# Mk7 Golf R - brake cooling for tracked car



## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

I am seeing high levels of heat coming from the front brakes. I have not measured the heat with an IR sensor. I have seen smoke coming from the front brakes. I am seeing heat checking on the OEM front rotors. I experienced fluid fade at my last event at Laguna Seca. I do not experience pad fade with aftermarket pads. When coming off track, particularly if I do not receive a full lap for cooling down, I hear noise coming from the front axle suggesting physical contact between a rotating surface and a non-rotating surface. I drive around the paddock until this sound stops and I am assuming this sound is coming from the braking system.

I take my 2015 Golf R to 10-15 HPDE events each year. I run in either the instructor or advanced run groups. I have taken the R to 31 HPDE days.

In terms of modifications to the car, I have a stage 1 high output 91 octane APR tune along with their TCU tune. I am running 2.5 deg negative camber via camber plates, and the car is running a coilover conversion suspension (springs/adjustable perches/bump stops) from Ground Control along with a thicker rear sway bar. Edit 6-20-2018 - as of late April the car also has a UM Haldex tune.

TTRS brake air deflectors have been installed on the lower control arms and an opening has been cut in the dust shields to allow airflow from the air deflectors to the rotors. I am currently using Ferodo DS2500 pads both front and rear with ATE brake fluid on OEM rotors. The brake fluid is changed every year. I am on my second set of OEM front rotors which were turned last summer. I have done 9 HPDE days since turning the rotors and because of the heat checking they are probably due for replacement before my next event at the end of April.

My current wheel collection includes both 17" and 18" wheels, all of which have been used on track. I would prefer to avoid giving up on the 17" wheels as they are light in weight, tires are less expensive than larger diameter tires, and I have a brand new set of tires for them sitting in my garage.

If I ignore the option of doing nothing then 3 options come to my mind. In order of overall cost:

Option 1: Replace the front rotors with high carbon rotors and replace the ATE fluid with fluid with a higher boiling point (Motul 600 or similar). The assumption is that the high carbon alloy rotors will have better heat tolerance than the OEM rotors. Fluid with a higher boiling point might be enough to eliminate fluid fade. 

Pros: Low cost, lets me keep my 17" wheels
Cons: May not be enough to solve the problem

Option 2: Replace the TTRS air deflectors with full brake ducting solution consisting of the duct hose, some sort of modification to the front bumper/grill area to connect the hoses to that area, backing plates for the rotors with connectors for the hoses. Include the option 1 changes in this option.

Pros: This is the solution to solve brake cooling problems. My shop estimated they would need a day or so to fabricate this solution, so moderate cost compared to option 3. Lets me keep my 17" wheels.
Cons: Unlike other marques (BMW/Porsche/Corvette/etc.) brake ducting kits do not appear to exist for VW, so this option would require custom fabrication of the components. Possible cosmetic issues due to the work on the front grill.

Option 3: Replace the stock brakes with a big brake kit, probably a Stoptech ST40 primarily for the added thermal mass of the 355x32 rotors versus the 340x20 OEM rotors. I would combine it with higher boiling point brake fluid.

Pros: Looks pretty, and it's a bolt on solution.
Cons: Expensive, and it may not solve the problem. I can no longer run 17" wheels.

Option 2 is the preferred option but I would like to reduce the amount of custom fabrication needed. Has anyone, especially forum vendors or tuners, constructed this solution before with a shop or customer car? Are there backing plates on the market, possibly for other marques, that could be modified to work with a Mk 7 Golf?


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Why not do this with drilled and/or slotted oe size rotors.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-neuspee...MIrayy8Obu2QIVRrjACh2cEQKtEAQYBCABEgI4aPD_BwE

I can’t see you losing the use of the 17’s with another bbk. Neuspeed can verify fitment w/just a ph call. 

The other options seem like costly bandaids that will only put off going to a bbk made for oe discs. This is bolt on and like anything that’s bolt on, it quickly comes off to pass on/sell to many who would gladly pay for a pre loved bbk at a lower price. Can’t skimp on brake solutions at Seca or anything less. You only have to do it right once. Be happy you don’t have R32/36 additional weight/mass issues to deal with.

Losing the weight of the oe calipers vs aluminum, plus running the 17’s is win win. If it works out well, additional weight savings on 2 piece rotors may be in your future. Give Neuspeed a call.


