# APR Stage 4 Build



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

As the title says, I am going to start a small thread on my APR stage 4 / motorsport build.

I am located in Israel and my car is a 2009 Seat Leon cupra, which is just another A5 floor plan car, identical mechanically to the Audi A3 and the GTI.

Here is the car: 

















The car comes with a stock K04 turbo, and the engine is almost the same as the GTI ED30 / S3 engines
.
The car was purchased new in Dec 2009 and when it had 300 miles on the clock was tuned to APR stage 1 and 1000 miles later to Stage 2+.
Although that supplied plenty of power, I had a burning need to get more.

I have read every thread on every forum regarding BT build and talked to plenty of suppliers and BT owners in order to get to a decision.

I use this car as a DD as well as track it, so my main consideration was power delivery over just pure numbers.

to make a long story short , I have decided to go with the Apr stage 3 route , but after many talks with the amazing guys at APR and their great distributer as well as a visit in APR HQ in Alabama I have changed my mind and we are now going on an all out stage 4 build.

My engine was taken out of the car and shipped to APR where it is now being completed and in the next few days will be shipped back to me.

My car is starting the prep work next week (many many items) and during October APR engineers and head Tech are flying over to Israel to get the engine installed.

In this thread I will follow the engine build, car prep and final result and will discuss for the first time exactly what a stage 4 is made of.
Hope it will make an interesting read, more updates soon.

Side note: Israeli readers please do not Link or Re-post this to any forums in Israel or your facebook pages.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Ok, before I start into the stage 4 build, just a short update of what's already on the car
.
Obviously I had the entire stg 2+ hardware, but the only thing that is going to stay is the APR HPFP
.
As for suspension, the car currently has a KW clubsport kit which is going to stay of-course.

At the current setup it is too stiff for our roads and in order to get the Damping/Rebound right new springs are currently on their way from KW in Germany.

As for anti roll Bars, I have both a set of APR as well as KW. Both of which are very different in strength and approach (KW is thicker up front compared to rear). I am not certain which I will use in the end, but I am leaning towards the APR set. I will make a final decision when the car is all set up

.
Some Pics:


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Nice in addition to stage 3 kit what exactly are you doing to the car?


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

i will post all details in the following days as they happen


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Man your going stage two to this... Wow your going to have a completely different car. Make sure you film the giant grin on your face first time to drive it properly tuned.

Oh and welcome to the big turbo family


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

thank you.

i have driven stage 3 TSi's and FSI's , but stage 4 is suppoused to be insane.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

As far as all questions, I will post as things happen, there are tons of parts involved and I will post all as they go on the car.

As for time table, you should see this build end Late OCT.

So let's start with the engine components.

Basically, the stage 4 kit is a hybrid of the Stage 3 BT kit and a completely built engine.
it is not a "KIT" and it is done on a case to case basis and it is not identical between builds.

The basis for the engine mods are APR motorsport engines and their experience with different changes at the track, modified to accommodate the larger turbo in this kit.

AFAIK I am only the third client that APR is building the stage 4 for and I have also requested some changes from previous builds.

So let's go over the main component, I'm doing this from my knowledge and might miss some points, I am sure APR will be glad to clarify if I did.

*•	Basic Stage 3 Kit - *

the base for this entire build is the standard stage 3 kit . in terms of turbo and surrounding accessories there is no change at all , the difference lies in the built engine and custom software 









*•	Ported and blueprinted head - *

both the head and the block are being X-rayed and scanned for any defects.
the head then is blueprinted and go through a 5 way porting process according to CAD files that are based on the motorsport engines.

I don't have exact flow numbers and not sure if APR are willing to share but there is a massive increase in flow through both intake and exhaust ports.

pics will be available later on.

*•	Ferrera Valve Train - *

This is new and has not been done to in previous builds and is being done according to my request , just for the extra strength .

this is a complete kit and should hold much higher revs than the stock valves. Although our engines are limited by other factors such as the HPFP.


















*•	Schrick Camshafts - *

Those camshafts were discussed a lot in the forums but rarely used since there is no software on the market apart from APR stage 4 that makes use of the higher lift and duration.

those are a pain to get hold of since they were of limited production and didn't sell well and so not massively produced.




























*•	Dynamically balanced Crank - *

The crank is being dynamically balanced (while rolling at high RPM) with the entire moving mass of the engine.

This also includes the clutch Flywheel which is also being modded to fit the rest of the engine's moving mass.

*•	EGR Delete - *

The EGR is one of the largest points of flow interruption and failure in highly tuned FSI's and therefore it is being completely shaven off of the car and the software is being adapted to run without the EGR.

*•	Rods and Pistons - *

the block is being bored slightly to 83mm and a set of JE pistons with IE rods is being installed.

Compression ratio is dropped only slightly (compared to my stock 9.8:1) to 9.5:1






































Those are the main things happening in the engine build. There are of-course tons of other misc items around those main parts.

current status is that the engine is already built and I am waiting for some pics to post from [email protected] (btw : thanks for the amazing pics so far) , which will probably happen once H2O is finished.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Holy molly that some build you have going. May I ask what your intentions are with the car and what your overall performance goals were?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Poko said:


> As far as all questions, I will post as things happen, there are tons of parts involved and I will post all as they go on the car.
> 
> As for time table, you should see this build end Late OCT.
> 
> ...


Good luck with the build its about ALL the parts working together and the attention to detail and of course the 20K your spending LOL  Bob.G


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

sabba said:


> Holy molly that some build you have going. May I ask what your intentions are with the car and what your overall performance goals were?


Well , My overtall performance goals are to get the best Street/Track TFSI.
that doesn't have to mean extremlly high numbers since i couldn't care less about dragging the car.
i guess we will have to just wait and see.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

so you do plan on tracking the car, just for driving events or you plan to race competitively. My stage 3 kit is a blast on the track, so much fun.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

the car is going to be tracked competitively as well.


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

Congrats Poko, that´s really something!

Also congrats to APR!

Cheers,

Beto


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

Interesting setup :thumbup:

APR's software will take advantage of aftermarket cams?

I have noticed that your Leon's colour is Iced Black :thumbup: 
is this a dealership colour in Israel or you painted like that? 
Very nice!!


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

seattheodore said:


> Interesting setup :thumbup:
> 
> APR's software will take advantage of aftermarket cams?
> 
> ...


Apr are tuning for Schrick's in their stage 4 only.

As for the car, it was painted in the dealership


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

awesome project! :beer:


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

MFZERO said:


> awesome project! :beer:


+1


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Time for an update

The engine is complete and on its way to Israel

Here are some Pics from the engine build:

* Block*










*Crank *


















*Head Top View*




















*Head Bottom View
*









*Exhaust Ports*


















*Intake Ports*


















Overall , just your standard TFSI 

Following batch of updates will come during next week when the car is taken out of storage and prep work is beginning along with lots of interesting parts to be installed.
(and I do apologize in advance that the pics will be nothing like what [email protected] takes)


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

they filled in the spots for the intake port dividers, neat!


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Looking good Ariel!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

There were a few other things I wanted to get photos of but I unfortunately did not have time. Essentially EVERYTHING is being replaced. This setup is pretty awesome.


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> There were a few other things I wanted to get photos of but I unfortunately did not have time. Essentially EVERYTHING is being replaced. This setup is pretty awesome.


Congrats to Arin and all his crew at APR, This is really awesome!... From the track, to the street!

Cheers,

Beto


----------



## CLestat (Nov 15, 2007)

No Flaps!!!

So, is better wiouth the flaps?


----------



## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

Poko said:


> the car is going to be tracked competitively as well.




How exactly are you going to do that? :what:


Put aside the fact motorsports legalization laws have not yet been put into motion
And the fact that there are no tracks what so ever in Israel


Grate work APR :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

CLestat said:


> No Flaps!!!
> 
> So, is better wiouth the flaps?


For power, yes. There is less restriction. 

It takes quite a bit of work to make cold start and part throttle drivability good though so it's not as simple as yanking them out and filling in the holes. I've heard of a few people saying they removed them w/o issues (with no tuning to address the removal) but they are simply fooling themselves.


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> For power, yes. There is less restriction.
> 
> It takes quite a bit of work to make cold start and part throttle drivability good though so it's not as simple as yanking them out and filling in the holes. I've heard of a few people saying they removed them w/o issues (with no tuning to address the removal) but they are simply fooling themselves.


