# Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion



## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

Hey all,
I guess this question would be more directed to my fellow VRT owners, or anyone who is familiar with IC setupd and VR setups in MK2s.
So here is my dilema. I am now running a Stage 1 kinetic turbo kit in my OBD1 coilpack VR. no major mods other than full 3" DP and exhaust, and Ceramicoated parts, 2.9L intake and ported TB.
The car really loses power during hot suny days, and i generally dont enjoy driving it in hot temps just for fear of detonation or anything like that. Not to mention i want to run a bit more boost than 5-7psi that the stock stage 1 kit runs at.
I know we went over this a year ago or so, i cant seem to find the thread. But i would love to get a good discusion going on which route would be best to run my AIR/AIR ic setup. It looks like this might be the only way to go, as my original idea of AIR/WATER seems to be a bad idea (bad performance, hard to get set up properly)
My main issue with AIR/AIR intercooler is getting the IC into an area were it can get ample air and i dont have huge IC plumbing.
Ideally i would have love to get somehting like this:
















but im not running a 1.8T, so i dont really have the room (so i think) to run the same style of setupd. From what reading ive done, most guys that run the IC like that move their Radiator back a few inches to get some clearance behind the grill. So i went out and took some pictures of my motor and Radiator setup and its not looking good. haha.








so i really dont have much room at all to work with... Now im pretty sure im running the Radiator from a Passat 1995 or 1996. Are those radiators alot larger, like could i get something that is thinner, or doesnt have such huge fans?? (thinner fans) or maybe something aftermarket??
What other route would you guys take?? I mean i guess i could run it on the side of my motor were my battery used to be... or maybe even on the underside of my motor. Any ideas, wether big explanations or small suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I want to keep the car looking like this (so no FMIC for me):








and yes those be the new wheels after 3 weeks of fitting/cutting/adjusting








cheers,
Nick


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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (Nick_2.8L)*

first off, air-water setups are not "bad" or "hard to set up right". They are more complex than an air-air setup and require more parts and space though. IMO they are not generally worthwhile to run on the street but can be great for track use. I would not recommend putting and IC where your battery used to be, and certainly not on the bottom of your motor. 
If you converted to some aftermarket slimline fans, moved your rad back, and got a core of the appropriate thickness you should be good to go with a grille mount IC. I have seen VRT Mk2s run them.


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (stealthmk1)*

yeah man, i have been given a line on some slim line fans, and ill see if i can push my radiator back a bit as well, should give me ample room to work with. i guess i can modify the grill a bit to give me some more room as well, i just dont want it to get saggy. haha.
if i put a A/A ic setup were my battery used to be (kinda like the guys who run A/W ic setups), will it not get much air flow though?? i guess i would have to fab up some sort of air flow system to get some air up there.
cheers,
Nick


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## mirror (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (Nick_2.8L)*

look for billyt's car. he has a vr mk2 with a pte825.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (mirror)*

It's not exactly going to be inexpensive, but it would be a nice setup if you went a/w with a shortrunner (tb on the drivers side). You would have a total of probably 3 feet of ic piping, and if setup correctly with a nice heat exchanger it would be very efficient. I was talking to Joe with the black mk3 gti that Sleepers built, and his IAT's even on a 90 degree day are below ambient temperature. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (92g60gti)*

money wont be a concern with this. I mean im not gonna want to spend $5000 on an IC setup. But i wont skimp out on a A/W setup or an A/A setup just to get one installed. 
I want it done properly.
I guess i could make a thread in the mk2 forum and ask if anyone has pictures of a full A/W setup in a VRT and maybe if people have some pics of a A/A setup in a VRT mk2 that has small bumper.


