# help, front brake job!



## gcooley1 (May 4, 2009)

I'm in the middle of doing my front brakes, and I've removed the two big bolts on the rear of the caliper, but I can't seems to get the caliper to slide off? 

Am I missing something?


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

The first step, as outlined in the VW repair manual, is to remove the anti-squeal spring. Harry has some great step by step photos that show how to remove it.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5179596-Corrosion-on-brake-calipers&highlight=brake+spring

I am a relative noob to the Phaeton and have not removed the front calipers myself (although i'll be doing it today or tomorrow), but I'm assuming this is your problem. Old timers, feel free to chime in.

Bobby


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## gcooley1 (May 4, 2009)

are you talking about that spring clip on the front?

I also found a post where they said the following:

"Take a look at Michaels pictures (front brakes).
In order to get the calipers off, you have to take the parts number 14 and 15 out. The plastic covers (14, the upper has a clip for {if I remember right to hold either the brake line or the wire for the wear sensor}, the lower one is plane).
After removing those use a torx socket to unscrew the guide pins (15, upper and lower).
When that is done the caliper slides out easy."

When I put in a 15 torx it just spins....

I'm stuck


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

Hello -

Did you look at my post on replacing the rears? 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4772073

I've also done the front brakes and rotors and I don't remember them being much different. I didn't do a detailed write up with pictures because of some issues I had during the same time but there are some threads on it. I'll see if I can look them up tonight.

Best Regards,

Nate


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I've got some photos I've been meaning to post for months about doing the front brakes and will upload them in a minute. In the meantime, your problem is likely to be that the brake disc has worn resulting in a lip around the edge which is preventing the caliper from sliding off. Take the cap off the brake fluid reservoir and then try pushing the brake pads in slightly with your hands. It'll probably feel like they're not moving at all but should gradually give way. If, however, you're replacing the discs at the same time, you can just use a screwdriver between the pads and the discs to push them back (although you'll probably mark the rotors).

Harry


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Okay, this isn't the most detailed guide you'll ever see to changing your front brake pads and discs on a Phaeton, but it will hopefully be of some use to people! Also apologies for the funny depth of field, I had my camera on aperture priority without realising it...

First, you'll need a socket set, a torque wrench, a breaker bar, some tea and an eccles cake (this last part is essential - talk to Mike (n968412L) if you're having trouble finding one):










Remove the anti-squeal spring with a flat-head screwdriver:










You should be left with this:










Reach behind the caliper and remove the connector for the brake wear sensor. To do this you need to use a small screwdriver to lift the tab and rotate the connector 90degrees. I've already done this in the photo and the tab is on the left side of the connector in the picture:










Next, remove the dust caps for the caliper bolts. The top one is clipped to the brake sensor wire (the small white clip at the bottom of the above picture) while the other is just pressed into the bolt sleeve. Here's the bottom cap:










Next, use an allen key (or, in my case a torx wrench) to remove the two caliper bolts. They shouldn't be too tight so you are unlikely to need a breaker bar:



















Once you have the two bolts out, give them a wash with some degreaser and a scouring pad to clean the dirt off them.

Next, open the bonnet/hood and undo the cap for the brake fluid reservoir. Brake fluid is nasty stuff (it'll mark the car's paint) so I wrapped some kitchen towel around the reservoir to catch any spills that could occur during the next step:










Once that's done, push the inboard brake pad and pistons back into the caliper. It'll feel like it's not moving but apply enough pressure and it'll slowly move back in (although your forearms will hurt the next morning!). Alternatively, if replacing the brake disc as well, just use a screwdriver between the disc and the pad.

Once the pistons are retracted enough to let the pads slide over the lip of the brake disc, remove the caliper and set it aside. Either hang it from one of the suspension arms or prop it up from below so as not to put any strain on the brake lines:



















If you're replacing the disc, you'll need to remove the caliper support. This is attached by two large self-locking bolts which are tightened to a million nm. Before jacking the car up, I turned the steering to full lock in the opposite direction which let me get a breaker bar (believe me, you'll need it...) between the disc and the wheel arch.

Once both bolt have been undone, the caliper support comes right off. I then used a fine flat file to clean the paths for the brake pad runners.

