# POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details



## [email protected] (Feb 18, 1999)

I just got an email from our friends at Volkswagen and Audi Accessories. They're very impressed with the quick results you guys posted on the first poll, and wanted to give us more information on the system and run a second poll.
As you probably already know if you answered the first poll, some of our friends in Volkswagen and Audi Accessories for VWoA and AoA are considering providing an MP3 solution for our cars, but they need some input. 
The Phat Box, is basically a harddrive that hooks in like a CD changer. They are definitely considering doing a version of the Phat Box for our VWs and Audis. The unit they would sell would be a 20 gig hard drive, connect to the factory CD harness and navigation will be facilitated by a text to speech engine. The MSRP would be about $750. 
You can find more info on the product here. http://www.phatnoise.com 
This thread is to guage interest, so please help out by voting in the poll, and also posting below what kind of car you own, specifically VW or Audi. For those who already voted in the first one, please feel free to vote again in this one. They want more direct results based on the pricing and detail questions that came up in the first poll.


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## GLS99 (Jul 18, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

See Signature for vehicle type. 
This box would be rendered unnecessary if VW offered a HU with MP3 capabilities. Then you could just play a 50-cent CD-R chock-full of MP3s. 
As I said in my post for the earlier poll, VW should offer a double-din HU (that works properly) equipped with RDS and is XM and/or Sirius-ready.


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## VeeDubDriver (Oct 1, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

$750 seems like too high a price considering I already own a MiniDisc recorder and a Blaupunkt MiniDisc HU that I use in my car. Let's remember, this is basically just a hard drive and some software, so the price should be lower, especially if it is sold in large numbers by VW. If the cost were closer to that of a CD Changer, I would consider it, especially if it would residualize into a lease.


[Modified by VeeDubDriver, 11:40 AM 5-14-2002]


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## landrumdh (Feb 12, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

That's not 1/2 bad. As long as that included the USB hookups to attach to my PC I would look into getting one.
My question is though for those of us who have the single din HU's would we need to replace our changers with a single in dash and then get the phat box or could have both worlds? I'm bringing this up because alot of us have already dumped atleast 300 dollars into getting a 6 disc changer. I know you can't answer this I'm just trying to bring it to VWoA's attention.
But I have been looking for a good mp3 solution for my car, and getting a new HU was basically my only option, but this would be nice if I could run it off of my stock HU because it'd allow us to have high functionality yet keep our cars from getting broken into b/c they still appear to have a stock radio!!


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## micjohns (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I might consider it If I could still use my cd-changer(which I doubt). I would probably be willing to pay up to 450 max for it though.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (micjohns)*

I think VW should stay away from this one. People who really would pay the extra coin for such a thing (and it won't be cheap!) are going to get the base AM radio to keep the car's cost down and then buy exactly what they want from the aftermarket. Factory audio is always first on the chopping block.
Look at all the people bashing Monsoon!


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## micjohns (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (micjohns)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I might consider it If I could still use my cd-changer(which I doubt). I would probably be willing to pay up to 450 max for it though.[HR][/HR]​Found out the answer to my question(sort of). I went to PhatBox's website and found the following:
_*Can I use my existing multi-CD changer and the PhatBox?* If your headunit supports multiple CD changers, then the PhatBox and a CD changer can be used together. Check with your local auto sound installer for additional information and accessories. _
Do our headunits support multiple cd-changers?


[Modified by micjohns, 9:59 AM 5-14-2002]


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## Honda_to_VW (Mar 2, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (GLS99)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...This box would be rendered unnecessary if VW offered a HU with MP3 capabilities. Then you could just play a 50-cent CD-R chock-full of MP3s. 
As I said in my post for the earlier poll, VW should offer a double-din HU (that works properly) equipped with RDS and is XM and/or Sirius-ready. [HR][/HR]​What he said.


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## Andrman (Apr 6, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

No matter which car I own or will own, I would not buy that. Burning CDs is very simple and inexpensive, plus the CD burner provides many other uses.


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Honda_to_VW)*

That's absolutely what I would do - but are you saying that new/current VW head unit WONT play Cd-Rs?? If so, that sucks! My 3-yr old Sony CD changer in my Corrado plays CD-Rs!
Can somebody clarify the above? Thanks.


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## achtung (Mar 2, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

It's too expensive at this point. This is like the 1st generation of this product. Remember when portable CD players with MP3 support came out a few years ago? They were a couple hundred dollars - now you can get a CD/MP3 player for 50 bucks. Same with car head units - they are coming down. In fact, the Ford Ranger has an MP3-capable head unit as a $150 option now. I think the PhatBox appeals more to the audio show kids. I think the average MP3 fan is techno-savvy enough to have much cheaper ways of bringing MP3 en masse to their cars. 
However, the HU method requires that you burn the files onto a CD, and you're limited to around 800MB. The hard drive solution is much better as far as capacity. A 20GB Rio will run you over $320 on Amazon.com, and you can line-in to your head unit. So figure you're paying at least twice that (plus installation) for the ability to have the same capacity mounted in the trunk but with easier countrols.


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## achtung (Mar 2, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (John Y)*

quote:[HR][/HR]That's absolutely what I would do - but are you saying that new/current VW head unit WONT play Cd-Rs?? If so, that sucks! My 3-yr old Sony CD changer in my Corrado plays CD-Rs!
Can somebody clarify the above? Thanks.[HR][/HR]​I think as long as you close the CD-R out and make it a CD Audio disc, then virtually ALL CD players in the world will play the disc. I think the other guy was talking about burning MP3 files onto CD-R - right now it wouldn't work because the VW HU doesn't have an MP3 decoder.


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## Peter (Sep 19, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I've got a headunit that I can hook an iPod into for $300 out the door and in the car.







I'd LIKE to buy one, but not at more than $450-$500 max.
HTH


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## JediCorrado (Apr 18, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Passater)*

i said i was interested and would consider if the price was lower. i think it possible to maybe have a custom or aftermarket solution for less. the thought of it being OEM sounds great, but maybe for just a bit less. 
i mean i only have 5.7GB of mp3's and thats most of my music ripped from CD's







so 20GB is a bit overkill i think.
also will this have some sort of display on the stock headunit so i can know what i'm listening to or will it have "discs" which will just be playlists?


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## Traum (Dec 16, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (JediCorrado)*

I'm very interested in an MP3 solution from VW for our cars, but $750 is just highway robbery. A Creative Nomad MP3 player w/ 6GB's worth of space can be had for US$150 on the streets. Even if you factor in a CD-to-Cassette converter, the whole ordeal should be no more than US$200. I understand that when factory provides something as an option, we as customers are bound to get ripped off. A little markup is certainly reasonable, and a fair markup is expected. But a 300+% markup





















vs what can be purchased from the streets is just outrageous. I'd be surprised to see anyone buy this should VW decide to push ahead with it.
If VW is listening, hear this: Don't take us Vortexers for the idiots that you can sabotage.
-Rick


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## gl916 (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Way too rich for my blood.
02 Jetta GLS 1.8T Monsoon


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## MatchStick (Nov 16, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

For $750 I'd rather get a set of cams - but that's just me...