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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

petethepug said:


> Why not do this with drilled and/or slotted oe size rotors.
> 
> https://www.ecstuning.com/b-neuspee...MIrayy8Obu2QIVRrjACh2cEQKtEAQYBCABEgI4aPD_BwE
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply.

Slotted and/or drilled rotors do nothing for brake cooling. The slots are there to allow hot gas to escape from between the pad and the rotor surface. This gas is one of the causes of pad fade. Since I am not experiencing pad fade, slotted rotors would not be of any benefit.

Neuspeed calipers on OEM rotors will not solve any of the problems I am looking at solving.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

We live in a city where everything is hills. Not as extreme as SF, but brakes are used a lot until we get on the highway. Through trial and error we finally eliminated a problem with, what most refer to as, warped rotors. Obviously our rotors weren't warped, we had a build up of brake pad material from riding the brakes down 7-8% grades filled with commuter traffic. During El Niño years we'd deal with the same traffic scenario in massive down pours that would leave standing water at the bottom of those hills and the streets connecting them.

Ultimately, we were due for new rotors almost every 24 months because of the pads baking material on the rotors when holding the vehicles on hills. This is not competitive driving, its a daily 2 mile commute to the highway that tortured our rotors until they had that "warped" feeling of brake material build up. For the past twenty years all four of our vehicles have run either x drilled and/or slotted rotors. Old school technology cured the pulsing condition caused by brake material build up by simply refreshing the pad surface on every rotation via x drilled and/or slotted rotors. 

Over two decades ago Brembo (aka: Race Technologies) had or still has a warehouse in Irvine, CA. It was close enough to my office that I could stop in at lunch and chat with their gurus about applications and technology. There was hush hush talk of non metallic (ceramic) brakes in development back then too. It was all wholesale, but leaving cash at the receptionist desk and picking up rotors in back at will call was allowed for locals. 










What I learned from Brembo was fact and evidence based. This was street and track racing along with the R&D they based their products reputation on via a multi million dollar brake dyno. I trust their years of R&D as well as the devotion to racing/safety and working with Porsche to develop the first production car offering carbon ceramic brakes. *My opinions on x drilled and slotted rotors are still based on what RTI/Brembo taught me a quarter century ago.* Fast forward 25 years and RTI is still thriving in SoCal. A quick google lays out what I was taught a quarter century ago while eating lunch a few times with their engineers willing to share their knowledge with a kid who walked in the door because he saw Brembo on the outside of the building.

https://blog.racetechnologies.com/2015/04/09/the-advantages-of-cross-drilled-and-slotted-discs/
https://blog.racetechnologies.com/2...-the-start-of-the-brembo-performance-program/

The same displays are still in place, in the same building 25 years later. The only difference is now the ceramic carbon brake rotors are no longer top secret behind the doors to their lab. Fortunately, the article from Modified Magazine is posted on RTI's website below. It lays out what I was taught from the gurus of brake technology and shows how much opinion and conjecture is out there regarding brake technology. Call RTI on one of the number in the links above. Obtain information meticulously gathered, scientifically, from street, track, off road and the brake dyno. Smoke the competition by maximizing your budget with the brake product(s) that are within your reach. 

Godspeed to Bill Neumann (September 16, 2016) and kudos to Aaron Neumann for staying true to the business model of street and racing heritage offered to the average Joe like me.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Yperion Titanium offers Titanium backing plates for the OEM caliper. That may help with containing the heat to the pad and caliper and keeping fluid temperature down.


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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

rex_racer said:


> Yperion Titanium offers Titanium backing plates for the OEM caliper. That may help with containing the heat to the pad and caliper and keeping fluid temperature down.


Thanks, that's a good idea. I sent a copy of my original post to my shop yesterday and now they are not so sure about recommending a full-on ducting solution for a daily driven car, presumably because the ducting is vulnerable to road damage. So option 1 may be my best option and the addition of heat insulation for the pads can only improve it. I will only turn to a BBK option after I have tried the other options (or my skills continue to improve and the OEM brakes are not able to cope with the speeds I am carrying).


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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

If you are smoking, you are higher than 700 degrees. On my stock A3, which did not have vented rotors, I was at that temp and all four corners were smoking after my first lap at Laguna along with losing my brakes because the fluid boiled.

