# 2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns



## quiettrader (Dec 10, 2004)

*Shuttering in drive line*

Hi everybody
Fortunately I have not had to do this before. Our Phaeton is 2 years old this month. We have 24K on the clock. The car has been great and the service from our dealer has been excellent.
About a month ago my wife began to notice a shuttering on light acceleration in 5th and 6th gear in the 1200 to 1600 RPM range. It has progressively gotten worse and this week the dealer replaced the main ECM; there was a recall on our serial number. This did not solved the problem. The tech has checked the car and there aren't any codes being reported either standing or under way. The dealership's position is "if there are no codes then it must be normal"; they did say it a little nicer than that. 
We have always used 91+ octane fuel and I could not see how bad gas would only affect that RPM range and just those two gears? The engine has to be warm before it is noticeable
All thoughts and similar experiences will be greatly appreciated


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

First of all I wonder if your tires are original, and what condition they are in? Besides wear, check also for scalloping (where the thread sticks out unevenly over the circumference of the tire, you can feel this easily with your hand as well as visually). I have experienced a similar problem at similar speeds with other cars (though not with the Phaeton) which I eventually traced to the tires.
Secondly, it might be related to partial clogging of the fuel filter, thouch I suspect in this case it would generate a fault code (Michael, your thoughts please).
Thirdly, I would not rule out a plain old mechanical wear cause, especially in the drive shafts. To narrow it down, could you describe the problem in more detail, such as speed, is it noticeable when going straight or while turning, when cold or hot, etc. 
By the way, this kind of problem used to be more common many years ago, primarily on stick shift vehicles. It was often caused by tire wear problems (as described above) or by a glazed flywheel due to overheating of the clutch.
Stefano


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

*Archival Note:*  This post and image was added long after the start of this discussion, but I figured that we might as well 'cut to the chase' and put it up front.

See this tech tip, it might be relevant:


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*


_Quote, originally posted by *quiettrader* »_ ... About a month ago my wife began to notice a shuttering on light acceleration in 5th and 6th gear in the 1200 to 1600 RPM range. It has progressively gotten worse and this week the dealer replaced the main ECM; there was a recall on our serial number. This did not solved the problem. ...

Can this problem be readily reproduced? If so, the next time it is acting up, try slipping the shift lever over into Tiptronic mode. The car will remain in the current gear but the behavior of the torque converter clutch will change. My feeling is that this problem might be transmission related and not engine related.
It might be a worthwhile troubleshooting exercise to try Tip and Sport modes as well as Drive in an effort to more clearly define the problem.
Good luck!


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## quiettrader (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

Thanks everyone,
I will try an answer your questions. Once the car is warm the problem is constant, but is more noticeable when turning Left and under more load, such as going upon hill. The problem has worsened with a 500 mile trip to NC. The RPM rang has expanded, to about 2000 and the shutter is more severe. The tire are original and look perfect. 
The vibration is felt by all passengers. The idea that it is drive line related is mine but not the dealers, they want to blame the engine. I like the analogy of clutch chatter, but this is the worst clutch chatter I have experienced. I have driven sports cars since the sixty's and have trashed my share of clutches. Finally it does not occur under moderate or heavy acceleration. Cars fuel mileage was down a little on this last trip, 22.5 as opposed to the normal 24.5.
Thats all I have for now 
Thanks


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## fuse (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

I bet its a differential or cv joint. The engine has nothing to do with turning left or right, so if that reliably reproduces it, its not the engine.


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## rrussell (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

Transmission fluid? Is it low?


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## pmullin (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

I've been having (possibly) a very similar problem. In my case, I would have described it as periodic vibration felt up through the car, most typically at 40-55 mph, under light acceleration. Of course, under heavy acceleration you're not in that speed range for very long.
What you feel is a series of "pulses", a pause, and then another series.
So far, the dealership has replaced the right rear hub and bearings, rebalanced the prop shaft, force load balanced the tires, replaced the differential. Vibration become more mild, and less consistent, but was still there.
Next they had me put the original rims back on, as I had put Bortbet 18 inchers on it to free up the OEM rims for snows, I have the same problem.
At this stage the problem is mild enough and infrequent enough that the dealer would like me to drive it until it becomes worse or more reproduceable (as it was at first) so they can do more diagnosis. They have never suggested the engine, they seem to be working their way through all the drive train components... but maybe these two dealers should compare notes?
Anyone have a uber-tech contact in Dresden who is vacationing in North America soon?


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

Thanks for clarifying. An easy way to rule out the tires is to rotate (fl to rl and fr to rr): I would do it anyway, since it's cheap and easy.
Having said that, what you describe definitely suggests a bad cv joint, quite possibily due to a damaged rubber boot: a visual inspection might confirm it. The fact that it's deteriorating rapidly is also consistent: when a cv joint goes, it goes fast, especially on a powerful car. You mention it starts when the car is warm: does this mean after only a few minutes or longer? This could also be consistent with a cv joint, especially one damaged by dirt due to a cracked rubber boot: the resulting play could be emphasized by heath expansion.
Another suggestion: try to nail down the circumstances under which it happens, preferably with your tech on board. The easiest way might be to drive up (rapidly, if possible) a multi-storey garage, where the ramps will force two tight left turns uphill for each floor. Then drive down (opposite turns and downhill) and note if the problem is much less noticeable or disappears altogether. If yes, I would efinitely replace the cv joint.
Stefano


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## pmullin (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (Motorista)*

Question: my symptoms described previously occur when driving in a straight line. Would that change your suggestion in my case?


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pmullin)*

Yes, definitely, although I would still take a look at the tires. Could you describe them again, in as much detail as possible. Also, feel free to IM me with your e-mail if you'd like to continue this off line.
Stefano


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pmullin)*

Hi Pmullin,
I re-read your earlier posting, and have the following questions:
1) at what revolutions does the problem occur? Assuming something reasonable that will not trigger the transmission downshift logic, say around 2500, try using manual shift mode and see if it happens in all gears once you reach the critical revolutions or only in some. Also try it with the car in neutral, at the same engine revolutions: can you still hear/feel the clicks, even though the car is not moving?
2) Temperature: does it happen regardless of engine temperature? outside temperature?
3) How many miles when you first noticed it? How many now?
4) brand and type of tires?
5) When it happens, does the car actually lose momentum, however momentarily, or is the click-pause-click more of an engine revolutions variation?
6) When the problem happens, what's the duration? is it in the order of a fraction of a second, or longer, like 1-2 seconds? does the sequence clicks-pause-clicks happen only once or for several cycles? 
Stefano


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## pmullin (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (Motorista)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Motorista* »_Hi Pmullin,
I re-read your earlier posting, and have the following questions:
1) at what revolutions does the problem occur? Assuming something reasonable that will not trigger the transmission downshift logic, say around 2500, try using manual shift mode and see if it happens in all gears once you reach the critical revolutions or only in some. Also try it with the car in neutral, at the same engine revolutions: can you still hear/feel the clicks, even though the car is not moving?
2) Temperature: does it happen regardless of engine temperature? outside temperature?
3) How many miles when you first noticed it? How many now?
4) brand and type of tires?
5) When it happens, does the car actually lose momentum, however momentarily, or is the click-pause-click more of an engine revolutions variation?
6) When the problem happens, what's the duration? is it in the order of a fraction of a second, or longer, like 1-2 seconds? does the sequence clicks-pause-clicks happen only once or for several cycles? 
Stefano

1) It appears to be independant of RPM. I have tested by using the tiptronic mode holding the gear low, and the same results
2) temperature doesn't appear to be a variable either, but it has happened less recently after VW has been doing work on the car, and our weather has been warmer.. so far as engine temp is concerned, it occurs cold and warmed up as well (after driving for as much as an hour)
3) the car had 19K miles when I purchased it, I first noticed it around 21k miles, and it is now at 24K miles.
4) tires and rims are (again) stock now, Michelin all season OEM tires and OEM rims.
5) The car has sometimes momentarly lost momentum yes.. that's a symptom that now that you ask, I hadn't really noticed and I haven' reported to VW yet.
6) Duration is one to two seconds elapsed time.. usually the pattern is one set of vibrations, but it has sometimes been longer than that. As I said though, that was before VW started changing parts, and it has improved (but not disappeared).
you can email me at [email protected] if you like to continue off line. Thanks for the help!


