# Negatives with a Manual set up



## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

Looking to go air... on a budget, what are the negatives with a manual v.s analog v.s digital setups? thanks a lot


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## woody89 (Aug 12, 2007)

It's slower(if that is a negative to you) and running the air lines can get tricky. I've had both. I enjoy my manual setup, too simple.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

slower as in airing out?


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

*Manual*

Pros:
Cheap
Reliable
Easy install

Cons:
Fill and drop times aren't to be desired
Lines can be hard to run
Finding a place to install the paddles can be tricky

*Analog*

Pros:
Fast fill and drop
Easier to run lines

Cons:
More stuff to go wrong and its basically the same as manual for more $$
A bit more complex install- still not that bad

*Digital
*
Pros:
Nice to have preset ride heights
Clean controller

Cons:
A LOT can go wrong
The most complex install
Expensive, but well worth it

EDIT: I'd either choose manual or e-level (digital), and nothing in-between. I've had all 3 setups.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

awesome thank you! exactly how many air lines must be ran in a manual set up and where/from ..to


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

cmedubbin said:


> awesome thank you! exactly how many air lines must be ran in a manual set up and where/from ..to


8 in total, 4 from tank, 4 to bags.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

so each bag needs 2 lines a IN and OUT line? also im assuming i would need to run air lines to the paddle valves to wherever i mount them?


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

cmedubbin said:


> so each bag needs 2 lines a IN and OUT line? also im assuming i would need to run air lines to the paddle valves to wherever i mount them?


No each bag just needs 1. 

when you use paddle valves on barb on the back is for supply (from tank) and one is for delivery (to bag). It dumps out the back of the paddle.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

ok so 4 lines from the tank to the bags, then 4 more lines to the paddle valves that are also from the tank, then when i hit the paddle the air is released from the back of the paddle valves? :screwy: anybody have a diagram lol


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

You got it.

Here's the bagriders Diagram, they show to run 2 lines from the tank and split them, but you'll get better fill times if you run 4 right from the tank.

http://bagriders.com/modlab/tech/plumbing diagrams/BR_MANUAL_SETUP.pdf


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

alright the suppply deliver thing is the paddle valves right?


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Correct.

You can see on the back that there is 2 barbs on each valve that the line goes onto. supply and deliver.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

yeah i understand how theres bunch of lines now wow


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

dubbin18 said:


> You got it.
> 
> Here's the bagriders Diagram, they show to run 2 lines from the tank and split them, but you'll get better fill times if you run 4 right from the tank.
> 
> http://bagriders.com/modlab/tech/plumbing diagrams/BR_MANUAL_SETUP.pdf


Why would that change the fill times? Say I used 2 1/2" lines out of 1/2" ports and plit into 4 1/4" lines right before the switches, wouldn't that be the same overall inner diameter of the lines and therefore move the same amount of air volume? So wouldn't that be the same fill times? Then again I am a big ol noob when it comes to air.

I like this thread cause I am trying to decide on air, a 7switch analog or a switchspeed. I just wish I could find a youtube video of a manual air ride on a MKIV with Airlift XL's so I can see the fill and drop rates. Every video is just a little bit off, either they have airlift lifestyles or its a MKV or something. If anyone had that set up I would love to see a video.

Thanks.


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Well if your splitting 1/2" lines into 1/4" it wont change the fill times, but if you split 1/4" lines (which is what the kits supply), the fill times will double because the supplied air is being shared.


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

Word, thank you for clearing that up. That's what I figured is what people meant about the fill times is that if people split the 1/4" line into 2 1/4"s.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

thanks guys


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

if anyone else has tips comments or suggestions please chime in my set up will be for the mkv platform


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## BlackRadon (Oct 1, 2006)

our friend from the great white north covered a lot of info. Just read around on here. There is a ton of info and also check out the FAQ.:beer:


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## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

im running manual, and my only complaint is speed. i used the airlift directions and ran 1 1/4 inch line split in 4 into the paddles. (should have done more homework and ran 4 seperate lines but oh well. its good for now.


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## tylerfisher (Apr 12, 2011)

Twilliams83 said:


> im running manual, and my only complaint is speed. i used the airlift directions and ran 1 1/4 inch line split in 4 into the paddles. (should have done more homework and ran 4 seperate lines but oh well. its good for now.


I did the same thing. It fills so much quicker with 4 seperate lines!

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk


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## Genuine Rolla (Oct 31, 2005)

I have the manual set up right now, I like the fill and dump times, it's not too slow but not too fast either. You can operate your bags without your battery with manual (till the tank is empty). Running lines and placing the paddle switches took a good day or so, wasn't too too difficult, just takes some time and ingenuity.


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## dano17 (Aug 24, 2008)

I love my paddles. I also have two 3/8" lines from my tank to a split into the four 1/4" lines right before the paddles. It sped up the air to the bags process a decent bit, before I had all 1/4" lines. The only thing I dont like about the whole set up is the dump speed, I have no problem with the fill speed. It just seems like the front bags take forever to completely air out sometimes...


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

so you guys suggest i run either 4 1/4 lines to the paddles or 2 1/2 and split them to 1/4 for the 4 barbs? both would be same speed, just 2 less lines correct? also between the deliver and bag i need to run a T fitting for another line for the gauges..., how close can i run the T or does it need to be close to the bag?


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## tylerfisher (Apr 12, 2011)

I ran the T fitting right behind the shifter back in there it doesn't need to be near the bag

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

so i could run the T lets say a foot after deliver line/paddle to shorten/minimize the lines to the gauges which will most likely be right near the paddles, also where do you guys tuck or run all your lines in the interior?


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## dano17 (Aug 24, 2008)

You can have the T for the gauges wherever you want, just remember there are 4 lines you have to connect to the gauges.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

could someone tell me the difference in these 2 kits? all i see is the compressor size, also the ecs kit looks much more complete and also includes the airlift struts in the price? am i missing something? 

http://bagriders.com/modlab/products/MK5-GOLF{47}GTI-FULL-KIT-WITH-MANUAL-MANAGEMENT.html

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_V--2.0T/Suspension/Air_Ride/ES2187574/


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

That difference in the compressor is huge. Look up 380 vs 400 vs 444. Its a world of difference. And also with the ECS kit, you have ECS customer service... not always the best. Also you can't customize the kit through ecs. So that big goofy tank, is the one your stuck with. Same with if you want different rear bags. In my opinion, the price difference isn't worth having to deal with ECS and their horrific customer service and shipping issues.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

hmm so i guess bagriders is worth it? has anyone else dealt with any of these sites


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2010)

Bag Riders will match any price any time. And even if we didn't, it's worth paying more to get your parts from a company that knows all about air ride. 

