# Catastrophic clutch/transmission failure - need your opinion!



## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

I experienced some kind of catastrophic failure today while driving my 2002 1.8T (2.1L + GTX2867R). I have a Clutchmasters FX200 Kevlar clutch mated to a stock 5 speed manual transmission and Peloquin LSD. 

The catastrophic failure happened at normal highway speed and low engine speed. At about 3000 RPMs, I shifted from 3rd gear into 4th gear and began to accelerate with throttle wide open. As the tachometer approached 3000 RPMs, I suddenly heard what sounded like metal crunching and grinding violently from the engine compartment. This lasted for 3 or 4 seconds and then the engine reved to 5000 RPMs as if it broke free from something. 

I immediately noticed that I could only push my clutch pedal about 2/3rds the way down to the floor and then couldn't push it any further. I was almost sure I broke my bottom end (crank or rod). However, there was no evidence of oil or coolant underneath the car.

*Your opinions please as to what could have failed*. I assume it was the transmission but why would my clutch not fully engage? The car is at the transmission shop but I won't know until tomorrow or next day as to what happened.

This is a relatively new engine/turbo setup for me (2.1L + GTX2867R). I have no need to rev past 3000 RPMs during normal daily driving since I get a mountain of torque from as low as 1600 RPMs. I definately don't beat on my clutch or transmission. I break traction in 2nd and sometimes 3rd gear during sporty driving but that's about it. Clutchmasters FX200 never slipped once.

If it is the transmission, should I upgrade to stronger unit? Which one? Could this be something other than transmission?

Your input please!


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## ianroom (Mar 20, 2011)

if you cant push the clutch in all the way i would assume its a clutch problem. with the car off does it shift through all the gears?


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

My money is on the clutch...

The question is how much damage did it do to the bell housing and whats re-usable in your transmission setup.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

With the car off, it is stuck in either first gear or reverse. I can't disengage gear.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

I took a quick peak under car when it happened and everything look great. No oil or coolant leaking, no windows in the block. I hope it's the clutch and not the transmission.

EDIT: Anybody else? Clutch failure, transmission or possibly something else?


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## ianroom (Mar 20, 2011)

since its only reverse and 1st im still leaning towards a clutch issue, but theres only one way to find out, pull the tranny. its a pita but definitely doable, ive done it twice this month.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

ianroom said:


> since its only reverse and 1st im still leaning towards a clutch issue, but theres only one way to find out, pull the tranny. its a pita but definitely doable, ive done it twice this month.


I wish I had the time and the skills to pull tranny. Let me clarify that it is stuck in only one gear. I'm not sure if it's first gear or reverse. I tried to forcefully disengage from the gear into neutral (with engine off) but couldn't manage without breaking anything else.

Car is at local transmission shop. My mechanic would not take the car since he doesn't deal with front wheel drive transmission issues. I wanted to bring to Bill Schimmel, my engine builder and the one who installed clutchmasters clutch, but he's in Warminster, PA. Another 30 minutes south of here.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Sounds like something in the bellhousing let loose. Pull and inspect.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

STOICH said:


> Sounds like something in the bellhousing let loose. Pull and inspect.


Will hopefully know tomorrow. Sounds like everyone is pointing to clutch and not transmission. Just checked Clutchmaster warranty. Only 90 days. I had clutch installed in early 2009. That's 4 years ago. I drive less than 5000 miles per year (and avoid emissions testing in PA). 4 years of service ok for performance clutch?


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Transmission shop called today. He checked the hydraulics to the clutch and everything checked out fine. He didn't mention anything about the engine so I assume that's fine. He thinks it's an issue with the clutch and will drop the transmission tomorrow.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Not to come off as a dick but you can't just guess at these sort of situations you have to drop the trans

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


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## zrau17 (Apr 21, 2010)

Sounds like the pressure plate failed or the disc in some way. As already mentioned, only way to check is pull the trans and look at it.



I have a full 02M six speed swap you could upgrade to


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

zrau17 said:


> Sounds like the pressure plate failed or the disc in some way. As already mentioned, only way to check is pull the trans and look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> *I have a full 02M six speed swap you could upgrade to *


I might be very interested in this.


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## tirerub (Apr 29, 2010)

I had a similar issue in my daily beater mkiv, happened to be the clutch lever that is pushed on by the slave cracked on one side.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Not to come off as a dick but you can't just guess at these sort of situations you have to drop the trans
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


No doubt! Transmission will be dropped tomorrow. I will post the results. I never had any kind of major failure like this before. 

It sounded like this failure (see below). It was that bad. However, this guy blew his engine. Apparently, I must have blown either my clutch or transmission considering how my engine continued to rev after it was done chewing through metal.



EDIT: I used to laugh at this video^^^. Now, not so much.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

tirerub said:


> *I had a similar issue in my daily beater mkiv*, happened to be the clutch lever that is pushed on by the slave cracked on one side.


Just curious. Did that result in a catastrophic failure (metal on metal grinding)? Was the transmission and bell-housing servicable?


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

I got a call from the transmission shop earlier today. My Clutch Masters FX200 clutch sploded. Those of you who said it was the clutch get a free beer-smiley---> :beer:

I will post pictures of the damage a little later. Hopefully, some of you can help me figure out where it all went wrong! I don't want to put in another clutch just to have my 2.1L + GTX2867R setup rip it to shreads again.

I have the damaged clutch sitting in a box in my office. The kevlar disk material looks almost new after 4 years of moderate to (sometimes) heavy use. The problem appears to be with the supporting structure. The disk or something was completely sheared off. The bell-housing and everything else is fine.

I would like to stick with CM but am questioning how much back-bone these clutches have. I am considering upgrading to FX-whatever but I don't particularly like pucks. Less contact area with pressure plate doesn't make much sense. But, hey, if they are build stronger than I'll go for it.

Your opinions please.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Here are the pics of the damaged CM FX200 clutch. As you can see in the first picture, the four rivets holding the hub to the clutch plate completely sheared off.










The spring below the 'Napa' card was actually wedged onto one of the pressure plate fingers.

Notice the name "SACHS Made in Gremany"










It appears that all Clutch Master FX100 to FX400 clutches use sprung hubs riveted to the clutch plate. FX500 uses a solid hub riveted directly to the clutch plate. So, it wouldn't benefit me to go back to a riveted sprung hub since that was the point of failure in my setup. The only problem with solid hub clutch plates are that they are race-only and are generally not recommended for street use.

Does anyone run a solid hub clutch in their daily driver? Does it chatter. I'm considering a CM FX500 or perhaps an Unorthodox Racing solid hub clutch. Spec also makes solid-hub clutches. Feedback please!

Here's the Unorthodox Racing clutch:


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## ianroom (Mar 20, 2011)

seems like a lot of people are running the fx 400 with out issues


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

ianroom said:


> seems like a lot of people are running the fx 400 with out issues


The CM FX400 looks like it has 6 rivets on their sprung hub and not 4 like the FX100 to FX300. That might make a difference.


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

bent/cracked clutch forks


















I would highly reccomend getting a reinforced fork, even if this wasn't a failure mode. These things have a history of failing.

standard vs. Reinforced fork (standard on right):


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

rstolz said:


> bent/cracked clutch forks
> 
> I would highly reccomend getting a reinforced fork, even if this wasn't a failure mode. These things have a history of failing.
> 
> standard vs. Reinforced fork (standard on right):


Yeah. That makes sense. Were can I buy?


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

I believe IE makes a replacement fork...or at least someone does; it's red if I recall.

Not sure I'd be so concerned about the whole solid vs. riveted clutch hub. Just because the rivets tore doesn't mean the problem lies within the riveted hubs.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

STOICH said:


> I *believe IE makes a replacement fork*...or at least someone does; it's red if I recall.


Thanks. I'll look into that.



STOICH said:


> Not sure I'd be so concerned about the whole solid vs. riveted clutch hub. *Just because the rivets tore doesn't mean the problem lies within the riveted hubs*


What else could have caused the clutch to fail?


