# N/A power



## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Ok so i kno there has been a few post asking how much ppl have squeezed out of an N/A 2.5. But since there has been work being done on new intakes mani's and what not i figured its time for an updated post. So lets see what we got using plain old gasoline 89-93 none of this 100 oct or meth sprays and all that..


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## Scratchmaster_J (Jan 18, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (bunnyhopin)*

Im interested to know what is out there, nothing says reliability like N/A.


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## Outie5000 (Aug 8, 2007)

you wont see much until you see cams.


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (Outie5000)*

ive heard of work on some cams .. cant recall from ware .. im interested in a new intake mani with proper tuning to let my baby breath....


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

To be honest, I am N/A guy. Always have been. And since I got my Rabbit two years ago and came here 23 months ago, I wanted to be the first with a built N/A 2.5. Even now I have doubts about going turbo but then I think about what I want out of my car. I could dump 10 grand into this motor and for what? 225whp maybe 250wtq with everything maxxed out: built bottom end with high comp pistons, bored out cylinders, headwork, oversized valves, new valvetrain, crazy N/A ECU tuning, waiting for cams and intake manifolds, exhaust and intake blah blah so on and so forth. But I wouldnt be satisfied. After I had completed all that super expensive, labor intensive work to achieve C2 turbo stage 1 dyno numbers, what would I do? Well then I'd just get a turbo because I wouldnt be satisfied for long with my achievement. So even if I did go build an all-out N/A for ten grand, I'd still get a turbo anyway.
Its just so much easier and cheaper to get a turbo. Figure this, 225whp 250wtq for 10 grand OR just get a damn C2 turbo stage 1 for <4grand and get the same numbers and install it in one day rather than with months of painstaking N/A build-up.
I'm not against an N/A build, like I said I've always been an N/A guy and for a long time I admit I despised the thought of getting boosted but then I think its just not worth it cost and laborwise to go the N/A route. Why waste all that time and money when you can just go stage 1 and be done in one day? And later just get a typical stage 2 and destroy a fully-built N/A 2.5? I'm sorry, I have to go against my former allegiences and just get the damn turbo b/c to me 225whp isnt worth 10 grand. Basically I'm paying 18K for the car and another 10K in upgrades. So thats 28K for 225whp. I couldve just gotten a GTI and ECU tuning and intake and exhaust for that and push 300whp for that price. My 0.02....


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (_V-Dubber_)*

well said .. lets see how it plays out... 


_Modified by bunnyhopin at 6:14 PM 12-25-2008_


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

V Dubber Don't self yourself and thought so short, before you decide on build you have to know what you want in the long run.
Alot of N/A power can be had out of smaller engines but you sacrifice everyday driveability.
People get strayed away from N/A builds in the euro market because it lacks choices compared to whats available to other imports and domestic cars. In the Euro Market everything is extremely over priced for the gains you get. 400 dollars for a software flash to give you alittle more throttle response and 5hp 10lbs of torque is garbage. If they sold software with matched hardware gains would be much more and cost would be justified. Software and cams, Intake manifold and software, A performance rebuild kit with matched software, or some other examples you guys can think of. Then paying someone else thousands in labor to enjoy a car you almost had no apart of besides purchasing it and telling a tuner what you want. Good for business but not a real enthusiast.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (daemontrym)*

