# which exhaust mani for F23?



## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

Which exhaust manifold is recommended to use with the F23 on an mk4? Should I just go with the frankenturbo manifold or something different? any recommendations?


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

asylum said:


> Which exhaust manifold is recommended to use with the F23 on an mk4? Should I just go with the frankenturbo manifold or something different? any recommendations?


why not go with the frankenturbo mani?


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

I got the oem tt225 manifold. Works good and is as reliable as it gets. 

I was thinking about getting the FT manifold but I donno if Doug sorted out he issues. Maybe he can chime in.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

well, there are actually a couple ways to go there. You could go for our manifold or opt for the JBS unit. There's also a new Chinese-made (meaning inexpensive) manifold being sold by Relentless Tuning. I don't have tuning data for these alternatives but I'd think they're solid performers. So then it becomes a question of budget.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> well, there are actually a couple ways to go there. You could go for our manifold or opt for the JBS unit. There's also a new Chinese-made (meaning inexpensive) manifold being sold by Relentless Tuning. I don't have tuning data for these alternatives but I'd think they're solid performers. So then it becomes a question of budget.


honest feedback:beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

JBS isn't, it has a flow problem which can be remedied with grinding, but won't be properly because they don't want to talk about it 

FrankenTurbo:









__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view










Relentless v3:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Would the relentless manifold work on a K04-001 style turbo?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

No. For your K03-fitment turbo you're looking at a cast manifold from Kinetic or ATP. JBS has also introduced one but it's expensive and unproven.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah the JBS is pretty but it's damned expensive. I had a Kintetic and it cracked, and I had to have it machined to as it ws warped from the get go. 

I may just try a Ebay cheap log mani and see how it goes. If it needs to be cleaned up a bit that's no bid deal. 


I'd love to know what difference these different manifolds make for us hybrid users.


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> well, there are actually a couple ways to go there. You could go for our manifold or opt for the JBS unit. There's also a new Chinese-made (meaning inexpensive) manifold being sold by Relentless Tuning. I don't have tuning data for these alternatives but I'd think they're solid performers. So then it becomes a question of budget.


Were the issues sorted? I read about needing to grind the head and flanges needing milling? Or am I mistaken?


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

Big_Tom said:


> why not go with the frankenturbo mani?



Just weighing my options.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Were the issues sorted? I read about needing to grind the head and flanges needing milling? Or am I mistaken?


You might be referring to what I noticed upon pulling the engine. It was not leaking, more of just resting up against the head. Being picky, I did grind to give clearance. I believe I'm the only one that experienced it as far as I know. Really wasn't a big deal for me, but that's all relative.

My flanges were flat and I've had no real performance issues with it.

EDIT: I guess I did forget about the stud issue. I converted two studs to allen bolts, but you might get away with the smaller hex nuts on the OE studs.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

The stock 225 manifold is the most restrictive manifold to come out on the 1.8T engine. That said, it's still ok for around 280-290 whp. The small diameter runners helps for a slightly quicker spool-up, but will produce high EGTs when pushed hard. Not much material to open up if your are inclined to porting it with a die grinder. If you go for one, be sure to check for small cracks inside ther collector. Minor ones can easily be ground out, but major cracks will trash it.

Haven't held a Relentless in my hand, but others have commented on the improvments with the V3 release. I'm still waiting to see what the longivity of these will come out to be. Seems to be a real pain to install.

The Frankenturbo, in my opinion, is the best bang for the buck. I 've heard of some mounting issues when trying use the stock downpipe on the TT225, but tons o' flow and great price. Even if you have to work it a little to get it to fit (don't know if this is true except in a few cases), it's worth it.

The JBS K04 is the gold standard as far as build quality and material, with one exception. The divider in the collector needs to be re-worked to remove most of the material. If the divider isn't cut down (a lot), misfires will occur. Re-work with a die grinder is a necessity. However, given the material this thing is made from, it stands the best chance to last the life if the car without failing, even OEM. Oh yeh, the price and shipping on these things are high, to say the least. (BTW, the JBS K03 manifold has a lot more run time on it and seems to not exhibit the same problem, at least as far as I can find.)

For a basic F23 setup, you can stick with the stock TT225 manifold. If you plan to push it, choose from the other three.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

If the relentless has fixed its issues, I'd probably go that route. I won't go JBS because of they didn't own up to their issue with the manifold. I would be afraid to buy the wrong version of mani. How would you even know your getting a V1,2,3?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


> If the relentless has fixed its issues, I'd probably go that route. I won't go JBS because of they didn't own up to their issue with the manifold. I would be afraid to buy the wrong version of mani. How would you even know your getting a V1,2,3?


I am not a big fan of the relentless unit. For some reason, I don't see it taking the abuse for too long before cracking. That's just an opinion and not based on anything related to them, but I would not expect it to last (relative) to the abuse of some setup. 

I also think that flow is not the only factor on relatively small framed K04/hybrid exhaust manifold. The stock unit suck everywhere, but the long tube design (although well flowing) may sacrifice too much transient response and spool from onset to midrange. I could be the one over-thinking this, but IMO the shorty type (think K03 stock manifold), but with better flow characteristics is the way to go. I would forgo a bit of flow personally to keep the turbine motivated down low. My 2 cents!

Eric, if you feel that welded tubulars fits your application, I would just go with Doug's manifold. You'll support an involved vendor in the community and have someone to go to when/if the welded tubular cracks. From my past experiences they all do at some point, even the super exotic ones. I had AMS and full race crack eventually in my EVOs, despite the above average construction and material used. If you can develop cracks on the stock unit overtime, which isn't unusual, any welded tubular will crack sooner or later.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I am not a big fan of the relentless unit. For some reason, I don't see it taking the abuse for too long before cracking. That's just an opinion and not based on anything related to them, but I would not expect it to last (relative) to the abuse of some setup.
> 
> I also think that flow is not the only factor on relatively small framed K04/hybrid exhaust manifold. The stock unit suck everywhere, but the long tube design (although well flowing) may sacrifice too much transient response and spool from onset to midrange. I could be the one over-thinking this, but IMO the shorty type (think K03 stock manifold), but with better flow characteristics is the way to go. I would forgo a bit of flow personally to keep the turbine motivated down low. My 2 cents!
> 
> Eric, if you feel that welded tubulars fits your application, I would just go with Doug's manifold. You'll support an involved vendor in the community and have someone to go to when/if the welded tubular cracks. From my past experiences they all do at some point, even the super exotic ones. I had AMS and full race crack eventually in my EVOs, despite the above average construction and material used. If you can develop cracks on the stock unit overtime, which isn't unusual, any welded tubular will crack sooner or later.


Agreed :beer: I'm sure the relentless manifold is nowhere near as durable as the cast alternatives. It looks kool tho :laugh::thumbup:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Yeah that relentless manifold will crack from you just looking at it...:thumbdown:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Twopnt016v said:


> Yeah that relentless manifold will crack from you just looking at it...:thumbdown:


lol


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

in denial still are they?
shame... it has potential.. but also flawed at same time in runners 1,2 sharing the small collector port = misfires on #2 as a consequence


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I am not a big fan of the relentless unit. For some reason, I don't see it taking the abuse for too long before cracking. That's just an opinion and not based on anything related to them, but I would not expect it to last (relative) to the abuse of some setup.
> 
> I also think that flow is not the only factor on relatively small framed K04/hybrid exhaust manifold. The stock unit suck everywhere, but the long tube design (although well flowing) may sacrifice too much transient response and spool from onset to midrange. I could be the one over-thinking this, but IMO the shorty type (think K03 stock manifold), but with better flow characteristics is the way to go. I would forgo a bit of flow personally to keep the turbine motivated down low. My 2 cents!
> 
> Eric, if you feel that welded tubulars fits your application, I would just go with Doug's manifold. You'll support an involved vendor in the community and have someone to go to when/if the welded tubular cracks. From my past experiences they all do at some point, even the super exotic ones. I had AMS and full race crack eventually in my EVOs, despite the above average construction and material used. If you can develop cracks on the stock unit overtime, which isn't unusual, any welded tubular will crack sooner or later.


relentless v3 is a lot different to their previous incarnations...
i have see the evolution of these 1st hand, and influenced/advised guys over here working with relentless to improve their product from a joke.. misfitting cracking thing to something which is made of a superior material, welded in a more appropriate manner, and fits..
flow wise.. there is no contest.. merge collector design yields more power than others for the same boost from what i see.
what you do is pass the flow onto the next restrictive item.. namely the hotside itself...

relentless v3 i seriously worth considering.. but install the oe k04 support bracket so its not holding the whole weight on its own, and make sure the downpipe is hangered onto the rear of the subframe like std TT do.

yea its manufacturing origin is cn, but so are so many other products...... and they are'nt all shyte. you need a nice high flow intake tip to go with it to yield some airflow gains..  like my v3 80mm tip which is lhd friendly..


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Ah crap, I almost want to skip a GT28 for now and try the v3 and an F23, certainly cheaper than the BT...


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

I chose the F23 over a gt28 not only due to price, but the powerrice ratio. :thumbup:

Might a gt2871 might be more fun (but more lag)?...Donno. But its more fun goin just as fast and still have $ in the bank


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

badger5 said:


> relentless v3 is a lot different to their previous incarnations...
> i have see the evolution of these 1st hand, and influenced/advised guys over here working with relentless to improve their product from a joke.. misfitting cracking thing to something which is made of a superior material, welded in a more appropriate manner, and fits..
> flow wise.. there is no contest.. merge collector design yields more power than others for the same boost from what i see.
> what you do is pass the flow onto the next restrictive item.. namely the hotside itself...
> ...


Bill, the flow temptation got me a few times before with welded tubular manifolds, and will not fall for the temptation again. I removed the cast OEM unit in my EVO for a Full Race manifold that was more art than car part IMO (top notch welds, proper wall thickness, and exotic materials). It gave me awesome power, especially up top where the stock unit struggled, but started cracking in several places before the 2 year mark. AMS stepped in after a forum discussion and offered to make two autocross/road race versions of their off-the-shelf manifolds for me and another member that raced hardcore. The units were superb across the board due to the short length tubes, but also cracked in my car after two years (no wrapping done). The consensus was that consistent heat cycling of a DD was to much for a welded tubular design (the unit lasted a lot longer in the other tester car because it only saw track action).

At this point, after the big disappointment with JBS, I will take my chances with porting the OEM unit. The runner entrances are quite big but aggressively tapers at the collector. I plan on Extrude Honing it and porting it as much as the material thickness allows. Another idea, suggested by Atomic Ed is to weld-fill the crater outside of the collector to give enough material to really go to town. Should be an interesting project! :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Ah crap, I almost want to skip a GT28 for now and try the v3 and an F23, certainly cheaper than the BT...


How does one buy this v3 Relentless? Because I'd like to test it with an F23.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

http://xs-power.com/audi-turbo-manifolds-6.htm


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

All_Euro said:


> http://xs-power.com/audi-turbo-manifolds-6.htm


I'm told that's the inferior "v2". This is despite the product description which list v3 specs.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I'm told that's the inferior "v2". This is despite the product description which list v3 specs.


Oops - that's good to know :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, keep in mind, _that's what I've heard_. I'd confirm it with them myself but they'd likely consider me a competitor and not be very forthcoming. But honestly, if this v3 works with my turbo, I'm fine with that.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, I say why speculate? So let's give this bad boy a whirl:











At less than 200 smackers on Ebay, why not let the FrankenTT be the guinea pig?


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> At less than 200 smackers on Ebay, why not let the FrankenTT be the guinea pig?



Who better?!? Doug, have you thought about making a newer ExManifold design?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Who better?!? Doug, have you thought about making a newer ExManifold design?


Yes. It all depends on whether I can pry Ed @ FFE away from his ever-present backlog of custom projects. He'd be an amazing resource for doing an updated variant. But I really don't want to make one that looks like this thing. God it's ugly.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Yes. It all depends on whether I can pry Ed @ FFE away from his ever-present backlog of custom projects. He'd be an amazing resource for doing an updated variant. But I really don't want to make one that looks like this thing. God it's ugly.


Hey, I spoke to Ed about what it would take to make one, just to have an idea... and with his method it would be quite time consuming and pricey. Maybe you can get him to make you a prototype and use that as a blueprint for production. I have a few design ideas of what would make a killer small frame turbo tubular exhaust manifold (remember we talked about it when were coming out with the original design). Let me know if you if you want me to help with the design :beer:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeah it looks like a nightmare to install! 

