# Best street handling upgrades



## warpedhalo (Sep 23, 2010)

Honestly, I'm just making this thread cause I'm bored. I have no intentions on buying anything right now, but I would love to in the near future so doing research! But I need rods and whatnot first...

Anyways, for those who have some experience with handling upgrades, what ones made the biggest differences (other than coilovers)? How much of a difference do front/rear sway bars make on say turn in? How thick is too thick to ride too rough (I remember reading that too thick and it's like a go cart over bumps)? Do they help understeer?

What about rear control arms? I'm not even really sure what these do, are they worth it? What do they help? Are they something to put on a daily driver? Do they make the ride rougher?

What about these defcon control arm bushings or the solid ones? I imagine the solid ones would transfer some noise... But what exactly what do they help? What is the effect on a smooth ride quality?

What are the cheapest lowering springs that won't ride like a go-cart?

What are the cheapest shocks/struts that will ride well with lowering springs?

Do I need some kind of fancy camber plates to run lowering springs (I did on my last car).


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Defcons and a rear sway greatly reduce understeer. I just added a 22mm rear sway and it's pretty easy to get the ESP to step in and the tail to step out now.  And I haven't gotten around to the Defcons yet. Don't need rear arms unless dropped more than 1.5 inches I believe, I haven't crossed that bridge yet but that's the consensus. They are used to correct rear camber when lowering so you don't chew your tires up. You don't need camber plates, but having them in the front and the arms in the rear will allow you to dial up whatever camber you desire and increase the all out handling limits. Most springs by themselves are cheap,


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## warpedhalo (Sep 23, 2010)

Aparently the "solid ones" I was talking about were called sperical bearings like below:

http://www.h2sport.com/products.php?productid=1211


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

You shouldn't have to remove your front sway at all. Maybe if you're on air but for coils I don't think so.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> Defcons and a rear sway greatly reduce understeer. I just added a 22mm rear sway and it's pretty easy to get the ESP to step in and the tail to step out now.  And I haven't gotten around to the Defcons yet. Don't need rear arms unless dropped more than 1.5 inches I believe, I haven't crossed that bridge yet but that's the consensus. They are used to correct rear camber when lowering so you don't chew your tires up. You don't need camber plates, but having them in the front and the arms in the rear will allow you to dial up whatever camber you desire and increase the all out handling limits. Most springs by themselves are cheap,


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

I've personally driven Max's TT and I can say that it's one of the best handling TT's I've driven. 

His ideas go against almost everything I've been told about modifying a suspension setup but after driving his car and comparing it to mine (which has all mentioned modifications aside from front camber plates) I'm a believer.

I'll likely remove my front & rear H&R bars this summer and figure out a camber solution for the front of the car since I can already run a lot in the rear.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

DougLoBue said:


> I've personally driven Max's TT and I can say that it's one of the best handling TT's I've driven.
> 
> His ideas go against almost everything I've been told about modifying a suspension setup but after driving his car and comparing it to mine (which has all mentioned modifications aside from front camber plates) I'm a believer.
> 
> I'll likely remove my front & rear H&R bars this summer and figure out a camber solution for the front of the car since I can already run a lot in the rear.


Wait till you drive this thing in kill mode with real tires and power behind it, you will be a real believer.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## TTC2k5 (May 23, 2008)

FWIW, my TT is a dd and I have no intention on tracking it. However, as it was nearly 10 yrs old when I got it and on its original suspension, it needed upgrades/replacements. Cost being a factor too, I decided to do the labor myself and spend the cash on parts and tools. I went this route:

bilstein sport shocks w/eibach pro springs. (cost less than coilovers and lowered just under an inch when compared to stock. (With OEM struts, eibachs will lower about 1.1 inch but the OEM struts/shocks are not matched so their lifespan will be severely shortened.) I needed no camber adjustment parts, again, a significant cost savings. The ride is firm, but not rough. It is not as cushy as the OEM setup but still very comfortable. I doubt I'd have any comfort issues with a cross country drive.

defcon2 front control arm bushing upgrade. very crisp turn ins. smile on my face with every turn of the wheel. I shipped my control arms to Mike Phillips at MCPi for the defcon install as I don't have press and would have had to pay for this install. 10 day turn around and install by the defcon developer. win-win.

new: tie rod ends, ball joints, strut bushings/topmounts, drop links, front swaybar bushings, various suspension nuts/bolts that are single-use.

I estimate the above was about $1300 in parts and tools. Effort documented here:

http://public.fotki.com/TTQ2K2/ 

cheers.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Good reply 20v,
> 
> A couple of things however, defcons don't reduce understeer but effectively improve the steering feel from numb to decently sharp. The icreased feel is what get mistaken for improved front grip but it really isn't, as the overall mechanical G the front can handle has not changed.
> 
> ...


I haven't installed the Defcons, but wouldn't they remove deflection in the front arms at the limits, thereby keeping the tire in the meat of it's curve and not approaching its limit. 

If the rear sway makes the rear loose grip sooner, that's adding oversteer, the opposite of removing understeer. We're arguing semantics here but it moves the car away from understeer and towards the other end of the spectrum. Being that you are dedicated to racing, have you corner weighed the car? I'd love to know the distribution F/R. Done any logging of lateral acceleration to determine understeer gradient with changes to your setup? 

As for removing the front sway, I'm going to disconnect one of the front links to see how it feels. Like I said, this is on my DD, not an auto-x dedicated setup. I just can't stand the plow. I know you're not supposed to remove the sway unless you have enough spring rate to compensate. I don't have front sway dimensions, but what is the arm length you used to get the 50% reduction? Unless it's a lot lower than I'm thinking there's no way an inch made a 50% reduction in effective spring rate.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> I haven't installed the Defcons, but wouldn't they remove deflection in the front arms at the limits, thereby keeping the tire in the meat of it's curve and not approaching its limit.
> The defcons
> 
> If the rear sway makes the rear loose grip sooner, that's adding oversteer, the opposite of removing understeer. We're arguing semantics here but it moves the car away from understeer and towards the other end of the spectrum. Being that you are dedicated to racing, have you corner weighed the car? I'd love to know the distribution F/R. Done any logging of lateral acceleration to determine understeer gradient with changes to your setup?
> ...


The defcons still allow deflection like the recalled bushings but you reach the point where they are no longer deflecting and transfer your steering input into into the tire much quicker. Basically it does the same thing only at a faster rate.

