# ignition and carbs



## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

whats the best setup for running timing and ignition w/ advance on a 16v w/ carbs? i've heard of using the motronic ecu, or knock boxes....just curious as to what you guys think.
Is there a vacuum advance 16v distributor? that would rule...


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: ignition and carbs (twopointone)*

Some Saabs came with a vacuum advance dizzy that fits the 16v head. IIRC it was on an 8v Saab, not sure the year. The other option is to get a CIS-E knockbox ignition, that way you could run a knock sensor, and get away with as much advance as possible. There are a couple different CIS-E boxes, 8v, 16v, and Audi 10v, so you can mix and match to find the one that's right for your setup. Each one has a different advance curve.
Here's an excel file that I made that compiles all the boxes into one spot. Took a bit of searching here to find it all, but all thanks goes to Peter Tong for doing all the hard work with logging







.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaa...e.xls


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: ignition and carbs (B4S)*

I am trying to figure this same set up for my aba on carbs right now. I bought a used set up that came with a 16v knock box/icm
anyone know the p/n's for the diff boxes? 
this is what I have...










_Modified by Pats16vGTI at 10:06 PM 4-11-2008_


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: ignition and carbs (B4S)*

I pulled a 88 Saab 900 distributor for 16v car or you can use a CIS-e non motronic knock box for a 16v


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: ignition and carbs (eurotrashrabbit)*

There are a TON of posts with CIS-E knockbox wiring diargrams in a simplified way.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: ignition and carbs (B4S)*

does anyone know what the saab vacuum advance runs for a timing map?


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: ignition and carbs (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_There are a TON of posts with CIS-E knockbox wiring diargrams in a simplified way.

maybe I wasnt searching the right terms cause I came up with nothing... I spent some time with my bentley today and I think I sorted everything out... I spent the rest of the night sorting the rest of the wiring harness... buying a car with the harness in a box was a bad idea haha.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: ignition and carbs (Pats16vGTI)*

Cool, I know I found the info I was after in the 16v and hybrid/swap forums, as well as the MkI IIRC. I've got all three of the boxes, so I plan on experimenting this summer







.
I may also have a second harness if anyone is interested







.


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: ignition and carbs (B4S)*

I searched google and found some really good info on 
http://www.driversfound.com...
here is a great wiring diagram:
http://www.driversfound.com/sc...m.htm


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: ignition and carbs (Pats16vGTI)*

That's the site I was trying to remember, lol







.
The only portion that isn't correct (for MkIs anyway) is that pre-85 cars get pin 10 run to a ground, instead of power off the starter. The starter solenoid trigger wire only gets power under cranking to energize the fuel pump and get it running until the car runs on it's own, then the fuel pump relay (in the post-85) cars takes over. On a MkI, it's not needed IIRC. I've got some diagrams that show it wired to ground, provided by the all-knowing WackyWabbitRacer http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.


_Modified by B4S at 12:55 PM 4-12-2008_


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## joezeeuw (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: ignition and carbs (B4S)*

FYI most side drafts don't have a port to run vac. advance. The Saab unit is popular because it is both vac. and mechanical. Typically when you see the Saab dizzy used it isn't hooked to vacume. I tried the Saab thing and wasn't impressed. I like the MSD box with advance computer best.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: ignition and carbs (joezeeuw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *joezeeuw* »_FYI most side drafts don't have a port to run vac. advance. The Saab unit is popular because it is both vac. and mechanical. Typically when you see the Saab dizzy used it isn't hooked to vacume. I tried the Saab thing and wasn't impressed. I like the MSD box with advance computer best.

care to divulge what you did tyou run the MSD adv computer? what kind of differences did you notice? what bugged you about the saab one?
found one at a yard so I grabbed it. wonder what its map is like.


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## joezeeuw (Feb 23, 2003)

Well I didn't get too far with the Saab unit. First off I noticed that the tabs don't line up properly with the hold down bolts. Sort of a minor asthetic thing but it bugged me. Then when I got the motor together the Saab dizzy was leaking like crazy. I went round and round with the dealer trying to source repair parts but couldent come up with a new seal. So I bought a brand new VW dizzy which was pretty cheap and got the timing computer. If you are already running MSD it's a piece of cake. Power and ground, in and out. You set the dist to your max advance and the computer retards it at lower rpm's. Just seemed like a better bet to have a nice computer controlled curve rather than a finicky centrifigal advance. And I would suggest a hot ignition like an MSD. With those carbs pumping in all that somewhat poorly atomised fuel you'll need all the fire you can get.
It advances 20 degrees between 1000 and 3000 rpm


_Modified by joezeeuw at 12:13 PM 4-15-2008_


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (joezeeuw)*

thanks Joe


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (joezeeuw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *joezeeuw* »_And I would suggest a hot ignition like an MSD. With those carbs pumping in all that somewhat poorly atomised fuel you'll need all the fire you can get.
It advances 20 degrees between 1000 and 3000 rpm


exactly http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif id use the Mallory unit though. better performance an better price. Use a Crane Cams fireball coil to maximize the spark output


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_
exactly http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif id use the Mallory unit though. better performance an better price. Use a Crane Cams fireball coil to maximize the spark output









which mallory unit? theres a bunch in the 6 series...


