# Blow off Vavle on C2 chip VR6T



## dr_dirtg (Oct 7, 2003)

I'm doing a turbo install on my vr6 and want to install a Tial Blow off valve instead of the diverter valve.
I'm a little concerned, I plan to run 10-12 psi, maybe 15 at times, and I'm not sure if it's good to release all that air into the atmosphere when the software thinks the motor is getting it.
I'm running 36lb injectors/software.
T3/T4E 60 trim , .63A/R, pretty much a kinetic setup.

Anyone have experience running a blow off on C2's software? How much boost are you running? Does it run good? Any issues going rich like that?


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Run the Tial diverter valve, problem solved


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## mike minnillo (Sep 23, 2007)

im running C2 60# software on 8psi with a similar turbo to yours (yes, VRT), and running an HKS SSQV, vented to atmosphere. ive had no issues whatsoever.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

mike minnillo said:


> im running C2 60# software on 8psi with a similar turbo to yours (yes, VRT), and running an HKS SSQV, vented to atmosphere. ive had no issues whatsoever.




You're just missing a huge gain in midrange response along with less power drop between shifts.


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## BoostedDubVR6T420 (Dec 4, 2009)

There's really no reason to vent to atmosphere besides loosing all of your boost in between shifts. I have mine diverted and it sounds no different then when it blows off to atmosphere. Plus you dont have to re-spool your turbo after a shift.:thumbup:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

dr_dirtg said:


> Anyone have experience running a blow off on C2's software? Does it run good? Any issues going rich like that?


Re-circ your Mk4. It will save you aggravation. :thumbup:


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

The bottom line is this...your engine has no way to compensate for missing air the ECU thinks is there. Even if is someone tells you it should be fine...your car is generating a temporary rich condition. Yes the car will run and drive around ok...but like stated above ..this brief rich condition will cause a major brief loss of power ect. 

Now there ARE diverted valves that do both vent and recirculate the same time. This gives you the best of both worlds. Granted since some of the air is still being vented...the rich condition will still be there...but less apparent.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

BoostedDubVR6T420 said:


> There's really no reason to vent to atmosphere besides loosing all of your boost in between shifts. I have mine diverted and it sounds no different then when it blows off to atmosphere. Plus you dont have to re-spool your turbo after a shift.:thumbup:


The turbo stays spooled up, a release of air via DV or BOV is the same, it's the difference in losing metered air with the BOV that causes it to run naughty.


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## MiamiVr6T (Jul 24, 2004)

Difference is C2 tuned their software only using a specific setup (using recirculated diverter valves/blow off valves between shifts under vacuum condition). There is no performance gain, just gains in driveability. If you shift it right, the rich condition between shifts not diverting the air back won't really affect anything I bet.


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## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

MiamiVr6T said:


> Difference is C2 tuned their software only using a specific setup (using recirculated diverter valves/blow off valves between shifts under vacuum condition). There is no performance gain, just gains in driveability. If you shift it right, the rich condition between shifts not diverting the air back won't really affect anything* I bet*.


you will lose that bet.


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

MiamiVr6T said:


> Difference is C2 tuned their software only using a specific setup (using recirculated diverter valves/blow off valves between shifts under vacuum condition). There is no performance gain, just gains in driveability. If you shift it right, the rich condition between shifts not diverting the air back won't really affect anything I bet.


:what:LOL "if you shift right"? Are you serious? It is no functioning properly and now you are trying to get the driver to compensate for what the ECU cannot correct. The only way to properly run a atmospheric discharge blow off valve, is to get rid of the air meter all together and go to a MAP based stand alone ECU. Of course you would bet on it cause it is not your car to gamble with. And by the sounds of your response...you do not know...you are guessing


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

.LSinLV. said:


> you will lose that bet.


haha I would bet too....


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## MiamiVr6T (Jul 24, 2004)

Funny how you guys think you know it all. I'll bet all of you because I had a chipped turbo car before I had a standalone and before C2 ever existed. It's not C2's but basically the same principle. Some of you guys live in this so called "Vortex Matrix." You all talk only by what the "community" says and not by real life experience/data :laugh:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I ran mine open atmosphere one time on my car and it ran like butt. Bottom line is if you are using a maf based tune you need to recuculate the air back into the system post MAF. You can however run a bov thats adjustable, you just need to by the recurculator adapter for it and route it back into the turbo inlet track after the MAF. Unless its a drag car that will never see anything other than WOT or you put a turbo on your car to make it sound cool with no intention for it to run properly. Just my .02 from experience here.:thumbup: Porsche's come with DV's you know and they work just fine.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

MiamiVr6T said:


> Funny how you guys think you know it all. I'll bet all of you because I had a chipped turbo car before I had a standalone and before C2 ever existed. It's not C2's but basically the same principle. Some of you guys live in this so called "Vortex Matrix." You all talk only by what the "community" says and not by real life experience/data :laugh:


Don't be so quick to cast judgment, VW's and VR6's are the only cars and engines we've every boosted or built


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## MiamiVr6T (Jul 24, 2004)

That's what I had explained previously though. It's no performance gain but the driveability is easier/better.