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## reem01 (Aug 24, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I would love this system, but not at that price point. I think that starting out, they are trying to much at once. That system is nice, but they need to look at something that is under $500 at the most. Maybe over a 10 Gb or smaller system, and I don't need voice activation for menus, I have a finger that can do that faster and easier. I would rather see a less features and a better price. Thanks
2002 Passat GLS
2002 Jetta GLS


[Modified by reem01, 7:43 PM 5-14-2002]


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## krzysztof (Jul 9, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Replying again to updated info:
Very Not Interested.
As an iPod user I have Mac compatibility and FireWire transfer speeds. I am not going to give up either of those things at any price. Sorry. I'll keep using the iPod.
Convince Phatnoise to add a FireWire port and Mac compatibility via iTunes and I would be very interested, even at that (high) price. Or make an analogous deal with Apple for an integrated iPod and let us choose.


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## vmb7 (Mar 4, 2002)

Hey George - Has VW seen what has been going on in the car audio forum, specifically the Monsoon issue at http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=266872 ? I would like to see the mp3 player become an option but I'm not so sure I would trust it. 
Anyways, $750 is a bit steep.



[Modified by vmb7, 2:59 PM 5-14-2002]


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## Swervedriver (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (vmb7)*

I'd have to agree with most of the posts on this thread. I've considered an MP3 jukebox for my car for quite a while and in the last year or so the pricepoint on these are becoming more reasonable. The MSRP at $750 is quite high considering what can be bought as an aftermarket solution. The Neo jukebox for example has very reasonable prices with a player w/80 gig storage still not over the $600 mark. Thats 4 times the storage of what VWoA is pitching for $150 less. 
http://www.mteweb.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MTE&Category_Code=CMP 
I do also understand that this is an OEM solution to having an MP3 library in your car which is a very cool idea on their part to even consider. Being OEM this mp3 player would be better for warranty issues and piece of mind but the price is just a bit too high for me to consider. Loose some of the fluff of voice activation and offer more storage with a lower price in an OE product and I'd surely consider purchasing one.


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## lip (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I have installed in my car a Blaupunkt San Jose Mp41 MP3 player. 
This player also plays normal cds. 
I would like the same features as this stereo, in a OEM style Single DIN unit. I actually miss the look and feel of the stock unit, and the stock unit is less attractive to thieves. 
Ford offers an OEM look MP3 player in their cars. 
I think if VW could get together with an outside supplier and come up with an in car solution that was an option for customers, they might have something. Since there is very little storage, the Single Din option is nice, and this offers ability to add an incar changer, perhaps even an in car MP3 changer. 
A hardrive is nice, but I don't think I could ever pay $750 dollars for a single purpose unit, which is basically a plain old hardrive. I can go to the store and buy a 40gig hardrive for under $100 bucks in many cases. 
Again, in-car hardrives would be nice, but that's getting pretty crazy. 
Most MP3 users can burn cds. I think a system that played MP3's from a Cd would be the best bet for VW and for customers. This would be a cheaper, better selling, higher margin type of deal. In addition, this would be a multi-purpose system, normal CD's and maybe even (if you wanna get crazy) DVDs would play through this system.


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## Scoop (Apr 10, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Way too expensive! $750 for hard drive that's an MP3 player is ridiculous. Why not a HU that plays CDs with MP3s on them as well as audio CDs? Makes sense to me. That way you don't have to connect anything up. Just burn a CD and pop it in.
Can't see this being popular.
Scoop.


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## 174thfwff (May 6, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Scoop)*

No way would I pay 750 bucks for that! WV, you might get your butt kicked with this venture. I will stick to burning cd-r's and putting them in the disk changer thank you very much. What about just making your stock radio capable of playing mp3 songs burnt onto a disk? It would be alot cheeper for you, me, everyone else.
Stay away, you will find that your going to be in the red with this one.


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## hotani (Dec 4, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (krzysztof)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Replying again to updated info:
Very Not Interested.
As an iPod user I have Mac compatibility and FireWire transfer speeds. I am not going to give up either of those things at any price. Sorry. I'll keep using the iPod.
Convince Phatnoise to add a FireWire port and Mac compatibility via iTunes and I would be very interested, even at that (high) price. Or make an analogous deal with Apple for an integrated iPod and let us choose.
[HR][/HR]​exactly. How exactly would it work for us mac users? Now, if there were a detachable hard drive I could carry inside, connect to my mac via firewire, download/sync with iTunes - then I would be more interested.
As it is now, I will just stick with my current solution: mp3/CD player; I create playlists in iTunes and burn them to CDRWs - works like a champ. Aftermarket mp3/CD players are going for about $300 recently.


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## David Cretney (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I was sad to vote no, but I did because $740 is way to much. There are such better universal mp3 options for soo much cheaper.
Refer to round 1.


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## pipes (Apr 7, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (David Cretney)*

for the record ( see sig)... also refer to round 1.
With those prices, I'll go aftermarket and deal with K-wire issues when that comes...


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## kifil032 (Feb 13, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

The asking price of $750 is just too high for a MP3 player. If you wanted to you could go out and buy a very good MP3/WMA/CD-R PLAYING HU for about halk of what VW is suggesting.
I think it's a good idea but the pricing would defiently need to be re-thinked. I currently own a 2002 GLS 4-Motion. I bought a VW in-dash 6 CD Changer which worked okay, but didn't play MP3. Now if VW converted this In-dash 6 Cd changer to play MP3/WMA CD's then they would almost certainly have a winner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## amead (Feb 24, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (kifil032)*

MP3 is a terrible format for audio reproduction. I would never buy a plug in play MP3 hardrive for my VW. As mentioned above, a headunit that plays CD-Audio, CD MP3, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-Audio, DVD-R, and perhaps SACD would be a better solution.


[Modified by amead, 2:47 PM 5-14-2002]


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

98 Jetta GL. Again, I'd much rather see VWoA/AoA OEM the Empeg/RioCar units rather than the Phatbox. The Empeg/RioCar are MUCH higher quality, better performance, better interface, more expandable, faster transfer, greater expandability, better visibility, etc. etc. etc.
Rio/SonicBlue is working with OEMs as we speak. VWoA/AoA shouldn't saddle itself with an inferior product when the competition will be going with the better, more time-tested, and higher-audio-quality solution.
Further, the PhatBox has many user complaints. The Empeg has almost unanimous praise from its users.
Details on the Empeg/RioCar can be found at http://empeg.comms.net and http://www.riocar.org 


[Modified by skritch, 3:01 PM 5-14-2002]


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## kenny301 (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

$750 bucks is too much. chop some off of that and more people would be willing to buy. untill that price drops, im not gonna even think about buying one.


