# aba/tdi/16v setup... done it ??? need to know



## thatGTIguy (Feb 2, 2010)

if i have an aba block (159mm) with a td crank (95.5mm) and a 16v head ... will there be enough clearance for the valves???


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## Eganx (Apr 30, 2004)

you left out two values in the equation......rods and pistons.....rod length and compression height of the piston. You can always cut some valve reliefs into the piston top to get the desired clearence....... 


But thats a hell of a stroke for a 16v which likes to live in the upper RPM range......


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

Eganx said:


> you left out two values in the equation......rods and pistons.....rod length and compression height of the piston. You can always cut some valve reliefs into the piston top to get the desired clearence.......
> 
> 
> But thats a hell of a stroke for a 16v which likes to live in the upper RPM range......


 The ABA block is 236 mm and uses 159 mm rod. 9A pistons on rebushed ABA rods are perfect for that combo. The 95.5 mm is not that much more than the stock 2l 92.8 but it is a lot heavier.


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## thatGTIguy (Feb 2, 2010)

so my worry is 2 things... 

1. how high will this crank push the piston, will the valves from the 16v hit the piston? 

2. how low will the piston travel, will it fall out the bottom of the engine?


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

thatGTIguy said:


> so my worry is 2 things...
> 
> 1. how high will this crank push the piston, will the valves from the 16v hit the piston?
> 
> 2. how low will the piston travel, will it fall out the bottom of the engine?


1.35 mm more, no


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## thatGTIguy (Feb 2, 2010)

sweet thx .... now to find a td crank


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

I am presently doing EXACTLY that;

My project goes as follows:
ABA block (stock height) stock ABA head gasket 0.062"
ABA stock rods
TDi 95.5 stroke crank lightened, clearanced & balanced (will not clear properly otherwise)
Custom pistons 83.5mm bore for ABA rods & TDi crank (need to determine proper Dynamic compression to run max compression with 93-94 pump gas with Schrick's 276's)
9A head (Big valve kit 34mm intake, 28.5mm exhaust + Ti retainers & HD springs) 
Schrick's 276's
DCOE Weber's 45
MSD 6al + 8920 + 8921


I already have a 2L16V set-up in my Mk1 Rocco, just looking to get as much info as possible on all this;

I find totaly useless a *57 pages FAQ* on the ABA-16V...
I'm sorry, I don't have a full day to spend reading through posts that are not relevant to my needs ie:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1535079-lets-get-a-ABA-16v-Parts-List-FAQ-Thread-going

So, can anyone chime in?
Irrelevant picture of my car, I'm a whore


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## slorydgti (Aug 28, 2010)

*tdi crank*

i may be able to get a 01 tdi crank if you are looking


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

OK, since this thread has started, I will post up what I have in here:

For Pistons, I will go with Wossner ABF's available from Bildon.
They are 12.4 compression, but with the TDi crank with the 1.35 mm more half stroke decking up, I will be stacking 2 ABA head gaskets adding 1.77mm, and thus reducing to an effective 11.8 static compression.

If I take into account the effective dynamic stroke; meaning that the Schrick 276 actually closes at 71.93mm stroke it gives me a dynamic compression of 8.76, which is very close to the limit that the 16V head can operate with high quality pump gas. (93-94)

Compression height for the pistons should be at 29.55mm, meanning about 3cc overdeck.

I will be posting my engine project in the Scirocco section as soon as I start receiving the needed parts.


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## Eganx (Apr 30, 2004)

to use ABF pistons with ABA rods you would need to hone the pin diameter in the piston out from 20mm to 21mm


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

Eganx said:


> to use ABF pistons with ABA rods you would need to hone the pin diameter in the piston out from 20mm to 21mm


 not true, both ABF and ABA use 21 mm pins.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

^^^ what he said...
Hopefully this thread will stay clean for others to get reliable & good information about this mod.
Please take a look at my above post, and try to understand that I am not new at this...


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## Eganx (Apr 30, 2004)

My bad...looked at wrong pistons


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## JuniorWhalen (May 15, 2008)

instead of stacking head gaskets, you could run re-bushed 9A pistons with the tdi crank and get 11:1 compression, my father has been running this setup on his aba 16v for two years. He was also able to shave the weight down to 31.6lbs instead of 38lbs by bull nosing the front and knife edging the back of the counter weights which makes it lighter than the 32lb ABA crank


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

That seems like a good compromise, but instead of having re-bushed pistons (ie machined, & need to be done properly by someone competent, which is not that easy these days...) I rather have Wossner off the shelf pistons.