In general the 8V platform has horrible breaker cooling and some have actually melted their caliper piston seals (this could be all bad). Along with the heat, many have also had bad experiences with pads because they are working on too hot of temperatures. I've been really happy with ebc yellows on my upgraded setup.

You can get some ducting to go to the rotors (my next project) from the front bumper to help, but I suggest you change to a bbk kit or aftermarket vented rotors.

After I went to Stoptech ST40 355mm kit, my temps went down to 250-300 degrees after session, roughly a 400 degree drop. This helped with consistency on the track. I used rbf600 fluid too which has been great, maybe change once a year for my 8 track day season last year.

I changed my rear to vented and slotted st S3 sized (310mm) rotors and also seen the huge temperature drop.

Get a laser temp gauge, think I got mine for 12 dollars online or stop by harbor freight.

I should be back at Laguna in April or May!

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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

mroberte said:


> If you are smoking, you are higher than 700 degrees. On my stock A3, which did not have vented rotors, I was at that temp and all four corners were smoking after my first lap at Laguna along with losing my brakes because the fluid boiled.
> 
> In general the 8V platform has horrible breaker cooling and some have actually melted their caliper piston seals (this could be all bad). Along with the heat, many have also had bad experiences with pads because they are working on too hot of temperatures. I've been really happy with ebc yellows on my upgraded setup.
> 
> ...


My shop is advising against the ducting:



Edge Motorworks said:


> Yes, daily driving with ducts installed we would expect damage from road debris, parking lot maneuvers, extra wear and shorter life of the ducting, and rain water getting funneled right onto the brake rotors..


The Golf R/Audi S3 has vented rotors from and rear. The Ferodo pads have a flat friction coefficient out to 500c/932f and don't start to fall way off until 600c/1100f so my pads are fine for what I am doing. I'm going to try ti shims, new rotors, and higher temp brake fluid and see how that goes. If those changes solve my problems, then great. If not, then I'll sell my 17" wheels and buy an ST40 kit.

I plan to be at Laguna with NCRC on May 27. I run in their point by group.


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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

Cliff3 said:


> My shop is advising against the ducting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From first hand experience, extra cooling/ducting, especially for these cars, is needed. Everyone that does track events always have issues unfortunately with heat. While I get the rain/debris, stockings or something similar to the snow grate in the intake will work and to have a Job loop would help if you are in a rainy area... Or just install when on track.

But change the rotors to something different to start, that will be helpful and the cooling fin designs on the aftermarket are better/optimal.

The fedora pads are incredibly amazing, but after the heating issues are gone, it opens you up to more cheaper options, especially since you track often.

I'll most likely be at that event too! Just put the new turbo setup and tuning now. If you see me, say hello! We can swap track stories!









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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

mroberte said:


> From first hand experience, extra cooling/ducting, especially for these cars, is needed. Everyone that does track events always have issues unfortunately with heat. While I get the rain/debris, stockings or something similar to the snow grate in the intake will work and to have a Job loop would help if you are in a rainy area... Or just install when on track.
> 
> But change the rotors to something different to start, that will be helpful and the cooling fin designs on the aftermarket are better/optimal.
> 
> ...


What rotors have you had success with? I will definitely look for you. I'm easy to spot:


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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

Cliff3 said:


> What rotors have you had success with? I will definitely look for you. I'm easy to spot:


I'm running the Stoptech (centric) rotors all around.

The rears are:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003K3L1Z...olid=1LBV6Q9O172TI&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F5DPRV...olid=1LBV6Q9O172TI&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Get them through Jet.com as they give you more of a discount. I've been really happy with them and no issues on street/track. When it rains however, the pads get stuck to the rotors if the car sits for awhile, which is normal.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Cliff3 said:


> Thanks, that's a good idea. I sent a copy of my original post to my shop yesterday and now they are not so sure about recommending a full-on ducting solution for a daily driven car, presumably because the ducting is vulnerable to road damage. So option 1 may be my best option and the addition of heat insulation for the pads can only improve it. I will only turn to a BBK option after I have tried the other options (or my skills continue to improve and the OEM brakes are not able to cope with the speeds I am carrying).