KubotaPowered said:


> Don't be so quick to cast judgment, VW's and VR6's are the only cars and engines we've every boosted or built


People need to start thinking outside of the box and not be restricted to all this vortex hearsay. Read other forums (hint: hondas or evos). The people that continuously push the envelope, innovate and put real data out there for people to see more than any other community. And I spoke on experience in this case. But these are the same people who say big cams don't work on a boosted VR6 but on every other car in the world they do :laugh:


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

The fundamentals of missing metered air really has nothing to do with this forum specifically. The same problem would happen with any other car trying to pull off the same setup. :screwy: Believe me...not my first turbo car.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

KubotaPowered said:


> Don't be so quick to cast judgment, VW's and VR6's are the only cars and engines we've every boosted or built


x2 some of us are speaking from experience and also have alot of know how/education, not just internet vortex matrix of thrown around misguided information


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

MiamiVr6T said:


> That's what I had explained previously though. It's no performance gain but the driveability is easier/better.
> 
> 
> 
> People need to start thinking outside of the box and not be restricted to all this vortex hearsay. Read other forums (hint: hondas or evos). The people that continuously push the envelope, innovate and put real data out there for people to see more than any other community. And I spoke on experience in this case. But these are the same people who say big cams don't work on a boosted VR6 but on every other car in the world they do :laugh:


I can tell you right now that I have driven C2 setups with BOV's and recirc setups and the software likes the recirc much better. I have a Mk3 VR with the ProMAF software on it right now, Tial 50mm BOV is vented to atmosphere and it unloads way too much between shifts than it did when it had a DV setup. Only reason I haven't changed it is for the simplicity of the plumbing and cleaner engine bay.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

KubotaPowered,
No elephant trunk Not to thread jack but since you brought it up, how well does the pro maf setup do at lets say 15psi? Does it still hold a good AFR at a lower boost setting? Just asking because I only want to upgrade from the 30# stuff once, not twice. Since I know someone will ask me the classic question, I don't really have a power goal, just going to keep going until the wife says stop or I am broke.:laugh: Doing major rework when I get back from Iraq. If the drivability of the mro maf is better than the 42# I would rather go for the pro maf. I do know you speak highly of the 42# setup, thats why I am asking. 

Back on subject for a second, If you need a larger dia DV and that is why you are switching or considering a BOV then you can run one as a DV with an adapter. You can buy them on ebay for cheap. When I tried once just to see what it would do it was unacceptable to me and pissed me off inbetween shifts. 

MiamiVr6T,
In defense of most on hear we are not all BAMF'S or even have much experience with some of the subjects on here. I my self never claim to know everything, its like you and I having a conversation about an F-16 fighter. It would be a one way conversation for sure. No one wants to jump into a project blind, thats why they ask q's on here. I hope that the Vortex can return to an enviroment were questions will get honest answers. If someone is wrong correct them and move on, not dwell on others mistakes. The reason this place is not like other sites is because of this very fact, pissing matches.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

since you have a maf sensor you need a diverter valve. Mafs meter air coming in and if you blow that off the ecu thinks it is going in the engine so it adds more fuel. Why would you want to run rich?
Hondas and evos have map sensors they are completely different.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

I too have the promaf goodies and i run a BOV unresirculated and a DV resirculated. The BOV doesnt open for anything under 5psi resulting in chatter down low and on the other end the DV wont let enough charged air out after 14psi resulting in resulting in chatter up high, but when i use both i get the best of both worlds. The maf still gets metered air and i have ZERO issues with chatter, holding boost or having to rebuild boost after shifting. just sharing my experience.

So running just a BOV unresirculated im not sure of but running both DV resirculated and BOV unresirculated works great with my C2 software.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

KubotaPowered said:


> I can tell you right now that I have driven C2 setups with BOV's and recirc setups and the software likes the recirc much better. I have a Mk3 VR with the ProMAF software on it right now, Tial 50mm BOV is vented to atmosphere and it unloads way too much between shifts than it did when it had a DV setup. Only reason I haven't changed it is for the simplicity of the plumbing and cleaner engine bay.


