# The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines



## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

I have some fresh Toronto International Autoshow kits with engine specifications for the VW Touareg V6, Audi 3.2tt and Porsche Cayenne V6.
_These are all 3.2L 24 valve VR6 engines_.
*Touareg:*
3.2L V6
220 hp
225 lb-ft T

*Audi 3.2tt (Coupe and Roadster, with Quattro and DSG):*
3195 cc DOHC V6
84/3.31 mm/in Bore
95.9/3.78 mm/in Stroke
11.3:1 Compression Ratio
250 hp @ 6300 rpm
236 lb-ft T @ 2800-3200 rpm
Cast iron block, forged steel crank, 5 main bearings
Aluminum cylinder head, DOHC, _chain_ driven, 24 valves, hydraulic lifters
ME 7.5 Bosch Motronic control, hot film MAF, electronic throtle body

*Porsche Cayenne:*
3189 cc V6
84/3.31 mm/in Bore
95.9/3.78 mm/in Stroke
11.5:1 Compression Ratio
247 hp @ 6000 rpm
228 lb-ft T @ 2500-5500 rpm
78.5 hp/L
Cast iron block, light alloy cylinder head
Four valves per cylinder, _four_ cam shafts with continuous camshaft adjustment (







this could be wrong ... it's really two cam chafts







)
Variable-length intake manifold
ME 7.1.1 Bosch control

Obviously the Audi and Porsche info is greater than the VW info. If anyone has published technical info on the Touareg 3.2 and the VW R32: you can fill in the blanks for us.
This info is straight from brouchures or press kits. Some numbers don't match in the Porsche specs.

















_Modified by VR6ix at 11:25 PM 2-19-2004_


_Modified by VR6ix at 10:11 PM 4-1-2004_


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## jungle (May 6, 2002)

how can the cr be above 11.0:1? can you do that on pump gas? most stations around here sell 91octane as thier highest grade. Does anyone know FOR SURE what the cr is? i have seen several different #'s.


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## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

I don't doubt the CR at all. Most if not all N/A sports cars have CR's around 11:1 (S2000 11:1, BMW M5 11:1, LS6 Vette 10.5:1) Those numbers are from press material, too.
It's not so much how high the compression ratio is, just how the fuel/air and timing is managed. You could do 13:1 on 91 octane, but retard the timing a ton. You probly wont make much extra power, and 13:1 is harder on rods, pistons, crank, but it could happen.

And, oh yeah, we get Sunoco 94 in Canada, eh


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## WasserTuner (Oct 14, 2000)

*Re: (jungle)*

The factory compression is in deed 11.3 to 1. It is all in the efficency of the combustion chamber and head flow. The 3.2 heads have really nicely designed ports.


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## yablo_15 (Jan 2, 2004)

*Re: (WasserTuner)*

isn't the cayenne a turbo? So if it uses the same engine as the r32. You could buy an r32 and get everything else porsche uses to trubo and slap it on?
-Dan


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## WasserTuner (Oct 14, 2000)

*Re: (yablo_15)*

Nope wont work the Porsche Turbo is a 4.5 V8 Twin turbo.


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## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

Exactly. The Porsche engines are, from "lesser" to "greater":
3.2L V6 (3.2L VR6 from VW/Audi)
4.5L V8 (NA)
4.5L TURBO V8
There is no Turbo 3.2L V6 version.... from the factory...
Also of note: The Audi literature I have says (quote):
"Max. Turbo boost: 2.1 bar"
for the 250hp 3.2L V6 (VR6) (180hp 1.8t is 1.8bar, 225 hp 1.8t is 2.1bar)

Interesting.... :strokebeard:


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (VR6ix)*









ian


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## Prefekt (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_Also of note: The Audi literature I have says (quote):
"Max. Turbo boost: 2.1 bar"
for the 250hp 3.2L V6 (VR6) (180hp 1.8t is 1.8bar, 225 hp 1.8t is 2.1bar)

Interesting.... :strokebeard:

Am I misreading what you are saying here? The Audi 3.2L TT is not turbo'd, where are you getting a Max Turbo boost value for it?


