# 2006 Jetta Mk5 2.5 AT doesn't start/crank



## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Hello,

Long story short

Leaking vacuum pump
Have been filling oil as necessary
Lost control of oil amount as dipstick measurements became useless because the whole dipstick was in oil above max on both ends

Once my wife was driving and car started shaking and check engine light went on. She parked the car and since then I can't start it, it just doesn't crank (accumulator is ok). Pulled the code - P0302 which is second cylinder misfire, but this is nowhere close to general issue which seem to be coilpack as the engine doesn't crank at all.

Do these symptoms looks like jumped chain? How did my wife managed to get to our parking and the car died there? Did the chain jumper more when she stopped the car? Do you think engine is dead? I'm going to take it to mechanic but would like to dig as deep as I can.


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## cdf2.5 (Jun 5, 2012)

I've hardly ever seen a 2.5 jump cam timing as its a chain and not a rubber belt. whats the mileage? if it doesn't crank at all id check the battery and terminal connections (ik seems kinda dumb but worth a shot) if that checks out look at the starter wires and connections/battery terminals for corrosion or breaks. you said it doesn't crank meaning not whatsoever, or fires up and then dies almost instantly?


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## cdf2.5 (Jun 5, 2012)

i very highly doubt the engine is totally fried, i would investigate more before condemning it


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

65k miles on the clock.

A lot of people have jumped timing on VW 2.5 2005/2006 engines: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...problem-with-timing-chain-on-2-5-L-Gas-engine

The engine doesn't crank at all, when I hit ignition nothing happens, only lights go darker. Radio/lights etc. work just fine, I had acura euro-tsx famous for it's weak battery and trust me, I know how car behaves when battery is dead. I also know how car behaves when coilpack is dead and my case is definitely not related neither to battery nor to coilpack.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

the engine would have sounded horrible the days leading up to the timing jump.

check the oil again. i don't understand why you say you couldn't read the dipstick. if the engine is off for a few minutes the oil should drain down enough to get a good reading. if it still shows that it is too full, then it's probably too full.

get your battery tested first.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

Your case is not related to timing issues either. The engine should crank in any of the cases mentioned above. IMO it is either a power supply or a starter issue. Dimming lights mean your battery is still able to crank the engine. Btw, you've lost control of dipstick when you got oil level above the maximum mark. Do you think you've overfilled engine?

I think you've blown the starter but it should be checked first to make sure starter is consuming power.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Ronny Bensys;90176970Dimming lights mean your battery is still able to crank the engine.[/QUOTE said:


> Why doesn't it crank it then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

once more; get your battery tested.

all kinds of funny stuff can happen to these cars when the battery is too weak. even if your lights come on and your accessories work.

you have to start with the simple stuff. like getting the oil level reading were it is not above the max fill line. too much oil can damage your engine. remove half a quart from the filter housing and see if the level on the dipstick changes.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

kinetek said:


> Why doesn't it crank it then?


 Personally I think your battery still has enough power to turn the shaft, even it may not be able to fire it up. But do not try cranking anymore. Trying more and more will not do any good. In any case, take your battery out and get it tested first.



kinetek said:


> I can't say. I haven't been checking the level for a while and it's been dripping and dripping, after each drive my wife had a few drops on the asphalt, sometimes more, never a lot though, but even a few drops mean smth. is wrong. After 500 miles I checked the dipstick and it already had more than max level, but that's weird because 500 earlier I filled the engine to almost max level, considering the oil is dripping I think something is wrong here.


:facepalm: Do you have necessary equipment? You have to inspect it from bottom and find out which point is dripping. Drain some 1L of oil from filter housing and check the dipstick again. Do it until you get a level at between min. and normal. See if the drained oil has signs of gas or coolant. Do not crank the engine yet. Try remembering did you notice a black or grey exhaust smoke when the car was running last time before it was parked?



kinetek said:


> How could I do this? My wife started the car normally, traveled 0.5 miles, check engine light came on and car started acting weird (like if it actually had misfire issue), she traveled another 0.1 of mile and parked the car near my condo. The car has never started since then.