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm just suggesting that you don't completely throw out the idea of purchasing any disc/clutch with rivets. That disc could have very well be faulty or your application was simply too much for it.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

STOICH said:


> I'm just suggesting that you don't completely throw out the idea of purchasing any disc/clutch with rivets. That disc could have very well be faulty or your application was simply too much for it.


Thanks for the clarification. I had the CM FX200 for over 4 years. Most of that was with my previous setup (GT28R + 1.8L stock displacement). The CM FX200 performed flawlessly. I upgraded my setup to GTX2867R + 2.1L six months ago and the clutch held fine until the catastrophic failure. 

The new setup has a lot more torque below 3000 RPMs so I pound the crap out of 4th and 5th gear at lower engine speeds. My driving style is probably putting a lot of stress on the clutch and transmission.

I want to keep the car as drivable as possible and prefer to have a smooth engaging sprung hub clutch (with the rivets). I don't really like the idea of installing a solid hub race-style clutch that will chatter while engaging. However, I don't plan on spending my money on another clutch that is just going to fail on me.

The six rivet CM FX400 seems to be stouter and will probably give me some meaure of insurance against catastrophic failure. Not sure though.


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

I got mine from flipside customs

http://www.flipsidecustoms.com/?page_id=261&shopp_pid=3


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

rstolz said:


> I got mine from flipside customs
> 
> http://www.flipsidecustoms.com/?page_id=261&shopp_pid=3


I think I'm going to do this. Thanks for link.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Don't get the IE clutch fork: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-And-Build&p=78311169&viewfull=1#post78311169


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> Don't get the IE clutch fork: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-And-Build&p=78311169&viewfull=1#post78311169


Thanks. I read through briefly. I'll have to make a careful decision here.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

It looks like the FX200 was not intended for my application. I am leaning towards FX300 or FX400.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Interesting quote from Clutch Masters website: http://www.clutchmasters.com/index.php?module=site&action=GetPage&cat=11



http://www.clutchmasters.com said:


> *The Weakest Link*
> 
> In the battle of Man vs. Machine, whenever possible, *engineers build into any given mechanical system a point of failure, or weak point, which is designed to wear or fail*, therefore preventing damaging major components or even catastrophic failure of the entire system.
> 
> In the battle of Engine vs. Transmission, *the clutch is designed to be that weak link*. It is ultimately less expensive to replace a clutch than an engine or transmission. The challenge in building a high performance clutch is to build the unit for different intended heavy duty or severe applications which will hold the power; not break the transmission or internal engine components and retain an overall smooth operation of the entire system (whenever possible). This is the balancing act that Clutch Masters has perfected.


The clutch is designed to be that week link. You've perfected the balancing act. :what:

I just called Clutch Meisters and went over the details of my situation. He recommended the Stage 4 FX400 with Full Face disk (code=CL) to hold down the power.










Smoother engagement than 4 or 6 puck design and better suited for daily driver. Seriously considering this or the FX350 with tuffcrap™ material.


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## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

I've heard nothing but good things about the FX400 from everyone who uses it....minus one person who destroyed his.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

T-Boy said:


> I've heard nothing but good things about the FX400 from everyone who uses it....*minus one person who destroyed his*.


How that happen?


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## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> How that happen?


Single disc clutch + quattro + 2.0L+Large turbo = boom :laugh:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5581300-Build-Thread

You don't have AWD so no worries.


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## a4e3y5 (Jan 21, 2009)

I have clutchnet stg 3 which is full kevlar/kevlar disc n so far so good with some dyno trips n meets (400whp).. I'll say it is the equivalent of the fx300. Not a big fan of pucks.


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## VWBugman00 (Mar 17, 2009)

I too have heard very good things about this clutch, and it's the same that I'll be getting next. It's very streetable, and not too harsh. Get the light flywheel as well, and enjoy.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I didn't get 25K out of the CN Sprung 6 puck clutch and that was on a stock turbo setup.

I have had good success w/ their red 2X PP + a VR disc for 49K (so far), but I run a lazier turbo than the 2867r so i don't think it would be a good alterative.

There's plenty of feedback about the FX300s working on 3071r type setups.

I run the flipside customs reinforced clutch fork. There's one for sale in the trans classifieds right now.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

a4e3y5 said:


> *I have clutchnet stg 3 which is full kevlar/kevlar disc *n so far so good with some dyno trips n meets (400whp).. I'll say it is the equivalent of the fx300. Not a big fan of pucks.


I have my eye on that one too. The sprung hub looks a lot stouter than the Clutch Masters. How's the pedal feel? Is it a lot stiffer than stock clutch? Clutch Masters are known for having stock-like pedal pressure.


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

Just caught up on this again, 

Glad to hear that it wasnt a Clutch explosion rather a clutch dismantling, Everything else fine and useable?

If so, you're lucky as all hell! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

screwball said:


> I didn't get 25K out of the CN Sprung 6 puck clutch and that was on a stock turbo setup.
> 
> I have had good success w/ their red 2X PP + a VR disc for 49K (so far), but I run a lazier turbo than the 2867r so i don't think it would be a good alterative.
> 
> ...


Great info. I definately would like to stick with kevlar clutch vs. ceramic found on FX400. My pressure plate from FX200 kevlar clutch is perfectly smooth without any grooves or pitting that one might find in an organic or ceramic clutch. I could probably re-use pressure plate and flywheel if I had to. Probably going to replace everything just to be on safe side.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> Just caught up on this again,
> 
> Glad to hear that it wasnt a Clutch explosion rather a clutch dismantling, Everything else fine and useable?
> 
> If so, you're lucky as all hell! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Yeah. Very lucky. It was just the clutch hub shearing away from the clutch plate. Of course, there were springs and other metal pieces from clutch assembly all over the place. Other than that, bell-housing, flywheel and pressure plate were not damaged.

I guess it was designed to shear away at the rivets if too much torque is applied to clutch. That's the part that's bothering me. The FX200 held the power fine and did not slip at all. It is the sprung hub that is riveted to the clutch plate that failed. I don't really need a clutch with more clamping force than FX200. I need a clutch with a stouter sprung hub. The FX350 and FX400 seem to have 6 rivets instead of 4 used in FX100 to FX300. Not sure how much insurance that's going to get me. 

The clutchnet stage 2 and 3 looks a lot stouter IMO.


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## a4e3y5 (Jan 21, 2009)

mainstayinc said:


> I have my eye on that one too. The sprung hub looks a lot stouter than the Clutch Masters. How's the pedal feel? Is it a lot stiffer than stock clutch? Clutch Masters are known for having stock-like pedal pressure.


It is indeed beefy. I DD my car in stop n go traffic n my leg doesn't notice it he he. Joke aside, pedal feel is OEM. Im very happy with it n the way it responds. I have a 17lb. flywheel. I would have prefered the 20lb. one to minimize the shatter even more even though it's not that loud (im a lil anal)


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

For another option you can consider Bully Performance Clutch: http://www.bullyclutch.com. They are also an OEM manufacturer.

I've had great success with mine and in my opinion comparable if not better than the clutch net stg 3 I had which didn't last half as long as my bully.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Don® said:


> For another option you can consider Bully Performance Clutch: http://www.bullyclutch.com
> I've had great success with mine and in my opinion comparable if not better than the clutch net stg 3 I had which didn't last half as long as my bully.


Thanks, Don. I'll check that out. BTW, passenger-side SEM install was set back due to clutch failure.

EDIT: I like the Stage 3 segmented Kevlar disk. I wonder if it will hold the power. How's the pedal feel, effort with the Bully?


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

mainstayinc said:


> Thanks, Don. I'll check that out. BTW, passenger-side SEM install was set back due to clutch failure.


It's unfortunate this happened.

Good thing is, you'll have a new clutch to handle the increase in power


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

No doubt!


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

The Kevlar disk is nice actually and will definitely hold the power; great for daily driving.
The pedal feel is like a stock VR6 clutch which was a huge improvement for me.

Best you call them and speak to them about your setup :thumbup:

We've been dealing with them for years for a our drag cars and customer cars, even the high profile Porsche and Audi setups.

