# "Children of a lesser God"???



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

Ok VW, here's what most of us 03ers and 04ers did for you:
We paid a lot of money for your first ever 4x4 SUV trusting your name, we put the Treg on the globe's roads giving you the best promotion ever, we helped you solve the Treg's problems with feed back info, testing in real driving conditions and patience.
We may have complained a little or a lot but here we are still, driving them around, showing them off and giving you more 05 sales of the Treg around the globe.
So try to say THANK YOU to all of us V6ers and V8ers pioneers by GIVING US NOW the 05 engine hp upgrade.
I bet it's only ANOTHER software jinx that costs nothing to you and will not make your first Tregs look like "children of a lesser God"...and a pepper.!
P.S.: VORTEXERS, put some pressure on your dealers and VWoA. Maybe it'll work....


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## Corradodrvrfnd (Feb 15, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

Good luck. I believe the upgrade in horsepower is more than just a software upgrade, iirc.


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## Vega (Jul 28, 2004)

Huh?


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## bravocharlie (Nov 14, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

Um, there is no such thing as an '03 Touareg. 2004 was the first model year.


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## jmferra (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Corradodrvrfnd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradodrvrfnd* »_Good luck. I believe the upgrade in horsepower is more than just a software upgrade, iirc.

I'm even wondering if this is nothing more than 'playing with numbers.'
That is, the '04 V6 HP rating is conservative, the '05 rating is overly generous.


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## Jason H (Dec 6, 1999)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_to all of us V6ers and V8ers pioneers by GIVING US NOW the 05 engine hp upgrade.

Sorry, but what V8 hp upgrade are you talking about?


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## Corradodrvrfnd (Feb 15, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (bravocharlie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bravocharlie* »_Um, there is no such thing as an '03 Touareg. 2004 was the first model year.























note he is located in greece.








I have driven a V6 2005 and I assure you it is more powerful than the 2004.


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## leebo (Dec 17, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (bravocharlie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bravocharlie* »_Um, there is no such thing as an '03 Touareg. 2004 was the first model year...

I thought there was an '03 model year in Europe?


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## TregOH (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

As I understand it, the 04 V6 horsepower was limited to 220 by agreement with Porsche. I suspect that it would violate that agreement for VW to now up the hp of those cars.
(I think the agreement was something like: VW would limit the HP to 220 on the V6 for the first X months where X is an integer in (10..20). Sorry, I don't recall the exact value of X.)


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (leebo)*

Right, in Europe there is an 03 model, this is where it all started from.. Same specs as an 04 though, nothing different. My VIN is 11***.
The VW-Porche agreement is over and all 05 models come with more hp: 241hp for V6 and 335hp for V8. I think it's only software map changes that we should ask and have, if they only want to be fair to us... The original cut of engine power was only a marketing thing for helping Porche sales, as the Pepper and the Treg are the same in everything else..., apart from the Treg looking smarter, of course.! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

I'm not bashing you but I don't believe the 05 V-8s have 335 hp. If they did I think everyone here whould know. Do you have any documetation?


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## Corradodrvrfnd (Feb 15, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (trollhole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trollhole* »_I'm not bashing you but I don't believe the 05 V-8s have 335 hp. If they did I think everyone here whould know. Do you have any documetation?









The technical specs sheet still lists the V8 horsepower at 310 for 2005 models.


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Corradodrvrfnd)*

I think it's a fantastic idea. I am not so sure that it will ever materialize, but fantastic none-the-less. 
Side note, a friend of mine specs out racing engines for McLaren, his opinion is that ONLY a software upgrade will generally yield 6-8hp. The only question mark here is, did VW dial back our engines from the start???? If it is running at optimal conditions, then messing with ONLY the tuning might make a few more ponies. If they were capped, then uncapping them should be a fair request, in my "biased-V6-owning" opinion.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Corradodrvrfnd)*

U R right... Checking again with the dealership there is no more hp for the 05 V8, still 310hp on 05 specs, although the initial info was that it would be one too.
The V6 241hp is a fact for 05 models, so I guess we V6ers would have to fight it alone...
They did cup this engine at the beginning for reasons already stated and now they unpluged it, so we better ask for the new mapping too...


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## watson007 (Oct 16, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (leebo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebo* »_I thought there was an '03 model year in Europe?

There was.


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## watson007 (Oct 16, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

Frankly, if they are going to do something nice for us first geners they should make sure that the new DVD based NAV system can be retrofitted into 04' Touaregs with NAV. Then they should give us a nice trade-in for upgrading to the DVD NAV.


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

I think, that if VW screwed us and just did a software downstep, on the V-6's HP - it is morally and ethically wrong, perhaps even legally.
Because, they did us a huge disfavor by artifically dropping prices on our used V6 T-Regs...all to meet their conractual obligations to an outside partner Porsche...and we were the duped customers. I know they declared 220HP and we bought it, but a good lawyer can find some grounds for a class-action. 
They would rather do the software fix than pay!
Cy


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## Nav400 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cybulman* »_I think, that if VW screwed us and just did a software downstep, on the V-6's HP - it is morally and ethically wrong, perhaps even legally.
Because, they did us a huge disfavor by artifically dropping prices on our used V6 T-Regs...all to meet their conractual obligations to an outside partner Porsche...and we were the duped customers. I know they declared 220HP and we bought it, but a good lawyer can find some grounds for a class-action. 
They would rather do the software fix than pay!
Cy

ZZZZ..Sorry I fell asleep. I don't think a lawyer is going to help anyone too much. It not illegal/unethical or even uncommon to offer more horsepower in different year car models..No matter what the reason. Moreover, they have nothing to do with the used car values; the market dictates that; in fact the higher the used car resale the better it is for VW.
Everyone should relax and just realize that got what you bought. In 2006 if the Touareg becomes amphibious and floats then I bet the 2005 buyers will be sorry.... then us '04 V6ers will have somehting to laugh about....http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*

Quite true, we all knew that it was 220hp. If it is as simple as retuning, then it will be available soon enough. The aftermarket companies are pretty good at jumping on this kind of thing. I would gladly pay to have my TReg reprogrammed to hit 241hp. It would be nice to get the programming for free, but I've learned to not hold my breath.