Just spitballing here but I feel like you could make something similar with more equal length tubes and the "v" shaped collector. Kind of like the design you have now but integrating a better collector.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> How does one buy this v3 Relentless? Because I'd like to test it with an F23.





[email protected] said:


> Well, keep in mind, _that's what I've heard_. I'd confirm it with them myself but they'd likely consider me a competitor and not be very forthcoming. But honestly, if this v3 works with my turbo, I'm fine with that.





[email protected] said:


> Well, I say why speculate? So let's give this bad boy a whirl:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:beer::beer::beer: I like what you are doing here Doug. No more speculation, just testing eace:


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## ~Enigma~ (Jul 8, 2009)

Just wondering if anyone is rocking the V3... what the sound sounds like? It seems like a UNequal length mani... idk how un equal, but I know oem subies have UNequal length runners and that what makes that subi sound... any exhaust rumble?
Also I have been playing with the thought of FT f4, F23, and gt28rs for a couple years now... it comes to price... and with the age of my engine and a few small issues (with a big $) I need to fix... I may be going F4... but I still look at this F23 a lot...wish I had the money now :/


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

~Enigma~ said:


> Just wondering if anyone is rocking the V3... what the sound sounds like? It seems like a UNequal length mani... idk how un equal, but I know oem subies have UNequal length runners and that what makes that subi sound... any exhaust rumble?
> Also I have been playing with the thought of FT f4, F23, and gt28rs for a couple years now... it comes to price... and with the age of my engine and a few small issues (with a big $) I need to fix... I may be going F4... but I still look at this F23 a lot...wish I had the money now :/


You can still have lots of fun with the F4T.:thumbup::thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Maybe you can get him to make you a prototype and use that as a blueprint for production.


Exactly. It needs to be something that I can get reproduced inexpensively by my workshop in Shanghai. They're good guys over there, but I'd enjoy re-thinking this part.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly. It needs to be something that I can get reproduced inexpensively by my workshop in Shanghai. They're good guys over there, but I'd enjoy re-thinking this part.


Sounds like the ball is rolling:thumbup:


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## No Pork (Jan 3, 2010)

~Enigma~ said:


> Just wondering if anyone is rocking the V3... what the sound sounds like? It seems like a UNequal length mani... idk how un equal, but I know oem subies have UNequal length runners and that what makes that subi sound... any exhaust rumble?
> Also I have been playing with the thought of FT f4, F23, and gt28rs for a couple years now... it comes to price... and with the age of my engine and a few small issues (with a big $) I need to fix... I may be going F4... but I still look at this F23 a lot...wish I had the money now :/


Im in the same exact boat as you buddy


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

~Enigma~ said:


> Just wondering if anyone is rocking the V3... what the sound sounds like? It seems like a UNequal length mani... idk how un equal, but I know oem subies have UNequal length runners and that what makes that subi sound... any exhaust rumble?



I have one of those manifolds coming for my F23. I should have the manifold here by tuesday and then just have to wait for my F23 to come and then everything is getting installed so I cant really comment on the difference between that one and the frankenturbo manifold.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Bill, the flow temptation got me a few times before with welded tubular manifolds, and will not fall for the temptation again. I removed the cast OEM unit in my EVO for a Full Race manifold that was more art than car part IMO (top notch welds, proper wall thickness, and exotic materials). It gave me awesome power, especially up top where the stock unit struggled, but started cracking in several places before the 2 year mark. AMS stepped in after a forum discussion and offered to make two autocross/road race versions of their off-the-shelf manifolds for me and another member that raced hardcore. The units were superb across the board due to the short length tubes, but also cracked in my car after two years (no wrapping done). The consensus was that consistent heat cycling of a DD was to much for a welded tubular design (the unit lasted a lot longer in the other tester car because it only saw track action).
> 
> At this point, after the big disappointment with JBS, I will take my chances with porting the OEM unit. The runner entrances are quite big but aggressively tapers at the collector. I plan on Extrude Honing it and porting it as much as the material thickness allows. Another idea, suggested by Atomic Ed is to weld-fill the crater outside of the collector to give enough material to really go to town. Should be an interesting project! :thumbup:



my full race is 6 years old and going ok.. ceramic coated from the outset however which is part of the success in my mind.

cast crack too.. just look at stockers... the environment is hot.. lol


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly. It needs to be something that I can get reproduced inexpensively by my workshop in Shanghai. They're good guys over there, but I'd enjoy re-thinking this part.


lmao
chinese copying the chinese... haha...

321 stainless apparently on the v3.. its heavier than the v2, and its welds are back purged as best i can tell and not just fusion surface welded like the earlier ones.

It fits.. you can access the fixings.. the turbo mounting needs to be studded on at least one and its fiddly.. but doable.

it flows pretty well. more than jbs, more than ported stock..
quite a few UK guys are on them.. and much of the testing feedback has been from over here.

of the manifolds out there, its my preferred design with its merge collector.. but as with many things far eastern made cheaply, longevity remains to be proven over time. We shall see.

I have 2 here.. a v2 and a v3.. and have had v1's here also... seen them all. lol

Just Dont consider using their crappy supplied gaskets. They will fall apart in short time.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> lmao
> chinese copying the chinese... haha...
> 
> 321 stainless apparently on the v3.. its heavier than the v2, and its welds are back purged as best i can tell and not just fusion surface welded like the earlier ones.


Have you noticed that all these units, no matter who is selling them, cites 321 stainless and 2mm wall thickness? On a ~$150 product? :screwy:

Well, no matter. So long as the thing can hold up for a few days' testing, that's all I ask. And I agree about the merge collector. I did that on our twin manifolds for the 2.7T and was really pleased with the end product. Here's what I'm talking about:










That's 42mm OD piping merging into 48mm.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Have you noticed that all these units, no matter who is selling them, cites 321 stainless and 2mm wall thickness? On a ~$150 product? :screwy:
> 
> Well, no matter. So long as the thing can hold up for a few days' testing, that's all I ask. And I agree about the merge collector. I did that on our twin manifolds for the 2.7T and was really pleased with the end product. Here's what I'm talking about:
> 
> ...


narrow angle merge collector ftw :thumbup:
Relentless claim the new V3 is titanium induced 321 stainless..
whether it is or is'nt who knows.. Its definately different to the v2 in construction and weight.

What I have briefly read re 321 Ti induced material, is its properties are only realised after heat treatment, which is'nt applied to the V3 from what I see

time will tell.
Performance is good. Reliability, time will tell

(no misfires on #2 cyl tho - lol)


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

badger5 said:


> ....like my v3 80mm tip which is *lhd friendly*..


Sorry to sidetrack the thread but flow is flow! 

Bill is the v3 friendly as in "will rub against brake lines, but should be ok" or friendly as in "does no come in contact with anything else"?

I bought an APR TIP after giving up on fitting your TIP to my LHD car but if it actually fits properly without the risk of failure due to contact with other components then i'll gladly sell it and move onto yours!

Please let us know, we all need a proper TIP option here in North America. :beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Methinks FT needs to do its own v2 umpkin:


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Methinks FT needs to do its own v2 umpkin:


X2


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

crzygreek said:


> Sorry to sidetrack the thread but flow is flow!
> 
> Bill is the v3 friendly as in "will rub against brake lines, but should be ok" or friendly as in "does no come in contact with anything else"?
> 
> ...


V2.2 billet version rubs quite a lot, too much inho... V3 from feedback received from European lhd customers "touches" but thats all.
V3 is one piece silicon, but same 80mm bore to the taper to turbo, and same internal geometry taper as the billet version.

this is the item in question.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120993864264&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Try one and let me know.. to confirm US LHD fitment


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Methinks FT needs to do its own v2 umpkin:


Well, I was pretty sobered by the inexpensiveness of that Ebay unit. By comparison, the Franken Manni costs nearly double. So any re-design will be with an eye towards getting the price down. And that'd have to be done while retaining a ~280g/s airflow capability.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Well, I was pretty sobered by the inexpensiveness of that Ebay unit. By comparison, the Franken Manni costs nearly double. So any re-design will be with an eye towards getting the price down. And that'd have to be done while retaining a ~280g/s airflow capability.


Doug,

Don’t lured into trying to compete with the PRC in manufacturing a cheap manifold. Something that is a good balance between price, performance and longevity will win out in the end.

You are correct sir in doubting the production of the Relentless with 321SS (Ti) for that price. It may be specified at 321, but highly doubt the material consistency is there, at least at that price. 

The best material out there for high use, high cycle turbo exhausts is an Nb austenite cast steel. Take a look:

http://www.cbmm.com.br/portug/sources/techlib/science_techno/table_content/sub_5/images/pdfs/053.pdf 

Yes, a 321L SS will work quite well and last a while, but in the long, the A3N material will win out. 

But, with good manufacturing, quality materials and ceramic coating inside and out, one could use 321L and build a mani that would last quite a while. Honestly, I don’t know what steel you’re using now, but it looks like it’s holding up well.

I’ve thought about building a manifold that has an interchangeable collector that would allow me to swap from a KKK inlet, to a T25 inlet or to a V-band inlet….just my thought…..yours now.

There is a sweet spot out there between the JBS and the Relentless, but don’t go lowball.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Agreed, considering the other parts Ive/we've bought, $400 for an "end-all be-all" manifold isn't that crazy at all, you can't even get a set of valves for that. Dont worry about an Chinese eBay price, Id buy yours over that one any day


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Atomic Ed said:


> Doug,
> 
> Don’t lured into trying to compete with the PRC in manufacturing a cheap manifold. Something that is a good balance between price, performance and longevity will win out in the end.
> 
> ...


how is a jbs mani in the running when it is supplied in a form which needs customer rework to avoid misfire on cyl 2?
decent casting, flawed collector and runner design

TSR also make a k04 tubular collected manifold.. $$ item but quality made

At what point do you decide enoughs spent on a k04 framed unit, and that same $ could have been put towards a larger frame GT for example..

I find it hard to believe there are alot more folks here in the UK running a relentless k04 mani than I gather are running one in the US. Given its supplied from the US to here and made in CN, along with other peoples products..
What ebay has to do with the quality of products sold on ebay escapes me also. :screwy:


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

badger5 said:


> how is a jbs mani in the running when it is supplied in a form which needs customer rework to avoid misfire on cyl 2?


Materials. You are correct (and have the first hand experience with the JBS, for those that don't know Bager5) in that the JBS is not a mani for someone to just bolt on and run. But given the type of material its made of, it should outlast anything out there now, including OEM. (Barring poor casting.) It's a matter of personal choice, customer rework for a long lasting mani, or easier installation traded for somewhat shorter life.



badger5 said:


> At what point do you decide enoughs spent on a k04 framed unit, and that same $ could have been put towards a larger frame GT for example..


That is the crux of Doug's business decision point. This manifold is not one to be sold in an expanding market. It will fade away over time.

However, there are still states here in the US and a few countries (Sweden?) that require visual inspections and if a manifold is designed to look "stockish", along with a hybird turbo, then visual inspections will be passible. That was the thinking behind the 034 manifold design that crashed and burned due to lack of quality material and control. And we're learning over here in the US what you folks already know, hybirds can be more satisfying than BT for those that crave instant power.

If designed right, it's possible to open up a KKK collector flange area to around 85% of the flange area of a T25. (Another point in favor of the JBS.) It's also why a manifold with interchangeable collectors or flanges would be more appealing and would open up a larger market....maybe

I too may find myself in the position were I'm ready to move onto the BT sandbox, but I believe there is still a nich for a stock-like mani for the F23. But then again, I'm not sinking money into development like Doug.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

badger5 said:


> my full race is 6 years old and going ok.. ceramic coated from the outset however which is part of the success in my mind.
> 
> cast crack too.. just look at stockers... the environment is hot.. lol


Meant to ask you about this Bill, is there any type of brace, or do you think the high-rpm use/boost/heat its seen has affected it differently than a straight-up street driven manifold (as in sure there was heatcycling, but the long periods of constant heating might have increased durability). Another interesting point is the coating, I think it could have helped because of more evenly distributed heat - my idea is that the thermal action placed on the manifold has the effect of making the manifold being "whole" rather than sections and weld that heat/expand differently


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Ah! I blew by an important point. Longivity is really about heat cycling. It's the starting up, heating, and cooling down 3-4 times a day that fatigues the metal. Daily drivers are a lot harder on tubular manifolds than cars like Bill's.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> Ah! I blew by an important point. Longivity is really about heat cycling. It's the starting up, heating, and cooling down 3-4 times a day that fatigues the metal. Daily drivers are a lot harder on tubular manifolds than cars like Bill's.