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (Nick_2.8L)*

Hey guys,
well im in the process of building up the Intercooler setup for my car. Right now it is a stage 1 kinetic kit with 3" DP and exhaust and the hot side of the turbo/exhaust mani/DP are ceramicoated. euro 2.9L intake many and ported TB. other than that its pretty much a stock VR








anyways, here is a pic of the car and i want to keep the exterior looking like this:








so this is my issue, were the hell am i gonna run an A/A intercooler setup??
I was gonna consider running a A/W intercooler setup like this:








but after reading through this:
*----How can an air-to-air intercooler be more efficient than a water based intercooler?
There is an overwhelming quantity of ambient air available to cool an air-to-air core relative to the charge air thru the inside of the intercooler (The iced down water intercooler is the only exception to this argument.). At just 60 mph, with a 300 bhp engine at full tilt, the ambient air available to cool the intercooler is about ten times the amount of charge air needed to make the 300 hp. Whereas the water intercooler largely stores the heat in the water until off throttle allows a reverse exchange. Some heat is expelled from a front water cooler, but the temperature difference between the water and ambient air is not large enough to drive out much heat. Another way to view the situation is that ultimately the heat removed from the air charge must go into the atmosphere regardless of whether it's from an air intercooler or a water based intercooler. The problem with the water intercooler is that the heat has more barriers to cross to reach the atmosphere than the air intercooler. Like it or not, each barrier represents a resistance to the transfer of heat. The net result; more barriers, less heat transfer.
What are the relative merits of an air or water-cooled intercooler and which would suit my purposes best?
This depends on the circumstances. These circumstances are; street use, drag racing, or endurance racing (more than two minutes).
Street use: The air-to-air intercooler will prove superior in efficiency when sized properly.
Drag racing: The short spurt of power allows the iced water to cool the charge air to below ambient temperature.
Endurance racing: The air-to-air intercooler is clearly superior due to the shorter route of getting the heat out of the air charge and into the atmosphere. Endurance racing would preclude the use of ice water, thus negating the singular advantage of the water intercooler. Further, the air-to-air intercooler is (virtually, see comments below) maintenance free.*
i basically choose to stick with A/A IC setup. Thanks Alexi.
Having said that, now my problem is finding and building a setup that is gonna work for me, olschool EIP turbo VRT had a sweet setup, that might work for me, anyone go tmore pics???
















apparently this setup was good for 400hp and 11 second passes, so i should be good with that.

OR i could go this route:
















only problem with this is, unlike a 1.8T motor, my VR has very little room up front, to be able to move the Rad Back to give me enough room behind the grill.
Then again, i could get a smaller Radiator (mine is a 95 Passat VR rad) and get some aftermarket fans like these:








here is what my engine bay looks like. its a pretty tight fit, haha:
























any ideas what can be deleted from the engine bay to give me more room to play with?
- coolant over flow tank?
- secondary air injection?
- relocating wiring?

PLEASE HALP ME!!!
love,
Nick


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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (Nick_2.8L)*

As I said before:
1) do not do a bottom ount IC such as the old EIP ones. Just not enough available flow there. 
2) I truly believe that with slim fans you should be fine to psuh back your rad a little and get enough clearance. I have seen it done onhere, but I dod not recall who. 
Also, relocating the things you listed above will really not be any help. I think strategic placement of the slimline fans will be your friend.


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (stealthmk1)*

hmmm, ok,
but by removing the secondary air injection, looks like it will clear up another 1" of space up front. no?
ill get to work on them slim line fans. eitherway its good to get them since im sure they are lighter than the OEM setup.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (Nick_2.8L)*

I just think it's going to be extremely hard to do an air/air setup seeing you want to keep it looking stock up front. I dont think that you will be able to fit a big enough intercooler. I know that on my car i have very minimal space between my radiator and the grill. Most intercoolers are 3'' thick at least, and some of the bigger ones are 3.5'' thick. Before you rule out an air/water setup i would do some more research. With a proper sized heat exchanger and reservoir you will be pleasantly surprised at how well they cool, and you will have practically no piping. Talk to bill schimmel or pete from sleepers before ruling it out. Those are 2 guys who know their stuff without a doubt.