Which is exactly what he said...better driveability.

I have a MKIV 24v Turbo, and the old C2 (jeff atwood) tune is very picky as to where the DV/BOV is in regards to setup, but like previously said, you don't lose power, just driveability.

The only noticable chances in the car when going from recirc to atmospheric are as follows:

Car will pop in between shifts *more* than usual, and maybe shudder a little going back into gear when i get back on the pedal.
If revved up it will sound like its going to stall before it levels off at idle again.
Same symptom as above if you're driving at a high RPM and just clutch in.

Other than that, the car is absolutely *the same.*

I prefer mine recirc'd now just because i drive it every day to go to school and work and such so that extra smoothness is desireable. If i were just driving it as a weekend warrior or something i would probably just have just left it open because it simplifies the setup under the hood.

2¢


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I recirc'd my Mk4 because stalling and the CEL was getting old.


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## 16V VW (Aug 1, 2004)

i haven't read the thread but my 2cents

bov's are for children if they go to atmosphere.

if im trying to get laid i take the recirc hose off.

with the hose off the car runs rich when falling to an idle

with the hose on it falls to a perfect idle every time

with the hose off shifting it is wierd going into the next gear with not as much boost allthough i see 17psi at 3,500. 



RECIRC.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

I too have the promaf goodies and i run a BOV unresirculated and a DV resirculated. The BOV doesnt open for anything under 5psi resulting in chatter down low and on the other end the DV wont let enough charged air out after 14psi resulting in resulting in chatter up high, but when i use both i get the best of both worlds. The maf still gets metered air and i have ZERO issues with chatter, holding boost or having to rebuild boost after shifting. just sharing my experience.

So running just a BOV unresirculated im not sure of but running both DV resirculated and BOV unresirculated works great with my C2 software. 

ALOT of people are saying on or the other but im saying BOTH:laugh:


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

97VRT said:


> I too have the promaf goodies and i run a BOV unresirculated and a DV resirculated. The BOV doesnt open for anything under 5psi resulting in chatter down low and on the other end the DV wont let enough charged air out after 14psi resulting in resulting in chatter up high, but when i use both i get the best of both worlds. The maf still gets metered air and i have ZERO issues with chatter, holding boost or having to rebuild boost after shifting. just sharing my experience.
> 
> So running just a BOV unresirculated im not sure of but running both DV resirculated and BOV unresirculated works great with my C2 software.
> 
> ALOT of people are saying on or the other but im saying BOTH:laugh:


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## charlie hayes (Jun 4, 2007)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> since you have a maf sensor you need a diverter valve. Mafs meter air coming in and if you blow that off the ecu thinks it is going in the engine so it adds more fuel. Why would you want to run rich?
> Hondas and evos have map sensors they are completely different.


Evos have MAF sensors.


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## dr_dirtg (Oct 7, 2003)

Well, by the sounds of it - I'll have to divert it back... Too bad I just bought a new Tial blow off valve...


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

I'm sure evos have both bc they come boosted and only map sensors can read boost. My camaro has both also so when people go turbo they usually tune the map and shut off the maf. I was just saying that the 2 sensors are completely different.
The car runs better with the diverter. If you are getting compressor surge get a bigger diverter valve.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> I'm sure evos have both bc they come boosted and only map sensors can read boost. My camaro has both also so when people go turbo they usually tune the map and shut off the maf. I was just saying that the 2 sensors are completely different.
> The car runs better with the diverter. If you are getting compressor surge get a bigger diverter valve.


Evo's do have both, but they absolutely need the MAF unless you run speed density. US evo's only run a 1-2bar sensor so ? can't remember off the top of my head but it only reads a few psi of positive pressure. JDM 8-9s and evo X run a 3bar sensor. 
Honda's also run a MAF, after b-series engine (for the most part if I remember correctly) started running MAF's, there is a handful of reasons why, two are drivability and emissions.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

Speed density is the way to go because there are so many more cells to tune than using a maf. 
Also 1-2 bar is 14.7-29.4 psi but after accounting for atmospheric pressure a 2 bar will read up to 14.7 guage pressure


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

Ah. The FI Forum drama. How many times do we have this discussion per year now? 

OP, recirc is really what you "need" for full function and drive-ability. I recognize most of these names and they're pretty straight up, no BS. 

But, if you must have it vent, I used to install SAFC's back in the day. There's an option to compensate lost metered air that will trim fuel accordingly. Tweaked right, your engine will run flawless. No blips, not stutters. But, you'll trim off some balls between shifts.




