# Touareg Calipers on A3 8P



## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

Took me awhile to get around to it, but figured I would share my 330mm Touareg (Cayenne V6 or Euro Off Road Package) calipers. Bolt on using JHMotorsports hardware, B7 RS4 brake lines, and Mercedes ML350 rotors with a milled down hubcentric ring for the rotor. Total cost (not including calipers) was $350. 

Unfortunately, my OEM A3 Ti package rims have pretty bad caliper clearance, so even with 12mm spacers, I had to grind off a small amount of extraneous material from the caliper. Looks worse than it is 

I was going to also install Golf R rear 310mm vented brakes, but surprisingly enough I'm quite happy with the brake bias at the moment. Pads are Hawk Ceramic as this is my daily driver and I have Carbotech XP12 left over from my S4 if I want to get aggressive. 

The 350mm Cayenne calipers actually have better clearance than the 330 with my stock 18" rims since the caliper is a little farther away from the hub, and there is less curvature on the spokes. 

Pedal feel is good, braking is far improved and more consistent. Things will get polished up and then repainted on the car (no powder coat for now).


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

looks good too bad they didnt fit under oem w/o mod


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## skatevolcom2006 (Apr 18, 2008)

Interesting.

How flush are your wheels sitting now? Do you think you could have cleared using a 15mm spacer?

I have been researching brakes for the last couple weeks and have pondered on doing the Cayanne setup with the ML350's. What did you end up paying for the calipers?


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

I guess it's function over form for you. Personally, I would rather eat a turd sandwich than install calipers in that condition.


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## Ponto (Jan 11, 2012)

Uber-A3 said:


> I guess it's function over form for you. Personally, I would rather eat a turd sandwich than install calipers in that condition.


Well I imagine they weren't in that condition when he started lol. 

I would do my best to try and get them to fit as well... Looked like you only needed another 5mm maybe more. Still they are sweet brakes and once they are cleaned up it will be awesome. :thumbup:


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## RedLineRob (Feb 8, 2009)

Uber-A3 said:


> I guess it's function over form for you. Personally, I would rather eat a turd sandwich than install calipers in that condition.


i wonder if all that grinding and removing of metal, will ruin the over all strength and integrity of the caliper under pressure?


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

Uber-A3 said:


> I guess it's function over form for you. Personally, I would rather eat a turd sandwich than install calipers in that condition.


I been to their production area. They have a few milling machines. I would just run the mill over it and make it look even hehe


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

I'm very familiar with these brakes and their dimensions, etc. It's a huge monoblock of aluminum and there is more than 10mm of material left. It's superficial; as I said, it looks worse than it was, but I had to get home and I wanted to show people what might be necessary if they go this route with OEM wheels. I would happily throw my track pads on here and hit some sessions at Laguna Seca, safety is not a concern. I removed 3mm of material.

15mm spacer would have cleared, but my wheels are as flush as I want them to be. Rims are stock ET52. 

There is no worry or harm of performance; they will be cleaned up and no one would even know I did it. Also, just because I have access to mills and lathes doesn't mean it's easy to setup a pair of brake calipers on there. We run our machines 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, with weeks of backorders.

You can kind of see the "flushness" of the front wheel:


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## Ponto (Jan 11, 2012)

Raacerx said:


> I'm very familiar with these brakes and their dimensions, etc. It's a huge monoblock of aluminum and there is more than 10mm of material left. It's superficial; as I said, it looks worse than it was, but I had to get home and I wanted to show people what might be necessary if they go this route with OEM wheels. I would happily throw my track pads on here and hit some sessions at Laguna Seca, safety is not a concern. I removed 3mm of material.
> 
> 15mm spacer would have cleared, but my wheels are as flush as I want them to be. Rims are stock ET52.
> 
> ...


aw dang the extra bit woulda been fine! haha My preference anyways. Still got a bit of room. However its of course your car and your flushness! I look forward to seeing them all done! 

Also if you are close enough to go to Laguna I hate you.