That's exactly one of the points I've been trying to make! On a track car that see limited daily duty, the welded tubular units may last a decent amount of time. However, real street duty with constant heat cycling usually inflict some serious beating to that type of exhaust manifold (even the best of them from personal experience). 

Another point really brushed off in this discussion is that, by design welded tubular exhaust manifolds tend to be less compact and requiring longer legs to succesfully achieve the tight bends. This results in high flowing units that unfortunately trails in response. When the application in question is such a small frame turbo/hybrid like ours, reducing or numbing transient response is the last thing you want to do. Personally, and I think most K04 and hybrids users will agree, I'd give up a bit of flow to improve on the sucky OEM while retaining the response that characterizes these turbos. So a well rounded unit would be compact with short tubes and improving the flow at collector (Not exactly what is done with the relentless unit). :thumbup:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^ :thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

l88m22vette said:


> Meant to ask you about this Bill, is there any type of brace, or do you think the high-rpm use/boost/heat its seen has affected it differently than a straight-up street driven manifold (as in sure there was heatcycling, but the long periods of constant heating might have increased durability). Another interesting point is the coating, I think it could have helped because of more evenly distributed heat - my idea is that the thermal action placed on the manifold has the effect of making the manifold being "whole" rather than sections and weld that heat/expand differently


mine has been coated from day #1, but thats what I choose to do on all my high end bt builds..
for me, the heat cool cycles is indeed the major stress raiser and ceramic coating keeps the heat inside, so the rapid expansion/contraction, which as we know is already very high on stainless steel anyhow is slowed.. BT is generally lower egt's and larger framed units, but tuning has its part to play. I have had egt sensor on mine for years to keep an eye on it.

I dont support mine I let it move where it wants to go.. I do however have flexi's on external gate and downpipe, and the post flexi exhaust is braced so not to "wag the tail" on the manifold..

so far so good. its been perfect.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> That's exactly one of the points I've been trying to make! On a track car that see limited daily duty, the welded tubular units may last a decent amount of time. However, real street duty with constant heat cycling usually inflict some serious beating to that type of exhaust manifold (even the best of them from personal experience).
> 
> Another point really brushed off in this discussion is that, by design welded tubular exhaust manifolds tend to be less compact and requiring longer legs to succesfully achieve the tight bends. This results in high flowing units that unfortunately trails in response. When the application in question is such a small frame turbo/hybrid like ours, reducing or numbing transient response is the last thing you want to do. Personally, and I think most K04 and hybrids users will agree, I'd give up a bit of flow to improve on the sucky OEM while retaining the response that characterizes these turbos. So a well rounded unit would be compact with short tubes and improving the flow at collector (Not exactly what is done with the relentless unit). :thumbup:



agreed... and why I believe a good quality ceramic coating is going to help.
the full race type manifolds I use are 1.5" pipe, but on smaller framed units 1.25" pipe is more appropriate to reduce the internal manifolds volume.. and preserve transient response as best you can. narrow angle merge collector is a no brainer for me.. and what differentiates top end performance. The relentless is not large bore tubes in the runners, measured the v3 here at 34mm ID tube.

:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> ...measured the v3 here at 34mm ID tube.
> 
> :thumbup:


Bill -- are you sure of that inside dimension? I'd have expected a ~37mm measurement if they're using commonly-available 42mm pipe. What's the outside measurement of their runners?

Here are the published specs for the Ebay unit on order:

_OEM cast manifold direct replacement 
Equal length primaries 
Larger primary pipe Diameter 
Extremely high quality 
Manifold O/D: 42.7mm 
PIPE THICKNESS: 2.0MM_


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Since we're loading this thread down with ideas, another point to bring up is that my guess is the current Frankenturbo manifold would be the easiest to repair weld, asssuming a carbon steel material. Points to Doug's mani if we're keeping score.

(Sorry op. Hopefull your answer is in these posts somewere.)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

badger5 said:


> The relentless is not large bore tubes in the runners, measured the v3 here at 34mm ID tube.


It's not "big" in runner tube ID if using a 34mm ID, but the ID is only half of the story! The length of the runners is the response killer with the relentless. 

To keep things in perspective, a small port head exhaust ID is 33mm (large port is supposedly 36mm). So the 34mm ID is about perfect at retaining the velocity on a small port head. According to forum sources, relentless and JBS use that piping ID while OEM is a bit bigger at the head flange (not sure on the FT unit and maybe Doug can chime in).

So, who's going to come up with a 34mm tube ID manifold - short runners but with respect the motor's firing order - large collector that keeps the pipe ID constant but still uses the convenient divider to direct the pulses to the turbo and not towards another runner ??? 


OEM mani at the top and JBS at the bottom (pics borrowed from Atomic ED)


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill -- are you sure of that inside dimension? I'd have expected a ~37mm measurement if they're using commonly-available 42mm pipe. What's the outside measurement of their runners?
> 
> Here are the published specs for the Ebay unit on order:
> 
> ...


I measured it with my vernier calipers.. Its that dimension ID on the one V3 I have here.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It's not "big" in runner tube ID if using a 34mm ID, but the ID is only half of the story! The length of the runners is the response killer with the relentless.
> 
> To keep things in perspective, a small port head exhaust ID is 33mm (large port is supposedly 36mm). So the 34mm ID is about perfect at retaining the velocity on a small port head. According to forum sources, relentless and JBS use that piping ID while OEM is a bit bigger at the head flange (not sure on the FT unit and maybe Doug can chime in).
> 
> ...



measured it again... to check my sanity (and eyesight) - 34mm ID runners on the relentless, 34.5mm in the exhaust ports of a smallport head here.

I take you point re runner length but in relation to performance its not effecting its characteristics in response terms... You certainly cant feel it slower...
In the rev range that it becomes more effective is the mid to higher rpms, same as other tubular collected manifolds.. Remember the ancient post comparison of log vs tubular, where log got going sooner, but tubular collected made much more top end.... Similar kind thing..
Relentless keeping the tube Id to the port size's is a more appropriate size than a larger one for example.
The k04 packaging location does not lend itself to a merge collected, short runner manifold..

There was a spiderworx manifold which I cant now find on the web (their website is broken)
It looked interesting and was merge collected of a fashion...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

throwing some other k04 manifold incarnations out there in case it inspires someone..
Spiderworx


















HP Performance


















TSR


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

the source : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...-made-custom-exhaust-k04-manifold-turkey.html

That 2-3 merger need some work i guess , great work done


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Ed at FFE had shown me this one a while back. I got the sense he liked the concept.











I, too, like it for its simplicity and unobtrusiveness. I wonder what became of that company. Out of business now? Their website is down anyway.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... a small port head exhaust ID is 33mm (large port is supposedly 36mm).


that's correct. AEB heads have 36mm exhaust ports. That's why I consider 37mm to be a minimum ID for the runners.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

I sent Ed the picture months ago and asked if it could be made...
never heard back... presumed "too busy" 

Its simple looking.. but of the ones I see I like it.
access to fixings to turbo look straight forward too, which is'nt something I can say about a relentless style mani


I will throw my attempt in... just for the crack. 1.5" sch10 fittings on the larger pipe and 1.25" on the header runners... 










Pro's: it fitted perfectly with access to everything without special spanners etc etc etc
Con's: it fugly


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Bill

i can't remember what kind of turbo you fitted that manifold to. Was it a hybrid?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> I sent Ed the picture months ago and asked if it could be made...
> never heard back... presumed "too busy"
> 
> Its simple looking.. but of the ones I see I like it.
> ...


Not bad at all Bill! :thumbup:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

yall have something good going on in here :beer: I see tons of great information and nice different manifold designs. opcorn: :beer:


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

*PPT turbo exhaust manifold + FrankenTurbo K04-XX = might be a solution.*

If I may share a thought I'm having for the past few of days and sure enough that others might already thought about it too :

Would it be more feasible and practical if the only proven 1.8t turbo V-band Cast-manifold (IMHO) made by our beloved and respected [email protected] to be matched with Frankenturbo's  either as separate purchased items or as a special Frankenturbo upgrade Package offer . simple solution to this problematic bottle-necked exhaust manifold .

With [email protected] expertise in turbo development would be highly appreciated and Frankenturbo R&D = widen the market for both vendors.

if they allow discussing the offered idea in relation to the 1.8t engine that still dominate F2 racing 

I'm only expressing personal idea I kept thinking about and to each mentioned person their own decisions regarding what mentioned . I always wish them all prosperity in their ever growing business .

:heart::beer:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

PPT V-band + Frankenturbo = :heart:

Good idea :beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Great Idea but I think it would cost too much..


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Al and Pag Parts are terrific. They make amazing stuff. But let's allow Ed at FFE take a crack at this first. He's no slouch.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Al and Pag Parts are terrific. They make amazing stuff. But let's allow Ed at FFE take a crack at this first. He's no slouch.


Not at all!:thumbup:


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

ModsTTand said:


> ...Would it be more feasible and practical if the only proven 1.8t turbo V-band Cast-manifold ....to be matched with Frankenturbo's either as separate purchased items or as a special Frankenturbo upgrade Package offer


This goes back to my concept of an interchangable collector or flange that would allow adaptation to the various hotside inlets. My guess is people would pay a little more for a manifold that they didn't have to dump just because they decided to move up to a different inlet type on the hot side.

One quality manifold for many applications!


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Al and Pag Parts are terrific. They make amazing stuff. But let's allow Ed at FFE take a crack at this first. He's no slouch.


You're right Doug - FFE has been working with you faithfully throughout all your testing and development :thumbup:



Atomic Ed said:


> This goes back to my concept of an interchangable collector or flange that would allow adaptation to the various hotside inlets. My guess is people would pay a little more for a manifold that they didn't have to dump just because they decided to move up to a different inlet type on the hot side.
> 
> One quality manifold for many applications!


That's exactly it - looking forward to seeing what Doug and Ed come up with!


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

have any of you seen the manifold I made?

















i welded on a flange to make an earlier PPT manifold vband.

you could do this with any manifold..


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^ looks good :beer: I need to invest in a tig welder


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

speed51133! said:


> have any of you seen the manifold I made?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice job! I just gotta get one of my buddies to teach me to weld.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

cast iron welding is a little different than normal, but without rushing, and preheating/postheating, with the correct filler, is not really any harder. 

you just have to know what to do. doing it is the same as any welding job.

Tial's vband size is VERY close to the t25 rectangular opening. With very minimal porting it matches up perfectly.

i also welded on the flange because bolts were backing off and causing to burn through gaskets.
I bought expensive thread lock rated at 2000F and they still backed off. even made custom gaskets out of special material made out of stainless and graphite sandwiched in there. 

welding has been the solution that i am very happy with.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

speed51133! said:


> Tial's vband size is VERY close to the t25 rectangular opening. With very minimal porting it matches up perfectly.


And I've found that a KKK flange is somewhat close to a t25 flange opening. This is where my idea of changeable flanges came about.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

you could probably manufacture a cast manifold to your desires and just weld on an assortment of flanges that the buyer wants???

i think it would work. would the demand justify it though? Thats for business owners to decide.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

speed51133! said:


> you could probably manufacture a cast manifold to your desires and just weld on an assortment of flanges that the buyer wants???
> 
> i think it would work. would the demand justify it though? Thats for business owners to decide.


Nice work on the manifold! 