I was wondering about that. Does this mean the flaps are removed from the intake manifold as well?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

MFZERO said:


> I was wondering about that. Does this mean the flaps are removed from the intake manifold as well?


It would be a waste not to take ALL the restrictions out up stream to help fill the cylinders with all the head work and cams in this build IMO. 

Maybe there's upgraded intake manifold not being shown :sly: Bob.G


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

MFZERO said:


> I was wondering about that. Does this mean the flaps are removed from the intake manifold as well?


Yes


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

:beer:


----------



## racerX2 (Jun 30, 2009)

:thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 5, 2009)

Looks good guys! :beer:


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Some Updates.

The engine has arrived to Israel and we are waiting for the APR team to come on over and install it.

In the meantime the car was towed back today from storage to be prepped.

Apart from Being extremely dirty (we will fix that soon) the tow truck also managed to break a side mirror as well as scratch the car.
i am less worried about the scratches since once the body kit is on (will come after the car is tuned) i will re-paint it , but now i have to source quickly another mirror.

we started today with the easy jobs of installing the intercooler and the brakes.

Intercooler 

[









Engine Bay










brakes post will be up a little later today.


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

:beer:


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

Poko said:


> Some Updates.
> 
> The engine has arrived to Israel and we are waiting for the APR team to come on over and install it.
> 
> ...


It's going to be a kick ass car!

Have you thought on installing a LSD to your awesome car?

Congrats to you and APR's Team.

Regards,

Beto


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

BETOGLI said:


> Have you thought on installing a LSD to your awesome car?
> 
> Beto


Haven't crossed my mind


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Now on with the brakes.

First , Since most of you don't know the CUPRA , its important to mention that OEM it comes with the S3 fronts (345mm) and GTI rear's (286mm).

My goal from the beginning was to get the best braking possible with the right front rear balance.

I started reading every post known to man about brake setups on the Mk5 and other platforms , but the real eye opener for me was a 30 minutes phone conversation with the racing teams manager for Seat Sport.
He was also generous enough to put his main engineer on the line and discuss with me the various options available.

* The fronts : *

So after the call with them , i decided to go for the brand that they are using which is AP racing.

here i had a real dilemma between weight and stopping power.
most of the guys i see here in the forums are spending $$$'s to save a LB in wheel weight but don't comprehend how heavy their brake setup is.

with AP racing i had two options. 
one is to go with the 5200 series which comprises of 330mm discs with 4 pot calipers and is extremely light at around 14 LBS for the entire setup
the other is to go with the 7040 series which is a 6 pot setup with 362mm discs , but weighs much more at around 30 LBS.

in the end my decision was to go with the better stopping power , also because this is the exact setup used on the Seat Supercopa race cars.

so here it is : 




















* Now for the rears *

The common upgrade for the mk5 chasis is to go to the S3's 310mm vented discs and calipers
however, in the discussion i had with Seat Sport they were strongly against it on a FWD.

they prefer a much more front bias setup which will help to load the wheels prior to corner entery.
as a matter of fact they are even "downgrading" the brakes on the race cars to the 253mm single piston setup from the lower powered Golfs.

therefore i have decided to stay with my 286mm setup and on a whim i changed the discs to Autotech ones.
i am not sure this will do me any good since they are as heavy as stock ones and the grooving/holes are done in CNC and not as part of the casting process.
but for now they will do.

some pics :





























As for brake pads i am currently running Mintex Extreme all around , but will try to play later on also with the options from Pagid (i want to see if i can keep the car in the temp range needed for Pagid blue).

as for wheels, the Lenso D1R which i was running do not clear the front brakes and my main intended wheels are much too wide (were meant for the body kit i will install only later).
therefore i had to find quickly some set of wheels with decent offset and the only thing i could find were nice looking AMG Reps. they are 18X8.5 ET45.
they were painted in Lambo Reventon color and mounted. those are cheap chinese wheels and are temps until i can find something better.

As for tires, i started out with my Toyo R1R at 225x40x18 but will go after the initial tune to my R888 at 255x35x18 all around.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

I have to say i have never heard of brake "downgrading".

It may sound "logical" but i a still upgrading my rears to the 312mm ones.

If you are continuously tracking ok...it might work...But if you are on the street and an ahole blocks you while you are....."passing" another car...i doubt the "front wheel loading" will help....


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Good choice with the AP brake set up. I am happy with the R32 setup so far ( rotors are freaking heavy); but if I was to upgrade it would be either AP or stoptech trophies.... Look forward to seeing the progression of this car!

Nick


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

I've seen the front brakes get downgraded in order to fit smaller wheels for drag racing (better selection of drag tires). never the rears though.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> I have to say i have never heard of brake "downgrading".
> 
> It may sound "logical" but i a still upgrading my rears to the 312mm ones.
> 
> If you are continuously tracking ok...it might work...But if you are on the street and an ahole blocks you while you are....."passing" another car...i doubt the "front wheel loading" will help....


you missed the point that i haven't downgraded, just did not upgrade (well , actually upgraded the pads).

and this makes a lot of sense.

my overall stopping power is much much higher than with the stock setup (R32 Equiv) and yet when i stop i allow my car to be more responsive as well.

you can see this also in OEM setups , for example my cupra which has the S3/ED30 engine , however uses the GTI rears since it is a FWD and not an AWD like the A3.

Add to that the fact that our master cylinder is quite week and non upgradable , and actually upgrading rear piston size and contact patch will make the pedal feel much worse and contribute only slightly if any to actual stopping power.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Poko said:


> you missed the point that i haven't downgraded, just did not upgrade (well , actually upgraded the pads).
> 
> and this makes a lot of sense.
> 
> ...


Well i meant "downgrading" in the way that you aren't going to install the 312 mm brakes, not remove them and put the smaller ones in.

I am aware that from the factory the Cupra has only the R32 front brakes and the rear GTI ones, and i have the EXACT same setup, just can't wait to install my rear R32 brakes also.Sorry for not following your thinking, but i believe if braking was better VW wouldn't go to all this trouble ACTUALLY FITTING THE FRONT GTI BRAKES TO THE R32 REAR (not the same but the same size anyway).

But you know best. :thumbup:


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

actually rears are 310mm and not 312 in the s3.

but, you have to understand that when a manufacturer makes a car , especially a hatch , performance driving is not the only goal in mind and safety for the normal driver who brakes inside corners is a very big concern.

that thinking is not mine , it is shared by all VW racing teams and used on their cars. and believe me , there is no place where braking is more important than on the track. a good set of brakes is better than 100hp more in the engine.

please take a look at the supercopa's tech spec :
http://www.seat-sport.com/en/leon-supercopa/caracteristicas-tecnicas.php

Edit :
Same Applies also to the Rocco Cup cars.
large strong brakes up front , smaller single piston discs at the back
"Ventilated 4-piston fixed-calliper disc brakes, front (Æ 356 mm), single-piston sliding-calliper disc brakes, rear
(Æ 282 mm), racing ABS"


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

18bora. said:


> Nice build, all top shelf components. Is this going to be a street/race or dedicated race car, and what kind of racing?
> AP makes great brakes, but their race calipers don’t come with dust seals and may need to be rebuilt more often if driven on the streets for long periods. I can’t speak for the Mintex blue’s, but I’ve used the red’s on the track before and they were garbage. I’ve also tried both Pagids yellow and black. The black’s have better grip than the yellow’s (not by much), but the yellow’s are a lot nicer on the rotors and more linear.


Yes, AP do need rebuild more often than other more "streetable" solutions , but in my eyes the performance is worth it. what's more they have been proven to work on this platform by several race teams which have tested many of the other options on the market as well.

As for pads, i currently run MINTEX because the distributer who i bought the AP's from also does mintex and he bundles them togheter. i agree they are not top of the line although i have never driven on the Mintex Extreme pads which is what i currently have up front.

i am planning on changing them once i get to know the Temp range i will actually use.

Pagid Yellows are worthless on the road since they only work in extremly high temps and squeal like hell.

ferodo DS2500 cannot work at all at high temps because the internal rubber is melting around 700+C

i am aiming for Pagid Blue's which should serve all my needs if i can meet on daily basis their temp requirment and i am willing to live with a little squeal.


----------



## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

updates ? 

when do you think the car will be tuned and running (along with a video please )


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

mikeg6045 said:


> updates ?
> 
> when do you think the car will be tuned and running (along with a video please )


 +1, We need yo to sent us the latest chapter...Hahaha! 

