# Power Steering Line Failure (corrosion) [TOC-done]



## Chris Milnes (Nov 4, 2008)

*Check your engines*

My 2003 W12 has developed an unexpected fault.
I am told my power steering has failed because a pressurised metal pipe has corroded, fractured as a result and deposited the PAS fluid on the road, causing the pump to run dry.
Those of you used to rummaging around your engine bays may consider it prudent to check your hydraulic pipes are not corroding - repair is very expensive (no shock there then).
Chris


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Chris,
Sorry to hear about that. Good tip for others.
Are you still covered by Warranty Direct (you had 15 months cover from last Jan from your last post on that, I think) and if so are they being co-operative on this?
PETER M


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## Chris Milnes (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PeterMills)*

Rather disappointingly they have declined cover.
They rely on the full policy document (not the summary of cover they actually sent me) which excludes breakdown caused by frost, water,freezing liquids, carbon build up, corrosion, oxidation, blockages...and more.
Chris


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Chris,
Sorry to hear that. I have posted back on:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4280979 
about this. The VW Mondial Assistance insurance appears to have a similar exclusion. 
I am going to specifically ask my VW garage at future services to check all pressurised metal PAS pipework for corrosion - thanks for alerting us to the potential problem. 
You don't happen to have a shot of the pipe that failed do you, or an idea of its location? 
PETER M


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## deepak.tripathi (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Chris,
Are you in a position to tell us how much it cost you to get your car fixed? I have a late 2004 3.2 Phaeton that has done just 20000 miles and is parked outdoors in my private car park.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Hi Chris:
Thanks for reporting this service difficulty. 
I would be very grateful if you could supply some photos. If you are not sure how to post them, just email them to me and I will look after posting them. Click on my username (to the left) to reveal my email address.
Michael


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## Chris Milnes (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

E mail sent.
Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Below is the illustration that Chris sent me, showing the part that failed in a light green colour.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Attached below are some additional pictures from Chris that show where the tube failed. 
Michael
*Complete tube assembly*








*Location of failure*








*Corrosion on swaged fitting*


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Did the corrosion come from the inside or the outside ?
If it came from the inside, it is easy to see the damage now that the pipe has burst. But would there have been anything to see just 10 minutes before it did ?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Concerning the corrosion in the fracture area that is visible on the second photo, I suspect that is exfoliation or intergranular corrosion, both of which would be visible on detailed inspection of the surface.
There is also ample evidence of uniform corrosion on the swaged fitting in the third picture. Although I doubt that the corrosion on the swaged fitting contributed to the failure, I think it is safe to say that if you notice this (very evident) corrosion on the fitting, it would then be a good idea to make a much more careful inspection of the rest of the pipe assembly. Note also the ample evidence of corrosion visible under the paint on the tube to the left of the swaged fitting (bottom photo). I suspect that the fracture area would have appeared much the same prior to the failure.
Exfoliation corrosion is common in bent areas of metal pipes. It is noteworthy that the fracture occurred in a bend. My guess is that the straight sections of this same pipe are not affected.
Michael


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Do you think it is it possible for owners, or their service engineers, to inspect this pipe in situ? 
PETER M


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (PeterMills)*

Hi Peter:
I don't know. The W12 engine compartment is really, really crowded, and it is very difficult to get access to certain parts and components when the engine is installed.
In theory, it should be possible with an inspection mirror and a flashlight, but I will have to reserve judgment until the next time my vehicle is up on a lift and I can have a look underneath it.
For sure, I am going to ask the maintenance technician at my VW dealer to have a look at this pipe the next time I take my car in for an oil change. I'll print out the diagram and the pictures that you so thoughtfully provided and take these in with me.
I had a look through all of the pictures I took of my vehicle when the engine and transmission were removed (for the torque converter seal replacement), and I think I might have found the location of the pipe assembly - it appears to be behind the fender well liner of the front left wheel (note that I have a car with the driver seat on the left side). If this guess of mine is correct, then it should be pretty easy to inspect the tube - just remove the right front wheel (easy) and then remove the plastic fender well liner (also very easy).
Note that in the photo below, the engine and entire front suspension assembly has been removed from the vehicle.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 12:05 AM 5-20-2009_


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Thanks a million for all that. 
It was Chris who provided the pics, I am just asking the questions to which, as usual, you are giving very thorough and useful replies. 
PETER M


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (PeterMills)*

Ooooops...







I'll blame it on jet lag.
Sorry, Chris.
Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Hi guys,
I'm almost due for an oil change. Do you think I should ask my tech to inspect this pipe (tube?) as shown in the photo, or are we not yet sure that it is in fact the one in question? I'm also a bit confused as to whether I should ask him to look behind the left or right wheel well, or both? Thanks.
Regards,
Ron


