# MK1 Cabby 1.8 G60TSI Buildup



## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*MK1 Cabby 1.8 G60TSI Buildup Phase 1 (R&D)*

*Termite's MK1 Cabby 1.8 G60TSI Buildup*
FYI: I have started building This site as a diary to all my projects.
*PHASE 1 (Research and Development)*
So, it starts... I've told a few people about my plans. I was originally going to keep it a secret, but as I dug into the scenarios I came to realize I'm going to need some advice. I’ve started picking apart some brains and websites; even started hording random parts. I'm in the R&D stage for my 1.8 TG60 cabby build.
*The Basics:* Background of the VW 1.4 TSI
In series is the way the 1.4 TSI Golf was designed, but that could present an issue with hot compressed air going in to the turbo. I'd need not only an IC after the turbo, before the intake, but I'd like to put an IC between the charger and turbo if I am going to do this. 

Parallel was my first thought, since I wouldn't be running hot air in to the turbo, and wouldn't require two IC's. So it's either two smaller IC's or one large one. I'll play this by ear as I go. Space and placement may dictate this design. 
Of course, this concept isn’t new or different by any means at all. Lancia had a similar setup in their AWD Mid Engine Deltas and were banned from the races for having too much power. I believe a few other manufacturers dabbled with this concept as well, but I haven’t dug that deep in to them. Honestly, the Lancia engine is what originally spawned this idea in my head. That and I saw some Skyline with it YEARS ago. I was fascinated from that point on. That and muh boy DuncMan brought it up in conversation again one day. It almost seemed fait for me to try this…
*“Why use an 1.8 8v G60 as your baseline.”*
Simple, the engine was free, and readily available. That and I figured a VR6 is much heavier, less ground clearance, and I didn’t get one for free. Don’t get me wrong, the VR6 is hella sexy sounding, and backs a huge punch in the pants, but I’m going to stick with the smaller engine to start. It was suggested to me by CanaryRadoG60 (not sure his vortex name), on the Strictly European Autosport forums to go with a 16v conversion for extra flow. Thanks for the advice mate, I’m going to look in to acquiring the parts.
*Asking for a handout:*
Now, I'd like to pick the brains of anyone who wishes to support my cause. If you have ANY input good or bad, please send it my way. Criticism, constructive or not, will give me something to work with. The whole point of this project is to attempt to do something "different", something hard to do. Hell, I may even attempt to find seal and hose kits for this to take E85. The thought of a green performance car had crossed my mind. 
*The Scientific Method* Who remembers this from school?
================================================
*Problem*
What turbo to use? I’m a bit new to the forced induction world, and don’t know the reviews and names of all the good turbo systems out there. I learn fast thought.








*Hypothesis:*
*Test & Analysis:*
*Conclusion:*

================================================
*Problem*
Stock G60 ECU re-chipping/reprogramming, MegaSquirt, other piggyback system, or standalone?
*Hypothesis:*
The ECU that came with this engine is from an automatic setup. I’m assuming this will work fine, but I wonder what using an auto ECU will do when running a manual. I assume the only difference is the auto ECU has kick-down control. Speaking of which, I need to sell that tranny soonish.
*Advice from others*
From CanaryRadoG60 on the Strictly European Autosport forums
snstuning.com <---sam knows his **** when it comes to all digi set-ups sam might have some info on the set-up you are looking to tackle. he might have tried and or thought of this one as well. sam might be difficult to get ahold of, but he responds well to IM on the vortex. look up his screen name.
*Test & Analysis:*
*Conclusion:*

================================================ 
*Problem*
Speaking of trannies... I also don't plan on converting the car to run the hydraulic tranny that mates with the G60, I planned on rebuilding and using my solid shift bunny tranny.
*Hypothesis:*
Of course I'll look in to changing the internals if I plan on producing an extreme amount of power. The bolt up should be direct as far as I have found otherwise... (Anyone?) I think the last owner of the cabby put a diesel tranny in it by mistake anyway. They said the old one went out on them and they had one put in from another car. Thing is, at around 65mph on the (120mph max) cluster, I'm actually rolling along around 40 something. That coincidently enough is about the same spot as about 45 or near there is on a diesel (85mph max) cluster. Either they put the wrong speedo in, or I have a diesel gearing. I am going to have to crawl under there or wait til I pull the stock motor out to check the stamping. If it is a diesel tranny, I might be able to get away without changing out the gears huh? Thoughts?
*Test & Analysis:*
*Conclusion:*

================================================ 
*Problem*
What about the Control Bypass Valve? [see diagram above] What do I use for that?
*Hypothesis:*
(order the one from the 1.4 TSI and modify it to work here?) Fabricate my own? How do I control it?
*Test & Analysis:*
*Conclusion:*