The differences between their kit and our kit.

-We offer nicer tanks (plus you can choose which one you want)

-We include a nicer compressor by default (the 400c pumps are awesome).

-We include fittings and air line needed to run two supply lines (as previously mentioned in this thread).

-On our site you can choose which rear kit you want (the Performance Series is the better choice).


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

awesome and one more question say i buy a bag with a different port line 3/8 and my lines are 1/4 or 1/2 is there a way or fitting that can reduce or enlarge so i can connect everything?


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## Sobayb6 (Sep 10, 2011)

great info I was debating on manual also, if going manual do you guys recommend definitely going with a 2 compressor set up, and if i go with just one compressor is there a noticeable difference between the viar 400 and 444 for the extra like 45 bucks


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## cb8xfactor (May 31, 2007)

bagriders :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

Sobayb6 said:


> great info I was debating on manual also, if going manual do you guys recommend definitely going with a 2 compressor set up, and if i go with just one compressor is there a noticeable difference between the viar 400 and 444 for the extra like 45 bucks


There is a noticeable difference in readability when proper punctuation is used. lol


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## jettahead99 (Jul 21, 2008)

My manual set up was just finished last night, I love it, so simple, less chance for **** to go wrong.


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## VWskate (Apr 12, 2007)

Big bump for this. A lot of good info. This is the biggest thing the FAQ is missing is a manual/analog/digital difference, pros and cons list, and experience from others. I was all about saving up for the easy street digital set up, but from what I've read it's almost pointless. 

Let's hear someone chime in about that. Also would like to hear someone with an analog set up talk about their experience.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2010)

Sobayb6 said:


> great info I was debating on manual also, if going manual do you guys recommend definitely going with a 2 compressor set up, and if i go with just one compressor is there a noticeable difference between the viar 400 and 444 for the extra like 45 bucks


The 444c is actually a little slower than the 400c though it's also a little quieter. Personally I run the dual 400c compressors on projects.




cmedubbin said:


> awesome and one more question say i buy a bag with a different port line 3/8 and my lines are 1/4 or 1/2 is there a way or fitting that can reduce or enlarge so i can connect everything?


You can hook up any line size to any port size with fittings and or reducers. Even an 1/8" line to a 1/2" tank port. 




jettahead99 said:


> My manual set up was just finished last night, I love it, so simple, less chance for **** to go wrong.


Indeed, it's dead reliable. 




VWskate said:


> Big bump for this. A lot of good info. This is the biggest thing the FAQ is missing is a manual/analog/digital difference, pros and cons list, and experience from others. I was all about saving up for the easy street digital set up, but from what I've read it's almost pointless.
> 
> Let's hear someone chime in about that. Also would like to hear someone with an analog set up talk about their experience.


Shoot me a PM and I can let you in on our pre-order for the new AutoPilot v2. If I were you I would do either the new AutoPilot v2 or Analog. It all depends if you need those save-able presets or not.


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## VWskate (Apr 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Shoot me a PM and I can let you in on our pre-order for the new AutoPilot v2. If I were you I would do either the new AutoPilot v2 or Analog. It all depends if you need those save-able presets or not.


I might get back to you on that, I'll read a bit more into it. As far as preset ride heights go, I'm not that lazy, I could adjust it myself. I'm trying to figure out though, say I went with a manual or analog set up, could I install a gauge such as the DD odyssey 1 or 2? Or it that strictly for a digital set up. If that's the case then I see no reason to go anything between that or full e-level. As long as you have an accurate reading (+/- a psi or two) why would you need anything else?

I guess the only thing I could see is that the difference between the analog management package vs the easystreet digital package is roughly 300$ (both at the stock packages) therefore after getting a nice gauge and the piece to mount it, however you may want to, you're only about 80$ behind the digital package and 80$ is probably worth not running 4 extra lines. Then again you could just do paddles and a gauge and save about 400$. But how crappy is it to use paddles vs an analog controller? Is just just strictly aesthetics and trouble mounting? I can be creative. See this is why i wish there was a mangaement sticky. All this information is hard to find. 

BTW all the figures I just spat out are all based on your website.


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## JAMIEMK3 (Jul 12, 2008)

^^ also curious about the ease of the analog controller vs. the manual switchbox.
opcorn: another air noob taking in a lot of info from this thread.


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## BigMeecH (Sep 3, 2010)

I just went through this debate wondering what kinda mangment I should go. I ended up ordering an analog setup with Avs 7 and accuair vu4 manifold. I wanted something bulletproof but everyone told me to avoid Manual Becuase of the dump speed. My kit should be here next week I'll report back with some reviews


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

thanks for the help guys there really is a lot of good info in here, yea i thought this would be in the FAQ, but not finding it there i ended up asking all these questions


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## onavianva (Oct 31, 2010)

Hi, i have the manual management air lift system. now i want to add this Digital Pressure Gauge that will read my tank pressure and also cause it will read my battery voltage on engine startup.

question is where would i mount this? would i mount this in place of the fill plug on the tank?

thanks.

also im thinking of using teflon to prevent air leaks if i do install it here. should i use something else to prevent leaks?


http://bagriders.com/modlab/products/AIR-ZENITH-LED-DIGITAL-PRESSURE-GAUGE.html


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## vwb5t (Jun 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Shoot me a PM and I can let you in on our pre-order for the new AutoPilot v2. If I were you I would do either the new AutoPilot v2 or Analog. It all depends if you need those save-able presets or not.


got any more info on the AutoPilot V2? pics or specs? price?


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## VWskate (Apr 12, 2007)

vwb5t said:


> got any more info on the AutoPilot V2? pics or specs? price?


Give it a quick google. There's a couple threads on airsociety about it. I know the v1 is ugly but I'm not sure how I feel about the v2. From what I understand they might be coming out with an iphone/ipod/ipad app for it just like the e-level is working on. Also the orange pictured below is interchangeable with a surplus of colors.


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## msheehan (Jan 28, 2011)

im saving up for e-level


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## vwb5t (Jun 23, 2008)

V2 isnt that pretty either, might just stay with my swithbox and VU4 manifold. i like the simplicity but with a blue face V2 might be better looking it really comes down to the price and if it is iphone compatible if it is i might just go with that.