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

It's really just the wheel choice; just about any aftermarket rim for this car has better rim clearance. 

In fact, my ugly stock 17's have better clearance as the spokes aren't concave. 

But the A3 Ti 5 spoke rims are my dream wheels. I probably would have trimmed a tiny bit off the caliper even with 15mm spacers for piece of mind. I don't like the idea of bending a rim and taking out my caliper. 

To whoever asked, I've had these brakes for years on my B5 S4 but it was totaled, so I swapped them over. I paid $200 for the pair, but that was before everyone and their mom started to buy them up.


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

EDIT: Was just a bad wheel bearing. Back to great braking, everything fixed. 


I wanted to post an update about my experience with running 17Z Touareg calipers and the ML350 rotors. 

After about 15,000 miles, I've begun to have some odd issues. For 15k miles, the brakes performed wonderfully (albeit I can't get rid of a squeal around 20mph), but recently I started to get weird rubbing on the rotors. You can feel it in the floor board and you can hear it with the windows down, especially when cornering. But the brakes feel solid, no pulsing. 

Turns out the rotor is now periodically rubbing against the horizontal posts that the brake pads rest against. I'm very confused as to what could have changed. My first thought was a wheel bearing, but we can't find any slop at all. I ground the posts back a bit and it improved, but then came back. It now appears it is rubbing on the other side as well, even though there is more space. 

It also appears that the ML350 rotor isn't 100% centered within the Touareg caliper, which exaggerates the problem and the rubbing has caused a ring around the rotor face. 

However, I can't find anything loose at all. The only thing left is that perhaps the ball joint has gone, and is allowing the rotor to rub against the ball joint; but that doesn't explain why the rotor itself would periodically rub against the caliper.


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

mabe the rotor spacer is bad?


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

tp.wannabe.s3 said:


> mabe the rotor spacer is bad?


Maybe he should've done R32 brakes instead?


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## neu318 (Feb 18, 2003)

Personally I don't like the way they came out, If I had to run the calipers like that I would atleast get them painted so you can't see the grind marks. Also If I knew I had to do that much grinding I probably wouldn't have used them. But to each their own, I'm not trying to bash you just giving my opinion.


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## Grey D (Mar 3, 2009)

Not trying to be a hater but aside from the R32 conversion I don't get all these franken-brake kits. You're just totally upsetting the balance of the car for really no performance gains, maybe some better heat dissipation, but the unsprung weight has to be worse and the brake bias has to be awful. I feel like it just makes so much more sense to either upgrade pads, rotors, lines and fluid, or get a proven BBK.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Grey D said:


> You're just totally upsetting the balance of the car for really no performance gains, maybe some better heat dissipation, but the unsprung weight has to be worse and the brake bias has to be awful. I feel like it just makes so much more sense to either upgrade pads, rotors, lines and fluid, or get a proven BBK.


I'm also not trying to be a hater, rather I'm trying to prove a point: 

Have you ever driven a car with a "Franken-brake" kit? You just made all of that stuff up . . . you have no idea if the balance is upset, and no idea if there are actually "no performance gains", and no idea about the unsprung mass. Do you even know if those calipers have more clamping force than the stock ones? Making ridiculous blanket claims based on zero data is what makes the internet mostly a collective of derivative stupidity.

Most race cars - read not the big-budget backed teams - have what you call Franken-brake setups, but since most successful racers don't make vehicle-tweaking decisions based on guesses on the internet, they can determine what works via actually trying stuff. Now, I didn't use any data in my claims below either, but I've had several Franken-brake kits, and held all of this exact stuff mentioned in this thread in my hands. Although it's mostly based on pad compound and rubber, I'll guarantee that his braking distance has decreased from stock, and I bet those calipers also weigh less than the stockers. Furthermore, he can toss some two-piece rotors on next, and drop several more kg of rotating mass. His brake cooling will also be greatly increased, which is the most important thing to brake 'performance'. I can weigh it all for you, and log some brake temps and report back when I get my kit put on. 