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (remrem)*

Hi Ron:
Considering your location (Florida), and the fact that road salt is probably not used there very often, I would not bother.
The photo of my tube (a couple of posts up) was taken in 2007, when my car had about 35,000 miles - and three Canadian winters - on it. Note that my tube is aluminum, and Chris's tube (the one that failed) appears to be painted. This suggests a different material was used for his vehicle than was used for my vehicle. This could be due to the MY difference (2003 vs 2004), or it could be due to the RHD vs. LHD difference.
Also, it is quite important to note that Chris's car is a 2003. All of us in NAR or earlier have 2004 cars. A little bird told me that there was a modification made to this tube assembly fairly early on in the game - so, based on that, I don't think that we MY 2004 and later owners need to be too worried about this.
If we get another report of a tube failure, especially if it is on a MY 2004 or newer vehicle, then we should probably sit up and take notice. But for the moment, I'm inclined to believe that the problem was caused by exfoliation corrosion, and the exfoliation corrosion was caused by (possibly) a less than perfect job being done when the bend was introduced into that tube. In other words, the design is just fine, but it was the wrong material, or the material was just fine, but the method of bending it was not appropriate (perhaps bent on a mandrel rather than magnaformed, etc.).
Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael,
That's good news! Much appreciated.
Regards,
Ron


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## tgarbrecht (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

this happened to me about a year ago in my 04. PS fluid went dry, was supposedly fixed, then was finally fixed after a second visit.
I posted this before, but it went unnoticed.


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (tgarbrecht)*

Hello Tyson,
Do you have any details regarding the source of the failure? Also, do you have a V8 or a W12? I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Ron


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## tgarbrecht (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Check your engines (remrem)*

Hi Ron,
I have an 04 V8. I started noticing noises when turning the wheel more than say 90 degrees.
Checked the fluid and was bone dry. Took to the dealer and they replaced the pump (which I suspect was NOT the problem) as it happened again a few weeks later. Brought it back and they kept the car for a few days to monitor the problem by putting a UV substance in the fluid. They told me they "tightened a few things" in the power steering system, but the problem hasn't come up again


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (tgarbrecht)*

Thanks for your reply Tyson. I see from your original post (May 2008) that your problem occurred about a year ago, and I assume that it has not recurred?
If so, then Michael can we conclude that Tyson's problem with his '04 V8 was not due to the same sort of corrosion issue that Chris has reported here, or do we need more information to be sure?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (remrem)*

*Archival Note: *Related discussion - Power Steering Problem


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Chris:
VW has recently (June 2009) released a campaign in the ROW market that discusses failure of a power steering line as a result of abrasion. I have attached the relavant section of the document below.
You might want to inquire with your service department about "Service Action 97Q1", specifically criteria 2, and see if this is applicable to your vehicle. The document is also indexed as TS 2019441/2. I don't know if this speaks to the same problem that you had, however, it might.
Regards,
Michael


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## Chris Milnes (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael
Very interesting post. I have had cause to inspect the underside of the car recently, investigating a coolant leak from the "alternator".
Incidentally, with the aid of an endoscope, I have traced the leak to the connection between hose and alternator, probably the washer / seal, so no alternators have failed to date....
Back to the point, I did notice that the pipe beneath the main radiator on my w12 is also corroded albeit not leaking yet...
I suspect that the salt used in the UK is at least a contributing factor but it is fascinating to hear that impact on the undercover is also a contributory issue.
If I go any slower over speed humps I will cease to move...
It looks like I am going to need to replace the torque converter soon (waiting for the warranty confirmation) so I will be dealing with coolant leaks and corroded pipes at the same time.
Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chris Milnes* »_It looks like I am going to need to replace the torque converter soon (waiting for the warranty confirmation) so I will be dealing with coolant leaks and corroded pipes at the same time.

In a way, that is a good thing. It is much easier to do work on the engine when it is out of the car, and it has to come out of the car to replace the torque converter. There are some photos on the Transmission Discussions (5 speed, used on W12 Phaetons) thread showing the extent of the disassembly needed to get at the engine.
If you have any concerns about wheel bearings, droplinks, upper control arms, etc., get it all done at the same time - the labour saving will be huge. Besides, the car needs to get a wheel alignment following engine removal (because the whole front end comes off), so, that cost is covered as part of the transmission fix.
Please send me an email (click on my user name to the left to reveal my email address), I have some stuff to send you. Let me know what the maximum storage size of your email account is, and how big an attachment it can handle in one email.
Michael


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## KCPhaetonTech (Aug 17, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Speaking of corroded pipes, I addressed mine during the removal of my engine/transmission also. The fact that the first 3 years of my vehicle were spent on the east coast in New Jersey didn't help much and the pictures will show that. While removed I replaced all the metal coolant pipes, metal power steering line, and the transmission cooler which the lines had seized to from corrosion. These all at my expense obviously, but also brings a piece of mind. These all could be replaced without removing the engine/transmission, but took virtually no time at all being that most of the fluids were already drained and access was quite easy.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (KCPhaetonTech)*

Wow - it is scary to see the effect of road salt on exposed components.








Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

After reading the first part of this discussion back in May, when I next took my car in for service I asked my Phaeton tech to do a careful inspection for any signs of corrosion problems. I specifically mentioned the power steering lines, but asked him to look at everything he could. He said he saw nothing of any significance.
However, when I look at the above photos and diagrams, I wonder how much is hidden from view without disassembly. Would it be a mistake to deduce that if what he could see was lacking corrosion, then it should follow that what he could not see was likely to be in the same condition?
I am also wondering why the recent campaign mentioned above would apply to ROW W12's, but not to North Amercian W12's?


