# You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*GROUND WIRES: HOW-TO GUIDE*
Here's what you'll need:
-a good 45-60 mins
-11ft of 4 or 8 awg copper power cables
-Knife
-Wire Cutter/Stripper Tool
-12 crimp connectors (openings around 5/16 or 3/8's will be fine)
-Pliers or something similar to crimp ends
-And the obvious socket set for the points you choose to use
















(4awg vs 8awg)
*Step One: Measure & Cut Wires*
What you're going to want to do is make sure you measure each wire by hand so that you'll have just the right amount of wire from each point. You do not want to leave alot of wire dangling around your engine compartment nor do you want to leave your wires too short. When measuring each, make sure you take in to concideration that you will be crimping on ends to the wires. 
For example: Here are some points that I chose to use:









*Step Two: Crimp on the ends*
This is pretty self explanitory. Everyone should know how to crimp on some ends. If your not sure how, send me an IM. I'll walk you through it. Here are my finished wires:








*Step Three: Grounding the Wires*
Ok, now its time to start grounding the wires. Above, was a brief ms paint job on where I have my grounding points. To this mod there are certain points that must be used. Here's a list of the points: 
-Passenger fender
-Driver fender
-Centralized point
-Point on the block
-Tranny grounding point
-Negative battery terminal
The following pictures are Hungalicious' ride with the points that I recommend:
*Ground Point One:* From fender to throttle body








*note* the black tap on the throttle body can me removed to give you extra thread if you are not going to be using your engine cover.
*Ground Point Two:* From throttle body to the central point near FPR.
**Caution** do not over tighten this bolt. It is very sensitive and easy to break.









*Ground Point Three:* From central point to negative terminal on the battery









*Ground Point Four* From central point to negative ground on tranny









*note* this picture does not show ground wires connected to it. But this is the point you'll use to connect two grounds. 
*Ground Point Five:* Negative ground on tranny to negative terminal on battery
(need picture)

*Ground Point Six:* Point from negative terminal on battery to point on chassis








*note* Hungalicious used the bolting point near the air box, but I would highly recommend the point on the inner fender. Same point used on passenger fender. Such as black2001aww did here:








Voila! Your done! Now go out and enjoy a cleaner radio, better throttle response, and some extra hp/tq!








*Note* 
My points that I used, Hungalicious, and Black2001aww, was recommended to me by some great local guys. You can add as many other points as you'd like. An example of an extra point is the coilpack ground that BlackAWW2001 used:








Now, although you can add as many extra points as you'd like, there are also some points that you cannot change, or not use. These points are:
-Tranny ground
-negative terminal
There are requirements to this mod that you must follow, but you are allowed to change the points. For example, you must have these points:
-Passenger fender
-Driver fender
-Central Point
-Point on block
These points are required but you can change the points. If you find a different bolt on the fenders that you want to try, go for it. Or if you find a better centralized point, try it out. Same for points on the block. These are points that you can experiment with, but you must have. 
Also, all these pictures can also be enlarged by adding .orig.jpg 
Enjoy! 



_Modified by Seanathan` at 8:59 PM 11-15-2003_


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Alright guys, I finished the guide. Thank you Hungalicious, Bug Power, Black2001aww, Chris86vw, Nessal, and JudoGTI for the great info and pictures. 
And as you can see, my only digital camera is my cellphone, so i'll soon have to get off my ass and meet up with Perfekt or Flyinturbo for use of their cameras











_Modified by Seanathan` at 8:42 PM 11-15-2003_


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## Nessal (Nov 24, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Thanks sean! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Nessal)*









Here's a better view of some of the grounding points. Thanks Nessal for the pic btw! Oh yeah, and disregard the yellow circle.http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Btw, I can take a picture of my engine bay if someone local has a digital camera


_Modified by Seanathan` at 11:23 PM 10-6-2003_


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## das Haupt (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I've got one.. just let me know when...
Oh, wait.. I guess I could just snap one of my cars FOR you?!


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AkVdub (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

how does this differ from the stock grounding points, and what benefit does it give....just wondering


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## 20vWolf (Jul 10, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (AkVdub)*

What gains in perfromance have you seen w/your setup compared to HKS's grounding system or this one from Hyper Ground which I posted about a while back http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=746039 ?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (FlyinTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FlyinTurbo* »_I've got one.. just let me know when...
Oh, wait.. I guess I could just snap one of my cars FOR you?!









lol. I guess you could. But it would be nice to finally put my car on here


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## Prefekt (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I'm sure between Greg and I, we could get a pic of your engine bay on here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Perfekt)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif so what about the gains? Better fuel economy, power, etc etc etc . . .


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (evilpat)*

For gains I have personally noticed better throttle response, a bit more torque, and about 50 extra miles per tank of gas. Like i said, i have them off now but i will be putting them back on and will use the Vag to see any differences.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Perfekt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Perfekt* »_I'm sure between Greg and I, we could get a pic of your engine bay on here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'll probably be heading to the Pavillions on Sat. Either of you guys going up at all?


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## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_For gains I have personally noticed better throttle response, a bit more torque, and about *50 extra miles per tank of gas.* Like i said, i have them off now but i will be putting them back on and will use the Vag to see any differences. 








That about convinces me . . . figure about $2 gallon over time = money saved to cover the mod and then some! Bump for more pics.


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## mzdaklr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (evilpat)*

I have no idea what this post is about, buy 50 mpt would be very nice. Please explain what you did.


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## Prefekt (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_I'll probably be heading to the Pavillions on Sat. Either of you guys going up at all?

I believe Saturday is the Globe drive, so unless we are all (don't think Greg is going) back in time for Pavs, we'd have to get together another time.


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## Juan8Tee (Jul 30, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Perfekt)*

I dont understand the concept behind this!
IN that picture on top with the Yellow lines and circles, are they suppose to represent? Mounting points to run wire to? (5-6)?
Is there a benefit to running more than one ground?
and 
Does the # of grounds have an exponantial effect on this mod?
Is this a good deal on these?








Red Heavy Duty Grounding Wire Kit, Universal Retail Price: $99.99
ON SALE NOW! $49.99
FREE SHIPPING 



_Modified by Juan8Tee at 3:32 PM 10-7-2003_


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (mzdaklr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mzdaklr* »_I have no idea what this post is about, buy 50 mpt would be very nice. Please explain what you did.

I am blissfully ignorant here too. What exactly are we doing? Re-grounding points in our engine?
Could you please explain this a little more in depth for idiots like me. Thx


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## Prefekt (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

Basically, more ground points equals stronger current equals bigger spark equals better burn equals benefits. Good for those looking for that last little bit of extra uumph.


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## turbo02gti (Feb 5, 2002)

What was your logic behind choosing the grounding points that you did? Also, is their any reason to think that this may cause a ground loop of some sort or do you have all termination points going to the same place as the battery ground?


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (turbo02gti)*

looks like the grounding points are all spots where the connector will easily screw onto. The points are nicely spread accross the engine. It really doesn't matter where they go, as long as it's metal. Technically, the whole engine is grounded anyway, but at one (or two) primary points. An engine block isn't exactly the greatest conductor, so grounding it all over the place just ensures a nice ground plane for anything requiring a 0V reference.
Ground loops? You're basically creating a much more solid ground plane accross your engine bay. Everything is connected back up to the neg terminal of the battery. A stronger ground point might also help with better radio reception too! 
edit:
Juan8Tee -- looks a little expensive for wires and connectors, but on the plus side it looks nice and no soldering is required. It's not an "exponential" difference with the # of grounds. You're just preventing the ground ("0V source") from floating (ie. becoming slightly higher than 0V) on different points of your engine.
how much of a difference will it make? Who knows. You might not even notice it...but as far as electronics and maximizing difference of the voltage potentials accross your engine bay (0V and 12-ish V) the more grounds the better! 


_Modified by flanders at 9:11 PM 10-7-2003_


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## b0mbasaur (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*

heres another stupid question but where does the other end of the wire tap to?like i know one end goes to one of those circcled points but where does that connect to? sorry for the noobie question


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## lenswerks (Nov 6, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (b0mbasaur)*


_Quote, originally posted by *b0mbasaur* »_heres another stupid question but where does the other end of the wire tap to?like i know one end goes to one of those circcled points but where does that connect to? sorry for the noobie question









They are daisy chained, start with 2 cables from negative terminal ( the kits come with a terminal adapter), one going to chassis and the other to the first grounding point. No particular order - intake manifold, head, block, transmission and the opposite shock tower. The gains can vary depending on where you attach. Also, the gains are greater for a car with mods, than for a car with no mods - In other words, with a good grounding system, your car is better able to utilize the mods you have done.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (lenswerks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lenswerks* »_
They are daisy chained, start with 2 cables from negative terminal ( the kits come with a terminal adapter), one going to chassis and the other to the first grounding point. No particular order - intake manifold, head, block, transmission and the opposite shock tower. The gains can vary depending on where you attach. Also, the gains are greater for a car with mods, than for a car with no mods - In other words, with a good grounding system, your car is better able to utilize the mods you have done. 

Exactly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif There are two points that are pretty much a must. One being the negative terminal, and two being the tranny ground point. But you can ground it wherever you wish. Basically on somewhere that is metal. I chose these points because a couple of local guys recommended me these places. I have not messed around with other points, so you guys feel free.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Juan8Tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Juan8Tee* »_
IN that picture on top with the Yellow lines and circles, are they suppose to represent? Mounting points to run wire to? (5-6)?

lol.. between 1-6 that is how many wires you'll need. People were asking me how many wires, and I figured people can could circles, but might get confused on all the lines going every which way. I would recommend enlarging the pictures so that you can see the points better.









_Quote, originally posted by *Juan8Tee* »_
Is this a good deal on these?








Red Heavy Duty Grounding Wire Kit, Universal Retail Price: $99.99
ON SALE NOW! $49.99
FREE SHIPPING 

50 bucks isn't _that_ bad. But they can be made for less than 30 bucks. Also, I originally was ignorant when I bought these and wasn't sure what the hell they were exactly made out of, and what was involved, etc. So I spent 100 bucks when i bought them, and that pretty much seems to be the universal price. 
Btw, thank you to the guy who I bought them from, you helped me at the Pavillions figure out what the hell i was doing, and for the extra help.







But now I know the secret behind them








Edit: Make sure you get copper wires if you plan on making them yourself. Tomorrow I will be making some new ones, basically because I cannot stand the color I originally got







. So I will post tomorrrow how to make these yourself. 


_Modified by Seanathan` at 9:19 PM 10-7-2003_


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I'd like to see a pic of it wired up. It seems to me like it would look cluttered under the hood?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_I'd like to see a pic of it wired up. It seems to me like it would look cluttered under the hood?










Ahh, I don't think its that bad. I had some baby blue originally, and thats out. So now i'm getting black. But my bay isn't for a show anyway, so it doesn't bother me. As soon as I can get a digi from Perfekt or FlyinTurbo, I'll post some pics too.


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

currently I went from my motor mount (on the chassis) on the passenger side, to the head->to the block-> Intake Manifold -> Couldn't find where the ground wire was on the Tranny-> then the Negative battery terminal?


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## EliteDubs (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*

let me see if i got this right. 
take 6 wires of 6 or 8 gauge. start at the neg. on the battery and jump off to the driver side strut tower, then go from the neg. on the battery to the tranny and then to the intake, head and then to the passenager strut tower. i think i missed one............am i close here? 
Anthony


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (vwpassatboy)*

One I would add one I would change.
I would make the valve cover one go to the ground on the coil pack harness, just to reinforce it directly at the source.
I would also add one from the alternator housing to the chassis, this has been known to clean up running issues on older cars like G60s.


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (mzdaklr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mzdaklr* »_I have no idea what this post is about, buy 50 mpt would be very nice. Please explain what you did.

How in the world did you get 50mpt more from doing this??
That is a huge improvment.
(That would put me back where i was before my MPG went to hell.)
Edit: Would a bad ground result in poorer gas mileage?


_Modified by 3wheelinWolf at 10:41 AM 10-8-2003_


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

If we were going to make these ourselves (which I recommend everyone do, instead of buying them) what composite solder should we use? 
I've never soldered such heavy gauge wire before. Thx. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_If we were going to make these ourselves (which I recommend everyone do, instead of buying them) what composite solder should we use? 
I've never soldered such heavy gauge wire before. Thx. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Just use high quality crimp terminals from a stereo shop, it will be a much better connection.


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
Just use high quality crimp terminals from a stereo shop, it will be a much better connection.

Well I know you have argued this quite a bit before, but I was reading this:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forum....html
And it states 

_Quote »_Instead of the ends being crimped, soldered ends allow more better current, strength, and longevity.

So....















EDIT: It probably doesnt really matter since it's only extra grounding. Where would I find the high quality heavy gauge crimps? Car stereo store?


_Modified by judoGTI at 9:56 AM 10-8-2003_


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

...it all depends if you know how to solder. A crappy cold solder joint will be a horrid connection after a few thermal cycles...


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*


_Quote »_"Instead of the ends being crimped, soldered ends allow more better current, strength, and longevity."

soldered connections tend to be very inconsistant and have higher resistance then crimped connections, which means less current. It also means that there will be more heat at the joint, which degrades the connections over time, so that throws out the strength and longetivity point. A crimped connection will offer less reistance, because more of the individual strands are incontact directly to the connector, unlike fewer strands in contact through solder to the connector.
You solder if you like but I'll stick with crimped connectors just like all the auto makers do.
Last time this came up I did a quick search and a majority of the results said crimped was better then solder for all the reasons I stated and more. I also read somethign recently on the matter, but cant' recall where I read it.


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## rawlmark (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
but I'll stick with crimped connectors just like all the auto makers do.



First hand knowledge, use crimped connections. In my experiences it's the only way to go http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=671436


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*

I noticed when hooking up continuity from the chassis to the head...my readings were .027 Block.... was .016 Intake Manifold Was .014.

All of them went down to .008 solid and steady after the grounding wires.


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

I priced out some 8 gauge high-strand high quality grounding wire from Sound Waves, as well as 8 gauge gold crimp connectors and the total cost came to about $42. This included 11' of cable, and 10 connectors (boxes of 2).
I bought 11 feet, because the grounding kit comes with about 10.3 feet.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
soldered connections tend to be very inconsistant and have higher resistance then crimped connections, which means less current. It also means that there will be more heat at the joint, which degrades the connections over time, so that throws out the strength and longetivity point. A crimped connection will offer less reistance, because more of the individual strands are incontact directly to the connector, unlike fewer strands in contact through solder to the connector.
You solder if you like but I'll stick with crimped connectors just like all the auto makers do.
Last time this came up I did a quick search and a majority of the results said crimped was better then solder for all the reasons I stated and more. I also read somethign recently on the matter, but cant' recall where I read it.

Chris is right in this, and also the coilpack groundout, and the alternator would be worth checking out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm heading to Ultimate Electronics right now to do this. Look for a FULL write up later on tonight. ahhemm Greg or Dave are you guys available tonight for camera usage? lol....


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## Prefekt (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I should be. You're welcome to give me a shout. I should be available after 4p.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

Also, another important factor in the wires is that you need to have a central point in which all wires meet. In my case this was point Number 3. Notice how they all pretty much branch off from there.


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## swett (Jun 28, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_I noticed when hooking up continuity from the chassis to the head...my readings were .027 Block.... was .016 Intake Manifold Was .014.

All of them went down to .008 solid and steady after the grounding wires.

Nicely done. This may be the first numerical evidence that these wires are doing anything. If head to chassis is .027, then that could make a small but noticable difference in the spark strength. I would think the head would be the most important thing to ground anyway. 
-Ian


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_I noticed when hooking up continuity from the chassis to the head...my readings were .027 Block.... was .016 Intake Manifold Was .014.

All of them went down to .008 solid and steady after the grounding wires.

Thats real good info, thanks rodney.
I had picked up some wire back in the spring to do this, I did a few other things and wanted to see how they worked out just by themselves so never put it (I since used the wire for the stereo in my jeep) I'll try and pick some more up this weekend and see what results I get.


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_I noticed when hooking up continuity from the chassis to the head...my readings were .027 Block.... was .016 Intake Manifold Was .014.

All of them went down to .008 solid and steady after the grounding wires.

beauty. Now _that's_ some good info. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BikeBoy24 (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*

Would this solve the dimming lights issue? I notice that whenever I try to roll up my windows (when they're already up), the lights dim for a second, and then return to normal.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (BikeBoy24)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BikeBoy24* »_Would this solve the dimming lights issue? I notice that whenever I try to roll up my windows (when they're already up), the lights dim for a second, and then return to normal.

more then likely no that will fix that issue, posibly a better ground at the alternator may. Directly wirign your lights to the battery with relays should help that problem along with increasing your light output so its just a good idea anyway


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

haven't wired the alt yet, but no the lights still dim. I only have 2 of the wires hooked up so far, and I can't find anywhere on the engine that has less then a .08 (and I'm looking everywhere) on the multimeter. I plan on hitting the Battery Ground, Alt, and Transmission. Those are just a PITA to get to on the NB. I'll probably finish up when I pull the motor out of the car.


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## pansyboy8 (May 20, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Chris is right in this, and also the coilpack groundout, and the alternator would be worth checking out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm heading to Ultimate Electronics right now to do this. Look for a FULL write up later on tonight. ahhemm Greg or Dave are you guys available tonight for camera usage? lol....


any updates?!?! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*


_Quote »_...it all depends if you know how to solder.

True...and if you do a marginal solder job, you can get all kinds of statistical results showing crimping is better than soldering







. Largest wire I've ever soldered together was an A2 ignition switch wire (about ~12ga)...







It was 4 yrs ago and my bro. still drives it to work every day. You can't use an ordinary soldering iron with wire this large and expect acceptable results...you'll have to borrow something from work that resembles a cattle prod







.
_The reason VW doesn't allow soldered joints is because it was much cheaper to design a crimp repair kit that is "mistake-proof". Lotsa ways to make mistakes when soldering._
Only other suggestion I'd make is to run all the ground wiring in *parallel* (all ground wires connect at negative battery terminal). That way if anything happens to one wire, the other ground points aren't affected. With ground points in *series*, you'll lose every ground point downstream of the wire break (should you ever have one).


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## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Electron Man)*

Any updates on the write up Seanathan??
TTT


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Electron Man)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Electron Man* »_
_The reason VW doesn't allow soldered joints is because it was much cheaper to design a crimp repair kit that is "mistake-proof". Lotsa ways to make mistakes when soldering._


I laugh everytime I read that statement because anyone I have talked to swears they can solder well but can't crimp if their life depended on it. So there really is no logic in this. 
Any of the tests I have read were done by professionals. They tested both soldered and crimped joints. The soldered joints has very irregular resistances, while the crimped were consistant. They soldered joints were also proven to fail and/or cause more resistance over numerous heat cylces then crimped connections. And crimped connections have also been proven to stand up longer in environments subject to vibrations, gee would that be a car by any chance.
And if you are saying that they do it becuase the end user would not be skilled enough to make a proper solder connection, then why is it that any manufacture that I know of right now uses only crimped connections on the assemly line. I dont' think I have ever looked at a cars wirign harness and seen a sodler connection.


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

man I finished up my Grounding kit today. Basically. 1 wire to the passenger side motor mount. I've got two screws that come out of there. One wire goes from there to the Head...then the head to the main grounding point that I made on the intake manifold. From the top of the intake manifold I go down to the Tranny/Battery Neg Connection, then to the battery connection on the frame under the battery tray. At the shop when testing Most ANY point I could find on the head the resistance was .001














If it stops raining down here I'll take some pictures...it's not too pretty, but it workes damn well. I do think I gained some throttle response for some reason...possibly hotter spark.....


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## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*

Great Rodney, keep us posted . . . whats this about coilpack elimination . . .


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## little p (Apr 29, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_man I finished up my Grounding kit today. Basically. 1 wire to the passenger side motor mount. I've got two screws that come out of there. One wire goes from there to the Head...then the head to the main grounding point that I made on the intake manifold. From the top of the intake manifold I go down to the Tranny/Battery Neg Connection, then to the battery connection on the frame under the battery tray. At the shop when testing Most ANY point I could find on the head the resistance was .001














If it stops raining down here I'll take some pictures...it's not too pretty, but it workes damn well. I do think I gained some throttle response for some reason...possibly hotter spark.....


Please blast off some shots of this...I am fairly clear on the concept here but the actual physical install is a bit foggy. I am a visual person. One good photo can clear up things for me better than 2000 pages of written description. 
Thanks, I am eager to see this thing.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*

For those who are making their own... What did you use to connect it to the negative terminal? I'd like to run mine all in parallel to the terminal, but have no idea what or where to get a good piece of metal that I can hook up there.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (evilpat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evilpat* »_Any updates on the write up Seanathan??



Sorry guys I haven't gotten around to it. The day I was going to do the writeup I ended up spending 200 dollars to get my laptop working again, and then I spent another 200 bucks getting a spare K03 from a local guy







. So The ground wires were pushed back a day or two. But tomorrow (friday) before work I will work on the writeup.


