# 7-800 HP 16v for drag project, discussion.



## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Being a fairly knowledgeable 16VT builder and tuner, and rather inspired by a certain 8 sec german golf
My buddy and i want to build a drag car, most likely in a rabbit, maybe mk2.

We well know we wont come close to his achievements, however we do know we can do pretty well 
into the 10's, HOPEFULLY

We will be running a fully prepped PL 1.8 16v, with 81.5 mm wossner turbo pistons all ARP hardware
balenced rotating assembly, need to get rods, part of the discussion reason, looking for killer hardware
and recomemndations on such things. Also seeing if 0-ringing the block would be feasable.

The head will be redone with high rev goodies, in the springs, and retainers etc.

Drive train will come out of audi TT gen 1, with haldex controller.

Turbo will also be of discussion, the motor will be ran on E-85 with dual stage injectors (8)
want to be shifting around 9000 up to 45-50 psi of boost.

Please chime in with any thoughts!


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## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

Aaron is making 750AWP with Integrated Engineering Tuscan rods on his "1.8"t


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Nice, i was hoping that IE would have something, they are generally very reasonably priced.

What are thoughts on a GT40 turbo, that should do it eh? 37-40PSI?

also thinking a surge tank supplied by a large volume low pressure (i.e. the summit 10 or so PSI, 140 GPH)
with twin walbro 255 or even two new stock rabbit pumps?


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

Pte 6776


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Half the things on your list are not needed to go 10s.


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

Yeah, sounds more like a mid 9's car lol


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Going to need to beef up the drawers... thinking Depends would probably hold. :laugh: 

In for progress - I know you boys have plenty of capability up there. :thumbup:


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

with my old 16v setup the best turbo combination i ran was the precision 6265. i actually went mid 10's in a full street car with the 6262, aba 16v motor with stock port head and stock cams.


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Thank for the input everyone, a bit of over-building it is in order, got to be dead nuts reliable....
we wouldnt be upset in the 9's, however just thinking if i can roll a 10.xx i would be chuffed, and is 
relatively achievable. i am fighting 5300 feet of altitude too 

nice, please keep the input coming, could use all the help i can get!


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Also turbodub. what were you running for boost? and is/was yours the white corrado?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Turbodub is a black mk3 golf. Car is now 20v. I believe he ran mid 40s of boost. We def pegged the map sensor a few times.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

German 8 sec. car speak of runs a GTX4202R and an seq. 4 spd dogbox. And 65 psi of boost.


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

^ thats the one dredz, i tried to find more build spec on it but, couldnt find much more than that.
was curious of his injector size, rods, diffs or no, i did see it has a billet crankshaft, and tops 1013 hp
@65 psi, and a top speed over 200 mph. and amazingly it runs only RS2 pistons! some stout SOB's maybe
from an earlier spec tho..... still impressive as f*ck!


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

did you check their website?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

kompressorgolf said:


> ^ thats the one dredz, i tried to find more build spec on it but, couldnt find much more than that.
> was curious of his injector size, rods, diffs or no, i did see it has a billet crankshaft, and tops 1013 hp
> @65 psi, and a top speed over 200 mph. and amazingly it runs only RS2 pistons! some stout SOB's maybe
> from an earlier spec tho..... still impressive as f*ck!




And the latest numbers are 8.65 @ 16X mph. 

















> KR 16V cylinder head rebuilt with reinforced Ventilferdern on mechanical bucket tappets and camshafts. image: tappets
> 
> 1Z diesel block with reinforcement plate. image: 1Z diesel block
> 
> ...


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

I seen that cars videos awhile ago! The part where it blows the exhaust vacuum hose away is just amazing. So much flow. Oh, and I LOVE the ignition of unspent fuel just after throttle let off. BOOM!


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

anyone make a block girdle for these motors? also is there a new vid of the 8.63 run?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Girdle - yes, along with billet main caps and some other engineered bits here:

http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/components/main-bearing-girdles-caps-new4.htm


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Here is a pass from Turbodub's car when it was a 16v with a 62mm turbo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw1H1dtrAnY&feature=plcp&list=PL18A043D0A1CD895B

Here are a few from Turbodub's car as it is currently, with a 1.8 20v and 67mm turbo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbdrTROL7zw&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xouwZw4fxZg&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cb3jb-GagU&feature=plcp


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Int Eng make a girdle for 06X block. Most likely not needed.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Whats different between the 1Z diesel block vs. the KR/PL/9A? Or .even an ABA/ABF...

