# Learning how to "tune"



## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

-I didn't know where to post this so relax- 

I was educating myself on stand alone ecu(s) and it seems as if either hiring a tuner or having tuning skills is essential... 

I was wondering if anybody who had/has a stand alone setup could illustrate how hard it would be to learn how to properly utilize one by learning the needed tuning knowledge -basically how hard is it to learn the numbers 

Where would a guy start? 

Thanks!


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

hard  
not kill yourself hard 
very frustrating hard until you get it. then its awesome  
megasquirt is a good place to start 
my mk3 16v is running on megasquirt 
i got it running and driving 
the tuner tuned it for daily driveability 
i refined it to lean out during cruising speeds 
not HARD hard 
lots of reading and trying to understand 

in the winter im going to megasquirt my mk2 turbo too  
its addicting


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## I haz cheezeburgerz (Aug 8, 2008)

you don't need megasquirt (OP not rocklizzard) 

what makes you think you do? 

short of going that route, there is little actual "tuning" to be done short of swapping in different performance parts and chips. 

what exactly is the information you need? don't be vague.


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## Roketdriver (Jan 24, 2009)

x2.. it helps to know if you are tuning for performance or mileage.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Moving to appropriate forum.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Not sure where this one came from. I learned how and I've taught quite a few others to be quite effective on their own... 

Some good reading: 

http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Management-Systems-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760315825 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1557885575...iveASIN=1557885575&adid=0DT8H89XPPR97F3B3R4Z& 

There's lots of good info on the Megasquirt and SDS sites as well.


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Not sure where this one came from. I learned how and I've taught quite a few others to be quite effective on their own...
> 
> Some good reading:
> 
> ...


 cool thanks for those links. 

Im not exactly sure what my goals are going to be yet, except for the focus being between 0-80 and not really the top end, because it would be a daily. So I want it to be quick but good on mileage when im not stomping on it. 

So idk if that answers what your asking but Im going to modify it in chunks. Ignition, fuel, intake. I would like to throw boost in down the road but mainly i just want to be able to do something when I want to do it. 

To me if i can throw in 2 grand and start the project off right, it seems worth it. I hate the feeling of being limited, haha.


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## syncrogti (Sep 5, 2005)

I read the reviews for those books and it seemed like neither one dealt with Volumetric efficiency maps. Could anyone who has them/read them verify if this is the case?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

They both talk about 'fuel tables' and if that's a true VE map, an estimated VE map, or a random bunch of numbers that mean nothing other then a scaling factor in the ECU is more up to each system...


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

I haz cheezeburgerz said:


> you don't need megasquirt (OP not rocklizzard)
> 
> what makes you think you do?
> 
> ...


 _ 
I re-read your post and i didn't answer your question,_:laugh:.. 

So basically would it be a disturbingly hard task to learn how to fine tune the ignition timing (with standalone controlled ignition systems) and all the fuel delivery adjustments, boost mapping, (what other cool stuff can this thing do)? 

Is the general consensus just to buy some books? I'm down for learning _but is a novel really necessary?_:sly: 

Do you need to build the parameters from a blank slate or do they have something like default parameters so you can just adjust a little here and there? Maybe switch back to those if you F it up? 

Can you tell im a complete noob with this? :laugh: haha...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I wouldn't say it's "disturbingly hard" at all. If you want to plug it in and GO, then it's not for you. If you want to really *understand* how your engine works, what it needs, and how to get there, then you're on the right path. 

http://www.megamanual.com/index.html 

Click on "Intro and Ordering" that's a good start into what you'd be getting into. 

You'd be surprised at how 'off' you can be and have your engine still run. I used to start almost every car I set up with locked (no advance) ignition timing and a very base fuel configuration. From there I'd tune fuel, enable ignition, tweak ignition a bit and then go back to fuel. That was all before there were good datalogging packages for MS and I had to do everything 'live.' These days fuel can almost tune itself and getting a good start on ignition can be had from a few threads here. 

As far as blank slate vs starting point, it depends. I sell all my MS systems configured for the end use with all mods, a base configuration and email/phone tech. If you were to buy from another vendor you might get as little as a bag of parts to assemble and a 'good luck!' Even if it's the latter everyone in the MS community is here to help you learn. We just ask you read, and re-read, as much as you can first!


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Tor a random bunch of numbers that mean nothing other then a scaling factor in the ECU is more up to each system...


 ugh... i just had an 034 flashback. 

thanks for that...


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> http://www.megamanual.com/index.html


 Hey thanks for that link! I read some but not all yet, I will read that info to get a better feel for it but im not sure if its the best setup for me just yet. 

----- 

I seen this the other day and it is really appealing but I haven't heard anybody mention it here so idk. What do you guys think about this setup: http://www.braunstadt.com/lugtronic/node/13 

They make fully custom wiring harnesses too, so you can clean up the engine bay, which is pretty awesome if you ask me. It seems like it has everything that a guy could need but I have never had a standalone so how would I know...:laugh:


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> ugh... i just had an 034 flashback.
> 
> thanks for that...


 ive always heard people like 034?


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You'd be surprised at how 'off' you can be and have your engine still run.!


 
I think that's where I'm currently at with my setup. It starts decent, runs good. But there are just other factors that seem they can be better.


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## apavlov (Dec 4, 2005)

rocklizzard91 said:


> ive always heard people like 034?


