# Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12***

Because this thread was resurrected and so many people are reading just the first page, I'm editing this post to avoid confusion.
Mobil 1 Supersyn is NOT a Group III oil, it is still Group IV based. It has consistently yielded BETTER analysis results than the old Trisynthetic formula, in both 1.8T cars and other engines.
-dbrowne1, 3/27/03


[Modified by dbrowne1, 9:27 PM 3-26-2003]


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## rub-a-vee-dub (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

what would you suggest a switch to?


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## rudyr (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (rub-a-vee-dub)*

If it's true I'd go with Amzoil.


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## RVs021.8T (Oct 11, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (rudyr)*

Hey dbrowne, does anyone know anything good or bad, about Mobil 1 15W-50 for our cars? I read the rear label and it says for "high performance turbocharged engines" That would be a chipped 1.8T right?


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

found this on that link too, this is what mobil says to use 
"The 5w-30 said it was for newer engines, the 10w-30 was for older engines and the 15w-50 was for high performance engines." Now I guess that woudl depend on what you refer to as a high performnce engine, but........

chris
[email protected]


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## Gabriel J (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif to mobil. They spent all that time proving castrol wrong, and now they are changing their own product to be "Mobil1-Syntec"
I think amsoil is a good way to go, but it's expensive and it's not at wal-mart like mobil 1.....damn shame.


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## RVs021.8T (Oct 11, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (chris86vw)*

quote:[HR][/HR]found this on that link too, this is what mobil says to use 
"The 5w-30 said it was for newer engines, the 10w-30 was for older engines and the 15w-50 was for high performance engines." Now I guess that woudl depend on what you refer to as a high performnce engine, but........

chris
[email protected][HR][/HR]​I will stick with 5W-30 to be safe.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (207gti)*

I was not fully understaing what the guy was saying on the MB site and not in the mood to research but what I got from that was teh tri snthetic will now hae a dino oil base stock, but the supersyn will be like the old tri synthetic, with a true synthetic base stock. Anyone else reading it like this?
granted if that is what thye are doing, i dont' think its right since many people will be tricked and just continue to buy the same stuff, but in that case you are talking about the people who are just buying it becuase they think its better and not really using it for its potential.
chris
[email protected]


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (207gti)*

quote:[HR][/HR] http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif to mobil. They spent all that time proving castrol wrong, and now they are changing their own product to be "Mobil1-Syntec"
.[HR][/HR]​Well, considering that they lost the industry board litigation on that one, it makes perfect sense. Mobil was trying to stop Castrol from marketing Group III oils as "Synthetic" because it allowed Castrol to market Syntec as such, and charge just as much as Mobil 1 for an oil that's cheaper to make.
Because Mobil lost, they have no reason to NOT use group III because they can still call it "Synthetic" and market it as such, and it's a lot cheaper than PAO and esters. 99.999% of buyers have no idea what a Group III or IV basestock is and they don't care either.
Real synthetics are going to become a niche product soon, with companies like Amsoil being the only ones left.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (RVs021.8T)*

quote:[HR][/HR]found this on that link too, this is what mobil says to use 
"The 5w-30 said it was for newer engines, the 10w-30 was for older engines and the 15w-50 was for high performance engines." Now I guess that woudl depend on what you refer to as a high performnce engine, but........

chris
[email protected]
I will stick with 5W-30 to be safe.[HR][/HR]​
hmm I guess it would really all depend on which direction you consider safe then.

chris
[email protected]


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (chris86vw)*

Supersyn is a new category of PAO basestock that they developed...not sure if this will be the name of a new oil, but Mobil 1 has now been recategorized as "semi-synthetic". This leads me to believe that Mobil has quietly reformulated using Group III or (gasp) maybe even Group II base.
Bastards.


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## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

So that's the difference, at an Autozone I on Thursday I saw 2 racks, 1 ea of 5w30- tri and another that said NEW 5w30. I was going WTF? they were the same price...


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (9VW23yrs)*

quote:[HR][/HR]So that's the difference, at an Autozone I on Thursday I saw 2 racks, 1 ea of 5w30- tri and another that said NEW 5w30. I was going WTF? they were the same price...
[HR][/HR]​Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. Until we figure this newfangled stuff out, I would use the "old" Mobil 1 (SJ rated).


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## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

I did not buyany, when I got the Stage 3, Staley put Amsoil 5w30 in there. I guess I'll be sticking with this.


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## THE Wuss (Sep 28, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Anyone have any expereinces with "Redline" motor oil?


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Anyone have any expereinces with "Redline" motor oil? (THE Wuss)*

Yes, I asked for some certification data and they said they don't have any. Oil is self-certified but the standards committees suggest that data be made available on request. They didn’t object to giving it, they said they didn’t have it. Not good.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Anyone have any expereinces with "Redline" motor oil? (john s)*

I figured (and hoped) that you'd weigh in here, john s. I'm digging around on this, but Mobil seems to be tightlipped about all this right now. Right now this smells foul, but I guess we'll find out at some point.
Please let us know if you get any more info.


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## missouriJ (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: Anyone have any expereinces with "Redline" motor oil? (dbrowne1)*

I've been using Castrol Syntec since new, 20k miles now. I've used Castrol products on other cars in the past, all with no problemo. My theory is...As long as you use oil from an established manufacturer, not "Billy Bob's slick lube," they are all the same. The key seems to be changing it on time. My .02. Any bad experiences with Castrol Syntec? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vger (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

The following was take directly from Mobil's site FAQ.
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What is Mobil 1 and why is it now called Tri-Synthetic? 
Mobil 1 is a fully synthetic motor oil for automotive engines. It is made from a mixture of polyalphaolefin (PAO), synthetic ester and an alkylated aromatic fluid. Each of these three base materials enhances Mobil 1's performance and, along with a proprietary additive system, offers the best engine protection possible. Mobil 1 is available in five viscosity grades: 
0W-30 
0W-40 
5W-30 
10W-30 
15W-50 
Mobil 1 exceeds API service ratings SJ/CF. Mobil 1 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 and 10W-30 also meet ILSAC GF-2 requirements. As an SJ/CF rated oil, Mobil 1 can be used wherever an API SH, SG, SF or SE oil is called for in the owner's manual. As a CF rated oil, Mobil 1 can also be used in diesel engines calling for a CD oil. 
In addition, later in 2002, Mobil 1 will exceed the newest certification standards being implemented on that date – ILSAC GF-3 and API Service SL. 

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I don't know if this really explains anything, but I sure hope they stick with the true synthetic as I am getting my new A4 in a couple of weeks!


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## dhk (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

When you tell folks to "be very afraid", aren't you overstating the case just a bit? The MB link reinforced my belief that the term "synthetic" is primarily a marketing term which can be defined by the seller however they choose. 
Dan 00nbglx


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dhk)*

quote:[HR][/HR]When you tell folks to "be very afraid", aren't you overstating the case just a bit? The MB link reinforced my belief that the term "synthetic" is primarily a marketing term which can be defined by the seller however they choose. 
[HR][/HR]​Right, that's exactly the problem. "Synthetic" means whatever they say it means, so you don't really know what you're getting. Mobil brought Castrol before he U.S. National Advertising Board and Castrol successfully argued that "Synthetic" is a marketing term and has no accepted industry definition.
So, maybe I am more anal about oil than most people, but I don't want to pay $5/qt for Group III basestock oil, and I don't want Mobil 1 to sell out.


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## Drivbiwire (Jan 18, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

If you want maximum protection use Delvac 1 5w40. Its a real Group IV/V and rated SJ for gasoline engines. In the TDI's it reduce the cam wear found in the 5w30 engines from .001" per 30,000 miles down to only .0002" in 115,000 miles.
It flows at -65F lower than just about any 5w30 including Amoil 5w30.
Check out 
http://www.avlube.com 
and also
http://www.mobil-oil.com/mobil_lubes/onhighway/products_services/delvac1/index.html 
Delvac is ideal for extreme use turbo charged engines and I have yet to see any trace of sludge or residues in any engine using the stuff.
API CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF, SJ, SH 
Mack EO-M Plus, EO-M, EO-L Plus 
Cummins CES 20076, CES 20071 
Detroit Diesel 7SE270 
Caterpillar deposit performance 
2.0% distillation at 700°F 
Application 
Mobil Delvac 1 is recommended for diesel- and gasoline-powered fleet vehicles, such as over-the-road, off-the-road, truck rental, pickup-and-delivery, utility, and school bus fleets. Mobil Delvac 1 is capable of providing fuel economy benefits of up to 3% and more in heavy duty diesel engines with as much as a 40% reduction in oil make-up in over-the-road service. Mobil Delvac 1 
Typical Characteristics 
Product Number 44111-3 
SAE Grade 5W-40 
Gravity, API 32.3 
Pour Point, °C (°F) -54 (-65) 
Flash Point, ASTM D 92, °C (°F) 230 (446) 
Viscosity
cSt at 40° C
cSt at 100° C
SUS at 100° F
SUS at 210° F 
95.0
15.0
481
79 
Cranking Viscosity,
cP at -25° C 
3,200 
Pumping Viscosity,
cP at -35° C 
20,500 
Borderline Pumping Temperature, °C -44 
HT/HS, cP at 150° C 4.1 
Viscosity Index 167 
Sulfated Ash, wt % 1.3 
TBN, ASTM D 2896 11 
Color, ASTM D 1500 5 

DB


[Modified by Drivbiwire, 7:09 PM 4-7-2002]


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Drivbiwire)*

Yeah, I know about Delvac-1. Problem is that it's hard to find, and even harder to find for a decent price. It may not be ideal for a 1.8T because its additives are formulated more to sequester diesel soot rather than for the issues in a gas engine. I'd need to do more research before using it.


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## SlvrBllt (Oct 15, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dhk)*

I run the same Mobil 1 that Porche puts in their cars from the factory. 0w-40 "European Car Formula" Is this grade going to be affected as well?


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SlvrBllt)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I run the same Mobil 1 that Porche puts in their cars from the factory. 0w-40 "European Car Formula" Is this grade going to be affected as well?[HR][/HR]​I don't know yet. I run that sometimes too, didn't notice any difference on the VAG-COM temp measurements so switched back to cheaper 5W-30 M1.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

It has been suggested that the Flash Point of the TriSynthetic Mobil-1 has lowered significantly...I have a "data point" to support that: I have been running Mobil-1 5W30 since 5000 miles, but on my Nov 2001 oil change I started using the "new" Tri-Blend 5W30. I was surprised that I had to top up the oil about a month ago (at 28,000 miles or so) -- I had never seen my 1.8T using oil before this time (well, not counting the break-in period). So, it may be that the flash point drop is *very significant* to us 1.8T drivers, what with a turbo and all.
Damn. I might have to switch to Amsoil or Redline. Oil is too important...


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## Bimmer (Dec 15, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Are they switching it AGAIN, or is this the official confirmation of what already happened last year, when lists started discussion of the Tri Synthetic labeling vs. the original Fully Synthetic whatever. I posted this elsewhere:
Should I get into the whole bruhaha a while back about how Mobil 1 changed their formula from Original to Tri-Synthetic which was like - it used to be Coke but now is a little more like new Coke because of US FTC law changes that still allow it to be called fully synthetic so a few other cheaper ingredients were substituted in place of all Type IV PAO's which are more expensive (see http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp /products /Tri-Synthetic /formula faqs).















Guess Delvac 1 or Amsoil from now on.
more info re Redline
http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp /products /Mobil 1 vs. the competition faqs
_ Red Line Oil talks about "four-ball wear," "load wear," "Falex wear" and "Timken psi load" for their synthetic oil. Are these valid tests? _
These tests are low-cost tests generally used to determine the performance properties of grease. They do not correlate with engine performance tests. For example, the use of an additive such as lead naphthenate would yield excellent results in these bench (or lab) tests, but would cause excessive oxidation of an oil in an engine and would cause a motor oil to fail the industry standard oxidation test known as the Sequence III test. 
None of the tests referenced are used by API in determining gasoline engine oil performance (SJ is the current, most severe oil classification), nor by engine manufacturers. The API approval requires the following tests: 
L-38 for bearing corrosion. 
Sequence IIIE for oxidation, deposits and wear. 
Sequence VE for sludge, wear and varnish. 
Sequence IID for rust. 
This slate of tests can cost over $75,000 to run – considerably more than the simple bench tests mentioned. 
_ Red Line Oil claims to have 100 percent polyolester base stocks. Are these different or better than the base stocks used in Mobil 1? _
We are very familiar with polyolesters. In fact, we manufacture them and use them in our aviation jet engine oils such as Mobil® Jet Oil II and Mobil® Jet Oil 254 and in our refrigeration compressor lubricants, where the polyolesters are utilized for their compatibility with new HFC refrigerants. Polyolesters are indeed excellent at high-temperature oxidation stability and low volatility. 
However, our work on automobile engines and jet engine designs has shown that polyalphaolefins offer the best all-around performance for gasoline engines: 
From being completely compatible with conventional oils and gasoline engine seals. 
To providing both low- and high-temperature performance. 
To providing a stable oil in the presence of water and moisture. 
To having anti-rust capabilities. 


[Modified by Bimmer, 6:27 PM 4-8-2002]


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## houstonspeedfreek (Sep 24, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Bimmer)*

Good thing I've been using the Amsoil for some time now. I tried Mobil 1 0w-40 once and didn't care for it much. I could hear my valvetrain ticking too much.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (houstonspeedfreek)*

I went to the local auto stores today. Here's what I found.
The Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30 now carry the SL rating, but the 0W-30 and 15W-50 do not (they are SJ). All were the same price.


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## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

great now the oil companies are fscking me too....


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

A Mobil rep is coming to meet the TT gang in Asheville, I sent 22 questions and will report back the findings. Just sent off a few questions to Mobil Commercial Vehicle Lubes, will post any response.
Request:
Can you supply numerical test data for the Delvac 1 5W-40 motor oil for sequences outline in ACEA E5, API CH-4, Global DHD-1 or PC-9 test requirements? Oil producers self-certify the specification. The various standards organizations recommend that any producer or marketer claiming that their engine oil meets the specification have adequate performance data to support such claim and make such performance data reasonably available to interested parties upon request. Do you have Mercedes Benz OM 441LA numerical test data or any other turbocharger performance data available? What is the level of metal compounds (additives) used in Delvac 1? Do you have test data on the fouling of emissions equipment components caused by Delvac 1, such as the longevity of oxygen sensors and catalytic converters?


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## 01silverGTI (Nov 14, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (john s)*

as long as we are talking about commercial lubes like delvac, how about rotella-t, or delo? i have even considered that "ashless" aviation oil that shell makes they aren't synthetic, but they are good oils....


[Modified by 01silverGTI, 3:54 AM 4-9-2002]


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (01silverGTI)*

Why not just run 5-40 Synth from Valvoline? Or am I missing something?


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (01silverGTI)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...rotella-t[HR][/HR]​The only weight I've seen that in is 15W-40. Use it in my 16V (14y.o.), but wouldn't in my 1.8T.


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## SurrealGTI (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Electron Man)*

I just compared two bottles of Mobil 1 5W/30 with identical front sides "Tri-Synthetic Formula". These two bottles came from separate 6-pack cases that I bought from BJ's wholesale warehouse about 4 months apart. Here are some of the major differences seen in the back of each bottle:
Older bottle:
-Meets ILSAC GF-2 and GM 4718M gasoline engine oil performance and fuel economy specifications.
-API SERVICE SJ/CF
-Exceeds API service SJ,SH/CF warranty requirements for gas and diesel engines. Meets European ACEA A1/B1-98, Japanese valve train wear and engine performance requirements of BMW, MB, VW, Porsche, Volvo.
-Pumps at -58 F degrees for fast oil supply.
Newer bottle:
-Meets ILSAC GF-3 and GM 4718M gasoline engine oil performance and fuel economy specifications.
-API SERVICE SL, SJ/CF
-Exceeds API service SL/CF warranty requirements for gas and diesel engines. Meets Japanese valve train wear requirements. Formulated for European cars.
-Pours at -49 F degrees
-Pumps at extremely low temperatures for fast oil supply...
If I'm not mistaking, I'm getting the assumption that if I can't find any more Mobil 1 5W/30 synthetic oils like the older bottle, then I should prob. switch to a different oil? Any suggestions? I was thinking Castrol Syntec 5w/30. I don't want to pay more than $5/quart. 



[Modified by SurrealGTI, 12:09 PM 4-9-2002]


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Any suggestions? I was thinking Castrol Syntec 5w/30. I don't want to pay more than $5/quart. [HR][/HR]​Valvoline 5-40 syn at Napa, $4.69/qt... 
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?Product=19#


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## Derouen (Feb 4, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Hey speedfreek, where can I find Amsoil in Houston?


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Valvoline SynPower (tyrolkid)*

HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE


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## orangeJD (Jan 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

so is Amsoil the likely alternative? and if switching now from Mobil 1 to Amsoil, would everyone recommend sticking with the same weight?


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## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (orangeJD)*

Well I just checked the box from my last change. It might explain why I was toasting up my 5-30 so fast. I mean it came out smelling like burnt almond. So I moved up to 10-40 and it stopped, the car is happier and my oil temp dropped.
But reading this, I may consider going back to AMS.


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## JR! (Mar 24, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

What's a good synthetic that's available in Canada?
Is Amsoil available here??
Delvac is next to impossible to find...


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (JR!)*

Mobil 1 is probably your best bet, or Amsoil if you can find it and want to pay for it. Motul synthetics are supposedly good (I know they sell them in that french-speaking province to the east







) and PetroCanada is OK but not as good a basestock as Mobil 1.


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## Ultra Sport (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

I run Mobil 1 in all 6 of my family's cars. I always trusted it to be one, if not the best oil out there. 
What should I look for on the bottles now to see if it is the new vs old base stock. Thanks very much, I have found your post and findings to be very informative.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (jbutcher)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I run Mobil 1 in all 6 of my family's cars. I always trusted it to be one, if not the best oil out there. 
What should I look for on the bottles now to see if it is the new vs old base stock. Thanks very much, I have found your post and findings to be very informative.[HR][/HR]​NONE of this is confirmed yet. It's totally circumstantial evidence, but it's pretty fishy. The new formula (at least in the U.S.) will carry the API SL rating. The old one will have the SJ rating. Only the 5W-30 and 10W-30 weights of the new formula are on the shelves right now (at least in my area), and for technical reasons, the 0W-XX oils may not change basestocks.


[Modified by dbrowne1, 9:13 PM 4-9-2002]


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## orangeJD (Jan 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

its been said here before that 0w30 is fine for our cars and the newer ones come from vw with it. would you oil educated guys recommend it....especially if its the only SJ M1 we can get?


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## JosephShaw (Dec 28, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (orangeJD)*

Well, this certainly beats all. I just switched to Mobil 1 from Castrol Syntec after the whole "synthetic as a marketing campaign" debacle. Now Mobil 1 isn't even a synthetic. I guess I'll be moving to Amsoil.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (JosephShaw)*

We'll have more info on April 15th when Mobil makes its big announcement about this. My guess is that M1 is going to be reclassified as semi-synthetic because they put Group III basestock in place of the PAO, and a new oil will be released that uses their Supersyn PAO. 
The new SL rated 5W-30 and 10W-30 is already on the shelves. Use the SJ stuff if you can find it. There are really only two possibilities here, one is what I described above, the other is that they just used heavier basestocks (which raised the pour point) to get better high temp performance, possibly to meet the SL requirements. I suspect the former though if they are announcing a new oil next week.


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (dbrowne1)*









Temperature derivative of weight loss Mobil 1, 10W-30 (SL vs. SJ)








Weight loss Mobil 1, 10W-30 (SL vs. SJ)
New formulation is much more volatile than old formulation. New 10W-30 is about as volatile as old 5W-30. Don’t see how a higher pour point temperature and greater volatility can be construed as an improvement. Well I take that back, they don’t say new & improved. Maybe they should add something like this to the label:
NEW! ExxonMobil synergy formula, maximized profits through Exxon refining & Mobil 1 brand name.
Re: …the other is that they just used heavier basestocks 
If anything it looks like the molecular weight is lower. I need to do some FTIR scans, I picked up a trace of MEK in the new formula. This may be from an additive package that had solvent refined oil as carrier stock.


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## GetSmurfed (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (john s)*

Great, and I just picked up a case of M1 5w-30 yesterday.... keep us posted


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (john s)*

Once again, john s comes through. Thanks (for confirming my fear).
My hypotheses were based solely on the higher pourpoint and the apparent repositioning of the Mobil 1 brandname and expected launch next week of the Supersyn stuff. I gave Mobil the benefit of the doubt by mentioning the possibility of a heavier basestock rather than an inferior one. It appears that they did in fact sell out.


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## MarcinB (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (dbrowne1)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (rudyr)*

quote:[HR][/HR]If it's true I'd go with Amzoil.[HR][/HR]​I am , next oil change.....


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## dhk (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (john s)*

Great info. Not sure if I'm concerned about weight loss % at 250 *F, but would this characteristic indicate oxidation resistance at high temps? Any idea how the best conventional oils would plot out? 
Thanks for posting; this has been a most informative thread. Even interesting for an old skeptic like me still running conventional oil the dealer puts in. 
Dan 00nbglx


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (dhk)*

Any comments on Valvoline 5-40 synth? Amsoil is so damn expensive!


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## einsig (Jan 29, 2001)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (dhk)*

This is great info. Keep up the good work folks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
My last oil change I unknowingly put in the "new" 5w30. It's running fine, but I have been eating roughly 1/2 quart in ~3500 miles. Not cool.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (tyrolkid)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Any comments on Valvoline 5-40 synth? Amsoil is so damn expensive![HR][/HR]​Synpower uses Group III basestock, so it's no better than Syntec in that regard. However, it seems to put up better oil analysis numbers than M1 5W-30 (old formula) in the VR6, probably due to its additives (it contains Moly, M1 does not). 
Group III is still a lot better than Group I/II conventional oil. I just don't like paying that much for Group III when (until now) I could get Mobil 1 for the same price. Also, I shut my car down hot a lot and I worry about a Group III coking in my turbo.


----------



## azvw (Aug 24, 2001)

*Re: Your fears are founded. (dbrowne1)*

I wouldn't recommend Amsoil, it breaks down quickly and it has a high ash count.


----------



## 2lowA4 (Jan 6, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (tyrolkid)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Why not just run 5-40 Synth from Valvoline? Or am I missing something? [HR][/HR]​If you havent had any problems id stick with it. as long as you CHANGE the oil at the proper interval, thats all that matters, really.


----------



## Kenny Payne (May 7, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

No! Don't use Castrol. They're the one's who are responsible for getting the definition of "Fully Synthetic" changed, which then compelled Mobil to change THEIR formulation to remain competitive. Valvoline Synpower 5W40 is da $hit!
Here's an interesting tidbit: Of the last six issues of Porsche Panorama, the Porsche Club of America's monthly magazine, the November,2001 thru March,2002 issues ALL had ads for Mobil 1. You've probably seen the ads. They're the ones where Mobil show's Porsche's endorsement of the oil. Well, in the April (latest) issue, there's NO ad for Mobil 1 and there's FOUR ads for Valvoline SynPower! 
Regards,


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Not sure if I'm concerned about weight loss % at 250 °F (dhk)*

A few remarks, in reverse order of importance:
1) Temperature plots posted on this thread use the Centigrade temperature scale.
2) 250°C is the test temperature used for measuring evaporative loss of lubricating oil by the Noack method. The test is an indicator of oil consumption and property stability. It is part of ACEA , ILSAC and API oil standards.
3) Oil lubricates and cools the various parts of an engine. The environment can be quite hellish, such as in and around piston compression rings. Oil evaporating here can lead to deposit formation and subsequent ring sticking. Blowby, of course, increases dramatically once a ring sticks. This leads to a rapid contamination of the oil and further worsening of the situation that started it all.
4) A substance is a liquid because it's thermodynamically advantageous for the molecules to be closely packed in this situation. At equilibrium, intermolecular separation is determined mainly by repulsive forces while attractive forces dominate the net energy of interaction (internal energy). The stability of a liquid is determined by its cohesive energy. By raising the temperature we can quantify the energy holding a given mass fraction as liquid. Temperature is being used as a tool to make this measurement. Test temperature is not meant to relate directly to end-use temperature.


