# Retrofitting additional road noise suppression material



## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

*Additional road noise suppression*

Now, don't get me wrong, the Phaeton is a very quiet car on the motorway/freeway at 70mph, but everyone has their own little obsessions and one of mine is road noise. That's one of the reasons I'm back in a Phaeton, but I'd like to spend a little time seeing if I can do more.
I'm thinking here of tyre and suspension noise/vibration: I love the sound of the engine and it's quiet enough at any speed, there's no exhaust noise to speak of, and there's a tiny bit of wind noise around the front mirrors/ A-pillars at "higher" speeds but I don't see how I can do anything about that.
So.... last time I went out in the car, I took a load of pillows and duvets with me and experimented with stuffing them in various places in the car, to see where the remaining road noise was coming from. My completely unscientific tests suggest there's some coming through around:
1) the trim panel between the rear passenger seat back and the rear passenger doors;
2) the front footwells, where they are up against the front wheel arches;
3) the lower portions of the doors / door seals.
I think I've managed to improve 1) by carefully feeding some noise-absorbing foam into the gap between the seat and the trim and curling it round and round so it sits snug against the trim panel and the metal behind it. You can do this without removing the trim panel, though removing it makes it easier initially to see what you're up against. I think this is a worthwhile "mod": it's made a pretty small difference, but it's only 20 minutes work. I used a specialist foam that I've used before on other cars: "Second Skin" Overkill Pro.
On investigating 2), I found there wasn't much that could be done easily and discreetly. The carpet in the footwells has very carefully moulded noise-absorbing foam stuck directly onto the back of it in most places, and I doubt much noise is getting through that: it looks like a lot of thought has gone into its composition and placement. I took off the trim panel that runs along the door sill and managed to wedge a couple of layers of foam in behind that, particularly the large squarish area at the front end of that panel, which doesn't seem to have much insulation under it as standard. You have to be clever here not to disturb the wiring and connectors that run behind the panel.
Dealing with 2) took another 30 minutes and I'm not sure it was worth it.
I've also put some special liner in the trunk/boot floor: it's a sandwich of two rubber layers with a foam middle layer. That may also have reduced the small amount of road noise coming from the back. Not sure, but I was going to do it anyway to protect the boot carpet.
Anyone else experimented with noise insulation ?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick:
An interesting and thought-provoking post, thanks for writing it up.
I think that the one thing that your items 1) and 2) have in common is that they are both very close to where the wheel and tire is located. They are also both quite 'thin' areas - in other words, they don't afford VW the luxury of a whole lot of space to stuff sound absorbing material into.
You are correct, an enormous amount of thought (and time, and money) went into the design of the carpets. If you have a look at this post Retrofitting the OEM Fire Extinguisher to the Phaeton, you'll find some pictures that show how thick the sound absorbing material under the carpet is. In some places, it is over 8 inches thick.
The V10 powered Phaeton has additional sound-absorbing mats wrapped all around the front wheel well liners. The mats are on the engine side of the wheel well liners, not the wheel side. You might want to investigate the possibility of installing the V10 spec wheel well liners (with attached sound insulating panels) on your car. Wheel well liners are generally pretty cheap parts - I remember paying about ₤15 for a wheel well liner for my 2002 Golf - and they are easy to remove and replace. Ask the parts specialist at your VW dealer to have a look at illustration 821-10 in the parts catalog, and let you know the price for the V10 front wheel well liners.
It is fairly simple to remove the wheel well liners from the car (you just need a co-operative VW dealer who will loan you a hoist and a coverall for a day). This post: TB 00-06-02 - W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification contains quite a few pictures of the front wheel well liner removed from my car. Because I have a petrol engine, the liner does not have any sound absorbing mats around the outer circumference.
Another worthwhile option is to make a trip to the Phaeton Transparent Factory in Dresden, and ask your question there. The engineers are always happy to have owners visit, and my guess is that someone would take you up into the assembly area to allow you to have a look at all the nooks and crannies as the cars are being built. This would give you a really good perspective on how to approach the problem. By the way, the best way of doing that trip (from the UK) is to take the ferry from Harwich (the one you sleep on), then you can make a high-speed run right across Germany, and arrive in Dresden "without undue delay", if you know what I mean.








Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (PanEuropean)*

Just a post-script: The picture below shows what an insulated wheel-well liner from a V10 TDI looks like. Disregard the writing on the picture, it pertains to the W12 technical bulletin that I referenced in my post above.
*Sound Insulation in V10 TDI Wheel Well Liner*


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick
I have exactly the same thoughts, beautiful car, but some of our roads do seem to create a fair bit of road noise. I have experimented with different brands of tyres on other cars I've had, and the different tread pattern and compound does make a difference.
I am looking at this for the paheton.I too would be very interested in installing the wheel liners and I shall contact my dealer next week.
I too think most noise is generated from the front footwell area that's where i suspect tyre noise is coming from.
I tried sealing up all the door gaps with special tape I use at work, but this did not make any diference.
Where did you get the foam from as I would like to try what did as well.
Having said all this the car is very good and I am definitely a proud ownwer. This is only a minor niggle but would be nice to solve. By the way Nick what tyresare you running,mine are Bridgestone. I am a member of Auto Express and they suggested Goodyear!
Keep me informed of any developments you make. If anybody else reads this thread and has any additional suggestions all would be gratfully received.
Regards
Peter


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Peter,
The foam I used behind the trim panels is Second Skin Overkill Pro, bought from 
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk
The rubber/foam sandwich liner I used in the boot is Noisekiller Non Adhesive Acoustic Floor Mat. See
http://www.noisekiller.co.uk/s...4.php
My tyres are 255/45 R18 Dunlop SP Sport 9000s. I don't know how they compare to other tyres for road noise.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Michael,
Thanks for your comments.
How easy is it to take out 1) the rear seats 2) the trim panels around the rear wheel arches inside the boot/trunk, in a 5 seater model ? Is there a post covering this already ?
Regards
Nick


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Thanks Nick
The Low profile 45 do create some addiitonal road noise, I don't thick the Dunlops use the hardst compound. But tyres with the Asysemtric tread pattern will cut down the noise a little.
Most of the noise from tyres comes from the air being compressed in the tread grooves as the tyre rolls along. The larger the grooves the noisier the rubber. Big water pumping tyres have the largest grooves.
Thats why Im considering Pirelli, Goodyear, avon or vredestein
I have e mailed goodyear to sent me a sepc and picture of the tread pattern.
Will post it if it comes through.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Peter,
You should get some useful tread pictures and other blurb, as well as keen prices, by following this link:
http://www.mytyres.co.uk/start.html


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (plastech)*

Hi Tony
I running Bridgestone 235/55/17 on inspirations wheels, On soft tarmac very quiet. By on general roads epecially the tarmac with large stones in( sorry don;'t know how to describe it) it become quite a noisy rumble all the time. 
If anybody is running on Goodyear perhaps you could out your comments


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (palladino)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palladino* »_ I have experimented with different brands of tyres on other cars I've had, and the different tread pattern and compound does make a difference. 

I agree that tire selection probably make the biggest difference in the amount of noise coming from the bottom of the car. I always been surprised when changing road surfaces how dramatically the noise quality and level changes. 
I had a dealer disassemble a manual transmission on a Maxima as we were both convinced the incredible whining noise was coming from it rather than its actual source, the ultra-high performance summer tires. The noise gradually got worse as they wore and it was quite a relief when I changed them.
I now pay attention to the noise component when selecting tires. There's not much to go on (that I'm aware of) but I rely on the "Noise Comfort" level as reported in TireRack.com's tire user surveys. I know this reports users' subjective opinions, but I don't know of any other sources that report this either subjectively or through testing. Does anyone know any other sources for this information?


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Thanks Nick quite a good link with plenty of options.
Peter


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Quiet car*

You could also try applying a viscoelasitc coating to the wheel wells.
http://www.quietcoat.com/index.html
"up to 20dB of noise reduction" 
The quietest Tires I ever had were the Yokohama AVS-DB.


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

*Re: Quiet car (Spectral)*

Spectral,
The product link you supplied (www.quietcoat.com) states that Quietcoat bonds to metal. As the front fenders on a Phaeton are a composite plastic material, I wonder if Quietcoat will adhere to the composite material used to make the Phaeton's front fenders?
RB


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: Quiet car (Rowayton)*

Pulled from the site-
QuietCar can deaden steel, aluminum and *composite* materials. Applied properly, QuietCar can reduce the noise in your vehicle by up to 80%. It cleans up easily with plain water and is environmentally friendly


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Quiet car (Spectral)*

Hi Spectral
I had the AVS Decible on my Passat, they were pretty good, but was I told that there are better?
Peter


