# MS2v3 Assembly Qs



## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, I have a few questions regarding the MS2v3 assembly process if you don't mind answering. (for 12v VR6 / msd coilpack alternative / FI application)

I went ahead of the install manual and inserted all capacitors into the board (as per diagram) and bent the legs slightly outward so they would stay in, I also did this with the majority of resistors. I now read the steps in the manual and saw this:


> Note: R11 and R10 form part of the EGO input circuit (with C10). It is very important that you do NOT install a capacitor across the sensor input before R11 (C10 comes after R10 and R11 and is fine). Some people have recommended adding such a capacitor to 'smooth' the sensor input. This will cause problems, especially with wide band analog outputs such as you find on Innovate's LC-1.
> 
> Also, if you have a wideband sensor/controller, be sure to ground the controller to the same point as MegaSquirt!


I currently have all of the above inserted but not soldered into the board (C10, R10, R11) Can they all be soldered in?




> 22. Now you need to make a decision on the first 'optional' component: if you are going to use an IAC stepper motor with MegaSquirt-II, you must install a jumper from the hole marked S12C to the hole marked JS9 (+12C). These are on the bottom side of the board, on the DB9 side of the processor. DO NOT INSTALL THIS JUMPER FOR NON-MegaSquirt-II APPLICATIONS - IT WILL DESTROY THE PROCESSOR!!


Do I need to follow this step (optional) and if I do does 'installing a jumper' mean using a piece of the provided wire to connect the JS9 hole to the S12C hole?



> 65. It is choice time again. In this case, you will decide whether to populate the high-current ignition driver circuit. This circuit can be used to drive a single coil in a distributor application. In conjunction with an appropriate input signal (from a VR, Hall, or optical sensor, or even points), it allows you to eliminate a separate ignition module, such as a GM HEI 7 or 8 pin module, and run the coil directly from MegaSquirt.


Do I populate the high-current ignition driver circuit or not?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Why not just follow the manual steps, easier to not miss a step.

1. yes
2.depends, yes
3.yes, you can but you don't have to if you are using another method of triggering.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

1) yes
2) if you have MS2, yes, use a piece of wire 
3) are you direct driving the msd coils are retaining the stock ignition amp?


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

I am keeping the stock amp, put together some of the board today.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If using the stock amp use this circuit: 

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#bosch


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Broke a transistor leg doh! going to pick one up from a local electronics shop later... very dissapointed with my mistake


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Replacement transistor arrived and installed. :beer:

Would there be any advantages to direct driving the ignition coils through megasquirt and not using the stock amp?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Not really performance is the same from what I can tell in back to back testing.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Where exactly is the IGN pin in this diagram?










progress pics:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

IGN is just a via, it's labeled on the bottom of the board, it's near Q16, it brings whatever it's connected to out to Pin36 on the DB37.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Thanks for the help so far, moving on what else am I missing.. Would I run the same board mods on my MS2 v3.0 board as I see on your site with the MS1 v3.75? (need_a_VR6)

-tach out
-fidle
-maf
-smog pump / cel shift light
-launch

http://kptuned.com/2009/02/24/1995-gti-vr6-on-megasquirt/



Pics for clicks


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

3.57 would be a bit different.

For a VR6 minimum mods usually are:
3x spark output from LED's for stock coilpack
tach output circuit
TIP120 ISV mod


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Would I take spark from locations (Spark A/B/C) in the above diagram? What would I connect these to? In the manual under bosch ignition I read lots of stuff about direct driving the coils, as I am going to retain my stock amp which section would I follow? 

Also I google'd and found a thread http://the-corrado.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70707 where someone has linked TSEL -> VROUTINV AND VRIN -> TSEL on their MS1V3.0 VR6. Would I also need to connect these two together with two wires going from TSEL to VROUTINV and VRIN?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Talk about some robbed content in that link... doh.

Here is the full writeup on the coilpack: http://kptuned.com/2009/02/24/1995-gti-vr6-on-megasquirt/

To drive the stock amp you just use a 1k resistor (where 750 is listed in the pic) across each LED, and then run from that same point to spare pins on the DB37.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Ignition triggers are from the LED’s but the 3.57 has internal 1k pullups, the triggers com from PAD1, PAD2, and PAD3 for D14-16 respectively.
> 
> Similar to this circuit, but for each LED using a 1k pullup:












I don't understand, what connections do I need to make? Is the 750R needed? Here is what I got out of the above quote:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That's it. Also there's 5v on the right of R24,25,28 that's physically easier to get to.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Would you happen to know what function the resistors we use for the 3 pullups serve? 

Progress:
I have connected the following:
VRIN - TSEL 
VROUT - TSEL
S12C - JS9(+12C)
on the 3.0 board
(is this correct?)

Next step..