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Kenny Payne)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Valvoline Synpower 5W40 is da $hit!
Here's an interesting tidbit: Of the last six issues of Porsche Panorama, the Porsche Club of America's monthly magazine, the November,2001 thru March,2002 issues ALL had ads for Mobil 1. You've probably seen the ads. They're the ones where Mobil show's Porsche's endorsement of the oil. Well, in the April (latest) issue, there's NO ad for Mobil 1 and there's FOUR ads for Valvoline SynPower! 
[HR][/HR]​No, it's not "da $h1t". 75% of Synpower is Group III basestock, which is exactly what Castrol uses and which is exactly what Mobil is switching to. 
Your second statement confirms my theory that advertising really does work wonders.


----------



## GingerBreath (Mar 17, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

Just went to Pepboys to check out the back of the bottle,5W-30, and like SurrealGTI posted, I took note of this:
"-Exceeds API service SL/CF warranty requirements for gas and diesel engines. Meets Japanese valve train wear requirements. Formulated for European cars."
Then I went home and checked the back of a few bottles I picked up at Target about 2 months ago, and sure enough:
"-Exceeds API service SJ,SH/CF warranty requirements for gas and diesel engines. Meets European ACEA A1/B1-98, Japanese valve train wear and engine performance requirements of BMW, MB, VW, Porsche, Volvo."
So I think I'm going to check Target to see if they still have some of the older oil. But I'm going to switch to Amsoil. Its recommended for turbo and NA cars with drain intervals of 25k or 1-year.
From their literature:
NOACK Volatility Test (DIN 51581) March 2000
% Weight Loss(10W-30): Amsoil 6.76%
Mobil 1 14.98%


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Not sure if I'm concerned about weight loss % at 250 °F (john s)*

Thanks for the plotted data John. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
My main concern with the increased weight loss of the SL (vs SJ) rated oil is whether the SL detergent/stabilizer package has been improved (vs SJ) to keep the coke particles (worst case assumption







) away from my cylinder walls and bearings (crank, rod, turbine, etc).
It's bad enough to form coke...but does the better additive package (assuming SL additives=better than SJ?) make up for it?
Guess an engine wear test will show whether the difference (if any) is statistically significant.


----------



## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (1.8tGTI)*

What about Royal Purple synthetic? Kinda pricey, but it is available at the NAPA right down the street from me.
Thanks


----------



## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (The Kilted Yaksman)*

walmart, target and discount auto parts all have the new oil







.
theres some hatred towards amsoil on this board right now, so im kida torn between redline synthetic, amsoil and valovline synpower....


----------



## Mr_gimble (Jun 14, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (AxeAngel)*

Thankfully were a little behind up here in Nova Scotia and can still find the old stuff at both Canadian tire and Walmart.


----------



## Bora18t (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Here's something promising...for me at least. I've just recieved my shipment of Mobil 1 here at the shop, I ordered 2 drums and 10 cases of M1 5w30 ( my customers buy this stuff up like crazy)...anyhow the cases now carry the SL rating, while my drums still carry the SJ rating....maybe they've got a whole lot of the SJ stuff still....I'll just have to keep checking the drums


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Bora18t)*

And where is this shop located? My parents live right off river road








chris
[email protected]


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (chris86vw)*

***UPDATE***
Go look here: http://mobil1.com/supersyn/index.jsp 
It appears that there will be only one Mobil 1 line, using Supersyn as one of the basestocks. These pages blab about how it's the best ever, but looking over the numbers on the tech info page, it's NOT. For example, the VI for the 0W-40 formula has dropped to (a still very respectible) 185, down from 196. Supersyn IS a great basestock (light years better than anything else used in motor oils today) but it looks like most of the new formula is something else if the VI dropped like that. Of course, the VI for the 5W30 went UP. 
I am going to try to ferret out what's going on here from Mobil. I want to know exactly what is in this stuff, because it doesn't look like "the best Mobil 1 ever" to me.
You can compare numbers here http://members.net-port.com/~loub/car/oil_S.htm between the old (SJ) and new (SL). As you can see, the news is not all bad. It looks to me, though, as if the 0W-40 is using more VI improvers because its kinetic viscosity at 40C and 100C is higher than the old formula.


[Modified by dbrowne1, 7:46 PM 4-12-2002]


----------



## mbuxton (Jan 15, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Is there anything wrong with Valvoline SynPower 10W-30? If so, is it safe to just switch out the oil at any time or what? The bottle says "Exceeds API SERVICES, SL/SJ, CF/CD, ILSAC GF-3 And All Preceding API Gasoline Categories"....








mb


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (mbuxton)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Is there anything wrong with Valvoline SynPower 10W-30? If so, is it safe to just switch out the oil at any time or what? The bottle says "Exceeds API SERVICES, SL/SJ, CF/CD, ILSAC GF-3 And All Preceding API Gasoline Categories"....








mb[HR][/HR]​Other than the fact that it's the wrong viscosity for our cars, and uses Group III basestock (which is what we're afraid Mobil 1 switched to), no.


----------



## mbuxton (Jan 15, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

It seems as though everyone has a difference of opinions on the right viscosity. However, 5w30 apparently is the way to go, correct? Thanks for the response.


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (mbuxton)*

quote:[HR][/HR]It seems as though everyone has a difference of opinions on the right viscosity. [HR][/HR]​VW/Audi doesn't, and interstingly, Amsoil, Mobil, and Redline all agree too. 0W/5W-30 is what they recommend for our cars. The manual says 5W-40 or 5W-30, and lists some specs to look for. People that recommend heavier oils for street use are doing so without any rationale to back up their claims. A 2000+ 1.8T is nothing like a 1985 Golf 8v engine (which might benefit from a heavier oil).


[Modified by dbrowne1, 9:12 PM 4-12-2002]


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Attenuated total reflection infrared spectroscopy was used to detect differences in molecular structure of 4 oil samples: Mobil 1, 10W-30 SL; Mobil 1, 10W-30 SJ; Mobil Delvac 1, 5W-40; Pennzoil, 20W-20. 








Look at the top graph. Infrared absorption by methylene groups are similar for all oils however the regular mineral oil (Pennzoil) has the broadest peaks followed by the SL. The SJ and Delvac are almost identical in width. The methyl groups asymmetrical vibration (two C-H bonds extending while the 3rd is contracting) is shifted 2 wavenumbers lower on the mineral oil compared to the synthetics. Notice how the trough between the asymmetrical methyl groups vibrations and the leftmost symmetrical methylene groups is much less prevalent with the mineral oil. Also note how the SL oil is moved slightly away from the other synthetics towards the mineral’s response. The methyl groups symmetrical stretching is similar for SJ & Delvac and located at 2872. The SL is moved to 2871 and the trough on the right is much shallower. Here the mineral oil does not show a peak, the trough has become just a rounded shoulder. From this section of the spectrum you would think that maybe the SL formula has some mineral oil blended in. 








Now look at the lower graph. Here we can see a distinct vibration of the carbon in the olefinic linkage. It’s quite apparent in 2 of the samples. What is shocking is that it’s the Delvac 1 (ok, no surprise here) and the SL (!). Nothing exists in the Pennzoil, a paraffinic alkane would not absorb here, so this is as expected. The Mobil 1 SJ has just the slightest disturbance here. I expected to see significant absorbance here with PAO based oil, as was seen with Delvac 1 and our much maligned SL formula. Don’t know what to make of this.
There is much more of the spectrum to examine. I need to get my car ready for VIR and wont have time until I get back. If someone has some ideas about what I should look for, post a request or drop me a line. Thanks, hope to hear from someone.


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (john s)*

From what you're showing here, and the fact that Mobil is no longer calling it "Tri-Synthetic", I would guess that they are now using Supersyn PAO (greater than 50%, hence the peak you see at 1/3055 cm, whereas SJ formula is about 50% PAO I think) and then Group III for the rest, explaining the response in the other graph. 
It is cheaper to blend PAO with Group III than it is to use esters (which are generally more expensive than PAO) and Mobil can achieve acceptable numbers and still exceed all the specs because Supersyn has such great properties to begin with. My hypothesis seems to fit with the specs on the oil as well (as compared to the tri-synthetic SJ). 
If you can test for the presence of alkylated aromatics and the esters that were used in the SJ, this might shed some more light on my theory.


----------



## JosephShaw (Dec 28, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

At my trip to Wal-Mart tonight, I found that all the new 5w-30 is the new Tri-Synth Fully Synthetic" (what it said on the bottle front) SL stuff. All their 5quart jugs of the old SJ formulation where gone. The 5quart jug in my garage is the SJ stuff, so I was hoping to pick up at least two more of them if they had them. Sadly, this was not the case.


[Modified by JosephShaw, 2:05 AM 4-13-2002]


----------



## dhk (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

This is interesting stuff, but not sure I know what it all means....you guys obviously have a lot more knowledge of organic chemistry than I do. Based on my preconceptions of "synthetic" oils, I expected there would be significant differences in these graphs. Only conclusion I can draw here is that my good old Pennzoil isn't all that much different in the length and weight of its HC chain molecules from the custom built "synthetic" oils. Is that a valid conclusion? 
Dan 00nbglx


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (JosephShaw)*

quote:[HR][/HR]At my trip to Wal-Mart tonight, I found that all the new 5w-30 is the new Tri-Synth Fully Synthetic" (what it said on the bottle front) SL stuff. All their 5quart jugs of the old SJ formulation where gone. The 5quart jug in my garage is the SJ stuff, so I was hoping to pick up at least two more of them if they had them. Sadly, this was not the case.
[HR][/HR]​What you saw was the transitionary oil and labeling. It will be gone soon, replaced with Mobil 1 with Supersyn...which will not bill itself as tri-synthetic. I've got 2 of the 5W-30 5 qt jugs left...glad I stocked up when I did.


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: good old Pennzoil isn't all that much different (dhk)*









Not really. Viscosity is an indicator of molecular size. All things equal the bigger molecule of the 20W oil should require a greater temperature for the same volatility rate (lower volatility at the same temperature). However as you can see the smaller 10W synthetic has appreciably lower volatility (greater force holding the molecules together).


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*









quote:[HR][/HR]If you can test for the presence of alkylated aromatics and the esters that were used in the SJ, this might shed some more light on my theory.[HR][/HR]​The range from 900 down to 700 is a good region for identifying alky-substituted aromatic groups. On the graph, the peak at 722 is probably in-plane racking motion of CH2 groups. While the remaining peaks may have some olefinic absorption, most likely they are out-of-plane bending of CH bonds on aromatic rings. In-phase, out-of-plane, bending of a ring hydrogen atom is strongly coupled to adjacent hydrogen atoms. Therefore position of the out-of-phase bending vibrations are characteristic of the number and position of hydrogen atoms on the ring. Higher wave numbers would likely be trisubstituted or 1,4 disubstituted molecules. I need to identify the peaks but a few things are readily noticeable. Of the suspected alky substituted aromatic peaks, Mobil 1 10W-30 SJ has, in each instance, the lowest peak heights of all the synthetics. Mobil 1 10W-30 SL and Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 have nearly identical peaks in 4 instances (equal compound concentration). It’s not what I expected, I’ll need to look further into this to determine what has been done.


----------



## vger (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Just checked my local BJ's and Costco....all they have is the SL.


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (vger)*

Hmmm. At 5000 miles I filled up with Mobil 1 5-30 SJ. At 10000 miles it used maybe 1/4 quart since the last change. Filled with Mobil 1 5-30 SJ again at 10000 miles. Now at 14000 miles I'm down almost 1 quart. Could the packaging be a little slow in catching up with the new formula? Perhaps there is SL in some of the SJ bottles. BTW I drive about 2000 miles per month.


----------



## [email protected]@sted (Jun 28, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (VW-MAN)*

I did a little research at the local autoparts store today. The only SJ M1 they had left was 10W-30. I noticed the Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 was rated SJ/CF. So, does the SJ vs. SL rating have nothing to do with type of basestock used? I don't know that much about oil, but my assumption from reading this thread is that a SJ rated oil is better that an SL rated oil. So that made me purchase the synpower. Did I make the right choice?


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info ([email protected]@sted)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I did a little research at the local autoparts store today. The only SJ M1 they had left was 10W-30. I noticed the Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 was rated SJ/CF. So, does the SJ vs. SL rating have nothing to do with type of basestock used? I don't know that much about oil, but my assumption from reading this thread is that a SJ rated oil is better that an SL rated oil. So that made me purchase the synpower. Did I make the right choice? [HR][/HR]​If you read earlier in the thread, you'll see that Synpower uses Group III basestock which is what we're afraid M1 is switching to. Group III is cheaper and is made from processing conventional oil to make the molecules more uniform. I've seen some very good 5K mile analysis results on a VR6 using Synpower 5W-40 though...Synpower seems to have a very good additive package.
SJ is the API certification for oils used in 1996 and newer vehicles, SL is a new category for 2002 and on. One is not "better" than the other.


----------



## dhk (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: good old Pennzoil isn't all that much different (john s)*

John: Thanks for the great response. Based on your explanation then, a straight comparison of 5W conventional oil to 5W synthetic should reveal an even greater difference in volatility. But, are these extreme temps relevant to normal street operation on the 1.8T? Would you expect to see reduced coking of the turbo oil passages with Mobil1 on non-chipped cars in normal driving/non-race conditions?
Dan 00nbglx


----------



## Tarmac Eater (Apr 7, 2001)

quote:[HR][/HR]It has been suggested that the Flash Point of the TriSynthetic Mobil-1 has lowered significantly...I have a "data point" to support that: I have been running Mobil-1 5W30 since 5000 miles, but on my Nov 2001 oil change I started using the "new" Tri-Blend 5W30. I was surprised that I had to top up the oil about a month ago (at 28,000 miles or so) -- I had never seen my 1.8T using oil before this time (well, not counting the break-in period). So, it may be that the flash point drop is *very significant* to us 1.8T drivers, what with a turbo and all.
Damn. I might have to switch to Amsoil or Redline. Oil is too important...[HR][/HR]​For your information the flash point is the temp. at which the oil can
ignite with a spark.
Anyway I use Motul 6100 Synergy 5w40 (100% VW approved).








http://www.motul.com/redirectuk.asp?N=1.06.02.04


----------



## AD (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (john s)*

dbrowne1 and john s: 
i have virtually no idea what you're talking about, but it comforts me to know there're people like you on the forum!! Thanks so much for providing the info and links, it makes good reading despite my ignorance towards the subject.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
edit: spellink


[Modified by AD, 3:54 AM 4-14-2002]


----------



## Bora18t (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (chris86vw)*

Chris my family owns 2 Grease Monkeys...one on Rt 1 in Edison, and the other on Rt22 in North Plainfield...I'm always at the North Plainfield store, either that or I'm at class....


----------



## mrejda (Jan 1, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Bora18t)*

hey there - went to a ghetto pepboys in Pompano here and they have a nice stash of the older(trisynthetic SJ) oil, 5w-30 and 0w-30. The also had some of the new stuff.


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (john s)*

quote:[HR][/HR]From this section of the spectrum you would think that maybe the SL formula has some mineral oil blended in.[HR][/HR]​I agree. Maybe some of the upper management at Exxon-Mobil made the _business decision_ that it wasn't worth losing market share to a slightly cheaper competetor (Castrol). So they decide to use a slightly cheaper raw material and hope no one notices. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif to whomever decided that.
Looking at those spectra then being given hints about what types of chemical bonds cause vibration at each frequency reminds me of the "railroad track" problems from organic chemistry. (i.e. determine what the molecule is by process of elimination)







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 2001Wolfy (Jul 30, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Electron Man)*

OK, so after the refresher in org. chem. and some other research to ground myself in oil knowledge, I'm left with a single question:
What do I use now?
BTW, thanks to all for a truly interesting tech thread here in the Technical forum!


----------



## DCS (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (2001Wolfy)*

up


----------



## DTECH1.8T (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (DCS)*

I recently did my first oil change and used Castrol Syntec 10W-40. Down here we can pretty much use 10W-40 year round. The car does seem to run even smoother. Some of you guys "burning up" 5W-30 might want to try 10W-40. It's also a recommended weight in the Official Factory Service Manual. 
The only real difference between it and 5W-40 is that it flows at a slightly higher temperature and doesn't need as high a percentage of viscosity modifiers and additives. I also noticed that it doesn't require a "warm up" period before the engine seems to run smoother. It's smooth right off the bat thanks to the slightly heavier starting weight.
As for the brand wars, except for the SuperSyn level of lubricants, it seems like the brands will again all be similar in performance, so just buy your brand/weight preference and change your oil regularly. That seems to be more important regardless of the oil you use.


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

With the reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year ago to the "Tri-Syn", the major change was the elimination of the ester component. The ester was replaced by chemistry which enabled the same positive attributes of the ester (seal swell, natural detergency, etc.) without the negatives (moisture retention, etc.). The new "SuperSyn" is still PAO based, as always, NO Group II or III is used in "Supersyn" formulation The MSDS for the the Supersyn remains the same, with PAO base stock, no mineral oil component. 
All indications are (irrespective of pour points, etc.) that *operational performance* has been bettered, especially for our engines with the turbo, etc. The slight reduction in VI that is indicated is good, actually, in that it is the result of reduction of Viscosity Improvers (which have no lubrication qualities) to the use of a naturally high VI PAO component which HAS lubrication qualities. Thus a slight reduction in the VI but with the removal of a single action component, displaced by a high VI lubricant with superb lubricant qualities. 
As a lube engineer I am pleased with what Mobil has accomplished in Mobil 1 reformulation given the problems associated with the required formulation changes to meet new certification. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## DCS (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]With the reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year ago to the "Tri-Syn", the major change was the elimination of the ester component. The ester was replaced by chemistry which enabled the same positive attributes of the ester (seal swell, natural detergency, etc.) without the negatives (moisture retention, etc.). The new "SuperSyn" is still PAO based, as always, NO Group II or III is used in "Supersyn" formulation The MSDS for the the Supersyn remains the same, with PAO base stock, no mineral oil component. 
All indications are (irrespective of pour points, etc.) that *operational performance* has been bettered, especially for our engines with the turbo, etc. The slight reduction in VI that is indicated is good, actually, in that it is the result of reduction of Viscosity Improvers (which have no lubrication qualities) to the use of a naturally high VI PAO component which HAS lubrication qualities. Thus a slight reduction in the VI but with the removal of a single action component, displaced by a high VI lubricant with superb lubricant qualities. 
As a lube engineer I am pleased with what Mobil has accomplished in Mobil 1 reformulation given the problems associated with the required formulation changes to meet new certification. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS[HR][/HR]​what is this? verbatim out of a marketing flyer?


----------



## Digitalcandy (Dec 8, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (DCS)*

I have a case of the SJ left at my house. Looks like I will have to go to a "hole in the wall" mom and pop auto store too look for some more SJ Mobil1 and buy as many cases and my budget will allow.


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]With the reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year ago to the "Tri-Syn", the major change was the elimination of the ester component. The ester was replaced by chemistry which enabled the same positive attributes of the ester (seal swell, natural detergency, etc.) without the negatives (moisture retention, etc.). The new "SuperSyn" is still PAO based, as always, NO Group II or III is used in "Supersyn" formulation The MSDS for the the Supersyn remains the same, with PAO base stock, no mineral oil component. 
All indications are (irrespective of pour points, etc.) that *operational performance* has been bettered, especially for our engines with the turbo, etc. The slight reduction in VI that is indicated is good, actually, in that it is the result of reduction of Viscosity Improvers (which have no lubrication qualities) to the use of a naturally high VI PAO component which HAS lubrication qualities. Thus a slight reduction in the VI but with the removal of a single action component, displaced by a high VI lubricant with superb lubricant qualities. 
As a lube engineer I am pleased with what Mobil has accomplished in Mobil 1 reformulation given the problems associated with the required formulation changes to meet new certification. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS[HR][/HR]​Look at his WEB site. He's a Mobil Oil Distributor. Can we trust him? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (DCS)*

re: "verbatim out of a Mobil flyer". No, what I wrote is the view of a lubrication engineer who does not work for Exxon-Mobil but does have some excellent 'insider' sources. I run Mobil 1 in my personal vehicles and any changes made to formulation are of equal importance to me, personally, as with you. Since I have access to 'insider' information, I am sharing it with you.. I can assure you, the post is all original Morrison and not Mobil Oil... 
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

So. Are there two Mobil1s now? One with 100% PAO and one that's a blend?


----------



## DCS (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (VW-MAN)*

So is 'regular' M1 a group III oil and 'super syn' the real deal?
Why are they priced the same at Wal-Mart?


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (DCS)*

It is very simple. Mobil 1 Tri-syn is a PAO based (as opposed to Group III) synthetic oil. Mobil 1 made with Supersyn is a PAO based synthetic oil. The Mobil 1 with Supersyn is simply an evolutionary formulation. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (VW-MAN)*

VW-Man: regarding "Look at his web site, he is a Mobil Oil Dist: can we trust him?" I hope you noted that Mobil 1 is not available on the web site. I am a VW owner, run Mobil 1 & Delvac 1 in my VWs, can I be trusted?? I am also certified by the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers and as such I am committed to sharing lubricant knowledge. I derive no renumeration from someone buying Mobil 1 at their local Wal Mart. I have made every effort to get good "insider" information and share it here. My only interest is in providing knowledge that may not otherwise be made available. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]VW-Man: regarding "Look at his web site, he is a Mobil Oil Dist: can we trust him?" I hope you noted that Mobil 1 is not available on the web site. I am a VW owner, run Mobil 1 & Delvac 1 in my VWs, can I be trusted?? I am also certified by the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers and as such I am committed to sharing lubricant knowledge. I derive no renumeration from someone buying Mobil 1 at their local Wal Mart. I have made every effort to get good "insider" information and share it here. My only interest is in providing knowledge that may not otherwise be made available. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS
[HR][/HR]​Sounds good. What about my other two questions?


----------



## miketurbo (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

what does this really mean?? is the new stuff worst for our cars or whats the commotion?


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (VW-MAN)*

I am sorry but I missed your other two questions. What were they again?
George Morrison


----------



## undrpressr (Jan 22, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...I am committed to sharing lubricant knowledge.[HR][/HR]​Hmmm, my wife and I might want to have a word with you...








Seriously, do you perceive any degradation of performance with our high-temp turbo engine with the new formula vs. the old?


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

Questions were....
So. Are there two Mobil1s now? One with 100% PAO and one that's a blend?


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

George,
Thank you for posting here. If the new formula is using less VI improvers and either a heavier basestock or fewer pourpoint depressants, that would indeed be an "improvement" in my book despite the apparently worse specs. 
My concern about the use of Group III continues, however, because of the graphs posted by john s in this thread, and because Mobil effectively dodged the question when I asked via email whether Group III is included in the new formula. Some users of the new formula have reported higher oil consumption (after using the old tri-syn formula) as well, which suggests higher volatility and therefore circumstantially suggests the use of Group III.
Obviously none of this is conclusive, but it does suggest that the news about the new M1 may not be all good. Can you address these concerns? 
Again, thanks for your time here.


