# those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here



## diygti (May 4, 2001)

The thorough directions for Megasquirt makes putting it together quite easy. On the other hand I think the directions for Megasquirt'n'spark have a long way to go before they are easily understandable.
It would be a great help for those who are using MS'N'S to post exactly how they set up their cars so the rest of us can do it as well. 
Questions I have personally are:
Can the ignition module from an 83 gti be used and wired the same way thats described in the files section of the MS'N'S yahoo group?
What exactly are the "fixed" and "trim" settings?
Which wire coming out of the distibutor is the hall sensor wire?
Is there a mechanical advance in my distributor that needs to be locked?
And it would be really great to get this question cleared up once and for all:
Which wiring diagram do I use for my 83 gti's hall sensor- number one or number two? 
Also: Please post your ignition maps. I need one for a stock 1.8 Jh motor.
Thanks, Daniel


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I can help and will post more info.. I think i was one of the first 4 people to get MSnS running and driving in a car.. Definitely the first VW.
Its actually a lot easier than it looks.
I'll see if i can make up a diagram in the next day or two to show how i wired mine up
I used this diagram from the megaspark list<this one>









The Megaspark diagram drops 5volts from Jp1 out on pin 27.. I then ran a jumper wire <short one> from pin 27 over to pin 24 <you could solder this on the board if you prefer> I ran mine on the relay board instead>
This provides the +5 v the coil circuit needs as well as the +5 volts to drive the + wire coming in from the hall sensor.
Its also easy to track down which wires coming from the hall are the power, ground and trigger by tracing them back to the ignition module. 
Heres the pinout from a VW ignition module <they are all the same>
Pin layout
1) Coil -
2) Ground / Hall - <someone check the bentley for me on this one>
3)
4) 12V
5) Hall Trigger
6) Hall-
7) Tach signal
Here's a Schematic showing how its wired with Megasquirt.. basically the hall trigger wire used to plug into pin 6 and now goes to pin 25 on the Megasquirt ECU, the Hall + goes to pin 24 along with that jumper i talked about and ground can go to any one of the grounds on the MS side, on the relay board you can use the Mat ground or TPS ground or Oxy ground etc connections. Heres the diagram showing how to wire the ignition module. You can also provide the module 12volts from Megasquirt off the switched 12V input. <jumper wire> or off one of the 12V + connections for the injectors. 








Let me know if i've missed anything.. I dont have a sample map for a regular 8V vw but there is one in the MSS file area. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









_Modified by CdnDub at 9:35 PM 5-27-2004_


_Modified by CdnDub at 3:20 PM 6-8-2004_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Forgot to mention.. You will want to use a CIS-E or Digifant Dizzy if you have an 8Valve or a 16V stock dizzy if you have a 16V
they both have 4 window hall sensors, no vacuum or mechanical advance and can be had cheaply.
Make sure you get the connector with it if you didnt have one in the car you are modifying since its different than the early oval style in the 83 gti.


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## dsamj (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Forgot to mention.. You will want to use a CIS-E or Digifant Dizzy if you have an 8Valve or a 16V stock dizzy if you have a 16V
they both have 4 window hall sensors, no vacuum or mechanical advance and can be had cheaply.
Make sure you get the connector with it if you didnt have one in the car you are modifying since its different than the early oval style in the 83 gti.


Does this apply to later model 8v's as well? (i.e. my 1994 8v?) 
Thanks,
Sam


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (dsamj)*

If its an ABA then you will need do figure something custom out.
The ABA's only have a single window dizzy from what I understand so you will either need the 3A dizzy from an Audi 2L <think its a drop in fit> that has 4 windows.. or will have to hack up two dizzy's and make one thats got the 4 window hall in it.


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## vw_Brian (Nov 26, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

or buy the super cheap dizzy ring adapter and swap gears and run a a2 8v or digi 4 window dizzy
hth
Brian


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (vw_Brian)*

What is it about the stock 83 gti distributor that keeps it from working? If I lock the advance mechanism will the hall sensor be sufficient?
I am on a pretty tight budget here so every way I can save money helps.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

hmm tight enough that you cant spend $10 at a wrecker for a proper dizzy?
I think the window sizes are also different in the stock dizzy.. and the reverse of the digifant.. ie large cutouts and small metal areas whereas the digi one has large cutouts and small holes. The stock dizzy is designed to trigger the spark when the rotor is at the tower or near it..that means the window would be very near the rotors actual position.. what you want is a setup thats designed for a computer controlled ignition like CIS-E or digi since it will have the window in advance of the rotor so it can "count" a predetermined number of microseconds before firing the spark and therefore can set your advance..


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

And to elaborate on something that Dave mentioned, the distributor from an Audi 80 2 liter motor will drop into an ABA block perfectly and provide the proper 4 window(vs the ABA single window) distributor. 
Great thread.


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Andrew Stauffer)*

Thanks for all of the info Cdndub.
I got the proper digifant distributor and did the wiring and ecu software upload, but I am not getting an RPM/hall sensor signal.
I was wondering if you could shed some more light on the hall sensor circuit. Did you use terminals on the relay board? if so which ones? Did you use resistors? if so What size? 
I can't get the middle led to flash on the MS box to tell me its getting hall sesnor signal. It just stays on- even when I completely disconnect the distributor wiring. 
I am worried something is really wrong- like my jumpers are connected wrong, I burned something up or the software isn't configured right or something. I uploaded the .s19 file to the ECU with easy therm but haven't changed any settings. 
Every bit of information you have would be great. I have read and re-read your instructions, the instructions in the mss file area, and have been searching the yahoogroups list for days and can't figure this out.



_Modified by diygti at 4:24 PM 6-7-2004_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I used pins on the relay board.. if you look there are extras somewhere in the manual it shows you which pin connects to the "extra" output pins on the connector coming out of MS.. or you can just use your multimeter and test them out yourself.
Follow the megaspark diagram except feed the jumper wire back from jp1 to a spare pin.. think i used pin 27 on mine <it does come out to the relay board>
You will need to remove the relay for the cold start valve <idle bypass valve> and jumper one of the pins to another so you have a straight thru connection all the way back to MS from the Fidle pin on the relay board..
feel free to post pics of your setup and i can help troubleshoot.


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

So you mean follow the lower diagram (diagram2) completely except for the jumper from jp1 to pin 27? So you used the 10 and 390 ohm resistors specified in the lower diagram?
Figuring out what resistors to use and where is really hanging me up. I haven't got any concrete answers on that yet from anybody. If you could let me know what actualy works on your car, I can be sure I have a working combination.
I won't post pics until I can figure out why I have no RPM on the stimulator now- even after jumping pin 7 and 25 as specified in the caption under diagram 2. I think I fried the circuit when using no resisitors. 
I saw it mentioned somewhere in a MS'N"S how to on a toyota site that the resistors were also responsible for protecting the circuit. There really should be a warning about that in the instructions. oh well- looks like I'll be troubleshooting the circuit for another few days.
Let me know about the resistors so I can have this thing going soon.
Thanks, Daniel


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I think i just used the stock resistor.. which Resistor are you talking about specifically?
and just use the upper diagram completely.. ignore the lower i should remove it.
Just be aware that you need pin 30 as well to trigger the output.. draw an imaginary line from the Pin27 connection to the + side of the hall connection and coil pin where it connects and make it into a jumper wire.
should get you going. since you're not filtering out high voltage from the coil you should be fine with the stock resitor.. make sure you bypass D8 with a jumper.. you can leave D8 in place and just add a jumper wire on top of it. in case you ever want to revert.


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

So you are saying that unless he ign module is hooked up it won't send any kind of signal (trigger/RPM) to the MS?
I am not sure what you mean by a stock resistor. Is it built into the ign module or something? 
The resistors I am talking about are regular old resistors that you would solder into place. The lower diagram shows 390 and a 10 ohm resistors. I have seen many others talk about "pullup" resisitors and having to experiment with different ones for their particular hall sensors to get a clean signal.
I guess if the hall sensor provided a ground then a resistor would protect the MS from damage from what would essentially be constant shorting by the hall sensor. 
Do you know if our hall sensors provide grounds for the trigger? I tested mine and it seemed to go from 6v to 1v as it turned. 
I still don't know why my rpm circuit isn't working anymore when using the stimulator- even after making the recomended fix for ms'n's ( a jumper from pin 7 to 25 on the stim).
I think I may have burned up U4 somehow but I am not sure yet. I will check in the morning.



_Modified by diygti at 2:28 AM 6-8-2004_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I removed the MSnS diagram.. I used the diagram thats posted.. as is.. no pullups, no mods other than the ones required to my megasquirt.
I'm only triggering the hall with +5 volts and not 12V which may be why i dont have problems?
specially since the hall is powered from MSnS and not from the vehicle 12V as well as being grounded right to my MS ecu.


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Sounds good, thanks for the clarification. I just need to verify one thing: Is it the center led that lights with the hall sensor trigger or is it the one on the left, near the db9?


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

It should be the middle one IIRC


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

Looks lke I have a bad hall sender. I have given up on this and decided that edis is the way to go. Almost done with the trigger wheel and collecting the parts. I'll start a new thread when I get it running. I can post pictures of all the jumpers I made for the MS'n's if anyone is inrested.


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## DutchJetta (Jan 29, 2003)

Hi,
Can anyone provide me with a Pre-programmed MS Moterola chip, plain MS latest version? I live in Holland Europe.
Thanks in advance!


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (DutchJetta)*

When I ordered my MS last fall the processor was already programed with the latest version at that time. I didn't have to reflash it until I decided to use the MegaSquirtNSpark code.


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

Ok, Dave, I need you to help me finish up some loose ends here.
this is what ive done so far, please tell me what needs to go where in addtion to what i have here.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

you should have the relay board just wired up so that it passes the FiDLE signal straight thru bypassing the FIDLE relay and back out the FIDLE connection.. which then goes to your trigger wire on your ignition module.
S1 is used for the hall sensor on my relay board and is wired back thru to pin 27 i think on the ecu connector..


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

Dave, im not exactly clear on what you mean by compleatly bypassing the FiDLE signal. Can you add to my picture i posted above and perhaps show me what wires i need to put where.
Thanks again man!


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

Your pic shows the relay socket with a wire.. What i'm uncertain of is how you managed to get the fidle output to come out of S1.. rather than the regular FIdle pin..
all you are doing is bypassing the relay.. a relay cant turn on and off fast enough to trigger the coil at 2000rpm let alone 7000rpm
What you want is to be able to take your multimeter at the end and have a straight thru path from your megasquirt ECU <pin 30> all the way thru the relay board to the fidle pin connection there <the screw down terminal> you should see 0 ohms at the end or something very close to it, like 1-5ohms depending on how long your relay board cable is.
S1 does get used but for something else.. as does S2.. these connections are used for the spare pins on the MS ecu where you brought out the extra connections like +5V to power the hall sensor, and then the input for the hall sensor trigger.. the ground for the hall can to go the oxy or mat ground on the relay board since they are all common.


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## DutchJetta (Jan 29, 2003)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GeoffVR6* »_When I ordered my MS last fall the processor was already programed with the latest version at that time. I didn't have to reflash it until I decided to use the MegaSquirtNSpark code.

This can be true, but we are building it ourselves, and I need a chip that works. Please help me to get this project on!


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (DutchJetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DutchJetta* »_
This can be true, but we are building it ourselves, and I need a chip that works. Please help me to get this project on!

Ahhh, you have a completly empty processor. I don't have an extra one. Did you consider making the "Willete Programmer" ? http://www.megasquirt.info/WillProg.htm Maybe Magnus from Sweden (MSnS Yahoo Group) has or knows someone closer to you that a has a programmer.


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

OK Dave, i think i have understood it. But just to make sure, does the following diagram look right? Except for the hall sender, i didnt really represent the 3 wires as they actually are, but imagine they are in the right spots...


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

Just got EDIS4 going on my 8v digiII.
After screwing around getting the trigger wheel and VR sensor mounted, wiring it in was simple.
I don't have the EDIS interfaced with my MS yet. (MS isn't even in the car) EDIS has a "limp-mode" where it locks in at 10 degres before TDC if it doesn't see a SAW signal from the ECU.. Just wanted to get it working and make sure the ignition wasn't a variable when switching to MS.
I'm pretty impressed with Ford's implementation of EDIS. It's a slick little system for sure.










_Modified by scandalous at 9:52 PM 7-4-2004_


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## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (scandalous)*

Can you post up some pictures of your edis install? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (plohip)*


_Quote, originally posted by *plohip* »_Can you post up some pictures of your edis install? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Sure... I'll get some up sometime today.
I have to warn you though, my trigger wheel and VR sensor setup is SUPAH ghetto.
I'm very close to having my MS ready to go in the car. 
XG1 and XG2 have been jumpered with a 1k resistor and D9 has been removed and a 1k resistor now runs from the non-band end to the little hole just above D9.
Version 3007 code has been installed.
My VW coolant temp guage has been calibrated and reads within 2 degres on my GM MAT sensor at ambient.
Finally found an Auto Passat throttle body and the TPS is calibrated.
Have a complete 3 complete VAG engine harnesses from a 4000 Quatro so I have plenty of wire and connectors.
Just a matter of getting the time to wire it in at this point. I am only going to do spark at first when i get the box wired in as I haven't spent much time educating myself on getting the fuel correct.



_Modified by scandalous at 9:19 AM 7-7-2004_


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## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (scandalous)*

My whole car is ghetto, as long as it works. lol


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (plohip)*

Using an Escort crank pulley with the wheel pressed on. I initially put the Escort pulley on with the serpentinebelt portion still attached, but it hit the framerail under load. I used a hand drill to bust up the rubber and pryed it off while it was still on the car. That's why it looks so beat.
I just lined up the VW and escort pulleys using a socket through the middle of them and then drilled the four holes in the Escort pulley. It worked remarkably well. The pulley dead straight and has no wobble.
The bracket is a piece of metal/bolts/washers scrounged from my garage. .








Took me about 2 hours from start to finish to get it all made and on the car.








Coil pack is bolted on through the loop on the head.


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

Has anyone Put MSandspark on a 16v? I could really use a decent Ignition map for a 16v, mine is a 8v, and its missin like a virgin at a frat party.


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## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Hotrodjrod)*

I am about to very soon. I also can't find a timing map, I am going to be using one from a honda b-series engine as a basemap and tune from there.


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

I had a friend make up a map the other day, Im going to give it a shot tommorow, i'll let ya know if its decent or not.


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

Got my MS wired in last night and all the little loose ends buttoned down.
Car fired up first try! Using the ignition map that is on the MSforums in the files section.
It won't dle when it's cold, but after it warms up, it idles right at 900rpm and is completely drivable. Doesn't run too bad all things being considered, lot's of tuning left to get it perfect.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (scandalous)*

Is this on the megavag yahoo group?


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: (plohip)*

No, it's in the MSnEDIS files section, here's the link.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/...ps/VW/
It's for an 2.0 8v.
Seems to be pretty close for my 1.8 8v.
Dunno how it would work with a 16v. More than likely a pretty good start though.



_Modified by scandalous at 6:16 PM 7-11-2004_


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: (scandalous)*

its decent for a 16v, but not great. im getting ready to try another one here in a few, i'll let everyone know how it works.


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

I started with the 8v map from yahoo and went from there. Keep in mind that this is not near perfect for my 2.0 16vT or any of our engines. You have to add 10 degrees to each # to get MY ACTUAL timing as read by my timing light ( I have initial setup problems yet )
















This next pic is a little off topic but I ran this time with MSnS vs a 2.7 S4.









The MSnS worked great but I didn't pull off a good run. (shift linkage issues)


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

you need to change your trigger angle in order to bring things closer to your real ignition map.


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

The last time I set it up the only way I was able to get it to run was to fully deadvance the slotted 16v distributor and set the trigger angle at 130. I'm pretty sure I'm missing somehthing simple here. The setup instructions are slightly confusing so I found a way to make it work by moving the dist in different places and adjusting the trigger angle.
I was thinking that I could lengthen the slots on the distributor to make my #'s the same as actual but I decided to wait on that and see what everyone else was doing. I'm at the end of trigger angle now ( 134 ) and that just doesn't seem right. I havn't had time to retry the setup. I'm shooting for the weekend to do that.


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## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

are you using the inverted signal (modified) schematic or the regular one? I was trying to get mine to run with the regular one and it would never work, so I modified my board to invert the signal (harder to do on a V1.01 board). I beleive the logic is backwards in the help files (high to low, use this schematic, ect). As it stands I just got my 16V running on MSnS without moving the distributor from the stock position and a fixed angle of 90 degrees in the program (will be fine tuning that tonight)
It ends up with the reverse hall sender transition almost right on TDC which works with the trigger based crank timing.
I'm also starting out with the 2.0 8V map. I plan on decreasing the total advance because:
a) a 16V requires less advance because the plug is in the center of the bore 
b) a 1.8L needs less advance because of the smaller bore
Ben


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## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: (BennyB)*

I think (maybe his name is Vexxed somthing or another) asked you about some help for me and my ITB'd 16v. I need a little help, some fuel maps, and ign. maps. as well as some other Questions. PM me your Instant messenger handle if you have one, or just pm me at least please!
Thanks dude!


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (BennyB)*

I believe I used the regular schematic. I don't recall a different one for inverted. I have a v2.2 board and I'm running normal ( non inverted ) with trigger return.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_








Heres the pinout from a VW ignition module <they are all the same>
Pin layout
1) Coil -
2) Ground / Hall - <someone check the bentley for me on this one>
3)
4) 12V
5) Hall Trigger
6) Hall-
7) Tach signal


the ignition module pin layout is as follows (per the Bentley)
1) Coil - (tap into for tach signal)
2) Ground (valve cover)
3) Hall ground (pin 1 Hall sender)
4) 12v (switched, tap into Coil +)
5) Hall + (pin 3 Hall sender)
6) Hall signal (pin 2 Hall sender)
7) not used
from what i can see looking at your wiring method, the simpler, and just as effective way to go about it would be to use all of those ign module connections as factory intended and all you would need to change is send the hall signal (pin 2 from Hall) to megasquirt pin 25 then connect megasquirt pin 30 to ign module pin 6. you would still need to jumper XG1-X11 and jumper megasquirt pin 24 to pin 28 to power the megasquirt coil circuit. but thats it... am i missing something?
i'm just speaking from a theoretical standpoint, i have yet to do the "nSpark" conversion.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

ok, i was bored tonight and felt like playing in photoshop, so here is the little diagram that i think should work just fine. i used a scan from the Bentley and someone elses diagram and modified them a bit, hope they don't mind.







anyway, will the seasoned veterans tell me what (if anything) is wrong with my idea? i was a bit concerned about the power feed for the hall sender coming from the ign module, but then i found that all "pre-knock controlled" vw used this configuration without issue. 
**image removed due to inaccuracy**
so i'm still not totally clear on the tach signal though, pin 24 (that used to be used as tach input) is now simply a 12v powered circuit (i don't understand the reasoning for that) so does megasquirt read the rpms via the hall sender through pin 25 now? and should i use the (-) side of the coil to send the tach signal to my cluster tach? 


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 11:57 PM 9-2-2004_


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Pin 24 is the Ignition input to the ECU signal from the hall sender ( the one the pull up resistor goes to so the ECU can see the differance between ground and not ground ) The ECU uses that for it's tach signal. You still use the - coil terminal for the cluster's tach guage. The ECU modifies the tach signal's timing ( acording to how you set up your ignition map in MSnS ) and outputs it to pin 30 which goes to pin 6 of the Ignition module and fires your coil.
When you say pin 25, do you mean pin 24? Pin 25 is unused on my setup.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

now i'm even more confused, look up to Cdndub's diagram and he's using pin25 for the hall input








are you using this schematic?










_Modified by MidnightGLI at 12:01 AM 8-18-2004_


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Sorry for the confusion. No I didn't use the schematic above. I used http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html ( click on external diagram ) and I added the diagram from the MSnS yahoo group to it. My computer can't display the one you just posted... you have mail.


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## Junkyardrabbit (Jul 7, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

So does anyone have MSnS working properly yet? Am looking into this rather seriously, but am a little confused. I still can't get yahoo to shoot out a user i.d. so I can download the n'sprk software so I can have a look. Is it just a matter of downloading the software and hooking it to my existing (hall sensing) ignition according to a diagram. Any one agree on a diagram yet?


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Junkyardrabbit)*

this is Geoff's diagram if anyone else is interested. i've looked through it a bit and am still trying to make sense of some of the hand written stuff. i'll come up with some solid questions or conclusions (if i'm lucky) and then respond.










_Modified by MidnightGLI at 11:38 PM 8-19-2004_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

I used a 5V optional output from the MS unit to power the hall and the ignition input circuit on the MS ecu so that its fairly self contained and free of noise..
Powering via 12V should work.. but if you have a noisy 12V system you may run into triggering issues.. or cook your hall sensor.. <dont ask how many dizzies i went thru testing things>
Dave


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Dave, i think your method is a good one for the reason u just stated, the less variables there are to deal with the easier it is to track down problems. now my next questions is, does the coil circuit (pin 24) need 5v or can it take 12v without a resistor (straight bridge from pin 28 to pin 24)?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

If you look at the Megaspark diagram i posted it shows the same 5V being used for the hall sensor and the coil input on pin 24.. its worked well for me on 3 occasions now.. <3 running vehicles> 
and i wouldnt hesitate to go that way again.. my GTI rev'd to 8200rpm at one point and i didnt have any ignition cutouts etc.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

thanks Dave, i might be IMing you shortly once i get all the hardware installed and such. does anyone happen to have a base 16v timing map i could use to fine tune with?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

i have a question already, on your schematic it shows to jumper X12 - JP 1-8 which of the JP1-8 do i solder to??


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

ok, got the car all wired up and plan on starting the tuning within the next few days.
i'm a bit confused regarding the "trigger angle", how do i figure out what to set that to and then in the tuning window there is the "fixed angle" and the "trim angle".
from my understanding, the trigger angle is the physical point at which the hall signal changes indicating a trigger event. the fixed angle is the base timing angle (same as turning the distributor). so is the trim angle the fine tuning angle off of the fixed angle? 
can someone that has their 16v running post up all of their settings so i can at least get the car started and then do some butt dyno tuning.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

feel like i'm talking to myself here, but anyway... i got the car running on MSnS, still need to play with the timing tomorrow, but it fired up on the first shot (after i remembered to reconnect the coil wire, and after i remembered to plug in the map vacuum hose)


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

this is the official wiring diagram that i used and it works wonderfully. i hooked the + side of the Hall sender directly into the ignition module and the signal is clear as day, so if it's easier to do it that way i don't see any reason not to, but Daves idea of going straight into pin 24 of the megasquirt is probably more consistantly a good idea.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

I have a question about the software for megasquirt.
To tune fuel and spark do you'll use one program or two? What I mean is do you use the megatune to tune fuel and megatune SS to tune spark?


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

you use both programs.


----------



## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (plohip)*

Anyone know if this will work on a 20v turbo motor with 4 individual coils, i.e. no distributor or plug wires?? thanks
ryan


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (moneymakin)*

Ryan, 
No, this won't work for you, but I beleive that MSnEdis will do the job just fine......


----------



## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Andrew Stauffer)*

Just a little curious if anyone has kept their knock box setup with MSn'S ?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (scandalous)*

Knock box setup wouldnt work with MSnS..
since the knock box controls the ignition timing with its own map.


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

I'm running a MegaSquirt for fuel and a stock knock ignition for spark. I'm adding spart this winter, maybe EDIS, who knows. But you wouldn't need the 'nSpar' part if you've already got a stock knock ignition, or viceversa.....


----------



## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Knock box setup wouldnt work with MSnS..
since the knock box controls the ignition timing with its own map.









Gotcha...
Just asking because I have absolutely no clue (obviously) how the knock box interfaces with the rest of the ignition. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (scandalous)*

I just switched from a non-working EDIS setup to nSpark. All that I needed to use is the Ignition control module. Not running yet though, I am getting my plugwires tomorrow. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (plohip)*

Got the plugwires in, the car fired right up. I just need to mess with the trigger angle stuff and I will finally be done!


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (plohip)*

this is the base ignition map i used for my nSpark controlled 16v. it is far from dialed in, but it's a great start that shouldn't knock but has a lot power. make sure you're using 92-93 octane fuel. there is more power that can be pulled from this, i plan on working it tonight, i'll let u know tomorrow what i come up with.










_Modified by MidnightGLI at 2:19 PM 9-15-2004_


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

I got the timing set and the car idles! I am still using the 8v map. I need to try yours out, put in my 450cc injectors, and change my timing belt and I am ready to go! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

I've been trying to fix a random missfire that I believe is related to how my ignition inputs to the MS board ( it happens once every 1 to 5 minutes at cruise with the AFR good ( 14:1 ). At anyrate I've modified the board to CdnDub's schematic posted by MidnightGLI. The hall sensor pin #'s seem to be incorrect to the VW pin #'s but if you use the labels it should work just fine. I wish I would have seen it sooner... Switch the ground side of the optoisolator's LED instead of Bringing the hot side down to ground for the switch. I'll find out in a day or two after I get a chance to change some wires under the hood if it is better ... else I have other issues with my missfire.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

After converting my ignition input to the "isolated" style and useing the 5 volt rail I think I have my random missfires corrected. One odd thing is that I had to dial in the distributor and trim angle to get it to run. But at least my ignition map #'s are now the same as my timing light now ( unlike my earlier posts in this thread ).


----------



## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

Midnight, what injectors are you using? and are you boosted, or just N/A? I'll be ready to start back in on tuning in a week or so, as im almost finnally finished with my wiring. I still gotta find a Radiator though, :-/ I blew the other one up! lol
I have a 2.0 16v with ITB's just like daves. I had it making som power b4 i blew up the rad, but it had a HUGE dead spot in it, after about 2000 rpm.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

i'm using 19lb digi 2 injectors with the standard digi fpr. i'm just running NA, i've got a header, 2.25 exhaust, and exhaust/intake cam swap.


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*









What's with all these empty spots once I pluged in your map? lol
So, who is going to try MSnSextra? I have it burned and am setting everything up. I can't try it until my new coil gets here though. 
More info: http://msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3258


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (plohip)*

I've been waiting for the new extra code to mature. Now that I've finally taken the car to the dyno I'll probably get it running on that before winter. That's the first screenshot I've seen of it with a 12x12 map. I can't wait to try it!
Let us know how you like it when you get it running.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

what do you have to do to get the 12x12 bins?! mmmmm, i WANT!!!!!


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

http://not2fast.wryday.com/meg...lease/
Get the newest megatune (mt225b271_setup.exe, the last one here)
Then just follow the steps in the install section in the first link. The newest megatune already has the ini file for MSnSextra (even the shortened version of the name is getting long) you just need to enable it.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (plohip)*

but still no 12 X 12 spark and fuel map


----------



## Hotrodjrod (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

why do you want a 12x12 anyway? I guess im kinda dumb on this stuff still, as the car hasnt been running in a couple months, i have lost the small bit of tuning knowledge in my brain.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

more room for fine tuning.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

You have to go into ( If you installed to the default path ) C:\Program Files\MegaSquirt\car1\mtCfg and change the settings.ini file to change the base configuration to what you need to use (instructions are in the .ini text). Then you will see the new stuff. I believe they did that for compatability reasons.


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

Started the car with extra. I have 12x12 enabled, but I only have 8x8 pluged in for both spark and fuel. It works fine and I actually got idle. Hopefully I will make some 12x12 base maps soon. I need to put in my wide band first though.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (plohip)*

Guys,
I've been running MS fuel only for a couple of years, now I'm ready to step up to MS 'n Spark. I"m guessing that the correct schematic is "SCHEMATIC 2" (see Yahoo link below) But I'm confused by the use of the extra 390 ohm and 10 ohm resistors in schematic 2:
http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/g...2.jpg
- do I use:
***"schematic 2" exactly (including the 2 resistors) or 
***NOT USE ANY EXTRA RESISTORS AT ALL and follow exactly the schematic on page 1 of this post (see below)?










_Modified by ijcameron at 6:03 PM 10-21-2004_


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

use this schematic, this is exactly how myself and several others have done it and works perfectly. if your 12v system is noisy for some reason you'd be best to run the power wire to the hall sender from the pin 27, but if not it's totally fine to power it from the ign module like i did.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

So, no extra resistors?


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

Also, when I run MS'n'S on the stimulator, do I need to change anything? The Yahoo "Schematic 2" diagram says I need to jumper pins 7 and 25 on the stimulator so that I can see RPM - is this correct?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

no resistors and i don't have a stim so i have no idea. HTH


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

I switched my setup to the last schematic on this thread and it has been working great for me. I didn't use any extra resistors on my car like the schematic shows. After I started switching the ground side of the MSnS it has been alot more stable than useing a pull up and switching the hot side of the IGN input to ground.


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

Ah, yes, that's the scoop I've been waiting for but not quite sure how to ask. No resistors and use that schematic. Off to the garage....


----------



## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

Well HOT DARN! figured it out. My wires (I am ashamed to say








) were mislabled by me for the hall sensor. When I peeled back the plug to do the "stupid" checks, I verified the wires and numbers on the plug. That is when I realized the problem and switched the wires from the ignition module. Then trigger happened, then start! I reset all of the triggering parameters and put it all together to drive it. Now I have a new problem. A ACT stage 3 clutch and lightened flywheel can't seem to handle my power output at 19-20 psi.







SOOOO... I had to drop it down on my EVC. Don't know how much I will be able to hold before it slips in 4th or 5th though. Rev's super clean to 7k and I never pushed past 1400EGT. That was my biggest issue. I used to CRUISE at 1400. That is what retarded timing will do to you though right! Thanks to those that were trying to help me though!!!


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (DTRguy)*

Glad you got it working, most of my problems are idiot kind.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (plohip)*

What do you 8V guys have entered as your "trigger angle"?


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

70 degrees


----------



## juki (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re:*

Does anyone have good 12x12 or 8x8 base spark map for nearly stock 1.8 8v gti engine?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (juki)*

2.0 8v map on yahoo groups should be a great start
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/...91113
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0...p.xls


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_use this schematic, this is exactly how myself and several others have done it and works perfectly. if your 12v system is noisy for some reason you'd be best to run the power wire to the hall sender from the pin 27, but if not it's totally fine to power it from the ign module like i did.









Hey guys,

So if I'm running my hall signal into pin 25 as in the schematic, what's pin 24 doing? It was wired to the ignition coil when the MS was doing fuel only. Does this remain in place as I feed the hall sensor signal into pin 25 or does the "hall into pin 25" effectively *replace* the need for "coil into pin 24"?

Edit: okay, I see it. Someone confirm for me that I've got this right..... the wire from the coil to pin 24 is gone. The jumper from 27 to 24 is now providing the current needed and replaces the wire. Signal in on 25, signal out on 30 Fidle, and set up. 




_Modified by Andrew Stauffer at 5:54 AM 11-18-2004_


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

Yep, that is right.


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (plohip)*

Ah good, I can nearly finish my wiring harnesses tonight then......


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

i'll also confirm that you got it right, i should make my diagram a little more explanitory...


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Is the spark "regular" or "inverted"?
Are you running "trigger" or "time based" cranking?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

regular and trigger based.
the easy way to get your trigger angle set is to get an advance timing light (kind with the dial on it) and set your trigger angle to 0 and your fixed angle to 10, set the timing light to 10 and then turn your distributor until the timing light shows TDC (the smaller notch furthest right on the flywheel). that way your trigger angle will always be 0 and you can set your timing map and that will be your actual timing.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

YES! yES! yES!
I AM SO PUMPED! 
It, and for the first time holds a steady idle right from start up! (I had a non-Hall sensor points ignition system prior to this)
Thank you so much!


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

right on! congrats!


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Alright,
Mine is up and running - I've started a post on the http://www.msefi.com website. I found the installation confusing, and I'm sure I'm not alone - I'm hoping that if some other people can critique my instructions and make them as clear as possible tha tmore people will be tempted to go this route.
Also, a lot of other brands (SAAB, Volvo etc) have the same ignition system - hopefully these people will also find this post useful.
Thanks to Midnight GLI for the diagram - it made a big difference!
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4826


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Did any of you guys use a Version 1 board for the "nSpark"? I went to add my jumpers and it's not at all labeled on the PCB as I was anticipating.







Not being a natural genious at electronics(or muchy else







), this is causing a big ole work stoppage......


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

eek, no idea... sorry man


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

The crew at MSEFI.com says to compare V1 board layout to V2 as per the info on the Bowling and Grippo site. Hopefully that sheds the light I need.......


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

a short video i took with a 0-80mph run to give an idea of the smoothness. i just recently swapped out my old 19lb digi injectors for some G60s and still have some fiddling on the top end. believe it or not, before the injector swap my top end was MUCH better, i was slamming the rev limiter but now i have to retune that area. i was running 97% duty cycle with the 19lb, now i'm only running 80% with the 24lb g60s. but anyway, gives you a bit of an idea.
http://forum.vwsport.com/pics/...s.wmv


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 11:47 AM 12-12-2004_


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

im confused as helll.......
...im going to control spark and fuel by MS, i have relay board and the bd37 cable........do all the sensors, and all the stuff from ignition goes to relay board only?????
where do i download the program to have megasquirt and spark??????


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (wethvento)*

http://www.msefi.com is a great support forum and when you register (no worries, its free) you can access the download section which has all the software you need. but i would highly recommend reading everything you can on that forum and if you have any VW specific related questions, there are some good guys here that would be willing to help out. but there is SOOOOOOOOOOO much to learn simply on the concepts and such.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

hey guys... hoping somebody here can help me out

Doing an MS&S on my buddies aba16v. Using the hall effect in the dizzy. 
Ok, as far as the jumpers etc in the unit itself, i followed this diagram exactly: 








Now the trigger signal LED is on constantly. 
Here is what i did differently from the diagram. 
-The Sensor ground, just goes to ground. 
-Power for the sensor is provided 5v from pin 27. 
power is there, i get about 4.7v via multimeter on the power pin of the dizzy. 
ground is there, 5 ohms between pin on dizzy and negative term. 
rpm just reads a dead zero... i do not have a stim for it so i cannot test. 
any ideas? 
****edit**** found D8 and it is jumpered.










_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 4:17 AM 2-3-2005_


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

so did that fix the problem? if not, then check the pins on the hall sender and make sure you have the right ones going to the right place, i know they are in a funky arrangement. and you have the hall signal going to pin 25, not pin 24 right?

_Modified by MidnightGLI at 12:47 AM 2-3-2005_


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 12:50 AM 2-3-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

You did connect Hall pin 2 to MS pin 25 and not pin 24, right?
If that checks you disconnect the pin from the ECU and test it with your meter as you spin the distro. Does it stay high or pulse? If it's high you have a hall problem, not an MS problem.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

Yup pin 25... 
Outputs from hall are hooked up - O +, based on the matching symbols on the distributor. 
I think we might have toasted the hall by feeding it 12v when we first tried this. I have a spare 20v hall sitting here i might plug it in and see if we get anything different happening. 
As you are probably aware spare 16v distributors are not so easy to come by.


----------



## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
As you are probably aware spare 16v distributors are not so easy to come by. 

the 8v hall sender works in the 16v dizzy.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

Yeppers they do, and it's definitley possible that an un-resistored 12v fried that puppy.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i should modify that diagram, if you use the full ignition module harness from an old rabbit or whatever it comes with an inline resistor and fuse (i think) in a "capsule" type plastic thing. i wouldn't have thought 12v could fry a hall, i've just heard that it makes for a noisy signal based on the fluctuations of the 12v system where as a 5v is always consistantly 5v.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

good news is, there is a complete 16v dizzy at a local pick apart yard. we'll run out there after lunch and snatch it. 
also not one but 2 obd I aba blocks !


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

Pick up a block and shoot it my way. I need a spare.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

lol. 
frieght would cost more then the damn short block
so i triple checked everything today... the 3 jumper **** DOES work on that hall sensor correct? 
pin 25 and 27. 
that pretty much narrows it down to the sensor then. :-/ 
went to the yard the sensors aren't so easy to pull huh, need a freakin tiny pair of circlip pliers it looks like. 
somebody raided that 16v dizzy between 10 am when i saw it and 4 pm when we went back with the right tools


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

you are not jumpering pin 24/25/27 are you? just jumper 24 and 27. and you have all FOUR of the jumpers shown on that diagram right, only three are pointed out, but the bold line is a jumper.
IM me so we can figure this out, i think it's simply a wiring error...


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 12:15 AM 2-4-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

True, if he had pins 24,25,27 all tied in tha could be the problem, +5v on all of it. Quick test for that is to remove the hall plug from the dizzy, if you still get the spark LED on, then it's the MS wiring. If it goes off, it's a shorted out hall in the dizzy.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

yea i have all four and def only jumpered 24 and 27. 
only possibility is that i maybe miscounted pins or something so i will try unplugging it and see if the light goes out. Thanks guys i'll let you know. 
If that doesn't work i guess i'll get another hall sensor


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

ok, i double tripple checked all my jumpers, continuety is correct everywhere. I triple checked that the wiring is correct out of the hall sensor, good to go there. 
disconnected the sensor, and i show 0v on pin 25. 
i think its time to try another sensor. 


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 7:50 AM 2-7-2005_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

Dont know if this can help out but this is a picture of the ABA VR sensor and I just added what pins do what.Probably no help at all....


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

So I finished re-wiring my entire GTI the other day... Now I need to install the roll cage, battery box, and make the mods to the MS board for MSnS. 
This post is very informative and helpful with MSnS! I cant wait to get it up and running!!!!!














ITS BEEN LIKE 5 Months!!!
Once I am happy with some 12x12's for MSnS Extra, it will be time to go to the dyno and play with the ignition timing and fuel for max power on a mostly stock 2.0 16V (83.5mm pistons, TT downpipe-exhaust, and extrude honed 42mm intake<-yes stupid, I know ok?







)
I plan on hooking up a Knock Sensor to an LED of some sort so I can keep all of the values "Safe" for 93 octane and a stock 16V.
Anyone mess with knock sensors in regards to MSnS????


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

I am currentley doing a MSnS EDIS conversion and was wondering if there is a EDIS coil pack available that takes the original VW / audi ignition lead plugs or do i have to scrap my nice new magnecors and use a set of ford ones ???


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

i finally have an AWESOME ignition map thanks to a post not long ago with the factory 16v map. i did some tweaking to that and now it's bang on! my VE map is a bit funky because i don't think i have the correct rating on my injectors but the car is very strong. i've been spinning them at the top of 1st and half way through 2nd on a consistant basis (new tires too...) so i'll post up that ignition map if anyone is interested. as far as the knock detection is concerned i think you need to build another board so MSnS-E can handle it, a simple LED will not work, has to do with the detection of the audible knock. You might want to consider holding off for a little while and see how MSII progresses, it might be available by the time you're ready for it. regarding the ignition wires, i'm not sure but i don't see any reason why you couldn't splice your new wires onto the EDIS ends, but i've never really messed with those so i could be totally wrong. plohip does though, you might want to IM him if he doesn't reply to this thread.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

yup i was going to take that ignition map and just pull a degree of timing per psi of boost to get a base ignition map for this car, if we could ever get the damn thing running. 

i think my next step will be to change the hall effect and if that still doesn't work i came up with the idea of using my wideband o2 sensors 0-5v datalogging system as an oscilliscope to see... 



_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 8:28 AM 2-8-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

Search on the MS site or Turbobricks for Knocksense. A fellow named Boris made a little knock detection board that simulates a stock Volvo knock circuit. Worked pretty well hooked up to my Rabbit when it was pinging. You'll need to put in an opto between the LED output of the knocksense and the MS knock input but I think that's all thats needed. I know he posted the schematic of that somewhere in the MSnS knock discussions.
Pete, that should work but there are easier ways.. You could hook up an LED between the hall signal and ground to test it. It'll blink when it's triggering. Don't forget to excite with 5v though.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_I am currentley doing a MSnS EDIS conversion and was wondering if there is a EDIS coil pack available that takes the original VW / audi ignition lead plugs or do i have to scrap my nice new magnecors and use a set of ford ones ???

If you can find one, use a late VW 2.0 coilpack. Looks like a VR6 one but only 4 post. Use that instead of the EDIS coils.
{edit}
Midnight, post up that map!! Did you add 6deg base timing to the 16v map or just run it as is? I could never get a solid answer if that map was just the ECU added timing, or total.


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Search on the MS site or Turbobricks for Knocksense. A fellow named Boris made a little knock detection board that simulates a stock Volvo knock circuit. Worked pretty well hooked up to my Rabbit when it was pinging. You'll need to put in an opto between the LED output of the knocksense and the MS knock input but I think that's all thats needed. I know he posted the schematic of that somewhere in the MSnS knock discussions.
Pete, that should work but there are easier ways.. You could hook up an LED between the hall signal and ground to test it. It'll blink when it's triggering. Don't forget to excite with 5v though.

Cool I was thinking of just putting 5V or so to it with an LED. If I remember correctly the Bentley manual has something in there about testing the knock sensor like this. 
I have seen something about hooking up knock sensors with MSnS but I havent looked into it all that much. I will have to look at some of those discussions...


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Not sure if i'm arriving late at the game and have missed the ball but hasnt anyone looked here?
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/knock.html
I've been selling ECU's with MSnSnExtra code loaded for the last 3 months and its working great in all sorts of vehicles. I'm about to start testing the Knock stuff and Boost control.
Cheers,
Dave


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

That's the MSnS-E knock circuit, the precursor to that was the Knocksense which is a separate little unit, cheap and in a box. That would work fine, and I think it's functionally the same as knocksense. I'm running out of room in my box with the flyback and now my VR conditioner in there. Good solution either way.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Are you trying out the new trigger wheel support with your factory VR sensor?
I'd be interested to hear what your doing.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I'm going to give it a shot. I'm going to get the car running on the hall, and then switchover to VR. 
It's supposedly tested with the 60-2 now, so it *should* be pretty straightforward. Using the stock 60-2 in an ATW block, with the sensor. 
The schematic for the conditioner is up on the MSnS board, in the Wheel Decoder topic.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I'd love to run off a factory VR6 or ABA trigger wheel are they both 60-2 teeth.. i've never actually examined one in person and it seems stupid to add other sensors when its all built in.
all we need to add now is cam position information and MS could do coil near plug etc natively still dont see a huge advantage to sequential injection but if people want that they can use the genboard stuff.
I need more motors to play with








My buddy's 86 911 is another project for MS, i think the factory motronic VR pickup on both the porsche's and BMW's is 100tooth and i have no idea if its missing any or not, its usually part of the flywheel.
It would be interesting to see what MS thought of that signal.



_Modified by CdnDub at 8:22 PM 2-8-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Yep the ABA and VR6 are both 60-2.. they might even be the same wheel physically.
I don't see the advantage for seq, but cop or coil near plug would be rad. I want to do it just to do it. I'll still use my distributor, as 4 coils is some $$. Unless I need the extra juice.
Not sure about the Porsche flywheel, but it's probably missing tooth if its Motronic. For MS to work it HAS to be a missing tooth wheel for it to work from what I understand.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

a die grinder will take care of the missing tooth situation no matter what







though if its the starter ring gear like it is on my old BMW then it may make the starter hard to engage once in a while








I love the idea of sequential ignition or coil near plug.
I'm in the midst of planning for MS with EDIS-6 on my Suzuki Forsa 3cyl turbo
i'm going to mount the 36-1 wheel on my Cam gear with the sensor mounted on the valve cover.
It should allow me to run an EDIS-6 coilpack on a 3cyl as Coil near plug.. and maybe even find a set of honda or something COP style coils and trigger those instead for an even cleaner install
I'll be testing that in the next few weeks. I'm dying to get rid of the stupid air flapper VAM meter.
Before i get flamed for non VW content.
I just finished installing MS on 3 different VW's.. two 83/84 GTI's one with my old ITB's and the other with my old Cyl head with 12:1 CR.. both sound nasty







and then building an 87 Jetta GLI 1.8L crossflow turbo using MS and the stock digi dizzy 
They all make crazy power..


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

my picture host is being retarded and not letting me upload, but i'll get the map out as soon as the shiz comes back up. i'm going to be converted to EDIS hopefully soon and want to get rid of this leaky distro. hey CndDub, can you IM me, i've been trying to figure out why MSnS-E won't run on my car, it's really pi$$ing me off. i've obviously got regular MSnS running fine, but -E doesn't.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I don't see the advantage for seq, .

I think it's emissions and a smooth idle. Once you're rolling, i don't think it makes much difference, especially at a 12:1 AFR


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

Sequential will give you a 2% power boost on the very top end.. aka over 6k plus.. but takes TONS of engineering to do so.. and yes on the bottom end its emissions thats greatly affected and only low rpm.. 
otherwise its not really worthwhile.. I'll play with it in future whenever i get around to buying a genboard to play with or when UMS comes out.
midnightGLI i'll pm you now.. or email me at [email protected] and i'd be happy to chat.
Dave


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Sequential will give you a 2% power boost on the very top end.. aka over 6k plus.. 
Dave

I'd always believed the sequential only made a difference at lower rpm because once the injector duty cycle exceeds about 35-40% (depending on the cam) it's spraying into the port with its intake valve closed. Have I missed something?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

If you can time your fuel spray with your valve opening even tho its up in the 50-60% duty cycle range its still going to have some effect and since all the valves open ad different times its possible that it will have some effect.
I've heard it makes a difference on the F1 cars and other very highly tuned motors where they have to run intake restrictors etc.. Its ultimate efficiency and not likely a place we'd ever gain any power on a street driven vehicle. or even a hobbiest built race car.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

here is the optimized spark map that i have come up with. runs smooth as butter.
the reason for the high advance at 500 rpm is make starting easier and to prevent the car from stalling when coming down to idle. and the flat 6 degree spot is my idle area, you may need to move that around depending on what map and rpm you like to idle at. cheers!










_Modified by MidnightGLI at 8:01 PM 2-10-2005_


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Thanks.
What's your setup? Stock 9A?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

9a, eurosport header, eurosport exhaust, exh/int cam swap (done right BTW), and thats it for now.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

The "right way"?


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

adjustable cam sprocket, this thread explains how to get it right instead of the "just mark 7 teeth to the right and throw it in" approach, i found out the hard way that just isn't acceptable. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1801079


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

MidnightGLI whats your trigger angle at? is that actually 6deg's at idle or are you seeing closer to 10? 6 seems like very little
I'm just creating a 12x12 table for fuel and ignition for a 1.8L crossflow turbo car i'm tuning today and have a few spark tables to pull ideas from now.. I'll post the results and how it runs soon.
Dave


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

i'm actually running 6 degrees of actual timing at idle. here's the thing, when i initially setup MSnS, i set my trigger angle to 0, set fixed angle to 10, adjusted the distro until the timing light showed 10, then put the fixed angle back to zero and checked the actual timing at idle using the map and it was bang on. now i'm being told that having a trigger angle of 0 is a bad thing, which MAY be why i'm having trouble running the MSnS-E code. but yeah, 6 degrees at idle and it's right at 1000 rpm, but i also dont' have an idle adjust screw (passat 16v auto tb) so i have the throttle plate closed all the way and the large vacuum port used for the charcoal canister left un plugged. like i said before, you may need to tweak the idle area of the map for your own application, but the rest of it is right where it should be. BTW on that crossflow motor your best bet is using the 2.0 8v ign map already on the yahoo forums, the 8v will need a bit more timing advance than the 16v (i'm sure you already knew that







)


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 12:40 PM 2-12-2005_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Trigger angle should be closer to 60deg's thats what the turbo car i setup is running and the other two NA cars.. thats when the pickup enters the window and turns on the hall circuit.. you cant subtract from 0.. 
Dave
sidenote.. 1.8L crossflow turbo jetta with 700lbs of passengers, two 15" subs, and lots of "crap" in the trunk should not be SCARY fast on only 12psi of boost..


















_Modified by CdnDub at 11:18 PM 2-12-2005_


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

so then why does my car run perfectly fine with this setup? i've been told this "shouldn't" work, but for some reason it does. when i initially setup MSnS i didn't fully understand the trigger concept so i figured why not make it as easy as possible and do it the way that i previously mentioned.
so what i need to do now, is set the trigger angle to ~60 degrees, set the fixed angle to 10 degrees and then get a timing light and turn the distro until i'm showing 10 degrees?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Yeah thats exactly right.. You may be triggering the next tower over with your setup as it is now.. have you had to move your plug wires at all?


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

rrrrgh swapped the stupid hall sensor still no love. 
and that was a bit of a PITA too. 
still have 5v at the hall and good ground. I think there is something up in the ms so i'm going to post pictures of the way my stuff is jumpered etc etc.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_rrrrgh swapped the stupid hall sensor still no love. 
and that was a bit of a PITA too. 
still have 5v at the hall and good ground. I think there is something up in the ms so i'm going to post pictures of the way my stuff is jumpered etc etc. 

please do. this is









CdnDub, i haven't had to mess with my plug wires. i'm as confused as you are.


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## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

i have a question........
installed MSns-extra, and did the temp senors through EZTherm, and now when i start up MT...it says...
MSnS-extra.ini1256: unknown identifier 'const'
terminate MegaTune?
what did i do wrong......what do i need to change


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (wethvento)*

is EZTherm trying to update the code as well, it has built in "old" versions of the MS code. i think there is an option to just upload the sensor values and not the operating code. i'm really as confused as you are at this point. i would just try stepping back and starting from step one.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

BTW, you need to clip jumper between XG1 and XG2 when doing the MSnS mod. i'll update the diagram sooner or later, just wanted this in writing for yalls. sorry bout that.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (wethvento)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wethvento* »_MSnS-extra.ini1256: unknown identifier 'const'
terminate MegaTune?

That's an error in the MSnS-Extra.ini file, if you click no it all works fine. It got fixed in the later versions.


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

Thanks a lot midnight for helpin me figure that out last night. 
If you don't clip that jumper then your energizing the hall input signal whenever the cold start enrichment is on... which is why my trigger light was on all the time. as soon as we snipped that, bingo


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## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

MSnS-extra.ini1256: unknown identifier 'const'
terminate MegaTune?

SO HOW DO I FIX IT?????????


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (wethvento)*

Click NO and continue on your merry way. I think this was fixed in a later version of MT.


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_ but i also dont' have an idle adjust screw (passat 16v auto tb) so i have the throttle plate closed all the way and the large vacuum port used for the charcoal canister left un plugged. 

MY passat TB has a screw so I can crack open the throttle a little bit.


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## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

if i do.....it doesnt get any readings?????the guages are dark pink, and it dont do **** it doesnt even make that beeping noice when u power it up


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (wethvento)*

then it's not getting communication. did you try changing the COM ports in megatune?


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## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

ill just wait for my laptop to come in, and then start it over


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## bunnyluv (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

Hey,
just trying to set-up MSNS for a 16v engine according to this schematic, posted earlier in this thread.








Can someone who's done this before confirm correct jumper connections. Particularly pin 24 and 27 on the db37 connection to board?

















If the jumper connections are correct, I'll try and find a more permanent host for these pics so future vortexers can see the mods on an actual board. 
Thanks...

_Modified by bunnyluv at 4:52 PM 3-7-2005_


_Modified by bunnyluv at 4:53 PM 3-7-2005_


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (bunnyluv)*

looks dandy to me! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and those of you with XG1 - XG2 pre-jumpered, please don't forget to clip that jumper.


