# How long will NAR G1 Phaetons last?



## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Hi all,

I ran across some interesting data on the web today.

*Median age of vehicles*

Median Age of Automobiles and Trucks in Operation in the United States

Year Automobiles 
2003 8.6 
2004 8.9 
2005 9.0 
2006 9.2 
2007 9.2 
2008 9.4 

This means that all of our Phaetons are below the median age of automobiles in the US.

That then raises the question as to average lifespan of cars. This is more difficult to obtain, but it states *here*: “With improvements in the quality of automobiles over the years, a well-maintained car should remain reliable for at least 10 years and 100,000 miles. The U.S. Department of Transportation reports the average life span of a vehicle is 12 years or 128,500 miles. Surveys have shown that, on the average, a person trades in or sells a car when it is only 4 1/2 years old with just 41,000 miles on it.”

Other *sites* are more optimistic: "The average life cycle of a new car is 15 years..." The Senate's Joint Economic Committee (link seems to be dead) notes: "Vehicles today have an average life of 13 years..."

The numbers thus seem congruent: One can expect a car to last 12-15 years at this point. This figure is remarkably in keeping with my *personal experience* . 

Based on all of this, all else being equal, a 2004 Phaeton should last until 2016 to 2019. Of course, this will be dependent on driving style, regular maintenance, and, perhaps the biggest unknowns of all: cost and availability of parts. 

Nevertheless, I think all of us here should take heart from these data. We should be driving Phaetons for many years to come.

Victor


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Victor R said:


> Hi all,
> 
> .....
> Based on all of this, all else being equal, a 2004 Phaeton should last until 2016 to 2019. Of course, this will be dependent on driving style, regular maintenance, and, perhaps the biggest unknowns of all: cost and availability of parts.
> ...


Victor:

I'm obviously betting you are right and hoping a Phaeton that is driven less than normal miles will equal or exceed the averages noted. I'm even one of the optimists living without a warranty. 

Thanks for the info.

Jim X


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Victor:

Thanks for posting the information, it makes for interesting reading.

I think the primary determinant of how long we will be able to keep our Phaeton's going will be parts availability. The vehicle is complex, and most of the complexity is in the electronic systems, rather than in mechanical systems. Many of these electronic systems (the TPMS sensors being a good example) are not common to other vehicles, and by nature, electronics have a very short production lifetime - the TPMS sensors used on the MY 2003 to 2007 Phaetons have already been superseded by a new type of sensor on the 2008 and later production cars.

My concern here is that in (for example) another 5 years time, it might be quite difficult to source these sensors... because there is a very small market for them (only high-end cars that were produced between 2002 and 2007), manufacturers may not continue to make them, and distributors may not continue to stock them.

Assuming that parts availability issue doesn't get us, the next major worry I have is cost of a repair vs. the real value of the vehicle. I have a 2004 W12 that I have owned since new. The car only has about 50,000 miles on it, and for the last few years, I have been driving it less than 1,000 miles a year (it's my only car, but I live in a small village, and I spend a lot of time out of the country). Regardless of how much I like this car - and I do like it a lot - I have got to admit that I will really have to think twice if I ever get to a point where I have to spend a lot of money repairing a single component - for example, the engine, or the transmission, or the exhaust system, or an emissions sensor replacement, or (God forbid) the suspension. Any one of these items failing in the future could result in a $5 to $10K repair bill, and looking at things dispassionately, it would be pretty hard for me to justify an expense like this on a 8 or 10 year old car that might just turn around and bite me in the ass a few months later with _another_ $5 to $10K repair bill.

I guess what I am saying is this: As long as the car runs well and only requires scheduled preventative maintenance service, wear parts replacement (brakes, tires), and minor parts replacement (batteries, TPMS sensors, that kind of $200 to $500 stuff), I'll keep the car and enjoy it. But, the first time that the car presents me with a major repair bill, I'm going to have to think seriously about the economics of keeping the car. In the case of the W12 engine Phaetons, the risk of a sudden very expensive repair bill is fairly high, simply because the engine and transmission has to be removed to carry out many tasks that typically come due around the 7 year / 80,000 mile mark, such as an alternator replacement or an oxygen sensor replacement.

Michael


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Long-term experience*



Victor R said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This figure is remarkably in keeping with my *personal experience* .


Victor,
Thank you for the interesting post. I have a pet theory that I'm striving to test: that it should be possible to maintain a car on the road indefinitely with a high degree of reliability by using an approach similar to that of an airline to keep a plane in the air: i.e. systematic checks and replacement of components when they approach the end of their service life but before they fail.
The weak points, of course, are two: continued availability of spare parts, and weather it's economical to continue to maintain at such a high standard when the cost myght exceed the value of the vehicle. 

My results so far:
- 1991 Acura Legend Coupe, 113Kmiles: twenty years and top notch functionality and reliability, car drives and handles like new.
- 2002 Subaru Outback Limited, 118kmiles: 9yrs, rapidly increasing maintenance expense, very good reliability but definitely not "like new". 

The wear and tear on the Subaru is definitely higher and more noticeable than on the other car. While some of this may be due to quality of design and construction, I believe most of the difference with the Legend is due to the much heavier usage over a much shorter period of time. So, for me at least, it's not just age or mileage, but more a combination of the two.

Regarding the Phaeton, my story is similar to Michael's: I too have had mine since new (it's only a V8 though) with 57k miles: spectacularly reliable to-date, and with an extended warranty. Longer term, I'm definitely concerned about parts availability. I'm a little less concerned about the cost of repairs, not because I'm wealthy (I'm not) but because I envision eventually being able to do almost all of them myself, a big savings on labor. Even so, the point may come when it's no longer possible to keep it safely on the road: I don't quite know what I'll do but I suspect I might be tempted to store it (sort of like adding it to the "permanent" collection). My feeling is that, like some famous cars of the past, it's not just a great vehicle but also an outstanding example of a way to design and make a car that we are not likely to ever see again: born of the vision of one person, and executed with very little attention to cost. Worth keeping, I feel.
Stefano


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## eurolok003 (Mar 16, 2009)

My feelings exactly.:thumbup:


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm sure I'm not comparing apples to apples but I have a 27 year old Porsche 911.

We started tracking it when it was 13 years old and it's as fun to drive now, feels as tight and runs as well as it did 15 years ago when I purchased it.

It has almost zero electronics except for Motronic engine management and power windows. Parts availability is great but I suspect a large percentage of the cars are still on the road and there a fairly large number of them.

If parts availability doesn't present a problem and used parts become increasingly available, I hope the Phaetons can keep rolling along for years to come.

It amazes me how well the cars seem to hold up, the high mileage examples still look great, it is a testament to the quality of engineering and materials that went in to producing these cars!