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (VW-MAN)*

Regarding "are there 2 mobil 1's?" No. One Mobil 1, full synthetic, same as always. No Group III, no blend.. 
Regarding performance issues. In a discussion with one of the development engineers working with Penske Racing, the oil surpasses the performance previous Mobil 1 formulations in every parameter. The new SuperSyn formulation was run last year in the racing program. 
I apolologize in that I DO sound like a Mobil advertisement but I am relating non-advertisement, for real, information acquired during a high level meeting at a great bar after numerous mutual Bud Lights!!. When I go back and read what I have written it does sound a bit like advertising copy, however... 
George


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

Regarding the increased oil consumption mentioned. It is not something that I am aware of with the SuperSyn other than the formulation indeed being very much different than the previous Tri-Syn. A short term re-seating/increased oil usage occurred in some engines when the change from the original PAO/Ester to the Tri-Syn formulation took place. It was for a short period while re-seating/sealing occurred. This does happen at times with different additive technology and detergency package changes even with the same base stock, same oil brand. With the last two Mobil Delvac 1300S reformulations the same occurred also, just for a brief time and only on a limited number of engines then oil consumption returned to normal levels.
George


----------



## zither (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

George
Would that info be from Penske's CART program with turbo or with the current NA IRL program?


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (zither)*

The development engineer I spoke with was assigned to the NASCAR program. Both NASCAR and CART programs used the new formulation Mobil 1, however, going back 2 seasons, actually. The new formulation when first used in side by side comparisons bumped the program ahead significantly as the performance difference was so significant it was a no brainer. The 'test' program ended with the second race of that season I believe and the switch to the new formulation was made.


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

Were not talking about the “new” tri-synthetic of a year ago but the “new new” tri-synthetic of last month that has an API SL rating on the bottle. As you can see from the TGA graph it is much more volatile than the "new" formula that was announced over a year ago. What's interesting is how there is nothing on the bottle to suggest a formulation change.


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (john s)*

john s-
Do you have any of the Supersyn to test? I've seen it on shelves around here so that might be worthwhile.
George-
Do you have Noack volatility data for the SJ Tri-synthetic and the new Supersyn, to look at side by side?


----------



## Y26 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (dbrowne1)*

Hello George,
What I am interested to know is that Delvac 1 for both diesel and gas engine... Can us 1.8Ter run them w/o any problem?
Cheers, Young


----------



## LCP (Jun 1, 2000)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (Y26)*

A few responses to things brought up earlier in the thread:
Amsoil is available in Houston from Michael Staley at Bob's Automotive (713-645-4404).
I find it surprising someone had lifter tick with Mobil One 0w40. I switched to 0w40 after experiencing lifter tick at the track with Royal Purple 5w30. That was nearly a year ago, and so far I really like the 0w40 -- I think it actually led to about a 10 degree drop in oil temperatures in my S4.
So what's the answer to the question about the "new, new" Mobil One vs the "new" Mobil One asked by John S of GeorgeSTECLS? I bought a few bottles of the SuperSyn 5w30 for my wife's Millenia S last weekend. Also, would it be bad to mix that with the few bottles of Tri-Syn we already had, given the comments about consuming oil around the ring seals after performing a change?


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Do you have any of the Supersyn to test? (dbrowne1)*









Question on Tri-Synthetic appears moot. Tri-Synthetic is history (for now). It’s a Mobil trademark and therefore means whatever Mobil marketing wants. Mobil 1 SuperSyn has volatility similar to other synthetics on the market (another me too) compared to the real Tri-Synthetics formula that had superior performance in this regard.


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: it was a no brainer (GeorgeSTLECLS)*









Temperature at 10% weight loss (°C):
Quaker State full synthetic 229.9
Mobil 1 SuperSyn 235.2
Valvoline SynPower 237.0
Castrol Syntec 238.6
Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 240.5
From Mobil’s web site:
Q: “Will the consumer lose anything from this reformulation?”
A: “No. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ is the best Mobil 1 ever.” 
Data they publish on the site shows higher pumping temperatures are required. There is no question that volatility that was in a league by itself is now just so-so. Disingenuous marketing hype on their part? How about this instead: “New, higher ash additive package. HP* formula recommended by drag racers and others who go through engines like Kleenex.”
*HP = higher profit


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: it was a no brainer (john s)*

Thank you (again) john s. Looks like you're confirmed my fears.


----------



## Bill A4 (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: it was a no brainer (john s)*

Are there any data like this comparing Amsoil oils?


----------



## Quattro4ever (Apr 20, 2002)

*Paging GeorgeSTLECLS...*

Can you have a Mobil1 engineer post an explanation of why Supersyn and SL Trisyn have worse looking specs compared to the SJ Trisyn?
Thanks.


----------



## Quattro4ever (Apr 20, 2002)

*Have you done any test on the 0w-40 formula?*

Thanks.


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: ...after that, I may be switching oils (dbrowne1)*









I might switch to Castrol Syntec 10W-40 this summer. Not crazy about the wide molecular weight distribution but even less crazy about Mobil’s switch to higher volatility oil.
Re: Can you have a Mobil1 engineer post an explanation of why Supersyn and SL Trisyn have worse looking specs compared to the SJ Trisyn?
Mobil is sending someone to TT East in 2 weeks, I’ll ask for an explanation. Hope I get something more definitive than “it’s the best Mobil 1 ever”.


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: ...after that, I may be switching oils (john s)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (Y26)*

Regarding the use of Delvac 1 for both gas and diesel VW. Yes, superb oil for both applications.. It is what I run in both my gas and diesel... 
George Morrison


----------



## Quattro4ever (Apr 20, 2002)

*Thanks john s. Please post your finding from the Mobil engineer...*

George, if you read this, could you ask your contact at Mobil for the specs on the original Trisynthetic, and post it here? Thanks.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

I spoke to a Mobil rep today, and he was quite clear about Mobil 1 SuperSyn:
Mobil 1 SuperSyn is PAO based and has a new anti-wear formula which Mobil feels is an improvement. 
The new Mobil 1 does NOT contain any Group III basestock.
============================================
quote:[HR][/HR]In a thread a few days ago, I explained why Mobil 1 tri-synthetic is, in fact, a "real" synthetic made with Group IV and V basestock. That has been true for years. 
However, it appears (probably as a result of Exxon's merger) that the Mobil 1 formula may be changing this year when they update it to the new SL rating, and it may already be on your shelf this week. Disappointingly, it looks like it has been reformulated and Mobil may have caved into the Group III profit pressure, although this isn't confirmed yet. The pourpoint is now 15 degrees higher within the 5W-30 viscosity, which suggests the change in basestock.
Rather than try to explain this myself, take a look here: http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopfor...f42eba2aa87cb9d5b332196127453f&threadid=35289 
I have 10 quarts of the SJ formula left...after that, I may be switching oils.









[Modified by dbrowne1, 7:43 PM 4-12-2002][HR][/HR]​


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (ThatWouldBeGreat)*

I sent a request to Mobil to supply data to substantiate the claim SuperSyn is the best Mobil 1 ever. Response was to call Mobil Engineers and press #3. Called and was told hang up call again and press #1. Did that and was told to hang up call Mobil Engineers and press #3. Told him I’d been there before. He said they have no data. I said if anyone had data who would it likely be? He said Mobil Engineers, so I called again. New guy said we have no data on SuperSyn at this time and if they ever did get any it would be unlikely that the information would be given out. So I said how do you propose to substantiate the claim to your customers. He said we have no data on SuperSyn (again). I said how about the old Tri-Synthetic with the API SJ rating. He said that information is created by an outside testing lab, the result of which is a certification at $100,000 a test. I said you don’t just test the lightest grade and use the read across chart? He said no, each grade is tested. So the crux is if you want to determine what the best oil for your application is you’ll have to test it yourself.


----------



## dhk (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (john s)*

All this tends to confirm my attitude that synthetic oil is 90% marketing hype. I'm so wary of all the claims that I'm sticking with conventional oil; guess I'll be the test case for turbo life here. On the other hand, the infomercials for Z Max with "Linkite" are pretty impressive....
On a more serious note, have a question on the TGA scan charts: is the % weight loss measured at a standard test time, eg, 100 hours? 
Dan


----------



## Bora18t (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: it was a no brainer (john s)*

Okay, so by this graph, would it be safe to use say, Quaker State Synthetic??? I carry lots of that stuff....also, any idea what basestock Pennzoil Full Synthetic 5w40 is using?? Have plenty of that too...


----------



## Jeckyll (Feb 24, 2002)

*Re: it was a no brainer (Bora18t)*

Ok, first I'm reading this thread with great interest since I'm about to switch to synthetic or perhaps I should say "synthetic" oil at my next change (16000km).
Second, while I comprehended some (maybe 50% of the really high level stuff) I have a couple of very simple question: 
What is the best oil I can use, given then I live in canada and don't have access to Amsoil? 
Even if the "new new" Mobil 1 is worse than the old "new" Mobile 1, I'm assuming it is still much better than whatever VW would put in my engine "for free" at the next change?!
Any info (not involving charts and molecular analisys, though John s, that's some great input, I wish I'd paid more attention in University







) is greatly appreciated


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Couple of answers*

quote:[HR][/HR]
On a more serious note, have a question on the TGA scan charts: is the % weight loss measured at a standard test time, eg, 100 hours? [HR][/HR]​No, the temperature scan starts at 25°C and increases to 1000°C at a rate that varies from 4°C/minute to 50°C/minute depending upon the volatility (higher volatility, slower rate). Surface area of the sample is large compared with the volume so that the volatility, expressed as percent per degree Celsius, is not dependent upon scan rate. Total test time is about an hour. A standard volatility test, Noack, is 250°C for 1 hour.
quote:[HR][/HR]
Okay, so by this graph, would it be safe to use say, Quaker State Synthetic??? [HR][/HR]​See the higher volatility at the lower temperatures? This means that Quaker State has a greater fraction of low molecular weight molecules. Cold cranking (starting) of the engine limits how heavy of a molecule you would want in your oil. Light (more volatile) molecules give less lubrication protection. So you want a narrow distribution that’s not too light or heavy. Making Quaker State less desirable.
quote:[HR][/HR]
Even if the "new new" Mobil 1 is worse than the old "new" Mobil 1, I'm assuming it is still much better than whatever VW would put in my engine "for free" at the next change?! [HR][/HR]​Yes, I think any major brand synthetic would be better than what you would get. Check with the shop and see what they give. Then decide.


----------



## Bill A4 (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Couple of answers (john s)*

From the looks of that graph the the breakdown in viscosity between the supersyn and the others doesn't seem to occur until 220 celsius. That's @420 degrees F. Does the oil temp ever reach these values? especially in NA engines. I interpret this graph seeing that the supersyn is not that bad.
In fact, in the last graph on this page the 0w-40 tri syn begins to lose more weight at lower temps then the supersyn at 10w-30. I"m no guru but this seems to favor supersyn to me...
comments?


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## DTECH1.8T (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: Couple of answers (Bill A4)*

Like I said ealier, the Castrol Syntec 10W-40 I'm using seems to be working out really well, smooth engine running right from the start-up as well as quick turbo spool up and engine revving under load. I know this is hardly scientific evidence, but it has been what I've been experiencing since my oil change and prior to posting of the data above.
I've bounced back and forth between Castrol and Mobil synthetics over the years in different cars, but looks like I'll be sticking with Castrol for the forseable future!...http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif



[Modified by DTECH1.8T, 7:11 PM 4-24-2002]


----------



## Bill A4 (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Couple of answers (DTECH1.8T)*

Not saying Castrol is bad, but I would hardly judge my oil use based on the fact the engine is running smooth. Slow pumping at startup and oil viscosity breakdown will wear your engine in ways you won't notice untill its to late.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (john s)*

I had a much better experience. I called and asked for HTHS, NOACK, and Kinematic Viscosity for all 5 grades of SuperSyn. [I didn't think to ask for TBN]
They called me back in about an hour and gave me the info, and they were very pleasant. And they confirmed for the second time the SuperSyn is Group IV/Group V. NO GROUP III!
I later called a Mobil exec, and he also confirmed no Group III, only Group IV/V....and the biggest change was a better antiwear additive. [ I presume related to reducing ZDDP levels]
Sadly, after talking to Mobil I think tha SuperSyn refers to their new antiwear additive, and may not mean use of the ExxonMobil SuperSyn PAO products.

=====================================




ExxonMobil Chemical is the world’s only manufacturer of both low and high viscosity PAOs (see summary table below) which enables you to work with a single source manufacturer to handle all of your worldwide distribution needs. With commercial viscosity grades ranging from 2 cSt to 100 cSt and exciting new products like SuperSyn™ which exceed 1000 cSt, we provide our customers the flexibility to formulate and meet the most extreme requirements.
Our PAOs provide superior lubrication for such applications as passenger car engine oils, drive line lubricants, industrial machinery and heavy-duty truck engines. Used in conjunction with our ester basestocks, PAOs are the major component of worldwide synthetic engine oils.
Synthetic lubricants formulated with PAOs provide the following benefits: 
Extended drain intervals 
Improved fuel economy 
Enhanced wear protection 
Wide ranges of temperature operation 
Since PAO-based products significantly outperform mineral oil and enhanced mineral oil (Group III) based products, we can provide you with a superior PAO that will solve your specific lubricant needs.
SuperSyn
SuperSyn, a proprietary patented technology of ExxonMobil, is a high-viscosity PAO typically used at low treat rates to balance the viscometrics, shear stability and low temperature properties of a lubricant. Its viscosity ranges between 150 to 3,000 cSt at 100° C, and it mixes completely with conventional PAOs, esters and mineral oils. Used in engine oils, automatic transmission fluids, gear oil greases, hydraulic oils and other specialized applications, SuperSyn has the following features: 
A viscosity index that is 35-40 units higher compared to conventional PAOs of the same viscosity grade. 
A pour point that is 10-20° C lower than conventional PAOs of the same viscosity grade. 
An increase of Synergistic VI when blended with mineral and synthetic base stocks. 
A high viscosity with good ambient fluidity. 
For more information on SuperSyn, please see our PAO product data sheet below. If you would like further information on our PAOs, please contact our Sales Offices.

PAOs (Polyalphaolefins) - Typical Properties

(PAOs) S.G. @ 15.6/15.6°C KV @ 100°C cSt KV @ 40°C cSt KV @ -40°C cSt VI Pour Pt. °C Flash Pt. °C Color ASTM 
ExxonMobil SHF-20 0.798 1.68 5.20 230 - -63 155 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-21 0.800 1.70 5.40 245 - -57 155 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-23 0.802 1.80 5.80 270 - -54 150 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-41 0.818 4.00 18.0 2,800 123 -57 218 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-61/63 0.826 5.80 30.0 7,800 133 -57 240 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-82/83 0.833 7.90 47.0 20,300 135 -54 250 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-101 0.835 10.0 68.0 38,000 136 -54 265 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-403 0.850 40.0 400 - 152 -39 288 <0.5 
ExxonMobil SHF-1003 0.855 107 1,340 - 179 -33 290 <0.5 

SuperSyn™ 2150 0.850 150 1,500 - 214 -42 220 <0.5 
SuperSyn™ 2300 0.852 300 3,200 - 235 -30 235 <0.5 
SuperSyn™ 21000 0.856 1,000 12,000 - 305 -18 235 <0.5 
SuperSyn™ 23000 0.857 3,000 35,700 - 388 -9 235 <0.5 


=====================================
SuperSyn PAO can have a higher pour point by 10-15 C. but the VI gains as well as the high visosity numbers numbers certainly make this PAO seem interesting, and it may be used as an "additive" rather than a base oil. [see Other Horizons in artice below]
I have also read that other PAO's, C12 PAO's, from other companies like Chevron Phillips Chemical Company trade a 1--15C increase in pour point for a 25% improvement in volatility. VI, and flash point also improve slightly, as does simulated cold crank viscosity.
=======================
PAO's
Window of Opportunity?
BY DAVID MCFALL
The auto industry is a few months away from issuing draft specifications for
the next generation of motor oils. But there have been enough talk and hints to
reasonably infer that these improved "GF-3" oils will require a substantial
tightening of volatility. "Volatility" as measured by the principal, European
test called NOACK, is the amount of oil lost (the light molecules) over time at
a given temperature and pressure. It has a direct impact on high temperature
engine oil effectiveness-especially on viscosity, emissions and oil
consumption. Today's oils have a NOACK volatility limit of 22 percent.
Volatility losses for the coming GF-3 oils-due on store shelves just after the
turn of the century could quite possibly be limited to 15 percent for all
grades.
To meet this stricter requirement, there's a good chance that motor oils made
with conventional, solvent refined base oils will have to be supplemented with
a performance "boost" of hydroprocessed base oil or a synthetic base oil-that
is, polyalphaolefin (PAO).
This was clearly on Don Johnson's mind when he pointed to the new, half-billion
dollar, hydrocracking refinery brought on line earlier this year by Pennzoil
and Conoco at Lake Charles, La. "We now produce a leading technology base
stock," noted the Pennzoil vice president for product support, "... [and]
strongly believe that this kind of base stock will be needed to formulate for
GF-3."
But Dave Goebel, Mobil Chemical Co's. worldwide synthetic fluids business
manager, upon reading this might well jump to his feet and proclaim, "Hold on.
Not so fast." Mobil Chemical has been producing a leading base stock for
decades and strongly believes it may be an important part of GF-3 formulation.
It's called polyalphaolefin, a fully synthetic base stock.
Johnson and Goebel may both be right. The question is how much of each for
GF-3? And, of course, at what price?
Making PAO
In a late August interview, Jim Willis, manager of Mobil Chemical's Beaumont,
Texas, facility, described the PAO manufacturing process in his plant. Willis's
family has deep roots in both the Beaumont area and with Mobil: in 1929 his
father began work at the Mobil refinery and Willis has now completed his own
37th Mobil year-with a few more to go.
"Conceptually, it's really pretty simple," described Willis. "Mineral
paraffinic lubricant base oils are obtained by separating out, that is
removing, certain non-beneficial parts of the feedstock. Synthetic base oils,
PAOs, on the other hand, start with a specified petrochemical feedstock which
is then completely changed chemically; a brand new product is designed and
created through a chemical reaction. Consistency counts as much in refining and
blending as in other fields. During the recent baseball World Series, the
umpire would throw out a new ball to the pitcher after a home run. That ball
was identical to the one hit out of the park. All the baseballs used in the
Major Leagues are the same-and in that they resemble PAO.
However, if you mix baseballs with softballs, golf balls, tennis balls or
billiard balls, you do not have the equivalent of PAO. But you do have the
equivalent of a mineral oil refined by solvent extraction or hydroprocessing.
Mobil Chemical's definitely a big player, maybe the biggest, in the PAO game.
And it started early with initial experiments which led to a commercial PAO
product in the early 1960s.
Today Mobil Chemical offers a full range of PAOs and other synthetic fluids
such as esters. These are the base oils used in formulations like Mobil 1,
probably the most recognized name of all synthetic motor oils.
Sandi Davis, Mobil Chemical's worldwide PAO product manager, ties esters into
the PAO function. "Typically, additives are not readily soluble in PAOs, and
esters help bridge that gap. By volume they're as high as 20 percent of the
final motor oil] formulation. Further, they also provide other essential
lubricating properties."
The Benchmark Oil?
But Davis quickly focuses on PAOs and the quality issue. "PAOs are the
benchmark engine and industrial base oil. They're the best. No question. As far
as the new hydroprocessed base stocks, we welcome them because they turn the
focus on the quality issue. These issues may even have a positive marketing
impact on PAOs but their impact is likely to be more on the solvent refined
base stocks."
At the same time she is rueful about what she sees as a new level of confusion
in the base oil market. "Very high viscosity index base stocks are not
synthetics. Period. They are not made by a synthetic process that starts with
specific raw material which is built to produce a specific end product. While
they're definitely better than solvent refined base oil, they don't have the
performance properties of a PAO. They never will and that claim shouldn't be
made."
Mobil Chemical's Dave Goebel, who was mentioned earlier in this article, says,
"Our experience with PAO technology allows us to tailor the chemistry for added
value, which in turn will open up many applications. For example, at Beaumont
we've just started to manufacture a new PAO product which we've trade marked
SuperSyn. While traditional PAO chemistries typically range from 2 to 100
centistokes [viscosity at 100 degrees C], we can now manufacture SuperSyn to as
high as 3,000 centistokes. It gives a lot of VI boost-300-plus VI-as well as
viscosity boost. Like everyone else, we're trying to differentiate ourselves
and we think SuperSyn is a step-out technology."
Other Horizons
In the engine oil arena, Goebel offers an intriguing idea: >>> "It is interesting
to observe how the new PAO chemistries are being incorporated into lubricants.
Some formulations may use PAO more as an additive than as a base fluid, which
is a different approach, because of the new characteristics of our PAOs such as
SuperSyn."<<<
Engine oil is, by far, the biggest market for synthetic lubricants. But Mobil
Chemical devotes fully half of its effort to applications other than engine
oils including, as Goebel notes, "gear oils, automatic transmission fluid,
hydraulic fluids and a broad range of industrial products. Some of the new
chemistries under development provide improved biodegradability. We understand
how to tweak the molecule to satisfy very narrow niche markets."
Goebel is optimistic about expanded market penetration for PAO. He says, "We're
bullish on PAO, which has grown historically at more than 10 percent a year,
and we believe this level will continue and even move up a few percentage
points in both engine oil and other applications. One example of this is the
market expansion we are seeing in the Pacific Rim."
PAOs cost more to manufacture than mineral base oils. Goebel readily
acknowledges this but points, again, to what he considers to be the element
that is moving inexorably to the fore-performance-driven by tightened OEM
specifications in the marketplace and by markets where customers are able to
use PAO chemistries which demonstrate a clear performance edge.
"PAOs are far and away a superior base fluid product. That's where the market
is heading, that's where we are now and where we, as a company, will continue
to be."



> I sent a request to Mobil to supply data to substantiate the claim SuperSyn is the best Mobil 1 ever. Response was to call Mobil Engineers and press #3. Called and was told hang up call again and press #1. Did that and was told to hang up call Mobil Engineers and press #3. Told him I’d been there before. He said they have no data. I said if anyone had data who would it likely be? He said Mobil Engineers, so I called again. New guy said we have no data on SuperSyn at this time and if they ever did get any it would be unlikely that the information would be given out. So I said how do you propose to substantiate the claim to your customers. He said we have no data on SuperSyn (again). I said how about the old Tri-Synthetic with the API SJ rating. He said that information is created by an outside testing lab, the result of which is a certification at $100,000 a test. I said you don’t just test the lightest grade and use the read across chart? He said no, each grade is tested. So the crux is if you want to determine what the best oil for your application is you’ll have to test it yourself.
> 
> 
> [Modified by ThatWouldBeGreat, 7:55 PM 4-24-2002]


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: [Got the] HTHS, NOACK, and Kinematic Viscosity for all 5 grades of SuperSyn (ThatWouldBeGreat)*

Great, please post, I’m sure everyone here would like to see it. Thanks for posting the basestock data, I didn’t think to ask for it. Flashpoint is a poor indicator of volatility, but since that’s all I have let me step out on a limb and do some conjecturing. SuperSyn has significantly higher VI and volatility and significantly lower pour point. Pour point of multiviscosity grades can be misleading so the SAE came up with 2 low temperature tests to determine the suitability of an engine oil in winter. The old Tri-Synthetic used the temperature at the ASTM D 4684 pumpability limit (60,000 MPa) to inform the buyer. The new SuperSyn formula oil dropped the pumpability temperature and replaced it with the less informative pour point, that coincidentally (?) was the same or close to the pumpability temperature of the old formula (pour points are lower). Was the trade off (volatility for VI) actually better? What was great about Mobil 1 was how clean it kept the engine parts. Does the new, more volatile formula, leave greater piston deposits? Mobil knows because it is one of the tests required to get the API SL rating. Mobil it’s time to come clean, release the test data!


