# Stand alone engine management debate



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

Whats a good stand alone engine management system to use on a turbo 16v?


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## SSj4G60 (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

which ever people you know how to tune use , ill probably go haltech eventually b/c i know a couple of people that are using it and its not much more than SDS but you need a laptop


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## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (SSj4G60)*

Exactly, run what you feel comfortable tuning. And if there are local peeps running EFI's that are willing to help, maybe use the system they're running. if from scratch, I love my SDS.
hth,


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## CorradoCody (Oct 13, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2L Bunny)*

I've got DTA and a lap top, I haven't used SDS to give an informed opinion. I like the DTA system because of the adjustablilty. You can check it out at http://www.dtafast.co.uk
CC


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (CorradoCody)*

DTA, Autronic, Tec, Motec, are all top notch. SDS works, but why settle for a lower end system? Goto DTA's site and look at the P8pro systems capabilities. Download the free software and take a look. It makes SDS look like kiddie stuff.


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## cidzonetrooper (Apr 16, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (nycvr6)*

CHECK OUT THIS SITE AND MY RABBIT OF COURSE, SEE WHAT AN SDS SYSTEM CAN DO. SIMPLE IS THE KEY WORD, http://www.ptrsds.com.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (nycvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR] It makes SDS look like kiddie stuff. [HR][/HR]​Oh my GOD!!! Do you know the abuse you're going to take for this??
But, I'm with you, man!
Like the SDS site says, it's for racing. And there you only care about full throttle performance and the SDS is just fine for this.
Where the H... is Speed these days? Shouldn't he be checking in to tell us we're full of it?


[Modified by J. Daniel, 7:24 AM 8-30-2002]


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## compresdcaddy (May 29, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (cidzonetrooper)*

i like your setup nice and clean!!! that is a pretty sweet torque curve..I see the 17th was when you ran your 11th...was this the first time out. anyway congratulations. personally i would lose the M&T's far better times to be had with some M&H's or hoosiers....personal opinion though


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (compresdcaddy)*

Go with what you know. Or, if you know none of them, decide what features you're willing to pay for. TEC has data acq, wich I like. 
BTW, I _should_ have an inventory of used TEC-IIs for sale in the near future. I'll post when I have more info.


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vdubturbo)*

SNS should have a pms system for the digi-1 available in the long term future. This will allow all vw parts, along with dynamic programmability and datalogging through a cheap 486 laptop (dos based). This system will allow you to maintain complete legality as it will not require any modifications that might set off a red light with the hard heads (ie California). We hope to see the completion of this project in 6-9 months. After such we'll move to later obd-I models and obd-II models, then lastly motronic 7.0,7.5 pms system.
For some people the ability to keep factory parts in place is important, especially when a warranty is involved. Our primary focus with OBD-II technology will be to be compliant with emissions standards. I think this will be a big task, but will pay off in the future. Something no other standalone systems will provide. In georgia, they just plug in the OBD-II port and let the readiness codes set, and check for CEL's. The ecu/pms could be programmed to simulate the correct response. This will be a patented and copyrighted feature of SNS. 
We're growing, slowly, as the time and money permits. Our years of experience and dedication to low prices, and top quality work will bleed into the future model market cars soon. Why replace a perfectly good ecu with something else? Makes no sense to me as a programmer when you can simply reprogram the unit to do what you want.
I wouldn't throw out a pentium-200 and replace it with a p4-1800 if the job could get done with that old pentium-200 now why would anyone else do that same? A computer is computer, and there are many ways to program them to do whatever you want. The skies the limit. Alas being a programmer at heart, and not a mechanic, we will work with companies that truly are interested in developing these products at an accelerated rate, but the bottom line is SNS is a night job, weekend job, and hobby. 
My idea of fun is not working on the cars, thats for damn sure.
cheers. Enjoy what works best for you, but look forward to true PMS systems in the future. I'm sure we're not the only ones out there bustin' out the the CR167/80x66 disassemblers. Competition is good and healthy, and in the end it just brings more options to the consumer at a better price.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*

quote:[HR][/HR]In georgia, they just plug in the OBD-II port and let the readiness codes set, and check for CEL's. The ecu/pms could be programmed to simulate the correct response. This will be a patented and copyrighted feature of SNS. 
[HR][/HR]​You're kidding right? You're going to file for a patent on an electronic unit that sends false OBD2 emissions data to the scan tools of State regulated SMOG check stations? You might want to think about that one for a moment. Emissions system tampering and falsification carries some hefty fines and imprisonment in some cases.


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## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Jason @ ND)*

Ya, SDS is really crap. That's why it's easy to tune, and you don't need a laptop. All the systems do the same thing, just with more bells and whistles. SDS runs great on my Rabbit when I daily drove the thing. Just as any of the above mentioned systems will when tuned properly. Just cause SDS doesn't need a laptop, people think it's a joke, I find that funny. Sure my next EFI might be a Holly 950, only cause I'd like datalogging next time around.
later,


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## junglistdubber (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2L Bunny)*

im getting the SDS system because of ease of tuning...and installation and i know alot of people who have it. it all basically depends on what kind of features u are looking for http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## KILLACABBY (May 25, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (junglistdubber)*

i've got DTA on my 16v turbo cabriolet and it was pretty easy to tune just 1/2 hour to get it runnin pretty good and then another hour at the dyno and it runs mint (261whp @ 15psi). the only draw back would be the waiting till it warms up as the cold start map is so basic. Compared to other systems for the price id say dta is the best. I know of 5 other guys running turbo and n/a setups using this on vdubs and they are all happy. I know one guy with Haltech on his Talon and he says it sucks. Any way the fastest import in canada runs DTA ( the formula honda altech civic almost 800hp and 9.63 in the quarter) and if its goood enough for them its good enough for me. But thats just my opinion


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2L Bunny)*

quote:[HR][/HR] run what you feel comfortable tuning. And if there are local peeps running EFI's that are willing to help, maybe use the system they're running[HR][/HR]​This is clearly the best advice out there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
quote:[HR][/HR] All the systems do the same thing, just with more bells and whistles. [HR][/HR]​Not true, however. Those bells and whistles (which, yes, you do pay for) can add levels of tunability not possible on cheaper units. And yes, those bells and whistles can mean the difference between 250 and 300 HP OR passing emissions with a track ready car. 
I speak from experience. You get what you pay for. The SDS is a *tremendous* buy for the price. But you will not get all the features of a TEC-II or MOTEC, and depending on your application, you may very well need them. 
But, that's just my take.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KILLACABBY)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Any way the fastest import in canada runs DTA ( the formula honda altech civic almost 800hp and 9.63 in the quarter) and if its goood enough for them its good enough for me. [HR][/HR]​What's the owners name? Is it Mike P?


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KILLACABBY)*

how long did it take u to install DTA? i checked the site and i'm not sure of the 90 mins installation. I saw a kit for the 16v motor for $1400 and it included cutoms maps to get it running. Anyone in US running DTA and where can it be dyno tuned in Maryland or the near by states? 
Holley i looking to and I can use the distributor and don't have to install a crank sensor. but then again who knows how to dyno tune it? 
SDS i know NGP installs and is a dealer and has a dyno. i'm sure they know how to tune SDS but what about the other systems and how to tune them?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

JRC motorsports down in North Carolina had dyno tuned a 16v motor to 349whp using a Holley Commander 950 unit, maybe u should give them a call.
Paul


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## SSj4G60 (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

yea Rodney (think thats his name) is a good guy , hooked my up good w/ my pistons , go through him agian when i start putting together my 16v


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (SSj4G60)*

yeah, Rodney and Dave.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

ok. 16v with 10:1 compression what system do u guys recommend? i remember a guy on here went 15 psi on stock commpression but i don't remember what system. u guys think DTA, holley, or SDS can do it?


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (SSj4G60)*

quote:[HR][/HR]which ever people you know how to tune use , ill probably go haltech eventually b/c i know a couple of people that are using it and its not much more than SDS but you need a laptop [HR][/HR]​i have a lap top and i hav installed Haltechs before so...
its Haltech obvoiusly, i dont know if i would go Tech3, i know i could handle it but i dont want to have to do any crank trigger stuff, if i go haltech i just tap into the ignition. Distributers are a little harder for teh haltech, you have to know what every wire does for the coil, igniter, and dist.
Haltech is my choice, its very easy!!
if you can wire and read a book, its like eatin pie


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## brendo (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

I am strongly considering the TEC3 set-up, but am open for suggestions.
I like the fact that it can use more inputs and outputs for a more precise state of tuning, as well as the data acquisition and laptop tuneability.
Also, the software looks fairly easy to work with.


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (brendo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Also, the software looks fairly easy to work with.[HR][/HR]​Yes, the WinTEC software is lightyears ahead of their old stuff. Not bad at all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif In fact, I'd go as far as recommending it!


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## cesvw (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vdubturbo)*

what about this http://www.perfectpower.com/


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## yellowslc (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KILLACABBY)*

what is the going rate for the DTA p8pro?? Only quote I have is ~2500.. 
Robert


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (yellowslc)*

fudge it SNS is just going to build PMS for all motronic digifant units.
we've got a business plan together. Nice $600 unit and your stock system with a $100 laptop will be pms.
The chip tuning era is going to end soon..


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*

Why don't you tackle some DIFFICULT ecu code?


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Marty)*

cause if i make a pms system i can let you do the work (tuning) and make more cheese. Don't worry we'll have your obd2 system pms too.
just a matter of priorities and quite frankly there's alot more g60 folks paying us for chips than vr6 folks willing to pay for equivalent work. It's all about supply and demand, and yes we will be working with some locales with turbo and supercharged obd-2 (98)'s. 
Even if i make a mad chip whats in it for me? i got no vr6t? i got no vr6. 
I spose the day i get a vr6t in my driveway, i might get inspired, till then, the customers who pay get play..
You can understand, i work all day to support my family, then work more at night. SNS reinvests 100% of its money into redevelopment equipment, so we're gonna just sit around and wait and see what comes our way in the ATL. 
It's not cheap buying cars to develop chips, unless you got the hookup on one for the low low..


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## EuroVeeDub (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*

Man, you crack me up







....what makes it even more funny is the fact that you know what the hell you are talking about http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
quote:[HR][/HR]cause if i make a pms system i can let you do the work (tuning) and make more cheese. [HR][/HR]​....spoken like a true businessman


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (yellowslc)*

i know its $1400 for a 16v with everything for a N/A motor


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## CorradoCody (Oct 13, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (yellowslc)*

quote:[HR][/HR]what is the going rate for the DTA p8pro?? Only quote I have is ~2500.. 
Robert[HR][/HR]​I got mine installed for $2000 at schimmel performance
CC


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (CorradoCody)*

how can u control boost on a stand alone engine management with a internal wastegate?


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## Boge VR6 (Aug 24, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

i went Hal tec ... great tunabilty, and have a great tuner


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Boge VR6)*

Bah, go with cis, great tuneabilty and you dont need a laptop, just a 3mm allen wrench hahahaha










[Modified by killa, 6:13 PM 9-10-2002]


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

ALTECH is the performance shop. Serge Lisboa drives the car.
As far as I know, Mike P ain't in "drag racing" no more.
Chris


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Chris_P)*

finally man, someone answered my question hahaha, Thanks Chris.


