# 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

*FULL STORY...*


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## fastgermancar (May 4, 2005)

I like it, just wish it would come in a manual...


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## Meatstick62 (Apr 17, 2007)

I thought the front brakes from the TDI cup cars were sourced from the R8...


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## ChrisSince1987 (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: (Meatstick62)*

and i thought i had wheel gap issues... 
must be the pre-runner package










_Modified by ChrisSince1987 at 7:05 PM 11-5-2008_


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## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (fastgermancar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fastgermancar* »_I like it, just wish it would come in a manual...

it won't because most american drivers are too stupid and don't know how to drive a manual any more. Only about 8 pecent of car sales were manuals last year. Besides, how can you shift if you got a cell phone glued to your pie hole...


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## Grand Admiral Thrawn (Dec 10, 2000)

Will the DSG gear set be the same as the R32?


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## Sprockets (Feb 17, 1999)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

SWEET MOTHER!
That's EXACTLY what I want (or NEED) for commuting to work! I voted Yes on the GTI TDI thread, but this Jetta Cup would work just fine! They should do a GTI though, too!
Man, I want it now!


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## MKV.RABBIT (Jun 18, 2007)

Now if only it was a hatchback


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## lostinnc (Jul 13, 2001)

*Re: (MKV.RABBIT)*

I'm really interested... would not go with it unless I could get a manual and a hatch... the rest of it is very nice...


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: (MKV.RABBIT)*

Even though I prefer manual transmissions, I could live with the DSG. I just want it in a much more useful hatch configuration. 










_Modified by bigfatgeek at 2:04 AM 11-6-2008_


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## 96GTI8v (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (bigfatgeek)*

Ill take on TDICupGTI in 6sp manual please........NO?!....... wait......what......really?


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## Boostin20v (Mar 22, 2000)

*FV-QR*

wtf is with all the 'special' cars getting DSG? My interest in this car just went to zero.


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## 96GTI8v (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Boostin20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boostin20v* »_wtf is with all the 'special' cars getting DSG? My interest in this car just went to zero.


Yea, if all these cars are supposed to be special "sport" editions of some sorts then why cant i choose to row if i want?

Its like my dads friend and his automatic corvette. Unless you have onne leg or a missing arm, grow some cojones and run the gears yourself. 


_Modified by 96GTI8v at 5:43 AM 11-6-2008_


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## andres16V (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (96GTI8v)*

it will be available in manual and DSG. I spoke to the VW rep at SEMA.


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## Inkarnata (Nov 26, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (andres16V)*

It's still is a Jetta...and DSG would kill any interest from me.


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

it's ummmmm.... cute? the brakes are cute - i bet the power figures are cute - & i bet it would look cute getting trashed by a totally stock 1989 16v GTI around the track. I know VW has better engineers then that. they need to stop letting those wimpy marketing idiots dictate what hits the market. & fire all the artsy idiots who do the body design... lets get to something great! 
I would settle for a 205hp 6 speed DSG or preferably Manual Haldex AWD Hatchback. nothing less... if it's less I will jsut build it from a real VW (MKII Golf)


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## 02VDubGTI (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

i am just fine with the DSG like everyone else wants out.... I want the SportWagen version of this!!


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## NotoriousDUB (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (02VDubGTI)*

They better offer a manual in that thing. Let's list the following cars that are ruined by the lack of a proper transmission.
-MK5 R32
-Fahrenheit GTI
-Passat 3.6
-Eos 3.2
Seriously VW, please for just a moment stop thinking that the DSG is God's gift to the performance-oriented enthusiast.


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (NotoriousDUB)*

DSG is gods gift to a fast car... it's far better then a manual will ever be - as far as getting to speed fast... but i do really enderstand the desire for a manual
I wnt it to be a manual too.


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## mpgmk472 (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (FrankenCar)*

Sign me up..with a 5-spd that is...


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## MKV.RABBIT (Jun 18, 2007)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (mpgmk472)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mpgmk472* »_Sign me up..with a 5-spd that is...

The regular Jetta TDI comes with either a 6-speed manual...or 6-speed DSG...


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## mpgmk472 (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (mpgmk472)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mpgmk472* »_Sign me up..with a 5-spd that is...

Ok so I meant 6-speed


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## dub*man (Aug 7, 2005)

seriously... WTF is with this new tend of "performance" cars with auto boxes at least offer the people who want manual transmissions the choice, even if it has to be built to order?


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: (dub*man)*

Um... DSG isn't an auto. it's a maual with 2 clutches that will shift for you...







the real reason Auto Sluchboxees suck is because they will eat 20% of your power & fuel maleage... the DSG will not do that. from a pure preformance standpoint the DSG is far better then any manual will ever be... but like you said - people shold be able to purchase them as manuals. most peo;e don't want th performance as much as the want the cool felling they get when they shift, & most people will never drive the cars hard enough to care.


