# 2.5 Timing Chain May Have Jumped - Looking for info



## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

So I got a call from my sister and her husband who own a 2006 VW Jetta with the 2.5 engine with approx 125,000km or 77,000 miles. Apparently the car was running fine in the morning but when they left the house to run some errands in the afternoon the car would not start, the engine cranks but will not fire. I had her husband check for spark (good there), fuel (good there) and air flow (seems to be good as well). 

Now I am not that familiar with the 2.5 as I have only owned the 1.8T myself but from what I have managed to dig up while searching online there seems to be a pretty big issue with these timing chains jumping due to a failed tensioner and many people have experienced some outrageous bills/quotes to have this fixed. Their car is being taken to the shop this coming Wednesday to be diagnosed but I thought I would post something on vortex to see if anyone who has experience with the 2.5 could shed a little more light on the subject. 

In my opinion thats pretty sad if the timing chain on these cars are slipping due to a failed tensioner resulting in possible damage to the head, valves, pistons, etc. pretty crappy design if you ask me. I owned a '97 Cavalier back in the day with the 2.4 and that car had well over 300,000 km on it before it was sold and that engine was strong, never an issue with the timing chain or tensioner and that the tensioner ran off of oil pressure as well. 

Any ways, I would appreciate any feedback or advice you are able to give. As I said, the the online research I have done it is not looking to good. 

Thanks in advance.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Could be the timing chain, see what the shop says. Tough for anyone on here to tell what actually happened without looking at the car. Post an update when you hear.

Some early 2.5s had early failures and some go forever without issues (I just saw a post in another thread with someone who had almost 200k on an '05.5 2.5 with no issues).


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## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2014)

This seems to be more common in early 06 2.5s. The issue was somewhat fixed in the following years and then redesigned for the MK6 I believe.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

mhjett said:


> Could be the timing chain, see what the shop says. Tough for anyone on here to tell what actually happened without looking at the car. Post an update when you hear.
> 
> Some early 2.5s had early failures and some go forever without issues (I just saw a post in another thread with someone who had almost 200k on an '05.5 2.5 with no issues).


Yeah it really is hard to say what the issue is without taking the time to diagnose it. Unfortunately they live a couple hours away from me so we will have to await the shops diagnosis. I was just reading today that the upper chain seems to be the biggest issue, the tensioner fails and guides wear prematurely cause to much slack in the chain, most people end up replacing both upper and lower at that point. 

I will be sure to post the diagnosis once I hear from them, I sure hope this is not going to be the problem.



[email protected] said:


> This seems to be more common in early 06 2.5s. The issue was somewhat fixed in the following years and then redesigned for the MK6 I believe.


Yes I have noticed '05-06 models typically have the issue. Apparently the tensioner was redesigned in '07 or 08 I do believe and that is the part they now supply for the earlier years as a repair.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

Well the update on my sisters car confirms my thoughts, according to the shop the car is at right now their report is that timing chain broke and destroyed the engine $3,500 - $5,000 to replace the motor. They pulled the head and say that is not even worth salvaging, too much damage. So clearly the 2.5 engine produced in '05-06 is a piece of crap and nothing more then a fancy boat anchor, so much for building a quality car VW. Pretty sad when a '97 Cavalier 2.4 engine can outlast a VW...that certainly does not instill much confidence for me. 

If there is anyone in the Toronto area who could recommend someone or a shop that would be able to swap the engine please let me know asap.


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## HelloMyNameIs (Aug 2, 2011)

So this was completely sudden, out of the blue? I thought there were obvious signs leading to chain skip & subsequent catastrophic head failure...like your motor sounding like can of marbles and a CEL from the tensioner. Kinda scary if that's the case.

FWIW, I know someone who owned late 90's cavalier...they would not agree with your statement lol


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Yeah, prior to leaping to boat anchor conclusions I'd be interested in the full service history of your sister's car. If it was indeed properly maintained for all of those 77k miles then yes, there'd be something to get upset about.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

Everything was fine with the car Friday, Saturday they went to do errands and the car started then quit almost right away and would crank after that but not fire. No CEL or anything prior that I am aware of. I had just seen them the weekend prior and everything was fine.

I guess, like any car, its just the luck of the draw. This does seem to be an issue though that VW should cover.


