# Owner Maintenance of Roof Seals



## Klunk (Feb 23, 2007)

*Owner Maintenace*

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.
I have read lots of posts on this site and find it quite amusing that many of the readers/posters to this forum are trying to put the blame on to the owners of their brand new eos(s) for their cars leaking because they have not followed some so called maintenance procedure.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
For starters, if a car can be driven for a year or longer before it requires mechanical service and inspection, then the same car should be able to be used for a year, ideally longer before any sort of maintenance is required on the roof seals. 
Roof maintenance should not be required on a car that is only weeks old.
If a car is designed correctly and built to that design using suitable materials then it should not leak. Period.
So, for the car to be leaking, then either the design is flawed, or the car has not been built to the correct tolerances, or the wrong materials are being used, or a combination of these.
To blame leaks on the owner is just nonesence.
For the record, my wife's eos has started to leak three weeks into ownership, which also happened to be on the first day that she had left the car out in the rain.
She is an occasional user, her car is usually in our garage, but now spends more time in the VW garage because of problems.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*

Sorry to hear this.. Have you asked your dealer to read through Michael's post regarding solving this problem and then try applying the solution. If so did it solve the issue in your case ? 
FWIW my EOS does not have the advantage of being garaged and has sat outside through some fairly heavy rain storms (at least by northern CA standards) and has not leaked once, so the your conclusion that this is a design or materials issue is not born out in my case. Tolerances of course can vary from vehicle to vehicle and can also be adjusted in most cases. 
Anyway sounds like the first step would be to ask your dealer to perform the seal lubrication outlined in Michael's post and see if that solves the issue, and then put right any secondary damage the leak may have caused.


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (mark_d_drake)*

I don't think anyone in this forum is trying to blame owners for their roof looking. I feel that most people in this forum are focusing on solutions and resolving problems, and lubricating the seals properly seems to be a solution stopping many people's leaks. It is still a new vehicle that dealer technicians do not have a lot of time to spend with. Sure, I wish that the dealer service departments were more consistent. And I agree, there is no reason why a 3 week old car should be leaking. But we are already hearing of many dealers adding the seal lubrication to their PDI routine. I can see it becoming a routine for when cars come in for service. In fact, I took my car yesterday for its 5K service and asked about purchasing a bottle of the Krytox. They said they would do it for free.
I am sorry to hear about the leaks on your Eos. Hopefully it will be an easy fix and you guys can go back to enjoying your new car.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Turbocrazy)*

I agree with Turbo, although there have been some posts made here that suggest seal maintenance is the responsibility of the owner, I think the majority of us disagree. If the seals require regular maintenance in order to function correctly, then so be it, but the owner should not have to be concerned about this. 
Routine seal maintenance should be performed, as required, during scheduled maintenance.
But as Turbo pointed out, this is a new car, so it may take VW a while to become aware of specialty service requirements.
I sincerely hope your leak problem is correctable with a simple application of lubricant, and that your particular service department will then adapt their service procedure to include routine seal maintenance on the Eos.
Knowledge is power, and the more owners that visit this site, become aware of the seal maintenance requirement, and pass that knowledge on to their service department, the sooner this procedure will become part of the scheduled maintenance.
Along with the others, I'm very sorry to hear you are experiencing this problem, and hope they are able resolve it for you immediately.
Kevin










_Modified by just4fun at 12:49 PM 3-9-2007_


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

Ok, let me say this..if it did not say in the MANUAL that we would need to maintain the seals on a regular basis with a non silicone lubricant and the roof leaked I would be extremely unhappy. But to me this is like changing the oil, I can't be mad if I am not changing the oil and my engine blows up. So, I can't be mad if I am not lubricating the rubber on the roof components and the roof leaks.
Having the seals lubricated at the dealer as part of the routine maintainance would not be bad though.
I had my roof leak after I took it through a touch free wash, to see if it would leak, but otherwise its been leak free. I have some lubricant on order from the dealer when I go to get my 5000 mile service done next week. 
I am sorry you are having problems with your Eos, I hope you can get it resolved. 
Based on your name and what is underneath your name you came on the forums to stir up unhappiness instead of coming here for a solution.
I am sure you are also using the same kind of warm fuzzy tactics with your dealer as well. 



_Modified by EosEnthusiastNB at 1:02 PM 3-9-2007_


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

EENB
Early (UK) manuals did not include the advice, they do now. Ok? 
John


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: (EosEnthusiastNB)*

I can understand klunk's frustration though since the vehicle is so new. Oil changes are regular items, but imagine how frustrated you would be if your car needed an oil change 2-3 weeks after buying it. 
I think the concern is that the dealer's should be lubricating the seals as part of the PDI routine. Further down the road of the vehicle's life, I can see how this becomes more of an owner responsibility. Convertibles, whether soft or hard top, have always required more maintenance from their owners.


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## Klunk (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
Routine seal maintenance should be performed, as required, during scheduled maintenance.
But as Turbo pointed out, this is a new car, so it may take VW a while to become aware of specialty service requirements.


Good afternoon, and thanks to you three guys for your replies.
I too would have absolutely no problem if the roof seals require attention, maintenance, treatment or lubricating once a year during scheduled servicing. 
I would not even mind if there was an extra charge for this service as I do not expect to recieve any service of any kind free of charge, but we have not yet reached that stage where it is due a service.
My wife's car is now 10 weeks old, has been back to the garage four times, the last time it was there for 2 weeks, We didnot tell them what to do, but simply asked them to fix it, after all it is not the position of a cutomer to instruct a service department in what to do.
My wife suffered the indignity of a technician telling her that it was up to him to check the leak (fair enough) and that he would be the one that determines if the leak was "acceptable"
Well, this was like a red rag to a bull to my wife, who informed the technician that as she was the customer, then she would determine if the leak was acceptable (even fairer, as it is her money that has been spent on the car) 
To say that she is unhappy, is a very big understatement


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## Klunk (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: (EosEnthusiastNB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EosEnthusiastNB* »_
Based on your name and what is underneath your name you came on the forums to stir up unhappiness instead of coming here for a solution.
I am sure you are also using the same kind of warm fuzzy tactics with your dealer as well. 


I do not own a computer, I am "home on leave" and after discussing things with my son, he has let me use his computer as he likes his gadgets etc. He has allowed me to use hie email etc and he has created a user name etc
I have not come here for a solution, as that is up to VW.
I do think that a wider audience should know about the problem, and if that is stirring up unhapiness, then so be it.
As for using fuzzy tactics, well lets just say that Mrs Klunk is one formidable woman (trust me on this one)
She would have used the up most manners possible when talking to the dealers, and I think that she has been very reasonable in her discussion with them so far.
According to her, things only started to "happen" when the last letter she wrote was on her company's headed paper, as she is a Barrister, then they now seem to want to know.
Also, I have the feeling that the problem is beyond rectifying by lubrication alone, as this would not take the best part of two weeks to do.


