# Diverter valve question - yes i'm a n00b but i'm not a complete idiot



## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

*Diverter valve question - yes i'm a n00b but i'm not a complete idiot. Now with recent pics.*

What are the three ports on the DV for? Mine only has one hooked up. 

It's not that i don't know my way around a socket wrench. I drove a Mk4 1.8T for 100k miles and did some of my own maintenance (including belts & water pump - twice) but i don't have the kind of time to tinker that i used to. My VW is my daily driver and i need it running all the time - handing it to someone else is just faster and i can afford it. My tinkering time goes to my land cruiser these days. Way easier to work on. Hell, you can take out the air box and sit on the wheel well. 

So after someone killed my Mk4 by ramming their subaru into it, I bought this tuned up MkV GTI DSG. 

I love it. I just want to understand it. 

A previous owner installed an intake and a BSH diverter valve. And the noisepipe is gone - the long pipe sure is anyway. 

Where the DV would have hooked up to the noise pipe, there's just nothing there. Vents to open air. 

Other side of the DV - what looks like a vacuum nipple - nothing connected there either. 

Good? Bad? Indifferent? What's the probable rationale behind this configuration?


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## azunderg (Apr 29, 2009)

DIY for mk5 diverter valve. 

:vampire:


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

azunderg said:


> DIY for mk5 diverter valve.
> 
> :vampire:


Yeah that really doesn't tell me anything about my BSH DV. 

Here's an old pic of my engine compartment from a couple years ago when it was offered for sale in phoenix: 










By the time i owned it, hoses on both right and left sides are gone.

I am unsure what BSH component the vaccum line is attached to, because that and the PCV blockoff are both gone too. 

Based on the BSH install PDF, I think i really should have a vacuum line there, no? 

http://www.bshspeedshop.com/bshstore/instructions/dv_for_fsi_true_seal.pdf


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

Get us a pic of what your engine bay looks like now. That may help us explain

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

^ What he said - your explanation doesn't really make sense. In the picture you posted - the BSH/Forge kit - there are two large ports. One hooks up to the pipe that runs from your intercooler to your intake manifold, where the noise pipe used to directly connect to. The other large port hooks up to the noise pipe and runs to the intake pipe (between turbo inlet and MAF). There is one small nipple on top of the large silver valve - a vacuum line connects to this (the kit ships with a boost tap that plugs in where the stock PCV goes).

That makes 3 "ports" total - one that connects the silver valve to the intake, a second that connects to the "cold side" intercooler pipe, and a third for vacuum that usually connects to the intake manifold.

The BSH valve will move air from the intake to the "cold side" pipe under vacuum - some intake air bypasses the turbo/intercooler during vacuum. When boost hits, the valve slams shut until you let off the throttle (immediate vacuum in the manifold) - which triggers the valve to open again, and excess boost ("surge" that BOV and DVs eliminate) is recirculated back into the intake tract near the turbo inlet.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Sorry for the old picture. The strut on my hood needs replacing, I can take a picture later today It's just a pain in the ass is all. 

i agree that it doesn't make any sense. 

I am pretty sure what we are looking at in the old picture is a BSH "v-twin" boost tap hooked up to the small nipple on the RH side of the DV. 

The boost tap is no longer present, and neither is the BSH PCV plate. It now has a bone stock PCV configuration. 

So I've stopped driving the car until I figure this out, because there is no way the DV is working properly. 

I apologize for not knowing wtf i am looking at. The bulk of my mechanical knowledge of cars comes from a '77 Fiat Spider and a '94 Land Cruiser, both of which are pretty stone age compared to the GTI. 

The outlet on the LH side of the valve is just flapping in the breeze too. And the long portion of the noise pipe is gone - the port on the intake for it has a rubber cap on it, with a big hose clamp holding it on. I guess i am too ignorant to know whether that is relevant. 

At this point i am trying to acquire another boost tap.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

(oh, and i'm aware that the coolant reservoir is a little low. My jug of G12 went to the wrecking yard with my Mk4, need to get some more.)


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

ericj said:


> (oh, and i'm aware that the coolant reservoir is a little low. My jug of G12 went to the wrecking yard with my Mk4, need to get some more.)


Looks to me like someone removed the noise pipe and is using the forge unit as a really expensive plug. And odds adr they judt plugged in an oem dv into the turbo housing where it comes stock 

From the looks of it someone did a half ass job of returning the car back to as stock as possible. 

Do u hear your DV releasing boost? 

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Looks to me like someone removed the noise pipe and is using the forge unit as a really expensive plug.
> 
> Do u hear your DV releasing boost?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


I don't think so, but this car makes different noises than my mk4 1.8t. 

Working on acquiring a boost tap so i can get this thing properly configured. If people would respond to their damn PMs . . . gonna have to pay retail . . .

Pretty sure the DV is a BSH unit, as pictured here:


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

ericj said:


> I don't think so, but this car makes different noises than my mk4 1.8t.
> 
> Working on acquiring a boost tap so i can get this thing properly configured. If people would respond to their damn PMs . . . gonna have to pay retail . . .
> 
> Pretty sure the DV is a BSH unit, as pictured here:


Problem is you need the noise pipe for that kit. 

If i were you id crawl under the car and check the turbo to see if the DV is on there. 



Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Problem is you need the noise pipe for that kit.
> 
> If i were you id crawl under the car and check the turbo to see if the DV is on there.
> 
> ...



There sure seems to be some amount of plumbing attached to the bottom half there but I guess I will have to jack it up and look.

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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

Heres a diy to locate it :http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3280862

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

If the DV block off plug is installed... I'm surprised the turbo has not blown up yet, as it is a ticking time bomb.

Scour the classifieds and junkyards for the noise pipe...

or at least at minimum get a boost tap kit (which doesn't cost that much) to supply a pressure/vac source to the DV, to at least make it into a BOV in the mean time, until you get the necessary parts to turn it back into a DV system


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

BsickPassat said:


> If the DV block off plug is installed... I'm surprised the turbo has not blown up yet, as it is a ticking time bomb.
> 
> Scour the classifieds and junkyards for the noise pipe...
> 
> or at least at minimum get a boost tap kit (which doesn't cost that much) to supply a pressure/vac source to the DV, to at least make it into a BOV in the mean time, until you get the necessary parts to turn it back into a DV system


Yeah i am trying to find method in this madness. Like to figure out why someone would do this. 

This car spent 3 months on a VW dealer lot as a used car last year. That would certainly explain the pcv "revamp" getting removed and replaced with a stock pcv configuration. And the removal of the boost tap. And i could see them putting the turbo back to stock as well. Even being lazy enough to leave the big hoses and DV in place. 

But that doesn't explain the missing noise pipe. 

I'm fairly convinced that this car initially got configured with the "trueseal intake + dv" kit from BSH along with the pcv plate. Which as we've established requires the noisepipe. 

Is it possible that this DV and it's associated giant hoses are just kinda hanging out in the front of the engine compartment, the turbo was put back to stock, and then whoever owned it last year did a noisepipe delete? 

This makes me wonder if the "bulletproof" BSH DV might be broken / worn out, as well.

This blurry picture: 











And this less blurry picture: 










Give me the impression that this the worst may be true, and this thing is just acting as a plug. 

I can say for sure that this car does not lack for power. It makes my MkIV look like a shrinking violet. But i am driving it like a little old lady when i drive it at all now. 

Drove my truck to work and back today but it is idling ****ty and either has an EGR problem or an idle control motor problem. And tomorrow the lumpy lot i bought this gti from wants to do the repair work they promised to do - so, I guess i drive it to work. as though it were a much lesser car. 

oh, and that DIY thread is worthless without pics.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

ericj said:


> Yeah i am trying to find method in this madness. Like to figure out why someone would do this.
> 
> This car spent 3 months on a VW dealer lot as a used car last year. That would certainly explain the pcv "revamp" getting removed and replaced with a stock pcv configuration. And the removal of the boost tap. And i could see them putting the turbo back to stock as well. Even being lazy enough to leave the big hoses and DV in place.
> 
> ...


YOu bought this with an AS-IS warranty or CPO?

sounds like the best thing to do is return the intake back to stock, including the DV system.

If you don't care about the noise maker, then, get the Passat 2.0T FSI pipe (which does not have the noise maker bung)


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

BsickPassat said:


> YOu bought this with an AS-IS warranty or CPO?
> 
> sounds like the best thing to do is return the intake back to stock, including the DV system.
> 
> If you don't care about the noise maker, then, get the Passat 2.0T FSI pipe (which does not have the noise maker bung)


Yeah, I bought this as-is. 

I gambled. I might have lost. I paid about $3k less than VW dealerships want for a bone stock 07 gti w/o DSG.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

I think i understand what is going on now. 

And i think the dealer did this when it was on their lot as a used car. 

The BSH kit that was installed in this car connects where the long noise-pipe attaches at the throttle body, or replaces the large throttle body tube with the Y fitting for the noisepipe - correct? I'm asking. I haven't seen enough diagrams of this engine right, and BSH's PDF is a lump of poop. 

With the BSH blowoff defeated, the long noisepipe is vestigial - nothing will ever pass through it. 

With the intake that has been installed, the 'speaker' that is usually connected to the noisepipe no longer exists. The instructions say to take it out. 

But the major intake plumbing is all still intact. 

I now agree with Bill - the factory DV has probably been reinstalled. and all this plumbing is just hanging around because the tech who defeated the blowoff upgrade was lazy. 

I HOPE that the blowoff is still functional, and i will contact BSH and ask them if they sell a service kit for it - new seals and a spring or something. 

I'll try and get the noise pipe back in, and I'm buying a boost tap kit off the classifieds, and then i can put it back the way it was 20k miles ago before garff VW futzed with it. 

Except i just found out that garff replaced the GIAC-ed ECM. So, nutz.


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't see any great problem here - you have a few decent options.

You can buy a stock noise pipe (or something like the EJ "noise amplification pipe" - a metal version of the same thing) and install it between the intake (yellow plug) and the silver Forge valve. Then you only need a boost tap to hook up to the Forge valve, and the performance mod will be good to go.

Or you can buy a noise pipe plug (or DIY one for a few dollars at Home Depot), install it in place of the Forge valve, and sell that valve in the classifieds and make a few bucks.

