# Tuning for Water/Meth



## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

A lot of people say that a car should be tuned for water/meth to fully exploit the capabilities.
What would you be tuning FOR? 
My concern is that if I were to tune for water/meth and ran low, I'd have issues.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Tuning for Water/Meth (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_A lot of people say that a car should be tuned for water/meth to fully exploit the capabilities.
What would you be tuning FOR? 
My concern is that if I were to tune for water/meth and ran low, I'd have issues.









Optimizing a tune for water/methanol injection is similar to doing the same for higher octane fuel in conjunction with colder intake air temperatures. It doesn't matter so much how one gets the higher octane or colder IAT because the engine and ECU don't ask "how did you get here?".
Higher octane fuel burns more slowly than low octane fuel. Spraying the fine fog of water/methanol slows combustion by removing heat. As a result, an untuned engine's burn will complete too far after TDC when the piston is falling in the bore. In this scenario the flame front "chases" the piston while combustion chamber pressure drops quickly. Thus, an optimal ECU tune will have advanced ignition timing so as to start the combustion process earlier.
A hotter IAT will evaporate the fuel droplets faster and makes an air/fuel charge that burns faster and hotter. Spraying water/methanol cools the intake charge via flash evaporation. Once again, it slows the combustion rate to a safe and controllable speed so that there is a steady shove on the piston (vs. a detonation event where all the energy is released in an instant).
The richer mixtures that high-strung turbo engines are typically tuned for are to cool the combustion chamber temperatures. When water/methanol is sprayed this need for this safety measure is lessened or removed completely. Thus, in addition to advanced ignition timing an optimized ECU will dictate a leaner air/fuel mixture. (The methanol is supplementary fuel and thusly replaces some of the gasoline fuel requirement, too.)
This tuning can be done on the street with a "butt dyno". However, (just like always) for best results, the dynomometer is the best place to do it. You'll want to scan the ECU for ignition timing effects. What you want to see is timing advanced beyond where it was previously safe (and for maximum torque) but with no misfires (which signifies that the spray is too aggressive and is putting out the fire).
Your concern is valid about running low. If the engine is tuned for the razor's edge of performance (with higher octane fuel/lower IAT), and if you remove that protection... the result will be detonation. We all know what can happen next. Good news is that the window is fairly wide. We don't have rotary engines with weak apex seals, for example. Better news is that if you're really paranoid, you can add a failsafe device that purges boost if/when you run out of spray. Your best bet, however, is to invest in a solid system, install it correctly, and simply keep the tank full!
When USRT introduced water/methnol injection to the VW/Audi enthusiast space, this type of concern was a major deterrent. However, after several years of effort the systems have gone fairly mainstream. From that you can infer that failures are exceedingly rare and that success is a given so long as you do the job "right". Of course, makes it no different than any other tuning technology.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

the one thing I'm looking for is reduced IATs. The stock SMIC on the S6 is adequately sized in most respects, but heatsoaks very quickly. I'm thinking, at this time anyway, to go with an RS2 turbocharger and the RS2 chipset from 034... this doesn't leave me any room for tuning as it's a boxed ECU. 
I'm basically looking for chemical intercooling, in the long run. Maybe later I can get a standalone system like VEMS ($1400) or 034EFI Stage IIc ($2600) and tune to it, but I'm just trying to keep IATs down when I go to the bigger turbocharger. 
I'm making 17psi right now, but the RS2 turbocharger runs 27psi...


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## theAntiRiced (May 7, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I ran WAI on a MKIV 20V with the stock turbo and IC. I found that at speed the benefits of WAI were huge, but at low speeds, especially after sitting for any amount of time, the stock IC was so heat-soaked that the WAI basically canceled out my awful IC.
Without a decent IC you won't get a consistent IAT to tune the WAI optimally; I could have turned my timing up more and the ECU would have adapted well but my IC got in the way.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_the one thing I'm looking for is reduced IATs.

You'll get those colder IAT. The drop is typically about 40- 75degF reduction and is the the easy/inevitable part of the tuning equation. Optimizing the ignition timing is the more challenging bit, but you'll benefit handsomely even without it. The alternative to advancing timing is to turn up the boost. Either way you build cylinder pressures earlier (which boosts torque as well as peak power.) Rumor has it that extra boost makes for extra fun.









