# TT RS on-track at Atlanta Motorsports Park



## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

Executive Summary-
The APR Stage 2+ RSC is an incredible drive. I managed to hold off a GT-R in the latter parts of the event (where before he would lap me once in a session). No Porsches were actually harmed, although I won't speak to their self-esteem.

W/O further ado-

Technical:
Installed Carbotech RP-2 (f) and XP-8 (r) brake pads. We did this after discussions with HQ and one of the dealers. The limiting factor was running the car on the OEM tires from Toyo (more about them later). We also had my Audi dealer purge the brake fluid and replace it with Motul RBF-600. Another wise choice.

As most of you know, my car is the R&D mule used by APR to develop the Stage 2+RSC exhaust package. It dynos at their place at 430 HP, and around 464 lbs-ft TQ. At the wheels, that was 390 HP/432 TQ. I did not find a single car on-track that day that could out-pull me. Nuff said. However, this was my first track day since the revolution, so I had to learn to drive a whole new beasTT. The car is capable of making LONG runs in 3rd gear here at Atlanta Motorsports Park (AMP), and there were a small set of surprises. From T6 to T9, and then again from T10 to T12, I did overboost on three occasions (total). The combination of LONG pulls, or of quick changes from speed run to full throttle and heavily-loaded condition likely triggered these, and I did it on demand once to prove my point. I am certain the APR guys did their job just damn fine, and I discovered the data gap using my foot on my track on this day. I quickly scanned the car, reset the mode, and went back out. Once I knew this was the case, I (as noted above) purposely incurred the fault, gave everyone a point-by between T13 and T15, held my line and shut off the engine (no locking the steering boys). I already had a go/no go point (pit-in entry), but the fault cleared as planned and off we went.

By the end of the sessions, I was pulling 5th gear runs coming up past T16 and across the S/F line. Braking from that speed required I start between 4 and 3 coming in to the Track In point, and I got comfortable (but not complacent). Did I mention that absolute power corrupts absolutely? Well, it does make me smile a lot!

The course-









T1-T4:
Very technical section. You need to come up from T1 and lean into T2 adjacent to, but not next to, the T/I marker. If you get right to the marker, you are going out too far, and the you wind up going through T2 too shallow. Staying to the left of the pit-out lane lets you go through T2-T3 by waiting for the apex markers to intersect on your approach from T1. Turn in fast. Go straight for a short bit (SHORT!) between T2-T3, then feather the brakes and make a clean entry into T3. T2 and T3 both are OK with a run up onto the rumble strips as they are progressive. Come out of T3 centered up on the roadbed, then turn into the A (apex) marker for T4- The Karousel. Many RWD guys wanted to double apex this (and it was so-marked), but I found I could run the radius right down on the rumble strips. Use the throttler to control the tail, and VOILA!

T5-T12
Out of the Karousel, T5 to T8 was a nice combination. I got it down early- my instructor said I could run it in my sleep. However, the T9-T12 set is tricky. You need to come straight down from T8 to the T/I point for T9, and NOT flow the track out to the right. Doing so unbalanced the car- whereas running straight down allowed for a fast entry into T10 that allowed momentum to just carry you around in an arc and line you up for T11. Brake lightly during a straight entry into T11, then run across the bump at the apex and up the hill towards T12. It was ballet. T12 is blind, and requires some faith in the layout. 

T13-T16:
Hit the T/I point and then go out in the middle of the lane until you can see downhill to T13. Apex going down and left, then let the car drift out to the T/O point and get lined up for the sweeper out to T15. Coming down to T14 is also a good place to upshift the car. Carry your speed into the left-side apex, let physics carry you out to the T/I point past T15, upshift again (now in 5th) and pick up the apex and a lineup marker for T16. You are accelerating constantly going up the hill to T16 and bending it (like Beckett) back to the right in a long hard arc. Drift out to the left, bring it back to the right on the front straight and then line it up straight for a braking zone entry right against the rumble strips for T1. At T1 we found I could carry it a bit deeper and faster by not turning into the apex so deeply (maybe 3' off the cone) and use Quattro to begin accelerating before I actually got to the the cone! Out of T1, get right but look for cars coming up on the right from pit out.

Repeat as necessary.