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## Elberoth (Jan 16, 2002)

*Re: [Got the] HTHS, NOACK, and Kinematic Viscosity for all 5 grades of SuperSyn (john s)*

What a strange types of oil you are talking about. 5W-30, 10W-30, 5W-40 - we don't have this type of oils, at least not in synthetic form.
In Europe Mobill sells only the following synthetic oils:
Mobil 1 0W-40
Mobil 1 5W-50 Rally Formula
Mobil 1 0W-40 Turbo Diesel
http://www.mobil-oil.de/business/automotive/index.html 
Its the same if you go to Castrol, Shell or ELF. Oils from 5W to 10W are called semisynthetic, and 15W are mineral oils.
When I did my first/last oil change I bought an Audi recommended Castrol SLX 0W-30 which sells for 20 USD per LITER !!!!







I don't think you can get this oil in the states.
And there also is a new oil Castrol SLX 0W-20 (twenty) . Probably even more expensive











[Modified by Elberoth, 3:21 AM 4-26-2002]


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## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: [Got the] HTHS, NOACK, and Kinematic Viscosity for all 5 grades of SuperSyn (Elberoth)*

Czesc Adam!
Yeah, I don't think we get the Castrol SLX here in the US. We do have the Castrol Syntec though, which comes in 0w30, 5w30, 10w30, 10w40, 5w50.
Now, my owner's manual calls for 0w30, so that's what I'm using. I've been puring in Mobil 1 since I've hit 5k miles. I just stocked up on some more of the old Mobil 1 formula (SJ rated) that will last me for my next oil change. After that, hopefully we'll know one way or the other whether the new Mobil 1 formula is still the "good stuff".








All you other guys here - John S and others - keep posting your findings. Extremely interesting! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Cheers,


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## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Re: [Got the] HTHS, NOACK, and Kinematic Viscosity for all 5 grades of SuperSyn (Quattro Pete)*

FWIW, I just stocked up on 7 cases of Mobil 1 10-30 Tri-synthetic (SJ formula). It's only $22 a case at Costco. There's about 2 pallets of the cases over at the Burbank, CA Costco, if anyone's interested in the old formula. It's down the main aisle just before you get to the food section. I guess that's the reason Costco got Mobil 1--they changed the formula and sold the old stuff to Costco. But $22 for 6 quarts seems reasonable, so I stocked up.
Should I get more?


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## DTECH1.8T (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: Couple of answers (Bill A4)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Not saying Castrol is bad, but I would hardly judge my oil use based on the fact the engine is running smooth. Slow pumping at startup and oil viscosity breakdown will wear your engine in ways you won't notice untill its to late.[HR][/HR]​Of course not....That's exactly why I was implying that the "feeling" and running characteristics of the engine were a nice subjective experience before the favorable data posted above about the Castrol.
As for slow pumping, 10W-40 will not pump much if any slower in South Florida weather than a lighter weight, but it will protect slightly better at startup and under load. Not to mention that it uses less viscosity modifiers so with it's slightly heavier weight would theoretically also protect a little better from thermal breakdown.


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Comparison Data*

Table compares Tri-Synthetic viscosity with SuperSyn
SuperSyn is thicker when cold, the same at normal bulk temperature and thicker again when under high temperature and shear (with the exception of 15W-50). Looks like 15W-50 gained little (or lost) in the reformulation. The 5W-30 was bumped up to an ACEA category catching 3.5 HTHS viscosity so that may be why it is so much thicker in the cold pumpability test compared to the other grades. 10W-30 now has the HTHS viscosity needed to be called heavy-duty under API specs.
Percent change in viscosity, example 84 = SuperSyn 84% more viscose
Grade,	Pump,	40°C,	100°C,	HTHS
00W-30,	084,	05,	+4,	17
00W-40,	014,	13,	+7,	19
05W-30,	157,	01,	-2,	13
10W-30,	035,	04,	-2,	16
15W-50,	031,	04,	-3,	02
[How do you insert a HTML table?]


[Modified by john s, 2:34 PM 4-28-2002]


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## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: Comparison Data (john s)*

quote:[HR][/HR]SuperSyn is thicker when cold, the same at normal bulk temperature and thicker again when under high temperature and shear [HR][/HR]​
What are the implications of this? Is the SuperSyn worse for our engines at cold startup, but better when running hot, compared to old Mobil 1?


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## einsig (Jan 29, 2001)

*Re: Comparison Data (Quattro Pete)*

For those PA residents the 2 Wal Marts in York have the SJ Tri-Synthetic on hand and at decent prices. The new Wal Mart in the King of Prussia/Norristown/Oaks area also has it on hand.


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: better when running hot (Quattro Pete)*

The second and third columns are viscosity at 40°C and 100°C and low/medium shear. There is a relative reduction in viscosity with temperature. So the relative increase in the last column (150°C at high shear), except 15W-50, is probably related to the change with shear rate (i.e. not good cold, not good hot).


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## Tenderloin (Apr 30, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

E-mail response from Mobil 1 
(I hope this horse is finally beaten dead LOL)
From: [email protected]
The new Mobil 1 Supersyn Synthetic oil is still 100% synthetic motor oil, and it is the best Mobil 1 ever to be produced by Mobil.
That was sent in response to this e-mail I sent yesterday.
Hello 
On many automotive enthusiasts sites, there is major discussion of how your new formula Mobil One is a cheaper, lesser grade synthetic blend oil, compared to your previous Mobil One oil. It is being compared with Castrol Syntec, in that it is blended with conventional oil stock. 
This is going to hurt your business if it is true or if not true does not get clarified as the High Performance techies on many sites have their panties in a bunch about you going the cheap route. Do not underestimate the concern by many on this. 
Thanks for any response.


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Tenderloin)*

Wait.. where's their response?


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## einsig (Jan 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (psalm)*

quote:[HR][/HR]E-mail response from Mobil 1 
(I hope this horse is finally beaten dead LOL)
From: [email protected]
The new Mobil 1 Supersyn Synthetic oil is still 100% synthetic motor oil, and it is the best Mobil 1 ever to be produced by Mobil.[HR][/HR]​Right here.


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## Dr.T (Apr 29, 2002)

*Guys, what about Havoline Synthetic 5W-40???*

I use this stuff with great results in my BMW and was wondering if anyone has comments on it since we're talking about oils here. This is the recommended grade for VW right? Any comments?


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## tobyc (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (einsig)*

quote:[HR][/HR]E-mail response from Mobil 1 
(I hope this horse is finally beaten dead LOL)
From: [email protected]
The new Mobil 1 Supersyn Synthetic oil is still 100% synthetic motor oil, and it is the best Mobil 1 ever to be produced by Mobil.
Right here.[HR][/HR]​Remeber that "synthetic" is simply a marketing term and does not refer to any qualitative properties of the oil itself. This reasponse is simply marketing speak and means nothing.


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## harrydog (Nov 19, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Bimmer)*

Who said that Redline claims to use 100% polyolester basestock? They don't and they don't claim to. What they say is that they are one of the few companies that use significant amounts of polyolester basestock. They blend it with other basestocks, including PAO's. The fact is, the reason Mobil or even Amsoil don't use any of it is due to cost. It is 5 o 6 times as expensive as PAO's, but it offers greater high heat and high sheer stress protection.
Redline is a niche manufacturer. They cater to the discriminating enthusiast who wants the absolute best for his vehicle and is willing to pay for it. They formulate their products to be the absolute best, with out worrying about what they need to charge for it. There is a reason why Redline costs more - it is more costly to manufacture. 
Mobil, on the other hand, must manufacture their product to a price point in order to compete with all the other synthetics on the WalMart shelves. Any reason they tell you for not using at least some polyolesters in their formulation, other than the cost factor, is pure marketing hype.


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## Bimmer (Dec 15, 1999)

Another simultaneous thread w/ info. http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=163845&page=1


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## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (john s)*

So, I was at Wal-Mart yesterday, and looked at the new Mobil 1 bottles that say "SuperSyn" on them. But, on the back, they still have the SL and SJ ratings.
I thought that the new SuperSyn was only going to have the SL rating, no?









Even on Mobil 1's website it says:
*Applications* 
_Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ fully synthetic, detergent-dispersant oils are designed for passenger car and light truck gasoline or diesel engines requiring API Service SL, SJ or CF. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30 also exceed ILSAC GF-3 (Starburst Certification Mark) requirements. _

But then, below, in the Characteristics section, it says:
*API Service Classification: SL/CF.*
Confusing.
BTW, the bottle I had in my hand was 0w30.

Cheers,


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## Bill A4 (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: …reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year… (Quattro Pete)*

It probably means that it covers both standards now. I belive the SL rating is for cars 98 a newer. So they are saying they fit both the old and new requirements.


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## rbuell (Oct 30, 1999)

This topic is timed well. I run 5-40 Synpower and was told Valvoline discontinued that weight. I was going to go with Mobil 1 5-30. I 'll have to check the bottles well now! Thanks


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## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: (rbuell)*

quote:[HR][/HR]This topic is timed well. I run 5-40 Synpower and was told Valvoline discontinued that weight. I was going to go with Mobil 1 5-30. I 'll have to check the bottles well now! Thanks[HR][/HR]​great so my first choice of mobil is out
and my 2nd choics of synpower is also out?


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## Tenderloin (Apr 30, 2002)

*Detailed e-mail response from Castrol*

Thank you for contacting Castrol regarding Syntec Full Synthetic Motor Oil. We appreciate your patience.
Motor oil, in general, is composed of 85% base oil and approximately l5% additives. 
Castrol Non-synthetic oil is made from paraffin based oil, which is resistant to chemical reaction and has good viscosity/temperature characteristics. It will also experience less change in viscosity with change in temperature and has greater oxidation stability,additive compatibility, and low volatility and oil consumption. 
The composition of SYNTEC Blend, depending upon the formulation, is 10-30% synthetic. However, the key issue is not the quantity of synthetics, but it's abilityto protect. Unlike other part synthetics, SYNTEC Blend is formulated with Castrol conventional oiland SYNTEC components. SYNTEC Blend provides a level of protection unsurpassed by any other part 
synthetic motor oil, regardless of their level of synthetic content.
*In response to your specific inquiry, Castrol decided to take advantage of exciting new developments in technology that allows the production of advanced high-performance synthetic base stocks. We found that by using advanced base stocks, we could produce synthetic oil that exceeded high performance levels achieved with standard synthetic base stock.
Due to this change in our technology, we were challenged to prove that our Syntec brand is properly marketed as full synthetic oil. On this issue, Castrol successfully substantiated this claim by proving that Syntec is indeed fully synthetic. In fact, the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Better Business Bureau ruled completely and unequivocally in
favor of Castrol, a decision that was never appealed by our competition.
Castrol won the dispute because of the overwhelming evidence we presented,which included testimony from leading scientists, conclusions of the Society of Automotive Engineers, and the opinions of scientists at Exxon and Shell.
More importantly, Castrol has always believed that the true test of motor oil is the degree to which it protects your engine. Castrol Syntec passes the most rigoroustests in the world and offers the ultimate in engine protection. Therefore, you can continue torely on Castrol Syntec to seek out and neutralize corrosive particles in your engine preventing premature engine wear during all phases of engine operation, help prevent the formation of sludge,meet standards of protection that conventional oils simply cannot attain, provide vastly increased stability at extreme temperatures, bond to engine parts at a molecular level leaving a layer of protection, and finally to exceed all gasoline engine warranty requirements for US, European and Japanese cars and light trucks.* 
We hope that we have properly addressed all of your concerns. Your continued interest and patronage are valued.
Lee W. Baldwin


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re:*

Guys (and the occasional girl),
I was told of this thread by someone on that Honda-Acura tech board (link provided above) and spent the last two days reading it.
Evidently, we have someone in our midst who plays on both sides of the fence … Honda/Acura AND VeeDubb.








I am pleased to see so many people talking about the qualities of base oils. I see the packed shelves at places like Walmart with all the brands and I wonder what percentage of people pulling the $4 per quart oil off the shelves really understand what is in it and what (if any) advantages they provide.
For the record, I had someone tell me that they went to the Mobil 1 website and saw that one of the Mobil 1 formulas was recently listed as a blend. The consensus is that this was an error … and a really pretty stupid one. With all the outcry about “fake synthetics” out there (a cause championed by Mobil 1), you’d think they of all people would be EXTRA CAREFUL with information on their site that might give folks the idea they’d fallen to the hydrocracked crude Darkside like so many others.








I am also pleased to find a board that isn’t polluted by people who flip out when you imply that Mobil 1 isn’t the last word on synthetic lubricants. I have run into a number of Mobil 1 defenders of various technical ability (or inability)… and politeness, or lack thereof, on too many forums. Some are OK, but some are children who throw a tantrum as though you’ve personally insulted them.








I also see that someone has verified that Valvoline Synpower has converted from a PAO to a hydrocracked crude (Group III). I know someone who called them merely months ago (1-800 Team Val) and they claimed it was still PAO and that Group III hydrocracked crude was reserved for their Max-Life formula. If anyone knows for sure that their Max-Life formula is anything other than Group III, please post.
to be continued …


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Bror Jace)*

My oil brand history is that I had used Mobil 1 at the start of the 90s, switched to Castrol Syntec when it first came out and switched back to Mobil 1 in the mid to late nineties according to some long forgotten Mobil 1 hype I read at the time. My current car, a lowly ’95 Civic Coupe has had a diet of 80-90% Mobil 1 up until I hit the 90,000 mile mark. What really irks me was that around the 80,000 mile mark, my car developed the condition known as “piston slap” where the small (short) piston skirt experiences wear and the worn piston, when shrunken due to freezing temperatures, will actually rattle around in the cylinder until the car warms up. For the first few minutes, the car has a classic “rod-knock” sound until the temperature inside the engine starts to rise. This can be quite loud … as it was in my car …and the engine sounds like it’s about to let go at any moment. In reality, cars can last many tens of thousands of miles once this condition is evident. Still, it is annoying and my well-kept car sounded like some decrepit clunker.








This phenomenon typically happens to Civics (and other brands) between 60,000-80,000 miles. That’s fine … for the AVERAGE motorist but I really took care of my car. It got Mobil 1 5W30 and a new filter every 6,000 miles. I drive fast but don’t actually race the car. Shouldn’t this wear pattern have been greatly delayed? What about the Mobil 1 commercial that talks about their “million mile” car? They tore the engine down after running it a million (simulated) miles and found some parts in the motor had virtually ZERO wear. Shouldn’t my car have lasted at more than 100,000 miles before signs of wear became apparent? Actually, shouldn’t it have gone MUCH longer before I heard this noise?








Since then I have talked to other people on the ‘net and one in particular is convinced that the base oil is often not the critical part of the equation. All liquid oils (regardless of base stock) will get squeezed out of the place when the engine is under intense load and stress. This can be towing a heavy load, “lugging” the motor by driving around in too tall a gear as well as high-RPM operation. The anti-wear additive is the only thing left under these circumstances to prevent metal parts from grinding each other into oblivion. This brings me back to Mobil 1.
Mobil 1 used to brag about having reduced zinc phosphate (ZDDP) levels in their oil and I can’t help but think this had something to do with the wear my car experienced. Nearly all oil manufacturers use this stuff in varying amounts. A level of 1.5% used to be fairly common with high-performance oils using as much as 2.0% or more. Currently, the API calls for SL certified oils to have no more than 1.0%. But, If you look on the back of Mobil 1’s SJ Tri-Synthetic bottle (10W30 or thinner), you’ll see that they cite very low levels of zinc and/pr phosphorous… it’s one of the last bullet points if memory serves. Leave it to Mobil 1 to brag about reduced protection.







I checked their MSDS sheets about a year ago and most weights have only 0.75% of this critical ingredient. The industry in general is cutting back on this stuff because it might reduce the life of catalytic converters and the EPA wants manufacturers to warranty all their emissions equipment for 100,000 miles (cats’ included). BUT, Mobil 1 went a step further and, in my opinion, they went too far. They seriously diminished the oil’s ability to prevent wear and I have stumbled across evidence that I’m not the only one to complain about this. 
But, about a year ago I switched over to Red Line Oil. First their 10W30 and now their 5W30. The 10W30 was significantly thicker than the same weight of Mobil 1 and Valvoline Synpower I had just tried and as a result, I lost about 2mph. So, I decided to go back to 5W30 … which made even more sense as winter was about to set in. 
The funniest thing is that the “piston slap” noise all but disappeared when I was running Red Line oil (even the 5W30 on an engine with 110,000+ miles on it) and …
... this, of course, brings me to another point. I was under the impression that Red Line was a 100% polyol formula. To hear that they are a Polyol and PAO blend is not necessarily a terrible thing, but it IS news to me. Any more detail on this? I’ll have to see if I can find their MSDS sheets online.
Now, having said that, all you “blown dudes” (guys with turbos) have to be worried about your exhaust driven compressors and their oh-so-critical bearings. It is critical you have an oil that stays flowing despite intense heat … much more intense than the typical engine … or even a belt-driven supercharged one. So, in this case, the high temperature stability of the oil is especially vital.
--- *Bror Jace*


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: “piston slap” (Bror Jace)*

I'm surprised about the bore wear. I ran Mobil 1 5W-20 for 85,000 miles and found the bores still met the specs for new (not wear limit, but new bore specs). However the thrust bearing were long gone. The connecting rods were wearing into the side webbing of the block. I guess 20 weight was not sufficient to maintain a hydrodynamic film. The new GF-4 proposal has the phosphorus level cut in half of today's limit. Carmakers want to avoid replacing oxygen sensors, engine wear is only a concern if it's excessive enough to impact warranty claims. Just got back from TT-East. We had a presentation by a Mobil oil representative. He said SuperSyn is Exxon technology marketed with the Mobil 1 brand. He was not a technical guy and when it came time to answer my 23 questions that I submitted, he was out of time. I was told by one of the event coordinators that some questions will not be answered because of their proprietary nature and others will be answered on the TT-East web site.


[Modified by john s, 1:06 PM 5-6-2002]


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## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Bror Jace)*

So. With all this discussion on Vortex and Vtec sites, what oil should we run? There doesn't seem to be any concensus. I notice that my Mobil 1 5w30 is evaporating. This change I'm putting in Valvoline SynPower 5w40. We'll see how that does.


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## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Bror Jace)*

Bror, from a lube engineer's standpoint, it is difficult to just blame Mobil 1 for your piston slap. If you had also presented a hitory of oil analysis which showed that your induction system/air filters had been doing a good job on clean air into the entine, no fuel dilution present, etc. etc. THEN we could talk about Mobil 1. However, since one of the major causes of accelerated bore/piston wear is simply induction dirt and you have no background data, no oil analysis results, you have very little to base your Mobil 1 performance comments on. I own a Honda Accord with 230,000 miles on it, and another person I work with has 270,000 on his Civic. No piston slap. Mobil 1 10W-30 used in both cases since new. However, we both have oil analysis records which shows under 10 ppm dirt/silicon levels with each oil change. I am familiar with 'pston slap' Hondas and in the cases I have seen, dirt ingestion has been the cause of the accelerated wear. Honda induction systems are notorious for leaking vacuum lines, missing air filter gaskets, etc. which are a major cause for your piston slap condition.
As for Zinc levels in Mobil 1. Yes, they are reduced relative to previous Mobil 1 levels. However they are still higher than most premium oils and the zinc has been replaced by an EP additive with even better EP performance, albeit a more expensive cost than ZDP. 
For you to condemn Mobil 1 performance in your vehicle missing some very important data, is way out of line.. You engine could well have injested enough dirt in these years to destroy an engine yet you have no way of knowing for certain. Let's just blame Mobil 1!!! 
I do NOT work for Mobil, have no affiliation with Mobil, AM a Mobil user, am a lube engineer whose desire is to share real information and enable vehicles and components live maximum lives with optimum lubricants, whether it is Mobil, Red Line, whatever.. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS


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## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: (VW-MAN)*

I run Mobil Delvac 1 in my Golf and from a lube engineer's viewpoint, pretty hard to beat. However, I also disagree big time with the "Mobil 1 is gone" disucssion brought on by components who would LIKE to see Mobil1 go away and thus started this Group III romor !! (Do I hear Brand X synthetic oil distributors???) The current Mobil 1 is still a full synthetic in the true "Mobil' syntheteic sense of the word.. i.e. predominantly PAO, NO Group II or Group III used in the formulation... So, Mobil 1 is still the best widely, readily available (YES, Amsoil and Red Line are great oils too!) 5W10W-30's and Mobil Delvac 1 an unequalled 5W-40...
George Morrison, STLE CLS


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: I run Mobil Delvac 1 (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

The Mobil guy at TT-East said he does not recommend Delvac 1 in gasoline engines due to the high level of additives. I know the bottle says it's ok for SI engines but they don't say anything about emission equipment. That was one of the questions they didn't have time to answer. I meant to ask Bror if there was an air filter, air plumbing or thermostat failure or overly rich combustion mixture along the way. EP ingredients effect camshaft wear much more than bore. As long as the oil has good film strength at temperature it should be ok for bore wear. If the engine was run cold a lot of raw gasoline would dilute the film on the wall, giving high wear.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Re: (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

George-
My only concern (as john s has said above) with running Delvac-1 in my car is that the higher additive levels will reduce the life of my O2 sensors. At $400 a pop, that's not a small consideration. I'm not worried about my cat (it's an aftermarket hi-flow and would need something the size of a pea to clog it and it's not that expensive).


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## Weakness (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

Guess we better buy up some of the "old" 15w50 bottles before they are all gone! Let get a group buy together...








For those of you who want the info from Mobile go to http://www.mobil1.com/supersyn/index.jsp.


