# How much power can the R32 DSG take?



## UNTS-1 (Nov 11, 2005)

Im thinking of turboing, well not thinking it's just a matter of time.
Anyways my main concern is the DSG failing which I'm sure warranty wont cover. Im thinking of the 400whp kit from c2 motorsports which I think is around 450nm/333ft will the standard DSG hold for every day driving with a couple of track days a year? Or does it need to be upgraded?? What/where can I get upgrades for the DSG and how much do they roughly cost?

Thanks


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (UNTS-1)*

There are a number of threads on this. Use the search option for more info.


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## UNTS-1 (Nov 11, 2005)

can u link me to a thread because I have searched


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (UNTS-1)*

Maximum rated *Torque* is 258lb/ft. Your mileage may vary.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (Slickvic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slickvic* »_Maximum rated *Torque* is 258lb/ft. Your mileage may vary.


http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Stock clutches 400 wheel hp and wheel ft-lbs of torque.


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (Slickvic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slickvic* »_Maximum *rated* Torque is 258lb/ft. 

That more like it.


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## labelskate (May 20, 2007)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_

http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Stock clutches 400 wheel hp and wheel ft-lbs of torque.

not that I don't believe that DSG is a lot stronger then 258 tq, where did you get this information?


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I'm glad you asked. Most people just toss around numbers.
I got the information from HPA who makes upgraded turbo kits for the R32, as well as upgraded DSG clutches and tuning. They have stated you do not need to upgrade the clutches until you near or surpass this power level. I've also explored several other European chip tuning message boards where people have found limits by testing several applications on their own. They've all seemed to stated the same 400ft-lbs level.


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

The DSG is rated for a max continuous input of 350 Nm = 258 lb torque. 
HPA's DSG torque assessment is for INTERMITTENT use and is based on what the OE DSG clutch can handle for short bursts, NOT continuous use. So yes you can get away with reasonable power increases but expect faster clutch wear and more maintenance. 
Above 400 lb torque you have no choice but to use heavier DSG clutches or you'll just burn up the clutches. You are still inputting a lot more torque than the gears and bearings were designed for so they too will wear and could fail prematurely. There are no guarantees once you exceed the design limits of the trans.
This has all been posted in other threads if you use the search function.


_Modified by raceware at 6:25 AM 5-15-2008_


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_The DSG is rated for a max continuous input of 350 Nm = 258 lb torque.

You do realize the stock BPY 2.0T engine is rated for a max continuous input of 207ft-lbs. 
I've been researching this for a while and have found there are many long term DSG HPA r32 turbo users from 2005 still going strong today who are under the 400ft-lbs power level. Have you found anything different? If even one of those has started to slip or was destroyed, I'd personally be pretty cautious. I'd like to find as many examples of good and bad as I can to help back up any claims being made. 


_Modified by Arin at 6:29 AM 5-15-2008_


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (labelskate)*


_Quote, originally posted by *labelskate* »_
not that I don't believe that DSG is a lot stronger then 258 tq, where did you get this information? 

Page 2 of book "The 02E Direct Shift Gearbox - Design and function"
Audi self study program course number 951403
ISBN 0-8376-1289-6
Copyright May 2004
http://www.bentleypublishers.c...=au44


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (Slickvic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slickvic* »_
Page 2 of book "The 02E Direct Shift Gearbox - Design and function"
Audi self study program course number 951403
ISBN 0-8376-1289-6
Copyright May 2004
http://www.bentleypublishers.c...=au44



Oh, gee, now you've gone and done it ! No technical information is allowed to be posted in tech forums. People get all spastic when technical facts are used in technical discussions. We all know that the factory lies about these things.








If somebody online says you can run 400 ft/lbs. torque, it must be true, right?


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (TechMeister)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TechMeister* »_

Oh, gee, now you've gone and done it ! No technical information is allowed to be posted in tech forums. People get all spastic when technical facts are used in technical discussions. We all know that the factory lies about these things.








If somebody online says you can run 400 ft/lbs. torque, it must be true, right?










The question asked is "How much power can the R32 DSG Take?", not "What does the factory rate for the DSG.". From the factory, the R32 is rated power = about 250hp. This is what the manufacturer has determined to be a safe power level for repeatable, long lasting life the engine, as well as many other factors such as insurance, emissions, sound, maintenance intervals, etc. This does not mean the maximum power the R32 can handle is 250. All that number means is that version of the DSG will probably not be installed in any vehicles above that power level. 
HPA has extensively tested the DSG and has found no need to upgrade the weaker components such as the clutch packs unless you near 400 hp.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

http://forums.audiworld.com/tt...phtml


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## JaxACR (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (Arin)*

FWIW, the new TT-S is rated at 350Nm (258 ft. lb.) of torque. It is available with DSG, which is also rated for 350Nm. I think even VW/Audi realizes that this transmission is capable of more than what it's rated at. They wouldn't produce a car whose engine is operating right at the power threshold of the transmission, especially when the 2.0T's power is rated conservatively by VW/Audi.