GTijoejoe said:


> x2 some of us are speaking from experience and also have alot of know how/education, not just internet vortex matrix of thrown around misguided information


What happened to your old sig, man? It was sweet.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

just get the best of both worlds and get the Tial QR BOV

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...tp&Product_Code=TIL-BOV-015&Category_Code=BOV


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

if you can shift faster then the bov can react...you'll be fine.
but you can't .....so recir it.

:beer:


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> if you can shift faster then the bov can react...you'll be fine.
> but you can't .....so recir it.
> 
> :beer:


LMFAO Best response:thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I thought its was good aswell. I do hate the long hose, but oh well.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

Ah. The FI Forum drama. How many times do we have this discussion per year now? 

OP, recirc is really what you "need" for full function and drive-ability. I recognize most of these names and they're pretty straight up, no BS. 

have u ever ran both? if not than u cant say u "NEED" it for full function and drive-ability. I have had C2's 36# software, 42#software and now the 60# promaf goods. i have ran a DV resirculated and it drove perfect with flutter up top. i then swapped over to just a BOV and it would cruise fine but as soon as i push the clutch in to come to a stop it would stumble/die and it would go pig rich when i shifted, it also wouldnt open up at low psi creating flutter. so i through in both the DV resirculated and the BOV unresirculated and it was back to normal. perfect when coming to a stop, no richness between shifts and most important of all no flutter down low 2psi or up high 29psi

so unless you have ran both then u cant say u "NEED" it. just trying to help texers in the future so they arent scared of what the masses are saying. i run both and have ran them seperately so i speak from personal experience. my car drives perfect, as if there is no BOV but there is:laugh:

not trying to step on toes here :beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Good points, thats why I said if the OP or anyone else wants the adjustability of a BOV just buy a recerc adapter for it and you will be gtg on both ends.:thumbup:


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

97VRT said:


> Ah. The FI Forum drama. How many times do we have this discussion per year now?
> 
> OP, recirc is really what you "need" for full function and drive-ability. I recognize most of these names and they're pretty straight up, no BS.
> 
> ...


You sure put me in my place :what: 

I would steer you in the right direction, but if you're bragging about what you've accomplished with C2's software, then you have much more to learn before you step on my toes. 

To answer your question: Yes, I've run both. What I meant by "need" (notice the parenthesis) was the generalized term. By standard, you need to recirculate. That's a fact proven by engineers much smarter than us. Strangely enough, I've gotten away with atmosphere venting in the past too. 

But, I agree with you as well. The masses get most of their info from the Tex... and the Tex gets it's info from a mix of hearsay and experience. By the time it's actually heard aloud, it's become fact :screwy:

So to help the OP, let's rephrase. You're "supposed" to recirculate. Some folks have gotten away without it, but there's a cost to everything. You decide what you're willing to sacrifice for the BOV sound.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with a chip tune bro. Thank god your hear to save us all.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> There is nothing wrong with a chip tune bro. Thank god your hear to save us all.


I can't think of one thing that's NOT wrong with a chip tune...


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

I can't imagine running standalone for 26x whp, but that's just me. Different strokes.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

AAdontworkx3 said:


> You sure put me in my place :what:
> 
> I would steer you in the right direction, but if you're bragging about what you've accomplished with C2's software, then you have much more to learn before you step on my toes.
> 
> ...


let me rephrase my question. have you ran both at the SAME TIME DV resirculated and BOV unresirculated?
i didnt do this cause i wanted a BOV sound i did it cause i had a DV resirced and it was fluttering up high. my freind had an extra BOV and i didnt want to spend an extra $150 on another DV so i plumbed in the BOV and it still runs EXACTLY how it did with just a DV, only now im running both at the same time. its money sunny


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

97VRT said:


> let me rephrase my question. have you ran both at the SAME TIME DV resirculated and BOV unresirculated?
> i didnt do this cause i wanted a BOV sound i did it cause i had a DV resirced and it was fluttering up high. my freind had an extra BOV and i didnt want to spend an extra $150 on another DV so i plumbed in the BOV and it still runs EXACTLY how it did with just a DV, only now im running both at the same time. its money sunny


there is a problem somewhere in the system if there is no change.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

AAdontworkx3 said:


> What happened to your old sig, man? It was sweet.


It went away with the old vortex 

Probably one of the best quotes I've ever seen... you'll have to say it again so I can requote it:laugh:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

> I can't think of one thing that's NOT wrong with a chip tune...


 We all don't have the $$$ for EMS and tuning bro, got to start somewhere. I guess I am just a chip fanboi...


