# Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V



## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

Hi all, I
I did search but unfortunately the search engine doesn't like "1.8T", "1.8 T" and so on. 
It looks like most people on vortex.com run MSnS-Extra version 3, I was wondering if this is the right setup for my application. 
It's AWW motor that I'm looking to install in my MK II Golf race car and run using MS. I want MS to control both fuel and spark, I want ms to run stock coil packs. I'm going to use 2.0 cable TB from the automatic jetta that has TPS. 
Iif anybody could directed me to documented MS installs for 1.8T I would really appreciate that.


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## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (PrezeS-E36)*

the last time i was lookin into the whole megasquirt setup no one had anything to drive the stock coil packs on the 1.8t this is over a year ago now. you could use ford edis setup from ford escort which would be a wasted spark but only single coil and run plug wires


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (yellerrado)*

That's what Patron suggested to run wasted spark coil with 16V plug wires, 
anybody wants to suggest donor car for coil and igniters, I remember corectly escort LX had coil like that any others ?


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## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (PrezeS-E36)*

not sure of others but you will see the coil setup in the escort.. early to mid 90's i guess.. you go to any junkyard and you will be sure to find it. pick up coil pack, edis unit, vr sensor and wheel for the whole deal.. harness would be nice too so you see what goes where


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (yellerrado)*

well, 1,8T allready has triger wheel 60-2 and VR, but i go look at coil and connector


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (PrezeS-E36)*

You originally mention stock 1.8T coil packs, but I know you were referring to stock COPs (Coil on plugs). There are a few that are running this setup, but more that are running wasted spark Coil packs using just the 60-2 Vr.
I will be running this setup eventually, but may start out initially as Coil pack using the 16v plug wires. There is really not much hardware mods to go from coil pack to COP.
Here are some things to help you out:
- V3 board is definitely what you want to run hands down. If you are building your own go for all the extras (Flyback for Low Imp Injectors, Vr circuit and Hall Circuits, etc). Really no more work and minimal cost to have a system that you can rearrange any which way. IMHO
- MSI/V3 board/MSnS -e code can drive pretty any ignition you want to run
- MS, now (as of V2.2 iirc) recommends the use of the VB921 High current Ignition Coil driver which you build right into the case (no more external ICMs). You need 1 of them for Dist, 2 for wasted spark and 4 for COPs** on a 4cyl (**See Note). That is pretty much the only hardware difference. When you generally buy a kit to assemble, it usually comes with 1 VB921, but you can order additional ones to wire up.
**There have been mixed reviews on using the different 1.8T COPs. Since there are a few variants, some report better success with some vs others. I already have the 3 wire AEB types but I am not sure they produce good results yet which is why I may start off with Coil Pack Wasted spark. I know of at least one person who is using the later 4 wire COPs on V3 board MSnS-e. Originally he was trying to use the later 3 wire COPs with 4 VB's, but had problems trying to get it to work properly (don't know exactly why though). You will need to verify that if you run the 4 wire COPs (if you even need to run VB's since the 4 wire COPs already have the ign control mod built into each coil).
I am no expert, but have done quite a bit of research as I was trying to decide on different ignition alternative for my setup. Hope that helps.
Shawn


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (sdezego)*

You can also run the stock coils in 'waste spark' pairs if you want. You just need two transistors to give a 5v pulse trigger with the later 4 pin coils or 4 VB921s for the AEB coils. 
As far as I know MS can't decode the stock cam sensor, so it's additional work to go true COP.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
As far as I know MS can't decode the stock cam sensor, so it's additional work to go true COP.

