# Breaking in my freshly built VRT....



## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Just got my 24vT running and I was wondering what the general break in period was before the boost can be turned up? (How many km's / miles?) I'm running off the spring right now @ 6 psi.

As far as maintenance goes does an oil / filter change every 5000 km's sound good? Replace spark plugs every 2 oil changes? Any other things I should look after?

Also I have a few other issues:



Someone told me that I definitely must / 100% / no discussion replace the rod bearings or I will definitely blow them. I've been told even at 10 psi the bearings will be a problem. I've always read on here that a HG spacer + ARP head studs should be good up to ~400HP (which is what I've installed). I had 200,000 km's on the motor before I threw the turbo setup in. Thoughts?

I'm not sure why, but when I slow down to stop at a light my RPM's hover by themselves at around 1k RPM for 2-3 seconds then it settles to 800-ish RPM like normal. Any idea what would cause this?


thnx in advance :thumbup:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

You're good...There are guys running big power on a stock engine. I would worry about rod bolts till around 450-500hp.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> [*]Someone told me that I definitely must / 100% / no discussion replace the rod bearings or I will definitely blow them. I've been told even at 10 psi the bearings will be a problem. I've always read on here that a HG spacer + ARP head studs should be good up to ~400HP (which is what I've installed). I had 200,000 km's on the motor before I threw the turbo setup in. Thoughts?


the upside, is you now have one less person to take advice from, as you can remove this person from your list, as they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

adding 1 full bar of boost adds almost no additional stress to the rod bearings (around 10-12%).


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## S3.2 (Sep 19, 2009)

I've never heard anyone run boost on a VR with the OEM aluminium bearings. I also think you should change them. 
HGP changes them even on their 1st stage while they have a 600Hp stage with a HG spacer + studs, no problem 
Question:
Where is the blue hose going from the IC->TB pipe just before the TB?


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

S3.2 said:


> I've never heard anyone run boost on a VR with the OEM aluminium bearings. I also think you should change them.


See there's the debate, most people say nah you'll be fine then I hear the odd person here n there saying I def should. 

I guess they are easy enough to access tho.... I can get at them underneath by removing the oil pan + pump ya? If it's that easy I'd think it would be pure lazyness if I didn't. 

If I were to replace the bearings should I grab OEM, coated, or another type? (Audi RS4's for example?) Would replacing the rod bolts with ARP's also be advisable while I'm there?



S3.2 said:


> Question:
> Where is the blue hose going from the IC->TB pipe just before the TB?


connected to the DV - that's another thing - I have a Bosch DV now, at what HP / boost level should I upgrade? Forge 008 or... ?


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Probably 98%+ of builds on here are on OEM bearings. And HGP is only promoting 'enhanced' bearings, meaning coated. Nothing radical.

The next question will be should I upgrade my rod bolts to ARP and do I need to resize the big end if I do. That's more of a debate than bearings and poses greater risk.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

I'm going to use VR 3.6 FSI OEM rod bearings on my 12V VR6. They look like are coated or some special material is used. Very cheap through VW dealer - about 12 euro per con rod (2 shells)


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## spitfire481 (Mar 21, 2007)

never seen rod bearings fail, pistion/ring were the first to let go. stock (junkyard) motors and 500+ whp.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

alright so I'm gathering (generally speaking of course) that my OE rod bearings should be fine till about 400hp or so, but they are easy enough to get at and replace if it bothers me and I want peace of mind.

I've got another slight issue now tho - hopefully someone can help me narrow it down.

my brakes shake the car a lot under harder braking, and on two occasions the motor died under hard braking. I've also noticed that when I stop at a light the idle hovers around ~1k RPM and after I release the brake it settles down to ~8/9k RPM (idle) - so I'm thinking some boost is creeping into the brake booster? Does the brake booster come with an OEM check valve (somewhere I can't see?) or should I add one in? Where's the best place to get one - the stealer? Or do I have a different problem entirely....  (brake booster is connected to it's own dedicated port on the short runner with no check valve right now)


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

you definitely need a check valve


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

yeah definitely was the problem. installed a check valve my buddy had laying around, it runs much better.