Here's a good application chart:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Don® said:


> The Kevlar disk is nice actually and will definitely hold the power; great for daily driving.
> The pedal feel is like a stock VR6 clutch which was a huge improvement for me.
> 
> Best you call them and speak to them about your setup :thumbup:
> ...


I really like the chart. The friction coeff. for ceramic is the best but it chews up your PP and FW. The kevlar performs significantly better than organic at all operating temperatures and would be a logical choice for my application. I'll give them a call per your suggestion and go over details of my setup.


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

You're right, I had the Clutchnet ceramic type and it chewed the pp and fw, typical though.

The RXX Technology is a patent pending technology that uses floating needle bearings that replace the cast pivot points. The rotation of these bearings helps reduce the pedal effort when the Bellville spring is being compressed. It also, during decompression of the spring, enables a more progressive and precise point of release.

Increasing a pressure plate's clamp force generally results in a stiff pedal. This adds additional stress on critical components such as thrust bearings and slave cylinders, etc...


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Flipside reinfoced fork: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5986694-FS-02j-02A-Flipside-customs-reinforced-clutch-fork


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

screwball said:


> Flipside reinfoced fork: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5986694-FS-02j-02A-Flipside-customs-reinforced-clutch-fork


 PM'd seller. Thanks.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

screwball said:


> Flipside reinfoced fork: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5986694-FS-02j-02A-Flipside-customs-reinforced-clutch-fork


 Sent payment to seller.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

mainstayinc said:


> Sent payment to seller.


 gdogg is a good seller :thumbup:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Your fork goes out today, dude.

I'm heading to the post office shortly to send out a quaife and 3.94 gears so ill get it sent!

:beer:

Buy my turbo kit plz


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm also selling a sweet usp motorsports metal slave cylinder conversion kit with stainless line for a Mkiv 02j car.

Brand new too unused 125$ shipped if you want to get rid of your flexible plastic slave cylinder.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

gdoggmoney said:


> Your fork goes out today, dude.
> 
> I'm heading to the post office shortly to send out a quaife and 3.94 gears so ill get it sent!
> 
> ...


 Thanks, man. :thumbup: for quick turnaround.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Don® said:


> For another option you can consider Bully Performance Clutch: http://www.bullyclutch.com. They are also an OEM manufacturer.
> 
> I've had great success with mine and in my opinion comparable if not better than the clutch net stg 3 I had which didn't last half as long as my bully.


 I just ordered a custom Stage 3 segmented kevlar clutch kit with special order Stage 5 pressure plate and steel flywheel. The Stage 5 pressure plate is required for more clamping force for use with segmented kevlar disk with some increase in pedal effort. The Bully clutches are 6 rivet design and should hold the power. Spoke with Frank at Bully/Ottawa Clutches to discuss my particular details. Great vendor.


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

mainstayinc said:


> I just ordered a custom Stage 3 segmented kevlar clutch kit with special order Stage 5 pressure plate and steel flywheel. The Stage 5 pressure plate is required for more clamping force for use with segmented kevlar disk with some increase in pedal effort. The Bully clutches are 6 rivet design and should hold the power. Spoke with Frank at Bully/Ottawa Clutches to discuss my particular details. Great vendor.


 Very good :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I would absolutely not recommend a Kevlar disk for anything if you are going to launch it hard. 

They glaze over extremely easily with some slipping and will never recover. In a quattro car, this is going to mean absolutely no launching it. 

Been there, done that- they drive really nice and last a long time until you slip the clutch a bit on a launch.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I would absolutely not recommend a Kevlar disk for anything if you are going to launch it hard.
> 
> They glaze over extremely easily with some slipping and will never recover. In a quattro car, this is going to mean absolutely no launching it.
> 
> Been there, done that- they drive really nice and last a long time until you slip the clutch a bit on a launch.


 Thanks. I never had an issue with slipping with my CM FX200 full face kevlar clutch which I had for 4 years. I was carefull to follow break in procedure when I first installed. I don't launch hard and slip clutch in first gear. I always "launch" with clutch fully engaged from a rolling start because I don't want to break anything or glaze clutch. Also, I would have no idea how to launch the car in first gear anyway since I can't control the power from a standing start.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

I agree with Pete. I've never had good luck with kevlar clutches. They all burn up quickly if you abuse them. When the work, they are super grippy and work well but never seem to have lasted with my driving style. That's why I like the semi metalic's like spec stg3+, the clutchmaster fx400 seem to work well even when launching the car hard, which I really like to do  So, stay away from full Kevlar if you want it to last and abuse it.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> I agree with Pete. I've never had good luck with kevlar clutches. They all burn up quickly if you abuse them. When the work, they are super grippy and work well but never seem to have lasted with my driving style. That's why I like the semi metalic's like spec stg3+, the clutchmaster fx400 seem to work well even when launching the car hard, which I really like to do  So, stay away from full Kevlar if you want it to last and abuse it.


 Thanks for the advise. A segmented kevlar clutch will be an improvement from my full face CM FX200 which never slipped once on me. I don't abuse my clutch as stated above. I always do a soft-launch in first gear which gets the car moving until I can engage second gear. Then, I hammer throttle and spin wheels to 70 MPH until I can engage third gear. Third gear gets good traction with some chirping of the wheels. 

EDIT: This is with stock IC and no W/M injection.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

The Bully Performance clutch arrived from Canada. 








. 

Segmented Kevlar disk secured with 6 heavy duty rivets to the hub. 










But... they sent the wrong disk! Reverse side has organic material which makes it a stage 2 disk and not stage 3. 










Frank at Ottawa Clutches will send the correct stage 3 clutch disk as his expense. He has been very helpful in this process and didn't hesitate to correct mistake. 

*Question:* Should I use the Sachs throwout bearing that came with this kit or should I buy a VW OEM bearing? I don't like the plastic I see on the Sachs.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

mainstayinc said:


> *Question:* Should I use the Sachs throwout bearing that came with this kit or should I buy a VW OEM bearing? I don't like the plastic I see on the Sachs.


 The VW OEM throwout bearing is $65.10 according to local dealer. It also has plastic components. Should I stick with Sachs TOB or go with VW OEM?


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

mainstayinc said:


> The VW OEM throwout bearing is $65.10 according to local dealer. It also has plastic components. Should I stick with Sachs TOB or go with VW OEM?


 Go with the one that you already have. SACHS is an OEM supplier anyway.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> Go with the one that you already have. SACHS is an OEM supplier anyway.


 Got it. Thanks. 

EDIT: I have a brand new Bully Performance Stage 2 clutch disk I can send to whoever wants it for just shipping (pictured above). Just the disk. Does not include pressure plate or flywheel. I recently shipped my slighly used GT28R to Alex (a-D0L0) for just $18.25 shipping. I have other stuff laying around my office I may want to get rid of in the future for just shipping so keep your eyes open for my posts. 



a-D0L0 said:


> the turbo came in today. thing is in amazing shape and i cant wait to get the necessary parts to run this on my car. i dont really know how to thank you, and i didnt think this would ever happen i thought you were joking around! thanks john, for helping me further my big turbo dreams!


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## a4e3y5 (Jan 21, 2009)

pm'ed for the disc...


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

a4e3y5 said:


> pm'ed for the disc...


 PM recieved. The stage 2 disc is yours! I'll calculate shipping and get back to you with the total tomorrow or Monday. 

-John (mainstayinc).


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

a4e3y5 said:


> pm'ed for the disc...


The Bully Performance Stage 2 clutch disk is still up for grabs if anyone wants it. User a4e3y5 never contacted me with a shipping address. It's already packed and ready to ship priority mail for just $12.50. It's a brand new clutch disk never installed. I am getting rid of it because I was sent the wrong clutch disk and am getting a free replacement. You pay just $12.50 shipping if you want it.