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (twopointone)*

the 6AL has the rev limiter which would be a good thing to have with your type setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif the basic 6A is what i generally recomend.
for the coil, if you order from summit or jegs, an they tell you its back-ordered. Call them an say you have a race next weekend an need it before then, an magically they may have one in stock







(im serious though!)


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## boardrider247 (Sep 19, 2005)

Joe is this the msd unit you use?

http://www.msdignition.com/tc_1.htm


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## elias (Dec 4, 2005)

any chance at all that a vac advanced dizzy from a 1.7 would fit on a 16v?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (elias)*

nope.


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## joezeeuw (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: (boardrider247)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boardrider247* »_Joe is this the msd unit you use?

http://www.msdignition.com/tc_1.htm


Yup


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (joezeeuw)*

seems like that runs the same adv as the saab dizzy?


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## joezeeuw (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: (Digital K.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Digital K.* »_seems like that runs the same adv as the saab dizzy?

Not sure. The advance I mentioned above was for the MSD unit. Did you think I was talking about the Saab?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (joezeeuw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *joezeeuw* »_
Not sure. The advance I mentioned above was for the MSD unit. Did you think I was talking about the Saab? 

I did yes, it'd be good data to have. I'll have to check w/ some saab friends I suppose.


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## OnTheRunDCI (Jan 24, 2004)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

MSD 6al, timing computer, Stock ICM, stock dist http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 155 (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: (OnTheRunDCI)*

go with msd 6a and timing computer and the programable timing box and wire it up like this should work great


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## 155 (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: (OnTheRunDCI)*

go with msd 6a and timing computer and the programable timing box and wire it up like this should work great
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3748875


_Modified by 155 at 2:59 PM 4-23-2008_


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (155)*

because you'll eventually cash the saab parts in for a 6a and a 8980 timing computer here is my diagram. it retards the timing 20* at idle then reduces the retardation as the RPMs climb. you'll just be hard pressed to find a Saab dizzy that doesn't leak.


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## SnoRabbit (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

I've got two types of ICM's, will either work? I believe the one on the right came out of my 78' Rabbit and the on on the left came out of my 81' Caddy.


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (SnoRabbit)*

they should both work. some of them have fewer connectors on them so you need to make sure you have 7 connectors on the icm.
On my diagram I didnt' list the ICM connections in order because it would make the diagram look like a spiderweb. so, on the ICM or plug you will see numbers for each wire. 1-7 
I'm gonna gander at mine to see which one I have. I think I have the one on the right.


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## SnoRabbit (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

One more question with this setup. Do I need the vacuum line that runs from the brake booster to the ports on the intake? Just out of curiosity what is this vacuum line used for?


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (SnoRabbit)*

that supply's the booster with vacum for the power breaks, you need that if you want your brakes to work as they should


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

good info in here.
would all the msd info apply to a digital 6 plus Msd box?


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## akabigmike (May 2, 2003)

if i remember correctly...the saab dizzy hits the break booster...


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (akabigmike2)*

not if you use manual brakes. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

you can use the fiat cap to help with cleaance problems also.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

now I just need to source an 8v knock box....

also this diagram says stuff about switches. I am assuming WOT and idle switches. obviously my carbs dont have this....

http://www.driversfound.com/sc...m.htm


_Modified by Digital K. at 10:45 PM 6-16-2008_


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

tis an easy question I think?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

The idle switch tells the ECU to ignore the vacuum reading from the map sensor in the box, and sets to a locked down timing. Helps keep a stable idle. People have run without it, but I find my setup seems to hunt a little bit right now without it. Not sure what the WOT switch does, since it's not for fuel enrichment. I'm tempted to say it alters the way the ECU listens to the knock sensor above a certain RPM to filter out valvetrain noise above the torque peak (where it is most likely to knock). That's how I usually set up a knock sensor when I do standalone tuning, and so far so good







. 
Retrofitting the switches is cake with a bit of thought, I'd definitely add them in. Mine will be going in this week







.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (B4S)*

I didnt think the old cis-e setup had these switches. I know that if the idle switch was missing on the motronic CIS setup, it would run like ass.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

here is what I have. correct? the diagram only shows one wire going to the ICM...seems odd?










