# ITB Poll, Pros & Cons



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

Looking for info on several ITB setups. Pros, cons, and pricing if available. Also, what sizing is going to be best for this build? Goal is 200whp on 93.
Engine setup is as follows:
16v head, Stage 2 port by Rodney (RHussjr)
Full Supertech valvetrain
TT 276 cams (most likely)
12:1 83.5 or 84mm (possibly lower CR)
Scat Rods
Stock Forged ABA crank


_Modified by VWn00b at 8:55 PM 8-27-2008_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*

FYI - Hayward sells Jenvey ITB's (I bought mine from him, Lance is great to deal with.) 
You will need more than 12:1 compression, probably >13:1 and you will most definitely need a solid lifter camshaft with 300 plus degrees duration.
You must balance the reciprocating assembly - the rods, crank, flywheel, IM shaft to get the rpm you will need smoothly and safely.

Edited - it may be possible on the 16v but you will have to tune it really and will still need the large cams and a head that will flow them + compression.



_Modified by WolfGTI at 10:15 AM 8-28-2008_


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (WolfGTI)*

is this for a 16v? 
if you made 200whp on an 8v running all-motor on 93, I would eat my hat.

specifics, please


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (kenny_blankenship)*

Sorry. I forgot to put the 16v in there, so yes, 16v.


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## bowagon (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*

200whp is possible if the headwork is quality. I think there is someone on here that is running near or at that # on a 16v that Collin @ Techtonics did the headwork for and he is running DCOE 45's. It boils down to headwork and tuning...same tune that is sung over and over.










_Modified by bowagon at 8:35 PM 8-27-2008_


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (bowagon)*

Yea, tuning is the one thing that is going to hurt around here. I don't have alot of options.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*

Having done it, I wouldn't mess around with doing GSXR's again.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Having done it, I wouldn't mess around with doing GSXR's again.

I agree, sort of. If you have good fab skills, or have a buddy with good fab skills, you can do a nice setup using Bike ITBs, and it's fairly cheap. If you don't, then don't bother with it if you can afford a nicer set.
If the UTSR/Extrudabody setup was available early last year, I would've went that route instead. The AE86 setup doesn't look bad either.
What's your budget?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (need_a_VR6)*

I got a set OBX throttle bodies.
The goal is a minimum 300whp, on 93 octane.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I would like to spend somewhere between $1000-1500 for the ITBs
Billy, if I had a K20/24 then I would be shooting for 300whp...its been done before, however on 93 I don't think so.
I don't see why I wouldn't be able to hit 200whp. Menda is making just under 200whp on his 20/20 build running MS and pump gas I believe. My setup would be fairly similar, minus the extra 5 valves and bigger cams.
I've actually found a distributor for TWM on honda-tech that can get me a 16v setup for just under $1700, which I wouldn't mind as I know they are pretty good.
Who here has an AE86 setup running and dynoed?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Billy, if I had a K20/24 then I would be shooting for 300whp...its been done before, however on 93 I don't think so.

I was 1/2 kidding, I have a vw/audi engine with an time slip goal in mind.
That being said I know "what power it will take" to get me there. I have been looking at he OBX throttles though, just to see who bites.

_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_I don't see why I wouldn't be able to hit 200whp. Menda is making just under 200whp on his 20/20 build running MS and pump gas I believe. My setup would be fairly similar, minus the extra 5 valves and bigger cams.

I really don't see why you couldn't hit 200whp, I never doubted that.
I need to make sure I eclipse that magic number myself.
I am well aware of a few 20v builds. I was well on my way to building one a few years ago. I couldn't justify it, so I chose to ditch it for a complete ABF.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_That being said I know "what power it will take" to get me there. I have been looking at he OBX throttles though, just to see who bites.

I've been looking at those on ebay. I'm pretty sure they would work as long as the port spacing was the same. If thats the case then all you would need to do would be to cut off the honda flange, and weld on the VW one. I know people hate most OBX stuff, but they do have some decent parts. Hard to overlook the prices they have on most stuff too.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_as long as the port spacing was the same.

Yes, they are close enough. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Yes, they are close enough. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

hmm...I'm very interested in this now.
If they are close enough to port match then I can see it happening.
OBX bodies are only $800 on ebay.
What is the port spacing on the 16v head?


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

Here are some detailed pics of the OBX setup for a B16 or B18C R
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors....m245


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

Be prepared to spend some coin








As Mendra has stated, it'll take somer pretty serious cams, big comp, big head work to get there. 276's aren't going to get you there...
Take it from someone who knows a thing or two about a 16v. 


