# Does the EPA/Diesel thing + huge fine make you rethinking buying a VW?



## aunsafe2015 (Sep 4, 2015)

Prior to the whole issue with the EPA and potential $18 billion fine for gaming emissions on diesels, I was probably about a month from buying a 1.8T Golf SEL. Now I'm having second thoughts. Not because it changes my opinion of VW. But because it makes me wonder if the potential gigantic fine is going to cause them financial difficulties, make them start cutting corners on building cars or doing maintenance work, etc.

Anybody have any concerns? Will it be business as usual at VW or is this going to affect quality?


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## Akakage (May 2, 2015)

The biggest fine to date for Clean Air Act violation was handed to Hyundai/Kia for 100 million. I doubt VW will pay much more for about half the number of offending cars.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...illion-over-unrealistic-fuel-economy-ratings/


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## DEZLBOY (Feb 16, 1999)

The EPA won't fine VW the maximum because the EPA does not want to put VW out of business in the USA.

Does this change my mind of making my next car a VW also? Yes, it does. VW cheated. VW knowingly lied about "clean" diesel while making "clean" diesel their main selling point in the USA. It's a question of trust. And doing the right thing (for both me and VW).


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## Akakage (May 2, 2015)

DEZLBOY said:


> The EPA won't fine VW the maximum because the EPA does not want to put VW out of business in the USA.
> 
> Does this change my mind of making my next car a VW also? Yes, it does. VW cheated. VW knowingly lied about "clean" diesel while making "clean" diesel their main selling point in the USA. It's a question of trust. And doing the right thing (for both me and VW).


I'd like to know of a major car maker whose management hasn't "knowingly lied"(itself a bit of an oxymoron)to its customers. GM? Ford? Toyota? Hyundai?


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## AndrewL1994 (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm not sure if my 2015 Golf TDI is on the EPA blitzkrieg list or not, many sites say it is, many sites say it isn't. ^^^^^^^^That video made my whole night! "TDI's are fun as hell to drive!" I agree with Hitler.


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

How big of a deal is this? What level of pollutant is released while driving. Certainly people that bought these cars bought them for power and fuel efficiency. These werent affected by the alleged tampering. If the fix causes a big loss in power or fuel efficiency, then we have a problem. 


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## quaudi (Jun 25, 2001)

Not at all. Prior to buying my 2013 JSW I thoroughly researched the TDI for close to two years, I really wanted one. I drew my own conclusions plus weighed the experience I had and still have with my 2.5 sedan and there was no way in hell I was going to buy a TDI. So as long as VW has old fashioned internal combustion on the menu I will continue to buy as long as there is something that appeals to me, which at this time there is not.


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

It won't affect me from buying another. The only other brand I've considered is BMW but VW is much more affordable and I prefer their gas engines but they produce some of the best diesel engines in the car market so it wouldn't affect my decision either way. Unless like previously stated theres a huge drop in performance and economy.


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## Mark O. (Aug 25, 2014)

If I had one of the affected Diesels, I would be very concerned. If these cars were close to meeting the EPA I think VW would have done so. The fact that they couldn't tells me the fix will really hurt performance. I'll be watching how this unfolds from the comfort of my TSI.


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## Lee_K (Apr 22, 2012)

We need to see VW's official response, and then there will be months and months of back and forth between VW and the EPA before any monetary fines are enacted. VW is the biggest and most profitable car company on the planet and this will easily accommodated financially for them. The bigger question for me is the loyal TDI fan in the U.S. -- will they feel betrayed? Will the mandated recall cause their cars to drop in fuel mileage by 20 to 30%? That would certainly make a number of them angry and they might never consider the brand again. Europe is now rethinking diesel in general and this may be the tipping point for all German manugpfacturers to consider a deeper push into electric cars.


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## Akakage (May 2, 2015)

Lee_K said:


> We need to see VW's official response, and then there will be months and months of back and forth between VW and the EPA before any monetary fines are enacted. VW is the biggest and most profitable car company on the planet and this will easily accommodated financially for them. The bigger question for me is the loyal TDI fan in the U.S. -- will they feel betrayed? Will the mandated recall cause their cars to drop in fuel mileage by 20 to 30%? That would certainly make a number of them angry and they might never consider the brand again. Europe is now rethinking diesel in general and this may be the tipping point for all German manugpfacturers to consider a deeper push into electric cars.


The stock market has already spoken.


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## Rockerchick (May 10, 2005)

VW has made a statement. And halted 2015 sales. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-clean-air-act-emissions-violations/72519678/


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## krautwhlz (May 10, 2010)

#1 All the manufacturers send “ringers” to the EPA for testing. It's far worse at the state testing levels.

#2 The EPA has screwed VW since the 1970s re. advertised (but accurate) fuel mpg claims for diesels.

#3 The EPA protects the US auto/truck industry; they are responsive to the NY-DC beltway... first!

#4 VW should have known they'd get caught... even if no one else was grabbed. Dumb move, VW!

#5 Interesting if some agency whistleblower(s) now bust the EPA's balls over its own inner workings.

J.R.
SoCal


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## durhamgti (Nov 15, 2011)

*we fix it?*

I think a bigger problem for VW is getting the people to bring in their cars to get 'fixed'. The way it is now they get more horsepower and better performance in the hidden illegal mode, why bring your car in for an upgrade that will deteriorate performance and cause components to maybe wear out faster and get lower mpg, VW will have to wave a big carrot in front of their customers to get them to comply. Also what about decreased value of all these units now on the road, who will compensate owners for that?


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## Mercruizer (Jul 1, 2014)

There is a bigger problem here. The emission rules changed for 2008. VW may have to re-purchase earlier vehicles without UREA injection. VW claimed these vehicles met the standard without the UREA system. That may not be the case. I doubt UREA injection could be retro-fitted and VW will not be allowed to have these 
violating autos out there.


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## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

No. Well probably solidified my decision to buy and e-golf vs TDI but that's about it. 

To me this is nowhere near the moral issue such as GM faulty ignitions etc.


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## goacom (Mar 3, 1999)

Hopefully, they will increase the options available for the TSIs. With the dramatic improvements in TSI torque and FE, diesels are a bit over rated anyway. Give me a 6 speed with a TSI with the SEL option and I will still consider a VW. I was planning to get a TDI SEL wagen with 6 speed, but I would happily take a TSI instead - if it were available.


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## Gumja (Sep 21, 2015)

charlesm0153 said:


> How big of a deal is this? What level of pollutant is released while driving. Certainly people that bought these cars bought them for power and fuel efficiency. These werent affected by the alleged tampering. If the fix causes a big loss in power or fuel efficiency, then we have a problem.


From what I've read, it sounds like the _actual _emissions and advertised power are irreconcilable.


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## Blue Golfer (Feb 4, 2003)

This could deal a heavy blow to VW sales overall. VW is about to introduce a mid-size SUV to the U.S. market, and this has to happen? Not too many potential new VW customers are going to trust VW, and I wouldn't be surprised if my 2012 Golf is the last I ever own. Not because I'll never want to buy another but because I may not get the chance to do that ever again unless I move to Germany. I guess it all depends on how Herr Winterkorn handles this.


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

Some more 'play by play' accounts.. http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel-recall-passenger-cars


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## denminnvw (Sep 21, 2015)

*Goodbye TDI?*

I will think twice before purchasing another TDI. I like VWs and my current Sportswagen has been a dream, but lying is something that's hard to get over. 

I will say though that the GM problem was a bigger issue since that actually killed people. Not that lying about emissions is not a big thing, but just putting it in perspective.


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## o2x (May 13, 2003)

The only fine that should be applied in this case is forcing VW to buy back all of the affected vehicles.. 

I have a 2010 Golf TDI, I sure as hell won't want it any more and I doubt anyone else will either if any sort of fix is going to result in reduced power and fuel mileage.. that was the whole reason why I bought the car in the first place.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

Akakage said:


> The biggest fine to date for Clean Air Act violation was handed to Hyundai/Kia for 100 million. I doubt VW will pay much more for about half the number of offending cars.
> 
> http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...illion-over-unrealistic-fuel-economy-ratings/


this is interesting. I sell kias and was telling a customer about kias fines today before i heard the news about vw. I believe Kia got in hot water due to not using the same size tires when they did their epa emissions testing to get figures for their monroney labels. Since the hefty fine they have been very conservative about the gas mileage they put on the monroney label and people are getting as much as much as 7 miles to gal more than the label states. Since then though kia is doing extremely well in the US. Basically they stepped up their game and people are responding well to them. i hope VW will bounce back from this but maybe it will be harder for them since they are more established and people payed less attention to kia. VW was projected to take over the US market by 2018 and this could be a huge debacle for them to overtake toyota. I'm not gonna lie i think the ECU programming that is believed to manipulate the emissions test by turning on and off the emissions controls is soooo VW and i find it amusing... those engineers are something else lol. I feel terrible for VW salespeople, they will lose tons of business because of this and the auto industry will make sure to harp on VW. I'll still gladly drive my VW though.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

Should i buy VWs stock since it took a dive or should i buy stock in another promising diesel vehicle from another make? hmmm...


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

GabelessToGabeTown said:


> Should i buy VWs stock since it took a dive or should i buy stock in another promising diesel vehicle from another make? hmmm...


Maybe BMW if VW sales go down and a lot of us will want to stick with German cars. It's too early for me though things could go either way.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

smgs92 said:


> Maybe BMW if VW sales go down and a lot of us will want to stick with German cars. It's too early for me though things could go either way.


I am not an investor by any means lol, but it is gonna be very interesting to watch this sh** tornado roll into town. I know someone is gonna make tons off $$ of this though. I'm still hopeful for VW.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

Mark O. said:


> If I had one of the affected Diesels, I would be very concerned. If these cars were close to meeting the EPA I think VW would have done so. The fact that they couldn't tells me the fix will really hurt performance. I'll be watching how this unfolds from the comfort of my TSI.


"Originally Posted by XGC75 View Post
I can chime in here with a bit of insider knowledge. Not from Automotive, mind you. Please read it through - it's worth it if you care about this topic.

Government and legal agencies throught the world hire legal teams to construct regulations around safety, efficiency and emissions (electrical, chemical, you name it). Government agencies include the Department of Energy, Environmental Protection Agency, CAFE, FCC, IEC, etc. Legal agencies include Underwriters Labs and others. These agencies create legal notes that specify product requirements. Manufacturers of end-consumer goods must meet these specifications. As they are written by lawyers, they're legal documents. This is important when you consider they govern engineering organizations.

Herein lies the problem. The specifications suck. They're really bad. Not only are they born with holes, but they lie dormant as the world around them evolves. For instance, the EPA cycle only goes to 60mph, becuase that was the national speed limit at the time the specification was drafted. The spec was passed after the speed limit was changed but no one bothered to change it. Why? Problem #2: nobody in the government wants to spend the money to update the spec, becuase they would be seen meddling in regulations which tips off both lobbyists and die-hard republicans who believe that regulation is bad. Even though, for both those groups, an update in the regulations would ease the burden on businesses enormously. I, for instance, spend at least 4 hours of my week on average dealing with problems that aren't safety or consumer relevant. They're problems just circulating around how to pass a test with no real connection to how my product functions.

In VW's case, the EPA calls out the use of a "defeat device" (that buzzword you hear so much about) who's purpose is to disable the emissions equipment in the car. The kicker here is that the "defeat device" and the ECU aren't listed as the same part in the specification, so VW may not even be breaking any regulation. It's going to be very hard for the EPA to levee that $18b fine if their specifications are not sufficient to define whether VW even cheated.

From their point of view, VW needs to make the trade-offs between emissions requirements, efficiency requirements and performance/drivability requirements. Somewhere down the line, VW took a hard look at the EPA's spec and realized that there was a lack of definition around the defeat device. They realized they could detect the EPA cycle, get that reuqirement taken care of, then go meet the performance and efficiency requirements without having to make the usual efficiency trade-offs. Surely this was a BIG win for VW's product development organization, and the sales prove their leadership in that trade-off.

I'm not trying to say VW is innocent, but VW probably thought they were in compliance with that specification when they released the product and submitted it to the EPA. So why all the uproar at the EPA? The EPA thinks their definition of "Defeat device" is defensible in court against VW's interpretation. That is all."


This is just some food for thought. Also the restrictiveness of running the TDI engine in compliance with emissions standards potentially reduced the life on the engine according to VW. I see potential reasons that VW did this. The first first is VW thought they could get by on a technicality if ever discovered. They figured that they could allow the TDI to run full bore without being restricted and maximizing the life and efficiency of the engine. As well as maybe the standards were to restrictive to produce the power and reliability needs of the consumer without hindering the emissions controls in a diesel engine. I dont think this is design flaw necessarily, lack of ability for VW to produce great vehicles, or the ability to engineer. maybe they couldnt produce what the consumer wanted in those regulation or they wanted try and give their product the extra edge while trying to hide their ecu coding. You know the best of both worlds. The TDI was selling well, performing well, but lacked suitable emission results. This doesn't mean VW makes junk cars, but it does mean they lied about them.


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## MaybeVWMaybeNOT (Sep 21, 2015)

*Very Disappointed*

I've spent a lot of time researching and thinking about what vehicle to buy. I've test-driven the TDi Sportwagen twice, and a couple of other cars once, and after looking in earnest and waiting 4+ months for the economic and life situations to sort out enough to pull the trigger, I'd applied for an auto loan with the intention to buy this vehicle. I was within a week of intended purchase. Well now, I am approved for the loan, am ready to buy the TDi Sportwagen, and now this news. The car loan eligibility window only stays open for so long before it becomes invalid, and I'd have to reapply. And I would do so at expense of credit rating which would get dinged if I applied twice for a loan.

The bottom line is I've waited a long time to be able to buy this car, and had to hold off necessarily through the dog days of summer, and now the loan clock is ticking, and now I really cannot buy this car because (putting it nicely), VW has royally screwed this up. I really hope VW corporate can issue a fix, address the problem, and find a way to get these TDi models ASAP back on lots for purchase before my loan window expires. Otherwise, I'm simply going to have to buy some different new car. It's a shame that I know what I want, and I finally have all the ducks in line after so long, to actually buy it.

I'm very concerned that any fixes VW would or could offer would be a retread of 1970s emissions control malaise in order to bring their TDis into emissions compliance: possibly significantly reduced performance and technical numbers (hp ratings, torque ratings, mileage ratings, NVH ratings, etc...) as well as drivability and durability issues. I am very concerned about possible recalls, TSBs, and other fixes that TDi owners or potential owners may be subjected to. I'm sure that somehow, VW will get this sorted out but when, and what if any changes to the vehicles performance, numbers, drivability, etc... and will it come soon enough in my situation.

Also shopping:
I like Jeep Wrangler for the manual and the room, but not very sophisticated.
I like Toyota Highlander for room and sophistication, but no manual and sterile driving dynamic
I like Honda Accord Coupe V6 for manual and sophistication, but not much room.
I like BMW 3 Series Diesel Wagon for diesel, room and sophistication, but too expensive, and no manual.

With the VW TDi Sportwagen, I could have diesel torque, manual trans, refined driving, roomy utility, and affordability.
(Not going to buy the gas turbo TSi Sportwagen, esp. with a five speed manual instead of the six on the diesel)

VW, please, please, please fix this TDi situation ASAP so I can buy the right vehicle for me before my loan eligibility window expires.

Thanks.


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## GTIsmk1&6 (Oct 7, 2013)

If they are willing to take this huge risk by lieing about their diesels - knowing of the monumental downside should they be caught - just think how little they care about the average consumer who might have an issue with one of their products. This mentality is what has me re-thinking my VW loyalty.


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## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

im going to wait it out and hear both sides of the story. media sensationalism is at an all time high in america, and things can easily get blown out of proportion. thats not to discount volkswagens admittance of guilt in any way, but i do feel like they deserve a fair shake prior to any rash decisions.

that being said, it is disappointing. i sincerely hope that there is some type of easy, non damaging fix to the solution, for my own personal pride in the brand, but also for those affected by this.


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

VW never put the consumer in harms way. Is what they did a really bad thing or a stroke of evil genius? This all kind of reminds me of the antics around F1. So many little tricks to gain a small advantage. Big risk for little gain....worth it? I am not endorsing what VW did but lets hear the whole story before we pass judgment. I would hate to lose VW in america. The only affordable German car. 


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## Lagunaveedub (Jul 11, 2012)

Lee_K said:


> The bigger question for me is the loyal TDI fan in the U.S. -- will they feel betrayed?


Count me as one of the (until now) very very enthusiastic TDI fans. One of my favorite things was to see that incredible mileage when I cruise down the freeway.

I have yet to test the car after a recent "software upgrade" (had the car in for a new battery about 2 weeks ago). There is a particular stretch of freeway where I know what mileage I used to get, so i'll want to run that stretch and see what my mileage is now.