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*

quote:[HR][/HR] The ecu/pms could be programmed to simulate the correct response. This will be a patented and copyrighted feature of SNS. 
[HR][/HR]​I think you are supposed to protect ideas that you intend to patent, not publicly disclose them.



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## CorradoCody (Oct 13, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KILLACABBY)*

quote:[HR][/HR] the only draw back would be the waiting till it warms up as the cold start map is so basic. [HR][/HR]​Not really a problem for me cause I warm the car up due to forged pistons. I don't want to romp on the car just after starting it.
CC


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (CorradoCody)*

ok if I wanted to run 10psi on a 10:1 compression 16v is SDS up to the chalange? I have a local dealer NGP but i don't know how much they charge to instal SDS. Has anyone ever ran SDS with 10psi on a 16v with 10:1


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ok if I wanted to run 10psi on a 10:1 compression 16v is SDS up to the chalange? I have a local dealer NGP but i don't know how much they charge to instal SDS. Has anyone ever ran SDS with 10psi on a 16v with 10:1[HR][/HR]​Boom.








SDS is good, but it doesn't defy physics. With that boost at that compression, you're going to have to pull A LOT of timing out under pressure and run good fuel all the time.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Patrick Schmidt)*

well when i'm running 10psi i plan on running 100 octane fuel


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## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

It has been done although I don't know what boost level he was at, I'm pretty sure it was over 10psi. The question is are you up to the tuning challenge? This would require very careful tuning...you don't have a whole lot of room for error.

http://users.snip.net/~str8g/cars/pw.htm


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ok if I wanted to run 10psi on a 10:1 compression 16v is SDS up to the chalange? I have a local dealer NGP but i don't know how much they charge to instal SDS. Has anyone ever ran SDS with 10psi on a 16v with 10:1[HR][/HR]​Yes, it has been done.
http://users.snip.net/~str8g/cars/pw.htm


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

I know of one car that's run 10.8:1 and 17psi with a t3/t4 turbo. Pump fuel, and
SDS. Oh yeah, it's a street car as well.
Chris


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## Boge VR6 (Aug 24, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Chris_P)*

can be tuned to work, just have to tune it right ..


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## Migvr6NYC (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Boge VR6)*

dta,but most system will do .the problem is finding someone 2 tune it.unless u wana pay me.lol


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Migvr6NYC)*

with DTA i have no one local to tune and get advice from. I found a 16v kit for $1400 that includes everything. SDS is local because i'm about 20 mins from NGP.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

One thing that no one pointed out yet(and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)....you can run stock compression and fairly high boost on SDS, BUT- you can't store different maps with SDS. IE, you'll need to retune the car when you up the boost and run race gas. Programmable stuff can be as deadly to a motor as it is helpful, it's only as good as the tuner, so being able to store your fav set up for 93 octane and a different set up for 100 octane is a nice feature that some of the other systems offer. 
I guess you could always dyno tune the SDS with high boost and race gas and write down all your settings for it's easy to go back to at a later date. Anyway, just a thought.


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Andrew Stauffer)*

That is one of the key things that made me go with the Holley Commander 950. The ability to have maps for different conditions and boost levels (WOT racing) the ability to datalog my runs, and the great price ($800).
A question for sds is why they cant write a program to make a palm pilot act as the programming box and have the ability to do limited datalogging? The palm pilots today have more RAM than most of the enigne managements out there, and a larger viewing screen.


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## turboit (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*



> That is one of the key things that made me go with the Holley Commander 950. The ability to have maps for different conditions and boost levels (WOT racing) the ability to datalog my runs, and the great price ($800).QUOTE]
> what other options are availiable for the Holley unit. What did you get with the holley for that price? That seems like a deal almost too good to be true


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

so does holley get your seal of approval???


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (turboit)*

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950MPFI/C950EMSK.html
comes with all sensors, wiring harness, ecu and disks. Comes with a 1 bar map sensor so you will need the approrpriate one for your turbo application. ECU controls fuel and spark, and datalogs. There is also a racing software upgrade available which lets you really fine tune. 
4cyl kit # is 950-104 and is available through summit and jegs.


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

their system gets my seal of approval, but some members at holley's customer service get a bat to the skull. dont get me started.


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## SSj4G60 (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

cant remember the site but one place is selling it for 600 

http://www.porttuning.com/



[Modified by SSj4G60, 12:45 AM 9-16-2002]


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## EuroVeeDub (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

man, looks like you really can't beat it for $800


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## Nutsy (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

Has anyone seen or tried Link's system? It has all the same features as DTA execpt that it does not have traction control; however, it does have KNOCK sensing... a feature which many people don't have... KNOCK sensing is nice to have for boosted applications.
http://link-electro.co.nz/lem_link_plus.html


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Nutsy)*

DTA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (50CENT)*

which system works on a MK4 2.0T? anyone done it? also what would be a safe tuned max on stocks with a copper gasket?


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evoeone)*

Can the stock coolant temp sensor on the 16v head be using on stand alone?


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Can the stock coolant temp sensor on the 16v head be using on stand alone?[HR][/HR]​With SDS, yes.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Patrick Schmidt)*

ok. if u are going N/A do u need the air temp sensor?


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ok. if u are going N/A do u need the air temp sensor?[HR][/HR]​Yep. The air temp sender is used for blown and NA applications. It allows the computer to compensate for air density. 
Look in the left most Velocity stack.
















Cheers,
Pat


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## Boosted SLC (Dec 28, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Patrick Schmidt)*

DTA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (rabbit stew)*

Thats werid







on the DTA 16v kit it has an air temp sensor as optional. It looks like its only standard if u go turbo. werid.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

optional because sometimes you use your stock one.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (speed51133!)*

interesting. i didn't think u could use it.


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

you can use most all your stock sensors if you konw what the wires are coming out the the old sensors you just hard wire it to the standalone. I've done that for almost all the sensors on the Haltech. 
when you get the wiring book for the standalone it will tell you what all the wires do and just match it up for the old sensor, it will work!!


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Gerapudo)*

What companys on the Mid-alantic of US can tune DTA, Holley commander 950, and SDS. I know NGP and Momentum tuning can tune SDS. Schimmel performance can tune DTA, SDS, and Holley.


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Patrick Schmidt)*

quote:[HR][/HR]








[HR][/HR]​this car is quick, kept up with Qka2 A2 VR6 at H20, and the vr is getto intake and tt exhaust, fast ass rabbit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif funny part is that the owner didnt even know his boy ran someone, hahahha LOL


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evoeone)*

quote:[HR][/HR] 
this car is quick, kept up with Qka2 A2 VR6 at H20, and the vr is getto intake and tt exhaust, fast ass rabbit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif funny part is that the owner didnt even know his boy ran someone, hahahha LOL[HR][/HR]​Oh, I new he ran someone, just not who.







He got pulled over on Coastal for racing; but suprisingly did not get a ticket.
Wait till I get the thing actually tuned








Cheers,
Pat


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Patrick Schmidt)*

What I don't get is the fact that most of you guys voted for sds and only 2 voted for the Holley. Why is that? how many maps can u store with sds? how much doest it cost? Right...
edit for spelling











[Modified by killa, 4:17 PM 10-1-2002]


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## rocco2nr (Aug 24, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

dude my friend told me SDS was better


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## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

but the *real* question is what weighs less? answer that and you have the superior system.


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## EuroVeeDub (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (RavenGTi)*

quote:[HR][/HR]but the *real* question is what weighs less? answer that and you have the superior system.[HR][/HR]​Hmmm... or you could just take a big dump before you went to the track http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (EuroVeeDub)*

nope, sorry. the weight of the system is the most important factor.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (RavenGTi)*

Who on here is actually running Holley commander 950?


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## TheHata (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (50CENT)*

quote:[HR][/HR]DTA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif [HR][/HR]​Yes, but who's going to tune it for you? It's not like an FMU, it actually involves brains.


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (TheHata)*

Im actually running the Holley 950. and I actually ran the SDS. I like the Holley better.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

WHo in MD, PA, VA, DE know how o install the g60 fuel system?


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

bump.


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## junglistdubber (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

the SDS doesnt store maps...it just saves the current map settings and when you retune you have to adjust them...im putting my SDS in my street car so im not gonna be fudging with it much...have one setting and go, and just record all the settings as they are, if i do something say add a turbo, im just gonna go through the whole map again.. i dont mind, its not hard to tune at all, ive read the manual and its really simple..like a really simple digital system


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (junglistdubber)*

The bummer of not storing maps is that something as simple yet significant as changing octane creates the need for new settings. It depends on your particular build but for instance, a turbo motor running 93 octane for daily street use and 100 octane for those occasional track days. True, you could tune seperately for both 100 and 93 octane, write down the settings in your car's log book, and merely change it up when the need arose. On the other hand, a $10 calculator stores #s and it's pretty damned simple.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Andrew Stauffer)*

Perfect Power stand alone engine amangement whats the deal with it? i keep hearing it off and on.


----------



## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Patrick Schmidt)*

I know a guy who ran 13psi using an EIC with 4 extra 450cc injectors from SDS, stock CR that is 10.5:1 with no pbms what so ever till the WG failed and he spiked while racing to 25psi and voila voici disparaître le moteur. too bad.


----------



## TheDeer (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (TheHata)*

quote:[HR][/HR]DTA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Yes, but who's going to tune it for you? It's not like an FMU, it actually involves brains.[HR][/HR]​Schimmell is installing it and tuning it IIRC, and why you starting poop.


----------



## Youngdubber6 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (TheDeer)*

From what I can tell..the SDS is popular on the tex because the fastest texers use it..or atleast the fastest 4banger texers...so everyone loves it..

DTA is cheap is great
Holley..I'm not to fimilar with it so I can't say
but tec2 is mad expensive..ya it can be tuned to the max..but if the other stand alones can get similar results and cost way less..the real question becomes..is that price diference really worth the extra hp you might get with a more expensive system or one with more features?


----------



## ACIDBURN (Mar 28, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KILLACABBY)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i've got DTA on my 16v turbo cabriolet and it was pretty easy to tune just 1/2 hour to get it runnin pretty good and then another hour at the dyno and it runs mint (261whp @ 15psi). the only draw back would be the waiting till it warms up as the cold start map is so basic. Compared to other systems for the price id say dta is the best. I know of 5 other guys running turbo and n/a setups using this on vdubs and they are all happy. I know one guy with Haltech on his Talon and he says it sucks. Any way the fastest import in canada runs DTA ( the formula honda altech civic almost 800hp and 9.63 in the quarter) and if its goood enough for them its good enough for me. But thats just my opinion







[HR][/HR]​
so hold on, you are getting 260whp at 15psi, and the dude with the sds is getting 290 at 25psi on a 16v then i say the dta is better, or someone doesn't know how to tune their system right, i know there will be a difference in the actual motor, and the turbo and so forth but this is a huge difference. wouldn't you say.


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (ACIDBURN)*

that has nothing to do with it, there's tons of variables such as the head, turbo, displacement, etc, that you're not even considering.


----------



## silvervdubs99 (Oct 7, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

i am going w/ SDS on my car cause i got it used for doing work on a VR swap, but on my friend's turbo 16v rabbit i made him buy the holley 950 b/c it is awesome for the money and you can datalog runs.