Is 'tacho' the TACHSELECT?
What is +12 Ignition in this diagram?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

VRIN should go to TACHSELECT (they are in the corner by the map sensor, close together).
VROUT (or VROUTINV) goes to TSEL.

For the tach, on MS2 you can use one of the stepper outputs (IAC1 or IAC2) right to a spare pin to drive the stock tach (thanks Prof for the tip!)


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Paul, what you are saying is that you can connect JS0 to a DB37 directly without using the tacho circuit in the proto area? :what:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> VRIN should go to TACHSELECT (they are in the corner by the map sensor, close together).
> VROUT (or VROUTINV) goes to TSEL.
> 
> For the tach, on MS2 you can use one of the stepper outputs (IAC1 or IAC2) right to a spare pin to drive the stock tach (thanks Prof for the tip!)


Uhhh let me verify that one tonight.... I know the Stepper outputs will run an AUTOMETER Tach not sure about a low voltage stock VDO tach.... but I've still got my test bench set up to do tach tests so I'll check and post my results. 

It probably will though. The stock VDO low voltage tach WILL run off of the low voltage driver and the relay based high voltage driver both.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Ok I have verified it on my test bench. The stepper outputs from an MS2 or MS3 WILL directly drive a VW (VDO) low voltage (ECU driven) tach. They will also run an autometer or stewart warner aftermarket tach directly. They will NOT drive a high voltage (coil driven) tach. The high voltage relay based tach drive in th MS extra manuals does work BUT bench test first with the relay contacts unmolested. If you can't get the contacts to buzz try a different relay. You may need to try a bunch.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> VRIN should go to TACHSELECT (they are in the corner by the map sensor, close together).
> VROUT (or VROUTINV) goes to TSEL.
> 
> For the tach, on MS2 you can use one of the stepper outputs (IAC1 or IAC2) right to a spare pin to drive the stock tach (thanks Prof for the tip!)


Corrected my error, jumpered (VROUT - TSEL) and (VRIN - TACHSELECT)
Soldered the 3 pullups like so:










Next is the tacho.. 









From what I read in the Prof's post I do not need to make this circuit? Just jumper (IAC1A - JS0) is this correct?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Prof315 said:


> Ok I have verified it on my test bench. The stepper outputs from an MS2 or MS3 WILL directly drive a VW (VDO) low voltage (ECU driven) tach. They will also run an autometer or stewart warner aftermarket tach directly. They will NOT drive a high voltage (coil driven) tach. The high voltage relay based tach drive in th MS extra manuals does work BUT bench test first with the relay contacts unmolested. If you can't get the contacts to buzz try a different relay. You may need to try a bunch.


WOW, that is fantastic!
Now, I have already done the tach circuit. Should I keep it, or should I just remove it and use just the wire?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

acee_dub said:


> Corrected my error, jumpered (VROUT - TSEL) and (VRIN - TACHSELECT)
> Soldered the 3 pullups like so:
> 
> 
> ...


Correct the raw 50% duty cycle signal generated by JS0 (IAC1A) will run a VW factory low voltage tach.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

HidRo said:


> WOW, that is fantastic!
> Now, I have already done the tach circuit. Should I keep it, or should I just remove it and use just the wire?


Keep it.... it works and pulling stuff off the board is a pain.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Ok!
I'll keep it I guess then!! This is a triple circuit board, right?
2 surface and 1 in the middle?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Actually I believe the V3.0 and 3.57 boards are 4 layer.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Prof315 said:


> Uhhh let me verify that one tonight....


Sorry about that, after you had posted last time I tested my Mk3 VR6 tach with the MS3x circuit as well as the MS2 stepper output. Both worked fine (though my car didn't run with the MS3/3x removed  ) :thumbup:


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Can someone give me detailed instructions on what is needed to make the 'TIP120 ISV mod'


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#Fidle

Under option 2


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#Fidle
> 
> Under option 2


I actually leave the flyback diode out and put it in the IAC harness near the connector like an A/C clutch coil diode. Works fine that way.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That's fine too, works the same both ways.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

:wave:
Haven't done any work on this for a long time, today I completed the tach circuit and idle (tip122 circuit)

tach circuit was made according to this diagram:









for tip122 idle i did the following:








and r39 is jumpered under the board

is this correct?


I also ordered a mapdaddy 4bar map sensor which is now in the mail and a jimstim kit, next step I guess would be to test the MS unit?