If I find that I get worse mileage I'll be pretty pissed off. I wonder what this will do to the resale value of my car


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## randomkoreanguy (Jul 20, 2002)

The media has gone completely nuts about this. I'm hearing about this on podcasts that I listen to that have literally nothing to do with cars. VW has not done anything diabolical or risked their lives of their customers the way some other automakers (allegedly) have. This is an emissions issue, nothing more. The car isn't going to steer you into a tree or suddenly stop in the middle of the highway because of this and I'm sure VW will offer a fix of some sort, albeit perhaps at the expense of either power or the long term life of the car or some other trade-off they weren't initially willing to make. In the big scheme of things, an emissions cheat seems minor. I'm not saying VW is blameless or should be let off the hook, but I think it's important to not get caught up in all the sensationalism and media frenzy and look at this rationally. Ultimately, the safety of the consumer was not compromised. Not only that, the new TDI's have urea injection, so I'd imagine it's a non-issue with the MKVII's (once they prove they're compliant on the open road outside of EPA testing conditions and are re-certified for sale). If this was on the level of the GM ignition fiasco, maybe I'd reconsider my loyalties, but I honestly don't consider this as big a deal as they're making it out to be. How many people who are outraged even know what NOx is? What levels are dangerous? How much the increased emissions of these 500k (or so) cars will actually affect air quality overall? The point being that it's a lot harder to quantify than some of the other more serious safety related recalls. Sure, certain emissions are bad. Air pollution is bad. But the levels they're talking about are really low to begin with. They're throwing around these nebulous, inexact numbers like 10 - 50 times higher, which sound scary, but I bet not many people have paused to think about what the actual numbers are and what kind of real world effects we're talking about. If it was that serious, people would be focused on the health hazards and not the fact that VW "lied/cheated". This story is being turned into an emotional one, focused on how VW is supposedly cheating and lying. Blatant emotional manipulation in order to create a headline grabbing story about something that's essentially a boring emissions/EPA issue. If this is enough to make people jump ship, then whatever, this isn't a dictatorship, but I personally don't see the big deal.

I don't feel like my personal honor has been stained, I'm not personally offended. From a purely logical standpoint, I don't see how this dramatically affects my future purchasing decisions. The cars all currently still run fine and probably will after the emissions fix too.

Now, is it a PR nightmare? Yes. A huge setback for VW's reputation that they've slowly rebuilt in this country? Certainly. But Toyota recovered from their gigantic recall (which was, by the way, significantly worse than this and actually involved allegations of customer deaths), I don't see why VW won't recover from this. I have to stress again, this an emissions issue involving the EPA. Think about that. No one is dying, no one's safety is at risk, the cars aren't dangerous in any way, shape, or form. They just emit a bit too much NOx. And somehow the media has turned this into the story of the century and we've all been betrayed by the big evil German corporation, oh noes. Give me a break.


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## stradovinski (Mar 24, 2010)

I might give this some thought, but I don't think it would ultimately affect my decision. Like others have said, there have been far worse issues with other car makers.

It does remind me of when I read about Mazda delaying their diesel cars. I guess they aren't as clever as the Germans.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Yes, other manufacturers have recovered from much worse nightmares.

On the flip side, what VW executives let pass here is beyond imagination and beyond what is usually thought possible in the world of money.

In other words, the people responsible for this were not only cruel and lacking consciousness, but clearly had a very short time table available for their sins. They are noW in the Bahamas with matching off-shore accounts - driven by whoever paid them (most likely, a competitor).


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## deathjam4 (Mar 17, 2015)

*VW has a thumbs down*

I almost got a diesel a few months ago. I already know how well they handle things at the vw dealer in the repairs department. They never want to replace parts under warranty until you annoy them enough that they just do it. I have a 2012 jetta with the 2.5L gas engine and the amount of issues i had with this modal and the recent news about the diesels has rather turned me off of VW. I owned and drove a 2.8L audi a4 1998 modal for 4 years with little issue and did most the repairs myself. The only car i would consider from vw is the audi in future.As for the next car i plan to buy it will be a Chevy cruise diesel edition. Makes sense since i get my dads discounts for working at gm for 30 Years and year end sales i can get it for a song brand new.

VW Canada has never impressed me and the thing that upsets me most is they sold me a car with a twisted frame. I went under my car one day and noticed all my sub frame bolts had been shifted 1/2 inch to the left from the previous owner geting into an accident. They insist it is normal for cambering and bla bla bla, but i tried removing one of the bolts with my breaker bar and an extension and could not budge the bolt. so today i have it going in and i told them drop the sub frame and look at the car properly. If it were not for the warranty i would have been **** out of luck for half the **** i already replaced on it which has been me constantly going in to vw since i bought the car. i have a stack of work bills as thick as my forearm. So if you plan to buy used vw have it taken off the lot to your own mechanic you know and trust.


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

DEZLBOY said:


> The EPA won't fine VW the maximum because the EPA does not want to put VW out of business in the USA.
> 
> Does this change my mind of making my next car a VW also? Yes, it does. VW cheated. VW knowingly lied about "clean" diesel while making "clean" diesel their main selling point in the USA. It's a question of trust. And doing the right thing (for both me and VW).



Lol You're kidding, right?


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## durhamgti (Nov 15, 2011)

*we are all affected*



charlesm0153 said:


> VW never put the consumer in harms way. Is what they did a really bad thing or a stroke of evil genius? This all kind of reminds me of the antics around F1. So many little tricks to gain a small advantage. Big risk for little gain....worth it? I am not endorsing what VW did but lets hear the whole story before we pass judgment. I would hate to lose VW in america. The only affordable German car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You say they never put the consumer in harms way, but they actually put everyone that breathes in harms way, as it adds to overall air pollution. So some may say it is only a small amount, well if every group was allowed to be a small amount out in the guidelines we would have a big amount, every little bit counts, remember we want a clean planet for our kids down the road.


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## hybridhondahatch (Jun 23, 2003)

In short no, but I'm interested to see how it effects resale like GM's that were plagued by the power steering and ignition systems. Might make for some deals on the used market. 


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## SipSlow (Jun 19, 2013)

To be honest, the first thing I thought when I read the Dieselgate story for the first time is:

"Ok how can I sell my Jetta TDI as fast as possible?"

Then I shopped for new cars from different brands. And like a good husband who contemplates betraying the sanctimony of his marriage only to stop at the very last moment before adultery is committed, I realized I didn't like any other brands. They didn't appeal to me. The only thing I want to drive is a VW. 

So, at this point I just want VW to bend over backwards and pay me for my illegal NOX spewing land missile so I can get a GTI or R. Maybe a CC 2.0T. I can't bring myself to give up on them. It's in my blood. It's in my family's blood. 

Das Auto Für Leben 





And also because I can't afford a Porsche


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## Pathung (Jan 22, 2015)

I doubt that VW's going to buy back my Golf VII TDI, but I do smell a class-action suit around the corner, of which I will be a willing participant.

Will I buy another VW again? Nope, as I don't like being lied to, and I should have a good range of choices for diesel (or whatever) vehicles when this my TDI expires a ten years down the road.


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## kzemaitis (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm in the process of buying a new Golf R. It's the most expensive purchase I've ever made and there are no other manufacturers with the exception of Porsche that I would consider parking in my garage. 

Now I'm second guessing myself not so much because VW lied (I'll reserve judgement until more information is clear) but because I'm questioning VWs future. I know that the fines won't likely be as high as some media outlets are prognosticating and I know that automakers have plenty of $ to deal with these things.

The question is: would you make your biggest investment ($40k for the Golf R) in a company that just lost %20 of it's value in the past 24 hours? I'm no investment expert but even my diehard VW status can't overlook those numbers.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

SipSlow said:


> To be honest, the first thing I thought when I read the Dieselgate story for the first time is:
> 
> "Ok how can I sell my Jetta TDI as fast as possible?"
> 
> ...







haha this made my day! im glad your still hopeful for VW. Please let me know if you get into a GTI or Golf R, the would be pretty sweet compensation.


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

What I want to know is, are their cars going to be cheaper next year?


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## aunsafe2015 (Sep 4, 2015)

kzemaitis said:


> I'm in the process of buying a new Golf R. It's the most expensive purchase I've ever made and there are no other manufacturers with the exception of Porsche that I would consider parking in my garage.
> 
> Now I'm second guessing myself not so much because VW lied (I'll reserve judgement until more information is clear) but because I'm questioning VWs future. I know that the fines won't likely be as high as some media outlets are prognosticating and I know that automakers have plenty of $ to deal with these things.
> 
> The question is: would you make your biggest investment ($40k for the Golf R) in a company that just lost %20 of it's value in the past 24 hours? I'm no investment expert but even my diehard VW status can't overlook those numbers.


My dilemma exactly. I was on the cusp of buying a golf or gti, and while the lying bothers me, that wouldn't cause me to look elsewhere of itself. The big concern to me is whether it's wise to spend $30k on a product from a company that might be about to experience some serious pain. How will that affect prices, value, quality, etc.? I think it's impossible to tell right now, so imo buying from them is a risk until we know a little more about how this might unfold.


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## uhrgenau (Oct 3, 2003)

randomkoreanguy said:


> The media has gone completely nuts about this. I'm hearing about this on podcasts that I listen to that have literally nothing to do with cars. VW has not done anything diabolical or risked their lives of their customers the way some other automakers (allegedly) have. This is an emissions issue, nothing more. The car isn't going to steer you into a tree or suddenly stop in the middle of the highway because of this and I'm sure VW will offer a fix of some sort, albeit perhaps at the expense of either power or the long term life of the car or some other trade-off they weren't initially willing to make. In the big scheme of things, an emissions cheat seems minor. I'm not saying VW is blameless or should be let off the hook, but I think it's important to not get caught up in all the sensationalism and media frenzy and look at this rationally. Ultimately, the safety of the consumer was not compromised. Not only that, the new TDI's have urea injection, so I'd imagine it's a non-issue with the MKVII's (once they prove they're compliant on the open road outside of EPA testing conditions and are re-certified for sale). If this was on the level of the GM ignition fiasco, maybe I'd reconsider my loyalties, but I honestly don't consider this as big a deal as they're making it out to be. How many people who are outraged even know what NOx is? What levels are dangerous? How much the increased emissions of these 500k (or so) cars will actually affect air quality overall? The point being that it's a lot harder to quantify than some of the other more serious safety related recalls. Sure, certain emissions are bad. Air pollution is bad. But the levels they're talking about are really low to begin with. They're throwing around these nebulous, inexact numbers like 10 - 50 times higher, which sound scary, but I bet not many people have paused to think about what the actual numbers are and what kind of real world effects we're talking about. If it was that serious, people would be focused on the health hazards and not the fact that VW "lied/cheated". This story is being turned into an emotional one, focused on how VW is supposedly cheating and lying. Blatant emotional manipulation in order to create a headline grabbing story about something that's essentially a boring emissions/EPA issue. If this is enough to make people jump ship, then whatever, this isn't a dictatorship, but I personally don't see the big deal.
> 
> I don't feel like my personal honor has been stained, I'm not personally offended. From a purely logical standpoint, I don't see how this dramatically affects my future purchasing decisions. The cars all currently still run fine and probably will after the emissions fix too.
> 
> Now, is it a PR nightmare? Yes. A huge setback for VW's reputation that they've slowly rebuilt in this country? Certainly. But Toyota recovered from their gigantic recall (which was, by the way, significantly worse than this and actually involved allegations of customer deaths), I don't see why VW won't recover from this. I have to stress again, this an emissions issue involving the EPA. Think about that. No one is dying, no one's safety is at risk, the cars aren't dangerous in any way, shape, or form. They just emit a bit too much NOx. And somehow the media has turned this into the story of the century and we've all been betrayed by the big evil German corporation, oh noes. Give me a break.


Very good post. Every time is see 18 wheelers, dump trucks, construction equipment and jerks driving "rolling coal" diesel pickups belching copious amounts of diesel particulate into the air I breath, a known and largely unregulated carcinogen, I ask myself whether this isn't a case of focusing on the wrong issue. I personally would appreciate hearing about the facts and the engineering issues underlying this debacle.


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## SipSlow (Jun 19, 2013)

kzemaitis said:


> I'm in the process of buying a new Golf R. It's the most expensive purchase I've ever made and there are no other manufacturers with the exception of Porsche that I would consider parking in my garage.
> 
> Now I'm second guessing myself not so much because VW lied (I'll reserve judgement until more information is clear) but because I'm questioning VWs future. I know that the fines won't likely be as high as some media outlets are prognosticating and I know that automakers have plenty of $ to deal with these things.
> 
> The question is: would you make your biggest investment ($40k for the Golf R) in a company that just lost %20 of it's value in the past 24 hours? I'm no investment expert but even my diehard VW status can't overlook those numbers.



Golf Rs will always hold their value in the US due to the fact that the only people who buy them are enthusiasts. It's one of the few times in the car market that having an extremely niche customer base is a plus. It does everything, it's fast, reliable enough, and even if VW's dealer networks shrinks, there will be many performance shops that would be glad to give you a hand on your R. 

I'd say, give yourself the deal this way: 

Do I care about value? Do I car about investment? Do I care about what driving will be like 10 years from now? 5 even?

Or do I just want a badass car and never look back, any expenses be damned?

A R is a passion buy to me. Otherwise, just buy a GTI. But the R, that's a matter of the heart, not the mind. :beer:


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## kzemaitis (Sep 21, 2007)

SipSlow said:


> Golf Rs will always hold their value in the US due to the fact that the only people who buy them are enthusiasts. It's one of the few times in the car market that having an extremely niche customer base is a plus. It does everything, it's fast, reliable enough, and even if VW's dealer networks shrinks, there will be many performance shops that would be glad to give you a hand on your R.
> 
> I'd say, give yourself the deal this way:
> 
> ...


While I generally agree with what you're saying I don't think a GTI is a "smarter" buy than the Golf R largely for the very small price gap between a higher end GTI and the R. Both are a bit of a passion buy and if I was truly after value I'd buy a sub $20K TSI Golf with %90 of the goodies that either car has.

Of course I'm not after ultimate value, I'm interested in buying a manual AWD hatch before we see manual transmissions all but completely disappear from the market in the next 5 years. I'm buying the car for years of driving enjoyment and have no concern for resale value.

Having said that, only time will tell if this scandal affects resale/cost and the enthusiast market both for TDis and beyond.....Ok it's definitely affecting the TDi market.

VW has made a move that I on my smug high horse would think was a very American thing to do. It's a bit like finding out Daddy cheated on Mommy.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

durhamgti said:


> You say they never put the consumer in harms way, but they actually put everyone that breathes in harms way, as it adds to overall air pollution. So some may say it is only a small amount, well if every group was allowed to be a small amount out in the guidelines we would have a big amount, every little bit counts, remember we want a clean planet for our kids down the road.


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## Cyfry (Jun 23, 2014)

Hey whatever the EPA can do to take your eyes of this colossal screw up! http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28685398/gold-king-mine-epa-was-told-danger-blowout


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## rmart (Sep 24, 2008)

*[email protected]#k off VW*

I have been a lifelong fan of VW. My family owned bugs and busses when I was a boy. My first VW was a 53 oval window bug that I loved dearly. I bought an 84 GTI new that I still regret selling. And my current 08 Jetta has kept me happy over the last seven years. I have tolerated VW's lame delayed replacement cycles for the U.S. And their de-contented or un-offered models in our market. But this TDI scandal has completely destroyed my trust in the company. This deceptive ploy clearly was known and condoned throughout the company. It is a sinister and calculated effort to gain market share on false technical performace stats. And shows a callous disregard for the environment, government regulation and the consumer. As well as highlighting VW's failure to create true performance oriented and green diesel technology. VW has brazenly lied to us and that I cannot tolerate. They have truly screwed themselves in our already tough U.S. market and they deserve to fail completely. I sadly bid VW good riddance.


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## BlitzCreager (Oct 12, 2009)

CSB :thumbup:


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

rmart said:


> I have been a lifelong fan of VW. My family owned bugs and busses when I was a boy. My first VW was a 53 oval window bug that I loved dearly. I bought an 84 GTI new that I still regret selling. And my current 08 Jetta has kept me happy over the last seven years. I have tolerated VW's lame delayed replacement cycles for the U.S. And their de-contented or un-offered models in our market. But this TDI scandal has completely destroyed my trust in the company. This deceptive ploy clearly was known and condoned throughout the company. It is a sinister and calculated effort to gain market share on false technical performace stats. And shows a callous disregard for the environment, government regulation and the consumer. As well as highlighting VW's failure to create true performance oriented and green diesel technology. VW has brazenly lied to us and that I cannot tolerate. They have truly screwed themselves in our already tough U.S. market and they deserve to fail completely. I sadly bid VW good riddance.


But Toyota and GM killing people due to negligence is alright i'm sure.


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

durhamgti said:


> You say they never put the consumer in harms way, but they actually put everyone that breathes in harms way, as it adds to overall air pollution. So some may say it is only a small amount, well if every group was allowed to be a small amount out in the guidelines we would have a big amount, every little bit counts, remember we want a clean planet for our kids down the road.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rmart (Sep 24, 2008)

“It’s a new level of cynicism in the auto industry,” said Jack R. Nerad, executive market analyst at Kelley Blue Book. “We have seen honest mistakes and lapses of judgment before, and tragic things happening, but this strikes me as different. The intent from the beginning seemed to be to evade standard norms.”