Next, you'll need a T30 torx wrench to remove the supporting bolt for the brake disc. Although the one on this side came out easily, the one on the other side had corroded in place and, because the metal is quite soft, stripped itself when I tried to remove it. Drilling the bolt out on a freezing November evening was not much fun...










With the disc off you can see the holes for the large caliper support bolts behind:










Put a bit of copper grease between the disc and the wheel bearing so the next person who tries to remove the disc doesn't need to use a dead blow mallet quite as vigorously as I did to dislodge it. New disc in place:










I then used a bit of brake cleaner to wash the disc down with a clean piece of kitchen towel.

In true Haynes' manual style, installation is reverse of removal! 










However, the two caliper support bolts should be replaced with new ones and when installing the new brake pads, put a bit of copper grease on the *backs* of the pads and in the tracks on the caliper support to prevent brake squeal. I can't remember what the torque values are for the various caliper bolts but will look them up and post them soon.

Finally, if you're fed up of your anti-squeal springs rusting and, like me, are vulgar you could replace them with some similar parts that have actually been properly painted and laquered to prevent corrosion:











I'll probably edit this post with a few more details as I remember them (I did the job last November) but hopefully the above will help anyone planning to do the brakes themselves.

Harry


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Nice write-up Harry, great pix!
The P.O. had all the brakes and rotors done just before I took delivery of the car.
They were supposed be low dust but the front pads are horrible.
I may consider pulling them out and replacing them with something this group recommends since the rotors only have a couple of thousand miles on them.
Maybe the "proper" anti-squeal springs too.

Any suggestions for low-dust front pads?
Thanks!


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## MichaelGa (Dec 1, 2009)

*brake pads*

John,

Mintex worked great for me on a previous car. Not sure they make them for the Phaeton.
Michael


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Michael,
Mintex sounds familiar, I believe that's what I put on the 911, whatever is on there is very low dust.
When I get back home I'll check the paperwork from each car and figure out what is on them.

The brake dust on the fronts of the Phaeton is obscene!


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

Prince Ludwig said:


> If you're replacing the disc, you'll need to remove the caliper support. This is attached by two large self-locking bolts which are tightened to a million nm. Before jacking the car up, I turned the steering to full lock in the opposite direction which let me get a breaker bar (believe me, you'll need it...) between the disc and the wheel arch.


So I'm at this point now but unfortunately, I did not turn the wheel. I've gotten a small ratchet back there but can't get enough leverage to break the bolt loose. So it looks like I'll need my breaker bar. My question is whether or not I can turn the car on and turn the steering wheel while the car is in Jack mode and while the front end is on jack stands. I'd imagine this would be safe, but I just want to be sure that the car is not going to do something weird. 

Bobby


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

Sarmale89 said:


> So I'm at this point now but unfortunately, I did not turn the wheel. I've gotten a small ratchet back there but can't get enough leverage to break the bolt loose. So it looks like I'll need my breaker bar. My question is whether or not I can turn the car on and turn the steering wheel while the car is in Jack mode and while the front end is on jack stands. I'd imagine this would be safe, but I just want to be sure that the car is not going to do something weird.
> 
> Bobby


Any takers on this question? Sorry to seem impatient, but I'd like to get this darn brake job done. I was up until 5:30 am last night changing pads and rotors as well as painting f&r calipers. Now I'm 90% done. I think I'm just going to turn the car on, assuming that nothing will happen.

Bobby


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

Anyone have a part number for the front brake caliper carrier bolts? My dealer doesn't have them in stock and would need to order them. $10 each. I'm trying to find them online for cheaper but can't seem to find the part number. I can't find them on ETKA either. ECS Tuning doesn't have them either.

