# Need some help starting a '77 Bus



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Engine code GD, bought it a few weeks back, havent been able to get it started, checked the oil, looks ok.... 

jumped the starter, starter kicks like a wild horse! 
tried several different batteries... 

this is my first aircooled Vw, id like to get this bus going before summer, any of you folks can shed some expertise on this situation? 

heres some media


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## VegasVik (Apr 1, 2007)

Engine seized? Can you turn it over by hand?


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

VegasVik said:


> Engine seized? Can you turn it over by hand?


 
I do think this is the case, the po said it sat for a while.... tomorrow I will use a breaker bar, lube up the pistols and try and turn it... ill report back




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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I do think this is the case, the po said it sat for a while.... tomorrow I will use a breaker bar, lube up the pistols and try and turn it... ill report back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Dayo Minotaur  , 
When you "jumped the starter, starter kicks like a wild horse!" ,was that installed in the bus or a bench test? 
Bench test most likely means frozen engine . 
Installed in the bus & engine turned = just a dead short in your wiring between the ignition switch & starter or a whack ignition switch ,hope it's just that rather than the engine . 

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Dayo Minotaur  ,
> When you "jumped the starter, starter kicks like a wild horse!" ,was that installed in the bus or a bench test?
> Bench test most likely means frozen engine .
> Installed in the bus & engine turned = just a dead short in your wiring between the ignition switch & starter or a whack ignition switch ,hope it's just that rather than the engine .
> ...


 




Hey, yea the starter was pulled out and tested.....
The motor probably is frozen.... 
I will attempt to turn the motor tomorrow....





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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Hey, yea the starter was pulled out and tested.....
> The motor probably is frozen....
> I will attempt to turn the motor tomorrow....
> 
> ...


 Acch! ,OK Minotaur  , _please_ take a look @ this http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=7754.0  before attempting to dry rotate the engine . 
Gooooooo Slooooow ,don't try to force it . 

"jumped the starter, starter kicks like a wild horse!" 
Chased you all the way across the garage:laugh: . 

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Acch! ,OK Minotaur  , _please_ take a look @ this http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=7754.0  before attempting to dry rotate the engine .
> Gooooooo Slooooow ,don't try to force it .
> 
> "jumped the starter, starter kicks like a wild horse!"
> ...


 


Well, when I attempt to crank it by hand later today, I will be lubing the pistons with wd40, I actually lubed them up a few days ago to let it sit.....

But I have a question, do I pull the starter out and turn it, or can the starter stay in when I crank by hand? 



Thanks again!

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## 3VWRagTops (Aug 24, 2011)

*starter*

You don't need to pull the starter to crank by hand unless it is stuck against the flywheel. But you should remove all four spark plugs to reduce compression. Of course disconnect the battery first. Once you free it up by hand you should be able to get it to crank with a good battery and starter. Oh yeah, be sure you have good clean ground, that is always a 'no go'! Good luck.


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## danfromsyr (Mar 28, 2002)

be careful when turning it by hand/breaker bar 
the fan is held to the hub with a fairly small set of bolts. 
for alot of force it's usually best to try to turn by the Alt pulley which will pull the belt tight and around.. 

maybe try pulling it on a roape and releasing the clutch?


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Well, when I attempt to crank it by hand later today, I will be lubing the pistons with wd40, I actually lubed them up a few days ago to let it sit.....
> 
> But I have a question, do I pull the starter out and turn it, or can the starter stay in when I crank by hand?
> 
> ...


 Dayo Minotaur  , 
WD-40 tends not to have as an aggressive grunge loosening ability like a solvent, which ATF acts like on a _short term_ basis . 
Something else I was thinkin' about was the valve train, have you pulled off the valve covers & tried to loosen the adjusters? to see if you have a dry stuck lifter or bent valve contacting a piston top? 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...e=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=E52AUbefO6aaiALFj4HgAg 



3VWRagTops said:


> You don't need to pull the starter to crank by hand *unless it is stuck against the flywheel*. But you should remove all four spark plugs to reduce compression. Of course disconnect the battery first. Once you free it up by hand you should be able to get it to crank with a good battery and starter. Oh yeah, be sure you have good clean ground, that is always a 'no go'! Good luck.


:thumbup: 
_Definitely_ has a good ground Tops  given the draw @ the dash lights . 
*Given* that this should be a self supporting starter, it may appear to bench test just fine but not work under stress http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=5359.0 . 



danfromsyr said:


> be careful when turning it by hand/breaker bar
> the fan is held to the hub with a fairly small set of bolts.
> for alot of force it's usually best to try to turn by the Alt pulley which will pull the belt tight and around..
> 
> *maybe try pulling it on a rope and releasing the clutch?*


 *A bump start* attempt would _definitely_ cause more unintended internal damage if something else we can't see here is locked up danfrom  , I'd start picking it apart piece by piece from the heads down as is before forcing it. 


:beer::beer::beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Dayo Minotaur  ,
> WD-40 tends not to have as an aggressive grunge loosening ability like a solvent, which ATF acts like on a _short term_ basis .
> Something else I was thinkin' about was the valve train, have you pulled off the valve covers & tried to loosen the adjusters? to see if you have a dry stuck lifter or bent valve contacting a piston top?
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...e=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=E52AUbefO6aaiALFj4HgAg
> ...


 



Hey all, I tried to hand crank it yesterday, no dice. I threw some more wd40 through the spark plug holes... will Try again today... 

If it fails to turn over, ill start the ripping apart process...

It shouldn't be hard to crank it by hand with the plugs out, so I'm thinking this bad boy is due for a rebuild.....




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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Quick update, I will try some marvel mystery oil today, and try hand cranking again tomorrow






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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Threw in some marvel mystery oil, through the spark plug holes, but a question, can i dump a lot of it, because i was a bit conservative, i mean i used about 1/4 cup total..... 

I'll let it sit in for today, and see whats up tomorrow..... 

how are these little motors? they have torque, will i need to slap a vortech on this one as i did my vr6 corrado ??? JK 

I'm really eager to drive this bus though.... :beer: for all!


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## SANDFREAKS (Apr 10, 2013)

Marvel Mystery will work just fine. 
Putting allot in the cyl wont hurt them at all but will 
make it harder to start later on. 
Most likely it has some miles so most of it will eventualy leak past the rings. A seized motor is usually one of two things A - it overheated and is toast or B - it got water in the Carb from sitting to long. 
This is a problem for bugs more than it is a bus since a Bus's motor is protected from the elements a bit better - assuming all the Tin is in place. A breaker bar on the lower Nut (flywheel) will not hurt it. 
(unless you are freakishly strong your not going to break it) Make sure it is out of gear and tires are chock'd. 
If it wont break free with a bar your going to have to pull the motor 
and tear it down. Just popping the heads is usually not enough 
if its to far gone. 

Good luck man.


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

SANDFREAKS said:


> Marvel Mystery will work just fine.
> Putting allot in the cyl wont hurt them at all but will
> make it harder to start later on.
> Most likely it has some miles so most of it will eventualy leak past the rings. A seized motor is usually one of two things A - it overheated and is toast or B - it got water in the Carb from sitting to long.
> ...


:thumbup: 

MMO is more like a lubricant supplement in a grungy but still working engine Mino  : 
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=...on.2,or.&fp=a20f27cbc19d82c1&biw=1264&bih=824 
Whereas ATF is more like an unlocker of frozen components working rather quickly on a _very_ short term basis: 
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=...on.2,or.&fp=21c8764cf01a092c&biw=1264&bih=824 
in a _very_ targeted way . 
_Hopefully_, this is just a top end lockup problem, if so, then initially just popping the heads & cylinders off with the case still in place mounted on the trans as an engine stand usually works, then if it's found that the crank is also involved it's much easier to pull the lighter short block . 
I've done a # of out in the field repairs on open backed sand rails & buggies this way, & the more open bus engine compartment layout allows for this approach also, just throwin' it out there for consideration . 

Accch!,BTW,Hi:wave: SF  

:beer::beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Alrighty, yesterday I went ahead and dumped about half a quart of atf through the spark plug holes.... I'm gonna let it marinate for the weekend amd get back on it Monday!



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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Alrighty, yesterday I went ahead and dumped about half a quart of atf through the spark plug holes.... I'm gonna let it marinate for the weekend and get back on it Monday!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2


 Dayo Mino  , 
Given that ~1/2 of the valves are stuck open a lot of that ATF probably just drained into your exhaust system, but what is left below the valve line will be workin' away in the meantime . 
I'd suggest just pouring the rest of the 1/2QT left over right into the crankcase oil filler to mix with the engine oil . 
There _is_ engine oil in the crankcase, _right?_ 

:beer:


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Marvel oil is the best thing, i filled each cylinder after pulling each plug. i wound up having to physically pry the flywheel against the the lower bolts on one engine to get it to turn, you may have to do this after pulling the engine out a bit.


