# "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

I briefly mentioned last week that I was presented with an 'Insufficient Coolant' warning message after starting my Phaeton up, following an overnight cold-soaking down to around -25°C. I was really perplexed by this message, because the car was parked on top of a layer of pure white snow, and there was no evidence that any coolant had leaked out of the car.
About all I can think of as a possible cause is 'shrinkage' at the very cold temperature I encountered. By this I mean perhaps the coolant shrunk as it became very cold, and this emptied out the little reservoir, and the coolant was then trapped in the engine by a non-return valve. This is, however, speculation on my part - engines and stuff like that are not my strong suit.
I opened the cap on the coolant reservoir and looked inside - sure enough, the coolant level was very low. I started the car and allowed it to idle until it reached operating temperature. By that time, the coolant had expanded again, and the warning message had disappeared.
I dropped by my VW dealer once I got home, and they gave me some coolant to put inside the reservoir. The Phaetons (both engines) require the newest 'G12 Plus' (color purple) specification coolant, which is designed to last the life of the engine, although the service manual does allow for topping up with G12 or G11 coolant if G12 Plus is not available.
Below are some photos showing what I found.
Michael
*The warning message* (note the OAT)








*What the reservoir looked like when I took the cap off*
(Note that the 'MIN' tab is way above the coolant level)








*What we added*
I'm not really sure if this is G12 Plus or plain G12.








*What it looks like when properly filled up*


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael, I had the same situation occur about 1 month ago. I was really alarmed at the time as I remembered another member's experiences with low coolant levels due to a punctured aux radiator ( i think, though the details may be wrong, i'm sure i'll shortly be corrected







). in any event I was a little worried, as it too happened 'out of the blue'- I had not noticed any leakage anywhere, nor anything amiss w/the gauges. However the problem turned out to be an auxillary coolant tank leak which was replaced. The Phaeton has 2 reservoirs, the second which is not apparent from the engine bay and my primary tank appeared exactly as in your photo above with regards to the low level when first viewed. How and why the second tank was leaking I still have no idea, but of course its good as new now having been replaced. A little unsettling when it happened as normally you check the coolant level, look for leaks and its an easy fix, but given the potential for engine damage or at least ignorance on my part I didn't want to take any chances.
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
Thanks a lot for sharing that information. I'm taking my Phaeton in for the 32,000 km service (20K mile service) this Friday, and I'll mention that to the tech. Although my dealership has great techs, they don't see a lot of the W12 Phaetons, and for that reason, I am sure they will appreciate the tip from you.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re:*

Well - the techs at my VW dealer found out where the coolant is disappearing to - it seems there is a tiny leak somewhere in the supplemental radiator that is fitted to the lower right corner of the W12 Phaetons.
The bright colour of the coolant makes it pretty easy to spot the source of the leak. You can see the pink colour on one of the vertical columns, and also on the large bolts at the bottom of the heat exchanger.
The leak is pretty small, so there should not be much of a problem associated with driving the car until the replacement part comes in. I think it will be a rather labour-intensive task to replace this heat exchanger - my guess is that the front bumper will have to be removed to get access to it.
Michael


_*Postscript:*_ Here's the description of the replacement of the supplemental radiator in my car - W12 Auxiliary (Supplemental) Radiator Replacement

*Coolant Leak in Supplemental Heat Exchanger*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re:*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_...the problem turned out to be an auxiliary coolant tank leak which was replaced. The Phaeton has 2 reservoirs, the second which is not apparent from the engine bay and my primary tank appeared exactly as in your photo above with regards to the low level when first viewed. How and why the second tank was leaking I still have no idea, but of course its good as new now having been replaced... 

Hi Ed:
Thanks again for that suggestion. The techs looked at the supplemental tank, but it appeared to be in excellent condition, and there was no evidence of leaking anywhere near it. I think everyone was hoping that would be the cause of the problem, because it is pretty easy to get access to that supplemental tank.
Michael
*Supplemental Coolant Expansion Tank*


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael, thanks for the great photos, a shame it isn't as easy a fix! 
It'll be great to meet you next weekend.
Ed


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (viscount)*

The little 'baby radiator' arrived at my dealer this morning (wow, that was fast - they ordered it at 4 in the afternoon Friday, and it was there at 9 in the morning Monday!).
I don't know if I will be able to find the time to take the car to the dealership and get it installed before leaving for the GTG. I sort of suspect it will be an all day job to put the thing in.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I sort of suspect it will be an all day job to put the thing in.