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Good discussion. I think we might end up making some useful improvements here, especially for us suffering Brits with our high performance summer tyres, high motorway speeds and poor road surfaces.
Spectral,
Cheers for the quietcoat link. I hadn't seen that one, but I've looked into other brands of liquid visco-elastomer type damping materials.
I'm going to pull out the front and rear wheel liners and investigate what scope there is for using something similar, as well as further matting. IIRC materials like quietcoat and solid equivalents like Dynamat Extreme are good at killing low frequency resonance/noise (and that's why bass junkies line their doors and trunk with it) whereas foam and rubber type mats are good at absorbing higher frequency noise. I'm minded to use both if possible. You seem to know your stuff on sound engineering: have I got this right ?
Michael, at first glance it looks like my V6 TDI already has the additional sound insulation in the liner that you mention. I don't think it's up to the job ! Probably it suppresses a lot of the noise firing directly at it, but doesn't butt up against the metal bodywork snugly enough and widely enough to suppress all the noise.
I'll report back when I know more of what I'm talking about....


_Modified by uk_nick at 12:38 AM 9-27-2006_


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: Quiet car (palladino)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palladino* »_Hi Spectral
I had the AVS Decible on my Passat, they were pretty good, but was I told that there are better?
Peter

There may be a quieter tire than the AVS-DB. I don't know what it is, but it can't be *that* much quieter than the Yokos. On a smooth road, I couldn't hear any tire noise at all.
There are certain roads that will create lots of tire noise regardless of how quiet the tire is. Pavement that has been texturized for improved traction in wet or snowy conditions will make your tires hum pretty loudly in any car. Same goes for older pavement that has lots of smaller surface pits.
Our roads in Chicago are terrible. Washboard surfaces, textured pavement, poorly patched potholes, etc. Fortuneately, my travels take me to places that actually have some decent roads. I ran into a long strech of fresh black top on I74 from Indianapolis to Cincinatti recently. Fantastic road! Such a quiet and smooth ride. Almost makes me wish I lived in Shelbyville, IN....well not really.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

A useful link for the Yokohama tyres:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/Ti...eID=8#
By their own figures it only offers a 1 dB reduction against typical opposition, though.
I'm hoping to achieve a bigger improvement than that through additional insulation. One must always have hope ....


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)*

A quote from the Bentley Flying Spur article in the Sept. 25 issue of AutoWeek magazine:
"Cruising at 60 mph and under full throttle, the noise level inside the Flying Spur is a tad louder than the Mercedes-Benz S500 and Volkswagen Phaeton; oddly, the difference is more pronounced at idle, where the Bentley fall up to 10 decibels short of the coffin-like quiet of those German models."
These are all quiet cars. I can whisper at 80 mph and be easily heard by my passengers. Most of the noise I hear is tire noise. I still think the most effective and economical path to a quieter cruise is a careful choice of tires (or tyres, if you're a Brit!).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Quiet car (Spectral)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spectral* »_You could also try applying a viscoelasitc coating to the wheel wells.... 

Don't do this to the exposed surfaces of the rear wheel wells of a Phaeton - they are carpeted on the side that is closest to the wheel, this is a noise reduction feature. I suspect that if the carpeting was covered over, noise would increase, not decrease.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (uk_nick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *uk_nick* »_How easy is it to take out:
*1)* the rear seats 
*2)* the trim panels around the rear wheel arches inside the boot/trunk
in a 5 seater model ? Is there a post covering this already ?


I don't think it would be too difficult to remove the rear seat back and rear seat bench. One of our forum members (Whealy) did this already, to defeat the weight-sensor switch that operates the headrest (his child was right at the weight threshold, and the headrest kept going up and down...). The post discussing that can be found here: Automatic Movement of Rear Seat Headrest.
Removing the trim panel that comprises the rear door threshold and then runs about 2/3 of the way up the side of the rear seat backrest, (referred to as the 'wheel house trim') should not be too difficult, although removal of the upper 1/3 - the piece into which the seat belt disappears into, referred to as the 'Lower C-pillar trim' - would be very difficult and likely require partial removal of the headliner. To remove the wheel house trim, you first need to remove the rear seat cushion (base) and backrest.
Best to get printed directions explaining how to take these parts apart from your VW dealer. Seat cushion removal is in section 72 of the maintenance manual, and wheel house trim removal is in section 70. Normally, the VW dealers are quite happy to print out this information for owners, as long as it does not run to 50 pages. The information you need is about 10 pages total. If you can't get it from your VW dealer, let me know and I will get it for you.
Below is a picture of a Phaeton body prior to installation of all the above-mentioned parts... this might give you an idea of what you will find once you get things taken apart. As you can see, there is not much excess space between the metal body of the car (the wheel arch) and the inner surface of the wheel house trim.
Michael
*Rear wheel house, before installation of seats or trim*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)*

