# OBD1 motronic tuning thread?



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Anybody see this? Looks pretty bad ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi_cQODTO8c&feature=player_embedded


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I was doing that the other day, the Moates Ostrich is wicked .

Making good progress on my XDF, I've managed to compact all the ignition maps into one large one, so it's easier to tune. Gotta sort out which fuel maps to use to do the same thing on the fuel side, it'll make it waaaaaay easier to tune for boost.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> I was doing that the other day, the Moates Ostrich is wicked .
> 
> Making good progress on my XDF, I've managed to compact all the ignition maps into one large one, so it's easier to tune. Gotta sort out which fuel maps to use to do the same thing on the fuel side, it'll make it waaaaaay easier to tune for boost.


Have you been watching the switch point for the throttle position on the part to full throttle maps? I like the stock style maps because you can create flat spots in your maps.

Its about time people start using this now wonderful piece of equipment. I predict that very soon people will be putting the OBD1 harnesses back in the cars they just took them out of for the same reasons the honda guys do the OBD1 conversions.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Also I am going to be going through how to scale oll the maps so it matches what you see on your vag com so all your logs make sense.


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## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm really interested in learning how this setup works out, I just don't have an application for it at the moment. Tuning vems stand alone now and learning alot along the way. So yes, I'm following this thread


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok then I will keep adding how to add things to the defenition file if someone is paying attention. I will try to get some more up soon.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Have you been watching the switch point for the throttle position on the part to full throttle maps? I like the stock style maps because you can create flat spots in your maps.
> 
> Its about time people start using this now wonderful piece of equipment. I predict that very soon people will be putting the OBD1 harnesses back in the cars they just took them out of for the same reasons the honda guys do the OBD1 conversions.


Most of my work so far is theoretical, lol. Basically playing around with the hex at work, when I'm supposed to be working. I don't want to touch the fuel maps until I'm sure how they're used. For the ignition maps, all I've done so far is blend the 4 identical ones into a single map, and have left the idle and WOT maps alone. I don't work with WinOLS, so I've got to change all the parallel maps on my own and it's irritating. There's a MkIII cabby turbo in my garage currently, and once it's up and running, it'll be the test vehicle. I've had a little chance to play around, and have found which maps are the ISV control, coil dwell, MAF-linearization, air-temp transfer, and of course all the fuel/ignition ones...but no actual 'driving' yet .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Seems to me that folks are scared of tuning their own OBD1 ecus...
As a teaser, the Neuspeed P-chip for the ABA costs $110 from NS, and all they do is alter the part-throttle ignition maps. That's a $20 mod on a $0.50 chip...

A chip burner is $85, and the software is free..


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Probably why the nospeed chips suck. I have a autotech q-chip in mine, and I can tell you for sure they messed with the fuel. Runs pig rich on cold starts in the winter, and with a few quick stabs of the gas it will pump black smoke. 

Any chance you will ever mess with obd2? I wish I knew more about dissecting the actual code, we could do some interesting things like anti lag like the dsm people or some form of launch control. 

John finally put his chip in ecu, now he has to start it. 

Procedure for tuner pro is 
Load file to buffer 
Program buffer to chip 

Is this correct?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Yep, although I usually use a program called Emutility from Moates (free) to upload/download to the emulator. The latest version of TunerproRTv5 is a bit buggy, although it 'seems' to be ok when doing 32kb files. I had some issues doing OBD1 64kb files, and had to play with the settings for a while before it worked out.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

*C2 dongle*

I would like to tune OBD1 by emulation or whatever means. 
What is a good place to start learning about the data structures and which addresses represent which info, or is that all parsed by tunerpro/other? 
I am starting from nowhere here. 

Also anybody know what the extra chip tucked under the C2 chip carrier is on OBD1 chip tunes? 
I forgot to record that chip's part number. If no one knows I guess I'll have to go back in.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

vergessen wir es said:


> I would like to tune OBD1 by emulation or whatever means.
> What is a good place to start learning about the data structures and which addresses represent which info, or is that all parsed by tunerpro/other?
> I am starting from nowhere here.
> 
> ...


 As far as the C2 stuff goes they change some of the layout to suit their needs. Im not really sure why they did what they did but hey who cares I guess. I would be more inclined to tune off the stock format. 

That said there is enough info in the link above to tune your car. All you need to do is play around with the free software untill your comfortable with it and learn the layout from the links I posted. Its not that hard. If someone is actually interested in this then they can ask me specific questions here. I will also archive it elsewhere to make sure this stays public information.


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## scarboroughdub (Jul 8, 2002)

In order to modify map resolution you need to change other bits in the code so the processor know to look there. Send me your latest xdf and I will pointout what you are missing.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

And why do you need to change map resolution?


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

i rescale the rpm axis and the load axis to give more resolution example stock vr6 maps rpm is around 
6500 ..i rev to 7500rpm ....so with a stock maps when im 7500rpm the ecu would calculate from the last 
used bin at 6500rpm ...you can still get a good tune with stock axis


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've got an OBD1 M2.9 XDF...it's got all 186 maps on it . 

Now...I haven't identified them all, but it's getting there! www.ecuconnections.com is a great place to learn about Motronic tuning, as is www.motronic.ws/


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Just bought this: 

http://www.theprodmeeditor.com/ 

Seems to be a great Motronic tuning software package, can't wait to try it out .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Be interesting what maps they give you to work with. Other then that it will still have to be transposed to tunerpro to run the emulator. Let me know when you get this and I will help you set it up.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The previous version of the software required the user to insert the hex addresses, it did the rest of the calcs. It apparently gives you what you put in, which saves a lot of farting around with tunerpro to set up the axis' (although I've already done that). I've identified most of the 'main' maps, and traced them on a buddy's car, just don't have steady MkIII access right now to experiment . 

I'll post up when I get the software, for sure. The owner is out of town right now, so on sunday he's going to send me the download package. Can't wait to play with it . 

Tunerpro is still going to be used with my Ostrich, obviously, since the tracing works great. The DME Editor will probably end up being a secondary tool to help sort out the mapping.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> The previous version of the software required the user to insert the hex addresses, it did the rest of the calcs. It apparently gives you what you put in, which saves a lot of farting around with tunerpro to set up the axis' (although I've already done that). I've identified most of the 'main' maps, and traced them on a buddy's car, just don't have steady MkIII access right now to experiment .
> 
> I'll post up when I get the software, for sure. The owner is out of town right now, so on sunday he's going to send me the download package. Can't wait to play with it .
> 
> Tunerpro is still going to be used with my Ostrich, obviously, since the tracing works great. The DME Editor will probably end up being a secondary tool to help sort out the mapping.


 Well I was going to show everyone how to set up the main low,high,and full throttle fuel and timing maps in tunerpro. There are some other things that we can add in as well like cold start and injector size.


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## BARELY LEGAL (Jul 2, 2009)

Watching. Hope I can figure out just enough of what you guys know to tune my setup without messing anything up. Thanks!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Well I was going to show everyone how to set up the main low,high,and full throttle fuel and timing maps in tunerpro. There are some other things that we can add in as well like cold start and injector size.


 I'm down with that . 
I have a 'raw' XDF of all 186 M2.9 maps, if you'd like to see it. I think I sent it over before, but there might have been some errors in that version. 

I'd love to know exactly which maps are the main, low, mid, WOT maps. Ignition is fairly easy to sort, since there is only one descriptor used, but the fueling confuses me with multiple maps using different descriptors .


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*some help*

If you guys want some help just ask.

Jeffrey Atwood
United Motorsport


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Jefnes3 said:


> If you guys want some help just ask.
> 
> Jeffrey Atwood
> United Motorsport


Are you going to help me convince people that they can actually do this?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Jefnes3 said:


> If you guys want some help just ask.
> 
> Jeffrey Atwood
> United Motorsport


LOL! Love the hex string on your page :laugh:.


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

watching... I am currently tuning ms MS system and loving it, but would love to try tuning the OE computer.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Got the software, so far it seems quite interesting. It's necessary to input the addresses of each map, but the program deciphers the header on it's own, making axis population a breeze (if you don't have WinOLS). You have to populate the descriptor lookup table, with the characters and the offsets/conversions, as well as sort out the checksum calculation, but it's fairly simple with the early motronics. There is no need to program in the size of the x-y axis', since it interprets the header automatically, which I like . Tell it to look for a 3D table at XXXX, and it does the rest.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Got the software, so far it seems quite interesting. It's necessary to input the addresses of each map, but the program deciphers the header on it's own, making axis population a breeze (if you don't have WinOLS). You have to populate the descriptor lookup table, with the characters and the offsets/conversions, as well as sort out the checksum calculation, but it's fairly simple with the early motronics. There is no need to program in the size of the x-y axis', since it interprets the header automatically, which I like . Tell it to look for a 3D table at XXXX, and it does the rest.


Its so simple once you read the links I have posted. Once you know the RPM and MAF descriptor number the maps pop out at you right away. If you use an emulator its just like tuning a standalone. People think this takes some kind of computer nerd to do it but its really pretty simple.


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

Jefnes3 said:


> If you guys want some help just ask.
> 
> Jeffrey Atwood
> United Motorsport


do you no if there is a 8bit or 16bit single value injector constant in the obd1 m2.9 vr6 ecus


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Its so simple once you read the links I have posted. Once you know the RPM and MAF descriptor number the maps pop out at you right away. If you use an emulator its just like tuning a standalone. People think this takes some kind of computer nerd to do it but its really pretty simple.


Dude, maybe I missed something, but the only link you've posted in this thread is the Youtube one. I'm going to use this software to complement my XDF, since I've put a ton of work into it already, and Tunerpro is needed for the tracing anyway. I just like having a selection of tools to accomplish a single task, options rule .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Dude, maybe I missed something, but the only link you've posted in this thread is the Youtube one. I'm going to use this software to complement my XDF, since I've put a ton of work into it already, and Tunerpro is needed for the tracing anyway. I just like having a selection of tools to accomplish a single task, options rule .


Surprise the link went missing. 

http://www.vwforum.com/forums/f11/obd1-motronic-tuning-thread-43655/


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ah ha, the good stuff .

I just registered, I'm following that thread, DEFINITELY!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

If I get bored today I will show everyone how to set up the main fuel and timing tables in tunerpro.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

this looks intresting but a lil expensive programable digital maf with usb plug 
whats your thoughts http://www.abacoperformance.com/


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## Ex-ricer01 (Jan 28, 2009)

all very intresting, definatley watching. dont quite understand all of it yet but it is something i would like to learn.

one question though... does this have the potential to convert tunes to blow thru maf tunes?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

re: Blow thru maf

Sure this works already. The issue is density error at the maf.
So, once you able to properly map the fueling, you'll be able to map out the error.

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ex-ricer01 said:


> all very intresting, definatley watching. dont quite understand all of it yet but it is something i would like to learn.
> 
> one question though... does this have the potential to convert tunes to blow thru maf tunes?


To do this by altering the tables is going to be kinda tricky. What I am doing is opening the door for you guys. What you do when you get in is up to you.


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## tomslik (Nov 1, 2006)

Hey thanks for the post... I need zero to hero help but this is a good start. The beginning of the tread, well that wasn't the English I recognize :banghead:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Back from the dead... 
The software I was talking about earlier now seems to be heading for an update to v.2...complete with M2.9 configuration data already included . Next wed is the day I'll be springing for the update, can't wait!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Everyone have your bin file downloaded? Its time to get this party started.

http://www.easy-share.com/1911398084/ABA_OBD1.bin


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm ready coach!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

*You dont need any of these things yet to learn this and if your tuner already has them you may never need them*

This is the equipment you will need eventually,however most places that have a dyno already have these things.

BURN2 Chip Programmer [BURN2] - $85.00 : Moates.Net


This is the ostrich. Most honda tuners now have the V2.0 ostrich so this can be done by them.

Ostrich 2.0 : The New Breed [OSTRICH_2] - $175.00 : Moates.Net

And a couple of EEPROMs. I would get two or three of these. Most of your tuning is going to be done with the emulator. Again this is something that most honda tuners already have in stock.

C2 SST 27SF512 Chip [C2] - $5.00 : Moates.Net


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Now for the free software that you will need to download.

here is a good hex editor that will be used for a while to show you the principles of how to do this. Most of the things we will be learning are going to be done automatically by the software that we will be using as well.

http://www.x-ways.net/winhex.zip

Here is the main tune software that we will be using.Its called tunerpro and its a configurable software the is specifically for tuning chip files.Its free however I recomend giving the developer some $$$.

TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software

Also get your winols demo right here. Its very good for identifying maps.

Download WinOLS DEMO 1.098 - Free Download Review at Shareware Connection Software Portal, No Crack Serial Number, No Key Warez


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Before we can do anything we need to know how to correct the checksum. Once you learn how to do this you will be ready to start (kinda).