The Wrath of VW's Drivers
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/the-wrath-of-volkswagens-drivers.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

I think what VW did was genius... I will still always love them. If Kia could bounce back i know VW can. America will have an "all you can eat, supersized, extra fries, do not resuscitate with extra bacon, hold the lettuce" field day with this. Nothing VW cant handle. At least what they did was clever, unlike GM hiring "Private Pyle" to engineer their vehicles only to have them go careening into oncoming traffic and explode like the Challenger Space Shuttle while people yelled "oh no, the O ring!"

VW's gonna brush this off like the catholic church. No biggie.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

rmart said:


> I have been a lifelong fan of VW. My family owned bugs and busses when I was a boy. My first VW was a 53 oval window bug that I loved dearly. I bought an 84 GTI new that I still regret selling. And my current 08 Jetta has kept me happy over the last seven years. I have tolerated VW's lame delayed replacement cycles for the U.S. And their de-contented or un-offered models in our market. But this TDI scandal has completely destroyed my trust in the company. This deceptive ploy clearly was known and condoned throughout the company. It is a sinister and calculated effort to gain market share on false technical performace stats. And shows a callous disregard for the environment, government regulation and the consumer. As well as highlighting VW's failure to create true performance oriented and green diesel technology. VW has brazenly lied to us and that I cannot tolerate. They have truly screwed themselves in our already tough U.S. market and they deserve to fail completely. I sadly bid VW good riddance.


Pretty sure we will not miss your type. Good riddance indeed.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

rmart said:


> I have been a lifelong fan of VW. My family owned bugs and busses when I was a boy. My first VW was a 53 oval window bug that I loved dearly. I bought an 84 GTI new that I still regret selling. And my current 08 Jetta has kept me happy over the last seven years. I have tolerated VW's lame delayed replacement cycles for the U.S. And their de-contented or un-offered models in our market. But this TDI scandal has completely destroyed my trust in the company. This deceptive ploy clearly was known and condoned throughout the company. It is a sinister and calculated effort to gain market share on false technical performace stats. And shows a callous disregard for the environment, government regulation and the consumer. As well as highlighting VW's failure to create true performance oriented and green diesel technology. VW has brazenly lied to us and that I cannot tolerate. They have truly screwed themselves in our already tough U.S. market and they deserve to fail completely. I sadly bid VW good riddance.


I think what VW did was genius... I will still always love them. If Kia could bounce back i know VW can. America will have an "all you can eat, supersized, extra fries, do not resuscitate with extra bacon, hold the lettuce" field day with this. Nothing VW cant handle. At least what they did was clever, unlike GM hiring "Private Pyle" to engineer their vehicles only to have them go careening into oncoming traffic and explode like the Challenger Space Shuttle while people yelled "oh no, the O ring!"

VW's gonna brush this off like the catholic church. No biggie.


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

GabelessToGabeTown said:


> I think what VW did was genius... I will still always love them. If Kia could bounce back i know VW can. America will have an "all you can eat, supersized, extra fries, do not resuscitate with extra bacon, hold the lettuce" field day with this. Nothing VW cant handle. At least what they did was clever, unlike GM hiring "Private Pyle" to engineer their vehicles only to have them go careening into oncoming traffic and explode like the Challenger Space Shuttle while people yelled "oh no, the O ring!"
> 
> VW's gonna brush this off like the catholic church. No biggie.


I think so. This is mostly driven by media. Not sure what the public interest is. Pollution. Yes, very bad but then dont drive. Being lied to, also bad but it happens more than we know. This will make VW better. Again, there was no direct harm to VW customers. This will goes on as long as the media decides it goes on. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## LC6X (Nov 2, 2006)

I have merged some threads with this one. Let's try to keep all opinions about this matter to one thread.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm sure Ferdie Porsche is laughing his A$$ off in the spirit world. He never forgave Hitler
for not allowing his name, as the creator of 'The Bug', to be applied, opting instead for the
generic name 'Peoples Car' (Volkswagen). Adolph should have allowed the car to be named a 
Porsche Volkswagen.


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

smgs92 said:


> But Toyota and GM killing people due to negligence is alright i'm sure.


This.


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

GabelessToGabeTown said:


> unlike GM hiring "Private Pyle" to engineer their vehicles only to have them go careening into oncoming traffic and explode like the Challenger Space Shuttle while people yelled "oh no, the O ring!"


lol omg.


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## MaybeVWMaybeNOT (Sep 21, 2015)

charlesm0153 said:


> I think so. This is mostly driven by media. Not sure what the public interest is. Pollution. Yes, very bad but then dont drive. Being lied to, also bad but it happens more than we know. This will make VW better. Again, there was no direct harm to VW customers. This will goes on as long as the media decides it goes on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


At the risk of seeming like I'm arguing, there is and will be direct harm to customers. How? Time spent (and time is money) having customers taking vehicles to dealers for fixes or at least intended remedies. Maybe having to leave vehicles overnight or longer due to service delays for large scale recalls. Probably not significant "direct" financial cost -eg- VW will eat the cost of the service itself, but the overall cost is more than just the shop hourly charge and parts price. There may and will likely be harm to consumers in the form of reduced performance (HP, torque, NVH, fuel efficiency, etc, etc, etc...). I'd be very surprised if there was no actual change in any performance measurement, maintenance or reliability after vehicle had been brought into compliance. There will be harm in reduction of resale value for the vehicles affected, and for VW in general that would not occur if this EPA emissions thing came out, and forevermore, when you try to sell your TDi, a smart buyer is going to ask "Is this one of the EPA scandal cars" and ask you to verify compliance efforts, and then use that negative to offer less for the car, just like Cobalt sellers have a lot of explaining to do to potential buyers. Harm is any additional costs (financial or not) borne by the potential, actual or future owners of these vehicles that cannot be fully offset or accounted for by corrections and remedies of VW worldwide or even local.

The bottom line is all across the vehicle lifespan from harm to potential customers (like me who actually can't buy one RIGHT NOW) to second or third owners X years from now, this EPA scandal legacy is rightly and/or wrongly going to hang with these vehicles. And that's harm, any way you cut it. Now... I don't dislike VW, and I'm not getting all anti-corporate or pro or anti-environment or any larger soocio/moral/political arguments. I'm just considering the car. I actually (still) like VW, but I cannot buy the car, and was just days away from pulling the trigger. No hate

As far as the socio/political/ideological stuff about whether VW is good, bad or indifferent and whether they deserve good karma or bad karma or continuing allegiance to the brand, I'll leave those larger umbrella issues for the rest of you to suss out. Me, I was just trying to buy the one car I really, really wanted.


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## fearsomekittens (May 22, 2015)

Last week - 5 days before the news broke - I traded my 2013 golf TDI in on a C250 Mercedes. At the time, I wanted something different and now I think I got really lucky. Who knows when VW will get a recall going. Had I waited another week, I doubt anyone would have wanted to touch my car. To answer the OP's question: The golf was my third VW but I probably won't buy one again. Experience has proven that these cars go to **** fast after 5 or so years: things get loose, noises pop up, et cetera and after a recall and fines, I believe that future quality will suffer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*What would you recommend I do ?*



rmart said:


> I have been a lifelong fan of VW. My family owned bugs and busses when I was a boy. My first VW was a 53 oval window bug that I loved dearly. I bought an 84 GTI new that I still regret selling. And my current 08 Jetta has kept me happy over the last seven years. I have tolerated VW's lame delayed replacement cycles for the U.S. And their de-contented or un-offered models in our market. But this TDI scandal has completely destroyed my trust in the company. This deceptive ploy clearly was known and condoned throughout the company. It is a sinister and calculated effort to gain market share on false technical performace stats. And shows a callous disregard for the environment, government regulation and the consumer. As well as highlighting VW's failure to create true performance oriented and green diesel technology. VW has brazenly lied to us and that I cannot tolerate. They have truly screwed themselves in our already tough U.S. market and they deserve to fail completely. I sadly bid VW good riddance.


rmart,

It sounds like you know VWs and were a longtime VW fan, so I respect your advice.

I ordered my first VW on September 5, 2015, a 2016 Golf R and put down $500. I am not sure I can get my money back.

Should I stick with VW in sprite of their diesel debacle or cancel my order and buy a Ford Focus RS? I want a manual shift, AWD, performance hatchback ..not many other choices.

Thanks,

MidCow3


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

Midcow3. I don't think that this should mean you sacrifice getting an R for an RS that's going to rattle like crazy in 5 years


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

So considering all of this, what APR rates do you think we'll see for November/December on a new GTI? 😁


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## Pathung (Jan 22, 2015)

rmart said:


> I have been a lifelong fan of VW. My family owned bugs and busses when I was a boy. My first VW was a 53 oval window bug that I loved dearly. I bought an 84 GTI new that I still regret selling. And my current 08 Jetta has kept me happy over the last seven years. I have tolerated VW's lame delayed replacement cycles for the U.S. And their de-contented or un-offered models in our market. But this TDI scandal has completely destroyed my trust in the company. This deceptive ploy clearly was known and condoned throughout the company. It is a sinister and calculated effort to gain market share on false technical performace stats. And shows a callous disregard for the environment, government regulation and the consumer. As well as highlighting VW's failure to create true performance oriented and green diesel technology. VW has brazenly lied to us and that I cannot tolerate. They have truly screwed themselves in our already tough U.S. market and they deserve to fail completely. I sadly bid VW good riddance.


It seems like you're one of the few on here who understands the definition of "trust", and what its violation means and how it could hurt, in many ways. I was never a huge VW fan, but have had two before, and now own a 2015 Golf TDI, and I love it. Once they tweak the software back to legal specs, perhaps I wouldn't love it as much? In any case, I think that my moral principles are much more valuable than my affinity to a machine; I'll be replacing this car with a non-VW in the future. Consumers always have a choice, when they act rationally - remember that, VW! We're not stupid.


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## GrecianVolvo (Feb 18, 2005)

durhamgti said:


> I think a bigger problem for VW is getting the people to bring in their cars to get 'fixed'. The way it is now they get more horsepower and better performance in the hidden illegal mode, why bring your car in for an upgrade that will deteriorate performance and cause components to maybe wear out faster and get lower mpg, VW will have to wave a big carrot in front of their customers to get them to comply. Also what about decreased value of all these units now on the road, who will compensate owners for that?


I bet the local or federal government will demand proof that the recall has been taken care of otherwise they will reject the eligibility to renew the registration.


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## pmerm (Mar 4, 2012)

Nothing of substance to add, but I thought people here would appreciate the headline title of this new article in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/b...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


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## kzemaitis (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm curious for those of you who say you are walking away from VW: What exactly will you be replacing it with?

And do you believe that that automakers nose is any cleaner than VWs?

There have been a lot of car scandals over the year and although I do "vote with my dollars" I can't find s better solution.

If I were to walk away from VW I'd be giving up a lot more than my car. I'd be compromising my aesthetic taste and a lot of performance and quality not to mention a car that I greatly identify with. I just don't see any real alternatives.

The Focus RS looks good on paper but looks like a gaudy running sneaker in real life (to me) and let's not forget Ford reported false fuel consumption numbers on their window stickers just a couple years ago.


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## tmacvr6 (May 26, 2010)

*I Agree...*

I'm a loyal VW owner and still have a Mark IV Jetta wagon with 5 spd and VR6 that I bought in '01 as my daily commuter. After my 2012 GTI was totaled by a distracted driver last year, I purchased a 2014 Golf TDI with 6 spd for my wife. I guess this car is essentially worthless now?

I had been in the market for a base Golf R with manual...not now.


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## rare (Apr 7, 2005)

*buy my car back*

Use some of that 7 billion to buy back my car from me. It was sold to me under false pretenses and quite frankly, as far as I can tell, is illegal to own one at this point. The government has frozen the sale of all TDI models as far back as MY2009 if I read correctly. Their deceit and negligence just submarine'ed the value of the car too. I've had it all of 12 months and it is still under factory warranty with 30k miles on it. I guarantee a big class action firm is already on the case but they'll be the only ones to see much compensation.


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## GrecianVolvo (Feb 18, 2005)

GabelessToGabeTown said:


> I think what VW did was genius... I will still always love them. If Kia could bounce back i know VW can. America will have an "all you can eat, supersized, extra fries, do not resuscitate with extra bacon, hold the lettuce" field day with this. Nothing VW cant handle. At least what they did was clever, unlike GM hiring "Private Pyle" to engineer their vehicles only to have them go careening into oncoming traffic and explode like the Challenger Space Shuttle while people yelled "oh no, the O ring!"
> 
> VW's gonna brush this off like the catholic church. No biggie.


That is what I call "sticking your head in the sand"...actually, not just your head...all the way to the chest.


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## LemonJetta (Jul 7, 2015)

Martin Winterkorn, CEO of VW, resigned today. 

He characterizes this matter as a "grave crisis" and admits being "stunned that misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group."

I'm offering this to anyone who still thinks this isn't a big deal.


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## britishrocco (Dec 14, 2006)

not at all, my next car will definitely be a vw I've been driving them since 93, just hope this will fast forward the presence of the GTE golf/passat over here.


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## VDUBFAN67 (May 10, 2015)

britishrocco said:


> not at all, my next car will definitely be a vw I've been driving them since 93, just hope this will fast forward the presence of the GTE golf/passat over here.


I second that ! VW could certainly regain some popularity in north-america by making the E-Golf and the GTE available everywhere.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

I think its fanboy ferver for this to not give you pause. I mean, what if they had found a way to circumvent a safety system?

I've had 2 VWs, and I would still likely buy a 3rd at the moment, but this is entirely going to depend on how the company deals with this and how they amend their ways going forward. I still really like their products.


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

I've had several friends over the years purchase, drive and LOVE their TDIs. Not *ONE* of them ever said to me "and it's crazy good at emissions". I've read several articles on this, including one that basically said the the amount of emissions NOx (even at 40 times the allowable limit) is so few particles per million that it is almost statistically irrelevant. The EPA is using this to punish VW for a lot of things...most notably their crappy oversight that let this actually go on for several years. I say BRAVO to VW for such a novel solution to a collosal problem (read: the EPA). It's amazing to me how all of a sudden there's this HUGE environmental scandal just a few weeks after the EPA polluted the Animas river with arguably the second most poisonous substances on the planet behind nuclear waste. 

I bet if you took all 11 million VW TDIs affected by this and let them drive for a year, it wouldn't nearly equal half of what went into the Animas river, the surrounding watershed and any points downstream..and it's not nearly as toxic. 

AJ


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

LemonJetta said:


> Martin Winterkorn, CEO of VW, resigned today.
> 
> He characterizes this matter as a "grave crisis" and admits being "stunned that misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group."
> 
> I'm offering this to anyone who still thinks this isn't a big deal.


yeah no... this isn't gonna amount to sh** 5 years from now... Like the time I farted in art class in 9th grade next to my crush. Sure it was a crappy and a smelly situation and everyone was talking about it, but eventually the smell dissipated and things went right back to normal. I became a better man because of it. Go on VW do ya thang.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

GrecianVolvo said:


> That is what I call "sticking your head in the sand"...actually, not just your head...all the way to the chest.


Uh, duh... That's what they are going to need to do eventually. So this sh** tornado can blow over and america can stop being offended and go back to what we do best... Taking a selfie/video of ourselves doing the ice bucket challenge while not occupying a job, on an occupy wall street float in a gay pride parade sponsored by a medical marijuana dispensary being shown by TMZ...


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

Seriously. Lets compare how legit the EPA actually is.

http://www.volkswagengroupamerica.com/facts.html

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/08/epa-accident-causes-more-water-pollution-than-fracking-does/


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

Yeah, nothing to see except 1/2 million cars purposefully designed to break the law.


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

Retr0 said:


> Yeah, nothing to see except 1/2 million cars purposefully designed to break the law.



True, but did the rest of the company actually know this or is this a scheme driven by the ******* who also doesn't let us get the most recent styles too?


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

I've driven by Volkswagen Drive in Tennessee and you would never guess what is actually being done back there. 

AJ



weagle1856 said:


> Seriously. Lets compare how legit the EPA actually is.
> 
> http://www.volkswagengroupamerica.com/facts.html
> 
> http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/08/epa-accident-causes-more-water-pollution-than-fracking-does/


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

mcseforsale said:


> I've had several friends over the years purchase, drive and LOVE their TDIs. Not *ONE* of them ever said to me "and it's crazy good at emissions". I've read several articles on this, including one that basically said the the amount of emissions NOx (even at 40 times the allowable limit) is so few particles per million that it is almost statistically irrelevant. The EPA is using this to punish VW for a lot of things...most notably their crappy oversight that let this actually go on for several years. I say BRAVO to VW for such a novel solution to a collosal problem (read: the EPA). It's amazing to me how all of a sudden there's this HUGE environmental scandal just a few weeks after the EPA polluted the Animas river with arguably the second most poisonous substances on the planet behind nuclear waste.
> 
> I bet if you took all 11 million VW TDIs affected by this and let them drive for a year, it wouldn't nearly equal half of what went into the Animas river, the surrounding watershed and any points downstream..and it's not nearly as toxic.
> 
> AJ


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

I suppose that's why there's an investigation into the matter, weagle1865.