Find somebody near you with VCDS, Carista or Torque and read the OBD codes and post them here. So first you have to complete simple stuff. Checking the starter is the final step. And you need somebody to read multimeter while you'll start the engine.
Watch this video. It is located there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpUlkhhPfE


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Ronny Bensys said:


> Personally I think your battery still has enough power to turn the shaft, even it may not be able to fire it up. But do not try cranking anymore. Trying more and more will not do any good. In any case, take your battery out and get it tested first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yestearday I did this:

Turned on the lights, tried to crank the engine, the lights dimmed when I did this, in internet it's said that this is a nice symptom of seized engine. I will try to use the battery from my G35 to start the car but I'm pretty sure it's not the battery (I with it was though). Code is P0302 and it's vacuum pump that's dripping oil. I'm going to check if it works with the other battery then will try to crank the engine with a breaker bar and if it doesn't work I'm taking it to mechanic. I have some experience with the cars and it seems to me that this one is dead. :banghead: So far for 65k miles for VW.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

Be 100% sure what direction you are moving that breaker bar. If you move in the wrong direction, your valves will interfere with your pistons and most likely bend.

you should test your battery, not get a different one out of a different vehicle.

Put the battery in the trunk of your g35 and take it to get tested at the parts store for free.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

So I spent a while today with my cars as the weather was shiny, I removed the cover, coilpacks and sparks and tried to crank to engine. It cranked with nice fountains out of the coil wells as I forgot to disable the injection At least fuel pump works 100%. The engine cranked as well, I assembled everything back and tried to crank the engine, it moved a bit and stalled again. I took the battery from my G35 and the engine now cranks but doesn't start, I'll leave it there for a while as maybe sparks are wet, otherwise I have two questions:

1. Is this a good sign the car cranks? 
2. Why doesn't it start now?

I will try again with G35's battery when I have a chance and check what happens then.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

good signs.

looks like things are going to be pointing to a bad crank position sensor.

will it idle at all, even if it is two seconds?


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

le0n said:


> good signs.
> 
> looks like things are going to be pointing to a bad crank position sensor.
> 
> will it idle at all, even if it is two seconds?



No idle at all.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Spent another hours or so with a car. Still doesn't start with another battery. I see RPM arrow go up to around 200rpms but still no start, moreover, low oil light started appearing. I'm taking it to mechanic, this is obviously not coilpack or sparks. I think chain jumped.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

I think the engine ran out of oil and dried what was left inside.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Ronny Bensys said:


> I think the engine ran out of oil and dried what was left inside.


I also think the engine is missing oil. However, look







at the dipstick.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-x-h_gwLFJ0bFlHTXVFaXR2am5LMk56WERfOTlrMHVUSldz/view?usp=sharing


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

kinetek said:


> I also think the engine is missing oil. However, look at the dipstick.


No. Missing oil is something different than running an engine out of oil. Your engine dried out what was left from your previous fill while it was losing from vacuum pump. Then you have filled once more. Now your dipstick is showing your last fill. Removing head cover will clear all questions. Oil pan should be dropped as well to further inspect crankshaft connections from bottom. I don't think anything of timing jump. Timing jump would lead to compression & firing disorders which is another story and isn't related to what you described.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

1. The oil you last filled is not lubricating internal parts anymore because previous oil fried up and stuck all internal fittings and connections.
2. Do not try cranking anymore, cranking more will make things worse. Most likely oil pump is covered with dried oil too.
3. Needs major overhaul.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Ronny Bensys said:


> 1. The oil you last filled is not lubricating internal parts anymore because previous oil fried up and stuck all internal fittings and connections.
> 2. Do not try cranking anymore, cranking more will make things worse. Most likely oil pump is covered with dried oil too.
> 3. Needs major overhaul.


The problem is dipstick had same measurements before I filled the oil. :banghead: I think something stuck somewhere and the dipstick became useless. Anyways, I've surrendered my hopes, learnt smth. new and will take it to a mechanic.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

Ronny Bensys said:


> 1. The oil you last filled is not lubricating internal parts anymore because previous oil fried up and stuck all internal fittings and connections.
> 2. Do not try cranking anymore, cranking more will make things worse. Most likely oil pump is covered with dried oil too.
> 3. Needs major overhaul.


No offense, but what in the world are you talking about? Hah hah. 

