# Is this the way plugs look after 12000 miles in TT RS?



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

I am not sure if these look good or bad or neither so I thought i would ask everyone here.
Is this normal wear for plugs after 12000 miles? Still trying to figure out the misfire.


----------



## i0n (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks like:


----------



## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

I'll take the same pics of mine and post when I get home tomorrow. I pulled mine at about 12k when I put the NGKs in.


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

thanks, did they look like these?


----------



## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

Mine did....
Looked like 50,000 mile old carbon plugs.
They really only have a 20K lifetime in an oem motor.
Just got some fresh stockers to put back in..


----------



## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Quisp said:


> thanks, did they look like these?


From memory, I think yours look way more sooty than mine. Pics will tell the story though.


----------



## j-dub (Oct 22, 2000)

Not the best quality but this guy posted a new vs. old spark plug here:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/audi/275027-tt-rs-project-750hp.html


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Would you say that these plugs would cause a misfire? Form what i have read on the net it seems like they would and that was the problem I was having. The new problem is the bill i got when i picked up the car. Got charged for aa lot of labor trying to figure out the problems but since audi didnt find it or didnt think it was a problem I got the bill but that is going to change


----------



## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

The carbon deposits looks quite a bit more than what I have seen on any of my cars (2.0T FSI, 2.8/3.2 VRs, 3.2 S54 etc). This can most def be one of the reasons for the misfire. More importantly, why are they getting this way so soon? A chip tuner like UM or APR who have looked at the factory tune may be able to comment on the factory air/fuel tune to throw some light.

Are these Iridium plugs? They usually have a shorter life I think.

If all is well with the motor (programming, injectors etc) then I would think that plugs are a 10K maintenance item on the TTRS motor. Not unusual for an a highly tuned forced induction motor - this one just happens to be factory tuned which makes it somewhat unacceptable. Aftermarket FI tunes usually run rich to safeguard the motor while the factory leaves enough room (usually) to be conservative. What is still food for thought is why others with this mileage are not having similar issues? Driving style maybe? Quality of fuel?

Side note- I don't think Audi should charge you for this as you are still under warranty. And they need to be smart enough to know that sometimes problems take recurrance enough times to trigger a code.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

On a 2.0L TSI engine, APR Stage 2 with one step colder plugs, I haven't seen any actual carbon deposits beyond a black color with 2x the mileage on the plugs. The 2.0TSI has a very similar design in terms of injectors, coils, etc than the 2.5 TFSI 

Need someone with more direct experience with plugs in the TT-RS, but those plugs don't look 'normal' to me. 

Before the plug change you hadn't had a lot of idle time? If you had a few cold starts and didn't get the engine up to temp prior to pulling the plugs, you could have some deposits that wouldn't be there in regular circumstances. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks for all the input!
The worst part of all was that they charged me $1277. For that I got a fuel system cleaning, 5 plugs and"piece of mind".
When i dropped the car i gave the advisor a list of problems i was having with a description of how to duplicate each one. I also left a dvd with recordings of wach problem and a data log showing misfires in three cylinders.
The car was there for 15 days. During that time I was going to have the valves cleaned but that would have been $1300 so instead they pulled the cover to look at them and took some pics, They looked good. Suggested a fuel system cleaning which i agreed to and also asked them to check the coils and change the plugs. This was all done with the goal of fixing the misfire and other issues all of which happen while driving the car.
Finally i go pick up the car and I am presented with a bill for $1277.57. I was shocked but wanted to get the car and so I paid the bill and asked what i got for that money. plugs, cleaning and piece of mind that the car should run great and there wont be any problems with misfires. I left so i could sort this out and not have a fit in the dealership. 
I looked at the bill when i got home and the description of the proiblem stated it was during idle and i thought it sounds like a misfire. That was not what i had written. I had made sure to print out a list of the symptoms and when they occured so it would be easy to duplicates them. I am guessing they were looking for something that was not there and that is why nothing was done other than what i reuqested. The problems are all when driving the car so it woould need to be driven in order to duplicate them and it wasnt.The car had been driven 2 miles and that was "to verify repairs". 
Basically the car sat for two weeks exceot for what i asked them to do. I had thought they were diagnosing it also but since it was written up wrong they never did.
I was billed for $950 in labor(with no breakdown of time spent doing what)and $279 in parts.
As a bonus, the misfires are still there, same counts just different cyclinders which leads me to vbelieve that the coils were moved to different cylinders. The plugs that were removed are the ons above which we all agree do not look good. I am going to do some ata logging in a couple hours to seeif anything else is different or the same.
Needless to say I am pissed. 15 days and almost $1300 later I had to pay to have problems diagnosed which should hav been covered under the warranty(and will be pursuing that.)
.
Even though the misfires are there in print on 3 cylinders it was not enough to cause a light or code and therefore it i snt warranty(that will be argued heavily) 5 misfires in one cylinder will cause a code. I have 3 misfires in one cylinder, 2 in another, and one in a third cylinder. I may be worng but I think that when you have misfires in 60% of the cylinders it will have some impact on the car's performance. 
Wouldnt it?
The even better part was that this was all done at the recomendation of AUdi US after i contacted them 3 weeks ago so they were aware of the problems and set up the service visit through the dealer service manager
I should not have paid the bill but at the time an argument with the service advisor would have not been a good thing. I wanted to be calm and have information rather than my hunches to support wehat i had to say. Flying off the handle usually gets you nowhere. I know i dont have that great a chance of getting my money back but yoiu never know and i am sure oing to try,


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Replace the coils yourself. Order new coils (qty 5) for a TT-RS from ECS and install yourself. Very easy, DiY type project.