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## 03wolfy1.8t (Nov 2, 2010)

If your in ny I know of a good tranny guy


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

03wolfy1.8t said:


> If your in ny I know of a good tranny guy


Thanks. I'm in PA. I need to clear my office of car parts.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

APTuning is in PA, look them up :thumbup:


Sent you a PM


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> APTuning is in PA, look them up :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Sent you a PM


PM responded. Looks like you'll be getting the Stage 2 clutch disk since you were to first to respond!


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Power Plus I Pressure Plate from my Clutch Masters FX200 found a new home for just $12.50 shipping. This is the same PP used in the CM FX100 to FX500.










I'll post up other stuff as I clean out my office.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

I finally received the right clutch disk from Ottawa Clutches/ Bully Performance. This was after they sent me the wrong clutch disk a second time. I ended up paying for return shipping on the second disk even though it was not my fault ($40.00 ouch!). Normally, I don't pay return shipping under those circumstances.

Anyways, here is the correct clutch disk:










Frank at Ottawa Clutches did examime a picture of my failed CM FX200 and suggested that there may have been an installation error. One of the four rivets that sheared off between the clutch disk and the sprung hub was brown whereas the other rivets were bright metal where they sheared off (at least that's how it appears in the picture). He said that oftentimes a shop will drop the transmission and let the clutch disk hang during installation causing one of the rivets to become loose or even crack. Sounds plausible I guess.

Tomorrow I will run clutch disk along with pressure plate and reinforced clutch fork to tranmission shop and hopefully have car back within the week. I've been without car for I don't know how long and am very eager to drive car. Oh, yeah. I almost forgot I have to go through break-in procedure for kevlar clutch 500 miles I think. It might take me until end of summer with how little I drive car to get to that point.

Also, I decided to try and contact Bill Schimmel to install my passenger-side SEM, R32 TB, upgraded SMIC and other goodies (upgraded fuel pump etc.) that I originally planned to install myself. I just don't have the time to wrench on vehicle with other priorities looming.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

UPDATE: I just got a call from the transmission shop. The new clutch is installed and working fine. However, 3rd gear is completely missing from the transmission. So, I not only destroyed clutch but also something in the transmission.:banghead:

I am going over now to pay and test drive car for myself (with missing 3rd gear). Transmission shop will provide a quote to rebuild transmission ("...could be in the teens"). So, a better option is to simply swap in a used transmission. This could be an opportunity to upgrade.

Should I:
1. Get transmission rebuilt?
2. Swap in another 1.8T 5-speed?
3. Swap in 337 6-speed?
4. Swap in TDI 5-speed with taller 4th and 5th gears?

The most important priority is to go with the strongest gearbox. Which one is strongest? I am leaning toward trying a TDI swap. I know Vegeta has this. Feedback please!!!


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

By far the strongest transmission is the 02M bar none. The swap requires a totally new clutch/FW/PP, clutch line, axles starter etc. So, it's not a cheap alternative and I would definitely not pay for a rebuild, it's much more cost effective to replace with another transmission.

The most cost effective is another 02J, they can be had from a JY for 200-400 bux (let me know if you need one, I have some leads and can help track one down for you).


The TDI isn't stronger just has taller gears :thumbup:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> By far the strongest transmission is the 02M bar none. The swap requires a totally new clutch/FW/PP, clutch line, axles starter etc. So, it's not a cheap alternative and I would definitely not pay for a rebuild, it's much more cost effective to replace with another transmission.
> 
> The most cost effective is another 02J, they can be had from a JY for 200-400 bux (let me know if you need one, I have some leads and can help track one down for you).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. It looks like I will go with a swap instead of a rebuild. Since I am cheap bastard, the 02M swap would not be cost effective for me. That leaves either another 02J or TDI gearbox. Would my new clutch and existing Peloquin LSD swap over to TDI transmission?

EDIT: FAQ says that TDI is also an 02J transmission.



FAQ said:


> *O2J*
> 
> - Mk4, B5
> - ~100 lbs
> ...


Since they are both 02J, does that mean that clutch and LSD interchangeable?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

18T_BT said:


> The TDI isn't stronger just has taller gears :thumbup:



1-3 is slightly thicker and is treated on the TDi 02J per VW. i read it numerous times at the dealer when doing trans rebuilds.

the taller gears help though..but..it is VERY different...3rd will put you into scary 4th gear territory if you could rev to 10k lol


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

fx400 and up you have the option for the power plus 2 PP. i got it..it's nice on my 400. but i really love the 300 feel and such.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> 1-3 is slightly thicker and is treated on the TDi 02J per VW. i read it numerous times at the dealer when doing trans rebuilds.
> 
> the taller gears help though..but..it is VERY different...3rd will put you into scary 4th gear territory if you could rev to 10k lol


Thanks, Vegeta. I like the sound of slightly thicker 1-3 gears and treated. As far as gear ratios, I have a spreadsheet that calculates all the gearing for VW transmissions at different speads. IIRC, TDI 5th gear is close to 200 MPH at 6500+ RPMs.

I just got off the phone with owner of Peloquin LSD in GA and he said my existing LSD is compatible with TDI 02J. The last question is whether my 1.8T 02J clutch kit is compatible with TDI 02J. Anyone?

EDIT: 3rd, 4th and 5th gear are taller on TDI (see below).










EDIT:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Is clutch kit on 1.8T and TDI 02J interchangeable? If so, I think I'll go for TDI swap.


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

I used a TDI trans and although it was nice having taller gears, it was a little too much for a bigger turbo setup. I found it to put too much load and the drop in between gears was significant enough for re-spool shifting at 8500 rpm.

I blew the top of 3rd gear running away from Z06 :laugh:

In anycase, I now have my original O2J back in and very happy I made the switch back.

Albeit, since your car spools immediately, it may be an option. Just look out for excessively high EGT's.

The clutch is interchangable between the two.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Vegeta Gti said:


> 1-3 is slightly thicker and is treated on the TDi 02J per VW. i read it numerous times at the dealer when doing trans rebuilds.
> 
> the taller gears help though..but..it is VERY different...3rd will put you into scary 4th gear territory if you could rev to 10k lol



I find this very hard to believe, I am going to check with a master tech to see if he knows that for sure. Sounds strange they would treat and build a thicker input shaft for the TDI considering that gears 1-2 are not pressed like 3-5.


What final drive (FD) is in the car now? Do yourself a favor and keep a 3.94 FD or don't go below 3.65. After having numerous 02J's including a Eurospec 6spd one (which actually does have thicker input shaft) the 3.94 made the car so peppy and you were always in gear as soon as I stepped down to 3.65 the gears got longer (I trapped 120mph in 3rd gear) but it felt like it would take a while to build boost and re-build boost between shifts in comparison to 3.94. That may not be as big of an issue with your turbo size (as I run a gt30r) so you could probably be fine with 3.65. I'd agree with Don careful with your EGT's as well when you have long gears. I'd consider doing a TDI 5th gear for cruising purposes. You can do that with the trans in the car, just pop the cover off and get a puller in there :thumbup:


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

mainstayinc said:


> Is clutch kit on 1.8T and TDI 02J interchangeable? If so, I think I'll go for TDI swap.



all 02J's are 228mm disks
all 02M's are 240mm disks

they all use different Clutch/FW/PP/Bearing set ups/Axles/Axle cups etc between the two.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Don® said:


> I used a TDI trans and although it was nice having taller gears, it was a little too much for a bigger turbo setup. I found it to put too much load and the drop in between gears was significant enough for re-spool shifting at 8500 rpm.
> 
> I blew the top of 3rd gear running away from Z06 :laugh:
> 
> ...


