# Sticky? 2.5 L engine spec & info



## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

170 hp @ 5700 rpm 
177 torq @ 4200 rpm 
5 cylinders 20 valves 4 per cylinder 
Compression ratio: 9:5:1 
Dual overhead cams 


(btw my roommates son wrecked 
Her 2012 bug, I am looking into 
getting the engine & trans , also have a quantum nearby) 

Would a mk1 scirocco 2.5 swap be easier if I made the engine in line with a 4x4 syncro trans ? 
I believe or fits the quantum syncro bell housing


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

5-cylinder in-line engine 
Displacement 
151 cu. in. (2480cc) 
Firing Order 
1-2-4-5-3 
Bore 
3.25 in. (82.5mm) 
Stroke 
3.65 in. (92.8mm) 
Valves per cylinder 
4 
Compression ratio 
10:1 


You'll have an easier time mounting to one of the flavors of Quattro. If you're wanting a longetudinal setup, I'd say take the Torsen system out of a the last body style of S4. 

The transmissions in these cars are the same bellhousings as MKV and MKVI Jetta and Golf 2.0T TSI and FSI motors. The R32 Halidex straps will work, but not their transmissions which have a lager flange on the bellhousing. 

If you're needing engine management, take a look at what Integrated Engineering or give C2 Motorsports a call. IE and C2 have both fully plotted the maps for the VW 2.5L and you should be able to have them set you up. No telling what the EMS will cost, but they have the products. 

BTW that ECU in that Beetle is a damn nightmare. You'll need something along the lines of an Alientech K-Tag to flash it. If you don't run standalone get ready to drop a few Gs on tuning tools & software.


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## MasterJetti08 (Mar 1, 2012)

While were on the subject of engine specs, what is the difference in the two different 2.5L's that causes such a big difference of the 150hp and the 170hp ones?


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

Simple I guess the 10:1 comp engine has 170 hp 
The 150 hp one must be the 9:5:1 

I read somewhere the 2.5 beetle engines are easier to put in a mk1 
Only need to mod 2 motor mounts. Keep stock trans and use stock axles 

And the beetle ecu and harness I'm not using the display or cluster 
But would be nice 

Engine has 5k miles only reason I'm interested in it


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

scirocconaut said:


> Simple I guess the 10:1 comp engine has 170 hp
> The 150 hp one must be the 9:5:1
> 
> I read somewhere the 2.5 beetle engines are easier to put in a mk1
> ...


 2012 & 2013 "Beetles" are A7 platform, whereas all previous "New Beetles" were A4 platform. 

What motor do you have currently? 

You should PM a banner advertiser here "nothing-leaves-stock". He put a 2.5L into his wife's MKI Rabbit.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

MasterJetti08 said:


> While were on the subject of engine specs, what is the difference in the two different 2.5L's that causes such a big difference of the 150hp and the 170hp ones?


 Tuning and timing chain setups mostly. There are a few other differences internally, but not too many.


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

Agpmotor 

Nothing leaves stock used a rabbit motor that has different dimensions supposedly 

I am not paying them to do it, and I've already read their build threads 
I'm going to use the stock ecu until I find a better engine management system


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

scirocconaut said:


> Agpmotor


 The 1.9L SDI naturally aspirated Diesel? You're going to need to do a LOT more than just swap the engine --the gear stepping is TOTALLY different in a diesel transmission. 

You'd be better off swapping the whole powertrain, gauges, harness and everything else you can get to fit if you are going from an oil burner to a gasser. I'd plan on geting a new fuel tank, pump and lines for the Scirocco while I was at it too. 





scirocconaut said:


> Nothing leaves stock used a rabbit motor that has different dimensions supposedly


 No it doesn't. NLS's MKI Rabbit has a motor from the A5 platform. 

The 2012 Beetle is one the same platform the 2013-B to ~201X Golf/Rabbit/GTI/GTD/Rxx is going to be on. A7. 

The 2007-2013A Rabbit/Golf/GTI/GTD/2008 R32 are all on the A5 platform. These cars are essentially all the same. My 2013 Golf is essentially just a 2009 Rabbit when you strip away the new body kit. 

All of the "New Beetle" year models were on the A4 platform. This is the platform that had the MK4 Golf 1.8T 1.9 TDI, VR6 GTI, and 2004 R32. 