================================================ 
*Problem*
What is my boost mapping going to look like for a setup like this?
Is that going to be complicated or just based on overall boost?
*Hypothesis:*
*Test & Analysis:*
*Conclusion:*

================================================ 
*Problem*
E85
*Hypothesis:*
Might not work too well… It has been suggested to me that 18psi is the “safest” to run on pump gas, without detonation. E85 might not be able to meet that requirement.
*Test & Analysis:*
*Conclusion:*

================================================
*Reference Sources*
- Here's a pretty good write-up on how the 1.4 TSI works...
- Green Earth Technologies for green motor lubricant and cleaners
- Green Filter USA Lifetime warranty vs. K&N's million mile warranty. Well I know that's a stretch, but meh... K&N also over dips their rubber edge seal, blocking more of the breather area. While most of the Green's I have seen are nicely clean and not spilling over in to the breather area. Just a small OCD thing I noticed.
- What ever happened with these "Green Tires" I wonder?
- Squire's Rear Mount Turbo Systems The external mounting of this system helps to cool the turbo and keep the hot air out of the engine bay. Plus the metal hosing acts as an IC, cooling the air as it passes through the externally cooled piping. This system also reduces turbo lag, almost making my charger setup null. 
- VWVortex News Article on the Golf 1.4 TSI with diagrams and specs.
*Stuff already acquired... *
*The Basics: *
- The car: 1984 Cabby








- The engine: Stock 1.8 G60 well technically it doesn’t have the charger on it atm, so I guess we will call it a forged 1.8 (to be rebuilt fully and turbo added) 
- The wheels: 13" 2-piece Ronal basket weave (don't remember the exact model) Boy, do I need to clean those!








- G60 stock IC 
- Working stock A/C (yup I'm going performance and cool - suck it) 
*Extras acquired: *
- GT Grant Mahogany 
- New Duckbill (old one has cornering rash) 
- Some seemingly custom One-of-a-kind tubular steel bumpers I pulled off this other rabbit I bought cheap in Baltimore








- PIAA HID ballast kit (not sure what I'm going to do with this, since I don't have a housing to use it with properly)
- HELLA OE flat lens headlight housing 
- Kamei Factory OE Hood Scoupe (ahhhh fresh cabin air!!!) Used to belong to aKaBigMike, then acquired at Benbuilt4u’s shop. No Burkee, you still can’t have it back!









*Planned to acquire: *
- Turbo of course (but what kind, what size, blah)
- Roots Charger (the engine I got was just a 60 basically, it didn't have the G-ladder charger with it, just the brackets and everything else.)
- Hosing will more than likely be supplied by Henry's Engineering in Maryland. They are one of the East Coast's Leading manufacturers and resellers of Aeroquip high pressure hosing and fittings. A long time family friend owns the place, another long time family friend works there, as well as my Dad works there... can you say HOOK-UPS!?
- Flowmaster 44 Series Muffler 2.5" for that DEEP tone and high flow. (3" won't fit up and over the rear u-arm, unless I get REALLY creative with the body and cutting some channels.)
- Flowmaster Hushpower II Resonator 2.5" to reduce that rasp and enhanced the 44 Series deep rich sound. (3" won't fit up and over the rear u-arm, unless I get REALLY creative with the body and cutting some channels.)
- Where the hell can I score a syncro/4motion/quattro drive train for this damn thing? Yea, I kind of have dreams to add this to the list as well, but that's a BIG dream. AWD cabby!?- I'll add more as I think of it... 
- Thinking about getting air temp sensors/gauges for each section of induction hosing, as well as just inside the intake opening; to monitor air temp as it travels the hosing. This might help me improve the heating issues stated above.
- *For live monitoring/car audio control/video and more… BEHOLD Carputer Heaven!*
- Mini-ITX Automotive Chassis
-  MSI Industrial LX800 Mini-ITX Mainboard – booting OS from [url=http://www.logicsupply.com/products/ts1gcf100i]compact flash – running my custom stripped down Windows XP
- 8” in-dash touch screen
- Vag-Com with USB dongle, always connected and logging to the internal carputer’s 40-pin IDE Flash Module
- If I go with opting to not use the Stock ECU, and use a stand-alone instead, then the carputer will monitor that systems software, and Vag-Com is a moot point.

