# Installed MSS Springs on my TTRS



## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

I was a little underwelmed with the magneride setup on the RS compared to the R8, so I decided 
I needed to look at suspension options. I figured I would wait for an Ohlins set up like I had on my RS4. But I stumbled on some threads by 996cab on UK boards and here on a spring set up he was working on. I decided to give it a chance & contact him to see about aquiring his springs in the US. He sold me a MSS kit as a "tester". I have had it on the car for a bit now.

The ride is a noticable improvement over stock in both S & non S modes. In non S it is really 
smooth over minor road imperfections that would transfer previously on stock springs. It's a more subtle improvement to the ride in S mode. Now S mode is usable alot more than before as it is much less nervous feeling and doesn't crash over bumps like before. What really suprised me (even though William stated this throughout his posts) was the degree of handling improvement
that came with this better ride. 

Turn in is better as is transistions in both modes and dive/squat is much better to the point of not noticing in much at all. It really gives a sense of composure that was lacking especially on less that perfect pavement and takes that giggle and bounce out of the S mode. I wasn't looking to 
drop the ride so much on this car as wheel clearances are difficult with the RS anyway so this really works for me and I won't be shopping for a coilover kit with this car. Very happy camper!


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## myquitacre (Feb 17, 2013)

How much does it lower and when will it be available? I dont think the wife needs coilovers, just a good set of springs.


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

myquitacre said:


> How much does it lower and when will it be available? I dont think the wife needs coilovers, just a good set of springs.


It will lower up to 20mm front & 15mm rear depending some on weight. It can be very close 
to stock height if you want it that way. I really wanted to start high and when I pick some wheels maybe go lower but I don't want rubbing. Pre orders are being lined up now for the first 100
kits. you can email William for details. [email protected]


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## myquitacre (Feb 17, 2013)

are the springs progressive or linear?


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

The fronts are linear and the rears are triple rated stacked spring. This will better describe the 
spring set:

http://s1343.beta.photobucket.com/u...il_share&_suid=136286111653005030010043671179


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## myquitacre (Feb 17, 2013)

so are these for a base 2.0TT Quattro as well?


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## sentari (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes.... any TT with Magride... This is the setup i'm moving to as well. I want to retain the stock push-button controls on mag-ride. I hate hacking up the car's features just to get performance so I'd prefer to give this try....so i'm pre-ordering as well....


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

myquitacre said:


> so are these for a base 2.0TT Quattro as well?


I don't think they were originally marketed for the 2.0TT due to weight. I know the 3.2 works, but I'm not sure about the base TT. I would email Willliam to double check.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

I am surprised that this is an issue at all.

Many magazines have ran the TTRS on the track and reviewed it and none have mentioned that the TTRS has anything unsettling about its suspension set-up.

Every article I have read about the TTRS as far as handling goes has been positive (with the exception of understeer characteristics at the limit)

When I test drove it, I thought the suspension was very nice and offered a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde quality. 

I didn't push the car too hard, but did take an on-ramp that was less than perfect and the car stayed planted and settled the whole time.

You want to try a car that will scare you with its body motions, try a Z06 on stock shocks.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

TRZ06 said:


> I am surprised that this is an issue at all.


For me it's more of an issue in normal mode than sport. Just a bit too much roll and dive/squat in day-to-day driving. Sport firms up enough to resolve this but can get a bit unsettled on choppier surfaces. I'd also like a bit stiffer rear spring to help get the car turned in quicker. While I have not sampled the MSS kit myself, everything I've read through development indicates that they are intended to resolve these issues. They're on my short list for mods this year.


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

TRZ06 said:


> I am surprised that this is an issue at all.
> 
> Many magazines have ran the TTRS on the track and reviewed it and none have mentioned that the TTRS has anything unsettling about its suspension set-up.
> 
> ...


I didn't think the TTRS had any major handling flaws or I would have never bought one. After driving it for awhile, I did think Audi did a better job on the R8 with ride and balance. As far as track performance, I don't doubt in s mode it would be decent. I haven't tracked it yet. I'm pretty confident MSS will make it better. Hopefully later this month I will find out


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

JohnLZ7W said:


> For me it's more of an issue in normal mode than sport. Just a bit too much roll and dive/squat in day-to-day driving. Sport firms up enough to resolve this but can get a bit unsettled on choppier surfaces. I'd also like a bit stiffer rear spring to help get the car turned in quicker. While I have not sampled the MSS kit myself, everything I've read through development indicates that they are intended to resolve these issues. They're on my short list for mods this year.