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Dayo Mino  ,
> Given that ~1/2 of the valves are stuck open a lot of that ATF probably just drained into your exhaust system, but what is left below the valve line will be workin' away in the meantime .
> I'd suggest just pouring the rest of the 1/2QT left over right into the crankcase oil filler to mix with the engine oil .
> There _is_ engine oil in the crankcase, _right?_
> ...


 

Yea there is oil, I'll go ahead and top her up with the atf....




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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

topped her up, let the oil sit for about 5 days, will try and push start/ turn the crank tomorrow....


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

*got the motor to turn!!*

so yesterday in the afternoon, i went over my gf's parents house (thats where im keeping the bus right now, better workplace, inside a gate) and i decided to throw her in 3rd and just gently push her back and forth, well whatta ya know! the motor turned! 

so i proceeded on putting the plugs back in, got everything squared away, tried firing her up and it would crank now, but no start. at least im getting closer right?

well it didnt have gas, so i filled her up and tried again, i then noticed the gas was leaking. so im hoping it is just bad fuel lines, and not the tank.

heres a pic

its the line coming out of the FPR....


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> so yesterday in the afternoon, i went over my gf's parents house (thats where im keeping the bus right now, better workplace, inside a gate) and i decided to throw her in 3rd and just gently push her back and forth, well whatta ya know! the motor turned!
> 
> so i proceeded on putting the plugs back in, got everything squared away, tried firing her up and it would crank now, but no start. *at least im getting closer right?*
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Mino  ,
Pretty much all the info you need to know about the FPR & fuel line replacement,& a _heckofalot_ more is listed here: http://www.ratwell.com/  .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Mino  ,
> Pretty much all the info you need to know about the FPR & fuel line replacement,& a _heckofalot_ more is listed here: http://www.ratwell.com/  .
> 
> :beer:


AWESOME. Thanks I really appreciate it!
:beer:



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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Yep. The hose coming from the FPR had a hole through it. I'm just gonna replace em all, along with a new fuel filter...





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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Yep. The hose coming from the FPR had a hole through it. I'm just gonna replace em all, along with a new fuel filter...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup: ,:thumbup: ,:thumbup: .

Accch!BTW ,pretty much within minutes of this successfully starting,change out your engine oil,run it for maybe a day or 2,then change the oil again .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> :thumbup: ,:thumbup: ,:thumbup: .
> 
> Accch!BTW ,pretty much within minutes of this successfully starting,change out your engine oil,run it for maybe a day or 2,then change the oil again .
> 
> :beer:





Today was great, my gfs brother ( electrician) helped me with the spark issue, we spun the crank to tdc, put the distributor to 1, and it started!!!! 
We sprayed starting fluid and she was going, now tomorrow i will top her up with fuel again.
Will record some footage tomorrow...

Now when i change the oil, can i throw in some marvel mystery oil in, run it for several minutes throughout the day, then change oil again???




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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Today was great, my gfs brother ( electrician) helped me with the spark issue, we spun the crank to tdc, put the distributor to 1, and it started!!!!
> We sprayed starting fluid and she was going, now tomorrow i will top her up with fuel again.
> Will record some footage tomorrow...
> 
> ...


*Sounds* like a plan to me Mino :thumbup: .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

*update*

Well, heres a vid, starting fluid sprayed into the throttle keeps her alive and backfiring....
im thinking the fuel pump and/or injectors are toast.


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Well, heres a vid, starting fluid sprayed into the throttle keeps her alive and backfiring....
> im thinking the fuel pump and/or injectors are toast.


Dayo Mino  ,
Well,since the injectors are initiated by the electronics in the MAF leaving the boot clamp that loose isn't helping,the double door(can you even swing the door open by hand?) inside the MAF is probably being bypassed by that after the fact intake leak,so what I'd suggest would be to tighten the clamp & T into one of the vacuum lines(the upper one is easy to get to) leading to the big holes in the side of the intake boot








Open the T
Squirt the fluid into it
Close the T
Try to start again

BTW,you have no accelerator pump,so no need to pump the pedal,just hold it down before starting to crank the engine .

If that doesn't help or get you closer then here's the _whole_ collection of diagnostics for this type of injection on _all_ applications http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.&fp=99341219a39126d2&biw=1264&bih=818 .

:beer:


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Well, heres a vid, starting fluid sprayed into the throttle keeps her alive and backfiring....
> im thinking the fuel pump and/or injectors are toast.


What's your compression reading now?,Mino  ,
Please type "compression" into a general search @ http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php  .
http://www.vw-resource.com/vw-resou...ssion&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_and=1&zoom_sort=0
Have you done a leak down test?
Please type "leak down" into a general search @ http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php  .


:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Well I found a good deal on a fuel pump, wired it in, and now I'm gonna remove and clean the injectors.... what's better to use marvel mystery oil or seafoam? 

Well on other news, here's my other vehicle with the newly equipped forge splitter my lady bought me for my birthday!







Sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Well I found a good deal on a fuel pump, wired it in, and now I'm gonna remove and clean the injectors.... what's better to use marvel mystery oil or seafoam?
> 
> Well on other news, here's my other vehicle with the newly equipped forge splitter my lady bought me for my birthday!
> 
> ...


Dayo Mino  ,
There's an interesting thread on the samba about this @ http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...14,d.cGE&fp=14dac8b8f27845a5&biw=1264&bih=818
which I _just_ read but after revisiting it the site seems to be down (maybe all the name calling goin' on there:banghead::facepalm::laugh: ).
Accch!,there it is again http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=547751

Anyways, BITD('80s) when I still worked at a VW/Audi/Porsche dealer when they were spraying pulverized walnut shells into the combustion chambers through the injector ports to clear away built up carbon(look it up,actually happened,nevermind,there it is http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.&fp=14dac8b8f27845a5&biw=1264&bih=818 ) VW & Audi just switched to using concentrated Techron(Techroline) additives http://www.google.com/#gs_rn=14&gs_...14,d.cGE&fp=14dac8b8f27845a5&biw=1264&bih=818

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...14,d.cGE&fp=14dac8b8f27845a5&biw=1264&bih=818 
until Techron became embedded @ Chevron .

I did my own little cost analysis & found that it was just cheaper to spend the extra few pennies per gallon putting a Techron based fuel into my tank every time rather than use the additive(added cost of the bottles themselves) & a cheap gas .

Here's the Seafoam reviews http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...bx=1&fp=1&biw=1264&bih=818&bav=on.2,or.&cad=b 

Here's the MMO reviews http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.&fp=14dac8b8f27845a5&biw=1264&bih=818 

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Plenty of good info! I love reading interesting things such as this, will check it out and thanks a million! :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Ps. I'm allergic to walnuts!

Sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Plenty of good info! I love reading interesting things such as this, will check it out and thanks a million! :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> Ps. I'm allergic to walnuts!
> 
> Sent from Hell


I'm allergic to cilantro, avocados(guacamole), & fish, but not:beer: so _apparently_ I'll never be healthy:laugh: .

How goes the battle there? Mino  

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Laid off of it for a bit, then got back on it. 
Still no start, sparking just fine, and its timed correctly. 
We had sprayed starting spray and she fired up and kept going with a spray every 2 seconds. 
So i know its something to do with the fueling. 
I replaced the fuel pump with a universal pump, meets voltage and psi specs. 
tested the double relay today, all is well there. 
what else can i test? FPR ? also i wanted to know what relays go here.... 


It is right under the dash along with the bar fuses (which are all good and in tact.) 
I have the bentley but do not know where i left it... 
there is two relays then 3 empty spots.....


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Laid off of it for a bit, then got back on it.
> Still no start, sparking just fine, and its timed correctly.
> We had sprayed starting spray and she fired up and kept going with a spray every 2 seconds.
> So i know its something to do with the fueling.
> ...


 Hi Mino  , 
*Until* you find your Bentley to _verify_ your setup what I see from that pic is no terminals in those open slots(correct me if I'm wrong ) which _usually_ means that nothing on _your_ setup was intended to go into them in the 1st place which kinda follows the gray wire rule http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=5389.0 . 
The fuse boxes(12) 








were built to handle not only consumer applications but also camper & industrial applications with more need to relay other buzzers & whistles which is where the #10A add-on slots also come into the picture, so unfilled relay spots are not at all unusual on more basic/simpler setups . 
Once again, *Until* you find:banghead::laugh: your Bentley to _verify_ your setup you can just match up the fuse box terminals in this pic 








to it's keys on the box 
















from 
http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring/index.html 
What I'd be taking a close look at is the 2 blue wires which look a little fried @ terminal #27 which is part of dash & other lighting not requiring a relay because it's not pinned to the current track @ the front relay side of the box but still fused on the back side, trace those wires back to their other ends to see if that is a backdoor add-on ground gone bad . 

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Looked at it real good, yeah it looks like nothing goes in them. There's no blades for the relays to slide into....