Even more important than the blame is how VW intends to resolve the issue. After all, they just broke the law half a million times, and as a 2012 tdi golf sportwagen owner I am party to this crime.


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## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

rare said:


> Use some of that 7 billion to buy back my car from me. It was sold to me under false pretenses and quite frankly, as far as I can tell, is illegal to own one at this point. The government has frozen the sale of all TDI models as far back as MY2009 if I read correctly. Their deceit and negligence just submarine'ed the value of the car too. I've had it all of 12 months and it is still under factory warranty with 30k miles on it. I guarantee a big class action firm is already on the case but they'll be the only ones to see much compensation.


Your car is not illegal to own. The EPA even has a FAQ about this if you wanted to go look it up. The government has frozen no sales of any TDI models. VW has voluntarily put a stop sell on dealerships with TDIs on the lot and most dealerships have moved the cars off the main selling floor. 2016 TDI models haven't been given cleared to leave port.

Stop spreading FUD. About the only thing true in your post is that there is a class action lawsuit forming by at least two law firms that I've seen.


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## LemonJetta (Jul 7, 2015)

GabelessToGabeTown said:


> yeah no... this isn't gonna amount to sh** 5 years from now... Like the time I farted in art class in 9th grade next to my crush. Sure it was a crappy and a smelly situation and everyone was talking about it, but eventually the smell dissipated and things went right back to normal. I became a better man because of it. Go on VW do ya thang.


Everything went back to normal ... so she remained your crush, nothing more? Cool story.

This thread is overrun by fanboys.


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## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

mcseforsale said:


> I've had several friends over the years purchase, drive and LOVE their TDIs. Not *ONE* of them ever said to me "and it's crazy good at emissions". I've read several articles on this, including one that basically said the the amount of emissions NOx (even at 40 times the allowable limit) is so few particles per million that it is almost statistically irrelevant. The EPA is using this to punish VW for a lot of things...most notably their crappy oversight that let this actually go on for several years. I say BRAVO to VW for such a novel solution to a collosal problem (read: the EPA). It's amazing to me how all of a sudden there's this HUGE environmental scandal just a few weeks after the EPA polluted the Animas river with arguably the second most poisonous substances on the planet behind nuclear waste.
> 
> I bet if you took all 11 million VW TDIs affected by this and let them drive for a year, it wouldn't nearly equal half of what went into the Animas river, the surrounding watershed and any points downstream..and it's not nearly as toxic.
> 
> AJ


The cars with cheater emissions are likely emitting more NOx than a 1979 diesel VW or a big gas engine on a Suburban. NOx emissions are a major cause of smog and smog is a major cause of premature death.

I just don't get the VW and pollution apologists who want to play shoot-the-messenger. Query: how much more in taxes are you willing to pay to have the EPA do more stringent testing of motor vehicle emissions?


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

Actually, no. The way it was explained was that the TDI is emitting 35 - 50 times more than the legal limit....which is still infinitesimal....something along the lines of 4 ppm instead of 1ppm. The EPA is just another government organization set up (albeit with good intentions) to wrestle control away from the states. 

As far as apologist, I'm not one of those. I've been driving VWs for almost 30 years and I've loved them all....even though most of them hated me. What I'm saying is that it's very convenient that the EPA just basically wrecked several watershed and river systems for forever and then this pops up....all after VW in Tenn successfully fought off unions. Let no good crisis go to waste. 

AJ



guachi said:


> The cars with cheater emissions are likely emitting more NOx than a 1979 diesel VW or a big gas engine on a Suburban. NOx emissions are a major cause of smog and smog is a major cause of premature death.
> 
> I just don't get the VW and pollution apologists who want to play shoot-the-messenger. Query: how much more in taxes are you willing to pay to have the EPA do more stringent testing of motor vehicle emissions?


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

> .....something along the lines of 4 ppm instead of 1ppm. The EPA is just another government organization set up (albeit with good intentions) to wrestle control away from the states.


Something science-ish!

Problem though. We are not looking at ppm. We are looking at ppm*(some unit of time.) I'm interest in your facts though, please share the sources.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

Also, 35-50 times 1ppm is not 4ppm. It's 35-50ppm. Concerned yet?


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

I know, I know. I read it yesterday and I can't remember where the heck it was. It was from a technical site of some sort and it was posited by some scientific dude. He had a couple of cool facts that I would totally butcher if I tried to remember/explain them here. :screwy:

AJ



Retr0 said:


> Something science-ish!
> 
> Problem though. We are not looking at ppm. We are looking at ppm*(some unit of time.) I'm interest in your facts though, please share the sources.


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

No.



Retr0 said:


> Also, 35-50 times 1ppm is not 4ppm. It's 35-50ppm. Concerned yet?


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

mcseforsale said:


> No.


Lock yourself in your garage with the engine running then. 

It's obviously safe. Its only emitting 50 ppm * (some measure of time.) I'm sure you'll be fine. :vampire:


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't drive a TDI.

Thanks, though. It's always nice for someone with a different opinion than yours telling you to go die. And being new-ish around here, I'll keep that in mind when I see the word Retr0. :wave:

AJ





Retr0 said:


> Lock yourself in your garage with the engine running then.
> 
> It's obviously safe. Its only emitting 50 ppm * (some measure of time.) I'm sure you'll be fine. :vampire:


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

Stop being butt-hurt, the emojis say I'm joking.

But seriously, this is a big deal for some people, myself included. I'm a law-abiding citizen, but my car is a criminal.


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

LOL. So were mine :wave:eace: Anywho. I don't have a dog in this fight other than saying that it's not the catastrophe that the media is dishing out. I don't like it when there are far worse things going on while the media try to bring down a corporation that can probably fix the problem. Going around the rules is how competition works. Finding loopholes and exploiting them is why the rules change. It's just like F1. And, I respect them for that. I'm not a fan of the EPA since politicians began using it to kill companies that weren't sympathetic to the existing ruling power. As far as I'm concerned, VW met the existing EPA guidelines as they were written. They passed the tests as they were designed and that's enough. If argued correctly, this might be a non-starter legally. And they just got the best lawyers for the job. This is going to take years to litigate...people will forget.

AJ




Retr0 said:


> Stop being butt-hurt, the emojis say I'm joking.
> 
> But seriously, this is a big deal for some people, myself included. I'm a law-abiding citizen, but my car is a criminal.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

LemonJetta said:


> Everything went back to normal ... so she remained your crush, nothing more? Cool story.
> 
> This thread is overrun by fanboys.


the point is she forgot about my flatulence. people will stop caring.


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## Cyfry (Jun 23, 2014)

I don't recall this being as big of a deal...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...8114f4-6370-11e4-9fdc-d43b053ecb4d_story.html

Oh wait that's right the EPA didn't just totally screw up right before that happened....

Pay no attention to this river we polluted, look at VW!

At the end of the day I feel like VW lied to the EPA in order to give the consumer what they wanted. A car with good mpg, that was fun to drive, and made the 1 person out of 100 who actually considers emissions when buying a vehicle something to feel good about.

But hey maybe they thought they could get away with it since the EPA uses the likeness of a Porsche in their emissions overview?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/05-autos.pdf


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## LemonJetta (Jul 7, 2015)

mcseforsale said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight other than saying that it's not the catastrophe that the media is dishing out. I don't like it when there are far worse things going on while the media try to bring down a corporation that can probably fix the problem. [...] As far as I'm concerned, VW met the existing EPA guidelines as they were written. They passed the tests as they were designed and that's enough. If argued correctly, this might be a non-starter legally.


Wow. All wrong. All of it. The CEO of the company resigns amidst a scandal and you're blaming "the media" and the EPA? 



Cyfry said:


> At the end of the day I feel like VW lied to the EPA in order to give the consumer what they wanted. A car with good mpg, that was fun to drive, and made the 1 person out of 100 who actually considers emissions when buying a vehicle something to feel good about.


VW defrauded its customers and the EPA because VW failed to design an engine that satisfied government regulations and consumer desires for performance and efficiency. VW knew the cars wouldn't satisfy regulations and hid this fact from consumers. Know why? Because money, and because no one (maybe fanboys) would buy a car that will become the subject of worldwide regulatory fraud.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Not at all. Seems to me to be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. Management never knows the technical details. They just push out the mandate of the shareholders, and constantly remind their subordinates that failure is not an option. This sort of thing happens more than most people realize. Some of us have seen it firsthand. (even if not on this large of a scale)

I'll still buy VW. (well, Audi, anyway) I've always loved my VAG cars.


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## alpine45 (Dec 19, 2006)

Im surprised that this is such a shock. vw stopped selling tdi's in north America after 2006 because they couldn't meet emissions standard and people thought that in 2 model years they re invented the wheel enough to meet emissions standards. no they figured out how to cheat the system and i will be very surprised if we don't see in the next few months other manufactures being guilty of this. 
I think that the unfortunate part of all of this is that peoples thoughts of diesel powered vehicles as being "dirty" and "bad" is being solidified, a shame when other manufactures where starting to bring and sell diesel powered cars in north America. 
walking away from vw, what auto manufacture isn't guilty of lying to its customers? however nothing will convince some people, the people who are enraged by this are the same people that are holding their hands out looking for something for nothing. :wave:


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## Cyfry (Jun 23, 2014)

LemonJetta said:


> Wow. All wrong. All of it. The CEO of the company resigns amidst a scandal and you're blaming "the media" and the EPA?
> 
> 
> 
> VW defrauded its customers and the EPA because VW failed to design an engine that satisfied government regulations and consumer desires for performance and efficiency. VW knew the cars wouldn't satisfy regulations and hid this fact from consumers. Know why? Because money, and because no one (maybe fanboys) would buy a car that will become the subject of worldwide regulatory fraud.



All mine run on gasoline so I feel no fraud. I have no love for the EPA. The EPA says I'm not allowed to build a shed on my property within 50 feet of a drainage ditch. The EPA says I can not have a fire in my back yard larger then 3' by 3'. The EPA doesn't like my wood burning stove or my 2 stroke engines. The EPA requires me to use this BUL***T gas can. The EPA fines the city I happen to live on the very outskirts of, causes the city to raise my water bill to help pay for the fine and the required updates, yet the EPA fine money goes to the EPA and not towards fixing the city's problem?

To hell with the EPA (as I said, I have no love for them). I do love the fact VW pulled the wool over their eyes as long as they did. If anything it proves how inept the EPA is at confirming that vehicles meet their own guidelines. It wasn't even the EPA that found the problem, it was the http://www.theicct.org/ Just remember the EPA is the same type of government organizations in charge of the Iran nuclear deal, (queue that turkey vulture from the old looney tunes cartoons) uh huh, yep, yep, Iran said they aren't making any nuclear weapons huh, huh, yep, yep, they said that, uh huh.

When are they going to start doing "real world testing" of other vehicles? I bet others fail as well when you change the test questions.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

> Im surprised that this is such a shock. vw stopped selling tdi's in north America after 2006 because they couldn't meet emissions standard and people thought that in 2 model years they re invented the wheel enough to meet emissions standards. no they figured out how to cheat the system and i will be very surprised if we don't see in the next few months other manufactures being guilty of this.
> I think that the unfortunate part of all of this is that peoples thoughts of diesel powered vehicles as being "dirty" and "bad" is being solidified, a shame when other manufactures where starting to bring and sell diesel powered cars in north America.
> walking away from vw, what auto manufacture isn't guilty of lying to its customers? however nothing will convince some people, the people who are enraged by this are the same people that are holding their hands out looking for something for nothing.


Its not impossible that, given the quality of diesel and the newly designed engine could meet emissions test, they in fact do meet tests under specific circumstances. I'm an engineer and I understand technical progress. 

What VW did is unconscionable, though by circumventing proper testing. I own an example of one of these cars, and there is a very good chance I've been harmed economically by this fiasco. I'm waiting to see how they make this right. I still really like their cars and would buy another, but I'm not going to give money to a company that harms both the environment excessively and the owners of their otherwise wonderful cars. I can't abide by that crime.

If you have a gas VW, please enjoy it but try to understand that some of us have a very real implication to this story, and fanboyism isn't helping. VW lied to me and to the regulatory agency that certified the car I purchased them.


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

Does anyone think this will bankrupt VW or at least chase them out of the North American market? I suppose much depends on their ability to keep selling cars but that is not the certainty that it was a week ago. 


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

No. It sure as hell won't even come close to bankrupting them lol. 
And it wont chase them out of our market. But it will limit what we either get from them (diesel wise anyways) due to this standard that they won't meet.


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

charlesm0153 said:


> Does anyone think this will bankrupt VW or at least chase them out of the North American market? I suppose much depends on their ability to keep selling cars but that is not the certainty that it was a week ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


honestly, i dont think this will bankrupt VW. The EPA will examine this thoroughly and many past examples of violations will be considered when "sentencing" VW. The fact that VW didn't kill anyone is gonna favor them greatly. Also Americans don't care as much about emissions as we say we do. We just love juicy stories to talk about and point fingers. Something will eventually take our attention off VW and back onto Kim Kardashians a** The recent bs with the EPA blowing it w/ the contamination may urge the EPA to go for the jugular and allow this to be blown out of proportion as much as possible. Here in America, VW was projected to overtake Toyota by 2018 and become the leading manufacturer here in the US. This momentum may seem lost now but will help VW soldier on. VW sales have been skyrocketing while this year Toyotas sales have been down 21-24% if I remember correctly. This may very well hinder VW in the race to overtake the US market by 2018-2020 but the fact that they were a big contender is going to contribute to them bouncing back. If history has shown us anything, usually companies in these situations have to make sacrifices most other auto makes wouldn't in order to re-earn business and trust. Once notoriety is gained then compromises in the product will slowly be made. KIA/Hyundai are shining examples of this. Hyundai is very popular now and over the last 3 years I have seen Hyundai slowly, ever so slowly make calculated compromises in their product, warranty, features, all while the price tag continued to climb year by year. KIA currently is the exact opposite. Apples to apples KIA's are doing everything they can to offer the most bang for your $, and more piece of mind w/ reliability and warranty than anyone else from class to class. ( Remember i said class to class idiot who wants to ask why a KIA isn't beating a Ford F-150 or even a GTI...) KIA is doing extremely well right now and they are going balls deep to gain notoriety just like Hyundai, Toyota, Honda have all struggled to gain. When they do however they will most likely start skimping on their product...


With that all being said, once the dust settles, this will be the position VW will most likely be in. This is when they bounce back. They will probably start putting their best foot forward to gain a foothold again. Consumers in this economy respond very well to value. Just ask the racist veteran who fought in the Korean war if he likes his new Kia... LOL. He loves it. VW can totally bounce back from this, and do well in the US market. The only thing that can hinder their progress is themselves. If managment, marketing, accounting, engineering, and design can all work in unison all the way down to the showroom in a very deliberate fashion to establish transparency and trust to the American consumer in a way that exudes value, they will be fine. Value can erase transgressions in the mind of the American consumer faster than Jesus could forigve St. Theresa for eating an extra slice of pie on her deathbed...


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## jetta464 (Sep 24, 2015)

*buy again*

Well i remember back in the mid 70's removing emission equipment from cars. The fact that VW did it for me, makes me want another one! i have been driving VW's and Audi's my entire life and Im old! 
My plan for this 2013 TDI Jetta simple, love the switch they installed!!! im going to add a bigger turbo and chip it...and drive it forever!!!! 
God Bless VW  
umpkin::heart:


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## ropegun (Aug 30, 2003)

What economic harm has this caused you thus far? You drive a vehicle that likely gets consistently better than advertised milage? My 2012 Golf is rated at 30/42. I have averaged 39mpg over the 52,000 miles i've put on my car (most of that being city driving). 

Certainly your vehicle is worth less money today - but only if you sell today....

So unless you are compelled to sell because your car is not as "green" as you thought it was, you have suffered no financial harm...


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## robjettauk (Jul 11, 2015)

couldnt care less. Love VAG cars. Last car in the UK was a A6 Avant with the CR170 TDI lump and now running a CC and Jetta in the US. When I move back to the UK after my Air Force post I will go for a Golf R or a Seat Cupra ST Estate..... VAG make great cars....


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## TheLocNar (Apr 6, 2015)

CEO resigns, may get a $32,000,000 pension. And a rather substantial severance package.

In what world is that fair? This world.

http://time.com/4047499/volkswagen-ceo-martin-winterkorn-pension/


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

@IBDeditorials: When it comes to deception, who's the bigger "fraud" - Volkswagen or the #EPA? http://t.co/zNxQK7sEBb #tcot #globalwarming http://news.investors.com/blogs-cap...overblown-automaker-complied-with-the-law.htm


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## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Cyfry said:


> Just remember the EPA is the same type of government organizations in charge of the Iran nuclear deal, (queue that turkey vulture from the old looney tunes cartoons).


The Iran inspections and monitoring operations are being done by the IAEA, an international organization. They have a proven track record in similar projects to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/focus/iran


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## dasdriver (Jun 11, 2015)

Does the EPA/Diesel thing + huge fine make you rethinking buying a VW?

Uhhhhh - No

At least VW is not GM, Ford, or Toyota.... whose problems include manufacturing defects that have actually KILLED people...