I think you've been reading up on modifications to the older A4 platform based "New Beetles." That 2012 is a Beetle. It's a TOTALLY different car than the "New Beetle". VW released the Beetle to test the A7 platform before they dropped the A7 Golf line on it. 



scirocconaut said:


> I am not paying them to do it, and I've already read their build threads


 I can see why you wouldn't want too pay him to do it. He does amazing work, but to keep a company with a niche like that in business takes large price tags 



scirocconaut said:


> I'm going to use the stock ecu until I find a better engine management system


 Unless you have $3k+ to spend on equipment and software, you can't pull that off. This one I'm telling you from a decade and a half of ECU tuning experience and my personal struggle with the this ME 17.5 ECU. 

I'm personally about to spend $2,500 just on the tools and software to tune my own car b/c I'm as stubborn as a mule about tuning my own damn cars personally. I think I may have to spend even more since my version of WinOLS is too old to write the newer chksums for these ECUs. The tools to write newer VAG ECU code isn't the cheap stuff you can use for Fords or GMs. The files are now stored on the very processors themselves, and you have to pay serious cash to have someone else plot them all out for you. 

If you're dead set of using that 2012 ECU, call C2 Motorsports. They can set you up, but I'm not kidding about the price tag. 

If you want to use a stock ECU instead of a standalone, you can retrofit a 2007 Rabbit ECU to the 2012 motor. You'll need the COMPLETE wiring harness and all the sensors. That you'll be able to tune. The speedo functions through the ABS, so be prepared to get the ABS sensors out of a 2007 as well. 

Your other option is a standalone EMS. Integrated Engineering sells standalone complete with maps IIRC. They've had a 2.5L on their engine dyno for a while now prepping some aftermarket parts. You could also ask C2 Motorsports about standalone EMS, and they can set you up too. 

I do know that there is a solid standalone product that is damn near pin-for-pin on the 2.5L that a European member on here built one Hell of a sexy car with. This might be your easiest solution, but it's not drop in like you can get for the 1.8T or 1.9TDI motors.


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

It's a cbu sorry  not agp


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

It's a cbu sorry  not agp 

I'm trying to find the buy out value for the bug before the owner sends it off to the insurance agency I'll call tomorrow 

I want the engine, trans wiring, wheels, steering knuckles, brake calipers etc 

I don't want to get undersold but I may be picking up a Audi v5 plus 4x4 setup to do it easier 

I wanted to make this thread anyway to show the specs in one spot


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

This thread is just full of incorrect info


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

jettaglx91 said:


> This thread is just full of incorrect info


lol, what did you expect?


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

bobsuncle said:


> I'm personally about to spend $2,500 just on the tools and software to tune my own car b/c I'm as stubborn as a mule about tuning my own damn cars personally. I think I may have to spend even more since my version of WinOLS is too old to write the newer chksums for these ECUs. The tools to write newer VAG ECU code isn't the cheap stuff you can use for Fords or GMs. The files are now stored on the very processors themselves, and you have to pay serious cash to have someone else plot them all out for you.


what tool are you planning on buying exactly? $2500 is an odd number. most are really cheap clones or very pricey genuine tools. ktag maybe is a few thousand but i can only think of the x17 as the next cheapest thing to do new medc17 and its about $4k. (i have one btw if you have any questions about it).


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

reflected said:


> what tool are you planning on buying exactly? $2500 is an odd number. most are really cheap clones or very pricey genuine tools. ktag maybe is a few thousand but i can only think of the x17 as the next cheapest thing to do new medc17 and its about $4k. (i have one btw if you have any questions about it).


so it seems x17 doesnt read me17.5. or the ecu i got is bunk. one of the two. 
its a tc1766 cpu. tc1766 bootloader is of course an option with x17 but that is also med17.5 so the protocol may be different. im sure the password is different.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

We definitely can tune a stock Beetle computer with no issues. It only costs what the flash costs, there is NO additional hardware you would need to have that computer tuned.


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

Huh, I thought both 150hp and 170hp had 9.5:1 compression


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

Didn't UM recently run and tune turbo 170hp 2.5 on 14 psi stock engine. Or was that in fact 150hp one with possibly lower compression?


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

Im pretty sure both engines are 9.5:1.


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Im pretty sure both engines are 9.5:1.


so what are you guys using? bysteshooter?


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## MK5CNY (Sep 4, 2007)

This thread still open? Go here for info
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5463098-2.5L-basic-info


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

reflected said:


> so what are you guys using? bysteshooter?