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

My wife's 2002 BMW 530i just went in for its 100,000 mile service. We bought this car new, and it has been remarkably reliable and repair and maintenance costs have been not excessive - until now. Cost today: $3.5 K!!!  That makes the cost for my Phaeton's 100,000 mile service look cheap by comparison, though the extended warranty on the Phaeton essentially picked up the difference. 

While I am concerned about part availability for the Phaeton, my main concern in having the cars last many more years remains cost. Other than that, the cars should last, especially given how well they are holding up. Keep in mind, the figures I posted are average numbers, and one would expect higher end cars to last longer than average. 

One way to control costs is to do the work yourself. I regret that I am not a DIY guy, which is why I feel so strongly about the extended warranty. My experience with the VW (Fidelity) warranty has been excellent. Without this, I would not have bought the second Phaeton and would likely be driving something else once the warranty on my Coucou Grey one expires.

On the other hand, just because I would be looking to sell the car, that wouldn't mean that the car itself isn't lasting. Last I heard, my 1978 Seville is still on the road...

Victor

(I sure hope I am right. I now have three cars with over 100,000 miles :facepalm


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Update:

New statistics found *here* now show the average age of passenger cars operational in the US in 2011 to be 11.1 years.

That means even 2004 model year Phaetons remain significantly under the average age for all passenger cars in the US.

Victor


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Interesting comments. I think TPMS sensors are about bottom of my list of things to worry about as my car ages. For many of the non-critical electronic systems, if parts aren't available or are prohibitively expensive, I envisage just turning them off, disabling them, or just living with the fact that they don't work.

+1 for John's comments about Porsche. My 1986 944 Turbo still feels tight and drives as well as a new one. Parts are still readily available, but it obviously doesn't have the complex systems that the Phaeton does.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

In dealing with the purchases of large, very expensive pieces of equipment/technology over my career, I learned about the the concept of EOL - End-of-life - for products. Manufactures would typically send out an EOL letter, informing customers that that the product is at the end of its useful lifetime and that the vendor will no longer be marketing, selling, or sustaining that particular product and also be limiting or ending support for that product. (That is when we knew we needed to replace our machines or run risks of potentially catastrophic costs or being out of business...)

I know that this concept extends to consumer products as well; for example, in 2008, Microsoft originally declared Windows XP would soon be end-of-life, though they promised support until 2009 and software patches until 2014. (They have since extended this because of backlash they received...)

I have not heard this EOL concept discussed as far as motor vehicles are concerned. I would be interested to know if anyone can shed light on this. This would have major implications as far as parts availability would be concerned.

Victor


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The day I think my Phaeton is anything like a Microsoft product, it'll be gone!


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*TPMS sensors*

In late 2011, I replaced our 2006 Touareg TPMS sensors with Beru RDE 005. Looking at the removed VW OEM sensors, it was uncanny to see that *the VW/Audi sensor was made in Germany and stamped by Beru*.... the exact same as the replacements. The only real difference is that the original was grey, the replacement was orange and that the replacement cost less than 1/2 of what the dealership was offering.

For 2004 Phaeton, the sensor is the Beru RDE 001, and this sensor is shared with other vehicles.

I am of the opinion that other replacement parts such as unique-for-VIN wire harnesses will become the show stopper before consumables shared with other cars, such as the TPMS sensors, do.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Victor R said:


> I have not heard this EOL concept discussed as far as motor vehicles are concerned. I would be interested to know if anyone can shed light on this.


Hi Victor:

EOL is well established in the automotive industry. I also own a 1998 Golf. It is not possible to buy many trim components from VW North America any more - they just don't stock them. It is still possible to buy some (but not all) of the 'unavailable in North America' components from the VW dealers in Europe. This seems to be dependent on what the average age of cars in the different European countries are. I could not source any of the 'unavailable in North America' components from VW in Switzerland (where cars are normally exported after about 7 years of life), but could get about 75% of them from VW in Greece.

I think the general rule of thumb is that the manufacturer will provide all the parts for 10 years, after that, the 'non-mission-critical' parts might start to disappear. I think that parts availability is also heavily influenced by the size of the fleet remaining on the road, and in that respect, NAR Phaeton owners are probably in the bottom 1% so far as our good luck goes. There were probably only about 4 to 5 thousand Phaetons imported to NAR over the 3 years that the car was available, my guess is that perhaps half of those are still on the road today... and, the car is an 'orphan' so far as North America is concerned.

I suspect that in Europe, VW will support the 'legacy fleet' (2003 to 2007 models) more comprehensively, simply because they are still selling the vehicle today, plan to keep selling it in the future, and they want to keep the marque's image up.

Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

My speculation is parts will be available in NA markets longer than one might guess. If they are available in Europe, then they are available in the US… just have to figure out who has the connections.

I base this on conversations I've had with my Porsche part supplier. There are just a few large importers/wholesalers that serve most part suppliers and service repair facilities. Only a handful with large enough volumes actually buy directly from the sources in Europe.

He specializes in 928 (produced from 1978 to 1995), not in great numbers either and without the following of the 911 crowd. He maintains a list of parts that are NLA and it’s not as big as one would think. In fact I was floored to learn many interior plastic trim pieces were still available and cheaper than what salvage yard & ebay used.

Finding knowledgeable technicians might be another issue. My theory is enough Audi A8 W12 exist that independent service facilities that specialize in German cars will be capable. 

As far as averages, I have an 87 with 110K, a 92 with 120K, an 04 with 50K, and a 99 with 25K. With reasonable care 200K is not unusual; with extraordinary car 300K & 400K is not unheard of. 

I drove a 3.8l Bonneville to 230K, a 3.8L supercharged Park Avenue past 200K, a northstar STS to 175K. In all cases the engines were running strong, but the transmissions were getting a little iffy.

I'm not worried about the W12 engine failing anytime soon, but I am concerned that the alternator requires it's removal to replace. Maybe by then there will be enough DIY articles online to do it at home.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Auzivision said:


> My theory is enough Audi A8 W12 exist that independent service facilities that specialize in German cars will be capable.


Not to forget that VW was, at one point, importing upwards of 6,000 'Beverly Hills Chevys' (Bentley Continentals) a year to North America, and they are for the most part exactly the same thing (mechanically and electrically) as a W12 Phaeton.

So, overall mechanical parts availability should not be a big problem, with the exception of a few 'very exceptional' components, such as the early production air shocks.

Michael


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

So what did they do with the early air shocks on the Bentleys? I thought they we the same exact units installed on the early production Phaetons.

Damon


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Dealers probably changed them all on the first 2005 service and the owners never bothered looking at the service invoice...


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

While I'm in this mood, it's a good time to propose that if Michael ever needs another new transmission (or else would let the car go) that us fellow owners should club together... Kind of like an extended warranty for us all!


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Steady Chris,

There's at least 2 of us Yorkies on here you know!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Well from what I hear, that brass-counting exterior hides hearts of gold...!


