# 1.8l 8v Underdrive Pulley ??



## Q Pts C (Nov 3, 2008)

Does anyone know where I could find an under drive pulley for my 1.8l 8v (JH) 

Thanks


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## ITB45 (Feb 27, 2008)

http://www.lellaautosport.com/8v-and-16v-Underdrive-Pulley_p_23.html


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

“Free up some horsepower . . . With an underdrive pulley, your alternator and water pump will steal less horsepower from your engine . . . will increase the power throughout the entire power band, not just at the top end like like most engine modifications do“. Yes I know some people are ate up with the idea of saving or increasing every single horsepower they can. For those people, true racers I would expect or hope, there are better ways (electric water pump or alternator cut-outs for starts). For the normal street person just what exactly are you gaining and at what cost? 3hp maybe at best and that at an engine speed you only see, again at best, 5% of your driving time. What could you possibly lose? In warm/hot weather the engine could overheat or get very hot due to water pump speed reduction, is that possiblilty worth the added power? Alternator power consumption is based on just how many amps you are drawing. A common rule of thumb is that an alternator requires 1hp for every 25amps. Except at night and/or during the winter most cars do not use that much or maybe around that much (you 300+ watt stereo folks have enough problems and should avoid these pullies altogether). A reduction in alternator speed could cause some idle and low engine speed electrical draw, or better generation issues. Dim lights or engine management problems or battery damage over time could be some, again for what? And just where that power saving happens is total sales pitch junk. An engine is not required to make all that much power unless under full throttle or high speed driving, not your normal 60mph or 70mph stuff. At normal speeds the water pump and alternator (if not under a serious draw situation) don’t eat up much power at all, less than 1hp for sure I would guess. So really, you will still see the minor benefit at top end speeds also, like it should be really. 

“Weighing in at only 6oz, half the weight of the stock pulley, you will also gain power by reducing the rotating mass of your engine. Keeping in mind the crankshaft turns two times for every time the camshaft does, this pulley is equivalent to saving 12oz at the camshaft.” 

This quote from the ad above just baffles me. I could find no calculation formula or logic to back-up what the ad says. I had to search hard for a while just for myself because the relation between the two as stated in the ad just don’t make any sense. Just how is saving a tiny tiny (we’re talking really tiny here) bit of rotational mass with a pulley bolted to the crankshaft going to effect the weight of the camshaft? Maybe someone who bought one and uses it can explain. I would bet that removing the spare tire and jack on race day or all the junk most people carry around in their car or only filling the tank half way will gain more and produce better results then this gimick. 

Then there is the normal maintinance issues it brings with it as pictured. Is there a TDC mark on it? If so is there a dimple behind it to insure the pulley is installed in the correct position using the crank gear bump? If not what are you supposed to do, drill/grind a dimple for the locator bump or grind down the crankshaft belt gear so the pulley fits flush? Maybe make your own TDC mark and method to locate the pulley? Can’t really comment as it does not say or show, but makes one think. Now if it is for show, they look better by far then a half rusted black painted steel pulley.


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## Lella Autosport (Dec 12, 2010)

WaterWheels, 

First you need to understand something, the underdrive pulley and everything else we sell is designed and intended for racing. 



WaterWheels said:


> idea of saving or increasing every single horsepower they can. For those people, true racers I would expect or hope, there are better ways


 First of all, many racing classes have strict rules on what can and cannot be done to a car, and that was the exact reason for designing this pulley. Most classes do not allow the use of alternate water pumps, or removal of the alternator, so the best thing you can do is slow them down so they use less power. We came up with the idea of the pulley after we kept loosing speed to other cars at the end of a long straight, we were looking for every little thing that could add power. Do several small things to an an engine and it will add up to descent power. Do you really think an exhaust, intake, or cam all add 10hp each to a car? No, but do all of them and they will make a difference, especially on an 8v where you are starting with very little hp, compared to a turbo or even a 16v. 



WaterWheels said:


> Just how is saving a tiny tiny (we’re talking really tiny here) bit of rotational mass with a pulley bolted to the crankshaft going to effect the weight of the camshaft?


 Don't think you seem to understand. Its referring to people who buy a lightweight cam gears or intermediate shaft gears. If you can save weight at the crankshaft, its equivalent to saving twice the weight at the camshaft, because the crank turns twice for every time the cam turns once. (not the actual cam, its referring to the top half of the engine.) Saving 6oz is tiny? then why do people spend several hundreds of dollars changing to titanium valve retainers, and lightweight valves? you think when your engine is turning at 6000rpm 6oz won't make a difference? 