[Modified by Weakness, 1:41 PM 5-7-2002]


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Various*

*john s*, are you sure your problem with connecting rod wear was the weight of oil … or insufficient anti-wear agents? Two oils of the same weight with a different additive package in the same engine, etc … would make a neat test. But then again, so would a lot of other scenarios but who has the time or money?
I’m sorry to hear about levels of ZDDP being reduced further in API certified oils ... ** pause ** … actually, who am I kidding? I couldn’t give a rat’s @$$ about SL/GF-3’s successor. I don’t drive a new car that is still under warranty and I don’t use API “certified” oils. If I wasn’t using Red Line, I’d go with some other specialty producer like Synergen, Schaeffer, etc … I’ll replace a cat’ and some emissions equipment every 100,000 miles if I have to. It’s not really that expensive when you look at the cost of a new engine or complete new car.
*GeorgeSTLECLS*, I appreciate your feedback even if we are looking at my experience with Mobil 1 differently. As you guessed, I did not have oil samples tested throughout my car’s lifetime. I did, however, have a sample of Red Line from this car tested last year and the car wore a much neglected K&N cone-type filter during the entire time. I had really let this thing go too long (30,000 miles?) and it took 3 consecutive cleanings before I re-oiled it and put it back on my car. The silicon level in my oil was 14ppm. (I was told 17ppm was a “universal” average for my type of motor with 3,100 miles) and mine was over a 7,200+ mile drain interval with that aforementioned filthy filter. I’ve heard that these filters can actually filter BETTER when dirty (although CFM flow will be down) but last year I checked the inside of my intake hose downstream from the filter and found just a trace of red (oil) residue after 100,000 miles. So, I do not think dirt induction is the likely cause. I suppose a leak could have happened earlier in the car’s life or further down the pipeline… but I just don’t see this as contributing significantly to my car’s case of piston slap. It’s not impossible, but I judge it to be improbable.
Also, I have a handful of other (albeit anecdotal) stories which point to Mobil 1’s failure to offer top notch protection. Just one of them was a Chevy V8 pick-up that had HORRIBLE sample test results after only 5,000 miles (high lead and iron plus other signs of wear. Testing again after 3,000 showed only an ‘average’ amount of wear. Um, the guy didn’t buy $4+ per-quart oil to get merely ‘average’ protection, I’m sure. The truck had only 20,000 miles on it (broken-in, but still should have been tight) and was driven normally on the highway. Results _should have been_ superb.
When I string these (and others) together with the known fact that Mobil 1 has changed their anti-wear, I feel the _most likely_ cause is that the oil only moderately protected the engine when (I feel) it should have done much better.
*VW-Man*, around 95,000 miles, I switched from Mobil 1 to Valvoline Synpower 5W30 and 10W30 (I sometimes switch weights seasonally). This is the point when my car began to consume a small amount of oil. I can’t say why, (I did not testing then) but the change was noticeable. It was not until I had Red Line in my car for more than half a year did my oil consumption return to ZERO where it remains today. That’s going by the level on the dipstick. I know that all engines use oil and that the crankcase can have fuel in it which will make up (volume only) for oil consumed. BUT, the fuel content in my oil from last fall was less than 0.5%.








*HOWEVER*
*john s* had an interesting theory about engines which run rich … and mine seems to at times (perhaps because of an aftermarket intake and exhaust). Actually, I can’t say that for sure. My fuel economy is almost always above the EPA figures for my car (and engines running rich are usually gas hogs) despite my love of RPMs when negotiating on/off ramps. Also, that one test I had done on my oil showed only a trace amount of fuel contamination. Curiouser and curiouser … 
--- *Bror Jace*
PS - Hey, speaking of O2 sensors, mine is original and I’m coming up on 120,000 miles. I noticed some light (almost imperceptible) pinging in the last 6 months. Since the rest of the ignition system is fairly fresh is the O2 sensor the likely culprit? I took mine out (came out like a spark plug thanks to _PB Blaster_) but I have no way to test it. I just want some feedback before I spring for a new one.


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Various (Bror Jace)*

I put the 5w40 SynPower in today. I'll keep my good eye on it. If it starts to use oil like it did with Mobil 1, I'll probably pull it out and switch to Redline. I'll keep you posted.
Now if we could just convince you to switch from Honda to VW.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: Various (VW-MAN)*

I'm really interested in this, as I use M1 in my car. I think I am going to hunt down some old style M1 before its all off the shelves, and I really want to know if the oil is being downgraded and sold as the same stuff, or if this is just a negative reaction that happens when an "old standby" is changed....because I really like M1. thanks for all the info everyone...










[Modified by mhjett, 2:44 PM 5-8-2002]


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Various (mhjett)*

THE NEW MOBIL HYPE:
Mobil 1 Motor Oil Adds New, Supersyn(TM) Anti-Wear System to Meet Needs of Today's Demanding Drivers 
Driver Friendly Packaging Helps Clear-Up "Viscosity Confusion" 

IRVING, TX, May 7 -- Exxon Mobil Corporation recently announced the reformulation of Mobil 1, the world's leading synthetic motor oil to include the new SuperSyn anti-wear system. Designed to give exceptional protection for engines in new, high performance cars as well as car engines with many years and miles of service, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn excels under extreme high-stress, high-temperature conditions, providing additional wear protection. 
SuperSyn was developed by ExxonMobil researchers several years ago. It started on the race track, in response to requests from the drag-racing community where pressures and strains on an engine's moving parts are tremendous and engine failure is common. Using an experimental Mobil 1 SuperSyn formulation, the drag racers found that engine bearings and other lubricated parts were lasting longer. 
Realizing that SuperSyn could add an extra element of protection to road-going passenger cars, ExxonMobil developed a new formulation of Mobil 1 which combines SuperSyn with a proprietary additive system. This is the 5th generation of Mobil 1 in its history. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is a top performer when it comes to engine protection. It performs well in a variety of conditions -- from starting in cold temperatures, performing in extreme high temperatures and operating in high-load conditions. Mobil 1 is not just for extreme service, it also benefits engines in "normal" service. 

"Research shows that drivers are keeping their vehicles longer, and that the vehicles themselves are lasting longer," said Alan Kelly, North American Regional Lubricants and Specialties Director for ExxonMobil. "Therefore, today's drivers want to make sure their engine has the best possible protection it can ." 
New Mobil 1 packaging has been brought to market in response to consumer research which has shown that customers are confused when it comes to the use and benefits of various viscosity grades of motor oil. In response to this research, each grade of new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is linked to specific styles of driving and a specific benefit. After consulting the owner's manual, consumers picking up a bottle of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn can clearly read a description of the benefits provided by a specific viscosity. New Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is available in five viscosity grades. 

An example of the label language includes: Mobil 1 0W-30 Enhanced Fuel Economy Formula - Delivers the best fuel economy in the Mobil 1 line. For quicker cold starts and faster protection. Protects during high-temperature, high-stress situations. 

"Every grade of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn provides exceptional performance and each viscosity is geared toward a specific application," explained Kelly. "We suggest that drivers follow the viscosity grade recommended in their vehicle's owners manual." 

Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is truly a global formulation, exceeding the latest standards from the oil industry and vehicle manufacturers. "Simply put, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is the best motor oil ExxonMobil engineers have ever developed," said Kelly. 

Customers have relied on Mobil lubricants for more than 130 years. Marketed in 200 countries and territories, Mobil products stand for performance, innovation and expertise. Mobil 1 is factory filled in some of the world's finest luxury and performance automobiles including Mercedes-Benz AMG, Porsche, Aston Martin, Chevrolet Corvette and Dodge Viper. For more information, visit http://www.mobil1.com. 
-------
What the oil man at TT-East said: An example of the less confusing label language - Mobil 1 10W-30 for high mileage cars (such as factory fill, 0 miles, Dodge Vipers).


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Various (Bror Jace)*

Bror, the information that I am sharing regarding Mobil 1 and its performance is not anectdotal. In my job, I review literally hundreds of oil analysis results each week, look at several complete engine teardowns each month and am sharing the information from this rather large database. Yes, Amsoil and Red Line are excellent oils but I do not see any oil analysis results, tear down differentiations from similar engines, similarly maintained, similar environment, from Mobil 1 lubricated engines. The one advantage with Mobil is that all of the components are manufactured under one roof, with control and refinement of each aspect. All other synthetics are either purchased packages and blended or in some cases are complete packages produced by another specialty manufacturer.. Castrol Syntec is an example.... 
Moreover, in the many hundreds of Mobil 1 analysis that I review, I have not seen any degradation in Mobil 1 quality take place in the last year. In many fleet operations, we graph and monitor each wear metal from the oil analysis results and are able to predict very accurately the wear rates in those engines.. In the past year we have seen some significant decreases in wear rates which occurred after the Tri-Syn formulation.. We see no change in wear rates since the switch to Super Syn reformulation. This is for highway vehicles driven by people who drive because they have to, with much city, stop and go; fairly adverse conditions.. All indications, performance-wise, are that the SuperSyn formulation is at least equal to the Tri-Syn Mobil 1 formulation.
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## bldgengineer (Mar 17, 2002)

*Re: Various (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

I'm an amsoil retailer and an amsoil user. It is good to have a business license


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: Various (redlineracing)*

ok, quick question if anyone can answer it...
I was at NAPA today and the only old stuff, trisynthetic, they had was the 15W50, the stuff I use in my car. I was excited, the 10W30 and 5W30 and 0W30 were all the new super syn, so I thought I had found a nice supply of the old stuff, but on the back it said it was SL/CF, that does NOT mean it was the new formula right? I thought that the old M1 was SJ, but maybe I'm wrong, that it doesnt have anything to do with the basestock used.


----------



## aaonms (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Couple of answers (DTECH1.8T)*

What about Kendall? 
http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/productlineup/motoroils/default.html 
click on: GT-1® Full Synthetic Motor Oil


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Couple of answers (aaonms)*

Regarding Kendall: For all intents and purposes, Kendall is "no more".. The wonderful company from Bradford, Pa. was purchased several years ago by Sunoco. The Bradford Refinery was shut down and Sunoco began producing product with Kendall's name on the bottle.. Sunoco recently stopped producing engine oils and sold the brand names to Tosco, Inc. which is not a manufacturer, but a marketer. Tosco has products blended, then markets them under the brand names Tosco owns, such as Kendall, Union 76, etc... So, when one buy's Kendall product one is now buying a bottle with a trademarked brand name but who knows what is inside the bottle, who really blended the oil, etc..


----------



## Bolsen (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

Whoa, I'm the 10,000 viewer! weee!


----------



## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Bolsen)*

Motul all the way! 
Screw Mobil!


----------



## aaonms (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Couple of answers (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

GeorgeSTLECLS:
Thanks for the update on Kendall.
Hmmmmm...
Not real encouraging, is it?
Still, the spec sheets didn’t look all that bad...


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Bolsen)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Whoa, I'm the 10,000 viewer! weee!







[HR][/HR]​"Bob! Tell him what he's won!"


----------



## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (3wheelinWolf)*

call me lucky. i just did the oil change on one of my fraternity brother's gf's car.
we went to discount auto parts to pick her up some 5w30 castrol crap. right next to it on the aisle is Mobil 1 try-Synthetic blend. THE OLD STUFF!
bought 5 cases.... total damage $99.97
so that brings my stock pile to 6cases and 4 qts.
=40qts = 8-9 oil changes.








if anyone needs a case let me know. discount auto parts on kennedy blvd, one block up from seven seas, the strip club


----------



## WindnWar (Jan 25, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (AxeAngel)*

"the strip club" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








This has been a very cool thread so far. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Mencius01 (Aug 27, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (WindnWar)*

hi all,
i plan on doing my 15K oil change this weekend and i just saw this thread. I had bought 7 qts of Mobil 1 5w30 tri-synthetic last night and 13 qts of the new Mobil 1 5w30 supersyn version this morning (at a cheaper location). Being new to all this and this being my first ever oil change I am all confused by the details and numbers. 
What should I be looking for when purchasing motor oil and of the two types I had purchased which set should I return?
This is for a 2001 VR6.
Thanks!


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: ...but on the back it said it was SL/CF... (mhjett)*









Don’t worry about the SL formula for 15W-50 grade, it’s even less volatile than the SJ formula. Don’t know about the SuperSyn formula for this weight. I could have picked some up in Virginia last month but I thought I could get it around here. Not here yet.
GeorgeSTLECLS: "see no change in wear rates since the switch to Super Syn reformulation."
How much data do you have on SuperSyn and what grades have you got test data on. Still can’t get 15W-50 in SuperSyn here in NJ and other weights only in the last two weeks. I can attest to seeing no change in wear test data also, but only because I’ve seen no data.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: ...but on the back it said it was SL/CF... (john s)*

ok cool, i will attempt to clarify my last post.
I was at NAPA, they had all viscosities of M1, and all were the new super syn EXCEPT for the 15W50, which is what I use. So I noticed it was the old packaging, all good, but the rating was SL, not SJ like its always been. Went home, looked at my old botlles in the garage, sure enough, they were SJ. I was wondering if that means the stuff I found at NAPA is not really the old formula, but its sounding like the answer is YES it is, but they just uprated the API service rating and its still the old Tri syn that I saw. 
Which means I am going there tomorrow and buying a sh!tload.


----------



## treyrox (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: ...but on the back it said it was SL/CF... (mhjett)*

i have been following this discussion on and off and have a question some of you might be able to answer. i live in northern california and never see below 32degree weather, and do like to run my car pretty hard. i put 0w-40 tri-syn in for my 5000mi change and have been thinking about going 15w-50 for my 10,000mi change and onward. is that a good idea? should i stock up on the old formula or get the new stuff?
any negative effects of running 15w-50 in my car in norther n california?thanks


----------



## GTIGuy01 (Apr 19, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

How would one go about getting an oil
analysis. Also after reading all the post 
Whats the consensus, whats everone going to
use once the old stock Mobil one is gone for good??????


----------



## VW-Kayaker (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (GTIGuy01)*

quote:[HR][/HR]How would one go about getting an oil
analysis.[HR][/HR]​This place http://WWW.AVLUBE.COM sells an oil analysis kit. Look under automotive. I have not dealt with them before.


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (VW-Kayaker)*

One aspect of ordering oil analysis kits from http://www.avlube.com is that I get a back copy and we can then discuss it in detail. The results are a numbers that without explanation/understanding much of the value is lost.
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: How would one go about getting an oil analysis. (GTIGuy01)*

Many truck stops, such as Petro's, will do them or give you a kit.


----------



## harrydog (Nov 19, 2000)

*Re: Re: (Bror Jace)*

Bror Jace - I don't think you'll find specific basestock info in any of the Redline data sheets.
Several years ago, I was able to speak with Roy Howell, the head Chemist at Redline, and he was very willing to answer all my questions in detail. He said that the primary basestock used is polyolester but that they also blend in PAO's to get the desired result. Apparently polyolesters alone would not be ideal for automobile engines. But what it does bring to the table is better film strength, lower volatility, less high temp. degradation. Also, ployolesters have an affinity for hot metal; where as some other basestocks will tend to run off hot metal quickly, polyolesters actually tend to adhere to hot metal.
A question for you Bror - how often do you change your oil when using Redline?


----------



## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: How would one go about getting an oil analysis. (john s)*

this is bs. i mean the manual says 5w-40 for '02s. crap 5w-30 can be better almost in that is is thiner correct? and then it comes down to sythetic 5w30s... few is any are all sythetic... so basicly just use a good oil right?


----------



## JoeFriday (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: Re: (harrydog)*

this might be a stupid question, but dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a chemist! anyway...
I've always been told you should change the oil in your car after X number of months, even if the car hasn't been used because eventually the oil will breakdown regardless of the mileage it has been subjected to.. thus the standard '3000 miles or 3 months' disclaimer
so, is stocking up on several years worth of Mobil 1 a bad idea if it's just going to sit on the shelf and breakdown without being used?


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: so, is stocking up on several years worth of Mobil 1 a bad idea (JoeFriday)*

No, the oil reacts with contaminates, something you don't have in unused oil. Check the Mobil 1 FAQ, someone asked this question, they said 10 years shelf life in unopened bottles.


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## Jet18TSP (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: so, is stocking up on several years worth of Mobil 1 a bad idea (john s)*

2002 jetta 1.8t stock... i live in norfolk va... i read first page and might take all night trying to read the rest. what oul should i use?


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: ...might take all night trying to read the rest (Jet18TSP)*

Excellent nighttime reading, if this thread doesn’t put you to sleep nothing will. If you want Mobil 1 40-weight oil but don’t need the arctic pumpability of 0W-40 you can mix anywhere from 10% to 60% Mobil 1 10W-30 with 15W-50 to meet grade. Example 2.8 quarts of 10W-30 with 2 quarts of 15w-50 will put you at the low end of a SAE 40 grade oil.


----------



## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: ...might take all night trying to read the rest (john s)*

Guys(and the occasional girl),
The following is a response to Thursday's activity which I wrote that afternoon. I'm a little behind and will try to get up to speed this weekend.
*john s*, a couple weeks ago in that Honda thread previously referenced, I was asked about the different “recommendations” on each bottle of Mobil 1 SuperSyn. I theorized at the time that this was just marketing babble (i.e. trying to make oil weight selection idiot-proof) and did not denote an ACTUAL difference in the formulas (addition of seal swellers for high-mileage engines, etc …) merely weight/viscosity. After reading that bit of PR fluff you found, it appears I was right on the money.








I just saw on another site and bulletin board dedicated to oil (www.bobistheoilguy.com <http://www.bobistheoilguy.com&gt







that all formulations of Valvoline Max-Life have some (400ppm?) molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) in them. Wow, I’m even more impressed with this stuff than I was before. On the downside, the formula’s TBN doesn’t hold up well. It starts out at 8 but deteriorates rapidly. The moly may accelerate the oxidation of this lubricant. I don’t consider this otherwise superb oil (excellent value for the money) for any _extended_ drains because of this factor alone.
*George*, I’m very tempted to take you at your word about all the testing you’ve been able to review. Still, you say these are fleet cars … with automatic transmissions … driven by sales or delivery personnel? That’s fine for the average driver which may find Mobil 1 to be a competent choice. But, I’d like to see tests where the engines are really placed under load and/or run at high temperatures and high RPMs. This is what my car experiences for brief periods at a time, almost daily. 
However, I know the value of all components being made “in house” and its effect on the quality of the finished product. I have gotten different batches of Red Line oil that have slightly different coloring. That’s not an AWFUL thing by itself, but it does speak to less-than-ideal quality control. As I understand it, Amsoil and some other brands experience similar inconsistencies. 
Still, I can’t help think that my piston slap condition could have been prevented by a better oil, And, the fact that using Red Line now has all but eliminated the noise despite dozens of thousands of miles of additional hard use goes a long way with me. In case I didn’t say it before, I don’t think that it was anything ‘magical’ about Red Line which did the trick, it was the large amount of moly (MoS2) in their formula which has masked the noise (and hopefully) significantly delayed its getting any worse. But, oils which use moly are fairly rare and I’ve found a couple good sources of Red Line.
So, imagine someone who had a slight phobia of flying who survives a harrowing crash landing. He/she’d be even more fearful of flying from that moment forward, safety statistics be damned. Given my experience with my current car and the emissions pressures placed on oil manufacturers, I find myself mistrustful of all the mass-market producers (specifically Mobil 1 which is what I used during the most critical period) and as the EPA continues to pressure the API to pressure the oil companies to cut down on useful, protective compounds, this reticence of mine is not likely to abate anytime soon. 

I probably should step back and say that _I think_ Red Line is currently the best stuff going for most people who drive their vehicles hard … BUT, if I were to see good, hard evidence that someone offered a BETTER oil for my type of driving, I’d switch faster than a coke addict’s heart beats. I’m not married to Red Line, nor do I have a wardrobe of items with their logo on it, etc ... So, if I some gypsy told me that in a year or more from now, I would be using Synergen, Lucas, Motul or some other brand, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised. But right now, I’m sticking with my current choice.
Thanks, *HarryDog*. I currently go 7,000-7,500 miles on my Red Line. I'll get a second sample tested next month.
--- *Bror Jace*


----------



## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: ...might take all night trying to read the rest (Bror Jace)*

k03 pumping out 1.3bar is serious strain. i cool down my car every time i run it, and do all the nice safety modifications.
but after 3months ~ 1000miles, my oil looks hideous, can't imagine what a lesser oil would look like


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*more yak (Bror Jace)*

“[high mileage] formula (addition of seal swellers for high-mileage engines, etc …) “
I asked the Mobil guy at TT-East specifically about this, his response “no it’s just a marketing approach, 10W-30 high mileage formula is factory fill on Dodge Vipers, don’t ask me why they’re marketing it like this, I don’t like it.”
“moly may accelerate the oxidation of this lubricant”
Yes, it does. Also, don’t just look at TBN, at least include TAN. Detergents neutralize acids but by their vary nature they have steric hindrances that prevent them from being effective to all acidic species. So you can get good TBN retention on formulations that have corrosion problems. 
“EPA continues to pressure the API to pressure the oil companies to cut down on useful, protective compounds”
We’re being a bit cynical here, engine protection is the responsibility of the oil producer. EPA is just pushing them to find new compounds that don’t compromise emissions. Responsive, fuel injected, computer controlled engine management was accelerated by the EPA so they’re not all bad. Companies are reluctant to spend additional money on R&D for something that they don’t see as a problem, it reduces short-term profits.
Red Line and piston slap: Mobil 1 15W-50 is on the low end of viscosity for a SAE 50 grade oil, maybe that’s why you hear more noise than with Red Line.
I’m overdue for an oil change (Mobil 1 0W-40 in it now). I’ll get an analysis at Petro’s.


----------



## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: more yak (john s)*

*John s*, thanks for confirming that Mobil 1 marketing nonsense. They are not the first to treat customers like morons (and hey, the morons are out there, we have to admit that) but I've seen an over-the-counter drug company do the same thing. The same exact medicine formula marketed 3-4 different ways: cold, cold & sinus, sinus, allergy-sinus, etc ...








I hear what you are saying about the EPA. But, I still thinks its a gamble ... and a gamble they are taking with OUR cars. Sure when pushing the car companies to improve mileage, they came up with fuel injection, better ignitions systems, low-rolling resistance tires, lightweight materials and stronger structures but those are already being used and people like Senator Kerry from Mass are trying to mandate that 2-3 ton SUVs get 30+mpg and it ain't gonna happen in the next decade. We can only get so much energy out of a gallon of gasoline and with each improvement in performance we get much more mechanical complexity. What I'm trying to say is that you can only expect so much from technology and if these new formulas can't get the job done it will first show up in OUR engines, the ones driven harder than the average bloke.
As for my piston slap, the oil that stopped it was 5W30 Red Line (street formula - switched last year) It was loud and noticeable with Mobil 1 (first) and switching to Valvoline Synpower the following winter failed to make a difference. So, I don't think weight has anything to do with it. I always ran 5W30 (synthetic) in the winter except one time when I went with Mobil 1 0W30 earlier in the car's life.
My buddy and I went to scope out a late-model used Miata this morning (nice lil' car!) and his Civic (1989 with 160,000+ miles) was making a racket. I asked him if it was Max-Life in the car and he said no, Mobil 1. He's gonna change the oil and switch to Max-Life soon and it will be interesting if he tells me of a difference in noise level at start up.
--- *Bror Jace*


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Quickie Analysis*

Got a quick oil analysis done at Petro’s truck stop, they use On-Site Analysis equipment, looks like that’s not for long http://biz.yahoo.com/p/g/gtnoq.ob.html 
Nice how the president takes $354K/year and puts 350 people out of work.
Anyway, numbers are used then new
Mobil 1 0W-40 service 4536 miles / 64 days , new
Aluminum 4,2
Chromium 0,0
Copper 4,2
Iron 4,3
Lead 0,0
Tin 0,3
Silicon 11,2
Potassium 7,5
Sodium 9,11
Water <0.1,<0.1
Oxidation 14.4,3.9
Viscosity 13.8,13.6
Glycol ND,ND
Fuel <2,<2
Nitration 9.5,2.3
Sheet says change oil if oxidation number above 25, no suggestion on nitration number. Flashing on air filter box wore holes in the air filter that might be the reason for the high silicon number (Audi would not change filter or fix air box even though it had holes in it and was at the end of the mileage service limit, had to do it myself). Looks like the bearings are ok.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (john s)*

Am I correct that this is a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for the 0w-40?