_Quote »_The stock SMIC on the S6 is adequately sized in most respects, but heatsoaks very quickly.

Water/methanol injection cools after the IC, but cools nonetheless. So, your IC heat soak issue will still persist. However, the spray kit will eliminate its ill effects. After you upgrade the IC you can tune even more aggressively (as Tom just mentioned). Colder is *always* better.
I'll be happy to configure and provide system for you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

well, I have a devil's own kit ready to go in.
At first, I wanted to do a pre-compressor injector, but I dunno about it. compressor wheel erosion scares me


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

NOOOOoooooo... NEVER spray before the turbo for the exact reason that you just mentioned. Rather, place the nozzle/s AFTER the intercooler. There are merits to doing a dual nozzle set up, btw. If you need clarification on that, I'll be happy to elaborate.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Well, the one thing we were mentioning was reducing IATs at the intercooler to reduce heatsoak.
I know some companies say that blowing on the turbo is NOT a bad thing if the nozzle size is correct and the water/meth concentration is 50/50
You reduce the intake temps right at the beginning of the charge. 
AIS is one of the few companies that 'recommends' it
http://www.alcoholinjectionsys....html

_Quote »_1. Pre-Turbocharger/Centrifugal Injection
By placing the water methanol injection nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water methanol into the air inlet of the compressor can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression. On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels.
How is this possible?
When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.
It's important to understand it is here that the heat is being generated.
water methanol injectionA turbochargers impeller can spin at an astonishing speed between 100,000- 150,000 rpms. While centrifugal supercharger impellers spin between 40,000-65,000+ rpm. Between each pair of blades on an impeller exists a wedge shaped open space which the air fills in. As the impeller is spinning, this wedge shaped air pocket is subjected to tremendous centrifugal forces and is forced outward away from the center of the impeller to the outer edges. It is here where the air begins to stack up and compress against the compressor housing forming the heat as it makes it way into the scroll.
water methanol injectionAs the compressed air heats up, it tries to further expand, making it now more difficult for the heated compressed air to pass through and exit the compressor thereby lowering the compressor efficiency. In addition, this compressed air is taking up more space within the compressor limiting new incoming air from being processed. Furthermore, the hot compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense as it has been heated significantly. Therefore, containing less power producing oxygen while making the engine considerably more prone to detonation.
By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.
All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection.
water methanol injectionLastly, as already mentioned above, pre-compressor injection substantially lowers the discharge temperatures exiting the compressor. The engine is now less prone to detonation through this reduction in air charge temperatures. Furthermore, the use of an intercooler is dramatically reduced and in some applications no longer needed as it may not offer substantial further cooling effects in return for the pressure drop caused by it. Removal of the intercooler could now offer a further increase in boost pressure at the engine as well as compressor efficiency.
While all of this sounds very exciting. To do this properly requires proper sizing of the nozzles in relation to the compressor size and output. Additionally, the type fluid being used also effects the size of the water injection nozzle selected. When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.
When injecting water, we can quickly over saturate the air charge and have an excess of fluid discharging the compressor. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization, nearly double that of methanol, and does not flash (instantly evaporate) like that of methanol or other alcohols when injected into a hot air stream. Therefore, a smaller nozzle must be used when spraying pure water.
water methanol injectionA better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.
*One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle. Impeller erosion is highly unlikely with centrifugal supercharger as they spin at a considerably slower speed then turbochargers. Impeller erosion is of little concern with centrifugal superchargers.*

however, they really are the ONLY company out there that takes that stance. I was thinking a small secondary nozzle pointing downstream of the turbocharger (IE not spraying directly on the impeller) would reduce any erosion and cool the initial intake charge.