Kinetek, drain your oil into a clean container so that you can measure what comes out. Once it stops draining, clean your dipstick off and recheck the level a few more times. You shouldn't get an oil at all.

Go ahead and drain the half quart from the oil filter housing too.

Now measure how many quarts you removed. Let me know that number. 

Add 6 quarts back into the system. Be sure to use VW 502.00 spec oil for the refill; nothing else.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

le0n said:


> No offense, but what in the world are you talking about? Hah hah.
> 
> Kinetek, drain your oil into a clean container so that you can measure what comes out. Once it stops draining, clean your dipstick off and recheck the level a few more times. You shouldn't get an oil at all.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid this isn't going to work. I live in a condo and already had one complain because I was changing my tire in the condominium parking lot. Parking lot is not a garage bla-bla-bla:banghead:


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

my bad, i thought you had a place to work.

then let us know what the mechanic says.

i'm still guessing that it is the crank position sensor.

good luck.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

le0n said:


> my bad, i thought you had a place to work.
> 
> then let us know what the mechanic says.
> 
> ...


No problem, I wish I had a place to work too.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

le0n said:


> No offense, but what in the world are you talking about? Hah hah.


I am talking about this.  Engine seized because of running out of oil for a long period of time. Oil eventually decomposed and blocked the crankshaft.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

i doubt that is what happened to his engine, but thanks for sharing.

that looks like someone ran it with low oil for a long time and cooked the conventional oil between extended oil change periods.

if it failed, i bet it was due to not having oil at all, or conventional sludge buildup blocking the oil pick-up screen.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

The story continues:

I called AAA and in 30 mins the tow truck was at my parking lot. Nice service. The guy from AAA took the jump started and started cranking the car and hitting pedal to the metal, in 5 mins the car started with a bunch of white smoke The guy was so smart I gave him a tip, it's a pleasure to deal with such guys. The car threw the same code: P0302, but it seems weird as I removed all coilpacks while checking them and I highly doubt I put them in exact same order as they were before. 

I took the car to mechanic to check oil leak and this misfire problem. Will keep you posted .


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

i did tell you twice to get your battery tested 

did you drive the car to the mechanic or did AAA take it for you?

there is a vacuum pump delete kit you can get online. it's cheaper than getting a new vacuum pump.

here: http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Audi--S3--2015--2.0T/Engine/Accessories/Spulen-2.5L-Brake-Vacuum-Pump-Delete-Kit.html

the misfire could be N80 valve related. hard starts are also a symptom of a bad N80 purge valve. make damn sure the mechanic swap tests the coil packs before purchasing another one. otherwise, you may end up with all new coil packs and the same misfire code.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

le0n said:


> i did tell you twice to get your battery tested
> 
> did you drive the car to the mechanic or did AAA take it for you?
> 
> ...


The battery is dead for sure, but it didn't start with infinti's battery either. :laugh: Probably I had to crank for 5 mins like AAA guy did. AAA towed the car for me. First I thought about driving it to the mechanic as it's only 1.5miles away but I realized I didn't want to call AAA again in the middle of the road. If everything goes fine I'm definitely going to order vacuum pump deletion kit to get rid of that leaking piece of junk. :banghead: The mechanic was recommended to me by another reputable shop, I found nothing but good reviews about him in google and the guy from AAA also told me that mechanic is great, funny enough, when he dropped my car there he picked up another one there right away:laugh: We'll see if he's as good and his reviews. We had a 15 min conversation about the cars they built and I found out him to be a nice person to talk to.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

oh, and as i mentioned before, it still could be the crank position sensor.

after extended cranking, i believe the system uses a different sensor (maybe the cam position sensor) to read the relative crank position; letting the engine start/run.

good luck.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Mechanic called back and quoted 280 for fuel injector change as it went bad and started dumpig fuel. Is there a diy for mk5? I havent found it yet but have searched from my mobile so far. Is this an easy job?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

it's almost too easy. however, i'd be damn sure that an injector is leaking. your mechanic may be guessing. also, you'd be getting error codes prior to today from running too rich; which, you weren't. another also, is that your engine would be running and would not necessarily be having hard-start issues.

if it were me and an injector was the suspect for the misfire, i'd physically mark the "bad" injector and swap the position of the injector with cylinder #5. the error code would follow the bad injector, correct? if you get the same P0302, then you'll know it wasn't the injector. this keeps you from dropping the cash on a new injector.

you're looking at an hour of easy labor for an injector swap. and the oem vw injectors are around $100 each.

here are the steps to get to the injectors. (snipped from my intake manifold diy)

You'll need to remove your engine cover before performing the next steps.