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_I laugh everytime I read that statement because anyone I have talked to swears they can solder well but can't crimp if their life depended on it. So there really is no logic in this.

When you mistake proof something, logic doesn't have to be involved...just the cheapest, fastest (but not necessarily the best) way to get the job done without error. Too bad VW doesn't offer a solder kit to make wiring harness repairs







. 

_Quote »_The soldered joints has very irregular resistances, while the crimped were consistant.

A soldered joint will have the same resistance as a crimped joint. If the resistance is higher, something wasn't done properly.

_Quote »_They soldered joints were also proven to fail and/or cause more resistance over numerous heat cylces then crimped connections.

If a broken wire has so much current going through that it heats up, it probably needs to be larger or replaced entirely. Crimping won't stop it from getting hot







.

_Quote »_And if you are saying that they do it becuase the end user would not be skilled enough to make a proper solder connection...

I'll admit that it takes much less time ($$$) to train a technician to crimp a wire...also takes less time to actually crimp it.

_Quote »_...then why is it that any manufacture that I know of right now uses only crimped connections on the assemly line.

Again because crimping is cheaper (usually comes back to saving $$$ when VW is involved)...sometimes what is best on the assembly line isn't necessarily best for every user...(your 1.8T still stock?







)
Crimping leaves void space where oxidation can occur within the splice. No void space when soldering, if done properly. However, I'd expect you to call me a lunatic if I tried to solder the end of a wire into a ring terminal







...crimping has its place here (wire termination).
Friday







for everyone.


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Electron Man)*

While I agree a solder joint is nice its not for ALL APPLICATIONS. Go try to solder the wiring on Aircraft and watch your IA jump in your azz!


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (MRP2001GTi)*

I'm off to audio shops to get the needed supplies. I'll post when completed. Pics and all..


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## TurboZen (Oct 15, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

Could this mod actually save some MAF's from failure? Isn't bad grounding the problem with the MAF going bad?
Great thread BTW


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TurboZen)*

I'm working on this right now as you guys type


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Pick your poison...








I bought 4 gauge and 8 gauge to jack around with. I think 4 gauge is a little overkill but I like it. I tried getting terminals in bulk quantity but they only sold them in packs of two. They were going for $5 per pack. I guess I will have to buy the rest of the stuff online.








Anyway I hope this thread continues and does prove the haters from other grounding/earthing threads that they were wrong about it being fluff and snakeoil. You guys know who you are.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

Hey Hungalicious thanks for the pics! I'm going to have some pics up here later, but unfortunately its time for me to head into work now..(late shift tonight). I was able to cut all the wires and crimp the ends, but I'm out of time for tonight. Here's some quick info on what I used so far:
4 gauge monster cables -11ft $2.50/ft
Crimp-type Power ring terminals - 12 crimps $3.95/set (6 boxes) 5/16"s and 3/8"s opening
I purchased everything at Ultimate Electronics and the total was a little over 50 bucks. Now remember, thats for 4gauge. My friend used 6 gauge and spent a total of 20 bucks from Tweeter. So the choice is yours. Now all i need is time to install these










_Modified by Seanathan` at 4:56 PM 10-10-2003_


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## 81dollar (Jun 16, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

good info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i'd like to see some more pics, if possible...


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Electron Man)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Electron Man* »_
When you mistake proof something, logic doesn't have to be involved...just the cheapest, fastest (but not necessarily the best) way to get the job done without error. Too bad VW doesn't offer a solder kit to make wiring harness repairs







. 
A soldered joint will have the same resistance as a crimped joint. If the resistance is higher, something wasn't done properly.
If a broken wire has so much current going through that it heats up, it probably needs to be larger or replaced entirely. Crimping won't stop it from getting hot







.
I'll admit that it takes much less time ($$$) to train a technician to crimp a wire...also takes less time to actually crimp it.
Again because crimping is cheaper (usually comes back to saving $$$ when VW is involved)...sometimes what is best on the assembly line isn't necessarily best for every user...(your 1.8T still stock?







)
Crimping leaves void space where oxidation can occur within the splice. No void space when soldering, if done properly. However, I'd expect you to call me a lunatic if I tried to solder the end of a wire into a ring terminal







...crimping has its place here (wire termination).
Friday







for everyone.









Ok I had commened on each part but my window randomly closed as I was finishing up and I am late for somethign so I cant' retype it all now.
Anyway, in a word you are wrong. You have provided no legit reason why a solder joint would be better other then its cheaper. Well gues what go to the dealer and price a crimp connection and you'll see that infact is is much more expensive for VW to pay for crimps in warranty work then train people to solder.
solder connections are more brittle even when done right and create a much greater stress point then a crimped connection
soldered joints do not make as good of an electrical connection, the physical nature of the contact between the wires causes a greater resistance.
And lets get back to the guy who brought up uses in avaiation. If a soldered connection really was better dont' you think that they would use them in a place where its a matter of life or death, they train those guys to do everything perfect, now why would they use crimping is it was inferior to soldering, just like automanufactures do in initial build and in repair.


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## v8282w (May 13, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

who cares if you solder it or not. can we get on with the thread. those of you who have hooked this up recently, is it worth the time?


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (v8282w)*


_Quote, originally posted by *v8282w* »_who cares if you solder it or not. can we get on with the thread. those of you who have hooked this up recently, is it worth the time? 

If you dont care about soldering or not then why are you even going to bother doing this mod.
Soldering increases resistance at a connection compared to a crimped connection. the point of this mod is to reduce as much resistance in the grounding system as possible. So tell me again why this doesn't matter????


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## TurboZen (Oct 15, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

I'd use crimps cause it's easier and cheaper, and I don't have a soldering iron big enough to do that gauge of wire. That being said.
In the rc car world, there is no substitute for soldered joints versus any other kind of connector. All other methods have more resistance than high quality solder jobs. If they were to solder everything in your engine, it would bring up the cost quite a bit because of the silver content of the solder. besides, if you were going to solder, you shouldn't use connectors at all. Solder directly to the contacts.


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## TurboZen (Oct 15, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TurboZen)*

I've done some more research and it looks like the best setup is welding, then cold welding (crimps) then.... solder.
whose done the mod so far and let's see some more pictures. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rawlmark (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TurboZen)*

I was talking to a friend today at the track, and he said something about "Over Grounding" can cause problems. Is it possible to provide too much grounding? Also, are there any points (or components) that we shouldn't ground? When I bought the stuff for my stereo, I bought extra 0/1 Gauge wire to ground my Battery and Altinator with. Now I'm wondering if it's possible to provide too much ground and actually end up hurting performance. 
I have 0/1 gauge power and ground for my amps. I haven't grounded the Battery or Altimator yet, and I have a horific whine when the Cooling Fan kicks in. Should I try to ground the fan, Alt, Bat, or all of them?


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## turbomadman (May 2, 2003)

bmp for overgrounding.


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## v8282w (May 13, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
If you dont care about soldering or not then why are you even going to bother doing this mod.
Soldering increases resistance at a connection compared to a crimped connection. the point of this mod is to reduce as much resistance in the grounding system as possible. So tell me again why this doesn't matter????
 i wasnt planning on doing the mod, i was just trying to stop two children from turning this post into a waste of bandwidth. you cant argue with people that are never wrong. btw the nifty poster of the retarded kid in the special olympics would come in handy right about now.


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (v8282w)*

Lets get some testing procedures. So we can see where the best grounds are. Like put + multimeter here, and neg here. That way we can compare what's going on.


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*

I finished the project tonight. Here are the install pics. I used Seanathan`s connection points.
I half-assed the install but it turned out really well. Now I need to do some testing. You up for it Rodney?
Here's the first cable..








The second starts from the end of the first to the "junction". This cable runs across the manifold as you can see..








The third cable runs from the "junction" down to a connection point down in the bay. Where I have it appears to be connected to the tranny. Correct me if I am wrong...








The forth cable also goes from the "junction" to the negative terminal..








The fifth goes from the negative terminal to the chassis. I bolted it down under the bolt that holds the airbox down..








I am currently missing one other cable. This is from Tranny to negative terminal. This will be done tomorrow because I forgot about it.
Here is the setup from Left to right..


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## JLMax16 (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

Doesn't electricity always follow the path of least resistance? As in, it's going to travel the shortest distance possible, due to longer wires taking a lot more energy to get to the end of? I'd think that the Shortest, thickest wire, would be the one doing all the grounding and the other ones don't get much, if any, current. All you electrical engineers better help me understand this better.


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## Dr. Edlocks (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_Just use high quality crimp terminals from a stereo shop, it will be a much better connection.


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_Where would I find the high quality heavy gauge crimps? Car stereo store?



_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_Just use high quality crimp terminals from a stereo shop, it will be a much better connection.


Or you could try some high quality terminals from a shop that sells stereos.


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## wsaenotsock (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

Nice pics hung. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I think I'll order some black 4 or 8 gauge and try this out soon. What about grounding the alternater since that's where all the power comes from?


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## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wsaenotsock)*

I'm picking this stuff up today as well. So which is it 4 or 8 guage?


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## iae21 (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (black2001aww)*

Yes, very interested as well!!


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## wsaenotsock (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (black2001aww)*

I don't think you'll see a huge difference between 4 and 8. I think the HKS kit uses 8 just because of that reason. So if they are about the same, then use 8 since it's cheaper and lighter.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (v8282w)*


_Quote, originally posted by *v8282w* »_ i wasnt planning on doing the mod, i was just trying to stop two children from turning this post into a waste of bandwidth. .


So a discussion of important factors of this mod is a waste of bandwidth but posting useless cryiing about soemthing you dont' even care to do is perfectly acceptable
The point of this mod is ot get the cleanest possible grounds, if there is one way that is better to do this then that is very important, and not a waste of bandwidth to discuss, that woulld be your post.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TurboZen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboZen* »_
In the rc car world, there is no substitute for soldered joints versus any other kind of connector. All other methods have more resistance than high quality solder jobs. If they were to solder everything in your engine, it would bring up the cost quite a bit because of the silver content of the solder. besides, if you were going to solder, you shouldn't use connectors at all. Solder directly to the contacts.

The R/C world cannot really be used as a comparison here. There is ot enough room to use connectors that is the main reason why . If you were joining two wires then the crimped conection would be better. Direct contacts to say a motor if we are talking electrical cars there is no room for a crimped connection in most cars so soldering would be better, becaus of packaging not because of actual better performance.


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## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

Gotta love productive threads... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ECAPOX (May 15, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (v8282w)*

"the nifty poster of the retarded kid in the special olympics would come in handy right about now." 
You mean ROGER? Oh, sorry. He was busy in the back with his flashcards.


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## snarbles (Aug 19, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (ECAPOX)*

Yes, excellent pics Hung. Very interesting topic http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (snarbles)*

FYI...I crimped all my connections. Well I actually hammered. I didn't have any pliers capable of squeezing the 4 gauge terminals onto the wire so I just squashed them with a hammer. Worked just fine and the terminals are stuck on there pretty good. It has good metal to metal contact.


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## FreeStage3 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

i picked up some 4 guage Monster Cable at Tweeter for $2.00 ft. i also picked up some crimp style ends from Home Depot for $1.19 each. Home Depot had them in the electrical Zip Tie area. 
regarding the attachment points. why do you go to the passenger fender and then accross the manifold, attach again and then to another point. my question is why bother attaching to the fender in the first place?


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## wsaenotsock (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (FreeStage3)*

Thanks Matt for the info today. I bought some 4 gauge Monster Cable at Hifi Buys just now for $2 a ft. It came in black too!







I was afraid they would have it neon green or something. Stopped at Home Depot but didn't like the terminal ends they had. The 4 gauge ends were bright yellow, so I'll probably pick some up online or something.


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## G-Shock (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wsaenotsock)*

Great topic, now I have a reason to use my old 4 guage wire


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (G-Shock)*

I'll probably end up redoing everything later to have a cleaner look. You gotta start somewhere.


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## FreeStage3 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wsaenotsock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wsaenotsock* »_The 4 gauge ends were bright yellow, so I'll probably pick some up online or something. 

you were in the wrong section. there are some plain end crimp connectors in the heavy duty electrical section. i got the black monster cable also. 
Hung, what about my previous question. why double ground the intake manifold?
advise,
matt


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## wsaenotsock (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (FreeStage3)*

I think I saw those, by the zip ties that were $1.19 a piece? I might go back and get those after we figure out how many grounds we need exactly.


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## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wsaenotsock)*

A friend of mine at Circuit City hooked me up with 15' of 8 guage silver wire and about 15 gold connectors. I'm going to do this one tommorrow afternoon with the addition of one wore going to ground for the coils on the top of the head. Going to try to hide everything as well, or at least run it along factory paths. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks for the free mod idea (well free for me anyway).


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (FreeStage3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FreeStage3* »_
regarding the attachment points. why do you go to the passenger fender and then accross the manifold, attach again and then to another point. my question is why bother attaching to the fender in the first place?

Yeah if everything is wiring parallel to the negative terminal on the battery do you need to ground it to the chassis/fender? Or is it just for extra grounding?


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (FreeStage3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FreeStage3* »_
you were in the wrong section. there are some plain end crimp connectors in the heavy duty electrical section. i got the black monster cable also. 
Hung, what about my previous question. why double ground the intake manifold?
advise,
matt


I really don't know. I was just following the points from the very first post. If we all decide on something better, I will follow.


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## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

I see no problems with double wiring the intake manifold, especially where my reason in doing this is to maximize my ignition system. I'm going to add an additional line from the ground on the valve cover that the coils go to to intake manifold hoping to supersede any problems of spark slowing current through gaskets (i.e.: head gasket and intake gasket.) Nothing wrong with a little precautionary measures, as long as you don't over-do it spider web style.


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (black2001aww)*

The more grounds the merrier!! Although you're going to reach a point where adding more and more really doesn't make much of a difference







Plus, it's gonna start looking like butt with all those wires. I think I'll be using 8 gauge wire, just because it's easier to hide away (and it's not really going to make a difference, 4 vs 8)
hung's points are great -- although (as mentioned above) a good one would be at the coilpacks (there's a ground point for the coils right in the middle of the valve cover) and the alternator (although it's a bit tricker to get at!).
Great post! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_The more grounds the merrier!! Although you're going to reach a point where adding more and more really doesn't make much of a difference







Plus, it's gonna start looking like butt with all those wires. I think I'll be using 8 gauge wire, just because it's easier to hide away (and it's not really going to make a difference, 4 vs 8)
hung's points are great -- although (as mentioned above) a good one would be at the coilpacks (there's a ground point for the coils right in the middle of the valve cover) and the alternator (although it's a bit tricker to get at!).
Great post! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Don't thank me, thank Seanathan. He posted the ground points. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

Okay woah! Lots of questions. Sucks that I had to work, but I'm glad Hungalicious got around to taking some pictures. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif But first, the whole point behind grounding on each side of the fender is because you want to create a constant ground from each side of the chassis. 
Second, the whole point behind doubling the intake manifold is because you in essence want to "leap frog" the wires. Thats why you double the intake manifold. Thats also why you have a central meeting point. 
Also, there points are where I was originally told to do. So there probably ARE better points. 
Also, I believe 4awg cable is the best bet. Thats what i'm using. But if someone's going to use 8awg, then do some testing to so how it works. I know either myself or Hungalicious will be doing testing with 4. 


_Modified by Seanathan` at 9:07 PM 10-12-2003_


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hungalicious* »_ 











Also, this isn't the tranny grounding point. You need to keep following that wire down to the tranny, and connect there.


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## v8282w (May 13, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

good job dude, i like the way the red matches the car . looks sick http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif have you noticed any difference? as far as my buddy chris goes... im leavin it alone. if any of yall really care if solder or crimping conducts electric better, then take a mutimeter to it and find out yourself. you need to check resistance/ohms. that setting usually has what looks like headphones on the meter. kinda like this: .(). the digital ones would work good for this. i got mine from radio shack for $20 its a fold up one and its pretty sturdy. i have dropped mine a bunch of times with out problems. solder 'might' crack over time if you dont sand down all contacts and if you dont use a good flux. also the kind of solder you use also makes a difference in conductivity. this is were the technique part of soldering comes into play.


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## v8282w (May 13, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (ECAPOX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ECAPOX* »_"the nifty poster of the retarded kid in the special olympics would come in handy right about now." 
You mean ROGER? Oh, sorry. He was busy in the back with his flashcards.









 lol, sick mofo


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Also, this isn't the tranny grounding point. You need to keep following that wire down to the tranny, and connect there.









At least I thought it connected to the tranny. Oh well. I couldn't really tell. Back to the drawing board..


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## turbomadman (May 2, 2003)

anyone know where to buy crimp connectors online?


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: (turbomadman)*

There are tons of places I found. Haven't ordered from any. Best bet would be to search for car audio installation.


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## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: (turbomadman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbomadman* »_anyone know where to buy crimp connectors online?

A good place to start is http://www.sounddomain.com lists a lot of different brands


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## turbomadman (May 2, 2003)

yeah i saw those but theyre pretty steep. im a cheap skate.


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (evilpat)*

A good place to start is http://www.sounddomain.com lists a lot of different brands[/QUOTE]
16 feet of Phoenix Gold 8 gauge wire, and 12 terminals for ~ 32 bucks. Not bad.


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## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: (turbomadman)*

Go to Wal-Mart. Look hanging on the battery tower. Lots of crimps, ring terminals (8, 6, 4, 2 awg), and even pre-made grounding wires with terminals there. All copper.
Now you guys please leave me some!










_Modified by Super1.8T at 12:45 PM 10-13-2003_


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## Carphuntin_god (Jun 5, 2000)

*Still working on the 50 mpt*

K, I know what you're doing. I vaguely understand why it should help the car. But picking up 50 miles a tank? That just seems to push it a bit.
Using my bug for comparison...it's a 14.5 gal tank, and I get roughly 28 mpg now. So, tank full gives me 406 miles (with perfect weather, etc.) If I could pull off 50 mpt more, my overall mileage would move to 31.45 mpg (math majors tell me if I bunged that up).
Call me a skeptic...but man I find it hard to believe this kind of mod could really bump the mileage like that. (and no, I'm not saying you're fibbing, just wondering if some other change at the same time could have been the real cause for the mileage jump).
Rodney and Hung...have you seen the same kind of inc. in mileage?


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## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Carphuntin_god)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Carphuntin_god* »_K, I know what you're doing. I vaguely understand why it should help the car. But picking up 50 miles a tank? That just seems to push it a bit.
Using my bug for comparison...it's a 14.5 gal tank, and I get roughly 28 mpg now. So, tank full gives me 406 miles (with perfect weather, etc.) If I could pull off 50 mpt more, my overall mileage would move to 31.45 mpg (math majors tell me if I bunged that up).
Call me a skeptic...but man I find it hard to believe this kind of mod could really bump the mileage like that. (and no, I'm not saying you're fibbing, just wondering if some other change at the same time could have been the real cause for the mileage jump).
Rodney and Hung...have you seen the same kind of inc. in mileage?

It is quite possible that the mileage increase of 50 mpg is due to the fact that he was getting crappy mileage before because of a problem that was corrected by grounding. Tha means that the increase that you see may be minute in comparison. Personally my car never sees anywhere near 28 mpg.


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## Carphuntin_god (Jun 5, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (evilpat)*

To be fair, my car ranges from 25.somethng up to 30. For me...it's all entirely dependent on ambient air temperature. Temp gets above 80, hello better mpg.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Carphuntin_god)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Carphuntin_god* »_To be fair, my car ranges from 25.somethng up to 30. For me...it's all entirely dependent on ambient air temperature. Temp gets above 80, hello better mpg.

Really? That's odd mine gets better when its cooler.







Ahh well though, I can see such an improvement. I got 40 more miles per tank with the power gasket. so 50 with this isn't out of reach.


_Modified by judoGTI at 1:01 PM 10-13-2003_


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt*

I stole this pic from Nebulight, but is the nut in the middle of the coilpacks the coilpack ground?


----------



## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (judoGTI)*

Yes it is and I did my grounding project tonight, picks in the AM. I grounded all points HUNG did with the addition of the coilpack one and on the battery I went over to the fender instead of down. Feels like top end pulls pretty nicely (ie no misfires). So far so good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (black2001aww)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for this thread. 30 bux cant go wrong. I wonder if the original thread starter has some stock in a cabling/wiring company....


----------



## Juan8Tee (Jul 30, 2003)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (black2001aww)*

Isnt the idea of this, to have one grounding point for all the ground wires to meet up?
I looked at the HKS kit and it shows a circular disc, with 5-8 mounting points for indivudal ground wires and one mount to mount to the battery?
It seems like all your doing is bridging your ground wire over 5 different spots?


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

Video on it's way with testing....


----------



## Pope1 (Dec 21, 2002)

A couple of basic questions to all those who've done the mod themselves.
Is 12 ft enough to make all the necessary connections?
What size hole is required in the connectors that go on the ends of the wires?
I'm in the UK and want to purchase some before I go home. My choices seem to be 5mm and 8mm for the connectors.