Stacking of the gaskets, sounded like a ******* kind of fix, but I even see some local racers that do very well (turbo'd cars) with stacked up gaskets; it made me change my mind...

What was the most important for me, was to get the best dynamic CR for 93-94 pump gas.
This set-up, gets me there!

As for the weight of the crankshaft, you can easily get lower than 31lbs by knife edging on a td crank.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

fredybender said:


> That seems like a good compromise, but instead of having re-bushed pistons (ie machined, & need to be done properly by someone competent, which is not that easy these days...) I rather have Wossner off the shelf pistons.


 He actually meant re-bushed rods which is pretty simple and inexpensive.


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

I bought pistons from eurospec sport when I built mine. 83mm and 10-1cr. I don't see them listed on their site anymore, but the layout also changed so maybe they could still be sourced if you contacted them. I wish they would have made 83.5 and that I would have just gone with some aftermarket ones from JE or someone.

Mine is kinda lazy on the bottom but comes on strong after about 3-4k. I'm running crap management still and hope to liven it up once I go stand-alone.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

I did this with a set of JE pistons 84mm at 11:1. In the ABA block squirter #4 is sunk higher in the block. My machinist milled the mounting bosses on 1-3 to match #4 and everything fit fine. TT ported head, Weber 45s, runs like a stripped @55 ape. remember RPM limit is determined in the head, not the crank and you will make max power by 6500 so spinning it to 8000 doesn't get you much.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

What I'm really interested, is to see the difference with the huge intake valves +2mm and a less aggressive intake +0.5mm. Those matched up with the Schrick's 276's should prove interesting. 

I saw some flow numbers on those valves, (Yes I know that the flow benched do not reflect reality especially in NA engines) and they looked pretty impressive. 
They were posted somewhere on the Tex by a member... 

Got my Shcricks today 
Valves, guides, springs, seats, and retainers, should be in next friday, and so are the pistons...

/threadjack


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## airplanewrencher (Oct 14, 2008)

Subscribed. Im Currently Building an ABA 16v but going with the JE pistons 11:1 ABF from Integrated Engineering. TT 276's and a mildly ported head with GSXR ITB's. I was looking at the wossners but i dont feel like stacking head gaskets and 12.4:1 is tad too much.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

airplanewrencher said:


> Subscribed. Im Currently Building an ABA 16v but going with the JE pistons 11:1 ABF from Integrated Engineering. TT 276's and a mildly ported head with GSXR ITB's. I was looking at the wossners but i dont feel like stacking head gaskets and 12.4:1 is tad too much.


The thing with the JE's with 11:1 (static CR) coupled to the TDI crank, is that I think that you will still need to compensate: 1 head gasket probably won't not be enough;
the set-up I am building, is for dynamic compression ratio of 8.67:1 (pretty much on the limit for pump gas) taking in consideration the 276 cams.
With the JE's I would have to calculate how much it gives, but the dynamic CR is higher with a single gasket, and the TDi crank.


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## airplanewrencher (Oct 14, 2008)

fredybender said:


> The thing with the JE's with 11:1 (static CR) coupled to the TDI crank, is that I think that you will still need to compensate: 1 head gasket probably won't not be enough;
> the set-up I am building, is for dynamic compression ratio of 8.67:1 (pretty much on the limit for pump gas) taking in consideration the 276 cams.
> With the JE's I would have to calculate how much it gives, but the dynamic CR is higher with a single gasket, and the TDi crank.


Sorry for confusion. I'm not using the TDI crank. Stock ABA crank/rods with the 11:1 ABF pistons.


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## thatGTIguy (Feb 2, 2010)

slorydgti said:


> i may be able to get a 01 tdi crank if you are looking


what are the specs on a 01 tdi crank? I thought you had to use a crank from a older pre-tdi.. i heard the 1.9 td in Canada is the one to have since it is forged.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

The difference is in the key way, not that s its forged or not... 
If its the later model, it has the D shaped nose for the crank pulley, which is not compatible with the 16V crank pulley. 
They early models, and the taper & key way style which you need to run the 16V pulley...