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## the snake 87 (May 26, 2013)

HelloMyNameIs said:


> So this was completely sudden, out of the blue? I thought there were obvious signs leading to chain skip & subsequent catastrophic head failure...like your motor sounding like can of marbles and a CEL from the tensioner. Kinda scary if that's the case.
> 
> FWIW, I know someone who owned late 90's cavalier...they would not agree with your statement lol


Exactly what happened to me. Chain got stretched and skipped on an incredibly cold start this February. 2005.5 2.5L here also, bought with 119k miles and it skipped at 124k miles. I bought the car from my mom in May of 2013 and got it back onto a proper maintenance schedule and thought I didn't have to worry about a thing. Got everything to spec and BAM, this happens. Car was an absolute tank too. I tried troubleshooting it at work, checking and moving around the coils (which were the latest revision since those also went bad) and even swapping the crank sensor and plugs for iridium ones thinking it was those for some reason. Nothing worked. Talked to my dad and he was calling around other shops and dealers and kept getting quotes over $2500. I would have done it myself but with school and work I needed it back ASAP. I told him I'm not taking my baby to any shop other than the german shop that's located downtown, and they had it out the door in 3 days (waiting for parts mainly, about 6-7 hours labor) and cost just less than $1400. Still a chunk of change, but it is not something you want to skimp on and want the best to work on to make sure it's done right. Thank god that none of my valves were bent.

It's not uncommon. It's too common in fact. This issue was fixed with the 2007 revision of the tensioners and then finalized in 2008 I believe. Now that it's fixed with the revised parts I shouldn't have to worry about anything and plan on actually doing an entire pull and rebuilt in a year or so and prepping it for a turbo. (If I don't want to do a 2.0T A3 Quattro manual drivetrain swap) lol

Still garbage VW never issued a TSB for them. There's been some lawsuits and settlements, but unlike the engine wiring harness and coils, this has been swept under the rug.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

At this point, anything they can save is going to be a huge help, but at the same time you most definitely want to make sure the job is done right with the latest revised parts, I completely agree. 

After a discussion with VW of Canada, they want the car taken to a VW dealer so it can be diagnosed by them and assessed for any type of warranty they may be able to apply. They said that if it was failure due to defective parts then VW may cover a portion or all of it. So at this point in time my sister really has nothing to lose, the car is off to VW this afternoon. 

Fingers crossed for a more positive outcome.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

BrendonA said:


> Everything was fine with the car Friday, Saturday they went to do errands and the car started then quit almost right away and would crank after that but not fire. No CEL or anything prior that I am aware of. I had just seen them the weekend prior and everything was fine.
> 
> I guess, like any car, its just the luck of the draw. This does seem to be an issue though that VW should cover.


Definitely have them pursue coverage through VW first, it's well worth a shot given this is a known issue and it's an expensive failure. Also, 77k miles is really low for something like this to happen.


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## the snake 87 (May 26, 2013)

BrendonA said:


> At this point, anything they can save is going to be a huge help, but at the same time you most definitely want to make sure the job is done right with the latest revised parts, I completely agree.
> 
> After a discussion with VW of Canada, they want the car taken to a VW dealer so it can be diagnosed by them and assessed for any type of warranty they may be able to apply. They said that if it was failure due to defective parts then VW may cover a portion or all of it. So at this point in time my sister really has nothing to lose, the car is off to VW this afternoon.
> 
> Fingers crossed for a more positive outcome.


Lucky for them then! The VW dealers in my area laughed at my claim, another reason why I wasn't about to let them handle my car.


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## HelloMyNameIs (Aug 2, 2011)

the snake 87 said:


> Exactly what happened to me. Chain got stretched and skipped on an incredibly cold start this February. 2005.5 2.5L here also, bought with 119k miles and it skipped at 124k miles. I bought the car from my mom in May of 2013 and got it back onto a proper maintenance schedule and thought I didn't have to worry about a thing. Got everything to spec and BAM, this happens. Car was an absolute tank too. I tried troubleshooting it at work, checking and moving around the coils (which were the latest revision since those also went bad) and even swapping the crank sensor and plugs for iridium ones thinking it was those for some reason. Nothing worked. Talked to my dad and he was calling around other shops and dealers and kept getting quotes over $2500. I would have done it myself but with school and work I needed it back ASAP. I told him I'm not taking my baby to any shop other than the german shop that's located downtown, and they had it out the door in 3 days (waiting for parts mainly, about 6-7 hours labor) and cost just less than $1400. Still a chunk of change, but it is not something you want to skimp on and want the best to work on to make sure it's done right. Thank god that none of my valves were bent.
> 
> It's not uncommon. It's too common in fact. This issue was fixed with the 2007 revision of the tensioners and then finalized in 2008 I believe. Now that it's fixed with the revised parts I shouldn't have to worry about anything and plan on actually doing an entire pull and rebuilt in a year or so and prepping it for a turbo. (If I don't want to do a 2.0T A3 Quattro manual drivetrain swap) lol
> 
> Still garbage VW never issued a TSB for them. There's been some lawsuits and settlements, but unlike the engine wiring harness and coils, this has been swept under the rug.