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## TURBO PAUL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

What a great car, as long as we get the manual trans. But I just don't like that 'Thunder Bunny' gaping maw nose, and of course the ride height......and then bring a Golf and wagon version.

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (TURBO PAUL)*

lowering it would only make it handle worse & suck to drive in parking lots & on freeways in certain states.


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## TURBO PAUL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (FrankenCar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankenCar* »_lowering it would only make it handle worse & suck to drive in parking lots & on freeways in certain states.

Ummm, a lower center of gravity will not make it handle worse, that's why all performance versions of cars sit lower. I didn't say slam it, but a GTI style ride height would enhance the looks, the performance, and, IMO, the appeal to the target audience.


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (TURBO PAUL)*

they pay alot of $$ to alot of engineers to design that car... the suspension geometry is set up just right a a stock ride height. the only thing lowering is good for is pleasing the average dude who has no clue & has never gone fast in competition. if you look at real factoy based racecars - they are not lowered. the body is just modified a hair to keep the air out from under the car. in order to lower without harming handling - the position of the wheel centerline needs to change in relation to the ball joint & tie rod end. this would require a different wheel bearing housing. I have yet to see VW do that for it's "performance" models. if you have driven both in stock form & think the lower one handles better... consider the shocks, spring rate, sway bars, & tires. there are many good books on suspension geometery that may be worth reading.


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## Daemon688 (Mar 23, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (FrankenCar)*

So when the frick are we getting a TDI Rabbit? I have ZERO interest in a Jetta, Jetta "Street" edition, or a Jetta "sportwagen".


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (Daemon688)*

I am sooooo with you on that.


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## 84_GTI_child (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (FrankenCar)*

ya this car is pretty sweet, but its lacking something... hmm
-front bumper








-ugly stickers








-possibly wont come with a manual








-trunk









i think a hatchback or sportwagon would be nice!
its nice to see they are making a sport tdi http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TURBO PAUL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (FrankenCar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankenCar* »_they pay alot of $$ to alot of engineers to design that car... the suspension geometry is set up just right a a stock ride height. the only thing lowering is good for is pleasing the average dude who has no clue & has never gone fast in competition. if you look at real factoy based racecars - they are not lowered. the body is just modified a hair to keep the air out from under the car. in order to lower without harming handling - the position of the wheel centerline needs to change in relation to the ball joint & tie rod end. this would require a different wheel bearing housing. I have yet to see VW do that for it's "performance" models. if you have driven both in stock form & think the lower one handles better... consider the shocks, spring rate, sway bars, & tires. there are many good books on suspension geometery that may be worth reading.

True, but then since VW sets the R32 & GTI's suspension lower than the Rabbit and Jetta, are they doing this to please average clueless dudes, and not to enhance the performance? I guess they did this for the same reasons when they lowered the MKIV GLI 1.8T and 20thAE GTI's?? Or the fact that the same VW engineers actually design the cars with a lower ride height in the home countries in Europe, and raise the cars for the US market. 
Again, I agree that a slammed suspension is just for looks, and ruins the ride and usefulness of the car, but obviously a proper lower ride height is a performance enhancement, and a performance model like this car deserves it, just like the GTI.


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## dub*man (Aug 7, 2005)

well technically they did do that to the 20th ann. GTIs. iirc. But dont quote me on that


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## jdubboost (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

this is gotta be a preview of the gti tdi. (if they give us one)


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## TURBO PAUL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (dub*man)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dub*man* »_well technically they did do that to the 20th ann. GTIs. iirc. But dont quote me on that









My point exactly, they did. When the VW engineers, like those of the other manufacturers want to make their cars handle better and have a more sporting feel, they include lowering the car to improve the center of gravity.


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## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

The front bumper is NOT doing anything for me.. :/ Isn't the all new Jetta coming out sometime in 2010 anyways?


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## Chi Town TDI (Nov 12, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Wow am I the only one with a TDI posting on this thread? I dunno about u guys, manny or not, these cars fly around the track. I think its a good idea to put these out. Much better car to buy than a hondah or somthing for the price....


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## LMHConcepts (May 28, 2006)

*Re: (TURBO PAUL)*

Is it just me, or do the new designs just look like $hit? They all have "styling" packages that look like they belong on an Evo or riced out Civic. I for one am not impressed with anything they have released lately (from the styling side, atleast).