If the OP really cares about the brake bias, which is likely only going to matter in high-speed trail-braking on a road course, he can sort that out with additional parts, e.g., proportioning valve, pad selection, spring rates, or even a brake kit altogether. Although, he stated right in his original post that he's pretty happy with the bias; and, I've never had a significant bias issue with a Franken-brake kit...


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

jbrehm said:


> I'm also not trying to be a hater, rather I'm trying to prove a point:
> 
> Have you ever driven a car with a "Franken-brake" kit? You just made all of that stuff up . . . you have no idea if the balance is upset, and no idea if there are actually "no performance gains", and no idea about the unsprung mass. Do you even know if those calipers have more clamping force than the stock ones? Making ridiculous blanket claims based on zero data is what makes the internet mostly a collective of derivative stupidity.
> 
> ...


I agree whole heartedly with your post here, but there's "Franken-Brake Kits" and then there's "Why the **** did you do that?". The latter is what I feel about the OP's Franken-Brake kit component choice here. I don't understand the logic behind choosing the parts he chose to do this job when I know for a FACT there are other components out there that WILL fit the car and the offset to accomplish what he wants to get done. All it takes is a little research. 
*
NOTE: I am NOT advocating that he do what I did to accomplish his goal nor am I stating my solution is better. I have to note this because too many people on the Internet forums get all hyped up and respond stupidly by putting words in my mouth.*


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## Fellow Gaucho (Aug 3, 2011)

davis_449 said:


> Maybe he should've done R32 brakes instead?


in b4 tp says dey heavy.


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

r32 damn heavy adds like 20+ lbs per side 

im wanting to go 328 stotech kit now.


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

tp.wannabe.s3 said:


> r32 damn heavy adds like 20+ lbs per side
> 
> im wanting to go 328 stotech kit now.


TP's right. I could've saved the weight. However, with the coilover change to H&R, I neither gained nor lost much unsprung weight from before. If anything the front unsprung weight went up due to the brake upgrade (didn't touch the rears). Those ****ing piece of **** ST's were HEAVY. The H&R's, by far, are lighter. I went R32 for cost reasons, not pure performance. Obviously, I would've done Stoptech, Brembo, Porsche for track oriented performance. I just needed something that could everyday STOP my ****ing car.


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

I don't care about R32 brakes (they suck anyways) and I don't care about peoples impression about whether this was a wise choice. The calipers were shaved because the stock Titanium rims have horrible clearance and I only had 12mm spacers. Any aftermarket rim would install without the need for trimming the caliper. Since these were installed at 12am at night and I had to drive home, the original trimming was rough. Also, these are HUGE monoblock calipers. I have measurements of piston depth and everything here so there was no worry of removing too much material. The total material removed was about a 1/16th of an inch. The pictures make it look more aggressive. 

As far as brake bias.... While these brakes are considerably larger with more pad contact area, leverage, and pistons...the braking performance is incredible and is far improved over the stockers which faded quite easily on track pads. I have a set of Golf R rear brakes I am installing to compensate, but in all honesty, it's not very noticeable compared to my B5 which really needed a rear upgrade to feel balanced again. I also don't track my A3 much, I have a race car for that. 

Oh and the frankebrake comment... You really think your Stoptech kit has any engineering specific to your car in it beyond a rotor and an adapter? Stoptech makes 2 front calipers, a 4 piston and a 6 piston. You think they make a caliper specifically for your vehicle? No. They make an adapter and they make a rotor hat to space your rotor for the hub. They use the same rotor size and same caliper for hundreds and hundreds of vastly different brake balanced vehicles.

The point of my post was to educate people about the potential issues of going this route. If you don't think this route is a good idea, great, don't do it. For those that are wondering, they can see all of the issues that came up.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

When you said that your stock 17" wheels had better clearance, do you know if they will actually fit over the 17Z? I know you can't be sure if you haven't tried it, but whatever input you can give me is appreciated. I have the wheels below for Winters, and am hoping they'll fit without too big of a spacer...