_Quote »_7. Staggered Injection
Staggered injection involves combining pre-compressor injection with an additional secondary nozzle positioned further down the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, such as pre-throttle body/carburetor injection. By combining pre-compressor injection with pre-throttle body injection, were able to improve the efficiency of the compressor while dramatically reducing air charge temperatures at the compressor and again at the intake for a combined synergistic effect. Furthermore, the secondary nozzle provides the necessary cylinder cooling, detonation control, and reduced EGT's which the pre-turbocharger nozzles does not.
Best of all, installation remains essentially the same and costs are only marginally more as the addition of a secondary nozzle and tee fitting are all that is required. We highly recommend the staggered injection for all turbocharged applications and high boost centrifugal applications.
For complete details on Pre-compressor injection and Pre-Throttle Body/Carburetor injection these are listed above individually.
Pre-Compressor Injection Precautions
Never place your water methanol injector before the mass air meter. The only time this may be allowed is with pre-compressor injection. When done properly, little or no fluid is exiting the compressor. Only a cooler denser, high humidity air charge with little or no actual fluid remaining in the air charge after the compressor.
When installing your water methanol injection system on a EFI vehicle, it's best to first determine where the IAT or ACT sensor is located before deciding on a nozzle locations. Often times we can position the nozzle before the factory IAT (intake air temperature) or ACT (air charge temperature) sensor location without having to relocate it. This allows us the ability to better use the IAT or ACT sensor for retuning the ECU for the addition of the water methanol injection system.
Unfortunately, many of our newer vehicles have now incorporated the IAT sensor in to the mass air meter. With most applications we can disable this IAT sensor in the mass air meter and install a new separate IAT sensor in a new desirable location.

Aside from that, my only other solution for the heatsoaking SMIC is to spray it with NOS or CO2 and I don't want a pressurized bottle in my car.
and I DON'T want a FMIC. 
I'm hoping the new upgraded SMIC comes out soon.


_Modified by Chapel at 1:16 PM 10-14-2009_


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

I agree with pretty much everything that AIS says. Their tech is rock solid and pre-turbo injection has proven to do better atomization than any other method. The pumping efficiencies that come via this method are superb.
HOWEVER... what they downplay is the eroding effect of the spray on a turbo's impeller vanes. Much like a "bang bang" anti-lag system (which keeps a turbo spooled between shifts or even when the car is at rest) it just isn't practical for a street car. Do you care to regularly swap out turbos?
Furthermore, spraying pre-turbo turns the IC into an interWARMER because the difference between the charge and ambient temperatures is greatly reduced. This differential is required for any heat exchange to take place. 
My stern recommendation is to place a nozzle or a pair of nozzles after the intercooler. Again, what AIS shares is correct, but the advice is completely inappropriate for a street vehicle.


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## Alcohol Injection Systems (Oct 15, 2009)

Hey guys. This popped up on our radar and we wanted to comment on this subject of pre-compressor injection and add some input and experience on this since we are one of the few companies that runs this method and pushes it. 
I know how confusing and concerning this subject is because I found myself once wondering the same thing and what the truth was on all this too. Years ago before starting this business I ran a system called Mr Freeze by Anderson Motorsports. Its been around for over 10 years now and I know they’ve sold thousands of units. Anyways, it used a mig welding tip nozzle which you positioned right in front of the turbo or centrifugal impeller. When activated this system would literally just pee a solid stream of fluid right at the impeller. No atomization at all and yet there was no sign of wear on the impeller on my turbo or any of the other guys I knew running this system.
Another set up I had further back then this was a draw through carbureted big block chevy turbo engine in which the carburetor was located before the turbo. This was before we knew how to modify carburetors and blow through them. So we just dumped the entire fuel system right through the turbo. Worked great and again never had an issue with the impeller or turbo I could remember on that set up. Granted, it wasn’t a daily driven car like the Mustang and only something that was raced so I consider that. 
So when we got into the business I already had some prior experience running fluids through the turbo. Yet still because of everyone saying not to do it we were confused. So we spoke to everyone we knew in the industry who had or was still running it and looked at everyone’s impellers and again couldn’t find anything. After a while of not finding one impeller that had been eroded we laid it to rest and we began testing it to see if it worked better and every time we did it we made our best numbers on what ever the application was. We've been doing it now for years and no problems and haven’t looked back. Additionally, it doesn't matter if its a daily driven street car, diesel truck or a race car. 
We've been doing pre-compressor injection now for years on both gasoline and diesel applications. Most of our diesel systems get set up this way being there all turbo setups and really benefit from it. While a large percentage of the gasoline systems get set up this way as well. I would imagine we have somewhere around 600-700 systems out there running pre-compressor injection. Yet not one of these guys have had a problem with their turbo. And while we don't stay in contact or hear back from many of our customers after the sale. If there was an issue. Trust me we would have an epidemic of worn turbo impellers and our customers complaining all over the net slamming us for doing it. 
I hope this helps. If you have any questions concerning this feel free to emails us me at [email protected]


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I've had experience with pull through turbo carb systems and never had any problems with impeller wear.
what about blowing the mist upstream so that it gets sucked IN instead of spraying directly onto the impeller nozzle?
I'd really like to do a 2 stage system with one blowing on the turbo and one blowing pre-throttle body (which is also pre-IAT sensor.)