Lessons Learned-
* T2-T4 require connecting: they are not throw-aways. Get it right and it is heaven. Get it wrong and you are working the car WAY too hard. It was my nemesis for about 4 sessions. Once I mastered it, it was a joy.
* T1 and T6 make the most of Quattro IMO. T16 is a close second.
* Going uphill from T15 to T16 foot-down in 5th gear takes nerves. The Toyos (remember my earlier comment) suck at this, especially as the heat cycle up. I had to listen very carefully and feel the seat of my pants even more carefully, but we did it right.
* If you've autocrossed a lot, you might have some bad habits. Mine was, of all things, my hands. I wasn't suffering from happy hands, but I was shifting my hands on a few turns (T1 and T6 for instance). That made my turns look like pie segments instead of smooth arcs. It was one of the first fixes by my instructor, and BOY did that make a HUGE difference.
* EVEN if you have 200+ laps on a course, having an uninvolved partner in the right seat is the best investment you can make.
* DO get good pads, and invest some time talking to the manufacturer. The Carbotech guys nailed it as far as I can tell. I never feared for losing brakes. I did pay attention (again) to how the tires responded to threshold braking. R-Comps, soon!
* Consistent entries make for a happy car!
* There is this pesky MK1 named Snoopy.....

Note to self- I did triple-sessions (hence the miles) Friday. 1st as an A-class (Advanced) student and then leading Audi North Atlanta customers, plus leading Taste of the Track (first-time get your feet wet lead-follow sessions coupled with classroom instructor time). Saturday AM I felt as if I had gone 13 rounds with Mike Tyson. I pushed though it Saturday, and the soreness vanished. But I was VERY tired Sunday.

FUN!

I hope this is helpful or inspiring!
Track Photos (use the Slide Show feature!)


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

InTTruder said:


> ... and there were a small set of surprises. From T6 to T9, and then again from T10 to T12, I did overboost on three occasions (total). The combination of LONG pulls, or of quick changes from speed run to full throttle and heavily-loaded condition likely triggered these, and I did it on demand once to prove my point. I am certain the APR guys did their job just damn fine, and I discovered the data gap using my foot on my track on this day. I quickly scanned the car, reset the mode, and went back out. Once I knew this was the case, I (as noted above) purposely incurred the fault, gave everyone a point-by between T13 and T15, held my line and shut off the engine (no locking the steering boys). I already had a go/no go point (pit-in entry), but the fault cleared as planned and off we went.


I am getting the stage 2, DP in a few weeks, then back to the track. I am not sure of what you are describing with "overboost" and the issues (or not) that this condition entails. Is this something that the driver has to learn to "manage" through gear selection/RPM or throttle input?

Very nice facility. Looks like a great place to drive. Jealous on numerous levels.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

LongviewTx said:


> I am getting the stage 2, DP in a few weeks, then back to the track. I am not sure of what you are describing with "overboost" and the issues (or not) that this condition entails. Is this something that the driver has to learn to "manage" through gear selection/RPM or throttle input?
> 
> Very nice facility. Looks like a great place to drive. Jealous on numerous levels.


Bruce-
It may be a vehicle management issue. Long hard runs at 6000+ rpm (which I used to avoid upsetting the car by upshifting and downshifting) seem to be one of the contributing factors. SO I did go ahead, short shift (sort of like doing T10B then under the bridge at Road Atlanta), and then downshift again at entry into the next turn. BUT, in one case, I think it was a case of squeezing (sic) the throttle quickly while going up a sharp hill at lower RPM. The T11 to T12 section is quite steep, and I suspect I squeezed the lemon too hard. SO yes, I believe it is manageable.

That I could repeat it once I learned all the conditions/contributors makes me think I found the one spot in the software curve that APR had not. That's OK- it's a complex machine and this is normal IME.

Atlanta Motorsports Park is indeed a beautiful and fun place!

Thanks!:thumbup:


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)




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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

*Tires and alignment*

I have the OEM Toyo tires (R01 variant), and previous experience on AMP before the mods identified that they are a decent street tire but not a 3-day track tire. I had work done by GTE (more about them below) after my first long track weekend (only 2d), and we aligned it based on the assumptions of OEM tires, track brakes, and no RSB for this run. 