Cheers, 

Beto


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

Poko said:


> Yes, AP do need rebuild more often than other more "streetable" solutions , but in my eyes the performance is worth it. what's more they have been proven to work on this platform by several race teams which have tested many of the other options on the market as well.
> 
> As for pads, i currently run MINTEX because the distributer who i bought the AP's from also does mintex and he bundles them togheter. i agree they are not top of the line although i have never driven on the Mintex Extreme pads which is what i currently have up front.
> 
> ...


 Im running the 'newer' pagid yellows (cant remember the name on my 5570 calipers and they are great, this is for street and track driving. no squeal, and work at lower temps to. Best all rounder it seems. I had the DS2500's before.


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

DanGB said:


> Im running the 'newer' pagid yellows (cant remember the name on my 5570 calipers and they are great, this is for street and track driving. no squeal, and work at lower temps to. Best all rounder it seems. I had the DS2500's before.


 How do they compare to the DS2500? I am running those on my Brembo ST40 calipers. They are not the most rotor friendly pad. Do they bite better in the cold? TIA


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

18bora. said:


> I use the DS2500 for daily driving and switch to racing pads before a track event. With race calipers, it only takes 15-20 minutes to change all 4.
> 
> 
> The newer yellow is the RS29 vs. RS19
> ...


 
Thanks Sam. So my ds2500 pads are still one of the best choices? I was considering changing to pagids for DD. Guess it's not a good idea


----------



## fastgti69 (Apr 26, 2009)

"Well there you go..... 513 to the wheels on race fuel. Project Stg 4 APR Israel Seat LCR 2.0T FSI!!! Go APR!"

from facebook dyno 

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=443890850355&set=a.129211480355.115815.75900685355


----------



## Serrari (Jun 29, 2008)

Those 513whp was just a little peak power, not a clean graph. Awesome numbers though.


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

damn!


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

so are you going to give us an estimate on how much this is going to cost? i am full stage 3 and want to gut and run stage 4. just kind of would like a price on what you are paying. if this is a double post i am sorry


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

It all depends how much customization you want to do?

If you do rods and cams plus tune it will probably be around 5k

If you start doing head work then your talking big money.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Congrats!:thumbup:


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

i think the dyno numbers are a bit high !!! by using a gt28 turbo will only get u around 400hp with a very high boost setup and as we all know the FSI engine cannot get above 1.6 bar without fuel problems so i think this car was running very lean !!!


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

ahmadabdeen said:


> i think the dyno numbers are a bit high !!! by using a gt28 turbo will only get u around 400hp with a very high boost setup and as we all know the FSI engine cannot get above 1.6 bar without fuel problems so i think this car was running very lean !!!


motec and haltech israel guys were at the dyno to verify
afr not lower than 11.8 (i will see if i can get the log from apr engineer)

and boost is not really the major thing in getting high numbers.

"we all know" is a nice way to start a sentence , but in this case not all of us agree with your point.


----------



## djwhiplash2001 (Apr 21, 2008)

^ahmadabdeen, clearly you have the technical knowledge of a tunafish sandwich.


----------



## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

ahmadabdeen said:


> i think the dyno numbers are a bit high !!! by using a gt28 turbo will only get u around 400hp with a very high boost setup and as we all know the FSI engine cannot get above 1.6 bar without fuel problems so i think this car was running very lean !!!


he has the high output FSI,

and is not just slapping on a gt28 with high boost. anyway the GT28's arent known for running high boost in these applications. 

have you kept up on the thread ? and more importantly do you know what you talking about ?


----------



## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

Poko said:


> motec and haltech israel guys were at the dyno to verify
> afr not lower than 11.8 (i will see if i can get the log from apr engineer)
> 
> and boost is not really the major thing in getting high numbers.
> ...


poko,

how much more tuning is the car doing to need to be completely race ready ? or is it done.

this is an AWD car, correct ? 513 is to fwhp with the haldex off ?

more input in this thread would be a bonus :thumbup:


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

mikeg6045 said:


> poko,
> 
> how much more tuning is the car doing to need to be completely race ready ? or is it done.
> 
> ...


next week i will update with more pics and data
there is also a pump fuel file which is more conservative

the car is ready now in terms of tuning. Many other small things to finish

the car is a fwd. Not awd


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

yeah maybe ur right high boost is not the major thing to get high number but i would like to see the afr numbers with the max rpms u hit


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

djwhiplash2001 said:


> ^ahmadabdeen, clearly you have the technical knowledge of a tunafish sandwich.


well it seems u never tuned an FSi engine to its maximum limits . iam telling this from a good experience mate )


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

mikeg6045 said:


> he has the high output FSI,
> 
> and is not just slapping on a gt28 with high boost. anyway the GT28's arent known for running high boost in these applications.
> 
> have you kept up on the thread ? and more importantly do you know what you talking about ?


loll mike just for your own info we are building an audi s3 with the 2.0TFSI engine and this audi has a special setup in which it is only available on three cars in the whole world, it is a very complicated setup in order to solve the fueling problem .all of these three cars are using way much bigger turbo than the gt28 with an afr of 11.4 on 8200 rpm which this apr seat will never get to these numbers without fixing the fueling problem. when i say big turbos i mean gt30 family and above. all the dyno numbers were around 500+ whp on 8200rpm these reading where done on a mustang dyno which known for low reading dyno and ofcourse on full load. . so i hope you guys know what u are talking about and check again the numbers u are posting  cheers


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

ahmadabdeen said:


> loll mike just for your own info we are building an audi s3 with the 2.0TFSI engine and this audi has a special setup in which it is only available on three cars in the whole world, it is a very complicated setup in order to solve the fueling problem .all of these three cars are using way much bigger turbo than the gt28 with an afr of 11.4 on 8200 rpm which this apr seat will never get to these numbers without fixing the fueling problem. when i say big turbos i mean gt30 family and above. all the dyno numbers were around 500+ whp on 8200rpm these reading where done on a mustang dyno which known for low reading dyno and ofcourse on full load. . so i hope you guys know what u are talking about and check again the numbers u are posting  cheers


so you found a solution to the fuel problem we fsi owners are having?


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

yeah we found the solution and i will post it soon


----------



## djwhiplash2001 (Apr 21, 2008)

ahmadabdeen said:


> and check again the numbers u are posting  cheers





Serrari said:


>


Check again-ing... Yep, still says 513


----------



## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

ahmadabdeen said:


> i think the dyno numbers are a bit high !!! by using a gt28 turbo will only get u around 400hp with a very high boost setup and as we all know the FSI engine cannot get above 1.6 bar without fuel problems so i think this car was running very lean !!!


my lower output TSI (OEM 200hp) 2.0T see's 380crank hp (10% DTL) with the smaller GT2860 with a bolt on kit and software. No engine work at all done to the car.

I would think APR knows what they are doing, and I cant imagine they would leave this customers car on the verge of destruction from running leaner than there tuning history has shown. But hey, I could be wrong. AFR graphs would be better than you and I just speculating that this car is running lean. That is outright negligent to come and say without some solid information. Just because you guys ran a different setup to achieve your HP ratings, does not mean someone else is doing it improperly. They may or may not be, but asking instead of speculating would be a better approach.


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

djwhiplash2001 said:


> Check again-ing... Yep, still says 513


btw it is only peak power 513 whp and then look at the drop. and do you know by any chance how the dyno works and how u can play with the load in order to get high outputs ??


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

anyways iam waiting the afr log with the boost and rpm


----------



## djwhiplash2001 (Apr 21, 2008)




----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

im waiting to hear more on the magic fueling solution avilable to only 3 people

but even with it , what you are saying is that i am doing much better without it

you made 500whp with a gt35 spooling at around 5000 rpm i made the same with a 2871 spooling at low 3000
you run to 8200 rpm , i dont need to in order to get extra beefy powerband
you run 11.4 afr at redline , i run 11.8

i guess apr engineering dept wont give you a call anytime soon

as for the logs i will try and get them for you next week , but you will probably say i am lying again.
Mae like you did after watching a vid of the dyno


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

I'll try to address the questions asked but I'm sure I'll miss some.

Between 3,500 and 4,500 rpm boost is relatively low due to compressor surge. After 4,500 rpm duty cycle is ramped back in and the turbo charger is wide open from 5,000 rpm to redline. This is why the car makes peak torque so late. We've actually found this to be beneficial from a traction standpoint.