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

Klunk
Hello, sorry to hear about your car. In the UK we would know we all use your name for the sound of a car door closing, and nothing pejorative. I happen to think you were quite gentlemanly in not responding to EENB's unpleasant remarks, by the way. I wonder what he would be like if his car got a leak, or three. Now, the matter at hand; I got mine in mid January, garaged like yours, very rainy driving though, but no leaks at all. It's a great car, so far. It has just started to squeak a tiny bit, and I reminded the garage, nicely of course, that they had promised me Krytox, and we remain on the best of terms. Hope you get a satisfactory solution, especially as we seem to have the same choice of wives and cars!
John


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (Klunk)*

Klunk
I think that if you are not used to this kind of forum you may be a little suprised as to some of the reaction here. Most of the people in this forum are enthusiasts as well as owners, and this forum is much more orientated towards discussing problems and attempting to find solutions that simply stating that problems exist.
I do not think that is anyone here who would disagree with the statement that the vehicle should not leak. 
However as enthusiasts who in general love the car, and for most of us, VW vehicles in general, rather than simply complain about a problem and wait for the problem to be solved, we are prepared to help try and determine what the cause of the problem might be and what action needs to be taken to address the it.
Once we have some kind of consensus about what that is we will then try to inform anyone who will listen (and may be some who won't) as to what action needs to be taken to address the issue. The list of targets for this include VWofA, VW corporate and our local dealers.. 
There are quite a few people who have printed out the complete details from the first post in the forum list, taken it to the service manager at the local dealer and found that this has helped resolve the issue. 
Anyway, I think the best advice we can give you at this point, assuming that you came here for advice, is to print out the content of this post 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3087297
and take it in to your service manager and see if it helps them resolve the issue.


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 2:05 PM 3-9-2007_


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

Mark
You hit the nail on the head, it shouldn't leak. Just about all problems are solved by the dealer, as we would expect. But... come on, is it really up to the customer to educate the dealer? That's a scary flipside to the future. Let's hope our NHS doesn't have the same (island)grey sky thinking. 
John


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (GurnyGub)*

John
I agree, in an ideal world we shouldn't have to educate the dealer, but as we all know the world is far from ideal.
Sometimes the Internet can move information around much faster than the internal communications process of a a large corporation. I should know, I work for one that who's claim to fame is being part of the Internet revolution, and it's amazing how much information related to the products I'm responsible for first comes to my attention as a result of Internet discussion groups.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the reason that the VWVortex exists is not as a place for people to air their grievances, no matter how valid they may be, but as a place where people can come together to share the experience...
Looking back at Klunks original post 
"Then the same car should be able to be used for a year, ideally longer before any sort of maintenance is required on the roof seals. 
Roof maintenance should not be required on a car that is only weeks old"..
AFAIK the EOS and the C70 are the first cars to use a stacking, rather than a folding mechanism for the roof, so it's not clear whether or not there is something inherent in this design that makes it require more frequent maintenance (I sure as hell hope not, but there is no existing body of data that could be used to prove this statement either way). Even then the EOS is the first vehicle to have a sunroof / stacking roof combination, that a reason quiet a few of us purchased it in the first place.
"If a car is designed correctly and built to that design using suitable materials then it should not leak,. Period. So, for the car to be leaking, then either the design is flawed, or the car has not been built to the correct tolerances, or the wrong materials are being used, or a combination of these.".
You and I are both lucky enough to have cars that to-date have not leaked so the evidence does point to the fact that design and materials used are not fundamentally flawed. Tolerances may be the issue, and if so the dealer should be capable of adjusting the tolerances to solve the problem

"To blame leaks on the owner is just nonsense.". 
I don't think anyone has blamed the owner. It has been pointed out that some manuals do outline a seal maintenance routine that if not carried out may be the cause of problems down the road...

"My wife suffered the indignity of a technician telling her that it was up to him to check the leak (fair enough) and that he would be the one that determines if the leak was "acceptable"
I can fully understand this statement.. IMHO the technician was out of bounds with statement. There is no 'acceptable' leak.. 
"I have not come here for a solution, as that is up to VW."
IMHO this statement is about as acceptable as the VW technicians, particularly when combined with the following one"
"I do think that a wider audience should know about the problem, and if that is stirring up unhappiness, then so be it."
Anyone who has spent any time looking at the posts in this forum will realize that in general, this forum exists to be constructive, rather than simply vocal with respect to problems. I doubt there is a single member of this forum who is not aware of the fact that some EOSes have a problem with leaks, so an audience which is already aware that the EOS may leak simply knows that there is another such case now. I think most of us are unhappy that there is another unsatisfied customer, and feel sorry for Klunk.
However personally I would be much more worried if the information had been communicated to the dealer and the dealer had dismissed it out of hand (wasn't it you who stated the other day that your own dealer was amazed at the amount of useful information available in this forum), or even worse had tried to perform the operations described and it had not resolved the problem. That would be really important news, since I think the general concensus is that the procedure outlined above has solved the problem is all but the most egregious cases..


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

The Eos is a specialty car... a practical one, but a specialty car... the novelty & benefits of the hardtopoutweigh this realitivley minimal maintenance requirement, IMHO


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Klunk* »_
I too would have absolutely no problem if the roof seals require attention, maintenance, treatment or lubricating once a year during scheduled servicing. 
I would not even mind if there was an extra charge for this service as I do not expect to recieve any service of any kind free of charge, but we have not yet reached that stage where it is due a service.


Hi Klunk,
I wouldn't expect you would have gone back through every post on the site here, but had you stumbled accross some of my previous posts you would have noticed I am a strong advocate of lubricating the seals at PDI, or prior to delivery to the customer. I should have mentioned that point in my original response to you.
I think if the seals were lubricated prior to delivery, there would be fewer owners experiencing the difficulty you are.
I assume, despite your frustration, that you ultimately would like the problem resolved. Based on this assumption, may I request you provide some additional information on the leak you are experiencing. Where is the location of the leak, and how severe is it, a few drips, a steady stream, more than one location etc.
Also, setting aside the "who should educate who" debate for a moment, out of curiosity, has seal lubrication been discused with, or mentioned by, your service department as a possible solution??
Kevin


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Klunk* »_...many of the readers/posters to this forum are trying to put the blame on to the owners of their brand new Eos(s) for their cars leaking because they have not followed some so called maintenance procedure. This is absolutely ridiculous. For starters, if a car can be driven for a year or longer before it requires mechanical service and inspection, then the same car should be able to be used for a year, ideally longer before any sort of maintenance is required on the roof seals. Roof maintenance should not be required on a car that is only weeks old.