I would love to see a full N/A build and part of me still wants to do just that. But like you said in the long run, I have to know what I want with this car and what my goals are in the long run. That being said, if I spent 10 grand upgrading the N/A motor and lets just say a Mustang GT pulls up next to me at a stop light and blows my doors off, I'd be so pissed. I would feel a real sense of accomplishment being the first to have a fully-built N/A 2.5 on Vortex but that would soon wear off when I realize I couldve just bought a used 350z for the 28K I've spent on the car + upgrades and kill what I had created.
The cheapest, easiest, and most cost effective way to go fast is to go turbo. You probably spent somewhere around 18K on your Rabbit right? Base price is close to 16K, an option or two (most are bare-boned), tax, tag, title and boom 18K. Then you spend 10 grand on upgrades. So 28K for ~225whp 250wtq. When I couldve bought my 18K Rabbit plus a $4K C2 stage 1 and gotten 225whp 250wtq and had so much more room to grow and make more power (stage 2 for example) whereas my N/A tuning would've reached a wall.
I'm sure a fully-built N/A 2.5 would sound amazing screaming down the highway at high rpms but with the economy so bad, no one wants to just throw their money away. Not to say building an N/A 2.5 is a waste of money, I would love to see one. But I'm looking for the most bang out of my buck and that means going turbo. I spend a little over $4K for stage 2 and boom I'm making ~250whp with JUST the kit (and maybe an exhaust). I have to accept we have a small motor that was designed with economy and emissions in mind. The only way I'm gonna make big power out of a small engine is to boost it.
But anyways, I will say something constructive. On the exhaust side, best bet is the Evoair header and a 2.5" exhaust. Too much larger on the exhaust and you're losing too much bottom end, trust me. If you want to go catless, make sure you have an ECU reflash as well. This way your company can write you custom software to keep your engine running on Open Loop A/F ratio. You have two oxygen sensors in your exhaust. One before and after the cat. If they read the same, the ECU will sense a problem and throw a CEL. Mine did. It's seeing EGTs are the same and oxygen levels are the same and scratching its head. EGTs should go up post-cat and its also measuring the amt of oxygen as well. During closed loop operation, if it senses too much oxygen it means not enough fuel is available and adds more. If theres not enough oxygen it means theres too much fuel and trims it back. If you delete the cat you throw off these readings. During Open Loop operation, which for us only occurs at WOT, the ECU ignores its sensors and follows predetermined A/F ratios and does not add/subtract fuel based on exhaust readings. It just matches fuel delivery to the MAF signal. Lets band together and tell all four 2.5 software tuners we want to be tuned for Open Loop fuel operation which I dont think has happened yet. I need it bad because I think I'm running lean. I wish I had vag-com or knew someone in my local area that did. The nearest person I know is over 40 miles away. But we should petition to have new N/A software written for our cars and call it a "race only" tune *wink* *wink*. That is how you are gonna make N/A power, by perfecting your fuel delivery. Oh and cams


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (_V-Dubber_)*

Interesting


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

We are not the market they cater to because we are the budget buy for now. I feel out engine will gain insight like the vr6 engine did against the 1.8T.
1. Wiseco makes pistons for everything known to man at decent prices if you know exaclty what your looking for.
2. Audi4u has a set of rods and pistons that are forged at a decent price
3. You can up the compression some buy getting the head and block decked. This is where the clean up the block mating surface and machine so much off the bottom of the head to bump up compression. But that depends deeply on stock valve clearance or if your changing pistons and if they are flat top, domed, or shaped to the valves with close tolerance.
4. A intake manifold should be made with short runners and a large volume plenum for those who want mid range to high end peak power. 
5. A intake manifold with long runners and large plenum would create more midrange and torque. Equations can be looked up on the internet on how much air it needs to flow by displacement to make good power.
6. Matched cams to the intake would definitely help and I don't know much about this department for VW's.
7. You don't need to put over sized valves in an engine that already has 4 valves per cylinder. Cams will create a bigger gain then that. But, you could get a valve job to angle them alittle differently.
8. At the end of all that its pure dyno time with a stand a lone and just to hope for the best.
9. With a little flexing of the intellectual biceps and becoming friends with an automotive machine shop you won't get nearly as ripped off as you would from Alot of these euro tuners.

