# Oil 5w-30 ok instead of 5w-40?????



## Jettn1 (Jun 9, 2010)

Here we go and I have searched like crazy and read on the oil and lube forum the recommended oils for 502.00........I could not get anywhere 5w-40 Castrol, so I got 5w-30 Castrol Edge, the car seems to perform better than it did before, after changing to this oil. The stealership changed it the last time (after they had installed new camshaft, follower, and HPFP) and I didn't ask what they used. My 2.0t FSI motor has 71k miles on it, and the temps this time of year are anywhere from 10 degrees (seldom) to 50 degrees, safe to say 30-35. TIA for any help.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

It's not just the oil viscosity that's important, it's also the oil chemistry. As long as the oil you use is VW 502 certified, a 5W-30, 0W-30, 5W-40 or 0W-40 will work just fine. FWIW, there are numeorus online suppliers of VW approved 5W-40 oils such as ECS Tuning. Mobil 1 0W-40 is a Euro formula and excellent VW approved oil that is available at numerous retailers.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

:thumbup:


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Yep, well I put Edge 5w-30 in my 2.0 TSI a few days ago. Drained fresh dealer Syntec 5w-40 to do so. 5w-40 is very thick in cold, which is bad for turbo apps. This is the reason for the evolution of 0w-30 and 0w-40 oils, however 5w-30 synth is thinner than all in the cold, near zero F, about 1/2 as thick as 5w-40.

Edge is likely the same formula as the VW spec SLX Pro OE anyway. All the new VW 504 oils ARE 5w-30s, ftr. A consensus is forming around Edge being the best of the thin 30 weight synthetics.

It worked great in my friend's 1.8t, at a decent interval.











5w-30 synth is a great choice for winter, and seems fine in hot weather too. Thinner oils simply protect better now because of their improved additives. 


I'm sure you're aware of the issues w/FSI, so I won't get into it. I'm doing a UOA in april that'll I'll be sharing. 

In the meantime, if you want another oil to try that isn't expensive and is as good as anything if not better, Mobil 1 High Miles, all the weights have the premium generic Euro specs, A5 and A3, like Edge does.

BTW- my engine is running great now and was good on Quaker State Synth 10w-30, another sleeper oil.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Doing awesome in single digit F weather. :thumbup:


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## slowbluVW (Oct 15, 2002)

Try to find Valvoline SYN Power 5W40, Mobil 1 0W40 or do what most do, just run Shell Rotella T6 5W40. The Valvoline 5W40 is kinda hard to find but the Mobil 1 can be found at any Autozone and the Shell can be found at any Walmart. Autozone also carries the Castrol Syntec 5W40 too.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Shell Rotella T Synth 5w-40 is def the easiest 5w-40 to find, you just need to look in the truck oil section with the 15w-40 HD oils. 

If you see below 0f temps, I suggest you first test some 5w-40 in the freezer next to any 5w-30 and compare how thick the 5w-40 really is.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

AudiJunkie said:


> If you see below 0f temps, I suggest you first test some 5w-40 in the freezer next to any 5w-30 and compare how thick the 5w-40 really is.


You're scaring me -- I live in Wisconsin. 

But this seems counter-intuitive to me: shouldn't the 5W rating of each oil yield a very similar cold-temperature pumpability? Cold is the reason I started using Mobil-1 0W40 in my previous Passat 1.8T. I have thought long and hard about briefly using it again in my 2.0 TSI during the coldest months of winter, even though I know it's not the best oil for this motor. However, in winter the car is generally driven fairly gently in mostly urban driving situations (it's not like you can flog the car when it's snowy and icy a lot of the time).


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

*AudiJunkie's post is incorrect again...* He is technically clueless on oils and posts all sorts of complete nonsense. He does NOT understand that a 5W-30 and 5W-40 oil have the same 5W COLD temp pumping viscosity rating and that the "30" or "40" refers to the HOT viscosity @ 212 F. In addition if you look at the SAE hot viscosity requirements for a "30" or "40" weight oil they can both be 12.50 cSt according to SAE J300 oil viscosity grading thus a "30" and "40" oil could be "virtually" identical in viscosity.

Just ignore AudiJunkie. He's doing a horrible disservice to people who want accurate technical information on engine oils. VW specifically recommends 5W-40 oil for all climates, year round. You should not believe any posts that AudiJunkie makes as they are technically baseless.

http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/...toepfer_understanding_motor_oil_viscosity.pdf


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## 787B (Aug 21, 2010)

*Really?*

Why do the rest of us have to put up with this?