I'm not real sure what you were trying to capture with your second picture - I could be wrong, but it looks unrelated.  The stock DV is on the turbo - it can easily be seen by jacking the car up and crawling underneath - there is a wealth of tutorials and photos on this forum explaining where to find it. You need to check that - remove the torxs screws holding it in and make sure the BSH plug is not installed on the stock unit.

The stock electrical connector is plugged in to the stock DV, or else you would be getting a CEL. I believe one of the previous posters is right - you basically have an expensive and elaborate noise pipe plug setup in current form. It is also probably safe to assume that there is NO DV plug on your stock electrical DV right now - if there was, the car would be seeing pressure surges between shifts and throw code, as it would believe the stock DV had failed. If you have no CELs right now - your stock DV is almost certainly installed and functioning properly.

The path of least resistance is to remove the Forge valve, sell it, and plug the hole in your "cold side" pipe with a noise pipe delete plug. Everything else looks to be fine and you'll walk away with a few bucks.


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

ericj said:


> I HOPE that the blowoff is still functional, and i will contact BSH and ask them if they sell a service kit for it - new seals and a spring or something.


Forge will send you new o-rings and spring for their valve if you need it - all you have to do is contact them. It is very easy to check the Forge valve: unscrew the part with the vacuum nipple (while the car is off, of course). The "cap" will remove and you will find a simple spring and piston with o-rings. If everything looks good, the valve should work - it's a very simple and robust design.

Also, we should be clear with the language - the BSH/Forge unit is not a blow-off valve, it is a diverter valve. There is a difference, and the pictures/initial description might lead one to believe you/previous owner are/were trying to use the Forge unit as a BOV - it ALMOST looks like that was the setup was going for the way it is currently configured (it would never work - the part isn't designed to be a BOV).


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

xatnys360 said:


> Forge will send you new o-rings and spring for their valve if you need it - all you have to do is contact them. It is very easy to check the Forge valve: unscrew the part with the vacuum nipple (while the car is off, of course). The "cap" will remove and you will find a simple spring and piston with o-rings. If everything looks good, the valve should work - it's a very simple and robust design.
> 
> Also, we should be clear with the language - the BSH/Forge unit is not a blow-off valve, it is a diverter valve. There is a difference, and the pictures/initial description might lead one to believe you/previous owner are/were trying to use the Forge unit as a BOV - it ALMOST looks like that was the setup was going for the way it is currently configured (it would never work - the part isn't designed to be a BOV).


Well, it's just too horrifying to think that there is no dv or blowoff. So i HOPE it turns out that the DV configuration was returned to stock. I will get under there first thing saturday. 

I have a job that pays me a lot of money but is 45 minutes from home. This time of year week days are a blur where i get up and go to work, then come home in the dark. I don't have a garage so i don't really have somewhere i can work on cars at night unless i bother a friend. 

I just wonder if the aftermarket valve has gummed up from nonuse. I'll take it apart and make sure it's in good shape. 

And thanks for the clarification on terminology - i am a turbo dunce.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

*Help me reconstitute my recirculating DV setup?*

Right up front, apologies for being a n00b. 

I bought a MkV GTI that had been tuned up by a previous owner. Among other things, a BSH "true seal" intake, and a BSH kit including a Forge supersize diverter valve that recirculates through the noise pipe, hooked up to a port & elbow on the intake. 

At one point, it looked like this: 










Now, it looks like this: 










My presumption is that the Forge valve is not working, and the turbo has been returned to a mostly stock configuration. 

I believe that the DV relocation plumbing is now acting basically like a noisepipe delete kit. 

But i don't fully understand how this stuff hooks up to the turbo and the documentation from BSH is sketchy at best. 

I'm betting that with the rebuild kit from Forge i can get the valve working again. I have acquired another BSH boost tap. The noise pipe is incoming. 

What else is probably missing? 

I'm especially curious, what is the cylindrical metal object in the lower right of this picture of the BSH kit?


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## BlueDevil504 (Jan 19, 2012)

cylindrical metal object in the lower right of that picture should be DV plug for your OEM DV. Since you acquired another BSH boost tap, and the noise pipe is on it's way all you would need from there is that DV plug


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

You dont have a vac source for the dv. 

Why did u remove the stuff anyway?


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: Help me reconstitute my recirculating DV setup?*

I didn't remove stuff. Someone else did before I bought it.

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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

you didnt finish answering the questions we asked you in your other thread....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...n-yes-i-m-a-n00b-but-i-m-not-a-complete-idiot

you may already have a DV in place so there is really no reason to relocate it to the front right now......spend the money elsewhere on something that will show performance gains


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Is the forge dv releasing boost into atm? Or was a dv reinstalled into the oem location?
If all that is missing is the noise pipe then that is all you need to re-connect the dv to the intake port. That is assuming the vacuum source is still connected and operating the dv...


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: Help me reconstitute my recirculating DV setup?*



ROH ECHT said:


> Is the forge dv releasing boost into atm? Or was a dv reinstalled into the oem location?
> If all that is missing is the noise pipe then that is all you need to re-connect the dv to the intake port. That is assuming the vacuum source is still connected and operating the dv...


Last we knew in that thread he had no idea..... Im assuming he found out more info. But with the cobb job setup he has going on now...... Whooo knows

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

ericj said:


> Right up front, apologies for being a n00b.
> 
> I bought a MkV GTI that had been tuned up by a previous owner. Among other things, a BSH "true seal" intake, and a BSH kit including a Forge supersize diverter valve that recirculates through the noise pipe, hooked up to a port & elbow on the intake.
> 
> ...