----------



## stvo (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (ECAPOX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ECAPOX* »_"the nifty poster of the retarded kid in the special olympics would come in handy right about now." 
You mean ROGER? Oh, sorry. He was busy in the back with his flashcards.










There is something wrong with you. Thats messed up.


----------



## Knife_Fighting_Monkey (Jan 3, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (stvo)*

Ha...I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head...
BTW, I do have the special olympics one too...just not a place to post it (damn my geocities site).


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Knife_Fighting_Monkey)*

bump for some more testing and info.


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (black2001aww)*


_Quote, originally posted by *black2001aww* »_Yes it is and I did my grounding project tonight, picks in the AM. I grounded all points HUNG did with the addition of the coilpack one and on the battery I went over to the fender instead of down. Feels like top end pulls pretty nicely (ie no misfires). So far so good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

How those pics coming . . .


----------



## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (evilpat)*

Oh yeah, sorry man. Just snapped them in the 53' F weather for you.
They stay hidden pretty well...








Left fender to intake manifold...








Intake manifold to coils...








Left side of intake to right side of intake. And then one going down to tranny point and one over to the negative terminal on the battery...








And one from the negative terminal to the right fender...








Good cheap mod, took about 45 minutes taking my time. 8 gauge silver wire with gold connectors purchased (or donated by ) Circuit City... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (black2001aww)*

anyone know a better way to compress these video's I'm doing. I mean I have a 4 minute video that's 57 megs. Jesus! Uploading now for broadband Texers.


----------



## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Bug_Power)*

taggin this post, if this is giving 50 mpt i have to get this done


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (mjmi11er)*

56k beware!
http://www.redpepper.cc/dubspe...g.mpg


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Bug_Power)*

Bug Power - Can you list how big the file is too, just for reference in your thread. Thx. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Bug_Power)*

57 megs I believe.... need to find some other way to compress these files!


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_56k beware!
http://www.redpepper.cc/dubspe...g.mpg

Or anyone for that matter!!







I think I am going to wait this out out though . . . 9% only 29 minutes left 
Thanks for getting posted.










_Modified by evilpat at 10:39 PM 10-14-2003_


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Carphuntin_god)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Carphuntin_god* »_K, I know what you're doing. I vaguely understand why it should help the car. But picking up 50 miles a tank? That just seems to push it a bit.
Using my bug for comparison...it's a 14.5 gal tank, and I get roughly 28 mpg now. So, tank full gives me 406 miles (with perfect weather, etc.) If I could pull off 50 mpt more, my overall mileage would move to 31.45 mpg (math majors tell me if I bunged that up).
Call me a skeptic...but man I find it hard to believe this kind of mod could really bump the mileage like that. (and no, I'm not saying you're fibbing, just wondering if some other change at the same time could have been the real cause for the mileage jump).
Rodney and Hung...have you seen the same kind of inc. in mileage?

Well I won't be doing any testing yet. My car recently developed a knocking sound. I'm thinking it's the cover for the cam gears. I can tap and shake it and it makes a similiar sound. I took my wires out just in case I need to take it in the dealer if that's not the problem. I think I will also make a set in 8 gauge and hopefully test the difference between the two.


----------



## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (hungalicious)*

I can't imagine you finding a difference between the 4 and 8 AWG wiring. As long as the connection points are solid, it'll be all good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Bug_Power)*

Thanks Rodney for posting the video http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I have my ground wires all hooked up and ready to go, but with all the good pictures on here, I doubt you guys need mine.


----------



## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan`)*

Crutchfield has 8 gauge in transluscent black. 
That's where I got mine. .99/ft.


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Jman5000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jman5000* »_Crutchfield has 8 gauge in transluscent black. 
That's where I got mine. .99/ft.

Hate to tell ya Jman but check http://www.sounddomain.com . . . they usually beat Crutchfield's price by a bit (same stuff at $.60/ft) but Crutchfield has superior customer service.


----------



## iae21 (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Jman5000)*

So...what is the FINAL supply list needed to do this mod???


----------



## Carphuntin_god (Jun 5, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (evilpat)*

If I'm reading the right stuff on that site, you can buy 8 gauge, yellow for .50 a foot


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (iae21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iae21* »_So...what is the FINAL supply list needed to do this mod???

OK guys! Read the top of the first page again! I did a semi-write up. I'm missing some pictures, but i think you guys all get the jist of how this mod works. 


_Modified by Seanathan` at 12:57 PM 10-16-2003_


----------



## HwAoRrDk (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Carphuntin_god)*

Hmm... this is interesting. I was just Googling for the HKS Circle Earth kit and found an HKS press release from 2002 that contained this statement:

_Quote »_The terminal sections are all plated with 24 karat gold. Because of the malleability of 24 karat gold plated material and its excellent adhesion during the fastening process, we're able to reduce resistance between terminals to an absolute minimum.

So, they're saying their kit has gold-plated connectors because the gold plating effectively 'squashes' when you tighten the connection, making the contact better? Or is it just a fake reason to justify using flashy gold-plating?


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (iae21)*

Off topic...
I have about 15ft of silver 8 gauge wire that I need to get rid of since I don't need it anymore. 
IM me if you want it. $15 shipped.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (HwAoRrDk)*

Yeah 24k gold is really soft so it makes a sense. I got gold terminals, don't know if they are 24k or not... probably not... But as long as it has good conductivity and good metal to metal contact it will be beneficial. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (BoneKrusher)*

Any opinions on the write up? Anything I should change?


----------



## Kilmer (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_Any opinions on the write up? Anything I should change?









jump on a dyno and give result...







...isn't that the most asked for question on vortex


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (kilmer420)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kilmer420* »_
jump on a dyno and give result...







...isn't that the most asked for question on vortex

LOL. very true. Unfortunately the bills come first... so I'm not sure when a dyno run will be fitting in


----------



## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan`)*

so what gauge wire is everyone using on this?


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (mjmi11er)*

I'm using 4


----------



## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan`)*

Here's mine. Took about 90 minutes.








Chassis ground to manifold. Coil ground to manifold. Manifold to distribution point...next...








Distribution point to battery ground. Distribution point to tranny ground...next...








Battery ground to chassis ground.
Went for a spin...can't tell yet. Gotta get some more known roads, shifts, runs to the red to tell if it's helping.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Jman5000)*

Nice JMan! You got the correct connection point on the tranny right?


----------



## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan`)*

Roger that... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Jman5000)*

Can someone snap a shot of the tranny ground? I just want to make sure I'm hittng the right one... Hand to get my meaty hands down there, but its worth having meaty hands too.


----------



## mjmi11er (Apr 8, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (judoGTI)*

jman, 2 questions...
what gauge you using?
how do you keep you coolant tank so clear?


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (mjmi11er)*

I did mine all except the tranny mount, because Im not sure where that one is








I lost one of my engine cover holders to the abyss. It probably wouldn't have been the abyss if the sun hadn't gone down, but oh well.
One problem I did have was re-tightening thos screws with the new spacing due to the terminal thickness. 
I was slightly concerned having wires so close to the block and manifold, but we'll see how well they handle the heat. I might by some covering for them just incase tomorrow. We'll see how it runs in a bit.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (judoGTI)*

JudoGTi, 
All you have to do is follow the negative cable from the battery alll the way down to the tranny..... Thats the point you'll use. If someone can take a picture, I'll put it in my chopped up how-to


----------



## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (mjmi11er)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mjmi11er* »_jman, 2 questions...
what gauge you using?
how do you keep you coolant tank so clear?

8 gauge.
As for the coolant catch, it's a new car w/6500 miles on it. Probably just reflection off the plastic.
As for screws not functioning due to stacks of terminals "taking" threads away...I just reached into my every-dubber-has-to-have-one OEM extra fastners bin. I ended up using a screw for the airbox hold-down at my distribuition point. Same thread/pitch, just longer.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Jman5000)*

Thought I would add some information for those of you who are still reading this thread. I went to Tweeter and bought 8ga Monster cable ($.75/foot) and 10 8ga 24K gold plated crimp connectors ($1.95/box two/box). I tested for continuits and resistance before and after connecting the ground cables. Here is what I came up with.
*Before* 
_All test were done with one lead on the negative ground on the battery_ 
Passenger fender bolt: 56.9
Intake: 1.5
Coil Pack Ground: .5
Distribution Point: 1.2-1.4
Transmission: .3
*After* 
Passenger fender bolt: .1
Intake: .1
Coil pack ground: .1
Distribution point: .1
Transmission: .1

I didn't see any point in going from the battery ground to the driver side fender. I have tons of cable left, so I may do it at some point if there is enough convincing data out there. I"m gonna ground my wife's Infinity too, since I have so much left.
I have no VAG-COM, or Dyno data to accompany this, but my primary focus will be on fuel efficiency. I'll post that info as soon as I burn my next full tank.


----------



## Rice-Eater (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (3wheelinWolf)*

Just Curious, What is the cut off point with respect to guage of wire. I was going to pick up some AWG#2 welding wire for about $1.25 per foot but if the thicker wire wont be a benifit over say #4 then I'll go with the thinner wire as it's easier to work with. I guess what I'm trying to find out if you use thicker wire will it give better results?


----------



## illcaptive (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Rice-Eater)*

where on the tranny does it need to be grounded?


----------



## AkVdub (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (illcaptive)*

just a note for the guys questioning the gage of the cable... 8 gage will be fine...you only need thicker gage such as 4 or 2 for longer distances such as amps in the back of the car... for shorter distances there will be no difference unless your trying to power a small town








but make sure to use high quality/thread-count wire, not the cheapo stuff










_Modified by AkVdub at 12:24 PM 10-20-2003_


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (illcaptive)*


_Quote, originally posted by *illcaptive* »_where on the tranny does it need to be grounded?

Follow the neg battery cable to the tranny. Use that point.


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (AkVdub)*


_Quote »_...8 gage will be fine...you only need thicker gage such as 4 or 2 for longer distances such as amps in the back of the car... for shorter distances there will be no difference unless your trying to power a small town...

Actually, 14ga or 12ga is plenty...most of the current users in the engine bay draw less than 10A.








Reading this thread is a hoot...4ga or 6ga cable to handle a few mA. (_if a little is good, a lot must be better...right?_)


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
Follow the neg battery cable to the tranny. Use that point.

Well if the negative battery cable goes to the tranny, why do we need to add a new one? 
Im going to wait until my next oil change to get under there and look at it. So I could be wrong.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Well if the negative battery cable goes to the tranny, why do we need to add a new one? 
Im going to wait until my next oil change to get under there and look at it. So I could be wrong.

Because if you do not add another one, the system is incomplete. The whole point is to create a better ground. Second, you do not need to be underneth your car to see the neg. spot. Its easy as hell to spot. Its ontop of the tranny housing.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Because if you do not add another one, the system is incomplete. The whole point is to create a better ground. Second, you do not need to be underneth your car to see the neg. spot. Its easy as hell to spot. Its ontop of the tranny housing. 

Hmm, well my negative battery cable goes to the right (if looking from the front of the car) then under the battery itself. I couldn't follow it easy enough to see where it led too. I really dont want to move the battery to hook up the last ground cable up, so I thought I'd just wait until I could get under the car to follow the negative line down to the tranny. (this is also why I was asking for a pic a few posts back, which would still be appreciated for idiots like me








) Or a 'just for dummies' explaination to where it is. I see where you hooked the one up down there, but someone chimed in saying that was not the tranny ground?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Hmm, well my negative battery cable goes to the right (if looking from the front of the car) then under the battery itself. I couldn't follow it easy enough to see where it led too. I really dont want to move the battery to hook up the last ground cable up, so I thought I'd just wait until I could get under the car to follow the negative line down to the tranny. (this is also why I was asking for a pic a few posts back, which would still be appreciated for idiots like me







) Or a 'just for dummies' explaination to where it is. I see where you hooked the one up down there, but someone chimed in saying that was not the tranny ground?

It goes from the negative terminal to a post under the battery tray to the ground at the tranny. This ground under the battery is the first ground they tell you to check when diagnosing a problem car. So even though its directly ilnked to the battery and the closest, its the first one they think has a problem. so if you went from the negative terminal right to the tranmission, you would be installnig better grounds and also backing up the ground under the battery.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (judoGTI)*

Yeah I was the one that told Hungalicious that wasn't the spot. Like Chris said (thanks btw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif) It goes from the negative terminal to underneth the battery where theres a bolt, then right to the transmission. I wish I had a pic so that I could put it in the writeup (since thats all im missing) but I don't







. The best way to find it would be to look underneth the green top coolant temp sensor. Remember installing that? Well look underneth that coolant hose on the tranny housing and you'll see a black cable attach straight to the tranny. For the best view, stand on the side of your car, not in the front. But you should not need to remove the battery to find this... its really simple. Just stand on the side of the car and follow my directions.


----------



## MakeLuv2aDub (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_*****UPDATE*******
Alright guys, I finished the guide. Thank you Hungalicious, Bug Power, Black2001aww, Chris86vw, and Nessal for the great info and pictures. 
What else would you guys like me to add to the writeup? Also, I need some pictures of those tranny grounding points... anyone? 
Jake did his with you here in MA, and another point you should add is that you can get the wire from tweeter over here in auburn MA mad cheap thru jake cuz i guess the guy that works there had a thing for him !!!!!!!!! eewwwwwwwwwww....my poor boyfriend!!!!!!!! On a more serious note, we are doing this to my car real soon, thinking around this weekend or so...I kinda didn't buy into this at first, but I did more research on it and it sounds like a good idea...especially for my lil' 1.8 that needs al the help it can get...lol
And as you can see, my only digital camera is my cellphone, so i'll soon have to get off my ass and meet up with Perfekt or Flyinturbo for use of their cameras









_Modified by Seanathan` at 1:01 PM 10-16-2003_


----------



## MakeLuv2aDub (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (MakeLuv2aDub)*

no idea how it posted like that.....hehe


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (MakeLuv2aDub)*

just a little FYI...
the negative electrons which supply the "ground" dont have to "flow" from the battery directly to the electrical instrument.
the entire chassis is fulled with an unlimited supply of negative electrons. doesnt matter how many grounding points you have. since the chassis is welded together, 1 ground on the battery to any location is fine. and 1 ground from the motor to any where on the chassis is fine. 
you guys have no clue how electricity works, and are caught up in marketing hype....


----------



## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_just a little FYI...
the negative electrons which supply the "ground" dont have to "flow" from the battery directly to the electrical instrument.
the entire chassis is fulled with an unlimited supply of negative electrons. doesnt matter how many grounding points you have. since the chassis is welded together, 1 ground on the battery to any location is fine. and 1 ground from the motor to any where on the chassis is fine. 
you guys have no clue how electricity works, and are caught up in marketing hype....

In theory, sure. But there is a potential drop accross the block which raises the ground level. So the coilpacks are connected to the ground at the 'top' of the valve cover...this ground point is at a higher potential (although not much!!) than the ground by the negative battery terminal. ...and there are more than just coilpacks that require a grounding point...so the intent is to give everything a uniform ground potential.
Some of us do have a clue...


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_
In theory, sure. But there is a potential drop accross the block which raises the ground level. So the coilpacks are connected to the ground at the 'top' of the valve cover...this ground point is at a higher potential (although not much!!) than the ground by the negative battery terminal. ...and there are more than just coilpacks that require a grounding point...so the intent is to give everything a uniform ground potential.
Some of us do have a clue...









Which is why I inlcuded my before and after resistance numbers.
Like I said before...I will present MPG/MPT numbers next week. One thing I can tell you that was eliminated was whine from the radio/changer, while using my 12V ashtray power source to charge my cell phone. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_just a little FYI...

you guys have no clue how electricity works, and are caught up in marketing hype....

Just a little FYI for you.. 
I'm not caught up in marketing hype at all. At first I was clueless on how this exactly worked, but after doing alot of research this makes total sense. And although I haven't done any extensive testing yet, a couple people did so and have seen good results. But the most noticable difference is the increase of gas mileage. I'm hitting almost an extra 50 miles per tank of gas. And no my routes haven't changed, nor has my style. But whatever, this is really market hype especially since i'm telling people how to make their own and save money


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Makeluv2adub)*

Natalie, 
I would highly recommend doing this. I've talked to a couple of people who have had some of the older german automobiles and they have told me about the bad grounds that their cars have had. So I would try this with your Rabbit and see how it helps. Concidering you can get them pretty damn cheap


----------



## Gatorfreak (Jan 14, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_One thing I can tell you that was eliminated was whine from the radio/changer, while using my 12V ashtray power source to charge my cell phone. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I get that too! I'm awaiting shipment of my grounding cable to do this. It will be worthwhile if it merely fixes that problem.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Gatorfreak)*

How much did you pay for them?


----------



## Gatorfreak (Jan 14, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

$33... for 17 ft of 8 gauge and 14 crimp terminals.


----------



## BK Industries (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Gatorfreak)*

I just did mine with Ancor marine grade wiring, 6GA.
BTW, I have some left from the spool- 75cents/ft. IM me if you want sum http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Rice-Eater (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (BoneKrusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BoneKrusher* »_I just did mine with Ancor marine grade wiring, 6GA.
BTW, I have some left from the spool- 75cents/ft. IM me if you want sum http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









Cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I know it's totally overkill but I'm picking up the AWG#2 welding wire this weekend and doing this mod. Looking forward the the extra gas mileage and clear music.


----------



## AkVdub (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Just a little FYI for you.. 
I'm not caught up in marketing hype at all. At first I was clueless on how this exactly worked, but after doing alot of research this makes total sense. And although I haven't done any extensive testing yet, a couple people did so and have seen good results. But the most noticable difference is the increase of gas mileage. I'm hitting almost an extra 50 miles per tank of gas. And no my routes haven't changed, nor has my style. But whatever, this is really market hype especially since i'm telling people how to make their own and save money









im sold...im going to do it, its not going to hurt anything (not like i have spent 2k on stereo equipment







)


----------



## turbomadman (May 2, 2003)

yeah buddy!, i just scored 10 terminals from work. total for this mod will be $4.20


_Modified by turbomadman at 8:56 AM 10-22-2003_


----------



## DaDocDa (Jul 4, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Whats up guys. I bought the 5 piece kit for 50 bucks on the first thread of this post. I've seen others in here using 6 wires to ground the engine. I used 5 and itworks great. Really smoothed out idle. My gounding points were, Step# 1 Left fender second bolt to Intake manifold top bolt where engine cover clip is (this will be your distrubition point) Step#2 From Intake mainifold bolt to coil ground on head, Step# 3 From Intake mainifold bolt to tranny ground. I routed this under the fuel rail and down the right side of motor under the lower engine cover. This way the wire is not seen when the engine cover is reinstalled., Step#4 From Tranny ground to the battery. I routed this along the factory tranny ground (make sure u dont interfear with your shifter) and under the battery box. There is a wire clip under the battery box as well as a cover on the rear of the battery box. Pull the cover and place the wire there and connect it to the battery . And Step#5 From neg term to the first bolt on the drivers side fender. And you are done.I had to play the diffrent size wires but it all fits and looks good. One word of caution. The intake maifold top bolt is not very long when u put 3 diffrent wires under there, not many treads are holding the bolt in. Very easy to strip. Which I did. Either get a longer bolt or dont tighten it too much. And U are all good. I was too lazy to make my own but for 50 bucks a good mod and an easy one. If you guys want pics I can see if I can borrow a digtial camera post some up.
Thanks Adam


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (DaDocDa)*

I stripped my bolt on the head, but that piece comes out and I just drilled a larger hole and used a longer bolt.... I should add to use caution on the writeup... Thanks for reminding me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Well...i have been driving for a few days now, and I can't say that I notice much of a difference if any at all. My gas mileage hasn't increased/decerased, I don't have a smoother idle (was smooth to begin with though), I cant feel a difference in HP/TQ but w/o a dyno I can't say that i haven't gained any. The only thing that I can definately see, is that my sereo whine has been eliminated when I use the 12V power source in the ash tray. Other than that...nothing.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (3wheelinWolf)*

What points did you use? Remember you HAVE to use the tranny ground, and you must have all your points centralized...


----------



## wsaenotsock (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I did them all except the tranny. I followed the negative wire around but couldn't find the bolt to use. I got a pair of terminals and 6 ft. of wire left so I can do it just need to figure out which one.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wsaenotsock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wsaenotsock* »_I did them all except the tranny. I followed the negative wire around but couldn't find the bolt to use. I got a pair of terminals and 6 ft. of wire left so I can do it just need to figure out which one. 

Well there ya go







Your system is incomplete. All you do is just follow the negative wire. Its reallllllly simple. And its not the connection under the battery box. Look down ontop of the tranny casing. Underneth the greentop coolant sensor, and before the shift linkage. I WISH i could take a picture, but you wouldn't be able to make it out with my cellphone camera......


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Well there ya go







Your system is incomplete. 

It may be incomplete, but it is still performing better than it was before. That is if they are using a central point of contact to the negative terminal. If you daisy-chain them then it will obviously not be working better.
Now when you say, before the shift lever, do you mean towards the front of the car? or towards the rear?