----------



## Youngdubber6 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (ACIDBURN)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
so hold on, you are getting 260whp at 15psi, and the dude with the sds is getting 290 at 25psi on a 16v then i say the dta is better, or someone doesn't know how to tune their system right, i know there will be a difference in the actual motor, and the turbo and so forth but this is a huge difference. wouldn't you say.[HR][/HR]​
killacabby also has a custom intake "icebox" style manifold, tuned by a DTA dealer who has knows how to get the most from the system. Custom turbo manifold, TSI turbo..not that it matters..but the intake would make a difference..look at speed..at 4psi he's making like 139whp..and he uses an "icebox" style intake


----------



## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (ACIDBURN)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
so hold on, you are getting 260whp at 15psi, and the dude with the sds is getting 290 at 25psi on a 16v then i say the dta is better, or someone doesn't know how to tune their system right, i know there will be a difference in the actual motor, and the turbo and so forth but this is a huge difference. wouldn't you say.[HR][/HR]​It's quite possible that the guy running 25psi is running a smaller turbo. It's quite possible that the tuning could use some refining as well. It's quite possible that the intercooler is inefficent. You kinda get my point. To many unknown variables. I would personally choose SDS over DTA. "Simple" Digital Systems
Chris


[Modified by Chris_P, 11:25 PM 12-1-2002]


----------



## GTI2lo (Dec 19, 1999)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Chris_P)*

I've seen killacabby's setup before. It is real nice. The car has lots of potential.
As for the debat of the best management setups, it is really to the descretion of the user. How many user features do you really want. what is the assesibility of a good tuner. Trust me a guy learning to tune, will not get near to a number that a pro tuner will get.


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Chris_P)*

all i have to add, is that i use sds, an i like it. this is a daily driver also.
I came close to buying autronic, but i got a sweet deal from 2088cc.
If i had to do it all over again, id STILL get sds. I mean, could there be better things out there, sure, but i know sds works, and i know how to tune it myself.
i never really understood why others try all sorts of different ecu's, why not just stick to 1. but thats thier game.


----------



## Youngdubber6 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (speed51133!)*

Do any of you know a stand alone called PGB or PMG or something that starts with a P
Sorry I don't have any more information I just know it's somthing like that


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Youngdubber6)*

Engine management options come in three tiers in my opinion, you have your lower tier OEM systems that are chip tuned, middle tier systems such as SDS and Holley, and then their are the top tier systems like MoTeC and Autronic. There are so many variables between the systems it is best to gather an idea of what you want to accomplish and then go from there.
$: 0-500
The lower tier OEM stuff isn't a stand alone sytem, so I am not wasting my time in this thread explaining anything about it.
$: 500-2000
The middle tier stuff like SDS and Holley offer plenty of options but they also have their drawbacks. These systems are not full suite systems, they offer compromises when it comes to options and capabilites. For example SDS doesn't offer datalogging, Holley must be started with a base map that isn't specifcally designed for your application and is limited to a 3 bar MAP sensor.
$: 2000-unlimited
The top tier systems like Motec and Autronic offer every concivable option under the sun. These systems also offer a substanitial gain in processing power, in the case of Motec, the ecu monitors information three times for every revolution of the engine. The drawback to these systems is cost, setup and tuning.


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (130_R)*

quote:[HR][/HR] Holley must be started with a base map that isn't specifcally designed for your application and is limited to a 3 bar MAP sensor. [HR][/HR]​so much shiet is talked on vortex, i doubt any one hits the 3 bar max







, tarck only car i would use a crazy system like DTA or whatever, but SDS is a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif around here


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evoeone)*

yeah, only 3bar, i wanted 30bars of boost!
what you have to keep in mind, is that all engine managment is capable of making your car fast. YOUR the limiting factor.


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## CorradoFANATIC (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (speed51133!)*

3bar map means 2 bar boost. (29psi)


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (CorradoFANATIC)*

yeah i know the 1 bar is for NA and 2 bar for 15 and 3 bar for 30, but realistically, who is touching 30 around here, not many, and ppl should just be realistics with their goals, its just silly when you hear people saying, 
"i have a ABA with P-flo and catback exhaust, over the winte i want to be pushing 38 psi of boost and a 200 dry shot of N2o, what engine management should i get?"
its a very exagerrated example, but you get what i mean...
Save the "what should i get.......which do you guys use...... questions for the 1.8T forum, not towards anyone in specific either, just read around and use some common sense http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







HO HO HO


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evoeone)*

quote:[HR][/HR] so much shiet is talked on vortex, i doubt any one hits the 3 bar max







, tarck only car i would use a crazy system like DTA or whatever, but SDS is a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif around here[HR][/HR]​So who is talking poop?








The Holley box is limited to a 3 bar MAP sensor (29.3 psi over static atmospheric pressure), is it not?


----------



## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (130_R)*

3 bar ----29 29.3 29.8 its all basicly the same its ALOT of boost to be running and its not realistic.


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (turbojeta3)*

quote:[HR][/HR]3 bar ----29 29.3 29.8 its all basicly the same its ALOT of boost to be running and its not realistic.







[HR][/HR]​Not realistic for who?


----------



## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (130_R)*

For alot of people. if you plan on running 29 pounds of boost. go for it. i am happy for you. prove me wrong.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (turbojeta3)*

I heard that holley can store 3 maps. to me thats great. 93octane, 100 octane, and c-12


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## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

i want to hear everyone who uses holley...their opinions and what not....so far i have heard form 1 person....how is the instal? first tuning...etc


----------



## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Gerapudo)*

And all that time I was under an impression that sensors have to be changed!


----------



## MunKyBoy (Sep 16, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (RedDevil)*

Next to SDS, what is the next most easy tuning system that stores settings??


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (MunKyBoy)*

cis,
all you need is a 5mm allen wrench.


----------



## rocco2nr (Aug 24, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (speed51133!)*

3mm bish, you arent a real tuner!! LOL


----------



## davidgel (Jan 5, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

I will probably go with Megasquirt, and if megajolt comes around it will kicks ass for the price (megajolt will control ignition along with fuel)


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (davidgel)*

sounds more like that extra caffine cola.


----------



## Adam20v (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (speed51133!)*

how about this as a new alternative
http://www.revotechnik.com/


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Adam20v)*

ok....i hvae a hard decision....Tec-2 or Holley Commander 950???


----------



## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (IwannaGTI)*

tec!


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (IwannaGTI)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ok....i hvae a hard decision....Tec-2 or Holley Commander 950???[HR][/HR]​What is your budget and what are the options on each system? Who is going to tune it, you or someone else? Are they near you? As for the Commander, read this manual for info on the options and how to tune, etc.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechServ/TechInfo/R10149-5.pdf
HTH,
Victor


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (IwannaGTI)*

ok....i hvae a hard decision....Tec-2 or Holley Commander 950???>>>>>

coming from someone who has tuned 12 cars equipped with TEC-II (and has to maintain them), I say go with the Holley system......
both are easy to tune, but reliability is more important to most people than easy tuning.....

edit; I keep forgetting how many cars I have tuned.
[Modified by lugnuts, 11:22 PM 1-21-2003]


[Modified by lugnuts, 5:56 PM 1-23-2003]


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (lugnuts)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
coming from someone who has tuned 10 cars equipped with TEC-II (and has to maintain them), I say go with the Holley system......
both are easy to tune, but reliability is more important to most people than easy tuning.....
[HR][/HR]​WOW, i'd never think you'd say something like that, always thought that you'd pick the TEC-II over anything haha, can u tells us why you'd choose the 950 over the TEC? just the price or any inside info on the tec?


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## compresdcaddy (May 29, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

1. 950's price is right
2. kevin said maintain tec units...not the cars. all TEC units were under 7 months old and all had to go back.....they dont even no how to fix them some came back still broken,,,etc
3. mine mysteriously went into zero advance right before i went to go into the burn out box...thank god some one oiled down the lane. I turned off the ignition nothing, unplugged both plugs nothing, pulled fuse nothing. let it sit for the duration of them cleaning up the spill. it fired right up... remember that video of me at waterfest against Dave, (2008cc) i didn't sit there on purpose. i banged the coil cut revlimiter and it shut the car off as the tree came down......Thankfully i saved fate on that one.... sorry dave... Maple grove another time i go down the track and it cuts out the whole way down the track!!!!! For some reason we started carrying spare TEC units.......i had more TEC units swaped in my car than spark plugs,,,,or trannies for that matter. one had a bad fuel pump out put, another had a bad idle stabilizer circuit(or kevin fried it) either way the same TEC unit went bad again......send it back again IT has cold soldier joints,,,150 dollar bill, it is an older TEC unit they say,,,,,,it only has 300miles on did i forget to mention......I got a good price on my TEC unit through Electromotives sponsorship program........now i purchased an Autronic SM2 for now till the SM5 comes out...hehe anyways it is better to have piece of mind instead of some good deal or free merchandise. i got to leave i am sure kevin will share is experiences also.....I will be back


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (compresdcaddy)*

I know you guys are "hardcore race guys" but I am a guy that drives my Corrado with SDS daily and I installed the wiring myself and programmed it myself ,and it has not given me one problem after 3000 miles so far,stop and go traffic,occasional trips to the track and rainy weather.I know SDS is not the most popular setup buty I can vouch for its daily driver reliability and when I first installed it I purchased the wrong "tach adapter" and fried the ecu and they sent it back in 2 days and the repair was only $15.00!!But shipping to Hawaii was $50.00!They have good tech support and FAST customer service and I am very pleased I bought the SDS.I don't sell their systems and am in no way affiliated with them,I just think their product rocks!!


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (SILVERADO)*

agreed, but SDS *is* a very popular system in the real world..... on the internet everyone thinks they are going to go out and buy MoTec M800 to put on their 5 psi turbo projects. 
SDS pros: inexpensive, easy to tune,many more setpoints than TEC-II (every 250 RPM, compared to an 8X8 map), reliable, *excellent* customer service(just dont mail anything UPS or DHL to Ross, hehe)
cons: no datalogging (for a street car that is overkill anyway), and only one way to trigger system(Holley can use many different triggers)


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## trelms (Apr 22, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (lugnuts)*

i have three perfect power installs going on right now, 2l 8v turbo and 2 1.8t cars i will leak out more info about it soon, basically the same as tec3 for 815bucks email me if interested and i agree there are many many variables in which decision most people make


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (trelms)*

I'll throw my 2 cents in here








I'm running an SDS on my 16vG60, it was easy to install, easy to setup, instructions were easy to follow.
Car ran on pretty much the base map.
It seems as driveable as factory (never driven a real 16vG60







)
And it didn't cost an arm and a leg.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for racetechs technical support and info on their website.


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (OttawaG60)*

Holley's tech support sucks.


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Holley's tech support sucks.[HR][/HR]​The tech guy at Electromotive is an arrogant ass, but he'll get you the answers if you can put up with him.


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vdubturbo)*

haha had enough of Fred's speaker phone, eh?


