# Tyrolsport deadset rigid subframe collar kit group buy underway



## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...t-Rigid-Subframe-Collar-Kits-(Front-amp-Rear)


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...nt-amp-Rear)&p=81692223&posted=1#post81692223


 Is there a thread that discusses the problem that this group buy solves? It sounds like our cars will develop annoying squeaks without these kits. Is that right?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Williamttrs said:


> Is there a thread that discusses the problem that this group buy solves? It sounds like our cars will develop annoying squeaks without these kits. Is that right?


 Yes. The link has all the info and several reviews.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

I installed this kit on my TT last week as the steering was feeling a little vague and sloppy when car was not being driven under load (e.g., cruising on the highway and lazily changing lanes, slowly driving in a parking lot etc). Even after an alignment, the sloppy steering did not change. 

When I removed the factory bolts, rub marks from the base of the bolt head were on the subframe which I can only guess is from subframe shifting. After installing the DeadSet kit and getting the car realigned, the steering feels tight and precise and slop seems to have gone. 

My car is over 5 years old so the situation was apparent and gains very evident. That being said, I am convinced this will happen to any car that is driven hard on a regular basis. I will do this as one of the first mods on any MK5/MK6 chassis car I get down the line regardless of age as a preventative measure. 

One word of advice is to have a friend around if working without a lift and jack the car up high enough to allow lowering the subframe and still have space to work. My subframe was not close to centered and working by myself, I did not want to lower it with all 4 bolts out so worked the install 2 at a time; this was a PITA and I ended up installing just the lower collars for the subframe and both upper/lower for the control arms. If I do it again, I would lower the subframe, line everything up and install collars- they are brass and damage easy so you need to be precise and careful. If unsure, bring it to a competent shop and let them take care of it ... I will post up pics of my install in a separate thread. 

Excellent modification, I am pleased.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

pal said:


> I installed this kit on my TT last week as the steering was feeling a little vague and sloppy when car was not being driven under load (e.g., cruising on the highway and lazily changing lanes, slowly driving in a parking lot etc). Even after an alignment, the sloppy steering did not change.
> 
> When I removed the factory bolts, rub marks from the base of the bolt head were on the subframe which I can only guess is from subframe shifting. After installing the DeadSet kit and getting the car realigned, the steering feels tight and precise and slop seems to have gone.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. That was the kind of explanation I was hoping for. The link at the top of the thread is mainly info from the product seller and then several people saying they purchased them, but not really much independent discussion about the problem itself.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Williamttrs said:


> Thanks. That was the kind of explanation I was hoping for. The link at the top of the thread is mainly info from the product seller and then several people saying they purchased them, but not really much independent discussion about the problem itself.


 The first review link goes into incredible detail about what the problem is and how the kit addresses it, including a video! Did you not even bother to click thru? 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-TyrolSport-DeadSet-Rigid-Subframe-Collar-Kit


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> The first review link goes into incredible detail about what the problem is and how the kit addresses it, including a video! Did you not even bother to click thru?
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-TyrolSport-DeadSet-Rigid-Subframe-Collar-Kit


 I did click through and I scrolled down to the discussions and read the text. I did not click on the various links. Just browsing, not trying to make a supreme court case out of the mattereace:


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Yeah but you're missing out on seeing a Prius get modded


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Yeah but you're missing out on seeing a Prius get modded


 Okay. Now I am going to watch. That must be priceless.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Looks like they've already got enough people for the 20% pricepoint.


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## bbsstock (Jan 18, 2011)

I ordered one for my audi tts.


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## [email protected] (Mar 25, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Looks like they've already got enough people for the 20% pricepoint.


 Looks like I will have to follow John on another mod. Sigh - I might as well have you send me a spread sheet so I can get a budget together....


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

pal said:


> I installed this kit on my TT last week as the steering was feeling a little vague and sloppy when car was not being driven under load (e.g., cruising on the highway and lazily changing lanes, slowly driving in a parking lot etc). Even after an alignment, the sloppy steering did not change.
> 
> When I removed the factory bolts, rub marks from the base of the bolt head were on the subframe which I can only guess is from subframe shifting. After installing the DeadSet kit and getting the car realigned, the steering feels tight and precise and slop seems to have gone.
> 
> ...


