# Fail



## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

figured out why compression test on cyl 1 was like 115 and the rest were 155+ across the board, the kinetic stage 1 kit figured it out in a hurry. I kept easing into boost and it was feeling good, but at WOT it would break up. Well I was on it and pop, i saw black smoke billowing out my tailpipe then plumes of white smoke pluming everywhere around me. :wave:


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

raise your hand if you saw this coming


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

hey I asked about the WG vac ports a few times... oh well live and learn... HG spacer and will keep it moving. I was over boosting, because i had the vac port off the turbo on top of the WG and Vac/boost from the mani+dv giong to the bottom port (i know now only bottom gets boost and top gets vented if no controller) it was fun though . The misfire all along was the coilpack, got a beru one that came out of duralast packaging 2 year warranty for 210. Someone was trying to sell me a used one for 150, I could have got something else but I didn't want to wait.

I put the kit on myself, the stuff I didn't understand I asked about. And when I figured it out I put it online. Its a process. Mani didn't fit right because GAP's exhaust nuts have a washer attached unlike the OEMs that don't. I didn't know you had to back it all the way off the studs to get it on (which still wouldn't have worked because of the wider nuts from gap - which is why i cut two bottom studs)

the coilpack is just an F up. I compression tested, torqued everything down to spec. Like i said HG kit, spacer, arp bolts and a deck. good to go.

round 2!


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

cabzilla said:


> raise your hand if you saw this coming


:wave:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

How many hours did this last you?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

a couple days, it wasn't running right because the coilpack took a crap. Wish I had the WG lines set up right. It was OVER boosting, would have known but i accidently broke my boost gauge trying to uncoil the nylon tubing with the gauge attached, dropped it on concrete floor. The HG was on its way out anyways. 110 psi (before adding oil 120) vs 155+ across the board, it was bound to happen eventually. I just sped things up. Head spacer, mk4 HG and ARP head stud kit. Leave it better than I found it 

9:1 or 8:5:1? Leaning towards 9:1 unless I get a good deal on a 8:5:1


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

You probably don't want to be running a kit, your first without a vac/boost gauge. Definitely playing with fire.

Either way, rebuild it and make sure you are monitoring boost, fuel, etc next time.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

The head gasket was on its way out... But yeah def. at least now I know how this damn WG is set up finally. But she'll be back even better  car doesn't turn over like this btw, just hickups...


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> You probably don't want to be running a kit, your first without a vac/boost gauge. Definitely playing with fire.
> 
> Either way, rebuild it and make sure you are monitoring boost, fuel, etc next time.


Like I said, i had one lol. If you buy an install kit the stupid vac line is all types of coiled, trying to uncoil it, make it reach, with the gauge attached I fn dropped it and the needle fell off.


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## way2manydubs (Mar 10, 2006)

cabzilla said:


> raise your hand if you saw this coming


:wave:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

way2manydubs said:


> :wave:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

anyone ever use eurospec head stud kit?

http://eurospecsport.com/products/components/engine-hardware-updated.html


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> You probably don't want to be running a kit, your first without a vac/boost gauge. Definitely playing with fire.
> 
> Either way, rebuild it and make sure you are monitoring boost, fuel, etc next time.


it's not needing a rebuild, just a head gasket  doing the spacer and head studs ftw as well :beer::beer:


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## way2manydubs (Mar 10, 2006)

On a street car, you want undercut studs whenever possible. Non undercut versions can loosen over a number of heat cycles. Also consider having the valve guides checked and seals replaced since the head has to come off.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

way2manydubs said:


> On a street car, you want undercut studs whenever possible. Non undercut versions can loosen over a number of heat cycles. Also consider having the valve guides checked and seals replaced since the head has to come off.


Are these eurospec under cut?


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## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

if it was overboosting, you probably have more damage then just the HG. I caught mine right before it popped, but found that #1 and #3 pistons were melted/cracked. I was able to save the block luckily


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

we'll see.. doubt it though, i didn't hear any audible pinging. @ 110 psi at cyl one it prolly popped before any damage was done. The side port on the WG was hooked up right, but it was seeing boost at the top port, prolly seeing 1:1 boost. So im thinking about 12 psi. Which the injectors would have been able to handle, but it wasn't intercooled. It also turns over fine, which makes me think the rotating assembly is just fine. but like I said we shall see


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## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

Mine would feel like it was breaking up as well (actually leaning out) I just thought it was misfiring. at the time my boost gauge wasnt hooked up so I didnt realize it was overboosting. I had oil pouring out of the pcv, and I had massive amounts of blowby. I still drove it for a couple days after the initial damage and once i got it boosting to only 6psi. It ran pretty good just wasnt very fast. Once I had the motor on a stand I flipped it over with the oil pan off and noticed a crack clear across the underside of #1 piston. Make sure you inspect them well!


