# 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each?



## turbo1point8 (May 21, 2001)

i am looking to get an exhaust... which one would be best for me? here is what i will have with it.... GIAC chip, evo Cold Air Intake, and stock turbo.
is a 3 inch turbo back exhaust too big? or a 2.5 too small?
which one will give me more power? any reason to go with one or the other? thanks guys.


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## Bolsen (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (turbo1point8)*

Did you search?


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## 1point8TRay (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (turbo1point8)*

2.5" would be better unless you are planning on getting a bigger turbo. IMO, if you are looking for more low end torque though, get a 2.25". A 2.5" will give you more top end speed but you will lose low end torque. 
Use search to get more info.


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## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (1point8TRay)*

2.5" turbo back unless you have plans of a bigger turbo. Gives sick gains on a chipped car.


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## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (FrankiEBoneZ)*

"2.5" would be better unless you are planning on getting a bigger turbo"
WORD 
Not to mention the problems/fitment/rattling/moving of some 3" systems out there ... I haven't tried the GHL system ... you should give it a try if you want 3" system.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## das Haupt (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (FrankiEBoneZ)*

I dont want to rain on anyones parade, but where do you guys get your wonderful info? Have you all done dyno testing on 2.5" vs 3" or 2.25" vs 2.5" exhaust systems? Till I see you guys dyno each of these systems, all your doing is speculating on what works best or makes the most HP... or even makes the most tq! Go dyno each of these systems first, then come back with your conclusive evidence.


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## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (turbo1point8)*

I've never seen any turbo car lose power with a bigger exhaust. The turbo is a huuuuge restriction and the quicker you can get exhaust out of the turbo the better off you'll be. This whole nonsense of "losing low-end because of the exhaust being too big" is from N/A cars where you need a well tuned series of exhaust pules in order to get proper exhaust scavanging. Turbo cars don't do exhaust scavanging. In fact, pressure builds up in the exhaust manifold between the head and the turbo trying to force exhaust BACK IN TO THE ENGINE! Would you want to have your own waste product shoved back inside of you. I don't think so. Get an exhaust that can get exhaust gasses out of the turbo as quickly as possible. I'd go with either 2.5 or 3" but never 2.25". What a waste. If you want to stay that small you may as well keep your stock exhaust.


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## brent98rt (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (FlyinTurbo)*

hrm, get the 3" turbo back exh sys from forced moition . witha ghost yip. i ahve installed about 4 here in az and put them on the dyno, 2.5 sport is about 20 whp and the full 3" is about 33whp(greg please correct me if i'm worng) the guys who i have install these on have beedn very happy with the power gain. go look at you down pipe and you will see mad turns, those suck. look at the 3" down pipe there is like one turn oh yeah, 
i would go witht he full 3" from froced motion 
thats my 0.02


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## turbo1point8 (May 21, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (brent98rt)*

thanks for the help guys.
so a 3 inch WON'T take away from low end torque right? i want the most power, but i also want power i will use the most... i.e. low end more than high end. i will be drving around town more than driving at top speed on the highway.....
thanks for the help guys, still undecided on which one to get.


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## Iago (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (AZGolf)*

I've got no numbers or "hard proof" to back this with...but from everything that I've come to understand from research and reading on engine tuning, I've pretty much come to the same concept as AZGolf.
Backpressure is good for N/A cars because it helps give low-end torque.
Backpressure beyond the turbocharger is useless, because all it's doing is pushing against the turbine, which is in turn causing less air to be compressed. Any and all backpressure you might need for torque you are retaining before the turbine. Beyond that point....get that exhaust out of the way as effectively as possible.


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## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (FlyinTurbo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I dont want to rain on anyones parade, but where do you guys get your wonderful info? [HR][/HR]​Dude, this is the Vortex...chatter, speculation (educated or not) follow-the-herd, and the _most_ posts on the topic actually _create_ truth.
Duhhh


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## Iago (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Jman5000)*

LMAO! Werd to the herd.


