# Help setting up MS3 V3.0 for PnP on an ABA



## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

I have a 96 GTi 2.0l ABA that I am attempting to make a true plug and play system for. My main reason for the PnP is, that I race the car competitively, and the rules basically say I can use a standalone, as long as it fits in the original box.

So.

VR 60-2 sensor

1 window hall sensor

Stock coil

Stock sensors

I will be adding a couple sensors to the mix, but they MUST not affect the stock wiring (I need to be able to drop a stock ECU back in at any time). These include but are not limited to a MAP sensor, and a wideband 02. I'm using a MK4 exhaust manifold, so I'll have an extra 02 bung.

I've currently built the board, but am stuck on a couple areas, the tach input, and the coil output.

I'm assuming that it's a VR input + pullup, since it has a 1 window hall sensor?

And I'm totally lost on what kind of coil the stock MK3 has...

Other questions I've yet to answer:

Is the OBD2 TB a standard stepper IAC? I believe it's 4 wires..


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

notso2slo said:


> I have a 96 GTi 2.0l ABA that I am attempting to make a true plug and play system for. My main reason for the PnP is, that I race the car competitively, and the rules basically say I can use a standalone, as long as it fits in the original box.
> 
> So.
> 
> ...


If you are planing on using sequential injection then you'd set things up as dual wheel w/missing tooth. To do sequential you'll need an MS3/X or some kind of driver board for the injectors as the mainboard is set up with only 2 drivers/ batch injection. If you just want to batch fire things then set things up as single wheel missing tooth and don't worry about the 1 window hall in the dizzy.

The stock ABA coil has a module built onto it. However if it were me I'd bypass the module and direct fire the coil with the BIP373 provided in the kit.

The OBD2 throttlebody is not stepper but 2 wire PWM...... HOWEVER there hasn't been a whole lot of success using it with MS. Paul (need_a_VR6) has had some luck and I've been messing with them but no luck on my end yet.

What kind of racing are you doing with the car out of curiosity?


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

I do autocross, in ST class. I guess all the IT racing is the same way, if you can stuff it into the stock ECU, it's legal.

I won't be using sequential fueling or an MS3X, the MS3 is tight enough fit.

And what do you mean by "then set things up as single wheel missing tooth and don't worry about the 1 window hall in the dizzy"

It's a 60-2 toothed wheel for the crank VR sensor, is that all I need?

And how am I to set up the BIP373? As a single high current spark output? And do you have any description as to what kind of module is built into the coil? Why wouldn't I want to use it?

And what problems are there running the 2-wire PWM for the throttle body?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

notso2slo said:


> I do autocross, in ST class. I guess all the IT racing is the same way, if you can stuff it into the stock ECU, it's legal.
> 
> I won't be using sequential fueling or an MS3X, the MS3 is tight enough fit.
> 
> ...


Actually SCCA club racing finally gave in and allowed open ECU's in Improved touring. I've squirted 3 ITB MK3s.
The only rpm input to MS you will need is the 60-2 crank sensor input, so in the ignition settings menu for MS3 ( in tuner studio) you will want to use "single wheel with missing teeth"

The igniton module built into the mk3 coil fails on a regular basis, I have a dozen or so bad ones (coils) laying around. The BIP373 is just about unkillable. As far as settings go I suggest you do a little more reading about MS and ignition options.

The problem with the OBD2 throttle with the built in IAC is that it's very hard to get them to respond correctly (and sometimes at all). What usually happens (at least all I have been able to do) is that you idle at 500 rpms (closed) or 4000rpms (open).


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You shouldn't need to add any wiring. MAP is in the ecu, just add the vacuum line. The wbo2 you can just use the factory 4 pin o2 connector for power, signal and grounds. All the other factory sensors work (clt, iat, crank, etc). 

I have gotten the obd2 tbs idle valve to work on ms2 and ms1 with a freq multiplier board, but only open loop. You can always go to an obd1 manifold and ISV and just use the wiring for the obd2 valve cut and swapped over. 

The early vr6 coil is drop in for the aba and more robust. You will need to do some wiring mods at the coil to use a bip373. Not sure exactly what is allowed for you to do to give better advice.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Technically, all emissions equipment has to be present and functional, so I can't go swapping in different modules. On my 96, the only other emissions equipment that is controlled by the computer is the evap purge valve, so I also need to look into making that functional, though I'm less worried about that.

And I can read the megamanual, I'm having more difficulties trying to figure out what the VW stuff does!

Can you explain how the Bosch ignition module works? I don't mind bypassing it, but keep in mind, I'm still trying to make it possible to drop a stock ECU back in at any given time and have it functional.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

"looks functional" and actually functional are very different! All MS versions have a boost controller duty table that could be used to control the purge valve on tsp vs rpm. You could also just do it on/off with a generic output. There is a thread (professor jeff's!) in ms3 development on msextra.com about a specific purge feature, but I am unsure of the timeline of it.

The ignition module is just a hugh current transistor used to fire the coil. On the ABA its on the coil, the BIP would functionally replace it. You can cut the traces and disable it but then a stock ecu wont be plug and play.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Like I said, I'll probably worry about the evap purge valve later. I just pulled apart a bad coil to look at the module. Too bad I don't really know what everything is...

Ok, so how do I use the stock Bosch coil without cutting the leads?

And I'll do some research on how the valve works. I have a VAG com, the bentley REPAIR manual (not just the normal service manual) and a voltmeter.

