# APR Stage 2+ Surge Issue on new 2013 Bug Turbo :(



## vwGTIMK6 (Aug 20, 2010)

I've seen quite a few number of threads on this issue so I apologize for starting another one but this is something that needs to be addressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YU4Qyvzzto

Sorry for the video being in portrait, it was the best I could do under the circumstances. The vehicle is a 2013 VW Beetle Turbo with the DSG Transmission -- APR Stage 2+ tune, APR ram air connected Carbino intake system, Stage 2 Carbino air intake pipe, USP Motorsports Catted Turbo downpipe, Borla complete cat back exhaust system. It also has new plugs gapped correctly, R8 red coils installed as per USP's suggestions.

This video will serve as documentation of the problem I have been having with my vehicle since the APR Stage 2+ tune. When the vehicle is in stock mode these issues do not occur at all even after being on the track all day and that includes having all the modifications on the vehicle. Additionally before the vehicle was upgraded these issues did not exist. The car currently has 2500 miles on it and was tuned at around 800 miles. 

When in the 93 octane tune mode the car slams 2nd gear, meaning when shifting from 1st into 2nd gear the car feels as if the clutch is slipping or that it can't shift fast enough, the car then hesitates, bucks slightly vibrates and feels as if it is going to stall and then jerks into 2nd. If you floor the pedal while it's doing that to help power through the shutter the car shifts through and vibrates hard when shifting out of 1st into 2nd. When the car is in 100 octane mode it is far worse even when running 103 octane gasoline. 

Under all conditions other than stock mode boost and power surges and bucks and bounces the car back and forth all between the power bands throughout all the gears, almost as if there is not enough throttle being applied or power being made to keep going. I understand the built in boost gauge in the bug is not a direct representation of the power being made but it helps illustrate the issue very clearly. 

This problem is not only detrimental to the performance and longevity of the vehicle but safety as well. When having to merge onto heavy fast moving traffic on i95 for example there have been times the power band drops out as I am pulling into traffic moving 75mph. This makes the car unpredictable and unsafe which is why I posted the video here. There are several other users with this same issue and complaint and it appears to have not been addressed by APR. Additionally the entire car was reviewed by my VW dealer and confirmed there are no issues with the hardware of the vehicle when the car is in the stock tune mode. 

I would also like to state this issue occurred in my 2011 VW GTi 2 door DSG vehicle as well at that car was APR tuned with the identical hardware upgrades as listed above. Overall I think several issues exist with the manner in which APR tunes vehicles. I think heat sink is a huge issue that is not addressed when upgrading overall.

I'm not an engineer but I feel one tune for a whole platform of cars doesn't address particular issues. Does each vehicle have its own tune, map, and so on? The way it was described to me by APR over the phone is that there is one tune for all the cars. But don't factory computers have different software, slightly different hardware? For example my bug made 303 TQ on the USP dyno but my GTi only 268. There has to be a difference somewhere in the software from the factory. ALl my other cars that I have ever had tuned, SRT-8 Jeep, Impala SS, Trailblazer SS, all had different tunes and software to fit the particular vehicle. Perhaps that is why so many have the surging issue. 

Additionally another issue I noticed with the Forge DV spacer installed was as I was accelerating the car sounded like it was purging boost and making the blow off hissing sound. It would randomly make the sound under or off of power load. I removed the Forge spacer and the car seems to be a little better but then as I drive during the day the fluttering and hesitation gets worse. Yes I have the AC off when I drive and I'm using the USP Traction Control button to make sure ESP is off as well.

The entire car was upgraded and modified by USP Motorsports directly in their shop here in Florida however they are a good hour and a half away making it difficult to make appointments and spend the day there with my line of work. Hopefully this video will shed some light on the issue and help find a resolution by both APR and USP.

Does this help eliminate the issue? http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content.asp?inc=product&cat=260304DV&product=FMFSITVR


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## Chris659 (Nov 16, 2012)

Since I'm not a stage II I won't take the poll but what did APR have to say when you contacted them directly? I scanned the post and see you took it to VW but no mention of speaking with APR...

And I would imagine that when they say all the cars share the same map, it's only the cars with the same motor. For example, you mentioned you had an SRT8 Jeep, so I would imagine that the tuners will share the same map amongst the SRT8 lineup as they all share the same motor. Unless the software also controls the transmission, there should be no harm in that.

One possibility as to why one of your cars made x hp and the other made y hp could be that not all 2.0TSI motors(and that's with all mass produced motors I would assume) made will produce exactly the same amount of power. Also unless you performed the dyno by the same operator, on the same day, in the same weather there's too many variables that could cause a difference in readings.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

APR does have to tune differently for every type of ecu. I found this out when they didn't have a tune for my beetle, yet other beetles had been tuned already.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Just watched the video, and that's weird. And no issues stock mode huh? Something is definitely wrong with the tune, have you had them reflash it?

