# Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results!



## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

Here are the results of a UOA I had done on my GTI. The results show that after 5k the oil was not protecting my engine very well. It has sheared to about a 5w30, with high acid and fuel dilution. It also shows high iron wear from the cam chains, another sign that the oil was finished. I am very happy that I have not ever followed the recommended VW 10k oil change interval. IMO VW is encouraging practices which are causing unnecessary wear on our engines which will not show up until well after the warranty expires. Anyhow I hope this is useful information to my fellow owners. 
Vehicle 2006 VW GTI 2.0T FSI Engine
Miles on engine 35,020
Oil type Castrol Syntec 05w40 (USA)
Miles on oil 5,049
Time on oil 2 months
Oil capacity 5 qts
Oil added None
Oil filter Mann OEM
Air filter VW OEM (15,000 since change)
Driving Use 80%Highway, 20% city
Sampling taken at oil change
Iron 24
Copper 2
Aluminum 3
Chromium 1
Tin 0
Lead 2
Nickel 1
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Molybdenum 3
Magnesium 733
Calcium 1004
Phosphoru 945
Zinc 881
Barium 0 
Potassium 0
Boron 7
Silicon 4
Sodium 8
V40C 56.4
V100C 10.3
TAN 5.6
Flash 305
OXID 14
NIT 14
KF 1015
TBN 4.5
FUEL 1.42
SOOT 0
GLYCOL 0
vndx 174
sulfate by product 20


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## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

Thats a good bit of fuel. I wouldn't go 10k on a FSI motor... these things are too foul.


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## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_Thats a good bit of fuel. I wouldn't go 10k on a FSI motor... these things are too foul.

Exactly, this Syntec was shot within 4,000 miles, and I have seen results for M1 0w40 which were as bad if not worse. It looks like I am going to have to go off of the VW approved list for a uber lube (Amsoil, RLI) for this bruiser of an engine.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (JosephH1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JosephH1* »_
Exactly, this Syntec was shot within 4,000 miles, and I have seen results for M1 0w40 which were as bad if not worse. It looks like I am going to have to go off of the VW approved list for a uber lube (Amsoil, RLI) for this bruiser of an engine. 

Amsoil performed worse than Castrol 0w30 in my engine. Flashpoint was horribly low after 3500 miles. 
Dave


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_Thats a good bit of fuel. I wouldn't go 10k on a FSI motor... these things are too foul.

I agree. I haven't seen a single UOA that could convince me to go over 3-5k on this motor.


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

you guys figure out what is the best most stable oil for our cars? This information is kinda scarey.. I dont want to have to replace my engine after warranty is up


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (bwzimmerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_you guys figure out what is the best most stable oil for our cars? This information is kinda scarey.. I dont want to have to replace my engine after warranty is up

I don't believe people are going to be replacing their motors after a lifetime of 10k intervals on approved oil. I may just show better cylinder compression numbers than those who would...








I've found that with Castrol 0W-30 I can keep my wear metals low and keep the oil from shearing too much from fuel dilution. I also change my oil every 3k miles. The add-pack in the Castrol is still going strong so I might try and push it longer. You have to be careful with UOAs and really think about what you are looking at. If you change your oil every 3k and your wear metals are low but after 3 canges you are seeing the same wear levels as just one oil change over that whole interval you haven't gained a thing. In fact if your add-pack levels are still strong you've just waisted money. But if fuel dilution is causing your viscosity to drop it can increase wear in high-shear areas like your cams, main bearings, and the dreaded HPFP cam lobe (dun-dun-dun). It's a balancing act that is best performed with UOAs.
I am also fully aware I am not using a VW/Audi approved oil. I also have UOAs to back up my choices should VWOA question my oil change habits... In the end it is a risk/reward thing. VW recently approved a 5W-30 which should become available at your local dealer and is purported to be based on a castrol 5w-30 recipe. It will even be coming in a gold Castrol bottle.







It will be worth a closer look for sure and a VOA is in the works. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The key is to test and check.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

My service adviser swears by the Castrol Euro Formula 0w-30 and assures me that my warranty will remain intact should I choose to use it. He says its a thicker 30...more like a 40. Dunno what dung he's trying to sell me, but its cheaper than paying for dealer oil and he hasn't steered me wrong yet.


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## Deception (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Amsoil performed worse than Castrol 0w30 in my engine. Flashpoint was horribly low after 3500 miles. 
Dave

I'm using German Castrol 0W-30, too. Only issue I notice about the 2.0T is that I have to add a bit of oil every month to top her off.
Which Amsoil variant were you using? The 5W-40 European formula?


