# Fresh VRT - Working out the kinks



## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Scroll to the bold if you don't wanna read: 

Ok so i got my recently put together vr6 turbo running (obd2 mk3). Just trying to iron out some of the details before I feel comfortable driving it. My thread is here : http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5364190-Insan3-s-GTI-Build 

I think it's running rich, it smells of gas and I'm not totally sure when it's supposed to start building boost. It's a C2 30# tune. It's basically a modified kinetic stage 2 for those who are familiar. Few questions so I know I have this right. FYI there is NO COOLANT in the car, so I don't leave it running for very long. 

This is a poorly drawn, crude, almost embarrassing rendering of my vacuum line setup. All good? 









I'm also noticing some carbon buildup around coming from between the turbo and downpipe. Idle has significantly calmed down, but stays around 900RPM. 

*In Short* 

Are my vac lines good? 
Any other reasons the car would run rich? IAT installed, MAF should be fine, c2 30# tune with injectors. 

I just want to make sure the motor is good before I throw the front end on.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Assuming your ecu was reset it will take several minutes to both warn up and get out of warmup enrichment as well as adjust fuel trims.....longer than you can leave it run without coolant.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

vergessen wir es said:


> Assuming your ecu was reset it will take several minutes to both warn up and get out of warmup enrichment as well as adjust fuel trims.....longer than you can leave it run without coolant.


 I figured as much just wasn't totally sure, guess I can't hope for much when you run the car for less than 30 seconds at a time. All I did in regards to the ECU was leave it in accessory for about 10 minutes. 

I'll have to hook up the radiator to see if I can get it to go through a full warmup cycle. 

Any other thoughts?


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Wastegate goes to turbo or intercooler pipe before the throttle body... manifold works but over works the turbo at part throttle ...


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

PjS860ct said:


> Wastegate goes to turbo or intercooler pipe before the throttle body... manifold works but over works the turbo at part throttle ...


 Do you think this would cause an 'overboosting' problem the way mine is set up? I don't want to blow anything up, turbo has some shaft play if that means anything. PO of the wastegate and manifold said he ran the line from the manifold to the 'side port' on the wg (Tial 38mm), and the one on the top is open.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah...


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Did anyone mention that the Wastegate vac line doesn't go to the intake. 

Don't T the FPR. Just remove the WG line (& put it on the compressor side of the turbo) and plug the FPR in that spot. This way the BOV & FPR has it's own line.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Did anyone mention that the Wastegate vac line doesn't go to the intake.
> 
> Don't T the FPR. Just remove the WG line (& put it on the compressor side of the turbo) and plug the FPR in that spot. This way the BOV & FPR has it's own line.


 Nope, learning the turbo stuff as I go. The turbo doesn't have a vac fitting on it though? Do I have to make my own in a certain spot?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Nope, learning the turbo stuff as I go. The turbo doesn't have a vac fitting on it though? Do I have to make my own in a certain spot?


 You can tap the turbo housing or the boost tube nearest to the housing. The reason why you want the FPR on its own line is because you want it to have a solid signal. If the BOV line goes, it won't take the most important line which is the FPR. Are you using a boost controller?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> You can tap the turbo housing or the boost tube nearest to the housing. The reason why you want the FPR on its own line is because you want it to have a solid signal. If the BOV line goes, it won't take the most important line which is the FPR. Are you using a boost controller?


 No boost controller. Just the 6lb wastegate spring. 

I do have an extra port I'm not using the on intake that I'm not using...That may be better suited than the T fitting. 

Mainly I want to get the car to stop spewing black **** from the exhaust, which I assume is the cause of running rich, since it smells like gas, and make sure my vac lines are all good so I don't blow anything up.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> No boost controller. Just the 6lb wastegate spring.
> 
> I do have an extra port I'm not using the on intake that I'm not using...That may be better suited than the T fitting.
> 
> Mainly I want to get the car to stop spewing black **** from the exhaust, which I assume is the cause of running rich, since it smells like gas, and make sure my vac lines are all good so I don't blow anything up.


 Then you should have a vac line from the lower port on the WG to the comp. side of the turbo. The top port on the WG stays open. 

I didn't notice if you mentioned it but do you have a wideband gauge? There's no real way of knowing how rich you really are. What bar FPR do you have?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

No wideband yet. I do have a narrowband I haven't hooked up yet. I'm hoping it's just because the car hasn't done a full warmup cycle to adjust the fuel? 

3.0bar fpr


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

if you can afford a turbo vr, you can afford a wideband. Ive been saying this since 2003.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

cabzilla said:


> if you can afford a turbo vr, you can afford a wideband. Ive been saying this since 2003.


 I totally agree with the old timer above... 

Without a w/b, everything would be a guess. Without knowing exactly where your a/f's are at during idle & throughout the rev, we can't say what it is. The level of rich/lean can tell us alot. It could look like its running rich but actually be leaned out. Narrowband has no place in a turbo application (unless you're using it via standalone for datalogging purposes). 


FYI, my car does the same when its cold. It runs at 13 till it warms up. Then it drops to 14.7 It also sputters a bit. It's the nature of the software. As long as your a/f's are within spec & its running fine when warm, you're good. My a/f's are spot on. Both at idle & throughout the rev. 

Also, if you're using the old oxygen sensor, swap in a new one. You want your ECU to get a fresh signal. It's a do or die thing but every bit counts.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I totally agree with the old timer above...
> 
> Without a w/b, everything would be a guess. Without knowing exactly where your a/f's are at during idle & throughout the rev, we can't say what it is. The level of rich/lean can tell us alot. It could look like its running rich but actually be leaned out. Narrowband has no place in a turbo application (unless you're using it via standalone for datalogging purposes).
> 
> ...


 Ok so this is pretty much leaning towards my theory of needing to let the car warm up before making any further conclusions. I had my narrowband WAY before I decided to go turbo, and figured something was better than nothing. I was also between jobs when I finally got the motor started, so I was trying to make things work with what I had. 

My new job starts this week, so I can get the other stuff I need come payday. 

I will absolutely be getting a wideband (recommendations?), just haven't gotten there yet, and the 02 sensor I have in there was new about a two years ago, and I haven't had any problems with it. Widebands come with the necessary 02 sensor correct? Might as well kill two birds with one stone..... 

Still learning the ins and outs on the turbo stuff. Awesome help so far :heart: 

Doesn't VAG COM read the fuel trims? I have the 'lite' version...