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Holley's tech support sucks.[HR][/HR]​I feel I need to modify this. True, they don't know much about running the system on cars that aren't American 6 or 8 cylinder engines, but they have been polite and patient with me, asking what were probably pretty basic questions. They weren't much help in helping my diagnose a problem which later turned out to be a bad ECU, but they sure did put up with my constant calls, haha. You should probab;y assume that you are going to have to figure it out on your own, or holler at some of the folks already running the system on VWs.
I have no issues with their warranty. I had a problem with my ECU, I sent it back, they confirmed it was bad and sent me a new one, no questions asked. I don't know if this is the norm, but that was my experience.
Victor


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (lugnuts)*

quote:[HR][/HR]haha had enough of Fred's speaker phone, eh?[HR][/HR]​Man, you know it. I've been dealing with him since '97 (Pretty sure its the same guy). No matter how used to it I am, it still irks me! He knows his stuff, though.








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vfarren)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Holley's tech support sucks.
They weren't much help in helping my diagnose a problem which later turned out to be a bad ECU, I have no issues with their warranty. I had a problem with my ECU, I sent it back, they confirmed it was bad and sent me a new one, no questions asked. I don't know if this is the norm, but that was my experience.
Victor[HR][/HR]​Great, first it was dave that had a bad ecu, then you, let's guess who's next..


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

quote:[HR][/HR] Great, first it was dave that had a bad ecu, then you, let's guess who's next..







[HR][/HR]​Haha, yeah, the only way to tell is to hook it up and see if your car runs. My problem was that I wasn't getting a Hall Effect signal coming out of the computer. I was getting a Hall Effect out of the dizzy and into the ECU, it just wasn't coming back out of the ECU to the MSD.
They did take care of me though, and it was pretty fast. Good luck dude.
Victor


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vfarren)*

Is the debate over?I guess it is,SDS wins!J/J


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (SILVERADO)*

i'm rooting for holley commander 950


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vfarren)*

quote:[HR][/HR] 
Haha, yeah, the only way to tell is to hook it up and see if your car runs. My problem was that I wasn't getting a Hall Effect signal coming out of the computer. I was getting a Hall Effect out of the dizzy and into the ECU, it just wasn't coming back out of the ECU to the MSD.[HR][/HR]​Damn...that was my problem also. 
...Anyone with the 950 have the race software?


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

poop. You guys helped me out over the phone a couple of times. Thanks. Any updates on the scirocco?
As for the Commander problem, the tech at Holley said they weren't even going to open up the ECU to check to see what was at fault. He gave me some lame sob story about people frying the ECUs by hooking them up improperly and sending too much voltage to it. Wasn't my case because I had the wiring in the car before I even connected the ECU or the battery! Anyway, the tech didn't even try and argue that is was my fault so I guess this has happened before.

Victor
quote:[HR][/HR] 
Haha, yeah, the only way to tell is to hook it up and see if your car runs. My problem was that I wasn't getting a Hall Effect signal coming out of the computer. I was getting a Hall Effect out of the dizzy and into the ECU, it just wasn't coming back out of the ECU to the MSD.
Damn...that was my problem also. 
...Anyone with the 950 have the race software?[HR][/HR]​


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## jasonyates (Nov 23, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

I added Perfect Power to the list. My friend has the whole setup sitting around waiting to go on a VR6 sometime, haven't used it yet though. It looks cool sitting around though so that is worth a vote.


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## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (2008cc)*

I'm going to try the race software. Its a wierd deal , you have to buy the ecu and the software and send the ecu back to Holley with the software so they can modify the ecu to accept the additional inputs and I'd imagine some type of memory is installed for the onboard datalogger. You can't buy it with the race software already installed.


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## 30LVR6 (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (BUNNYLOVE)*

PLEASE IM ME IF YOU HAVE TECH-2
thanks


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (30LVR6)*

Yeah im going to send my ecu soon...the race software had programing to control NOS also


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## 96 Golf 2.0T (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vdubturbo)*

Interested in buying electromotive tec II, is the kit comlete with all sensors and brackets? let me know thanks, you can email me a [email protected]
thanks


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## fopeano (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Youngdubber6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Do any of you know a stand alone called PGB or PMG or something that starts with a P[HR][/HR]​Are you thinking of the PRS? It it the Perfect Power offering.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (fopeano)*

Who is running tec 2 on here and how is it to u? Is it worth the money? what problems have u had with it?


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (lugnuts)*

Has anyone here used an SDS setup on an MK4 VR6 before?


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## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Holley's tech support sucks.[HR][/HR]​A fudging men to that. This comes from my V8 experience. They don't even update software in most cases (like Win 98 & XP)...if the software was made for Win 95, their answer is "buy an old laptop with 95 and just use it for the tuning".







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## evildub82 (Sep 14, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KrautFed)*

its all about what your going to initially use the car for, daily driver, street, drag.....
if you want to have a sick 9 second grocery getter that passes emissions go all the way with something like TEC, youll have all the adjustability you want with the propper dataloging to save the maps. this way if you want to get your late night taco bell in 10 flat you can while taking your time enjoying it on the way back. 
as for something like a daily street car thats not too over the limit, sds is great. its practically fool proof for any application. though your limited on performane gains without re mapping, why care, are you planning on modding and dynoing your car every time you go out.....
my piont is its all about what you plan on doing with the car, nothing is unreasonable. im going with sds on my poject, simple effective and once i found the right map for what i have and how i run the car it stays that way.
plus i hate wires...hehe








as for this
"cis,
all you need is a 5mm allen wrench."
dont think its funny, what do you think ferrari and porsche used back in the day!
ive read the bosch k jetronic books front and back and with a little ingenuity you can prove better then some of the most expensive fuel management systems out there!!!


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evildub82)*

quote:[HR][/HR]as for this
"cis,
all you need is a 5mm allen wrench."
dont think its funny, what do you think ferrari and porsche used back in the day!
ive read the bosch k jetronic books front and back and with a little ingenuity you can prove better then some of the most expensive fuel management systems out there!!![HR][/HR]​CIS, with an additional injector controller works pretty good up to like 10psi, after than the timing should be retarted a bit in order to prevent detonation, but the CIS systems use 3mm allens, not 5mm.


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KrautFed)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Holley's tech support sucks.
A fudging men to that. This comes from my V8 experience. They don't even update software in most cases (like Win 98 & XP)...if the software was made for Win 95, their answer is "buy an old laptop with 95 and just use it for the tuning".







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif [HR][/HR]​why the hell are they still using disks, and not downloadable or CD software? that just makes it look and markets it like old and un-updated....
Killa, hows that commander working? in yet? any problems with it so far?


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## Black Lightning (Sep 23, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evoeone)*

anyone have some basemaps for the holley 950 they can email me for a VR6???


[Modified by Black Lightning, 5:36 PM 3-6-2003]


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (evoeone)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Killa, hows that commander working? in yet? any problems with it so far?[HR][/HR]​I wired most of it up last year as soon as i got it, haven't touched the car since because of other issues.


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## Mysterio619 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Gerapudo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gerapudo* »_you can use most all your stock sensors if you konw what the wires are coming out the the old sensors you just hard wire it to the standalone. I've done that for almost all the sensors on the Haltech. 
when you get the wiring book for the standalone it will tell you what all the wires do and just match it up for the old sensor, it will work!!

Is that going to work with a DTA also? same stuff right..wires are wires


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## 30LVR6 (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Mysterio619)*

all you have to know is what wire does what going in to the sensor.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Mysterio619)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mysterio619* »_
Is that going to work with a DTA also? same stuff right..wires are wires

yup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## QuickBlackGTi (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

Has anyone heard of the FAST system? Alot of V8 people use this system. I dont see why it wouldnt work for our cars.http://www.fuelairspark.com/catalog/banktobank.asp
heres a link


----------



## Mysterio619 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (QuickBlackGTi)*

alot of Honda guys use F.A.S.T..either that or Hondata


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (QuickBlackGTi)*

i took a quick look at it and it didn't seem to have ny system that works on a 4cyl.


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (killa)*

F.A.S.T. works, its like the "pong" of engine management systems haha


----------



## T04VR6 (Aug 31, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (lugnuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lugnuts* »_F.A.S.T. works, its like the "pong" of engine management systems haha

so pretty much like sds!!!


----------



## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (T04VR6)*

so anybody knows how much does it cost??


----------



## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

I have to agree, go with what you know how to tune.


----------



## Mysterio619 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (Boragirl03)*

DTA is the best for the price...you can use like 90% of the stock sensors..maybe all I'm not sure, plus you need what..the ECU and harness..boo..that's it...it's cheaper$$$ and has alot of features...


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Mysterio619)*

I'm getting me megasquirt fuel system management ordered next week and run stock igniton and hook my turbo equipment up.


----------



## RAZZOR (May 4, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Fitted a Microtech lt8 today on a customers VR6 powered rally car.THE i have ever done ,took me just over 3hrs30mins to remove oe system and install the lt8 .Car started on the turn.Used all stock sensors ,removed maf sensor.Running a bit rich but absolutely smooth.took it for a spin was surprised at its base map is so close to perfect.Have fitted and tuned Wolf 3D,Haltech,electromotive and Luminition.
This system is the best value for money in comparison to the above mentioned.check it out you'd be surprised the amount of time and money you would save and thats a big plus in my book!!


----------



## RAZZOR (May 4, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Fitted a Microtech lt8 today on a customers VR6 powered rally car.THE quickest and easiest install i have ever done ,took me just over 3hrs30mins to remove oe system and install the lt8 .Car started on the turn.Used all stock sensors ,removed maf sensor.Running a bit rich but absolutely smooth.took it for a spin was surprised at its base map is so close to perfect.Have fitted and tuned Wolf 3D,Haltech,electromotive and Luminition.
This system is the best value for money in comparison to the above mentioned.check it out you'd be surprised the amount of time and money you would save and thats a big plus in my book!!


----------



## Black Lightning (Sep 23, 2001)

*Re: (RAZZOR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RAZZOR* »_Fitted a Microtech lt8 today on a customers VR6 powered rally car.THE i have ever done ,took me just over 3hrs30mins to remove oe system and install the lt8 .Car started on the turn.Used all stock sensors ,removed maf sensor.Running a bit rich but absolutely smooth.took it for a spin was surprised at its base map is so close to perfect.Have fitted and tuned Wolf 3D,Haltech,electromotive and Luminition.
This system is the best value for money in comparison to the above mentioned.check it out you'd be surprised the amount of time and money you would save and thats a big plus in my book!!

What system do you recomend for most power, control, and a turbo???


----------



## WMTJ (Jan 26, 2001)

Do you have a web site for Microtech lt8 ?


_Modified by WMTJ at 12:23 PM 5-6-2003_


----------



## Black Lightning (Sep 23, 2001)

*Re: (WMTJ)*

you guys might want to look at this, not sure if it has been posted before or not
Programmable Management Mania:
Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_165/article.html
Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0168
Part 3
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0175


----------



## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (Black Lightning)*

microtech doesnt have a website, i tried and steve nichols from aussie imports told me that, its kinda crappy that you cant even take a look at what your gonna get
SDS pong???? how so.... lugnuts told me i would be happy with sds


----------



## stevenichols (Oct 9, 2002)

*Re: (evoeone)*

The microtech is an OK system for the VR6. I said the Autronic is much easier to tune and better to drive. There are a lot of happy customers with the Microtech I'm sure. I know there are with the Autronic.


----------



## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: (Black Lightning)*

Which one of these would work with an MK4 VR6?


