# finally dynoed!



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

well i finally dynoed my car after a year and a half since i finished it..its a mk3 vr 12v obd2

it made 416.8 whp at 15 psi on 93 oct . the a/f ratio was 11.5 through out the pull. 4th gear pull....i wouldnt say i was disappointed but i was hoping for more(maybe 20 more whp). i didnt have a boost controller so i ran it off my waste gate. im goin to get it dyno it again with a boost controller and c16 at 30 psi to see what this b***h really makes lol. if their is anything i can do to make up that 20 hp chime in please...i kno some may so go standalone and i would of but i need the car to pass inspection. thanks...no videos:facepalm:

motor:
3L 9:1 comp. oversized wrist pins
pauter rods
balance and polished crank
stage 3 p&p 3 angle valve job(stock valves)
sp 263 cams
HD springs and retainers
juan sri
garrett T04Z .84 exhaust
atp exhaust mainfold
full 3'' exhaust not cat. 2 resonators no muffler
38mm waste gate
50mm recirculation valve

Trans:
ap tuning 1-4 gearset
peloquin limited diff.
clutchnet 6 punk unsprung dual diaphram PP(red)
autotech LW flywheel

ECU:
C2 stage 4 pro maf


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Way rich for only 15psi..... 12 to 1 at most 12.5 to 1 would be better.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Way rich for only 15psi..... 12 to 1 at most 12.5 to 1 would be better.


Fail


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

.therealvrt said:


> Fail


Anything richer than 12.5 to 1 and you're just using the extra fuel to cool the charge down. Should not be necessary at 15 psi.


----------



## MiamiVr6T (Jul 24, 2004)

Different dynos give different numbers. Don't worry so much about the numbers. Only use the same dyno to see improvements made from your baseline which is your current dyno. And yes standalone is your best bet to make the most power and I wouldn't run any other way especially with a built motor like you have.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

That number looks fine to me. Boost controller away from a big number... Nice to see another T04z vr6 out there.


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

i did ask the tuner at the shop if i could lean it out alil but he said it wasnt worth the 5 hp increase so i left it alone...thanks for the replies


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

turbo toic said:


> .... if their is anything i can do to make up that 20 hp chime in please


:laugh: 
I got an idea, lean out to 12:1... 
and/or add 1-2 psi of boost
... try a different dyno.... like a dynapack... you'll make it up there 

Those are pretty decent numbers in my book :thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Prof315 said:


> Anything richer than 12.5 to 1 and you're just using the extra fuel to cool the charge down. Should not be necessary at 15 psi.


Agreed. At 15psi I would run 12.5:1 for max power. Been doing it for years with no issues. On race gas car was fastest at ~12.8-13.0:1


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> Fail


You fail.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> You fail.


Really? Come on man....


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

what afr do you see on the street vs the fake load on the dyno ?


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

magner said:


> what afr do you see on the street vs the fake load on the dyno ?


true, that's really the question


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

to tell u the truth i only see the a/f gauge right when full boost kicks in(4k) and after that im lookin at the road but the gauge says 11.0 at 4k....thats what it said on the dyno aswell ....im gonna leave the a/f alone right now un till i hit the dyno again and this time its gonna be in the 5 hundreds with some boost increase and c16....if most of u agreeing on the numbers being good for what it put down than ill take it as it is and be happy it.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Really? Come on man....


Yes really. At 15psi 12-12.5:1 would be "better" than 11.5:1 IMO hence the "fail" response.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Yes really. At 15psi 12-12.5:1 would be "better" than 11.5:1 IMO hence the "fail" response.


I like your new autobiographical sig


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> Yes really. At 15psi 12-12.5:1 would be "better" than 11.5:1 IMO hence the "fail" response.


Oh no you misunderstood I agree with you. I was getting at how you say you only comment when people quote you. That "Fail" comment was not directed at you in any way. Go ahead and ruin another thread for all I care. You talk alot about childish comments, but you make them yourself.


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Yes really. At 15psi 12-12.5:1 would be "better" than 11.5:1 IMO hence the "fail" response.


VR6 pistons look "better" with cracked ring lands :laugh:


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

sp_golf said:


> VR6 pistons look "better" with cracked ring lands :laugh:


Maybe 12.0 AFR, but I like to stay in the 11's due to not really knowing how accurate my WB is. I was always taught to shoot for 11.5 on the nose, because it's a safe AFR and not so rich it will effect power a great deal. I don't know if that is right or wrong though, I have never had any problems in my experiences. I learned a great deal about FI from my last supervisor who was a Honda single cam guy. Whilham1320 over on Honda-Tech, great guy.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Maybe 12.0 AFR, but I like to stay in the 11's due to not really knowing how accurate my WB is. I was always taught to shoot for 11.5 on the nose, because it's a safe AFR and not so rich it will effect power a great deal. I don't know if that is right or wrong though, I have never had any problems in my experiences. I learned a great deal about FI from my last supervisor who was a Honda single cam guy. Whilham1320 over on Honda-Tech, great guy.


Fact: anything above 12.5 to 1 AFR is purely cooling the intake charge.

Fact: rich is safe but can be very costly in terms of power.

Example: The boss's old race car (1.6L Scirocco SCCA Production class) always ran at ~ 12 to 1 and made 112-115whp ( it was class restricted to 11 to 1 compression, no head porting and .450" lift on the cam). We finally figured out a way to adjust AFRs on CIS consistantly and accurately and retuned for 13.2 to 1 AFR. The car made 132whp. nuff said


I prefer to run 12.5 to 1 AFR and be conservative on timing. Also safe.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Fact: anything above 12.5 to 1 AFR is purely cooling the intake charge.
> 
> Fact: rich is safe but can be very costly in terms of power.
> 
> ...


 So you are saying you tune an NA car to the afr as a FI one? 
Every tuner i know runs a fi car in the 11s. Why. Better safe than sorry


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

No I'm saying that while rich is safe especially on a forced induction car it can be very costly in terms of power production. It also tends to do other not so good things like speed up carbon bulid up in the combustion chamber and cause preigniton due to hot spots. Conservative timing curves (say 1.5-2 degress retard per psi of boost instead of the rule of thumb 1 degree per psi) also keep you from detonating and killing your motor without burning so much fuel and creating so much carbon.


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

I gotta note that A/F target is not always the same even from motor to motor speaking of different types of engines of course. For example, you won't run mid 12's on a subie from my experience, they don't like it.

My 8v I use to run solid 12-12.5 with high boost no issues... but after seeing some data from various wideband testing, probably the accuracy of your unit is +/- 0.3 at best so solid 12 is were I roll no adays


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Prof315 said:


> No I'm saying that while rich is safe especially on a forced induction car it can be very costly in terms of power production. It also tends to do other not so good things like speed up carbon bulid up in the combustion chamber and cause preigniton due to hot spots. Conservative timing curves (say 1.5-2 degress retard per psi of boost instead of the rule of thumb 1 degree per psi) also keep you from detonating and killing your motor without burning so much fuel and creating so much carbon.


Well....... that's tuning for optimum preservation. Most people here are tuning for max power without certain engine failure.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

DieGTi said:


> Well....... that's tuning for optimum preservation. Most people here are tuning for max power without certain engine failure.


That's what water/meth injection is for .