Is that just because of the similar deal as the VW Dist Hall where it goes low when triggered as opposed to sending a positive voltage pulse? Maybe just a matter of doing a similar pullup?
Shawn


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (sdezego)*

I'm pretty sure the 20v's use the same 4 different sized tooth cam wheel as the VR6's, not sure MS can decode that. Well I'm sure it could, with enough 'extra' work.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (need_a_VR6)*

My AEB has a 1 window wheel on the cam sensor. Not sure about the other 20Vs


_Modified by sdezego at 2:36 PM 11-17-2006_


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## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_My AEB has a 1 window wheel on the cam sensor. Not sure about the other 20Vs

_Modified by sdezego at 2:36 PM 11-17-2006_

i believe the one i had layin around was also a 1 window.. im not sure if its used for ignition as much as it is as a cam position for the variable tensioner.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Need suggestion on MegaSquirt setup for 1.8T 20V (yellerrado)*

On the AEB (i.e. non VVT) it is used as the second reference sensor. On the VVT is may be more complex, I have not had any of those apart.
S


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

done the above conversion into my mk1 cab uing msns extra v3 board
Ben


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

bump for more info


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (2mAn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2mAn* »_bump for more info

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif or a link to any existing thread.


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

if theres anything you want to know fire away im sure i can awnser your questions
as far as the ecu is concerned its a v3 board using msns-extra 029q2 code i have 2 vb921s firing the coilpack 
we used the cops to start with but were getting weird timing results so we swapped to the single pack with good results the car starts on the button
Ben


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

ohhh, ok. So you are not using the AEB coil on plugs then. That was my question.
Also, though i haven't seen any good 20v Ign Maps though I haven't looked all that hard yet. I generated a map using that Excel spread sheet on the MS site, but I am not sure I am happy with what it gave me. What map are you using.
To the orig poster, I hope this is not deviating too much from the info you were looking for.
Shawn


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

firstly no amount of searching will find a 20vt running megasquirt im afraid that mine is the one and only so far to run fuel and spark 
my maps have been started from scratch due to there being no others done you could take a 16v turbo map and adjust it to your setup to get a safe map then tune that map once on the road
i tried to use the 3 pin cops but they didnt do what i wanted them to do but there is another option if you have the 4 pin cops you can use them
basicaly the 4 pin cops have a built in ignitor so you wouldnt need the vb921s so you could do that 

to the original poster if you need info i can help i havnt really done a write up on it yet as we have the final map to do but as soon as its done ill do a write


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

Good stuff guys, keep it coming








mine has the 4 wire COPs , I was told to still go the coilpack - plug wires for better reliability - would you agree with that


_Modified by PrezeS-E36 at 9:32 PM 11-20-2006_


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (PrezeS-E36)*

If I had the 4 wires already in known good shape, then I would run them IMHO. You are talking about $100 for 16v Plug wires and then the price of a coil pack. 
Apparently, it is slightly more complicated even though you don't need to use the VB921's. The 4 wire coils apparently need a +5v trigger so you need to invert a couple of LED wires in MS.
The pics are not showing for some reason, but you can get the jist (near the bottom of the page in this thread).
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=27


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## 84MK1GTI (May 17, 2005)

*Re: (sdezego)*

just an idea but Patatron is working on a set up as i write this. he will be shipping my set up for my 1.8T very soon. i have found about 5 or 6 1.8t's on megasquirt. bens_cab was one of them. between ben and patatron you should be able to get all the info you need.


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

coilpack over here is only a few £ as good as the cops look id honestly look at a back up option the cops you have are arethe smart ignitoe type so you dont need the vb921s but you will need to either run them wasted spark so you have two spark outputs or you need a secondary trigger ie cas one window that way you can use the cops in the usual firing routine


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

So what would you choose for most reliable option ?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (PrezeS-E36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PrezeS-E36* »_So what would you choose for most reliable option ?

Coil packs have proven to be more reliable.