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## vr6chris (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (92g60gti)*

i fit a 18x12x3 precision core, thats not including end tanks. had to remove the a/c but i still have the complete front bumper. no problem fitting anything just takes time and attention to detail.
















and on my corrado when i still had it. i ran a air/water setup. works great. it was a race car, so i didnt run a condensor, just put ice in the reservoir everytime i ran. if you decide air/air or air/water, there both good setups. i like my air/air setup more though then my old air/water setup










_Modified by vr6chris at 6:16 PM 7-9-2008_


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (vr6chris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6chris* »_i fit a 18x12x3 precision core, thats not including end tanks. had to remove the a/c but i still have the complete front bumper. no problem fitting anything just takes time and attention to detail.

_Modified by vr6chris at 6:16 PM 7-9-2008_

Yeah my intercooler is wider and thicker than that and i'm running a mk2 like him. but you forget there is a lot more room with a mk3 or my car with big bumpers to cut stuff out and hide it. He has a mk2 with small bumpers. It's not like he can just hack out the rebar and throw an intercooler back there. He also said he wanted the front to remain looking how it does now...


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## 92gtikid (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (92g60gti)*

This is how I did mine... No cutting/trimming at all.


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## crazysccrmd (Mar 31, 2006)

send a pm to BMAN, he did an intercooler setup behind the grill of his mk2 vrt


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## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

I would seriously look into doing a meth injection set up...especially with only that much boost. No pressure drop...cheaper...better detonation prevention...probably even cooler than running an IC...and no piping to worry about. 
Some rx-7 guys are deleting their ICs and relying on water/meth to cool their intake charge...and if you know anything about RX-7s you know that they run HOT and are not very resistant to detonation.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (92gtikid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92gtikid* »_This is how I did mine... No cutting/trimming at all. 


























swap to small bumpers and then see if that intercooler will get any flow at all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Water injection definitely isnt a bad idea if you are only going to run 7-8psi. Good call.


_Modified by 92g60gti at 10:18 AM 7-10-2008_


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: Planning for VRT intercooler setup, Questions/Discussion (92g60gti)*

hey guys, thanks for all the help. Kind of frustrating seeing all the guys post up saying its easy to fit an intercooler behind the bumper. Im assuming they fail to read my OP and look at the pics of my car being a small euro bumpered car. But either way, thanks for the input.
I was actually just gonna mention water/meth.
ill add a new post though.
cheers,
Nick


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (Flyweight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flyweight* »_I would seriously look into doing a meth injection set up...especially with only that much boost. No pressure drop...cheaper...better detonation prevention...probably even cooler than running an IC...and no piping to worry about. 
Some rx-7 guys are deleting their ICs and relying on water/meth to cool their intake charge...and if you know anything about RX-7s you know that they run HOT and are not very resistant to detonation. 

this is what my buddy gave me advice on:

*Another option would be to run no intercooler but a boost controled water/meth injection kit. You could have 2 boost settings ( or more). Stock spring pressure roughly 5psib just like now but when you turn it up it also turns the water/meth injection allowing you to safely run more boost without an intercooler. Just run a sensor in your meth/water tank so when it gets low it automatically turns the boost back to the stock lower setting. If you only wanted to use the high boost settings once and a while this would be a pretty safe cool set up and it wouldnt change the look of the engine or exterior at all. *

Before i even consider spending ridiculous amounts of money on a IC setup, i wanted to get some more info on the water/meth idea.
1) when you upgrade to an intercooler, this allows you to up your boost. Which means i would go from 30lb injectors to 36or42lb injectors right? and throw in a headspacer to lower compression... basically what you do in a stage 2 or stage 3 kit. But if i use water/meth as my cooling solution, what would i be doing witht he rest of my setup? the same thing? higher flow injectors/headpsacer/up the boost?? and how would this be done, would i need to get a new chip?

anyone very familiar with water/meth that could explain all this to me? Alexi? TBT syncro?


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

It all depends on what your power goals are. If you are looking to go stage 2 or 3 with a headspacer and the 42# software then without a doubt you need to go intercooled. See what they say, but personally i would not run more then 8-10psi topps with your current setup and just water/meth.