For my Budget, VW will be my next car.


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## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

If I hadn't purchased my 2015 TDI two weeks before the scandal broke, it would have made me rethink buying a VW. The reason simply being that there were very few SE or SEL TSI Sportwagens out there so finding a 2015 with the color and options I like would have been very difficult.


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## rex555 (Apr 10, 2013)

Hopefully with the changes at the top we will start seeing some of the Euro only cars come to NA. cough R400 cough R wagon cough :laugh:


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## MaybeVWMaybeNOT (Sep 21, 2015)

While I've spoken already about vehicle and real-world, vehicle specific issues, I do have a few larger umbrella thoughts, and then I'll let the whole thing go for a bit:
-I hope that the same amount of attention and focus on what VW did wrong, as a "big bad manipulating corporation", etc... is applied equally to other automakers and indeed other companies.
-I hope that in terms of environmental impact, that there is equal concern applied to other companies and entities that pollute as much, or more. China anyone?

Aka- I think consistency and sense of proportion and accurate assessment of business and environmental risk in relation to all other businesses, competitors, and entities should accompany these conversations as much as possible.

While VW is guilty of business and environmental misdeeds, it would indeed be a shame that in the process of raising hell and fury about VW, it becomes the new focus that takes the eyes off other companies or entities. As a comparative matter just to make what I think is a reasonable point, those that are up in arms or a****ectic about the VW environmental aspects (which I don't particularly begrudge or disagree with as a matter of principle), "fixing" China's environmental misdeeds and malaise is a much more impactful endeavor to advocate for than taking aim at the comparatively small environmental impact from the company's diesel engines, even if they are found worldwide.

Are the people who are calling out VW's emissions violations also equally looking at coal industry, trucking industry, various mfg sectors, and China?
Are the people who are calling out VW's business practices also equally looking at anti-trust issues, monopoly issues, taxation issues, etc... from various companies?

Are these fundamental issues really ones that matter to you, or is VW the "low lying damaged fruit" that can be picked and picked over in a supposed delightful way that is the stock and fodder of so much internet conversation? 

What VW did is a real, and big bad deal, which I certainly don't deny. Nobody could possibly plausibly deny. They will certainly reap seeds they sow. And then some.


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## markoVW (Aug 17, 2007)

nah... they should be fine. if anything, it may hit their R&D budget for upcoming models (i.e. delay in new model intro possibly), but once made I'm sure they'll be just as good as they are today.

also, since most of us change the program on our cars right away to enhance performance, I cant be too pissed at vdub for doing the same thing.

lastly, TDIs are still good cars with great gas millage.. as for the environment aspect (for me personally) - oh well.
there are bigger offenders out there.

VAG 4ever for me. 




aunsafe2015 said:


> Prior to the whole issue with the EPA and potential $18 billion fine for gaming emissions on diesels, I was probably about a month from buying a 1.8T Golf SEL. Now I'm having second thoughts. Not because it changes my opinion of VW. But because it makes me wonder if the potential gigantic fine is going to cause them financial difficulties, make them start cutting corners on building cars or doing maintenance work, etc.
> 
> Anybody have any concerns? Will it be business as usual at VW or is this going to affect quality?


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## markoVW (Aug 17, 2007)

this.



MaybeVWMaybeNOT said:


> , "fixing" China's environmental misdeeds and malaise is a much more impactful endeavor to advocate for than taking aim at the comparatively small environmental impact from the company's diesel engines, even if they are found worldwide.
> 
> Are the people who are calling out VW's emissions violations also equally looking at coal industry, trucking industry, various mfg sectors, and China?
> Are the people who are calling out VW's business practices also equally looking at anti-trust issues, monopoly issues, taxation issues, etc... from various companies?
> ...


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

I suppose we have held VW up to a higher standard. 'German Engineering'. They needed to protect that idea. It is a big blow to their image. 


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

Hmmm. Trend perhaps? One must understand that all competing car companies probably buy the most successful models of each others vehicles and completely reverse engineer them. And, as you all know, the ECUs that VW uses are NOT manufactured by VW, but by a vendor who probably supplies the exact model to almost all companies using similar engine technologies. Unless the software is encrypted on these systems, reading the code would be fairly straight forward. VW may not have been the actual creator of this type of system. Enjoy:

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/bmw-mercedes-bmw-gm-could-cheating-emissions-tests-153019787.html

AJ


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

BMW now also being investigated


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

charlesm0153 said:


> I suppose we have held VW up to a higher standard. 'German Engineering'. They needed to protect that idea. It is a big blow to their image.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



To understand it you'd need the source code, and I doubt more than a handful of people have access.

Look, this isn't a simple cheat. This is as ingenious as it is diabolical.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

For those of you who have a hard time visualizing the scope of the damage, from the Guardian:



> Volkswagen’s rigging of emissions tests for 11m cars means they may be responsible for nearly 1m tonnes of air pollution every year, roughly the same as the UK’s combined emissions for all power stations, vehicles, industry and agriculture, a Guardian analysis suggests


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

And, awaaaaaaaaaay we go:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bmw-shares-slip-report-high-094815297.html

AJ


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## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Here's another article, reporting that the Dieselgate scandal may spread to other brands:

http://jalopnik.com/watchdog-group-...are-cheating-on-1732615322?utm_source=taboola

Many VW fans are worried that an over-zealous EPA could be damaging the resale values of their cars. Some of the more hysterical ones even worry that it might cause VW to pull out of the US. But, ironically, if the EPA (and other watchdog entities) continue a vigorous investigation of real-world vs test-lab emission data, and if they find that cars from other companies are coming up short, that will dilute the negative publicity affecting the VW brand. The general public will begin to believe that "they all do it" and VW becomes less of a pariah. Most of the readers in this forum probably think that way already.

Of course, TDI owners might still face the prospect of a recall, and ECU mods that reduce performance and fuel economy. That sucks. I have an idea for an alternative solution that would be better for VW diesel owners, and might still satisfy the government. But I'll post that later in another thread.


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## jaed.43725 (Jan 19, 2015)

EPA can go to hell. They are the liars here not VW.


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## americanstandardtele (May 31, 2014)

jaed.43725 said:


> EPA can go to hell. They are the liars here not VW.


lol, what?


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> For those of you who have a hard time visualizing the scope of the damage, from the Guardian:


It's it from the Guardian, it can't be wrong... Everyone knows that to report news, you actually have to be knowledgeable of the subject matter.


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## Mrubey (Sep 25, 2015)

*Buying*

I intended to buy another VW in the very near future and have not changed my mind, though I am deeply disappointed. We currently have a 1.4T Jeta. Our second one and we've loved them. I also had a Dasher once upon a time. I am anticipating very enticing I incentives beginning next month. I have no doubt VW will come out of this and be a better global citizen for it.


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## americanstandardtele (May 31, 2014)

Oh my lord, what is wrong with you people? VW has made like, the worst decision ever, and has possibly ruined the company for good, plus lots of other companies, plus polluted like a mofo while claiming to be the jolly green giant. Its a disaster. It's epic. It is the BP oil spill of automotive recalls. All of you who say it will blow over are crazy. All of you who attempt to put up these tinfoil hat "oh the EPA is out to get big business" need to turn of FOX news and put away their Scott Walker sleep with me huggie pillows and read the goddang news from every outlet from A-Z, because this is not going away. VW is in huge financial trouble. VW is in huge legal trouble. VW is in a huge PR crisis. It's not like Toyota had ad campaigns saying "Our accelerator pedals are the least sticky in the business" prior to that recall but VW did with all of that clean diesel nonsense everywhere. Oh clean? You mean clean of if clean is defined as "dirtier than a freaking locomotive" - see, so being the opposite of what you claim, and base much of your business on is BAD if it is found out you systemically lied and cheated the US gov, and the govs of every other country in which you sell. That's BAD. 

Diesel is done in this country, thanks to VW. And possibly VW. At the least, we owners are screwed in terms of public opinions and resale. Think I'm an idiot? Wander down to Carmax and get a quote on your GTI or whatever, and get back to me. Check black book or edmunds in 3 months. Y'all can complain and bitch and moan and talk about fake moon landings all you want but that won't change the facts, or the ball that is rolling. We might be able to get a really good deal and a fantastic trade in on another VW because both VW and ourselves will have no choice!


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

americanstandardtele said:


> Oh my lord, what is wrong with you people? VW has made like, the worst decision ever, and has possibly ruined the company for good, plus lots of other companies, plus polluted like a mofo while claiming to be the jolly green giant. Its a disaster. It's epic. It is the BP oil spill of automotive recalls. All of you who say it will blow over are crazy. All of you who attempt to put up these tinfoil hat "oh the EPA is out to get big business" need to turn of FOX news and put away their Scott Walker sleep with me huggie pillows and read the goddang news from every outlet from A-Z, because this is not going away. VW is in huge financial trouble. VW is in huge legal trouble. VW is in a huge PR crisis. It's not like Toyota had ad campaigns saying "Our accelerator pedals are the least sticky in the business" prior to that recall but VW did with all of that clean diesel nonsense everywhere. Oh clean? You mean clean of if clean is defined as "dirtier than a freaking locomotive" - see, so being the opposite of what you claim, and base much of your business on is BAD if it is found out you systemically lied and cheated the US gov, and the govs of every other country in which you sell. That's BAD.
> 
> Diesel is done in this country, thanks to VW. And possibly VW. At the least, we owners are screwed in terms of public opinions and resale. Think I'm an idiot? Wander down to Carmax and get a quote on your GTI or whatever, and get back to me. Check black book or edmunds in 3 months. Y'all can complain and bitch and moan and talk about fake moon landings all you want but that won't change the facts, or the ball that is rolling. We might be able to get a really good deal and a fantastic trade in on another VW because both VW and ourselves will have no choice!


Way to over react. BP of automotive recalls? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Guess what? People still get gas at BP so obviously it will blow over, they did not go out of business.
How about what the EPA did in Colorado, or are you too much of a blind sheep to be aware of that catastrophe? 
The US market is relatively small for VW so even if they were to pull out of the US it would not even be close to the end of VW, honestly it would be marginal.
Toyota actually killed people, if you think that is not a bigger issue than cheating a test that a quarter of diesel consumers would end up doing themselves anyway. You're morals are ****ed.
Diesel is far from done here. Do you even know that VW's diesel market is extremely small compared to the rest of the US diesel market? Every American truck company has big diesel engines and the Japanese truck market is even expanding into Diesel territory. Don't tell me that you believe a little 2.0l TDI even if they are cheating emissions is cleaner than a 6.7l turbo diesel V8 or the Semi's that carry cargo across the states. 
Sure you make take a hit if you were to sell now but 3-6 months down the road prices will be back to normal. If you take a car to CarMax they're gonna rip you off either way and they have never liked German cars to begin with. I went car shopping there before to have them ridicule VW about 3 years ago claiming that any German car is great until about 75k miles and then try to tell me they fall apart after that. Which is completely untrue even my current VW has 132k and has never been in the shop since I've owned it.
GTI isn't even a diesel so that's a terrible example anyway.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

Please dazzle me with your facts, solid.


I'm waiting.


*crickets chirping*


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

americanstandardtele said:


> Think I'm an idiot? Wander down to Carmax and get a quote on your GTI or whatever, and get back to me. Check black book or edmunds in 3 months. Y'all can complain and bitch and moan and talk about fake moon landings all you want but that won't change the facts, or the ball that is rolling. We might be able to get a really good deal and a fantastic trade in on another VW because both VW and ourselves will have no choice!


Doesn't matter what I think you are. The fact is, in states that don't have to pass an annual inspection, these cars will sell like hotcakes. No thanks, in part, due to the fact that they are incredibly reliable vehicles, which get insanely high amounts of mileage. So if you live in a "clean" state, your statement has some validity. For other places, I'm looking forward to the sub-economy that is created in the wake of this scandal.

And yes, VW will bounce back. I'm ready to put my own money on it. Just waiting to hit rock bottom.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> Please dazzle me with your facts.
> 
> 
> I'm waiting.
> ...


LOL. Gets butthurt when someone comments that newspapers aren't the de facto bastions of ultimate truth. :laugh:


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

Not even slightly butthurt. Waiting for your evidence the Guardian is wrong. Here, let me adjust your tinfoil hat if the mind control rays are interferring with your cognitive ability.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> Not even slightly butthurt. Waiting for your evidence the Guardian is wrong. Here, let me adjust your tinfoil hat if the mind control rays are interferring with your cognitive ability.





pseudo-science article said:


> "Volkswagen’s rigging of emissions tests for 11m cars means they *may* be responsible for nearly 1m tonnes of air pollution every year, roughly the same as the UK’s combined emissions for all power stations, vehicles, industry and agriculture,_ a Guardian analysis _*suggests* "


Sniffing one's own farts *may* be the cure for cancer, _some unnammed scientist _in some unpublished report, *suggests*.

See what I just did there?


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## MotoTDI (Sep 25, 2015)

*Stop... Read... Get educated on existing state and federal law*

There are already laws on the books to deal with situations like this and we have state and federal agencies that can represent our interests without having to engage an attorney on an individual level.

When does act rise to Fraud or Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practice

VW has already admitted to deceiving customers by installing the emissions bypass device/ code. VW marketed this product as a clean diesel technology that was fuel efficient and environmentally sound. *THIS IS NOT IN DISPUTE*

*Current Law
*
_FRAUD: The Supreme Court has concluded that there are two types of fraud in a civil context: Actual and Constructive. The Court has determined that Active Fraud is the false representation of a material fact or, in the alternative, the concealment of a material fact. Moreover, the misrepresented material fact must be known to be false or made recklessly, without any knowledge of its truth or falsity. *A fact is considered “material” if, had it been known to the party, it would have influenced that party’s decision in making the contract at all. *_

Had VW had not been deceptive in it's marketing and sales practices and disclosed the use of a device to bypass emissions testing, I would not have entered into a contract to purchase my TDI. Many others would agree.

*Remedy*

Each state has laws on the books that allow businesses to sale goods in their state. Instead of running to a class action atty, contact your local state government agencies and demand that they not let VW do business in your state until they address this fraud by voiding the original contract and returning your money. 

Call the federal agencies and demand while they fine VW for their actions that they make VW buy back your car and apologize for marketing a car using deception, fraud, and material misrepresentation.

CONSUMER PROTECTION IN THE STATES
https://www.nclc.org/images/pdf/udap..._50_states.pdf


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

solid7 said:


> Sniffing one's own farts *may* be the cure for cancer, _some unnammed scientist _in some unpublished report, *suggests*.
> 
> See what I just did there?


Yes I did. Did you?

Get Fox news to run that now and its a more reasonable comparison.

Or keep hanging straightened coat hangers from your ceiling so the gubmint can't track you. Choice is, y'know, yours.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> Yes I did. Did you?
> 
> Get Fox news to run that now and its a more reasonable comparison.
> 
> Or keep hanging straightened coat hangers from your ceiling so the gubmint can't track you. Choice is, y'know, yours.


Way to deflect.

If someone wants to publish something, I'm all for it. But put your ****ing name on it, and own it. And then, make sure that you cite figures and sources. That way, those of us who don't just eat the cookie like good little disciples, can dissect your statements, and point out whether you're intellectually honest, or just pushing propaganda.

And stories without citations are very much in the camp of propaganda.


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## charlesm0153 (Sep 10, 2015)

For me, this all starts with VW's plan to become the number one seller of cars worldwide and to rapidly expand in the US. These should never be sole objectives for a quality manufacturer of cars. These are objectives of a business only. I know VW is a business but cars are not only a logical purchase, they are also an emotional purchase. You gotta keep the trust! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## GabelessToGabeTown (Mar 22, 2015)

Retr0 said:


> For those of you who have a hard time visualizing the scope of the damage, from the Guardian:


i get that pretty darn hefty... But can we get some actual data? The media has been spitballing numbers left and f***ing right. All we have heard was estimations and theories. I also read on the internet that Tupac, Michael Jackson, and Robin William are all on an island somewhere with an unlimited supply of ludes.


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## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*Here's What It May Cost To Fix The TDi Mess*

HERE'S WHAT IT MIGHT COST VW TO FIX THE DIESEL MESS
By Aaron Cole / TTAC / 9/26/15










In all reality, Volkswagen probably won’t pay $37,500 for each car that cheated its way through U.S. emissions standards, but the German automaker will probably pay thousands for each car to fit a device that would clean up their acts.

The presumed fix would come by retrofitting a Selective Catalytic Reduction (Adblue or urea) system although that wouldn’t be the only fix necessary. Researchers discovered that the Passat TDI that they tested, fitted with the SCR system, was 5 to 20 times over the NO limit — less than the 10 to 40 times by the lean NO filter cars, but still illegal.

The long list of items needed to fit models of the Volkswagen Golf, Jetta, Beetle and Audi A3 doesn’t include the engineering needed to retrofit the cars and the costs to crash test the models after the significant modifications. That’ll add hundreds of millions to the bottom line.