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## bunnyluv (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Thanks,
Trying to figure the pins of the db37 female vs male had me in a spin for a minute.
You can't use the stim without xg1 and xg2 jumpered, correct?
I'll save the pics and when uploadpixels.com purges them, I'll find a better host.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (bunnyluv)*

never toyed with the stim, couldn't tell ya...


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Does my setup (MSnS EDIS) need to have the trigger angle set to 60 ???


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (aspro)*

That depends on how your trigger wheel and sensor are mounted. There's detailed instructions for setting this up in the MSnEDIS forum in one of the stickies.


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## bunnyluv (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_here is the optimized spark map that i have come up with. runs smooth as butter.
the reason for the high advance at 500 rpm is make starting easier and to prevent the car from stalling when coming down to idle. and the flat 6 degree spot is my idle area, you may need to move that around depending on what map and rpm you like to idle at. cheers!









_Modified by MidnightGLI at 8:01 PM 2-10-2005_

Are you using MSNS-E, or MSNS? 8X8 ignition map....


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Hi need_a_VR6
My missing tooth currentley passes the VR sensor 90Deg BTDC


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

regular MSNS, upgrading to MSNS-E once i get some EDIS components. if you want to run that at 12x12 you could interpolate it more or just drop it in like it is and the extra values will not be used.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote »_Step C. Trigger disc and VR sensor 
Assuming you have obtained a suitable 36-1 wheel by reference to the Finding EDIS page, you need to establish the correct relationship between the VR sensor and disc. 
There are two methods to visualise the relationship with the same outcome. 
SPECIFIC-ANGLE is defined as follows: EDIS4=90, EDIS6=60, EDIS8=50 
EITHER 
1) Turn your engine to SPECIFIC-ANGLE degrees before TDC (check direction of rotation!). Mount the VR sensor wherever is convenient and mount trigger disc so that the centre of the sensor aligns with the centre of the missing tooth. 
OR 
2) Set your engine at TDC, then put the missing tooth SPECIFIC-ANGLE/10 teeth ahead of the sensor. This will put the centre of a tooth central to the sensor. 
i.e. EDIS4 = 9 teeth, EDIS6 = 6 teeth, EDIS8 = 5 teeth 

Sounds like your spot on, 4 cyl specific angle = 90deg.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

so does this mean i have to have my crank trigger angle in MSnS EDIS set to 60 Deg ??


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (aspro)*

I always thought for EDIS apps the trigger was 0... best checking the sticky on the msefi site.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Thats what i have set, so guess am ok


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Does anyone have a fuel map for an ITB'd 16v, i am realy struggling getting mine running right.
I have use the spark and fuel maps from this thread as a starting point, spark seems ok but the fuel is way rich.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

then lean it out until it starts to pop and backfire then richen it up until the butt dyno tells you that you've peaked out and then stop. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (bunnyluv)*









I've just modded my MS to the above diagram (except i've jumpered JP1-8 straight to pin 24, as I need X12/pin 27 for another output). I've also had to mod the stim to get it to work correctly.
At first I tried jumpering pins 7 and 25 on the stim as mentioned in the MS'n'S setup page, but this still left me with no rpm input on the stim. Looking at the schematics, doing this means that when T1 (on the stim) is active it is shorting the 5V from pin 24 directly to ground, and suprise suprise T1 was getting red hot very quickly








What i've done now is to cut the track from the end of R9 to pin 24, and jumper R9 to pin 25 instead. The jumper from pin 25 to pin 7 is also removed. Stim now works fine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Steve44 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Hey,
Running MSnS-E on 16v with stock dizzy and a GM HEi-4 ignition module wired according to this cause i fried one of the SAAB Dwell units. Ignore the other module in the dotted box.








450cc DSM injectors. Got everything installed, car starts but idle is horrible. Motor heaves real violent like i have my plug wires mixed up, but i checked that numerous times. won't throttle up either. Tried various combos of trigger angle, ignition values, and VE values. Mtune tells me that the revs are fluctuating between 300-800 during idle. I'm wondering if that is false and MS is adjusting the timing (along with various other parameters) when it shouldent be. My lowest bin value in either the ignition table and VE table is 500. Could the false rev reading be from a noisy power source either at the hall sender or anywhere else? Any info/thoughts would be appreciated. 


_Modified by Steve44 at 10:53 AM 3-23-2005_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Steve44)*

Make sure you have a GOOD ground on the HEI module, and make sure you have the wires from the HEI to your coil going the right way. On the coil 1 is tach/coil - and 15 is +12v.


----------



## Steve44 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

checked grounds and sheielded signal wire. Added isolator to MS power source. Runs a little better but is still way out of time. Backfires out the intake.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Steve44)*

sounds like a noisy tach signal... i dont' know much about the HEI method though, my Bosch unit has been working wonderfully. btw, those injectors are huge and may want to make sure they are high impedance and if not use the correct fueling requirements. i'm assuming you haven't run just plain MS with this setup yet? getting those injectors to idle smoothly isn't going to be easy, but it sounds like your issues may not be strictly related to the ignition. this may sound like common sense but also check to make sure you distro cap is on correctly, a buddy installed his 180 degrees off and the car was backfiring out the intake too. the backfire could also be a sign of it being way too rich, which makes sense with those ginormous injectors.


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 11:47 PM 3-26-2005_


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## Steve44 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

They are low impedence but i have the resistor box. Sounds like it has a dead cyl. but i took a timing light to each wire and got a signal, im gonna pull each plug and test that but i expect them to be working.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Steve44)*

have you played around with your PWM settings? once again, have you had the car running on basic MS? if not, i'm going to put my money on a fueling issue.


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## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

I used the 450cc injectors too. I had to get the flyback board and set the PWM to 33% to get them to run right. It makes a world of diferance compared to just using resistors.


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## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (plohip)*

I tried to run some 60lb injectors on 1 bank and could never get it to idle/run right until the motor spun to 2000 RPMS. I dont know if 60lb injectors are <450cc or not and I cant do the conversion right now but anyways.... The PWM was as low as it would go, my fuel pressure was at 35psi, and my max VE table was like 45% at 6000 RPMS. lol. Anyways, didnt work out!


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (CrackerX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrackerX* »_I dont know if 60lb injectors are <450cc or not 

To convert cc / min to lbs. / hr. - Divide by 10.5
60 * 10.5 = ~630cc


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

I've got a quick question. 
If I hook up the ignition in/out according to this diagram (yeah, I know, this pic has been posted a zillion times already







)








It means that IGN IN goes to pin 25. Right-o.
But what if I want to keep my fast-idle? I was hoping to tap off the -ve of LED17 and jumper this to X11, which is pin 25 (ie. so pin 25 drives IGN OUT). 
Instead, could I jumper -ve of LED17 to X13 which is pin 29 of the db37? Just want to make sure my logic isn't messed


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## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

Hey guys, Megasquirt II is out - I've just ordered one.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

regarding using the LED input, i have no idea on that. check the msefi.com forums and see what info you can dig up there regarding that topic http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
MSII rocks, but i'm waiting for UMS.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_But what if I want to keep my fast-idle? I was hoping to tap off the -ve of LED17 and jumper this to X11, which is pin 25 (ie. so pin 25 drives IGN OUT). 
Instead, could I jumper -ve of LED17 to X13 which is pin 29 of the db37? Just want to make sure my logic isn't messed









That would work fine. X11/12/13/14 are all identical free outputs, so you can swap between them as you wish(as long as they're not already in use obviously).
What i've done is jumpered JP1-8 direct to pin 24, so that pin 27 is also freed up for another output.


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (ijcameron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ijcameron* »_Hey guys, Megasquirt II is out - I've just ordered one.

Im ordering one today


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

Will the Megasquirt upgrade work with MSnS EDIS ?


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_
That would work fine. X11/12/13/14 are all identical free outputs, so you can swap between them as you wish(as long as they're not already in use obviously).
What i've done is jumpered JP1-8 direct to pin 24, so that pin 27 is also freed up for another output.

where is the tach hooked up from?


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

Do you mean the tach signal to MS, or the tachometer?
Tach signal goes into pin 25 as per that diagram. The only change I made was to free up pin 27, if you use the ignition module to power the hall sender then you don't need to provide 5V to anything (and even if you did, you could take it off pin 24). I'm using pin 30 (fidle) for tach out Tachometer is fed from coil -ve


----------



## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_
Tach signal goes into pin 25 as per that diagram. The only change I made was to free up pin 27, if you use the ignition module to power the hall sender then you don't need to provide 5V to anything (and even if you did, you could take it off pin 24). I'm using pin 30 (fidle) for tach out Tachometer is fed from coil -ve

This is what I don't get.
Why can't I just put the -ve of the coil going into pin 24 (as per standard MS) and use that as my tach signal? (what am I missing here?)


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_This is what I don't get.
Why can't I just put the -ve of the coil going into pin 24 (as per standard MS) and use that as my tach signal? (what am I missing here?)









Because the ignition timing is variable at coil -ve. MS needs to see a signal that is fixed relative to crank/cam position from which it can base the ignition timing, if MS was using it's own output as an input it would get itself in some nasty feedback loops and the timing would be all over the place.


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_Do you mean the tach signal to MS, or the tachometer?
Tach signal goes into pin 25 as per that diagram. The only change I made was to free up pin 27, if you use the ignition module to power the hall sender then you don't need to provide 5V to anything (and even if you did, you could take it off pin 24). I'm using pin 30 (fidle) for tach out Tachometer is fed from coil -ve

Tach signal to the MS.
I'm running a straight MS in the other car, it's getting from from coil -ve, but isn't that a crappy place to get it from? (have daveCap)


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

When I was running plain MS i took the tach signal direct off the hall sensor, no problems with it at all.


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_When I was running plain MS i took the tach signal direct off the hall sensor, no problems with it at all.

gah







this is what's killing me. Can I just plug it into pin 24 of the MS, or do I need to do all the fancy stuff and plug it into pin 25?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (flanders)*

do you want MS to control ignition as well as fuel or just ignition?
if ignition as well then you need "that fancy stuff"


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_gah







this is what's killing me. Can I just plug it into pin 24 of the MS, or do I need to do all the fancy stuff and plug it into pin 25?

yes, you need to do all of that... it takes like 5 minutes and 3 of those 5 is just waiting for the soldering iron to warm up. just do it.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

If you're running just fuel only all you'll need to do is connect pin 24 to the centre pin on the hall sender.


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_If you're running just fuel only all you'll need to do is connect pin 24 to the centre pin on the hall sender.

isn't the hall sender voltage much higher?
I've got 2 setups, one just fuel and a second that is in the process of going MSnS


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## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

Yes the hall sender voltage Is something around 120 volts... anyways, it is pretty high. 

Because of the high voltage I installed a 3kohm 1/2 watt resistor in the signal wire I had running to the megasquirt tach input. I dont think its necessary though, because when you run the MSnS setup the tach signal is jumpered directly to that wire anyways. 
I hope that makes sense, if it doesnt Ill fix it later. My brain is about to explode from work related things.
Edit: The deal with the resistor was that voltage in parallel is the same, but the current isnt. Since current flows the path of least resistance I wanted to make sure the megasquirt tach input wasnt an appealing path for current to take.


_Modified by CrackerX at 10:36 AM 3-30-2005_


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## Steve44 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

I have used various PWM values (cant remember specific values off the top of my head) and remember no change in condition. I'm going to re-install the knock box ignition and run fuel only. I'm using the HEI method because i melted a Bosch dwell unit from a saab.


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (CrackerX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrackerX* »_Yes the hall sender voltage Is something around 120 volts... anyways, it is pretty high.

Don't you mean 12 volts? If you mean 120V I'll throw my car on the scope to see for myself and post up a scan of it. I am currently useing the 5V supply from MS to power the hall sensor. When I used the 12V supply with a 1k resistor I had random missfires that were about once every 30-240 seconds cruising on the hwy @ 65 mph.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*feeling stupid here...*

Okay just when I think I got it all figured out, I spent another hour looking at these diagrams, and then lost it all...
Here is what I am running, turboed 8V with MsnSe. Need fuel and spark. Can't think of any other details that matter...
First, does the above diagram apply at all to me if I am using LED 17 as spark output? I need the fidle for idle control. I do not comprehend why anyone would jumper JP1-8 to x12. Is there a reason to have this go out of pin 27 on the db37? There is a +5v coming out of pin 26 already... Easy enough to bypass that as several of you guys have done, and take JP1-8 over to pin 24 directly. Okay, WHY does JP1-8 go over to pin 24 anyways? Can't I just bring the signal in from the hall sensor (p2) through the db37 pin 24? Or does pin 24 still need to connect to the coil? And lastly, I do not get the reason to take XG1 out through X11 (or whatever output decided)... This XG1 would be the spark signal out correct? I have the circuit mods for LED 17, so don't I take this directly from the - on 17?
Perhaps my problem is too much Brake-Kleen. I am REALY confused. I have two choices for the ignition modules. It seems to me that the above one is the earlier module and setup. Right now I have been using an early 84GTI rig just to create a signal to my tach (former DIS setup). But I do have the later Digifant setup also... Would it not be simpler to just use the Digifant setup?


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## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

Im talking about the center (green?)wire coming from the hall sender that can be used for the tach signal. I would be curious to know what voltage it actually is but its pretty high on the stock CIS-E Ignition setup. 
When I was probing it expecting to find a low ~12 volt signal I was completely shocked! Literally, lol. 12 volts wont shock you like that... Anyways, I also read on the VW megasquirt yahoo group to use that 1/2 watt 3kohm resistor described above to make sure that the megasquirt unit didnt see any really high currents. The post mentioned that wire carried a high voltage signal, I think it said ~120 volts.

_Modified by CrackerX at 4:22 AM 4-6-2005_


_Modified by CrackerX at 4:22 AM 4-6-2005_


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (CrackerX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrackerX* »_Im talking about the center (green?)wire coming from the hall sender that can be used for the tach signal. I would be curious to know what voltage it actually is but its pretty high on the stock CIS-E Ignition setup. 
When I was probing it expecting to find a low ~12 volt signal I was completely shocked! Literally, lol. 12 volts wont shock you like that... Anyways, I also read on the VW megasquirt yahoo group to use that 1/2 watt 3kohm resistor described above to make sure that the megasquirt unit didnt see any really high currents. The post mentioned that wire carried high voltage on that wire, I think it said ~120 volts.

_Modified by CrackerX at 4:22 AM 4-6-2005_

So it's 12 volts or 120?


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## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

I figured the green center wire was 12 volts but it shocked the crap out of me like a broken spark plug wire. So no, it is not 12 volts. At least not on my stock CIS-E system, or the guys who posted on the VW Yahoo group post. Maybe after you get the megasquirt system hooked up it works at a lower voltage, but I dont know.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

if you are doing MSnS, then get the bosch ign module AND wiring harness from an old CIS car, it will have the resistor and such already inline on the harness.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Anyone Anyone? Heh...*

Okay after sleeping on this some, and a fresh cup of coffee, I think I might have my head wrapped around this.
So the signal that the Bosch ignition module wants to create, is to ground the voltage signal? Reading the diagram posted by CdnDub would lead me to think this.... But elsewhere I see mention of the hall sensor producing high voltages. 
And no mention, that I found anyways, but I take it the jumper from XG1 to XG2 is removed for this?








Sorry to be bugging the heck outa you guys instead of the Megasquirt board. BUT you guys got my same setup and a good common referance. I am ready to start her up as soon as I get the ignition bits worked out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (T3Bunny)*

My diagram works 100%.. 
in fact lately i've been bypassing the +5 feed back to the tach pin externally and soldering a short jumper wire right onto one of the diode legs inside the ECU where it normally comes in, you can then use Pin 24 25 and 30 for Ignition with the hall sensor VW setup.. pin 30 <FIDLE> goes to the origional center wire <green/stripe usually> of the VW ignition module where it expects a signal from the hall sensor.. the hall sensor gets wired directly to megasquirt.. and MS is expecting a ground trigger event not high voltage.. it would end up getting a 0-5V Square wave from the hall sensor as it goes in and out of the windows in the dizzy.. 
I like the 5v feed straight from the ECU, its simple, self contained and hard to screw up a hall by giving it too much current, voltage etc.
I've got 10cars up and running like this now without any issue and will stick to it for any future setups as well.
I'll try to throw together a new diagram and a pic of a board showing how the Hall power stuff works.


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## Steve44 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*

Please do. I would like to have a working model to trouble shoot mine with.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*

Thanks CdnDub!!!
Rawkin... ActuallyI been sitting here wading through all these posts and got a bunch of your comments pasted into a text file along with those diagrams already! 
Confusion still on a few points points. First; do I remove the jumper from XG1 to XG2 I installed when building this? 

_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_MS is expecting a ground trigger event not high voltage.. it would end up getting a 0-5V Square wave from the hall sensor as it goes in and out of the windows in the dizzy..

If my brain is finally working, than this sounds like a yes! Otherwise, this jumper goes to ground and if left in I think it would... erase the signal pulses per say.
Second, is I get the part about feeding the 5v signal out from pin 24 for the hall sensor and not jumpering JP1-8 out through 27 per the first diagram. But the other bit I don't get. 

_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_soldering a short jumper wire right onto one of the diode legs inside the ECU where it normally comes in

So by this you are doing away with the +5v feed from JP1-8 then? 
Okay on mine I will not be using 30 from the MS for spark control. Pin 30 will be idle cointrol. My spark output is going out 25 from the LED 17. So for me pin 25 goes to pin #6 on the Bosch module. And I need to bring #2 from te Hall sensor into my box (via any means avalible...) and then that attaches to XG1. And the jumper from XG1 to XG2 needs to be REMOVED. I would post this in a drawing, but I would make somebody else reading this later even MORE confused than I am/was. Does all this sound kosher? I THINK the lightbulb has finally turned on in me poor brain.
Two more small questions.... Okay I would be supplying the coil with 12V as per the diagram of CdnDub. Its coming from #15 of the ignition switch to #15 0n the coil and also #4 on the ignition module. Why would anyone use a 5v signal to the coil? Wouldn't this cause it to create less spark enregy (need all we can get!)?
And lastly, I hear all this talk of a resistor in the harness and stuff. My rig is ALL custom wired and so there definatly is not such in mine. Am I correct that I do not need this? Since the hall is powered by a 5v from the MS? 
Also, I will forget all that has been said about wire colors due to my custom wiring looms. So the diagram shows ignition module #3 to #1 hall, ign md #5 to #3 hall, and then the last two connections are per my above thoughts. If this is wrong somebody holler at me! And if one of these needs some sort of resistor inline, where would that be?
Thanks guys! I think the lightbulb may no longer be burned out...  Now to see if it will light!


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (T3Bunny)*

The Jumper is defintiely removed between XG1 - XG2, 
XG1 then gets jumpered to X11 yes if you leave XG1-XG2 + XG1-X11 then you wont have any ignition signal..
I'll go take a picture of the D5 diode location I normally solder a jumper wire too or throw one in one of the spare ECU's on my bench so people have a better idea of what i'm talking about.. all it does is negate the need to feed +5 volts back from the X12 output into the hall and 24 pin on the ECU
Looking at this diagram that i posted before








You can use the +5 supply spot thats described at the top of the diagram but instead of soldering a jumper wire to X12, bring the jumper down and solder it to the <left side in this pic> of D5 that will give you +5 volts for the hall sensor and +5 volts that the ECU is looking for on that pin in order for the ignition circuit to work properly
If you are sitting in front of the ECU with the DB37 on the right side, and the DB9 and LED's on the left side <facing up> then the jumper goes from the right side of the ECU socket Jp1-8 <at the bottom right> to the right hand side of the D5 diode <solder right to the leg of the diode, dont try to shove a wire into the same hole as the diode leg.
works like a charm.. if i dont respond enough here feel free to sign up and post at http://www.fireandfuel.ca not a shameless plug for more business for myself but i am used to answering questions about MS there and check those forums all the time..
Your last question about powering the Ignition module and coil.. these have to be 12Volts and require more current than your injectors so make sure you have a good clean power wire going there.. you can even relay it.
Your right.. the hall power is now isolated.. in fact your hall wont be connected at all to the ignition module.. when you are finished you should have 4 wires left on your module harness.. Signal in from MS <the old output wire from the hall sensor>, Normally i wire it so the black wire from the module <power> gets power off the coil like it does from the factory, solid green is the ground trigger for the coil from the module, and then the brown wire needs to go to chassis, engine or battery ground.
And you should be up and running.


_Modified by CdnDub at 1:00 AM 4-7-2005_


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*

CdnDub, the light flickers! 
Okay removing jumper from XG1 to XG2, got it!
But do I HAVE to jumper XG1 then to X11? Or do I just need to get the signal into the box and to XG1? I was thinking to take this under the board from the XG1 hole out to pin 19 on the db37. On mine I cut the traces and removed pins 17, 18, and 19 from the ground plane to use to get extra input/outputs from under the board. I have no relay board setup, so did not see this being an issue. I am already using pin 18 to sneak a map signal out of the box for my Aquamist Mf2. 
I don't care what it looks like under the board, so I will likely get the signal from underneath over to that righthand leg of D5. This would also be the NON-banded end correct? Above the board I actually have nice UV pc board fan sockets installed. This is going to get the "Overclockers Case Mod Treatment" and my lid is getting cut for a window and small laptop fan. All jumpers on top are UV reactive wire, and I will have a cold cathode uv tube inside the case. Should look and run SICK!







Besides, I may need Jp1-8 on top for some other +5v sorce... like traction control or something!


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (T3Bunny)*

No you could just as easily bring XG1 out to pin 19 if you prefer.. its just where MS expects the ignition input now with all the other changes.. 
as long as you can find +5volts to feed to the right side of D5 you should be golden.. that will give you +5 for the ignition circuit on the MS board and +5 volts out on pin 24 you can ground the sensor anywhere you like <i bring mine back to the MS board
and then signal can come in on any pin you want to bring it in on as long as it gets to XG1 and no jumper is installed







sounds like you are on the right track
I'm doing the same thing with my MS board but didnt think of using the unused ground pins to get the extra signals out of the case.. 
I just used an 8pin connector to bring out all of the "MSnSnExtra" inputs and outputs in place of where the middle LED would normally go on my last system
Good luck ..
oh and one last note, be careful how much current you draw off the 5volt power on the MS board.. its not designed to power much other than the FETS' and CPU etc.. a hall sensor is a small load but powering anything else could leave you stranded when things overheat and burn out.


_Modified by CdnDub at 4:33 AM 4-7-2005_


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*

THANKS TONS!!! The lightbulb glows very brighttly now!!!! 
Actualy, if I need another +5v outside of the box, I will probally just use my Aquamist's regulated 5v output. If I need it inside the box, its likely going to be for the traction control stuff (I am getting bored with changing trannies and axles broken by my turbo and the stupid grins made by my BOVs!!!). Thats a bit down the road though. Perhaps for that I will build another regulated 5v power supply. May even just stuff that into another box altogether with the wideband setup I am building. 
And we are hoping the little laptop fan keeps things a bit cooler inside! But its more for the look than anything else. I am going to power it from the 12v raw input and ground it through one of the unused diode holes. My only concern is it causing electrical noise. Would this even be a concern? And is this as easy a fix as to stick a cap across the leads? I don't understand enough about electronics to know if this is even safe or how you go about this... but I seem to remember seeing this used as a fix somewhere. I may just bring in a seperate power source for the fan if thats a better answer.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I just used an 8pin connector to bring out all of the "MSnSnExtra" inputs and outputs in place of where the middle LED would normally go on my last system. Good luck ..

I needed as many free pins as possible. I like to tinker and fiddle with my car. Never can just leave her be! I sold my nice commercial unit as it did not let me fiddle with it. And I basically learned http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif squat from it. I already knew how to wire up friggin relays and all that stuff. 
Actualy, I am thinking of stuffing another db9 underneath the db37 for inputs and outputs. But I realy do not have the right tools to make the hole and make it pretty. I got a custom, black, flanged case from Glen's Garage to match my sick desktop with lots o case moddin! So it gotta look good....


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (T3Bunny)*

I've never had an ECU run hot enought to even consider a fan.. the downside to a fan is that you will need to cut an exhaust hole or you wont have any airflow going anywhere







and will eventually just fill the case up with dust.
The FETS ground to the endplate and with an aluinum case it makes an excellent heat sink.. so i wouldnt worry too much
A DC fan shouldnt create too much noise if you power it from 12V and ground it to the same ground as the ECU..


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*

Yeah, I seem to be the only one who realy likes the fan idea. Its realy more for the "Overclockers Case Mod" look than keeping it cool. I was going to drill some exhaust holes... Well by the time I go through all that trouble, I am thinking itst just not worth it. I will just stick with the clear window in the upper lid and the cold cathode tube light inside. That should look cool enough!


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Martyn_16v,
Hey a question for you, or anyone else who knows.

_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_What i've done now is to cut the track from the end of R9 to pin 24, and jumper R9 to pin 25 instead.

Got the stim sitting here in front of mewith the db37 facing the right and the components facing upwards. When I test it, the left side of R9 is tied to pin 24 and the right side goes directly to 28. Do I cut the track between R9 and T1 on top of the board? Or underneath between T1 and pin 24?
Then I jumper R9 to my input from the Hall (on mine it is pin 19)...


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## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

I can't find my latest diagram but I did scan my hall sensor wire on the scope today. It's a 12V square wave with no spikes. As far as feeling 12 volts goes... I have felt 12 volts from cars before. It depends on how sweaty or wet your hands are. Ahhh, memories of licking 9V batteries come to mind







.









This was at 5 V/Div and 5 ms/Div.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Ah, nevermind... After MUCH staring and cursing And several failed attempts) I finally got it working. You need to cut the trace underneath from T1 to pin 24. Then I jumpered a wire to that side of R9 and over to the pin I am using.
Glad I had "issues" though. I discovered that I had gotten dislexic with my three lower board wires. Instead of using 17, 18, and 19... Well lets just be glad it did not get hooked into the car that way. I also found out that I had the LEDs in the stim for inj 2 and pump in backwards. Now everything is working like it should and I am THRILLED!!!
I can't wait to get it in and fire her up. Should be pretty easy as I got a pretty good map already from thr TEC-2 rig up.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*









Bad pic of a filthy board, but it shows the cut at least. The lower cut is the one you need to make for the rpm, and the short green wire is the jumper to pin 25.
The other mods on that stim are for wideband O2 simulation (with another couple of mods on the top side).


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## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GeoffVR6* »_I can't find my latest diagram but I did scan my hall sensor wire on the scope today. It's a 12V square wave with no spikes. As far as feeling 12 volts goes... I have felt 12 volts from cars before. It depends on how sweaty or wet your hands are. Ahhh, memories of licking 9V batteries come to mind









LOL, this was no small shock! My ignition system was acting up when it was in stock form... I was checking this wire with the car running and i got shocked almost like it was a bad plug wire. I wonder if I was somehow sourcing ground for a bad plug wire.... probably.








Looking at the hall sensor as a seperate component, how the hell could that carry a high voltage signal?! It just isnt in the cards.







I was going by what I read on the yahoo megavag boards. When I got the crap shocked out of me I figured the 3K 1/2 watt resistor was definitly necessary! I dont know why I didnt look at how the system should work until now... I did take plenty of CE classes in college, lol. God forbid I try to use what I learned in college....









Anyways forget what I said about the resistor it has to be BS. Also, be careful when working with your igntion system. Where insulated gloves! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Hey, did you take a pic of mine to post








Hah, looks almost exactly like mine. My mods for getting it on wideband was the first ones I ever made to an "electronics circuit" and I was proud of it! Now I got my own ECU built and running and its fraggin cool! Well I am posting too much and wiring too little. Time to go finish this bad @$$ car up and get ther running!


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

PS, Hey, whats the jumper under the green wire for? Is your wideband signal inverted or something? I did mine differantly...


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_PS, Hey, whats the jumper under the green wire for? Is your wideband signal inverted or something? I did mine differantly...

It shorts out R2, so the O2 pot can swing all the way from 0-5V.
Some better pics and a schematic for the mod here.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

-=stareing at my board=-
Ah, okay. I see that now. I just removed that resistor and stuffed a jumper into the holes. The wire underneath is a bit simpler. You know, you can still safely use a moded stim (the wideband mod) on an ecu thats setup for a narrow band. I was going to make mine a temp mod, and was told that it didn't matter as it does no harm. It just will not read the higher voltages.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Anyone Anyone? Heh... (CdnDub)*

Well guys, she FIRED ON THE SECOND TWIST!!!! The frirst attempt I got no signal as the power wire was on wrong side of coil, if you guys saw my engine bay, you would understand. Very little wiring is original. 
We were not able, and didn't try very hard , to keep her runing. I got all my base maps for fuel and ignition setup. But the ignition configuration itself is another story. CdnDub, you have a config I can get so I can stare at the assorted settings? I have the dizzy lined per normal Dub specs. Basicaly I need to UNDERSTAND all the trigger angle and the rest of the info in the spark settings. Do these Bosch modules need to be set up for dwell control? I got a bunch of stuff like that to figure out...
I think I also saw that it is limiting the current to my injectors via PWM. I have High impedance so I gotta change that. Any pointers would help! I am back to wading through lots o info! By weeks end, she should be purrin and screamin happily!


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

Hi
Can someone with EDIS knowledge check this flash file to see if it is correct.
It is to make visualising the VR sensor position easier.
http://www.bubblemedia.co.uk/u....html
thanks in advance


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

looks perfect.. great use of flash.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I guess it will come in handy for someone else.
BTW have you still got the ITB rabbit, or did it go to another home, also i haven't thanked you for the inspiration to do my 16ver. So a big thanks.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

I sold the rabbit.. basically to two people.. which spawned two nearly identical cars.. one black 84 gti and one white 83 gti <my old shell>
Both have big cams, 8valves and 11:1 and 12:1 compression, one has my head and a 2L bottom end with a g60 manifold, the other has my intake <with ITB's, exhaust and chassis with engine management>.. the guy with the 2L also bought an MS ecu from me and we dyno tuned both cars.
They both ended up within 5hp and 5ft/lbs of torque of each other.. the 1.8l with my ITB's making slightly more power than the 2L with more compression.. 
I moved on to racing a 3cyl 1liter turbo suzuki that was fully prepped for Solo1.. We undertook to upgrade the engine and management and took the car from 60whp and 60ft/lbs at the wheels with the stock turbo and system to what we're guessing will be just under 200ftlbs and 200hp at the wheels.
The dyno sheet we took so far was at the same boost level with the larger turbo and manifolds and we saw double the power at the wheels by 6k.. but the stock injectors were maxing and we had to hold off
Now we have new injectors <465cc/min instead of 265cc/min> and we cant put the power down at 20psi.. the clutch or the wheels slip.. we're working on both issues and will get back to to the dyno.. but everyones butt dyno is reading at least double what we had at 120ish whp..
we're out to prove displacement isnt everything.. its all about power to weight and the use of technology.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

That little rabbit was the spark that lit so many fires, nice to hear it didn't go to waste.
Sounds like your'e having fun with the SOLO1.


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

NICE! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I would like to read and see more on the 3cyl. car!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

well since you guys asked
heres the gallery.. i've got a writeup coming on my main site shortly with the dyno sheets after we get a new spec stage 3 or 4 clutch installed <clutch slips at 20psi so we cant dyno yet>..
we've got 20psi by 4grand now.
Heres the gallery
http://www.plasmabunny.com/gallery/forsa
and no i didnt paint it or pick the colors







i bought it used we'll be painting it a solid or twotone color shortly.
And as far as the GTI goes yeah it went to great hands
now owned by Jared Powell Williams, i think he posts as JPW here occasionally.. its become a full on Solo2 car racing in C-mod which is what i built it for.. its been reliable as far as i know as well other than eating clutches and tires lol.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_That little rabbit was the spark that lit so many fires 

Rabbits are the BEST!!! I started my rekindaling of Dub Lub about 7-8 yrs ago when I bought my wife an '84 GTI. My first car was an old Beetle, sadly I only got to drive it once. Within monthe I had dropped 2k on suspensoin goodies (H&R's RAWK!!!) and was hooked. About two years ago we had to scrap my old bunny. BUT not before I pulled the motor and lots of other parts. That motor had 350k on it and I had NEVER taken even the head off. It was PERFECT inside! In fact, its pistons and a bunch of other parts are now recycled into my 91 Cabby.
AND SHE RUNS!!! She is ideling and reving pretty nicely now. Starts with a key twist. Soon we will be getting her out on the road for some real tuning. But just moving her around on the lot with untuned mapps.... OMG does she have some POWER now!!!


----------



## juki (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I'm looking for 12x12 sparktable for 8 valve engine.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (juki)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juki* »_I'm looking for 12x12 sparktable for 8 valve engine.

just fill in the gaps...

_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_2.0 8v map on yahoo groups should be a great start
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/...91113
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0...p.xls


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_just fill in the gaps...

Don't even need to do that any more, the newest versions of Megatune will convert an 8x8 map into 12x12 for you


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

pimptastic http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## juki (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_
just fill in the gaps...
Quote, originally posted by MidnightGLI » 
2.0 8v map on yahoo groups should be a great start
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/...91113
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0...p.xls 


Thanks!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I don't know. I think it looks GOOD in those funky colors! You should'nt have trouble picking it out of the pack at the track! Okay, the burning question, WHY build up a three cylinder like that?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

To prove another point.. kinda like i proved 12:1 runs happily on pump gas and you dont need $2-3k to do ITB's with my old white GTI








this time the point is
you dont need displacement to go fast enough to make you soil yourself. and with technology it can be reliable.
We're about to eclipse the 200hp/liter mark with only 3 little 74mm cylinders.. its a 993cm3 motor.. less than 1liter..
I'm waiting for a VW N75 valve to do the electronic boost control <its shipping> and the water injection parts just arrived
Next up is a clutch.. have to order a spec cause the stock one lets go around 160ft/lbs <its 190mm> and its slipping like buttah in 3rd now.
I'm in love with underdogs.. there aint nothing that says i'm out here walking my pink fluffy poodle like racing a Turbo 3cylinder 1liter.. everyone looks.. some laughed at me.. and now it just makes people sad.. it eats up 5liters like they stand still.. 911's arent a problem lol


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_it eats up 5liters like they stand still.. 911's arent a problem lol

HAHA! Thats AWSOME. Next project, a Yugo! I saw this Yugo in Virginia, it was SICK... Bodykitted, spoiler, low-pro tires, turbo, etc etc... Another car that will win the pink slips. It also had YUGO in BIG BIG letters in the back window, just to be SURE you knew what knocked your socks off! Yeah, I understand the Underdog bit. Probally has something to do with me tweaking a VW Digifart Cabby. 


_Modified by T3Bunny at 9:44 AM 4-21-2005_


----------



## DutchJetta (Jan 29, 2003)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Which version is that exactly that converts an 8X8 .VEX into a 12X12?
I'm using 2.25beta271 because it works well with the extra code.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (DutchJetta)*

I don't know exactly when it came in but 2.25b447 definitely does it. You should be OK using the latest versions of Megatune, as long as you make sure it is referencing the correct version of msns-extra.ini for your firmware.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (DutchJetta)*

I just loaded up a new code and MT 462. It converted mine from I think 12x12 up to 16x16. Did it automaticaly also! 
Hey, CdnDub or anyone... SILLY question. Got her all running and all but confused on a few points here. The spark setup for this rig is via the above posted By CdnDub. Is this an INVERTED spark? Seems like it would be considered thusly... Mine will idle okay after warm, but the engine is just not sitting on its sweet spot right. Almost sounds like the timing is goofy or overadvanced.
Okay for the NEXT question... The info on setup is confusing as hell. I did what the monkey said to do. I set mine at 10 degrees in MegaTune for setting the timing up. I had a goofy trim angle of 51 when I got it zeroed out. 
Now reading other info, I am told I set it to whatever I want my base timing set to. Instead of 10 degrees I set it to 6 degrees, then my dial in light set at 0, I read it off the six degree mark on the flywheel??? Okay, for me I like my dial in gun, so in this case, set it to 0 in MT, read the 0 on flywheel (my NORMAL procedure as its nicely marked in white) and dial the gun in to 6 degrees???







substitute the wall with my timing light...
Crap, now I am even MORE confused than I was before I started all this... I need to get this damn thing all zeroed in. I am thinking its a timing issue here. I can not remember if I did the SMART thing and checked the timing after finishing setup to confirm the reading on the MT gauge represented the actual timing on the motor. It would have been the logical thing to do. That should answer all the above except for the inverted or normal spark output bit...


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (juki)*

Sorry Juki! I thought you wanted something else there... You want my sparktable... Um as you can see by the above post, I do NOT have mine where it needs to be yet to toss that one out there comfortably. I am pretty fair at spark timing setup (after the MS gets configured correctly) and have a SUPER FINE ear for knock (drove tweaked out Fiat for YEARS). I actually did not use anyones map and built mine from the ground up. I also have a T3 turbo hanging off the back. And even before the MegaTune gauges, I have TONS of gauges and assorted info coming in. I would NOT recomend doing it this way unless you know what you are up to. My spark map IS NOT a safe map. I was worried about running and all first. 
I am actually half tempted to toss a CIS box and injectors in and tune spark up first, then pull out for fuel setup... Other way around would be a LOT easier though. Use a stock dizzy with centrifigal advance and tune fuel while locking open the wastegate on the turbo. Then get the spark all sorted out.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re:*

I just read that they recommend that the ignitor and coil be wired through the Fuel Pump relay, has one had problems with them getting hot or overheating?
Or does VW wire them up that way and that's why there is a heatsink?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

no need to, VW does that from factory. just tap into the factory fuel pump relay for MS and thats it.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_no need to, VW does that from factory. just tap into the factory fuel pump relay for MS and thats it.

So I still need to run the coil +ve and ignitor power through the VW FP relay?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

Just leave it as VW did it. Unless you don't have the stock setup anymore...
Hey Midnight... How do you disable the damn rpm sense on the VW fp relays? Mine is hooked up to the MS ecu fp control via the same wire that was fed out from my original digifart ECU. But it runs all the time when its in run. I think I swapped in a differant FP relay... the stock one kinda worked, till you turned it off with the car running. It wouldn't shut down. Everything worked fine before the two aftermarket fuel systems... Well as "fine: as a Digifart ever will!
Mine has been WRONG like this for two years now. Now its starting to annoy me cause I got a nice sound system in there now (for while driving around the track of course!)......


----------



## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (OttawaG60) (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Hey Midnight... How do you disable the damn rpm sense on the VW fp relays? Mine is hooked up to the MS ecu fp control via the same wire that was fed out from my original digifart ECU. But it runs all the time when its in run. I think I swapped in a differant FP relay... the stock one kinda worked, till you turned it off with the car running. It wouldn't shut down. Everything worked fine before the two aftermarket fuel systems... Well as "fine: as a Digifart ever will!
Mine has been WRONG like this for two years now. Now its starting to annoy me cause I got a nice sound system in there now (for while driving around the track of course!)......

I disabled mine on my '92 by replacing the FP relay with a standard 4-pin SPST Bosch relay.. It also runs with the key in RUN position, but no fp cutout anymore.. and in my situation, if the key is in the run position, then the car is running.. otherwise, i never sit with it in that position. (or is that what you just said?







)


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (OttawaG60) (qwikxr)*

Mostly.. LOL. I had to use some other non descript FP relay on mine as the fp contacts were big like the x-relay contacts. I have ISSUES with German electrinics... I want the sheet to work RIGHT








If you give full control over to the MS, it will ONLY run the FP when the engine is on. But my issue is determination to get it talking to a factory relay that way. I think I will most likely remove the FP relay turn on wire and wire in another fp replay or something. Crap, all I realy need to do is just wire my pump up directly into the relat in my engine bay and be done with it... Leavt the factory relay in to control whatever it thinks it still controls...









Heh, speaking of issues with German electronics, My GT is PISSIN me off right now... (still a cis car, not YET squirted). It keeps dropping voltage to the fuel pump randomly and then runns like a sick dog. Easy fix, wire a switch to the fp and wire fp up directly to battery. But NO, I have to find the problem in my 17 yr old cars electrical system...










_Modified by T3Bunny at 12:04 PM 5-9-2005_


----------



## DutchJetta (Jan 29, 2003)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

16X16?







That would be awesome. Which code is that?? 
Thanks.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (DutchJetta)*

i had CIS-motronic so i just tapped right into the fuel pump wire coming from the back of the fuse box.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Does yours turn on and off via the MS? IE, turns on and runs for two seconds, then if car isn't running it shuts off. Or if the car stalls (it IS short shifted!) it turns off the pump?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_we're out to prove displacement isnt everything.. its all about power to weight and the use of technology.

Yeah, on that note, I want a GTM Libra. These are English build it yourself beasties. They weigh in at abour 1400lbs. Yeah, your reading that right. They are small enclosed coupe cars (they also have a convetable, don't need that though as I got my Bunny!). With an enging putting out a flywheel hp of 220hp, they are capable of a 0-60 in 3.7 seconds! Anyone want to venture the capabilities of one of these with an even better motor? I want to stuff some VW plant into mine. I might even take a small weight increase for a VR6 in there (twin turbos OF COURSE! We gotta make up for the extra weight of the VR6







)
http://www.gtmcars.com/
Besides, perhaps building it from the ground up would cure me of the need to mod...


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

the relay is controlled by Megasquirt


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Okay... weird. On the Digifart it must be hooked in to something else powering it up then. I officially give up and will just run a wire from my other relpy up in the raintray and have the MS turn that one on, ten power the pump that way...
I used the wire in the raintray that went to the VW ECU for the fp relay control. You would THINK that using same for the MS would work... It didn't work for the MS or my old TEC-2.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Mine works exactly as it should, and that's with ms connected up to the standard digi fp relay. Your other option would be to get a CIS rpm sensing relay and trigger it off coil -ve
If you're running ms'n's as per MidnightGLI's diagram you _need_ to power the module from ignition live, *not* the fp relay. The hall sender needs power to provide ms a tach signal to turn on the fp relay, if the hall relies on fp power then it's never going to turn on.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

I am running MsnSe per a modified diagram like the ones posted by Midnight and CdnDub. As for spark anf the fp relay, I am using a setup I have used for over two years with this and my old TEC-2. I just finally got tired of the fp running all the time the ignition is on. I had the digi relay in there and tossed some other relay into the box. It was likely a cis one. With the digi relay, the car did not want to turn off after the key was removed. Hmmmm... I wonder if my Pops swapped relays with my car from his CIS. He was trying to find an issue...


----------



## MK2Fanatic (Apr 1, 2005)

more info needed on the megastim mods


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

Perhaps, with the help of some fellow MSnSers, we can make it easier for people to get their MSnS running.
I'd like to take the 16v as the example. If the cam timing is factory, then we all should have the exhaust cam and thus the distributor at the same place.
So, we should be able to say "set dist to mark X, set Trigger angle to Y, fixed angle to 10 deg, start car"
Might help to take some of the confusion out of the 9 steps listed below.
_
Setup - Hall sensor 
1) Set the crank at TDC 
2) Rotate the distributor (opposite direction) just until middle LED turns OFF (sets the crank angle) 
3) Make sure the rotor arm points towards the correct contact in the distributor cap 
4) Fix the distributor 
5) Turn engine backwards until middle LED turns ON (should be almost immediately) and continue turning until it turns OFF again 
6) Measure angle BTDC (+/- 10 degrees is good enough) at the crank 
7) Enter measured angle in "Trigger angle" 
8) Enter "Fixed angle" to 10 degrees 
9) Start the engine 
10) Adjust "Trigger angle" until the timing light is at 10 degrees 
11) Set "Fixed angle" to -10 
12) Start tuning 
_
*Anyone car to toss their 2 cents in based on running setups?
1) Dist alignment
2) Trigger angle*


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

Trigger angle on my 16v KR is 70 deg
EDIT: except it's not a KR, it's a 9A with KR head/cams










_Modified by martyn_16v at 3:49 PM 5-23-2005_


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

I've got a 9A, I'm running 62 deg


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

72 degrees here - I verified it with a timing light. This is on a Hall sensor distributor from a 1984 GTi. The same distributor was used on all 8V engines from 1980 - late 80s/early 90s IIRC.


_Modified by ijcameron at 7:47 PM 5-23-2005_


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

The hall window sizes are going to be the same for all dizzies of the same type, but your actual trigger angle is going to vary depending on how your dizzy is oriented. I imagine most people have them lined up so that the return edge is at TDC, but seeing as most people will have done it by eye there's always going to be a few deg variance.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_The hall window sizes are going to be the same for all dizzies of the same type, but your actual trigger angle is going to vary depending on how your dizzy is oriented. I imagine most people have them lined up so that the return edge is at TDC, but seeing as most people will have done it by eye there's always going to be a few deg variance.

I'm trying to help to standardize it a little.
If we had a set of instructions saying "for motors Q, set dist to mark X, set your trigger angle to Y, start car" it would help to take some of the confusion out of MSnS setup.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

In step 8 on previous page, you do not have to put in 10 degrees. If you set it for say 6 degrees, then you can use the mark many of the older dubs have on the flywheel. This worked for mine. I also verified everything after sticking it back onto the map by stuffing a feeler gauge between the throttle stop and opened it up so I was running a steady 13 degrees on my map and in Megatune. Then I checked it with my dial back and the zero mark. DEAD ON! 
Verify, check reverify. IF you use a dial back check it twice and then check again. Use your zero mark. Many setup issues come from using the wrong mark and incorrect use of the dial back lights. If you NOT using a dial back, set it to run at 6degrees and use the six degree mark on flywheel.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I'm running the MSnS on a Corrado, 6 degree mark still there?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

It SHOULD be. Grab a look in your shop manual. Its slightly to the right on your zero mark on the flywheel. Every flywheel I have looked at has it... But I mainly play with pre 1990 cars.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Ok, last night I reverified my timing.
I set the fixed angle to 10, and set the timing gun to 10 degrees advance.
That's correct?
Yes there is a 6 deg timing and a TDC mark.
I was off by a few degrees as I was using the 6 degree mark and an old timing gun.
When I was playing around with the trigger angle, at one point the timing gun was 26 degrees advanced, car ran quite smoothly, any thoughts?
Car is running poorly when I get on the throttle, sounds like an old beetle.


_Modified by OttawaG60 at 8:03 AM 5-27-2005_


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

I have seen cars run at ~25* advanced smoothly on regular CIS, but they pinged and ran like crap on the street... they just idled ok.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (CrackerX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrackerX* »_I have seen cars run at ~25* advanced smoothly on regular CIS, but they pinged and ran like crap on the street... they just idled ok.

Mine's idling ok, idles smoother with 26 deg of advance, runs like crap on the street no matter what the timing is


----------



## Simplistic87Scirocco (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

just reset the timing on my Corrado,
i know this is MSnS thread, but timing mark wise the 6 degree mark is on the flywheel. previous owner had the thing set way too far advanced... ran ok but idle was tweeked to cover up the advance. set it to the stock 6 degree with the blue coolant temp sensor plug disconnected. readjust the idle screw on the mani, then maybe tune using the MSnS software.
you may also have the cams off a tooth in relation to the crank..?.
I keep tabs on this thread since I'll be doing a Lysholmed 2.0L16V MSnS swap into my Caddy soon.... hope I helped.


_Modified by Simplistic87Scirocco at 10:38 AM 5-27-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

VERY simple. Set your gun to zero. Set it to six degrees in the MS. Follow the steps for trigger setup. VW's are usaly very close to the default of 60 degrees in the software for the trigger angle. Line up your six degree mark. You line up the six degree mark by moving the trigger angle.
IF you can even SEE the dot or Zero for the 0degree mark, you can set it for 10 degrees in the ms and set your gun at 10 degrees. 
After you go back to your map and unset it from ten or six degrees, triple check it to make sure your readings in MT correspond to the zero mark and your gun setting. You need to be careful using a dial back gun, They can even confuse professional techs, especialy since they realy don't get used that often. 
For instance, lets say you are checking your setup. MT is saying your sitting at ten degrees (on the gauge). You can'y see the 0 mark so your using the six degree mark. Your gun lines up at 4 degrees. You have to then add the six dergres back in to get your actual advance of ten degrees. 
This is why whenever I replace a vw clutch, I blast the flywheel and paint black. Then we carefully mark and paint the 0 with white paint so it shows up easily.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*MS-II*

Is anyone else running MS-II ?
I was running MSnS-extra on a previous board, I now have an MS-II daughter board. 
Unfortunately/fortunately I think a lot of things are different for MS-II:
*Dwell is now handled by the MS-II processor, hence I need a new Bosch ignition module
*The jumper wires on the main board are different.
I'm going to read through the documentation today (it's raining again - yaay), but if anyone can give me some free advice - post up!
I will do a full write-up when I get this installation complete.
Thanks, Iain

_Modified by ijcameron at 6:08 AM 5-29-2005_


_Modified by ijcameron at 6:11 AM 5-29-2005_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: MS-II (ijcameron)*

Dwell is handled by the MS-II cpu as well as there is now a high current driver onboard with the V3 PCB's coming out shortly.. there is no longer a need to even run a VW module any longer. just hook the ECU right to the coil , set the dwell, feed the hall sensor to the ECU and you are finished.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: MS-II (CdnDub)*

Solved my problem with running rough, one injector was unplugged.
Here are my initial tables, anyone see anything that might need changing or is flawed?
2L 16vG60
Spark








Fuel


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: MS-II (OttawaG60)*

Yeah, the first perhapos three rpm bins on yours need to have the advance and ve the same. As your car idles, it will be hunting between these, if they are the same it will hold a steady idle. But changing them like that you will never get the idle smooth. You could probally swing one of those bins elsewhere and just use say the 300 and 1500 rpm bins. No need to waste one on an rpm thats going to be the same in the middle of those.
I could be wrong on the advance bit though. I saw somewhere about setting up a "valley: to keep it at the idle you want. But your ve table needs to be steady in the "idle corner."


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: MS-II (OttawaG60)*

Ottawa, hey slightly off topic here... But how did you trunk mount your battery? I relocated mine back there also, right now it held in place by stuff stuffed in te trunk... NOT very secure. Did you put yours in a box? I have the enclosed cabby trunk, but is that safe enough after it gets locked down? Or does it need its own enclosed box???
Beleive it or not with all the friggin tweaked cars I have built, this is the first time I have moved the battery!


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: MS-II (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Yeah, the first perhapos three rpm bins on yours need to have the advance and ve the same. As your car idles, it will be hunting between these, if they are the same it will hold a steady idle. But changing them like that you will never get the idle smooth. You could probally swing one of those bins elsewhere and just use say the 300 and 1500 rpm bins. No need to waste one on an rpm thats going to be the same in the middle of those.


300 is 30?
I'll look into lining them up, although I don't think I'm having idling problems though.

_Quote »_
I could be wrong on the advance bit though. I saw somewhere about setting up a "valley: to keep it at the idle you want. But your ve table needs to be steady in the "idle corner."

I think the higher advance at 500 is to help when the idle dips.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: MS-II (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Ottawa, hey slightly off topic here... But how did you trunk mount your battery? I relocated mine back there also, right now it held in place by stuff stuffed in te trunk... NOT very secure. Did you put yours in a box? I have the enclosed cabby trunk, but is that safe enough after it gets locked down? Or does it need its own enclosed box???
Beleive it or not with all the friggin tweaked cars I have built, this is the first time I have moved the battery!

Mine's a sealed battery so I don't need a box, however, it just made it easier to mount it back there. Box is mounted to trunk floor.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*ignition suitablility*

Does anyone know what is a hotter ignition better set up for turbo, the ford EDIS or using the factory distributor, ignightor and single coil??
I am using this for a turbo project.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

also are there any downsides to the edis? I've heard no revlimiter (or is there a fuel rev limiter in MS that doesn't use the last fuel column?) because the base timing setting is 10 degrees?
Thanks for any info,
PS, there isn't anyone in new england with a working setup that would be able to share information in exchange for some good beer?