Here are the specs on alignment-
Front:
Camber -1.5*
Caster at 7.9L and 7.3R
Toe set to 0.00

Rear:
Camber -1.5*

So, on Friday I pumped it up to 42F and 36R. Why you ask? I had autocrossed for years, and devoutly brought along chalk to mark the front tire scrub in three places along the perimeter of the front tires. It always worked! So, did the same, made some slight adjustments after the first run, and my hot pressures look like this:
LF 45 RF 48
LR 42 RR 42

Not bad you say. Sufficient margin to the 50 cold max specified for the tire. Off we go.

No problems, although at the end of the sessions on Friday I was getting that greasy feeling from a tired tire. This was especially true making T15-T16 going up the hill nearly flat out in 4th (I was slower on Day 1). SO I checked the pressures, balanced them hot (46RF/42LF/and 42R), and set out. I was getting down to the edge of the front tread blocks just fine (as indicated by the chalk markings- although one of my buds thought I had CORD showing at staging!!). And remember, I'm tripled up on Friday with run group A, then my ANA (Audi North Atlanta)customer and Taste of the Track runs.

Saturday 1st run, good fun, but even then (I was faster already) the 1st session left me a bit spooked by the tires. GTE (Gran Turismo East- they do just about all serious off-track alignment for enthusiasts like me in the Atlanta area) is there with there monster late 90s Mustang. We start looking things over, check my hot pressures, run our hands over the tread, and he makes a stone-tablet pronouncement:

LOWER THE PRESSURES! 

Ach!

So, we DROPPED them (as opposed to let some air out) to the following:
32LF 34RF
32LR 32RR

HOLY SHIITE!

I thought "this is going to be exciting until I wind up in the gravel". SO off I went, working my way back up to speed. And even my instructor, ("I've done all I can do, you're ready to rodeo on the big bull by yourself") says as he walks away- "WTH did you do? That was a LOT smoother and felt better in the transitions!" But he was right. And, when I got out and checked my scrub, it was the same, or maybe even a hair's width closer to the edge of the tread blocks, but NOT over onto the sidewall.

The GTE guys just grinned.

The rest of the Saturday and then Sunday sessions I set the car cold per the above. And made only slight adjustments based on variations showing up as a slight increase of decrease in the hot pressure. My hot pressures were:
36LF 38RF
34LR 34RR
I adjusted to maintain that and it seemed just fine.

GTE asserts my 'show up" pressures ought to be 32F/32R, and adjust from there based on hot pressures. Inflate the front tire getting the most heat in 2 psig increments until the hot pressure stabilizes. For exceptionally fast tracks, they recommended I start the fronts at 34 psig.

End result- no greasiness at the end of my hottest session (the "kept the GT-R off my ass" session), and no evident heat imbalances across the tread. I didn't have an IR monitor, and MAY invest in one of those little jewels, but for seat-of-the-pants tire tuning this worked pretty well. I had confidence to go through T2-T3 and line up for T4 pretty fast, and T15-T16 no longer seemed so dicey.

So- another autocross carryover I had to discard (or at least the 'high pressures' part!). Smoother runs, less evident heat and mushiness, and a much more comfortable feeling overall.

Now that I have this baseline, I'll install the RSB and see what difference that makes. GTE and I will adjust camber settings accordingly, since I am inserting rear roll stiffness using the bar, vice compensating for it with camber.

YMMV- talk with your alignment guys if they track, or talk to the local 'racers'. Ask what they do with their tires. 

And pay attention when your tires sing. Mine quit after I lowered the pressures dramatically. And I could steer the car just fine using my right foot.


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

That's a great track day report.



InTTruder said:


> We start looking things over, check my hot pressures, run our hands over the tread, and he makes a stone-tablet pronouncement:
> 
> LOWER THE PRESSURES!
> 
> ...


More evidence that the stock pressure spec of 35f/32r was done for a reason that has nothing to do with the best performance:

http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5700663-Tire-Pressures-TTS-vs.-TT-RS


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

32vSC said:


> That's a great track day report.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bow to the master!


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

InTTruder said:


> I bow to the master!


No don't go all obsequious on me. :sly:

Back to the other thread.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

32vSC said:


> No don't go all obsequious on me. :sly:
> 
> Back to the other thread.