Lets start out with the 93-95 OBD1golf/jetta chip file.Everybody get it downloaded and we will start here.

Now open up your hex editor(winhex) and open up the file.The first thing we need to do is find the checksum and be able to recalculate it.

The checksum in most motronic chip files is by the file ID tag.This is usually located after most of the code and the maps in the file(we will get to that later).In this case its at CF00 and CF01.The checksum is a 16bit checksum and is the total of the block from 0000-CEFF.If you click edit- define block and type in the 0 for the start of the block and CEFF for the end of the block the hex editor will highlight that part of the chip file.Now you have the block selected to checksum.Click tools-calculate hash.On the drop down pick 16bit and then OK.That will spit out the checksum of the block.You will also notice this matches the locations CF00 and CF01.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok when everyone gets caught up here we will move forward on how to set this up to do it automatically in tunerpro. I just want everyone to understand what we are doing here first and it give everyone a chance to get used to dealing with what seems to be a bunch of random numbers and letters.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

That checksum is a pain in the behind, having tunerpro fix it automatically will make tuning a lot easier.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> That checksum is a pain in the behind, having tunerpro fix it automatically will make tuning a lot easier.


Well if you have a good checksum when you start the car you will be fine until you shut it off if you emulate. Then all you would need to do is to checksum when your done tuning,but the easiest way is to have the checksum update everytime you upload.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Nice, good to know. I've barely had a chance to emulate any OBD1 cars yet, but the ones I have tinkered with never popped a CEL during emulation...always wondered why. I'll be playing with winhex tonight, thanks for the info!


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

how does this timing map look for a 8.5.1 compresion vr6t base map if i alter all three 16x1 wot timing maps to the same value 
plus the 4 12x13 timing maps to the same value marked yellow is the peak load areas 
on the stock timing map and lower pic is the lowered timing map example 


















im aware i will have to be carefull with det and log timing with vag-com to see if any is being pulled


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

With low compression, I'd say you're definitely on the safe side of the timing at WOT/boost.

I really love the 'tune-it-yourself' community


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> Well if you have a good checksum when you start the car you will be fine until you shut it off if you emulate. Then all you would need to do is to checksum when your done tuning,but the easiest way is to have the checksum update everytime you upload.


i find tunerpro only corrects the checksum upon saving the altered bin . then as you say you have then upload the saved bin to the emulator again then all is good no checksum fault code


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

This thread isnt really about tuning theory but that looks decent. One thing to keep in mind is there is another map that is either a 1 by 12 or 1 by 16 that runs full throttle timing. That could pretty easily make for a bad day for you.

Also your XDF looks good but we need to scale the MAF on to give the flow readings.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

Jefnes3 said:


> If you guys want some help just ask.
> 
> Jeffrey Atwood
> United Motorsport


you wanna do a 660 setup for obd1 2.0's?.I'd love to get some more without changing my setup

I'll be watching and listening


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

tig!
when i click on the winols demo it takes me here?
what do i click

http://www.evc.de/en/default.asp


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Right here: http://www.evc.de/en/download/down_winols.asp


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

having problems finding the checksum.I find the cf00 and then i click and its gone...


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Daskoupe said:


> having problems finding the checksum.I find the cf00 and then i click and its gone...


There should be no need to click on it. Just look at it. CF00 and CF01


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

E64F is the checksum. This is the total of everything in the chip file from zero up until CF00


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

alright
Now what do we do with this tuner thing


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

*Watching and reading every thread 3 times......*

lots of info here. I wish this was OBD2.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

There isnt alot of difference between OBD1 and OBD2


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

> =TIGninja;68043946
> One thing to keep in mind is there is another map that is either a 1 by 12 or 1 by 16 that runs full throttle timing.............we need to scale the MAF on to give the flow readings
> .


 the full throttle 16x1 (wot) timing map is what i have shown in the picture ignition wot map1 there is three in total but only one seems to be in use :thumbup: 

what do you mean by scale the maf to give flow readings ?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> the full throttle 16x1 (wot) timing map is what i have shown in the picture ignition wot map1 there is three in total but only one seems to be in use :thumbup:
> 
> what do you mean by scale the maf to give flow readings ?


Oh ok I see it there now  I cant really see it on my netbook but the rest of the maps look ok. Just keep an eye on knock.

By MAF I mean the other scale RPM/MAF on your tables. When you do it properly the MAF reading on your tune map will match what the vag com reads.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> By MAF I mean the other scale RPM/MAF on your tables. When you do it properly the MAF reading on your tune map will match what the vag com reads.


ok i see what you mean but i think its rpm vs load  on the timing and fuel maps with obd2 you can log mass air flow g/s 
but with obd1 i can only log load% and i have no idea of the factor and offset for it
but i dont need to know the factor to tune with data tracing :thumbup: i can see what area of the map is being use at the given load point and just see what the wideband says then adjust the map to the desired afr while driving.
if any one is intrested i will try get some vids up of this in action.. there is three fuel maps in use out of them all one is the idle map1 then it switches to the part throttle map1 as you cruise around then when you put the foot down it goes to the wot fuel map at about 60% tps so you have to tune the fueling in three maps


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> ok i see what you mean but i think its rpm vs load  on the timing and fuel maps with obd2 you can log mass air flow g/s
> but with obd1 i can only log load% and i have no idea of the factor and offset for it
> but i dont need to know the factor to tune with data tracing :thumbup: i can see what area of the map is being use at the given load point and just see what the wideband says then adjust the map to the desired afr while driving.
> if any one is intrested i will try get some vids up of this in action.. there is three fuel maps in use out of them all one is the idle map1 then it switches to the part throttle map1 as you cruise around then when you put the foot down it goes to the wot fuel map at about 60% tps so you have to tune the fueling in three maps


Well I will be showing everyone how to set it up in g/s like you are saying. I havent bothered trying to log this either  but I know it can be done. I dont have alot of time right now but it is on the list. I dont have a car here to confirm alot of these things so alot of this I am doing from memory. The goal here is to get people going and then let them take over with the development.


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

Any news - I'm still following along....


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

IHookItUuup said:


> Any news - I'm still following along....


Actually yes. I just bought a winter beater and it just happens to be a OBD1 2l


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Sweet!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm a hair's breadth away from ABA'ing my daily B3 syncro wagon...this would be handy info .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

G/S?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> G/S?


No time yet. I will see what I can do over christmas vacation.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Gotcha :thumbup:.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

So did anyone download that OBD1 aba bin I posted before they shut down the link? I need that file and we will get a working TP XDF going today.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've got it. Does this work?

http://rapidshare.com/files/448973893/ABA_OBD1_AE.bin


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

awsome lets get our party on. I will post up a file to let you guys tune later.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Sweet


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Open up your winols demo and load the chip file you have downloaded.This is what you should see.And move to the same location as I am at ~ B124










You need to have your winols set to 8bit and 255 right here otherwise none of this will make sense.










These are main fuel tables. There is a high throttle and a low throttle map that in this case is 16/16. There are other sizes of tables and after you have learned to use this you can actually learn how to make them whatever size you desire (I personally think the sizes are fine unless you vary your power band waaaaay up the range from stock).The location of the two maps we are working on is B124 and B248

The main part we want to look at now is the obvious area between the maps. This is the area where the scale of the maps are laid out (RPM and MAF in this case).If you take your curser and just write down all the numbers you see from left to right like this. Here are my chicken scratchings. Notice the curser is at B247 which is the last value we need for the layout. You are writing down the data numbers on the bottom next to the curser location.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is a nice example with pretty colors. Thank the guys at http://www.motronic.ws/ for this one.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok the first number we have is 57.57 will always be used in this ecu as a RPM point. So 57-16-5-5-5-10-5-5-5-10-5-15-10-15-15-101

Lets look at the last number (101) this is out last RPM point for this perticular map.The formula to make this number into something that makes sense is this 256-101* 40= 6200rpm. This is out last RPM point.The number before the 101 is the next RPM point (15). to figure out the RPM we take the 15 and mulitply by 40 for 400rpm. We subtract 400 from 6200 and we get 5600 for the secont to last rpm point. You have to continue to do this until you get all RPM point for the map.

800/1000/1200/1400/1800/2000/2200/2400/2800/3000/3600/4000/4600/5000/5600/6200

And there is half of it.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok im a dumba$$. Its been a while :laugh: instead of 255 use 256 for your RPM calc. :facepalm:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I wondered about that, lol. I've been using 256...you had me worried I'd ufcked up :laugh:.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok you guys I cant remember the scaling for the MAF and I cant find it. Its in grams per second and its probably 256-86=170 for the last number and then -10,-10,10 for the rest. Im waaaay to lazy and dont have a vag com to check it for me.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Yep, the max value is 170, and the smallest is 20.

20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 132, 150, 160, 170.

ready for the next lesson coach .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok I have low and high throttle timing and fuel maps,full throttle fuel map,and what looks to be a idle fuel map.


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## VR6_Idaho (Sep 2, 2001)

Keep it up. Thanks for the efforts. :thumbup:


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## tomslik (Nov 1, 2006)

I am so happy this thread is alive again. I still wish I knew how to do what I want with what your saying here. Need more fuel. LOL.


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## losacker (Aug 27, 2010)

i was referred to this thread and so far it has delivered! :thumbup: thank you and i cant wait to see more!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

There are some pretty good XDFs here for OBD1 VR6. I have not tested them yet to confirm they are correct but they look good. Tonight I will make a couple of changes to these and we will go through what is what.

http://tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm


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## losacker (Aug 27, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> There are some pretty good XDFs here for OBD1 VR6. I have not tested them yet to confirm they are correct but they look good. Tonight I will make a couple of changes to these and we will go through what is what.
> 
> http://tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm


do you happen to have any for an obd1 2.0? and is the bin you were working on a vr6 or 2.0? sorry im new at all of this and really tryinng to learn all i can. thanks!:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

losacker said:


> do you happen to have any for an obd1 2.0? and is the bin you were working on a vr6 or 2.0? sorry im new at all of this and really tryinng to learn all i can. thanks!:thumbup:


The bin we are working with is a 2.0.We will have a XDF by the end of the week.


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## losacker (Aug 27, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The bin we are working with is a 2.0.We will have a XDF by the end of the week.


thank you. this is great info!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> i find tunerpro only corrects the checksum upon saving the altered bin . then as you say you have then upload the saved bin to the emulator again then all is good no checksum fault code


You will have to upload the bin every time you restart the car otherwise you will get a checksum code. You should be able to tune the car without check engine light wit emulator because the ecu only checks on startup.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Looks like when I get back from vacation I am going to be tuning a OBD1 VR6. I will try to document the tune as much as I can while its done.


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## losacker (Aug 27, 2010)

2.0 XDF files anyone?


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## Yoss (Apr 24, 2005)

:subscribed: waiting for someone else's hard work to save me money on my eventual turbo project


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

Yoss said:


> :subscribed: waiting for someone else's hard work to save me money on my eventual turbo project


This is why no 'real' information is available....

People just like this....they cannot/will not contribute anything, yet want to results just handed to them.

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've got an xdf with all the maps, but they are not labeled. It was easy to do, all I had to do was figure out how to read hex, figure out where the main map list was in the bin, translate all that into a beta xdf, buy an emulator to do map tracing to start finding out which piece of code does what, and then start hunting down information on the factors and offsets for the axis values. I'm not quite ready to share it, since I'm not willing to take the heat if something goes wrong, or spend all day answering questions about stuff I'm still learning . TIGninja is kind enough to fill in the gaps, so patience is key .

I will say though, it's out there if you look for it . It's way better to know WHY you're doing what you're doing, than it is to have it spoon fed. That's what TIGNinja is trying to do.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> I will say though, it's out there if you look for it . It's way better to know WHY you're doing what you're doing, than it is to have it spoon fed. That's what TIGNinja is trying to do.


This is mostly why I have put this out there in the manner I have. It is to get people to load the files into the software and look at it atleast. I will have more time when I get back from my vacation. Internet is very sketchy here in the philippines.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Just got a 94 Jetta 2.0 for a daily driver. Can't wait to test this stuff out .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Project canceled due to a few morons on this forum. 

I come here and offered this to everyone for free and get nothing but disrespect from this forum.Why should I continue to offer this to these people is what I keep asking myself.

There is enough info in this thread to tune OBD1 already so use it and be happy. There wont be any development of the fun things like launch control and other things because I am so annoyed by this forum I just dont care.


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

TIGninja said:


> Project canceled due to a few morons on this forum.
> 
> I come here and offered this to everyone for free and get nothing but disrespect from this forum.Why should I continue to offer this to these people is what I keep asking myself.
> 
> There is enough info in this thread to tune OBD1 already so use it and be happy. There wont be any development of the fun things like launch control and other things because I am so annoyed by this forum I just dont care.


thats cool... have fun ttyl


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)




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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

ignore the morons carry on with it here http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?46659-How-to-remap-a-VR6 this is the old school way but much easier now with real time data trace


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

Have you guys made any ~real progress yet?