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## Deception (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_I am also fully aware I am not using a VW/Audi approved oil. I also have UOAs to back up my choices should VWOA question my oil change habits... In the end it is a risk/reward thing. VW recently approved a 5W-30 which should become available at your local dealer and is purported to be based on a castrol 5w-30 recipe. It will even be coming in a gold Castrol bottle.







It will be worth a closer look for sure and a VOA is in the works. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The key is to test and check.

Castrol 0W-30 is approved for 502.00, API SL, etc. on its bottle, and 502.00 is what VW asks for in the owner's manual. If push comes to shove, you can easily show that you have been using an approved oil by showing them the bottle and the manual.


_Modified by Deception at 11:17 AM 2-6-2008_


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## Deception (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (bwzimmerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_you guys figure out what is the best most stable oil for our cars? This information is kinda scarey.. I dont want to have to replace my engine after warranty is up

The Castrol Syntec 5W-40 that dealers sell is crappy oil. The "made in Germany" Castrol 0W-30 is a much better oil and many people use it in their 2.0T (myself included) with great results.


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## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
I don't believe people are going to be replacing their motors after a lifetime of 10k intervals on approved oil. I may just show better cylinder compression numbers than those who would...








I've found that with Castrol 0W-30 I can keep my wear metals low and keep the oil from shearing too much from fuel dilution. I also change my oil every 3k miles. The add-pack in the Castrol is still going strong so I might try and push it longer. You have to be careful with UOAs and really think about what you are looking at. If you change your oil every 3k and your wear metals are low but after 3 canges you are seeing the same wear levels as just one oil change over that whole interval you haven't gained a thing. In fact if your add-pack levels are still strong you've just waisted money. But if fuel dilution is causing your viscosity to drop it can increase wear in high-shear areas like your cams, main bearings, and the dreaded HPFP cam lobe (dun-dun-dun). It's a balancing act that is best performed with UOAs.
I am also fully aware I am not using a VW/Audi approved oil. I also have UOAs to back up my choices should VWOA question my oil change habits... In the end it is a risk/reward thing. VW recently approved a 5W-30 which should become available at your local dealer and is purported to be based on a castrol 5w-30 recipe. It will even be coming in a gold Castrol bottle.







It will be worth a closer look for sure and a VOA is in the works. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The key is to test and check.

I agree. You have to look at the whole picture when considering UOAs. My UOA actually indicates that the Syntec is OK for 3k miles. In fact the TBN was very healthy in my sample at 5k. HOWEVER the acids were high enough to begin to attack soft metals/bearings and fuel dilution was breaking the viz down. If you don't mind paying the Syn price every 3k, then I think you can use the approved list. If you are pushing out to 10k, another choice might be better. Cam replacements aree going to run $3-4k on the 2.0t, something I would like to avoind as long as possible.








I just think 2.0T owners should be making informed choices http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (JosephH1)*

Not looking to start another pissing contest, but just a few observations:
1. A normal engine doesn't have a lot of fuel build-up unless it's run short periods of time in cold weather or there is a mechanical issue. If your primary running is highway then something is amiss with your engine.
2. How did you determine that the high iron was from the timing chain wear and not wear some place else in the engine?
3. High acid is also a sign that something is amiss in your engine, not necessarily an oil issue. The fuel in the oil however could cause the viscosity to be in the 30 weight range at 100C.
Just so that we are clear here, I'm not saying the Castrol oil is good or bad. All I'm saying is I don't think you have an objective scientific basis to reach some of the conclusions you stated. I'd want to know where the fuel and acid came from and then re-test. Shearing to 30W is not a cause for significant engine wear.
A UOA is used to view trends and spot unusual changes. The fuel/acid is somewhat unusual, but not the shear. The "24" on iron is not particularly high and could be caused from cylinder wear, which is more likely than hardened steel chain wear. Be careful not to jump to conclusions based on UAO as it's a snapshot in time of how the engine is running - no more, no less. It's a useful tool, not an absolute regarding the oil or the engine.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_1. A normal engine doesn't have a lot of fuel build-up unless it's run short periods of time in cold weather or there is a mechanical issue. If your primary running is highway then something is amiss with your engine.

It's become readily apparent to those people running UOA's on their FSI cars (read: not just the 2.0T FSI, this also includes Audi's N/A FSI motors) that fuel dilution is higher than normal for whatever reason. It is speculative at this point but it is in fact happening.

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_2. How did you determine that the high iron was from the timing chain wear and not wear some place else in the engine?