I'm a tad confused on the subject of rod bolts... ARP specifically

I see basically 50/50 opinions on resizing the rods for the ARP bolts - half the opinions I see are "drop them in, torque them 3 times and you're good, no machining necessary", and the other half say that you must pull and machine the rods for ARP bolts or suffer a catastrophic failure

anyone have any actual experience??? If I can replace the bolts with the rods in the car and I don't have to machine them I'd probably do it.... otherwise if machining is definitely necessary could I just replace the bolts with OEM while the rods are in the car? (while changing the bearings, if I end up doing it)


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

not sure about 24v, but my 12v bottom end is stock and was @ 180,000km when i boosted it, still going strong 60,000km later. 

:beer:


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

Just put the bolts in. Ive personally done it in 2 motors and have 4 friends that have done it with no problems.

[email protected] aftermarket BS rod bearing/coated ****. Why do people aways want to change things that work fine?


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

I always used the OEM rod bearing and OEM main bearings, I never had any problem, as far as i know, I think everyone use the VW OEM bearing.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

zwogti said:


> I always used the OEM rod bearing and OEM main bearings, I never had any problem, as far as i know, I think everyone use the VW OEM bearing.


Correct.
Stock bearings, NO problems and are certainly not a vulnerability in a VR build.




05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Just put the bolts in. Ive personally done it in 2 motors and have 4 friends that have done it with no problems.


Never had an issue doing it this way... and done so several times. :thumbup:





S3.2 said:


> I've *never heard anyone run boost on a VR with the OEM aluminium bearings.* I also think you should change them.
> HGP changes them even on their 1st stage while they have a 600Hp stage with a HG spacer + studs, no problem


Oh really now? Hang around the Forced Induction Forum much?


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> [*]There's a bit of clutch chatter when I engage gears. I feel it the most in 1st gear when I begin moving, but I also feel the "chatter" a little bit in low RPM (1-3k) in gears 2-6. After 3k RPM it feels fine, and if I shift fast I hardly feel it happening at all.


My car also does this and was curious as to peoples opinions on it? I only feel it in first gear when starting off from a stop, feathering the clutch. I thought it was just excess vibration from the VF Engineering motor mounts, but maybe it could be clutch chatter? I've heard bad things about Spec clutches, I'm running the Spec stage 3+ with stock lightened flywheel. It seems to be holding the power fine and all round feels great except when doing standing starts (not launches, just regularly). Thoughts?


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

R32Smoker said:


> My car also does this and was curious as to peoples opinions on it? I only feel it in first gear when starting off from a stop, feathering the clutch. I thought it was just excess vibration from the VF Engineering motor mounts, but maybe it could be clutch chatter? I've heard bad things about Spec clutches, I'm running the Spec stage 3+ with stock lightened flywheel. It seems to be holding the power fine and all round feels great except when doing standing starts (not launches, just regularly). Thoughts?



Me too. F'n Killin me. supposedly chatter is most often associated with clutch contamination, but can just as easily be mechanical, so mounts are definitely something to look at. Personally I think VFs are ass. You need energy dissipation in a mount, not energy storage and return That's what poly does. Has no place on a car imho. Problem is it is very hard to tell poking around with poly because they can be bolted up and shimmed/washered real firm and still act like a spring. Actually, the tighter you get them the more violent they can be. Another thing; I never knew if the passenger mount was supposed to go in with the stock donut in the lower chamber. That might be a common problem because I don't think you can get that part in without lifting the motor a bit so maybe that is something people omit to save effort, possibly thinking to eliminate all stock parts. I am not informed about it. Anyway, they are going bye bye on my car for sure.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

bump for the clutch chatter issue - is this just something common that everyone has to put up with?

Torque steer - I never felt anything at all prior to boosting, and now I have a lot of movement even if I slightly accelerate, or if I let off the gas abruptly. When accelerating it feels like it pulls to the right a bit, and when I let off the gas it pulls to the left. Does that sound like torque steer? (Never dealt with FWD / torque steer before - but I assume it is giving the different lengths of the drive shafts and which way it pulls)

And - when I brake the car shakes.... pretty hard - and on a few occasions the motor cut out when braking. What could cause this? Even if I brake steady and slow it still shakes the car quite a bit.