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

indeed I will. My car was actually misfiring due to a bad coilpack, throwing codes and everything. I had my plugs gapped down to .025. I'm assuming at 12 psi it's not going to crack pistons, i only really floored it once and thats when the HG popped.

Did you hear any audible pinging at all?


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## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

No I did not.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

hmm thats odd, thought you would hear ping. Almost got my head off, the upper cam tensioner looks to be broke once I got it off tension, broke in three pieces - so i need a new one of those. Stripped out the bottom coolant housing allan bolt (it was real corroded, did my best so it wouldn't strip) got it TDC, chain supported. Prolly gonna take the head off with the exhaust manifold.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

ill post up the shattered upper tensioner brown thing, hopefully its just the upper one and not part of the bottom. I didn't hear anything break at all, so perhaps it was just like that, and couldn't tell because it was under tension. Who knows, R and R.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

got the head partially off, no damage to cyl 1 or 2. I see the HG damage though lol


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## way2manydubs (Mar 10, 2006)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> Are these eurospec under cut?


I have an idea. Ask the people who SELL THEM.


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## way2manydubs (Mar 10, 2006)

P.s.
your car needs timing chains, and likely a clutch. Please dont start another 45 threads anout these Issues.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

way2manydubs said:


> I have an idea. Ask the people who SELL THEM.


im going arp, forget it.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

way2manydubs said:


> P.s.
> your car needs timing chains, and likely a clutch. Please dont start another 45 threads anout these Issues.


clutch was done at 90k, i was told chains were done at that time too but from what I found it appears not. The upper guide looked intact when I removed the cover. I was careful, but I guess I broke it taking the bolts off. I didnt hear or see it break though. Getting a new upper stuff, will do lower either they go bad or clutch goes.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)




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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

The tops of those pistons are awfully clean.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Hell yeah how about it 134K. Seafoam 2x since I have had it before every oil change. Car came with solid oil change documentation.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

Thats way too clean for 34k, much less 134k
That head had to have been off before you bought it, seafoam doesnt clean all the carbon deposits off like that.

Not hating like the others, you may have overboosted but I'd bet the previous owner didnt tq the head down properly.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

car pulled hard NA? I dunno? i have all the paper work for the car? The bolts were rusty, didn't look like the head had been off in a long time.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

advice I got is that it's normal (well taken care of)


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I agree, looks like it has had coolant in all the cylinders. Even engines running water/meth don't usually look that clean.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

well at least your pistons got pressure washed and steamed cleaned 
:laugh:laugh:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

no joke!


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Taking the head to get decked, there are some bumps (those big brown spots) Not sure what that is I guess from the corrosion probably from the coolant? Just got all the stuff off of it tonight, I'll take it in tomorrow.


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## corrado-correr (Jul 8, 2004)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> Taking the head to get decked, there are some bumps (those big brown spots) Not sure what that is I guess from the corrosion probably from the coolant? Just got all the stuff off of it tonight, I'll take it in tomorrow.


those brown bumps are stains/remnants from the head gasket


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

did a leak down test, hearing it in the main coolant passage on the pass bottom side of the engine on cyl 1. on cyl 3 (no compression) I hear it in the lower timing chain from somewhere. Not sure why? Compression was low across the board except for one cylinder was at 120 psi (should be 14.7x9:1=132.3 psi plus its cold) no damage in the bores, no scag in the oil... gonna double check the torque on the head stud nuts and replace the HG and cross my fingers.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)




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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

that seems to look like piston guts


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

happy i found the problem, side of piston 3 hence no compression! C ring and oil ring, a bunch of nuggets came off that piston.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

You are *sure *there is only damage to that lone piston?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

its the only one with 0 compression and visual inspection; its the only one with the missing chunks. but no... more could be damaged. I'll tear it down and and decide what to do. Hopefully the rods, block and crank can be salvaged, particularly the crank and block.










view from up top


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I'd go through that bottom end, very thoroughly. :thumbup:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

def gonna do that, but i have another long block ready to go in tonight :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

They all looked so nice from the top too... :wave:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> They all looked so nice from the top too... :wave:


Seen that before many times. :facepalm:


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## Rmeitz167 (Dec 16, 2007)

cool to see another turbo vr so close to home.... but you should probably spend some time doing a little reading up on vr6 turbos . opcorn: I miss my ginster vrt


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

i got bad advice on how to run the vac lines to the WG, as some others. I read kinetics directions and made a post about the vac lines. Too little too late.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Motor is currently in, gonna do a C test tomorrow and get her purring hopefully and only at 6 psi. The other motor i'm gonna tear down, maybe 3.0 8:5:1? Build something that will max out the 60 trim and then some. If its even usable, will make something happen slow and steady.

ill eventually maybe put in the spacer and ARP head studs (need a 3rd HG what a waste). Gonna worry about tuning and an intercooler before i crack another motor open. I've had a bunch of practice its not too bad the VR.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Stock motor will easily max out a 60 trim.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

New motor errgghhj. Came up after third start. Pulled pan rods are solid. Lifter? Timing chain?


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

dam that sux man .... umm maybe pull the valve cover and check it out ....

well here is a little motivation for you .. i got one of my customers cars running today .. just gotta finish up the intercooler piping and surge tank :thumbup:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Lifters? Timing chain?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

That is very loud for lifters (not saying it can't be just louder than I'm used to). How does the noise vary with RPM? Does it get any quieter with time? I'd put a stethoscope on it (chain cover then valve cover).


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Sound like two things. Valve and I hate to say it knock. You can't truly inspect for light knock as an assembly.
Quickly go to part/half throttle and snap closed and listen for knock changes. Knock quiets on throttle and worsens off throttle. Hope it ain't.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

vergessen wir es said:


> I hate to say it knock.


I did not want to say that either but it does sound like too much contact/knock.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

We pulled the pan there rod bearings are good. Where else would the knock be?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> I did not want to say that either but it does sound like too much contact/knock.


Too much contact with what?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Seems to get louder/faster on throttle from what I remember.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

As in spark knock?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

There was some plastic in the pan not a lot? Doesn't sound like an issue with the chain from what I've seen on YouTube.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

I had a lifter take a crap on me about a year ago, and it sounded just as bad as that; replaced the set, and it was all good again.

If the tapping is emanating from the top end versus the bottom end of the engine, it sounds as though it's related to valvetrain; possibly a bad lifter, obstructed lifter oil feed passage, or worn cam lobe.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

BLSport said:


> I had a lifter take a crap on me about a year ago, and it sounded just as bad as that; replaced the set, and it was all good again.
> 
> If the tapping is emanating from the top end versus the bottom end of the engine, it sounds as though it's related to valvetrain; possibly a bad lifter, obstructed lifter oil feed passage, or worn cam lobe.


:thumbup: putting my head on there reusing HG mk4


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

wish dude would text me back. said if it doesn't work he'd give me my money back... heard from the kid who delivered it to me that hes pissed that i opened it up (i told him i was going to, never heard back) havn't heard anything. I offered to say if its the head just throw me half back (exact price for new lifters). My head on this block will narrow it down. Not sure how hes going to diagnose an internal engine problem with out opening it up  im over time at my buddys place as it is, don't have time to wait an indefinite time to not open it up. 

dont know if i wrote this, pulled pan - rods were solid. nothing bad in pan.

pics







pan off his motor








block surface.








cleaned up








his head








had it all back together two days ago (see video)








now here. paid 300 for long block good working condition. now all i got is it could be something i did and mad that i split it apart from his friend and nothing from the PO.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Run the "new" block with your head and report back. You know your previous head was fine. Secondly, now that you have the suspect head off you can examine the lifters and cams to see if you see any signs of damage.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Check cam timing.. make sure that lines up with the mark on the block and crank pulley

Had the same noise when i first did cams on my car 7years ago... i was off half a tooth...