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

VAG-com only will give you a narrowband reading. Narrowband is just that..narrow. If your car dips down to say 10.5, the narrowband won't go that far down. Same if it were rich as it doesn't go as high. IIRC, n/b measures between 12-16 while w/b measures 10-20. 

As far as which one to get, i would do some reasearch. There are alot of good ones on the market. Its just a matter of finding the one that suits you. It took me a month to find the right w/b. I went with a Innovate MTX-L. My first choice was a PLX DM600 but i got the MTX-L for a great deal. I had a cheap GloShift w/b gauge before that which worked fine. I just needed more features then it had. 


I hear you on trying to make what you had work. It happens to most of us. I was at that point in my build except i got into a bad 4 wheeler accident which put me outta work (and ultimately ended my career). 

What plugs are you running & @ what gap?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah I've been reading up on a few. I was looking at the AEM UEGO w/b or the Zeitronics Zt-2 setup - IDK If i want an LCD screen just hanging out in my car though. I'll keep researching. 

Sucks about the accident :thumbdown: 

I'm running NGK BKR7E's at whatever gap they came with, so I think it's .032


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

Like previous people said wastegate to turbo fitting not to manifold. Aem Uego is great thats what im running no complaints i wouldnt drive the car until having a wideband it can save you some headaches you dont want to deal with.


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

Also that gap is to large you want to be at .21 .22 depending what your car likes better


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

JoHnsVrT said:


> Like previous people said wastegate to turbo fitting not to manifold. Aem Uego is great thats what im running no complaints i wouldnt drive the car until having a wideband it can save you some headaches you dont want to deal with.





JoHnsVrT said:


> Also that gap is to large you want to be at .21 .22 depending what your car likes better


Yeah I guess I'll have to make my own fitting somewhere, because the PO had the WG hooked up to the manifold...What issues would I run into by leaving it on the manifold? Someone above said it would work but 'overwork' the turbo?

I'll have to take the plugs out and gap them, didn't know I had to do that when the plugs were recommended to me.


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## mike minnillo (Sep 23, 2007)

This is how I have my vacuum stuff routed.










the issue referred to about "overworking" the turbo is pretty simple. through the length of piping going from the turbo, through the intercooler, and to the throttle body, its a given that there will be some boost pressure that is lost. typically, its a small amount, maybe 1 or 2 psi. so, while your wastegate spring will need 6 psi to open, to make 6 psi at the manifold, your turbo may have to actually make 7 or 8 psi. also, its best to have as direct of a route as possible between the compressor and the WG to alleviate any issues with lag between the turbo and the manifold.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Awesome, that's extremely helpful. I was thinking about getting myself a vacuum block to 'organize' things a bit more down the road. Appreciate the diagram :thumbup::thumbup:

I don't have a boost controller, just the wastegate. I have a bunch of extra vac fittings laying around I can probably fit somewhere.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

mike minnillo said:


> This is how I have my vacuum stuff routed.
> 
> http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/mikeminnillo/vacuumsetup.jpg


I also use a vacuum block. only difference to yours is my FPR goes to the intake & i'm using the top port on my WG....and no evap.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I also use a vacuum block. only difference to yours is my FPR goes to the intake & i'm using the top port on my WG....and no evap.


Do you have a cel for your evap? I want all the **** out of my way if I can do it without a CEL. And I thought the top port of the WG is supposed to be vented or recirculated somewhere?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Well I finally got everything buttoned up and running.  


But my brake pedal falls right to the floor when I hit them, and the car almost stalls out for lack of vaccum. I bled them and there is NO air the lines. Master cylinder was fine before I took the car apart, so it makes me think it's a vaccum thing, but the only line I see involving the brakes is the one going to the brake booster, which is attached. 

Any ideas?


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Well I finally got everything buttoned up and running.
> 
> 
> But my brake pedal falls right to the floor when I hit them, and the car almost stalls out for lack of vaccum. I bled them and there is NO air the lines. Master cylinder was fine before I took the car apart, so it makes me think it's a vaccum thing, but the only line I see involving the brakes is the one going to the brake booster, which is attached.
> ...


 If you used a soft line to the brake booster; it may be collapsing on you. I had this happen on a high speed run in my 1.8t after I rerouted/deleted a bunch of schit. I had to hit the shoulder on the highway to avoid rearending another motorist


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

It's the OEM ends to the booster (hard line) everything else is just regular rubber hose


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> It's the OEM ends to the booster (hard line) everything else is just regular rubber hose


 So you cut the OEM hard line, and clamped regular rubber hose to it? If so.. Thats your problem. If not you have a HUGE vacuum leak somewhere else..


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> So you cut the OEM hard line, and clamped regular rubber hose to it? If so.. Thats your problem. If not you have a HUGE vacuum leak somewhere else..


 I didn't cut anything. It uses the OEM hardline to attach to the booster, with the check valve on it, and then it goes to a rubber hose and into the intake manifold. I had to do it this way because I converted to a short runner. The intake and the hose were given to me by the PO and he never had any problems with it. 

It doesn't matter if the car is on or off they feel the same so I'm starting to think vacuum is not the issue, but idk.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

I also don't think I have a vac leak 1. because everything is hooked up and 2. because my gauge says so.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> I didn't cut anything. It uses the OEM hardline to attach to the booster, with the check valve on it, and then it goes to a rubber hose and into the intake manifold. I had to do it this way because I converted to a short runner. The intake and the hose were given to me by the PO and he never had any problems with it.
> 
> It doesn't matter if the car is on or off they feel the same so I'm starting to think vacuum is not the issue, but idk.


 The rubber hose is collapsing.. trust me, I didn't think it was possible either. Use a firmer piece of hose from the hardline to the intake manifold, and make sure the check valve(s) are installed in the correct orientation. :thumbup:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

If that is when the engine is warm, you have a small leak. It should read 20hg when warm....unless you're running a cam. Brakes have nothing to do with your vacuum line.....unless you forgot to install the rubber gasket on the back of the brake booster. MC's can go just by letting it sit out with no fluid. 

ftw, i did the samething, using rubber line on the OEM plug (that goes in the brake booster) and i've no problems.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> If that is when the engine is warm, you have a small leak. It should read 20hg when warm....unless you're running a cam. Brakes have nothing to do with your vacuum line.....unless you forgot to install the rubber gasket on the back of the brake booster. MC's can go just by letting it sit out with no fluid.
> 
> ftw, i did the samething, using rubber line on the OEM plug (that goes in the brake booster) and i've no problems.


 Then why did I lose my brakes when the line was collapsing on my car? 