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## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

You're not misreading that at all. It is NOT turbo'd. BUT Audi still put that specification in there, stating maximum turbo boost.
It could be a typo... or it could be a sign of things to come?


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_You're not misreading that at all. It is NOT turbo'd. BUT Audi still put that specification in there, stating maximum turbo boost.
It could be a typo... or it could be a sign of things to come?

A possible RS3 or TT RS may spring from this, there was a post about this a while back...turbo 3.2 VR6...


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## kn7671 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (VR6ix)*

VW Toureg VR6 Compression Ratio = 11.3 to 1. 
Someone asked how a CR this high is even possible? Simple, computers, sensors, etc....
Have you even looked at the Compression Ratio of modern high performance motorcycles???
2004 Kawasaki ZX-10R = 12.7:1 CR
2004 Yamaha YZF-R1 = 12.4:1 CR
2004 Honda CBR1000RR = 11.9:1 CR
2004 Suzuki GSXR1000 = 12.0:1 CR
Again, this would not be possible on 91-93 octane pump unleaded fuel without the use of computers, sensors, fuel injection, and continued research.


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## lucaq (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (kn7671)*

did anyone else notice that audi eliminated the S3 for this model year (they did offer it in the new generation car last year, i saw them and sat in them at the factory) because they now offer a A3 3.2. It does not have the S designation tho. So for the sportie A3 you can get 1.8t or 3.2 in S line, but no S designation.
Just an observation...this makes me agree with someone else's thought that there might be an RS designation in the works...


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## H2O2H (Mar 15, 2004)

Lucaq, did they make a VR6 back in '87, or did you pop one in?


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## brent0226 (May 26, 2002)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_
*Audi 3.2tt (Coupe and Roadster, with Quattro and DSG):*
3195 cc DOHC V6
84/3.31 mm/in Bore
95.9/3.78 mm/in Stroke
11.3:1 Compression Ratio
250 hp @ 6300 rpm
236 lb-ft T @ 2800-3200 rpm
Cast iron block, forged steel crank, 5 main bearings
Aluminum cylinder head, DOHC, *belt driven*, 24 valves, hydraulic lifters


Where did you get this information? The VR6's camshafts are chain driven.

_Quote »_
*Porsche Cayenne:*
3189 cc V6
84/3.31 mm/in Bore
95.9/3.78 mm/in Stroke
11.5:1 Compression Ratio
247 hp @ 6000 rpm
228 lb-ft T @ 2500-5500 rpm
78.5 hp/L
Cast iron block, light alloy cylinder head
Four valves per cylinder, *four cam shafts* with continuous camshaft adjustment (







this could be wrong ...







)


The VR6 has only 2 camshafts; there is no room for four.


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## H2O2H (Mar 15, 2004)

wtf, of course chain driven....???
and, who would seriously think one head having four cams???
i dun know of any cars in existence having four cams on one head...????


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## lucaq (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (H2O2H)*


_Quote, originally posted by *H2O2H* »_Lucaq, did they make a VR6 back in '87, or did you pop one in?

Mine is from a 96 thrown into my 87. It is actually easier if you put it into an 92 because the wire system is the same as the 96, so my wireing had to be converted over to the 92 wireing. I also have the dash from the 96, but either will work (assuming that you still do the wireing conversion to CE2)
this has been discussed thuroughly in the hybrid/swap forum if you would like more info


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## H2O2H (Mar 15, 2004)

WOW.....
You really must stun some people with the power. I great sleeper huhhh....


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## lucaq (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (H2O2H)*

I live above 5,000 feet, so the altitude really kills the power on this motor unless you have boost. It is a great daily driver and gives good power for that purpost, but really doesn't stun the way boost does up here.


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## H2O2H (Mar 15, 2004)

yeah, the air gets thinner with elevation.. that sucks!
I think denver is like 6K above sea level, so is everyone there use'n boost??? J/K, but it would be much better to have boost there!