Thanks to all who have helped so far…
- My wifee, Maux (like faux), for being the awesomestest wifee evar, not nagging about the car, and actually pushing me to get it finished.
- My dad for getting me first interested in vdubs.
- My Brother-in-Law badazzgti88 for his advice and more
- DuncMan for advice
- 2bluejettacoupe for donating many of the parts, and for being and awesome friend
- Cort for being an awesome long time friend as well, and busting my balls with my supposedly stupid idea to build a TSI. Meh, I’ll show you sucka!
- aKaBigMike for first fully introducing me into the vdub tuning realm. He was the first person in VA to flag me down on the road, and is how I made friends in a state I knew very few people. And for making me fix his VRcoupe until 3am on the side of Rt.50 into Ocean City, MD. 
- Lil Tee, I didn’t forget about your influence. I don’t know your tex name though.
- turbopumpkin – Man, I don’t know your tex name either, but dayum, you have opened my eyes to some crazy fabricating and ish. I know anything is possible. You better believe I’m going to poke you from time to time on this one. Hope you don’t mind.
OK peeps, pick it apart! Go ahead, I don't mind. Now off to drink my last beer and fall asleep.

_Modified by termitesgraffix at 12:01 AM 5-5-2008_


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 2:06 AM 5-14-2008_


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## JIMBO ROBERTS (Jul 31, 2004)

Good Luck on your project, using the VW TSI as the basis for the hardwear will be the way to go. The most diffucult part will be the tuning of course. Keep us posted on your progress!


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## akabigmike (May 2, 2003)

*Re: (JIMBO ROBERTS)*


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (akabigmike2)*

akabigmike2??? what happened to your other login son? You forget how to view forgotten password or something? Some angry hooligan from downtown after you?















to you! Miss ya bro... come visit.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (termitesgraffix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_It was suggested to me by CanaryRadoG60 (not sure his vortex name), on the Strictly European Autosport forums to go with a 16v conversion for extra flow. Thanks for the advice mate, I’m going to look in to acquiring the parts.


F**K a 16v head, if you are going to be swapping out heads, do it right and use an AEB 20v head

_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_Hell, I may even attempt to find seal and hose kits for this to take E85. The thought of a green performance car had crossed my mind. 


E85 is a scam, thinking it is "Green" is not a good reason to use it...

_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_
*Problem*
Stock G60 ECU re-chipping/reprogramming, MegaSquirt, other piggyback system, or standalone?


Standalone would be your best bet http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_
*Problem*
E85
*Hypothesis:*
Might not work too well… It has been suggested to me that 18psi is the “safest” to run on pump gas, without detonation. E85 might not be able to meet that requirement.


E85 has an octane of ~ 105 which means it would resist detonation better than pump gas which has an octane rating of ~ 87-93... Not to mention there are other ways of reducing detonation like alcohol injection, and lowering the C.R. more
Good luck with your build http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
F**K a 16v head, if you are going to be swapping out heads, do it right and use an AEB 20v head








That would certainly require me running a standalone on this setup then, yes? Man, that's a thought though... Not sure that would mate with this block though. I guess I need to also look up the bolt pattern and oil/water channel locations to see if they match. Man, I think you just cost me another million dollars and year of work.









_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_E85 is a scam, thinking it is "Green" is not a good reason to use it...

Agreed, but it looks good at tax time. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I doubt I'm going to go that route anyway. Was more of just an added thought really.

_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Good luck with your build http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Thanks


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (termitesgraffix)*

I didn't have a chance to read your entire thread yet, but have you seen Rokka's 1.8TG60?
I saw you are going to use the 020 trans. I have to say, that is suicidal...

_Quote, originally posted by *fastslc* »_http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=L39bwtJeMuc
Read carefully !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!















http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_I didn't have a chance to read your entire thread yet, but have you seen Rokka's 1.8TG60? I saw you are going to use the 020 trans. I have to say, that is suicidal...

Oh, he's already done it! Nice! I'm going to hit him up for some advice. Thing I saw though was, he apparently has his charger running always and dragging the engine down. I plan on using the electro-magnetic clutch method to disengage the charger. I don't want to have to rebuild every 3K like he is either.







Yea, I'm still not sure what I'm going to do about the tranny, maybe I'll talk to Rokka. His setup looks nice though. Good lookin' out! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (termitesgraffix)*

I am not sure where his orig build thread was, but I thought he was using some sort of a viscous coupling for the charger. ...unless that was one of my bad dreams of me thinking how I will be able to rev my 2L20v G60 to 8500 RPM


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_I am not sure where his orig build thread was

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2075109


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (termitesgraffix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_
Not sure that would mate with this block though. I guess I need to also look up the bolt pattern and oil/water channel locations to see if they match. Man, I think you just cost me another million dollars and year of work.










I got ya covered my man








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1674618


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
I got ya covered my man








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1674618

Apparently your search fu is faster than mine...