By the way, my car is in the dealership today for an oil change, which requires removal of the front right wheel well liner if the Phaeton has a W12 engine (the wheel well liner must be removed to get access to the oil filter).
So, tomorrow I will visit the dealership and take a whole bunch of pictures of what is behind the front wheel well liner, and what the liner itself looks like.
Michael


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: (uk_nick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *uk_nick* »_
Spectral,
Cheers for the quietcoat link. I hadn't seen that one, but I've looked into other brands of liquid visco-elastomer type damping materials.
IIRC materials like quietcoat and solid equivalents like Dynamat Extreme are good at killing low frequency resonance/noise (and that's why bass junkies line their doors and trunk with it) whereas foam and rubber type mats are good at absorbing higher frequency noise. I'm minded to use both if possible. You seem to know your stuff on sound engineering: have I got this right ?
_Modified by uk_nick at 12:38 AM 9-27-2006_

I'm not 100% sure on the different sound absorbtion qualities of various materials, but I'm sure that the manufacturers can give you a graph that shows absorbtion plotted against frequency.
I believe that the visco elastic will provide you with the best overall absorbtion with the least amount of mass. 
I think that your approach to using layers of materials that compliment each other is a good one for eliminating a wide range of frequencies.


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: Quiet car (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Don't do this to the exposed surfaces of the rear wheel wells of a Phaeton - they are carpeted on the side that is closest to the wheel, this is a noise reduction feature. I suspect that if the carpeting was covered over, noise would increase, not decrease.
Michael

Good point. 
I think spraying your wheel well with visco elastic also might make it difficult to remove the wheel well liner.


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: (uk_nick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *uk_nick* »_A useful link for the Yokohama tyres:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/Ti...eID=8#
By their own figures it only offers a 1 dB reduction against typical opposition, though.

One decibel quieter is not much. I doubt anyone could tell the difference in real world driving conditions. The other tires that they compare against are also known for their quiet qualities.
Sort of a bad marketing move for Yokohama from my perspective, but I'm sure many buyers look at those bar graphs and say "the Yokohamas are the quietest" and then buy them. I look at it and say "there are two other tires on the market that are just as quiet as the Yokos...maybe I should buy them instead."


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Quiet car (Spectral)*

Although I don't have an opinion about spraying wheel well liners with sound absorbing materials (I have not done any research on it), one option might be to take the wheel well liner out of the car - a very quick and easy job, 5 minutes at most (not counting removing the wheel), spray it away from the car, let the stuff dry, then re-install it.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)*

Nick:
Here are the pictures of the wheel wells that I promised you.
It is very easy to take the liner out of a wheel well - about 4 minutes labour, tops, and about 15 fasteners (all the same size) for each wheel well. So, if you are thinking of adding insulation, you might want to give some thought to adding it on the 'outside' surface of the body of the car, between the wheel well liner and the car body itself, rather than trying to do all the work that would be involved with dis-assembly of the interior components such as seats, carpets, and so forth.
Be cautious not to block the antenna for the Tire Pressure Monitoring System. You can see the antenna in the third picture down - it is the thin, vertical, sort of serrated looking thing (about the size of a nail file) that is at the 10 o'clock position, close to the outer edge of the wheel well.
Michael
*Rear Wheel Well* - liner in place








*Front Left Wheel Well* - liner in place








* Wheel Well* - liner has been removed








*Front Right Wheel Well Liner*


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Michael,
Many thanks for these. I'll have a look on my own car some time over the weekend and see what can be done. Looks promising.
Like quite a few UK owners I don't have the TPMS, but I think the warning will still be useful for owners who do.


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick
I'm following this one very closely too. keep me up to date with your developments.
I have had a look at putting insulation under the rear bench.Michael is right not a lot of room for improvement, could get some in but unless using a very high quality insulation that's not too thick I am not sure it would make a vast difference. ( you might prove me wrong)
I have asked my dealership to order the insulated liners. let you know if they can get them, thought i would try these 1st then move on from there.
Peter


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Earlier I suggested the V6TDI wheel well liners might already have the matting on them. I've checked - they don't. They're as the ones in Michael's pictures above.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Help !!!! I took the rear seat base out, and I can't get the £$**!!$£% thing to go back. It won't settle far enough back in the 4 clasps that hold it at the rear.
I see the poster at http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1757298 had the same problem. I may have to get the dealer to put it back, but can anyone help ?


