# please help me diagnose- way too bad to drive



## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

information-
car starting leaking oil (1/2-1 quart overnight) after my commute home the night it was below 0) tuesday night.
I have since parked it, drained the oil, put a new filter on, an refilled to specs. 
Did some research and the volume/speed at which it leaks seems to point to the cam tensioner gasket. I don't have a bentley manual, nor any experience with similar issues on this or on any other audi vehicle, so i'm basically in the dark on how to proceed with diagnosis- yet, i have friends who are quite adept with motors and who would be willing to help if the cam tensioner gasket is the issue at hand. I am definitely fairly capable myself, but most of my experience has been on american vehicles. If i can just properly diagnose the problem i am confident i will be able to tackle it in my garage.
thus far i have taken apart as much as possible while still being able to run the vehicle, removed the oil from everything i could reach, checked the oil level and started the vehicle-
for the first 10 minutes there was no issues whatsoever, then (presumably when it reached a certain temperature as the ambient in my garage is only 20 degrees or so currently) oil began to show on the front of the oil pan (see picture). This leak then continues to flow and becomes a very steady stream if the engine is left running.
is this consistent with the cam tensioner gasket? How do i successfully determine what exactly is the source of this leak? What else is it likely to be? 
thanks in advance- i'd really like to diagnose as soon as possible so i can get this fixed. I was planning on borrowing this car to my little brother starting next weekend, and would hate to leave him hanging.
-drew


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: please help me diagnose- way too bad to drive (whostolesilence)*

I'm assuming this is a 2.8...
Can you tell if the oil leak source is passenger / driver / front / rear side of motor ?
Pic shows quite a bit of "seepage" on the bottom edge of passenger side valve cover. Can't get a good view of the driver side and pics are a little blurry.
Just looking at the pics, I would consider replacing valve cover gasket and related adjuster gaskets on pass side unless you can confirm it's only historical oil sweat and no leak in that area.
This link is for the driver side 2.7T valve cover gasket but should give you some insight...
http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng52.shtml


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

the driver side has had a slow leak since i've owned the vehicle.
so far as i can figure this leak is front center of the motor- which is making it very difficult for me to find the source


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_...so far as i can figure this leak is front center of the motor...

Can you remove the belt covers from front of motor ? You may be able to open up just the tops of the covers and shine a light inside.
Not sure if you have to open up the front end bumper and carrier but if leak is front center of motor, you gotta get in there for a better look.



_Modified by GLS-S4 at 11:44 AM 1/19/2007_


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

what should it look like inside the belt covers?-
could i see spurting oil?


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

i did open those up- the bottoms of both of them had oil sludge on them.
does this help with diagnosis?
i ran the vehicle and saw no evidence of oil actively leaking inside of either one


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_...leaks seems to point to the cam tensioner gasket...

IIRC the pass cam tensioner is at the back of the head, driver side tensioner is at the front of engine.

_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_what should it look like inside the belt covers?

Dry.

_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_could i see spurting oil?

Likely a trail of oil leaking from front face of valve cover or either of the two cam shaft seals in the front face of head. Outboard is exhaust cam with timing belt pulley (oil seal hidden behind TB pulley), inboard is intake cam (oil seal hidden by cam shaft position sensor on pass side head) connected by chain to exhaust cam.
Note most folks recommend replacing front cam shaft seals while doing a timing belt job while they are easily accessible.


_Modified by GLS-S4 at 3:01 PM 1/20/2007_


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*

A long shot but worth mentioning...
I recall reading a TSB about the oil cooler twisting when changing the oil filter. Apparently a note is written on all new factory oil filters to check this every filter change. The TSB spoke of ensuring the oil cooler (the square box that you thread the oil filter onto) is sitting horizontal and not on an angle. If on an angle, hoses get stretched and / or pinched and can cause an oil leak.

_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_i did open those up- the bottoms of both of them had oil sludge on them.

Fresh oil sludge or old sludge ?
From the bottom face of motor looking up, can you get any indication of the oil leak track ?


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

I really can't track it- other than that it is pooling on top of the pan and then dripping down the front once it gets going.
there was both old oil and some new (not so viscous) oil inside the plastic covers.
advice?
i have help/friends willing to tackle this etc.- but it's waiting on my diagnosis/getting the parts.
-drew


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_...it is pooling on top of the *pan* and then dripping down the front once it gets going...

To clarify, which pan are you describing ?
Do you have a better pic looking up from the engine oil pan drip ?
Did you get to look inside the top of the belt covers ?
The 10 minute delay between engine start and flowing leak may be a clue, perhaps reconfirm this with cold engine and warm engine test. Sounds like a leak downstream from an oil heat actuated valve or the likes. Investigate plumbing paths further, including hose(s) to oil cooler.
Maybe get your friends over to help figure out what parts are needed and then get together again to fix it. Can't really drive the car anyway...
Advice... my .02 - All you can do is dig deeper. You gotta get in there to see it if your going to fix it yourself.