The problem is with the k04-02X frame turbo fitment, that is so far off-centered on the runners (mainly to allow a DP to snake out of the quattro's limited real estate) that an existing BT cast manifold like yours wouldn't work for the surgery. Something would have to be casted from scratch to work on the k04/hybrids that we're discussing, or an entirely custom downpipe would have to be made. :beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

speed51133! said:


> i welded on a flange to make an earlier PPT manifold vband.
> 
> 
> > That's especially awesome since I have one of those in the closet and want to used a Tial housing, thanks for the inspiration :thumbup:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

if you want me to weld it for you or step by step instructions...let me know.

tial flange was like 30, t25 steel flange like 10. the welding rods were like 30 ( still have a bunch).

all u need is a bbq grill, tig welder, and the rods.

i also cut the expansion joints with a CHOP SAW! Band saw would be better, and a thinner cut, but i did not want to drive to my buddy's


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*CX racing equal length K04 manifold*

The Ebay manifold came. For the sake of simplicity I'll call this the CXRacing manifold. Here it is:




















And here it is facing off with the Franken Manni:











So it's got the upper hand as far as looks go. It's shiny! And bigger too. So let's give these bad boys a weigh in:


CXRacing











Franken











So they're both about 7.5 pounds. Curious, since the CXRacing unit has considerably more piping. Here's one reason why:











Flange thicknesses are plenty different. And you can also see that the runners' dimensions differ. The Franken uses 42mm OD mild steel. What's the CXRacing unit sporting?

At the runners:










Downstream of the collector:











The piping on the CXRacing unit is one size down. Hmmm. That's a little disappointing but certainly not a surprise. How does this impact the INSIDE dimensions? 











The CXRacing unit is 33mm on the runners' interiors. Slightly smaller than those in the Franken, but a stock 1.8T head has 33mm exhaust ports. So this seems acceptable. But what about those (like the FrankenTT) who are running 36mm-port AEB heads? Well, the openings at the flange are actually bigger, with an eased edge down to the 33mm dimension:











The outlet side is a little less elegant, but smooth transitions at the exit point are going to be less critical:











All in all, the CXRacing unit seems worth the


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

doug....be forewarned....

i ordered that manifold a year ago. i sent it back because it was warped BAD.
the head flange was so warped that decking it flat would leave nothing left on the ends of the head flange....

seemed like when they welded the inner runners it is not bolted up, and warps...
i was gonna weld on a tial flange to that ebay manifold, but it was just junk (because of warping)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Good comparison Doug!

I haven't seen the V3 yet, but I'll take the Franken manifold any day over this version. This one makes your manifold look overengineered and overbuilt.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*V3 for comparison.. one I have here*

Here's a V3 I have been sent.. for comparisons..
my observations of what you have got Doug vs this one:-
Welding looks better on the V3 here..
tubes are push thru head flange not welded ID like yours
some braces on collector
internal welding finishing on collector better on V3
head flange is flat on this one (still need some grind on top edge to sit onto head square) - its 11.6mm thick


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

speed51133! said:


> doug....be forewarned....
> 
> i ordered that manifold a year ago. i sent it back because it was warped BAD.
> the head flange was so warped that decking it flat would leave nothing left on the ends of the head flange....
> ...


I guess whats being sold off are the previous versions... 
V1 and some V2 had random warped flanges... but this should'nt be on current ones
(inconsistencies seems to be a theme... Same manifold sold by many folks? Same origins? - Wonder how many people they have making these and if person (a) is making exactly the same thing as persons (b) (c) (d) etc....

As for its capability for airflows... vs your log mani, not that I am doing a vs here.... but you have.. There's a uk guy who chopped off the KKK outlet flange and welded on a T25 and bolted a GT2860 sized turbo, ran 360bhp (UK bhp) relative to normal K04 hybrids which top out at 330-340bhp max'd.... 280g/s would seem supportable. I would expect a merge collected manifold for sustain high end rpm flow better than a non "merge collector" type manifold where cylinder gases fire at each other.

I have a manifold here I will be converting to T25 flange to do the same thing with. Should be interesting to see how it copes.


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Al and Pag Parts are terrific. They make amazing stuff. But let's allow Ed at FFE take a crack at this first. He's no slouch.


Ed built his name same way he fabricates his outstanding product .:thumbup:

Doug & Badger5 : thanks for measuring those two different manifolds  

Atomic Ed : ur concept is the ultimate manifold with interchangeable flange would be the solution :thumbup:

speed51133! : Thank you for sharing ur fabrication and would love to know more how to to it/DIY maybe


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

V3 looks much better.:thumbup: I'd still go for the FT mani over the v3. Stainless manifolds never last on my whips even with extra bracing. I've never just had a dedicated track car so the manifolds tend to take some daily abuse.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

This was just posted in the TT forum as somebody's first post. Most likely the manufacturer making an attempt to throw themselves in the mix with all the manifold talk lately. Anyway, I thought I'd share as it looks like a decently well made tubular unit for those that want to run one (not much traffic jam in the merge design, but over $1000 in pricing).




* Dark Star * said:


> Iv been checking out high flow manifolds for quite a while for the
> k04 unit and this JBS manifold just seems sub par
> 
> for a good reliable high flowing manifold is going to cost !
> ...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

same TSR mani as in post #65


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> There's a uk guy who chopped off the KKK outlet flange and welded on a T25 and bolted a GT2860 sized turbo, ran 360bhp (UK bhp) relative to normal K04 hybrids which top out at 330-340bhp max'd.... 280g/s would seem supportable.


Bill -- can you clarify: was that 280g/s using a modded CXRacing type manifold?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill -- can you clarify: was that 280g/s using a modded CXRacing type manifold?


yea.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> yea.


I'm sold! The FrankenTT gets something pretty and shiny next week.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

That manifold must weigh a ton!!! Plus give off buttloads of heat. 
Id brace it.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

speed51133! said:


> That manifold must weigh a ton!!! Plus give off buttloads of heat.
> Id brace it.


on the ones fitted in the UK, we reuse the std k04 support bracket as its bendy enough to moev with the mani but supports the turbo weight.

heatshield the bejesus out of anything within sight, particularly the turbo outlet pipe..

it glows well.

http://s1028.photobucket.com/albums...-8875-3372EC1794D6-960-00000147B3650178-1.mp4






and std k04 being given some ****


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

This manifold is the pants. I hate that glowey business. Hopefully it at least flows well.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

:thumbup: opcorn:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Notice this KRB manifold that's on their 1061 bhp Audi - they've overlapped the runners a little near the turbo…


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> This manifold is the pants. I hate that glowey business. Hopefully it at least flows well.


spray it with your grey ceramic if you dont like the glow.... lol
yours will be glowing under your coating...

800'c makes for glow on metals...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Bill

I have a request: can you please post any/all data you have on the flow characteristics of the INTAKE manifolds you've tested? I want to see how much divergence there is in flow to the separate runners. Do you have that info?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

blimey... thats testing done uber long time ago...
several pc's later.. Its not in one place I know..


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Dropped by FFE Racing last night so Ed could take a look at the CX Racing manifold. To my surprise he liked it. But then we set about trying to find a head to which it'd fit.











....and trying...











...and trying...




















We arrived at the conclusion that the head flange is a botch: so warped that the manifold can't be installed without repairing it. Ed seemed fine with sourcing from his supply of beautifully-machined (ahem, American-made) stainless flanges. Fabian and I felt it seemed a bit like that proverb about the sow's ear and silken purse. But we left it in Ed's hands to decide whether to rescue the CX Racing one... or move ahead on designing something of his own.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

:facepalm: cxracing... the head flange should is like the foundation of your house... it's the 1st thing you have to get right, in order to keep building. maybe things don't work that way in china :laugh: :screwy:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

like i said....i experienced the same thing.....


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

What a joke!


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

When I installed one many moons ago it needed some massaging of one of the runners to fit. The next issue was turbo to manifold studs not staying tight. The third issue was it cracking. I will admit I was trying to source an OEM turbo brace but never found one.


----------



## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Eh, for what Doug is using this manifold for, it'll do. I have faith in Doug's ability to understand this isn't what we want.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I'm all for testing! I just wanted to throw in my experience with the first model.


----------



## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

spartiati said:


> I'm all for testing! I just wanted to throw in my experience with the first model.


Wasn't poking you specifically with a stick, just a general comment


----------



## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

spartiati said:


> I will admit I was trying to source an OEM turbo brace but never found one.


I just went to the dealer for mine. It was around $50. Worth the peace of mind:thumbup:


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Atomic Ed said:


> Wasn't poking you specifically with a stick, just a general comment


Thems fighting words! Haha.


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

this is the old version..... superceeded remember..
seems to me its an even older version than what we saw as a v2, as the v1 had these issues you see now, but not on later v2 etc

sux they can even make a flange drilled correctly on the early ones.

I can only guess this is old stock being cleared out..


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

badger5 said:


> this is the old version..... superceeded remember..
> seems to me its an even older version than what we saw as a v2, as the v1 had these issues you see now, but not on later v2 etc
> 
> sux they can even make a flange drilled correctly on the early ones.
> ...


Honestly Bill, it's hard to make a case for a V3 of that garbage... especially when nobody is guaranteed to get the said V3, and coming from a company that knowingly sold unusable products not long ago!

To me this is as bad as giving money to JBS! :thumbdown:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Honestly Bill, it's hard to make a case for a V3 of that garbage... especially when nobody is guaranteed to get the said V3, and coming from a company that knowingly sold unusable products not long ago!
> 
> To me this is as bad as giving money to JBS! :thumbdown:


Relentless is a Us company.. so whats the issue with sourcing a V3 from them directly? Its clearly available and being supplied from Relentless to plenty of guys here in the UK..

The point being, which seems to be missed here is V3 is the current, latest and what I am told is the final version. what doug has bought and other sellers seem to be selling can only be old stock, if V3 is the latest and current version, presuming V2 has been made obsolete, which I dont know..

I can comment on the versions I have seen go thru here and its evolution as a product. It has evolved, but there's no denying the mystakes along the way are often laughable and cringeworthy. They, unlike jbs, have listened and improved what was a totally flawed product into something which works now. Longevity remains my only question, and time will tell...

:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> Relentless is a Us company..


Bill -- can you get me info on them? If "Relentless" really exists and is the actual importer, I'd prefer to deal with them over XS-Power (aka SSAutoChrome).


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Bill -- can you get me info on them? If "Relentless" really exists and is the actual importer, I'd prefer to deal with them over XS-Power (aka SSAutoChrome).


Here you go Doug, FB link : http://www.facebook.com/groups/125246960928520/

looking forward for the correct V3 to arrive from Samuel [email protected] Tuning .

more info : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/131003-xs-power-downpipes-manifolds.html

hope I added some useful info.

best of luck


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Sam's in the UK. I'm looking for the US-based source from whom he (likely) is buying.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

I'll ask Sam to contact you Doug.
:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I think that's for the best. If I'm going to test a "Relentless" manifold, let's get it from that actual party.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I think that's for the best. If I'm going to test a "Relentless" manifold, let's get it from that actual party.


 In for results opcorn:


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## Relentless. (Oct 30, 2012)

Hello all, sam from relentless here. i thought it was about time i showed my face around here :wave:
firstly i would like to clear one thing up, the manifold that Doug has is NOT a relentless manifold, its a copy of our first version that we stopped production a few years ago. 
now i know alot of you are aware we have a new v3 k04 manifold.
the basic updates are
321 stainless steel 2.5mm(titanium induced) yes for real 
cast stainless steel flanges.
support braces to reduced stress
back purged welds and filler rod used.
stronger weld material.
better fit and oem heat shield can be kept.

the v3 manifold was made with mine and bills Badger 5 input, our specification in order to make sure its the best it can be. 
yes we question how long it will last, well many in the uk have been sold by myself and im happy to report not one failure has been reported, first test manifolds went out a few months before the official release. 

this v3 is far superior to the v1 and v2. 

here are a few photos taken just to show the quality and fit of the v3 manifold.
enjoy

































































thanks for reading
sam


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Relentless. said:


> Hello all, sam from relentless here. i thought it was about time i showed my face around here :wave:
> firstly i would like to clear one thing up, the manifold that Doug has is NOT a relentless manifold, its a copy of our first version that we stopped production a few years ago.
> now i know alot of you are aware we have a new v3 k04 manifold.
> the basic updates are
> ...


 Here you are ...on behalf of majority of our beloved dedicated 1.8T members I welcome you SAM  great to have u among us.

please update us with ur latest products (exhaust manifold + downpipe) 

looking forward for more of ur awaited contribution


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## Relentless. (Oct 30, 2012)

Thank you for making me feel welcome. I don't want to go off topic here but we also have a v3 downpipe with a uprated 200cell sports cat. Again Same construction as the manifold.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Let's get some more details on this thing:



can it be installed with the head on the motor / motor in the bay?
What is the ID of the runners? Of the collector? Of the outlet to turbo?
Have you or Bill done a back-to-back test of this versus the stock S3 (TT225) unit?
What experience do you have with this being modified to accomodate a different turbo flange, e.g. a T-25 fitment? What is the highest-capacity turbo fitted to it? What is the highest displacement engine?