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pmullin)*

Paul,
Your description of the problem would rule out engine (for sure) and powertrain (almost sure). At this point, I'm homing in on the tires/wheels, perhaps even one tire. Specifically, a tire that has suffered some damage (road hazard or manufacturing defect) and is not properly balanced. This can easily become evident only at some, critical speeds. I see three possibilities, in ascending order of cost:
1) Have tires balanced by a *knowledgeable* tire specialist (emphasis on knowledgeable! and they will need modern equipment). This may take care of the problem. If not, it could still be a tire, with a (non-visible) deformation thjta makes it impossible to balance effectively: see 2 below.
2) Replace tires, one at a time, wiht spare. I would start with front, since it's easier to detect a front wheel problem, especially given the Phaeton's extremely long wheelbase and significant weight. Once you find the bad tire, discard it. This troubleshooting method is inexepnsive but time-consuming, since you need to take the car for a test drive after each tire swap.
3) Replace all four tires with new ones. Quick but obviously expensive, though, given your mileage, it might be almost time anyway.
I'll follow up by e-mail for a couple of additional questions.
Stefano


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## mkerr (Dec 12, 2005)

I'm wondering if this has any relationship to the 'clicking' noise I hear when I turn (still not resolved, look in archives for the thread). Mine wasn't related to speed, and only happens upon turning, however. Lots of sumilar suggestions (CV joint, wheel bearing, etc.). Im curious to see how yours gets resolved.


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## quiettrader (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

Six weeks and three dealers later they have decided to rebuild the transmission. Lets hope this is the problem.


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*

Quiettrader - I just posted, same problem, almost identical. worst in 5th and 6th gear, light accel, 1200-2000 rpm. It is slowly getting worse, to the point I can reproduce it pretty easily. Car has 13000 miles, just started with this problem a couple months ago. Dealer basically said nothing wrong, nothing to fix. Their explanation was that there is a solenoid that has some effect on the torque converter, such that under light acceleration the torque converter can't decide whether to be fully locked out or not, and this solenoid is what controls the torque converter "locking out". Basically the shudder we feel is the solenoid itself going on and off, or doing whatever it does. The techs told me they had the car hooked up to something and reproduced the issue and this is what was happening. I am not sure I believe this, but I will wait and see what happens to you. Lets keep each other posted.
Mike


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## quiettrader (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

Mike.
Sounds like you may have the same problem. Mine eventually would present itself even in the sport mode on deceleration. Bob King Volkswagen in Wilmington, NC discovered a service bulletin indicating some Phaeons have improper trans fluid in them and that flushing the trans several times and then adding the correct fluid would fix this problem. So far after 600 miles we are SHUTTER FREE. Hope this helps.
Cliff


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*


_Quote, originally posted by *quiettrader* »_Mike.
Sounds like you may have the same problem. Mine eventually would present itself even in the sport mode on deceleration. Bob King Volkswagen in Wilmington, NC discovered a service bulletin indicating some Phaeons have improper trans fluid in them and that flushing the trans several times and then adding the correct fluid would fix this problem. So far after 600 miles we are SHUTTER FREE. Hope this helps.
Cliff

I'm glad to hear a fluid flush fixed your problem. Here is Mike's thread to keep this information together.
"surging" under light acceleration


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*


_Quote, originally posted by *quiettrader* »_Sounds like you may have the same problem. Mine eventually would present itself even in the sport mode on deceleration. Bob King Volkswagen in Wilmington, NC discovered a service bulletin indicating some Phaetons have improper trans fluid in them and that flushing the trans several times and then adding the correct fluid would fix this problem. So far after 600 miles we are SHUTTER FREE. Hope this helps.


Cliff:
Thanks a lot for posting that report of your own experience. It sounds almost exactly like what Martin encountered in Hawaii a while back - see this thread: Transmission noise. I guess the bottom line is that if anyone has a transmission related problem, give Phaeton Customer Care a call, and they will be able to assist you with getting it fixed, because they are familiar with what the issue is.
Michael


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael, I did just that yesterday, called Diane at PCC. She is working on it. When I took my car in for the first visit 2 weeks ago, I suggested they change the trans fluid in the way outlined by the service bulletin, and they simply said no. They said there are no fault codes, you'll need to learn to live with it. Period. I said it wasn't acceptable and then they looked at me and there was uncomfortable silence. I wonder why there is such a resistance to try and make me happy. I am aware that changing the trans fluid is a bit of a pain, but not as bad as replacing the trans or ecm or anything like that. I was frustrated when I left, but I was already watching this post, to see what happened to quiettrader. When he posted his success, I called Diane and asked her to help me out. It shouldn't be this hard, should it? Anyone have suggestions on what to do next? I assume they will take my car again, check the trans fluid level, and tell me it is fine, no need to change it. How hard is it to just fix it right? Not to mention it is their responsibility to fix it right and hopefully the first time, with minimal annoyance to me. Isn't that the point of a warranty, and a premium car? Very frustrating.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_...When I took my car in for the first visit 2 weeks ago, I suggested they change the trans fluid in the way outlined by the service bulletin, and they simply said no. They said there are no fault codes, you'll need to learn to live with it ... Very frustrating. 

Hi Michael:
Yes, I agree, it does sound frustrating.
I'm going to guess (and this is strictly a guess, speculation) that perhaps that particular dealer just got their warranty expense claims audited by VW, or perhaps they recently got reamed out by VW over the amount of warranty claims that have been submitted, or maybe they recently had a number of large warranty claims for other vehicles that have pushed their warranty budget up over the limit for whatever accounting period they are in at the moment.
Dealers who have Service Managers who are long term employees and who have good relations with VW of America (built up over the years) would probably know who to call at VW and say "Hey, I know we're running high right now, but I think we both should make an exception for goodwill on this car..." , but a dealer with less experienced service management staff, or perhaps a dealer with less than stellar management at the top might not be this sharp.
It's also possible that the technicians at the dealership have never done this before, and are not comfortable doing it.
I really don't know what to suggest - perhaps call Phaeton Customer Care back and ask if they have any suggestions. PCC is a 'facilitator', which means they are a bit like United Nations Peacekeepers - they don't have the raw authority to call up a dealer and say "Do this!", but they do have a fair bit of influence, and for sure, they know how to stratagize solutions to problems like yours.
Michael


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

I did call Diane back, and gave her the name of a different dealer, only 30 minutes away. I said I would be happy to go there if they are more interested in having my business and making things right. She is calling the place in wilmington NC that succesfully fixed quiettrader's car and going to see if we can get that done up here at one of the 2 local dealers. I will keep you all posted.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

Diane is amazing, and does a phenomenal job of juggling many different issues.
Be aware that the folks at PCC are really under a lot of 'diplomatic pressure' from many different directions. Obviously, the owners just want to have a trouble-free experience with the car, and as few dealer problems (such as you reported) as possible. However - the dealers themselves can put pressure on VW of America because they don't want the Customer Care folks to steer customers to the dealers that the Customer Care employees know are the competent, friendly, and efficient dealers.
So, whenever you make posts reporting your experiences with PCC, you need to be very circumspect about how much you say, lest the folks at PCC wind up getting flack from the dealer network.
Sad, but true.
Michael


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

Quick update, I dropped the car off at another dealership Tuesday. The car "acted up' the entire 45 minute drive to the place, then the minute the service manager got in the car, the shuddering went away. No kidding. It was the only time in the past month or 2 that the transmssion didn't have issues. I couldn't believe it (and I was getting so good at making it happen on demand!!!). So, I told him this and said I promise you this issue will return. Please keep the car, and you drive it to and from work every day, use it like it is your car, because it is worst on my short (5 mile) trips to and from work every day. Keep it until you feel it and then can fix it. 
So, we will see what happens. Also, Diane did get the info from Bob King VW in NC, where Cliff went, describing his car's issues, diagnosis, and treatment, and I believe she will pass that along to the service manager who is working on my car. Keep your fingers crossed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_ ... So, I told him... Please keep the car, and you drive it to and from work every day, use it like it is your car...

Darn good idea.
I always ask one of the technicians at my VW dealership to put the first 300 miles or so on every new car I buy there, and my Phaeton was no exception. I signed all the papers, gave the key to the Phaeton tech, and then went back 7 days later to pick up the car, which by then had about 300 miles on it. It was perfect, absolutely perfect, right from day one.
Michael


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

Update - would like input from quiettrader and Paneuro here.
Spoke with service today, they have been persistent in trying to figure out my surging / shuttering problem. Bottom line is, they want to replace the torque converter. The idea is that It is locking up at the incorrect times. This was reviewed with the VW tech people or whomever, so it seems legit. But it also seems invasive. I have tried to respectfully suggest attempting to swap out the trans fluid like quiettrader had done, but they tell me that there is absolutely no evidence or precedent that that would do anything. I know the TSB has to do with 2004 cars, and some seal, but was that the problem for quiettrader? Was his car in that series of cars that had the issue? I will be the first to admit I don't know what I am talking about here, but I do want to get the right fix, and the least invasive (because we all know that the car is never put back together the same once it is apart). Does anyone have any advice here? Thanks a lot. And by the way, let me just say again that these guys have been very persistent and done a great job to try to help me, much much better than the other dealership I was working with. The only downside???? The loaner I got was the best they could do, brand new 2007 Ford Taurus. It is a fine car, but driving it REALLY makes me appreciate the Phaeton in so many ways. I am officially ruined for "normal" cars for the rest of my life. Thanks everyone for all the help (and Diane at PCC too).


