# DSG Gear Ratios: Beetle Turbo -vs- GTI



## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Those who have driven both the GTI and the Beetle Turbo mentioned that the GTI is faster off the line. The GTI is also quicker at highway acceleration (ie 30-50 MPH, 50-70 MPH). Besides drag, which the Beetle has more and the variation in ECU programming, another difference is gear ratios. 

DSG Gear Ratios from VW.com...

*Beetle* :::::::::::: *GTI*
1 : 3.77 ::::::::::: 3.36
2 : 2.09 ::::::::::: 2.09
3 : 1.32 ::::::::::: 1.47
4 : 0.98 ::::::::::: 1.10
5 : 0.98 ::::::::::: 1.11
6 : 0.81 ::::::::::: 0.93

Final drive 1 & 2 : 3.94 & 3.09.... same on both vehicles

In 1st gear, the engine makes 3.77 (Beetle) and 3.36 (GTI) revolutions for every revolution of the transmission’s output shaft. The Beetle is a bit slower in 1st gear because it requires slighter more revs to go at the same speed as the GTI. 

2nd gear is the same for both. 

3rd gear the Beetle has an advantage. 

The 4th, 5th and 6th gears in the Beetle are really overdrive gears (ratios < 1) since the output shaft of the transmission is revolving faster than the engine. The GTI's has only one overdrive gear - the 6th gear. So the trade-off is the GTI accelerates faster off the line and at highway speeds while the Beetle is more relax and may have better over-all gas mileage.


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## Old Bug Man (Nov 5, 2011)

Interesting. Now why did they go to all that trouble to make them different? And I don't understand Final I and Final II. Does that happen at the differential like an old truck with a two-speed rear end? And when does it happen, at 4th and 5th, since those ratios are the same?


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## UTE (Nov 12, 2011)

Cadenza_7o said:


> In 1st gear, the engine makes 3.77 (Beetle) and 3.36 (GTI) revolutions for every revolution of the transmission’s output shaft. The Beetle is a bit slower in 1st gear because it requires slighter more revs to go at the same speed as the GTI.


Ehhh... I'm a bit fuzzy on the logic of this argument. Off the line, the quicker car usually has higher ratios.

Bill


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

I did read something about VW adjusting the U.S. version of the Beetle's DSG because of all
the stop and go traffic we Americans have to deal with.


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## shoeboxjoe (Jun 19, 2010)

ridgemanron said:


> I did read something about VW adjusting the U.S. version of the Beetle's DSG because of all
> the stop and go traffic we Americans have to deal with.


I think America is more know for long, open, straight highways than stop-and-go traffic. Possibly explains the 3 over drive gears?


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## BeetleCurious (Jul 18, 2011)

There must be a typo on 4 and 5th Beetle gear since they are the same. Are you sure 5th isn't around .91???
But ya just the gearing differences would explain the different track numbers. The drag wouldn't do it.


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## Old Bug Man (Nov 5, 2011)

I'll guess it's simply because the GTI is a bit heavier and has a three-passenger back seat, so it needs to be a little lower-geared in 1st for starting out, and 3rd for passing, because it has a higher potential gross weight. How's that for a wild guess?


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

I'm betting this is one of the changes made to differentiate the Turbo Beetle from the GTI. In all the press launch materials, VW stated that the GTI will always be the performance 'halo' vehicle of the brand. VW specifically changed certain elements in the Beetle to make the handling and performance a little more relaxed than the GTI. I know they changed up the suspension bushings/rollbars and such a little to not invade on the GTI.

I'm wondering if someone needs to start cataloging the differences. With some swapping out of these items you could make your Beetle handle as well as a GTI.

I'm also wondering how the manual transmission cars will compare to the manual transmission GTIs.


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Old Bug Man said:


> Interesting. Now why did they go to all that trouble to make them different? *And I don't understand Final I and Final II. Does that happen at the differential like an old truck with a two-speed rear end? And when does it happen, at 4th and 5th, since those ratios are the same?*





BeetleCurious said:


> *There must be a typo on 4 and 5th Beetle gear since they are the same. Are you sure 5th isn't around .91??? * But ya just the gearing differences would explain the different track numbers. The drag wouldn't do it.