----------



## Jet18TSP (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (john s)*

just want every1 to agree on this 2002 jetta 1.8t. driving in hot VA summer weather. constant spanking of prelude so i am ggonna use m1 5w40. is that okay with every1


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

For people who recommended switching to Amsoil instead, I don't know if you can be sure that Amsoil is still the same quality either. Looking at some of their data, it looks like their flash points have decreased by 20 deg or so and are now similar to Mobil 1 (430-450 F). Looks like they are now using less Group V esters. Seems like Redline is the only synthetic left on the market that uses a high percentage of Group V esters, if you go by their extremely high flash points (460-500 F). Although, this data is from a while back... hope they haven't changed their fornulation since.


[Modified by catalytic, 2:46 AM 5-14-2002]


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## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Jet18TSP)*

quote:[HR][/HR]just want every1 to agree on this 2002 jetta 1.8t. driving in hot VA summer weather. constant spanking of prelude so i am ggonna use m1 5w40. is that okay with every1[HR][/HR]​Sure! Just tell us all where you're getting it, since it isn't available in the US.


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## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (catalytic)*

quote:[HR][/HR]For people who recommended switching to Amsoil instead, I don't know if you can be sure that Amsoil is still the same quality either. Looking at some of their data, it looks like their flash points have decreased by 20 deg or so and are now similar to Mobil 1 (430-450 F). Looks like they are now using less Group V esters. Seems like Redline is the only synthetic left on the market that uses a high percentage of Group V esters, if you go by their extremely high flash points (460-500 F). Although, this data is from a while back... hope they haven't changed their fornulation since.
[HR][/HR]​Flash Point Data:
Amsoil XL-7500 : 5W30 = 464F / 10W30 = 471 F (6 month drain interval)
Redline : 5W30 = 455 / 10W30 = 475
Very similar!!
However, Amsoil extended drain interval oils (25K/35K) are lower - maybe due to the extra additives? I have a request for info into Amsoil Techs and will post a response when I hear back!
5W30 / 25K mile oil = 446 F
0W30 / 35K mile oil = 439 F
As far as I know, they have NOT changed their formulations.


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Highlander1)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Amsoil XL-7500 : 5W30 = 464F / 10W30 = 471 F (6 month drain interval)
Redline : 5W30 = 455 / 10W30 = 475
Very similar!![HR][/HR]​That is the only Amsoil oil of a reasonable viscosity with flash point temps over 450 F. OTOH, every Redline oil exceeds 455 F. And like you said, look at the short drain intervals and the low base number. I am pretty sure that those high flash point temps for the XL-7500 will not last too long. Looks like they use a significant amount of VI additives. Other Amsoil oils show fairly high volatility numbers or low base numbers as well compared to Redline products of similar viscosity.
quote:[HR][/HR]
5W30 / 25K mile oil = 446 F
0W30 / 35K mile oil = 439 F
As far as I know, they have NOT changed their formulations.
[HR][/HR]​From what appears to be an older data source on Amsoil specs:
----- Viscosity --------- VI -- FP --- PP
AMSOIL 10w30 ..... 171 .. 464 .. -54 
AMSOIL 5w30 ...... 186 .. 478 .. -60
AMSOIL 0w30 ...... 188 .. 460 .. -76 
Compare these numbers with your current data. Flash points are down 20 F. Source: BestSyntheticOil.com (isn't that your parent website?)


[Modified by catalytic, 10:24 PM 5-14-2002]


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (catalytic)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Amsoil XL-7500 : 5W30 = 464F / 10W30 = 471 F (6 month drain interval)
Redline : 5W30 = 455 / 10W30 = 475
Very similar!![HR][/HR]​quote:[HR][/HR]
That is the only Amsoil oil of a reasonable viscosity with flash point temps over 450 F. OTOH, every Redline oil exceeds 455 F. And like you said, look at the short drain intervals and the low base number. I am pretty sure that those high flash point temps for the XL-7500 will not last too long. Looks like they use a significant amount of VI additives. Other Amsoil oils show fairly high volatility numbers or low base numbers as well compared to Redline products of similar viscosity.
[HR][/HR]​Almost every Amsoil oil is at/near/or above 450F. The reason I'm comparing those few is that they are what I would consider somewhat comparable, and certainly would be what most people use in their cars. I'll grant you that at the higher viscosity oils (like 20W50), the Redline stuff does have a higher flash point. As far as comparing to redline total base numbers - well, I don't see theirs posted on their site, so I guess I can't compare them. NOACK evaporation tests have also been performed on Amsoil oils, and they perform similarly to Redline. Also, long term tests with oil analysis completed, showing that Amsoil oils ARE capable of delivering what they promise. I guess I'm curious to understand how you were able to determine the VI additives they use and deduce that the flash point temps would significantly drop? From what I can tell, redline is no different! So I guess if Amsoil is going to fall apart, so is Redline... 
quote:[HR][/HR]
5W30 / 25K mile oil = 446 F
0W30 / 35K mile oil = 439 F
As far as I know, they have NOT changed their formulations.
[HR][/HR]​quote:[HR][/HR]
From what appears to be an older data source on Amsoil specs:
----- Viscosity --------- VI -- FP --- PP
AMSOIL 10w30 ..... 171 .. 464 .. -54 
AMSOIL 5w30 ...... 186 .. 478 .. -60
AMSOIL 0w30 ...... 188 .. 460 .. -76 
Compare these numbers with your current data. Flash points are down 20 F. Source: BestSyntheticOil.com (isn't that your parent website?)
[HR][/HR]​Maybe you can enlighten me as to where you found that data? If you found it on my site, or parent site, or Amsoil's site, I don't seem to be able to find it.
HERE is what I DID find (all data is Flash Point / Viscosity Index / Pour Temp, temps are degrees F)
Oil------------------Amsoil site-----My site--------Parent site----(Comparable Redline)
XL-7500 5W30----464/160/-60----464/160/-60-464/160/-60--(455/153/-49)
XL-7500 10W30--471/148/-54----471/148/-54--471/148/-54--(475/137/-45)
S-2K 0W30/35K--439/196/-60----439/196/-60--439/196/-60---None comparable
5W30/25K--------446/182/-60----442/197/-60--442/197/-60---None comparable
NOTE: The Amsoil website had the most updated data, so I would assume that is the correct data
10W30/25K 446/167/-54 Bad link Bad Link None comparable
I guess without seeing your data, I can't really give a good answer why/how you got different numbers.
Here's a couple links for you all:
the Maxima.org has been gathering oil analysis data - there's also links to other sites to learn more about oil 
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100060 
Here's Amsoil's analysis of redline oil:
http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/red_line.shtml 


[Modified by Highlander1, 5:39 AM 5-15-2002]


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Highlander1)*

Oops... sorry guys about the loss of formatting on the data comparison..
Ok, never mind , fixed it...


[Modified by Highlander1, 5:40 AM 5-15-2002]


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Highlander1)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Almost every Amsoil oil is at/near/or above 450F. The reason I'm comparing those few is that they are what I would consider somewhat comparable, and certainly would be what most people use in their cars.[HR][/HR]​Only Amsoil's XL-7500 5w30 and 10w30 are comparable to Redline oils in flashpoint. The other 8 or 9 Amsoil oils in varying viscosities and product lines all have lower flash points and higher volatility numbers. You are picking only the 2 Amsoil products with the highest flash point numbers and comparing it to Redline's entire lineup. How is that fair? What about the rest of the lineup?
quote:[HR][/HR]I'll grant you that at the higher viscosity oils (like 20W50), the Redline stuff does have a higher flash point.[HR][/HR]​All Redline oils have higher flash points except for the 5w30 XL-7500. 10w30, 10w40, 15w40, 20w50, you name it. Granted, we would only use up to 10w40 on the street, but this implies a pattern of using higher quality basestocks across the board.
quote:[HR][/HR]NOACK evaporation tests have also been performed on Amsoil oils, and they perform similarly to Redline. Also, long term tests with oil analysis completed, showing that Amsoil oils ARE capable of delivering what they promise.[HR][/HR]​Volatility numbers are similar but higher across the board for Amsoil. They has a great additive package, but it seems that they are relying on the additives more than Redline to achieve similar results.
quote:[HR][/HR]I guess I'm curious to understand how you were able to determine the VI additives they use and deduce that the flash point temps would significantly drop? From what I can tell, redline is no different! So I guess if Amsoil is going to fall apart, so is Redline... [HR][/HR]​One way of telling the amount of VI additives vs. basestock quality is by looking at the VI numbers and pour points. Look at the XL-7500's extremely low pour points and high VI numbers. To get such a wide VI spread, Amsoil probably uses a thinner base and adds more VI's to retain their viscosity at high temps. And the short service life of 7,500 miles is probably Amsoil admitting that once the additives break down, good luck. MW will drop, VI will drop, flash point will decrease, and volatility will increase. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
5W30 / 25K mile oil = 446 F
0W30 / 35K mile oil = 439 F
As far as I know, they have NOT changed their formulations.
[HR][/HR]​The following data is 1998. Compare that to the current data above:
----- Viscosity --------- VI -- FP --- PP
AMSOIL 10w30 ..... 171 .. 464 .. -54 
AMSOIL 5w30 ...... 186 .. 478 .. -60
AMSOIL 0w30 ...... 188 .. 460 .. -76 
Compare these numbers with your current data. Flash points are down 20 F. Source: BestSyntheticOil.com (isn't that your parent website?)
quote:[HR][/HR]Maybe you can enlighten me as to where you found that data? If you found it on my site, or parent site, or Amsoil's site, I don't seem to be able to find it.[HR][/HR]​ http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/chart.shtml 
quote:[HR][/HR]I guess without seeing your data, I can't really give a good answer why/how you got different numbers.[HR][/HR]​Well now you can







I'll be busy for the next few days, so take your time finding out stuff from Amsoil. 


[Modified by catalytic, 2:05 AM 5-15-2002]


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

*5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (improvius)*

quote:[HR][/HR]


> so i am ggonna use m1 5w40. is that okay with every1[HR][/HR]





> Sure! Just tell us all where you're getting it, since it isn't available in the US.


Mobil Delvac 1 is available in 5W-40 with the API SJ rating. So are the following:
Shell Rotella T Synthetic (go to Wal Mart)
Castrol Syntec (VW dealer only)
Chevron Delo Synthetic
Valvoline Synpower
Havoline ???


----------



## BananaCo (Sep 16, 2001)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (tjl)*

just great. i brought mobil 1 yesterday from walmart.


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (BananaCo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]just great. i brought mobil 1 yesterday from walmart.[HR][/HR]​Don't worry - Mobil 1 still and always WILL blow away dino oil... There are better synthetics, but you're still a whole lot better off than with dino oil!


----------



## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis*

I don’t like the way Amsoil sells their products. I dislike the ‘pyramiding’ sales structure and the way it works. Amway, Shaklee and others are structured like this and it always gives me the creeps.
Having said that, I was under the impression that Amsoil was a fairly traditional PAO & ester synthetic with loads of ZDDP which should be fine for most uses (even high performance applications). BUT, for any high-RPM or turbo engine, don’t even think about leaving it in for more than 10,000-12,000 miles. Those ultra-long intervals might be fine for some middle-aged salesman who drives a normally aspirated Buick V6 on the highway at gentle, legal speeds in a dry, temperate region … but that’s about it. Even then, that guy is going to get some elevated wear and I’d be very surprised if his engine lasts much past 150,000 miles … the amount of mileage sales reps can put on in only a handful of years, depending on their territory, etc …
Oh, and I saw that Red Line test data on the Amsoil jobber’s site before and CANNOT take it at face value.
I use Red Line oil AND have had it tested. After 7,200 miles and 5 months, my TBN was 4.5 and most other numbers were very good, some were excellent. I’ll bet that if those Red Line tests on that Amsoil site aren’t outright fraud, they were of a RACE (not street) oil formulation that was left in the cars for months ... a total misapplication since it lacks anti-oxidation additives.
Red Line may or may not be the best motor oil but for that site implies it can be practically dangerous to put it in your engine … which is more than misleading, it’s silly nonsense.
For anyone who’s interested, I use Blackstone Labs for my testing:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/index.html 
--- *Bror Jace*


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Bror Jace)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I don’t like the way Amsoil sells their products. I dislike the ‘pyramiding’ sales structure and the way it works. Amway, Shaklee and others are structured like this and it always gives me the creeps.[HR][/HR]​So are Mary Kay, Pampered Chef, Tupperware, etc. etc. But, I can't argue that point - to each his own, I guess. I don't like telemarketers, but they serve a purpose (or so I'm told)
quote:[HR][/HR]
I was under the impression that Amsoil was a fairly traditional PAO & ester synthetic with loads of ZDDP[HR][/HR]​Mostly PAO, some diesters.
quote:[HR][/HR]
which should be fine for most uses (even high performance applications). 
BUT, for any high-RPM or turbo engine, don’t even think about leaving it in for more than 10,000-12,000 miles. 
[HR][/HR]​Correct - you wouldn't want to leave ANY oil in a turbo engine for that long. In fact, Amsoil recommends changing it no more than 3x the mfg's recommended interval.


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Highlander1)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Correct - you wouldn't want to leave ANY oil in a turbo engine for that long. In fact, Amsoil recommends changing it no more than 3x the mfg's recommended interval.[HR][/HR]​VW's recommendation is 5K for the 1.8T (might even be 7500 for the Audis...not sure). This would imply that Amsoil is good for 15K...
I think Amsoil is a waste of money and its higher additive levels could be harmful to my cat and ($400 each) O2 sensors.


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (dbrowne1)*

I'm currently using AMS XL-7500 5W-30. Just for the sake of it I used AMS web based contact system and this is what I got back. 
http://www.amsoil.com/products/atm.html 
* Use our AMSOIL ATM 10W30 turbo formulation.*
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 10:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Technical Service Contact Form

Below are the results of your feedback form. It was submitted by: 
Name: 
Email: 
Date: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 at 22:49:53 
Sponsor ZO: 1072721
Confirmation message sent.
Field Name Value 
1 feedback.setup 
Name Jorge Tabush 
Email [email protected] 
Comments What oil should I use in a 2000 Volkswagen GTI with a 1.8turbo that has been modified with a larger turbo. Last Dyno 300hp at the wheels. 
I am a customer checkbox


----------



## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (9VW23yrs)*

*Highlander1*, fair enough. You are right about other products that use the same distribution system ... but I am not particularly fond of any of those products. Again, I don't like that intensive, personality-selling approach. 
As for Amsoil's formula, I thought it was mostly PAO and some dibasic ester as a seal conditioner. Add in the zinc phosphate for protection against metal-to-metal contact under load and this SHOULD be a very good, high-performance formula.
Amsoil doesn't recommend going as long as 25,000 miles? I thought they did.
I wouldn't use ANY oil for more than 10,000 miles ... but then again I run my car up to 5,000 RPMs every day. I will test a sample of my oil the first week in June and I'll see if the 5W30 Red Line holds up as well as the 10W30 did.
--- *Bror Jace*


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (9VW23yrs)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I'm currently using AMS XL-7500 5W-30. Just for the sake of it I used AMS web based contact system and this is what I got back. 
http://www.amsoil.com/products/atm.html 
* Use our AMSOIL ATM 10W30 turbo formulation.*
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 10:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Technical Service Contact Form

Below are the results of your feedback form. It was submitted by: 
Name: 
Email: 
Date: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 at 22:49:53 
Sponsor ZO: 1072721
Confirmation message sent.
Field Name Value 
1 feedback.setup 
Name Jorge Tabush 
Email [email protected] 
Comments What oil should I use in a 2000 Volkswagen GTI with a 1.8turbo that has been modified with a larger turbo. Last Dyno 300hp at the wheels. 
I am a customer checkbox 
[HR][/HR]​Ok, your car has been somewhat modified, and you live in Houston, so that makes sense to me. The ATM oil is the 10W30, 25,000 mile/1 year interval oil. Looking back at their specs, for the 10W30, it suggests NO more than 6 MONTHS in a turbo engine, while the 5W30 suggests 12 months (both say 3x the manufacturer's suggested interval or length of time). That said, I won't argue with the tech guys - that's what they're here for - to answer the "what if" questions!! The best way to determine the proper drain interval (with any synthetic) in a turbo engine is to do periodic oil analyses. Actually, that goes for ANY car using the extended drain oils.
BTW - YIKES, 300 HP at the wheel!!! Geez, that thing must fly!


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Bror Jace)*

quote:[HR][/HR]*Highlander1*, fair enough. You are right about other products that use the same distribution system ... but I am not particularly fond of any of those products. Again, I don't like that intensive, personality-selling approach. 
[HR][/HR]​Hey, I love my pampered chef stuff!! Yeah, a lot of the people selling like that are real pushy - especially about getting others to sign up, but the great thing about Amsoil is that there isn't that pressure - it's up to the individual to try to make a little business grow - rather than pressure to grow a chain of dealers under you (BTW, hopefully, I haven't been too pushy here or anywhere else). Basically, people have their preferences - and some people are interested in these products... 
quote:[HR][/HR]
As for Amsoil's formula, I thought it was mostly PAO and some dibasic ester as a seal conditioner. Add in the zinc phosphate for protection against metal-to-metal contact under load and this SHOULD be a very good, high-performance formula.
Amsoil doesn't recommend going as long as 25,000 miles? I thought they did.
I wouldn't use ANY oil for more than 10,000 miles ... but then again I run my car up to 5,000 RPMs every day. I will test a sample of my oil the first week in June and I'll see if the 5W30 Red Line holds up as well as the 10W30 did.
--- *Bror Jace*[HR][/HR]​Amsoil has two oils with extended drain intervals (up to 1 year) - 25K and 35K miles - for NA cars - BUT for both they suggest only 3x the mfg drain intervals for turbo engines. You're correct - the formulation (at least what info I could get) says the oils are mostly PAO basestock with some diesters (and other additives).


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Highlander1) MORE Amsoil INFORMATION*

Technical info about Amsoil:
- Amsoil changes their forumlations frequently. Their oils are designed to give a certain performance, and they will keep tweaking the formulas to match their aims for certain specs like VI, flash point, pour temp, viscosity, etc. As such sometimes, certain criteria change to make something else more desirable.
- Amsoil uses PAO basestock with small amounts of diester and other additives. For comparison, redline uses mostly esters. The two basestocks have completely different characteristics, and they modify till they get the oil that meets their criteia.
The important outcomes to the formulations to Amsoil:
1. Good volatility numbers - so that the oil maintains the correct viscosity - a must for long drain interval oils
2. Good wear performance - Four-Ball Wear Testing (ASTM D4172) results are consistently top performers.
3. Proven ability to provide consistent lubrication for long drain intervals
The ability to meet or beat a competitor's testing data is meaningless if they are able to meet their real criteria - the stuff works in the customer's engines the way they say it will for as long as they say it will...


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Highlander1) MORE Amsoil INFORMATION (Highlander1)*

Here is some info I got from Valvoline concerning their "synthetic". I was asking them to tell me what their base stock consists of.....

""Valvoline uses a mixture of various base oils designed to provide the
maximum performance for our SynPower line. All of the base fluids used in
SynPower are synthetic.
Some synthetic fluids are produced through a synthesis process that takes
very small molecules and assembles them into larger designer molecules with
premium lubricating properties. Others may be produced through a synthesis
process that takes very large molecules, breaks them apart and re-arranges
them to produce designer molecules with premium lubricating properties. In
either case the end products are base fluids with extremely good
lubricating properties. However, all of them also carry with them certain
inherent disadvantages.
By carefully selecting the right combination of synthetic fluids and their
right combination of premium chemical additives, Valvoline is able to take
advantage of all the benefits of the different components and their
combinations while overcoming any inherent disadvantages that a specific
component may have. The end result is full synthetic motor oil second to
none.""


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: I was asking them to tell me what their base stock consists of (VW-MAN)*

They just told you, “mind your own business”.


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (BananaCo)*

My god, 7 bloody pages! Noone here is running oil change intervals of any length that require the slightest bit of concern. You MKIV guys should be debating maf failures and window regulator lubes. No matter what oil you use, the additive package is going to wear out. I use M1, but anything will last you 3000 miles. There is plenty of tri-synth out there if you're really worried.


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (Highlander1) MORE Amsoil INFORMATION (Highlander1)*

Heh, heh... Highlander, you wouldn't believe it with my "Redline is better than Amsoil" comments, but I am running a full Amsoil oil package in my car now. I found a place locally that carries Amsoil for almost half the price of Redline per quart, so I went with the 2nd best synthetic oil







for my recent oil change and saved a bunch of $...
Amsoil 10w40 motor oil, 6 quarts
Amsoil 75w90 gear lube, 2 quarts
The synthetic gear lube reduces the whine and syncro sluggishness of the gearbox on a cold morning. 10w40 is fine for the winter, too, as the pour point is -54F. It isn't energy conserving due to its high viscosity at operating temps, but I don't really care.


[Modified by catalytic, 5:53 PM 5-26-2002]


----------



## einsig (Jan 29, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (catalytic)*

FYI, Target is selling off all it's stock of the old M1 for ~$3 a quart (they don't sell cases). I found 3 cases worth at the local Target (Plymouth Mtg in the Philly area) of 0-30 weight today. I asked if they had more in stock and they said no, but other Targets will have the old formula on sale for a similar price. I'd check your local Target if you want to stock up on the old stuff.


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (einsig)*

And for those of you who live in the GTA, the Etobicoke Canadian Tire (Queensway east of Kipling) had alot of old Mobil 1 left last week.


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (catalytic)*

As per the Mobil Supsersyn controversy: Mobil Supersyn lubed engines won the Indianapolis 500 and the F! of Monaco. Same stuff you can buy at Wal Mart.... Seems like adequate performance...
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

I don't think one can compare the ability for an engine oil to win in motorsport to the ability of said oil to protect a passenger car's engine over a much much longer time period. What difference does it make if a certain oil leaves 0.001 g more varnish in an engine over a race? Nothing. CART and F1 engines are rebuilt every few weeks. But over 10 years and 100,000 miles of using two different oils in a passenger car, those differences add up. Most of us try not to rebuild our engines even once. 
The hard part is that there are no such long term studies of various oils... but it wouldn't matter since the oil companies would have changed the formulation by the time the study was completed anyways.


----------



## Highlander1 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (catalytic)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Heh, heh... Highlander, you wouldn't believe it with my "Redline is better than Amsoil" comments, but I am running a full Amsoil oil package in my car now. I found a place locally that carries Amsoil for almost half the price of Redline per quart, so I went with the 2nd best synthetic oil







for my recent oil change and saved a bunch of $...
Amsoil 10w40 motor oil, 6 quarts
Amsoil 75w90 gear lube, 2 quarts
The synthetic gear lube reduces the whine and syncro sluggishness of the gearbox on a cold morning. 10w40 is fine for the winter, too, as the pour point is -54F. It isn't energy conserving due to its high viscosity at operating temps, but I don't really care.

[Modified by catalytic, 5:53 PM 5-26-2002][HR][/HR]​Welcome the dark side! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mayte (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (01silverGTI)*

Oils for reiprocating aircraft engines are a whole different animal. Aircraft fuels are leaded and the oils are formulated to deal with problems related to leaded fuels. If I remember right the synthetic oils are not very good at dealing with leaded fuels.


----------



## BigJetMech (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

Went out and bought M1 0/30 and made the switch last nite at 26k miles.
Of cousre i dont feel a difference but i would hope my engine parts do!!