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## ALRDesign (Nov 5, 2008)

VWskate said:


> I might get back to you on that, I'll read a bit more into it. As far as preset ride heights go, I'm not that lazy, I could adjust it myself. I'm trying to figure out though, say I went with a manual or analog set up, could I install a gauge such as the DD odyssey 1 or 2? Or it that strictly for a digital set up. If that's the case then I see no reason to go anything between that or full e-level. As long as you have an accurate reading (+/- a psi or two) why would you need anything else?
> 
> I guess the only thing I could see is that the difference between the analog management package vs the easystreet digital package is roughly 300$ (both at the stock packages) therefore after getting a nice gauge and the piece to mount it, however you may want to, you're only about 80$ behind the digital package and 80$ is probably worth not running 4 extra lines. Then again you could just do paddles and a gauge and save about 400$. But how crappy is it to use paddles vs an analog controller? Is just just strictly aesthetics and trouble mounting? I can be creative. See this is why i wish there was a mangaement sticky. All this information is hard to find.
> 
> BTW all the figures I just spat out are all based on your website.


The setup in my GTI is analog. 8 3/8" valves with an AVS 7 switchbox and analog Easystreet gauges. I have no issues dialing in ride height with this stuff. Personally I don't feel a need to have preset ride heights; it's not a tough task to tap 2 switches before I go to work in the morning. It's all been installed for about 6,000 miles now (problem free), and through a snowstorm a few weeks ago :laugh: As long as your system doesn't have any leaks and is put together right it will treat you well. It all boils down to personal preference though.


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## msheehan (Jan 28, 2011)

cmedubbin said:


> if anyone else has tips comments or suggestions please chime in my set up will be for the mkv platform


hey cmedubbin im saving up for the e-level system and am slowly planning on the setup for my trunk i plan on doing hard lines, 2 compressors and a 5 gallon tank, water traps

my questions are:

how many water traps should be used?

ive heard one inbetween each compressor to the tank then one before the manifold

also i see people talking about something to drain the water or release the air pressure in the tank?


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## msheehan (Jan 28, 2011)

vwb5t said:


> V2 isnt that pretty either, might just stay with my swithbox and VU4 manifold. i like the simplicity but with a blue face V2 might be better looking it really comes down to the price and if it is iphone compatible if it is i might just go with that.


i believe the iLevel is coming out in the summer and i have an iPhone so im pretty excited with a 200 foot range on my own wi-fi


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

msheehan said:


> hey cmedubbin im saving up for the e-level system and am slowly planning on the setup for my trunk i plan on doing hard lines, 2 compressors and a 5 gallon tank, water traps
> 
> my questions are:
> 
> ...




mostly i see people use the water traps between compressor and tank. 1 trap per compressor. and for the drain i think most people use one of the ports that are already facing down, they just plug it and i guess empty it every once in a while if there is any water in there but with the water traps there will probably be little to no water in the tank...just my 2 cents i may be wrong im new to air thats why i made this thread


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## VWskate (Apr 12, 2007)

msheehan said:


> i believe the iLevel is coming out in the summer and i have an iPhone so im pretty excited with a 200 foot range on my own wi-fi


I think the idea of this is pretty cool, but if it runs over wifi then that's terrible execution. Why would I want to only be able to control my car with my phone when I'm in an known wireless range. It's more of a show piece than anything and accuair already has the keyfob which is far more useful than integrating an apple app. I like their idea of moving forward and trying to hit the next best thing but I think it's too flashy for me.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

wheres the easiest place to run air lines under the carpet or under the car? where do you guys mount your paddles or hide and all the lines that go with them lol


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

cmedubbin said:


> wheres the easiest place to run air lines under the carpet or under the car? where do you guys mount your paddles or hide and all the lines that go with them lol


I think that underneath the armrest in the little tray is a really good place to mount it. 










or here

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...rol-Air-ride-review&highlight=manual+air+ride










I do not have air ride but have done a fair share of creeping around in this forum


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

Great thread. I was wondering about how easy is it to accurately adjust your ride height with gauges & manual switches & thought of a few questions.

When using manual switches, is it easy to overshoot your mark on the gauge & have to correct it? Does the pressure stop moving as soon as you let go of the switch, or is there a lag?

How precise are the gauges at consistently determining correct ride height? If all gauges all say the same psi, should your car be perfectly level? (assuming we have no leaks here)

Do temperatures effect gauge accuracy? For example, if i'm used to my ride height being at a certain psi, will that same psi provide the exact same ride height on a 105 degree day vs a 15 degree day? 

Appreciate the info. :thumbup:


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## CiDirkona (May 1, 2007)

Would it be a bad idea to have my gauges and manual switches in the hatch (wagon) until I get around to getting a fancier digital switching kit? I'd hate to cut up dash pieces or run all those air lines up to the dash and then just pull it out later to fancy electric stuff, or even a simple AVS 7 switch box.

Then again, if I go with electric switches later and want gauges up front, I'll still end up having to run (4) 1/4" lines up to the dash for the gauges, right?


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Monkeykungfu said:


> Great thread. I was wondering about how easy is it to accurately adjust your ride height with gauges & manual switches & thought of a few questions.
> 
> When using manual switches, is it easy to overshoot your mark on the gauge & have to correct it? Does the pressure stop moving as soon as you let go of the switch, or is there a lag?
> 
> ...


It doesn't overshoot because it is slower, which is a benefit opposed to analog. You will notice that to expand the bag from full deflated you must fill it with more air than you usually use. Same goes for dropping it from fully expanded, you will need to have less pressure in there to be at ride height. Hard to explain until you do it first hand.

You will also find that pressure is a terrible unit of measurement. It changes with temperature, it can vary side to side. ( ie. my rears were 50 psi and 28 psi to be level). 

I never played with my switches too much when I was on manual because setting up the ride height can suck sometimes. When I did adjust it, I walked around with a tape measure to make sure I was at the correct height. It wasn't always like this, and when I did this the difference was usually only 1/4" from side to side, still enough to piss me off.

Sometimes 80 psi will be your ride height and sometimes it will be 60 psi. As I said before, it will sometimes vary side to side, so it could be 80 psi on one side and 60 on the other on the same day.

The price you gotta pay to be a baller. 




CiDirkona said:


> Would it be a bad idea to have my gauges and manual switches in the hatch (wagon) until I get around to getting a fancier digital switching kit? I'd hate to cut up dash pieces or run all those air lines up to the dash and then just pull it out later to fancy electric stuff, or even a simple AVS 7 switch box.
> 
> Then again, if I go with electric switches later and want gauges up front, I'll still end up having to run (4) 1/4" lines up to the dash for the gauges, right?


You can put it in the back, but you're gonna want to play with them as soon as you put them in. But if you're fine with adjusting from your trunk, go for it.

Yes you will need to find a place for the gauges anyways. I'd recommend switching to 1/8" lines for the gauges, A LOT easier to run and find a space for them. Something that I wish I did.