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*

You should fall asleep forever, for the type of attitude you have to other posters opinions.
Did you even read what I wrote...before you fell asleep?
Strong consumer actions are vital to these companies not screwing consumers who are awake.
Do no take thngs lying down like a patsy...WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE!
Cy


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## aircooled (Jul 30, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nav400* »_In 2006 if the Touareg becomes amphibious and floats then I bet the 2005 buyers will be sorry

If it goes fast enough to pull a water-skier, then I guess I'll have to trade up.








Cy, I hear you, but I really don't think that VW will make the change for earlier vehicles.
Also, while you could take them to court over this in a class actions lawsuit, do you really think that you will benefit? I know that trail lawyer will. No, class actions lawsuits are one of the many problems that we have with the legal system today. Even if you stared such a lawsuit, I would not participate.
If this HP thing bothers you or anyone else that much, I suggest that you vote with your pocketbook when it comes to your next VW purchase or service. That is something EVERY corporation will feel. If it is truly an ECU programming thing, that an aftermarket tuner will find it and come out with a mod for it. It will be FAR cheaper than legal fees.
My $0.02 .


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## Nav400 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cybulman* »_You should fall asleep forever, for the type of attitude you have to other posters opinions.
Did you even read what I wrote...before you fell asleep?
Strong consumer actions are vital to these companies not screwing consumers who are awake.
Do no take thngs lying down like a patsy...WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE!
Cy

Sorry, it was just a brief nap.
I know we are getting off of the subject now...But since you purchased the 220 hp version, and now they have a 240 hp versions (for whatever the reason) they should give you the newer version for free because??? And if they don't you'll sue??? 
I am assuming you were awake when you read your brochure saying the the V6 had 220 hp. Review that brochure again and read the fine print; I don't think you'll find a clause where they say they won't increase the horsepower of the engine in the future. This happens all of the time, it seems that almost every year a model gets improvements. 
"WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE"--Don't know if you noticed but Starbucks just increased the prices on all of their coffee drinks--same coffee but apparently at $3.35 per cup they weren't making enough $$$-After your lawyers are done with VW, I think you should sick them on these guys.
And that "you should fall asleep forever" comment hurt my feelings--Its Friday have a heart.



_Modified by Nav400 at 10:57 PM 10-22-2004_


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*

Does anyone have any ideas where to begin researching how to re-tune a Touareg? Maybe this is something we can do ourselves with a laptop and special cable or something. 
I'm sure this post will get a chuckle from some of you. Who in their right mind would tackle the electrical system of a very complex vehicle as their first project??????? I'd be willing to bet that I am not alone.


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## vwincident (Jul 3, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

This thread should be called "Children of a lesser Horse Power"


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## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (watson007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *watson007* »_Frankly, if they are going to do something nice for us first geners they should make sure that the new DVD based NAV system can be retrofitted into 04' Touaregs with NAV. Then they should give us a nice trade-in for upgrading to the DVD NAV.

Yeah, well, unless you have a V6 and no nav.


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## sciencegeek (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tinglywuwu* »_I'm sure this thread will get a chuckle from some of you.

>chuckle<


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*

Sorry guys, away for the weekend...
It is not a matter of a legal action, we want a solution now and not get lost in "objections" and "overules"..
The Treg V6 engine is the same as used in other VW models, where it yields 250 hp.
It is true that they downstepped it to help Cayenne V6 sales and now that this deal is off the same engine is boosted with another 21hp, just one year after the introduction of the Treg. Same engine, same car, just software remapping close to the original set up of this V6 engine.
I don't think we should wait for a tuner to ask for our money to get it, VW must feel they owe it to us and just offer it as a kind gesture...


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*

...Talking about market values?? It is not so common for a company like VW to increase the hp of an engine just 12 months after the introduction of a new model. No changes in engine or car designation..
I mean it is not a Treg S with more hp, right??
So when it time to sell or trade in your used 04 V6 shouldn't you expect a downplay in its value just because of the less powerfull engine and not just its age and mileage??


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## jmferra (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_The Treg V6 engine is the same as used in other VW models, where it yields 250 hp.


Are you ABSOLUTELY sure of this? How can I validate this claim - from another reliable source?


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jmferra)*

In Europe there is a Phaeton V6... Same engine, different ECU, specs at 250 hp...


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_In Europe there is a Phaeton V6... Same engine, different ECU, specs at 250 hp...

That is the 2007 Touareg engine.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (spockcat)*

This should have been the 2003 engine if Peppers was not a problem in the market.
We have a Cayenne V6 in Europe with 250hp. 
Our engine with just Pepper shirting and without the software jinx...


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

Question then....
Could I take my Treg to a Porsche dealer and get the Cayenne software to gain the extra HP that you are referring to????? (Assuming that they would be willing to actually do it, that is.)


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

We should vote this to be "Joke of the Forum 2004"...
Even if they could, do you thing they would do that or try to sell you a Pepper V6 or better still a V8??


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (aircooled)*

Thanks aircooled I fully understand and agree with your $0.02!
I have definitely not voted for the trial lawyer in early voting!








I am against all class action lawsuits that benefit only trial lawyers but sometimes just the threat of costly legal actiosn can spur a cmny to make the fix.
To the other poster who went for a small nap... I did not ask for a new engine...all I said was - if it was just a software re-flash fix or chip....they should do it...or tell us how to. Also, I avoid Starbucks like the plague...it's cheap, overpriced, coffee for wannabees...I prefer my own Jamaican Blue Mountain brewed in my Krups ProArome.








