negative effect on fuel economy (as long as the right foot stays light). actually before i got the pump done, i was leaking diesel so my miles per tank has gone back up to ~400 miles per tank. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif (thats ~40mpg)
before the rebuilt pump i was like most NA diesel drivers, ie: stuck in the slow lane. nowadays im driving with my speedo maxed out at 85mph passing cars. when was the last time _you_ passed someone on the highway in _your_ NA diesel








the 70hp beast








another happy Superior Fuel Injection customer right here












_Modified by 2manvr6 at 9:48 PM 1-26-2006_


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*

One more review from another happy Giles pump user (me).








The beast:
















The pump's stamped "Stage 4." I have a similar 1.6 diesel but with turbo. I'm at least as quick as a MK3 VR6 and a chip + injector upgraded 1.9L MKIV TDI. That is with zero smoke. Yes, you can't even see a speck of smoke out of my exhaust at any RPM. Still on stock injectors, stock cam, 9mm pump head, and no intercooling (yet). I do have a ported 1.9 head and GT20 turbo though. 
I've had a DIY pump done in another 1.6TD of mine before this one; fuel screw turned up, modded boost pin, timing advanced to 1.05mm, and governor mod, but it still does not match up to Giles' work. I believe the largest differences in Giles' pump is the higher lift camplate from a 1.9L TD and max fuel timing at approx. 23 degrees.
I can't say how my mileage is because I don't have an odometer and my engine's still new with less than 10,000km.
Right now I'm running a stock NA pump because the Giles pump is awaiting an upgrade. I need more fuel to solve my no-smoke problem







. I tried a brand new set of GTD nozzles but they gave me less power. I have another set of GTDs that I will try though. I also need to be able to rev to ~6,500 RPM again like I used to with the DIY pump. Giles thinks he could prep a 7,000 RPM pump so let's see how it works out!
2manvr6, you just picked up a '79?







What are your plans with it?


_Modified by Malone at 10:09 AM 1-27-2006_


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malone* »_
2manvr6, you just picked up a '79?







What are your plans with it?


the rabbit is going to get my gas engine im building right now, its a cross-flow PG combo with a nice turbo to motivate it. im pulling the diesel motor out of the rabbit and i will be porting the head and saving the block as a backup for my jetta.








as it stands now i have 2 projects going, the daily driver jetta and the weekend rabbit. once the rabbit is restored and running, ill be back to playing with the jetta.ill have the ported head, dual downpipe, newer intake manifold, hopefully a cam also all waiting for it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*

Sweet http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TexasVWdriver (Nov 29, 2000)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

Rebuild is about $650US, right?
How much was shipping to and from Canada?


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malone* »_ I'm at least as quick as a MK3 VR6 

You do realize a MK3 VR does a 15.1 in the quarter mile , alot of the high powered TDIs don't come close to that #. I'm not trying to flame you here, but I have a hard time believing a 1.6 TD can put enough power to the ground to make a 15.1 quarter mile pass, hell I'd have a hard time believing a 1.6TD could even make a 16.5 quartermile pass........................bump for a nice looking pump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_You do realize a MK3 VR does a 15.1 in the quarter mile

Yes, although you're quoting a number that only a small percentage of drivers can achieve in favourable track conditions. Mid 15's is more common, I've seen plenty of 15.5 to 15.8.

_Quote »_alot of the high powered TDIs don't come close to that #. I'm not trying to flame you here, but I have a hard time believing a 1.6 TD can put enough power to the ground to make a 15.1 quarter mile pass

People's doubts like this reminds me why I should have kept my 1.6TD power est. and goals quiet. But now you got me started..








I have been in many modified TDIs - see my signature for a hint. The quickest one I know if is in the mid-high 14's (1.9L ALH). FYI I sold my 70,000km 1.9 TDI with worked head so I can have more diesel power... yes, you guessed right, the 1.6TD. On my 1.6 I'm using a turbo kit that was marketed for the 1.9 TDIs. 
I drove a MK3 VR6 about 4 years ago and thought it was powerful, definitely quicker than the 1.8L 8v gasoline engine my MK3 used to have. A friend has a MK3 VR6 now, last year it still felt pretty strong, just like when I first drove a VR6. However, after having driven my 1.6TD for a while and then joining his VR6 for a midnight Denny's run this year, it felt _gutless_. I had to ask if he was going WOT







. We eventually went for a race with my 1.6TD (both cars with full interior) and I was ahead of him a little. I'm currently only using 50% of this 1.6's potential, with lots more to go. 


_Modified by Malone at 10:41 AM 1-27-2006_


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

You think a 132hp and 156lbs of torque will put you ahead of a VR?? Do you have a time slip for your car??? 

I have a feeling if you brought your car to a shop that has a mustang dyno you wouldn't be putting down 132whp.
I have seen very fast IDI diesels, I know of one guy in Brazil whos running a 1.9IDI mk1 caddy, which ran 13's, however he had to spend alot of money to get it to that level, and there certainly wasn't much stock VW engine parts left in the motor.
I admire your aspiration to dominate the diesels with a wee little 1.6L, but you gotta understand, skeptic's like me are gonna want something more than a G-tect printoff to prove your car is what you say it is.
Show me a vid of your car catching a 15 sec quarter mile and I'll gladly eat my crow. 
BTW your bud's 16V has some serious issues, his #'s are definitely below normal. 
Good luck with the car


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_You think a 132hp and 156lbs of torque will put you ahead of a VR??
BTW your bud's 16V has some serious issues, his #'s are definitely below normal. 