_Modified by remrem at 7:07 AM 11-23-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (remrem)*

Hi Remrem:
My guess is that because you are located in an area that does not use salt during the winter (Fort Lauderdale, FL), you should not have any concerns about underbody component corrosion.
I inspected my W12 very carefully about 2 years ago. At the same time, I compared it to a similar age Phaeton that had been used in the province of Quebec, Canada. My car showed no evidence of corrosion, despite having been used in Ontario (a province that uses relatively little salt during the winter). The Quebec car showed substantial corrosion.
In other words - I think it is very location-dependent. It also depends on whether the car is stored indoors during the winter (and thus is able to dry out between driving cycles), or whether it is stored outdoors (and thus stays wet for pretty much the whole winter). Obviously the latter would be much worse for corrosion.
Michael


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## Chris Milnes (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Well after a delay to get parts manufactured (!!) work to replace my torque converter have started.
I attach (hopefully) pictures of the car partially disassembled, engine should be removed tomorrow.
Of note is that salt corrosion doesn't seem to be as bad as I feared. A coolant pipe under the radiator is in need of replacement (£55) but otherwise no shocks so far.
Update soon...
Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Check your engines (Chris Milnes)*

Chris:
While your VW dealer is doing this work, ask them to have a look at Technical Solution 2019441/2 (Service action 97Q1), dated 25 June 2009. The file is attached below.
There is a requirement to check a W12 servotronic relay in that action.
*Everyone else:* Note that this Service Action does not apply within North America!
Michael


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## Chris Milnes (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Check your engines (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael.
Will check with my VW dealer. Never realised that they put campaign completed stickers in the spare wheel well - I will be having a look in there when I get the car back - spare wheel has never been used since new..
Chris


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## hylko (Nov 17, 2009)

is it possible to have photo's rehosted ? 

Thanks Hylko


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos and documents have been re-hosted. 

Michael


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## hylko (Nov 17, 2009)

*Power steering rack part no needed*

Thanks for re hosting the pictures.

My car is now a week in the garage to have power steering pipes replaced as these are corroded.

Now I have been told the steering rack needs replacing too as the connection point for the pipes are corroded too and this means the entire rack needs replacing.

VW has not got this part in stock and needs to be produced in Germany, they cannot tell me how long this might take. 

I have been looking on ebay.de and found this advert : 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Lenkgetriebe...E_Autoteile&hash=item3f07a59241#ht_2840wt_897

Now i am wondering if this one can be used for my 2005 V6 TDI model? Any ideas or is there for my car an other part no needed? As cannot find this in the ETKA digram on power steering.

Thanks for helping out

hylko


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## AudianerA6 (Sep 19, 2007)

It seems that my Phaeton has lost some stearing oil. What typ of oil can I use to fill it up again? In about 80000km, it has lost about half of the oil.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

hylko:

Wouldn't the rack be different between LHD and RHD? Also, I seem to remember that some UK cars (not just VW) have a different steering fit from EU versions to comply with strange and arcane UK laws. Anyone?


AudianerA6:

The VW part no. for 1 litre of Power Steering fluid is G-004-000-M2. I expect Google will come up with some equivalents.


Chris


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

*Sudden, rapid Power Steering fluid leak*

Hi

This morning, while the car was idling for about 10 minutes, all my power steering fluid managed to leak (can't say precisely from where) out from the bottom of the car, in a fast drip. It was a sudden and first-time occurrence. At this point, moving the steering wheel is now practically impossible and makes an audible squeaking sound. 

If I were to refill the fluid in order to check for the source of the leak, does anyone have any suggestions? Does this resonate as a specific type of failure so I may know where to check? I drive a 2005 V8 with about 81000 miles, and so far the car has been working perfectly considering it's moderate age. Thanks for any input.

Mike V


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

Also, as this is my first post in the forum, I should also say thanks to all the participants here, because their useful knowledge made me feel a lot more comfortable about buying a Phaeton.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

If It was leaking that much, you probably wouldn't need to add fluid to see where the leak was coming from. I would not drive the car or even start it as you do not want to damage any components by running the system dry. The Phaeton is pretty well covered up. You will have to remove underbody panels to get a good look and even then, it's pretty well packed. Locate the power steering pump and trace the lines from it to the coolers and the rack. You should be able to find the leak.

Damon


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Hi Mike,

There is a posting in the TOC about corrosion of a power steering line, I linked it here.

Keep us posted on what the outcome is, best of luck!

JT


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Mike:

John hit the nail on the head with his reference to the original thread (post directly above).

In order to keep all the discussion of this topic together, I'm now going to append your new post (started yesterday) onto the end of the above-referenced existing post.

Best regards,

Michael


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for the responses. In short our efforts to locate the problem fell short because the car was inconveniently parked on the side of the street and getting access was just too challenging. There is a loose hose however, and the pump seems to be loud and sucking air instead of fluid. Also the suspension would not raise up or down while the ignition was off and running on the battery (because I didn't want to start the car and cause damage.) I assume maybe this is normal, plus the battery is very old.

Anyway the car is already off to the mechanic, I will let you know what they find.