I have a project for myself that I want to do just to turn the cheek and be alittle different. I want to use an Eaton M62 or M90 on a custom intake manifold modeled after the Chevy LSJ engine found in the cobalt SS. These superchargers are very cheap to buy and to rebuild, plus the after market is HUGE with them. I have had experience with the superchargers with grand prix GTP 3800 Series I and II engines swapped into fieros. 
The only main obstacle is going to be the intake manifold. Everything else is easier just tedious.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (daemontrym)*

Dude, awesome post. Secondly, there are quite a few people here that have been wishing for a supercharger since before there were turbos available for our engine. None of this panned out of course. If you could make it work, it would inspire others to try and build their own or you could post a delicious DIY. The way I understand it, a supercharger is ran off the crankshaft pulley, correct? So your blower pulley will be on the passenger side and you'd have a long ass belt running all the way down to the crank but I have to say I'm worried about clearance issues. Have you noticed there is like zero space? Are you planning on doing to some cutting & rerouting of engine components and structural elements?


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

FYI: There a supercharger kit for a certain honda civic that mounts the charger by the transmission and drives it via a driveshaft from the belts.
























Something like that coupled with custom manifold should be fun


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (Audi4u)*

http://paceperformance.com/Pro...6.gif
http://www.speedmafia.com/imag...9.jpg
First picture is the LSJ cobalt SS engine with Eaton M62 hooked to it. The second one is a stock 2.2L Ecotec to show how recessed the intake is and how I would like to make mine. I would make 5 individual runners leading to the flange with a supercharger mounted similar to the top and a bulbed plenum on the bottom of the intake for some volume similar to how you see on the LSJ. 
I will probably get rid of the DBW and put in a pedal with a custom cut throttle cable to a throttle body that fits the supercharger. This 3800 one is similar to the size of ours so it wouldn't hinder anything and it would make mounting easier. 
Hopefully by the time I have enough money for this build, I move to Az, and the economy doesn't suck they have better stand alone options. 034 makes great products but at cost and unfortunately unlike a lot of us on the forum I am not made of money as I just got out of the Army and am finishing my degree i started while I was in.
Fortunately for us I am going for electrical engineering and have a strong electronic backround due to my job in the Army. I would like to build my own setup after a lot of research and make it easily tunable like the PowerCommander piggy backs for FI bikes. For those of you who don't have experience with them you can change fuel values for every part of the rev range and get custom maps made for just about every mod you have to the bike. Plus the software is very easy to use and pretty dummy proof. Just adding features to it would be nice like sensor values, logging capability, and all the greats that a regular stand a lone would have.


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (daemontrym)*

Im lovin this info... Charger would be tremendous http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ~kInG~ (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

but wasn't this a N/A thread!!!


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (~kInG~)*

N/A people have made 10 second Honda Civics out of the older SOHC engines and crazy setups.
I am sure good power can be made out of our engine with careful building but it wouldn't be streetable. The engine will most likely be running on race gas.
This process would be stroking, higher compression pistons with an optimized shape, blueprinting and balancing the motor, massive head work, custom intake manifold, Custom equal length header, bigger throttle body, optimized cams one off for the entire setup, software to match all the mods, very good ignition system, light weight fly wheel, and valve springs so that thing could rev damn near like a motorcycle.

I am just an Army vet Finishing his electrical engineering degree, I am not mr money bags. I wouldn't be able to afford such a feat, thats the sway from N/A sorry King


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## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: (~kInG~)*


_Quote, originally posted by *~kInG~* »_but wasn't this a N/A thread!!!









Yes it is. Enough FI







I am planning to keep mine NA until a s/c comes out. The turbo kits don't seem worth it to me. 
So what is the most NA whp you can get? I heard someone has a 2.5 w/ almost the same whp as a stock 2.0T.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: N/A power (bunnyhopin)*

i think it is actually better to strip a ton of weight from the car if you want to stay n/a.... lightweight wheels, lighter suspension, removal of some sound deadening, spare removal, battery relocation, lightweight seats and brackets, smaller h/u (or removal), rear seat removal, delete the spare wheel well, carbon hood & fenders, use a single muffler, smaller washer fluid res, and i could think of a lot more.
combined with a LSD, intake, cams, and an upgraded clutch/flywheel and a chip tune 
i think it would be a pretty quick car, comfortable daily (if you keep power steering and a/c) that is about as noisy as an RSX.
it's not all about the figures its power to weight ratio and how efficiently the power gets to the wheels.