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

If my phaeton had exhibited this drive-line shudder and I was in your shoes, I would pay for a transmission fluid change out of my own pocket before allowing them to replace the torque converter. Additionally, I would have the transmission controller (address 02) reset to it's factory defaults so that it could re-learn it's adaptive shift maps (couple of minutes labor).
Pentosin ATF (I don't know the exact part # for the phaeton transmission) is around 10-15 dollars / liter and you'll need 9 or so for the 3x change. Figure a few hours for labor as it's not that tough of a job with the proper tools. A few hundred bucks maybe ... ?
I would imagine torque converter failure to be much more catastrophic and not as subtle as the rapid clutch lockup and release cycle you are experiencing.
In any event, good luck getting your issue resolved.
See this link from the automatic transmission forum for an interesting look at the 'lifetime' fluid.
Heads-up: VW "Lifetime" auto transmission fluid (baloney!!!) 
Edit:
This was the thread where martingie reported back on his fluid change, note they changed it 2 times, not 3 like I mentioned above.

_Quote, originally posted by *martingie* »_Hi, let them check the transfluid. There are cases (mine was one), with the wrong fluid from factory. We had posts about that . My dealer had to order the fluid from germany, and said later it even smelled different. They have to flush it twice. My noise was also discribed as a seal barking under hard acceleration. After the change it was gone and I have now a very quit and smooth trans again.

Transmission noise on down-shift? 



_Modified by pretendcto at 5:53 PM 10-18-2006_


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## quiettrader (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

Mike.
My experience with car folks is that good and thoroughly trained people will take things apart properly and put them back properly. Remember, this was the third dealer that looked at this problem for me. The first one did exactly what yours did, no codes no fix. If you are comfortable with the tech and the service writer, then I would follow their lead. 
The staff at PCC are good. No one at Bob King thought that this would fix my problem, they were convinced they would need to go into the trans. My car is still shifting properly, so I guess PCC knows whats up.


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (quiettrader)*


_Quote, originally posted by *quiettrader* »_... No one at Bob King thought that this would fix my problem, they were convinced they would need to go into the trans. My car is still shifting properly, so I guess PCC knows whats up.


_Quote, originally posted by *quiettrader* »_Mike.
Sounds like you may have the same problem. Mine eventually would present itself even in the sport mode on deceleration. Bob King Volkswagen in Wilmington, NC discovered a service bulletin indicating some Phaeons have improper trans fluid in them and that flushing the trans several times and then adding the correct fluid would fix this problem. So far after 600 miles we are SHUTTER FREE. Hope this helps.
Cliff

Cliff,
Just to clarify, the fix that cured your transmission problem was the fluid flush and refill only. Or, did I miss a major repair ...








Thanks,
Paul


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pretendcto)*

Cliff-- Are our problems the same? Were you part of the big trans mistake of 04, with the service bulletin? Who did your work at Bob King, do you have a name or a service manager who would remember this, someone I could call and discuss my issue with? Perhaps they could tell me how they diagnosed your problem and why the tech folks told them to attempt the trans fluid replacement. My dealer told me that the tech folks "never heard of replacing the trans fluid" for these issues???? 
I have discussed with them the option of changing the trans fluid and having me pay for it, although I find it somewhat strange that they wouldn't want to try this first, as it is relatively quick, easy, and cheap, and that I should have to pay for it at all. They said they checked the trans fluid level and it was ok, but I don't know that that really proves anything, right? And they told me a trans fuid change, just change, no flush, would be like $500. 
Quiettrader, was it PCC who suggested this, because Diane isn't familiar with it? She seemed to suggest that there were multiple things wrong with your car and they did multiple fixes to take care of them, so it wasn't as simple as 1 problem, 1 fix. So what's the story?
Thanks for all your help. Mike


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_... And they told me a trans fuid change, just change, no flush, would be like $500.

I have read the phaeton service manual many times and I have priced out the cost of materials, etc. The procedure to change the fluid is just not that difficult. A few A8 owners with the same ZF 6-speed transmission have done the job themselves. I would ...







.
The dealership quote of $500 dollars is, to me, outrageous.


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pretendcto)*

Well, I'm a smart guy, how hard is it to change my trans fluid? Much harder than changing oil or something? I'll crawl around on the ground for a bit. But I don't have a lift or anything, and if I need special tools to flush it, I don't have those either. I would rather do this than hav my torque cnoverter changed, which I might add has also never been proven to fix this problem, so why they would try that first is something I don't understand.


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

Changing the transmission fluid is considerably more involved than changing the engine oil because you do need a few special tools.
First, you'd need a service manual from Bentley publishers, either CD-ROM or a web-based subscription.
Bentley Publishers - VW 
Second, you'd need a VAG-COM diagnostic tool from Ross-Tech so that you could properly monitor the fluid temperature.
Ross-Tech 
Third, you'd need 4 very good quality jack stands and a level work surface as you have to raise the car enough to work under it while it's running. Seriously.
Fourth, you'd need the fill tool which hangs from the hood and feeds the fluid through a tube with a special shaped nozzle that fits into the drain plug opening. I've seen them online before.
... 
You get the idea ... not tough, just very procedure oriented.
But, in your case, since you are already having transmission issues, I think it would be wise to let a VW dealer perform any work so that you protect your warranty.
I really do believe this has a good chance at solving your problem. I am dismayed at how mechanics have become part swappers all driven by fault codes.
Like I said before, good luck getting past this annoying issue ..








PS - I already most of the above tools so it's easy for me to sit here and be an armchair mechanic.










_Modified by pretendcto at 6:53 PM 10-18-2006_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

I'm trying to figure out if I have the same problem.
The 1 to 2 shift at light to moderate acceleration has something like a "surge" in that first gear seems to disengage, the RPM's jump up and then it shifts a little hard into 2nd gear. The shifts into all the other gears is so smooth you don't feel them. I wonder if the 1-2 shift is "slipping" a bit?
My other experience is the "seal barking" sound when the car downshifts from 4th to 3rd during moderate to hard acceleration when the transmission is hot and is especially noticeable when going uphill.
There is also a range of transmission noises that are whining or moaning sounds, probably normal.


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (Paldi)*

I hate to admit it but I'm also very well versed with the mechanicals of both Honda and Chrysler minivans. If you haven't guessed, I'm the family mechanic.
You would be amazed at the transmission weirdness with both makes that is cured by a fluid change. I'm not joking. Check out http://www.odyclub.com/ and http://www.chryslerminivan.net if you dare. LOL.
Considering how much the phaeton costs to own and operate, and considering that at least 2 other posters on this board have had their transmissions fixed by a fluid change, it seems only logical to me to spend the $$$ on 6 L of fluid (for 2 drain/refills) and an hour (or two if slow) on labor to try a cheap fix.
I would, no doubt.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pretendcto)*

I have the feeling that if VW techs say it's operating *normally* they won't authorize a replacement of the fluid, even if I pay for it. At the 30k checkup, when I listed the "barking" on my investigate list, they refused to check the fluid level, let alone change it. I think if my V8 had as quiet an exhaust as the W12, I would really be upset about the tranny noise, but the exhaust masks a lot of the whining. The barking I can avoid by avoiding downshifts at 40 mph. The shift quality from 1st to second is growing to be very annoying. Only 5k miles to go for the 40,000 check up. Should I wait?


----------



## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (Paldi)*

Fred, that 1-2 gear thing is another one of my problems, and has also been getting worse. Like a hesitation before it decides to upshift. But the shuttering is much worse for me. I guess I will call the dealership and see about a trans fluid change. And I may call Bob King VW in North Carolina and see if I can track something down. By the way, don't I need like 6 liters of fluid PER FILL, so 18 all together? Thanks a lot.
Mike


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_... By the way, don't I need like 6 liters of fluid PER FILL, so 18 all together? Thanks a lot.
Mike

Mike,
The service manual states that the change amount is about 3 liters. The other 6 liters (total capacity of 9L) or so are 'stuck' inside the torque converter and other internals. That's why you need to have it changed 2 or 3 times so that enough of the old is replaced with the new. So, I'm guessing 6-9 liters total fluid needed.
Paul


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_I have the feeling that if VW techs say it's operating *normally* they won't authorize a replacement of the fluid, even if I pay for it. At the 30k checkup, when I listed the "barking" on my investigate list, they refused to check the fluid level, let alone change it. .....

If I were an executive at VW, heads would be rolling at dealerships all over the USA. For that matter, at HQ for allowing this dysfunctional service to continue. I understand cautious behavior when it's on their dime, but when the customer is willing to pay??? I just don't get it. The procedure for changing the transmission fluid is completely documented in less than 3 easy-to-understand paragraphs in the service manual.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pretendcto)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pretendcto* »_The procedure for changing the transmission fluid is completely documented in less than 3 easy-to-understand paragraphs in the service manual. 