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

Sorry, its right next to it. But you guys are going to kick yourself how easy this thing is. 
Stand on the side of the car (driver side). Look at the coolant line that the green top coolant sensor is sitting in. See the grey clip before the sensor? Follow that STRAIGHT down onto the tranny casing. You should see two black lines. One is another coolant line, and the line below that is the ground. You'll see a bolt on the tranny.


----------



## nobbyv (May 18, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

For anyone looking to build a DIY kit, I order stuff from http://www.partsexpress.com all the time. They have real cheap connectors and wiring. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Four 8 ga ring terminals for $1.35:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe...DID=7
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by nobbyv at 4:37 PM 10-23-2003_


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (nobbyv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nobbyv* »_For anyone looking to build a DIY kit, I order stuff from http://www.partsexpress.com all the time. They have real cheap connectors and wiring. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Four 8 ga ring terminals for $1.35:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe...DID=7
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by nobbyv at 4:37 PM 10-23-2003_

Thanks for the link!


----------



## illcaptive (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I still cant find it is there any way for you to post a pic ot some to post a pic of the tranny point.


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_Sorry, its right next to it. But you guys are going to kick yourself how easy this thing is. 
Stand on the side of the car (driver side). Look at the coolant line that the green top coolant sensor is sitting in. See the grey clip before the sensor? Follow that STRAIGHT down onto the tranny casing. You should see two black lines. One is another coolant line, and the line below that is the ground. You'll see a bolt on the tranny. 

I'll try to find it and take a pic... BRB..


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

I just took a pic of the possible tranny point. The server I use is having problems. Anyone care to host? Send me an IM and I place where I can email it.


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hungalicious* »_I just took a pic of the possible tranny point. The server I use is having problems. Anyone care to host? Send me an IM and I place where I can email it.

Sent IM
-Pat


----------



## pansyboy8 (May 20, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (evilpat)*

hey pat, could u send me the pic too? [email protected] Thanks!


----------



## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (pansyboy8)*

I'm looking down the barrel of 6 hours of driving tomorrow on familiar roads.
It'll be a nice test for me, in terms of increased mileage.


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (pansyboy8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pansyboy8* »_hey pat, could u send me the pic too? [email protected] Thanks!

Sure David, as soon as hungalicious gets it to me . . . I plan on doing this next week sometime, ordered everything today.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (evilpat)*

pics DMANIT pics!
think of Jerry's kids!!!!


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*


----------



## swett (Jun 28, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (evilpat)*

I took out my multimeter and measured the resistance from the battery ground to the head, the block, the intake manifold, and one spot on the frame, and I found that they were all zero. I'm not using the best multimeter(its cheap and analog), so I doubt they're exactly 0, probably more like 0.1 or 0.2, but I didn't see the larger resistance Bug Power found. This was on a Passat, if that makes any difference.
-Ian


----------



## illcaptive (Dec 18, 2001)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## wpifarmer (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (lenswerks)*

a daisy chain?? That makes no sense. A daisy chain will add the resistance of each of the wires in series. A star ground scheme would make much more sense.
Has anyone actually measured the deviation from ground with reference to the battery at these points? This sounds like an eBay style scam to me.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wpifarmer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wpifarmer* »_
Has anyone actually measured the deviation from ground with reference to the battery at these points? This sounds like an eBay style scam to me.

ahh reading before posting a wonderful things
first off there are numerous posts about the resistance change before after this mod.
secondly how is going to the local stereo shop and spending 20 buckson wire and terminals and ebay scam, is every local welding and stereo shop in on this???


----------



## evilpat (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wpifarmer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wpifarmer* »_a daisy chain?? That makes no sense. A daisy chain will add the resistance of each of the wires in series. A star ground scheme would make much more sense.
Has anyone actually measured the deviation from ground with reference to the battery at these points? This sounds like an eBay style scam to me.


It does help to read but since most people aren't going to go through all six pages . . .

_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_I noticed when hooking up continuity from the chassis to the head...my readings were .027 Block.... was .016 Intake Manifold Was .014.

All of them went down to .008 solid and steady after the grounding wires.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Additionally this is not a new idea, or a new topic on the Vortex for that matter, this would be the first time its application/testing/use has been discussed on here though.


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

I'll try to send evilpat the pic again tonight. My email is acting. Arghhh!


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

Thanks to evilpat for letting me use his space... 
Okay, is this the tranny ground point? If not I can take more pics of other bolts.


----------



## JLMax16 (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

Ok, here's a BUNCH of pics for you guys. I figured since I had my camera charging next to me, and my car right out front, and 15min of spare time I'd hook you guys up. If you need anymore explanation on any of the pictures, or want me to draw circles, or want MORE pictures just let me know.
This took me about 45min to do. And don't forget to SAND OFF THE PAINT under the screws, for metal to metal contact. Otherwise it does you no good, electricity can't go through paint. I figured all this out when trying to ground my amp.
If you want the full size pictures, which are LARGE, add ".orig.jpg" to the picture name (right click on picture, click properties, copy and paste "Address (URL), then add the ".orig.jpg" to the end of it)
We'll start from Left to right (facing the front of the car):
1st grounding point left fender to throttle body (it's actually under the bracket that the engine cover clips into)... Just look for the red sheeths, the wires are black and cleaner than anything in the engine bay. Also some of the sheeths are black, again, just follow the clean black wires.








From the coil pack ground to the throttle body...








Throttle body to some black bracket, to the rear of the FPR...








Here's the bracket...








From that black bracket to the neg battery post, and the negative battery post to the right fender...








The following are the best pics I could get of the tranny ground, the red sheeth is attached to the bolt...
















This is the type of crimps I used, I used 8g. wires for all the contacts and 4g for the negative battery post to the tranny ground. Same crimps too, just bigger.








Completed with everything in place, if the connectors weren't red it'd be a lot less noticeable, ah well.








Again, if you want some more pictures just let me know. Also, if I did something wrong let me know so I can fix it, or if I need to add a connection or something.
As far as gains, I did notice the throttle being a lot smoother. I would somewhat "sputter" if I accellerated in too high of a gear (even if I was only a little bit off in speed) a lot of that has been decreased. And as far as gas mileage I don't know yet.
EDIT: that's not the screw hung, its to the left of that, towards the front of the car and the screw is horizontal not vertical. When you find it you'll see the stock grounding wire attached to the left side. That bolt I'm sure would interfere with the shift cables, the real one is clear of all that. I added some pics of it (the best ones I could get).


_Modified by JLMax16 at 9:07 PM 10-24-2003_


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

DAMNIT I tried...


----------



## JLMax16 (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

It's all good. Hope my crappy pics help.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wpifarmer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wpifarmer* »_
This sounds like an eBay style scam to me.








Give me a break. Yeah do you see me selling anything? Thank you for the intelligent comment.. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (JLMax16)*

Its hard to tell from this pic but it looks like you got it...
















But from looking at this point it looks like you got it! YAY! LOL it took you guys forever to find it








edit: because i cant see clearly, you did follow this to the battery to make sure this was the right one i was talking about right? 


_Modified by Seanathan` at 10:15 PM 10-24-2003_


----------



## JLMax16 (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

Yeah I did. That cable is ridiculously long. It goes off the negative batery post, under the battery, then towards the front of the car and then bends around to the grounding point. I actually looked all over for the bolt, then happened to notice it had a wire coming off of it that was the same as the wire coming off of the negative battery post. Lucky me


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (JLMax16)*

Quick question.... Wouldn't running multiple wire from the NEG ground to different points in the engine bay be better? In a star pattern as was said before?
Just curious. I'm doing this mod tommorrow.


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

Also, can someone post the various lengths of cables that you cut? Including the cable going from the TB to the Coil ground on the head?
It'll save people, including myself, the trouble of having to measure everything out.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

I finally found it. It was under a few hoses for me. Here is a pic, the top one is the new ground and the bottom is the existing ground. They both are fastened to the same location.
Hope that helps people.


----------



## Nessal (Nov 24, 2002)

Good stuff guys!


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_Also, can someone post the various lengths of cables that you cut? Including the cable going from the TB to the Coil ground on the head?
It'll save people, including myself, the trouble of having to measure everything out.









Anyone?


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_
Anyone?

You lazy SOB get out there and measure. It takes 2 seconds.







lol










_Modified by judoGTI at 9:06 AM 10-26-2003_


----------



## gt2437 (Jul 29, 2000)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

bump for a good post. Just read all 7 pages


----------



## durksterVR6 (Aug 11, 2001)

*Re: (gt2437)*

I just ordered some 8 gauge cable ( 12 ' ) and enough gold 8 gauge connectors (+2 spares)
delivered price $16.50 ex partsexpress.com 
Some of the Cable specs :
"The high temperature rating (105° C/221° F) makes this cable perfect for use in engine compartments and other high heat environments"
cable in link is red although black is available
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe...0-178 
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe...5-659
Should not be a hard mod and for under $20.00 I don't have too much to lose.
Cheaper than a 20lb bag of corn + more likely to produce a 'positive' outcome.







for those that did the hard yards on this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
edited to add connector part #


_Modified by durksterVR6 at 6:51 PM 10-26-2003_


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (durksterVR6)*

Anyone know of any local places to buy some gold terminals cheap?
I've went to Best Buy, Circuit City, and Tweeter, and they're all 5.00 a pair!


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

******UPDATE******
Recently I helped a fellow vortexer, Rhadz71, choose some grounding points on his 24v Vr6. Well, yesterday was dyno day for us Southwest people and we all dyno'd. He first dyno'd his car without the wires resulting in 176hp/173tq. Then he hooked it all up again, and dyno'd at 181hp/177tq. He also commented that the car felt smoother and the radio sounded cleaner. He's to report back to me on any increase on gas mileage.







Oh yeah, and his mods are Evo intake and Miltek catback. So there are increases (obviously not gobs) but i believe this can almost be comparable to the increases seen with a cold air intake. So be the judges for yourself guys.








edit: his graph will be up soon. So as soon as i get it from him, i'll post it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif




_Modified by Seanathan` at 7:51 PM 10-26-2003_


----------



## obvious510 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

This thread (or parts of it) needs to be sticky. Seriously.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (obvious510)*


_Quote, originally posted by *obvious510* »_This thread (or parts of it) needs to be sticky. Seriously.


----------



## LilChaGTI (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

i get a pack of two for 1$ at BB (discount owns







)


----------



## obvious510 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_









...pervert


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (obvious510)*


_Quote, originally posted by *obvious510* »_
...pervert
















You know it actually took me a minute there to figure out why you called me a pervert.. I'd say you're the pervert for thinking that. LOL. The "







" face was for the fact that i actually have a thread that contributes to the knowledge rather than the useless babble. In otherwords, thank you.


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (LilChaGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LilChaGTI* »_i get a pack of two for 1$ at BB (discount owns







)

What's BB???


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

Best Buy


----------



## msiminoff (Oct 7, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

--Recently I helped a fellow vortexer, Rhadz71, choose some grounding points on his 24v Vr6--
So what grounding points did you choose for the 24V VR6???
Cheers
-Mark
2001 Eurovan Camper
http://homepage.mac.com/msiminoff


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (msiminoff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *msiminoff* »_
So what grounding points did you choose for the 24V VR6???


Actually i just led him in the direction on points that are a must.. He chose his own central point and his own throttle body point.. Send him an IM. I believe he might have some pictures.


----------



## obvious510 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_







You know it actually took me a minute there to figure out why you called me a pervert.. I'd say you're the pervert for thinking that. LOL. The "







" face was for the fact that i actually have a thread that contributes to the knowledge rather than the useless babble. In otherwords, thank you.









Bahahha, no I'm just playin. 
This thread does rock. I cant wait to get started on my own grounding points. Car audio shop 20 feet from my house, they hook me up on cable/connectors. Good, simple mod everyone should be able to do.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (obvious510)*

hahhaha ok 








Anyway, I can't wait to get that dyno up! I was truly happy that it showed some increase.


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_Best Buy

The day Best Buy is considered "discount" is the day I'm driving an Enzo....


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

AND..... here is Rhadz71's 24v Vr6 dyno!









_Quote, originally posted by *RHADZ71* »_
Run #1: Milltek and EVO CAI: 176 HP; 173 TQ 
Run #2: Plus Hyper ground system: 181 HP; 177 TQ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Run #3: 4th gear: 182 HP; 179 TQ 
Not bad...the HGS results were surprising...


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_
The day Best Buy is considered "discount" is the day I'm driving an Enzo....









LOL Best Buy sucks donkey mule. But he is probably an employee, becasue all audio hookup stuff costs .25 to make and then mark it up 1000% I used to work there (got HS jobs sucked, but at least it motivated me to go to college and get a job that pays more than any best buy exec. from the get go) and get monster cable for $1.00, gold connectors etc.. all super cheap.


----------



## LilChaGTI (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

yes i have a discount because i work there


----------



## rmatthews9 (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

we should sticky this... installing my wires now should be easy enough thanks to this thread...


----------



## dknl (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

anyone know if running the ground wire from coilpack ground to throttle body ground is a little "risky"? I haven't seen any damage on the wire yet from the heat but it definitely gets real hot!! The wire actually touches the metal surfaces of the engine so I was wondering if this was ok or not.
I used some power cable meant for high end audio installations. The cable was soft and flexible and I was told it would be ideal in the engine bay but i don't think it was meant to be resting on the hot engine surface.
thanks in advance,
dk


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (dknl)*

You can run it without it touching the engine. I did, too a little work, and some angleing of the terminals when I tighten the screws, but nothing is touching my engine.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

Ya you should be able to run it w/o touching. Btw, why isn't there a link to this in the FAQS??


----------



## obvious510 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_Ya you should be able to run it w/o touching. Btw, why isn't there a link to this in the FAQS??









Why doesn't someone clean it up (IE remove all posts without technical info) and put it in the DIY?


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (obvious510)*

We need to have two seperate sticky threads. One, FAQ's, and another DIY's....


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

I'm still not seeing any benefit to this modification. I have had this done for over two weeks now, and 3 tanks of gas have been run dry. I have gained no better fuel economy, no noticeble increase in engine smoothness, throttle response, or power (<--didn't expect any). The only thing that improved was my radio whine, while charging my cell phone.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*

Well, sucks for you then. Thats all I can say. But the dyno has proven you wrong. Sure, its on a 24v, but someone did a dyno on a 20v a while back and had the same exact increase. So whatever, I don't expect everyone to be a believer.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_Well, sucks for you then. Thats all I can say. But the dyno has proven you wrong. Sure, its on a 24v, but someone did a dyno on a 20v a while back and had the same exact increase. So whatever, I don't expect everyone to be a believer. 

It has nothing to do with being a believer. I installed the cabling, because I felt the data that was being presented was accurate, and believable. I'm telling you and others, that I have had no such gain, beliver or not.
I don't care..it was only 30 bucks, just saying, it didn't do jack, other than uniformly reduce resistance to all my grounding points. Maybe there was nothing wrong with my car, that improving the grounds would have corrected.
"Simma down now"


----------



## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*

..adding a couple hp won't register on the butt dyno, either










_Modified by flanders at 4:30 PM 11-3-2003_


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_..adding a couple hp won't register on the butt dyno, either :mrgreen:
 
Well that just depends on how sensitive your butt is!








I can tell you my pucker factor went up a few notches with this mod.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_..adding a couple hp won't register on the butt dyno, either :mrgreen:

I agree...my butt dyno isn't nearly as sensitive as JudoGti I guess.


----------



## 20vJetta (May 22, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

there are also 2 ground spots under the battery.... sorry if that was already mentioned


----------



## -Shaun (Aug 29, 2003)

Just did this mod today before work. Car seems smoother and my turbo timer shows voltage being 14.4 instead of 13.9 like it was before this mod. I used Stinger 8awg from sounddomain.com.


----------



## Frank aka Rick (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*

I did this last week and there is a noticble difference in the car. The throttle response is smooth as silk, and I got a noticible increase in gas mileage with no change in driving habits. Light went on so I put in $10 of 93 at sunoco @ $1.76 per gal for 5.68 gal of gas. 190 miles before the light came on this time...thats 33 mpg. Thats insane. My car was barely breaking 300 on a full tank before. I'm going to post my results after I go through a full tank this week. I could care less about the power increase, go gas mileage!


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (20vJetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20vJetta* »_there are also 2 ground spots under the battery.... sorry if that was already mentioned

Thats not the negative ground you need! Don't use that spot, instead follow that spot to the tranny so you have the source of the negative ground.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (DJD-Rick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJD-Rick* »_I did this last week and there is a noticble difference in the car. The throttle response is smooth as silk, and I got a noticible increase in gas mileage with no change in driving habits. Light went on so I put in $10 of 93 at sunoco @ $1.76 per gal for 5.68 gal of gas. 190 miles before the light came on this time...thats 33 mpg. Thats insane. My car was barely breaking 300 on a full tank before. I'm going to post my results after I go through a full tank this week. I could care less about the power increase, go gas mileage!









Wish I was as lucky as you. I still fight for 300MPT.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
It has nothing to do with being a believer. I installed the cabling, because I felt the data that was being presented was accurate, and believable. I'm telling you and others, that I have had no such gain, beliver or not.
I don't care..it was only 30 bucks, just saying, it didn't do jack, other than uniformly reduce resistance to all my grounding points. Maybe there was nothing wrong with my car, that improving the grounds would have corrected.
"Simma down now"

Well like I said, sucks for you.







Not meaning that in an insulting way, just that plenty of people seem to have noticed results. And it sucks that you haven't~shrug~. So do what you will, its all good. But let me ask you this: Did you have all your ground points connected? Not substituting essential points? Did you have a central point? Also, Did you make sure your contacts were clean? 


_Modified by Seanathan` at 8:09 AM 11-7-2003_


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
Wish I was as lucky as you. I still fight for 300MPT. 

lol. Same here. I've been testing to see my gas mileage w/o the groundwires and soon I'm going to install them with and see. But better gas mileage is defintely one of the benefits.


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

I finally got around to doing this mod to my Jetta. I attempted it last week, but while doing it, my hand slipped and one of the grounded wires popped up and touched the positive terminal!








Anyway, I immediatly jumped in the car to see if I fried anything. Car turned over, and immediatly a solid CEL popped up. I figured with the soild CEL I'd be ok. I cleared the code and no more CEL. Drove to my GF's parents and parked for about 20 minutes. When we left the house, the CEL came back on. I proceeded to drive home when 20 minutes later the EPC light suddenly came on and I had NO throttle! CEL came on and stayed on. 
Anyway, after limping home, I had the car towed to the dealer the next day, and it turns out I fried both potentiometers in the accelerator pedal, and the ECU would no longer send a ground signal to it. Had to have the ECU and pedal replaced.... 
Oh, and I was driving a Ford Taraus for a week since I had to leave my car at the dealer. Man, did THAT suck!








Anyway, don't know about gas milage, but after the flawless install today, the car definitly feels much smoother and seems to run better. I'm going to see how my milage is the next time I fill up. So far, though, so good!


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

BTW, the above post is a warning.... 
*KEEP THE POSITIVE TERMINAL COVERED UP WHILE DOING THIS MOD TO PREVENT WHAT I DID!*
That is all....


----------



## the_nokia_guy (May 8, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Great info... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_BTW, the above post is a warning.... 
*KEEP THE POSITIVE TERMINAL COVERED UP WHILE DOING THIS MOD TO PREVENT WHAT I DID!*
That is all....









Sorry I had to laugh at this. I felt the positive terminal pulling me in as if it had the Force while I was doing this mod. I thought it was going to be only a matter of time.... heh. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bikerdude1.8 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

Yep, I thought the same thing while I was installing. Although I saw your warning on 20VTurbo, so I was very careful around the battery area.
I hope everything turned out for you Diddy.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
But let me ask you this: Did you have all your ground points connected? Not substituting essential points? Did you have a central point? Also, Did you make sure your contacts were clean? 

_Modified by Seanathan` at 8:09 AM 11-7-2003_

The contact area were cleaned, and I used 24K gold plated connectors for good measure. As far as a central point is concerned, I'm not sure what you mean. Here is what I connected:
negaitve terminal--->transmission--->distribution point--->coil packs--->Intake Manifold--->passenger fender. What did I miss?


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
The contact area were cleaned, and I used 24K gold plated connectors for good measure. As far as a central point is concerned, I'm not sure what you mean. Here is what I connected:
negaitve terminal--->transmission--->distribution point--->coil packs--->Intake Manifold--->passenger fender. What did I miss?

You don't have a wire going from the driver's side fender to the negative on the battery. You need to be hooked up to BOTH fenders for this mod to work...


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

You also need one from the negative terminal to the distribution point (bolt behind the FPR).


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

Why the other fender? that doesn't make sense to me. Details please?!?


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_You also need one from the negative terminal to the distribution point (bolt behind the FPR).

He doesn't need that since he is going from the term->tranny->dist. point (behind Fpr)


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_You also need one from the negative terminal to the distribution point (bolt behind the FPR).