Oh and just to throw it in there I have been apr stage 2 for a while and haven't had an issue.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Also have you run logs for APR? I'm sure they would get it fixed easily with a reflash


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## VuickB6 (Aug 4, 2006)

Pull your diverter valve (it's on the turbo and easy to get to) and check the part number. Chances are it's a C revision like mine and it's blown out. Order a D revision from ECS tuning and that should fix the problem like it did mine. :thumbup:


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## Dscot8r!2 (Dec 18, 2012)

Seems pretty clear there's a boost leak somewhere. I agree with the above poster. You either have a one way check valve gone bad, or your diverter can't hold maximum boost.

I've been Stage2+ since September and zero issues.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

If it was the valve he would have issues in stock mode as well. Even if it's a tiny pinhole


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## vwGTIMK6 (Aug 20, 2010)

I have the version D revision DV unit which was factory installed when I got the car, keeping in mind its a 2013 brand new vehicle.

The issues do not occur when the vehicle is in stock mode.

I do not have the logs yet as I'd have to drive 3 hours round trip just to get them, unless there is someone in the Jupiter Florida area that can help. (Not sure how or where to get the logs from, I believe I'd need a VAGcom setup correct?)

APR's response via the phone was that they have no idea why it happens. They asked for a video which I provided and I haven't heard back from them. Their automatic response is that it's a boost leak but the car was checked over 2 times and works fine. I get no check engine lights or error codes when in tuned mode or stock mode.

If I am not mistaken the DV is controlled electronically. Perhaps I have the wrong software or the flash was not done correctly or there is a revision for my car? Its such a common issue I don't know why its so hard to nail it down.

Do you guys think changing to the Forge DV unit I linked above would help? The car seemed to make an unusual amount of power on the most recent dyno run, 276hp and 299tqe. Perhaps there is in deed something different in the 2013's.

Does APR want to chime in here?


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Seriously man, just go get re-flashed, they probably just flashed the wrong software for your ecu.


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## vwGTIMK6 (Aug 20, 2010)

Chris659 said:


> And I would imagine that when they say all the cars share the same map, it's only the cars with the same motor. For example, you mentioned you had an SRT8 Jeep, so I would imagine that the tuners will share the same map amongst the SRT8 lineup as they all share the same motor. Unless the software also controls the transmission, there should be no harm in that.


When I've had other cars tuned it was done on a dyno first, software installed, numbers made. Then the car was taken on the street and tuned and refined again in different conditions to get the best possible outcome. 

I think APR's approach to tuning is ok for a stage 1 car but when you start really making more power, 75+ HP on top of stock, there needs to be more control. Each car and driver is different, so cookie cutting a single program for everyone in all different regions of the US doesn't really seem to work all the time, hence these issues people have. I'm sure all of APR's cars get tunes on the fly and the dyno not just the general maps everyone orders from them. I just feel there should be more support rather than just pointing fingers and boost leaks this or that. If a car is known to make certain power then APR should require certain upgrades in order to prevent issues.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

vwGTIMK6 said:


> When I've had other cars tuned it was done on a dyno first, software installed, numbers made. Then the car was taken on the street and tuned and refined again in different conditions to get the best possible outcome.
> 
> I think APR's approach to tuning is ok for a stage 1 car but when you start really making more power, 75+ HP on top of stock, there needs to be more control. Each car and driver is different, so cookie cutting a single program for everyone in all different regions of the US doesn't really seem to work all the time, hence these issues people have. I'm sure all of APR's cars get tunes on the fly and the dyno not just the general maps everyone orders from them. I just feel there should be more support rather than just pointing fingers and boost leaks this or that. If a car is known to make certain power then APR should require certain upgrades in order to prevent issues.


The problem with that theory is how much more help can they give you without being there? If you can't provide logs, and you aren't in their area what do you expect from them?

On another note, they do require certain modifications in order to go stage 2.

Save some money and get yourself a vagcom if you're going to be modifying vw's. It will help you tremendously in the long run.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

You say the spark plugs were changed and gapped correctly? How do you know they were gapped correctly? Did you gap them? If not there is a good chance that they are NOT gapped correctly.
May I asked what type of spark plug you used and what the actual gap is? 
Pull each plug and verify the condition and Gap. Also make sure you are running one heat range cooler than stock for the Stage 2 APR tune. 

Where was really no need to replace the coil packs for your application and yes the Diverter Valve on the 2013's and most of the 2012's were already the heavy duty "piston" type of valve rather than
the older Diaphram type valve used in earlier TSi engines. There is really no need to spend money on a Forge or other aftermarket valve unless you go Big Turbo. 

