# Anyone else have recurring broken ringland problems? VR6T



## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

Been dailying my MK3 VRT for about 3 years now, initially purchased a brand new Kinetics stage 1 kit. Right off the bat I did a full rebuild with "OEM brand" pistons, (not Meyle which is OE) due to an overboost situation because of a wastegate problem and lack of a boost gauge... Needless to say all 3 rear bank pistons were a bit "melty". 

Since then I've broken ringlands on 3 MORE instances, #1 went again, then 1 and 4, and now #6. Each time I slapped used OEM pistons back in replacing only the damaged ones. (not ideal I know) and used new rings each time. The block and crank has well over 200k now. I usually changed the setup slightly after each failure. Added water/meth, intercooler, switched from 30# to 42# C2, and just this past time I threw in a 9:1 head spacer and not a month later #6 piston seems to have blown ringlands now. :thumbdown:

So as of late, my setup has been C2 42# 9:1, non intercooled running just 9PSI. Inline fuel pump, car runs flawless with no codes. Monitoring AFR's with AEM UEGO. 

Is this just a case of a worn cylinder bores? Crappy tune? Running lean when I don't appear to be? I've finally called it quits, and ditched the motor for a new to me unmolested long block. Leaving the turbo setup off, tired of fixing this crap. :thumbdown: Input?


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## cosmicmkII (Apr 20, 2006)

I went through 3 different rebuilds of Stock Piston VR's. All ring land failures.

I was running Lugtronic and had the same scenario. Blown ring lands became my worst nightmare. I have since swapped the VR out for a 1.8T and haven't looked back.

Wasn't prepared to do a VR build with my track record of breaking them so I gave up. 

I attribute it to lack of sophisticated knock detection and ****ty gas on my setup. but the C2 setup should do a great job of detecting any knock and compensating for it.


Its very frustrating


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## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

Good to hear im not the only one!  I just don't get how people are pushing 500whp out of stock blocks at the track, e85 I guess?


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## cosmicmkII (Apr 20, 2006)

Yeah. E85 is the key. I Dont have that option up here so I have to work with what I can.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

what turbo you running


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

almost 15 years and no issues.

step 1. find source of failure
step 2. find solution for failure
step 3. then replace parts

If you're just changing parts randomly after a failure, you're going to keep killing motors until you randomly fix the source.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

As mentioned, with standalone you are losing knock detection. Either use forged pistons, wire in a det can, or go back to the stock ecu.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You have pictures of what broke? I see it less often from detonation and more from overfueling getting under the ring and igniting there.


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## cosmicmkII (Apr 20, 2006)

This is mine. I went through 8 pistons in 2 years. 2 different long blocks. Always the back 3 cylinders. 1, 3, or 5. Never had an issue on the front 3.



















Pics are not great, I realize.


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

Detonation is also caused by heat. 
Cast pistons at 15psi with any detonation will break every time.
:beer::beer:


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## hoodita (Jul 25, 1999)

This happened to me. all due from detonation. And running woosner low comp forged pistons. problem solved. Of course ive messed with fueling and the tune to fix the detonation.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You have pictures of what broke? I see it less often from detonation and more from overfueling getting under the ring and igniting there.


That's the strangest theory I've ever heard.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Beyond a theory.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

how can you tell the difference or what does it look like ?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Detonation will damage the piston tops as well (usually). Fuel igniting under the ring pushes it up, detonation will push it down. Sometimes it easy to tell what happened, sometimes it's not.


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## isault (Mar 3, 2005)

What are the symptoms of a ring land broken?, I blown my head gasket once, however if a piston ring land problem happen to me I would buy forged pistons.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

Here are some old threads:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...g-an-investigation-but-anyone-got-any-guesses
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5700746-VRT-carnage-pics
As you see it almost always happens on 1,3,5 cyl when N/A pistons are combined with ....charger

I've seen such damage even on modern 1.4 TFSI engines without any sign of detonation on the pistons face. No need to mention an "overfueling"with these engines is out of question


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## Highbeam2 (Jan 25, 2012)

I'd like to hear some Tuner input on this topic, cause we go out and buy chips or standalone. Tune via specs on motor build or data log. And still have this problem. I have had it happen to me on 630cc Pro-Maf UM. And a good friend of mine on 630cc lugtronic. I know standalone has no knock detection. But similar setups same outcome.. :facepalm:

1. Stock motor 264 cams, 9:1, Precision 6262 jb, air-to-water
2. Stock motor 262 cams, 9:1, Garret 60-1 jb, 750hp fmic


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

Yes, I'd like too but without real individual cyl logs any theory is just a theory. Now let me prephrase a bit your queastion: How many tuners use individual cyl logs for lambda and EGT for their tunes? I know some dare to put 6 EGTs on every exhaust runner but what do they receive as information when these EGT probes are actually placed on different distances away from front and rear banks cylinders/exh. valves? How many of them log the IC efficiency (inlet vs outlet vs ambient temps) during longer full throttle runs? How many log oil temperature? How many care to use knock control not only detection? How many of you believe that a cooling system designed for 180hp NA car/engine is also good for 4-500HP turbo engine, especially when most of the front radiator area is usually blocked with IC's, oil coolers, bumpers.....etc? Does anyone know for sure is the OEM knock control still 100% functional over the whole rpm range after the software and hardware mods on your engine?


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

Right.

To the OP, you say you're running without an inter-cooler, so probably the mixture gets too hot and starts detonating.

A VR6 already runs hot, how good is your radiator? Maybe its clogged or the water pump is worn out. 

You'll need to keep water and air temps as low as possible, reduce timing when temps go up and limit boost pressure if you can.

So checking the radiator/cooling system and adding an inter-cooler would be the first steps.

I've broken a few VR6's myself(have a Corrado 2.8l 24V turbo running stand alone(Pectel SQ6 with knock control), running without any problems for some years now), and what I can say is that VR6's have a very narrow temperature threshold(range), and it will detonate very quickly once you go beyond that, the only thing that can save the engine at that moment is to quickly reduce timing(> 6°) and lower boost pressure, if not, you'll end up with broken ring lands(even with forged pistons).


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## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

For the brief periods that I drove the car with no intercooler, 9psi was the max boost the motor saw, or I had water/meth injection hooked up and running 12-15psi. here is what the piston damage looks like:










Always seems to be between the top and middle compression rings. Rings always stay intact. #1, #4 are most commonly the problem cylinders, and this past time it was #6. Only a slight compression loss (10-15psi) but lots of oil burning most noticeable at idle.


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