# Valve Cleaning estimate...$$$$, does this sound right?



## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Just got an estimate for a valve cleaing on a 2012 tt RS. $700 in p arts (manifold gasket, 5 spark plugs and o-rings for the injectors and cleaner) plus 6 hours labor= about $1300.
I got a BMW valve cleaning where they took the vavles out and hand cleaned them for $600 total on 6 cylinders. This is 5 cylinders and twice as much,
Does this sound right because it seems awfully high to me.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

If anything it should be a warrantee issue! WTH?


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Since it is something I am requesting and not the result of a light or code it wont be warranty. I am tryinmg to fiuguree out why i have misfires in 3 cylinders and they are getting worse but not enough to cause a light yet.


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

*Chemical cleaning instead of manual cleaning*

BG cleaning can do a good job on valves. Might have to do it twice if the buildup is heavy. Even doing it twice is a lot cheaper than your quote:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...pe-Videos-Before-and-After-BG-Intake-Cleaning


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Since they cant really do a scope of the valves they are going to pull the cover and take a look at them and see if they are bad or not. It it turns out they are bad then I am going to push for audi to cover it because the deposits could be causing the misfires and rreduced power problem. Not sure how they are going to look but it would certainly explain several things if they did have some buildup


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

Quisp said:


> Since they cant really do a scope of the valves ...


Really? Huh. I'll take that as a challenge ...

(in a few weeks, got other projects on my plate for the now.)


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## crackkills (Mar 10, 2007)

How many miles?


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

32vSC said:


> Really? Huh. I'll take that as a challenge ...
> 
> (in a few weeks, got other projects on my plate for the now.)


 
Wasnt meant as a challenge, I was talking aboujt the dealership. They scoped it but could not see the valves .

Car has around 13000. With direct injection deposits dont take as long as they normally would, especially when driving involves a lot of short trips. I have misfires in 3 cylinders that are gettin progressively worse and the performance is down. Not gettin a lot of diagnostic help from Audi since there are no codes (and as we all know if there isnt a code then there cant be anything wrong with the car) so I am trying to work this one out and right now the valves seem like a possiblity.
They are pulling the cover tomorrow or today maybe and taking a look then going to let me know if it is worth getting them done.
Apparently there is a $415 injector repair kit that includes new fuel injector O rings,retaining clips and seals which accounts for most of the $700 worth of parts. That doesnt sound right for o rings clips and seals.


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

Are you running the stock ECU or a flash?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Quisp said:


> They are pulling the cover tomorrow or today maybe and taking a look then going to let me know if it is worth getting them done.
> Apparently there is a $415 injector repair kit that includes new fuel injector O rings,retaining clips and seals which accounts for most of the $700 worth of parts. That doesnt sound right for o rings clips and seals.


What cover are they pulling and why would they need to service the injectors? All they should need to do is pull the intake manifold. Guess I need to take a look at my car and see if the injector seats are part of the IM and need to be removed.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Here is a engine drawing.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

If you have a VAG COM, you can just log the misfires, plot it out in Excel and bring it to the dealer. For such a new car with low miles and under warranty, $2K is a huge gamble in the hope of them figuring it out IMHO.

It may be worth running BG Injector Cleaner or Techron to clean out possible gunk in the injectors. And if that does not work and the plugs are good, then it could be injectors on the way out. If I were you, I would consider new injectors if I were in there R&Ring them.

My wife's GTI 2.0T FSI has almost 80K on it and running an APR flash without issues. So I doubt you could have dirtied the valves in just 13K miles.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

did you put in 502 spec oil?


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

My lasat car had direct injection and the valves were bad at 11000 miles. Diect injection can do that. 


Ran the vag com and they said it is normal to have misfires(and there has to be so many before it will trip a code or light and they wont do anything until then)











Got the pics of the valves and they look ok so just going to get a fuel cleaning done. They hook up the injector lines to something and it runs cleaner through them. That should clean out the injectors if they are messed.
When I get it back Monday I am going to do some more logs and see where it isnow. 
Entertaining any theroies that woould cause misfires, reduced power and power shifting to higher rpm aalong with assorted noises iincluding high pitched ringing and rattle just ebfore turbos come on.
Here are the valves:














































This is frustrating.


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

Wow the valves look good. Are you running the stock ECU?

