# its time for 4 barrel carbs



## samrabbit (Feb 18, 2002)

ya I know, individual carbs blah blah.
time to break out of that , and think about hp.

but they are really expensive, hard to tune on the street, and breathe hot radiator air, which kills hp and adds detonation. and you gotta use small ones which kill hp too. too large and car dont idle or have low end without sputtering like its got the flu.
if they made max hp, the v8 drag cars would have them and they dont. they have already proven that a single carb makes more hp than individuals. tuning is easier and faster, and they always run great no matter what the weather.
so I'm puting 4 barrel carbs in single or dual form on vws for those that want hp.
pic of 16v with 4 barrel edelbrock. idles better than stock, starts up(unlike cis 16v's), and gets good mpg in cruise mode.
at full throtle all four barrels feed each cylinder, and its like yamaha v max V boost when the secondaries open up.
hold on!!!!!
I can make them fit under the hood, but I'd rather have them stick up and show what you got, and get fresh cold air instead of radiator heated air.
if you wanna go fast, drop me a line.
oh ya, if you gots a 20v engine, the downdraft 4 barrel is the ultimate.
the ports are downdraft and made for this.
I've seen enough sidedraft carbs bolted on to downdraft ports, and that just dont help the situation for mega hp.
jg engineering spent alot of dyno time reshaping the honda ports to downdraft for their big drag engines, and we already have that port shape in the 20v motors.
if anyone wants to run a NA 20v drag engine, holla and I'll show you what I know.
live , eat and breath vw.



















_Modified by samrabbit at 11:45 AM 8-1-2006_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (samrabbit)*

wow, uh, to each their own i guess. A+ for origionality


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## jettaflair (Jan 7, 2006)

maybe it's just me, but I thought that V8 drag cars had to use single carbs because of the rules related to the class they drag in. I'm sure if they could, they would run 8-bbl carbs.


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## volksrabbits-r-us (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (samrabbit)*

have any dyno numbers? I'm curious, looks badass!


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## ratdub (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (volksrabbits-r-us)*

whats next...putting a holley/gm tbi setup on a 8v/16v?


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

why not?!? it sounds like it would be a hoot on a worked over motor


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (samrabbit)*

600 cfm on a 2 liter hmm...
Why not a pair of them?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (volksrabbits-r-us)*

theres no way youre making more power forcing the air to make a 90 degree turn and taking longer to get to the combustion chamber...
move your radiator down or get one that doesnt force hot air into the side draft carbs...youll make more power


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## 91 Aigner (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (samrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *samrabbit* »_
so I'm puting 4 barrel carbs in single or dual form on vws for those that want hp.

Am I reading this correctly? Dual 4 barrel carbs on a sub 250hp engine?


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## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (91 Aigner)*

Props to you for the inovation and individuality!!!! 
Not something I would do.
One reason most drag racers use 4bbl carbs instead of individual throttle bodies is all the R&D and knowledge base with the 4bbl setup. NASCAR R&D money has transfered over to the rest of the v8 market. If you look at other V motors that make as much if not more HP per cubic inch in other forms of motorsport (F1 for example) you will see Individual throttles. The other reason for for individual throttles is the response to throttle changes. Someone who I know was the lead engineer on the Rochester Quadrajet Carb - He does not even deal with carbs. He only does fuel injection systems. He gets more power out of the motors with FI.


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## lamarchambers (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (samrabbit)*

it's hard to make these guys believe that a single carb is as good as dual carbs. i use a 500cfm holley 2barrell on the 2.0 with JH head and a 750 holley double pumper on my 2000cc turbo bug and never have to adjust them. what type intake do you use or make for your rabbit? i'd like to try that.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (lamarchambers)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lamarchambers* »_it's hard to make these guys believe that a single carb is as good as dual carbs. 

For the past few years, I've been helping a buddy with his race car. The rules he races under require that he run a single 2 barrel carb. We've gone throught several intake manifold designs, done a lot of dyno and track testing. The big problem with a single carb as opposed to duals is getting a manifold that works properly, with duals it's fairly easy, it's more or less a straight shot. A single carb manifold is much more difficult to get right, it's not uncommon for two pretty good looking and apparently well designed manifolds to show SIGNIFICANT differences on a dyno test. But, when you do get it right, it can be almost as effective as a really good dual set-up and better than an average one. After this year's racing schedule has ended we're going back to do some more R&D, we've already broken 185hp with a 2.0L-8v VW and we're cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to find another 10-15hp.