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*you don't*



787B said:


> Why do the rest of us have to put up with this?


according to audijunk he is the only correct source. he can paste a chart or a graph and quote oil specs. etc. unfortunately, he hasn't the sense the lord allowed a goose.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

787B said:


> Why do the rest of us have to put up with this?


Stupid doesn't need a reason. :thumbdown:



sbachmeier said:


> You're scaring me -- I live in Wisconsin.



Like I said, a home test is worth a thousand, umm, graphs. 












5w-30 can actually be thinner than 0w-30.

Talking and knowing what you are talking about are two different things.:facepalm:

Same with reading and understanding, two different things.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

TechMeister said:


> VW specifically recommends 5W-40 oil for all climates, year round. You should not believe any posts that AudiJunkie makes as they are technically baseless.












:laugh:


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

I went ahead and did some calculations for my friends here. 

At -13f, a cold winter morning in the northern states....

Mobil 1 5w-40 9630cSt

Shell RTS 5w-40 6497cSt

Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 3739cSt

Castrol Edge 5w-30 3312cSt 

Edge 0w-20 1287cSt 



http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html


10,000cSt is (imo) the definite floor for cold starting, esp a turbo. 

I shoot for 5000cSt. Remember, as you drive off and until the oil (not water) is fully warmed, like 10 miles /15 min, overly thick oil is a burden on the engine for fuel consumption and does create excess wear. 

The vastly reduced FLOW is not good for the turbo bearings at all, they hot spot and fry right away because there isn't enough oil flowing over them to carry away the heat. Same thing goes for journal bearings. Even though pressure reads high, flow is what an engine requires. Overly thick oil builds great pressure, so dopey mechanics think it's great, but it's not. Too bad we don't have flow gauges for engines because that's a better indicator of the physical property of the lube. We don't even get oil temp gauges anymore, go figure.

I do a lot of short trip driving, so correcting the visc I use for winter duty is a good move. My wife drives 2-3 miles to work every day. Her oil likely doesn't make it past +125f, guesstimated 3-4x thicker than normal operating temp. Her Astra specs 5w-40 in Europe, dino 5w-30 in USA...she's using Havoline DS 5w-20. No doubt it's a good choice, it works great. Just came off German Syntec 0w-30...her summer oil.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

5w40 + Canadian winter = NASTY valve tick upon start up. 5w30 cured this. :thumbup: I run 5w30 through the summer and its fine, even on the 30+ degree days. Now if I was in Mexico or southern Texas in the summer, maybe a 40 weight is a good choice.


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

AudiJunkie said:


> I went ahead and did some calculations for my friends here.
> The vastly reduced FLOW is not good for the turbo bearings at all, they hot spot and fry right away because there isn't enough oil flowing over them to carry away the heat. Same thing goes for journal bearings. Even though pressure reads high, flow is what an engine requires. Overly thick oil builds great pressure, so dopey mechanics think it's great, but it's not. Too bad we don't have flow gauges for engines because that's a better indicator of the physical property of the lube. We don't even get oil temp gauges anymore, go figure.
> 
> I do a lot of short trip driving, so correcting the visc I use for winter duty is a good move. My wife drives 2-3 miles to work every day. Her oil likely doesn't make it past +125f, guesstimated 3-4x thicker than normal operating temp. Her Astra specs 5w-40 in Europe, dino 5w-30 in USA...she's using Havoline DS 5w-20. No doubt it's a good choice, it works great. Just came off German Syntec 0w-30...her summer oil.


vastly reduced flow? BTW i live in canada. the best oil is definitely a 5W40 castrol. it is way more important what the oil will do at hotter temperatures if you are talking about turbos. how can there be a hot spot when the engine is cold and the turbo hasnt heated up. you are probably one of those people who get in fire it up and drive away without letting it warm up. oil is not going to compensate for stupidity. if its turbo you HAVE to let it warm up when its really cold. just common sense and physics. lol:screwy:


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

AudiJunkie-

Your statements and conclusions are so baseless as to be complete nonsense. Your conclusions are based on your opinion - NOT facts. The data you posted does not even support your conclusions.

The SAE determines oil pumpablity based on J300 test not by placing oil in the freezer. What oil to use has nothing to do with if you have a turbo or not. Your nonsense about "hot spots" and other foolishness shows you have no clue on the subject and you're trying to B.S. people.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*are you sure?*



AudiJunkie said:


> I went ahead and did some calculations for my friends here.
> 
> At -13f, a cold winter morning in the northern states....
> 
> ...


