# Spongy Brakes



## bpfoley (Nov 30, 2000)

I have had PBR Deluxe pads and some Mahle GEOMET rotors on my Jetta for about a year now. Brake fluid was flushed around the same time as well. 
Since then, I have bedded the pads several times and always have the same results- spongy brake pedal with lots of travel until results. 
*Sometimes the pedal feel is really good, shorter travel and good braking performance. I can try to emulate this sometimes by riding the ebrake halfway for a little bit at speed, next brake application is nice and firm.
The rotors look good, no scoring- etc. I have cleaned the slide pins on the front rotors twice and re-lubbed with the green permatex pin lube. I even replaced the rubber bushings that the slide pins sit in.
The system was bled twice- everything seems to be in order, clutch works fine. Why is performance all over the board?
Do PBR Deluxe's have crap cold bite? Because they seem to fade easily too with heat. So are they just a junk pad? Could the rotors cause a problem? I always figured a hunk of metal was a hunk of metal.
Please help! I miss having predictable braking performance. BTW- Tires do not matter either (I have had in the past year; General Tire Exclaim UHP, Blizzak WS-50's and now Continental DWS).


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (bpfoley)*

How much brake fluid are you using when you bleed the brakes each time and are you losing any brake fluid?
There are at least three possiblities:
#1 When you bleed the brakes you are using enough fluid to get rid of the air and contamination in the fluid. It takes a minimum of of 1.5-2.0 quarts of freash fluid to do a complete bleed. Simpley steeping on the brakes with the valve open once or twice is not enough to get the job done.
#2 You have a leak.
#3 The brake master cylinder is defective and in need of replacement. Autohausaz.com and europartsdirect.com both sell the Meyle new master brake cylinder for about $45, and offer free shipping on orders of $50.


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## bpfoley (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (germancarnut51)*

Unfortunately I am not sure about how much fluid was used- I had a shop perform this. 
As for a leak: are there common areas I can look for? Would it be enough to notice the level in the MC reservoir falling?


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (bpfoley)*

Hey Brendan, how's it been?
You would notice the level in the MC reservoir decreasing if you had a leak. Sounds like air bubbles in the lines to me. MK4s are pain to bleed, and if a shop not extremely familiar with VWs did the bleed, they probably did the calipers in the wrong order and didn't cycle the ABS pump to flush out any air that may be residing there. Find a friend with a motive one-man bleeder and a VAG-COM and try re-bleeding them yourself.


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## aladro (Apr 21, 2007)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (4ceFed4)*

make sure that the ABS pump is cycled when performing the bleed.


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## bpfoley (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (aladro)*

updates: no leaks, the fluid level is at max. I went around and re-lubed all slider pins. The only thing I notice is that at idle, if I continually stab the brakes I can see the vacuum drop a little- idle remains normal. My theory is that this is using up the vacuum available to assist the brake and refill the booster. My idle is always fairly consistent and boost is smooth and predictable.
I suspect that a leak in the vacuum lines to the brake booster would cause a stiffer pedal as well with less vacuum assist (am I right?)
My next step is to get into a VW specialist shop to perform a bleed- not a pepboys.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (bpfoley)*

Make sure the rear brake shoes or pads are good, and the self-adjusting parking brake assemblies are working correctly. If the parking brakes or the self adjusting mechanisms on the rear brakes are not working, then you will have a spongy brake, even in the front.
If the rear brakes are good, then the master brake cylinder is probably worn out. Buy a new one, if you install a used one, there isn't any guarentee that it will be any better than the one you remove. Europartsdirect.com and autohausaz.com have new Meyle 22mm master MKIII master cylinders for about $45, with free shipping on orders over $50.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (germancarnut51)*

MK4 master cylinders are about 3x that price, and the OP never complained about the brake pedal sinking to the floor, so I wouldn't suspect that the MC is faulty just yet. A proper bleed on the car should be the fix.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (4ceFed4)*

europartsdirect.com shows Meyle master cylinder without ESP for $82, and with ESP for $112. Free Shipping either way.
OP complains of intermittent soft pedal with lots of travel. That could be either air in the airs, OR a worn out master cylinder. Since OP claims that he bled the brakes twice, and has good stops sometimes (probably on quick, short stabs at the brake pedal), the next possibility is the master cylinder.
I went through this recently on my 95 Golf GL, and a 96 Jetta Trek that a friend bought 3rd quater last year. On my Golf, a 2 quart flush and bleed cured the problem. On my friend's Jetta, after a 2 quart flush and bleed still had the problem. Replaced the master cylinder with a new Meyle, and bled for less than 1 quart, and the brake pedal is now high and tight.
Flushing and bleeding is always the first procedure, but if that doesn't fix the problem when the calipers (and/or drums), pads or shoes, and rotors or drums are all good and working, THEN, the master cylinder is the problem.


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## MightyDSM (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (germancarnut51)*

Don't mean to hijjack the thread, but how do you cycle the ABS pump?


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## aladro (Apr 21, 2007)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (MightyDSM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MightyDSM* »_Don't mean to hijjack the thread, but how do you cycle the ABS pump?