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

*Smithsonian Institution*

Michael,

Maybe the Smithsonian Institution will be interested in your W12, when you are ready to get rid of it....

The only question is which actual building they would choose to display it in.... Perhaps the Flying Museum? 

(I have never been to Washington DC, but I have seen the Smithsonian in magazines and various TV specials. Love their spaceship/Moon shot and history of aviation museum. So, I do not know if they accept anything foreign (i.e. from Canada))


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Passat2001_5lover said:


> Michael,
> 
> Maybe the Smithsonian Institution will be interested in your W12, when you are ready to get rid of it....


I think I'll have that Phaeton for a long time. I'm only driving it about 500 miles a year, because I am out of town all the time. I leave on Saturday to deliver a new aircraft to Singapore, via Alaska, Siberia, Manchuria... should be interesting to see all those places in the dead of winter. In theory, it's a 9 day flight. In reality, this particular aircraft does not have surface de-icing equipment (boots, heated windshield, etc.), so, it might take me a long time to get to where I am going. It's basically a 'sunny day plane' only.

Michael


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

That's like Marco Polo, only east to west... In this world of scheduled travel, your trip sounds as if you should have a film crew with you, and BBC backing... amazing.

Chris


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

Victor R said:


> Update:
> 
> New statistics found *here* now show the average age of passenger cars operational in the US in 2011 to be 11.1 years.
> 
> ...


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hey, hold the horses, the funeral cortege isn't starting anytime yet!

I'll surely keep mine to the end of the decade, fate willing, and Dresden is currently churning them out, sorry, hand-crafting, as fast as they can! Even if the brochure is in Chinese.

Best,
Chris


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Motorista said:


> Victor,
> Thank you for the interesting post. I have a pet theory that I'm striving to test: that it should be possible to maintain a car on the road indefinitely with a high degree of reliability by using an approach similar to that of an airline to keep a plane in the air: i.e. systematic checks and replacement of components when they approach the end of their service life but before they fail.
> The weak points, of course, are two: continued availability of spare parts, and weather it's economical to continue to maintain at such a high standard when the cost myght exceed the value of the vehicle.


I really agree with you on this. A modern car with a modern engine and transmission, barring a serious manufacturing defect, will outlast the body if they're well cared for. A dollar on maintenance is worth five or ten later emergency repairs. All three of my cars get obsessive maintenance and monitoring.

A corollary to this is that you need to keep up on repairs, even the minor stuff like interior and exterior trim pieces, before it builds up. This isn't for reliability's sake, directly, but it's to preserve your enjoyment of the car. When your car feels whole, when there's not a bunch of stuff broken or damaged and stuff that squeaks and rattles, that makes you willing to hang onto it longer. Wear and tear is a fact of life. But, if you let a number of minor things start sliding, that eventually builds up into a feeling of "hey, this car is a piece of junk" and that's when you start wanting to get rid of it. Keeping up with the little stuff can be hard if you're on a budget and you rely on a dealer to work on your car, but it's easy if you're a DIYer. It amazes me how people are willing to get back on the monthly car payment treadmill to avoid relatively small repairs.

Speaking for myself, I'm less about the appearance of a car (although it helps) and much more about the driving experience. For my last three cars, VW has delivered that for me in a way other manufacturers just don't, somehow. My Passat has accumulated a few dings and scratches on the outside, but it runs and drives like it just left the showroom. VW cars aren't exactly known for being low-maintenance, but I'm also a tinkerer at heart and I don't mind having things to do, so it's been a great match for me. I follow the philosophy above and it's served me well.

Jason


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

One challenge omitted from the end-of-life / cost-of-ownership/when-to-change debate is the cost of replacement. 
Assuming we paid with our own cash for these cars, almost always the lifetime cost of ownership declines the longer it is owned. The main cost is depreciation, even allowing for a few expensive repairs as things get older. 
So if you dispose of a Phaeton, you still have to replace it with something else, and it’s more likely to be an A8 / 7 series than a VW golf. The day the new luxury car arrives on your drive it is costing you a significant figure in depreciation: much higher depreciation than an ageing Phaeton, and probably offsets potential Phaeton repairs!
The finance model may be different for other people & countries. 

*The other challenge is: what to replace a Phaeton with that delivers similar all round luxury, reliability & practicality.*
Regards
Hugh


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Just for fun I 'configured' a new UK-sourced A8 4.2TDI with the identical spec to my Phaeton V10, as far as possible. It lists at £89k ($137k).

Then I checked the depreciation prediction on whatcar.com, which showed a residual of perhaps £26k ($40k) after 4 years.

Throw in £4k for the first 4 years maintenance, and the cost of ownership is £67k, assuming that lost interest is negligible in the current economic climate.

Considering that the V10 should last another 8 years as a daily driver (to say 125k miles) with a satisfaction, performance and comfort level very, very close to that of a 1 to 8 year old Audi, that gives me a good margin for repairs, however severe.

Of course, the MY2015 4-cylinder Phaeton might yet tip the balance. 

But I must say (no offense to Audi owners - and I recently bought an A3 Sportback) that the A8 gives nowhere near the same feeling of smugness when you sit in it that the Phaeton does.

Chris


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

I've certainly found that with those from Harrogate!


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Expoman said:


> I've certainly found that with those from Harrogate!


Sorry, pressed the wrong button this, it's a response to an earlier post from Chris, seems a bit incongrous here without a quote from the initial post!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

A propos of nothing much, other than the thread title, I thought this visual comment quite good fun...

http://karakullake.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-people-think-i-do-vw-phaeton.html

Chris


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## AngloBulgarian (Feb 22, 2012)

PanEuropean said:


> Victor:
> I think the primary determinant of how long we will be able to keep our Phaeton's going will be parts availability. The vehicle is complex, and most of the complexity is in the electronic systems, rather than in mechanical systems. Many of these electronic systems (the TPMS sensors being a good example) are not common to other vehicles, and by nature, electronics have a very short production lifetime - the TPMS sensors used on the MY 2003 to 2007 Phaetons have already been superseded by a new type of sensor on the 2008 and later production cars.
> Michael


I think i can offer a glimmer of hope here - i am a massive fan of the W140 shape Merc S class (1990's model) and have had several. They are the first car ever to have OBD1 and actually have 13 separate computers on-board. I.E. a lot of electronics that are now up to 20 years old and are obviously a) failing b) Obsolete c) ££££££££ from Merc. This has led to several very professional dismantlers who specialize in NOTING else but W140 mercs i.e. W140.co.uk they will provide you with any part from any version of this range, tested and off the shelf. The last thing i bought was the complex vacuum pump/control unit that does 70% of the "moving" items in the car and it cost me £150 v £2000 from Merc.

The business is so strong they dont even rely on accident damaged cars to fulfill demand - they actually buy perfectly good cars off ebay and brake them up to meet demand. 