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## jpett (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi All,
I too had power steering woes last month in my 04 Phaeton, whilst driving I noticed a hum that wasn't there previously. I figured is was the power steering drawing air or the bearing on the power steering pump was on the way out, so I stopped and checked for leaks nothing, unfortunately I couldn't check the fluid level on the side of the road as its hidden under a cover, hoping it was just air I returned home. At home I checked the fluid and it was okay little low but not empty.

So fears of replacing my power steering pump began to grow, I had a quick look at power steering pump removal on a V10 it’s not too bad, once you have the engine out!:banghead: I decided to do a flush first with new fluid, first I added new fluid and turned the steering lock to lock to try and remove any air. To my shock the level began to drop in the reservoir and I was putting more and more fluid in. I rechecked for leaks and low and behold I found it. Another corroded pipe but this was in a different location than Chris's. 

The pipe is in vulnerable location if you drive on salted roads it can be visibly checked without removing the wheel. Although its necessary to jack the car up . The pipe protrudes the same side for LHD and RHD, LHD would have been easier job but as mine is RHD the high pressure pipe continues to the far side of the car which means stripping both sides to gain access to the necessary bolts. Sorry I had planned on taking step by step photos of the procedure. The pipe was so badly corroded that it sheared before the connection joint would release. The leak was at the point of the shear.

Looking under the LHD Drivers side or RHD Passengers side you will see. Note the air strut is already removed in the illustration









A: is where my pipe fractured
B: Is the same pipe that failed on Chris's car this travels up around the wheel arch under the 
inner wheel lining 
C: Chris's fracture



















Take note this female connector suppose to be free to spin on the pipe not welded with rust. 










Hope this failure is just a one off for my EX-UK Phaeton but I'd recommend getting it checked.

Super forum guys we would be lost without it 

Regard James


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi James:

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for making such a useful and well-illustrated post.

I'm now curious to know if this power steering corrosion problem is something unique to RHD cars - we have not had a lot of reports of PS problems from the North American crowd, however, quite a few reports from the UK crowd.

Michael


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

Well it seems my ongoing power steering issue wouldn't do anything to challenge Michael's statement about the North American cars... It was found that the pump on my car is done for (and needs replaced :thumbdown, however there is apparently no corrosion or damage elsewhere on the system.

I guess I should just feel lucky I wasn't driving down a twisting highway when the pump failed (seemingly in an instant.)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

To the best of my knowledge, your problem (post above) is the first power steering problem that has been reported in North America - hence my comment 'not a lot'.

Michael


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

Right, and I agree. I suppose that what I meant is that my problem seems to be unique to this thread: in my case the pump itself failed, whereas in these other cases different pipes had failed instead. I am speculating the region of the car explains the difference in the fault, but I hope to get some more details on this soon, thanks for the input everyone.

Mike V


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## jpett (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks Michael,
I must share this quote from a different forum ‘ Out of curiousity I "tasted" the water on the road, it is very salty, in other words driving on a wet winter road that has been gritted is just like driving the car on the beach through the salt water. No wonder the corrosion on UK cars is so bad’ 
This issue maybe isolated to the UK but I figure exposed metal parts maybe subject to the same torture if salt is a factor in any country. Example those who see corrosion of the metal coolant pipe below the radiator, my guess is that they are subject to this corrosion too. Whatever salt they use in the UK I’m sure it would even bring the Terminator to a standstill.
Regards James


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

PanEuropean said:


> Attached below are some additional pictures from Chris that show where the tube failed.
> Michael
> *Complete tube assembly*
> 
> ...


 Hi Michael, 

Could you please rehost these photos ? 

Thanks, 

P. 

_Hi Pierre: Those photos have been re-hosted, they are on page 1 of this thread in the original location. Michael_


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

*Power Steering problem?... SOS*

was driving along this morning and suddenly a very noisy whine started coming from the engine bay, left side, louder and louder. pull off the motorway as soon as i could and noticed oil dripping from a cable in the passenger wheel arch.. 
brake fluid level fine , oil level fine. got home now there s a nice pool of oil on the ground just inside the wheel arch

am getting married this Thursday and will need the car to ferry guests from the airport some any input would be greatly appreciated


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

I had a very similar problem last November with my 2005 V8. I heard a whine upon starting the car one morning, which (I was told) most likely was power steering fluid dripping on an engine belt. Then the steering locked up and only moved sluggishly with a squealing sound. Also had a puddle of fluid from left side of vehicle. Took it (towed it) to the dealer, diagnosis was a failed power steering pump. Not overly expensive and hasn't had any power steering problems since.
Good luck.

Mike V


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks mike


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## SyncroS8 (Jul 9, 2012)

Could also be the main pressure feed pipe to the rack.

My W12 Phaeton currently has this problem but as it's RHD, getting to it means removing the engine and gearbox!

MG


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

where do you check and power steering fluid levels and how do you top it up?


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## Panther427 (May 20, 2012)

You have to remove the beauty panels in the engine to locate the blue cap for power steering. There will be a dipstick attached to the cap. Think there is a hot and cold level.

Cori.


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

thanks cori


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## Panther427 (May 20, 2012)

Did you find the power steering cap. Was it low on fluid?


