# car wont lay out?! - mkiv content



## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

hey guys, So I ran into a little bit of a dilemma over the weekend with my car. My goal was to lay subframe come monday morning, unfortunately thats not the case. 

I already had a passenger side frame notch but i knew my subframe and tierods were still holding me up from accomplishing ultimate lowz. so this weekend i broke out the angle grinder and started trimming the subframe. 

i also took out about a 1/4" on each side for the tie rods while i was under there. 

threw the wheels back on (8.5x18 215/40) and aired the car out... it was sitting about 1/4" lower but still definitely not laying out. 

I could drive the car completely aired out and nothing up front was rubbing (axles, tires, tie rods, pinch welds - all cleared) yet it still wouldnt sit on the ground... 

Ive got airlft XL fronts which i thought were pretty easy... I was hoping you guys could shed some insight as to whats going on. 

every body is telling me to just get TT spindles/control arms, but id like to avoid that at this time.











car in question:


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## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Are you sure you're not out of travel on your bags/struts? I know on my setup I can't go any lower because I'm running bags over coils and my strut bodies are too low to allow me to lay frame. In the rears my shock bodies are short enough, but my shock shafts are too long.

I realize you're using dedicated air struts so this should be something that's not a problem, but since I'm not familiar with the MKIV platform (I drive an MKV) that could be something to look at.


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

darcness said:


> Are you sure you're not out of travel on your bags/struts? I know on my setup I can't go any lower because I'm running bags over coils and my strut bodies are too low to allow me to lay frame. In the rears my shock bodies are short enough, but my shock shafts are too long.
> 
> I realize you're using dedicated air struts so this should be something that's not a problem, but since I'm not familiar with the MKIV platform (I drive an MKV) that could be something to look at.


thats a very good point, but i dont believe its the issue for a couple reasons. 

1. Ive seen many many cars layed out on the same struts with the same platform. 

2. when aired out at 0 psi and i begin to fill the bags, im not getting upward movement until around 5-6 psi, meaning i think the car is resting on something, i just dont know what. :facepalm:


Ive taken A LOT of material off the subframe around the bolt on both sides, and its the only thing i can think of that would be stopping it still. 

the only thing left to trim would be the inner flange where the control arm is "stamped" there is a thin "lip" around the inner edge that might be catching on the subframe bolt... 

anyone else done this? (shave the lip outline in red... only thing i can think of)


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## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

That's what I was thinking as well, but it's just me thinking out loud. 

On my own car what I plan on doing is actually taking the bags off and just running only the struts without springs or anything else on them. That way I can find out what the lower "physical" limit of my car is and what my bags are capable of doing. To me that seems the easiest way to figure out what's holding me. In your case the fronts obviously you can't do this since you're running an air strut. One of the VERY few advantages of BOC I guess.

Hopefully some other people can help you out.


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

darcness said:


> That's what I was thinking as well, but it's just me thinking out loud.
> 
> On my own car what I plan on doing is actually taking the bags off and just running only the struts without springs or anything else on them. That way I can find out what the lower "physical" limit of my car is and what my bags are capable of doing. To me that seems the easiest way to figure out what's holding me. In your case the fronts obviously you can't do this since you're running an air strut. One of the VERY few advantages of BOC I guess.
> 
> Hopefully some other people can help you out.


:laugh:i appreciate the input, Im hoping some other people chime in on what i could do, as im at a loss. 

that lip i mentioned on the control arm is about the only thing i can think of, but i cant take any more material off the subframe around that bolt. 

the tie rods have PLENTY of clearance. so no issue there... notch is clearing with no issues, and pinch welds are out of the way.

(taken from "Low Done Right DIY" - ive taken off even extra material than whats shown here... ive circle in red)










this is where im thiking the problem lies, i cant take any more off around the bolt as its flush and the head is right there. hence why i think that stamped lip is holding me up....


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## najob08 (Apr 28, 2008)

Looks like its sitting on the ground where the dogbone is no?


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

najob08 said:


> Looks like its sitting on the ground where the dogbone is no?


nope, thats been shaved down pretty much flush, i know in the pic it looks like that though.

definitely not on the ground unfortunately


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## Burth (Oct 15, 2010)

Make sure the air struts are sitting all the way down on the spindle,
This was holding me up,


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

Burth said:


> Make sure the air struts are sitting all the way down on the spindle,
> This was holding me up,


I can check that pretty easily. 

as far as i know, they are as seated as far down as the lip will allow. :beer:


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## Burth (Oct 15, 2010)

How about the pench welds?