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## MKV.RABBIT (Jun 18, 2007)

*Re: (LMHConcepts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LMHConcepts* »_Is it just me, or do the new designs just look like $hit? They all have "styling" packages that look like they belong on an Evo or riced out Civic. I for one am not impressed with anything they have released lately (from the styling side, atleast).

I agree


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## jayparry (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re: (MKV.RABBIT)*

so now they come out with this concept.. what happened to the TDI Sport Jetta that they showed at last year's LA auto show? It was basically a GLI with a TDI engine... no word of that... and now they 'testing' this concept with the ugly thunder bunny bumper.


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## sanch0 (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

why wouldn't they put the real TDI Cup wheels on it?







the front brakes look an awful lot like my stock GTI brakes. what about the Cup car's R8-sourced brakes? and since we're whining, how about the race suspension? and an upgraded ECU?
gimme all that (in Golf form) and maybe i wouldn't hold out for a MkVI.


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## dub*man (Aug 7, 2005)

*Re: (TURBO PAUL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TURBO PAUL* »_
My point exactly, they did. When the VW engineers, like those of the other manufacturers want to make their cars handle better and have a more sporting feel, they include lowering the car to improve the center of gravity.

Oh no I meant that they made them handle worse than the normal GTIs by lowering them. I think i was reading motortrend when I saw that a buick and honda van did the slalom faster than the 20th hah


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## 83Caddy16v (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re:*


_Quote, originally posted by *cover story* »_
The TDI Cup “Street” will be available in similar GLI colors and feature “TDI Cup Edition” appliqué for the vehicle side and branded door sill inserts. The interior brings upgrades that include a race-inspired three-spoke steering wheel with the TDI Cup logo and interlagos cloth sport seats.
Based on consumer feedback, the Jetta TDI Cup Edition may be available as early as 2010 with a price starting under $30,000. 

- Sounds as though it may be a GLI with a TDI transplant
- Add a unique touch like R32 dials 
- A wagon version and/or 4-motion would be icing on the cake with 40mpg
- If they are going "sport" hopefully the DSG will have paddles. 
- interlagos http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
- 2010 - MkVI should right around the corner so this might make this a one year run.


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## redneckdzl (Jun 26, 2007)

I think the car is amazing, and if i could talk the boss into it, that would be my next company car.
But it think we missed the biggest piece out of the race car, the 170 HP tune, they were using, versus the stock 140, you can have that in the regular jetta.
If i get a street version of the race car, atleast give me a bit more power, cause i know they can


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Nov 13, 2000)

Sign me up for the 6 speed version. Perfect car for my 80 mile daily commute.


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## tsots_leo (May 31, 2002)

*Re:*









Did anybody notice that the new Jetta TDI Cup has a painted rear stock valence and painted stock side skirts from a GLI?
I wonder is the texture of the plastic is different from the ones that come on stock GLIs?


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## LMHConcepts (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Re: (tsots_leo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsots_leo* »_








Did anybody notice that the new Jetta TDI Cup has a painted rear stock valence and painted stock side skirts from a GLI?
I wonder is the texture of the plastic is different from the ones that come on stock GLIs?

VW Engineers - Lazy an extremely uncreative. It's like they hired someone from Extreme Dimensions or Andys Auto Sport to design there kits. They look like $hit!


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

6 speed would be nice


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## 17 (Aug 19, 2000)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Based on consumer feedback, the Jetta TDI Cup Edition may be available as early as 2010 with a price starting under $30,000

My feedback: give me proper 6 speed and make it a hatch!
"...as *early* as 2010..."? what are you waiting for? Wake up VW


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## Brimjolt (May 16, 2008)

*Re: (96GTI8v)*

no 6spd...no sale. Sorry.


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## snafuracer94 (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (17)*

VW needs to get on it. Why the "performance" versions are coming with DSG's only I dont know. Enthusiasts like to shift gears. I have driven literally hundreds of DSG equipped cars and if I loose a leg or arm I will get a DSG equipped VW. They are really good, but they arent a manual. And VW will offer the TDI Cup Jetta in 2010. Hurry up and strike while the market is at least warm!! Great idea, just too late!!


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: (dub*man)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dub*man* »_
Oh no I meant that they made them handle worse than the normal GTIs by lowering them. I think i was reading motortrend when I saw that a buick and honda van did the slalom faster than the 20th hah









yeah... my lifted MKII handles better then a 20th.


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## tsots_leo (May 31, 2002)

Does anybody have any pics of the interior?