Those aren't whp figures, they're nhp figures (lower). _Big_ difference.

_Quote »_Show me a vid of your car catching a 15 sec quarter mile and I'll gladly eat my crow. 

I'm looking forward to it. Shall I ask what you will eat if I showed you a 14 second timeslip?








BTW my 1.6 block is stock and the build was done on a small budget (cheaper than a 1.8T swap), unlike that expensive Brazilian 1.9 IDI. The 1.9 IDIs aren't great performers, which is why I chose the 1.6. 
I'll be racing this season http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Mission Raceway opens in March.


_Modified by Malone at 9:23 AM 1-30-2006_


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## I once had a jetta (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

I'm not a skeptic like some others, but I would love to see a video too.
would this pump mod be the first mod on the list of upgrades on an IDI? or should I do the other "free" mods first?


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (I once had a jetta)*

I only have one video of the 1.6 for now, here:
http://media.putfile.com/Malon...audio
The engine had less than 1,000 miles when I took that. Regular break-in driving and the 'texers mostly wanted to hear the sound. 
I definitely will take a video with the pedal to the floor http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif as soon as I get my Giles pump reinstalled. There won't be videos of 1/4 mile races until March because the track isn't open until then.
P.S. all the rattles in the video is from the 3" exhaust hitting the beam and the intercooler pipe tapping the top of the alternator. Some of these rattles are gone now.


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (I once had a jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I once had a jetta* »_would this pump mod be the first mod on the list of upgrades on an IDI? or should I do the other "free" mods first?

If you get a shop to mod your pump, you should tell them what other modifications you have in mind. e.g. if you them that you'll run an intercooler, higher boost, etc. and then they will adjust fueling accordingly. So, you probably wouldn't want to get a pump built for a stock TD with minimal gains if you're planning on adding other mods later. 
However, my Stage 4 Giles pump didn't smoke in my other 1.6TD that was stock unless I floor it (and poof, the highway was filled with a long streak of black smoke 3 lanes wide).. so in normal driving it's stock fueling and the torque was nicer than before. If you unplug the black hose connecting the intake to the fuel pump you won't overfuel - it'll be just like a stock mildly modified pump. 
I say go all-out on the pump (if it doesn't cost that much more) and then keep the fueling reasonable - unleash it later if you add/improve airflow mods.
You can start with free mods here first:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=579


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

So your telling me you're going to run 200whp with a 22.5:1 compression ratio, 
using a small budget and you expect the stock rods,pistons. pre-chamber to hold 200whp.............common man........ not even the science behind what your saying makes sense here.
Really I'm not trying to flame you here, but making a statment about how a 1.6TD IDI can make more power than a TDI is stretching things. 
Find a mustang dyno and put your car on it and we'll see if your #'s are what you think they are........you can do this in the winter time.


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_So your telling me you're going to run 200whp with a 22.5:1 compression ratio, 
using a small budget and you expect the stock rods,pistons. pre-chamber to hold 200whp.............common man........ not even the science behind what your saying makes sense here.
Really I'm not trying to flame you here, but making a statment about how a 1.6TD IDI can make more power than a TDI is stretching things. 
Find a mustang dyno and put your car on it and we'll see if your #'s are what you think they are........you can do this in the winter time.

I'm not saying that the 1.6 will ultimately be more powerful than a 1.9 TDI. I intend to break the 200whp barrier before any 1.9 TDI in NA.
The compression is not 22.5:1. I destroyed two 1.6TD engines last year so I have a fairly good idea of what is realistic and what is not. You're forgetting one crucial thing concerning my whp goal: RPM. 
Most, if not all, stock & heavily modified 1.9 TDIs' torque peaks at ~2,500 RPM and then drops off very quickly, limiting HP. My torque peaks at 4,000 RPM with 90% of it still available at 5,000 RPM. It will be higher with more fuel, intercooling and upgraded cam. Based on the power curve you could call my IDI a gasser, like a 200hp 1.8L 8v w/ junkyard turbo that could be built for peanuts (but with better low RPM torque). 
We have seen 1.9 TDIs put down at least 350 wheel torque. Been there, done that. All I need is a meager 191 wheel torque @ 5,500 RPM to achieve 200whp simply due to the fact that the 1.6 is able to produce torque during higher RPM.
My 1.6 will still have less torque than the modified 1.9 TDIs, but my goal is to have a more usable powerband, which does not involve over [email protected],500RPM in a street FWD vehicle. The OEM 1.6 rods are limited to 290 wheel torque from what I gather. I had my rods shot-peened (I forgot that wasn't stock) but it may not make much of a difference. 
Not to forget a 7,000 RPM pump that Giles is interested in building. One disadvantage that the rotary pump 1.9 TDIs have in upper RPM performance is the limited timing advance; approx 18 degrees max.
The 1.9 IDI or TDI's massive stroke is 95.5mm whereas the 1.6's is approximately 86.4mm IIRC. 
There's also a difference concerning high RPM combustion performance between IDIs and TDIs, I suggest that you read about it here:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2329
An interesting tidbit from that thread:

_Quote, originally posted by *fspGTD* »_I agree that IDIs are vastly underrated by a lot of DI worshipers.