True, but the reality of the experience is a bit different. If you have not done it before, it takes a long time to do it the first time, and technicians in the USA are paid flat rate (piecework), not salary. So, the technicians might just be ducking the job because they have more profitable work to do - for example, changing the timing belt on a Golf diesel engine, which pays about 4.5 hours but can be accomplished in 90 minutes if you are proficient at it.
You might have better luck if you offer to drop the car off for a few days, so the staff can get to it during a quiet time. The reality is that you need to have three people participating all at the same time to get this job done correctly. I know this doesn't address the root issue, but it's the least stressful workaround. Another possibility - if you can wait that long - is to bring it in for the oil change during the first couple of weeks of January, when every technician in the shop is starving for work, and they are willing to do anything to bring home a paycheque that week.
Michael


----------



## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

I just spoke with the dealer. He said they would do a complete drain and change of the fluid, 9 liters, and I could pay for that. he said $500. Fluid is $36 per liter, plus labor. He once again implied that this is a unnecessary, and said that the fluid will be completely changed when they replace the torque converter, and at that time (next week) it will ALL be covered under warranty. Should i just wait and have it all done then, and covered? The only issue would then be my baseline concern that they will screw something up, as this is "major surgery". Is torque converter changing easy, so there is little chance of a mistake? This is a small dealership, so I doubt they have a ton of experience with Phaeton torque converter changes, but then again i doubt any dealership in the US has changed many Phaeton torque converters. Any advice from out there?


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

I have to believe that a competent shop can remove and replace the torque converter without much trouble. Of course, the real key question is whether you've got a competent shop in terms of equipment and talent ...
Faced with a $500 bill for just a fluid change or a $0 bill for a new torque converter and, of course, a very thorough fluid change I would go with the shop's recommendation.
If it were your $$$ instead of VW's then my recommendation would be different for sure.
Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.
Edit:
You are correct in assuming it's a very big job. Here is a quote from the Bentley service manual for a V8 phaeton.
"The automatic transmission 09L is removed together with the transmission mounts, transfer case, ATF lines, and engine. The transmission can be separated from the engine on the Scissor Lift Table to e.g. remove and install the torque converter. "


_Modified by pretendcto at 10:31 AM 10-19-2006_


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_... Fluid is $36 per liter, plus labor....

I wonder if another option is to see if you can find the required fluid substantially cheaper than $36 quart.
If you do the math, 36 x 9 = $324. So, labor must be 500 - 324 = $176.
If you can reduce the fluid cost to something more reasonable, then you'd be looking at a substantially reduced price. Might be worth it to try ...
I wonder if one of these is the correct fluid. Maybe somebody can confirm the part number.
GermanAutoParts.com
Anyway, something to think about.
Edit:
Well, it may in fact be closer to $38 / liter. Of course, the actual part number would eliminate the guessing game.
AutoPartsWorld.com 



_Modified by pretendcto at 3:51 PM 10-19-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_Should i just wait and have it all done then...

That is what I would do. Go with the dealership's recommendation, I am sure that they have your best interests at heart.
Also, it is to your advantage (not disadvantage) that you have a small shop. A single customer typically matters a lot more to a small shop than to a huge shop.
What you could do to help - and this would be a very nice courtesy - is to offer to leave the car for two or three days, just in case the staff need the time to call VW's Technician Support Line for some expert advice or consultation during the project. Offering to leave it for two or three days would take the pressure off the staff, and give them the 'breathing room' they need to take the time to do everything perfectly.
Michael


----------



## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

I guess i will let them do it then. i just want it fixed, as good as new, that's all. i have tried to be extremely accommodating with "leaving the car". I let them have it to investigate the problem, that was last Tuesday. They suggested I let it there until the part comes "7-10 days", then a couple days to fix it. So i have been without the car for 9 days already, and probably 2 more weeks. This Taurus they gave me is killing me. Uncomfortable, loud, but, good FM reception!!!!! Thanks for all the help, i will keep updates coming.
Mike


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

Picked it up yesterday, replaced torque converter, trans fluid, other things. Trans seems fixed. new small problem, a trim piece on the inside isn't on right, can I fix it myself? It makes a terrible rattle. It is the long wide gray strip of plastic below the wood vent covers, above the hazard switch. It is the strip that encases the buttons for the individual vents. It is fine on the driver's side, but obviously loose on the passneger side, lifted up several millimeters. I have photos if I can email them to someone. I just want to know how to snap it in right, or if I need to glue or epoxy it? Thanks for all the help everyone.
mike


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

Hi Mike:
Glad to hear that the dealer got all the mechanicals (transmission, stuff like that) fixed. Respecting the trim strip that you mentioned, I have never seen that strip installed or removed, so I can't offer any advice based on experience. Attached to the bottom of this post, in Adobe Acrobat PDF format, is an illustration that shows the trim strip in an 'exploded' view. This has been extracted from the VW Phaeton Repair Manual, section 87 (HVAC), which is the only reference I could find for this piece.
In principle, I don't recommend you use any kind of adhesive (glue, epoxy) except as an absolute last resort. Unless one of the attachment arms is broken, you should be able to find the fastener that holds the strip in place, and solve the problem there. 
If you want to go searching for the attachment, open the glove compartment door and have a look 'up' at the bottom of the strip. In theory, you need to remove the glove compartment to get access to that trim strip. In reality, you might be able to get sufficient access to it by just removing the four fasteners that hold the glove compartment cavity in place... that might allow the glove compartment to drop down half an inch or so, which would probably be enough to allow you access to the attachment point of the trim strip.
I have attached a picture of the four glove compartment fasteners below. If it is necessary to remove the two CD players, then you will need to enlist the help of your VW dealer, who will have the 'quick release' keys for the CD players on hand. Normally these keys are stored with the parts department manager.
Michael
*Four screws holding glove compartment cavity in place (items 3 and 4)*


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (pretendcto)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pretendcto* »_
You are correct in assuming it's a very big job. Here is a quote from the Bentley service manual for a V8 phaeton.
"The automatic transmission 09L is removed together with the transmission mounts, transfer case, ATF lines, and *engine.* The transmission can be separated from the engine on the Scissor Lift Table to e.g. remove and install the torque converter. "



I'm happy your Phaeton is back on the road again and no worse for the experience but a mis-fitted trim part. But I am curious to know, did they actually remove the engine? Mine is in service now for similar issues at 35,000 miles.


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (Paldi)*

Yes, entire engine and trans removed. They did the dismantle when they ordered the part, so it sat dismantled for a few days, but when the torque converter got there, they replaced it and put it back together.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

I wonder if they took any pictures during the operation? 
Also, check to see if they put in a turbo W12 engine? VW service departments make mistakes and do stuff like that on occasion.
I'm glad your car is back, good as new.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (dododavis)*

VW has recently published a 'Tech Tip' that addresses this exact issue. The complete text of the Tech Tip is as follows:
*TT 07-70
2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns*
For customer complaints of a vibration/shudder, verify that the concern occurs between 1600 and 2000 rpm. If the vibration is determined to be within this range, please contact the Volkswagen Dealer Technician’s Helpline for further instruction.

So, if anyone encounters this problem, perhaps mention to the staff at your VW service department that this Tech Tip exists - this will probably save them a lot of time if they are not aware of it.
Lastly, please be aware that there are two entirely different 'transmission issues' that apply to the Phaeton fleet:
*1)* The above note about the *V8* Phaetons, which use a 6 speed transmission, and;
*2)* The MIL light illuminating and "DTC 17125, P0741 Stored In Transmission Fault Memory" problem that only applies to *W12* Phaetons that use the 5 speed transmission.
The two issues are entirely unrelated to each other, and there is no crossover at all - the two transmissions are very different. So, please let's be careful to not get them confused during future discussion.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Shuttering in drive line (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:*
For information about transmission concerns on *V8 * powered Phaetons that use the 6 speed transmission, see these posts: 
2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns
6 Speed Automatic Transmission Concerns (V8 Phaetons)
For information about transmission concerns on *W12 * powered Phaetons that use the 5 speed transmission, see this post:
Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter?
Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)

Please do not confuse the two transmissions! There are known issues that affect a minority of the Phaetons out there with both of the transmissions, but the two transmissions are as different as chalk and cheese! All V8 Phaetons have a 6 speed transmission installed, and all W12 Phaetons have a 5 speed transmission installed. There is no carry-over and no correlation between the problems described and solutions provided for the two different transmissions!
Michael


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

*transmission question*

i went through the archived transmission thread and came to the conclusion that my phaeton has the same "shuddering" thats occurring in 3rd and 5th gears at approx 1500-1900 rpm, which feels like a clutch slippage. on to the queston....
my tech said that the shuddering is caused by the "valve body" in the transmission and replacing that should get the shudder out and make the gear changes snappier. correct me if i am wrong, but arent the gear changes supposed to be smooth as opposed to snappy unless i am in S-mode? and is this "valve body" thing even right? he is not a cert. phaeton tech so its not easy for me to believe what he is saying is true when most of us V8 owners are experiencing the same problem.