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## Sunil (Sep 24, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I completely agree with several of the above posts. By simply using a headunit that can decode MP3s, I can store 20 GB of music data in a small notebook of CDs.
It would be extremely difficult to navigate 20 GB of music by speech - I'd have to spend a lot of time organizing and maintaining the file system in my car. Not worth it, in my opinion.
Also, CD-Rs are cheap, and renewable. Until this Phatbox technology becomes more portable and ubiquitous, it is going nowhere.
My car:
2000 GTI GLX


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## 2002GTI (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Sunil)*

I might consider it if I had hit the jackpot and I wanted to stay OEM other than that I would prob just make a car PC and have a screen running winamp like that one dude. I mean for about the same price you could have a better setup but thats the price you have to pay if you want to stay OEM


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## certes (Mar 2, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Having a head unit that took mp3cd's would be great. Also having a unit that is not as tempermental, 'chk magazine' says it all.


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## boilerman (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (amead)*

Too much $$$$$$! 
"This box would be rendered unnecessary if VW offered a HU with MP3 capabilities. Then you could just play a 50-cent CD-R chock-full of MP3s. "
I agree with GLS99


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## kmead (Feb 11, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

They must make it Mac OS compatible. The current Phatnoise produce is MSW only.
I currently use a CD based MP3 player. I average about 10 audio CDs per MP3 CD. This is very convenient. 
A harddrive based system that has a 1394 (Firewire) interface to my computer would be excellent. USB 1.1 is way too slow an interface to use and USB 2.0 is not yet available across all new computers, including MSW based systems.
Short of having an MP3 based system, having a line level input into a standard audio system would be an excellent compromise so I could use a iPod or one of the many emerging HD based jukeboxes direct into the system instead of the cheesy cassette adapter that I use now.
Moving audio in cars to the next level would be a great innovation and something I would love to see VW be the leader of. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Turbobug (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (krzysztof)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Replying again to updated info:
Very Not Interested.
As an iPod user I have Mac compatibility and FireWire transfer speeds. I am not going to give up either of those things at any price. Sorry. I'll keep using the iPod.
Convince Phatnoise to add a FireWire port and Mac compatibility via iTunes and I would be very interested, even at that (high) price. Or make an analogous deal with Apple for an integrated iPod and let us choose.[HR][/HR]​Sorry, but Mac users are 10% of computer population. I doubt that is enough to convice them to spend money of R&D.


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## radgolf (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (amead)*

quote:[HR][/HR]MP3 is a terrible format for audio reproduction. I would never buy a plug in play MP3 hardrive for my VW. As mentioned above, a headunit that plays CD-Audio, CD MP3, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-Audio, DVD-R, and perhaps SACD would be a better solution.[HR][/HR]​I can play DVD-Audio and Video!







The purity of 24-bit, 96KHz must be heard to believed -- I have a 5.1 surround sound symphony in my car!
Back to topic: VW should just offer a head unit that can play back CD-R's and CD-RW's filled with either CD-Audio or MP3s and have full ID3 tag/text capability. Problem solved. Or dubbers can go aftermarket as these units only run about $200 in Crutchfield now. $750?!?


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## Cairoprince (Sep 14, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (radgolf)*

That is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much $ geez wtf 700 dollars? I dont care how many GB of storage it has, Im not that eager to have MP3 capability that i'd dish out that kind of cash, cancel ur plans VW its not worth it, 
although.... using those research/development dollars to subsidize the OEM nav system would be a better allocation of resoucrces on your part







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## paul_shark (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Nah - Still costs too much. Much cheaper options are available that require little to near zero skill to install. One example are the products on http://www.carplayer.com I was interested at first but that price isn't justified to me based on the other options I have.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## krzysztof (Jul 9, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Turbobug)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Sorry, but Mac users are 10% of computer population. I doubt that is enough to convice them to spend money of R&D.[HR][/HR]​What percent of the US population drives A4 or B5 VWs and is willing to pay $700 for an OEM stereo upgrade? What percent of that small number are Mac (or Linux) users? None of us knows, but it doesn't matter. Cars are OS-agnostic; MP3s are OS-agnostic; there's no technical reason a car stereo should require Windows to function properly.
I'm not saying VW shouldn't do it, I'm just saying I wouldn't buy one, and the number one reason for me isn't price or quality fears, it's that Windows requirement. VW can choose to limit their audience for this product if they wish; I just want them to know that's what they're doing.
Peace! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Large Marge (Aug 9, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I implore vwoa to simplify things and just produce a head unit that plays back mp3 discs. Much cheaper for them and much cheaper for us. Just about every computer comes with a cd burner these days....oh and make it double din (is it me or are there no double din mp3 players out there?? I found one from Kenwood Australia...but nothing else) so I can have a nice oem look install and I can put this "monsoon" thing in the trash where it belongs - ha..you know they really oughta concentrate on getting a decent sounding head unit FIRST...


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Large Marge)*

Many people are asking for a HU that reads CD-Rs with MP3s. I wonder how many people have used one? I've used several. There are more important considerations beyond, "Does it read MP3 CD-Rs?"
Specifically:
* Does the display have enough resolution to display title/artist/album/time remaining/upcoming MP3s without scrolling all the time or changing the display on one line of text (as is the norm with most MP3-playing HUs)
* Does the unit have noticeable gaps between MP3s (as most MP3-playing HUs do)
* Does the unit have the ability to use playlists (most HUs don't...ever scroll through 100+ MP3s trying to find the one you want?)
Don't get me wrong. MP3s are great. MP3-playing CD HUs are a wonderful idea. But I've yet to see one that has good sound quality, a useful control system, and a worthwhile display. Most if not all only provide for skip-ahead/skip-back track searching, have substandard audio quality (due to the HU, not the MP3 itself), and the display -- in a word -- sucks.


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## Large Marge (Aug 9, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

that seems like a general problem with mp3 players...and youre right I've never used one, but this isn't Kenwood or Sony we're dealing with its vwoa - I wouldnt expect them to come up with some groundbreaking mp3 playing head unit...the fact they're farming this out to Phatnoise suggests that they are looking for a quick way to jump in on mp3 players, not really on improving whats out there. With that said I'd be perfectly happy to deal with passable sound quality (btw the current monsoon is nowhere near passable to me), display and control in favor of the quantity that mp3 players offer. 
My gti is for driving, a nice sound system is gravy...