For the rear swaybar effect on understeer and oversteer, to keep it simple look at it as two separate friction circles. One for the front and one for the rear sharing each 50% of the overall traction. When you add that big rear bar, it make the back operate at a higher slip angle and oversteer easier but only by removing some the 50% available grip. So yes you have changed the balance of what end slides first but your overall grip is less(I hope this came out in English)

I have corner weighed my car and balanced it, not balanced it was 1015lf 1039rf 730lr 613rr and 3405 with driver and top down. 

The swaybar rate reduction numbers is comings from a suspension simulation software(actually the program told me how much to add to the arms to get a 50% reduction). If I remember correctly it calculated at x degrees of twist y amount added to the arm gives z amount of rate reduction for your bar dimension. Cool interactive program that does spring rates,shocks forces,body roll at various G forces etc (PM me your e-mail and I'll send you a copy)


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Email address sent in a PM. Of course the Defcons still allow deflection, but no where near as much as OEM post recall arms/bushings. In my studies of vehicle dynamics, for simulation purposes a bicycle model is assumed, and total spring, shock, spring and damping characteristics of the tire, etc are all lumped into a front and rear cornering stiffness. This is plotted out by sampling velocity over a known radius circle and using to plot lateral accelration versus steering angle (assuming you can log steering angle and keep the vehicle on the same diameter circular path). Using this data, and front and rear weight distribution allows you to determine understeer gradient. Obviously this assumes steady state cornering and a few other assumptions, but with the gray area that is modeling tire behavior, its the most reasonable approach. I understand what you're saying about losing grip in the rear when adding a rear sway bar, but the point still remains that if you are oversteering more, you're understeering less. Like I said earlier, you have a dedicated track setup whereas I'm more concerned with making my daily driver more fun for me to drive, and I dislike understeer. :beer:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

20v master said:


> Email address sent in a PM. Of course the Defcons still allow deflection, but no where near as much as OEM post recall arms/bushings. In my studies of vehicle dynamics, for simulation purposes a bicycle model is assumed, and total spring, shock, spring and damping characteristics of the tire, etc are all lumped into a front and rear cornering stiffness. This is plotted out by sampling velocity over a known radius circle and using to plot lateral accelration versus steering angle (assuming you can log steering angle and keep the vehicle on the same diameter circular path). Using this data, and front and rear weight distribution allows you to determine understeer gradient. Obviously this assumes steady state cornering and a few other assumptions, but with the gray area that is modeling tire behavior, its the most reasonable approach. I understand what you're saying about losing grip in the rear when adding a rear sway bar, but the point still remains that if you are oversteering more, you're understeering less. Like I said earlier, you have a dedicated track setup whereas I'm more concerned with making my daily driver more fun for me to drive, and I dislike understeer. :beer:



So what I would be looking at doing if I wanted a DD that would kick ass on the autoX course on the weekend. I probably wont get to an actual race track, but plan on autoXing the car 10-12 times this year. Power mods will be very basic so I want to focus my money on handling and wheels/tires. 


Thanks


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

omerkm1 said:


> So what I would be looking at doing if I wanted a DD that would kick ass on the autoX course on the weekend.


Talk to madmax.


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## raart (Aug 9, 2010)

While this thread is really interesting I am just wondering if someone has any experience with this kit from ECS. 

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-TT_MKI-Quattro-180HP/Suspension/Coil_Overs/ES2142924/

I did have on my 2000 VR6 Jetta very expensive suspension kit (Koni) and it did break my heart after the sale, but I wont make mistake again and install 3k kit anymore and will do the cheap way now (I have another big expense now – a baby!). I just need a good kit for daily driving and a bit lower then now (stock suspension). This one on ECS looks nice but I never had them on any of my previous cars and to be better never heard of them. Need a bit help here.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> Email address sent in a PM. Of course the Defcons still allow deflection, but no where near as much as OEM post recall arms/bushings. In my studies of vehicle dynamics, for simulation purposes a bicycle model is assumed, and total spring, shock, spring and damping characteristics of the tire, etc are all lumped into a front and rear cornering stiffness. This is plotted out by sampling velocity over a known radius circle and using to plot lateral accelration versus steering angle (assuming you can log steering angle and keep the vehicle on the same diameter circular path). Using this data, and front and rear weight distribution allows you to determine understeer gradient. Obviously this assumes steady state cornering and a few other assumptions, but with the gray area that is modeling tire behavior, its the most reasonable approach. I understand what you're saying about losing grip in the rear when adding a rear sway bar, but the point still remains that if you are oversteering more, you're understeering less. Like I said earlier, you have a dedicated track setup whereas I'm more concerned with making my daily driver more fun for me to drive, and I dislike understeer. :beer:


I hear you, terminal udersteer does not make the car fun to drive in the streets. Try diconnecting one of the link to see how you like it, without springs in the high 600s or more, the steering is gonna feel numb and front roll is gonna be too much IMO.
I sent you the suspension calculator, check it out.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

omerkm1 said:


> So what I would be looking at doing if I wanted a DD that would kick ass on the autoX course on the weekend. I probably wont get to an actual race track, but plan on autoXing the car 10-12 times this year. Power mods will be very basic so I want to focus my money on handling and wheels/tires.
> 
> 
> Thanks


With the limited info provided, I would put a set of Dunlop Z1 star specs on stock wheels(245 is what I'd put on them). 

Bilstein Pss is a nicely priced street/track coilover but you also get the proven inverted monotube that can't be beat at that price. 

Keep the stock bars because a simple swaybar mod could land you in classes where you stand no chance on being competitive unless you invest more than what your car is worth in mods.

Also get a good set of pads that has good cold bite and does not overheat before your run is over
I like EBC Red in the front with EBC yellow in the back of the TT(nice even balance with good modulation), you can't go wrong with Hawk HP+ but I still prefer the EBC combo. Carbotech AX6 I believe is a good pad for autocross but I have no first hand experience with them so I can't comment. Freshly bled high temp fluid is also your friend.

Beside that, the only other improvement, without knowing what class you are targetting, is seat time.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> With the limited info provided, I would put a set of Dunlop Z1 star specs on stock wheels(245 is what I'd put on them).
> 
> Bilstein Pss is a nicely priced street/track coilover but you also get the proven inverted monotube that can't be beat at that price.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. I am going to try and run in the "Stock" or "Street Touring" category. I bought the TT with a flash, cat back exhaust and h&r springs already installed so I probably wont try and get it back to 100% stock. In retrospect, I should have just bought a 100% stock car but nice low mileage TT coupe's are very hard to find and this one with the mods was a great deal. 