The car does have a production 2871R turbo and made over 500whp every run with the final file (I believe there were 6 total pulls with this file). The boost level on this build is essentially identical to the previous 2 we've done. However, the use of C16 allows MBT timing advance to be reached which 100 octane simply cannot due. The increase in ignition is what accounts for the added power. I also feel confident the dyno was accurate because Hank's 93 octane file made 382whp on our dyno and the same file on this car made 386whp (with 98 RON in the tank). 98 RON, from our experience, is always slightly better than our 93 R/M. So, after further calibration to the pump gas file the car made 402whp on 98.

Fueling is obviously a limitation in the FSI. It begins with the low pressure pump, which we address with this kit. Next, are the injectors (although the high pressure pump is also getting a work out). But, the cool thing is that the injectors' limitation is obviously related to engine speed. The faster the engine spins the less time you have for the injectors to spray. So, we're able to run lots of boost in the 5,000-6,500rpm range and the injectors are okay. Because the turbo is relatively small it clearly falls off after 6,500rpm. If we were to attempt 8,000rpm we would need a larger turbo and larger injectors but I feel that we make adequate power with what we have.

I hope this makes sense, I'm tired. If anyone has specific questions I'd be glad to answer them, though I may not check this thread again until I'm back in the states on Monday.


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

ahmadabdeen said:


> yeah we found the solution and i will post it soon


just curious but are they bigger injectors?


----------



## Serrari (Jun 29, 2008)

I found the solution too, its called direct port meth injection.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Serrari said:


> I found the solution too, its called direct port meth injection.


APR wants nothing to do with that


----------



## Serrari (Jun 29, 2008)

sabba said:


> APR wants nothing to do with that


Actually running Precision .82ar [email protected] + 40hp shot with a 11.6-11.8 AFR, works really good for me.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Serrari said:


> Actually running Precision .82ar [email protected] + 40hp shot with a 11.6-11.8 AFR, works really good for me.


opcorn::thumbup::beer:


----------



## ahmadabdeen (Oct 25, 2008)

Poko said:


> im waiting to hear more on the magic fueling solution avilable to only 3 people
> 
> but even with it , what you are saying is that i am doing much better without it
> 
> ...


our afr at 5200rpm is 11.2 till 8000rpm we are now trying to hit the 8900rpm at 8500 we got 11.4 afr which is perfect and as you know it the first FSI engine in the world that revved like this so we hope to get good result  and my advise to you is to push this engine to the redline in order to get a huge power you would not expected and trust me you start to laugh when u see the power band after 7500rpm and how the engine is aggressive with zero knocking and using only 98 octane. next step is going to be the Q16 fuel.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

ust wanted to sum things up a little and say some thank yous. , although later this week i will sort all pics and data and load them.

first of all about the final results.
the car is currently on with 2 different files (i driven it around 80-100 miles on both today).

the first is the race fuel file which takes the 2871R as far as it can go and left many people shocked since no one belived that this tiny turbo can make this numbers. as was shared, it makes 513WHP and it is absolutly mental to drive.
the turbo is even more avilable than on stage 3 cars and massive power starts just after 3000rpm and goes all the way to the redline.

the other file is the 98ron file which i have asked to make very tame and safe in relation. we don't use any addetives such as methanol and timing are not advanced to the max to allow for east adaption to weather and condition changes. also the turbo never goes above 80% duty cycle so a long life for the engine and turbo are expected with this file. this file puts out 402whp

overall , i just drove the car around 100 miles, and i need some time to get used to it. it is absolutly mental , you just press the pedal at 3000 rpm and the car next to you suddenly is half a mile back.

i would also like to add some thank you's for the really amazing guys involved in this project.

first the APR guys (random order of names) :

[email protected] -
An amazing mechanic who has built me an engine who can stand anything i can throw at it and than some

[email protected] -
The guy who is not a tuner but a Wizard who made power from the 2871R which left a lot of people with open mouths and won me a lot of bets. now people will know not to believe flow maps 

[email protected] -
The head of APR who has supported this project all along and make this trip to israel come true. a truly unique and amazing guy.

[email protected] -
the guy who started this project rolling within APR and without him it would have never gotten so far.

And now for the Israeli guys :

Pit Stop -
APR's israeli distributer, i think the world of them and there is a reason why. you all would have wished to have a nearby dealer like those guys.

TIG Motorsport -
By far the most professional shop in israel and the only ones i will ever trust to deal with my car, they were a major part of this build .

sorry for the long thank you's which probably are not interesting to read, but all the guys mentioned just put a week of 20 work hours a day , and they really deserve the credit.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Just some answers about the fueling :

@ ahmadabdeen - 
Since you are not sharing your magic solution , all i am left with is to tell you good luck with your S3's and i will be waiting to see more info. in the meantime , you are free to not belive anything i post just since you didn't make it. 

there is no real way i can prove anything since you are not here. on the local forums i was asked also to verify and therefore the Motec and Haltech distributers were there as well (around 15 people at the dyno) and no one questions my results (although they are shocked as you are about what a 2871R can make).

@ Serrari - 
You have a really interesting build with your LEON , of-course our cars are different in their purpouse since you build a drag car and i build a road / track car.

As for me , i would not have trusted Methanol injectors on a 2 hours track run , especially since the MFD now gives you no limp mode protection and in any case your Methanol pump goes (and they do) or something else happens, you are going to blow that engine really quick. but for drag applications it might be safer.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

you can run meth and not tune for it and NOTHING will happen if it stops flowing... 

awesome numbers... just surprised it takes sooooo much for our engines to still be in the 500s.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Did apr make any changes to existing stage 3 hardware, specifically their hpfp?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

sabba said:


> Did apr make any changes to existing stage 3 hardware, specifically their hpfp?


 No


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

:thumbup: 

That's awesome so the only changes to the fueling was the intank fuel pump. This build is...*EPIC*!!! 
:laugh:


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Krieger said:


> you can run meth and not tune for it and NOTHING will happen if it stops flowing...
> 
> awesome numbers... just surprised it takes sooooo much for our engines to still be in the 500s.


 Well if you don't tune for meth you will get only a little extra power since the med9 will only slightly advance timing due to the lower ait 

And as for hp. On the c16 fuel there was still plenty to go just not on the 2871 . I presume that the same setup with an ex excellent tuner like Joel will make near 600 with a 3076 but will be very laggy


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

id rather spray and have much colder IATs and EGTs than to not just because I didnt tune for it.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Krieger said:


> id rather spray and have much colder IATs and EGTs than to not just because I didnt tune for it.


 i agree, i will probably add in some point a very small nozzle that will not ruin lamda readings just to cool things off a little further.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Poko said:


> now people will know not to believe flow maps


 Do you blame them Ariel?


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

afaik, meth fattens up the AFR, not water.


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

So my question is, can this still be a daily driver? I know the stage 3 that i am running is good on gas if i keep it out of boost. But what about the stage 4?


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

I assume that cruising around in Vacuum would yield you the same if not slightly better fuel efficiency. In boost.... all bets are off. I have a feeling that initially you will see the gas pump more often just because you cant stop romping on the gas pedal.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Runin2Rich4FSi said:


> I assume that cruising around in Vacuum would yield you the same if not slightly better fuel efficiency. In boost.... all bets are off. I have a feeling that initially you will see the gas pump more often just because you cant stop romping on the gas pedal.


 It does look like it's going to meet the gas station quite often , Although I have no real data on that yet

However off boost it will probably consume less than a stage 3 . 

But who build a stage 4 to drive off boost all day long


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

Like I said.


----------



## wezlo (Sep 25, 2007)

No way could a 2871 make 513 wheel HP!


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

wezlo said:


> No way could a 2871 make 513 wheel HP!


 Anything is possible.


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

Amazing numbers, congrats Poko! and you should add some more pics and videos. 

Cheers, 

Beto


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

more photos and vids later. 

just something that passed my mind. 
ahmadabdeen , are you by any chance from israel and discuss the orange S3 ?


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

Poko said:


> more photos and vids later.
> 
> just something that passed my mind.
> ahmadabdeen , are you by any chance from israel and discuss the orange S3 ?


Poko put on the hater-blockers 

What you and APR did with this project is amazing - completly taken it to the next level and then some.....awesome car and must be blast to drive...

I my self outpowered the "rated" power of the GT28rs using nothing but APR hardware and must also listen to "disbelievers/haters"...dont care, APR´s hardware is the bombshell....