They mistakenly attribute performance benefits as a result of new technology like intercooling and VNT turbocharging technology to the DI combustion process. Well it's pretty clear now after my VNTD 1.6lIDI experiment, that sticking the same TDI turbocharger with an intercooler on an IDI results in equal or greater power output and more broad usable powerband than a TDI, despite the IDI motor being set up to maintain conservative fueling, have less boost pressure than a stock TDI, not to mention the 1.6 liter block has 20% lower displacement than the 1.9l TDI!

Lastly, a 1.9 AAZ TD vs. 1.6 MF TD block comparison. Some if it applies to AHU/1Z/ALH or other 1.9 TDIs as well:

_Quote »_1: The 1.9 crank is 2lbs heavier than the 1.6 crank, and that 2 lbs is on the very end of the counterweights so the recopricating mass is significantly more.
2: The 1.9 rod caps weigh double of what the 1.6 ones weigh.
3: The 1.9 crank has a longer stroke than the 1.6 crank.

A year ago some people thought I was crazy when I said I'd meet or exceed VR6 performance on the road, but now I already did it. People on the Internet who have not ridden in my car may still be doubtful, but I don't really care. I'll stop talking about my 1.6TD online soon until there are dyno charts or timeslips. Once the Giles pump is re-updated and reinstalled, intercooling is in effect, etc. I will pay for a Mustang dyno run







There is one at BD Power, which is about 45 minutes from my house. BTW why did you choose Mustang? Why not Dyno Dynamics or DynoJet, which is what most people use? Thinking of keeping my #s low as possible?








One reason why I'm enjoying this project with support by Passenger Performance is because not many people have done it. I am educated enough to realize the potential in certain IDIs. It's unique and draws curiosity or criticism. The criticism thing is the same old i.e. Years ago people scoffed at the idea of 250 wheel torque in a 1.9 TDI. 
edit: 200whp needs a larger turbo as my current one is almost stock-sized, so that's not in my short term goal. Back to our original convo; 15 sec 1/4 times is highly possible with less power than that (i.e. 150whp) and that's the first step I'm going for as soon as the 1/4 track opens. Have your crow ready










_Modified by Malone at 4:54 AM 1-28-2006_


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

You can change a TDI's peak torque by simply by going with a bigger turbo.
I have a GT20 on my TDI and my torque peak went from 1900 to 2800rpm. You can also modify the fuel curve to give you peak torque later on in the power band as well.
The reason I chose a mustang dyno is because they seem to give a more real world #. Some of the other dynos force you to take the front wheels off 
which obviously removes recipricating mass times 2, which in my opinion will give higher #'s.
Your comment about the cranks makes no sense at all, there are guys will 2.0's, that stroke their engines using the the 1.9TD crank, they rev the engine out to 8000rpm will no ill affect, so why would you think the tensile load with the crank in a diesel motor would be any different.
22.5:1 is not the correct compression ratio for the 1.6TD???? Hmmmmm.............so your saying VW made a mistake on their #'s????
Finally, how are you planning on keeping the prechambre insert's in the head, with all the fuel you'll be dumping on them? I've worked on engines where something as simple as a bad injecter, put excess heat on the prechambre causing them to crack and fall into the C-chambre, which in turn caused quite abit of damage. As well how are you planning on dropping compression??? A gasket stack is pretty much out of question, start messing with the squish area on an IDI and you'll never get it to start.................
Listen, I admire the fact that your exporing territory that most on this board wouldn't go anywhere near, but again your science isn't adding up.
You think by simply increasing RPM, Fuel, and boost without doing anything else you'll get 200whp. You have to admit it sounds far fetched, shot-peened rods or not......................
Prove me wrong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Burnitwithfire (May 14, 2005)

Well taking to to the extreme, a 1.6IDI's compression ratio isn't 22.5:1, it's 23:1. The bentley told me








Also, Malone's engine probably has different ratio due to major headwork.
I read somewhere on vwdiesel.net that the best ratio for power would be 14:1 (or was it 16:1). Anyway it was lower than stock. The 23:1 is to help in cold start. Can you imagine how hard it would with a 14:1 ratio








There's one thing Malone didn't mention: he didn't have a functionnal intercooler when he g-teched it. Just the air/water thing but it wasn't even full so it didn't do much except to hinder air flow.
With that said... go on guys, it's really interesting!


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## Burnitwithfire (May 14, 2005)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2manvr6* »_When was the last time _you_ passed someone on the highway in _your_ NA diesel










Yesterday actually







although it was very slowly... and potentially dangerous







Fun that I can outcorner any car you shoot at me but can't outaccelerate a garbage truck


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_You can change a TDI's peak torque by simply by going with a bigger turbo.
I have a GT20 on my TDI and my torque peak went from 1900 to 2800rpm. You can also modify the fuel curve to give you peak torque later on in the power band as well.

