# Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine



## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

OK. I have a '88 Jetta GT, which, for an European model means the engine is GU, a 1.8 8V with 2E2 carburettor. The carb has been giving me a lot of trouble, and as I have two donor engines ready, I have decided to fit CIS injection to it.
I have one GX engine (85 hp) and a RD engine (107 hp) for parts.
Both are '86 and came off US-sold cars.
I have RD electrics, and control boxes and all injection parts for both engines.
Now, the RD and its electrics came off a '86 Jetta GLI. This is a fact.
The car had been driven with the setup it had for some time.
*THERE WAS NO LAMBDA SENSOR*
Now, I understand this injection system should be a CIS-E, or in other words a KE-Jetronic. There was a knock sensor, and there are two throttle postition sensors, both above and below the TB.
There are two control boxes in addition to the ignition module.
The fuel distributor has two electric connectors, one on either side.
How can the car have been run without a lambda sensor?
Is it possible that this CIS system doesn't use one at all?
The exhaust system in this car looked several years old, and not even a lambda bung anywhere. 
How should I hook up this system? Is there a wiring diagram and what should I do with the lambda issue?
How would a CIS-E run without the lambda sond?
Any help is greatly appreciated, athough I'm afraid I will have to ask many questions more before the swap is complete.



_Modified by TurboJ at 9:55 AM 4-4-2010_


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

that RD should have the same inj setup as my 85 gti. they will run without an 02 sensor. not correctly, but they will run. my bet is someone put a exhaust system on it from something else. is there a green wire on the firewall behind the engine? thats where the o2 is supposed to go. and usually us spec cars have emissions equipment, meaning cats and o2 sensors. 
it will run in open loop mode with no o2 sensor hooked up. those other boxes are:
1.) ECU
2.) ICM
3.) o2 (lambda) controller *if i remember right*
my car had an o2 sensor that didnt work when i bought it. it was basically a plug with a ground wire coming off it. so no o2 sensor probably would have been better. just remember that you need the correct wiring, and the correct fuse panel. i dont think you can plug CE1 wiring into a CE2 fuse panel. you also need the entire fuel system. pump and lines are the most important.
lol, dont you love it when the diesel crew from VWdiesel.net comes to the vortex just to answer each others questions, lol...
need any other help or pics of how things are supposed to be, just let me know.
*another thing you could do, since its already carb equipped, is bolt a 32/36 progressive carb onto the manifold thats already there. that would be way easier than doing a CIS swap. weber progressive carbs are so easy to setup and tune.*


_Modified by Glegor at 10:48 AM 4-4-2010_


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## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (Glegor)*

Thanks for the quick reply!
Funny, so you're a Vwdiesel guy too? If you've seen my 1.6 TD project, now you know what's holding it back








I did think about a replacement carb, but I really don't like carbs besides now that I have two CIS engines tp play with, I won't mind the extra 20 horsepower either!
I can't really tell which wire goes where since the wiring of the '86 US GLI is now a one big heap of wires up in the attic... I am confident however, that with Bentley and a certain friend I can sort out the wires.
Both cars are CE I, so that makes things a whole lot easier. I thought I'd retain the '88 GT's wires and fuse box, and just connect the necessery wires, using the RD wire loom for the engine.
I also have all the injection components, the two pumps, accumulator, regulator, lines etc.
BUT, some more questions still:

1. What are the possible number codes for the fuel pump relay?
2. Is there any reason why I can't combine the two sets of electrics?
( use the engine wiring loom, and only connect the necessery plus feeds to the ignition switch and connect the fuel pump relay) Trouble is I have no idea if the RD fuse box is in working condition, or whether or not it will work with my European dash and gauges.
3. There are three fuel lines going under the car in the RD Jetta, what is the third one? One feed, one return, one xx?
4. This is a tough one, but I'm sure someone will be able to reply...
What are all the electric connectors involved with the CIS system, or both the CIS and ignition of course (all that's different from the carb system)
- Fuel control box
- Knock box
- Ignition module
- CIS distributor connectors 1 and 2 (what do these do??)
- Throttle position sensor
- Oil pressure sensors 1 and 2
- Water temperature sensors 1, 2 and 3 (what do these do?)
- Knock sensor
- Lambda sensor
- Hall sensor (at the ign. distributor, right?)
- Idle valve
- Cold start injector
- Ignition coil ( four wires going to it, why?)
...are there any more?
5. My CE I '88 Jetta has a MFA from the factory (a part of the European GT package, although it's a carb engine). What do I need to make the MFA work with the CIS conversion too? In other words, what sensors does the MFA need to function?
6. I have a 4-2-1 tube header on the GT, that I wish top use with the CIS head too. Where should I weld on the bung for the lambda sensor? Is it a problem if the sensor is only reading 1 cylinder? Or, is it more of a problem if the sensor sits further away, after the final collector and would likely be pretty cold at most times? Also, is there any benefit / problem if I fit a heated lambda sensor?
Many thanks for all the help!
...and everyone is encouraged to participate here of course...!


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

good luck, this sounds complicated. if you have the full harness, why not do a full swap? also, what compression is your stock engine? it might be worth your while to swap the RD in (high comp).
If the mixture was set correctly, you could get away with no lambda sensor.
- Fuel control box -- driver's side in the rain tray
- Knock box -- pass side in rain tray
- Ignition module -- on top of fuel control box
- CIS distributor connectors 1 and 2 -- one is for the dpr to control fueling, one is a position sensor to help with cold running i believe
- Throttle position sensor -- actually should be an idle switch and a wot switch
- Oil pressure sensors 1 and 2 -- low and high pressure
- Water temperature sensors 1, 2 and 3 -- gauge temp, cts for ecu, and thermotime switch for cold starting
- Knock sensor
- Lambda sensor
- Hall sensor (at the ign. distributor, right?) yep
- Idle valve
- Cold start injector
- Ignition coil ( four wires going to it, why?)


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## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (ziddey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ziddey* »_
- Water temperature sensors 1, 2 and 3 -- gauge temp, cts for ecu, and thermotime switch for cold starting


They are all three on the front flange, facing forward from the cyl. head, right? The biggest (tallest, thickest probe) is the thermotime sensor, right?
How do I identify the other two?
What's the vacuum connector on the knock box and where should that be connected to?
Also, the ignition coil has four wires going to it, what are their functions?
I notice that the carb engine has these too. One is for rev counter, probably?
AND BTW, how is the ignition advance regulated on these engines since there is no vacuum capsule on the distributor?
Sorry about noobish questions, but my knowledge is 95% for the diesel engies as far as VAG stuff goes










_Modified by TurboJ at 9:59 AM 4-5-2010_


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

Try this site for the wiring, but you sound like you already have the Bentley manual, that has good wiring diagrams. The wiring part is simple and you can keep all that you already have if you can do some easy cut-splice work, it can even look factory if you use care and get the correct wiring connectors.
http://www.volkswagen.msk.ru/
As for the list of questions:
1.) The US model you have the engine from used the relay 191 906 383C. Other relays can be used, but to wire it correctly that's the one you will want/use.
2.) No reason you can not do what you say. The gauges don't care if it is European or US, only things that measure miles/kilometers make any difference.
3.) Feed, return and vent from the tank to the charcoal canister.
4.) Off the top of my head I'd say you have them all listed. Can't see the prior responses right now so I'll cover the multi-connector/wire questions (4 of them) and if they were already covered, sorry.
~ Fuel mixture unit two connectors: one is for the pressure valve (diferential pressure regulator) and one is for the air sensor potentiometer.
~ Oil pressure sensors: high and low.
~ Hall sneder is at the ignition distributor, correct.
~ Ignition coil, 4 wires: That depends, often power to the coil will also branch off to aome other item using ignition power, same for the negative side. Wire color would help and looking in the wiring diagram too.
5.) MFA will need no other connections. The engine vacuum is already there as is the oil temperature sender. That is all the engine has and the rest is vehicle mounted parts, outside temperature sender, electric power, vehicle speed (hall sender) . . .
6.) Yes, a heated sensor would be best and the RD came with a heated one mounted on the CAT front side. One exhaust primary tube will be the last resort but would be better than nothing. Right where all four primary tubes come together is best and that is why the heated one is required (temperature like you said).
Did many swaps like you are doing and I'm in Europe which might help a little also. So if you need any parts, I play only on the 111 engines now, I have some sitting around just gathering dust, or detailed help, just ask.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