I'm currently charging the battery (AGAIN)to try and start it with each injector out to see if they are even spraying.

Things I have replaced so far:
Fuel lines
Fuel pump
Injector seals
Ignition switch
Spark plugs
Distributor ground
Bar fuses

According to the odo the motor gas 600k 

I'm thinking of replacing the FPR
Then adjusting the valves


Sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Looked at it real good, yeah it looks like nothing goes in them. There's no blades for the relays to slide into....
> 
> *I'm currently charging the battery (AGAIN)*to try and start it with each injector out to see if they are even spraying.
> 
> ...


 Mino  , 
*Can you detect* a _constant_ draw on the battery?, as in it shows 12.x volts while unhooked @ the terminals compared to 12.less than X volts when hooked up? 
FPR info http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...78,d.cGE&fp=a224560faaf1953d&biw=1264&bih=818 . 

One thing you never answered "What's your compression reading now?,Mino ". 
Can't have power creating combustion without minimum compression of the proper A/F ratio . 
Pop your plugs out: 
Wet/clean=fuel fouled 
Burned contacts=waaay too lean 
Black sooty=oil invasion/rings or valves are shot despite our efforts to mitigate that while freeing up the frozen engine 
http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=2706.0 . 
Just throwin' the books atcha in order to find that _one_ thing we're _both_ missing here . 

:beer:


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Just pull the fuel rails with the injectors hooked up and set them in a test tube. Have someone try to start it while you watch the spray pattern. 

Do you have a noid to check if the injectors are getting a signal?


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I pulled out injectors for #s 3 and 4 pistons, cranked it, and absolutely nothing came out of the injectors....

Tested the injectors plugs with a noid, no flash at all. Tested the noid on my corrado, plenty of light.

So the injectors aren't getting the command to open! What do I check here? 

Relays?
The double relay was tested and works fine...

Idk if there's any other relays to check...

Sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I pulled out injectors for #s 3 and 4 pistons, cranked it, and absolutely nothing came out of the injectors....
> 
> Tested the injectors plugs with a noid, no flash at all. Tested the noid on my corrado, plenty of light.
> 
> ...


Maybe not relays but rather sensors Mino  :
http://manuals.type4.org/ljet/troubleshooting/ljet03.html 
from
http://manuals.type4.org/ljet/ 
&
http://www.netlink.net/mp/volks/schem/fi.htm 
from
http://www.netlink.net/mp/volks/htm/elec.htm 
both from
http://www.ratwell.com/ .

:thumbup::beer: 



Sent from my







using HappyChat1982


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Maybe not relays but rather sensors Mino  :
> http://manuals.type4.org/ljet/troubleshooting/ljet03.html
> from
> http://manuals.type4.org/ljet/
> ...


1.I LOVE THE SIG. 
2.I will check this tomorrow. As I've had quite a few :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: our team lost it last nite :banghead:

Sent from Hell


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Did you try working the air flap in the air flow meter when you were cranking it? Make sure the wire from the ECU is hooked up to the ? spade terminal on the starter. It's a long shielded wire that goes to one of the spare terminals on the starter. If it is hooked up you can pull it off briefly and clean the terminal. This gives a signal to the ECU to pulse the cold-start injector.


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Jade Wombat said:


> Did you try working the air flap in the air flow meter when you were cranking it? Make sure the wire from the ECU is hooked up to the ? spade terminal on the starter. It's a long shielded wire that goes to one of the spare terminals on the starter. If it is hooked up you can pull it off briefly and clean the terminal. This gives a signal to the ECU to pulse the cold-start injector.





Did just that today, I can hear the pump pushing out fuel....

Cranked it and opened the flap, even tho the flap automatically opens, I held it open and s nothing. The injectors are not getting the command to open I believe......

Can someone tell me what is all responsible for telling the injectors to open. Im also working on the info bogeyman gave me....




Sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Checked and tightened connections to starter solenoid, still nothing. I'm just about losing my mind with this......


Starter spray starts her right up as long as we keep spraying a shot every 2 seconds...


Sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Found my Bentley, read it, and it seems like my double relay MIGHT be faulty.......

While I said in a previous post, we" tested" it but only by removing the metal casing, and visually verifying that they open and close.....


Anybody have a working double relay to sell. ....or donate!? Your name will be acknowledged in my thank you list when this bus finally runs.......

Sent from Hell


----------



## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Check your relay first with a test light on the backside of each wire before replacing it.

http://ratwell.com/mirror/potts/pictures/type2profimanual021.jpg

They still sell those relays new, CIP1 has them but they take a little over a week to get your order so I would call around to a local import parts place as they only take a few days usually. It sounds like the ECU is coming on though or not getting a signal. The ECU wire is hooked up to the negative side of the coil, good tight contact?

Another check, since your bus has been sitting, is to check the injector spray pattern by jumpering the harness:

http://ratwell.com/mirror/potts/pictures/type2profimanual023.jpg

All of this info. pulled from here:

http://ratwell.com/mirror/potts/index.html

more here:

http://ratwell.com/mirror/conservatory/BoschL-Jetronic.html (Troubleshooting flow chart)
http://www.bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zTN_Man08.pdf

Don't give up, you'll get it.


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Gonna test that relay hopefully tomorrow...

Should there be a free spade connector like this? Ota the little plug on the opposite side of the double relay, its close to the Ecu .....










sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Well, went to test the relay, but no juice in the battery. :banghead:

So now I'm charging it waiting til later....

Here's a pic of the double relay










sent from Hell


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

That free wire could be a hot wire. Check with a test light or voltmeter and at least tape it up so it won't ground out. Those spades usually have a plastic rectangular shield around them.


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Jade Wombat said:


> That free wire could be a hot wire. Check with a test light or voltmeter and at least tape it up so it won't ground out. Those spades usually have a plastic rectangular shield around them.


:thumbup:



Minotaur said:


> Well, went to test the relay, but no juice in the battery. :banghead:
> 
> So now I'm charging it waiting til later....


Sounds like you've got a constant draw on/short in the wiring system Mino  .
Unhook the battery completely while charging it, check for voltage @ the terminals once charged.
Hook it back up & check for voltage @ the terminals again.
If voltage is lower when hooked up but not turned on(key out of ignition switch) you have a draw/short somewhere in your wiring.



Minotaur said:


> Here's a pic of the double relay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


& that could very well be the source of the draw/short because at least terminals #88b-38y-86b+88c _are_ burned .
In the meantime you should be able to bypass the double relay http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.&fp=66a324ef64cb8975&biw=1264&bih=818
You'll find out _real fast_ where your draw/short is that way because _that's_ where the smoke is gonna be comin' from:banghead::laughjust keep werkin' the test light ).

:beer::beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Checked the battery after I charged it with a multimeter.... it's at 12.8
Hooked it up to the bus with ignition key to the on position.... 12.7
With no key....12.8

Tested that free spade, nothing....

sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I did however, find a great deal on a double relay... ordered it....



sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I tested the double relay following all those procedures, and It shows continuity even with the key out..... idk what that means....

Well tomorrow I get my new relay, so I'll see what's up....

I also tested the battery right after, and it shows 10.9 - 11.0

sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Alright still no power to injector harness...
Pulled plug from ecu to inspect, and saw these wires here that haven't been plugged into anything.... does anybody have a slight clue where these plug in? Starter? I'll check my Bentley later today....
These wires are coming from the ecu wire bundle..











sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Alright still no power to injector harness...
> Pulled plug from ecu to inspect, and saw these wires here that haven't been plugged into anything.... does anybody have a slight clue where these plug in? Starter? I'll check my Bentley later today....
> These wires are coming from the ecu wire bundle..
> 
> ...


Hey:wave: Mino  ,
Can't tell you offhand _exactly_ where those plug to, let's see if this helps at all:
Both wires _look_ brown to me, the plastic housing on the left _is_ a standard/generic passthrough M/FM insulator like #20 in diagram # 096-00 I posted above, so there's another corresponding free wire still foatin' around in there somewhere, _probably_ the free floatin' Male spade @ the center of this pic








(_Don't_ hook those together until you've _verified_ that via the wiring diagram & test light )
The one on the right _looks like_ it has a _dedicated_ insulating cover as in it's intended to go _only_ into one spot relatively close to the other one, if that's true you should be able to see a part# on the insulator, post up that part# & I _may_ be able to extrapolate it's _possible_ position(s) to look for/at.
Since both insulators are there that _generally_ means that both of these wires _most likely_ become hot in either the armed or start mode of the ignition switch, so verify with the test light as to _when/if_ they become hot.
If they don't become hot in either mode _carefully_ slit open the sheathing surrounding them & trace them back to their other ends, that'll _verify_ their landing points via the wiring diagram , then re-wrap them for protection or after repairing a break in them somewhere in between .
I _personally_ rarely worked on F/I problems but these'd be the _initial_ methods I'd use to verify continuity from point to point .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Ok, cut some of the sheath a bit, and that wire with the two open connectors actually u- turns, and goes to the ecu connector.....