I'm betting that solid lifter conv. plays a big part in those high hp numbers. Higher rev + it allows you to run a more aggressive cam(s). 

Another thing. They state its a 1.8 when in fact its a 2.0L.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Oh...Repoman made some good numbers with his 16vt and i think his setup was similar to Todd's.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

With a 1.8 liter engine, you will need to either be a good driver to get a dogbox if you put that big of a turbo in it (GT4202, 74mm inducer)

You could go easy 9's with AWD and a moderate turbo.

GT4088R turbo would do it, that's good for low 700's whp on E85. It would have a pretty good powerband too.

Here is Todd's old 16v dyno. 28-38 psi (holding it back in the middle because of wheel spin on the dyno)
Precision 62/65, T3 hotside, pump E85, 4 injectors (1600cc), 2x Bosch 044 pumps, stock fuel tank and tank pump with surge tank. About 44 psi boost on the track. ABA block, 92.8mm crank, 16v head, 10+ compression ratio (also ran it successfully with 11.3-1cr), hydraulic lifters, just valves/springs/retainers. Schrick 268 cams. Revved to to about 8,800 rpm.
No block girdle. No oil system mods. Never had a problem with either.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Kevin. Its a 2.0L (not that it makes a difference)

I think this thread is geared more towards what it takes to extract the most outta the 16v....And i think Boba achieve that. My question is can it be done with a different combo? 1000whp in any VW engine is a feat in itself. I'm sure the 1/4 mile numbers can be achieved with less power. I'm curious as to how they got the power they've gotten without grenading the engine. They're using relative off the shelf parts aside from the solid lifter conversion.


I would love to see a VR with solid lifters


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

The original poster has a 1.8 engine:

>

As for the other car, it grenades an engine each race. Lots of race cars do, weather people admit or not, lol. 

What combo are you looking to hit 1000whp with? 

20v, already done a few times. 

24v vr6, done. 

12v vr6, I'll find the limits of that when the weather comes around, (currently at 770+ wheel HP in the heat, far past what the experts say the vr6 is good for) and if it lifts the head I will just put a big ratchet strap around the engine.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Oh, i thought you were taking about Boba Racing's 16vt.  He was using it as a reference. Even though they list it as a 1.8L. It is in fact a 2.0L...if the piston size didn't give it away. i dunno if the extra .2L of displacement makes any difference.

I'm sure the OP isn't trying to go that far. I was mostly commenting & asking question out of self curiosity. Sorry for kind've thread jacking this  Boba squeezed every bit out of their 16v. I'm really amazed at the power they've achieved with the combo of parts they used. 8.63 is nothing to sneeze at...... For me at least. lol


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

There setup may have been a 1.9 block but it is 2.0 now. Maybe they mean 1.8 head


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

lugnuts said:


> and if it lifts the head I will just put a big ratchet strap around the engine.


:laugh:


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Okay, so from what im reading, with my ideas a mid-low 10 sec pass is very reasonable.

i do want to use the 1.8 PL block as i have one and its ready for abuse (brand new machined)
will run 4 motion, but would diffs front and back be needed? input?

i larger precision billet wheel should do the trick i.e. a 6776. NOW would twin scroll be necesarry?
we will be commin out the hole in launch control, pros cons.....?

now my pistons are at about 8.0-1, should i sell those and run 10.0-1 or so since e-85 will be used or 
is that enough to play with still?

also 4 1600 cc injectors would be enough>? no need for staged injection?

Lots of great input here, now many extreme HP how to's out there thanks for all the help fellas!

got to raise the eyebrows of all these farmers out here. :thumbup::wave:


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

58 or 62mm billet Precision will be plenty for mid-tens without making the car a complete lag-monster. I wouldn't worry about a divided manifold. Run whatever pistons you have. 4x1600cc will be enough for what you need on E-85-- just combine them with dual 044's.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

What are you doing for management? One of the things to consider is 16v block does not have internal 60-2 trigger wheel.


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## 2ToneTurbo (Feb 15, 2007)

Easier said then done. Sorry but true. I currently run aba16vt with a 6262. Best power so far 478/390 went [email protected] .


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Going to run SDS, easy to tune, very familiar with the system and is capable. We may not see the #s we 
want but, well still be fast. thats all were after.