Yes.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (chrisj428)*

Oh... well, in that case, it's going to have to wait till I get back from the GTG. I'll buy a container of G12 to bring along with me...







The leak rate is very small, about 1 deci every 1,000 km.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*

This morning right after cranking up in Louisville KY, my "insufficient coolant" light came on. I topped it off as it was indeed low and it appears I may have my first problem with 'ol Phaye. We may have a common problem guys. We'll see as I too have only 600 miles before my 20K check up.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (dcowan699)*

Michael, I noticed that the coolant is colored red in the above pictures. Mine is not that color. Is that the way yours was from the time you bought the car??


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (dcowan699)*

Hi David:
Your car is newer than mine - my guess is that you have the newest VW coolant, which is called 'G12 Plus' and is purple. I have the older 'G12' which is red. The two are compatible with each other, but if the initial filling was done with G12 Plus, then it is best to only refill with G12 Plus because of its superior characteristics. G12 Plus is a lifetime coolant than never needs to be changed.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*

It wasn't very low as I think I only placed maybe a half of a liter of antifreeze in the reservoir. I'll be honest with you, I just bought the brand that the gas station had because I had no choice. I only have less than 500 miles till my next service and I will make sure they are aware of this issue.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (dcowan699)*

David,
You may want to have them flush that out while you're there for the service.
If anyone needs to top off their coolant in between services (assuming it's not gushing out of some orifice), please top off with potable water.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note: *Related post discussing loss of engine coolant - 
Phaeton in ICU (Complete Engine Replacement)
...and, here's a post that discusses how to replace the auxiliary radiator on a W12 Phaeton:
W12 Auxiliary (Supplemental) Radiator



_Modified by PanEuropean at 11:44 PM 5-4-2007_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (chrisj428)*

After leaving my car in the garage for over a week while in Germany, I cranked up the car first thing Monday morning and the "insufficient coolant" warning came on again. I backed the car out and sure enough, Brent and I both saw red antifreeze fluid on the garage floor. It was in the same place as Michael described (front right area). The coolant level is low. It sounds like I have the same problem you had Michael. They have my car in the shop as of now and they gave me a loaner Passat. 
Hopefully they can get this handled without any big troubles.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (dcowan699)*

Hi David:
The replacement of the little auxiliary radiator is quite a simple task. To get at it, you need to remove three large parts:
*1)* The front bumper cover (easy to do, but pay lots of attention to how the electrical connectors are attached to the bumper cover in the front LEFT area during disassembly).
*2)* The right wheelwell liner (a very easy task).
*3)* The two underbody covers (also a very easy task).
Once those three parts have been removed, the tech will have full access to the front and back side of the little supplemental radiator that is in the front right corner of the W12 engine. The replacement of the radiator itself is really easy to do.
You will probably find the leak by looking on the aft side of the radiator, about in the middle. Look for the red stain from the coolant running down the back side of the radiator - it is not difficult to miss.
Michael


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Are these leaks all occurring at the same spot on the W12's? If so I would assume there is a problem with a seam on the unit and maybe a TB or, dare I say RECALL, should be in order. It would be a shame to be driving a thousand miles away from VW service and lose the use of the radiator.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

I think it will just be a case by case problem. Again, I'd like to know if some of the problems seen on Phaetons occur on Bentley F/Spurs???
It's amazing we don't hear of cross-over common issues between the two cars.








Or maybe the Bentley owners just don't voice their issues as much ....who knows.
The problem with this defect is that you have to allow the car to sit for a week to identify it. Another words, you won't see a leak under normal conditions because the fluid leak is so small that it evaporates before leaving a spot or trail. If it weren't for the onboard diagnostics, I'd never known a problem existed. I'm just glad it's under warranty and otherwise I still feel the car is doing fine. 
My dealership picks up my car from 20 miles away, leaves me a Passat (which is just fine with me as it doesn't have to be a Phaeton) and I trust they will handle it with TLC. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_I think it will just be a case by case problem. Again, I'd like to know if some of the problems seen on Phaetons occur on Bentley F/Spurs???
It's amazing we don't hear of cross-over common issues between the two cars.








Or maybe the Bentley owners just don't voice their issues as much ....who knows. 

IMHO, the typical FlyingSpur owner isn't likely to get involved in internet forums such as these. When their FS breaks, they make a call and someone deals with their problem. 
Larry Ellison (Oracle Billionaire) drives a FlyingSpur. I doubt we will ever see him post about his FlyingSpur Gremlins.