Nothing but :thumbup: for this project...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Here's the average results! 
Pump fuel vs race fuel *AT THE WHEELS*.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Here's the average results!
> Pump fuel vs race fuel *AT THE WHEELS*


Arin So the UNCORRECTED numbers strap down on that can be reproduced on most any DYNO-JET is what 400whp on pump ?/ 450-460 WHP on race ?  Bob.G


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Arin So the UNCORRECTED numbers strap down on that can be reproduced on most any DYNO-JET is what 400whp on pump ?/ 450-460 WHP on race ?  Bob.G


On your car we'd just give you valet mode and that's it.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> On your car we'd just give you valet mode and that's it.


No its more like weak mode LOL:laugh:


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

Just so you understand the power I must share a new problem I developed

Every time I go wot on lower gears I loose around 10psi on the front tires since the wheel is spinning inside the tire. Too much power too fast

Will have to get special wheels with locks for the tires. 

This thing is mental


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

wezlo said:


> No way could a 2871 make 513 wheel HP!


i know this is not 513 but i put down 450 to the crank with just pump gas, no internals. just the bolt on apr stage 3 kit running program 3. now if i ran new internals and racing gas and program 4 i am sure that i would be close with that stage 4, not compairing but just saying that the 2871r turbo has a lot of potentiol


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

:bs:



THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> i know this is not 513 but i put down 450 to the crank with just pump gas, no internals. just the bolt on apr stage 3 kit running program 3. now if i ran new internals and racing gas and program 4 i am sure that i would be close with that stage 4, not compairing but just saying that the 2871r turbo has a lot of potentiol


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> i know this is not 513 but i put down 450 to the crank with just pump gas, no internals. just the bolt on apr stage 3 kit running program 3. now if i ran new internals and racing gas and program 4 i am sure that i would be close with that stage 4, not compairing but just saying that the 2871r turbo has a lot of potentiol





sabba said:


> :bs:


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

have any customer runs off a mustang dynometer?

those numbers are hard to believe on pump gas. he puts to wheel greater then you claim to crank...


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

sabba said:


> have any customer runs off a mustang dynometer?
> 
> those numbers are hard to believe on pump gas. he puts to wheel greater then you claim to crank...


Its shown 102 race gas in the tank and those numbers are CORRECTED crank numbers


----------



## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

Well, be careful with german and US rated octane numbers.
US fuel is rated different than german fuel. 

...102 octane means only "MON",... you (USA) measure it like RON + MON...= / 2 

So German 102 Octane Aral is like (102 ROZ + 88 MOZ = 190 --> 190 / 2 = 95 US Octane. = no race gas 

Besides, we never have WHP dyno results... its always rated to the crank 

...


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Thanks...

yeah i think this one got lost in translation somewhere.


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

Poko said:


> Just so you understand the power I must share a new problem I developed
> 
> Every time I go wot on lower gears I loose around 10psi on the front tires since the wheel is spinning inside the tire. Too much power too fast
> 
> ...


 
that's nutty! 
time for some bead lock wheels


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

rracerguy717 said:


> Its shown 102 race gas in the tank and those numbers are CORRECTED crank numbers


as Hendrik stated it is 102 ultimate arel gas. i stated it was pump gas you can get at any arel gas station over here in germany. the 102 is rated to 98 oct in the states. if you look at the video it show in PS. that is the metric equivilant to HP. if you watch, you will see that it gets up to over 471 PS at the crank. if you use the convertor it will be what i am claiming. i ship my car back to the states in december and when i get it from the shipping company i will be more than willing to take it to APR and have it dynoed at thier shop. 

Arin thanks for posting that i did not even think to post that. also does APR do comstomer dynos?
i will be more than willing to come down there to see what your machine says VS the superflow dyno jet dyno i have used 3 different times. 


now back to the matter at hand. so i still state my previous statement. a 2871r will get more than what some people clame. 

POKO hey sorry for the thread jack. i really like what you did. i like how you went thru and did all the pics of the parts you got. that car is going to be a killer on the track!!!!!! do you plan of doing 1/4 drag racing with it next year? if so send me a link to your videos so i can watch them...... thanks for the great thread. 

jeff


----------



## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> as Hendrik stated it is 102 ultimate arel gas. i stated it was pump gas you can get at any arel gas station over here in germany. the 102 is rated to 98 oct in the states.
> jeff



Hendrik calculated 95 rating for the states 
102 RON + 88 MON = 190 
190/2 = US FUEL OCTANE RATING = 95 

You mentioned the DIN HP and PS difference too. You are right...!
and besides that, a Dynojet tends to show bigger numbers compared to a Mustang or MAHA Dyno one.

A pity that you will leave germany soon


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

i have been over here for 8 years now. wish i could stay but it is time to go and than come back in a few years.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> Arin thanks for posting that i did not even think to post that. also does APR do comstomer dynos?


Typically no. The dyno usually has one vehicle or another on it at all times whether it's a new calibration we are making or or the motorsport team is using it for brutal testing. Also, unlike a roller dyno, it's a lengthy process to just get a car on and off. the wheels must be removed and the car must be mounted on the actual dyno, which takes quite a bit of time and effort. So, essentially no, we only use it for work. _For example, I've been here for years and only put my car on once._


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Typically no. The dyno usually has one vehicle or another on it at all times whether it's a new calibration we are making or or the motorsport team is using it for brutal testing. Also, unlike a roller dyno, it's a lengthy process to just get a car on and off. the wheels must be removed and the car must be mounted on the actual dyno, which takes quite a bit of time and effort. So, essentially no, we only use it for work. _For example, I've been here for years and only put my car on once._


i guess the next question would be what would i need to buy to get it on that dyno. lol jk


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> i guess the next question would be what would i need to buy to get it on that dyno. lol jk


Shrick cams and a calibration.


----------



## Poko (Jan 29, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Typically no. The dyno usually has one vehicle or another on it at all times whether it's a new calibration we are making or or the motorsport team is using it for brutal testing. Also, unlike a roller dyno, it's a lengthy process to just get a car on and off. the wheels must be removed and the car must be mounted on the actual dyno, which takes quite a bit of time and effort. So, essentially no, we only use it for work. _For example, I've been here for years and only put my car on once._


Takes about 15-20 minutes to mount a car on a Dynapack , this is what i used here as well as it's the most accurate, you don't get variations due to tire pressure , slippage or strapping . 

You can also see on the dyno that it is very consistent pull after pull

As for all the people who asked for a vid. I have to travel a bit on work but in 2 weeks we will do a video on a landing strip

We expect to compare the car to a stage 2 plus k03 , k04 , stage 3 with methanol , 370z and maybe an apr tuned 996 turbo . 

I will see if I can get more interesting cars to come working now to convince a tuned z06 and an r8 to come


----------



## shamrode (Oct 12, 2010)

Would it be fair to include an S3 stage 3? All the other cars are two-wheel drive.


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

[email protected] said:


>



Simply amazing... Congrats Arin!

Cheers,

Beto


----------



## a3 t (May 8, 2010)

poko
Can I come too? (stage 2+)


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

thats an APR exhaust??? the ones i hear in person dont sound like pissed off bees... lol

nice pull though, doesnt sound like it goes from no power to tons of power. very nice.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Here's the average results!
> Pump fuel vs race fuel *AT THE WHEELS*.




Arin Just noticed this below I thought dynpak was @ the HUB not the wheels?  Bob.G



Poko said:


> Takes about 15-20 minutes to mount a car on a * Dynapack , this is what i used here as well *as it's the most accurate, you don't get variations due to tire pressure , slippage or strapping .
> 
> You can also see on the dyno that it is very consistent pull after pull


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Krieger said:


> thats an APR exhaust??? the ones i hear in person dont sound like pissed off bees... lol
> 
> nice pull though, doesnt sound like it goes from no power to tons of power. very nice.


Thats the old APR/BB exhaust my car has the same sound it drones like hell on the highway thou :facepalm: Bob.G


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

Krieger said:


> thats an APR exhaust??? the ones i hear in person dont sound like pissed off bees... lol
> 
> nice pull though, doesnt sound like it goes from no power to tons of power. very nice.


that is the apr rsc exhaust. the only reason it sounds so loud is because it was in a room just a little bit gigger than the dyno machine. plus i was right behind it and the car was doing over 100 mph when they were doing the final pull


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Arin Just noticed this below I thought dynpak was @ the HUB not the wheels?  Bob.G



Dynapack outputs wheel power. It's very accurate when comparing two cars because you get to eliminate these variables:



Tie down strap pressure variations
Tire size variations
Tire temperature variations
Tire grip variations
Tire pressure variations
Wheel size variations
Wheel weight variations
Roller mass variations
Roller type variations
Roller coating variations
Roller resistance
Slip
Etc...