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## george777 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Re: transmission question (itsallbeendonebefore)*

Sometimes, I swear, you guys sweat over some minor 'details'. Just drive the car...and enjoy it as much as you can. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination...and never will be. There are always going to be certain issues that some might find more prevalent than others...
Since I started watching these boards (Vortex) I've seen more problems than I care to remember...and some have been horrific (according to the posters). There's a member here that's had nothing but problems since purchasing his Phaeton (one that I was ready to look at, but for the fact he bought it before I got there!). 
Still, to my thinking, it's all in the way you treat your car. I don't push her to the limits, as some around here would (and do)...but that's just me. Just be ready for the consequenses if you do...


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: transmission question (itsallbeendonebefore)*

Depends on the cost. if it is cheaper, you might want to try to flush the transmission fluid. It is the least invasive way to treat minor transmission problems. (It is however, a $700-$800 job)
Also, get the job done with a Phaeton certified tech.


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: transmission question (itsallbeendonebefore)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itsallbeendonebefore* »_i went through the archived transmission thread and came to the conclusion that my phaeton has the same "shuddering" thats occurring in 3rd and 5th gears at approx 1500-1900 rpm, which feels like a clutch slippage. on to the queston....
my tech said that the shuddering is caused by the "valve body" in the transmission and replacing that should get the shudder out and make the gear changes snappier. correct me if i am wrong, but arent the gear changes supposed to be smooth as opposed to snappy unless i am in S-mode? and is this "valve body" thing even right? he is not a cert. phaeton tech so its not easy for me to believe what he is saying is true when most of us V8 owners are experiencing the same problem. 


My transmission was replaced due to shuddering and a hard shift, the shift was so hard, when I came to a stop light to stop, the transmission would shift very hard (it felt like I was being rear ended a few times). I can't seem to find the thread I created many months ago..
Sport mode changes the gear ratio and shift time; (shorter and faster) hard shifts are definitely noticeable here. I don't use sport that much, I don't see the point in Sport mode in a limo.. 
I agree with Francisco, get the flush done with a VW Phaeton Tech; it will be worth the money and/or less headache.. 
Have a great day! Good luck with your diagnosis and repair!
- Adrian


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

*Re: transmission question (george777)*


_Quote, originally posted by *george777* »_it's all in the way you treat your car. I don't push her to the limits, as some around here would (and do)...but that's just me. Just be ready for the consequenses if you do...

I understand you came to the conclusion that i beat on my car. actually i baby it and have only tried the S-mode ONCE. i wished it was a minor problem like a little rattle that comes and goes but its a very prominent shudder something like a clutch slip. I would think its better to take care of the problem than to make it worse dont u think?







. 
Thanks Adrian and Francisco, I think I will get a ATF flush done by a cert. phaeton tech and see where it stands in regard to the shudder and report back. 


_Modified by itsallbeendonebefore at 11:54 AM 9-4-2008_


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## george777 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Re: transmission question (itsallbeendonebefore)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itsallbeendonebefore* »_
I understand you came to the conclusion that i beat on my car. 

Not my intention, my apologies...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: transmission question (itsallbeendonebefore)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itsallbeendonebefore* »_i went through the archived transmission thread and came to the conclusion that my phaeton has the same "shuddering" thats occurring in 3rd and 5th gears at approx 1500-1900 rpm...

Hi Slajan:
I appended your new post onto this existing discussion. What you describe is a 'known issue', however, I don't know what the full story is behind it. I do know that VW has published a Tech Tip which is attached above.
My suggestion is that you print the Tech Tip and ask your technician to call the VW Technician Help Line. That will eliminate the guessing and 'shotgunning' and allow a more rapid diagnosis of exactly what the problem is.
Michael


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## Fighterguy (Aug 23, 2006)

*Re: transmission question (PanEuropean)*

Just finished having the Tech Tip procedure done and offer these observations.
The Tech Tip solution really works and seems to improve shifting across the entire spectrum. Eliminates all surging and smoother shifts under normal acceleration.
The correction procedure involves both changing the ATF to a different type (Part No. G 055 162 A2) and re-flashing the engine and transmission control modules. Changing the fluid made the biggest difference, but both procedures are needed because...
I think the surging problem results from the transmission not making up its mind to unlock the torque converter and/or downshift under light acceleration. After the fix, the transmission is much quicker to decide when to unlock/downshift.
Requires 2 - 3 days to do, depending on the OAT (aviator for outside air temperature). Mandated requirement to heat and cool the fluid to specific limits at various points, as described elsewhere in the changing ATF thread.
Don't wait. Get this done before the car runs out of warranty. The dealer charged VW for 20 quarts to do the full mullti-flush procedure and said the new ATF is $55 per quart!! Do the math.
It helped to be able to tell the dealer "I have a problem and here is the Tech Tip that solves it." Believe I was the first case they had to deal with. Consequence of Phaetons being so rare. Excellent service department, but I wonder how long it would have taken them to find the solution by themselves. Subsequent owners should benefit.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: transmission question (george777)*

Slajan,
If you click on the second V8 transmission post listed by Michael above, you will find my posts related to how a problem similar to yours was fixed on my car, including a post from my Phaeton tech Larry clarifying the procedure he followed. In a nutshell, it involved flushing the transmission and filling with a different spec fluid and "flashing" new software. The outcome was outstanding: even now, about a year and 10kmiles later, the transmission shifts very smoothly and all vibrations/shudders have been eliminated. I highly recommend thifanos procedure.
Ste


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: transmission question (Motorista)*

*Archival Note:* tangentially related discussion - V8, noise engine, VW says it's okay


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Transmission Shudder 5th Gear*

I have been having intermittent shudders when the transmission would shift into 5th gear. Have been asking the dealer to resolve since the 40k service. During the 70k service the dealer finally was able to duplicate the 5th gear shudder. Stated it was caused by a faulty triptronic switch. 
Switch was replaced and vehicle returned to me. Guess what....same issue......
Here are the issues:
Light acceleration major shudder when the trans shifts into 5th gear.
Medium acceleration minor shudder when the trans shifts into 5th gear.
Heavy acceleration not noticeable. 
When I shift manually - Not noticeable
When I place in sport mode - Same as above (based upon acceleration)
Any thoughts??? Suggestions aside from driving like a lead foot.......?


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## trondsv8 (Nov 17, 2009)

Hello Robert
I have after reading about this shuttering been trying to provoce this on my own car.I think maybe I can feel wery light shutter i upphill , slow speed, and light acceleration. I let my technician try it an he ment that my car had an very normal gearboxbehavior.
In Norway its only 11 Phaetons, so i have nothing to compare with, and therfore on my wisit to the factory on the 10th of dec, I asked some questions about this, but they had nothing useful to tell me about it. 
I told them that some owners had experienced shuttering, but our guide couldnt say anyting about it. 
But, they let me try an brand new Phaeton V8 LWB, so I could compare .
My gearbox felt almost like the new one with exemptions.
1. On my car I have more increase in rpms between gearchanges, than in the new one.
2. I felt a difference when accelererated moderately on the 5 gear. The new one is totally without " vibrations" like i have on mine, so this is maybe the shuttering.
Anyway, I was very pleased to confirm that my car is as thight and nice to drive as the new one , and it was fun to try the new infotainment system.
Im will be aware of any signs of this shuttering, and if, I will like one of the other guys on the forum start with changing the hydoil on the gearbox.
I will keep you uppdated if someting develops. 
Best Regards
trond


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## rgestell (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Take a look at these threads:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2420606
<http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2420606&postid=59635446#59635446>
&postid=59635446#59635446
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2701084
<http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2701084&page=1> &page=1
I've had similar problems. Ended up getting torque converter replaced (before I found the above threads). Seemed to address the issue for about 5000 miles, but I'm getting minor shudder again. Wondering if I need to get the updated software for TCM and ECM controllers. 
Good luck.


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## trondsv8 (Nov 17, 2009)

Thank you.
Most interesting reading , and I will maybe change oil in the gearbox at the next service at 90000 km
rgds
trond


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: (trondsv8)*

Thank you for the information Trond.


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (rgestell)*

After reading all of the links you gave me, I think we have it pinpointed to a 1400-16-1700 rpm shudder. When the car sits over night it will not replicate the problem until the vehicle is at normal operating temp. Once at operating temp, it will duplicate the shudder any time the vehicle is in the 1400-1700 RPM range. Heavy acceleration bypasses the shudder and once at highway speeds it does not appear noticeable.


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Another update: Dealer diagnosed the car, suggested I replace the triptronic switch ...this shot in the dark did not correct problem this I have already shared...
Now I took the vehicle back in armed with the information shared with me by my fellow VWvortexers.........Although the trans performs exactly as the bulletin/Information mentions with no other issues.....I received a call from PCC "researching" and a call from the Dealer saying I have to authorize 3 hours of diagnostic time for $317.41
Am I crazy to think VW should be taking care of this issue related to the 2004 documented information??? I have been complaining of this issue for quite some time over major milestone service levels.......
Any suggestions???