Well that changes my view on this issue quite a bit then. My car is an '07MY (bought in Oct '06) with nearly 85K/miles, so the tensioner has been in my mind as something to be aware of. But like I said, I was also expecting some forewarning as well.

Does anyone know the specifics of the revised part (part number, revision code)? And if one were to pop open the chain housing, is excessive wear easily identifiable through visual inspection of the upper tensioner? 

Adam


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

mhjett said:


> Definitely have them pursue coverage through VW first, it's well worth a shot given this is a known issue and it's an expensive failure. Also, 77k miles is really low for something like this to happen.


Yeah, I told her it will be worth the $99 diagnostic that VW is going to do on the car to submit a claim...best case VW does something about it, worst case they are out another $99. At this point I think it is definitely worth a shot. 



the snake 87 said:


> Lucky for them then! The VW dealers in my area laughed at my claim, another reason why I wasn't about to let them handle my car.


See I have heard some great stories about VW dealers fighting for the customer and helping out, even if it is partial coverage, but then I have heard the very same thing you are saying that the dealer would not do a single thing to help you out. Its really too bad there wasnt some consistency with dealerships.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

HelloMyNameIs said:


> Well that changes my view on this issue quite a bit then. My car is an '07MY (bought in Oct '06) with nearly 85K/miles, so the tensioner has been in my mind as something to be aware of. But like I said, I was also expecting some forewarning as well.
> 
> Does anyone know the specifics of the revised part (part number, revision code)? And if one were to pop open the chain housing, is excessive wear easily identifiable through visual inspection of the upper tensioner?
> 
> Adam


It is my understanding that the tensioner is really the ultimate failure point here, I mean the chain doesnt stretch anywhere near enough to skip, it is when the tensioner loses oil pressure this allows to much slack in the chain...even for a brief moment but just enough that the chain can jump and be off by at least one tooth. 

If VW ends up fixing the car I will see if I am able to get the updated part numbers, unless someone on here already has them available.


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## the snake 87 (May 26, 2013)

Part numbers for reference

07K109217F - Upper chain tensioner <-- The one that goes bad
07K109510B - Upper chain guide
07K109467B - Lower chain tensioner

As you can see it's a F letter unlike the others which are B letters. I'm trying to find the original number and dates of revisions, but here is the number of some bulletins that relate to it

TB-01-12-04... NHTSA ID Number: 10043602
010615 ... NHTSA ID Number: 10020803

But when it comes to fixing the car, the original, unrevised parts are no longer available. It will be fixed with the revised parts no matter what.

EDIT: Found a TSB in a thread on here but for the coils. Still exact same symptoms. Wouldn't surprise me if they tried passing it off as coils first then had an "OH ****" moment where it was the tensioner instead lol

http://forums.vwvortex.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=494&d=1285885604

Still have yet to find a TSB that explicitly states the chain tensioner is bad like I mentioned above.


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## HelloMyNameIs (Aug 2, 2011)

^ Great info, thanks! :thumbup:

Adam


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

the snake 87 said:


> Part numbers for reference
> 
> 07K109217F - Upper chain tensioner <-- The one that goes bad
> 07K109510B - Upper chain guide
> ...


Interesting info, thanks. What I'd love to see is a VIN number breakdown of exactly when the tensioner was updated. My car, an '08, was built in Nov. '07 and from all I've read I'm pretty sure it has the updated tensioner but I've yet to read anything conclusive about exactly when the update occurred. ETKA might give a VIN split but I don't have access.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

the snake 87 said:


> Part numbers for reference
> 
> 07K109217F - Upper chain tensioner <-- The one that goes bad
> 07K109510B - Upper chain guide
> ...


Thanks for posting the part numbers...good info. 
I have been looking as well, both on here and everywhere else I can thin or and have yet to find a TSB for the tensioner. It will be interesting to see if one was ever issued.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

I found this TSB, but this applies to '08-13 models with the 2.0T engine...hmmm. Still have yet to find one for the 2.5.

_Service Bulletin Number : TB-15-12-01 Date of Bulletin : JUL 23, 2012
NHTSA Item Number : 10045560
Component : ENGINE
Summary :
VOLKSWAGEN: ALL MODELS EXPERIENCE THE TIMING CHAIN SLIPPING, RATTLING NOISES OF THE ENGINE AFTER STARTING, AND ENGINE FAILS TO START. 2008-13 ALL MODELS. *PE_


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## the snake 87 (May 26, 2013)

BrendonA said:


> I found this TSB, but this applies to '08-13 models with the 2.0T engine...hmmm. Still have yet to find one for the 2.5.
> 
> _Service Bulletin Number : TB-15-12-01 Date of Bulletin : JUL 23, 2012
> NHTSA Item Number : 10045560
> ...