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## badazzgti88 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (termitesgraffix)*

dale don't run a 20v head. 16v is fine and much cheaper and you'll make great ph.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (badazzgti88)*

Oh, and did i sugest an eaton charger yet


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

I've got a few cents to throw into the cookie jar.
Second problem. The TSI uses a magnetic clutch on the supercharger to disengage it for when the turbo is spooled. Finding a pulley that can adequately handle the torque/power required by the supercharger will be a problem. Mercedes might have something that would work but you'll run into belt compatibility and diameter problems.
Realistically the TSI setup is used for a blower to spool up a turbo that would otherwise have significant lag on the setup. The 1.4TSI without a blower would have poor turbo response, but you're building a 1.8 so the turbo you can use is going to be much bigger. I would say at the least something like a GT28R. You could save some money and get a T3 super 60 or something, they'll have worse boost response but that wont matter much with a blower to spool it up. Something in the 250hp range would suit you nicely I think. Still, probably past upper limit for an 020 transmission with any chance of reliability.
I would also advise against E85 because it throws lots of problems into the equation that will make life really difficult. Also as a personal opinion from what I have researched about it, it's not as green as you'd like to think it is.
You're going to need something with significantly more sophistication than a G60 ECU. It simply doesn't have enough programmable outputs to control everything that needs controlling.
Boost mapping: Basically you'll have the blower run up to a set RPM and disengage. The manifold pressure there will be dictated by blower drive speed. After that, the ECU/wastegate will control manifold pressure for the turbo.


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (RipCity Euros)*

yeah he stated a roots type at the top. Im planning on doing the same thing with my vr. im looking at the eatons and Im getting mixed reviews as to which supercharger I must use. I have a GT40R that I hope I can use without possibly overpowering the supercharger. I would also recommend water/meth injection when running this.


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: MK1 Cabby 1.8 TG60 (rosecityromper)*

and about the clutch if you see the diagrams on the TSI, you can see that it uses a centrifugal charger, which spins much faster than a roots type. do you think the clutch could manage an eaton as he stated he would use?


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

All good points. I was thinking of using the clutch from the 1.4 TSI, if it was able to handle the same RPM and torque for the charger I would use. Another thought that came to mind was altering an A/C clutch pulley. Pulley ratios could easily be offset by the mated block-side pulley. The clutch pulley will be mounted at the block, and the charger will have a standard pulley. I will offset the clutch pulleys size with a larger or smaller charger pulley. Blah, I think I got a bit redundant there... Anyway, thanks for the advice. Well taken.
Everyone has been downing the 020, and I don't blame them. Question is, what should I use then? Or should I just keep the 020 but find some place that will just replace the gears with heavier sets? I haven't even started to think about gear ratios to power band yet at ALL!


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

I think if your gonna drop the money into this project anyway, expect to spend a little more on a cable shift conversion. O2J.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (Geoff Rood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Geoff Rood* »_You could save some money and get a T3 super 60 or something, they'll have worse boost response but that wont matter much with a blower to spool it up. 

The charger doesnt spool the turbo on a twin charged motor.


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

I beg to differ. Running twice as much air into the engine at low RPM's produces twice as much exhaust gas energy which helps cut down spool time of a larger turbocharger.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (Geoff Rood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Geoff Rood* »_I beg to differ. Running twice as much air into the engine at low RPM's produces twice as much exhaust gas energy which helps cut down spool time of a larger turbocharger.

Fair enough, i thought you were refering to the outlet of the supercharger feeding into the turbo spooling it...


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

Correct... The idea behind this is to give more instant bottom end torque, to get your moving quicker, while at the same time produce more exhaust output to spool the turbo faster. In a sense "the charger spools the turbo faster" is a correct statement, but it is indirectly doing so. Once the turbo starts to boost, the charger will disengage and free spin, so to not take power away from the turbo's production. The air at this point is not going through the charger anymore, so you won't get a windmill action, the air will be traveling via the bypass valve, straight to the turbo.
I'm willing to bet that if Rokka does this with his setup, he could squeeze another 10-20 ponies outta his setup. And he won't be rebuilding his charger as often. I'm wondering what mine will produce. Time will tell. Rokka, if you are looking at your PMs, hit me back! I have questions!


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 7:05 PM 5-4-2008_


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

so are you saying there is a way to disengage the supercharger without having a magnetic clutch on it? just use a bypass valve or wastegate?


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

Nope. As the diagram above shows... There is a magnetic clutch pulley, separate from that of the charger pulley. The clutch pulley is placed in the crank belt system, and the charger connects to the clutch pulley with a separate belt. Essentially, the clutch pulley has two pulleys on it. To offset the RPM ratios, you would either change the charger pulley size, or the secondary clutch pulley size. Look at the diagram very closely and you will see what I mean. The control bypass valve is also included, to allow the air to route around the now free spinning charger. Again, see the diagram above.
In summary, the magnetic clutch is not attached to the charger at all.
Good questions though.