_Modified by dish_dr at 4:24 PM 1-14-2010_


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Robert: 
As you might expect VW does not want to repair anything that still "works." They do not seem to be very concerned with whether it works optimally or as designed. As best I can tell, the CPO warranty is good, but do any of us really know what it covers. I for one, have never seen a CPO contract. My dealer enters the problem/solution in the computer and the VW computer comes back and tells them whether VW will pay or I have to pay. Thus, the deck is stacked against you. Knowing this, I personally would be willing to pay for the diagnostic time if they would inform me what they were looking for and what the final solution would be under the different possible findings. 
I had fits with my transmission while under CPO. It shifted horribly and destroyed the refinement embodied in my Phaeton. I was told this was normal, which I knew was not right - but what could I do. I was getting ready to part with the car and really did not want to. Eventually VW replaced the transmission when it slipped and went into limp mode(error code left). My CPO Touareg has an alternator growl that is horrible when cold and possibly tolerable when warm. I am also getting the same stuff. This is normal. This is slight. I've never had an alternator make this much noise and I'm embarassed to drive people in the car. It bothers my wife so much, she is pushing a little to get rid of it and it's her car. However, does the alternator work? Yes and that's all VW needs to know. 
VW has their business model and it seems to work as they are the biggest automaker in the world. So I don't think they are very concerned about my noisy alternator or your transmission shudder. Just work with them and don't go away and hopefully they'll find a justification to solve your shudder problem.
Good luck.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Jxander)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jxander* »_As best I can tell, the CPO warranty is good, but do any of us really know what it covers... I for one, have never seen a CPO contract...

Hi Jim:
I bought the "Real Driver" extended warranty (the one that is discussed here: The NEW VW RealDriver extended contract), and I read the contract when it arrived. The person who sells most of us our service contracts, Chris at VW of Langhorne in Langhorne, PA, will happily send you a copy of the contract to review prior to purchase. Chris is a straight shooter.
The contract is pretty straightforward and pretty easy to read. Basically, it says that if something BREAKS or *SUDDENLY *FAILS, the warranty will cover it, but if something WEARS OUT, the warranty will not cover it. There are a few systems that are totally excluded (meaning, a part could explode and they still would not touch it), examples include park distance control.
I'm satisfied that my extended warranty (service contract, to use the correct term) gives me good value for money. I'm almost halfway through it, and have never made a claim, which is probably the best outcome that both the owner and the warranty company could ever hope for.
Basically, the warranty provides insurance against catastrophic failure of any major parts on the car. It does not provide any coverage for stuff that could reasonably be expected to 'wear out'... at least, that's how I interpret what I read.
Michael


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael:
I currently have the VW Real Driver extended warranty from Chris on my Touareg and will probably add the same on my Phaeton in the next 6 months. I do have a contract for that one and it is quite clear. I understand that warranty is backed by Fidelity so repairs come out of their pocket. However, I also currently have CPO coverage for both my Phaeton and Touareg. This I believe is backed by VW and repairs are from their coffer. It is the CPO coverage that seems a bit like a black box and I have never seen a real contract only a marketing brochure and the salesman saying it is exactly like the new car warranty. Ha! 
However, it is phrases like "breaks and suddenly fails" that protect the insurer. A shudder in a transmission/torque converter of a Phaeton is unacceptable at moderate miles but may not qualify legally as a broken or failed component as the car does still operate. 
Note I still appreciate my CPO and the Real Driver warranties for Phaetons. They do provide protection against as you say catastrophic failures and other clear failures of many components. However, if you want your Phaeton to operate as it was designed and it is getting some age/miles on it, you will likely have some pretty expensive replacement of parts that have not failed but if left alone will destroy the vehicles qualitative characteristics. So even if you have a warranty, VW or Fidelity will be on good legal grounds if they decline a claim where the part has not truly failed. An intermittent shudder is not a reflection of a failed part. It might be failing. The car drives and everything operates - albeit poorly. Thus, approach VW or Fidelity very carefully in these cases and try shaming them into correcting the flaw.


_Modified by Jxander at 4:55 AM 1-15-2010_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Jxander)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jxander* »_ ...[if] it is getting some age/miles on it, you will likely have some pretty expensive replacement of parts that have not failed but if left alone will destroy the vehicles qualitative characteristics.

I agree, but isn't what you described called (in plainer language) "wear and tear"? For sure, the extended warranty - the Fidelety warranty - excludes wear and tear right off the bat. It is strictly a 'failure and breakage' warranty.
Michael


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I agree, but isn't what you described called (in plainer language) "wear and tear"? 

According to the insurance company, it probably is, but it seems to me that Jim's making a valid, Phaeton-specific point. For a "normal" vehicle, some extra engine noise or an occasional clunk from the suspension probably doesn't make any significant difference to the overall driving experience. However, as we're all well aware, in a Phaeton it does (if it doesn't drive like a Phaeton, there's no point in having it). This is evidently something of which VW is also well aware, and also something it exploits when marketing the vehicle, just take a look at the packaging in the photo of that new vehicle posted yesterday, not to mention the glass factory and all the rest of the sales b/s that comes along with the Phaeton. Which brings us to Jim's point about the CPO warranty. If my understanding is correct, this isn't a "normal" insurance warranty (although that may be the underlying case), it's a warranty administered by VW (at least from the customer's perspective) and sold as a way of promoting the purchase of certified used vehicles, or as a way of first owners to keep their car as if it was still under the original warranty. If VW are serious about their carefully crafted image for the Phaeton, then this warranty really ought to be dealing with problems such as rough transmission shifts, even if it does, ultimately, cost the customer a little more to buy it.


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Jxander)*

Jim,
Thanks for the well wishes..... Don't worry I won't go away. I have nothing but time and 2 other VW's to drive while they "research".
Each timeI have interaction and work done on this issue, I will share my story in the hopes somehow someway the concern gets fixed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_... it seems to me that Jim's making a valid, Phaeton-specific point. For a "normal" vehicle, some extra engine noise or an occasional clunk from the suspension probably doesn't make any significant difference to the overall driving experience. However, as we're all well aware, in a Phaeton it does (if it doesn't drive like a Phaeton, there's no point in having it)...

This is kind of a tough question to evaluate, if one tries to walk a neutral middle path and evaluate what 'reasonable expectations' are from the perspective of all _three _parties involved - the person buying the used car, the dealer selling the used car, and the dealer franchiser (the importer) who is supporting the dealer's sales efforts by providing the CPO warranty.
There are dealers out there, supported by their franchisers, who have done a very good job of keeping the 'premium' aura attached to their used car lot. BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus all have 'premium pre-owned' programs that market their 1 to 3 year old used vehicles (normally these are cars that have only had one previous owner) as being 'good as new', and both the dealers and the franchisers have a track record of supporting these programs well. For example, if you buy a 18 month old BMW 7 series trade-in, and you have a problem with a squeak or rattle during the first few months, they handle that problem in exactly the same way that the would handle it if you had just bought a brand new car from them.
What we seem to be failing to consider, in the case of the Phaeton, is that none of the Phaetons in North America today would qualify for inclusion in any of these premium used car programs operated by BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus, simply because the cars are too old. The newest Phaeton in North America today (a MY 2006 car) is now 4 model years old. The vast majority of Phaetons in North America today (MY 2004 cars) are now 6 model years old, and few if any of those cars are changing hands as 'one-owner' cars. Today, most Phaetons being sold have been owned by at least *two *previous owners. Let's not kid ourselves, these are well and truly 'used cars'. There's another post active on page 1 today entitled "W12 advertised for less than $20K". That's the current state of the market.
VW did do a pretty good job of treating the second owners very well during the period 2007 to 2008, when the bulk of the Phaetons imported to North America were acquired by second owners. I personally recall picking up (ferrying) a gorgeous W12 4 seater for another forum member who paid a premium price to buy a truly premium vehicle. The car had very low miles, and was perfect in every way. Phaeton Customer Care treated this owner as if he bought the car new, and his new dealer (located thousands of miles away) also treated this owner as if he had bought the car new. But, hey, that was in 2007!
I think we need to ask ourselves "What percentage of original selling price did I pay for this vehicle?" If, today, someone pays 50 to 60% of original selling price for a one-owner MY 2006 Phaeton - that being about the average percentage of original selling price that the BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus dealers get for their premium used cars - then yes, that purchaser has a reasonable expectation of premium after sales support. However, if the buyer is paying perhaps 25% of original selling price - that being what most third and fourth-hand Phaetons are changing hands for today - then c'mon, let's be realistic. We're buying third and fourth-hand used cars that are between 4 and 6 years of age, we're not buying premium used cars.
It might, then, be more realistic for the owner to say "OK, I'm getting a really good deal on this 4 to 6 year old top of the line VW (compared to a 4 to 6 year old top of the line BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus), so, I'm going to set aside half of my capital cost savings to look after minor nuisances that the dealer is not willing to look after due to the age and the low selling price of the car.
Michael