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## felixthecat (Nov 5, 2002)

*Re: (tsots_leo)*

As an '09 CR TDI owner, I was initially upset when I saw the news that VW was going to bring this car to the market. However, the same things you're all upset about have me feeling better. No 6MT? Seriously? C'mon VW.... And I agree with whomever said you'd like more pep out of the engine in a "sport" model. Not that the '09 TDIs aren't quick enough (if you haven't driven one yet... you've got to! you'll fall in love right away!), but I'm struggling to see the justification in $7k+ for, largely, cosmetic changes. 
On a related note, why all the Jetta hatred in here? Is the boot that ugly for you? Or must you fit your car into a tiny parking spot (again, not that there is anything tiny about mk5s to begin with)? They're the same car; one has a trunk and one doesn't. I'll assume we simply have different aesthetic values, which is fine!
Cheers!


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## TdiRacing (Apr 22, 2004)

From speaking to some VW reps, this is what I gathered this car will be:
This car would offer (above today's car 2009 TDI sedan)

18" wheels
Larger GLI brakes painted red
GLI sport suspension
Full thunder bunny body kit (front bumper, side skits, rear valence) this alone is 3K+
FULL GLI cloth interior with sport seats
GLI sport steering wheel
Come in both manual(6 speed) and DSG
TDI cup decal
TDI cup steering wheel clip
TDI cup door sill
Darkened taillights
This quite a different car over the base model 2009 Jetta. I had some reserves about it until I saw and was told all that may be in the car when it is released. The steering wheel alone is an $700 upgrade. This basically has all the stuff I would want in a TDI. Trading my 06 in once they are out for one of these for sure.


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## SFCL (Apr 18, 2008)

*Re: (fastgermancar)*

NOBODY IS LOOKING AT THE COST OF DSG.FLUID AND FILTER CHANGE AT 40K MILES IS AROUND $300.I HAVE AN 08 R32 BUT MISS MY 04(STOLEN FROM DEALERSHIP IN SAN DIEGO0VOA CAN SAY WHAT EVER THEY WANT BUT REAR SPORTS CAR HAVE STICK SHIFT


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## champion (Dec 6, 2002)

I hope the speculation about a 6MT being available is correct. The DSG is technically awesome, but I still prefer having a traditional manual, and if this is DSG only it won't be on my shopping list. Despite our love of VW and awd machines, my wife and I didn't even consider the DSG-only R32.
With a 6MT, I would certainly give it a spin... and my next purchase should be just in time for the '10 models to be coming out.


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## OrangesAnonymous (Dec 9, 2005)

*Re: (SFCL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SFCL* »_NOBODY IS LOOKING AT THE COST OF DSG.FLUID AND FILTER CHANGE AT 40K MILES IS AROUND $300.I HAVE AN 08 R32 BUT MISS MY 04(STOLEN FROM DEALERSHIP IN SAN DIEGO0VOA CAN SAY WHAT EVER THEY WANT BUT REAR SPORTS CAR HAVE STICK SHIFT

calm down.


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## Brimjolt (May 16, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (andres16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *andres16V* »_it will be available in manual and DSG. I spoke to the VW rep at SEMA.


im interested again


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## TURBO PAUL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (FrankenCar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dub*man* »_
Oh no I meant that they made them handle worse than the normal GTIs by lowering them. I think i was reading motortrend when I saw that a buick and honda van did the slalom faster than the 20th hah 


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankenCar* »_yeah... my lifted MKII handles better then a 20th.


Yes, no doubt that is why VW lowered the 20th's, to take the handling of the GTI down a peg. Makes sense. Damn I feel so dumb....and I guess that is why they raise the ride height on all US bound VW's from the Euro ride heights, since of course we all know the Euro cars can't handle like the US cars. And of course that's why they lowered the US spec GTI last year to the Euro ride height, to take away the handling of the cars. Yup, silly me, I feel so dumb.I guess that why my Yukon out handles my Jetta, it's that awesome high center of gravity at work to my advantage. 
Not to mention those obviously stupid engineers at BMW, Mercedes, Audi, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, etc who keep stupidly lowering their high-performance models, not realizing that they are screwing up the handling of those cars. I wonder how those guys ever got their jobs? Man, I hope they are all reading this forum so they can all learn something.
All I know is I am glad I learned something today!


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: (TURBO PAUL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TURBO PAUL* »_

Yes, no doubt that is why VW lowered the 20th's, to take the handling of the GTI down a peg. Makes sense. Damn I feel so dumb....and I guess that is why they raise the ride height on all US bound VW's from the Euro ride heights, since of course we all know the Euro cars can't handle like the US cars. And of course that's why they lowered the US spec GTI last year to the Euro ride height, to take away the handling of the cars. Yup, silly me, I feel so dumb.I guess that why my Yukon out handles my Jetta, it's that awesome high center of gravity at work to my advantage. 
Not to mention those obviously stupid engineers at BMW, Mercedes, Audi, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, etc who keep stupidly lowering their high-performance models, not realizing that they are screwing up the handling of those cars. I wonder how those guys ever got their jobs? Man, I hope they are all reading this forum so they can all learn something.
All I know is I am glad I learned something today!