How is this different from the tranny to the distribution point? If im going from the neg to the tranny, and the tranny to the distr point already?
I've run tests with a volt meter, and all of my grounding points are reading the same resistance...how will adding one more redundant cable from the negative terminal improve a .001 ohm reading, or increase fuel mileage?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really wondering.


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
He doesn't need that since he is going from the term->tranny->dist. point (behind Fpr)

Actually, you should have both. It should go like this.....
Passenger fender -----> Throttle Body
Throttle Bod -----> FPR
FPR -----> Ground on Tranny
FPR -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
Ground on Tranny -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
Driver's fender -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
I have all these, plus I ran one from the Throttle Body to the Coil Ground on the head.
Here's a pic on the driver's side fender wire:


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_
Actually, you should have both. It should go like this.....
Passenger fender -----> Throttle Body
Throttle Bod -----> FPR
FPR -----> Ground on Tranny
FPR -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
Ground on Tranny -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
Driver's fender -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
I have all these, plus I ran one from the Throttle Body to the Coil Ground on the head.
Here's a pic on the driver's side fender wire:


No it doens't matter, a ground is a ground. As long as everything is connected and it all goes to the negative terminal you will be AOK with this mod. It is just redundancy if you had more. Doesn't hurt, but technically not needed.


_Modified by judoGTI at 4:02 PM 11-7-2003_


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

From the first post....

_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_So go out and try some points for yourself. Just remember that you'll need a centralized point, and that you need each side of the chassis as well for this mod to effectively work.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_From the first post....


Yeah but he also said when he first created his thread that he didn't really know what he was doing and was open to suggestions. All you need it to make sure all the ground wires are connected to each other in one way or another and at some point in time reach the negative terminal. 
The BEST setup would be a star pattern from the negative terminal to all the grounding points. That would make each ground its own independent entity. But this method that we have all done works well too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*









At least I'm not alone in my thinking. Id the driver fender needed? I can do one more cable.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
The contact area were cleaned, and I used 24K gold plated connectors for good measure. As far as a central point is concerned, I'm not sure what you mean. Here is what I connected:
negaitve terminal--->transmission--->distribution point--->coil packs--->Intake Manifold--->passenger fender. What did I miss?

You're missing negative to driver fender. And your distribution point to the negative terminal. You do need this to be complete. There are a couple of requirements that you need for this to work, and that is one of them. Also, I did say to go out and try this yourself, I never said I don't know what i'm doing.








Edit: also is your distribution point the central point i recommended? 


_Modified by Seanathan` at 3:40 PM 11-7-2003_


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
The BEST setup would be a star pattern from the negative terminal to all the grounding points. That would make each ground its own independent entity. But this method that we have all done works well too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

The best setup would be a star pattern, but this works just as well.


----------



## Kei78 (Oct 8, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Anyone run a wire to the alternator? This was discussed 5 pgs ago. Just curious if anyone has with a purty pic?


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## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
...a ground is a ground. 
_Modified by judoGTI at 4:02 PM 11-7-2003_

If that were true, there would be no reason to tie all the points that have ground terminations on them together. The problem that exists is that the car, engine, transmission, & all of their fasteners are relied upon to do the same job that a wire does in the residential, commercial, & industrial world of wiring/grounding. Unfortunately, these metal parts do not have the same characteristics of a copper wire. Therefore, as parts corrode, resistance builds up, & what may have been a perfect ground when the car was new is now marginal. This mod eliminates the need to rely on the car & its' fasteners to be your ground connection to the battery. I think the ground connection to the alternator housing is a must for you to take 100% advantage of this mod. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*

I went and checked my tranny ground just to see the point. It looks like it already has 2 4-awg cables running to it? Is this the correct point? Is mine somwhat different for being a 6 speed?
Also, bump for info on the alternator ground....


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

My tranny ground only had the one 4 gague cable connected to it. The one from the negative on the battery. 
It's really simple to find. There's a stud sticking out sideways from the tranny. The cable is held on by a 14mm nut.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_There's a stud sticking out sideways from the tranny. The cable is held on by a 14mm nut. 

13mm, this is a VW were working on here.


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
13mm, this is a VW were working on here.

I forgot, VW's don't have ANY 14 mm nuts anywhere on the car.....








Mine was a 14.....


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## Jman5000 (Nov 8, 1999)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

For those using thicker terminals and forming a distribution point at the little bracket near the FPR, you can use one of the airbox hold-down screws (if you're not using them because of a CAI, or you just plain have extra) to thread into that bracket.
It's longer, so you can stack terminals and still connect stuff back where it needs to be.
385+ on a tank since this mod, freeway miles.


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: (Jman5000)*

Just for reference... I can get 370 when the gas light comes on. This is all freeway miles with NO grounding cables.


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## Shad (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

Today I made a grounding net with 5 cables: right fender, head, coilpacks, intake manifold and transmission. Better throtle response, pulling harder and burning gas like hell. It used to make 11km/l and now all I get is 7km/l. Very strange.


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Shad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shad* »_Today I made a grounding net with 5 cables: right fender, head, coilpacks, intake manifold and transmission. Better throtle response, pulling harder and burning gas like hell. It used to make 11km/l and now all I get is 7km/l. Very strange.

Did you attach anything to the negative terminal on the battery?


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

So let me get this straight. First off, I'm not out to offend anyone or discredit any posts. Those who know my style on here is just to seek the hard data to evaluate the performance of any product.
So far I've read nine pages and have seen the following results ....
2-3 people have measured differences in the electrical characteristics between certain points in the car that are assumed to be grounded. After doing this modification, all the resistances went down.
2-3 people claim a gas mileage increase. One used the fuel light as the measure of how much gas was consumed, one uses full tanks of gas to measure fuel consumption.
One dyno was performed which showed an increase between having this grounding system disconnected and then reconnected. An increase was also seen after a third run with no changes to the car (this part was unclear, please correct me if I am wrong).
Others have claimed to improve radio reception and/or remove noise in the radio. Others claim smoother throttle response.
After nine pages these are all the results I can find.
I would have expected to see some VAG-COM blocks logged. Or someone put a precise fuel meter on their car to monitor the amount of gas used with and without the system. Are there any plans for any of this to be done in order to get some more data?
Don't get me wrong, this is great stuff, but I personally feel it is a little short on evidence at this point?
PS With a EE undergrad degree, it is fun to watch the back and forth discussions regarding electricity etc.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*

I think you overlooked the importance of this mod:
IT COSTS 20 BUX AND 1/2 HOUR OF YOUR TIME.








If you were to log some vag com blocks, what would you log? I will do it probably next weekend once I do this mod.
I also will take pictures showing impedance between the different ground points and the negative battery. I may even flood this post with a ton of pictures too.


----------



## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_I think you overlooked the importance of this mod:
IT COSTS 20 BUX AND 1/2 HOUR OF YOUR TIME.








If you were to log some vag com blocks, what would you log? I will do it probably next weekend once I do this mod.
I also will take pictures showing impedance between the different ground points and the negative battery. I may even flood this post with a ton of pictures too.









VAG-COM - you can log Block 120 at both full throttle and part throttle situations. Even if the absolute numbers don't mean anything (on chipped cars specifically, which may be the case as an issue with the VAG-COM), you should be able to see a change in engine output with and without the system connected between the two data sets. I don't believe Block 120 does all of this for you ... there should be another Block which tells you the amount of throttle being applied in order to do the part throttle tests accurately. I have inferred that this mod can possibly change the sparking efficiency, which can directly relate to output power. Most definitely, I could be wrong on this.
As well, $20 and half an hour of time is just that. Everyone's situation is different, and that could be one of the biggest factor's in deciding to do this modification.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*

I dont trust block 120 with my setup (ATP Gen2, revo programming, 4.2 bar FPR).
Just FYI, I did use 120 when ditching my cai, as I put my K&N on the maf housing itself. Said I got an increase of 6hp. I dont believe it. It fluctuates too much, at least for my setup.
And for a 20 dollar mod, I wouldnt have done what the guy with the VR6 did, dyno'ing it, unless I was trying to sell a product or had a buddy at a dyno shop. It doesnt make sense to dyno 20 dollar mods.
I think my original plan showing voltage drops and impedances around these specific spots should be sufficient. Grounding kits are NOT new in design and theory, they have been around long enough, and if I see an impedance drop by installing these, then they did what I expect them to.
I do not expect an increase in mileage, but if it happens, hey now!


----------



## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*

I guess my specific question is ...
If all you want is an impedence drop, is it just for piece of mind, or do you expect real, tangible gains to accompany it ??
And if you expect gains, how do you 'quantify' them if people want justification to spend the time and $$ (like me, I guess) ?
I'm not trying to start an arguement, just wanting to know the train of thought here from those who have performed the modification so far ....


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*

Man, you are a tough sell!








I guess that is the point. I am not trying to sell you. If you have an interest in doing this, then do it and make your own measurements. 20 dollars is a tank of gas, no big deal. And it also lets you spend time with your car.
I will do block 120 not to "sell" you, just to provide info for you. Maybe I will log timing as well, maybe a hotter spark?







dont really know, I just know that with my setup, I expect this mod to be in the noise and not be significant.
i also will monitor mileage... just FYI I get consistenly 270-280mpg before the light pops on.


----------



## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_Man, you are a tough sell!









Any and all data is what I like. In my opinion, the more that is provided, the better.
I think you guys are doing great work by trying this stuff out and then measuring the difference it makes. This is the type of attitude the next "blockbuster do-it-yourself" modification results from, and I don't know of one person (besides a VW tech trying to honor a warranty perhaps) who doesn't appreciate it!


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*

Raman Gain, I'll respond to you when i get back from work


----------



## mancuso (May 20, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

"There's a sucker born every minute." - P. T. Barnum


----------



## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Raman Gain* »_I guess my specific question is ...
If all you want is an impedence drop, is it just for piece of mind, or do you expect real, tangible gains to accompany it ??
And if you expect gains, how do you 'quantify' them if people want justification to spend the time and $$ (like me, I guess) ?


A good ground is essential to any electronics system. If your ground is floating a bit (which is definitely possible) it might be sitting at ...say...0.5V. So instead of your coilpacks getting their 12V, they're only getting 11.5V. I'm sure they'll still well within spec, but a clean 12V potential is going to make them run with less noise (and for a lack of better term, more efficiently). Ultimately, this *could* give you a bit better mileage...I'm sceptical of the extra 30 miles per tank, because (I find ) there are way too many variables that can afffect mileage.
Same can be said with your radio. Some parts in there require a clean voltage potential. So if your ground is floating, then this reduces the noise margins within it (which is why the benefit you might actually notice right away is that your radio reception gets a bit better







)
I had a crappy old car which had a very poor ground. While there were definitely little elecronics in this vehicle, the poor ground gave me crappy mileage and the car definitely didn't run very well. I swapped the ground wire (i was replacing everything anyway) and *poof* it gave new life to my vehicle.
I'm not going to guarantee you'll notice a huge difference with this mod, but as I see it...for $20 it's going to give you some small benefits (maybe peace of mind too for the future!) and it's cheap and easy enough, and it's definitely does NOT have any negative side effects.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_
I forgot, VW's don't have ANY 14 mm nuts anywhere on the car.....








Mine was a 14..... 

not trying to ruin this thread, but no VW I have every worked on from rabbits to brand new 03s has ever had anything but a 13mm for the ground to that bolt, you may have used a 14mm but its a 13mm I am just trying ot prevent posts of people who stripped out a nut and now can't get it off because they tried a 14mm.
Would you like to know where the only two 11m head bolts on the car are???


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
not trying to ruin this thread, but no VW I have every worked on from rabbits to brand new 03s has ever had anything but a 13mm for the ground to that bolt, you may have used a 14mm but its a 13mm I am just trying ot prevent posts of people who stripped out a nut and now can't get it off because they tried a 14mm.
Would you like to know where the only two 11m head bolts on the car are???

It was a 14mm and no....


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (M Diddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_
It was a 14mm and no....

Ok everyone else reading this post M Diddy has the only VW ever made with a 14mm nut at the trans ground. For the rest of you curious as to what size socket/wrench whatever you will need a 13mm. This is how it has always been and to this day still is for this nut. If you would like I can tell you off the top of my head every tool you would need to remove your trans and tear it down to the diff and individual syncros.
Ps the two 11mm bolts hold the shield onto the trans for cars with steel oil pans, this covers the back of the flyweel and prevents stuf form getting in there. oddly they used a 10mm for the upper portion of this.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
Ok everyone else reading this post M Diddy has the only VW ever made with a 14mm nut at the trans ground.


lol...... 
It's a 13mm... M Diddy, you might've used a 14mm socket. I've done that on other parts and didn't realize that it was actually a smaller size.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (mancuso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mancuso* »_"There's a sucker born every minute." - P. T. Barnum

I'm not sure why this is directed at me...










_Modified by Seanathan` at 12:44 AM 11-11-2003_


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Raman Gain* »_
2-3 people have measured differences in the electrical characteristics between certain points in the car that are assumed to be grounded. After doing this modification, all the resistances went down.


Correct.

_Quote »_2-3 people claim a gas mileage increase. One used the fuel light as the measure of how much gas was consumed, one uses full tanks of gas to measure fuel consumption.

Correct. As there is no other way to test gas mileage while remaining unprofessional, I used a full tank of gas on the same route and have a very noticable increase. My driving style on the trips remained about the same. Some city driving, alot of highway, vice-versa. Each tank of gas fluxuates even with the same driving style, but thats at the *most* 10mpg, not 50. 

_Quote »_
One dyno was performed which showed an increase between having this grounding system disconnected and then reconnected. An increase was also seen after a third run with no changes to the car (this part was unclear, please correct me if I am wrong). 

Ok, with the dyno, you need to look at that again. The first and second dyno run were made in third gear, while the last run was made in fourth. So in essence the last run is unjustifable in the increase because of the different gear that was chosen. Remember, this was performed in a Gli (24v Vr6 6spd). 

_Quote »_Others have claimed to improve radio reception and/or remove noise in the radio. Others claim smoother throttle response. 

I can "claim" both of those.. if you have any idea on an instrument that I can measure cleaner speakers and smoother throttle, I'm all ears. 

_Quote »_After nine pages these are all the results I can find.

That's alot more than alot of these other threads









_Quote »_
I would have expected to see some VAG-COM blocks logged. Or someone put a precise fuel meter on their car to monitor the amount of gas used with and without the system. Are there any plans for any of this to be done in order to get some more data?

As for Vag-Com logs, I talked to [email protected] and we couldn't really come up with any logs that would work idealy besides using the "buttdyno", which at this point a true dyno would be better. 











_Modified by Seanathan` at 12:49 AM 11-11-2003_


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Raman Gain* »_
Any and all data is what I like. In my opinion, the more that is provided, the better.
I think you guys are doing great work by trying this stuff out and then measuring the difference it makes. This is the type of attitude the next "blockbuster do-it-yourself" modification results from, and I don't know of one person (besides a VW tech trying to honor a warranty perhaps) who doesn't appreciate it!









OK. First, this mod just gets cheaper and cheaper every time I read a new page. You will be HARD pressed to buy high quality 8awg cable and 6-7 sets of decent connectors for 20 bucks. This is more in the ball park of a 30-40 dollar mod.
Second, I think you are justified in that you want some emperical data to prove the end result of a better grounded electrical system. Obvioulsy impedance will be reduced, but what eral effect should it yield. 
I can't say that I have had any tangible gains (but dyno, throttle response, smoothness, fuel economy), but that is not to say that some smaller less tangible function of my car has been improved. 
Realisticaly, what components of the engine's electrcal system should be improved, that we can test to verify a change for the better (or worse)?
Lets make a list. I don't have a VAG-COM to be able to speak intelligently enough about which logs will provide what data, but I'll start by throwing out your (Raman) block 120 idea to check out the throttle.
Can we check timing/retard? Map sensor? Coils? MAF? Throttle? Will the front O2 sensor have any worthwhile data? 




_Modified by 3wheelinWolf at 8:38 AM 11-11-2003_


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
As for Vag-Com logs, I talked to [email protected] and we couldn't really come up with any logs that would work idealy besides using the "buttdyno", which at this point a true dyno would be better. 








_Modified by Seanathan` at 12:49 AM 11-11-2003_

Just saw that last line. That sucks.


----------



## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
Realisticaly, what components of the engine's electrcal system should be improved, that we can test to verify a change for the better (or worse)?


Any electrical component that uses the block as a ground will benefit (which the last time I checked is quite a bit of sensors and components). Noticable to you? maybe or maybe not. Why are you looking for this evidence? What does it matter if "my MAP sensor has 40% better signal integrity" or "the noise margins on my ECU have been increased by 5%" I'm not trying to be a dick







but if I can strengthen my grounds to give all my components a solid gnd and 12v-ish potential, then I know that my electronics are doing their bestest job possible (go look at the noise in any electronics system like this on a scope, and you'll see why having solid voltage rails and clean signal integrity might actually make a difference).


----------



## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*

Seanathan et al,
Thanks for answering all of my questions. This thread is a class act.
Not being able to 'measure' or 'quantify' the improvements should not detract from the validity of this modification. I was just hoping that some extra data could pop up from testing which would augment the case for doing this modification.
Enjoy the holiday!


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Raman Gain* »_Seanathan et al,
Thanks for answering all of my questions. This thread is a class act.
Not being able to 'measure' or 'quantify' the improvements should not detract from the validity of this modification. I was just hoping that some extra data could pop up from testing which would augment the case for doing this modification.
Enjoy the holiday!









Thanks.







And as for a class act, are you serious or sarcastic? It is so hard to tell these days








As for tangible proof, its already been proven that resisitance has gone down, a dyno has already been shown, along with first hand testiments. So if you can come up with something else that I can do, I'll gladly do it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
As for tangible proof, its already been proven that resisitance has gone down, a dyno has already been shown, along with first hand testiments. So if you can come up with something else that I can do, I'll gladly do it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Flanders: This is all I was getting at. I am sure that it helps to ground the car better. I just like to see it in font of me.


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## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*

Just for general info & correctness, there is no such thing as impedance in a DC circuit.
Main Entry: im·ped·ance 
Pronunciation: im-'pE-d&n(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 1886
: something that impedes : HINDRANCE: as a : the apparent opposition in an electrical circuit to the flow of an alternating current that is analogous to the actual electrical resistance to a direct current and that is the ratio of effective electromotive force to the effective current 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Gatorfreak (Jan 14, 2001)

*Re:*

I did this on Veteran's day. Not enough time yet to measure gas mileage but I'll post once I burn through a tank. It did cure my radio reception problem when the cell phone is being charged. That, alone, made it worth it for me. I didn't do the tranny ground though. From the pics, I wasn't 100% sure which one ya'll are talking about. Best I could guess, it was the one that already has a very substantial (4 gauge, maybe bigger) direct ground to the battery on it. I don't see much point in adding an additional ground to it. I have an AWW. Maybe the AWD's didn't have that additional ground? Or maybe, and more likely, I just guessed the wrong bolt.
Anyway, it was an easy and fun mod that dramatically improved radio reception. Especially AM. I like to listen to sports talk shows.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_Just for general info & correctness, there is no such thing as impedance in a DC circuit.
Main Entry: im·ped·ance 
Pronunciation: im-'pE-d&n(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 1886
: something that impedes : HINDRANCE: as a : the apparent opposition in an electrical circuit to the flow of an alternating current that is analogous to the actual electrical resistance to a direct current and that is the ratio of effective electromotive force to the effective current 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
















While yes it may not be the dictionary correct term it is often used. For example high impedance injectors are ones with higher resistance. And if you look up
analogous :Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy
You would find tha right in the defenition you posted that its the same or similar as saying resistance of a DC circuit and anyone reading this who knows the definition of either would know what they are referring too.
not arguing just pointing out














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Thanks.







And as for a class act, are you serious or sarcastic? It is so hard to tell these days









If I'm being sarcastic, you'd know it.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Re: (Gatorfreak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gatorfreak* »_I did this on Veteran's day. Not enough time yet to measure gas mileage but I'll post once I burn through a tank. It did cure my radio reception problem when the cell phone is being charged. That, alone, made it worth it for me. I didn't do the tranny ground though. From the pics, I wasn't 100% sure which one ya'll are talking about. Best I could guess, it was the one that already has a very substantial (4 gauge, maybe bigger) direct ground to the battery on it. I don't see much point in adding an additional ground to it. I have an AWW. Maybe the AWD's didn't have that additional ground? Or maybe, and more likely, I just guessed the wrong bolt.
Anyway, it was an easy and fun mod that dramatically improved radio reception. Especially AM. I like to listen to sports talk shows.


Actually it was pointed out earlier that they all have that ground. However the first ground they tell you to check when having problems is the one under the battery and the trans, it stops under the battery before going to the transmission. So while it may seem like there is a nice big ground there, its also the one with the most problems.