Im am confident this will happen very very soon with the Phaeton - lets face it €3-4k for a write off - you would soon get that back with some professional dismantling, after all the electronics, engine, gearbox dont usually get damaged in a crash!!!!!!

I can only assume this is exactly what will happen with the Phaeton. You will be able


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## DuncanW12 (Sep 16, 2012)

*Experience With High Miles / Costs*

04 W12 has been my daily driver, after the extended warranty expired a year or so ago it became my once twice a week or less driver . I have a number of other cars, trucks, bikes -the Pheaton w12 is a favorite. Since no warranty and with driving less then 6,000 miles a year ... now at 105,000+ miles she is starting to cost big bucks to keep her going, and getting tough to justify the adventure. As I write this she's at the dealer getting fuel pump(s) ... $2,750. (They offered $2,500 including a needed battery, apparently as shocked at the cost as I was). Also needs tire pressure sensor batteries (ie whole sensor etc) ... $700-$1,000+ depending on OEM parts and who does the work. 6 months ago... It needed a $45 air conditioning part.. that cost $350 labor to install. The transmission was replaced at 78,000 miles under VW Platinum extended warranty .. the part cost $5,500... This just goes on and on and on... I felt the same stealth wealth smugness at owning perhaps one of the best appointed, most comfortable, fast, interesting cars ever... similar to the I'm smart feeling I felt when I bought my first Prius.. that I know something. Now what I know is this puppy is getting expensive. Indeed tough decision to call the raises or fold.


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## DuncanW12 (Sep 16, 2012)

*Some experience with costs of high miles Pheaton W12*

04 W12 has been my daily driver, after the extended warranty expired a year or so ago it became my once twice a week or less driver . I have a number of other cars, trucks, bikes -the Pheaton w12 is a favorite. Since no warranty and with driving less then 6,000 miles a year ... now at 105,000+ miles she is starting to cost big bucks to keep her going, and getting tough to justify the adventure. As I write this she's at the dealer getting fuel pump(s) ... $2,750. (They offered $2,500 including a needed battery, apparently as shocked at the cost as I was). Also needs tire pressure sensor batteries (ie whole sensor etc) ... $700-$1,000+ depending on OEM parts and who does the work. 6 months ago... It needed a $45 air conditioning part.. that cost $350 labor to install. The transmission was replaced at 78,000 miles under VW Platinum extended warranty .. the part cost $5,500... This just goes on and on and on... I felt the same stealth wealth smugness at owning perhaps one of the best appointed, most comfortable, fast, interesting cars ever... similar to the I'm smart feeling I felt when I bought my first Prius.. that I know something. Now what I know is this puppy is getting expensive. Indeed tough decision to call the raises or fold.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Duncan (I assume),

Sounds like you've done enough work that your W12 should continue running rather well for a long time.

But if you are questioning it to yourself, maybe you should move over and pass it on to another person to enjoy. 

Do you have a yearning for a particular replacement? A new equivalent (if there is such a thing) will run you to the tune of $150k over 5 years according to Edmunds, only two of which will feel like you have a 'newly manufactured' car. Will the W12 swallow that much?

Cheers,
Chris


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## 53 0val (Feb 23, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Hi Duncan (I assume),
> 
> Sounds like you've done enough work that your W12 should continue running rather well for a long time.
> 
> ...


Chris makes an interesting point. I drove the Audi A8L W12 last week, and I could not see or sense much of a difference between my car and the new one, especially when you consider the new Audi's $140,000 price tag. I think I'll keep the '06 for awhile longer. The "replacement" can wait. 

Bob


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Interesting that this topic should pop up again this week.

Prior to leaving for Australia last Friday, I dropped my Phaeton off at the local VW dealer for some long overdue service. Although I have not used the car very much (4,000 km in 3 years), all sorts of little problems were accumulating - the TPMS sensors had time-expired and needed to be replaced, the oil and oil filter needed to be changed, general service was due, the CEL (Check Engine Light) was on due to a secondary air system leak, one of the park distance control sensors was not working, etc., etc.

None of these problems were 'serious' in the sense that they stopped me from using the car, but all of them were annoying. I have an extended warranty (the 'Platinum' RealDriver warranty), but that will only cover the CEL and the park distance sensor - certainly not the TPMS or the regular scheduled service.

I'm going to guess that the repair bill for all the above stuff, plus any other problems that the technician might find while inspecting the car, will be between $3,000 and $5,000. Although that is rather high for a routine service visit, it's actually very cheap if I look at it as being the cost of running this car since the last service visit 3 years ago - approximately $1,000 to $1,500 per year, which is peanuts. Heck, I couldn't even lease a new Polo for less than $6,000 a year.

The concept of a 'nominal value' of the car is relatively meaningless to me. The car is long since paid for (I originally obtained it on a single-payment 4 year lease, then bought out the residual when the lease ended, paying cash). It doesn't matter to me what the resale value is, what matters is that it would cost me a fortune to replace my 2004 W12 with an equivalent vehicle. So, with that thought in mind, as long as my repair costs stay under $6,000 a year - which is pretty likely considering how little I drive the car - I will keep this same vehicle.

If the repair costs start to look like they will exceed $6,000 a year, then I guess I'll go lease a nice new Polo (preferably a well-equipped one). 

Michael


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

To my eyes the Phaeton is still 'current style'. Periodically the car world turns itself upside down and fundamental styling and feature sets change: creases appear and disappear, grilles get larger then vanish, a retro image bursts out then creeps away again, media enhancements are added. But the P still sits very comfortably in any car park next to any other car, and even if you park it outside a new dealership of any brand it seems to maintain its confidence.

Because the P had 'everything' when it was conceived, it is still in the mainstream. I know you can now get adaptive cruise on a Ford hatchback, and we don't get a factory USB socket, but there are minor updates we can make to tweak the media.

I would say that so far it's 'business as usual'.

Chris


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

PanEuropean said:


> Interesting that this topic should pop up again this week.
> .
> .
> I'm going to guess that the repair bill for all the above stuff, plus any other problems that the technician might find while inspecting the car, will be between $3,000 and $5,000. Although that is rather high for a routine service visit, it's actually very cheap if I look at it as being the cost of running this car since the last service visit 3 years ago - approximately $1,000 to $1,500 per year, which is peanuts. Heck, I couldn't even lease a new Polo for less than $6,000.
> ...


Michael,

I agree with your financial gymnastics. We all, me included, get obsessed with the cost of repairs on the Phaeton. The biggies normally discussed are the transmission and the air suspension at around $10k per repair. However, even these repairs can be easily recouped in an additional two years of driving. 

A well maintained Phaeton absent of a host of critical deferred maintenance tasks is not going to immediately fall part at some point in time or mileage. It will just gradually fade away into the sunset. (very fitting for the P). . However, one can certainly lose a transmission, air shock, starter, alternator, AC compressor, etc. at any point in time or mileage. And when it happens, we'll all be here to console the unfortunate forum member. 