Competitors that offer a similar shield, but do not have any plans to make a version for our brake pad have claimed up to a 140F temp reduction on the caliper. This would be good to keep the fluid happier. I still think adding some additional ducting would be ok. You really just need some simple scoops/ducts since you already have the TT air deflectors. Running direct air would be great, but just getting more airflow to the deflector would be helpful too. I've used RBF 600 in the past, its good, but picks up water vapor quite easily, requiring regular changes. There is another brand that costs more, but does not pick up water vapor, to me worth the extra investment if I don't have to maintain as much. I'll have to get back to you on the brand, but my local supplier carries it. 

Yperion also claims to be able to make pistons in Ti with relief cuts, this would allow for even more cooling.


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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

rex_racer said:


> Competitors that offer a similar shield, but do not have any plans to make a version for our brake pad have claimed up to a 140F temp reduction on the caliper. This would be good to keep the fluid happier. I still think adding some additional ducting would be ok. You really just need some simple scoops/ducts since you already have the TT air deflectors. Running direct air would be great, but just getting more airflow to the deflector would be helpful too. I've used RBF 600 in the past, its good, but picks up water vapor quite easily, requiring regular changes. There is another brand that costs more, but does not pick up water vapor, to me worth the extra investment if I don't have to maintain as much. I'll have to get back to you on the brand, but my local supplier carries it.
> 
> Yperion also claims to be able to make pistons in Ti with relief cuts, this would allow for even more cooling.


Yperion appears to consist of a Russian guy on Facebook with a PayPal account. He has not yet made shims for the Golf R, but after reviewing the pad diagram on the Ferodo site he figures it should be no problem. $40 deposit with $45 plus $8 shipping when I can confirm he has shipped. So...I love being on the bleeding edge. 

I change my brake fluid religiously once a year. From reading some comments online, it looks like that is about what RBF600 expects.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Nice! Ti parts like that in the States would be 2 or 3x the cost. When your country is the #2 producer of Ti in the world, you have some clout. Gotta love the associated shipping costs on ultra light weight too.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Cliff3 said:


> I change my brake fluid religiously once a year. From reading some comments online, it looks like that is about what RBF600 expects.


Unfortunately I was changing my fluid out far more often. I was better off using a cheaper fluid that has a higher wet BP. There are other fluids besides RBF600 that perform better and don't attract water in the same way. Just didn't have good luck with it.


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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

rex_racer said:


> Unfortunately I was changing my fluid out far more often. I was better off using a cheaper fluid that has a higher wet BP. There are other fluids besides RBF600 that perform better and don't attract water in the same way. Just didn't have good luck with it.


Where do you live? I've had pretty good luck with it so far. Changing again soon.

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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

Derrick M on FB group posted oem brake vents, first time I've ever heard of them. Ordering a set. Basically they are plastic pieces that snap onto lower suspension arm.

Part numbers: 8V0407811 / 8V0407812

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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

I saw that post the other day. I already have the TTRS deflectors on my car.


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## MMeachGLI (Feb 1, 2014)

Cliff3 said:


> I saw that post the other day. I already have the TTRS deflectors on my car.


I’m curious the mounting of these. How secure are they? 



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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

MMeachGLI said:


> I’m curious the mounting of these. How secure are they?


They are bolted to the lower control arms via p/n's: N10422203 & N90761102


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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

Cliff3 said:


> They are bolted to the lower control arms via p/n's: N10422203 & N90761102


Are these required or already on the car?

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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

mroberte said:


> Are these required or already on the car?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I ordered them with the air deflectors - 2 bolts at $1.28 ea and 2 nuts at $0.68 ea. The air deflector part numbers are 8P0863150B and 8P0863149B and they were about $52 ea from Jim Ellis VW.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

mroberte said:


> Where do you live? I've had pretty good luck with it so far. Changing again soon.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


SF Bay Area. I switched to a cheaper fluid with a lower BP and didn't have to deal with changing nearly as often. The Motul just absorbed water way too fast on that car.


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## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

rex_racer said:


> SF Bay Area. I switched to a cheaper fluid with a lower BP and didn't have to deal with changing nearly as often. The Motul just absorbed water way too fast on that car.


Oh I'm in SF too. I just bought another round of rfb600, I'll try another next time.

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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Bit of a follow-up on this thread. I ordered the ti shims (from yperion titanium on Facebook, email is solidtisolutions at gmail dot com) back on March 16 and they arrived this week. Ordering from this vendor is not exactly the Amazon experience and probably not for the faint of heart. He used the diagrams on the Ferodo site as templates and these shims follow the outline of my Ferodo pads very closely. I'll install them this weekend and test them at Laguna Seca when I am there over the Memorial Day weekend.