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## Bora Bighead (Apr 22, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Iago)*

Someone once told me that size didnt matter. To that, I heard a reply that had something to do with the motion of the ocean. Keep in mind, that when the waves get rough, you dont want to be in a dinghy.
So, what am I really trying to say? You've got nothing to lose with a 3" exhaust. The bigger the pipe, the less the exhaust restriction, faster turbo spool, more power. Keep in mind that the fastest cars here run on the track with no exhaust (dump tube).
I felt a minute low end torque loss with the exhaust. Its tiny, though. Also, it might just be in my head, since the high end is soooooooooo much more powerful now.
One more thing: take a look at what your downpipe size is now. Sure, your exhaust is 2.25", but I found out that my AWD engine has a DP thats sized between 2.25 and 2.5 inches. Doing the math for the flow rates, it was something like a 30% increase in flow for a 2.5, and a 67% increase in flow for the 3.0 over stock (under ideal conditions, meaning thats its really way less). 2.5 wasnt worth it for me, so I went all the way for a 3.0. And I'm glad I did.
2.5's may make sense on an AWW or AWP, since the downpipe is way smaller than that of the AWD, but my AWD runs FLAWLESSLY well with the 3.0. 
I also never plan to upgrade my turbo. But, I plan to get the most out the turbo I have. So, 3.0 really isnt overkill for our cars, since it has been proven time and time again that a 3.0 makes more power than a 2.5.
Oh, onemore thing. I had a rough idle before the downpipe. After the DP install... smooth like butta.
Get a 3" exhaust, and be happy. Its the best. Period.
And a shameless plug here - Forced Motion's customer service is GREAT. (when they're not moving)


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## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Bora Bighead)*

I haven't seen many dynos (JUST ONE) from Greg himself comparing 3" to 2.5" when like 10 people post dynos saying 3" is WAY better than 2.5" then maybe I can agree with you FlyinTurbo. 
Get something that will not move, have problems. I had problems with 3" system. GOT RID OF IT. If you still want a 3" system, you should really contact Jeff from GHL Motorsports (check the GolfIV/JettaIV classifieds)... he seems very nice (emailed me already) and has been talking to me a lot. 
They have been on the market for a while and they also sell stuff for Porsche so you can't go wrong with them. Give them a try if you want 3" system ... They have a special for 950$ shipped on their 3" system. I might buy one myself.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BORA20VT (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Senna 1.8T)*

DISCLAIMER: I'm on the 3.0 team, I myself own an FM 3inch TB and give it 4 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 's.....toes too







. 
If you think that a larger diameter exhaust cools the exhaust flow more than a small diameter exhaust....wouldn't allowing it to cool too much and thus making the air more dense create a restriction in itself....Hot air flows more freely than cold air since the molecules are spread out further apart. Let me know if my thinking behind this is way off... Anyone with a thermal/flow dynamics degree wanna chime in







??
Now this wouldn't apply to a dump tube application since whether the air is cooler or not..it is not confined to the volume limit of a given diameter pipe size so the air can dissipate much quicker before the denser air becomes a blockage.
OK! Am I totally nuts here? Or could there be some truth or reason to this??


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## GTiTES (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (BORA20VT)*

on a 3 inch exhaust.... just a thought - wouldn't it have a tendency to overspool our litlle turbos?


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## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (GTiTES)*

Ya ... well overspool, fitment, rattle, moving, hitting ... Like I said, lets wait till a lot of people post dynos and then say oh poop 3" is the bomb ... 3" is the way to go beacause honestly, 2.5" seems like the best idea for our cars.


