# What are the advantages of a Kevlar timing belt



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

As title

I never really hear of the conti's failing... Sooo, whats the deal


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## zrau17 (Apr 21, 2010)

Talkin' about like a Gates belt? I don't know for sure, I don't run one...but last I read it was more for real high RPMs use where the OEM belt MIGHT start to stretch and the belt wrap will do the obvious if it jumps.

On the other hand, in the same discussion I remember reading...a few people chimed in with fully built top ends revving out beyond 8k and claim the OEM belt is perfectly okay. Would it be nice to grab a Gates belt, sure. Do I personally feel thats the best place to spend my next $120, probably not.

I think it's more of a piece of mind thing knowing the belt you have installed "won't stretch" leaving a ruined head out of your future.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

The Gates belt isn't Kevlar, it's reinforced with other materials if I remember correctly. 

034 (I think it was 034) use to, or maybe still does, have actual kevlar reinforced belts. 

I plan to run my timing set up on 100k mile intervals with the Gates belt and 16v tensioner. So, a bit more longevity that actually holds up to the OE change interval with the conti belts is a plus.


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## BoostedGLS0218 (Dec 10, 2011)

STOICH said:


> The Gates belt isn't Kevlar, it's reinforced with other materials if I remember correctly.
> 
> 034 (I think it was 034) use to, or maybe still does, have actual kevlar reinforced belts.
> 
> I plan to run my timing set up on 100k mile intervals with the Gates belt and 16v tensioner. So, a bit more longevity that actually holds up to the OE change interval with the conti belts is a plus.


Yes I remember looking for parts for my timing belt job and that was one of the benefits of the belt was a longer interval. But if you ran the oe tensioner you'd pretty much still have to do it the same 70k interval because that tensioner is likely to fail before the belt. 

I ended up with just doing the Conti belt and an OE tensioner and calling it a day. Didn't really feel like doing the 16v tensioner (being my first timing belt job)


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

None if you were one of the original people who got in on the initial production runs. One company pulled theirs from market others continued to quietly sell them. Never got much vortex publicity as many people were taken care of with refunds and didn't take their problems public. The idea was longer belt life.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Lets not confuse the blue gates belt with the Kevlar ones that snapped a few enigines.

I have confidence in the gates standard production belt in terms of out lasting the oe belt.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

RAI KEVLAR $115

http://www.raimotorsport.com/R-A-I-Motorsport-1-8T-Kevlar-Timing-Belt-p/rai-12008mgt-k.htm







Description 



_*Finally the R.A.I. Motorsport kevlar timing belt is here! This timing belt is a USA Made kevlar reinforced belt, with an upgraded GP-2 jacket to increase tooth strength and prevent stretching. It is designed to be compatible with all 1.8T 06A blocks. We have spent over a year testing the quality and durability of this belt on one of our higher horsepower 1.8T's. We found the quality to greatly exceed that of a stock belt, and it is over 400% more durable. The R.A.I. Kevlar Timing Belt is good for at least 100,000 miles without snapping, unlike stock belts which need to be replaced every 60-80 thousand miles. With this upgraded belt, you can have piece of mind knowing that your timing belt will last longer than ever before and will hold under greater power loads like never before. You can stop worrying about a timing belt failure, resulting in costly repairs or even a new engine, because you have an R.A.I. Kevlar Timing Belt which will last longer and will remain more durable than any other belt on the market today.*_


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

STOICH said:


> Lets not confuse the blue gates belt with the Kevlar ones that snapped a few enigines.
> 
> I have confidence in the gates standard production belt in terms of out lasting the oe belt.


Care to throw some part numbers my way to ensure I write up the FAQ properly?

I have the article in the FAQ if you want to have a look, proofread, and then throw some extra details to me so I can update and make it more complete.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

The 034 belts were the ones with problems. I had one develop cracks in less than 5K and luckily I caught it before it broke and wrecked my build.

http://www.discountfleetsupply.com/gatt306rb.html


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

screwball said:


> The 034 belts were the ones with problems. I had one develop cracks in less than 5K and luckily I caught it before it broke and wrecked my build.
> 
> http://www.discountfleetsupply.com/gatt306rb.html


Thanks.

