# R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v???



## FlyersGLI7 (Feb 24, 2003)

I was told the 3.2l is a direct swap for our 2.8l's, and that it flows incredibly better. So put simply:
Can it be done?
How difficult?
How expensive? (i'm guessing very!!!)
HP gains? 
R32 Head/264 cams/cam chip, I would think this setup would produce a nice HP gain??? 


_Modified by FlyersGLI7 at 11:54 PM 8-13-2004_


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## [email protected] (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v??? (FlyersGLI7)*

1 wont work
2 no reason... bore is a bit greater and so sealing would be of concern to me.


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## 2002gtibluvr6 (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v??? ([email protected])*

the R32 motor is basically a bored and strocked 2.8l higher compression and what not, thats how it makes more power its not cause the head is somehow superior its basically the same head just slightly different and the blocks are different *different cooling and oil passages*


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## BigBlockBug (Oct 7, 2003)

*Re: R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v??? (2002gtibluvr6)*

what about the crank? I heard a while back about someone trying to drop and r32 crank in a 24v. never saw whether or not it would work? Seems like it wouldnt but just out of curiosty any one know?


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## [email protected] (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v??? (Neu Bug)*

according to VW, no it wont work... maybe someone will have enough money to waste and try..


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## FlyersGLI7 (Feb 24, 2003)

*Re: R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v??? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_according to VW, no it wont work... maybe someone will have enough money to waste and try..

well, not me, I don't have that kinda cash right now, but it would be enticing if it did work....


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## BadassVW (Oct 16, 2002)

*Re: R32 Heads on a 2.8L 24v??? (FlyersGLI7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FlyersGLI7* »_
well, not me, I don't have that kinda cash right now, but it would be enticing if it did work....








you're (we're/I'm) crazy for dumping the money I have on a STUPID FWD platform. It's fun and all and when compared to 90% of what's out on the street, it's pretty impressive BUT...a used E36 BMW would have been a much 'smarter' route if you want to do a euro performance car... Much, much, much better platform.


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## platinumdub-18t (Jul 1, 2008)

BLAST FROM THE PAST hahaha


So this thread is 10 years old... last night my buddy and I did this swap -- 2.8L BDF 24v block mated to an R32 head. Forged JE 2.8L pistons and Carillo rods. Was absolutely nothing between head/block which needed moddification, however the only high-tensile head studs we could find were Raceware, and those were not specifically for this block -- had to have them backed-out about 14mm from the block to be long enough for the R32 head (which is a bit taller). Still over 20mm threads on each end, so no worries.

Now that 10x years have passed, this is actually an affordable swap, and yes the R32 head does flow a fair bit more, and yes the 2.8L 24v block is stronger with the thicker walls, etc (R32 block is good too). This swap makes sense for a 24v 2.8 which has a bad head and needs mending, or alternatively, makes it a bit cheaper for rebuild of a boosted R32 and allows for more aggressive boost levels...


Lessons learned so far:

1. R32 head bolts (oem) are a smaller diameter than the BDF 2.8L 24v ones.... need to use the 24v BDF head bolts (or alternatively Raceware headstuds).
2. Timing chain kits are identical in part call-outs
3. R32 spark plugs are very narrow and you need to use R32 versions, not 24v BDF ones (big deal, eh).
4. R32 has a much larger oil cooler core on the filter housing than the 24v BDF block (or any other VW engine I have seen) --- use this for more stable oil cooling temps  would make a decent upgrade for any boosted VW engine of the 06x and 02x engine familes (and probably more)
5. Harnesses are "FUNCTIONALLY" identical between R32 and 24v BDF --- take your pick.
6. When buying internals, stick to the 24v BDF equipment. Headgasket needs to be R32 or oversized 24v BDF as well.
7. Either oil pan works on the BDF block.
8. CLUTCHED.... (combined learning for other 24v cars too)... R32 / BDF 24v clutches and pressure plates "All bolt-up"... HOWEVER they are NOT designed to work together. The difference is in the flywheel axial offset and pressure plate spring design. You need to keep an R32 pressure plate with an R32 flywheel, and BDF pressure plate with a BDF flywheel... There is a 3mm difference. You CAN successfully bolt them together and drive the car around, however you will either have a loose gap at the concentric throw-out bearing, or extreme pre-load on it and destroy it... ask me how i know. I had a new R32 clutch disk and pressure plate mounted on a 24v Southbend single mass flywheel (and tried with 24v dual mass too - same results), and it melted and cracked the CTOB --- squeeleed like a bastage and I found i was riding on the stationary internal cup on the CTOB when removed. In the other direction, an R32 flywheel with 24v pressure plate yeilds disaster as you will have open space between the CTOB and pressure plate fingers --- it will not be fully compressed. The clutch disks have different hub-spline offsets to the disk face and DO cause interference. Summary --- no hybrid clutch combos unless you are prepared to modify them. 3mm is the difference in stack height for a fully compressed flywheel/disk/pressure plate set between the two, that stack height difference is taken up by the R32 flywheel being offset 3mm in the difference.... don't EFF with it.
9. Engine mounting is identical as with all mk4 cars.
10. There are 2x versions of 24v BDF blocks out there -- both called BDF.... the difference (only one i can see) is that one of the rear mounting holes up at deck height has one hole about 1.0" out of position -- its the one with the centering hollow pin which sucks too. I believe it is a difference between automatic and manual cars IIANM. R32 blocks are all the same there, so to be safe, stick with a manual BDF block to ensure this lines up.


I am sure there is more. There is also very little info on the googlemachine about this swap still. We have done a fair bit of trial by fire, as we both are heavily experienced with VR6's and myself with 24v's --- we navigated a lot of the parts selection with lots of research.

Any requests please drop me a message - we are learning every day


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## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Just going to ask the question here as that was an amazing read but got confused on the clutch thing.

So I can use either complete R32 clutch with flywheel, or only 24V clutch with Flywheel (BDF), as they are not interchangeable due to the 3MM offset? Just to be clear.

-Charles


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

I did this swap a year ago and I just used my same FS Stage 1+ clutch that I had on before the swap. I am in the process of a DIY for this swap. Just gotta find the pics I took


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## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

That would be killer!

-Charles


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

Currently sourcing a arp head stud kit for people doing the conversion


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

Why do that when 034 Motorsports already have what u need


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

Because 7 (irc notes are at home) of the studs aren't of the ideal length when fitting an r32 head. R32 uses longer studs.

And as I'll be shooting for 800bhp+ I don't want to be backing studs out to just make do.


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

They hand pick them out. Trust me they r arp studs. Perfect length for the swap


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

2003gtivr62.8liter said:


> They hand pick them out. Trust me they r arp studs. Perfect length for the swap


Sorry I assumed you meant they're standard 2.8 kit, if that's the case that'll save me a lot of hassle 

Thanks


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## Gary_808 (Jan 2, 2014)

Ps just been in touch with them, 
They're kit is for a standard 2.8 which isn't ideal they can accommodate with race ware components so back to plan a.


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## 04glst (Jun 30, 2014)

*Amazing*

That was an excellent. I'm really new to the vw tuning and was impressive. I'm thinking about getting a 03 VR6 GLI.


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

It will be a good choice!!!!!! We r a good group willing to help out!!!!!

At least in this forum


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## cdsmk4vr (Jul 16, 2013)

How r u liking that setup 2003gti? What u have is pretty mucn exactly what i want to do.. how do u like the na power with the 3.2 head and tt cams? I really want to pull the trigger on a 3.2 head i can get right noe but am a bit worried about fitting it.. have seen so many contradicting answers.. some say no.. others say yes with modification.. others say yes direct fit.. something i have read that u dont mention is that the valaves are larger on the 3.2 so the seats need to be replaced to allow clearance.. any pics or part sources to help me do this would be super appreciated!


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

cdsmk4vr said:


> How r u liking that setup 2003gti? What u have is pretty mucn exactly what i want to do.. how do u like the na power with the 3.2 head and tt cams? I really want to pull the trigger on a 3.2 head i can get right noe but am a bit worried about fitting it.. have seen so many contradicting answers.. some say no.. others say yes with modification.. others say yes direct fit.. something i have read that u dont mention is that the valaves are larger on the 3.2 so the seats need to be replaced to allow clearance.. any pics or part sources to help me do this would be super appreciated!