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## DubTuning.com (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Senna 1.8T)*

Heres a dyno i pulled off my 18turbo site with the following mods:
Chip -
APR 93, AWP 

Turbo -
K03 

Intake -
Evoms CAI 

Downpipe -
Forced Motion 3" 

Exhaust -
Forced Motion 3" 

DV -
Forge 

Other -
Neuspeed TIP 
Where are all the 2.5" turbo back dyno's at?? i havent seen any yet


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## GoGTIGo (Aug 10, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (DubTuning.com)*

im goin with 3 inch cuz i beilive it will cause the most power increase. I sat inside a car with the forced motion and it was sick....from my understanding of previous threads is that the 3" will cause overspooling, but not over the turbo's specifications, but more on the chips specifications i.e if the chip is suppose to spike at 20psi, then it would spike at 21 psi...and our turbo's are made to handle upto 24-25 psi, so the i believe the overspooling is not a big issue


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## malaiwah (May 28, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (GoGTIGo)*

why is the turbo overspooling when increasing the exhaust diameter to 3 inches? i thought that chips had version made for 3"DP and such that would correct this.
when i'll upgrade my exhaust, i'm gonna look for fitment first. i don't want the exhaust to rattle on the body of the car and as someone said earlier, the turbo is already the biggest backpressure element on the exhaust, the bigger should be the better after the turbo.


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## GoGTIGo (Aug 10, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (malaiwah)*

bigger should be better and it is, the overspool issues is what i can remember from other threads...since then the xchip was released and other chip programs that take the 3"dp to account. I'm not sure if the overspooling occurs still


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## turbo1point8 (May 21, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (GoGTIGo)*

i don't have the X chip though... i have a giac 1.1 bar chip. does this mean my turbo will overspool??? if i get a 3 inch turbo back?


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## DubTuning.com (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (turbo1point8)*

i did a search and couldnt come up with a plot but did find some numbers for a 2.5" TB:
dubnik posted this:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
187hp 217lbs ..
02 GTi 1.8T, apr v1.1, carbonio cai, abd inlet pipe, TT Turboback exhaust ..
I'd hate to know what my dyno figures are like without the turbo back ..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*So thats about 10 less HP and the same torque numbers compared to 3" TB*


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## BORA20VT (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (DubTuning.com)*

So now one has anything to say on my previous post??


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## Bora Bighead (Apr 22, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (BORA20VT)*

quote:[HR][/HR]DISCLAIMER: I'm on the 3.0 team, I myself own an FM 3inch TB and give it 4 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 's.....toes too







. 
If you think that a larger diameter exhaust cools the exhaust flow more than a small diameter exhaust....wouldn't allowing it to cool too much and thus making the air more dense create a restriction in itself....Hot air flows more freely than cold air since the molecules are spread out further apart. Let me know if my thinking behind this is way off... Anyone with a thermal/flow dynamics degree wanna chime in







??
Now this wouldn't apply to a dump tube application since whether the air is cooler or not..it is not confined to the volume limit of a given diameter pipe size so the air can dissipate much quicker before the denser air becomes a blockage.
OK! Am I totally nuts here? Or could there be some truth or reason to this??[HR][/HR]​not totally nuts...
Think of it this way, though. The outlet of the turbo is already 3 inches already. The air that just got forced out the turbo is already expanded to a 3" pipe, so the 3" exhaust is just a natural progression of that.
I think you might have a point, but the 2.x inch downpipe would be more of a restriction than expanding and cooling gases.
One more thing to keep in mind - the air coming out of the turbo is compressed, too. It needs room to expand. The more, the better. I dont know where I'm going here, but it seems to make sense to me.
I think the reason that the temperature difference is irrelevant is because regardless of the size of the exhaust, the longer the pipe you have, the more time the air inside will have to cool, thereby creating a restriction in itself. THis will happen with any length exhaust pipe, and I dont think the diameter will play a role. Also, I think the loss in restriction will more than overcome the potential 'temperature drop restriction' that you're talking bout.
THen again, I'm not an engineer, so dont take what I have to say seriously.


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## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Bora Bighead)*

Check this out -> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=511718

This would be the only 3" system I would put on my car as of today.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jay24 (Jul 13, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Senna 1.8T)*

Well everyone's concentrating on WOT, but off-boost/part throttle is probably where you'll be spending most of your time, and it's probably where you'll take the hit. I definitely noticed a loss there when I got my 3-inch turboback installed. And I REALLY noticed it when I swapped in my straight-pipe for the cat (strip use only of course







). 
Noise is also a problem. I don't care what anyone says. 3-inch systems are loud-- even w/ a turbo. TIP: If you're puttering away from a light at 1/3 throttle and the guy in the other lane thinks you're trying to race him, then your exhaust can be considered loud.