I am interested to stay within the rules of the SCCA but I also realize that my local autoX club wont be nearly as stringent as the SCCA. 

Maybe this will help, here is a list of my (planned) mods:

neuspeed chip (will be changed to Unitronic I think)
k&n filter panel
h&r springs (will be changed to Bilstein PSS or PSS9 coils)
borla cat back exhaust (will be changed to techtonics or 42DD)

Your suggestions:

brake pads
high temp fluid
good tires (245 but ST is limited to 225 I think?)

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

omerkm1 said:


> Thanks for the info. I am going to try and run in the "Stock" or "Street Touring" category. I bought the TT with a flash, cat back exhaust and h&r springs already installed so I probably wont try and get it back to 100% stock. In retrospect, I should have just bought a 100% stock car but nice low mileage TT coupe's are very hard to find and this one with the mods was a great deal.
> 
> I am interested to stay within the rules of the SCCA but I also realize that my local autoX club wont be nearly as stringent as the SCCA.
> 
> ...



-Scca Stock is basically a stock car engine and drivetrain wise and you can not have a flash but you can run as much tire(DOT r-compound if you want to be competitive) you can squeeze on stock size rims.

-Street touring can have a flash but with no modifications to the boost table(ST specific flash are common in stu evos and sti), tire sizes and wheel sizes are both limited.

With your car the way it is you are already in Street Prepared and you'd need major mods to be competitive. I'd suggest just mod as a street pepared car and just go out and have fun.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> -Scca Stock is basically a stock car engine and drivetrain wise and you can not have a flash but you can run as much tire(DOT r-compound if you want to be competitive) you can squeeze on stock size rims.
> 
> -Street touring can have a flash but with no modifications to the boost table(ST specific flash are common in stu evos and sti), tire sizes and wheel sizes are both limited.
> 
> With your car the way it is you are already in Street Prepared and you'd need major mods to be competitive. I'd suggest just mod as a street pepared car and just go out and have fun.



Ok. I will get my SCCA rulebook out and find a tuner/shop with some autoX experience. 

Thanks!


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## 2001TTransport (Sep 18, 2005)

Thought I'd share my suspension mods... KWV3s(uprated the springs) + spherical tubi front arms + adjustable rears


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Nice se up!

I'd love to run those front arms but the spherical joints makes them illegal for my class.

The GC camber plates are nice but fall short if you are looking for real camber:screwy:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

bagyard bomber airstruts: end thread... best street handling system out there right now:thumbup:ic:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Morio said:


> bagyard bomber airstruts: end thread... best street handling system out there right now:thumbup:ic:


Are you serious?

Show me dyno plots of rebound and compression showing limited crosstalk between the two and with nice digressive valving curves, all that at around or a little above 65% critical damping. Then maybe, you can use those and handling in the same sentence.


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## 2001TTransport (Sep 18, 2005)

madmax199 said:


> Nice se up!
> 
> I'd love to run those front arms but the spherical joints makes them illegal for my class.
> 
> ...


Wth just the GC I ran -2.6 front camber, Now with the tubi arms there is a lot more I could get if I wanted it, the ball joint slots have been expanded and the spherical arms are adjustable in length. In my case I am pretty happy with the current setup, but I don't have to worry about any class restrictions.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Show me dyno plots of rebound and compression showing limited crosstalk between the two and with nice digressive valving curves, all that at around or a little above 65% critical damping. Then maybe, you can use those and handling in the same sentence.


For street I am serious..... Get over yourself.... Opinions are just that... And having a race setup on the street is useless when you should be driving according to the law... Speed limits etc.... Take your racing bs to a track and not on the roads....

And yes I have raced dedicated race cars on a track......


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

2001TTransport said:


> Wth just the GC I ran -2.6 front camber, Now with the tubi arms there is a lot more I could get if I wanted it, the ball joint slots have been expanded and the spherical arms are adjustable in length. In my case I am pretty happy with the current setup, but I don't have to worry about any class restrictions.


I am sure it' s fine for most but after doing the camber curving on the car, 2.6 is about half the static camber needed to keep the tires happy when fully loaded .


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> For street I am serious..... Get over yourself.... Opinions are just that... And having a race setup on the street is useless when you should be driving according to the law... Speed limits etc.... Take your racing bs to a track and not on the roads....
> 
> And yes I have raced dedicated race cars on a track......


Notice how you got ignored Morio. Don't be so angry just because you don't understand what madmax talking about. Handling on the street is no different than handling on a track. If you're talking about ride comfort, we're obviously not all on the same page. Just curious, did any of the dedicated race cars you've driven on a track have airbags? I doubt it.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> Notice how you got ignored Morio. Don't be so angry just because you don't understand what madmax talking about. Handling on the street is no different than handling on a track. If you're talking about ride comfort, we're obviously not all on the same page. Just curious, did any of the dedicated race cars you've driven on a track have airbags? I doubt it.



wow you sure showed me.....:facepalm: I am so embarrassed.... :facepalm:


sorry man.. he started with me ... I didn't say anything about having the best track setup or that his specs for track/autocross was wrong.... I simply answered my opinion on the OP question.... and I apologize if you are sore about it... I meant no harm... I would hate to have an internet tough guy come after me.... if I had boots I would be shaking as I type

and FWIW, TTs aren't a car I would track no matter what mods I would add...... way underpowered and way too heavy... but what do I know, I put bags on mine


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> wow you sure showed me.....:facepalm: I am so embarrassed.... :facepalm:
> 
> 
> sorry man.. he started with me ... I didn't say anything about having the best track setup or that his specs for track/autocross was wrong.... I simply answered my opinion on the OP question.... and I apologize if you are sore about it... I meant no harm... I would hate to have an internet tough guy come after me.... if I had boots I would be shaking as I type
> ...


I don't remember anyone threatening you or even attempting to embarass you (you've done that on your own), but I did notice you didn't answer the question. Race cars don't have airbags. Do you disagree? You made a very opinionated statement that in the eyes of anyone with real world experience just isn't true. No one said you meant any harm, you just threw your two cents out when it wasn't even on the subject at hand because you think the following is cool. 