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## jpett (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi Ed,
I had the same issue with my V10 see http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4391639-Power-Steering-Line-Failure-(corrosion)-TOC-done
Don't drive it with the noise or you will need a new power steering pump & this is a engine out job. Also use the correct fluid!
Congratulations hope went well on Thursday.

Feel free to call.
Rdgs James


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Pierre: 

I have re-hosted the photos that were contained in the quote above, but I have re-hosted them in the original discussion thread, which is here: Power Steering Line Failure (corrosion). 

It is a bit too complex to re-host them within the quote above. 

Michael


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

Picked up the car from VW on return from honeymoon.. found 2 pipes running from front left wheel arch to steering rack were corroded , especially at the joins . dropped the subframe slightly for access. 
replaced pipes , bled system and refilled. 

part numbers :v3d2422893r - 106687 
:vg004000m2 - 106687


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note: 
* 
I merged Ed's more recent inquiry about the power steering problem (his posts above, dated 2012) onto the end of the older discussion of power steering hose failures, this to keep all the information together in one post that is listed in the forum FAQ. 

Michael


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

the advice from the VW dealership is get the two pipes done as your at it as its a labour intensive job


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

*Temporary fix for leaking PS pipe*

Hello all
A few weeks ago the PS system on my 2008 Phaeton: symptom was a groaning from the steering which was easy enough to diagnose: dripping green fluid from under the passenger(UK) wheel arch area. I got home before damage was done to the pump, but the car was impossible to drive. My reliable VW service is 120 miles, so some thought was required.
I removed the wheel arch and located the damage: a pinhole sized corrosion/ crack at a bracket mounting point on a long tube that runs from the rack, under the wing to the front of the car, and ultimately ends up close to the oil dipstick (in the V6 tdi). Pipe is complex multi-section and about 1.5m in length.

With help from the forum ( including James, above:thumbup, and my VW service, the correct part was identified and ordered, but getting part, car and mechanic in the same place was the challenge. 
The solution arrived at was to cut out the leaking section ( about 15cm) and following some careful measurement to establish the pipe has an OD of 10mm, I got the local hydraulic repair desk to make a flexible section capable of holding the 100bar pressure. (Cost 20Eu, $25). This was a total success, and provided a totally leak free repair to get me to the garage. It would probably have lasted the life of the car, but I was not comfortable with the risk and got the new part fitted. Apparently fitting the pipe was a nightmare, but VW stuck with the quoted price of £450: about £250 for the part and the balance labour. Front bumper was removed in the process 

The original leak









Close up of the leak at the bracket









Damaged Sections cut out










Temporary pipe in position









No complaints overall, car has 85,000 miles and drives like new, and this is the first mechanical issue of any type encountered.

Trust this might be use to someone else if they have the same problem. With the benefit of hindsight, I could have been on the road in 2 hours, if I had thought of the repair approach on day 1.

Regards
Hugh
Dublin


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

KCPhaetonTech said:


> Speaking of corroded pipes, I addressed mine during the removal of my engine/transmission also. The fact that the first 3 years of my vehicle were spent on the east coast in New Jersey didn't help much and the pictures will show that. While removed I replaced all the metal coolant pipes, metal power steering line, and the transmission cooler which the lines had seized to from corrosion. These all at my expense obviously, but also brings a piece of mind. These all could be replaced without removing the engine/transmission, but took virtually no time at all being that most of the fluids were already drained and access was quite easy.


 
Hi Matt,

You may have noticed from a previous post of mine today, that my engine/transmission assembly is coming out for a starter motor replacement. I remembered this thread, and your posts in particular, and was wondering about how much expense did you incur for the various parts (metal coolant pipes, metal power steering line, and the transmission cooler) that you replaced at the time? Hopefully I won't be faced with all of these, but I want to be prepared and proactive. Thanks very much in advance for your (and anyone else who'd like to) reply. Happy New Year!

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Ron:

I don't know what the cost of the components is, but, for what it's worth, I asked the tech at my VW dealership to very carefully inspect these lines in my car when it was in for an oil change (and some other stuff) in October/November/December. The tech reported that no corrosion was found.

In light of the fact that not much salt gets used on the roads in Florida, my guess is that it is very unlikely that any corrosion will be found on your car either.

If you print out this thread and give it to the parts department specialist at your VW dealer, they will be able to give you a pretty good idea of what the parts cost would be. I kind of doubt that any of the parts will be expensive, they are just tubes and lines.

Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

Thank Michael,

Today, with my engine and transmission removed for the starter replacement, my tech and I examined all other visible systems and parts, and everything looks in great condition, with the exception of the power steering pressure line, which shows corrosion at the same or similar locations as shown in the photographs and diagrams in this thread. I may be over-reacting here, because the corrosion really isn't as pronounced as shown above, but I want to take preventive action and replace it now while it's easy to do. I expect the part will be around $300, and will probably only be about 1 hour of labor, so it seems to me a "no brainer". Thanks again. I'll let you know if there are any further developments.