WaterWheels said:


> If so is there a dimple behind it to insure the pulley is installed in the correct position using the crank gear bump? If not what are you supposed to do, drill/grind a dimple for the locator bump or grind down the crankshaft belt gear so the pulley fits flush?


 How about before judging our products and speculating, you take a look for yourself or atleast ask. They do have a TDC mark and they do have a notch on the back, to allow for the dimple in the crankshaft gear. 



WaterWheels said:


> Now if it is for show, they look better by far then a half rusted black painted steel pulley.


 No they are not for show, they are designed for race cars. The reason for being anodized, is not to make them look pretty. The anodizing protects the aluminum from wearing over time from the constant rubbing of the belt.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

All I see from that response you made is a person with maybe a hurt ego worried about a few sales to people who really don’t need your product in the first place. Come on now, anyone who might be looking for something like that would not need a vauge hype sales pitch to want to buy one, only the un-educated would bite for such an ad, right? But it’s fine, you make them for race cars, which seems to be the jist of your response. But the sales pitch is not directed really towards racers from what I saw and does not inform the non-racers to “save your money” either. Do you have to or are you required to be nice and tell the whole truth? No, there is not law that says advertisements can’t bend the truth or be vauge, companies do it all the time. You’re trying to make a buck just like all the other companies, right? I understand the “buyer beware” bit, I’ve wasted plenty of my hard earned cash on things I was told I had to have or would make things better, faster and able to leap tall building in a single bound. But I wised up and started doing my homework, un-like at school I might add, and doubted everything I read until I could see for my self if it really did as claimed. And most companies who make claims which are either false or so-so true rely on the fact that it is more trouble to return the product or take the company to court then to just eat the loss. For my part here I am doing nothing but trying to help keep some young person from wasting their money like I did to often. Not bad mouth your company, which I did not do, or the product, which I really did not do either. 

So, this brings us to the meat of the problem we have as I see it. You, or your company as I don’t know if you own it or are just a pawn in it, have made some claims in an attempt to sell something. I, on the other hand, have stated on this forum that the claims are more or less a smoke screen or hyped up version of the facts and some don’t even make any sense (call it wrong or false or made up if you like). As a response to my post all you did really was state you make all your products for racing. But what you have not done is respond to any of the figures, suggestions or comments I made, just guess work at this point but exact data can be calculated if need be. Like exactly how much of a gain does one really get, are there any possible down sides to using the product, woud the gains from things I said (spare tire and such) really be more than using your product? Just why is it you don’t want to quote and discuss these parts but only zoom in on the “made them for race cars” bit? Also, “We came up with the idea of the pulley after we kept loosing speed to other cars at the end of a long straight, we were looking for every little thing that could add power.” But you do want as many people out there to buy it, racer or not, is that not correct? And just to keep things straight, you didn’t come up with the idea you just made them for VW engines, the idea is as old as racing and underdrive pullies have been made for many engines over the years. 



> “Don't think you seem to understand. Its referring to people who buy a lightweight cam gears or intermediate shaft gears. If you can save weight at the crankshaft, its equivalent to saving twice the weight at the camshaft, because the crank turns twice for every time the cam turns once. (not the actual cam, its referring to the top half of the engine.) Saving 6oz is tiny? then why do people spend several hundreds of dollars changing to titanium valve retainers, and lightweight valves? you think when your engine is turning at 6000rpm 6oz won't make a difference?”


 Where in the ad linked above, and in my quoted of it, does it say anything about it “referring to people who buy a lightweight cam gears or intermediate shaft gears.”? Just how, and please show the calculation you’re using or what laws of physics or at least something, does the following exactly work, “If you can save weight at the crankshaft, its equivalent to saving twice the weight at the camshaft, because the crank turns twice for every time the cam turns once. (not the actual cam, its referring to the top half of the engine.”? I just have to see and proof this for myself. And when calculating rotating mass as it would be done for this product, yes 6OZ is tiny. Valve spring retainers and valves do not rotate and the reasons for using lighter versions of them are completely different, but hey racers know this already. Tell me, just exactly what is the difference this 6OZ makes at 6000RPM as you state anyway? 