Regardless of these answers, I plan to purchase and fit one of these to the FrankenTT. But not until I restore a stock manifold to the engine for proper baselining. That's being done this week, so Sam, you need to brace for me to exhort: "Let's Do This!"


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Let's get some more details on this thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll put my 2p on this:
Firstly I am not in any way associated with Relentless... I am very much independant.
I have however seen its evolution and given my input to its inadequacies from its dire V1 incarnation when welly was using one and working with XS/Relentless @ the time on improving it... and props goes to him for the early improvements.. Sam has inherited this and continued working with Relentless and feeding back info received from me and others on what they need to do to turn it from a POS joke of a thing, to a product which has merit.. and its come a long way.

Relentless have listened. V3 being the final item now. V1's performance could not be ignored. It was born out of early work I got involved with on a k04 hybrid turbo on wellys S3.... It had stock mani, then the ill fated 034 larger bore k04 mani which only lasted a matter of days before cracking spectacularly, then the V1 relentless... which fitted like a pos... ie did'nt fit at all without reworking a lot, but when made "fitable" went on to make good power. V2 evolved out of the fitment quality issues seen on V1, and V3 evolved further out of that into different weld construction, material etc. Downpipe and cat were also evolved (read fixed!) along the way too and fitment issues were designed out.



can it be installed with the head on the motor / motor in the bay? - I dont personally, I remove the head and prefit as much as possible on first then drop the head on. I find it faster and access is a whole lot easier. Quattro's in particular suk space wise. Others have fitted it head on.
What is the ID of the runners? Of the collector? Of the outlet to turbo? - same as the pictures I posted earlier in this thread doug. Its a V3 I have here which I took pictures of.
Have you or Bill done a back-to-back test of this versus the stock S3 (TT225) unit? - In performance terms, flow performance terms, compared to the early V1 incarnation, its the same... Only material, and construction changes made to lift its quality and remove the earlier daft error's made in their manufacture. Over and above the stock K04 man, on a hybrid we saw 30bhp over the stock mani for same boost (wellys S3)
What experience do you have with this being modified to accomodate a different turbo flange, e.g. a T-25 fitment? What is the highest-capacity turbo fitted to it? What is the highest displacement engine? - work in progress here by me on Sams next incarnation which I have reflanged T25 and will have a gt2871 (chinese) turbo fitted. There is another in the UK I have seen on FB which has similar mod/turbo which has run 360bhp I believe. I dont have full details on it, as its not been here. Sams will be here so we will see what gives.


replied

pictures of dims I measured on the v3 here below


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

The question is HOW do we go about getting the V3, both the Mani and the Down pipe? I dont think Doug ordered the V1 on purpose yet he got stuck with it. I was looking at the Down pipe to replace the adapter set up from Doug and my current DP constanly hits the steering rack. I have BFI mounts so the motor doesnt move much so I need something better fitting. But I sure dont want V1 issues.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

GTIRACER2.0t said:


> The question is HOW do we go about getting the V3, both the Mani and the Down pipe? I dont think Doug ordered the V1 on purpose yet he got stuck with it. I was looking at the Down pipe to replace the adapter set up from Doug and my current DP constanly hits the steering rack. I have BFI mounts so the motor doesnt move much so I need something better fitting. But I sure dont want V1 issues.


Dude relentless just said Doug's manifold WAS NOT a relentless...
It was a knock off. I'd say ensure you have the pictured relentless Id tags welded on the parts and demand they are there from the seller in pics and when you get it.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

GTIRACER2.0t said:


> The question is HOW do we go about getting the V3, both the Mani and the Down pipe? I dont think Doug ordered the V1 on purpose yet he got stuck with it. I was looking at the Down pipe to replace the adapter set up from Doug and my current DP constanly hits the steering rack. I have BFI mounts so the motor doesnt move much so I need something better fitting. But I sure dont want V1 issues.


you will find samb here> http://www.facebook.com/groups/125246960928520/


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Relentless Tuning has an easily identifiable representative in the UK: Sam Bryant. He can be contacted via "social media" (whatever that is...something called FaceBook) or on the audi-sport.net website. Over here Stateside, they could improve their sales presence. I'll encourage Rich there to figure out how to do that. For now, the "real McCoy" manifold is marketed to US-customers as linked on the 1st page of this thread.

http://xs-power.com/audi-turbo-manifolds-6.htm


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

quick non mani related question..
does your F23 downpipe adaptor replicate exactly the flange location of the k03 transverse install downpipes? So an existing 3" K03s fitment downpipe would bolt onto the adaptor pipe in identical location?
thx


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Its supposed to, however, users have reported Steering rack clearance issues, especially with stiffer mounts. Personally, I needed to modify my K03s DP to bolt right up (it was kinda far off). I was told that this happens when NOT using Dougs mani.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Rich at Relentless has supplied me with a genuine V3 to test. As Badger5's pictures show, it is a much better product than the Ebay knockoff I'd bought earlier. Tomorrow I hope to dry-fit it to one of FFE's numerous spare heads.


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Rich at Relentless has supplied me with a genuine V3 to test. As Badger5's pictures show, it is a much better product than the Ebay knockoff I'd bought earlier. Tomorrow I hope to dry-fit it to one of FFE's numerous spare heads.


Doug do you think it will fit with out pulling the motor?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

GTIRACER2.0t said:


> Doug do you think it will fit with out pulling the motor?


The heads probably gonna have to come off.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

GTIRACER2.0t said:


> Doug do you think it will fit with out pulling the motor?


^2. The head will be coming off the car. Why mess with trying it any other way..?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Relentless V3 manifold has arrived. FFE supplied a spare head for a quick dry-fit.




















Everything lines up as it should, so it's a Go for installing it after baselining the stock manifold.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Can't wait to see the results!


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I know you had mentioned a T25 flange...that with an EFR could be amazing...umpkin: The manifold looks really good Doug, it must be that much better in person (rather than seeing through the internet).


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Moar awesome :thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

l88m22vette said:


> I know you had mentioned a T25 flange...that with an EFR could be amazing...umpkin: The manifold looks really good Doug, it must be that much better in person (rather than seeing through the internet).


wot, like this one you mean


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

badger5 said:


> wot, like this one you mean


This is getting close to my concept of a mani with an interchangeable flange. The ultimate would be a flange setup that would allow the reuse of the downpipe when movingup to a 28 series turbo. I suspect the downpipe reuse really isn't feasable due to the different sizing of the 28 series turbos verses the K04 turbos, but it's still a concept.

Even still, this is very close. One could start off with a K04 setup with this maini and simply whack off the k04 flange and weld on a T25 flange, like Bill has done. Another mod to your downpipe and you're done! 

I'm warming up to this manifold, but I'm still not convinced that longivity is there on a real daily driver. I'm thinking the weight difference between the two turbo styles will also affect longivity. 

Let us know how it works out.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

On my end, the FrankenTT has now been fitted with an OEM K04 manifold, with porting services provided by spartiati using the FFE workshop.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

opcorn:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> On my end, the FrankenTT has now been fitted with an OEM K04 manifold, with porting services provided by spartiati using the FFE workshop.


Now we're talking, almost gave up on this thread when it turned into a relentless infomercial!

Gasket port the flange and send it out for a round of extrude honing and you got yourself an all around performer without giving away longevity and spool (that's the route I'm taking myself). :thumbup:


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> ^2. The head will be coming off the car. Why mess with trying it any other way..?


Mainly because if your customers want to run this set up with your turbo, they may not want to pull the head to do it. 

That being said, I asked that not knowing you were pulling the head already. 

I love following it though. Now if I can figure out the boost issue ill be happy:thumbup:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Atomic Ed said:


> I'm thinking the weight difference between the two turbo styles will also affect longivity.


Couldn't you mitigate that problem by building a small support brace for the turbo that braces it against the block? I have a brace for my GT2871 that APR sold me. It's really simple. It just attaches to the hotside and replaces one of the stock CHRA clamp plates. Then triangulates itself against the block and bolts up with like two M8 bolt and washer sets. Made from some ~1/8" stainless steel stock that was cut and bent properly.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> Couldn't you mitigate that problem by building a small support brace for the turbo that braces it against the block? I have a brace for my GT2871 that APR sold me. It's really simple. It just attaches to the hotside and replaces one of the stock CHRA clamp plates. Then triangulates itself against the block and bolts up with like two M8 bolt and washer sets. Made from some ~1/8" stainless steel stock that was cut and bent properly.


Manifold/turbo bracing is a tricky business! Expansion happen in several axis, so rigidly bracing and restricting any of those axis just move the stress elsewhere (and something unfortunately gotta give). I think Bill touched on this before, where the supports needed to allow some movement in certain directions to be ideal. On beefy cast manifold you may get away with rigid bracing, but on much weaker welded tubular designs, it's asking for trouble IMO. :beer:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

groggory said:


> Couldn't you mitigate that problem by building a small support brace for the turbo that braces it against the block? I have a brace for my GT2871 that APR sold me. It's really simple. It just attaches to the hotside and replaces one of the stock CHRA clamp plates. Then triangulates itself against the block and bolts up with like two M8 bolt and washer sets. Made from some ~1/8" stainless steel stock that was cut and bent properly.


This is a great idea, especially if you don't run into clearance issues with the tubular runners. May I ask why you made a support brace for that nice and strong APR log mani? The 2871 can't weigh that much more than a 2860, can it?


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

groggory said:


> Couldn't you mitigate that problem by building a small support brace for the turbo that braces it against the block? I have a brace for my GT2871 that APR sold me. It's really simple. It just attaches to the hotside and replaces one of the stock CHRA clamp plates. Then triangulates itself against the block and bolts up with like two M8 bolt and washer sets. Made from some ~1/8" stainless steel stock that was cut and bent properly.


It should help some, but my question on fixed bracing is, on which axis is the thermal expansion/contraction the greatest? ATP may have figured that out for their setup, but each mani setup would be unique. By bracing the manifold, you could wind up binding the expansion and accelerating the cracking with a bolted down support. In nuclear power plants, the piping is supported by saddles, springs and shock absorbers (mainly for seismic, but thermal issues also) to reduce binding and allow for expansion and contraction.

The real culprit is the intrinsic, intergranular, shrinkage that happens with high heat cycling and quick cool downs, like our manifolds. The 321 SS used in this mani is better than most, but won’t hold up as well as some other materials.

So back to my opinion; could this manifold hold up for a few years? Yea it’s possible, but the more it’s cycled, the faster it will form micro cracks. If I were to go in this direction with a tubular manifold, I would have it ceramic coated inside and out to keep the heat distribution as even as I can. I would even think about cryo treating it first to reduce manufacturing stresses and to relieve pre-formed micro cracks.

I'm sticking with my cast manifold for now.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Manifold/turbo bracing is a tricky business! Expansion happen in several axis, so rigidly bracing and restricting any of those axis just move the stress elsewhere (and something unfortunately gotta give). I think Bill touched on this before, where the supports needed to allow some movement in certain directions to be ideal. On beefy cast manifold you may get away with rigid bracing, but on much weaker welded tubular designs, it's asking for trouble IMO. :beer:


So, not only is your TT faster than mine, you can type faster too!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

suffocatemymind said:


> This is a great idea, especially if you don't run into clearance issues with the tubular runners. May I ask why you made a support brace for that nice and strong APR log mani? The 2871 can't weigh that much more than a 2860, can it?


A problem that APR had with their manifolds for a long time was that the stainless studs would expand and contract at different rates than the Inconel manifolds. This caused studs to work their way out or otherwise go bad. At one point, APR started silently including this brace as standard on their stage 3 kits.

When I began having problems with my kit they mentioned having the brace and I jumped on it. I didn't know if it was necessary or not, but it seemed like a good idea to me.

...

As to the other comments regarding the trickiness of bracing, I totally agree. To properly brace you should know the true dynamics of your entire system...then brace per those dynamics. This involves testing, R&D, and real engineer work. Most companies just want to fab up a few posts, some pieces of metal, maybe a spherical bearing, and call it a day. Awesome looking setups...just not truly engineered.

Oh the woes of awesome looking tubular mani's.


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> On my end, the FrankenTT has now been fitted with an OEM K04 manifold, with porting services provided by spartiati using the FFE workshop.


