# Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket



## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

The setup I'm using is a 3A (Audi 80 2.0L 4 cyl. 8v) block with a 9A (2.0L 16v) head. I'm using undercut ARP head studs and a metal headgasket, both purchased from MJM Autohaus.
After running at normal operating temp., the headgasket starts leaking oil out of the front of the motor (possibly in the cylinders too). It doesn't leak until everything heats up. This is a fresh motor that I just got running last night.
I'm assuming the headgasket is leaking due to improper torque spec; although, I tightened the nuts in the correct sequence and in the correct stages: 30 ft/lbs, 44 ft/lbs, 80 ft/lbs.
What I'm a bit confused with is the card I got with the ARP studs states: Following the manufacturers recommended torque sequence tighten the nuts in three equal steps to 80 ft lbs with ARP MOLY ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT.
According to the manual, the third step says to tighten an extra 1/2 turn. Tightening to 80 ft/lbs was only an extra 1/4 turn.
Should I follow the manual, and torque another 1/4 turn? Or, is there a different torque spec when using a metal headgasket with the ARP studs? Or, is my leaking headgasket caused by a different problem?
Undercut studs shouldn't have to be retorqued, correct?
Any help is very appreciated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks!


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (PunchTheFish)*

Any suggestions?


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (PunchTheFish)*

I'd think you may have another problem. First off the additional 1/2 turn in the manual is only for the OEM torque to yield 'stretch' bolts. In following the manufacture torque sequence, ARP just means to follow the sequence for torquing head stud #1 to #10 in order. You do not need the additional 1/2 turn for ARP studs.
I always torque ARP head studs/nuts to 75-80ft/lbs with 3 layer metal MLS headgaskets. No issues for me but with MLS gaskets you have to be sure the head and deck surface are both true. If you are already to 80ft/lbs and leaking when warm, I hate to say it but I think you may have another issue.


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (radoboy)*

Great, thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif. I think their wording confused me a bit. Both surfaces are true. The head is a Vw reman. and the block was just recently done. I was using an OLLLLLLD Snap-On torque wrench; possibly not quite accurate anymore (although, I don't think a few lbs. would make a difference).
Any thoughts on what would cause leaking once warmed up?


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (PunchTheFish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PunchTheFish* »_Great, thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif. I think their wording confused me a bit. Both surfaces are true. The head is a Vw reman. and the block was just recently done. I was using an OLLLLLLD Snap-On torque wrench; possibly not quite accurate anymore (although, I don't think a few lbs. would make a difference).
Any thoughts on what would cause leaking once warmed up?

No prob at all. I'd first try another torque wrench which you know to be accurate. With these MLS gaskets a few lbs off can cause weird things to happen. You may be able to go a bit tighter, but I have never had to on multiple MLS gaskets with ARP studs. If you torque it with another tq wrench, and you still have the problem, one of 3 things is happening in my opinion. 1) Head not true 2) Block not true 3) HG defective/damaged/trash between HG/head/block. Hopefully it isn't any of those, but you never know. Is it leaking in multiple places or just 1? Not sure that it matters but I am curious.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (radoboy)*

Are you using an ABA head gasket? check out this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3601412


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (sp_golf)*

its nice to go across all the bolts 3 times at the final torque spec cause some dont always torque all the way cause the first one you torque to 80 is pulling down alot more than the last one thats already got 9 smashing the gasket. 
i know its a must to do that for VR...the very first one (in order of tightening them) wasnt quite there when i went across the 2nd time.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

I just put my head on last night, ARP headstuds and 2 oem ABA headgaskets, torqued them to 85 ft/lbs like the instructions said, and make sure you go back over them, my middle ones needed to be tighetned after I worked my way out, although this may be due to my extra gasket compressing


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (GoingUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoingUp* »_I just put my head on last night, ARP headstuds and 2 oem ABA headgaskets, torqued them to 85 ft/lbs like the instructions said, and make sure you go back over them, my middle ones needed to be tighetned after I worked my way out, although this may be due to my extra gasket compressing

it might have been from the gaskets but usually its cause thier not all equally torqued. 
now that i remembered...i did an aba with head studs (still got them too) and i didnt have a single issue. i had the head resurfaced when i worked at the machine shop. 
since you gotta pull it off anyway, do that and run a straight edge across the head and block across different points to see if both are straight....block usually dont warp.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

no, they're equally torqued, when I was running over them the middle ones torqued down more after I hit the outside. I'm not pulling the head again, its straight and I'm keeping it on and its going into my jetta hillclimb car with about 10psi to start with in conjunction with a c2 chip, 42lb injectors and a 3" maf sensor. Hopefully I'll be up to 19psi before the season's out but the stock clutch won't like that. My street gti with a similar motor that's going to be on megasquirt will get a spec clutch though