Our own Bozi Tatarevic provided his preliminary list of additions (retail prices) that would be needed for each car based on the systems included in the Passat TDI — which still didn’t pass:

• Cooler ($361)
• Aftertreatment Fuel Tank ($534)
• Dosing Valve ($240)
• DPFE ($105)
• Temperature Sensor ($171)
• EGR ($401)
• Catalyst ($688)
Total = $2,500
Labor = $1,000 est
TOTAL = $3,500 per car

Conservative Estimate: $3500 x 500,000 cars = $1,750,000,000.00 not including EPA fines, Attorney Fees, Mass Tort Settlements, Buy Backs, etc etc

Bozi points out that the urea tank most likely couldn’t be installed into the rear trunks due to the corrosive nature of the fluid. The secondary tanks would likely need to be installed under the car, next to a smaller, also-replaced, fuel tank. That would be an additional cost to Volkswagen (hundreds of dollars for each car) and further necessitate all new safety ratings.

The parts costs don’t take into account the hours of labor, which for a Jetta is 6-7 hours to change the diesel particulate filter alone. Such a substantial retrofit on their cars could take dozens of hours, incurring thousands in labor costs that Volkswagen would have to reimburse its dealers for. Labor rates, typically ~$100/hour, would likely be less for Volkswagen and the automaker would only reimburse dealers for the completion time detailed in the recall order.

Any sort of recall repair work and would need to be weighed against the cost for VW to buy back its own cars, which for a 2009 Jetta TDI, starts at about $7,000.

Link: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

And so it begins #activism #dieselgate. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-28/found-volkswagen-portland










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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

This is an open threat: If I find anyone putting anything on my car like that, I will beat them until they stop crying. Then I'm going to call the cops and say they attacked me.

And, if you knew me, you'd know it wouldn't be a stretch.



AJ


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## jaed.43725 (Jan 19, 2015)

^^^ You are damn right a whoopin would be heading their way. The EPA is lying about the whole thing and people are believing it. Like the moron that made that note. They do not realize that even a TDI that rolls a little coal is still way cleaner than any hybrid.


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## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

Cosworthhead said:


> And so it begins #activism #dieselgate. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-28/found-volkswagen-portland
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow... that's really messed up!  I saw a new Passat TDi on Saturday. The owner placed a makeshift sign along the top of his rear window that read *"I'M SORRY!"*


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## Puckster (Feb 26, 2011)

*stuff like this..*



VWRedux said:


> Wow... that's really messed up!  I saw a new Passat TDi on Saturday. The owner placed a makeshift sign along the top of his rear window that read *"I'M SORRY!"*


makes me want to drop the dpf, scr, tune and turn it into a F350 superduty "farm truck" diesel accelerating from a stop light for no good reason. 

Custom Tune expert to me.."Fuel efficiency or performance"?
Me..."Black smoke that ticks off everyone"..
CTE "Really"?
Me...."yes.. and make sure all the baby seals die too..."

kidding of course..


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*The second problem is the actual owners of the TDIs if they are forced to make changes*



Lee_K said:


> We need to see VW's official response, and then there will be months and months of back and forth between VW and the EPA before any monetary fines are enacted. VW is the biggest and most profitable car company on the planet and this will easily accommodated financially for them. The bigger question for me is the loyal TDI fan in the U.S. -- will they feel betrayed? Will the mandated recall cause their cars to drop in fuel mileage by 20 to 30%? That would certainly make a number of them angry and they might never consider the brand again. Europe is now rethinking diesel in general and this may be the tipping point for all German manugpfacturers to consider a deeper push into electric cars.





Mark O. said:


> If I had one of the affected Diesels, I would be very concerned. If these cars were close to meeting the EPA I think VW would have done so. The fact that they couldn't tells me the fix will really hurt performance. I'll be watching how this unfolds from the comfort of my TSI.


The second problem is the actual owners of the TDIs if they are forced to make changes. VW will pay for changes to retrofit hardware/software to meet EPA diesel emission standards. More than likely it will reduce the TDI power/torque and lower the mpg. Both the power reduction and the mileage reduction are likely to be significant and most TDI owners will not want to implement them. So then there will be some kind of fine structure or failure to pass annual emission testing and car tags won't be renewed and TDI owners who do not comply will be fined or worse. VW might implement a buy-back program for unsatisfied TDI owners, but don't count on it. It sucks to own a 2009-2016 VW diesel


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## planeguy (Feb 3, 2011)

Has me thinking that it is time to buy!


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## jaed.43725 (Jan 19, 2015)

midcow3 said:


> The second problem is the actual owners of the TDIs if they are forced to make changes. VW will pay for changes to retrofit hardware/software to meet EPA diesel emission standards. More than likely it will reduce the TDI power/torque and lower the mpg. Both the power reduction and the mileage reduction are likely to be significant and most TDI owners will not want to implement them. So then there will be some kind of fine structure or failure to pass annual emission testing and car tags won't be renewed and TDI owners who do not comply will be fined or worse. VW might implement a buy-back program for unsatisfied TDI owners, but don't count on it. It sucks to own a 2009-2016 VW diesel


It does not suck to own a 09-16 TDI. That is what the aftermarket is for. They fix everything. So just when you think your power is down you throw on a tune and its awesome again. You can delete all that garbage, tune it, and pass emissions with flying colors. Think outside the box.


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## jaed.43725 (Jan 19, 2015)

Sage said:


> Hi there, I am a journalist with Reuters and I am writing a story on how it will be hard for VW to get participation rates up in the recall because owners believe performance will be diminished, and how there are few enforcement levers. I'd love to talk with you if you're game. My email is [email protected]. Thank you so much - Alexandria


It wont be hard at all. VW diesels are already cleaner than a Prius. The issue here is that the EPA is lying about the whole thing.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

midcow3 said:


> More than likely it will reduce the TDI power/torque and lower the mpg. Both the power reduction and the mileage reduction are likely to be significant ...


How do you know this? In fact, that is model-dependent, and my guess is that for most models (especially the lighter-weight ones) power/ torque/ mpg reductions will be insignificant (less than 10% - while, e.g., Hyundai and Kia consistently advertised up to 20% more hp and better mileage in their cars for many years).

Driveability will be an issue - that is, the drive-pedal mapping may need to be re-mapped to give the same drive feel when the NO_x storage-cat is renewed. That takes a few weeks of time, and may be the biggest thing slowing things down, currently. Then there may be the heavier cars that may need Urea injection instead of the NO_x storage cat. Few if any of those, in the US. Finally, VW must address the longevity of the NO_x storage cat when burned more frequently.



midcow3 said:


> ...and most TDI owners will not want to implement them.


You are really high on conjectures, aren't you?


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

Better go out and buy a copy of the B8 RS4 and C7 RS6 Avants as product development might be a 'bit' stifled for some time to come.

'The company faces a fine of up to $18bn from US regulators as well as legal claims from customers and shareholders. Analysts at UBS have warned the scandal could eventually cost VW up to €35bn.' 

http://www.theguardian.com/business...offices-in-emissions-inquiry?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## ACASE007 (Oct 9, 2015)

*What is the best advice for a 2011 tdi owner*

Should I sit and wait should I sell the car and take a loss.... I have about 1.5 years left of payments if I do sell i would go back to a 5 year loan....


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## desmo9 (Mar 19, 2009)

The comparisons to Suburbans are a bit of a joke. Compare CO2 emissions of a Suburban to a TDI. And NOx emissions relative to full-size diesel trucks with more lax requirements. The idea that the TDIs caused fatalities is also a dubious argument. If that's where this heads, it's not a stretch that anyone electing to drive a larger truck or commutes longer distances is contributing to greater public harm. I'd get off of that soapbox, media.


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## mjbrox (Jun 19, 2002)

When VW is allowed to sell these cars again, they will offer insane deals on new ones. This will kill the resale value of the used ones. 

In short, I am looking to get a sweet deal on a TDI in a month or two


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## bisoned (Sep 19, 2013)

bottom line there was fraud involved. the EPA didn't catch the fraud. (the EPA failed too) in my mind, the only right thing to do is for the EPA to levy whatever fines there are, and reimburse the affected owners. there is a substantial loss in value. there should also be a buyback option. vw should shoulder whatever the loss is, and if that loss puts them out of business then so be it. they profited substantially through this fraud.

if this were a single car, or other product sold under false pretenses, any court would find in the favor of the buyer.

had to get that off my chest, lol....


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## DINAN E93 (Jan 16, 2012)

solid7 said:


> Doesn't matter what I think you are. The fact is, in states that don't have to pass an annual inspection, these cars will sell like hotcakes. No thanks, in part, due to the fact that they are incredibly reliable vehicles, which get insanely high amounts of mileage. So if you live in a "clean" state, your statement has some validity. For other places, I'm looking forward to the sub-economy that is created in the wake of this scandal.
> 
> And yes, VW will bounce back. I'm ready to put my own money on it. *Just waiting to hit rock bottom*.


Bottom is still falling - wait a little longer...

I happen to live in a state that does not require Emissions inspection to renew the registration for diesels....I'll refuse whatever recall VW issues on my Jetta TDi because I can...VW nor the EPA have any leverage to make me conform to any compliance modifications on my TDi car(s).

Regardless of VW's future in America, or globally - I have a vehicle that is fun to drive, has an incredibly long shelf life, get 48+ MPG with every tank...what's the down side? Diminished value only effects me if I am looking to sell or trade...


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## tyrntlzrdking (Feb 3, 2013)

Sage said:


> Hi there, I am a journalist with Reuters and I am writing a story on how it will be hard for VW to get participation rates up in the recall because owners believe performance will be diminished, and how there are few enforcement levers. I'd love to talk with you if you're game. My email is [email protected]. Thank you so much - Alexandria


Well clearly there is only one solution to this problem, and that is to impose martial law in states where recall compliance is not enforced.
Regular and widespread road-side traffic stops under armed supervision could ensure unhindered detection of non-corrected vehicles, which could then be summarily confiscated or liquidated depending on the preference of the state. 
Registered owners of VW vehicles could be subjected to interrogations at designated government facilities to properly gauge levels of compliance, and to find additional scofflaws which may be harbored or protected by owners. 
A public registry could be formed, requiring all VW owners to enter (under penalty of severe fines or incarceration), identifying themselves as an environmental risk. Citizens on the registry would then be obligated to inform all nearby neighbors of their status of a being a VW owner, so that others could keep a watchful eye out for any suspicious emissions that may be indicative of unresolved emissions software.

Additionally, VW owners may also be required under law to wear a bright, silver "VW" pin on their lapel at all times in public, ensuring that they can be questioned by proper law enforcement and environmental agents at any time. 
One might also consider the relocation and restriction of VW owners to specified living zones as a precaution to limit the environmental areas that would be impacted by higher emission vehicles.

Caloric rationing of VW owners could be implemented. Limited food intake would be less taxing to our agricultural system which may offset some of the pollution associated with owning a high-emission vehicle.

Checkpoints along roads would obviously be needed, where VW owners would be stopped and have their papers verified that they have not exceeded any kind of travel allotment that the state might have imposed while emissions have not been fixed.

Finally, children of VW owners would have to undergo frequent and rigorous medical examinations to ensure no metabolic abnormalities or genetic anomalies formed as a result of being in a high-emission vehicle. School administrators and teachers would be given special training to identify any potential "red-flag" or warning behaviors that may require the child to be extricated from a public school environment and placed into specialized government medical observation facilities.

Well, I know this list is far from comprehensive, but I hope it provides at least some practical solutions to ensuring our cars are up to EPA specifications.


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## mcseforsale (Jun 5, 2011)

You laugh, but the EPA is an out of control junk yard pitbull. Greenies are vicious if you don't subscribe to their particular zealotry. :screwy::what:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/10/epa-spends-millions-on-military-style-weapons-repo/ 

AJ


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## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

My love for VW has been strained to hate even before the TDI emissions debacle. FWIW I sent this e-mail to Michael Horn (CC to Robert Martell) at VWoA. I'm sure it went into their bitbucket but it needed to be said anyway.

I hope Ford is still as awesome 3 years from now (when the Jetta lease ends) as it has been recently.

---

Dear Mr. Horn:

I can only imagine the enormity of the problems you've inherited as the new CEO of Volkswagen of America, so I have attempted - with admittedly little success - to be brief. I applaud your stated goal of winning back your customers' trust in the wake of the TDI emissions issue. However, you should know that VW has betrayed my trust therein multiple times before now.

In 2001, I purchased my first VW - and, in fact, my first new car - a 2001 GTI (VIN ---). Later that year, I brought it in for its first service, at the now infamous Jim Ellis dealership in Marietta, GA. This became the fiasco chronicled at the link below. Before the trouble began, I contacted VW customer care, and nothing resulted. Throughout this episode, VW remained silent. After the dealership withdrew its own lawsuit and settled the affair with me directly, again VW did nothing, not even apologize. *VWoA did nothing to avert, assist with, or apologize for this entire affair.* Instead, VW hid behind a policy of avoiding dealership lawsuits, which is a cop-out. (Reference # 815013386: "Volkswagen of America is unable to be involved in any legal dispute between a driver and dealership.") This is betrayal #1.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?52126-Worst-service-ever!-Jim-Ellis-Marietta-GA-(long)

Betrayal #2 is the combination of the following, relating to the front bumper cover on my 2015 Jetta (VIN |||): it doesn’t fit the vehicle correctly, and being malformed due to a defect in design and or manufacturing, it can’t be made to fit correctly. The dealership attempted an “adjustment” which accomplished nothing; again, the bumper cover is not sized/shaped correctly to fit properly. I already brought this to VW’s attention, who first admitted it’s a design “flaw,” and later retracted this statement, instead claiming only that this issue cannot be addressed “at this time.” (Reference # 150553712 : "...the bumper was found to be as designed, and that no manufacturer’s defect was found.") This is a 2-part betrayal. The first is *false advertising*: according to Page 4 of the 2015 VW Jetta brochure, the vehicle exterior is constructed such that the body panels align seamlessly. The second is VW’s failure to address this properly. This is a *breech of the warranty agreement*, for according to Page 3 of the Warranty and Maintenance booklet, “This limited warranty covers any repair to correct a manufacturers defect in material or workmanship…”



















The current model of the Jetta represents an overall betrayal (this is the third) of we fans of Volkswagen products. It is completely absent of the design, quality, performance, comfort, features or real value that have been the hallmarks of all other present VW models, and nearly all past VW models. After 7500 trouble-filled miles with mine, I truly wish I had instead acquired a competitor's vehicle. A statement which, 15 years after my GTI, I never thought would be the case. Especially since, not only are the latest problems potentially impacting safety - the sound of sparks from the interior under engine load, an internally fogged headlight, and a skipping wiper arm - but they have also been reported to VW customer care without a response.










The emissions defeat device built into the “clean” diesel technology of my Jetta’s TDI powertrain is, of course, the final betrayal. Especially since, given the failure on VW's part that is the Jetta, its TDI engine was its one and only stellar feature, but no longer. This betrayal is of course worldwide, but it also affects me personally...

I have tried, with increasing difficulty, to remain faithful to the VW brand, for nearly 15 years now. Before the VW TDI emissions news, that faith was nearly broken. Now that I learn VW deliberately "cheated" government regulations for my Jetta's only notable asset, that faith is gone. My question to you, Mr. Horn, is: How will you earn back my loyalty back before I move on to another auto manufacturer?


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

'VW' chasing


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

buggyman said:


> :thumbup: https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=ambulance+chaser


🏼🏼


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

So if I understand this correctly, my TDI will get worse mpg's once it is 'fixed' and the EPA will be happy campers.. Awesome. #ObNoXious

Fyi here http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/vws-dieselgate-scandal-could-cost-87-billion-total


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

I still like the looks and interiors of the current Volkswagen line-up generally speaking. VW has badly damaged their reputation with this blatant act of corporate malfeasance. Will it affect my decision in the future as to purchasing another Volkswagen? Not sure at this point. For one, VW needs to fix this situation as quickly as possible for current TDI owners. When they do fix it, will it greatly affect performance or fuel economy? If it does, it will damage this segment of Volkswagen's business. Diesel has never been an easy sell in the US and Volkswagen had far more success than most; unfortunately by cheating. If it makes things right with current owners, that will do a lot to salvage it's reputation. I do think VW will need to focus it's efforts on fuel efficient gasoline engines and hybrids going forward though if they want to remain relevant.


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## LX289 (Jul 30, 2015)

Nope not gonna change a thing.
I love VW and their German Engineering.


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## Blatant Opportunist (Oct 19, 2015)

It didn't make me re-think buying a VW. It made buying a VW possible.

I was in the market for something new and relatively cheap, with hatchback utility, decent mileage, and hopefully wouldn't suck when it came time to enjoy driving it. Was looking hard at the Fit LX, which didn't bust my budget and ticked off most of the bullet points. The big downside was the lack of performance, but a 2500 lb car with a free-revving engine is at least a good start for driving fun...at least, that what I tried to tell myself as I stuck to my budget and stayed away from pricier, sportier options like the Mazda 3 and, yes, the Golf.

I had priced a Fit through Costco, spoken with my bank, and had worked out the budget numbers. I was within days of heading down to the dealership to make the deal when the scandal broke.