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Large Marge)*

quote:[HR][/HR]that seems like a general problem with mp3 players...and youre right I've never used one, but this isn't Kenwood or Sony we're dealing with its vwoa - I wouldnt expect them to come up with some groundbreaking mp3 playing head unit...the fact they're farming this out to Phatnoise suggests that they are looking for a quick way to jump in on mp3 players, not really on improving whats out there. With that said I'd be perfectly happy to deal with passable sound quality (btw the current monsoon is nowhere near passable to me), display and control in favor of the quantity that mp3 players offer. 
My gti is for driving, a nice sound system is gravy...







[HR][/HR]​
Well, oddly enough, the Empeg/RioCar has none of those problems, nor does it suffer from the design problems the PhatNoise has. I'm just puzzled as to why VWoA/AoA are talking to the PhatNoise folks rather than SonicBlue.
There's no need to reinvent the wheel, or invent an MP3 player that doesn't yet exist. It does. 
I'm sorry if this comes off as sounding somewhat evangelical, but there are, for all intents and purposes, two hard-drive-based MP3 car audio solutions out there at the moment. And the PhatNoise one is NOT the better solution. Heck, the Empeg/RioCar even works with Macs (the physical interface is Ethernet, as well as serial and USB, and there is a Java-based front-end for it.)
If any of the concerns I listed would bug you, there's not an MP3 player on the market right now that's CD-based that overcomes them all. But there is a hard-drive based one. Which can also be plugged into your home stereo, or speakers at work simply by removing it, plugging it into an AC outlet, and connecting the speakers to the RCA jacks.
They don't have to improve on what's out there. But they'd be foolish to use anything other than the best of what is out there.


----------



## Large Marge (Aug 9, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

I thought they werent making riocars anymore?? 
It seems like such a small thing to add mp3 player capability - everything stays nice and cheap. A huge improvement over regular cd player, but not a huge cost.
I think it would be a tough sell with the rio car cause you cant play cds on it in the dash...phatnoise would prolly allow vw to keep making (and selling) the head units.


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## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I could do this in my car with a laptop for much cheaper plus I would have more features and more space. They have to lower that price if they are going to sell any of these.


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## TDI Vroom (Dec 16, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Large Marge)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I thought they werent making riocars anymore?? [HR][/HR]​Yuppers... although the designers are supposedley working on versions for OEMs these days. I love the empeg/riocar, but don't forget that they cost over $1000 before they end-of-life'd them. In a decent quantity though, I think they could be made affordable. They're great though... Once you use one, you could never go back to a CD-based mp3 player.
quote:[HR][/HR]I think it would be a tough sell with the rio car cause you cant play cds on it in the dash...phatnoise would prolly allow vw to keep making (and selling) the head units.[HR][/HR]​I have my both the empeg/rio car and the cd changer connected with some tricky wiring... but to be honest, the changer doesn't get used anymore, so it will be hitting the classifieds soon.



[Modified by TDI Vroom, 11:35 PM 5-14-2002]


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Large Marge)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I thought they werent making riocars anymore?? 
It seems like such a small thing to add mp3 player capability - everything stays nice and cheap. A huge improvement over regular cd player, but not a huge cost.
I think it would be a tough sell with the rio car cause you cant play cds on it in the dash...phatnoise would prolly allow vw to keep making (and selling) the head units.[HR][/HR]​They're not making RioCars anymore, but SonicBlue is actively pursuing the licensing of the technology to the OEM market. I.e., they've stopped selling to the public, and instead are selling to auto manufacturers.
With the RioCar, it's true the unit itself doesn't play CDs. But the unit itself doesn't have to -- it plays MP3s from a hard drive, and also acts as a tuner (and includes RDS capability -- a huge plus in the European market). All Jettas now sold are dual-DIN, and the RioCar is a single-DIN unit. And it's designed to be hooked up either as the only HU, or as the HU for other accessories such as another single-DIN CD player, or a multidisk CD changer. This would have the added benefit of allowing those people who already own quality aftermarket CD players to continue using them with their new MP3-capable Jettas.
With their Linux-driven 128x32-pixel display (capable of 3 to 4 full lines of text, which includes about 40 different informational and/or animated graphics displays) and intuitive controls, ability to have multiple playlists (including compatibility with standard playlist formats generated by most PC and Mac-based MP3 players), wireless remote control, pattern-matching search for songs, hierarchical organization of MP3 files, WAV, WMA, and upcoming Ogg Vorbis support, and ability to be managed by both Macs and PCs -- not to mention that it can run in your home or office as a standalone MP3 player when you're not in the car -- it just plain makes sense. 
So you wouldn't have a dual-DIN, single-piece unit. I don't consider that a loss. And in all truthfulness, were VWoA/AoA (or VW worldwide) to license the technology, they could easily manufacture a dual-DIN, single-piece unit that used the Empeg for MP3 and tuner, and included a slot-loading CD player as well. Heck, it'd be trivial to throw in:
* ripping from CDs in the HU to the hard drive (imagine -- you buy a CD, hop in your car, listen to it, and as you do, it's saved to the hard drive. Get home, stash the CD, and you've still got the music in the car).
* copying CDs from CD-Rs in the CD player to the hard drive. 
It's trivial because the entire player is open-source, and there's a whole community of active developers for it. Including the original developers, who are still actively maintaining the software/firmware.


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## ASurroca (Sep 3, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (bjettin)*

Either Volkswagen should partner wth SonicBlue and their post-RioCar OEM plan as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, or they should just make an OEM CD changer that can read MP3 files. Isn't this the most simple, obvious solution?
The RioCar, in its last days, coster less than half as much as this PhatBox product. For less than $750, I'll buy a 20GB RioCar unit. It even has a blue backlight


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## TDI Vroom (Dec 16, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

Geez man... do you work for sonicblue?








You're right though... it wouldn't take much to add cd player capability to the rio car. It's pretty much just a space contraint.


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (TDI Vroom)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Geez man... do you work for sonicblue?








You're right though... it wouldn't take much to add cd player capability to the rio car. It's pretty much just a space contraint.[HR][/HR]​Nope. But I do own two Empegs, and have owned and used several CD-based MP3 HUs, and have used the PhatBox. I also did extensive research into the PhatBox before buying my Empegs. I did not like the consumer complaints I saw.
I just don't want to see VWoA use an inferior (and from what I've seen and heard, infuriating) product when there's a much, much better product available.


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## Dr StrangeDub (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

The Neo Jukebox.... Just got them at our stores. FM modulated, so it isn't going to be perfect. But idf we are using MP3's obviously perfection isn't important. 449.99 for up to 800 songs, and playlist capability. I am having it installed in my NB tommarow. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## brownie (Sep 23, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I'm not fond of the harddrive in the car solution. The price of $750 seems to be quite a lot of money too. Maybe not for this Voice Recognition access hard drive but I dont see the sence in putting it in my car. 
A single or changer that decodes MP3's from CD would be much more practical. If a component could be added to the existing double-din in dash that just added the ability to play MP3 cd's, this would be the ideal situation. Sold for around $150, I would buy this stereo upgrade.
Oh, I have a VW GTI 337 on order just in case that info was needed.