Bobby


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## MichaelGa (Dec 1, 2009)

Sarmale89 said:


> Any takers on this question? Sorry to seem impatient, but I'd like to get this darn brake job done. I was up until 5:30 am last night changing pads and rotors as well as painting f&r calipers. Now I'm 90% done. I think I'm just going to turn the car on, assuming that nothing will happen.
> 
> Bobby


I can't imagine anything major happening except maybe getting some brake pad sensor warning since it has been disconnected. What you do is at your own risk ultimately. Safety above all when car is up on jacks


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

Sarmale89 said:


> Anyone have a part number for the front brake caliper carrier bolts? My dealer doesn't have them in stock and would need to order them. $10 each. I'm trying to find them online for cheaper but can't seem to find the part number. I can't find them on ETKA either. ECS Tuning doesn't have them either.
> 
> Bobby


Found it.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Passat_B5-FWD-1.8T/ES8764/

Much cheaper than the dealer and it'll be here tomorrow. I got a shipping tracking number about 10 minutes after I placed the order. Gotta love ECS Tuning.

Bobby


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Couple of details to add after doing the job yesterday:

The VW pads are Jurid, for anyone looking for OEMs.

The caliper pins take a H7 hex socket. A low profile socket is useful because access to the lower pin is impeded by the brake pipe. This was probably the most problematic part of the job for me (it wasn't a major problem, just fiddly).

The caliper bracket single-use bolts are 21mm. All four of mine moved pretty easily with a breaker bar.

The rotor screws on mine were a Phillips head, and it was really hard to get much torque on them without risking stripping them. After Harry's warning, I was very cautious, neither of mine were seized but I squirted the passenger size with PB Blaster first as a precaution. They're only there to hold the rotor in place before you get the wheel on, so they're not highly torqued. The new ones I bought had a Torx T30 head, which will hopefully make it a bit easier next time, despite the socket being very shallow.

The pistons were easy to retract, even without removing the reservoir cap. Since you can't get the pads out without removing the caliper, you have to pry the pads a bit to retract the pistons to be able to get the caliper around the edge of the caliper bracket. Applying steady pressure to the caliper, pulling it outwards, also works. Once the caliper was off, I used a pair of plumber's channel lock pliers to push the old pads apart.

The anti-squeal springs were a tad fiddly to get back on. I got the ends in place, then levered the middle tabs by inserting a flat head screwdriver between the spring and the caliper.

The hub surfaces had a light coating of rust, I removed as much as I could and used the wheel wax stuff on it. Both the old rotors came off very easily.

Overall, as brake jobs go, this one wasn't difficult. There's PLENTY of room in the Phaeton wheel well! I just wish they hadn't covered the access to the lower pin with the brake line, it would have been simple to route it a couple of millimetres up which would make all the difference. It took me quite a while to do the job, but I was taking my time and I was also cleaning all the parts as I went. The only other thing I could have done with was a couple of eccles cakes to keep me going!


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## golumito (Jun 27, 2011)

*References??*

Hello,

Does anybody could post references about brake pad and discs? I got a v10. So many references on the web...

Thanks


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

golumito said:


> Hello,
> 
> Does anybody could post references about brake pad and discs? I got a v10. So many references on the web...
> 
> Thanks


Hi,

what do you need to know? 

Stu

PS Don't forget to tell us you location!! Discs are subject to change in different markets (even within Europe)!! And I'd really like to address you by name, its much nicer!

Stu


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## golumito (Jun 27, 2011)

I need to change pads, my odb tell me to check them so i will change discs in the same time. I live in France and i bought my car in germany. I know i can change them myself but i don't want to make a mistake in buying parts.

Thanks, Stephane.(sorry for poor english)


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The safest way is to buy the parts from a dealer by giving them your VIN code.


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## golumito (Jun 27, 2011)

That's the problem, my VW dealer will be the last way, they don't know anything about Phaetons and except accept my money, only a fluid(oil) change had been a pain: 3days, not enough oil despite an appointment. Gearbox maintenance, a week and alternator pulley, the same. I surely take more care of my car(really love it  ) and prefer to spend my money somewhere else than this VW seller...

Stephane.


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

golumito said:


> That's the problem, my VW dealer will be the last way, they don't know anything about Phaetons and except accept my money, only a fluid(oil) change had been a pain: 3days, not enough oil despite an appointment. Gearbox maintenance, a week and alternator pulley, the same. I surely take more care of my car(really love it  ) and prefer to spend my money somewhere else than this VW seller...
> 
> Stephane.


Bonjour Stephane,

Bienvenue!!