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> VR6 pistons look "better" with cracked ring lands :laugh:


Cracked ring lands at 15psi at 12 or 12.5:1? Who's motor? Not mine.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Oh no you misunderstood I agree with you. I was getting at how you say you only comment when people quote you. That "Fail" comment was not directed at you in any way. Go ahead and ruin another thread for all I care. You talk alot about childish comments, but you make them yourself.


1) I don't know what you're talking about.

2) The guy I quoted has been riding my dk for years and quotes me religously so yeah I'll return the favor whenever I see fit.

You don't wanna ruin the thread which is why you are instigating an argument right now:facepalm:

He posted "fail" before me. Now quote him and post the same rant


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

why would you want to even think about standalone? put someone else's bull**** ecu in my car? no thanks.... do you not think VW/AUDI/VAG along with Bosch spent millions making and designing ecu's??

Why do you think you would gain more power without the OEM ecu?


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> why would you want to even think about standalone? put someone else's bull**** ecu in my car? no thanks.... do you not think VW/AUDI/VAG along with Bosch spent millions making and designing ecu's??
> 
> Why do you think you would gain more power without the OEM ecu?


Because if it's a decent system you can gain control over EVERYTHING including things that aren't supported by the stock ecu..... water/meth, nitrous, flat shift, launch control, shift lights etc.


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

Water/meth can be a bolt on system....or just add a decent intercooler setup in the first place.

Nitrous is fake HP

If your tuner is good enough like the ones i know they already do flat shifting and launch control on OEM ecu's 

so again remind me how a standalone ecu can give you more power?


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> Water/meth can be a bolt on system....or just add a decent intercooler setup in the first place.
> 
> Nitrous is fake HP
> 
> ...


Well for one thing we're talking about converting an N/A car to F/I. Yes I know that there are tuners and chips to deal with that but how about electronic boost control? The ECU never supported that. Sure you can but an EBC controller just like you can buy a standalone progressive water/meth kit. But let's compare cost: Chip tune or reflash $100-$1500 dollars, progressive water/meth controller $150 -$350, electronic boost controller $200-$500 vs $1300 to $1500 for a lugtronic P&P or $600 to $1000 for a Megasquirt 3/3X system. And now you can also dump the factory ignition for something more robust along with still having FAR more I/O flexibility than a stock ECU. Plus with a factory ECU change the cams or turbo or whatever and now you have to spend the bux for a new chip/reflash.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

And finally the real proof is right here :http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5233600-C2-630-vs-Lugtronic

nuff said.


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Slapbladder said:


> Water/meth can be a bolt on system....or just add a decent intercooler setup in the first place.
> 
> Nitrous is fake HP
> 
> ...


I did: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5233600-C2-630-vs-Lugtronic

And went from the same setup the OP was using. Standalone allows you put the fuel and timing where you want it. Chip tunes are way conservative in both these areas. Moving these points back to the right will increase power across the board.


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

Nuff Said?.....slightly arrogant if you ask me...

Lugtronic?...lol....

If you already know tuners and oem ecu's can do Launch Control and Flat shifts? then why in your post above you said they can't and you have to use standalone to do it?

I would much rather use a Bosch ECU any day of the week....easy enough to add an Apexi AVCR etc for boost control...

so my mk4 with a 3.6 Turbo running the OEM N/A MED9.1 ECU and FSI runs badly hey? and that ECU would eat a standalone for breakfast on speed accuracy let alone the later 16's and 17 editions of software and hardware....i don't see any standalones with the FSI technology...


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> Nuff Said?.....slightly arrogant if you ask me...
> 
> Lugtronic?...lol....
> 
> ...


True enough they are't there yet. But most current gen standalones blow the doors off older stuff which is what the OP has BTW.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Even IF there was a standalone that supported FSI I'd probably think twice about installing it.

But DIGI :banghead: OBD1 Motronic  early ODB2 motronic :what: All of these can easily be replaced with a standalone that is VASTLY superior.


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

or get rid the odb1 or 2 and stick me7 on the car which would give him everything he needs...


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> or get rid the odb1 or 2 and stick me7 on the car which would give him everything he needs...


incompatible cam wheel and other issues not the least of which is the 22-24 gauge wiring that falls apart when you touch it.


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

Prof315 said:


> incompatible cam wheel and other issues not the least of which is the 22-24 gauge wiring that falls apart when you touch it.


i know a MK1 personally that uses me7 - 3.0l VR6 - GT40R that runs E85...and that runs fine


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Cracked ring lands at 15psi at 12 or 12.5:1? Who's motor? Not mine.


Yup, especially on VRs where certain cylinders run leaner. The only VRs I've seen running at 12.5:1 are on race gas or software tunes where the owners have no choice because they can't adjust them. The knock sensors help keeping those motors together but then you're losing power of course.
But of course since it hasn't happened to you it can't possibly happen.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

sp_golf said:


> Yup, especially on VRs where certain cylinders run leaner. The only VRs I've seen running at 12.5:1 are on race gas or software tunes where the owners have no choice because they can't adjust them. The knock sensors help keeping those motors together but then you're losing power of course.
> But of course since it hasn't happened to you it can't possibly happen.


not true, the rear bank of a vr never runs leaner!!??


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> 1) I don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> 2) The guy I quoted has been riding my dk for years and quotes me religously so yeah I'll return the favor whenever I see fit.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I just think its funny that you always cry wolf. You were the wolf this time, not him.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> i know a MK1 personally that uses me7 - 3.0l VR6 - GT40R that runs E85...and that runs fine


Ok look I'll quit beating this dead horse. At the end of the day it's really a matter of preference. You like late model factory tunable ECUs and I prefer standalone systems. They both have pros and cons. I personally don't care much for newer cars. So I drive a 21 year old Corrado. I also work on cars all day long so I get to see what breaks/fails on a regular basis. Armed with that knowledge, the fact that I chose to power the car with a hybrid/fraken motor and the fact that I'm a tightwad I chose a standalone system. If I owned a late model FSI car I'd probably be hacking the factory ECU. Same deal if I owned a late model WRX or EVO. But I don't. 

Oh and just for the record my 20+ year old POS rado idles and drives like a factory tuned late model and gets over 30 mpg at 90 mph but can 0-60mph in 5.4 seconds with some 1st gear wheel spin and 0-100mph in 7.3 seconds. ( onboard SD card datalogging rocks!)


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Great taste or Less Filling? I'd like to see this with a voice-over of SEM vs. OEM. More entertaining than dudes arguing on the internet.


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

.therealvrt said:


> not true, the rear bank of a vr never runs leaner!!??


Dude if the wideband says 12.5 it's 12.5 on all 6 :laugh: Who needs those fancy standalones with injector offset


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

DieGTi said:


> Great taste or Less Filling? I'd like to see this with a voice-over of SEM vs. OEM. More entertaining than dudes arguing on the internet.


What were we talking about?


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

and a 1982 Golf is new?.....mmm no...is this car not a hybrid? mmm yes more than your corrado....

i would dearly love to see you understand the working of a med9.1 ecu and read the Hex code and software within....good luck 

working with cars everyday does not make you a guru on all thing auto motiv....far from it...most people who work with cars everyday are paint by numbers grease monkeys who don't know their arse from their elbow...