I would start with the spark plugs and then if that doesn't help swap your original coils back in and see if that changes anything. 

I agree with the previous poster. Get a Vag Com. It will pay for itself many times! Just because you don't have a check engine light on doesn't mean there aren't fault codes stored. 
With a Vag com you could very easily run a diagnostic and see what is going on. 

Good Luck and keep us posted.


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## vwGTIMK6 (Aug 20, 2010)

I get what your saying techy but I guess my gripe is you spend a lot of money for something it should be done right the first time out by a shop that is supposedly a direct dealer for APR. Shouldn't drop 5k and it doesn't run right.

I will double check the plugs, they are NGK

What plugs should I be using (one stop colder?) and where can I get the VAGcom stuff?

I will continue to search the forum but I appreciate the help guys, big time.


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## Chris659 (Nov 16, 2012)

vwGTIMK6 said:


> I get what your saying techy but I guess my gripe is you spend a lot of money for something it should be done right the first time out by a shop that is supposedly a direct dealer for APR. Shouldn't drop 5k and it doesn't run right.
> 
> I will double check the plugs, they are NGK
> 
> ...


So did usp motorsports make a custom tune for you or are you using apr tune out of the box? True once you go stage II it is more beneficial to have a custom tune made based on your car. 

I'm thinking if usp made the custom tune they need to be held responsible not apr...


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## VuickB6 (Aug 4, 2006)

vwGTIMK6 said:


> I have the version D revision DV unit which was factory installed when I got the car, keeping in mind its a 2013 brand new vehicle.


The D revision has been out for several years now yet there are new cars showing up with them now and again. Have you visually verified yours has a D revision? The fact that it's a 2013 doesn't guarantee a D revision.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

vwGTIMK6 said:


> I get what your saying techy but I guess my gripe is you spend a lot of money for something it should be done right the first time out by a shop that is supposedly a direct dealer for APR. Shouldn't drop 5k and it doesn't run right.
> 
> I will double check the plugs, they are NGK
> 
> ...


I would stick with the OEM NGK plugs just one heat range cooler to be on the safe side and a slightly smaller gap. 

The Vag Com can be had here:

The Micro unit will work with your car but the Hex Can is the best overall unit which has all the features and will scan the older as well as New VAG cars.

http://store.ross-tech.com/shop/VCHUC.html

http://store.ross-tech.com/shop/VCuCAN.html


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## Tvp125 (Mar 4, 2008)

I have been stage 2 for 15K miles now and have never had that happen.


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## vwGTIMK6 (Aug 20, 2010)

Here are the plugs USP Motorsports put in. As I said above the car had about 800 miles on it. I'm not sure if they are suposta look that nasty with the car only have 3000 miles on it. Either way USP didn't gap them correctly 0.034 spacing. I put in the PFR7B plugs and the car is much stronger and more stable however the fluttering and surge still exists. Trying to setup an appointment to get the car reviewed however I want to go to a different shop as I am very unhappy with USP's work and general business practices.

Where's that Alvin guy from APR when you need him huh...?


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## vwGTIMK6 (Aug 20, 2010)

I also confirmed that I have the D revision of the DV unit as well.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

vwGTIMK6 said:


> Here are the plugs USP Motorsports put in. As I said above the car had about 800 miles on it. I'm not sure if they are suposta look that nasty with the car only have 3000 miles on it. Either way USP didn't gap them correctly 0.034 spacing. I put in the PFR7B plugs and the car is much stronger and more stable however the fluttering and surge still exists. Trying to setup an appointment to get the car reviewed however I want to go to a different shop as I am very unhappy with USP's work and general business practices.
> 
> Where's that Alvin guy from APR when you need him huh...?


The Guy's name from APR is Arin. Alvin works for Dave and is one of the Chipmunks 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/member.php?411729-Arin-APR


Yup, those plugs shouldn't look like that after only a couple of thousand miles. The gap wasn't really that much off so it shouldn't have made that much off a difference. I believe stock gap is 0.032 however with the Stage 2 tune I would recommend a slightly smaller gap to 0.028 

Personally, I wouldn't have gone with Platinum Plugs for a Performance application. Either Copper or Iridium. The Iridium equivalent for the plugs you purchased are NGK BKR7EIX 

Seems there is something off with the tune since you seem to be running a tad on the rich side.

Hopefully you will get it all taken care off soon.


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## LEBlackRob (Feb 1, 2012)

Not insulting anybody here but last time I checked 100+ octane is not good on a catalytic converter. I also hope your not one of the poor guys floating your valves.


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