_Modified by VW_NUT at 11:52 AM 6-1-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: MS-II (OttawaG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OttawaG60* »_
300 is 30?......I think the higher advance at 500 is to help when the idle dips.

No, 300rpm to 1500rpm. 300=300... Hum, I think the idea on the advance valley is worth a tryout on mine! If using that valley, then I guess the 300bin is still needed. 
OH, my bad... I said 300rpm, your using 500rpm. Thats where the confusion came from. Stick with what you got, especially if its working smoothly!


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

you can only fuel cut when using EDIS.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (aspro)*

Translation: *DO NOT USE EDIS FOA A TURBO SETUP*
You want to only cut spark on a turbo....


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

what is wrong with fuel cut only on turbo? 
If no fuel is injected, then no combustions happens so its not like you will get detonation. 
Thats how my sds worked. Fuel cut only as a revlimiter. I was always banging it off the limiter & it never hurt anything. 
Now if for some reason it doesn't completely cut fuel that would be a different story.
I fear that the stock ignightor isn't going to be up to the task of hight boost.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

I think he actually meant you only want to fuel cut on a turbo.. 
cutting spark aka retarding the timing to halt acceleration.. has an undesired effect on a turbo car.. the unburrnt fuel hits the red hot turbine blades and ignites.. spooling the turbo up even more.
a VERY lean condition can quickly develop and blow things to bits.. 
We use a hard fuel cut for both overboost protection and revlimiting for missed shift etc on our turbo racer. And we use EDIS-6 on a 3cyl with it.. It doesnt matter to me at all that i cant cut the ignition to zero.
I'm sure there is an ingenious way to cut ignition completely if you wired up a relay to a spare output with an RPM point selected you could wire it in front of the power to the EDIS module.. when it hit that rpm it would trigger the relay and shut down edis =P
rpm would drop relay would close and EDIS would fire up again.
not very elegant but functional if that was truely a requirement.


_Modified by CdnDub at 3:33 PM 6-7-2005_


----------



## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_cutting spark aka retarding the timing to halt acceleration.. has an undesired effect on a turbo car.. the unburrnt fuel hits the red hot turbine blades and ignites.. spooling the turbo up even more.
a VERY lean condition can quickly develop and blow things to bits.. 


Inadvertant "Anti-Lag" with possible catastrophic results..


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

ok, so back to my original question about Edis being up to the task of high boost? 
Anyone got any concerns or experience with it?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

UM, IGNORE me. I was of the thought, that for safety, you only cut fuel on a turbo. Well several of my tuning freinds told me differantly...
I am THINKING its because the MS only partialy cuts fuel... But this would need verification, For safety, I have it cutting both on mine. Although for the time its a moot point as I am not tuning boost maps yet.
If Dave says its cool, its COOL. Go for it! He has forgoten more than most of us will ever know...


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Megasquirt II Question:
I'm using a Hall sensor ignition for now. - the ignition input goes to pin #24, but the ignition output can go to any of the following:
X11 >>>db37 pin #25
x12>>>pin#27
X13>>>pin#29
X14>>>pin#31

Are any of these in use at the moment? I've been using pin#25 for my MSnS, I guess this would be the easiest one to swap out since it already has a long run of wire in the engine bay. 


_Modified by ijcameron at 9:07 PM 6-7-2005_


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

MSII is still a mystery to most of us i imagine. might want to run that question by the cats at http://www.msefi.com http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

I'd just continue running it to pin 25 and leave it at that.. use X11 and 24
keep things simple.. you can use any of the outputs for whatever you want, i belive if you were doing idle stepper control it uses the 4 outputs for that but you could always just cut another hole in the case and run an extra plug outside if you need more wires or outputs.
And about the fuel cut, there was a good long discussion on the MS list about this a while ago <i was concerned too> 
MS will cut fuel completely if you tell it to..no lean condition. 
Verified this with my Fuel cut and the EGT probe.. it goes cold as soon as we hit the boost limiter if things were burning in the turbo it would just get hotter.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

true, but MSII uses a different wiring schematic for spark control. you must use an HEI unit or NON-DWELL controlling Bosch unit and with both of these options, the wiring is different than the current MSnS... main reason i have chosen NOT to upgrade yet.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Midnight, my UNDERSTANDING of MSII is that it actualy does away with all that. You actualy don't need any of the modules as it has the circuit inside that REPLACES the module compleatly. There was a question recently posted on the MS board specifically about MS-II and VW's in correlation to "What Bosch module do I use" and this was the answer. NONE. 
Now I have not studied MS-II much, as right now it will not suit my needs. This is a post I happened upon so you guys should definatly give it a closer look. If I see the post I will link it back here. I think the answer came from Lance himself. 
A question to toss out here that may answer some of my weird problems. I have one of the Telefunken (sumtin like that) modules from A digifant car. Do these have dwell control or was that a function of the Digifart itself? I keep fouling plugs biggtime, and getting crappy spark issues. I have the MS code set for letting the module perform dwell control. 
I can swap in a Fairchild module from my old GTI if this is the case... Easier than setting up dwell control in my extra most likely. If anyone can shed some light on this, I can post some more info about my settings and all that.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Midnight, my UNDERSTANDING of MSII is that it actualy does away with all that. You actualy don't need any of the modules as it has the circuit inside that REPLACES the module compleatly. There was a question recently posted on the MS board specifically about MS-II and VW's in correlation to "What Bosch module do I use" and this was the answer. NONE.

Nope, not right now. You need the Version 3.0 board to do away with the Bosch spark module unit. MS II as it stands right now requires the Bosch spark module - check the MSII documentation.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

How many of you guys are doing VR6 MSnS? I just fired one up tonight and was curious.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

I've sold 3 kits to guys with VR's.. two EDIS <one a turbo quattro project in a corrado>, and one fuel only system.
Seems to work really well.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_A question to toss out here that may answer some of my weird problems. I have one of the Telefunken (sumtin like that) modules from A digifant car. Do these have dwell control or was that a function of the Digifart itself? I keep fouling plugs biggtime, and getting crappy spark issues. I have the MS code set for letting the module perform dwell control.

The Telefunken modules do perform dwell control. They're used over here in the carbed mk2's with just a hall sender and vacuum/mech advance dizzy, no other control boxes. Same part is also on the CIS 8/16v and the digi2 8v.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Yep, mine was the otiginal one. I HAD a digi-2 Cabby till I tossed the digifart for my old TEC-2. Hated the Tec, LOVE, LOVE the MegaSquirt!

_Quote, originally posted by *jsmcortina
MegaSquirt Guru* »_Just turn dwell control on and try it. 
A smart dwell module will likely work ok with or without dwell control. 
You will usually know if you have a non-smart-dwell module because it will run really hot unless you enable dwell control in the code. 
James

That summs it up nicely for us! (posted on the ms board)


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

yes V.3 board is required. as for your digifant ign module, it SHOULD control dwell AFAIK, so it seems you have other tuning issues.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Yeah, we got some tuning issues.... Its a barley broken in engine and its very far from stock... Right now its definatly running too much fuel, not enough start cranking pulswidth, and has idle issues. 
Like it will not idle... But I have ideas to pursue on it. We are using an auxillary air valve right now and likely going to switch over tp PWM idle control via a bosch/digi idle air valve. I need to increase idle timing, and drop air fuel there. It actually idled warm nicely, before we added the valve.
I FINALLY have a laptop I can use in sunlight and at night for tuning. I had been limited to cloudy days and evenings. So we will be getting back out there soon as I load my Toughbook up!


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re:*

Anyone have problems with tach drop out?
I'm running MSnS -E (021u3) and I'm seeing the tach drop, both in the MS and the cluster.
I suspect it's not code related as I just started seeing the problem.
I did swap my dizzy as the old one leaked.
Anyone see this problem? Or anyone know of what might be causing it?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

Pretty sure there were tach drop problems around that rev, might want to switch to a newer version of the code.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I was seeing the same issue on a Honda Racecar i was helping with a few weeks ago.. we havnt been back to the dyno yet to see if his replacing the coil, dizzy guts <ignitor> and a few other parts helped.. he was running fuel only with 021u3.. which is supposed to be considered stable.
I dont see how you could get tach dropout with code both on the tach itself and the MS ECU just from software if you are running fuel only. but anythings possible.


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (CdnDub)*

I'm running MSnS -E, not fuel only


----------



## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

guys if I am using MS as a fuel controller only is this the right way to connect it to hall sender
1-Tee hall sender signal to pin25
2-X11-XG1
3-jumper D8
4-jumper X12-JP1-8
5-remove jumper btn XG1-XG2
what hapens to pin24?
what did I miss
regards
Nabil


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Re: (nabilsx)*

Pin 24 actualy becomes the power out for the hall sensor.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Pin 24 actualy becomes the power out for the hall sensor. 

actually pin 24 powers the ignition circuit on the ms board, it can be optionally tapped off of to also power the hall sender, but that is not it's intended purpose.
*edit* just re-read the original question, if you are running FUEL ONLY then all those jumpers (except D8) are unnecessary and you are in the wrong thread, you are confusing MSnS with just MS.


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 6:41 PM 6-14-2005_


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Anyone experience a hardware tach drop out?
I put in a new dizzy, since the old one was leaking and now I'm getting tach drop outs, seemingly at random.
It's like someone just pulled the power, tach in cluster drops, and I see it in the MS datalogs.
I've tried both 021u3 and 024s9, happens on both, which is leading me to believe it's dizzy related.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

bad coil possibly?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

Are your datalogs revealing anything? Check all your connections and grounds. Dropouts were an issue on the Dubs, hence the nice scheme figured out by some of the masters here like Dave! I don't think any of us set up this way have had issues. Mine puurs like a kitten!


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Are your datalogs revealing anything? Check all your connections and grounds. Dropouts were an issue on the Dubs, hence the nice scheme figured out by some of the masters here like Dave! I don't think any of us set up this way have had issues. Mine puurs like a kitten!

datalogs, not really, seems to happen on decel, but I can't repeat it on command.
Sometimes my TPS will show zero and my WB will show 5v.
I'll check the wiring, I was messing with engine bay while installing the starter and I did change the dizzy.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

IT sounds like you may have a ground issue with the ECU itself.. or with the main ground to the motor
a bad ground on the block will lead to some funky ignition issues in software/hardware <tach dropouts, voltage spikes
When that coil fires and dumps the energy into the plug wire, those plugs complete the circuit throught he block and back to the battery.. if there is no other way to get to the batt they will take whatever ground path is available.
I wouldnt suspect software at this point it sounds like a ground issue or a bad hall sensor
Why did you have to change the starter?? did it burn out? could be another symptom of a bad engine ground situation


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (CdnDub)*

My starter was pooched, it's been dying a slow death since 2003.
It was overcranked when I was trying to setup the SDS 2 years ago.
Grounds, don't think I have a grounding issue, I have a battery to chassis ground that is 1 gauge and chassis to engine ground that is 1 gauge.
I have the battery mounted in the trunk and the Relay Board is on the outside of the battery box, so grounds from Relay to battery are short and new.
This problem wasn't happening before I changed the dizzy.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

points towards a bad hall sensor then.. or a partial break in the cables between the hall plug and the module or ECU.
Grounds are just easy to overlook but it sounds like you've got that angle really well covered.
If thats all you changed it would be my first suspect. What was the old one doing? more of the same?


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_points towards a bad hall sensor then.. or a partial break in the cables between the hall plug and the module or ECU.


That's what I've been thinking, just wondering what else other MSnSers have had problems with

_Quote »_
Grounds are just easy to overlook but it sounds like you've got that angle really well covered.


VW #4 for me, I know all about VW grounds









_Quote »_
If thats all you changed it would be my first suspect. What was the old one doing? more of the same?


Oil one was pissing oil. Since I was parting out my Golf, and it's dizzy was newish, I decided to swap it in.
This problem appeared after I installed the new dizzy, starter and alternator.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OttawaG60* »_VW #4 for me, I know all about VW grounds









WHAT, ONLY 4!? Come on you gotta catch up man! Crap, it would take me 4 minutes just to count all the ones I have had


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (T3Bunny)*

Hahaha, well I did sell my second one when I went back to school...
I've had the C since 99, just got rid of the 16v GTI


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (OttawaG60)*

Stupid question, the ignition timing gauge isn't working on MT, but displays in the ignition timing tuning page.. what the heck is wrong? (Extra code and MT2.25bXXX)


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Re: (need_a_VR6)*

It kinda sounds like you may have broken you MsnSe .ini... Try recopying the correct extra code ini into you car .mtcfg folder. Were you poking around in there? Even so, try it and see if that helps. Otherwise, ask on the MsnSe forum on the MS board.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (T3Bunny)*

Nah *I* haven't played around in there at all.. but who knows if someone else did. Thanks, I'll poke around in there a bit, didn't know where to look.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Easiest solution is to just stu
ff a new copy of your ini into the folder. When I have goofy issues like this I will remove the suspect and pop a new on into it. If you do not have an original, go get the extra zip file for it from the ms site. 
You could also set them side by side and go through and compare them, but the one likely messed up is the realy long one...


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_<one a turbo quattro project in a corrado>

THATS DISTURBED! WOW, I just processed that one...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Figured out the problem, the gauge was working but was pegged to 80deg due to a bug in 021u4. Strange but true. If I ran a locked timing value it would display and work, if I put in -10 to run off the map it would display 80 and run about -20deg. Put in -9.5 and everything worked as planned.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Oh yeah... THATS the obnoxious code!


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Has anyone running EDIS been suffering from tach dropout since 024s9 ???


----------



## hasnfefr (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hasnfefr (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*


----------



## hasnfefr (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (hasnfefr)*

well since this thread isn't doing much lately, i'll update you on what i've been doing. i got bored and decided to move my megasquirt ecu from the center console to the raintray in a modified Motronic ecu box for a move OEM look and also to utilize the much superior OEM wiring harness connectors. i've also fed a 2.5mm stereo cable from the megasquirt board into the cabin for connectivity. i relocated the FETs (not pictured) to the aluminum side for better heat dissipation, and i moved the MAP sensor from the bottom side to the top. all the modifications to the box and otherwise were a biatch, i wouldn't do it again but i'm very pleased with the outcome.
before








after


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

So Midnight, where are all the wires coming out of your connector!?








Looks good!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Good to see that it fits in the stock case


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_So Midnight, where are all the wires coming out of your connector!?








Looks good!

it's done now, just wasn't in the picture







and i had to chop two cases to make it long enough for the MS board, if you look close you'll see that.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Great idea.. perfect for people who might be racing in a class where you have to keep the stock ECU.. which can sometimes be interpreted as the stock ECU case and changing the PROM chip which is usually defined as allowed could involve having to change the whole board that fits inside that case.
I'm doing a similar thing for a friend with a Honda Delsol he races since the rules dont specifically say we cant change out the board to change the prom chip.


----------



## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Am I correct in my thinking that I can't use my ABA distributor with MsNS? Due to it only having one hall sensor window.
Has anyone figured a way around this in the code? If not what dist. should I get to swap in?


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (86JettaWolfsburg)*

CIS or Digifant 4 window dizzy. TT makes a spacer that allows it to fit and work perfectly.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
BEND them rules! Yeah, Midnight dis an awsome job on that one! I didn't even notice the longer case, until looking specificaly for that.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Great job on the case MidnightGLI! I need to make or buy a new case for mine. I made the first one quickly out of an ARP rod bolt box lined with antistatic plastic.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

Antistatic plastic is a bad idea. It works because it is conductive... Having a board in service wrapped in such, could be hazardous to its health. A freidn of mine blew a $500 dollar motherboard cause he powered it up while sitting on the Anti-Static sleeve it came in!


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Lol! that figures! I have over one year and over 10,000 miles on that ecu!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*








Thats a volkswagen for you! The more impossible the setup, the better it seems to work.... Specialy electronics.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Well, it's time to break out the meter... I have infinite on the bag and infinite if I poke the probes through the antistatic plastic. I still don't recomend this setup. When I built it I was pressed for time. The last one I built came with an aluminum case for around $140 unbuilt.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

Geoff, that case is PIMP YO!


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

stealth...








Tech inspector: "What's with the ARP box in your raintray?"
Geoff: "Oh that, yeah i like to keep an extra set of head studs just in case."
Tech inspector: "What's with the wires coming out the side?"
Geoff: "What wires?"
Tech inspector: "Those wires."
Geoff: "What wires?" *Benjamin handshake*
Tech inspector: "What wires...?"


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Geoff
That case is an absolute belter, you just need some wicker recaros to finish off


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (aspro)*

Alright, thanks guys! But let's keep this thread on track with diygti's original intentions.
How many of you have migrated to MsNs Extra? I tried it last fall and I must have missed something ( aka it didnt work ) and I went back to normal MsNs and proceded to run the car as my winterbeater. I am working on my buddy's VR rabbit and it should be running on the extra code in a week or two with EDIS6. I am trying to get the EDIS to use the standerd VR coil pack... I have a lot of research to do yet.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

Hi Geoff,
I wouldn't bother trying to get the VR coil pack working, there is opinion on http://www.msefi.com that using other coil packs can burn out the EDIS module.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

You shouldn't have any trouble with the VR6 coilpack. One thing that needs to be done is removal of the built in igniters on the pack. Four screws in the back and the four under the tray on the top will separate the halves. It then only needs 12v power and the three EDIS - coil wires to it.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

I'd suggest using the Ford coilpack if you have it, Sure it wont look as OEM and if thats the goal then try the stock one.. but otherwise the Vr6 coilpacks are known for their cracking and arcing issues and are expensive to replace.
I've never heard of a ford coilpack failure or module failure with the ford stuff and aftermarket high output coilpacks are available from MSD or Accell


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

My buddy has a complete EDIS-6 setup. While setting it up we noticed that we need custom ignition wires to fit into the VR head. That wasn't in the budget / project time frame at the time. I have a box of failed VR6 coilpacks (some with bad drivers and some with bad coils) that I have collected over the years in anticipation of my corrado's pack failing. I planned on finding one with good coils and running it like need_a_VR6 stated above with VW wires.
What are you guys using for VR6 ignition wires? I had a link to an advertiser here that could apparently make some ford pack to vr head wires but I can't find it at the moment.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

I've used Magnecor wires with good luck, but I was going to buy my next set from wires4cars.com. 
I'd bet that the VR6 coils would last a bit longer without the on board amp heating it up, and with some insulating material between the pack and the head as well.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

One of my buddies is a Ford guy. He keeps at least one spare coilpack and module on hand at all times. He isn't racing his minivan or trucks, but he has had a handfull of failures. 
As for a good reason to use he stock VR6 coil pack, COST. MegaSquirt can control the stock coilpack pretty much as is. If your using a V2.2 board, then you have to build a vr conditioning circuit. A few dollars worth of parts and some time and its online. The EDIS requires fabrication of the pulley, fabrication of mounts, fabrication of the wires and then you still have the MS board ECU mods to do. 
As of this point, I do not know of anyone running the VR6 on its stock coilpack and sensors yet. As soon as I finish up the last bits of this swap and live with the OBD-2 long enough to get it running right, I will be transfering over to the MegaSquirt on all the stock bits. Wires have been the weak link in every performance system I have tuned or set up. I like to be able to walk over to the corner parts store and pick up a new set!


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

need_a_VR6: Thanks for the link. That's the one I couldn't find. The insulator sounds like a great idea.
T3Bunny: That looks like a bit of work to use the stock sensors. Which Version do you have? All the ones I played with were 2.2 boards. We have the EDIS pretty much ready to go on the rabbit. I just need to finish the coilpack and it's wires.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

The problem with the VR6 and the EDIS trigger wheel is that the VR6 crank pulley is so huge! My EDIS wheel would have to be mounted almost a 1/4" off the face of the pulley to get a clean VR signal and get the sensor mounted close enough. It would be better with an underdrive alum one, but that's money as well. I think the best solution for a VR6 is to use a hall type sensor on the stock trigger wheel. Working on it


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GeoffVR6)*

I have a v2.2 board for my Bunny. I am thinking of getting the v3.0 for the VR6. The v3.0 has built in vr conditioner circuits. The reason we moved away from using a hall sensor where the VR6 one is due to the need to make it heat resistant and oil proof in the stock location. 
You have to run te extra code to get it to work, but there are provisions for four outputs and the VR6 only needs three. The fourth one can actually be used now to run a 4 cly tach!


----------



## DutchJetta (Jan 29, 2003)

Which code is running EDIS stable? I just downloaded the newest MT, just need to know which code to use. Now running 8x8 Fuel only, and have a full EDIS setup, with BOSCH DIS coils from an Alfa Romeo.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (DutchJetta)*

I agree with all the points on the VR6 coilpacks.. But I still havnt heard locally of any failed ford ignition parts and my wifes cousin has worked for 20 years at a local ford dealership as the senior mechanic he said he's never had one come in for replacement.
Either way the VR sensor option and using the V3 board is something i'm working on as well.
Been hunting for a local who is interested in an ECU to offer free installation and setup for an ODB2 VR or a newer 2L or even a 1.8T
The 1.8T would likely be able to run in waste spark mode if you wired the coils in pairs to the ignition drivers.

oh and for any of you with domestics, MS-2 Docs are backwards for HEI ignition setup.. I just spent 5-6hours trying to figure out why my 81 suburban didnt like me after a TunedPortInjection conversion running MS-2


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Send me a V3 ECU and I'll have it running on a VR6 at the end of the week. No problem


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Paul or Dave, any idea what it would take to get the V3 ecu to work with the stock ABA 60-2 trigger wheel and VR sensor along with some type of coil packs to provide a distributorless ignition?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Yeah easiest is to build a V3 board up with the VR sensor conditioning circuit.. run a sheilded wire from the stock crank position sensor to the ECU and then build up some coil drivers.. theres one on board the V3 board and you can easily build up another two in the proto area.. run a V1 CPU and the MSnSnExtra code and it should work.. just need to try it and find out the pitfalls in person before i start offering them for sale


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

That's pretty much exactly the way I had it figured, it seems like it should be pretty easy but I've got ZERO experience with Megasquirt, either the hardward or software so, I've got a lot of homework to do before I'm ready to make an attempt. I'm hoping by the time I'm ready, someone else will have done it already so that I can avoid those pitfall or at least have some one I can call on to help me work through them.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I agree with what Dave is saying. It'd be way easier to start with the V3 board then the V2.2 and add all the VR condition stuff to it on a daughter board. 
Probably the 'easiest' way to get a VR6 up and running would be to machine a new cam trigger wheel that's 12-2 (6-1+6-1). I bet the stock VR6 cam sensor (hall) could even read that fine as well. On my list of things to try.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I only started with the v2.2 board as I am most familiar wit that one. Yeah, for my VR6 setup I will probally go for the v3.0. 
But a bit of confusion here... WHY do we need to build three coildriver circuirts? Is the v3.0 not already setup with the spark outputs? Okay, on my v2.2 I made the mods to allow me to use each led as an output. But other than that it didn't require anything else. A few other questions.
Where would this new machined wheel go? Would tis also be in the same spot on the cam? And why not just use the VR6 coilpack? At least until it failed and needed to be upgraded. I have started to hack my coilpack and got polarity information on it so far. 
It just seems to me that utilizing all stock components on the VR6 is the easiest and quickest way to do it. Its more brain work for sure, but the setup is easily repeated once you got it all worked out.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I would use the factory 60-2 tooth wheel thats mounted on the crank.. ignore the CAM position sensor since its not required to do batch fuel or waste spark ignition
the V3 boards do have ONE high current IGBT driver for doing a single coil output..
You need 3 coil drivers on a 6cyl to do waste spark and run off a crank position sensor.. 
Or i guess you could build another board <custom> that did a sequential count starting at 1.. from 1-3 and triggered each bank of coils one after the other.. the hard part would be knowing when to sync up with the first bank after that it would just fire sequentially.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I am clear on the wasted spark bit. I need to study the v3.0 board some more though. I need four spark outputs. Three for the VR6 coilpack, one for the tachometer output. Then I need an IAC circuit... I assume those three outputs for the coilpack do not need to be high current ones since we will utalize the stock setup?
I am very new to the VR6 engines. Sure I have had one for years, but I only chipped her and changed oil, plugs and wires. This is the first time I have gotten dirty on one of these!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

You need 4 outputs.. not necessairly spark.. 3 I would suggest have High Current IGBT's on them since you would likely bypass the stock ignitor in the VR6 coilpack <easier than trying to understand how it works etc>
The 4th output doesnt need to be high current its just a regular MS output and requires a transistor, diode and a resistor or two usually.
I'm not sure what else to suggest but it sounds like your on the right track If you were nearby i'd be happy to help build and configure it for you just so i understood it better.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

The VR6 coilpack works just like a dummy ignition module. It needs +12v switched, ground, and three signals pulled to ground to spark. Dwell settings in the MS would be needed, but it would eliminate the need for the extra internal ignition drivers.
If you're using a VR6 tach you only need 1 pulse per rev, and you can gam that right off one of the coils.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I was KINDA going for a sleeper look... It will likely be pretty obvious to any in the know though, as I am going to run the plus suspension and wheels from the VR6 (JUST bought nice new tires for her!). This will get driven by the wife and I as our daily driver, and she misses her old '84 Bunny GTI. She LOVED the VR6 engine, but hated the electrical gremlins the car was possesed with. I hated the OBD-2 managment as I could always here smidgens of knock in certain conditions.
Translation: I am sticking with ALL the stock interior bits. The tach will be the 4 cly tach. This car was picked for the ability to swap in the VR6 engine and still have the feel of her old Bunny.


----------



## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Do you think it would it be possible to use the crank position wheel on the ABA and the V3 board with extra coil circuts to run coil on plug?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*

yes.
but not exactly cop.. you could do cop but it would be waste spark..or like the new 2L mk4 engines they have a coilpack like the VR which i'm sure could be setup Waste spark style.


_Modified by CdnDub at 4:35 PM 7-29-2005_


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif good topic


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_yes.
but not exactly cop.. you could do cop but it would be waste spark

_Modified by CdnDub at 4:35 PM 7-29-2005_

So, I would need to add one more coil circut to the V3 board, and wire the coils in two parallel sets....right?
I hope this is the case, I have been trying to keep from using the dizzy, but I don't want to use another ignition controller if MS can do it. When it comes to electronics I really want to keep things as simple as possible.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *86JettaWolfsburg* »_
So, I would need to add one more coil circut to the V3 board, and wire the coils in two parallel sets....right?


Yes, at least that I think what he's getting at. The coils on plugs # 1 and 4 fire together as do the ones on plugs # 2 and 3 so you'd need only 2 ignition driving circuits and the MS V3 board already has one so you need to add just one more. This set-up would be identical to the one I'm hoping to do except that I'll be using coil packs instead of individual coils.


----------



## slappynuts (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Everybody has posted up timing maps.I would like to see some cold start maps and the like. Post up that page.Thanks.Please tell what size injectors your using.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (slappynuts)*

my cold start enrichments are far from perfect


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: (slappynuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slappynuts* »_Everybody has posted up timing maps.I would like to see some cold start maps and the like. Post up that page.Thanks.Please tell what size injectors your using.

what motor are you looking for? I drove a 9A 16v all winter last year, started at -40C


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (OttawaG60)*

my experience on cold start enrichments is that you need to tune it yourself, there is a very fine line that needs to be held to keep the car running well and one persons settings will NOT necessarily work for another. will get you close though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *86JettaWolfsburg* »_I hope this is the case, I have been trying to keep from using the dizzy, but I don't want to use another ignition controller if MS can do it. When it comes to electronics I really want to keep things as simple as possible.

MS can definatly control ignition! You have TONS of options for ways to set it up also... Keeping the setup simple is always a realy good idea to follow.
Do any of you know if the coilpacked OBD-2 VR6 engine will take the early dizzy? And is there an avalible six window hall referance thingy for it? I am working to set it up on the stock OBD-2 coilpack, but as this is also my daily driver.... I need to get it backonline in the next week or so!


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

sorry man, might wanna ask in the 12v forum, i'm sure you'll get an answer pretty quick


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

From what I have seen on the first VR6 I got MSnS running on ( Dizzy head ) the heads are different. I don't think you can easily throw a dizzy on a coil pack head. As far as the dizzy windows go, the one did have one window... I made 5 more with a dremal after carefully measuring the start and end of 60 degrees for each one to match the first.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

McGyver who?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

I LOVE my dremels!!! Well one of my buddies tels me out of the 60+ wires that fed through the firewall for the OBD-2 harness that I only need to connect TWO of them to make the engine run








It looks like I am going to need to "scope things out"








on a running setup first!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

You can throw a distro on a coil head no problem. All you need is the side cover and the distro drive that bolts onto the cam. Of course a distro too and ones with good hall senders aren't cheap! There's no 6 window wheel that I know of, so you'd probably have to make one.
You need more then two of those wires.. at least 12v hot, ground(s) usually one power one signal, 12v switched ignition, fuel pump output to relay.. there's more from that harness for things like the VSS and O2 power as well.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I suspected as much... pouring over the wiring diagrams. I may not even BOTHER with the OBD-2 crap at all and just go straight over to the MS. It will be a LOT easier other than setting up the ignition. But the new V3.0 ecu on its way will make that part a lot easier.


----------



## cookvwgli (Oct 4, 2004)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

keep up the good replies comming


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (cookvwgli)*

I posted this thought on the MS site but no comments yet.... Anyone think there is a prefered sensor? IE VR or Hall? Hall has some setup issues to deal with, but the VR needs a conditioner. If everything were equal, would one be better than the other?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I'd say hall because it's not effected by noise, doesn't need special wiring, and has a nice square output that directly goes into MS without additional circuitry. They are a few more $$ though, which is why the factory probably went VR.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Well as for the VR conditioning circuitry, its built into the V3.0 ECU. I now have two of them sitting here in front of me.... So we will let you guys know how it works on the stock sensor soon.


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## mmentone (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

ok this might be a dumb question. Im looking to get MS to run my aba 16v and im wondering if im going to need the spark extra or if the new v.3 will work


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (mmentone)*

the -extra code is just to expand on the functionality of the base MSnS, so it's FREE! now i'm not sure if the -extra code runs on the v3 board, i haven't been following it all that closely.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

I ordered a v3.0 megasquirt kit a couple days ago, it has the VR signal conditioner built in along with one ignition coil driver circuit. I intend to add a second coil driver circuit and run MSnS-E with coil packs using the ABA's 60-2 trigger wheel and VR sensor to provide for distributorless ignition. I'm sure it'll take me a few months to get everything sorted out. I'll post my experiences as I work my way through the process.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

There realy is no reason why the V3.0 won't run the extra code.... The CPU is the same as for the V2.2 board. As far as I know, the only issues will be the LEDs are labled differantly in the extra. 
My first V3.0 should be done this weekend. I will be loading the extra code right up as soon as the last bits are soldered into place. The V3.0 takes a GOOD BIT longer to build, but the extra tricks it has are DEFINATLY going to be worth it!
So I will let you all know as soon as its all done!


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Jamie, how'd you make out with the V3.0 build? My kit arrived yesterday, I'll probably start my build on the weekend. 
BTW, for anybody thinking about getting an MS system, I got mine from Jerry at http://www.DIYAutoTune.com. Excellent costumer service and rapid shipping, they get a BIG http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif from me.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

VERY well, I think...








I have had one small problem with my V3.0 buildup. Its randomly turning off! It appears to be the "wall wart" power supply I am using to power the stimulator. This kit has everything installed on it, and likely draws more power than the old supply can deliver. I will try another supply this weekend.
We have been super busy! Tomorrow we get to do more tuning and playing around with the Bunny and her new LM-1 wideband! MST3K will let you input a AFR target map. As soon as I figure out HOW to get this working... This car will be basically able to tune itself!
I also want to give a shout out to DIY Autotune! I ordered my latest kits from Jerry and had them in my hands within 4 days! He also goes out of his WAY to answer emails ASAP! Jerry do you SLEEP?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Honestly, I wouldn't use MST3k anymore. I had great luck a few days ago tuning with that Excel spreadsheet, and it's also looking like VexME is a good and easier to use option as well.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_....tuning with that Excel spreadsheet, and it's also looking like VexME is a good... 

??? Haven't heard of either of those.... Can you post links?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

the datalogs are just .xls excel spreadsheet files, i normally just go through them by hand and make changes without a software tool, i'd rather see the data myself and tune that way.
In fact i dyno tuned a pair of MS'd cars today on Kinetic Motorsports Dyno..
1.8L 8V crossflow Jetta with two headgaskets <9:1CR> and a T3super60 at 18ps made
295whtq and 257.3 whp








a 2L ABA 8V with a cam and 11:1 CR and header made 143whp and 120ft/lbs
so much fun.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

T3- heres the link to the vexme deal.....
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=10191

Dave, 
Curious....how do sort the data when you're tuning from the .xls files? I know *literally* how, but what's your approach? Sort the data by MAP and check the AFR voltage? What's your approach? RPM, then MAP and look at the AFR voltage or ? 
Can you address that bit? 

_Modified by Andrew Stauffer at 7:58 AM 8-24-2005_


_Modified by Andrew Stauffer at 7:59 AM 8-24-2005_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

I'm pretty old school when it comes to things, but looking through all those .xls datalogs would drive me nuts!!


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

MST3k is definatly a pain to use.... BUT it also gets the job done pretty nicely! I am going to give VexMe a tryout and see how it goes. Another AWSOME tuning program is Innovate's own LogWorks. But I Imagine it will only work easily with their products.
As for tuning WITHOUT a wideband, I don't think you can beat MST3k. The hard part is setting up ignition events and the other ego settings correctly. We were attempting to tune manualy without success due to poor settings. These issues may also effect any other tuning program you use.... I think the LogWorks should be immune to this since it actually will build up a map of your actual afr from the LM-1 internal datalogger.
Used correctly and FIGURED OUT (thats the HARD part.... lol!) MST3k is good for those like myself to whom fuel tuning is still a black art. My Bunny is still barely tuned, but we now have her SCREAMING around town! Oh, for a better explaination of tuning and using MST3k, see the section in the MegaManual. Following that instead of the confusing directions that come with the MST3k manual has gotten us realy far!
UPDATE on V3.0 buildup: We found the issue, it seems that the power supply we were using to power it on the bench was NOT powerful enough. Its now loaded and running fine on the bench with the latest extra code in it. Hopefully the final swap issues will be sorted this coming weekend, and we will be soon installing the MS into this GT VR6 beast!


_Modified by T3Bunny at 11:03 AM 8-24-2005_


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I'm pretty old school when it comes to things, but looking through all those .xls datalogs would drive me nuts!! 

Holy hell, no kiddin'. VexMe is super sweet for this stuff.....although my fueling under boost is super rich and it's not suggesting I change a thing. So somethings up......


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

Does super-rich = your AFR target? I'm not sure but it might need a certain amount of points until it offers a suggestion.


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

No, I'm overshooting the target AFR by about 2 full points in the worse cases. I'm looking for 11.9:1 at 9psi and getting 10:1 AFRs o there abouts. Of course, might just be those inj going full on. Runs well despite it all, but it's costing me torque.......
But since you mentioned it, that target AFR stuff is hellacool. Really works well. This stuff is on the cusp of self tuning. Once I see that feature, I'll step up from this v1 board


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## Sucka (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

i was using your wiring diagram to look over the work of the man that had my egine before me and i was wondering for some reason there is no wire on pin 37 and on the wiring diagram that you posted on this thread i don't really know what is going on with the 24 pin or the 28 pin if you could clear some of that for me my 16v rabbit turbo will be up and runing a lot quicker, thanks 
Johnny


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Sucka)*

Sucka, your best off asking the guy who sold this to you... EVERY MegaSquirt setup is differant. if its not running..... well do what you would with a stock system. Check for spark and fuel. Check the basics, see what its not doing. Do you have the led blinking when you turn the car on? If so the MS is getting power.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Sucka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sucka* »_ there is no wire on pin 37 and on the wiring diagram that you posted on this thread i don't really know what is going on with the 24 pin or the 28 pin

Pin 37 triggers the fuel pump relay. If you use the stock fuel pump relay then you wouldn't need a wire here. So, if your fuel pump is running and there's no wire on 37 you have the stock setup.
Pin 28 is 12V power to power the MS unit itself. You have to have switched 12V connected here.
What is connected to pin 24 depends on how you're using your hall signal. If your MS has been modified to the following schematic, then you don't need any connection to 24 and your hall signal would come in on pin 25.








The stock MS uses pin 24 to input the hall sensor and no connection to pin 25. (although you'd probably need a pullup resistor for that configuration to work)
HTH
Dan


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Well guys, we got the Bunny running REALY good now! I finally nailed most of the small plauging mechanical gremlins down. As soon as my budget permits, we can get her out for final dyno tweeking. I do still need to get some miles onto the new clutchpack though. 
By the end of the weekend we should also have the Bosch PWM idle valve running, and the boost controller built and running. 
Dave is making a convert of me! I will be finishing up my VR6 install and setup in te next few weeks and have ANOTHER car waiting for a MegaSquirt as soon as the GT is all done! Crap, these damn things are addictive!!!


----------



## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

What is the cheapest that I could get the rest of the ignition parts that I need to get my 1.8 16v running on ms2? I am not even sure what all I need? I am running out of money and need help please.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (diddle)*

If your asking this question, perhaps you should stick to stock?








Seriously though, you SHOULD have all the parts already needed for spark control. Yor stock setup is fairly easily implimented. As for fuel, you have lots to work out and cost is determined by your creativity in implimenting it. I would assume you have a CIS rocco? So your fuel fump is fine. You will need electronic injectors, a fuel rail, inserts for the injectors, and a tps throttle body. The TPS throttle body to use is off an automatic 16v, like a Passat. But I THINK most of the 16v throttle bodies even NON-tps will still take the tps switch. If it has the heat sheild under it, you just need the tps itself.
Not sure there is an EASY to impliment fuel rail. The old Jaguars used injectors with barbed fittings on the top. Fiats also. I am sure lots of the old Euro cars used these. These would be easy to use and make up a custom fuel rail out of copper pipe and silver solder. Just like they did in the old days! 
Basically, figure out what you got sitting on the shelf then start digging through your local junkyard. I rebuilt my engine (ALL new internals other than oilpump), turbocharged it, new CAST turbo manifold, new turbo camshaft, all my bits and sensors, the MegaSquirt setup including the stimulator, and even machine shop work for only $1400. We made VERY good use of the local Junkyards and also E-Bay.
As for the MegaSquirt stuff itself, spend the little more for the V3.0 board, and DEFINATLY get the stimulator kit. Wiring, well we used a gutted VW harness so we could retain correct factory colors!


----------



## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_If your asking this question, perhaps you should stick to stock?










Ya, I know. My brother is gonna help out though, and he knows what he's doing. 
I have all my fueling figured out, and I am running motorcycle throttle bodies that have a tps. I sort of want to know what the cheapest route is to go without the distributer? I have seen some ford edis setups around? Sorry they are some stupid questions, this has just confused the hell out of me from the start.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (diddle)*

Do yourself a BIG BIG FAVOR! START with the stock ignition and get the fueling right first. AFTER you have the car set up with yout throttle bodies, then you can run one of the Ford EDIS systems. My buddy has one of these beasties and he had a SUPER SLICK edis install. He had so much trouble with the fueling setup and ignition... He put a stock ignition back in to get her setup on the fuel first. 
Impliment things one peice at a time. Fueling is a lot more to learn than you might think at first glance. Then you can play with other options. The Extra code supports COP now for four cylinders! Or you can go with two coils and wasted spark.


----------



## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Will I be wanting to keep the knock box stuff and whatnot, or just the distributer,coil, and ign. module?








And thanks for the help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (diddle)*

You have a knock sensor ignition?! If so LEAVE IT! Leave it in there and LEAVE IT ALONE!!! Really all you need for that car is to fuel it! With a ITB setup, your not going to be pushing turbocharged type hp figures. Its not about that, its about super fast throttle response. 
We are building two more MegaSquirted cars right now. One is the VR6 into the 87 golf swap. We have to impliment FULL spark and fuel as the engine is OBD-2 with the coilpack. 
The other is a fairly stock 87 cabriolet my Pops wants more reliability out of and performance but ALSO fuel economy! It is getting the factory knock sensor ignition out of the 87 GT. Otherwise its being left alone, and we will just take our ignition signal off the coil. Yeah, we will clip the wire on the ignition so it uses the slightly more agressive map, but otherwise we can't beat the factory knock sensor setup.
I was told a while ago, that the stock VW ignition is easily capable of up to 175hp before you have to start fiddling it. If its not broke, and you can't fix it BETTER than before you broke it to improve it... LEAVE IT ALONE!
BTW, my Turbo Bunny runs the stock ignition system mostly. I DO have full control of it, but its still the stock coil, module, dizzy, and even the nice Bosch wires! So I can go get new wires and bits off the local parts shelf.


_Modified by T3Bunny at 9:42 PM 9-9-2005_


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## Sucka (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Sucka)*

so in order to give MS power you take the wire from the 28 pin and splise it in to your ignition wire? and if all goes well you will have the led light turning in when the ignition is turned to the on position?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Sucka)*

Hey T3Bunny hows your VR project going, I kept meaning to email and check in, I've made some good progress myself on the VW VR/Coil driver side and just finished off Two V3 ECu's one with Hall direct in <the mods for the board are a little different than the V2's, and one for VR input> and both use the IGBT coil driver on board to drive coils direct.. The more i use these V3 PCB's the more i like them.
I was curious who else was running a V3 with Ignition driven right off the ECU for a VW/Audi.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Kinda poorly but no fault of the MegaSquirt stuff. Issues with life and my Turbo Bunny! I will email you a detailed progress report








Right now we are sorting out installation issues and getting the rest of the car finished. The big problem is using the bits I have to get the radiator and condensor installed. And we are trying to get the engine height a little bit lower.


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_one for VR input> and both use the IGBT coil driver on board to drive coils direct.

Did you have any issues with noise on the VR input, I was reading on MSEFI that sheilded twisted pair cable was needed and it works ok? Did you gut the coilpacks of the igniters? Could you give some more detail on how you set it up? Was talking with Need_a_VR6 and he seems to think the MS ECU could be set up to use the stock coil pack as it was designed from the factory tieing the LED outputs to the 3 signal wires on the coilpack instead of the IGBT coil drivers? I'd like to try to get MSnS-e set up on my car without using the VB921s.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (darren p.)*

I'm using sheilded wire for the VR inputs.. will be testing its functionality tonight using a spare HEI dizzy to see if i get a clean signal <spinning it up with a drill>
I'll keep you posted.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Shielded wire is going to be VERY important, remember to ground it ONLY at the MS end (not that there's much of a choice). Your best bet for cable and connector is to use the 3 wire bundle that's in a factory harness as it's well terminated, and will be lower noise then a self crimped solution.


----------



## Sucka (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Can you please help me with this wiring diagram i can't seem to make sence of it?
another thing how does pin 28 get 12V power is it through the MS ECU?








And also why is the wiring diagram on the MS website a bit different?
will either one work?










_Modified by Sucka at 3:02 AM 9-27-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Sucka)*

As for the stuff in Blue... I think you may want to keep the battery








First off we need more information. Like what engine, car, and are you doing just fuel or fuel and spark control? It will make a BIG differance in how you set it all up. And forgive me if you already tossed this out there...
If your using the stock fuel pump stuff, then realy all you should need to do is access the FP turn on and if its a CIS car, change the relay over to a digifant one. 
Realy though on the older CIS cars you are usally better off BYPASSING the stock wiring and starting over fresh. Its maybe an hour of work at most and a guarantee you won't have bad connection issues then. I have discovered the best way to fix electrical issues with cis cars is to MegaSquirt them! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Sucka)*

This is my first diagram pic on my first "MSnS" car. I have modified it since it was posted to clear up random missfires while cruising on the hwy by using one like MidnightGLI's IIRC ( I posted about that on page 3 ). 
Blue: Stock fuel pump and relay on this one. 
Yellow: That is the original pullup resistor mod I did to the hall sender.
Brown: Is my notes on the ignition wiring for MSnS on my first try.
( 12k miles on this MSnS car with the hall mod being at about 5k miles )
MS Pic below: That is the standard fuel only diagram.
Recomendation: Use Midight's posted diagram. It's hard for everyone to have one final diagram for everyone's needs.
PS: you don't want to see my scribbling on that sheet of paper after I added EDIS-6 notes to it.


----------



## SlowCorrado (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_If your using the stock fuel pump stuff, then realy all you should need to do is access the FP turn on and if its a CIS car, change the relay over to a digifant one. 

T3bunny, could you just clairify this for me? I've heard that the FP relay on the digi has a rev limiter and that you shouldn't use it? I may have misread something on msefi.com about this, or I'm just confused.








Others say to replace it with a plain relay, but I've also heard that then your FP will run all the time while the ignition is on (even with engine off, somewhat dangerous) Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (SlowCorrado)*

Damn but VW relays are such a big PAIN








I HAD a revlimiter on my Bunny. Its a German made 1991 Eite Aigner (yeah whatever







) edition. I THOUGHT I had to change the relay for the same reason. Mind you, I got to junkyard or scrap a car and I pull the relays out. So I have a HUGE box of them and an Etka program to confuse me even MORE!
Well I tried a standard relay and its even WORSE than what you described because it wouldn't let me shut it down. I popped a "cis" relay into her and had some supper goofy issues and the fp would run for twenty seconds AFTER i shut the car off. Like I would have ignition on but engine not running, no fp. Turn off and the fp would come on.
After much screaming at my car and even learning some "proper German" to help, somebody told me to put the digi-fart relay back in. Its worked fine since!
I have mine set up for two priming pulses at turn on. You can hear it pop on twice then go silent unless we crank it over.
As far as I KNOW, no rev limiter on this thing. I used to have the limiter kick in around 5400rpm or so. I don't think I have ever hit it since I replaced the digi with either the TEC or now the MegaSquirt. Crap, I don't think I have ever hit the limiter I set in the MS either. Now its set for a soft cut at 6300 and full at 6500.
SO, AS FAR AS I KNOW, no limiter on the digi fp relay. And it used to REALY piss me off!







I used to hit it NON-STOP.


----------



## Sucka (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

The engine is a 16vT out of a 89 gti, it is now sitting in the engine bay of my 84 rabbit L, it is fuel and spark


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

BTW Andrew, go check out the latest version of MegaTune! http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=11314
It is now self tuning! Needs fiddling a little. Not had a chance to poke at it yet since my damn Turbo tried to fall outta the car...








Now that I thought I was done putting her back together and making things like a BRACE for the turbo, we found a GEG lurking about in the car (German Electrical Gremlin). My car now thinks its FUNNY to increase the o2 sensor voltage in proportion to the gas pedal...








So tomorrow I hunt down a bad ground!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I was just testing out megatune 619 and the latest MSnSnExtra code on some V3 boards, I wish i had more time to post in the forum here, theres some amazing projects in the works.
All i can say is MS has really evolved, the autotune function seems to work quite well with a wideband and targetAFR's enabled <can even tune WOT if you let it>.
As a side note, its pretty impressive what MS has turned into.
I'm currently building an ECU and doing an install on a NIssan SR20DET in a 240SX <sure its not a VW but its still cool>.
Native Coil on plug and a distributor sensor type setup with two triggers, which lets me run COP from an MSV1 ECU and still have processor left over to do boost control, target AFR's, self tuning and all that other crazy stuff.
Every time i look at the MS sites theres some new feature or tweak to the tuning software its amazing anyone can keep up.


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
As a side note, its pretty impressive what MS has turned into.


No question!
Any updates on the VR6 stuff?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (darren p.)*

I've got one ECU that i'm still working on the VR input stuff on the bench.. doesnt want to give me a clean signal with my Oscope either.. It has to work in the next week since i'm doing an install for a customer with a 95 Golf with an ODB2 VR6 in it coilpack and all using the stock 60-2 triggger wheel.. i'll keep the list posted.
Dave


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, you sure the shielding is up to par? I've had very bad luck with VR sensors and loosing the shield across connectors (not automotive, but generally). Do you get a nice proportional sine wave in, or a lot of spiking?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I'm getting no signal at all







even with a nice benchtop Function generator that i know for a fact can output a nice clean AC sine wave at 5-10volts
i have a feeling I just encountered a bad component with the VR section on this V3 board since the opto/hall/points trigger side works great.
Btw i will post a photo/writeup of how to configure a V3 board for powering and being driven off a VW dizzy.. the docs on the MSnSnExtra site are missing a few things.. And the spark output stuff works great with it as well, you no longer need the 7pin module.
I've only tested this on the bench so far with a sparkplug and a dizzy with an airdrill at 4000rpm.. the Spark had a nice high pitched arc at that rpm and generated enough electrical noise to cause my Optical USB mouse sitting nearby to start resetting spontaneiously.. and yet the ECU kept on working fine without the top half of the case.
I like to abuse the ECU's i send customers and make sure they work in even less than idea situations








The VR parts and another V3 board should be on my doorstep this morning sometime so i'll see if i can get a new VR section built up and tested today.
Dave


----------



## SlowCorrado (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Btw i will post a photo/writeup of how to configure a V3 board for powering and being driven off a VW dizzy.. the docs on the MSnSnExtra site are missing a few things.. And the spark output stuff works great with it as well, you no longer need the 7pin module.


This is awesome! I'm really looking forward to that. I had heard that you could get away without the 7-pin module, but there wasn't much specific info out there. I'm very close to buying everything for my setup. It looks like MSI v.3.0 or MS II v.3.0 are what I'll get.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, I can't remember the specifics of the stock VR off the top of my head but 10v AC is a pretty big induced sine wave.. if you hit it with that it might have cooked the LM chip. Whoops! Your best bet in testing is just to hook up a stock VR sensor and wave it past a piece of steel and look for a spike on the processor pin, or just in front of that but after the LM. Then hook up the wheel.. make sure you can get something before you drive yourself nuts.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I was actually testing with a GM HEI dizzy, which apparnetly puts out -4V to +5 V <differential of 9V> after i had no signal from that I tried the function generator, and your right i'll try a stock VR sensor and just waving some steel to get a realworld test.. I do need to get a trigger wheel on a motor and mount the sensor so i have a proper test rig at some point though..
I'd keep a shortblock with a crank around but its a little exesssive


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
I'd keep a shortblock with a crank around but its a little exesssive









You should move out here, we could set you up with that no problem.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Hwh, I got a bunch of spare 4 bangers... That won't help much though.







I am looking forward to getting the latest batch of bugs out of my Turbo Bunny. It has a trigger wheel on the auxillary shaft just waiting to be toyed with! Runs fine off the hall though.
Sometime I hope to get back to working on my VR6


----------



## lroy12 (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

who has sucessfully put Ms'n's on their aba??
im me! for i am going to be doing this really soon


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (lroy12)*

i've done a few.. have a few fuel/ignitionl maps for NA ones and Turbo'd ones if you need one.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

converted to MSnS-e today and i'm having serious part throttle drivability issues. WOT the car pulls pretty decent, but anything less it's stumbling and sputtering like mad. i smoothed out the ign map a bit and it helped, but i think i need to take a look at my enrichments and my VE again...







somedays i wish i had just done Digi 1 and be done with it... anyone want to trade?