If that's what you're in to, more power to you, but we were discussing handling in terms of all out cornering ability, not the ability to still ride comfortably while scraping.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

ok man... you win 

apparently you haven't ridden in an airride car... no worries.... go back to your bench racing........ the topic was street not track..... please understand that there is a difference and if you think your racecar TT is ok to exceed the limits that are on the street then I feel sorry for the people that are on the same roads as you



btw, that is my friends car you posted.. I hope you asked for permission:wave:ic:


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

Throwing out your Fagyard recommendation and then proclaiming it to be the end of discussion isnt really the same as voicing an opinion. That is what made you look like a toolbox.
:beer:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

wrparrish said:


> Throwing out your Fagyard recommendation and then proclaiming it to be the end of discussion isnt really the same as voicing an opinion. That is what made you look like a toolbox.
> :beer:


yeah... what a toolbox.... I am currently on my 4th suspension on this car.... from stock, struts & springs (Bilsteins Neuspeed), coilovers (FK koingsports- koni), rear sways, front sway, removed front sway, poly inserts, mk1 arms, etc.......

IMO, hands down the BEST STREET setup is BAGYARD BOMBER Airstruts.... from everyday use, potholes, daily commute, etc the ride quality is fantastic and it handles as good as the coilovers I have had in about 5 different FWD based cars from VAG (mk1, mk2, mk3 and mk4/TT platforms)..........

Race setup maybe not... but street I do know what I am typing about.... have fun guys!!! and if you are ever around my area ask me for a ride and I will show you... simple as that......


BTW, I will be at SOWO so hit me up.... believing is feeling:wave::beer:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> I don't remember anyone threatening you or even attempting to embarass you (you've done that on your own), but I did notice you didn't answer the question. Race cars don't have airbags. Do you disagree? You made a very opinionated statement that in the eyes of anyone with real world experience just isn't true. No one said you meant any harm, you just threw your two cents out when it wasn't even on the subject at hand because you think the following is cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't waist your keystrokes 20v. 
He typed "best street handling" talking about bags, not realizing that best handling is best handling regardless of if it's sitting in your driveway , riding in the streets or on the track. The TT is actually my pregnant wife's daily driver and while it may look mean it's driven every day.

He even made it worse by saying that the TT is too heavy and under powered to used as a track car. My race evo when it was in street prepared form, like the TT now, was heavier with similar power and with it's shorter 95 wheelbase, awd and close to 400 wheel tq on a stock turbo, the TT can do damage.

BTW I respect the law when I drive in the streets, heck how fast can I go with my pos KIA dd. However, owning an FIA road racing license and co-driving a BMW ex-world challenge in scca door to door racing thought me a few things about handling(bags is not one of them).


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## sprockeTT71 (Nov 14, 2010)

madmax.....pm sent. This will be my first year in SCCA and could use some tips.


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## warpedhalo (Sep 23, 2010)

woah, this thread got a lot more replies than I expected. I am looking to do a little to the handling eventually, but probably not like some of you hardcore guys. I live in ohio, and it's pretty much straight road for miles and miles, but occasionally there will be a turn and sometimes I like to take it at cruising speed. My biggest problem with my TTs handling is how much response I get when I turn the wheel. I went from a car that 1/64" of movement in the wheel = you're in the other lane to having to turn the wheel half way around to take a shallow corner in the TT. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but the response is dead in comparison to my other car (which is a 3000gt of all things... a great big car). I expected this TT to be a nimble little thing and it's an elephant. So first and formost I'm after correcting that. Is this problem I'm referring to "turn in" or is that a term best used under more extreme conditions? I assume that understeer is more of an extreme condition thing where the front end wants to push into a turn, oversteer being when the back wants to kick out? Would this problem be body roll's fault? The 3000gt is a big car but it's wide and low... maybe that has something to do with it... what are your thoughts


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Sounds like you need Defcons. And airbags. :laugh: j/k


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

warpedhalo said:


> woah, this thread got a lot more replies than I expected. I am looking to do a little to the handling eventually, but probably not like some of you hardcore guys. I live in ohio, and it's pretty much straight road for miles and miles, but occasionally there will be a turn and sometimes I like to take it at cruising speed. My biggest problem with my TTs handling is how much response I get when I turn the wheel. I went from a car that 1/64" of movement in the wheel = you're in the other lane to having to turn the wheel half way around to take a shallow corner in the TT. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but the response is dead in comparison to my other car (which is a 3000gt of all things... a great big car). I expected this TT to be a nimble little thing and it's an elephant. So first and formost I'm after correcting that. Is this problem I'm referring to "turn in" or is that a term best used under more extreme conditions? I assume that understeer is more of an extreme condition thing where the front end wants to push into a turn, oversteer being when the back wants to kick out? Would this problem be body roll's fault? The 3000gt is a big car but it's wide and low... maybe that has something to do with it... what are your thoughts


IMO, get a proper alignment first.... A slight more toe out should fix your problem...

And as funny as it sounds you will not be disappointed on bags... No matter what the "racers" say.... I just sold my coils for dirt cheap since I will not go back on my TT....

On the street there is nothing that beats the flexible, comfort with handling like the bagyards... Those that disagree most likely have never driven with them....


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

and for those that don't know how air ride handles please see the link:

RideTech Street Car

professional drivers talking about air ride....... and yes my management is ridetech e3pro.....

not saying that the "racers" are wrong with a track setup.. just saying on the street the best I have driven is bagyard :wave:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Morio said:


> IMO, get a proper alignment first.... A slight more toe out should fix your problem...
> 
> And as funny as it sounds you will not be disappointed on bags... No matter what the "racers" say.... I just sold my coils for dirt cheap since I will not go back on my TT....
> 
> On the street there is nothing that beats the flexible, comfort with handling like the bagyards... Those that disagree most likely have never driven with them....


The advise on a proper alignment is a sound one, you should have started with that. Like you mentioned, a small toe out in the front is gonna improve turn in and feel greatly. OP, just make sure you do not go crazy with the toe out as it can kill tires quickly. 

Morio, you are comparing crappy coilovers to the bags and that is where imo you think that they handle great. You should try riding in a car with good coilovers valved properly for the springs, even if the spring rate is high the ride is firm but not bumpy or harsh. For example, I have 685/1150 front to rear in the TT but it rides very well in the streets.