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
What we seem to be failing to consider, in the case of the Phaeton, is that none of the Phaetons in North America today would qualify for inclusion in any of these premium used car programs operated by BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus, simply because the cars are too old. 
Michael


Not true for BMW which was my other primary alternative for the Phaeton. BMW warranties their CPO cars for 6 years or 100k miles. Thus a 2004 BMW is just coming off CPO even if miles are pushing 100k. Their new car warranty is 4 years or 50k miles. So the CPO gives you another 2 years like VW and an additional 50k miles versus the 24k miles with VW. 
You mention problem Phaetons with multiple owners & dubious service histories. I doubt these type of cars qualify as CPO vehicles for any manufacturer. The W12 for $20k you mention surely isn't a CPO nor probably eligible for an extended warranty such as Real Driver. When you buy a CPO car from a dealer you expect that they have inspected the car, checked its service history, and believe that it is worthy of CPO coverage. They certainly advertise that they do all these things. If they think one of their off-lease vehicles is a dog, they should send it to the auction and wholesale it. If they think it's a good bet and put their CPO label on it, then they need to step up to the plate and stand behind what they manufactured and have sold two times. 
Now the good news for VW. If a covered part does truly fail while under CPO, you won't have any trouble with VW.  They'll willingly repair it at their cost. The only problem is when your complaint has to do with a component that functions but not well or as designed. Transmission shudders, harsh downshifts, or slight slippage might be some examples. If these do not leave a diagnostic error code, you're probably going to have a fight on your hands and might lose in the end. It's frustrating for owners who purchased a Phaeton for its refinement and find it behaves worse than the neighbor's Camry or Accord - whether it be used or new. 
I must also say VW has been good to me - everything considered. I purchased my Phaeton for $26k with 57k miles as a CPO. I would not have bought the car at any price without that warranty. This was July of 2008. The service history was clean. All service was done on or before VW schedule and even tires were through a VW dealer. However, the CPO warranty has covered(note only 1 significant problem)
1, New intake runner vacuum actuator(plastic link was broken) - est cost $500
2. Transmission started shifting poorly - they did a multiple drain and refill of fluid, new filter, and reflash. I was told that I would have to pay as they didn't cover fluids. However, a new fluid not original to the car was ultimately used and based on that, they covered it. est cost $1200.
3. Transmission subsequently slipped or disengaged while travelling on interstate and went into limp mode. Based on this and I assume a diagnostic error code from the event, they replaced the entire transmission. est cost = $10k.
VW probably would have been better off financially to send mine to auction, but they didn't. Do I understand they likely will lose money on my Phaeton - yes. Do I feel that I am expecting too much from them or the car- No. It's just business and they made a bad decision to offer mine as a CPO.
Sorry for the long post.


_Modified by Jxander at 7:24 PM 1-16-2010_


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Jxander)*

Jim, what was the mileage on your car when the harsh shifting started? I suppose it boils down to what is considered a "failure", and whether or not the context of this being a Phaeton is factored into that. With regard to a transmission, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to function as new for at least 100k on a vehicle maintained in accordance with VW's specs. Even my last two GM cars lasted to about 90k before the transmissions got the "GM clunk", and the only real maintenance I did on either of those was oil & trans fluid replacement (the Impala I traded for the Phaeton was probably the cheapest motoring I've ever had, taking into account the depreciation and running costs).


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_Jim, what was the mileage on your car when the harsh shifting started? I suppose it boils down to what is considered a "failure", and whether or not the context of this being a Phaeton is factored into that. With regard to a transmission, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to function as new for at least 100k on a vehicle maintained in accordance with VW's specs. 

I agree that Harsh and erratic shifting was around 65k miles. The fluid exchange and reflash seemed to deal with the gear hunting but accentuated the harsh downshifts tremendously. The poor shifting was somewhat intermittent but never could I drive it for over 10 miles without some shifting incident that was not right. The shifting behavior was bad enough that at first I would not take the car out of town for fear of being stranded hundreds of miles from a Phaeton certified tech. I knew something was wrong and doubted the transmission would last too long as it was. It was going to self destruct at some point. So I was concerned with the loss of refinement, but even more I was concerned about reliability. I finally concluded that VW was not going to become too proactive in dealing with a report of poor shifting. There had to be a true failure. So I drove it and if self-destructed, so be it. So it did finally disengage on the interstate and went into limp mode. Limp mode probably protected it from self destruction. At this point, I suspect an error code was left and based on that they replaced the entire transmission. With my limited knowledge I always thought the initial problem was only in the control part of the transmission - the valve body or the transmission control module - since it would often shift normally. So if it were my problem to pay I would have opted for a fluid exchange and a rebuilt mechatronic unit(combined valve body and TCM). As we know, most shops find it more effective to replace parts rather than rebuild or repair on site. So I did not object when they offered to replace the transmission.


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

I received notification that the DEALER has finally duplicated my 1400-1600 RPM Shudder. They don't recommend trying any of the VW recommended fixes, but rather to just replace the transmission with a new one. I was quoted $8,253 parts and labor.
Any one have any suggestions on HOW I can get the VW Dealer to call VW....read the information you all shared with me and try to flash and update the fluid???????


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dish_dr* »_I received notification that the DEALER has finally duplicated my 1400-1600 RPM Shudder. They don't recommend trying any of the VW recommended fixes, but rather to just replace the transmission with a new one. I was quoted $8,253 parts and labor.
Any one have any suggestions on HOW I can get the VW Dealer to call VW....read the information you all shared with me and try to flash and update the fluid???????









Robert,
They want to play with $8200 of your money? Something doesn't sound right here. What they're recommending is akin to your doctor performing a lobotomy on you the first time you show up in the office with a headache. 
I tend to be more conservative. When mine had a transmission issue, we started with a transmission flush, then a Mechatronics unit and, finally, the transmission. But only after the other two options didn't solve the problem. 
So, there are two schools of thought: (1) we start out small and run the potential to have another trip at additional expense or (2) we take the shotgun approach and just go straight for the whole enchilada.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (chrisj428)*

Chris:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Start simple and move forward with the potential solution set. I will always believe that a mechatronic unit would have solved my transmission problems. However, VW chose to replace the entire unit after unsuccessfully trying the fluid exchange and reflash. I was happy with that since I did not have another round of test driving. But in my case it was VW's money being spent so they were in charge of the decision-making.


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (chrisj428)*

Chris,
Thank you. I agree with you completely. I just got off the phone with PCC. They said they can not and will not assist since I am outside of the powertrain warranty. Even though the issue has been happening for quite some time......nada!!! 
I requested that PCC assist me in getting the dealer to take baby steps and I was told NO







...they do not instruct dealers what to do, how to do it....regardless of the technical information available. 
I guess my next step is to contact the CEO of VW. Unless anyone else has suggestions?????


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Can you not just TELL the dealer what you want them to do??? I can't see how or why they'd object to doing the job in steps, if that's what you want. You're the one with the greenbacks, they're working for you, if they won't do what you ask, take it to someone who will!


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Robert: 
Your problem is different than mine - so I should be careful making recommendations on how to proceed when it is your money. Mine was just erratic shifting initially. I had no shudder. If you do follow the steps noted - a fluid exchange/reflash, replace mechatronic unit, then new transmission - you could spend(est) $1000(fluid) $3000(mechatronic), and $8k+(transmission). That might be a total of $12k+ to solve your issue if you did it piecemeal and had to go all the way to resolve the issue. 
Thus, there is a case to be made to just replace the tranny first thing - especially if the tech has past experience with this issue. On the other hand, you could resolve it for the $1000 fluid change. I just wish VW or ZF would have been more upfront with what lifetime fill really meant. If they were, I believe many of the transmission problems we experience would not exist. However, we would have had higher maintenance costs. 
The price you are getting on a transmission replacement is pretty good, I think. I've seen the rebuilt tranny retailing for around $7k and its a labor intensive task to replace.
Good luck,


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Robert,
Your description of the shudder sounds exactly like the one I had two years ago. The software upgrade / new fluid solution, as I documented elsewhere in this thread, worked perfectly: to this day, 2 yrs later and at over 51kmiles total, the car shifts flawlessly, without ever physically touching the transmission, let alone replacing it. So, if i were you, I would go with the non-invasive procedure, especially if you have to pay out of your own pocket, but I would make sure that your tech follows it to the letter.
Stefano


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dish_dr* »_I requested that PCC assist me in getting the dealer to take baby steps and I was told NO







...they do not instruct dealers what to do, how to do it....regardless of the technical information available. 

Robert,
The PCC cannot instruct a dealer on what to do. They can offer guidance and recommendations. They can also tell a dealer that VW will be participating in a repair which falls outside the normal scope of the warranty. However, they cannot _force_ a dealer to do anything. Dealerships in the US are independently-owned franchises.