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_converted to MSnS-e today and i'm having serious part throttle drivability issues. WOT the car pulls pretty decent, but anything less it's stumbling and sputtering like mad. i smoothed out the ign map a bit and it helped, but i think i need to take a look at my enrichments and my VE again...







somedays i wish i had just done Digi 1 and be done with it... anyone want to trade?









Check your mixture with a wideband - changing the timing also means changing the fueling. 
The differences with advancing / retarding the timing are really noticeable - it was really neat to play with it and see the changes in accelaration as you advance timing.
Try to be systematic, and stick with it!


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

yeah, i've been playing with MS for almost a year now and i've gotten pretty good at it. it's just a matter of trial and error on a lot of it. i just felt like complaining a little, it was 95 degrees out today and didn't feel like messing with the car very much. i had the car running bang on for a long time on basic MSnS but then i replaced my headgasket and cleaned up a bunch of the wiring and converted to MSnS-e at the same time. so now it's starting from step one pretty much.
here is a video of when it was running well








http://forum.vwsport.com/pics/...s.wmv


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_i've done a few.. have a few fuel/ignitionl maps for NA ones and Turbo'd ones if you need one.


I have an NA project I could use a map for


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Midnight, did ya remember to export all yer tables first?!








I made that mistake once... You could always go back to the other code and reload a good .msq. I assume you got those saved right?








Anyways, its three minutes to do that and then export the tables and reflash the new code. If your making a big jump, you will have to do it this way. One of the Beta testers also taught me to go through each screen (use the reveiw mode) and take a screenshot or go print screen. A lot of times things won't transfer correctly especially if thers more than a few code hops between them.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*









Hey Dave!!! I need one for an OBD-2 VR6! Got the whole .msq?


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_i've done a few.. have a few fuel/ignitionl maps for NA ones and Turbo'd ones if you need one.

He he


----------



## Sucka (Apr 12, 2004)

*help*

i got everything wired up and for some reason when i connected the labtop to the MSecu it won't connected? i am using the db-9 cable not the usb adaptor.
any help please?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: help (Sucka)*

Check, then double check, then triple check your COM settings.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: help (need_a_VR6)*

Yeah do you have the right serial port selected under the comm settings? some laptops will make the regular old comm port Com 3/4 if they have an internal modem. You've probably checked that already though.
the other question did the DB9 cable come with your ECU or did you source it seperately.. it needs to be a regular old straight through and it may be that you have found a Null modem serial cable.
Has the COMM section ever worked? do you have a stimulator board to test it on another machine outside the car?
I assume your also giving the ECU +12V when you try to connect so that its got power and a ground.. for some reason i've had quite a few customers think that the ECU will magically power itself when they want to talk serial.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: help (CdnDub)*

I know these are VW forums.. but figured you guys might be curious anyways.
I seem to have the first Sequential Coil on plug engine going with MS its got some coil dropouts and misfires when I change RPM but its working. It is a Nissan 240SX with an SR20DET engine.
Some info and vids are posted on the MSEFI forums
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=12851
and the gallery is here
http://www.fireandfuel.ca/gallery/240SX


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: help (Sucka)*

MS powered up?


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: help (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
I assume your also giving the ECU +12V when you try to connect so that its got power and a ground.. for some reason i've had quite a few customers think that the ECU will magically power itself when they want to talk serial.


LMAO.







Its official: MS units do NOT magically power themselves.







When I first built my MS unit and Test Board I didnt hook the 9V battery in my test circuit and I couldnt get the LED's to blink. I resoldered all the connections like 2 times since it was my fist time soldering and I figured I had messed up. Anyways, I hope you get it working Sucka. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Sucka (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: help (CdnDub)*

thanks for the tips.
hey it has 12V power and is grounded, but i will check the db-9 cable, can you go buy on at furture shop that goes straight through?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: help (Sucka)*

yeah they should have straight thru cables.. otherwise digikey does sell them its part number is on the MS BOM when you go to order now.
As a side note.. I think i have either the first or second Coil on plug sequential ignition MS powered vehicle in existance in my garage 
I got the bugs sorted out for the SR20DET last night and it runs smooth.. I hate to say it but it revs even quicker than the 16V turbo's i've helped tune/build.
going out road tuning tonight.
http://www.fireandfuel.ca/gallery/240SX?page=3
last 4 movies show it running.. pretty cool stuff.. I'm certainly not the mastermind behind any of this, James Cortina who writes the extra code is a pure genius http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I just got MSnS-E.







Firmware and software installed. 
Now I need some time to install it and tune it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*

I got my cable at Princess Auto for 4.99. It works great.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cdn20VALVE* »_I just got MSnS-E.







Firmware and software installed. 
Now I need some time to install it and tune it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yeah, now the easy part...


----------



## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I just have a quick question. If I want to retain my stock knock box, will I still have a rev limiter?
Car is a 1993 Cabby DigiII 16v and it currently cuts my revs at 5800 rpm. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*

NO IDEA what system you got on the car man. Are you going over to MS then? 
According to some, its the fuelpump relay that cuts out. In my experianc the FP relay doen't cut fast enough to effectivly use as a rev limiter. On my previously Digifart 1991 cabby as soon as I got rid of the stock ignition system, I lost the rev limiter. 
The digifant cars actualy control the knock through the ecu and they do not have a knock box. So if you dump the ecu, you need spark control from the MegaSquirt, or an older knock sensor ignition. And as far as I know, all the knock sensor ignitions had a rev limiter built in.
Now since your running a 16v... What car is the current ignition from? If you DO have a seperate knock box and want the knock sensor setup, your likely keeping the rev limiter. But NO 16v should be hitting the limiter that soon. Your likely running an 8v ignition and ya need to throw it in the trash and give full control over to the MegaSquirt.
The ONLY VW setup I have owned that didn't need a limiter (or have on either) was my old stock 1984 GTI. No turbo or anything that needed to stop the engine revving. I had that motor to 8k a few times. Otherwise a limiter is a good idea. The cool thing about the MegaSquirt is you can put a soft limiter then a hard cut where YOU want and need them so your not wasting a chunk of your power band.
At the moment I am MegaSquirting another cabby that will be running a factory high compression knock sensor ignition. Since the motor is fairly stock and doesn't need anything more than fuel control we are going this route. I will let ya know when its done if the limiter is still there


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

OOPS! I just saw your post up there...
Obviiously you have a MS installed. And you must be running a knock box setup. 
How are you controlling the fuel pump? If the MS has control then the limiter is in the ignition setup. I have my MS activating my stock Digi fp relay and no limiter until my set limiter in the ms. I am running full spark control via the MegaSquirt on my Turbo Cabby/Bunny. I am using the digi ignition module, and the harness for it out of my old 84.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

if you're running Digi II right now, that controls fuel and spark all in one ECU, so once you ditch that for MS you'll need to either work up an old CIS style knock box. i would recommend you just do MSnS, doesn't cost anymore and you'll be much happier with the tunability. there are some good spark maps and setup steps floating around, that it shouldn't be too hard to get running.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Correct me if I am wrong Midnight, but I think he would also HAVE to get the knock box for this setup out of a car that had the 16v in it also!? I am pretty sure the maps are differant for the two motors....
Hell, the ONLY reason I am using a VW knock setup on this current install is it came out of my A2 when I swapped the VR6 in. And since this is my Pops cabby its going into, the LEAST he can f up the BETTER.







Cause when he f's it up I get to fix it








He didn't beleive me when I told him the slight stumble was his prepump going and he needed to replace it asap. Six months later the failing pre-pump goes, wipes the main pump, engine backfiring because of poor fueling, shatters a fuel injector insert, sucks injector cap through motor, wipes out a valve, toasts the head, blows the headgasket, and craps in the fuel distributer. 
Taking the head off of course killed what was left of his crappy exhaust system. A newused head and full exhaust system (and he got the wrong bits the first time around) and all the other oddball parts and he effectivly did over 2k worth of damage to his beloved car from a $30 dollar prepump... Foutunatly for him I have a TON of VW parts. 
Isn't it AWSOME when you can fix a CIS system fuel distributer for $200 by going over to a standalone setup?! VW wants like $1400 for one of those damn things...


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

he would need to get a pre-90 (ie. 1.8l 16v) CIS-E knock box and wiring harness if he wants to run the factory ignition setup. i was suggesting, while he's doing MS anyway, why not just do MSnS and avoid all that CIS ignition crap and let MS do it all.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Definatly easier to go full spark control through the MS. Unless he doesn't realy need it due to his setup and for whatever reason he wants the knock sensor setup.
A properly tuned spark map should never NEED knock control though... And if you leave an interface in the car and DO run into a problem with bad gas, you just swing the timing a degree or two. 
A good interface to leave in the car would be a Palm Piolot. Then if its stolen you loose a ~$50 bit instead of a laptop.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

hi guys i have a really good question for you'll. I'm ordering a v3 in a month and I just thought of something I never seen posted on here before. with v3 do you have to do the same midnight mod to get it to work on distributor as you do the 2.2?


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

not if you set it up with the VB921 ign drivers, then it's a different config


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

Yeah requires mods to make it work on a VW dizzy.. I know exactly what those mods are too and will post a writeup/pic shortly.. Its quite a bit different than how it worked on a V2.2 since component names are different etc I still prefer my method where the +5V needed for the signal gets dumped back onto the old D5 <on the V2.2's> on the side nearest the DB37 so that you kill two birds with one stone.. you get +5 v for the trigger circuit and provide +5V to the hall for power on pin 24 at the same time.. then you trigger on X11 or pin 25..


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

ok. well I wanted it to be setup for both vr and distributor with a extra chip. when is the info coming out?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

even if you dont set it up with the VB921 the instructions dont directly translate since parts have different numbers etc







i'll try to post my notes up shortly.. 
but even with the VB921 its just a single jumper wire, remove a reisstor or two, and maybe a 330ohm resistor inline with the VB921 depending on your preference


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

You guys seem to be pretty well versed in the workings of MS, so I have a question for you Guru's. I am building another rabbit and am planning out the management. I already have the VRT rabbit, so this project is not going to be performance oriented. I am simply planning on doing MS to reduce engine bay clutter. I am thinking of running a very basic MS (Like MS1 V2.2) because I am am keeping the project very budget based and dont think I need anything fancy while running a very basic 8V motor. 
Here's my question: What exactly is needed to run spark and fuel? i have read of MSnS, and am having a hard time trying to find out if this is simply a software change, or if there is additional hardware to instal in the MS unit itself. What is needed to change the basic MS1(v2.2) to contol spark and fuel?
I have installed several MS kits and have built a few of the early units, but they were always used as they came, I have never upgraded one. I am also working on 3 turbo 16V cars at the moment that are getting V3.0 MS2 units (Bought as complete kits for customers cars). Any help would be great!
The new project car for views....

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

Thanks guys.
I will end up going with MsNs-E. In fact that is what my MS is set up for. The current hardware has been setup by the previous owner, and I do not think that I have Filddle control. Is there a way for me to get fiddle control and still control fuel and spark with the v2.2?


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*

yes, you can run it off of LED 17 instead of the FIdle circuit. you might have to do a bit of research on msefi.com for the schematic for that. i've been driving my car for almost a year now without an Fidle valve, it's not the end of the world.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*

To do fuel/spark on a 2.2 you just need an MS1 cpu.. the MSnSnExtra code
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra
and a few jumper wires and a VW 4 window distributor that doesnt have vacuum or mechanical advance <CIS-E or Digifant> it used to be the case that you needed a throttlebody with a TPS but even thats optional these days.
to answer the question about FIDLE and the spark output you can easily do that these days by using one of the LED's LED17 on a V2.2 or D14 on a V3 to control the spark..


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

I have a question. I am seriously doing as much research as I can on this, I am finding plenty of "This is what you Jumper", etc, but am having issues of finding _why_. Refering to this diagram...








I am trying t figure out the purpous of each mod. From what I understand, Pin 24 was originally the - from the coil to give the MS it's signal. Now you are using the Hall signal to Pin 25 for this, Correct? From what I am looking at here, it appears that the point of the 24 to 27 jumper, and the X12 to JP1-8 jumper is to get 5V to JP1-8, Correct? What I dont fully understand is why there is 5V at the original tach input? Something to do with the Zener jumper?
I could just do these mods and be happy, but I would rather fully understand what I am doing rather than thinking it's VooDoo. Thanks for and help on the matter. I easily have 12 hours in the past 3 days of researching this stuff, I am not just looking for info handouts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif











_Modified by patatron at 11:39 PM 10-31-2005_


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

yes, and as Dave said earlier, with that configuration you can power the hall sender from pin 24 instead of running it directly from the ign module. i personally did the latter and haven't had any issues, but if your car has a noisy 12v system or your ign module is crappy, then it'll affect your hall signal. but yes, those are all of the physical connections required, then you just need to change the firmware to the MSnS/MSnS -e code.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (MidnightGLI)*

hmm know mine is noisy. any ways to correct that so I can use the v3 with no problem?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_yes, and as Dave said earlier, with that configuration you can power the hall sender from pin 24 instead of running it directly from the ign module. i personally did the latter and haven't had any issues, but if your car has a noisy 12v system or your ign module is crappy, then it'll affect your hall signal. but yes, those are all of the physical connections required, then you just need to change the firmware to the MSnS/MSnS -e code.

Ok, I have configured this. I will modify it as neccessary, but I would like to contribute to this thread, as much as I have taken from it. I am basically making the diagram that I had hoped to find while searching MS info. It may already exist, but I have not found it. Please point out any mistakes I have made, and I will correct them. This just covers the wiring aspects outside of the MS ECU and combines the wiring diagrams I have found into one diagram. My 1 question is: Has anyone had any negative effects of using the 5V reference for the Hall sender + that was factory meant to be 12V+? 








_Modified by patatron at 6:51 PM 10-30-2005_

_Modified by patatron at 7:29 PM 10-30-2005_

_Modified by patatron at 11:09 PM 10-30-2005_

_Modified by patatron at 11:14 PM 10-30-2005_


_Modified by patatron at 11:38 PM 10-31-2005_


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

looks good, just remove the wire from pin 24 to the - coil and remove pin 7 of the ign module being tach signal.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_looks good, just remove the wire from pin 24 to the - coil and remove pin 7 of the ign module being tach signal.

I figured that the coil to 24 would be gone, but what is pin 7 used for? I am sick of digging through bentleys, and none of the ones I have looked at yet even say what pin 7 goes to. I only got the tach reference from a previous post in this thread. Is it meant to be tach signal, or tach output? I could look through some more bentleys, but coors is making that more difficult.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

Look at page one and page two of this thread. They have a diagram there!

_Quote »_
Heres the pinout from a VW ignition module <they are all the same>
Pin layout
1) Coil -
2) Ground / Hall - <someone check the bentley for me on this one>
4) 12V
5) Hall Trigger
6) Hall-
7) Tach signal
the ignition module pin layout is as follows (per the Bentley)
1) Coil - (tap into for tach signal)
2) Ground (valve cover)
3) Hall ground (pin 1 Hall sender)
4) 12v (switched, tap into Coil +)
5) Hall + (pin 3 Hall sender)
6) Hall signal (pin 2 Hall sender)
7) not used



Basicaly, NO. You will not be using pin 7 for a tach signal . At least not a signal for the MS. If you need that one for a signal going inside to your cluster tach thats a differant story. In my experiance those are usally taken from the coil though.
HAHA, you know its AWSOME! I was looking at your VR bunny project and saying "Ya know all that needs is a MS system!"


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Side note guys.. the SR20DET powered Nissan with COP and sequential ignition using MS left my shop on friday night.. thing was freakin fast at 8psi.. anyways its a nissan and most of you guys are VW purists so i digress.
The important bit of info here is that now that its finally done the VR6 Mk3 i've been waiting for is going to arrive tomorow.
Doing a V3 ECU with the VR sensor and stock coilpack <ODB2 out of a 97> I'll have pics and a writeup and will have a settings file with fuel/spark after its tuned its basically a stock motor other than mild exhaust work so i'll keep you posted.
And the writeups for the MSnS mods for spark for a v2.2 look great.. i'll take some pics and post a few shots of the next V2 i do with my own flavour of the mods.. I am still a big fan of isolating the hall signal from the rest of the cars eletrical systems.. it should probably even be sheilded but i've never had a problem with it in either configuration.
After all the noise i fought with doing this nissans SR20 and dual trigger to get rid of tach spikes it gave me a whole new respect for properly engineered electronics that function in worst case scenario mode..


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Dave, I am defnatly interested in more info on the nissan! Sure were hardcore VW guys but its about furthering the knowledge. Hey, are you planning on posting these writeups on your site? It would be good to get some quantified info out there thats NOT in the -=ahem=- "vortex format"








BTW: I emailed you my writeup (rough draft) on the v2.2 setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I have also used Dave's nice clean signal setup and it DEFINATLY does the trick. Since then I have helped set up three or four additional cars using that information!!!


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

Pat...
Hey just took a closer look at your diagram there. Read Daves info a little more. You REALY want to pull a 5v power to the Hall sensor and ground to the hall from the MS for noise reduction. 
Just for the hell of it, I tried powering my Bunny up the other way and noticed a HUGE JUMP in noise! If I had thought of it I would have snagged some datalogs to show the differance. 
One of the BIGGEST issues with new setups is NOISE. Hell, even a bad engine ground can induce a good bit of noise into these poor things. This is a frequent issue I see played out on the MS site. But I have yet to see ANYONE running Dave's setup to have noise issues! Us dubbers are lucky as hell to have the brains of dub fanatics like him to pick. USE IT! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 






















To answer you question more directly, I have perhaps 1500 miles on my Bunny using the 5v+ to my hall isnstead of the 12V. And all my internal gauges work fine since the tach comes off the coil for those. Also I HIGHLY recomend taking the grounds for your sensors back to the MS ecu. Its another trick that helps cut down noise. 




_Modified by T3Bunny at 10:01 PM 10-30-2005_


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_HAHA, you know its AWSOME! I was looking at your VR bunny project and saying "Ya know all that needs is a MS system!"

The VRT bunny runs way too good to change a thing. She's my very reliable daily driver, and I dont want to change anything. I have 280 WHP, and drive it daily with no issues other than ubsurd fuel consumption.
















If you guys have had good success with the 5V for the Hall sensor, I will mod the diagram as needed.


_Modified by patatron at 11:15 PM 10-30-2005_


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

I modded the diagram that I made, keep me posted, and i will keep it up to date....










_Modified by patatron at 11:40 PM 10-31-2005_


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

I under stand what a software change is, and what a hardware change is, but what are people refering to when they say "Firmware"?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

Firmware is the code that gets loaded into the MS box itself. For example either standard B&G code, or one of the MSnS-Extra variations.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Firmware is the code that gets loaded into the MS box itself. For example either standard B&G code, or one of the MSnS-Extra variations. 

Thanks, that is what I figured, I just assumed that it would be refered to as software.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=firmware


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_
...and drive it daily with no issues other than ubsurd fuel consumption.

Damn, theres a good reason right there! There is this Ford truck out there. This thing has 1000WHP. It gets better fuel economy than the stock truck did! It rund pump gas. OH, and the better fuel economy... that was determined while it was twoing a 3000lb race trailer!








Hell, I swapped my VR6 into my a2 golf just so I could get rid of the damn OBD-2 stuff.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

lol.. dont get me started.. I still have aspirations of TT'ing the Chevy350 in my 81 Suburban just to improve the torque/mileage even more.. its a tow vehicle for our race cars and damn that'd be fun.
I've already dropped a TPI manifold on it from an 87 corvette and its running MS-2 which made an instant difference to its economy and power <probably doubled both at first glance>


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## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_anyways its a nissan and most of you guys are VW purists so i digress.

F that...I'm a performance purists and am interested in all makes and models as long as its hard core. 

_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Doing a V3 ECU with the VR sensor and stock coilpack <ODB2 out of a 97> I'll have pics and a writeup and will have a settings file with fuel/spark after its tuned its basically a stock motor other than mild exhaust work so i'll keep you posted.

Awesome, I'm getting ready to do the same and am looking forward to your write up.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (darren p.)*

i'm waiting for the write up on running a vw 16v distributor on v3


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## SlowCorrado (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_i'm waiting for the write up on running a vw 16v distributor on v3

I'd second this. But I'm wondering if we V3 owners should just try and simplify the wiring and drop the ignition module all together. Doesn't the V3 support this directly?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (SlowCorrado)*

Yeah my info for the V3 will not include the 7pin module and will include what dwell settings are normal for a VW coil in any mk1 mk2 mk3


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

damn guys, don't sit around a wait for someone to do all the work for you. dig in and figure it out! http://www.msefi.com it's where we've all learned what we know, it's not magic...


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

I have some questions that I have not found in any of my searches. I am finding plenty of "How To", but missing out on "why". I want to know why I am doing the mods I am doing, not just do them and be done with it. Refering to the famous diagram listed below....








Is the point of jumpering 24 to 27, and X12 to JP1-8, to get 5V from 24 to JP1-8? And if so, why does this pin have 5V, isn't it the original pin for the tach signal from the coil-? From what I understand, you no longer use that when you wire the hall signal to pin 25, Correct? I have at least 12 hours in the past 3 days researching, and have pages of notes, I just have a few holes in my notes, and want to fully understand why I am modding what I am modding. I am not just looking for free info hand-outs.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=82699#82699
Posted on msefi.com


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

Basically the original MS "tach" input was just that, an input for a signal right off the coil triggere. These tend to be very high frequency, high amplitude, but short duration signals, and the input circuit had a bunch of filtering to be able to get a nice trigger signal out of that. The "mods" to the board eliminate most of that due to a hall effect sensor having a nice square wave (or near) output that needs no or little conditioning. Make sense?








As far as running a V3 on a 16v it would be super easy. Build it with the VB coil driver and run that wire out to the negative terminal on the coil. Done! 3ms running, 6ms cranking, .5ms minimum dwell.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

I was gonna say.. why the hell does everyone expect all these details to just be handed to them. I'm happy to share info when I can.. for free and help out people who havnt done this before.. But at the same time if you are too lazy (or just dont understand it) to go and hunt for the info I actually sell pre-configured MS ECU's V2.2s and V3's with a pigtail style harness, wiring diagram and even pre-loaded settings so its basically plug/play as long as you can figure out some basic wiring.
I've shyed away from pushing my business on these forums since i'm here to help for free.. I dont even own an MS'd VW myself anymore though I do own 3 MS'd vehicles and have squirted at least 20more myself.
I will share the information when i have time.. and oddly all the information you guys are requesting about V2's is in this thread.. just read back from the start.. the V3's are more complicated and require different jumper settings to make work properly <otherwise you can end up with an inverted Tach signal that will give you timing signals that dont match up>..
VW's are nearly the easiest hall setup to get working.. 60deg BTDC trigger window, hook up your 4 window hall either directly to the ECU using the +5V as power for the hall as well as +5v for the old tach input <since you are now triggering on a ground and inverting the opto circuit it needs +5 or +12v on the other side>. Then its as easy as either running a V3 with the onboard ignition driver jumpered to either FIDLE or one of the LED's <LEDS are easier on a V3>, then jumper the ignition driver to its output and setup the dwell.
You also need to make sure you set it for an inverted output or you will burn out your coil driver in about 10seconds flat, <and turn dwell on>
If you just want to use FIDLE on a V2.2 or V3 just run the wire to the 7pin module on pin 4 and you are finished. 
Set your timing by setting the trigger in the spark settings to a fixed 10 or 15 or 20deg's <Whatever your motor will idle at> then whip out your timing gun WITH Advance and fire away at the engine while moving the dizzy to line up the TDC mark with the timing light.. you now have your timing fixed and can go back lock down the dizzy and set the timing number in the spark settings back to -10 so that it runs off the timing map.
I had to figure out this for myself long before the extra code even existed.. I had the first Hall triggered VW running the old MSnS code <MegasquirtNSpark> and believe me those instructions are way less friendly. 3 VW guys before me had given up saying it was impossible with our trigger angles in the dizzys we had but thats because the signals needed inverting.
It just bugs me when people think standalone should be another one of those things that gets handed to them.. If you cant figure out basic electronics, and spend some time using google, and the search functions on your local forums why would you expect others to give away the info free after they had to do exactly the same thing. 
MS is so cheap its brought EFI to the masses which is a really really good thing.. Unfortunately unless you are willing to put the time in to understand how this works yourself.. (It is documented fairly well compared to most other systems on the market) then you stand a pretty good chance of blowing up a motor at some point along the way.
Especially once you start playing with the Extra code.. and have to get the right settings files, to match the right version of megatune and if you get it off a version or two megatune will still work and give you values but may have corrupted all your fuel settings.. This stuff is not as easy as it sounds.. which is why the Extra code is often reffered to as beta or alpha.. If you dont have the time to learn then just go and buy a product from someone like SDS or 034EFI or hell drop a few k on a motec.


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

exactly what i wanted to say, just didn't have time to say it.


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## SlowCorrado (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I was gonna say.. why the hell does everyone expect all these details to just be handed to them. 
It just bugs me when people think standalone should be another one of those things that gets handed to them.. If you cant figure out basic electronics, and spend some time using google, and the search functions on your local forums why would you expect others to give away the info free after they had to do exactly the same thing. 

CdnDub and Midnight GLI,
While I sympathize with you on this issue, I also disagree to some extent. When I browse vortex I always look to help where I can. A great example would be the Kinetic VR Turbo thread. Kinetic doesn't offer OBD1 Dizzy software for their kit and many Corrado/Passat folks are left out in the cold. I did all the searches, asked local folks, and finally decided to convert my Corrado to OBDII. (Probably shoulda done MS)







There was no "guide", nobody else to help, etc... but I worked through it and the car runs great. As soon as it was done I let people know that it is an option and what is required to do it. Since then, I've responded to LOADS of PMs asking for help on this. It's all part of how I work on the Vortex.








Now, with that said in my defense, I was one of the folks asking for some help with a wiring diagram from a while ago. (My 1st MS is sitting behind be with the soldering iron heating up as I type this) I want to have a plan and have some knowledge before I go fully rewiring my old 16V. It's funny, but my modified diagram looks close to the new one that was recently posted. 








I seem to have the LC-1 wideband diagrammed correctly, but my largest sticking point is the distributor/V3 connection. That's why I would like to see what others have done and to hear what folks think is the "best". (because I sure as heck am NOT an expert at this)








My apologies if I came off as wanting everything handed to me. I'm merely looking for the opinions and experiences of peers. My thanks to you all, and everyone else who has helped me thus far.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

This is just one way to do it. I never got the point of bringing the 5v signal out on pin 27. It seemed a waste of a pin.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

I have provided and will continue to provide help.. I get PM's all the time asking me questions and I try to respond to all of them. I also tell people to email me all the time i've helped countless people not only with wiring but also with tuning at no profit to myself.
I am all for sharing information for free, and will have more and more information up on my website about specific configurations including wiring as I have the time to do so.. what Irks me are the people who Demand information on a timeline and yet have no willingness to go about finding it themselves.. If your on a timeline/deadline then you can figure it out yourself.. Otheriwse just be grateful that people are willing to help when they have time.
Its been a goal of mine for months to document the settings required, pictures of the board mods and the wiring information and put it up on my website along with MSQ settings files, copies of the firmware used and megatune version to make this as painless and simple as possible for everyone.
I'm not trying to suggest everyone go through trial by fire.. after all whats the point of everyone re-inventing the wheel.
AS far as your diagram goes. The V3 diagram shows the twisted pair required for a VR sensor <it doesnt show the sheild wire though>.
For the Hall you'd need 1 signal wire going back to pin 25, the power for the hall can come from pin 24 <which also will power the opto circuit on the ECU <origional tach input> the ground wire for the hall can go to any pin 7-19 i think <I cant recall which pins on the ground plane are now reserved but i recall it being between pins 1-6>
This requires board jumpers/mods which are fairly simple and i'll post later <i've got it all written down at home>. for the ignition output stuff you can either use the onboard VB921 driver and use Pin30 on the harness this will happily drive a 7pin module if you want to using no dwell control and with the output set to "regular/ non-inverted" if you want to drive the coil directly you could wire it to the coil and turn on dwell control and set the output to "inverted"
As for the fuel pump the ECU provides a ground wire.. you can hook this into the exisitng ground that CIS-E/Motronic/Digi provide to the fuse block to ground out the stock fuel pump, or you can wire up your own relay using the ECU ground to turn it on and off.
The LC-1 should easily be powered off the same circuit as you have it labelled and you just need to go into both megatune and the LC-1 configuration software, megatune needs the settings.ini filed changed to use the INnovative 0-5V output and on the innovative controller you need to change the curve to be Air fuel ratios, 0volts on the low side, 5V top side with 10:1 on the low end and 20:1 on the high end for all the numbers to match up when you try to tune.
That wiring works fine I wired an LC-1 into the Nissan I was working on this week using a very similar setup <just used the stock FP relay not an addon>
Dave


_Modified by CdnDub at 7:02 PM 11-1-2005_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Dave, quit posting to this thread and get that VR6 up and running, all this helping others isn't helping me a bit


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

hahaha.. I'm unfortunately waiting for the VR6 to be towed over.. as soon as it arrives its game on.. should only take a day or two.. i'm going to drop the oilpan and index the trigger wheel so we have accurate timing marks to go from as well.
The rest seems fairly simple.. build the ECU.. wire up a few of the LED's D14,D15,D16 with jumper wires from their resistors to the option X12,X13,X14 outputs or to the other spare output pins <if he wants boost control or rad fan control etc> I may need to change the transistors that normally drive the LED's they arent designed to handle any current.. It seems like the old ZTX450's are a better driver and will handle the load better.
Then you just set it for wheel decoder and enter the tooth number in software
that lines up for 60deg BTDC, count a few teeth back and enter that for the trigger start.. trigger return is the 60deg tooth.. and then you count around 120deg's and mark those teeth.. put them in the trigger B section and then for the third section count around another 120degs and put them there again.. then set your trigger angle to 60deg's
and wire up the outputs so that they match the firing order.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I may need to change the transistors that normally drive the LED's they arent designed to handle any current..

Clarification on this Dave... Lots of us have used the stock transistors for setting up the 4cyl and driving the stock VW ignition module. How is this much differant?
Also are you pulling the amp circuit out of the pack and driving it directly? Or are you going to use the coilpack without mods? I am hoping to go with it unmodded. I would LIKE to be able to just swap the twist plug over. Some of the guys still need to retain OBD-2 capability.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

That's how I was going to do it, I don't think the VR6 module needs much current at all to fire. Testing will tell though.
Thinking about it again I might want to go the VB921 route just to get rid of the igniter on the VR6 coilpack, but that wouldn't be plug and play with the stock stuff anymore. Boo!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

Yeah, I LOVE the stock setup for one nice detail... That twist plug is the BEST! With that I can pull a vr6 out in probally about an hour on an A2! We are refering to a non turbo VR of course. 
I wish the tranny and those sensors just untwisted with one plug! Anyways, its all acedemic right now. I gotta get the last of my installation issues figured out then I will worry about getting the engine online with the MS. I been WAY too busy with several other installs and projects to get back to finishing up the VR. I am hoping to be done with them in another week or so.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

I've just heard the new transistors used for the LED's can only handle a VERY small current.. basically that of an LED.. this may not even be enough to switch on/off the low power section for the ignitors.
We're talking less than 300ma on the new transistors.. you can drop in some ZTX450's for a few pennies instead that handle nearly 1amp
I agree I Like the Twist plug.. i'm going to try using it on the car i'm wiring up.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_ The V3 diagram shows the twisted pair required for a VR sensor <it doesnt show the sheild wire though>.
For the Hall you'd need 1 signal wire going back to pin 25, the power for the hall can come from pin 24 <which also will power the opto circuit on the ECU <origional tach input> the ground wire for the hall can go to any pin 7-19 i think <I cant recall which pins on the ground plane are now reserved but i recall it being between pins 1-6>
This requires board jumpers/mods which are fairly simple and i'll post later <i've got it all written down at home>.

I under stand the vr sensor stuff no problem. I'm runnig a 60-2 wheel right now so I know about the sheilded wires for the vr sensor. the only think that I don't understand is the board jumpers/mods stuff for the hall effect. 
I'm having mine built so I know that that question is going to be asked. my main question is when you assemble the v3 by way of the assembly instructions on the msefi website how does your mods to run the hall effect differ? because in the instructions it says how to setit up to run a hall effect. so does your mods differ from the way its setup. I know v2.2 is different because you have to mod it to run halleffect but v3 is already setup for it.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

lol i'll answer that with a list of mods when i get home..
The difference is triggering on rising edge or falling edge
Basically you get a high/low signal out of the hall..
either ground or whatever the pullup voltage is +5 or +12V
depending on how you trigger the opto circuit <regular mode is to trigger on a voltage spike i think> you will get inverted windows.
You want it to trigger on the open spaces in your dizzys window not the closed ones or your trigger angle will be way off and wont actually have enough time to calculate spark advance.
Now i know this has actually changed in the newer code and that it will calculate the next spark rather than the one immediately in front of it but the trigger angle would still be significantly different and i'm not sure what those values are.
As i've said in the past I like to power my hall with the ECU so i also add the wires/jumpers for that.. Its not hard stuff and i'll post it in a few hours.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Dave, I just want to clarify what you're saying: the transistor that drives the LED's on the V3 is different from the V2.2 and going to the older, more powerful one will work OK? Thanks in advance for the detail http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

bump


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

any news cdndub on the mods that need to be made to the ms v3?


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (tyrone27)*

He is down in "the lab" right now. I bet it kinda looks like Freinkensteins lair but with a car sitting down their...








Damn, I wonder how much noise a Tesla Coil at full tilt sitting say ten feet from the car, would introduce? -=runs into basement and ya hear crashing=-










_Modified by T3Bunny at 9:36 PM 11-4-2005_


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Do I need to keep the jetronic box to use my knock-sensor ignition? (87 16v)


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diddle)*

I don't THINK so. The jet box would be on the drivers side. Look on the passenger side. There should be a smaller box over there. It looks like a slightly smaller version of the bigger ECU. It will have a hard vaccume line going to it. Thats the knock box. If its not there... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Ya I have the knock box, I dont think I need the jetronic, just wanted to check.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diddle)*

sorry for the delay i'll do up a diagram and quick post at minimum this weekend and try to get some photos up.. been a crazy week








lol the image of me having a frankensteinlike workshop is funny.. i've actually got a shop for electronics fab and then another space to work on the cars.. Electronics and metal fabrication work dont generally play nice together..


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diddle)*

Somewhaer I have the wiring diagram for an 87 with knock ignition saved... I will pop it your way when I dig it up!


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Yeah, I was wondering why my idea to wirelesly enable the controls for the Tesla coil didn't work...


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Somewhaer I have the wiring diagram for an 87 with knock ignition saved... I will pop it your way when I dig it up!

Thankyou


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diddle)*

Found, its a PDF though.... I got a whole pile of them for the 87. PM me with your email and I will toss them your way for decifering. I think I also have one buried here in regards to modding the Knock sensor ignition...


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Apparently my pics of the V3 board mods are missing so i'll take more next time i do one.. For now heres a written description of what to do.. and a pic of the V2.2 mod that ends up wired the same way at the harness.. <Pin 24 is Power for the hall +5V> and pin 25 is hall signal
V3 info
TACHSELECT is jumpered to OPTOIN
Next run a Jumper wire from the +5V pad above the proto area and solder it to the jumper you just installed between those two 
That gives you +5V to power Tach/Opto Circuit hall like in the past by running the jumper like in MidnightGLi's diagram
You will be powering the Hall from this output also known as the Tach Pin on the wiring diagram
Jumper XG1 to X11 <aka IAC-1A on the V3's labels> This will get used for the Opto Signal from the dizzy. Run the middle wire from your dizzy to this input.. also known as pin 25
jumper TSEL to Opto-out
And you should be finished

The reason you wire it this way even on the V3's is that you need to invert the signal from the hall otherwise you will trigger when the window is in the wrong place and wont have a nice solid 60deg trigger window.
And as promised heres a photo of a modified V2.2










_Modified by CdnDub at 6:38 PM 11-6-2005_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Good stuff Dave!!
In other news, if anyone wants a nice, built V2.2 with flyback board, my personal one is available. PM me for details. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

V2.2 conversion with pics.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2278613


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (OttawaG60)*

thats a great writeup too.. I didnt mention that in the V2.2 i just used the FIDLE output as the spark out.. easier and most Vw's dont seem to need a FIDLE valve.
For the V3 you need to run a jumper wire between the LED and the IGBT in and jumper IGBT out so you get a coil driver output on pin 30.


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_thats a great writeup too.. I didnt mention that in the V2.2 i just used the FIDLE output as the spark out.. easier and most Vw's dont seem to need a FIDLE valve.


But it sure does help with the Canadian morning starts!


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (flanders)*

flanders, in sub -30'c is the fiddle required? I mean, will the car stall out without one?


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*

Guys guys, USE the VW auxillary air valve! Simple, easy, anyone can set it up, and it doesn't take ANY resources of the MS to use it!
ALL of the little tricks above can be done without ANY involvment of the ms. Look at how VW set up the mid 80's CIS cars. None of them had this crap controlled by the ecu. And all the bits are already in place if you snag them off one of those cars.
Disadvantage is looks. Yeah, its UGLY. If you want this stuff to look clean, then you need the Bosch PWM valve and set that up. I have my internals modded for this already, but it will be a little while before the car is modified for running it. 
In the meantime I have the auxillary air valve with a breather filter stuffed onto it. Its hooked up to the fuel injector relay. I popped two brake booster check valves inline to it so it couldn't dump boost. Works great!


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (cdn20VALVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cdn20VALVE* »_flanders, in sub -30'c is the fiddle required? I mean, will the car stall out without one?

yes. I started the car down to -40C and it worked (even used a car starter).
I wouldn't recommend using it without a FIDLE.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (OttawaG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OttawaG60* »_I wouldn't recommend using it without a FIDLE.

I'll second that, my car is a pig to start in the cold mornings without one. I figured i'd run without the FIDLE as a test run for when I go to ITB's and wouldn't have one, now i'm thinking about trying to plumb one in to all four runners for the itb's


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (martyn_16v)*

thats all really good feedback guys.. i'm a little spoiled on the west coast.. we only ever see -10 celcius in the winters.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (martyn_16v)*

There is a code out there for additional ASE when you hit floodclear three times before cranking the engine over. It works pretty good! I think all the new codes have it, but 025p-ALS definatly has it, and a cool AntiLagSystem for us boost junkies!


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## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Is anyone running the flyback board AND the mods that CdnDub laid out earlier in this thread?
I've run the same MSnS circuit without the flyback board with no probs for the last 18 months, but for the life of me I cannot get it to work with my new flyback board. 
With the exception of the injectors, everything else is currently working, so I know it's something in the injector output circuit. If anyone can offer some input, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks,
Iain


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Hotrodjrod)*

I have a few customers running flybacks and hall setup using the exact mods i've laid out.. also the V3's have a built in flyback board and they work fine too..
I'm guessing its something with your flyback board and not the hall mods.. do you still get an RPM input and just no injector outputs?


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## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
I'm guessing its something with your flyback board and not the hall mods.. do you still get an RPM input and just no injector outputs?

Yes. All of the inputs, including RPM work well, it's just the injector outputs. Sigh, I'll have to keep trouble shooting...


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

Why did you suddenly decide to use the flyback? Did you switch over to low impedance injectors?


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I may need to change the transistors that normally drive the LED's they arent designed to handle any current.. It seems like the old ZTX450's are a better driver and will handle the load better.

Dave, some of us are still confused over this... I have two a v2.2 and a v3.0 and both appear to have used the same transistor for these. Are the ZTX450's the metal can ones? I can't see the numbers on mine without taking the ecu apart... But I am fairly certain they are the same as the v2.2.
Hows the VR6 stuff going anyways? I finally will be getting back to mine today. Now that I made a new subframe to get the radiator to fit into it... I should be done with all the remaining swap bits this weekend and ready to start the MS setup. 
And my camera FINALLY arrived, without an upload cable... I will take pictures soon as I figure out how to get them into the pc.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

The exact Transistors i was talking about are the LED ones.. but they are used for
Q6,Q7,Q8,Q10,Q13,Q14,Q15,Q19 on the V3's the part is 2N3904FS-ND
and its rated for 200ma which can sometimes not be enough to turn on even a relay.
If you want to use the LEDS to drive optional outputs other than a VB921 <which doesnt need this much current to turn on> then you should swap in some extra 
ZTX450's which are also on the V3 BOM list and are used for Q2 and Q4 and they handle 1amp at 45volts if you need even more power then you can run one of the power darlingtons like a TIP125 or TIP127 <also used on the BOM list>
Just order 3 extra ones and use them for the LED drivers.. then they can handle any optional current like a relay if you want to use them.. or you can add another transistor after it to handle the current.
again this is only if you are making mods that arent part of this thread so far.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

I just remembered why i got on the topic of the ZTX450's.. i dont think 200ma would be enough current capacity to drive the ignitors on a VR6 coilpack.. but 1amp certainly should be.. they probably only need half an amp or less to turn on/off but having the buffer is nice.
This way you could run the ignitors right off the LED transistors output for D14, D15,D16 on the V3 and not have to bother with any of the VB921 ignition drivers.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

I am setting up a MS 2.2 for MegaSquirt'N'Spark. Going by this diagram, I did these jumpers. I have done several MS 2.2's for fuel only, and a couple MS2 3.0's for full fuel and spark. But now I want to see what the inexpensive 2.2 can offer as far as spark control. I drew a box in red around what I think they are refering to by "D8 Zener Diode". I got this board pre-built, and believe it is already jumped as per what is suggested to do. If I misunderstood any of these directions, or you see something wrong, please let me know. Thanks for any help. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

that box is D8 and a jumper is just fine..
If you compare the work you've done to my photo.. you can save yourself some time and jumpers and not have to use up another output by just running the jumper to the leg of the diode to bring power in on the origional tach circuit.. then you can use the tach wire to provide power for the hall.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

I see something potentialy very bad.... But not your fault. Who built this? The top two pictures show those FET's spaced off the endplate. They need to be mounted flush to it for heat absorbtion. I used thermaltake compound on mine (for when we overclock it of course!). 
Dave and some of the electonn cowboys out there can tell you if its safe enough to get away with, but I sure as hell would't have mine that way. I would post some pictures of mine, but no hosting site... I will email you some.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_I see something potentialy very bad.... But not your fault. Who built this? The top two pictures show those FET's spaced off the endplate. They need to be mounted flush to it for heat absorbtion. I used thermaltake compound on mine (for when we overclock it of course!). 
Dave and some of the electonn cowboys out there can tell you if its safe enough to get away with, but I sure as hell would't have mine that way. I would post some pictures of mine, but no hosting site... I will email you some.

This unit is not mine, it is a friends unit. He got it off of ebay, and it is nowhere near the quality of the ones I recently got from Fire&Fuel. I did not even notice that. I also noticed that many of the pins sre soldered only on the bottom of the board. I am not new to wiring and electrical, but am fairly new to circuit boards. It seems that it should be soldered on the side of the board that has the printed part of the circuit right? As the circuit is not printed all of the way through the hole I would imagine. Sorry if I am wrong and that sounds stupid, but I really want to understand this properly, and several of you seem to know your ****. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

Actually when hand soldering, you usually only apply the solder to the 'underside' not the topside at all. There are cases where you do apply to top and bottom but it's rare, and usually only on bigger joints.
Take a few macro pics of your board and I can judge if it's a good job or not. The solder should flow through the joint to the topside and look nice and shiny. If it's not, it's a bad joint and should be re-done. 
Luckily or not I spent a few of my younger years as an electronics tech and can do these through hole boards like it's nobody's business.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

I am having a hard time getting a good close up pic, but this is the best of the ones I took....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

From the looks of it, alot of the joints look not-so-great.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_From the looks of it, alot of the joints look not-so-great.









Thats what I though. I think I am going to have to resolder it. What is a good resonably priced soldering iron to use for circuit board work? I got one from radioshack earlier today, and the very tip does not get hot enough to melt solder, so I have tuse the side, so I stopped using it, as that is clearly a bad idea. Thanks for looking at this.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

The Radio Sheet ones are just that... You can probally get away with it if you let it heat up for about 20 minutes first. 
I recomend going to Sears. Not neccisarly the Cheapest location, but they do carry Weller pencil irons cheap. I will not use anything else. You can get the less expensive plug in style, but it has to heat up for a good bit (anywhere from 5-15 minutes) or....
For ESD (electro static discharge) protection, I use butane powered irons. At Sears I snagged the Weller Portasol kit (not the cheapie $25 iron, but the @70 kit with the better iron) I chose this one due to it being instantly avalible (you can get the same online for $20-25 less then add shipping...) and due to it having easy to get (again, online) replacment and additional tips. The thing is at working temputure in 20-30 seconds!
I did a whole ECU with the above one! I also have a Weller PyroPen thats VERY VERY nice! I use that one (again butane powered) for most of my production work. It has a MUCH larger fuel capacity and doesn't get uncomfortable after running for 6 hours straight... The Portasol you have to let cool down every coulpe hours. The portasol kit stays in my pc/electoronics emergency tool box. I usaly use it to do wiring in the car.
I REALY recomend the Portasol. You can get the best professional one from the Snap-On tool truck (payment plans are cool!). Its badged as a Blue Point. Look at the PortaSol first so you know what it looks like though. This one has a bigger tank than the Sears version (Sears's is labled a Weller) and it gets a little hotter. ALL of the good butane ones you can adjust the heat on. The portasol will become one of your best freinds for doing wiring!
The Pyropen is better for doing LOTS of production work and working on more delicate computer motherboards. Like when ya fry crap overclocking it...










_Modified by T3Bunny at 11:44 PM 11-12-2005_


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

I actually have the blue point one, but it has been nothing but problems (Wont stay lit, etc) I am sure i just got a bad one. I am probably going to just pick up a weller unit from sears then, weller has always been good to me.


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*mk4 vr6 coilpack pinout*

I've got some information that might help people with mk4 style vr6 coilpacks. 
I'm using the 5-pin coilpack found in the 2001 GTi vr6... I think you could find it in the 99 and the 00 as well.
The pinout is as follows:
1: +12v
2: coil1
3: coil2
4: coil3
5: gnd
This, you could have easily found out from the bently... however, what's important is what triggers these things. I was under the impression that you had to ground out the signal pin (2,3, or 4) in order to get that coil to fire. However, what I found is that you need to apply a +12v source to it in order to charge the primary coil... I looked at the bently, and the signal pins go right to the j220 (ecu), so I figured the ECU surely wouldn't be grounding the secondary coil through it. And sure enough, when I tapped the signal wire with a +12v source, it sparked. 
You can re-create my setup by using a computer power supply, wiring it up, and hitting one of the signal pins with a +12 source from the same power supply. 
I think that the power supply I'm using didn't have a good enough ground to discharge the secondary coil on the pack.. so if you put a fairly good sized piece of metal (the MS aluminum case worked for me) up to it, it should discharge on to that. If you want a REAL show, though... just put two plug ends about an inch away from each other (from the same coil tower), and let 'er rip... it'll spark at least a good inch, if not more.


_Modified by majic at 11:21 AM 11-13-2005_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: mk4 vr6 coilpack pinout (majic)*

I would be surprised if the ECU was outputing a 12V square wave to trigger the coilpack but since i dont have a car currently to test that theory with using a scope.. i'm curious if you would try the same test using the +5V line from the same computer power supply..
Do you get a spark ? MS can do either trigger style using the LED outputs.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: mk4 vr6 coilpack pinout (CdnDub)*

not sure if anyones paying much attention to the MSefi forums but James just released 027a of the Extra code which adds some pretty cool stuff..
6cyl cop support
255 count wheel decoder
a rewrite of the 2nd trigger decode section and a few other interesting things.
I'm going to load it up on the SR20DET shortly and see how the COP stuff improves or if its worse.
the 255 count wheel decode section is interesting though.. it means we could potentially squirt 5cyl audi's now with COP


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_I actually have the blue point one, but it has been nothing but problemS.

Dude, bitch at the Snap-On guy then! I have heard a few stories about people getting bad ones... Also if the ignitor is out of alingnment it can be a pain. The Blue Point one IS a Weller actually! But then Sears is pretty easy about replacing bad stuff and most of you BP kit will work on the Sears one.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Dave, thanks for the tip! I am there EVERY day but I still can't keep up with the developments. And I was offline yesterday so I am REALY behind









Hey, anyone using the LM-1 here? I can't for the LIFE of me get mine working correctly. I have the stuff set in MT in the .ini and in the exhaust settings. But for some reason the LM-1 gauge and the MT gauge just won't jive. As far as I know its all set up correctly...
I am thinking its perhaps a bad ground inducing voltazge into it... But thats my ONLY guess at this point. I am going to try that soon and see if it helps any.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

I know it has been a while but here are my ALPHA-N maps for the 16v running GSXR throttlebodies with EDIS.
*Advance table*
http://dev1.bubblemedia.co.uk/...9.vex
*Fuel table*
http://dev1.bubblemedia.co.uk/...9.vex

*MSQ if required*
http://dev1.bubblemedia.co.uk/...9.msq


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_
Hey, anyone using the LM-1 here? I can't for the LIFE of me get mine working correctly. I have the stuff set in MT in the .ini and in the exhaust settings. But for some reason the LM-1 gauge and the MT gauge just won't jive. As far as I know its all set up correctly...
I am thinking its perhaps a bad ground inducing voltazge into it... But thats my ONLY guess at this point. I am going to try that soon and see if it helps any.









I'm running an LC-1, should be the same setup for the MSnS.
DId you set up the LM-1 to do 10:1 0v, 20:1 5v?


----------



## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_I am setting up a MS 2.2 for MegaSquirt'N'Spark. Going by this diagram, I did these jumpers. I have done several MS 2.2's for fuel only, and a couple MS2 3.0's for full fuel and spark. But now I want to see what the inexpensive 2.2 can offer as far as spark control. I drew a box in red around what I think they are refering to by "D8 Zener Diode". I got this board pre-built, and believe it is already jumped as per what is suggested to do. If I misunderstood any of these directions, or you see something wrong, please let me know. Thanks for any help. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif











































http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2278613


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: mk4 vr6 coilpack pinout (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I would be surprised if the ECU was outputing a 12V square wave to trigger the coilpack .

I bench tested the VR6 coil awhile ago and I would swear they would fire on ground to those pins. 
As for the soldering iron, I've been using the same 30W Radio Shack "junk" for about four years now. Just keep the tips clean and it works great. Remember this is coming from a guy that once used a $10k soldering station daily.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I did get the coil to fire. I'll retry the setup with a +5v trigger on the signal lines. When I tried hitting the signal pins with a ground, it didn't do anything.
This is on the 5 pin coilpack too, mind you. 
need_a_vr6: did you benchmark the old pre-99 pack?


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

Alright, i have a MS version 2.2 that i assembled. I did the modifications to it to make it MSnS. Where do i download the MSnS-e firmware?


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Try here: http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/files/


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (OttawaG60)*

The default setup for the LC-1 is slightly differant cause it sposedly has a bigger range window... But yes,
# set INNOVATE_0_5_LINEAR "Innovate, PLX 0-5V 10-20:1 AFR"
I just set the input to be 10 and 5 to be 20 in the aux 2 program out section (in the LMConfig301 program). I have aux 1 left at its default for running my nb gauge... Come to think of it I think my NB Cyberdine air fuel gauge is feeding me crap also?!
I am stil going back to the original thought and my only guess is a messed up power or ground. I am going to try relocating the ground to the same point my main engine ground and everything else is grounded to. Perhaps I will toss another battery in the car and hook the LM-1 up to that one directly also to see if it helps fix this weirdness.