----------



## Mysterio619 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (LoGIc)*

umm..DBW VR6???..good question..I guess you'd change to a OBD2 or OBd1 vr6 throttle body and use the same systems as those


----------



## 10secRabbit (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (nycvr6)*

I would put sds against any system out here.it dosent have some of the bells and whistles higher priced systems.but vws dont really need them either. i know its more than flexable enough to pass Nj emissions.I made 400 hp on a stock 1.8 liter 16v with 10-1 comp.for over three years.....the system you chose is only half the equation.the person tunning it, will make you or break you.
good luck
Paul


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (10secRabbit)*

I like SDS too,but you have a way faster car than I ,so I am sure your opinion means more around here,SDS got me from 17.9 to 13.9 so far.And my shiz is still runnimng perfectly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by SILVERADO at 2:06 PM 5-10-2003_


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (evoeone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evoeone* »_
SDS pong???? how so.... lugnuts told me i would be happy with sds

Lugnuts told me i'd be happy with megasquirt, so im going autotech. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## veedubber UK (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: (killa)*

i haven't read this entire thread as its soooo long now, so if i am repeating etc i apologise
But i bought a DTA loom for my 20vT conversion today, and its very clearly laid out, labelled etc and the instructions are very clear and user freindly.
mind you it doesn't look much to run a whole engine!!!








i reckon to install that to the engine etc it wouldn't take any longer than 90minutes







Veedubber


----------



## Infil (May 20, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

Have you looked at Wolf3D at all? I have played around with one of those and they are very solid systems.
The FAST system is also very good. 
Haltech, Motec, DTA and SDS are all descent systems, Motec is by far IMO the best EMS system on the market but damn do you pay for it. In most cases the Motec is just plain overkill.
The DTA system is a nice setup but can be a pita to install and they do tend to have wiring harness issues. SDS is the same way, but they have more software issues. Not saying their bad systems but they can be finicky.
My experience with Haltech is limited to rotary's and on those applications, the haltech was an incredible setup. Personally i'd reccomend the FAST, or maybe the Accel DFI.
Electromotive is from my experience pretty much vaporware and support on it is impossible.


----------



## vr6turbin (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

Motec M800 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
C'ant say any more that this


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vr6turbin)*

I *KNEW* when I posted this link in the other thread that someone would reply and bring it back up. This is my fav stand alone post.
Jason


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vdubspeed)*

lol. this one brings back memories


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

DTA RULEZ!














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
My engine management can beat up your engine management!








Well, seriously... they all have their pros and cons, and any of them will get the basic job done. The only thing to debate is value for the dollar, I s'pose.
Bradley


----------



## jernest (Aug 11, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Angular)*

Does someone knows the the official dealer of MicroTech in the US?
Need to know price for Microtech MT8 and any experiences???
Have any of you guys have any experience the Split Second FTC1 Fuel & Timing Calibrator for a 4 cyl???


----------



## Vento FI (Apr 19, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (jernest)*

Jernest:
I can hook you up with the LT-8 and it goes for around $ 890.00 pending on the options that you want, let me know about it I'm in Puerto Rico


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Vento FI)*

I looked at dta, tec3, sds, haltech, and holley commander. And I'm thinking about going with tec 3 in 3 months.
added everything up for dta came out to 1600 for everything and its not located in the US so if it breaks I have to ship it international and wait for it to come back.
If I get a haltech its 1400 and same as DTA.
If I get a holley its 1200-1300 and it doesn't support a boost soliniod so it can't control boost and I have to use my distributor which I broke what I reinstalled my head.
So I getting tec 3 because I have tec 2 and if I need tech support there are loacl shops I can call. plus electronitive is a hour from my house.
all these prices was with adding coil packs and my options.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

There is the official DTA distributor in California, Frederic Ducastel. And Schimmel Performance is a dealer who has done all those killer VR6 cars. Check into service options before you rule DTA out. I bought mine from Eurospeed in Canada because I had a large order with a bunch of stuff, but the DTA ECUs actually shipped from Ducastel in California.
Bradley


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Angular)*

laptops gives people a sence of power, speed, and control.







that why I like them. 
I would make out cheapier getting DTA but I like tec units for some crazy reason. well every fast car I seen had one and every dude i know with a fast cat uses it so I learned about tec and watched peopl etune there cars with it before I even owned one.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_I would make out cheapier getting DTA but I like tec units for some crazy reason. well every fast car I seen had one and every dude i know with a fast cat uses it so I learned about tec and watched peopl etune there cars with it before I even owned one.

You best talk to the boys at Schimmel and some of the customers using DTA that are here on vortex if you want to learn something about fast cars!








DTA... it's the way!


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Angular)*

I read on the dta forum and the main feature I want to use is flacky. the extra port so I can use a aprex boost solinoid. it get surges. and all I run is low impedence injectors so i have to get resistors. with tec 3 don't need them and the GPO software is ready for the solinold. plus u can adjust in the software if u installed the crank wheel wrong to being it back to perfect timing.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_I read on the dta forum and the main feature I want to use is flacky. the extra port so I can use a aprex boost solinoid. it get surges. and all I run is low impedence injectors so i have to get resistors. with tec 3 don't need them and the GPO software is ready for the solinold. plus u can adjust in the software if u installed the crank wheel wrong to being it back to perfect timing.

You can adjust the "crank sensor position" with DTA to achive the correct timing, just like most systems. With DTA, the outputs are fairly generalized in that they are pulse width modulation and use PID parameters to control the closed loop behavior. What that means, in a nutshell, is that you need to configure it correctly and it will work.
Having to install the resistors for low impedance injectors is a bit of a pain but not a big deal in my opinion.
Have fun with the TEC3! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Angular)*

Anyone here runing motech or megasquirt? Yea i know but I like to talk to people about different systems and features. plus I want to get to 10 pages on here and people can learn about standalone and ask questions about it.
How ever i like on DTA how u can view your MPH on the laptop http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I have no idea how it works but its a cool feature. 
SDS has a good tech page on general info about turbo and engine performance also Megasquirt has great stuff on turbo and how they work in there manual.


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

okay people...we already have 3 seperate ballots for SDS. If you want to vote for SDS just click on the top one. DO NOT "add another ...!!!


----------



## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (vdubspeed)*

Voted DTA...
i have the P8Pro sitting under the bed in its box ...but first im gonna play around with the magasquirt


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Scirocco G60T)*

lol megasquirt. I remember that. I should I get 100 e-mails a day from the mailing list. I was goi ng ot use that but went with tec 2. Is anyone currently running it? if so how do u like it? and when in the hell is ultra megasquirt coming out?


----------



## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

its still being developed.. due date for it is not yet set.
Bruce and Al are still working on the WB controls... but i guess once they get that down it should take that long after that.


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_lol megasquirt... Is anyone currently running it? 

There is a NA rabbit running megasquirt with ITBs in the Golf 1 forum. The guys vortex name is "CdnDub".
His car sounds SWEET
Here's a pic of the ECU:








pics of his build up can be found in the link below. Pics of the ITB/ECU setup start on about the 40th page!...
http://www.plasmabunny.com/gallery/bodywork 
And what about a link to a short vid clip of 2 fly bys...
http://www.angelfire.lycos.com...1.wmv 
And if you wanna good read...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=942528 
Wow...that took a lot of time to put this reply together








Jason



_Modified by vdubspeed at 7:34 AM 1-13-2004_


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

The main reason I chose DTA is because it has a 32bit processor and it looks at whats going on every 2 tenths of a second. And in a drag car when your only running full bore for seconds its very important to have a fast ECU. I really think that's why my car was very consistent
But on the other hand it seems like you are familiar with the TEC setup. And I always say go with what you know. Plus there are tons of TEC guys in MD so if you ever did have probs there wouldnt be much down time. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Brian


----------



## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (50CENT)*

you're kidding right? An 8 bit processor can look at whats needed more than every 2/10th's of a second. How fast do you think a distributor is turning at 7000rpm to generate a hall pulse for old ass ecu's like digifant?
given a 4 window hall signal..
a drag car doesn't need much, just a few look up tables ya know? The big load of modern ecu's is emissions, cold start, trim's, etc. Cut those out (since a drag car doesn't need them) and you got not much.
Remember, digi-1, tec2, and sds all use the same generation cpu's. They have all been able to make loads of power on cars, given a 15 year old cpu design (hybrid 16bit cpu).
Btw, the reason the outputs don't work well for boost controller , is because you need to not simply pulsewidth the output, you need to curve it so (preferably self-learning) because as the weather changes/etc, your boost controller needs to how can i explain it, it needs to hold the waste gate open until it approaches set boost, then start yanking it shut , but not instantly, to avoid surging, or opposite - overboosting (surging as well).
This can take an extra few lines of code, and most smart boost controllers these days use feedback from the map sensor to learn the first time if it overboosts to start clamping the waste gate shut earlier in a smooth progression. I forget the math. Some dampening formula like 1/32 1/16 1/8 1/4 or whatever (i failed math). 
Anyhoo you'll find nice boost controllers can adapt fast to overboost and probably keep attack/decay methods in memory so as the drive progresses it keeps learning your boost rate (closed loop eh). and keeps from missing the target.
Some of the simpler boost controllers might have a knob like sharpness to do this as well. 
Not hard math, but if the ECU maker didn't dedicate this kinda of programming you'll find the laws of physics will make it a crappy boost controller. 
Then again if you've seen the code from anything 1990 and up for closed loop emissions you'll understand how complex the coding is for emissions, idle stabilization, etc. It all works together to make a really big mess of maps/luts and if you get it just right will make for a happy car. 
The part is the dominoe effect, you could throw some more timing into the idle range, sending the rpm's up when the car hits that cell, which then causes the fuel to change as well, then the ISV system will say whoa, pull back air, fattening the air mixture, the closed loop o2 code might say whoa too fat, lean it out, the car might then surge idle down, hitting lower cells, the isv says whoa too low idle,let more air in, the air fuel ratio now is super lean, the emissions code says, crap dump more fuel..
see the complex domino effect (sorry if i got off topic) but its quite a to program adaptive systems when you have other system's working against ya








the more complex the ecu, the more adaptations tables and crap you have to deal with, which is kinda why i think sds is pretty neat. Doesn't interpolate your values which adds more complexity to settings since you have to think about each cell and how its going to slope to the next cell with a 8 bit interpolation value.


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Scirocco G60T)*

MkRad,all that shizzle went way over my hizzle..............I don't know nuthin about these newfangled cumputerrs,BUT,I do agree stand alone is consistent,last time we were at tracks,the fastest turbo Honda that night ran 13.1,then 13.7,13.8,13.9,I theorized that as his car got hot,his charge air temps went up (due to air intake being right behind the radiator)and his knock sensors were pulling out more timing every run,with the stand alone SDS cars we run no knock sensors,and we are always within 2-3 10ths all night,guys tell us we should enter the bracket races because our cars are so consistent,but we are really just street car guys dikin around for fun and not that serious,we are happy to have a few streetcar kills...............but it is nice,that Honda guy that night got sower and slower,we pretty much stayed the same. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif BTW you guys notrice SDS is leading the polls?Might not be the bbest,but it is popular and it WORKS RELIABLY AND EASILY!


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Holy Piston)*

tyrone , why you want tec 3 if you having so many problems with tec 2? just curious, i didnt read the whoel therad, just bits, 
sds rules


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*

For you to say a drag car dont need much just shows your ignorance bout modern import drag racing. 