[Modified by brownie, 6:34 AM 5-15-2002]


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

$750???? Whoever came up with that price is smoking crack, dude. There's no WAY I'd pay that much for an MP3 player. Considering I can get a high-end CD-player HU for half that price, why would I be so stupd? This would be like paying the full dealer price for a CD changer. 
BTW, a 20Gig MP3 player goes for ~$250. Why should it be an additional $500 to make these adaptable to cars? Absurd. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Dr StrangeDub)*

I said it in the last thread. I've been very interested in this product for the past year but a $1100 to $1200 canadian is just waaaaaaaaayyyy to much. I'll stick with my .50 cent CD's until the price comes down. Don't get me wrong I would love to have it but just not for that type of cash.


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## eddy882 (Jan 16, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (boilerman)*

will this mp3 player will be superior to the current BEST the Kenwood KDC-MP919 ?
could we have some cool graphics on the mp3 deck?


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## Jetta2k (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (boilerman)*

I think it would be great if the unit replaced the indash cd player . . . or make the indash unit MP3 compatible. I do think that the $$ are too expensive. Think of what most could do with $750 of audio money. I'd get an indash 6 disk changer so I can change CD's on the fly. I'd also look at a CD MP3 system.
What they are asking for is only $750 for a drive unit.


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## CTodd (Aug 19, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (lip)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I would like the same features as this stereo, in a OEM style Single DIN unit. I actually miss the look and feel of the stock unit, and the stock unit is less attractive to thieves. 
I think if VW could get together with an outside supplier and come up with an in car solution that was an option for customers, they might have something. Since there is very little storage, the Single Din option is nice, and this offers ability to add an incar changer, perhaps even an in car MP3 changer. 
Again, in-car hardrives would be nice, but that's getting pretty crazy. 
Most MP3 users can burn cds. I think a system that played MP3's from a Cd would be the best bet for VW and for customers. This would be a cheaper, better selling, higher margin type of deal. In addition, this would be a multi-purpose system, normal CD's and maybe even (if you wanna get crazy) DVDs would play through this system. [HR][/HR]​Yeah - What he said. 
I have a Kenwood MP3 Player. Cost $350. Plays regular CD's as well. It works awesome, I play both MP3 and CD. So why would I want to pay twice as much for something I have to put more work into to listen to the music I want to?


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## Frenchtimothy (Nov 6, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (CTodd)*

WAY WAY too friggan expensive...I don't get it, there are so many other solutions out there that are inexpensive. $700 for a Hard Drive and a little bit of code. You're out of your minds. I could go buy a fully blown PC with a P4 1.6Ghz processor and a 40 gig drive plus extras for that! 
Screw the PHAT box idea. Make the HU MP3 compatible. You could incorporate the hardware into the unit for about 12 dollars, sell it for an additional $100 and make a lot of people happy and make some money to boot. Waddya think just because we like to mod our cars we have some endless bank account for you people...christ....


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## GTIfreak (Mar 25, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Frenchtimothy)*

I don't like the box idea at all. Just give us a HU capable of playing CD-Rs. To me, there's no need to have 20GB of MP3s. How the heck will you remember what you have there? 100 MP3s per single CD-R is more than enough.


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## bludden (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (boilerman)*

I have an MP3 compatible CD player in my dash. Offering this type of solution would be best IMHO for the following reasons:
1. No extra hardware; space saving and less to break
2. Owners who can't even spell MP3 don't have to give it a second thought
3. MP3 CDs are cheap and do not require any additional connections to the car, or additional manuals
People have been asking for a in dash CD player for a while now. Just give them one that plays both types of CDs, and offer it as a single option. KISS!


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## addicted2vw (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I would not be very interested in such a device. The ideal MP3 solution would be a standard in-dash CD player or CD changer that supported CDRs and CDRWs with MP3s on them, with text enabled on the display. Most people who listen to MP3s are probably capable of burning their own CDs.

I own a 2000 Golf GLS.


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## BryanH (Apr 21, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (addicted2vw)*

How about making a monsoon HU that you would actually want to listen to!!!! The DD Monsoon sounds like poop!!!!!!!
I cannot wait to get rid of it.


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

See below for car info.
|
|
\/


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## ASurroca (Sep 3, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I just don't want to see VWoA use an inferior (and from what I've seen and heard, infuriating) product when there's a much, much better product available.[HR][/HR]​Exactly... I'd done my research, but by the time I was ready to buy the RioCar, all I found was the "we cancelled the product, and are now working on supplying our technology to car manufacturers" information.


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## jhaines (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (hotani)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Convince Phatnoise to add a FireWire port and Mac compatibility via iTunes and I would be very interested, even at that (high) price. Or make an analogous deal with Apple for an integrated iPod and let us choose.
[HR][/HR]​The PhatBox is NOT Windows only. Mac (inc. iTunes) and Linux users can get support at http://phatbox.sixpak.org


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## achtung (Mar 2, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (jhaines)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
The PhatBox is NOT Windows only. Mac (inc. iTunes) and Linux users can get support at http://phatbox.sixpak.org [HR][/HR]​I don't think grassroots *hacks* should be necessary on a $750 purchase. If it wasn't built for the Mac, then why void the warranty? It's like chipping your car I guess - do it at your own risk.


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## Satchriani (Jul 17, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (kenny301)*

quote:[HR][/HR]$750 bucks is too much. chop some off of that and more people would be willing to buy. untill that price drops, im not gonna even think about buying one.[HR][/HR]​
My thought exactly.

2002 GTI Reflex Silver


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## Irie18Turbo (Sep 20, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Satchriani)*

VWOA. Simple guys... very simple.
Build a head unit that plays mp3 cds and make it XM compatible. 
Where's the rocket science in that. Even if you drop XM support... 
Why do us folks have to risk voiding warranties when you guys can provide a solution.
Forget about the phatbox or whatever you call it.


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## Blender (Sep 25, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I just want a mini jack so I can plug in my own output device.


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## engine101 (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Irie18Turbo)*

As many have said before, and MP3 capable head unit is a much better solution. No extra weight for the car or wiring headaches.


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## vmb7 (Mar 4, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Blender)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I just want a mini jack so I can plug in my own output device.[HR][/HR]​I like that idea! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jhaines (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (engine101)*

I asked my friend about this MP3-CD-in-the-dash idea. He says:
> Why can't they do MP3 CD's? Seems logical to me...
Ahh... several reasons. First, the in-dash stereo's come from the factory, so Germany would have to do this. The Europeans aren't big on MP3s - Kenwood Europe won't sell Music Kegs because they are afraid of their RIAA equivalent. If they did get VW AG to go ahead with this, then they order more from their supplier (looks like Panasonic/Matuchista), who designs the MP3 chip into the head unit, goes through OE testing, and finally gets in the car. This never takes less than 2 years. And it still wouldn't have text - they're too afraid of driver distraction, though the satellite radio people have demanded text, and seem to have gotten some in factory radios.
Now, VWoA can alter their accessories without going through Germany. I've heard the cd changers are bought straight from Panasonic because it's cheaper than getting them from VWAG. Thus, it's really only feasible for them to do an MP3 CD changer or a PhatBox type solution. If a regular VW cd changer is $500, an MP3 cd changer would figure to be about $600, which is right in PhatBox price territory....


