# Anyone Towing—Please Read



## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Hello all,
After 2 months of back and forth with VWOA, and my VW dealership regarding questions about towing setup, and safety concerns I finally had a very distressing message from VW. I was told that basically VW has no clear idea about how to tow my Airstream (the exact model pictured in the Touareg brochure) safely. They admitted to me that they have pulled all of the print and TV ads showing the Touareg and the Airstream because of "Hitch Weight" issues. They refused to give me assurance that my trailer could and should be towed by the Touareg and had absolutely no technical information on hand to help. The bottom line is that apparently VW did not do their research, nor were they honest in the marketing of this vehicle. I made it clear that I specifically purchased the Touareg because of it's towing ability and that I would not put my family's life as well as other drivers on the road at risk unless they were willing to guaranty the truck do what they claim it can.
I have told them that if they cannot deliver this guaranty that the car will be returned and I expect a full refund. 
I think other people should be aware of this very serious issue for their own safety as well as everyone else's.
Thanks,
Bluvalley


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (bluvalley)*

Got me scared. What "Hitch Weight" issue? 
My hitch gets installed Friday, and I bought the Touareg because of the towing capacity too. I was told Tung weight was approx 700lbs (10% of the max tow weight). Is this not true?
I need at least 550lbs tung weight, to haul a motorcycle on a Mototote.


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## gnosys (Aug 1, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (bluvalley)*

This is terrible news, and represents the first real black mark against the Touareg.


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## Phagus (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (JoCaputo)*

There was a thread called "Will it tow" discussing the towing capacity of the T-reg.
The max tung weight is 660 lbs, if I remember correctly, which means the T-reg can tow only 6600 lbs trailer (at least according to US safety "standards").
Here goes another LET IT SLIDE attitude of the world-known company towards its customers. Check out the flashlight, sunshades, powerhatch and glitch threads. Just let it slide. Maybe nobody would notice.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

The tongue weight on my trailer is about 600 lbs. The max tongue weight on the hitch is 616 lbs. But this is not the issue. What they do not make clear is that the supplied ball and arm has a specific measurment requirement which makes it virtually impossible to install a weight distribution system or sway control which according to any RV expert is essential for towing safely.


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## charlier (Mar 9, 2001)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (bluvalley)*

vwguild, any thoughts? Have you come up with any additional towing information from VWoA?


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

In defense of vwguild - he has put a tremendous amount of time in researching this towing issue, but it isn't his responsibility. This must go to VWoA. 
I think it is great that VWoA is addressing the problem by pulling ads. That really addresses the issue. (Let's all snear together.) VW has two mutually exclusive statements in the owners manual: "It will tow 7,700#", and "It has a Class Two Hitch", (limited to 3,500#).
I started the "Will it tow?" thread about six weeks ago. There is some good info in it and another older "towing" thread. Vwguild was very helpful throughout those threads. But I am still not 100% convinced the Touareg will do what VW says it will. (Since they make two diametrically opposed statements.)
My personal case might just slide in under the wire because my loaded trailer is 5,000#, not 7,700#. I have a weight distribution hitch, (draw bar) that can be shortened and re-engineered to about 6". I THINK! I haven't completed the drawings yet. It does fit right in the VW receiver.
Mercedes has set a precedent by buying back a bunch of 2003 models that could not do what they promised. It is my belief that we will see a number of vehicles, (more refined than Ford) that will tow more than 3,500# by mid to late 2004.
Over to you, VW.


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (vracer)*

I read the Will it Tow thread. 
Still unclear. I'm having the VW hitch installed tomorrow. Will it be a Class 2, 3 or 4? If it's not at least a 3, is there another option?
Guess I'll find out tomorrow at the dealers, but would like to go in armed w/ knowledge.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

While I have no intentions of towing with my Touareg and I have generally tried to stay clear of these threads, I think that VW will own ALL Touareg owners something for the vehicle's reduced ability in relationship to its resale value (ie. now you cannot sell it to someone who wants to tow 7700 lbs) if it is proven that the car cannot tow that weight due to the tongue weight restriction. How much that compensation should be is the question. My vote is $1000 immediate cash or a $2000 certificate for a future VW/Audi product.
As for those who bought the vehicle specifically to tow near its maximum weight and cannot, VW needs to buy those cars back if they cannot come up with a solution to this issue real soon.


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## JamesC (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (bluvalley)*

In contrast to spockcat we bought the Touareg specifically to tow. We intentionally bought the smallest vehicle that could tow what we needed. It has done well with light loads but we fully expect VWOA to uphold their end of the equation to the full 7716lb extent. We have a car and trailer to tow and I don't expect to hear of problems after purchase. There was no gray inference or shady advertising involved. We are talking about big black letters in national distribution spelling out the tow capacity. We purchased based on that premise.
James


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## WaitingforaT-REG (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (JamesC)*

I thought I could tow a 6500# boat. Now what to do???


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (WaitingforaT-REG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WaitingforaT-REG* »_I thought I could tow a 6500# boat. Now what to do???

Get a bigger motor for the back of the boat to put less weight on the tongue?


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

VW Corporation either lied or screwed up badly with their 7700 pound towing ads. Now, they need to do the morally and probably legally correct thing, and refund customers who want to return their cars with towing hitches installed. Moral Corporation? HHHHAHAAAAAAA. Hence, get ready for the class action suit. I am ready to do it.


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## 1.8T Grocery Getter (Feb 13, 2002)

*Re: (TouaregV8owner)*

This does kinda suck. I am buying it to tow my boat better than my Dodge Ram (1996 1500 w/ 5.9 V-8). That truck struggles, but my friends grand cherokee did really well, so I was excited....Now I'm kinda scared. 
I wonder if Porsche is running into the same problems. They advertise their Cayenne Turbo towing a triple axle 25+ foot sport boat ( looks like a pretty Magic). Here we go......


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (JamesC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JamesC* »_In contrast to spockcat we bought the Touareg specifically to tow.

Just currious about all of those that pop up like mushrooms here ... how are you going to prove to a court that you bought "specifically to tow"? That might enable me to have VW purchase back my vehicle and I'd have a chance in a year or so to buy the Touareg V10 TDI.








Too bad people are starting so many threads for the exact same issue over and over again ... I guess VW underestimated of how badly standardized the U.S. is! You will see so many VWs, Passats, Jettas, Touaregs towing in Europe, light and heavy trailers, because the trailers have to meet certain specs, e.g. tongue at a certain level, certain max load on a tongue, certain weight requirements per wheel on the trailer, certain brake requirements, double wiring for lights, etc.
Here you find trailers with 4 wires, 7 wires, no wires, the other guy above is talking about creating his own tongue design - yeah right, and then you are planing to sue VW if you get involved in a trailer accident, yeah right!? Helloooooo!!!!







Be a little bit more realistic here.


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_
Get a bigger motor for the back of the boat to put less weight on the tongue?

I start to really like you man!!!






















BTW - I confirmed that the mirror glass we have is self dimming at night, so yes, the convex glass will be around $320 - outchhh!! Make sure you pull your mirrors in when you are driving into narrow situation, otherwise it's getting expensive quick! And yes, I most likely will get the phone install kit... in October (6th) a friend will bring it from Europe.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

I lived in Germany many years, and no way are they towing 7700 pound trailers there. The problem is bad work by VW...it is easy to tell who bought the Touareg to tow with, they have HITCHES put on. Time now for VW to take em back; chances are, most with hitches will keep their Touaregs anyhow. It's gonna cost a lot less to do the right thing now than to face tort awards.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Sorry to post so soon again, but I got a great idea: Let's go to CBS' 60 Minutes with this!


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## oscarb57 (Sep 12, 2003)

*What about a brake controller?*

Notwithstanding all this mess about towing capacity, can anyone confirm whether the Touareg requires an outboard brake controller? My dealer said it's included in the vehicle as part of the in system computer. I don't believe him.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

*Re: What about a brake controller? (oscarb57)*

They say there is a connector for an after-market controller for trailers with electic brakes...behind the panel under the driver's side of the dash. Personally, I sold my trailer because I know I cannot safely tow it with the Touareg and that the battle to return the car will not likely be brief.