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 7:40 PM 5-4-2008_


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

what is the diagram that you're speaking of? not the air flow diagram I hope.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

Yup, the airflow diagram. Notice where it says "electromagnetic clutch"... you will see another pulley attached to and right next to it, with a belt going to the crank pulley. Why do you hope "not the air flow diagram"? Is the line pointing to the clutch confusing? I can alter it to make more sense if need be.


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:02 PM 5-4-2008_


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

I was hoping there was an incredibly specific one that showed how it works. but no worries, i understand how it works now. is there a picture of the clutch though?


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

Ah, I see. Yea, it pretty much looks like an A/C Compressor Clutch. I'll see if I can dig up this particular one though, and get back to you.
Maybe one of our brothers in the European local would chime in and provide us with a picture they took...










_Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:06 PM 5-4-2008_


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## Synclo (May 19, 2005)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

I like where this is going, i was going to do a twin charged cabby a year ago, but plans changed.
I was going to use a mercedes charger out of an slk230, it has an electromagnetic clutch attached to the pulley, i was thinking if you hooked the wire up to an rpm sensor, and had it cut power to it to disengage the clutch at a certain rpm (say 3000) then that would work...the only problem with that charger is the pulley is pretty big and only produces about 6psi of boost.
Good luck with the build http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
*edit* picture of the charger










_Modified by Chet Ubetcha at 8:07 PM 5-4-2008_


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

Compliments of VWVortex.com Volkswagen News Article. Thanks guys, YOU RAWK!
OK, this kind of shows it, but is a bit small. See the charger system to the left, and the clutch pulley to the right. The open belt loop on the charger side is what wraps around the clutch side (right).








Up close, you can see them mated and how the clutch connects.








Full article on the 1.4 TSI
http://www.vwvortex.com/cgi-bi...ter=1



_Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:14 PM 5-4-2008_


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

hmm, thats cool. I wish there was a way of doing it just by using some sort of pulley tensioner system, like non magnetic clutch type. but it seems they may be easy to get a hold of considering they came out of the slk's.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

I found a 16V 2.0 head at a local junkyard and went to pull it off last weekend. Looks like it's using the 12-point old style head bolts. Hmm, looks like Sears doesn't have the 12-point bit I need to pull the head off, or am I just not looking for the right name?
Anyone know a store that might be local, or an online place that would have this bit? Local would be perfect, so I can go get it tomorrow.
12-point (looks like Torx on crack)

Edit: NVM!!! Enough determination and Google-fu brings the answer. Triple Square 12mm
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_1...0000P
Yay me! Off to Sears again, and here's to hoping they are in stock.
And an AMAZING THANKS to VgRt6 for posting...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1208194 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:56 PM 5-9-2008_


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

that should be a sticky thread lol. so is that cabby going to be a 1.8 16 valve? if so that'll be dopedydope.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

Yea, I'm grabbing the head to work with. I'm leaning more toward 16v, but if a 20v should fall in to my lap, who am I to turn it away? But, yea, I'm going to go snag that 16v 2.0 head tomorrow, and mate it to my 1.8 block. I'm thinking the 16v intake might make for a bit more clearance to mount the turbo as well. BONUS


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

Actually, I believe the 16v head has less air flow restriction than that of the twenty valve. So you might wanna stick with the 16 valve. I have my complete 9a and I just picked up an ABA block yesterday. so I'm starting my TSI build next week hopefully








maybe we can bounce off each other


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rosecityromper* »_Actually, I believe the 16v head has less air flow restriction than that of the twenty valve. So you might wanna stick with the 16 valve. 

Naw









_Quote, originally posted by *rosecityromper* »_I have my complete 9a and I just picked up an ABA block yesterday. so I'm starting my TSI build next week hopefully







maybe we can bounce off each other
















Make a build thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

my bad, i was talking about the vr head compared with the 16v head














thank you ripcity, you never fail to amaze me


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

wait a second, these are 1.8 16v heads where is the comparison between a 2.0 litre 16v head and and a 20v head? and what about comparisons between lets say an AWW head or AWD assuming the large port 1.8T head is an AWP...


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rosecityromper* »_so I'm starting my TSI build next week hopefully







maybe we can bounce off each other
















Works for me. The more the merrier. Agreed with RipCity Euros though, start a thread, and we can follow each other's threads.
RipCity Euros, like rosecityromper said, do you have the 2.0 16v head graphed? I'm doing a 2.0 top end not 1.8.
Rosecityromper, if you find a place to source the European 1.4 magnetic pulley, and the bypass valve from, let me know.


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

i found both the bypass valve as well as the electric clutch. Both parts come from an SLK230 kompressor:
Part No. for bypass valve: 111 098 00 09
Part No. for Electric Clutch: 111 097 01 28
the bypass valve is made by VDO and sorry to say, the electric clutch is a genuine mercedes part.