Take the M10 triple square bit and remove the two bolts holding the injector harness bracket that runs across the the top of the intake manifold.









Once you remove these bolts, you can un-clip the two wire harness clips holding to this bracket and disconnect the fuel injectors and any other sensors in the general area.









After everything is disconnected, go ahead and maneuver the bracket out of the socket to completely free the bracket. You'll have to pull to the passenger side to slide it out of the hole.









Now remove the two T20 torx screws that attach the fuel rail to the intake manifold.









Once they are removed, you can gently and evenly pull the fuel injectors/fuel rail directly outward. I didn't feel like opening up the fuel lines, so I just positioned the fuel rail/injectors to where they were out of the way.









find a friend with a house or garage where they can let you work on your car.

have your mechanic email you a VDCS/VAGCOM auto-scan. if he doesn't have this tool or a VAG tool to read VAG proprietary error codes, find a different mechanic. some vw problems can not be solved with your everyday obdii code readers. there could be other codes that we're not addressing.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Here's an update from me:

I paid 250 to mechanic for oil/filter and fuel injector change, check engine light is now gone and the car runs fine, I've only tested it for 15 miles but I hope it will run fine later too. Seems like fuel injector was the culprit.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

This is a good update.

That's a reasonable price for the repair too.

Thanks for the update.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

le0n said:


> This is a good update.
> 
> That's a reasonable price for the repair too.
> 
> Thanks for the update.


I agree, thanks. Im going to install spulen vacuum kit to get rid of thebleak, install seem to be pretty easy for my tools. I think i also found explanation of weird dipstick measurements, the oil had gas in it due to leaking injector, hence, level above max.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

a leaky injector would only leak into the cylinder and get burned. it would not come in contact with the oil reservoir.

spulen kit is cool. i want to get one before mine ever leaks.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

le0n said:


> a leaky injector would only leak into the cylinder and get burned. it would not come in contact with the oil reservoir.
> 
> spulen kit is cool. i want to get one before mine ever leaks.


Well...I'm yet to learn more about engine, but mechanic told me there was petrol in the oil, dipstick smelled gas too, new oil doesn't smell.:thumbup:

I've ordered spulen kit for 100$ shipped (a few days ago it was less but back then I didn't know if I would ever need this kit), mechanic quoted this job for 200$+parts, I've watched a few vids and read the manual and it seem to be a piece of cake, I just need the sunny day. Thank god no 19mm seized lugs like on my Infiniti's rear rotors I've learnt that in America it's better to spend 100$ on vacuum deletion kit than to take the car to mechanic for major repair so it was easy to convince myself to buy the kit.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

i'm more inclined to believe that the fuel entered through the fuel vapor lines due to overfilling the gas tank. even so, that may be rather difficult without a vapor valve that has failed. still, i don't know the layout enough to say where the fuel could have entered through the vapor lines.

the only other way is that someone put the petrol substance directly in the oil reservoir.


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

Today I installed spulen vacuum pump deletion kit. Took me roughly 3 hours and installation went pretty smooth, not a single dropped nut Biggest part was unscrewing the lug which is located under the vacuum pump, at a certain point I thought that I stripped the screw as my screwdrived started slipping and I thought I was done but thankfully it was the bit adapter so I was safe. Now I have a vacuum pump with a few hoses sitting here so if anybody interested let me know.

I tested the car for around 5 miles and it seem to run strong, we'll see if the leak is gone.


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Good work. :thumbup:


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## kinetek (Nov 15, 2015)

kölsch said:


> Good work. :thumbup:



:laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbup: In my native country I have the same joke about Renault. You should thank God it's not sold here. VW seem to be a good alternative though. I had no idea how to fix a car before I bought Renault. Now I get VW and soon I'll be confident enough to build my own car
:laugh:


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

congrats, man.


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