# RPM on 140 km/h



## palex (Nov 8, 2004)

My Golf 2002 (4 speed automatic with overdrive) runs at 120 kmh (75 mph) with 3500 RPM and at 140 kmh (87 mph) with 4000 RPM. I don't think it is normal and I think that overdrive is not working. 
Anyone having the same car, could you please tell me how your car is behaving on such speed in terms of RPM?


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*

I take it that this is the standard 2.0 litre 4-cylinder gasoline engine. (Different engines have different gearing in the transmission.)
If it's a 2.0, what you're saying is about right, it's normal.
It's easy to find out if overdrive is working. Get to 100 km/h and maintain that speed (should be about 2800 rpm). Then put the gear selector in "3". *That* is what it's like with overdrive not engaged.


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## Boxer2100 (May 25, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palex* »_My Golf 2002 (4 speed automatic with overdrive) runs at 120 kmh (75 mph) with 3500 RPM and at 140 kmh (87 mph) with 4000 RPM. I don't think it is normal and I think that overdrive is not working. 
Anyone having the same car, could you please tell me how your car is behaving on such speed in terms of RPM?

That sounds spot-on to me.
I assume we're talking about a 2.0.


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## palex (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (Boxer2100)*

Yes, this is gasoline 2.0 engine with 4 speed with overdrive automatic transmission and this shouldn't be right. Look, the gear ratio for 2.0 VW Golf is the same as for, for example, Toyota Camry 1999. My wife owns the Toyota and this is the comparison chart for these two cars:
Toyota: 100km/h - 2200rmp, 120km/h - 2700rmp
VW: 100km/h - 2900rpm, 120km/h - 3500rpm
Besides, I owned about 10 cars in my life prior to VW and they all behaved similar on overdrive in terms of RPM (I mean similar to Toyota's numbers). However, you all who replied to me I assume own VW Golf 2002 (or similar) and your posts are probably based on what you see when you drive your Golfs... M..mmm, I don't know what to think - specs say one thing but the reality is tolatty different... I'm even more confused. Anyway, I'm going to the service soon, see what they will tell me

_Modified by palex at 6:05 AM 11-10-2004_


_Modified by palex at 6:17 AM 11-10-2004_


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## Boxer2100 (May 25, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*

Gear ratios are one thing, but the 2.slow cars also have a very short final drive.
And just because two cars both have "overdrive" is not to say that they share common gear ratios.


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palex* »_Yes, this is gasoline 2.0 engine with 4 speed with overdrive automatic transmission and this shouldn't be right. Look, the gear ratio for 2.0 VW Golf is the same as for, for example, Toyota Camry 1999. My wife owns the Toyota and this is the comparison chart for these two cars:
Toyota: 100km/h - 2200rmp, 120km/h - 2700rmp
VW: 100km/h - 2900rpm, 120km/h - 3500rpm
Besides, I owned about 10 cars in my life prior to VW and they all behaved similar on overdrive in terms of RPM (I mean similar to Toyota's numbers). However, you all who replied to me I assume own VW Golf 2002 (or similar) and your posts are probably based on what you see when you drive your Golfs... M..mmm, I don't know what to think - specs say one thing but the reality is tolatty different... I'm even more confused. Anyway, I'm going to the service soon, see what they will tell me

What engine is in that Camry? V6? That will make a big difference.
Different engines have different gearing requirements. (An engine that doesn't have much torque has to be geared lower - spin faster - in an otherwise-similar vehicle.) Marketing demands for various driving characteristics have some effect, too. If final drive is very tall (like your Camry), it's good for economy, but there will be not much "forward thrust" for hill-climbing and accelerating in top gear without requiring a downshift, resulting in more gear changes (especially on hills or when the car is loaded down.) If final drive is short (as the Golf/Jetta 2.0 normally is), the car feels more responsive in top gear without downshifting, but the penalty is more fuel consumption and more noise. It is all a compromise decided by the manufacturer.
2-litre 4-cylinder engines in most normal cars are geared for somewhere between 2500 and 3000 rpm at 100 km/h. Your Golf is in that range.
If you want an engine that's geared taller for lower RPM ... you need one with more torque. TDI, 1.8T, and VR6 are all geared taller than a 2.0, because they all have more torque.
You should have bought a TDI ... 2150 rpm at 100 km/h.