2dr rabbit weighs 3,072... i don't think it would be too difficult to get it down to 2500 (maybe lower), the seats are super heavy. 
also the 9:5:1 compression ratio is pretty low. if you bumped it up with higher comp pistons and had some springs and retainers in addition to the afore mentioned... i believe that you would have a truly quick car that is also reliable. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: N/A power (BluMagic)*

Thats a nice post Blu
Depending on your goals with power if pistons are hard to come buy or need to be custom you can up compression by other means.
Depending on piston shape, valve clearance, and how the head is designed you can do whats called decking.
Think of it as the opposite of the head spacers out there. It bumps compression up a bit but not to the level on where you would need race gas. I have seen people do it with fiero engines with good results and reliability. Since it is an inline engine it would be alot cheaper and you don't need to do the intake manifold either.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (BluMagic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BluMagic* »_2dr rabbit weighs 3,072 

Owner's manual lists 2door automatic curb weight @ 2826lbs.

_Quote, originally posted by *BluMagic* »_*i think it is actually better to strip a ton of weight from the car if you want to stay n/a*

You mean like this? lol


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: N/A power (_V-Dubber_)*

i just listed it off VW.com's specs for '08..... 
i was being conservative that is super-gutted LOL... you keeping it that way or are you doing dynamat? i ask cause you left the rear wiper and motor i







seems like a strange luxury to keep after taking all that out if for weight saving


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (BluMagic)*

I would love to get carbon fibre "look" door skins or door inserts. I'm gonna put everything back together after I get my turbo this spring. As for now, car needs to be superlight if its making <200whp


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## 4door1.8T (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (_V-Dubber_)*

Have you weighed your car V-dubber to see exactly how much you have dropped?


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: N/A power (_V-Dubber_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_V-Dubber_* »_I would love to get carbon fibre "look" door skins or door inserts. I'm gonna put everything back together after I get my turbo this spring. As for now, car needs to be superlight if its making <200whp

it must haul a$$ pretty good though; with all that out. 

you keeping power steering? honestly my first car came w/out and it's not bad at all. you should just have the door skins done in fiberglass then cover them in suede or something. it would be dope. if i had a 2 cars, one of them would def be stripped of all sound buffering http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (BluMagic)*

As for the N/A comment .. Yes this is a N/A thread BUT there has not been much talk about a sc on this site so why not mix it up a bit ... Plus i would love to hear a charger screaming under my hood







... Who wouldn't..


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (_V-Dubber_)*

Take a torch to those reinforcements.. Cut those bad boys out and youll save 500 LBS easy










_Modified by bunnyhopin at 5:16 PM 12-29-2008_


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

You forgot the speakers.. Hell, you forgot the dash!








Nice work. Brave man.


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## crxtrixxx (May 4, 2007)

bulletproof blocks or sleeves with nitrous and very high compresion with some really good cams and some machine shop love with a killer tune and your puttin out some big numbers... n/a power is different then turbo feels different i had 10 second turbo crx fully built and it was fast as **** on the street from a dead stop the power from a naturally asporated motor will give you whiplash turbo is a steady(but fast) acceleration but lacks that kick from the launch i love turbo but all motor sounds sick


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (crxtrixxx)*

werd


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## Lower it!! (Aug 1, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

2.5L forum is like reading a book in every thread. Too many wordy posts, show me pics/dyno runs!!!


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## the_humeister (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: (Lower it!!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lower it!!* »_2.5L forum is like reading a book in every thread. Too many wordy posts, show me pics/dyno runs!!!