I haven't found any info about the 2 final drives but the NB Turbo S also had 2 final drives, with the 5th & 6th linked to Final Drive 2. 

The DSG on the Beetle has gears 4th and 5th with the same ratio (0.98). It would make sense that Final Drive 2 begins with the 5th gear.


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

First, one disclaimer, the transmission ratios on VW's website are likely manual transmission ratios. The GTI specs page actually states that the numbers shown are for the manual transmission. The Beetle page does not. But, if you look at the non-Turbo models, they show only 5-speed transmissions. The 2.5 automatic transmissions are 6-speeds, the manuals are 5-speeds. This leads me to believe that the Beetle Turbo transmission specs are for the manual transmission.

Anyway...

If the Beetle DSG has a 3.77 1st gear and the GTI DSG has a 3.36 1st gear, and they both have the same final drive, then the Beetle should be faster in 1st gear...theoretically. The 3.77 in the Beetle is actually a shorter gear than the 3.36 in the GTI. Meaning, the Beetle's engine will rev more quickly in 1st gear and therefore should launch just a tad faster. Now, things like traction, vehicle weight, etc. all play into it, but with all else being equal, the Beetle has the "better" 1st gear for acceleration.

Also, the DSG in the Beetle is no different than any other iteration of the DSG and VW's/Audi's transverse 6-speed manuals in that it has two final drives; one for gears 1-4 and one for gears 5-6 (or 5-7 if it's a 7-speed DSG).


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Pelican - I think you're right that the data is for a manual.


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## Old Bug Man (Nov 5, 2011)

I took the liberty of doing the math and adjusting the 5th and 6th ratios to compensate for the difference in the final drives.

Dividing 3.09 by 3.94 gives me a multiplier of 0.784. I then multiplied that by the 5th and 6th ratios, revising them to what they would be if there were only a single 3.94 final drive.

I think I did this right. If so, the numbers should be more useful for discussion purposes.

Beetle :::::::::::: GTI
1 : 3.77 ::::::::::: 3.36
2 : 2.09 ::::::::::: 2.09
3 : 1.32 ::::::::::: 1.47
4 : 0.98 ::::::::::: 1.10
5 : 0.77 ::::::::::: 0.87
6 : 0.66 ::::::::::: 0.73

So to me it looks like the Beetle is *a bit quicker off the line and also tamer putting around parking lots (it's nice to have a low low gear when doing slow maneuvering). *The GTI will get to third sooner and have more revs passing at speed. *The Beetle will be more economical at cruising speed, but redlined in sixth, it will have a higher top speed, though that might be downhill with a tailwind.


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

I emailed VW a couple days ago for the correct gear ratios for both the Beetle Turbo and the GTI.  Here they are:

Manual (Beetle / GTI):
3.77 / 3.36
2.09 / 2.09
1.32 / 1/47
.98 / 1.10
.98 / 1.11
.81 / .93

Final I and II (same in both cars): 3.94 (I) and 3.09 (II)

DSG (Beetle / GTI)
3.46 / 3.46
2.05 / 2.15
1.30 / 1.46
.90 / 1.08
.91 / 1.09
.76 / .92

Final I and II (same in both cars): 4.06 (I) and 3.14 (II)

So, overall, the Beetle has slightly taller gearing than the GTI for both transmissions.


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## Old Bug Man (Nov 5, 2011)

6th in the Beetle's DSG is quite high. Maybe they were thinking fuel economy since the Beetle is slightly less aerodynamic. Still, with six gears, and an engine with this kind of power band, I doubt it's that noticeable. Compare the insurance rates if you want to see a noticeable difference. The GTI is slightly more agile because its driver's wallet is lighter.


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## UTE (Nov 12, 2011)

Old Bug Man said:


> Compare the insurance rates if you want to see a noticeable difference. The GTI is slightly more agile because its driver's wallet is lighter.