That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell as to why I went this route.


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

*MSS Explained*



TRZ06 said:


> I am surprised that this is an issue at all.
> 
> Many magazines have ran the TTRS on the track and reviewed it and none have mentioned that the TTRS has anything unsettling about its suspension set-up.
> 
> ...


Hi TR06 and All,
Great debate and thx to all on this thread for this shameless (_me, never_...) opportunity to explain MSS in more detail.

I am William - MSS creator, and do not visit here as much as I would like however I wanted to add some points to this debate and thanks to all for contributing...I promise ya’ll, this will not be one of my infamous long posts...(_fat chance_...:laugh:).

There are 5 testers of the MSS kit and all will share their experiences here I suspect in due course - they all have different uses for their cars from daily driving only thus the comfort over OEM I promised with MSS has been tested and proven to advanced track use - just take a look at my signature for proof of MSS varied use. 

The Sport version is a multi-purpose kit which lowers the car minimally however improves on OEM in the areas noted immediately below.

MSS was born out of the following *key issues* with my MagneRide equipped TT-RS Roadster...;
1) Squatting on acceleration in a straight line or out of a corner on streets or track.

2) Diving/skating on hard stop even with OEM brake setup and made worse with front BBK.

3) Choppy ride in the firmer mode for spirited driving on streets. This does unsettle the rear of the car on rougher roads however on smooth roads car is fine in standard trim. The challenge, as often, is finding smoother roads to navigate on a daily basis or during spirited drives on streets.

4) To add to point #3, hitting a pothole made the issue worse as the whole car often shuddered from the experience.

5) The steering felt ‘vague’ at best especially if you have driven or own other cars like an Aston V8 Vantage; A Porsche – any of the 98x or 911 models to name but two.

6) TC/ESP causing the rear of the car to wobble during spirited driving with late braking in to a sharp bend…I suffered this effect twice and the experience was so unnerving that my initial thoughts were to sell the car and move on…suffice to say I stayed and fixed this issue also.

I fixed all of the above once MSS was developed and fitted…if you have bothered following my past posts you may be aware that when it comes to modding the car I have pretty much got all the mods the car can have to address handling; power; brake issues…none of those worked well until the final ‘glue’ that is MSS was applied then the whole package made sense and the car came to life. 

The Audi TT MK2 Quattro platform with MagneRide equipped is a fine tool to drive around in however a little bit more handling finese was required for those moments when one stumbles upon a long winding empty road that stretches the best part of a few miles...here you simply want to drive and feel like...erm...a racing driver.... 

As it stands today, should I purchase a new TT; TT-S; TT-RS the first mod will be MSS…then I will address the sub standard brake pads and that would be it for me…nowt else is needed. Once I get used to the power then I will add a Stage 2 map. The car would then be plenty quick for 99% of my usage.

In regards to the issues raised above, I will explain all of the above briefly and how MSS contributes to minimize and in some cases eradicate the issue entirely. I will assume we have all taken some sleeping pills so no risk of anyone falling asleep here…!!!

Some *Useful Info* – MSS uses rear spring rates which is over 10x that of the OEM spring rate. I settled on this implementation with technical input from the Chief Engineer at BWI (_they currently own the MagneRide technology having bought it off GM/Delphi_) who headed the team that actually worked with Audi GMBH to implement MagneRide Gen2 on the MK2 as well as the Audi R8; Ferrari; Range Rover Evoque. 

He, essentially, knows more about the technology and its implementation on those brands than anyone else on the NET. His team are currently working on MagneRide Gen3 (_we have Gen2 in our cars_) for the MK3 TT. Gen3 has been successfully implemented on the Range Rover Evoque…which the reviews liked very much in terms of ride etc.

The Chief Engineer at BWI shared your views when I was introduced to him by his boss – a very good friend of mine. Today, he has been one of the driving forces of MSS encouraging me to exploit limits which I thought was not possible. 

When I started with the development, I made the same mistake Audi made by using softer springs…that was wrong…the secret to getting over 2400Ibs of springs to work on MagneRide is not one I will share here due to NDA and BWI would crucify me if I did however rest assured that MSS is one of those finds that it is best to sample then form a view…everything you think you know about the MagneRide damper technology is simply wrong and will change once MSS is sampled…! 

As a damper technology, it is far more capable than most realize for spirited street use and advanced track use…I know because we pushed MSS all of last year without MagneRide so much as making a sound…and that was on tracks doing over 400 laps in the dry and wet. 