Cool, I have the same (or similar) wastegated GT20 on my 1.6







Guess we bought them from the same place. The turbo boosts 1.5 PSI at idle in my 1.6! Almost too small for this engine. 
The more popular "big" turbo upgrades for MKIV TDIs are VNT-17 and now VNT-20, which produces lower RPM torque compared to your GT20. Even your 2,800 is still low. I peak at 4,000 RPM with 90% still available @ 5,000 (it will be better after some tuning). You're probably only getting 0-5% at 5,000 RPM with your chip now - think about it. 
Yes you can change where the torque peaks by modifying the torque curve, in fact I'm going to do that for a US customer who will drive up here in BC. He has a VNT-20 w/ other mods and he wants max. 170whp with a max. torque of 275lb-ft @ wheels. Typically 170whp TDIs have well over 300wtq but he wants the torque to be reasonable for a street FWD vehicle and personally I think it's a great idea. He sent me a sample dyno chart showing the max. HP he likes and then I added dotted lines to simulate 275wtq max:








Technically his peak torque may be above 3,000 RPM but by altering the fuel curve you're not going to magically get better top end, you're only removing the lowest torque peak. C'mon you know better than that. The 1.9 TDIs are still limited due to heavy reciprocating internals and limited timing advance. 

_Quote »_Your comment about the cranks makes no sense at all, there are guys will 2.0's, that stroke their engines using the the 1.9TD crank, they rev the engine out to 8000rpm will no ill affect, so why would you think the tensile load with the crank in a diesel motor would be any different.

Look at a 1.5L vs. 1.6L IDI. The 1.5L and 1.6L have identical bores but the 1.5L only has a slightly smaller stroke. As a result the 1.5L's torque or HP peaks 1,000 RPM higher than the 1.6L, with only 3-6hp less than the 1.6 (I don't remember the exact figure but it's below 8hp). The point of destroking in a performance application is to avoid a diesel's inherent drivetrain-smashing torque (or ridiculous burnouts) while improving revs & HP in the top end. I.e. I don't need 400 wheel torque to finally make 200whp. With a gradual but limited torque increase my engine internals & drivetrain will see a lot less stress with nicer HP #s. Do you get it now? There has been talk about destroking a VR6 and 1.8T on this site. The same principles apply to gassers but it is a *huge* benefit to a diesel because when you modify them, it is *too easy to have too much torque and too little HP*. What would your solution be? Please enlighten me. 

_Quote »_22.5:1 is not the correct compression ratio for the 1.6TD???? Hmmmmm.............so your saying VW made a mistake on their #'s????

As Black Smokin' Diesel pointed out it's 23:1 but what I really meant is that my compression has been lowered and no I am not stacking headgaskets. The deck of the head has reliefs grinded down for more volume in the combustion area. 

_Quote »_Finally, how are you planning on keeping the prechambre insert's in the head, with all the fuel you'll be dumping on them? I've worked on engines where something as simple as a bad injecter, put excess heat on the prechambre causing them to crack and fall into the C-chambre, which in turn caused quite abit of damage.

The fuel flow has to be real excessive for that to happen. I've seen a stock ALH TDI rod bend due to a broken nozzle and that's the same type of TDI that can tolerate at least 350wtq (stock rods). 

_Quote »_As well how are you planning on dropping compression??? A gasket stack is pretty much out of question, start messing with the squish area on an IDI and you'll never get it to start.................

You're thinking more about the TDI than a IDI. Please _read_ the IDI vs. TDI combustion differences in the link above. It's very apparent you know very little about how IDIs perform. 
And my IDI in particular is well built to start up just fine with lower compression. Currently my engine fires to life after 1 or 2 cranks in 0 degrees Celsius temperature, and to top it off that's with a small amp battery and a small gasser starter








===========
Have you heard of Shawn van neer, declared the "King of VWs"? He currently runs Kinetic Motorsport that sells the very popular VR6 turbo kits. He used to be a partner at Momentum Motorsport and many of his cars were featured in magazines. He also did one if the earliest, if not the first, MK1 Rabbit VR6 swaps.
Why don't you call him and ask about his 13.5 second 1.6L Rabbit he built a few years ago?







I'm not going to say "I heard..." because I want *you* to call him directly








Tel: 1 604 882 9962 (Kinetic Motorsport)
He ran a few 12mm pump head upgrades (that proved to be unreliable during higher RPM), a T3/T04e50 turbo, and he ported the opening in the pre-chamber inserts so fuel flows through more easily. My 1.6 now has more advanced modifications with a better flowing & ported 1.9L IDI head, more advanced injection pump build, and in the near future a compounded turbo setup.. here's a Holset HX40 napping on my 1.6







It's bigger than the HX35 found on a 5.9L Dodge Cummins diesel. 










_Modified by Malone at 11:16 AM 1-28-2006_


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Black Smokin' Diesel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Black Smokin’ Diesel* »_
Yesterday actually







although it was very slowly... and potentially dangerous







Fun that I can outcorner any car you shoot at me but can't outaccelerate a garbage truck























arent u another Giles Pump customer??


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*

its gone waaaaaaaaaaaay off topic, but dont stop, i love learning more about diesels... i think i might call up shawn van neer myself to see what he has to say


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## Burnitwithfire (May 14, 2005)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2manvr6* »_
arent u another Giles Pump customer??