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Still curious about the VW hitch class?*

So, does anyone actually have the VW hitch, and tried towing? Or is everyone just complaining from hear-say? 
I'd still like to know the CLASS of the VW hitch. II, III or IV??
I'll know later today when I get to the dealers. If it's a class II, I'll NOT have it installed, and look for alternatives. I'm not looking to haul 7,700 lbs, but I do need a min of 550 lbs tung weight.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Still curious about the VW hitch class? (JoCaputo)*

Tongue weight is 616 lbs from what others have posted.


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: Still curious about the VW hitch class? (spockcat)*

Thanks, I had seen the 616 in other posts. So, I assume it's a class IV? I may have missed it, but haven't seen it posted anywhere. 
Sales guy says when VW was hosting the introduction they were all pulling large trailers, on a track. Don't know what size they were. He said 45', but I doubt that it was that long(maybe).


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: Still curious about the VW hitch class? (JoCaputo)*

It is a Class IV Weight distributing hitch...Have them pull it out of the packing carton...printed and stamped right there on the hitch itself.
Total Tongue capacity is 616#s. The fact that the Touareg is more center weighted for overall max. driving performance, as oppsed to a conventional truck where all of the weight is all the way to front, is the reason for the lighter tongue weight...This is my own belief...not a quote from VW Engineering Staff...But if you could see an "X-ray" look at the Touareg you would what see I mean...Engine and planetary gear sit between and over the front axle and end right behind the "B" pillar...An additional 154#s on the tongue would raise the front of the T-Reg too much...


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: Still curious about the VW hitch class? (vwguild)*

Great, thanks. More than I need.

_Quote »_ The fact that the Touareg is more center weighted for overall max. driving performance, as oppsed to a conventional truck where all of the weight is all the way to front


My main reason for my purchase. For such an competent off-road vehicle the Touareg handles great. And, it meets my towning/hauling needs. I feel for the people that need the 7,700 lbs, and hope VW has a solution for them.


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## JamesC (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (wkaml)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wkaml* »_
Just currious about all of those that pop up like mushrooms here ... how are you going to prove to a court that you bought "specifically to tow"? That might enable me to have VW purchase back my vehicle and I'd have a chance in a year or so to buy the Touareg V10 TDI.








Too bad people are starting so many threads for the exact same issue over and over again ... I guess VW underestimated of how badly standardized the U.S. is! You will see so many VWs, Passats, Jettas, Touaregs towing in Europe, light and heavy trailers, because the trailers have to meet certain specs, e.g. tongue at a certain level, certain max load on a tongue, certain weight requirements per wheel on the trailer, certain brake requirements, double wiring for lights, etc.
Here you find trailers with 4 wires, 7 wires, no wires, the other guy above is talking about creating his own tongue design - yeah right, and then you are planing to sue VW if you get involved in a trailer accident, yeah right!? Helloooooo!!!!







Be a little bit more realistic here.

A little ironic that we usually have you to police our "didn't add anything to this thread" issues








Somehow I was quoted yet have made no mention of lawsuit. An incorrect assumption on your part. Veiled references of inexperience aside (mushrooms?) I've been around vortex for several years ('99?) - my original login and password were three company emails systems ago and long gone. This is one in a long chain of VAG autos for us. I was also born, grew up and returned to work for a bit in Europe so do have some exposure in that department.
I suspect VW will come up with a workable solution but do think it's unfortunate that they can not relay how to safely perform a task they themselves used to advertise the ability of the vehicle. Airstream is not an EU staple. They have directly affected a person's life on our forum and I think their recent admittance warranted a new thread in this case. Significant in my mind.
There would be a difference between you and I were a buyback offered. I would be both legally and morally qualified. I currently have no intention of taking them up on such an offer - though lowering the capacity to something below what we need put's it down with several other vehicles and would force reconsideration.
Given your style of writing (very similar to mine I might add) I suspect you will take this for what it is. Matter of fact rather than criticism or attack.
James


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## WaitingforaT-REG (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_
Get a bigger motor for the back of the boat to put less weight on the tongue?

Boat already has two motors....no more room.


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## pipes (Apr 7, 2000)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (JamesC)*

I remember Mazda offered money or buy back to cars that were advertised with X HP and it actually was less.
VW better do the same, if not fix it.
I feel for you guys/gals that will tow.


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## kbear (Mar 9, 1999)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (bluvalley)*

I have seen the T-reg tow 7300#. VW had it towing a 2000# trailer with a 5300# steam roller on it! It distributes the weight through the uni-body chassis. And only use the VW supplied hitch as this replaces the existing bumper. VW has not lied about how much it will tow!


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

My Touareg has been in the shop all morning. Spent an hour with the Service manager as well as a technician explaining the situation at great length. The technician has a trailer himself so he knows about towing issues. Basically the service manager has assured me that with the weight distributing hitch I "should" be fine. VW will not give any assurance to that affect. They adamantly say that any product other than theirs they willl not be liable for. Of course since the product they supply (the arm and ball) will not work with my Airstream than I am stuck. The Service manager says to use the WD system because "who will know?"
To answer someone's previous post. Yes, I have hooked up my 5000 lb. Airstream to the Touareg and towed it for about 15 miles or so. I have to say nothing happened and everything worked fine. I have yet to go on longer trip, and in no way am I doing this to trade in the car and get a V10 Diesel!!!!. That's a really screwed up way of thinking. Kind of the way Volkswagens' handling of this problem has been so far. Screwed Up.
Believe me when I say that the first injury that occurs as a result of VW's negligence will be a serious wake-up call.
James


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (kbear)*

The issue here is not the actual pulling capacity. The issue is that the maximum tongue weight is restricted to 616 lbs. From what I have read here, in the US, trailers usually have 10% to 15% of their total weight on the tongue. Apparently, this is much different than in Europe. Since you are never going to change the US trailers, VW will either have to re-rate their hitch (if this is possible engineering-wise), make a new hitch with a suitable tongue rating, or de-rate the Touareg's capacity to match the usual tongue/capacity rating.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (bluvalley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluvalley* »_in no way am I doing this to trade in the car and get a V10 Diesel!!!!.
James

And a V10 TDI won't solve the issue anyway. The issue seems to rest with the tongue rating put on the hitch.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Kbear,
I too have seen this video of the Touareg towing the steam roller. I plan on using the VW hitch which I am not worried about. It is the supplied arm/ball that is the problem, and it's restrictions.


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

AND STILL NO WORD FROM VW.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

nope.


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## TURBO PAUL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

Sorry, maybe I just don't get it, but how has VW lied? They said it tows 7700 lbs., and have shown it towing 7700 lbs. They said limit of 615 lbs tung weight, and their hitch is rated for it. I was told that you change the ball size if your trailer needs this, like any other hitch. If your trailer is rated at a heavier tung weight and you can't ajust your load, how is this VW's problem. They say to take your loaded trailer to a truck scale and put the trailer jack on the scale to measure real tung load. If your trailer has a igh tung load and you bought the truck without confirming your facts, shame on you, not VW.


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (JamesC, TouaregV8owner, spockcat, JoCaputo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JamesC* »_A little ironic that we usually have you to police our "didn't add anything to this thread" issues









I know - I should rather have said that we need a forum moderator for the Touareg posts that makes threads that contain real good and valuable information 'sticky'. By starting new threads over and over again we push others towards the back and even the search feature doesn't find it all. If you read all the posts, you will see of how many answers 'spockcat' finds and references in already existing threads.


_Quote, originally posted by *JamesC* »_Somehow I was quoted yet have made no mention of lawsuit. An incorrect assumption on your part.

No, I know it wasn't you. It was somebody else - it just takes a lot of time to answer all of the questions like I am doing right now and respond to everybody individually.

_Quote, originally posted by *TouaregV8owner* »_VW Corporation either lied or screwed up badly with their 7700 pound towing ads. Now, they need to do the morally and probably legally correct thing, and refund customers who want to return their cars with towing hitches installed. Moral Corporation? HHHHAHAAAAAAA. Hence, get ready for the class action suit. I am ready to do it.

Did the add specifically quote a 7700lbs towing capacity?

_Quote, originally posted by *JamesC* »_There would be a difference between you and I were a buyback offered. I would be both legally and morally qualified.
 Sure, prove that you are legally qualified, I would like to see that. Are you going to take their commercial as a proof, or what's your approach going to be?