Try Mister Auto in France it is a French Company that I have used here is the UK web details

http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/

UK Phaetons use 365mm front discs and 335mm rear discs. I believe French spec may be different. Please check your sizes and reply so that You can be advised correctly.

Expoman (Steven) has a V10 entre Bordeaux and La Rochelle and has a good dealer, I don't know where in France you are but we can try to help!!

Bon Chance!!

Stu


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

golumito said:


> That's the problem, my VW dealer will be the last way, they don't know anything about Phaetons and except accept my money, only a fluid(oil) change had been a pain: 3days, not enough oil despite an appointment. Gearbox maintenance, a week and alternator pulley, the same. I surely take more care of my car(really love it  ) and prefer to spend my money somewhere else than this VW seller...
> 
> Stephane.


Every time I take my car in, it's there for more than a week. The timing belt took 6 months in total. Just buy the pads from them and do the job yourself.


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## golumito (Jun 27, 2011)

Thx for the link Stu. On front, it's the 365mm, with big black eight pistons caliper, you can't miss them. I'll look this week end for the size on rear disc and will make a return.

To invisiblewave : I'm patient but it's rather for incompetence, bad informations, bad reception... It was the first time that I prefer to go to OEM dealer(out of warranty)and I'm really disappointed. Not enough oil with an appointment. Any other garage would have a look on oil type and quantity. I let them a second chance with the pulley but wire harness and cache foam was not replaced correctly. Too much for me. Since that time, I found a good mechanic passionate that is agree to help me if I have problem.
BUT 6 MONTHS You are Tibetan monk! Happily, no timing belt on V10 

Stephane.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi all,

Can anyone help me with info on V10 front pads? My car has 365 x 34mm disks, option 1LC/BAV.

The problem is that VW list the pads as 3D0 698 151A and give a parts diagram showing a plain square-ish pad with no ears (see image).

But part 151A in supplier drawings show a picture of the "151" (no suffix) pad with ears for 360mm disk.

Has anyone bought these? What do you get?

Cheers,
Chris



*pads for 365mm disk part no. 3D0 698 151A*











*pads for 360mm disk part no. 3D0 698 151*












*Typical website offer with picture of 151 but listing as 151A*


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hmmm - the price for qty 1 '151A' brake pad set seems to vary wildly. Any pictures on the supplier pages are actually of the '151' part as in my previous post.

-- £211 from the VW dealer's invoice, qty 1 invoiced but fitted on 2 corners (8 pads)
-- £142 from a Bentley Continental parts supplier (not stated if 1 or 2 corners)
-- £ 5 per corner for 'Lamborghini Gallardo 5.0' compatible Chinese parts... 

Can anyone help me sort this out?

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*V10 Brake Parts List*

Just to close my question above, the top drawing extract of the V10's front brake pads is wrong, although it is the appropriate VW drawing and the part numbers are correct. The lower drawing extract is the wrong part number.

In fact the on-line supplier pictures are correct. These relate to the front 18-inch disks 365x34mm as fitted to V10 cars and, I think, some Euro W12s, option code 1LC on the sticker.



The front pads axle set are VW part 3D0 698 151A (£222.46), or Pagid (£62.32).
Also needed are qty 2 x 3D0 698 269 spring kit, only from VW or Audi (£18.00 ea) and qty 4 x single-use caliper bolts VW part N910 319 02 (£2 ea).
The front disks are 3D0 615 301N, only from a VW or Audi parts desk (£180 ea).


The VW parts were price-matched by the local dealer desk, list is 5% higher. I also used europarts.co.uk who sometimes have a 25% discount voucher code available.

I hope that speeds the purchasing up for someone else with the 18" front disks. It took me quite a lot of research to get it right, with quality OEM supplier parts like Pagid and to get best value. 

Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Just to close my question above, the top drawing extract of the V10's front brake pads is wrong, although it is the appropriate VW drawing and the part numbers are correct. The lower drawing extract is the wrong part number.
> 
> In fact the on-line supplier pictures are correct. These relate to the front 18-inch disks 365x34mm as fitted to V10 cars and, I think, some Euro W12s, option code 1LC on the sticker.
> 
> ...


Chris,

sorry I missed this post (on holidays)!