*Points #1; #2; #3; #4* is resolved by MSS due to the use of firmer rear springs. This has two fold effects on front and rear axle as follows…

The firmer MSS springs stops the car squatting excessively thus MagneRide does less work in compression mode however then comes in to play during rebound mode stopping the car from oscillating – keep in mind MSS being firm at compression. Think about the point made here…firm springs stops compression…damper then stops the springs at rebound, end result is that the car settles down quicker and thus ride comfort is maintained with a cushioning effect. 

The OEM springs encourage further oscillation due to being too soft and MagneRide obliges thus allows further oscillation by design…that is in the soft mode. In the firm mode MagneRide acts similar to MSS however here it applies more stopping force at compression and rebound hence the ride is a little choppy/brittle…effectively, MagneRide stops the springs from oscillating abruptly. What I have done with MSS by design is to take MagneRide out of operation at compression and only comes to work at rebound, briefly…*S I* *M P L E S…! *

The effect is stuning and just so difficult to understand...we spent a whole year attempting to understand this until BWI came along and explained everything in such simple terms...then they encouraged me to exploit further hence I have 4 kits in total starting with MSS Sports which it self uses 2400Ibs rear springs going up to MSS Track _Pack Plus_ which uses over 3000Ibs rear springs...yeah, you can have a ride on a bull back if you are brave enough...! Track _Pack Plus_ would make you feel alive in the firmer MagneRide mode and that is for sure...though the ride is remarkably sane in the soft mode...!

*Point #5* – I stumbled on the effect of firmer rear springs having a positive effect on steering by accident during various iterations of MSS design…remember I noted above about following the Audi soft rear concept and failing miserably…well after that failure in the MSS development I went a little wild with very firm linear springs on the rears…great for steering input however the ride was HARSH…! More fiddling around and I got the effect I wanted hence the triple rate springs on the rears and softer springs on the front axle…*BINGO*…was the word…!

*Point #6* – MSS whole concept is to promote soft ride to the wheels thus I based my principles of development on lower wheel rates. Check out Ferraris and Porsche suspension designs…in fact with Porsche check out the wheel rates for the 924, 928 and 968 then the GT3RS 4.0…you will note one obvious fact…the wheel rates are low by design. This makes for great tyre contact patch thus promoting more grip. Ferrari are well known for applying this principle very well to their entry level cars…not the 599 however….!

Anyway, I promote lower wheel rate to get more mechanical grip by design however this also needs to ensure that the springs can hold the car up enough to stop it from bottoming out…we do this by design with the springs using materials that promote more travel – thank you Eibach for the insight – thus promoting that key mechanical grip for the tyres to have great road contact patch.

The net effect here is that ESP/TC will not activate more often thus none of the side effects of constantly applying brakes when ESP/TC ‘_thinks’_ you have lost grip. In short, you may save on brake pads/disc/tyres and have none of the wobbling effect I suffered and I know a few Audi TT owners have suffered when you decide to have some fun by pushing the car a little during spirited driving on streets or track. I have eradicated this particular issue permanently…!

I have a review from Eibach which I have shared with a few people on email who have been following the MSS development path over the past few months...in regards to the Eibach review, let us just say they 'liked' MSS so much that the route to market is being expedited with their full support/backing.


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## myquitacre (Feb 17, 2013)

what happens if you put these springs on a non-magride equipped car? Wouldn't that be just like a magride car that is driving around in non-S mode?


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

myquitacre said:


> what happens if you put these springs on a non-magride equipped car? Wouldn't that be just like a magride car that is driving around in non-S mode?


The effect would be that the ride would be at best very 'bouncy' due to the lack of sufficient rebound control by the dampers thus the car will take a few oscillations before settling down.


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## myquitacre (Feb 17, 2013)

gayest news I've heard all day


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

" I wanted hence the triple rate springs on the rears and softer springs on the front axle…BINGO…was the word…!"

William can u please explain why triple rate springs are not beneficial for the front? Why a softer single rate spring in front?


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

Koa1 said:


> " I wanted hence the triple rate springs on the rears and softer springs on the front axle…BINGO…was the word…!"
> 
> William can u please explain why triple rate springs are not beneficial for the front? Why a softer single rate spring in front?