_Modified by Digital K. at 4:58 PM 6-17-2008_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

the others are ground an to the coil iirc


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Digital K.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Digital K.* »_I didnt think the old cis-e setup had these switches. I know that if the idle switch was missing on the motronic CIS setup, it would run like ass.

It does have the switches, they all do. That white/blue wire is the idle switch wire, and the black/blue is the WOT IIRC. 
If you want headache-free...put in the switches.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (B4S)*

I'll have to figure out some way to mount them I guess. will try it w/out first


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (VWralley)*

the two browns goto ground the black and green goto the coil green to the - side if I remember right... I think the red/yellow needs a switched+12v but make sure it stays on while cranking...
that also looks like a 16v knock box correct? 

the one I am using looks like this from an 8v:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Pats16vGTI)*

ya its a 16v one. I have it wired up to key on power and such. will post up w/ results. have a long ways to go yet.


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (Digital K.)*

any luck??? I tried firing my setup today using the knock box wiring, I would only get spark every now and then. And sometimes constant spark with the key on... I rewired everything with out the knock box, and just used an msd box and a icm and it fired right up!
used this diagram:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Pats16vGTI)*

i'll take a pic of my diagram its hand written. I havent tried for spark yet, still need key on power to the coil


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Oh man...not sure if you've decided to use the microswitches or not, but I just mounted mine and fired up the car. The idle (even with unbalanced carbs and untouched mixture screws) is soooooooooo steady vs the way it was when I started it last week without them.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

i dont even know what that is.


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Digital K.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Digital K.* »_i dont even know what that is.

he wired in the throttle switches for idle and wot... 
B4S do you have a diagram of the wiring you wound up using?


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## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: ignition and carbs (Digital K.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Digital K.* »_whats the best setup for running timing and ignition w/ advance on a 16v w/ carbs? i've heard of using the motronic ecu, or knock boxes....just curious as to what you guys think.
Is there a vacuum advance 16v distributor? that would rule...

Older Electromotive systems work great.
Require use of 60-2 wheel though.
But timing will be more precise than using a distributor.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Pats16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pats16vGTI* »_
he wired in the throttle switches for idle and wot... 
B4S do you have a diagram of the wiring you wound up using?

I used the diagram off this page, except I wired pin 10 to ground. Worked great.
http://www.driversfound.com/sc...nsor/


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

ah, throttle switches. gotcha.


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: (Pats16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pats16vGTI* »_any luck??? I tried firing my setup today using the knock box wiring, I would only get spark every now and then. And sometimes constant spark with the key on... I rewired everything with out the knock box, and just used an msd box and a icm and it fired right up!
used this diagram:










What controls the timing here? You get no advance/retard?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

IIRC, that wiring diagram was for a car with a vacuum advance distributor, campaigned by WWR.


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Has anyone run a distributorless setup with their carbs?
I'm looking at something like the MSD DIS-2.
Not sure about triggering it. Crank trigger?
Not sure about coil packs yet either.
I wish Electromotive still made the HPX.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

The MSD DIS-2 isn't a stand alone distributer-less system, it's designed FOR distributorless cars. You'd need to set up an aftermarket ignition like MegaJolt (google it, I bet it's what you're after







), and add it in.


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Megajolt is basically what I want. Electromotive HPX is exactly what I want.
Any other DIS options?


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## horvath (May 29, 2006)

*Re:*

im re-wiring my car with a painless harness. can i still integrate my stock icu and run a 6a?


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Anyone familiar with any other distributorless ignition setups with their carbs?


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*

i have an electromotive hpx which is an earlier version of the xdi. i f you can spend the money, there is no use looking at anything else.


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (candm)*

Want to part with it?


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*

sorry but it is in a fully restored rabbit that has not seen this site. but realistically, the other way to go incorporates an aftermarket ignition and seperate timing steup, so by the time you are done you spending at least $400-$500, and the xdi ( newer version ) is about $700. there are a few other things to do with it for the install but once its in, it is so simple and you have a very hot spark- very important with carbs, and a very simple way to adjust your timing and other info. good luck


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## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, I've looked into the XDI and really, I just want the HPX.


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## [email protected] (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Justin 123* »_Megajolt is basically what I want. Electromotive HPX is exactly what I want.
Any other DIS options?

You can also build an ignition-only Megasquirt for DIS applications. Just don't connect the injector drivers. (The same holds true for other SEM systems that support DIS, too - you could use some Haltech systems, for example, in this application.)


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