C2 Motorsports is also home to Alientech USA, and all of Alientech's products are incredibly high quality. The only downside is that it's built with professional tuners in mind, so it's significantly more powerful and significantly more pricey than systems like Bully Dog, Hondata, or SCT.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

vr6-kamil said:


> Didn't UM recently run and tune turbo 170hp 2.5 on 14 psi stock engine. Or was that in fact 150hp one with possibly lower compression?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


450 is the extreme limit of the stock 2009+ 2.5L. It's really best to quit @ 400WHP.



[email protected] said:


> Im pretty sure both engines are 9.5:1.


The engine info I posted was a direct cut and paste from the Self Study program.



reflected said:


> what tool are you planning on buying exactly? $2500 is an odd number. most are really cheap clones or very pricey genuine tools. ktag maybe is a few thousand but i can only think of the x17 as the next cheapest thing to do new medc17 and its about $4k. (i have one btw if you have any questions about it).


I'm buying a Ktag master, but that's not the expensive bit. The pricey bits are the tuning software and maps/drivers. I don't want an unlimited access to the system, so my costs are including the "credits" I need for the MED 17 protocol.



[email protected] said:


> We definitely can tune a stock Beetle computer with no issues. It only costs what the flash costs, there is NO additional hardware you would need to have that computer tuned.


I was assuming he was going to try and tune it himself if he was debating standalone. Chris can make that ECU work, but unless the OP's gauges will work with just a tach signal there may be issues.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

jettaglx91 said:


> This thread is just full of incorrect info


Cool. Which parts?



thygreyt said:


> lol, what did you expect?


Glass houses and stones. Your incorrect information made my search for tuning tools and software significantly harder than it should have been. As a matter of fact, you damn near had me convinced that DIYers were just SOL before Chris at C2 set me straight.


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

bobsuncle said:


> I'm buying a Ktag master, but that's not the expensive bit. The pricey bits are the tuning software and maps/drivers. I don't want an unlimited access to the system, so my costs are including the "credits" I need for the MED 17 protocol.


eh? this 2.5l ecu is me17.5, NOT med17.5.x. i have tried med17.5 tc1766 bootloader protocol with x17 and it was a no go. a friend of mine has a ktag so im going to go tomorrow and see if his tool will read it. he says the only me17.5 listed is a kia though. lol.


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

bobsuncle said:


> C2 Motorsports is also home to Alientech USA, and all of Alientech's products are incredibly high quality. The only downside is that it's built with professional tuners in mind, so it's significantly more powerful and significantly more pricey than systems like Bully Dog, Hondata, or SCT.


ha! i forgot about that actually. my friends ktag came from them.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

reflected said:


> eh? this 2.5l ecu is me17.5, NOT med17.5.x. i have tried med17.5 tc1766 bootloader protocol with x17 and it was a no go. a friend of mine has a ktag so im going to go tomorrow and see if his tool will read it. he says the only me17.5 listed is a kia though. lol.





reflected said:


> ha! i forgot about that actually. my friends ktag came from them.


A K-Tag will work for any infineon tricore from what Chris told me.

BTW: Do yourself a favor and cut a hole in the ECU case so you can leave a lead soldered to the PCB of the ECU to avoid having to heat cycle the damn thing every time you want to flash it. If you putty it in right it'll be air and water tight --and if you set the lead up properly you'll be able to flash it every additional time w/o removing it from the car.


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

i spent $35 on this me17. i could care less if its trashed.
btw, if you tune it properly, you dont need that lead.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

reflected said:


> i spent $35 on this me17. i could care less if its trashed.
> btw, if you tune it properly, you dont need that lead.


Do you not tweak your tune just b/c you're bored?

And did you clone your stock ME17? I'd LOVE to clone my stocker for warranty and whatnot...


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

i dont own an me17 car. only edc16 and edc17. but by properly tuned i meant tp patched.
otp means no cloning. 

anyways, it helps if i use the right pin for bootpin. 

TPROT_V03.00.00



> =========================================
> Reading ECU data, please wait...
> PROCESSOR TYPE: TC1766/TC1762
> Internal Flash sector configuration:
> ...


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## rustlerdude (Aug 13, 2007)

From 2005.5-2007 Four engines were used. All were 150 HP. 
BGP (federal emissions) Jetta/golf, BGQ, Cali emissions- jetta/golf, BPS, federal emissions beetle, and BPR cali emissions beetle.

From 08 to 10, The BPR and BPS beetle engines were the same HP and specs.

From 08 the 2.5 is bumped to 170 HP from software and intake manifold upgrade

In 09, MAF was dumped for MAP system. ( except early 09 sportwagen, it had maf) 

08-13 engine codes are CBUA (cali emissions) and CBTA (federal emissions). 