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

well i didnt expect this in the post but i like it..u get to see both side of options on standalone vs. oem ecu .....anyways anyone have a AEM truboost for sale before i spend $300 on it


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I saw one in the FI classifieds for like 200. Might want to check.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Here you go.:beer:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5305077-FS-AEM-truboost-EBC


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Dude if the wideband says 12.5 it's 12.5 on all 6 :laugh: Who needs those fancy standalones with injector offset


I know I don't. 

FI'd at 12-12.5:1 for 4-5 years now. No problem:beer:

You can obsess over every detail or just the ones that matter. I prefer the latter because I have a life outside of fiddling with sems.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Yeah, I just think its funny that you always cry wolf. You were the wolf this time, not him.


I think it's funny that you're trying to play good cop while starting an argument.

I guess we both make each other laugh:laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Yup, especially on VRs where certain cylinders run leaner. The only VRs I've seen running at 12.5:1 are on race gas or software tunes where the owners have no choice because they can't adjust them. The knock sensors help keeping those motors together but then you're losing power of course.
> But of course since it hasn't happened to you it can't possibly happen.


Great. I'm telling you that my car is faster at 12.5:1 vs. 11.5:1 on race gas or 93 octane up to ~16psi on 9:1 compression on a chip tune. 

I only run ~99 octane at 20psi, but it's also fastest at 12.5~12.9:1 A/F. 

The OP is running a chip? Are you? I think my experience is more relevant in this case. Know your role:beer:


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Great. I'm telling you that my car is faster at 12.5:1 vs. 11.5:1 on race gas or 93 octane up to ~16psi on 9:1 compression on a chip tune.
> 
> I only run ~99 octane at 20psi, but it's also fastest at 12.5~12.9:1 A/F.
> 
> The OP is running a chip? Are you? I think my experience is more relevant in this case. Know your role:beer:


Have you been reading anything that's been said?


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

sp_golf said:


> Have you been reading anything that's been said?


:laugh:

3 in a row:screwy:


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> most people who work with cars everyday are paint by numbers grease monkeys who don't know their arse from their elbow...


I'm not even gonna rise to this .... eace:


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Here you go.:beer:
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5305077-FS-AEM-truboost-EBC


yea i saw it but someone beat me to it...thanks tho:thumbup:


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

so from what im reading when i run c16 i "could" lean it out to 12:0 ~ 12:5? or i misunderstood


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

AFR's don't translate across different fuels, they all have different stoich points. C16 is the same as "pump gas" at 14.7 though. Pump gas does not have anywhere near enough of a consistent blend, and is mixed with 10% ethanol almost everywhere now, so who knows the correct stoichiometry from one tank to the next. The best you can do is guess and tune on the safe side.


Sunoco MO2X UL – 14.5
Sunoco 260 GTX – 14.4
Sunoco 260 GT – 13.9
Sunoco 260 GT Plus – 13.7
Sunoco Standard – 14.8
Sunoco Supreme – 14.9
Sunoco MO2X – 14.5
Sunoco HCR Plus – 14.8
Sunoco Maximal – 15.0
Sunoco MaxNOS – 14.9


Turbo Blue Unleaded (100 octane): 13.9:1
Turbo Blue Unleaded Plus (104 octane): 13.7:1
Turbo Blue 110: 14.7:1
Turbo Blue Advantage: 14.9:1
Turbo Blue Extreme: 15.0:1


VP Street Blaze 100 = 14.16
VP C10 = 14.53
VP 110 = 15.09
VP C16 = 14.77
VP MS109 = 13.41


The best way to tune on a new fuel is by reading your plugs.... they'll tell you what's really going on inside.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

turbo toic said:


> so from what im reading when i run c16 i "could" lean it out to 12:0 ~ 12:5? or i misunderstood


Absolutely. A buddy of mine is running his VRT on 87 octane at 10psi ( no head spacer either) at 12 to 1 with out ill effect. We're just very conservative with timing.


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

djsheijkdfj said:


> AFR's don't translate across different fuels, they all have different stoich points. C16 is the same as "pump gas" at 14.7 though. Pump gas does not have anywhere near enough of a consistent blend, and is mixed with 10% ethanol almost everywhere now, so who knows the correct stoichiometry from one tank to the next. The best you can do is guess and tune on the safe side.
> 
> 
> Sunoco MO2X UL – 14.5
> ...


thanks for the info....but how r u getting the numbers and what do they mean....A/F at idle?....sry:banghead:...just tryin to learn


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

turbo toic said:


> thanks for the info....but how r u getting the numbers and what do they mean....A/F at idle?....sry:banghead:...just tryin to learn


stoic, which is the perfect air/fuel mixture, for example regular gases perfect mix is 14.7, which has a ratio of air/gas molecules of 14.7 to 1.
So if a gas has a different stioc then the number you would tune your car to on cruise and WOT would be different.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

wow again there is alot of anger on this forum


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

turbo toic said:


> thanks for the info....but how r u getting the numbers and what do they mean....A/F at idle?....sry:banghead:...just tryin to learn


Found the numbers online. Stoich is the point at which the fuel burns perfectly. Gasoline has a stoich point of 14.7:1 - 14.7 parts air to 1 part gasoline.


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

perfect...i get it now...thanks guys


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Have you been reading anything that's been said?


Sure. Have you?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Slapbladder said:


> working with cars everyday does not make you a guru on all thing auto motiv....far from it...most people who work with cars everyday are paint by numbers grease monkeys who don't know their arse from their elbow...


Yes and no. Like anything, it depends on the individual. Smart, hard working people that do anything long enough are gonna become good at what they do and therefore deserve some degree of respect.

Sure, a master tech on a certain brand may not be able to tune the ecu or write the software. However, name your favorite tuner and ask him to find a water leak, diagnose an intermittent CAN network problem, an instrument cluster that intermittently cuts out, and an intermittent noise from the AWD system that only happens at 75 mph while driving(not on the lift) on a 09' XC90. Diagnose all 4 within an hour while the customer pounds their fist on the counter because she's late for her hair appt. 

Specialists in any field, if they're good at what they do, are much needed and deserve respect. A business wouldn't pay the guy that could do the above accurately and quickly $80-$100k a year if he wasn't valuable.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> I think it's funny that you're trying to play good cop while starting an argument.
> 
> I guess we both make each other laugh:laugh:


Your a strange person.


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

realize what perfect 14.7:1 mixture means... its emissions mixture....
~12.5:1 is the perfect 'power' mixture, meaning it produces the most energy per amount of fuel. 

That being said, don't think that every engine can run that power mixture, combustion is complicated process and it is not uniform inside each cylinder, which is why running richer is safer way of tuning and much needed on many engines. This is why direct injection can run super lean mixtures because of isolated combustion.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

GTijoejoe said:


> realize what perfect 14.7:1 mixture means... its emissions mixture....
> ~12.5:1 is the perfect 'power' mixture, meaning it produces the most energy per amount of fuel.
> 
> That being said, don't think that every engine can run that power mixture, combustion is complicated process and it is not uniform inside each cylinder, which is why running richer is safer way of tuning and much needed on many engines. This is why direct injection can run super lean mixtures because of isolated combustion.


True. Unless you have a WB per cylinder you cannot know exactly whats happening althought reading plugs is a good indicator. Since the rear banks on a vr run leaner than the front i would not want to run in the mid 12s for an afr since the rear is probably leaner than that.