_Quote, originally posted by *JamesC* »_There was no gray inference or shady advertising involved. We are talking about big black letters in national distribution spelling out the tow capacity. We purchased based on that premise.
James

I'm not sure if a judge would say - you bought what's specified in the technical manual and you purchased as is. We can argue forever. We will not know until somebody opens a case for jury trial.
Just because somebody is posting a commercial "It climbs like a rock (Shevy Tahoe)" and shows a car climbing up a rock, which I wouldn't even attempt to hike, I don't go out and buy it. I think it is quiet foolish to buy a car because of a commercial seen. If you are serious, you would check manuals, etc. first. Commercials are made my marketing people, and marketing people are liars all together. We all know that, don't we.









_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_Apparently, this is much different than in Europe. Since you are never going to change the US trailers, VW will either have to re-rate their hitch (if this is possible engineering-wise), make a new hitch with a suitable tongue rating, or de-rate the Touareg's capacity to match the usual tongue/capacity rating.

Why would VW have to "re-rate their hitch"? 
a) It is not VW's hitch - Westfalia makes it...
b) A manufacturer can rate a hitch for whatever they design it to, specify, and test
c) The towing capacity is rated in the technical data section of the driver's manual that is coming with the car.
d) The tongue weight is not so much limited by the hitch itself, but the car. While other heavy duty trucks e.g. Ford 350 Super Duty have most of their weight balanced in the front, the Touareg's CG is almost in the center of the car which limits the tongue weight.
Another very important issue is, that the tongue weight will be added to the vehicles total weight. 
A few math examples here:
vehicle empty weight: 5300lb
tongue weight due to trailer: 600lb
driver + 1 passanger: 400lb
trunk weight: 150lb
total: 6450lb
max gross weight is: 6493 - *you barely made the limits.*
Then:
vehicle rear weight empty: 2460lb
2 rear passangers: 400lb
trunk weight: 150lb
tongue weight due to trailer: 600lb
total: 3610lb
max rear axle load is: 3549 - *you are 60lb over load!.*
Consider that when towing. *YOU* and *solely you* are responsible for towing limitations. 
Don't think that you can load up 4 people, put a ton of luggage in the trunk and put 600lb on the tow hitch frame. The rear axle's max load is 3549lbs, max vehicle gross weight is 6493lbs.
I admit that while the maximum permissible trailer weights were not available at time of printing the manual, VW should have published them by now.
I just called VWoA and got 7716lbs as the max trailer weight *with brakes*. I expect the max trailer weight without brakes to be similar as in Europe, which is close to the max gross weight of the car, given the limitation, that the car's weight is higher than the trailer's weight and that the vehicles total weight plus tongue weight does not exceed the vehicles gross weight.
*BUT*VW has specifically spelled out, that *ONLY* class 1 or class 2 tralers are allowed to be towed with the car, even though it might be able to handle a class 3 - that's your call.

_Quote, originally posted by *JoCaputo* »_
Still unclear. I'm having the VW hitch installed tomorrow. Will it be a Class 2, 3 or 4? If it's not at least a 3, is there another option?



_Quote, originally posted by *MANUAL* »_
Booklet 3.4.12:
*Operation instructions*
*Maximum trailer weight* 
You can only tow typical class 1 or class 2 trailers with your vehicle. The maximum gross trailer weight and the tongue load must never exceed the specifications listed in => booklet 3.5 "Technical Data"


Any more questions?
I am highly interested in the tow hitch myself and want it installed - it was only part of the reason, why I bought the Touareg though. And I have done my homework and investigated. 








My service guy said that this is the strongies towing hitch he ever saw. The metal frame seems to be almost 1/3 thicker than what he has seen so far.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Anyone else interested in taking this to the media, like 60 Minutes, 'cause obviously VW is stonewalling.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Yes, VW said in their ads, 7700 pounds. Yes, they showed it towing an Airstream, a piece of construction gear, and a huge boat. Yes, the VW manual's limit to a Class 2 trailer contradicts its advertising. Yes, advertising can mislead a customer and when it does can cost a corporation plenty in a court. No, it is not possible to safely tow 7700 pounds with a Touareg because of the HITCH limits, a hitch that VW installed. No, VW has not distributed an addendum to its manual on this matter. Yes, let's hope that nobody is going to get hurt or killed towing 7700 pounds with a 616 pound tongue weight. Let's hope VW does the right thing and offers to take back those Touaregs that were bought based on the 7700 pound/Airstream ads.


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

I was told by VWA customer care, etc. yesterday that if I used my aftermarket ball/arm with weight-distributing/sway attachments instead of the VW supplied ball/arm it would NOT effect my warranty.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

Maybe you should ask them to fax that to you in writing.


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## bt-treg (Jul 16, 2003)

Not really sure what warrantee issues there are other that damaging the hitch. I have added aftermarket hitches to car and vans for 30 years without any issues.
IMHO after using the hitch with my trailer and seeing one being installed, the only concern I would have is if the hitch ball is say 12" from the pin (verses the 6.15" listed on hitch) and you load the tongue at maximum load: 600 pound, you could have an issue where hitting a bad bump or whatever may put extra torque on the hitch that could twist the hitch and frame. 
If this happens, to me this is the owners problem not the car or hitch manufacturers problem.
_Modified by bt-treg at 11:32 AM 9-13-2003_


_Modified by bt-treg at 11:33 AM 9-13-2003_


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## Murray249 (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (****us)*

both 616# and 7700# are limits. You can go all the way up to each of them safely so as not to exceed any of them.
ie. you could tow a 7500#boat/trailer combo that has 500# tongue weight
or you could tow a 3500# trailer that due to design has a 616# tongue weight.
This is why VW rated these things separately


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## Murray249 (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (WaitingforaT-REG)*

if the boat and trailer together weigh 6500# you are in the clear. Check out trailer boats magazine towing guide. Boats, unlike may other trailer designs only end up with ~7-8% tongue weight. Whatever the numbers say, I have a 21 foot cuddy that weigh 3900# dry, plus a 1000# dual axle trailer plus all my crap in it and I can still lift the tongue by myself.


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## Murray249 (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (TouaregV8owner)*

Wow are you mad...I would be too if I bought a car that was rated to not tow what I wanted it to. You cannot blame this on VW, you knew what the tongue weight requirements are for your trailer ~840#. This is a class V hitch requirement. Depending on the color I'll buy it off you...cheap


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## Murray249 (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (spockcat)*

Not boat trailers 6-8 %


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

I just took my Airstream out for it's 2nd trial run before my long weekend on the Cape. The car spent the day yesterday in the shop with the service guys doing a dance to try and help with my tongue weight issues. I left there with their word that if I use my aftermarket arm/ball, weight distribution, sway control I will be fine. Of course they would give me nothing in writing. All of my numbers are within limits. 4200lb. dry weight, 600 lbs tongue. After looking at the VW supplied arm /ball it's impossible to use this with my trailer. So I just came back after a 50 mile run. Small, dirt roads to the New York State Throughway. Everything was fine. As for "donaldvanw's " post about VW customer care stating that using an aftermarket system will not void the warranty, I hope they are right. I am going to check with them again before next weekend. Oh, the "check brake lights" glitch does have a software fix and the dealer has promised to fix that for me this week.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (Murray249)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Murray249* »_both 616# and 7700# are limits. You can go all the way up to each of them safely so as not to exceed any of them.
This is why VW rated these things separately

True but I think the issue here is that VW doesn't tell you that until you actually purchase the hitch. I have not seen any reference to the tongue limit in any VW print literature. But the sales literature sure does mention the 7700 lb weight limit. No doubt that even if many early purchasers had asked the sales people about the tongue limit, they wouldn't have known. 
I do believe that people who do a lot of trailer pulling or who bought the vehicle to specifically pull a trailer should have asked about the tongue weight rating BUT seeing the Airstream ad gave them a false sense of security. Of course, the question is which Airstream was featured in the ad. If it was the 22CCD, it is pretty much within VW's tongue rating of 616 lbs as the 22CCD has a 620 lb hitch. It looks bigger than that to me though.