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## palex (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (GoFaster)*

Just been at the service - they say everything is OK with the car and they couldn't explain why RPM are higher than on Toyota...
Indeed, this is the gear ratio on overdrive for Toyota and VW that I'm comparing:
Toyota - 0.70
VW - 0.68
I've got these number from http://research.cars.com and confirmed with the data on some other sites as well. 
Now, please explain me this - if on two cars engine turns ones and wheels turn 1/0.70 = 1.42 times (this is what gear ratio is) and the size of the wheels is much the same (+- 10mm), shouldn't RPM for these two cars be the same on the same speed? (Actually, since VW is 0.68, it has to have RPM even lower than Toyota







)


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## palex (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*

It is even more simple:
a) on VW when engine is 3000 RMP, wheels are 4411 RMP
b) on Toyota when engine is 3000 RMP, wheels are 4285 RMP
If the size of the wheels is the same, VW should go faster than Toyota. However, my VW goes 100km/h and Toyota goes 130km/h


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*

ANSWER THIS: is the Camry a V6??
As for your mathematics, that's only the overdrive ratio in the gearset, you are missing a whole bunch of other factors. Wheel diameter is one thing, but also the final drive ratio. Some transmissions also have a primary drive ratio. All these drive ratios have to be multiplied together and then multiplied by the RPM of the drive wheels when travelling at a given speed. And then there's torque converter slippage on top of that, which is difficult to predict in any simple way. Your Camry probably has a taller final drive ratio and possibly different wheel diameter.
Fer crissake, go down the highway in "D" and then pop the shifter into "3". This will very quickly tell you whether overdrive (in "D") is working or not!! (And I betcha it's just fine.)
Why is it that some people just can't understand that "it is what it is", and that not all vehicles are the same in all aspects? Your VW is geared shorter than your Toyota. SO WHAT?? "It is what it is". They have been engineered with a different set of compromises in mind. The Toyota is geared tall for mileage, the VW is geared short for better responsiveness and less downshifting on hills. THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. There's nothing "wrong" with your car. IT IS WHAT IT IS. Forget about it, stop complaining when nothing is wrong, and move on with more important things in life.
Yes, I get frustrated when people don't understand simple concepts.


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## palex (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (GoFaster)*

1. Toyota is 4 cylinder CE, not V6. I think it is 2.2L
2. Shifting on a highway from 4 to 3 will NOT tell if overdrive is working (by the way, it is working on my VW and I'm not complaining about it) simply because overdrive is something that comes after the 3-rd gear shift, i.e. 1st shift is from gear 1 to 2, second from 2 to 3, third from 3 to 4 and there is a 4th 'kind of shift' that kicks the overdrive. Just try to count shifts on your car - if you have a 4 speed with OD there will be 4 shifts, not 3. That is why if I try your suggestion shifting from D to 3 I will bypass OD along with 4th gear and not just OD. I just can't stand people not understanding simple things








3. Toyota is 2.2L and VW is 2.0L. Which car is more fuel economy? The answer is - Toyota. My VW consumes in summer 12L in the city and 9.5L on a highway (at 120km/h). This is confirmed by me and I'm very easy driver. That is why I'm complaining. Toyota is more economy because it keeps lower RPM
4. About other factors that you kindly mentioned - may be indeed there are some other rations apart from the gear box (differential ratio?) that I should take into account and which will explain the high RPM on VW. The thing is that I wanted someone to explain this to me but nobody on VW service seem to know these things and I could't find enything on the internet either. That is why I asked this question on this forum



