# Regular Unleaded vs Premeum



## cpogordon (Jul 12, 2019)

*Regular Unleaded vs Premium*

What have you been told by your Dealership regarding running Unleaded vs Premium gas in the Arteon? I was told that at Sea Level it was OK to run 87 octane in the Arteon, what do you think?


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## chrisjackd (Jul 1, 2013)

Does it say Premium Unleaded inside your gas door? 

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk


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## buffym (Jul 11, 2019)

I am very interested in figuring this out as well.

On one hand, the manual says: "The correct fuel grade for your engine is shown on a sticker on the inside of the fuel filler flap Fig. 160 . Using gasoline that does not meet minimum octane requirements can cause loss of engine performance, while the use of poor quality gasoline or octane levels below 87 can also cause engine damage. If Regular gasoline is recommended for your engine, you may be able to enhance engine performance by using Premium gasoline."

The Arteon's fuel filler flap says "PREMIUM unleaded fuel only" and "min. 91 AKI (R+M)/2"

On the other hand, the Arteon's engine uses a compression ratio of 9.3:1, and from what I read online (e.g. http://www.dnr.louisiana.gov/assets/TAD/education/ECEP/trans/b/b.htm): "Generally, engines with compression ratios of 9.3 : 1 or less will safely operate with unleaded 87 octane fuel. Engines with higher compression ratios usually require higher octane fuels."

Would it be safe to use 87 octane?


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## chrisjackd (Jul 1, 2013)

Years and countless hours went into developing your engine. Audi determined that 91 is the best AKI fuel in North America for performance and fuel efficiency. 

A turbo charger is forcing your engine to produce more power than it could on it's own. Tons of pressure inside of that combustion chamber. The least you could do for the best experience is run premium fuel. 

Legally in North America your car has to be able to run on 87. 91+ for best performance.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk


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## cpogordon (Jul 12, 2019)

buffym said:


> I am very interested in figuring this out as well.
> 
> On one hand, the manual says: "The correct fuel grade for your engine is shown on a sticker on the inside of the fuel filler flap Fig. 160 . Using gasoline that does not meet minimum octane requirements can cause loss of engine performance, while the use of poor quality gasoline or octane levels below 87 can also cause engine damage. If Regular gasoline is recommended for your engine, you may be able to enhance engine performance by using Premium gasoline."
> 
> ...


Yes, it does say Premium unleaded fuel but I believe my 2009 Tiguan also said premium but the dealership told me then, and now, that at Sea Level, Florida, using 87 octane was fine. I also saw a report on Consumer Reports where they ran 87 octane in cars requiring premium and saw no difference in performance or mpg. I think the compression ratio is the key. I don't want to throw away .30 to .60 cents a gallon if it's not needed, but I also don't want to mess the engine up saving .30 to .60 cents per gallon. I was told it was OK but I'm just looking for more input before I make any decisions on what I do over a longer period of time.


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## chrisjackd (Jul 1, 2013)

cpogordon said:


> Yes, it does say Premium unleaded fuel but I believe my 2009 Tiguan also said premium but the dealership told me then, and now, that at Sea Level, Florida, using 87 octane was fine. I also saw a report on Consumer Reports where they ran 87 octane in cars requiring premium and saw no difference in performance or mpg. I think the compression ratio is the key. I don't want to throw away .30 to .60 cents a gallon if it's not needed, but I also don't want to mess the engine up saving .30 to .60 cents per gallon. I was told it was OK but I'm just looking for more input before I make any decisions on what I do over a longer period of time.


87 would be okay at higher elevations, not lower. A dealer will tell you anything to make the car seem more appealing to the buyer. Do not doubt the manufacturers findings.

You should walk to the back of the dealer and ask the technician that works on the car what they recommend...

Also ask yourself if you want the best performance, efficiency, and longevity. If you answer yes to any of those then you should choose premium at the pump. 

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk


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## randyvr6 (Aug 17, 1999)

All I know is that I bought a $40K car knowing it required premium. Not going to try and save a few $ a week by using regular gas


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## vw_service_advisor (Aug 10, 2017)

buffym said:


> I am very interested in figuring this out as well.
> 
> On one hand, the manual says: "The correct fuel grade for your engine is shown on a sticker on the inside of the fuel filler flap Fig. 160 . Using gasoline that does not meet minimum octane requirements can cause loss of engine performance, while the use of poor quality gasoline or octane levels below 87 can also cause engine damage. If Regular gasoline is recommended for your engine, you may be able to enhance engine performance by using Premium gasoline."
> 
> ...


Any pre-ignition caused by the 87 octane should be compensated for via the knock sensor’s input to the engine management system.

That means even if it’s safe to put 87 in an Arteon it will be because the vehicle’s computer reduces performance accordingly. So if saving 10$ at the pump is worth making a 40K purchase feel 15K cheaper have at it.

If cost is the primary factor in fueling an Arteon I’d guess more long-term damage would occur due to either an inadequate amount of additives in the fuel (see the section on Top Tier Fuels in your manual) or bad/old gas from some random station’s tanks, which we see more than you’d think.