Saw that one too. There's even an in-depth thread on th GolfMK6 forums with diagrams and what not in regards to this issue. Wish someone did that for the 2.5L lol


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## vrsick147 (Jun 18, 2007)

problems is still not fixed, i have repair at least 3-4 13 and 14 passat with a 2.5 engine cuba after the lower tensioner seized in the compressed position causing a chain rattle but the engine still runs


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

So, a little update on the car. 

The car arrived at the VW dealer yesterday afternoon and the technician ran a diagnostics on the car at which time there were about 12-15 codes being displayed. They proceeded with their investigation, compression test, etc...sure enough there was no compression, obvious sign that the timing chain jumped. Next they inspected the timing chain, guides and tensioner and to their surprise everything was good, there was good tension on the chain and no worn guides. So at that time they rotated the engine only to find out that the intake cam was not turning...wouldnt you know it, the intake cam gear bolt backed out enough allowing the cam gear to spin which then resulted in the intake vales making contact with the pistons (good reason for zero compression in all cylinders). Luckily enough this happened at idle and cause very minimal damage to the top of the pistons. They pulled the head off of the car this morning to confirm their findings and have submitted a claim to see if VW is going to help out with the bill. 

This now explains why there was no warning, no noise from the chain slapping around or anything like that. None of the tech's at the dealership have ever seen this happen before...first time for everything I guess.

At this point we are not expecting that they are going to cover the repair in full but it would be great if they were willing to pick up part of the tab, time will tell.


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## the snake 87 (May 26, 2013)

BrendonA said:


> So, a little update on the car.
> 
> The car arrived at the VW dealer yesterday afternoon and the technician ran a diagnostics on the car at which time there were about 12-15 codes being displayed. They proceeded with their investigation, compression test, etc...sure enough there was no compression, obvious sign that the timing chain jumped. Next they inspected the timing chain, guides and tensioner and to their surprise everything was good, there was good tension on the chain and no worn guides. So at that time they rotated the engine only to find out that the intake cam was not turning...wouldnt you know it, the intake cam gear bolt backed out enough allowing the cam gear to spin which then resulted in the intake vales making contact with the pistons (good reason for zero compression in all cylinders). Luckily enough this happened at idle and cause very minimal damage to the top of the pistons. They pulled the head off of the car this morning to confirm their findings and have submitted a claim to see if VW is going to help out with the bill.
> 
> ...


That's... mind boggling... :sly:

Even though there's minimal damage to the pistons, I'd personally have a new head and pistons installed along with chains and what not.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

the snake 87 said:


> That's... mind boggling... :sly:
> 
> Even though there's minimal damage to the pistons, I'd personally have a new head and pistons installed along with chains and what not.


In an ideal situation that would certainly be the way to go, I agree 100%. However, by the time you do all that you might as well just go out and buy another car considering the price of the head alone is $4,800 from the dealer...especially not knowing how much is actually going to be covered by VW. It would be more cost effective to buy a used motor with lower km and install that, I know if it was my car that is what I would be doing. In any case, hopefully they will hear from the dealer today and they will have some good news (fingers crossed).


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Wow, interesting development. Never heard of that happening. I wonder if it was totally just a fluke or if somehow someone had worked on the engine at some point and improperly tightened that bolt.


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## the snake 87 (May 26, 2013)

mhjett said:


> Wow, interesting development. Never heard of that happening. I wonder if it was totally just a fluke or if somehow someone had worked on the engine at some point and improperly tightened that bolt.


Seems possible. Improper torque spec perhaps.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

mhjett said:


> Wow, interesting development. Never heard of that happening. I wonder if it was totally just a fluke or if somehow someone had worked on the engine at some point and improperly tightened that bolt.


Hard to say really but it is certainly a possibility, I mean they bought the car with about 83,000 km / 51,000 miles on it so who knows what life it had prior to them owning it. I do know that VW ran the VIN and shows no record of any timing work having been done to the car, but you never know who else may have done work on it.


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## BrendonA (Feb 27, 2012)

Well I just got a call from my sister to inform me that VW of Canada has declined any coverage towards the repair of her car, they have stated that the car is to old and mileage to high despite the technicians and warranty advisor stating that this should have never happened...so now she is on the hook for the full amount. They are currently putting together a quote for the repair so we will see what kind of scary number comes back.


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