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## unixb0y (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (boilerman)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Too much $$$$$$! 
"This box would be rendered unnecessary if VW offered a HU with MP3 capabilities. Then you could just play a 50-cent CD-R chock-full of MP3s. "
I agree with GLS99[HR][/HR]​Well Said. VOA should offer a changer that plays MP3 cds or a HU that plays them.


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## s3GTI (Jan 21, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (unixb0y)*

750 is too much for this thing. i'd rather spend less than that and get some nice hu


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## justin-T (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

following the trend of others, I was enthusiastic before I saw the price. I also would prefer to spend $350 or so on an iPod, have a Firewire connection, great iTunes software to work with and a nice small portable hard-drive for general computer use shifting files between work and home.
Don't think there will be too many people interested in the system features at that price... we would need phatter wallets...


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (justin-T)*

Don't forget that the iPod and iTunes don't work with Windows (or any flavor of Unix or Linux) out-of-the-box. I've got a 10GB iPod (that's $499, btw, not $350), and getting it to work with a Windows PC required:
* Purchase of an _active_ FireWire PCI card (the passive ports found on most notebooks these days do NOT work properly with the iPod)
* Purchase of a $50 software program called MacDrive to allow the iPod to be read/written to,
* Installation of a 3rd-party freeware program called EphPod.
(and, of course, purchase of $150 Bang-Olufsen over-the-ear headphones.







)

Add to that the transfer of sound from a jeadphone jack to a HU, through an amp, and then to the speakers, you're looking at some serious audio degredation (because the cord from the jack to the HU will be somewhat long, and the cabin of an automobile is NOT an EM-free zone. it's quite EM-noisy, and most 1/8" jack cables are not shielded well, or at all).
I love the iPod. As a pocketable MP3 solution. I don't see it as a good auto solution. The right tool for the right job: An iPod in your pocket, a HTPC or some other device (e.g., SliMP3) for home stereo MP3 playback from a central server, and an Empeg in the car. (Yes, I do all of these).


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## ReflexSilver (May 7, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (justin-T)*

Like a few of you, I like the idea of being able to decode mp3 from the cd changer itself...
I think what vw should do to cut down costs, is to offer some sort of plug-in decoder that plugs into the changer, decodes and outputs to the headunit. that way, the ones that want it, can pay a reasonable price of sayyyy $75 for a decoder instead of $750... there are plenty of players out there for around that price... the most expensive part of any mp3 player is the memory and i think we can use the changer for that part. btw... I want a free decoder if vw uses this... haha


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## nickinboston (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

i got this.....
http://www.carsound.com/reviews/hd_units/RFX9000.html








It was a lot cheaper than $750 and plays regular cds and mp3 cds....i love it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## what (Jun 24, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Passater)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I've got a headunit that I can hook an iPod into for $300 out the door and in the car.







I'd LIKE to buy one, but not at more than $450-$500 max.

HTH







[HR][/HR]​That's what Im talking about. Plus, with the iPod you can change your collection in less then 10 minutes. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## eunos94 (Mar 17, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Toooooooooo much money!


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## noahlh (Jul 9, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Not a chance.
I wouldn't even buy it if it were cheaper -- the stock VW head unit was the FIRST thing to go on my car, and as soon as I installed my Blaupunkt Alaska II I was in an _entirely_ new world of sound. (i sound like a stereo ad now). 
But seriously -- I didn't have to change anything else -- same speakers, amp, etc. The new HU makes such an amazing difference I'm frankly shocked that VW allows such a crappy stock unit to be installed with their cars.....so no, I'd definitelty not buy an MP3 add-in for the stock system.
--noah


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## justin-T (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...from a jeadphone jack to a HU, through an amp, and then to the speakers, you're looking at some serious audio degredation... [HR][/HR]​I think you're exagerating a little, since all sound goes "thru an amp then to the speakers", the only possible iPod-induced source of loss is the iPod to HU connection. Which 1/8" cable are you referring to, are you using the blitzsafe adapter that hooks into the CD changer input? Seems to me that should work at least as well as the CD changer does...


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## 1fastdub (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

If i want an mp3 player in my car i think that i would just get a head unit that could read mp3's instead of mounting something in my trunk(there too big and bulky.)


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## ru1thirst (Mar 6, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

Archos portable 20gb player/recorder and its pc compat. Anybody try this hooked up to a stock HU. Or are there inputs on the stock HU for a portable? 
Forgot to mention, the Archos 20gb is only $300


[Modified by ru1thirst, 9:21 AM 5-16-2002]


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Not at all interested. $750 is _wa-aaay_ too much coin for something that sounds worse than CDs!!! -Half of the MP3s I hear sound like crizznap!
Adding MP3 capability to a CD player is one thing that wouldn't cost half as much, and would add value, but the Phatbox type solution always seemed dreadful to me.


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## lip (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Turbobug)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Sorry, but Mac users are 10% of computer population. I doubt that is enough to convice them to spend money of R&D.-turbobug[HR][/HR]​Try 4%-
Apple makes some of the best looking products I have ever seen. They are also now using Nvidia products in their systems. The systems are even semi-decent in an office enviroment, now that Office is available for the "OS". 
But, why do Mac users always want companies to go broke making products for something very few people can afford to buy?
The Best part of the latest version of the Mac OS, it's Unix based. The best part of the Mac OS in general. It offers solid windows emulation support in conjunction with Virtual PC-








Think of it like this, Mac users gain interoperational features that are not available in Windows. 
LIp