How can I tell if my tie rods and control arm bushings are ok? Would it be visually obvious?

thnx


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

If your car goes in different directions accelerating and decelerating then it's suspension/motor mounts/subframe bushings, but mostly suspension. If you have old CA bushing or any poly bushings replace them with the R32 ones (best way to go) both forward and aft ones on the front control arms, but the rear is more important. Ball joints are cheap so do them as well if they are sloppy. Would like to hear input on the clutch issue as well.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> bump for the clutch chatter issue - is this just something common that everyone has to put up with?


Not really, I have a clutchmasters fx400 with an 11lb aluminum flywheel in my 24v VRT and it doesn't really make a sound. It chatters a little bit if I turn the A/C on at idle, but it's pretty much silent otherwise. No can believe that, or how smooth it is engaging.

There is a bit of chatter when rolling around in like 1st gear through a parking lot as well, but again...really nothing crazy at all.

You can also see the control arm bushings with the car in the air, if they're cracked or deformed it's easily visible.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> Not really, I have a clutchmasters fx400 with an 11lb aluminum flywheel in my 24v VRT and it doesn't really make a sound.


 does the aluminum flywheel feel alright in your VRT ? Any rattle?


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

From what I understand, you don't really need or want a lightweight flywheel with a turbo. 

Also, the factory bottom end can withstand a lot of hp. 

Some more food for thought...I _correctly_ installed _new_ oem head bolts when I installed a headspacer. I asked around and you don't need arp unless you plan of pulling the head off more than two times or are in need of serious clamping force.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

'dubber said:


> From what I understand, you don't really need or want a lightweight flywheel with a turbo.
> 
> Also, the factory bottom end can withstand a lot of hp.
> 
> Some more food for thought...I _correctly_ installed _new_ oem head bolts when I installed a headspacer. I asked around and you don't need arp unless you plan of pulling the head off more than two times or are in need of serious clamping force.


 X2 on the stock headbolts, thats what I run with my H/S.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> does the aluminum flywheel feel alright in your VRT ? Any rattle?


 not really. I heard that I was going to hate my life with an aluminum flywheel but it's easier to drive than my friend's 1.8t, no lie. It's also pretty damn quiet. Everyone was telling me that people were going to be asking if my car was broken and that it would be so loud but it's been awesome, and relatively quiet. 

I'll see if I can snap a video for you later today.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

my clutch (or so I thought) bit the dust a couple days ago... so I dropped the tranny and found my throwout bearing went to hell again.... I replaced it with a new one during the turbo build. The original damaged bearing / slave cylinder looked the same as it does now: 



















Is there anything special I should know about replacing the slave cylinder? I basically cleaned up the bell housing and bolted it in. Should I have done something else? 

And the clutch (OE dual mass fw, which I suspect may need a re-surfacing): 










Would clutch contamination lead to throwout bearing failure? Some fluid may have gotten in there, but it looked alright so I left it in considering I didn't have enough $ for a clutch at the time. 

But what would cause the throwout bearing / slave cylinder to die like that? The new slave cylinder only had 4000 km's or so on it. This has happened twice now with the Clutchmasters FX100 that I have in there now. Ideas? 

While I have the tranny down though I think I'm gonna grab an FX400 and single mass fw.... the FX100 can't hold the torque I'm throwing down now. Would that solve my issues?


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's a video of the clutch at idle. 

The car's really alot louder on on camera than in person for some reason, but you can see I have to get really close to the transmission before the microphone even starts to pick up on the chatter. It's insignificant. Especially when I originally was hearing that it was going to be incredibly loud from other people. I don't know if it has to do with my style of driving, or how I broke it in but it's been great since day 1. 

[video]http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/dannyxpastime/?action=view&current=IMG_0371.mp4[/video]


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

If you put ARP rod bolts in the rods absolutely should be resized or they most definitely will be out of round. :thumbup:


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> If you put ARP rod bolts in the rods absolutely should be resized or they most definitely will be out of round. :thumbup:


 Out of round rods must make alot of power then!


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Out of round rods must make alot of power then!


 stop giving away secrets timmy. oh wait nevermind. no ones going to listen to you.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

what about OEM rod bolts? if I were to replace / upgrade the rod bearings by accessing them via the oil pan underneath would OEM rod bolts still cause the rods to be out of round?