To the OP, get defcons like 20v said and a good alignment as suggested by Morio. The only other thing I would suggest is good tires with stiff sidewalls.Dunlop z1 star spec, is still imo the best all around tire out there.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> The advise on a proper alignment is a sound one, you should have started with that. Like you mentioned, a small toe out in the front is gonna improve turn in and feel greatly. OP, just make sure you do not go crazy with the toe out as it can kill tires quickly.
> 
> Morio, you are comparing crappy coilovers to the bags and that is where imo you think that they handle great. You should try riding in a car with good coilovers valved properly for the springs, even if the spring rate is high the ride is firm but not bumpy or harsh. For example, I have 685/1150 front to rear in the TT but it rides very well in the streets.
> 
> To the OP, get defcons like 20v said and a good alignment as suggested by Morio. The only other thing I would suggest is good tires with stiff sidewalls.Dunlop z1 star spec, is still imo the best all around tire out there.


man I have been there... I have successfully raced FSP sciroccos during the mid 90s...... I understand the most important thing is driver (#1) and alignment (#2) from there tires (hoosiers) place the next important role.... at that time custom high spring rate ground controls and revalved bilsteins were king for the class... my cars (2 roccos 81 s and a 85 8v)were built to ITB class....... so I am not a newbie to suspension and handling

as for crappy coilovers, what I had on my TT is most likely more coilover than the typical TT owner will ever own.... most here own racelands/vmaxx... super low spring rates and monroe quality shocks/struts (like stock)...... so it is legitimate for the topic of this thread... 

Did I ever drive my FSP cars on the roads? Yes.... was it comfortable? no.... did it handle better than my TT in the Streets? no, because with the laws of the road, a suspension for a racecar is way overkill for what you are allowed to do on the streets.....

Do I think the TT is awful for a race car? yes.... I would never race a FWD baised car again.... too much wasted money on trying to get it to handle as good as it's RWD/ or real AWD counterparts

The TT was never meant as a race car and I accept that..... I also can appreciate how others make something out of it... but for real world day to day driving I feel the BEST on the STREET suspension is the air ride...... sorry:wave:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

But whatever you do, don't you dare exceed the speed limit by a single MPH, and don't even take turns at the speed limit. Everyone in a half mile radius may die. 

PS Leave the soapbox street vs track preaching off the forums. You aren't a cop and no one wants to hear it.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> But whatever you do, don't you dare exceed the speed limit by a single MPH, and don't even take turns at the speed limit. Everyone in a half mile radius may die.
> 
> PS Leave the soapbox street vs track preaching off the forums. You aren't a cop and no one wants to hear it.



yeah yeah yeah... please understand there are people on the road who aren't as experienced as you with exceeding the limits of the road or the limits of their car..... so get off of your soapbox....:beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Well you really educated all of us. I thought we were all F1 drivers. :banghead: Seriously, do you feel better about posting things like this?


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> Well you really educated all of us. I thought we were all F1 drivers. :banghead: Seriously, do you feel better about posting things like this?


sorry man I am confused by this post

My car and I will be at SOWO this year, please come up and introduce yourself, we will go for a ride and I promise you that your opinions of air ride will change.....if not the beer is on me... if I am right the beer is on you...:beer:

and if you are on the west coast, I should be at Wuste... and same applies:beer:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

sorry... that offer is for anyone in this thread...... :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Riding with you would not allow me to learn anything about your airbags as we could not use them to enough of their potential on the streets without breaking laws or endangering people, right? :banghead:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> Riding with you would not allow me to learn anything about your airbags as we could not use them to enough of their potential on the streets without breaking laws or endangering people, right? :banghead:


the title of this thread is "best street handling upgrades" which has been my point through out.... so yes you will learn that the air ride handles the street better.... and yes all within the legal limits of the road.... I would not put your life in danger..... if we were on a best handling race setup for the street thread, I would not of posted because racing should be on a track....

so you going to SOWO? you willing to try?:beer::wave:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> the title of this thread is "best street handling upgrades" which has been my point through out.... so yes you will learn that the air ride handles the street better.... and yes all within the legal limits of the road.... I would not put your life in danger..... if we were on a best handling race setup for the street thread, I would not of posted because racing should be on a track....
> 
> so you going to SOWO? you willing to try?:beer::wave:


AHEM.



20v master said:


> If you're talking about ride comfort, we're obviously not all on the same page.


I guess you missed this. 

No, I won't be at SOWO, Helen is boring other than having a beer during lunch inbetween the morning and afternoon sessions of making all four tires squeal and overheating the brakes while often crossing the middle line all in the name of enjoying the north Georgia mountain roads. I can do this any weekend I choose without the inconvenience of admiring airbag'ed cars on stretched tires. Is this the part where you lecture us on how to drive safely again? :laugh:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> AHEM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no lecture on safety driving, do what you want... the invite was extended to you.. and apparently you would rather not experience it and continue to spew what you think instead of what you know...... no worries, if you change your mind I am more than willing to let you experience reality of air ride... then you could make an experienced comment.:beer:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Morio said:


> man I have been there... I have successfully raced FSP sciroccos during the mid 90s...... I understand the most important thing is driver (#1) and alignment (#2) from there tires (hoosiers) place the next important role.... at that time custom high spring rate ground controls and revalved bilsteins were king for the class... my cars (2 roccos 81 s and a 85 8v)were built to ITB class....... so I am not a newbie to suspension and handling
> 
> as for crappy coilovers, what I had on my TT is most likely more coilover than the typical TT owner will ever own.... most here own racelands/vmaxx... super low spring rates and monroe quality shocks/struts (like stock)...... so it is legitimate for the topic of this thread...
> 
> ...


It seems that we'll never agree on the bags vs good coilovers subject, you have your opinion and I respect it.
However, the coilovers you mentioned that you removed from your car are in my book in the same category as the vmaxx crap. To me, Bilstein inverted monotubes found in the pss and H&R, KW v3 and up, Ground control AD, Motons are the only coilovers worth putting in a TT street or track.

Now to say that the TT is not on par with other rwd and awd sport cars is a mistake. Last year on limited r&d and first season, we managed to put the TT in trophy spots in CSP at a national tour and a ProSolo against the miatas. The car will have a 100 lbs of torque more this year, less weight, and LSDs with haldex controler and will definitely give the mighty miata a run for it's money.
Because nobody with the right knowledge has prepped a TT, that doesn't mean it is inferior.