 Looks similar to my porting job.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

tedgram said:


> Looks similar to my porting job.


My original one I had port matched and went to town on it. 

On Doug's I kept the stock diameter outlet (as per his instructions) and cleaned up the collector as much as possible.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Went out for a pull on the newly-installed manifold. After 10 seconds or so of part throttle, the brand-new, custom assembled FX400 fell apart. It sounds like someone scooped a shovel-full of gravel into the transmission case. Disgusting. If I see anything from the logs captured in that brief timeframe of use on the car, I'll post it.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the clutch...


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Sooo happy about the EFR Bill! Sooo sad about your stupid clutch Doug :facepalm:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Atomic Ed said:


> This is getting close to my concept of a mani with an interchangeable flange. The ultimate would be a flange setup that would allow the reuse of the downpipe when movingup to a 28 series turbo. I suspect the downpipe reuse really isn't feasable due to the different sizing of the 28 series turbos verses the K04 turbos, but it's still a concept.
> 
> Even still, this is very close. One could start off with a K04 setup with this maini and simply whack off the k04 flange and weld on a T25 flange, like Bill has done. Another mod to your downpipe and you're done!
> 
> ...



support bracket is mandatory on this and K04 imhop... Modify a stock K04 one if needs be. Way too heavy to hang off the v3 mani inho..


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Now we're talking, almost gave up on this thread when it turned into a relentless infomercial!
> 
> Gasket port the flange and send it out for a round of extrude honing and you got yourself an all around performer without giving away longevity and spool (that's the route I'm taking myself). :thumbup:


no it wont... you worry about longevity, and I see majority of K04 exhaust manifolds are cracked.
extrude hone make it thinner... wont make it more reliable.. Been there, Abandoned that...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

groggory said:


> A problem that APR had with their manifolds for a long time was that the stainless studs would expand and contract at different rates than the Inconel manifolds. This caused studs to work their way out or otherwise go bad. At one point, APR started silently including this brace as standard on their stage 3 kits.
> 
> When I began having problems with my kit they mentioned having the brace and I jumped on it. I didn't know if it was necessary or not, but it seemed like a good idea to me.
> 
> ...


thin wall tubular.. needs some assistance to hold the weight.. Imagine when its all glowing yellow, soft, and sagging... Thats what I magine anyhows, lol.. The stock k04 factory support is'nt a bad part.. its supporting but still springy so not uber rigid, so would hopefully still support whilst the manifold wonders around during expansion. I would be happier seeing a support on a relentless. I dont run one on my full-race, but do support my downpipe post flexi's so it does'nt wag the dog so to speak. Been 100% reliable thus far. Not a daily, but a racecar & its ceramic coated..


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Went out for a pull on the newly-installed manifold. After 10 seconds or so of part throttle, the brand-new, custom assembled FX400 fell apart. It sounds like someone scooped a shovel-full of gravel into the transmission case. Disgusting. If I see anything from the logs captured in that brief timeframe of use on the car, I'll post it.


oh ****.. bummer doug.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

badger5 said:


> no it wont... you worry about longevity, and I see majority of K04 exhaust manifolds are cracked.
> extrude hone make it thinner... wont make it more reliable.. Been there, Abandoned that...


Thanks for the heads up, but I'll take my chances with a modified cast over any tubular (maybe I just need to get over how JBS handled their shenanigans). I'm sure I've stated before, although on the EVO platform, but I've had it with dumping money on cracking tubulars. Maybe I abuse components too much for them to be suitable... but I'd rather run a bone stock unit before going down a road that I already know the outcome. :beer:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Went out for a pull on the newly-installed manifold. After 10 seconds or so of part throttle, the brand-new, custom assembled FX400 fell apart. It sounds like someone scooped a shovel-full of gravel into the transmission case. Disgusting. If I see anything from the logs captured in that brief timeframe of use on the car, I'll post it.


Damn... Don't you hate it when expensive "quality" part fail like that :banghead:



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thanks for the heads up, but I'll take my chances with a modified cast over any tubular (maybe I just need to get over how JBS handled their shenanigans). I'm sure I've stated before, although on the EVO platform, but I've had it with dumping money on cracking tubulars. Maybe I abuse components too much for them to be suitable... but I'd rather run a bone stock unit before going down a road that I already know the outcome. :beer:


:thumbup:opcorn:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Could a good brace include something like an Ingalls Stiffy engine dampener cylinder? Its adjustable, heavy duty, already incorporates the helm joints needed, and seems like it would accommodate expansion perfectly. Only issue I can think of is heat, but a length of foil insulation sleeve would be perfect :thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thanks for the heads up, but I'll take my chances with a modified cast over any tubular (maybe I just need to get over how JBS handled their shenanigans). I'm sure I've stated before, although on the EVO platform, but I've had it with dumping money on cracking tubulars. Maybe I abuse components too much for them to be suitable... but I'd rather run a bone stock unit before going down a road that I already know the outcome. :beer:


The stock mani's crack... how that could be a basis for making thinner from extrude honing escapes me... which is why I chose not to pursue it a few years ago.

You dont have many choices for k04 mani's, let alone ones which flow more.

live with it.. The environment they work in, especially when tuned to hell, will result in cracking.. turbos are'nt exempt from this either as you know. 

Racing consumes parts, end of.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

badger5 said:


> The stock mani's crack... how that could be a basis for making thinner from extrude honing escapes me... which is why I chose not to pursue it a few years ago.
> 
> You dont have many choices for k04 mani's, let alone ones which flow more.
> 
> ...


... but the solution you're proposing is a proven weaker design (much thinner wall, and a collection of short tubes welded to a flange)! Someone wake me up if I'm dreaming, but I fail to see how shaving some material off a good cast core would make it weaker than a welded tubular one. As I said, my plan isn't limited to an OEM unit as a blank, a *cast* unit is what I will start with, so JBS isn't out of the picture (although I'd hate to give them my business). I am not trying to push a product here, but can't help telling it how I see it.

As far as the stock units cracking, I'd say that it has happened but definitely not a trend. Countless of examples are still going strong after 100k miles. Mine for example is in good shape after 11 years, and as you put it, "tuned to hell". The collector area in mine is already massaged in the same fashion as Doug's (still hasn't cracked after 3 racing seasons ???). What I'll do is extrude hone it to further improve the tapering in areas that aren't easily reachable... and if that fails I'll simply reload on a JBS unit. I welcome and truthfully respect your knowledge and inputs, but nobody is convincing me that a cast turbo mani has less structural integrity than a tubular one (extrude honing and all). Plus I already went through it in the EVO forum, I wish that thread wasn't blackholed because it had the kind of data and real life testing that our community often lacks.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

I have gone through two stock manifolds and was on my third when I bought the JBS, all OEM manis had cracks, but the last one was holding out after ceramic coating inside and out. Like Bill said, there isn't a clear choice at the moment, they all crack.

Hell, I can't even say the JBS is going to work out until I spend some time with it.

But what I think Doug is setting up to do will be interesting. If I read between the lines, It looks like he is getting ready to do a back-back-back on the Relentless, ported OEM, and his own Frankenturbo mani.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Hopefully the FFE guys can pull that mani without pulling the head if they are going to do some back to back comparisons. Pulling the head to install a mani will not be desirable to most as others have pointed out.opcorn: My experience with manifolds is that cast will outlast tubular hands down. Yes cast will crack but will go un noticed for way longer than a cracked tubular manifold. Most people don't know the cast mani is cracked until removing it.


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## crazybohunk (May 24, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Went out for a pull on the newly-installed manifold. After 10 seconds or so of part throttle, the brand-new, custom assembled FX400 fell apart. It sounds like someone scooped a shovel-full of gravel into the transmission case. Disgusting. If I see anything from the logs captured in that brief timeframe of use on the car, I'll post it.


Hi Doug,

Your brand new Clutchmasters FX400 blew up on the FrankenTT??

I just bought one for my TT for my build.

I am just about to install it into my brand new IE long block.

This sh_t concerns me WTF happened to it?

Randy.


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

crazybohunk said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Your brand new Clutchmasters FX400 blew up on the FrankenTT??
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry, my fx400 has been holding more power for 2yrs without issue.


----------



## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... but the solution you're proposing is a proven weaker design (much thinner wall, and a collection of short tubes welded to a flange)! Someone wake me up if I'm dreaming, but I fail to see how shaving some material off a good cast core would make it weaker than a welded tubular one. As I said, my plan isn't limited to an OEM unit as a blank, a *cast* unit is what I will start with, so JBS isn't out of the picture (although I'd hate to give them my business). I am not trying to push a product here, but can't help telling it how I see it.
> 
> As far as the stock units cracking, I'd say that it has happened but definitely not a trend. Countless of examples are still going strong after 100k miles. Mine for example is in good shape after 11 years, and as you put it, "tuned to hell". The collector area in mine is already massaged in the same fashion as Doug's (still hasn't cracked after 3 racing seasons ???). What I'll do is extrude hone it to further improve the tapering in areas that aren't easily reachable... and if that fails I'll simply reload on a JBS unit. I welcome and truthfully respect your knowledge and inputs, but nobody is convincing me that a cast turbo mani has less structural integrity than a tubular one (extrude honing and all). Plus I already went through it in the EVO forum, I wish that thread wasn't blackholed because it had the kind of data and real life testing that our community often lacks.


Agreed. I have seen may more cracked tubular manifolds compared to stock or quality aftermarket cast manifolds. i'd much rather have a ported cast manifold than a tubular mani as well. I have never ported any of my manifolds tho


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

crazybohunk said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Your brand new Clutchmasters FX400 blew up on the FrankenTT??
> 
> I just bought one for my TT for my build.


We'll know tomorrow. If I were to make a guess I'd say the Luk flywheel is what gave out, rather than the clutch itself.


----------



## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> We'll know tomorrow. If I were to make a guess I'd say the Luk flywheel is what gave out, rather than the clutch itself.


opcorn:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... but the solution you're proposing is a proven weaker design (much thinner wall, and a collection of short tubes welded to a flange)! Someone wake me up if I'm dreaming, but I fail to see how shaving some material off a good cast core would make it weaker than a welded tubular one. As I said, my plan isn't limited to an OEM unit as a blank, a *cast* unit is what I will start with, so JBS isn't out of the picture (although I'd hate to give them my business). I am not trying to push a product here, but can't help telling it how I see it.
> 
> As far as the stock units cracking, I'd say that it has happened but definitely not a trend. Countless of examples are still going strong after 100k miles. Mine for example is in good shape after 11 years, and as you put it, "tuned to hell". The collector area in mine is already massaged in the same fashion as Doug's (still hasn't cracked after 3 racing seasons ???). What I'll do is extrude hone it to further improve the tapering in areas that aren't easily reachable... and if that fails I'll simply reload on a JBS unit. I welcome and truthfully respect your knowledge and inputs, but nobody is convincing me that a cast turbo mani has less structural integrity than a tubular one (extrude honing and all). Plus I already went through it in the EVO forum, I wish that thread wasn't blackholed because it had the kind of data and real life testing that our community often lacks.


maybe I see more k04 cars than you.
over 50% of them that I see come thru my workshop are cracked which is why I state what I state..

Stock manifold clearly has its own issues, and making it thinner & investing money in extrude honing something which i see a high failure rate on made no sense. I abandoned the idea as a result.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> Hopefully the FFE guys can pull that mani without pulling the head if they are going to do some back to back comparisons. Pulling the head to install a mani will not be desirable to most as others have pointed out.opcorn: My experience with manifolds is that cast will outlast tubular hands down. Yes cast will crack but will go un noticed for way longer than a cracked tubular manifold. Most people don't know the cast mani is cracked until removing it.


.... unless its 034 K04, which literally lasted hours... before cracking in all manner of places..
Cast is No Guarantee of crack prevention... Plenty of folks suffered cracked k03 manifolds from the usual suspects (supplier wise)

tubulars can crack also, for sure.. as Can turbos, but we still fit them dont we


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Bill, how about we keep things into perspective for a second? Nobody can deny that cast manifolds can crack overtime with the harsh environment they're subjected to, especially when the construction is subpar like the 034 ones... But so does their tubular counterparts, at a much faster rate and percentage. 

You definitely have a point that you've seen more manifolds than I will ever see, but I'm sure you will agree that pound for pound a GOOD cast unit (even ported or extrude honed) will outlast the BEST tubular unit if subjected to identical environments. The physics, material use, compactness, absence of welds, wall thickness, are all eye-soring evidence of the validity of the argument we are making (the practice also shows evidence to supports it).