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## durksterVR6 (Aug 11, 2001)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*

QUOTE "OK. First, this mod just gets cheaper and cheaper every time I read a new page. You will be HARD pressed to buy high quality 8awg cable and 6-7 sets of decent connectors for 20 bucks. This is more in the ball park of a 30-40 dollar mod."
I provided a link to the parts I purchased, and the 17$ I spent ( shipped) was actually more than I need for this..
The next time I dyno I will run with and without the same cables and connectors.
If I DO make more hp ( which isnt my motivation; its the electrical system being grounded correctly) with this setup, what would then be the next argument against them ?
They arent as pretty as the hyperground 130$ cables ?


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (durksterVR6)*

I'll be dynoing on friday and I do nothave the grounds done yet, can't find black wire in the state of NJ. So I'll look again tomorrow if not I'll get the blue or silver I did find. I'll set itup so I can disconnect the entire setup to do before and after runs with. Hopefully I'll have time to get it done have ot take my cams out so people don't cry when I post my dyno results.


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (durksterVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *durksterVR6* »_If I DO make more hp ( which isnt my motivation; its the electrical system being grounded correctly) with this setup, what would then be the next argument against them ?
They arent as pretty as the hyperground 130$ cables ?









If the runs with the system connected produce more power/torque than without the system connected, _and the increase is measurably outside the variance caused by the dyno_, then it can't be argued. This is just why I don't think two dyno runs (especially on our 1.8Ts) would prove anything since the motors can produce different results on different dyno runs (this can be argued as well).
Three dyno runs with and without the system connected (each) ... SOLD to the highest bidder ....


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## Gatorfreak (Jan 14, 2001)

*Re: Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
Actually it was pointed out earlier that they all have that ground. However the first ground they tell you to check when having problems is the one under the battery and the trans, it stops under the battery before going to the transmission. So while it may seem like there is a nice big ground there, its also the one with the most problems.

Ah-ha! Thanks for the clarification! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
While yes it may not be the dictionary correct term it is often used. For example high impedance injectors are ones with higher resistance. And if you look up
analogous :Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy
You would find tha right in the defenition you posted that its the same or similar as saying resistance of a DC circuit and anyone reading this who knows the definition of either would know what they are referring too.
not arguing just pointing out














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

"apparent opposition in an electrical circuit to the flow of an *alternating current* 
It's NOT the same, but it is similar. That's why it is referred to as impedance, not resistance. I'm not looking for an argument, & I know that in laymans terms most people will recognize the terminology. But, this is a technical forum & referring to impedance in a DC ckt, by definition, is not technically correct.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by 15DGR V6 at 10:56 PM 11-12-2003_


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_
It's NOT the same, but it is similar. That's why it is referred to as impedance, not resistance. I'm not looking for an argument, & I know that in laymans terms most people will recognize the terminology. But, this is a technical forum & referring to impedance in a DC ckt, by definition, is not technically correct.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I was just pointing out that even in your definition it was saying they are interchangeble. Also if you were to look up other definitions from other sources you would find that some define it as resistance in flow, no specifics for an AC or DC circuit, so technically since this is a techincal forum







it would have been used correctly so far.
However saying that is why its impedance and not resistance is kind of silly. By saying that you are saying that you are not allowed to have two words for one thing we would not be able to say we have a car or an automobile, we would have to chose one or the other.


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

Of course, everyone here knows the wave equation for circuits, right?


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## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

A definition is a definition. You're starting to sound like a politician trying to manipulate definitions of words to defend your actions.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_A definition is a definition. You're starting to sound like a politician trying to manipulate definitions of words to defend your actions.









I am not trying to manipulate I am trying to point out that when looking up words in a dictionary that you will often find several definitions. If you want to get real technical (again this is a technical forum







) then by offering only the one defenition that supports your "cause" you are being more like a politician.
here is a definition copied directly from dictionary.com, which also has the exact same one you posted, but this one was a little further down.
impedance
n : a material's opposition to the flow of electric current; measured in ohms [syn: electric resistance, electrical resistance, resistance, resistivity, ohmic resistance]

so again by definition the use of impedance so far has been correct!


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## durksterVR6 (Aug 11, 2001)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*

Quote :"If the runs with the system connected produce more power/torque than without the system connected, and the increase is measurably outside the variance caused by the dyno, then it can't be argued. This is just why I don't think two dyno runs (especially on our 1.8Ts) would prove anything since the motors can produce different results on different dyno runs (this can be argued as well).
Three dyno runs with and without the system connected (each) ... SOLD to the highest bidder .... "

FWIW : I am not going to do more runs than I need to just to prove my 17$ cables and connectors are good parts.
With that said though I will be probably do some reasonably extended back to back runs with my ride once the REVO big turbo code is released : ( for tuning purposes )
If the opportunity presents itself ( timewise) I wll definitely try to slip this in.
But to be honest it really is no skin off my nose for someone to believe or call BS on both the effectiveness of the mod and the quality of the cable I chose to use. 
I am pretty sure someone else will get to this before me but if I am in a position to do this ( buying DYNO time as opposed to paying per pull ) and it isnt going to cost me any extra, well thats great.
Dont look for this to happen anytime soon from me , the code probably wont be ready till the new year and I live a long ways away from the relevant tuner and dyno.
Also FWIW : I will be running with a decent FMIC so I should be seeing reasonably consistent dynos and not too much heatsoak related loss.
I wont be replying back to this thread until I have some numbers as it seems we are somewhat in the dead horse whipping zone.


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (durksterVR6)*

You seem to think I'm attacking this mod, and directing the dyno post to you. You are wrong in this.
I simply pointed out that seeing increases of 6WHP, 4WHP, and say 6WHP with the system connected, and then seeing 5WHP variation without the system connected, it is hard to justify that there are tangible gains, simply from statistics. Anyone can do these dyno runs, not just people waiting on the Revo big turbo code.


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## durksterVR6 (Aug 11, 2001)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*

Not at all, I am simply explaining that I may be in a position to have the "right conditions" : 
ie : someone pounding out multiple runs on a dyno and getting consistent results prior to applying the mod then rerunning post mod on the same day and dyno" 
my point was : It is going to get pretty expensive just doing it for the sole purpose of proving or disproving the effectiveness of this.
I am not taking this personally , I really do want to help the community but I am one of the many people on here who is not a tuner with free access to a dyno.
I am simply explaining that I will try to see if my tuning sessions can fit this in, but I for one cannot afford to drop $1XX + a hour just to prove or disprove this.
also wasnt the run that was made on a NA VR6 ( the test case) as follows :
1st run produced X hp ( no grounding)
2nd run produced X +5hp (grounding) 
If that was a turbo car and the runs were done the other way around ( grounded then ungrounded) would not everyone would be saying "heatsoak caused the output to drop on the second run and the grounding mod is not measurable due to heatsoak variances" ?
( this was the main reason I mentioned the FMIC I would be using)
from memory ( my old 95 GTI ) VR6's also dont start making 'more' power once they get past a certain temperature.. they tend to make less.
someone feel free to correct me on this as perhaps my memory is failing me.








Anyways I DO understand your desire to have a battery of tests performed to be sure that what you are seeing isnt an anomaly.
I will reiterate : 
I will try to help out if there is still interest but I wont be able to do this before the new year.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
BTW I wonder how many intakes have been sold to VR6 owners that tuners market with a virtually indentical dyno sheet to the test case , methinks plenty.
FRG SMIC anyone ?



_Modified by durksterVR6 at 3:02 AM 11-13-2003_


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Raman Gain* »_
I simply pointed out that seeing increases of 6WHP, 4WHP, and say 6WHP with the system connected, and then seeing 5WHP variation without the system connected, it is hard to justify that there are tangible gains, simply from statistics. Anyone can do these dyno runs, not just people waiting on the Revo big turbo code.

The gains are made on a 24v Vr6 6 speed. Vr6's are a little bit more stable on runs, as they're not forced induced. Therefore they're not subject to such a harsh increase/decrease of power that a forced induced car would receive. Second, if you look at the dyno, you can clearly see that there is an increase due to a certain variable. Look how linear it is. If you want me to show you a difference of horsepower dyno (ie >5hp) I can show you that. 
Trust me, I was right there when he did the dyno. The runs were back to back, and I watched him connect them. I would appreciate the autheticity of the dyno not to be picked apart. It's frustrating when you try to come up with evidence and then in the simpliest form it's questions.







IM the guy if you don't believe it. 



_Modified by Seanathan` at 9:08 PM 11-12-2003_


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Gatorfreak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gatorfreak* »_ That, alone, made it worth it for me. I didn't do the tranny ground though. From the pics, I wasn't 100% sure which one ya'll are talking about. 

Again, you *need* the tranny ground. So far your system is incomplete. If your not sure where the tranny ground is, IM me and I'll walk you through it so you can find it.


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
Again, you *need* the tranny ground. So far your system is incomplete. If your not sure where the tranny ground is, IM me and I'll walk you through it so you can find it. 

Why do you keep insisting that people NEED this ground? They really don't, it helps, but if it is not used it doesn't render this modification useless.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Why do you keep insisting that people NEED this ground? They really don't, it helps, but if it is not used it doesn't render this modification useless.









I've explained this over and over again.







You NEED this ground because otherwise there is no point of doing this. The whole point is to lower the resistance, and create a cleaner ground. 
I think people are misunderstanding this whole thing. When I say try your own points, I don't mean wherever you feel like for all the points. I mean for a couple. For example here are the points you cannot change (in no particular order): 
*Negative Terminal (x2)
*Tranny ground point
Here are the points that you also need, but you can try different points on the surrounding area: 
*Passenger Fender
*Driver Fender
*Point on block
*Centralized Point

So when I say, try your own points, i mean: try different points on the block, try a different point on the fender, try a central point. But you need to have those points. You can add points if you feel like it, such as the people adding the coilpack ground. I hope I cleared this up and didn't make it more confusing


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
I've explained this over and over again.







You NEED this ground because otherwise there is no point of doing this. The whole point is to lower the resistance, and create a cleaner ground. 
I think people are misunderstanding this whole thing. When I say try your own points, I don't mean wherever you feel like for all the points. I mean for a couple. For example here are the points you cannot change (in no particular order): 
*Negative Terminal (x2)
*Tranny ground point
Here are the points that you also need, but you can try different points on the surrounding area: 
*Passenger Fender
*Driver Fender
*Point on block
*Centralized Point

So when I say, try your own points, i mean: try different points on the block, try a different point on the fender, try a central point. But you need to have those points. You can add points if you feel like it, such as the people adding the coilpack ground. I hope I cleared this up and didn't make it more confusing









I still don't see the reason why. I completely understand that you need a negative terminal connection (why did you have the 'x2' by your example above?







) But I' not comprehending why the tranny ground is essential? 
As long as you have connections from grounding points around the engine comparment to the negative terminal on the battery you are making use of the ideology of this mod. I don't see in anyway why the tranny is mandatory. It's just another branch of the 'star' ground this mod creates. Repeating that 'you need to do this' over and over doesn't explain why to me.
I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong, but it makes no sense to me why it should be mandatory






















Can anyone else chime in? Am I the only one who doesn't see this has a mandatory connection?


_Modified by judoGTI at 11:52 PM 11-12-2003_


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_
Impedance is its' own unit of measure. IT IS NOT a measure of resistance!
This is where you are not correct in saying impedance=resistance. I know that you are have quite a bit of technical knowledge, but you are out of your league on electrical techical info. Take this to IM & i'll give you my credentials. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

you are the one that told me that a definition is a definition, so I post a definition that clearly states that one its resistance and two its in a measure of ohms. So I really dont' care what your credentials are if you are going to tell me that I have to use a definition I have provided one that supports what I am saying can also hold true.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_
Impedance is its' own unit of measure. IT IS NOT a measure of resistance!
This is where you are not correct in saying impedance=resistance. I know that you are have quite a bit of technical knowledge, but you are out of your league on electrical techical info. Take this to IM & i'll give you my credentials. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Impedence is derived from resistance, and is still measure in ohm, the units would be ohms.
for example the book Electronic Components, A complete Reference for Project builders by Delton T horn, starts the section on impedence by saying (page 96)

We have thre basic types of resistance, one for each of the three passive component types:
-Resistance(DC)-resistor;
-Capacitive reactance- capacitor; and
-inductive reactance
Skip ahead to page 98,
You have a chart (figure 4-4)
It’s a right angle triangle bottom is B DC resistance, left side A is a inductive reactance, hypotenuse is C impedance, again all measured in OHMs ( a unit of resistance)
A and B are the same length so that then means that you can follow the simple formula
Csquared=Asquared+Bsquared
So to derive the impedance you must have A and B
So back to page 96:
A dc voltage is only affected by the dc resistance. To a dc signal, inductive reactance looks like a dead short (zero resistance), and capacitive reactance looks like an open circuit (infinite resistance).

Back to the formula. A= Dc resistace, B= inductive reactance (or capacitive reactance) C= impedance
Lets plug in some sample numbers now A= say 3ohms. B= 0 ohms C= unknown
So we have Csquared=3squared+0sqaured
The 0sqaured drops out so you are left with Csqaured=3squared
Take the square root of both sides of the equation and you are left with C=3ohms
3ohms was the DC resistance, so you now have DC resistance (in ohms)= impedance( in ohms) in a DC circuit.

So what was that about you saying its only in A/C and that impedance is not resistance?????


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
why did you have the 'x2' by your example above? 

x2= times two. 

_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
As long as you have connections from grounding points around the engine comparment to the negative terminal on the battery you are making use of the ideology of this mod. 

The only thing I can tell you is that it's an incomplete link. The point is to create less resistance by adding more grounds. I said this already. By adding all the links to the fenders, throttle body, etc. you're creating a chain. And you want to make sure you have the shortest routes possible. Which by using the original ground, that isn't going to create a short link, it will be using a long link. You need that central point and negative connected to that ground to create the shortest route possible and finishing off the linkage. But by relying on only the current ground isn't going to complete the chain. Thats all i can say. I am not going to wave a degree around (which I don't have anyway







). 
All I'm telling you is that it's incomplete link, and you're creating a longer route for it to travel. Think about it. With your thinking there shouldn't be a reason for using the negative terminal on the battery because it's already hooked up. Therefore we shouldn't need it.. Thats the type of thinking that I am reading. But I hope I helped..


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
x2= times two. 


Why two to the negative terminal? One is enough for a daisy chain of new grounds. One for each ground if you are using the star pattern.


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
The only thing I can tell you is that it's an incomplete link. The point is to create less resistance by adding more grounds. I said this already. By adding all the links to the fenders, throttle body, etc. you're creating a chain. And you want to make sure you have the shortest routes possible. Which by using the original ground, that isn't going to create a short link, it will be using a long link. You need that central point and negative connected to that ground to create the shortest route possible and finishing off the linkage. But by relying on only the current ground isn't going to complete the chain. Thats all i can say. I am not going to wave a degree around (which I don't have anyway







). 
All I'm telling you is that it's incomplete link, and you're creating a longer route for it to travel. Think about it. With your thinking there shouldn't be a reason for using the negative terminal on the battery because it's already hooked up. Therefore we shouldn't need it.. Thats the type of thinking that I am reading. But I hope I helped..










Ok, I think we are somewhat on the same page. I agree people should do the tranny, but it's not necessary. UNLESS, they are creating a new ground connected in series, in that case every single on is required, because not having one will break the chain and connection to the negative terminal.
The best way to do this mod is to use the star pattern, and each new ground cable will have it's own connection to the negative terminal (in your example this will be your 'central point'). This will create the shortest route for each ground, and make it completely independent if other grounds fail for some reason. This way people can choose to use one ground, three grounds, or one hundreds grounds. Each individual ground will improve (reduce) the resistence independently.


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## stuex (Feb 18, 2001)

*Re: Re: (judoGTI)*

I agree with you. Surely the most electrical parts which need a good ground are in/on/around the head. I ran a coilpack and throttle body ground direct to the negative battery post. Not sure what difference running grounds from the fenders is going to make... what sensors are connected to the fenders?
If electricity always takes the path with the least resistance, then if I ground from the coilpacks and TB to the battery directly, fender, tranny and block grounds won't be so important, right?


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## illcaptive (Dec 18, 2001)

*grounding*

i was reading early in the post that someone mentioned that a ground wire to the alternators casing should be done too. has anyone done this ground yet? if so where did you bolt it?


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## mancuso (May 20, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
I'm not sure why this is directed at me...









I'm sorry, I just saw this. I wasn't directing "There's a sucker born every minute." - P. T. Barnum" to you. I just hit the reply button above your post.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (stuex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stuex* »_Not sure what difference running grounds from the fenders is going to make... what sensors are connected to the fenders?
If electricity always takes the path with the least resistance, then if I ground from the coilpacks and TB to the battery directly, fender, tranny and block grounds won't be so important, right?















Come'on guys. You need to create a shorter ground between each sides of the chassis as well... concidering the fender is the best points without ripping them up, that's what you use. There are NO sensors on the fenders.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Why two to the negative terminal? One is enough for a daisy chain of new grounds. One for each ground if you are using the star pattern.

One would not be ideal because you are only creating a shorter link to the central point, OR the negative terminal, whichever you choose. You still will not have the shorter point from the later. 

_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
The best way to do this mod is to use the star pattern, and each new ground cable will have it's own connection to the negative terminal (in your example this will be your 'central point'). This will create the shortest route for each ground, and make it completely independent if other grounds fail for some reason. 
 

I guess we're on the same page







. The thing is that the central point needs to be connected to the tranny point, otherwise it will follow the stock connection making all the other points (fender, tb, etc) useless. So with the thinking we're going with I _guess_ you don't need the negative terminal point, but to receive the best gains, it would be worth it. So I think we're following eachother now http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *JudoGTI* »_
This way people can choose to use one ground, three grounds, or one hundreds grounds. Each individual ground will improve (reduce) the resistence independently.









Thats EXACTLY what i'm getting at! My point is with the amount of grounds we're using, the tranny to the negative would be ideal. But not necessary. So I guess I should not have said "HAVE TO". I should've said, "HIGHLY SUGGEST".











_Modified by Seanathan` at 9:16 PM 11-13-2003_


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*

Question... Does gold plating on the terminals matter? I found a local electronics supply store that sells standard finish terminals for dirt cheap. You can buy in bulk.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (hungalicious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hungalicious* »_Question... Does gold plating on the terminals matter? I found a local electronics supply store that sells standard finish terminals for dirt cheap. You can buy in bulk.

IMHO, gold plating would be better, but not necessary. I'm using gold plating on my wires.


----------



## illcaptive (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*

does any one have the answer on the alternator housing ground?


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## soulman978 (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: (illcaptive)*


_Quote, originally posted by *illcaptive* »_does any one have the answer on the alternator housing ground?









Do it. I can't hurt you. It can only help.


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: (Raman Gain)*


_Quote »_...seeing increases of 6WHP, 4WHP, and say 6WHP with the system connected, and then seeing 5WHP variation without the system connected, it is hard to justify that there are tangible gains, simply from statistics.

This man deserves a Friday







for pointing out the _not so obvious_. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ffej0427 (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Electron Man)*

grounding point on tranny if anyone cares anymore.. I still care


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## iboozer (Oct 13, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*

Any chance we have anyone somewhat specialized in auto electronics? I understand the desire to have good grounds at all points, but creating a ground loop could be worse.
A ground loop is caused when an electronic device has some voltage potential between it's DC ground and chassis ground or signal ground. This happens frequently with stereo equipment, for example when there is some potential difference between the shield of an RCA cable run to an amp, and the amp's chassis or DC ground.
How are some of these sensors wired? Do they have signal grounds seperate from the chassis grounds?
The idea sounds valid, but I think the procedure can maybe be a bit more strategical than running cable to every point with a bolt that will take a cable. I don't want to run 20 feet of cable all over my engine bay, but I'm certainly interested in fixing any bad ground points that currently exsist.


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: Re: (iboozer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iboozer* »_Any chance we have anyone somewhat specialized in auto electronics? I understand the desire to have good grounds at all points, but creating a ground loop could be worse.
A ground loop is caused when an electronic device has some voltage potential between it's DC ground and chassis ground or signal ground. This happens frequently with stereo equipment, for example when there is some potential difference between the shield of an RCA cable run to an amp, and the amp's chassis or DC ground.
How are some of these sensors wired? Do they have signal grounds seperate from the chassis grounds?
The idea sounds valid, but I think the procedure can maybe be a bit more strategical than running cable to every point with a bolt that will take a cable. I don't want to run 20 feet of cable all over my engine bay, but I'm certainly interested in fixing any bad ground points that currently exsist.

yeah but the 'signal ground' _is_ the chassis ground. Everything runs off one ground point (the engine/chassis/whatever) which these new 'grounding wires' assist in making the same potential.







I'm not sure I see any ground loops in this DC system.


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Just a quick FYI...
I got 19 miles to the gallon after the grounding mod. Not that good I know, but it was 90% city miles and 95% HARD driving. 
Any other torque lovers out there have silmilar numbers???