After the incident I had; you could physically see the line collapse under vacuum, and the brake pedal got hard as a rock; you couldn't push it in.

Your wrong on this one dreadz. Im nit speculating; I've EXPERIENCED IT FIRST HAND


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I understand what you're saying but you're not understanding what he's saying......if that makes sense. :laugh: You're right though, if he had used the stock plastic line, it would've collapsed. 

He remove the hardline from the plastic 90* plug that goes into the BB hole & replaced it with a rubber hose. In my case i used fuel inj. hose. 

Edit: Here you can see my hose just below the main plug. That goes from BB to intake with a T going to the vac port (which feeds the EBC, Gauge & w/m)


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I understand what you're saying but you're not understanding what he's saying......if that makes sense. :laugh: You're right though, if he had used the stock plastic line, it would've collapsed.
> 
> He remove the hardline from the plastic 90* plug that goes into the BB hole & replaced it with a rubber hose. In my case i used fuel inj. hose.


 I get it dude; as I did the same thing as him. I used a piece of hose that was too flimsy, I later replaced it with a piece of fuel line like you used, and all was well.:thumbup:

There's not too many things it can be; assuming that it worked before


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> If that is when the engine is warm, you have a small leak. It should read 20hg when warm....unless you're running a cam. Brakes have nothing to do with your vacuum line.....unless you forgot to install the rubber gasket on the back of the brake booster. MC's can go just by letting it sit out with no fluid.
> 
> ftw, i did the samething, using rubber line on the OEM plug (that goes in the brake booster) and i've no problems.


 Yeah the rubber line is fuel line, it's not cheap crap and I physically do not see it collapsing. That was when the engine was 'almost' fully warmed up, stock cam. You say brakes have nothing to do with the vacuum line, but that's the whole point of the brake booster no? 

The only thing left to keep pressure at the brakes to engage them is the MC, so I guess I need to replace mine. It was perfectly fine before I took the car apart....but there was a good 7 months before it was used again. It also doesn't matter whether the car is on or off, pedal does the same exact thing, so vacuum must not be the issue. 



dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> I get it dude; as I did the same thing as him. I used a piece of hose that was too flimsy, I later replaced it with a piece of fuel line like you used, and all was well.:thumbup:
> 
> There's not too many things it can be; assuming that it worked before


 The intake manifold and line were purchased from someone who had it on their running vrt. I am ruling out the line. I've checked it under pressure, removed it many times, checked for leaks, check valves are in the right spot, so I'm dead on there. 

My MC worked 7 months ago without a hiccup, and the only thing I touched on the brakes during the build was replacing the front calipers and re-bleeding them. Now --> pedal falls right down and I KNOW I bled the air out of them because I saw the fresh blue fluid come out.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Well I replaced the master cylinder, bled it, and bled the rear brakes (I did the front prior) and the pedal feels exactly the same. Gonna try and re-bleed the fronts again tomorrow. 

Running out of ideas..........:banghead:


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Slave cylinder perhaps?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Slave cylinder perhaps?


 How is that possible? My clutch works perfectly fine....


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> How is that possible? My clutch works perfectly fine....


 By that definition; it couldn't be the master cylinder either right? Haha! Just throwing schit at the wall buddy.:beer:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> By that definition; it couldn't be the master cylinder either right? Haha! Just throwing schit at the wall buddy.:beer:


 Well, exactly. This master feels exactly the same as my other one. I wanted to avoid any other possibilities so I replaced it anyway. But now idk what else to do. Pedal builds pressure if you pump the brakes, but once you stop it can be pushed to the floor right away. 

Guess I can try and bleed all 4 corners again maybe there's an air pocket somewhere. But this is baffling.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Are you using a power bleeder? If not; you might want to try that. I had an issue with my Audi A4; where I couldn't get rid of a hidden air pocket. Power bleeder solved it. G/L


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Are you using a power bleeder? If not; you might want to try that. I had an issue with my Audi A4; where I couldn't get rid of a hidden air pocket. Power bleeder solved it. G/L


 I don't have a power bleeder...been doing it one at a time with a buddy.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> I don't have a power bleeder...been doing it one at a time with a buddy.


 Worth a shot at this point. They're relatively cheap, and nice to have; even if it doesn't solve it.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Worth a shot at this point. They're relatively cheap, and nice to have; even if it doesn't solve it.


 Just ordered one. Hopefully it gives me some results..... 

More power with less brakes is not what I had in mind


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Had the brake calipers on the wrong side. 



nothing further here........................................ 

LOL woops. Brakes work again.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Had the brake calipers on the wrong side.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:


 :beer: 

So now that that's out of the way....I'm noticing that when I start the car, it will shut right off and the battery light turns on. If I tap the gas once it turns over it stays on by itself, but idle's super rough. So bad that I can hear the chains (which are brand new and installed correctly). While driving the car acts fine, but idle is terrible. 

I noticed this battery thing AFTER I installed the gauges, so maybe that's where I have a problem, I grounded it under the dashboard on the metal shield..wire wheeled it to clean metal... 

I think maybe I lost a vac line somewhere which is causing the rough idle...just my guesses. I'll be working on it once I get back from school today. 

Other ideas? :heart: the FI forum


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> ftw, i did the samething, using rubber line on the OEM plug (that goes in the brake booster) and i've no problems.


 same.... I used rubber fuel hose. No problems. 



dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Are you using a power bleeder? If not; you might want to try that. I had an issue with my Audi A4; where I couldn't get rid of a hidden air pocket. Power bleeder solved it. G/L


 ^ and this


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> :beer:
> 
> So now that that's out of the way....I'm noticing that when I start the car, it will shut right off and the battery light turns on. If I tap the gas once it turns over it stays on by itself, but idle's super rough. So bad that I can hear the chains (which are brand new and installed correctly). While driving the car acts fine, but idle is terrible.
> 
> ...


 Pressure test your intake tract. Even pinhole leaks can cause issues


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Turns out the car was misfiring...silly MSD  

So that's fixed now, but I noticed on may way home today that the vac line for the wastegate popped off...which in turn pushed off the BOV line and FPR line off the manifold. When the car is on the wastegate line just goes flat, like a pancake. 

It's been running super tremendously up till the last few hours, so I think something just got wedged in there and pinched the line. Tomorrow will tell. I'll listen to idea's in the meantime.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah that vac line was junk. Replaced it with a beefier line from work and so far so good.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

You got your WG vac line connected to the BOV & FPR?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> You got your WG vac line connected to the BOV & FPR?