Thanks for feedback. First through third gear are almost identical with third gear being slightly taller. This will bring me to 105+ MPH at 6500 RPMs at the top of third gear. Fourth gear would be more of a stretch but I think my setup would favor this gearing. The top of fourth gear would bring me to 147 MPH at 6500 RPMs.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

mainstayinc said:


> Thanks for feedback. First through third gear are almost identical with third gear being slightly taller. This will bring me to 105+ MPH at 6500 RPMs at the top of third gear. Fourth gear would be more of a stretch but I think my setup would favor this gearing. The top of fourth gear would bring me to 147 MPH at 6500 RPMs.


i just took the tdi out of out shop car in favor of a 02m .. with the tdi trans and the cars 8500 rpm rev limit the car was going 135 mph at the top of 3rd .. first and second were shorter than the original EHA trans .. almost closer to a 2 liter 02j trans gear ratio then 3rd was bog city then 4th was going to jail and 5th served no purpose at all .. 1800 rpm at 60 mph with 225 35 18's .. and not to mention because of the big rpm drop and not being able to get it into gear at anything above 7500 made the car crappy to drive 

with the 6 speed the car feels a lot better and way faster than it has ever felt .. and the best part it goes right into gear at 8500 with out lifting !!!!

my suggestion if you want to stay with the 5 speed is to find another early EHA trans with the smaller ring gear (so your diff will work) and swap on a tdi 5th .. .. 

or if you can find a mk4 vr6 02j trans just open it up swap your diff onto the vr6 ring gear then swap all the vr6 gears into your 4cyl trans case ..


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> I find this very hard to believe, I am going to check with a master tech to see if he knows that for sure. Sounds strange they would treat and build a thicker input shaft for the TDI considering that gears 1-2 are not pressed like 3-5.
> 
> 
> What final drive (FD) is in the car now? Do yourself a favor and keep a 3.94 FD or don't go below 3.65. After having numerous 02J's including a Eurospec 6spd one (which actually does have thicker input shaft) the 3.94 made the car so peppy and you were always in gear as soon as I stepped down to 3.65 the gears got longer (I trapped 120mph in 3rd gear) but it felt like it would take a while to build boost and re-build boost between shifts in comparison to 3.94. That may not be as big of an issue with your turbo size (as I run a gt30r) so you could probably be fine with 3.65. I'd agree with Don careful with your EGT's as well when you have long gears. I'd consider doing a TDI 5th gear for cruising purposes. You can do that with the trans in the car, just pop the cover off and get a puller in there :thumbup:


Thanks for advise. I test drove the car when I paid bill today. There are loose/broken parts in the transmission. It is basically trash as this point. I wish they diagnosed the transmission earlier so I didn't have to spend $800.00 on clutch install.

I wanted to do a TDI 5th gear conversion 4 years ago when I installed LSD until my engine builder quoted $350.00 just for the gear. As it stands now, transmission will have to be swapped out for another one. If I go with 1.8T 02J it will cost extra to rebuild transmission with TDI 5th gear.

I used spreadsheet to calculate how much RPM drop occurs while reving gear to 6500 and then shifting into next gear. 

For 1.8T 02J,
Idle to First: 5700 RPMs
First to Second: 2670 RPMs
Second to Third: 2123 RPMs
Third to Fourth: 1388 RPMs
Fourth to Fifth: 1216 RPMs

For TDI 02J,
Idle to First: 5700 RPMs
First to Second: 2858 RPMs
Second to Third: 2326 RPMs
Third to Fourth: 1854 RPMs
Fourth to Fifth: 1442 RPMs

Aside from maybe first gear, non of the TDI 02J gears are going to put me outside of my power band while shifting into next higher gear. The only problem I see is perhaps shifting from 3rd into 4th gear if I were to race beyond 116 MPH (3rd gear at 7200 RPMs). That would be more of a reach as compared to 1.8T 02J.

If you look at snapshot of spreadsheet above, you will notice that 4th gear MPH for the TDI gearbox is same as 5th gear for 1.8T gearbox. This swap would basically give me a 4 speed transmission with a very high top gear.

EDIT: I will probably test drive MK4 TDI to get better idea of gearing before I make a decision of this magnitude. My younger brother has 2003 Jetta TDI currently with blown engine so he's no help. Maybe I just take his TDI tranny and swap my broken 1.8T tranny into his car. He won't notice difference.:laugh:


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## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Do yourself a favor and go with a 02M swap. i went through 3 02J's before i said screw it and swapped in the 02M. All 3 of the 02j's stripped 3rd gear....and this was with a APR st3 (gt28r).


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

T-Boy said:


> Do yourself a favor and go with a 02M swap. i went through 3 02J's before i said screw it and swapped in the 02M. All 3 of the 02j's stripped 3rd gear....and this was with a APR st3 (gt28r).


I didn't know that the 02M was that good. I don't like idea of more gears with closer ratios but I have to seriously consider this option if it's a stronger gearbox. I definately don't want to go through another clutch and transmission. Thanks.


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

O2M swap hands down. stock clutch is stronger for one, gear box is stronger for two, shifter feel and pleasure is better for three...

I had an O2J go boom, T-Boy is local, luckily i listened to him and did it right the first time. Boat anchor the 02J and never look back.


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

I agree however, he'll have to get a whole new clutch set for the 02M.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

02M is hands down a better/stronger transmission, BUT if you don't plan on beating on your car and are mostly hwy driving with some pulls etc an 02J should be able to handle it. My current 02J (that has over 100K on it) has seen at least 40 passes with 350+whp/300+wtq on stock axles with a peloquin trapping 120mph. If you are road racing it's a totally different issue, as you have to account for heat cycling which doesn't happen as much in drag racing obviously.

The reason 02J's don't like me is because I like to launch my car hard on sticky drag radials or racing slicks and downshift hard into lower gears. AKA drive like an a$$hole  so, I always had a spare tranny at the house and would drive around with a spare set of axles in the trunk, especially when going to the strip.


If you do plan to change, check these threads:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-oriented)&p=64952223&viewfull=1#post64952223

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5902059-MK4-5-speed-6-speed-swap-parts-list

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4734247-parts-required-for-02j-to-02m-swap


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## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> I didn't know that the 02M was that good. I don't like idea of more gears with closer ratios but I have to seriously consider this option if it's a stronger gearbox. I definately don't want to go through another clutch and transmission. Thanks.


The 02M can withstand AWD (haldex)....so that should give you an idea (TT and R32 uses 02M). :thumbup:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

A lot of useful information here. I will review it when I get a chance. Thanks.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> 02M is hands down a better/stronger transmission, BUT if you don't plan on beating on your car and are mostly hwy driving with some pulls etc an 02J should be able to handle it. My current 02J (that has over 100K on it) has seen at least 40 passes with 350+whp/300+wtq on stock axles with a peloquin trapping 120mph. If you are road racing it's a totally different issue, as you have to account for heat cycling which doesn't happen as much in drag racing obviously.
> 
> The reason 02J's don't like me is because I like to launch my car hard on sticky drag radials or racing slicks and downshift hard into lower gears. AKA drive like an a$$hole  so, I always had a spare tranny at the house and would drive around with a spare set of axles in the trunk, especially when going to the strip.
> 
> ...


I checked out those links, thanks. The 6-speed 02M does look like it's built stronger than 02J. Also, shorter gear ratios will probably put less strain on transmission components.

I decided to contact APTuning in Lebenon, PA about 2 hours from me.

http://www.aptuning.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=8



APTuning said:


> If you are in need of any type of transmission repair, service, or upgrade; look no further than APTuning. We are a full-service transmission repair shop and while we specialize in manual trasmission rebuilds and upgrade we also offer service on automatic and DSG transmissions as well as the all wheel drive haldex systems.
> 
> Just some of the services we offer include:
> 
> ...


Does anybody have experience with APTuning?

Also, I will be at Kutztown Fold Festival with wife and child in July so that could be opportunity to drop off car for service or pick up new transmission and save $200.00 on shipping.

EDIT:









4th gear on 02M same as 3rd gear on TDI 02J. Also, I will probably lose traction in 3rd gear using 02M making gears 1 to 3 useless for me. Right now, only gears 1 to 2 are useless. Third gear hooks up nice with chirping tires.

Also, I don't like the fact that 2nd gear on 02M only brings me to 50 to 54 MPH with 02M.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

Are you going to consider strengthening any of the gears or upgraded syncro's?


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> Are you going to consider strengthening any of the gears or upgraded syncro's?


Yes, definately. I am considering upgrading to APTuning's 02J/02A Race Gearset made by G-Force Transmissions.