For future reference I use Mintex pad all round (occasionally Pagid)

Cross reference Front Pads MDB 2601
Rears MDC 1924

Front 365mm Floating Discs VW PATTERN PART ONLY! (I pay £328 per pair at my chosen dealer).
Rear Discs I buy ATE £48 each online.


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## Cool_Hand (Dec 1, 2012)

*Thanks For The Help*

The dealer wanted $1800 to do a complete brake job but after reading this board, and specifically this thread, I did it myself and it turned out great. I used:

EBC Yellow Tuff Pads
Stoptech Powerslot Rotors

I painted the anti-squeal spring and caliper support bracket black, nothing too over the top.



















Again, I just to say thanks to the guys on the board. It saved me some very serious money at the right time of the year.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

$1800??? Was that with gold-plated rotors or something?? That's an outrageous quote.


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## 2004 phaeton W12 (Feb 19, 2013)

What size torx wrench did you use for the front brake pads? And are torx screws the same as star screws?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't recall there being any star/torx bolts on the brakes, other than the ones I fitted that hold the rotors in place. Those were T30.


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## 2004 phaeton W12 (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks for the help!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's not a difficult job, at least on the V8. The W12 brakes are bigger I think, with larger calipers & rotors (not sure on the US cars, they may be the same). The only niggle I had was realising that I had to get the covers off the caliper pins. There's loads of room in the wheel well which makes things a lot easier than on other cars I've done.


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## twgin (Apr 25, 2012)

Just finished new rotors and pads on my MY 2004 V8. This thread and the rear brake one were incredibly helpful. Some comments:

Torque values: Caliper carrier bolts are 190 nm or 140 ft-lbs,smooth caliper bolts are 30 nm or 22 ft-lbs, lug bolts are 120 nm or 88 ft-lbs.

The Caliper carrier bolts are one time use and are available at ECS tuning, mfg part N90876802 or EC #8764.

I used disks from JC Whitney and pads from EBC (EBC red stuff, nice, came with all sensors, anti squeak pads, a little packet of anti seize for the caliper pins).

Disks, all four on my 100K mile Phaeton were seized but good. The only way to get them off was to heat the disks using an old Ronson hobby torch from the depths of my tool closet. What I found most effective was to heat the disk using the torch, after heating, I quickly cooled the hub using a rolled up shop towel soaked in cold water. The disk would pop off with a couple of sharp taps. By disk # 4 I got it off in no time, disk #1 took a couple of hours before I finally tried the heat/cool combo.

Allen headed screws that hold the disks - all were corroded and hard to break loose. Again from the depths of the tool closet, an old impact driver that I've had for years, a couple of whacks and the screw would break free without stripping the head. Alternate method is to use a big Phillips screwdriver and vise-grips, clamp the grips on the shaft) of the screw driver a few inches from the tip, use the vise grips to get more leverage, press hard and turn (easy to strip the heads !)

The smooth caliper bolts take a 7 mm hex, comments earlier in the thread that a quarter inch ratchet drive H7 is too long for the bottom bolt are correct, it can be done but there is a hard brake line in the way. A 7 mm hex key will break it loose but tightening is supposed to be 22 ft-lbs, a shorter socket would be nice.

The Caliper carrier bolts take a 21mm socket, if your metric socket set stops at 18mm like mine, you can use a 13/16 socket, 21mm is 0.8268 inches and 13/16 is 0.8125 inches !

I did all torquing with a half inch drive, 2 foot long torque wrench. A smaller torque wrench would be easier and better for the smooth caliper bolts.

Wax spray mentioned elsewhere for preventing corrosion between the wheel and the stub cannot be ordered from VW or anyone else in the People's Republic of California, must be volatile on some level. VW mechanic recommended an Anti Seize compound from Napa, part number 80078. I used this pretty liberally: on the brake disk holding screw, on the smooth caliper bolts, between the brake disk and the hub (bevelled and flat surfaces), and between the tire and the hub (bevelled and flat surfaces), but a very thin layer. Also, take care no anti seize on the lug bolt threads, they are designed to be "dry" torqued.

Also did a lot of cleaning, be prepared for more brake dust than you know existed; just cleaning the wheels took forever.