Checked continuity, and this pic shows that the spade has continuity with terminal numbers 9, 27, 28, 29 and 30....









I moved the other open connector out of the way, but now I will check that one....




Checked it, and the other plug has continuity with terminal 24....


sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Ok, cut some of the sheath a bit, and that wire with the two open connectors actually u- turns, and goes to the ecu connector.....
> 
> Checked continuity, and this pic shows that the spade has continuity with terminal numbers 9, 27, 28, 29 and 30....
> 
> ...


Mino  ,have you considered getting local/handson advice _from_ or just getting this _to_ a local aircooled VW specialist?
I checked http://www.thesamba.com/vw/shops/search.php & none showed up in San Antonio ,so I did this search :
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...08,d.cGE&fp=7087f54e65974a0c&biw=1264&bih=818

Also contact the links shown here:
"Name Volkswagen Owners of San Antonio - VOSA 
Location San Antonio 
Description Volkswagen Owners of San Antonio is a family oriented car club devoted to the restoration and enjoyment of all models of VWs. VOSA is home to both air-cooled and water-cooled VWs. 

We meet on the 2nd Sunday of the month and annual events include "Worldwide Day of the Beetle" in June and "Oktoberfest!" in October. 
Contact Info [email protected] 
Website http://www.vosaclub.org 

Name San Antonio Air Coolers 
Location San Antonio 
Description All air cooled VW's welcome! Rock on Alamo City! 
Contact Info [email protected] 
Website http://www.aircoolers.org 

Name S.A.M.B.A. San Antonio Micro Bus Amigos 
Location San Antonio 
Description A loose knit group of pre 1967 Split Window microbus owners, future owners, and fans of the early microbus. No dues, no president, just a bunch of fun loving guys and gals who love their busses, and help each other out. 
Contact Info To join, just drop us a line at: 
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SanAntonioMicroBusAmigos/ 
Website http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SanAntonioMicroBusAmigos/ 

Name VOCHITOS San Antonio Volkswagen Car Club 
Location San Antonio 
Description Vochitos was founded in April 2010. We are a family oriented Club, open to all air VWs. We are True San Antonio born and raised VW Club. 

Vochitos is based on Brotherhood! Guys and girls that are friends living the VW lifestyle. We are a group of Laid back VW fanatics!!! A great club for the whole family. We meet every two weeks and have various events scheduled throughout the year. Hablamos español tambien raza!! Come check us out!! 
Contact Info [email protected] 
Website http://vochitos.org "
from http://www.thesamba.com/vw/clubs/index.php "
You _may very well_ have someone more F/I savvy right around the corner from you who _isn't_ keeping an eye on _this_ conversation between us _on this site_ who can lend a free or at least inexpensive hand , we're goin' on almost 3 months of _long distance_ trial & error so far , all that needs to happen here is for the injectors to fire, this http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=4302.0 _may_ also help you determine which way to go next . 

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

*will check this out*

thanks for the info man!
i knew SA at least had some groups, but damn!
i will contact some folks, im sure it is something ridiculously small that will fix this!! 
now i will read my bentley some more, and send some emails out!!



:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Pulled out the harness on this beautiful Saturday afternoon...










Tested every fn' plug to the ecu connector for continuity....










The harness is good.
So I went ahead and checked for continuity from the battery terminal to the double relay...









So the double relay is receiving power, which powers the ecu correct?

I have came up with the possible problem(s)
Ecu or the ballast resistor pack.
Ignition coil wire to ecu is on the negative spade side of the ignition coil...

And I believe that those two unused connectors I mentioned before are for that. Simply no use for them, I heard only European buses make use of them.....


What do you guys think?



sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Pulled out the harness on this beautiful Saturday afternoon...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"But damn!":laugh: right back atcha Mino  , after all this is over _you_ gonna be da




:laugh: 
fixin' _everybody else's_ cars in the neighborhood:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer: .

*So to that end* here's _targeted_ diagnostic info on both of those components:
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...bx=1&fp=1&biw=1280&bih=832&bav=on.2,or.&cad=b 

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.&fp=fb3713f43fe2689a&biw=1280&bih=832

Have you verified that you have the _correct_ ECU for _your_ application?
I just re-read up on the free Euro connections & that looks correct, *pretty much like* http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=5389.0 , same thing as having a 35 port pin connector housing while only select ports apply to specific applications .
Just:banghead::laugh: realized that we already covered *that* one http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...g-a-77-Bus&p=82194510&viewfull=1#post82194510 .

:beer:


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Those two free wires you had in that one picture may or may not be the wide-open throttle (WOT) switch on the throttle body. With most any wires on the harness you can just pull them over to different points on the engine compartment and see where it looks like it would hook up and find an empty spade connector. Your continuity tests should tell you though. You marked all the free wires with number tags?

The power to turn the ECU on is from the (-) side of the coil. When you turn the key to the first position you should hear the fuel pump buzz for a brief second. What happens is the ignition coil gets energized. When you actually crank the engine this gives power to the ECU from the ignition pulses. I.e. if the there is no spark no signal is sent to the ECU to fire the injectors.


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Jade Wombat said:


> Those two free wires you had in that one picture may or may not be the wide-open throttle (WOT) switch on the throttle body. With most any wires on the harness you can just pull them over to different points on the engine compartment and see where it looks like it would hook up and find an empty spade connector. Your continuity tests should tell you though. You marked all the free wires with number tags?
> 
> The power to turn the ECU on is from the (-) side of the coil. When you turn the key to the first position you should hear the fuel pump buzz for a brief second. What happens is the ignition coil gets energized. When you actually crank the engine this gives power to the ECU from the ignition pulses. I.e. if the there is no spark no signal is sent to the ECU to fire the injectors.



Yeah first thing I did was check for spark at the distributor, spraying starting fluid into it kept her going....

I'm going to hit it hard tomorrow and clean all the contacts I can find...


sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Checked the ignition coil terminals, with the key switched to the on position, and the test lamp doesn't light up...

sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Checked the ignition coil terminals, with the key switched to the on position, and the test lamp doesn't light up...
> 
> sent from Hell


So _no_ power is getting _from_ the switch _to_ the coil in the 1st place:banghead: .
Either 1) the switch is bad or 2) the wiring from the switch to the coil is bad Mino  .
Verify that you're getting power out of the switch _@ the switch_ http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...99,d.cGE&fp=eff12f71468793c8&biw=1280&bih=832 

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/IgnitionSystem.html
If not replace the switch
http://www.vw-resource.com/ignition_switch_replacement.html
basic structure & breakdown is the same as on a bug .
If so you need to trace down a wire break between the switch & coil.

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks buggyman! 

Would you happen to have a picture of the ignition coil with all the wires going to it so I can compare? I'm starting to think something is wired wrong...


Here's mine right now










sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Thanks buggyman!
> 
> Would you happen to have a picture of the ignition coil with all the wires going to it so I can compare? I'm starting to think something is wired wrong...
> 
> ...


Hey  Mino  ,
All negative ground based system coils hook up the same way http://www.google.com/search?q=vw+i...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=IlHvUfSUF4SGjALPg4GACg
As you can see http://www.google.com/search?q=vw i...47,d.cGE&fp=781b31c97b6023a3&biw=1280&bih=832 hooking it up incorrectly has pretty dire consequences, looking @ your pic it _appears_ to be hooked up backwards , power in from the switch should be on the left of the sticker staring glaringly back atcha, power out from the right of the sticker








from
http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=5579.0
but _please_ verify that 1st with the other info provided .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Much appreciated info buggyman, I have printed a few pictures so I can compare when I get on it later today...

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Checked the ignition coil the way it's plugged right now,(pic I posted) key to on position, and the test lamp lit up. I.think I wasn't checking it correctly the other day....
The pic I posted before, the green wire is on terminal 1.... it's that wire and the wire to the ecu that are on terminal 1.....



sent from Hell


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Went to a local buggy shoppe that's next door to a flea Market that I visit regularly, and talked to the mechanic there for a bit. I told him my problem, he told me me that he remembers a ground spade that plugs into the negative wire going to the battery.... I showed him that open spade I had posted a pic of a few posts ago..... he says that might be the one.... anywho here's pics of a bugs setup he had there... It was converted to carb....




















This is the wire he mentioned. Comes from the harness and connects into the ground cable that connects into the negative side of battery.....


















sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Jade Wombat said:


> Those two free wires you had in that one picture may or may not be the wide-open throttle (WOT) switch on the throttle body. With most any wires on the harness you can just pull them over to different points on the engine compartment and see where it looks like it would hook up and find an empty spade connector. Your continuity tests should tell you though. You marked all the free wires with number tags?
> 
> The power to turn the ECU on is from the (-) side of the coil. When you turn the key to the first position you should hear the fuel pump buzz for a brief second. What happens is the ignition coil gets energized. When you actually crank the engine this gives power to the ECU from the ignition pulses. I.e. if the there is no spark no signal is sent to the ECU to fire the injectors.