And this was in the ad which I let slide before, “you will also gain power by reducing the rotating mass of your engine” is flat out false. You can not gain horsepower, not a single pony, purely from reducing any weight in the engine. If you reduce the weight of your flywheel does your engine gain any power? If you use lighter connecting rods or pistons does your engine make more power? By your logic, making a motor simply out of 100% aluminum would make more power than, all things being equal, the exact same motor out of steel. This is totally un-true. Lighter components give an engine the ability to make more power or the weight reduction can make the car “act” like you have increasethe power power. They do not however direclty cause any gain in power. 

If you wanted to call my first post here off-key in some way or wrong or untrue, that's fine but at least provide some facts or data to show I was wrong. If you just wanted to say "we sell race parts", also fine, you could have skipped all the quotes and responses and just said it. And if you really don't know as you just sell the stuff, also fine, just don't say anything then.


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## Lella Autosport (Dec 12, 2010)

I was going to respond to your idiotic comments, then I saw some of your other posts on vortex and realized its a waste of time. You are a genius and everybody else knows nothing, we are all dumb and striving to be like you. 

P.S. I just voted for you to win the Nobel Prize


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

im not trying to stir the pot, but i want to know why 6oz at the crank is like 12 oz at the cam? 

how do you come to that conclusion? 

again, i just want to be educated, not stir the pot.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Lella Autosport said:


> I was going to respond to your idiotic comments, then I saw some of your other posts on vortex and realized its a waste of time. You are a genius and everybody else knows nothing, we are all dumb and striving to be like you.
> 
> P.S. I just voted for you to win the Nobel Prize


 Pardon me but I believe you *DID* just make a response, did you not? I can't say it was a very good or intellegent one, but it was a response so that first sentense is null and void. As for the second one, I really can't say. First I don't know if anybody else is striving to be like me or not, but I would hope there are better roll models out there than me. As for me being a genius in your opinion, I don't know that either. What is the bar one has to reach to be at that level, my tested avarage IQ is 147, is that genius? I kind of doubt it but that would be cool, no? 

There are different Nobel Prizes, which one do you have a vote on? I could use the money if you do have any say. 

In any case, now there are two people who would like some questions answered, are you game?


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## Lella Autosport (Dec 12, 2010)

Glegor said:


> im not trying to stir the pot, but i want to know why 6oz at the crank is like 12 oz at the cam?
> 
> how do you come to that conclusion?
> 
> again, i just want to be educated, not stir the pot.


 the crankshaft turns twice for every time the camshaft turns once correct? 

one full rotation of the engine, is when the camshaft makes one full revolution(360*), so each time the camshaft makes one full revolution the crankshaft makes two revolutions. Since the pulley is attached to the crankshaft it is making two revolutions. 

Lets say you use a lightweight cam gear that is 6oz lighter than stock. For each revolution of the engine you have saved 6oz of rotating mass correct? 
Then instead you put on this under drive pulley, that is also 6oz lighter. Now for each time the camshaft turns once the pulley is turning twice. So for each revolution of the engine you have saved 12oz correct? 

let me know if you understand, or if I can try and reexplain it. 

The main advantage of the under drive, pulley is that it under drives the water pump and alternator. The weight saving is just an added bonus. So if someone is going to buy a lightweight cam or IM shaft pulley, they are better off spending their money on the under drive pulley since it will save the same weight and under drive the accessories.


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## Roc'N'Green (Apr 1, 2010)

Unorthodox use to make these, maybe they still do I just can't seem to find them. 

I have never used the under drive pulley setup but I understand the theory behind it. 

Waterwheels... 

I am trying to understand your point regarding the possible loss of cooling and power from the alternator. 

So if I were to use a heavier pulley could my alternator produce more power? My engine temperatures run cooler? 

From my understanding one rotation is one rotation, so why does adding or subtracting mass change that? 

Perhaps Lella Autosports could shine some light on this as well. 

I see the point of these, its no different from a light weight flywheel, it will allow the motor to rev faster which is what we all enjoy so much. 

As for subtracting from the rotating mass. Its no different than a knife edged crankshaft or engine girdle which keep the weight the oil adds off the crankshaft.... 

Speaking of crankshafts, Lella I see you guys have knife edged shafts for the 1.8l, if I were to send you my 2.0l crankshaft could you guys do the same process? My local machinist doesn't know how much to take off so balancing is the best he could do for me.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Roc'N'Green said:


> Waterwheels...
> 
> I am trying to understand your point regarding the possible loss of cooling and power from the alternator.
> 
> ...