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (justin-T)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...from a jeadphone jack to a HU, through an amp, and then to the speakers, you're looking at some serious audio degredation... 
I think you're exagerating a little, since all sound goes "thru an amp then to the speakers", the only possible iPod-induced source of loss is the iPod to HU connection. Which 1/8" cable are you referring to, are you using the blitzsafe adapter that hooks into the CD changer input? Seems to me that should work at least as well as the CD changer does...[HR][/HR]​True, all sounds goes "thru an amp then to the speakers". However, it does not typically also go through another, non-preamp component before getting there. Any time you introduce a component in-line, you're risking sound degredation. You can control the quality of the MP3s you record, and you can assure yourself of the quality of output for a specific device -- e.g., an iPod. When you take that device and then use the headphone output as input to some other device -- for example, the AUX input on the front faceplate of many HUs these days -- the sound is degraded by:
* The quality and length of run of the cable and connectors used to connect the iPod to the HU (and generally, this is a 1/8" male jack, a 2-6' run of unshielded or minimally-shielded dual copper stranded coax, and a 1/8" male jack on the other end. Signal attenuation is a concern, as is EM interference due to the high EM emission present in an auto cab coupled with the use of unshielded or poorly-shielded cabling.
* The quality of processing between the AUX and the output of the HU, leading to the amp and/or preamp, and finally to the speakers. Those AUX jacks don't just electrically connect to the output on the back of the HU. They pass through the circuitry in the HU, and typically through one or more sets of logic which perform some form of processing on the signal, whether it's A/D-D/A conversion, pre-amp processing, equalizing, balancing, or what-have-you. Something that's also already been done prior to the sound leaving the original device. In other words, it's an unnecessary additional stage of processing, which can degrade the signal. (this is worsened if you use a cassette or CD adapter, or one of those short-range RF transmitters, because you're also introducing the circuitry designed for that particular medium on the HU, and the loss of signal between the original device and whatever pickup is used on the HU to receive the signal from the adapter).
If people are going to pick nits over the audio degredation in step-down from 256kbps, 192kbps, and 128kbps encoding, they should be willing to consider the much more real (and more easily discernable) degredation present when connecting a portable device to a HU.
All of these problems have been present since people were capable of connecting portable devices to car HUs -- cassette players, portable CD players, portable MD players, and now MP3 players. The difference is that only recently (with the advent of in-dash CD, MP3, and MD HUs) was it possible to compare the audio quality between "direct-play" devices and portables in an automobile. Particularly when you know that a portable device has a better DAC and soundstage reproduction than the HU, and can see the effects of introducing the HU in-line with the higher-quality device.

But I imagine those people complaining about the quality of MP3s are downloading them from questionable sources, rather than controlling the quality by recording their own.


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## rocketweb (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

way too much!


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## red5sp1.8T (May 1, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

Interesting subject. I am not personaally interested in an MP3 player, let alone one that costs over $700! However, even I could make use of a CD player that could handle MP3 CDs. This seems like a logical, cost-effective solution. Besides, how do you manage 20 gigs worth of music while you're driving?!
Hope this hasn't already been posted, but Blaupunkt has some interesting solutions. In addition to head units that can read MP3 CDs, they make an MP3 payer that can connect to several of their head units. It's pricey ($849) and little memory (1G or 18 hours) but it's extremely small and could possibly be mounted in the dash. It works with a USB device and a tiny IBM memory card. The great thing about the blaupunkt products is you get high fidelity and head units that mate well with the VW dash. Some Blaupunkt units use the same blue backlighting that VW uses so it gives you that factory look.
Here's the link: http://www.blaupunktusa.com/receivers/receivers_index.html


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## timmerweb (Jun 5, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

I'd love to see this or a similar MP3 solution offered. Hard-drive MP3 devices are by far the best way to do MP3s in my opinion, and Phatnoise's solution looks very clean. Biggest concern is price, $750 (that's USD I presume) is really steep considering what's actually involved. $500 USD would be a more reasonable price, which is close to the price of a decent HD-based portable, which I wouldn't have to buy if VW offered something like this.

-Tim


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## justin-T (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

OK, you have a point, I bow to superior knowledge








Do you know whether the Blitzsafe adaptor is shielded enough to avoid the interference you describe? Also, have you actually tried the iPod to see how it does despite these problems? For me, I don't expect high fidelity sound in my car anyway, so I think even if it doesn't match the sound of a CD playing directly from the HU (or an MP3 on a CD), its likely to be good enough for most people and much more convenient than having to cart dozens of CD's every time I take a trip, not to mention using it to transport files between work and home.


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## VancouverA4 (Dec 30, 2000)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (micjohns)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I might consider it If I could still use my cd-changer(which I doubt). I would probably be willing to pay up to 450 max for it though.[HR][/HR]​Ditto. I already paid for a CD changer, so I want to be able to still use it, but also have a Phatnoise system. 
This makes more sense in new cars when people haven't already upgraded their stereos.
If I bought a new Audi, then I'd want an MP3 headunit AND the Phatbox system.


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## skritch (May 14, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (justin-T)*

quote:[HR][/HR]OK, you have a point, I bow to superior knowledge








Do you know whether the Blitzsafe adaptor is shielded enough to avoid the interference you describe? Also, have you actually tried the iPod to see how it does despite these problems? For me, I don't expect high fidelity sound in my car anyway, so I think even if it doesn't match the sound of a CD playing directly from the HU (or an MP3 on a CD), its likely to be good enough for most people and much more convenient than having to cart dozens of CD's every time I take a trip, not to mention using it to transport files between work and home.[HR][/HR]​I've not used the Blitzsafe adapter, but I've looked at one. The RCA connectors on there are short, so you'd still have to run a length of cable from there to the iPod. The Blitzsafe adapter's also expensive, particularly when you consider there's another adapter out there ( http://www.rcainput.com ) that does exactly the same thing (I discovered this when trying to figure out how to connect my wife's Empeg to her new 2002 Golf with the double-DIN HU and Monsoon system).
I have used the iPod in the car, as has the friend of mine that got me hooked on the iPod. Me in my Jetta, him in his Mercedes SL450. The quality is ok. The interface isn't. The iPod was designed to be held and looked at while operating, and this isn't conducive to driving.
The Empeg, on the other hand, was designed specifically to allow navigation of tens of gigs of MP3s while driving.








That said, use what works best for you. Personally, I'd rather not have an iPod tethered to my HU via an unshielded cable and sliding around in the car, particularly given how easily the iPod scratches. Nor would I want to have to stare at the poor-contrast screen (particularly at night) to navigate my files. But that's just me.