_Modified by M Diddy at 8:46 PM 11-18-2003_


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## 4string (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

One of the most important grounds to the engine management system you left out. The main ground for the ECU under the cowl. Otherwise excellent post! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Grounding the engine and all the sensor grounds in the engine wiring harness to the battery is a definite plus. Have been doing this to my Scirocco's for years.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (4string)*

hm.. never thought about grounding out the ecu...


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## hondaslayer (Apr 13, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

are you serious?


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_hm.. never thought about grounding out the ecu...

Be VERY careful about this. Unless the ECU is giving specific problems relating to power issues, what is the point? It will pick up some processing power? I believe this is the classic case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" when it comes to messing with ECU grounding.


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Raman Gain)*

?
The ECU ground is going to be the same ground as everything else...I'd be tempted to trace the ground wire from the ECU unit and see where it goes. I have a hunch it's a 14 gauge (or whatever) wire that goes directly to a connector somewhere that's got a solid ground from the 'grounding points mod' already.
Grounding the ECU is a good idea, but it's probably already got a good clean ground!


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## 4string (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*

If you look at a wiring diagram there is a common ground for the ECU and components that are all crimped together. Not a good idea. It is a way for the manufacturer to save on wiring costs. The injectors all work off a switched ground that is SUPPLIED by the ECU. More of a concern I believe is the way the wires to the ECU are attached to the individual terminals. 2001-2002, VW got cheap and instead of crimping the wire ti the terminals they wanted to save money and the terminals just pierce the wire like a 'scotch lock'. In 2003 after numerous mysterious running problems they went back to crimping the wires. I have had to repair numerous wiring harnesses to the ECU by replacing every terminal with a crimped connector. It isn't fun believe me. Also the main ECU ground is a small wire, needs to be bigger just like alll the grounding wires in the above DIY.


_Modified by 4string at 1:15 PM 11-19-2003_


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (flanders)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flanders* »_Grounding the ECU is a good idea, but it's probably already got a good clean ground!

If it didn't, the car would let you know via DTCs, bad performance, etc.


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## 4string (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Raman Gain)*

I have worked on VW's that had loose grounds and not display any DTC's.


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## 4string (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Seanathan`)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan`* »_
IMHO, gold plating would be better, but not necessary. I'm using gold plating on my wires. 

having two disimilar types of metal touching each other actuallly promotes corrosion. Rule of thumb is that two terminals connected together should be made of the same material


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## TurboZen (Oct 15, 2000)

*Re: Re: (4string)*


_Quote, originally posted by *4string* »_
having two disimilar types of metal touching each other actuallly promotes corrosion. Rule of thumb is that two terminals connected together should be made of the same material

Gold doesn't have that problem though. non ferus (sp)


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## flanders (Apr 5, 2001)

*Re: Re: (TurboZen)*

4string -- any suggestions on how to give the ECU a better ground, aside from changing the connectors (which I can imagine being a nightmare!)?


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## 4string (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: Re: (flanders)*

What I do is find the ground terminal of the ECU. Terminal 1 (it is a 2.5mm brown wire with a red tracer on a 2003 1.8t) of the 121 pin multiplug for the ECU and add an additional ground wire from there to the negative side of the battery. Can't go wrong.


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## Gatorfreak (Jan 14, 2001)

*Gas mileage*

Well I've had time now to run through an entire tank of gas. I haven't gone back and done the tranny ground yet but I still noticed some nice gas mileage improvement. I typically get 24 mpg. This tank I got 27 mpg! Best mileage I've ever had on a tank (in normal city driving).


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: Gas mileage (Gatorfreak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gatorfreak* »_Well I've had time now to run through an entire tank of gas. I haven't gone back and done the tranny ground yet but I still noticed some nice gas mileage improvement. I typically get 24 mpg. This tank I got 27 mpg! Best mileage I've ever had on a tank (in normal city driving).

How many miles do you have on the odometer? 24 mpg is actually on the low side of fuel efficiency to begin with, especially with a manual tranny. My "loaded" 1.8T NB (auto) gives an average of 26.5 mpg (25% city - 75% hiway) on 91 octane. Once a while, it's gotten into the low 27s. But even with mostly city driving (lots of stop-n-go's), I've haven't gone below 25 mpg for a very long time.
In any event, a 12.5% increase in gas mileage is impressive!!! How many others are experiencing similiar bumps in gas mileage??? 
I'm finding this (poor grounding) a bit difficult to believe since it would surely indicate a big screw-up on the part of VW engineers. 


_Modified by Cadenza_7o at 2:22 PM 11-25-2003_


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## aychseven (Oct 31, 2003)

*Re: Gas mileage (Cadenza_7o)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cadenza_7o* »_I'm finding this (poor grounding) a bit difficult to believe since it would surely indicate a big screw-up on the part of VW engineers.

it seems to be a common problem across many makes. the wrx guys are finding better performance with better grounding as well.


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## TDItwist (Oct 20, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hondaslayer)*

Damn, this mod is OLD SKEWL! It's a little late in the game, but I know us Mk1/2 peeps have been (or should have been!) doing this forever! Props to Sean for at least trying something simple and basic. It does make sense when you think about it. Although I must admit I don't fully understand the looped EMF theory, can't we all use just a little more ground?
BTW, from what I have been told/taught , the ECU should be self grounding and by creating another path to it (for a ground) you opening it up to more voltage spike potential.


_Modified by TDItwist at 7:00 PM 11-25-2003_


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## Nonlinear Optics (May 14, 2003)

*Re: Gas mileage (Gatorfreak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gatorfreak* »_Well I've had time now to run through an entire tank of gas. I haven't gone back and done the tranny ground yet but I still noticed some nice gas mileage improvement. I typically get 24 mpg. This tank I got 27 mpg! Best mileage I've ever had on a tank (in normal city driving).


My mileage shot up 2MPG on the last tank of gas as well. I haven't done this mod, and it was the same driving I do, same style. It's been colder outside, the engine is more efficient, better mileage (keep in mind this is Florida, not the North with the altered gas between the seasons).


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## 4string (Sep 26, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TDItwist)*

How does a ECU self ground itself?? Good grounding circuits help eliminate voltage spikes. All the old school VWs needed good grounding to the engine block because most of the sensors (one wire) on the engine, used the engine block as the ground. All the 3/4 generation VWs use separete ground wires for all the engine sensors so the block grounding is not as important to the engine management system. Important engine block grounding helps the starter, alternator and ignition system components function better. 
_Quote, originally posted by *TDItwist* »_
BTW, from what I have been told/taught , the ECU should be self grounding and by creating another path to it (for a ground) you opening it up to more voltage spike potential.

_Modified by TDItwist at 7:00 PM 11-25-2003_


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TDItwist)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TDItwist* »_Damn, this mod is OLD SKEWL! It's a little late in the game, but I know us Mk1/2 peeps have been (or should have been!) doing this forever! Props to Sean for at least trying something simple and basic. 

hehe http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thanks man! Did I meet you at the Pavillions a while back? Also, glad to see you're sick of it "here" too.







I'll be back to Mass soon. 



_Modified by Seanathan` at 11:09 PM 11-25-2003_


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## elmo32256 (Apr 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (4string)*

very true....this is how aircraft engineers came up with thermocouplers. (same principle)


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

Phew! That's alot of reading.
I will be doing this mod soon, but I will share some observations for those who are interested.

1. Since we are talking about the grounding side(-) of the circuit, it should be noted that in a good sound system set-up, the ground is very important to a good clean power signal. The same should apply to any electrical system, including an engine and all of it's components.
Summary = Grounding is good.
2. Our vehicles already have the needed components to operate effectively,.....but to maximize costs, they are not always installed to maximize efficiency. Once again, a little extra ground is never a bad thing.
Summary = Grounding is good.
3. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, so, given the choice between a nicely braided copper wire connected directly to the battery ground or, a head, block, tranny, and long ground wire,.....which route sounds easier? 
In actual fact, the ground current will still flow to all of these other places anyways, but because it has more, and shorter, ways to travel it's stength is reduced(a good thing). So, just because it's quicker doesn't mean that it's the only way,....this is why I think that 4 gauge wire may be overkill.
It depends on how much energy we are trying to quickly reroute,....and this I believe is car specific. Read #6 for details.
No matter what we need, it doesn't need to be much,....because all we are doing is helping an existing 12v(13.8) ground system,...not replacing it. A small amp of 100watts can run off of a 4 gauge wire! How much ground do you really need in such a small distance(the engine bay) to accompany the existing ground wires?
Summary = 8, 10 or 12 gauge is probably more than good enough, but to each his own.

4. Benefits of a good ground are just that, a good ground. You either have one or you don't. Results will inevitably vary from one car to another, not just because of the cars unique differences, but also because of the vast possibilities of mods and electical components that we add to them. Your vehicle is one big rolling ground, and every time you add a radar detector, a stereo, an amp, an led, a driving light, or a cell phone charger to that system,.....it changes the electrical properties of that ground system,....even if only slightly. 
The benefits of a good ground connection will have bigger effects on those who already have problems, and will be less(if any) for those who have solid grounds(and less electrical ground interference) to begin with. Also, because many of us have modified our engines, plugs, ECU's, etc. do provide more power or efficiency, we have created an even bigger strain on a factory ground system that wasn't designed to handle these loads. So if you are sure you already have a good ground, then you might not see any improvements,.....but if if you don't? Well,...better safe than sorry.
Summary = Grounding is good (better for more modified cars)
5. Back in the eighties, I used to be heavily into CB radio. I also drove an old 77' Chevy Nova, which is essentially one big huge chunk of rolling steel. Anyways, even with all that metal, and a simple 4 watt CB radio, in order for me to improve my radio signals I had to add grounding straps under the car! All these were were little rubber straps with imbedded wire, that dragged on the pavement under the car in order to better ground it. It made an audible difference in reception and transmission. Does anyone out there remember these?
Summary = Grounding is good (.....and I feel old)
6. Results may vary for this modification. If a modified car doesn't have a clean spark, but this mod helps prevent misfires and weak combustion, then that car might see improved fuel economy.
But, if a car that already has a consistent spark is only limited in spark output, a better ground may provide more power,....and as a result, worse economy. It all depends on the car itself and its electrical components.
The same applies to stereo noise interference. A stock system may not notice any improvements, but a customized, high powered, multi-amp, boom box may see a dramatic reduction in audible electrical noise. It depends on the car.
Summary = Results may be car specific
7. The Vortex is a wealth is good and bad information. In the end it's up to you to decide which is which. But grounding is nothing is nothing new,.......this is a proven fix and improvement that has been around for years.
Summary = It's your car, and your choice.
8. It's can't hurt anything.
Or can it?

*If there is a short in your system, and you accidentally charge your chassis,....will all of that electrical energy simply dissipate? Or will it fire directly into you ground near the FPR, or your Colipacks because of that nice fat 4 gauge wire you just hooked up to it? *
Maybe there _IS_ some method to that madness of making the ground pass through ALL of the components in the system instead of the short way back to a closed circuit?
This another reason why i'll be grounding with a smaller wire.
I am not knowledgeable enough to know for sure if the vast number of electrical sensors and gizmos in our modern cars have been calibrated to to compensate for varible ground resistances or not,....but it doesn't seem like a likely scenario. A ground is a simple and elemental part of an electrical system,....it's not rocket science.
Summary = You be the judge
In the end, this is still the Vortex, and this is still just one person's opinion. Take what you want, flame the rest. 
It's my .02, and no, you can't borrow it.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (feuerdog)*

Very interesting views http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Glad you took your time. But this will not hurt your system one bit. First, if you already have a short, about 80% of the time, you'll notice something right off the bat. And second, I'm running 4awg wire and I haven't had any issues, but I would like to buy some 8awg to see if there is actually a difference. And as for sensors, I wouldn't worry about blowing any with an extra charge.


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

I think he's saying that suppose you screw up next week and accidently charge your block or something with say, jumper cables. Will you cause even more damage because of the 4G wire leading everywhere?
Very interesting read tho - I'll probably give it a try with some 8G wire.
Khyron


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Khyron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Khyron* »_I think he's saying that suppose you screw up next week and accidently charge your block or something with say, jumper cables. Will you cause even more damage because of the 4G wire leading everywhere?
Very interesting read tho - I'll probably give it a try with some 8G wire.
Khyron


Well in that case, I doubt jumper cables are going to do any damage, infact imho having the grounds would most likely help. But thats just my opinion..someone prove me wrong


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## UKAUSSI (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

Have been away from the boards for a while and found this thread interesting.
I have always had poor gas mileage (19-20mpg) and had really weird reading from the Ignition Timing on my VAG-COM (011 is one of them) which showed eratic readings.
Gas mileage jumped to 22-24mpg when I had the coils replaced by VW but returned back to 20mpg about a month later.
Figured I would spend $50 on one of the predone kits from dragracing.com and try to do another VAG-COM & ground reading with voltmeter before & after the mod.


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (UKAUSSI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UKAUSSI* »_I have always had poor gas mileage (19-20mpg) and had really weird reading from the Ignition Timing on my VAG-COM (011 is one of them) which showed eratic readings. Gas mileage jumped to 22-24mpg when I had the coils replaced by VW but returned back to 20mpg about a month later.
Figured I would spend $50 on one of the predone kits from dragracing.com and try to do another VAG-COM & ground reading with voltmeter before & after the mod. 

Interesting... I wonder if the few VWs that reported poor gas mileage are caused by bad or insufficient grounding. 
Do let us know what you find out...


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (UKAUSSI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UKAUSSI* »_Have been away from the boards for a while and found this thread interesting.
I have always had poor gas mileage (19-20mpg) and had really weird reading from the Ignition Timing on my VAG-COM (011 is one of them) which showed eratic readings.
Gas mileage jumped to 22-24mpg when I had the coils replaced by VW but returned back to 20mpg about a month later.
Figured I would spend $50 on one of the predone kits from dragracing.com and try to do another VAG-COM & ground reading with voltmeter before & after the mod.


Good deal UKAUSSI, I know we can get some reliable measurements from you, just based on some of the other diagnostic work you've done on the vortex.
What i'd like to see is whether or not a 4 gauge wire is needed or not. I realize it doesn't hurt to have some ease of flow there,....but it's not like we talking about a serious amount of electricity here.
A smaller 12 gauge wire should be enough to stabilize any resistance imbalances that occur in the factory parts.
Also: We need to have the readings done while the engine is running(that should be possible, shouldn't it?). It's a 12v system when it's just sitting there,...but while it's running it's usually up near 13.8v,......this will change the characteristics of the ground a little from not-running.


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## germanrox (Mar 30, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan`)*

up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## schtebie (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (germanrox)*

kind of a stupid question...but do the bolts used for grounding hold anything together? or are they used specifically for grounding? i don't want to remove a bolt to find that something has fallen apart! please help!


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## IY boy (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (schtebie)*

depends where you choose to ground. i used some bolts that hold little things together but it all went back together the same way I took it off.
BTW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for grounding kits. I def. feel the gain.


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## schtebie (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

this is what i have...hopefully it's ok.
Passenger fender -----> Throttle Body
Throttle Bod -----> FPR
FPR -----> Ground on Tranny
FPR -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
Driver's fender -----> Negative Terminal on Battery


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (schtebie)*

Perfect job! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thats exactly what I would recommend doing.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (schtebie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *schtebie* »_this is what i have...hopefully it's ok.
Passenger fender -----> Throttle Body
Throttle Bod -----> FPR
FPR -----> Ground on Tranny
FPR -----> Negative Terminal on Battery
Driver's fender -----> Negative Terminal on Battery

I assume that by *FPR*, you are referring to a bolt in the vicinity of the FPR.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaRed* »_
I assume that by *FPR*, you are referring to a bolt in the vicinity of the FPR.

Yes. the FPR is just a reference point


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## Wak (Dec 8, 2002)

http://www.wak-tt.com/mods/eearthing/eearthing.htm
Did mine on the weekand, the main one being the coilpack to battery and am very happy with the improvement.
I may take it off and measure the potential on the weekend and let you know the difference.


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## wolfier (Mar 2, 2002)

*Rust?*

Does grounding increase the chance of getting rusts? I know this question is sort of absurd but running electricity through the body improperly can speed up rusting...


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

*Re: Rust? (wolfier)*

No,....because the entire vehicle is grounded anyways, all you are really doing is distributing the electrical energy.
Mixing metal contacts will probably cause more corrosion problems than anything else,.....but that is easily preventable and visible over time.

On another note:
One of the recent Auto Sound magazines just did a Hyper Ground type install on a car (non-VW), and they dynoed some 12+ HP and TQ gains over stock!
This dookie works. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Rust? (feuerdog)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## IY boy (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: Rust? (Seanathan`)*

Hey would any of you guys or gals here that have experience with grounding kits like to post your experiences in this thread, http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1153324 There are too many people that dont know what they are talking about when it comes to grounding kits. It would be nice to hear some more first hand experience whether it is good or bad. Thanks!


_Modified by cae92283 at 3:45 PM 12-15-2003_


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## B95P (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Rust? (cae92283)*

As soon as my parts from partsexpress get here I will







. One for my car and one for my GF's 98 200 SX SE-R


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## swett (Jun 28, 2000)

*Re: Rust? (B95P)*

I don't remember seeing any posts by Passat or A4 guys in this post. Should the ideal grounding points be the same? Where would the tranny ground be? 
-Ian


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: Rust? (swett)*


_Quote, originally posted by *swett* »_I don't remember seeing any posts by Passat or A4 guys in this post. Should the ideal grounding points be the same? Where would the tranny ground be? 
-Ian

Honestly, any grounding point on the engine should be sufficient. Since the intake manifold, valve cover, head, block and tranny are BOLTED together, there is sufficient grounding between them. The important point is to ground the negative post of the battery to the engine and the engine to the body. But for good measure, I also ran a wire from the throttle body to the head/valve cover.


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## 337drew (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hondaslayer)*

Bump because everyone should read through this thread... Its a great little DIY mod


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (337drew)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

Finally, some pics. Basically, I am going from the body (passenger strut tower) to the head to the battery (negative ground) to the body (driver strut tower). I don't think I need to add more than that, but I may.
































Here are some pics of the kit I hooked up to JettaRed with the supercharger. I added a grounding kit to try and reduce misfires. Here are some pics. I'm having misfires on cylinder 3 (no cel though) at idle. We'll see what happens or if perfomance improves.
The wires are 4 gauge with gold plated eye terminals. I am going from the body (passenger strut tower) to the supercharger, and from the head (lower intake manifold) to the battery (negative terminal), and from the battery to the body (driver strut tower).


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## HI PSI GTI (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (JettaRed)*

im my experiences with car audio and such it is a rule of thumb to keep your ground path as short as possible...otherwise there is to much resistance in the wire causing all this performance gain to be in your heads


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (HI PSI GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HI PSI GTI* »_im my experiences with car audio and such it is a rule of thumb to keep your ground path as short as possible...otherwise there is to much resistance in the wire causing all this performance gain to be in your heads

That's why I grounded my head to the body and the battery!








Come on! How much resistance is there in 4 AWG wire over a couple of feet?


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (HI PSI GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HI PSI GTI* »_im my experiences with car audio and such it is a rule of thumb to keep your ground path as short as possible...otherwise there is to much resistance in the wire causing all this performance gain to be in your heads

Your confusing matters here. In a stereo system you want the shortest ground beause of the current flowing through it, the longer the wire the greater the gauge, same as with the positive going into it.

With the addition of adding grounding wires you are not increasing the length of the ground its similar to increasing the gauge to reduce resistance. ]
so no the performance gains are not in peoples heads, if its reducing the resistance in the ground system to the sensors it can and will work as people have reported.


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## dpak4eva (Jan 1, 2003)

hmm


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## 1.infiniT (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (chris86vw)*

great read. Bumpity.
I get real poor gas mileage so I'm gonna try this too and see what happens.
BTW ---ANybody try linking to the Alternator yet??????


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (1.infiniT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.infiniT* »_ BTW ---ANybody try linking to the Alternator yet??????

Nope.. My car isn't in my state right now.. so once it gets here I need to look for a bolt that is long enough..


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

any more reports of improved performance and/or gas mileage?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Cadenza_7o)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cadenza_7o* »_any more reports of improved performance and/or gas mileage?

Not yet. There is some stuff I want to try out when my car gets here.. I still don't have it. It's in California after a week of supposely being "shipped". I paid $825 for my car to sit in Cali..








Anyway, these are what I want to do when my car gets here regarding groundwires: 
1) Test the resistance w/o wires then with wires
2) Try to find a spot for the alternator to hook up groundwires
3) Relocate my battery and test the resistance w/o groundwires then with


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Cadenza_7o)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cadenza_7o* »_any more reports of improved performance and/or gas mileage?