This job took a lot longer than it should have because of seized/corroded/dirty parts. No one out there is going to treat your car better than you do, a good argument for DIY if you have the inclination.

Terry


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

On all cars, brake disc will be hard to remove by hand. This is due to corrosion weld between the disc and the hub. To break this 'weld' you simply get the heaviest ball peen hammer (or any hammer you got) and hit the disc at the face of the hub... where your wheels make contact to the discs.

When you hit it enough time and hard enough... the disc will bounce right off the hub or you hear a break and you can remove it by hand.

Just don't hit the hub lip that your wheel center hole rest on... you got plenty of room to not hit that lip.

Don't be scared to hit hard... you have to hit hard. Big swings.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Mine came pretty much straight off from what I recall, no hammering required, front or rear. I also put a bit of wax on the hub and rim contact surfaces on the new rotors, and I replaced the phillips head retention screws with torx or allen, I don't remember which.


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## twgin (Apr 25, 2012)

My rotors were stuck good; I know that some amount of pounding is required to get them off, but I always feel for the hub bearings and other stuff that are directly bearing the brunt of any pounding to get the rotors off. I keep seeing flat spots on all those ball bearings. It finally got to the point with mine that I couldn't bear any harder hits to try and dislodge them, out came the torch and three or four taps later they came off.

Terry


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Ball bearing are super super strong.. Torch heat will destroy the grease and grease seal... it really depends on how much you heat up... so much metal to heat up.

A 1/4 oz. wheel imbalance will cause 75lb hammering force on your hub/bearing assembly/suspension... so which is worse? Some hammering to get disc off or keep driving on shaking wheels?


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

Thanks to great instruction, pictures, and tips on this thread, I was able to swap out pads. Following are few additional items that I thought might help others. Please keep in mind, this is for a US 2004 W12. 

First off, these EBC reds pads were purchased for the job based on recommendations found here:











Wear sensor wire routing... yes it does make a double u turn or "S" pattern (see wire next to screwdriver):











The 7mm hex socket proved to be about useless for removing the caliper pins. Mine weren't difficult to break free and remove with this Allen wrench. Plus, the wobble end make it easy to pull the loosen pins by crooking sideways to create a wedge.




















After removing the pins, pushing the caliper pistons back in was easy using a pry bar:





















Having a piece of bailing wire ready:











Provides an easy way to hold the calipers:











A slight dab of brake grease on the pad where is slides on caliper... so this was on the inside pad. Since it only travel maybe a half inch in it's lifetime, it doesn't take much. 











Cleaned the pins and grease included with EBC brakes:











For me, the most difficult part was "Reverse of Removal" related to reinstalling anti rattle springs. For those not blessed with three hands, a set of long nose vise grips might come in handy:











In the spring, when swapping back to summer tires... looks like drop links or drop at least drop link bushings will need attention:










Noticed faint clank backing out of driveway that I didn't notice before, but wasn't listening for.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Kurt,

Very helpful and clear post! Many thanks. 

Chris


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Kurt 

Hopefully the clunk you heard was just the pads seating in their holder.

"Noticed faint clank backing out of driveway that I didn't notice before, but wasn't listening for."

Jim


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## Daytonabridge (Jan 19, 2014)

I have recently had front discs and pads replaced and have had a problem with them ever since . The garage I use recommends Pagid and they replaced my rear discs and pads with Pagid and I found them to be O.K. so went with them for the fronts also . I experienced a slight judder initially but put it down to ' bedding in ' . The judder was getting progressively worse so after a few weeks I took it back and asked the garage owner to test drive it to get his opinion , he said that he thought it was normal so after another few weeks with it getting no better I took it back again and they took all 4 wheels off and inspected all brakes and found them to be O.K. Yesterday I took the car to a German Specialist who road tested it and said it needed new front discs and pads !!! He said Pagid are rubbish and wouldn't fit them so I am having Brembo discs and pads fitted on Wednesday .
Elsewhere in this thread , Chris ( Paximus ) states that the caliper bolts are ' one use ' , my question is this .
What is the consequence if the garage re-used these caliper bolts instead of replacing them , could they work loose ?
I have done about 4,000 miles on these front discs now and it's really embarrasing when others are in the car and it judders to a stop .:facepalm:



Graham .