Talk to me more about this frequency multiplier board? I apologize for my lack of electrical knowledge, if you just want to send me a link I'll do my own reading.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Looking at this dismantled coil, I just realized it would be easy enough to solder a wire onto the leads for the coil that bypass the control module. Still interested in getting the module working, but that might be the easier way to go...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You have two choices:

1 Stock ign module, mod the MS to trigger it. You need a 1k pullup to 5v on d14 and then run from there to a spare pin. From there the signal wire goes to the center ign module pin. 

2 Delete the module (cut internal leads or solder to them) and use a BIP instead. 

For the purge valve I know its just pwm controlled, but I am not sure what the parameters are. I do kmow its only active during closed loop fueling. 

The freq multiplier board just takes a signal at a spec freq and steps it up at the same duty cycle. The obd2 tb likes around 200hz and ms1 cant put out that freq with enough resolutiln for control. Ms2 can, so you wont need it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You have two choices:
> 
> 1 Stock ign module, mod the MS to trigger it. You need a 1k pullup to 5v on d14 and then run from there to a spare pin. From there the signal wire goes to the center ign module pin.
> 
> ...


VW purge valves operate best at ~ 15Hz. Ideally yeah you want it operating only during CL operation. An MS3 canister purge feature is probably going to be developed. Right now I run it all of the time with generic PWM and keep the DutyCycle down ( 50% max) so that EGO correction doesn't get out of hand. It works pretty well, I'm see better city mpg.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You have two choices:
> 
> 1 Stock ign module, mod the MS to trigger it. You need a 1k pullup to 5v on d14 and then run from there to a spare pin. From there the signal wire goes to the center ign module pin.


Ok, I have a 1k, but the rest of your instructions are confusing me (again, apologies on the noob status). So I get that I use a jumper wire with the resister inline that goes between 2 points. But what points? All the assembly instructions keep going off on using the high output ignition module.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#bosch

That's the circuit, I use 1k but 750 is listed there. You can use any spare output pin (SPR, IAC, IGN, etc) just make sure where you go on the other side of the harness matches.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Ok, just for clarity, what goes to pin 1 and 3 of the Bosch? I'm assuming ground and key on, but which to which pin?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

On the 7 pin or your 3 pin aba? If you plan to use the stock coil dont sweat the details, just make sure the signal wire goes to the ctr pin.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Ok, I'll let you know when I have it all built. Life is busy right now, might not get to it till next week.

As far as frequencies and duty cycles for the PWM, is there a good starting point? I can also set up a bench test with a stock ECU (I have extra harnesses, throttle bodies, and even access to an oscilloscope) to see what it puts out at different inputs. Has anyone else done that before?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That would be a good test, I've never seen that done before.. at least with the data published.

I would use Jeff's suggestion of 50% duty at lower loads, tapering off to 0 up high load/rpm. You want it mostly in the cruise/steady state areas of the map.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

A little off topic, but the msextra forums are being hella slow...

So while playing with all my setting, I started to have a glitch with my MS3. The RPM kept cutting out once in a while, and it got worse and worse, and now all I get is the occasional blip on the RPM. So looking into troubleshooting, I found out that D14 is supposed to be spark output, and D15 is supposed to be related to the cold startup. No matter my settings, my D14 is (almost) always lit, but it flickers at an erratic pace. And then the D15 will randomly come on. Any suggestions on where to start with the troubleshooting? The JimStim RPM output test shows constant RPM signal.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You read steady rpm in the tuning software when it happens, or is ot spotty too?


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Spotty in the software, it's not just the spark or injector out. The injector lights flicker when the RPM does. I did note that when it first started dropping out, it would only light up one of the injector lights a couple of times before it stopped firing them, I found that a bit odd...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sounds like an input problem.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

I would assume that too, but any idea why my D14 is acting weird? It seems like they're unrelated problems, but you never know. And what's the best way to check the input? Will I see anything on a regular voltmeter with a VR type signal? I can track down the circuits and test things, but I just don't know what to test for.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

So I think I have the board working, and I got the throttle body on my current Motronic hooked up to an oscilloscope. Not the most competent on one of those, but I measured the frequency at 2.5khz, which would explain why people can't seem to get them to work. MS3 runs up to 1.khz. 

It also runs at about 2.3 volts between the two wires, not sure what that means in terms of PWM.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

notso2slo said:


> So I think I have the board working, and I got the throttle body on my current Motronic hooked up to an oscilloscope. Not the most competent on one of those, but I measured the frequency at 2.5khz, which would explain why people can't seem to get them to work. MS3 runs up to 1.khz.
> 
> It also runs at about 2.3 volts between the two wires, not sure what that means in terms of PWM.


 HMMMM I _think_ JBperf has a freq multiplier. 2.3V = ~19% duty cycle.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

Yep, saw that. Gonna order one tonight, see how she works.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

notso2slo said:


> Yep, saw that. Gonna order one tonight, see how she works.


 Keep us posted on your progress and results. :thumbup:


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

at 2.5khz, a 156hz frequency with a 16x multiplier should get me pretty close. 

Just a warning, progress is slow on my MS, I'm spending most of my time building a chumpcar


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I dont think it needs to be that fast.


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## notso2slo (May 1, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I dont think it needs to be that fast.


 Don't think it needs to be 2.5khz? Why do you say that? What frequency do you run yours at? And with what success?


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