Hello Klunk:
I appreciate the point you are trying to make, and generally speaking, I agree with you. The overall tone of your post is, perhaps, a bit more combative than the norm here on the forum (we tend to be *solution*-focused here, rather than *complaint*-focused), but that doesn't dilute the worth of your argument.
As others have pointed out, you have likely not read all of the discussion that has taken place over the last few months on the topic of preventing (or solving) water leaks and maintenance and lubrication of the roof seals. So, here's an 'executive summary' of how the discussions and the quest for a solution have progressed since October of 2006:
*1)* A number of new Eos purchasers reported that they were having difficulty with various matters relating to the roof, including water leaks, windows not closing correctly, and noise concerns.
*2)* In Europe, VW reacted pretty quickly and promulgated a campaign (61A8) that addressed these problems on early production Eos. Although one of the mandated actions in that campaign was lubrication of the roof seals with the special lubricant, the campaign didn't strongly stress that lubrication before entry to service should be considered as _de rigeur_ if more than 3 or 4 months has elapsed between manufacture of the car and entry to service. 
*3)* In North America, VW published several TBs (Technical Bulletins) that provided details of rather complex fixes (window adjustments, roof adjustments) to solve specific roof problems, but again, they did not stress the obvious, which is that the roof seals need to be lubricated first before any other interventions are considered.
*4)* Here in the forum, all of us tried to figure out what the fix to the leak problem could be. We were pretty certain it would be a simple fix - in other words, that there was no design flaw - but because the car was so new to all of us, we had to scratch our heads and discuss the problem with each other first. A lot of forum members did really first-class research work on the topic.
*5)* A customer called my VW dealer (VW Richmond Hill, near Toronto, Canada) to report that the Eos they had purchased had developed a roof leak after 5 months of otherwise satisfactory service. The techs at my VW dealership follow this forum, and they called me to invite me up to watch the troubleshooting process because they knew we were all working on the problem. This particular Eos was the perfect vehicle for a troubleshooting exercise, because it had been problem-free for the first 5 months... that ruled out any manufacturing problems or adjustment problems as possible causes of the leak.
*6)* Precisely because all the techs at my dealership have been following the discussions here in the forum, they were very cautious and took a very rigorous, academic approach to troubleshooting the problem. The first step was to give the customer a Touareg as a courtesy service loaner and to tell him "don't call us, we'll call you". Considering that Toronto was in the middle of a period of heavy snowfall and seriously cold weather, that ensured that the techs could keep the Eos for at least a week and not have any time pressure. This made a big difference, because it is no fun to be obliged to get a problem fixed by the end of the day when you don't know what the solution is.
*7)* After a great deal of discussion, a decision was made to just do what it says in the owner manual - lubricate the seals. Be aware that this was a pretty radical approach - technicians reading the owner manual. Heck, in North America, not even the owners read the owner manual!
*8)* The techs ordered $300 worth of lubricant (3 bottles), and when it arrived, lubricated the car. It turned out that only a half bottle was needed. It also turned out that lubricating the seals totally solved the water leak. I was able to photograph the entire process and document it on this thread:  How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks. Based on their findings that roof seals dry out after a period of time - or, perhaps, after a certain number of car washes, no-one knows for sure just yet - they decided to proactively lubricate roof seals on every Eos on the day of delivery to the purchaser (not on the day that PDI gets done, which could be months earlier).
*9)* Since then, they have lubricated 5 more Eos - two that were sold recently, and three that other Eos owners (who purchased their Eos elsewhere) have brought in for service after reading the post. It appears that lubricating the roof solves water leaks and unwanted noises, and no further intervention, such as adjustments, is needed. Also, since I made the original post How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks, a number of other forum members have reported that lubrication has solved their problems. So, it appears we have succeeded in finding the solution that we began looking for 4 months ago, and as we expected, it is a pretty simple solution, not invasive at all.
*10)* Were it not for the fact that the special lubricant is quite expensive in North America, that would be the end of the problem. However, because the special lubricant is quite expensive, not all dealers are lubricating seals on the day of delivery. You can't really blame them for not doing this because the PDI instructions don't mandate lubricating seals. It appears to us that if the car is fresh out of the factory, it won't need lubrication, but if it has been sitting around in stock for a few months, it probably will benefit from lubrication. This is, though, just a tentative hypothesis.
*11)* I have written to Mr. Adrian Hallmark, the Executive Vice President of VW of America, and asked that he take a second look at the cost of the special lubricant, and see if it is possible to lower the cost. It is in everyone's best interest to get the cost lowered - it will reduce VW of America warranty claims, it will increase owner satisfaction with the new car (no complaints post-delivery), and owners will appreciate the lower cost of the lubricant when they buy it for routine maintenance.
*12)* It is now up to VW to determine if it would be wise to send out a memo to dealers discussing roof seal lubrication prior to delivery, and further discussing roof seal lubrication at the scheduled service intervals.
*13)* Regardless of what happens in point 12), lubrication of the vehicle - be it lubrication of the roof or lubrication of the chassis - is an owner responsibility, which means that the cost of doing it on an ongoing basis is going to be to the account of the owner. Having said that, though, I do agree that the owner should not need to have to lubricate the roof until he or she has had the car for some length of time, same way that the owner does not need to lubricate the chassis or change the oil until they have had the car for some length of time.
Our overall experience with VW in America is that they are basically an honest company, although they can sometimes be a bit slow off the mark when it comes to getting information out to the dealer network concerning how to best prevent or how to best (most efficiently, most quickly, least expensively) solve problems. I am confident that within the next few months we will see a lower price on the lubricant, and we will also begin to see dealers lubricating the seals on day of delivery if the seal shows any evidence having dried out since the car was built.
I hope that addresses your concerns.
Michael
*PS:* We try to work on a first-name basis here in this forum - it keeps things courteous - would appreciate it if you could tag your first name on to your posts, or at least put your first name in your user profile. Pure anonymity tends to lead to, uh, not the best possible discourse, if you know what I mean.


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## Klunk (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*

Good afternoon to Mark, Turbocrazy, Kevin, John and Michael (and anybody that I have missed) 
My Name is Ben, my wife's name is Elizabeth.
You are correct, in that I am not used to forums.
I have spent the last two hours reading dozens of "posts" and my sons printer is working overtime in printing the relevant posts out.
We have read the owners manual, from front to back and have not found anywhere where it says to lubricate the seals on a regular basis.
There is a vague hint about keeping seals clean etc but no reference to the VW part reference as detailed in Michael's excellent article, which my wife strongly advises that he puts a copyright upon it.
We wish to have the problem resolved asap, but have never put pressure upon the dealer to return the car at the end of a working day, and we may inadvertly be responsible for them keeping the car for so long as we expressly said that we did not want the car back until it was repaired, but also we did not expect them to keep the car for almost two weeks.
As my wife only uses her car at the weekends, and commutes to work on the London underground, then not having the car back for a few days was not an immediate concern.
The first time the car was returned to the garage, then we were informed that the roof seals would be lubricated and that there was a very good chance that this would solve the problem.
I am not sure where the water leak actually is, but when it is raining, the water comes in at the front of the glass sunroof, and drips down in our laps. 
On a 30 minute drive, then my wife's dress and my trousers were quite wet. Wet enough for my wife to decide that she wanted to return home to change her clothes.
If the internal shade is pulled forward to cover the glass sunroof, then this seems to make the water run towards the sides as well as the front.
I would like to thank everyone for their help.
Ben