Play with larger MAF's, Larger injectors.... ect?


-Jeffrey Atwood


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

Jefnes3 said:


> Have you guys made any ~real progress yet?
> 
> Play with larger MAF's, Larger injectors.... ect?
> 
> ...


 yes i have my obd1 running with 630cc injectors with a rock steady 14.7 afr at idle and cruise 
11.8 afr at wot .. i have a violent bucking on transition to boost that i need to work on .if i just go wot it pulls threw and the bucking is gone


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

i have advanced the timing in the transition area and altered the axis on what i believe is a butterfly angle map (tps ) a similar looking map that i found in a obd2 vr6 damos this has improved things but still not 100% it just bucks intermittently now when i hit the pedal it at different load points but only seems to do it above 25psi .my turbo is full t4 60:1 70a/r hotside . i am finding it hard to concentrate with the seat belt round the laptop and trying to keep eyes on the afrs etc things happen so fast the ride is like being on a roller coaster


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok alot of people are confused as to how this actually works so I am going to explain it. 

This is a chip burner. This little unit reads and writes the chip info off your chip thats in the ecu right now. You take the chip out of your ecu and stick it in this little thing and download the file off the chip. 

http://www.moates.net/burn2-chip-programmer-p-197.html?cPath=94 

Then you open up you open up your tuner pro RT and load that chip file in the BIN file. The chip file is actually a BIn file anyways. Then you load in the XDF you either made or downloaded and this will give you the ability to edit the chip file (tune the damm thing). 

Then you use the tunerpro to load the file into an emulator. This is the best one because it runs a data trace thats compatible with tunerpro and will show you what the ecu is looking at in the chip file. Basically an emulator emulates the chip and it gives the ecu the info just like the chip would. This gives you the ability to look at what the ecu is looking at and also gives you the ability to change this information while the car is running. 

http://www.moates.net/ostrich-20-the-new-breed-p-169.html?cPath=95 

Any questions? 

And yes these are a little spendy but every honda tuner in the country has both of these things and all you need is a laptop with the software downloaded and the XDF and they can do the rest on the dyno. The only thing you should end up paying for is a $10 chip and dyno time.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

is there any obd1 vr6t guys with a chip burner on here. i am going to put my 36# injectors back in and do an open loop turbo tune based on idle part and full maps with 15.5afr idle and cruise i will upload the bin when i am done :thumbup:


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> Ok alot of people are confused as to how this actually works so I am going to explain it.
> 
> This is a chip burner. This little unit reads and writes the chip info off your chip thats in the ecu right now. You take the chip out of your ecu and stick it in this little thing and download the file off the chip.
> 
> ...


This is bad ass. I would love to rip and tune ecus. This would help my business a lot:thumbup:


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## tomslik (Nov 1, 2006)

come on peeps keep this thread alive!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

tomslik said:


> come on peeps keep this thread alive!


Its time for someone else to do some of the work. I have added enough to get everyone started. There is enough info here to set up the main ignition and fuel tables.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

With an XDF from the TunerPro site, there are "Idle maps" and "Part throttle maps" for fueling. The two maps under "Idle maps" are labeled as Fuel WOT Map 1 & 2. Are these maps used for WOT or idle? What determines which the ECU is pulling from?


Also - something else I haven't understood. Obviously the RPM values are down the side, but across the top there is only 1, 2, 3, 4. What do these numbers represent? Load? Inputs from sensors? 

Also the numbers within the graph itself, do these represent injector dwell times?

I'd love to start tuning my own car, but I don't feel yet feel comfortable with my level of understanding of this.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I think im going to fire this project back up.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

It would be appreciated. :thumbup:


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

hmmm maybe I need to go OBD 1 instead of OBD1, it will be less stuff for me to buy since my motor is an OBD1 and Ive got some of the parts


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've been working on this a lot lately, and have made a few discoveries that might help. 

First off, it's useless to try to tune something unless you know how the ecu thinks. I think I've figured some of that out. I did some data tracing on my 94 Jetta the other day, with the O2 disconnected. In the OBD1 hex, the 3D maps either have the descriptor 30 or 3F, plus 39 (RPM). 30 is throttle position and 3F is MAF. WIth the O2 disconnected, at idle it uses a small idle fuel MAF map and the main 16x16 throttle position map. At WOT it uses a 16x16 WOT fuel MAF map, and the main 16x16 TPS map. I'm assuming it does the same at part throttle, but I didn't get the chance to trace anything in that area. There are 4 identical 16x16 fuel throttle position Basically, the fuel calculation uses throttle position and MAF airflow (and RPM) to come up with the base fuel value. Knowing this, it's a little easier to see where changes should be made. I have scanned the M2.9 section of a factory fuel injection manual and put it in the thread I have on Ecuconnections.com (XDF Connection forum), and there's a chart that shows exactly what M2.9 uses for each of the steps in the fueling/ignition paths. 

On the fuel maps, the decimal value 128 means 14.7 afr, or 1 lambda. Motronic is used to thinking in Lambda, but I prefer the raw numbers. This makes it easy to pick out the fuel maps at a glance. I'm waiting for my VAG-COM cable to arrive so I can watch the translated values while tracing with Tunerpro.

I have no idea if there is an injector scalar in this code, as I can't disassemble it, and wouldn't know what I'm looking at even if I could. Now that the mapping model makes some sense to me, I can see how tuning for larger injectors should work. I've decided to tune my own car (ABA block/counterflow head, mitsubishi 14b, 310cc injectors) on OBD1 motronic to test myself and see if I'm close. Won't be until spring though .

Essentially, tuning OBD1 is not hard at all. The equipment needed can be purchased for under $200, and all the software/files are free. I have an ongoing thread on ecuconnections.com in the 'XDF Connection' forum that I'm documenting my findings in, and posting the Tunerpro XDF updates as I figure out new stuff. There are 186 tuneable maps, although only a fraction of them are labeled. The rest would really need to be worked out via disassembly of the code, but IMO, most of them are not necessary to touch for 90% of the tunes required.

Anyway, hope I haven't dredged up a dead topic, but this project really needs more brains to get the ball rolling. There's a long way to go, and the more people working on it, the better :thumbup:.

[edit]Here's the link, but you'll need to register. http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=813
My SN there is BrendanSmall.


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## tomslik (Nov 1, 2006)

It seems to be a dead topic cause no one has picked up tuning this system . I have SOME brains and have access to $200 but I still have NO clue how to actually tune this system from reading all the stuff here and at ECUconnections.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I haven't given up, and once I'm more certain in how it all works, I'll be posting up a 'DIY-tune' XDF for Tunerpro, and a write-up/tutorial on how to do it. There's a lot of stuff in the thread on Ecuconnections that isn't relevant for everyone, it's mostly just about what I've found out about M2.9. 

It's a shame that the VW community has lost the 'diy' spirit in favor of 'over-the-counter' generic chip tunes. There isn't a single other group of 'brand-loyal' folks out there that use over-the-counter tunes for their cars. The idea of a single chip tune working for every turbo setup befuddles the Honda crowd, because they realize that each car is different in some way. Each brand has someone who's released freeware to tune their cars with, Crome for Hondas, Nistune/ROMedit/etc for Nissans, etc etc etc. We've got $900 Maestro suite, and it's only good for M5.9.2 and up...IF you can figure out which maps you need to touch. There's only ~500 or so...and very little in the way of information about them that's in layman's terms.

M2.9 is more complex than digi-1, but in some ways, it's more straight-forward, since it follows the standard Motronic patterns. BMW, Porsche, Audi, Vauxhall, Opel, etc, all use Motronic-based ecus, and share a lot of the same software models. I'm no code expert, and a lot of the stuff involved has me scratching my head sometimes, but I want to see this through...even if only 1% of the VW crowd puts it to any use .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Making some good progress lately. Sorted out a few mistakes I had made in my initial transcribing from hex to XDF. Now the idle/low part throttle/high part throttle/WOT fuel maps are clearly identified. I'm working on tracing a few other things, warmup enrichment, etc.


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

tomslik said:


> come on peeps keep this thread alive!


bump.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Found some goodies...more info soon.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok, now I have some time to explain what I've found. Finally .

First off, I did a bit of tracing after work, and stumbled on two things that I really wanted to find. Both of them were complete accidents...but I'm not going to complain! I found the Idle Speed vs. ECT table (the actual one, not the ones I had labeled as such, but weren't). It's a really small table, so I completely overlooked it, but for some reason I took a peek at it today and started playing with the values. I set the traced cell to 255 and the idle shot skyward and started bouncing hardcore. I'm super stoked, I hate the 840 rpm idle my car has when warm.

Second, I was playing with a 3D table that looked like a fuel table, but was a bit different than I thought it should look. I zeroed it out, nothing happened. I left it zeroed and moved on. When I revved the car up to see if there was any tracing on the new map I had chosen...the car stumbled and died! Found one of the acceleration fuel maps . I have to populate the two new maps still, as the axis' are blank currently, but I can do that tomorrow.

Third...I think the descriptor '37' isn't air temp, as I thought it was. I think it is for 'closed throttle'. I found the idle timing map, but the descriptor isn't 30, it's 37. As soon as the throttle is cracked, it moves to the main 16x16 ignition table. I hooked up the VAG-COM and started playing with the values...sure enough, I found the idle ignition map. The values in tunerpro and on the Vcom matched perfectly. I really don't think 37 means air temp anymore, so I have some more testing to do. I'll disconnect the air temp sensor and see if the cell changes to a different column on the map, since it was getting 40-50*C at idle, and with the sensor disco'd, it defaults to 80*C. I'm hoping it doesn't change, because then I'll know for certain that it's for closed throttle.

I also made a new table for the XDF . It's a lookup map, displaying all the maps from the master lookup table in the bin. Fired up the car, and clicked 'trace'. This is what I got....

http://www.youtube.com/user/Broke4speed#p/u/0/jv55WOTKnFg

This video shows all the maps the ecu accesses during 23 seconds of operating temperature idle (with O2 disconnected). I've already marked them in the latest revision of the XDF, and will start trying to figure out their purposes soon.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Lot of good info there, wish I had more time to sit down and really get into this.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

If anyone has been downloading the XDF files I've been uploading to my Ecuconnections.com thread...I put up a new version this morning that has all the new goodies (and some housecleaning, lol). 

The basics are there for a custom tune (fuel maps, ignition maps, idle maps), and I'll work on creating a 'DIY tune' version of the XDF, which will remove all the stuff that isn't needed/known yet. I'll write up a bit of a 'how-to' as well, although the one thing I've learned about Motronic is that there are many different ways of accomplishing a goal, so it would definitely be worthwhile for folks to experiment and see how it works out .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Over the weekend I found the idle speed vs. engine temp map, idle speed w/AC on, idle ignition timing map, and an acceleration pump map. Coming along well now .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

'37' is most definitely air temp .

Did some WOT tracing last night, to figure out if my thoughts on the fuel model were correct. Yep, bang on! The two fuel maps being used at any given time are going to be the base 16x16 throttle position map, and the relevant airflow map (idle, low part throttle, high part throttle, WOT). Ignition is far simpler, in that it uses only one map (at least in NA trim), the 16x16 ignition map. That map only goes a bit further than where the MAF maxes out in NA trim, leaving me to wonder if there is a timing map for beyond that point. Won't find out until I get some boost on there I guess. I suppose it's not crazy to think that the ecu uses the last column of the map in that case...but I'm not going to assume anything, lol.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

An update that will eclipse everything I've managed to find to date is coming...

I found the hex code to disable the CEL light for the various blink codes! The code is still there, but the light is not triggered. It's not a perfect solution...but it's still a way of making that damn light go away! I guess doing it this way leaves the CEL active for actual issues, but removes it for certain deleted equipment . A VW without a CEL...amazing, lol!

I'm figuring out how to add this functionality to the XDF. I'll post it as soon as I can, promise.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

When you find the injector scaling LMK. Nice job BTW.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Thanks! 

I'm still looking for that scalar, almost beginning to think that there isn't one due to the fact that the fuel calc is done with at least two 3D maps at any given time. The throttle position fuel map could essentially be a 16x16 injector scalar, in my thoughts anyway. I've been able to peek at a TT 440cc/3" MAF file, and they make some big changes to the TPS fuel table.

Might be a day or two for the new additions to the XDF, it's getting too busy at work to not work anymore .


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Subscribed:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm still looking for that scalar, almost beginning to think that there isn't one due to the fact that the fuel calc is done with at least two 3D maps at any given time. The throttle position fuel map could essentially be a 16x16 injector scalar, in my thoughts anyway. I've been able to peek at a TT 440cc/3" MAF file, and they make some big changes to the TPS fuel table.
> 
> Might be a day or two for the new additions to the XDF, it's getting too busy at work to not work anymore .