Fsp rocos are cool, I love light race cars with no power as I own an EP Saturn sc1 and they can be fun on the right courses. Do you still have your Fsp cars?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> no lecture on safety driving, do what you want... the invite was extended to you.. and apparently you would rather not experience it and continue to spew what you think instead of what you know...... no worries, if you change your mind I am more than willing to let you experience reality of air ride... then you could make an experienced comment.:beer:


And apparently you want to discuss ride comfort rather than handling ability. If you change your mind, feel free to offer us some evidence or facts regarding handling limits and I'd be more than willing to listen. :beer: FYI, comparing stock suspension to air bags on muscle cars doesn't really prove your point.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Do you guys ever sleep ? I really thought I was the only bastard with no life!


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

There's plenty of time to sleep after you die.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> It seems that we'll never agree on the bags vs good coilovers subject, you have your opinion and I respect it.
> However, the coilovers you mentioned that you removed from your car are in my book in the same category as the vmaxx crap. To me, Bilstein inverted monotubes found in the pss and H&R, KW v3 and up, Ground control AD, Motons are the only coilovers worth putting in a TT street or track.
> 
> Now to say that the TT is not on par with other rwd and awd sport cars is a mistake. Last year on limited r&d and first season, we managed to put the TT in trophy spots in CSP at a national tour and a ProSolo against the miatas. The car will have a 100 lbs of torque more this year, less weight, and LSDs with haldex controler and will definitely give the mighty miata a run for it's money.
> ...


I agree we will disagree on the crappy coilover part...no worries on that... I liked the Koni's, especially when I would co drove a mk3 vr6 in GS ... the struts and shocks worked well with the under rated factory springs of that generation gold. My TT handled well with the FK coils... it had enough dampening to absorb the typical street but still feel confident in corners..... I never tracked the TT with the FKs (koni's)... so for track I would not know.... but street it was great!!! 

What I was saying about the TT vs RWD.AWD counterparts wasn't that it couldnt be made to compete but that it wasn't worth the increase of $$$ to *ME*, Miatas are cheap and parts for them are too..... if I had a budget for a car my money would go further in development with something other than a TT ... kinda like you are racing a BMW wheel to wheel and not a TT... I am glad you are successful with the TT... and I never said you didn't know what you were talking about.... but this thread was about the street... which I feel my opinion is as valid as yours....

I stopped racing in the early 2000's ...... I have 4 kids now and I am trying to get my older two sons into carting.... so my "race car" funds are directed to that...... I do however have a scirocco still.. not one that I raced but one that my son and I are building for him when he drives in a year....


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> And apparently you want to discuss ride comfort rather than handling ability. If you change your mind, feel free to offer us some evidence or facts regarding handling limits and I'd be more than willing to listen. :beer: FYI, comparing stock suspension to air bags on muscle cars doesn't really prove your point.



man I am offering you real world experience and you are not wanting it... so, what else am I going to do???


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> Do you guys ever sleep ? I really thought I was the only bastard with no life!



no life here.. I have too many kids..... so the only down time I get is at night


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

I am about to have my first son in a few months, and I hope I never have to stop racing because of kids draining the budget. 

Morio, if anything the TT is competitive with a fraction of the budget the high rollers are spending in csp. Besides the initial cost of purchase the TT is cheap to mod and run.All competitive miatas are trailered with a million update/backdate mixing best bodies with best engines ,standalone ecu etc. 

I got a chance to look at Bill S car last year, everything is custom and that car must have 50 grand in parts easy and still no jacket. So don't be fooled you gotta pay to play, TT or not.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> man I am offering you real world experience and you are not wanting it... so, what else am I going to do???


Define the word handling and we'll go from there. Did you fix your CV boot yet?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v, did you get a chance to look at the suspension calculator I sent you?


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## warpedhalo (Sep 23, 2010)

Ok, about the coilovers vs bags... would either handle better than the stock setup? I assume both handle better, and the argument is how much better correct? But for me, better is good enough most likely... so wither one would do. What about ride comfort and price? That's what I'd be most interested in if they are both an upgrade to handling. Average joes like me who think that they can drive and like to have fun have no idea what its like to race. If you put me in a track car right now I'd wreck it within the first lap. What I'm trying to say I guess would be that even if there is a difference in the maximum g force obtainable in a turn beteen the bags and the coilovers, would the average guy like me ever really even test that out? I don't have the guts to take a corner so fast that my tires squeel and are on the edge of losing grip, there are too many trees around if I get it wrong lol. So just offering my opinion since it's a heated subject it seems, as a normal guy, better handling is better handling... which one will ride smoother and which one can be had for less $?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

It seems the mk1 forum has really come back to life lately opcorn:

My 2¢ on street handling is that the stock suspension sucks; far undersprung and cheap dampeners. I've put in a 19mm rear sway, Haldex Blue, and was getting a suspension together until the clutch started to go. On the street and in the snow it handles pretty well - you get decent rotation with much better power delivery, but it still wallows and the ride is the same. I ultimately think the TT can handle very well for the street, but it can be outclassed at the track. I'm completely fine with this as my TT is currently a DD facepalm, but even when it is a weekend car I don't see myself going totally nuts suspension-wise. I would only get a very aggressive suspension if I lived somewhere else (straight roads + snowbelt).

Springs/Struts vs. Coil-overs
Haldex Blue Install and Impressions


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> Define the word handling and we'll go from there. Did you fix your CV boot yet?


man, from your posts I can tell you wouldn't listen anyways.... so I hope to see you at SOWO and you define it yourself with real experience....:beer:

and the CV boot was fixed before I went on the roads.....since my autocross days, I keep spare half shafts ready to go........


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

warpedhalo said:


> Ok, about the coilovers vs bags... would either handle better than the stock setup? I assume both handle better, and the argument is how much better correct? But for me, better is good enough most likely... so wither one would do. What about ride comfort and price? That's what I'd be most interested in if they are both an upgrade to handling. Average joes like me who think that they can drive and like to have fun have no idea what its like to race. If you put me in a track car right now I'd wreck it within the first lap. What I'm trying to say I guess would be that even if there is a difference in the maximum g force obtainable in a turn beteen the bags and the coilovers, would the average guy like me ever really even test that out? I don't have the guts to take a corner so fast that my tires squeel and are on the edge of losing grip, there are too many trees around if I get it wrong lol. So just offering my opinion since it's a heated subject it seems, as a normal guy, better handling is better handling... which one will ride smoother and which one can be had for less $?