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## crazysccrmd (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: (92g60gti)*

fwiw, i ran 15psi on stock compression with methanol injection. never had any problems, timing wasnt being pulled, no detonation and the IAT were nearly identical to a friend who was intercooled


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (92g60gti)*

sigh, im so lost man..
dunno wether to go through the hassle of fitting a FMIC in the grill area and all the headaches associated with that.
or go water/meth and go that hassle of a route in having it properly set up.








im gonna message this BAM fella


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

Sent BMAN a IM, hopefully he can help me out. here are pics of his setup and its IDENTICAL to what i want, OMGZORZ:
















obviously the only different with my setup is that im gonna be running a short runner intake many to have a little less piping length and keep things simple.


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

well i guess im getting a little farther along now, Im going to stick it out and try to get a FMIC to fit between my grill and the radiator.
If i have to go with a Corrado radiator and a slim fan setup I will do that for sure. I htink that in itsself will give me a ton more room to work with. 
And maybe the Short Runner intake will also give me a bit more room.
so here is my idea:








haha,
the Schimmel performance Intake mani alone is $1100 before shipping








http://www.spturboparts.com/af...15953
but its soooo pretty.
haha, anyways, that is my dream setup, we will see what is gonna actually happen.
gonna go talk to a local company that does custom fab work.
cheers,
Nick


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## BMAN (Jun 9, 1999)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

One thing I forgot to mention was the stock battery is to big and will need to be changed to a smaller one.


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (BMAN)*

thanks man,
yeah mine is relocated to my trunk anyways.








figure out what kind of Radiator you had yet?
haha,


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## mk2vrooom (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

id say do air to water..its super clean and works great..its just pricey


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (mk2vrooom)*

it works great in some instances.
but its usually only good for short periods of time (ie:quarter mile runs)
why dont we see more touring cars/race cars with air/water ic setups??
because at extended periods of time (at speed) Air/Air setups work better.
So im gonna shoot for an Air/Air setup and hope for the best.


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## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

i had the eip style sidemount with the piping going between in the tunnel between the oilpan and the transmission, its nice it that it really cleans everything up in the bay and the install is easy but that intercooler sure does heatsoak when its right on top of the pavement, another thing to not is that no matter how you run the piping it will still be even lower than the oil pan
now I have a front mount and I'm moving the radiator back a few inches to make it work without trimming the bumper at all
a few pics of the eip style


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## whiteriot (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: (JackieMoon)*

That black VR you like looks like it's running a very similar sized Yonaka intercooler that i have in my 16vT. There's definitely less room in front of your motor then my 16v but with slim mount fans it should free up enough space to shift the rad back to fit the intercooler behind the grille. would be a tight fit but you might be able to fit a 3" core but you'll likely be looking at a 2.5" unit.
Hope to see this car at Great Canadian this summer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nick_2.8L* »_it works great in some instances.
but its usually only good for short periods of time (ie:quarter mile runs)
why dont we see more touring cars/race cars with air/water ic setups??
because at extended periods of time (at speed) Air/Air setups work better.
So im gonna shoot for an Air/Air setup and hope for the best.

So if thats the case why the stock OEM cars come with AWIC setups like the GMC Typhoon, Benz E55,Toyota celica turbo & Mustangs cobra's and Lotus Omega ?


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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_
So if thats the case why the stock OEM cars come with AWIC setups like the GMC Typhoon, Benz E55,Toyota celica turbo & Mustangs cobra's and Lotus Omega ?

probably for the same reason that lots of OE turbo cars come with air-air ICs that heat soak even at stock boost levels. Packaging and cost.
BMANs car is the one I was thinking of and reverenced in my earlier post. Glad you found it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: (stealthmk1)*

I always felt the OE car came with A/A IC's due to cost but if spare no major expense once properly done ( Meaning major $$$$ in R&D ) a A/W will be more efficient


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## OLD-GTI (Jul 19, 2001)

*Re: (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_I always felt the OE car came with A/A IC's due to cost but if spare no major expense once properly done ( Meaning major $$$$ in R&D ) a A/W will be more efficient









the AWIC is super efficient in mine, granted it's a 2.0T, but I run 15lbs all day long, and my intake temps are close to ambient.