 I installed a set on a 2011 Mk6 GTI this past winter... It is a PITA install in a garage using jack stands. I was able to get all of the bushings installed, but had to use (Audi) factory bolts in the rear positions since they have a taper vs the Tyrol supplied bolts. That is really my only complaint about the kit... It would be a much easier install of the bolts had a profile like the Audi bolts, so that it would be easier to start them without cross threading. 

All that being said, the kit really tightened up the feel of the steering on the GTI. The GTI is on air bags with a front frame notch, so I was concerned with subframe shift, which their kit addressed.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

In theory, the subframe bolts never take any shear loads (other than in an accident). Their job is to be tightened up and apply enough axial load to clamp the subframe to the body. When shear loads are then applied (such as by the lower control arm when turning), it is the friction force of the join that resists any sliding of the subframe. 

If the bolts supply sufficient axial force, and the friction coefficients are high enough, then the slop in the holes makes no difference. 

For someone's subframe to move, the bolts must be relaxing, or they must not have had sufficient torque applied initially to guarantee sufficient friction force. 

The TSB "fix" includes friction plates to increase friction force. Some complain that this is still not enough, but are they associated with these collar vendors? 

As for that video from Spoon, it looked like a bunch of BS to me. Less suspension travel over a bump because your subframe sits flatter against your chassis? No way. It's be as simple as driving the car at slightly different speed over the bump in that video to show that difference (or different tire pressure). 

If the aftermarket collars don't yield during assembly and full every last bit of slop in the subframe mounting holes, then you're back to the same issue of requiring the bolt force to prevent any movement (the collars do nothing until shear friction force has been exceeded and the subframe starts to move, and then hits the collar). 

VW/Audi put aluminum bolts there for a reason. I assume it is for shear in an accident as mentioned in that thread. There is no way a steel bolt of roughly twice the diameter has the same shear strength as the narrow aluminum bolts (not to mention the effect of the collars). *IF* those aluminum bolt strengths were specifically designed to help yield and move in a major accident, then you are completely changing that behavior by adding beefy steel bolts in their place. No question. 

Has anyone looked at what the OEM bolt / friction plate configuration is on the stock TT-RS?


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> In theory, the subframe bolts never take any shear loads (other than in an accident). Their job is to be tightened up and apply enough axial load to clamp the subframe to the body. When shear loads are then applied (such as by the lower control arm when turning), it is the friction force of the join that resists any sliding of the subframe.
> 
> If the bolts supply sufficient axial force, and the friction coefficients are high enough, then the slop in the holes makes no difference.
> 
> ...


 I haven't had my TT-RS subframe off yet, but on my GTI the subframe had moved around with the original OEM setup. I could see the rub marks on the frame rails. I actually went to the friction washers + Audi bolts that ECS Tuning sells before installing the Tyrol bushings. The ECS setup probably does the job, but doesn't help one reinstall the subframe centered to the body like the Tyrol bushings do. There is an OEM tool/pin setup that one should use to reinstall the subframe, but I doubt most DIY mechanics have that in their tool box.


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Marty said:


> In theory, the subframe bolts never take any shear loads (other than in an accident). Their job is to be tightened up and apply enough axial load to clamp the subframe to the body. When shear loads are then applied (such as by the lower control arm when turning), it is the friction force of the join that resists any sliding of the subframe.
> 
> If the bolts supply sufficient axial force, and the friction coefficients are high enough, then the slop in the holes makes no difference.
> 
> ...


 Very articulate. Some of these mods make me really wonder. This car OEM with the Toyos runs tracks at times very close (faster on some) to that of an M3, which most people think is the high performance/value standard bearer. I think there's some serious placebo effect going on lately. But hey, tinkering with cars is fun so no harm done.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> In theory, the subframe bolts never take any shear loads (other than in an accident). Their job is to be tightened up and apply enough axial load to clamp the subframe to the body.
> 
> 
> > Interesting discussion... Are you planning to test a set out?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> I haven't had my TT-RS subframe off yet, but on my GTI the subframe had moved around with the original OEM setup. I could see the rub marks on the frame rails. I actually went to the friction washers + Audi bolts that ECS Tuning sells before installing the Tyrol bushings. The ECS setup probably does the job, but doesn't help one reinstall the subframe centered to the body like the Tyrol bushings do. There is an OEM tool/pin setup that one should use to reinstall the subframe, but I doubt most DIY mechanics have that in their tool box.