Not yet, waiting for the money to pile up


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malone* »_Quote »
Your comment about the cranks makes no sense at all, there are guys will 2.0's, that stroke their engines using the the 1.9TD crank, they rev the engine out to 8000rpm will no ill affect, so why would you think the tensile load with the crank in a diesel motor would be any different.
Look at a 1.5L vs. 1.6L IDI. The 1.5L and 1.6L have identical bores but the 1.5L only has a slightly smaller stroke. As a result the 1.5L's torque or HP peaks 1,000 RPM higher than the 1.6L, with only 3-6hp less than the 1.6 (I don't remember the exact figure but it's below 8hp). The point of destroking in a performance application is to avoid a diesel's inherent drivetrain-smashing torque (or ridiculous burnouts) while improving revs & HP in the top end. I.e. I don't need 400 wheel torque to finally make 200whp. With a gradual but limited torque increase my engine internals & drivetrain will see a lot less stress with nicer HP #s. Do you get it now? There has been talk about destroking a VR6 and 1.8T on this site. The same principles apply to gassers but it is a *huge* benefit to a diesel because when you modify them, it is too easy to have too much torque and too little HP. What would your solution be? Please enlighten me

Again you missed the point,I'm talking about inertial(tensile) loads, regardless of the extra weight of the 1.9 crank it can still spin @8000rpm without self-destructing.


> The fuel flow has to be real excessive for that to happen. I've seen a stock ALH TDI rod bend due to a broken nozzle and that's the same type of TDI that can tolerate at least 350wtq (stock rods).
> 
> 
> > The reason the TDI bent a rod is more than likely because of hydrolock, not excessive heat. I don't care what engine your talking about, as soon as you try and compress a fluid the Rod will always be on the losing team.Plain and simple a bad injecter,spraying incorrectly, will put too much heat on the Prechambre, which will cause it to eventually fail.
> ...


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## Jack Bombay (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_Again you missed the point,I'm talking about inertial(tensile) loads, regardless of the extra weight of the 1.9 crank it can still spin @8000rpm without self-destructing. 

I think you missed the point







, its not a weight issue, it's the length of the stroke that makes the 1.6 rev better.


_Modified by Jack Bombay at 4:55 PM 1-30-2006_


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*

FYI my prechamber cups were ceramic coated a month ago. I forgot to mention that.

_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_hell I'd have a hard time believing a 1.6TD could even make a 16.5 quartermile pass........................bump for a nice looking pump 

There are a few mention of 15 and 16 sec 1.6 TDs here:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2882
No real timeslips, but I'll have mine up - eagerly awaiting the opening of the 1/4 mile track in March here.

_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_Now as far as him building a 1.6TD that ran a 13.5....................well to be honest I don't really need to call him, I think its pretty safe to assume that the # is probably overstated. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I can understand some dyno charts being overrated, but how can 1/4 mile times be very overrated/overstated







. The fact is that the engine was a 1.6TD and the fact is it reached the 1/4 mile in mid 13 sec. Clocks/timers are fairly accurate.
None of your rebuttals have much scientific data or some technical info - it all looks like assumptions and doubts to me. You're also ignoring the importance of RPM + torque that has a large effect on HP. You did not answer my question from earlier; seeing as it's very easy to make too much torque and too little HP in a modified diesel, what would your best solution be? 
Great, now that you or or friend have been in contact with Kinetic before you'll have no problems contacting them again to ask about Shawn's 1.6. The quality of their VR6 turbo kit is irrelevant. I find it odd you "think" it's safe to "assume" his 13.5 is overstated - It sounds like you're starting to be reluctant in finding out the potential of the 1.6 TDs... more power to you then.










_Modified by Malone at 2:30 PM 1-30-2006_


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Jack Bombay)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jack Bombay* »_ I think you missed the point







, its not a weight issue, it's the length of the stroke that makes the 1.6 rev better.

_Modified by Jack Bombay at 4:55 PM 1-30-2006_


What exactly are you trying to get at, with rev better ???? If the tensile load on the crank/rods/pistons is stable at 8000rpm who cares which engine revs better.
When Mr Kinetics dragged his 1.6TD and did a 13.5 pass, did he keep his timeslip, did someone sign off on his timeslip???? You know how easy it is to manipulate a timeslip??? To snag a 13.5 pass he'd have to have around 230whp, you can understand why talking to him about it doesn't quite cut it.
You think I'm reluctant to believe the true potential of the 1.6TD, thats wrong. I'm looking for facts, and thus far you've only provided a scattered theory on how you'll gonna build a 200whp TD. You still havn't explained to me how your gonna fuel it properly, and how on earth your gonna keep the engine together. 
I think your misunderstanding me, I'm not trying to prove to you it cannot be done, I'm trying to get you to prove to me that it can http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_You still havn't explained to me how your gonna fuel it properly

Sorry I didn't see you asking me that. I have GTD injectors but they aren't large enough. Dave, who runs Passenger Performance, has 3.0L Mercedes Benz diesel injectors and 6.2L GM diesel injectors. I bought an injector pop tester a while ago and both sets of injectors will be tested prior to being installed in my 1.6L.
Dave's also looking for a 11mm fuel injection pump plunger for me.
from a stock 9mm plunger size:
* 10mm: would give a 23% increase in pump displacement
* 11mm: would give a 49% increase in pump displacement 
A vendor at vwdiesel.net has a prototype VW IDI nozzle that has a 2mm opening vs. GTD's 1mm. That seems like a lot of fuel flow!!







I already got 100% extra fueling from the fuel pump alone, with stock 9mm plunger and still using stock injectors. 
I have a higher lift camplate from the 1.9TD.
I also have a 12mm plunger but I am concerned about its reliability during high RPM. The highest RPM 12mm pump I've seen in the Bosch info pages is approx 2,200 RPM. So 10mm or 11mm is more suitable for my application. 
It doesn't look like fueling will be an issue for my ultimate goal. Heck, seeing as other 1.6TDs have already done 15 or 16s (and myself being at least as quick as a 15 second VR6) it isn't far fetched now. 