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

IDK about that statement....

a good, quality, welded tubular manifold will last the life of a car.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

speed51133! said:


> IDK about that statement....
> 
> a good, quality, welded tubular manifold will last the life of a car.


^^ i dont know about that statement lol. a few years MAX, def not the life of the car in most cases :laugh:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

So essentially, everything breaks eventually. Great. Looking forward to results from Doug, let the manifold type debate go :laugh:


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Big_Tom said:


> ^^ i dont know about that statement lol. a few years MAX, def not the life of the car in most cases :laugh:


Perhaps he's operating on the likely assumption that the car will end up parted, or wrapped around a pole before the tubular manifold fails? :sly:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

speed51133! said:


> a good, quality, welded tubular manifold will last the life of a car.


That's exactly the argument made by reputable companies in the Evo community! I have unfortunately experienced first hand, that the argument does not hold water. :wave:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Rod Ratio said:


> Perhaps he's operating on the likely assumption that the car will end up parted, or wrapped around a pole before the tubular manifold fails? :sly:


:thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> So essentially, everything breaks eventually. Great. Looking forward to results from Doug, let the manifold type debate go :laugh:


Let's just agree to disagree on this one and move on! I don't see how someone can make a case for an exponentially stronger cast manifold not able to last, and at the same token argue that a much weaker designed tubular should last the life of the car. :screwy:

The cast camp can have their cast manifolds, and the tubular camp their welded tubular units (there is nothing wrong with difference of opinion). I am personally done with this debate, the last thing we want is someone to follow your lead and break out a longcat ruining a good thread. :beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Fabian found the problem: a sheared flywheel bolt. One lousy bolt! From the sound of it, you'd have thought the motor's world was going to end. But everything inside the clutch was intact. I am really happy not to have found some kind of defect with the fancy custom clutch assembly their racecar supplier built.

Also, Relentless dropped me a pair of new products for me to evaluate -- again showing confidence in their product and submitting for free. This time it's a manifold/downpipe combo. I'm not sure of the details on the down pipe, which I believe is more of a seller for Relentless in the UK. Perhaps Sam Bryant will have something to say on its behalf?


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

^^^^wrong thread Doug


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Bill, how about we keep things into perspective for a second? Nobody can deny that cast manifolds can crack overtime with the harsh environment they're subjected to, especially when the construction is subpar like the 034 ones... But so does their tubular counterparts, at a much faster rate and percentage.
> 
> You definitely have a point that you've seen more manifolds than I will ever see, but I'm sure you will agree that pound for pound a GOOD cast unit (even ported or extrude honed) will outlast the BEST tubular unit if subjected to identical environments. The physics, material use, compactness, absence of welds, wall thickness, are all eye-soring evidence of the validity of the argument we are making (the practice also shows evidence to supports it).


I'm afraid I will disagree here..
The point, laboured I know, (lol it in my nature) is a quality part is a quality part, and a non quality part is a non-quality part.. Throw in cast and tubular in there to taste, the relevant word is Quality.

cast manifolds do crack.. they just do. 034's K03 one & K04 one, Kinetic K03 one, ebay copies of all of the above... all have cracked.. tubulars like early relentless/Xs ones.. cracked also, as well as assorted ebay "shiney" ones..

A quality made manifold be it cast ot tubular will last. My 2006 Primary Designs thin wall tubular manifold still runs on a daily driver Audi S3 on one of my old turbos (FP Green) >400bhp and continues to perform crack free. Now by the rational that its tubular it should be cracked. You just cant say thats the case.

We should agree to disagree here I guess.. I know I wont be changing mind and dont expect you will either. :thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Fabian found the problem: a sheared flywheel bolt. One lousy bolt! From the sound of it, you'd have thought the motor's world was going to end. But everything inside the clutch was intact. I am really happy not to have found some kind of defect with the fancy custom clutch assembly their racecar supplier built.
> 
> Also, Relentless dropped me a pair of new products for me to evaluate -- again showing confidence in their product and submitting for free. This time it's a manifold/downpipe combo. I'm not sure of the details on the down pipe, which I believe is more of a seller for Relentless in the UK. Perhaps Sam Bryant will have something to say on its behalf?


Relentless 3" DP are popular here.. I dont find them a particularly good fit alignment wise.. Top sections seem ok, but the angle from the 2 bolt flange to rear section is off... wrong angle.. (the ones I've fitted)


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> Relentless 3" DP are popular here.. I dont find them a particularly good fit alignment wise.. Top sections seem ok, but the angle from the 2 bolt flange to rear section is off... wrong angle.. (the ones I've fitted)


How would you say it compares to the 42Draft Design products?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> How would you say it compares to the 42Draft Design products?


no experience of them Doug..


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Relentless V3 goes in for ceramic-coating*

Shiny no longer, the V3 is now ready for its ceramic beauty treatment.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Shiny no longer, the V3 is now ready for its ceramic beauty treatment.


Hopefully you're having both the inside and the outside done as well. The inside coating helps to distribute the heat throughout the mani and reduce hot spots.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Shiny no longer, the V3 is now ready for its ceramic beauty treatment.


what sort of spray coating & pre-treatment is this?
baked on sort of deal?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> what sort of spray coating & pre-treatment is this?
> baked on sort of deal?


That's just the sandblaster. Prepping the surface so the ceramic adheres well.


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## contiman (Jun 28, 2009)

I found this on google:

http://gt-power.net/index.php?page=product&info=1008316


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

contiman said:


> I found this on google:
> 
> http://gt-power.net/index.php?page=product&info=1008316


luvin the price... *cough*!!!


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## contiman (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree...


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

badger5 said:


> luvin the price... *cough*!!!


Haha, nice warranty - shame about the price


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> How would you say it compares to the 42Draft Design products?


Hahaha I am kinda of upset I am just now finding this thread, Good Stuff. Hi Doug :wave: I am the guy that begged and finally convinced you to send me a Frankenfold (JAN timeframe) to mate with my and I quote "Old, tired, busted K04-02x"  Don't worry I will be purchasing a F23 as soon as I get more monies!

So I have both your manifold and 42's k04 DP. The DP touches the heat shield on right side of the tunnel. I have BFI stg 1 mounts all around and there are signs of slight rubbing. Not really concerned because I came terms with it being my fault for fitting a 3" pipe in space designed for 2.25" pipe.

I honestly look forward to seeing what you (everyone involved) come up with. Really the only issue I had with your Manifold was mounting it to the head. I had to grind a few studs down and skinny up some wrenches :laugh:. Hope to have to never take it off . I also like that I can reach all the turbo studs especially helpfully if you blow out a turbo manifold gasket. Ask me how I know :laugh:

Also who spends 50 bucks on turbo bracket when you can just spend 4 bucks on 1/8 aluminum bar and extend the k03 bracket you had to begin with. Bend (carefully), drill, coat, call it a day! Just my .02c

Definitely watching this Good Luck!


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

Relentless V2 inbound. I can buy, brace, deck and ceramic coat it for significantly less than the purchase price of the V3. Since my TT is nearly track-only, I don't need a manifold built to withstand 2000 heat cycles. Now I have something to port-match my head.


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## fdub15 (Oct 18, 2009)

Found this through Eurospot in Canada, not sure if its a V3 or what, but says its meant for the Frankenturbo

http://shop.eurospot.ca/High-Flow-S...o-Manifold-K04-022-Franken-Turbo-ESTMAUTT.htm


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

does not appear to be the V3...


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

The Relentless V2 manifold arrived today. I picked it up off eBay for under $200, less than half the cost of the V3. So far it looks good. According to an email I exchanged with Relentless, the eBay manifold Doug bought is not a Relentless V2 but perhaps a V1 or a knock-off. The main difference between the V2 and the V3 are the weld quality and the bracing. I plan on bracing my V2 before installation. While the welds on my V2 are not perfect, they look pretty good and there is nothing I would send it back over. 










One other criticism on the non-V3 tubulars is the flange, both fitment and warpage. My V2 flange, while no work of art, is pretty meaty, fits cleanly, will require no trimming and is only about 0.2mm off flat. That may be close enough for the gasket to seal, but I will have mine decked anyway.










The flange opening on the V2 is almost 39mm. Larger than the 34.69 of the V3. I believe this is due to the V3 tubing passing completely through the flange while the V2 only seems to go partially into the flange. Obviously, the V3 construction will be stronger, but the V2 should flow better once the head exhaust port is opened up. 










As I mentioned earlier, this is going on my track car which will not have the heat cycling of a DD so, once some bracing is added, should prove strong enough.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

My little contribution, 
In the uk plenty of people have run the relentless, mostly v2 and more recently v3. I only know of a v2 cracking and that was on a track car, once welded it ran fine thereafter. There are plenty of v2s out there with no cracks, and the ones that are reinforced with weld go strong. I have one that has been ran for a couple of thousand miles on a standard ko4 at 290hp (so high egts as expected). Its still mint.
Fits well 2, only problem is one of the turbo nuts is an arse. 

It baffles me being on vortex in that the american community are so far ahead in some respects, yet so behind in others. Great forum tho, i enjoy the wealth of knowledge and experience with the high power stuff.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Karlos -- nice to see you over here on vortex. Hope to get some contributions from you once in a while. :snowcool:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

I got the manifold last year and it was soooo warped. To deck it flat would have left no material left on the sides. It was basically worthless. Sent it back was like 3/8 of an inch warped.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Karlos -- nice to see you over here on vortex. Hope to get some contributions from you once in a while. :snowcool:


thankyou doug. Good to check out where you reside on the net lol. 
Ive actually been browsing this place for ages, reading most of your hybrid threads and what not.


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## Junkie1.8TQ (Jan 29, 2007)

Any updates?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The Relentless V3 being tested on the FrankenTT is doing fine. The flange bolts are all staying tight and the car as a whole is running better than it ever has. The only performance gripe is heat. The runners are very close to the stock TT225 turbo outlet pipe, which puts the silicone hoses at risk. For a car which has its charge piping routed this way, some kind of heat shield is going to be necessary.


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

On the relentless tuning face book page, I saw that there are heat shields made to protect the stock charge pipe location. 45 Euro I do not think they have them in the states, but I am going to try to get one.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Beat the Heat said:


> On the relentless tuning face book page, I saw that there are heat shields made to protect the stock charge pipe location.


I see it. Here's what it looks like:











Link to the fabricator's facebook post.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...25246960928520&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I am not sure if they are made by Relentless or private party, but i am going to try to find out.


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

My Relentless V2 is at the welder getting the collector-to-runner brace welded on. Next to the ceramic coater. 

To address heat issues I plan on:
1) Using a heat shield faced with the DEI reflect-a-gold or similar. 
2) Opening up the "cowl induction" area at the base of the windshield in an attempt to draw cooling air over the manifold and out the rear of the engine compartment. The insulated heat shield will separate that area from the rest of the engine compartment.
3) If necessary, after the above, possibly wrapping the adjacent length of the charge pipe with hi-temp insulation. 

I'm also concerned about the brake components so some insulation/shielding will be added there.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

2) wont work. Bottom of windscreen is area of high pressure so no air will flow over the mani and out that way. 

doug, prawn made a good shield for his trackcar over on asn. Check it out.


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

superkarl said:


> 2) wont work. Bottom of windscreen is area of high pressure so no air will flow over the mani and out that way.


I guess I wasn't clear. My intention is to draw air IN from the base of the windshield, down the back of the engine compartment over the manifold) and out the bottom.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I would just buy the jbs manifold, and forego all of this nonsense.


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

Rod Ratio said:


> I would just buy the jbs manifold, and forego all of this nonsense.


OK. When you do, make sure you report back its performance.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Late__Apex said:


> OK. When you do, make sure you report back its performance.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

superkarl said:


> doug, prawn made a good shield for his trackcar over on asn. Check it out.


I'd thought his heat shield was for the firewall, not betwixt the turbo and charge pipe. No? Can you link?


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I contacted the fabricator and I am going to try to have one or two imported.


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

70 euro shipped for the heat shield or whatever the US equivilant is to that. Here is a link to some more information and pictures of it installed and a small diy on how to install it.