Updated the FAQ


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

The blue Gates timing belt part # is.........GR-T306RB


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

*BANG!*

http://www.raimotorsport.com/R-A-I-Motorsport-1-8T-Kevlar-Timing-Belt-p/rai-12008mgt-k.htm


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

*BANG* Look 6 posts up


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> *BANG* Look 6 posts up


Lol

Bang bang she bang


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

DMVDUB said:


> *BANG* Look 6 posts up


*ZING!*


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## 01ttgt28 (Jun 23, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> The blue Gates timing belt part # is.........GR-T306RB


Dame I just bought this belt and paid $95 :banghead:

Great quality


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

STOICH said:


> The Gates belt isn't Kevlar


:thumbup:
Gates does not make a HTD belt that uses "kevlar" threads for reinforcement as "kevlar" can not be attached to rubber and used in the application which a 1.8T would require it to be used in.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

So, RAI is lying about their belt being Kevlar (Kevlar™ Is a real fiber ((not an imaginary fabled substance made from unicorn pelts)) so the use of "kevlar" makes no sense). 

:sly:

I guess they just take a Goodyear belt and stamp something else on it...Oh, yeah... That's Illegal.

034 couldn't make the Kevlar work so nobody can. Yeah, sounds about right.



> Originally Posted by manhertm
> Having been interested in these belts, I realized they are unneccesary for 99% of us. 25K for a TB change is not a big deal and it still doesn't extend the service interval of the water pump or any other the other components related to a TB job. I've never heard of a TB failure on here unless the TB job was done wrong and there are people with 400AWHP running OEM belts.
> We do not agree with your statement. Here at RAI, the initial problem was seen when we were replacing cylinder heads and valves on cars that were well under the factory specified timing belt intervals. We knew that eventually this problem was going to be brought to the public, and it was in the lawsuit against Audi. We had already been designing our belts and testing them in the toughest conditions, because anything we sell has to carry our name and reputation, and far surpass anything previously offered. Engineering is taking something with a design flaw and improving on it, and that is what we did with the kevlar belt.





> FROM AUDIZINE - QUOTE FROM RAI
> It is unfortunate that our belt is being grouped with other offerings, like the one mentioned here or OEM. The OEM belt to us is a failure point on these engines, just as connecting rods are when upgrading, and this is why we don't even offer the OEM belt in our services. For us, a failed OEM belt takes away time and money for us, something that any company values. A simple look and feel of the belt shows the enormous difference in strength and rigidity that our belt offers. We have 0 failures to date, and stand behind anything we sell. I urge you to take the time to compare our belt to others, and see what steps we did take to ensure quality
> 
> We now ONLY offer the Kevlar belts in our 1.8T service (even for bone stock customers with no plans of mods), as extra peace of mind for both the customer and for us. Our belts have proven themselves on the streets where it counts. We do not think that these belts are for "Big turbo cars only" because every single 1.8T has a timing belt, and everyone could use a better designed belt. We have countless customers testing our product that are extremely attentive to their cars, and every small squeal or rattle brings them in for service. Because of this, the belts have to be made to last and extend past OEM specs. Also, for those who are putting them on performance builds, we have these belts on at least 2 GT35R 1.8Ts both daily driven, as well as a multitude of other performance built cars.
> ...


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

By the way...

GOOGLE GATES and KEVLAR together. NO they don't make any type of Kevlar belt... Because that wouldn't work! (GATES CROSSOVER)
I guess NISMO is lying too...I'm sure you're much better than the engineers they have.
If you search you can find instances of GATES made Kevlar belts Printed with other companies names on them everywhere. WRX, EVO, GTR, Silvia, etc. etc. etc.

What is the point of coming in here and spreading bold faced LIES?http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/377233-Kevlar-timing-belt-reviews-issues-failures

Emailed Gates to get the truth straight from the source.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Gates Returned my Emails swiftly... Here's the response from their representative. 

--Edited by groggory---
Gates asked for email screen caps be taken down

RAI BELT PART# VISIBLE


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

RAI:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

:beer: DMVDUB


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## 04 GLI Luva (May 30, 2007)

And boom goes the dynamite!

I got a Gates belt b/c for $60 shipped its definitely worth it, you can see and feel the difference when you hold this belt compared to a conti belt. 

Why are some retailers still sellings these belts for $100+ is what I dont get. :screwy:

The kevlar belts have had nothing but bad reviews, never was interested in those. 

Im always more prone to buy something from a company that has been known for making a particular product for a long time like Gates rather then buying a new version that a vw retailer has produced.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Got it...

Oem conti belt

Oem+ gates belt

034 Kevlar belt - multiple known issues

Rai / gates Kevlar belt


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

The RAI belt is an RAI belt, albeit produced by Gates. I wouldn't put them on the same level as the Gates standard production belts aside from QC and production. It isn't uncommon for Gates to produce a belt on behalf of other companies, but that doesn't put them in the same category when you boil it down.

I don't think there was ever a question that RAI's belt was Kevlar reinforced...