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

airplanewrencher said:


> Sorry for confusion. I'm not using the TDI crank. Stock ABA crank/rods with the 11:1 ABF pistons.


 Its not an ABF clone thread, its a stroker TD crank, clone ABF thread...


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

And you can use the later style crank, which is too long because of the oil pump drive. Once you have a machine shop cut it down to length they can also cut in the correct keyway for the 16v gear. You also have to cut down the length of the TDi crank bolt and bore out the hole on the 16v gear because it is too small.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

fredybender said:


> The difference is in the key way, not that s its forged or not...
> If its the later model, it has the D shaped nose for the crank pulley, which is not compatible with the 16V crank pulley.
> They early models, and the taper & key way style which you need to run the 16V pulley...


We modify the ALH cranks to be able to use the older 9A/PL/ABF crank pulleys on the snout. Also we can make practically any piston combination you want.:thumbup:


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

I know you can have them machined Issam, but...
I can do it my basement too


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

Damn. That's just not fair.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

g60vw said:


> Damn. That's just not fair.


What he said....


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Bumping this up...
Developments can be read here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...de-for-the-track...-A-sister-for-Euclid/page2


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

mine is this

aba16v
i have 159mm pauter rods
11:1 comp pistons 83 bore.
arp for mains and head studs
16v head with mild port. w/ TT springs
someone gave me what i think is a eurospec block girdle. dunno if i will use it.

precision billet 67mm

i plan to run e85 next yr, we have dual 044 and 1680cc injectors.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

What I REALLY want to know is, what are the final numbers that you guys are running that did this build?? 

I want to know if its worth it to do this rather then just stick with a 9A, make it run on motronic 2.9, and do some mods to it. 

I've heard different opinions on this. Some say longer rods of the aba are better, while others say that the shorter rods in the 9a are better cause its will rev quicker. 

I want numbers, no just opionions! maybe even a dyno sheet...


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

What the longer rod will give you is about 250RPM's more for the same load in G's on the con rod (the con rod is the Achilles heel IMHO) 
It also has the fact, that the lateral movement has more "swing" that does not contribute to power. How much, only thourough testing can answer that, opinions can be very tinted & surprising... 

This thread originally stated *TDI crank *with ABA block, & 16V head
That is what I am building, I ordered some Wossner pistons, but needed to machine them because of the head interference at the squish band.
I will put real numbers and reference part numbers used in my build (can be seen in my linked build on one of my above post)
This is not an engine that you can bolt together; machining, calculations & other hurdles to be encountered (at 13:1 comp)


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## thatGTIguy (Feb 2, 2010)

i just read your post with the update to machining your pistons.. so were you saying that the piston was sitting too high with the TDI crank?


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Page 2 ownage!



































































To answer last page's question about the piston interferes with the head, the answer is yes, but only in relation to the squish band on the head (notice the pictures of the pistons with the small intereference discoloration around the piston)









FYI; broad lines needed (for my set-up)
-ABA Block bored to 84.00mm
-TD crank 95.5mm stroke (counterweight machined to clear oil squirter and lightening) balanced
-ABA rods
-Wossner 84.00mm ABF pistons machined on the 45 degree angle taking off 0.043" on the "X" axis (0.062" if you put the cross slide at 45 degrees)
-Big valve kit from TT (giving 50cc in the combustion chamber instead of the ususal 43cc's, that must be compensated for the compressio ratio to be kept; this volume will vary on each motor, as machine shops will sit valve seats at different height, and seat cutters might need more clearance, than others)
Two ABA head gaskets: Delaminate them, to mix & match for your application / compression ratio needed.
-Schrick 276's ; meaning that intake closes at 68ABDC giving a static compression of about 8.67:1 this is too high for pump gas when talking about the desing of the 16V head combustion chamber
-16V intermediate shaft
-16V oil pump

If anyone is truely building one of these, PM me, it will be my pleasure to assist in the best way I can. please no "I would like to build one too" type questions, as my time is precious...

I wish I could have found this information before building mine, but nothing was available on the tex, or otherwise. So thus the reason for me sharing my findings.