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## Northern RD (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
For the past few years, I've been helping a buddy with his race car. The rules he races under require that he run a single 2 barrel carb. We've gone throught several intake manifold designs, done a lot of dyno and track testing. The big problem with a single carb as opposed to duals is getting a manifold that works properly, with duals it's fairly easy, it's more or less a straight shot. A single carb manifold is much more difficult to get right, it's not uncommon for two pretty good looking and apparently well designed manifolds to show SIGNIFICANT differences on a dyno test. But, when you do get it right, it can be almost as effective as a really good dual set-up and better than an average one. After this year's racing schedule has ended we're going back to do some more R&D, we've already broken 185hp with a 2.0L-8v VW and we're cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to find another 10-15hp.

What type of intake are you guys running? A Lynx maybe??


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (Northern RD)*

We're running a crossflow head and we haven't been able to find a 2 barrel carb manifold for it so our manifold is custom fabbed.


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## lamarchambers (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (ABA Scirocco)*

ABA- thanks for your input here. maby someone from redline or others will see this and do some research and make a intake that will take a single 2 or 4 barrell down draft with out an adapter. these are old 2 barrell intakes that i use and could be made better . Lamar


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (lamarchambers)*

that's tough.


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

i wanna see video of the 4 barrel


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## 2035cc16v (May 18, 2000)

*Re: (yeayeayea)*

stupid is as stupid does.


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## wagentime (Aug 14, 2006)

at least its not going to the junk yard or rusting apart in some field i like it when you do what you need to do


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## samrabbit (Feb 18, 2002)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (lamarchambers)*

no adapters here. the manifolds are made to fit the 4 barrel carb like a glove. no logs or cylinders, cool organic manifolds with flow in mind.


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## samrabbit (Feb 18, 2002)

*Re: (yeayeayea)*

video of carb golf at drags. 

http://s103.photobucket.com/al...e.flv


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## 91 Aigner (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (samrabbit)*

So what was the ET and MPH?


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

*Re: (samrabbit)*

"a single carb makes more power than individuals"?
in some applications MAYBE, but not all


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## Boost_Retard (Oct 10, 2005)

I can take some pictures of a few manifolds i have..they are counterflow manifolds..built by Fat performance (off road race company) they have IDF or DRLA flanges.. equal length runners..some are plenum style..some are not..only problem is that they cost a small fortune..
i will be running my car with a small 40 IDF that is hogged out to the max (36mm vents) i like down draft carbs better than side drafts..and i have had my share of dual carb motors..im very much excited to not have to worry about carbs stayin in sync anymore..
i say if you can make a 4bbl do the trick. good on ya, a nice demon carb would look good..or even a variable venturi predator would look killer


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## 16racer (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (Boost_Retard)*

A 4bbl seems like a great idea to me. Its simple to tune, plumb, cheap, and its deffinatley different for a 4cyl. From what I've observed, the single reason guys run multiple carbs on vw's is because it looks "euro"...and thats all. Multi carbs have always, and will always be a giant pain in the a$$ and the pocketbook. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (16racer)*

The main advantage of multiple carbs as opposed to a single 4 barrel carb is that it's much easier to make a good well balanced intake manifold. It's possible to make a good 4 barrel manifold, but a manifold for twin 2-barrels is a LOT easier, I'm pretty sure Samrabbit would agree with that.


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## Northern RD (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_The main advantage of multiple carbs as opposed to a single 4 barrel carb is that it's much easier to make a good well balanced intake manifold. It's possible to make a good 4 barrel manifold, but a manifold for twin 2-barrels is a LOT easier, I'm pretty sure Samrabbit would agree with that. 

I think the guy above REALLY wants a `68 big block Chevelle to mount that 4bl on,...


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## AggroDriver (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (Northern RD)*

someone use to make a Holley 4-barrel to 8v manifold 20 years ago.
It was a sand cast with no markings.It may have been FAT as
they've been around a long time.


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## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (AggroDriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AggroDriver* »_someone use to make a Holley 4-barrel to 8v manifold 20 years ago.
It was a sand cast with no markings.It may have been FAT as
they've been around a long time.

seen one








8v counterflow intake for a holley 450 carb.
stuff like that can me classed in "rare ****"


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## Northern RD (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (BladesNet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BladesNet* »_
seen one








8v counterflow intake for a holley 450 carb.
stuff like that can me classed in "rare ****"

rare yes: efficant or desirable, no,..... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## T1256 (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: (Northern RD)*

Why would you use an edelbrock??? They suck.


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## Northern RD (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (T1256)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T1256* »_Why would you use an edelbrock??? They suck.