Cy


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

What I was getting at was that if the programming exists, there will be ways to get a hold of it. 
It would be nice if VW just gave us the new programming, but look at all of the changes to the Touareg in its first year of production. I would LOVE to have the new style rear cup holders, but I don't expect them to show up on my doorstep. I bought the Touareg figuring that there would be some upgrades for it down the road, engine management being one of them. 
In the words of Chris Rock " You go to a restaurant, you're accustom to eatin'. You leave, you aint eatin' no more. They don't owe you a steak."
Maybe I'll go the Porsche dealer today and see if they can make me a Por-wagen Cay-reg.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

According to Ross-Tech, Cayenne and Touareg computers are not the same. I have been told you cannot use a VAGCOM on a Cayenne. I doubt you will get anywhere with you Porsche dealer (except having them try to sell you a Cayenne) but good luck anyway.


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (spockcat)*

Spock,
I figured as much. I was just trying to make a point that I am sure that the upgrade, if at all possible, will be made available at some point and that we will most likely have to pay for it. 
Do you know what sort of interface is required to "talk" to the ECU? 
I would expect to get laughed off the lot if I tried to get a Porsche dealer to flash a VW ECU.


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## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_I don't think we should wait for a tuner to ask for our money to get it, VW must feel they owe it to us and just offer it as a kind gesture...

VW will never feel they owe us anything unless it is a safety concern like the rear headrest. I think you need to face the fact that VW will do nothing for you to add more hp to your V-6 when they still have an agreement with Porche to limit the 04 V-6 hp. + the labor alone along with planning , implimentation, logistics, legal and everything else would not make this a simple task. Can you imagine all the v-6 that would need to come in to get this change?


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## davsteph (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*

Here's my two copper Lincolns. 
If getting my '04 V6 to 240-250hp is merely a software/re-map/chip fix, I'd gladly pay for it if it is reasonbly priced. I don't know if it is.
Anyone familiar with a Chevy 350? You could one in an Impala SS with about 220hp, a truck with 245hp, a Camaro with 230-240, a Z-28 with 285 or a Vette with 300+. Same bokc and basic enigne, much different numbers. Granted, this came from intake/exhaust manifold differences, cam differences, carb and fuel injection differences. BUT, this is bascially the same engine. Now VW is claiming near those kind of hp differences so it might just be electronic.


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## davsteph (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (davsteph)*


_Quote, originally posted by *davsteph* »_ Same bokc and basic enigne, much different numbers. Granted, this came from intake/exhaust manifold differences, cam differences, carb and fuel injection differences. BUT, this is bascially the same engine. Now VW is claiming near those kind of hp differences so it might just be electronic.









Oops, my bad. Should say same BLOCK, and VW is Not claiming nearthose kind of HP differences.
Sorry


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (trollhole)*

Well, all these V6s had to come in for other reasons too (flashes, TSBs etc), so one more time for something like an engine unplugging now the deal with Porche is off would only rate VW as "top".
They could either do it when the car goes in for a scheduled service at free of charge or in case we get impatient and want to do it upon available they could charge us for workshop time. ECU remapping is nothing more than a couple of hours max...
A lot of us have started asking our dealers for it over here..
Some pressure from you guys over there would do us all some good..


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## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

I wish you good luck and who knows maybe it will come true. But I would think the agreement between VW and Porche is still there and they would be really upset if VW started reprograming 04s to add more hp especially since there are some still out there. But I can promise you there will be aftermarket applications that do this.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (trollhole)*

The agreement is over, that's why they could unplug the 05 V6.
The agreement intented to boost Cayenne 04 sales, now there are no more 04 sales to be done, no more agreement, the whole thing served its purpose, so if we ask we may get...


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

I'm going in for service early next week. I will ask about it then. You are right, it never hurts to ask, but I think I know what they will say.
I'll ring back on this next week, after I ask.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

...and give them all the arguments you can think of... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TregOH (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_The agreement is over, that's why they could unplug the 05 V6.


Are you sure that is how the agreement works? I think that would provide a giant loophole. In other words, once it is known that when the agreement is over VW will program customer's V6s to have 240 HP then from the Porsche perspective it might was well never have existed. People would buy the VW, bide their time and get the higher HP. I'd bet the agreement says that VW can never tune the 04 to have more than 220 HP. At least I'd be sure that is how the Porsche lawyers interpret it.


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (TregOH)*

IF the agreement is over - then screw the Porsche lawyers and let's get a chip or re-flash or whatever the hell for the extra HP.
I observed that all the detractors against our claims were V8 owners. 
"HOW CONVENIENT!...must be Satan" - Like the SNL Church lady used to say.
Cy


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## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

Your right we all do own V-8s but if porsche offered a 340 hp version of our engine I wouldn't be going to VW demanding they upgrade my engine. I would look aftermarket for the upgrade. I wish all you v6 04ers luck. You never know what VW might do.


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## Nav400 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cybulman* »_
I observed that all the detractors against our claims were V8 owners. 
Cy

Not all...I am currently a '04 V6er....and 20 hp nothing "I should had a V8".


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*

Nav400 - You would not want a reflash or chip for the extra HP?
Cy


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## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: (trollhole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trollhole* »_Your right we all do own V-8s but if porsche offered a 340 hp version of our engine I wouldn't be going to VW demanding they upgrade my engine. I would look aftermarket for the upgrade. I wish all you v6 04ers luck. You never know what VW might do.

I would certainly never _demand_ an upgrade for the 20hp. But if it were available from VW without risking warranty issues, and for a reasonable price (right now I'm thinking $0.00 is reasonable







, but I'm flexible) then I would certainly consider it, and appreciate the opportunity.


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## Nav400 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cybulman* »_Nav400 - You would not want a reflash or chip for the extra HP?
Cy

Of course I would, but I don't expect VW to give it to me which was the premise of this thread. The unforunate truth is they already have me and my money in a 220 hp version. Anything above that would and should cost more money--that's just business. I have no hard feelings against VW for that. 
Now for the flames...**One disclosure I have to make though is that VW is replacing my 2004 Touareg V6 with a 2005 V6 due to a quality issue so I am getting an '05 shortly** Of course I am happy about gaining a newer model year for "free" however I can promise you that I have given little thought to the extra horsepower. I just don't feel that the difference between 220 hp and 240 hp in a 5,000+lbs vehicle will be that dramatic. This replacement does not effect my opinions above.