P.S. I'll be the first to whine and seek some sympathy!


Jim X


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Paximus said:


> To my eyes the Phaeton is still 'current style'. Periodically the car world turns itself upside down and fundamental styling and feature sets change: creases appear and disappear, grilles get larger then vanish, a retro image bursts out then creeps away again, media enhancements are added. But the P still sits very comfortably in any car park next to any other car, and even if you park it outside a new dealership of any brand it seems to maintain its confidence.


I agree, assuming you're not talking about the face-lifted model! Apart from road rash on one rim, when washed mine still looks pretty new, and parked next to a brand new model looks as if it might be a couple of years old. The latest VW style, to my eye, looks like a step backwards, and I suspect the style of the current models will age more quickly than the previous corporate style.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> However, one can certainly lose a transmission, air shock, starter, alternator, AC compressor, etc. at any point in time or mileage.


Also true of Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Hyundai, Ford, GM, Toyota, Lexus...

I don't think anyone seriously suggests that the P is not at least of average build quality, and I assume it's probably much better.

Chris


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Paximus said:


> Also true of Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Hyundai, Ford, GM, Toyota, Lexus...
> 
> I don't think anyone seriously suggests that the P is not at least of average build quality, and I assume it's probably much better.
> 
> Chris


Chris:

You're right and often times repair costs are equally exhorbitant on many of the vehicles you list.

The longer I keep my Phaeton the more convinced I am about it's solid long-term reliability compared to other luxury cars. Some of this comes from my own personal experience with my Phaeton, but more is from forum feedback. Every time someone bemoans the problems of their personal Phaeton, a host of owners reply with outstanding experiences. I can't recall the number of times I have heard the Phaeton described as "the most reliable car I have ever owned." That's an impressive testimonial. 

Most of the early problems with the Phaeton were with electronics and software. Thus, the reputation as a "moneypit" to some. Most of that has been sorted out by now. Controllers are boxes full of electronics, which if kept dry  and don't overheat, can last indefinitely. The overall parts count is high on the Phaeton due to all of the convenience and creature comforts, so there will be more issues than might occur in a Honda Civic. However, most of us enjoy those features and would rather not do without them.

Jim X


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Other than the potential major issues of transmission and suspension, my biggest concern once my warranty expires is the amount of time and parts it takes for the dealers to diagnose issues. Things that might be merely expensive can quickly turn into things that are horrendously expensive when the dealer starts swapping out controllers because they're not sure which one's causing the problem. My recent ABS problem would have cost around $2000 had it been correctly diagnosed. As it was, the warranty ended up paying over twice that, and the guy who had the same ABS controller failure was looking at a $7k bill because they misdiagnosed it as a transmission fault. That's getting on for catastrophic territory, you could probably put in a reconditioned transmission for about that price.


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

I can't remember if this has been discussed here before, but just in case: In the most recent German TÜV reliability survey - which is considered as one of the most exhaustive studies on this subject anywhere - the results were as follows:

Most reliable car, age group 2-3 years: Toyota Prius (avg. major fault rate 1,9%, avg. mileage 39000km). Phaeton is 11th (fault 3,4%, mileage 54000km): this place is shared with VW EOS, Tiguan and Porsche 911. Audi A8 is 24th (fault 4,2%, mileage 81000km). MB S-class is 100th (7,5% fault, 70 000 km). BMW 7 did not make it to top 127.

Most reliable car, age group 4-5 years: VW Phaeton (fault rate 2,4%, avg. mileage 76000km). Prius is now on second position, followed by Porsche Boxster/Cayman and then VW EOS. Audi A8 is now 8th. MB S-class is 40th (avg 8,3%, 88000km - this is quite a difference with Phaeton, eh?).

Source: Auto Bild Spezial: TÜV –report 2012, 12/16/2011.

Jouko 

PS: I should have a fairly trouble-free fleet, if this study is to believed


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Jouko:

Anecdotal evidence and samples of size one are not great ways to draw conclusions. So thanks for the formal TUV reliability study that tends to confirm what many of us are finding.

For a feature-laden luxury car to be near the top of any reliability study is truly outstanding.

Jim X


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

Mine passed 120,000 miles last week during a 3 hour 80 MPH turnpike drive... no issues at present. 2004 V8 with original batteries. I've replaced the infotainment and transmission under warranty. Then 1 fuel pump, water pump, two window regulators and 2 suspension bushings on my dime. Knocking on wood. Oh, I have ceramic nearly dustless brakes and Bentley 19" wheels.


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## Cats_Eye (Jul 14, 2012)

So.. this seems like a fitting question for this thread. Who has the highest mileage Phaeton around and how much work have you done on it? (I'd love to know if anyone has beat 150 mi, looking at a a P with 150 mi on it.)

Also I recently read a story about the BMW Z1 Roadster think that could be the Phaeton in 10 years? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIzTYOA7nJ8 (design and promo video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GDyl7ESXSJw (report on 25 anniversary)





> PS: I should have a fairly trouble-free fleet, if this study is to believed


 Fleet? 

-K


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

> > PS: I should have a fairly trouble-free fleet, if this study is to believed
> 
> 
> Fleet?


I meant the two VW's in our family - enough to be called a fleet? ;-) The EOS was ranked pretty high, too - although roof leaks etc. are pretty common. It should be noted that the TÜV statistics only include "major" defects found during the annual inspection/MOT check. Small annoyances do not count.

Jouko


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

There is a piece on MSN.com today called "*12 Cars That Will Go 200,000 Miles — or More*"

The list is interesting:
-Honda Accord
-Toyota Camry
-Volvo C30
-Ford F-150
-Honda CR-V
-Volkswagen Passat
-Toyota Yaris
-Subaru Forester
-GMC Sierra HD
-Toyota Sienna
-Ford Mustang
-Honda Civic

Note the presence of the Volkswagen Passat.

If they expect a Passat to last "200,000 miles or more", what does that say about the Phaeton?

It is good to have it reaffirmed that my now 110,000 mile *First Love* is only about mid-life at this point...

Victor


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

There is no doubt in my mind that a Phaeton will reach 200k. Having said that, any car free of major design flaws will drive 200k miles with proper maintenance. I'll let you define "proper". It's not as if our chassis will rust away or our transmission will spontaneously drop out of the car. The design and craftsmanship are solid.

I'm sure several of us owned high mileage cars. A few of mine were VW and easily reached 200k. We know when it's time to say goodbye. At 135k on my 4.2L, I'd be a fool to say goodbye. I rarely get a bump shift from 2 to 1 in sport mode only, my A pillar tweeter distorts when I listen to Berlioz, and my front bumper has a few tiny cracks. Other than that, all is well. Better than well. I have the privilege of driving a car that I dreamt of for years. Some people buy vacation homes or fly to wonderful destinations. I bought a Phaeton. It will be with me beyond 200k.