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## VWskate (Apr 12, 2007)

dubbin18 said:


> I never played with my switches too much when I was on manual because setting up the ride height can suck sometimes. When I did adjust it, I walked around with a tape measure to make sure I was at the correct height. It wasn't always like this, and when I did this the difference was usually only 1/4" from side to side, still enough to piss me off.
> 
> Sometimes 80 psi will be your ride height and sometimes it will be 60 psi. As I said before, it will sometimes vary side to side, so it could be 80 psi on one side and 60 on the other on the same day.
> 
> The price you gotta pay to be a baller.


That seriously sounds like the most ANNOYING thing in the world. Getting in your car every morning (assuming you air out at night) hitting valves and walking around your car like a effin goof trying to see if youre even around. Probably the biggest downfall I've heard this far.

I'm trying to avoid getting that butt ugly autopilot v1 controller yet I see no way around it. Less lines to run, presets, more accurate heights, and leak notification.


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

VWskate said:


> That seriously sounds like the most ANNOYING thing in the world. Getting in your car every morning (assuming you air out at night) hitting valves and walking around your car like a effin goof trying to see if youre even around. Probably the biggest downfall I've heard this far.
> 
> I'm trying to avoid getting that butt ugly autopilot v1 controller yet I see no way around it. Less lines to run, presets, more accurate heights, and leak notification.


It really wasn't all that bad. Let's say I go to walmart and I wanna show off so I air out. When I get back in my car I just air up to my normal psi's and drive off.. The 1/4" difference isn't that big of deal. Plus I can tell if it's off because the steering wheels will be crooked when driving straight, so just pop a bit of air into that bag.

It's what you get for a cheaper setup.

IMHO elevel is the only way to go. At first I had a hard time spending $2K on management for a 10 year old car but then I thought how nice it would be to have, and I can put it on my next car. The main benefit is that it uses height rather than pressure. As we've discussed, pressure sucks. I can now sit in traffic and flip switches without having to wonder if I am still level afterwards.


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

Edit: you just answered my ?s dubbin18. Thanks for the info.

I think I'll be saving for E-level. Being that I'm in New Orleans with terrible ass streets, I'll constantly be adjusting my height to clear manholes, dips, etc. I think a manual system might drive me crazy always wondering if I'm at the right height. 

Seems like having a more consistent ride height would help conserve your tires in the long run if you plan on driving the car a lot, which I will be. Is this true, will your tires wear faster if your riding around with uneven heights?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Niagara_V_Dub said:


> Why would that change the fill times? Say I used 2 1/2" lines out of 1/2" ports and plit into 4 1/4" lines right before the switches, wouldn't that be the same overall inner diameter of the lines and therefore move the same amount of air volume? So wouldn't that be the same fill times? Then again I am a big ol noob when it comes to air.
> 
> I like this thread cause I am trying to decide on air, a 7switch analog or a switchspeed. I just wish I could find a youtube video of a manual air ride on a MKIV with Airlift XL's so I can see the fill and drop rates. Every video is just a little bit off, either they have airlift lifestyles or its a MKV or something. If anyone had that set up I would love to see a video.
> 
> Thanks.


Talk to my buddy 16v_hor. He has the exact setup your talking about, xl's with paddles.


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Monkeykungfu said:


> Seems like having a more consistent ride height would help conserve your tires in the long run if you plan on driving the car a lot, which I will be. Is this true, will your tires wear faster if your riding around with uneven heights?


Yes the tires will wear unevenly from side to side, because it will cause the alignment to be out of spec and it will also put more weight on one side.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

when i run my lines to the bags, should the lines be equal lengths? will this affect fill up time on the bags, making one bag air up quicker if it has a shorter line ? vise versa, will this lead to the bags having different readings on the gauges? thanks


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

A little bit longer won't make a difference, but 10 feet will. Try to keep them within 1 foot.

It won't have a different reading on the gauge but it will fill unevenly.


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## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

haha revoke my previous comment, put a gauge pod in the other night and it was a mission with all the airlines. Starting to piece together an analog kit. 

the manual would be good if it didnt have so many lines and it was a little faster.


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## TheMarkP (Jul 24, 2002)

dont know if anyone said this but the only con to me that stands out is its stinky....errything else is cool.


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## jettahead99 (Jul 21, 2008)

TheMarkP said:


> dont know if anyone said this but the only con to me that stands out is its stinky....errything else is cool.


lol Yeah it does take some getting used to


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## CiDirkona (May 1, 2007)

Do paddle valves need tank pressure to stay shut?

IE -- with electronic solenoid valves, if your tank springs a leak, the 'fill' solenoids will leak backwards into the tank and empty your bags. Does the same thing happen with paddle valves?


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

goodies came in, just getting familiar with the parts and how every thing is suppose to be installed now that i actually have it :laugh:









[/url]
photo-80 by dubbinduh, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## mrgreek2002 (Sep 30, 2002)

Congrats, I'm finishing off my manual management install now a days, took a long time because I was working on it for 5 minutes a day.


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## VWskate (Apr 12, 2007)

cmedubbin said:


> goodies came in, just getting familiar with the parts and how every thing is suppose to be installed now that i actually have it :laugh:


Can I ask what made you pull the trigger with the manual switches? Was it price or do you truly believe it's a better system?


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

Those of you installing manual setups should take pictures of the process and post them here.

i.e. lines going from the tank to the paddles and to the bags; as well as lines from the bags to the gauges.

I'll be buying mine soon and after reading a ton i am still a little confused on some of the stuff, like where you run all those lines through, etc...

KTHXBY :laugh::beer:


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

VWskate said:


> Can I ask what made you pull the trigger with the manual switches? Was it price or do you truly believe it's a better system?


price and also realized after a ton of research how simple of a system it was


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## mrgreek2002 (Sep 30, 2002)

cmedubbin said:


> price and also realized after a ton of research how simple of a system it was


Yeah, THIS!!! ^^^ :beer:


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## mrgreek2002 (Sep 30, 2002)

eurolicious said:


> Those of you installing manual setups should take pictures of the process and post them here.
> 
> i.e. lines going from the tank to the paddles and to the bags; as well as lines from the bags to the gauges.


My lines were run along side the factory wiring harnesses. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

mrgreek2002 said:


> My lines were run along side the factory wiring harnesses. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thanks that is good to know, simply to clarify: just run them up via the tunnel through the firewall?


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## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

eurolicious said:


> Those of you installing manual setups should take pictures of the process and post them here.
> 
> i.e. lines going from the tank to the paddles and to the bags; as well as lines from the bags to the gauges.
> 
> ...



you can run 1- 4 lines from the tank up to the paddles, making faster lifts. from the tank to the paddles i have my line ran through the rear door card and under the plastic piece for the door(cant think of the name) oh and make sure your paddles work haha, my first set were defaulty. buy extra line just in case.