In the lower right, is the DV blockoff. This gets inserted onto the stock DV, which goes into the turbo compressor housing. This causes the DV path to be blocked AND not cause a CEL.

Since you have no idea what you're doing, find a shop that does know what they are doing and let them fix it.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Last we knew in that thread he had no idea..... Im assuming he found out more info. But with the cobb job setup he has going on now...... Whooo knows
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


It's clear that the big forge DV is just acting as a big shiny plug in a noise pipe delete configuration right now. 

I'm ignorant but not stupid. 

I understand now that it doesn't make a lot of sense to use the forge DV in it's original configuration - most current kits with an external DV include a solenoid valve that controls the supply of boost/vacuum to the DV, so that it can be controlled by the (potentially chipped) ECU.

My only question right now is actually whether the recirculating DV configuration is desirable over an atmospheric blowoff configuration. I know that the Forge valve is not designed to act as a blowoff.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: Help me reconstitute my recirculating DV setup?*

Do not do an atmospheric blow off the car is set up to recirculate boost. 


Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Do not do an atmospheric blow off the car is set up to recirculate boost.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


Thanks. That was sort of my impression. 

I'm thinking right now that i should pull out the Forge DV and the hose it's standing on and install a proper noise pipe plug. I can probably walk into Integrated and buy one next week. 

Going forward I'd like to acquire the sort of solenoid valve currently being used to actuate piston DVs, the rest of the bits I'm missing, and put the Forge DV to good use. 

I know i could also just sell the Forge DV. But what fun would that be?


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## coldfire (Mar 11, 2011)

**** me side ways i just made my own thread about this....ugh...


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

OK, still thinking about this. 

Looking at Forge's kit, here's what they picture: 










The control valve shown looks a lot like a MkIV 1.8t N75 valve.

It seems that they disconnect the factory DV from the wiring harness and put the N75 in it's place. 

I'm not sure why they went with a MkIV style valve and a harness adapter when you can just get a 2.0T style wastegate valve, like this one: 

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_V--2.0T/Search/N75/ES2574871/

Any reason why this wouldn't work? 

fwiw i've sent Forge an email asking if i can purchase just the control valve and wire harness.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

*Bastard hybrid BSH/Forge recirculating DV build - the plan!*

I'm sure I've annoyed you all with my other thread, here: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5915023-Help-me-reconstitute-my-recirculating-DV-setup

where we came to two major conclusions. 

1: My Forge supersize DV is just acting as a very expensive plug right now

2: The BSH original configuration is sort of lame because it defeats the OEM DV without offering an ECU or chip friendly way of controlling boost pressure. 

I have acquired the missing noisepipe and hose bits to connect between the BSH intake and the Forge DV. I have acquired another boost tap. 

After exchanging some email today with Sean from Forge Motorsport, I have ordered the solenoid valve and wire harness from Forge's current atmospheric blowoff kit - this allows the ECU to control the Forge DV as though it were the factory DV. 

I also ordered a rebuild kit for the DV. It's only $10 so it's worth the reassurance that i will have a fully functional valve. 

It appears from the install instructions for Forge's blowoff kit that putting a blockoff on the factory DV is unnecessary. Which is good news for me because i don't have that part. 

What say ye? Am i missing anything?


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## BlueDevil504 (Jan 19, 2012)

Im pretty sure you have to plug the oem dv otherwise you will have a huge hole on the side of your turbo. the forge blow off kit replaces the oem dv in the oem location, install instructions do not pertain to what you are trying to do. Your putting together a dv relocation kit correct?


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

yeah, sitting here thinking about it i sort of came to that conclusion as well - that i need a blockoff of one sort or another. 

Yes, I am putting together a DV relocate using a Forge supersize DV that came attached to my car in an ornamental fashion. 

A previous owner installed a Forge "true seal" intake and DV relocate kit, but since then the DV portion of that kit has been defeated. And for some reason i still have the big shiny DV valve. Just sort of hanging out on a stalk of silicone hose connected to the charge pipe. 

The enhancement over the BSH DV+Intake kit my car was once fully configured with that i would like to make is the electronic control of the DV, the way Forge does it in their complete replacement DV product. 

What I'm actually puzzling over right now is whether i need a source of boost pressure other than the manifold tap. 

I'm under the impression that the DV in the Forge full-replacement kit is a normally-open configuration which uses pressure directly from the compressor, through the solenoid, to hold the piston down. 

When the solenoid is activated (when the ECU says it has enough boost), that pressure is cut off and the DV opens. 

Since i absolutely have boost, I am under the impression that the supersize DV is a normally-closed configuration. But I don't actually know. I guess i should fiddle with it a bit and find out. 

I suppose this means that i don't fully understand when the manifold tap is providing boost and when it is providing vacuum. 

I wearily admit that i am trying to glean information from this horrible thread from years past: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3336171-Forge-2.0t-Diverter-Valve-review-(long)

Anyway. I am considering getting this DV plug: 

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...tp&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-259&Category_Code=BOV

Which would allow me to completely remove the factory DV, and would give me something to carefully drill into and tap for some brass fittings if i need a source of straight boost.