OK Kids... Crack is bad!









Now... Most Vehicles handle best at their stock ride height. (Euro vs US is what 0.4" - holy crap that's massive!







) when they sell a "performance" model it is often lower - or has a body kit that makes it look lower because that is what the average retard consumer thinks is cool. & they may even handle better! - but that's typically due to the much better tires these cars are normally equipped with & other factors such as spring rate - bushing type & damper technology. For example - the R32 has much better suspension bushings the the standard GTI & much better tires... the factory may sell a car a little taller or a little lower depending on what they think the customer wants. in urope you can get most VW's with the Rough Road option which is a tinly lift - typically 1/2". small height changes like this normally have no significant effect on a stock vehicle that has so much variation in tires, suspension, & chassis stiffness. Now since most people obviously will not be racing this car - it makes no difference... you should not be needing it to go that fast on a public road either







. Now I want a bunch of these Idiots who think they can drive to go buy this fancy new model of VW & wreck them for me so I don't have tu cut up a new car for the engine I want.







All I really hope for is to see it in the U.S @ 170 hp or better yet 205 hp.


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## Originaldub72 (May 22, 2006)

*Re: (FrankenCar)*

Yea, I,m sure of that but handles worse than my properly lower MkII GLI....


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## Originaldub72 (May 22, 2006)

*Re: (FrankenCar)*

"Most Vehicles handle best at their stock ride height." & "A body kit or body alterations to make it look like it's lowered." I can't believe you say that in complete confidence. VW hasn't changed any of the lines on the car (ie: front and rear fenders) to give it the illusion of being lowered. If you question that, I suggest you check the part #'s as you'll only see a difference in the shock and spring #'s. As for lowering degrading the handling characteristics I disagree. TDI racecars from this years series are lowered. If it was bad thing, they wouldn't do it. When beetle cup came out in 2000, they were all lower than stock. To say that lowering is bad says you go against every single race series, from grass roots to professional motorsports, principals for extracting the maximum from an automobile.


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## felixthecat (Nov 5, 2002)

*Re: (Originaldub72)*

Suspension geometry, people. For any car with a MacPherson front suspension, the farther from parallel to the ground the control arms become, the more work the suspension has to do to keep the wheels gripping the road.
Anybody in here familiar with the Shine Real Street suspension? It looks quite haggard but is generally regarded as the best handling streetable set up you can buy for a well-balanced and mean handling car. As Frankencar said, lowered sports models often handle better because of higher spring rates, better suspension components and much better tires.
As for why racecars are lowered, you need to consider their suspension geometry. I'd be shocked if the arms aren't parallel... racecars can be built to the precise specifications that a race team wants.
All of this being said, I lowered my mk3 with H&R sports and Bilstein sports. It does handle better than stock, although only negligibly. I wanted the lower stance and I didn't want to destroy my handling, so the 1.5" drop was a good compromise for me. The higher spring rates coupled with the stiffer shocks give me a slightly better handling car that _feels_ a lot sportier.


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## vedipus (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (felixthecat)*

MANUAL 
WAGON
SOLD.


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: (Originaldub72)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Originaldub72* »_Yea, I,m sure of that but handles worse than my properly lower MkII GLI....

i'm sure my car hanle worse then yours too! I have no sway bars...







the other day i was following my frind in his 20th & he couldn't possibly get away... it was great fun!


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Lowering*

I would reccommend that anyone who wants the actual truth aobut this should go build a few racecars, race them & then decide.








after that - we can have this discussion again. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If you like - i can show you a properly lowered car.


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Lowering (FrankenCar)*

actually... here is that pic of the properly lowered car i mentioned... trust me... the factory is not doing this in the cars we can get at the dealer.


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Lowering (FrankenCar)*

And if you can't tell in that pic what's going on... you should not be a part of the lowered vs not lowered discussion.