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> what about OEM rod bolts? if I were to replace / upgrade the rod bearings by accessing them via the oil pan underneath would OEM rod bolts still cause the rods to be out of round?



OEM rod bolts are a know weak factor. I would upgrade to ARP's before you think about doing any BS with bearings.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> OEM rod bolts are a know weak factor. I would upgrade to ARP's before you think about doing any BS with bearings.


which apparently means I'd have to take the rods out - which in turn means I have to drop the bottom end. I dunno what to do!!!!! Why is there such a difference in opinion on the subject?

What's the final frikkin verdict? ARP rod bolts on a 24v - replace at will or is pulling rods def necessary??? Or just stop worrying and leave it (running max 15 psi race / 8 psi daily)? The only reason why I'm stressing is because the motor has 210,000 km's on it now... and I've upgraded pretty much everything else cuz of the mileage...... :banghead:


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> which apparently means I'd have to take the rods out - which in turn means I have to drop the bottom end. I dunno what to do!!!!! Why is there such a difference in opinion on the subject?
> 
> What's the final frikkin verdict? ARP rod bolts on a 24v - replace at will or is pulling rods def necessary??? Or just stop worrying and leave it (running max 15 psi race / 8 psi daily)? The only reason why I'm stressing is because the motor has 210,000 km's on it now... and I've upgraded pretty much everything else cuz of the mileage...... :banghead:



Your making this really hard on yourself. Leave it or slap ARP's in....its not that complicated. Don't pull the rods out.


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

If it helps at all, I spoke to several different (reputable) machinists and engine builders on the matter of ARP rod bolts/resizing. Basically rod clearances are measured in 1000ths of an inch, so what seems like a simple bolt replacement actually twists the cap on a very minute scale, having it not sit perfectly flat. This can wear the bearings/rod/crank journals incorrectly over time and lead to catastrophic failure. 

You CAN replace the bolts w/o resizing, but it becomes more of a longevity issue. guys who drag race and/or don't put a ton of miles on the car wont see immediate failure, however i wouldn't slap rod bolts in and expect to get another 20-50k out of the engine, the wear issue WILL eventually catch up with you. I am not a machinist or engine builder so take this with a grain of salt, just repeating my findings based on a little research. 

This is why general consensus is 50/50 on the subject. There are guys who did it w/ no ill effect for years, then there are guys who did it and tossed a rod the next day. Im sure it depends on wear characteristics per individual motor, installation etc. 

Its cheap to line bore a set of rods, but it requires a bit of work in getting them out of the motor as im sure you know. Being this is the case, I have a set of arp's sitting on my desk still in the package. I figure my motor is running fine at 500+/- whp on oem hardware for 2 yrs, so if it aint broke.... 

Good luck:thumbup:


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

I think for now I'm gonna leave it. I've been taking a lot of preventative measures because of the higher mileage but dropping the bottom end on my daily right now to have the rods / bearings / bolts done 100% right just isn't an option - and replacing the bolts with ARP while the rods are in the car seems to be a 50/50 bet (which is something I'm generally not comfortable with).

I have the bolts already, and the bearings aren't hard to find if a problem arises. I figure if something bites the dust and I have the bottom end down anyway I'll build it.

I just hope I'll be alright for a couple years until I can grab a TDI / A4 or somethin so the VRT becomes a toy / stress relief / escape from the gf in the garage type deal.

thnx every1 I really appreciate the input


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## cstanley19 (Sep 23, 2006)

Dasbeast is definitely a smart dude and has a monster car. The thing is absolutely insane. I also have stock internals and have hammered on my vrt which has roughly 350whp (estimate) at about 18lbs, with no issues. I run 15lbs for the most part but needless to say it's still probably at about 320whp. Just leave it until it becomes the toy. Then build it big.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

so my clutch already bit the dust... and I'm in the process of replacing it. I also grabbed a lighter flywheel while I was in there - but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with the black piece below (in the centre of the flywheel):










It doesn't match up to any holes on the flywheel... and I definitely don't want to drop my 02m any time soon again so I stopped doing anything until someone can let me know what to do with it. :what:


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

Thats not for a VW. Honda's have 8 bolts.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Thats not for a VW. Honda's have 8 bolts.


so just forget the plate and bolt it up?


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