_Quote »_how on earth your gonna keep the engine together.

Stock rods are good for around 290wtq. So with the peak torque at above 4,000 RPM 200whp isn't far-fetched. If rods are an issue, I already have custom rods in mind. I have 12mm Raceware headstuds as well, and Raceware con rod bolt + nut kit. I would like upgraded mains though.
I think the importance of power curves between different engines (e.g. a TDI and IDI) that has a different impact on max. torque and max. hp is way over your head. You also don't seem to understand the effect of different strokes. 

_Quote »_I think your misunderstanding me, I'm not trying to prove to you it cannot be done

Well it started with you disbelieving a 15 or 16 second 1/4 mile time, which showed how little you know about a 1.6TD's potential in the first place. That's pretty already covered to an extent. You wanted to see my own dyno or timeslips, so we will have to wait.

_Quote »_I'm trying to get you to prove to me that it can http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

While we're waiting; since Shawn has already done it, call him! Why don't you find out how he did it?







BTW it is NOT 230whp, he has a MK1 Rabbit shell that is lighter, hence the 13.5. If the same motor was in a MK3 like mine 15s won't be impossible. His motor was not practical because he broke the pump housing many times.. the 12mm can't stand higher RPM, so I guess he gave up shortly afterwards. IIRC the pump builder he went to, NW Fuel Injection, didn't have the pump modding capabilities like Superior Fuel Injection does now.


_Modified by Malone at 10:17 AM 1-31-2006_


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

Here's a 1.6TD dyno








1985 Audi 80 CC 1.6
http://www.kotinet.com/matti.f...g.jpg
286 Nm = 210 lb-ft
AND a 15 sec timeslip:
http://www.kotinet.com/matti.f...g.jpg
His torque peaks at 3,500 RPM, quite characteristic of the 1.6. Mine peaks at 4,000 RPM though, possibly due to better flow in the head. It will peak higher with upgraded cam, exhaust ports ported, and resolved fueling during high RPM/boost. It's intended to be a high HP monster!!


_Modified by Malone at 2:32 PM 1-30-2006_


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malone* »_Here's a 1.6TD dyno








AND a 15 sec timeslip:
His torque peaks at 3,500 RPM, quite characteristic of the 1.6. Mine peaks at 4,000 RPM though, at least, intended to be a high HP monster!!








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Malone)*

First of all, a 1.8T swapped rabbit(shell), with the 180whp will run a 14.5, please explain how 20 whp will knock a whole second off the quarter?? 
Why would I call this guy Shawn when one he probably has no proof that he ran a 13.5, and 2 his reputation for overstating #'s preceeds him.
You keep preaching about how I know nothing about IDI performance, yet you have absolutely nothing but a theory to offer me for proof.Your car is this bonefied VR6 killer, have you ever stopped to wonder whether the guy with the VR6, know's how to drive???
http://www.centralaudivw.com Simon used to run the same motor (1Z) that I have in my MK3, he has a Video that clearly shows his MK2 is a 12sec car.There are no theory's, he has facts, hardcore proof. He only put 235 down to the wheels, yet his car is in the 12's, hmmm seems like all that "terk" isn't such a bad thing to have afterall. 
Oh and BTW you've offered no information as to how the fuel will burn properly @7000rpm.
Before you start taking pokes at peoples intellegence, you might wanna be able prove your own...........


_Modified by VeeeDubb at 10:03 PM 1-30-2006_


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_Oh and BTW you've offered no information as to how the fuel will burn properly @7000rpm.

I didn't know if you asked that question earlier. Burn properly at 7,000RPM? It already can. For starters, here's my mostly stock 1.6TD with RPM governor removed: 








The tach is totally pegged - according to another RPM gauge the RPM was 6,200 while the picture was taken. I have revved to 6,500 RPM and still burned fuel although there was barely any power because of the stock turbo, lack of sufficient timing advance, etc. etc. BUT, the car was still pulling, otherwise the revs wouldn't have been able to climb with the car in gear.
According to the paper in the link I posted earlier, the IDI combusts fuel better during high RPM than the TDI. Just need lots of timing advance and lots of airflow!! 
When you questioned whether or not the fuel would burn properly, you fall into the myth where people think diesels can't rev high because fuel burns too slowly. I've heard of that before.
What if my HP is not good at 7,000 RPM? Not a problem, because I'm willing to accept a 6,000 to 6,500 RPM shiftpoint. A professionaly built & tested pump with max. 7,000 RPM ensures long-term reliability slightly below that RPM. Gives me peace of mind.

_Quote »_his MK2 is a 12sec car. He only put 235 down to the wheels


_Quote »_a 1.8T swapped rabbit(shell), with the 180whp will run a 14.5, please explain how 20 whp will knock a whole second off the quarter??