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: (Murray249)*

It looks like that the "Peppers" have the exact same issues. If you are interested in finding some answers at a Cayenne forum, you might want to look there, since the Cayenne and the Touareg have a very high percentage of same parts and setup.
I hope that the link works for you folks since I have a separate user id with them:
http://www.rennteam.com/showfl...art=1


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (wkaml)*

There really seems to be less of a fuss on any of the Porsche forums about the towing tongue weight issue with the Cayenne. Could this be because Cayenne owners don't tow as much, or do they mainly tow smaller, lighter things, or do they just tow boats which apparently have a different tongue weight to total weight ratio?
Also, I haven't seen any complaints about trailer warning lights on the Cayenne forums. I can't believe that Porsche doesn't use the same electrical system as VW. Maybe they don't have the warning system?


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (spockcat)*

My only comment here concerns the Tow/Tongue capacities and Dealer info.
I certainly cannot imagine Anyone buying this vehicle...where towing is an integral part of it's use...not to pursue this issue right to the wall...my customers have, and I have learned in the process.
The hitch is NOT a VW Product; it is a Westphalia product and comes to the Dealership in a Box with installation and operating instructions. It must be removed from the box BEFORE installation, and once removed from the box all pertinant information is readily available concerning restrictions and guidelines.
I should also point out that a few years ago Dodge started to publish a 'Truck Survey'. I am sure you will all be shocked to learn that there are folks out there that actually load 2500#s of bricks in a Ram 1500








Well, things were getting so out of hand with warranty claims that the survey was born...The result: Customer was required to fill out and complete the survey stating intent of use...if this survey was completed, it then went into the Deal Jacket...Rediculous Warranty claims if related to misuse required one 
item...That Survey...if completed and signed by customer and damage only possible by misuse...No Warranty claim paid...And two...if there was no Survey at all...then it was on the Dealer that had dropped the ball.
Point here...How long has Dodge been making Trucks? It took them that long to realize that some folks just won't follow instructions...


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

The information on the box/instructions are available only to the technician. The VW ads are the only thing a customer sees until it is a done deal, and those ads are perfectly clear, and misleading. One cannot safely tow 7700 pounds with a Touareg, and one only finds that out after it is tooooo late. VW is stonewalling.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (vwguild)*

vwguild,
I don't really buy passing the buck to Westphalia. I'll bet the hitch itself could carry twice the weight on the tongue. I think that it is VW that has specified the tongue rating and hitch arm length based on the vehicle's design. In fact, I'll bet VW and Westphalia designed the hitch in cooperation.
It is interesting that you admit to having learned a lot by having smart customers push you find all the specs before they made their purchase. Apparently, VW didn't bother to teach enough about towing in their AZ seminars. Nor did they bother to publish the complete specs on page 56 of brochure VW04TRGSBUS where they did publish the big 7716 weight limit.
Speaking of Dodge, their website has a nice feature where you can find your vehicle's towing rating, or find what Dodge vehicle will be suitable for towing your trailer. On this site they make this statement: 
_While it's not listed in the charts, tongue weight is also an important consideration. The recommended tongue weight is between 10 & 15% of the trailer weight. However, the maximum tongue weight on Class III (The bumper ball) is limited to 500 lbs, and Class IV (The receiver hitch) to 1200 lbs.This requirement overrides any recommended GTW rating, between 10% and 15% of gross trailer weight (GTW). Additionally, the GAWRs and GVWRs should never be exceeded. _
To my eye, the Westphalia hitch looks like a class IV receiver hitch, but it is rated like a bumper hitch.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (TouaregV8owner)*

Technically, you can tow 7716 lbs as long as the tongue isn't over 615 lbs. Another member has posted that boat trailers normally fit this spec. Where VW went wrong is by showing the Touareg towing an Airstream trailer which seems to have a tongue weight over the 615 lb rating, they didn't publish the 615 lb rating in their literature, and it seems they didn't teach their dealers about towing either.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (TouaregV8owner)*

"The information on the box/instructions are available only to the technician" is a crock of ****...You should have pursued this if it was so important...You are not going to tell me, and and everyone else here, that you take & believe ALL Advertising at Face Value are you??? 

_Modified by vwguild at 8:09 PM 9-13-2003_


_Modified by vwguild at 7:29 AM 9-14-2003_


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (bt-treg)*

bt-treg
The warranty issue is that there have been posts on this forum indicating that VWA would not honor the warranty on the Touareg if owners used other than the ball/arm supplied with the hitch package. With all the issues regarding whether Touareg can pull 7700lb, how much tongue weight it can handle, the class rating of the ball/arm, etc. it seemed prudent to try to check it out. Warranty to me means the warranty on the whole car (e.g. transmission, suspension, engine, etc.) not just the hitch.
I also have had and have now aftermarket hitch assemblies on american trucks/suv's and this has never been issue. However, these are vehicles with proven histories of towing- the same can't be said for VW.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (spockcat)*

I didn't intend to pass the buck at all...sorry if you read it that way...And I totally agree with you that this accessory was designed and built in concert between the two companies...That, to me is a given...And...I do believe it will do all that it is supposed to do...You just have to follow the instructions...and they are all there...Will it it work with your existing rig? Only if it complies with the instructions...
The "Go There" Experience in Phoenix was a very compressed 36 hour event...
And most certainly was not focused on this one aspect of the Touareg...
I would expect nothing less from the Dodge site...I am sure Ford, Chevy, and GMC offer up the same thing...I have said it here before...these perameters have been in place for decades because, heretofore, you could not do any really serious towing with anything other than an American TRUCK.
http://www.draw-tite.com
Go there...Great site, lots of info, and I bet you will find a rig that will work for the Touareg...Plus...Class IV is really anything that will pull 5000#+...



_Modified by vwguild at 7:30 AM 9-14-2003_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Anyone Towing—Please Read (vwguild)*

Draw-tite says:
CLASS IV
2004 Volkswagen
I'm sorry, our database does not have information for a Volkswagen made in 2004. Please check that you have entered a valid year for that make. 
Same for class II and III.
No Porsche Cayenne either.
Also, Class IV is 500 to 1200 lb tongue weight.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

VW Guild,
Why are you being so adamant about this? I was never shown this hitch before I bought the car. And my salesman new NOTHING about towing. VW sent over a fax to the dealer at the time of closing showing me max towing weight and hitch weight with and without weight distribution. All of the numbers were within my trailers limits. I did not sign the final papers until I saw this. The hitch was then placed on order (as a dealer installed accessory to recieve full warranty) and I came back a couple of weeks later to have it installed. It was then that I noticed the sticker on the hitch that says " approved ball position" with a warning that to deviate from this could cause a loss of control.
What you don't seem too undertand is that this arm/ball does not work with every trailer on the market, especially my Airstream. The distance from pin to ball is too short and the rise is too low. Open up any manual on towing and you will see that entire rig MUST be level. Are you saying that anyone who buys the Touareg for towing must only use a trailer with the Westphalia arm/ball specs? because if that is the case than a huge number of trailers would be eliminated. Most notably ANY Airstream.
I simply want in writing from VWOA something that says I can use my aftermarket ball/arm and not void the warranty. Why is this so difficult. . .


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

VW guild is irrationally defensive of VW. VW goofed, plain and simple. There is NO other truck that claims 7700 or more pounds towing capacity that in turn limits tongue weight like the Touareg, or that so limits ball-to-pin and rise. Once again, it is impossible to safely tow 7700 pounds with a Touareg.


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

The problem isn't bad marketing by VW or incorrect publishing of specified towing capacities either. The problem is that Touareg owners seem to have taken an advertisement as literal information, when in fact it was meant to illustrate a point. Think about the reverse of the Airstream ad. Would a New Beetle with that trailer attached literally have both front wheels off the ground like that? I highly doubt it! But, it most definitely cannot tow that trailer! VW didn't lie, as long as the tongue weight of the trailer doesn't exceed 614lbs., then the trailer's maximum weight can be 7700lbs. That's also figuring in that you're not exceeding the maximum rear axle loads, etc. For anyone seriously into towing, you would know that a stated towing capacity is a very vague number, as indicated by the quote posted from Dodge's website. I think you'd be crazy to try and tow 7700lbs. with the VR6 Touareg, even if the tongue weights, etc. weren't exceeded!! But you can do it if you really want to. The point is, just because you can't strap a 7700lbs. trailer onto the back of the Touareg without any other considerations, does in no way mean that VW misrepresented the Touareg's towing capacity. Besides, if you're really that concerned about towing such a large weight behind the vehicel, why did you buy an SUV in the first place?! You need a real truck for that!!