 I am not completely sure if you wrote this wrong or don’t understand things correctly or what? By reading your question to me it sounds like “weight” and “diameter” are being mixed up in your situation. What changes things as far as the alternator and water pump are concerned if the reduced diameter of the pulley, not its reduced weight. If both pulleys were the same diameter then one turn of the crank would equal one turn of the alt./water pump. The factory set up is that the crankshaft pulley is larger than the other two (water pump pulleys are sometime about the same size) so one crankshaft turn equals more than one turn of the others. Think of it in terms of a bicycle gear set, larger gear turns smaller gear so bicycle moves faster. Now reduce the larger gear and the bicycle goes slower with the same amount of rotations. That means that at idle or slow driving speeds your water pump and alternator will be turning slower than before, hense the possible reduction of electrical current and flow of coolant. As I pointed out when I first stated this, it will be more critical on hot days or when there is a large current draw on the alternator. 
I hope that cleared up or at least helped to clear up the part you addressed to me. 

The rest of your post and the response to Glegor above you will have to discuss with Lella Autosport yourself. I've asked for details and and facts but they will not provide me with any real answers.


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## Lella Autosport (Dec 12, 2010)

Roc'N'Green said:


> From my understanding one rotation is one rotation, so why does adding or subtracting mass change that?
> 
> Perhaps Lella Autosports could shine some light on this as well.
> 
> ...


 Subtracting mass, is exactly like you say, same thing as saving it from the clutch, flywheel, crank, etc. Less mass =the engine has to use less energy to rotate that mass, so it has more energy to put to the wheels. 

As for the cooling/charging. 
With a smaller pulley the circumference is smaller. Lets say the stock pulley has a circumference of 10". For each revolution the belt will move 10". With a smaller pulley, the diameter will be smaller, lets say 8", then for each revolution the belt will move 8". Compared to stock, the belt will move 2" less, so then the water pump and alternator will turn less. With them turning less, they put less resistance on the engine, thus requiring less energy from the engine. This is how the pulley adds power, or shall we say uses less power, resulting in more power being put to the wheels. 

As far as the charging/cooling it depends. The charging will depend on how many accessories you have running. We have had several people use them on their street cars and not one has ever complained of having charging issues. 
For the cooling, their are alot more factors. Although the water pump will be turning slower, it doesn't mean your cooling will be worse. At higher RPM's you will actually get better cooling. When the water pump is turning too fast at high RPMS, it causes an area of low pressure at the pump which results in cavitation. Picture a boat propeller, you know how it causes air bubbles in the water, this is cavitation. When cavitation occurs in your cooling system, you now have air/bubbles mixing with your coolant, this decreases the effectiveness of the cooling as the coolant/air/bubbles go through your radiator, resulting in higher temps. 
Second, when the water pump is turning faster, the flow of your coolant is now moving faster. When the coolant is moving too fast, as it goes through the radiator, it does not stay in the radiator long enough for it too cool sufficiently, this will also result in higher temps. 
At lower RPM's you will not have the above problems, since they are associated with high rpms. Will you have cooling problems at lows speeds? Technically their is the possibility, but nobody has ever complained they are having cooling issues. If your cooling system is currently not at its best, we definitely do not recommend one, if your cooling system is operating fine you won't have any problems. 

As you mentioned, unorthodox makes similar pulleys for 100's of cars and 1,000's of people are using them everyday on street cars. 



Roc'N'Green said:


> Speaking of crankshafts, Lella I see you guys have knife edged shafts for the 1.8l, if I were to send you my 2.0l crankshaft could you guys do the same process? My local machinist doesn't know how much to take off so balancing is the best he could do for me.


 Sure, that is no problem, we can also do the 2.0l crankshafts. Please contact us through the website or at [email protected] if you have any questions.


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## Roc'N'Green (Apr 1, 2010)

Ahh the diameter is different, I was under the impression that it was same diameter and just weighed less. 

Now its making since why it could have an effect on the cooling and charging. I run a standard temp thermostat and low temp fan switch. I have lived in areas where summers are consistently 100+ degrees F and never had an issue with this setup. I also don't even have a radio in my car (who needs it when you pay all your hard earned pennies for that sweet exhaust and motor) so I doubt I demand very much from the alternator. 

I am glad this thread came up, I have never heard of lella until now :thumbup:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

I guess I must have just too much time on my hands these days. But I believe I am seeing a pattern here and find it a little funny or maybe interesting so I have to comment. The original response, by someone at Lella Autosport, to my first post here about knowing the down sides to this product and not listening to the sales hype was, well cold to say the least, without any hard facts, but still cold. As the posting from Lella Autosport continued here they have become more and more tilted towards exactly what I was pointing out before while still tip-toeing past answering the questions asked with any facts. Kind of makes one wonder just how much thought went into having this product made. I’m sure this will be called nonsense and not worthy of any intellegent response, but I still want it pointed out. 