I flashed back to the fire-sale pricing that took place after the Audi 60 Minutes scandal. I was in college at the time and remember the newspaper ads offering $15,000 off...and this was 1986 money.

I figured, if nothing else, I owed it to myself to wait another month, and see what happens.

This is what happened:










I paid $200 more than I was going to pay for the base-model Fit. For a car with the chassis and engine of an A3, and multiple Car of the Year Awards. 

I'm sorry, but I simply couldn't pass that up. Hence, my chosen username. I try to maintain a sense of humor about it. I have even joked to my friends that the color of my new car is "Volkswagen Reputation Black".

The bottom line is this: VW will make this right and get their act together, or they will perish. As an automobile shopper, it's not my job to punish a corporation, it's my job to evaluate the existing market and get the best deal I can for my money. The angry diesel customers, lawyers, people scared away by the controversy, and governments will take care of the punishment part just fine, I'm sure.

If VW doesn't get its act together and perishes, or slags on offering substandard service to customers like myself, then I'll get what I deserve for taking a risk on a company on the outs. Having had the opportunity to take my new ride on a run through twisty coastal mountains this weekend, I'm really pretty OK with that risk right now, thanks.


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## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> My love for VW has been strained to hate even before the TDI emissions debacle. FWIW I sent this e-mail to Michael Horn (CC to Robert Martell) at VWoA. I'm sure it went into their bitbucket but it needed to be said anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh, George, I'm having a hard time seeing what's wrong with the bumper cover. The gaps seem to fit fine. I mean, nothing is perfect, even in a mass-produced economy car, but what's the beef here? I can understand the Jim Ellis thing and getting sued, but what am I looking at here that's wrong?


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## IvyvonEinzbern (Oct 20, 2015)

Hi this is my first post on this site. I joined to learn more about the Golf from other owners or even previous owners. I am looking around for a Golf in the very near future but of course, need to brush up on research. Having said that, I'm bitterly aware of the scandal but am just going to make sure my car is not a diesel. The standard gasoline engine delivers the same mileage as my MINI Cooper anyway so there's not going to be a significant loss of any kind for me at least.


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## Valdarious (Oct 19, 2015)

midcow3 said:


> The second problem is the actual owners of the TDIs if they are forced to make changes. VW will pay for changes to retrofit hardware/software to meet EPA diesel emission standards. More than likely it will reduce the TDI power/torque and lower the mpg. Both the power reduction and the mileage reduction are likely to be significant and most TDI owners will not want to implement them. So then there will be some kind of fine structure or failure to pass annual emission testing and car tags won't be renewed and TDI owners who do not comply will be fined or worse. VW might implement a buy-back program for unsatisfied TDI owners, but don't count on it. It sucks to own a 2009-2016 VW diesel


For me I think it mostly depends on if they control it federally or the let the states themselves handle it. I live in North Carolina and we do not have Diesel Emission tests. If I don't have to get mine fixed, I will not take it in. If I have to take it in, I will let them fix it then most likely just get an ecu tune and make it the way I want like I did with my Focus.


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## DINAN E93 (Jan 16, 2012)

Valdarious said:


> For me I think it mostly depends on if they control it federally or the let the states themselves handle it. I live in North Carolina and we do not have Diesel Emission tests. If I don't have to get mine fixed, I will not take it in. If I have to take it in, I will let them fix it then most likely just get an ecu tune and make it the way I want like I did with my Focus.


Agree - The dealer recall is voluntary, unless the state requires emissions inspection to register your car. Both my Jetta and Treg are tuned and DPF free....no way I'm letting the dealer touch either of them.


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## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

T5 Dave said:


> Uh, George, I'm having a hard time seeing what's wrong with the bumper cover. The gaps seem to fit fine. I mean, nothing is perfect, even in a mass-produced economy car, but what's the beef here? I can understand the Jim Ellis thing and getting sued, but what am I looking at here that's wrong?


Look in the first two pics. The bumper cover does not properly fit the vehicle, period.

No it's not a Lexus but it's not a Yugo either. Other mfr.'s in this price point can make their body panels fit properly - even my Mazda3, for all its flaws, didn't have this problem - so VW has no excuse.

Actually, no excuse is needed. Last time at the dealership, I had a look around the showroom and lot. VW's other models all have good body panel fitment and alignment. But the Mk-VI Jetta's all suck at it. So it's a model-specific issue, not a brand-specific one.


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## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> Look in the first two pics. The bumper cover does not properly fit the vehicle, period.
> 
> I had a look around the showroom and lot. VW's other models all have good body panel fitment and alignment. But the Mk-VI Jetta's all suck at it. So it's a model-specific issue, not a brand-specific one.


I still don't get it. There's a slight misalignment of the crease line between the bumper cover and the fender for the arch over the wheel well to the tune of a couple of mm, but the gap seems totally fine between the fender and the bumper cover elsewhere. Not something that I'd worry about, especially if it was there from day one when you bought it.

Unless there's something else.

Can you put a circle on the offending flaw? I'm really missing it . . .


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## vwRabbitvw (Apr 24, 2011)

Like I said in another thread I like my VW a lot but I don't think I'll buy another VW again. The company lied and committed fraud. This whole mess may even affect the gasoline cars if the VW brand gets damaged. The consumer may reject VW and our [gasoline] VWs may decrease in value. This problem may be much bigger than just the diesels.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

vwRabbitvw said:


> Like I said in another thread I like my VW a lot but I don't think I'll buy another VW again. The company lied and committed fraud. This whole mess may even affect the gasoline cars if the VW brand gets damaged. The consumer may reject VW and our [gasoline] VWs may decrease in value. This problem may be much bigger than just the diesels.


Companies don't lie. People lie.

Have you even asked yourself whether this was a high level official trying to perpetrate a fraud, or if it was a program manager, trying to meet a "failure is not an option" goal? Or even further... was it a technical person, who was given a mandate, and knew that a non-technical person wasn't capable of finding him out until after the pressure to meet his objective and deadline were past?

To say that there was no fraud committed would be intellectually dishonest. But the fact that societies, at large, have forgotten the concept of root cause analysis, certainly displays a growing lack of critical thinking processes and/or skills. Let's blame the individuals actually responsible, and make sure that they don't get the same chance to affect a company's brand, again - rather than just lamenting what may or may not come to pass. (sorry, can't do the whole doomsday thinking - I don't understand that level of negative thinking, that would allow someone to explore every possible "what if" scenario of misfortune) 

Today VW is in the news. Tomorrow it will be someone else. Let's get off the high horse. I'll reserve my judgement for how they handle the mess. For me, the crime is less consequential as the way that restitution is delivered.


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## lgt-tiguan (Oct 6, 2015)

vwRabbitvw said:


> Like I said in another thread I like my VW a lot but I don't think I'll buy another VW again. The company lied and committed fraud. This whole mess may even affect the gasoline cars if the VW brand gets damaged. The consumer may reject VW and our [gasoline] VWs may decrease in value. This problem may be much bigger than just the diesels.


Please find me a car company that has not lied to the public about flaws and safety issues in their cars. . I don't think one exists.


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## MotoTDI (Sep 25, 2015)

*Something to Consider!*


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## maoli067 (Oct 28, 2015)

I will think twice before purchasing another TDI.


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

VW will be hurting for a while, but they will prevail. Stock prices are starting to climb up again, albeit slowly. The fraud committed was indeed one of the stupidest things the company ever did, but it doesn't stop me from loving the brand. I've never been a diesel guy to begin with, and I just picked up a used 1.8T Passat after driving New Beetles for a few years. When 'Dieselgate' erupted, I admit to exploring other brands, but I just couldn't abandon my VW loyalty. I think it's very possible that some corporate trimming could take place and that models that don't sell so well could get the axe.


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## torquewagen (Nov 2, 2015)

I love my torquewagen. No regrets.


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## JCoons21 (Nov 2, 2015)

*2 VW owner and loving it!*

A great thread, and a great convo for sure. Lots to think about.

We have 2 non diesel VW's so are not directly effected by the "dieselgate" scandal but as VW owners, and most likely lifelong VW owners, we couldn't be happier with them.
A 2013 Passat (mine) and 2009 Tiguan (hers) have been our workhorses for years now. The Tiguan is most likely up for sale/trade come early 2016 as its time for a Touareg.

I have thought long and hard about how this effects me/us as vehicle owners and if this has defrauded the brand and resale... it might, and I guess when we begin to research the resale value of our 09 Tiggie we will find out.

In the mean time, a close eye will be kept on this, but the VW's will remain in our driveway!


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## JCoons21 (Nov 2, 2015)

*And now Touareg's?*

Oh boy, Porsche and VW Touareg's now might have issues?
We are/were going to replace our 09 Tiggie w/ a Touareg. I guess we wait and see.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

Tutorman04 said:


> At least your TDI won't burst into flames cause you turned on the windshield wipers and Kill you. Or how bout the Toyota remote mirror that bursts into flames and Kills you. I could do this all night...I can't wait to get my first Jetta TDI. I have a Jetta 1.8T 2004 now. Very few states have any testing for diesel cars. I live in illinois they do not test.
> If, and this is a big IF they figure a way to force you to have it fixed then go get a tune to un fix it. I don't see this as a problem. It's more of a opportunity. Won't be long I'll pick up a TDI dirt cheep. And I'll be Lovin it. :thumbup:


Do you really think the Toyota recall that you completely misrepresent is the same as the VW issue? I have zero love for Toyota's cars, but lets at least try to keep a reasonable perspective.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> Do you really think the Toyota recall that you completely misrepresent is the same as the VW issue? I have zero love for Toyota's cars, but lets at least try to keep a reasonable perspective.


If you could see past the hyperbole, the answer is still the same - 'tis better to be lied to about exhaust, than some other thing which is proven to be physically harmful. (or fatal)

I thought the perspective was reasonable, if not mildly humorous. If you could give that stick just a quarter turn, it might slide right out...


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

solid7 said:


> If you could see past the hyperbole, the answer is still the same - 'tis better to be lied to about exhaust, than some other thing which is proven to be physically harmful. (or fatal)
> 
> I thought the perspective was reasonable, if not mildly humorous. If you could give that stick just a quarter turn, it might slide right out...


So, other than one being a willing deception and the other being the usual risk mitigation that companies do because of errors or inconsistencies in the manufacturing process, these are completely the same.

I think people bringing up other manufacturers is pretty lame, especially when the situations are completely different.

Toyota didn't lie about the switch in their power window mechanism. This is risk mitigation for them. Volkswagen sold a product that they knew or should have known included a mechanism to circumvent the law.

Would you feel any different about this company if they designed their safety systems solely to pass static safety tests and did not consider the much more complex nature of real world accidents? I mean, maybe they could sweat out some weight and improve fuel economy if they did.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> Volkswagen sold a product that they knew or should have known included a mechanism to circumvent the law.


See, now right there, you totally didn't take my advice. Instead of attempting to remove it, you actually shoved the stick up, just a little further.

Burden of proof is now on YOU to defend that statement. Did VW actually KNOW, or did a technical employee pull a fast one over everyone, including his/her employer?

I've already asked this question dozens of times. Having owned a business myself, it is firmly engrained into me, that if you want to **** up your business, the best way to do so, is to employ people. Now, at what level did the deception occur? If you tell me that it's widespread, from the top down, that's a huge problem - because deception is endemic to not only the product, but the corporate philosophy. If you tell me that a tuning nerd wanted a quick and easy way to take the pressure off of an impossible task, then you get instant forgiveness from me. (because I've seen it go down like that too many times)

These are the inevitable growing pains in the evolution of any company that produces highly complex techinical goods.

I still say the Toyota comment was funny.


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## Retr0 (Aug 8, 2006)

solid7 said:


> See, now right there, you totally didn't take my advice. Instead of attempting to remove it, you actually shoved the stick up, just a little further.
> 
> Burden of proof is now on YOU to defend that statement. Did VW actually KNOW, or did a technical employee pull a fast one over everyone, including his/her employer?
> 
> ...


There are investigations ongoing into who knew what and when they knew it. And ultimately, it's already cost the then CEO his job, and rightly so. It's his responsibility to keep his underlings on-side.

To me, there is no difference between the scenarios you paint. If a manager sets an impossible goal, then it's on him when someone finds a way to cheat their way to it. To think VW is so disorganized that a lonewolf engineer could sink the entire program with a single malicious act is the height of naivity. To encourage a win-at-any-cost corporate culture is exactly why VW is in this mess. Now there is an actual comparison: VW's bull**** promises in bad faith are a bit similar to what got the US into the subprime mortgage crisis.

Say what you will about Toyota, they didn't follow VW's lead when it comes to malfeasance. Now if only they'd build a car that isn't boring.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Retr0 said:


> There are investigations ongoing into who knew what and when they knew it. And ultimately, it's already cost the then CEO his job, and rightly so. It's his responsibility to keep his underlings on-side.
> 
> To me, there is no difference between the scenarios you paint. If a manager sets an impossible goal, then it's on him when someone finds a way to cheat their way to it. To think VW is so disorganized that a lonewolf engineer could sink the entire program with a single malicious act is the height of naivity. To encourage a win-at-any-cost corporate culture is exactly why VW is in this mess. Now there is an actual comparison: VW's bull**** promises in bad faith are a bit similar to what got the US into the subprime mortgage crisis.
> 
> Say what you will about Toyota, they didn't follow VW's lead when it comes to malfeasance. Now if only they'd build a car that isn't boring.



Blah, blah, blah.

If you ever come out of your idealized world, you'll be mighty disappointed by what the rest of us deal with, everyday. (you may become suicidal, in fact)

I have worked for some of the largest corporations on the planet, in some very technical fields. If you think that there is any CEO who can micro-manage down to the worker ant level, you are completely deluded. Most CEOs are only business and finance people, and have no connection to the product, other than the name. They don't even know what they don't know. What today's modern CEO, project manager, etc, understand, is SCHEDULE. Even worse, these people are beholden to shareholders, who often, know even less about the product or the challenges of producing it. What they understand is MONEY. So immediately, we have a problem. And no automaker is exempt from this. 

How would it be on a manager who didn't set the impossible goal, to begin with? That is, to carry out the EPA mandate, which is already well into diminishing returns? How does a company get around that?

You are kicking against the pricks, but placing the blame in the wrong area. VW's problems are not unique, nor will they be the last. Some have been caught. Others will be caught. Still others may never be caught. But the same tactics, strategies, and even people, are recycled throughout industries, thereby spreading the poison through the veins of industry. I'm not sure what you for a living, but you very clearly do not understand the workings of corporations. If this were a mom-and-pop shop, it would be easy to place blame. But it's not.


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

Not so much the TDI NOx/EPA scandal...more so "_No further 'option' for choosing a standard (manual) transmission in any VW/Audi model after the 2015 model year_".


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## cubedfreek (Apr 13, 2010)

Nope. Heil Volkswagen!


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## zilli004 (Nov 20, 2015)

*Does my 2006 Jetta Tdi get compensated in Diesel suit?*

I own a 2006 Jetta Tdi and was wondering if there was any compensation on my car as well?
Now that diesel is getting a bad reputation....as well as VW.....noone/few people will want to purchase my car. 
I think I should get compensated for that no?

Anyone have any links of comments about this?


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

Fun times.. VW deserves everything that comes there way. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...g-audis-porsches-second-illegal-defeat-device


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## Pulaski53 (Aug 30, 2014)

So I guess it will only be a matter of time before we will hear that VW has been understating the nitrate levels in its currywurst.


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

It may interest some people that VW stock has climbed 30% over the past 2 weeks.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

fiftysomething said:


> It may interest some people that VW stock has climbed 30% over the past 2 weeks.


It sure does interest some of us.


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

I have always found this 'of interest' when reading discussions about autos and being green... The 'boats' that ship them. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

To quote the initial title of this thread.. 'Rethinking buying a VW?' http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-u-s-sales-plunge-25-amid-emissions-cheating-crisis-1448987540


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*What about when fine is extended to TDI owners that refuse the fix ?*

What about when fine is extended to TDI owners that refuse the fix ? These cars will still be poluting the air and eventually the EPA will catch on and begin fining the tDI owners that don't comply.

Get fined or reduce you mpg, your torque and your horsepower 

Now how is VW repalcement solgan coming "Now really clean diesel, slower, less mpg, but this time really green! We're not lying"


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

midcow3 said:


> What about when fine is extended to TDI owners that refuse the fix ? These cars will still be poluting the air and eventually the EPA will catch on and begin fining the tDI owners that don't comply.
> 
> Get fined or reduce you mpg, your torque and your horsepower
> 
> Now how is VW repalcement solgan coming "Now really clean diesel, slower, less mpg, but this time really green! We're not lying"


Nobody will have to fine the owners. In the USA, if you live in a state that doesn't care it won't matter. If you live in a state that requires an annual emissions inspection, you won't be able to register (i.e. drive) your TDI if it doesn't pass. 

-Eric


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*25% diesel sales drop*

http://autoweek.com/article/vw-dies...er&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive


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## rel7966 (Jul 24, 2012)

The only thing that has changed is that I now am aware of a bit of information about my TDI... nothing has changed it's still a reliable workhorse of a car.

VW is also only the first to be caught, all auto manufacturers do stuff like this.