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

PjS860ct said:


> Check cam timing.. make sure that lines up with the mark on the block and crank pulley
> 
> Had the same noise when i first did cams on my car 7years ago... i was off half a tooth...


mines perfect, but ill quadruple check.:thumbup:

we started it up with my old head I had machined, no smoke. Reused mk4 gasket arp head stud kit, and c2 9:1 spacer. It sounded good just like the first start up. Slowly but surely this exact sound came back. it runs drives and boosts ok, noise seems to be getting louder but I can't confirm that just yet.

why it didn't sound this way on initial started up has me baffled.

oil temps were up around 245, not sure if this is normal for a turbo car. I'm below min on coolant i need to add some more water.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

lets compare to the two shall we :banghead:

my rod caps are tight though? hmmm i guess i can pull the pan again after driving around. whatever is wrong is going to get progressively worse i would assume. Nothing is beeping at me oil pressure or level wise. Oil level on the stick is good.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Not sure how you are checking for rod bearing play but if you do drop the pan again mush your finger over the gap between the rod cap and crank and have someone rotate the crank back and forth minutely. You will feel any relative movement that way. Best to do that at mid stroke so the action is up and down not side to side. Not worth trying to do that test alone. And it's perfectly fine to rotate the engine backward a little as long as it has been run at all after assembly.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Hard to diagnose without being there but again... that sounded eerily close to rod knock. My too much contact statement was implying that it sound less like a small mass issue (such as valvetrain) and more like a large mass issue (eg bottom end). Based purely off your sound clip though, nothing more.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

my head was good. no oil pressure buzz's or flash? i wonder if oil isn't getting where its supposed go? I've had a spun rod bearing before i know what it looks like in the pan... 

I'll try the rotating crank method then maybe. or ill just drivin it until it kaputts.

what about a main bearing? they have bearings right?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> what about a main bearing? they have bearings right?



Correct.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Got sold a shot motor cool. We're gonna check the pan again when my buddy's garage is free again and I have another plan of attack.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

After listening to your video again on something with better sound quality, I am hearing a bit more bluntness in the tapping/knocking sound. Were you able to confirm from where the noise is emanating; i.e., top versus middle/bottom of engine?

If you do suspect rod knock, you can pull your ignition leads one at a time while the engine is running to help confirm it; if the tapping/knocking noise changes noticeably more when one cylinder's lead is pulled versus the others', you've likely found your culprit.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> Got sold a shot motor cool.


I bought a built 3L close to 3 years ago, installed it this past July... it didnt start... took the head off n saw 1-3-5 piston were melted.. contacted the seller, sent him pictures and he tried to make it right by giving me at least the money to cover for a new set of pistons... it sucks but better than nothing:beer:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

BLSport said:


> After listening to your video again on something with better sound quality, I am hearing a bit more bluntness in the tapping/knocking sound. Were you able to confirm from where the noise is emanating; i.e., top versus middle/bottom of engine?
> 
> If you do suspect rod knock, you can pull your ignition leads one at a time while the engine is running to help confirm it; if the tapping/knocking noise changes noticeably more when one cylinder's lead is pulled versus the others', you've likely found your culprit.


swapped head, noise came back. Def bottom end. I'll give that test a try tomorrow.:beer:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

PjS860ct said:


> I bought a built 3L close to 3 years ago, installed it this past July... it didnt start... took the head off n saw 1-3-5 piston were melted.. contacted the seller, sent him pictures and he tried to make it right by giving me at least the money to cover for a new set of pistons... it sucks but better than nothing:beer:


dude said he'd give me my money back, but then got quiet (2-3 days of texting, sending pictures etc) until I mentioned small claims court. Now he might have a change of heart if and when he comes to see it


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

heres the video with my head swapped over, no smoke show like previous head (could have been just start up but after 30 minutes it still smoked) reused mk4 HG and spacer, sealed up nice suprisingly. Don't mind the music at the end random cd playin lol


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

BLSport said:


> If you do suspect rod knock, you can pull your ignition leads one at a time while the engine is running to help confirm it; if the tapping/knocking noise changes noticeably more when one cylinder's lead is pulled versus the others', you've likely found your culprit.


beat me too it, suprised that no one said this when pointing at rod knock.



This is why i wont spend much more than 200 for a used vr


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

kids got a few days to make it right or im taking him to small claims regardless.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

masterqaz said:


> beat me too it, suprised that no one said this when pointing at rod knock.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why i wont spend much more than 200 for a used vr


isn't there a risk of being shocked pulling the ignition leads while its running? don't wanna wind up with a heart attack!


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> isn't there a risk of being shocked pulling the ignition leads while its running? don't wanna wind up with a heart attack!


:laugh: Wear heavy gloves, and avoid contact between other parts of your body and metal parts of the chassis, and you'll be fine; that energy is looking for a way to get back to chassis ground, and won't get you as long as you don't give it a way to get there through you.

Also, the ignition coil can't produce enough current across your body's natural resistance to do harm, other than when it gets your attention enough to make you smack your head against the hood... :laugh:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

its moot, i know its bottom end. Hopefully its not too contaminated down there.


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