This gearset comes with several different gearing options using stock Ring and Pinion (3.94 final drive). The most popular comes with taller first and second gears specifially geared toward drag racing.

1st: 2.67 / 3.00 / 3.40 
2nd: 1.81 (1.93 if 3.40 1st gear is chosen) 
3rd: 1.32 
4th: 1.05 

Below is a comparison to stock gearing at 6500 RPMs (stock is in dark blue, 2.67 first gear is in yellow, 3.0 first gear is in purple).










The taller 3.0 first and 1.81 second gear would work well with my torque-biased GTX2867R setup. However, the taller 2.67 and 3.0 first gears are currently not available. In fact, they haven't been available for quite some time. The link below details some people's frustration with the situation.

http://forums.mwerks.com/showthread...or-GForce-APTuning-02A-02J-Gearset&p=79279527

I spoke with Ryan at APTuning this morning. He explained to me that their machinist made an error and delivered only the shorter 3.4 first gears on their last order. Consequently, APTuning's Race Gearset is on sale for $1,700 until they can get rid of most of their 3.4 first gear inventory. Ryan suggested that we can change the ring and pinion with the 3.4 first gear to get taller gears.

I put the numbers in my spreadsheet using R&P from 02J trans-codes EHA and EXE (3.65 final drive) and this is what I came up with (3.4 first gear/3.65 FD is in yellow, stock is in dark blue, 3.0 first gear/3.94 FD is in purple).










As you can see, first gear with this setup is slighly shorter than the 3.0 first gear with 3.94 FD and closer to stock. Since I don't drag race or launch hard in first gear, this would actually make the car more driveable on the street. More importanly, the 1.93 second gear with 3.65 FD is identical to the 1.81 second gear with 3.94 FD allowing me to attain 76 MPH in 2nd gear at 7200 RPMs. The taller second gear on this setup should help reduce wheelspin and help the car hook up better. Third, fourth and fifth gear are also taller which is nice for the highway.

As compared to VR6 corrado and MK3 VR6 Golf/Jettas (which use 3.39 FD same as MK4 TDI), this gearing is not as tall.










The only other modification that I am considering is the Pinion Shaft Brace for 02J which APTuning and USRT sells. This should help keep things from flexing so I'm told.










Tom from APTuning will call me tomorrow morning to discuss various options. The plan is to drive out to Lebanon, PA about 2 hours from me and drop off the car for diagnonsis/repair/upgrade of 02J. I no longer am considering a TDI or 02M swap due to the fact that I will have to pay for labor to remove and install current LSD and clutch into TDI tranny. Also, I cannot use any of these components on 02M not to mention the fact that 02M is 60 lbs. heavier than 02J plus has fork issues. Also, shorter gear ratio of 02M will cause more traction issues in first, second and possibly third gear.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

UPDATE: I just got the car back from Earlington Transmission. The car has been sitting there since last week until I could pick it up today. I checked the transmission code and it's an EHA which means that it already has the taller 3.647 R & P final drive (as compared to 3.94). Below is how APTuning race gearset with 3.647 final drive (yellow) compare to stock EHA (dark blue).










The APTuning Race Gearset is pretty close to stock ratios with first, third and fourth being slighly smaller. I think this would work out fine but I am considering using smaller R & P from VR6 to give me taller gears with the new race gearset (3.389 final drive). Here is how that would compare.










Since the first gear ratio is slighly smaller for the APTuning gearset (3.4) as compared to stock ratio (3.3), you will notice that first gear is about the same as stock. In fact, at 6500 RPMs, the 3.4 first gear gets me to 41.8 MPH as compared to stock 40.1 MPH (+1.8 MPH).

Second gear is a different story. At 7200 RPMs, second gear tops out at 81.5 MPH as compared to stock 75.4 MPH (+6.1 MPH). The RPM drop between first and second gear is +137 RPMs for the race gearset as compared to stock.

The RPM drop between second gear and third gear is less for the race gearset (-75 RPMs) as compared to stock. Same story with a third gear to fourth gear shift (-57 RPMs). Fifth gear RPM drop is higher for race gearset.

So, only second gear is slightly taller with APTuning race gearset with 3.389 final drive as compared to stock EHA gearing. I don't think my 2.1L bottom end with GTX2867R is going to be any more bogged down by a 137 RPM increase.

I did speak with Tom at APTuning this afternoon and he gave me a price on the complete job (parts and labor for worst case scenario). This includes: 

$1,700 for race gearset
$650 for 02A 1st/2nd gear hub and syncros (they are stronger than 02J)
$300 for labor
$950 for refurbished transmission in case mine is toast inside.
*$3,600 TOTAL.*

I also inquired about Lower Pinion Girdle (Pinion Shaft Brace) which he said is a good idea.
+299 for APTuning's version or +149 for USRT's version.

I'm not real happy with $650.00 for the 02A hub and syncros. Can these be obtained cheaper? Also, should I go with smaller VR6 R & P (3.389 same as TDI) or stick with stock EHA R & P (3.647)? Feedback, please.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

Seems on the high end for sure. I am confused about the $950 for a core incase yours is shot. What's left after you bought the new gearset (is this the same as SQS?) forks,sliders, a shaft and some syncro's? Also AP tuning machines your bellhousing for the pinion brace, the VAP unit you have to do yourself(thought you had one already). You never mentioned the 3.93 r&p, not considering? When I asked about beefing up gears I was talking about shot peen, cryo, heat treat or whatever. I'm leaning towards that personally.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> Seems on the high end for sure. I am confused about the $950 for a core incase yours is shot. What's left after you bought the new gearset (is this the same as SQS?) forks,sliders, a shaft and some syncro's? Also AP tuning machines your bellhousing for the pinion brace, the VAP unit you have to do yourself(thought you had one already). You never mentioned the 3.93 r&p, not considering? When I asked about beefing up gears I was talking about shot peen, cryo, heat treat or whatever. I'm leaning towards that personally.


I'm not considering the 3.94 (3.938) R & P since that would be smaller than what I currently have. I've read a little about cryo treatment and shot peening etc. The general consensus is that cryro-treatment doesn't do a whole lot. The shot peening would actually strenghten surface of the gears and smooth them out. This would help prevent chipping gears. I'm not sure if that's standard on the APTuning Race Gearset. That may not be necessary since APTuning uses 9310 Steel alloy with very high hardness.

I have no idea what condition my current EHA transmission is in right now. When I drove it home from trans shop this morning, there was a lot of rattling and loose parts. Hopefully, those are just loose bits from the gearset and not the transmission case. If transmission case is bad, I will have to purchase a refurbished unit outright for $950.00 and have them install race gearset in refurbished unit (along with tranferring Peloquin LSD and new clutch). That would leave me with my broke EHA with all the parts in it. However, they are only going to charge me $300.00 labor for this service. My local trans shop quoted me "in the teens" to rebuild current transmission.

The APTuning gearset with stock-like gear ratios is a steal at $1,700 considering that Quaife and others charge $3,000 to 5,000 for their race gearsets. Keep in mind that APTuning's regular price is $2,600. The gearset is on sale due to inventory supply error.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Yeah, that seems very expensive for another 02J considering that the AP Tuning provides 1-4, I guess they do need your pinion shaft and 5th gear to complete install. Personally, I'd contact your local salvage yard, as most of them will sell you an 02J for 200-400 bux not 950. I just bought a spare one for 200 bux, so I am telling you from experience.

Yes, the APTuning/G-Force gear set is stronger than whatever you will have stock. The only issue is, if it breaks, you have to contact them for parts and that's an issue sometimes because they have somewhat limited quantities of them.

Search on these forums, a few drag racing guys have had issues in the past with these gears, but they are making a ton more power than you and are drag racing.

The 02M is the best option really, but more costly to you since you'll have to get a clutch etc. I mean, they are OEM so tons of parts at any local dealer etc. Not to mention an 02M swap will be cheaper then what your APTuning option is looking like!