Those repairs generally run 800-2K depending on which issue and the extent of the damage. So there’s other potential costs to consider down the road.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

randyvr6 said:


> All I know is that I bought a $40K car knowing it required premium. Not going to try and save a few $ a week by using regular gas


No VW sold "requires" premium. If you would check, premium is only "recommended"? Higher grade, higher power/torque.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

vw_service_advisor said:


> Any pre-ignition caused by the 87 octane should be compensated for via the knock sensor’s input to the engine management system.
> 
> That means even if it’s safe to put 87 in an Arteon it will be because the vehicle’s computer reduces performance accordingly. So if saving 10$ at the pump is worth making a 40K purchase feel 15K cheaper have at it.
> 
> ...


Also it's more like $9 difference between 87 and 91 over an 15 gallon fill up, it's a 60 cent spread now. 

That being said I had no moral issues when I filled up the loaner Gen1 Tiquan with 87 when I had it over the weekend.


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## SDArteon (Jun 16, 2019)

cpogordon said:


> What have you been told by your Dealership regarding running Unleaded vs Premium gas in the Arteon? I was told that at Sea Level it was OK to run 87 octane in the Arteon, what do you think?


Well, since you asked 

I dont think it has anything to so with ambient air pressure.

Crappy gas in the US has been blamed on carbon intake build up in direct injection engines. My 2008 S5 is an ideal example of performance being robbed. The fuel is not the cause, but Audi is the first to blame it on the customer. I used 91 octane and still got it, but both VW and Audi will try to blame engine problems on fuel, oil changes, maintenance etc first when dealing with a repair/warranty issue..

If you put the lowest acceptable grade, 87, in your engine and the fuel supplier falls short of that minimum octane rating then you are risking engine damage, all in the name of a few cents per gallon, when you have spend thousands on a high performace car.

What next? put in 99c/qtr oil from costco, run S-rated cheapo tires from China? Let the kids down the block wash your car for $5 with a dirty towel? 

I dont mean to be rude, but why buy a high perfomance luxury sedan if you can't afford to operate and maintain it....


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## cpogordon (Jul 12, 2019)

Just looking for input, which I got and yes I would call it rude or most likely something else but I won't. Looks like I'll be using Premium, but didn't realize I was going to get a few people riled up and casting stones just for asking the question.


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## SDArteon (Jun 16, 2019)

cpogordon said:


> Just looking for input, which I got and yes I would call it rude or most likely something else but I won't. Looks like I'll be using Premium, but didn't realize I was going to get a few people riled up and casting stones just for asking the question.


My apologies for being rude.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

SDArteon said:


> Well, since you asked
> 
> 
> I dont mean to be rude, but why buy a high perfomance luxury sedan if you can't afford to operate and maintain it....


I'd put a giant asterisk on that, (for VWoA) while it's almost a halo car for VWoA I'd be tough to claim the Arteon is a high performance and luxury sedan, compared to a 1.4t Jetta S sure its much nicer, compared to other 40-45K cars yeah its pretty nice, but there's still tons of room for improvement, sadly the american market won't shell out the coin for it. 

If they didn't chop 10-15K off of options form the Euro spec Arteon then you'd get much closer to a luxury car with improved performance. 

Remember the Honda Accord Sport 2.0t has about the same HP/Tq (that could be had with a manual transmission) and weighs much less yet I don't think anyone would call it a high performance car.


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## zackiedawg (Jul 21, 2000)

A nice compromise is to find a gas station local to you that offers mid-grade premium gas. Virtually all stations have 87 (regular), 89 (mid), and 93/94 (premium) octanes. A few stations add a 4th grade - at 91 octane...it's the low end of premium and matches the fuel recommendation for the Arteon. I always use premium, but I have a station that is on my commute home from work that has the 91 option, and I'll use them when possible.


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## ParkMan73 (May 21, 2019)

randyvr6 said:


> All I know is that I bought a $40K car knowing it required premium. Not going to try and save a few $ a week by using regular gas


This is my view too. It's not that I want to throw money away - but I'd rather treat my engine with a little TLC in hopes of some longer life and better performance.


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## CentralNJ (Apr 26, 2019)

cpogordon said:


> Just looking for input, which I got and yes I would call it rude or most likely something else but I won't. Looks like I'll be using Premium, but didn't realize I was going to get a few people riled up and casting stones just for asking the question.


I had the same question. I ran my CC with the 2.0 turbo on 87 octane for 10 years and never had a problem even though 91+ was recommended. Yes, I spent to buy a high end VW so perhaps I should suck it up and pay several dollars more for each tank of gas, but I don't really want to do it.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

omg the VWoA internet police is going to read that and remove your arteon from your possession!


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm a simple man; I go by manufacturer recommendation.
VW recommends 91 for the Wagon and Arteon, so that's what I use. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Same logic goes for the Engine oil spec etc.

I kept the fuel costs in mind before buying, so I've budgeted for it.