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## labelskate (May 20, 2007)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (JaxACR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JaxACR* »_FWIW, the new TT-S is rated at 350Nm (258 ft. lb.) of torque. It is available with DSG, which is also rated for 350Nm. I think even VW/Audi realizes that this transmission is capable of more than what it's rated at. They wouldn't produce a car whose engine is operating right at the power threshold of the transmission, especially when the 2.0T's power is rated conservatively by VW/Audi.

are all DSG's the same?


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (labelskate)*


_Quote, originally posted by *labelskate* »_
are all DSG's the same?

I Found this on a U.K. forum:
"A little information about DSG and its ability to handle more power/torque etc and to put to bed the general assumption that it can't.
The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.
Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.
HGP also produce a Single Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.
Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydraulic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
forces and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.
The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.
I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque."






















_Modified by Slickvic at 4:17 AM 5-19-2008_


_Modified by Slickvic at 4:21 AM 5-19-2008_


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: How much power can the R32 DSG take? (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_

The question asked is "How much power can the R32 DSG Take?", not "What does the factory rate for the DSG.". From the factory, the R32 is rated power = about 250hp. This is what the manufacturer has determined to be a safe power level for repeatable, long lasting life the engine, as well as many other factors such as insurance, emissions, sound, maintenance intervals, etc. This does not mean the maximum power the R32 can handle is 250. All that number means is that version of the DSG will probably not be installed in any vehicles above that power level. 
HPA has extensively tested the DSG and has found no need to upgrade the weaker components such as the clutch packs unless you near 400 hp. 

FWIW, when a transmission is designed it is engineered to handle a specific amount of torque. The DSG in the current VW models is rated at 350 nm. That's the amount of torque we know it can handle under normal use. Transmissions are NOT rated in HP. They are rated for torque capacity. HP is a mathematical function of torque and time. You can have a 400 HP engine that only produces 100 lbs. of torque or you can have a 400 HP engine that produces 2000 lbs. of torque.
Some companies lower turbo output, i.e. torque to minimize the chance of failure in the lower gears of the DSG. This helps but does not in any way increase the torque capacity of the trans.
Just because someone has operated the DSG behind a higher output engine, i.e. 400 HP does not mean the trans is designed to handle the load or that it will not suffer early failure as a result. Anecdotal info. is nice but it's just a reference point and not something you want to banter about because some folks will actually believe they can run 400 lbs. torque thru a DSG and not have any failures - which is unlikely over time.
So the only factual information we really know on the DSG is that it is designed to handle 350 nm torque. Everything else is speculation. By this I am not suggesting that you can't mod your engine if you have a DSG. All I'm saying is what we know is the torque capacity of the DSG as designed. Unless you have run instrumented durability testing on the DSG trans. you have no idea what reserve capacity exists. Speculating on what it can or can't handle for torque is a waste of energy as it doesn't mean much because it's just a wild a$$ guess.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

True, I guess they quoted 400hp as a general level they do not go over to suggest they do not run higher FT-LBS levels over a long power band. They were probably quoting that number based on their own kits so looking at those dyno plots may be a good idea to see the torque levels they feel comfortable offering to the public w/o upgrades. I believe they say up to 400lbs is pushing so keeping it at that level would not be advisable. I was told they limit boost onset on the DSG to ensure huge amount of torque is not slammed on the DSG during initial boost onset. 
Here are two of their kits that do not go over and advertised 400 hp.
http://www.hpamotorsport.com/i...o.jpg
http://www.hpamotorsport.com/i...o.jpg

Also, an interesting note is that 258 ft-lbs must be a crank figure, so at the wheels you are looking at a much lower number. Lastly 258 was the MAX they feel is safe I doubt they would ever consider running very close do that number as they are with the new TT. 
So, how much can the R32 DSG Take? Dunno, but I'm sure it can 'TAKE' more than 258.

_Modified by Arin at 7:14 AM 5-19-2008_


_Modified by Arin at 7:15 AM 5-19-2008_


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Also, an interesting note is that 258 ft-lbs must be a crank figure, so at the wheels you are looking at a much lower number. Lastly 258 was the MAX they feel is safe I doubt they would ever consider running very close do that number as they are with the new TT. 
So, how much can the R32 DSG Take? Dunno, but I'm sure it can 'TAKE' more than 258.