yea, im Rabbit on Roids from vwdiesel.net. its so funny how us diesel guys are SOO LOST when we work on VW gassers. when i got my first cis car, i wasnt too worried about it, then the first time i worked on it, i knew it was nothing EVEN CLOSE to our diesels. 
i didnt know crap about CIS when i got my GTI. i still dont know THAT much about it, but i know enough that i diagnosed most of my problems and corrected them. they are definitely pretty easy to figure out tho. 
so, you are going to have to basically learn the CIS system. and let me tell you what, our diesels really shine when you have to work on these god damn gasser engines.
and as someone stated, you can make it run without a o2 sensor, but why go through all that effort to still have a car that doesnt run 100% right? that type of CIS runs alot better if it has a properly working o2 sensor. and how hard is it to drill a hole in your exhaust, weld a bung on it, and install a sensor and run one wire?
another thing about that engine in your car, it very well may be a lower comp engine. the RD is a 10:1 engine. its way easier to get to alot of the wiring with the engine out of the way. when you can stand where the engine used to be, you can get to lots more things. 
europe is so weird, CE1 in an 88. with a carb! we got carbs till like 82, then no more. and only got CIS until 87, and until 94 on 16v passats. anything after 87 that wasnt a GTI, GLI, or passat had digifart injection (CE2) on this side of the pond atleast.
if you want a project, the CIS swap is what your after, if you want to drive the car, and have a few more horsepower, swap a progressive weber on it. and i dont think the 20 horsepower gain is from the CIS alone, i bet the engine in your car right now is a 9:1 or lower engine. while the GTI engines have 10:1 comp. the stock carbs on those things are small, and have WAY TOO MANY vacuum lines. weber progressives only have one vac line, and thats to control the vac adv on the dizzy. i have gained power from every rig i have ever swapped a weber onto, besides a 22r toyota engine, they like good running stock carbs better.
if you use your current engine, and retrofit CIS, you will need to swap out the ENTIRE ignition system, besides the actual coil. the CIS dizzy has no vac. adv. can on the side of it. there is an ignition control module in the rain tray on most cars, thats what controls the advance. and retards the timing if the knock sensor says the engine is pinging. the vac nipple on that just hooks up to engine vacuum i think. same with the MFA in the cluster. there is a box somewhere that controls it, and it should have a vacuum line coming off it too. also needs manifold vacuum.
yes, one of the wires off the negative side of the coil goes to the tach (rev counter)
i think the big temp sender on top is the one the thermo time, the one on the bottom is for the ECU, and the small one on top is for the gauges. if i remember right that is.
and if wanted, i would add a heated o2 sensor in the header at the collector for all 4 cyls. i feel like reading one cylinder is an incomplete reading. and if you have a heated o2 sensor, it doesnt matter how far away from the engine it is. my 85 gti came with the 02 sensor down by the cat. but its heated also.


_Modified by Glegor at 10:29 AM 4-5-2010_


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## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (Glegor)*

Thanks guys! That's really helpful! Great that the info is there, I was already thinking I have to learn it all the hard way








I think I should clarify a few things about my engine and what I'm about to do to it.
The current engine in the '88 GT is motor code GU, and that's a 90-hp 1.8 carb engine. 2E2 carb, no catalyst, high-compression bottom end ( 10:1 ), carb head with Q cam (milder than the GTI G cam) and 38 mm inlet valves.
The block, crank, rods, pistons are the same as in the 107-hp and 112-hp CIS engines. The head is the only difference.
The engine in my GT is in perfect condition, while the RD would need new int. shaft bearings, and probably honing the cylinder walls too. 
I will take the current engine out and inspect it, but my idea is to put the RD head on the GU bottom end, and use the RD electrics, control boxes, ignition and injection. That should lead to a GTI-matching engine that has zero oil consumption.
One question though. I have a low-mileage GX engine too.
Kolbenschmidt catalog says the GX is also a high-compressiojn engine (10:1). Is this true? Then the only difference to the RD would be the lack of a knock sensor and the head, with milder cam and smaller inlet valves.
Now. The RD head looks just fine and seems to have new valve seals, but one chamber was quite oily when I opened the engine up. The inlet valve in particular. One or two of the head bolts were a bit loose though.
But the head gasket had not leaked. Any guesses about this, and whether it's really a problem...?
BTW, Would the engine work OK with the GX head (small valves) but the G cam? ( G cam = GTI cam, as in the RD)
Again, thanks a bunch, guys! It's great to have help around!