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Then give us an example of any other truck that advertised 7700 or more towing capacity that limited its tongue weight to 600 or so pounds. In fact, coursts have consistently held that advertising that misleads a customer is actionable.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

I think what is really bothering me about all of this is the fact that this is a major purchase...V8, Premium Plus, etc. $50,000.00. And because of the fact that it was well known that no other Hitch would work with the Touareg.
I simply find it incomprehensible that anyone would actually jump into this without doing a good deal of research before making the purchase. Particularly when towing this Airstream is the focal point of the purchase. And from a salesman that "knew NOTHING about towing". It would seem to me that it would have been a better course to wait until the hitches arrived and one was installed on a Touareg and included a trip to my Airstream Dealer as part of the Test Drive.
"The trailer hitch may only be used with SUITABLE BALL MOUNT and BALL. USAGE only with SUITABLE COUPLING. When towing a trailer attach the safety chains to the lugs provided."
That pesky Instruction Manual again... I do not see anywhere in the above that the Ball Mount and Ball provided must be used.
"It is not possible for the vehicle manufacturer to check all types of trailer or accessories in all combinations and to issue the relevant recommendations. The vehicle driver is personally liable for his vehicle-trailer combination and/or accessories.
I am truly sorry that you did not have a Sales Person that was professional enough to realize your needs and direct your attention to the benefits of patience. Before I met * VRACER * I knew nothing about towing either...Hell, I am from Manhattan. Growing up I was taught that if you do not know how to do something; hire someone that does...







He asked the questions, I said "I don't know, but I'll find out", and we went from there. And the purchase was not complete until the research was done and the questions were answered...and if not by me, then by my Fleet partner who is from Ca. and has been towing stuff around for decades...
I am frustrated by the fact that no one wants to be responsible for their own actions anymore...It is always someone else's fault...

_Modified by vwguild at 8:42 AM 9-14-2003_


_Modified by vwguild at 8:44 AM 9-14-2003_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (Pelican18TQA4)*

I'm no Airstream trailer expert but if I scale this photo out (Touareg = 187" total length), then the Airstream has a total length of about 28'. 








According to the Airstream website, any of their trailers which are 25' or more have at least a 750 lb tongue weight:
http://www.airstream.com/produ....html 
http://www.airstream.com/produ....html
Now if the commercial had shown the Touareg towing a boat, then there would have been less of an arguement.


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_According to the Airstream website, any of their trailers which are 25' or more have at least a 750 lb tongue weight:


And? Where is the problem? - Guys (spockcat - I know you are supplying pure information only, so that post is not targeted towards you), don't you understand that this is all about weight & balance? Looking at that Airstream, the front axle is right in the middle of the trailer. If you put all your extra luggage at the rear end of that Airstream, you may very well lower the actual tongue weight and be just fine within the limits. I hope you understand that you cannot fully load the car anymore due to other restrictions - and that will be with ANY other car/SUV/truck in the world. They all have limitations and frankly, commercials can do whatever they want to do. If you bought based on a commercial, then nobody in the world can help you for your outrageous stupidity and I hope that in case you make it in front of a judge (which you won't anyways), that he will take your driver's license away from you.
And yes, I agree with those of you as well, that say, that a Touareg can pull a 7700lb trailer if all the other parameters are within the limits.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Placing more weight to the rear of a trailer to lighten tongue weight causes "tail wag," a very dangerous condition. Large tractor-trailers creat bow waves and when they pass the rear of the trailer; if weight is distributed as you suggest, you can be in a life-threatening situation. Frankly, blaming the customer for VW's negligence is about as outrageous a form of corporate arrogance as it gets.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (TouaregV8owner)*

I was just about to go back and read all of your posts on this topic, but then discovering that you are my age and an educator, I realize that it would be a waste of time...You are way too old and should be far more experienced...Your comments on this page alone defy all reason for a gentleman about to enter his 6th decade on this earth...
If you made this purchase sight unseen, and without the proper due diligence;
then I am truly sorry...


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Maybe you can find someone who can read them to you and perhaps even simplify them. I will leave it to those who follow this thread to decide who defies reason.


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

Hey, boys and girls, let's play nicely. We are all in the same boat trying, (from our own expieriences and points of view) to reach THE TRUTH....Or, at least, the meaning of life.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Wow,
VW guild. You have now sunk to new lows. Making comments about people's age? Is that all you can come up with? You have lost all respect and credibility. It's ironic though. When I first began doing research into buying my Touareg I did in fact spend many hours on this board, and reading many of your comments. And they were very helpful. Even then there wasn't a lot of specific information available about towing except of course for the basic 7700 lb., 616 lbs numbers. Did you know about all of the other issues regarding weight distribution, ball height, and distance from pin to ball requirements back then? Did you actually have a hitch on hand to look at? I consulted this board to gain knowledge and insight into a product which I am spending a considerable amount of money. Hey I'm from Manhattan also, I live there now and have for most of my life. I am very aware of not making decisions before knowing the facts. It's extremely presumptous of you and anyone else on this board to imply that I would make a choice because of a commercial. 
I's obvious to me at this point in my struggle that no one has a clear answer on this so instead of admitting it and trying to help, everyone becomes defensive and mean spirited. It's getting personal. Time to move on.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

Sinking to new lows?...The gentlman and I are the same age...That was my point...
And, in none of this was I referring to you... Have no idea why you would even think that; so this is not personal at all.
But to answer your questions...
Yes, I had/have hitches on hand...The important #, the 616# GTW was only revealed by opening the carton the hitch was packed in and reading the instructions which also included the 6.15" pin to ball Recommendation. This was all done prior to installing the hitch, and BEFORE it was ever taken to Service area and Tecnician for installation. The above quotes are from the same Owner's Manual & Instruction Booklet.
As a matter of fact, I faxed it to my customers BEFORE they purchased their
Touaregs. And, just my opinion, but I cannot imagine doing it any other way. 
If you were my customer I would have done the exact same thing, recommending that you take them to your AirStream Dealer to make sure that we were all on the same page. 
I am not really content just having customers...I want happy customers that enthusiastically refer their friends to me...And maybe that is because I am Old & Wise...


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (vwguild)*

vwguild, 
It sounds like you did the right thing. But I can see the senario as per my post here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...01768
Not by you but by other dealers and some buyers. This is what the uproar is all about.


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: (bluvalley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluvalley* »_Did you know about all of the other issues regarding weight distribution, ball height, and distance from pin to ball requirements back then? Did you actually have a hitch on hand to look at?

bluvalley
I am only trying to help at this point and if you or anybody else finds any correction for the mechanical physics calculation I have been doing, then please let me know and I will update and correct the sketch.
Yes, I had a towing hitch at hand and the serivce department manager and I agreed that I will not have the towing hitch installed unless all the questions are answered, though a few of them are logic and do not have to further specified by VW at all.
To your question, receiver lenght: Of course, VW has to say that no other receiver can be used, because all of the physics and factors change, if you do so, and the limitations change with it. They can only give you some guidance, but then it is your responsibility to apply changes accordingly.
e.g. *I am most certain that you can use a different receiver* , BUT be aware, that max tongue weight will change with it.
Please have a look at the sketch and anybody, please let me know if any of the drawing is NOT correct. Otherwise, take this as a starting point for your own thinking and calculation.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (spockcat)*

Benefit of the doubt to you...But! As someone who has towed nothing except helping move a "Water Buffalo" 50' in Quantico, Va. in 1967...I would have, (and did) looked at that commercial as funny...Same with the ones in the snow and the river/stream...The tag line was that the Touareg could do things that other VWs could not.
That said...If towing was a real important component aspect in making this buying decision, and knowing that there are several ancillary issues involved
with towing...Common sense would seem to dictate that some consultation with the Trailer vendor would be the natural thing to do...And particularly if 
what was being towed was right on the Max. side of capacity weight. And, I mean BEFORE the purchase not afterwards.
And, although what we do here is informative, and certainly entertaining, it is not a sustitute for proper due diligence...