----------



## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

Quisp said:


> Thanks for all the input!
> The worst part of all was that they charged me $1277. For that I got a fuel system cleaning, 5 plugs and"piece of mind".
> When i dropped the car i gave the advisor a list of problems i was having with a description of how to duplicate each one. I also left a dvd with recordings of wach problem and a data log showing misfires in three cylinders.
> The car was there for 15 days. During that time I was going to have the valves cleaned but that would have been $1300 so instead they pulled the cover to look at them and took some pics, They looked good. Suggested a fuel system cleaning which i agreed to and also asked them to check the coils and change the plugs. This was all done with the goal of fixing the misfire and other issues all of which happen while driving the car.
> ...


Gosh I am trying to figure out why you are having so many issues with your car. 

Fuel system flush? New coils? Valve cleaning? Multiple visits to Audi taking apart your car for Timing chain noise which is normal for the car. 

This is all for a stock car with only 12k miles, correct?


----------



## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Looks like a Stasis tune based on sig. Maybe it runs rich?

Here are mine after about 12-13K...


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Had Stasis on it for about 6000 miles total on and off, has been stock for about 6 weeks now.


"Fuel system flush? New coils? Valve cleaning? Multiple visits to Audi taking apart your car for Timing chain noise which is normal for the car. "


Have misfires and reduced power. Not getting any helo from audi service trying to diagnose the prblems because they wont do anything wihtout a light or code.
To me that timing chain noise is not normal. Did not do it when i got the car, If it did make that noise I would when i went to buy it I would be driving a mercedes.
If it was normal then Audi would not try to fix it. When it comes time to sell the car(which may be sooner thn i thought) i am going to hve a hard time convincing someone that is normal. That noise is going to lower the resale price. 
All that i wnt is the car that i bought,


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Going back to those plugs... Did you start the car maybe to move it a short distance and not let it get fully up to temp before shutting it down again to change the plugs? 

Plugs should not really be read if there is any idle time on them. Drag racers will actually shut the engine off with the car still moving after a full throttle run so that the color of the plug is from WOT, not idling... 

These cars run very rich on a cold start. There is a second injection event only on cold starts to help get the first cat up to operating temp faster and reduce emissions. This is why the TT-RS has such a distinctive and even rough sounding cold start. 

If you started the car cold, let it run a short time, then shut it down to change the plugs, you could easily have extra carbon on the insulators. That carbon would normally be burnt off once the engine warms up. 

Have you logged the car with VAGCOM yet? You need to get a hold of a VAGCOM cable and log the car. Post up the logs and there are people on this forum that can take a look to see if anything looks out of sorts. 

I might go ahead and replace the coils, since a set isn't expensive and you can change them easily. Besides that, don't spend any more money until you can log the car and have the log data analyzed. Anything else is just guessing at this point. 



Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

The plugs were changed at the dealer so i am unsure about those questions.

This is not about the timing chain noise that is just an other nuisance, this is about the car running sluggish, hesitation and reduced power with jerky acceleration.

I have been logging, that is how i found the misfires in 3 cyclinders which is on eo fthe reasons the car was in the shop. There are misfries in 3 of 5 cylinders but not enough to throw a code or light total of 6 misfires but you need 5 in one cylinder to get a code.

I took the log iinto the dealer to show them but that didnt help.
Will probably change the coils since the plugs and vavles are good. The car has been running rich for a while. The oil smells stronglyof gas and when on the dyno it puts out a lot of fumes and some uss of smoke at close to red line.
I was told by the dealer that these cars run rich to protect the engine.
My timing numbers that i logged are kind of crazy but i was told the ecy controls that and there is no way to adjst them. 
I am getting frustrated because i am not getting alot of help from audi because there are no codes so to them that eans no problem. There are a lot of things that can be wrong without a code but it is tough to convice them.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Post up your logs, including not just the misfire data but also timing, manifold pressure, throttle position, etc

(I should have known that you have been logging based on the misfire discussion, but I haven't seen full logs posted.)


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

hightech,
I can log 12 values at once so if i log anything cylinder related that is 5, then the timing retardation is another 5, engine speed(rpm) and manifold pressure. Would that help or is there a better buch to log. I wish i knew what all the values meant but unfortunately I am just learning. I did a timing log and the values were quite ...confusing and all over the place.










Going out to day to do some more. I can log whatever you suggest and appreciate your help!


----------



## mageus (Sep 1, 2004)

Now all-yall's got me scared. 30K miles and some track time. Gonna check me plugs.

Black Beautty, which plugs are you running? What have you gapped them?