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## Alcohol Injection Systems (Oct 15, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

It makes no difference how you spray the nozzle. Its not going to matter if you are able to angle the nozzle to spray upstream against the air flow. It's still going to go through the turbo the same way essentially.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (Alcohol Injection Systems)*

Injecting pre-turbo still pegs my sketchometer.







However, that there is the sort of differing opinion that I appreciate highly.








I will acknowledge that when I did this back in the day it was with pure water. Since that doesn't flash evaporate like methanol it might explain why I did se impeller erosion. With that said, I stand by the fact that cooling before the IC limits the possible heat exchange.
Just like everything else in engine tuning... it's a compromise.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

well, I was thinking if it was spraying upstream, you wouldn't have the FORCE of the nozzle spraying DIRECTLY onto the impeller.
Also, I've yet to actually SEE impeller erosion. I've only HEARD of it.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_Also, I've yet to actually SEE impeller erosion. I've only HEARD of it.

Here ya go:


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

what size injector were you using?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

If that question was for me, I really have no idea. I experienced those problems waaaaay back in the day. -probably around 2000 or so when I first got into water/alcohol injection.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

and you said you were running straight water back then?
I read erosion is more common with straight water...


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

Yes, we ran pure water back then and the controllers were not as sophisticated as they are now. So, it is entirely possible that flow volume could have been exaggerated and droplet size was larger than optimal. So, perhaps it is practical to spray pre-turbo now. That's for you to decide.
However, the _"interwarmer"_ effect is still inevitable, unavoidable, etc. AIS is on the ball with the contrary opinion, but we're talking about simple heat exchange here. The more cooling the spray does pre-turbo the less the intercooler can help and the greater the chance that it will ADD heat. Thus, I still lean towards spraying post-turbo.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

well, if we're reducing IATs pre turbo and post intercooler, shouldn't the overall temperature drop reduce the thermal inefficiency caused by the intercooler?
I'd love to run an IAT sensor after the turbo and after the intercooler to see what the temperature is at both ends. one with the turbo sprayer on, one with the charge pipe sprayer on, one with both on and one with both off. See if there's any benefits. I don't mind being a guinea pig.
Also, with my 170k mile K24, I'm not worried about compressor erosion this late in the game. I plan on upgrading it at some point. it would be a good test to run it for a few thousand miles to see what's up. I know that for a pre-compressor sprayer, you want to run high atomization sprayers
What I need to know is what sprayers are going to be required for a 250psi pump if I want one on pre-compressor and one on the charge pipe. 
I want ultra-fine atomization at the compressor and maybe a little thicker at the charge pipe.


_Modified by Chapel at 1:42 PM 10-16-2009_


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_well, if we're reducing IATs pre turbo and post intercooler,

Perhaps you're missing the point that if you drop the pre-IC IAT to below ambient then the IC will ADD heat to the intake charge. In other words, the IAT would be colder if you removed the IC entirely. The "proper" way to do it (as far as I'm concerned) is to let the IC cool the intake temps and then spray the water/alky mix which will do maximum cooling.
For example... let's assume that it is 100degF outside. The IAT coming from the turbo is 200degF. The IC isn't 100% efficient, so let's say... it drops the IAT down by 60degF to 140deg. Then, we'd spray the water/alky mist and it'd drop by another 60degF (typical) to 80deg. That's 20deg below ambient. NICE!
Now, let's spray pre-turbo. Now, the IAT leaves the turbo at 140deg. Again, the IC is not 100% efficient. Let's go with the same 60% effiency in the last example to keep it simple. So, we do .60 * 140deg and that = 84degF. That's 4deg HIGHER than the previous example. On top of that there's the potential impeller erosion issue to contend with.