This is what happens when people rely on marketing information.

edit: I would trust the Gates belt over the RAI belt. Just my opinion.


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## ECS Tuning (Oct 2, 2006)

We use Gate Racing belts in our timing Ultimate Plus kits!

This blue kevlar timing belt from Gates Performance is constructed of HNBR elastomeric composites. That being said, they are 300% stronger than the OE belt & deliver up to three times the heat resistance.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Greg,
edit the above and clean up the noise....less drama more tech :thumbup:


DMVDUB said:


> Kevlar™ Is a real fiber ((not an imaginary fabled substance made from unicorn pelts)) so the use of "kevlar" makes no sense


Kevlar is actually the Dupont registered tradename for *Aramid®*. 

Gates does not use kevlar cord / fibre in there stock HTD product listings. I am not here to call anyone a liar. If RAI got Gates to make them a custom belt as shown above then I apologize if my post came across as that. I am simply here to state what I know about the Gates Racing program considering we (INA) brought the T306RB belt to the VW/Audi community. 

You can skin that cat anyway you wish but you can not change that fact that Gates Racing was commissioned by INA Engineering Inc. to make a racing version of there T306 belt (Gates Part # for the rubber replacement for OEM belt) which became T306RB , RB standing for "Racing Belt". I am proud when I say that no one knows as much about the Gates Racing program or the T306RB belt than us. :thumbup:

I have posted this quite a few times over the last couple of years and I will reiterate it here for the final time. In future I will simply copy and paste this thread. The Gates T306RB belt is a Nylon belt not an "kevlar" belt. Everyone that has them listed as a “Kevlar” belt needs to brush up on there chemistry and understand the construction of the belt. 



The compound the belts are reinforced with HNBR elastomeric composites. This is the rubber holding the belt together.
The portion reinforcing the spine of the belt is made of aramid tensile members
The portion of the belt that touches the Teeth on your camshaft , crankshaft & water pump is made of a *NYLON JACKET* not Kevlar.


When we started working with gates on the belt , aramid tensile fibres as the spine for the belt was not available. It was a "work in progress" so they opted to use fibreglass / nylon. 

--Edited by groggory---
Gates asked for email screen caps be taken down



There are over 10,000 different combinations that you can make a belt from. We have been using Gates custom application department for I started working with Gates back in 2006 to find belts for the 1.8T guys that were building hybrids:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1674618-20V-Hybrid-How-To/page19










Using the schematic above understand the difference between GT , GT2 and HTD belts. 


*can you make a belt with a kevlar? Yes you can*
Most synchronous 2,3,5,8, and 14mm pitch rubber belts are made with fiberglass tensile members.Typically you find aramid cords in industrial applications for syncronious belts that are 3mm or 5mm thick. Not a 25mm thick 1200mm long belt so it is an extremely custom application.


Also,
this is the rest of that email.

--Edited by groggory---
Gates asked for email screen caps be taken down


You do not have his permission to post up his correspondence on a public forum. :thumbup:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Thanks. I will update the FAQ article with the updated information and give credit where it's due.

:thumbup: as always


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

It's simple, your product didn't work. RAI's version does. If you want to report me for showing a screenshot of my email, go right ahead. 
:thumbup:

Like mentioned, REAL ENGINEERS, from REAL companies, use KEVLAR™ belts. I guess Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Mitsubishi, COSWORTH... Yeah, they don't know what they're doing.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Some good info above. The term 'Kevlar' is thrown around all too liberally for use in marketing.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

DMVDUB said:


> Like mentioned, REAL ENGINEERS, from REAL companies, use KEVLAR™ belts.


Please educate yourself on aramids / polymers.


DMVDUB said:


> It's simple, your product didn't work.


INA's product is the Gates T306RB .
It works and the most successful Gates Racing product to date. :thumbup:
I have been asked to bring other products to the market as external demand > internal requests and I have declined as ill give that opportunity to other vendors. Maybe you can take on the Gates RB for the serpentine belt? :thumbup:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes, it's used in marketing. Though, Gates stated that it is in fact used, and how to spot it. Cosworth uses Aramid extensively for cars a lot more powerful than ours and Nissan uses Aramid to strengthen the belts on the new GTR.

Issam will always claim everyone else is doing it wrong if he fails. The email he is showing you is how old? Does it explain how the tech for implementing the fiber into the belt has changed? He will always claim he is doing it better. 

I think when a company as large as Nissan uses it, that out weighs Issam's view. He failed years ago, and thinks everyone else will fail too. Just like all of the people that tried to make flying machines and failed, then there was the wright brothers moment when it was done successfully.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I almost fell over laughing! 