Yes, turn it into a kid's book... Back in my day we didn't have all these new fangled "pictures" and "graphs" and we liked it!


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## 4door1.8T (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: (the_humeister)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_humeister* »_
Yes, turn it into a kid's book... Back in my day we didn't have all these new fangled "pictures" and "graphs" and we liked it!

And we had to walk 20 miles in the snow up hill just to get to the speed shop! but seriously... We need these book like threads to get ideas going before we can build the cars that will in turn run the dynos that will be posted on the OMG this is what my car did post!


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: N/A power (4door1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *4door1.8T* »_Have you weighed your car V-dubber to see exactly how much you have dropped?

Not yet but I want to. At the county dump, people who want to throw away large lawn waste have to pay based on the weight of the load they are hauling. On the way in they have to stop @ the weigh station and take a baseline reading of the entire vehicle. After they dump, they must return to the weigh station and get reweighed. They are charged based on the difference in the two weights. I figure if I slip the dude a twenty and ask nicely, he can tell me the weight of my vehicle lol

_Quote, originally posted by *BluMagic* »_it must haul a$$ pretty good though; with all that out. 

It isnt fast, but its quick. I mean come on, its still a Rabbit dude. Thats where my upcoming turbo comes in! lol Did I also mention, its loud as [email protected]@K!!!!


_Quote, originally posted by *david8814* »_You forgot the speakers.. Hell, you forgot the dash!

The front speakers are held in place with rivets. I would have to drill those out if I truly wanted them gone. And for what? A combined weight savings of an extra pound. And what if I wanna put my interior back together after I get my turbo?

_Quote, originally posted by *Lower it!!* »_2.5L forum is like reading a book in every thread. Too many wordy posts, show me pics/dyno runs!!!

I'm trying!
And thank you those of you also contributing your technical know-how crxtrixxx and daemontrym


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (4door1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *4door1.8T* »_
And we had to walk 20 miles in the snow up hill just to get to the speed shop!

lol Bill Cosby! And we had to kill a bear with our loose leaf notebooks!


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## 4door1.8T (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: (_V-Dubber_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_V-Dubber_* »_
lol Bill Cosby! And we had to kill a bear with our loose leaf notebooks!


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## Lower it!! (Aug 1, 2007)

*Re: (4door1.8T)*

You guys have fun. I'm going to go read Cat in a Hat. Or shall I say look at pics.


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## ~kInG~ (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: (Lower it!!)*

pictars!!!
this would help N/A power gains...


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## Lloyd Plumtree (Aug 13, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Oh yes it will!


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Lloyd Plumtree)*

thats perty


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (bunnyhopin)*

just got the Uni Stage 1+ chip courtesy of Force Fed Engineering cant wait till the roads dry


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## triple5soul (Nov 30, 2006)

im waiting to see some cams for these 2.5's

once i see them making over 200 N/A it will be a candidate for my next car


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## easy cheese (Aug 3, 2008)

*Re: (triple5soul)*


_Quote, originally posted by *triple5soul* »_im waiting to see some cams for these 2.5's

once i see them making over 200 N/A it will be a candidate for my next car

dude we are almost there with out cams..USP dyno one with just intake(short ram) and there test pipe made like 157 at the wheels so you add softwear,header,exhust,drive pully,you should be *almost* at 200 at the wheels.


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## sagerabbit (Aug 14, 2007)

yeah, they should just add right up.


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## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: (triple5soul)*


_Quote, originally posted by *triple5soul* »_im waiting to see some cams for these 2.5's

once i see them making over 200 N/A it will be a candidate for my next car

I think it will be possible one day. I've heard someone is close, but I haven't actually seen the dyno.


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## a7xogg (Nov 25, 2008)

*Re: (2ohgti)*

It will happen soon, but not soon enough.


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## crxtrixxx (May 4, 2007)

info on paartsnay lol


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