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: (vwguild)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguild* »_Benefit of the doubt to you...But! As someone who has towed nothing except helping move a "Water Buffalo" 50' in Quantico, Va. in 1967...I would have, (and did) looked at that commercial as funny...Same with the ones in the snow and the river/stream...The tag line was that the Touareg could do things that other VWs could not.
That said...If towing was a real important component aspect in making this buying decision, and knowing that there are several ancillary issues involved
with towing...Common sense would seem to dictate that some consultation with the Trailer vendor would be the natural thing to do...And particularly if 
what was being towed was right on the Max. side of capacity weight. And, I mean BEFORE the purchase not afterwards.
And, although what we do here is informative, and certainly entertaining, it is not a sustitute for proper due diligence...

You are making the point here - exactly right and true! Well said, nothing to add here!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You would think that people driving a VW Touareg would use some common sense...


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## Phagus (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: (wkaml)*

I think that the calculations are a bit more complex. One of the thing to consider is the torque applied to the rear axle and if this value is a limiting factor then, the formula is
(10" + distance ot the rear axle) * 616 = (16" + distance to the rear axle) * X
and the receiver can be heavier than wkaml's estimate. (in this formula I used the values from the wkaml's previous post assumptions).
One of the factors, that complicate the calculations and it is one of the reason why VW does not want anybody to use a non-VW receiver is a fairly short T-reg's wheel base. If one makes a longer receiver, the front of the car will become unstable even though the rear axle and the hitch can handle the weight of the hitch. It is obvious, of course, but thanks for attention.


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## D Clymer (Feb 18, 1999)

*Re: (wkaml)*

I'm a huge fan of the Touareg, and an even bigger fan of the VW corporation, so I'm the last person to be critical of either. However, it does seem some negligence has occured here. 
The way I see it, VW is not wrong in their claim that the Touareg can safely tow 7716 lbs. It just has to be with a trailer that distributes the weight properly so the tongue weight doesn't exceed 612 lbs. From what people have said on this thread and another, it sounds like this type of trailer exists. 
However, their negligence was in letting their ad agency depict the Touareg towing a 7700 lb trailer that does not meet those requirements. That does imply in the boldest fashion that the Touareg and a big Airstream are a viable combo. It doesn't work for me that the ad is all in fun. The way it reads to me is the page with the Beetle doing a wheelie is all in fun, but when you turn the page, the composed looking Touareg is for real.
Saying that the whole ad is to be taken with a grain of salt is problematic. It that were the case, are we then to also doubt the other ads: that the Touareg can ford the stream that drowns out the Golf, or that it can plow on through the deep snow that high centers the Jetta? That would call the very essence of the Touareg into question.
I do think VW needs to address customer satisfaction here right away. Anyone who feels they can't use the vehicle for what they had originally intended should be eligable for a refund. It's an awesome vehicle, and I think most owners would opt to keep it unless they really can't tow what they wanted to with it. But the option should exist.
It's not like they'd lose any money on it either. They could resell those buy backs throught their VW credit wholesale auctions, and I can guarantee you those would bid out at top dollar. Lots of dealers would love to have an almost new Touareg to sell on their used car lots.


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## wkaml (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: (****us)*


_Quote, originally posted by *****us* »_I think that the calculations are a bit more complex.

Just want to comment on that one line: Yes, you are correct and everything you mentioned in addition to that below. This was supposed to be a sketch and give you some rough understanding and ideas as of why VW would not commit to any other receiver. The fact that the receiver will add weight as well, that it will make the car more unstable as the arm is being extended, is clear. Though the calculation might get you somewhere close to the new limitation. Too bad I did not measure center to center when I had the hitch in my hands... I sent an eMail to Westfalia in Germany in German and hopefully I will get some response - though I doubt I will. Only a couple of technical designers from both, Westfalia and VW would be able to give you all of the answers.
Important note: The tongue weight limitation calculation should be fine. What will change is the max weight of the trailer as a longer hitch arm will add stability problems with the same trailer weight. A lighter trailer should be fine though.


_Modified by wkaml at 9:48 AM 9-15-2003_


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

D Clymer,
Bravo. You have summed it up perfectly.
Thanks,
James (bluvalley)


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

Back to basics for a second. The hitch is made up of two parts. One part is solidly attached to the tow vehicle. I seriously doubt that anyone here is planning to use any "hitch" or "receiver" other than that supplied by VW. If you want to use something different, stop here. The second part of the assembly is the removable "hitch", "drawbar", "ball assembly", or "male member". This is what some of us are talking about having to change. The ball may have to be raised an inch or two so the trailer and tongue will be level. (With a two axle trailer, the tongue weight changes as the tongue is raised or lowered due to the movement of the effective fulcrum between the two axles.)
I'm not sure whether or not I agree with "wkaml". VW says 6+ inches pin to ball. I believe "wkaml" is using 10" from ball to hitch attachment point on vehicle to illustrate his point about lengthening the "draw bar". I'm not sure if that 10" distance shouldn't be the distance from the ball to the rear axle. 
BTW I placed a 600# (+/-) weight on the standard ball assembly. I have steel springs, and the rear of the car dropped 1 1/2" at the rear axle, at the front axle, it rose 1/4".
So far, we have talked primarily about static and vertical loads. These loads can be easily addressed by a weight distribution hitch. BUT VW AIN'T TALKIN". However, from a vehicle control point of view, by lengthening the draw bar-ball distance, you can make the tail effectively powerful enough to wag the dog. That is a thrill ride I don't want to experience at 60mph.
Keep them cars 'n letters comin'. We learn a bit more from each one.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Vracer,
Thanks for your insight. I too placed my Airstream on the supplied arm and ball (steel springs) and it dropped about the same, maybe a little more. So naturally the solution would be to raise the arm/ball by turning it over so it's higher. The problem here is that even this change does not conform to the Westfalia's specs. They have a very specific drawing showing "Proper" ball placement. The Airstream dealer was very adamant about not using the supplied arm and ball for a number of reasons: arm too short to make safe turns, vehicle will not be level, and most notably it would make it impossible to add a proper sway control, weight distribution system. In his many years of experience he said he would never consider towing a trailer with at least one of these if not both. Even on a vehicle with way more capacity than a Touareg. You're absolutley right that VW AIN"T TALKIN, but I feel at this point I have to listen to the RV technician (I hope I'm right). I've taken my Airstream out for a couple of short runs (50 miles or so) and it felt fine. Of course there was no heavy winds, and I didn't go above 65. I'm nervous though, and I feel that VW is being sketchy in their handling of this very serious issue. 
James


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## Outrageous (Jul 3, 2003)

I think a significant distinction which needs to be made here is the difference between a load-bearing hitch and a load-distributing hitch. If you put a load on the former type, it's just like pushing down on the ball with whatever tongue-weight your trailer has. And if the drawbar is longer (pin to ball distance), then your lever arm is longer and the front axle is further unweighted, leading to more instability. 
On the other hand, with a load-distributing hitch, some of the tongue weight is transferred to the front axle of the tow vehicle (and a small bit to the trailer axle). And with this arrangement, the length of the drawbar doesn't really matter.
Here is a way to think about it: Imagine your kid has a toy Touareg about 16 inches long with a 4 inch trailer hitch sticking out the back. If you push down on the trailer hitch with your hand, you can make the front wheels come off the ground. But if you grab the 4 inch bar and push down on it like you would with a spatula to flatten a hamburger, you can apply force to both front and rear wheels. In other words, you have applied torque to the hitch. This is how a load distributing system works.
So I think with this latter system, the Touareg can tow a trailer with a tongue weight greater than 616 pounds, since some of that weight will be transferred to the front, maintaining steering stability. The gross vehicle weight should be kept in mind however.


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## TouaregV8owner (Aug 7, 2003)

Two problems with a weight distributing hitch on the Touareg. (1) the ball arm on those hitches extends into the vehicle hitch receiver so far they'd be six inches into the Touareg's muffler and (2) Vw specifies that 6 inch pin to ball limit and qualifies that in no way.


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (TouaregV8owner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TouaregV8owner* »_Two problems with a weight distributing hitch on the Touareg. (1) the ball arm on those hitches extends into the vehicle hitch receiver so far they'd be six inches into the Touareg's muffler and (2) Vw specifies that 6 inch pin to ball limit and qualifies that in no way.