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

for reliabilty id go with a coilpack for looks and a cleam install it has to be cops 
im going to into the cops a bit more may get a chance to refit them once the car is fully mapped and see what the score is
the exact problem i had with the cops was even with a fixed angle the timing was advancing wildly so we tryed a few things but was unable to use them 
theres a difference between the 3 pin and 4 pin packs mine are 3 pin which means they should be dumb but i guess there not


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

Coilpack it is - I don't care about looks - it will go to my rally car - but I need reliable ignition so I can focus on other things


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

id also invet in a wideband then you can really fine tune it you will probbaly want it running a bit rich to start with then dial it in same with the ignition map just drive and tune get a buddy to drive whle you tinker


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

So isn't one of the MkIV O2's a wideband - thats what I was told


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (PrezeS-E36)*

yes, the front one. But you are still going to need a WB controller (i.e. innovate LC1, LM1, etc). There is a proto WB Controller you can build onto the MS board, but I don't know anyone who has DIY'ed it. For all out performance and reliability, I would go LM1 or LC1.


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## toyotec (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (sdezego)*

Hi there guys. 
When we were calibrating Bens Cabrio we used my portable Innovate LM-1 kit to establish all our base maps. Ben had a LC-1 installed and linked to the MS EMS but for some reason it was giving duff readings hence the reason for using the LM-1. I have been speaking to Pat on getting the OEM COP to work as it would make a cleaner install. I believe he should get it running before me and he is more local to you. So far Ben has been the first to get this system running on his 20vT for both fuel and spark. He used Coil packs from a Peugeot 106/206 and 16v leads. You can also use a late Zetec coil pack if you want to run the 16v leads. The coil packs where the only non VAG part in this application so far as well as the harness. To date the car is still working no problems.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (toyotec)*

The link that I posted above shows the COPs running on a 20v hybrid. He had even posted the mods that were necessary to the board for the 4 wire COPs run as wasted spark.

As far as the LM-1 vs LC1 goes:
1.) did you do the Mod to MS necessary for the LC1? I think it adds a cap or something. This is not necessary for the LM1 (Search the Innovate User Forum)
2.) iirc, the LM1 is fully differential (like the LMA-3) and the LC1 is not. This means that you have to be very critical about grounds or you can get ground offsets.
Shawn


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## toyotec (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (sdezego)*

In a word no. The LM-1 was not linked to the EMS and was fully independant.
Pictures did not show in the link you gave, but from what the chap did I would say this similar to what I was aiming for as the coils have their own drivers on both 3pin and 4. So no need for VB921s.


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## toyotec (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (sdezego)*

Great project you got going there dude. Just clicked on your link.
I like the modification done to the crank timing gear. 
Well done!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (toyotec)*

Thanks!


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

heanzel is the guy with the other 20vt ms i remember being bombarded with emails from him asking about the wiring and the cops good to see hes got his running too mine goes on the road monday 
let the fun begin
toyotec ill send you a vid of it in action once i tax it lol


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

Nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## toyotec (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

Nice one bruv...


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (bens_cab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bens_cab* »_heanzel is the guy with the other 20vt ms i remember being bombarded with emails from him asking about the wiring and the cops good to see hes got his running too mine goes on the road monday 
let the fun begin
toyotec ill send you a vid of it in action once i tax it lol

Yea, I recall him mentioning that you helped him out quite a bit in our IMs.
Also, I think I have read quite a few of your threads on the MS forum regarding COPs, 60-2 etc








If you have any of the final solutions and settings posted, would you mind throwing up the link(s)?
Thanks,
Shawn


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

anyone else done said conversion yet????
getting loads of questions regarding the wiring it may be good to awnser them on this thread


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

Not yet. Mine is going on my PG with Dist this weekend until I get my motor completed and then will go to 60-2 COP.


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

*Re: (sdezego)*

just some pics for you 
hopefully the cars will be going to toyotecs soon for mapping


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## PrezeS-E36 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (bens_cab)*

looks good
my is far behind but working hard on it
















more here
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2992728


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## 76 Golf GTi (Aug 24, 2001)

*Re: (PrezeS-E36)*

Bump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bens_cab (Oct 30, 2005)

hi guys finnaly got the cab mapped by toyotec a few weeks back running 7psi at the moment just so we can give the car a good shake down then it will be increased to 12 to 14psi which as much as the turbo can handle before it goes bang bhp 170bhp going to santapod this weekend for a show so will be doing a few runs on the strip 
also got some new boost pipes couple of pics for you


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