*IMO*, in real world day to day commuting, driving around town, etc.... Bagyard air struts is the answer....... people can mock and think I don't know what I am talking about but if you haven't experienced it then you don't know... simple as that...... Coilovers are great, but for me after the bags (which are custom valved Bilsteins to handle the ever adjusting spring rates of the continental double bellow bags), I will not go back to coils on my TT.... My answer is more valid than a competitive race setup.... and yes "street handling" has to take in count the road hazards and believe it or not comfort....ic:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> I am about to have my first son in a few months, and I hope I never have to stop racing because of kids draining the budget.
> 
> Morio, if anything the TT is competitive with a fraction of the budget the high rollers are spending in csp. Besides the initial cost of purchase the TT is cheap to mod and run.All competitive miatas are trailered with a million update/backdate mixing best bodies with best engines ,standalone ecu etc.
> 
> I got a chance to look at Bill S car last year, everything is custom and that car must have 50 grand in parts easy and still no jacket. So don't be fooled you gotta pay to play, TT or not.


Congrats on the son! and I wish you luck keeping that money tree blooming!:laugh:

My older boys would do pre-walks with me which was a blast... they always helped and continue to on anything I do in the garage......so enjoy it!!:beer:

I am glad you figured out a way to be competitive for little cash..... that is a great accomplishment.... I still wouldn't race a TT.... I am done racing FWD biased cars....


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

My only airbag experience is in cars that have their sway bars removed (so they could go lower) so I cannot comment on how good they handle since all those cars handle like garbage. I can say that the general idea of compressed air vs. metal springs- to me it seems like metal springs win in stiffness and control qualities.

The only thing I can comment on about the airbag setup for just driving (not looks) is the complexity of it. The compressors and distribution blocks/control valves, the air tank, running air lines to each corner & the controller. In a car like the TT with a small amount of storage space already airbags are illogical for most people who daily drive their cars. You would be spending more money and sacrificing space.

For a good street handling setup that's also forgiving I'd look to a set of used billsteins from a mk4 R32. You can spend about $600 and have a setup that will last you for a long time. I bought two sets of coilovers used (KW V1's & H&R Streets) and they lasted me and I resold them for what I got them for later because they still worked perfectly.

For a street only car I'd specifically recommend the PSS's because they handle very well and absorb crappy qualities of the roads extremely well. I live in NY, specifically Long Island- by my house these are extremely twisty roads but an hour away is Queens, Brooklyn and NYC + if you want to leave the island you need to go over the worst roads in this world. When I'm in my friends cars with PSS's I literally close my eyes and cringe when they are about to hit bumps my car would break in half going over and they fly over them with ease.

Although Max's & 20v's posts are related to racing situations I think the message is that you don't need many expensive modifications to make your car handle well. You could spend $1k and have a car that's a blast to drive. Used coilovers, half a kmac kit, used 19mm rear sway bar and a performance alignment.

PS: Anyone know if the mk4 R32 came with a 19mm sway bar stock? I know the European TT came with one before the recall.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Morio said:


> *IMO*, the bags (which are custom valved Bilsteins to handle the ever adjusting spring rates of the continental double bellow bags)


Let me explain Morio:
The statement quoted is where the bags are flawed, you should know with your experience that a shock can only be valved to handle a small window of force rate efficiently.

Any conventional shock can only be valved to make the bag ride smooth and cornering performance will be outside of the valving curves and suck at life.

The same goes for putting progressive rate springs on coilovers.The shock valving will only be right for a portion of that progressive rate and everything outside that would be garbage. That is why KW v3 do poorly when asked to really handle, they are valved for comfort and handling is outside their range of valving.

The shocks in the bag combo can not defy the laws of physic, I don't care what anyone says about them.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> man, from your posts I can tell you wouldn't listen anyways.... so I hope to see you at SOWO and you define it yourself with real experience....:beer:
> 
> and the CV boot was fixed before I went on the roads.....since my autocross days, I keep spare half shafts ready to go........


You can keep asking me to come to SOWO, I already told you no and why. You're not going to convince me to come out and sample your uber bags. If you had spare axles, why didn't you change it while installing your bags? My guess is you couldn't wait to show off your dope pics of your subframe touching the ground. 



madmax199 said:


> Let me explain Morio:
> The statement quoted is where the bags are flawed, you should know with your experience that a shock can only be valved to handle a small window of force rate efficiently.
> 
> Any conventional shock can only be valved to make the bag ride smooth and cornering performance will be outside of the valving curves and suck at life.
> ...



Finally, we got to the point. Do the bags handle better than stock? Sure. Do you ever know what your spring rate, camber, caster, and alignment are really at after you pull up in a parking lot and drop to the oil pan to show off? No, you don't. Everyone thinks we're talking about track only setups, but I'm speaking from daily driving experience. And yes I've tackled road courses several times. If you think bags are great for comfort and handle up to your liking, great. They aren't the best by any means though, not to mention, more expensive. And like Doug said, I have no desire for a compressor, air tanks, lines, management, etc in my car. Adding a rear sway, Defcons, sport springs and good shocks and tires, with the alignment is all still way cheaper than bags. Not to mention hacking the frame rail for axle clearance? Give me a break.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> Let me explain Morio:
> The statement quoted is where the bags are flawed, you should know with your experience that a shock can only be valved to handle a small window of force rate efficiently.
> 
> Any conventional shock can only be valved to make the bag ride smooth and cornering performance will be outside of the valving curves and suck at life.
> ...


I agree... but same is said with your setup... it is matched at a very high spring rate, you have no other range unless you switch out springs and shocks with a softer or stiffer set to match how that car will handle with that track, road, etc...... so for the ever changing surfaces, road qualities, corner types, etc yours wouldn't be better off then mine...... the main difference is I can on the fly up or down my spring rate to accommodate what I need at that time... For track not as good as something dedicated and I never said it was a racing setup that I have..... but for street I do fine and I wouldn't go back to coilovers or springs and strut combo...



20v master said:


> You can keep asking me to come to SOWO, I already told you no and why. You're not going to convince me to come out and sample your uber bags. If you had spare axles, why didn't you change it while installing your bags? My guess is you couldn't wait to show off your dope pics of your subframe touching the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL man, you are just being silly.... Do you know what your camber caster is after driving daily??? you do know that it changes right??? you hit a pothole, railroad tracks, etc... things change..... as well as things change with compression of travel... Do you know what yours are?