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## weagle1856 (Aug 11, 2015)

Yeah I don't see VW selling diesel cars here til 2020. But I bet they won't even try anymore. The market isn't that great for them here and everyone will want electric GTE's and whatnot here.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*VW New Car Sales Nose Dives*

http://autoweek.com/article/vw-dies...er&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*So did you invest all your life savings and make 30%*



fiftysomething said:


> It may interest some people that VW stock has climbed 30% over the past 2 weeks.


So did you invest all your life savings and make 30% ?


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

No, but if I had bought shares at their bottom of about $95 a few weeks back, I could sell them today for $127.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Good investors don't make all their money in one or two fell swoops. They do it over time, with a series of smart investments. Missing out on that one was just school boy folly. It didn't get much positive feedback when I suggested it earlier, but that's a tidy little profit. Shame on everyone who had the means, and wasn't opportunistic. (especially if you criticised others) This is just the kind of transaction that investors look for.

Now, it's likely going to tank again. And it will likely rebound again. If you get a second chance, don't be such a naysayer the next time around.


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

I didn't have the means, I was just using the stock value to point out that VW isn't doomed like the naysayers claim.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

fiftysomething said:


> I didn't have the means, I was just using the stock value to point out that VW isn't doomed like the naysayers claim.


I don't know if it's doomed, or isn't - nobody can know that right now. I just know opportunity when I see it.


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

VW just secured 20 billion euro line of credit.. https://twitter.com/therealautoblog/status/673872191167967233


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## vwRabbitvw (Apr 24, 2011)

It's going to take Volkswagen a long period of time to get back on track. Brand image is so important and VW's is undoubtedly bruised right now. The fines will be a major setback on their aspirations of being the world's number one car company as it relates to units sold. VW will survive this crisis but it will be wounded for some time. Hopefully the fines that will be imposed on the company will not result in suspending R & D on some neat technology and neat cars. 

An electric Golf with at least a 300 mile range priced under $19,000 would turn the company around fast. :laugh: :laugh:


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

vwRabbitvw said:


> It's going to take Volkswagen a long period of time to get back on track. Brand image is so important and VW's is undoubtedly bruised right now. The fines will be a major setback on their aspirations of being the world's number one car company as it relates to units sold. VW will survive this crisis but it will be wounded for some time. Hopefully the fines that will be imposed on the company will not result in suspending R & D on some neat technology and neat cars.
> 
> An electric Golf with at least a 300 mile range priced priced under $19,000 would turn the company around fast. :laugh: :laugh:


I agree with all of this. I remember about 10-12 years back when VW 's sales tanked some 30% over a few years, particularly after the fanfare of the New Beetle wore off. About every third person in the Car Lounge was saying that VW would be leaving the US within 6 months....


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

vwRabbitvw said:


> Hopefully the fines that will be imposed on the company will not result in suspending R & D on some neat technology and neat cars.


They will not suspend R&D. Their R&D covers all of their product lines, not just the Audi or VW label. 

If they were to do so, they truly would be finished.


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

solid7 said:


> They will not suspend R&D. Their R&D covers all of their product lines, not just the Audi or VW label.
> 
> If they were to do so, they truly would be finished.


However, R & D heads of Audi and one other, Porsche I believe, have already hit the road.. Been fired, or pressured to leave.

Makes me wonder what products will look like in the next replacement cycle.

"Volkswagen’s internal probe has yet to reveal details about the scandal’s origins or who was involved. Meanwhile, the churn of German executives continues, with Ulrich Hackenberg leaving his post as Audi’s chief engineer last week after his reported suspension in the scandal’s wake."


http://www.automnews.com/?p=329096


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## jaed.43725 (Jan 19, 2015)

They can't find who's at fault because they are looking in the wrong place.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Cosworthhead said:


> However, R & D heads of Audi and one other, Porsche I believe, have already hit the road.. Been fired, or pressured to leave.
> 
> Makes me wonder what products will look like in the next replacement cycle.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I get it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with continuing R&D. They're just cleaning house. R&D is the life blood of any innovative industry. What I'm trying to say is, it's one of the heaviest expenditures (percentage wise) in a manufacturing company with an evolving product line. If you ever see a car company close down their R&D division, they've basically just told you that the whole product line is out of business. No company would ever send that signal to its investors, unless it was ACTUALLY going out of business.


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

jaed.43725 said:


> They can't find who's at fault because they are looking in the wrong place.


Because like I said several times earlier... Executives don't have the faintest clue about technical things. Just like you can't expect a technical person to go auditing coporate accounts, looking for signs of embezzlement. Kind of a no-brainer, if you ask me.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Cosworthhead said:


> However, R & D heads of Audi and one other, Porsche I believe, have already hit the road.. Been fired, or pressured to leave.
> 
> Makes me wonder what products will look like in the next replacement cycle...


The R&D output is not just from the top guy.


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

solid7 said:


> Yeah, I get it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with continuing R&D. They're just cleaning house. R&D is the life blood of any innovative industry. What I'm trying to say is, it's one of the heaviest expenditures (percentage wise) in a manufacturing company with an evolving product line. If you ever see a car company close down their R&D division, they've basically just told you that the whole product line is out of business. No company would ever send that signal to its investors, unless it was ACTUALLY going out of business.


I hear ya and agree 'bout lifeblood of any company being R&D. Im just wondering how much this will get hit along w the other cuts to include selling off brands etc cheers


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

Cosworthhead said:


> I hear ya and agree 'bout lifeblood of any company being R&D. Im just wondering how much this will get hit along w the other cuts to include selling off brands etc cheers


Who, knows... It may end up being a blessing in disguise. Like someone else said, if it kills off their attempts to make better diesel, it could force them even harder into the way forward, away from petrol. (which, at this point, is presumably, electric)


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

VW diesel civil suits to be heard in California | Automotive News 




remaining cases accusing VW of securities fraud to a separate judge — along with a case in Montana that says owners of VW vehicles should not be required to make payments on current loans.

Fun times


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Cosworthhead said:


> VW diesel civil suits to be heard in California | Automotive News
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Montana case sounds like an Ambulance Chaser because Montana doesn't inspect cars, much less check emissions. 

http://www.dmv.org/mt-montana/smog-check.php

My Brother-in-Law says that he would not buy a used diesel pickup in MT because they have all been chipped. From what he said, if it blows a black cloud of smoke when it takes off, it's been chipped. I have seen many black clouds behind pickups in UT, so the owners here must revert back to stock once a year to pass emissions. 

-Eric


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> The Montana case sounds like an Ambulance Chaser because Montana doesn't inspect cars, much less check emissions.
> 
> http://www.dmv.org/mt-montana/smog-check.php
> 
> ...


Any discussions on ECM software reflash mods to regain what most likely will be lower mpg's due to pending EPA mandate? 

In other news in France


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## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

I would still buy another TDI, and in fact WILL buy another one as soon
as I get rid of two cars. They are allowed to sell USED TDIs at the
VW dealer, just not certified. SO, once I cut down to my TDI and
Pickup, I am getting another used TDI.

I got my cards from the goodwill program activated today, and if I was
ready for another TDI, those cards would have been used towards a
down payment on a used 2011 Passat TDI today...


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

$5k coming your way tdi owners. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...sel-cheating-deal-to-pay-car-owners-welt-says


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## jaed.43725 (Jan 19, 2015)

The funny thing (not haha funny) is that its the EPA thats lying.


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## pknopp (Dec 28, 2011)

I have a 2012 TDI. Yes I would buy another VW. Yes, I will take VW's money.


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## SamIV (Aug 14, 2002)

We have a '10 TDI Sportwagon and a '15 GTI. I love them both. If the GTD had been available I'd have bought it in a hot minute over the GTI. Now though..... I asked my wife just yesterday if we should look at a Civic.

We've almost always owned a Honda and a VW. My lovely bride used to joke that we used her Hondas to pick my VWs at the shop. Very true. For a verrrry long time. We'll look to see the offer. If there was a buy-back and cash, I'd be all over it- and looking to see what sort of deal I could find on a new TDI Sportwagon. If only the Allroad would come with a TDI. A small, all wheel drive, diesel wagon would float my boat!


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## Farmertom390 (Aug 7, 2015)

I also plan to sell my 11 sportwagen back to VW as I don't think it will be fixable. I will be checking into a 15 or 16 tdi sport wagen if they happen to be selling them. I would imagine they will be offering really steep discounts to keep current tdi owners in a VW of some sort. So I'll look at a sports wagen or golf R other than that I'll put a 3rd Subaru in my driveway.


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## Meconlin (May 19, 2013)

pknopp said:


> I have a 2012 TDI. Yes I would buy another VW. Yes, I will take VW's money.


+1 

Need AWD by fall. Would love buyback deal and getting into a Golf R!


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## solid7 (Jun 25, 2009)

HAHAHA... What EPA/Diesel thing?

Did you hear that Prince died last week?


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## Alex W (Jan 10, 2001)

jaed.43725 said:


> The funny thing (not haha funny) is that its the EPA thats lying.


Lying about what?


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

I've never owned a TDI, but as a longtime VW guy, I remain loyal to the brand. The media is filled with biased journalists that are blowing this whole thing way out of proportion. Yes, VW cheated and it was a stupid thing to try. There were VW haters out there before "Dieselgate," but now, thanks to automotive writers that would obviously like nothing better than to see VWoA go down in flames, the haters have multiplied like an infestation of roaches. What's most disturbing are longtime VW owners themselves that have turned on the automaker. Go to the Car Lounge sometime. For starters, these idiots have been predicting VW's exit from the US ever since the fanfare of the New Beetle wore off in the early 2000s. Every time VW sales drop a few points, the Sky is Falling and their departure from this market is imminent. Then a model or two gets a refresh, sales go back up, and they shut up for awhile. BUT...as soon as those sales taper off by the slightest margin, VW is doomed again and can "do nothing right." 

Since the automaker is still selling nearly 100,000 more cars annually here than they were 10-12 years ago, even without diesels, it should be quite clear that these Doomsday Prophets are about as credible as some crazed preacher that claims the world will end next Tuesday. So, I strongly suggest, and with the subliminal help of journalists in search of sensationalism, that since the off-and-on sales drops over the years didn't spell VWoA's demise, they are still Hell-bent on seeing it happen, and what better way to plug that sentiment than to throw this scandal in our faces? 

If these people constantly chastise VW's every move and never see the positive side of things, I just have one question: Why the f*** are you still driving a Volkswagen? By all means, distance yourselves as far as possible from the brand and let the REAL enthusiasts enjoy them. That is all.


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## TDI57 (May 2, 2016)

fiftysomething said:


> I've never owned a TDI, but as a longtime VW guy, I remain loyal to the brand. The media is filled with biased journalists that are blowing this whole thing way out of proportion. Yes, VW cheated and it was a stupid thing to try. There were VW haters out there before "Dieselgate," but now, thanks to automotive writers that would obviously like nothing better than to see VWoA go down in flames, the haters have multiplied like an infestation of roaches. What's most disturbing are longtime VW owners themselves that have turned on the automaker. Go to the Car Lounge sometime. For starters, these idiots have been predicting VW's exit from the US ever since the fanfare of the New Beetle wore off in the early 2000s. Every time VW sales drop a few points, the Sky is Falling and their departure from this market is imminent. Then a model or two gets a refresh, sales go back up, and they shut up for awhile. BUT...as soon as those sales taper off by the slightest margin, VW is doomed again and can "do nothing right."
> 
> Since the automaker is still selling nearly 100,000 more cars annually here than they were 10-12 years ago, even without diesels, it should be quite clear that these Doomsday Prophets are about as credible as some crazed preacher that claims the world will end next Tuesday. So, I strongly suggest, and with the subliminal help of journalists in search of sensationalism, that since the off-and-on sales drops over the years didn't spell VWoA's demise, they are still Hell-bent on seeing it happen, and what better way to plug that sentiment than to throw this scandal in our faces?
> 
> If these people constantly chastise VW's every move and never see the positive side of things, I just have one question: Why the f*** are you still driving a Volkswagen? By all means, distance yourselves as far as possible from the brand and let the REAL enthusiasts enjoy them. That is all.


Very well put and agree with all you stated. Thanks for voicing the clear insight.


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## Sinrule (Sep 10, 2008)

I haven't really heard of too many people wishing for the ouster of the VWoA, but then again I haven't really looked.

I have been a VW guy for as long as I was able to drive, I'm young, I know, but I have always held true to VW and Audi. I've always respected honesty and transparency though...

So what if my TDI is putting out 40 times more emissions of a specific gas that has never affected me, anyone I know, or anyone I can find through searches for news articles online? That's not the issue to me.

At the end of the day the gravity of the situation as I see it is that I've been lied to. Not only have I been lied to once, but the company has taken steps to continue lying to mitigate the loss of additional billions of dollars in revenue and market standing. I suppose that's a logical step for a corporation of that size and what are the Germans if anything, but logical and precise? Is that not why we love their products? Engineering precision, quality, logic?

To me it was the art, emotion, and care put into each vehicle and power train. It's lost some of it's luster in my eyes, they don't sparkle the way they used to. Yes I plan on taking advantage of any compensation program VW comes up with for us. Doesn't mean I'll stop buying their products. Maybe I just won't buy their TDI's.

In my opinion though, I don't think any real Volkswagen fan should look at this situation and think "So what? What does it matter? Not to me! VW through and through!" It's not a marriage of life styles where it's "till death do us part", we are not only allowed to change our minds based on the information provided to us, but I think as real fans of their products, we are required to do so, if not to hold them accountable not to anyone else, but to us. There is a reason we love these vehicles, we should never forget that and VW should never compromise on that. So hold their feet to the fire, hold them accountable. There are consequences to our actions and our decisions.


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Well-written post. I understand the deceit issue, and as a huge VW fan (CL definition: fanboy, apologist) I too am disappointed in what they did. But I sincerely believe they have adequately acknowledged that they screwed up big time and are doing everything they can to regain consumer trust. I also believe that VW will be a better company once this debacle is behind them. However, try saying that in the CL and you'll be a lone voice. From now on, I'll just Google VW news and reach my own conclusions.


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## surfstar (Mar 13, 2016)

I bought my first VW BECAUSE of the scandal. Got into a TSI GSW for cheap! Wasn't on my radar otherwise.
They earned a new customer!


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## Tutorman04 (Jun 3, 2015)

Had to pick up a part at the VW Dealer and was talking about this to a sales guy. He showed me a fenced in lot in the back filled with 2015 TDI's ..(funny I read dealers, ALL of them shipped them all to a holding place,,NOT)
and he doesn't have enough of these cars to fill all the waiting list he has on his desk. 
He and alot of others are just waiting for this to be resolved , when they do they will be selling like hot cakes. I'm hoping to pick up a used one at a really good price. 
But once the fix comes in and it's not all that dramatic and people see the fix is relatively a minor thing they will become a hard to find item and the price will go up on used TDI's


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## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Tutorman04 said:


> Had to pick up a part at the VW Dealer and was talking about this to a sales guy. He showed me a fenced in lot in the back filled with 2015 TDI's ..(funny I read dealers, ALL of them shipped them all to a holding place,,NOT)
> and he doesn't have enough of these cars to fill all the waiting list he has on his desk.
> He and alot of others are just waiting for this to be resolved , when they do they will be selling like hot cakes. I'm hoping to pick up a used one at a really good price.
> But once the fix comes in and it's not all that dramatic and people see the fix is relatively a minor thing they will become a hard to find item and the price will go up on used TDI's


You can also buy a tuner, once fixed, flash it back or with a tune made before the scandal. 

I went to the dealer and mentioned the buy back, and money. The sales guy picked up a binder,
asked me my year. He said, $20,000 minus mileage was the buy back, and $6000.00 was the
pay-out.

He also said they aren't allowed to sell used ones either, there is a freeze on all 2009+ TDIs, used and
new. The only way you will get a used one is from a used car lot. I was previously told they can
sell used ones, just not "certified used." I was just told none at all this past Thursday.


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## architecht13 (Aug 1, 2016)

Not at all.

My 2008 Wolfsburg finally was beyond reasonable repair and I went in and bought a 2016 1.8 Sport. Sure, they lied and got caught, but I don't believe there isn't one auto manufacturer that hasn't. I love the brand and will stick with them.


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## PossumJr (Sep 9, 2014)

Not really. I can hardly imagine VW is alone in unethical behavior towards government regs and in turn its customers. They were just the ones who get caught. I'll have no problem buying a gas powered VW again, but honestly I wouldn't buy a new TDI VW or any new diesel car for that matter, simply because I reject to having to use DEF. Considering the US' population of diesel powered cars is so small I think only larger diesel fleet vehicles should be the EPA's focus on strict new regulations and emission standard's. Not that diesel passenger vehicles should be overlooked, just give them a small break.

Okay I'm done talking from my uneducated armchair, I'll hush now.


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

This guy has some interesting insights on dieselgate http://ericpetersautos.com/2016/07/20/epa-irs-business/


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## Cosworthhead (Feb 1, 2011)

In this thread, same author as above, but video version as he test drives '16 jetta http://ericpetersautos.com/2016/07/24/2016-vw-jetta/


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