Any engine management can work well I wasnt hating on any. I was just stating my experience. And If you read my post right I was basically telling him to go with TEC3
Now controlling boost electronicly is exactly what I would not do. You give me 2 street or drag cars with the same setup 1 with electronic control and 1 with manual and I guarrantee I make the 1 with the manual smoke the electronic one over and over. 
Brian 
_Modified by 50CENT at 6:59 PM 1-17-2004_


_Modified by 50CENT at 7:04 PM 1-17-2004_


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_
Remember, digi-1, tec2, and sds all use the same generation cpu's. They have all been able to make loads of power on cars, given a 15 year old cpu design (hybrid 16bit cpu).
.


You name me 5 FWD imports that have made big power with these units and ran a number to back it up or even a MPH. Most of the fast cars use MOTEC, DFI and AEM.
None of those ECUs were listed in the poll. It just shows the lack of knowledge
Brian


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (D Wiz)*

lol. because its one only system I half way know and for some reason I can trouble shoot tec 2 a littl e but not the mechancial motor itself. plus All my conquest, vw 16vt, and talon buddys of mine are running it (its like hell to call them because they work all the time and have women) but when i catch up with them I learn a lot. 
I'm going to keep my tec 2 for a while until I get enough to change to a different system. I'm always on the DTA forum, megasquirt mailing list, and etc looking at different systems and reading about what people are doing. 
Most of my problems are mostly self inflected and me being me and not listening to others ( I have a hard head).


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_you're kidding right? An 8 bit processor can look at whats needed more than every 2/10th's of a second. How fast do you think a distributor is turning at 7000rpm to generate a hall pulse for old ass ecu's like digifant?
given a 4 window hall signal..
Btw, the reason the outputs don't work well for boost controller , is because you need to not simply pulsewidth the output, you need to curve it so (preferably self-learning) because as the weather changes/etc, your boost controller needs to how can i explain it, it needs to hold the waste gate open until it approaches set boost, then start yanking it shut , but not instantly, to avoid surging, or opposite - overboosting (surging as well).
Not hard math, but if the ECU maker didn't dedicate this kinda of programming you'll find the laws of physics will make it a crappy boost controller. 
the more complex the ecu, the more adaptations tables and crap you have to deal with, which is kinda why i think sds is pretty neat. Doesn't interpolate your values which adds more complexity to settings since you have to think about each cell and how its going to slope to the next cell with a 8 bit interpolation value.


The DTA P8Pro has a fast processor because it is dealing with traction control and multiple programmable inputs/outputs in addition to fuel and ignition, idle stabilization, boost control etc.
As for boost control, I don't think it is rocket science and requires a degree in physics. DTA uses standard control systems (closed loop) parameters P, I, D which if I recall is proportional, integral and derivative. The parameters describe the response of the closed loop system and if you get them right, you'll probably have satisfactory boost control performance. Some of it depends on the boost control valve you select. A manual ball/spring check valve to prevent boost spikes doesn't hurt either of course.
Interpolation between cells is now a bad thing? Man, that's a new one on me. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the slope between cells other than to look at the 3D wire graph of the maps to make sure nothing looks out of whack.
Bradley


----------



## diygti (May 4, 2001)

Its sad that only five poeple in this long-ass thread have mentioned megasquirt. Its got more features than the top system on the poll (SDS) and I put my whole setup together for around 200$. 
That is monumental in my humble opinion.


_Modified by diygti at 12:10 AM 1-20-2004_


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (diygti)*

Not everybody can,or wants to mess with sautering boards and that mess.SDS takes literally 1 afternoon to install and get it running and driving and making power,,time is $$$..............


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_Not everybody can,or wants to mess with sautering boards and that mess.

You hit the nail on the head there Piston. Notice in the pic of the megasquirt ECU above that it's all hand made. That's great IF you want to do that but I surely do not. I've been deciding my fuel management for ONE YEAR and SDS is perfect for my needs. 
Maybe if someone built megasquirt ECUs, supplied them with all the necessary equipment to setup in one afternoon and did it cheaper than SDS then I would buy it. But for right now...I really don't want to go to radio shack because my engine is not running right. 
Jason


----------



## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

I'd rather say MegaSquirt Just for the fact that something goes wrong you can fix it yourself! And the best part of it all is that its open source!!!
You can add on and moddify the ECU (If you know how to) and the source code till you drop!!!
you want the ECU to maintain a certain AFR with the WBO2 ??? No Problem!!! Its already been done. 
I Just dont understand why ppl cant sit down a and think about it for a sec.
UMS will blow SDS, DTA, Motec and all the rest of the manufacturers away as far as options vs price !!!
UMS will almost be the same price as the regular MS. the only difference is that UMS will incorporate Automotive grade connectors and moves up to SMT (Surface Mount Technology) which will further allow UMS to "shrink" in size! Next thing is that UMS will have a built in WBO2 controler for the inexpensive Bosch LSU WBO2 sensor. Talk about tunning capabilities!
I dont mean to knock all the manufacturers but.. its time to face reality!!!
UMS WILL be a better system for a fraction of the cost of theirs, UMS IS a open source unit and last BUT with the outmost importance SUPPORT !!!
theres the Yahoo board of MS users !!! Lots of info and help if needed.
I HIGHLY RECOMEND joining that group if you are thinking of buying/making an MS (or latter on UMS) unit. There are PPL on there that are selling pre-ansembled untis for those that dont have the electronics skills needed... and everything else is explained and can be learned pretty easily(if you want to)
Anyway... thats my 2 cents.
you guys can say anything but MS ad UMS are the most cost effective AND when UMS comes out im sure that it will blow SDS out fo the water just for the simple fact that it has everything that SDS has PLUS a whole lot more for way cheaper !!!!








BTW...
Im working on a Digital Dash that will interface with MS unit ( and with the UMS Unit latter on) that will replace all instrumentation in favour of an LCD panel that will replace the stock instrument cluster. Maybe will make a few stand alone units as well. So far the screen (12"x3") costed me $45 !! and the rest of the parts wont be that much either !! Im estimating the whole thing will about roughly around $150 - $200 range ( deppending on how many inputs the processor will have... still looking ). This will also allow you to tune or switch maps on the fly ( this will be latter implemented when will get to work with the new UMS unit) vis remotely mounted swithces (you can out them anywhere in the car... mine will be on the steering wheel)










_Modified by Scirocco G60T at 7:00 AM 1-20-2004_


----------



## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*

>>I Just dont understand why ppl cant sit down a and think about it for a sec.<<
Show me some cars that are making good power with it. (more than double stock output)


----------



## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

i bet there are a few ppl out there putting down more than 2x then stock with MS! Personaly i dont know anyone since i joined not that long ago.
BUT u can try and check out the sucess stories on the MS webpage.
http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/itruns.htm


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*

Well,good luck,remember,the hard paRT IS REALLY THE TUNING,NOT ALL THE SAUTERING AND BUILDING OF IT.........Why confuse yourself with more mess? Install it,power it up and tune it,easy.


----------



## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco G60T* »_i bet there are a few ppl out there putting down more than 2x then stock with MS! Personaly i dont know anyone since i joined not that long ago.
BUT u can try and check out the sucess stories on the MS webpage.
http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/itruns.htm 

Yes I've been to that site before but it looks like nothing more than text.
I too am a little perplexed about there being so many people that are all the sudden not only capable of building/ tuning a fast car but also capable of literally building their own system from the green board up.................I guess I dunno.I'd just like to see some.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

I'm waiting for UMS myself. I want to try it out. If its how I think it is going to be its going to be a bad systems whe it comes out. I like the while digital dash thing. I was goin got do something like that with tec 2. 
Actually the megaview is exactly what I wanted to do. drive and watch the settings. plus have a built in buzzer if it goes lean, knocks, or something fails. I was goin got get my cousin to try to build a viewer like that when UMS comes out that does that. but have a screen like tec 2 where is shows whats going on in one screen. 
the one thing I hate with MS is that u have to use resistors for low impedence injectors. call me crazy but I don't like doing that.


_Modified by tyrone27 at 7:32 PM 1-20-2004_


----------



## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_the one thing I hate with MS is that u have to use resistors for low impedence injectors. call me crazy but I don't like doing that.

Then get the flyback board and you can also get the daughter board too








The Fly back board will allow you to run Low-Z injectors
and the Daughter board will give 2 more power outputs that u can use for whatever you want


----------



## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_Yes I've been to that site before but it looks like nothing more than text.
I too am a little perplexed about there being so many people that are all the sudden not only capable of building/ tuning a fast car but also capable of literally building their own system from the green board up.................I guess I dunno.I'd just like to see some.

I know there quite a few ppl that popped up on the list as up and running but never made it to the list!
anyway ...
im gonna be on that list and im for sure gonna break the 2X stock output!


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*

i'm mostly waiting for UMS. because its going to support spark and fuel. plus I'm hoping it will support GM coil packs.


----------



## SleepyTT (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Now that i read though. So whats the best bang for the buck ?


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Sleepy007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sleepy007* »_ So whats the best bang for the buck ?

That all depends on your goals. CIS is the best bang for your buck. Digi 1 is pretty cheap if you don't plan on upgrading all the time. UMS will probably be the cheapest standalone but the cheapest now is SDS. I guess that's the best B4YB.
Jason


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_i'm mostly waiting for UMS. because its going to support spark and fuel. plus I'm hoping it will support GM coil packs.

didnt you just say you wnated TEC3?
i hate these threads of "whats better" no one can say whats really better, its liek a "my dik is longer than yours" kinda thing, thers super fast cars running from sds to autronic, its all choice, 
just like quaife vs peloq, gimma a break!!