Also have you tried different gas/ gas stations? Perhaps your local gas station has skunky gas and you got some? In a motor like ours s#$t gas can cause problems.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

I agree that the valves look good. Over at AudiWorld, some Q5 owner's are getting their valves cleaned with a new tool and the engine doesn't have to be removed. The old way involved removing the engine and then some type of crushed walnut shell blasting, but the new way involves high pressure water! Not sure of the cost since most owner's are getting it done under warranty. This is some type of mobile operation from AoA and the guys there call it the AoA Roadshow. 
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2817781&page=12

Maybe yours is not the bad intake deposit that most people refer to and like you experienced on the Bimmer. I know the 2.0T's are not supposed to be prone to intake valve build-up. Not sure about the 2.5T's. Or maybe not enough mileage on most yet.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

And if you have not done this yet, move coil packs from cyls 1 and 4 to the misfiring cylinders and see if the misfires follow them. Bad or weak coilpacks have been an issue on VAG cars forever and its an easy and relatively inexpensive fix.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Thaty is another frustrating thing about this. The misfires move. At first it was just 1 in one cylinder that moved. Now itis always three cylinders but not always teh same three. That is making it even harder to figure out. I am trying to figure out what woud change from cykinder to cylinder.
Lookeed t some old logs and you can see the performance is down by the time stamp and how long it takes to reach certain rpm and boost levels.
They are going to be done with teh car monday. All that was done is a fuell system cleaning in the two weeks hey had it. No diagnosing the problem because there is not problem that gives a light or code. I have to go through the audi training manual and suggest things to check .
.
I am curous to see what the logs show when i get it back. I have had the stasis tune off it while tryingto work this out but I think i am going to get it bck on since nobody is trying to fix the car.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Copying from my PM so that others can read:

(If the injector service doesn't help)
I would strongly recommend going ahead and putting in a new set of coil packs and plugs. You can do the job yourself and parts cost is reasonable if you shop around. Though you don't have a dead coil, you could have some that are marginal. Plugs and coils can contribute directly to misfire issues and they have been a common concern with VAG engines.

If you have already replaced these parts, sorry for the redundant suggestion.


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## crackkills (Mar 10, 2007)

I am sorry if I missed it but are these misfires underload or at idle. If at idle cold start idles or warm idle? 

If you don't own a VAG cable for your Audi you might as well have no gas either.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

If the misfires are moving, like hightechrdn suggested, replace the plugs and coils to see if that resolves the issue. Its a common VAG weakness.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks for all the tips. The misfires are both idle and under full load doing logs when fully warmed up.. 
Have the vag cable thats how i got the logs.
Will try the coils when i get the car back and probably have the plugs done while they have it.
Should i go with the factory plugs or go one step colder as ihave read in other threads?


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

OK, since I am getting some good advice on this let me ask about the timing. I was looking at a timing log i did and noticed that for timing retardation I have quite a range of numbers for the various cylinders, 0 to -5.3 and it is weird how they change. Is it normal to have such a range and all negative numbers for timing retardation? would this be related to misfires or cause them?


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

Quisp said:


> Wasnt meant as a challenge, I was talking aboujt the dealership. They scoped it but could not see the valves .


I was talking about the dealership. To be more-clear: I'll take it as a challenge that I can get my borescope into the motor and find the valves.




Quisp said:


> My lasat car had direct injection and the valves were bad at 11000 miles. Diect injection can do that.


That's strange. If every Audi trashed valves during the warranty period they'd be out of business.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Had valve deposits on last two BMWs, both under 14000 miles when it happened and neither time was the cleaning covered under warranty even though they said it needed to be done to restore performance.
If the cars are having problems with timing chain noise, would that mess with the timing of the car?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

no it wouldnt because the chain isn't skipping any teeth, if it did well you know very easily


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## Stevelev (Mar 4, 2004)

A few thoughts on the carbon buildup matter:

1) I have a bud who is an indy mechanic who does all my non-warranty work ... he recently did a 1 series valve cleaning and suggested they're much easier to do than an Audi. 

2) I was told that a BG cleaning wont do the job and only getting in there to clean using "elbow grease" (ie: walnut blasting or scraping) will do the trick. 

3) Although I'm not familiar with the TTRS, we were able to scope my TTS and it had early signs of buildup. For the record, I do not use gas with ethanol and drive the car relatively hard. I will be doing a cleaning this spring with approx. 25k miles on the odometer (cost expected to be in the $650. range).

3) I had my RS4 cleaned under warranty due to throwing codes and the return to stock power was VERY noticeable ! Assuming a 10+% loss of power due to buildup, its unlikely most people will not notice a loss of performance on a less powerful car ...


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