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (H2O2H)*


_Quote, originally posted by *H2O2H* »_yeah, the air gets thinner with elevation.. that sucks!
I think denver is like 6K above sea level,


Ever hear the phrase "Mile High City"? 
There's a reason. One of the steps on the Denver courthouse is exactly 5280 feet above
sea level. 
NA engines lose about 3% of their power per 1000 feet of elevation. So it's roughly
15% down on power at Denver's elevation. .85 pressure density ratio for .85 of the horsepower.
A stock turbo car loses about 1/2 that per 1000 feet of elevation because it
generally regulates boost pressure above ambient. 
e.g .85 bar ambient + 1 bar boost = 1.85 absolute manifold pressure
versus 1 bar ambient + 1 bar boost = 2 bar absolute manifold pressure at sea level
With a chip or MBC you can push a turbo car till it matches the original
aboslute pressure at sea level.. like. .85 bar ambient + 1.15 bar boost = 2 bar absolute manifold pressure.
But if you do that, you still lose about 0.5% power per 1000 feet of elevation
due to heat generation. 1.15 bar boost generates more heat than 1 bar,
and hot air is less dense. 
So in general yes, boosted engines (turbos specifically) are better at altitude.
They're not perfect though. The WRX for instance, which has pretty noticeable
lag at sea level, and late onset (doesn't make power until above 3000 rpms)
is dreadful up here. Doesn't make any power at all until 3500 rpms and it
means that you have to shift pretty frenetically to keep it in the powerband 
all the time. 
ian


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## lucaq (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

the 993 twin turbo i drove the other day down santa fe drive really didn't seem to mind the altitude


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## H2O2H (Mar 15, 2004)

IAN,
Damn dude, that was perty impressive!
Cheers...
PS: I was lost at heat generation for a sec, hehehe. I would think heat would dicipate easier up there (floating away in the colder air), but being that the air is much thinner at higher elevations, it makes sense that it does not dicipate very easily! Especially, since there is less "AIR" absorbing/conducting that heat generated. That was a very good point!


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (H2O2H)*

The heat generation I'm talking about is because to acheive the same absolute
pressure, you have to produce more boost, and thus spin the compresser faster 
than you would at sea level. Most boost pressure, more heat. More heat,
less oxygen molecules per unit of volume. Less oxygen, less power. 
And yes, intercoolers and radiators are less effective up here too, because you're
passing through less air to carry away the heat.
ian


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## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (brent0226)*

All this info is from Offical Press Packages, from the Toronto Autoshow.
However, just because it's official doesn't mean it's 100% accurate. I noted that the Porsche "4 cam" spec was screwy, but I missed the belt vs. chain valve drive. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I recall a thread in the 12V forum debating if the VR is a true DOHC or if it's a SOHC... seems this 15 degree configuration gets even Porsche employees confused









_Quote, originally posted by *brent0226* »_Where did you get this information?


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_
I recall a thread in the 12V forum debating if the VR is a true DOHC or if it's a SOHC... seems this 15 degree configuration gets even Porsche employees confused










Cept that the 12v VR6 has two cams in one head and works the valves like a SOHC V6
while the 24v VR6 has two cams in one head and works the valves like a DOHC inline 6. 
In both cases, there is still only two cams in one head, and every single other
aspect of the engine behaves like an inline 6.








ian


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## farfromjapin (Nov 26, 2003)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_
Cept that the 12v VR6 has two cams in one head and works the valves like a SOHC V6
while the 24v VR6 has two cams in one head and works the valves like a DOHC inline 6. 
In both cases, there is still only two cams in one head, and every single other
aspect of the engine behaves like an inline 6.








ian

cept the crank


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (farfromjapin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromjapin* »_
cept the crank

How so? The crank looks more like that of an inline 6 than any V motor. 
The firing order is that of an inline 6.. 153624
ian


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## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (Daemon42)*

doesn't 2.1 bar equal about 30.45 psi? ? ? or am i totaly off on the calculation??


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_doesn't 2.1 bar equal about 30.45 psi? ? ? or am i totaly off on the calculation??