If for some reason the transmission drops out, the engine throws a rod , AND the 2004 suspension fails, I'll modify the cabin for camping comfort and tow the Phaeton to a secluded acreage in the Minnesota outback. How many tents have you seen with wood trim and a 12 speaker sound system? I'll fix the tweeter.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It all depends, of course, on how much you're willing to spend on maintenance. My brother's Honda CRX made it to 250k with hardly anything other than routine maintenance, just a new clutch at some point. On the other hand, I have no doubt my Phaeton can make it to 200k, but by then I expect maintenance costs to have been well over $30k on top of routine things, and probably much more than that. Is it worth it? Probably. It means you get to drive a premium vehicle for 15 years for ~60kish (or less with a good warranty!).


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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

I just sold a 2001 Jetta I had from new, with 200000 miles and the original clutch


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> the original clutch


Did you learn to drive on non-synchromesh cars? You must have amazingly sensitive foot control!

Chris


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## DmcL (Sep 30, 2012)

Victor R said:


> There is a piece on MSN.com today called "*12 Cars That Will Go 200,000 Miles — or More*"
> 
> The list is interesting:
> -Honda Accord
> ...


what? no BMW E30's? my E30 325i is around 146k and going 100% mechanically.. has a rear wheel bearing that is starting to groan little and the wiper motor is starting to show its age along with the blower motor but mechanicals are going strong and i have had the car for about 5 years now (116k when i bought it) and have ragged on the car since day 1 of me getting it. did do an auto to manual conversion on it but the manual box has similar milage to the rest of the car/engine. ill be turbocharging it with a GT3582 soon also.. 24 year old, 146k mile car soon to be boosted.. should still be going strong and pushing 300-400hp at 200k miles unless i sell/crash it before then lol

the E30 does have the added benefit of having already hit rock bottom depreciation wise and is on the up again so longer i keep it clean and fighting fit then the more it will be worth when/if i sell up.

my 04 3.2 V6 phaeton does kind of scare me longetivity/repair cost wise though.. loads of computers and electrics, loads of sensors, electric throttle, air suspension, etc, etc, etc. bought it with a transmission issue which is being fixed by the dealer i bought it off (new torque converter needed, locking ring wasnt working) and its got a 1 year warranty from date of purchase but the finance agreement is over 2 years. hoping the second year wont kill me with something major going.. shes got 86k miles at present and has a decent history (still waiting for reciepts/invoices/etc though). think i may drive it hard before the warranty is up and hopefully any weak links in the chain will make themselves known and can be sorted under warranty lol

one thing i do have in my favour with the phaeton is that im not shy to working on cars myself both on the mechanicals and a bit of tinkering with electronics/ECU tuning (granted on 20+ year old BMW ECU's but still) and i do intend on buying VCDS/vag-com.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

A new article *here*. As of January 2013, the average age of cars on the road in the US is 11.4 years. Quality is the main reason touted for this. 

This continues to be great news for all of us owners and should be encouraging for all of those still considering entering into their first NAR Phaeton experience. 

We will never see the like of the Phaeton again, at least not at a price affordable to the "Volk". 

Victor


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Crumbling plastics. 

It is a concern, I think.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Paximus said:


> Did you learn to drive on non-synchromesh cars? You must have amazingly sensitive foot control!
> 
> Chris


 

My '03 GTi has the original clutch at 211,000+ miles (and just about everything else until the rebuild in progress) and it is fine. I have no intentions of replacing it until it fails. I drive the car spiritedly at times as well..


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

> Crumbling plastics.
> 
> It is a concern, I think.


 Agreed, but much more likely to happen in the heat (and sun) of Florida. If the cars are garaged, this should be not nearly as problematic. My family's "stable" of cars includes a 1951 DeSoto and a 1972 Mustang, belonging to one of my boys, respectively (though I have them titled and insured in my wife's name for now). The plastics in both of those are still in relatively decent shape. 

Victor


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*I. Bumper Cover* 
My front bumper cracked underneath the passenger-side headlamp sometime around 2008, and on the driver's side around 2010. In 2011, a small triangle crumpled off of it at nearly zero force when I was playing with a balky headlight spray nozzle. 

In 2013, a small object hit the left of my front bumper at slow speed and a portion of the bumper cover exploded, like glass, into hundreds of splinters. The attachment points failed on some parts such as a foglight and a side marker which were left dangling, intact from their cables. Like a crater, cracks extended in all directions. 

The technician who repaired my car said this has been happening to BMWs and Mercedes from the same era, but that he had never seen a case as bad as my Phaeton. He said the 80% of my bumper cover which looked intact after the incident basically crumbled in his hands as he removed it. 

The bumper cover was surprisingly cheap to get new from VW and my car now looks like new, but I believe if were to have the small incident again with the new cover, or basically with any other car, *nothing would happen and I would not even notice it*, as the foreign object would just bounce off of the cover. 

*II. Stoplight gaskets* 
About a month ago, as the trunk lid was raising, a piece of plastic fell off of the driver's side rear stoplight that's mounted on the trunk lid. Last weekend, the same thing happened on the passenger side trunk lid stoplight. *Those were black plastic pieces that are invisible from the outside of the car and that interface with the rubber gasket that surrounds the trunk when the lid closes*. The fallen plastics feels mush and crumble. 

*III. Stoplight lenses* 
The two trunk lid stop light *lenses* are now "crazing". 


My car has always lived in fully shaded, reserved spots in multi-level parking garages both at home and at work. It has 54,000 miles. Its sun exposure is limited to those times when we have used it; on average, twice a week. 


The car was built in Nov or Dec 2003 (I forget) and sold in June 2004. It may very well have endured a full-six months of exposure in Chicago before sold. It was then owned by someone else for 18 months before I bought it in January '06 with 17,000 miles and we drove it to Miami. 

Granted, the sun of Miami is harsh.


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## entwisi (Feb 19, 2013)

One thing that seems to have been missed is that mechanical objects tend to work better if they are used regularly. I drive ~ 30K miles PA with my commute. over the last 15 years I've had( all bought s/h and only the Phaeton was more than 5k GBP). and yes, I've pretty much driven to the moon and back! 

Alfa 155 2.0 twin spark ( converted to LPG)- taken to 175K miles 
Saab 9000 2.0 ( also LPG'd) taken to 180K ( sold by me in 2005, car still in daily use ) 
Volvo V70 T5 ( Yep, you guessed, LPG!) sold at 239K, still in daily use 
Audi A8 ( theme here? ;o) LPG!!! ) sold at 150K due to chocolate gearbox ( still in use though) 
Honda Accord 2.2 DIESEL!!!! written off in Feb this year on the motorway in a 6 car pile up, still on original clutch at 213K miles 
My P, bought at 71K end of feb, already at 84K and climbing fast. 