Good point.  Until we look at a high mileage motor internally it is just speculation.

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_3. High acid is also a sign that something is amiss in your engine, not necessarily an oil issue. The fuel in the oil however could cause the viscosity to be in the 30 weight range at 100C.

Some oils, such as Mobil 1 0w-40, have shown through multiple UOA's that it cannot stand up to fuel dilution and often shears to a 30 weight in a short number of miles. Mobil 1 has shown through other testing to have good characteristics as well such as high resistance to high-temperature "coking". A great trait on a turbo motor!

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_Just so that we are clear here, I'm not saying the Castrol oil is good or bad. All I'm saying is I don't think you have an objective scientific basis to reach some of the conclusions you stated. I'd want to know where the fuel and acid came from and then re-test. Shearing to 30W is not a cause for significant engine wear.

That's great. In the mean time most of us are dealing with a daily driver and don't have the time or money to get to that level of detail. In place of that level of detail a reasonable alternative would be to try an oil, test it, and react, then test again, and repeat ad nauseum. So long as we all share data this process can be hastened and everyone can benefit. Cue the bluebirds chirping and the sun shining.
In all seriousness I think we are all just trying to figure it out. I also completely agree with your point which I understand to be that we shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_A UOA is used to view trends and spot unusual changes. The fuel/acid is somewhat unusual, but not the shear. The "24" on iron is not particularly high and could be caused from cylinder wear, which is more likely than hardened steel chain wear. Be careful not to jump to conclusions based on UAO as it's a snapshot in time of how the engine is running - no more, no less. It's a useful tool, not an absolute regarding the oil or the engine.

Absolutely.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Deception)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Deception* »_
I'm using German Castrol 0W-30, too. Only issue I notice about the 2.0T is that I have to add a bit of oil every month to top her off.
Which Amsoil variant were you using? The 5W-40 European formula?

Yes I was using the latest reformulation of Amsoil 5w40 with the reduced HTHS and viscosity.
Dave


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## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_Not looking to start another pissing contest, but just a few observations:
1. A normal engine doesn't have a lot of fuel build-up unless it's run short periods of time in cold weather or there is a mechanical issue. If your primary running is highway then something is amiss with your engine.
2. How did you determine that the high iron was from the timing chain wear and not wear some place else in the engine?
3. High acid is also a sign that something is amiss in your engine, not necessarily an oil issue. The fuel in the oil however could cause the viscosity to be in the 30 weight range at 100C.
Just so that we are clear here, I'm not saying the Castrol oil is good or bad. All I'm saying is I don't think you have an objective scientific basis to reach some of the conclusions you stated. I'd want to know where the fuel and acid came from and then re-test. Shearing to 30W is not a cause for significant engine wear.
A UOA is used to view trends and spot unusual changes. The fuel/acid is somewhat unusual, but not the shear. The "24" on iron is not particularly high and could be caused from cylinder wear, which is more likely than hardened steel chain wear. Be careful not to jump to conclusions based on UAO as it's a snapshot in time of how the engine is running - no more, no less. It's a useful tool, not an absolute regarding the oil or the engine.

I don't want a pissing contest either.








I don't believe that I am jumping to conclusions. There is a considerable history about these issues and direct injection engines, a lot of it over at BITOG. 
1. Everything I read (UOA's and oter materials) seem to indicate that these DI engines HAVE a history of fuel dilution. This is due to design and US emissions mapping causing a rich condition. Personally, this is my commuter car, 85 of my 90 commuter miles daily are at a steady 65 MPH on the highway. Little to no city driving. 
2. & 3. Sure I guess that it is possible it is coming from somewhere else. The expert working with me on my UOA seems to think it is from timing chain/cam wear. Given the TSB on these cars about soft cams, I find it credible at this time but only time will tell. I am just trying to match the best possible lube for this application. 
I have posted the results for informational purposes. I stated that these are my opinions, I am no expert. My sole goal here is to get 2.0T owners to think twice about leaving this oil in for 10k miles, or even better, get their own UOA done so they can see what is going on in their machine. I will be making some changes in lubricant and additives and I will be sure to post the next several UOAs here as well. It will be interesting!

















_Modified by JosephH1 at 7:18 PM 2-6-2008_


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## SofaKing_Uro (Aug 8, 2007)

So is there sufficient evidence to determine which oil works the best for the 2.0t engine? 
This is a new topic to me, what kind of additives to people use in their oils? 
I have been using Pentonsin 5w-30...anyone know how this one stacks up?