Where did I say that I'm going to get into 13's with 200whp? And if a 235whp MK2 can do 12 secs, how did you figure a lighter 13.5 sec Rabbit needed 230whp? Your guesses are a bit off. There are many other factors that affect 1/4 mile times. 
I've talked to Simon, the owner of that 1Z, years ago. Of course, he has videos, timeslips, etc. He has had his car for a long time! My 1.6TD is new at under 10,000km (~6,200 miles) and I am waiting for the track to open. Give me a break.
Simon now has moved on to a 2.0L 16v TDI with a Holset HX35 turbo and a 300whp+ goal. Passenger Peformance here in Canada is importing two 2.0L 16v TDI engines from Europe soon. One of them is going into his MK1 Caddy. He's going to destroke it to ~1.8L to improve revs and max. HP







a shorter stroke _does_ make a difference. The PD injectors however float at around 5,000 RPM from what I've gathered so I'm going to look into custom injector springs (similar concept to stiffer valve springs) to sustain higher RPM. 
You initially said 15 and 16 secs are B.S. for 1.6TDs. I posted a dyno and timeslip that says the contrary, and I think that's enough for now. I'll post juicy updates with my 1.6TD eventually.


_Modified by Malone at 3:35 PM 1-30-2006_


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## Jack Bombay (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_ 
What exactly are you trying to get at, with rev better ???? 

Do you understand the relationship between stroke length and the RPM at which peak torque and HP occur?


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## QuickTD (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Jack Bombay)*

Anybody care to host a video? I have a 13.9 second 1.9TD skoda pickup video and a 15 second golf 1.9TD video, if anybody cares to look.
Another important point about IDI engines is that they have a much, much softer pressure rise in the combustion chamber and lower peak cylinder pressure for a given brake mean effective pressure. They can therefore tolerate far higher levels of fueling and boost than a TDI without failure of the pistons, rods or lower end. They also have superior turbulence and better air utilization rates. They tend to make more power on less boost than a TDI, this is also the reason they can rev far higher and continue to make good torque at high rpm. The TDI wins hands down in efficiency but the IDI might make a better all out performer.


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_First of all, a 1.8T swapped rabbit(shell), with the 180whp will run a 14.5


who the hell was driving that thing?????
my mk2 vr6 ran *faster *with the *same* power and weighs a good 300lbs _*more*_ than that rabbit??? 
jeez what was the 60ft?? like 3 secs......








back to the argument......


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## Jack Bombay (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (QuickTD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *QuickTD* »_Anybody care to host a video? I have a 13.9 second 1.9TD skoda pickup video and a 15 second golf 1.9TD video, if anybody cares to look.

http://www.putfile.com will host up to 10 MB videos for free.


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## QuickTD (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Jack Bombay)*

Okay, here they are. Both vehicles are owned by a fellow from Sweden.
Skoda pickup 1.9TD:
Click here to watch skoda-diesel-pickup-14-mile
The mods to this truck are head porting, schwitzer S1BG turbo @ 26psi, custom 11mm pump (governor and timing mods), mercedes nozzles in stock 1.9TD two spring injector bodies, TDI rods (lighter). Thickest stock head gasket is used so compression is slightly lower than stock. No doubt the truck is light, that helps.
And here's the golf:
Click here to watch Golf-19TD
Not quite as fast but, as I understand it, the golf is his daughters daily driver, full interior. Mods similar to the skoda but in a milder overall state of tune. It ran a 14.62 later in the year. 
Edit - Not from finland, but Sweden. Finns are still crazy though.










_Modified by QuickTD at 3:31 PM 1-31-2006_


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (Jack Bombay)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jack Bombay* »_ Do you understand the relationship between stroke length and the RPM at which peak torque and HP occur? 

Yes I understand but that wasn't my point, My point was the 1.9 could spin up to 7000rpm without blowing up.
If you look at both Quick TD's examples, they are both 1.9's, I believe earlier in this thread I talked about a certain Brazillian 1.9TD I saw run a 13 sec pass, I never said there was no potential in the 1.9 IDI's.
Malone: As far as reasoning why Simon ran a 12 with only 235whp, is because he had 400lbs of tq, and your time slip you provided for that Audi could have come from anywhere, I could take my friends 11 sec time slip from his 1.8T, post it up here and say look, I have the first 11 sec TDI ever. The videos Quick has provide a wee bit more proof of origin.
MK2VR6 guy: Ok a MK2VR with an LSD and Cam will run between 13.9-14.2, . Every MK2 VR I've seen run with an open diff only snagged a 14.8-14.9 and yes the 60 foot was horrible.BTW how much heavier do you think a Rabbit is to a 2door MK2golf???

Malone: As for the fuel burning properly @7000rpm. I never said it wouldn't burn, i said it wouldn't burn properly. Given the Flash point of pump diesel, and the hypithetical fuel flow rate @7000rpm to get 200whp, I'm not %100 percent on this, but I believe the fuel might actually start to quench the combustion without introducing an accelerant.Again I can't prove it, so in the meantime its only a theory.
Now you mentioned earlier that you car was running a GT20, and that at idle you were making 1.5psi of boost.................hmmmmmmm............If you do the math, and calculate the flow going past the turbine @1000 rpm from a 1.6L displacement motor it just doesn't add up??? Care to elaborate how this is possible???


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (QuickTD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *QuickTD* »_Okay, here they are. Both vehicles are owned by a fellow from Finland,(those crazy finns again!).
Skoda pickup 1.9TD:
Click here to watch skoda-diesel-pickup-14-mile
The mods to this truck are head porting, schwitzer S1BG turbo @ 26psi, custom 11mm pump (governor and timing mods), mercedes nozzles in stock 1.9TD two spring injector bodies, TDI rods (lighter). Thickest stock head gasket is used so compression is slightly lower than stock. No doubt the truck is light, that helps.
And here's the golf:
Click here to watch Golf-19TD
Not quite as fast but, as I understand it, the golf is his daughters daily driver, full interior. Mods similar to the skoda but in a milder overall state of tune. It ran a 14.62 later in the year. 