In '11, The exhaust manifold uses individual header tubes and a variable oil pump. It uses a high/low function. It's default to high until 1000 KM, then under 3k rpm ish it uses low pressure and above that it uses high pressure. 

All engines : Cali emissions uses three oxygen sensors while federal uses two.

When the redesigned intake manifold came about in 08, the runners are shorter and the powerband increased to a higher rpm. 

All 2.5's use variable intake cam timing

All are 9.5:1 compression. 

All use cylinder 5 as top dead center instead of 1.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

rustlerdude said:


> All are 9.5:1 compression.


Where is this from? Every single VW self study .pdf I have says 10:1

The only places I see 9.5:1 are on forums. Is VWOA saying something in their lit that is incorrect?


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

bobsuncle said:


> Where is this from? Every single VW self study .pdf I have says 10:1
> 
> The only places I see 9.5:1 are on forums. Is VWOA saying something in their lit that is incorrect?


Yeah! Even my owners manual says its 10:1 so I don't get it. Y would VW manual be wrong.

I have an '09 by the way

Maybe 150hp is 9.5:1 and 170hp is 10:1


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

vr6-kamil said:


> Yeah! Even my owners manual says its 10:1 so I don't get it. Y would VW manual be wrong.
> 
> Maybe 150hp is 9.5:1 and 170hp is 10:1
> 
> ...


I have a 170HP 2013 PZEV motor and it's says 10:1...


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

bobsuncle said:


> I have a 170HP 2013 PZEV motor and it's says 10:1...


Where does it says so? It's wrong.
Vw.com says otherwise


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

> Engines
> ￼2.5L/150 HP 5-Cylinder Engine with 4-Valves per Cylinder
> The 2.5L/150 HP engine has 5 cylinders and 4 valves per cylinder driven by DOHC. This engine is all new for the new Jetta and offers high torque, high performance, low fuel consumption, low emissions and low maintenance.
> Special Features:
> ...


That's a cut and paste of page 26 of the MK5 Jetta self study program.


> 2.5L TFSI Engine Introduction
> Audi’s five-cylinder engines of the 1980s were powerful, sporty engines that reinforced the brand’s “Vorsprung durch Technik” commitment.
> These five-cylinder engines combined the efficiency of a four-cylinder with the power of a six-cylinder, resulting in lighter and more compact engine packages. A turbocharged version was a sensation.
> ￼451_020
> ...


TTRS self study program page 12

I could keep posting more. This is what the dealer parts tool search pulls up if you search for a replacement part too. It's all 10:1.

There may be some weird confusion out at VAG, but why?


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

From my understanding, and this is info Ive been told by the person renowned as probably the best 2.5 tuner in the world, that all 2.5 are 9.5:1. 

The difference between 150hp/170hp is simply marketing. The 170hp has dual cam timing and some small hardware changes for emissions. Both put basically the same power to the wheels. 

Keep in mind when the mk5 chassis came out VW didnt want to hurt sales of the gti with a 170hp rabbit so it was under rated at 150hp. They did the same thing with the mk4 and the 150hp 1.8t compared to the VR6.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

jettaglx91 said:


> From my understanding, and this is info Ive been told by the person renowned as probably the best 2.5 tuner in the world, that all 2.5 are 9.5:1.
> 
> The difference between 150hp/170hp is simply marketing. The 170hp has dual cam timing and some small hardware changes for emissions. Both put basically the same power to the wheels.
> 
> Keep in mind when the mk5 chassis came out VW didnt want to hurt sales of the gti with a 170hp rabbit so it was under rated at 150hp. They did the same thing with the mk4 and the 150hp 1.8t compared to the VR6.


Lol, what do we know? The internet disagrees.

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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> Lol, what do we know? The internet disagrees.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


LOL, where did you get your information? And why is is different from the self study guides?

If you're going to be so condescending, you should at least link the information and resolve the inconsistency between the self study guides and your claims. VAG may very well have posted two different specs for the engines --but the materials I have ALL say 10:1.


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

bobsuncle said:


> LOL, where did you get your information? And why is is different from the self study guides?
> 
> If you're going to be so condescending, you should at least link the information and resolve the inconsistency between the self study guides and your claims. VAG may very well have posted two different specs for the engines --but the materials I have ALL say 10:1.