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## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

figured i'd post this in here for everyone considering running various lines from the tank... two 1/4" lines work perfectly...



hyphytrain203 said:


> i ran two 1/4" lines from the tank to my paddles. instead of having the 1/4" lines be front/back specific, i opted to split them left/right. if you've ever used a manual set-up, you never adjust all four corners at the same time in my experience. its usually always adjusting the front of the car and then the back of the car or vice versa...
> 
> by splitting the two 1/4" lines between the left and the right, you are able to take advantage of both supply lines coming from the tank.
> 
> no need to run four or whatever lines from the tank... the pressure reading on the guages would look haywire after trying to adjust with four fingers :laugh:


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

hyphytrain203 said:


> figured i'd post this in here for everyone considering running various lines from the tank... two 1/4" lines work perfectly...


how slow are just 2 lines... im thinkin to run 4 :screwy:


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## slawny091 (Jan 18, 2009)

hyphytrain203 said:


> figured i'd post this in here for everyone considering running various lines from the tank... two 1/4" lines work perfectly...


good info, thanks :thumbup:

question regarding tank pressure...do any of you run a single needle gauge with your dual needle gauge so you can see tank pressure? I just purchased the manual airlift kit. My plan is to run the 42dd aluminum triple gauge plate with my dual needle gauges and a single needle gauge for tank pressure. so in essence, i need to run three lines, split two for left and right side and one line for tank pressure?


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## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

slawny091 said:


> good info, thanks :thumbup:
> 
> question regarding tank pressure...do any of you run a single needle gauge with your dual needle gauge so you can see tank pressure? I just purchased the manual airlift kit. My plan is to run the 42dd aluminum triple gauge plate with my dual needle gauges and a single needle gauge for tank pressure. so in essence, i need to run three lines, split two for left and right side and one line for tank pressure?


yep, sounds good to me :thumbup:


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

took my sub out and cleaned the spare tire area out, i think im going mount a piece of wood down there to mount the compressor water trap etc, wish i could hide the tank to0 but doesn't look like that will be happening, already having a power supply from my amp, i have a question, in the bag riders diagram the pressure switch is suppose to be hooked up to a "keyed power source" i have a small blue wire that was ran also with my power supply and was mounted to "remote" on the amp.. im pretty sure this is the "keyed power source" am i right ..would i just splice in the line? thanks








[/url]
photo-81 by dubbinduh, on Flickr[/IMG]








[/url]
photo-82 by dubbinduh, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

the only problem i can see with using the remote wire is that it will be associated with your head unit... meaning you'll only have power to that line if the head unit is turned on.

i am def not a fan of splicing into a keyed power source. i always suggest for people to go right to the battery with an inline switch... this way you'll be able to shut the compressor down when you don't feel like listening to that crap


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

Twilliams83 said:


> you can run 1- 4 lines from the tank up to the paddles, making faster lifts. from the tank to the paddles i have my line ran through the rear door card and under the plastic piece for the door(cant think of the name) oh and make sure your paddles work haha, my first set were defaulty. buy extra line just in case.


Thanks :beer::beer:


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## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

eurolicious said:


> Thanks :beer::beer:


if you got questions pm me :thumbup:


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

Twilliams83 said:


> if you got questions pm me :thumbup:


I'll remember to do that i still haven't made the purchase but before i do anything i like to research and figure out all the info i can :thumbup::thumbup: Soon though, i'll pull the trigger before next season :beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 5, 2011)

Twilliams83 said:


> if you got questions pm me :thumbup:


Hi Todd


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## Dpaz (Feb 2, 2010)

Lots of great info in here, I should be getting around to putting in my manual air lift set up fairly soon and this thread will definitely help a lot.

Also in reference to the leveling issue I plan on placing one of these http://www.leveldevelopments.com/circular-bullseye-levels.htm somewhere, cupholder possibly. Stole the idea from the crane I use at work. I'm sure it wont be the most accurate thing in the world but I feel like it would do the job well enough and be better than getting out of your car and checking all the time.


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

Dpaz said:


> Lots of great info in here, I should be getting around to putting in my manual air lift set up fairly soon and this thread will definitely help a lot.
> 
> Also in reference to the leveling issue I plan on placing one of these http://www.leveldevelopments.com/circular-bullseye-levels.htm somewhere, cupholder possibly. Stole the idea from the crane I use at work. I'm sure it wont be the most accurate thing in the world but I feel like it would do the job well enough and be better than getting out of your car and checking all the time.


wow thats pretty cool even though it probably wont be that accurate like u said


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

> Dpaz said:
> 
> 
> > Also in reference to the leveling issue I plan on placing one of these http://www.leveldevelopments.com/circular-bullseye-levels.htm somewhere, cupholder possibly. Stole the idea from the crane I use at work. I'm sure it wont be the most accurate thing in the world but I feel like it would do the job well enough and be better than getting out of your car and checking all the time.
> ...


Gentleman i use to go offroading a lot when i lived in Brazil and the Jeep Willys we took offroading always had a little gauge installed where there was a side -view picture of a little suv and also a front view picture of a little suv (this was back in 1993).

The closest thing i found to that which could probably be mounted on the sunroof motor cover thingie on MKIVs is this:

http://www.amazon.com/Company-201-F-gage-Inclinometer-Gauge/dp/B00042K694


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

Here i found it:

http://store01.prostores.com/servle...87-dsh-2012-Jeep-Wrangler-Inclinometer/Detail


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## eurolicious (May 13, 2009)

and this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inclinomete...nSetTopBoxes&hash=item4aaff49126#ht_875wt_907


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## cjbartels (Oct 27, 2010)

useing a level would be a good idea but the car would have to be on a level surface/road for it to be accurate. but i would think it could get you close


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## Dpaz (Feb 2, 2010)

cjbartels said:


> useing a level would be a good idea but the car would have to be on a level surface/road for it to be accurate. but i would think it could get you close


yea i thought about that as well, if you were aired out it wouldnt be bad though because you could just reference where you were sitting before you started airing up and that should get you pretty level.

on another note, i wish they made that jeep level with a little dub instead haha that would be sweet.