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

Slapbladder said:


> Nuff Said?.....slightly arrogant if you ask me...
> 
> Lugtronic?...lol....
> 
> ...


You pretty much have 0 clue what your talking about.

How many standalone cars have you ever tuned/delt with?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> realize what perfect 14.7:1 mixture means... its emissions mixture....
> ~12.5:1 is the perfect 'power' mixture, meaning it produces the most energy per amount of fuel.
> 
> That being said, don't think that every engine can run that power mixture, combustion is complicated process and it is not uniform inside each cylinder, which is why running richer is safer way of tuning and much needed on many engines. This is why direct injection can run super lean mixtures because of isolated combustion.


12.9-13.0:1 is what I have been told will ALWAYS produce best power IF detonation is not an issue.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

And here comes the standalone vs. chip pissing contestopcorn::facepalm:


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> 12.9-13.0:1 is what I have been told will ALWAYS produce best power IF detonation is not an issue.


there are two numbers LBP & RBP (lean best power, and rich best power). , and they in fact do change depending on the motor. although they are all in the same ballpark.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> 12.9-13.0:1 is what I have been told will ALWAYS produce best power IF detonation is not an issue.


13.0:1 is a good target for most all-motor tunes at peak power. I've tuned a few vr6's on standalone and that's where the best power is with moderate ignition advance. Feels soggy with more fuel and doesn't take as much advance with less.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

There are wide and narrow ranges of max power afr and they are very setup dependant. Also there are good reasons to run other than max power afr in certain situations.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> This. There are wide and narrow ranges of max power afr and they are very setup dependant. Also there are good reasons to run other than max power afr in certain situations.


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> You pretty much have 0 clue what your talking about.
> 
> How many standalone cars have you ever tuned/delt with?


lol sounds like you need to do some investigation sunshine....

i see you have Lugtronic in your sig...which if you want to use that fair enough...as i said a bosch unit will piss all over a standalone for speed and also why are you not using an oem ecu? because YOUR dog**** tuner cannot map it correctly or understand Hex??

you also have clutchmasters which is very suspect...CM lasted no time at all on my car....Helix motorsport clutches piss all over CM...

I fire back the YOU pretty much have ZERO clue....period....


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

slcturbo said:


> Yes and no. Like anything, it depends on the individual. Smart, hard working people that do anything long enough are gonna become good at what they do and therefore deserve some degree of respect.
> 
> Sure, a master tech on a certain brand may not be able to tune the ecu or write the software. However, name your favorite tuner and ask him to find a water leak, diagnose an intermittent CAN network problem, an instrument cluster that intermittently cuts out, and an intermittent noise from the AWD system that only happens at 75 mph while driving(not on the lift) on a 09' XC90. Diagnose all 4 within an hour while the customer pounds their fist on the counter because she's late for her hair appt.
> 
> Specialists in any field, if they're good at what they do, are much needed and deserve respect. A business wouldn't pay the guy that could do the above accurately and quickly $80-$100k a year if he wasn't valuable.


as you say yes and no


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Slapbladder said:


> lol sounds like you need to do some investigation sunshine....
> 
> i see you have Lugtronic in your sig...which if you want to use that fair enough...as i said a bosch unit will piss all over a standalone for speed and also why are you not using an oem ecu? because YOUR dog**** tuner cannot map it correctly or understand Hex??
> 
> ...


:facepalm::screwy:

Apparently it's good enough to run a [email protected] a [email protected] a stock block VR.

Last time I checked Kevin was one of the best tuners in the market. :thumbup:


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

Slapbladder said:


> lol sounds like you need to do some investigation sunshine....
> 
> i see you have Lugtronic in your sig...which if you want to use that fair enough...as i said a bosch unit will piss all over a standalone for speed and also why are you not using an oem ecu? because YOUR dog**** tuner cannot map it correctly or understand Hex??
> 
> ...


Exactly how fast Is your car?

I went 150mph on a stock block vr. Show me a stock ecu car that can even do 130mph-140 MPH 1/4 mile


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Exactly how fast Is your car?
> 
> I went 150mph on a stock block vr. Show me a stock ecu car that can even do 130mph-140 MPH 1/4 mile


and how fast would your car of been if you had tuned it?


----------



## optiks (Mar 15, 2003)

hey slc how were you able to get over 12 AFR on a chip, mine runs low 11's at WOT and i wouldent mind leaning it up a bit


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> 12.9-13.0:1 is what I have been told will ALWAYS produce best power IF detonation is not an issue.


I'm glad, running lean also has high EGT's... so you have to consider that even without detentation.
You are also considering a general all complete engine mix (accumlated from all cylinders). Unless you are donig a cylinder condition investigation and have the ability to tune each individually.
Always is way to much of a blanket statement and I'm very sorry but always is certianly just not true, you only need one account to prove other wise :thumbup:
Fuel alone is not what makes power, 12.5:1 is not a theory its a scientific chemical fact about gasoline energy. Power is made from controling the combustion process through fuel ratio and timing, it certainly changes from one engine to the next eace:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

optiks said:


> hey slc how were you able to get over 12 AFR on a chip, mine runs low 11's at WOT and i wouldent mind leaning it up a bit


Crank the boost until you get the desired afr. "Tuned"


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Crank the boost until you get the desired afr. "Tuned"


Lol


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Crank the boost until you get the desired afr. "Tuned"


I don't miss those days...


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

optiks said:


> hey slc how were you able to get over 12 AFR on a chip, mine runs low 11's at WOT and i wouldent mind leaning it up a bit


What chip?

obd1 dizzy ran ~11-11.5:1 so I think I ran 3.5bar fuel pressure to lean it out.

obd2 42# VR runs all over the 12's pretty much so haven't had to touch it.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> I'm glad, running lean also has high EGT's... so you have to consider that even without detentation.
> You are also considering a general all complete engine mix (accumlated from all cylinders). Unless you are donig a cylinder condition investigation and have the ability to tune each individually.
> Always is way to much of a blanket statement and I'm very sorry but always is certianly just not true, you only need one account to prove other wise :thumbup:
> Fuel alone is not what makes power, 12.5:1 is not a theory its a scientific chemical fact about gasoline energy. Power is made from controling the combustion process through fuel ratio and timing, it certainly changes from one engine to the next eace:


And so the over analysis engineering babble begins:facepalm: No sht there are alot of factors that contribute to power. I'm talking about A/F.

The statement I made wasn't mine. Argue with the 3-4 tuners that make a living tuning cars that told me ~12.5-13:1 will always make the best power if you aren't using extra fuel to stave off detonation. 

Good ole vortex. You can say 1+1=2 and someone's gonna disagree with you


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

dont take it personal.. there are ALOT OF DICK RIDERS HERE

And they ALLL HATE when u dont wanna ride with them.. i like being different.. i also like being able to tune my standalone and not having to wait months for some tooner who works out of his ****ing basement anyway


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

tbt-syncro said:


> and how fast would your car of been if you had tuned it?



love it


----------



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

FWIW, I went to dyno my car last week and the dude who was running my car (Their tuner) wouldn't allow the car to be run anymore after the first pull. My AFRs were between 12.3-12.6 and he said it was WAY too lean and he didn't want to be responsible if it blew up :screwy:

Mind you, It's been like that from the get-go when Jeff flashed my computer with the 630cc tune the get-go, more than a year ago


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> FWIW, I went to dyno my car last week and the dude who was running my car (Their tuner) wouldn't allow the car to be run anymore after the first pull. My AFRs were between 12.3-12.6 and he said it was WAY too lean and he didn't want to be responsible if it blew up :screwy:


you forgot to mention that its a tuner with no experience with these motors, and is used to work with open deck motors (which are always tuned richer.)