Still a valid question from OP, and I'm glad to see different views from fellow owners. :thumbup:


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

beaumisbro said:


> ....VW recommends 91 for the Wagon....


And which rating system is that? RON, MON, or AKI?

Difference between RON, MON, and AKI
Because of the 8 to 12 octane number difference between RON and MON noted above, the AKI shown in Canada and the United States is 4 to 6 octane numbers lower than elsewhere in the world for the same fuel. This difference between RON and MON is known as the fuel's Sensitivity,[5] and is not typically published for those countries that use the Anti-Knock Index labelling system.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

I had a few Audis with carbon build up problems and Know a bit about the subject regarding octane and carbon build up. While most gas brands and gas grades have similar sulfur level, some gas supplier have more cleaning additive than others. Even among the same brand, sometime the higher octane gas will have more detergent additive than the lower grades. 
So what happens when we put lower octane gas into a car that is programmed for higher octane? Like many here already know, the knock sensor will detect pre-ignition before you can hear or feel it and retard the timing to compensate. After a while, the computer will try to advance the timing again because it is program to run at a more advance timing, when it do so, it will detect knock again because you are still using 87 gas, the timing is retarded once again. This cycle starts over and over and creates a cycle of knocking that the driver does not detect because it is so mild. Knocking comes from pre-ignition or a incomplete combustion cycle. These incomplete combustion cycles generate carbon build up. Since the pre-ignition happens with the intake valve in the wrong position, it will cause more carbon build up inside the valve. In the long run, the build up will rob the engine of power and efficiency. One of the advantage of this particular VW is the dual injection setup, port injection and direct injection. The post injection is suppose to clean up the carbon in the intake valves, I guess the question is will the knocking cause more carbon build than the port injector can clean, that's the million dollar question.
One of my old Audi mechanic used to tell me, use only Shell V-power 93 octane on Audi engines to help it run as clean as possible. Since this VW engine is very similar, I am using strictly Shell V-power.


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

The G Man said:


> I had a few Audis with carbon build up problems and Know a bit about the subject regarding octane and carbon build up. While most gas brands and gas grades have similar sulfur level, some gas supplier have more cleaning additive than others. Even among the same brand, sometime the higher octane gas will have more detergent additive than the lower grades.
> So what happens when we put lower octane gas into a car that is programmed for higher octane? Like many here already know, the knock sensor will detect pre-ignition before you can hear or feel it and retard the timing to compensate. After a while, the computer will try to advance the timing again because it is program to run at a more advance timing, when it do so, it will detect knock again because you are still using 87 gas, the timing is retarded once again. This cycle starts over and over and creates a cycle of knocking that the driver does not detect because it is so mild. Knocking comes from pre-ignition or a incomplete combustion cycle. These incomplete combustion cycles generate carbon build up. Since the pre-ignition happens with the intake valve in the wrong position, it will cause more carbon build up inside the valve. In the long run, the build up will rob the engine of power and efficiency. One of the advantage of this particular VW is the dual injection setup, port injection and direct injection. The post injection is suppose to clean up the carbon in the intake valves, I guess the question is will the knocking cause more carbon build than the port injector can clean, that's the million dollar question.
> One of my old Audi mechanic used to tell me, use only Shell V-power 93 octane on Audi engines to help it run as clean as possible. Since this VW engine is very similar, I am using strictly Shell V-power.


iirc, current US market VW/Audis do not use dual injection setups.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

The G Man said:


> I had a few Audis with carbon build up problems and Know a bit about the subject regarding octane and carbon build up. While most gas brands and gas grades have similar sulfur level, some gas supplier have more cleaning additive than others. Even among the same brand, sometime the higher octane gas will have more detergent additive than the lower grades.
> So what happens when we put lower octane gas into a car that is programmed for higher octane? Like many here already know, the knock sensor will detect pre-ignition before you can hear or feel it and retard the timing to compensate. After a while, the computer will try to advance the timing again because it is program to run at a more advance timing, when it do so, it will detect knock again because you are still using 87 gas, the timing is retarded once again. This cycle starts over and over and creates a cycle of knocking that the driver does not detect because it is so mild. Knocking comes from pre-ignition or a incomplete combustion cycle. These incomplete combustion cycles generate carbon build up. Since the pre-ignition happens with the intake valve in the wrong position, it will cause more carbon build up inside the valve. In the long run, the build up will rob the engine of power and efficiency. One of the advantage of this particular VW is the dual injection setup, port injection and direct injection. The post injection is suppose to clean up the carbon in the intake valves, I guess the question is will the knocking cause more carbon build than the port injector can clean, that's the million dollar question.
> One of my old Audi mechanic used to tell me, use only Shell V-power 93 octane on Audi engines to help it run as clean as possible. Since this VW engine is very similar, I am using strictly Shell V-power.


The EA888 Gen3 version of the engine has virtually eliminated a carbon buildup issue.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

beaumisbro said:


> iirc, current US market VW/Audis do not use dual injection setups.


As our emission standards don't need it.