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

cabzilla said:


> there is a problem somewhere in the system if there is no change.


 nope it's tits


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

obdONE said:


> I can't think of one thing that's NOT wrong with a chip tune...


How bout 282whp on a V1 and 8 psi and a chip tune, or the ability to make 600whp with a turbo and still pass OBD emissions as well as drive it around town, no fuss.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

yup.
30+ chip tuned turbo cars and counting......
100'S of na chip tuned cars....

i think its all good


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I am buying another, 42# setup and I am sure I will be more than happy with it as I was with the 30# setup. Thanks for making an affordable solution C2.:thumbup:


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

97VRT said:


> nope it's tits


doubt that very much. you dont have the *only* vr in the world that isn't helped by recirc. and roll those eyes the other way, I've had turbos on VRs since 2001.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

cabzilla said:


> doubt that very much. you dont have the *only* vr in the world that isn't helped by recirc. and roll those eyes the other way, I've had turbos on VRs since 2001.


i was just using that little guy to look up at your comments not roll my eyes so please dont get your panties in a bunch cabzilla:laugh:. and i am helped by resirc did you read anything i posted:screwy: oh and ive had turbos on VR's since 1990 when they didnt exist:laugh:opcorn:


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

KubotaPowered said:


> How bout 282whp on a V1 and 8 psi and a chip tune, or the ability to make 600whp with a turbo and still pass OBD emissions as well as drive it around town, no fuss.


Do you write chip tunes?


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

OEM ecu's are extremely powerful machines, its silly to think otherwise. What exactly is wrong with a chip tune besides the actual tunner? The capability is there if well utilized.
But don't get me wrong, you're not going to be able to do everything, OE ecu was never intended to control FI applications.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

AAdontworkx3 said:


> Do you write chip tunes?


Affirmative, not for Motronic, no need to with the tunes that already exist.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Hey, do you do Honda p28 ecu's? if so, shoot me a PM so we can talk about it.:thumbup:


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## VOLKS-MAN (Oct 7, 2000)

I have respect for those bringing new experiance to the TEX... but there are many very well educated senior members posting what works and what may be questionable. 

I've been on this forum a long time reading (not a big post guy) and there are always the few that I can count on because of their knowledge. This is why I listen to most of them.

Read into it what you will.


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## 97VRT (Mar 6, 2007)

i agree and cabzilla is one of my favorites too:beer:


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## dr_dirtg (Oct 7, 2003)

wow, that sparked quite the debate...

So I decided I'll buy a diverter valve after all, and recerculate it back. Are there diverters out there that make a nice wooosh sound when recerculating back?? 
A Tial brand would be ideal for me...


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

You'll still hear it, it'tl just be muted.


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## quadcammer32 (Jan 20, 2007)

i ran a tial 50MM BOV on my VRT with the c2 630 file. no issues whatsoever


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> I'm sure evos have both bc they come boosted and only map sensors can read boost. My camaro has both also so when people go turbo they usually tune the map and shut off the maf. I was just saying that the 2 sensors are completely different.
> The car runs better with the diverter. If you are getting compressor surge get a bigger diverter valve.


With VAG turbo engines, MAF is used to meter the ingested air and MAP is used purely for boost control. I would imagine it's the same for Evos but I'm not familiar with them?

MAF is a better, sorry, a more 'preferable' way for OEs to meter air if their cars are sold globally, due to the varying altitudes. Boosted MAP only engines tend to use a second 1 bar MAP sensor to reference atmospheric pressure more accurately otherwise they will run too rich when driving up mountain passes.

One method is not better than the other. All OEs care about is that their engines hit emissions targets and can be driven in the lowest point on earth, aswell as the highest, without any reprogramming of the ECU. They just choose which ever tool does the job. Just because their method is best for the job in hand, doesn't mean it's best for aftermarket tuners. In fact many barriers are put in place to stop aftermarket tuners tampering with the ECUs so that their cars aren't seen to be smogging the hell out of the highway. It's very un PC these days.

A very basic standalone with just an alpha N tune (throttle v rpm) is just as capable of passing smog tests and driving smoothly as the most sophisticated OE ecu. 

As for the original query about dumping metered air, well, engines don't make power when you close the throttle, so it makes no odds where you dump. Again, it's OEs and their emissions targets. An OE boosted motor simply cannot have the AF dropping below 10 every time you change gear. It destroys your economy and washes the bores. Some road captains will enjoy the over-run and gear shift flames of course. The same people pay good money to get the sound of compressor surge too.

Mind you, dumping a lot of fuel into the engine on throttle closure is a poor man's anti lag :laugh:


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