_Modified by palex at 6:15 AM 11-12-2004_


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## Boxer2100 (May 25, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*

I think you have one thing wrong --
"overdrive" in the case of your car is simply referring to 4th gear. It IS NOT an extra gear. The term "overdrive"simply refers to a gear ratio that is taller than 1:1, which virtually all transmissions now have.
On older cars, 15 or more years ago, it may have been an extra reduction gear in addition to your top gear, but that is no longer the case.
So, you will only notice three upshifts, not four, and secondly, the RPMs you are seeing are in line with what I have heard from other Golf/Jetta owners as well as inn magazine reviews.
So, for the last time, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR CAR!!!!


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (palex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *palex* »_1. Toyota is 4 cylinder CE, not V6. I think it is 2.2L
2. Shifting on a highway from 4 to 3 will NOT tell if overdrive is working (by the way, it is working on my VW and I'm not complaining about it) simply because overdrive is something that comes after the 3-rd gear shift, i.e. 1st shift is from gear 1 to 2, second from 2 to 3, third from 3 to 4 and there is a 4th 'kind of shift' that kicks the overdrive. Just try to count shifts on your car - if you have a 4 speed with OD there will be 4 shifts, not 3. That is why if I try your suggestion shifting from D to 3 I will bypass OD along with 4th gear and not just OD. I just can't stand people not understanding simple things








3. Toyota is 2.2L and VW is 2.0L. Which car is more fuel economy? The answer is - Toyota. My VW consumes in summer 12L in the city and 9.5L on a highway (at 120km/h). This is confirmed by me and I'm very easy driver. That is why I'm complaining. Toyota is more economy because it keeps lower RPM
4. About other factors that you kindly mentioned - may be indeed there are some other rations apart from the gear box (differential ratio?) that I should take into account and which will explain the high RPM on VW. The thing is that I wanted someone to explain this to me but nobody on VW service seem to know these things and I could't find enything on the internet either. That is why I asked this question on this forum

1. OK.
2. Yes, it will. "Overdrive" is not an "extra gear beyond fourth". On your transmission, "overdrive" IS "fourth gear". They are one and the same. (This is standard practice throughout automotive industry nowadays. The days of having an entirely separate "overdrive" box on top of the normal transmission are long gone.) The extra little "shift" you feel on top of the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 shifts, is NOT an extra gear - it is simply the torque converter locking up. Bottom line ... selecting "3" will lock out "fourth gear" = "overdrive". You're the one not understanding








3. This entirely makes sense. With the Toyota, first of all it is possible for the manufacturer to gear it a little taller because it has a larger engine with more torque so it doesn't have to spin as fast. But on top of that, they geared it even taller than the displacement difference would account for, in the interest of extra economy. What you're saying here agrees with the way the vehicles are designed. But I betcha that once up to speed in top gear, the VW will accelerate harder and go up a steeper hill in top gear without downshifting. That's the tradeoff you make.
If you want an economical VW, buy a TDI, not a 2.0 ... and as an extra benefit, it's geared for about 2200 rpm at 100 km/h because the diesel engine has ample torque to pull gearing that tall.
4. I'm not at all surprised that the dealer technicians couldn't explain it properly, but that's a whole other story ...


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## palex (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: RPM on 140 km/h (GoFaster)*

".. The extra little "shift" you feel on top of the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 shifts, is NOT an extra gear - it is simply the torque converter locking up.." - this is what it is?! OK, I didn't know.
Anyway, I tried other VWs on the road - they all have similar to mine RPM. And yes, I should have bought this 1.8 gasoline engine (forgot its name but not the TDI, the other one - I hate diesel smell and noise







). If sales staff at dealerships knew a little more than an average canadian housewife knows and explained me at least some pros and cons of different models I would have gone for the right car for me from very beginning. Again, the lack of professionalism just kills me
Thanks to everyone on this forum who helped me with this topic










_Modified by palex at 6:15 AM 11-15-2004_


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