Here you can get more ideas!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5446987-DIY-Low-done-Right


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

Burth said:


> How about the pench welds?
> 
> Here you can get more ideas!
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5446987-DIY-Low-done-Right


Ive done everything in that thread lol.


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## Tofik (May 7, 2007)

check your drivers side, i lay frame but sometimes if the ground is uneven i cant lay because the drivers side frame is laying on the axle.. when i air my car out i can feel that the drivers side stops and the passenger side goes another 1/4in 

getting my drivers side notched asap because it pisses me off:beer:


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

Tofik said:


> check your drivers side, i lay frame but sometimes if the ground is uneven i cant lay because the drivers side frame is laying on the axle.. when i air my car out i can feel that the drivers side stops and the passenger side goes another 1/4in
> 
> getting my drivers side notched asap because it pisses me off:beer:


both axles have plenty of clearance 

I know this because i drove down the street at 0psi and absolutely nothing was rubbing unless i cut the wheel to turn.

its weird, and i keep coming back to the subframe because the car stops going down around 5 psi, and i can feel it stop even though the bags still have a couple psi to deflate.


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

So I just double checked all the clearances between the control arms and subframe, and as far as i can tell (with the car aired out) there is plenty of clearance. 

the only thing left i can think of is control arm bushings.. which are just the regular OEM busings no polyurethane or anything here. 

i really dont get whats going on, i wish i had an alignment rack or something i could air the car out and lift it. :banghead::facepalm:


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## Burth (Oct 15, 2010)

so weird,
When I had 18s I was laying frame easily, 215/35/18 like 7 psi left
Oem 20th control arms oem bushings!

Now with R32 control arms, spindle and 17s i lay frame and still got like 20psi left on the bags.


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## Tofik (May 7, 2007)

x_GTI_x said:


> both axles have plenty of clearance
> 
> I know this because i drove down the street at 0psi and absolutely nothing was rubbing unless i cut the wheel to turn.
> 
> its weird, and i keep coming back to the subframe because the car stops going down around 5 psi, and i can feel it stop even though the bags still have a couple psi to deflate.


yea but when i air out on uneven ground i can still roll at 0psi but i know that my frame is on the drivers side axle.. its laying on it and i can still roll and not feel a thing

do you have a go pro? set it up and you can see exactly whats going on.. thats what i did.. and oem bushings should have no affect , i had no problem on them and now have the r32 ones and still no problem


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

Burth said:


> Make sure the air struts are sitting all the way down on the spindle,
> This was holding me up,





Tofik said:


> yea but when i air out on uneven ground i can still roll at 0psi but i know that my frame is on the drivers side axle.. its laying on it and i can still roll and not feel a thing
> 
> do you have a go pro? set it up and you can see exactly whats going on.. thats what i did.. and oem bushings should have no affect , i had no problem on them and now have the r32 ones and still no problem


So this will probably make you guys laugh, and make me look like an idiot... But I found the issue.

The struts have about an inch and a half on each side to slide further down into the knuckle, I can't believe after all this cuttin and trimming I didn't notice it. 

Burth, good call. Now I just need a way to really spread that damn knuckle, I tried with the spreader tool and that barely widens the thing enough for anything... Any ideas how to realllllly widen that thing? 

I can't believe I was that close this whole time :facepalm:


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## little mikey (Mar 23, 2005)

x_GTI_x said:


> So this will probably make you guys laugh, and make me look like an idiot... But I found the issue.
> 
> The struts have about an inch and a half on each side to slide further down into the knuckle, I can't believe after all this cuttin and trimming I didn't notice it.
> 
> ...


this usually works, and bfh









~mikey m.


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

little mikey said:


> this usually works, and bfh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh: bfh. 


so just a cold chisel should do it... Ill probably spread it with the tool then smack that thing in there. 

thanks alot dudes... ill post an update within the next couple days (hopefully on the ground):beer:


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

x_GTI_x said:


> So this will probably make you guys laugh, and make me look like an idiot... But I found the issue.
> 
> The struts have about an inch and a half on each side to slide further down into the knuckle, I can't believe after all this cuttin and trimming I didn't notice it.
> 
> ...