Please explain what you mean by six inches into the muffler. The weight distributing bars attach to the hitch/ball and arm below the ball and extend backwards toward the trailer hitch/tongue where they attach by chain or otherwise. I think we all acknowledge that there are no hitches/ball and arms made that are six inches ball to pin that can accomodate weight distributing attachments. Therefore, in it's current configuration I believe the Touareg can only be used to tow safely(e.g. with weight distributing and sway attachments) camping trailers weighing much less than 7700 lb with much less than 616lb tongue weight to make up for the longer ball to pin length required.
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE POST PICS OF INSTALLED HITCH ASSEMBLY ON TOUAREG.


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## bt-treg (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

Hitch Pictures in this thread; 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=962851

_Modified by bt-treg at 10:08 PM 9-16-2003_

_Modified by bt-treg at 10:12 PM 9-16-2003_


_Modified by bt-treg at 10:14 PM 9-16-2003_


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

A few extra points here. bluvalley: DON'T GO 65; you only think you are in control. You have a big ugly, (in your case pretty) animal back there trying to push you off the road. If everything stays fine, you can go 100. But I promise things won't stay fine forever.
Enough preaching. Was your tow with the VW supplied draw bar? Were you driving around with your nose in the air because you didn't have weight distribution? Do you have steel or air suspension? 
I think you can get a proper hitch down very close to 6". I haven't tried yet, but it is very easy to check. Simply install the supplied hitch, and backup at a 45/50 degree angle to the trailer. Doubt you will ever exceed that angle.
Outrageous, please read my last post again. You were only addressing the static vertical load. Please excuse my math, which is probably flawed, but imagine a 36" pin to ball measurement with a 100# weight. But if you turn the Touareg and apply the brakes, the 7,000# trailer now has a nice long lever arm which will push you right off the road into (hopefully) a nice soft strawberry field.


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

bluevalley - Sorry I broke for dinner in the middle of my post; it doesn't make a lot of sense. Paragraph 3......close to 6". I have drawn mods to my present hitch, but have not yet had it welded.........."I haven't tried yet" is a reference to your trailer guy saying you would not have enough turning radius.


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (bt-treg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bt-treg* »_Hitch Pictures in this thread; 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=962851

_Modified by bt-treg at 10:08 PM 9-16-2003_

_Modified by bt-treg at 10:12 PM 9-16-2003_

_Modified by bt-treg at 10:14 PM 9-16-2003_

I was hoping for pics of the hitch receiver without the protective rear plate that covers it so that could see how attached and length of shaft that hitch arm goes into.


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *donaldvanw* »_
I was hoping for pics of the hitch receiver without the protective rear plate that covers it so that could see how attached and length of shaft that hitch arm goes into.

I just got mine installed Monday. What would you like to see?
The receiver tube(square) is 6" long. From pin(hole) to muffler is just under 4".
Good news for me. My Moto-tote fits just fine, and the wiring works without a flaw. It'll look something like this: 
http://jocaputo.homeip.net/ima...1.jpg 
once loaded on my Touareg. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (JoCaputo)*

Thanks JoCaputo you've answered some of my questions about receiver length and distance from hole to muffler- 4" seems awfully short. I was curious to also see how/where the hitch assembly is actually attached to frame.


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

Here are a couple of shots, from under the truck. You aren't going to see much without taking off the bumber.
http://jocaputo.homeip.net/ima...1.jpg
http://jocaputo.homeip.net/ima...2.jpg 
John


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (JoCaputo)*

JoCaputo- cool! and graphically answers my questions. Thanks MUCH for the instant response. Good luck with your T-reg!


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## bt-treg (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

They were installing one the last time I was in shop. Hitch is 2" Heavy wall box tube about 3-3.5 ft long with 2" reciever welded to bottom; has mounting brackets at each end that bolt to frame.
No attachments anywhere else.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Vracer,
Thanks for your help. Judging by your 1st paragraph I am now even more worried!
As for the 50 mile tow, I did not use the supplied arm/ball. The ball is simply too low. I am unable to use the supplied arm/ball for any reason, even for a short test drive. I used the Reese WD hitch, arm and sway control. I don't have the measurements on hand, but the distance from the pin to the ball was somewhere around 12 to 14 inches. Way beyond VW's specs. 
My Touareg has the steel suspension. I'm sure with modification you can get a proper hitch down to 6 inches but my Airstream technician was very adamant about not doing this.
The bottom line is that VW needs to do one of two things to make this all go away. Either state that using and aftermarket arm/ball will not void the warranty and remove the restrictions regarding ball position, or supply a new arm/ball that will meet their requirements and mine as well as everyone else's.
I really appreciate everyone's feedback on this issue.
James


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## 95GLX (Dec 13, 1999)

Quick question on all this. 
What is the largest ball this reciever will fit? Will it take a 2 5/16" ball with the 1" diameter shaft or is it limited to balls with a 3/4" diameter shaft.
Anthony Dowd


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## bt-treg (Jul 16, 2003)

The VW furnished 2" ball has a thread OD of 1 3/16 inches; hole must be approx 1-1/4 inch.


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## Outrageous (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: (vracer)*

Vracer,
Right you are about not using a 36-inch drawbar! I think with a weight-distributing system a 12-inch drawbar would probably be OK though.


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## vlade31 (Oct 13, 2002)

*not surprised*

VW is going down the craps for sure...all u Treg owners should demand buybacks...regardless of if u tow or not...car should deliver what it promises...i cannot beleive VW thinks they can lie like this and get away with it..


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

Have never towed with air-suspension and was wondering-
1) if it could be used to help set the proper ball height for coupling to trailer
2) should it be locked when towing? and if so at what height?
It would seem the answer to all questions would be yes.
What do others think?


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## bt-treg (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

Locking Air susspension: Believe can only use this in extra hieght mode & normally only for changing tires. 
Towing: Mine has air and with a trailer tongue wt of 250#, the air keeps car level and no drop in rear; prior vehicle (2000 Merc Mountaineer) I had rear drop of 2-3".


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (JoCaputo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoCaputo* »_Here are a couple of shots, from under the truck. You aren't going to see much without taking off the bumber.
http://jocaputo.homeip.net/ima...1.jpg
http://jocaputo.homeip.net/ima...2.jpg 
John
John, what is the red stuff between hitch receiver and muffler?


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *donaldvanw* »_John, what is the red stuff between hitch receiver and muffler?


It's the truck body.(Mine is Red). The silver hole you see in it is for one of the clips on the plastic bumper cover. I can't see how it's connected to the rest of the body(behind the bumper), but since it's body color...


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

This is a very serious warning to all Touareg Owners!
Do not tow with anything other than the VW supplied arm/ball combination with their specs. Do not attach ANY aftermarket arm/ball to the VW hitch. If the height does not match your trailer hitch than you are in trouble. I have just gotten off the phone with VWOA (James Custer) and he has told me they still have no solution. I have been struggling with VWOA, and my dealer for 8 weeks with no resolution. It really sucks. The worst customer service I have ever experienced. This is not a minor issue either. This could cause a very serious accident if you do not adhere to VW's specifications. 
Next step is the Attorney General. My attorney is already working on it.
Please for everyone's safety DO NOT USE anything other than the VW arm/ball.
James


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

Thanks for the warning. Do you mind if I ask, how high up was the guy you spoke with? Just wondering whether if this is the standard customer care type person or you have reached some further technical level.
Any indication on whether a resolution was coming soon? If so, which direction would they be taking? The way I see it there are these options;
1) Buy back or rebate current owners and clarify the rating to future buyers better.
2) Redesign the hitch so it could tow what they showed in their ads and then give current owners with installed hitches the updated hitch.
3) Do more testing and allow more styles/sizes of aftermarket arm/ball possibilities as well as uprate the current hitch.
4) Not do anything and let the current owners band together to sue them (highly unlikely I think).


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

After market ball/arms that have weight distributing attachments are adjustable in height. Therefore, it can be adjusted so that the problem of disparate heights is eliminated. That's one of the major reasons that many of us feel that after market products are much safer than the VW configuration for many applications. 
I understand from prior posts that your issue relates to the weight of the trailer and tongue weight of the hitch and wish you well in your efforts to resolve. However, the above is important for people towing trailers that are considerably below the the VW stated max. weights.


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## jeffdavison (Sep 12, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

Any one with a hitch.....
What is the height of the ball (from the ground)?
As I am about to purchase a T-Reg with a hitch, I have an existing trailer that fits well withing the limitations of toal weight and tounge, All I really have to do is match the ball height.
Thanks
Jeff Davison


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (jeffdavison)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jeffdavison* »_Any one with a hitch.....
What is the height of the ball (from the ground)?
As I am about to purchase a T-Reg with a hitch, I have an existing trailer that fits well withing the limitations of toal weight and tounge, All I really have to do is match the ball height.