Anyway when i get the money, I'll probably move to a nice 2.5-inch just because of the noise issue. Fitment wasn't a problem for me though. Once everything settled, I didn't have any rubbing/rattling issues.


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## DubTuning.com (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Jay24)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Well everyone's concentrating on WOT, but off-boost/part throttle is probably where you'll be spending most of your time, and it's probably where you'll take the hit. I definitely noticed a loss there when I got my 3-inch turboback installed. And I REALLY noticed it when I swapped in my straight-pipe for the cat (strip use only of course







). 
Noise is also a problem. I don't care what anyone says. 3-inch systems are loud-- even w/ a turbo. TIP: If you're puttering away from a light at 1/3 throttle and the guy in the other lane thinks you're trying to race him, then your exhaust can be considered loud.







Anyway when i get the money, I'll probably move to a nice 2.5-inch just because of the noise issue. Fitment wasn't a problem for me though. Once everything settled, I didn't have any rubbing/rattling issues.[HR][/HR]​Jay, would you care to elaborate on exactly what 3" system you had/have?? did u have hidden tips or exposed??


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## speedgator (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Jay24)*

I myslef am worried about the midrange and the sound. I will probably go with a 3" downpipe and free flowing cat mated to the stock exhaust. My other concern is fuel efficiency. I have searched high and low but I can't seem to find much data. Anyone have plots with different setups?


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## Bora Bighead (Apr 22, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (speedgator)*

Fuel efficiency goes down a bit. Not because of the exhaust, but because of the way you drive it with the exhaust. 







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Al Bob (May 23, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Senna 1.8T)*

Senna, you have problems with the Forced Motion so you bash it every chance you get. Did you ever try to fix your problems? Do you know what was causing your problems? Did you see overspooling on a boost gauge?
But you did have problems, so I can at least understand why you don't recommend the product. But you also decide to recommend a product that technically should have the same problems you had with the forced motion. And without having any experience with it.


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## VDUBBINDizzy (Jul 23, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (DubTuning.com)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Heres a dyno i pulled off my 18turbo site with the following mods:
Chip - APR 93, AWP 
Turbo - K03 
Intake - Evoms CAI 
Downpipe -Forced Motion 3" 
Exhaust -Forced Motion 3" 
DV -Forge 
Other - Neuspeed TIP 
Where are all the 2.5" turbo back dyno's at?? i havent seen any yet.[HR][/HR]​Just to add fuel to the fire. How about this. With GIAC X(10B), stock turbo, an AEM intake, stock DP, TT 2.5" cat back, Bailey DV, and NS TIP, I put down 192hp and 232tq. I know you can't compare dynos because of different dyno models, temperature, humidity, different motors, etc, which is why Greg will always defend his belief in 3" systems, but how in the hell am I making 17 ft lbs more than this dyno *on a STOCK DP*? By the way, the dyno I am referring to was done at about 88 degrees with 85% humidity. I'll post the dyno in about five minutes.


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## DubTuning.com (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (VDUBBINDizzy)*

heres an AWD with APR 91oct, stock DP and catback and intake!


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## DubTuning.com (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (DubTuning.com)*

i guess its just kinda weird that some cars run higher numbers than others. i think it really depends on the dyno and the conditions. i bet if you dyno your car with the stock dp and then someone with the 3" TB on the SAME dyno you WILL see the difference there
you can find about 50 dyno plots on http://www.18turbo.com


[Modified by DubTuning.com, 8:40 AM 10-11-2002]


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## MiKeiV (Oct 11, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (FlyinTurbo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I dont want to rain on anyones parade, but where do you guys get your wonderful info? Have you all done dyno testing on 2.5" vs 3" or 2.25" vs 2.5" exhaust systems? Till I see you guys dyno each of these systems, all your doing is speculating on what works best or makes the most HP... or even makes the most tq! Go dyno each of these systems first, then come back with your conclusive evidence.[HR][/HR]​I found this URL from forced motion.
http://www.forced-motion.com/dynos/dyno3.gif 
it shows a pretty big difference