_Modified by Fast929 at 4:17 PM 8-28-2008_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_If they are close enough to port match then I can see it happening.
What is the port spacing on the 16v head?

Oh yeah, it's close, trust me on that one...
Do what I did, pick up an intake manifold gasket and have a see for yourself. It's only $6.00 to have an excelent visual, then if you decide to move forward it can be used as a template for a custom flange.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I got a set OBX throttle bodies.
The goal is a minimum 300whp, on 93 octane.









Those are Yamaha refurbished (4A-GE throttle bodies).Very good buy for someone wanting to get a new set of ITB's that are fairly large @ 48mm and 45mm respectively.
The AE86 never came with ITB's or the 20V 4A-GE.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Wizard-of-OD)*

Hey Issam,
Which set is which (size wise)? Black tops are 48's right?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_Hey Issam,
Which set is which (size wise)? Black tops are 48's right?

Blacktops are 48mm opening tapering into a 45mm plate.Silvertops are 45mm opening tapering into a 42mm plate.
The OBX units are listed as the blacktop units allthough you wont know until you disassemble it.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Yamaha refurbished.

Well, that's good to know.
I don't think I will pull the trigger, if I did that what I've eyed up. It does seem like a few events may lift the no ITB's regulation. If find myself scratching my head in need of power I may have to try them, even though I don't want to. So my intake manifold better get the job done!


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (billyVR6)*

I like my TWM's, granted the manifold they supply is complete garbage. *I'm running an 8V, DCOE spaced TWM's. I'd hope the casting on the 16V complete units is better than their manifold casting, or I'd go with Jenvey's.








Nice part about these, is that i can put them on anything that someone makes a DCOE carb manifold for.

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view











_Modified by secondgen at 7:11 AM 8-30-2008_


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## brownhound (Mar 22, 2007)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (secondgen)*

My TWM 2000 Series 48mm ITBs.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (brownhound)*

Man those are nice.
Where did you order? How much?


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## brownhound (Mar 22, 2007)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*

The local shop that does all my work is a TWM dealer. He offers great prices. IM me if you'd like me to check into his current pricing. Aloha, Jeff


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## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_What is the port spacing on the 16v head?

88mm


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (zornig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zornig* »_
88mm

















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DigiFaNt (Aug 28, 2001)

I think you will be able to hit your mark or realllllly close to it. My friend and I have a motor down at the shop what dyno'd at about 182whp on a basic tune on megasquirt. its now on 034 and awaiting tuning. and the cams are not wild, nor does it have 12:1 compression. It does have headwork and I think 266 cams. unknown brand.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (DigiFaNt)*

There have been a few ABF's to roll in stateside that kind of back up what you mentioned. It really does prove that a good tune with a worked head are crucial. I was barking up the 16v tree not to long ago, and it really did seem like many get caught up in duration and compression.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_There have been a few ABF's to roll in stateside that kind of back up what you mentioned. It really does prove that a good tune with a worked head are crucial. I was barking up the 16v tree not to long ago, and it really did seem like many get caught up in duration and compression.

The two go hand in hand








And I'd like to see 182whp with 266's. Dyno sheet? 
Headwork is where all the power is made though. I'll agree there. When your looking for all out power in any NA application, it's all about the combination of the parts. In order to make big power, you need to spin rev's. To spin rev's and make power, you need big cams (larger lift for flow, more duration for exhaust gas scavenging). To run big cams, you need more static compression (dynamic compression or cylinder pressure goes down with larger cams and more overlap).
Pretty simple actually. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Fast929 at 1:32 PM 9-2-2008_


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## e-clown (Nov 2, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*

what about 50 mm redline itb'



ABA block with 84.5 pistons autotech 2.1 crank and if i remember right 144mm
pauter rods with 276 cams and 34mm ferra valves
feels sweet have never dyno it so i have no clue on ##'s


_Modified by e-clown at 9:33 PM 9-2-2008_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (e-clown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_
Headwork is where all the power is made though. I'll agree there.

Trying telling that to the 1.8T/ 2.0FSIT guys.
It takes them about 10 years to come around....