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

jbrehm said:


> When you said that your stock 17" wheels had better clearance, do you know if they will actually fit over the 17Z? I know you can't be sure if you haven't tried it, but whatever input you can give me is appreciated. I have the wheels below for Winters, and am hoping they'll fit without too big of a spacer...


They should. My stockers (I have the ugly 3.2 5 spoke for my winter wheels) and they actually fit BETTER than my titanium 18" rims because there isn't any curvature of the spokes on the original 17" and the 18"s have a bit more. You'll still need a spacer but 12mm is likely more than enough. 

I'll post some pictures of the caliper all cleaned up too. Unless you had another caliper next to mine, you wouldn't know anymore. Just need to get them powder coated, so I'll probably throw on the stock brakes for a few weeks while that is going on, and try to address my potentially bad wheel bearings as well.


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

UPDATE: Turns out I'm just an idiot and it was indeed a very worn wheel bearing. 

Back to great performance, quiet, wonderful, predictable, happy. 

I'm finally going to get around to doing the R32/Golf R rear brake conversion soon as well. Funny how the blue MKV R32 calipers/carrier are so much cheaper than the black TTS caliper/carrier.

Also...last night on my commute home, I was going about 85mph when someone cut me off, no blinker. Full on ABS slam on brakes. I forgot how authoritatively the car stops with these hunking monsters.


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## npace (Sep 3, 2012)

Hold on there.... you promised pics of the caliper all cleaned up.... where are they?


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Raacerx said:


> Oh and the frankebrake comment... You really think your Stoptech kit has any engineering specific to your car in it beyond a rotor and an adapter? Stoptech makes 2 front calipers, a 4 piston and a 6 piston. You think they make a caliper specifically for your vehicle? No. They make an adapter and they make a rotor hat to space your rotor for the hub. They use the same rotor size and same caliper for hundreds and hundreds of vastly different brake balanced vehicles.


Different size pistons are offered for each application, even if the caliper size is the same.

For instance on the 328mm A3 kit, it uses 34-38mm pistons. For the 355mm kit, they use 34-36mm pistons. 

For a 332mm B5 S4 kit, the same ST-40 caliper uses 38-42mm pistons. 

Dave


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

crew219 said:


> Different size pistons are offered for each application, even if the caliper size is the same.
> 
> For instance on the 328mm A3 kit, it uses 34-38mm pistons. For the 355mm kit, they use 34-36mm pistons.
> 
> ...


I was mainly trying to point out that I do not believe brake companies go physically test every single combination of brake choices they offer. I'm saying they calculate it based on dimensions, and choose the brake components appropriately so as to not disrupt f/r braking balance. Since braking balance is really a personal thing anyways, they are just trying to adhere to factory specifications, which I certainly do not feel are necessarily ideal for everyone. 

Also, perhaps I've just had weird luck, but every ST40 caliper I have compared (from two difference vehicle makes) had the same piston diameter combination. From my experience, all the piston diameters correlate with rotor width and thickness as well. IE; I've never seen a 28mm piston on a 332x32 rotor'ed ST40. I think the change in fluid displacement is generally so minor that it's not a concern. The vast majority of people cannot tell if their brakes have 10mm longer throw than before, and discrepancies during bleeding along with brake line choice can change that even more.

Have you physically seen the difference in piston size in a given ST caliper? I have not, besides the 6 piston caliper using a different combination of sizes compared to a ST40 of course.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Raacerx said:


> I was mainly trying to point out that I do not believe brake companies go physically test every single combination of brake choices they offer. I'm saying they calculate it based on dimensions, and choose the brake components appropriately so as to not disrupt f/r braking balance. Since braking balance is really a personal thing anyways, they are just trying to adhere to factory specifications, which I certainly do not feel are necessarily ideal for everyone.
> 
> Also, perhaps I've just had weird luck, but every ST40 caliper I have compared (from two difference vehicle makes) had the same piston diameter combination. From my experience, all the piston diameters correlate with rotor width and thickness as well. IE; I've never seen a 28mm piston on a 332x32 rotor'ed ST40. I think the change in fluid displacement is generally so minor that it's not a concern. The vast majority of people cannot tell if their brakes have 10mm longer throw than before, and discrepancies during bleeding along with brake line choice can change that even more.
> 
> Have you physically seen the difference in piston size in a given ST caliper? I have not, besides the 6 piston caliper using a different combination of sizes compared to a ST40 of course.