Plus the Beetle is a Chick Car.

(Heh heh heh - there's no other male Beetle owner within 100 miles of me - I figure I'm relatively safe)

Bill


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Old Bug Man said:


> 6th in the Beetle's DSG is quite high. Maybe they were thinking fuel economy since the Beetle is slightly less aerodynamic. Still, with six gears, and an engine with this kind of power band, I doubt it's that noticeable. Compare the insurance rates if you want to see a noticeable difference. The GTI is slightly more agile because its driver's wallet is lighter.


We haven't discussed Engine and Transmission management via the ECU and TCM. They control throttle response and gear shift. 

IMO, the gap between D and S modes is too big. S mode is perfect but in D mode, the Beetle is too relax and the upshift too quick for my taste.


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Pelican18TQA4 said:


> I emailed VW a couple days ago for the correct gear ratios for both the Beetle Turbo and the GTI. Here they are:
> 
> Manual (Beetle / GTI):
> 3.77 / 3.36
> ...


Looks like VW spec'd the same DSG for the Beetle and CC.


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## Superveedub (Jul 30, 2009)

So I wonder if one could take the 3-5th gears from a GTI 6MT and swap them into the Beetle's 6MT.. Thus making it just as "quick" gear ratio wise, while retaining 6th gear as a fuel economy gear?  I'll have to look into that further.


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## UTE (Nov 12, 2011)

Cadenza_7o said:


> IMO, the gap between D and S modes is too big. S mode is perfect but in D mode, the Beetle is too relax and the upshift too quick for my taste.


I was surprised when I first drove the Beetle how soon the DSG up shifts in D. If I keep my foot out of it, up shifts occur by 1,800 rpms. And, at 70 mph on the freeway, I'm running 2,200 rpms.

Having said the above, the tame nature of the DSG when in D disappears quickly when I do put my foot in it. The best use I've found for S is when coming off a freeway offramp - it down shifts earlier and gives better compression braking than D.

Bill


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

You guys need to remember that 2nd gear (DSG) in the Beetle is already good for a little over 60 MPH. Redline in 3rd (DSG) is almost 100 MPH. The GTI actually needs an upshift to 3rd (DSG) to hit 60 MPH. Point being, the acceleration (0-whatever) differences between the cars will be negligible. The GTI may have slightly better gearing for something like an autocross. But then again, the Beetle might have an advantage there because it can use one gear over a slightly greater speed range; i.e., less up- and downshifting.

Any way you look at it, we're splitting hairs here. Gears 1-3 are so similar that they might as well be the same. Even 4th and 5th are pretty close. No doubt about it though, 6th in the Beetle is noticeably taller than the GTI's 6th and results in about a 400 RPM difference between the two cars in top gear.


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## Old Bug Man (Nov 5, 2011)

Okay, let's say we're interested in driving pleasure. "D" stands for dismal. We use it for loafing around town, stop 'n go, etc. We put it in "D" because we're not going to have fun anyway, so we might as well be economical and let the transmission do all the work. Or we might be listening to something interesting on the radio and don't want to miss a word, so we loaf along quietly.

"S" is for when we're in a bit of a hurry, maybe maneuvering through some traffic or on a curvy, hilly road, but still don't want to have to think about what gear we're in.

Triptronic is for when you want to truly enjoy the experience. You want to decide what gear you're in at the next curve, where you want the rpm to be. For my purposes, and for the types of roads I enjoy driving on, the subtle gear ratio differences won't be noticeable, except for sixth, and I would have to drive to Nevada to find a road where I would intentionally put it in sixth. But in "D" the DSG will probably shift itself into sixth on a typical California freeway, where driving pleasure is an impossibility, and I will get really great gas mileage. So I'm okay with the tall sixth.


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## Blacky1002 (Feb 22, 2009)

Cadenza_7o said:


> Looks like VW spec'd the same DSG for the Beetle and CC.




Guys, please dont forget that wheels/tire sizes are different is both cars. The Beetle became taller tires and they had to adjust gear ratios to accomodate for it....


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