At 62, it's hard to be obsequious. But I am appreciative of your thoughtful explanations.

Back on your heads!


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

At the Golden Gate Chapter event this weekend at Sears Point - we had 4 TTRS's on track. 3 bone stock and one with r-comps and everything else stock. That car and two of the others were driven by instructors and one D level student coming from a Cayman S. One of the instructors - who drives about 25 days a year said he has no problem with the stock tires and brakes. He was turning lap times up there with R8's and heavily modified cars. That impressed me.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

I'll defer to the instructor, but I'll note I am driving a cruise missile compared to the OEM TT RS. The changes in power and torque made it clear I was learning a new vehicle. All told now I have about 1000 miles on AMP. I have never driven S/P, so I can't compare.


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

InTTruder said:


> I'll defer to the instructor, but I'll note I am driving a cruise missile compared to the OEM TT RS. The changes in power and torque made it clear I was learning a new vehicle. All told now I have about 1000 miles on AMP. I have never driven S/P, so I can't compare.


I understand the differences. We like to modify cars so we do that - but what we think are weaknesses in the cars might well be weaknesses in our driving ability. These three i'm speaking about can flat out drive any car fast, stock or modified.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

Wisdom there Joe. THX:thumbup:


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I understand the differences. We like to modify cars so we do that - but what we think are weaknesses in the cars might well be weaknesses in our driving ability. These three i'm speaking about can flat out drive any car fast, stock or modified.


I agree with this with regards to the RS too. The car is immensely capable totally stock and a couple of the mods I've looked into with regards to the suspension I think will do little to change the actual grip available but I think will make me more confident with regards to what the car is doing. If you trust it and learn to drive thru it the car doesn't need much at all.


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ... might well be weaknesses in our driving ability. These three i'm speaking about can flat out drive any car fast, stock or modified.


Truer words have seldom been written. A long, long time ago, someone told me that spending money on mods was less effective in reducing lap times than spending money adjusting the nut behind the wheel.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

*Fifth gear*

They actually did an episode on this on Fifth Gear. I don't recall the car but the premise was a non professional driver drives car stock, then with exhaust, then with ecu tune, then with new tires, then with Jason Plato instructing in car. All runs were done with only the one mod, i.e. all other mods were removed so as to test each mod independently. Well, I'm sure you can all guess which lap time was the fastest.


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

InTTruder said:


> Wisdom there Joe. THX:thumbup:


As an instructor - i've seen it all. Last weekend my A student had a nice Mk1 TT - tons of mods and he couldn't stop talking about them - until we got on track. He couldn't find the line the first couple sessions if it was glued to his windshield. We worked all weekend and at the end of day two - I turned to him and asked what his name was and where he had hidden my student he was doing so well 

Reminds me of my first event. I showed up in my Project TT with all the mods etc. My instructor was in a bone stock MKI TT with street tires and nothing more than fluid and upgraded pads. He did things in that car that I couldn't believe at the time............

You guys know me and my penchant for mods - hell it's part of the fun of owning the car. The track changes everything though and as I spend more time out there I realize at the levels we drive - the more I learn about driving the less the mods make a difference.

Every time I hit the track I work on smoothness. Smooth inputs on the wheel, the brake etc. The harder I try the slower I go...........:beer:


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

Smooth is fast.......

All good advice guys. I think my Instructor must've read your minds, as it took me Friday and Saturday AM to go solo. The nut behind the wheel indeed!


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

At T11- doing about 80 right here-


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## Craac (Mar 26, 2012)

Very informative thread. I too had my RS on the track last weekend (Motor Sports Ranch Cresson, TX) and it was a blast. This was my 2nd and 3rd track days so I am in no way a expert but I am learning a lot, moving up in run group, and completely hooked. A few notes:

I tested a few tire pressure settings and after starting with 35f/35r (cold), I tried 35f/40r at the suggestion of my instructor. This turned out to be effective in getting the rear of the car to rotate more and I stuck with this setting the rest of the weekend. I also tried 30f/35r and the car had no grip.

Back to rotation, first mod on the car is RSB no question. No power mods for me just yet.