Same source (intake), wastegate has its own line....my turbo doesn't have a spot for a vac line


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Your WG signal needs to come from the closes spot near (or on) the turbo. WG signal needs to be pre TB. I don't agree with that vac diagram either. BoV & FPR needs to go straight to the intake & the vac port should be T'd off the brake booster line. I only run accessories to the vac port. boost gauge, boost controller sig, w/m signal. 


There's a kit that you can tap a silicone connector for a signal. Your WG reaction must suck. I dunno how its getting a signal with the TB closed as it needs to read boost pressure. Better hope you didn't blow the diaphragm.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Your WG signal needs to come from the closes spot near (or on) the turbo. WG signal needs to be pre TB. I don't agree with that vac diagram either. BoV & FPR needs to go straight to the intake & the vac port should be T'd off the brake booster line. I only run accessories to the vac port. boost gauge, boost controller sig, w/m signal.
> 
> 
> There's a kit that you can tap a silicone connector for a signal. Your WG reaction must suck. I dunno how its getting a signal with the TB closed as it needs to read boost pressure. Better hope you didn't blow the diaphragm.


Wait wait so your boost gauge is hooked up to your brake booster line? Can I add a 'T' to that little solenoid on the line as a source? The bov and fpr are in my intake, each with their own line, along with the wastegate on it's own line. 

Should I drill and tap a port somewhere near the turbo for the wastegate, why wouldn't the turbo have a spot on it if that's where the wastegate line is supposed to go?


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Your WG signal needs to come from the closes spot near (or on) the turbo. WG signal needs to be pre TB. I don't agree with that vac diagram either. BoV & FPR needs to go straight to the intake & the vac port should be T'd off the brake booster line. I only run accessories to the vac port. boost gauge, boost controller sig, w/m signal.
> 
> 
> There's a kit that you can tap a silicone connector for a signal. Your WG reaction must suck. I dunno how its getting a signal with the TB closed as it needs to read boost pressure. Better hope you didn't blow the diaphragm.


I'd think the diaphragm can handle it (mine did for a long time) problem is that vac sourced wg's are only good for wot, partial throttle boosting is what really sucks, it'll over speed the **** out of the compressor and cause nice surge dumps. Vac will also slam the gate closed when you let off causing another surge as the dv/bov reaction time isnt any faster than the gate and the turbine will be spinning ungated again.

Correct me if Im wrong but Ive experienced this first hand.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Ok so walk me through this here so I can fix the vac lines and not break anything.

*Sourced from intake manifold*
- BOV
- FPR
- Brake Booster + boost gauge

*Sourced elsewhere*
- Wastegate

Since my turbo doesn't have a spot for a vac line, do I tap one of the pipes coming off the turbo?


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Ok so walk me through this here so I can fix the vac lines and not break anything.
> 
> *Sourced from intake manifold*
> - BOV
> ...


you can drill / tap the cold side on the turbo, or use a silicone tap (pre-throttle body - either just before the turbo or just before the TB) for the WG.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

The closer the WG signal is to the turbo, the quicker it reacts. If you tap near the TB you'll end up with a slight delay. Mine is tapped on the comp. housing just like that (above)


It's hard to see but just below the cam sensor you can see my 42DD vac port. I just used the large T that came with it & used some rubber fuel inj. line & ran it from the brake booster to the intake. Again, the vac port only runs the accessories. I have 3 vac ports on my intake and one is for the FPR, BOV, & brake booster.









I ran the WG to turbo vac line straight along the back of the block (With a high temp heat shield covering it). I T'd that line, along with the top port of the WG for my boost controller signal.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah I don't have a vac block like that, is that where your boost gauge is?...I just don't wanna blow anything up. I think I'm gonna tap the turbo for the wastegate line.

What I'm also noticing is that whenever I get out of boost, the idle bounces pretty bad, and then evens out. Only after hitting boost, if I drive 'normally' then there's no problem.

Damn vac lines.


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## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> What I'm also noticing is that whenever I get out of boost, the idle bounces pretty bad, and then evens out. Only after hitting boost, if I drive 'normally' then there's no problem.
> 
> Damn vac lines.


im having the same problem my idle will bounce really bad coming off a hard pull sometimes stalling.

stock mk3 cast manifold:
FPR has it's own source from the manifold
WG & DV are sourcing from right behind the TB
boost gauge is off a nipple on the brake booster line


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

12V_VR said:


> im having the same problem my idle will bounce really bad coming off a hard pull sometimes stalling.


Yeah I took it for good hour drive yesterday and it runs like a champ, unless I get on it a bit, coming down from higher rpm's results in super bouncy idle and sometime stalling out.

If I drive it 'normally', not a single problem.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Yeah I took it for good hour drive yesterday and it runs like a champ, unless I get on it a bit, coming down from higher rpm's results in super bouncy idle and sometime stalling out.
> 
> If I drive it 'normally', not a single problem.


 Still having the same problem here, and it runs rich when I get on it (I can smell the gas and my narrowband pins itself all the way to 'rich'...and yes I know I need a wideband..I'm getting there). 

Would a leak in the intake cause these weird idle / coming off wot idle bouncing (sometimes stalling) / running rich problems? 

Also my turbo makes a whining noise almost like a supercharger when in boost now, so I assume my shaft play got pretty bad because it doesn't make good power anymore, so I ordered a better one :laugh:.........and this one actually has a vac port on the cold side of the turbo, which I will use for wastegate.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

You CANNOT use a narrowband. I wouldn't even trust the readings. 

What plugs are you using & what are they gapped at?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> You CANNOT use a narrowband. I wouldn't even trust the readings.
> 
> What plugs are you using & what are they gapped at?


 ngk bkr7e's...at whatever gap they came with so I guess .032


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah you actually asked me that before Dreadz lol. Someone else recommended .22 or .21 in this thread? Might be my next move but something else still isn't right...


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Take them out & close the gap to about .26. The pressure could be blowing the spark out. My plugs (The same ones...) are gapped at .24


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Take them out & close the gap to about .026. The pressure could be blowing the spark out. My plugs (The same ones...) are gapped at .024


Fixed that for ya duder


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Fixed that for ya duder


thank you....even though it took me 5 min. just to figure out what you changed :laugh:


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> thank you....even though it took me 5 min. just to figure out what you changed :laugh:


LOL! I was gonna bold it, but meh. FWIW some 1.8t guys are changing over to GM ls coils for a more powerful spark, wider plug gap, and smoother idle, etc. 