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## Deception (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (SofaKing_Uro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SofaKing_Uro* »_This is a new topic to me, what kind of additives to people use in their oils? 

Oil additives in general are a no-no; by additive, the posters above were referring to the additive package _in_ the brand of oil they are using. For example, the 0W-30 Castrol will have an additive package along with its synthetic basestocks.
Are you sure you're using Pentosin 5W-30 and not the 5W-40?


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## SofaKing_Uro (Aug 8, 2007)

you are right Deception, it's Pentosin 5w40...any idea how good this oil is?


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## Deception (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (SofaKing_Uro)*

That is a good oil, and it meets the specs as required by VW for your A3. I would feel comfortable using it, though I would kick down the interval from the recommended 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles for peace of mind. Oil and an oil filter aren't expensive (probably the same as a tankful of gas nowadays) and is cheap insurance.


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (Deception)*

FWIW, here is my non FSI B6 S4 with a 10 quart sump run under 4K miles with german syntec 0w-30.


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## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (Deception)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_I am also fully aware I am not using a VW/Audi approved oil. 



_Quote, originally posted by *Deception* »_
Castrol 0W-30 is approved for 502.00, API SL, etc. on its bottle, and 502.00 is what VW asks for in the owner's manual. If push comes to shove, you can easily show that you have been using an approved oil by showing them the bottle and the manual.

_Modified by Deception at 11:17 AM 2-6-2008_

Who's right here? Are Canada VW specs different than US specs?
I have a Blacksonte Lab kit for the next time I change my oil, but prior to that, I have not had any testing done.
I had the dealer change the oil last, and I believe they use Castrol 0W-40 blend synthetic. 
When I do my own changes, I use an OEM filter with Mobil 1 0W-40. 
Where do you guys get this 0W-30 "Made in Germany" Castrol, assuming it is approved for the 2.0T?
Should be fine in IL climate right? Can be -10 in the winter, 95 in the summer.


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (JosephH1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JosephH1* »_
Exactly, this Syntec was shot within 4,000 miles, and I have seen results for M1 0w40 which were as bad if not worse. It looks like I am going to have to go off of the VW approved list for a uber lube (Amsoil, RLI) for this bruiser of an engine. 

So, that oil analysis is from a Oil not on VW's approved list?
Seems to me this lends some credibility that not all oils are created equal like some people on here like to profess.
Looks like that list is there for a reason.
It will be interesting to see your next analysis after the oil is changed to one on VW's approved list.
Now, to all the other fans that use stuff not on "the list". Most of you are getting regular oil analysis done so, you know if it's working or not. I'm also not saying that the list is the end all be all of oils that can be run successfully in the 2.0 engine.
Unless you're going to be doing regular oil analyses on your oil it's probably best to stick to the list though.
This is certainly good information you've given us here. I appreciate you sharing it. 
Anyways, my .00000000000002 cents USD adjusted for current dollar valuation. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: (g60_corrado_91)*

Below is a Worldwide list of VW approved oils. You need to be sure that the oil container states: "*approved* to VW 502.00 " Bottles that say: "*formulated* to meet or exceed VW spec XYZ" are NOT approved VW 502.00 oils. Most of the oils on the list are Euro formulations, but there are a number of U.S. spec oils that meet VW 502.00 specs. There is probably a (100) oil threads on Vortex about VW spec oils.








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3599947


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## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_Below is a Worldwide list of VW approved oils. You need to be sure that the oil container states: "*approved* to VW 502.00 " Bottles that say: "*formulated* to meet or exceed VW spec XYZ" are NOT approved VW 502.00 oils. Most of the oils on the list are Euro formulations, but there are a number of U.S. spec oils that meet VW 502.00 specs. There is probably a (100) oil threads on Vortex about VW spec oils.








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3599947

Yes, I searched, and I did come up with that link.
I didn't see the 0W-30 formula, must not be approved. We're 502.00 or 502.01? I use Mobil 1 normally 0W-40, and I know it's approved.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

Castrol 5W-40: Approved.
Castrol 0W-30: Not Approved.