This is partially why in house stage 4 cars vs overseas stage 4 cars on the same type of dyno in similar testing conditions on files which were essentially the same with similar fuel types were putting down nearly identical peak numbers. 

If the dynojet is operating correctly, and a lot of these unknown variables are minimized, the results can be extremely similar

Read this article:
http://www.goapr.com/images/sccdvd.jpg


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> a 2871r will get more than what some people clame.


So we are supposed to assume that Garrett discloses incorrect information? 

I allready congratulated Ariel and I am a huge supporter of APR and there products but based on the hp claim you basically made a turbocharger whose flow that is rated at 45 lbs/min increase to 68 lbs/min.

either way keep up the good work.:beer:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

INA said:


> So we are supposed to assume that Garrett discloses incorrect information?
> 
> I allready congratulated Ariel and I am a huge supporter of APR and there products but based on the hp claim you basically made a turbocharger whose flow that is rated at 45 lbs/min increase to 68 lbs/min.
> 
> either way keep up the good work.:beer:


I was wondering why no one mentioned something like that up to now...

I agree with you Issam, and it's good to know at least some people as "watching" :beer::thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

INA said:


> So we are supposed to assume that Garrett discloses incorrect information?


I'm not so sure they did since they disclose discloses 'estimated' power ratings. 

Are these at the crank or at the wheels and what engine is used? Obviously some engines are more efficient than others. Also, what octane fuel? With C16 vs 100 (R+M)/2, we were able to pick up another 50 WHP. That was from timing alone. So is Garrett assuming these figures with pump fuel, race fuel, or something else?


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

Hello everybody! I have just logged in. I really admire this forum, where I often use to read some articles.First of all I would like to give my congratulations to all that participated for this excellent result. I am the owner of the strongest apr tfsi here in Greece with around 475hp in Maha Dynometer. It is a Leon Cupra 2007 full stage 3 apr set up with Arrow rods, AEM water/Meth, USP parallel pump low fuel pressure system and I have in my hands one set of Shrick cams that I am going to install tomorrow. The I am very impatient to install in my car this fantastic file as the competition with the others tfsi big turbo owners is great....

So, dear Arin or Joel (you have regards from Kostas and George) I have a question. Am I going to be able to use Poko's race file just with the 50%water and 50&meth that I use in my car (and of course with Schrick cams), or you thing only with race fuel like Q16? How much is the advance request in Poko's race file? (The race file I am using now from you is about 22 and I have 0 cf with my water/meth). I thing that I read in a previous page of this topic that Joel made in Poko's car about 460whp just on 100 octane. Am I able to have 402whp on my ''small'' file, 460whp on my ''medium'' and 510whp on my race file? This would be fantastic and ideal!


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

haris-cupra-apr-Greece said:


> Hello everybody! I have just logged in. I really admire this forum, where I often use to read some articles.First of all I would like to give my congratulations to all that participated for this excellent result. I am the owner of the strongest apr tfsi here in Greece with around 475hp in Maha Dynometer. It is a Leon Cupra 2007 full stage 3 apr set up with Arrow rods, AEM water/Meth, USP parallel pump low fuel pressure system and I have in my hands one set of Shrick cams that I am going to install tomorrow. The I am very impatient to install in my car this fantastic file as the competition with the others tfsi big turbo owners is great....
> 
> So, dear Arin or Joel (you have regards from Kostas and George) I have a question. Am I going to be able to use Poko's race file just with the 50%water and 50&meth that I use in my car (and of course with Schrick cams), or you thing only with race fuel like Q16? How much is the advance request in Poko's race file? (The race file I am using now from you is about 22 and I have 0 cf with my water/meth). I thing that I read in a previous page of this topic that Joel made in Poko's car about 460whp just on 100 octane. Am I able to have 402whp on my ''small'' file, 460whp on my ''medium'' and 510whp on my race file? This would be fantastic and ideal!



opcorn:
this is like deja vu

this stage 4 car has a ton of headwork in addition to cams....his performace gain over your car is much more then simply a software reflash!


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

Headwork (except from cams of course and sometimes ''flowing development''-I don't know if this is the correct word-which I already have) is not giving you any horsepower, but safety in high rpm range....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Haris,

We'll work with you to see how far we can safely take it once the cams are installed. Poko's C16 file was achieving MBT (Mean best timing) meaning we were able to add so much timing it got to a point where even though it was achieving more timing advance, no further power was made. As far as running poko's file on w/m, I don't think it would be a safe idea but I have no data to support that yet. We can work with you and APR Greece to see how far we can safely take your setup on your local race fuels grades! Work with Kostas and George and we'll get the balling rolling. :thumbup:

You already have a beast of a car with a huge power band! I can't wait to see you take it further!


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

Ok Arin thank you for your reply. So. we will all try for the maximum power! I am happy that I have so good partners like you, and apr guys here in Greece..


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

INA said:


> So we are supposed to assume that Garrett discloses incorrect information?
> 
> I allready congratulated Ariel and I am a huge supporter of APR and there products but based on the hp claim you basically made a turbocharger whose flow that is rated at 45 lbs/min increase to 68 lbs/min.
> 
> either way keep up the good work.:beer:


Sammy if you change VE and BSFC you can increase power beyound the need of more flow lbs/min, this discussion was done in my thread as well, and i have - if you ask me, overprofed my results, not to mention lined up the formular from garrett´s own tech page to prove that making 400chp on a GT28rs is possible, just like i am doing.

Anyways i know you know this and how it works together and stuff, but it is possible if you basicly mod your car in everyother aspect then just changing turbo, not very many keeps pushing a "small" setup to the end, before they get their - they change to bigger turbo, so not many really gets "amazing" results with the "smaller" turbos, and i think thats really a mistake....im not saying i wont change to a bigger turbo, but i know everything else is working at its best now, so making more power is easy with a bigger turbo...thats why im still dreaming of getting and taking the GT2868 to its limits


----------



## BigNuts (Nov 14, 2010)

If anyone believes 513whp from a 2871 and 400whp from the 28rs, please send me a PM. I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

BigNuts said:


> If anyone believes 513whp from a 2871 and 400whp from the 28rs, please send me a PM. I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


how much and where will it lead me to?


----------



## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

BigNuts said:


> If anyone believes 513whp from a 2871 and 400whp from the 28rs, please send me a PM. I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


interesting , did you sign up just so say that ?

Join Date
11-14-2010

Last Activity
Today 03:29 PM

Blog Entries
0


welcome to the forum, you'll fit right in ! :wave:


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

BigNuts said:


> If anyone believes 513whp from a 2871 and 400whp from the 28rs, please send me a PM. I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


Not 400whp, 400chp on the gt28rs, please read a post before you comment, and for the record i backed it up with trapspeed and 3 different dynomachines.


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

(Bignuts latest fortune from a Chinese fortune cookie) noob who makes ignorant comment is ignorant. 

Great results all around for sure.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

INA said:


> So we are supposed to assume that Garrett discloses incorrect information?
> 
> I allready congratulated Ariel and I am a huge supporter of APR and there products but based on the hp claim you basically made a turbocharger whose flow that is rated at 45 lbs/min increase to 68 lbs/min.
> 
> either way keep up the good work.:beer:


Put the numbers down and back away from the written words.

Garrett's published data is based on assumptions that are not always the rule.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> I was wondering why no one mentioned something like that up to now...
> 
> I agree with you Issam, and it's good to know at least some people as "watching" :beer::thumbup:


You don't believe everything you read all the time do you?

Its very simple, Garrett releases normalized data across a wide range of variables to obtain a safe average that they can expect the majority of their customer base to be able to reproduce.

Outliers are always present in every data set when attempting to normalize or average the results of complex, dynamic systems.

This is an extreme example of the results that can be achieved by changing several other parts of the system than just the turbo.

Garrett's perspective is to get more than their rating, without changing any other components, you need a bigger turbo.