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*

Hi Ben,
Since fomalities were initially overlooked, firstly then, welcome to the forum Ben and Elizabeth.
Well, since you indicate the service department has performed a seal lubrication, I guess the next quuestion is: Based on the information you have found here on the forum, are you confident they lubricated the seals thoroughly (didn't miss any areas) and is there any indication the seals may have been pinched, and possibly still deformed?
I believe Micheal had some good photo's posted that would give you a good idea of what to look for.
Kevin








FYI, I mention this with extreme caution, because there has, on occasion, been misinformation released with regard to the Eos. So please don't take this as 100% accurate without first following up with your service advisor.
If, and I stress the _if_, it is determined that your difficulty goes beyond a fairly simple and straightforward fix, and if the service technician determines the roof requires alignment or adjustments, I would like you to be aware of the comment made to me by the fellows in the service department at my dealership.
They told me they have received instruction from VW (not certain if this is VWoC, VWoA, or VW corporate) that if a roof problem is diagnosed by a certified service technician to require adjustment, NO adjustments are to be made, the entire roof assembly will be replaced.
Please don't rush into the service department demanding your roof be replaced, but, if they suggest to you your car be sent away for alignment, it may be worthwhile suggesting they follow up on the possibilty that VW is taking a "replacement" approach to alignment problems.
As Michael has pointed out several times, the seal maintenance is the least evasive procedure, and it would be my recommendation you first thoroughly exhaust all possibile options ensuring all seals are properly lubricated, in place, and undamaged, before contemplating any other action.
Kevin












_Modified by just4fun at 4:25 PM 3-11-2007_


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Klunk* »_
We have read the owners manual, from front to back and have not found anywhere where it says to lubricate the seals on a regular basis.
There is a vague hint about keeping seals clean etc but no reference to the VW part reference as detailed in Michael's excellent article, which my wife strongly advises that he puts a copyright upon it.
Ben

Hi Ben,
London Underground? So I take it you have a UK spec car. If you look in the handbook under section 3.2 Tips & Maintenance, on page 34 you will see some pretty detailed information about care of rubber seals. It does say that they recommend that you clean and treat the CSC rubber seals regularly (with that word shown in italics in the handbook). It goes on to to explain how to clean them using lint free cloth and a mix of washing up liquid and water and how to treat the seals sparingly with the special lubricant (liquid) G 052 172 A1.
I think you have bought a car, like I did, where the PDI did not include lubrication of the seals and so you are experiencing the problems you are doing. I think the lubrication should solve the problem. If it doesn't then it is perhaps something to do with alignment, or similar. The service book also states that the seals get lubricated when the car gets interval/20,000 mile service, but not on the 10,000 mile annual oil change. (forgive me these are the service intervals for a diesel, so just check the service handbook to find the petrol equivilent, if different).
I'm pretty sure that the seals will need re-lubricating more frequently than every 20,000 / 2 years and so this is something we will all have to undertake, either personally or by having the garage do it for you. 
The advantage of a forum such as this is that you can share the accumulated knowledge of lots of people and this is obviously developing quite quickly as people buy and use their cars and and then come across issues such as this. We probably have a higher level of awareness of issues like this than the dealers do, unless they have received a specific update from VW. You may or may not know that the release of the car was delayed several months because VW wanted to get the roof sorted and a lot of this was around the seals.
I was encouraged to find that when I spoke to my dealer on an unrelated matter and mentioned seals, he told me they had a specific person at the dealership who undertook re-lubrication and seemed quite switched on to it. Do you know if your garage has an Eos trained technician?
I have had soft top convertibles in the past and have always experienced the odd squeak or drip and naturally expect a solid hard top to be better. When I hear stories about the Peugeot CC's and all their problems, I am glad the worst we seem to be suffering from is a dry seal!
I hope the lubrication works for you. Please come back and tell us how you go on, anything you can glean from the dealer about what they are doing, anything they have been told, or picked up. That way we can add it to the shared knowledge. If the seal lubrication doesn't work, please tell us about that too. the forum works best when we share experiences.
Big welcome to the forum. Hope you will stick around even after the seals business is sorted, who knows what will come up in the coming months, hopefully mostly good


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Klunk* »_
I am not sure where the water leak actually is, but when it is raining, the water comes in at the front of the glass sunroof, and drips down in our laps. 


I have not heard of anyone yet having a leak from the front of the sunroof. It seems most of the reported leak issues were along the windows or down the A pillars. Perhaps this is a new scenario that lubrication may not address.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (flheat)*

Ben
Bruce beat me to it. I was about to make the same comment, most problems that have been reported to date have not involved the same degree of water penetration that you describe and have been noticed at the 'A' or 'B' pillar position, regardless of whether or not the inner cover is extended or retracted.
Here's a picture of the front seal on my EOS. Does yours look noticeably different 








[Yes, for the eagle eyes out there, judging by the traces of white on my seal it's time for Captain Krytox!]
Also on my NAR spec car there is a sticker on the 'B' pillar on the driver's side that gives the build date for your vehicle, in my case 11/06, 
I'm not sure if UK cars have a similar plate, I seem to remember they do but it's been 17 years since I last looked at a UK spec car. It may be under the bonnet as I recall. If so does it have a build date for your car, and could you tell us how long it was between the date was built and the date you picked the car up from the dealer.
Regards
Mark.


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 5:42 PM 3-11-2007_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*

Hi Ben:
I'm glad to hear that some of the information you have found here in the forum has been useful to you - that is, really, the primary goal that all of us have here in the forum, to identify and promulgate solutions to problems.
I certainly didn't expect you to go and research all that has been written on roof seals - that would take forever







- hence the reason I wrote an 'executive summary' for you.
*A caution:* We have forum members from two different world markets (UK and North America) active here on the forum, and both the owner manuals and the internal technical publications that VW distributes to the dealer networks are different on either side of the pond. This will cause you tons of confusion unless you are alert to this fact. For example, in the NAR (North American Region) Eos Owner Manual, roof lubrication procedures are documented on page 25 of section 3.2 of the manual, but in the UK, roof lubrication procedures are documented on page 34 of section 3.2.
In the ROW (Rest of World, which means everything except NAR) region, Volkswagen issues 'campaign' or 'action' letters, for example, campaign 61A8 was released in November 2006 and provides a list of things to be done if a roof is leaking. Also, in the ROW, VW issues technical bulletins that have 7 digit numbers, for example, 2001234.
In NAR, the word 'campaign' has other connotations (it means recall), so VW issues Technical Bulletins (TBs) and they have numbers such as 64-06-10 (three groups of two digits each). Be aware that the ROW dealers never see the NAR TBs, and the NAR dealers never see the ROW documents. So, if you go zipping into your UK Volkswagen dealer and make reference to a NAR TB, they will wonder what planet you are from.