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## Tom16v (Apr 7, 2003)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (JosephH1)*

If you guys are really interested in finding out more information about how fuel dilution affects engine wear you should check out the bobistheoilguy forums. There is a guy on there who has an RS4 and has been having his oil analyzed since day one and has consulted with Terry Dyson. It would appear that it is a common side affect of fsi is high fuel dilution that can lead to accelerated wear. The guy with the RS4 has had very good luck with a bio-synthetic based oil that has out-performed every 502 approved oil. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (Tom16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tom16v* »_If you guys are really interested in finding out more information about how fuel dilution affects engine wear you should check out the bobistheoilguy forums. There is a guy on there who has an RS4 and has been having his oil analyzed since day one and has consulted with Terry Dyson. It would appear that it is a common side affect of fsi is high fuel dilution that can lead to accelerated wear. The guy with the RS4 has had very good luck with a bio-synthetic based oil that has out-performed every 502 approved oil. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

May I only suggest that those who do read up on it pay careful attention to the number of miles on the RLI oil during his "testing". No doubt he is right about the fuel dilution. And I applaud his effort to search for a better oil. But he "worked" with Terry Dyson to develop it and has never showed a UOA with more than a few thousand miles on the oil. I'd be more likely to believe in this wonder oil with a UOA after a longer interval. If someone out there wants to buy and and do a UOA, let us know the results! And remember that having a couple of UOAs to show your engines baseline would help evaluate it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tom16v (Apr 7, 2003)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (magilson)*

Maglison you make some very good points http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm have wondered if the high iron is caused the bad batch of intake cams?


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (Tom16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tom16v* »_I'm have wondered if the high iron is caused the bad batch of intake cams?

I think the higher iron levels is too _common_ to be from a problem isolated to a batch of cams. I also don't think the iron level is all that high. In any case I haven't seen enough proof either way that could point it out clearly. It would certainly be a good way to diagnose the problem. Unfortunately almost no one does used oil analysis.


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## CadiGTi (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (raceware)*

Jorge
Do you have a professional opinion on the use of BG MOA oil additive in the FSI 2.0 engine?
My VW dealer uses it at each oil change (5k intervals) on my '07 GTi. I had never used oil additives in the 183k miles I put on my 2003 Acura CL-S and the Acura has never used a drop of oil...I have only used non-synthetic in the Acura...I know it is a very different engine than the VW FSI turbo.
I had tried the BG MOA in my 40k original mile 1979 V8 Cadillac when the car developed an engine knock after sitting for several weeks in storage and this was the only product that cured the Cadi of the knock.
I will put over 40k miles/yr on the GTi and need it to last.
Thanks!
Ed


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## ssaffioti (Apr 9, 2006)

I suspect the intake cam as well; we need to see UOAs from 2008 cars that we *know* by now have the revised camshaft, or from cars which have already had the cam swapped. 
I think the oil is definitely breaking down around 4k-5k miles -- I think I can tell this because my engine burns very little oil in the first 1000 miles. By 3500 miles the oil begins disappearing at a faster rate. My engine consumes probably 1/2 - 2/3 quart between changes, but if I tried to double the oil change interval I bet it would consume more than double the oil.


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## Deception (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_Below is a Worldwide list of VW approved oils. You need to be sure that the oil container states: "*approved* to VW 502.00 " Bottles that say: "*formulated* to meet or exceed VW spec XYZ" are NOT approved VW 502.00 oils. Most of the oils on the list are Euro formulations, but there are a number of U.S. spec oils that meet VW 502.00 specs. There is probably a (100) oil threads on Vortex about VW spec oils.








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3599947

How is the average consumer supposed to know the difference?
If the Castrol 0W-30 bottle reads "meet/exceeds 502.00", and the owner's manual calls for an oil labeled 502.00, the average consumer will put two and two together, and use that oil.
I highly doubt that VW will have a solid basis for denying warranty claims on semantics alone, when the wording in the manual is simple, and the wording on the bottle matches up: 502.00.
Most of the oils on that page are not even available in North America. Oils with 502.00 explicitly labeled on the bottle are relatively rare in North America, too.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

The exact wording on the back of the Castrol Syntec European Formula 0w-30 is...
"Castrol SYNTEC exceeds the world's toughest industry protection standards."
(bunch of others and then) VW 502 00, 505 00, 503 01.
VWOA won't have a very good case denying warranty when someone uses this oil. A case can be made on the part of the consumer who uses this oil stating that they read the bottle and it clearly says EXCEEDS the recommendation, not even just FORMULATED TO MEET, which most consumers will read as a better than average oil. It may not be on the list...but we're talking about a bit of a gray area here.
I guess if you have any concerns about the oil you use you should bring them up with your own dealer and ask. Mine told me flat out it was perfectly ok to use this oil.


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 8:14 AM 2-7-2008_


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: (Deception)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Deception* »_
How is the average consumer supposed to know the difference?
If the Castrol 0W-30 bottle reads "meet/exceeds 502.00", and the owner's manual calls for an oil labeled 502.00, the average consumer will put two and two together, and use that oil.
I highly doubt that VW will have a solid basis for denying warranty claims on semantics alone, when the wording in the manual is simple, and the wording on the bottle matches up: 502.00.
Most of the oils on that page are not even available in North America. Oils with 502.00 explicitly labeled on the bottle are relatively rare in North America, too.