No high jacking as this has been suggested.
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-c....html


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## adaMKIII (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (bpfoley)*

My car just developed the same problem that you're describing. (96' MKIII Jetta)
I had a mechanic replace my front pads and rear shoes/hardware kit.
PBR pads installed on the front.
When I brought the car into the shop, the brake pedal feel was normal.
When I picked up the car I have a very spongy feel and long travel before any reaction from the brakes.
It feels like there is not enough brake fluid in the lines or there are air bubbles. However, since they did not open the brake hydraulic system how would this happen?
Back to the original post - are PBR Deluxe pads just crap?
The car seems to stop just fine, but I have to slam on the pedal and it goes pretty much the whole way to the floor.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (adaMKIII)*

This is what happens when you don't replace the brake fluid regularly, and simply push the caliper pistons back in when replacing brake pads WITHOUT REPLACING AND BLEEDING THE BRAKE FLUID BEFORE RETRACTING THE PISTONS.
Pushing back/retracting the pistons forces old contaminated brake fluid, and gunk up into the the brake system from beinbg at rest inside of the caliper cylinders. It also forces the caliper seals up, over, and into gunk that has been accumulating in the caliper cylinders. THIS DAMAGES THE SEALS IN THE FRONT CALIPERS, REAR CALIPERS OR WHEEL CYLINDERS, AND BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER. In addition, a shop that simply pushes back the caliper pistons and wheel cylinder pistons may not know that on VWs with rear disc brakes (if your car has rear disc brakes), that simply squeezing them to retract the pistons (like you can on a car with front disc brakes will damage the parking brake mechanism, and the parkign brake mechanism will not work correctly any more, which results in SPONGY BRAKES).
Do you know if your car has rear disc brakes? Did you watch the brakes getting replaced, did you tell the shop to simply retract the pistons, and not to do the full job and bleed/replace the brake fluid? Did you see the mechanics at the shop use a clamp to retract the pistons on the rear brakes? 
If you didn't see the mechanics do wrong, you can try going back to the shop to confront the shop about how/what they did to service your car, BUT YOU MAY BE SCREWED.
What you need to know is if any permanent damage was done to your brake system, and how many/much in parts you are going to have to replace.
If you have rear disc brakes, and the special tool was not used to press and rotate the pistons into the calipers, the odds are that the rear brake calipers are permanently damaged, and in need of replacement.
You can do a extensive brake fluid replacement (using a minimum of 1.5-2.0 qts of fresh brake fluid), and bleed to see if the gunk can be purged from the brake system, and whether the brakes are going to work normally (if the master cylinder was not damaged). If the brakes are not 100% working correctly after the rear calipers (if you have rear disc brakes) are checked for correct functioning (parking brake operation, self adjusting clearance), then the master cylinder is damaged and in need of replacement.
If any brake parts are replaced, the full bleed cycle must be done with 1.5-2.0 qts of brake fluid BEFORE the brakes can be evaluated for proper functioning.
A soft brake pedal is not the fault of the brake pads. A soft brake pedal is the result of a contaminated brake fluid system or failed hydraulic brake components.


_Modified by germancarnut51 at 9:33 AM 4-22-2010_


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## adaMKIII (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (germancarnut51)*

germancarnut51 - Very informative! Thank you.
My brake fluid has been in the car as long as I've owned it. So it looks like I should go bleed my brake lines.


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## bpfoley (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Spongy Brakes (adaMKIII)*

I ran the ABS VCDS pump cycle (did not actually open the bleeders though) and this improved the feel a bit. But the pedal still felt a bit soft.
So I ended up buying Pagid front pads from Germanautoparts.com and the pedal feel after about 300miles is great (I just sprayed brake cleaner on the rotors & nothing else during the pad swap). I am going to ditch the PBR's in the rear as well and go with either OEM Jurid or Pagids. The brake dust really is not that bad at all- especially if you use something like ArmorAll Wheel Protectant or EagleOne KeepWheel Clean on the wheels after a wash.
I really think that although the braking force was indeed there with the PBR Deluxe; the pedal feel was horrible and not confidence inducing. Cold bite was terrible as well but did seem to get better as the commute went on (aka warming the pads up). 
After some research I found that a lot of (not all) ceramic pads have low cold bite and are known to eat rotors. For me it seems that OEM/OEM-type-compund pads just have a better pedal feel and work well for my driving style (back and forth to daycare and work- no track days for me anymore). I can live with washing the wheels.
Another theory I have with not enough brake knowledge to back it up is that perhaps the rotors I bought just don't pair well with the PBR's.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*brakes*

This is all good stuff. I'm going thru the same thing right now. I'm not going to repeat my story, it's already posted here, BUT I have a Q;
HOW DO I GO ABOUT EVALUATING THE REAR BRAKES(PARKING ETC)?

The rears look "textbook", so I haven't really touched them. I assumed the problem was up front.
Sorry for the resurection,
TomJV


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

tomjv said:


> This is all good stuff. I'm going thru the same thing right now. I'm not going to repeat my story, it's already posted here, BUT I have a Q;
> HOW DO I GO ABOUT EVALUATING THE REAR BRAKES(PARKING ETC)?
> 
> The rears look "textbook", so I haven't really touched them. I assumed the problem was up front.
> ...




Lift the rear of the car up onto jackstands.

With the parking brake engaged, crawl under the rear of the car and look at the parking brake levers on the rear calipers and make sure that they are pulled.

Disengage the parking brake, and check the calipers to make sure that the parking brake levers have released and are in the resting position.

Spin each of the rear tires by hand and confirm that the wheels spin freely. You may hear the rotors or drums scraping, but there should not be any drag from the brakes.

Pull the parking brake handle up exactly three clicks. Spin each rear wheel, you should be able to feel some drag from the parking brakes.

Pull the parking brake handle up two more clicks (five clicks total). Try to spin each wheel. They should each be totally locked up. If you can spin either rear wheel, you need to cycle the parking brake handle up and down at least 50 times to see if the parking brake will adjust properly. And then retest.

If the parking brakes do not work as indicated, then you have a defective cable or cables, or a defective rear caliper or calipers (if the pads or shoes are not worn out).


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