_Modified by T3Bunny at 10:51 AM 11-14-2005_


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_Try here: http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/files/

Thanks!
So do i need to have fuel set up for the spark to work? Basically i am trying to set this up on my work bench, and don't feel like wiring up coolant temp sensors and all that stuff, I want to wire up the hall sender, power, ground and an ignition module. When i turn the distributer, it should come up on the MS screen. I have it all wired up, and it doesnt do that. The RPM guage is kinda dark (purple), so is something wrong?
The setup currently:
MS 2.2, converted to MSnS using MidnightGLI's diagram (Jumper X11 & XG1, Jumper X12 & JP1-8, Jumper 27 & 24, Jumper D8).
Then i took +5v vRef for the hall sender from pin 26, which is intended for the TPS, but it seems that everyone else is taking the 5v from pin 24?? 
I used a common ground to ground the hall sender. I fed the middle hall sender wire to pin 25. 
I gave the ignition module +12v on pin 4, ground on pin 2, and connected MS pin 30 to ignition module pin 6.
I then powered it up, opened up Megatune with the MSnS-e code, and the RPM meter is purple and doesnt do anything when i turn the distributer. 
Any ideas?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (xpalendocious)*

Hey, pm me your email and I will toss a writeup your way on setting up the v2.2. 
The purpose of the stimulator is so you can run the ECU on the bench. It CAN be modded to work with the hall mods and is not hard to do.


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Hey, pm me your email and I will toss a writeup your way on setting up the v2.2. 
The purpose of the stimulator is so you can run the ECU on the bench. It CAN be modded to work with the hall mods and is not hard to do. 

email sent, thanks. I am not using the Stim for anything anymore...


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (xpalendocious)*

Yeah, thats the reason for the stim. Its a bonous to use it for setting up and testing as you build the ECU. I have like three of them now. I have one thats unmodded for building the ECU's, then I have two modded for setups already built.
I have been asked before if the code version matters. NO, but its sorta linked together. You need a stock stim to set up and test as you build. Many people then upgrade the firmware and change the setup for spark. Frequently the stim will no longer work, but not because of the code change but because of the hardware mods and changes. 
The differance between MsnS and MsnSe is quality. MsnSe has a LOT MORE STUFF in it! MsnS is like the very base code for the extras.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

T3Bunny,
What are the stim mods for MSnS'e ? I keep thinking that my stim is borked because it doesn't read RPM, but maybe I need to modify it.
Thanks,
Iain


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

I don't have a website yet... Toss me your email and I will send you the writeup. I have two offers out there to host this, and it will likely be on the net shortly. Its helped a few people out and all that stuff. Hopefully more can use it! Its for the V2.2 setup BUT the stimulator mods would be the same for any 8V or 16V running fuel and spark with Dave's setup. .
I know how it is, I was once one of them in need of LOTS o help. CdnDub has feilded some weird questions from me. I figure if I can do it and share it with others, any one can!








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting thought... I am putting a V3.0 togehter for my Pops Cabby. Its a mild 8V engine swap higher compression, cam and exhaust. But I am wondering if ANYONE has ideas on a way to interface with the Hall while leaving the Hall hooked up to the ignition? 
I want to make use of a factory knock sensor ignition. For the most part I don't need to fiddle timing. But I am going to be playing with making a new water injection settup and will want to be ABLE to fiddle timing. There realy isn't a good reason to do this, except for the sake of experimentation and using parts I have here. I do NOT want to mess with the knock system on the MS site yet. Too many variables to add to the equation.
I have a vauge idea that I think would work. Set the V3.0 up with the dizzy and hall like we do the V2.2. Use the output out of the MS to "emulate" a hall signal out to control the ignition module hooked up to the knock sensor system. This way I can in theory use the MS as a pass through system and set it for zero (or something) until I want to fiddle with the ignition map.

The issues I am having are, will this be doable from a MS software standpoint? How do I, or CAN I make the signal out look like the hall signal coming in? I think ita a fab idea since we have a KNOWN GOOD working knock system that even has its own diagnostics!


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

T3,
my email is ijcameron -at- hotmail.com
thanks!
iain


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

Sent!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_need_a_vr6: did you benchmark the old pre-99 pack?

I think the one I tested was off of an 00, it has the rounded connector on the coil amp instead of the square one. I'll see if I can't duplicate my results this weekend.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (ijcameron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ijcameron* »_T3Bunny,
What are the stim mods for MSnS'e ? I keep thinking that my stim is borked because it doesn't read RPM, but maybe I need to modify it.
Thanks,
Iain

From pages 6 and 7 of this very thread...

_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_








I've just modded my MS to the above diagram (except i've jumpered JP1-8 straight to pin 24, as I need X12/pin 27 for another output). I've also had to mod the stim to get it to work correctly.
At first I tried jumpering pins 7 and 25 on the stim as mentioned in the MS'n'S setup page, but this still left me with no rpm input on the stim. Looking at the schematics, doing this means that when T1 (on the stim) is active it is shorting the 5V from pin 24 directly to ground, and surprise surprise T1 was getting red hot very quickly








What i've done now is to cut the track from the end of R9 to pin 24, and jumper R9 to pin 25 instead. The jumper from pin 25 to pin 7 is also removed. Stim now works fine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








Bad pic of a filthy board, but it shows the cut at least. The lower cut is the one you need to make for the rpm, and the short green wire is the jumper to pin 25.
The other mods on that stim are for wideband O2 simulation (with another couple of mods on the top side).


----------



## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

guys I need a 16v turbo spark map, I would appreciate if u have a spark and fuel map to share.
injectors are 400cc inj. high impedance, and engine is a 2.0 16v turbocharged. using MSnS-E on a V2.2.
best regards
Nabil


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*vr6 coilpack interface*

Hey guys -- I got my '01 GTi Vr6 coilpack interfaced with megasquirt... I attatched a drawing of the schematic that I used. Nothing fancy. The resistors I used are 1k ohm, but I'm sure you could use bigger without any problem.
r26, r27, and r29 is a soldered connection to the top of those resistors (when looking at the MS board with the "megasquirt" silk screen at the bottom of the board). I'm using MSI v3 too, FYI.
It runs great (I have the coilpack sitting on my desk with the sparkplugs disharging on an aluminum case). I'm running 3ms of dwell, or it will max out my power supply around 3000 rpm's (and it will shut off, heh).
Anyone else running this setup?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: vr6 coilpack interface (majic)*

not yet.. sounds like you may be the first.. how are you triggering the coils though? just using the stim or do you have a trigger wheel or dizzy mounted to a drill/motor
Thats great news.. so that does mean you can trigger the 01 GTI coilpack with a +5V line instead of +12?


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Right now I'm just using the stim. And yes, you can use +5v to trigger the coilpack. 
I'm hoping to see if I can interface MS with my car sometime in the upcoming month.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*

Does anyone know if theres going to be a big differance between the 01 and the earlier say 98 packs?
My VR install is moving forward again FINALLY. Weather is going to be the equalizer though...


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

i think the 93-early 99 pack is one style and late 99-02 was a different. only differece is the plug.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (bonesaw)*

this issue isn't spark related, but it's really irritating and i haven't found a resolve yet...
during cold starts (not really cold, like 80 ambient) the idles pefectly with decent a/f, but under moderate to heavy throttle movement the car immediatly stalls. it'll rev just fine if i give it very light throttle. i'm thinking it has to do with my accel enrichment, i've tried changing the cold accel multi and cold accel enrich with no change. it's only really and issue for the first few minutes but it drives me crazy. anyone shed any light on this? BTW, i'm not running any sort of idle control valve nor do i plan to.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Has anyone used the DIY-WBO2 kit before? I just ordered one.
http://wbo2.com I got the DIY 02-A0 kit. I'm going to see if it'll fit in the MS case, if so, then it'll be a cool addition for an integrated controller. I'm probably going to order the display for it later (probably numbers as opposed to the circular gauge). My only problem is -- where to mount it in the vr6 dash? I've got heated seats, and ASR, so I have no blank plugs in the dash below the intake ducts. I really don't want to lop a big hole in my panneling under the steering wheel. I guess maybe I could get an A-pod mounted one?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*

Its a TechEdge. I have heard LOTS of good things about them. Personally I use Innovate's LM-1 because I don't leave mine as a permanent install and use it in multiple cars. I Would do the "***** thing" and use the pillar pod. I even MADE one for my Rabbit when I found out none were avalible! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I DO NOT RECOMEND putting it in the MS case. WAY TOO much potential for introducing noise. 


_Modified by T3Bunny at 10:05 AM 11-17-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Interesting thought... I am putting a V3.0 togehter for my Pops Cabby. Its a mild 8V engine swap higher compression, cam and exhaust. But I am wondering if ANYONE has ideas on a way to interface with the Hall while leaving the Hall hooked up to the ignition? 
I want to make use of a factory knock sensor ignition. For the most part I don't need to fiddle timing. But I am going to be playing with making a new water injection settup and will want to be ABLE to fiddle timing. There realy isn't a good reason to do this, except for the sake of experimentation and using parts I have here. I do NOT want to mess with the knock system on the MS site yet. Too many variables to add to the equation.
I have a vauge idea that I think would work. Set the V3.0 up with the dizzy and hall like we do the V2.2. Use the output out of the MS to "emulate" a hall signal out to control the ignition module hooked up to the knock sensor system. This way I can in theory use the MS as a pass through system and set it for zero (or something) until I want to fiddle with the ignition map.

The issues I am having are, will this be doable from a MS software standpoint? How do I, or CAN I make the signal out look like the hall signal coming in? I think ita a fab idea since we have a KNOWN GOOD working knock system that even has its own diagnostics!









What?! No ideas out there guys?


----------



## Whitsend (Jun 10, 2004)

*Lets back up a little*

Very interested in the MSII. Just beginning to research how it applys and installs on my 2.0 16 valve (GLI). My first question is what do i use for a fuel rail and injectors? 
Cn't believe i hadn't heard of this before, sounds like a cool project. Haven't heard anything bad yet!


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Damn... then that foils my entire plan! Where am I going to put this SOB now?
I might put the visual display to the far left of my dash right against the windshield... I don't know where else I could put it







If I had enough balls... and there were a way to turn it off -- I would install it in my instrament cluster, right above the trip computer... but I know that would lead to endless headaches


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (majic)*

hi guys. I'm getting Megasquirt v2.2 tomorrow. well I'm sending the money for it tomorrow I'll be meeting up and actually getting in in my hands on sunday. I'm going to be installing it in a scirocco 16v that has TEC2 engine management already in it. here is what I have:
ignition module
16v spark plugs
coil
MS V2.2
now MS V2.2 assembled I'm getting is already setup for spark. the guy was going to run it on a 8v scirocco.
here is a wiring digram I have from here:








the harness connector coming off the 7-pin module has 4 wires. but here is my question where does the wire from the TACHOMETER on the dashboard get its signal from?
I already have a 1.8 16v megasquirt file so I can start the car. I'm hoping to start this install next week. does anyone know what else I would need before I start the installation?


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_
the harness connector coming off the 7-pin module has 4 wires. but here is my question where does the wire from the TACHOMETER on the dashboard get its signal from?


The (-) side of the coil.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

ok so dashboard tach can read directly off coil?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Just a note if you have Tec2 already you could easily keep the 60-2 trigger wheel and sensor and coilpack and swap an MSV3 in in its place but if you want simpler than triggering off the hall is an easy way to go.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

well msv3 would require me to get a new coil pack because tec2 coilpacks are built to the tec2. also I'm trying to get away from using the crank sensor because of the price and time to replace the electromotive sensor. if I can get the vw distributor to work it would be better because I can have a few distributors on hand.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

the V2.2 and VW hall sensor dizzy setup works very well and is well understood and documented. I dont think you'll have many issues.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Lets back up a little (Whitsend)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Whitsend* »_My first question is what do i use for a fuel rail and injectors?

Unscrew your injector inserts and screw in the digifant ones. For injectors, usally people use the ones with Barbs on the end for the 16v setups. Then use a fuel rail with barbs. I have a Fiat one that should work.


_Modified by T3Bunny at 10:11 PM 11-17-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_Damn... then that foils my entire plan! Where am I going to put this SOB now?








They sensored Ric--er! OMFG thats fekkin funny!








Did you get the round gauge display? If not, get it cause its awsome! Stuff it in a pillar pod and go eat some Chinese food!








You might also be able to replace your upshift indicator section with the display. I am sure you could whip up something to make it work well. I don't know WHY you would want to turn it off, but likely thats easily done. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_Has anyone used the DIY-WBO2 kit before? I just ordered one.
http://wbo2.com I got the DIY 02-A0 kit. I'm going to see if it'll fit in the MS case, if so, then it'll be a cool addition for an integrated controller. I'm probably going to order the display for it later 

I have an earlier DIY-WBO2 from about a year ago. it's a more complicated build than the Megasquirt, and you need to calibrate the sensor (which was a little tricky for me - the calibration came out differently each time I did it).
It was about an 8 - 10 hour build for me.
The WBO2 board is pretty compact - you might be able to fit it in th esame case, not too sure about the noise issue.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

I assembled a TE 2A0 and it's about 2x-3x harder then the MS. Lost more components, and tighter packed.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm not seeing how noise would be an issue.. there's not many high-power applications on the MS board... nor are there really high frequency applications on the TE-2A0 that would be susceptable to RF interference from the MS board
If it's harder, it's better.. I need something to do, because I'm getting pretty board.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_I'm getting pretty board.









Board eh?!
The V3.0 MS ecu's are deffinatly more of a challenge to build. Try one of them! Or if all eles fails, put MS on your lawnmower! I keep looking at those off road dune buggies/go carts that have become so popular lately.... I need one, a turbo, and spare MS...


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Jamie, 
I'm starting to feel the need to get an MS setup myself...


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_Jamie, 
I'm starting to feel the need to get an MS setup myself...










NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it isn't so!








Dan


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Yo Derrick,
We'll talk on Sunday.
Hooking up the ignition is simple as can be. Stock distributor, stock ignition module, few changes in wiring and the MS will already be prepped for the setup.
Dan


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it isn't so!








Dan

Don't worry knowing Peter he'll just use it to run the lambda frequency valve.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_Jamie, 
I'm starting to feel the need to get an MS setup myself...









This is WAY too funny! I was hoping we would convert you to the darkside eventually! Hey, I trade you a bulit ECU for a kit?! Damn, I even come install it for ya!


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I tell ya Jamie, I'm sure we could work something out... but before I convert to MS, you'll have to swear off turbos forever (in writing) and convert to a twin screw first


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

Thats just downright CRUEL.... Making me CHOOSE between them?







Now if ya had offered me this a while BACK before I knew the evils of silent running turbos till ya smack the pedal.... Its a DRUG MAN! Besides, I can still pretend with a Turbo that it gets goog gas mileage if I keep my foot outa boost (YEAH RRRIIIGHT!)








I am greedy! I want one (or even two...) of each!


_Modified by T3Bunny at 5:32 PM 11-19-2005_


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

ok I have a good question. if you are tuning a car for a curtain AFR at cruise and boost where is the AFR table on MT. I installed MT to view through it and it doesn't have afr table. do you need to have a MS hooked up to view it?


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Thats just downright CRUEL.... Making me CHOOSE between them?







Now if ya had offered me this a while BACK before I knew the evils of silent running turbos till ya smack the pedal.... Its a DRUG MAN! Besides, I can still pretend with a Turbo that it gets goog gas mileage if I keep my foot outa boost (YEAH RRRIIIGHT!)








I am greedy! I want one (or even two...) of each!
_Modified by T3Bunny at 5:32 PM 11-19-2005_

There ya go... confirmation that you need some turbo rehab







As they say the first step is to know you have a problem lol...


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

I am confused by this question... I assume you HAVE a MS in the car right? MT will work without being hooked into a MS but unless its hooked up OR you opem a .msq you will not see anything at first. You have a bunch of settings here and ther in MT to set to get the AFR tables active.
The MegaSquirt and MegaTune do NOT have AFR tables active by default. You HAVE to have a wideband hooked up and working correctly to make use of the AFR tables.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_There ya go... confirmation that you need some turbo rehab







As they say the first step is to know you have a problem lol...

Hey, who let this nutjob loose in here ANYWAYS?!








Sayin I need rehab... Isn't that like the dealer telling the Junkie he has a problem?


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

don't have MS yet. getting it friday assembled. I have a narrow band 02 sensor. so I wouldn't be able to tune the car for afr with it?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

NO AND DO NOT EVEN TRY! I actually start my base VE tuning with a NB sensor first. Use a NB and MST3K. 
Derrick, I assume you have a turbo on the back of that 16V? If so the safest thing to do is to set it up so it can't boost until you get the base VE setup. You can doo this with a fuel and spark cut at 1psi in the MT program. Or you can lock the wastegate wide open. That alters your actual VE table slightlt and you will have to retune the Base VE slightly after you get the gate closed back up.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

To clarify things a bit, what your tuning for with a NB sensor is for the stoich switchpoint. Basicaly 14.7. This gets your VE tables roughed in. BUT its roughing them in to the 14.7. You can then MANUALLY go in and fiddle the settings in the upper reagons with a little math, OR better yet get a wideband. If you tuning your own turbo rig, its FOOLISH NOT to get a wideband unless you REALY REALY know your stuff. I am decent at this. I will NOT boost tune without a wideband rig. I use an LM-1.
The Innovate LC-1 is a lot cheaper though and a better choice if its to be a permanent install.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

yea. I know I have to tune off boost before I even think about tuning in boost. but what gets me is on all other tuning programs I have used there is normally a AFR table for the oxygen sensor to go by in closed loop. when i'm looking at MT program there is no table for narrow band. so my guess is I use the ve table to tune the car and monitor the AFR gauge in MT while I drive? while I can do but I normally run closed loop. where as I set the correction to 10%. so from hot weather to cold weather and differenct climates it will add adn remove fuel to keep my targeted afr in sight. I viewed MT before and looked over it back when it first came out and was 8X8. and it had a ve table and AFR table. I looked through msefi.com and it says they deleted the afr table. and combined it into the ve table. if its compuned then how does the oxygen sensor know what afr taget to shoot for?
The question may sound stupid but for someone that used to using tec2 and tec3 its makes a good question for a newbie of MT. 
my other guess is that I enter numbers and make the mixture rich and use MS 3000 to lean it out. is this right?


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

I have a wide band to tune the upper range of boost. its just a separate unit with a lcd. its just a pain to use it in the dark when I tune. I'm actually getting a lc-1 soon. I first tuned boost with a narrow band by voltage, car feel, and knock sensor. later got a wideband to tune boost. I am for the 11:1 range and watch the plugs.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

MegaTune DOES have AFR tables but you can't use them safetly or at all with a NB sensor. You start by getting the car to idle correctly. 
Mine ran so bad it was a chore to keep it from dying at each stop at first. After I ran an hour of datalogs through it it was driving smooth as silk. WAY better than it had ever run on the TEC-2. This was after one pass through MST3K and a NB sensor.
After that I took several days of datalogging processing them one at a time. Never made many changes after the first big set though. I tweaked some of the upper reagons and then changed over to the wideband to tune for real. 
MegaTune now has AutoTune built into it. This supposedly makes MST3K obsolete. I have yet to play with AutoTune. It used the AFR target tables in MT to aim for where you want it to be. There are realy a million ways to do this. About the only thing I can say, is you will need a wideband setup to safetly tune your boost AFR areas. A NB is only accurate for tuning it to 14.7.
Again, NB sensors can not tell you anything except how often it switches over the stoich point. Voltages realy mean nothing on a NB sensor. Look at a voltage map for one and you will understand why.
If you have one of the LM-1 handheld wideband units it can output a signal to the MS so you can get it integrated into the ECU and use autotune. I think pretty much ALL of the systems out there can output a usable signal. I do not know of one that can't.



_Modified by T3Bunny at 8:06 PM 11-19-2005_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Depending on what kind of engine you have, I have fuel/ignition maps for Turbo 8V 1.8 & 2L's, and Turbo 16V 2L's on hand.. may even have a 1.8L 16V turbo map they wont be perfect but they will be a lot closer than the base map that comes with the firmware which is for a Chevy 350 with TunedPort injection.
I'd suggest running the "Extra" firmware located at 
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra
they have a download section if you are just using a hall use 024S12 and get the matching version of megatune 225B514 I think.
I then have msq's i can send you that will shortly be up on my site for free for everyone to use to save them headaches.
Some are setup for use with a wideband and do have target AFR's enabled <A function of the extra code on the MS1 processor> or built in to the MS2 processesors 
I honestly think a few people would likely benefit from using the MS2 CPU and code as long as you didnt need features like boost control or EGT logging from the CPU it has much finer resolution on both spark <aka instead of 17deg's you can have 17.x deg's 
and the same for injector duty cycles instead of 3.4ms you can have 3.389 ms
I use MS2 on my Suburban <a 350 with TPI lol> and its even smoother than MS1 with the extra code and i know how many people are impressed by the smoothness of just regular MS over other standalone.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I have a 1.8 16v with stacked headgaskets. #52lb low impedence injectors. MS is coming already with extra installed. i'm planing on getting a daughter board to put all the extra features on MS so can't go with MS2 until it supports extra.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

I found it. in Fuel Basics in Lambda AFR settings. its a 8X8 table.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Tyrone, you NEED a wideband still to use that. Yeah, it WILL work on a NB but its going to be HORRIBLY inaccurate. I wouldn't risk the engine on a NB sensor. Go get a wideband.


----------



## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

where could i get preset ignition maps for VR? possibly fuel maps too?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*

nobody has done a VR yet. There are several of us working on them though.


----------



## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

alright cool....might be another one working on it then


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I'll be working on a mk4 vr6 here in the immediate future. It's a s/c application, though


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

I have a basic fuel/ignition map for a VR6 that was running EDIS 6 which should work on anyone who wants to try a Crank trigger I'm still waiting for the customers car to show for the VR6 with 60-2 support and stock coilpack








doing a boosted car Vs non boost wont make a difference other than you may not get a chance to tune parts of the map where people without an SC would play in.


----------



## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

Should be at the running/tuning process in a few months with my project.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_nobody has done a VR yet. There are several of us working on them though.

Lemme rephrase that...
I ment to say nobody has done a stock COILPACK OBD-2 setup yet. Sorry Dave! Hey, can you toss me that .msq for the EDIS one BTW?  http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I wanna get started building up my base maps and all that.


----------



## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

wouldnt ign maps fo a FI or a NA vr be the same?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*

I think you got something confused in that post...
A FI VR6 is not neccisarly NA or normaly Aspirated. All the VRs I know of were fuel injected... 
If you mean would the ign maps for a vr running coilpacks, dizzy or the EDIS system be the same... Probally not. But I am sure they are going to be fairly close. I suspect VW used more aggressive timing on the OBD-2 engines with coilpacks than the Dizzy equipped. I never made a Dizzy motor that was timed right ping. But I could ping my coilpacked VR on command. 
My boss with 30 years of experiance couldn't get my car to knock and thought I was crazy. I guess I am the only one who thought the car should drive fine after being in traffic with all the windows down and ac full blast and NOT KNOCK.







He turned the ac off so he could hear it... DUH. It didn't knock for HIM.
But thats the beauty of MS. I can FIX that in 30 seconds by using the IAT compensation...


_Modified by T3Bunny at 9:44 PM 11-20-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Just an FYI but I got a stock Mk3 2L tach to work with the MS tach output circuit that's on the -Extra site. Set tach to 'normal' mode in MT. Works beautifully.








+12v from JP1/8
GND from JP1/7 
Tach output on X5
Output on X13 to DB37 pin 29
DB37/29 to Gn/Bk CPU pin 22 on OBD2 2L engine harness


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Thats great news.. is that mendra's car? 
I was still under the impression that the Mk3 tach's wanted a single trigger per 360deg's of rotation.. The tacho output circuit worked like a charm on the 92 240SX i just did as well, great little addon circuit.
I'll pass that info on to another customer who was driving around without a tach on a mk3


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Yessir, pretty easy mod. Having done it once I would have made it prettier, but that's how it goes








I thought it was a 'half speed' tach as well, but it definitely read 1/2 setup like that. 
What's really strange is since the original install his oil light has been blinking. I just thought we 'oopsed' something while doing the install and haven't really thought about it since. Guess what's off now.. yup, no blinking oil light. Guess it's looking for some kind of tach input.







Strange stuff.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

probably uses the tach signal to cut between the low pressure sensor and the higher pressure cutoff..
I know all the mk1's had the low pressure on the head that was for cranking and a higher but still low pressure on the oil filter housing, the oil pressure circuit would turn off the light once one was hit and the rpm's came up i think and then use the second sensor to alert.. thats kinda interesting.
thanks for the info i'll make a note of it on my site.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

What physical input is that going to? I'm wondering what the equivalent would be for a mk4. It's going to be harder to justify ripping the ecu out, though, because my climatic, radio, and dash won't work anylonger. 
I'm thinking about trying to retain everything and just have the MS control spark and squirt.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_probably uses the tach signal to cut between the low pressure sensor and the higher pressure cutoff..
I know all the mk1's had the low pressure on the head that was for cranking and a higher but still low pressure on the oil filter housing, the oil pressure circuit would turn off the light once one was hit and the rpm's came up i think and then use the second sensor to alert.. thats kinda interesting.
thanks for the info i'll make a note of it on my site.

I thought of that when the blinker stopped blinking.. but for some reason I never thought of that when the oil light came on in the first place! I never had a tach in my Rabbit (at least a factory one that worked!) and it definitely never did that. Guess Mk3's are too smart.








As far as where I wired it, I noted it above, on the Mk3 there's a dedicated ECU output for the RPM signal to the cluster on ECU pin 22 it's Green/Black stripe. Not sure what you'd need on a Mk4 to get everything to work.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

the mk4's need a CANbus signal.. and MS2 now has a Can chip on board, no ones gone to the trouble of decoding what the stock ECU is looking for but it will be a big deal once we start working through that.. could even have it fake out an ODB2 scan tool.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_... could even have it fake out an ODB2 scan tool.

NOW WE ARE TALKIN!


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Well -- if someone can point anything out that I can help out with... I've got lots of assembly programing experience (specifically on the HCS12), and I've got a lot of knowledge with VW's (specifically the vr6)... so there's probably something I can contribute, but I don't know what the "hot topics" are, or how to go about chipping away at them. I interfaced the coilpack, which was a big achievement for me







but that's not much in the whole scheme of things.


----------



## Yorick (Oct 31, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_the mk4's need a CANbus signal.. and MS2 now has a Can chip on board, no ones gone to the trouble of decoding what the stock ECU is looking for but it will be a big deal once we start working through that.. could even have it fake out an ODB2 scan tool.

A friend of mine and I, both programmers, have been thinking this over. We're not sure of the legal implications, but it would still be a fun project to figure out how to fake the right codes.
And if we did implement something, it could be fun to 'anonymously' leak it onto the internet.
Of course, then the gov. gets wise and starts doing visual inspections everywhere, etc etc.
Anyway, we're having a bit of trouble finding info on the technical (read: more than just "this is what it does") specs for OBD2. Anyone have info or links?
Thanks,
Ian


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Yorick)*

The OBD2 architecture is actually open, and I've definitely seen some BIG info on it. Perhaps SAE paper is the way to find the good stuff.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Yorick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorick* »_We're not sure of the legal implications, but it would still be a fun project to figure out how to fake the right codes.

GOTTA be carefull here. I would not use the term "fake" but instead call it an "educational... excersise"... even if its an excersize in BSing!







Actualy you don't need to "fake" any codes. What you need to do is figure out how to either replicate or spoof the connection protocol. Beleive it or not, OBD-2 protocol is NOT universal. IE every OBD-2 scantool WILL NOT connect to every OBD-2 car. I forget how many differant protocols there are, but I think its divided into two or three main protocols and possibly a few subs for each.
If you want more detailed info, pm me your email. I have 3 professional scan tools and can dig out more detailed info.

_Quote, originally posted by *Yorick* »_Anyway, we're having a bit of trouble finding info on the technical (read: more than just "this is what it does") specs for OBD2..

If were mainly dicsusing VW here, then go look at RossTech's website for a start. In reality, you could probally spoof the most universal of the protocols. I don't think most techs look or care what version it is they are scanning. It would only be an issue in States that require the info to be wired to a central database. Personaly though what I would LIKE to see is a MS setup probally VIA CAN that allows you to hook up an OBD-2 CAN enabled scanner and view realtime information. And even cooler would be if it also allowed you to actually have a CEL light with programable setting parameters. 
Actually this is something I have brought up on MSEFI before, but I am NOT a programmer... Supposedly there are some people already working on an OBD interface.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Oy, MSnS-extra is SO COMPLICATED!
If there is anyone reading this post and trying Megasquirt for the first time, I would STRONGLY encourage you to develop your whip in the following order:
1. Fuel only
2. Basic MegaSquirt-n-Spark
3. MSnS-extra code.
I've just spent a couple of weeks tracking down what I thought was a flyback board problem - all along it was related to the MSnS-extra code settings.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

i've tried -extra a few times and i keep coming back to regular msns.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_i've tried -extra a few times and i keep coming back to regular msns.









I hear ya, that's the point I'm at now (back running the MSnS code)
I was running the -extra code back in February, but between then and now there's been a quantum leap in complexity, I just can't keep up.


----------



## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

whats added in msns extra? what makes the complexity more complicated?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*

A LOT! i don't have the msns -extra site handy, but it explains it all... search msefi.com and you'll find a link


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (bonesaw)*

I'm going to be righ tthere with you bro. I'm installing mine in 2 weeks hopefully if weather allows.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (bonesaw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bonesaw* »_http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra

what he said http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

well it says all the features it has but out of those what does msns already have? sorry im new so idk.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

The extra stuff isn't realy hard to understand or impliment. But DAMN it is an ASS to keep up with what they are doing. I spend a few hours a day on the MS site and I am ALWAYS finding stuff I didn't know about.
The extra code is about what people want. It is the differance between an impossibly cheap @$200 standalone that just does fuel, to an impossibly cheap @350 standalone system that blows EVERY OTHER SYSTEM big boy system out of the water. And it includes free lifetime support, free "college" classes...
How many big manufacturers when you ask for a feature or software fix personally send you it within 24hrs?







This stuff is AWSOME!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*

ALL OF THEM.








Some are more refined than others. Some can't be implimented with others. Some need additional circuits made. But they are all there.
WHAT THE H3LL? Somehow I got a MAZDA Avatar...







Okay that should fix it...


_Modified by T3Bunny at 9:03 PM 11-22-2005_


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Haha, I was about to ask you about the mazda avatar... I thought you were asking to get kicked off the vortex


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (majic)*

ok guys I took the time and Made a actual wiring digram. I searched and no one has one that is a FULL digram so I did it. only wire that I can't find where it goes to is distributor signal. if any wires in the digram is wrong please reply so I can change it. this is a digram I made for distributor on a MS v2.2 with midnight mod for spark through the Fidle pin.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

*edit*
fixed the bad stuff
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 2:48 PM 11-27-2005_


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

ok picture updated. Is the wiring right now? I wanted to make sure all the wires are right before I make a final digram. in the final one i'm going to only use one relay and one or 2 fuses. also I'm going to make a Relay board digram.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

ok updated once again that should be right


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Tyrone, read the information I sent you. Thats not going to work well if at all. You need to power the Hall from a dedicated 5v source out of the MS. The hall sensor needs to have ALL its power and grounds and signal attached to the MS.
The only things you need to change in that writeup are where your moving signals in and out with if your running spark and fidle. If you read it and still have questions, pm me.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

BTW, there is at least one COMPLEATLY accurate diagram out there but not sure if its published to the internet yet.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

since there has been a bit of confusion on this recently, i've updated mine to be as complete and accurate as possible with some small tidbits of helpful info.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

damn thats a good write up midnight.
t3bunny. I'm know someone has one somewhere. I tried to find it for a while but never could so I resisded to make one and publish it. still have to make one from scratch when I get the wires right. also looked through your file and used the designs in the current update. forgot your file was in my computer.


_Modified by tyrone27 at 7:39 PM 11-23-2005_


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

could also write up how to use factory relays. i have it written down somewhere. its like 3 wires.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_ The hall sensor needs to have ALL its power and grounds and signal attached to the MS.
.

I don't think that's true, I set one up using 12v sourced from the fuel pump relay (just like on a stock Mk3) and it worked fine. The VW hall is supposed to be a 12v sensor, so why bother sourcing 5v for it. Just my opinion


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Noise. The 5v signal in and out of the MS created MUICH less noise. The 12v signal induces more noise as it becomes louder than the other signals. I am not great at explaining the electrical aspects... So I imagine one of our electronics wizards here can explain it better than this. Basicaly due to the high power output potential of the Hall, ones MUCH smarter than me learned that 5v signal produced a LOT LESS noise. 
A 12v singal will work, though not realy recomended.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Further, the MegaSquirt is a LOT more suseptable to noise than a factory ECU would be also. Even in a VERY CLEAN install we had serious issues on an install with noise in the Oxegen sensor circuit. Noise is very hard to trace down to specific items also....


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

hi don't know how the factory relays are wired up. I don't have factory wires. 
Is the digram correct? I'm going to make a new digram with one relay.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

At a quick glance it looks good now. Check your diagram against MidnightGLI's and the info I sent you should answer anything else.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

ok cool. I'm going to start on making a new more organized one later today.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

I agree and disagree at the same time about the hall argument.
I dont think the MS ecu is more succeptible to noise than a factory unit. The factory however seemed to take more care with the wiring than a lot of us do when doing our installs. I'm pretty sure the 12V power from the stock ignition module is a filtered/isolated 12V and less prone to noise than the rest of the 12V electrical system.
The Opto circuit is actually setup to work with a 12V trigger and has trouble if the signal voltage drops below about 4volts.
I've never had a problem with the 5V Vref coming from the ECU and despite having the opto in the ECU to "protect" the input from noise or spikes I still like the idea of getting the power for the hall from the same source as the rest of the circuits inside the MS ecu so that the chances of noise or voltage spikes are reduced to near zero.
If you are worried beyond that you can use sheilded twisted pair for all the signal lines too, especially TPS


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

ok here is the digram i'm going to run in my car. only going to be using one relay and have my power wires coming off it. thinking about getting juction box to run the wires.










_Modified by tyrone27 at 6:03 PM 11-24-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I agree and disagree at the same time about the hall argument.


It's a digital signal, with those the bigger the switching voltage, the better signal to noise ratio. It's the law.







You have my answer, haha.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Right.. Thats why I think +12V is not an issue, it makes sense, but whenever you have power coming from two different places you have the potential for differences right.. I know for a fact in the past that i've even been shocked by the power/signal wires for the hall on a mk1.
I guess "noise" isnt what i've been worried about so much as spikes and potential differences in the voltage between different areas of the car.
It seemed reasonable that a nice clean +5V signal woudl protect the ECU and the hall sensor from any voltage spikes in the vehicles electrical system.
I'd love to see a schematic of what the 7pin ignition module actually looks like inside to see just exactly what VW did with the power for the hall.
We all know that both options work just fine







some people have even been using pullup resistors to help bolster the signal at 12V etc.
It all comes down to personal preference at this point I think. I'm not an electrical engineer and dont profess to be one


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

if anyone wanted to use the stock relays on a CE2 fusepanel. connect g1/3 yellow/blue to pin 37 on the MS. this is the FP 85. Connect g1/10 red/blue to pin 28 on MS. this is your 87 on the relay. then take g1/7 and connect to ignition power. it is brown/black. i connected it right to the e2 to d8 jump.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

CE2 fusepannel? Sorry for a lame question, but what year is that?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (majic)*

87+ ??????????? i can't remember i think it's mid model year A2 though IIRC.


----------



## Yorick (Oct 31, 2001)

I'm having a problem wiring in my megasquirt to an 83 rabbit gti. It seems that I can't find an ignition source that remains on while cranking. Of course, connecting the run and crank circuits just means that the car cranks when the ignition is set to 'run' - so that's right out.
Any ideas? I was thinking of figuring out a way to connect the 'run' and 'crank' circuits with a diode, but I'm not very experienced with electronics.
Thanks guys -
Ian


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (Yorick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorick* »_I'm having a problem wiring in my megasquirt to an 83 rabbit gti. It seems that I can't find an ignition source that remains on while cranking. Of course, connecting the run and crank circuits just means that the car cranks when the ignition is set to 'run' - so that's right out.
Any ideas? I was thinking of figuring out a way to connect the 'run' and 'crank' circuits with a diode, but I'm not very experienced with electronics.
Thanks guys -
Ian

Ian,
Hook it up to the (+) side of the ignition coil. Or, better yet, use a relay: run your 12V sourcefrom the battery, and use the (+) side of the coil to "switch on" the relay. You will also need a fuse on your 12V source.
If this sounds like Greek to you, I'll be glad to work you through it.

Iain.
2005 Saabaru WRX
1980 Turbo Cabriolet


----------



## Yorick (Oct 31, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

I'm currently running an msd ignition and coil, so I'm not sure if that will still work... I'll have to go check how it's wired in. Otherwise, assuming that the original + coil wire isn't hooked up, could I use it anyway?
I'm pretty saavy with hooking up radios and such, so it's not all greek. My particular setup appears to be part of the problem with hookup though.








I guess I have some more investigating to do. Thanks for the info!
EDIT: I checked, and the MSD has it's own coil positive wire, for what it's worth.


_Modified by Yorick at 11:59 PM 11-27-2005_


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (Yorick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorick* »_I'm currently running an msd ignition and coil, so I'm not sure if that will still work... I'll have to go check how it's wired in. Otherwise, assuming that the original + coil wire isn't hooked up, could I use it anyway?



Yes, the (+) coil will give 12V when cranking and when the engine is running. Not sure about the MSD box, but I know that's a common topic on http://www.msefi.com


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

i think the MSD box needs ignition power to turn itself on. as for the CE2 it is 90 and up. could use factory relays on any cars i just dont have the bentley to look it up.


_Modified by bonesaw at 8:36 PM 11-27-2005_


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

On newer cars, aren't there serveral places that there is switched +12v power? I think if you look in your bently you can find some. Or, if you have a voltmeter, just test various places under your driver's side kick pannel... I think on my car, brown is the switched 12v, and red is running to the battery.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (majic)*

could be havent really played with a mk4. look in the bentley. mostly its jsut probing around.


----------



## Whitsend (Jun 10, 2004)

*Hardware question*

Tons of great info here! Will be ordering MS2 first of the year. What i need to know is the details of what are people using for the hardware side of things? TPS? Injectors? Fuel rail? Regulator? etc. I have a 91 GLI 2.0 16v so i will be using the stock hall sender, but beyond that, just want to know what people are using that isn't too much af a cluster f...Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: Hardware question (Whitsend)*

I recently installed ms in my 16v rabbit. I explained all the parts in detail in my write up. Hope it helps http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

-Chris

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2297179


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Hardware question (Captain16vGTI)*

Great writeup, and a nice clean MS install.. i'm curious though, why not have it control the ignition as well








as a side note, I helped with the MS on that 16V that dyno'd at kinetic, Shawn asked me for help since he didnt know MS at the time.
The car was running very poorly at the start due to clogged fuel lines <they were rubber hydraulic hose not fuel rated>
once all that was sorted out, it was a wickedly fast car, i street tuned it before it went on the dyno and it felt like it was easily nearing 150-160whp <i was in the passenger seat with a laptop while Jeremy from kinetic drove>. 2 200lb guys in a full interiored Mk2
The dynojet numbers are kinda high but the Dyno at kinetic is known to be fairly accurate <just has high numbers when setup to match a dynojet>
If you compared those numbers to a more realistic Mustang or a regularly calibrated dyno dynamics i'm sure it would come out closer to a real ~160whp


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: Hardware question (CdnDub)*

Thanks for the compliment http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . The reason I haven't gone to spark yet is because I wanted to get fuel as close to right as I could before doing spark as well. Im installing a wb at the moment so I should be getting the fuel all sorted out soon. Once I do that I plan to have ms control my spark and then I might do EDIS later on. In regards to those numbers. I remember seeing that thread awhile ago and I must say I was impressed. It did seem a little high but I still say good job. Thanks again for the kind words.

-Chris


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_but whenever you have power coming from two different places you have the potential for differences right..

Definitely, I work with a lot of 24v systems and we get the problems like you're referring to all the time. Separately derived sources need to be isolated or balanced so you don't get the problems.
I think it's a stretch to see similar things on a car with only one 12v battery and alternator though! Just IMHO though.


----------



## jueve grande (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

My MS is installed and I'm working on getting it starting. I have tested everything (with the stim) on the board except for my knock sensor circuit. Once I work out my timing issues I'll be on the road!
CdnDub and everyone else who has contributed, thanks for all the great info. I have drawn out a witing diagram similar to tyrone27's that is almost complete if anyone wants to see it.


----------



## Whitsend (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: (jueve grande)*

I am interested in any info i can get at this time. Whats the best way to get your diagram from you?


----------



## jueve grande (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (Whitsend)*

Its not perfect, but here it is. My hardware mode are like T3Bunny's: Pin 24=+5V to Hall, Pin 25=Spark out, Pin 27=Hall signal








edit: Oh yeah, I got it started on megasquirt last night!


_Modified by jueve grande at 12:28 PM 11-30-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (jueve grande)*

I am actually making some specific pin reccomendations shortly and revising the writeup. We are gearing towards making the harness setup mostly plug and play for either version of the ecu. Spark out on the V3.0 and the MS2 add-on will be on pin 36. I think this is X14 on the V2.2. 
This is only going to matter for those of us wanting to just swap in an updated V3.0 ECU or adding the MS2. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## lroy12 (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (jueve grande)*

in about two weeks i will be installing MS on my ABA 8v with turbo. i am going to try and run MS first then do spark. Do i need a four window dizzy to run it on my mk3 aba? i wonder if this diagram is the same for aba


----------



## jueve grande (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (lroy12)*

Could someone post the easytherm settings for the stock coolant temp sensor? I used bosch defaults and my temps are about 10 degrees off.
Also, could some people post their msq's? (or send it to me and I can host it)


_Modified by jueve grande at 9:50 AM 12-1-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (jueve grande)*

Did you use the correct bias resistor? I have not had good luck with the Bosch stuff. All the installs I have done or helped with, we have ended up using the gm ones. With a lazer temp gun the GM sensors are always within a degree or less of the MegaTune gauge readings.
The bosch values are posted out there, or pull the sensor out and get them yourself!


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

The Bosh defaults used by easytherm had been about ~10* off for me also, but I used the Bentley manual and plugged in values from the graphical resistance vs temp readouts and I am spot on. I used the middle values in the graph as there does seem to be a range of operation. If the temps are off one way or another, you could consult the graph and adjust as necessary. I suppose I could post them up, but that might take me a bit.


_Modified by CrackerX at 8:29 AM 12-2-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

Do the GM sensors have the same threads as the bosch, if not how are you guys getting them to fit ???


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

i think most of us are using the factory bosch coolant sensor but the gm intake temp sensor you have to make fit somewhere in your intake tract since there wasn't one originally.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CrackerX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrackerX* »_The Bosh defaults used by easytherm had been about ~10* off for me also, but I used the Bentley manual and plugged in values from the graphical resistance vs temp readouts and I am spot on. 

Same here. The GM values are close enough to the Bosch ones to get the car started and running though.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Okay guys, then the big question is did anyone with the mixed Bosch coolant and GM IAT setup need to use the bias resistor for the Bosch sensor? 
Plugs for Bosch sensors are a good bit cheaper! And this would eliminate the need to use adapters or rig stuff for the GM coolant sensor that are always a pain to install. 
Lemme know! I am probally doing a CIS to EFI conversion and full MegaSquirt install this weekend. Its inside a heated garage, and my GT VR6 is sitting in a snow coverd driveway. For some reason I don't feel like poking at it tright now...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Doesn't matter what ballast resistors you use, if you use Easytherm to recalibrate the .inc files. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I used whatever resistors were in the assembly directions (I think GM?). However, i believe easytherm will calibrate the .inc files based on whatever resistor was used.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

AHHH, perhaps THAT has been our mistake then. I think we have always swapped the coolant balast/bias resistor for the one listed for Bosch... THEN Used EasyTherm. Cool, I will try the simple EasyTherm only approach this weekend and see how that works.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

installed my LC-1 today, holy **** it actually works!! i tried helping a buddy with a turbo 8v rabbit install it with his megasquirt setup a few months ago and we went through 2 units trying to figure it out, he finally gave up (as would i) but i decided to order one and try my own installation and it worked the very first time. i took my time with all of the connections (for accuracy and cosmetic reasons) so it feels real good having that installed, even my previously useless autometer AFR gauge now serves a purpose. i'll have to wait until my next day off to do any real tuning with it, i can't wait.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Do the GM sensors have the same threads as the bosch, if not how are you guys getting them to fit ???

No, the GM ones have 3/8npt threads.
I use both theGM ones on my TurboBunny. Getting them to fit isn't hard. You have two options, for the digifant cars they sell adapters that the GM sensor screws into then plugs into the hole. For mine I just used an aluminum head side outlet with an additional port. I tapped the port for my GM sensor and was good to go.
If one can get the Bosch sensor to work, good way to go! BUT, I found the Bosch sensors suprisingly to not be as accurate or have as big of a window as the GM ones. And I am not refering to installed in a car. We did bench testing with ice water, lazer temp gun, digital thermometer, and two sensors at a time hooked up to identical Snap on meters. I tested I three bosch sensors against the gm one and repeated each test three times. The bosch ones did not repeat perfectly. And each Bosch one had differant ranges. All said and accounted for, realy perfect coolant temp down to the half degree probally doesn't matter. It was the lack of perfect repeatability that worried me.
Two of the bosch sensors were brand new digifant ones. The third one was off a cis car and used.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (lroy12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lroy12* »_Do i need a four window dizzy to run it on my mk3 aba? i wonder if this diagram is the same for aba

Diagram is for VW's 4cyl in general. For fuel only you don't need ANY of this. You hook up to the coil. Fuel AND SPARK is a differant story. I can't tell you much about the ABA motors never having owned one, but a 4 window dizzy would make it easiest. Unless you have COP or a crank sensor. 
COP requires a differant setup. A one window dizzy and a crank sensor would allow you to run with a vr conditioning circuit. These are built into the V3.0 ECU's but not the V2.2. You might be able to just use the crank sensor... not sure.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Could one/some of you guys email me your .msq files for MSnS and MSnS-extra? I'm having some problems, I'd like to review the spark etc. settings to see if that's the problem.
If you could tell me what version of MegaTune you are running the .msq file on, that would be helpful
Thanks.
[email protected]


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

T3Bunny and I have been developing a Plug'N'Play Megasquirt'N'Spark kit for VW owners. The kits are primarily aimed at the 8V MKI, and MKII's at this point and will be expanded from there. I have been designing the install pamphlet and T3Bunny and I thought you guys might like it. It is a joint effot and I am focusing on the standard kits, and T3Bunny is focusing on the kits where people have special needs, or want added functions over the base kit. Here is one of the pics from the install booklet, and the reson for this post.....


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (patatron)*

yup I'm planing on buying a wiring harness from t3bunny.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Has anyone been following the new development of the dual processor board for the MS? Has the capability of running two 908's (ms I), or one MSII (s12) and a MSI (908).
Check it out here: http://www.megasquirt.info/msexp/
I'm not sure if this will give expanded capability for over 6 cylinder COP applications, but it seems as though it may evolve into that


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

Yeah i've been following that, seems like a great idea.
The main idea behind it seems to be that you could run MS2 to control your engine with high resolution fuel/spark <single coil> and then run the extra code on an MS1 cpu to do all that "extra" stuff like boost control, etc
The router board is still in development which will add Sequential fuel and spark to MS2 via Canbus but i dont think we'll see that for at least another 6-8months.
In the meantime i'm spending a lot of my time learning how to make VEMS easy to use for you guys and will be putting more effort behind that product. Especially since its only about 50% more money than an MS ecu and includes a wideband, external 4bar map sensor and full sequential <you dont have to use it in sequential mode though> as well as a built in LCD display etc.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by CdnDub at 7:02 PM 12-5-2005_


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

CdnDub: Are you in charge of developing VEMS? That looks like a really good program. As it is, I'm going with a diy-wb02 from techedge, so it's a DIY as well. But the VEMS project looks promising. I think that'll be my nex project after I get MS working, or I may swap out for a VEMS after I get proficient at MS. 
Which processor is VEMS using again?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

Definitely not in charge of development.. However FnF is trying to take on Support and Retail for Canada and a large chunk of north american for selling VEMS in manageable formats, I'm working on "Kits" or "Packages" not sure how people prefer to name them. for VW's, Porsche's, Nissans and Hotrods <Ford,GM,Dodge etc> and a few other things using VEMS.
Over the last 12months of using MS on peoples vehicles and pushing the evelope with help from guys like James <who writes the extra code> I've realized that despite having great support and a littany of features MS is still missing a few things that I consider essential to people making their installations successful without having to know a lot about how to tune their engine or go through a few shortblocks and cylinder heads just beacuse they dont have the data.
The biggest most important thing Is having a Wideband Oxygen sensor. Without that you cannot tune effectively for WOT. The other things that I like to see available and easy to use are EGT and Knock. These are all options for MS but not really scaleable or easy for the end user to impliment. The downside currently to vems is that its still able to confuse even the most proficient tuner or electronics guy because its so big and well engineered but lacks documentation and clear instructions for the layman.
I dont want to get into a sales pitch or anything but we were retailing MS based "kits" with a pigtail type harness based on a V3 ECU for a VW 4cyl
The price was ~$700 CDN and included full support from us to make sure people were as successful as possible.
I found a good portion of people would also buy a wideband controller another $~200 USD with sensor. 
Basically $800 USD by the time the dust settles for everything you need.
I know some did it cheaper and lets assume best case scenario buying an assembled MS ECU from Jerry at DIYautotune $330 USD plus $65 for a harness and $10-20 for shipping.. $410 USD plus $200 USD for a wideband
$610-630 USD overall cost for MS with a wideband controller and none of the extra features <software support but no hardware mods, and a 2.5bar map sensor>
I havnt worked out the final details of our VEMS pricing but if you go off the main VEMS web order page you can order up a fully loaded VEMS ECU with the following features
8 Fuel injector Channels, 8ignition channels, dual wideband controllers
Knock, EGT, PS2 keyboard support, 4x40 LCD with display, Canbus support, extra IO channels for pretty much anything you can dream up, and the ability to use unused injector drivers as pwm outputs etc.
Fully loaded with harness and the LCD display and an External 4 bar map sensor <or internal> will run you about $900 USD with shipping
As a side note I've used the DIYWB02 from techedge and it worked really well, it is however more work to build one than an MS 2.2 ECU.
VEMS is currently running on an Atmega 128 <atmel > processor i believe and work is underway to move towards a much faster
ARM based CPU.
as a side note, the VEMS all in one Wideband controller is nearly ready for primetime its currently called the AfreshTiny and is a 52mm gauge with the controller built in.. I'm not sure what pricing will be like but i expect it to be comparable to the LC1 from innovative but it obviously comes with a gauge to display the data as well as outputs.
Dave


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
The biggest most important thing Is having a Wideband Oxygen sensor. Without that you cannot tune effectively for WOT. The other things that I like to see available and easy to use are EGT and Knock. *These are all options for MS but not really scaleable or easy for the end user to impliment. * 

Just curious, why is the Widband O2 sensor not really scaleable or easy to implement? That was probably the easiest part of my whole MS project







Thats not a bash, just curious about what led you to that opinion.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (CrackerX)*

I mean its not built in..
The wideband itself is scaleable and easy.. I should be more careful with my runon sentences








I get carried away typing at 100+WPM and just dump whats on my mind sometimes.
THe wideband is an easy fix, i guess what i'm saying is that it shouldnt be optional everyone should buy one which is why i think eventually UltraMegasquirt will be a great solution, or VEMS which is already where UMS has been promising to go for years.
The hard to impliment parts are things like boost control, Knock, EGT etc
If you have a solid understanding of how to use a soldering iron and how to work with electronics then building some of the addons for MS is no big deal, But i'm talking about the average VW nut who just wants a more reliable, easier to work on easier to tune vehicle.
MS with the extra code is still a fairly complicated endevour especially when things get confused between which version of megatune you have, which settings files, are your MSQ's the right version etc etc.
VEMS is however currently much worse than that, my goal is to put my energy behind that system instead and make it easier to use than MS with the Extra features currently is.
I am not saying anything bad about MS, I hope thats understood, its a great system and fits a really nice place in the market. If you understand some electronics you can have standalone for under $500 USD with a wideband controller if you dont you can have it for $600-800 
Still cheaper than SDS or 034EFI and neither of those come standard with a wideband at that pricepoint.
But what i'm saying is bang for the buck wise, you can get a VEMS ECU fully loaded that compares more to Motec than it does to anyone elses current market offerings for under $1k USD with everything you need The only thing thats not there right now is a comprehensive installation guide, how to etc. I mean the stuff is still at the point in some areas where you have to compile your own firmware after changing the settings you need.. uploading the "extra" code with MS is difficult enough for a lot of people let alone having to install a compiler, go into sourcecode, modify a bunch of settings and then on top of that upload it to the ECU.
With a little time and some sweat I think VEMS will be able to compete head to head with motec at 1/6th the price.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_With a little time and some sweat I think VEMS will be able to compete head to head with motec at 1/6th the price.