There is an actual injector pulse calculation somewhere in that mess that contains the injector size as a constant. If you narrow down where it is I will check the disassembly and confirm.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Gotcha, I'll keep my eyes open .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

RE: injector scalar. Would it be '80' in hex? That would make it 128dec, which is lambda 1 (14.7 AFR), which would be what the calcs would be based on, no?

RE: MIL light discovery: Doesn't work . I'm now putting all my efforts into finding the DTC area.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> RE: injector scalar. Would it be '80' in hex? That would make it 128dec, which is lambda 1 (14.7 AFR), which would be what the calcs would be based on, no?
> 
> RE: MIL light discovery: Doesn't work . I'm now putting all my efforts into finding the DTC area.


Im pretty sure that would be no. The 80 hex is a value of lambda but not of the injector scale. I would look for info on the injector part number and see if you can come up with a size in cc and look for that number.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

There was an older BMW motronic version that actually used lambda 1 as it's injector scalar. The idea being that the calculations were designed to provide 128dec/80hex at lambda 1 with the chosen fuel injectors. It used '1' as a trim point basically. Bigger injectors were 1.

The injectors on my 94 jetta are 280 150 955, which comes up as 167cc. 167 is B0 in hex...and it pops up a LOT, lol. There are a few places where it's grouped like B0 xx B0 xx B0, and quite a few single incidents. Short of going through and changing them all one by one...it could get tough to figure out which one it might be.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Do you know how to look for jumps in code?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

There's a section of hex that's '80 B0'...and in IDA pro, it seems to be part of something other than just single bytes. I'm 0 for 2 though, lol. It's at 8D7A.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Do you know how to look for jumps in code?


Not really, I've been doing all this by pattern/blind luck, lol. I have IDA pro, and I've got it set up for the 8051 processor/256 RAM...but it's all greek to me .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Not really, I've been doing all this by pattern/blind luck, lol. I have IDA pro, and I've got it set up for the 8051 processor/256 RAM...but it's all greek to me .


Look for something pointing to the Maf transfer location.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm far too fried to try to figure out IDA pro right now, lol. I'm going to have to sleep on it. Thanks for the tips man .

Maf transfer area like the one in the XDF I'm working on? A100?


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## tomslik (Nov 1, 2006)

Ah far too fried, thats something I CAN relate to, and I don't even smoke. I wish I could help :banghead:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Im pretty sure that would be no. The 80 hex is a value of lambda but not of the injector scale. I would look for info on the injector part number and see if you can come up with a size in cc and look for that number.


Hmm, unless you know something about the scalar and this is a test (  ), I don't think that's how it works. Unless M2.9 used 16 bit at some points, if the injector scalar was B0/176, the highest it could go would be 255. I really think that the scalar (if there is one) would be related to 80/128 in some way. If the code used '1' as 176cc @ 14.7 AFR (like req fuel), then by going to '2' (FF/255), you could double the injector size instead of just adding 79cc. Then again, the code could be set up to only go as big as 255cc, and all the aftermarket stuff works around that. Who knows .

I really wish there was some documentation about this version of motronic out there...it would make this a lot easier .

On another note, I found another part of the idle speed target puzzle last night. There's a 5x1 map based on battery voltage that's at 84 dec from 7v to 13v, and it's used at idle. By multiplying that by 10, you get 840, which is the stock idle. If you bring this table up, the idle rises. If you try to bring it below 840, it won't go...because the idle target table based on ECT seems to stop it. If you want more idle, change both of them the same (the aftermarket chips do). I've updated the xdf and uploaded it to ECUConnections.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Hmm, unless you know something about the scalar and this is a test (  ), I don't think that's how it works. Unless M2.9 used 16 bit at some points, if the injector scalar was B0/176, the highest it could go would be 255. I really think that the scalar (if there is one) would be related to 80/128 in some way. If the code used '1' as 176cc @ 14.7 AFR (like req fuel), then by going to '2' (FF/255), you could double the injector size instead of just adding 79cc. Then again, the code could be set up to only go as big as 255cc, and all the aftermarket stuff works around that. Who knows .
> 
> I really wish there was some documentation about this version of motronic out there...it would make this a lot easier .
> 
> On another note, I found another part of the idle speed target puzzle last night. There's a 5x1 map based on battery voltage that's at 84 dec from 7v to 13v, and it's used at idle. By multiplying that by 10, you get 840, which is the stock idle. If you bring this table up, the idle rises. If you try to bring it below 840, it won't go...because the idle target table based on ECT seems to stop it. If you want more idle, change both of them the same (the aftermarket chips do). I've updated the xdf and uploaded it to ECUConnections.


What your looking for should be something like. 

injector size(128*128*128*128/ # of tables used (4 in this case))=injectors pulse width. 

The 128s (or whatever is in the tables) would be what the ecu returns from the tables when it looks up the info.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Interesting. I wish I knew more about IDA Pro, because it's all just crazy numbers and letters to me currently. When you say table, are you referring to internal calcs or could there possibly be a 4x1 map with 128s in each cell that could work (one per injector)? I know in the XDF there are a few single-row maps with nothing but 128 in them, but I don't think the car reacted when I changed them. Right now, if by MAF transfer area you are referring to A100ish, nothing seems to point there if I have my processor settings correct in IDA.

I guess I'll see if there's a decent IDA Pro manual out there that I could glean from. I know there's an ME7 plugin floating around, perhaps I could take a peek at it and learn.:snowcool:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Um, have I just been being obtuse, or is the reason for there being 4 versions of each airflow-based fuel and ignition map is because there's one for each cylinder?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Um, have I just been being obtuse, or is the reason for there being 4 versions of each airflow-based fuel and ignition map is because there's one for each cylinder?


Thats just an example of how the injector PW calculation should look.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

No, really, I think they have four of each fuel/ign map based on 3F is one for each cylinder, lol. All the documentation I have on M2.9 states it can do cylinder-by-cylinder ignition retard, and it's definitely sequential injection/ignition...so why wouldn't there be four identical maps for fuel and ignition? If I had one of the new AEM 4-channel widebands, I'd see what's up, lol.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> No, really, I think they have four of each fuel/ign map based on 3F is one for each cylinder, lol. All the documentation I have on M2.9 states it can do cylinder-by-cylinder ignition retard, and it's definitely sequential injection/ignition...so why wouldn't there be four identical maps for fuel and ignition? If I had one of the new AEM 4-channel widebands, I'd see what's up, lol.


Lean it out until it misfires.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Again...so simple it's embarrassing I didn't think of it. Thanks dude!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Haha...there has to be a limit to how many times one guy can be wrong . I suppose they're all learning experiences, but it's getting silly. Only one of the 4 maps is traced at any given time, usually the same one every time. Changing the others does nothing.

I also went through the hex while the car was running and tried changing a few of the B0s to FF. Not much happened except the car died ever so often, giving an ECU error code. Changing the hex back to B0 allowed the car to fire right back up. It wasn't even a gradual stall, it was very abrupt, lol.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Haha...there has to be a limit to how many times one guy can be wrong . I suppose they're all learning experiences, but it's getting silly. Only one of the 4 maps is traced at any given time, usually the same one every time. Changing the others does nothing.
> 
> I also went through the hex while the car was running and tried changing a few of the B0s to FF. Not much happened except the car died ever so often, giving an ECU error code. Changing the hex back to B0 allowed the car to fire right back up. It wasn't even a gradual stall, it was very abrupt, lol.


That means you found something. you should read the code and see what it says.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'll try to replicate it this weekend and make note of where the killer bytes are.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

No updates. I put a hold on the killer byte hunt to try to learn a bit more about some of the aftermarket files I have here, and see if my assumptions of how the fueling model work are correct or not. So far it all seems to jive, but the real proof will be when I get my car up and running. The wideband will tell all .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> No updates. I put a hold on the killer byte hunt to try to learn a bit more about some of the aftermarket files I have here, and see if my assumptions of how the fueling model work are correct or not. So far it all seems to jive, but the real proof will be when I get my car up and running. The wideband will tell all .


Do you have a wideband?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I have a wideband in my Rabbit, but the 94 Jetta I use as a daily is under a strict no-mods policy. Stock equipment only, self-imposed limit. The Rabbit is getting wired up OBD1 so I can boost-tune it with the stock ECU. If I didn't do it that way, then I'd have no money at all, for anything...and the wife would kill me .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> I have a wideband in my Rabbit, but the 94 Jetta I use as a daily is under a strict no-mods policy. Stock equipment only, self-imposed limit. The Rabbit is getting wired up OBD1 so I can boost-tune it with the stock ECU. If I didn't do it that way, then I'd have no money at all, for anything...and the wife would kill me .


Oh ok.


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

ttt. 

ran my car last night looks like im close to out of fuel at 20psi looking to add fuel uptop so i can push it to 25psi. 

im running the obd1 c2 chip, i have the ostrich hooked in and ready to go.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Email addy please? 
I've got something for you that will help a LOT .


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## Corsten (Sep 26, 2005)

if anybody wanted to code out EGR and SAI from C2 software to get ride of CEL you need to do the following

change
0x20aa
0x426a
0x441a
0x77a2
0x1ef6

all 135 decimal turns on egr and sai
all 199 decimal turns off egr and sai no fault code if removed plus adaptation works if egr unplugged
may or may not need ecu pin 10 wire cutting 
This is for EA/BM ecu

I did that to run c2 software on my Euro corrado 94 (after switching from a 6pin Maf to a 4pin MAF) - seems to be running OK, just need to figure out why do I get a lean at partial throttle into boost, could be TPS related...


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Email addy please?
> I've got something for you that will help a LOT .


The C2 files are edited to run one very large map instead of a small one. Your tunerpro file will not work with the C2 chip. They may not even be running full throttle maps anymore (I can remember).


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I modded the current xdf to reflect their changes .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Corsten said:


> if anybody wanted to code out EGR and SAI from C2 software to get ride of CEL you need to do the following
> 
> change
> 0x20aa
> ...


There is a throttle-position based fuel map . It's a 16x16 map, with some odd peaks and valleys in it. It's in all the M2.9 files, VR or 4cyl.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Uploaded a new version of the XDF to ECUconnections. NOT one modded for any aftermarket files, but the stock AE bin file. Thanks to the aftermarket stuff, found a new fuel map and two new timing maps .


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

re:fuel tables

these are all essentially correction maps.

like so: correction factor = (mapdata /128)
i.e if data = 128 you get zero correction (unity gain) ( x*1= x)

when lambda control is active , closed loop control drives to lambda =1.
modify injection correction such that live triming is near zero

under boost, turn off lambda control. 
modify injection correction to set afr where u want.

its funny to see old pirated software floating about, yet no one bothers ask me how it works. :laugh:
i dare anyone to ask c2 about it. :laugh:opcorn::laugh:

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

Jefnes3 said:


> i dare anyone to ask c2 about it. :laugh:opcorn::laugh:
> 
> -Jeffrey Atwood


I seriously lol'd. :laugh: :thumbup:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Jefnes3 said:


> re:fuel tables
> 
> these are all essentially correction maps.
> 
> ...


Cool! Thanks for the info! I've wondered which ones used that formula. 
I just never figured you'd answer, seeing as how we're kinda skirting around the fact that it's not completely kosher for us to peek and talk about someone else's work, when they make $ off of it.

Not to mention that (at least in my case), I have no disassembly background and have been doing it all the hard way. Drive, trace, log...drive, trace, log...study files, repeat. It's hard to ask how something works when you're not sure you'd understand the answer :laugh:.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Any info on descriptors?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

The byte descriptors in from of most tables is file specific....

i.e. RPM byte is different between file versions.

You guys are correct: there is no ~real documentation for these old files.
(there may be some docs, but I never found any)

I made these simpler to tune, by eliminating the various conditionals....
pointing fueling to a single map, instead of ~3. (idle, part, WOT)

Maybe I should have an Obd1 'tuning clinic'?

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

jeff that would be sweet man, thanks for talking to us about this, your the man, got some things
cleaned up on my car new plugs and wires, got the waste gate ported (i had mad boost creap)

hoping to get out tuning this next week.


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## heyfu (Mar 27, 2006)

Maybe I should have an Obd1 'tuning clinic'?

-Jeffrey Atwood[/QUOTE]

let me know when


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'd definitely be interested in learning more about how OBD1 'thinks'.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm currently trying to map out the g/s of the OBD1 MAF, so I can populate the x-axis of the MAF fueling tables. Since VAG-COM won't read g/s on OBD1, does anyone have a decent idle-to-6000rpm WOT datalog from an OBD2 ABA car? I've been searching for a while, and haven't managed to come up with anything but dead links from MkIV 2.slows. That's a different engine (sorta), so I don't trust those logs anyway.