_Quote, originally posted by *e-clown* »_
ABA block with 84.5 pistons autotech 2.1 crank and if i remember right 144mm pauter rods

If it was ABA then it had 159mm rods and Autotech 2.1 crank = OEM TDI crank


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Wizard-of-OD)*

Small update:
-Rodney says he should have the head done sometime next week.
-Still need to decide on which pistons
-Still need to decide on engine management
-Probably going to get the TWM throttle bodies. Sourcing a set of AE101/111 bodies is harder than I expected.
Everything else I pretty much know what I'm going to run and how.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*

What are you considering for management? MS would be quick, and there are quite a few ITB 16V maps out there already, would only need minor tweaking....


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Trying telling that to the 1.8T/ 2.0FSIT guys.
It takes them about 10 years to come around....
If it was ABA then it had 159mm rods and Autotech 2.1 crank = OEM TDI crank









I know.... Kids








I gots some too...


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (secondgen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *secondgen* »_What are you considering for management? MS would be quick, and there are quite a few ITB 16V maps out there already, would only need minor tweaking....

MS would work just fine I suppose. Mendra has had good luck with his. I'm also looking into 034 and Lugtronic (VEMS)
Its still up in the air right now. The main problem is finding a tuner in my area that is willing to work with a system they most likely haven't seen before.


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## e-clown (Nov 2, 2005)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_
The main problem is finding a tuner in my area that is willing to work with a system they most likely haven't seen before.

*u can say that again * 
i am running dta e48


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Fast929)*

Whats up with your oil squirters?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (secondgen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *secondgen* »_ MS would be quick, and there are quite a few ITB 16V maps out there already, would only need minor tweaking....

I would say it would take more then *minor* tweaking! I've tuned a few ITB cars on MS and every one is so vastly different then the next that it's almost easier to start from scratch on each then to try and adapt something. The hardest part about ITBs is getting accel to behave correctly, and that's just practice to get it done in a timely manner.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: ITB Poll, Pros & Cons (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Whats up with your oil squirters?









What do you mean???? There's plenty of room for them.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_In order to make big power...

This is an honest question, but what really is considered to be big power?
I've tried to nail down, or consider a lot of what you mention with everything. There are some built engines out there that fall short, way short when you look at the build sheet. Then there are some mild builds that do well, and the some that do much better than the masses would expect.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
This is an honest question, but what really is considered to be big power?
I've tried to nail down, or consider a lot of what you mention with everything. There are some built engines out there that fall short, way short when you look at the build sheet. Then there are some mild builds that do well, and the some that do much better than the masses would expect.


For any VW 16v 4 cylinder motor, I consider anything making 200+whp in a streetable trim, big power. For an all out race motor, you might/could possibly build a 250whp motor but I don't consider it real driveable nor do they last.
I'll be pretty pissed if my build doesn't at least net 200whp. 16v's are just a lot of work to make power. The heads don't flow like honda's so the power isn't as easy to extract. I'd bet pink slips, my build here with the VW motor would net 300+whp in a 16b. No question.
To reference your comment about some mild build putting out pretty solid numbers and some big build dissapointing, I think it comes down to this. You can build a 170'ish whp motor on stock rods and pistons with proper care but netting those last 30hp is just realllllllyyyy tough.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_those last 30hp.

Point well taken, and goes hand in hand with my thoughts on the 12v VR6.
Achieve 195/210whp sure, but to jump up to what I call the next level (street or race, it doesn't matter) is really hard to justify doing it.
For me a least.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 12:01 PM 9-3-2008_


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

I would agree. 12v VR is a perfect example and it's root cause for lack of power production above a certain point is the same as the 16v...
For a couple K, you could build a real nice 170whp NA motor. Or, for the nearly 12k I've got, you shoot for 220whp








Not the most cost effective. But, for me, it's to prove to myself it can be done....


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_For a couple K, you could build a real nice 170whp NA motor. Or, for the nearly 12k I've got, you shoot for 220whp









Damn man, 12k on the engine set up.








I certainly do hope you do snag 220whp, at the least.
Flip flop you power and dollar figures, that's what I need to hit my goals.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

I'd bet I have nearly 4k invested into the head...








Not the most cost effective way to go about it... lol


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_I'd bet I have nearly 4k invested into the head...









What's the set up?
5mm convertion?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_I'd bet I have nearly 4k invested into the head...








Not the most cost effective way to go about it... lol

It may be too early to ask this question, but if you had to do it over again, investing $4K into the head, would you rather have done a 20V head instead of a 16V head?
I've got an ABA motor sitting here, and both 16V and 20V (AEB) heads, and am undecided which way to go (NA with ITBs)


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

I've actually just got supertech valvetrain in this head. Solid lifters and 300* cams. If I could do it again, I would have gone straight to 5mm stems and oversize (probably 34mm) valves.