Hi  Jade  ,
Can you please open up a help request @ http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=14&sid=fb64dd463dac5783e9ce2c6feac16944 ?, I lost my logon info there & now I'm locked out due to too many attempts:banghead: .

Mino  , buy the shop guy a 







 
& have him make a house call .

:beer::beer:


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

How's this goin'? Mino  .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> How's this goin'? Mino  .
> 
> :beer:


Took a break from it, gonna get on it tomorrow....

I'm gonna see if all the grounds are ok, the ignition coils terminals are making power, so I'm thinking something isn't grounded....

The ground spades on the block are filthy, so I'm gonna degrease them...

And for the heck of it I'm gonna ground that one loose spade and see what happens.
All else fails, I'm getting that mechanic to come over and buy him a bottle of whiskey!


sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Took a break from it, gonna get on it tomorrow....
> 
> I'm gonna see if all the grounds are ok, the ignition coils terminals are making power, so I'm thinking something isn't grounded....
> 
> ...


*That's* the spirits:laugh: Mino :thumbup: .
Hang in there bro , lookin' forward to seeing a vid of this pumpin' air & fuel through itself on it's own .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Update, well I visited a local aircooled/water cooled shop, very friendly owner, is in the vochitos club here in sa, he gave me a really good deal on a conversion to carb, so I'm just gonna save up a few bucks and do that.

sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Update, well I visited a local aircooled/water cooled shop, very friendly owner, is in the vochitos club here in sa, he gave me a really good deal on a conversion to carb, so I'm just gonna save up a few bucks and do that.
> 
> sent from Hell


 EXCELLENT!:thumbup: choice Mino  , 
Make a point to recycle/sell off all the known good working components of the FI system in order to recover costs yourself unless the shop owner is agreeing to give you a better price for the carb setup in exchange for those components which he can use to repair other cars . 

:beer:


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Yeah, sometimes you just want to get the darned thing running. You can always mess with the FI later, too. 

Buggy, I sent a message to the admin on STF, but not sure if it went through. Wordpress forums are a little weird about sending PMs sometimes.


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Jade Wombat said:


> Yeah, sometimes you just want to get the darned thing running. You can always mess with the FI later, too.
> 
> Buggy, I sent a message to the admin on STF, but not sure if it went through. Wordpress forums are a little weird about sending PMs sometimes.


Thanks Jade  , I was a little freaked out that the last(& only to my knowledge) password didn't work again, but it has been a few years since I created it, remember Dubs McGee  ?

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Hey buggyman, would you know what fuel pump would be best to use when I convert over to carburetor? 




sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Hey buggyman, would you know what fuel pump would be best to use when I convert over to carburetor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Kinda_ depends on _which_ carbs you end up with Mino  , off the top of my head I'd think that the "really good deal on a conversion to carb" would include something like a http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4207 along with a _really_ good FPR like a http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=5348 or http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=5347 from http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog...or&osCsid=0q8tumf76oqgm462f3dunfcrg1&x=17&y=6 .
If he's planning on using the stock pump you already have then just a _really_ good FPR which _should_ come with the kit .
Get to know the rest of the Vochitos & other club's members in your area .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Well, I want to become an aircooled master like some of you guys. And I was told that this carb install would be not as difficult as my supercharging of my vr6 corrado... SOOO I am going to embark on this journey to carb alone....

Here's the kit I want
http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=290937871438

Here's the pump I'm looking at
http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=310491414221



sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Well, I want to become an aircooled master like some of you guys. And I was told that this carb install would be not as difficult as my supercharging of my vr6 corrado... SOOO I am going to embark on this journey to carb alone....
> 
> Here's the kit I want
> http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=290937871438
> ...


OK Mino  ,
Lets take a look @ some reviews :
http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=vw+bus+fuel+injection+to+carburetor+reviews 

http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=Porsche+914+fuel+injection+to+carburetor+reviews

http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=EMPI DUAL EPC 34 reviews 

http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=34+ICT

http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=facet+electric+fuel+pump+reviews 

http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=airtex+e8016s+electric+fuel+pump+reviews
Along with the quote directly from your link "When converting from fuel injection use of a low volume fuel pump (3.0psi) max is required".
So you're also _still gonna need_ a _really good_ FPR http://www.google.com/#fp=aa83bdf441d608d0&q=best+vw+dual+carb+fuel+pressure+regulator .
Armed & packin':vampire::laugh: .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Alright, plenty of good info!
Mixed reviews of the Empi kit, but mainly from people who bought it used. Ill be purchasing new...
Fuel pump looks to be ok, FPR will require me to buy a cheap little gauge to make sure I'm at 3psi....
Ebay seller told me the install is straightforward and the install manual is very detailed....
Distributor can stay, but a 009 would be better I was told...

I'm looking forward to this!

sent from Hell


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Junk. Sorry, but they are. Dealt with these things new out of the box twice and a month later the carbs needed syncing again.

At least get cable linkages, you may spent less time tinkering down the road.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1381017


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Jade Wombat said:


> Junk. Sorry, but they are. Dealt with these things new out of the box twice and a month later the carbs needed syncing again.
> 
> At least get cable linkages, you may spent less time tinkering down the road.
> 
> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1381017


 What's a good kit?



sent from Hell


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> What's a good kit?
> 
> 
> 
> sent from Hell


Take a _long_ look @ the 32/36 progressives in both the VW & Porsche FI to carb conversion links I last posted Mino  .








from
http://www.redlineweber.com/carb-kits/auto/porsche/
Pros: ~$150.00 more but _no_ synchronization hassles, _very_ fuel efficient for an _unmodified_ DD but with a kick on demand , electric choke .
Cons: _Possible_ icing of the intake runners if custom preheating is not added, other minor fitment problems.
Notice that there are other 30/36 type variations http://www.google.com/#fp=d76950a63ace124e&q=32/36+DFEV .
The next step up is dual 40 IDF's & with _all_ dual carb systems there is a learning curve of how to avoid having to resynch often, I had to resynch my 44 IDF's probably a couple of 100 of times early on over an ~35 year span mostly in uber rough offroad conditions.
Another thing to look at when viewing reviews is "when was this posted?", more often than not you'll find that the latest _complaints_ about a product are 5-10-15 years old:banghead: , people tend not to complain when everything works just fine for them, only when they can't take the time to figure it out & _make_ it work for them .

:beer:


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Not to jump the gun, I know you're still trying to get the darned thing to move under its own power, but once you get it up and running and since you've messed with Motronic in the past you probably wouldn't be too scared to go computeriz'd with a crank trigger ignition. 

Megajolt I ran on my bug with a carb. and picked up a couple of hp after I had everything dialed in. It's pretty straightforward and the cost was about $350 or so all told.

http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=139125&hilit=notes+on+megajolt


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

would any of you guys be interested in buying the harness and other FI stuff when i take it out?

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


----------



## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Unless you need the money, I'd say hang onto it in case you change your mind or move to an area where you have to do an emissions test. These systems don't sell for a lot.


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I sourced a Center manifold and carburetor on the Samba, some fuel lines, fuel pump, FPR, will i have to switch the fuel filter? I currently have the big boxy one on right now.

I also stumbled on this
http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4209

I had asked Buggyman if i can use my existing runners, but he brought me a cool point, on backfiring, the injectors i leave on the existing runners to plug the hole up, might shoot out!

IF anybody by any chance knows where i can get used runners like the ones listed above, LMK...
If not ill be heading over to thebuggywarehouse which is right down the road from me, pricing them, and seeing which is the better value!

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: to all! TGIF!


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I had asked Buggyman if i can use my existing runners, but he brought me a cool point, on backfiring, the injectors i leave on the existing runners to plug the hole up, might shoot out!


Accchhh! Mino  ,
Please re-read :


buggyman said:


> Dayo Mino  ,
> Well, _if_ the stock runners boot(#27) _directly_ up with the new center section pretty much all you'd have to do is just leave the unhooked-up injectors bolted up into the end castings, as long as the #'s 28 & 29 rubber bushings are up to snuff & snug I'd _think_ that this could be do-able because the injectors _should_ be locked closed without a signal to open going to them.
> *I'd replace the short fuel lines(#40A) with clamped on (#38) vacuum plugs
> 
> ...


It'd take a hand grenade blast:laugh: to blow the injectors out of their retainers, all I was talking about was securing the caps to the injectors because there'd be no fuel pressure on the back side of the injectors from the fuel rails, using the runners you have should work fine as long as you take care of these _little_ precautions .

:beer:


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I sourced a Center manifold and carburetor on the Samba, some fuel lines, fuel pump, FPR, will i have to switch the fuel filter? I currently have the big boxy one on right now.