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## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Nav400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nav400* »_... I just don't feel that the difference between 220 hp and 240 hp in a 5,000+lbs vehicle will be that dramatic. This replacement does not effect my opinions above.

But please do report on your perceptions with the extra 20hp once you get the new TReg. All of us 04 V6'ers will want to know from someone who has serious road time with both.
And congrats on your trade-up.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (TregOH)*

Since the agreement is over what difference does it make to Porche not allowing VW to retune the 04 V6s?? 04 sales are over and the difference between 05 Treg and Cayenne V6s is just 9hp from 30hp it used to be in 04.They should be more concerned about justifying the 05 price tag difference between the two with just a mere 9hp difference and everything else in both cars being the same, apart from the looks and the badge...


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (4x4s)*

I think will take him some time till he "breaks in" the new engine and be able to tell the difference, which will be noticeable even for a heavy SUV like ours... Still we would all like to hear about it..
In the meantime check the 05 V6 engine specs against the 04 V6 and you'll realize that it's not just the hp, torque matters too...


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (4x4s)*

I think that final extra 20HP will make a HUUUUGE difference.
My V6 has quite good pep, when driven properly and with use of the Tiptronic or in S mode when you need it....but all I'm saying again to others is - If it is just a reflash and VW can do it they should! 
But, I am not averse to paying $100-150- even 200 for a new chip - if that is needed.
4x4 you have it right!
Cy


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## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cybulman* »_I think that final extra 20HP will make a HUUUUGE difference.
My V6 has quite good pep, when driven properly and with use of the Tiptronic or in S mode when you need it....but all I'm saying again to others is - If it is just a reflash and VW can do it they should! 
But, I am not averse to paying $100-150- even 200 for a new chip - if that is needed.
4x4 you have it right!
Cy 

Thanks Cy. My biggest concern would be with warranty coverage. I don't feel comfortable playing games with a third party reflash, even if I can back it out and recover when I need to go for service. If there is not a VW sanctioned way, then I would have to wait until the warranty has expired before I mess with it. But that's just me.
BTW: Congrats on your 1000th post Cy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (4x4s)*

Woe is meeeeee....1000th post and I did not even know that. 
My wife thinks I have joined an evil Toerag cult. Anyway, I am nowhere near Spock, Slot, Leweb, Bao and others - so that gives me solace.
OK, I am not at all advocating a third party chip or reflash - all OEM and VWOA authorised stuff only!
Thanks,
Cy


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## chickdr (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cybulman* »_I think that final extra 20HP will make a HUUUUGE difference.
Cy 

A huge difference eh. You do realize the 20hp jump amounts to a 9% increase? Pounds/hp is down from 23 to 21.2. Torque is up even less- 4ft/lb or less than 2%. With the weight of the T-reg - the difference isn't even worth talking about- except from a marketing standpoint. 
But good luck anyway!!!


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## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (chickdr)*

For the cost though (This is a HUGE assumption that it will be about $200-400) what other mod can be done to gain 20hp??? This is probably our best bet for better performance. I am not saying that it will rival the V8 and I know that it is a heavy vehicle, but 9% is actually a very good gain for single upgrade. I realize that the torque will not be affected as much, but what is the alternative? Any engine component swap probably will not help out much. The turbo system that is floating around runs $5k plus brings up HUGE reliability concerns. 
We are, however, debating on a ficticious item here. Something that may never materialize. Not worth losing sleep over. 














crocodile


----------



## TregOH (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_Since the agreement is over what difference does it make to Porche not allowing VW to retune the 04 V6s?? 

I don't claim to know what Porsche is concerned about. I'm simply saying that the agreement would be worthless if VW was now allowed to up the hp of the 04s. Consider this scenario:
Potential Buyer: I really like this V6 Treg but the Porsche has more power.
Saleman: That's true but the Porsche is a lot more money.
PB: But I'd really like more power.
Salesman: I'm not supposed to tell you this but if you bring your car back in a year we'll bump it up to 240 ponies. That's the same as the Porsche. We have an agreement with them but it expires when the 05s come in. If you mention this to anyone I'll deny we ever met.
It's just too big a loophole. The agreement wouldn't make any sense. I have no vested interest here. I wish you luck. I just wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.


----------



## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

Hi crocodile...I agree 9% might just put this V6 over the top, to get that little added boost.
Like if you have $920,000 in the bank - then 9% more will make you a MILLIONNAIRE!








Cy


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (TregOH)*

And now it's time for a real conversation that took place 11 months ago, when I was buying my Treg.
I asked my dealer why the Treg V6 was at 220hp, when the Phaeton V6 having the same engine was at 250 hp.
The answer was that "the ECU was remapped to match better the needs of the SUV"
When I asked him why these "reasons" don't apply to the Cayenne V6, rated at 250hp, there was of course silence..
It's quite obvious that if the power cut was done for "matching better the needs of the SUV", VW would not have come out with 241hp one year later on the same SUV.
Of course when we were all buying our Tregs would make absolutely no sense to ask any salesman if 12 months later the same car would come with more power or if we could upgrade our engines.Do you know of any other VW model that gets a 10% hp increase on the same engine and same model designation just 12 months after the launch of the model???


----------



## Phagus (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

2001.5 Passat. came out with 150 HP originally (turbo 4). In less than a year it became 170HP. The same engine in Audi from the very beginning was making 190HP.
VOAG has a tendency to screw up first year buyers.










_Modified by ****us at 1:01 PM 10-29-2004_


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (****us)*


_Quote, originally posted by *****us* »_VOAG has a tendency to screw up first year buyers.










It isn't just VW. Lots of car companies come out with "improvements" on their cars as the model gets older. If they didn't, no one would bother to buy a new car until their old one wore out. It usually takes 2 or 3 model years before the "sports" versions of anything comes out. But you know that when the car is originally designed, the "sports" pacakges are penned at the same time.