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## vw_service_advisor (Aug 10, 2017)

The G Man said:


> I had a few Audis with carbon build up problems and Know a bit about the subject regarding octane and carbon build up. While most gas brands and gas grades have similar sulfur level, some gas supplier have more cleaning additive than others. Even among the same brand, sometime the higher octane gas will have more detergent additive than the lower grades.
> So what happens when we put lower octane gas into a car that is programmed for higher octane? Like many here already know, the knock sensor will detect pre-ignition before you can hear or feel it and retard the timing to compensate. After a while, the computer will try to advance the timing again because it is program to run at a more advance timing, when it do so, it will detect knock again because you are still using 87 gas, the timing is retarded once again. This cycle starts over and over and creates a cycle of knocking that the driver does not detect because it is so mild. Knocking comes from pre-ignition or a incomplete combustion cycle. These incomplete combustion cycles generate carbon build up. Since the pre-ignition happens with the intake valve in the wrong position, it will cause more carbon build up inside the valve. In the long run, the build up will rob the engine of power and efficiency. One of the advantage of this particular VW is the dual injection setup, port injection and direct injection. The post injection is suppose to clean up the carbon in the intake valves, I guess the question is will the knocking cause more carbon build than the port injector can clean, that's the million dollar question.
> One of my old Audi mechanic used to tell me, use only Shell V-power 93 octane on Audi engines to help it run as clean as possible. Since this VW engine is very similar, I am using strictly Shell V-power.


Definitely agree. The amount of cleaning additives added to each brand’s fuel is as big of a deal as proper octane.

It’s emphasized in owner’s manuals as well. The site to reference for an official list of VW approved gas stations is https://www.toptiergas.com/

Only thing Id add is that our experience with 18 and 19 models running a 2.0 or 1.4 so far has also has taught me to look for busy gas stations that need new gas deliveries more often. These fuel systems are really sensitive to bad fuel for some reason.

The issue manifests as a CEL with a single cylinder misfire. Best case you run the tank out, add VW fuel additive and good gas (VW will pay for the additive once per a TSB), sometimes we have to drop the tank and clean it via an insurance claim if the problem persists though. In the middle of one right now where that wasn’t enough and Techline is having us do all the injectors.

Honestly been surprised I haven’t seen this issue come up more on vortex.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

beaumisbro said:


> iirc, current US market VW/Audis do not use dual injection setups.


Correct, next he's gonna say the Arteon has a GPF (gas particulate filter) as well.


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## chrisMk6TDi (Dec 10, 2011)

beaumisbro said:


> iirc, current US market VW/Audis do not use dual injection setups.


I’m confused about this... I know the US R does not have MPI, but I I thought that the Arteon’s motor did? Do you have a source?


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

chrisMk6TDi said:


> I’m confused about this... I know the US R does not have MPI, but I I thought that the Arteon’s motor did? Do you have a source?


Not needed in the USA, only for European emission requirements.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

According to car and driver, we do not have dual port injectors. I was hoping we did as my wife's Lexus has it and she has no carbon build up at all with her Lexus. I guess I will keep using Shell V power as well as try to use busy gas stations and keep my fingers cross.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a27354973/2019-volkswagen-arteon-by-the-numbers/


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

chrisMk6TDi said:


> I’m confused about this... I know the US R does not have MPI, but I I thought that the Arteon’s motor did? Do you have a source?


I don't recall where I read/heard it, but locating the port injectors should be fairly easy on the engine.
I can take a look later today.
If someone has access to ETKA, that might be helpful too. 

I did call my local VW/Audi shop and they confirmed (US Market) DLRA/DLRB motors are DI only.


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## SDArteon (Jun 16, 2019)

beaumisbro said:


> I don't recall where I read/heard it, but locating the port injectors should be fairly easy on the engine.
> I can take a look later today.
> If someone has access to ETKA, that might be helpful too.
> 
> I did call my local VW/Audi shop and they confirmed (US Market) DLRA/DLRB motors are DI only.


I'd like to add, after research on my Audi, reading engineering articles, talking to mechanics, including removing the manifold and cleaning all 16 intake valves and ports myself is that carbon build up is actually coming from more than 1 source:

- oily vapour from the crankcase ( people use so called catch-cans with limited sucess)
- oil leaking down the valve stem - this is the black shiny varnish on the stem
- combustion products that swirl (scavenge) back in to the air intake ports - this is due the the valve timing overlap between exhaust and intake valve opening angles. I am not sure, but i believe the timing is different on EU vs US and the engine in EU is lean burn, so the combustion products are not the same either ( low sulfur fuel is used extensively in Eu and also now in california, but I dont think this is the major problem. Its those combustion particles and the oily vapor that causes the build up over time - it coats the walls of the intake ports 5-8 mm thick, not just the backs of the valves.