_Modified by GLS-S4 at 9:29 PM 1/19/2007_


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

I will snap more pictures later tonight-
thanks for hanging in here with my dumb questions.
-drew


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*

As long as your serious about fixing it yourself, there are no dumb questions.
I'll be away from the forums shortly so post what you have.
Assuming AHA engine code, another suspect... 
Note that Engine Oil Temp Sensor G8 is several inches to the driver side from front engine centerline, about 6" up from top of oil pan, above and inboard of oil filter and on front face of engine. The one pic you posted of the oil drip appears to be in that general area.
You need to determine if leak is high up on front of engine (ex. cam seals on head, etc) and if so, driver or passenger side... or lower down on front of engine (ex. oil temp sender, etc).
Use a mirror on a long flex shaft to get a better look around in tight areas.
If possible, peeking into top of belt covers may help determine if leak is from upper engine area http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by GLS-S4 at 12:49 PM 1/20/2007_


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

the belt cover is "off"- are you saying i should be able to see the leak inside of those if the source is the cam tensioner gasket?
we removed/broke my breather stuff on the top of the motor last night (plastic was way too fragile/brittle) and it didn't seem to be plugged.
-drew


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*

Left and Right Cyl heads are designed to be interchangeable with minor cap plug changes. Cam Tensioner on driver side head is at front of engine, opposite true for Pass head as they are mounted 180 from each other. Therefore if it is Cam Tensioner causing leak on front of motor, it's driver side head.

_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_the belt cover is "off"- are you saying i should be able to see the leak inside of those if the source is the cam tensioner gasket?

There is likely a "backside" plastic cover protecting head Timing Belt pulley which will hinder your view, but still should be able to see below it for oil track if leak is in fact high up on motor face. Lower portion of TB cover should also obvious signs of fresh oil if leak is high up on motor face.
You may need to "hose off" dirt and leaked oil to see better, suggest a degreaser or Brake Clean. Then rerun engine and leak track will be easier to follow.


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

we have been trying to do the brake kleen thing all along- but been unable to get close enough to really see anyways.
Did determine tonight that the leak is high on hte motor (behind that back side of that cover- so impossible to actually "see").
we than took the entire front end off etc., and basically got ready to do the cam tensioner gaskets/seals and everythign above them.
would you recommend ordering the parts from blau? do we need a bentley manual in addition to the directions they send?
i have 133k on the car and the timing chain was performed on schedule at 89k - would you do this now? I'd really rather not spend the $$$ right now.
-drew


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_we have been trying to do the brake kleen thing all along- but been unable to get close enough to really see anyways.

Understood, it's a bugger to see anything in there without opening up whole front end.

_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_Did determine tonight that the leak is high on hte motor (behind that back side of that cover- so impossible to actually "see").

Which head, driver side ?
If leak is behind the backside TB pulley plastic cover, then you know where your going.

_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_would you recommend ordering the parts from blau? do we need a bentley manual in addition to the directions they send?
i have 133k on the car and the timing chain was performed on schedule at 89k - would you do this now? I'd really rather not spend the $$$ right now.

I've not purchased parts from blau so I can't comment. IMHO Bentley is an invaluable tool. If you don't have Bentley, you "should" have enough info in parts directions and the S4 Valve Cover replacement link above. Note that you can purchase Bentley and get immediate access to their online manuals while you wait for your CD to ship - pretty cool. The online manuals are same info as CD. You could even purchase a 3 day access to just the website manuals to get past this immediate issue - maybe worth it for you.
See Bentley options for your car here: 
http://www.bentleypublishers.c...Email=
Note that there are several locations requiring application of sealant when re-assembling, the 4 corners of valve cover gasket, a few critical spots on tensioner double bearing cap, etc. Don't skip these or you'll be going back in there.
You've got another ~50K before needing factory scheduled TB replacement, but it's tempting because your into engine far enough that the labor is "free" and all you need is additional parts. My .02... if your planning to own the car for a long time, then I'd do the TB while in there.
I'm away for awhile... Good Luck http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## whostolesilence (Sep 4, 2005)

yeah, behind drivers side plastic cover as far as i can tell- really can't be certain though
anyways, at this point she's apart and getting repaired.


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## wigsjet92 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*

This happened to my 2.8 the other day. As i came up to stopsigns/lights i smelled oil burning. I did the cam tensioner gaskets, cam seals, cam pucks, t-belt, water pump, and valve cover 20k miles ago. I was puzzled to see my entire belt covered with oil. Oil was everywhere on the front of the motor. inside and outside of the timing covers. Once i got all the covers off i hooked up a jumper pack to the battery and cleaned all the oil. Started it up and watch the oil start pissing after 40 sec out of the front crankshaft seal. Don't know why but the breather hose is new, the motor gets plenty warm on my 40 mile jaunt to work. but what ever it will be fixed on monday with a new t=belt. My oil pan looks just like the photo you had too. Hope this help you out.


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (whostolesilence)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whostolesilence* »_anyways, at this point she's apart and getting repaired.

How is the repair work going ?


_Quote, originally posted by *wigsjet92* »_Started it up and watch the oil start pissing after 40 sec out of the front crankshaft seal.

Front crankshaft seal... yuk... did you replace it yourself ?


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## wigsjet92 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (GLS-S4)*

Yeh, it was all right nothing too bad. the front bolt was proably the worst part. I put the crank holder pin 3242 in and once I got the bolt and sproket off the seal was just sitting on the crank. Like it popped out. Didn't need to use a seal puller or take the flange off. New one went in smooth and tight. I will recheck it tonight to make sure it is still leak free.


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## GLS-S4 (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: (wigsjet92)*

Does this apply to either of you two?
http://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/375913.phtml
http://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/363345.phtml


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## wigsjet92 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (GLS-S4)*

Don't know but will check as soon as i can.


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