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Why would you pay for new brakes twice? 
Go back to the first place, and get them changes on warranty. Pagid is a perfectly fine brand name. 

Keep in mind EVERY brake part company makes different levels of performance parts. 

Saying you "put pagids" is like saying you drive "a vw"


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Vibration can many times be caused by uneven pad material buildup on the rotor.

Also, most people / shops just slap on new rotors and pads without doing 2 things- #1 cleaning the hub mating surface where the rotor mounts and #2 lubing the caliper carrier slide pins.

There is most likely nothing wrong with your physical parts that a competent tech couldn't resolve with a little time and attention to detail.

I agree with Bruce (above)- don't spend more money because the first shop (probably) missed / skipped something.

:beer:


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

+1. There's nothing wrong with Pagid, I've been using their pads in my 951 for years, but I can't comment on the rotors. If the second place is stating it needs new rotors, there must be a reason, which you can take back to the first place and demand they fix. It might just be one bad rotor. Your caliper bolts will be fine. The only really good solution to brakes is to do them yourself, that way you can spend the money on good parts rather than expensive labour, take your time and make sure it's done right, and also pay attention to the details (like greasing the caliper pins as Josh mentioned) which most brake places probably won't bother with. Brakes are one of the easiest, most cost-effective jobs you can do yourself.

One more thing, there's absolutely nothing normal about any sort of judder, no matter how slight, in Phaeton brakes. Even running my rotors thin I've never even had a hint of judder.


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## Daytonabridge (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for the replies chaps , it doesn't matter whether the garage didn't fit them properly or the discs / pads are faulty , I gave the guy 2 chances to put it right . After the Brembos get fitted I will take the Pagids back to the garage and see what he is prepared to do about it . 


Graham .


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## Daytonabridge (Jan 19, 2014)

Got the Brembo discs and pads fitted today and what a difference , brake performance is pretty good straight away and smoooooth ! . Can't wait until they bed in and I find out what stopping power I have under my right foot , it's no good getting a wriggle on if you can't stop . Price is competative too at £340 fitted , the Pagids cost me £270 so I don't think the £70 difference for quality brakes is too bad . Also , I'll try to get some sort of refund when I take the Pagids back to the garage that fitted them .


Graham .


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Thought I'd add a quick note about changing front pads (did pads only, they were nearly at the wear indicators and the rotors are still at 31.85mm, two thirds of the way through their specified life). 

It's a very easy job as brakes go, the caliper pins come out easily. Once the pins are out, you still can't get the caliper off without retracting the pistons a little to get the caliper past the carrier. To retract them, I pried between the caliper and the carrier. This pulls the caliper outwards, forcing the rear pad against the rotor and retracting the pistons.

To unclip the sensor wire, first undo the connector by using a very small screwdriver to push the clip part forwards, whilst pulling a bit. To get the pad side off the bracket, lift the bottom of the triangular tab below to release the tab from the bracket, then rotate 90 degrees.

I used VW pads, $143 from the dealer.

I also changed the caliper springs for these from Centric, they appear identical to the VW ones but a lot cheaper.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Why pull the pins? You risk dirt getting in there and causing issues.

Just pull the carrier bolts, take the whole assembly off and swap the pads.

Any reason you didn't try a different pad set? The 2 biggest improvements you can make on most cars is upgrading the tires, and the brake pads.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Several reasons. First it's a LOT easier to get the pins off than the carrier bolts. Second, removing the pins means you can clean and lubricate them. Third, I'm more than happy with the braking performance of VW pads. Fourthly, EBC pads were more expensive and aren't recommended unless you do all four corners. Fifthly, aftermarket pads don't appear to come with sensor wires, nor (in the case of the rears) spring clips.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

If anyone wants to save some money over the OEM stuff, I am very happy with the Centric / Stoptech rotors and street performance pads I put on my W12. The part #s for the pads and rotors are in this thread-

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7023112-Lets-talk-about-better-rotors-pads-and-oil


From RockAuto, using the 5% off coupon they always have, the front & rear pads together are $140. The wear sensor wires are included.


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