A stock ABA will run nearly 90 g/s at WOT, which corresponds to the '150-160' columns in the XDF, but I don't have a formula for converting those raw x-axis numbers to reliable data.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

I can do maf voltage logs but using zietronix. I know there's a conversion for volts to g/s. I can also record vagcom and zietronix at the same time.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Volts could be good too. We'd at least know how much wiggle room there is for boost .


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

B4S said:


> I'm currently trying to map out the g/s of the OBD1 MAF, so I can populate the x-axis of the MAF fueling tables.



Dont waste your time.... 
The 'load' axis of the fuel table is specific load not direct from MAF.
This is a calculated number. Think of a 'perfect' n/a engine at WOT, load would be 100% all the time.
In real case we see 80-95% (at sea level) and the shape of the curve matches a dyno torque curve....


-Jeffrey Atwood


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Hmm, gotcha. I'll make some changes to my XDF. I initially thought it might be Calculated Load, but had no way of confirming it, so figured it would probably be MAF airflow. Made more sense to me at the time. 

Thanks for the info! Much appreciated .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Minor update. Burned a chip with a 1000rpm idle, waaaaaaay smoother now. Works like a charm . Of course I slapped it in a spare ecu...which had different lambda adaptation values stored in it. It was a rough, plug-fouling ride for a bit there, lol.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Jefnes3 said:


> i dare anyone to ask c2 about it. :laugh:opcorn::laugh:
> 
> -Jeffrey Atwood


 
Easy, you just don't get a response.  

Take money and ignore questions, they've got it all figured out.


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

And also not replacing brand new faulty products.. jerks.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Lets not turn this into a bashing thread, please . 

The lambda adaptation values smoothed out last night on the way home. It's a brand-new car now .


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Go! Go! Go!  

Im glad someone has taken an interest in this stuff.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Dude, this is the longest I've ever managed to stay with a project. Normally, I move on to something else after 6 months. I can't wait until I can actually tune for boost and work with a wideband .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Spotted a neat bit of info about the MAF transfer stuff on a BMW forum. I'll screen grab and post when I get home.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Nope, can't trust my results, not enough info...darnit.


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## qksilva (Aug 24, 2005)

This is awsome. I understand the basics of this whole process and I'd like to try this on my obd2 aba. Are the map definitions the same for obd2? What chip type does the obd2 have? My ecu doesn't seem to have a rectangular style chip it has a squareish one.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

OBD2 is a LOT more complex, the XDF file I've created is for OBD1 only . The definitions are completely different, haven't begun working on it due to not being able to run my emulator on those ecus. No live tuning or data tracing .


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## qksilva (Aug 24, 2005)

Cool. This all sounds like fun :thumbup:


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

B4S said:


> OBD2 is a LOT more complex, the XDF file I've created is for OBD1 only . The definitions are completely different, haven't begun working on it due to not being able to run my emulator on those ecus. No live tuning or data tracing .


 
he he :laugh: 

You need a PLCC44 adapter and 16-bit emulator. 
These are an order of magnitude more expensive than 8-bit stuff. 

I used to use an emulator for tuning obd2, but found it a bit flaky: any signal losses caused misfiring from a bad read or two. I didn't save a lot of time with it. Once my own process became more efficient burning chips is equally quick. (roughly) 


-Jeffrey Atwood


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Yeah, looked into the 16bit emulators...not gonna happen, lol. 

I figure I'll play around with OBD1 for a while, and maybe jump to learning about ME7x, since the info is out there. Don't think I'll ever get to tuning with it though, too easy to brick something if you don't connect properly. Just a learning project to keep my brain busy at work .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ha, might have stumbled upon a wideband for my daily. Fingers crossed my offer was good enough. Then I can dig a bit deeper into this .


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## ROBKIDWELL (Feb 28, 2007)

Complete noob here. Anyone have advice on where to start? lol. Everything from what equipment to get and where I should start reading up on tuning?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Did you read the thread?  

Hint: Post #42 has the equipment you need, and as far as tuning...it tunes the same as any standalone (megasquirt, etc). Tuning takes a while to learn, there's no real shortcut. Lots of reading, experimenting, etc. I like the tech section of the SDSEFI.COM website, some good articles there, and there are a few books about EFI tuning at Amazon that aren't bad. 

Motronic tuning is a bit different, in that it uses multiple maps for the fuel calcs, but in the end it's all the same result. The info is in this thread, or the one on Ecuconnections.com (linked earlier). The tuning software is freeware (TunerPro RT) and the XDF file needed to convert the ABA chip file into recognizable maps is in the ecuconnections thread as well. 

Depending on how cheap you can get the chip burner (I really like the one in post #42), doing custom tuning could cost as little as $95. That's a LOT cheaper than standalone. To do live tracing and real-time tuning, an emulator is needed (see post #42). That's $179...still cheaper than standalone . If you get the emulator, you don't need the chip burner.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

B4S said:


> Ha, might have stumbled upon a wideband for my daily. Fingers crossed my offer was good enough. Then I can dig a bit deeper into this .


 Got it . Zeitronix ZT-2, so I can datalog RPM, Boost, AFR, TPS, MAF voltage, etc. Comes with two sensors, two harnesses, the LCD display, all the goodies. A buddy is parting out his car so I vultured it before he posted, lol.


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## ROBKIDWELL (Feb 28, 2007)

I pretty much read the first page and freaked out lol. Thanks for the hints and direction. I read a couple things on the ecu connection site but it flew right over my head, Im sure it will be alot easier to understand once i can play around with it. I am one of those people who have a hard time learning ssomething just by reading it, so actually doing it will help me out alot.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Yeah, it all sounds intimidating, but getting your hands into it will help you see that it's really not that hard. The honda crowd have been doing this for a decade or so...which means that if they can do it, the VW crowd CERTAINLY can . 

I have no computer background at all, just a love of digging into stuff I shouldn't. You don't have to be a super smart genius guy to do this, but everyone thinks you do. Where there's a will, there's a way . That's why I'm working on the TunerPro XDF file. Once it's a bit further ahead, then all the hard work will be done and people can tune their OBD1 cars for less than the cost of standalone...AND still have turn-key cold weather driveability. I'll probably scale the XDF back a bit, remove the un-needed maps, and just leave the important stuff. So far, I haven't found a need for half of the stuff that's there. It'll be way less intimidating then . 

Easiest way to get your feet wet would be to download TunerPro RT from tunerpro.net, then get the XDF file from my ecuconnections thread, and the ABA bin file (the chip file). Open tunerpro, open the XDF, and then open the bin. Then you can play with all the mapping and see what's there .


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## ROBKIDWELL (Feb 28, 2007)

Im on my way to canada to kiss you lol. All joking aside, you are single handedly taking this by the balls and getting it out there for people. Kudos


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

@robkidwell what obd1 car are you interested in tuning and what is your ecu number?


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## ROBKIDWELL (Feb 28, 2007)

Its a 95 vr GLX. Id have to check on the ecu number


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Doh...this XDF won't work for the VR code, it's different . There are VR XDFs out there already though .


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## ROBKIDWELL (Feb 28, 2007)

Its cool cause i also have a 2.0 abat that im building too


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

ROBKIDWELL said:


> Its a 95 vr GLX. Id have to check on the ecu number


 the things you would need to buy are vag-com..ostrich2 and a wideband lamda and a laptop you may also need to desolder your original chip and solder a socket in there depending on the ecu some are already socketed..i have a good collection of original obd1 vr6 bin files so you may not need a chip burner to read your original chip but if you do willem programmers are selling for peanuts on ebay. basically you upoad the original bin file to the ostrich2 emulator through your pc usb then plug in the ostrich2 into your ecu to replace the original ecu chip. your car will run exactly the same with the ostrich2 in there as it did with the original chip there . but you will now have a usb cable in the cockpit from the ostrich2 so you can plug into your laptop and live tune your car with tunerpro rt @ idle or while driving 
i can help you with a basic xdf file for tunerpro to match your ecu so you can edit idlespeed /fuel/timing and revlimit etc . if you decide to start learning i will try and help you out


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

this is what the ostrich looks like plugged into the vr6 ecu i drilled a hole in my ecu casing for the usb cable


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

lets try understanding some basics how the obd1 m2.9 ecu works please correct me were needed and add what you know ..it is an adaptive ecu it will self adjust fuel injector pulses widths plus or minus 25% to reach the target 1.000 lambda/14.7 afr (128 decimal) with the 02 lambda and store these adjusted trim values inside the ecu .so looking in vag-com 1.000 is the centre point means no fuel trims being made and the adaptive range shown in vag-com is from 
0.80 to 1.20 anything out of this range will throw a fault code and cause the ecu to run really rich at idle. positive values above 1.000 means the ecu is richening the afr to reach the target 14.7afr and of coarse lower upto the max 0.80 the ecu is leaning the mixture. 
when the car first starts from cold it is in open loop mode ie no (02 active) and uses the base map also a cold start enrichment map geting its signal from the blue coolant temp sensor until it reaches above 50 degree celsius temp before the 02 becomes active 

what got me into this learning curve is my first vr6t i was using an old none read protected version 36lb v30 c2 file and kept getting a rich idle i had replaced every thing with no luck. the stock chip idled the 36lb injectors on the 95mm id maf no problem but of coarse i could not enter boost due to timing being too advanced on the stock chip. what i did for a quick fix to my problem was read the c2 chip and save the 64k bin file to the desktop then i made an xdf to suit the altered map adresses in there. i found how to disable the 02 in the software then i cleared the ecu memory of the already stored adapt values. next i got the car upto running temp and tuned idle and cruise areas of the map to 14.7afr then i re enabled the 02 again the adaptation trims then were near zero  im not knocking the c2 0bd1 tune as it seems to be hit and miss from car to car maybe id just tuned round a problem with my car ? but i was finally happy with the end results


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'd love to figure out how to disable the O2 trim in the ABA code, right now I just unplug the sensor when I'm testing. I tried looking for the same bytes you posted about, but it didn't pan out .


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

magner said:


> lets try understanding some basics how the obd1 m2.9 ecu works please correct me were needed and add what you know ..it is an adaptive ecu it will self adjust fuel injector pulses widths plus or minus 25% to reach the target 1.000 lambda/14.7 afr (128 decimal) with the 02 lambda and store these adjusted trim values inside the ecu .so looking in vag-com 1.000 is the centre point means no fuel trims being made and the adaptive range shown in vag-com is from
> 0.80 to 1.20 anything out of this range will throw a fault code and cause the ecu to run really rich at idle. positive values above 1.000 means the ecu is richening the afr to reach the target 14.7afr and of coarse lower upto the max 0.80 the ecu is leaning the mixture.
> when the car first starts from cold it is in open loop mode ie no (02 active) and uses the base map also a cold start enrichment map geting its signal from the blue coolant temp sensor until it reaches above 50 degree celsius temp before the 02 becomes active
> 
> what got me into this learning curve is my first vr6t i was using an old none read protected version 36lb v30 c2 file and kept getting a rich idle i had replaced every thing with no luck. the stock chip idled the 36lb injectors on the 95mm id maf no problem but of coarse i could not enter boost due to timing being too advanced on the stock chip. what i did for a quick fix to my problem was read the c2 chip and save the 64k bin file to the desktop then i made an xdf to suit the altered map adresses in there. i found how to disable the 02 in the software then i cleared the ecu memory of the already stored adapt values. next i got the car upto running temp and tuned idle and cruise areas of the map to 14.7afr then i re enabled the 02 again the adaptation trims then were near zero  im not knocking the c2 0bd1 tune as it seems to be hit and miss from car to car maybe id just tuned round a problem with my car ? but i was finally happy with the end results


 Goddammit I wish I knew how to do that. Any way that I could testbed one of those chips? Sounds like I'm in the same boat that you were.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

'dubber said:


> Goddammit I wish I knew how to do that. Any way that I could testbed one of those chips? Sounds like I'm in the same boat that you were.


 Download the hex editor at the beginning of the thread and then run a compare of the stock and modified files. Its all free but very time consuming.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

B4S said:


> Lets not turn this into a bashing thread, please .
> 
> The lambda adaptation values smoothed out last night on the way home. It's a brand-new car now .


 FYI: Qucikest way to reset long term trims is clear codes. 

-Jeff


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Jefnes3 said:


> FYI: Qucikest way to reset long term trims is clear codes.
> 
> -Jeff


 Yes I do that about once a month to keep her behavin'. So if there is only one map that c2 chips use, does it even utilize the two variable trim values that vagcom lists?


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

B4S said:


> I'd love to figure out how to disable the O2 trim in the ABA code, right now I just unplug the sensor when I'm testing. I tried looking for the same bytes you posted about, but it didn't pan out .


Ok, did some testing tonight. In regards to lambda trims, I would generally only see them at idle in the logs. The part throttle trim was always 1.0, and the full throttle would occasionally shift to ~0.9. Even after altering a few bytes that might be related to the O2 trims. I'm kinda stumped. I even made some extreme mods to the throttle fuel map that drove the lambda to ~1.2. It wouldn't trim then...but when I sent it to below 1.0 (~0.8ish), it trimmed back up to 1.0. 