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (mayte)*

It's not that PAO's don't deal with lead very well (reciprocating engines with lead in AVgas) but the dispersant package (the additive package that holds contaminants/lead in suspension) used in Moabil AV-1, for example, was not up to the job. A dispersant ad pack tailored for use in a PAO would most likely have eliminated or minimized the lead fallout problem in AV-1. Same holds true today with all the new Group III 'synthetic' oils. There is still much to be learned with respect to additive fallout, efficiencies, etc. over the long haul. The first PAO based synthetics ruined some engines 25 years ago and we may well see some of the same with this Group III; all is not yet known about the oil's reactivity, especially from the different Group II/III refineries. 
George Morrison


----------



## TruEvo (Sep 11, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

I'm switching back to Red Line. I/O Port Racing http://ioportracing.com/welcomeframes.htm has it for $6.58/qt {after 15 % discount} if you buy a case of 12 (they let you mix and match and 12 Red Line products to equal a case).


----------



## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: ...but on the back it said it was SL/CF... (john s)*

Anyone has any experience with the new Shell Rotella 5w40 synthetic? How would that compare to Mobil 1?
http://www.rotella.com/products.php3#synthetic 

Apparently, it is now available at Wal-Mart.
Cheers,


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]As per the Mobil Supsersyn controversy: Mobil Supersyn lubed engines won the Indianapolis 500 and the F! of Monaco. Same stuff you can buy at Wal Mart.... Seems like adequate performance...
George Morrison, STLE CLS[HR][/HR]​Yeah, that's great if I have a $300 Million annual budget for my car and rebuild the engine after every 500 mile race. I change my oil every 5 THOUSAND, and I certainly don't rebuild my engine. Not to mention the fact that they run flat out for the whole time...no stop and go, no cold starts every day.
I have no interest in knowing what wins the Indy 500...it has no bearing on what the best oil is for my daily driver.


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: ...but on the back it said it was SL/CF... (Quattro Pete)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Anyone has any experience with the new Shell Rotella 5w40 synthetic? How would that compare to Mobil 1?
http://www.rotella.com/products.php3#synthetic 

Apparently, it is now available at Wal-Mart.
Cheers,[HR][/HR]​It's been available for a while. It's fine, but it's a diesel oil (like Delvac-1) which means it has a lot more additives...some people think that's a good thing, others (like me) are wary that the higher add levels may accelarate O2 sensor and Cat deterioration.


----------



## MaximaGuy (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (VW-MAN)*

Sorry, I accidently started a new post when I simply meant to respond to the note you left on 5/16 about Valvoline oil in this post. When I sign off the computer, I'm going to eat some leftover humble pie.








VW-MAN, like you, I've liked Valvoline synthetic oil. Its products have a great reputation. But I've read on several threads that people don't think it is PAO-based anymore. I wasn't so sure, so I sent them an email in March and Valvoline stated that it was PAO. I've been skeptical however because they never, ever use that term in any of their promotions, data sheets, msds or other marketing hype like other manufacturers do. Then I noticed Walmart actually reduced the price of SynPower when Mobil 1 SuperSyn came out. Plus, I learned that their MaxLife oil is a synthetic blend (ie: MSDS), but ironically, they don't acknowledge it as a blend. Now I see the response you got a few weeks ago from Valvoline's tech support. That explanation sure didn't read like it's a PAO-based oil. It had group III written all over it. In as much as I'd still like a PAO-based synthetic oil, I'm going back to Mobil 1. It looks to me like the best "off the shelf" synthetic out there, and I simply don't trust Valvoline support people to give you an honest answer anymore. 
Chuck


----------



## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (MaximaGuy)*

Just did the freezer test, to prove a point.
Dropped in a container with old stock mobil 1 5w30
another container with amsoil 10w30
and castrol syntec with 25w50
bottom of my deep freeze where it gets really really cold.
after 13 1/2 hrs in the blizzard.
i took out all the oils and they all came out of their respective containers.
mobil and amsoil didnt look like they had much of a viscosity problem, amsoil was getting a lot thicker, molasses thickness.
case in point - your oil will operate outside of the two number listed. if you live in a cold climate, be wise and get a 0 or 5 base stock....


----------



## WindnWar (Jan 25, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (AxeAngel)*

AxeAngel, you should try Mobil 1 15-50, i did along with a quart of 5-30, the 15-50 was a bit thicker afterwords but not a whole lot. Stuff seems to flow pretty damn well for as heavy of an oil as it is. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aaonms (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (WindnWar)*

For fun, anyone try this w/ Mobil1 0W-40 as well as 5W-30 & 10W-50? Though at this time of the year in SC or FL, we should be using the microwave, not a freezer...
Anyone know anything about Motul 0W-40 http://www.motul1.com/8100ow40.html 
or Motul 5W-40? http://www.motul1.com/61005vw.html 
[Modified by aaonms, 5:03 AM 5-28-2002]


[Modified by aaonms, 6:47 AM 5-28-2002]


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]As per the Mobil Supsersyn controversy: Mobil Supersyn lubed engines won the Indianapolis 500 and the F! of Monaco. Same stuff you can buy at Wal Mart.... Seems like adequate performance...
George Morrison, STLE CLS[HR][/HR]​BWAHAHAHHA. Good one George! I _knew_ that was Schumacher next to me in Aisle 13 last week.....
A simple question: do you _REALLY_ believe that F1 and Indy teams are using off the shelf Mobil1? 
-Mike P


----------



## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (tyrolkid)*

went to the car spa in jacksonville over the weekend to change the oil in my girls car. i was snooping around as i watched over them and found that they carry a lot of the sj mobil 1. if curious may want to call and ask their supplier or even talk to them if you are in the area.


----------



## VW-Kayaker (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis*

I recently ordered some Mobil 1 0W40. I recieved Friday and it is "Tri-Synthetic" SL/SJ. Is this the new formulation or the old? 
Thx!


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (tyrolkid)*

quote:[HR][/HR]A simple question: do you _REALLY_ believe that F1 and Indy teams are using off the shelf Mobil1? 
-Mike P[HR][/HR]​They probably are running regular Mobil 1 products, but the point is that they could be using codliver oil and it wouldnt matter because the engines run for such a short period between rebuilds.


----------



## H2O WOLF (Mar 30, 2000)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (VW-Kayaker)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I recently ordered some Mobil 1 0W40. I recieved Friday and it is "Tri-Synthetic" SL/SJ. Is this the new formulation or the old? 
Thx![HR][/HR]​New


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (BananaCo)*

dee dee dee NewsFlash dee dee dee
Redline introduced 5w-40! 
-Mike P


----------



## GeorgeSTLECLS (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (tyrolkid)*

Regarding Penske's use of regular off the shelf Mobil 1. Yes, I do know that it is theoff the shelf Mobil 1 you and I purchase at Wal Mart. I know the Mobil developmental engineer who works with/travels with/analizes/monitiors the Mobil products used in the Indy and NASCAR cars. It IS really the same. However, 2 years ago it was not as it was the new Supersyn formulation, which is where it was developed/proven. The Ford group was having a problem with camshafts and top end wear in the longer races; this new formulation was tried as it was one of several prospect formulatoins but was not given much theoretical advantange, performance wise. Accordingly it provided unexpected wear and EP levels, thus the continued development to what is now on the shelf and currently being used Penske. Additionally, for Indianpolis, the oils that are advertised on cars must be submitted then for verification prior to the race and then a sample is taken from the crankcase post race to ensure that all is what is advertised. Not so with NASCAR, however, as one smells the heavy odor of Nitro on some of their used oil after qualification.. 
George Morrison, STLE CLS


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

I stand corrected.
-Mike P


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Quickie Analysis (GeorgeSTLECLS)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The Ford group was having a problem with camshafts and top end wear in the longer races...[HR][/HR]​A little OT, but it's better (engineering-wise) to improve the metallurgy; cheaper to change the additive pkg in the oil (or go with a different/better oil).
Guess that's the way Ford runs their racing program. Racing should focus on pushing the engineering and performance "envelope", not minimizing cost (IMHO).


----------



## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: vehicles were dangerously unstable ([email protected]h.com)*

Firestone had nothing to do with the pressure reduction, it was Ford's decision. Rollover of trucks became a hot topic. Heat was focusing on Ford's Bronco. The Bronco was being phased out and replaced with the Explorer. Ford's own tests showed that for certain types of maneuvers the new Explorer was worst than the Bronco. NHTSA was doing studies. They (NHTSA) decided to evaluate rollover propensity by measuring the height that a tire might lift off the road surface when the steering wheel is turned a fixed angular amount [a height greater that zero was deemed a failure] (if one disconnected the steering wheel from the steering mechanism the vehicle would pass with highest honors because it would show no propensity to lift a wheel, of course it would also show no propensity to go in the desired direction and would actually be as unsafe as you could get). Ford chose to reduce the front tire pressure, allowing great amounts of sidewall flex and tread distortion. This reduced the ability of the vehicle to turn which in turn reduced the propensity to lift the rear wheel. Mind you a driver turns the wheel whatever amount is required to avoid an obstacle, not a fixed angular amount. The "fix" done to the Ranger and Explorer was effective only for the artificial constraints of the test. Reducing tire pressure made the car less capable of avoiding objects and prone to overstraining the tires. When NHTSA tested the then new Explorer, it derimmed a tire in two different test scenarios. What did the NHTSA do? Did it send out letters warning Explorer owners? Did it change the test to be relevant to avoidance? Nope, in future testing they had inner tubes installed in the tires to prevent a loss of air during dynamic debeading. Of course inner tubes should only be used in a system with wheels and tires designed for them. Did NHTSA care? Weren't they concerned that their testing methods where becoming more absurd, the more they worked on them? Even the author of the report stated that only 3% of all fatalities were do to untripped rollover and that the great emphasis and effort was political and not scientifically based. So in a way, NHTSA's crappy test method led to future fatalities. 
P.S. To give you an idea of what NHTSA was doing, they were able to get over 1.6 g’s lateral force when maneuvering Ford’s “unstable” Ranger pickup truck.


----------



## H2O WOLF (Mar 30, 2000)

*Re: vehicles were dangerously unstable (john s)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Firestone had nothing to do with the pressure reduction, it was Ford's decision. Rollover of trucks became a hot topic. Heat was focusing on Ford's Bronco. The Bronco was being phased out and replaced with the Explorer. Ford's own tests showed that for certain types of maneuvers the new Explorer was worst than the Bronco. NHTSA was doing studies. They (NHTSA) decided to evaluate rollover propensity by measuring the height that a tire might lift off the road surface when the steering wheel is turned a fixed angular amount [a height greater that zero was deemed a failure] (if one disconnected the steering wheel from the steering mechanism the vehicle would pass with highest honors because it would show no propensity to lift a wheel, of course it would also show no propensity to go in the desired direction and would actually be as unsafe as you could get). Ford chose to reduce the front tire pressure, allowing great amounts of sidewall flex and tread distortion. This reduced the ability of the vehicle to turn which in turn reduced the propensity to lift the rear wheel. Mind you a driver turns the wheel whatever amount is required to avoid an obstacle, not a fixed angular amount. The "fix" done to the Ranger and Explorer was effective only for the artificial constraints of the test. Reducing tire pressure made the car less capable of avoiding objects and prone to overstraining the tires. When NHTSA tested the then new Explorer, it derimmed a tire in two different test scenarios. What did the NHTSA do? Did it send out letters warning Explorer owners? Did it change the test to be relevant to avoidance? Nope, in future testing they had inner tubes installed in the tires to prevent a loss of air during dynamic debeading. Of course inner tubes should only be used in a system with wheels and tires designed for them. Did NHTSA care? Weren't they concerned that their testing methods where becoming more absurd, the more they worked on them? Even the author of the report stated that only 3% of all fatalities were do to untripped rollover and that the great emphasis and effort was political and not scientifically based. So in a way, NHTSA's crappy test method led to future fatalities. 
P.S. To give you an idea of what NHTSA was doing, they were able to get over 1.6 g’s lateral force when maneuvering Ford’s “unstable” Ranger pickup truck.
[HR][/HR]​Whoa! Time for a little spacing and indentation


----------



## VW-MAN (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: Re: (VW-MAN)*

quote:[HR][/HR]So. With all this discussion on Vortex and Vtec sites, what oil should we run? There doesn't seem to be any concensus. I notice that my Mobil 1 5w30 is evaporating. This change I'm putting in Valvoline SynPower 5w40. We'll see how that does.







[HR][/HR]​Update:
I've had the SynPower in for about 2000 miles and it evaporates just like the Mobil 1 did. What oil does not evaporate in our cars???


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Re: (VW-MAN)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
I've had the SynPower in for about 2000 miles and it evaporates just like the Mobil 1 did. What oil does not evaporate in our cars???
[HR][/HR]​Well, no shyte. All these people talking about Synpower as if it's the nectar of the gods are forgetting that it's GROUP III BASESTOCK. It's exactly what we're looking NOT to use in this monstrous thread that I have started. 
I still have lots of old Tri-Syn M1 left, but I too am looking at all my options for when that runs out. I may go with the new Supersyn and see how it does, I may go with Amsoil, or I may try something else.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Re: (dbrowne1)*

The new Redline 5w-40 should be arriving at my house today....I'll try to post pics of the bottles and any relevant info........


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Re: (VW-MAN)*

quote:[HR][/HR]What oil does not evaporate in our cars?[HR][/HR]​None.
The oil is not evaporating, but is rather being "blown" out of your crankcase and into your intake tract. Blowby is past the piston rings (no way to avoid it). It then finds its way into the combustion chamber where it gets burned.
As for reducing consumption, you could try a heavier weight (10W 40 or 15W 50), or try shifting sooner (to keep the revs down).


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Re: (tyrolkid)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The new Redline 5w-40 should be arriving at my house today....I'll try to post pics of the bottles and any relevant info........[HR][/HR]​I'm interested in this, but Redline has admitted that their street oils are not 100% Group IV/V basestocks. Try to get a data sheet for it if you can...I haven't seen this oil on their website yet.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Re: (dbrowne1)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The new Redline 5w-40 should be arriving at my house today....I'll try to post pics of the bottles and any relevant info........
I'm interested in this, but Redline has admitted that their street oils are not 100% Group IV/V basestocks. Try to get a data sheet for it if you can...I haven't seen this oil on their website yet.[HR][/HR]​I forgot to ask for an MSDS for the 5w40, but the guy seemed nice enough on the phone. I'm sure they would send it to you if you asked......


----------



## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Everybody*

*MaximaGuy*, I used Valvoline Synpower after having my doubts about Mobil 1 about a year or year and a half ago. My car (a Honda Civic) had not used a drop of top-off oil in it’s first 95,000-100,000 miles (this is why I never had any serious doubts about the quality of Mobil 1’s base oil ). Once I started using Synpower however, I began to use a little oil, maybe as much as ½ quart per 3-4,000 miles. This was nowhere near troubling but annoyed me because it just wasn’t ‘perfect’ anymore.







The car continued to use oil like this until I switched to Red Line last summer. After about 10,000 miles, the oil usage returned to zero.








I blame Synpower’s base oil. At one point (according to their MSDS) it was all synthetic and their phone rep said it was 100% PAO (probably mostly PAO and a little ester for seals) with a then-healthy 1.5% ZDDP. If that’s the case, why did I all-of-a-sudden get increased consumption? And why did it go away two years later when I switched brands? I blame the volatility of their base oil ... and a few months ago someone sent me a fragment of their on-line MSDS sheet showing as much as sixty-something percent of their oil was Group III. Sorry Charlie, but that doesn’t sit well with me.








I had always thought that Valvoline had a fantastic reputation, and they do … for the average guy, but I don’t think I’ll be buying their stuff anymore. I got a little All-Climate left and then I’ll have totally switched over to Chevron for my mineral-based oils. I had heard that Valvoline doesn’t even make a lot of their own stuff but instead gets a great deal of it from a Canadian refinery (not Ashland). This was surprising. I had figured that since they were owned by Ashland, this is where their base stocks came from.
having said that, Max-Life seems to be a pretty decent oil for older cars, especially considering the price. It’s essentially a synthetic blend with a strong anti-wear package (molybdenum) but they don’t use the best form of moly so you don’t want to leave it in for much more than 3,000 miles for fear of corrosion in and around the bearings.
I don’t like to pay too much for anything, but paying an extra few bucks for quarts of motor oil is really no big deal. It costs thousands of dollars for us to keep a relatively new car on the road each year (don’t forget to factor in depreciation and insurance!). What’s another $20-30 per year for oil changes?








That’s how I justify shelling out for Red Line.







But those of you that don’t want the absolute best, there are a plethora of solid-performing PAO-based oils in the specialty market for $4-6 per quart: Schaeffer, Amsoil, etc … 
I still think it’s a good idea to stay away from the mass-market stuff, though. They are not significantly better than the “conventional” oils sitting on the shelves next to them for 1/3 the price. 
As *George* pointed out, the problem PAOs have in aircraft engines is supposedly insufficient lead scavenging. I don’t know if this would be the same with a polyol-intensive formula like Red Line. I see they use Red Line in the world-record setting “Nemesis” but that plane does not sit in a hangar for months and months without turning over. It’s essentially a race car that takes to the sky and its motor(s) is/are torn down just as frequently. Speaking of racing …
Like *tyrolkid*, I cannot believe that the Formula One teams use off-the-shelf Mobil 1. CART or Indy? Perhaps. Their engines are turbocharged and the power/boost is well regulated to keep things competitive and keep costs down. But this isn’t true of Formula One where _every single item_ is purposefully made to each team’s finicky specs to provide every last smidgeon of possible advantage. They probably have a dozen different motor oil formulas for qualifying, racing, different altitudes, temps, humidity levels, track layouts, etc …
Besides, why would you want to include additives such as anti-corrosives, pour point depressants and heavy detergents in an oil that will only be in a motor during warm weather and for a few hours? If you are using the same formula oil for both racing and the street, your racing performance will be compromised … and even 1-3% is significant in many motor sports these days. Race oils should be pure lubricant with anti-wear agents and perhaps additional anti-foaming additives to deal with the churning effect caused by high RPMs. 
Can’t you just see Ron Dennis of McLaren running down to the European equivalent of Target or Wal-Mart early on Sunday morning and grabbing an armload of SuperSyn quarts and then standing in line behind some fat momma buying Fritos as he checks his watch?







“Hey lady, can we move things along? I’m kind of in a hurry!”








*aaonms*, Motul uses all sorts of compounds in their base stocks: esters (diester & polyol), PAO and mineral. You really have to research each formula carefully and since their stuff is even more expensive than Red Line here in the States, I never looked into it.
Always interested in seeing what red Line is using as a base oil. Group V? Group IV & V? Some blend including mineral? I’ll keep monitoring this so please post if any of you find out.
Finally, for those of you who just can’t get enough discussion about oil and lubes in general, there is:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi
All civilized, intelligent and enthusiastic posters welcome.








--- *Bror Jace*



[Modified by Bror Jace, 5:48 PM 6-7-2002]


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Everybody (Bror Jace)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I still think it’s a good idea to stay away from the mass-market stuff, though. They are not significantly better than the “conventional” oils sitting on the shelves next to them for 1/3 the price.[HR][/HR]​I wouldn't hesitate to put Mobil 1 in my car, although I would prefer Redline or even Amsoil (which is what I went with on the basis of price). 
quote:[HR][/HR]Besides, why would you want to include additives such as anti-corrosives, pour point depressants and heavy detergents in an oil that will only be in a motor during warm weather and for a few hours? If you are using the same formula oil for both racing and the street, your racing performance will be compromised … and even 1-3% is significant in many motor sports these days. Race oils should be pure lubricant with anti-wear agents and perhaps additional anti-foaming additives to deal with the churning effect caused by high RPMs.[HR][/HR]​I agree. Redline has their Race Oils, for example, which have minimal additives to maximize power and lubrication.
quote:[HR][/HR]Can’t you just see Ron Dennis of McLaren running down to the European equivalent of Target or Wal-Mart early on Sunday morning and grabbing an armload of SuperSyn quarts and then standing in line behind some fat momma buying Fritos as he checks his watch?







“Hey lady, can we move things along? I’m kind of in a hurry!”







[HR][/HR]​ROTFLMAO!










[Modified by catalytic, 2:13 PM 6-7-2002]


----------



## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Everybody (Bror Jace)*

I agree with most of what you said Bror Jace, but I really do believe that in an actual race (not qualifying) Indy teams use Mobil 1 off the shelf. When you rebuild the engines so often anyway, it really doesn't matter what kind of oil you use. If I had the budget to rebuild mine every 1000 miles, I'd use the cheapest crap I could find.


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## MaximaGuy (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Everybody (Bror Jace)*

Bror Jace, I'm like you. If there is one area to splurge $$$ on a car, its the oil. 
6 months ago I didn't feel that way. Thought oil was oil, and bought the cheapest I could find on sale. Believed the old Consumer Reports article. Then, last Dec I accidently discovered a misprint in my Ford owners manual that calls for the wrong oil filter for my engine. Long story, but in the process of learning that I was "accidently" using the right filter all these years anyway, I stumbled on that infamous oil filter study on the internet. I was very suspicious of it at 1st. But when I associated my noisy engine valves to the Fram oil filters I religously bought for 20 years, I began to question my old assumptions. My suspicions disappeared "overnight" when that engine literally quieted up overnight after putting a Ford filter on it. When I switched filters on my 2 Nissans and their cold engine valve noise quietd down too, I was really humbled. Then I began to think back to all the other oil related problems I've had on older cars and began to wonder if I was making a Fram-sort-of-mistake with oil too. 
That led me to seriously consider synthetic oils once I started to read about their advantages. I've just now used up all that old stock of sale priced dino oil. Tried Valvoline in my Maxima after Val tech support told me it was PAO. Seems to work okay so far. But as you can tell from my other post, I'm having 2nd thoughts. 
Sorry for the life story, but wanted to share some oil analysis info from a Maxima site I follow as well. These guys collect & report oil analysis members send in. One of your old tests is included if my memory serves me right. I noticed 2 general trends reading thru all those oil analysis. One, you can't go on blind faith. For every GREAT oil analysis report that a brand of oil racks up, there seems to be another report of a different engine doing poorly with that same oil. Didn't matter if it was Mobil 1, Amsoil, or what. You really need to watch your engine condition and driving habits before marrying any brand of oil, and especially your drain interval. Secondly, Amsoil was a common brand submitted for analysis on this site, and I must say, it did pretty good. That oil sure seems to attract a love/hate following. But from someone who never heard of it 6 months ago, I couldn't help but notice it racked up some pretty impressive test results. A guy on that site offers to quote prices. I sent him an email. We'll see. 
Thanks for your advice. Chuck


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Mobil 1 SAE 15W-50 Volatility Data*









Finally got SuperSyn in 15W-50 in my area. Volatility is lower than Tri-Syn SJ formula. The 2 SL formulas have the same volatility up to 250°C then the Tri-Syn becomes better. The SuperSyn PAO is much better suited in this 15W oil than in the other thinner Mobil 1’s. The thinnest Exxon SuperSyn PAO has a viscosity of 150 cSt at 100°C, to put that into perspective this is 6 times thicker than SAE 60 grade oil. When SuperSyn was added to the thinner Mobil 1’s they had to add a substantial amount of small oil molecules to keep the oil viscosity down. This dramatically increased volatility, even for the 10W-30 grade (as was shown in earlier post plots). The 15W-50 grade does not suffer from this problem. As was noted earlier, the new SuperSyn has superior resistance to shear thinning. The Mobil marketing hype of better in all ways was not all false, they only forgot to mention it was only true of the SAE 15W-50 grade.


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*SuperSyn Family Volatility Data*









Big loser as reported some time ago is the 10w-30 grade. 0W-30 grade is actually better than the highly certified 0W-40 grade. The 15W-50 grade was slightly improved when compared to the SJ formula, the same held true for HTHSV; while the thinner grades showed a substantial improvement in this regard. Curves show you what it cost to run thin grades from a volatility standpoint, not much (or better) for the drop from 5W to 0W.