Tires: I will have to post a picture of the carnage but my stock toyos are not doing well. I will need to replace them before my next outing. I am dreaming of a set of 18" enkei pf01's and some more aggressive rubber. That or RE-11's on the stockers like Bruce.

Brakes: all stock here. Sufficient braking power, insufficient braking feel. I now have a vibration coming from the front brakes after three track days and 5k street miles. It is parked for now and going in to the dealer soon but I suspect the pads are shot. I will likely be upgrading the pads, lines, and fluid before the next outing.

Would love your thoughts on anything I said there. Like I said, I am new and learning but totally hooked.


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

The remaining pad thickness prior to a days "event" should be at least the thickness of the backing plate of the pad.

I replaced the OEM brake lines with the Goodridge SS braided lines following Jeremy's lead. Also flushed and refilled with Motul RBF 660. This made the brakes feel very "repeatable" over the duration of track sessions (15 to 25 minutes, depending).

I replaced OEM pads (front) with the Pagid Blue RS 4-2 pads at the suggestion of DessertTT-RS and others who had previous track experience.

I learned last event that I was street braking and not establsihing the "threshold" brake technique. I got it down now. Brakes thus take a lot LESS abuse that way (run cooler) because you stay off the brake pedal much more. No instructor previously had pointed this out to me.


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

LongviewTx said:


> I learned last event that I was street braking and not establsihing the "threshold" brake technique. I got it down now. Brakes thus take a lot LESS abuse that way (run cooler) because you stay off the brake pedal much more. No instructor previously had pointed this out to me.


All A Students at our ACGG events go through three exercises on their first day. Slalom, threshold braking and lane toss. The threshold braking is great. We work them back from planting the brake pedal to establish the feel of ABS going off. Then work them back to stopping the car completely using the ABS as a threshold.


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

InTTruder said:


> At T11- doing about 80 right here-


Nice Shot! Would love to hit the east coast tracks with you guys someday!


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

Craac said:


> ... A few notes:
> ...
> Would love your thoughts on anything I said there.


Ok. You asked, here are my thoughts (and, yes, folks, I've put on my asbestos undies):



> Brakes: all stock here. Sufficient braking power, insufficient braking feel. I now have a vibration coming from the front brakes after three track days and 5k street miles.


Here is the first clue:



LongviewTx said:


> I learned last event that I was street braking and not establsihing the "threshold" brake technique... Brakes thus take a lot LESS abuse that way (run cooler) because you stay off the brake pedal much more.


This is the number one reason why otherwise quite adequate brakes get 'squishy' on the track. As LongviewTx recounts, braking hard to slow down fast is less abusive than 'tip-toeing' your way into a corner. When you are on the brakes they can't cool. You're not carrying a wedding cake in the trunk. Get on the brakes smoothly, but hard, then come off of them quickly but smoothly. You'll end up crawling through the corner, but that's fine. Next time around brake a little bit later or carry little bit more speed into the corner. 

In [to the corner] slow. Out fast.
In fast. Out dead.

Next, _use_ your cool down lap... to *cool down*. Attempt to not use the brakes at all. 

As you exit the track and make your way to your 'pit', garage, or patch of dirt, never keep your foot on the brake. If you're in a line, do not sit in line with your foot on the brake. Again, use the brakes as little as possible. This last point is important. When you come off the track, even after a nice easy cool down lap, your brakes will still be hot enough to cook meat on. If you sit with your foot on the brake pedal you'll, basically, 'melt' the pads a bit and transfer a pad-shaped bit of pad material to exactly one spot on your discs. The result will be a high-spot on the discs and ...

... wait for it ...

... a bad vibration when braking (due to the high spot.)




> Tires: I will have to post a picture of the carnage but my stock toyos are not doing well. I will need to replace them before my next outing.


You are running the wrong pressures.



> ... starting with 35f/35r (cold),
> ... 35f/40r at the suggestion of my instructor.
> ... I also tried 30f/35r and the car had no grip.


All of the pressures you ran are for a car with a heavy *rear* weight bias except 35/35. And that assumes 50/50 weight distribution. The TT is nose heavy; it needs a bit of stagger in the front (assuming same tire sizes front to rear.)