Hope that helps...


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

Mey, it's all German to me. I don't mind sourcing from other makes. The oil cooler I'm using is out of an old Volvo wagon. It's in really nice shape too. I'm going to clean it up later. Thanks for the info too.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_

RipCity Euros, like rosecityromper said, do you have the 2.0 16v head graphed? I'm doing a 2.0 top end not 1.8.


In stock form, the intake of the 1.8 flows better than that of the 2.0. Whereas the exhaust of the 2.0 flows better than that of the 1.8 (Talking about 16v of course) This is why lots of people put 1.8 16v heads on 2.0's. But if you are going to be doing any headwork, ive heard that the 2.0 is better to start off with because there is more material to work with. Heres a graph i found.
Stock 1.8 16v VS. stock 2.0 16v


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

wow thanks ripcity, Ive also heard its an advantage though if you keep your 16 valve head if your going to do cams, more possibilities, im doing an engine swap out of my wolfy, i was thinking it might be advantageous to use my 20 valve head, but knowing that im probably going to cam it anyway, im thinking of sticking with my 16 valve head. with that said, 1.8t parts for sale!!


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rosecityromper* »_ with that said, 1.8t parts for sale!!










AEB


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

no


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

P.O. is pissed, project is gonna have to wait, other than that, project just got much easier.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rosecityromper* »_P.O. is pissed, project is gonna have to wait, other than that, project just got much easier.









To the OP (not to be confused with P.O.







) Any new updates/ decisions in the build?


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

I dont know about him but Ive been talking to some of those crazy eaton gurus lol and they said that a magnetic clutch is unnecessary. none of the GMs had it and neither did the fords, just make sure that the charger snout has oil in it. and when it comes to a bypass valve, there is one that is integrated into the throttle body on the G60s which I did not know.


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

just thought I'd share this...


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

So that diagram is a bit off from what I was planning on doing? I'm sort of following it, but some of the lines seem to not make sense. I take it, that is an Air in, to Turbo, to IC, to SC, to IC, to Intake?


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_







To the OP (not to be confused with P.O.







) Any new updates/ decisions in the build?

Nothing exciting, but I got my 2.0 16v head out of a 91 automatic Passat yesterday. I may have to trade the upper passenger mount intake for a driver side, since my car is driver mounted. It all depends on how I run the plumbing I suppose.








Still haven't decided on tranny yet.
PS: Punching broken windows at junkyards is a STUPID idea! "Kids, don't try it." You bleed, LOTS! I had to wrap my hand with my shop rag. It's worse than it looks after I cleaned it up. Preeeeetty deep!










_Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:39 PM 5-13-2008_


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

So are you planning on any headwork for the 2.0 head?


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

yeah thats something I would like to know as well


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

Oh yea, I'm not leaving much as stock on this one. First, I need to get the seized exhaust mani bolts out. I started on it tonight. Got two out, but rounded the chuck side of my extruder bit!!! Guess my new drill is too much for it.







I need to go back to Harbor Freight and see if tears work for the cute girl working there.
The Headwork:
Not too sure yet. Of course the stereotypical things one does for sure... Port, polish, CLEAN, replace seals, blah blah! CAMS, not sure about this either. I've seen it suggested all over to use 260's. For sure, heavier springs will be added if I upgrade, and shorter seals if I go above 260. MJM Autohaus is right down the street from me, and we have our monthly meets there, so I figure I'll go talk to them, and see what they say. They have a set of Intake: 0.2mm x 252 / Exhaust: 10.9mm x 264 there that I was looking at. Not really head work, but I have considered looking up using a timing chain instead of belt, converting the pulleys to sprockets. That's going a bit over the top, but might a nice piece of mind to know I will be less likely to have a broken belt in the far off future.
I was reading this post about using a dual out mani (up-side-down) as a custom turbo mani, with some custom fabricating for an adapter. That shouldn't be too hard to make, but the flipping up-side-down part wouldn't work unless I chopped off the flanges and welded them back on. That's a big no-no for me. Weld cast!? NO. Maybe I'll make a mani of my own. Then I can just sell the dual out mani and DP that came off the head I have here. Money for the project = good!
emachineshop.com FTW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I LOVE THIS SITE!!!
The night starts off right, with the two most useful liquids in my garage... My WD40 and my Brandy. Could it get any better!?








Now, ON WITH THE CUTTING! Bolts rounding, won't come out? Just cut them... you can always get them out later. That's what they all say...








Well, I got two out... then the extruder rounded in my drill. Off to the store this weekend.