Not true: the one I had worked VERY well proping the garage door open,....


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## 16racer (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (Northern RD)*

Edelbrock carbs are never gunna make the most power; but for driving they can't be beat. Their a ton easier to tune than a holley and work great on a *real* motor (V8).


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## 91 Aigner (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (91 Aigner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *91 Aigner* »_So what was the ET and MPH?

No response? I bet people would quit making fun of you if your drag times backed up your talk.


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## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (Northern RD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Northern RD* »_rare yes: efficant or desirable, no,..... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

back in the days, it was an easy/simple solution. the setup I've seen was used in a 1979 rabbit that was used for rally and ice racing.
Today, I'd stay away from as there are better solutions. like weber dcoe 45 or standalones like megasquirt.
And yes, time will probably shut up a few mouths.


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## Northern RD (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (BladesNet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BladesNet* »_
back in the days, it was an easy/simple solution. the setup I've seen was used in a 1979 rabbit that was used for rally and ice racing.
Today, I'd stay away from as there are better solutions. like weber dcoe 45 or standalones like megasquirt.
And yes, time will probably shut up a few mouths.

Back in the day people used to run cars without such things as oil filters and air filters becouse it was easier and/or simpler and I`m sure that there are STILL people out there that say breaker points are better and will make a comeback soon but in the end the point still stands that the set-up is, uhm, a bit crude,...


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## Jmersh (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: (Northern RD)*

For Goodness sake, at least put a hood scoop over that thing. Please.


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## SilverMkII (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (Jmersh)*

BUMP,
Any dyno or 1/4 mile times for your carbs?


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## T1256 (Mar 6, 2006)

What size is the carb, the smallest i thought is a 500CFM and that seems to big for your application. You talk about max power but the fastest V8 guys are not using edelbrocks. 
I believe holley makes 350cfm nascar spec 4 barrel double pumper carbs.(or something like that.You should check into it.
A holley 2 barrel carb might not be too bad either. anywase definitly an interesting thing you have going on.


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## AggroDriver (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (T1256)*

Most sanctioned,4cyl.oval racing classes are limited to ether 350 or 500
cfm 2 brl.You can easily put them on a Rabbit,Fox,Omni or Magna Flow intake with a adapter.A 500cfm/solid lift head/1.8 is good for
about 160hp,9a or ABA @13 to 1 with gas about 180hp.
If a good cross flow intake was available for a 850 4brl,I think
it could make allmost as much power as a dual45 at 1/3 of the cost
,be easier to tune and have better economy on the St.








If you bought a MS/TB setup, brand new what would it cost?
Duel 45 setup?850cfm Barry Grant Speed Demon=$459.95


_Modified by AggroDriver at 12:19 AM 11-2-2006_


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## joshisapunk (Oct 1, 2004)

you could easily put together a MS/ITB setup for the same cost. ^^^^


_Modified by joshisapunk at 6:08 PM 11-4-2006_


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## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (BladesNet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BladesNet* »_back in the days, it was an easy/simple solution. the setup I've seen was used in a 1979 rabbit that was used for rally and ice racing.


Her's the setup I taklked aboit a while ago ....
Bear in mind, that was in the early 80 for racing.


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## vdubjim (Jan 30, 2000)

buddy made an intake similar to above and used to run one of those little 4 barrels off an RX7


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## Bergenor (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: (vdubjim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubjim* »_buddy made an intake similar to above and used to run one of those little 4 barrels off an RX7

Do you have more info about it?????
I have one of those carbs in here...............
Lot's of vacuum and wires........


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## caddygti (Mar 5, 2006)

*.*


_Quote »_No response? I bet people would quit making fun of you if your drag times backed up your talk.


If this is the same sam rabbit from 1999/2000 rabbitation or waterfest nobody that's old enough to know better would be making fun of him. trust me.


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## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: . (caddygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *caddygti* »_If this is the same sam rabbit from 1999/2000 rabbitation or waterfest nobody that's old enough to know better would be making fun of him. trust me.

I was too young then








Please elaborate


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: . (caddygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *caddygti* »_
If this is the same sam rabbit from 1999/2000 rabbitation or waterfest nobody that's old enough to know better would be making fun of him. trust me.

Amen to that. And it IS the one and the same Sam Rabbit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .


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## caddygti (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: . (Andrew Stauffer)*

and I remember you tooooo








Yeah I have video somewhere of the stupidfast superrabbit. I think it was at a waterfest. After actually seeing some of sam's creations I'll take his word that it works.