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick
Seems like you have saved me the trouble as I was going to take it out over the weekend. I did have quick look underneath, but did not actually pull it right out. I think though you have to lift up the rear of the seat to locate it in the u type brackets. It does look tricky, that's why i was leaving it to the weekend.
Did you manage to get and sound proofing in? If you did it may be causing the re locating problem.
Peter


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick
I have just ordered the wheel liner sound proofing mats from my VW dealer. he is e mailing me a picture to check them , if they are the correct ones I will post their part number and price on this thread.
Peter


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Noted. My dealer's just quoted me £27.79 plus VAT each. I'm mulling it over....


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi again
I have just spoken to my VW tech, and he said if I get them he will fit them for me, however he reckons I shold not get my hopes to high, said they do work to a degree, but it depends on what I am expecting from them. I said silence! he said OH!
I'll keep you posted
peter


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Nick:
Attached is the installation instructions for the rear seat bench, printed from the VW Phaeton repair manual. Perhaps you are just not using the correct technique to install the seat base. Hope this helps.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (palladino)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palladino* »_I have just ordered the wheel liner sound proofing mats from my VW dealer...

Peter:
Are the insulating mats for the wheel well liners available as a stand-alone part? I thought you needed to order the complete assembly (wheel well liner with sound-absorbing mats installed - for V10 TDI).
Be aware that your existing wheel well liners may not have the pins on them that are needed to retain the sound absorbing material in place.
Lastly - let me check with the engineering folks in Dresden to see if there is any reason (e.g. heat dissipation, etc.) why we should NOT retrofit the V10 TDI wheel well liners to other model Phaetons. The factory has always been pretty good about checking out these kind of questions for us ahead of time. Normally it takes about a week to get a response, because the question gets forwarded to engineering in Wolfsburg.
Michael


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi Guys
Just in case anybody else want's to put the wheel liner sound absorbsion pads in, the part numbers you need are
3DO 864 237B and 3DO 864 239A.
Don't know if these numbers just relate to uk cars 

Peter


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)*

I am slightly puzzled by you guys wanting to put additional soundproofing in. Does this mean the V6 have less soundprooing because In my V10 I don't think it needs it. do you guys have double glazed windows? AS far as I can see there seems to on the V10 perfectly adequate noise suppression.


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (pilgrim7777)*

Hi Pilgrim
I am not sure about the double glazing, I'll ask at my dealership, but the cars do come with different level of sound insulation. My dealer e mail me a picture of the full V6 W10 and W12 insulation list. I am not very good at posting pictures so I am e mailing it to Michael, hopefully he will post it here for all to see
Peter


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael
I have just checked that out, yes you can order them as separate pads. Not sure about the fixing side, but I thought I could use a good adhsive to stick them onto the liner.
My VW tech there was no obvious problem in retrofititng them on the V6 as the gap behind is the same.

Hopfully!

peter


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (palladino)*

Attached is the picture that Peter sent me by email. I have also attached (at the bottom of this post, below the picture) an Adobe Acrobat PDF that provides a three page long legend for all of the parts illustrated on this diagram (illustration 863-20). The PDF is from an earlier generation of the parts catalog than the illustration (illustration = update 616, PDF = update 563), however, I don't think that should make a big difference. Keep your eyes open for possible incongruities, though.
I've gotta admit that all this is quite new territory for me, because we don't have any diesel cars in North America, and as you can see from the remarks on both the illustration and the PDF, most of the 'additional' sound insulation bits are added to the diesel Phaetons.
It appears that parts 37 and 38 are the ones that are most pertinent to this discussion. There are no notes in the 'model' column that suggest that these two bits are specific to any particular vehicle configuration (e.g. a certain type of engine, or a certain option fitment as indicated by a production code), thus, I can only presume that items 37 and 38 are already fitted to all of our cars, worldwide.
Looking at the PDF file, it seems that if additional insulation is fitted to a diesel, it is fitted to both the 6 and 10 cylinder diesels. The only exception to this is the last part listed in the PDF file, 'insulation for headlight', which is specific to the production code T2M, which refers to the V10 TDI. But, this part would pertain to reducing noise created outside of the vehicle, not in the cabin.
The illustration that Peter sent me (illustration 863-20, the one with the blue background) shows various loose bits of insulation. Below that, I have posted a different illustration (821-10) that shows the wheel well liners themselves. These are the parts that are different between the V10 TDI (which has additional insulation on the wheel well liner, see photo on the first page of this thread), and the other Phaetons, which do not have additional insulation on the wheel well liner.
My *guess *is that I think we should focus our attention on the wheel well liner shown in illustration 821-10, but, that's just a hypothesis and I'm not 100% certain about it. It appears that the wheel well liners with the suffixes L, P, and S are the ones with sound insulation attached to them, and the liners with the suffixes K and Q are the 'normal' ones. The liner with the suffix R is a bit of a red herring - my guess is this probably has larger ventilation holes in it to help dissipate the heat from the W12 supplemental radiator when operating in very warm regions of the world. There are pictures of this W12 supplemental radiator at this post: W12 Auxiliary (Supplemental) Radiator.
Michael
*Illustration 821-10 - wheel well liners*