I really enjoy the head swap!!!!. Power all the way thru redline. Pushing 222whp & 190wtq. It surprises friends all the time. 

Honestly I bought the swap off of here. Had everything I needed except the rubber fuel lines. They were a bitch to find. I had to call HS Tuning to have them special order it. 
The head was a normal swap. Literally took of the 2.8 head off and put the 3.2 on. Had to buy arp studs for the swap. U can use a lot of the 2.8 parts. It is a pretty straight forward job. No modifications to the head were done besides port matching.
Nothing was done for seats. No need to replace the seats for clearance. 

If you need advice message me.


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## cdsmk4vr (Jul 16, 2013)

*thanks!*

Thanks man! I probably will be messaging u if i need any more insight


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## platinumdub-18t (Jul 1, 2008)

Charles Devine said:


> Just going to ask the question here as that was an amazing read but got confused on the clutch thing.
> 
> So I can use either complete R32 clutch with flywheel, or only 24V clutch with Flywheel (BDF), as they are not interchangeable due to the 3MM offset? Just to be clear.
> 
> -Charles


you only need to eff around with clutches if you are changing your transmission from FWD to AWD. yesterday i measured the distance from face to crankshaft's flywheel mounting surface to the engine's tranny flange on an R32 3.2 24v block, a BDF 24v block and a 12v AFP/AAA block... all are identical. the R32 flywheels position the starter ring about 1/4" further out from the block than the rest of the 02m (FWD) transmissions (not sure about 4-cyl TT style trannies, but likely the same).

RE: Headstuds for 24v VR6 BDF specific.... they don't exist or list them from ARP, even if you telephone ARP sales and ask for them. Raceware headstuds for 24v VR6 MUST be backed out to get enough length to run with an R32 head (at least first gen R32 BJS heads... cannot comment if there have been any variations on this in mk5/audi realm). 034 sells a pieced together set or authentic ARP bolts - this is the thing to get imho now.

A mate and I just finished building a 2.8L/R32 head forged/ARP'd engine with a CTS turbo 6262 kit in a mk4 GLI (originally 1.8t) that was swapped to 4-motion and R32 powertrain. We installed a multi-plate / twin disc clutch made for a 24v/R32 application. Big problems. the inner disk only has 1/2 spline engagement. The crankshaft bolts we used (tall-head, 12-point drive, OEM bolts) caused an interference with the twin disk's rivets. We've since changed out the flywheel bolts for the low-profile headed OEM version to correc that, but the design of the flywheel portion still only gives 1/2 spline engagement of the R32's input shaft.

None of this has to do with putting an R32 head onto a 2.8L BDF but it's a follow-up of my earlier post in this thread


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## meengreenmachine (Oct 10, 2010)

Good read


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## rockinvr6 (May 11, 2010)

Excellent info, thanks for the input.


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## VWGuy (Nov 2, 1999)

Lots of great info in this thread!

I have a couple of questions to clarify: so all I need to do this upgrade is A) a mk4 r32 head and B) ARP head studs? Which studs specifically?

Is any custom software required or will the stock management adapt?


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

yes along with everything else for swap (throttle body, intake mani etc...) 

I ordered mine from 034 Motorsports. I told them exactly what I was doing and they hand picked the order and put together what I needed for studs.

Stock Management will not adapt. Go with United Motorsports for your tune!!!!!!! Jeff is great with our motor!!!

Any other questions for you?


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## jaswan (Mar 24, 2008)

the ecu wont adapt? 

here in the uk the r32 and bde 2.8 (mechanically the same as the bdf) have the same ecu part number.


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## 2003gtivr62.8liter (Sep 1, 2009)

No it won't. I had the UM tune on the car before I did the swap and afterwards it felt sluggish. I went out and got a custom tune done and it was like noother!!!!!!! The tune is everything!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tonysvdub (May 23, 2004)

Do you have a dyno sheet


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