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (spockcat)*

"It usually takes 2 or 3 model years before the "sports" versions of anything comes out."
That's ok... But the 05 V6 Treg is not a 2 or 3 models later version and I don't see any S, GT or any other designation after the V6 to suggest that this is a "sport" version..
It's exactly the same version as the 04 V6....So why the extra hp, if not only to make us early buyers





















??


----------



## Corradodrvrfnd (Feb 15, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

it's pretty simple logic, actually.
The Touareg is well priced for the market, however, sales of the V6 have been less then expected (VW originally expected to sell 2x as many V6's as V8's).
The biggest complaint is the power of the V6. It was just a little underpowered and most people ended up stepping up to the V8, or going elsewhere (BMW). The price obviously wasn't an issue.
Usually, VW ups the power two to three model years in. None of our engines are pushed near their limits of power and performance. In this case, the power was necessary to compete in the V6 market.


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Corradodrvrfnd)*

So a lot more reasons for VW to correct their initial fouls...
UNPLUG the 04 V6 engine and say "Sorry,..."


----------



## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

lol.


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (trollhole)*

What's up? Looking for a lol.lipop???


----------



## mml7 (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (****us)*


_Quote, originally posted by *****us* »_2001.5 Passat. came out with 150 HP originally (turbo 4). In less than a year it became 170HP. The same engine in Audi from the very beginning was making 190HP.
_Modified by ****us at 1:01 PM 10-29-2004_

The 20V 1.8T in the Audi A4 started out at 150HP and was increased to 170HP in ~2002. The '05 A4 is still running at 170HP. The B7 next year will be at 190, but that's using the 2.0T motor. However, you can bet the farm that the 2.0T is detuned and will allow for Audi to bump up the power to well over 200HP a couple years down the line.
Remember that the Touareg V6 is a NA engine and probably isn't as easily tuneable via ECU flash as the 1.8T (or any other turbo for that matter) I personally would be very suprised to see a ~20HP increase simply due an ECU reflash. just my $.02


----------



## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (mml7)*

I am chosing this thread to continue this topic.... Not sure why I have to chose between three different threads to post on one topic.... 
Oh well. I just got back from my local VW dealership where I scheduled my 10k service and PS hose TSB. I asked the SM if it was possible to apply the '05 programming with 240hp to an '04 ECU. The reply was "We'll take care of that for you on Monday when you come in for your appointment." I then proceeded to speak with 3 other individuals there, all of which I have a first name relationship with, and I was assured that the only change to the engine from '04 to'05 was a programming upgrade and that it should be no problem to have this performed on my vehicle. I used terminology along the lines of "I would like some more power without voiding my warranty" and I got a wink and a nod from all 4 people, basically saying that I am not the first person to bring this up.
So, only time will tell if I am destined for the extra ponies, but it is certainly looking good at this point.
Side topic, while I was there, I had them apprasie my Touareg
'04 T
V6
Premium
Sound I
Bi-Xenons
9600 miles
paid $36K
They offered me $25K....... I was not very happy about that, but oh well. I guess I will be _stuck_ with my Touareg for quite some time.


----------



## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

Hmmm, I knew there was a good reason I hadn't gone for the hose recall yet. Now I know what that reason was!


----------



## chickdr (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

The only way you are going to be able to prove this is to dyno the truck *before and after* the "upgrade". I would be very surprised if this can be done as easily as the dealer is telling you.


----------



## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (chickdr)*

Well, my dyno is on the fritz again so I will just have to go by feel. 








My dealership is VERY good about letting you watch what is being done to your car, so I may just sit there while they do it. If it works, great, if not they can put it back like it is now. No harm done. 
I am not sure where your skepticism is coming from, but what is wrong with what I/we are trying to do here? I am not demanding this experiment from my dealer. I am not expecting this new software to simulate the power from two extra cylinders. I am not expecting anything. Quite honestly, I'll be surprised if I roll out of there on Monday with an extra 20 under the hood, but if what I've been told is correct, and all that changed from 04 to 05 is a software mod, then, barring a change of heart by the service manager, I don't see why it can't be done. 



_Modified by tinglywuwu at 5:54 PM 11-5-2004_


----------



## aircooled (Jul 30, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

Get someone w/ a VAG-COM to do a 'butt-dyno' (sounds nasty, doesn't it?) and do a scan for controller version numbers, etc. Compare the before and after results.


----------



## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

Disregard the naysayers...keep us posted tingly.
Cy


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

It was never more than a flash... It would be great news if they are already willing to proceed with it..
Please keep us posted on what they did with your ECU.. I'm currently expecting an answer from my dealer too, as to when they can provide the flash. Keep you posted...Looks like we may not have to write a nasty letter to them after all..


----------



## cdgmi5 (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

This is great news! Unlike my vandalism thread.


----------



## vwcrzy (Nov 26, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (aircooled)*

I will scan and post my 04 controller and version number tommorrow. Anyone with an 05?


----------



## aircooled (Jul 30, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (vwcrzy)*

From my Vag-Vom codes thread:
My 2004 V6 (220HP)
Address 01: Engine
Controller: 022 906 032 BF
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 0005
Coding: 0001133
Jim Lawyer's 2005 V6 (240HP)
Address 01: Engine
Controller: 022 906 032 FT
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6388
Coding: 0001133
Thus far, he as the only 2005 model that we have scans for.


----------



## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (aircooled)*

So it is a different component.....
I was at the dealership for three hours yesterday, the service tech was kind enough to let me play with his online manual. There appear to be two different V6 engines (BMX and BAA) also two different V8's. The tech was saying that the electrical system is so complicated that simply plugging in a new part will not work, the car will not even start, he said. He did say that it can be retuned, "but not by me (VW)." he said. He said that, due to protocol nd procedures, they are not allowed to mess with any system that is functioning to specification. He suggested to wait until an aftermarket mod was available. 
Sorry for the disappointing news, maybe someone else might have better luck.


----------



## vwincident (Jul 3, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tinglywuwu* »_I'll be surprised if I roll out of there on Monday with an extra 20 under the hood, but if what I've been told is correct, and all that changed from 04 to 05 is a software mod, then, barring a change of heart by the service manager, I don't see why it can't be done.