Edit: It would appear that the Forge Supersize DV is normally-closed and operated by vacuum.


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## BlueDevil504 (Jan 19, 2012)

you could tap into the manifold tap boost line. Do you have a boost gauge?


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

BlueDevil504 said:


> you could tap into the manifold tap boost line. Do you have a boost gauge?


I do not have a boost gauge. I suppose i could rig something up - i have a BSH manifold boost/vacuum tap and some pressure gauges intended for co2, etc. 0-30 psi gauge should be able to show me something. 

Or, you know, I do have VCDS and a micro-can cable, so i can log boost. 

One of the suggestions i saw for improving the forge kit was a vacuum reservoir. It turns out that MkIV vacuum reservoirs are very cheap on ebay. Like $10 shipped. That, a tee, and a check valve, could guarantee that i have enough vacuum at the ready to pull open the big DV. 

I'm gonna come out and admit that I'm doing things the hard way. Sometimes i enjoy a technical challenge even if it comes with artificial constraints.


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

ericj said:


> A previous owner installed a Forge "true seal" intake and DV relocate kit, but since then the DV portion of that kit has been defeated.


Forge makes the Twintake and Wintake; BSH makes the True Seal.



ericj said:


> What I'm actually puzzling over right now is whether i need a source of boost pressure other than the manifold tap.


No, you will only need the one vacuum source for the Forge kit - just as you would with the BSH/Forge kit.



ericj said:


> When the solenoid is activated (when the ECU says it has enough boost), that pressure is cut off and the DV opens.


Do you have a firm understanding of what a DV does? This sentence leads me to believe you are mistaking a diverter valve with a wastegate... Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?



ericj said:


> Since i absolutely have boost, I am under the impression that the supersize DV is a normally-closed configuration. But I don't actually know. I guess i should fiddle with it a bit and find out.


No, incorrect. You actually double-posted this, and I did my best to explain all of this to you. The BSH/Forge kit open under vacuum - allowing the intake manifold to draw metered air through the noise pipe as well as the normal intake tract. It is thought that this might help the motor breath better and perhaps improve throttle response, but there is no data to back any of that up. It is only when there is positive pressure in the intake manifold (boost) that the piston in the "supersized" DV is forced closed; when you release the throttle and there is vacuum in the intake manifold, the supersized DV opens again and vents excess boost back into the pre-compressor intake tract.



ericj said:


> I suppose this means that i don't fully understand when the manifold tap is providing boost and when it is providing vacuum.


See above. When you are cruising off boost, there is a vacuum in the intake manifold; when you are on the throttle over ~2300RPM, boost begins to build resulting in positive pressure in the intake manifold. A boost gauge easily illustrates all of this. The manifold tap creates vacuum inside the mechanical valves to draw open or slam shut the piston that controls airflow.



ericj said:


> Edit: It would appear that the Forge Supersize DV is normally-closed and operated by vacuum.


Again, incorrect as explained above.


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

ericj said:


> One of the suggestions i saw for improving the forge kit was a vacuum reservoir. It turns out that MkIV vacuum reservoirs are very cheap on ebay. Like $10 shipped. That, a tee, and a check valve, could guarantee that i have enough vacuum at the ready to pull open the big DV.


This is completely unnecessary and bordering on the absurd. The supersize DV doesn't require some juped-up vacuum box to "generate enough vacuum" to "pull open the big DV". A regular tap is more than sufficient. I think you're _really_ out of your depth here...



ericj said:


> I'm gonna come out and admit that I'm doing things the hard way. Sometimes i enjoy a technical challenge even if it comes with artificial constraints.


You are that artificial constraint - you are inventing your own problems. We've combed over this whole project in extreme detail, and that you are now posting things like this is alarming. I suggest you go back and re-read one of your original threads I linked to in my previous post.


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## DunnyCTMKV (Nov 2, 2009)

Way too many problems for such a simple thing to do...

Buy the forge block off plate for your turbo.

Put the diverter valve on your intake side by putting it between your throttle body pipe and intake. Control the diverter valve with vacuum off your intake manifold (simple taps are sold), and run a second line to the solenoid / actuator that controls the vacuum (N-75 valve?, sorry it's been a while). Clamp everything tight and you're good to go.

Luck!


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

xatnys360 said:


> Forge makes the Twintake and Wintake; BSH makes the True Seal.


pointing out a brainfart is a little petty, no? I got that right any number of times in this thread. 




xatnys360 said:


> No, you will only need the one vacuum source for the Forge kit - just as you would with the BSH/Forge kit.


OK, but the current full-replacement kit that Forge currently sells, with a wastegate valve that is wired in in place of the factory DV, supplies boost to the control port on the DV when the wastegate is not active. That's why there are two nipples on that DV. Your guess is as good as mine as to why they did that. I wonder if they used a weak spring, and thus require positive pressure to maintain a good seal when the DV should be closed. 



xatnys360 said:


> Do you have a firm understanding of what a DV does? This sentence leads me to believe you are mistaking a diverter valve with a wastegate... Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?


The diverter valve releases compressed air to recirculate through the intake when the desired level of boost has been acheived or boost is no longer required, no? Correct me if i am wrong. 