Lella Autosport said:


> As far as the charging/cooling it depends. The charging will depend on how many accessories you have running. We have had several people use them on their street cars and not one has ever complained of having charging issues. *AND* Will you have cooling problems at lows speeds? Technically their is the possibility, but nobody has ever complained they are having cooling issues.


 Sound like anything you might have heard before, like in my first post here? Yeah, the disclaimer was added “nobody has complained so far” but really, that is a basic logic mistake. Just because no one has complained does not equal it has or can not happen. It just means nobody cares to say so or it was a risk they took and knew it might happen or they purchased the item and have yet to use it or they have not reached that point yet where it could be an issue, or . . . or . . . or . . . Or you can look at it a different way as pointed out, also bad logic I might add, X company has sold thousands (how do you know?) and are used every day on street cars. That is like saying 10 billion flys eat sh§t every day so you should too or thousands of Lemmings run over the edge of cliffs into the sea so you should also. Come on now. 

I have a quote here from a long time race driver/engine builder I found on the Internet in just a few minutes of searching this topic for fun. This is not from a Volkswagen forum but still relates, "As for pulley size and drive ratio concerns. I just stepped outside and carefully measured them and the OEM single v belt crank pulley is 6” diameter and the water pump pulley is 5.75”. Keep in mind that there was no A/C or power steering being driven by these single belt setups. I tried running a small Moroso aluminum lower pulley that is about 3.5”- 4” some time ago but felt that the alternator would not be charging enough so I discontinued using the small pulley (on the crank), My car was and continues to be primarily street driven” Again not my words, but there is more just like this out there if you search enough. 



Lella Autosport said:


> The weight saving is just an added bonus.


 Now this one took me by surprise. Now it is just an added bonus instead of one of the highlight selling points in the ad. Just why exactly is that? Did someone do their homework and discover removing the spare tire and jack as I said would be a bigger increase and not cost $130? The value of this wonder pulley seems to be sinking as time passes, and to be honest it should. Is the text of the ad going to change soon also, na, that could hurt sales. I can only say go slow and watch your wording because at this rate you just might begin getting responses like these from some of the people here too. 


Lella Autosport said:


> I was going to respond to your idiotic comments. . . You are a genius and everybody else knows nothing . . .


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## Q Pts C (Nov 3, 2008)

Thanks Lella Autosport, this is just what I was looking for. Just ordered one :thumbup::thumbup: 


Waterwheels, 
you need to find yourself a girlfriend, if you can find one that will tolerate your complaining.


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## Ziptied (Dec 1, 2009)

Waterwheels reminds me of the kids when i was in high school that would argue about subjects they were not informed about and then have to try to save themselves:laugh:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Q Pts C said:


> Waterwheels,
> you need to find yourself a girlfriend, if you can find one that will tolerate your complaining.


 Very well researched, thought out and educated comment. But I am married, have been for maybe as long as many people here are old, and just where am I doing this "complaining"? I mean the word complaining I do understand from school and just can't seem to figure out where it fits into what I have said. Care to explain? Doubt it as that is the wonder of the Internet. You can say what you will, claim what you will, pretend to be who ever you like and claim to be as smart as Einstein's father. If someone does call your hand, most times they are too scared themselves, all you do is double talk, post stupid irrelevant childish comments and hope things go away before to long. If not then set up a new account and start over. It's just me I'm sure but I kiked the days when if you had a question you went down to the local mechanic's garage and asked. And if the mechanic thought you were a stupid wet behind the ears punk, the greasy dirty stinky machanic would blow cigar smoke in your face and tell you to get lost. Ahhh, the days of face to face contact and red faces when you screwed up.


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## mkdons (Dec 14, 2010)

Say what you will, but WaterWheels at least did a bit of homework, ya know? 

I'm no technical expert, but like it's already been stated, an underdrive pulley in combination with different factors may produce results in racing apps, but for daily driving your money could probably be spent in better areas (cams, head work, etc.). 

FWIW I had an underdrive pulley added to my MX3 years ago and it really didn't make any noticeable difference until the higher part of the rev range (I don't hang out there much these days, but 'twas fun while it lasted)... 

:beer:


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