I prefer the 16v head because I can get bigger lift cams. AEB works and works well but it's more expensive to build and NA parts (cams in particular) are limited. I think you can make similar power on both provided your not afraid to get your hands dirty.
That's why I chose to go with the 16v head.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_That's why I chose to go with the 16v head.

I will second that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Fast what is your goal for this motor? I wouldn't mind solid lifter but I'm not ready for the upkeep they require.
I'm also going to be going with full Supertech valvetrain, however cams I haven't chosen yet. I'm thinking TT 276, or CAT 275 or 283


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

Street car








Might see some track duty too.








Solids are a lot of work. Expensive. Time consuming. But critical with my cams. Can't get away with well over .500" lift with hydros. Couple this with some of the other stuff I've got going on in this head and it's either going to work and fail gloriously!!!
Honestly, a lot of this project is technology/theory development for me. I've got some concepts in my head and I'm using this as my test bed. We'll see how it all plays out. lol

_Modified by Fast929 at 2:53 PM 9-3-2008_


_Modified by Fast929 at 2:54 PM 9-3-2008_


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Sounds like it should be a good build.
My build will be daily as well, with, hoping for, several track days durning the year.
I've also decided that I'm going to have the chambers, valve faces, and piston tops thermal barrier coated, and the skirts are going to be coated as well.
Most likely I will go with Swaintech, but I'm looking into local companies that can do it so I can save on shipping.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (zornig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zornig* »_









This should be on it's way to me shortly








Jim does reallllll goooooddddd http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Fast929)*

Nice.
I really wanted to run the AE101/111 stuff, but I had too hard of a time finding throttle bodies online.
We can compare numbers once both our motors are running, whenever that happens


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

I'm sure Issam could source you something.
Worth an e-mail/PM. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I ended up getting my black tops a few years ago directly from Japan. Showed up in nearly new condition (minus TPS cable). Really nice units.


_Modified by Fast929 at 7:11 PM 9-3-2008_


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## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Fast929)*

you can catch them on ebay once in a while.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (zornig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zornig* »_you can catch them on ebay once in a while.

Yea...I've been trying.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

Check the classifieds on MR2OC.com, I've seen a bunch of sets go through there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bowagon (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Nice.
I really wanted to run the AE101/111 stuff, but I had too hard of a time finding throttle bodies online.


Shoot this guy a note, I got my blacktops from him. He may have some more. Nice stuff and easy to deal with.
<[email protected]>


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (secondgen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *secondgen* »_Check the classifieds on MR2OC.com, I've seen a bunch of sets go through there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

or club 4A-GE.
Dont pay more than 160US/set.
Speaking of ITB's - who wants a nasty 8v?


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
or club 4A-GE.
Dont pay more than 160US/set.
Speaking of ITB's - who wants a nasty 8v?

















That's not nice. I have an 8V soft spot.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_...and it's either going to work and fail gloriously!!!

I keep telling myself this is going to be 'exactly' what I needed, or be a complete and total failure.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Something I stumbled upon tonight.When I had my Blacktop I spent MONTHS looking for the elusive Blitz intake plenum for there 4A-GTE kit,never ONCE saw it until tonight







:


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Nice.
I bet those Blitz manifolds cost an arm and a leg.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Nice.
I bet those Blitz manifolds cost an arm and a leg.

The entire turbo kit was roughly 14,000US give or take.Not bad for KKK garbage and overly huge wastegates


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Wizard-of-OD)*

I aquired a set of blacktop ITB's today. Thanks to Mike (bowagon) for giving me the email to the guy he bought his from.
Should be shipping out tomorrow sometime. After that, its just waiting for Jim to get his manifolds in. In the meantime I'll be getting the block bored and ordering all the Supertech valvetrain.
I'll post pics when I get the throttle bodies.


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## bowagon (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm glad it worked out for you. I'm waiting on my manifold from Jim as well, he shipped it last week, should be here tomorrow according to UPS. I'll put up some pictures as soon as I get it. I took my throttles apart and got them all cleaned up and ready to mount on Jim's manifold.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (bowagon)*

You must have gotten one of the last manifolds he had. I talked to him about recently and its going to be another 4-6 weeks until the next batch.
Not a big deal, as the motor won't be ready until later this year hopefully.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Got my throttle bodies yesterday. Need a good cleaning but otherwise they are in pretty good shape.


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