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Obviously not as easily done as said, what are you running for boost? FWD or AWD? we WILL be pushing
the limits of a 3 bar map sensor, i.e. 40-45 PSI, maybe even have SDS put in a 4 bar setup in the ecu. and all wheel, it should launch close to what Boba's car does maybe not as crazy tho. should be pushing 1.4-1.5 60 ft's.

The best thing i love about that german golf, is that it doesnt look like much at all, and thats what we will
be doing with a rabbit, pretty plain, whatever we find for a base car, it will remain the same look on the
outside, and we will tuck the cage into the bodywork as much as possible to keep it out of view, from the
rear obviously youll be able to see the cage tho. steelies with drag radials. However the paint is, it stays, haha


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Their power lies in the combo of parts they used. Solid lifter 16v is a whole new ball game. Being that it can freely rev far past the stock limiter, they can get away with running such a big turbo. They have the room to spool that thing. Its making peak power at 7k rpm.

I like how they're using what looks like 2 ABF fuel rails with dual FPRs.









KMS standalone ain't no joke either. Check out some of their dyno sesh'z


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Just an FYI all the talk about it being a 2.0 is wrong, the car that is running a 1Z block and what not is a totally 
different car altogether 

this:http://www.boba-motoring.de/?knopf=2011datenblatt#schliessen is Boba himselfs car, 

the 1.8 KR belongs to a 16Vampir, one of his guys. just wanted to clear that up most of the pics 
dont work of Vampirs 1.8 KR engine. 

Another thing im curious about is if there are diffs installed front or back, or both etc....


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Twindisc clutch i asume you should go for. The Germans love their Sachs RCS twindiscs, but it costs almost twice from a CM-FX850


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

ive looked for the ZF sachs rcs-200 for sale but cant seem to find anyone who sells it! 

going twin disc for sure, just have to choose, wont be spec haha, even tho my spec stage 4+ in my rabbit 
is amazing


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

IMO don't waste your time trying to make that sort of power on SDS. Not enough fail safes, features or functions to suit your needs to run that sort of power at the track. 

Sure it may get you to the power, but controlling boost, managing sensors and preventing failures is seriously lacking with SDS.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I think much of the fail safe will be the physical limitation of the parts used... if you're boosting 45psi then chances are you're not worried about _overboost_. Rev limit is easy enough to program with sds... air to fuel is easy to tunethe and watch in real time. The challenge as I see it will be fine tuning the ignition on the dyno when at the high boost levels. Sds does have knock control from what I recall... what else do you need really?

-Andrew


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

/\ Yes the mechanical items themselves have their limitation... but I just wanted to chuck in my opinion of SDS since it was brought up. 

SDS does have knock detection but it sucks. 

How about EGT, or Water fail safes? Wouldn't those be great to have at the track? 

Or how about boost control, you want to get to 45PSI, you're just going to spend hundreds of dollars getting a decent controller to do that. Why not spend a bit more for an ECU that can do that all in one. 

Also, what about data logging. You plan on building a 10 or even 9 second car. Wouldn't you like to be able to see what's gone on after a pass down the track to help improve your times? 

Having an ECU that control all your settings in one place makes a world of difference IMO. When you can cut boost, or increase fuel when something goes sour it can certainly help. 

I run SDS it works yes... but I've been itching to get out of it because of all the things listed above. I'm only at 400whp and I'm at the point where I feel limited in what I can do with it.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

the SDS comes with a 3 bar map sensor which only equates to 29psi of boost. Do they support aftermarket 4,5,7 BAR map sensors?


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## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

Just my 2 cents- get a "fully built SEM" and run an engine you can afford. Race it, and learn the SEM and tweak it for your setup. In the off season, build up to the fully built engine you want, at least all the SEM components will be there to support your major investment, and if you pop a stockish set up, at least your not out a full out race spec engine. FWIW, my pauters cost as much as a lugtronic. My SDS,LM1,MSD, 3 step, water meth kit, gizzmo boost controller added up over the years and have wires to each component. I cant even data log, not alone data log my fuel pressure, boost, coolant ect ect ect. A good SEM will do all that in one little box. Good luck, spend wisely.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

This isn't their first go at standalone or 16v turbo... sending them to farm league isn't what advice they need.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

DieGTi said:


> This isn't their first go at standalone or 16v turbo... sending them to farm league isn't what advice they need.


 so how come they are asking advice on how to make a measly 800hp?