Having said all that - lubrication appears to solve 90% of roof leaks. There are some other mechanical issues that should be looked at if the roof has been properly lubricated and it still leaks, but generally speaking, you want to avoid interventions such as adjustments if at all possible.
Regardless of where the water enters the roof assembly, it will almost always exit into the cabin at one of two places - either the front of the sunroof (front right or front left corner), or the extreme front outboard corner of the roof assembly where the roof assembly mates with the windshield. For this reason, observing where the water _exits _is not much help when trying to figure out where it _enters_.
I have posted a picture below that shows a deformed roof seal. In this particular case, the roof seal was allowed to dry out, and when the glass sunroof panel pulled downwards into place after reaching the forward limit of travel, it "pinched" the roof seal. The entry point of the water on this particular car was, without any doubt, at this deformation, but the exit point of the water was way forward, in the extreme front outboard corner of the roof. Maybe this might help you to troubleshoot your car.
Based on everything we have learned so far, it appears that the troubleshooting sequence for roof leaks goes, more or less, like this:
*1)* Lubricate all seals.
*2)* Make sure there are no deformed seals. If there are, un-deform them.
*3)* Observe the lines silk-screened on the top of the four side windows, and make sure that they are coming to rest exactly where they are supposed to. If not, re-adapt the window pinch protection.
*4)* Repeat step three. If you still have problems, adjust the window regulators to ensure that the windows close such that the silk-screen reference marks are in the right place.
Oddly enough, the roof itself seems to be totally innocent. I have not yet heard from anyone here in the forum who has reported that their VW dealer has found a mechanical or assembly (adjustment) problem with the roof. The problems seem to be 90% lack of lubrication and/or pinched seals (pinched seals result from a lack of lubrication, it is a 'cause and effect' relationship), 5% window pinch protection requires re-adaptation, and 5% window regulators require a tiny adjustment.
Here is the post that explains how to lubricate the roof and how to solve the pinched seal problem: How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks
Here is the post that explains how to re-adapt window pinch protection and (if necessary) how to make minor adjustments to window position: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10). Be aware that the TB is a NAR TB, you might want to pass it on to your dealership staff just for their review. I strongly suspect that the same information will be found in Action 61A8, which is the ROW equivalent of TB 64-06-10.
Below is a picture of a pinched roof seal. This is the single most common cause of roof leaks. The cure: lubrication and massage (honestly).








Best regards,
Michael
*Example of a Pinched Roof Seal*


----------



## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (Klunk)*

Hi Ben
I am in agreement with you in that it is not the owners fault if the roof seals have started to leak within weeks of ownership.
From what your posts say, then it may be beyond a case of just requiring roof seal lubrication.
My eos was registered in September last year, and my owners book has *NO* reference to the vw lubricating liquid, or to regular lubricating requirements.
I received some pictures of the relevant pages about lubrication from Gurney Gub, and have since asked my dealer to supply me with a copy of the updated owners book, which I am still waiting for.
So, maybe your eos is an early manufactured one, and perhaps if you ask, you may also be provided with an updated book.
My eos is almost 6 months old now, left outside all the time, and minor (hopefully) water leaks have started to appear inside the front and rear windows on both sides.
Also. my opinion is that it is not up to me to fix the water problem, so after a chat with the dealers Brand Manager, I arranged with them for them to apply the lubrication.
This was two weeks ago, and the water leaks are not as bad but they are still there. You can see the water stain marks on the interior door trims etc.
All of which does not inspire confidence for the future.
Hope that yours is sorted soon.
Paul.


----------



## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (trampdog)*

Paul, Ben 
Without wanting to make light of a serious situation, and given that in the rest of world it appears that seal lubrication has resolved the issue, do you think we're going to get the classic British Rail style quote from VWUK "The wrong kind of rain fell'....

For those outside the UK, 
A few years ago, the entire southeast rail service, which uses a 3rd rail rather than overhead lines to supply power, ground to a halt one autumn the official explination was "The wrong kind of leaves fell on the line". As I recall there was a second occassion where a fairly light snowfall bought the whole system to a halt and once again the official explication was "The wrong kind of snow fell on the line"...


----------



## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Paul, Ben 
Without wanting to make light of a serious situation, and given that in the rest of world it appears that seal lubrication has resolved the issue, do you think we're going to get the classic British Rail style quote from VWUK "The wrong kind of rain fell'....



My dealer hinted that the water ingress might be because of the way I wash the car, ie pointing the hose pipe the wrong way against the door seals.
In fairness to him, then ocasionaly he might be right, but as anyone living in the north east of England would know, the water pressure that comes out of the garden hosepipe is pathetically low, in fact it wouldn't blow the top of a "Mr Whippy ice cream"
I gently rinse the car, then use warm soapy car foam stuff to wash it and then rise the suds off, using a hosepipe with an adjustable spray nozzle, which also svaes me money as we have a p**y water meter.
But in Unfairness to the dealer, then I have no control over which way the wind blows rain on to and at my eos when it is parked or on the move ! Therefore vw should make sure that the car is waterproof.
Paul...


_Modified by trampdog at 1:25 PM 3-12-2007_


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (trampdog)*

BTW is this available in the UK
http://www.epinions.com/Mr_Cle...views
I bought one at the weekend, fully expecting to take it back. However it appears to work brilliantly, the PUR filter (similar to a Brita) really seems to work as described. Simply do a final rinse with the ionised purifed water spray and let dry.. Not one one water strain on the outside, and nothering through the roof either... 
Edit : Apparenty it is avaible in the UK under the 'FLASH' product brand.



_Modified by mark_d_drake at 7:07 AM 4-5-2007_


----------



## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (mark_d_drake)*

Hi Mark, 
short answer is I do not know, I have never thought to look for one, but at the price in the link that you posted, then it seems quite cheap.
I don't really mind using a leather on my car (get a bit grumpy when I have to do my wife's Ford ka - Only joking Pet) as I get a good chance to admire it's good looks.








Also, I have two leathers, but that's a different story.
Might look on google later in the year, to see whats available in the UK, when the Sun decides to make an appearance, as I have to be quick with the leather in Sunny weather (that will be about twice a year then)
Paul.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (trampdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trampdog* »_My dealer hinted that the water ingress might be because of the way I wash the car, ie pointing the hose pipe the wrong way against the door seals...

Hi Paul:
I don't think it should matter much how you point the hose at the vehicle, as long as you are not using a nozzle on the end of the hose to increase the force of the water when you are washing anywhere above the beltline of the car. I suppose that if you pointed the hose upwards (a near vertical water spray) in close proximity to where the windows meet the roof seals, you might get a leak, but it is unlikely you would do that when washing the car, and it is very unlikely that rain would ever fall in that manner, even in the worst gale.
The car is engineered to withstand water impact up to 130 MPH and not leak as long as the water is hitting the front of the car straight on, as it would if you were driving at 130 MPH in a hard rain. However, the car is not engineered to withstand forceful water impact coming at the side of the car, or from the rear of the car, etc.
Below is a picture that shows water leakage tests being conducted at my VW dealership in Canada. As you can see, the one-inch diameter industrial hose is delivering a pretty good volume of water, but no nozzle is being used to concentrate the water force. The car is being flooded, not pummeled. After finishing the lubrication and massaging a deformed seal back into the original shape, it didn't leak, not one drop. BTW, this is the same car that was used in the photo story here: How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks.
Michael
*Flood the car with water, hit all the seals directly, but don't use a nozzle on the end of the hose.*
_Let's be realistic: You want to imitate a heavy rainstorm, not Hurricane Katrina._


----------



## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
However, the car is not engineered to withstand forceful water impact coming at the side of the car, or from the rear of the car, etc.