15" to the top of the tongue(bottom of the ball). That's in Normal(on-road) ride height, and Auto suspension mode. So, I could move it down a bit in sport, or up in Off-road(which probably isn't a good choice).


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

Top of ball is 18", unladen with steel spring V-8. I put 600" on VW ball, and the height of the fender at rear axle dropped 1 1/2", front was raised 14".


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (vracer)*

The front of the car raised 14"??? This is a typo, right?

_Quote, originally posted by *vracer* »_Top of ball is 18", unladen with steel spring V-8. I put 600" on VW ball, and the height of the fender at rear axle dropped 1 1/2", front was raised 14".


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

To Donaldvanw: I agree with you that most people feel that aftermarket products will work in a safer manner for towing. The fact of the matter is that VWOA will not honor your warranty if something were to go wrong with an aftermarket arm/ball combination.

To Sprockat: As per my last conversation with VWOA (9/19) I was told they would not buy back any vehicles, and that they were still working on the towing issues. All of your suggestions in regards to a solution are right on the money, but from what I've gathered over the past 9 weeks is that VW simply will not deal with this until something terrible happens.


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## nj TDI fan (Feb 15, 2003)

It is my clear understanding from my training in AZ that a weight distributing hitch is strictly verboten. In that way, you are limited to towing with a "Truck" with a ladder type frame design. That is also part of the reason that it is a class III hitch design. The info was presented very clearly to the salespeople that atttended. However, like what some of the other posts stated, this is why the American Big Three have "truck managers" whose job it is to spec and sell "job specific" vehicles.
In short, I feel your pain. We should all continue to work together to reach a conclusion that will move us all forward.


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## oscarb57 (Sep 12, 2003)

*Re: (nj TDI fan)*

<<That is also part of the reason that it is a class III hitch design>>
I thought these were Class IV hitches. Class III only covers up to 5000 pounds.


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (bluvalley)*



bluvalley said:


> To Donaldvanw: I agree with you that most people feel that aftermarket products will work in a safer manner for towing. The fact of the matter is that VWOA will not honor your warranty if something were to go wrong with an aftermarket arm/ball combination.
> I believe that VWA has taken the position that if aftermarket ball/arm together with weight distributing/sway attachments were used in a proper configuration for the trailer(e.g. as recommended by trailer mgf.) were attached to the VW receiver in the right manner (e.g. proper height, etc) and obviously the trailer/tongue weight restrictions were not exceeded--the VWA warranty would not be invalidated. That is to say that if you use the right equipment and the installation is properly done(e.g. authorized trailer sales/repair) you are ok.
> That still doesn't address the issue of whether all this works for 7700 lbs but it does seem to provide some satisfaction/comfort for folks towing substantially below that.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Maybe VW has taken that position but they have not told me that, or anyone else. The only response I get from VW at this point is "we have no answer for you". 
Is the fact that they are not giving the OK on the WD hitch a legal issue or does it have to do with the structure of the Touareg? Will it compromise the frame? Will it cause a loss of control? Is there not enough flex in the unibody construction that would make the WD hitch work properly and as a result cause some catastrophic malfunction?
Sorry to sound so dramatic but why are they not saying?
It's a simple question.


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

*Re: (vracer)*

Re:
Front of the car raising 14". It is NOT a typo. It is a bad typist. It came up 1/4" at front axle.


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## vracer (Jul 2, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

The VW supplied hitch says on the side:
Trailer wt. Tongue wt.
Weight Distribution 7700# 616#
Weight Carrying 7700# 616#
I don't see any prohibition on a weight distribution system here.


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes, I am aware of those numbers. But ask VWOA what will happpen if you attach a WD system and find out what your response is, same goes for the dealer.
BTW, it also says on sticker on the other side of the hitch "Approved ball position" and a note a the bottom that says "risk of loss of vehicle of control" if not kept within these specs. If you peel back this sticker you will see big words that say "VOID" stamped on the hitch, underneath the sticker.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (vracer)*

RR...You are correct, as usual... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Once again







From the Installation and Operation Manual:
* The trailer hitch may only be used with SUITABLE ball mount and ball. Usage only with SUITABLE coupling.  * 
Again, this does not seem confusing to me...I have quoted before from this manual the disclaimer regarding the vast multitude of available options and combinations of trailers and couplers...I think it is time to apply some good old fashioned horse sense here...
No manufacturer of anything(VW, Range Rover, Porsche, Dodge, Ford) is going to guarentee/warranty other manufacturers products(Draw-tite, etc.) or how they are used...


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (vwguild)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguild* »_RR...You are correct, as usual... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Once again







From the Installation and Operation Manual:
* The trailer hitch may only be used with SUITABLE ball mount and ball. Usage only with SUITABLE coupling.  * 
Again, this does not seem confusing to me...I have quoted before from this manual the disclaimer regarding the vast multitude of available options and combinations of trailers and couplers...I think it is time to apply some good old fashioned horse sense here...
No manufacturer of anything(VW, Range Rover, Porsche, Dodge, Ford) is going to guarentee/warranty other manufacturers products(Draw-tite, etc.) or how they are used...

You are absolutely right in that Range Rover, Porsche, Dodge and Ford will not warranty Draw-Tite or other manufacturers products- nor should they. However, these automobile manufacturers do not say that use of such aftermarket products will invalidate their warranty. This is exactly the point-- VW is right in saying that only a "suitable" ball mount and coupling should be used. However, VW is not right in saying that only their ball mount and coupling are "suitable"--ESPECIALLY when their hitch arrangement is not SUITABLE for towing under various circumstances.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

What is your source on this warranty info from VWOA?


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

The names I've spoken to so far have been,
James Custer and Katie Fox.
Ask them.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

No...Where in print? In your Owner's Booklet titled 'Warranty'? I cannot find any mention there...In the Owner's manual for the hitch? Not there either....
I am confused...


_Modified by vwguild at 9:40 PM 9-23-2003_


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## bluvalley (Jul 20, 2003)

Take a look at the actual hitch on the car and the sticker tha t shows "approved ball position". Peel it back slightly and look at what it says. An nice big "VOID". This is where VW is covering their ass. If you remove the sticker that shows their absurd ball position than it voids any responsibility. 
Looks pretty clear to me.


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (bluvalley)*

In all candor...I am speechless...


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## spinnetti (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (vracer)*

Ok, This is a very good thread, but you guys need to learn to spell!
Its Tongue, Not Tung!
Its Sneer, Not Snear!
I hope they figure it out. I haven't bought one yet, but it would be pretty pointless to have such a heavy car that can't tow!


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## mudman2 (Aug 7, 2003)

quote from the Cayenne board today
"I received my ball mount from Niello Prosche. 
It's a heavy duty mount rated to tow 10,000 lb.. It has a 2" ball with a 1 1/4" shank. 
Most boat trailer ball mounts have a shank size of 3/4 - 1", ball size 1 7/8". 
You need a bushing to reduce shank size for a 1 7/8 ball. 
Any better or worse for the knowledge ?


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## Torags (Aug 18, 2003)

I made that post.
Some corrections are in order: first 2"/1 1/4" shank has a 8000lb rating.
The comment, most trailer ball mounts have a shank size of 3/4 - 1", is paraphrased from my boat/trailer salesman. I recently learned that they undersized my tow connection (ball/trailer receiver).
With what I know now, I would not recommend using the bushing, it functionally allows a substandard ball to be used.
This knowledge is dangerous or useless, but not beneficial..


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## donaldvanw (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (JoCaputo)*

John, is that the electrical connection to the left of your hitch(I'm looking at pictures you posted previously)?? I assume that was part of the tow package. What is the configuration of the electricial recepticle - e.g. is it 7 prong- 6 flat ones in a circle with 1 round one in the middle?


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## JoCaputo (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (donaldvanw)*

Correct, left of the receiver, and part of the package. Its a 7 prong socket. I used the GM 7-4 converter(came w/ my avalanche) to plug in my Moto-tote. Lights all worked. 
I did get the "check signal lights" warning when ever I braked and right-turn-signaled at the same time. Waiting for the new software.


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