 Hi Koa1,
reasons are as follows...;
1) in the case of the kit I have put together the linear springs on the front have a higher wheel rate compared to the rear thus a change to higher rated progressive springs is not necessary. Besides, there is minimal space to get things right and I did not want to start cutting parts out of the car. MSS is a direct bolt-on...no cutting/chopping required. It is a fit & forget solution.

2) Progressive springs on the steered axle - _this is a hotly debated topic by the way_ - often yields inconsistent results thus to aid steering '_feel_' I opted to stick with linear springs as opposed to progressive. Progressive springs on steered axle may also affect braking / promote skating...again, this is very much a hotly contested point.

3) The issue with the car has always been rear axle related and not necessarily fronts even in OEM trim.

4) I did try higher rated linear springs on the front axle and the handling was jarring, car easily lost composure on bumps/pot holes - makes sense due to wheel rate being increased further.

5) There is an Audi balance in terms of front to rear axle ratio which is best to maintain to get MagneRide working at its optimum...I have kept that in mind when developing the MSS kit.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

ETA as to when we can get a set?


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

joneze93tsi said:


> ETA as to when we can get a set?


Good question...

10-wks if I can get enough numbers to place an order for 100 units manufactured by Eibach - I have a holding manufacturung slot which closes at end of March so am looking to place that order by end of March though I need the numbers to ramp up a little from the early takers thus far...another 30-takers and I will commit an order with Eibach.

Post that, I will invest in holding a minimum of 100 units in stock at all times thus from 11-wks after 30th March ETA is 5 days shipping from UK to US...could FedEx it quicker I suspect however can't comment as shipping cost could be also higher.

EU and UK based takers will offcourse get next day delivery from Week 11 onwards.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

996cab said:


> Good question...
> 
> 10-wks if I can get enough numbers to place an order for 100 units manufactured by Eibach - I have a holding manufacturung slot which closes at end of March so am looking to place that order by end of March though I need the numbers to ramp up a little from the early takers thus far...another 30-takers and I will commit an order with Eibach.
> 
> ...




Maybe get a group buy going?


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

joneze93tsi said:


> Maybe get a group buy going?


Interesting point - Am waiting for VMG to approve my request for advertising on here...have chased a few times to no avail...which is a little frustrating...!

Moderators, 
how can I get traction to promote MSS as per my email to [email protected]?


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## as350 (Nov 8, 2011)

William, thanks for the details. It sounds like this suspension kit that you developed is a great addition to the list of available mods.

Did I miss it somewhere, or have you listed prices for the 4 suspension variants?


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

as350 said:


> William, thanks for the details. It sounds like this suspension kit that you developed is a great addition to the list of available mods.
> 
> Did I miss it somewhere, or have you listed prices for the 4 suspension variants?


 You have not missed anything…inline with forum rules am refraining, with some degree of self control, from making this a sales thread whilst I push VMG to approve my request to be a paid up sponsor...at the moment I can't even give them business because no one is responding to my request!

I just need the green light and I can share more useful pricing info…though for what it is worth, it will cost less than a date with Angelina Jolie…I think…


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

My set goes on Friday and I can't wait. Very excited. 

I also look forward to testing them on my upcoming 5k mile road trip


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

TRZ06 said:


> I am surprised that this is an issue at all.
> 
> Many magazines have ran the TTRS on the track and reviewed it and none have mentioned that the TTRS has anything unsettling about its suspension set-up.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, you neeed to drive a TTRS on a day to day basis to undersand why this MSS setup up is a great middle ground that gives you the best of both worlds. 

Car magazines rip around on mirror smooth racetracks... S mode is great on those....I want the composure of S mode on NORMAL roads without the harshness.

I personally hate driving in normal mode since its the throttle is so sluggish and I like the extra pedal sensitivity for easy rev matching of downshifts....


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

croman44 said:


> My set goes on Friday and I can't wait. Very excited.
> 
> I also look forward to testing them on my upcoming 5k mile road trip


You will really appreciate the enhanced ride in both modes on a long trip like that. Perfect timing!


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## theguz66 (Dec 20, 2012)

as350 said:


> William, thanks for the details. It sounds like this suspension kit that you developed is a great addition to the list of available mods.
> 
> Did I miss it somewhere, or have you listed prices for the 4 suspension variants?


If you want to sample the springs, I am very close to you in OR. I would be glad to meet up.
Feel free to PM me


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

croman44 said:


> My set goes on Friday and I can't wait. Very excited.
> 
> I also look forward to testing them on my upcoming 5k mile road trip


That would be good Cliff. 

Let us know how you get on with MSS Sports.


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