VW publishes a list of approved oils specifically because of the deceptive advertising practices of some oil companies who try to sell their oils as approved when they have never been tested and approved by VW. As indicated in the original post, this is a *WORLDWIDE LIST* of approved oils. *VW also has a short list of approved oils that are readily available in the U.S.*
VW provides this list of approved oils to help consumers use the proper oil not some untested and unapproved oil.


_Modified by raceware at 6:05 AM 2-7-2008_


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Most Dealers are pretty clueless. They constantly tell customers incorrect information. Some of them can't even properly change the oil without over filling. VW publishes the list of approved oils and updates it regularly so Dealers and consumers will know what is approved.
If you read your Owner's Manual it tells you EXACTLY what the oil container must say and that all synthetic oils, etc. do not meet VW requirements, etc.
You can assume anything you chose, but the wording in the manual is quite clear as is the warranty disclaimer that if you fail to follow VW's warranty requirements that they can void your warranty. This has been discussed ad nauseam in countless threads.
*An educated consumer reads the OM.*


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## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (Tom16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tom16v* »_If you guys are really interested in finding out more information about how fuel dilution affects engine wear you should check out the bobistheoilguy forums. There is a guy on there who has an RS4 and has been having his oil analyzed since day one and has consulted with Terry Dyson. It would appear that it is a common side affect of fsi is high fuel dilution that can lead to accelerated wear. The guy with the RS4 has had very good luck with a bio-synthetic based oil that has out-performed every 502 approved oil. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Actually, I have ordered the RLI Biosyn 05w40 for my next oil change. The plan is to run the oil to 5k miles and then take a sample without changing the oil. I will keep running the oil until the UOA results compel me to change it. My goal is to determine if and for how long (miles) the RLI product provides additional protection.


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (CadiGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CadiGTi* »_Jorge
Do you have a professional opinion on the use of BG MOA oil additive in the FSI 2.0 engine?
My VW dealer uses it at each oil change (5k intervals) on my '07 GTi. I had never used oil additives in the 183k miles I put on my 2003 Acura CL-S and the Acura has never used a drop of oil...I have only used non-synthetic in the Acura...I know it is a very different engine than the VW FSI turbo.
I had tried the BG MOA in my 40k original mile 1979 V8 Cadillac when the car developed an engine knock after sitting for several weeks in storage and this was the only product that cured the Cadi of the knock.
I will put over 40k miles/yr on the GTi and need it to last.
Thanks!
Ed


I have no experience with BG MOA.
All I know is VW and all car companies specifically state *NOT* to use oil additives as do most oil suppliers. If you are using a quality approved VW oil for your engine, particularly a full synthetic oil with the correct chemistry to be approved by VW, I highly doubt any other oil additive will provide an improvement over the base oil. In fact there is serious concern by many in the oil/auto industry that adding some unknown chemical to your engine may actually undermine the original oil formulation and negatively impact the base oil's lubrication properties. 
So my professional opinion is the same as VW's. I would *NOT *use engine additives that are not recommended by VW who does extensive testing. VW doesn't guess, they test and they don't buy into ad claims. Unless you scientifically test, neither you nor I or anyone else knows what the outcome is of using an additive.


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## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: (iThread)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iThread* »_
So, that oil analysis is from a Oil not on VW's approved list?
Seems to me this lends some credibility that not all oils are created equal like some people on here like to profess.
Looks like that list is there for a reason.
It will be interesting to see your next analysis after the oil is changed to one on VW's approved list.
Now, to all the other fans that use stuff not on "the list". Most of you are getting regular oil analysis done so, you know if it's working or not. I'm also not saying that the list is the end all be all of oils that can be run successfully in the 2.0 engine.
Unless you're going to be doing regular oil analyses on your oil it's probably best to stick to the list though.
This is certainly good information you've given us here. I appreciate you sharing it. 
Anyways, my .00000000000002 cents USD adjusted for current dollar valuation. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I am glad to share my results. I used Castrol Syntec 05w40 in this UOA, which is definitely on the VW list, which is the single biggest reason I posted this. The results indicate that this approved oil does not protect adequately for the entire recommended 10k OCI. 
I am planning to try the new RLI Biosyn 05w40 next. I will definitely be doing a UOA on the new product too!