As you raise pressure away from some 'optimal pressure' you balloon the tires in the center. As you lower pressure away from some 'optimal pressure' the weight of the car concentrates on the sidewalls and the center bulges up from the pavement. Either of these conditions results in less than optimal grip. It is more complicated than that since pressure increases with temperature and temperature of the tire depends upon how fast you're rotating it and how much you're sliding it sideways across the pavement. 

That's why they call them 'warm up' laps. And that's why we have to set a cold-cold pressure and then experiment by measuring temperatures or using chalk and by using the butt-o-meter.

Unless your alignment is totally fubar'd, here's my bet:

You're chunking the center of the rear tires because you've got way too much pressure in the rear. 

At 30f you're running too little pressure, so you're eating up the sidewalls. At 35f you're eating the centers of the fronts a bit.

Audi's lawyers need the RS to understeer (Fact. See 911 lawsuits from the early Turbo days.)

How to do that? Increase front tire pressure. Reduce contact patch, lessen front grip from optimal. Its somewhat safer to reduce grip by ballooning the tire - by increasing pressure - than by bulging the center up. (Fact. See Firestone lawsuits.)

You need the car to 'rotate' which means not understeer. How did your instructor tell you to do that? Increase rear pressure. Reduce grip. 

Result? Wasted tires after a couple of track days.

Raising or lowering pressure too far from 'optimal' results in less grip. This is one of the reasons you are supposed to adjust pressures in one or two psi increments and only front or rears, never both at the same time.

Start with what other folks have found to work. If it doesn't work for you, then go up or down by two PSI on _either_ the front or the rear, but not both and see if it's better. If it does not get better then go back the other way one axle at a time.

But, frankly, at three track days you should be far more worried about being smooth, hitting your line, learning to brake and being able to be consistent lap-to-lap and run-to-run and getting just a little bit faster each day, than about subtle adjustments to compensate for any understeer built into the TT. 

Most accidents - incidences of not keeping the sticky side down and the shiny side up - at the track, in my experience, happen in a) the Green group because the - usually male - driver's are trying too hard and b) the white group (or whatever group in which folks have decided that they need to heavily mod their car to go faster.)

Good luck. Have fun. Be safe. Keep the shiny side up.


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## Craac (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks for the critique, youve presented a lot of information for me to digest. I will try the 32f 32r psi next time out. As far as the brakes and tires, you guys are correct. The centers of my tires both front and rear are chunking. I am building confidence in threshold braking and becoming more smooth but i will be the first to point out that i have a ways to go. I did try hard not to use my brakes on cool down laps and parked the car in the pits in gear with no parking brake. She is going to the dealer on tuesday so we will see what they say. I highly doubt they will replace anything under warranty so depending on what the dealer says i will likely take it to my trusted indi to upgrade the pads, lines and fluid.


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

Great thread and tyre PSI is so personal that it is not worth making an authoritive statement as there are so many variables...one not mentioned thus far is heat from engine & braking can warm the wheels thus tyres to also incresse hot PSI.

I used to run 40f/38r both hot. I now run 38f/30r due to mods to brakes & suspension. My cold PSI is now OEM thus 32f/26r...these are for a UK car.

I find those PSI works well for me and tyre wear is even. Keep in mind though that my car has soft springs (221lbs) fronts and firm springs (500lbs) rears and I still have MagneRide...!


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

*Tires and Tyres-*

On the Toyo T1 Sport:
Just wrote a review for Tire Rack. Competent street tire, but on a technical track it gave up way earlier than I would have expected. I was able to wring it out pretty well, controlling heat cycles as muich as possible. Great initial turn in, but low on ultimate traction and resistance to greasing.

I had an off Saturday at AMP - i was running slower than I had been but it was obvious the whole session that the tires were on their last legs. At T1, as I started braking I knew we would not make it, even though we were braking a bit earlier and slower than previously. I let the course camber take me down toward the apex, then took it off at 11 o'clock or so straight into the trap. Slowed way down before making a turnaround and getting back on-track but off the line. Took it into pits for an inspection (no damage, just some pride left at T1), and then inspected the tires. WHOA!

RF tire was down to 3/32 or less, severely cupped (in spite of serious alignment work at GTE, -1.5* camber, and 32 psig cold), and the outer 3/4" of tread block was non-existent. LF was not worn on the outer blocks so hard, but was also at 4/32" - 3/32". Rears are both OK- the car rotates well under trail braking and I dodn't go looking for more rear roll stiffnes. Rear pressures were 31 psig cold.