We are changing other components that affect the way the turbo is managed by the entire system helping the turbo out more so than Garrett tested or anticipated the majority of their customer base would.

Oh, and just about every single stock turbo stage 1-2 ecu upgrade exceeds the turbo's ratings by even greater percentages than we are exceeding the rating of the 2871r.

So, by your logic, nobody is making any power with ecu upgrades on stock turbo cars of any make or model.

Even ko4's are dramatically beyond the quoted power potentials listed by BW.

Why you would even bring this up, I have no idea. You have more experience than most and have been around for a long time so you should know better.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> You don't believe everything you read all the time do you?
> 
> Its very simple, Garrett releases normalized data across a wide range of variables to obtain a safe average that they can expect the majority of their customer base to be able to reproduce.
> 
> ...


What you are saying is in a nutshell called changing the efficiency of the turbo, and yes i am a firm believer of that.I am doing EXACTLY the same to my car, albeit using a "humble" K04...

BUT....there is always a limit to what an engine can make, and a limit to what a turbo can provide.If i told you i am making 450 bhp with a K04 because of my mods...would you believe it ?
I don't think so, simply because it just CAN'T flow that much, even if i put drag cams in the engine, idle at 2000 rpm, and port the head so much,gases flow like a gay dude's ahole...

I don't claim to be an expert in turbo's , far from it, but if those that are, say it's not happening...i think i'll just step back and listen...

And if you have actually done it..that's awesome...Just find someone with the same HP and have a few runs...That should clear things up nicely. :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

So, in a nutshell you are saying we are lying.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> So, in a nutshell you are saying we are lying.


As i already said above, i am not an expert to judge if you are lying or not.

I simply agreed with Issam's opinion about the turbo not being able to flow that much as far as i know.

It's to him, or other techs you have to "prove" you aren't.

To me you might as well be making 600 bhp...i'm not here to shop Arin


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Oh and one other thing that just came to mind...

Having another look at the curve you posted, one can see the 515 bhp claim is obtained for almost 100-200 rpm, and then power simply drops off.

Overall, excluding that "bump" in power, one is probably not likely to notice on the road (100 rpm lasts like a tenth of a second), power seems around 480-485 bhp, which is where previous stage 3 claims were...

Does that really prove the turbo can make 515 bhp ?

EDIT: i just saw your graph said AT THE WHEELS...were your stage 3 dyno's at the wheels also ?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> What you are saying is in a nutshell called changing the efficiency of the turbo, and yes i am a firm believer of that.I am doing EXACTLY the same to my car, albeit using a "humble" K04...
> 
> BUT....there is always a limit to what an engine can make, and a limit to what a turbo can provide.If i told you i am making 450 bhp with a K04 because of my mods...would you believe it ?
> I don't think so, simply because it just CAN'T flow that much, even if i put drag cams in the engine, idle at 2000 rpm, and port the head so much,gases flow like a gay dude's ahole...
> ...


There isn't a single turbo expert on this forum, much less on this thread.

Until we have an explanation of how Garrett arrived at their power ratings for their turbo's, we won't know why our outlier exists.

We do know our outlier definitely exists, its the why that can be debated.

The data is the proof.

Yes, dyno graphs can be faked but an easier question to ask, "Do APR clients have problems recreating APR's dyno graphs?"

There has to be some trust at some point. I think we've done a pretty good job of building that.

A best secondary measure of power output would be MAF. We can more than likely provide that data for you as additional evidence/proof of our claims.

I'm sure Poko will race someone at some point.

Furthermore, what other comparison do you even have? Is there any other 2.0T FSI with similar build specs to us? Well, no. There isn't.

Did Garrett try our build when they rated the turbo? No.

You pay attention to Motorsport, right? You realize engines built for motorsport perform nothing like engines built for street cars, right?

If you knew our stock turbo power numbers on our race cars at 11.5 psi, you would lose your mind.

Its just a different ball game entirely.

Real R&D and real innovations that cost real money yield better results. There is just no way around that.

Everyone wants more for less but those that are willing to pay more get the most. Its just a simple fact of life.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Oh and one other thing that just came to mind...
> 
> Having another look at the curve you posted, one can see the 515 bhp claim is obtained for almost 100-200 rpm, and then power simply drops off.
> 
> ...


I am not sure what you mean. This car is shown WHP and typically, our goapr.com dyno's are BHP.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Keith,
I will just agree to disagree on this one


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

INA said:


> Keith,
> I will just agree to disagree on this one


Which part?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> You pay attention to Motorsport, right? You realize engines built for motorsport perform nothing like engines built for street cars, right?


I think i remember another car from [email protected] that had similar mods except the ported head Poko is running, with same parts and specs and with the same turbo (2871R and APR stage 3+) and he only got 420whp with custom tuning...

So how is it possible that this setup makes 100 WHEEL horsepower more than 3 years ago ?
I think it is still in the Vortex archives somewhere, i'll see if i can find it.Best proof would be for Poko to run low 11 or high 10s passes, or i doubt its anywhere near 500whp.

As i said above making that power on a 2871R is like me saying i make 400 whp on my K04 REGARDLESS my other mods...You might as well use rocket fuel..


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> I think i remember another car from [email protected] that had similar mods except the ported head Poko is running, with same parts and specs and with the same turbo (2871R and APR stage 3+) and he only got 420whp with custom tuning...
> 
> So how is it possible that this setup makes 100 WHEEL horsepower more than 3 years ago ?
> I think it is still in the Vortex archives somewhere, i'll see if i can find it.Best proof would be for Poko to run low 11 or high 10s passes, or i doubt its anywhere near 500whp.
> ...


Greg's car was nothing like Poko's car other than they both used an APR Stage 3 for the turbo system.

The drag times will be easy to come by.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Greg's car was nothing like Poko's car other than they both used an APR Stage 3 for the turbo system.
> 
> The drag times will be easy to come by.


Nothing like ?

Isn't the only difference the cylinder head ?

I remember his also had removed balance shafts and built bottom end, and also used race fuel.

Maybe you can enlighten us how the cylinder head can make +100 whp ?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Nothing like ?
> 
> Isn't the only difference the cylinder head ?
> 
> ...


cams, head work, blueprinting, balanced rotating assembly, flapper delete, etc.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> cams, head work, blueprinting, balanced rotating assembly, flapper delete, etc.


Ahh...i see...So lets break this down...

Cams 10 whp ?20 ?
Head 10 whp ?20 ?
Blueprinting...hmmm...5 whp ??
Balanced assembly....hmmm 2 whp ?
Flapper delete....i'll give you like...5 whp...

So adding all up (with extreme values) the sums is 20+20+5+2+5=52 whp !!!

Wow !!!So where isthe other 48 whp coming from ??

I guess that means i have to get me some of that... "etc."...seems its WORTH EVERY PENNY !!!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Wow !!!So where isthe other 48 whp coming from ??


C16 Race fuel and calibration changes. 


We were able to reach MBT with this fuel. Achieving more timing at this point did not add more power.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Ahh...i see...So lets break this down...
> 
> Cams 10 whp ?20 ?
> Head 10 whp ?20 ?
> ...


lol, you really just hate it when someone moves your cheese, huh?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> lol, you really just hate it when someone moves your cheese, huh?


Well good cheese is hard to come by...

Its almost like good horsepower.....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Well good cheese is hard to come by...
> 
> Its almost like good horsepower.....


That's why there is only one APR.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> That's why there is only one APR.


WHAT !!!!!???

You guys make CHEESE too ??


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> WHAT !!!!!???
> 
> You guys make CHEESE too ??


That's the new product idea I've been looking for!

Engineered cheese.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> That's the new product idea I've been looking for!
> 
> Engineered cheese.


I thought we stopped talking about Poko's engine :laugh:


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

BigNuts said:


> If anyone believes 513whp from a 2871 and 400whp from the 28rs, please send me a PM. I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


:facepalm: :laugh:


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> I thought we stopped talking about Poko's engine :laugh:


no matter how badly you want others success to turn into a failure, Poko will be enjoying his car for a very long time.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> no matter how badly you want others success to turn into a failure, Poko will be enjoying his car for a very long time.


Nope...I don't Keith.

Poko is just another customer and i wish him the BEST.I'm sure he paid a pretty penny
to get this dyno...which is why you gave it to him...

Just keep in mind this is the technical forum, and not goapr.com


----------



## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

Why are all four wheels spinning in that dyno video? Is that GTI AWD or what?