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## GermanMan (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (boilerman)*

Who would buy it.
MP3 is a great format - especially for cars. I don't know what the fella that said it was a bad audio format was smoking. You are listening to music INSIDE YOUR CAR. You have wind noise, road noise, engine noise, car acoustics, change and other crap rattling around. Its not for home theater use, but for cars - it is the way to go.
WHY the #)(*$& is it not possible to build a changer that plays MP3's as well as CD Audios? Add the circuitry inside the changer to have it do the conversion there so it will work with the std head unit.
Installed audio is the biggest rip-off from car makers. They charge you 2x to 3x more for a unit compared with the price for a good unit in the aftermarket that would probably do more. Other than thief deterrent (who would steal a VW unit after all), whats the gain. Just try getting a car that doesn't have a radio in from the factory. Hell, if VW wants to impress me, make the friggen head units a DEALER INSTALLED option so we can opt to NOT get on and save the friggen $350+ dollars we are forced to pay for it.
And I'll agree that the best solution is a head unit that can be software controlled so it can be modified to work with new hardware - maybe display song titles, be coded to controll more devices (if the makers would get their asses organized and agree on a single standard for communication between car audio components ). It is just stupid that almost any change requires you to pull and pitch your existing units or you have to externally wire the thing in via the cassete adapter. Why not at least an aux-line-in on the back?
A single CDr will give you 7hrs of MP3 playback at very good quality, more than that if you reduce the bandwith. So even a single disc or 3 disc changer built into the head unit would be a step in the right direction.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (GermanMan)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I don't know what the fella that said it was a bad audio format was smoking.[HR][/HR]​You don't have to be smoking anything...
quote:[HR][/HR]You have wind noise, road noise, engine noise, car acoustics, change and other crap rattling around.[HR][/HR]​[Doctor Evil Voice] ...Riiii-iiight... [/Doctor Evil Voice] then it won't matter if we all go back to AM radio I suppose?
quote:[HR][/HR]WHY the #)(*$& is it not possible to build a changer that plays MP3's as well as CD Audios? Add the circuitry inside the changer to have it do the conversion there so it will work with the std head unit.[HR][/HR]​ Because the disc access rates & control systems are completely incompatible.


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## justin-T (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (skritch)*

quote:[HR][/HR] ... I have used the iPod in the car, as has the friend of mine that got me hooked on the iPod. Me in my Jetta, him in his Mercedes SL450. The quality is ok. The interface isn't. The iPod was designed to be held and looked at while operating, and this isn't conducive to driving.
The Empeg, on the other hand, was designed specifically to allow navigation of tens of gigs of MP3s while driving.








That said, use what works best for you. Personally, I'd rather not have an iPod tethered to my HU via an unshielded cable and sliding around in the car, particularly given how easily the iPod scratches. Nor would I want to have to stare at the poor-contrast screen (particularly at night) to navigate my files. But that's just me.[HR][/HR]​There are little $10 doodads you can use to provide an iPod holder on the dash somewhere so it doesn't slide, and unless any system is voice-activated you have to look at some kind of screen to search thru files. The way I'd use it would be to preprogram a few CD's worth before starting to drive. Don't know how you navigate the empeg, but its discontinued...
As you say, each to his own... but, if we get the "VW-phat" solution offered at $700-$800 I'll be buying a 5GB iPod for $350 (educ. discount







) and the cables/holder etc for another $100 and have a much smaller (pack of cards), 10x quicker (FireWire) more adaptable (doubles as standard hard-drive) system for about half the price. I'll also gain some street-cred in the eyes of the students I teach


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## aenea (Feb 18, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details ([email protected])*

No way I would pay $750 to connect anything to the horrible double-din HU in my car. If I'm going to spend that much money, I can get a nice HU that fades properly, plays MP3's on CD and can have an iPod plugged into it.
2002 Passat


[Modified by aenea, 1:49 AM 5-22-2002]


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## theguero (Aug 10, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (aenea)*

All you guys that are raving about a portable MP3 player in the car.... Have you ever tried it?
*IT SUCKS!!!!*
I bought a Nomad Jukebox almost 2 years ago when they came out. I love the Nomad. But in the car it is not the greatest thing. First it is very hard to control. Small display and small buttons. Second - it looks messy. 
I have a Phatbox from Phatnoise in my car. It has 30 GB of storage and ALL my music is in it. It is user friendly and sounds MUCH better than a portable. Of course, that is due to the 24 bit D/A converter. 
With VW dealers charging between $500 and $700 for a CD changer, I will take a Phatbox for $50 more....








P.S. The iPod is nice, but too expensive for a 5 GB portable. I would take a Nomad any day over it. The Nomad does twice as much for half the price. The new Nomad Jukebox 3 is even better with it's 98db S/N playback.


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## vuu16v (Jul 18, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (theguero)*

Why not just burn some discs for about 22 cents a pop and call it a day. Man George, you must have a serious "jones" for Mp3's or something. I'd much rather VW concentrate on making their cars "driver's cars" again than another "techno-gadget" car marque. My factory 6-disc changer plays all the burnt Mp3's I want.







I'd *GLADLY* pay an extra 750 denero for a serious lightweight version of the GTI.


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## gunf1ghter (Jan 24, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Passater)*

As someone who has owned and used the Phatbox solution in my Audi A4 for the past 7 months (right after the limited edition silver unit became available) I think that I can pump my two cents in to this discussion.
1. Cost. As far as the cost goes, there are certainly going to be cheaper alternatives out there. Gutting your car stereo might be a cheaper alternative. Taking a portable unit into the car and running an adapter will probably be cheaper. For me, the ability to have ALL of the music that I own in one place all the time without having to carry books full of CD's (even a CD-R is only going to hold about 70-80 high quality VBR MP3 files) or re-load a small limited player was worth it. For may of us Audi folks, the thought of gutting the dash to put in an aftermarket deck just doesn't make sense.
2. Sound quality. The sound quality of the Phatbox is absolutely top notch. They have an excellent D/A stage and I have never had a problem with the sound quality... 
3. Navigation. This is one of the things that is extremely cool about the Phatbox. The voice navigation system makes it easy to pick tunes while driving around. When you copy your music to the cartridge it generates voice prompts for all your playlists, albums, artists and genres. Navigation is therefore very easy. There is also an excellent "random all" mode that will randomize everything on the cart (in my case about 2000 tracks). If I then here something cool I can hit a button to listen to that album or all tracks by that artist.
I'm not here to try to sell you guys on the Phatbox. I am just a very satisfied customer and thought that I would provide some input from someone who actually owns the Phatbox (and I payed a hell of a lot more than $750 for mine, btw).
-Gun.


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## Geijn (Feb 5, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (gunf1ghter)*

Clarion makes the Mk4 VW head units.
Clarion makes MP3 capable head units.
I don't see a problem here. They can just make a VW-like face for the exisiting Clairion unit and throw that in there.
I could not care LESS about having a stupid "phatbox" for $700. ESPECIALLY if it is not Mac compatible. Fvck that. Give us an MP3 head unit standard.
Then you can turn you attention back to the rickety seat frames and faulty window regulators


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## gunf1ghter (Jan 24, 2001)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (Geijn)*

That's great... but some folks do not have the patience to burn their entire MP3 collection to as many as 50 seperate CD's (even if you are fitting 100 songs per CD, which is unlikely if you want high quality CBR or VBR).... the argument that you use is the same one that says it makes more sense to buy a $100 iRiver SlimX CD player than a $300 hard drive based unit.... more people seem to be going the hard drive route.


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## marled (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: POLL for VWoA & A0A: PhatBox MP3 Solution Round 2 -- More Details (gunf1ghter)*

Pay me $750 and i'll burn all your mp3's to cd for the next 3 years (or until your lease ends!


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