The info in those is very often wrong. I mean hell look at the Golf R all publications list it as a TSI and even says it on the engine cover lol


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

jettaglx91 said:


> The info in those is very often wrong. I mean hell look at the Golf R all publications list it as a TSI and even says it on the engine cover lol


I can believe that (nobody bothers to hire proofreaders or fact checkers anymore), but where is the proper documentation?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

bobsuncle said:


> LOL, where did you get your information? And why is is different from the self study guides?
> 
> If you're going to be so condescending, you should at least link the information and resolve the inconsistency between the self study guides and your claims. VAG may very well have posted two different specs for the engines --but the materials I have ALL say 10:1.


try the bentley manual, vw.com and the owners manual, for starters


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> try the bentley manual, vw.com and the owners manual, for starters


Link me, please b/c owners manual defo says 10:1. You're telling me there's an inconsistency in the marketing materials, and I've already posted the VW Self Study guides.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

bentley: pay and read it. 
vw.com (just go there)
my manual says 9.5 to 1... and most places i see say 9.5:1...


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> bentley: pay and read it.
> vw.com (just go there)
> my manual says 9.5 to 1... and most places i see say 9.5:1...


...and you can't even link any of them...

You're really frigging lazy if you can't link the information your say is so prevalent LOL.

BTW I find it amusing that you're so arrogant that you just gloss over your complete ignorance and dissemination of misinformation with no evidence on the electronics to keep arguing about compression which actually has conflicting information from the VAG itself. It's getting pretty damn funny just how pissed you're getting that I won't just take your word for things --and that I won't just roll over LOL.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

He probably didnt link it becasuse the links probably wont help.

Bentley Maunal

vw.com

owners manual


your both lazy :wave:


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> your both lazy :wave:


I'm being obstinate, though I'm sure that's obvious 

The red flag to me should have been when I went back and read those self study guides in their entirety again. They list the recommended fuel @ 98ron or 94oct with 91oct being a reduced performance fuel. That's not really possible in the US since our perforamnce fuels are usually 93oct or E85.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

By know, after reading so many self study guides you should be pretty knowledgeable about this engine... I hope you stick around for when we need help.

We need people with the answers.

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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

bobsuncle said:


> 4I'm buying a Ktag master, but that's not the expensive bit. The pricey bits are the tuning software and maps/drivers. I don't want an unlimited access to the system, so my costs are including the "credits" I need for the MED 17 protocol.


still working, but got a bunch of maps and important bits sorted.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

reflected said:


> still working, but got a bunch of maps and important bits sorted.


Is the ECU you're working with a Tricore?


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## reflected (Apr 6, 2007)

tc1766.


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## Zoolook_ (Mar 17, 2012)

http://www.vw.com/en/models/golf/tr...or.html#/tab=6931b072eb6b01fd5e7e0d2099714b49

Hit the 'technical data' tab.



> ENGINE
> Type 2.5L, inline five cylinder, 20 V, MPFI
> Bore 3.25 in
> Stroke 3.65 in
> ...


As for the horsepower comments. As I understand it, the Torque difference is quite small ([email protected] Vs [email protected]) but there is definitely a difference. The 2011 Golf is 200lbs heavier than the 2007 Golf (curb weight) so probably loses any advantage there.

Biggest difference is definitely the gear ratio which directly affects MPG.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

Zoolook_ said:


> Biggest difference is definitely the gear ratio which directly affects MPG.


The gearing in the 2013 is pretty awful. 3000RPM drop from 2-3 and again from 4-5. On 225/45r17s I'm @ 3100RPM @70MPH in 3rd. Just too tall.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

The 2013 gearing is long... Very very long.

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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

VW publishes incorrect compression ratios more often then they publish correct ones. They listed like 4 different c/r's for 1.8t engines... With the exception of the 225+ hp ones, they were all the exact same piston. 

The published specifications are literally only for and by the marketing guys.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> VW publishes incorrect compression ratios more often then they publish correct ones. They listed like 4 different c/r's for 1.8t engines... With the exception of the 225+ hp ones, they were all the exact same piston.
> 
> The published specifications are literally only for and by the marketing guys.


Thank you. I've apparently gotten a lot of misleading information of late.


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> VW publishes incorrect compression ratios more often then they publish correct ones. They listed like 4 different c/r's for 1.8t engines... With the exception of the 225+ hp ones, they were all the exact same piston.
> 
> The published specifications are literally only for and by the marketing guys.


So Pete from Integrated what is the true compression ratio? 9.5:1 for all 2.5L?

I know if you say what it is nobody will question


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