Any updates Tinglywuwu??


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

Don't get disappointed so easily.. It's the same Motronic ECU with different software. Of course just plugging in a 05 unit will not do the trick, as probably VW has different codes for each year and the ECU will not be recognized by the rest of e-units...(till VW reprograms it to do so).
SO, we just have to keep pressing them to do it with a flash... much simpler and easier than an aftermarket trick, that will void the warranty, no doubt...


----------



## tinglywuwu (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

It would have to come from the top down. You will be hard pressed to find a service tech that wiould risk their job to give you an extra 20HP. Personally, I'll be waiting for the aftermarket option to become available. No sense beating a dead horse.


----------



## vwincident (Jul 3, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (tinglywuwu)*

Maybe one day I'll be able/afford to buy the V8.


----------



## Bigspence (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (vwincident)*

Any more recent news on getting the V6 upgraded to the 05 240 hp.?


----------



## chickdr (Nov 28, 2003)

As I said before- ain't going to happen unless an aftermarket company wants to take your ECU and reflash it. This of course would void the warranty if VW found out...


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Bigspence)*

Not forgotten eh??
Maybe some news before Christmas, am negotiating with VWoGr about certain issues with the Treg and this is one of them..


----------



## dschlei (Nov 9, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*

And now there is light at the end of the tunnel. The December issue of "Gute Fahrt" (the German VW, Audi and Porsche magazine) features an article on tuning a 3.2 ltr Cayenne with turbocharging. the output goes somewhere to 480 plus ponies. They also do modifications to the whole drivetrain, inclusive 20" wheels, and the whole thing costs only 20000 Euro. They don't say what the price for the engine tuning only is.
Seasons Greeting
Dietmar Schlei


----------



## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (dschlei)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dschlei* »_And now there is light at the end of the tunnel. The December issue of "Gute Fahrt" (the German VW, Audi and Porsche magazine) features an article on tuning a 3.2 ltr Cayenne with turbocharging. the output goes somewhere to 480 plus ponies. They also do modifications to the whole drivetrain, inclusive 20" wheels, and the whole thing costs only 20000 Euro. They don't say what the price for the engine tuning only is.
Seasons Greeting
Dietmar Schlei









Say Bye-Bye to your powertrain warranty then.








What we were looking for on this thread was a VW sanctioned flash or ecu upgrade to get the extra 20 hp available in the 05' v6. It doesn't look like this is going to happen though.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (dschlei)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dschlei* »_And now there is light at the end of the tunnel. The December issue of "Gute Fahrt" (the German VW, Audi and Porsche magazine) features an article on tuning a 3.2 ltr Cayenne with turbocharging. the output goes somewhere to 480 plus ponies. They also do modifications to the whole drivetrain, inclusive 20" wheels, and the whole thing costs only 20000 Euro. They don't say what the price for the engine tuning only is.
Seasons Greeting
Dietmar Schlei









3.2 liters and 480 hp







I have to assume that this is a full race engine that is going to blow up in short order. The Cayenne twin turbo V8 is only 450 hp.


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (spockcat)*

Not to say the least...






















Anything more than 100hp/1000cc region is for lapping only, thus the asking price too..








Anyway, I have my friendly dealer's agreement to fit an 05 V6 engine ECU on mine, try to codify it and see if it works and gives out the extra 21hp from my engine. ECU was supposed to be here before Christmas but you know how VW is with parts delivery.
Hope next week will have some news... Patience may prove a virtue after all.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

Ask your friendly dealer for a printout of a scan of your car's modules and codes. I assume that VW's computer can do this just as a VAGCOM can.


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (spockcat)*

Would be surprised if they couldn't... Let you know.


----------



## N10S (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: (chickdr)*

As an owner of an R32 that may be trading it in on an 04 V"r"6 Touareg, I can only imagine that ECU tuning can reclaim that lost hp. Some of that delta may be real and some just marketing but in the end, based on my recent T-Reg test-drive, I am confident that a real seat-of-the-pants difference could be had through ECU MAP optimizing. 
I have been a gear-head all my life, and tearing-apart brand new vehicles to upgrade certain parts or re-tune through ECU mapping has never been a concern for me. The Touareg however is a slightly different animal due to its inherent tendency towards reliability problems. Even so I would still sign-up for a GIAC or Revo re-map and exhaust upgrade with no reservation if they were available. New direct-port mapping, makes these programming upgrades reversible as required. 
Personally, I think the chip tuners should/will jump on this opportunity considering how many owners would love to have another 15-20 hp.
Just my .02 
Jeff


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

Ok,this is what happened today at my friendly dealer’s.
We replaced MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 0008 (2003) with MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6384 (2005).
The process followed was the one for engine ECU replacement on the VAS 5051.
Coding process went like a dream for the new MOTRONIC unit, engine started, everything works fine, except:
Brake fault – Stop vehicle(Red) and Running Gear Fault – Workshop(Yellow) with ESP, ABS warning lights on rev gauge and Brake warning light blinking on the speedo. (Well, about time to see how they look like, never seen them on my MFI before...







)
Our checking process revealed that the suspension level adjustment controler 7L6907553B had the coding 15520 for 03 and 15521 for 05. So, new coding process for this controller and coding 15521 is in.
And now the difficult part.
ABS/EDS/ASR/ESP 4Motion Mark 25 contoller 7L0907379B with coding 14593 for 03 has been replaced in 05 models with 7L0907375G with coding 14594.
The error message we were receiving from VAS was that coding of ESP 4Motion Mark 25 contoller was wrong. 
We try to code 7L0907379B (03) with 14594 and ..... code not accepted.
Everything checks out green, everything works apart ABS/EDS/ASR/ESP 4Motion Mark 25 contoller 7L0907379B....
We took the car out for a spin, drives fine in every aspect, noticed that upshifts in “S” were done at 6200 rpm against 5900rpm with the old engine ECU but before I can Dyno it nothing can be said for extra power.
Vagcommers, hackers and fellow vortexers, please suggest any possible help for coding the 7L0907379B before ordering of new ABS/EDS/ASR/ESP 4Motion Mark 25 contoller 7L0907375G can be considered.


