# 2.5 timing pulls (Vag log) ?



## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

*2007-2.5 timing pulls (Vag log) and carbonio ?*

I will post my log when my friend e-mails them to me later today.

Last night did some logs of timing pulls on a third gear pull. I had timing pulls across all cylinders. I got as much as -12 deg just cruzzing at 75mph in 5th gear. I'm leaning toward gas right now as my friend has a stage 3 tsi that has logged his car many times and found that gas is a major contender.

My car is a 07-1/2 (170hp) apr chip, carbonio cai, res delete. Manual trans, 50,000 miles.

Do any of you log your timing? if so could you post a log.

The whole reason I logged last night was for intake temps vs ambient temps. I have a temp sens. that mounted to old oem intake. When I installed carbonio the intake did not have a inlet for sensor, so my tuner shop said "to just zip tie it out of the way and it should be fine" Well there was just a 2 deg difference from ambient. Not much different. So I wonder if that has anything to do with how the car is running. Does anybody have a log? I would like to compare.

Thanks,

Jj


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i could log it later on today... but i'm a stage 2 unitronic... so i dont know if the numbers will work at all for you.


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> i could log it later on today... but i'm a stage 2 unitronic... so i dont know if the numbers will work at all for you.


If you don't mind. Are you on 93 oct? It would be nice to see if you have timing pulls just cruising. It did better on wot. My third gear pulls where from 2500rpm to 6800rpm . I had no timing pulls when I started at 2700-2900rpm (3rd gear). I had no miss fires that is why I think it is gas. I will be replacing plugs, and try different gas. We have found that sunco gas is the best at providing good data. 

Do have carbonio cai? Could you log intake temp vs. ambient temp. I'm more just curious about that.

My buddy that did the logs is traveling so I hope to get them later tonight and post them. 


Thanks and love your dub!!!


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

thanks...! 

i will record a vid and vag com after dinner...

so you want:

-rpm
-intake temp
-outside air temp
-timing pull (whats the field name on vag com??)

and on my sig is the link to my build thread... yes, i run 93 oct.,


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

log block 020 and 021 (timing) 
log block 134 (intake)

we did by blocks not name


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

ok, that works too...

i'll post a pic of the screen then...


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

done.

i'll post it in 5

edit: i'm now watching it...

wow... i see massive pulling! 

gotta email unitronic?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)




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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

side note:

that was a WOT 3rd gear oull...

on regular cruising, even on hard driving there was no timing pull...

if you could, please post yours so i can compare!


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

What are you logging with again? I need to do a few runs.


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

Sorry it took so long, Took me a bit to figure how to post

i could e-mail you the log. It has several runs.

thanks for posting 
Much different!

Jj


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

TeamZleep said:


> What are you logging with again? I need to do a few runs.


Logging timing.:beer:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

differences i see:

-your intake temps are REALLY low... which intake?? 

-your ECU is ADVANCING timing?? :what:

was that cruising? cause the intake mass seems low for WOT, and the AFR would be lean if it were at wot....

wot= wide open throttle.


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> done.
> 
> i'll post it in 5
> 
> ...


What Gas where you running (company?) I just filled this morning with sunoco 93 going to run this tank out(9gal) fill again then do more log.

I had 6.8 too's.

I think. 3-4 is ok but 5-6 is kinda pushing it.

My buddy with a tsi 2.0t had similar issues in timing and I think it was mostly related to gas. Maybe he will chime in and give his two cents. 

Now that i look at them they are not to far off for being to different tunes.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

to correct my last post:

since the field value name is "timing PULL", my negatives actually mean advanced timing... and your positives means that the ECU is pulling timing...
or so i think.


according to the Bentley tabes, ECU timing pulls shouldnt exceed:


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

I have a Carbonio Intake.
That was WOT from 2700-6300rpm (highlighted in Blue)


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

seems like low values compared to what my car gets on the "intake air mass"


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> to correct my last post:
> 
> since the field value name is "timing PULL", my negatives actually mean advanced timing... and your positives means that the ECU is pulling timing...
> or so i think.
> ...


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

oh ok.. now i see the diff about the intake mass... my car logs on different value fields... so it wont be the same...

its the whole map vs maf thing


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> seems like low values compared to what my car gets on the "intake air mass"


Does your car have a intake sensor on your intake? Like I said in first post, mine is just zipped tied out of the way in the engine bay. As I went faster you can see they are lowering from ambient but only like 2 deg.