Forge's current full-replacement kit uses a solenoid valve to control the supply of vacuum to their DV. I'm under the impression that this sort of valve is often referred to as a wastegate or N75. Correct me if I'm wrong. 



xatnys360 said:


> No, incorrect. You actually double-posted this, and I did my best to explain all of this to you. The BSH/Forge kit open under vacuum - allowing the intake manifold to draw metered air through the noise pipe as well as the normal intake tract. It is thought that this might help the motor breath better and perhaps improve throttle response, but there is no data to back any of that up. It is only when there is positive pressure in the intake manifold (boost) that the piston in the "supersized" DV is forced closed; when you release the throttle and there is vacuum in the intake manifold, the supersized DV opens again and vents excess boost back into the pre-compressor intake tract.


*Shrug* the spring alone in my forge DV seems to be holding the piston firmly in the closed position. I don't see how I'm wrong here. 



xatnys360 said:


> See above. When you are cruising off boost, there is a vacuum in the intake manifold; when you are on the throttle over ~2300RPM, boost begins to build resulting in positive pressure in the intake manifold. A boost gauge easily illustrates all of this. The manifold tap creates vacuum inside the mechanical valves to draw open or slam shut the piston that controls airflow.


I think i already admitted that I'm not 100% clear on the mechanics of when the manifold tap supplies boost and when it supplies vacuum. 




xatnys360 said:


> Again, incorrect as explained above.


Which part? it is in fact a vacuum operated valve.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

xatnys360 said:


> This is completely unnecessary and bordering on the absurd. The supersize DV doesn't require some juped-up vacuum box to "generate enough vacuum" to "pull open the big DV". A regular tap is more than sufficient. I think you're _really_ out of your depth here...


I admit to being a n00b. This is something i am learning about as i go. I don't claim to be any kind of super-tech. 

Threads critical of Forge's implementation suggested a vacuum reservoir to improve the response time of the DV. I was just mentally exploring it as an option. 



xatnys360 said:


> You are that artificial constraint - you are inventing your own problems. We've combed over this whole project in extreme detail, and that you are now posting things like this is alarming. I suggest you go back and re-read one of your original threads I linked to in my previous post.


I started a new thread because the premise of the other one was obsolete. 

The artificial constraint i refer to is the fact that it would be a lot cheaper for me to rebuild and sell my existing DV and then buy a kit from Forge. But i wouldn't learn anything that way, and i wouldn't have the satisfaction of having something that works because i put it together properly, and put it together the way i decided to do it.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

DunnyCTMKV said:


> Way too many problems for such a simple thing to do...
> 
> Buy the forge block off plate for your turbo.
> 
> ...


Yeah that's basically it, except i bought the blockoff plate from ATP. 

The DV is attached to the charge pipe where the noise pipe usually connects, and the noisepipe is connected to the outlet of the DV and to an inlet on the BSH intake. 

I did the math and buying the solenoid + wiring harness from Forge isn't more expensive than buying some other N75 and working out my own wiring harness. Sean at Forge made the point that the reason for the wiring harness is that the solenoid should be positioned so as to make the vacuum lines as short as possible. Since this is a relocate, I will probably be lengthening the harness they send me.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

Just bc the DV isnt hooked up to the ECU doesn't mean its going to operate poorly. i have mine hooked up to the boost/vac source as do many other people running awe's dv, forge's oversized, eurojets...ect. there is absolutely no need for the dv to be electronically controlled

you needed a OEM noise pipe and some silicone pipe and a DV plug and spent well under 100$.

all you needed was this: http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-172

and a piece of silicone hose: http://bwperformance.com/products/straight-couplers/10-silicone-2-straight-hose (maybe 2 pieces it says 2 ft but mine that was sent was 3 ft and more then enough) heck i even have 2ft blue silicone i would've sent you for cheap.....keep your threads up to date we are here to help....

and you would have this relocated DV set up essentially: (only difference would be your intake tap is up on the top of the intake)


















instead of the 007 dv youd have your big forge dv:


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Just bc the DV isnt hooked up to the ECU doesn't mean its going to operate poorly. i have mine hooked up to the boost/vac source as do many other people runnign awe's dv, forge's oversized, eurojets...ect.
> 
> you just spent 250$ on a forge unit when you more then likely could have make yours a relocated set up for much cheaper!! bc you have 90% of the pieces.....
> 
> ...


I didn't spend $250. I spent $20 on a used boost tap, $10 on a rebuild kit for my DV, $40 on a solenoid valve and wire harness, and $30 on a dv blockoff plate. And $40 on a stock noisepipe that came with all the hoses i need. 

I could have spent $50 less and i admit that. 

I might try it both ways. I regret slightly not having bought the little blockoff cup because it would make it easier for me to try it both ways. 

If i had the blockoff cup and some vacuum line handy i could set it up right now. But since i don't know the history of the DV i would like to rebuild the DV first, so i was going to order that kit from Forge anyway. 

Treat me like a child (some of you for sure have no problem doing that) and answer me this: If i run a chipped ECU which increases the boost psi before activating the DV, will that work the same with or without the solenoid valve controling the DV?


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: Bastard hybrid BSH/Forge recirculating DV build - the plan!*



ericj said:


> I didn't spend $250. I spent $20 on a used boost tap, $10 on a rebuild kit for my DV, $40 on a solenoid valve and wire harness, and $30 on a dv blockoff plate. And $40 on a stock noisepipe that came with all the hoses i need.
> 
> I could have spent $50 less and i admit that.
> 
> ...