----------



## chickdr (Nov 28, 2003)

I assume you are paying for these new controllers? I don't know how the dealer would put those under warranty as the original parts are not defective and the new parts are not the same part numbers so they wouldn't be "switchable" as far as the warranty is concerned. How much is the upgrade going to end up costing you? I would guess you will need to replace the Mark 25 controller too since you can't get the new code accepted. I will be interested to see what the dyno tells you. You do have *BEFORE* results right?


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: (chickdr)*

..... before ordering of new ABS/EDS/ASR/ESP 4Motion Mark 25 contoller 7L0907375G can be considered.
I ended my post like that exactly for this reason. To consider total cost of this operation.
I'm not paying for the controllers,as I have issues to settle with my dealer. However, this exercise has to make real sense.
Cost of a MOTRONIC ECU is around 800 euro, which is the cheaper available solution today for a 10% power increase on the V6, subject to Dyno confirmation.
If the 4motion controller has to be replaced too, it's not economically viable anymore. You are looking at another 800 euro, so total cost around 1600. Better to consider the Camei chip for around 1200.
So, if we don't find a way to get the 4motion controller to talk to the new MOTRONIC unit, the buck stops here.
Maybe I will proceed and change it too, as it's no cost to me but even if everything turns out to be perfect, it will not make any sense for anybody else.


----------



## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: (jinxegg)*

Hey at least you tried and informed the rest of us children.








Please keep us posted. 
Cy


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (jinxegg)*

How about taking a 2005 out for a test drive and swapping out the two controllers from your 2004 while you are out?







just kidding


----------



## Spanks (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (cybulman)*

The change is much larger then just software. We are talking new compression ratio (pistons), new cam profiles, and software. Nothing will happen with the previous 04 V6's for updates. Not unless you find a wrecked 05 and do it yourself.


----------



## TREGinginCO (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Spanks)*

Carmakers always increase power out of engines from year to year ---- it's kind of expected. 
It's insane to think VW would re-flash an '04 engine to '05 horsepower specs --- they don't have to and us '04 owners shouldn't expect it either.


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Spanks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spanks* »_The change is much larger then just software. We are talking new compression ratio (pistons), new cam profiles, and software.....

Are you reading, dreaming or just making noise?


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (TREGinginCO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TREGinginCO* »_
It's insane to think VW would re-flash an '04 engine to '05 horsepower specs --- they don't have to and us '04 owners shouldn't expect it either.


That's why we try to do it ourselves with their available parts...


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_How about taking a 2005 out for a test drive and swapping out the two controllers from your 2004 while you are out?







just kidding

Better idea... They told me next month a W12 will be available for test driving.(booked it for a weekend!!!).
What can we switch in 48 hours?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_Better idea... They told me next month a W12 will be available for test driving.(booked it for a weekend!!!).
What can we switch in 48 hours?









Fly me in to Greece and I'll help you with an engine swap!!!!!!!!


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_
Fly me in to Greece and I'll help you with an engine swap!!!!!!!!

Flying you in is the easy part. Once you're here the difficulties appear: Time for W12 or time for Greek lessons????


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_Flying you in is the easy part. Once you're here the difficulties appear: Time for W12 or time for Greek lessons????









The hard part is getting me to leave.


----------



## Spanks (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_
Are you reading, dreaming or just making noise?

None of the above. 
I am stating the facts of the technical differences between 2004 & 2005 3.2L VR6s in the North American Touareg.
If you dont believe me thats your problem.
Cheers


_Modified by Spanks at 10:54 PM 2-3-2005_


----------



## sciencegeek (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Spanks)*

source?


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (sciencegeek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciencegeek* »_source?


He said "none of the above". So if he's not reading a tech spec sheet, maybe the source is epiphany. Let's wait and see.....


----------



## Spanks (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_
He said "none of the above". So if he's not reading a tech spec sheet, maybe the source is epiphany. Let's wait and see.....

You know, it’s sad when someone comes here to offer some legitimate input on a technical question and then has to deal with other people’s baggage and spiteful rhetoric.
Like I said previously, if you don’t believe me, that’s your problem.
So go ahead and ask any dealer to verify the part numbers for the pistons (also can be verified under VESIS by looking at Comp ratio of the 2 different engines) and cams. This will lead you down the road to enlightenment where maybe you too will have your own epiphany. That is if you’re not too arrogant to listen to it.
The changes to the 05 engines were not just to increase HP. Think about it- why would you reduce comp ratio on a naturally aspirated engine to increase HP? There are many other factors involved in the changes and unfortunately these changes are not easily interchanged into 2004 engines. The best you can do if you own a 2004 is to ensure that you have all of the relevant software updates in place and enjoy your Touareg.
Cheers


----------



## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Spanks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spanks* »_
You know, it’s sad when someone comes here to offer some legitimate input on a technical question and then has to deal with other people’s baggage and spiteful rhetoric.
Like I said previously, if you don’t believe me, that’s your problem.
So go ahead and ask any dealer to verify the part numbers for the pistons...... 

Did you say technical? Did you say to ask my dealer?
Well, I suggest next time you wanna offer your precious technical input to a 4 page thread, try to read a few posts at least from the bottom....
When you become more familiar with cars you will learn, that a different number for a part does not necessarily mean different operational characteristics of the part.
Numbers for the same part can change to denote just a different supplier, different market or maybe some minor construction differences, that do not affect the operational characteristics of the part.
Now for the V6 engine:04 and 05 Touareg V6 engines both have the same cc, same bore/stroke mm, same compression(11) and they both deliver max torque at 3200 rpm, according to VW tech specs.
Now, if that's maybe too technical for you to understand that your previous statements are faulse, try this:
Kamei are "chiping" the 04 V6 engine to 05 specs. So the kit includes the chip, set of cams and new pistons....Yea, ok, thanks for the info.
Now stop making anymore noise 'cause we're trying to concentrate here......