Should I be testing from cold start, or is clearing the codes good enough? I'd love to be able to add O2 adaptation on/off to the XDF .


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

'dubber said:


> Yes I do that about once a month to keep her behavin'. So if there is only one map that c2 chips use, does it even utilize the two variable trim values that vagcom lists?


I modded the pointers to use a single fuel map.

All other functions are oem. still using both longterm trim values.

If you need to reset the ecu periodically to keep the car running correctly: fix the tune 

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

What I usually do is remove the O2 sensor and get the base tune in the car and then hook up O2 and watch the fuel trims.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

SUCCESS! 
With a bit of help from magner, I've found where to disable the O2 trims.  I almost missed it, because by setting the byte to 00, it does something funky. The stock value is 59 DEC, but setting it between 20-28 DEC disables all O2 function and adaptation. By going lower than that, the idle adaptation is engaged full time! By going to 00, the part-throttle adaptation becomes full time, and the idle adaptation shuts down. The funky thing is that the trims gradually drop to 0.000 etc, maxing out the O2 sensor and tripping a CEL. They're almost like fuel sliders on lemmiwinks, lol. 

There are actually two of these bytes that cause crazy behaviour, that I've found so far, but only one shuts off the O2 function. I'm going to test some more later in the week, and then update the XDF with the goods . BIG thanks to Magner for his ultra-scientific method .

I really need to get a wideband in the car. The O2 stays at 1.0 in VAG-COM, and all the adaptations do too, but I can't see what is really going on, fuel-wise.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ultra scientific method= you two goons with a POT and dataloging the emulator?  If not im curious what this method is.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Jefnes3 said:


> I modded the pointers to use a single fuel map.
> 
> All other functions are oem. still using both longterm trim values.
> 
> ...


What do you mean when you refer to pointers? Understand that I don't know much of anything about what's going on in this thread. Anyway, as far as fixing the tune, I want to get involved in learning but I know me and it will take me a long time but I want to get the car running smoothly sooner than that. The best I can do immediately is offer whatever rudimentary assistance I can to the real tuners in here like recording data and maybe they will come up with something plug and play, or I'm paying someone to tune a standalone option. But I also feel that there has to be a way to get the obd1 oem ecu and c2 software to jive with the turbo setup and have consistant drivability. I mean that's what I'm chasing, drivability.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

'dubber said:


> What do you mean when you refer to pointers? Understand that I don't know much of anything about what's going on in this thread. Anyway, as far as fixing the tune, I want to get involved in learning but I know me and it will take me a long time but I want to get the car running smoothly sooner than that. The best I can do immediately is offer whatever rudimentary assistance I can to the real tuners in here like recording data and maybe they will come up with something plug and play, or I'm paying someone to tune a standalone option. But I also feel that there has to be a way to get the obd1 oem ecu and c2 software to jive with the turbo setup and have consistant drivability. I mean that's what I'm chasing, drivability.


The pointers point the ecu to look to a certain spot for the information it needs.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Ultra scientific method= you two goons with a POT and dataloging the emulator?  If not im curious what this method is.


Go through IDA Pro picking out bytes at random, and changing them to see what happens :laugh:. I have no idea how to use IDA properly, but I got lucky with the first batch of ten bytes I tried.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

B4S said:


> SUCCESS!
> With a bit of help from magner, I've found where to disable the O2 trims. I almost missed it, because by setting the byte to 00, it does something funky. The stock value is 59 DEC, but setting it between 20-28 DEC disables all O2 function and adaptation. By going lower than that, the idle adaptation is engaged full time! By going to 00, the part-throttle adaptation becomes full time, and the idle adaptation shuts down. The funky thing is that the trims gradually drop to 0.000 etc, maxing out the O2 sensor and tripping a CEL. They're almost like fuel sliders on lemmiwinks, lol.
> 
> There are actually two of these bytes that cause crazy behaviour, that I've found so far, but only one shuts off the O2 function. I'm going to test some more later in the week, and then update the XDF with the goods . BIG thanks to Magner for his ultra-scientific method .
> ...


:thumbup: how much fuel did you burn off parked on the drive :laugh:
it will be more fun when you get the wideband fitted


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It wasn't too bad, I only went through 10-15 bytes before I found the 'right' one. Probably 30 minutes or so. The neighbors probably wondered why I was sitting in the driveway idling the car for so long...and why it was running so rough. Before I discovered the right setting, the car would barely idle, since my adaptation trims were going wild. They probably thought "The crazy guy next door is trying to get his POS Volkswagen to run right...I wish we had better neighbors" :laugh:.

I'm going to try again tonight, but this time set it to 28 right away before starting the car. Then maybe go for a drive and see if the O2 ever kicks in. If not, I'll do a little happy dance on the roadside before coming home :beer:.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

B4S said:


> It wasn't too bad, I only went through 10-15 bytes before I found the 'right' one. Probably 30 minutes or so. The neighbors probably wondered why I was sitting in the driveway idling the car for so long...and why it was running so rough. Before I discovered the right setting, the car would barely idle, since my adaptation trims were going wild. They probably thought "The crazy guy next door is trying to get his POS Volkswagen to run right...I wish we had better neighbors" :laugh:.
> 
> I'm going to try again tonight, but this time set it to 28 right away before starting the car. Then maybe go for a drive and see if the O2 ever kicks in. If not, I'll do a little happy dance on the roadside before coming home :beer:.


haha when i was learning to tune mine my niegbour said to my wife why dont he just get a new car :laugh:
btw. im called redeye on ecuconnections good luck dude


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ha, I knew you were familiar to me somehow. I've used some of your info from ECUconnections to get this far. The auto checksum update with TunerPro was a BIG help! I had tried but couldn't get the settings correct. Your post did the trick! .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

New version of the XDF has been posted on ECUconnections. The closed loop disable works great! I went for a 30 minute drive, and I didn't get a single O2 adaptation. VAG-COM doesn't even register the O2 signal anymore, so I'd imagine this means that it could be physically removed with no danger of throwing a CEL. No clue if it would work though.

It's important to note that the dec value of 28 disables the O2, and 59 enables it. Any other value sends the adaptations into fits, and bad things happen. I've included that info in the description of the scalar.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> New version of the XDF has been posted on ECUconnections. The closed loop disable works great! I went for a 30 minute drive, and I didn't get a single O2 adaptation. VAG-COM doesn't even register the O2 signal anymore, so I'd imagine this means that it could be physically removed with no danger of throwing a CEL. No clue if it would work though.
> 
> It's important to note that the dec value of 28 disables the O2, and 59 enables it. Any other value sends the adaptations into fits, and bad things happen. I've included that info in the description of the scalar.


Interesting choices of values. I would like to look at the code and see whats actually going on. I wonder if the value is the location of the jump to read O2 and one for dont read O2? What does your coolant temp read when the car is warmed up?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It reads 88-90*C. I was concerned that perhaps I was affecting the coolant temp input, but it logs fine. I also got worried that I was tricking the ECU into thinking it was at WOT all the time, but it's all good according to the datalogs. Being able to see what mode it's in (those mode bits in the label file) shows that everything is cool. 28 is a value that works, but I chose it arbitrarily. Anything between 21-30 seems to do the same thing. Anything below or above that range (up to 59) affects either the idle or part-throttle adaptation. There's a second bit that echos this behaviour, but it does not shut off the O2 like the one I used. There could be more...but I stopped hunting when I found the working one .

I went for a long drive last night, with closed loop off, and datalogged everything. The only problem I had was measuring blocks erroring out randomly, but that could be due to my cable or settings. Block 000 worked perfectly though, so I was able to log 30 min of highway/stop-go driving. All lambda-related data was stuck at 128 .


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Subscribed.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The more, the merrier! 

No updates recently, I've been focusing on the mechanical aspects of the boosted OBD1 swap into my Mk1. It's been too cold to do any wiring, but maybe this weekend I'll get to see if everything communicates and powers up properly. The harness needs powers/grounds, and the OBD port installed.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

B4S said:


> I went for a long drive last night, with closed loop off, and datalogged everything. The only problem I had was measuring blocks erroring out randomly, but that could be due to my cable or settings. Block 000 worked perfectly though, so I was able to log 30 min of highway/stop-go driving. All lambda-related data was stuck at 128 .


Been doing some thinking about this issue. The block that errored out was the Lambda channels (dynamic, part throttle, mid throttle, WOT). I think it was because there was no data at all coming in from the port, and after a while, VAG-COM just gave up 'listening'. Block 000 worked great because it sees more than just the lambda group. This is good .


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

B4S said:


> Been doing some thinking about this issue. The block that errored out was the Lambda channels (dynamic, part throttle, mid throttle, WOT). I think it was because there was no data at all coming in from the port, and after a while, VAG-COM just gave up 'listening'. Block 000 worked great because it sees more than just the lambda group. This is good .


do you have a wideband on order  i had no problems with heat running my vr full time open loop with a stable 15.5 afr idle.. cruise set @ 40 degree timing with 8.5.1 compression and 16.0 afr with no stumbles or timing pull anything leaner than 16.5 afr i could feel the car holding back on going again while cruising . idea was for fuel saving but i never noticed much as i was always in boost


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I have a wideband for my daily/test vehicle (94 Jetta), but I haven't picked it up yet. It's on a buddy's car that he's parting out. Right now, since the weather is getting nicer, I'm concentrating on my Mk1 project, since it's already got a wideband installed . It'll be the one I end up testing the boost tuning on. I'm running a DSM 14B @ 10psi, with stock 2.0 MAF and 358cc injectors. Should be fun enough in a little car . Just need to finish installing the harness and I can power it up for testing.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Anyone out there in VWVortex land have a bin file from an ECU that ends in AE that has an EGR? I picked up a non-EGR AE file and would like to isolate the on/off portion of the code .


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## Corsten (Sep 26, 2005)

Did you mean AE (2.0l) or EA (vr6)?

I believe I saw AE somewhere on ecuconnections forum


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

AE 2.0
I think I'm the one who posted the AE on ecuconnections, but I don't know if it was from an EGR or non-EGR car. I'm in Canada and some of our OBD1 cars didn't have the EGR setup on them, and some of them did, so I'm trying to find the same code of ECU from both cars, to make it easier to isolate. My daily 94 is an AH ecu, w/EGR, and the files are slightly different inside, so it's hard to tell where the control is.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It's ALIVE! 




 
I need to isolate the cranking enrichment, since it's very rich on startup. I also need to finish my downpipe, since right now I have no wideband. I had to tune by sight/smell/sound, lol. It works though, I'm close . I took 20% out of the main fuel table (TPS based), and 20% out of the idle fuel table, to get it to run well. I could probably just tweak the main table, but I won't know until I get my wideband in.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Did a bit of work on my own file today, as well as a 9A running OBD1. I can't get my car to operating temp yet (no coolant), but it fires up pretty well now. Still trying to isolate the cranking and warmup enrichment maps, cause my wideband is showing 9:1. It's pointless to try any tuning until it gets to op temp, but I'd sure like to lean out the cranking/warmup.

The 9A was bone stock, with an OBD1 conversion and a TT 2.0 chip. It had the old 2x2 diagnostic adapter, so I couldn't watch it with VAG-COM, but it was lugging rich at idle. The O2 was really working to the maximum it seemed. I bumped up the idle to 1000, and leaned out the idle fuel table (with the O2 disabled) a bit. It would also hunt for idle and occasionally stall, so I added some timing down low to keep it coming back up. It ran a LOT better with the modded stock file vs. the TT 8v chip, but my burner is dead so I have to set him up later. Maybe I can talk him into letting me take a peek at the TT file too .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Got some coolant in and got it up to operating temp...then ran out of gas, lol. Before that happened, I was able to play around a bit, but I am not sure how much of my results I can trust. I couldn't get it to idle happily below 12:1, but I am running an open dump exhaust a few inches below the wideband, so the results may be skewed a bit. I open-air-calibrated it yesterday, for a good half hour, but I'll do it again when I get some gas and start over. 

I tried a couple of turbo files I have, but they're for 3" MAF/440cc injectors, not quite a good fit for my 358cc redtops and stock 2.slow MAF.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Gee...think I found my issue...

00527 - Intake Manifold Temperature Sensor (G72)
30-00 - Open or Short to B+
00640 - Relay for Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor Heating (J278)
31-00 - Open or Short to Ground
00515 - Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor (G40)
30-00 - Open or Short to B+
00553 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
29-00 - Short to Ground

Looks like I have some checking to do. There's three limp modes right there, sigh.


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

my car on very cold start up wil go into the 9:1 range and will puff smoke pretty good, but you give it about 30 seconds idle comes up and it evens out slowly to 14-15:1


only problem i have found with mine is if you run to the store go in and come right back out its a little hard to start as in flooding its self out. 

but it does not help im using a 4bar fpr on a 3bar tune, will be working on that soon.