My car runs good. I would have never thought the car was pulling timing till I vaged it.
I ran a 15.5 in 1/4.

I have been tossing the idea of sri and nos. (nos is a big ? for me, been reading on it and researching)


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

even the lambda is way different.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

when i was an automatic, i ran a 15.5 too.... lol... really slow overall, but really fast for an auto...


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> when i was an automatic, i ran a 15.5 too.... lol... really slow overall, but really fast for an auto...


With an Auto:banghead: I have manual and don't get out of third on the track. 

Noticed you have ferra stage 2 valves, is that with new springs too?

I want to go just the opposite of you. I want 11:1 pistons, no Turbo with this car.
(ultimately this car goes to daughter when I'm done):laugh:


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## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> differences i see:
> 
> -your intake temps are REALLY low... which intake??
> 
> ...


I'm JJWOF's friend who ran the logs. The values above 0 in block 20 is the ecu retarding timing. This is a bad thing cause the engine is essentially pulling timing back to compensate. Acceptable ranges are -1 to -5. There is no positive values logged here. In an ideal world you would want all cylinders to be 0 but that is unrealistic with the gas in the US but possible. I Have acomplished this onlu with Sunocco 93. I csn easily accomplish this with water meth. 

I'm not familiar with the 2.5 platform. If your cylinders all run hot than maybe your -5* and up values are normal but I would expect they are not. I would try race gas to see if that improves or change to a colder spark plug. 

Jamies IAT values are not real cause his sensor is dangling in the engine bay. This is not logging the true IAT value going into the engine like the guy OP running Uni software. 

Bottom line is you guys are pulling way more timing than my stage 3 setup. And that's just crazy IMO. Again I don't know **** about the 2.5 platform but I cannot imagine this is normal. I'm sub'd to this thread and happy to assist with any questions.


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## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Bottom line is more timing pull is less timing advance which = less power. I troubleshot the issues i had to a transmission mount losing it's structural integrity which caused the knock sensors to "think" it was actual retard. Took me 6 months and many logs to figure it out after ruling out gas and spark. 

Cheers!


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## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't know why JJWolf's log doesn't show a negative value. I would suspect that is a bug in vag-com. Any value in these fields than 0 is the ecu pulling timing.


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## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

thygreyt said:


>


Is column D actually your lambda? Those values aren't right. Is this block 31-1. 31-1 block is the lambda. What block is yours from?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

lambda, thats from block 1.

block 1 has:

-engine speed
-coolant temp
-lambda control bank 1


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

JJWOLF said:


> With an Auto:banghead: I have manual and don't get out of third on the track.
> 
> Noticed you have ferra stage 2 valves, is that with new springs too?
> 
> ...


i havent installed the valves... yet...

imma install em along with the rods, pistons, etc.

but yes, my Non turbo plan is:
11:1, water/meth, cams, intake mani, headers, etc.
and a VERY custom tune...


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm half tempted to go to my buddy at the dealer and test drive a Rabbit 2.5 and log it just to see what a stock 2.5 timing pull is.

Are you running on MAP and not MAF? I did that on my 1.8t...anyway

The Lambda look off compared to afr. You are running real lean at the top of rpm.

I was thinking of emailing Jeff at U.M. to see if this is normal.

If anybody else can do a log for comparison that would be great.

Thanks,

Jj


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

JJWOLF said:


> I'm half tempted to go to my buddy at the dealer and test drive a Rabbit 2.5 and log it just to see what a stock 2.5 timing pull is.
> 
> Are you running on MAP and not MAF? I did that on my 1.8t...anyway
> 
> ...



whats weird is that i hve an AFR gauge, and it shows the AFR to be at 11 or 12 at wot. near 6500 rpms it may even take the dip to 10s... so i dont know why is vag com showing those numbers... :S

and i tried wot 2ice today to make sure everything is fine... and it looks that way.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

JJWOLF said:


> I'm half tempted to go to my buddy at the dealer and test drive a Rabbit 2.5 and log it just to see what a stock 2.5 timing pull is.


i might just do that on sat... lol.

let me call the dealer and ask.


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

Well my buddy is out till Monday. Might still try by a test drive though...
:laugh:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

imma go to the dealer on sat... hopefully i'll test drive a new and an used 2.5 to compare numbers


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

couldnt go to the dealer...


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## JJWOLF (Aug 29, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> couldnt go to the dealer...


My guy should be back in town this week. I'm going to try to log one if he has any, and I have time too. Work real busy this week.


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