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## Originaldub72 (May 22, 2006)

*Re: Lowering (FrankenCar)*

My friend, I apologize for my tone yesterday as it was un-called for. I was carrying some "baggage" from work yesterday and it spilled out into the wrong forum. Getting back to the topic, I've heard this discussion about the position of the A-arms before and had adopted it early on in my learnings. My education that drove me away from this concept is from racing an SCCA ITS (now ITA) 1990 2.0 16v Jetta. I was also influenced by my tire temps & fellow VW racers as you always have to push envelope in order to find some new ideas. One of those guys I asked the question too is Randy Pobst....you might heard of him. This is a guy who started out in VW's and still owns a few. He doesn't agree with the A'arm concept either. I yes my shocks are shortened, and my spring rates are 600 front and 850 rear so my suspension movement is minimized. Yes, if you hit a bump, like sebring turn 17, you'll have some bump steer. Yet, in the end the car handles fantastic and is very consistant over an hour 30 to 60min race.
On my street car of the same vintage, I run 500 front and 600 rear. It handles very well on street tires. On my 2006 MKV GTI, I run 900lbs springs all the way around. All my cars run between 2-3 degrees negative up front and .5 degrees negative in the rear with a sixteeth of tow out all the way around.
As for the original concept with the TDI Street version, leave it at the track version ride height as it's very reasonable. They can get it to work on the street with no issue. Trust me on that one. Every ride in a car with Moton competition shocks and springs? It feels to soft but handles awesome!!


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## TechEd (Nov 11, 2000)

*Re: Lowering (Originaldub72)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Originaldub72* »_On my 2006 MKV GTI, I run 900lbs springs all the way around.
 







Seriously? You drive this car on the street? Do you run R-Comps or slicks with those rates? Race cars belong on race tracks, not the street. 
From setting up a friends coil-equipped MKV for HPDE, I recall front corner weights in the 970 - 940 range, and rears in the 600 - 580 range. While you do have a relatively long wheelbase, high CG and high polar moment going for you, with 900lb springs the front static deflection rate ends up being minuscule to the point instantaneous weight transfer to the tires, and the rear actually exaggerating this through no deflection whatsoever. Even on full acceleration or rearward lateral loads, the rear springs will hardly deflect at all, and will instantaneously unload forward on forward lateral loads! With 900 lb. springs all around, this represents incredibly high static suspension deflection rates and resulting frequency. 
My quickie math shows the fronts to be just over 3Hz. and the rears to be well over 4Hz (compensating for the inboard mounting location of the rear springs on the MKV, and the resulting change in motion ratio relative to spring rate). This matches or exceeds rates used on those "curb-hopping" DTM cars in the 90s. The longitudinal and lateral weight transfer rates that result from 900lb. springs are unsafe for any street tire, and pushes the limits of any slick. You can absolutely forget about the average driver having the skills to manage weight transfer and frequency rates like this. Rates in the 450 / 350 range for a MKV is about the most even a seasoned driver could handle for street or HPDE duty. 
Now, should your MKV be a dedicated track car at or about 3000 lbs... well, I'll tell you that we tested, and immediately rejected any rates north of 800lbs on our GTA class Corrado (2600lb with 50% cross weight) ...even running 10" Goodyear 430 - 600 slicks on smooth tracks because of the insane weight transfer rates and accelerated tire graining/wear. Of course, my alarm is based on the function of a 900lb/ rate related to a given chassis at-limit handling. If the car is just driven easy on the street, well below the chassis and tire tractive limits, you won't have an issue and the bragging rights will work wonderfully on those that don't have a clue ...until the driver of such a stiffly-sprung car encounters rain or the elevation of the road changes abruptly. 
Also, the function of the MKV rear IRS is such that the rear corners gain positive camber and toe in on bump to infuse the wonderful lift-throttle tuck-in that the MKV is famous for. This function depends entirely on the OE static camber setting of -1°45' ± 30' and total toe setting of +10' ± 12.5'. Adding more positive static camber at -0.5 increases the tendency for lift-throttle and snap-oversteer that cannot be accounted for with 1/16th (about +14') of additional toe, especially in light of 900lb rear springs causing instantaneous forward/lateral weight transfer. 
BTW, those that hold the "level lower McPherson control arm" myth and generalization close to their hearts are sadly "under-informed". The proper way to look at this is via the geometric relationship between the ball joint (BJ) pivot point and the lover control arm (LCA) pivot point. Sometimes, but not always, a level geometric relationship is better. The angle or shape of the mechanical arm in between these points is irrelevant because not all control arms mount the ball joint pivot directly in line with the arm and the LCA pivot point. The high roll center geometry of the MKV Audi TT is a good example). Also, the strut inclination, caster angle and kingpin inclination all affect the bump and droop camber curves relative to the total suspension travel and steering arcs of the BJ. In many cases, the OE ride height function of these angles is actually optimized with non-level, static BJ and LCA angles (Example: MKIV). However, regardless of static BJ and LCA pivot points and LCA angles, the fact remains that excessive lowering will always compromise the suspension and steering geometry in some form or another, and will always result in bump-droop steer that worsens steering feel and stability = handling worsens overall. 
The higher effective wheel rates needed to offset the increased tendency of a lowered McPherson strut chassis to roll will always increase the weight transfer rates into the tires and forces them to saturate these loads much sooner ("makes them work harder"). More importantly, this also places much more emphasis on driving skill as the chassis approaches the tractive limits of tires that are forced to saturate sooner. VWAG knew this when they kept the same spring rates for their US market "lowered for aesthetics only with just a touch of better damping control" MKIV GTI 337, 20AE and 05.5 GLI ...and this resulted in chassis that rode just as nice as regular MKIV, but almost immediately rolled over onto the bump stops when pushed hard. In this, they totally dropped the ball by deferring to maintaining a nice ride. The abrupt change from having a 130lb. front rate one moment and then a 350lb. (bump stop) rate the next made for a car that was completely imbalanced and frustrating for seasoned drivers to drive smoothly ...not that this mattered much because most of the time the chassis was fine if not pushed to it's tractive limits and the average driving skill of owners made any assumptions in "handling improvement" a moot point anyway. 
*Understanding the dynamics of handling improvement, especially with the engineering scope in which this lives, is and will always be centered on compromise management relative to the performance of the tires and the skill of the driver*. Subjective handling perceptions are more often than not, formed in a vacuum ...and far too often we hear someone extolling the virtues of his/her setup ...especially spewing forth brand names and "it handles like on rails." Because everyone's needs, perceptions and skills are different, such anecdotes are essentially useless, no matter how much they are revered by newbies. Lowering with crappy tires, soft spring rates and no skill is only living a lie. 
Instead, it's advisable for enthusiasts to stop thinking about handling in a peer-driven, mostly cumulative absolute or ultimate sense when production-based suspensions are changed. Changing one thing to improve at-the limit handling performance will * always * worsen something else. Milliken & Milliken, authours of Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (the most read and respected vehicle handling dynamics text) start out by summing it up quite simply: "Everything affects everything else" ...and then provide multiple chapters on the positive and counter-negative effects of changing the mechanical and geometric relationships of the steering and suspension components. 
Making a chassis feel more alive or responsive for below-the-limit handling duty can be done with any aftermarket or OEM part (brand is irrelevant) and is usually safe because the compromises that result from those changes rarely surface. If, however, the effective wheel rates are increased at any time in doing so, and the tires and driver skill part of the equation are not addressed at the same time (gauging the possibility of the youthful target demographic to get in over their heads by pushing the car to its limits), the results can be disastrous on the occasion the chassis is pushed to the limit (Example: Original Audi TT).
As a result, VWoA did the right thing by maintaining the suspension height and compliance in the TDI Cup offering. The aftermarket will see to it that these cars will eventually be molested by misinformed owners that want to live the lie of race cars for the street, anyway.