My post was edited well before you posted. after i re-read your first post. You've made 3 threads about the same issue its not treating you like a child its you being a noob and us trying to learn you. Your fix/next step could have all been made in your first thread 

If you increase boost with a tune it wont change anything. A DV doesn't work on the boost it works on when the throttle body is open/closed.

If the throttle body is open:

Electronic DV: the ecu will tell the dv the throttle body is open and it will keep the dv closed/sealed

If its a mechanical dv (forge, awe, ect): the boost pressure created by the throttle body being open will push the dv closed and force it to stay closed 

If the throttle body is closed:
Electronic dv: the ecu will hold the dv open

Mechanical dv: the vac pressure caused by the closed throttle body will hold the dv open

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> My post was edited well before you posted. after i re-read your first post. You've made 3 threads about the same issue its not treating you like a child its you being a noob and us trying to learn you. Your fix/next step could have all been made in your first thread


I get a lot of attitude from people in all three threads. The level of machismo on vwvortex is amazing compared to some other automotive-related fora. 

I get more static in an hour on vwvortex than i have in the entire time I've been on ih8mud's 80 series technical forum. 

Sorry about the three threads. 

The question i asked in the first thread was settled and that thread kinda died. I didn't see the point in trying to revive it to ask a different question. 

In the first thread, BSickPassat mentioned the BSH dv blockoff plug but at the time i didn't know wtf that was, and it was clear from the fact that my car wasn't throwing a lot of codes that right now it's running with a normally operating DV on the turbo. As confirmed later in that thread by xatnys360.

The 2nd thread asked a different question. Which admittedly BlueDevil504 answered pretty quickly. 

I admit i haven't been under the car to see if there is already a Forge or other aftermarket DV bolted to the turbo, but i really doubt there is considering how lazily a lot of this was put back to semi-stock. 

There are marks on the supersize DV from a pair of offset pliers or a vise or pipe wrench, and i can't unscrew it with my bare hands (which are mighty) - maybe it's just jammed and the previous owner chose the path of least resistance. 

The last post in that thread is essentially the same question i'm asking in this thread. Nobody was interested in responding. 




Bill6211789 said:


> If you increase boost with a tune it wont change anything. A DV doesn't work on the boost it works on when the throttle body is open/closed.


That is something i wasn't clear on. What prevents over-boost? 



Bill6211789 said:


> If the throttle body is open:
> 
> Electronic DV: the ecu will tell the dv the throttle body is open and it will keep the dv closed/sealed
> 
> ...


I had figured out (by yesterday) that this is how the manifold tap delivers both boost and vacuum. I was just thoroughly unclear on how it related to boost regulation, or if it does.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: Bastard hybrid BSH/Forge recirculating DV build - the plan!*



ericj said:


> I get a lot of attitude from people in all three threads. The level of machismo on vwvortex is amazing compared to some other automotive-related fora.
> 
> I get more static in an hour on vwvortex than i have in the entire time I've been on ih8mud's 80 series technical forum.
> 
> ...


All three threads pertain to you fixing/setting up your dv relocation. You didnt need to start somthing new whne all 3 have to do with the same initial question/setup 

The wastegate controls boost, overboost, and the amount of boost your car makes. A boost controller controls when the wastegate opens and closes in our cars its the n75 valve. A dv sol purpose is to release the boost pressure when the throttle body closes it has nothing to do with the amount of boost made 



Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> All three threads pertain to you fixing/setting up your dv relocation. You didnt need to start somthing new whne all 3 have to do with the same initial question/setup


I see the first one as "What the heck is this?", second one as "how do i put this back together?", and third one as "this is how i've decided to put it back together, is it going to work?". 

Sorry for the clutter. And I'm sorry if I'm lumping the tech forum in with the general car forums in terms of the rate of smack-talk and real-keeping-it. But i did have people telling me to go pay someone else to do it because obviously I'm incompetent. Which was uncalled-for. 



Bill6211789 said:


> The wastegate controls boost, overboost, and the amount of boost your car makes. A boost controller controls when the wastegate opens and closes in our cars its the n75 valve. A dv sol purpose is to release the boost pressure when the throttle body closes it has nothing to do with the amount of boost made
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


Thank you for clearing this up.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: Bastard hybrid BSH/Forge recirculating DV build - the plan!*



ericj said:


> I see the first one as "What the heck is this?", second one as "how do i put this back together?", and third one as "this is how i've decided to put it back together, is it going to work?".
> 
> Sorry for the clutter. And I'm sorry if I'm lumping the tech forum in with the general car forums in terms of the rate of smack-talk and real-keeping-it. But i did have people telling me to go pay someone else to do it because obviously I'm incompetent. Which was uncalled-for.
> 
> ...


Np im here to help people, but if you have one thing on your car keep it all together. I understand how u did separate it now. But bc its all on your car and its all the same stuff keep it together. Mainly for the people trying to help they can look back and not need look through three threads to figure out the whole story. 