I've never had to buy an exhaust, the Volvo blew a water pump, the saab had one intermittent electrical fault. other than that they have all been ultra reliable... I'm not even that religious about servicing... at one point the Volvo had done 25K on the same oil.. The A8 blew its gearbox twice and they are a known weak spot so that was sold on after just over a year rather than the 4 I normally keep a car for. 


I think part of the reason they have generally been so reliable is that when they start up they rarely do less than 40 miles so they get properly warmed up, I don't hammer them till they are(but after that its fair game), the roads in the UK are generally OK and I spend most of my time on motorways rather than bouncing over speed humps etc. in other words pretty much perfect conditions for a car. On my morning commute of 54 miles I even played a game to see how few gear changes i could do in the Honda, my average over 3 months was 15, my record, 9. 

Ian


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Similar experience here. My V10 had a low mileage when I got it - but it's doing a lot more now (not least because the V6 has spent half the year with VW dealers replacing doors and now failing to fix auxiliarly heater and air con faults... a story of woe will emerge in due course...). And I'll probably struggle to put my my finger on this exactly.. but somehow it just feels much better and more responsive now it almost never goes cold. 

I ran a 2.5 V6 petrol Mondeo from new for 12 years and 160k miles. A few suspension rubbers, brake discs, air con compresor and an exhaust in all that time. Sold it with its original battery! 

Good to hear again from You Ian... I was worried you'd sold your P!!


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## entwisi (Feb 19, 2013)

nah, was just on my jollies for 2.5 weeks. I've wanted to write the above for a while but didn't fancy doing it all on a phone/tablet so waited till I was back in the office with my extra fancy expensive keyboard... ;o)


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's a good point about regular use. Mine gets used every day, but usually only over short distances, which I suspect is one of the reasons the transmission is currently being replaced. My batteries lasted a relatively long time, but lots of other things have failed (the warranty payout is now about $30k).


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Yes, there is a general consensus that Phaeton suffers, probably more that most cars, when turned off and on in very short cycles.

This is why since 2010 we essentially use it only if our trip requires getting on highways around here. Generally, we use it for trips that are about 40 minutes each way, 98% highway, and generally at a steady 110-125 KPH, which is the non-congestion standard speed around here.

I can report that year 2012 was probably the best year for our Phaeton –all systems stable, nothing failed, ran like a champ. 2013 is also being good, save for the crumbling plastics incidents.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Interesting information from the 2013 SEMA show in Las Vegas last week. Experian Automotive presented new data on people keeping their cars longer but with a new twist: Data was presented for vehicle brands.

See the following table. It refers to length of time people keep cars they bought as new.



In addition to looking at overall length of ownership, the brands noted are most illuminating.

Perhaps what strikes me the most here, though, is the absence of Volkswagen AG vehicles on this list. It can't be because of sales - even brands with very low sales are listed.

Thoughts?

Victor


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

I think what we need is someone who drives a lot and take the Phaeton to 1,000,000 miles mark!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Who knew that Chrysler/Dodge vehicles even LASTED for 80 months??


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> Who knew that Chrysler/Dodge vehicles even LASTED for 80 months??


There was a Mercedes technology infusion...a whole load of difference compared to like Dodge Aries... remember those?

The 300 and related sisters were basically Mercedes W210 E class chassis and transmission.

The Dodge Sprinter were 100% Mercedes Sprinter... now back to Mercedes.


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## seawind3000 (Sep 17, 2010)

I had a 92 Dodge Caravan with 496,000KM (308,200 Miles) and the speedo stopped working for a year before I sold it.

Mike


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## sjd9346 (Apr 21, 2004)

My 2006 W12 only has about 65,000 miles on it. I recently decided to buy an extended warranty while I still could. My car is costing me (or my warranty company), consistently, about $10,000 a year in maintenance costs. It is disappointing to me that VW has made a car that has such a delicate suspension system that it requires seemingly constant repair. There are other simple things, that in my opinion, should simply not break with such limited mileage/years - right now, I have the front right window motor, windshield wiper motor and a new software for the nav system on order for the latest series of repairs (about $2,500 or so). When it runs, it is great, but I am on a first name basis with half a dozen service reps at the dealer, as well as the mechanic that always works on my car. It is almost comical. I definitely will not be keeping the car after the warranty expires. I had virtually the same experience with my 2005 V8 in terms of costs - about $8,000 a year. All of my service has been done at the dealer and every time something is broken, or it needs regular maintenance , it handled promptly at the dealer so although it is getting good care, the problems simply appear to me to be never-ending. I can't lie - overall, this has taken away from my ownership experience. VW really needs to examine their quality control measures. I realize others may not have had this experience, but with my two Phaetons, this has been the case. Truly a love/hate relationship.

Steve


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Could it simply be that dealer costs are high for work on luxury cars? My VW dealer charges £120 per hour ($192) for work on Phaetons, although I suspect that their work on Polos is charged out lower. This is illogical, but shows market forces in action.


Regarding Chrysler, my Austrian-built Jeep Commander with Mercedes influence has needed these parts lately, somewhat prematurely in my opinion:
-- JML alloys which corroded at 2 years
-- water pump (a Chrysler Corp part) at 38k miles
-- rear differential (a Chrysler Corp part) at 40k miles
-- pair of new front hubs (also Chrysler Corp) at 42k miles
-- a few plastic parts which broke off
-- non-working headrest
-- button labels which wore off


The Phaeton has cost £2700 ($4300) per year in servicing, maintenance and repairs (including the paid service contract to 2015 and recent new tyres, disks & pads), and 23 pence (37cents) per mile for fuel.

The Jeep has cost £1250 ($2000) per year plus 47 pence (75 cents) per mile fuel cost. However, for the Jeep I ruthlessly use my local Indy garage, with labour at £60 per hour, and I source the parts at best cost. I think this halves the outgoings compared with using the dealer.

That is proportionate, for the list prices at new were £37k for the Jeep and £74k for the P. Both vehicles are heavy, comfortable, powerful, have a stiff, secure-feeling carrosserie and each have their road strengths, but naturally the P brings on the 'Phaeton grin' when you sink into it and life's problems are left the other side of the door! The Jeep brings on thoughts of its 190-mile range, and where the next fuel stop will be... however, there's no fear of potholes or driving through rutted fields.

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

I'll need to dig out costs on my V6... but until this summer when it consumed just about all at the same time its auxiliary heater, DPF differential pressure sensor, air con condenser and inlet manifold swirl flaps... it had only had routine servicing... and I think only three of those... and those were all <£200. I'll need to add up this Summer's misery to get a true picture (don't really want to... it will depress me), but I still have a feeling that ownership has been low cost. Oh.. and I've just bought my second set of summer tyres (5) to go on next March - about £800.

Regards

Mike


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I have to agree with Steve. Even allowing for higher maintenance costs on a luxury car, there's a lot that has broken on mine that I wouldn't expect to break at relatively low mileage, window motor, ABS controller, suspension strut, etc. What's the point of having such a reliable engine if everything else breaks and costs just as much to replace?