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## V10Mike (Jan 24, 2007)

I can now add myself to the list of UK Phaeton owners who have suffered power steering pipe failure. I too got the cavitation whine from the pump, fortunately as I was reversing into my drive, and the car then slowly dumped all its fluid on the floor. I tried topping it up, but it came out the bottom as fast as I put it in the top! So time for this, for the first occasion in my Phaeton ownership:










The actual failure was at the banjo on the end of the long pipe with the flexible section, the end nearest the camers below (the banjo has actually broken away):










But there were several other areas of severe corrosion, here:










here:










and here:










The othere pipe was also on its last legs, particularly at the connection to the rack:



















I tried to get a contribution from VW, but nothing doing, the best I could get was a 10% discount from the dealer -even after this it was £843 to replace both pipes (five hours labour).

If I known this was likely to happen I would have taken out the wheelarch liner and liberally applied underbody wax to the pipes -the factory corrosion protection is obviously inadequate for salted roads. If yours hasn't gone yet I would strongly advise you to take a look.


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Mike
the same one that failed for me, mine however was not so corroded, but a combination of corrosion & stress at the mounting point under the arch. I think I got it done for £500, but the dealer had committed to the price in advance and in fairness stuck with it, but said it was much more complex than expected...
Hugh


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## 3655ph (Nov 22, 2012)

*Pw*

Hi all not having a very good week just lost all my power steering fluid on my 2005 TDI. Any idea if this is a DIY job or how much a new steering line would cost?
I haven't checked the pipe yet however the nearside front wheel arch is wet with fluid.
Any assistance appreciated
Phil


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## mavance (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi Phil,

When my power steering line failed, the leak was visible above the driver's side wheel arch (on a North American vehicle). If this sounds similar to yours, then the corrosion might be at the connection between the same two lines as my 2005 V8 vehicle.

There was a short (~$90) and long (~$300) line I had replaced... depending on your experience maybe you could DIY. But you probably know how cramped the insides of a Phaeton are, and you'd need a lift I imagine. It took 4 hours of labor at my VW/ Audi specialist (independent, not a dealership), and most people making a first time attempt would likely need much longer than that.

Mike V


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Phil,

This thread is the TOC one containing pretty much everything known about the power steering lines and the known corrosion.

Unless you find you have a joint broken as shown in post #45 and #65, it is likely that road salt has affected the pipes shown in posts #9 and #69.

Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note:
*
See this newer discussion (dating from November 2013) for additional reports of corrosion of the power steering line(s): A new Worry - engine speed related grinding noise.

The problem seems to be most prevalent in the British Isles.

Michael


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## Hundikoer (Feb 2, 2012)

Dear All,

I had the power steering pipe replaced last week (50,000km, <3 years old car). Now it feels that there is a new(?) tiny but annoying and tiring vibration in steering wheel when motor is running. It doesn’t increase by speed though. Visited dealer this morning and they said it cannot be caused by new pipe nor the work they have done. And apparently some(!) vibration is normal. 
I somewhat remember it used to be completely stable – that’s one of many things I love in this car.

Any ideas guys?

Regards,
Lauri


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Lauri,

I test drove a 3.0 TDi once which had that vibration in the steering wheel at idle (and driving), so it's not an isolated case. Of course, this comment is not much help to you, because I do not know what the cause was.

Chris


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## Hundikoer (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks Chris

So, it should NOT be vibrating at all and I am not imagining something:screwy:?
I'd hate even the thought to live with that...


Lauri


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Lauri, Chris,
I sometimes feel a vibration on the steering wheel but mainly when the Phaeton has not been running for a while, lets say a couple of days or so, an the outside temperature is low as well.
I have always wondered if it had to do with the combustion process within a cold diesel engine, or whether perhaps it had to do with cold transmission fluid and the associated drag within the gearbox. However, once my Phaeton warms up it disappears so I am not worried about it.
In any case Lauri, I would check the steering fluid level and also turn the steering wheel from full lock to full lock, and keep it in that position for a few seconds, so that in case that there is some air within the system it can be purged.

Gabriel


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I've also had a similar-sounding vibration ever since the transmission was changed. On mine it's most noticeable at idle when cold, it improves as the engine warms up. It's cyclical and you feel it through the wheel and through the seat. I sent it back and they supposedly checked the engine and transmission mounts to no effect. It's been steadily improving, as has the general smoothness of the (remanufactured) transmission, so I strongly suspect that mine is transmission-related.


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## Hundikoer (Feb 2, 2012)

Many thanks Gabriel

Will check both ideas later. The car was standing still for few days indeed but now has some decent mileage since that.
Checking the fluid level is tricky I remember - tried to add some when initial issue with the pipe started and was really able to add just a little before it was all over...

Cheers,


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## Hundikoer (Feb 2, 2012)

invisiblewave,
Hope you have a warranty to cover the job if it becomes necessary.

Lauri


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't. It's been that way for around 60k miles now, with no change (mine's a V8). A more worrying issue is that there's been a slight fluid leak of some kind for around the last 20k miles. There's always a single drip underneath at the rear of the engine. I've reported it to the dealer twice (while it was under warranty), but as usual they couldn't find a problem.....


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## Hundikoer (Feb 2, 2012)

Turned the steering wheel from full lock to full lock and although the vibration is not completely gone, it does feel much better now. Fluid level was just above MIN.

I am annoyed it was not done (known?) by the dealer. But they have "surprised" me too many times so I am used to it...