I conclude these are a VG street tire, but 2500 miles of track, even with good alignment and pressures, left them greasy and over-reliant on driver judgment (not a good choice with this nut behind the wheel!). I sensed their impending weakness, and took it a lap too far!

Good for a laugh and lesson-learned. Forewarned is forearmed for the rest of you.


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## mageus (Sep 1, 2004)

32vSC, great comments, and looks like no one took offense at the constructive criticism.

InTTruder, you're probably getting bombarded by 'helpful' information from all directions, but I recommend listening to 32vSC. Most important is, forget about most of the technobabble and just concentrate on your braking points, driving line, and keeping it smooth for now.

Except for one thing. Tire pressure.

Measure pressures before and after each session. Doesn't have to be exact or obsessive. Use the chalk method or even a temperature meter (IR is fine for beginners). One of us can expound if you don't understand this.
The Toyo's are actually fine for learning on, and only really drop in performance half-way through their life. They should not be falling apart like you describe if the pressures were correct. I run mine front high 30s, rear low-mid 30s HOT. This means the cold pressures at the beginning of the day may be


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## mageus (Sep 1, 2004)

Forgot to mention, since you'll be in the market for tires soon. RS-3's are the bomb.
My advice: get a set of track wheels and get some reasonably priced long mileage tires for the street.

Tires are really the one upgrade that will make you go faster. Like others have said, nothing else will help a low-intermediate driver aside from learning and experience, especially in this car. Mods are just for fun (which has its place also)


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

mageus said:


> Forgot to mention, since you'll be in the market for tires soon. RS-3's are the bomb.
> My advice: get a set of track wheels and get some reasonably priced long mileage tires for the street.
> 
> Tires are really the one upgrade that will make you go faster. Like others have said, nothing else will help a low-intermediate driver aside from learning and experience, especially in this car. Mods are just for fun (which has its place also)


I only just saw that the R-S3 is load-rated now for this car (96Y). Good news!

Driving in advanced, the key with this car is decent tires and consistent driver behavior. I can buy one, and work on the other!

I have logged tires before and after. I settled at 30-31 psig F and 32 psig R as cold, and have seen 38F and 36R as a result after laps. That setup was good a few days ago. but rapidly declined as it appeared these are worn to the nub (or 3/32" anyway).


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

how do they compare to this?

i can't believe this would have been due to over-pressure "cupping" the center of the tyre (i've taken to the euro spelling - and i keep my luggage in the boot!).

either way, for track applications the toyo is still not on-par with to the rest of the cars capabilities - IMHO.


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## Craac (Mar 26, 2012)

My toyos are looking similar Bruce, not quite as bad but similar chunking in the middle. How are those RE-11's treating you?


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

Very well. Much better stability in corners with a very "uniform" feel. Three track-days under their belt (one in rain). Just fine on the interstate going to and fro too.


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## Craac (Mar 26, 2012)

Bruce, you have PM


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

LongviewTx said:


> how do they compare to this?
> 
> i can't believe this would have been due to over-pressure "cupping" the center of the tyre (i've taken to the euro spelling - and i keep my luggage in the boot!).
> 
> either way, for track applications the toyo is still not on-par with to the rest of the cars capabilities - IMHO.


 
WOW- haven't taken mine off but my wear is at the outer edge of the tyre , not the center rib. That looks almost like heat-related failure.

You are oh-so-right about the capabailities balance.


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

You need tires. I need stage 2 and downpipe. 

Waiting on APR to replenish order with supplier for DP. Won't be stage 2'd by next track opportunity on Nov 10. But hopefully by the december 8, 9 event I'll be all settled in.


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## mageus (Sep 1, 2004)

LongviewTx said:


> either way, for track applications the toyo is still not on-par with to the rest of the cars capabilities - IMHO.


Yep, same thing happened to me at the end of their life. Heat failure. I was seeing mesh in a couple spots.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

UPDATE-
Got a new file on the ECU. I debriefed APR on the October track results, and they took the car in while I was traveling for a couple of weeks in November and December. The new file eliminated the hiccup as best I can tell (no repeats in spite of repeated attempts at the same track on the same turn doing the same behavior). Coincidentally, my commute gas mileage inched up a bit!