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

UMS is for a jeep in my garage. its been sitting because the previous owner crossed some wires or something but he melted the whole engine harness. so me, my pops, and my cousin is going to install UMS in it. somewhat a family project. plus I had MS but never installed it so I want to see how it is. 
TEC 3 is going in my scirocco. its basically one of the last steps in the project. I still have to get a bigger turbo, rebuild the motor, suspension, trannys (020 break). then i'm getting tec 3 when I hit the 15psi mark on 10:1 compression


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Screw the TEC3. How many times I gotta tell ya... get DTA!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Angular)*

lol. got the specs of both finally.
DTA E48 EXP MAIN FEATURES 
Full Ignition control and amplification for up to 4 cylinders distributorless, 8 cyl with distributor
Full fuel control of up to 16 injectors (staged and switchable on RPM in 2 banks )
Amplified Coils Support NEW
Compensation for air temp / water temp / MAP or barometric
pressure on fuel AND ignition
Closed loop Lambda control
Turn off closed loop above TPS & RPM NEW
Full turbo pressure control variable by RPM with overboost protection
Manifold Pressure as main load NEW
Full single gear traction control (launch control)
Steering wheel button controlled start line RPM limit
Full power shift cut
Temperature dependant Idle speed control via PWM valve
(shared second bank of injectors)
Auxiliary output switchable on RPM / water temp / manifold pressure
(shared turbo control)
Dedicated shift light output
Dedicated Tacho output
Two stage main RPM limiter
Dedicated fuel pump control
Full startup fuelling map
Improved idle speed control NEW
Throttle transient enrichment map
Self test facilities for ignition and injection
Sensor diagnostics and peak recording
Real time mapping, no EPROM's required, PC only or PC+Dyno Control Box
Voltage in warning limits during Mapping NEW
Software programmable for most crank wheels (BMW, Ford, GM, Porsche, Renault, Honda Blackbird, Rover, VW, 361, 602 etc.)
All main 3D maps (20 x 14) have user programmable break points on
throttle and RPM
Max. RPM 14,000
SPECIAL ORDER OPTIONS
We do specific setups for the following at the time of ordering
Harley Davidson V Twin
Distributor Triggering (eliminates Launch Control)

TEC 3 features:
Standard features built in to the TEC³:
PC programmable and configurable for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, cyl. engines and Rotories with a 12 cyl.and 6 cyl dual plug option 
Operate in Open or Closed loop 
Run True Sequential, Phased Sequential or Simultaneous Injection with individual cylinder trim 
Configurable for TBI, MPI, TPI and individual throttle bodies
Additional Injector Output Drivers built-in.. Run Low or High impedance injectors
Full 150 mJ of Spark Energy directly to the plugs without misfire
New Dual Rev Limiters with ‘Triple Smooth Technology’.. 1st step retards timing to a negative -12º degrees.. 2nd step cuts coil current in half.. 3rd step coil current and fuel are cut-off.. all three steps occurring within milliseconds! 
Waste Gate (Boost Control), Nitrous Control with up to 4 stage retard available 
Four Programmable GPO’s (General Purpose Outputs) to control or activate VTEC, Shift Lights, Water Pumps and Fans, A/C Compressor, Torque Converter and more.
New Programmable Adjustable Electronic Tachometer Output
Uses primarily GM type sensors
Diagnostic monitoring with codes issued through Check Engine Light
Easy to install bolt-on Trigger Wheel and Mag Sensor Kits available for many applications
Made in the USA 

New On-Board Data Acquistion Adjustable Sample Rates up to 100 samples per second Simultaneously record data from up to 25 inputs including: Air/fuel Ratios, Injector Duty Cycle and Pulse Width, RPM and Throttle Position, Gear Position, MPH, Boost (manifold pressure) and much more! 
Additional configurable Digital and Analog Input Channels View Multiple Data Graphs side by side or Graphs may be overlayed for comparison Graphic Screen Displays may be Printed and 
Data may also be exported to a Spreadsheet program for further analysis Data Logging can be started and stopped manually using a switch, or the system can be configured to automatically start and stop via values pre-set by the user


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

TEC3 does wdieband lambda now


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*

yup forgot to add that one.


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

DTA doesnt seem to support low impedance injectors?


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*

it supports it u just have to run resistors to use low impedence injectors.


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

yeah but there is more to it that just that, the signal is different.
High imp 'saturated' injectors use a constant voltage
low imp 'peak and hold' injectors have a peak of high voltage to snap them open then a sustained lower voltage to keep em open. It aids the fidelity at lower duty cycles.
maybe someone else can explain it better


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mrveedubuk* »_yeah but there is more to it that just that, the signal is different.
High imp 'saturated' injectors use a constant voltage
low imp 'peak and hold' injectors have a peak of high voltage to snap them open then a sustained lower voltage to keep em open. It aids the fidelity at lower duty cycles.
maybe someone else can explain it better

I think you explained it fairly well, actually. DTA's injector drives are not ideal for low impedance injectors but it *will* work. You just wind up with a lot more more power dissipation (heat) in the injector because it sustains a fairly high constant current level for the entire time the injector is on. This could shorten the lifespan of the injector, in theory, but I don't know if in real world application it matters very much.


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

cheers!
id be happier with a autronic/tec3 system that is designed for use with high current draw injectors.
just my 2p


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mrveedubuk* »_cheers!
id be happier with a autronic/tec3 system that is designed for use with high current draw injectors.


But why? High impedance injectors work just fine for many applications. Peak and hold is great but if you just have "peak" and no reduced "hold" current the performance is the same. It just puts more heat into the injector which may not even be a big deal considering the injector is designed to withstand heat from the engine anyway.
I'd have to run some calculations on actual current and power dissipation to tell you how much additional power dissipation is going on without "peak and hold" drivers.



_Modified by Angular at 2:04 AM 1-29-2004_


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

unfortunately i could only with high imp injectors up to 42lb, when i needed 72lb


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*

72 lb/hr is a very large injector. What's your application?
I'm pretty sure I can get 52 lb/hr in high impedance and be set for 400 HP easily (with 4 cyls) and probably more with 4 bar of fuel pressure.


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_72 lb/hr is a very large injector. What's your application?
I'm pretty sure I can get 52 lb/hr in high impedance and be set for 400 HP easily (with 4 cyls) and probably more with 4 bar of fuel pressure.


Im building a 2.0 20v with a GT30 which i hope to boost up to 30psi


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mrveedubuk* »_
Im building a 2.0 20v with a GT30 which i hope to boost up to 30psi

Nice. Maybe I should nag the chief engineer at DTA about the low impedance injectors and use your case as an example!


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (Angular)*

yeah id be up for that, and it wouldnt be that hard to implement!
Plus my local DTA dealer is so close i could throw a tennis ball from my back garden and hit his roof


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*

Well, I spoke with [email protected] and his recommendation is staged injectors, which the P8Pro supports. The reason being that with such a large injector (as 72 lb/hr) it will not work well at all at low fuel delivery levels (idle). With staged injectors you can run two 36 lb/hr injectors on each cylinder and get excellent low-end resolution (firing just one of the injectors per cylinder) while still being able to dump massive amounts of fuel on the high end (firing both injectors).
Those large injectors require 4 amps peak and 1 amp hold current. DTA doesn't recommend more than a constant 2.4 amps through a low impedance injector so, in my opinion, it is not suited for larger low-impedance injectors. The smaller low-impedance injectors only require 2 amps peak so you could run those without a problem with DTA just using ballast resistors to control current.
The only other alternative would be to buy or build an external peak and hold driver. There's one on the market for $375 USD but for that price you could do the staged injectors which is the superior solution. It's also possible to build one yourself for under $100 USD in parts if you have the know-how.
This may not be what you wanted to hear, but I hope you fully understand the pros and cons of choosing very large injectors.
Regards,
Bradley


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (Angular)*

ah thats a shame, ill just stick my original plan and run autronic.
A friend of mine is running 2 injectors on a OEM setup


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*

Wow... sweet manifold!







*drool*








I would move the second set of injector seats a little closer to the stock injector location though and angle it more to fire at the intake port. Hope it works out well for your friend.
DTA is a great system and if I lived in the UK, I'd be all over it. Autronic is nice too but you will still have issues with getting a proper idle running such large injectors.
Bradley


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (Angular)*

Just a little anecdotal evidence:
My setup 1.8l 16v turbo, 52lb injectors (rated at 52 lb. at 55 psi) running 35 psi rail pressure (you do the math to figure out what lb. injector they are at that pressure - less than 52 thats for sure). Running Commander 950 race, injectors firing once every two full engine revolutions, my pulsewidth at idle is something like 1.8 - meaning the injector is turning on for 1.8 milliseconds. Can't go much lower than that, also can't go much lower than 35 psi for rail pressure either. Car idles fine at approx 12:1 a/f.
Not sure what would do if I was running 72 lbs since I wouldn't be able to turn down the rail pressure or pulsewidth very much. I guess it would just idle real rich. Staged injectors may be the way to go, but there has to be someone running these on a 4 banger. I'd love to see what the tune specs are.

_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_Wow... sweet manifold!







*drool*








I would move the second set of injector seats a little closer to the stock injector location though and angle it more to fire at the intake port. Hope it works out well for your friend.
DTA is a great system and if I lived in the UK, I'd be all over it. Autronic is nice too but you will still have issues with getting a proper idle running such large injectors.
Bradley


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

the Momentum Motorsport RWD mk2 2.0 20v was running 72lb Siemens on a Autronic setup.
I have emailed them asking how it ran.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mrveedubuk* »_the Momentum Motorsport RWD mk2 2.0 20v was running 72lb Siemens on a Autronic setup.
I have emailed them asking how it ran.

I'm pretty sure Shawn Van Neer (and his crew) built that car and he no longer works at Momentum. His new company is Kinetic Motorsport and your best bet is to call him on the phone as he isn't a great typist and therefore doesn't like to deal with e-mail unless he absolutely must. I can tell you right now that he'll be selling you on the Autronic because that's what he likes and sells to his customers!
Kinetic's number is (604)882-9962 and it should be like dialing the USA I think. They are Pacific time zone (just two hours North of where I live).
Bradley


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (vfarren)*

cool setup. I have a 1.8 16v, t3 40trim 42/.48, conquest intercooler. I'm goin got try that one inject per ever two engine cycles.


----------



## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

sorry it was actually "momentum tuning" that created the car.
Tim


----------



## Unit00 (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco G60T* »_I know there quite a few ppl that popped up on the list as up and running but never made it to the list!
anyway ...
im gonna be on that list and im for sure gonna break the 2X stock output!
















Hey scammer where's my money?






















Don't buy from this guy. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (vfarren)*

hi. I tried the 2nd engine cycle with tec 2 and it had good and bad results.
Good= start up and idle was PERFECT when tuned.







and I do mean perfect. started on the first crank and idle was smooth as butter. off boost driving was better then cis-e and good gas mileage.
Bad= couldn't get it rich enough for a full 5psi. thats the only problem. with holley commander 950 race it might be totally different.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Mrveedubuk)*

Check out this thread on the (unofficial) DTA Users Forum:
http://dtaforum.psycode.com/viewtopic.php?t=124
One of the VR6 guys running DTA says he knows of someone using 90 lb/hr injectors with the P8Pro successfully. Obviously that suggests it CAN be done. With a dealer nearby, I would definitely take a close look at a local product like DTA before an overseas one like Autronic. (Gee, by that logic I should be running TEC3, eh?







)
Bradley


----------



## drivrswntd (Dec 8, 1999)

*Re: (Angular)*

I'm going to be running 83 lb/hr siemen's with an autronic sm2 board. Steve who runs aussie imports has no problem idling them with his car. I'll let yall know how it goes.


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (drivrswntd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drivrswntd* »_I'm going to be running 83 lb/hr siemen's with an autronic sm2 board. Steve who runs aussie imports has no problem idling them with his car. I'll let yall know how it goes.

I have tuned cars with 120 lb/hr injectors and they will also start and idle fine. Getting them to idle lean is the challenge.








I have found that you must run full sequential to get even close to clean idle with bigger than 72 lb/hr injectors. 
-Rich


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (eiprich)*

LOL. I still can't lean out the 52lb injectors enough at idle with out stalling the injectors. trying to get a 15:1 AFR at idle.


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: (Angular)*

DTA is a great system and if I lived in the UK, I'd be all over it. Autronic is nice too but you will still have issues with getting a proper idle running such large injectors.>>>
My setup lat year was RC 1100 cc/min injectors running 45 psi rail pressure... the Autronic SM2 drove them as low as .7ms which was enough for a 14.7-1 air/fuel..... there arent many systems that will do that. sequential fuel is your friend in any case.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_
I'd just like to see some.