:beer:


----------



## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

Prof315 said:


> onboard SD card datalogging rocks!


yes it does! can the oem ecu's do datalogging? I find using logs is the best way to fine tune a system. no dyno needed.









power drops off equally from ideal 12.6:1 when running rich or lean. 
of course some motors might need to be richer due to being prone to detonation.


----------



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

TBT-Syncro said:


> you forgot to mention that its a tuner with no experience with these motors, and is used to work with open deck motors (which are always tuned richer.)
> 
> :beer:


Very true, he basically had no idea what he was looking at when I opened my hood...


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

boost_addict said:


> dont take it personal.. there are ALOT OF DICK RIDERS HERE
> 
> And they ALLL HATE when u dont wanna ride with them.. i like being different.. i also like being able to tune my standalone and not having to wait months for some tooner who works out of his ****ing basement anyway


:laugh: :thumbup:


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> And so the over analysis engineering babble begins:facepalm: No sht there are alot of factors that contribute to power. I'm talking about A/F.
> 
> The statement I made wasn't mine. Argue with the 3-4 tuners that make a living tuning cars that told me ~12.5-13:1 will always make the best power if you aren't using extra fuel to stave off detonation.
> 
> Good ole vortex. You can say 1+1=2 and someone's gonna disagree with you


You're very defensive, who said my statement was aimed at you, it was obviously aimed AT YOUR STATEMENT....

neither here or there you made no further insight as to you agreed or disagreed with the statement which many would take to that you agree sinice you posted it :thumbup: 
I'm begining to realize that you may not be the brightest crayon in the box.... not every HVAC man is the best at fixing your A/C and not every tuner that tunes for a living knows what he's doing :wave:


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> The statement I made wasn't mine. Argue with the 3-4 tuners that make a living tuning cars that told me ~12.5-13:1 will always make the best power if you aren't using extra fuel to stave off detonation.



That's about the broadest blanket statement that could be made. Every motor is different, and every motor will take to timing and mixture differently. I'm not talking about comparing a SBC to a VR6 either - literally, every single motor will make more/less power with XXX tune.

There is more to determining AFR's than just "lean it out until it doesn't knock".... :banghead: But then again, you're so convinced that the best solution for every car ever made is the same identical chip tune, regardless of each individual setup, so I don't expect much from you anyway.


----------



## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

How much more knock resistance / cooling effect does gasoline have over water? Just curious why the standard is the maintain a rich mixture for the purposes of cooling, when water is practically free. I guess I've been playing with the idea of water injection even on a NA car for fuel economy sake for a while.


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

Slapbladder said:


> lol sounds like you need to do some investigation sunshine....
> 
> i see you have Lugtronic in your sig...which if you want to use that fair enough...as i said a bosch unit will piss all over a standalone for speed and also why are you not using an oem ecu? because YOUR dog**** tuner cannot map it correctly or understand Hex??
> 
> ...


WELCOME BACK FOFFA!!!!!! (bows down)


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

ziddey said:


> How much more knock resistance / cooling effect does gasoline have over water? Just curious why the standard is the maintain a rich mixture for the purposes of cooling, when water is practically free. I guess I've been playing with the idea of water injection even on a NA car for fuel economy sake for a while.



Because it's another fluid that you have to keep filled and stay on top of. If you're tuned for water/meth, then you run out and don't realize it..... game over.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

lugnuts said:


> WELCOME BACK FOFFA!!!!!! (bows down)


oh boy, and i thought the tex was bad w/ just slcdouche
:banghead:


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Because it's another fluid that you have to keep filled and stay on top of. If you're tuned for water/meth, then you run out and don't realize it..... game over.


 I might be talking above my head, but I know a honda guy that justs injects straight water to cool cyl temps. He pushing 30+ psi on a sohc motor and does this, no meth. Maybe thats what he is getting at?


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

That is what he was getting at but the concept is still the same.... if you need to inject 100% water to decrease your temps....and you run out, what happens ??? Hot spots, detonation, melted parts 

Meth and water both have their benefits on their rates of cooling, which is why 50/50 mix is so popular


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

sorry, misunderstood what you were getting at. That makes sense.


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

TBT-Syncro said:


> and how fast would your car of been if you had tuned it?


cmon timmy answer the question! prove to everyone that your car would go just as fast as everyone else's car in here if you tuned it yourself or kept the factory ecu:wave:


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

turbodub said:


> cmon timmy answer the question! prove to everyone that your car would go just as fast as everyone else's car in here if you tuned it yourself or kept the factory ecu:wave:


thats only possible if he had Kevin's magic black glasses on. I heard that when you put them on, you automatically can read assembly. :laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Aww man. My feelings are really getting hurt now

Vortex= good for 2 things

1) Entertainment

2) The classifieds

I'll continue to come for those two reasons:laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> You're very defensive, who said my statement was aimed at you, it was obviously aimed AT YOUR STATEMENT....
> 
> neither here or there you made no further insight as to you agreed or disagreed with the statement which many would take to that you agree sinice you posted it :thumbup:
> I'm begining to realize that you may not be the brightest crayon in the box.... not every HVAC man is the best at fixing your A/C and not every tuner that tunes for a living knows what he's doing :wave:


Would paying someone for an ecu and to tune my car make me bright? Or at least in the clique?

Stay high school Vortex:laugh:


----------



## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Because it's another fluid that you have to keep filled and stay on top of. If you're tuned for water/meth, then you run out and don't realize it..... game over.


If that's all, it would make sense to just install another gauge or have a way of switching when it goes out. Guess people in the FI world aren't really too concerned with fuel economy?


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ziddey said:


> If that's all, it would make sense to just install another gauge or have a way of switching when it goes out. Guess people in the FI world aren't really too concerned with fuel economy?


My question is would water effect AFR? I know meth does.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

TBT-Syncro said:


> I heard that when you put them on, you automatically can read assembly. :laugh:


That would have been quite helpful in college.


----------



## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

GinsterMan98 said:


> My question is would water effect AFR? I know meth does.


it does not affect afr. but it may have an effect on combustion characteristics.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

wow this one turned out great.. ALL the DICK Riders and a couple retards make for a good read...

opcorn:


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> Nuff Said?.....slightly arrogant if you ask me...
> 
> Lugtronic?...lol....
> 
> ...


i dont have an FSI, or any bosch ecu. so i would have to buy one, if i chose that route.. second i would need a harness that has a ton of garbage in it i do not need. 

Now if i buy a standalone, like the vems i use, it comes with software to tune it and is included in the price.. writing files to a bosch ecu is not as easy as making a file for any standalone. or we would ALL be doing it.. 