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

I'll probably jinx myself with this post but I've been more than pleased with the reliability of both my Phaetons. 

I bought my W12 at just under 70k miles and I'm now at 106k miles. I've spent less than $3,000.00 which includes a window regulator,front control arm bushings, new tires,4 engine oil changes, and 2 transmission fluid changes with a filter included once. All but the window regulator($400.00) is scheduled maintenance.

We've had the V8 exactly a year now with only an engine oil change and new tires. I did change the control arm bushings as I was replacing the W12 bushings and thought it'd be a good time to also do this to the V8 while it was fresh on my mind.It's just under 80k miles now and I'm prepared to install a timing belt kit and do an engine and transmission oil change. I'll do all this myself and expect it to cost approx $1200.00

Cantrell


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

PanEuropean said:


> Prior to leaving for Australia last Friday, I dropped my Phaeton off at the local VW dealer for some long overdue service...
> 
> I'm going to guess that the repair bill for all the above stuff, plus any other problems that the technician might find while inspecting the car, will be between $3,000 and $5,000.


Just to follow up and close out the above comment (dating from about 5 months ago), the total cost of getting all the little problems fixed was $8,000. But, my extended warranty (which only had a few months left to run) covered all but $2,000 of the bill. Most of the expenses were for parts: 5 new tire pressure sensors to replace the ones that time-expired, a couple of new proximity sensors for the rear park distance control, etc.

I just drove the car across Canada, from Vancouver Island to Toronto, and it performed very well, except for a sudden and unexpected failure of one of the electric fuel pumps in the fuel tank (I'll create a stand-alone post about that story). But, so far, my annual repair costs seem to be averaging about $2,000 a year, which is not bad for a 10 year old car that originally had a 6 figure price tag. I am not including normal ongoing maintenance tasks (oil changes, etc.) in that figure, because those expenses would apply to any car, new or old, basic or luxury.

Michael


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

We have paid very little in repairs for our Phaeton: we always had original warranty (CPO) from 2006-2010 and then extended until later this year.

Extended, which I bought in 2009, only paid for itself last year, when failure of a small piece (an actuator or solenoid, I believe) deep inside the a/c system resulted in major assembly/disassembly work. 

That was the same year, I believe, that a bunch of front suspension parts got replaced (but not any components of the air suspension), and this was also expensive and also paid by warranty. This, I think, could be considered a design defect: the W12 is too heavy for the front suspension plus with the holes and uneven pavement joints that are the U.S. standard and not as common in Germany. One wonders, how are the Bentleys holding up?

The other things that failed on Phaeton, such as some of the soft-touch surfaces and the famous crumbling front bumper, were probably the result of VW experimenting with materials that ultimately did not stand the test of time. Replacing a couple of interior buttons or plastic pieces and the front bumper cover will set you back less than $2,000. Is this OK on a 10-year old behemoth? Depends on your perspective. I know VW gave up completely on soft-touch plastics on later Touaregs; I wonder what happened to soft-touch plastics on later-generation Phaetons?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> some of the soft-touch surfaces


Which surfaces are you referring to? I would be interested in checking out a new Phaeton to compare the parts and see if they have been updated.

Chris


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Coating on big shell directly underneath steering wheel. Probably from someone using a cleaning agent on it at some point.

Coating on (lighted) pushbutton on glovebox. Probably from having sunscreen on finger a couple of times.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The soft-touch, rubbery finish on the overhead buttons was changed. Mine has the new part fitted and the button finish feels almost like fabric.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Update.

Most recent numbers for age of US cars show 11.4 years. See *here*. New statistics will be coming out in June, but, according to the link, it appears that the rising age has reached a plateau, where is it expected to stay but then rise again, reaching an average of 11.7 years by 2019.

I thought this was significant as the edge of NAR Phaetons, MY 2004, has now reached this average age mark.

Here is a graphic demonstrating average age of US vehicles over the last twenty years which tells the story rather dramatically:



While this, in of itself, is interesting, the comparison to average age of vehicles in Europe is also fascinating:



Note that the average age in the EU is where the US was nearly 20 years ago. It appears that Europeans turn their cars over much more often than we do here. Counterintuitive, at least to me, given America's love of the automobile. Perhaps this has to do with more stringent inspection/licensing standards? Our "across the pond" colleagues do have the advantage over us in that they continue to be able to purchase new ROW Phaetons...

In any event, back to NAR Phaetons. Having their life at the average, from my perspective, is good, as they are* only* at the average. Recently, there has been a rash of long-term forum members bailing on the Phaeton. Hopefully, for those of us remaining stalwarts and for those just now entering the Phaeton world, these data project to say there will be many more years of savoring the ownership experience left.

Victor


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Another reason for the disparity between Europe and the US might be the licence plates. I don't know about mainland Europe, but in the UK you can tell how old a car is by the licence plate. This leads to a keeping-up-with-the-jones's mentality where people change their car so it can be seen that they're driving a new one. The only other relevant, subjective observation I have is that Americans appear to be much more conservative in their tastes, and much less accepting of change. Perhaps this is a relatively recent phenomenon?? It certainly was a surprise to me, and contrary to what I believed before I came here. Cell phones are good example!


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> It certainly was a surprise to me, and contrary to what I believed before I came here. Cell phones are good example!


you mean you and your colleagues/acquaintances don't change your smart phone every 11 months (recent average for my company's mobile phone handsets....)

Complete mystery to me why people do this. I going to have my Blackberry prised out of my fingers next week by my head of IT and an iPhone substituted... Apple has garnered a lot of praise for design etc... but the sleek bling is not compatible with me or my Phaeton sensibilities. (Blackberries are a bit naff too... but at least I've been them for 10 years and only changed model when they've broken - every three years or so).


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Many Phaeton owners still use an ancient-spec Nokia (by definition - it's screwed down in the boot!).

Of course, it has a spectacular radio range for voice calls, especially on the old-style lower-frequency Vodafone network.

Chris


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

Mine was pretty happy from 80,000 -120,000 miles but hitting 140,000 has been expensive.
Fuel Pump (left side)
N-80 Canister purge valve
Low beam headlamp (left side)
Front suspension drop links
Starter battery

Trunk wiring harness (temp fix)
Brakes/rotors (needed for inspection in April)
4 Summer tires needed in April

Water pump and timing belts (in another 20k miles)


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Given recent discussions on the forum, I thought it would be worth updating this thread.

*Most recent data* now demonstrate an average age of 11.6 years for US automobiles on the road. Looking at NAR Phaeton production spanning 2004 - 2006 model years, that means our cars are now just passing the average life for cars on the road.

I would have to believe that the Phaeton, properly maintained, will go *much* longer than average...

Victor


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks, Victor,

These regular updates of yours make good reading, especially comparing them over the years.

Chris


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