----------



## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

mageus said:


> Now all-yall's got me scared. 30K miles and some track time. Gonna check me plugs.
> 
> Black Beautty, which plugs are you running? What have you gapped them?


He's running the ngks iridium tip...Same ones that I'm running. You don't gap iridium tip.

EDIT: I posted quickly and should have stated my response better. I didn't gap my plugs but iridium tips can be gapped. One just needs to be carful not to damage the plug. My tuner, however, didn't think it was necessary on my car.


----------



## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

J662 said:


> He's running the ngks iridium tip...Same ones that I'm running. You don't gap iridium tip.


Don't know who told you that last part, but yes you can, and should, depending on modifications and tune. You don't use a normal gap disk as that has a tendency to bust the tips, you use this:



















You should NEVER run out of the box gaps without verifying measurement and adjusting accordingly.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqpregap.asp

Q: Do I need to set the "gap" when installing a new set of plugs?

A: Maybe. A spark plug part number might fit hundreds of different engines from many different manufacturers. Although the NGK factory will set the gap to a pre-selected setting, this may not be the right gap for your particular engine. The incorrect plug gap for your engine can contribute to a high rate of misfires, loss of power, plug fouling, poor fuel economy, and accelerated plug wear. It is always best to check the gap against the manufacturer's specifications. If adjusting the gap on fine wire or precious metal plugs such as platinum or iridium be very careful not to apply any pressure or prying force to the fine wire center electrode or insulator as they can be damaged. The gap should be adjusted by only moving the ground electrode. 

Another consideration that should be taken into account is the extent of any modifications that you may have made to the engine. As an example, when you raise compression or add forced induction (a turbo system, nitrous or supercharger kit) you must reduce the gap (about .004" for every 50 hp you add). However, when you add a high power ignition system (such as those offered by MSD, Crane, Nology) you can open the gap from .002-.005".

If you have any questions, please contact the NGK Sparkplugs Tech Staff:
Tech Support - Click here

The manufacturer of your vehicle, the company that produced the aftermarket products you've used and/or your mechanic are all additional sources of gapping information if you've modified your vehicle.


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Thats good to know(Why do companies make so many things that require these specialized tools that can only be used for the one purpose. Iridium Spark plug gapper, ignition coil puller, wiindshield wiper puller tool, ass painer tool). 
Unfortunately I went with the factory plugs and they did the install sio I do not know if they checked the gaps.


----------



## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

mageus said:


> Now all-yall's got me scared. 30K miles and some track time. Gonna check me plugs.
> 
> Black Beautty, which plugs are you running? What have you gapped them?


As J662 said, running the NGK racing plugs. I gapped them to 24. You just need to be careful so you don't damage the tip.


----------



## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

Dan.S said:


> Don't know who told you that last part, but yes you can, and should, depending on modifications and tune. You don't use a normal gap disk as that has a tendency to bust the tips, you use this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Dan, for more thorough info. I should have stated my post better because while I didn't gap mine one can obviously gap iridium tip as you and Beautty pointed out.


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

OK, I have another theory for whats going on with my car. Could it be Cam related? Misfires, reduced power, timing logs are strange, really loud noises from top of engine like lifters but louder , cam phase numbers are high. Thiinking cam adjustmentvalve or cam position sensor.
Any thoughts on this would be helpful


----------



## mageus (Sep 1, 2004)

Dan.S said:


> You don't use a normal gap disk as that has a tendency to bust the tips, you use this:


So, how much is that tool?


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

The 2.5 is an inline engine but it still has bank one and bank two. Does anyone know whcih cylinder are consider bank one and which are bank two? The misfires happen in three cylinders and I was looking for something that works with the engine and would affect 3 cylinders at a time and it looks like the camshft does that. As i understand it that would give misfires, timing numbers would be off, reduced performance, engine running lean or rich and the plugs getting deposits.
Any thoughts on this?


----------



## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

Quisp said:


> The 2.5 is an inline engine but it still has bank one and bank two. Does anyone know whcih cylinder are consider bank one and which are bank two?


I don't think it has 2 banks as it is an inline 5 and not a VR5 that VW had in Europe. That being said, based on a VR configuration, I would guess 1, 3 and 5 are one bank and 2, 4 the other. I am considering the serpentine belt side to be the front and counting based on a VR configuration.

Firing order of TTRS 5 cyl: 1-2-4-5-3


----------



## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

mageus said:


> So, how much is that tool?


That's assuming you can find them for sale.... $20-$80. They weren't tha common a while ago. Here is a current link:

$26.00

https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...Z69IOnd2QWVioAQ&ved=0CHMQ8wIwBQ#hsec:overview


----------



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

In VCDS some measuring valuse are labeled bank 1 and bank 2 even though it is inline. My thinking is that when the cam adjustment is out of whack(for whatever reason) it usually affects all the cylinders in one of the banks(from what i have read). I have misfires in three of the cylinders and if those three cylinders are in the same bank then this could possibly be a reason.
I am trying to find something that can tie the 3 cylinders together to one source which could be causing the misfires. Something the 3 cylinders have in commonwith each other but not the other two which dont misfire. This is the only thing i have come up with so far.


----------