 Yeah, that's the big mystery: why is the subframe moving? The bolts must be relaxing, or their preloads must not be sufficient for the joint friction forces to handle all of the shear loads. Clearly it's moving since there are so many reports of markings showing sliding. 

Definitely lots of placebo, too...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Marty said:
> 
> 
> > In theory, the subframe bolts never take any shear loads (other than in an accident). Their job is to be tightened up and apply enough axial load to clamp the subframe to the body.
> ...


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> JohnLZ7W said:
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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Marty said:
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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> JohnLZ7W said:
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> > Marty said:
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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> You can find a picture of the OEM front subframe bolts for a MK6 here: http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_VI--2.0T/Search/Subframe/ES2594692/
> 
> The bolts in question are the blacks ones... not aluminum, but definitely not run of the mill bolts either.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. Here's the original Passat TSB: http://nateronline.com/Technical_Bulletins/2007.04.02_front_suspension_knocking_noise_ALL.pdf 

It doesn't mention anything about the original bolts being shear bolts (or not). I briefly looked around and couldn't find anything official from VW discussing this. Regardless, it looks like the OEM Audi bolts are normal fully-threaded bolts (not the funky multi-diameter VW bolts). 

I'll probably give 'em a try.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_VI--2.0T/Search/Subframe/ES2594692/ 

The above link suggests that all of the subframe bolts are stretch bolts that need to be replaced when dropping the subframe, but the Tyrolsport kit only includes brass collars and 2 ARP bolts (well, technically they're all screws...). 

The install instructions just mention loosening up the other subframe bolts enough to get the collars in, and then re-tightening them. According to the service manual for the car, any subframe bolt that is removed must be replaced. So this "kit" should have included the OEM set of replacement bolts for those that are loosened in the install process... 

Another interesting note is that the service manual shows a special alignment tool (T10096) that is threaded into the holes and locates the subframe during installation (similar to the collars, but it's just in place temporarily while the bolts are tightened): 










Here's step-by-step for an older GTI (but a similar process is shown in the TT-RS service manual) that shows the alignment pins and calls out for replacing every subframe bolt: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums//attachment.php?attachmentid=29463&d=1217121021


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

FWIW, I checked all of the subframe bolts today with a magnet and none of them were aluminum


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> FWIW, I checked all of the subframe bolts today with a magnet and none of them were aluminum


Good to know. I wonder why Audi recommends replacement? Perhaps they are in fact designed to yield slightly when torqued to spec.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> Good to know. I wonder why Audi recommends replacement? Perhaps they are in fact designed to yield slightly when torqued to spec.


This is probably my biggest grip working on VAG cars... So many of the bolts, nuts, fasteners are supposed to be replaced per the factory manual (yes, I have them), yet those fasteners are difficult to track down. Once you have the part numbers, they are easy enough to order of course. However, major tuners and VAG part vendors could easily list the part numbers out to save digging through the online part systems. ECS has recently started to offer subframe bolt kits, but that wasn't the case a year ago.

My thinking is that some of the bolts are installed with torque to yield specs. Hub bolts are a likely example. In other cases, I think that VAG says to replace the fasteners because of concerns like loosing self locking capabilities (ex: various nuts used on the suspension) or corrosion coatings (ex: steel bolts in aluminum assemblies). It is clear that many of the bolts aren't actually installed to the yield point, as if that was the case, failures from reuse would be much more common.

Note: Specifying the installation as a torque value + degree turn is not the same thing as "torque to yield". The former provides greater accuracy over a torque value alone, as it eliminates turning friction, but doesn't mean that a bolt is going to be installed to any particular stress point. Torque to yield usually is spec'd using an initial torque + degree turn, as the installation must be much more precise to avoid going too far and having the bolt fail. So they are related, but that doesn't mean that they are always used together.


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