Just pull the struts out and grind off more of the powder. The finish on the front struts is very thick and we grind it down almost to bare metal when we do an install. Before you reinstall the struts, put some anti-seize on the lower portion. This will make it easier to remove the struts if you ever have to pull them back out. Just ask Fasttt600 about this :laugh: :beer:


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Just pull the struts out and grind off more of the powder. The finish on the front struts is very thick and we grind it down almost to bare metal when we do an install. Before you reinstall the struts, put some anti-seize on the lower portion. This will make it easier to remove the struts if you ever have to pull them back out. Just ask Fasttt600 about this :laugh: :beer:


funny you should mention taking the finish off as that was my next thought if i couldnt get the knuckle wide enough.

I noticed last night, the area where the strut is actually in the knuckle is pretty much bare metal at this point, then it stops and there is a lip from the powder coat being slightly higher than the actual surface,

im thinking some heavy grit sand paper, anti-seize and a cold chisel will make this thing pretty much " hot dog down a hallway" status. :laugh::beer:


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## Burth (Oct 15, 2010)

1 scrape some paint off from the bottom of the strut like 4 inches all around,

2 slide it in,


3 make sure the car is on towers, this should have been number one 

4 once you slide the strut in the knuckle, put the jack under the control arm or spindle, jack up the spindle little by little once you see the strut all the way in,
Then you spread the knuckle with the jack still doing pressure, you'll see is a lot easier. 

make sure you ad wd-40 or Grease.


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

x_GTI_x said:


> im thinking some heavy grit sand paper, anti-seize and a cold chisel will make this thing pretty much " hot dog down a hallway" status. :laugh::beer:


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## JuiceCrewClint76 (Aug 7, 2012)

x_GTI_x said:


> both axles have plenty of clearance
> 
> I know this because i drove down the street at 0psi and absolutely nothing was rubbing unless i cut the wheel to turn.
> 
> its weird, and i keep coming back to the subframe because the car stops going down around 5 psi, and i can feel it stop even though the bags still have a couple psi to deflate.


im jealous you can drive at 0psi and not have crazy bind issues, i bind in a straight line at 33 psi :laugh:


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


>


LOL! :laugh::thumbup:




JuiceCrewClint76 said:


> im jealous you can drive at 0psi and not have crazy bind issues, i bind in a straight line at 33 psi :laugh:


lol, dont be, not much to miss out on.

at 0 psi there is no suspension travel, so your front tires end up absorbing all the shock and the car starts bouncing like crazy off any little imperfection on a flat road. 

anyting over 45 is kind scary. :laugh:


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

I just put a coin or two inbetween the spreader and the knuckle. This gave it the extra mm's that it needed. But I didn't have a fancy shmancy spreader tool. Just a flat head screw driver.


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

Niagara_V_Dub said:


> I just put a coin or two inbetween the spreader and the knuckle. This gave it the extra mm's that it needed. But I didn't have a fancy shmancy spreader tool. Just a flat head screw driver.


ive tried shimming the spreader tool with a couple coins on the side, believe it or not, it actually squeezed right through the coins... :laugh:


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## DGK_KGD (Nov 11, 2010)

when you trim you tie rods, do you grind down the tie rods themselves or do you try to grind the arch above them? Also are you laying lip? I am about a 1/4" higher then your LCA but my lip is still just about 3/4" off the ground.

Thanks,
Jordan


would have p.m'd you but your inbox is full


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

x_GTI_x said:


> ive tried shimming the spreader tool with a couple coins on the side, believe it or not, it actually squeezed right through the coins... :laugh:


Yeah, I killed some currency getting it to work right. I think it was a nickle and a quarter or something. Just got to experiment with it, I had no choice cause I was a tard and didn't have that tool and had to get creative.
Or you could swing by home depot and find some steel washers that wont crush.


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

DGK_KGD said:


> when you trim you tie rods, do you grind down the tie rods themselves or do you try to grind the arch above them? Also are you laying lip? I am about a 1/4" higher then your LCA but my lip is still just about 3/4" off the ground.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jordan
> ...


I am not laying lip, ive got about 3/4" to go as well.

i believe this weekend once the frame is on the ground the lip will be damn close if not on the ground. 

and honestly id wait to see if you even need to notch tie rods, get everything else out of the way before cutting into actual frame lol. and yes you notch above the rod not the rod itself.:beer:


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

Tie rod notches are best done after you've exhausted all other options. No sense in cutting up the frame multiple times if all you needed was a single notch. :beer:


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## x_GTI_x (Apr 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Tie rod notches are best done after you've exhausted all other options. No sense in cutting up the frame multiple times if all you needed was a single notch. :beer:


yup^ :beer:


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