Yeah, most of the Megasquirt installations are just guys that like screwing around with making the whole thing.
But, the level of support is awesome and the capabilities that have been developed for a pretty simple processor is amazing (at least to me!)
The most outstanding example though is this:
http://www.yacoucci.com/galler...1_IMG
409 Hp out of a 1000 cc turbo Hayabusa with fuel controlled by Megasquirt.
I'd say that's a little more than double the output of a stock Hayabusa


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*

Justin, we're working on a few MS projects these days. I have a unit built for my Rabbit project, soon I'll working on another one to use for Joe's TBI 454 pickup, and yet another for the dirt bike. I've been trying to figure out how to squirt my teevee but it's harder then it looks.







I should have the Rabbit running in about a month with a stock 16v.. and then built up from there. Stay tuned if you're interested.


----------



## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

see i want to megasquirt on my 16v... but i don't wanna make a hack job of wiring it all. I'd like to run megasquirt & spark, and basically rip out the whole motronic brain. 
i don't even mind if this means buying an msd box, i just want it to be clean.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (peteM3)*

I'm sure you can do it VERY cleanly if you take your time. That goes for any system not just MS. With the relay board it makes it alot cleaner then without. If you're not looking to spring for the MSD you can get away with a CIS or CIS-e car's ignition amp and wire that up for MSnS.


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (lugnuts)*

That is impressive, .7ms is damn short.

_Quote, originally posted by *lugnuts* »_DTA is a great system and if I lived in the UK, I'd be all over it. Autronic is nice too but you will still have issues with getting a proper idle running such large injectors.>>>
My setup lat year was RC 1100 cc/min injectors running 45 psi rail pressure... the Autronic SM2 drove them as low as .7ms which was enough for a 14.7-1 air/fuel..... there arent many systems that will do that. sequential fuel is your friend in any case.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (vfarren)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vfarren* »_That is impressive, .7ms is damn short.


I wonder how their injector drives work. Low impedance injectors typically take 4 amps to open and 1 amp to hold. Maybe they're running more current to open quicker.
DTA recommends no more than 5 ohms total per injector, which translates to 2.4 amps at 12V. This limit is designed to protect the injector since DTA does not employ a peak and hold injector drive. This will give you slightly worse performance in terms of opening and closing times when running low impedance injectors but apparently some people are still getting away with it (or so I've heard).


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*

why hasnt anyone mentioned 034EFI?Designed for Audi/VW instead of ricey hondas


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_why hasnt anyone mentioned 034EFI?Designed for Audi/VW instead of ricey hondas

I thought that 034 EFI was designed specifically for 5 cylinder Audi engines.
As for ricey Hondas, the only leading engine management system I've seen lately that caters to Japanese imports is AEM with their plug and play harnesses. Most other standalone systems are fairly generic and universal.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_
I thought that 034 EFI was designed specifically for 5 cylinder Audi engines.
As for ricey Hondas, the only leading engine management system I've seen lately that caters to Japanese imports is AEM with their plug and play harnesses. Most other standalone systems are fairly generic and universal.

you see thats what everyone thinks.
There is a Stage I which is designed for Volkswagen engine or any 4 cylinder engine that has 2 + 2 configuration.(firing order 1-3-2-4).Javad is the most helpful guy and you can ask him any question under the star(be realistic).Being that it was designed on an Audi gives it a plus.......what was Motec and SDS and all these systems deisgned on?







(cough cough...JDM's)


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_...what was Motec and SDS and all these systems deisgned on?







(cough cough...JDM's)

I personally don't think SDS was designed for JDM cars. There website really proves it.
Jason


----------



## zootz (Nov 12, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

SDS Great service and tech response. I have an em4e and wanted to know how to wire the Jacobs nitrous NMM. They sent me a diagram same day. I tried to get an answer out of Jaccobs for weeks.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (zootz)*

noticed something today that really interesting. the New tec 3 doesn't have the feature that allows u to fire the injectors every 2nd or third revolution as tec 2 does. why did they delete this feature?


----------



## bug man63 (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (tyrone27)*

There is another one of those standalone ECU units for you to check out the name of it is emerald and it from the UK the web site address is http://www.emeraldm3d.com checking out and let me know what you think I'd be interested to know what you think on the web site and facilities that the unit office. This unit is also available in the US for more info e-mail me


----------



## Fullybuilt_AAA (Dec 3, 2003)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (bug man63)*

HALTECH is the shizzle but DTA and SDS are even more the shizzle


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (Fullybuilt_AAA)*

web site is forbiden


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Stand alone engine management debate (KILLACABBY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KILLACABBY* »_ Any way the fastest import in canada runs DTA ( the formula honda altech civic almost 800hp and 9.63 in the quarter) and if its goood enough for them its good enough for me. But thats just my opinion









I see this thread is a few years old.....currently, the fastest Canadian import is Paul Bhawan's Civic running 8.66, which I believe is the quickest NHRA record for FWD Hot Rod on gasoline. And he's using Accel DFI. More info:
http://www.pasmag.com/news/get.asp?ID=662
Very interesting thread BTW


_Modified by Mr Black at 9:03 PM 3-19-2004_


----------



## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

all these systems are so damn close in functionality for a begginning tuner... i'm just trying to figure out what the cheapest system other then SDS (i want a laptop + save maps) is that will run a 20v + gt30r + a2 well. 
i'm looking sortof at DTA's or autronics basic setups... i don't want to spend over 2grand... seeing as how i work part time @ 10 an hour cheaper is betta
how much is the basic DTA setup? roughly? 
autronic, holley, etc...
could some of you guys post up some basic prices i haven't had much luck but tis a little early to start calling people. I'd like to know as i'm considering shopping for a used unit.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (peteM3)*

As far as I can see the Megasquirt is the best option for price/functionality as long as you can solder or know someone who can. I was soo close to ordering the 950 setup and before that it was the SDS. Stuff changed in my life so I can't order the $1000 computer I wanted to a year ago. So I went with megasquirt as it has all the options I need, is cheap, and fully programable. I have $120 into the ecu as of now. I will build a custom case to put the motherboard into. The extra $ that I saved will be put into better things http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

I'm waiting for UMS to come out so I can use it in a jeep I have. Plus last time I was on the mailing list there was a guy that was selling MS units prebuilt for $200


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

While all of you guys are trying to figure out which is "better",check this out..........SDS 16VT,2950lb.car with driver hitting 12.82 @ 113 last night,NO dyno tuning AT ALLl.........this is my first stand alone car I ever built and did not have to fly in Bill Schimmel to tune it........I did it MYSELF,the install AND tuning.......think about it







did I mention 17k+ miles on same bottom end with SDS? If you have never tuned a car before,and think it is so easy,good luck with the laptop systems.......unless you are "hiring" somebody to do it for you.....I am speaking on behalf of the do it yourselfers like myself and many others. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif SDS,simple so you can concentrate on tuning,guys here take weeks sometimes months to even install and fire up laptop cars,I can install and tune in 1 day..........


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

in 6 months if everything goes right I'll have a product to elimate the laptop factor in tuning most laptop systems.







Not saying what i'm going to build for copy right reasons but u guys have to wait.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (peteM3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peteM3* »_all these systems are so damn close in functionality for a begginning tuner... *i'm just trying to figure out what the cheapest system other then SDS* (i want a laptop + save maps) is that will run a 20v + gt30r + a2 well. 
i'm looking sortof at DTA's or autronics basic setups... i don't want to spend over 2grand... seeing as how i work part time @ 10 an hour cheaper is betta
how much is the basic DTA setup? roughly? 
autronic, holley, etc...
could some of you guys post up some basic prices i haven't had much luck but tis a little early to start calling people. I'd like to know as i'm considering shopping for a used unit. 

http://www.034efi.com
cheaper than SDS and programmable via a pC


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

I never knew "cheap" was the equivalent of "powerful and reliable"


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

there system stage IIc which will run a 1.8t individual coil pack is 1650... which is right about the same cost as DTA if i'm not mistaken. 
i'm looking at it right now and it sure looks like the only 034 unit that will run a 1.8t AEB in stockish form is the stage IIc.... 
i'd rather not revert to a distributor. but yeah i'm checking out this 034 setup quite seriously... i need a realistic price for DTA or another setup... i'm not sure though what would be involved in adding a distributor again or if the 034 would even run the stock coilpacks... i'm looking on the applications page and the one 20v turbo i see on there doesn't look like its running them. 
i don't see why it would be any harder to tune by laptop then by SDS programmer, on the contrary i've looked at the laptop programs and found them very simple to use, even the anarchaic dos black screen with bar chart ones. To me i see the SDS programmer as a disadvantage and don't like the idea of having to squint and try to see the tiny little screen and its data output.. perhaps i am a visual person but i like the amount of visual information you get on a laptop.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (peteM3)*

Have fun!I leave controller plugged in all the time and tune as I drive,if their is any fault or hiccup,I easily tune it out with a push of a button,that is why my car drives so dam well,15's afr light cruise,14's freeway cruise,13's under light load/ boost,12's afr in the teens boost and 11's afr 20+psi.....................all done while cruising on the street,power and drivability...........if you could ride in my car you would know what I am talking about!!


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

i'm really thinking about doing the Ic with some ford EDIS coils... or something similar. 
i don't think i'd make use of individual cylinder timing... i just can't see it lol. motors never gonna rev that high either so whatever.


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (peteM3)*

Will DTA work on a MK4 VR6?


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

ugggh the fact that none of these EFI companies will openly print MSRP makes comparison shopping very difficult. kind irks me. 
my dads company gets away with charging 3500 per speaker yet we still print msrp. wtf. 
anyways... rrggh. trying to figure out how much the perfect power units are.


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## vr6chris (May 26, 2003)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tekstepvr6* »_Will DTA work on a MK4 VR6?

yes. will work on any car from 1 cyl. to 16 cyl.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (peteM3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peteM3* »_ugggh the fact that none of these EFI companies will openly print MSRP makes comparison shopping very difficult. kind irks me. 
my dads company gets away with charging 3500 per speaker yet we still print msrp. wtf. 
anyways... rrggh. trying to figure out how much the perfect power units are. 

did you ask Javad about it?


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tekstepvr6* »_Will DTA work on a MK4 VR6?

It should work but you need to keep in mind that the factory ECU may need to be left intact because on newer cars the electronic systems are so integrated. I shudder to think what would happen if you tried to completely removed the factory ECU. I would be very hesitant to install DTA or any standalone system on my 2002 S4 2.7T for example. I would seriously investigate software and equipment to allow me to program the factory ECU before spending $2K on standalone.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Angular)*

one of my favorite stand alone posts and there has been a lot of talk lately regarding management so...
bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

i remember this


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## Mrveedubuk (Mar 10, 2003)

Ok all you brits, look into MBE. Standard fitment on Noble M12 and TVR.
Support is good, and its a very high quality product.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_i remember this

you better


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

Let there be more. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## webbee04 (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: (RAZZOR)*

Could you supply me with some info. on the wolf ems? Trying to do one on a VRT but have questions on sensors and a base tune if you have one that I could work off of?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (webbee04)*


_Quote, originally posted by *webbee04* »_Could you supply me with some info. on the wolf ems? Trying to do one on a VRT but have questions on sensors and a base tune if you have one that I could work off of?

Send a pm to Lugnuts with your questions.


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