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Hey, I know that Ellison guy! Went to high school at South Shore in Chicago and spends most of his free time sailing now. His biggest hang-up was thought to be that Bill Gates had more than him! Larry really made somehting of himself though.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Spectral)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spectral* »_Larry Ellison (Oracle Billionaire) drives a FlyingSpur. I doubt we will ever see him post about his FlyingSpur Gremlins. 

I bet he lurks. He probably hasn't figured out how to post yet, because the forum doesn't run on Oracle.








Michael


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

bentley owners do have the same problem. however, as most of them are previous owners of crewe built cars they are used to seeing liquid under where their cars have been parked.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (Spectral)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spectral* »_
IMHO, the typical FlyingSpur owner isn't likely to get involved in internet forums such as these. When their FS breaks, they make a call and someone deals with their problem. 
Larry Ellison (Oracle Billionaire) drives a FlyingSpur. I doubt we will ever see him post about his FlyingSpur Gremlins. 


You're probably right. They probably lose $1000 a minute if they stop doing their day job and spend the time needed to make a post on a forum!!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_...I would assume there is a problem with a seam on the unit and maybe a TB or, dare I say RECALL, should be in order.

No, no, nothing that serious at all. In my case, a very minor leak developed in the auxiliary radiator - total coolant loss over about 1,000 miles of driving amounted to 6 or 8 ounces.
No-one yet knows why the leak develops. It's too early to know for sure, and pointless to speculate. VW has all the problem (removed) radiators sent back to Auburn Hills for analysis. If anything interesting is discovered, they will probably put out a TB passing the information on to the technicians. No TB is needed to describe the repair scheme, because it is a straightforward and simple removal and replacement of the component.
The sky is *NOT *falling.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael, Upon pressure testing my coolant system, my techs aren't sensing a leak. Do you recall if your radiators passed or failed a pressure test prior to discovering the leak?


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*"Secondary radiator" replaced*

Took car to dealer b/c of :
1. The intermittent Check Exhaust System warning light that got fixed a couple of months ago by replacing a thermostat, but came back on after a week or two of use, and stayed on most of the time, except (of course) Monday morning when I got the car into the shop
2. The windshield washer liquid light that came on a while ago, and that did not go away even though I refilled the tank
I neglected to mention to the dealer that the coolant level red warning (in letters) once showed up, briefly, in the MFD in the main cluster, and then went away. This happened perhaps 3 or 4 wks ago, with no relapses
Well... while looking for a leak on the windshield washer reservoir... they found a leak on a "secondary radiator"
Radiator got replaced: 3D0-121-212-B
Added coolant: G-012-A8F-A4 (*is it Plus?* Is it regular?)
As usual with this particular dealership, service to me was excellent, but they keep treating me as some sort of Crewe owner (see posts above







) and simply do not provide any details to me. They fix it, and they actually ask me not to worry about it.
Which I am sort of getting used to, up until June 2010, when checks start coming out of my pocket, and then it will become unenjoyable to be kept in the dark!

PD: Going to Charleston SC tomorrow, honk if you see a black Phaeton with two onboard!


_Modified by Itzmann at 10:11 PM 5-25-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

Hi David:
We didn't even do a pressure test, because it was self-evident that if the coolant level in the tank (the round reservoir) kept going down, there had to be a leak somewhere.
The leak itself was very, very tiny - I rather doubt if a pressure test would have revealed anything.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

A visual inspection of the radiator would show coolant seepage as a pink crust surrounding the area of escape. This should be apparent even if the leak is occurring at a slow rate.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

Based on a call I got yesterday, they plan to exchange the radiator in question.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

I have confirmation the dealership installed the new radiator. I'm on a mini-vacation though and not in town to pick it up but they are having to place a newly painted bumper on it so it wasn't ready for pickup yet. I sure hope their are no extra problems as a result of having it repaired. If it's just fault codes , I can eliminate those but if their are additional mechanical problems (rattles) , I won't be happy. I also hope they don't leave a parking sensor loose or something like that.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

Got my car back today and all seems fine. This is the first time I've driven it in a month and boy it feels good to be back in the saddle of it again. I've taken for granted what a great ride this car is and how beautiful it is. It's almost like the feeling of getting it picked up the day of delivery the first time. They detailed the car and it looks wonderful.
Hopefully no other problems occur. Unfortunately , I get the feeling 80% of the W12s will have this problem some time or the other. 