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## Tornado20v (May 21, 2002)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (tyrolkid)*

Man, I've read through this thread over and over ... still can't make up my mind. I've narrowed the choices to Mobil 1's Supersyn 5W-30 or Amsoil 5W-30.
I guess my past experience with Mobil 1 oil keeps coming back to haunt me. Let me explain ... I've been in Aviation for 14 years as a Pilot. Years ago, we had an FAA approved engine remanufacturing facility that was rebuilding Continental and Lycoming reciprocating engines, as well as jet / turbine powerplants. They were using Mobil 1 synthetic (aviation blend) exclusively. After several repeated engine failures, investigation determined the failures to be directly linked to the Mobil 1. They switched oil and the problems stopped. Coincidence? Maybe ...
I know many of you guys run it daily with no issues, and I'm sure its a fine automotive product, but I'm having a hard time forgetting. The only reason I prefer the Mobil 1 is due to the variety of viscosity choices. I don't like to switch brands once I start using a synthetic. It would be nice to use the 0W-40 for Summer or long road trips at sustained legal speeds (heavier weight), and the 5W-30 for Fall/ Winter driving. With Amsoil I can only use the 5W-30 year round. Plus it is tougher to buy, due to it's distribution network.
The oil is a big issue for me, since I'm planning on keeping this ride for a while. Anyone else feel this way or is it just me? It would make me feel more secure about using this product if one of our current members would run it for 5000 miles and then post the results of an oil analysis for review. Anyone willing? 


[Modified by Tornado20v, 5:05 AM 7-25-2002]


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## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (Tornado20v)*

I share your concerns. Due to availability issues, I'll stick with M1 which I've been using for the past 10K miles. I'll be changing oil today and putting in M1 5w30. If I'm not too lazy, I might do the oil analysis in 5K miles.
I'm still not 100% convinced on grades like 0w40 - such big spread means that a lot of additives/polymers must have been added to it, and that's not necessarily good for the engine. But neither is having not enough high-temp protection with a w30 grade, I guess. I just figure that if I don't race the car, I really don't need the extra protection, or do I?








Cheers,


----------



## Tornado20v (May 21, 2002)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (Quattro Pete)*

Tough call Pete, you might need it depending on how often your engine sees higher rpm and sustained speeds (hwy) etc. Please let us know what the results of the oil analysis are if you get around to doing it. That would give us all a clear picture of how the new Mobil 1 holds up after 5k miles of real-world driving. Thanks.
BTW - I noticed you're in Centreville ... I lived there for several years. Nice place


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (Tornado20v)*

quote:[HR][/HR]It would make me feel more secure about using this product if one of our current members would run it for 5000 miles and then post the results of an oil analysis for review. Anyone willing? 
[HR][/HR]​I expect to get results from my last sample of Mobil 1 5W30 SJ back anyday now. It was run for 4Kmiles, mostly highway, under very hot conditions. I'm expecting pretty good numbers as it was highway use.
I am currently running 5W30 Supersyn, and will analyze that too. Then we'll have a better idea.


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## Tornado20v (May 21, 2002)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (dbrowne1)*

dbrowne1:
I'm especially looking forward to seeing the 5W-30 SuperSyn results, as this is the newest synthetic in the Mobil 1 inventory. Email me when you have it, please. Thanks










[Modified by Tornado20v, 12:28 AM 7-26-2002]


----------



## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: 5W-40 oil Re: Quickie Analysis (Tornado20v)*

quote:[HR][/HR]BTW - I noticed you're in Centreville ... I lived there for several years. Nice place







[HR][/HR]​And I lived near Phoenix for some time, Glendale to be exact. Much nicer place than Centreville, at least these days - as northern VA economy boomed in the late '90s, this place became quite crowded and suffers from traffic congestion big time. I myself am part of the problem as I only moved here in 1999 ;-)
Cheers,


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## jim wilson (Jan 20, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Drivbiwire)*

quote:[HR][/HR]If you want maximum protection use Delvac 1 5w40. Its a real Group IV/V and rated SJ for gasoline engines. In the TDI's it reduce the cam wear found in the 5w30 engines from .001" per 30,000 miles down to only .0002" in 115,000 miles.
It flows at -65F lower than just about any 5w30 including Amoil 5w30.
Check out 
http://www.avlube.com 
and also
http://www.mobil-oil.com/mobil_lubes/onhighway/products_services/delvac1/index.html 
Delvac is ideal for extreme use turbo charged engines and I have yet to see any trace of sludge or residues in any engine using the stuff.
API CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF, SJ, SH 
Mack EO-M Plus, EO-M, EO-L Plus 
Cummins CES 20076, CES 20071 
Detroit Diesel 7SE270 
Caterpillar deposit performance 
2.0% distillation at 700°F 
Application 
Mobil Delvac 1 is recommended for diesel- and gasoline-powered fleet vehicles, such as over-the-road, off-the-road, truck rental, pickup-and-delivery, utility, and school bus fleets. Mobil Delvac 1 is capable of providing fuel economy benefits of up to 3% and more in heavy duty diesel engines with as much as a 40% reduction in oil make-up in over-the-road service. Mobil Delvac 1 
Typical Characteristics 
Product Number 44111-3 
SAE Grade 5W-40 
Gravity, API 32.3 
Pour Point, °C (°F) -54 (-65) 
Flash Point, ASTM D 92, °C (°F) 230 (446) 
Viscosity
cSt at 40° C
cSt at 100° C
SUS at 100° F
SUS at 210° F 
95.0
15.0
481
79 
Cranking Viscosity,
cP at -25° C 
3,200 
Pumping Viscosity,
cP at -35° C 
20,500 
Borderline Pumping Temperature, °C -44 
HT/HS, cP at 150° C 4.1 
Viscosity Index 167 
Sulfated Ash, wt % 1.3 
TBN, ASTM D 2896 11 
Color, ASTM D 1500 5 

DB

[Modified by Drivbiwire, 7:09 PM 4-7-2002][HR][/HR]​I was going to say that.
It's not bad paying $23 for 1 gallon on the TDI, but The 3.5 Gallons on the 7.3(~$80) is going to hurt. You can get the stuff at Flying J.


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (jim wilson)*

Mobil 1 5W30 SJ analysis results are in:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000069


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

So, you guys have given up talking about oil??


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## Quattro Pete (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Bror Jace)*

How dare you raise this thread from the dead!!!








So, when are you picking up your new car, Bror?







What oil will it get?


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## VWKidd82 (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (Quattro Pete)*

Please don't laugh, but whats the deal.. I have been using Mobil 1 5W-30 in my car since I got with 14,000 miles on it. It now has 30,000 on it. Is using the new formula going to hurt in the long run?? I am totally blown away about all the information that I have read in only the first 3 pages of this topic. I have had no extended knowlege of oils, but I have been told all along that oil is oil. I started to use " fully synthetic" oil or what I thought to be in my car because it was a turbo and wanted to protect it for long life. My car seems to use about a quart in between changes. I have been changing every 3,000 miles. I have also been told that european cars tend to use more oil then other cars. My previous car was a honda accord that used barely any oil between changes (every 3,000). It had 140,000 on it when I got rid of it and had always used valvoline convention oil in it. 
I don't mind spending more on oil if it going to save me money down the road.. so in the end, do other brands have a very significant differance in the long run here. I would like to keep this car 100K+. Also, I am more of a "conservative" driver.. I don't plan to chip my car and don't drive the hell out of it. Thanks..


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (VWKidd82)*

Evil thread....BEGONE! Back from whence you came! DEMONS OUT!


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## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (dbrowne1)*

summary - we are nitpicking hairs here








use whatever oil you have.
i plan on using the old formula 5w30 in my car till i run out ~ 5oil changes, by then i will find drowne1 who will be making his own oil basestock by then, who i will trust to make me an excellent lubricant.


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## Mimi03GTI (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

Thanks for the info on Mobil 1 which I use in my wifes Taurus SHO. I use AMSOIL's best in my GTI, 'Series 2000 OW-30', and change it every 6000 miles with filter....It is great in extemely hot and cold situations...Ran my modded old 300 ZX Twin Turbo on that stuff....Never heard anything bad about it so I stick with it. This is one slick oil! If there is a better proven oil, then I may just switch.....But until then, I'll stay an AMSOILholic.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (AxeAngel)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i will find drowne1 who will be making his own oil basestock by then, who i will trust to make me an excellent lubricant.[HR][/HR]​Talk to Terry Dyson over at bobistheoilguy.com. He has all but offered to make custom oils for specific applications, with additives tailored to the engine and conditions.
Actually, I think Mobil has finally hit the nail on the head. They're using an entirely PAO basestock now (no esters) in the Supersyn (according to a very reliable source), and they are using an add package that includes moly, which is also a big plus (and this I know for a fact).


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## Woz (Jun 22, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (mimikos)*

Sorry really don't want to interrupt this thread but could someone tell me what oil to use ... Living in Ireland Min Degrees C. 0 Max deg. 20..... 
Just the one reply will do... Sorry for getting in the middle of this topic.
W


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Woz)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Sorry really don't want to interrupt this thread but could someone tell me what oil to use ... Living in Ireland Min Degrees C. 0 Max deg. 20..... 
Just the one reply will do... Sorry for getting in the middle of this topic.
W[HR][/HR]​You should have Mobil 1 5W-40 available over there. Use that if you can, otherwise use the 0W-40 or 0W-30.


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## Woz (Jun 22, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

Great, thanks a million...
Sorted. W


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## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (Woz)*

wow, i can't believe this is still going...
dbrowne1 said something i would have to agree with, people are talking about oil like it's gold... not saying one isn't better then other but this is just my 2 cents, it may not mean much but may bring some new info
i used to own an RX-7, i know a completely different beast that synthetic was not recommended for... anyhow, when i decided on oil for that car and the oil for my 1.8t i used the engine oil bible online showing specs of each oil
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html
on the RX-7 using 20w50 dino oil it was down to valvoline as one of the final choices because of it's high viscosity index and zinc content... used it once, it smoked a lot, and looked the numbers over again, didn't like the fact it had very high ash content
next time when with castrol and never looked back, then it came time for the 1.8t, not many options for 5w40, and i've always heard and read the bigger the gap in numbers the more additives added for molecular stability, not a good thing, so i when 5w30, and again, high ash from the valvoline, i'm sticking with castrol, maybe for silly reasons but they haven't failed me yet
i would have gone mobil 1 from the beginning but when i bought the car i found the vortex and found mobil was straying from real synthetic, i don't dig that move, even though i know most synthetics now are that way, but it's nothing any better then anyone else now


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (mjmi11er)*

Mobil has not strayed from "real synthetics". That was the viscious rumor that started this thread. Castrol, however, strayed a long time ago.


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## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

yeah, i knew castrol had strayed, so where did the mobil stray rumor come from? what is castrol syntec if not sythetic, should i just be buying dino oil?


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (mjmi11er)*

You haven't actually read this whole thread, huh?


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## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

yep, just went back and read the entire thing. following on the mobil issue... inconsistany is not good in any case to me. is there somewhere that describes what different basestocks stand for?
never mind, found one.


[Modified by mjmi11er, 10:49 PM 3-21-2003]


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## epunk (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

dbrowne1, have any idea of what groups the Motul Synthese 6100 5W-40 oil is made of?


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (epunk)*

I know the 8100 uses Group V (it's diester based - somewhere inbetween PAO and the polyesters that Redline uses in terms of cost). Motul uses esters quite a bit in their oils, and I am 95% sure that the 6100 Synergie is a PAO/ester based oil like the old Mobil 1 tri-synthetic formula.


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## epunk (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

Thanks for the info! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








I was looking on Motul's site and for some reason, they removed info on the 6100 5w-40...


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## EDM (Sep 5, 2000)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (epunk)*

Has anyone tried Neo Oil yet? http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/5w30.htm


[Modified by SONIC S, 1:53 PM 3-23-2003]


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Updates*

_How dare you raise this thread from the dead!” _
*Bror* is a bad boy.















The car (Sentra Spec-V) is ordered and I’ll get it in a week or two. Oil will be Schaeffer Supreme 7000 for the first 10K-12K. Then I want to try Red Line again with testing. Civic samples were all contaminated with coolant.
*VWKidd82*, I think you are right in that many of us put WAAAayyy too much thought into oil selection. If you change your oil & filter every 3,000 miles and drive normally, you should be fine with just about any oil even for 100,000 or more miles. 
But oil is NOT oil, the additive packages are very different as are the base oils and if you drive your car hard (high RPMs) and/or you want to go more than 3,000 miles in between changes, you better not be using some cheap stuff or your motor will show signs of serious wear (blue smaoke, excess consumption and loss of power) before 100K miles.
*mimikos* _ “. I use AMSOIL's best … 'Series 2000 OW-30' … ran my modded old 300 ZX Twin Turbo on that stuff ... never heard anything bad about it so I stick with it. If there is a better proven oil, then I may just switch ...” _
If you want the absolute best stuff, I’d try Red Line in 5W30 or 10W30 if it’s fairly warm where you live. With steady use it has provided the most impressive results of any oil showcased on the oildrop forum … even in Toyota engines known for being tough on an oil.
*dbrowne1*: _ “I think Mobil has finally hit the nail on the head. They're using an entirely PAO basestock now (no esters) in the Supersyn.”_
Um, we’re still debating that on the oildrop forum. When the inimitable *MolaKule* is convinced this is the case, I’ll be satisfied. Until that time, I think *GeorgeCLS* may have jumped the gun and his comments may refer to a synthetic development which may still be years away from being put on the shelves.
*SONIC S*, I found a dude who was going to use NEO and then post his results on the oildrop forum … but I don’t know if he ever did.


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## Mimi03GTI (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info **Update 4/12** (dbrowne1)*

Everything you need to know about oils.....Check this site out for lots of info... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/engineoil_bible.html


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## Mimi03GTI (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Updates (Bror Jace)*

I've used Redline before, and their oil is pretty good also, maybe the same but not better....Actually I would say all pure synthetics are great for your car, so whatever people choose should be good for their car. I believe AMSOIL Series 2000 OW-30 has to be one of the best ones out there when it comes to wear in all temperatures. Look at the stats of this particular oil.... 
TYPICAL PHYSICAL PROPERTIES (revised 08/02) 

AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 0W-30 Motor Oil (TSO)

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
11.3

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
57.3

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
196

Cold Crank Simulator Apparent Viscosity @ -30°C, cP (ASTM D 2602)
2993

Borderline Pumping Temperature °C (°F) (ASTM D3829) -40 (-40)

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)
-51 (-60)

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)
226 (439)

Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) 240 (464)

Noack Volatility (DIN 51581) 250°C for 1 hour, % weight loss 9.2

High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity cP, X°C, X s-1 (ASTM D4683) 3.5

Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172: 40kgf, 150°C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr) Scar diameter, mm 0.373

Total Base Number
>11.0

Very impressive I must say.

http://go-synthetic.com/redline_vs_amsoil/redline_vs_amsoil.html


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Updates (Bror Jace)*

[QUOTE*dbrowne1*: _ “I think Mobil has finally hit the nail on the head. They're using an entirely PAO basestock now (no esters) in the Supersyn.”_
Um, we’re still debating that on the oildrop forum. When the inimitable *MolaKule* is convinced this is the case, I’ll be satisfied. Until that time, I think *GeorgeCLS* may have jumped the gun and his comments may refer to a synthetic development which may still be years away from being put on the shelves.
[/QUOTE]
I would tend to believe George more than most people when it comes to Mobil products. If anybody on the boards would know, it would be him.


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Re: Updates (dbrowne1)*

*dbrowne1*, have you been following the discussion in that “Mobil 1 & Esters” thread? I really think *George Morrison* is mistaken. *MolaKule’s* technical credentials are more impressive and he does not have a financial interest in one brand, unlike *George*. Here’s a link to that thread:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001714;p=1
Until I see some convincing evidence to the contrary, I believe that *George* heard/read some technical paper about future developments in the works at Mobil and incorrectly assumed that it applied to oils currently in distribution. The idea that Mobil took out a critical ingredient which all PAO-based synthetics have used for the past couple of decades and only one guy knows about makes me highly skeptical.
*mimikos*, that engine oil bible site is an old one and it’s mostly for European oils plus it’s dated as it only goes up to SJ. Not bad info … but certainly not the last word on oil as it portends to be. Too many developments have occurred in additives, viscosity improvers, etc … in the last couple of years for it to be considered completely current. There is an often-cited Hackett study out there as well … but that is even _more_ dated.
As for Amsoil vs. Red Line, the latter uses a higher percentage of a better ester and a stouter additive package (600ppm of molybdenum vs. the more common zinc phosphate). Amsoil may be more _cost effective_ but I still say that Red Line is the better oil and when used consistently in a car, gives simply amazing results ... even in Toyota engines which turn other oils into Jello. 
As for that Red Line vs. Amsoil link, those test comparisons were debated on the oildrop forum as well. Both sides were not telling the whole story but I’ve forgotten the specifics.
_ “all pure synthetics are great for your car …” _
I like the way you stipulated “pure” and by that I assume you mean no Group III pretenders?







Since that weeds out a lot of “lesser” oils, I tend to agree. However, don’t discount the effectiveness of the additive packages. Oil analysis often shows Schaeffer 10W30 synthetic blend with moly (using a mostly mineral base oil) outperforming Mobil 1 SuperSyn as long as you don’t stretch the interval too long (around 4,000 miles or so).
Oh, and do you know that Amsoil is switching its cheaper line of oils over to Group III? Again, for more on this try the oildrop forum where all the above has been discussed in detail. Try several searches on key words.


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## Mimi03GTI (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Updates (Bror Jace)*

Thanks for the info....I'm very impressed with all your knowledge. Someone who really knows about oils.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dbrowne1 (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Updates (Bror Jace)*

I've been following that thread over at bobistheoilguy. I don't see why George would make, and repeat, such a statement if he didn't really believe it to be true. There's nothing really bad about esters, many oils are primarily ester based (Motul and Redline come to mind), so I don't see how he'd be selling more oil by doing this.
We'll see I guess.


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## christobob (Sep 21, 2002)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (SurrealGTI)*

Is 0W-30 too thin? I thought it was supposed to decrease friction. - And now that I've seen this post, I realize I haven't seen much of the "Extreme formula" on the shelves lately - mostly SuperSyn enhanced fuel economy.


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## Power5 (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (christobob)*

0W-30 is only thin on startup, which helps the oil flow faster. Being synthetic the oil bonds to the metal better than Dino oil, so there is still lubrication.
My friend is having an analysis done on his Amsoil from his Golf. His car is modified as well. If anyone has any analysis for Redline, we can compare. Redline engineers are ex-Amsoil engineers I believe as well. I have no problem with Amsoil, thats why I started distributing it.


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## Bror Jace (May 3, 2002)

*Catching up (s'more)*

_ “0W-30 is only thin on startup, which helps the oil flow faster.” _
There are two ways of making a 0W30. One is too take a really thin oil (PAO based with Mobil 1 and Amsoil) and pump it up with a lot of viscosity index improver (VII) … but this stuff is prone to shearing down. After a couple thousand miles, it could be a 0W20. The second way is to take a slightly thicker PAO-based synthetic and boost its ester content (percentage) to make it flow better at lower temps. This second method makes for a more shear-stable oil but it is also more expensive because esters cost more to produce than polymer VII. Of course, oils can be a (limitless) combination of the two methods and that may be the current trend as mass market oils are produced to a price point.
_ “Red Line engineers are ex-Amsoil engineers I believe as well.” _
I have never heard this before. Do you have anything which supports this? Names? Links? I’m not sure it’s a big deal either way but I’m still curious if this is true. They are very different oils and go after very different segments of the market.
One of the regulars on *BobisTheOilGuy* got a batch of the most recent (SL) Royal Purple 5W30 and ran it in a Honda Civic for only 2,600 miles before having it tested:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000441;p=1#000031


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## jim wilson (Jan 20, 2000)

*Re: Catching up (Bror Jace)*

I just use delvac1


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## DubWho (Jan 19, 2003)

*Re: Catching up (jim wilson)*

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/turbine1.htm
Cool website that mentions using Mobile 0w40 and Amsoil 0w30 in a Jet Turbine!


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## adema69 (Jun 4, 2006)

So is Mobile 1 15w50 good or bad to use in a 1.8t


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: (adema69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adema69* »_So is Mobile 1 15w50 good or bad to use in a 1.8t

That's too heavy. Stick with the factory recommended 5w-40, or in the case of M1, 0w-40.


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## rodney_dubs (Mar 2, 2008)

15w50 would probably be a good choice for a really high boost car or possibly at the road course if your oil temperatures get out of control. 
Like he said, for 99% of people that is too heavy.


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## adema69 (Jun 4, 2006)

so what i spike like 26psi and hold 20 would it mess my car up?


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## rodney_dubs (Mar 2, 2008)

I meant it would work well for guys making 500+ whp


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

*Re: Attention Mobil 1 Users...Important Info (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_Why not just run 5-40 Synth from Valvoline? Or am I missing something? 

x2, i always use this.


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## adema69 (Jun 4, 2006)

haha ok so i guess i go return it then


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## rajvosa71000 (Jun 9, 2004)

*Re: (adema69)*

Ok, lets say, 5w40 oil...number "5" is for cold starts, the lower the number the better your oil is for cold starts, 40 would be your heat range protection, the higher the number the better heat protection you get from the oil.
Lets say you drive your car hard during the summer, or auto cross with it, I think 15w50 wouldn't be bad, sice your oil will never be to cold to need a lower first number, and 50 is good for hot engines, due to hard driving etc. it retains better oil viscosity.
Somebody correct me if Im wrong.


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: (rajvosa71000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rajvosa71000* »_Ok, lets say, 5w40 oil...number "5" is for cold starts, the lower the number the better your oil is for cold starts, 40 would be your heat range protection, the higher the number the better heat protection you get from the oil.
Lets say you drive your car hard during the summer, or auto cross with it, I think 15w50 wouldn't be bad, sice your oil will never be to cold to need a lower first number, and 50 is good for hot engines, due to hard driving etc. it retains better oil viscosity.
Somebody correct me if Im wrong.

You say _"...and 50 is good for hot engines..."_
My question is "good" compared to what? I've yet to see any empirical or scientific evidence that suggests that a late model VW engine needs anything more than what VW has speced for it, regardless of how hard its driven or how insanly its modified.
Lacking any concrete evidence, I'd stay with the 5W-40s and 0W-40s.


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## beenthere (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (rajvosa71000)*

If you've ever tested the cold flow of oil at ambient temps like 72 F, you'd see the oil is much thicker than you realize and thus doesn't flow well in modern engines that have relatively tight internal engine clearances, until the oil gets up in the 150 F range or above. 
Even when the oil is hot, 50 weight isn't an ideal viscosity for a modern engine with std. clearances. Proper engine lubrication depends on both the viscosity and chemical properties of the oil. A certain volume of oil flow is required to cool parts such as the bearings, journals, cam lobes, valve stems, etc. A heavier weight oil like a 50 weight can be too thick in many applications to provide the volume flow required for cooling and lubrication. 
VW would be the authority on what is the correct oil for their engines as they run durability tests all the time in addition to actually having factory race cars for development use. VW spec 5W-40 oils have proven to be an excellent choice for even hard driven engines. More is not always better regarding oil viscosity. Most oil companies recommend that you not use a 15W-50 or 20W-50 in modern pass car engines for the reasons listed above.


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