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

All is well so far, installing software now.. thanks to all you've been a great help. :beer:


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Back on the mission... I hooked up my MS unit to the car using my harness and it primed the fuel pump and connected to MegaTune where the engine speed (RPM) gauge flew up to 65,000~ rpm and the O2 was also maxed out. I think it is because of errors in my harness, here is what I've got so far: 

Motronic T68 / MS DB37 / Function 
36 20 Intake Air Temp Sensor (+ve) 
14 21 Coolant Temp Sensor (+ve) 
41 22 Throttle Position Sensor (+ve) 
20 23 Heated Oxygen Sensor (+ve) 
67 24 VR (+ve) 
68 2 VR Shield (-ve) 
22 25 Tach (IAC1A) 
23 28 PWM 12v 
53 30 FIdle 
3,24,26 32,33 INJ A 
2,4,25 34,35 INJ B 
6 37 Fuel Pump Relay 

The following (listed below) I am missing, my DB37 harness does not have a MAF,CEL,Fan/Smog Relay or Heated O2 Relay anywhere on the pin out chart that came with it. :what: 

17 25 MAF 
5 27 CEL 
49 31 Fan/Smog Relay 
28 37 Heated O2 Relay 

23 27 12v Supply 

8 3 Spark A Cyl 1/6 
52 4 Spark B Cyl 2/5 
60 5 Spark C Cyl 3/4 


Here is the Pin Out chart that came with my MSII Pig Tail Harness (v3.0) 
PIN#/Function 
2 ground shield 
7-9 ground 
17-19 ground 
20 iat/mat 
21 coolant 
22 tps 
23 o2 
24 ign 
25 iac1-a 
26 tps vref 
27 iac1-b 
28 12vcd 
29 iac2-a 
30 f idle 
31 iac2-b 
32 inj 1 
33 inj 1 
34 inj 2 
35 inj 2 
36 pin 36 
37 fuel pump 

Help!! This is the last roadblock before I can throw on my turbo :laugh:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

65000rpm and fp cycle is a config error. If you use ts and cycle power it will tell you why


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Fixed RPM it now reads 0 and the fuel pump stopped cycling, tps also works now and when I calibrated it, the full throttle ADC count was lower than closed throttle. 
reverse of 









The O2 is still maxed out at a reading of 20~ or more... is this normal for motor being off or should it be 0? Using the JimStim my O2 worked fine when playing with the pots. 











I have my sparks A/B/C pulled off the LEDs and jumpered into the IGN pin, how do I get 3 spark sources? Do I just split my IGN into three and solder to the Motronic connector?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

From what I remember ms2 is fune with reverse tps, ms1 I know for sure doesnt. 

You need to brinh each spatk output to an unused pin, ign, iac, spr. Any are fine just remember what is what.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Cool thanks  

did the following: 

D14 -> IAC1B (MS Pin #27) -> Motronic pin 8 Spark A (1/6) 
D15 -> IAC2A (MS Pin #29) -> Motronic pin 52 Spark B (2/5) 
D16 -> IAC2B (MS Pin #31) -> Motronic pin 60 Spark C (3/4) 

IAC1A (MS Pin #25) is my tach circuit -> Motronic pin 22 

Should this be enough to get it started? I am still missing the following: 

Motronic Pin # / Function 
17 MAF 
5 CEL 
49 Fan/Smog Relay 
28 Heated O2 Relay


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sounds like you got it. If you are using the stock O2 wiring for your wideband you can just jumper 30/87 on the relay base, that circuit already gets power sourced by the fuel pump relay.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

When I crank, the tach in ts or the car does not move.. is this a config issue in TS? I am using someones tune from msruns. Using the JimStim I made it crank and idle using 60-2 tooth wheel dip switch setting.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Check the tooth logger and see what the signal lools like.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Ok I got it to read rpm, my VR -ve wire came loose off the motronic connector.. I tried to crank it.. it sounded.. intense where do i go from here to properly do this without blowing anything up :laugh: the msq file i was using is this one: http://www.msruns.com/download/file.php?id=6086 when i tried to load yours they errored in TS (i am using a different version of ms software i believe ms2 extra v3.10)


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Ms2 extra can port to other ms2/3 versions. You will get errors but they tend to self-resolve.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Okay, here is the output of loading it on my TS, I will burn it anyway.

426 Warnings:
Warning: injPwmT1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: baroCorr1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: egoCount1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: mapBins1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: egoDelta1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: fastIdleT1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: rpmk1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: cltType1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: nInjectors1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: divider1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: engineType1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.
Warning: twoStroke1 not in current configuration. Value ignored.

the maps still got loaded I think, would your tune be okay to do a start on? Is it normal for it to be rough on another motor or are there things I should check that could be set up wrong?


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Tried to start today and it would not go, so I added throttle and it still wouldn't idle.. Here is a tooth log. Doesn't look right :sly:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Email me your msq at kandpperformance at gmail dot com.


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

Mailed, is it a timing issue?


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## acee_dub (Jun 12, 2008)

I tried loading the new tune and cranking, it still does not want to start. I data logged the attempt if you could take a look at it... 

http://tinyurl.com/cranklog

My MS does not appear to be synced to the engine, going to try to figure out how to do this


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