I also think that's true. It's a very powerful system and I almost got a setup when it came out just to try it. I then grew wary of the non existent single point (at best) support side and just kept chugging with MS ecu's. If someone (Dave!) can work all the little ins and outs and have good info on installs, etc it would be a big player in the market. 
Just my $.02cad


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I am impressed with its potential. But support is WAY more important to me! I can barely find enough information on it to even see how potentialy cool the VEMS is!
I am likely to be with MS for the long haul. Its documented VERY well and the support for it is just out of this world!


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

if i could do it all over again, i'd run VEMS no if ands or buts. i think i'm intelligent enough to make it work and not only that (Dave, like you stated) but have way more potential for nearly the same price. it's a very easy decision for me. basically what this all comes down to is this... people who want a plug and play standalone with an excellent step by step guide and company tech support, should go with the "other guys" (SDS, 034EFI, Motec even). but those of us that are not only cheap asses but like to know HOW and WHY it all works love MS and VEMS, it's much more hands on and takes a lot of research and understanding to make it work. i think a lot of people are now hearing that you can get full standalone with all these great features for <$500 but don't know what they are getting into. thats why if you read all my responses to people beginning to inquire about MS, i always tell them the same thing i just said, it's not for everybody, you need to read, understand, read again to get what you didn't understand the first time, rinse and repeat. and on a final note, Dave it's great to see someone step up and take these systems that were only for the hardcore enthusiast and make them a viable solution for a much larger market by providing a "kit" or "package" to suit their application and provide excellent support. i thought about doing a similar thing about a year and a half ago when i first stared getting proficient at MS, but i applaud you for actually doing it and doing it well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

I had vems and I would never get it to work. its a good system for the price but not a lot of tech support and no one local runs it.


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## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

heyyyyyy im back from digi1......cuse i cant use VR6 TB cuse it got TPS/..........so now ill b trying MS.........can someone tell me how to download all the stuff into the ECU.......im goin MSnS.........on a aba16vT


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (wethvento)*

RTFM. Again.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_RTFM. Again.

Haha, when my buddy was building his MS he kept calling me asking questions. My response almost every time was, "read the next page." He got it after about the third call.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Yeah I was gonna say the megamanual has just about every piece of information you could need to build and Tune an MS based ECU, the only tricky part can be loading and using the "extra" code when trying to match up all the right versions of software/firmware etc.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Yeah I was gonna say the megamanual has just about every piece of information you could need to build and Tune an MS based ECU, the only tricky part can be loading and using the "extra" code when trying to match up all the right versions of software/firmware etc.

Well said. I have built 3 total using just the manual and the old MSnS yahoo group forum for guidance.
For those who are looking into MSnS please make sure to read up on it. Yes it is nice to have a shortcut and get your project running sooner but it is priceless to read, learn, and understand it. You probably won't be able to take on that much information in one sitting so please be patient.
I have not had good luck with the extra code when I tried it in fall of 04'. I ended going back to what I knew worked. That won't stop me from trying to use it again though.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

The new manual is the SHEET too! I was using an old paper manual for the longest time... Still have it for quick referance. But there is just SO MUCH in the new MegaManual its mind blowing! NO OTHER standalone system has such a comprehensive manual and collection of information.
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/mtabcon.htm
Go read young Grasshopper and open the door to true enlightment!








(If enlightment is too difficult, you can always PayPal me and I tells ya over the phone HOW to do it!)


_Modified by T3Bunny at 10:38 PM 12-9-2005_


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

only thing i learned was if you want to do MSnS. figure out what needs to be modified and do it the first time. its annoying doing it the second time around.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Sequential shift lights?!*

Guys, somebody out ther had set up the sequantial shift lights. PM me! I need some info! I have the extra card setup, though I have had nothing but trouble with the lights.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (T3Bunny)*

I've done it, what do you need to know?
Video of them in action (ignore the silly low rpm points, neighbours wouldn't have been too happy with me about sitting in the driveway bouncing off 7000rpm







)


_Modified by martyn_16v at 4:40 PM 12-12-2005_


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (martyn_16v)*

That is AWESOME!







My brother was just looking at it, and thought it would be cool to put the LED's at the perimeter of the tach, and have them light up as the needle passes them. I am assuming that required 3 outputs?


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (patatron)*

It only uses two output pins from MS, with a bit of logic to convert that to three externally. The circuit is straight off the MS'n'S-Extra instructions, although i'd change the 1k resistor in the logic stage for something higher (50k maybe) as the 'high' LED glows gently all the time otherwise.
Putting the LEDs in the tach should be do-able, there's a fair bit of space behind the tach face if I remember correctly (on a mk2 golf at least). I just used the spare LED holes that were already there, makes it look stock from the outside.
Pics of what I did


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (martyn_16v)*

Martyn, that "glowing dimmly" is EXACTLY whats pissing me off. I have it setup in a spare cluster center bit on my bench. The circuit design is actualy faulty








I got some help from some electron wizzes much smarter than I in such matters and a few mods to the circuit were recommended. I will impliment and test and let you know. In the meantime, what value resistors did you use for dropping the voltage off the LEDs down? IE the ones between your LEDs and the power stage to them? And did you use 5v or 12v to power them?
I used 5v directly per the directions that came with the MsnSe_Extra card, and within minutes had burned half them out








Fortunatly it was on the bench, or I would been too mad to get the cluster out in one peice










_Modified by T3Bunny at 6:03 AM 12-12-2005_


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (T3Bunny)*

I've seen a couple of solutions to fix the glowing dimly, some say a bigger resistor in the logic stage does the job fine, others suggest an additional diode somewhere to better force the high transistor to stop conducting. I've been meaning to try the resistor for ages, just a case of me actually getting around to pulling the cluster out to do it.
I used 12V LEDs, they're a bit more expensive (only a couple of pence more each IIRC) but they don't need current limiting resistors so saved a bit of space on the transistor stage board on the bottom of the cluster. I took 12V from the voltage regulator on the back of the cluster (from the unregulated side, didn't want to risk messing up the instrument readings).


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (martyn_16v)*

Okay Martyn_16v we got it figured out and verified! Another diode is the key. D5 in the diagram below is the new one. This setup solves all the issues I was having with the dim to bright glowing of the high limit leds.








Here is a picture of the bottom of my daughtercard where I actualy did the mods. The red lines are where the traces need to be cut. Sorry for bad pic quality. Looks like the bottom point is solder bridged, its not!


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: Sequential shift lights?! (T3Bunny)*

Good stuff, that looks like what I was thinking of. That's easy to add to mine as well, I could be lazy and just put it inline in the wiring harness, will save me pulling the cluster out


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## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*lost RPM signal when upgraded from MS to MSnS*

Hello guys; 
I had my MS V2.2 working for a yr or so, then I decided to move to MSnS-E so while modifying the board I guess I shorted something by mistake, "maybe while testing with the multimeter probes" and I lost the RPM output, my board is setup for MSnS-E now, so no more XG1-XG2 connection, XG1 is connected to X11 and JP1-8 to pin24, I have my stim moded for msns-e now. I have another MS board I already moded it to MSnS-E and it read RPM no pbm, but the first unit doesn't, I did all the power output testing and all is fine, but still now RPM. 
I installed Megadoctor and it did not really help coz no rpm. 
what do u advise me to do, I know I need to change a part on that board, but cannot tell which one. 
I have been trying to figure it out with out annoying u for a week now with no luck 
best regards 
Nabil


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: lost RPM signal when upgraded from MS to MSnS (nabilsx)*

do you have pin 24 jumpered to pin 27?


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*MegaSquirt 1 2.2 Map sensor question*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_I am setting up a modified MS I 2.2 for datalogging to an LM-1, and to feed the MS a wideband signal. I have put external jacks on the MS case to tap into them using the LMA-2. I have pretty much everything set, but I need to find the specs for the internal map sensor to program the voltage signal to the LM-1 so it converts it correctly to KPA. I am basically looking for 0 Volts =X kpa, and 5 Volts = X kpa. Pictures of my rig to show what i am doing here.....








Thanks for any input you can offer. -Pat

I posted this on MSEFI, but i know that thwere are many very well educated MS users in this particular thread. I plan on doing some datalogging with the LM-1 later this evening, and cant seem to find these specs anywhere, this is the only thing hanging my project up. Thanks for any help -Pat


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: MegaSquirt 1 2.2 Map sensor question (patatron)*

Digikey or google is your friend for datasheets on components.. but since you havn't looked there.. 
Heres a link to Eric's site <he writes megatune> and happens to have the PDF's for lots of the common components there.
http://not2fast.wryday.com/ele...A.pdf


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: MegaSquirt 1 2.2 Map sensor question (CdnDub)*

Thanks, that is where I found this....


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: MegaSquirt 1 2.2 Map sensor question (patatron)*

Thanks for tossing me that Pat! I was staring at it on the way to the store... Now to go build up some configuration files!
Dave, Hows that VR6 megasquirting going? The.msq for that and the EDIS vr you did would make a NICE Christmass present!


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: MegaSquirt 1 2.2 Map sensor question (T3Bunny)*

How the **** do you erase the LM-1? Mine is about 55% full, and nobody i have talked to knows how to erase the memory on it! I have got most of it dialed in, and have only had it a few days, but need to know how to erase it!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: MegaSquirt 1 2.2 Map sensor question (patatron)*

I'll get you the EDIS file... its been a little nuts i'm still catching up and trying to get ready for christmas.. Its all good though..
The VR6 was coming this weekend but the owner and I decided its too close to christmas to start another project so its coming the week after christmas and should be a fairly quick install with MS.. I'll likely throw a wideband on it and dial it in on the street as well.


----------



## R18 (Sep 14, 2004)

To reset the LM1, keep the "record button" pushed for a few seconds to erase the memory.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *R18* »_To reset the LM1, keep the "record button" pushed for a few seconds to erase the memory.

I think mine is broken, that doesn't work.







When I have it connected to nothing, turn it on, and hold the rec. button for a few seconds, when I let go, all it does is come up with this random RPM reading that bounces around and usually counts down a bit, and then uually just stops.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Megasquirting VR6 (CdnDub)*

Cool! Yeah, if you dial it in then I definatly want the after one! This explains my current lack of motivation....








But I got motivated enough to install the new rear shocks! 











_Modified by T3Bunny at 3:47 PM 12-18-2005_


----------



## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: lost RPM signal when upgraded from MS to MSnS (MidnightGLI)*

no I don't have pin24 jumpered to pin27, I have it this way
XG1-X11
JP1-8-Pin24
The stimulator gets modded with a jumper wire off of r9 over to the pin the signal is going back into the ECU on. A trace has to be cut underneath the stim from the t1 leg over to pin 24. 
this is working on 1 unit but something is wrong on the other unit and the pbm is not within the mods it self, but within some parts on the board. I have to say that this is the same setup that T3bunny is using.

yesterday I tested the unit with the scope making a comparison btn the good MS and the bad one, Q2 and Q7 IRFIZ34N voltage differs big time btn the good and the bad unit, the results are as follows this is measured from the board edge to the inside towards the DB37 that is
good MS pin1 measures about 8v, pin2 400mv and pin3 300mv on both Q2 and Q7.
bad MS pin1 measures 400mv pin2 3.4V and pin3 300mv on both Q2 and Q7.
what do u guys think, I changed Q2 and Q7 as well as D7 and pbm was not solved.
what do u think?
regards
Nabil


----------



## nabilsx (Jun 8, 2000)

*Re: lost RPM signal when upgraded from MS to MSnS (nabilsx)*

ok found whats wrong with my MSnS unit, its pin6 on U4, when I touch it with my finger RPM works just fine, when I take my finger off it stops, "its loves the way I touch her what can I say







" anyway tried desoldering, cleaning then resoldering and pbm was not solved







.
so what would u advise me to do now guys? me reached a brick wall








its U4 pin6 and my finger, I thought about cutting my finger and attaching it to the unit but i won't fit the MS case








regards
merry christmas to come


_Modified by nabilsx at 10:39 AM 12-22-2005_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: lost RPM signal when upgraded from MS to MSnS (nabilsx)*

U4 is the optical trigger thing. I am not seeing pin referances with a quick look... but check the second page of the v2.2 schemantics I sent you. You have a cap right there. 
When your touching it your working as a big capaciter.... So if you cut your finger off most likely the capacitive value would then be wrong. Then it wouldn't work again, and you would realy be screwed.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I just got my techedge wb02 diy kit in the mail... I'm on vacation right now, but I'm going to try to crank it out in the evenings... I'm lucky they didn't think it was a bomb or something on my checked luggage at the air-port *lol*
Anyone else assembled a tech-edge DIY unit?


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_Anyone else assembled a tech-edge DIY unit?

Yeah, it's fairly straightforward. The instructions aren't quite as friendly as the MS ones but it's a fairly easy build, just a bit time consuming.
They released a whole load of new documentation the very day after I finished building mine, it looked a lot better than what I was working on too


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

I also recieved a Tech-edge WB kit (With sensor!) that is already assembled and may work for all I know. I got it in a box full of stuff in this random car deal. I have not taken the time to play with it yet because MY LM-1 rules my life!


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

majic,
I also built the Tech Edge 2A0 and the LD01 display. The instructions are not all that good. You will see odd differances in part terminology (probably due to the fact that it is from Austrailia). Once you're past that it's not too hard to build. The board is alot tighter than the MS V2.2 board. It works great other than the display seems to randomly change brightness ( even if you cover the light sensor ). The display issue may have been corrected in the LD02 though. The readings were very close to the dyno I did a while back. It was the perfect next project for myself after building MSnS.


----------



## lroy12 (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

i am installing megasquirt now and i cant get the car to idle








i seem to have an issue with my voltage dipping down to ~10 when cranking.. is this preventing my injectors from squirting (stock aba injectors ~16 ohms) ?
i also am having trouble finding the tach signal on my obd2 car... i have it conected to the signal wire coming from my hall sensor.. is this correct? thankss!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (lroy12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lroy12* »_i am installing megasquirt now and i cant get the car to idle








i seem to have an issue with my voltage dipping down to ~10 when cranking.. is this preventing my injectors from squirting (stock aba injectors ~16 ohms) ?
i also am having trouble finding the tach signal on my obd2 car... i have it conected to the signal wire coming from my hall sensor.. is this correct? thankss!

Replied to your PM about this, but I'll reiterate here:
On Mendra's car we used a V2.2 and I installed a Digi2 distributor using the TT adaptor and ABA gear to get the tach input. If yours is a 3.0 board, you should wire it for a VR signal and use the stock crank sensor.
You CAN NOT use the stock 2L ABA distro as is and expect a tach signal as it is only one pulse per two revs, it's only used as a cam sync for the sequential injection as stock and not for an ignition trigger.


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Hi guys. anyone ever look into using Megaview? I was at it and I was thinking about getting one to view AFR and other setting with MS v2.2 with the extra code. can MV work with the extra code?


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

tyrone27, 
I looked into Megaview when I ordered my first MS board and decided to use a laptop intstead. I like to have more data on a screen at one time so I use a laptop when I need to change stuff.
Can you use MV with extra code? Yes. But you need to be able to reprogram and flash the MV CPU to be able to read the data from whichever version of MS you have. There are several versions available for download but after a quick check I didn't see any Extra versions. Also I would think that you would need a version that is specifically coded for your exact version of Extra.
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=6753
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic...art=0
I recomend using a laptop with 800x600 resolution or higer and whichever flavor of megatune you desire to get started. You could possibly use a PDA if you want something small enough to mount in the car, have more than 2 lines of viewable data, and more functionality than MV. 
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=8099


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

yea. but this is why I was looking at Megaview. its because its the only display I seen for MS besides a MT that has a AFR gauge. I looked at Palm and looking through the screen shots there isn't one. there is a oxygen sensor voltage but no AFR. My understanding on MV is that it actaully shows you your AFR you are running. I have a laptop 3 actaully and I don't want to have to hook my laptop hooked up all the time in the passengerside seat watching my values. with MV I can just put in the dash and it will show my my values and if somethign goes wrong I'll know where it went wrong and have a better way of dignosing the problem without having to turn my head 90 degrees from the road while driving to look at the laptop. 
If Palm has a AFr gauge it would be a better choice but I have yet to see a screen shot of comments on one for that unit. if anyone know if it has one please feel free to correct me.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Megaview doesnt work with the extra code AFAIK.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

SInce your going to be using theLC-1, forget all those complications and crap. Get a volt meter panel gauge and use that. Your LC-1 can be configured to output a voltage to the panel meter so that it DIRECTLY displays the Air Fuel Ratio.  
You have to use a 200mv panel meter (IIRC). You can even get these beotches with green backlighting to match you clock style perfectly. Replace your probally useless clock in the instrument cluster with it and your good to go!


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic...d1621


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Well, thanks to Megasquirt, a turbo and >12psi of boost I'll be replacing the 1.6L block shortly with an ABA. It was fun while it lasted.
What does the ABA use as a warm-up regulator? PWM valve or something else?


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

block or head lifted?


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (tyrone27)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrone27* »_block or head lifted?

I think the bearings are scorched - it's really tough to turn over by hand.


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

hi everybody.........im trying to run MSnS on my ABA16vt.......but its really confusing.........
MT.....2.25b717
extracode 024s13c
i loaded my megasquirt........and it works, couple of guages are white, but mostly dark pink............
i am using relayboard..........and really confused w/ where to plug all my wires into, and all those jumpers........too confusing........
CTS is from 16v head....2 wires
air sensor is from ABA.......two wires
TPS is from VR6 3 wires
ignition module......only 4 wires??????
O2 sensor..so far i only got one...3 wires bosch
16v dizzy 3 wire hall sensor
i know i need 5v for the hall...but dono where to get it
FP............i only got 1 wire......yellow/red, do i need the ground too???????
shed some light to help me get my car at least running

what would be my next step, after loading the megasquirt, and downloading MT........


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (wethvento)*

Answers in bold.

_Quote, originally posted by *wethvento* »_

CTS is from 16v head....2 wires *to clt and clt return*
air sensor is from ABA.......two wires *to iat and iat return*
TPS is from VR6 3 wires *use Vref, tps, and tps return*
ignition module......only 4 wires??????* it gets power, ground, a trigger from the ms to Fidle, and one wire to the coil *
O2 sensor..so far i only got one...3 wires bosch *heater power from 12v switched anywhere and ground, signal to O2*
16v dizzy 3 wire hall sensor *12v/5v depending on wiring, ground, and output to tach on MS relay*
i know i need 5v for the hall...but dono where to get it *5v is Vref on the relay IIRC.*
FP............i only got 1 wire......yellow/red, do i need the ground too???????
*the fuel pump wire to a stock ECU is a ground, just plug that into FP on the relay board. If it's a power wire you need to change things around a bit.*
shed some light to help me get my car at least running

what would be my next step, after loading the megasquirt, and downloading MT........


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (wethvento)*

Did you modify the MS ECU for the ignition output? and are you using hte FIDLE output for ignition or did you jumper one of the LED outputs over to the spare pins.. 
If you use the FIDLE you need to jumper the FIDLE relay socket to bypass the relay or you can solder a jumper wire right to the board around the relay.
The sensors all sound fine and shoudl be marked fairly easily on the relay board, have you looked at the megamanual i know it doesnt show the relay board itself but MAT is MAnifold air temp, and i think its MAT RET for MAT ground you can use any of the sensor grounds for any sensor or tie them all to the same ground.. TPS Signal is the signal wire TPS Vref is the +5 V reference signal TPS GRND is the TPS ground.
Not sure what else to tell you without more details.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

Since I'm posting..
The Customers VR6 Mk3 arrived last night.. hoping to have the ECU configured and installed by this weekend, its a fully stock ODB2 VR with coilpack but wont idle currently since its got an ODB1 ECU hooked up.
I'm going to try to wire it up using the stock Twistlock connector at the engine and will be driving the stock coilpack.
Dave


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*








Its arrived YAY!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Yeah.. the owner and I were stalling before christmas.. No one wants to take on another project at the busiest time of the year. I'll probably start another thread with the VR6 info, I hate to crosspost so it may end up in the VR6 forum.
Dave


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Be so kind as to put a link up here for us then! I realy don't poke about the Tex a whole bunch other than for this thread...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Since I'm posting..
The Customers VR6 Mk3 arrived last night.. hoping to have the ECU configured and installed by this weekend, its a fully stock ODB2 VR with coilpack but wont idle currently since its got an ODB1 ECU hooked up.
I'm going to try to wire it up using the stock Twistlock connector at the engine and will be driving the stock coilpack.
Dave

Hurry up, I got a car here waiting and I'm not motivated enough to figure it out myself


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Did you modify the MS ECU for the ignition output? and are you using hte FIDLE output for ignition or did you jumper one of the LED outputs over to the spare pins.. 
If you use the FIDLE you need to jumper the FIDLE relay socket to bypass the relay or you can solder a jumper wire right to the board around the relay.

NO I HAVENT MODIFIES IT FOR IGNITION OUTPUT, THE PERSON WHO HAD IT BE4 ME WAS RUNNING FUEL ONLY ON A VW BUS
*WHAT WOULD BE THE THE MORE RELIABLE/EASIER WAY OUT OF THESE TWO OPTIONS, AND WHAT EXACTLY I HAVE TO DO*


_Modified by wethvento at 4:06 PM 1-3-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Hurry up, I got a car here waiting and I'm not motivated enough to figure it out myself










GEEZ man.... Now hes NEVER going to tell us! You can't OUTRIGHT admit this!















I CAN'T fire mine up without a working rig... My frigging scope died JUST as I was realy getting the hang of it. And my cars been sitting for long enough I got locked up brakes. I gots to fire it up, adjust the required fule and hit the street SCREAMING! Last time I had to "unlock" brakes on her, you couldn't see anything for over a block behind the car!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Your the only person i've ever heard of having to "unlock" the front brakes..
did the pads seize to the rotor or what? Call me old skool but i'd be in there with some new pads and rebuilding or replacing the calipers.
I'll post the info as i get it.. I'm not really expecting it to be that difficult.
THe only hard part is figuring out which tooth is TDC, i think it may be 14teeth after the missing teeth but I have no idea.. and AFAIK this changed between the ODB1 and ODB2 blocks by 2 teeth, but that may be rumors... would certainly explain why his ECU doesnt want to run the engine though.
Dave


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Not realy fully seized... Just super rusty from sitting. Last time I had left the emergancy brake on and it had seized up. Soon as I abused the heck out of them for a few minutes, it was all back to normal. The A3 donor car had new brakes stuffed onto it all the way around about a yaer ago, then didn't get driven due to a failed OBD-2 evap system not letting me get it through inspection. Then half the airbags went... SO I swapped the engine and driveline into the A2 last fall. A LOT cheaper since the emissions BS and airbags would have set me back an easy 5k.
I will have to do some smoking to get the brakes clean and all happy. I will likely replace the pads afterwards. I realy can't afford to do it "properly" at the moment. My definition of proper is Zimmerman x-drilled all around and Mintex pads. I agree though, its going to need work and I do NOT like doing it this way. But I have to get this car online so I can asses what all it will be needing.
Gods, u got to love it! I am too broke to afford a proper brake job, but with MegaSquirt I can STILL put a standalone ECU into the car! MegaSquirt is the best!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

just a teaser In case you guys didnt believe i was actually ever gonna do a VR6


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

"Using FIDLE to drive the spark output 
This sacrificies the ability to use an on/off or PWM idle valve. You take your ignition output from pin 30 on the DB37. 
If you are using FIDLE as your spark output and have the relay board you will need to remove and jumper the FIDLE relay on the board. 
See the following pictures, the FIDLE output on the relay board then goes to your ignition module".......this quote is from MSnS page.......
if i did that i dont need to jump anything else???????i should have a spark output at the "fidle" port on my relay board??????
how would i check all this stuff w/ a multimeter, i just got one.......and dont know how to use it......reallly........its digital, and its got a lotta options,......would all the voltage be in DC?????...

and also......is it a problem if my pigtail fro ignition module only has 4 wires????


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

You realy need to realy have a VERY good idea as to what your doing. You do not need to make ANY changes on the relay board. Leave it as is to run the fidle. You will want to add an additional output into your MS ECU to control spark. 
As for you ingnition module pigtail, I have heard the four pin ones do not have the pins in the right locations. I had the other avalible and used it on my first one. I thought it was funny that I only used FOUR wires on it though...
The first one is the hardest. I can do a full conversion from a running CIS system to a running MS system in a weekend now! Just study and absorb. Read the MegaManual like 5 times and your on the right track!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, I thought it was 13 teeth. I have an ABA on the stand I can count tonight though to confirm. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

yeah i've got it written down somewhere it may be 13 teeth







I just rattled a number off.. i'm still gonna drop the pan to confirm on the VR its not that big a job.


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

ok..........right now my board is fuel only.........and i want to run MSnS.
i have relay board...........am i getting a spark output outta "FIDLE" terminal on relay board if i only took the fidle relay out and jumped it.............or do i need to do something else??????
what should i c on a multimeter when 1 led goes to ground, and the other one to "FIDLE" terminal on relay board

i think i do need to do something to the board for spark output, but im not sure..........cuse in the megamanual, it says just to jump the fidle relay, and you will have a spark output, but here you guys talking bout baut "LED17".......can someone please explain for hardheaded everything about "LED17"........what it is, where it is, what to do w/ it, if anything........

please, please please


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

ok i just found "D17" on my board and "D14" in the megamanual the description is confusing on what to do w/ them, and the diagram, i dont really understand it..............HEEEEEEEELLLLLPPPPP


_Modified by wethvento at 3:56 PM 1-4-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

I sent you a diagram and some pretty good pictures and info. You should read through that and the MegaManual. If your still not grasping it, well there are places that will do the mods for you. 
I offer that service myself.
From your previous posts and im's, you don't think you need to even use fidle control. So you can procede with using your relay board fidle output. You do not even need to modify the relay box. Just swap the wire going to pin 30 to say pin 36. Pin 36 goes to one of the s outputs. 
Not to be harsh, but if your to learn anything there is a lot of study you need to do to get there. The questions your asking are fairly basic and simple ones that reading the availble documentations will help you with. The problem here is nobody can tell you whats best for your setup unless you hand it over to a compotent installer and discuss it with them. There are several on this thread that fit that description. 
As most of you also know, Patatron and I offer kits from a basic install to a full plug in harnes even to a full conversion including EFI bits. CdnDub will do everything including installation and tuning. 
The hardware setup is the easy part. A lot of people on this thread have been there before. All the information is well documented here for you. If you can't get past that point, your likely going to have a hard time getting past the other issues.


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

ive been reading the msefi forums, havent checked ur pics yet..........everytime i read it over i learn soin else.........but thats what im trying to do..........learn.........thats the first reason i got my 91 jetta in the garage...........i really wanna figure this out myself, but how much u guys charge for the kits to plug and play.........i got all the components..............


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (wethvento)*

Does anyone know if there is good MSnS -E write up for the V3 board floatin around anywhere ?? Thanx
-Chris


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

wethvento, 
I will email you further information. Toss me an email later today as a reminder since I am off to bed in a few.
Captain16vGTI,
Check back along this thread... Perhaps 5-8 pages ago, CdnDub wrote it all out for the V3.0 setup. Also read the relevant section in the MegaManual after ys read Dave's info!


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Thank you Jamie for guiding me in the right direction http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . That info was very informative but I was wondering if Dave ever found those V3 pictures. Thanks again guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

-Chris


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

No problem! If Dave doesn't find those pictures... I will take some as I set mine up. Its about time to do a writeup for the V3.0 anyways!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I'm pretty sure I dropped the V3 info in this thread somewhere around page 12-14.. Cant recall if i posted pics or not lol.
I've got a few V3 ECU's going out the door soon setup for Hall and Crank trigger fo a VW so i'll take some fresh photos.
But whats the saying, theres more than one way to skin a cat?
So my way wont be the same as everyone elses way to accomplish the same goal.


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

That would be awesome if there was a really thorough write up with pictures covering the V3 board. Two different write ups showing the different ways to do it would very interesting also. I cant wait to see em guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Chris


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_.... Two different write ups showing the different ways to do it would very interesting also. I cant wait to see em guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Chris

Its my way or bust!








BUT, If ya want to send me more ecu's... I can do it other ways. One additional method per ecu!


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

heeeyyyy........i just ran a wire from lowest jp1 hole to the right side of D5, then from XG1 to x11, and now im bout to run a wire from neg(-) of d17 to x13...........i just wanted to confirm if this is correct.........and will work.........also i dont have a 1k resistor to put between d17 and r23..........would that be a problem or could i go without it??????????? i think im getting it.........and it all goes to my relay board.........the soldering is kinda messy but its alright, and its hard to solder wires onto db37


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wethvento* »_...also i dont have a 1k resistor to put between d17 and r23..........would that be a problem or could i go without it???????????

You need to do it per the directions. Those are copied directly from the Sourceforge site. At best it won't work, at worst it could toast something. Use the proven method until you understand the why and how of it.

_Quote, originally posted by *wethvento* »_ and its hard to solder wires onto db37

Hence the reason I showed locations on the v2.2 board you could use to prevent this. Also at the relay board side you could cut the wires, Swap accordingly and solder/heatshtink them. No need at all to putz with soldering to the DB-37 pins.


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

does that mean that the first part is oight???????? the jp1 to d5, xg1 to x11????????
if you didnt say anything about it????
and where could i get that 1k resistor from?????????

sorry for being obnoxious


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

I don't know at the moment without digging out a wiring diagram. 
As for the resistors, Radio Shack has a nice big pack of assorted 1/4 watt ones for $6 or $7.


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

is that 1/4 of a watt........quarter?????of a watt
or 1-4???????
im not that good w/ electronics........im sorry

hey.....t3bunny.........do you know this ukrainian guy sergey from rochester?????//just someone i know.......


_Modified by wethvento at 11:59 AM 1-6-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

1/4 watt resistors. They will be the same size as the ones making up most of your V2.2 ECU.
That name sounds VERY familiar...


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

VR6 is underway.. I'm undecided on how much of the stock harness i'll save.. Right now i'm tempted to just build a complete new one
















This is how the fuse box looked when i dropped it down


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

thats crazy........cdndub

ok.....i ran a wire from lowest jp1 hole to the right side of D5, then from XG1 to x11, and now i ran a 1/4watt 1k transisto from neg(-) of d17 to to d23 i think......and a wire to come out on my relay board at s4........
if you guys know the voltages i should be getting from all the terminals on the relay board.........like hall return, coil, fidle, 
and what would be some first changes, setups i would do in megatune...........i set one thing to distributor MsnS, and d17 coil output, and burned to ECU, and the light closest to d9 is always on.........i assume this is good................any tips??????


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

trying to get my sensors to work.........
i did the custom and then made a msns-extra_mod.s19
where do i place it and do i replace any files when i place this one into a needed folder, 
and the 3 notepad files......matfactor, thermfactor, airdenfactor, where do i place them, and same thing do i replace any w/ these
how do i load the values of sensors into my megasquirt???????and make it work on MT???
thanks.....


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

If you want your life to be easy and accurate, use GM sensors. When you understand whats going on and can follow the promots Easy Therm tells you to follow, then feel free to use Bosch. 
In my experiances though, Easy Therm is not accurate enough for Bosch sensor values. First the default values are NOT accurate for a lot of the sensors. Ours were off by 20 degrees in the hot range. Also Bosch sensor resistances follow a curve instead of a straight line. I think to make them work accuratly at least 7 points need to be input. To do this, you have to modify the files by hand. If your having trouble with Easy Therm, I wouldn't even attempt to explain how to do it manually... 


_Modified by T3Bunny at 2:24 PM 1-7-2006_


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

i think manualy would be a lot easier, cuse i got the values for both sensors from bentley, i just need to know what to modify, i know its in those 2 notepad files..............just not really sure what to change........
i already have bosch sensors..........and im not trying to go out and buy 2 more sensors.............
ima go back to reading............if you wanna share something that will make my life easier.......please do so.........i appreciate it........you guys already helped me a lot..........but i dont even think im halway to have it fire up.......i know theres a lot more to go


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (wethvento)*

If you don't understand what Easy Therm is doing, manualy WOULD NOT BE EASIER. You have to go in and recpompile the actual SORCE CODE then rewrite all the include files. Not to be rude here, but I know what I am doing and its NOT EASY. 
They made the Easy Therm program to keep people with no clue from having to go in and do it by hand. If you write code and program for a living... then it might be easier. But Your questions are showing that you don't grasp yet how the actual programs work and what they do.
If your putting in values from a chart, even the Bently one, its not going to be accurate with the Bosch stuff. We used that Bently chart. With BRAND NEW SENSORS it was off by over 20 degrees. If you want any chance of accuracey, you need to compile the values manualy for your exact sensor. By this, I mean take measurements ACCURATLY with your Ohm meter as it warms up from an ice bath. Use a lazer temp gun. These values could then be manualy input into the Easy Therm program instead of using the defalut Bosch stuff. 
ANd you said you were using BOTH Bosch sensors? Realy... What are you using for an IAT one? I have yet to see a Bosch IAT sensor... Sure, the airvane meters have one, but your tring to get RID of those. If your car isn't going to be turboed, then you can use a coolant sensor. But its response time is too slow for an IAT on a turbo car.


_Modified by T3Bunny at 3:24 PM 1-7-2006_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I hate to correct you T3Bunny.. but all sensors are going to follow a curve there is never a straight line, its just the GM one is a little straighter than the Bosch ones, and the 3points that you are allowed for easytherm is not really enough to calibrate to the Bosch ones perfectly.. however i've used lots of GM and VW <bosch or otherwise> sensors on installs, the coolant is really the least important if its out by a few degree's just bias your warmup maps by a few degree's, For this guys case it may be easiest to just change the bias resistor value by a little to match up closer.. the IAT signal is however more important and lately i've been sticking to GM sensors since the curve is perfect and I generally have to add one anyways especially on the turbo cars where i'm redoing the intake plumbing anyways.
And cars where the MAF has been removed usually the IAT has come out too, but for the VR6 i'm doing i'm going to give it my best shot to use the Factory VW IAT signal.


----------



## wethvento (Jun 3, 2002)

yeah its hard..........but in the files.....i only have to change one number after DB????????is this correct or not??????
the IAT is from a ABA........i think it should work................it supposed to measure temp right????????thats what it does

oh yeah........i got a gm air sensor.........would that be better then the bosch ABA one??????


_Modified by wethvento at 10:03 PM 1-7-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I hate to correct you T3Bunny...








Its all good! I am diehard old skool! When a year of poking didn't fix the CEL light in the 98 VR6... I swapped the car!








For the most part I only seriously play with the '92 and older cars. I never noticed an IAT sensor in my VR6 and was under the apparently mistaken impression VW used the MAF signal as an intake sensor also... I know that in the cars with an airvane type deal that its inside there.
Cool, that sheds a lot more light on the sensor curve issue also. I would guess that the best way then is to use points closest to where you want the most accuracy then. HUM.... Back to some expirimentation on my test rig!


----------



## davidvwm350 (Nov 26, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

i tried the search but found nothing.but what do i have to do to the v2.2 megasquirt 1 to do spark i know what to do after the db37 but not on the other end (ecu side).is it just a couple o jumpers and splices?the stock knock box isn't cutting it any more need something i can adjust


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (davidvwm350)*

Thought i'd post a quick update on the VR6..
I spent most of yesterday draining 9 liters of oil/gas from the oilpan before checking the trigger wheel to see where its at when the motor is at TDC.. 
Oh the oil and gas, since i'm sure some are curious is apparnetly from a much too rich mixture, the owner was told he has the wrong ECU for the car, its an ODB1 passat ECU hooked to a 97 VR6 ODB2 engine, I think the MAF matches the ECU so i'm not sure what else would be different.. The motor certainly didnt want to run very well though, and i did find some suspect wiring.
Turns out the Trigger wheel is at 14 teeth after the two missing teeth which i guess makes it tooth 16? This is an ODB2 engine though and i've heard the triggers changed positions between the odb1 and odb2 motors but that may be rumor.
On the other hand i've cut the harness up into many small pieces and labelled a lot of it.. 
And managed to dissassemble the stock 7pin Throttle body and figure out what all those wires actually do.
I've got the pinout and once confirmed it will be part of my actual writeup and eventual VR6 dropin "kit" 
For now 3 wires are TPS, two wires are ground and signal for an Idle switch.
and two wires are for the idle control motor, if i'm correct its just a PWM motor like any of the other VW idle valves and we should be able to control it to make the car idle as good or better than stock when cold.
And the project continues. Should be running by this weekend still.














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

hi guys. found this on the web yesterday about the LC-1 was told that is display can be used to view AFR off the lc-1 but got hits back saying it will only display voltage and I would have to figure it out in my head what the AFR is by the voltage. just thought I would post it up if anyone can get it to work as a AFr gauge post the setup info so I can get it. here are the links
http://www.innovatemotorsports...splay
http://www.mpja.com/productvie...05+ME


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Derric, It displays the AFR DIRECTLY. The reason you have to use a panel meter with a specific range is to get the decimal place in the right spot. The LC-1 is configured for the correct reading and puts out 14.7 millivolts when the AFR is 14.7.
Its all in the setup of the LC-1 and just using a panell meter that reads the correct millivolt range.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

SWEET! Good news on that throttle body! I was afraid it was going to be a stepper motor setup...
Please toss out a link if you start a new thread for that!


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

ok cool. i'm going to order 2 of them.


----------



## I-Rocco2 (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (diygti)*

Do you know if Mega 3.0 would drive the IM for the coil packs on a 1.8 20V Or any other standalone?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (I-Rocco2)*

what do you mean by IM?
It should happily drive a 1.8T coilpack.. are you talking about the 3 wire or 4 wire coils?


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

CdnDub -- so are you junking the stock ecu and throwing away the dash? The problem I'm faced with is the prospect of losing all my dash functions and my radio functions if I throw out my ECU... I'm prepairing to install on a MK4 vr6 that's been supercharged. I don't have a turnloc plug as in the mk3 vr6 that I know of... I think there is some other central wiring bulkhead that I've not been able to locate thus far. I've got a slow coolant leak and a ripped CV boot so these projects are taking presidence... I'm going to try to take pictures to keep you guys in the know on my project. 
I expect I'll ahve the entire front end off, to include the radiator, so it will be helpful in discovering things about the wiring harness of a MK4 vr6. I'm hoping that the mk3 obdII and mk4 obd2 60-2 wheel and sensor are lined up the same... I had the oilpan off about a month ago (cracked it on a manhole cover, WTF), but I didn't take that opportunity to investigate... 
I'm going to make the BIG assumption that the car will still try to crank without the coilpack plugged in... furthermore, I'm going to make an even bigger assumption and play ball with motronic and just short out the injector leads with an equivalent resistor... I'd like to throw the car back to stock in a weekend or two if I ever needed to get emissions done... but there is no forseeable reason to get emissions (I'm in the military so I don't have to get emissions done on my car unless I bring it back to the state where I'm a legal resident, cool perk). 
As for everyone else that's assembled at Tech-edge WB02 2A0 unit... I doubt whether anyone can tell me, but does the vr6 use the 6066 sensor or the 7057 sensor?


----------



## I-Rocco2 (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

AEB 1.8T 1999 Passat I think there 4 wire. IM is Igntion module. I have the V2.2 for the 16V was planning on V3.0 for Passat. I want to run throttle bodies and get rid of the turbo. Could it be run off original spark controls?


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (I-Rocco2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I-Rocco2* »_AEB 1.8T 1999 Passat I think there 4 wire. IM is Igntion module. I have the V2.2 for the 16V was planning on V3.0 for Passat. I want to run throttle bodies and get rid of the turbo. Could it be run off original spark controls?










Its usually referred to as an ICM.. That's probably why no one knew what you were talkin about.
-Chris


_Modified by Captain16vGTI at 12:45 AM 1-11-2006_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

We pulled the ECU, it wasnt stock, the VR didnt come in that car it had a 1.8L origionally, the ECU was marked 95 passat, and the engine was from a 97 Jetta from what i understand.
The dash and gauge cluster will stay, i'm pretty sure that the stock gauge cluster on a mk3 just needs a tach signal to run the tach and MS can generate that.
The mk4's are a totally different ballgame, you have to retain the stock ECU or the cluster wont work, its all running off the CANbus
The mk4 will be definitely more difficult than a mk3, but it sounds like you are on the right track.


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I know that I'm going to lose features like MPG readout, and most def cruse control (as I'll have to convert to a drive by cable assembly). I'm trying to source some parts for that particular job, and I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to use as the throttle cable bracket. I've considered a few options, one of which is buying 034efi's solution for the 1.8 (for the cable bracket, that is). The other is just to find a mk3 vr6 and take all the parts that I want. The latter is the harder because i can't seem to source any good mk3 vr's around here. If anyone is in west florida and can give me a good lead on where to find a mk3 vr6 that someone is parting out, let me know!


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

IF you want any functionality of the stock dash you will need to keep the stock ECU and share the signals from a few areas, like the VR sensor pickup etc or it wont have an RPM signal and then wont have lots of other things.
The stuff that i'm not certain about is the Immobilizer portion and the ignition key.. It may work just fine if MS is setup more as a piggyback system than anything else, but i'm sure the stock ECU will get thrown into limp mode or trip a CEL if its missing one of a few key signals.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

and for fun.. some pics of the VR6 pickups and the throttle body

















Interesting info on the TB.. its 0-5volts on the two wires, not 0-12.. and pulls about an amp. it also works with -5 to 0 volts if wired in reverse it will close the throttle rather than open it.
It appears i'll have to add a 5volt regulator somewhere and then run the MS PWM code along with it.


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## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
Interesting info on the TB.. its 0-5volts on the two wires, not 0-12.. and pulls about an amp. it also works with -5 to 0 volts if wired in reverse it will close the throttle rather than open it.

The TPS is 0 - 5V ? Isn't that standard? Or are you talking about whatever controls idle?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (ijcameron)*

I'm talking about the two wire Idle motor in that throttle body.. which is common to most of the mk3 motors.. basically any vw that doesnt have an ISV and isnt drive by wire will have one of these from what i can tell.
The TPS is on a seperate 3 wires and does need a +5V Vref signal but thats totally seperate.
Its a 7 wire plug, 2 wires are for the idle switch <tells the ECU when the throttle pedal is released>, two are for the Idle Stabilizer motor, and 3 are for the TPS power, signal and ground.
I'm working on the circuitry needed to control the motor..


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, I can't tell you how greatful I am to you for pioneering MS on a coilpack VR6 using stock ignition parts. I was talking with T3Bunny over the summer and we were working on getting it up and running using all of the stock parts but I lost my job and kinda lost interest but I've been following your progress on this project and your answering alot of the questions I had regarding the setup...TPS pinout, tooth # at TDC etc. I started reading up about again about a week ago to refresh my memory and thats when I saw you started the VR6 project.. I still haven't bought my system yet but I'm working again and have been looking to buy a kit. I was going to buy the kit from Glen's Garage but have since decided to buy it from you even though your in Canada and shipping can get hairy sometimes. I'm going to be building my first kit but want to source it from you since you'll know exactly what I'm going to need. When you finish this, expect an order for 2 MSI v.3 for both my VRs!


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (darren p.)*

Thanks Darren,
I'll actually have modified MS V3 ECU's with all the required bits for sale so it should be a matter of just wiring up the wires and following a diagram and if the motor is reasonbly stock you should be able to just drive away.. no worries about setting the ignition etc since the trigger wheel isnt about to move. Should make for a pretty painfree standalone option for VR6's
And eventually 1.8T's and ABA's etc..


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_it should be a matter of just wiring up the wires and following a diagram

That may be good for the masses but I'm actually looking forward to building my kit. I gotta put this computer engineering degree I've been sitting on to good use.








Its funny, after Paul (Need_a_VR6) introduced me to MS many moons ago, I started remembering and finally seeing practical applications for all the stuff I learned in college....you don't get that deep into the hardware being a network admin which is one of the reasons I love MS so much! Hurry up and finish.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (darren p.)*

I dont actually offer "kits" its not really that profitable and the market is pretty saturated with guys like Glen and Jerry, Personally i'd suggest Jerry over glen, i've bought from both and Jerrys response time and service is very good.
The information on how to mod it yourself will also be up.. The kits i'm offering are for the masses and or shops who want to just buy something that they can install and not worry about, not so much the DIY Electronics/Computer enthusiast.. just guys who love their cars.
I completely understand about practical applications of knowledge







its what i'm all about.








I'm off to wire up this VR.. i'll have more pics up later


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Bump for the V3 pics http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DutchJetta (Jan 29, 2003)

Hi,
I had my 1.8 16V squirted.
Now I sparked an 1850 cc euro 16V, carbs, cams, head work etc. 
It screams out of the intake and the non damping exhaust. We got it to throw some nice 2 feet flames when shifting, but that's not what we want.
Any one have some suggestions for a timing map? Engine overrun is programmed to have 43 degrees of advance.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
I'm off to wire up this VR.. i'll have more pics up later

Better hurry up.. you have two weeks to beat me to it.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

ordered some extra parts from Digikey yesterday shoudl be here in the AM and thats all i'm waiting for.
a TIP122 Darlington transistor for the IDLE circuit and a 25watt aluminum heatsinked 7.5ohm resistor to drop the 12V down to 5V for the idle motor <it only pulls 1-1.2amps so this should suffice without getting too hot.
I picked up the cone filter tonight and will get a nice piece of 3" aluminum or stainless pipe tomorrow to mount the cone filter too..
Wiring is basically finished.. working on the writeup tonight


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*








I still can't find some local that has MS up and running in there car for me to check out. found some one 160 miles from me that running it.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_









What is that you're using to wrap the loom in, looks tidy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Its cool stuff! You can get it many places, but the application I know best is using it for PSU sleeving on overclocking/case modding. http://www.frozencpu.com has it in all the colors, espdecialy the UV reactive ones!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Buy stuff from Waytek, good prices and GREAT service. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Have to agree.. I'm lucky i've got a few local electronics shops that carry this stuff, I'm using the carbon look loom, it looks nicer than black especially when its visible and the wire colors show thru a little.
You will barely see any of the nice wiring work on this VR6 when i'm done with the motor cover installed.
Currently working on a full diagram of how its wired up with G1/G2 plugs etc i've trimmed out everything thats not needed and kept the stock fusebox connections where possible for things like injector power, the heated oxy, etc
I didnt end up using the round T42 plug on the side of the motor because the wiring is slightly different between the ODB1 and ODB2 blocks at that plug, and I decided i'd end up with cleaner wiring if i just removed it. Its only a handfull of plugs to remove to pull the engine, you will however have to remove the upper intake manifold to get some of them off but thats not that much work if you are already taking out a motor.


_Modified by CdnDub at 7:45 PM 1-17-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Yeah, I have to try out Waytec. I REALY need to get me one of their catalogs.
I am undecided on how to do my wiring on this car. I don't have the luxury of a working OBD-2 install in the car. So I will have to take care of the stuff like the FP relay anyways. The whole electrical system is also suspect, so I am definally not reusing any existing factory wiring from the 87.
I am debating between using the OBD-2 ECU case and installing it in the engine bay, or just instaling in the normal manner inside the car. Too many choices!


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I didnt end up using the round T42 plug on the side of the motor because the wiring is slightly different between the ODB1 and ODB2 blocks at that plug, and I decided i'd end up with cleaner wiring if i just removed it.

That was wise. I work on damn VW's all day long, and you have no idea how many cars came in with issues, and that damn plug was the culprit!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Wiring is basically finished.. working on the writeup tonight

Hey, that was six days, five hours and 47minutes ago....








I need my update fix!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Ok.. Update is.. I'm hoping it runs/drives today.
What held me up.
Nightmare of an install putting the stock wiring back into a fully stripped car. ( I didnt do this, two other shops did)
It was only a 1.8L CDN only golf CL with a 1.8L mono-motronic engine origionally.
no power windows etc
Things I found yesterday.
ABS Relays are NOT fuel pump relays.
The stock ECM relay is required for making the car run with motronic <no matter how many wires you jumper around it>
And i'm still







against the fusebox for the last few issues.
On the posative side I think i'm nearly done.
The stock fuel pump output from MS should be able to turn on the ECM relay, the Fuel pump relay and the Heated oxy relay all at the same time <i just need to put some diodes in there in the right place to stop the relays from turning each other on with the car off>.
The Trigger angles are sorted.
Tooth 16 is where the motor is at TDC.. So for a 60deg trigger angle you trigger on tooth
6 for the first trigger, 26 for the 2nd and 46 for the third. and for trigger return so you have 12DEGs during cranking you want Trig return A at tooth 14, Ret B at 34, and Ret C at 54.
This is what is programmed in. we'll see if it starts on the first crank later.