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## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Hi Todd


Hi Mr. Sponsor :wave:


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

so today i made the a mounting floor for the compressor, i didnt want to weld or drill any holes so i actually hooked a bolt into one of those oval holes tighten it up with a nut, put the mdf then washers and nuts on top of that came out pretty good and doesn't budge, (dont mind those stains from some saucy food:facepalm:...took a while to clean that)also drilled holes through the grommets at the bottom, thats about it for today








[/url]
photo-83 by dubbinduh, on Flickr[/IMG]








[/url]
photo-84 by dubbinduh, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## slawny091 (Jan 18, 2009)

for those who have installed there air ride setup, what thread sealant do you recommend? Did you use the kit sealant, Teflon tape (i'm not using this), pipe goope or locktite?? i remember reading a thread about this but i can't find it. i'm starting my install in the morning, so all help is appreciated, thanks :thumbup:


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

slawny091 said:


> for those who have installed there air ride setup, what thread sealant do you recommend? Did you use the kit sealant, Teflon tape (i'm not using this), pipe goope or locktite?? i remember reading a thread about this but i can't find it. i'm starting my install in the morning, so all help is appreciated, thanks :thumbup:


Permatex thread sealant. I haven't had one leak since I installed my elevel a month and a half ago.


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## GTIRyanS (May 30, 2011)

*FV-QR*

This thread has deff helped me understand air ride a lot more, but one thing I don't understand is how to choose what size lines to run? Is it preference or are different sizes better for speed?


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## ughson (Mar 12, 2008)

GTIRyanS said:


> This thread has deff helped me understand air ride a lot more, but one thing I don't understand is how to choose what size lines to run? Is it preference or are different sizes better for speed?



I'm also a noob to the air ride world but i believe bigger air lines give faster lift and dump, and of course smaller lines give slower lift and dump. So thats preference.

I'm not positive but I thought i read somewhere that manual setups can only use 1/4" lines, which i think are the smallest/slowest possible. Again, not positive but i figure I'd try and help anyway.


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## GTIRyanS (May 30, 2011)

ughson said:


> I'm also a noob to the air ride world but i believe bigger air lines give faster lift and dump, and of course smaller lines give slower lift and dump. So thats preference.
> 
> I'm not positive but I thought i read somewhere that manual setups can only use 1/4" lines, which i think are the smallest/slowest possible. Again, not positive but i figure I'd try and help anyway.


Ha yeah that makes sense though I did see you can only use 1/4" with manual and people complain about slower lifts and dumps with manual. But what about for the tank gauge with a manual, and is there any other parts when using a manual that you would use bigger?


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## firebert (Feb 25, 2008)

IMO there's more pros than cons to a manual valve setup. I'd only run that or Accuair eLevel.

lift/dump speed depends on restriction. Although 1/4" lines are slower than 3/8" it is the orifice manual valve that is the restriction. I used 1/4" lines with 3/8" valves (or even 1/4" solenoids) and they are much faster. Not to mention 1/4" lines are cheaper and easier to run.


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## ughson (Mar 12, 2008)

not trying to thread jack but is the stinkiness of a manual setup at all unbearable?


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## Miguel Lopez Ma (Mar 12, 2007)

dubbin18 said:


> Correct.
> 
> You can see on the back that there is 2 barbs on each valve that the line goes onto. supply and deliver.


how to put the line in the barbs?


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## jettahead99 (Jul 21, 2008)

ughson said:


> not trying to thread jack but is the stinkiness of a manual setup at all unbearable?


I'd rather deal with the smell for 5 seconds then to spend upwards of $500 more for digital, just sayin'..Momma didnt raise no bitch!


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## BigMeecH (Sep 3, 2010)

jettahead99 said:


> I'd rather deal with the smell for 5 seconds then to spend upwards of $500 more for digital, just sayin'..Momma didnt raise no bitch!


There's analog which is way cheaper then digital and offers way more then manual mangment


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

larry hoovaa


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## jettahead99 (Jul 21, 2008)

I got a negative for you, finding a place to mount the paddeles in a mk3..what a pain in the ass, still havent figured out where to place mine :banghead:


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## miatafreak (Dec 27, 2009)

jettahead99 said:


> I got a negative for you, finding a place to mount the paddeles in a mk3..what a pain in the ass, still havent figured out where to place mine :banghead:


 Left hand side of the driver's knee bar :thumbup:


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## jettahead99 (Jul 21, 2008)

miatafreak said:


> Left hand side of the driver's knee bar :thumbup:


How would I run the lines there without removing the dash or some crazy amount of work?


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## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

Tee's and 90's. Pulling the dash is really not at all needed.


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## ughson (Mar 12, 2008)

cmedubbin said:


> larry hoovaa


hahahahahhahahhaah i see what you did there and i spent the last 7 minutes laughing out loud by myself


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## cmedubbin (May 16, 2011)

ughson said:


> hahahahahhahahhaah i see what you did there and i spent the last 7 minutes laughing out loud by myself


:thumbup:


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## jettahead99 (Jul 21, 2008)

arethirdytwo said:


> Tee's and 90's. Pulling the dash is really not at all needed.


What? lol


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## Minor_Threat (May 12, 2009)

cons of manual setups

running 8 1/4in air lines into a small area 
the lines must be heated to seal properly on the barb fittings 
when you want to go to an analog electric or digital setup, you have to remove all those lines and run new ones 
very slow dump rate
when you want to swap your management your stuck with a big rectangle hole wherever you mounted your paddle switches


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## miatafreak (Dec 27, 2009)

jettahead99 said:


> How would I run the lines there without removing the dash or some crazy amount of work?


Removing the knee bar takes all of 2 minutes. Then just remove the driver side door sill plastic piece, and your rear door card.


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## Bthasht (Oct 6, 2011)

I got a newbie question about speeds. My planned set up is dual 400s, 5 gal skinny, 1/2" lines from tank reduced at switches, then out of switches 1/4" to 1/2" lines all the way to bags.

Is this possible? What kind of dump and fill speeds are we talking 30 seconds or five minutes? Has anyone timed their dump/fill rates?

Manual is all I understand right now, but any links describing analog would be greatly appreciated.

Going on my cc by the way.

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

Bthasht said:


> I got a newbie question about speeds. My planned set up is dual 400s, 5 gal skinny, 1/2" lines from tank reduced at switches, then out of switches 1/4" to 1/2" lines all the way to bags.
> 
> Is this possible? What kind of dump and fill speeds are we talking 30 seconds or five minutes? Has anyone timed their dump/fill rates?
> 
> ...



Bagged cc's are so awesome! Probably my favorite dub on air!! Good luck man! :thumbup:


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

dubbin18 said:


> I never played with my switches too much when I was on manual because setting up the ride height can suck sometimes. When I did adjust it, I walked around with a tape measure to make sure I was at the correct height. It wasn't always like this, and when I did this the difference was usually only 1/4" from side to side, still enough to piss me off.
> 
> Sometimes 80 psi will be your ride height and sometimes it will be 60 psi. As I said before, it will sometimes vary side to side, so it could be 80 psi on one side and 60 on the other on the same day.





dubbin18 said:


> Yes the tires will wear unevenly from side to side, because it will cause the alignment to be out of spec and it will also put more weight on one side.