Lastly add an apexi for boost control, or add a watermeth controler.. its easy. yes its easy.. here is the differnce, i have one harness in my car and it controls EVERYTHING.. i dont have a bunch of different parts from different companies wired up all differntly. i prefer it that way. i feel the wiring is alot cleaner and it is alot easier to control every aspect of a motor with one program on my laptop.

i am not saying your fsi ecu is not faster then my vems.. but lets face it, for alot of us a standalone is alot more realistic/easier/cheaper then writing files for a bosch me9.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

boost_addict said:


> i dont have an FSI, or any bosch ecu. so i would have to buy one, if i chose that route.. second i would need a harness that has a ton of garbage in it i do not need.
> 
> Now if i buy a standalone, like the vems i use, it comes with software to tune it and is included in the price.. writing files to a bosch ecu is not as easy as making a file for any standalone. or we would ALL be doing it..
> 
> ...


:beer:


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Would paying someone for an ecu and to tune my car make me bright? Or at least in the clique?
> 
> Stay high school Vortex:laugh:


 ...no, no it wouldn't


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

slcturbo said:


> Would paying someone for an ecu and to tune my car make me bright? Or at least in the clique?
> 
> Stay high school Vortex:laugh:


 no but it could make you go faster. isnt that the whole point of modifying these cars? and you didnt you pay someone to tune your car already?


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

I like this guy:facepalm: 
This dude aint bad either :screwy: 
and this guy  
and...  
 
:laugh: 
:wave: 
ic:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

turbodub said:


> no but it could make you go faster. isnt that the whole point of modifying these cars? and you didnt you pay someone to tune your car already?


 Point of modifying the cars is whatever the consumer wants it to be. Very subjective. That could be spinning wheels on the street, roasting exotics on public highways, running 11.5's, or faster. 

I paid $350 for an eprom and spent 5 min installing it. A fraction of the time and money the cool kids spent if that's what you were getting at


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> I paid $350 for an eprom and spent 5 min installing it. A fraction of the time and money the cool kids spent if that's what you were getting at


 My megasquirt eprom/ecu kit was $190. I took my time building it over a couple nights after work instead of going to the bar. I was okay with a break from the bar at that point... Scottsdale life bro, Scottsdale life. :laugh: :beer:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> My megasquirt eprom/ecu kit was $190. I took my time building it over a couple nights after work instead of going to the bar. I was okay with a break from the bar at that point... Scottsdale life bro, Scottsdale life. :laugh: :beer:


 Congrats. Then the never ending fiddling with the tune. 

Different strokes for different folks. :beer:


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Congrats. Then the never ending fiddling with the tune.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks. :beer:


 I haven't touched my tune in over 2yrs.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Then the never ending fiddling with the tune.


 Thats what happens when you optimize what you have. Mine is tuned up to 5700 rpm so far, need to work on getting it to 7k or so. Car just starts hauling ass and my boost control sucks. That was done in about (5) 10 mile runs on the street. Cruise is tuned pretty well, needs another street run to finalize it and its good to go. I think maybe, 3-5 hours total tuning time. I dont have any prior experience with tuning. 

Ever think slc that since the drag racing forum cannot stand you, nor the FI forum that your the issue? 

Its not about the internet fan clubs that dont exist, its about people showing off their accomplishment. Every ****ing post that you make is how your car runs mid 11's on a chip tune. Guess what? Good for ****ing you, no one here gives a ****, so please retire from these forums 

If everyone here is high school/cool kid status that has no life outside tuning cars, then what are you doing here?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

holycow...what a read. 


i have used both SEM and ME7.5 now... 

my current is ME7.5, but my next project, which will be a track car..will be on standalone, autronic sm4( will be tuned by diebold autosport) or lugtronic(tuner Kevin). it just has way more to offer for everything i could possibly want to use. i can get all of my racelogic stuff hooked into to for onboard telemetry, and have the SEM datalogging as well. which will work out perfectly for me, as it would be a circuit car. 


now..my street car, which has tweak-ability, is awesome. turn key fun, reliable and makes power. 
to me, the ME7 stuff is awesome for my street car, and the SEM was and will be best for my race car. 

my preference, and it is debateable about which is superior..because variables will always change the outcome. 


anyway..hope you get to re-dyno for the numbers you want..but take it to the track setting(drag i assume) you want, to really get an idea of how it's running:beer::beer:


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

slcturbo said:


> Point of modifying the cars is whatever the consumer wants it to be. Very subjective. That could be spinning wheels on the street, roasting exotics on public highways, running 11.5's, or faster.
> 
> I paid $350 for an eprom and spent 5 min installing it. A fraction of the time and money the cool kids spent if that's what you were getting at


 So like I said. You spent money(350 us dollars) on a tune for your factory ecu (chip) to make your car go faster. See you are a cool kid and you didn't even know it. All this arguing for nothing!


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> I haven't touched my tune in over 2yrs.


 Ok well it had to be tuned to begin with. Did you do it? Time. Pay someone else? $$. 

Did you get a pnp harness too for $190? or cut up the stock one? 

Either way it's the same story. You spent more time or $$ for more adjustability. Like I said, different strokes.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

turbodub said:


> So like I said. You spent money(350 us dollars) on a tune for your factory ecu (chip) to make your car go faster. See you are a cool kid and you didn't even know it. All this arguing for nothing!


 Awesome 

My definition of cool kids: 
-Wanna be in an exclusive club 
-Do what others in the exclusive club are doing 
-Wanna break records 
-Want a fan club 

I don't fit my criteria


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Thats what happens when you optimize what you have. Mine is tuned up to 5700 rpm so far, need to work on getting it to 7k or so. Car just starts hauling ass and my boost control sucks. That was done in about (5) 10 mile runs on the street. Cruise is tuned pretty well, needs another street run to finalize it and its good to go. I think maybe, 3-5 hours total tuning time. I dont have any prior experience with tuning.
> 
> Ever think slc that since the drag racing forum cannot stand you, nor the FI forum that your the issue?
> 
> ...


 Insults will get you far in life. 

Post reported to mods:beer:


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Insults will get you far in life.
> 
> Post reported to mods:beer:


 I didn't read one single insult in that entire post


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Insults will get you far in life.
> 
> Post reported to mods:beer:


 
If you cannot handle one's opinion, or an entire group, of you then the last place you should be is here on the vortex.:thumbup: 

I understand your chip runs great, as does everyone else here. _Thats the point_. How many people here put in every post they make how great their car runs on SEM, or a off the shelf tune? 

FWIW, for how much time you spend on here defending your position that could be time spent on setting up and tuning your car.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

FYI, unless someone posts some racial slur or someone saying they will gut your familly and bang your mom, Reporting it doesn't do anything..


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

we are grown ass men here. vortex doesnt care about name calling, they really only watch for classified listers who should be paying..


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

boost_addict said:


> and bang your mom


 350$ and 5 min install? :laugh:


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

This thread is getting more hilarious each day.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Ok well it had to be tuned to begin with. Did you do it? Time. Pay someone else? $$.


 I'm going to take a guess that you've never built or tuned one at this point due to your assumptions. * No*, it doesn't have to be tuned to begin with. Yes, I did tune it from scratch. Start up and idle on first attempt and right out onto the 101 loop in Phoenix and within 2mins of start-up it was cruising at a perfect 14.7:1. A buddy of mine, Jason (aka Twinscrew20v), was sitting in the passenger seat as a witness. 



> Did you get a pnp harness too for $190? or cut up the stock one?


 Neither. Built from a scrap harness from a CNC machine and various spare wire ends from a junkyard. Extended/hidden in the tire wells. Free. 