Gotta change the stock dwell in the ecu to gain full benefits tho.


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## mike minnillo (Sep 23, 2007)

Here's another idea, and actually a couple issues that I faced too. First, is your bov/dv venting to atmosphere or recirculated? These maf based cars like to be recirculated back in the intake after the Max, but before the Turbo. Also, what size maf housing do you have? I'm not sure about the 30# software that you have, but I know that a lot of the c2 software calls for a 4" housing. Just some food for thought.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Non recirc BOV wouldn't cause the issues he's having. My car is not recirc & i rarely have issues.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

mike minnillo said:


> Here's another idea, and actually a couple issues that I faced too. First, is your bov/dv venting to atmosphere or recirculated? These maf based cars like to be recirculated back in the intake after the Max, but before the Turbo. Also, what size maf housing do you have? I'm not sure about the 30# software that you have, but I know that a lot of the c2 software calls for a 4" housing. Just some food for thought.


BOV is recirculating...I think. I have a vac line going from the top of the bov back into the intake...I have a 4" MAF.



Capt.Dreadz said:


> Non recirc BOV wouldn't cause the issues he's having. My car is not recirc & i rarely have issues.


Ok I'm gonna regap the plugs tomorrow hopefully and come back with results. :beer: Would a leak in the intake cause the issues I'm having? THE ONLY possible leak I can think of is the IAT in the back of my manifold doesn't sit tight, I think the threads are f'd up...my CEL is on for 'reading too high' or something like that from the IAT...


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> THE ONLY possible leak I can think of is the IAT in the back of my manifold doesn't sit tight, I think the threads are f'd up...my CEL is on for 'reading too high' or something like that from the IAT...


Usually the answers we're looking for are right in front of us and we already know, but for some reason we over think it and move on to try and fix something else.

I'd start with what you know. If it isnt right fix it!


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

masterqaz said:


> Usually the answers we're looking for are right in front of us and we already know, but for some reason we over think it and move on to try and fix something else.
> 
> I'd start with what you know. If it isnt right fix it!


True, I do over think issues sometimes and usually it's the dumbest thing ever, but it'd rather be cautious and ask first in an area I'm not familiar with (forced induction). I'll post an update tomorrow.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Regapped all the plugs to about .025. Idle smoothed a bit I guess, but I'm still having the same issue under throttle and when it first starts. Idle is super crappy, almost like the motor is about to die (I hear like a quick "SHACK" I think is coming from the passenger side when the idle is bogging). 

When coming out of throttle, idle bounces and then it dies and the battery light turns on. I'm thinking a vac leak, but I have to take my SRI off to inspect it, and I just put a fresh gasket on there...not sure if I can get away with re-using it or once it's sealed that's it...

:banghead:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

This was when i was test fitting the front end. You can see the BOV...if that matters. The vac line isn't routed through there anymore FYI...so it's not pinched.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Timing off maybe? Did you take the head off?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Timing off maybe? Did you take the head off?


Timing is def perfect. Chains were done when I removed the head to install the spacer + ARP studs.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

May have found the problem. The TB seems to have separated (again) from the intake manifold. Definitely a huge issue. Going to remove the intake and see if I can make a better seal...clearly it backed out under pressure.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Removed intake...got a fresh gasket and made the TB fit much better...now I KNOW it's tight. Car does the same thing....I don't really smell gas that much anymore so I think I may have fixed something....

BUT. IDK why the car won't stay on unless persuaded and why it dies after throttle. I'm noticing now it just falls on it's face once I hit the gas. 

*Could this be an ignition problem?* If so I'm chucking the MSD out the window and going back to stock.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Changed back to stock ignition. No dice.

Car will turn over without a problem, but it won't stay on even if I hit the gas. I'm now getting throttlebody codes. I checked the plugs and the engine is not flooding or anything.

:banghead:


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

I would invest in a boost leak tester, its just nice to have and you never know. You could be having a fueling issue. I had a buddy with a gauge inline to the rail under his hood for fuel pressure, it was a nice touch and can prove handy on the fly when sorting issues.

Two great options which are both relatively cheap.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

True. But none of these things were happening at first, which is why it's blowing my mind right now. This is the worst the car has run since I first put it together....and I've been 'fixing' things as I go along. 

I can hear the fuel pump priming, and it starts without any hesitation every time. It just never stays on, and I can't give it gas it just dies. I had a buddy adapt my throttlebody with VAG-COM and it did the same thing. 

I unplugged the battery for a few to reset the computer, then I wanted him to do the tb adapt again and no matter what we did he couldn't get a response from the controller anymore . No fuses are blown or anything. Clearly I am getting fuel / spark / air...otherwise it wouldn't start... 

:bs::facepalm: 

HALP


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> True. But none of these things were happening at first, which is why it's blowing my mind right now. This is the worst the car has run since I first put it together....and I've been 'fixing' things as I go along.
> 
> I can hear the fuel pump priming, and it starts without any hesitation every time. It just never stays on, and I can't give it gas it just dies. I had a buddy adapt my throttlebody with VAG-COM and it did the same thing.
> 
> ...


 Chip tune? Make sure the chip did not fall out of the ecu, trust me. 
Wait, it runs? TB wont adapt? 
Where did you relocate the grounds from the intake manifold? Are they in good shape?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Chip tune? Make sure the chip did not fall out of the ecu, trust me.
> Wait, it runs? TB wont adapt?
> Where did you relocate the grounds from the intake manifold? Are they in good shape?


 I adapted it once, but that didn't change anything. Ground from the intake manifold are on the timing chain cover now, seems to be fine. And yeah, the car ran 'ok' besides the random stalling after hitting throttle, and before I was able to ONLY keep the car on by tapping the gas first, otherwise it would stall. After that the car idled high, but it stayed on. 

I ruled that issue down to a leak between the tb and intake manifold, so I fixed that up and here we are, except now I get nothing when I hit the gas...doesn't rev or anything. 

Haha I did not check to see if the chip fell out, though that seems pretty unlikely...


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## cstanley19 (Sep 23, 2006)

Did you make sure that the MAF sensor is on correct? I had it on backwards and was getting the same symptoms. Sometimes it's just the stupid things, ya know?


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

cstanley19 said:


> Did you make sure that the MAF sensor is on correct? I had it on backwards and was getting the same symptoms. Sometimes it's just the stupid things, ya know?


 Yup yup. MAF sensor is on right, I even threw in a spare sensor and got the same results. Gotta be the TB....


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Gotta be the TB....