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

if you are talking about the one arin put up about my gti, it is an all wheel dyno. when they hook up the car they program it for either front wheels, rear wheels, or all wheels, so it will only read what it is program to read. but all 4 spinn.


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> As i said above making that power on a 2871R is like me saying i make 400 whp on my K04 REGARDLESS my other mods...You might as well use rocket fuel..


Golf RS are you from Greece? Do not say too much about turbos and ko4 specificaly, because a friend of mine here in Greece has a leon cupra ko4 tfsi with 430+ bhp and no headwork yet...

So, listen to a more expert than you like Keith, because we do not know where do you want to lead your opinion by doubting this perfect result (Poko's car), which beleive me can not be acheived by any other company except from Apr which is far away in calibration............


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

haris-cupra-apr-Greece said:


> Golf RS are you from Greece? Do not say too much about turbos and ko4 specificaly, because a friend of mine here in Greece has a leon cupra ko4 tfsi with 430+ bhp and no headwork yet...
> 
> So, listen to a more expert than you like Keith, because we do not know where do you want to lead your opinion by doubting this perfect result (Poko's car), which beleive me can not be acheived by any other company except from Apr which is far away in calibration............


Yes....430+ bhp...Since you seem to know a lot of things, do you also know how he got that 430 bhp?Oh and you failed to mention what software the is using.What not say that also ?

As for APR, i didn't expect you to say anything more.You paid them, and you want what you paid to be true.It's a fact of life.


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> Yes....430+ bhp...Since you seem to know a lot of things, do you also know how he got that 430 bhp?Oh and you failed to mention what software the is using.What not say that also ?
> 
> As for APR, i didn't expect you to say anything more.You paid them, and you want what you paid to be true.It's a fact of life.


Dear Golf Rs yes the car that I mentioned has a Revo file. I used to have a Revo fille in my car as well. But from the moment that I went to the Apr stage 3 I made more whorsepower than what Garrett advertises in local MAHA dynos. I am ready to duplicate the HP that poko made and I always had more than support from APR and APR Greece.

One other fact that this forum needs to know is that you actually don't exist. I race my car almost every night at the local spots but I don't even know your name. You mostly live in the US than Greece and olny through the keyboard...
:screwy::what::wave:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

haris-cupra-apr-Greece said:


> Dear Golf Rs yes the car that I mentioned has a Revo file. I used to have a Revo fille in my car as well. But from the moment that I went to the Apr stage 3 I made more whorsepower than what Garrett advertises in local MAHA dynos. I am ready to duplicate the HP that poko made and I always had more than support from APR and APR Greece.
> 
> One other fact that this forum needs to know is that you actually don't exist. I race my car almost every night at the local spots but I don't even know your name. You mostly live in the US than Greece and olny through the keyboard...
> :screwy::what::wave:


Hahaha..now that was funny...I have never been called a ghost before.I should have my secretary make you an appointment, cause i really didn't know you were looking for me.... 

So i see you are comparing a Revo K04 car to your 2871R turbo..interesting...
You also neglected to mention by how much the K04 Revo car beat you on the street when you raced him :laugh: (see, i know more than you think..).So yeah, by all means get the same stuff that Poko has, and maybe then you will be able to *beat a K04 car*...

I think now you see i live more in Greece than anywhere else, and APR BS doesn't always get swallowed whole....


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> Hahaha..now that was funny...I have never been called a ghost before.I should have my secretary make you an appointment, cause i really didn't know you were looking for me....
> 
> So i see you are comparing a Revo K04 car to your 2871R turbo..interesting...
> You also neglected to mention by how much the K04 Revo car beat you on the street when you raced him :laugh: (see, i know more than you think..).So yeah, by all means get the same stuff that Poko has, and maybe then you will be able to *beat a K04 car*...
> ...


This car never beated me. It is much slower than me
Here is the video from a race that we did. I am the car upfront!!!:wave:


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

Revo not even coming close....


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Hahaha...are you stepping on the gas in that video ?

Cause i think the car behind is stopping to park... :laugh:

But hey , here are 2 more videos of an APR stage 3 setup, against a humble stock K04...

Not really impressive for APR is it??












Is your car that slow also ??


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

OH...i'm sorry...

That IS YOUR CAR isn't it.... ?? :what::laugh:


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> OH...i'm sorry...
> 
> That IS YOUR CAR isn't it.... ?? :what::laugh:


This is an Apr stage 3 car from Crete which is 50hp weaker than mine (and that night had 95 octane petrol by accident of the petrol station!), and the race that you saw us has 300 meters yet and the difference becomes wider. This is a red one, mine is white as you can see in the previous video. Whatever it is why do you become happy? Apr car is in front in every race, in any case!! I live in Athens and I have never lost from another tfsi yet. Do you have something to run with my car??


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

haris-cupra-apr-Greece said:


> This is an Apr stage 3 car from Crete which is 50hp weaker than mine (and that night had 95 octane petrol by accident of the petrol station!), and the race that you saw us has 300 meters yet and the difference becomes wider. This is a red one, mine is white as you can see in the previous video. Whatever it is why do you become happy? Apr car is in front in every race, in any case!! I live in Athens and I have never lost from another tfsi yet. Do you have something to run with my car??


I see hanging out with APR has also made you good in excuses.

So wait...the guy went for a drag race with 95 octane petrol in the tank by accident....
That's funny...Does 95 petrol 2871R make the same horsepower as a K04 ??
Interesting...I know i wouldn't race by "accident" if i knew i put garbage in my gas tank...

Also you say you have 50 hp more than that car ?So if we take it that that car is making 380 bhp
from a K04 (which is an EXCELLENT result for a K04, lets forget 430 you said), you actually have 430 bhp ALSO ??Cause those cars are almost next to each other....

Or maybe the K04 also had 95 gas in the tank...Yeah....that's it....

So congratulations on 430 bhp with a 2871R...That is more than what other stage 3 cars make in the U.S.... :thumbup:


----------



## haris-cupra-apr-Greece (Nov 13, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> I see hanging out with APR has also made you good in excuses.
> 
> So wait...the guy went for a drag race with 95 octane petrol in the tank by accident....
> That's funny...Does 95 petrol 2871R make the same horsepower as a K04 ??
> ...


I got bored of you.
You do not exist in this sport.
Your pleasure is to comment on other people's races because the only race you have done is to bit yourself writing faster on your keyboard. Whenever you feel better and stronger with your slow car, live your keyboard alone and pm me to have a race with me because even tonight I will be out for streetdrag races, but you won't for one more time!!
So the conclusion is that you are nothing on the road and even worst nothing in the keyboard.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

haris-cupra-apr-Greece said:


> I got bored of you.
> You do not exist in this sport.
> Your pleasure is to comment on other people's races because the only race you have done is to bit yourself writing faster on your keyboard. Whenever you feel better and stronger with your slow car, live your keyboard alone and pm me to have a race with me because even tonight I will be out for streetdrag races, but you won't for one more time!!
> So the conclusion is that you are nothing on the road and even worst nothing in the keyboard.



Wow....:what:

I think you have been watching too much "Fast and Furious"... :sly::facepalm:

LOL....


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Wow....:what:
> 
> I think you have been watching too much "Fast and Furious"... :sly::facepalm:
> 
> LOL....


lol, you might want to ask yourself why he took a F&F approach with you.


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Wow....:what:
> 
> I think you have been watching too much "Fast and Furious"... :sly::facepalm:
> 
> LOL....


That movie is the sh*t.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> lol, you might want to ask yourself why he took a F&F approach with you.


Cause he can't tell a screwdriver from a hammer ?


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

:thumbup:


$GTI07$ said:


> That movie is the sh*t.


----------



## THE TRUE FASTGTI (Jan 28, 2010)

Poko 

did you end up installing a LSD? is so what one did you use and how is the comparison to the open diff?


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

THE TRUE FASTGTI said:


> Poko
> 
> did you end up installing a LSD? is so what one did you use and how is the comparison to the open diff?


+1, and in this case, Is your car stick or DGS?

Thanks!


----------



## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Wow....:what:
> 
> I think you have been watching too much "Fast and Furious"... :sly::facepalm:
> 
> LOL....


:heart:


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Cause he can't tell a screwdriver from a hammer ?


Missed you at the XO last week!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Missed you at the XO last week!


Haha...

Don't you mean OX ?? :laugh:


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

Great Cupra!!!!!!!!!!!


----------