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## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

I won't pretend to understand a lot of this thread but really awesome to see guys doing some DIY tuning! I've got a C2 chip for my turbo but thinking this might be the way to go for the future... nice work! :thumbup:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

rabbitchaser said:


> my car on very cold start up wil go into the 9:1 range and will puff smoke pretty good, but you give it about 30 seconds idle comes up and it evens out slowly to 14-15:1
> 
> 
> only problem i have found with mine is if you run to the store go in and come right back out its a little hard to start as in flooding its self out.
> ...


Cool, I was wondering about 'stock' AFRs. My daily 94 does the same thing on really cold starts, rich rich rich...normal.

VAG-COM confirms there is no IAT signal getting to the ECU, since it's locked at 20*C but the sensor ohms are perfect when measured with a multimeter. The CPS could be simple, the timing might just be off a bit, have to check that tonight. If it's fine, I have a spare ABA dizzy to throw in. I might put the supect MAF on my daily and see if it throws a code there, and if it doesn't...then I guess I'll be running some continuity checks. I checked for power at MAF and CPS this morning, and they've both got what they need, so it's either going to be a signal missing due to wiring, or mechanical faults.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

rawk said:


> I won't pretend to understand a lot of this thread but really awesome to see guys doing some DIY tuning! I've got a C2 chip for my turbo but thinking this might be the way to go for the future... nice work! :thumbup:


In the end, it'll be like tuning standalone engine management. Get out the laptop, plug it in to the computer, and tune away. This is just the beginning .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

B4S said:


> Cool, I was wondering about 'stock' AFRs. My daily 94 does the same thing on really cold starts, rich rich rich...normal.
> 
> VAG-COM confirms there is no IAT signal getting to the ECU, since it's locked at 20*C but the sensor ohms are perfect when measured with a multimeter. The CPS could be simple, the timing might just be off a bit, have to check that tonight. If it's fine, I have a spare ABA dizzy to throw in. I might put the supect MAF on my daily and see if it throws a code there, and if it doesn't...then I guess I'll be running some continuity checks. I checked for power at MAF and CPS this morning, and they've both got what they need, so it's either going to be a signal missing due to wiring, or mechanical faults.


CPS and IAT codes gone. MAF code...well...this is an interesting one. I can't find any information on swapping OBD1 or 2 onto the counterflow head, but I sure do have some now . I was fighting a MAF code for short-to-ground, and VAG-COM was telling me that it wasn't seeing any MAF values at idle. It would sometimes jump to 0.5%, which would make the code go away, but it wasn't consistent. I checked for volts at the MAF, and was seeing 0.3v, but it would rise properly when revved. I tried every single test involving wiring, continuity, ohms, and even regrounded the MAF. Every test I did I duplicated on my daily driver, so that I had a baseline. Every single test came back with the proper values, and when the MAF was placed on my daily, it would hit 1.0v at idle like it was supposed to. When I leaned out the fuel map, it idled happily at 13:1...even though the reading was 0.5%.

The only variable was the counterflow cylinder head...which I suddenly realized flows a bit less than the crossflow. I put the MAF right at the TB, to eliminate the variable of intake piping leaks...same reading. Looks like I found a new variable, but it's probable that nobody else will ever do this swap, lol. The issue is that once the volts drop below 0.3, the ecu throws a code for short to ground, which puts it into limp. Not a huge deal, since once the revs come up, the code goes away. It could make for some lumpy idle every now and then, as the ecu goes into a limp/normal/limp cycle, lol.

I may crank open the TB idle screw, to bring the duty cycle down on the ISV and hopefully get more air through the MAF. It's already at 14% throttle position though, which kinda moves the ecu into the part-throttle fueling map instead of staying on the idle map. Not a big deal, just means I have to tune differently. At least everything is finally responding the way it should-ish .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

...or I may try converting to a GM 3bar MAP I have here. Since I've got access to the mapping, might as well give it a shot. It'd be cool if it works! Bye bye crappy Bosch MAFs .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I was poking and 'identified' 4 'new' maps. There are two maps that control the duty cycle of the ISV, it was fun playing with them and watching VAG-COM reacting. The other two maps are definitely related to fueling. The descriptor is '03', no idea what it represents, but they're both 1x6, and when you alter them, the car leans out or richens up. It seems a bit more dramatic when closed loop is enabled, but it still affects fueling with the O2 disabled. I'll add all four maps to the xdf, although their usefulness is still up in the air.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I took a closer look at the two maps that affect the fueling last night. They're definitely modifier maps, one goes from 128 (no correction) to 167 (rich) and the other goes from 128 (no correction) to 94 (lean). At idle, on a car at operating temp, they both trace in the first two cells. 128/118 in the lean map and 128/136 in the rich map. Not 100% sure what they do, but once the exhaust is on my Rabbit I can start playing around a bit more.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Sounds productive! I see other stand-alone tuners using the map sensor due to the limitations of the maf sensor, but then I also read that using a map sensor is not as accurate for some reason. 

But I think that the map reading would be smoother or more consistent somehow just due to the nature of the air that it is sensing. Seems to me that there are many more variables with turbulence in the intake vs. pressure in the manifold.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Definitely. I'm seeing that now, with my ABA/RV hybrid engine not pulling the same amount of air at idle and tripping the MAF cel for dead sensor. It's remarkable how much more air the ABA stuff flows, intake and head combined. I don't want to switch to the crossflow setup, and I've managed to get my current stuff to idle at .3-.4v, which is enough to keep it from cel'ing...but only barely, lol. I'm looking at MAP sensor converting, but I can't say for sure it will work or not. It's the same 0-5v output, but the maps will require some MASSIVE retuning due to the MAP sensor output being linear and the MAF output being a curve.

I'm also toying with the idea of a SMALLER maf housing, since my goal is sub 200whp. Some Fords had a 55mm housing, and anything can be modified to fit .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Got it all together and started the tuning. Due to my stupid idea of running the counterflow head, I've had to delete the ISV due to it allowing too much air in at idle. It would need HUGE fuel map changes to compensate, but when revved, it would be too rich and stall out. Until I figure out the ISV mapping, I've cracked the TB open a bit more and plugged the ISV port. I'm half tempted to swap back to the crossflow head, but that would mean a few more weeks of work (car time is not really available much  ).


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Well, I've got egg on my face right now. It was pointed out to me that my ISV issues may be caused by the fact the ISV is sucking unmetered air, instead of post-MAF stuff. Guess I have no excuse for that one :laugh:. I'll be fixing that tonight and starting over. I bet this solves a lot of my problems...


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Awesomeness .

Now that the ISV is working the CORRECT way (I'll never make that mistake again, lol), everything is completely fine. I did a bit of tuning tonight and got the code scaled for my 358cc injectors. Idling perfectly at 14:1, and starts at the wave of an oily rag . I've started making an XDF for the ABA that's only got the needed stuff in it, and it's what I used tonight. I re-addressed a few things, to make tuning simpler, and it works great!

I'll be uploading the 'tuner' XDf and modded stock chip file tonight and will post the link for anyone who wants to use them. This XDF will only work with the modded chip file, but the regular tuning files are also available.

The files:
http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=813&start=200


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

Wishing my car was OBD1 nao :laugh:, :thumbup::thumbup:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Narrowing down the warmup enrichment map possibilities, just have to let the car cool back down and try again. It was idling at 9:1, but I think the map I was using brought it up to 13:1...but by the time I tried to confirm, it was warmed up, lol.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Found them . Got my warmup to 13:1, but it's still a bit rich after cranking. Not a huge deal, tracking that next. I'll be redoing my files and hosting them on my webspace and tunerpro.net today .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Finished the abridged version of the XDF, which only has the useful stuff in it. I'm in the process of getting it uploaded to Tunerpro.net . All current files are uploaded to the thread on ecuconnections too.


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## mozcar78 (Nov 30, 2003)

ISV huh? LOL. Glad you got it sorted out. :beer: 

Thanks for posting that XDF.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Yeah, feel kinda stupid about that ISV thing. Not used to MAF-based efi I guess, lol.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok, surprising bit of news for the day: VW used M2.9 overseas in other 4cyl cars. Never would have figured that, since I figured all their Mk3s were digi-3 based, like the 2E in the Mk3 GTI, and the ABF. Someone on the ECUconnections forum posted a 1600cc version, file # the same as our North American ones, with the "AQ" suffix. All the maps line up perfectly in the XDF too! I'm going to examine it further tonight, maybe there's something else in there that might point to an injector constant (if it exists), since the 1600cc engine has to use smaller injectors than stock ABA, I hope .


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

:thumbup: People sweat the full euro-spec ABF setups for good reason!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The ABF stuff is digi-3, not M2.9. That's why I was surprised to see the smaller 8v engines using M2.9. There isn't a huge difference between files, in the mapping areas, so there has to be a spot that tells the ECU what injectors are being used. The problem is that the hard code/processor area is completely different, and we still don't know how the stock ABA ecu stores the stock injector data. No clue what to look for, since the majority of the code in that area is different .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Haven't started the car in weeks, so I went out, turned the key to acc so the wideband could warm up...reached through the window...VROOM! Idled happily at 9:1...then 10:1...then 12:1...and finally 14 . All the money I wasted on standalone EFI for my mild-power setups could have bought me an 89 Porsche 911 turbo, lol.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Ah I see, I just know that abf euro setup is better...


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It's better than the CIS-Motronic we got on our 16vs, that's for sure. No idea how it compares to M2.9. 

I can finally confirm that DIY boost tuning works great. I went for a dangerous test drive (87 octane, 10:1 compression, hot plugs, and 15psi by accident), and had no troubles at all. It misses a bit, but I'm not surprised really. Junkyard ignition components and hot plugs are a recipe for that. 

When I get back I'll probably stack some gaskets, just to be safe. My wallet can't afford a summer of 98 octane race gas. I'd love to give E85 a try, but the lone corngas pump in my area is an hour away .


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

So you are basically still utilizing all of the available oem fuel tables out of boost? How is the the "around town" drivability and what did you have to mess with to maintain it if anything?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Pretty much, just scaled for the larger injectors. I brought the TPS/Base fuel table down quite a bit, and the idle fuel as well, but the part-throttle fuel table is almost at stock levels. I brought it down slightly, but only about 15%. I haven't really tuned for boost yet, so I left the WOT table at stock levels, which seem to work well with the larger injectors. A stock ABA only uses about 2/3 of the available mapping space on the load tables, so there's actually room for boost . 

I can't comment too much on around town driveability, since today is the first time I've actually road tested it, but it was flawless . No stumbles at all, except for the ignition miss.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I have not looked at your XDF yet but I know you done good  Everyone needs to thank this guy. We have a few VRs coming up with large turbos and I will be reworking the XDF to use. I will post the xdf on tunerpro when I am done because there is interest in this.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Damn, thanks dude! Never would have considered trying this if it weren't for your old threads on HCVW ways back, so it's high praise .

I've been playing with a little java-based file that someone posted on ecuconnections that takes any 8-bit Motronic file and converts it to an XDF, including all the axis values. I've tried out the AE 4cyl file, and the EA VR, and it works perfectly. It creates completely raw files though, no descriptor values or anything like that. Populates all the axis' though, which takes a lot of the work out. Gotta run it from the command shell, so it's fiddly, but it does a good job .

I'll be home in a few days, can't wait to get back to work on the tuning!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

All the needed files have been re-hosted on my webspace. Found my login again .

No need to register, just click and download.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/OBD1 ABA DIY Tuning/


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

100km drive of great success! I had a few tiny hiccups, but none related to the tuning. My 20 year old starter (yeah, why didn't I change that?) doesn't like getting hot so I needed a boost after pulling over to do a bit of tuning, and there was a tiny stumble that might be related to my TB adapter. Outside of those two things, the car fired up and drove like a champ! It even takes it's boost great, except for the massive clutch slip. I have a six-puck sprung hub ACT clutch ready to go, but need to find time to do it.

All the tuning I did was with the above XDF/bin combo, and it works great, so if anyone is still reading...spread the word .


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## mk2golf14s (May 1, 2009)

good to hear that everything is going good.:thumbup:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've been driving the car a LOT lately, trying to sort out the miss/surge. Figured it out tonight, so I'll be able to get the chip dialed in soon. I have a clutch to swap in, and then I'll be at WOT non-stop for a few days...on a dyno, of course .

So far though, everything is great! Before the clutch starts to slip, the fueling is spot on.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

After a long struggle with a demon misfire, it's gone. I swapped to a G60 coil, and relocated the ICM out of the engine bay. I just got back from a drive where I treated the car like a rental...and all is well . Now I can finally get to the fine tuning.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Nice man, how user-friendly is the mapping program in terms of identifying and adjusting for problem areas with afr and timing (once you know about all of the maps)? Does it save afr and fuel/timing info and overlay it or something so you can go through it and sort of figure out where you need to make changes based on what it might show you or do you have to do all of that on the fly?