 I wish. I just replaced the TB with a good one...same result. 

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

This is what it does. 

Just starting the car - not hitting the gas. 
 

Hitting the gas before it stalls out, and it 'idles' (if you can call it that) and it sounds like ****.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

:screwy:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

That is running like azz. And not for nothing what's with the popping/backfiring? 

Here is my suggestion list. 

Get a pressure tester as already suggested by someone else. 
Check the chip is seated properly/swap with a friend as already suggested by someone else. 
Put a *stock/unmolested* throttle body on, 
Put a *stock/unmolested *intake manifold on, 
Put a *stock/unmolested *coilpack on 


I had a poorly made SRI once cause all that backfiring etc as per your video. In my case the vac gauge still read correctly, the leak though minimal was enough to prevent the engine running unlessyou gave it gas.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> That is running like azz. And not for nothing what's with the popping/backfiring?
> 
> *NO IDEA *
> 
> ...


 Answered in BOLD.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

You can run the stock manifold and eliminate the intercooler to simplify your piping. I want to see if your popping is as a result of the manifold itself. I'm assuming you have easier access to a stock mani than having to source another SRI (especially if it turns out not to be the SRI). Your issue is at idle so you don't even have to drive it or boost to see if there is an improvement.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

When you are cranking it sounds like you have no compression.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

I suppose, but I had the car running ok with this intake before...and I sold my stock intake 

And I have compression..I can rev the piss out of it and it never stumbles or anything....just won't idle right


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> I suppose, but I had the car running ok with this intake before...and I sold my stock intake
> 
> And I have compression..I can rev the piss out of it and it never stumbles or anything....just won't idle right


 Try resetting the fuel trims. 
1. Delete any codes, even if there are none. 
2. Adapt the TB 
3. Start the car and let it warm up at idle for 20 min, don't rev it. 
4. Watch your short term fuel trim and see if it settles less than + or - 10% from 0. 
5. If the short term trims out and stays above 10, your O2 is not working correctly, the MAF is bad or you have a vac leak. 
6. Next drive the car at highway speed at varying loads until the long term fuel trim settles, same as idle trim. 

You monitor O2 regulation via the OBD screen on Vag Com. BS1 is your main O2 sensor


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Try resetting the fuel trims.
> 1. Delete any codes, even if there are none.
> 2. Adapt the TB
> 3. Start the car and let it warm up at idle for 20 min, don't rev it.
> ...


 The problem there is I can only keep the car on if I hit the pedal a few times after ignition (second video). I will NOT stay on unless I do that...just turns right off (first video).


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

You didin't leave a rag in a pipe somewhere did you? I did it once, lol.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> You didin't leave a rag in a pipe somewhere did you? I did it once, lol.


 Haha no, definately not. I don't know how many times I've gone over the piping / vac lines. Everything is tight. 

 I thought I saw some smoke coming from near my 02 sensor though? I don't have alot of time to run to the front of the car after it's on...I dont' like letting it run like that to risk damage.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

I swapped my ECU back to the stock one (stock chip), and I thought I figured it out because the car didn't shut off right away and it idled alot higher at first, but smooth. Then it slowly made it's way back down and idled like crap again (me figuring because it was a stock chip) 

I put my chipped ECU in and I started it and it didn't turn off, but idled like super ****. Put the stock ECU back in again to confirm, and it just shut right off again like it always has. 

WHATTHE****


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Man, I just sounds like you got a big vac leak. I popped a coupler off on time and it acted like this.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Man, I just sounds like you got a big vac leak. I popped a coupler off on time and it acted like this.


 This..

Why haven't you pressure tested yet? Its standard procedure, and you can't properly diagnose a damn thing on a Turbo car if you haven't first ruled out any and all leaks (even pinhole leaks) in the entire intake tract; including but not limited to...

All intake plumbing

EVERY vacuum line

Intake manifold

Injector seals

Etc.. etc..

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?t=2692757

From the 1.8t technical forum, but applicable to ALL Turbo cars.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> This..
> 
> Why haven't you pressure tested yet? Its standard procedure, and you can't properly diagnose a damn thing on a Turbo car if you haven't first ruled out any and all leaks (even pinhole leaks) in the entire intake tract; including but not limited to...
> 
> ...


 My tester thing hasn't come in yet, I ordered one from turboboostleaktesters.com I don't know where else it could leak, but I will obviously make good use of the tool. 

When the car idle's like that the vac bounces between 2-1...lol Then obv when it stalls it hits 0. I don't know how many times I have to check all the couplers and pipes / lines...because I put the car together and it was all good.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

This won't fix ya but I just noticed you're on MSD's...you can stretch that gap out to somewhere in the 30's. I got mine all the way out to .041, no issues. Couldn't actually tell a diff anywhere between there and .028. Currently running at .039.


Maybe I can benefit from this discussion, though...on a non-intercooled, 6psi setup, should I still move my wastegate vac line from the back of the [stock mk4 manifold] to the compressor tap? Having a hard time sorting this out in my head.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I'll prob open the gap up again but I switched back to the stock coilpack to rule that out as an issue. MSD will go back on shortly.

And yes, the wastegate line should be connected to the cold side of the turbo for the best response.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

I would erase ecu memory and then do a TBA now, and after every change that you do. I know that you said a jumpbox did not help, but you may want a helper to help test voltage output when you get it stumbling along to see if the alternator is charging at all. 


Have you done anything new with the plug wire arrangement that is different from before? Maybe you are getting bad arcing between the insulation or something. Check the inside of the plug wires where it snaps onto the plug, sometimes you start getting an arc there if it's not initally snapped down far enough and it corrodes and pits up the metal inside.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

This might require someone with some serious electrical engineering knowledge but...

...for the amount of voltage coming off the MSD coils, if the wires were literally laying across each other, could the energy being pushed thru one wire induce a voltage in an adjacent wire thereby causing that adjacent wire to fire its spark plug?? Sorry...this might be a bit of a thread jack.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

'dubber said:


> I would erase ecu memory and then do a TBA now, and after every change that you do. I know that you said a jumpbox did not help, but you may want a helper to help test voltage output when you get it stumbling along to see if the alternator is charging at all.
> 
> 
> Have you done anything new with the plug wire arrangement that is different from before? Maybe you are getting bad arcing between the insulation or something. Check the inside of the plug wires where it snaps onto the plug, sometimes you start getting an arc there if it's not initally snapped down far enough and it corrodes and pits up the metal inside.


When the car is 'running' im getting 13+ Volts at the battery. 