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## burgerkong (Jan 27, 2016)

Cliff3 said:


> Bit of a follow-up on this thread. I ordered the ti shims (from yperion titanium on Facebook, email is solidtisolutions at gmail dot com) back on March 16 and they arrived this week. Ordering from this vendor is not exactly the Amazon experience and probably not for the faint of heart. He used the diagrams on the Ferodo site as templates and these shims follow the outline of my Ferodo pads very closely. I'll install them this weekend and test them at Laguna Seca when I am there over the Memorial Day weekend.


How are they, any updates? I am going the exact route you took, only with RS3 deflectors, Castrol SRF/Endless RF650 and Endless MX72. Cutting away most of the dust shield, but leaving enough to protect the sensors.


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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

burgerkong said:


> How are they, any updates? I am going the exact route you took, only with RS3 deflectors, Castrol SRF/Endless RF650 and Endless MX72. Cutting away most of the dust shield, but leaving enough to protect the sensors.












I installed the heat shields in advance of my last event at Laguna Seca over the Memorial Day weekend. No pad or fluid fade and no smoking pads. I measured temps for the front rotor at 775f after coming off track and driving around the paddock for a bit until my front brakes stopped making noise. I had my shop grind away material from the bottom of the ears until they were 5mm wide; as you can see in the photo there are spring clips on the pads and the ears on the heat shields needed to be slimmed down to accommodate the clips.


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## burgerkong (Jan 27, 2016)

Cliff3 said:


> I installed the heat shields in advance of my last event at Laguna Seca over the Memorial Day weekend. No pad or fluid fade and no smoking pads. I measured temps for the front rotor at 775f after coming off track and driving around the paddock for a bit until my front brakes stopped making noise. I had my shop grind away material from the bottom of the ears until they were 5mm wide; as you can see in the photo there are spring clips on the pads and the ears on the heat shields needed to be slimmed down to accommodate the clips.


Are your outer and inner pads wearing evenly? This is the 0.8 or 0.6mm ones? Any issues with your dust boot/seals going on the stock calipers?


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## Cliff3 (Jan 19, 2015)

burgerkong said:


> Are your outer and inner pads wearing evenly? This is the 0.8 or 0.6mm ones? Any issues with your dust boot/seals going on the stock calipers?


Sometimes they wear evenly, sometimes they don't. I swap in new pads when the outer pad is worn to 50% thickness (~6.5mm) and I have track days planned. I swap the half-worn pads back in as needed when I don't have any track days planned. I did that a couple of weeks ago as my next HPDE event is probably not until early November and my front pads were down to 2+mm after Laguna Seca. 

I have the 0.8mm heat shields. I have no idea how well they will fit with new pads yet.

I have replaced the dust seals once, and probably ought to do it again after this season. I have 37 track days on the car currently with another 6 planned for this year.


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## burgerkong (Jan 27, 2016)

Cliff3 said:


> Sometimes they wear evenly, sometimes they don't. I swap in new pads when the outer pad is worn to 50% thickness (~6.5mm) and I have track days planned. I swap the half-worn pads back in as needed when I don't have any track days planned. I did that a couple of weeks ago as my next HPDE event is probably not until early November and my front pads were down to 2+mm after Laguna Seca.
> 
> I have the 0.8mm heat shields. I have no idea how well they will fit with new pads yet.
> 
> I have replaced the dust seals once, and probably ought to do it again after this season. I have 37 track days on the car currently with another 6 planned for this year.


Thanks! He has only 0.8mm available at the moment, I may bed in my pads and rotors and run without the shields first just to get a baseline temp (plus worried that they may be too thick with new pads). Going to 3D print a duct extension as well, will see if I can make a better scoop without having to resort to actual ducts/hoses.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Reviving this thread. We have a few things we've made for our own track cars and could make them production for street cars and customers like you. Would there be any interest? Price would be competitive to OEM solutions and would be bigger than what's out there.


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## 2016vwturbo (Dec 18, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Reviving this thread. We have a few things we've made for our own track cars and could make them production for street cars and customers like you. Would there be any interest? Price would be competitive to OEM solutions and would be bigger than what's out there.


Dude, there’s a market for ANYTHING APR makes….


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