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4103395-02m-vs-APtuning-02j


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

mainstayinc said:


> The APTuning gearset with stock-like gear ratios is a steal at $1,700 considering that Quaife and others charge $3,000 to 5,000 for their race gearsets. Keep in mind that APTuning's regular price is $2,600. The gearset is on sale due to inventory supply error.



That's what they have been saying for over a year now. If it was the 2.67 gear set they would have sold a ton at that price by now. I do like Tom @ APTuning. He's a stand up guy and I've gotten parts from them. I'd still go 02M over their stack, but that's just my opinion, I could always be wrong.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> Yeah, that seems very expensive for another 02J considering that the AP Tuning provides 1-4, I guess they do need your pinion shaft and 5th gear to complete install. *Personally, I'd contact your local salvage yard, as most of them will sell you an 02J for 200-400 bux not 950. * I just bought a spare one for 200 bux, so I am telling you from experience.
> 
> Yes, the APTuning/G-Force gear set is stronger than whatever you will have stock. *The only issue is, if it breaks, you have to contact them for parts and that's an issue sometimes because they have somewhat limited quantities of them.*
> 
> ...


Yeah. I thought their $950 for a refurbished unit was a little expensive. I called Lenny at L & T enterprises located in Allentown earlier today to source a used transmission. He wanted $725 for an 02J tranny (2001 - 2004) and $600.00 for 1998 - 2000. I would like to source as many parts as possible myself. But, APTuning is only charging me $300.00 labor for the rebuild and install. That's a great price considering my local trans shop quoted me $1,500.

Ideally, I would like to supply the 02A 1st/2nd gear hub and syncros (APTuning quoted $650) and 02J transmission (APTuning quoted $950) if needed myself. I could probably save $600 to $800 there if I search around.

As far as replacement parts, APTuning has plenty of the smaller 3.4 first and 1.93 second gears. The problem is with the 2.67 and 3.0 first gears which they don't have and people bought and now cannot replace due to overstock of 3.4 first gear. Third and fourth gears are common to both race gearsets and are readily available.

Thanks for link:thumbup:. I read through that briefly last night but will have to go back and spend more time with it.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

before you get all crazy with the numbers i hope you understand what the disclaimer is about the with the ATP gear sets are ???


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

Also, look around... I got three 02j's to date for under $300 on the classifieds.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

If your going to be using the pinion brace you'll have to check for clearance on your upgraded clutch fork. There have been known issues & was just discussing this with someone else here a couple of weeks ago. You can also contact HGB in here for a rebuild. He can do the upgraded 1-2 for you along with most other things. He's very reasonable and he's tristate. The jury is still out on Cryo, but from what I've read, people say it's definitely doing something good. Check out http://www.procryo.com/RemGears.html, seems to be the bee's knee's. When/if another trans gets cracked open I'd like to try to see results on a 02J.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> Also, look around... I got three 02j's to date for under $300 on the classifieds.


I searched classified and couldn't find.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> *If your going to be using the pinion brace you'll have to check for clearance on your upgraded clutch fork*. There have been known issues & was just discussing this with someone else here a couple of weeks ago. You can also contact HGB in here for a rebuild. He can do the upgraded 1-2 for you along with most other things. He's very reasonable and he's tristate. The jury is still out on Cryo, but from what I've read, people say it's definitely doing something good. Check out http://www.procryo.com/RemGears.html, seems to be the bee's knee's. When/if another trans gets cracked open I'd like to try to see results on a 02J.


Yeah. I was thinking about that too. It sounds like the APTuning brace needs to be custom fit anyways since it's not a universal-type pinion brace. I'm hoping the upgraded clutch fork will fit and if not they will make it work... especially if I'm paying top dollar for their brace ($299).


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

mainstayinc said:


> Yeah. I was thinking about that too. It sounds like the APTuning brace needs to be custom fit anyways since it's not a universal-type pinion brace. I'm hoping the upgraded clutch fork will fit and if not they will make it work... especially if I'm paying top dollar for their brace ($299).


The bell housing needs to be machined for the APTuning brace, only needs to be "trimmed" for the VAP motorsports one. APTuning sells a billet fork also if yours doesn't fit. Hank has a 02J for sale right now actually with some upgrades. Search in the transmission classifieds.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> The bell housing needs to be machined for the APTuning brace, only needs to be "trimmed" for the VAP motorsports one. APTuning sells a billet fork also if yours doesn't fit. Hank has a 02J for sale right now actually with some upgrades. Search in the transmission classifieds.


Thanks. I'll search for that in the classifieds. I'm hoping I dont need billet fork since I got good deal on steel-reinforced fork. After speaking with Tom at APTuning, it sounds like he'll do what's necessary to make things work.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6043897-02J-1.8t-from-02

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6010494-Egx-02j-trans

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6009993-GLI-02M-Six-Speed-CHEAP-CT

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5999905-for-sale-02m-6-speed-from-337-125k-450-cash!!!!!


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

^^^Thanks for the links:thumbup:. I like those prices a lot better than the $950 I was quoted.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

too bad these are all vr6 bell housings  

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-LSD-w-TDI-5th-gear-(.756)&highlight=peloquin

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...and-HPA-lengthened-gearset&highlight=peloquin

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...p-with-a-peloquin-Maryland&highlight=peloquin


here are some other options: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-1.8t-mk1-motor-mounts-ect.&highlight=quaiffe

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-Dieselgeek-Linkage-Raxles&highlight=wavetrac


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-trans-swap-..LSD-fx400..&highlight=02J+built


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

^^^PM'd seller. Thanks.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

UPDATE: I drove out to APTuning's shop today in Lebanon, PA about 80 miles west of me. Talked with Tom and confirmed plans to install Race Gearset:

1. 02A/02J Race Gearset - $1,700
2. 1st/2nd gear hub and syncros - $650
3. Labor - $300
4. Used 02J (in worst case scenario) - $950

I will also do a lower pinion girdle - $299 (includes bellhousing modification). 

I also decided to install TDI Ring and Pinion (3.389 final drive) to increase gear ratios across the board - $250
Add to that a TDI 5th gear (0.756 or 0.717) - $580

Tom said he will start to take transmission out next week and determine if current transmission is serviceable. If that's the case, then I won't need a used 02J and can knock-off $950 from total.

*I'm not happy about the $580 for the TDI fifth gear. Last time I checked those went for $350 to $400. If anyone knows one FS at decent price (new or used) then I will snap it up immediately.*

Here is some info. (somewhat dated) about APTuning's Race Gearset.



Aftermarket & Industry News said:


> By reverse engineering a factory 02A input shaft G-Force was able to redesign *key weak areas *of the shaft. Specifically, the *way 3rd gear is mounted to the shaft*. The gears use the synchronizing rings from the 02A transmission, which have larger, stronger teeth. This allows for better shift engagement at high rpm’s when compared to the synchronizing rings from the 02J transmission.


http://www.vwvortex.com/news/afterm...-race-gear-set-for-02a-and-02j-transmissions/










I asked Tom to retain any broken parts of transmission and give them to me so that I can post up here. It will be interesting to see exactly what happened to my 3rd gear which is currently MIA.


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

****s really long, but here you are:

http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_26_59_61&products_id=68

or check out the other options: 

http://shopping.boraparts.com/index.php?cPath=21_26_59_61


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> ****s really long, but here you are:
> 
> http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_26_59_61&products_id=68
> 
> ...


Thanks, man. Apparently, they also have the 0.717 which is shorter. Would I need to buy hub and synchro seperately or is that included in the kit?

http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_26_59_61&products_id=326

EDIT: I'm not sure if I need new synchro/hub for TDI 5th gear. ???


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Some really nice gears here for a good price

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/index.php?cPath=69_137


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Dave926 said:


> Some really nice gears here for a good price
> 
> http://www.advancedautomotion.com/index.php?cPath=69_137


:thumbup: Great help. Thanks.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

And someone just sold a used TDI 5th for like 150 bux. I suggest you go on tdi club and post a WTB thread, I bet you can snag one up for less than 200 bux :thumbup:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

^^^Registered with TDIclub and will start to search/post. Thanks!