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

Thanks a lot for all the info and suggestions guys








I just borrowed an accurate torque wrench from a friend, so hopefully after retorquing the nuts I'll have some postive results. I'll post up as soon as I get to it.
One more thing; metal headgaskets are reusable, right? The one I'm using has been torqued down a few times, but has only seen one heat cycle so far.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (PunchTheFish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PunchTheFish* »_Thanks a lot for all the info and suggestions guys








I just borrowed an accurate torque wrench from a friend, so hopefully after retorquing the nuts I'll have some postive results. I'll post up as soon as I get to it.
One more thing; metal headgaskets are reusable, right? The one I'm using has been torqued down a few times, but has only seen one heat cycle so far.

Metal MLS HGs still compress, just less than a fiber gasket. I'd view them as a one time use part.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Correct Torque Spec?: Undercut ARP Head Stud & Metal Headgasket (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_Are you using an ABA head gasket? check out this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3601412

Wasn't sure if this was directed to me...but if so yes I am running an ABA 3 layer (MLS) metal headgasket on my 9A with no probs at all. It has been through hell and back







.


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: (radoboy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radoboy* »_Metal MLS HGs still compress, just less than a fiber gasket. I'd view them as a one time use part.

Makes sense; I forget where I saw it, but I've read over a few threads stating they can be reused. That may have also been a different type of metal headgasket though.
Here's one I purchased: http://www.mjmautohaus.com/cat...=1440


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (PunchTheFish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PunchTheFish* »_
Makes sense; I forget where I saw it, but I've read over a few threads stating they can be reused. That may have also been a different type of metal headgasket though.
Here's one I purchased: http://www.mjmautohaus.com/cat...=1440

Copper HGs can be reused a few times. I prefer MLS gaskets (like the one you got) and always run a new one for each use. I'm sure people have reused MLS gaskets before, but I'd feel more comfortable with a new HG in there. If the new torque wrench doesn't fix the leak, and you have exhausted all other options, I'd look into replacing the HG with a new one.


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: (radoboy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radoboy* »_
Copper HGs can be reused a few times. I prefer MLS gaskets (like the one you got) and always run a new one for each use. I'm sure people have reused MLS gaskets before, but I'd feel more comfortable with a new HG in there. If the new torque wrench doesn't fix the leak, and you have exhausted all other options, I'd look into replacing the HG with a new one.


I hear ya. I think I'm gonna order another just in case. It can't hurt to keep a spare. I have a new fiber one also; think that would be good for a low boost application (7 - 10 psi)?


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (PunchTheFish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PunchTheFish* »_
I hear ya. I think I'm gonna order another just in case. It can't hurt to keep a spare. I have a new fiber one also; think that would be good for a low boost application (7 - 10 psi)?

Cool deal. I always prefer multi layer steel gaskets over fiber for boosted apps, but I don't think 7-10psi would be a prob from a fiber gasket. What would happen if you do fiber then decide you want to run say 25psi







? I don't wanna steer you wrong so I'd recommend the MLS gasket if possible.


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: (radoboy)*








Very true! I'm getting another metal gasket from MJM.
Turns out I did get the motor running great again last night (and moving around!), and this time no external leaks! Torqued the studs down again, probably checked them 15+ times each, and everything seemed fine.
Unfortunately, now there's a slight amount of oil leaking into the cylinders. Time for another new headgasket.


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## redpig (Mar 29, 2004)

I dont think you want an aba head gasket since bore size is different, 3a and 9a take the same gasket since they have the same spec besides copm ratio, aba is different because I think its a smaller bore, aba gets its 2.0 because of a larger stroke than a 3a, 3a has a smaller stroke but a bigger bore thats how it gets its 2.0


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (redpig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redpig* »_I dont think you want an aba head gasket since bore size is different, 3a and 9a take the same gasket since they have the same spec besides copm ratio, aba is different because I think its a smaller bore, aba gets its 2.0 because of a larger stroke than a 3a, 3a has a smaller stroke but a bigger bore thats how it gets its 2.0

3A has 82.5mm bore
9A has 82.5mm bore
ABA has 82.5mm bore
2L FSI has 82.5mm bore
All have the same 92.8mm stroke.


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## PunchTheFish (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: (radoboy)*

Nope, going with the 9A/3A metal headgasket offered by MJM. Still waiting on it; really though it would be here by now... or at least a tracking number.

_Quote, originally posted by *radoboy* »_All have the same 92.8mm stroke.

How about that, that's new to me. I thought the ABA had a different stroke too.


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## redpig (Mar 29, 2004)

sorry, cranks are the same, rods on an aba are 159mm, 3a and 9a are 144, aba gets larger stroke from the rods


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