I used only top tier Shell 91 Octane from new and it made no difference in both our cars - 2008 S5 and 2010 passat both had to be cleaned at 75K miles. This is using CA gas.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

Early direct injection engine sure did have its share of problems, carbon build up is on top of the list. Thats why the Japanese stay away from D I engines at the early stages. Some of the carbon build up issues has been resolved with oil mist separators but the problem still exist to a certain extent. In my opinion, low octane, minimum detergent level or dirty gas can certainly add to the carbon build up problem but the problem stems from the original design and if you feed it dirty fuel which creates incomplete combustion cycles, take short trips often, long idles time or you baby the car too much, your engine will get dirtier faster.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

chrisMk6TDi said:


> I’m confused about this... I know the US R does not have MPI, but I I thought that the Arteon’s motor did? Do you have a source?


if Audis don't have it, VW certainly won't have it.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

beaumisbro said:


> I don't recall where I read/heard it, but locating the port injectors should be fairly easy on the engine.
> I can take a look later today.
> If someone has access to ETKA, that might be helpful too.
> 
> I did call my local VW/Audi shop and they confirmed (US Market) DLRA/DLRB motors are DI only.


MPI has been a common HP gain or E85 compatible mod in the R world for quite some time, even adaptable to the EA888 1.8t too boot.

I just wish someone would offer an "eco MPI kit" for those that want it more for preventable maintenance than crazy HP numbers.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Dieseldog12 said:


> ....I just wish someone would offer an "eco MPI kit" for those that want it more for preventable maintenance than crazy HP numbers.


For what benefit? State facts, not internet myth.


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## steelepony95 (Sep 28, 2008)

*Regular vs Premium - a sorta simple answer*

1) When a vehicle is newer, it Typically can run of LESS octane, due to the fact that almost no build-up has occured in the engine.

2) However, sea level vs altitude - Sea level requires MORE octane (more air available) than say 5,000 feet (less air means a more enriched air/fuel ratio) hence, may be able to run with less octane.

Example: At 5,000 feet, a non turbo car looses approx. 15% power (3% for every 1,000 feet) - basic laws of physics. However, a turbo vehicle (such as your ARTEON) not so really affected, because the TURBO is cramming air into the engine.

Anyway, with a turbo, always may be a safe bet to run the higher octane. Your vehicle does have a 9.3:1 compression ratio (lower because it is turbocharged) so you MAY BE ABLE to get by on 89 octane. I would run 91 (or 93 where it is available)

What's a little preventative precaution compared to the cost of an engine?

You could always install a methanol system - it would allow you to run multiple levels of octane; however, this is not a cheap way to go. It is always safer to run a little rich (more gas, less air) than lean (less gas, more air) LEAN ENGINES can burn a hole in your pistons.

Hope this helps

BTW . . . how do you like the ARTEON? Have yet to see one on the road.


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## GREENGIANT83 (Feb 3, 2016)

For what it’s worth, my 2000 Passat stated 91 octane for fuel. I ran the car for a month on 87 and got an avg MPG of 30. I then ran it with 91 octane for a month and got an avg MPG of 38, so I was getting an extra 128 miles to a tank on 91 vs. 87. So the entire time I owned my 2000 Passat, I used 91 octane only as it was cheaper in the long run, though more expensive in the short run as far as cost per tank. I’d say do a month of each and monitor your mileage and fuel consumption and see what’s better.


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## OnePCWhiz (May 24, 2019)

*89 and 93 mix*

I can only get 87, 89, and 93. (Raleigh, NC area)

Can I get buy half 89 and half 93 to make 91?

I've got a 2004 Passat Wagon V6.

Thanks in advance.


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## buffym (Jul 11, 2019)

In my Google searches, I discovered that Sunoco gas stations in the east coast supposedly have 91 octane gas, but I have yet to confirm this in person.


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## chrisMk6TDi (Dec 10, 2011)

buffym said:


> In my Google searches, I discovered that Sunoco gas stations in the east coast supposedly have 91 octane gas, but I have yet to confirm this in person.


Yes- every Sunoco I’ve been to in MA has 87,89,91,93 octane.


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## irishone57 (Jun 5, 2019)

*unleaded gasoline*

Premium gasoline burns slower insuring better combustion 87 unleaded burns faster for incomplete combustion plus you get better gas mileage on premium


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## suspicionofignorance (Jun 13, 2017)

buffym said:


> In my Google searches, I discovered that Sunoco gas stations in the east coast supposedly have 91 octane gas, but I have yet to confirm this in person.


Yes...all Sunoco stations in NJ and nearby states offer 91 on the pumps...and the stations seem to be on every corner,....Easy for Sunoco...custom blending from just 2 main tanks...Besides, it's the fuel of Nascar...has to be good...Ha!


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## kirk_augustin (Jul 21, 2012)

Anyone using anything less than the highest octane available in a turbo charged engine, is an idiot.
You don't save money using regular in a high compression situation like a turbocharged engine, because it get much worse power and therefore mileage, with regular.
Premium will cost you less because you will use much less of it, with more advanced ignition timing and therefore more power.

But what I read is that it is the TSI engine, so has direct injection, (not dual injection), and then gasoline octane is less important.