Fred


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Numbers:
Head CC's with big valves 50cc
Above deck protrusion of Wossner's 12.4:1 ABF pistons: 5.334mm
CC's oof overdeck protrusion going into the combustion chamber : 21.56cc before machining
19.5cc's final after machining to clear squish band
Max opening of the intake valves 2.8mm (Schrick 276's)
intake Opening height at TDC 1.0mm, clearance 2.88 mm without head gasket thickness in Wossner pistons
Gasket thickness for 13.05 static compression 2.97mm

Sorry about the thread jack GTIguy


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## khemiicalz (Mar 25, 2009)

hmmmm
im not far enough in my build so i rather not pm you :freddybender",but rather ask for the mases

if a longer rod gives you 250rmp more per load, and the 16v peek poweir is attained by 7krpm, why not keep it low?

can you post your formulas for everything pls

the 6th pic of your page 2 owneg, whats the point of filling the injector ports? does it give you a more linear airflow? 

you sir, are my hero
are you a proffesional engineer?


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## thatGTIguy (Feb 2, 2010)

fredybender said:


> Numbers:
> Head CC's with big valves 50cc
> Above deck protrusion of Wossner's 12.4:1 ABF pistons: 5.334mm
> CC's oof overdeck protrusion going into the combustion chamber : 21.56cc before machining
> ...


Don't be sorry... this is really great info I've been wanting to know for a long time... 

and as I always say better to be a Jack on than a Jack off... lol


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

khemiicalz said:


> A) if a longer rod gives you 250rmp more per load, and the 16v peek poweir is attained by 7krpm, why not keep it low?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A) The rod does not give you 250 more RPM's, its just the load on the con rod / bearings (roughly 2000g's) is the same at 250 rpms lower, with the rod / stroke ratio with a 144mm rod. 

B) I will be running Weber DCOE's, and the intake is port, is matched with the head.

C) No, I am in the engineering field, but this is what I like to do for fun!

PS: thanks for the kudos


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

Have you considered using a turbo-style head spacer instead of the stacked gaskets? This was one of my ideas for lowering the c/r when using an 8v head on a 16v bottom end to make it livable.

I am very impressed with your machining skills and research, but I still can't understand not ordering exactly the pistons you needed. It's my major regret from my stroker engine build.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

g60vw said:


> A) Have you considered using a turbo-style head spacer instead of the stacked gaskets? This was one of my ideas for lowering the c/r when using an 8v head on a 16v bottom end to make it livable.
> 
> I am very impressed with your machining skills and research, but
> 
> B) I still can't understand not ordering exactly the pistons you needed. It's my major regret from my stroker engine build.


A) When redoing valve seats, and major head changes, combustion chamber cc's will change.
As an example, if you wanted 8.00 dynamic compression with the 276 Schrick cams, Head gasket height after measuring both overdeck cc's & combustion chamber cc's, would have been around 3.22mm.
Spacers are a determined thickness, and cannot be adjusted to your needs; max pump gas (we have 94 here) allowance is about 8.2 for 16v heads...
All set ups are totally different, and require calculations, not "does this bolt here"
The ABA gasket is multi-layered, and is made in that way;
If you google the ABA gasket, you will find it has 4 plates, the trick is to keep the 0.009" ones on top & bottom, thats all! (they have the temperature activated sealant on them) 

B) To my knowledge, NO piston company can & will cater to highly specific demands, until someone comes up with the "recipe" for them to produce them; They are not in the business to make piston developments, but they are in in piston sales... To my knowledge, all piston manufacturers, that are selling aftermarket application pistons, are off the mark; I'm sorry, but if you're building an engine, you must be able to take volume calculations, and do your homework, not to piss an anyone's corn flakes (to take someones expression) but an engine is a pump, and calculations are required... Subtle changes in head / compression / output/ required compression / cam impact on dynamic compression ratio/ etc... they are all important, and piston manufacturers, couldn't care less...


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

From what i have heard ffrom my dealers, JE and some of the others will make you anything you will pay for. Also, eurospec sport and Autotech have already done the calcs and have specific pistons already made through JE for these stroker builds. Just throwing that info in here for others who don't have God's Machine shop in their basement .