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## scud6661 (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (Jay24)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Well everyone's concentrating on WOT, but off-boost/part throttle is probably where you'll be spending most of your time, and it's probably where you'll take the hit. I definitely noticed a loss there when I got my 3-inch turboback installed. And I REALLY noticed it when I swapped in my straight-pipe for the cat (strip use only of course







). 
Noise is also a problem. I don't care what anyone says. 3-inch systems are loud-- even w/ a turbo. TIP: If you're puttering away from a light at 1/3 throttle and the guy in the other lane thinks you're trying to race him, then your exhaust can be considered loud.







Anyway when i get the money, I'll probably move to a nice 2.5-inch just because of the noise issue. Fitment wasn't a problem for me though. Once everything settled, I didn't have any rubbing/rattling issues.[HR][/HR]​wow, i thought i was the only one who thought like that. guess i'm not as hard,hard core as soon the ppl around here. thats true... lets be honest, i probably spend 99% of my time on part throttle. ok, if i do in first gear, my tires screech and the cops can pull me over for over-acceleration (yes, we do get that kinda crap in MA). if i gun it on 2nd, i'll be at 60 mph in 6 seconds and not many roads, except for highways would allow me to go at such speeds without being pegged by a pig. i spend far more time on stop and go traffic in boston and around it, so to each their own.


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## lynx8489 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (scud6661)*

ttt


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (lynx8489)*

There was a guy who had 2.5 vs 3" dp dynos that i found in the search a while back....think i was looking for various things pertaining to 3" dp...i'll see if i can find the link. 
Basically the 2.5" dp makes slighlty more torque over the 3" at a certain rpm range(lower rpms) when you are comparing to stock....BUT the 3" still had torque gains over stock. The 3" reigned supreme over the 2.5" dp after a certain rpm. So from what this dyno was saying a 3" is still gains over stock no loses anywhere, just that the 2,5"dp had slighlty more toque at a lower rpm then the 3"....i'll try to find the link guys


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## KurtP (May 24, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (1point8TRay)*

a good 3" on a turbo car will make more power *everywhere* in the rpm band over a similar quality 2.5" or 2.25. there are NO exceptions.
turbos that over spool based on exhaust diameter do so because they have wg's that are too small, not exhausts that are too big.


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## snvin (Oct 20, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_Basically the 2.5" dp makes slighlty more torque over the 3" at a certain rpm range(lower rpms) when you are comparing to stock....BUT the 3" still had torque gains over stock. The 3" reigned supreme over the 2.5" dp after a certain rpm. So from what this dyno was saying a 3" is still gains over stock no loses anywhere, just that the 2,5"dp had slighlty more toque at a lower rpm then the 3"....i'll try to find the link guys

That's what Ive seen too, and to be honest, (and maybe I'm alone here,) these cars can *afford* to lose a little low-end torque, considering the fact that it is the low-end torque that is giving so many people with Mk4s traction nightmares!
Just my $.02


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## bigbwoy (Apr 29, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (KurtP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KurtP* »_turbos that over spool based on exhaust diameter do so because they have wg's that are too small, not exhausts that are too big.

Please forgive my ignorance. What are wg's?


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## snvin (Oct 20, 2002)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (bigbwoy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigbwoy* »_
Please forgive my ignorance. What are wg's?

White Guys?


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## KurtP (May 24, 2001)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (snvin)*

rofl.
waste gate


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## bigbwoy (Apr 29, 2000)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (KurtP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KurtP* »_rofl.
waste gate

Ahhhh.. Thanks


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: 2.5 or 3 inch turbo back exhaust? what are the advantages of each? (bigbwoy)*

http://www.20vt.com/3in1.jpg
the red is the stock numbers, the green is with 2.5" exhaust and the blue is with the 3" system
ive seen another dyno of just downpipe comparison's, the results are almost mirror image to the dyno link above....dyno says it all
3" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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