Michael
*Flood the car with water, hit all the seals directly, but don't use a nozzle on the end of the hose.*
_Let's be realistic: You want to imitate a heavy rainstorm, not Hurricane Katrina._


Hi Michael, 
thanks for the picture, I have infact read your well described post before and I have passed the link on to my dealer and he assures me his tecs would be looking at the posts.
As I said to Mark, I have left it to the dealer to apply the lubrication, as I am standing by my belief that it not an owners duty to do this, in the same way that Klunk has stated.
In the uk, our domestic hose pipes are approx a half inch diameter and in the area that I live, then the water pressure is low and the volume of water that is shown in your picture is just a "dream" for me at least.








I use a spray nozzle with a trigger, which saves water when the trigger is not pressed, but the nozzle does not add any pressure as such, it only serves to alter the spray pattern, ie in about 8 different ways.
But thanks for the info.
Paul.


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

I couldn't help it, I had to "test" the seals against a power washer. 
Scenario: 
1) Check all the seals were still well lubricated (not dripping oil, but just soft and pliable to the touch). 
2) Open and close the top, and then do a quick look over to ensure that seals were fitting properly (no visible pinches in the rubber)
3) Bring out the old 1440 psi pressure washer from the garage (you all know the one, we use it to clean the concrete of the winter stains) but fit it with the "non-paint removing" attachment.








<side note> Some people use pressure washers on their cars like they want to remove paint instead of dirt. If you bring 1440 psi an inch from the paint, it is bad. an inch from any seal would be evil.
4) "rinse" down the car
5) soap it all nice and happy (if i'm playing with water, car is going to get a proper bath in the process)
6) Then, with the wand set to fan mode... i started at the car doors and windows. no leaks. I'm holding the wand a minimum of 4 feet from the car (usually further) at this point. my wife was inside, her eyes set to "water sensitive" mode-- she was ready to yell at me for ruining the car.
7) no water, moved wand closer, between 3 and 4 feet, attacking seals from back at roof and trunk. sides above door pointing down (thank goodness for ladders) and pointing up towards the seal along the window.
8) I would never never never bring a pressure washer closer than 2 feet. ever. so never tried to see what would happen.
overall, the car handled the wash fine. Not one leak, anywhere along the vehicle. My follow up with the wash was as follows:
1) Towel dry all visible surfaces.
2) Open the doors. There was a little water along the bottom edge of the door, however, none got past the rubbers. There was not enough to cause any form of mass-water exodus from the door frame when it was opened. (dry feet for me)
3) open the sunroof. Again, there was a tiny teeny little bit of water within the seal, however, it was so minor that i'm sure it was just a little excess from the normal "funneling" of the water.
4) opened roof. I expected that there would be water dropping all over the place at this point. I just washed it, after all. None. At the point where the arms (what is the technical term for them?) touch the windscreen, I saw a few drops of water come off the driver side (from the arm), but attributed that to "i just washed the car and was stupid enough to open the roof right afterwards".
I, personally, think that VW did a great job at making the car handle water. I would never have taken a pressure washer to my old Alfa Romeo Spider Convertible (1975) because it would have ruined the top, the seals, and the interior.
While I am not a scientist running precision tests and there were no "laser distance measures" checking how close I was with the pressure washer, I am confident that this car is well made and that the seals do the job they are intended to do.
I don't doubt that some cars may have issues, there are always "oops" vehicles that come off an assembly line; that kind of thing can't be helped.
I strongly believe that if we are proactive with our vehicle maintenance, that it will be a great great addition to our home garage.
PS: The only "wet" result from this test was "after" the test concluded. The wife and I ended up in a water fight-- and she, I should point out, won.


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (EOSmage)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EOSmage* »_PS: The only "wet" result from this test was "after" the test concluded. The wife and I ended up in a water fight-- and she, I should point out, won.










Of course she did.... Any other outcome would have been "undesirable".


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (just4fun)*

Sounds like an assembly problem. I haven't done a lick of maintenance on the roof and it hasn't leaked due to the seal problems. I leave my car outside in the rain year round. However, I did have that nastsy window roll down bug which allowed water to enter the vehicle but I would hardly consider a 4 inch wide gap to be a leaky seal.


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## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: (EOSmage)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EOSmage* »_7) no water, moved wand closer, between 3 and 4 feet, attacking seals from back at roof and trunk. sides above door pointing down (thank goodness for ladders) and *pointing up towards the seal along the window*.

That's really quite impressive. Most convertibles will let at least a few drops in if you spray upwards at the area where the windows meet the roof.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (flubber)*

I'm pretty amazed too. I would have thought that the 'soft and pliable' seal would have yielded to the force of the water striking it from below, and thus let some in.
Remarkable.
Michael


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## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: (EOSmage)*

Hi
thanks for taking the time to experiment.
The outcome to me proves that there is some difference in either the tolerance's of the car and roof assembly or that the material that has been used for the seals is "variable" in its quality. ie some eos cars withstand water penetration better than others.
Before you all reply back about seal maintenace etc, then we are dealing with vehicles that are not even a year old.
Please let me explain my point of view. In my own way I have conducted my own survey among other Cabriolets and CC's owners.
Approx 10 years ago, I used to have an old Audi cabriolet, colmplete with canvass roof, and I do not recall it leaking.
Yipes, 30 years ago, i had an ageing Triumph Spitfire that did not leak, it would refuse to Start, and once even refused to Steer round a bend, but it did not leak.
Ok back to the present time.
My daughter owns a 4 year old Peugeot 206 CC. Until she was married last year, then it was up to good old dad to wash it, cos if i didn't then she wouldn't, as being a young lady, then there was always other interesting things for her to do (lazy so and so).
In just over three years, then I have probably washed her car every two weeks (with the same hose pipe and shut off nozzle) that i wash my eos with.
Guess what, not a leak to be seen. 
Other problems Yes, like left hand rear window refusing (i like that word) to close sometimes, and numerous visits to the dealers never fixed it, but not a leak.
This car also has a folding metal roof.
My son in law, her husband, owns an Audi A4 Cabriolet. Yes, I know that it is a canvass roof, and not a metal folding roof, but he assures me that it does not leak, either from rain or from washing it by hand/hosepipe.
My best buddy, owns a Renault Megane CC (not my choice, but we are all individuals, so each to his own) and guess what ?
Yes, correct again it does not leak.
He is so impressed with his, that at only 18 months old, he is trading it in and buying another, but the next model up with more kit etc.
Where I work, there are approx 450 employees, about 300 cars in the car park, out of which there are 7 or 8 cabriolets and CC's ranging from some sort of Merc SLK (i think) to Audi TT roadsters, to Vauxhall Astra Cabriolets and CC's.
I have talked to these owners, hard not to as they were like flies round s**t when i parked my new eos (6 months ago) with pride in our company's private car park.
Yes most owners have had a snag or too, but nothing relating to the roof or roof mechanism and they look on in horror when I asked about water leaks.
None of these owners are rushing to the vw garage to upgrade to an eos (don't get upset, but i think that it is safe to say, to move from a merc slk to an eos is not upgrading)
All I can say now, is that with my current experience of my eos, then I would not buy another one.
I dearly wish that my eos was one of those that was water tight.
Sorry for being long winded, but if you had the above background would you not also be surprised, annoyed, upset that your eos was leaking.
Paul..