No, your forgetting the ambient pressure. 
Standing at sea level, there's 1 bar of ambient pressure on your body. 
When you open the throttle of a NA car, there's up to 1 bar of ambient air pressure in 
the intake manifold. It's a little misleading because it's the same pressure inside and 
outside, but from an engine power perspective, power output is *directly* proportional to
the pressure density ratio. If you could create a 100% vacuum in the cylinder
and then open the intake value, at sea level you pull in X amount of air, and a mile above
sea level you pull in 0.85*X. Boost on the other hand is usually measured
as pressure *above* ambient so total power comes from the oxygen in the ambient
air + the oxygen that comes from that boost pressure. If you increase the boost pressure
to compensate for the loss in ambient pressure, then you gain back the lost power
minus whatever extra heat is generated with increased boost.
ian


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## joshuajmurray (Oct 17, 2003)

*Re: The "Other" 3.2L VR6 24v Engines (kn7671)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kn7671* »_VW Toureg VR6 Compression Ratio = 11.3 to 1. 
Someone asked how a CR this high is even possible? Simple, computers, sensors, etc....
Have you even looked at the Compression Ratio of modern high performance motorcycles???
2004 Kawasaki ZX-10R = 12.7:1 CR
2004 Yamaha YZF-R1 = 12.4:1 CR
2004 Honda CBR1000RR = 11.9:1 CR
2004 Suzuki GSXR1000 = 12.0:1 CR
Again, this would not be possible on 91-93 octane pump unleaded fuel without the use of computers, sensors, fuel injection, and continued research.

Keep in mind bikes don't see the load cars do....


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## luisgp (Oct 18, 2001)

The owner of a local VW stealer told me that the toareg-cayenne V6 engine is an audi-derived 90 degree V6, not the 15 degree VR6, but i haven't had the chance to peek into the hood of one of these.
Cheers


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## brent0226 (May 26, 2002)

*Re: (luisgp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *luisgp* »_The owner of a local VW stealer told me that the toareg-cayenne V6 engine is an audi-derived 90 degree V6, not the 15 degree VR6, but i haven't had the chance to peek into the hood of one of these.
Cheers

Well you need to tell your local VW "stealer" that he is wrong, and that the Touareg, Cayenne, Audi TT, Golf R32, and Phaeton (Europe) ALL have the 15 degree 3.2l VR6 engine made by Volkswagen, tuned differently.


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## lucaq (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (brent0226)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brent0226* »_
Well you need to tell your local VW "stealer" that he is wrong, and that the Touareg, Cayenne, Audi TT, Golf R32, and Phaeton (Europe) ALL have the 15 degree 3.2l VR6 engine made by Volkswagen, tuned differently.

Brent is right, in fact, the VR6 is the first watercooled motor that VW engineered themselves for their own cars. All VW 4cyl are derived from orig audi designs, so he is got it all reversed. 1.8t and 2.0 are audi derived all VR6 are VW derived.


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## 2000GTI-VR6 (Aug 2, 2003)

I just wanted to put my 2 cents in about compression ratios. 
Too make a long story short , if you have an engine with a short stroke and a big bore, and you use really long rods, the net result is that the piston stays at the top of the cylinder longer to burn all the fuel. In doing this it allows the timing to be set normal and burn more fuel(considering the fact that the N/A engine doesn't burn all the fuel anyways). This alows higher compression ratios, to gain more HP and reduce emissions. Computers help when enviromental effects come into play and when crappy gas is entered into the system. 
Just to make another point. If chevy(don't get mad yet) had taken the V-8 305 engine and made the bore larger instead of the stroke to come up with 350 CI, they use 6.6 in connecting rods. They could have feasibly made an engine that would do over 400 horse on stock cams at 5500 rpm with pump 87 OCT gas with a compression ratio of 11.5 to 1. But they didn't(morons).


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: (2000GTI-VR6)*

The 996TT has 11.3:1 compression AND runs boost (10lbs?) on top of that.


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## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: (mj6234)*


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## lilaznplugger (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (VWParts)*

Hey quick question here, my gf has a 2006 Porsche Cayenne 3.2L which is the same as the R...so does that mean she could have a flapper on her exhaust as well? 
Just hoping so i could do the flapper mod on her whip http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## corradoslc7 (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: (lilaznplugger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilaznplugger* »_Hey quick question here, my gf has a 2006 Porsche Cayenne 3.2L which is the same as the R...so does that mean she could have a flapper on her exhaust as well? 
Just hoping so i could do the flapper mod on her whip http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I don't think it does but I couldn't find any pictures of the Cayenne 3.2 exhaust to make sure. You should get under there and check it out I would be curious to see.


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