 I suppose the hardware alright, but the software/interface BLOWS. At least it did before the last few updates.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

BigJohneyK said:


> Hey thanks for that link! I read some but not all yet, I will read that info to get a better feel for it but im not sure if its the best setup for me just yet.
> 
> -----
> 
> ...


 Kevin's Lugtronic product is a fully supported VEMS ecu. It's good stuff. Most of the people that use it don't post in here, as Kevin does most of the leg work (wiring/adapter, setup, tuning, etc).


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

apavlov said:


> I suppose the hardware alright, but the software/interface BLOWS. At least it did before the last few updates.


 still does. 
at the price point they sell those at, there are _much_ better options.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> ugh... i just had an 034 flashback.
> 
> thanks for that...


 You and me both brotha...never again.


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

@ needavr6 

Right on. :beer: Is the software pretty user friendly? Once a guy knows what he's doing, that is, haha...


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

One quick question.... I notice in your signature a 1998 tdi..... As far as I know there aren't many (any?) standalones that support deisel.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Tunerstudio for MS is much better then a lot of others. Going between MS1/2/3 gets a little silly as a lot of the features and menus move around. Though the basic things still apply.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Tunerstudio for MS is much better then a lot of others. Going between MS1/2/3 gets a little silly as a lot of the features and menus move around. Though the basic things still apply.


 IMHO TunerStudioMS is much better than ANY other tuning software I have used. ( and I've used a bunch) The most disappointing software I have used thus far is Motec ECU manager. It has a couple of cool features but the cons FAR outweigh the pros.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Prof315 said:


> One quick question.... I notice in your signature a 1998 tdi..... As far as I know there aren't many (any?) standalones that support deisel.


 any that i know of... 
driving diesel injectors and doing the voltage boosting is a bit of a black art, i dont thinkin anyones managed to make a standalone controller that does this.


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> One quick question.... I notice in your signature a 1998 tdi..... As far as I know there aren't many (any?) standalones that support deisel.


 Hahaha I was waiting for that one:laugh: 

Im in the works of getting a glx soon. Im impatient as hell so i fantasize about where I want to go with the project I haven't even started yet:laugh:


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

I talked to kevin @lugtronic and he said that vcds will still work with all the other modules besides the engine. So as far as the engine is concerned the measuring things from the standalone should be better than vcds anyways, so diagnosing issues with standalone ecu(s) should still be pretty easy.:beer: 

Is it? Again, I have never worked with one so...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Usually finding issues with standalone is easier because 'what it's thinking' is well documented and data-loggable!


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## apavlov (Dec 4, 2005)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> any that i know of...
> driving diesel injectors and doing the voltage boosting is a bit of a black art, i dont thinkin anyones managed to make a standalone controller that does this.


Well, 98's still used the VE pump, so the injectors are still mechanical. You just gotta control all the little solenoids/actuators within the pump. How hard can it be?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

If you search there is info on how to tune the tdi's yourself.


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

yeah im not going to be tuning a tdi. Im going to be tuning a vr6 when I find one.


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## bomberbob (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't think anybody answered one of your questions:
"Maybe switch back to those if you F it up?"
Megasquirt-
You save your settings in a file on your laptop. I keep MSQ files in a couple of folders. a 60/40 file (60% alcohol, 40% gasoline) for bitter cold of winter, an 80/20 file for spring and fall, and a straight alcohol for glorious summer. If you make some adjustments and realize you goofed something up and want to go back to the previous load, you just go back to the old file and burn it to the ECU.
Once I went to the E85 pump and it was out of service. No biggy, burned a pure gas file to the ECU, and filled up with gasoline. Its nice being able to burn anything between vodka and gasoline. No diesel, but anything else. E85 is only 2.60 a gallon here.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

bomberbob said:


> I don't think anybody answered one of your questions:
> "Maybe switch back to those if you F it up?"
> Megasquirt-
> You save your settings in a file on your laptop. I keep MSQ files in a couple of folders. a 60/40 file (60% alcohol, 40% gasoline) for bitter cold of winter, an 80/20 file for spring and fall, and a straight alcohol for glorious summer. If you make some adjustments and realize you goofed something up and want to go back to the previous load, you just go back to the old file and burn it to the ECU.
> Once I went to the E85 pump and it was out of service. No biggy, burned a pure gas file to the ECU, and filled up with gasoline. Its nice being able to burn anything between vodka and gasoline. No diesel, but anything else. E85 is only 2.60 a gallon here.


And here I am paying $3.80 for 93 octane. ther are very few E85 pumps here in FL. the nearest to me is over 50 miles away.


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## BigJohneyK (Feb 13, 2011)

bomberbob said:


> I don't think anybody answered one of your questions:
> "Maybe switch back to those if you F it up?"
> Megasquirt-
> You save your settings in a file on your laptop. I keep MSQ files in a couple of folders. a 60/40 file (60% alcohol, 40% gasoline) for bitter cold of winter, an 80/20 file for spring and fall, and a straight alcohol for glorious summer. If you make some adjustments and realize you goofed something up and want to go back to the previous load, you just go back to the old file and burn it to the ECU.
> Once I went to the E85 pump and it was out of service. No biggy, burned a pure gas file to the ECU, and filled up with gasoline. Its nice being able to burn anything between vodka and gasoline. No diesel, but anything else. E85 is only 2.60 a gallon here.


sweet man, thanks.


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