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...s-manifold-heat-sheild-relentless-sheild.html


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

The fabricator told me that if I get a bunch of people together they could do a group buy on the heat shield for the Relentless V3 Heat shield. Message me on here if you would be down for that and in a week I will let the fabricator know and I will get it set up.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Doug, prawn had to make one for his mani-boost pipe, he melted through about 3 pipes. Id love to link you to his post but his thread is so vast it would take me a lifetime. Drop him a post i know he'd be happy to help you.
To be honest though it isnt much different to adams linked above. Although id be making one myself rather than forking out £45. 

Deffo deffo deffo needed though, sooooo many folks go through the hoses, even the forge one cant take it.


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I am def getting one. I am willing to fork it out than go through multiple charge pipe hoses, which are about $30 a pop. I am going to be using my pro-imports charge pipe from their ko4-02X kit. I think it is a worthwhile investment if you dont have the tools to bend stainless steel.


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## Junkie1.8TQ (Jan 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The Relentless V3 being tested on the FrankenTT is doing fine. The flange bolts are all staying tight and the car as a whole is running better than it ever has. The only performance gripe is heat. The runners are very close to the stock TT225 turbo outlet pipe, which puts the silicone hoses at risk. For a car which has its charge piping routed this way, some kind of heat shield is going to be necessary.


This is great. I'm glad there is some in-depth testing with your kit and this manifold. How was the install? Did you have issues accessing some of the mounting points? Did you end up using any bracing for the turbo and manifold?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Just make a heat shield, its not that serious. I made tons of head shields just like that when I was a kid. We would go dumpster diving at the Reynolds aluminum plant a get scrap and make heat shields for all kind of stuff. It's not that hard it just takes a little time and effort. In the end you will feel much more accomplished that you made your own verses forking out the duckets for one. Doug I'm sure FFE can hook it up also...:beer:


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I could make my own, but unfortunately I do not have the time. Between working overtime and starting to tear the engine down.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Junkie1.8TQ said:


> This is great. I'm glad there is some in-depth testing with your kit and this manifold. How was the install? Did you have issues accessing some of the mounting points? Did you end up using any bracing for the turbo and manifold?


Here's some detailed installation notes I posted to a thread on audi-sport.net

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...entless-v3-manifold-installation-testing.html


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

Relentless V2 with a reinforcing brace. This should help support the turbo and reduce the strain on the collector welds.


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## Relentless. (Oct 30, 2012)

anyone who wants the v3 manifolds just contact me. 
jbs manifolds dont perform well. they have misfire on cylinder 2 unless ported out. collector is more restrictive than oem.
happy to report no v3 failures here in the uk


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## Relentless. (Oct 30, 2012)

here is a photo of my modified v3 manifold, with a gt28 and relentless downpipe with v band. running very very well. 230gs recorded at 13psi  still unmapped. 









my heat shield from adam



relentless /gt28 conversion finished


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

How long has that gt2871 been dangling from the Manifold w/out a support bracket?


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## Relentless. (Oct 30, 2012)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> How long has that gt2871 been dangling from the Manifold w/out a support bracket?


It hasn't. I have a support bracket


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Rod Ratio said:


> I would just buy the jbs manifold, and forego all of this nonsense.


you like misfires then..
curious


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

badger5 said:


> you like misfires then..
> curious


Elaborate ?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Rod Ratio said:


> Elaborate ?


cyl 2 misfires from this manifold.... several times on several different cars...

runners 1,2 share single very small feed into the collector.
collectors needs porting out big time to help rid the misfire

usually on hybrids where more airflow than std k04, but not exclusively so. Shows up as ign break up after 5500rpm.... and watch misfire counter on cyl 2 go nutts

been there.. suffered that...

not impressed

V3 flows way better and doesnt cause misfires.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Relentless. said:


> here is a photo of my modified v3 manifold, with a gt28 and relentless downpipe with v band. running very very well. 230gs recorded at 13psi  still unmapped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've alway thought that a manifold that was easy to upgrade the flange would be a smart approach for those interested in transisitioning from a K04/hybird to a bigger frame turbo. This looks like the ticket.

I'm sure you are already thnking about putting this out as a marketable product, after testing, of course. If you do, consider throwing in the turbo support brace as part of the package.....And while you are at it, throw in a downpipe that will tie the gt28/gtx28 to the stock exhaust fit-up point.  

Please keep up informed on the longivity of this setup. Hopefully it will hold together for a long-long while.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

badger5 said:


> cyl 2 misfires from this manifold.... several times on several different cars...
> 
> runners 1,2 share single very small feed into the collector.
> collectors needs porting out big time to help rid the misfire
> ...


Damn.. You'd think it would be a better product, considering the price. They 'look' nice. :laugh:


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Rod Ratio said:


> Damn.. You'd think it would be a better product, considering the price. They 'look' nice. :laugh:


FYI

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5675749-The-JBS-K04-manifold-reworked&highlight=jbs


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## ivo098 (Jun 2, 2008)

hi everybody,

I got off ebay relentless mani which is supposed to be a V3. When it comes to me how to make sure it is really a V3, not an earlier version or a copy?


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I can almost guarantee that it is a knock off. I talked to Sam Bryant a few times and he told me that all the ebay ones are knock off's. The only U.S. distributor is xs-power or oder it direct from Relentless in England.


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## ivo098 (Jun 2, 2008)

I bought it from UK private listing. The guy said he got it for his project but sold the car and he assured me it is a V3. Fingers crossed, I will post pictures when it arrives.


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

That is more reassuring. Make sure you check it for cracks in the welds and make sure it sits flush on your head.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

badger5 said:


> cyl 2 misfires from this manifold.... several times on several different cars...
> 
> runners 1,2 share single very small feed into the collector.
> collectors needs porting out big time to help rid the misfire
> ...


Still feel that way now that we know a ported China fold will perform we'll? Just trying to make an educated decision on an exhaust mani like everyone else. And I thought we've all agreed that the long tube design created an unwanted increase in spool time (V3). But didn't I just see a V4 short runner design from relentless? Looked promising.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

warranty225cpe said:


> Still feel that way now that we know a ported China fold will perform we'll? Just trying to make an educated decision on an exhaust mani like everyone else. And I thought we've all agreed that the long tube design created an unwanted increase in spool time (V3). But didn't I just see a V4 short runner design from relentless? Looked promising.


can you trust anything relentless make however is the big question for me

quality?
consistency?
reliability?
etc etc

ported chinafold would seem to be a safer bet at this point...
v4 is being tested currently, so more info will be revealed in due course

you never know, it might actually work and be ok......


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Lol affect spool time, on a tiny ko4, are you taking the piss


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

superkarl said:


> Lol affect spool time, on a tiny ko4, are you taking the piss


Nahh, he's not. 300rpms of variation among the types is definitely noticeable in-car. Here's where the contenders stack up, from fastest to slowest:

OEM TT225 (ported outlet)
Franken manifold (now discontinued)
China-fold (ported outlet)
Relentless v3
Relentless prototype (being revised)

Obviously, a ported OEM manifold presents the best value. Granted it's top end is limited, but the everyday performance is unmatched. As for a new option to package with our turbos, I'd say it's down to the China-fold and whatever form the Relentless "v4" takes.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Nahh, he's not. 300rpms of variation among the types is definitely noticeable in-car. Here's where the contenders stack up, from fastest to slowest:
> 
> OEM TT225 (ported outlet)
> Franken manifold (now discontinued)
> ...


Where would you say an extrude honed Chinafold would stack up and.would the gains be worth the cost.of.the manifold alone over an extrudehoned stock 225 mani?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

badger5 said:


> can you trust anything relentless make however is the big question for me
> 
> quality?
> consistency?
> ...


I'm searching to find a pic of the V4.. Can't remember where I saw it.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

superkarl said:


> Lol affect spool time, on a tiny ko4, are you taking the piss


:facepalm: 



[email protected] said:


> Nahh, he's not. 300rpms of variation among the types is definitely noticeable in-car. Here's where the contenders stack up, from fastest to slowest:
> 
> OEM TT225 (ported outlet)
> Franken manifold (now discontinued)
> ...


Thank you! Some people just don't get it, the spirit of running small frame turbo is to have amazing spool characteristics and give transient response that can't be found in larger frame turbos. IMO, whenever people decide to ignore what makes these little things fun, there is no point being in the small-frame game, and one might as well go for the BT experience. If loosing response is not important for someone on a stock frame turbo and all that counts is whatever is gained up top, I don't get why anyone wouldn't just upgrade for something bigger. 

Anyway, to stay on topic, this is where I went with my setup, knowing that I wanted to retain the spool character and response as close as possible to stock, and wanted to stay with a cast design:



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The stock manifold has very good port entry at the head flange. However, it really sucks at the collector side, and there is a good bit of tapering in the runner ID as they approach the collector. My goal is to tackle the collector issue with porting/polishing and gasket matching the turbo flange. The tapering in the runner ID will be taken care with extrude honing.
> 
> *Phase 1: collector Porting *
> 
> ...




And for comparison's sake, this is what you can end up with with good porting of a stock core (closing-in to T25 collector area):


*Still trailing the T25 but not by much, this thing will definitely hold its own! *


















And finally, porting the runners (all the way through), cryogenic treatment, and ceramic coating. Time will tell on longevity, but I think that in terms of exhaust manifold for us peanut-turbo lovers, this is a viable option for having your cake and eating it too. 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> *phase 2 *
> 
> Every runner is ported all the way to the collector (roughly 40 mm). The manifold was then sent for cryo-treatment and then ceramic coated externally.
> 
> ...


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## Dismal (Jan 13, 2006)

Marcus, am I seeing a hole straight through the area where the collectors merge?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Dismal said:


> Marcus, am I seeing a hole straight through the area where the collectors merge?


EGT probe


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dismal said:


> Marcus, am I seeing a hole straight through the area where the collectors merge?





DMVDUB said:


> EGT probe


Correct! Drilled and tapped port for mounting the EGT probe.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Correct! Drilled and tapped port for mounting the EGT probe.


Do I win something?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I really wonder, as this would be an interesting piece of data but maybe not apples to apples comparison.

Given the exhaust manifold options, which turbo could achieve the lowest exhaust manifold pressure for a given airflow between the GTT and F23.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> I really wonder, as this would be an interesting piece of data but maybe not apples to apples comparison.
> 
> Given the exhaust manifold options, which turbo could achieve the lowest exhaust manifold pressure for a given airflow between the GTT and F23.


As interesting as this test would be we'd have to get a 100% nonpartisan to do it.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

This guy!

Theres a lot of variables that would have to be accounted for, but I think a large enough gap would declare whos turbo might be better.

Its not all about peak numbers in my opinion, because operating a turbo system at a 2:1 ratio is not the proper way to make power.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

how did you port the entire length of the runners where they go round the corners?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

badger5 said:


> how did you port the entire length of the runners where they go round the corners?


Voodoo, J/K see quote below! :beer:



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> This is what I did:
> 
> I adapted two flexible shafts welded to a pair flex-hone bits (1" and a 1.25"). With two flex points (a very flexible primary and stiffer sprung secondary flex point) you could go through the runners all the way to the collector merge.
> 
> ...


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

That Mani is certainly opened up ALOT! Just looking at the pictures I can tell from when I held a non ported tt225 manifold in my hands. 

Match that to a ported turbine housings and opcorn:


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

barelyboosting1.8t said:


> Where would you say an extrude honed Chinafold would stack up and.would the gains be worth the cost.of.the manifold alone over an extrudehoned stock 225 mani?


??


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Voodoo, J/K see quote below! :beer:


thankyou for that.
nice work.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

barelyboosting1.8t said:


> ??


No one has answered your question because its all speculation. Nobody knows until its tested.


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## Dismal (Jan 13, 2006)

DMVDUB said:


> EGT probe


If it was a snake, it would have bit me. Makes perfect sense to put it there.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Dismal said:


> If it was a snake, it would have bit me. Makes perfect sense to put it there.


:laugh:


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## TTazRS (Feb 1, 2012)

*v3*

So is the relentless v3 seemingly the best performer with the F23?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

TTazRS said:


> So is the relentless v3 seemingly the best performer with the F23?


No hard data yet. But long tube = probably not.

Im waiting for the V4 to come out..


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## TTazRS (Feb 1, 2012)

*v3*

I'm thinking about swapping my AMU head for an AEB and adding the v3/v4 exhaust mani and the SEM intake mani with a 70mm TB. Should flow pretty good after that!


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