Dayo Mino  ,
The big







:laugh: 
FI fuel filter http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog...php?keywords=fuel+filter&image.x=19&image.y=9 
will work finer than whine:laugh::thumbup: because it's intended for FI which requires a higher degree of filtering capability https://www.google.com/#q=vw+gasoline+fuel+filter+microns  along with increased flow capacity, people buy the cheep:laugh: round plastic ones because, well, they're both cheep:laugh: & adaptable to both 5mm & 7mm fuel lines & in planned circumstances be changed out _more often_ on the quick









:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

*Update*

Well i received the center mount manifold piece and the carb.
The Carburetor is a Weber 32/36 DFAV.
Can someone give me a bit of info on this one? I'm searching on the net and seeing some vague information on this carb....


I will either order a rebuild or "tune-up" kit on eBay, or from the buggy warehouse, whichever is cheaper in price...

Now, i see where the fuel line goes, and i see a vacuum port as well... Where the heck does that plug into? the distributor? I have the stock distributor right now ....

Edit: Also, what about Jets?


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Well i received the center mount manifold piece and the carb.
> The Carburetor is a Weber 32/36 DFAV.
> Can someone give me a bit of info on this one? I'm searching on the net and seeing some vague information on this carb....
> 
> ...


Pretty much everything here https://www.google.com/#q=Weber+32/36+DFAV & https://www.google.com/#q=Weber+32/36+DFAV+tuning Mino  .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

*Question*

Quick question, what are the sizes i need on these for my motor to run properly?
The top piece shows 180
The bottom inside the float chamber shows 140
(Type 4 motor, 2.0L)











also what about the jets?
are these ok?


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Quick question, what are the sizes i need on these for my motor to run properly?
> The top piece shows 180
> The bottom inside the float chamber shows 140
> (Type 4 motor, 2.0L)
> ...


Dayo Mino  ,
The upper ones are your air correction jets & the lower ones are your main jets .
The second pic shows your secondary venturis , as long as those slots are pointing down when you slip them into place you're fine:thumbup: .
180-140 sounds like a real good starting combo for a stock cammed application .


Like said: 


buggyman said:


> Pretty much everything here https://www.google.com/#q=Weber+32/36+DFAV & https://www.google.com/#q=Weber+32/36+DFAV+tuning Mino  .
> 
> :beer:


DFEV's are just the electronically choked version of DFAV's, so any DFEV info you see aside from choke info will also apply to your DFAV .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Dayo Mino  ,
> The upper ones are your air correction jets & the lower ones are your main jets .
> The second pic shows your secondary venturis , as long as those slots are pointing down when you slip them into place you're fine:thumbup: .
> 180-140 sounds like a real good starting combo for a stock cammed application .
> ...


Thanks Buggy, that helps a ton!
Here are some virtual :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

:laugh:


Minotaur said:


> Thanks Buggy, that helps a ton!
> Here are some virtual :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


GULP!GULP!GULP!GULP!GULP!GULP!(Burp , AAAAH! ) , thanks Mino  .
Carburetion is just a matter of _efficient_ & _accurate_ emulsification :




from
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...31.3.3.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.PGuI7agPJzQ
Primary & secondary fuel & air correction jet settings can each be adjusted manually rather than having a more virtual FI system make those decisions for you = _you_ are the ECU .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

haha, seriously though, if you were in TX, I'd offer you some beers!
Well I bought a heater element to put on the choke, just gonna go pick up the little metal piece that bolts it on, and an air filter, and put it all on today hopefully....


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm looking right at you buggyman!

The throttle needs to get to the other point. I ordered an extension, but any additional help is greatly appreciated!!


Sent from Hell


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

:banghead: now I know! You drill a damn hole through the tin to line up right?

Anybody?

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I'm looking right at you buggyman!
> 
> The throttle needs to get to the other point. I ordered an extension, but any additional help is greatly appreciated!!
> 
> ...


(I _thought_ I felt _someone_ peering over my shoulder:laugh: )



Minotaur said:


> :banghead: now I know! You drill a damn hole through the tin to line up right?
> 
> Anybody?
> 
> Sent from Hell


Dayo Mino  ,
NO! , _I_ think you should drill a damn hole through the tin to line up _left_!:laugh: .:thumbup:








http://www.status-vw.co.uk/bay-van-...conversion-kit-for-t2-bay-and-t25-models.html
(look under "Q&A" for more info )
from
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....1ac.1.24.heirloom-hp..21.11.1072.5MUd836oDsY 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
Make sure you use the #7 cable sheath over the trans & that it smoothly clears everything down there with the gentlest gradual bend .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

A quick update... the runners will NOT line up with the centermount. So they sell a runner kit, which empi makes. I checked it out and each runner has a different length to fit correctly... so now I wait upon ordering it...

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> A quick update... *the runners will NOT line up with the center mount.* So they sell a runner kit, which Empi makes. I checked it out and each runner has a different length to fit correctly... so now I wait upon ordering it...
> 
> Sent from Hell


*Dag nab it!*




 :laugh: 
I was _seriously_ hoping/thinking that they _might_ Mino  .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Update!!!!!!










Sent from Hell


----------



## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

Replace the engine seal also. The seal is like $20. That gap around the engine tin will burn up that motor eventually.


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Jade Wombat said:


> Replace the engine seal also. The seal is like $20. That gap around the engine tin will burn up that motor eventually.


That is good to know, thanks!

Also what is the piece that links the throttle cable to the little ball piece on the carb, to pull the throttle to the open position?



Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> That is good to know, thanks!
> 
> Also what is the piece that links the throttle cable to the little ball piece on the carb, to pull the throttle to the open position?
> 
> ...


Mino!  ,
Could you please post up a vid or 2(from above & from the right side ) of you operating _just_ the carb linkage set up that way?
Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks like you'd have to push it open rather than pull set up that way .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I think I have found the solution buggy, I have the throttle extender which I will mount up tomorrow and press the pedal to see if it opens the carb correctly...

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I think I have found the solution buggy, I have the throttle extender which I will mount up tomorrow and press the pedal to see if it opens the carb correctly...
> 
> Sent from Hell


:thumbup: , soooo, I was wrong on the direction of throttle lever travel @ the carb?


:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Not necessarily, there is a hole where I can fit the barrell piece of the throttle extender which result in a pulling of the linkage when the gas is pressed....

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Not necessarily, there is a hole where I can fit the barrell piece of the throttle extender which result in a pulling of the linkage when the gas is pressed....
> 
> Sent from Hell


Got it , _please_ make _sure_ that this is as un-cumbersome, smooth & simple as possible, this may take some strategically placed & lubricated washers/shims sandwiched along with a little blue Loctite on the bolt to "set" it @ a specific tension .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Minotaur said:


> Sent from Hell


_Now_ Mino  ,
_If_ that cable guide tube(#7)








seems to want to flop around or slide/walk with the movement of the cable I'd suggest a fender washer followed up by a small screw clamp from both the front & back of the pass through to sandwich the tube @ the _exact_ position of both best full throw relationship between the pedal & throttle plate & smoothest action.
On mine
















you can _barely_ see the silver outline of a single mini clamp on my guide tube on the front side of the shroud because Type 1 guide tubes(#49)








have a flair on the back side.
You may also want to pick up a single Type 1 heater cable grommet(#18)








https://www.google.com/search?q=ac+...Q_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=832&dpr=1#q=113-711-+691
which is the same thing I did on the copper tube @ both ends on my rail
















pack the guide tube with white grease & mini clamp that grommet to the carb end of the tube for slicker than snickers:laugh: operation .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> _Now_ Mino  ,
> _If_ that cable guide tube(#7)
> ...


Got more pictures buggy? 
So I can get a better visual, I somewhat have an idea though...


Thanks!!!

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Got more pictures buggy?
> So I can get a better visual, I somewhat have an idea though...
> 
> 
> ...


Well, let's try this Mino  :








Imagine that the green portion shown is your front plate(#10)








& instead of nuts on a threaded dowel like shown use a couple of








to lock the back end of your guide tube in a _specific_ position so the guide tube can't slip off of the chassis tube @ the front of it & jam up your linkage @ the throttle lever .
What this also does is solidify the relationship between how far the gas pedal can travel compared to how far the throttle lever travels so that you're neither stretching(slowly breaking) the cable or bending/binding the throttle lever/shaft when you mash down on the pedal all the way(you will:laugh: ,eventually ) & also ensures that you're getting full throttle when you do mash down on the pedal = the ratio between the pedal & throttle lever need to be 1:1 & stay @ 1:1 throughout both of their travels .