 
How much of a concern is tire wear with a manual setup for everyone? I'm sure this certainly depends on the quality roads in your area, how much your drive, track, etc. your car. But, I'm just wondering, if the wear is faster with manual controls, could replacing tires end up being a bigger cost than e-level in the long run?

Is this less of a problem/concern with analog controls?


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Bthasht said:


> I got a newbie question about speeds. My planned set up is dual 400s, 5 gal skinny, 1/2" lines from tank reduced at switches, then out of switches 1/4" to 1/2" lines all the way to bags.
> 
> Is this possible? What kind of dump and fill speeds are we talking 30 seconds or five minutes? Has anyone timed their dump/fill rates?
> 
> ...


Maybe 5-6 seconds to adjust to your ride height, which is slow compared to other systems but still not bad.



Monkeykungfu said:


> How much of a concern is tire wear with a manual setup for everyone? I'm sure this certainly depends on the quality roads in your area, how much your drive, track, etc. your car. But, I'm just wondering, if the wear is faster with manual controls, could replacing tires end up being a bigger cost than e-level in the long run?
> 
> Is this less of a problem/concern with analog controls?



Not really a concern if you make sure you're always level and if you get an alignment at your ride height and always drive at that height.


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

dubbin18 said:


> Not really a concern if you make sure you're always level and if you get an alignment at your ride height and always drive at that height.


You had mentioned something about walking around & checking ride height with a tape measure. How often did you find yourself doing that? If I went air, I would have to most likely adjust my height multiple times just on the way to work with the roads around here.

Did you have to do it every time you raised/lowered & then wanted to get back to the correct ride height? Or, was it something to where the PSI to height ratio stayed consistent for the most part, with constant outside air temperature, humidity, etc? In which case maybe you'd only do tape measure checks with temperature changes or every so often?

Thanks for your input!


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Monkeykungfu said:


> You had mentioned something about walking around & checking ride height with a tape measure. How often did you find yourself doing that? If I went air, I would have to most likely adjust my height multiple times just on the way to work with the roads around here.
> 
> Did you have to do it every time you raised/lowered & then wanted to get back to the correct ride height? Or, was it something to where the PSI to height ratio stayed consistent for the most part, with constant outside air temperature, humidity, etc? In which case maybe you'd only do tape measure checks with temperature changes or every so often?
> 
> Thanks for your input!


Well it wasn't only temperature that made differences.

For example:
When you're completely aired out and go to air up, your psi maybe 80 psi. But let's say you are completely aired up at 120 psi and you lower the car to get to your height, your 'normal' 80 psi height will be too high, so you'll need to drop it down to 60 to get to your ride height.

My theory on this is because when the bag has no air in it, it will be shrunk, so you need to get it expanded by filling it to 80. When you are completely full at 120 psi, the bag is fully expanded so less air is needed to be at ride height. Hopefully that makes sense, it's kind of something you learn along the way.

You will be fine to adjust on the fly, and if it's not level you'll know. 

When I had my manual setup I rarely made adjustments, so when I did, I would measure with a tape to make sure I was completely level.

The psi to height stays constant for the most part and you'll learn what works and what doesn't.


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

Appreciate the info, it explains a lot! :thumbup:


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

jettahead99 said:


> I got a negative for you, finding a place to mount the paddeles in a mk3..what a pain in the ass, still havent figured out where to place mine :banghead:


right below the light switch, easy access :heart:


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## joelzy (Aug 20, 2007)

Bthasht said:


> I got a newbie question about speeds. My planned set up is dual 400s, 5 gal skinny, 1/2" lines from tank reduced at switches, then out of switches 1/4" to 1/2" lines all the way to bags.
> 
> Is this possible? What kind of dump and fill speeds are we talking 30 seconds or five minutes? Has anyone timed their dump/fill rates?
> 
> ...


could be wrong, usually am, but i think 1/2" up to and after the paddles is completely pointless as the air can only go as fast as its slowest point which will be your paddles. its going to bottleneck and you'll have ran a lot of thick and more expensive line for no reason at all.

people think paddles are slow, but thats compared to setups that are fast. i can be at my 4x4 height in literally 3-4 seconds. dump is that or a hair slower from 4x4 to the ground.
if im at usual ride height its maybe 1 second to dump

analog is essentially the same concept, except the valves aren't on the back of your switches. instead they are generally in the back somewhere and are wired to your switchbox. so you send a signal via the switch to open a valve, and so on. 
they fill and dump faster but also seem to be less accurate from my experience. its easy to overshoot your desired pressure then you have to try to baby step back. mannies you can let in/out as little or as much as you like.
you also have the potential for more electrical and valve problems as you arent manually opening and closing the valve with your finger, there are components to rely on to do so. 

but thats just my 2 cents, a little biased. 
for me its paddles or elevel... nothing in between.


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## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

joelzy said:


> could be wrong, usually am, but i think 1/2" up to and after the paddles is completely pointless as the air can only go as fast as its slowest point which will be your paddles. its going to bottleneck and you'll have ran a lot of thick and more expensive line for no reason at all.
> 
> people think paddles are slow, but thats compared to setups that are fast. i can be at my 4x4 height in literally 3-4 seconds. dump is that or a hair slower from 4x4 to the ground.
> if im at usual ride height its maybe 1 second to dump
> ...



I'm with this guy on the bottle necking. and paddles aren't really that slow.


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

joelzy said:


> could be wrong, usually am, but i think 1/2" up to and after the paddles is completely pointless as the air can only go as fast as its slowest point which will be your paddles. its going to bottleneck and you'll have ran a lot of thick and more expensive line for no reason at all.
> 
> people think paddles are slow, but thats compared to setups that are fast. i can be at my 4x4 height in literally 3-4 seconds. dump is that or a hair slower from 4x4 to the ground.
> if im at usual ride height its maybe 1 second to dump
> ...



:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Bthasht (Oct 6, 2011)

So my thoughts now are just to go with the V2 digital instead. Any thoughts?

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk


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## Slamtastic (Jul 24, 2010)

Bthasht said:


> So my thoughts now are just to go with the V2 digital instead. Any thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk


Well it would certainly be better than manual, but it's still a pressure based system and those are :thumbdown: in my books.

The V2 is _suppose_ to be a lot better in terms of accuracy than the V1, but you will still run into the problems of having different psi's for a leveled height, but the price of the V2 for what you get is very good.