_Modified by TechEd at 2:12 PM 11-14-2008_


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## fastgermancar (May 4, 2005)

that was a lot to take in....
But I'll vouch for what you are saying, my car was easy to drive at the limit when it had stock suspension (It was just scary because of bodyroll) and now that I'm lowered on Neuspeed race springs and bilstein sport shocks it definetly inspires more confidence in turning but when it breaks loose it is a lot harder to control than it was stock.
But I knew this going into it, the shop that lowered it for me even gave me a whole talk about how the car is going to be much easier to loose control in at the edge once I lowered it that much haha. Go Eurowurx!


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: (fastgermancar)*

The fastest i was ever able to traverse a certain stretch of road that i regularly drive & time was in my last car. It was a 1986 GTI with a ride height that was within an inch of stock & the spring rates were 220 front & 185 rear. It had Bilstein HD shocks on all four corners & I was running 205/50R15 BFG's. I'm sure the built ABA, 11" Willwood kit, Stress bars, big sway bars and some weight reduction helped a bit too. during the time I had it I went through 7 different suspension setups & many sets of tires. there were 2 cars that would destroy me on the track that couldn't seem to follow on these roads I speak of. In fact the only other car that could ever seem to keep up was one equipped with an identical suspension... It was a 16v... I'm sure that on a nicely paved track there would be many that could do it quicker... but on pavement you should always have enough travel to soak up what you hit, and the right spring rate for the driver's expertese level & road conditions. The car i currently drive is obviously not setup for driving the twistys quickly... but it is set up just right for what I intended to use it for... Loggin roads & daily driving... I was considering setting it up just like a gravel rally car, but the water breaks in the roads where i prefer to travel would high center it - or at least destroy the floor. I am pleasantly surprised by the relatively decent handling concidering the hight ride height. I will say though that with no sway bars, rather soft spring rates, & odd front suspension geometry - it isn't the most confidence inspiring thing to drive fast on a windy road, but once it's in the dirt! watch out!