The reason I put a clamp on my shroud guide tube was that it'd walk toward the carb as I operated the pedal through it's travel & since the tube is curved that changed the ratio as it moved. This normally doesn't happen on stock setups but I was using a modified chassis & had to adapt as you are now using a modified cable route & will/may have to adapt .
The reason I put the heater cable grommets @ both ends of my copper chassis tube was that sand & little pebbles were being thrown up from both the front & rear wheels & jamming




 :laugh:
the cable inside the tube(a locked open throttle @ 100+ MPH off road ist muy no bueno!, trust me:banghead::facepalm::laugh: ).
https://www.google.com/#q=unintended+acceleration
If there is a physical construction flaw in the throttle controls all you do is turn the ignition key off - throw it into neutral - stomp on the brakes, so where I'm goin' with this is that you _verify_ that _that_ flaw doesn't exist _or can even become a possibility_ by design , practice doing this anyway in your own trusted car just in case this arises on say a borrowed car , I had to do this on the fly in my brand new 1981 Jetta pickup because the throttle plate nut was set too tight @ the factory.

:beer:


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Waitin' to hear back from you Mino  .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I bought a bunch of hardware to try what you told me buggy, to keep the guide tube in place. And I finished everything, fuel pump is wired in everything if set! Just need to fill her up and toss in a battery. But I've been working all day n night so I haven't had time... but I'm off the weekend!!!!!

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I bought a bunch of hardware to try what you told me buggy, to keep the guide tube in place. And I finished everything, fuel pump is wired in everything if set! Just need to fill her up and toss in a battery. But I've been working all day n night so I haven't had time... but I'm off the weekend!!!!!
> 
> Sent from Hell


It's Wednesday Mino   .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Put some gas in her, threw a battery and nothing! :-(


Am I missing something?
The starter didn't even click so its not getting power..... 
Should I leave the double relay and resistor pack connected?

Any tips on how a FI to carb conversion is setup wiring wise would be appreciated!!




Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Put some gas in her, threw a battery and nothing! :-(
> 
> 
> Am I missing something?
> ...


Well Mino  , the double relay & resistor pack are tied into the _injection_ system in order to accommodate a signal to fire https://www.google.com/#q=purpose+of+the+vw+bus+double+relay 
https://www.google.com/#q=purpose+of+the+vw+bus+resistor+pack
no more injection signal needed pretty much means eliminate the relay & pack & use the https://www.google.com/#q=the+kiss+principle to wire everything as direct as possible like a non-injected bus engine http://www.vintagebus.com/ = a heckofalot less to mess with & diagnose .
Are you getting power _to_ the ignition switch? & are you getting power _out of_ the ignition switch? https://www.google.com/#q=vw+bus+no+click+from+starter , no to either of those = bad wiring to the switch or just a bad switch .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I went to a custom vw aircooled shop that is right down the road from I live, and the owner was telling me he had the same issue with his own FI to carb conversion, that usually an additional relay needs to be installed....

So I will probably be taking the bus to them next week....




Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I went to a custom vw aircooled shop that is right down the road from I live, and the owner was telling me he had the same issue with his own FI to carb conversion, that usually an additional relay needs to be installed....
> 
> So I will probably be taking the bus to them next week....
> 
> ...


Accch, OK Mino  , sounds like this is what they were talkin' about http://www.ratwell.com/technical/DoubleRelay.html , _adapting_ a _bypass_ of the double relay on an FI harness, what I'm talkin' about is to modify the harness to an earlier(simpler) format which never required the/any relay in the 1st place , please run this POV by them which they may not have thought about @ that time .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Buggy! I think this is what he was talking about... 


Sound like something I need?

https://www.busdepot.com/wr1

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Buggy! I think this is what he was talking about...
> 
> 
> Sound like something I need?
> ...


Dayo Mino  ,
Let's read what that says:
"If your starter often clicks or does nothing at all when you turn the key (particularly if the engine is warm), this relay kit may solve the problem. It allows a direct feed from your battery to starter, instead of routing the battery's feed all the way to your ignition switch and back again as in the poor factory design. Your ignition switch will just trigger the relay, but won't have to actually supply the current to the starter. This modification was recommended in John Muir's "How to Keep Your VW Alive" (aka the Idiot Guide). Before trying this, check the obvious (bad connections, bad battery, etc.). If this kit doesn't solve your problem then you may need a new starter and/or starter solenoid."
This is known of as a "hot start" or "hard start" relay, used when the connection between the switch & starter are compromised by heat fractured wires between them which increases resistance especially in hot conditions, these were _very_ commonly added to cars with autostick transmissions.
That said, when you removed the double relay you removed a link in the chain of events between the switch & starter, so what they did was replace the 1/2 of the double relay(green 1/2)







:banghead::laugh: 
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/DoubleRelay.html
which provided that link & replaced it with another single relay in order to make that connection again, so, yes, you _can_ do it that way:thumbup: .
What troubles me is the way that The Bus Depot over simply _worded_ it, there was no "poor factory design"(power still has to go to the switch which energizes the added in relay between the switch & starter) except for routing the wiring too close to heat retaining sources &/or not creating enough insulation in order to protect those wires @ those spots, I used that "poor factory design" to _direct_ wire my whole rail unrelayed & unfused ~35+ years ago in order to have less chance of failure out in the field, which it _still_ hasn't .
So if there's nothing physically wrong with your switch, wires, or starter all you need to do is create the direct connection(the 1st scene seen here )




 :laugh:
between the switch & starter without a relay which _can_ fail over time.

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

One day I'll be at buggyman status!

10 dollars later... 










Sent from Hell


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Installed the relay kit and the starter now has power.
Will pour some gas down the carb to get her wet again...

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> *One day I'll be at buggyman status!*
> 
> 10 dollars later...
> 
> ...


*Don't know* if you wanna be there Mino  , everyone else around you starts to ask near to impossible to answer questions:banghead::laugh: . 



Minotaur said:


> Installed the relay kit and the starter now has power.
> Will pour some gas down the carb to get her wet again...
> 
> :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:
> ...


http://www.hark.com/clips/dttmnfvwvy-its-the-simple-things-in-life-you-treasure :laugh: .

Wait a minute , _who's_ gettin' all wet again?







:laugh: .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm gonna see about throwing some gas in the carb today, will report back!

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I'm gonna see about throwing some gas in the carb today, will report back!
> 
> Sent from Hell


Any luck? Mino  .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Jumped the relay to give the pump power. Pump works, fuel goes to carb but still no start. The carb sound like its dry too. I hear it but it sounds like its spitting dry...


Also my battery is crap so I have to connect my jump pack to it to try and start.

The starter cranks now due to the hot start relay I put in.

But I'm going to be buying a new battery tomorrow, I'm thinking the battery is way to weak, it can barely power the starter, and I think its all due to my jump pack. Starter turns very slllllooowwwwllllyyyy.

If that's the case I doubt the coil is getting juice to send to the distributor.....

Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Hey  Mino  ,








Did you rebuild this carb?, check for float function/level?, clearness of all ports?
Flip the choke flaps open with one finger & operate the throttle lever with the other hand while looking down the throats, are the accelerator pump jets working?

If the battery is holding ~12.5 volts under no load but drops drastically when you put a load on it even with the hard start relay in place then it sounds like you've still got some other compromised wires or grounds to trace down there.

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Hey  Mino  ,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buggy I have done none of that! :-(

But look at my spark plugs!









The carb is spitting too much! I have already checked and its successful in:
Fuel pump
Spark





Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> *Buggy I have done none of that!*
> But look at my spark plugs!
> 
> 
> ...


*Need to!* .
When you say "spitting" do you mean back up the carb? = waaaay too lean = _some_ fuel is getting in there but not enough to keep running or rev = stuck closed/almost closed float valve/too little fuel pressure or plugged jets or ports, only the accelerator pump is working = idles but barks @ you when try to rev it.
Or did you mean to say "sputtering"? = waaaay too rich = stuck wide open float valve/too much fuel pressure which is actually overflowing the float bowl & drowning the emulsion tubes = fuel fouled/washed clean spark plugs after a couple of initial fires.
The plug looks fuel fouled to me https://www.google.com/search?q=fue...CEogTg2YCwBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=832 , spark, spark, drown.
Back to a follow up compression/ignition timing check & https://www.google.com/#q=Weber+32/36+DFAV+tuning , you _are_ the ECU  .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> *Need to!* .
> When you say "spitting" do you mean back up the carb? = waaaay too lean = _some_ fuel is getting in there but not enough to keep running or rev = stuck closed/almost closed float valve/too little fuel pressure or plugged jets or ports, only the accelerator pump is working = idles but barks @ you when try to rev it.
> Or did you mean to say "sputtering"? = waaaay too rich = stuck wide open float valve/too much fuel pressure which is actually overflowing the float bowl & drowning the emulsion tubes = fuel fouled/washed clean spark plugs after a couple of initial fires.
> The plug looks fuel fouled to me https://www.google.com/search?q=fue...CEogTg2YCwBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=832 , spark, spark, drown.
> ...


Its spraying way too much gas....