_Modified by Arin at 7:14 AM 5-19-2008_

_Modified by Arin at 7:15 AM 5-19-2008_


As discussed previously there is a designed max continuous input of 350 nm for the current VW DSG. That means that you can input 350 nm without problems. The clutches are part of the OE 350 nm DSG design parameters. So if the clutches are the "weakest link" in the DSG then upgrading them will allow a little more torque input until you reach the next weakest link in the trans. which could be gears, bearings, shaft strength, etc. You just end up chasing the weakest link until you give up.


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## phildo69 (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (TechMeister)*

http://www.germancarzone.com/t....html
pretty extreme
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/0...m-all/


_Modified by phildo69 at 3:17 PM 5/22/2008_


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## geboost07 (Oct 6, 2006)

over here in germany there is a guy running 500 hp on dsg r32 mkv. when he does lc the damn needle on the rpm gauge bounces back and forth like a rally car its crazy!!!!. and it cost 700 euro(1000 dollars) to get you dsg reprogramed. and i think hes running hpa as well hopefully that clarified somethin


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (geboost07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *geboost07* »_over here in germany there is a guy running 500 hp on dsg r32 mkv. when he does lc the damn needle on the rpm gauge bounces back and forth like a rally car its crazy!!!!. and it cost 700 euro(1000 dollars) to get you dsg reprogramed. and i think hes running hpa as well hopefully that clarified somethin

More info please!
Looks like they have dropped their prices. Although its still very high, and some may argue it's still to high, $1000 fall more in line with chipping prices as far as high end, low volume applications go. 
What all does the reflash do?
From what I've gathered some of the main 'features' of these re-flashes would be:
-Redline shift points
-D/S normal driving shift points
-Quicker clutch activation/gear switching times
-Launch control launching RPM
Know of anything else?
Also, what other upgrades is this guy running on his transmission?


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## geboost07 (Oct 6, 2006)

yep what you said is correct heron which is a tunning shop in stuttgart can do the reprogram for you. its 800 for stg1 chip and 700 for dsg. i met the guy by chance at hockenheim racering oddly there was a apr stg3 gti as well. well long story short they both rode in each others car and they both voted the stg3 wouldnt stand a chance. also remember the mkv platform has been out for a way longer time in germany then the states .


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## ItalynStylion (Jun 30, 2008)

*Re: (geboost07)*

Is the DSG in question in this thread the same one that is on the Audio A3?


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## ZPrime (Mar 7, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Yes, the A3's DSG unit is the same as what they use in MKV Golfs and Jettas, as well as the Audi TT.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (ZPrime)*

So, would I theoratically be able to grab a 7 speed DSG off a TDI or TSI, put in on my 06 GLI, reprogram the TCM and go? I ask because I may need to replace my transmission soon (not from too much power), but I figure I may as well upgrade if I need to replace it. Think this would work?


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

7 speed DSG is rated for less torque than the 6 speed.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

Really... what's the 7 speed rated at? Which DSG version has the highest rating that would be swappable with the a MK5 2.0T?


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (joeyvdubGLI)*

The 7-speed DSG uses dry clutches and is rated at a max of 250Nm I believe. This translates to about 184 lb-ft. The 6-speed DSG, no matter what car it's found in, is rated at 350Nm.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Pelican18TQA4)*

Right on, thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## labelskate (May 20, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
More info please!
Looks like they have dropped their prices. Although its still very high, and some may argue it's still to high, $1000 fall more in line with chipping prices as far as high end, low volume applications go. 
What all does the reflash do?
From what I've gathered some of the main 'features' of these re-flashes would be:
-Redline shift points
-D/S normal driving shift points
-Quicker clutch activation/gear switching times
-Launch control launching RPM
Know of anything else?
Also, what other upgrades is this guy running on his transmission?

I'd pay $1000 for that in a second.


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## ItalynStylion (Jun 30, 2008)

*Re: (labelskate)*

**** I would too!
Can we get more info on that? I'd drive across the United States to get that done if I could find a place to do it. WE NEED MORE INFO!


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (ItalynStylion)*

Reference mk5 R32 DSG.
Re: 350nm max
This is the programmed limit, controlled by clutch pressure. If any more torque is applied, the input clutch will simply slip. This 'saves' the gearbox.
Max actual capability: ~650nm with ZERO hardware mods.
(~475lbft)
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Reference mk5 R32 DSG.
Re: 350nm max
This is the programmed limit, controlled by clutch pressure. If any more torque is applied, the input clutch will simply slip. This 'saves' the gearbox.
Max actual capability: ~650nm with ZERO hardware mods.
(~475lbft)
-Jeffrey Atwood

Jeffery are you saying the programmed limit can be changed so as to offer the full holding force?


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