_Modified by dcowan699 at 2:11 PM 6-12-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_...This is the first time I've driven it in a month...

I know that feeling - the last time I drove my Phaeton was in March!
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I know that feeling - the last time I drove my Phaeton was in March!
Michael

And I don't think your wife drives it much either, does she?


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

Already, just 2 hours after picking up my car, I've been approached twice about my car. I gave this one gentlemen the vortex address, told him my username and told him to inquire on a used Phaeton (hey, Fred, I told him you were our used-car bird dog). I hope he gets on the forum and chats with us. He seemed really intrigued with the Phaeton.
Again, it blows my mind that VWofA pulled this car off the market.


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Well - the techs at my VW dealer found out where the coolant is disappearing to - it seems there is a tiny leak somewhere in the supplemental radiator that is fitted to the lower right corner of the W12 Phaetons.


When I started my Phaeton this morning (for the first time in about a week), I also got the "insufficient coolant" message







So I drove to my dealer, about 5 miles away. The coolant gague was just up to 200F when I got there. I did shut down the engine and restart once, which made the message go away, but I brought it in anyway, thinking that I probably needed to top off the antifreeze.
They told me that I had a leak in my auxillary radiator, same as Michael experienced. They had the part in stock (the is the Autobarn in Evanston, which sees a lot of Phaetons), and already have it fixed. I guess this is a common problem with W12s.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message (bobschneider)*

Photos re-hosted.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

*Word of advise when replenishing coolant fluid.*

Hi all,
Just a few words of advise regarding a simple maintenance job.
Last week I noticed that the coolant level on the expansion tank was below the min mark. I went to a local VW dealer and purchased a 1.5l bottle of OEM G12 Plus Plus fluid.
The following morning, when the engine was cold I replenished the expansion tank with no issues whatsoever. This morning I decided to have a look to check if the coolant level was ok. To my surprise the cooland looked brown-orangish in colour  and I recalled reading somewhere that if G12 ++ was mixed with coolant other than G12 it would turn brown and it would need to be replaced :banghead:. 
After some cursing and swearing I calmed down and decided to pump out some coolant from the expansion tank and pour it on a glass to see how it looked like. Fortunately it turned out to be lilac, the way it was supposed to be.
The point was that the car was inside the garage because it was pouring with rain outside and I did not have any source of direct natural light. Therefore I could not see the true colour of the coolant inside the expansion tank.
So I would advise anyone who is going to replenish the coolant circuit to do it outdoors or alternatively to have a proper light or torch to do the job.
Cheers.

Gabriel


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Does this stuff almost flouresce like the antifreeze of old? That had a too-bright dayglo colour that was a bit alarming!

Chris


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

I got the "Insufficient coolant" alarm last night when I went speeding over 140Km. I recalled that I noticed on different occasions some liquid of some sort dripping from the the front right side (V8 ROW) that's usually leaves a small size stain on the driveway, can't figure out the color but it seemed water like. 

So, went ahead and opened the coolant cap and sure enough the coolant level was below the MIN mark. Coolant was reddish in color. It was filled after the timing belt + water pump change that I did few weeks ago.

Will have it checked out soon.

Regards,

Salah


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Hopefully it's just a hose.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7060387-Coolant-leak-v8-at-oil-cooler


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Let's hope so. Many thanks for the link, very helpful.

Regards,

Salah


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, since I read that I've been hoping it's not one of those inevitable things that's bound to fail eventually. Gruvenparts make a much better replacement, but it doesn't help with the difficulty of fitting a new one.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Quick question - dos the V8 have a coolant level sensor, and if so where is it?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

What? No workshop manual Bruce? Your fellow engineers would be ashamed of you.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Trust me I have looked for a SSG or wiring diagram that shows it. 
It certainly is not on the bottle. - (edit - there are 2 moulded in probes as part of the bottle, and a wire connector that can only be seen by removing the bottle - )
I see it on the W12s 

I still have my coolant temp creep up over 200 occasionally, - goes down with heater on full, then goes away for a couple weeks. Only has happened in cold weather. It is hard to check the coolant level until it cools down, I'd be pleased to know a level sensor is there. I tend to forget to check when cold because .... Well maybe age... Who knows....

All my BMW's since 1984 have a float in the bottle. Seems odd the V8 does not have one. 

I suppose spring will tell if this is a winter issue.


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