_Modified by caddygti at 8:34 AM 11-13-2006_


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## caddygti (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: . (caddygti)*

Sam, Any more info? I'm running a dellorto 2 barrel now.


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## bigbumpmike (Aug 26, 2003)

so can you post some pics of the aba intake manifold to run down drafts?


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## junkyardjockey (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: (BladesNet)*

IM sent to aggrodriver & 16vracer http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## junkyardjockey (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: (junkyardjockey)*

id like to know what samrabbit used for an intake manifold on that beast


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## VWCR8ZY (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (junkyardjockey)*









well if anybody cares, here is my set-up its a Holley 350, runs smooth and has really good pull all the way up to 7k+


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## mike2coupe (Nov 30, 2006)

*Re: (VWCR8ZY)*

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y92_jKW5iwg
this guy has a 4 barrel carb on a turbo 16v rabbit.


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## Northern RD (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: its time for 4 barrel carbs (samrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *samrabbit* »_
ya I know, individual carbs blah blah.
time to break out of that , and think about hp.

but they are really expensive, hard to tune on the street, and breathe hot radiator air, which kills hp and adds detonation. and you gotta use small ones which kill hp too. too large and car dont idle or have low end without sputtering like its got the flu.
if they made max hp, the v8 drag cars would have them and they dont. they have already proven that a single carb makes more hp than individuals. tuning is easier and faster, and they always run great no matter what the weather.
so I'm puting 4 barrel carbs in single or dual form on vws for those that want hp.
pic of 16v with 4 barrel edelbrock. idles better than stock, starts up(unlike cis 16v's), and gets good mpg in cruise mode.
at full throtle all four barrels feed each cylinder, and its like yamaha v max V boost when the secondaries open up.
hold on!!!!!
I can make them fit under the hood, but I'd rather have them stick up and show what you got, and get fresh cold air instead of radiator heated air.
if you wanna go fast, drop me a line.
oh ya, if you gots a 20v engine, the downdraft 4 barrel is the ultimate.
the ports are downdraft and made for this.
I've seen enough sidedraft carbs bolted on to downdraft ports, and that just dont help the situation for mega hp.
jg engineering spent alot of dyno time reshaping the honda ports to downdraft for their big drag engines, and we already have that port shape in the 20v motors.
if anyone wants to run a NA 20v drag engine, holla and I'll show you what I know.
live , eat and breath vw.


















_Modified by samrabbit at 11:45 AM 8-1-2006_

FYI:
http://www.bell-performance.co...1.htm
What he said,...


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## marcm (May 19, 2007)

*Re: (BladesNet)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif pm sent this set up is SICK http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## w00ht (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: (marcm)*

It's interesting that this thread should pop up, I was recently looking at Downey's web site since they used to be really big on Weber conversion kits for Toyota 4X4's. Toyota 22R motors are 2367cc's and have a 92mm bore with an 89mm stroke. They are using a 350CFM Holley with an adapter plate to the stock manifold. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Downey Off-Road's Web Site* »_ 

Downey never pursued the installation of Holley carburetors on 22R engines during the time Weber carburetors were available. Now we are because; 
(a) the Weber plant was closed for 2 or 3 years.
(b) the Holley has great cfm compatibility with the 22R.
(c) Holley, Downey, and Moroso make the goodies that let Holleys work better in off road terrain than any other carburetor, including Webers.


I was under the impression the benefit to running ITB's or individual carbs was for throttle response due to the high air velocity and ultra short runner length (compared to a regular manifold). In a drag racing application instant throttle response isn't as critical as max flow and top end power, which is why the 4 barrel down draft would work well (Sam Rabbit never did post his time so we don't know what he did on that day). In an autocross and road racing, direction changes and quick throttle stabs are part of the game and this is where ITB's shine. Having gas slosh around in a big four barrel float bowl is a significant drawback in this application. I suppose that could be mitigated by running something like one of the custom 4x4 Holley carbs but they don't flow quite as much as the race carbs. 
individual throttles on a street car really don't have any advantage and usually end up being a pain. It is a well proven fact that you will make a lot more power for your dollar with a forced induction setup than ITB's or individual carbs. Of course a lot of folks just like the way they look and sound, which is a perfectly valid reason if you've got the scratch to set your engine up that way!


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (w00ht)*


_Quote, originally posted by *w00ht* »_individual throttles on a street car really don't have any advantage and usually end up being a pain. It is a well proven fact that you will make a lot more power for your dollar with a forced induction setup than ITB's or individual carbs. Of course a lot of folks just like the way they look and sound, which is a perfectly valid reason if you've got the scratch to set your engine up that way!

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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