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## ebec8227 (Oct 7, 2015)

I have a turbo Jetta GLI turbo that has a 10.3:1 compression ratio. If I were going to the office 24 miles away during the week, I used 87 octane, it was cheaper. If I used premium for "spirited driving" then it's a 93 octane (and preferably a no-alcohol gasoline, at a 20% higher cost in my area). I also had a 85' GLI Jetta with a 10.5:1. The differences are immediate: more power, greater fuel efficiencies, bigger grin index. Your motor is between needing the low 87 (with 15 alcohol) and premium 93 (with alcohol). "Yes" you will see a huge difference with "spirited driving", more power, and better fuel economy so using a higher grade of gasoline may help with efficiency but you may want to do some comparisons per mile. My thoughts: if you are driving a grind to go to work and back, use the 87 octane and live with it. It works in an int long run you may save 1-3% in fuel costs. If you want to be "Johnny-Hammer the throttle and grin", use what is recommended for your motor as stated by your gas cap. But...that's a big but, the good gas will want you to hammer the motor more and you'll see a loss in $/mile. There are some articles I've read over the years that say, "The cost of 93 octane results with more power and lower fuel efficiency an 87 octane if your combustion ration is less than 10/1", or some such crap. They had graphs/charts/data to prove their point, so I believe them. And, you never know when you need to hammer the throttle to get out of a bad situation, so there's that. Since then I've been retired, the only gas I put in my Turbo VW is premium as my mileage is much lower and I tend to baby my motor. Remember: for every 5% of alcohol in your gasoline you can expect a 3-4% loss in performance.


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## SDArteon (Jun 16, 2019)

But you don't have any control over the "richness" as the engine management sytem works to hold, lambda, the stoichiometric air fuel ratio, constant. The knock sensor also detects "pinging" and automatically retards the ignition to prevent damage, witth corresponding loss of power. Lean burn requires a different ignition map based upon the fuel available in the market in to which the car is sold. In the US, if I am not mistaken, not many engine are lean burn because the fuel quality is not good enough to support that combustion type, namely stratified injection. Thats my undertsanding for waht its worth.


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## cpogordon (Jul 12, 2019)

I'll be using Premium after the first tank. I asked the dealership if they will be pumping premium fuel in my Arteon when it arrives and they said no and that they would only be putting 87 Octane in it so I'll be running 87 Octane for at least a half a tank before I pump some 93 Octane into it.


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## snowj720 (Apr 9, 2018)

My Alltrack is rated for 87, but I do 93 and even throw a couple gallons of e85 in (which levels out the cost and in theory bumps the octane a bit). 87 isn't going to kill your engine, but why not give it the best fuel possible? I paid about half for my AT that you did for your vehicle and I'm willing to give it at least 91 for longevity. Why not afford your ride the same piece of mind? Unless it's a lease, then do what you want. The next guy can deal with it.


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## Jonathan Shefftz (May 19, 2019)

zackiedawg said:


> A nice compromise is to find a gas station local to you that offers mid-grade premium gas. Virtually all stations have 87 (regular), 89 (mid), and 93/94 (premium) octanes. A few stations add a 4th grade - at 91 octane...it's the low end of premium and matches the fuel recommendation for the Arteon. I always use premium, but I have a station that is on my commute home from work that has the 91 option, and I'll use them when possible.


I got all excited when I pulled into the highway rest stop for my first fill-up and the brand was Sunoco: both Top Tier *and* 91!
Except that the 91 was only 2 cents less than 93, yet 20 cents more than 89.
So if you have another minute or so, will the gas mix sufficiently in the tank such that splitting the fill-up between 89 and 93 would be the same as 91?

And in case this horse isn't sufficient dead already, I don't think this has been posted here yet:
https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content...ium-Fuel-Phase-II-Research-Report-FINAL-2.pdf


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

Jonathan Shefftz said:


> I got all excited when I pulled into the highway rest stop for my first fill-up and the brand was Sunoco: both Top Tier *and* 91!
> Except that the 91 was only 2 cents less than 93, yet 20 cents more than 89.
> So if you have another minute or so, will the gas mix sufficiently in the tank such that splitting the fill-up between 89 and 93 would be the same as 91?
> 
> ...


IIRC, the gas stations only carry 89 & 93 in the tanks. The two are mixed 50:50 to deliver 91 at the pump.


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## Jonathan Shefftz (May 19, 2019)

beaumisbro said:


> IIRC, the gas stations only carry 89 & 93 in the tanks. The two are mixed 50:50 to deliver 91 at the pump.


And then Sunoco apparently applies a 2:20 price mix to that 50:50 fuel mix!


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

Jonathan Shefftz said:


> I got all excited when I pulled into the highway rest stop for my first fill-up and the brand was Sunoco: both Top Tier *and* 91!
> Except that the 91 was only 2 cents less than 93, yet 20 cents more than 89.
> So if you have another minute or so, will the gas mix sufficiently in the tank such that splitting the fill-up between 89 and 93 would be the same as 91?
> 
> ...


So what if it doesn't mix well, it will average out to about 90-92 octane give or take.