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (OLD-GTI)*

thanks for the input guys.
ive decided to go with A/A setup mounted in the front of the grill. I spent a few hours at my fab shop getting everything sorted out and this is what we have come up with:
-OEM rad that is 28.5" and not 31.5" like mine is. 
-garret intercooler core with custom endtanks by Bob.
-boost piping and black silicone hoses.
-Custom Short runner intake many, with TB on the drivers side. ($ siteh hamseh sifer)
-MBC set at 9psi
-Boost gauge installed and hidden in the left air vent
-bosch porsche spark plugs
-new C2 OBD1 36 injector software
cheers,
Nick
lemme know if im missing anything.
il also running a brand new bosch highflow 60mm fuel pump. Im told i wont have to run a walbro inline with this, since mine is good for like 500hp.


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

can you disclose the exact oem radiator? i'm trying to cook up a grill mounted IC. my core is 2.5 inches deep. how can i get my hands on one?
and flex-a-lite fans are in order!
the measurement(rad) you mentioned is for width?
thanks and lets see some pics when you make progress!!


_Modified by WolfzGangVR6 at 9:23 PM 7-16-2008_


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (BMAN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BMAN* »_One thing I forgot to mention was the stock battery is to big and will need to be changed to a smaller one.

what fan were you running and if aftermarket, did you still use your Fan control module to control it?


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (WolfzGangVR6)*

i will get you the specs on the OEM rad.
thats for sure.
and pics will be posted as soon as i have them.
cheers,
Nick


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nick_2.8L* »_i will get you the specs on the OEM rad.
thats for sure.
and pics will be posted as soon as i have them.
cheers,
Nick

thank you much bro!!! i'm itching to get my vr boosted


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (WolfzGangVR6)*

























here's some pics...


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

that isht looks great!!


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## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

I make SRI that wont kill ur wallet


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## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nick_2.8L* »_well i guess im getting a little farther along now, Im going to stick it out and try to get a FMIC to fit between my grill and the radiator.
If i have to go with a Corrado radiator and a slim fan setup I will do that for sure. I htink that in itsself will give me a ton more room to work with. 
And maybe the Short Runner intake will also give me a bit more room.
so here is my idea:










Not an MKII but the piping route you are talking about.


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## 92gtikid (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (MKII16v)*

A couple more pictures that might help you out...


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (92gtikid)*

thanks guys,
i have my whole setup built now, and mother of GOD does it scream. here are the details and ill post up pics later:
- SRI intake mani
- Custom Fluidine Highflow Radiator
- 2x Flexlite Race fans
- Custom Radiator support
- Cut/tubed the front cross member for extra room
- boost gauge in left vent
- upped PSI to 9 with manual boost controller
- CUstom Garret core
- Custom built endtanks
- IC is hidden behind the grill and is completely STEALTH with my euro bumpers and everything looks OEM on the outside. 
the car pulls like a bat outta hell, omg. LOVE IT.
cheers,
Nick


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## 92gtikid (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (Nick_2.8L)*

Congrats! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## hubbell (Oct 30, 2001)

*Re: (92gtikid)*

dont remove SAI, it controls o2s....


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (hubbell)*

Secondary Air is already gone.
the C2 Chip doesnt use it anyways.


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## Winston_Taco (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: (OLD-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OLD-GTI* »_
the AWIC is super efficient in mine, granted it's a 2.0T, but I run 15lbs all day long, and my intake temps are close to ambient.









Nice where did you get that intercooler?


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## Senor Smarty Pants (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: (Winston_Taco)*

where are the pics of the secret squirrell fmic Nick? post em up!


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## Nick_2.8L (Mar 11, 2004)

*Re: (Senor Smarty Pants)*

im hella lazy man.
ive been asked by a few people to post up pics, so i will within the next few days.


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