Keep in mind their diesel fuel is much different than ours, sorta like the difference of running a 1.8T on 89 octane vs 110, Still very impressive times forsure http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RobVandal (Mar 22, 2005)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (VeeeDubb)*

(back to topic lol)I was just wondering if Giles rebuild+mods your pump when you send it to them?
and what is their price to do so?B/c i just got a lot of money back from my taxes this year and i am looking to send them a pump that needs to be rebuilt and modded if they do both for the same price of just moding it (back to arguement)

















_Modified by RobVandal at 11:07 PM 1-31-2006_


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (RobVandal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RobVandal* »_(back to topic lol)I was just wondering if Giles rebuild+mods your pump when you send it to them?
and what is their price to do so?


i talked to him beforehand and he rebuilt a pump that he already had, charged me a core charge, then once i replaced my pump i sent it to him.....
$650 for the rebuild, $250 core charge.....+ shipping and other crap
come to think of it i need to call him to see if he has got my pump yet!!
*if you are sending your pump from the US send it through the US postal service, no duties to pay*
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*

just another random update.....
i normally dont drive this car too hard, just cruise it around, but tonight on my way home i decided to play a lil bit [







was invloved,] anyways.... just from a roll in 2nd i decided to let er rip and i pulled the gears past the stock "shift points" as indicated by the lil roman symbols on the speedo ( i dont have a tach, just a stock shift light that doesnt work)
surprisingly it felt like it was pulling pretty good. i think just for fun im gonna make a trip to the drag strip and see if i can mess with some people during bracket racing. itll be nice to be the first one leaving the tree rather than waiting a few seconds to try and catch up to a slower car.








anything under 20 seconds and ill be








BTW does anyone know how to get my stock upshift light working again??


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Giles' "Performance" Injection Pump Review (2manvr6)*

did a lot of freeway driving on this last tank, mostly doing 85+mph, not sure exactly how fast, but when the needle stops moving at 85 it will still accelerate, anyways i still got ~37mpg, loving this car more and more everyday http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Burnitwithfire (May 14, 2005)

37 is pretty good. How old are your injectors?
I'm currently discussing via e-mail with him about a TD pump I want him to mod. As soon as I have enough cash I'm shipping him the pump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (Black Smokin' Diesel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Black Smokin’ Diesel* »_37 is pretty good. How old are your injectors?


i have no idea, only things ive done in the ~6 months ive owned my jetta is new glow plugs, GP relay, air, fuel & oil filter changes, the Giles pump and some suspension work, lovin it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Sharp Shooter (Jan 28, 2002)

*Re: (2manvr6)*

where can i get a hold of this guy, my pump is starting to leak


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## Malone (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: (Sharp Shooter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sharp Shooter* »_where can i get a hold of this guy, my pump is starting to leak

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3100


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (Malone)*

nice to see your work, and between you and me VeeDubb never sent me any pics of his turbo in his TDI


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## TexasVWdriver (Nov 29, 2000)

*Re: (Sharp Shooter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sharp Shooter* »_where can i get a hold of this guy, my pump is starting to leak


Giles 
Superior Fuel Injection & Turbos Ltd. 
300 Steelcase Road West - Unit 27 
Markham, ON. 
L3R 2W2
Canada

905-475-1122 
email: [email protected]
http://www.dalsturbo.com
1.6L TD super pump $950 CA ( $832 US )
1.9L TD super pump $950 CA ( $832 US ) 
1.6L NA super pump $750 CA ( $657 US )


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## giulianot (Oct 10, 2007)

*Re: (TexasVWdriver)*

New address for giles' new shop
PERFORMANCE DIESEL INJECTION LTD,.
187 STEELCASE ROAD WEST UNIT 16,
MARKHAM, ON.,
L3R 2R9
905-940-2266 
he built an amazing pump for my 1.9aaz project . Its ready to fuel enrich up to 30 psi and 5.5k revability. Great guy who make great pumps. He also does tdi mechanical pumps adn injector pop testing and cleaning


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## burn_your_money (Oct 4, 2004)

*Re: (TexasVWdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TexasVWdriver* »_ 
Superior Fuel Injection & Turbos Ltd. 
300 Steelcase Road West - Unit 27 
Markham, ON. 
L3R 2W2
Canada

905-475-1122 
email: [email protected]


Giles no longer works at Superior. He opened his own shop and the address that giulianot posted is correct
His email is [email protected]


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## rudygetz (Aug 22, 2006)

following this!


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## Lowenough (Dec 6, 2010)

I got a 1.6td superpump, had him build it for 15psi on a stock turbo. I told them I might go a little more so he over fueled it a bit. This car is an animal. I put the injection pump on and didn't turn the boost up for a day or two. The car felt alot faster, then I turned the boost up to 20lbs and got a fmic. I can beat my friend with a mk2 gti 16v with cams and some small work. My car has, short shift kit, 3in dp to 2.5 no muffler or anything, fmic, k14, 20lbs of boost. Very happy with giles.


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## mkIIBEATERheater (Dec 2, 2006)

bring this post back need moar coal!!!


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