Plug wires are all in the right spot, all I did was swap back to the stock ignition so I borrowed my buddies plug wires since I only have the MSD wires.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I did this too. Reverted back to stock ignition when it wasn't running right...same same. I think the MSDs are more solid than people give them credit.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah the MSD was clearly not the problem. Hopefully the boost leak tester gives me some results I can work with. Currently getting info on having a 'Juan Built' SRI made for me, seems to be a quality piece, just in case my sri turns out to be a useless pos.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Currently getting info on having a 'Juan Built' SRI made for me, seems to be a quality piece.


His work is legit. :thumbup:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> His work is legit. :thumbup:


:thumbup::beer:


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## mike minnillo (Sep 23, 2007)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> His work is legit. :thumbup:


x3. Built quality and fitment are perfect.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

mike minnillo said:


> x3. Built quality and fitment are perfect.


Good to hear. I'll have my boost leak tester tomorrow so I'll hopefully get some results.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Long story short: found a leak between the TB and intake.

Got a new intake and it idles very well now. However, the car will still stall after boost and just letting the RPM's drop.

Makes. No. Sense.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

:banghead:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> :banghead:


x 10 trillion

Yo. Lemme scoop that 6765


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

FIXED!

Problem was fixed after switching to a DV over my BOV. Car ran like a monster and didn't stall!

WOOP! Thanks for the help fellas


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> His work is legit. :thumbup:


Legit for sure. I got mine second hand, but It fits perfect.:thumbup:


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> FIXED!
> 
> Problem was fixed after switching to a DV over my BOV. Car ran like a monster and didn't stall!
> 
> WOOP! Thanks for the help fellas


quoted for emphasis. and yeah I'm very happy with the manifold.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*FV-QR*

What BOV was you using? I think the BOV was faulty (leaking) rather then it being the BOV itself as the cause. Most of us chip guys run BOV. Some people get surge or stall issues. I run my BOV kinda tight so that the pistons reaction would be quicker then normal. I'm also running a Pro-MAF so its recovery time is much faster then the stock unit.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> What BOV was you using? I think the BOV was faulty (leaking) rather then it being the BOV itself as the cause. Most of us chip guys run BOV. Some people get surge or stall issues. I run my BOV kinda tight so that the pistons reaction would be quicker then normal. I'm also running a Pro-MAF so its recovery time is much faster then the stock unit.


Doesn't say anything on it other than Forge. And it's non-recirculating. It worked, I heard it go off all the time, but the motor would never recover after dropping the rpm's, and when it did, the idle was bouncing around all over the place. Yeah I just have the stock MAF in a 4" housing. I'm not gonna bother with the pro-maf because I'll be going Lugtronic in the future.

Once I swapped in a DV, all issues were gone.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> What BOV was you using? I think the BOV was faulty (leaking) rather then it being the BOV itself as the cause. Most of us chip guys run BOV. Some people get surge or stall issues. I run my BOV kinda tight so that the pistons reaction would be quicker then normal. I'm also running a Pro-MAF so its recovery time is much faster then the stock unit.


He's running the Forge 001 (with who knows what spring ).

Yep, the Pro-MAF definitely is a factor as I run a BOV (atmospheric dump) as well on my Pro-MAF. On the stock MAF & 4" housing combination drivability is not always predictable. Some cars it worked, others it did not. To cover themselves Jeff/C2 always stated that a recirc was required - period.

As many issues as Insan3 has had with this car though I did not want to get into the try variations of BOV and BOV spring tension to fix his problem. I figured the DV would be the cleanest, simplest route. If he wants to start getting into adjustable BOV in the future then he can. He was pretty frustrated and was at the point of saying screw the chip... go with Lugtronic. I think if you accept the design constraints of how the software was intended to work, ie with a DV then there is no problem. :thumbup:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I had taken for granted that the OP knew the difference between a BOV and a DV. Even though his orig diagram shows a "BOV"...he later said it was "recirculating" so I took that to mean that he was using the DV that came with the kit but just calling it the wrong thing (as alot of people do). Had it been more clear to me that this was venting to atmosphere, I would have questioned it weeks ago. The C2 tune (well, you figured it out) is written for a DV, not a BOV. 

Anyway, congrats on sorting it out. I know that feeling of jubilation when you finally do.

And kudos for finishing up the thread with a _here is what the solution turned out to be_. Too many people come on here and whine about a problem, 20 people offer a fix, and when the problem is solved, they just disappear without identifying how they solved it contributing ZERO to the forums and the community. So :thumbup: and :beer: to Insan3Vr6.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> He's running the Forge 001 (with who knows what spring ).
> 
> Yep, the Pro-MAF definitely is a factor as I run a BOV (atmospheric dump) as well on my Pro-MAF. On the stock MAF & 4" housing combination drivability is not always predictable. Some cars it worked, others it did not. To cover themselves Jeff/C2 always stated that a recirc was required - period.
> 
> As many issues as Insan3 has had with this car though I did not want to get into the try variations of BOV and BOV spring tension to fix his problem. I figured the DV would be the cleanest, simplest route. If he wants to start getting into adjustable BOV in the future then he can. He was pretty frustrated and was at the point of saying screw the chip... go with Lugtronic. I think if you accept the design constraints of how the software was intended to work, ie with a DV then there is no problem. :thumbup:


I have done some research on adjustable BOV's and whatnot but you are exactly right, because my knowledge with FI is limited to my own experience with it I didn't know the ins and outs. I feel like I have a good grasp on what's going on now. Sometimes I decide to go with the ultimatum (ie Lugtronic) because I hate guessing games, even though the solution was very simple, it was just a matter of troubleshooting EVERYTHING to get there.

PS. I still want Lugtronic  



vr6pilot said:


> I had taken for granted that the OP knew the difference between a BOV and a DV. Even though his orig diagram shows a "BOV"...he later said it was "recirculating" so I took that to mean that he was using the DV that came with the kit but just calling it the wrong thing (as alot of people do). Had it been more clear to me that this was venting to atmosphere, I would have questioned it weeks ago. The C2 tune (well, you figured it out) is written for a DV, not a BOV.
> 
> Anyway, congrats on sorting it out. I know that feeling of jubilation when you finally do.
> 
> And kudos for finishing up the thread with a _here is what the solution turned out to be_. Too many people come on here and whine about a problem, 20 people offer a fix, and when the problem is solved, they just disappear without identifying how they solved it contributing ZERO to the forums and the community. So :thumbup: and :beer: to Insan3Vr6.