WARNING, DO NOT OPERATE HEAVY MACHINERY UNDER THE INFLUENCE... "Shop fuel" Hey, it's just how I do...
On a serious note... I DO NOT CONDONE the consumption of alcohol while working in the garage. I merely sip on this while I work. Be responsible people!


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

Do you know if you have to notch the pistons? I know that you have to notch when running a 16v head on an ABA block with cams...


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

I THINK I only have to notch if I go above 260... Once I get the bolts out, and get this cleaned up, i will take the head to my friend's machine shop and measure the clearance. *crosses fingers* I am not looking forward to notching. To be honest. Since lower compression is better for boost, I was contemplating fabricating a spacer to put between the head and block, so I could run larger cams for duration, while lowering compression. A bit over the top, yes, but something I am looking at.
Any thoughts anyone?


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_Since lower compression is better for boost, I was contemplating fabricating a spacer to put between the head and block, so I could run larger cams for duration, while lowering compression. A bit over the top, yes, but something I am looking at.
Any thoughts anyone?

Not a good idea, actually, the G60 is 8:1 stock, and putting a 16v head on lowers the CR 1.8:1 points which gives you a final CR of 6.2:1 which is actually too low even for boost. You may have to get custom pistons.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
Not a good idea, actually, the G60 is 8:1 stock, and putting a 16v head on lowers the CR 1.8:1 points which gives you a final CR of 6.2:1 which is actually too low even for boost. You may have to get custom pistons.

It's advice like this that made me want to post here in the first place. Thanks man!
Should I stroke it or plain the head to bring the compression up? Plain might make more sense, since I won't be killing my redline with too much reciprocating mass. Taller pistons even maybe? Interference is a problem with either way though.


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 1:32 AM 5-14-2008_


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

I would get a set of these
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_...n_Set


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

You sir, are A-OK in my book.
FYI: I have started building This site as a diary to all my projects.


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 1:53 AM 5-14-2008_


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

FYI, I did a test at work a while back running an OEM A/C compressor at 11k rpm for 750 hours. It had a magnetic clutch that I engaged and disengaged every 45 minutes (on a timer). The total power draw at the magnetic clutch was 25 HP. The clutch would grab instantaneously and jump the compressor from 0 rpm to ~11k rpm in less than a second.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_FYI, I did a test at work a while back running an OEM A/C compressor at 11k rpm for 750 hours. It had a magnetic clutch that I engaged and disengaged every 45 minutes (on a timer). The total power draw at the magnetic clutch was 25 HP. The clutch would grab instantaneously and jump the compressor from 0 rpm to ~11k rpm in less than a second.

Nice! Did it last or wear out? Was the 750 hours just your test time, or is that how long the clutch lasted? "Less than a second"... hopefully, should I use an A/C clutch, it wouldn't be a noticeable change from turbo boost, back to charger when dropping RPMs.
Not only is "what clutch to use" a big problem, but how do I control it is something I need to look at. What will actuate the clutch... I double megasquirt has that as part of their programming. Maybe I can get them to work something up for me. 


_Modified by termitesgraffix at 1:58 AM 5-14-2008_


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

UPDATE: Plan for that oil cooler...
I don't plan on tapping the oil pan and using engine heated oil. More than likely I will have a separate oil system for the turbo. I plan on using an electric pump to pump the oil to the turbo, and into a small chamber, with a small oil filter attached. Is there anything I should know about oil pressure to the turbo? Should it be left to siphon it's own oil, or is it ok to force oil in to it? The plan is to have a turbo timer to just run the electric oil pump and small fan, instead of running the entire engine after taking the key out. I take it, that this won't be worth it, since the turbo won't be spinning anymore, once the engine is off?


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

ill have to say thank you for that experiment, but one question, are you also implying that the drag on the engine from the supercharger is 25 hp? resulting in a 25 hp loss at cruising speed? because Im planning on using no more than a bypass valve because I find it hard to believe that a freespinning charger could have alot of drag on the engine...


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

Well, in theory, free-spinning may not cause loss of power, but the fact that it is still spinning, it should still be compressing air. Since you plan on not using the clutch, it won't be "free spinning" it will still be operating as it was before, but now there will also be air flowing directly to the turbo. Compressing air causes resistance, causes strain on the pulley/engine. I would think that just using a bypass valve would allow air to pass the charger, but it will still be sucking air in (or trying to) as it spins under engine power.


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_Well, in theory, free-spinning may not cause loss of power, but the fact that it is still spinning, it should still be compressing air. Since you plan on not using the clutch, it won't be "free spinning" it will still be operating as it was before, but now there will also be air flowing directly to the turbo. Compressing air causes resistance, causes strain on the pulley/engine. I would think that just using a bypass valve would allow air to pass the charger, but it will still be sucking air in (or trying to) as it spins under engine power.

yes but not compressing enough air to take into consideration. and yes after this bypass valve is closed, it will be directing air into the turbo directly, which is exactly what I want at those high RPMs.