I also had the 034 RSB installed. THAT makes a HUGE difference. I gone 10/10s yet around the track, as the cooler weather and lack of time are my current excuse. The runs above were blitzes, not turn and burns, so I Could wring out the new softwre file. But the RSB is tangibly better in the seat-of-the-pants and on low-traffic streets. The car feels like it's turning about the rear tires (more), vice having to scrub the fronts to turn the piglet. I have the bar set at the soft setting (roughly 362% more roll stiffness than OEM). I'll see how taht works and learn it before doing something stoopid.

Much useful info here. Please continue to share perspectives and details so that we can all benefit from operating experience!


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

PS- I think I'm getting Michelin Pilot Super Sports as replacements. opinions?


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

*Factory alignment specs?*

A good street alignment is not (usually) a good track alignment and vice-versa. Does anybody have the actual alignment specifications from Audi for the RS? I don't recall if they have been posted before? 

LongviewTx's tire center damage could be consistent with too much pressure. It could also be a combination of the wrong pressure with the wrong camber and/or toe. (Or the Toyos could just be really sucky.) I can't tell if it's front or rear or which side is inner vs. outer. 

A great many years ago when my ability on the track finally matched that of the (stock-ish) car I needed to change my alignment specifications to minimize damage to the tires and to maximize track performance. More negative camber, more neutral toe. That's a recipe - on the street - for a darty front end that wears the inner edges of the tires out. But it works well on the track to keep the tires from chunking when your doing a lot of hard cornering.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

32vSC said:


> A good street alignment is not (usually) a good track alignment and vice-versa. Does anybody have the actual alignment specifications from Audi for the RS? I don't recall if they have been posted before?
> 
> LongviewTx's tire center damage could be consistent with too much pressure. It could also be a combination of the wrong pressure with the wrong camber and/or toe. (Or the Toyos could just be really sucky.) I can't tell if it's front or rear or which side is inner vs. outer.
> 
> A great many years ago when my ability on the track finally matched that of the (stock-ish) car I needed to change my alignment specifications to minimize damage to the tires and to maximize track performance. More negative camber, more neutral toe. That's a recipe - on the street - for a darty front end that wears the inner edges of the tires out. But it works well on the track to keep the tires from chunking when your doing a lot of hard cornering.


I have the RS specs adn will post them shortly.

You are correct about track versus street specs. I do precisely as you: camber and toe for track, then reset following to prevent weird wear. The Toyos suck, but mine did not fail in that way. In fact, they jst wore out and went greasy, fast!


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

InTTruder said:


> I have the RS specs adn will post them shortly.


Here are the specs you posted from Page 1 detailing what you ran:

Front:
Camber -1.5*
Caster at 7.9L and 7.3R
Toe set to 0.00

Rear:
Camber -1.5*

32LF 34RF
32LR 32RR

I am curious as to the differences to OE on the alignment. My bet is slightly less camber, a bit of toe-in, and about half as much castor. 

Is the caster maxed at ~7?

Can the rear toe be changed? Or only camber?



> You are correct about track versus street specs. I do precisely as you: camber and toe for track, then reset following to prevent weird wear.


Do you run back-and-forth to an alignment shop? Or... something else? 



> The Toyos suck, but mine did not fail in that way. In fact, they jst wore out and went greasy, fast!



Nice. Assuming reasonably even wear, that means you've hit the right alignment and pressures. I am mildly surprised that fronts don't seem to want even +1 PSI of stagger relative to the rear. But, if it works, it works. :thumbup:


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## 32vSC (Oct 11, 2009)

Wait, I read your pressures wrong. You DO have some positive front stagger on the right. Do you mostly run clockwise or counter-clockwise tracks?

EDIT: Nevermind. I see from your first post that AMP is counter-clockwise. The front right stagger makes sense. eace:


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

camber and toe are both adjustable front and rear but caster is fixed so any difference there is incidental.

Stock camber is closer to -0.5 and has way too much understeer dialed in for moderately aggressive street use. I tried -1.2 and it did eat up the inners pretty quick, trying -0.8 now. Car handled great at -1.2 tho


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