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## zackiedawg (Jul 21, 2000)

The price gap is definitely greater here between 89, 91, and 93. My local station is at $2.83 for 89, $2.93 for 91, and $3.13 for 93...so it's about 10 cents more than 89 but 20 cents cheaper than 93...I know in the short run, 20 cents isn't all that much - but it still feels good to save $2.50-$3 a tank and still get the recommended octane level in the car. Gas is fairly expensive in S Florida, but I have the advantage of working and living right across a county line - my home county has much higher gas prices than the county I work in - so just filling up on the south side of the county line will save me 20-30 cents a gallon...throw in the 91 octane which I can't get in any stations in my home city, and the difference can be as much as 50 cents a gallon.

I don't think I'd bother with 91 if 93 was only 2 cents more. Though mixing grades would work if you were willing to go through the process, it's more time and trouble than it would be worth to me, especially as I wouldn't want to put all of one octane in, then the other half with the other - I think it would be better to mix them a little more proportionately, which would require shutting off every few gallons and switching again.


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## ice4life (Nov 6, 2017)

To add to the complication, I live in Denver where the elevation is about 5600 feet. I grew up on the east coast (NY, VA, FL) where the gas grades were 87, 91, 93. Here, the grades are 85, 87, 91 due to the higher elevation. I put 91 in because it recommends premium. I know some of the new VW turbo engines are running on regular, but they are tuned differently. 

I don't like paying extra for premium, but I find the gas mileage is relatively good enough to offset the difference in price. For example, even though the Atlas we were driving for about 1,000 miles ran on regular, it was horrendous around town on gas which made it effectively more expensive to operate.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

ice4life said:


> .....know some of the new VW turbo engines are running on regular, but they are tuned differently......


Very much doubt the tune is different at all the engines can run on 87 just fine.


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## Ace Deprave (Jun 8, 2012)

Interesting article regarding this subject:

https://www.caranddriver.com/review...onda-cr-v-vs-bmw-m5-ford-f-150-dodge-charger/


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## rcprato (Sep 14, 2007)

SDArteon said:


> I'd like to add, after research on my Audi, reading engineering articles, talking to mechanics, including removing the manifold and cleaning all 16 intake valves and ports myself is that carbon build up is actually coming from more than 1 source:
> 
> - oily vapour from the crankcase ( people use so called catch-cans with limited sucess)
> - oil leaking down the valve stem - this is the black shiny varnish on the stem
> ...


With DI design the injector is spraying directly into the combustion chamber I believe, only air is going through the intake valve and because the gas is not vaporized with the air in the intake manifold before going through the open intake valve(s) the cleaning agents in the gasoline can't do their job and clean carbon deposits off the intake valves.

Most of the carbon deposits on the intake valves is from the crankcase evaporation system sending the oily vapors from the crankcase to the combustion chamber to be burned before being released into the environment.

I have had luck with reducing carbon build up in upper intake by using the Ravenol VMO VW Spec oil, seems to have significantly less burn off than Castrol that is used by dealers and Mobil 1 you can get at Walmart.


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## rcprato (Sep 14, 2007)

https://youtu.be/LjJSbHxIvnM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

SDArteon said:


> I'd like to add, after research on my Audi, reading engineering articles, talking to mechanics, including removing the manifold and cleaning all 16 intake valves and ports myself is that carbon build up is actually coming from more than 1 source:
> 
> - oily vapour from the crankcase ( people use so called catch-cans with limited sucess)
> - oil leaking down the valve stem - this is the black shiny varnish on the stem
> ...


100,000 miles between cleaning on my old 2008 Passat, using mostly Shell gas.

98,000 miles on my 2016 Tiguan and hasn't started to misfire yet... that was about 50,000 miles on Shell, and the rest is primarily Arco.

What is causing it is also the valve timing overlap, to simulate the effects of an EGR valve. Back on my old TDI, with direct injection, the EGR valve would cause the intake manifold to plug up, in combination with PCV oil.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

rcprato said:


> With DI design the injector is spraying directly into the combustion chamber I believe, only air is going through the intake valve and because the gas is not vaporized with the air in the intake manifold before going through the open intake valve(s) the cleaning agents in the gasoline can't do their job and clean carbon deposits off the intake valves.
> 
> Most of the carbon deposits on the intake valves is from the crankcase evaporation system sending the oily vapors from the crankcase to the combustion chamber to be burned before being released into the environment.
> 
> I have had luck with reducing carbon build up in upper intake by using the Ravenol VMO VW Spec oil, seems to have significantly less burn off than Castrol that is used by dealers and Mobil 1 you can get at Walmart.


VW/Audi solved the issue with the current engines. What was true 5 years ago isn't true anymore.


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## Jonathan Shefftz (May 19, 2019)

Anyone here dare to offer an informed opinion -- or even just baseless speculation! -- as to whether Stop & Shop gas stations might really be using Shell Top Tier gas given the apparent ties between the two:
https://stopandshop.com/gas-program/

While filling up my old Subaru Legacy for the last time yesterday, I noticed that my nearby Pride station has very reasonably priced 92 octane -- but not Top Tier.