:screwy::screwy:


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*audijunk*

first, the best way to warm an engine up is drive off under moderate load and moderate rpm. 

second, the turbo's are water cooled, the oil may carry away some heat, but the coolant does the bulk of the cooling. most damage occures because the bearings can coke the oil after shutdown when there is no coolant flow on some models, although some have electric water pumps to circulate the water after shutdown to prevent cokeing. 

third, the oil in a vw is cooled by a coolant to oil heat exchanger. if the coolant is warmed up to operating temperature the oil will be also. the coolant operates off the hot side of flow and is 195f year round as long as the thermostat works. 

finally, you make everything way to complicated


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

gmikel said:


> first, the best way to warm an engine up is drive off under moderate load and moderate rpm.
> 
> second, the turbo's are water cooled, the oil may carry away some heat, but the coolant does the bulk of the cooling. most damage occures because the bearings can coke the oil after shutdown when there is no coolant flow on some models, although some have electric water pumps to circulate the water after shutdown to prevent cokeing.
> 
> ...


 i respectfully agree with all of this EXCEPT the best way to warm up an engine is not to drive off under moderate load. ok.... think of it this way, if the snow is not melting off your car it means that the car is still cold... right? other parts like accessories alternator a/c pump and other metal parts of the car will still be cold and if you are trying to get the ENGINE warm quickly you risk breaking something because with two parts at different temperatures you have different expansion rates and well especially plastic parts like to break in canadian winters haha. oh, and there is increased idle when the car is cold so that is moderate load. let it run 5-10 minutes when it is really cold. side benefit is you have time to clean the car off if necessary. safer for everyone. my 2 cents anyways.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Agree with gmikel on this. Letting your car warm up at idle is the slowest way to warm it up and contributes significantly to fuel dilution in the oil.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

harmankardon35 A 

gmikel C 

TechMeister F 

VeeDoubleYouGuy D


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

saaber2 said:


> Agree with gmikel on this. Letting your car warm up at idle is the slowest way to warm it up and contributes significantly to fuel dilution in the oil.


 1- may be slower but it is better. ever heard that 90% of the wear on an engine is on startup? turn the pistons faster when the oil hasn't fully circulated to the top of the cams and increased wear is what you get (proportional to increased RPM). 

2- there is no way around fuel dilution in oil that is why you have to change oil more frequently in winter. cars run rich in the cold. thats obvious.


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

AudiJunkie said:


> 5w-40 is very thick in cold, which is bad for turbo apps.
> This is the reason for the evolution of 0w-30 and 0w-40 oils


 1- the opposite is true turbos get very hot you need a heavy oil that won't break down. 

2- wasn't 0w30 created for energy conserving and hybrid applications?


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

turbos get red hot. they are without a doubt the hottest thing attached to the engine. they need a thicker oil! what does synthetic oil do better than conventional oil? it resists chemical breakdown. from what? heat. turbos spin 2-3 times the RPM of the pistons and maybe more. that friction causes heat. that is why if you read your owners manual a vw engineer has said to use 5w40. if that is not available and only in cold weather you CAN use 5w30. vw engineers have engineered that car for 5w40.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

first, you're mostly right, 90% of wear does occure on startup, but thats over once it fires up.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*i hit the wrong key*

second, the oil needs to be change more frequently in winter if you make short trips and don't run it at operating temp for any extended period. 

third, vw specifies 5w40 because of the driving habits in europe, i.e., the autobahn. at 70 mph you don''t need very much horsepower, at 120 you do, that works everything much harder. 

finally, the heat in a turbo is why synthetic oil is specified. it ismuch better able to withstand high temperatures. it's not really a better lubricant other than it's heat resistance.


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

first, you're mostly right, 90% of wear does occure on startup, but thats over once it fires up. 
-- are u sure? 

second, the oil needs to be change more frequently in winter if you make short trips and don't run it at operating temp for any extended period. 
-- disagree - fuel mixture is enriched in cold temperatures regardless to prevent stalling. (until operating temp is reached). 