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## TechEd (Nov 11, 2000)

*Re: Lowering (Originaldub72)*

In the context of my post above, another interesting point to ponder is as follows:
The VWdMexico and VWoA teams that did the R&D and on-track tests on the TDI Cup cars worked with a mutual resource I also use for my SpeedWerks Corrado. I'm told that after agreeing upon the front and rear H&R setups for the cars (based on data acquired from VW Motorpsort), and got the shorter front swaybar connector links fabricated and corner weights dialed in, their original plan to use shaved street radial EPS tires (RE-01R) or R-Comps (BFG g-Force R1) had to be shelved. The combination of a relatively heavy chassis, high spring rates (weight transfer) and high polar moment absolutely chewed up these tires during the proposed race duration test sessions. They had no choice but to go with slightly softer rates and use a pure road racing slick that could handle the high saturation rates, settling on the current Michelin units. I call that "Compromise Management in Action!!!"
And you can be sure that they raised and softened the suspensions for the wet race at Mosport ...just like I do on my Corrado, and just like everyone else in the paddock does ...compromise management in action, indeed. No absolutes or ultimates here.
It's just too bad that, as pure race cars, the TDI Cup Jettas have more chassis than motor ...In my many decades as a driver and engineer, I never relished any car-specific racecraft technique that was based entirely on "momentum" and the associated, inevitable body contact.


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## GTIScottie (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: (jayparry)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jayparry* »_so now they come out with this concept.. what happened to the TDI Sport Jetta that they showed at last year's LA auto show? 

Looks to me that this is it.


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## vwguy3 (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: (MKV.RABBIT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKV.RABBIT* »_Now if only it was a hatchback









I will second that!! I love the sportwagen


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (FrankenCar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankenCar* »_they pay alot of $$ to alot of engineers to design that car... the suspension geometry is set up just right a a stock ride height. the only thing lowering is good for is pleasing the average dude who has no clue & has never gone fast in competition. if you look at real factoy based racecars - they are not lowered. the body is just modified a hair to keep the air out from under the car. in order to lower without harming handling - the position of the wheel centerline needs to change in relation to the ball joint & tie rod end. this would require a different wheel bearing housing. I have yet to see VW do that for it's "performance" models. if you have driven both in stock form & think the lower one handles better... consider the shocks, spring rate, sway bars, & tires. there are many good books on suspension geometery that may be worth reading.

MKIV R32 has modified spindles to account for the change in roll center when the engineers lowered it. Those same spindles were used on the Audi TT. 
The GLI and 20th were lowered but without the front end geometry changes (due to budget reasons I'm assuming)...and in actuality handle worse than your average sport suspension GTI of the same vintage. Their only saving grace were the pilot sports that were equipped from the factory.


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## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (02VDubGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02VDubGTI* »_ I want the SportWagen version of this!!

With manual transmission... might make me interested... although the car will probably be out a year or two too soon for my next VW...


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## Brimjolt (May 16, 2008)

*Re: (TURBO PAUL)*

needs a sweet spoiler


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## Spa_driver (Jul 31, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition (Green Hare)*

Today I took a low-speed corner faster than planned and I was amazed how my new cheap suspension and tire upgrages(Koni STR.T/215-wide Falken 452's) made my stock height Jetta stick like glue. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MOUNTAINGARAGE (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: (FrankenCar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankenCar* »_Um... DSG isn't an auto. it's a maual with 2 clutches that will shift for you...







the real reason Auto Sluchboxees suck is because they will eat 20% of your power & fuel maleage... the DSG will not do that. from a pure preformance standpoint the DSG is far better then any manual will ever be... but like you said - people shold be able to purchase them as manuals. most peo;e don't want th performance as much as the want the cool felling they get when they shift, & most people will never drive the cars hard enough to care.

Well Said! You can tell the ignorance is abundant in regards to the DSG. 
People that have a fixation with rowing through the gears need to concentrate on their lines instead of wasting time shifting!! a DSG does not mis-shift, and it shifts faster than Ricky Bobby on a Red Bull IV. A few years ago, before having a 2005 M3 SMG, I would never drive an auto(6spd manauto). I have since changed my mind....








last but not least, VW needs to sell cars to stay in business, not limit sales to the 8% that like rowing through the gears...


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## jonwolfsburg (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Boostin20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boostin20v* »_wtf is with all the 'special' cars getting DSG? My interest in this car just went to zero.

Agreed. It's a shame that the Jetta RGT is also in DSG. What the hell?


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## autoxdriver (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: 2008 SEMA - Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup "Street" Edition ([email protected])*

Well, I guess they want to know what we think.
Vote away.....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4292089


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