_Modified by jinxegg at 4:00 PM 2-5-2005_


----------



## Spanks (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (jinxegg)*

As you stated above, parts numbers obviously change for a multitude of reasons. In this particular case, what I am trying to relay to you, is that the PN changed because the design of the piston changed because the compression dropped from 11 to 10.2:1. And also stated by you above, is that the bore/stroke and CC stay the same. Given your apparent expertise in these highly technical matters, please help us less knowledagble folk to understand what happens to compression ratio when all other factors stay the same but the piston now has a slight dish in it. A reduction in the swept volume results in .....? Lower compression. Well ghallllliiieee!
As stated in my previous comments, there were a multitude of reasons for changing the 05 engine, HP being only one of the outcomes. Obviously they dont all revolve around increasing HP as there was a reduction in compression ratio (I'm not going to spell it out for you...take a look at other threads in this forum..what are V6 owners bitching about and what software has been released to address it-should be no problem for you to figure out with your excellent technical abilities). 
As for your comments regarding the chip from Kamei: No **** Sherlock- What respectable aftermarklet tuner couldnt get more HP from the OEM base calibration? Obviously they wouldnt need to use the pistons (which would make it harder to get the power) or the cams becasue they can tailor their calibration to a more focused customer profile where as the OEM doesnt have that option as they need to make it acceptable for everyone and also worry about emmisions and MPG.
Concentrate on this: 
This thread askes if an 04 can me updated to 05 HP level with OEM software. The answer is no. Period. If you want to try it, Ill get you an 05 ECM and you can tell us all how it drives and how it performs. But since your so technically adept, this simple proceedure may be below you. Anyone else interested?
Regardless, it sounds like your beating a dead horse- VW inst going to update the 04s and from what you state, Kamei already has the SW you need for far less then doing an 05 engine/software update. 
And since when does the number of pages a thread contains reflect its technical significance? Half the comments in this tread dont really reflect technical input of any kind.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Spanks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spanks* »_....because the compression dropped from 11 to 10.2:1.....

Just for the record the compression ratio of the 05 V6 is 10.8:1 according to VW eng specs, an insignifigant difference from the 04 being 11:1, so you're once again writing up useless mumbo-jumbo.
As for your generous offer concerning the 05 engine ECU and its trial, the only thing it proves is that, you're definitely not reading anything more than the thread's title and you're possibly dreaming with the only purpose of just making noise.
So the correct answer was "two of the above".....


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## sciencegeek (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (Spanks)*

let me try this again:
"source?"
and jinx: pls no sarcastic comments. spanks can speak for himself.


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## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (sciencegeek)*

I'm smelling an eye bee tee ell


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: "Children of a lesser God"??? (trollhole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trollhole* »_I'm smelling an eye bee tee ell









Naw, there hasn't been an M person here in a long time.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

The new 4motion ECM has arrived and I'm booked for the showdown next week.
Before I do that :
Has anybody with a VAG tried to code ECM 7L0907379B or C or D with code 14594?
If not, is there anybody willing to try it by this weekend and let us know?
Some feed back will be highly appreciated.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re:*

Just back from my friendly dealer and.... NO JOY.
We replaced the whole 4motion unit with a new one - part no. 7L0 614111 H, which had attached the new ECM - part no. 7L0 907379 G .
We also replaced the engine ECM with the 05 unit described in my post after the first trial.
Start engine and the faults are back on the MFI.
We start coding of the new 4motion ECM in the 03 menu of the VAS 5051, the new code 14594 was accepted by the ECM, the faults remained on the MFI and the VAS brings up an error message that the coding of the 4motion ECM is wrong and should be 14593 (same as the old one).
We try for 14593 and.....code not accepted by new ECM.
With the two new ECMs in place we try to fool the VAS and we go in the 05 menu, picking the BMV 177kw engine.
The engine ECM checks ok but when we get to the 4motion ECM 5 faults are coming up, as follows:
ABS/EDS/ASR/ESP 4Motion Mark 25
7L0907379G
ESP ALLRAD MK25 0203
Coding: 14594
5 Recognized faults
00778	005
Steering angle sensor – G85
Without or wrong basic adjustment / adaptation
01044	000
Wrong ECM coding
01279	005
Acceleration sensor – G251
Without or wrong basic adjustment / adaptation
01423	005
Lateral acceleration sensor – G200
Without or wrong basic adjustment / adaptation
01435	005
Sender 1 brake pressure – G201
Without or wrong basic adjustment / adaptation
Further down we get an error message from the suspension ECM, as follows:
Suspension Level Adjustment
7L6907553B
LUFTFDR.- CDC- 3C1P1
Coding: 15521
1 Recognized fault
01316	013
CAN time out brakes ECM
It appears that the CAN bus Gateway is somehow different between the 03 and the 05 and there is no proper communication with the new 4motion ECM.
What is strange is that there is communication to code the ECM but no output communication.
Unless someone thinks differently and has some suggestions to make, I think this concludes Stage 1 of this project with the result being that, no reasonably priced OEM parts can be used to upgrade the hp of the 03/04 V6 Touareg engine due to ECM incompatibility.
We have thought so from the beginning but it doesn’t hurt to try.
Thank you VW for “locking up” your controllers and making sure we 03 / 04 s will stay as “Children of a lesser God”.
And now for Stage 2.
I have two engine ECMs available. How about switching the chip of the 03 with the one from the 05?
Do you think it will work?


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: (jinxegg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxegg* »_
I have two engine ECMs available. How about switching the chip of the 03 with the one from the 05?
Do you think it will work?











I wouldn't put any money on it.


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: (spockcat)*

Me neither.... But I can try it for free.








The idea is to hook the new ECM on and drive around for a few days for the "adaptation" process and without 4motion in play, no harm.
Then take a Dyno and see what it delivers.
If the ponies are in place, i can talk to a "chipper" and see if it's possible.


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