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## chinarockfish (Dec 8, 2009)

I can't remember if it was in this thread, or the one over at ecuconnections, but somewhere there was some talk of re-working the maps to switch from a MAF to a MAP. Has there been any work done on this? Could data logging both a MAF and a MAP sensor's voltage outputs along with a vag-com log of the MAF be enough to make up a conversion factor to replace the MAF map?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

'dubber said:


> Nice man, how user-friendly is the mapping program in terms of identifying and adjusting for problem areas with afr and timing (once you know about all of the maps)? Does it save afr and fuel/timing info and overlay it or something so you can go through it and sort of figure out where you need to make changes based on what it might show you or do you have to do all of that on the fly?


 Unfortunately you have to do it all on the fly. VAG-COM can log everything but O2/wideband data, so you can at least see timing, knock, CLT, IAT, TPS, etc. I'm trying to figure out a way to get the stock ECU to log a 5v signal, but it's not really my area of knowledge, so it's slow going . At least with VAG-COM you can log exactly where you are in any of the maps, which is a definite plus . 

As far as user-friendly, it's as simple as any other standalone tuning software. Everything is laid out in an easy to use format, and changes can be made in real time while driving. The software traces the map you're using, so you can see exactly where you are while tuning.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

chinarockfish said:


> I can't remember if it was in this thread, or the one over at ecuconnections, but somewhere there was some talk of re-working the maps to switch from a MAF to a MAP. Has there been any work done on this? Could data logging both a MAF and a MAP sensor's voltage outputs along with a vag-com log of the MAF be enough to make up a conversion factor to replace the MAF map?


 I was thinking about giving it a try, but I haven't decided on the best way to go about it. The software in the chip will need to be re-written a bit, so I'm taking my time and trying to figure out if it would be worth it to write an xdf/bin for a MAP conversion. I still have no idea if it would even work, lol.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Did a bit of testing with a MAP conversion last night. I got it to idle and rev, but it goes super lean when de-clutching and moving. I'm using 358cc injectors, but the values in the fuel tables (both TPS and Load tables!) are cranked up to nearly 200 just to idle! There's a lot going on in the code that would have to be changed I think, in order to get this to work...and I'm not a disassembler . Some other smart guy is going to have to take that and run with it if they want to convert, cause it's just not in the scope of my abilities to do so. I am going to try blow-through MAF though, that's next .


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Found the MAF transfer table, I believe. I've known of it's location for a while, but wasn't sure if it actually was what I thought it was. It's a very large 2D table, that doesn't exist in the master map listing. It has a huge impact on fueling when altered. The VR bin file has a similar table, with a different curve in it, so I think it really is the MAF table. I wonder what happens if you swap to the 3" MAF on a 2.0 and put that curve in place of the stocker. Also, I wonder if tweaking this could help with a MAP conversion?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> Found the MAF transfer table, I believe. I've known of it's location for a while, but wasn't sure if it actually was what I thought it was. It's a very large 2D table, that doesn't exist in the master map listing. It has a huge impact on fueling when altered. The VR bin file has a similar table, with a different curve in it, so I think it really is the MAF table. I wonder what happens if you swap to the 3" MAF on a 2.0 and put that curve in place of the stocker. Also, I wonder if tweaking this could help with a MAP conversion?


 Now go look in the code for the location of that transfer. LMK what you find.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Re-downloading now. Old laptop died  

I have the three main OBD1 ABA bin files, a copy of the generic XDF (in regular and compressed format), and a quickie document on how to work the xdf all up on my webspace. Here's the link: 

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/OBD1 ABA DIY Tuning/ 

If anyone downloads it, could I get some constructive criticism please?


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

bump.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It sucks to see this died two years ago. It's so damn easy to do, and way cheaper than buying an off-the-shelf chip...with way better results. I tweaked a friend's 3" MAF off-the-shelf tune today, with great success. Higher rev limiter, and better fuel curve. Took 10 minutes.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I am using your definition file to tune a car now  did you ever get your turbo stuff up and running?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Yep. I sold my Mk1 with a 10:1 ABA running 10 psi, with my own tune for the stock MAF...and it's still alive on that engine. The new owner has been driving it like he stole it for two years, and it's still kicking .

I've also done two ABA/16v conversion chips, both for boost, just this summer alone. A buddy was having a hard time passing emissions with the canned tune he bought from the usual suspects, so I went from scratch with a new file. Passed first try, and feels quicker (cause it's not running 10:1 AFR at WOT now). This is just so damned useful, it sucks more people don't give it a try.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

What size injectors were you running in yours? Shoot me a bin and save me some time


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

G60 greens, so ~26#. Stock MAF, ISV, etc. I can't remember if I had the O2 unplugged or not, but it ran great. Not sure it would pass emissions though, since pre-87 cars up here are exempt. The WB told me everything was great though.

Got an email addy I can use?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> G60 greens, so ~26#. Stock MAF, ISV, etc. I can't remember if I had the O2 unplugged or not, but it ran great. Not sure it would pass emissions though, since pre-87 cars up here are exempt. The WB told me everything was great though.
> 
> Got an email addy I can use?


[email protected]


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The car I have been working on has 500cc


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

3"MAF? IIRC I just kept applying a global correction to the throttle fuel map, but left it the same shape. Any fine tuning was done in the appropriate table. I'll send it your way.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Sent.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I am looking for the injector constant to we can run whatever injectors we want right now. There are a few other changes I will make to the XDF.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I gave up looking and just used the TPS table to scale for injectors.

Could I get a copy of the XDF when you're done? I haven't touched it in years, and suddenly have a few cars to tune, so I could use an updated version, lol.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

A couple OBD1 Mk3s came into my local pick-n-pull recently. I'm tempted to go pull a wiring harness for future swaps, since the OBD1 cars are starting to dry up around here. They charge by the foot, so it'd be a really cheap purchase, lol.


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## theprf (Sep 21, 2007)

My supercharged VR OBD1 distributor Corrado could use some tuning, too. I've tried an old GIAC chip and an old C2 chip. GIAC is too lean at full throttle and C2 is too rich at idle & low throttle not to mention being hard to start.
Since I am an embedded system developer with 20 odd years of experience with 8051 and derivatives I'm going to look up all these software tools and see what's going on. I used to have a Dataman S4 for in circuit EPROM emulation - about 15 years ago.
If anyone has a VR XFD that would be a super help to get started.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Do you happen to have the ECU # handy?
There are some coilpack VR XDFs available, but dizzy ones are not as common. The distributor cars use a slightly different version of Motronic, so a coilpack XDF can't be used.


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## theprf (Sep 21, 2007)

Luckily I wrote down the ECU# while I was changing chips. 021 906 258 DG

Edit: I have two other Corrados that are coilpack VR's. I don't have their ECU #'s handy.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm not too familiar with the VR ecus, especially the distributor ones, but if you could read the stock chip, I could probably set up a basic XDF that would allow you to tweak the fueling of the tuner chips you've got . Early Motronic is very simple to 'decipher' the map locations on, but I'd need to take a peek at the bin file to get started. Once you find the main map 'list' in the hex, then you can figure out where the fueling/ignition maps are quite quickly.


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## MOBOZO (Dec 14, 2009)

B4S said:


> I'm not too familiar with the VR ecus, especially the distributor ones, but if you could read the stock chip, I could probably set up a basic XDF that would allow you to tweak the fueling of the tuner chips you've got . Early Motronic is very simple to 'decipher' the map locations on, but I'd need to take a peek at the bin file to get started. Once you find the main map 'list' in the hex, then you can figure out where the fueling/ignition maps are quite quickly.


I have been playing around with motonic on my obd1 vr for a while now. I understand how to identify the tables but am having trouble finding a source for all the different header units. I have what I need for wot fuel and ignition mapping but wondering what else might be in there. Any ideas on where I could find this info?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

You have to register, but this is the exact link you're after: http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=123
It's primarily a Euro forum, but there is some good info for North American stuff too. A valuable tool for OBD1 work is a Moates Ostrich 2.0 emulator, because it allows you to tune and view in realtime.


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## theprf (Sep 21, 2007)

B4S said:


> I'm not too familiar with the VR ecus, especially the distributor ones, but if you could read the stock chip, I could probably set up a basic XDF that would allow you to tweak the fueling of the tuner chips you've got .


I can read out the stock chip later today or tonight. Send me a PM or something and I can email it to you.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

PM sent :thumbup:


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## MOBOZO (Dec 14, 2009)

B4S said:


> You have to register, but this is the exact link you're after: http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=123
> It's primarily a Euro forum, but there is some good info for North American stuff too. A valuable tool for OBD1 work is a Moates Ostrich 2.0 emulator, because it allows you to tune and view in realtime.


I think I looked at that but, I will look again,

thanks


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

B4S said:


> I gave up looking and just used the TPS table to scale for injectors.
> 
> Could I get a copy of the XDF when you're done? I haven't touched it in years, and suddenly have a few cars to tune, so I could use an updated version, lol.


I am going to do a little more work on it in the next couple of weeks.


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## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

Does anyone have a good Stage 2 Turbo file to start with? I've currently got C2, but thinking this might be a better way to go with the Ostrich emulator.


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## chinarockfish (Dec 8, 2009)

B4S said:


> Yep. I sold my Mk1 with a 10:1 ABA running 10 psi, with my own tune for the stock MAF...and it's still alive on that engine. The new owner has been driving it like he stole it for two years, and it's still kicking .
> 
> I've also done two ABA/16v conversion chips, both for boost, just this summer alone. A buddy was having a hard time passing emissions with the canned tune he bought from the usual suspects, so I went from scratch with a new file. Passed first try, and feels quicker (cause it's not running 10:1 AFR at WOT now). This is just so damned useful, it sucks more people don't give it a try.


If you have some time, I would really appreciate a copy of the bin for the ABA/16V conversion.

Kris


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I didn't actually do anything special to the stock bin, just did some tuning for their particular setups under boost. The tunes that were purchased were both waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too rich at top end.


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## chinarockfish (Dec 8, 2009)

Cool, I have been running megasquirt for a couple of years and I really like the flexibility but I would like to have a stock engine management for it should I decide to sell the car on. I have seen Techtonic's 16vABA chip, but I am loath to spend $125 USD for what is probably a slight deviation from stock. Their chip requires the stock injectors which seem kinda small for any performance gain. I was just hoping to cut down on the manual labour on may part  I guess I need to figure out how to translate map sensor maps to maf maps and scale for the red top injectors I am running. I bought all the hardware and blank chips to do the tuning when I found one of your original threads, but never really went down that path. It is good you see you back in VW's again.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

For an N/A ABA16v, or any 16v on OBD1, the only difference is going to be slight changes to the ignition mapping, really. The fueling is MAF-based, so it's pretty much going to handle itself. Tweaks might be necessary at WOT, but the O2 will handle everything else. Tuning a MAF setup is way easier than a MAP-based one, so you won't have to touch the fueling maps at all.

You could alter the TPS-based fueling map for the red tops you're running, if you've got a wideband. It might take a few tries to get it right, if you're doing it without an emulator, but by scaling the table up or down, you could easily use them. That's all I ever do for different injectors, and it works really well. Some companies make extreme changes to that table and leave most of the other maps alone, for their boosted chips, so feel free to use that to keep your redtops .

Yeah...I can't stay away from VWs, haha. I keep getting sucked back in.


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## chinarockfish (Dec 8, 2009)

This is some great advice! I really appreciate it. Does the tps map scale in a linear manner? I.e. 2x size injector = divide map values by 2. Or is it more subtle than that? I don't want to lean it out too much, or fill it up with fuel right off the bat Hahaha! I do have a wideband, so fine tuning it shouldn't be a problem.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It is definitely not linear. I learned that one the hard way, lol. Start with small changes (10%) and if it doesn't respond quickly, try something larger.
Be sure to make changes to the entire table, since that's one of the main tables that the ecu uses for it's fueling calculations. If you're lean/rich at WOT, then you'll have to alter the MAF/Load WOT fuel map slightly to fix that, which will leave the idle and part throttle fueling perfectly fine .


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## stevenaba (Mar 23, 2015)

hey, first I want to say thank you for your awesome work and posts. I downloaded the XDF and bin file from ecuconnections last year when I built my boosted Obd1 aba. I got it to run pretty good, put 10,000kms on the build with minor issues. I was wondering if you ever ran into problems with part throttle boost. If im in boost at part throttle the 02 trims will pull fuel back to 14.7 where I run at 11.0 AFR under boost. Under full throttle It works mint . Thanks


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## tomslik (Nov 1, 2006)

Glad to see you are still talking about this. I still haven't caught on but maybe I'll get there. Keep up the good work.


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