Are you saying that stop tech lies when they put the specifications of each caliper on their website? 

What do you think Brembo does when they make calipers that are use on multiple vehicles? You don't think they adjust the bore of the pistons? 

Dave


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

crew219 said:


> Are you saying that stop tech lies when they put the specifications of each caliper on their website?


Yes, Dave, they are LIARS.


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## Tcardio (Mar 19, 2009)

Uber-A3 said:


> I guess it's function over form for you. Personally, I would rather eat a turd sandwich than install calipers in that condition.


this^^^

I know you are trying something new but... :screwy:
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Wait...I guess I'm not done. You take an older car and buy some newer rotors and then purchase some nice brakes but don't do the research on how to fit them. Then you just wing it and beat the visual and mechanical sh*t out of them. Frankly, it's wayward and I am insulted. Everybody is always welcome to join this forum but please use the immense knowledge that is available to you and ask for advice before you do another absolute botch job


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

tcardio said:


> this^^^
> 
> I know you are trying something new but... :screwy:
> .
> ...


dood this guy works at 034motorsports he is as tech there so he shuold know what he is talkin about based on his experience working there


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## Tcardio (Mar 19, 2009)

tp.wannabe.s3 said:


> dood this guy works at 034motorsports he is as tech there so he shuold know what he is talkin about based on his experience working there


that just makes it even worse. :facepalm:


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

tp.wannabe.s3 said:


> dood this guy works at 034motorsports he is as tech there so he shuold know what he is talkin about based on his experience working there


:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

I'm not a tech, never have been, don't claim to be by any means. 

The brakes work great. In fact, they are awesome. My wheel choice forced me to roughly remove superficial material from the brake caliper. If you've ever actually seen these calipers, they are very overbuilt, certainly nothing like a lightweight aftermarket caliper, and I already knew where the cavity was in relation to the exterior. It's an OEM caliper from a 6000 pound Touareg. Just about any other wheel choice would have negated any caliper modification, but I like my Ti wheels and the calipers could be aesthetically fixed. I could have simply run a larger spacer, but I don't want my wheels spaced out more. 

This isn't a 2013 Audi A3 I just went and spent $40,000 on... It's a 2006 Audi A3 that has over 160,000 miles and I beat the **** out of it. I bought it for way under $10k last year, and I've put 25k miles on it in this year alone. Mechanically and performance wise, the car is in perfect condition. Aesthetically, much could be improved, including body damage along the entire passenger side. I wasn't going for something like a Stoptech or Brembo kit that maintains brake bias either, because I had these brakes sitting in my garage. I'm also doing R32/TTS rear brakes which should even things out to right where I want. For now, the difference in bias is from stock is far less noticeable than it was on my S4 before I went from 256 to 300mm rear rotors. Trust me, I push my vehicles, and these brakes have over 20,000 miles on them on the A3. The only issue was the wheel bearing. 

If your concerned about my comments with regards to other brake manufacturers, I'm not saying there aren't different piston sizes within a given caliper, I'm saying that's still just a calculation that is done to mimic factory bias. That's not going out and actually testing things in the real world. I have this brake kit on my own car, tracked, abused, daily driven. Argue all you want about my aesthetic choices. 