I can't wait to see this come together!! :thumbup:


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

g60vw said:


> From what i have heard ffrom my dealers, JE and some of the others will make you anything you will pay for. Also, eurospec sport and Autotech have already done the calcs and have specific pistons already made through JE for these stroker builds. Just throwing that info in here for others who don't have God's Machine shop in their basement .
> 
> I can't wait to see this come together!! :thumbup:


Thanks for the good comments, they are truly appreciated!
As far as piston dealers, I have dealt with two American manufacturers and their engineers directly, on other projects; I still need to calculate head cc's in order to give them overdeck cc's, and communication with them, is more complicated, than machining & calculating for me...

Oh & BTW, No one has made specific pistons for TD crank ABA 16V (or ABF clone) 
Even less chances of having them done for an oversized valve head...

By the time you communicate back & forth with the Wiseco / JE engineers, my engine will be assembled!

Fred


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## zerosanity (Oct 20, 2005)

The Eurospec pistons, PN EFP 107 2067 4VC 21, are designed for the 95.5mm crank. Do you know if there would be clearance issues with them or is that already calculated into the design? I'll probably contact them if you guys don't know.


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## CanadianCabby (Sep 1, 2006)

they will have the correct compression height already..


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## zerosanity (Oct 20, 2005)

CanadianCabby said:


> they will have the correct compression height already..


Thanks. I figured it was already calculated in. I think this is the setup I am going to go for.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Oh & BTW, No one has made specific pistons for TD crank ABA 16V*

JE made me a set. I provided all the specs.

I also have the oversized intake valves on stock seats from Collin

My machinist also sunk the squirters on 1-3 to match #4 to solve the clearance problem.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

antichristonwheels said:


> *Oh & BTW, No one has made specific pistons for TD crank ABA 16V*
> 
> JE made me a set. I provided all the specs.
> 
> ...


I got the oversize valves that needed to have the larger seats in, thus having 50cc's instead of the stockish 43cc's ... Sorry should have pointed that out. It does matter on the pistons if you end up by having that much of a difference in the combustion chamber cc's...


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

its alive Muahahahah!!!! 
Starting at about 2:20 mark... 
OH BTW, we measured compression before start up: 250psi+


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

nice job i bet that thing is going to be a blast to drive :thumbup:


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

1. Wheels on. 

2. Goggles on. 

3. Drive by vids, WFO, now. 

:laugh: 

Congrats on your first fire!! When I finally fired mine 2 summers ago it was a pretty monumental achievement for us. 

SouNds pretty rowdy! Keep us posted!


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Bringing this back up:
Car is NOT tuned at all, its so lean the wideband couldn't even read the value !
Jetting is way off, but its a good thing: I calculated jet sizing according to flow / HP , and I'm too low..

I timed the cams properly: They were 14 degrees retarded (with 245 psi...) I didn't take another pressure reading yet, but C12, I think is border line...

A lot of bugs to iron out, but going in the right direction.

Imagine my grin after that first street run...
Dyno day is scheduled for April 30th I will post #'s


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

fredybender said:


> Oh & BTW, No one has made specific pistons for TD crank ABA 16V (or ABF clone)
> Even less chances of having them done for an oversized valve head.


Fred,
Just wanted to say excellent work but we have made 83 & 83.5mm pistons from 2618 alloy for the following confirguartion in the past:


236mm deck block
95.5mm stroke crankshaft
159/21mm connecting rods w/ 21mm pins
9A 16V cylinder head


You simply tell us what CC your cylinder head is (or else we go off our own data) and your desired CR then we build a piston to your specs. Is it an off the shelf piston? NO

Just thought id share that with you (and anyone else reading this thread).


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## NoShow20x96 (May 18, 2009)

Hey guys. Awesome thread. I was just wondering what the compression ratio would be if you use ABA block, ABA connecting rods, 1.9L TDI crank, 9A pistons and 9A 2.0L 16v head. I read that it's going to be 10.2:1 

I haven't read it from anywhere else and I have been doing a lot research and can't find anything. My goal is to get 11.1:1 compression ratio. 

Thanks for the info.


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## NoShow20x96 (May 18, 2009)

???????? Anyone 

Can someone get me real numbers. I keep seeing 10.2:1 10.8:1 11.1:1. I just need some real numbers.


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