_Modified by CdnDub at 6:42 PM 1-22-2006_


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
Tooth 16 is where the motor is at TDC.. So for a 60deg trigger angle you trigger on tooth
6 for the first trigger, 26 for the 2nd and 46 for the third. and for trigger return so you have 12DEGs during cranking you want Trig return A at tooth 14, Ret B at 34, and Ret C at 54.
_Modified by CdnDub at 6:42 PM 1-22-2006_

Here's hoping that will work on the mk4 vr6 motor. I don't see why VW would change something like that on the block, eh?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

this block i think is a 97 ODB2 engine so it should be the same as any of the Mk4 VR6's
the ones i'm not sure about are the earlier ODB1.. but honestly if you try these trigger angles and have a timing gun, its likely VW only moved things by 2 teeth or so.. 12deg's.. you'd know pretty quick how far you were out.
Dave


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, what triggering setup did you decide on? Did you leave the coilpack alone? Did you just reproduce the high current ignition drivers?
I guess we have a little bit before we got verification they work, so I guess I gotta hold off on mine for a few more minutes


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Gonna go out and finish up the Relay wiring then solder up the DB37 plug and see if it fires up with the settings i've got.
I swapped out the LED Transistors with some higher Current ZTX450's <1amp rather than 200ma> The FIDLE i did with a 25watt 7.5ohm resistor and a TIP122 in place of Q4 <also 200mah upgraded now to like 5amps>
The resistor drops 13 or so volts down to about 5volts so i can run PWM an d have some resolution on the stock idle motor, we'll see if it works at all, if not an ISV or warmup valve is the easiest.
I'm not Using VB921's since i think the stock coilpack has the ignitors internally.. I did turn on Dwell control since i dont think it does that.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I just used 2n2222 equivalent transistors and 1k ohm emmiter resistor and it seems to work fine when they're attatched to the tops of the LED resistors. I'll post pics when I get better ones


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Cool, I am VERY curious to learn what works here. I actualy STOPPED building my last V3.0 tell we have a confirmation on this. I HATE pulling components off of the boards to swap stuff in. I have burned too many via holes cleaning them out.








Anyways, I have gotten back to working on sorting out the wiring on this bad boy! I am not even going to TRY and retain any of the OE VW stuff for the fuel injection. My first drive in this car picking her up ended half a milf from the guys house, and like 500 miles from mine... The fuep pump had crapped out due to bad connections! I have had assorted electrical malidies with the fuel system since fixing the first ones.








We gonna fix ALL that! And NO MORE CEL!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

got the wiring finished last night.. just have to confirm the polarity of the VR sensor and get a clean signal <Adjust the pots maybe> 
I cranked it over and had it hiccup, but it wasnt getting a consistent VR signal <coils werent flashing in sequence>
Tonight i'll scope it and make sure things are right.
Dave


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Are you using this setup for the coilpack:









That seems to work in my tabletop test with the stim and the coilpack (and spark plugs) hooked up.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

no.. i'm triggering right off the LED outputs.. i'm not sure why you'd need to add another 2n2222 transistor.. I just replaced the 200ma 3914's <i think thats the part> with some ZTX450's which handle 1amp <similar to a 2n2222>
maybe i'm missing something.. I'll find out tonight though.
Dave


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

That sounds good... I didn't think about replacing the existing transistors. Tell me how it works


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

ok.. i think inherited the project car from hell.
First issue, TPS appeared to be wired backwards, I tried all different pin combos for the ODB2 throttle body and couldnt get it to stay out of flood clear.. values would be between 190 and 220 and drop to 160 ish when open. I measured between the pins and got varying results depending which pins i chose. the ones that seem correct are Pins
4 - Power
5 - Ground
7 - Signal
I'm only getting about 1.2k when closed and 900ohms when open which isnt enough resolution.
I then realized that the combo between the ODB2 engine harness and engine and ODB1 car side harness with ODB1 ecu resulted in the pins being crossed between the TB's TPS and the ISV power wires on the ODB1 ECU, and the Throttle motor ended up hooked to the TPS input on the ODB1 ecu <makes sense if you trace the wires in the bentley>
I'm thinking the ISV power probably killed the TPS in the throttle body, if anyone could measure the values bewtween pins 4, 5, 7 for me and get back to me with it open/closed it would help a great deal, otherwise i'm off to find another throttle body to try.
Sio i disconnected the TPS and tried again <no flood clear and not needed to start the car>
I've got it cranking and catching.. using the ZTX450 transistors in place of the regular ones next to the LEDs.. spark output inverted, and dwell turned on.. It was however not catching fully and would kick back occasionally
I tried for maybe 45 seconds total of cranking, and the fuel pump had run for maybe 4-5minutes total.. some of the time I had a tach signal and the others not so much.. sorted that and had a solid tach signal, it would want to fire and kick back.. I figure ok motors probably not flooded if it was stuck in flood clear for a while and then not getting a tach signal.
So i tried reversing the signal wires from the crank position sensor <no signal period the other way around> so i went back and tried tweaking software settings.
Kickback got worse and no the starter wont even turn the motor. I started thinking maybe its flooding <odd consdering i still hadnt cranked it that much>
So i stop.. pull the dipstick, yay stinks of gas and the fresh oil i put in is not so fresh and more the consistency of gas.
I'm thinking now that an injector is stuck open and leaking with the pump running <or more than one> ECU definitely wasnt grounding the injector channels even if there was a wiring fault in the car that was causing ground problems at the ECU the injector grounds are controlled via the FETS and couldnt be accidentally turned on. <ECU works fine on the bench still>
Whats odd is I definitely tested each injector to make sure it "clicked" on and off, but i didnt bother pulling the rail with the pump energized to see if they were dripping or anything, i did check the diaphram on the FPR and its not leaking either and holds vacuum
I'm a little stumped but will keep on troubleshooting, and posting results. I think the config is close for the engine and i'm fighting other gremlins <like the TPS and maybe injectors>
If anyones got ideas i'd love to hear em.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_ok.. i think inherited the project car from hell. 

Dude, you got my car?!








I will get out to my car tomorrow about 1:30pm you time and snag those measurments, unless somebody else here is so kind as to get them and save me some gas! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Do you want any other measurments?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Just need the TPS.. and it has to be an ODB2 throttle body.. those figures arent in the Mk3 bentley for some odd reason, it lists all the other TPS figures from the ODB1 ecu but not the ODB2 cars
I'm figuring they are the same and thats likely why i'm having an issue.
The Fuel problem is a tricky one.. more oil, and pull the rail and see if the injectors leak with the pressure up.. Hoping its that simple.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Just need the TPS.. and it has to be an ODB2 throttle body.. 

Got that one for sure!







If nobody else steps up first, I will have it to you probally by 2pm your time or so!
I gots invested interest


----------



## shindul (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

hey guys I'm just running spark only. I cant seem to get the timing to advance. Anybody have a clue


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (shindul)*

how are you triggering the spark? Taking a signal from the distributor?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*TPS info*

Okay Dave, its too cold out to mess with this outside, so I yanked it off the car. I will grab the measurments in a few minutes and post them for you.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: TPS info (T3Bunny)*

closed
4+5= .713
4+7= .964
5+7= 1.404
This supposedly tells me that 
4= signal wire
7= +5v
5= ground
Since you did ask for both open and closed... Here is open for you!
open
4+5= 1.355
4+7= .964
5+7= .565
I got the testing procedure out of my TEC-2 manual and realy haven't found an easier test procedure anywhere... But this time it looks suspect... 

_Quote, originally posted by *Electromotive TEC-2 manual* »_To locate which wires to connect to the TEC II, measure the resistance beween the wires of the sensor. Find the two wires with the greatest resistance. The remaining wire attach to TPS signal. Measure the resistance now between this wire and the others. Attach the wire that gives the greatest resistance to +5v, and attach the wire with the least resistance to ground

The Bently Wiring diagram here agrees with your assesment though. Pins 1 and 2 are for the IAC motor. 3 and 7 are closed with the throtle closed, so 3 seems to be closed throttle signal. So this leaves up with weirdness going on with pin 8. It appears to be an inverse of the signal?
Lemme know if you want this Bently and I will toss it your way. Also let me know if you want me to test with pin 8 in the equation.


----------



## shindul (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Hey dave. Yes I'm taking the signal directly from the dist. through the ignition mod.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: TPS info (T3Bunny)*

Dave, I sent you this Bently diagram. It IS actualy agreeing with my first assesment. The weird **** may be this thing looks like the power signal is 12v... Frigging VW... 
The more I stare at this crap the more my head hurts... Okay I managed to snag a snapshot of this out of the PDF.










_Modified by T3Bunny at 12:29 AM 1-27-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (shindul)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shindul* »_Hey dave. Yes I'm taking the signal directly from the dist. through the ignition mod.

If your taking the signal DIRECTLY from the Hall sensor then, your on the right track. But if your taking if off the ignition module then you got it wrong somehow. PM me your email and I will toss you a writeup on it with pictures.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (shindul)*

thanks for the numbers.. looks like VW might have used a 12V signal for the TPS.. i'm so confused lol. But i can start a car and tune it with no TPS if needed so thats not a big deal
The numbers match my TPS info so we'll see if i can work with it.
Thanks dude.. much appreciated <and i do have that bentley diagram was staring at it earlier>


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

WTF!? Okay VW is on crack. If you look at the wiring diagrams DRUNK the make more sense...
















Anyways. point 260 and 139 ARE grounds. This means that
7= ground
I am going to guess that this means
4= regulated power out to TPS. 
8 and/or 5 are the signals out. It seems that one signal increases and the other decreases. I am thinking our tests failed because of this werid interloping crap. But why would they have TWO power feed inputs and only one signal out? I van see reasons for the other way... perhaps.


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_.. i'm so confused lol.
 
You and me both. I am updating the diagram I posted above since its missing some of the info. I thought I may have tossed these diagrams your way before, but I didn't remember.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I think VW did use a signal that decreases and increases.
I give up for the night.. way too much on the go, sick pets <cancer> and a busy work schedule.. I'll give this car more attention tomorrow night and over the weekend.
What i found tonight
Pulled the upper intake <dripping with gas> pulled the rail and powered the pump, no leaky injectors totally dry.. hooked up the ECU and turned the key.. no leaky injectors either <means my grounds are ok and things are hooked up right>.. sprays when cranking.
Tried cranking the engine after leaving it overnight.. It cranked a little then stopped hard.. i figure ok somethings not so happy.. so i pull the spark plugs and they are gas covered and completely black and carboned... the previous ODB1 ECU on ODB2 motor with ODB2 engine harness obviously ran way too rich.. but i knew that from the 9liters of oil/gas in the pan
My guess apparently MS was spraying enough fuel during my cranking attempts i just wasnt getting any spark because of the dead plugs or a combo of the dead plugs and maybe slightly off spark settings.
I'll drain the pan, new oil, crank it to get some pressure up without the plugs.. pop new plugs in and give it a go again.
not sure if anyone knows anything about plug selection for a VR6 but it had NGK BKR5EGP 's in there they look like a platinum plug but i'll check the NGK site.
I prefer good ol coppers myself.. and change them often..
Next step is to also hook the TPS wires to regulated 5V and see what i get when measuring the signal pins, i think one wire will climb from 0-4 or 5 volts and the other will start at 4.x and roll down to 0 or 1 volt like you mention.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

The OBD-2 has some sort of spark "feedback" deal. I suspect it has some way of ION-sensing the ignition perhaps? Whatever the case, it can tell you down to a specific, SINGLE cylinder where the problem lies. From the factory these come with a funky two prong, single electrode that I think was platinum. The stock plugs are NGK, but right now I am unsure the number. Mine had the VW logo on them.
I am hoping for a wheather break this weekend. If so, I may go ahead and try getting my harness all hooked up! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## shindul (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

thanks I goofed. On my spark setting -10 = map well I was on -4 so thats why I did'nt have any advance. I reset the dizzy correctly went back to -10 and all is well. Anybody have any good turbo ignition maps. Mine is very safe at this point. i need something to compare to.Thanks for the help


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (shindul)*

Toss out some more detailed info on your motor. Likely somebody has something here, but as far as we know right now, you got a V8 stuffed into there!








Tell us goodies like 8v/16v/20v/?v, compression, cam type, turbo type... ETC etc.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

the ODB2 motors do per cylinder trim of spark and fuel apparently.. but they just use two knock sensors at opposite corners of the motor on a VR6 to figure out where the sound <knock> comes from.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: TPS info (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_










Dave hook it up so that there's +5v on pin 7, ground on pin 4, and signal on pin 5 or 8. From the diagram it doesn't look like they're wired in reverse, but it could very well be the case. Pretty sure VW does use a 12v tps though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## shindul (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

got a 2.0 8 valve 8.3 to 1 compression turbocharged with 12lbs of boost


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (shindul)*

Hey Paul..
I've tried it wired like that, and even tried swapipng the ground and power pins to see if that helped the signal.
I have little to no resolution with it hooked up like you suggest with either pin 5 or 8.. I'm going to hook the TPS up to a 5Vdc power supply and measure the resulting voltage output on the signal pins with a multimeter.
I'm not convinced that at least one track of these TPS isnt cooked and it may be the one i need <inverted Vs non-inverted>
I think i've got the wiring all correct its just a matter of sorting out the bugs. I'm going to scope the 60-2 signal as well and see whats up there.
Paul you also mentioned benchtesting a coil, I'm trying to recall but you were saying it fired on ground or +5V? trying to figure out wether i need inverted or non inverted coil outputs.. And i think i need dwell enabled.
Dave


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (shindul)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shindul* »_got a 2.0 8 valve 8.3 to 1 compression turbocharged with 12lbs of boost

What kind of turbo?


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Let me ask everyone a question here -- I know that some people do sensor sharing to retain their stock ECU... I'm trying to figure out a way to do this, but usually it means chaing the bias resistor so that it doesn't muck with the signal (as it will be connected to two ECU's, megasquirt and motronic).
Do you think it would be possible just to use a non-inverting buffer to isolate the signal for the megasquirt? Obviously it would mean a little more wiring and mounting, but that could be implemented on the MS board. I don't know if a buffer would skew the signal off the G28 sensor (VR sensor used with 60-2 wheel), what do you guys think?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

I think the Buffer would mess with the AC signal from the VR sensor.
For sharing other sensors i believe you have to remove the BIAS resistors on the MS side and use the values from the Motronic ECU to recalc the temp tables in software on the MS ECU


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

With the stock amp it fired on grounding the pins, but I remember that someone else had it fire with +5v which I found strange. I'm thinking that 5v might be low level enough to fire it considering it's comparing it to 12v on the amp, not 5v on the power side. So either could work, in theory.
You DEFINITELY need dwell control on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

how can I effectively share the g28 engine speed sensor with motronic and Megasquirt? Any ideas? I'm of the mind that simply splicing into it probably won't work. I'll have to review the schematic to see -- I'm not sure if there's a biasing resistor or anything.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (majic)*

VR sensors are hard to share based on the nature of the sensor itself. Anything that loads it down can effect the amplitude of the output and cause problems. An easier thing might be to make a custom cam trigger wheel to go to the MS off of the front cam gear to a hall type sensor.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: TPS info (need_a_VR6)*

Paul, pin 7 is definatly a ground per that diagram. Follow back to point 260 and point 139. Now wether or not we can't USE it as a power feed I don't know...
If it wern't for the idle motor in this beotch, I think I would call it a day or toss an OBD-1 TB onto it. But thats the easy way out. I never seem to take that route....


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: TPS info (T3Bunny)*

I'm sure you'll get it sorted shortly Dave. I wish I good be of more help. I was going to answer your question about the signal being pulled to ground to trigger and dwell needing to be on but Paul beat me too it. I hate to swing from peoples nuts but you guys are really stepping up here. Keep up the good work.








Paul, I can't believe you got rid of your mkII...end of an era!








At least it will be easier to claim fastest all motor 12v street car this season.. with no competition anymore and all.








Whats up Jamie, been a while.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: TPS info (darren p.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darren p.* »_Whats up Jamie, been a while.

Lol, not much... Winter and no garage this season has KILLED my desire to work on my cars. So instead I am busy bugging Dave to finish his VR6 install up! I think I can find the motivation for a few hours of harness installation...








I got tired of slow laptops and decided to build my own here! Actualy posting from it right now!


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

About the OBDII throttle bodies: I have a bunch of Audi 2.8 throttle bodies and I dissasembled one last summer to see if I can get a good resistance sweep for the TPS. I cut a trace to separate the 2 variable resistors. I suspect the board might be the same as the VW throttle body and might apply as well. I don't have this on the car and running but it looked good on my meter when I did it. Please forgive my crappy camera.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

If you would be so kind as to explain your thoughts on pin 5 and 8 some more?
If I read you correctly, the black lines are where you cut the trace. Before this I take it that both 5 and 8 were inverse? One increasing in voltage while the other decreeses? Noe does this pin 5 become an "out of range" signal only after cutting the trace?
You used the term "idle motor position range" on pin 8... I am taking this to be the TPS signal also? 
I know I am splitting hairs here.... I am just confused as hell as to how VW intended it to work. It would be NICE to hack it externaly without modifying the TPS internaly, but thats not looking hopefull. Whatever the case, I just want to un=derstand WHAT VW orignially was up to with this whackieness.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

Also, can you verify what the idle motor runs on? Dave is thinking its 5v, but if that TPS was wired incorrectly.... I think its pretty WEIRD for them to run that on 5v, but we are discussing German electronics!


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Sorry for the confusion. I cut the trace to get a true linear sweep. The voltages on a stock one were not linear and went up and down throughout the full stroke. Pin #8 is what the stock ECU uses to "know" where the idle motor's position is. Pin #5 is the full TPS sweep of the throttle body (0-X Volts). 
It's hard to see in the pics but the idle motor position and the butterfly posistion are semi independant and have their own variable resistor. You can move the throttle and the idle circuit doesn't move. But if you move the idle circuit the throttle moves with it.


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I don't know what the idle motor uses for voltage... I suspect pulsed 12V though. I don't think that 5V would have enough power to move the butterfly fast enough.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (GeoffVR6)*

it operates at 5Volts.. though it may be pulsed.. I tried to get a video of this with a variable power supply <Variable current and voltage>
If supplied with say 2volts and 500ma it will open approx half way, at 1amp and 5volts its fully open.. pressing with a finger on the plate didnt move it yet the motor doesnt appear to be a stepper.
the sweep was very linear with the 5V signal.. if the signal is inverted it closes the throttle from its resting position.. and has the same sweep but with less resolution from starting to about 99% closed. i'm guessing starting is about 5% open, with the idle motor at full +5V its open approx 12-15%
i'd have more accurate numbers if i could get the TPS to work properly lol.
cutting a trace may be easisest


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, get some purty pics PLEASE if you do take it apart and cut traces!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*WTF!?*

Okay this post had me seeing RED! I tried to choose my response carefully, but please forgive me if I offend anyone here. To make matters worse, my new PC crashed halfway through the first attempt due to an overheated CPU.








 Fire and fuel?? Theft of product or authorized use?
The best part, Mr. ZZZ240V8 supplied a bogous (or non-working)email address to MSEFI. Now why would somebody do that...











_Modified by T3Bunny at 4:17 AM 1-28-2006_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

thanks James..
I rarely have time to read or post on those forums these days but have promsied to do an SR20DET writeup for guys there and will do a full VR6 ODB2 writeup.. Both will likely be posted on our site with links posted in the forums with pics and information once i know what works and what doesnt.
You were mostly right about the VW thing, I was part of the origional group buy AFAIK, and had the FIRST MegasquirtNSparked VW running with that code, the first to run ignition, there are others before me like Wing who's turbo'd VW left us with the Wing Diode on the V2 boards.
I've been doing this for the last 4 years nearly.. and running it as a business for about a year and a half. I give away as much info as I can back to the community while still allowing me to making enough money to continue the business. 
That post gives me the motivation to get that VR running today.. period.
Dave http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

No problem man! I gots to defend the VW honor! Besides, I did toss a disclaimer out with all that.
They not only locked the thread, but they even changed the name!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

haha.. i'm not surprised.. i'm friends with Lance, I know Bruce/Al fairly well and Eric and I have chatted on many occasions.. If they are oldskool MS I've probably talked to them at least twice


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Well.. Despite a valiant effort and many hours without sleep its only managed to run for about 10seconds at a time and not very consistantly.
The ECU is getting garbage on the power lines <+12V on the ground line to the fuel pump signal when the ignition is off> and i can only infer that theres noise when its on. If the ECU's connected with the power off it shorts the injectors full open and runs the pump <not good for trying to start a motor>..
THe last thing i tried today was pulling the two Harness connectors for the gauge cluster, and lo and behold the problem dissapeared I can now turn off the car and the pump shuts off and the injectors stay closed.
I guess there are more wiring gremlins than i'd have hoped for in this thing, next step will be to pull the gauge cluster i think and see whats going on.. 
The basic problem i think <i may be running in circles by now though> is that Track 15 seems to end up grounded instead of no connection with the ignition switch set to off.. This may be a symptom of another issue but it strikes me as odd.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Did you try firing it up with the cluster unplugged?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

Yeah still no dice, but then i'd reversed the Signal wires for the VR sensor to see if that would help too, so I'll move them back tomorrow and see what happens.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Cool, lemme know when you got her fired and stable spark outputs! Then I will go ahead and finish building my v3.0 at least.. Gotta pretend to make some progress on mine. The wife is wanting her car done sometime soon


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

Dave, good luck with things, sounds like the car you got to start with might not have been the best of canidates! I'm just getting this VR6 Jetta done mechanically to move on to MS, so I'll be right there behind you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Darren, it'll be sad to see it go, but before it does it's getting a full 92 SLC drivetrain like it had back in the day. The only thing sneaky about it will be the MS ecu lurking behind the dashboard







I think he's eventually going to turbo it as well. Should be interesting. 
Earlier, I was saying to hook pin 7 to ground because all it looks like it's going to is the idle switch and the TPS potentiometers. Swapping power and ground there would invert the sweep of the signal. 
Honestly I'm going to try and figure out a way to NOT cut the current traces in the TB, I want to be able to swap this car back to a stock type ECU setup to do some dynos.







Though call F IT on the TB and doing a Mustang one is sounding better and better!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_







Though call F IT on the TB and doing a Mustang one is sounding better and better!

Is that a bolt on? If so... I just don't want to make any non-reversable mods to this!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

Almost 100% sure the Fox body Mustang TB bolts right onto a OBD2 VR6 intake manifold.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm in the process of doing some VR6 craziness... I'll post some pics when I get to a good point. I've got my charger broken down and I'm trying to pull the bearings and the impeller right now


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_... Fox body Mustang TB ...

Dumb it down! I know next to NOTHING about 'merican cars! What year range are we talking about? About all I know about mustangs is my old boss has a bunch, and they make some NICE fuel injectors for my Bunny!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

Ok.. just found a glimmer of hope from the customer who's vR it is
His gas gauge doesnt work, nor do a lot of the other Cluster functions <backlights work but thats about it so far, though i havnt tried spinning the sensor on the tranny for the speedo>.
What i found out today.. The cluster was swapped, its got a tach, and looks late model, maybe even odb2.. i'll get a pic, its also got a custom fascia installed so it was hard to know if it was new or old, but it has a tach, he origionally had a clock.
Does anyone know what changed over the years with these things and how to identify them, are they plug/play or did the pinouts change?
Dave


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Dave, I have pretty much all the wiring diagrams for the A3 golf. Lemme know what ones you might be interested in and I can toss them your way!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (T3Bunny)*

I've got a mk3 bentley at home.. and another one at a friends lol.. I'm good for diagrams, i'll check the bentley myself But i'm curious if anyone knew if the clusters changed significantly over the years.. 
I mean its blatently obvious to me now that the cluster must have changed given his car origionally had a mechanical speedo.. its just too many details at once kinda thing


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Ok.. I win.. I beat the Mk3 into submission.. Its still got some issues and I had to jumper around the ECM relay to make this happen.. But thats besides the point..
Ladies and Gents.. <mostly gents i'm sure>
The worlds first ODB2 <1998> VR6 with all stock sensors and Coilpacks to Run on MS
http://www.fireandfuel.ca/albu...7.mov
I think i need a















oh and its a 10megabyte quicktime movie.. the motor runs for approx 30seconds










_Modified by CdnDub at 6:58 AM 1-31-2006_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Good stuff Dave, congrats!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
What's the word on the TPS and ISV though? I just remembered something about a swap I once worked on. The ECM power relay somehow gets it's coil latched through the stock ecu. Like it only sends power to it for a few seconds and if it doesn't get a signal back it'll break contact. Either that or it was really late at night when I was troubleshooting that car







Could be. Anyway take a look at the schematics for the ECU relay just to humor me.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (need_a_VR6)*

Havnt gotten as far as the TPS and motor.. motor should work i think, i've got it wired for PWM, and have a 7.5ohm 25watt resistor inline to pull the 12V supply line down to 5V so i have enough resolution at the motor for fine control with the pwm stuff.
Thats an interesting observation on the ECM relay.. What do you mean about break contact, Its a 3pin relay for the ECM.. do you mean the signal side or the power side.
The ECM relay, HS02 relay and Fuel pump relay all have seperate grounds running into the stock Motronic Brain. I tried to be tricky. I added a relay, that gets turned on with switched 12V.. it connects the ECM relay to ground when its powered.
The HSO2 <heated oxy> and the fuel pump relays have their grounds connected together and T'd to the Fuel pump ground at the MS ECU.
I'm thinking my own relay madness may be to blame at this point.
which may be part of the issue.. If these were 4 pin i may not be having trouble with some of this voltage backfeeding.
I need to look at my own relay schemes again to make sure what i'm doing is even possible.
The other option is to jumper around the relays or remove them and put my own in place.. 
ITs only powering the injectors and the IDle motor anyways, since theres no MAF etc.. and i guess it also powers the relay for the heated 02 


_Modified by CdnDub at 7:32 PM 1-31-2006_


----------



## t3bunnysbabe (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_
Ladies and Gents.. <mostly gents i'm sure>
The worlds first ODB2 <1998> VR6 with all stock sensors and Coilpacks to Run on MS
_Modified by CdnDub at 6:58 AM 1-31-2006_


Here's a lady here...I will now give you much womanly love for your car!
I've been waiting forEVER for this day! Yay! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (t3bunnysbabe)*

Paul.. 
I have a sneaking suspicion my issues may be the protection diodes.. inside the relays, they only let current flow one direciton which may be why i'm seeing the 12V plane get grounded with the power off.. Im thinking i need to seperate all the grounds for the 3 relays.. maybe add 3 transistors that get triggered by the fuel pump output from MS that turn on those 3 relays seperately?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*








No place is safe from her!








Dave, perhaps I am missing something here... This car is a framkenstein and a piss poor canidate for the "lets keep it stock" routine. Why bother?
I would forget the factory stuff compleatly and wire in new relays for the MS. Cut the FP wire going back on the drivers side and wire it up. It doesn't seem there is a need to keep any of the old wiring or factory ECU. If the car has ABS, thats a whole differant and independant system.


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_The worlds first ODB2 <1998> VR6 with all stock sensors and Coilpacks to Run on MS
I think i need a
















Awesome man! Congrats...I'd send you a 12 pack but you probably don't like any of the piss we consider beer here in the states.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (darren p.)*

Haha.. I think i found my own problem tonight.. My 4pack of relays that I've got wired up to try to save the stock stuff needs a good sorting. 2 relays are 4pin, and 2 are 3pin..
I'll see if i can make up a diagram to post







showing what i'm sure i did wrong at this point. I could really use a full copy of the bentley in PDF format <the mk3 one> to suppliment my paper copies, it would be nice to print off some of the wiring pages so i could write all over them.
If i wasnt leaving to go to a wedding on thurs night i'd probably have the car home with the owner this weekend.. 
I'll have a good Canadian, English or German beer







let me know if you want some down there







. Newcastle Brown is my current fave, that or a nice cold Warsteiner from germany.
Id love to give up on the stock fuses/relays for this but i'm too stubborn, even on a frankenswap, I've got the right relays for the car, I just need to sort out how to power them and in what sequence.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

Dave, I'm not sure what I'm talking about, honestly. I was working on the said car about 2am trying to get it to run for a customer. If someone has scans or could post clips of the ECM wiring diagrams that show the ECU relay I could try and explain. I think all the hokey stuff is on the ground side of the coil to switch it on. Unfortunately my personal Bentley only goes up to 96 and I think some of this wiring changed after that. 
That all being said, I left everything as stock when I wired Mendra's 2L OBD2 setup up using the stock ECM relay and fuel pump relay. I can't see the relays/wiring on that setup and yours being much different. I might have made some scribbles in his Bentley or on his wiring diagrams. Might want to hit him up for some scans of that.
The surge protection diodes just help with transients, and keep current in check. Shouldn't effect operation of the relays at all.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: WTF!? (need_a_VR6)*

Thanks Paul..
I have a feeling its something i've done, maybe to try to compensate for a short somewhere else in the system which i'd put down to my relay wiring at first. now the other issue was potentially found maybe i've created another problem








Drawing my way through it now. 
Whats interesting.. A 97 and later OBD2 car doesnt seem to have an ECM relay at least not in the bentley on the pages for the Motronic ECU.. it still has a fuel pump relay, but the heated oxy and injectors run right off the fusebox and main power.


_Modified by CdnDub at 3:29 PM 2-1-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I could really use a full copy of the bentley in PDF format <the mk3 one> to suppliment my paper copies, it would be nice to print off some of the wiring pages so i could write all over them.

I will email them to you! I only have the wiring diagrams though... But I have ALL the wiring diagrams for the A3 golfs. Right off the Bently site! Better yet if you have Yahoo Messanger give me a shout! The zipped folder is 43mb. It would be easiest for me to transfer it that way.



_Modified by T3Bunny at 3:38 PM 2-5-2006_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: WTF!? (CdnDub)*

I know it still has an ECM relay in the fuseblock, but what it might do has me baffled! Strange stuff. 
T3, any good way to get me those files, no messenger.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: WTF!? (need_a_VR6)*

very weird, i also looked in bentley and the wiring diagrams online and could not find an ECM relay.


----------



## ijcameron (May 17, 2001)

*Re: WTF!? (bonesaw)*

Guys, I'm looking at a new Megasquirt project: a 1997 ABA.
I'd like to know:
1. How does the ABA control idle - I'm thinking PWM - does that sound right?
2. Is the TPS your basic 3 wire set up, or something more complicated?
The rest I can handle!
Thanks
IC


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Apparently my pics of the V3 board mods are missing so i'll take more next time i do one.. For now heres a written description of what to do.. and a pic of the V2.2 mod that ends up wired the same way at the harness.. <Pin 24 is Power for the hall +5V> and pin 25 is hall signal
V3 info
TACHSELECT is jumpered to OPTOIN
Next run a Jumper wire from the +5V pad above the proto area and solder it to the jumper you just installed between those two 
That gives you +5V to power Tach/Opto Circuit hall like in the past by running the jumper like in MidnightGLi's diagram
You will be powering the Hall from this output also known as the Tach Pin on the wiring diagram
Jumper XG1 to X11 <aka IAC-1A on the V3's labels> This will get used for the Opto Signal from the dizzy. Run the middle wire from your dizzy to this input.. also known as pin 25
jumper TSEL to Opto-out
And you should be finished

The reason you wire it this way even on the V3's is that you need to invert the signal from the hall otherwise you will trigger when the window is in the wrong place and wont have a nice solid 60deg trigger window.
And as promised heres a photo of a modified V2.2









_Modified by CdnDub at 6:38 PM 11-6-2005_


Hey guys, I was wondering if this write up was intended for use of the onboard ignition driver ? Thanks
-Chris


----------



## AllCityDubs (Jan 5, 2004)

has anyone successfully got megasquirt v3.0 running on a OBD1 aba using the stock 60-1 wheel and factory VR sensor?? If so, does anyone have a diagram kicking around they could post up? Thanks!


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (SweetSixteen)*

That one is kinda boring







I can't recall anyone doing it yet. I know that there was one person who used the hall type setup on an OBD-1 VR6. They had to make 5 more windows in the dizzy though. 
Seriously though, this should not be too difficult to do. I don't thing the factory is actualy running a 60-2 wheel on that though. First you need to physically verify the wheel. Wiring is straightforward as per the MS instructions. Its the configuration setup thats going to be a little more thought invilved.
SO... I am sitting out in Seattle Washington right now kinda bored. Patatron has this OBD-2 VR Bunny here... He also has a V3.0 ECU sitting around. I think Blue needs a MS!








I would too, but she is to be our transportation for the next week while we perform mayhem on Tan Bunny! Oh well, I will be able satisfy this months MS fix by squirting the Tan Bunny!


----------



## AllCityDubs (Jan 5, 2004)

What about v3.0 using the hall setup?? This is for a ABA16vT so I can use the dizzy in the head if that would be easier. I already swapped out the aba dizzy / oil pump etc for 9A stuff so using the 16v dizzy would be no problem. I see all of this info on using the ignition control module etc with version 2.2 but I dont see any info on setting up v3.0. Do I just wire it up as per the megamanual or is there a better way?? Sorry for the newb questions, this is my first time attempting to setup a SEM... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (SweetSixteen)*

using the 16v dizzy is an excellent idea cause it is a 4 window dizzy. as of now i dont think anyone has wired this setup to a 3.0. I dont see why you couldnt just use the ignition driver on the 3.0 board and not use the module.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (SweetSixteen)*

Dave has setup a V3.0 on a hall. Go back a page or three and I reposted the information. 
The setup above requires an inverted hall signal. This means modding the V3.0, and I don't see much point. I am going to try and fire up a car in the next week or so on a stock V3.0 without modding it.


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_Apparently my pics of the V3 board mods are missing so i'll take more next time i do one.. For now heres a written description of what to do.. and a pic of the V2.2 mod that ends up wired the same way at the harness.. <Pin 24 is Power for the hall +5V> and pin 25 is hall signal
V3 info
TACHSELECT is jumpered to OPTOIN
Next run a Jumper wire from the +5V pad above the proto area and solder it to the jumper you just installed between those two 
That gives you +5V to power Tach/Opto Circuit hall like in the past by running the jumper like in MidnightGLi's diagram
You will be powering the Hall from this output also known as the Tach Pin on the wiring diagram
Jumper XG1 to X11 <aka IAC-1A on the V3's labels> This will get used for the Opto Signal from the dizzy. Run the middle wire from your dizzy to this input.. also known as pin 25
jumper TSEL to Opto-out
And you should be finished

The reason you wire it this way even on the V3's is that you need to invert the signal from the hall otherwise you will trigger when the window is in the wrong place and wont have a nice solid 60deg trigger window.
And as promised heres a photo of a modified V2.2









_Modified by CdnDub at 6:38 PM 11-6-2005_


Alright guys I just moded my v3 board for spark going off of Dave's write-up. I would like Dave to confirm the setup if possible. Here it goes.
- TACHSELECT was already jumperd to OPTOIN
- After that I ran a jumper wire from the previous jumper over to the +5v pad above the proto area.
- Next was to run a jumper wire from XG1 to IAC-1A. When I went to do this step XG1 was jumperd to XG2. I assume I was supposed to cut the jumper between XG1 and XG2 so I did for now. After that I continued to run the jumper wire from IAC-1A to XG1. 
- TSEL was already jumperd to OPTOOUT
- IGBTIN was already jumperd to JS10 (ign)
- IGBTOUT was already jumperd to IGN
The write-up was pretty straight forward but it was lacking a few details. This is why im having the install confirmed. I also took pictures for you guys to check out. If there is anything I did wrong please fill me in so I can fix it. 
EDIT.. Also, Im wondering why spark is going out on pin #30 ? The ms site says it should come out of pin #36.


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (Captain16vGTI)*

Confirmation of that would be great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I cant wait to get my V3's in the mail


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (GTIMan82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIMan82* »_Confirmation of that would be great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Confirmation of that is Dave posted it. Thats all the confirmation you need. Dave has been doing this from the beginning. All of his information is from personal experiance with actual installs.


_Modified by T3Bunny at 4:41 PM 2-10-2006_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Hahaha.. Thanks james







i needed a good laugh on a friday afternoon.
The pics above look good for the inverted VW hall trigger stuff which is what i've used on V3's and V2's to this point.
The only difference is you are right, pin 30 can be left as FIDLE and you can use the IGN out pin from the Ignition driver as the spark output.. 
and the XG1/XG2 jumper does need to be removed like you mention..

Just a quick update on the VR6 as well, its making my life hell, i had it running again last night, i think i'll need some diodes inline with the fuel pump ground to turn on the HS02 relay, the ECM relay and the fuel pump relay without having them turn each other on after power off <and the injectors oddly>..
My next issue is the starter seems to stay engaged even after the motor starts <resulting in terrible grinding noises>, this makes me think it disengages and then re-engages once started its weird it doesnt do it for about 2-3seconds after releasing the ignition key after its running then turns on again, this car is sooo hacked on the wiring from the factory <no alarm module and its jumpered around> etc that i'm not sure whats up.. Starting to wonder if its got the wrong load reduction relay and or maybe the ignition switch is dead..


_Modified by CdnDub at 4:47 AM 2-11-2006_


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (T3Bunny)*

Thank you very much for getting back to me Dave. I wasn't asking for a conformation on the stuff you wrote up but instead for the mods I did. I just wanted to make sure I did everything that you had suggested. Thanks again.
-Chris


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Dave.... Look into your cranking settings. It sounds like you got some weirdness happening there with a double pulse setting. If prime is set for twice, change it to "power up only" and see if that does something. Its sounding like some weird feedback is happening. Almost like the starter is being somehow activated by the ECU main relay. At this point unless there is a NEED to keep the stock stuff I would just compleatly bypass all of that. 
Well if all goes to plan, ther will be another MSed car by the end of the day! Patatron and I are hacking away at his latest bout of insanity. The MegaSquirt is the only big thing left to do for this phaze of the project. Rear suspension is all done and the wheels tuck NICELY.








Project Slow and Low


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Dave, there's definitely something up with that wiring. There's just not that much that I needed to do on the OBD2 setup. I think the only thing from the MS to the fuseblock was the one wire to turn on the fuel pump. Depending on where you're at and how you went about the wiring it might be VERY benificial to put in a stock ECU and get that working first. Also the only jumper needed to bypass the alarm module is from a red to a red black that comes from the main engine harness, and will poke through the firewall. I documented it well in pg10 of the Mk2 VR6 FAQ. No other splicing needed for that. 
Also just FYI there's a thread on MSEFI in the wiring/sensors forum with a guy looking for guidance on getting a Digi3 car running on the stock VR. Thought you might be able to add some insight.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (need_a_VR6)*

Thanks for the ideas guys.. 
I decided last night that i'm going to toss out the stock ECM relay, and HS02 relay stuff and just wire the heated 02 to switched/fused 12V <it doesnt need a relay to function and the later OBD2 cars didnt use one>
the fuel pump relay will be triggered via MS, but i'll either add my own relay to turn on the power to the ECU, injectors, coil etc all from the same source or find a cleaner common signal.
When i stopped to think about things more I'm trying to make the stock stuff function with MS but it was never designed for such a simple ECU with only 1 ground output.
and the golden rule for MS is that the injector power should be taken from the same source as the ECU 12V power to avoid strange issues like this.
right now the MS ECU and the coil run off the factory unfused switched 12V for the coil, the injectors, HS02 relay and the Idle motor power come from the ECM relay.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: those who have used megasquirt'n'spark please post here (CdnDub)*

Quick update.
VR6 ran under its own power without me touching the gas pedal yesterday, and without the starter cranking, all the gauges work now as well except the tach, the early 93 gauge cluster harness is missing the Tach Trigger wire.
Talk about confusing the Bentley doesnt list the Tach signal at all, the only one i can figure it is is T28 pin 26 which is listed as vehicle fuel consumption in the bentley. If i'm wrong someone please jump in.
The car origionally had a large clock in place of a tach so it would make sense its missing the wire.
I'm still getting an Iffy VR signal and i'm not sure if its the ECU side or the VR sensor itself, i'll be scoping it tonight to see. My timing is dead on about 50% of the time at idle, at 20deg's which is what i set the ECU to as a fixed angle to get it running. This seems to jump around a fair bit which leads me to believe its not getting a nice solid rpm signal or its seeing dropouts on the line or noise. The base values seem right and I'm triggering the coil ignitiors using the ZTX450 transistors directly with dwell enabled, no problem with overheating them so far.
I've heard the Crank position sensors often fail on the VR's but that may be rumor.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
When it does catch during cranking and gets a signal it springs to life and revs cleanly to about 2000rpm, then drops down and gets choppy, 
I do recall that when i measured the VR wires <red/green/black> red/green had about 650ohms of resistance which i think is normal, but either red or green also had like 2-3megaohms resistance with black and from what i can tell black should just be sheild and no connection to the sensor at all.


_Modified by CdnDub at 5:56 PM 2-13-2006_


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

How should the vr sensor be wired up on MS? Should the red and green wires be fed into the MS, because I thought the black wire was for grounded shielding (according to what the bently looks like).


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

yeah normally you will pull one wire as the signal and wire it to the VRin on pin 24.. the other wire gets grounded along with the sheild wire.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

You will pull one wire, but which one? or does it not matter?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (majic)*

I think either will work, there are people running 'extra' tooth triggers with a VR sensor and that works ok. The signal would be the same as getting the VR - and a missing tooth.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

It actually does seem to matter.. I couldnt believe polarity on an AC signal was an issue but it does seem to affect things.
One way i get trigger events.. the other way i get nothing.
I also figured out last night that i'm not triggering the coils properly, they seem to fire when grounded with very little amperage required <5ma on the multimeter> and it appears VW continued the Dwell control right at the coilpack and not in the ECM..
Making some board mods tonight but the VR does fire up and run consistently right now, it just misfires and wont rev.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

So does that mean that our setup using the switching transistors and triggering off that with +5v isn't the appropriate setup?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (majic)*

Dave, interesting that it matters.. I can see that being true if you're grounding the VR- signal and just using VR+ at the ECU and not using a direct comparison. 
I thought the stock amp fired when grounded before, you do have a +12v and a good ground to the outer two pins of the pack right?
Also, ALL of the Motronic cars (starting with the CIS-E Motronic in the 2L) all had dwell control at the ECU not the coil. Even the 2L cars and early distro VR6's are like that. If you turn dwell off on those cars, it blows the coils.







Can't see that the coil VR6's being different. What are your dwell settings, 1.5ms-2 running should be plenty given the coil impedance.


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 7:39 AM 2-15-2006_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Yeah I'm changing my circuit this morning
I measured the voltage between the Signal/Trigger wires at the coilpack and ground and see 11.99 volts with the ignition key on.. same as batt voltage.
Resistance between trigger and ground is about 10megaohms, and resistance between trigger and battery + is 500ohms
The reason i didnt think they needed dwell is because as soon as you touch the trigger to ground the coil fires, it doesnt have to be lifted to fire.
My previous setup was using a 5volt/ground trigger and i think 5volts is not enough to overcome noise and was likely triggering the coils as well.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

OK.. she runs







and pulls to 6k pretty nicely.. goddamn does a VR with a cone filter sound mean.. 
Heres a link to the MSEFI thread where i worked thru the last of the troubleshooting, an MSQ from the running setup is posted
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=102070#102070
Paul i'd love to hear your comments/ideas on the electronics mods and how i ended up triggering in the end. Does my conclusion of the dwell calc being done when the coil goes high then low make sense? so it stays low until you want to fire, then gets a 12V signal the coil starts charging and fires when you go low next?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Paul one last question.. I know you got Mendra's tach working on his Mk3, what pin is it at the cluster for the TAcho input?
the bentley only lists fuel consumption on pin 26 i think the wire i thought it was turned out to be Speedo sensor output <pin 10 i think>.. 
Should be driving this puppy in no time.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, glad to hear it's all working! I spliced Mendra's tach at the main ECU connector and it was a green/black from what I remember. At the fuse end it *should* be fuse block connector G1 , terminal 12, Green/Black, should be terminal #10 on the cluster (can't remember which connector though) as the VR6's have two I think.
I'll check out the thread in a bit, and post up my comments on the electronics parts. I just got a few teeth pulled on Tues and the pain meds make me a bit fuzzy. Probably not the best time to make sense of that!


----------



## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

great thread


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (arvcube)*

Paul G1-12 and pin 10 is what i thought, but the bentley says thats a Vehicle speed sensor output wire. and it appears to have cooked a 2n2222 transistor and maybe even a CPU when i wired it up to that pin.
The only other wire is a "fuel consumption" that goes from the gauge cluster right to the Motronic ECM in the bentley its lilac i think but i'll double check.. definitely pin 26 on T28 at the gauge cluster.
If you track G1-12 back to the fuse block it gets really unclear about what connects to it, it could be Vehicle speed since the other connectors that would hook in are for things that "could" use that signal over things that would be looking for a tach signal.
Talk about confusing. 
Its coming though.. TPS and idle motor next then i'll tackle the tach


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Dave, little confusion here.... Are you saying that we DO NOT need to change the stock transistors in the V3.0 ECU? 
Perhaps my head is still foggy from jet-lag. Buit following the mods you made here and in the MSEFI post is a little confuzzaling!








If you can find time to clarify your final setup thoughts for the ignition... and possibly a picture or two that would be AWSOME!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

haha you dont wanna see pictures.. but i will make up digrams and show what i changed.. It was ugly in the end because i had to try so many iterations.. But its functional and should be reliable.
BAsically i set it up as if i were triggering a single ignition module off an LED like in the MSnSnExtra page diagrams with the 1K resistor and line heading off to X11, but instead of a 5volt trigger/ground setup i had to bump the voltage to 12V and use a 680ohm resistor in place of the stock 330ohm before the LED so it wouldnt burn out.
I did use the ZTX450's but in the end i dont think you'd need to upgrade the new style LED transistors are rated for 200ma i think which should be enough.


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Alright guys, I just got my 16v fired up using my v3 board to control spark. Im gonna try to make this a very detailed write up covering the whole process. Before I go on any further id like to say thanks to Dave (cdndub) and Calvin (kalvinlk) for all the help. This write up is based off of Dave's original write up but it will include a couple of things that were left out along with pictures. Thanks again guys.
First off, I purchased my v3 board already assembled because I didn't have the time to build it myself. Because of this I was kinda left out on the basic internals of ms. I read and asked a bunch of questions and eventually understood everything (well mostly everything







).
This pictures is good to use to get a basic idea of where things are located on the v3 board. 








With all that said I will now get on to the procedures that need to be made to make this thing control spark. 
First things first. TACHSELECT should be jumperd to OPTOIN. If its not please do so. 
2. After that you will need to solder a jumper wire to the previous jumper and run it over to the +5 pad above the proto area. You can see the +5 pad on the top side of the pcb. Like Dave said, This will give you 5v to power the hall. (cleaner signal)
3. Next you will have to cut the jumper between XG1 and XG2 if there is already one installed. After that you will need to run a jumper wire from XG1 and IAC-1A. This is the input for the tach signal from the dizzy.
4. If not already done you will have to jumper TSEL to OPTOOUT. 
5. This step pretty much depends on which firmware you are running on your v3 board. Basically this step is where you send a signal to the IGBT (onboard ignition driver) to let it know when to fire. On the v3 board the input is labeled IGBTIN. The output to this is what varies depending on what code you are using. The default output for the standard ms2 code is JS10 (ign). If you are using the standard ms2 code then run a jumper from IGBTIN to JS10. 
I on the other hand am still using the ms1 processor but running it with MSnS -E so I can control spark. If your running MSnS like I am then the default output is one of the led's. In this case you will have to run a jumper from IGBTIN to the top of R26 with a 330ohm 1/4 watt resister inline. You will be able to see R26 from the top of the pcb board. You can also refer to the pcb picture posted above. The reason you don't want to use JS10 with MSnS is because JS10 is a input for knock control. Check out the pictures below.
















6. Next jumper IGBTOUT to IGN if not already jumperd. This is the output to the coil (pulsed ground).
Now that all the internal mods have been performed we will move onto the wiring. Your basic hall sensor will have three wires. The three wires consist of a ground, power and signal. In almost all cases the middle wire is the signal wire. This wire will be ran to pin 25 or pin S1 on the relay board. 
Next is the ground wire. This wire will most likely be brown/white or just brown. You want to find a good grounding point for this wire. The last of the hall wires is the power wire. This wire should be red/black. The power wire will be ran to pin 24 or the TACH pin on the relay board. Finally its time for the coil wire. 
All you need to do is run a wire from pin 36 or S5 (relay board) to the negative side of the coil. This wire is a pulsed ground and will tell your coil when to fire. That's pretty much it guys. You've just moded your v3 board to control spark. If anyone wants to add to this or ask any questions please feel free. 

















-Chris



_Modified by Captain16vGTI at 1:20 AM 5-12-2006_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

Chris your writeup looks pretty good.
just a note on the pics you posted of the jumpers on the bottom side of your board.
The resistor you added inline looks fine, but it appears to be "floating" below the board and attached to the long wire, vibration and time will cause this to break off, or worse it will short the resistor/wire against the board above .. whenever i setup longer jumpers or components bridging large gaps I do one of two things, heatshrink the whole thing including the legs up to the point it gets soldered.. and/or take a hot glue gun and drop some glue over the connections or component to stop vibration from making a mess of it.
I've put enough of these things in race cars to know that vibration is your worst enemy.. I'm actually looking forwards to seeing the Microsquirt stuff come out because with all the surface mount and potential potting it seems like a much more reliable setup for a race car. and i'm sure the price will allow people to keep a spare one in their parts bin for those "just in case" times if something gets shorted etc.
for those of you who think i'm







check it out.. http://www.microsquirt.info


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Thank you very much for the advice Dave http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . I will hot glue that thing as soon as I get home tonight. I was also thinking it might be a problem down the road but wasn't sure. My ms box sits on the floor under my passenger seat so I assume it would be a good idea to do what you suggested. While I have my box open tonight im going to install my TIP122 as well as the other mods needed so I can control my isv. Thanks again

-Chris


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

Another small detail that I constantly see overlooked. These boards HAVE to get the flux cleaned off them! I have actualy repaired several failures caused by the excessive flux soaking up water and then shorting things out. 
Probally the best trick to do is to remove the processor and let the board soak in a small tub of alcohol for a few hours. Your likely going to have to chip a few stubborn flux sections off using something like a wooden toothpick. 
Flux left on these boards is actualy the number one cause of failure! Most of the time cleaning the board will solve the issue, but I have seen it require component replacement. 
Also ECU's I build or repair then get conformal coated after cleaning. Krylon Clear is perfect. I also found some clear UV reactive paint tho other day


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

All our Shipped ECU's get a heavy duty Flux cleaner applied which is a cross between alcohol and nail polish remover, and then a silicone conformal coating sprayed on at least the bottom.
Its definitely true about flux causing issues, specially around lower voltage signals or things like the IRQ line for the processor, its VERY sensative to tach spikes and even a small amount of noise on the line will cause misfires etc.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I've always had better luck using ShooGoo then superglue when potting board mods. Used to do that for field repairs for telecom equipment, it works VERY well. The best part is that it stays soft enough to peel off if you ever have to as well. 
Isopropyl alcohol is the best bet to clean the flux off, coupled with a nice soft brush. I've used acetone in the past and it can take silk screen off, very annoying.
If you're having flux buildup problems, you're either A) using WAY too much solder, or B) applying additional flux that you really don't need. There's not a single joint on one of these boards that should give even my cheapie 25W iron a run for its money.
I second the Krylon Clear as a board protectant works nicely. Though you do have to scrape it off before you make any repair/mod to the board. If you're selling the boards to others, I'd disclose that info so they don't try and solder through it.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I second the Krylon Clear as a board protectant works nicely. Though you do have to scrape it off before you make any repair/mod to the board. If you're selling the boards to others, I'd disclose that info so they don't try and solder through it.