Many thanks!

Lauri


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Lauri,
Congratulations, I am glad to hear that the problem is almost sorted. :thumbup:

Gabriel


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

My W12 has developed a PAS leak exactly as in post #45 with that fitting frozen as well. Tomorrow I plan to contact a friend of mine that owns an auto parts store about splicing in a replacement section such as in post #65. I'm a bit apprehensive concerning the quality of the remaining line protruding from the steering unit for this splice. If this option fails then I assume I'll need to replace the line that originates from the power steering unit(as in post#45) or will I need replacement of the entire steering unit to have new lines?

Any insight will be most appreciated,
Cantrell


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## helix100 (Jan 6, 2012)

I have recently been through this corroded pipe issue from the image forwarded to me to check I was ordering the correct pipe I dont think you can order the pipes that directly connect to the steering rack but I could be wrong (image below)










I was concerned that I would damage the pipe joining to the rack whilst trying to remove the pipe highlighted as the connection was completely seized. The front bumper/ radiator etc had to be taken off to replace this. I found a coolant pipe that runs across the radiator from left to right at low level was also corroded so replaced that at the same time.

James


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm presently waiting for the nessasary parts to fabricate a repair as in post #65. I'm having to do this as the connection of the 2 pipes had rusted thru and frozen up. Repairing with OEM parts would require 2 separate pipes that I'm not sure are both available. I see no reason that once installed it'll be more trouble free than the OEM parts that rusted away. 

Cantrell


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## VloJoh (Jan 2, 2012)

*Another victim of corrosion*

My check brake-pads warning came on suddenly last week.
Before I was able to get it checked I had a catastrophic failure of the power-steering.
Checked out that both events were actually connected to eachother!
The picture shows it all ic:










Hydraulic fluid caused a short in the connection of the left brake-pad sensor...
Didn't see that coming

Luckily, my trusted friend Adolfo could help me out and get if fixed the next day!









Below is the bulging, corroded and leaking old connection









Another corroded connection (not yet leaking but preventatively replaced)

The "new-and-improved" power-steeering high-pressure line










Enjoying the silence again...


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

My 2011 V6 TDi also suffered from a passenger side (RHD) pipe failure due to corrosion recently. It was replaced under warranty. 

I still notice quite a whining noise at idle (it's not the wife), more so if in Drive, less so in Neutral. It is inaudible when driving along but quite noticeable when I come to a stop; the pitch changes slightly when I move the steering wheel. 

Does anyone else have this niggle ? I guess it's most likely to be the power steering pump but I suppose it could be a rumbling bearing on another unit on the same drive belt - any ideas ?


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## VloJoh (Jan 2, 2012)

*Whining too*



robbie-rocket-pants said:


> My 2011 V6 TDi also suffered from a passenger side (RHD) pipe failure due to corrosion recently. It was replaced under warranty.
> 
> I still notice quite a whining noise at idle (it's not the wife), more so if in Drive, less so in Neutral. It is inaudible when driving along but quite noticeable when I come to a stop; the pitch changes slightly when I move the steering wheel.
> 
> Does anyone else have this niggle ? I guess it's most likely to be the power steering pump but I suppose it could be a rumbling bearing on another unit on the same drive belt - any ideas ?


Robbie,

I too have a horrible whine now from the PS pump. Seems to be working OK though, fluid levels are adequate with new PS fluid...
Mechanic said not to worry, but it is really annoying. 
I am not sure which fluid was used, does anyone think the VW original will be better??

John


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the info John. 
Did your car lose its PAS fluid due to a corroded pipe, like mine did ? I'm wondering if there was some wear on the pump if it ran dry. Like yours, mine still works fine.


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## VloJoh (Jan 2, 2012)

It ran dry, and I had to drive a small distance (1 km or less) with the pump streaming like a girl...
Will try different fluid to see if the noise changes with that.

John


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## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

damn it.... another one to add to the list.... !

Just got about 500yds from home thankfully, then the noise was pretty quick...

yup... loads / all of the fluid has puked up via the nearside wheel arch...

Too busy to look at this at the moment, but I'll have to park her up on axle stands & do the pipe replacement myself..

The pump may have run dry for a few moments ( sounded very grumbly from outside ! )

Time to get a few bits from the scrappie !

Thanks for the pics, will have to see what bits have failed / where....

if the pipe is simply broken along a 10mm OD section, i'll get some repair stuff from pirtek... but when I last had a rummage under the car a year ago, I took time to check the pipes & they were clean, no corrosion...

I wonder if it has just fractured ?

Oh well, time will tell :biggrinsanta:


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## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

All fixed! Poxy thing lol...the pipes are all solid,but they all have a weakness where the brackets are welded...my pipe burst at the upper bracket above the wheel.....

Bit off 8mm Swagelok and some female female fittings and repaired....

The pump I deffo slightly. Noisier now....


Happy it's on the road,but what a silly place to route the pipes...

I see a new phaeton on the way !!

Already on the lookout.

Happy 2018 all !


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Well done Taz.
Do you have a link to the repair pipe and connectors so I'm prepared for the next time ?