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## CadiGTi (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: Used Oil Analysis on my 2.0T GTI , Castrol Syntec 05w40, not great results! (raceware)*

I appreciate your reply and thoughts.
Thank You!


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## AngryScientist (Jan 7, 2008)

i will say this about additives:
i remember in the late 70's through the 80's everyone (not me though) was using slick 50 the like in their engines. sure they seemed to help with compression, which seemed to equate to more power, but when those engines were torn down, most of all the restrictive oil passages were clogged with the "glue" slick 50 was using to increase viscosity.
turns out tose guys would have been better off without the additives.
thats just an old lesson learned i'm sharing. i dont know anything about these newer additives either, but, as raceware said, unless there is some back-up testing done, i would stay away from any additive.
i would also like to add that vw recently prides themselves on long lasting cars. they are going out of their way to find the highest miliage tdi's, and i am sure they would love to hear of some of their newer cars hitting the 300, 400, 500 thousand mile mark. they have done their research and it is in their best interest to inform the consumer to use the best products in their engines. vw wants YOUR car to hit milestone longevity, it will keep you and others coming back to the brand. trust their maintenance recomendations.


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## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: (AngryScientist)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AngryScientist* »_i will say this about additives:
thats just an old lesson learned i'm sharing. i dont know anything about these newer additives either, but, as raceware said, unless there is some back-up testing done, i would stay away from any additive.


Agreed about the additives, I never use them. I am referring to the additive package in the oil itself. 
Still I strongly believe VW is off base with their 10k OCI for the 2.0T. _In my opinion_, the UOA supports this.


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## AngryScientist (Jan 7, 2008)

agreed, despite what i mentioned above, i personally do not go 10K miles between changes.
while i can not scientifically confirm that 10K is too long btwn oil changes for every 2.0T, my uoa's lead me to believe its too long for MY engine, plus, its cheap insurance to change the oil more often, it costs less than $50 and 20 mins of my time, well worth it IMO.


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## CadiGTi (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (AngryScientist)*

Six years ago when I lived in Arizona I had asked my VW dealer about extending the oil change intervals to 10k miles on my 2001 non-turbo Golf if I switched to synthetic oil and their response was that they felt the oil would hold up, but dirty oil filters would be an issue at 10k mile intervals, especially driving in Arizona.....I stayed with the 5k interval.
Also, at the same time my girlfriend was driving Mercedes and Mercedes was paying maintenance back then. They were changing the oil at 15k mile intervals and I could not help but notice one time when I took her MB in for service to see several late model MB cars having their engines pulled. I asked the advisor about my observation and he said they were the result of lubrication issues......Scared me enough to stay away from buying late model high-end used cars and I will never let an oil change interval surpass 5k miles!


_Modified by CadiGTi at 11:36 AM 2-7-2008_


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (JosephH1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JosephH1* »_
I am glad to share my results. I used Castrol Syntec 05w40 in this UOA, which is definitely on the VW list, which is the single biggest reason I posted this. The results indicate that this approved oil does not protect adequately for the entire recommended 10k OCI. 
I am planning to try the new RLI Biosyn 05w40 next. I will definitely be doing a UOA on the new product too! 

I'm glad you clarified that bc it is a good point. Although the list is a good guiding point for oils that at least meet some good quality requirements it does not at all mean these oils perform well to 10K miles at all.
Also important to point out is that the list does have some errors. For example, even on the "us only" list of approved oils the valvoline 5w-30 keeps showing up and this is NOT an approved oil at all. And the castrol syntec made in germany but available in the US DOES meet not only the VW 502 requirements but also the more stringent 503.01 requirements that even their own castrol 5w-40 does not meet.
BTW, as seen on the S4...these 1.5% fuel dilutions are not uncommonly seen on just about any vw/audi car sometimes whether it be FSI or not.
Another note is some one brought up the RI_RS4 oil study performed in the RS4 engines. Just an FYI, although the results seem interesting some one ran a statistical analysis of the results of ALL 11 OILS and NOT ONE OF THEM was statistically significant in difference. 
IMO, limiting the OCI interval to 5K miles is a better protection then trying to figure out what oil on the list to use.
cheers! mike


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (bhvrdr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bhvrdr* »_
I'm glad you clarified that bc it is a good point. Although the list is a good guiding point for oils that at least meet some good quality requirements it does not at all mean these oils perform well to 10K miles at all.
Also important to point out is that the list does have some errors. For example, even on the "us only" list of approved oils the valvoline 5w-30 keeps showing up and this is NOT an approved oil at all. And the castrol syntec made in germany but available in the US DOES meet not only the VW 502 requirements but also the more stringent 503.01 requirements that even their own castrol 5w-40 does not meet.
BTW, as seen on the S4...these 1.5% fuel dilutions are not uncommonly seen on just about any vw/audi car sometimes whether it be FSI or not.
Another note is some one brought up the RI_RS4 oil study performed in the RS4 engines. Just an FYI, although the results seem interesting some one ran a statistical analysis of the results of ALL 11 OILS and NOT ONE OF THEM was statistically significant in difference. 
IMO, limiting the OCI interval to 5K miles is a better protection then trying to figure out what oil on the list to use.
cheers! mike

Church.