third, vw specifies 5w40 because of the driving habits in europe, i.e., the autobahn. at 70 mph you don't need very much horsepower, at 120 you do, that works everything much harder. 
-- if this is true that would be very interesting. very possible you are correct. but why wouldn't they change the manual for north america though? look at a chevy impala that does like 2000 rpm all the time. wont burn any oil. look at a honda civic with vtec, they recommend 5w20 and they spin like 7000 rpms and they use a litre of oil every 1000km. my 2.0 has 280,000km and no leaks or burning at all. i never have to top up. i use 10w40 castrol even in the winter. i used 5w40 mobil 1 in my other golf last oil change and it works great too. 5w30 was invented by general motors in the 80s for energy efficiency only. that is why honda and ford came up with 5w20 in 2000 for energy efficiency only. they don't want the engine to last 300,000km. its only for emissions. 0w20 was invented for toyota hybrids i think. everyone believes that there is a winter and a summer oil. i tell them to look on the oil filler cap and people look at me strange? :screwy: 

finally, the heat in a turbo is why synthetic oil is specified. it ismuch better able to withstand high temperatures. it's not really a better lubricant other than it's heat resistance. 
-- agreed


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*whatever*



VeeDoubleYouGuy said:


> first, you're mostly right, 90% of wear does occure on startup, but thats over once it fires up.
> -- are u sure?
> 
> second, the oil needs to be change more frequently in winter if you make short trips and don't run it at operating temp for any extended period.
> ...


 we're all entittled to our opinion, contrary to what some would say. do what works for you, its your car.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

gmikel B 

VeeDoubleYouGuy C-


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

:laugh: 

zing


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

AudiJunkie said:


> harmankardon35 A
> 
> gmikel C
> 
> ...


 Hey, what's my grade?! (5W40)


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

depends which car though. lots of 1.8ts came with 5w40 and recommend 5w40. funny thing, when i had my 03 jetta 1.8 even the dealer had no idea what oil to put in. i called 3 different vw dealers and they all told me a different grade of conventional bulk oil that they put in. most people dont do synthetic oil changes they just go to mr lube. you would probably say im crazy to run 15w40 diesel oil in my oval track race car, but to each his own. by the way, the 504 or 507 (acea a3/b4 i think?) oil came into existence because of the new catalytic converters on the diesel models. crazy particulate filters and low sulphur diesel. regular oil would over time clog the cat converters. cool eh? those new clean diesels are the cats meeeow. with 140hp and the dsg box they should be the standard for all new jettas and golfs in my opinion.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

15w-40 is an ideal choice for anything tracked. Not good in winter though. Spec oils are generally intended for extended drain intervals. imo, more frequent service with a nornal oil is better than longer synthetic intervals. Say, 5000 miles verses 10k, I'd take 5k in everything w/o a turbo. 



TechMeister said:


> AudiJunkie-
> 
> Your statements and conclusions are so baseless as to be complete nonsense. Your conclusions are based on your opinion - NOT facts. The data you posted does not even support your conclusions.
> 
> The SAE determines oil pumpablity based on J300 test not by placing oil in the freezer. What oil to use has nothing to do with if you have a turbo or not. Your nonsense about "hot spots" and other foolishness shows you have no clue on the subject and you're trying to B.S. people.





gmikel said:


> :screwy::screwy:


 





 


http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*the 502 list is 2 pages long*



AudiJunkie said:


> gmikel B
> 
> VeeDoubleYouGuy C-


 although i threw it out, i just got a small booklet with all the vw approved oils fro mvw as part of an oil sludge warranty campaign. although there are more 0w-30 and 5w-30 oils, the bulk of the list is still 5w-40.


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## 1.8tjetta=fasttttt (Dec 5, 2010)

AudiJunkie said:


> :laugh:


 hahaha read the bottle dude it says right there 5w-30!!!! lol I use Castrol Edge 5w-30 it is the BEST oil under the new royal purple Euro version. It is also very easy to get a hold of. My local vw dealer even sells kits of Edge 5w-30 and filters. So I am happy with my choice I just wish I could buy it by the 5 gallon bucket.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

5w-30 is the way to go in Upstate NY. Half as thick in the cold as 5w-40. At -13f, the Edge is about 3400cSt, the 5w-40 is as much as 9000cSt in the case of Mobil 1 TDT. 

I'm using Edge 5w-30 too. Seems to do well in 1.8t...










This is the dealer OE oil, if it's VW 504 it could be a problem with lowered additive levels for emissions protection, which does not work well with our fuel and engine tune in North America, although it is necessary to use in TDIs (VW 507).










imo, Edge is the best of all words, a premium base oil, but with more additives than VW 504 or other low saps oil.


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## lemansvw (Jan 21, 2009)

While I don't really post much on this particular portion of the forum I do enjoy reading these threads. However, I have to ask the question to Audijunkie as to how you gained your knowledge and what your qualifications if any are? Just curious because you seem to make many assertions but your data is lacking...


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