# Do you believe ???



## cmosentine (Jun 3, 2008)

So, do you believe in the 10K miles oil change interval for the 2.0T engine (or the 2.5 na for that matter)? Even with the new synthetics required by VW (502/505) I have a hard time believing they can go that long.
Furthermore, my APR dealer specifically suggested dropping it down to 5K. This dealer is locally known for their German car expertise.


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (cmosentine)*

What place does belief hold when you have a UOA?
Do you believe that every European automotive manufacturer has no clue about the lubrication requirements of their motors? (standard Euro drain interval = 16K kms)
A quality 502 00 oil is well within it's lifespan at 10K miles, provided the motor is in a good state of tune and the oil level is maintained. 
We'll soon hear some empirical evidence to support my statement.


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## cmosentine (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (franz131)*

What I believe is that environmental concerns (i use the term loosely) CAN override engineering data. And so CAN marketing for that matter. I am a cynical SOB.
As for empirical data, that would be great. Perhaps someone has oil analyses at regular intervals throughout the recommended interval.


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (cmosentine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cmosentine* »_As for empirical data, that would be great. Perhaps someone has oil analyses at regular intervals throughout the recommended interval.









Like EVERYONE on the TDi club forum.
Nothing wrong with cynical, just stay open to the facts.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (cmosentine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cmosentine* »_What I believe is that environmental concerns (i use the term loosely) CAN override engineering data. And so CAN marketing for that matter. I am a cynical SOB.
As for empirical data, that would be great. Perhaps someone has oil analyses at regular intervals throughout the recommended interval.









You are right that marketing is a huge factor. Porsche now recommends 20k intervals and they love to talk about how Porsches are so low maint. Talking to numerous service writers and techs, they all say go with 10k to 12k. The 20k is based on marketing and the UOA's I have seen don't support 20k.
Also another factor for new VW's is the shorter warranty and free maintenance program. There is obviously a built in incentive there for longer OCIs. 
My advice is to use the manufacturers recommendations as a guide and use UOAs to get your perfect OCI. These motors are fuel diluters and some are oil consumers. That along with the cam follower wear issue should be cause to look extra close at the type of oil you are using and UOAs. 
You can pull a sample through the dipstick tube to get a UOA to see how your oil is doing without having to change your oil. Or just change it on the early side and do a UOA to see how it is doing. Fuel dilution is a major concern for me for running a long OCI and the major reason why I would look at less than 10k OCI if supported by UOA.


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## steelerfan (Aug 28, 2006)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (saaber2)*

Couldn't agree more. From the UOA's I've seen on the BITOG forums, it is important to know that not all 502 oils are created equally. Some oils definitely perform better than others. I have not seen a good UOA posted that went 10,000 miles, not saying that they aren't out there, just haven't seen any. Also, most of the other Euro brands (BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, etc) have much larger sumps than we do, some as much as twice ours, allowing for longer drain intervals.


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (steelerfan)*

Marginal UOAs here have been attributed to ethanol fuel. They tried to introduce the stuff in Germany recently and had major problems with oil oxidization. 
The new low-ash oils (ACEA C3, M-B 229.51, BMW LL-04) are more susceptible, but these are 18-25k approvals 10k should be well inside the limit.

_Modified by franz131 at 6:15 PM 9/15/2008_


_Modified by franz131 at 6:16 PM 9/15/2008_


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (cmosentine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cmosentine* »_So, do you believe in the 10K miles oil change interval for the 2.0T engine (or the 2.5 na for that matter)? Even with the new synthetics required by VW (502/505) I have a hard time believing they can go that long.
Furthermore, my APR dealer specifically suggested dropping it down to 5K. This dealer is locally known for their German car expertise.

Using the right oil, yes. Technically 502.00/505.00/505.01 oils are designed for fixed interval oil changes of up to 10,000 miles.
Since the 2.0T has a tendency to burn oil, in my experience I burn 1 qt of 5w40 502.00 oil every 5000 mles, so I change at 5,000 miles in the mean time.
Since the 2.5L does not have a turbo, it is a little gentler on the oil, so 10,000 mles is realistic using 502.00
the new 504/507 oils, which are 5w30, my oil consumption is doubled! I burn almost a quart every 2500 miles on my 08 Passat 2.0T!


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## americanautomoving (Sep 17, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (GT17V)*

I'm old school.. I believe the oil should be changed between 3k and 5k. NO EXCEPTIONS!


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (americanautomoving)*


_Quote, originally posted by *americanautomoving* »_I'm old school.. I believe the oil should be changed between 3k and 5k. NO EXCEPTIONS!

Why? Don't you believe in cars have progressed since the good old pushrod/OHV/V8/leaded fuel era? Maybe you own stock in Jiffy Lube (or even own one).
Long story short, there are huge volumes of science that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that changing your oil every 5,000 miles is wasteful.


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (americanautomoving)*


_Quote, originally posted by *americanautomoving* »_I'm old school.. I believe the oil should be changed between 3k and 5k. NO EXCEPTIONS!

The death knell for engine oil is oxidization of the base oil. This shows up as increases in viscosity and TAN coupled with a drop in TBN.
Gp IV (PAO) base oil is 300% more resistant to oxidization than GpI or II, 
Short of pouring raw fuel into the oil, you can't kill it in 5k.


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## AZV6 (May 3, 2006)

*Re: Do you believe ??? (cmosentine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cmosentine* »_So, do you believe in the 10K miles oil change interval for the 2.0T engine (or the 2.5 na for that matter)? Even with the new synthetics required by VW (502/505) I have a hard time believing they can go that long.
Furthermore, my APR dealer specifically suggested dropping it down to 5K. This dealer is locally known for their German car expertise.

Absolutely. If there is any doubt get your oil analyzed!
oils have really good detergents and additive packages that can take oils way way past the really old 3K mile oil change. That mind set was from way back in the day when there where no detergents and additives in oils. 
Your wasting your money changing it sooner and the motor...I can guarantee will be clean and run great up to 10K or even longer.
I have my oil tested (Using Pentosin) and it is clean and good @10K even have gone 15K with out any issues. 
I also change my air filter at 10K with an oem paper as K&N and others are terrible for filtering.
As long as you follow the scheduled maintenance your vehicle will last a long time. Use approved oil (pick a German made one 100% synthetic , Pentosin, Lubro-moly...) and OEM filter.
I have run many VW and other cars with 10-15K mile intervals with synthetic oil over 300K.
Don't waste your money changing any earlier.
Jason


_Modified by AZV6 at 5:20 PM 9-24-2008_


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