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## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Soz Rob, no, I got some 8 mm Swagelok fittings from work and used some 3/8 tube. Easy enough, but I've got my sights on a new phaeton..2010 plus version...

Was a lot of aggro to repair this weekend.....even did it without removing the ns wheel.

The failure points are always where the brackets are tagged on during welding...


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

One more to the list.








When I should verify the leak I had my son helping me wiggeling the steering wheel left and right. The car was on ramps so it was not possible to turn it very much and certainly not to the limit position to build maximum pressure. The leak was verified without maximum pressure and the other thing I noted made me quite surprised that this tube survives as long as it does. When the steering wheel was turned left/right the tube vibrated quite violently as marked in the image. All the stress will land in the bend next to the clamp. That will:
1: Stress the material and over time weaken it 
and to help the deterioration
2: break the surface paint to let the corrosion join the party.
I will try to find those swagelok things to fix it and put a flexible part in place that can take the vibrations. Not very interrested in buying the original tube with built in self destruction. For €460.
Thanks for the tip, Taz!

Lennart


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

That seems a good plan. The pipe on my V10 fractured two years ago and was successfully fixed in the conventional way by the main dealer, so I suppose it will go again one day, as you say.

Then last year I was astonished to be told that the steering rack was leaking. But it wasn't leaking at a union or a seal or a gasket, or even through a crack, it was pushing fluid through the actual metal casting itself which had become porous.

I suppose that's technically a manufacturing defect, since you shouldn't be able to wear out the body of a non-cracked casting, but after having two bites at the 12-year body warranty for door replacements on an 11-year-old car I didn't push my luck with VW's goodwill on this one!

I think a redesigned repair on your pipe seems very sensible. I didn't fancy trying to cast a new steering rack body myself though...

Chris



If anyone is interested, the steering rack squeezes out and in again through this gap in the wheel-arch:
(You can also see the fabled orange Plenum Chamber drain teats in there. No wonder so few people clean them.)


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

I have not read every word in this thread but would like to get some attention to corrosion points that are quite difficult to spot under inspection. The pipe is covered with a protection tube at some positions and under this tube things happen unnoticed until the servo fluid just flushes and you wish you had put more time in the gym. Early warning in this case could be to squeeze those protection tube covered parts with your fingers and you will hear or feel the scrunch of corroded parts if you are in trouble. The new pipe looks like stainless instead of the old painted one, hopefully it is as it cost €400.
The old one looks like this when the protection tube is cut open.









Lennart


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## VloJoh (Jan 2, 2012)

*Servo-steering pump replacement (pressure issues)*

The PAS pump was now making too much noise, and I had to replace it. I bought a replacement from Ebay and got it in quite nicely.
The problem however was that the new pump had a pressure regulator that was not designed for the [email protected] W12. This resulted in not enough steering-assist pressure at idle making parking very inconvenient.

Is the original parts-number 3D0 422 154 and is the letter after that (usually L) of any significance? 
I would preferably get a replacement for the entire setup (pump and regulator)? The whine has to go, if there is a chance that it is coming from the pressure regulator?
Is there another pump that fits from the VAG line-up?

Thanks!

John


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi John,

The original suffix letters for MY2008 are these:

3D0 422 154C = 6.0L V12
3D0 422 154D = 3.2L VR6
3D0 422 154E = 4.2L V8
3D0 422 154K = 3.0 TDi


Web site _parts.vw.com_ states that the part suffix C is now replaced by part suffix G.

Parts supplier Autodoc list suffix F and K as being interchangeable and suffix K and L being interchangeable. It appears that suffix K was replaced by spare part suffix Q after 2011.

It gets very complicated when you add in parts number updates due to supplier contract changes, dealer spares margin changes and physical part modifications introduced to fix problems. 

Chris


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## VloJoh (Jan 2, 2012)

Paximus said:


> Hi John,
> 
> The original suffix letters for MY2008 are these:
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for this Chris! I was indeed confused...
Will see which ones I can find.

John


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

Paximus said:


> Hi John,
> 
> The original suffix letters for MY2008 are these:
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,

I am a bit suspicious regarding autodoc as they tend to be very generous with compability so to say. A friend got 323 mm brake discs to his V10 where the original discs are 365 mm...
Below is what ETKA lists. Autodoc may be correct with most of the compability but you may get an earlier part that has weak points that has been improved as the power steering line. Note that the two last part numbers are for 2011-2016 3.0 TDI. Don’t know what differs but ETKA states that there is a difference.

W12:
3D0 422 154 C: Dropped on 01/11/2017, replaced by 3D0 422 154 G.

VR6:
3D0 422 154 D: Dropped on 01/06/2017, replaced by 3D0 422 154 J.

V8:
3D0 422 154 E: Dropped on 01/03/2012, replaced by 3D0 422 154 H.

V6 TDI:
3D0 422 154 F: Dropped on 01/04/2009, replaced by 3D0 422 154 K.
3D0 422 154 L: For 2011-2016 V6 TDI. Dropped on 01/10/2012, replaced by 3D0 422 154 Q.

Lennart



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## VloJoh (Jan 2, 2012)

Hi Lennart,

Thanks also for the help. Jorden has already found some options for replacement.
Will keep you guys posted.

John


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