SUPPOSEDLY you can solder through thr krylon. I think it was krylon the MegaManual says to use that you can solder through. Leaves a residue you have to clean off with alcohol. Now I have never had to repair a board yet protected with Krylon.
My personal boards are not protected. I take them out very reguarly and clean them, since I am still in a state of "flux"







with modding mine.
For alcohol, use 90% or stronger. The normal 70% is like pouring water on the board. I usally give a finish wash with the Radio Shack cleaner, then a rinse with hot soapy water. The alcohol tends to leave a haze, but soaking the baords in it works realy well.
OH, if your hotgluing parts, do this after the main soaking. Soaking these for a long time does have a tendancy to release the hot glue.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

yeah.. hotglue is the last part.. I usually drop a dab on any "flexible" parts like some of the vertical caps, the LED's and other bits/pieces to quash any unwanted vibration over time.
The flux remover I use is commercial stuff and claims not to remove the silkscreening though Acetone normally eats through just about anything like you say. Unless i have to do lots of repairs and or rework to the boards flux buildup is not usually a big issue either. I've only ever had one board that wouldnt work on the bench after assembly before cleaning the flux away and that was intermittent at worst.
You can solder through the silicone conformal coating as well, it just burns off as you go. removal is ideal though and yeah makes doing repairs or mods more difficult.
On the VR6 i'm tempted to conceed some defeat at this point and bolt an OBD1 throttle body on there and continue with bench testing the OBD2 unit so that the owner can have his car back..







for $50 it seems like an easy fix.. and the car would likely run fine with just the idle bumped to 800-900rpm without any idle assist.. It doesnt get below 0 much in Vancouver so cold starts not such a big issue.


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

When I used to work for a two-way shop we used toululene for cleaning flux - gotta say it worked pretty good, no soaking and it evaporated really quick. Just brush it on with an acid brush and she cleaned right up. For tacking wires and leads I used to just use a good superglue.
BTW - Awesome thread guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I've only ever had one board that wouldnt work on the bench after assembly before cleaning the flux away and that was intermittent at worst.

Yeah, right after you build it, its alost never an issue. For those who don't know, flux acts like a sponge and soaks up any and all moisture. Over time it will soak up enough that it will simply short things out or goof with the capaciters and whatnot. Causing usally weird intermittant issues or flakyness.
I have fixed two ECU's that compleatly failed to even power up due to flux. Simply cleaning them fixed the issue. I have also had about 5 others pass through my hands with weirdness caused by flux. Again cleaning them solved the issue.
I brought this up after seeing the flux on Chris's board in the above pictures (I am sure he just haden't gotten around to cleaning it yet







) EVERY board I have done mods on I didn't build, has needed to be cleaned extensivly though. It just seems like a commonly overlooked and VERY important step! It actualy shocks me to open up other electronics devices and see the flux on them. Apparently NOBODY beleives in cleaning flux off. But for most stuff I guess its just not going to matter. It definatly seems to though on the MegaSquirts!


----------



## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

This is terrible news. Coilpack VR6 on megasquirt. Now I must purchase this!
I have been struggling with the limits of my OBD1 MAF on my turbo Corrado. This could be the answer for me. 
A few questions, excuse the non-technical nature of the questions -me newbie!
I am interested in building and installing the MSnS (unsure of which hardware and software version). Ideally, I would like to buy the relay kit and place it into a gutted Motronic ECM case for a plug and play setup.
I know that the latest MSnS can be adapted (with the add-on) to log knock activity, but the stock knock sensors on the vr6 are the 3 wire type (apparently it is difficult to get a clean knock signal with these). Has anyone tried to get these things to work before? Also, it is wrong for me to assume that future software/hardware upgrades will allow full knock control?
I hear that in the future, there will be upgrades for sequential injection. Seeing as how the stock VR sensor and coils work, could the stock camshaft hall sender be used ? (1 flag for every 720 deg of crank rotation)
Now, I also have a dizzy MK2 VR6 Jetta. Seeing as how the crank position can be picked up form the VR crank sensor, could I get away with installing this computer into that car without having to make any modification to the hall sensor in the early VR6 distributor?
(ie. cutting additional holes in the encoder? wheel to make it a 6 window)
CdnDub, can you provide a parts list / setup parameters when you get this project completed?
BTW - Congrats on the success.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_I am interested in building and installing the MSnS (unsure of which hardware and software version). Ideally, I would like to buy the relay kit and place it into a gutted Motronic ECM case for a plug and play setup.

You will definatly need to do some reading up on the software bits, but since they are all free, not a big deal there. If your going to use the VR sensor stuff, get a V3.0 ECU. The MeagSquirt board will fit into the OBD-2 case, but its a LOT of work. The relay box will never fit though. If your trying to do plug and play, you have about 10-20 times the amount of work, than just rewiring it. About the only time it makes sense to reuse the ECU caas, is for racing classes where you can cheat a little by doing this. 

_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_I know that the latest MSnS can be adapted (with the add-on) to log knock activity, but the stock knock sensors on the vr6 are the 3 wire type (apparently it is difficult to get a clean knock signal with these). Has anyone tried to get these things to work before? Also, it is wrong for me to assume that future software/hardware upgrades will allow full knock control?

I never heard of it mattering if its one, two or three wire sensors. The three wire just has a shield, ground and output. The KnockSense from Viatrack is ready to plug into the MegaSquirt. Current versions ALREADY have full knock control. 
As for using it to control your mk2 VR6... It should work but your not going to be able to use the same setup. The coilpacks needs three triggers while the dizzy needs one for its coil. 
As for a parts list... Dave will even sell you the whole setup! Its on my list of things to do also... Eventualy I may have a full plug in kit for the obd-2 VR6. But as I am not the electronics guru Dave is... I will let him have the first one! Its also been way too cold here for working in the driveway... Also sourcing the OBD-2 connectors new isn't something I even want to attempt right now.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

I'm half tempted not to bother with a VR6 ecu swap kit based on MS.. My major focus is still vems after this project and VEMS is much more suited to control an OBD1/OBD2 coilpack VR.. its got all the necessary inputs and outputs built right in, no extra soldering, and it can take the cam position sensor input as well and do sequential spark and fuel, as well as the two knock sensors right in.
Add to that native Wideband support and its going to be a strong contender.
I'm thinking aloud but I cant reasonably see myself offering a fully configured VR6 replacement ECU with harness for less than $775 CDN <about $640 USD i think? > I can easily do a full VEMS ECU with support for the knock sensors, a higher quality harness with silicone jacketed wire, a 4bar map sensor <standard>, a wideband sensor and even an EGT sensor if wanted along with a nice LCD display for $1200-1300 CDN Given most people who are doing these swaps are going to be springing for a Wideband anyways it seems to me that the $300-400 USD difference in price may be fairly easy to swallow for all the extra functionality (including full sequential spark/fuel support if wanted)
I am however definitely open to ideas and input.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

When I say plug and play, I am just looking to keep the ECU side of the 68 pin connector to use as the interface between MS and the factory wiring harness. The relay kit would not have to fit into the case I guess, but I think it would be ideal to be able to just plug it into the engine wiring harness - to keep it reversible. The only reason I would like to try this is because, I drive my car daily, and I don't think I could get the tune right on the first shot. 
I looked into the knock sensor stuff, and only found one. It was a little box equipped to splice between the cars existing sensors. I don't remember the company, but they recommended the two wire sensors. 
(I dont know any different)
I think knock sensors , in a turbo car, can really help dial in the timing. I also have an innovate wideband that could be used for fuel correction. If all of this can be integrated-that is much better than my passive piggyback controller.
This is great stuff - thanks for the info T3Bunny. I guess I should keep reading.
Keep us posted on the progress http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

What is VEMS? just a more advanced engine controller? Is the support there? - one of the main reasons the megasquirt is attractive (for me) is the vast amount of info and support. 
BTW, CdnDub, I think an unassembled kit with wiring diagrams for stock wiring harness and amendments to hardware in detail would be the perfect kit for me - although this may not be ideal for others. You may have to start a poll post to gage interest for various configurations.


_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 12:39 AM 2-18-2006_


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I'm half tempted not to bother with a VR6 ecu swap kit based on MS.

I can't say I blame you there....







All your choices though point to VEMS WAY over the MS, except the one thing your not mentioning... VEMS has nothing in the way of even decent support or add ins. Okay, for add ins it doesn't need much though. But being able to tweak my ECU and set up tons of insane little features, keeps me out of the engine bay a little longer. Its a much cheaper way to keep the MODDING addiction in check!









_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_I looked into the knock sensor stuff, and only found one. It was a little box equipped to splice between the cars existing sensors.

Wrong type and basicaly useless. And I bet it even costs more than this one does! http://www.viatrack.ca/ Check out the KnocksenseMS.

_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_I think knock sensors , in a turbo car, can really help dial in the timing. I also have an innovate wideband that could be used for fuel correction. If all of this can be integrated-that is much better than my passive piggyback controller.

Innovative makes GOOD stuff! I use an LM-1 mostly myself. Mine has the full rpm/auxillary input setup so I can datalog from two sources. PLUS its also hooked into the MegaSquirt when tuning. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

VEMS is for the DIEHARD electronics Masochists out there.... There is very little support or documentation for it. Its UBER good stuff, but you have to realy know what your doing to make it work. 
If you want easy info and support, you picked right with the MegaSquirt! I was actualy running one of the "Big Name" boy systems before I found MegaSquirt. I purchased my first MS back in the "dark days" when it took MONTHS to get one!







Remember those days Dave?








I actualy took a HUGE loss on my system to swap over to MegaSquirt. After I installed it, my MS fired on the second twist of the key! I have NEVER looked back since. My biggest problem now is buying cars so I can MS them...







Currently I probally have ten ECU's sitting on my table. And four are actualy mine! 
Actualy what I got the BIGGEST laugh out of when reading the early MS manual was a line that went kinda like this, "MegaSquirt is a basic FI system. If you need all the additional inputs, outputs and features, then your better off going with one of the name brand systems..."
I found this funny becaus I switched from said "name brand ecu" to a MegaSqurit for this exact reason! The MS unit had a MILLION times more options and flexability!


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

VEMS is getting easier at least for the end user.. It uses megatune now just like MS.. as long as all the base setup work is done by someone "in the know" electronics and config wise with the firmware and its supplied as a plug and play style unit where you either cut/splice wires with a good diagram or have a new T68 style connector that hooks right in place of the Motronic etc brain it shouldnt be that hard.
As far as modding, you dont need to crack the ECU case to add things like extra drivers or upgrade control chips.. If i set it up for a VR6 with 6 fuel outputs and 3 spark outputs <stock coil> or even with 6 spark outputs <COP> There would be two spare drivers left over from each bank for a total of 6 spare high current drivers two with PWM and two without
Theres an additional 4 extra outputs from what i recall on top of that for things like boost control or relays etc. 
It just seems to me that there would be a lot less time poking around with hardware mods that way and a lot more time getting down to the functionality.
Builtin EGT, Wideband and knock do go a long way.. if you are to add these things to MS, you need either the new GPIO board and MS2 <still in development though> a wideband controller $199 cheapest with sensor> and an some knock chips.. at least another $100 + the wideband for $250-300 USD to add those features to a regular MS ecu.
and then its addons and extra boxes etc etc.
I dont know what all the answers are but a consolidated unit seems like it would have a nice fit especially as a dropin ECU replacement with the Bosch plug.


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_
I brought this up after seeing the flux on Chris's board in the above pictures (I am sure he just haden't gotten around to cleaning it yet









I didn't even know that the flux would cause a problem to be honest. After looking at some other boards I do see how they are very clean. When I open mine up again ill make sure to clean it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Chris


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_After looking at some other boards I do see how they are very clean. When I open mine up again ill make sure to clean it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif-Chris

Trust me man, I have seen a LOT WORSE! Yours isn't too bad. But that stuff can cause issues over time... If its left long enough to cause solder bloom, the board is basically junk and even resoldering them doesn't seem to work too well. 
I didn't want to single you out. I have seen enough of them that I realized this step seems to get overlooked by a LOT of people.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

VR is running MUCH better.
3.6-4ms Dwell at 12V seems to be the sweet spot. Car is charging at 14.4volts when running so dwell is likely lower with the voltage correction
Cranking and Running dwell are nearly identical cranking is set to 4.5ms and it fires up almost every time.
No more misfires when revving <or revving and holding> like i was seeing at 1.5-2.5ms dwell.
Oh and for those trying to wire up theirs. Green and Black to ground and Red to Tach Input from the VR sensor wired in reverse you will get nothing. Trigger points are 5, 25, 45 teeth and non inverted output with a 0-12 V signal
I'm going to scope the inputs and the outputs and try to post some pictures before its all done.
TPS mostly works, wired up in reverse of stock i see the sweep i need but it never goes below about 10% open and wont read past about 70% when calibrated..
Just to prove i'm not crazy heres a vid (last file not the first) you'll need quicktime.
http://www.fireandfuel.ca/gall...age=5



_Modified by CdnDub at 6:35 PM 2-20-2006_


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Awesome. It sounds good. It looks like you are just about there - have you driven the car yet? Are you using a wideband O2 to tune this thing?
As far as ignition advance, did someone supply you with the ignition curve of a coilpack VR6, or did you sort of wing it? 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Woah... NON-inverted output? That's good to know








Good job on the trigger points... I'll put those to the test on the MKIV when I get to that point. More and more stuff keeps on getting added to this project, such as a short runner intake manifold. The critical pieces of my project haven't even materialized yet, that is the SRI and the cogged pullies for my supercharger. I'm onto a few leads to source some pullies, though.
I might end up getting frusterated with the SC and get rid of it in favor of a turblow setup... only time will tell.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

Yeah non inverted is right, also needs to be setup to do 0-12V instead of 0-5V on the LED outputs 
And I would love an Ignition curve if someone has one, I dont have any thing i'm building it all from scratch.
running about 16deg's at idle and have a max advance of 34deg's at WOT and around 39-40 when cruising.
I havnt driven it yet, still needs the clutch adjusted and i'm about to try out the PWM idle code to get it idling better.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

you could see if you could find a VAG-COM log form someones stock VR to get the ignition curve. Mine wont work, as I have the piggyback .


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

CRAP.... I forgot you could do that.... To bad my OBD-2 VR6 harness is all mangled now! 
I am in limbo on doing the managment for my 87 VR. Its still nasty cold here, and both the garages I have access to are currently stuffed with other projects. Plus there are some major electrical gremlins in that car. Like ABS issues and other old VW issues.
Anyways my current MegaSquirt project should be running this coming weekend! I think we have gotten all the stupid bug issues finally worked out. I have decided that I will be selling my kits from now on with a dedicated fusebox.







ALL the installation issues my freinds and customers have had (with kits or harnesses I supplied anyways) were due to bad grounds, poor power, crappy old VW fuseboxes, and whacked VW relays.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

lol the trusty ol vw fusebox








The VR is running with PWM idle control.. it works about 10% of the time the rest of the time it just surges then drops then surges.. 
sounds kinda cool but totally innefective. Settings made some difference but i'm gonna see what the guys who wrote the code have to say.
the VW throttle motor is definitely not what it was designed for since whenever it opens the valve it also increases the TPS reading.


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## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Like ABS issues

Theres a real easy way to get around that Jaimie.








Dave, AWESOME work! Did you end up using an OBDI TB? I'm going to be running a short runner with a Mustang TB eventually but I'd like to use the OBDII TB for now. 
Also, I know your not done yet with everything and you didn't wind up needing to use the beefed up LEDs so what other components besides a standard kit am I going to need? I know you mentioned everything but you posted here and on the MSEFI forum and I just want to make sure I order everything in one shot. I can't stand ordering stuff and figuring out I need something else mid-build...or you can just sell me a signature FandF unassembled kit.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (darren p.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darren p.* »_Theres a real easy way to get around that Jaimie.









Yeah but wheres the fun in that? Its a 1987 golf GT and its definatly NOT sposed to have it.... Hence the reason its there!








Besides, this is the wife's baby and my kids ride in it SO... With the condition of our winters and roads up here I feel better with the car having ABS. Its never even going to pretend to be a racer. Just an old decent looking A2 with some funny 5-lug wheels on her... Maybe one day I will even install the Zender sideskirts I got sitting around here somewhere.
Realy all I need to do is sort this cars electrical system. It has ALSO developed the classic VW syndrome where the drier it is outside, the more water is INSIDE the car.







I suspect the windsheild seals. And probally every other seal on the car...
You know the funny thing? My Cabby is the only VW I have owned that DIDN'T leak? And its a German one too! Oh, the A3 didn't leak, but I never though much of that car and never felt it was a "true" VW in spirit.










_Modified by T3Bunny at 2:17 AM 2-21-2006_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Dave, VR6 ignition values are about 28 at tq peak and ramps to 32deg at the hp peak and beyond. That's with a GIAC chip and 93 octane. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Wow... information is moving fast, now. So on OBD1 TB, you can use PWM to do idle control? Or are you using an idle control valve? I think on the OBDII DBW (drive by wire) TB it uses the stepper motor to adjust the TB opening... I could be wrong on that, though. I'm thinking I'm going to run an OBD I TB with a short runner intake... I'm interested in figuring out how idle control is going to work.
I already ripped off the secondary air injection with no intentions of putting it back in, but from what I understand that's only for cold start stuff (makes the exhaust really loud to let you neighbors know you're warming up your car for work hehe)
About the triggers... I'm running my ignition triggers off of a seperate set of 2n2222's. I can just set the source (Vdd) to +12v instead of running it off the +5v rail. And, wow... 4.5ms of dwell, that used to max out my old power supply on my bench, but it had terrible load regulation (when it got loaded, the +12 line would sag down to 9V







). But my new PSU is a 350w dell, so it's rockin' pretty hard.


_Modified by majic at 8:58 AM 2-21-2006_


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (majic)*

Hey everyone, I was wondering if a couple of people could take a look at a thread I made on the ms forums. Im having a horrible idle problem that I cant diagnose. Jamie (T3Bunny) has been very helpfully in trying to fix this with me. Hopefully someone on here can aid in getting rid of my problem. Thanks guys
-Chris

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=15523


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

Sorry its been a while since i dropped an update.
The OBD2 VR6 runs and runs well, I have the TPS working, and the 0-5V throttle motor working
This is a big step, it means i can support the throttle motors in all the OBD2 VW's.. including the ABA's and 1.8T's
I'll be working on a writeup and will post running configs soon enough..








New videos are up showing how it works.. i'm still tuning but its pretty smooth.
http://www.fireandfuel.ca/gall...age=5


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Oh, this is the 1000th post







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GeoffVR6 (Feb 16, 2002)

I finally had a chance to check out a VR6 OBDII cable throttle body. The internals are slightly different but electrically they look to be the same as the Audi 2.8 throttlebody pics I posted.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

so i have my v3 board wired up like on page 28 and when i turn the ignition key to on vb921 turns hot real quick, i have a 3 wire ignition module it is on an obd2 2.0 aba 8v. first i tried wiring the trigger wire to the middle wire on the coil harness, my problem was getting the car to stay running at idle. it did idle nicely but then out of nowhere it would die. so then what i did was i cut the ignition module off of the coil and i wired one terminal to the fuel pump positive and the other terminal to the megasquirt and then i turned on the ignition and vb921 got really hot. i dont understand whats going on. any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

You shouldn't be using the VB921 and the on coil igniter. Easiest way to fix is split the coil and take the amplifier section off and wire just the coil section up and leave your VB921 on the board. Don't forget to have dwell control on and ignition inverted with it hooked up that way. 3ms running 6ms cranking is a good starting point.
It working then not working could have been the VB921 dying.. hard to say.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

that is what i did, at first, there are 3 wires on the ignition module. i wired the middle wire to the megasquirt, when that wasnt working good i cut off the ignition control module off and wired one to positive and one to the megasquirt. thats when the problem with the vb921 started happening.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

Double check your ignition settings are what I wrote above, and if that doesn't work I'd try another VB921.


----------



## 18turbo13 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Question???? if anyone has used one, is it possible to use a newer 1.8t O2 sensor since it is a wideband?? I see the drawings for the lc1 wired up, but don't know if it would be the same, my thinking would be yes, but don't know the specs.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (18turbo13)*

you could use the wideband 02 sensor but you need to make a controller. alot of people use http://www.wbo2.com ones and put them in the megasquirt case or the people who developed megasquirt have one also but not developed and supported much as compared to MS.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (bonesaw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bonesaw* »_...or the people who developed megasquirt have one also....

Not true. There is no wideband avalible from the MegaSquirt group. There is one in the works though, but its far from being avalible to the public. A processor for the controler hasn't even been determined yet! 
A LARGE amount of the MS users are running the Innovate LC-1 controller. Its very inexpensive and works VERY well!


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

what about the precision wideband controller by bowling and grippo? i know its poorly developed but it still exists. id get a lc-1 they are inexpensive. can also get the AEM guage type for like 260.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (bonesaw)*

The PWC form B&G is NOT poorly developed!!! Its not AVALIBLE yet. Thats what I was refering to above.








In fact its the development of it thats taking so long. Al and Bruce want to get it right the first time out. They just purchased super expensive labatory mass spectrometer or something to develope it further. When the PWC hits the "market" oer say, I suspect its going to crap on everybodie elses in both performance and in price. 
When the final UMS version comes out, I think its likely going to be a system comparable to the VEMS. Hopefully without the support issues!


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

*lol* I don't think it will have support issues because there are going to be 1000 people out there that have evolved with the knowledge of every other version of MS... and they'll be able evolve with the new versions that get rolled out from B&G


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

Not sure if you guys are interested or not but the VEMS widebands are just about ready for the masses.
retail is $250 euro's plus shipping and includes the sensor and connectors, its a 52mm gauge with EGT built in. the EGT probe does not come with it, but there isnt anything on the market so feature rich for that price i dont think.. the Zeitronix is close but has had quite a few quality control issues in the past and is a fair bit larger. The controller is the gauge with the VEMS unit and its designed for the masses instead of the VEMS ECU which is a little more for the electronics/tuning hardcore guys
Fireandfuel will be stocking them shortly and shipping to the US isnt a big deal.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=AfreshTiny



_Modified by CdnDub at 4:34 AM 3-9-2006_


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

As a comparison, an LC-1 is $200. Error's extra daughtercard is $60 with EGT. And boost controll, and water injection control, and sequential shiftlights, and well TONS of things! 
Dave, I think its AWSOME that your going to be making such a cool product avalible to us all! I am still just not convinced about the VEMS system. 
The MegaSquirt system DEFINATLY has its little issues. Mainly beig that there are so many features and options that implimentation at times can be confusing to say the least. But then on the other hand, those features are the reason I sold my $3000 dollar setup for $300 to get a MegaSquirt in the first place. My high dollar system just didn't have the features I needed. OR the support. 
Support for me is the BIGGEST thing. With the MEgaSquirt system I can get just about any question I have ansered in as quickly as a few hours.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

BTW Dave, ya got some tuned .msq's from a certain car yet?! And details man details!








Wife is getting on me to stop making harnesses and fix HER car. My scope died a horrible death about when I was getting good at using it...







I HAVE to send it off for repairs soon...
BUT, until I do I got an excuse for NOT having MSed the VR yet so....


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

The MSQ will be done soon for the OBD2 motor, i am having to add another 5V reg, the resistor pack trick didnt work as well as i'd like to drop the 12V to 5V .
I've already booked an install on another Mk2 VR with an OBD2 motor so a writeup will be pending before i start on that vehicle at the end of march.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

got it running







now the problem is when the motor gets cold i try and start it, it starts, and then dies unless i keep my foot on the gas for like five seconds. my other problem is i have kind of an idea on how to tune spark but i am by no means a genius at it. any pointers would be greatly appreciated


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

Your ASE needs to be adjusted. You have two types of cold enrichment. ASE is your imediate after start enrichment. It lasts as long as you program it, but usally around 4-5 seconds. Then the warmup enrichment takes over and lasts tell the car is warmed up.
As for spark, you NEED to get your VE tables/fueling on track first. Spark tuning comes later after your engine is running right on with fueling. Make sure you have the spark tables in the ballpark though.
Spark tuning is a little tricky. You will need to have a good ear, good maps to start with, or a datalogging knock setup. The last one is realy the best way to do it. There is only one setup that easily integrates with the MegaSquirt. Its the KnocksenseMS by Viatrack. ANd its cheap at $65!!! This one will pop a spike onto the coolant line when it sees knock. Makes it a lot easier to find the areas on the datalogging where knock is starting.
Basicaly, your going to increase timing right unti the edge of knock. Then you back the timing off slightly. If your running water injection you can create hard maps here by tweaking your injection up. BUT make sure you build a safe map at these points also. Spark tuning optimaization is best done on a dyno. If your NOT using a dyno you will almost definatly need to be capable of datalogging knock.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Hate to say it but load tuning for knock on the dyno doesnt always work as well either.. It helps you get some of the WOT, but the rollers often dont give you realistic enough loads.
I've noticed on more than one occasion that i can be more agressive with timing on the dyno than i'd have thought but then when leaving the shop as soon as i hit the street at the same timing and usually boost level the car knocks.
Never noticed this on Naturally aspirated cars. 
Your other observations are all good though, one thing i find really useful when tuning on the dyno is a clip on microphone with headphones, use your own ears to listen for knock, i dont trust sensors as they frequently detect things that arent knock to be knock.
unless its the stock computer on a basically stock engine knock is a hard thing to listen for with a sensor since the frequencies match the block etc.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

oh.. forgot to mention.. VR6 is running and driving and got taken home today








Idle is pretty stable but still needs some tweaking, didnt get into a full tune because there is no wideband hooked up currently and no easy way to sniff the tailpipe <he has a cat>
I'll do more of a writeup shortly and post some msq's
Dave


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_...one thing i find really useful when tuning on the dyno is a clip on microphone with headphones...

Steelman ChassiEar is your friend!








I was actualy using mine tonight to track down a front end vibration. Our parts transport van is giving us hell


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

i definately tuned the ve tables first. i had used ms to control fuel only at first, once i had tuned the fuel, then i converted the spark. so what i did was installed the 4 window hall dizzy like i was going to use it with the stock ecu, then i got a generic spark table and converted it over to stock. so what you are saying is in order to get my spark settings tuned, i need to be able to detect knock?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

Yes, your going to need to be able to detect knock. Either by microphone or knock detector or both. By ear isn't going to happen unless you have a very quiet exhaust or very sensitive ear. Also somebody else is going to need to drive. 
The KnocksenseMS is tunable for knock sensitivity. I would use that and a microphone personaly. Then you can adjust the KnocksenseMS to where YOU want it to detect.
Tuning fuel is relitively easy. Most of it can be done automaticaly with the right tools and software. Tuning spark is harder and requires a bit more time. Also your going to have to do all that manualy. Unless you realy know what your doing, I would just try to get pretty well optimized spark maps for your engine then focus on the danger and power areas.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

do you think i could use my stock knock sensor to check for knock?


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

you can use the stock knock sensor, but you need a conditioning circuit to get a logical input to megasquirt... it's just like the wideband o2 sensor on VW's, you can use it... you just need a controller to make sense of the analog signal that gets spit out.
So in a way of speaking -- yes... but you need the condition circuit (which you can build yourself if you like), or you can just buy the knocksenseMS (which is the condition circuit build by someone else to be used with MS).


----------



## sharpshooter33 (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: (majic)*

TEC(tail end of conversation) who has a website or info on the knocksenseMS?
I'm just starting on my MS project and just reading along. It may have been already posted, but I've missed it
Thanks


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (sharpshooter33)*

http://www.viatrack.ca/ I don't remember seeing it posted actualy.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

nice, thank you very much guys, it is much appreciated


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

now how about trigger angle? do i need to set this, my motor seems to run the best at a trigger angle of 29, what does this mean, is there a site that explains all of this in detail?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

How did you wire up your dizzy to the MS and which code do you have?
Sounds like you need to adjust your dizzy.
29deg trigger angle wont let you run more than 29deg's of advance.
not much for an NA motor


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Just a question about VR6 FI tuning. What AFR should I shoot for across the board? I'm going to be tuning a supercharged vr6 with a vortech supercharger... I'll probably see up to 16 lbs of boost, but it'll all be at higher (probably above 3000) RPM's. I've got a wideband and a wideband controller... what do you guys think?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (qbngolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *qbngolf* »_now how about trigger angle? do i need to set this, my motor seems to run the best at a trigger angle of 29, what does this mean, is there a site that explains all of this in detail?

MegaManual
This is the best place to start! Read then reread! As for your trigger angle, I am betting your firing it on the wrong edge of the Hall sensor. Did you invert the signal? You have to do it electricaly though on the VW hall. IE you can't do it inside MT even thought there is a choice. If you used the setup described in this thread, you should be fine.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_What AFR should I shoot for across the board? 

Your not going to shoot for one AFR, but tweak it for what you need at the differant points. A supercharger is a LOT easier to set a table for though as itv very linear.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

i wired the board up like it said to on page 28, dizzy is set up good, signal is inverted, the the code is msns e i believe it is 024s, on a v3 board, but the motor isnt na its turbo.when i installed the dizzy i set the crank to tdc and installed it like i would on a stock motor. i guess i have to rotate the dizzy and make increments on the mt trigger angle to get the angle to like 60?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (qbngolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *qbngolf* »_ signal is inverted... i guess i have to rotate the dizzy and make increments on the mt trigger angle to get the angle to like 60?

Okay if your signal is SET for inverted inside Megatune, you need it set for non inverted. 


_Modified by T3Bunny at 5:28 PM 3-13-2006_


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

really, from what ive been reading the spark output is supposed to be set to innverted. now im confused


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Yeah -- before the boost really kicks in, from what I've read it should be somewhere around the 13:1 range, stoich at idle... and under boost, should be closer to 11:1 or so, and at WOT what would you recommend?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

The hardware mods invert it. Inside MegaTune is is set for non inverted.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*

Even with a turbo, anything above 12 is kinda pointless. IMHO. I am guessing others will have a differant opinion, but you just need enough fuel to supply the power needed.
After that point your dumping fuel pointlessly. Most of these misconceptions are coming from the old days of tuning when you HAD to have a large safety cushion. 
I have a buddy who ran a twin turbo RX-7. He managed to tune it for a cruise that allowed him to get 30mpg on a ROTARY.







Yet when he nailed the throttle, the car would spit fire. The days of carb tuning are over!








I have a picture of it spitting fire at over 100mph....


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

the inverted vs non inverted question.. are you using a V3 board and driving a module or are you triggering the coil right from MS?
The writeup by the captain16Vgti was actually incorrect the ignition out needs to come from the LED and not from JP10 when using the extra code.. JP10 on the extra code is actually used for knock input








I dont know why i didnt spot it till now.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*



captain16Vgti said:


> I on the other hand am still using the ms1 processor but running it with MSnS -E so I can control spark. If your running MSnS like I am then the default output is one of the led's. In this case you will have to run a jumper from IGBTIN to the top of R26 with a 330ohm 1/4 watt resister inline. You will be able to see R26 from the top of the pcb board. You can also refer to the pcb picture posted above. The reason you don't want to use JS10 with MSnS is because JS10 is a input for knock control. Check out the pictures below
> QUOTE]
> this is what he stated, i do have the same board setup as him, he says to use js10 with the standard ms2 code. i am triggering the coil directly from the ms
> 
> ...


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_the inverted vs non inverted question.. are you using a V3 board and driving a module or are you triggering the coil right from MS?
The writeup by the captain16Vgti was actually incorrect the ignition out needs to come from the LED and not from JP10 when using the extra code.. JP10 on the extra code is actually used for knock input








I dont know why i didnt spot it till now.

As qbngolf said, In my write up I did say that the output for extra is one of the leds. Before I wrote the write up I had stated in this thread that I used JP10 for an output and I wanted a confirmation. You replied back saying that everything looked fine. After that I found out that it wasn't fine because I wasn't using ms2. Then I ended up using one of the leds with the inline resister. I made the write up after I got the car running.

_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_
5. This step pretty much depends on which firmware you are running on your v3 board. Basically this step is where you send a signal to the IGBT (onboard ignition driver) to let it know when to fire. On the v3 board the input is labeled IGBTIN. The output to this is what varies depending on what code you are using. The default output for the standard ms2 code is JS10 (ign). If you are using the standard ms2 code then run a jumper from IGBTIN to JS10. 
I on the other hand am still using the ms1 processor but running it with MSnS -E so I can control spark. If your running MSnS like I am then the default output is one of the led's. In this case you will have to run a jumper from IGBTIN to the top of R26 with a 330ohm 1/4 watt resister inline. You will be able to see R26 from the top of the pcb board. You can also refer to the pcb picture posted above. The reason you don't want to use JS10 with MSnS is because JS10 is a input for knock control. Check out the pictures below.


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

captain do you have the spark output set to inverted or non inverted? mine is set to inverted. but i just tried to set it to non inverted and when i turned the ignition on (engine not running) vb921 got really hot, BUT i got ballsy and turned it over anyways. the engine wanted to start alot faster but i set it back because i dont like the idea of vb921 getting so hot. This thing is soooooo confusing










_Modified by qbngolf at 5:58 PM 3-13-2006_


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

I have mine set to inverted. The MSnS website says that it should be set this way also. Are you setting it up according to midnight's write up ? Im sure we will get this thing runnnin http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Chris


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

yeah i have mine set to inverted but i am triggertng my coil right from the ms. i cut the stupid 3 wire ignition module off of my coil. i dont have a seven pin like in midnights diagram
dave


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

also what do you have your dwell settings and trigger angle set at? i just wanna compare em to mine


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

Im sorry I should have been more clear. I meant are you setting yours up using the trigger angle directions given in his write up ? Once you do the mods I listed in my write up you should use his to setup your trigger angle. I don't have my computer with me at the moment but I believe I have a running dwell of 3.0ms. Hope this helps.
-Chris

EDIT: I forgot about the trigger angle. Mine is set at 67. 


_Modified by Captain16vGTI at 7:10 PM 3-13-2006_


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

ah hah! i knew i was forgetting something, yeah uh i kinda skipped that step because i dont have an advance timing light, tomorrow after work i will do everything up to that step which requires that light, just moved down to miami from ct so friends with timing lights are at a minimum. if i can i will see if i can borrow one from one of these vw dudes i met down here if he has one, do you think that timing light is absolutely necessary?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

sorry guys I just missed it, Guess i was right the first time when i said it was right







i shouldnt second guess myself lol.
Inverted is right for the VB921 and running dwell of 3.0ms is perfect with a stock coil..


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (qbngolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *qbngolf* »_ah hah! i knew i was forgetting something, yeah uh i kinda skipped that step because i dont have an advance timing light, tomorrow after work i will do everything up to that step which requires that light, just moved down to miami from ct so friends with timing lights are at a minimum. if i can i will see if i can borrow one from one of these vw dudes i met down here if he has one, do you think that timing light is absolutely necessary? 

Yes it is very necessary. Without a advance timing light you wont be able to find your exact trigger angle. Mine just so happens to be at 67deg but yours may differ a little. Midnights directions are pretty awesome so it shouldn't be to hard to setup. 

_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_sorry guys I just missed it, Guess i was right the first time when i said it was right







i shouldnt second guess myself lol.


When you said it was right is when it was wrong. You had said that everything looked fine when I had asked for confirmation. I found out it wasn't when my 921 got REALLY hot because it was hooked up to JS10. Then I went back and did some reading and found out that JS10 is ONLY for ms2. That's why I made the output selection very clear in my write up. Its no big deal though. I just wanted to clear things up. 
-Chris


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

Sorry Chris, I've been building too many MS2 and MSnSnExtra boards lately and not getting enough sleep.. Certainly didnt want to assist in incorrect documentation.
I'm still planning to do a writeup on the VR6 config and on the SR20DET that i did.
As a business FnF is moving away from Megasquirt, I still have a personal interest in it, but VEMS is what we offer from now on.
I'm hoping to offer "kits" that are as close to plug/play or splice/play as possible using VEMS for the newer VW motors, MS still makes perfect sense for the older engines, but you guys have got that stuff nailed down, so what do you need me for







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

No problem man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Without you the vw-ms community wouldn't be what it is today. Hopefully with you playing with VEMS people will be getting into that more as well. There will definitely be a lot more support for it with you aboard. Keep us updated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I almost wish I could get rid of my MS to experiment with VEMS now http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by majic at 11:49 AM 3-15-2006_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

I'll keep you guys posted on my progress.
Feel free to laugh but the first vehicle of mine to get VEMS is a 1987 Plymouth Sundance 2.2 turbo <non intercooled>
Gonna daily drive it for a while so i figured it was a good test bed. Its got factory electronic boost solenoids and the dizzy is very much like a VW 8 or 16V dizzy with 4 windows etc.
Dodges of that era were very similar to VW's in design philosophy, built like lego cars.
I'll keep people posted with my progress if you guys are curious.


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I wish my job was making cars work with stand-alone engine management systems all day long!


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

lol.. mine isnt.. I dont sleep much.
I'm a Senior Unix/Network Engineer by day m-f 8-4 and do FnF in the evenings and on weekends. My wife works full time for FnF looking after shipping products and answering everyones emails... and soldering up the V2.2 and V3 MS ECU's to date.
One day soon i hope to be able to leave the IT world and do EFI and fab work all day long
Looks like i get to play with a Race NSX next as well.. 12,000rpm motor with titanium rods, drysumped etc etc.. Think it needs some ITB's


----------



## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

ok spent like seventy five bucks on an advance timing light which i only used for like fifteen minutes to set the trigger angle. got it set though but i am still having the problem of the car dying whenever i start it, regardless if it is from a cold start or a hot start. i have to keep my foot on the gas for like five to ten seconds to keep the motor running and then the idle is very unsable. after like five minutes of driving though the idle stays right around 11 grand. could it be because i dont have an idle air control valve on my car? the original throttle body came with a stepper motor to control the idle but i changed it out with an obd1 tb. any suggestions?


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

I don't think its the fact that you don't have a isv. Im not running one with my engine and everything is fine. I don't know if the aba tb's have an idle adjustment screw or not. If it doesn't then you will have to crack it open a little with the adjustment screw. Also, Make sure that all your cylinders are firing. Check plugs for spark and check injectors while your at it. When I first got mine running I had a hard time getting mine to idle. It turned out being two dead injectors. Once all this is clear and you can go ahead and start tuning your idle once the engine is warm. Once you have a good idle is when you can start tuning your warm up enrichments and stuff like that. Keep us updated.
-Chris


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## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*

i definately have an idle adjustment screw, i have it set so when its warm, it idles around 1100 rpms. i mean once the car has been running for like five minutes (after it has been driven) the idle is great, its just when i start the car, it doesnt matter if its a cold start or if the car is fully warmed up and i try to start it, it does the same thing. i just bought refurbished greentop injectors from [email protected] so i highly doubt its the injectors. i will check the spark tomorrow though. i may need new plugs i believe i may have fouled them out when tuning initially last weekend, i will keep you guys updated though, thanks for all the help


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_I wish my job was making cars work with stand-alone engine management systems all day long!

HAHA! Its a pain... But I LOVE doing it! I wish I were half as good at it as Dave is though!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Hopefully I will get enough practice to catch up quickly though!









_Quote, originally posted by *qbngolf* »_i definitely have an idle adjustment screw, i have it set so when its warm, it idles around 1100 rpms. i mean once the car has been running for like five minutes (after it has been driven) the idle is great, its just when i start the car, it doesnt matter if its a cold start or if the car is fully warmed up and i try to start it, it does the same thing. ...

Okay, what TB are you using then? The most common one for running the TPS setup is the 16v automatic Passat one. It doesn't have an idle screw. So I am guessing your either not running a TPS or you have a G-60 TB or something? 
If your running the 16v auto one without an ISV, you HAVE to crank it open pretty far for a decent idle. And 1100rpm warm is high. CIS cars like to idle that high sure, but you can get even a badly tuned MS car thats setup right down to 700-800rpm. 
But first you need to fiddle with your ase enrichment. It sounds like thats where its off. I am going to guess that you have ASE setup to run for a LONG time. ASE shouls run for between 4 and maybe 15 seconds. I had this same issue on my first setup. The cure was dropping ASE down to about 5 seconds and cracking the TB open to a comfortable bit. If you have the screw and can adjust it that way, COOL. But it sounds like the screw is too far open and I am guessing your ASE is on for too long and either overly rich or MORE likely too lean! 


_Modified by T3Bunny at 11:26 AM 5-12-2006_


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

Rereading your post, you DEFINATLY have something whacked with your ASE. Take a screenshot of your ASE settings if you can. I am going to bet its actualy LEANING the car out.


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

What are you guys getting as a vaccum reading on your MS at idle... ?


_Modified by cdn20VALVE at 9:47 AM 3-16-2006_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (cdn20VALVE)*

depends on your cam and compression, i've seen VW motors pull 20kpa at idle, and others like my old GTI with ITB's and a big cam only able to pull 70kpa at idle.


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Cool. 
Just found one problem with my setup.


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## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

im not exactly sure of how to take a screenshot, do i just use a camera and then upload it onto the site


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

Use the printscreen button (usually ctrl + another key above the home/page kets) and then paste it into paint and save.


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## qbngolf (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

here you go









yeah having a little trouble uploading onto the net
honestly, it wasnt that big when i first posted it








_Modified by qbngolf at 6:57 PM 3-16-2006_


_Modified by qbngolf at 7:37 PM 3-16-2006_


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## mike_g60 (Mar 24, 2006)

*Re: (qbngolf)*

sorry for this question:
ich haved read some sites of this thread, but it is to much for my bad english.
I need a wiring and conecting-diagram of MS 2.2 or/and MS 3 for Golf II G60.
I want to use the msnse-firmware vor injection and ingnoction together
I have only the 4 Window-Dizzy wthout other trigger-signal.
Also i want to use wasted spark (2 outputs on 2x2 coils(driver in build)).
how can i setup on megatune which
injection is together with which output?
i think that some of posters here has experience with g60-engine and megasquirt. I bed that someone can help me...
sorry for my bad english









Kind regards


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## mike_g60 (Mar 24, 2006)

sorry guys, is my english to bad or my question to stupid?
why i don't get an answere? what did I wrong?


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: (mike_g60)*

Anyone have a diagram of how to make your harness when running megasquirt with the stock '87 knock sensor ign?


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (diddle)*

what plug wires are you guys using for the 16v? I need to make some plug wire to fit the distributor and coil


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

using info i got in this thread, and more specifically from communications with CdnDub, need_a_vr6, wolfgti, patatron and t3 bunny, my aba w/ itbs now has spark and the fuel pump cycling correctly. tonight i am replacing my fuel pump and the lil fella shoud come to life
thanks guys
keep this thread moving 
i'll be sure to get a vid clip up when i do


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (urogolf)*























Glad to hear it! Keep us posted!
Speaking of keeping us posted... Dave how's your VR6 coming? Going back through the posts and I am curious as to your final setup configurations and ECU mods. It sounds like its well sorted out now!


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=17812 
here is the link to MSefi of the post I put on. its info on the problems I'm having.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

I know i'd said my first vems install woudl be a dodge







but apparently i cant get away from VR6's now.
Just posted this in a seperate thread cause this one is getting a little long in the tooth








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2586472
Dave


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I am having trouble getting a tach signal on a VR6. I have a MSII and V3.0 board. I am using the crank mounted VR sensor. (Black and Green wire to gorund, red to tach signal.) The board is setup for VR sensor input.
Using MegaTune, I am getting RPMs of 3000+ when cranking!! I have tried a bunch of different settings in MegaTune, as well as combinations of the VR sensor wiring.
Any suggestions ??
Other Info: I have good IAT, CLT, and TPS signals. Fuel pump operates as expected. This is installed on a 1992/3 VR6 with a dizzy - OBDI, in a 1987 Jetta. I am using MS to trigger the coil directly and the dizzy to dizz.


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*

I am going to try the V2.54 embedded code that uses wheel decoding. That is surely the problem.


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*

Hey guys. I haevn't posted here in a while. So my MS is running great. I got my wideband in there, and it's properly controlling my AFR etc... 
Let me begin by saying that I have a Fiddle valve. A small solenoid with two nipples. It allows air to bypass once activated. It allows air to enter the intake manifold. The nipple holes are so small though that it does absolutely nothing for my idle speed. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif. The best part is that this is the GM solenoid recommended on the MSEFI FAQ. I paid $45.00 CDN for it because i wanted to do it right...
My only problem is the cold start. My engine is not getting enough air, and stalls right after start up. The only way to cure it is to raise the idle screw so that my engine gets enough air. Problem with this is that once the engine warms up my rpm is at 1500 rpm. Not to mention my MAP readings are off the wall at idle because it's letting in so much air.
Anything you guys can think of that would help me in this situation? I'm thinking I need a bigger solenoid that lets in more air. Or maybe I can have the solenoid I have activate a larger valve using vacuum. Like a diverter valve or something... something with BIG openings...


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (cdn20VALVE)*

ABA Scirocco answered this, but his post seems to be missing...








Anyways yeah, use the Auxilary air valve that VW used. Or use one of the VW PWM type idle valves you find on the Motronic and newer systems. 
I am currently running the CIS style Auxillary valve. Works pretty good except the car is turbocharged... I have both of the other types sitting here ready to test out and the mods done on the ecu for them.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (cdn20VALVE)*

If you can get ahold of one of the old A1 idle boost valves you should be able to wire it into a coolant temp switch...


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

Thanks for the replies. One more question... Why is it that we can't just use a ISV valve(DIGI II style) and have it wired as on/off. If we use a relay to power it, how can it fry the transistor in the MS ECU?


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

that's not a bad idea... would you need that for just start-up or could that be used for all idling purposes?


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (majic)*

I don't know about you guys, but I could definitely use it at cold start up. Hot idle is near perfect. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (cdn20VALVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cdn20VALVE* »_One more question... Why is it that we can't just use a ISV valve(DIGI II style) and have it wired as on/off. 

If your going to use this, why not use it right? Setup the ECU for PWM idle cantrol. It takes ten minutes and a few dollars worth of parts to run this valve. You set it up like the ford 2-wire.


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

*ECU pinout*

Does anyone know if the ECU pinout, the actual connector, is the same between OBD1 and OBD2? I want to go MS on my 95 ABA but it's the only car I have and if I run into probs I want to drop my stock ecu in. So my idea is to interface the MS into the factory plug of an ECU. If the OBD1 and OBD2 ECU connectors are physically the same then all I have to worry about is wiring, and can get any ecu out of the junk yard.
Just a note this is getting posted in a couple of forums.
thanks.


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## cdn20VALVE (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_
If your going to use this, why not use it right? Setup the ECU for PWM idle cantrol. It takes ten minutes and a few dollars worth of parts to run this valve. You set it up like the ford 2-wire.

Yeah I'll be doing this. Hopefully tonight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (cdn20VALVE)*

Check out the info here: http://megasquirt.sourceforge.....html
Hopefully that will help you out some. Don't forget to change the resistor on the ECU board. Also I HIGHLY recomend going to the your local Radio Shack and getting a desoldering iron to take the old parts out. You can do it with a regular iron, but cleaning the solder out of holes can be problematic. I burned the little via holes on my first attempt or two before I got the right gear.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

quick question...
i'm sure there is a lot of usefull information here, but is there any way to tidy it up a bit?
I don't have the time to sit at my computor and read more than thirty pages, and to print it off is almost 300 using VWVortex's magical prinable version button.
Or, would the website be able to clear up all the tuning and set-up questions I may have? I could probably print that out.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*

It depends on what you need to know. This thread covers a LOT of stuff from VW specific hardware setup to VW related questions. For tuning and more generic questions, go to the MSEFI sites. There is a clear and concise manual you can read through and print out if you wanted.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

Thanks, I took a look at that, but all the sections seem to be even longer than this thread.
not that that's a bad thing, but I just don't have the time to sit at the computer and read it all. Is there somewhere that lists a general overview of what is needed to run a turbocharged car on this system, and the basic how to wire everything up to work with each other?
I'd really appreciate it, I am trying to figure if I should do this to my corrado, or just keep modifying the stock Digi to not need a bunch of crap.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*

MegaManual
This is where everything your asking about is. This IS the summary your looking for. If you want a simpler way than to read through it, there are others out here who build kits and the like. And your out in the PNW, hit up Patatron at Bug Aid.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

thanks for that, I didn't know it was broken down so well, I just printed off the first couple sections to read at work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DGruber58 (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?...//****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]


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## 801pete (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: (DGruber58)*

Hey guys! 
Hey i just got a v3 megasquirt 1 that i'm setting up for MS&S-E using the VB921 on a 9a 16v thats all stock. 
I bought this unit from Jerry @ diyautotune. It came out of the box a standard MS. 
On his website he gives directions for converting it to a hall effect sensor input: 

" 
The MS130-C MegaSquirt-I PCBv3.0 is by default a fuel only EFI controller running B&G's default MegaSquirt firmware. These are configured to be triggered from the (-) negative terminal of the coil by default. 
It is fairly easy to convert them to be triggered from a Hall/Optical/Points trigger if you prefer. 
Here are the steps to take:
Cut out C12 and C30. Don't jumper them or anything, just clip the leads and leave them out. (Assembly steps 50h and 50d) 
Jumper D1. You can remove the diode first, but you don't have to. It's easier to just solder a little lead shorting both of it's legs together. 
" 

I followed those directions to a tee. I also emailed him about setting up the VB921 as I wanted to confirm what I was seeing on the MS&S-E site would work... He added that: 
" 
You ‘might’ need a 12v pullup on the ignition input. You’ll use a 1k ¼ wattresistor to do this and connect one end to the ignition input (pin 24) and the other end to the 12v power (pin28 works fine). 
" 
I have not done this yet... 
He suggested I follow the standard procedure outlined on the MS&S-E website for setting up the VB921- 330 ohm resistor, etc... 
Heres my problem: 
People keep telling me conflicting things to do with the hall setup. Some guys are saying to cut the xg1-xg2 jumper and add a couple new jumpers etc... On the other hand I have the mods i've ALREADY done as per jerry's directions.







What i'm trying to avoid is a situation where I have 2 halfway implemented different circuits, neither of which work properly. 
Can somebody make some sense of this for me? 
PS right now I have the hall sensor grounded to pin 7, +5v taken off the TPS Vref externally (both wires are soldered to that pin on the db37), and input into the standard pin24 or whatever it is. - Same setup as recommended on the MS&S-E site. 









P.P.S -> I also see numerous writeups and such on this page- around page 28 I think... However i'm unsure how these will react with the board mods I've already done. Not knowing how the circuit is supposed to work, that kinda leaves me in the dark. 


_Modified by 801pete at 6:32 PM 6-10-2006_


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## 801pete (Apr 20, 2006)

well I talked to aaron at euro nation last night and he got me squared away. I guess those caps are MS2 parts. So I performed the rest of the mods suggested here... 
Now i'm just waiting for a 16v auto throttle and a rail from BBM and I can wire & fire hopefully.


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## 801pete (Apr 20, 2006)

Car is running great








Gonna have to hit up the wb02 tommorow and that should be it for this project. Toss the keys back to the girlfriend. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Oh btw it started on the first crank, without the coolant temp or intake air temp sensors- the dizzy was just where it was before on motronic and default trigger angle - 60 degrees. I just guessed the injector size @ 20lb... It fired right up, VERY rich... haha
After I plugged in all the sensors, set up the throttle stop so it'd idle, set the timing, and then played with the injector size, the a/f smells "better" to my precision calibrated nose. 
Even with the fuel map totally untuned the throttle response and smoothness of the motor totally blows away the old CIS-motronic setup. No more missfires at idle- at least after I took soem fuel out lol. 
Thanks- 
Pete


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (801pete)*

back from the dead...
everywhere i go is another link to more stuff to read about MSnS...


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## higahardy (Feb 18, 2009)

*Re: (T3Bunny)*

So does this set work on 98 obd2 vr6? yes or no and on a scale of 1 to 10 how hard is it to do?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (higahardy)*

I've put MS on three 92's and my 95 two different times now, seems to work well. It's between a 5 and an 8 depending on what you plan to tackle on your own.


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