Touareg Calipers : $160
RS4 brake lines : $75
Hawk pads : $100
Mercedes ML350 rotors : $100
Hubcentric rings : $10
Hardware : $75

Grand Total : $360


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## SoSoA3 (Sep 10, 2012)

Just throwing this out there but if you want to correct the brake bias and would like to retrofit some rear cayenne/ touareg 330mm 4 piston calipers onto your a3 I'm selling some custom made mounting brackets made in a group buy a while ago. Here's my fs link http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6852564-Cayenne-4-piston-330mm-rear-bbk-retrofit-(mounting-brackets-only).


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## SoSoA3 (Sep 10, 2012)

.


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## Ponto (Jan 11, 2012)

SoSoA3 said:


> .


Is THAT SO?


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## SoSoA3 (Sep 10, 2012)

Ponto said:


> Is THAT SO?


Haha it was a double post


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

SoSoA3 said:


> Just throwing this out there but if you want to correct the brake bias and would like to retrofit some rear cayenne/ touareg 330mm 4 piston calipers onto your a3 I'm selling some custom made mounting brackets made in a group buy a while ago. Here's my fs link http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6852564-Cayenne-4-piston-330mm-rear-bbk-retrofit-(mounting-brackets-only).


That's not going to correct the bias difference, that's way too much brake in the rear. You would need a brake bias adjuster. 

A 300mm rear TTS/Golf R/MKv R32 should be perfect.


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## SoSoA3 (Sep 10, 2012)

Raacerx said:


> That's not going to correct the bias difference, that's way too much brake in the rear. You would need a brake bias adjuster.
> 
> A 300mm rear TTS/Golf R/MKv R32 should be perfect.


How do you figure if these are calipers from a cayenne/ touareg? They come with 6piston 17z or 18z front calipers and 4 piston rears...I'm pretty sure that if you use all 4 corners from the original vehicle it's going to be the most balanced. But I'm not going to argue, awesome brake setup you got there :beer:!


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## Raacerx (Mar 24, 2006)

SoSoA3 said:


> How do you figure if these are calipers from a cayenne/ touareg? They come with 6piston 17z or 18z front calipers and 4 piston rears...I'm pretty sure that if you use all 4 corners from the original vehicle it's going to be the most balanced. But I'm not going to argue, awesome brake setup you got there :beer:!


Because you're comparing the brake bias from a Cayenne/Touareg to an A3, which doesn't come close to sharing the same front to rear weight distribution, suspension settings, and overall curb weight. 

A Cayenne runs close to a 50/50 weight distribution to begin with, compared to the near 60/40 distribution of the 3.2L A3. Therefore, putting the front brakes of the Cayenne on the A3 will require much less of a rear upgrade in order to maintain a near factory balance. While balance is once again personal preference, I've driven and tracked many front heavy VAG vehicles with a wide variety of braking combinations and over and over we've found that little rear brake is required due to the weight distribution of the front heavy chassis, be it a B5, 8P, MK2 TT, etc. This is exaggerated even more with a heavier engine like the VR6 versus a 2.0T. 

Another way to look at it is based on my personal experience. The 17Z 330mm calipers are almost identical in terms of real world outright braking power to the R32/S3/B7 S4 345mm front brakes. With that in mind, if you wanted to stick to factory bias as much as possible you would want to run whatever rear brake the S3 or R32 runs in the rear (since they share the same weight distribution about as my car). That is the 310mm rear brakes that I am installing on my car. Moving to the 350mm front rotors would push things a bit more forward, but not enough to skew things all crazy.

Running a 330mm rear rotor with a 330 front rotor, regardless of the number of rear pistons or their size, just won't work on a car with 60/40 weight distribution. It's also a TON of added unsprung and rotational weight. Next, not only are you using a gigantic rear rotor, but you're using a honking rear 4-piston caliper with a huge pad contact area. Finally, while running a larger volume front brake does very little in terms of affecting the brake pedal displacement, doing both a front and a rear will add some degree of noticeable change. The Cayenne/Touareg has significantly more displacement in its MC. 

Not trying to argue either, I'm just sharing my opinion and what I consider to be fairly extensive first hand experience.


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