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael
Slight problem, the sound insulation, arrived yesterday. You have guessed it wrong parts.
I amstill trying to sort it out, but although the part numbers I listed are for the sound insulation ,it is not the part that goes around the liner..
Peter


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (palladino)*

Hi Peter:
OK - I will be in England tomorrow, perhaps we can get together on Sunday or Monday and figure things out? I will be staying in Oxford, perhaps I can drive down to your place on Sunday, or you can come up to Oxford on Monday or Tuesday?
Maybe it would be best to meet at your place Sunday, that would allow Nick (from Teignmouth) to drive over, and the three of us could work on the project together? Let me know.
Michael


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Morning chaps,
Sorry - I'll be in Jersey from tomorrow for 5 days: it's half term, so family holiday time.
Good luck and keep me posted anyway. When I finally get round to doing some more on this issue, I'm pretty certain I'll be brushing some liquid elastomer stuff onto the wheel arches and slapping some bespoke closed cell noise absorbing foam on top of that, sandwiched behind the wheel arch liners.
Regards
Nick


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael
It would be great to get to meet you. But sorry I am away on a teaching course from tonight until next Thursday.
Best Regards
Peter


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick
Have you had any progress on the extra noise suppression. It is something close to my heart aslo and would like to achieve a personel goal with.
keep me informed 
peter


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

After watching this thread for a while I can't help but wonder why you are not using Acousta Mat or B-Quite. Both are aluminum faced Visoelastic material that is cuttable, very viso elastic, self adhesive has a easy peel off removable backing and cost about 20% of buying parts from VW.
I have used it many times. It is available in variable thickness of about 0.0625 
I insulated my SUV on every interfacing surface: Door, wheel wheels, Floor pan, even removed the headliner and laminated it.
The Car was like a tomb and much improved thermally. Required a full weekend. But NOT hard. 
While it may look like there are only some areas that provide acoustic paths those can be covered as the full additional quiteing material is added.
I have significant experience with noise reduction inventing the origional active sound canellation system Bose uses the same principay and basic system on their earphones.
I recommend it strongly and have a nmber of aquitances that have accomplished very significant improvements utilizing the same product which has wide spread usage in both automotive, and industrial application.


_Modified by GripperDon at 1:43 PM 11-5-2006_


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Hi Gripper Don

Thanks for your comments. Any idea where I can get it from.

Peter


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

This will show you how to do it, performance, location etc. I did it and it was actually easy, Removing stuff to get at the location is the only work
http://www.nissanperformancema...200sx/

AND Here
http://www.b-quiet.com/?ovrtr


_Modified by GripperDon at 12:44 PM 11-4-2006_


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

I've done this (i.e. added solid damping sheets on inside faces of panels) on other cars but won't be doing it on the Phaeton. Why ?
- what noise there is is road noise seeping through in reasonably specific areas;
- there is already a layer of gunk, looking suspiciously like a visco-elastomeric compound, on most of the internal faces of the body panels in the relevant places, e.g. footwells;
- I think it'll be easier to apply more such gunk on the outside of the car, i.e. in the wheel wells, than to do a decent job of applying solid sheets inside the car: the interior of the Phaeton is just so full of wires and clips, and bumps and folds in the panels, that the job would be a real pig*.
* Shame really, because I've got about 30 sq ft of the right sort of damping sheets sat in the garage from a previous project !
If anyone in the UK does want to use solid sheets, they may struggle to get "B-Quiet" here, but the equivalent Second Skin products (www.caraudiodirect.com) get fairly consistent good write-ups.


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## Highline (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: Additional road noise suppression (pilgrim7777)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pilgrim7777* »_I am slightly puzzled by you guys wanting to put additional soundproofing in. Does this mean the V6 have less soundprooing because In my V10 I don't think it needs it. do you guys have double glazed windows? AS far as I can see there seems to on the V10 perfectly adequate noise suppression.