I'm thinking I'll have to take it to get rebuilt and jetted...

Im going to read up on the links you provided!



Sent from Hell


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> Its spraying way too much gas....
> 
> I'm thinking I'll have to take it to get rebuilt and jetted...
> 
> ...


Probably best to DIY Mino  , the best 1st one to concentrate on is http://www.carburetion.com/Weber/adjust.htm , this way you'll _know_ what's goin' on & _why_ .
A carb is like a house:
1)There's a foundation = the idle circuit, crappy:banghead: foundation = nothing above it will survive or thrive .
which transitions into
2)There's walls = midrange = jets & accelerator pump shots = normal drivability.
which transitions into
3)There's a roof = WOT(giddy, bloody floored:laugh: ) = jets & emulsion tubes = top end power band.
Just get it to cleanly idle all on it's own & the other 2 you just adjust .

You can't take the carb to someone & tell them to make it run the way you want it to, they can only guesstimate what the settings should be by charts & graphs, you or someone else called in _has_ to make the final settings with _that_ carb on _that_ engine .

:beer:


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Any updates? Mino  
http://chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=8711.msg56119#msg56119 

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

It starts and runs now!!
I put gas in a bottle, pulled the fuel line off the carb from the pump and ran a fuel line from the bottle gravity feeding. Bus started up and ran absolutely fine...

So I need a pump (3-4 psi) and some plugs....
My birthday is Saturday, I'm trying to see who will surprise me (longshot)




Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> It starts and runs now!!
> I put gas in a bottle, pulled the fuel line off the carb from the pump and ran a fuel line from the bottle gravity feeding. Bus started up and ran absolutely fine...
> 
> So I need a pump (3-4 psi) and some plugs....
> ...


Dayo Mino  ,








http://chircoestore.com/fuel-pump-electronic-facet-pump.html
& a








http://chircoestore.com/fuel-pump-pressure-regulator.html
Gravity feed is basically/almost 0 pressure, so please check your float for buoyancy https://www.google.com/#q=check+your+weber+carb+float+for+buoyancy , your float level https://www.google.com/#q=check+your+weber+carb+float+level , & float valve https://www.google.com/#q=check+your+weber+carb+float+valve to make _sure_ it's _actually_ shutting off under pressure .

:beer:


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

http://youtu.be/ilBtoQOghoY



Sent from Hell


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

http://youtu.be/ilBtoQOghoY

Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

So tested the fuel pump and yup its not pushing fuel. So I have it soaking in seafoam at the moment

Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> So tested the fuel pump and yup its not pushing fuel. So I have it soaking in seafoam at the moment
> 
> Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2





buggyman said:


> Dayo Mino  ,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Soooo, Mino  , is this gonna be ~_another_ week & a 1/2 of soaking in the _hope_ that this _might_ work or just spend the ~$75 to _long-term_ _solve_ der problem? .
"Well, 10 months later, my truck is doing the same thing. In November, all I did was run Seafoam through the lines and all worked well. Now, the truck idles rough again, and Service Engine Light shows Code 302, cylinder 2 misfire. I paid to have the injector system cleaned at Precision Tune today, but all is still the same.
I replaced all the plugs last night, and #2 was pretty carboned up but not fully bad. I would like to rule out Intake Manifold leaks or Vacuum leaks. Would either of these cause the noted issues???
Thanks,
Dave" 
from
http://www.idofishing.com/forum/sho...part/1/anyone-change-a-suburban-fuel-injector
"Moral - replace everything, or it will come back and bite you in the butt."
http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?19715-freeing-a-stuck-fuel-pump




 :laugh: 
from
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&...en&q=soaking+an+electric+fuel+pump+in+seafoam .

Build _smart_ bro  .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

buggyman said:


> Soooo, Mino  , is this gonna be ~_another_ week & a 1/2 of soaking in the _hope_ that this _might_ work or just spend the ~$75 to _long-term_ _solve_ der problem? .
> "Well, 10 months later, my truck is doing the same thing. In November, all I did was run Seafoam through the lines and all worked well. Now, the truck idles rough again, and Service Engine Light shows Code 302, cylinder 2 misfire. I paid to have the injector system cleaned at Precision Tune today, but all is still the same.
> I replaced all the plugs last night, and #2 was pretty carboned up but not fully bad. I would like to rule out Intake Manifold leaks or Vacuum leaks. Would either of these cause the noted issues???
> Thanks,
> ...





You are absolutely right buggy!!
I'm going to order one this Friday!!




Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> You are absolutely right buggy!!
> I'm going to order one this Friday!!
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Mino  ,
Anything else is like building a show car with bald tires with the cords showing:facepalm::laugh: .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

:laugh:


Minotaur said:


> Sent from my LT28at using Tapatalk 2


Tapatalk, Tapatalk, Tapatalk, Tapatalk, Tapatalk, Tapatalk, Tapatalk, Tapatalk........:laugh: 
Looks like https://www.google.com/search?q=ang..._5oAT16IHYBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1264&bih=834 :vampire: 
has finally met up with https://www.google.com/search?q=fah...D8v0oATX74Eg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1264&bih=834 Mino   .

:thumbup::beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

I've got yet another question for you Buggy!
The fuel pump is constantly on, since i have jumped the wires from the double relay to give the pump direct power.
However i went ahead and got some wire, spades and tapped into the ignition coil for the fuel pumps power?
Is this ok, i assume it is, since when i turn the key to the on position, the pump gets power, and of course removing the key, it turns off.

Anything that can possibly go bad doing this??

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

PS. She is doing fine, although i did see something interesting on exhaust valve piston #3 while i was adjusting them the other day.
I'll snap a pic and post it on the weekend. basically the spring was shiny at the top as if it has been scratching....


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I've got yet another question for you Buggy!
> The fuel pump is constantly on, since i have jumped the wires from the double relay to give the pump direct power.
> However i went ahead and got some wire, spades and tapped into the ignition coil for the fuel pumps power?
> Is this ok, i assume it is, since when i turn the key to the on position, the pump gets power, and of course removing the key, it turns off.
> ...


Dayo Mino  ,
Well, that's how my bro had his Facet wired up, key armed for a second or 2 hearing the floatbowl filling whir turn into a closed float slow click-click-click = start the car .
Now imagine getting rear-ended , unless/until you physically turn the key off the pump will continue running(the coil is still considered "hot" unless the power _to it_ has been cut).
On modern airbag cars there's more happening than just a bag blowing up in your face:
The fuel pump is disabled
The doors unlock
Sometimes even the windows automatically roll down
https://www.google.com/#q=modern+car+airbag+deployment+events
So if you're interested in making this automatic(when in a crash people tend not to react rationally ) please check out the PDF http://revolutionelectronics.com/12003-installation.pdf here http://revolutionelectronics.com/Fuel_Pump.html 
from
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=403852&highlight=electric+fuel+pump+wiring 
from
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418692 
from
https://www.google.com/#q=vw+ignition+based+electric+fuel+pump  .



Minotaur said:


> PS. She is doing fine, although i did see something interesting on exhaust valve piston #3 while i was adjusting them the other day.
> I'll snap a pic and post it on the weekend. basically the spring was shiny at the top as if it has been scratching....


I'll wait for the pic before hazarding to start guessing @ possible scenarios.

:thumbup::beer:


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## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

Minotaur said:


> I've got yet another question for you Buggy!
> The fuel pump is constantly on, since i have jumped the wires from the double relay to give the pump direct power.
> However i went ahead and got some wire, spades and tapped into the ignition coil for the fuel pumps power?
> Is this ok, i assume it is, since when i turn the key to the on position, the pump gets power, and of course removing the key, it turns off.
> ...


Dayo Mino  ,
I _think_(don't know for _sure_ ) I just realized something here while rereading this:
"Why the circuit to the regulator? Dontknow , Wink the system is only charged when the key is turned on to either accessory or running mode through the relay,turn the key all the way off &/or remove it from the ignition switch = no draw on the system if you accidently left the defroster switch on while walking away from the car(also gotta make sure that the accidently left on switch is powered from a "switched" fuse in the fuse box) = no fried rear window heating element or dead battery after a 6 martini lunch "
from
http://chircoestore.com/catalog/smf/index.php?topic=4844.0

Since you're running an alternator








(which ramp up power _output_ relatively quickly even @ slow cranking )
you _may_ be able to just key the fuel pump power off of the _output_ side of the alternator without installing a relay .

I don't have one in front of me to verify _any_ of this , but if my _theory_ is correct then the time taken to prime the carb would be combined with ramp up of the alternator, & if the alternator quits putting out:laugh: (engine stops)then the pump just stops .

If you could verify this for me & everyone else then you'd be "One day I'll be at buggyman status!" .

:beer:


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## Minotaur (Oct 22, 2011)

Tapped and helicoiled spark plug #3



























My dad helped me purchase these 









Installed 


















https://vimeo.com/132749958

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