I was under the impression that a BOV and a DV fell under the 'same thing - different name' category. I also didn't buy a kit, this was pieced together. I got the old intake manifold, turbo, and BOV from the same person. I thought mine was considered recirculating because I had the vac line and the actual connection to the charge piping, obviously because I didn't totally understand how the diaphragm worked. Once I saw the DV and how it actually had a second line to plumb back on the intake, I had a "AHAA" moment.

I learned a lot through this, and though it gave me hell, it's an easy fix. That's why I love vortex, and specifically the FI forum for the help. :heart:


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

vr6pilot said:


> I had taken for granted that the OP knew the difference between a BOV and a DV. Even though his orig diagram shows a "BOV"...he later said it was "recirculating" so I took that to mean that he was using the DV that came with the kit but just calling it the wrong thing (as alot of people do). Had it been more clear to me that this was venting to atmosphere, I would have questioned it weeks ago. The C2 tune (well, you figured it out) is written for a DV, not a BOV.
> 
> Anyway, congrats on sorting it out. I know that feeling of jubilation when you finally do.
> 
> And kudos for finishing up the thread with a _here is what the solution turned out to be_. Too many people come on here and whine about a problem, 20 people offer a fix, and when the problem is solved, they just disappear without identifying how they solved it contributing ZERO to the forums and the community. So :thumbup: and :beer: to Insan3Vr6.


Yep that pretty much sums it up hahaha.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Just me again, with the same exact problem. I got my DV in (same one my buddy had) and the car does the same thing. I am running the right spring, nothing is leaking, and it's hooked up right as far as I know.

Any other ideas before I lose all rational control and break something?










I ran it in this configuration, as well as flipped. Sometimes it's smooth when coming off boost, but usually it's not. FYI, that kink in the line was taken care of, changed nothing.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Lets recap a bit....what exactly is it doing? Check your exhaust manifold & turbo-to-mani nuts. Sometimes they back out enough to get air. I dunno if i asked you this before but have you checked your plugs? If so how did they look? Sometimes the pressure causes blowout.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I don't mean to speak _for_ him but I think he's still on 6lbs. Not enough to snuff the spark.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Not to thread Jack, but what plugs and gap are you vrt guys running?

Bkr7e's? .028? Or different?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I'm running BKR7E's. I have a set of FDC's that i'll be swapping in soon. .026 gaap


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

vr6pilot said:


> I don't mean to speak _for_ him but I think he's still on 6lbs. Not enough to snuff the spark.


True. Just throwing things out there as i think of 'em. 

How about the FPR? Its good to know where your FP's at...both off & on boost. What bar FPR are you using? Should be a 4 bar.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I'm running BKR7E's. I have a set of FDC's that i'll be swapping in soon. .026 gaap


Thx bro:beer:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Does that SRI mount direct to the head or to the original plastic lower intake manifold? If the orig lower intake mani is still there, check to be sure you plugged the evap nipple coming off the driver's side of the lower intake manifold.

Also, make sure the ground wire to the throttle body is connected _to_ the TB and that it is properly grounded. I've forgotten this a few times.

Lastly, your car is 2 years older than mine with the same mileage. Time for a new crank position sensor, possibly?

@ dubbinsinceuwereindiapers; bkre7's and .026-.028 on stock coilpack as recommended by Kinetic.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Whoa whoa guys lol. 

Long story short, when coming off of boost, and letting the rpm's drop, the idle will bounce a few times and then even itself out. I ran up to 15lbs on this, but right now I'm back at 6lbs to diagnose. My plugs and gap are all good, Bkr7e at .028. I checked em a few times.

FPR is a 3.0bar. My car is obd2, that's what the tune is meant for. Why would I run anything higher? Would a leak at the exhaust manifold or turbo-to-manifold cause the idle to bounce like that? It only happens after boost...

And for all the other info, this is a mk3, so it has a cast lower manifold, no plastic here. There is no EVAP nipple on mk3 lower manifolds, nor is there a ground ON the throttle body, that ground is on the head, which mine is still there.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Okay, roger that. I passed on the mk3 so am not fully versed on similarities/differences but yeah, you're drive-by-cable, aren't you.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> Okay, roger that. I passed on the mk3 so am not fully versed on similarities/differences but yeah, you're drive-by-cable, aren't you.


Yup.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Make sure the vacuum source to the DV is strong. Where it's pulling from + that the line isn't collapsing on itself. I see you have one of those shiny red lines and IIRC the material those(usually are blue/red in color) are made of is _very_ soft. Try a higher quality, harder line. I had that exact issue with my MKIV VRT and it was running like I was running an open BOV (causing the MAF to get unhappy) because it wasn't opening properly since the line would collapse. On rev, idle would come down and bounce before settling, or sometimes even stall.

Cheers
-Dan


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> Make sure the vacuum source to the DV is strong. Where it's pulling from + that the line isn't collapsing on itself. I see you have one of those shiny red lines and IIRC the material those(usually are blue/red in color) are made of is _very_ soft. Try a higher quality, harder line. I had that exact issue with my MKIV VRT and it was running like I was running an open BOV (causing the MAF to get unhappy) because it wasn't opening properly since the line would collapse. On rev, idle would come down and bounce before settling, or sometimes even stall.
> 
> Cheers
> -Dan


Good info. I actually just bought that line, because my old line was blue, and very thin. Though the old one didn't collapse, this one is the same diameter hole but a much thicker line.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Insan3Vr6 said:


> Whoa whoa guys lol.
> 
> Long story short, when coming off of boost, and letting the rpm's drop, the idle will bounce a few times and then even itself out. I ran up to 15lbs on this, but right now I'm back at 6lbs to diagnose. My plugs and gap are all good, Bkr7e at .028. I checked em a few times.
> 
> ...


You didn't mention it being an OBD2 hence why i asked. 

And yes, leaky mani will definitely mess with your idle.

I agree with Dan...check the hose. I had mine collapse on me and it messed with my idle. 

I would have UM or C2 check your software just to be sure.


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Anyone wanna recommend me a good fuel rail + FPR combo? The stock one for some reason isn't sealing right on injector #6.... 

I think it's because I flipped the oil dipstick and it's pushing against the stock rail (short runner intake FYI).


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Contact whomever you got the SRI from for the fuel rail. As for FPR, only ones i'd use is Aeromotive or Fuel Lab (which i currently use)


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## Insan3Vr6 (Oct 19, 2009)

Good to know. And I've contacted m20 motorsports...just waiting for a response.


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