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## joelzy (Aug 20, 2007)

it'd be nice, but like dubbin18 said, still pressure based.
if im going to drop the coin on anything other than manual it'd be for a height based system(elevel).

i was weary at first, no gauges and all. 
but after the 1600 mile trek to h2o and 1600 back in dorbritz's eos im convinced.
Not to mention the entire time we were there we were rolling at the lowest setting without a single issue. you load the car up, it adjusts, you unload the car, it adjusts, all the while keeping the perfect height. its pretty awesome.


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## Monkeykungfu (May 15, 2009)

joelzy said:


> it'd be nice, but like dubbin18 said, still pressure based.
> if im going to drop the coin on anything other than manual it'd be for a height based system(elevel).
> 
> i was weary at first, no gauges and all.
> ...


eLevel sounds very awesome, just so costly.

Could excessive/uneven tire wear be a possible negative to manual setups? Dubbin18 mentioned earlier that this shouldn't be an issue if you get a good alignment at your typical "ride height" & you're able to ride at that height for the most part. However, if you're frequently changing your height for bad spots in the road & then setting it back to your ride height on smooth stretches, would you most likely find your tires wear faster with a manual setup due to it not being completely accurate?

If tires do wear faster in the case of a frequently adjusted manual system, would it make more sense to go ahead & just save for eLevel if you plan on putting a lot of miles on, instead of burning through tires with a manual setup? 

If the the accuracy is sharp enough with a manual setup to prevent tire wear, I'm sold. :thumbup: If not... :thumbdown:


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## joelzy (Aug 20, 2007)

Monkeykungfu said:


> eLevel sounds very awesome, just so costly.
> 
> Could excessive/uneven tire wear be a possible negative to manual setups? Dubbin18 mentioned earlier that this shouldn't be an issue if you get a good alignment at your typical "ride height" & you're able to ride at that height for the most part. However, if you're frequently changing your height for bad spots in the road & then setting it back to your ride height on smooth stretches, would you most likely find your tires wear faster with a manual setup due to it not being completely accurate?
> 
> ...


if it were a concern, that type of tire wear would occur with any management, even elevel. if you're aligned at setting 2 and lift it to 3 a lot for bad areas you're still taking it out of alignment temporarily.
i don't think its something worth worrying about really. i drive at a height close to where my alignment was but will air up for horrible roads, parking garages and speedbumps. i drive a little higher when coworkers are with me and sometimes lower than my alignment but im not chewing through tires like crazy or anything.

that being said, the only way to combat something like that would be to drive high all the time and not adjust on the fly, therefore your alignment would be high and you'd have the correct wear all the time. then you'd just air out when parked... and have horrible toe-out when dumped for that matter, but who wants to do that? lol i enjoy driving low 

with paddles you can get very accurate, as accurate as you can read on the gauge at least. 
analog you'll get close most of the time but i try(because i can) to get the needles right where i want em.


HTH


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## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

joelzy said:


> could be wrong, usually am, but i think 1/2" up to and after the paddles is completely pointless as the air can only go as fast as its slowest point which will be your paddles. its going to bottleneck and you'll have ran a lot of thick and more expensive line for no reason at all.
> 
> people think paddles are slow, but thats compared to setups that are fast. i can be at my 4x4 height in literally 3-4 seconds. dump is that or a hair slower from 4x4 to the ground.
> if im at usual ride height its maybe 1 second to dump
> ...


So I thought about running 2 1/2" lines split into 4 1/4"s and I consulted MechEng about it for the math and it turns out that 2 1/2"s is overkill because 2 3/8"s have enough ID to flow enough to feed 4 1/4"s. As seen here.

Hmmm lets work this out, you may not be 100% correct here about what your restriction is....

1/4" tubing ID - .17" = .085" radius
3/8" tubing ID - .25" = 0.125" radius
1/2" tubing ID - .375" = 0.175" radius

So to get the flow for all 4 valves at the same time it would be need to be fed by two lines of D size.

A=pi*r^2
A=3.14 * (.085) * .085
A= 0.0227 in^2

So to split the flow from 4 lines of this size into two lines multiply this number by 4 and divide this number by 2.

B=0.045373 in^2
r=sqrt(B/pi)
r=sqrt(0.045373/3.14)
r=.12

Since the radius of the 3/8" tubing is even bigger than the required equivalent airflow the 1/2" lines are really not a necessity.

Just an FYI for ya on line sizing 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End message

Now in theory, 1/2" could increase the fill time cause more air is on tap and move through the line faster. But you still have the choke point of the fitting. I was thinking about manual but I just bought ASCO 3/8 valves. One reason is the dump and fill times and the other is a secret squirrel project that I am working on and will only reveal once I have it perfected. I have said too much already.


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## slawny091 (Jan 18, 2009)

eurolicious said:


> Those of you installing manual setups should take pictures of the process and post them here.
> 
> i.e. lines going from the tank to the paddles and to the bags; as well as lines from the bags to the gauges.


see my build thread.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5531517-alphards-and-air-slawny-s-build-thread


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## joelzy (Aug 20, 2007)

Niagara_V_Dub said:


> So I thought about running 2 1/2" lines split into 4 1/4"s and I consulted MechEng about it for the math and it turns out that 2 1/2"s is overkill because 2 3/8"s have enough ID to flow enough to feed 4 1/4"s. As seen here.
> 
> Hmmm lets work this out, you may not be 100% correct here about what your restriction is....
> 
> ...



:thumbup:whoa... good to know, didn't think about the extra air on tap part, but it def makes sense.
one thing though, and this is a question.
my understanding is that the paddles are the choke point in a manual setup as you could run the same sized lines to an analog system and it would still be much faster.
this leads me to believe that these particular valves themselves restrict the air more than any fitting or line you run. any thoughts?
if that were the case i suppose the tank side could use bigger line for storage but the bag side would be essentially wasting air if plumbed bigger as you'd have to fill the extra line along with your bag.


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## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

Niagara_V_Dub said:


> So I thought about running 2 1/2" lines split into 4 1/4"s and I consulted MechEng about it for the math and it turns out that 2 1/2"s is overkill because 2 3/8"s have enough ID to flow enough to feed 4 1/4"s. As seen here.
> 
> Hmmm lets work this out, you may not be 100% correct here about what your restriction is....
> 
> ...


that theory is incorrect... flow rate is completely determined by the cross sectional area of the orifice and velocity

to increase this flow rate, you either have to increase orifice diameter or decrease frictional losses (ie: shorter lines)


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## slawny091 (Jan 18, 2009)

hyphytrain203 said:


> that theory is incorrect... flow rate is completely determined by the cross sectional area of the orifice and velocity
> 
> to increase this flow rate, you either have to increase orifice diameter or decrease frictional losses (ie: shorter lines)


touche, you sir must have done well in your fluid mechanics classes


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