> Either way it's the same story. You spent more time or $$ for more adjustability. Like I said, different strokes.


 I agree. Just stop spreading misinformation and bias in support of your "stroke". :thumbup:


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Post reported to mods:beer:


 
Reported for reporting:thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> If you cannot handle one's opinion, or an entire group, of you then the last place you should be is here on the vortex.:thumbup:
> 
> I understand your chip runs great, as does everyone else here. _Thats the point_. How many people here put in every post they make how great their car runs on SEM, or a off the shelf tune?
> 
> FWIW, for how much time you spend on here defending your position that could be time spent on setting up and tuning your car.


 Quite the contrary champ. I state mine and get insulted for it by people that don't share the same opinion. To be honest I find it ridiculous, juvenille, and embarrassing for the people that do it, but apparently that's a minority viewpoint around here. 

My car is already tuned.:beer: 

Now onto the next rocket scientist with the 6th grade insult:facepalm:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Reported for reporting:thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> I agree. Just stop spreading misinformation and bias in support of your "stroke". :thumbup:


 Specifically list what misinformation I have spread. 

Everyone has bias in everything. Not letting your bias make you irrational is the key.:beer:


----------



## 2ToneTurbo (Feb 15, 2007)

On a chip tune you basicly crossing your fingers and you get to a stone wall. I've been there . Going standalone was the best thing my car ever got. I don't see the big deal if you have someone tune your car.. like turbodub said this is the reason why we mods these cars to go fast. And I'm pretty sure 99.9 percent of the people on here would say all of kevin black tunes have been suscessful.. the guy does tunning over internet.. lol good luck with the chip.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Specifically list what misinformation I have spread.


 Semantics? Okay, I'll bite. 

1) "Congrats. Then the never ending fiddling with the tune." 

2) "Ok well it had to be tuned to begin with." 

3) "Either way it's the same story. You spent more time or $$ for more adjustability." 

Dude... each of these statements is dripping with bias. It demonstrates a lack of familiarity with the systems that you are offering feedback on which is an example of misinformation. Expand your horizons so you can speak from experience and not from fanboy land on just one side - try building one of these systems and tuning it yourself. It's not all about the finished product; you'll learn more about your car & cars in general than you ever could with a chip swap. You'll realize that a stock system is just like a standalone system but without adjust-ability and CARB/OBD function... which is a non-issue on pre-1995 models. You'll relish in the warm sun without your ass blocking the oxygen and sky.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

boost_addict said:


> FYI, unless someone posts some racial slur or someone saying they will gut your familly and bang your mom, Reporting it doesn't do anything..


 not true..i called a friend of mine, a jew in our local forums..and someone repoarted me and i was infracted and 24 hour banned....lol...this place is full of pussies


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*reported


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Vegeta Gti said:


> not true..i called a friend of mine, a jew in our local forums..and someone repoarted me and i was infracted and 24 hour banned....lol...this place is full of pussies


 I think 'jew' fell under the racial slur section :laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> Semantics? Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> 1) "Congrats. Then the never ending fiddling with the tune."
> 
> ...


 In reference to point 1, you are honestly going to make the argument that the vast majority of SEMS users don't "fiddle" with the tune after initial tune? That's not been my experience at all. Most trem it "neverending" 

Point 2, Sems needs tuned. If yours came with a base map then that's no different than a chip tune which "suck" in most sems users opinion. Can't have it both ways. You can't site adjustability as a benefit of sems and then say it comes tuned. 

Point 3, add up total time spent researching, building, installing, tuning, fiddling with Sems and $$ spent and you wont touch the time and cost spent of a chip tune. 

Learning about your car? Oxygen? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not putting standalone down. I'm saying it has downsides that make it not such a good fit for many. 

You have the time and desire to "learn" about your car. Some people don't have the time or desire. I do EVERYTHING else to cars 5 days a week. I don't want to spend my weekends tuning them.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> not true..i called a friend of mine, a jew in our local forums..and someone repoarted me and i was infracted and 24 hour banned....lol...this place is full of pussies


 Or maybe some want to make it a place where people can express their opinion without being personally insulted by a bunch of adolescent e-thugs that try and silence any viewpoint but their own. 

It's ridiculous and should not be tolerated.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Or maybe some want to make it a place where people can express their opinion without being personally insulted by a bunch of adolescent e-thugs that try and silence any viewpoint but their own.
> 
> It's ridiculous and should not be tolerated.


 You really are pi-bolar. 
The quote you just made describes you to a tee. 
Before you say anything about me, go back and read that chip thread and see my comments on chips. I have had experience with both so i believe i am qualified to give my opinion, educated or not. 
I have been running standalone for over 7 years now and until my recent switchover of SEM brands i had not fiddled with the tune the car had for years. 
Say i spent more money than you, read my sig, dig up your old street tire at the track thread, and compare times. I AM FASTER, and it's on pump gas, not that fancy race gas that you run. 
Another point about your ethug whinning. RACE GAS, you call Mr Mullen's car a race car because he runs E85, well son, that same gas can fill up a chev truck or a minivan at pumps across your great land and you bitch on about it yet you run a fuel that is NOT pump gas. Hipocrite 
Seems like you hate all the cars that are faster than you, all the people who stand up for their beliefs when they differ from yours, please, do us a favour and leave the tex 
/end rant


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

^ 
I don't hate anyone's car sir. I have the $$ and ability to build a 9 sec. car if I wanted one. I don't.:beer: 

What I don't like are the clicky, gang up, bully tactics used by some on internet forums to help their buddy sell ecu's or just prove their opinion "right" by making people with an opposing viewpoint not want to post. 

Just about anyone faster than me should be running standalone. It's the better choice for race only cars or race cars that are also street driven. However just because your a fan of standalone doesn't mean it's a good fit for a very large market segment that includes very busy people looking for 300-400whp in a street car. 

Both methods/products are offered because there is a market for both. Accept it and move on. So much of it is perspective of the buyer. No ones wrong here. 

Now who's gonna be the genius that quote's my post and says "yeah but you can't make 800whp on E85 and run 9's with your chip so there":facepalm: It'll happen. I guarantee it:beer:


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> ^
> I don't hate anyone's car sir. I have the $$ and ability to build a 9 sec. car if I wanted one. I don't.:beer:


 CORRECTION 
you sir could not build a 9sec car. this i know.. you may be able to pay someone to build it for you.. 

glad you like your car and your setup.. alot of people like the c2 setup.. we all know this.. so you can stop telling us.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> ^
> I don't hate anyone's car sir. I have the $$ and ability to build a 9 sec. car if I wanted one.


 You're delusional.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> You're delusional.


 Disagree.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> CORRECTION
> you sir could not build a 9sec car. this i know.. you may be able to pay someone to build it for you..
> 
> glad you like your car and your setup.. alot of people like the c2 setup.. we all know this.. so you can stop telling us.


 I guess we'll agree to disagree. 

I'll stop telling it when people stop quoting my posts and bringing up my car. I find it pretty boring to be honest:thumbdown:


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

hahahahah :laugh:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i was posting to my friend as a joke and it was incredibly apparent...we live and work together, not bein racial. fuk race. 

we're all dogs. think about it. 

and only in america is such racial things held up some much, cos this place can't move on. 


it's obvious slc has some issues, but everyone is instigating as feeding off one another here. so,this sort of reaction from each other, is well, inevitable. 