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Motorista)*

I am going to speak with the dealer ask them to do what I ask or take it to another dealer and start over. Can you tell me where you took your car? Do you have the steps and or could you email me your detailed work order as a reference point??
[email protected]


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (chrisj428)*

Chris, I understand they can't tell them what to do...but I would think the technical experts at VW Corporate would have some leverage to help instruct the dealer on what needs to be done. The fact the dealer refuses to look at the information shared with me from my fellow Phaeton owners and they refuse to call the VW tech support line .......confuses the hell out of me.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dish_dr* »_Chris, I understand they can't tell them what to do...but I would think the technical experts at VW Corporate would have some leverage to help instruct the dealer on what needs to be done.

This is a job for Tech Line (VTA), not PCC. The technician would take it upon him or herself to make the call. 

_Quote, originally posted by *dish_dr* »_The fact the dealer refuses to look at the information shared with me from my fellow Phaeton owners and they refuse to call the VW tech support line .......confuses the hell out of me.

While dealerships are, justifiably, a little leery any time they hear the words "I read on the internet that..." (Heck -- if it's on the internet, it must be true! I read just the other day that Jaime Lee Curtis is transgendered, Bigfoot exists and Kirstie Alley ate Valerie Bertinelli for brunch last Sunday...two out of three are true, your choice), their refusal (as you state it) to (a) call for assistance and/or (b) approach diagnostics/repairs with the same level of reverence towards your resources as you have, raises a red flag for me. (P.C.: Edit that for me, please -- I can't make it flow.







)


_Modified by chrisj428 at 8:02 AM 1-22-2010_


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (chrisj428)*

After serveral discussions, the dealer has come around stating they finally reached out to VW and now not just one transmission flush but two are recommended. They want to also perform 2 flashes plus charge additional labor for "diagnostic time".
2 trans flush $ 1759.60
2 flashes $210
Diag time $315
Owning a Phaeton - Priceless........
Sorry I couldn't resist.....









Of Course I have asked VW to pick up the tab as this has been an ongoing misdiagnosis issue since the 40k service. 
I have many people involved!! I will keep you all in the loop as this progresses.......Wish me luck!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dish_dr* »_After serveral discussions, the dealer has come around stating they finally reached out to VW and now not just one transmission flush but two are recommended. 

That reluctance to call VW sounds distinctly fishy to me. When I picked mine up the other day after a battery change (which has utterly failed to correct any of the memory problems), I spoke to the tech who worked on it and when I said I didn't think it had cured the problems, his instant reply was that if it hadn't, to bring it back and they'd "call Michigan".


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## dish_dr (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*

The ironic item is your dealer and my dealer must be related. I am not dealer bashing here....but, you would think if the dealer no longer employed the expertise required to service a Phaeton they would send you somewhere where they did.......


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

They've apparently got three qualified techs there, I believe. The service advisor also told me quite clearly when I asked that if the battery didn't solve the problem they wouldn't charge me for it and would put the old one back in. That was several days ago and they still haven't had the car back yet because of a lack of loaner vehicles, so I'm sure I'll have a fight on my hands next week when I insist on having the old battery back.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (dish_dr)*

Robert,
Two flushes (instead of one) are indeed required, plus at least one hour driving at regular speed between the first and second flush: sorry to be redundant but please check my post much earlier in this thread, and My Phaeton Tech Larry's follow up post not long after mine, where he describes what he did to my car. As I already mentioned, the fluid change (to European spec) plus software flash completely cured my problem. So, in this respect at least, your dealer is correct (though I'm surprised it took them so long to enlist VW HQ help).
As for cost, this fluid is quite expensive, and the car uses a fairly large quantity, so the cost quoted, though significant, seems at least partially justified. In my case the cost was covered under the original vehicle warranty so I have no real comparison.
Finally, regarding warranty coverage, it's really between you and VW: it is possible that, by being "nice nice" you might get a contribution towards the full cost out of "good will" but it is rather a long shot given the mileage and age of the car. In sum, the Phaeton is rather complex and demands a slow and methodical approach to maintenance, with a lot of attention to detail and precision. For this reason, assuming that you care about the car and want to keep it a long time, I'd recomemnd taking it to a dealer that can give you a better assurance of excellent, Phaeton-specific service, even if it is far from your home town. In my case, for example, though I now work in Boston it does not bother me to go back to Pittsburgh for service: this is where I bought the car and I know the tech, Larry quite well: I respect his expertise and like his approach to diagnosis and repair, and am willing to pay the premium that such expertise commands. 
Stefano


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*

Martin,
Assuming that 
A) you are referring to your left (or comfort) battery, and
B) your old battery is the one originally installed in your car (you can verify this easily but checking the manufacture date stamped on the negative pole) 
you are much better off with a new one. Based on age alone, your old battery was at the end of its service life, and cannot be expected to last much longer even if recharged. I suspect that the remaining gremlins are related to a non-orderly reset of the various codes after replacement, but even if they were more serious replacing the battery after almost six years is a necessary step in my opinion.
Stefano


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Motorista)*

Stefano,
My original thought was the battery because of the age of the car, but when I tested it, it was putting out 12.53 volts. I know it's not a comprehensive test, but it was nowhere near as low as some of the other voltages reported. I also looked for a date stamp and there didn't appear to be one, despite it being a VW battery. Anyway, I've just got off the phone with the dealer, after changing that battery and resetting all the faults, they're still seeing a whole boatload of other start up faults. They now want to change the starter battery, and during the conversation about the car balancing the load in the event that one battery isn't putting out enough juice, he said that the tech had told him the two batteries are identical. I nearly went pop when he said that. He assures me that the tech is certified on the Phaeton, but it doesn't give me much confidence in anything they're telling me or any bills they're presenting me with. I asked the advisor to look up the price of the two batteries and then explain to me how one was 2.5 times the cost of the other if they're identical. He offered to put in the other battery without charging me the labour on it.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*

I would definitely stay away from this dealer! The charitable explanantion is that something (a lot really!) got lost in translation between the Phaeton tech and the service adviser you are dealing with. But even so, I would not be comfortable entrusting them to replace the starter battery: as Michael posted in one of his impeccably detailed threads elsewhere in thsi forum, pulling that (the right side) battery up is rather difficult and there's a risk of inadvertently breaking the negative terminal at the fender. If I were you I would try another dealer and insist in meeting and speaking with the Phaeton tech him (or her-)self, to ensure they are reasonably familiar with the car.
By the way, I am not convinced that start up fault codes could be caused by a depleted start battery. As pointed out elsewhere in this forum, the car's load management circuit automatically switches to, or parallels, the comfort battery when the start one is low or fails, so, for as long as the comfort battery is new and strong, no fault codes should be generated. On the other hand, I'm beginning to suspect the "new" comfort battery itself: i'm sure it is new, but if it is relatively old stock and has not been recharged the outcome could be similar to the old one.
Good luck.
Stefano


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Motorista)*

Yes, I've read all the battery threads, and I'm far from convinced that the new starter battery is going to help, and I wasn't slow in pointing this out to them today. Their "theory" is that the starter battery doesn't have enough juice to crank the engine and takes some from the comfort battery, thereby reducing the current available for the memory function. Having read the battery threads, this does make some sense, but it begs the question of why they didn't check both batteries last week.
As far as them not doing the battery change, he agreed to waive the labour charge, so if there's a risk of breakage I might be better off staying with them. Either way, it's too late now.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*

Although this theory does make some sense, as you point out, I doubt that it applies in your case. Consider:
- If the comfort battery is new and fully charged, even if it is called upon to start the car, it should have plenty of energy and would be recharged by the "generator" (VW-speak for alternator) while the car is running.
- So it seems unlikely that a new and fully charged comfort battery would drop significantly below minimum voltage even if the starter battery is fully depleted. 
In any case, if the starter battery is the original one you are probably better off replacing it anyway. You might want to show them the picture of the ground connector that is relatively delicate, though. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in one of the battery threads in this forum.
Stefano


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (Motorista)*

I agree, it's unlikely. I'll find out tomorrow, they've already changed the second battery. Pissed as I am at having to fork out for two new batteries that were doing their job, I knew I was going to have to replace them before long anyway. They told me today that there were no longer any "low voltage codes" in the system, so I'll be taking the laptop with me to make sure.
What's bothering me now is what to try next. I'm assuming this isn't going to change anything, and I think I have to find some way to force them to do the software update, which is probably going to need a phone call to the PCC line. And what use is a platinum warranty if you have to spend a couple of grand fixing guesses before they replace a faulty part that the warranty will pay for??


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Another UPDATE Re: Transmission Shudder 5th Gear (invisiblewave)*

Both batteries replaced, memory functions good so far. Various errors still showing on the scan though.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Attached is a German language service note about software versions for the 6 speed that might be of interest. I do not know whether it applies to transmissions installed in North American cars.

Michael


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## Breezzze (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi Michael
Please help me. Is there a way to reset adaptations on 6-speed 09l transmission 2004 V8 Phaeton if last firmware allready installed?
Dealer says that it not possible.




PanEuropean said:


> Attached is a German language service note about software versions for the 6 speed that might be of interest. I do not know whether it applies to transmissions installed in North American cars.
> 
> Michael


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