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

OK try this link your build may take an easier route
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=27


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

my turbo hehe. I think it'll do just fine mated with a m90.


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *termitesgraffix* »_
Nice! Did it last or wear out? Was the 750 hours just your test time, or is that how long the clutch lasted? "Less than a second"... hopefully, should I use an A/C clutch, it wouldn't be a noticeable change from turbo boost, back to charger when dropping RPMs.
Not only is "what clutch to use" a big problem, but how do I control it is something I need to look at. What will actuate the clutch... I double megasquirt has that as part of their programming. Maybe I can get them to work something up for me. 


The clutch itself didn't wear out, but the bearing failed and cause the whole thing to lock up. The A/C compressor was designed for a 5k rpm continuous operation with intermittent jumps to 10k rpm. I ran it full tilt to see if it would last.
Without the clutch engaged the pulley is just free spinning, so you can consider the power loss to be essentially zero. 25 hp is what my application used and the only way to know what power yours would use is to look at the compressor maps.
Also, to actuate the clutch all you need is 12v switched power. An RPM based or boost based switch would probably work easy enough.


_Modified by Mr. Tickles at 7:03 PM 5-14-2008_


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## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*

so essentially a hobbs switch?


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## badazzgti88 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: (rosecityromper)*

updates any?


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## CanadianCabby (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (badazzgti88)*

since the thread isover a year old im gonna say no


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## badazzgti88 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: (CanadianCabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CanadianCabby* »_since the thread isover a year old im gonna say no

so your saying people stop building car's after a year







plus this is my bother-in-laws thread. He lives in texas, i just wanted to see if anyone else has had any luck.


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## CanadianCabby (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (badazzgti88)*

a lot of people give up on projects when they run into something difficult or get bored... thats why you see so many projects for sale... had no idea it was your brother in laws car though.. i hope hes still working on it... twin charging is a cool concept


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## badazzgti88 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: (CanadianCabby)*

i think it's in the planing stage right now but he's gonna start soon. i think he's been collecting parts


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (badazzgti88)*

omg, I wrote up a HUGE response and it was lost to invalid world! I'll write it up again in a bit.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

OK, I need to get back to work... I'll write it up again later.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

Yuppers, Mike is correct. This is still being planned, slowly. I'm in no hurry to be "the first kid on the block" to finish. Hell, it's not like it's the first time it's been done anyway. True, vortex history would prove that many people give up due to money, time, and finicky habits. I like to think of myself as a patient completer. Besides, the more people give me crap about it, the more I want to get it done. What a better way to get more crap, than to take longer.








CanadianCabby: Nope, no problems just yet, still trying to figure out a few major details. A friend upgraded his turbo and offered to give me his old t3/t4 (might be a bit large for this); I need to grab it the next time I visit Virginia. Also, found a Mercedes charger with the clutch pulley already attached. Thought that would be an easy combo win, but I may consider going with a smaller charger in the end. There is a company I'm looking at, that has air-tight valves. Need to get a price quote from them. This will cost more than using an exhaust cut-out for the air-bypass, but should hold more boost after the switch-over.
OK, I lied, there were a couple hurdles... My daily 84 GTI finally called it quits after 332,000 original engine miles. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3033811 Had to tear her down and rebuild her. Some hurdles hit that work along the way; one of which is work and home time. All in due time I say. The next is my habit for buying cars. Picked up an 85 944 N/A and 88 Scirocco 16v. The Rocco was going to be my back-up, to pull the GTI off the road and clean here up. Well, the Rocco wasn't done in time, the 944 is nowhere near ready for driving, and I'm without a working car. The lil woman and I just carpool all the time. Oh wait, another problem? Her '04 ML500 decided that before we went from Texas to Maryland (to visit my family, badazzgti88 included) it would need some work. New tires, 100K mile tune-up, 16 spark plugs @ about $6-9 each, 9-quarts of Synthetic oil change, engine mounts, and brakes. This took a chunk out of my build budget. Oh well, start saving again.
Next, we are in the middle of planning for a new home (building). I've about had it with the HOA, and I need more space to expand my mind. Hopefully we can be sold and on our way to the ranch by end of this or early next year. The 30x70, 40x60, and 30x40 garages already on the property we are looking at will be a nice touch.
Sure, I could do what everyone else does, "be a fanatic" and spend every last dime on this, and struggle by finishing the car now, but I'll stick to slow and steady.
I welcome the doubt. BRING IT! Will only make me want it more.


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (termitesgraffix)*

Ooh, look at jwatts' post 11:31 AM 3-29-2006 http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2521071


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