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Because its not so easy to make 800 from a 1.8 16v, or there would be alot more of them out there. 

For instance Jeebus runs a GT3076R ( i believe) which is a pretty large damn turbo, and hes 400whp, dyno tuned 

another SDS man on here is runnin a stock block stock head, stacked hg's (spgolf) i believe, and hes over 
400 whp @ if i remember 22-23 PSI. Thinking about making twice this seems like a tough feat, and the 
purpose of this thread is to drop a little insight on what it takes to accomplish this. 

I am fully aware SDS may not be the best option, but i believe its fully capable of making the number. 
I am sure a phone call to SDS would be all it takes to drop in a 4-5-6 whatever bar map sensor, 10000 RPM 
capability, staged injection etc etc. 

This thread isnt to show me how to do it. I tune all my own cars and no-one helped me there, believe me 
i tried to get it, but i got it done. 

I am experienced with 16vt and tuning, etc. but to go to this next level. i.e. twice the power of most (normal) 
16vt's i am only seeking advice and input for myself and some harcore discusion on what it takes to do this, 
hardware suggestions, software suggestions, belive me im taking notes, and hopefully others too, please keep the info 
and suggestions coming, its great to see Some of the Lugnutz crew in here, IMO the pioneers of huge power vw's in this side of the pond. i appreciate and respect everyones input here, and hope it keeps rollng in. Thanks fellas!


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I dont see you making 800whp on a Gt3076. Put a turbo on that has enough flow for 800whp and you will have better luck.


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

No no, i know, was just saying Jeebus uses that on his car, were looking into the Precision 6776 and the 
Garrett GT40 line for ours. Again appreciate all the info in this thread, we are open to using other standalones 
too, hell maybe even bust some lugnutz tuning on it, just have to see what we can spend, and where. 

on another note, we sourced our audi TT 225 parts car today, has a hole in the trans case from an encouner 
with the earth, but the gears and such are fine, and we have another trans lined up! The plan for the drive-train 
are to mate the TT floor with the rabbit body, much like Nash and the guys at Eurowise did, however, we may 
just make our own subframe mounts and use everything from the TT onto the rabbit shell. I guess well see.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

My suggestion is ditch the 9a and do an ABA which has proven to make power, or maybe one of the 06x blocks which have also proven to hold that sort of power. 

Good luck.


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Yeah, thats what i run in my rabbit is a aba 16vt, i want to use the PL 1.8 because i have wossner turbo pistons 
and a brand new machined block thats all ready to go already, and obviously it can perform what i ask. 

am considering the 06x, BTW your 06x block/build looks incredible, nice work once again David!


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Thanks, looking forward to turning it up.


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## Rado.16vT (May 25, 2005)

I used to run SDS, used, now I run a much more advanced ecu, no point going for such high hp on an ancient ecu like sds, is simple but dosent have all the benefits of the more advanced stuff.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

bonesaw said:


> I dont see you making 800whp on a Gt3076. Put a turbo on that has enough flow for 800whp and you will have better luck.


 How does the turbo HP rating go? Is that 800hp turbo max at 800hp or at its most efficient?


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

The plan is changing, very possible another ECU setup will be going in, really leaning towards Lugnutz's stuff 
see so many good things, everyone raves, and Kevin's tech support sounds second to none, and hes proved 
he can get us where we need to go, i got ALOT of build threads to read and mucho research to do, i know the 
concept is pretty much the same, as long as im packing my tuning knowledge, its true the SDS doesnt have 
the clarity of these others out there nowadays. Brought home my TT to begin planning the drivetrain swap.. 
Again, probably going the Nash/Eurowise style, just integrate the whole floor into the rabbit, well try not to 
Narrow the track width, a little extra stability @ 150+ MPH through the traps wont be a bad thing. This bish might start turning into a build thread! may just start a fresh one tho! Thanks again everyone for the input. keep it coming!


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## A2TDI (Apr 8, 2004)

well if your goals are mid 10's ..550 hp and a good suspension setup should be plenty...especially if its an awd rabbit..

Jeff


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

kompressorgolf said:


> well try not to Narrow the track width, a little extra stability @ 150+ MPH through the traps wont be a bad thing. This bish might start turning into a build thread! may just start a fresh one tho! Thanks again everyone for the input. keep it coming!


narrower is more stable (pendulum effect)

:beer:


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