EDIT: I will have to wait until my account is activated in order to post WTB thread.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

UPDATE: I spoke with Tom at APTuning this morning. He removed the transmission from car on Monday and tore down transmission yesterday. He said that the transmission case is in good shape and will be used for the rebuild.

We discussed details of the transmission rebuild. This includes:

1. 02A/02J Race Gearset - $1,700
2. 02A 1st/2nd gear hub and syncros - $550
3. Labor - $300
4. Lower Pinion Girdle - $299 (includes bellhousing modification)
5. TDI Ring and Pinion - $250

Notice that item #2 is $100 less than his original quote. That is because I was able to source parts cheaper on internet thanks to your help.:thumbup:

Also notice that I did not include a TDI 5th gear. That is because I don't cruise at highway speeds. I pass people all the time as I am constantly trying to get ahead of traffic. So, a taller 5th gear is not going to serve me.

The TDI Ring and Pinion (3.389 final drive) by itself actually gets me close to a TDI 5th gear on an EHA/EXE 02J with stock 3.647 final drive. See screenshot below. My setup is in yellow, 02J with stock final drive and TDI 5th gear is in purple.










At 120 MPH, the 02J with stock final drive and TDI 5th gear is at 4453 RPMs as compared to 4582 RPMs for my setup (+129 RPMs). Compare this to a stock 02J with stock 5th gear and stock final drive at 4931 RPMs (+478 RPMs).

The original reason to go with TDI Ring and Pinion is to stretch out the slightly shorter 1st and 2nd gears of APTuning Race Gearset (3.4 1st and 1.93 2nd). The taller 1st and 2nd APTuning gears are currently NA.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

UPDATE: I spoke with Tom at APTuning on Wednesday. The car should be ready to pick up next Tuesday or Wednesday. We discussed some of the technical aspects of the APTuning Race Gearset. First and second gear are helical gears with a 20 degree angle. Third and fourth gears are straight cut (spur) gears. Earlier versions of the APTuning Race Gearset had helical third and fourth gears.

I did some research on helical vs. straight cut gears and would like to post results here.

Most transmissions have helical gears due to the fact that they are quieter (smoother engagement). However, the main disadvantage of helical gear is thrust along the axis of the gear (see below). This results in transmission case flex and/or bending of the input/output shafts of the transmission as the gears try to push themselves apart.

Here is a link to background info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear#Helical



Wiki said:


> Spur gears or straight-cut gears are the simplest type of gear. They consist of a cylinder or disk with the teeth projecting radially, and although they are not straight-sided in form, the edge of each tooth is straight and aligned parallel to the axis of rotation. These gears can be meshed together correctly only if they are fitted to parallel shafts.





Wiki said:


> Helical or "dry fixed" gears offer a refinement over spur gears. The leading edges of the teeth are not parallel to the axis of rotation, but are set at an angle. Since the gear is curved, this angling causes the tooth shape to be a segment of a helix. Helical gears can be meshed in parallel or crossed orientations. The former refers to when the shafts are parallel to each other; this is the most common orientation. In the latter, the shafts are non-parallel, and in this configuration the gears are sometimes known as "skew gears".
> 
> The angled teeth engage more gradually than do spur gear teeth, causing them to run more smoothly and quietly.[6] With parallel helical gears, each pair of teeth first make contact at a single point at one side of the gear wheel; a moving curve of contact then grows gradually across the tooth face to a maximum then recedes until the teeth break contact at a single point on the opposite side. In spur gears, teeth suddenly meet at a line contact across their entire width causing stress and noise. Spur gears make a characteristic whine at high speeds. Whereas spur gears are used for low speed applications and those situations where noise control is not a problem, the use of helical gears is indicated when the application involves high speeds, large power transmission, or where noise abatement is important.[7] The speed is considered to be high when the pitch line velocity exceeds 25 m/s.[8]
> 
> A disadvantage of helical gears is a resultant thrust along the axis of the gear, which needs to be accommodated by appropriate thrust bearings, and a greater degree of sliding friction between the meshing teeth, often addressed with additives in the lubricant.


You can calculate the amount of axial force by taking the tangent of the helical angle. For the 02J transmission, stock gears have a 45 degree helical angle. TAN(45) = 1. This means that 100 percent of the torque produced by the engine is forced along the axis of the gear shafts. If enough torque is applied to the transmission, the transmission case will either fail or the input/output shaft will bend to the extent that gear teeth shear straight off.










What so nice about a 20 degree helical gear as found on the APTuning Race Gearset?

Well, the TAN(20) = 0.36. This means that only 36% of the torque produced by the engine is being transmitted axially across the transmission. In other words, first and second gear of the APTuning Race Gearset can handle 2.75 times the amount of torque of stock 02J transmission **all other things being equal**

What's so nice about straight cut or spur gears?

TAN(0) = 0. No axial forces.

What's not so nice about straight cut gears?

They whine. See video below of famous Muncie M22 "Rock Crusher" transmission



Tom confirmed that third and fourth gear will whine somewhat. I might post an audio clip once I get the car back.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Most of the TDI R+P I've seen are 3.15. At least in the older cars. 3.38 comes in every mk3 vr6.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

bonesaw said:


> Most of the TDI R+P I've seen are 3.15. At least in the older cars. 3.38 comes in every mk3 vr6.


Thanks. I'll double-check with Tom to make sure I got the right R&P. 3.15 would be too tall for my application.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

UPDATE: I drove up to APTuning last Saturday to pick up the car. I spoke with the owner, Michael, at length about techical details of the transmission. He showed me the failed parts that came out of my stock 02J transmission:










As you can see, third gear on the input shaft is completely stripped. The gear and hub on the output shaft is severly damaged. As previously stated, the catastrophic failure occured while accelerating from 3rd to 4th gear at relatively low engine speed. It was not a result of a mis-shift or abusing the transmission. My 2.1L bottom end with GTX2867R turbo proved to be too much for stock transmission.

The APTuning Race Gearset with upgraded first and second gear 02A synchros along with pinion brace etc. should hold up to much more power.

I had a chance to see APTuning's R18 project car while I was there. In fact, it was sitting on a lift next to me as I spoke with Michael. I asked about that as well and Michael said that they haven't worked on it much lately. Even so, the car looked stunning.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...A-Different-Kind-of-quot-R-quot&highlight=r18

Old photo of R18:









I test drove my car with new gearset while I was there. My biggest concern was the taller 3.389 ring and pinion. I wasn't sure if new ratio would make car less drivable. Turns out that first gear feels identical to stock. Second gear has slightly longer legs and matches well with my torque-biased setup. 

While test driving car, I heard strange whining sound as I decelerated from second gear. Turns out that it was coming from transmission. Once I got on the highway, I was able to get car into 3rd and 4th gear (straight-cut gears). Wow! The whining builds to a fever pitch as you accelerate under partial and full throttle. I will post video once I can borrow someone's smart phone.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

How do you like the setup after driving a while?


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> How do you like the setup after driving a while?


Sorry I haven't been on here in a few days. I really like the gearing of my built 02J with longer TDI final drive. So far it's been bullet-proof. It takes a few minutes of driving for the gear oil to warmup and allow synchros to engage without effort. Once warmed up, it drives like stock transmission, except that I have nice whining sound. This is especially noticeable in 3rd and 4th gear. Fifth gear is completely silent since it is not part of the race gearset and carried over from stock gearing. Tachometer reads 2200 RPMs in 5th gear at 60 MPH and makes highway cruising a pleasure. The GTX2867R on 2.1L has no problem handling taller gearing with plenty of torque available down low. As far as the segmented kevlar clutch, it has performed perfectly without any evidence of slipping. In reverse clutch feel is slightly rough but that's about it. I really love this setup. Car is currently at local mechanic to address a coolant leak (I don't have time to do myself). I'm in the process of upgrading fuel pump, fuel rail, fuel lines to -6 AN etc.

EDIT: I will only infrequently check into forum. Be patient if I don't respond immediately. Busy with other things at the moment.


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