Double glazed windows are STANDART on LWB V8 petrol models, as well as both body styles of the V10 Diesel and W12 petrol. On the other Phaeton models, it is an optional extra.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

I think all models have double-layer glass, i.e. two layers of glass with a plastic film layer sandwiched between them. Both my V6TDI's have had it as standard.
The noise isn't coming through the glazed areas - it's coming through body panels close to the wheel wells, and it's just a bit of tyre roar.


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Hi Nick

1st thanks to gripper don for the link.
I agree with you nick , not a lot of noise anyware except the front footwell, and I think a little from the rear, possible edge of seats again near the wheel arc.
People I take out think Im nuts complaing about the noise. I think this is a personel think and its just something I have a thing about. 
I am having trouble getting the W10 sound absorbers on the wheel liner, my dealer thinks I may have to buy the whole liner. Also some items are not available in the UK and this might be one of them, so i am again looking to stick something on top of the exisitng liners and see if that works.
Peter


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (uk_nick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *uk_nick* »_The noise isn't coming through the glazed areas - it's coming through body panels close to the wheel wells, and it's just a bit of tyre roar.

Nick:
Before you go down the road of installing additional insulation, please take a credit card or other straight-edge object and bridge the gap between the aft edge of the front door and the forward edge of the rear door, likewise, between the aft edge of the rear door and the forward edge of the rear quarter panel. Do the measurement with the straightedge parallel to the ground, and check at the 'crease-line' that runs along the door panel about 75% of the way up.
There should be no offset between the panels - in other words, the aft edge of the two doors should not protrude out further than the forward edge of the door behind it or the rear quarter panel behind it. If you notice that there is any protrusion, the fix it to open the door, loosen the two bolts that hold the door striker hook on the B pillar (front door) or C pillar (rear door), and move that striker hook in about 1 or 2 mm, maximum.
To ensure that you don't move it in too much, and to ensure that you keep the striker pin properly aligned, put a piece of masking tape along the outside edge of the striker pin before you adjust it. You can then refer to the masking tape (the original position of the outside vertical edge of the striker pin) when you move the assembly inwards a bit.
I made this adjustment to Carlos's 2006 Phaeton in Florida 2 weeks ago - it made an absolute 'night and day' difference in terms of getting rid of tire and road noise.
Be careful, though - if the door trailing edges are in fact flush with the panel behind them, don't adjust the pin inwards more than 1 mm, max, otherwise you will over-compress the door seals.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (uk_nick)*

Nick:
Below are some photos that illustrate what I was trying to explain in the post above. In the first photo (showing the hotel room key against the side of the car), you want to determine if the two panels (front door and rear door) are flush, or if the trailing edge of the front door sticks out further than the leading edge of the rear door. Same concept when you compare the trailing edge of the rear door to the rear quarter panel.
If you determine that the trailing edge of the door protrudes, then you loosen the two bolts holding the striker pin in place, and carefully move the striker pin inwards the appropriate amount. Then tighten the two bolts (don't over-tighten, the torque specification is only 20 N·m, which is quite low), close the door, and see if the two panels line up.
I put the strip of masking tape there to show you what I mean by setting an initial reference point (where the striker pin was before you move it), but as you can see, I did a crappy job - the masking tape is not parallel with the outside edge of the pin. Sorry about that - I took the photo at night, in the dark, using a black car...








If you have a really serious problem with wind or tire noise, you could consider adjusting things so that the trailing edge of the door is up to (but in no case more than) 1 mm further in than the leading edge of the surface behind it. But, I would not advocate that you do this except in the most extreme circumstances - the car might not look right, you will introduce new wind noises that arise as a result of the loss of laminar air flow along the side of the car, and once you over-compress the door seals, you can't go back again.
Note that there is no up/down movement possible with the striker pin, so you don't have to worry about that axis - it only moves in and out.
Michael
*Measuring the door panel for appropriate compression (pull-in, tightness of closure)*








*How to use masking tape to note the initial starting point*
(just pay more attention than I did...)


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael
I think I will try this one out myself
Thanks
Peter


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (palladino)*

Morning Peter
I see you have your pop up bloker ,stopping your IM from working
Tony


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Michael, you are exceptionally kind to put together your detailed post and pictures... though in my case I have already checked and the doors are perfectly aligned.
The noise at the rear is being radiated forward through the wheel arches. Most of it is then of course being blocked by the thick cushioning of the rear seats, but some makes it through the trim between the seat and the door.
I think the car is blocking the noise as well as it was designed to, I'm just a natural fiddler.


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (plastech)*

Hi Tony 
Bloody computers, do you know how i take it off
Peter


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (palladino)*

Hi Nick
Mine seems to check out ok as well. My wife reckons I would complain about the noise in my own coffin.
She is proberly right. But i am on a mission now.