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (trampdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trampdog* »_...The outcome to me proves that there is some difference in either the tolerance's of the car and roof assembly or that the material that has been used for the seals is "variable" in its quality...

Hi Paul:
You have identified two possible variables above. I think we (the group) have identified three variables. These are:
*1)* Ability of the seals to conform to each other, to the sunroof, and to the top edge of the side windows (influenced by seal lubrication).
*2)* Pressure exerted on the seal by the upper edge of the side window glass (influenced by setting window pinch protection, in other words, adaptation of the window regulators).
*3)* Physical alignment of the side windows in the x - y - z axis (influenced by physical adjustment of the window regulator within the door structure).
I get the impression that if water problems are approached in that sequence (lubrication, adaptation, adjustment), the problems will be overcome. In a best-case scenario, only the first or second action should be needed. I think that difficulties in the past have been caused by taking action in the wrong sequence, for example, making physical adjustments before first lubricating the seals and re-adapting the window pinch protection system.
Michael


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

I really want to stress that before I did any "high-pressure washing" that I confirmed the status of each seal in the car. Since I had just recently lubed them, they were all nice and soft. 
I also must admit that I was shocked that no water got into the cabin during my tests. I am confident that this is largely due to the moist and pliable state of the seals. I would bet that my experience would have been radically different without having kept the seals soft.
Unfortunately, I don't yet know any other EOS owners in my area. I have nothing to compare the seals in my car with (and the dealers can't seem to hold onto the cars for me to look at show-room vehicles).
In my mind, it would be excellent to be able to compare 5 or 6 EOS cars side-by-side and check the seals. Even better, I'd like to compare my car's seals with one that has leaking troubles. Looking for differences in the feel, materials, or just shape of the seals would be an interesting thing.
Anyone in my area?


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## JustinW (Aug 8, 2003)

*ROAD TRIP!!*


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## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Hi Paul:
You have identified two possible variables above. I think we (the group) have identified three variables. These are:
*1)* Ability of the seals to conform to each other, to the sunroof, and to the top edge of the side windows (influenced by seal lubrication).
*2)* Pressure exerted on the seal by the upper edge of the side window glass (influenced by setting window pinch protection, in other words, adaptation of the window regulators).
*3)* Physical alignment of the side windows in the x - y - z axis (influenced by physical adjustment of the window regulator within the door structure).
I get the impression that if water problems are approached in that sequence (lubrication, adaptation, adjustment), the problems will be overcome. In a best-case scenario, only the first or second action should be needed. I think that difficulties in the past have been caused by taking action in the wrong sequence, for example, making physical adjustments before first lubricating the seals and re-adapting the window pinch protection system.
Michael


Hi
Well I guess its time for step 2 as the dealer has already performed step 1.
I shall make arrangements to have them perform the adaptation of the window regulators in the near future.
Paul..


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (trampdog)*

Hi Paul:
We have all the information about how to adapt the side window pinch protection here on the forum (somewhere) - let me know if you have any trouble finding it. It's easy to do, no disassembly required, but the Eos procedure is unique to the Eos, so the tech has to read and follow the instructions carefully. Also, because you are in the UK, if your VIN ends in a number below 12187, perhaps ask your dealer if they have checked to see if Campaign 61A8 contains any criteria that are applicable to your car. (Note to NAR forum members: this document does not apply to North American vehicles).
Michael


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## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Paul:
We have all the information about how to adapt the side window pinch protection here on the forum (somewhere) - let me know if you have any trouble finding it. It's easy to do, no disassembly required, but the Eos procedure is unique to the Eos, so the tech has to read and follow the instructions carefully. Also, because you are in the UK, if your VIN ends in a number below 12187, perhaps ask your dealer if they have checked to see if Campaign 61A8 contains any criteria that are applicable to your car. (Note to NAR forum members: this document does not apply to North American vehicles).
Michael

Hi Michael, thanks for the advice.
I have printed off the info from the post on the forum.
My VIN is lower than *1600*, which would seem to indicate that it is an early eos.
Paul..


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (trampdog)*

Hi Paul:
For sure, inquire about that ROW (European) tech bulletin... or just have a look in the boot, where the spare tire is, to see if there is a small rectangular sticker in there with the TB number written on it. That would indicate that the TB has been carried out on your car.
Michael


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## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Paul:
For sure, inquire about that ROW (European) tech bulletin... or just have a look in the boot, where the spare tire is, to see if there is a small rectangular sticker in there with the TB number written on it. That would indicate that the TB has been carried out on your car.
Michael

Hi Michael, all the stickers in my boot or whats left of them have peeled away or faded so that they can not be read.








This was caused by being immersed in water, from the original leak that I had into the boot from the damaged seal behind the laft hand side raer light cluster !


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (trampdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trampdog* »_Hi Michael, all the stickers in my boot or whats left of them have peeled away or faded so that they can not be read.








This was caused by being immersed in water, from the original leak that I had into the boot from the damaged seal behind the laft hand side raer light cluster !

Oh Geez...







...that is the funniest thing I have ever heard, in sort of a 'tragic comedy' way. Uh... perhaps ask your service advisor to look back through the service records, see what campaigns were carried out, and refresh the stickers. They are important records for the future.
Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Oh Geez...







...that is the funniest thing I have ever heard...Michael

To the tune of "There's a hole in my EOS, dear advisor, dear advisor, there's a hole in my EOS, dear advisor a hole...."

Ok, it's too obvious
"Well fix it, dear owner, dear owner, dear owner, will fix it dear owner, dear owner fix it.
With what shall I fix it dear advisor, dear adivsor, with what shall I fix it, dear advisor with what ?.
With Krytox dear owner, dear owner dear onwer, with krytox dear owner, dear owner with krytox..."
You can see where this is going...
Where Shall I get it
From the Dealer
But how do I get there
In your EOS
But there's a hole in My EOS
Sorry I couldn't help myself...
_Modified by mark_d_drake at 1:51 PM 3-16-2007_

_Modified by mark_d_drake at 1:55 PM 3-16-2007_


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 1:58 PM 3-16-2007_


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_
To the tune of "There's a hole in my EOS, dear advisor, dear advisor, there's a hole in my EOS, dear advisor a hole...."
]

Thanks for the chuckle Mark














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
kevin


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

Don't think Paul would find it hilarious.
$50k?
John


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (GurnyGub)*

Come on John, I did apologise in advance...