You have not driven a car with air ride... so please don't act like you know.... simple as that... I have driven the different setups and my preference is BAGS..... sorry... you don't know..and that is fine.... don't act like you do.

as far as frame C notching... that is not required for bags and you know this... so it is a mute point..... 

and since you love going through my threads and trying to make fun of my car... where is the build of yours?? I would love to see the end all be all suspension master at work on the 20vmaster ride....:beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Morio said:


> I agree... but same is said with your setup... it is matched at a very high spring rate, you have no other range unless you switch out springs and shocks with a softer or stiffer set to match how that car will handle with that track, road, etc...... so for the ever changing surfaces, road qualities, corner types, etc yours wouldn't be better off then mine...... the main difference is I can on the fly up or down my spring rate to accommodate what I need at that time... For track not as good as something dedicated and I never said it was a racing setup that I have..... but for street I do fine and I wouldn't go back to coilovers or springs and strut combo...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're not familiar with the terms static vs dynamic are you? :banghead: I think you meant "moot," not "mute." I don't claim to be a suspension master, just a 20v master.  I don't go through your threads, just the ones you want people to look at by putting them in your sig. :laugh: You could go on and on about how I've never had sex with a male so I don't know how good it is, but I still wouldn't want to know. I'm not making fun of your car, we have the same car(s). I am pointing out that you said earlier you don't have a budget to race a car, yet you have a set of $2700 wheels for sale, and how much into your 4th suspension setup? Your priorities are different, you want comfort and to be able to scrape. The rest of us want to corner better. Different strokes. You're just convinced you have the best end all be all, and it's simply the best for you. :thumbup:

"Got dem bags, SMOKEYYYY!!!!!"


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

20v master said:


> You're not familiar with the terms static vs dynamic are you? :banghead: I think you meant "moot," not "mute." I don't claim to be a suspension master, just a 20v master.  I don't go through your threads, just the ones you want people to look at by putting them in your sig. :laugh: You could go on and on about how I've never had sex with a male so I don't know how good it is, but I still wouldn't want to know. I'm not making fun of your car, we have the same car(s). I am pointing out that you said earlier you don't have a budget to race a car, yet you have a set of $2700 wheels for sale, and how much into your 4th suspension setup? Your priorities are different, you want comfort and to be able to scrape. The rest of us want to corner better. Different strokes. You're just convinced you have the best end all be all, and it's simply the best for you. :thumbup:
> 
> "Got dem bags, SMOKEYYYY!!!!!"



LOL nice Friday reference!! :laugh::laugh::laugh: and thanks moot 

on the street, this suspension handles the best I have driven on the street.... take it for what you will..... it corners great!! and for daily driving I highly recommend them.....and on the "*street*" I am positive I would keep up with you in the corners  on the track maybe not:thumbup:

Are you interested in my wheels?? shoot me an offer!!!


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html


Good read, but a little vague. Gillespie's Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics is a book I'd pick up if you want to really get into the inner workings of modeling suspensions.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> The same goes for putting progressive rate springs on coilovers.The shock valving will only be right for a portion of that progressive rate and everything outside that would be garbage. That is why KW v3 do poorly when asked to really handle, they are valved for comfort and handling is outside their range of valving.



So is this why everyone recommends Bilsteins??


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

omerkm1 said:


> So is this why everyone recommends Bilsteins??


I would say no because most of those recommendations are comming from people that do not have the expertise to realise the difference. Some brands are just popular with certain communities, V-tek-yo crowd like ground control, Bimmers are into AST/ohlin/bilstein etc.

The reason I recommend the Bilstein shocks used in coilovers is because the shock has been tried and proven a winner. 

-Consistent valving between units, you don't need to be looking for matched sets like Konis(oops did I spill the beans).

-Inverted monotubes with great heat resistance and beefy durable design when compared to the competition

-Rebuild/revalve and customer support available in the US at a fair price.

I can go on and on about them and that is why I opted to run a custom valved set in my car, vs something more exotic . You would have to spend twice as much to get the performance that they offer when valved right for the right spring rate. Advance design and Motons are still pimp if you have the tools and knowledge to set them properly.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> I would say no because most of those recommendations are comming for people that do not have the expertise to realise the difference. Some brands are just popular with certain communities, V-tek-yo crowd like ground control, Bimmers are into AST/ohlin/bilstein etc.
> 
> The reason I recommend the Bilstein shocks used in coilovers is because the shock has been tried and proven a winner.
> 
> ...



Ah money.... It solves almost any and all problems. I should have just bought an R8 so I wasnt thinking about messing with the car.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

R8's are near silent. You would have needed an exhaust at least ; )


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

thanks for the info madmax, I've been debating what to pair my Eibach springs with, I'm going to call Bilstein :thumbup:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

DougLoBue said:


> R8's are near silent. You would have needed an exhaust at least ; )



:laugh:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

l88m22vette said:


> thanks for the info madmax, I've been debating what to pair my Eibach springs with, I'm going to call Bilstein :thumbup:



Yeah, big thanks Max. I have learned quite a bit about setting up the TT.


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## TTC2k5 (May 23, 2008)

l88m22vette said:


> thanks for the info madmax, I've been debating what to pair my Eibach springs with, I'm going to call Bilstein :thumbup:


I have the bilstein/eibach combo now and it is awesome. but be advised, you will only get about a 0.8 inch drop. Eibach advertisea a 1.1inch or so drop but that is with stock springs. the bilsteins are a little stiffer so they don't compress as much as the cushy oem springs. Install here:

http://public.fotki.com/TTQ2K2/

cheers


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

TTC2k5 said:


> I have the bilstein/eibach combo now and it is awesome. but be advised, you will only get about a 0.8 inch drop. Eibach advertisea a 1.1inch or so drop but that is with stock springs. the bilsteins are a little stiffer so they don't compress as much as the cushy oem springs. Install here:
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/TTQ2K2/
> 
> cheers



Thats a pretty expensive combo, is there a reason you went that direction rather than coilovers?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

TTC2k5 said:


> I have the bilstein/eibach combo now and it is awesome. but be advised, you will only get about a 0.8 inch drop. Eibach advertisea a 1.1inch or so drop but that is with stock springs.


I'm fine with that, I run the front bellypan and have all-year type weather where I live, I'll make up for it with fat tires


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