You have given up the opportunity to sell a product that is superior?

Why because you feel bad for IE? or ECS? 

Ok, Issam 
you may fool some people, but there are a LOT of us that you are not fooling. Go back to your High tech engineering facility:wave:


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

DMVDUB said:


> Yes, it's used in marketing.


Good . 
There are polymers / compounds out there that are as strong if not stronger than "kevlar" yes? 
Again:


INA said:


> I am simply here to state what I know about the Gates Racing program





INA said:


> There are over 10,000 different combinations that you can make a belt from.


Nothing further to discuss.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Exactly, you "CAN" make them from several different materials, true.

Is Aramid used for strengthening the cords, backing, etc.? Yes it is.

You stated 1. Gates doesn't make a belt with kevlar. 2. Kevlar cannot be used to make a belt because it can't be mated with rubber. 

1. They do make belts that use Kevlar (Aramid) 

2. Kevlar is a fiber so yes you can't mix it with rubber to make some super substance. It's used in the backing, cords and to strengthen the integrity of the teeth.

That is where this started Issam.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

HTD != GT / GT2 
Copy / Paste


Issam Abed said:


> :thumbup:
> Gates does not make a *HTD belt* that uses "kevlar" threads for reinforcement as "kevlar" can not be attached to rubber and used in the application *which a 1.8T would require it to be used in*.





INA said:


> [*]Most synchronous 2,3,5,8, and 14mm pitch rubber belts are made with fiberglass tensile members.*Typically you find aramid cords in industrial applications for syncronious belts that are 3mm or 5mm thick. Not a 25mm thick 1200mm long belt so it is an extremely custom application.*


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

you should not say, "we sell a kevlar belt"....

The RAI belt is just as much a kevlar belt as it is a rubber belt. It appears kevlar CAN be used in different parts of the belt, but has some drawbacks as it makes the belt prone to shrinkage/absorb moisture.....

Seems like some companies have tried to use kevlar in SOME areas of the belt, and not all areas have successfully accepted its use.

marketing can be deceptive.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

It's the same as my "Kevlar" vest. More of it is ceramic plates that are replaceable and actually takes the brunt of the force. Kevlar is just a material that strengthens the vest vs. using nylon to hold the plates. It's the same thing in different shapes. Ceramic makes the armor stronger than just "Kevlar" and vice versa.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

DMVDUB said:


> It's the same as my "Kevlar" vest..


Chalk vs cheese comparison.
You saying you have a kevlar belt is like me saying I have a steel tire.

In a Kevlar vest , the Kevlar is doing the job of keeping you safe. 
In a rubber tire , the rubber is doing the job of providing the friction contact between your vehicle and the road not the steel bands making it have a uniform shape.
In a timing belt , the nylon jackets are supplying the contact between the gear and the rest of the belt.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The FAQ has been updated with this new information.

If you're interested, give it a read and let me know if you feel I've written something in error.

Thanks.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Actually, the ceramic is the main constituate. Kevlar will stop a lighter round, ceramic will stop a heavy FMJ on incendiary rifle round, and keep the round from breaking my ribs, diaphragm, etc. as well as stopping impalement. The kevlar holds the main armor while providing another layer of protection. 

Think of the plate as the tire and the kevlar as steel belts.
would you rather have a steel belted tire or a nylon belted tire?

I'd rather not use a nylon plate carrier, even though it's lighter and cooler if I'm encountered with a threat.

The Kevlar is a helper in both cases. Is it needed, no. Does it help? yes.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

groggory said:


> The FAQ has been updated with this new information.
> 
> If you're interested, give it a read and let me know if you feel I've written something in error.
> 
> Thanks.


:beer:

oh yea i almost forgot.... OG GATES FTMFW :vampire:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Big_Tom said:


> :beer:
> 
> oh yea i almost forgot.... OG GATES FTMFW :vampire:


What's OG Gates?


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

groggory said:


> What's OG Gates?


Original Gangsta :laugh:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

CONTI right now FTW!
But, I'll be using a Gates Blue on my friends car and mine as well. 

I change mine in 40-50k intervals, just because... well why the hell not!


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

DMVDUB said:


> CONTI right now FTW!
> But, I'll be using a Gates Blue on my friends car and mine as well.
> 
> I change mine in 40-50k intervals, just because... well why the hell not!


i have a Conti with about 10k miles right now, but since i pulled the head recently I may pick up a Gates blue belt.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep, I'm pulling mine soon to do some various things. So, why the hell not.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Edited thread by request of Gates


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