SEM will always be superior to a chiptune for a race car in the hands of a knowledgable tuner and a solid setup with a specific goal and so on.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Now onto the next rocket scientist with the 6th grade insult:facepalm:


 You need to quote the insult, sir. 

Reported for lying:thumbup:


----------



## Slapbladder (Feb 1, 2006)

may i cast your attention to the United Motorsport tuned R32 Turbo running the original OEM ME7 ecu and 800+whp and e85? nowt wrong with chip tunes


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> You need to quote the insult, sir.
> 
> Reported for lying:thumbup:


 Not personal though. Who was I speaking to? Exactly.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Slapbladder said:


> may i cast your attention to the United Motorsport tuned R32 Turbo running the original OEM ME7 ecu and 800+whp and e85? nowt wrong with chip tunes


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Slapbladder said:


> may i cast your attention to the United Motorsport tuned R32 Turbo running the original OEM ME7 ecu and 800+whp and e85? nowt wrong with chip tunes


 That was also a custom chip tune. No one said a stock ecu of any sort couldnt run major power (except digi ****). We are talking about off the shelf tunes versus full blown SEM. 

If the ME7 tuning software was a bit more open source, my 16vt would be running it, hands down. I fully agree MS (or SEM) any version doesnt even compare to a Bosch MExx ecu. 

Stop regurgitating what you have read on the internet forums, and do real research. The biggest issue people with experience have is the lack of a REALLY good, specific to their car off-the-shelf tunes. SLC's car runs great (according to him), but what all the other chip tune users who have deviated from the run of the mill garretts? Car either runs rich when it shouldnt, leaner than ideal in boost or has poor driveability. Very rarely does someone have something besides a Garrett 50 trim on a UM/C2 tune and it runs 100%


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

exactly..i have a custom tune from Uni as well... 

it rocks..crusher of souls,destroyer of worlds..it's my effin DD. 


but..if your serious about racing and such...SEM has what u need


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

Slapbladder said:


> may i cast your attention to the United Motorsport tuned R32 Turbo running the original OEM ME7 ecu and 800+whp and e85? nowt wrong with chip tunes


 one off tune.. not something we all can do.. or we all would be making our own tunes on our stock ecus. 

cast your attention at ed or joel, they have both made over 1000whp.. SEM.. 

lets face it sem is more practical/realistic/cheaper then writing your own tune for the stock ecu.. 
i dont mean maestro or uni either.. i mean the tunes slapbladder talks of... not you off the shelf tune


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> cast your attention at ed or joel, they have both made over 1000whp.. SEM..


 This is the heart of it. 

1) What % of people that add FI to a fwd car have power goals anywhere near that high? 

2) Of the ones that do, how many have the motor, trans, turbo, chassis, intercooler, etc. to support it. 

What someone needs to make 1000hp is irrelevant to the vast majority. These are fwd cars, most of which aren't drag raced with 26x10" slicks.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> but..if your serious about racing and such...SEM has what u need


 I somewhat agree, but who defines what "serious" means. A trophy? An event with 20 people in the stands? 

Everyone of these cars on here are drag raced for fun as a hobby. Whether you run 9's or 14's doesn't determine who's serious and who isn't. It's drag racing. The guys that go faster spent more time and $$.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> I somewhat agree, but who defines what "serious" means. A trophy? An event with 20 people in the stands?
> 
> Everyone of these cars on here are drag raced for fun as a hobby. Whether you run 9's or 14's doesn't determine who's serious and who isn't. It's drag racing. The guys that go faster spent more time and $$.


 Thats the best way of putting it. Don't sell your slicks, still would like to see you out there.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

right, but if you wanna ensure your getting optimum performance, 100% get all you can get formy our setup, and effiecently, go SEM. a chip tune is awesome, i love my uni. 

but i will go back to SEM with my next racecar whenever i get back to the mainland. it's just much much more intricate and detail oriented. i can do it all..traction control, ALS, 3steep/launch control, flat shift, AWD control, and more..and yes u will tell me i can do that with ****ty maestro,etc.. 

but i do swaps..into old cars, so the less i can add in component wise the better. and i can control all these things with one SM4.:beer: 

but that's just my preference. I utilize my custom Uni tune as well. turn key fun everyday.:beer:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

SEM-Racecar 

No argument there.:beer:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Thats the best way of putting it. Don't sell your slicks, still would like to see you out there.


 Appreciate that:beer:, but I'm done racing the Corrado. May do some street tire runs every now and then, but that's about it. 

Spent too much time under the hood of a car over the last 20 years. Time to enjoy some of the other things life has to offer:thumbup:


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> Appreciate that:beer:, but I'm done racing the Corrado. May do some street tire runs every now and then, but that's about it.
> 
> Spent too much time under the hood of a car over the last 20 years. Time to enjoy some of the other things life has to offer:thumbup:


 Man screw this place, its about going out and laying some rubber. No hard feelings I hope, you did give me a ish ton of advice. Keep the slicks in the shed for a rainy day when you get the bug.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

whats the point racing on a chip tune is like racing my girlfriend.. it blows, until i come home and F her. 

sell your slicks..


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

boost_addict said:


> whats the point racing on a chip tune is like racing my girlfriend.. it blows, until i come home and F her.
> 
> sell your slicks..


 Well I am not one to call a chip the best thing since sliced bread but I ran consistant 11.8's on my 30# setup. Am I an idiot because I ran a chip tune? I guess 11 sec cars are slow and everyone who owns one is stupid because it is not a 10 sec car.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

i never said you were an idiot nor did i say your car was slow.. however in my opinion racing a chip tune is no fun.. i prefer launch control and boost per gear with my VEMS


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Fair enough, You can have BBG and LC with a chip tune. Though it takes two extra boxes and some $$$. I would be running a standalone if I could afford it outright. I use what I can afford I guess. No worries, thought you were getting at something else.:thumbup:


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

fastest i have ever gone was 11.3 so im not much better.. hopefully this year i can change that. i have some 24.5 and some new cams.. last year i was only on 22 and no boost control or wheel speed sensors plugged in..


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

ya standalone can be expensive.. i got my vems box for about 600 so it made the decisioin alot easier for me.. i also like the fact that everything is in the one harness.. its very simple and clean..


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

boost_addict said:


> ya standalone can be expensive.. i got my vems box for about 600 so it made the decisioin alot easier for me.. i also like the fact that everything is in the one harness.. its very simple and clean..


 And MS3/3X is about the same price.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Man screw this place, its about going out and laying some rubber. No hard feelings I hope, you did give me a ish ton of advice. Keep the slicks in the shed for a rainy day when you get the bug.


Agreed on all counts. The website has nothing to do with anything I'm doing:beer:

I like street cars. Once one runs 11.49 or better I'll build another one:thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> whats the point racing on a chip tune is like racing my girlfriend.. it blows, until i come home and F her.
> 
> sell your slicks..


You talking to me?

I had a blast racing my car for 4 years on chip tunes. Went from 15's to 11.4's. Mission accomplished.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> i never said you were an idiot nor did i say your car was slow.. however in my opinion racing a chip tune is no fun.. i prefer launch control and boost per gear with my VEMS


I have launch control and boost by gear and I run a chip tune


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

:facepalm:


----------