Peter


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: (palladino)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palladino* »_My wife reckons I would complain about the noise in my own coffin.

Classic !


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (palladino)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palladino* »_Bloody computers, do you know how I take it (the pop-up blocker) off

Depends on whether the pop-ups are being blocked by Internet Explorer itself, or by some add-on gadget that promises to block pop-ups, such as the Google toolbar.
In principle, it is best if you do not use add-on pop up blockers such as Google Toolbar's pop-up blocking feature (the rest of the toolbar is fine). So, if you have a third party pop-up blocker, turn it off.
As for Internet Explorer, go to the TOOLS menu, then select INTERNET OPTIONS, and you will then see a little rectangular window with a series of tabs across the top. Press on the tab that reads PRIVACY - this is about the third tab from the left. You'll see that the bottom half of that tab deals with pop-up blocking. Leave the check mark in the box entitled "Turn On Pop-Up blocker", however, press the nearby button that reads SETTINGS and in the new window that appears, you will see a space to enter the names of websites that you want to permit pop-ups from.
In that new window, type  *.vwvortex.com, then press the ADD button. You will see the domain *.vwvortex.com now show up in the list of sites that are allowed to present you with pop-ups. While you are there, you might want to also enter the names of any other business-related sites that you trust, for example, your bank, your computer manufacturer, etc., such as *.hsbc.co.uk or *.ibm.com
The purpose of the * (asterisk) is to serve as a wildcard, in other words, by putting a star in front of the main domain name, it means that anything originating from that domain is allowed to present a pop-up. Because all of our IM's have different serial numbers, you need to put the wildcard in there to grant a blanket permission to Vortex to present pop-ups.
By the way - Vortex does NOT use pop-ups for advertising, ever. Vortex only uses pop-ups for instant messages, or spell checkers, etc. So there is no risk to allowing pop-ups from anything in the vwvortex.com domain.
Michael


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick) Road suppression Noise and Rear Valance*

Just in case anybody reads this post.
The W10 wheel liners are being fitted to my V6 on 3rd January so I will let you know if there is any difference.
They are also fitting the new W12 valance and pies at the same time. i have asked if I can take pictures, You can guess what the UK dealership said to that.
Anyway i will try to get something.
Peter


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## FootSore (Aug 22, 2006)

*Re: (uk_nick) Road suppression Noise and Rear Valance (palladino)*

OK let me know. Just did went to devon & back today for a couple of meetings. 350 mile round trip, did notice a bit more wind noise today as well, also noticed the trees seemed to be having a day off from standing up!
Anyway if simple & results in lower noise then I would definately be up for a set. Ask your dealer if you can have pics of your install so I know what I am ordering from him.
You could ask them to take pics if they don't want you on the floor.
FootSore
PS - Two Phaetons spotted recently. One dropping off outside Columbia University (Black W12) & another on the hill up out of Cheltenham.


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## palladino (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: (FootSore)*

Hi foot sore
Ok I will do my best , Darren is pretty helpful so I wil post on this thread. When I pick up invoice i will post the liner part No for you. He did say it take about 15/20min to repalce each liner. I would do it myself, but while its in i might just as well let them do 
Peter


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

*Road noise suppression - update ?*

Mostly FAO "Palladino":
Peter,
Re the thread at http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2
- did you have any success eventually ? I'm about to order a wheel arch liner for the A8 to experiment on, so thought I'd ask.
Cheers
Nick


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hello Michael,
If you have a chance, could you please rehost the photos for this thread? Thanks.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (remrem)*

Photos rehosted.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

If anyone in the UK still wants to kill that last bit of road nosie from the wheel arches in their Phaeton, I can recommend this stuff: on the external and internal metal surfaces of the arches:
http://www.edaudio.com/store/p...id=43
Not the cheapest stuff in the world, but really easy to work with, just the right amount of stretch and give, closed cell so it doesn't hold moisture, and it is effective.


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## bobster1969 (Apr 18, 2015)

ok........what happened.
i have read this thread from start to finish and would like to know the results in terms of DB reduction if any?
i am looking to add the sound reduction in the near future and wandered the difference made?


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## imon_2nd (Apr 29, 2015)

Interesting thread.

Did folks here come to some conclusion about quietest tires? 

As for tire noise, the Bridgestone Potenza RE97AS 245/40 tires on my car are not the noisiest I've owned nor the quietest. In my experience, the Michelin Pilot Sports were the most silent running.


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