_Quote »_What I need to know is what sprayers are going to be required for a 250psi pump if I want one on pre-compressor and one on the charge pipe.

This is a question best answered by Rodney from AIS. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I'm wondering if we're dual spraying though.
The big concern I'm having is heatsoaking the Intercooler with high IATs caused by the compressor. If I'm not 'on the juice' I'm blowing air through a hot IC and getting really high IATs
if I'm cooling the initial charge, the intercooler shouldn't ever heatsoak to begin with
so while the example you gave may work after 1 or 2 pulls, what happens when we get to the third pull and the IC isn't doing nearly anything for IATs?
If we had kept the charge cooled the whole way, isn't the overall result better?
I mean, the only other option to keep the IC cooled off is for me to install a CryO2 sprayer nozzle on the intercooler, but I don't want to be running around with tanks of pressurized gas in my car.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_I'm cooling the initial charge, the intercooler shouldn't ever heatsoak to begin with

It depends on what the pre-turbo spray cools the charge to. If the IAT is remains above ambient (very likely) you will heat soak the IC. On the other hand, if the IAT is below ambient because of the water/alky spray, then the IC will ADD heat to the IAT. There's no getting around this.

_Quote »_after 1 or 2 pulls, what happens when we get to the third pull and the IC isn't doing nearly anything for IATs?

In that case, then the water/alky mist does the cooling post-IC.

_Quote »_If we had kept the charge cooled the whole way, isn't the overall result better?

No, it's really not for the reasons that I've mentioned. If you drop the IAT to below ambient, and if the IC core is at ambient temperature, too, then the IC becomes an interwarmer. (Heat always travels from hot to cold.) If the IAT is above ambient, then the IC core will pick up that heat and eventually heat soak.

_Quote »_the only other option to keep the IC cooled off is for me to install a CryO2 sprayer nozzle on the intercooler, but I don't want to be running around with tanks of pressurized gas in my car.

No, that's not true. What you need is something like this which mists the IC with the same water/alcohol solution (or plain water). One of these days I'm going to complete the kit so that it draws from the same reservoir & pump as the water/meth system.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*









I had a mist sprayer on my WRX... worked ok... probably would have been better if I had a higher pressure pump and not just the windshield washer sprayer...


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

High-pressure and a high-quality nozzle is critical for getting the droplet size down to a small size. This is what dictates evaporation/cooling rate. A very coarse spray willl simply hose down the IC core and do very little cooling. In fact, if the liquid film is thick enough, it can even hold heat. A windshield washer pump isn't even close to powerful enough to do the job correctly.
Anyway, the IC mister + post-IC water/alky is the optimal solution for you as I see it. There are no downsides and lots of upsides.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

hmm... ill need to find a solution for activating the ic sprayer


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

also, what size and volume sprayer would be good for an IC sprayer? obviously want a nice fan spread. would I want it running whenever the alky sprayer is working on the inside or should I have it on a thermoswitch inserted into the intercooler


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_hmm... ill need to find a solution for activating the ic sprayer

USRT already has the control mechanism handled. Look at the document that I linked you to.

_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_also, what size and volume sprayer would be good for an IC sprayer? obviously want a nice fan spread. would I want it running whenever the alky sprayer is working on the inside or should I have it on a thermoswitch inserted into the intercooler


The way to do it is to do one OR the other when utilizing the same pump. Making them run at the same time will upset the pressure/flow relationship to the water/alky system and will throw off the tune. Switching between the two systems is a negligible compromise, however. That's because at high engine load (when the water/alky hits) you're already at speed. So, there is good air flow through the IC. The misting is best done after this period or at moderate load/road speeds.
Btw, this product needs some basic R&D work to integrate the two systems (i.e. IC misting & water/alky). You mentioned being a guinea pig before. If you'd like to get involved with that, it's discussable.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

lemme get my initial sprayer job done and I'll let you know. this is sort of a long term project right now. The sprayer is going in sometime in November. 
I have your email so I'll shoot you something when I'm done. Maybe my guy will be interested in selling your IC mister


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Chapel)*

What exactly is the "initial sprayer job"? Who is "your guy"? Or, what does "your guy" do?


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I'll email you.


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