And the previously Top Tier nearby Irving stations recently became Circle K.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

I've always stuck with Irving, as they are the closest refinery St John NB (with a port in Portsmouth NH and Searsport ME) thus I feel better keeping money in the local economy. But alas i've seen multiple non branded tanker trucks dropping fuel at the local station so i honestly have no idea what they are dispensing. 

Circle K is just the convince store arm that has partnered with numerous irving stations.


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## Jonathan Shefftz (May 19, 2019)

Yep, you're right, the pumps are still Irving at the two gas stations I drive by on my return from trips up north.
I had been confused b/c the AAA app lists them as Circle K, and without a Top Tier graphic.
Very happy for that, as that's the most convenient Top Tier location for me.
(Assuming that Irving really is honoring its Top Tier status...)


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## VdubArty (Oct 23, 2019)

Just bringing this topic back but what does everyone use in their Arteon's?? I use 93 but recently gas stations are getting rid of 93 and have this new 92 and not 93 anymore. Because I seen only 87 89 and 93.


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## vdubs kopfschuss GLI (Sep 25, 2014)

in my region we only have 91. which sucks.
but my tune is specifically for 91 so it works out.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

VdubArty said:


> Just bringing this topic back but what does everyone use in their Arteon's?? I use 93 but recently gas stations are getting rid of 93 and have this new 92 and not 93 anymore. Because I seen only 87 89 and 93.


Wawa in the PA and NJ area charge you 93 octane prices and you get 92 octane. Makes it a little tricky when you're tuned to 93 octane and you really need gas


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## VdubArty (Oct 23, 2019)

BsickPassat said:


> Wawa in the PA and NJ area charge you 93 octane prices and you get 92 octane. Makes it a little tricky when you're tuned to 93 octane and you really need gas


Yea good thing I'm not tuned and kind of crazy the gas stations are doing this.......


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## buffym (Jul 11, 2019)

VdubArty said:


> Just bringing this topic back but what does everyone use in their Arteon's?? I use 93 but recently gas stations are getting rid of 93 and have this new 92 and not 93 anymore. Because I seen only 87 89 and 93.


Wow I had no idea that was going on. The Arteon needs at least 91 though, so I think 92 should still be okay?


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## zackiedawg (Jul 21, 2000)

buffym said:


> Wow I had no idea that was going on. The Arteon needs at least 91 though, so I think 92 should still be okay?


92 will be fine. For the first 9 months or so, I was using mostly 91 in mine. Almost all stations in my area carry the typical 87, 89, and 93 options, but I had one that was convenient and on the way home from work that had the 4th choice of a 91. I had also been using that in my Audi Allroad for the 4 prior years, which had the same 91 minimum requirement as the Arteon. Never had any issues.
Unfortunately that station got overhauled, and stopped offering the 91 mid-grade with their new pumps, so there was no point going there anymore - there was a station closer to my office with cheaper 93, and now that 93 is my only choice, that's what I've been using since. If I ever found another station offering 91, I'd get it - it was on average .10 to .12 cents cheaper per gallon - it's not much, but it's a couple bucks a week less and no difference in how the car drives with it.


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## Arteon Wayne (Jun 9, 2020)

Living in the southeast, we only have 87, 89, and 93 here, so 2 octanes of overkill for the required 91 on the car. I've never seen 92.


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## VdubArty (Oct 23, 2019)

Arteon Wayne said:


> Living in the southeast, we only have 87, 89, and 93 here, so 2 octanes of overkill for the required 91 on the car. I've never seen 92.



I'll post a picture when I get gas later its called their new premium gas lol Sheetz and Getgo are doing it so far and I'm sure more are likely get rid of 93 smh......


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## vdubs kopfschuss GLI (Sep 25, 2014)

i wish the mid west would get with the times and get 93 in our area...i would love the 92 octane tune on my car.


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## EPilot (Jul 27, 1999)

BsickPassat said:


> Wawa in the PA and NJ area charge you 93 octane prices and you get 92 octane. Makes it a little tricky when you're tuned to 93 octane and you really need gas


Where are you getting this information from? There are pumps that have both 92 and 93 at Wawa's and charge accordingly. 
If you have evidence of octane bait and switch the NJ Office of Weights and Measures would like to know.





Pages - Office of Weights and Measures


New Jersey Division of Consumer Affairs




www.njconsumeraffairs.gov


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## VdubArty (Oct 23, 2019)

Here is the picture I meant to upload.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

EPilot said:


> Where are you getting this information from? There are pumps that have both 92 and 93 at Wawa's and charge accordingly.
> If you have evidence of octane bait and switch the NJ Office of Weights and Measures would like to know.
> 
> 
> ...


When I lived in the area, their 92 octane prices where the same as other stations 93 octane.


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## EPilot (Jul 27, 1999)

BsickPassat said:


> When I lived in the area, their 92 octane prices where the same as other stations 93 octane.


So that somehow means they were selling 92 octane as 93???? I don't get the correlation.


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