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

I know Mark, and I have a wicked black sense of humour, look where I live. That's why I found it hard not to mention the thrashing England got at the rugby, but Paul, Ben, and GrubbyGirl (all UK) have had not only bad experiences with their cars, but also from their dealers. Maybe because I'm only a short hop away from them I feel their hurt more. A new car should be a delight for all of us, a thrill even, that's what I feel, but I'm a sympathetic soul, and feel 'there but for the grace' etc
John


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (GurnyGub)*

John
I do feel for Paul, Ben and Angela, and if I offend them or made the situation worse for them in any I sincerely apologize. Please but it down to trying to light up a really bad week in the office, and a lack of self control as a result of it..
-Mark


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## kghia (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: (GurnyGub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GurnyGub* »_I know Mark, and I have a wicked black sense of humour, look where I live. That's why I found it hard not to mention the thrashing England got at the rugby, but Paul, Ben, and GrubbyGirl (all UK) have had not only bad experiences with their cars, but also from their dealers. Maybe because I'm only a short hop away from them I feel their hurt more. A new car should be a delight for all of us, a thrill even, that's what I feel, but I'm a sympathetic soul, and feel 'there but for the grace' etc
John

I feel especially hurt that GrubbyGirl's car was too leaky, because I was jealous of her car with option packages and no leather.
My car has been fairly ok, with a small amount of leaking that (mostly) went away with lubrication. A tiny bit more and it will be gone I'll bet.
I really wish she had been able to be happy with that Eos, or can find a newer Eos to make her happy








A check to another make's dealership-- that could make a commercial !








William


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## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*

To Mark, William, Kevin and John
Don't worry chaps, no offence taken, I too had a chuckle, after all I must have a very good sense of Humour to be driving this heap of tin






















Paul..


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (trampdog)*

Paul
On a more serious note.. 
I recall you mentioned it was a faulty seal on one of the rear light units that allowed the water to enter the boot, and as I recall Angela (GrubbyGirl) had the same problem with her car and the loaner she was given. This weekend Alan (ALPAPPY) rejected his EOS for the same reason. All are UK RHD cars
Do you know exactly which light is was. AFAIK this problem (significant water in the trunk) has only arisen on UK Spec cars. I was trying to think how there could be a correlation between UK spec cars and leakage. The only thing that comes to mind based on your expericence is a fault in the manafacturing of the UK Spec Reverse and Fog Light assemblies, which would be different to ROW spec as the lights are reversed. 
Was it the Fog or Reverse Light that had the issue or was it one of the other units.
-M


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*

Interesting thought, Mark.
The outboard light assemblies should be the same, _I think,_ for RHD or LHD - the difference will be the inboard assemblies, so as to position the rear fog light on the farside of the vehicle.
You might be on to something, though, with your observation about an unusual correlation between water leakage into the trunk and RHD vehicles.
Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael
The Tail light part number listing you posted








bears this out. The outer rear light assemblies are the same the world over (with the exception of Mexico ?). It's only the inner ones that vary for LHD and RHD cars. If it turns out that Paul's faulty seal was on the inner assembly then we might be on to something.


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## trampdog (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael and Mark
I still have the original light cluster fitted to my car.
The Light cluster itself was/is not faulty.
I originally posted on this forum under the "rear light failure"post or something along those lines.
I think this is it :-
Water Leakage into rear tail-lamp assembly created by Domdog31
Anyhow, the problem that I originally had was water passing through the sealing tape that covers the spot welded joint of the body panels that is hidden behind the Left hand side rear light cluster (thats the left hand side when looking at the car from the rear)
With the rear light cluster and all the boot interior trim removed, then the service manager showed me (I insisted on seeing it) where the water leaked in.
Using a smallbore hosepipe, with a trickle of water flowing then they found that there was a pin-***** size hole in the tape that allowed water to pass through.
Then the water just followed its way down into the boot well.
One of my concerns was that the hydraulics and electrics for the roof mechanism were partly submerged in water, and the roof control module is located on the left hand side, behind the trim








It took the dealers mechanics a couple of days to find the problem, then my car went to the "body shop" to have the tape replaced, then it arrived back at the dealers where I witnessed the same water test before they replaced all the interior trim and the rear light cluster.
Not sure why, but it took them another three days to refit the trim and return my car. Overall, they had my car for eight days, and this was November last year.
I signed the vw work sheet to have the car repaired under the vw warranty at the start of all this, so presumably vw uk are aware of what has happened.
When I first bought the car, the salesman showed me where the jack and spare tyre was located and also showed me the waterproof coverthat does not seem to be issued with later models but the boot well was DRY.
So my water ingress happened after I took delivery.
Therefore it must have managed the journey fron the factory to the uk without going through alot of bad rainy weather.

Paul..


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (trampdog)*

Paul
Thanks for clarification...
-Mark


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## Klunk (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace Update*

Hello everyone
Here is an update on our situation.
It is about 3 weeks since I posted on the forum.
During that time several things have happened. 
On Tuesday the 13th of March We took the Eos back to the dealers along with lots of information gathered from this forum. So to all the contributors, then We thank you.
We asked the Service Manager to read the information and requested that our Eos was repaired to a satisfactory condition.
We told him that We were going away on holiday and would collect the car on Thursday the 29th of March.
We have been away on holiday touring around Scotland in a hire car.
This was a BMW Convertible with a "soft top".
We have come across all types of weather from near horizontal rain to snow to glorious sunshine.
Interestingly the BMW did not leak once.
We returned to the dealers on the 29th in order to collect our Eos.
We asked what work had been performed on the car.
We were informed that the car had been looked at by a roof specialist from Milton Keynes and that all was ok.
The service manager took us to our car. 
Presumably he expected us to drive away.
But, in front of him, I opened a 1L bottle of mineral (drinking) water and poured the water over the top of the Glass sunroof.
All three of us could see water dripping down inside the car at the front in the middle of the windscreen.
To say that all three of us were bewildered is an understatement.
We verbally rejected the Eos on the spot.
We went into the Managers office and wrote a letter of rejection.
About one hour later, We left the dealers with a cheque for full refund.
We are know contemplating buying a BMW CC when they are available.
Ben and Elizabeth.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace Update (Klunk)*

Ben,
Unfortunate that the Eos didn't work out for you, Enjoy the BMW, or whatever car you eventually go with.
Cheers
Kevin


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Owner Maintenace Update (just4fun)*

Ben
Really sorry to hear you wern't able to get this resolved. I hope you find an alternative that you are happy with...
-Mark


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace Update (Klunk)*

Ben and Elizabeth,
Sorry to hear they didn't fix your Eos, but happy to know you got your money back! I did too, because of the U.S. DSG rollback issue...the VW rep said mine was 3 times worse than others he had driven, but I wasn't ready to try another one right now. 
I was really sorry to have to lose my EOS, but I've ordered a BMW sedan and hope to console myself with that for about 30 months (leased it). I will look at the 2010 EOS and hope I'll be able to get back in at that time.
Best of luckon your new choice! The hardtop BMW convertible arrived last weekend in my town...unfortunately I can't afford it this year! 
Martha


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## Klunk (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Owner Maintenace Update (mconfer)*

Hi Martha, Mark and Kevin
thanks for your kind thoughts.
Ben.


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