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## ssaffioti (Apr 9, 2006)

There is a Valvoline 5w-30 that IS an approved oil; it is called Valvoline Synpower MST 5w-30. It is only available in bulk at the dealerships however (I top off with Castrol 5w-40).


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## KingofCancer (Oct 8, 2005)

so why then would vw state to change the oil at 10k? Yes, they could force unknowing people to have to buy a new car every 5 years but then that makes them look bad in terms of reliability in the long term. thoughts?


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## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (KingofCancer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingofCancer* »_so why then would vw state to change the oil at 10k? Yes, they could force unknowing people to have to buy a new car every 5 years but then that makes them look bad in terms of reliability in the long term. thoughts?

Not really sure. Looks like they need to look into this more.
But it's similar with them saying to have your tires rotated every 10k. Most places say between 4-6k is the time to rotate tires. 10k is excessive.


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (KingofCancer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingofCancer* »_so why then would vw state to change the oil at 10k? Yes, they could force unknowing people to have to buy a new car every 5 years but then that makes them look bad in terms of reliability in the long term. thoughts?

Probably bc most wont have problems in 100K miles. But then again, let's look at VW and Audi's history on service intervals. There was a time they specced 105K miles for the timing belt on A4 cars. The forums saw relatively high amounts of failures and members started an "unofficial" recommendation of only 60K mile intervals. Now, the majority that never had problems balked at this and said it was crazy but low and behold 3 years later Audi sends out a letter saying that indeed there is a problem and there will be an extended warranty for TBelt failures...oh and BTW the new timing belt interval is 75K miles on this same motor.
Same thing with their oil changes. Back in the day we used a non synthetic in the little turbo motors with 3.7 quart sumps and no one complained about sludge. Then in 2002 Audi comes out with "free maintenance" and extends the interval to 10K miles and what happens? Sludge bulletin in 2004, extended warranties for oil sludge, and the famed "vw502" oil requirement. What else happens? Audi had claimed a 10K mile initial oil change interval for 3 years but suddenly now states the initial change must be done at 5K miles (which is currently specs).
IMO, it is not always prudent to follow some of their intervals if interested in keeping the car into the 150K miles.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

My american muscle friends swear by lucas as an additive. I personally wouldn't use it but what about for an older car with high mileage?


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## ssaffioti (Apr 9, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

My family has used Lucas oil in the past. It is great for a low-tech, simple engine with a lot of miles on it because it really does cling to metal... We had two work trucks with high mileage that eventually developed some light knocking in the engine and the Lucas oil silenced it completely. These were GM 4.3L V6 (pushrod) engines. (High mileage - 200k and 360k miles!)
I don't think Lucas would be a good choice for our engines because it does thicken the oil and there is a lot more stuff to lubricate in the top end of a DOHC engine. I also don't know how it might affect the oil controled variable valve timing mechanism, or how it would withstand the heat from the turbo.


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

i use Agip 0-40 syntheitc in my car and change oil every 3.5k, how can i get one of these tests done


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_i use Agip 0-40 syntheitc in my car and change oil every 3.5k, how can i get one of these tests done

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (ssaffioti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ssaffioti* »_My family has used Lucas oil in the past. It is great for a low-tech, simple engine with a lot of miles on it because it really does cling to metal... We had two work trucks with high mileage that eventually developed some light knocking in the engine and the Lucas oil silenced it completely. These were GM 4.3L V6 (pushrod) engines. (High mileage - 200k and 360k miles!)
I don't think Lucas would be a good choice for our engines because it does thicken the oil and there is a lot more stuff to lubricate in the top end of a DOHC engine. I also don't know how it might affect the oil controled variable valve timing mechanism, or how it would withstand the heat from the turbo. 

Right, that's what I meant...I wouldn't use it for our cars, but my girls SE-R is getting up there in mileage and was hoping it might help keep her running.


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html

thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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