And you will run into some people with there noses in the air. Everyone was a newb and many forget they at one time learned all they know from someone up above them in knowledge. You just need to ignore them and use the people that want to help 

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Np im here to help people, but if you have one thing on your car keep it all together. I understand how u did separate it now. But bc its all on your car and its all the same stuff keep it together. Mainly for the people trying to help they can look back and not need look through three threads to figure out the whole story.
> 
> And you will run into some people with there noses in the air. Everyone was a newb and many forget they at one time learned all they know from someone up above them in knowledge. You just need to ignore them and use the people that want to help
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


I'll try to keep my threads aligned better in the future. And i do appreciate all the help. 

I'm not useless turning a wrench on my old truck and i also rebuild mechanical watches. I did the belts and water pump on my 1.8t twice. I did the head gasket and valve covers and reassembled the entire anti-smog on my old fiat spider. But I'm still basically a n00b at this level of technology. It's just a matter of collecting enough information. 

fwiw i just called Forge to tell them i only want the rebuild kit for the DV and ATP to tell them i want the blockoff cup rather than the full DV delete plate.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

*Re: Bastard hybrid BSH/Forge recirculating DV build - the plan!*



ericj said:


> I'll try to keep my threads aligned better in the future. And i do appreciate all the help.
> 
> I'm not useless turning a wrench on my old truck and i also rebuild mechanical watches. I did the belts and water pump on my 1.8t twice. I did the head gasket and valve covers and reassembled the entire anti-smog on my old fiat spider. But I'm still basically a n00b at this level of technology. It's just a matter of collecting enough information.
> 
> fwiw i just called Forge to tell them i only want the rebuild kit for the DV and ATP to tell them i want the blockoff cup rather than the full DV delete plate.


Looking back the only other thing i see youll need os a boost tap. I have an extra one if you want it shoot me a PM. 

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Looking back the only other thing i see youll need os a boost tap. I have an extra one if you want it shoot me a PM.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


I acquired a BSH boost tap from another vortexer for about $20 shipped. The old one in plain aluminum with plastic nipples. I stopped by the local hose vendor and got some brass barbs that fit it (and a plug) for about $2 total.


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

Bill6211789 did a wonderful job summing up why you are catching flak - cross-posting and multiple threads are obnoxious and are usually the mark of folks who are too dense to learn. I did my best in your last threads to precisely lay out how this all works and what you ought to do to fix it, and it's disheartening to see this - a third thread on the same topic - where you're just now sorting out what a DV even does (again, good job Bill on clearing that up for him).

You do seem to be making an earnest effort, but I still get the sense you're just glancing over the information we're spending time to lay out - and now whining when some of us practice a little tough love. Cowboy up.

Get your L-type torx keys, crawl under the car, and remove the 3 bolts that retain the stock DV. Remove the DV and verify there is a plug (if it doesn't come out with the stock DV, stick your finger in the hole and feel for a block-off plug).

Follow Bill's advice (less $) or my advice in your previous thread (more $) for getting the Forge valve hooked up. You will know whether or not it is working when you drive the car around - pop your foot off the throttle during WOT and you will be able to hear the report of the valve recirculating air.

It would be a good idea to figure out how to get that Forge valve open to inspect the guts - if the o-rings don't need to be replaced now, they will eventually. It shouldn't be that difficult to unscrew - it does sound like you're up against a problem (maybe the last guy cross-threaded it?) which would further warrant alarm over the existing setup. 

Or scrap the whole thing, order a Rev D DV, plug the "cold side" charge pipe, and go that route...

None of this is new info - we covered all of this in your 2nd thread and you still haven't taken the most basic steps to satisfy any of these unknowns on the existing setup. This problem needs less posting and more hands-on investigation. The car could be put back to the most popular configuration (rev D) in 20-30 minutes and $60 in parts.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

haven't been under car because of bad weather and no garage and no codes being thrown to warrant it. 

I'll probably have access to a garage next weekend when I'll be dealing with this. 

I am in general unfamiliar with what a 2.0T FSI should sound like. I also have noisy exhaust and intake. This car sounds nothing like my mk4 1.8t. 

I met a kid who works on the bottom rung of labor at the local VW/Audi/Porsch dealer who says he recognizes the car as one that used to belong to a VW repair tech who works there - traded it in on a daily driver for his wife. I believe him because it makes the service history make sense. So I'm inclined to believe that the previous owner was not a moron. 

If you read the thread it'll be clear which cheap route i have finally ended up with. 

I'm sorry for annoying you. I learned my lesson.


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## [email protected] (Dec 12, 2001)

At the OP's request, I merged his three threads together so it'll be easier to keep track of.

-Tim


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Well with the help of an 18" pipe wrench and a 14" pipe wrench i got the thing open. 

The first row of threads on both halves is pretty bad. On the male side i basically need to file off about 2" of thread and on the female side i have some careful carving to do in order to get chunks of aluminum out of the groove in a couple places. 

Interesting note - the piston i took out has a round top but the piston Forge sent me has a flat top. Any idea if that is normal? It looks like it'll work, it was just unexpected.


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## xatnys360 (Apr 4, 2012)

That should be OK - I'm nearly positive that mine is flat top as well.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

The current plan is to put both halves on a lathe and just trim off the damaged threads. Should still have enough thread to stay closed, else i guess i can apply purple thread lock.

Sent from my mobile thinger using the tapawhatsit


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