_Modified by TurboJ at 11:58 AM 4-5-2010_


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

US spec GX engines are 8.5:1 comp. great for boost, not for making n/a power. GX engines came in the econo-box cars.
just do like you said, swap a good CIS head on the engine you already have if its already 10:1 comp.
why would you want to use the head with smaller valves when you have at least one big valve head? they use 40mm intakes and 32 or 34mm exhausts. why not add a nice aftermarket cam to this beast when your done converting it? make it come alive a little better..
it will run fine with the GX head, but it will not have as much power, period. it will never be like a normal head with 40mm intakes.


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## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (Glegor)*

It's just that I'm suspecting the RD head may have a worn valve guide, and it would take too much time to repair it right now; was thinking I'd use the GX head temporarily if the RD head needs work. And yeah, a sports cam will be on my shopping list, or perhaps even a small turbocharger come to that. I already have a turbo exhaust manifold and enough tubes etc, but I really should stop even thinking about that right now!!
Right now I'm just worried about the oily chamber on cyl. #3.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

if you are gonna turbo it, throw the entire GX engine in there. it will be great for mild boost because they are already low comp engines.
as for the RD head, i would run it. see if it burns oil. if it does, you know it needs a guide. if it dont burn oil, then bonus.


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## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (Glegor)*

3.) Feed, return and vent from the tank to the charcoal canister.

Do all CIS-equipped cars have that charcoal canister, or is it only on US spec cars? So it's just for ventilating the gas tank?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

Would have to check to see but it very well may be a US thing. They became big on vapour entrapment long before Europe did and the tank was not vented to the open air. The tube vents the tank into the charcoal canister and then the engine draws in the fuel vapour based on an electronically switched valve.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (WaterWheels)*

you can delete any charcoal filters. you can vent the tank to the atmosphere.


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## TurboJ (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (Glegor)*

Does the lambda sensor have to be a specific type, or will any 3-wire sensor with heating do?
Also, the lambda sensor wire has two "layers", the thick green wire has a copper core and on top of that a green insulating layer, covered by another layer of copper, and then the green cover on top. Is this the 'lambda shield'? Still the connector in the end has just one pin.
Do I need to connect the 'shield' somewhere, or what?


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with installing CIS to an 8V engine (TurboJ)*

im pretty sure that o2 sensors are pretty universal. i have a ford NTK sensor in my 85 GTI. same system as what your going to be using. yes, the green wire is for the o2 sensor. just one plug in on the green wire. then there should be another connector there close somewhere for the o2 sensor heater. any 3 or 4 wire o2 sensor will work the 4th wire on a 4 wire sensor is just a sensor ground is all. 
black - signal
2 whites - sensor, wires can be swapped around, just need a pos and neg.
grey - sensor ground
3 wire sensors just have 2 whites and a black.
i like the NTK sensors because they are small, and quick responding.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

There are some differences between some of the sensors out there, but the one you want is pretty much the common kind sold. Just be careful it is not a "resistance" type as that would not work at all. The opening for the exhaust gasses is also different on many, slits vs. holes, but should not make any difference. Thread sizes should all be the same except for some which you would not be looking at anyway.
The shield of the green wire is grounded in the harness at the ECU end. Pin 7 or 8, one is the shield location and one is the sensor wire location, can't recall.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

If you are going with a fancy 4 wire o2 sensor, you could connect the shield, but that's unnecessary. Just make sure the shield doesn't ground out on the signal wire. That occasionally happened to me, and caused the car to go full rich.
Also, assuming your o2 sensor mounts in the exhaust manifold, you could get away with a single wire unheated unit as well. You can get a bosch one of those for $15.


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