Hard to say. I don't think my mileage has improved or changed. Plus, I never leave anything alone long enough to attribute anything to anything, other than Revo does this-->








I have added a 4th cable. On the back side of the engine *block* there are threaded holes that will accept an M8 bolt. I got an M8x20 bolt and attached the one end of a grounding cable to the block. The other end I attached to one of the empty studs coming out of the firewall (M6 nut) right under the weather strip. First, I removed some of the paint from the stud on the firewall with sand paper so I would have good metal to metal contact. All I can say is that my car is running stronger than ever.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (JettaRed)*

hmm interesting spot.. all i know is im going to have fun with my multimeter when i get to see my car


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## 1.infiniT (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

I just finished building my kit. Used 10 guage copper wire at 14 cents / ft. from home depot. It's insulated with oil, gasoline, and heat resistant coating. I think 10 guage will be sufficient as well as being more easily tucked away. Once I have it in for a few days, I'll report any mileage increase etc. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 337drew (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (1.infiniT)*

I installed the grounding mod over two weeks ago. I have noticed no increase in power, and no increase in gas mileage. I *may* have felt that my partial throttle was smoother. But to be perfectly honest, it’s turned out to be another placebo just like the green top coolant sensor.
Running Highboost 2/Timing 4
Miles to a full tank before ~280
Miles to a full tank after ~the same
To be sure I have them installed correctly, I checked each of these grounding points with a digital multi-meter and they all had zero resistance. I used 8 guage wire.
passenger fender -> throttle body (distribution point)
throttle body -> coilpack ground
throttle body -> block (distribution point 2)
block -> tranny ground (yes it was the correct one)
block -> negative battery term
negative battery term -> driver's side fender
fallen victim to another vortex placebo


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

It's been stated before,......not all people will see improvements. 
It depends on other mods and driving style.
Some cars are blessed with competent grounding, some may not be.
The older the car, the heavier the electrical load, etc........ the more electrical resistance there will be too compensate for, and therefore a more noticable benefit.


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## 1.infiniT (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (337drew)*

I haven't put mine in yet, so I can only surmise, but there have been numerous threads about extreme differences in gas mileage between similar car models/years where no difference should exist ( even taking into consideration driving style). I really don't know why one person gets 250 miles/tank when another guy gets 400 on the same damn car. To me, improper grounding sounds like a very plausible and likely culprit. Not to mention, maybe after installing it, my driver side door will stop shocking the SH!T out of me.
Btw, my coolent sensor was replaced 2 years ago with the green top. Before it was replaced, my temp sensor light would go off virtually every morning and cold start was routine. After placing the green top in, no more issues at ALL. That's far from placebo.
The issue really lies in whether or not your vehicle has a problem. A problem free vehicle is not going to see performance increases from grounding or coolant sensors. But if it's faulty somehow, you will. BTW, VW is notorious for poor grounding and electrical problems.


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## [email protected] (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (1.infiniT)*

I too am getting prepared to do the grounding mod. However I had problems with the car not wanting to do a warm start after I got chipped. Took weeks of problem solving before discovering that the green top temp sensor needed to be replaced. Haven't had a bit of problems since. That was no placebo. I am looking forward to smoother ride with the grounding mod.


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## KoolAidKid (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (SMOOTH)*

I did all of it but the tranny and coil pack ground today. I must say the sensitivity of the DBW system at the pedal has increased. Before it seemed to be, need I say, notchey with what seemed to be dead zones in the pedal arc. Im sending the wife out in the morning to see what she thinks. 
Anyone know where the bolt would be on the 6 speed tranny to ground to?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (KoolAidKid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KoolAidKid* »_I did all of it but the tranny and coil pack ground today. I must say the sensitivity of the DBW system at the pedal has increased. Before it seemed to be, need I say, notchey with what seemed to be dead zones in the pedal arc. Im sending the wife out in the morning to see what she thinks. 
Anyone know where the bolt would be on the 6 speed tranny to ground to? 

Its most likely where the same point is for all the other trannies. follow your negative cable from the battery. It's going to go down under the battery, then head to the tranny. Just be patient and follow it.


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## IY boy (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan* »_
Its most likely where the same point is for all the other trannies. follow your negative cable from the battery. It's going to go down under the battery, then head to the tranny. Just be patient and follow it. 

What he said








This will help also, i think its the last picture on the page: http://vwroadtrip.peterbeers.n...d.htm


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## lsc2g (Feb 9, 2003)

I did this this weekend did the 6 points on first page. Idle seems to have smoothed out a bit but have only driven car for 30 minutes so can't know for sure. No idea on power either but meh for the 60 bucks CDN i spent no biggie.


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## KoolAidKid (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (1.infiniT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.infiniT* »_I just finished building my kit. Used 10 guage copper wire at 14 cents / ft. from home depot. It's insulated with oil, gasoline, and heat resistant coating. I think 10 guage will be sufficient as well as being more easily tucked away. Once I have it in for a few days, I'll report any mileage increase etc. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I almost went with 10 gauge but had some 8 at work. Anything over 10 is really overkill as far as im concerned. Cant wait to finish it this afternoon!


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## a2gtinut (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (KoolAidKid)*

This is just plain SILLLLLLYYYYYYY.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (a2gtinut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *a2gtinut* »_This is just plain SILLLLLLYYYYYYY.










Oh, you've done it? Sorry you didn't notice any improvement.


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## DSSA (Nov 20, 2003)

*Re: (feuerdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feuerdog* »_It's been stated before,......not all people will see improvements. 
It depends on other mods and driving style.
Some cars are blessed with competent grounding, some may not be.


That's the whole problem with this thread.
You will see *NO* gain if your car is grounded well in the 1st place. The only time you'll see a gain in anything is if a sensor(s) isn't getting a good ground in the 1st place.
Fortunately, for the people who push these "grounding kits", VW's wiring sucks from the factory, and I'm sure a lot of people doing this to VWs *will* see some sort of improvement. 
It's not a matter of these kits being "magic", it's a matter of them correcting VWs crappy wiring from the factory.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (DSSA)*

I actually noticed an improvement (though very minor) when I added the last cable going from the engine block to the firewall. Again, no great power gains, just smoother performance, especially if you're chipped.


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## BatesGTI (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Well after reading this post and many other one I decided I will try it my self. i figured all I have to lose is about 40 bucks and some time. All I have to say is wow. I don't know about power increase but the idle is dead smooth and also I took a trip to California and where I usually get 31MPG I actually got 34 MPG. That alone was worth it to me. So I would say as long as you can put some wires together I would say do it. Also I decided to solder the ends together to make a better connection.


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## TurboZen (Oct 15, 2000)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (KoolAidKid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KoolAidKid* »_
I almost went with 10 gauge but had some 8 at work. Anything over 10 is really overkill as far as im concerned. Cant wait to finish it this afternoon!

The smaller the number, the bigger the wire. 8 guage is more overkill (if overkill) than 10 guage. you probably were talking about 4 gauge.


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## KoolAidKid (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TurboZen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboZen* »_
The smaller the number, the bigger the wire. 8 guage is more overkill (if overkill) than 10 guage. you probably were talking about 4 gauge.

I should have said larger diameter(8,4,2,0,00). Kind of odd wording.


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (KoolAidKid)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Robo BeasTT (Nov 19, 2003)

TTT good info....
THX
Robo


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## dpak4eva (Jan 1, 2003)

*Re: (Robo BeasTT)*

i actually did not see any improvements. plus it seems like my headlights dim Easier now. whenever the fan starts to turn in the front, i see the headlights Dim Noticabily. as for gas mileage, its the Same. and power, cant feel, unless im some dyno machine.


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## SlowDalPangEe (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: (dpak4eva)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dpak4eva* »_i actually did not see any improvements. plus it seems like my headlights dim Easier now. whenever the fan starts to turn in the front, i see the headlights Dim Noticabily. as for gas mileage, its the Same. and power, cant feel, unless im some dyno machine. 

don't listen to this kid, he's a retard








K


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## dpak4eva (Jan 1, 2003)

*Re: (SlowDalPangEe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowDalPangEe* »_
don't listen to this kid, he's a retard








K

hahaha you Mother *Beep*!!


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## 1.infiniT (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: (dpak4eva)*

WEll my grounding kit has been in for 1 week. I have not really seen any improvement in smoothness, however, get this. I was getting near 300 miles per tank before putting the kit on, sometimes 330. This past tank of gas, I got no less than 400 miles out of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No bullsh!t.
I already saved the 5 dollars it cost me to make it and put it in


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: (1.infiniT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.infiniT* »_WEll my grounding kit has been in for 1 week. I have not really seen any improvement in smoothness, however, get this. I was getting near 300 miles per tank before putting the kit on, sometimes 330. This past tank of gas, I got no less than 400 miles out of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No bullsh!t.
I already saved the 5 dollars it cost me to make it and put it in









Good to hear the improvement. But are you using the same brand of gas?


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## 1.infiniT (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: (Cadenza_7o)*

yeah same exact gas, same plugs, same everything.


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

*Re: (feuerdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feuerdog* »_It's been stated before,......not all people will see improvements. 
It depends on other mods and driving style.
Some cars are blessed with competent grounding, some may not be.
The older the car, the heavier the electrical load, etc........ the more electrical resistance there will be too compensate for, and therefore a more noticable benefit.


You *MAY* or *MAY NOT* see the following improvements:
- Smoother running, starting, and/or idling.
- Increased fuel efficiency.
- Increased engine power(Hp and Tq).
- Improved electrical component power.


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## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

Did anyone bring this up?
How does this affect the spark plug gap? According to the 1.8T FAQ, you should gap .004 less if you chip your car. But, if you add any high-power ignition system (I'm guessing this means hotter spark), you should gap .004 more.
So if I'm chipped, I'd get a plug that's one range colder and gap it .028 (.004 less than stock), but if I ground these points as well, then I'd return the gap back to stock distance?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (genxguy)*

The high-power ignition sysems their talking about are either Jacobs, Crane, MSD, etc (which cannot be used unless you convert to standalone). The groundwires are different. Those play a direct roll in the spark (the ignition systems). The groundwires do not create a larger, hotter spark. 



_Modified by Seanathan at 4:49 PM 1-8-2004_


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## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

I see. Thanks.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (genxguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *genxguy* »_Did anyone bring this up?
How does this affect the spark plug gap? According to the 1.8T FAQ, you should gap .004 less if you chip your car. But, if you add any high-power ignition system (I'm guessing this means hotter spark), you should gap .004 more.
So if I'm chipped, I'd get a plug that's one range colder and gap it .028 (.004 less than stock), but if I ground these points as well, then I'd return the gap back to stock distance?

You only need to close your gap if you are experiencing misfires due to the increased boost from chipping. I am running Revo, using plugs two ranges colder, using water injection AND have my gap at .031" with no problems. You can do it! You can do it! You can do it! You can do it!


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## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Thanks Coach!


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

Remember,...you're not adding electrical energy,......you are only improving the flow of what is already supposed to be there.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (feuerdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feuerdog* »_Remember,...you're not adding electrical energy,......you are only improving the flow of what is already supposed to be there.

Yes, but a better ground increases the draw of the electrons. So, improving the ground of the engine to the body to the battery allows for a more consistent electrical environment.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Right, but in no way is this going to create a larger or hotter spark


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## dpak4eva (Jan 1, 2003)

*Re: (JettaRed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaRed* »_
Yes, but a better ground increases the draw of the electrons. So, improving the ground of the engine to the body to the battery allows for a more consistent electrical environment.

energy drain


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## Spools at 3 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*

I wanted to ground the coil packs and alternator too, could you tell me the order i would go in then. fender to manifold, manifold to centralized point, centralized point to coil packs? or manifold to coilpacks, coilpacks to alternator? help


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## Spools at 3 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Jman5000)*

Just curious, to actually get a good ground on the chassis wouldn't you have to scrap the paint off were the connector is going or your not going to get a ground through paint? Right - Wrong?


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## Spools at 3 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Spools at 3)*

One more quick thing, if the alt. puts out 90amps if im correct, #4 wire is way overkill for this situation then. I'm an electrician and for a 200amp service we use #4, on a 100amp service which is comparable to the 90amps on alt. we use #8 for ground, so #8 is more than enough.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Spools at 3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spools at 3* »_Just curious, to actually get a good ground on the chassis wouldn't you have to scrap the paint off were the connector is going or your not going to get a ground through paint? Right - Wrong?

Correct.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Spools at 3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spools at 3* »_One more quick thing, if the alt. puts out 90amps if im correct, #4 wire is way overkill for this situation then. I'm an electrician and for a 200amp service we use #4, on a 100amp service which is comparable to the 90amps on alt. we use #8 for ground, so #8 is more than enough.









Yes, but 8 awg doesn't look as cool!


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Spools at 3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spools at 3* »_Just curious, to actually get a good ground on the chassis wouldn't you have to scrap the paint off were the connector is going or your not going to get a ground through paint? Right - Wrong?

Right, but where my points are connected on the chassis, the paint is almost gone anyway, so I just scraped off the rest. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I probably should add that in the how-to..


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## Cav B5 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Seanathan)*

Thanks to Seanathan and the others who contributed to this DIY mod. Thanks also to those who posted pics of where the attachment points were located. Good job, Guys!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## speedgator (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (Cav B5)*

Great thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Funny enough in last months issue of http://www.motorage.com they had a whole article on Staying Grounded.
http://www.motorage.com/motora...78368
Staying Grounded
What to do first when the lights go out 
(or won’t).
Have you ever chased a driveability problem using all the high-tech diagnostic equipment at your disposal, only to discover a loose ground strap? Have you ever spent hours trying to analyze the weird behavior of a computer-controlled device, only to find low battery voltage? Have you ever worked through a six-page diagnostic procedure that led to the dreaded “Replace with known-good unit,” bit the bullet and bought the part, only to discover the problem still existed? Sometimes the simplest electrical problems can generate more headaches and non-billable hours than almost anything else, and there are two basic reasons. 
First of all, while most electrical problems are hidden, things like a low battery or loose ground connection are right there in plain sight, which makes them easy to overlook. Secondly, with so much ‘electronic content’ on today’s cars, even a simple electrical problem is more likely to appear first in an electronic component. Today’s techs are more accustomed to searching for a bad sensor or control unit rather than something simple like low battery voltage. 
Before cars had electronic components, electrical problems were often approached with a basic checklist. Prior to even confirming the customer’s complaint, techs would check battery voltage and terminal condition, visually scan for damaged wiring and loose or corroded connections, and operate every switch on the vehicle to find out exactly what worked and what didn’t. On today’s cars full of electronics, that 10-minute examination can still save hours of chasing gremlins through the wires. So if you think a basic checklist should become part of your diagnostic strategy, here’s a review of some basic facts about automotive electrical systems, just to help you focus on what you’re looking for. 
Ground rules
Before launching into any discussion of electrical work, we need to define some basic terms. Voltage is potential electrical energy. Current is the flow of electrical energy. Resistance opposes the flow of electrical energy. An imperfect but pretty-darn-good analogy for a direct current (DC) electrical system is to think of electricity as pressurized air moving through a pipe. Voltage is pressure, the electrical pressure difference between power and ground. Current is the flow (amps) of electricity through a circuit leading from power to ground. The flow rate through a circuit (amp/hours) depends upon the restrictions or “total resistance” in the circuit. 
Most of the resistance in a circuit is provided by the load device, such as a light bulb, solenoid coil or motor. Wire creates a certain amount of resistance, too, although how much also depends upon the length and diameter of the wire. If total resistance in the circuit is high, let’s say because of a poor connection, flow rate slows down and the load device may not get enough power to function properly. If total resistance is low, perhaps due to an internal short circuit in a motor, current flows so fast it can overheat the wire and burn through the insulation, unless there is a safety valve, such as a fuse. 
In every circuit, voltage, current and resistance are exactly proportional, mathematically speaking. We call current “amps,” but the symbol used to represent it is “I.” If we call current “I,” volts “V” and resistance “R,” then the formula “V=IxR” means volts equals amps times resistance. With a DVOM, this formula and a little bit of algebra, we can learn most of what we need to know about any given circuit or device. So, if V=IxR, then I=V/R and R=V/I. 
Battery science
The cells in a car battery generate electricity with a chemical reaction between a lead plate and a lead dioxide plate that are bathed in acid. When a circuit connects the plates, the lead/acid reaction drives electrons off the lead plate, and they flow along the circuit towards the lead dioxide plate. The reaction also creates a sulfate residue that coats the plate. As long as the circuit exists, the reaction will continue and electrons will flow until the surface of the plate is completely coated. Recharging the battery will reverse the reaction, removing the sulfate coating from the plate so the process can be repeated.
No matter how many plates are in a cell, the chemical reaction in each cell generates just over 2 volts DC, so it’s the number of cells that determine battery voltage. With six cells connected in series, total voltage (electrical pressure) is about 12.6 volts. 
The plate area (size and number of plates per cell) determines the current (amps) a battery can deliver. The rate at which the current can flow (amps per hour) is a function of the speed of the chemical reaction and the resistance in the circuit connecting the plates. When resistance is low, the reaction happens faster so current flows faster. However, even with a very low-resistance connection, the chemical reaction slows down in cold temperatures. Also, as the sulfate residue coats more and more of the plate area, the reaction (and current flow rate) slows down. As the reaction nears completion – the plates completely coated with sulfate residue – current and voltage both drop rapidly toward zero. 
The chemical reaction can be reversed by recharging the battery, but after a certain number of charge/discharge cycles, the sulfate coating hardens and can’t be removed by recharging. A battery is worn out when there is not enough clean plate area left to react with the acid to generate a useful amount of current. 
When current flows out of the battery, voltage pressure drops. With a high resistance load, such as a light bulb, current flow is slow and voltage drop is small. A low-resistance load, such as a starter motor, will allow a high current flow and a large voltage drop, sort of like opening a bigger valve on a tank of pressurized air. 
Start at the beginning
With any electrical or electronics problem, the first thing to confirm is battery condition. At 70°F with everything turned off, a healthy and fully charged car battery will produce 12.6 volts. It can deliver just over 12 volts at 50 amps for about one hour and still be capable of being fully recharged. While some marine and RV batteries are built for this kind of use, standard car batteries aren’t designed for deep-discharge duty and won’t survive many cycles. 
Depending on temperature, a standard lead/acid battery needs charging whenever at-rest voltage falls below 12.4. Sometimes even a worn out battery can be charged back up to a full 12.6 volts, but it won’t be able to deliver full cranking current for more than a few seconds. In warm weather, engines with fuel injection and electronic ignition start easily enough to hide a worn-out battery. But when the chemical reaction that produces electricity slows down on that first cold day of winter, cranking voltage drops quickly in a spent battery. That’s why the only way to accurately test a battery is under a load. 
Of course a load tester is the best tool to use for this, but if you don’t have one, and if the engine has good compression, you can use the starter. With the fuel system disabled so the engine won’t start, connect a DVOM across the battery terminals and operate the starter for no more than 10 seconds. If ambient temperature is 70°F or higher and cranking voltage remains above 9.6 volts, the battery is OK. At 30°F, it should still be above 9.1 volts. If cranking voltage is low, charge the battery and try again. If cranking voltage is still low, the battery needs replacement. If cranking voltage starts at about 11 volts or higher and never falls, and/or if cranking speed seems slow, it’s time to check the starting circuit for high resistance. Read on. 
Voltage drop test
When a DVOM measures resistance, it passes a known voltage through a circuit, measures the current flow and then calculates the resistance (R=V/I). To do this, the circuit must be isolated. A voltage drop test is often more reliable because the test is performed while the circuit is actually working. Whether the circuit is carrying 1 amp or 200 amps, any resistance in the wires, connections or load will cause voltage to ‘stack-up’ behind that resistance. By measuring the voltage across each leg of the circuit in real-life conditions, we can pinpoint resistance that might not be there when testing under artificial conditions with a DVOM. 
For example, here’s how to test a fuel pump circuit: Connect the positive meter probe to the B+ side of the pump relay, at the pump fuse if possible, and touch the negative probe to the pump’s ground connection. When the relay is energized and the pump is running, current will flow through the entire circuit and the pump motor to ground, and you should see no voltage, no electrical pressure difference between the two ends of the circuit. In reality there will be some voltage, up to about 100 millivolts (mV), because every circuit has some resistance. If the reading is any higher, there is excess resistance in a connection or a wire, maybe across the relay contacts or in the motor itself. By moving the negative probe ‘upstream’ to each connection in the circuit with the pump running, you’ll be checking the voltage drop in each leg or section of the circuit. When you touch a connection and the meter reading is suddenly lower than before, the high resistance is between the last place you probed and the end of the circuit; in this case, ground. 
While the voltage drop test can be used for any circuit, it’s particularly well suited for testing low-resistance (high current draw) circuits, especially those with motors. You can test a starting circuit the same way, but limit the starter run-time to 10 seconds and give it time to cool between tests. You can also check for hidden corrosion on the battery terminals by touching the battery post with one probe and the terminal itself with the other. 
Voltage confusion
Have you ever been able to jump-start a car that seemed to crank OK but wouldn’t start on its own? When a computer or other electronic device doesn’t get enough voltage, the symptoms can be unpredictable and misleading. 
A typical electronic control unit operates at 8.5 volts; that power is provided by a voltage regulator built into the unit. Most sensors also get their power from the control unit and operate at the same voltage or, more commonly, at what is often called the 5-volt reference signal. If input voltage to the control unit’s built-in regulator intermittently falls below a critical threshold during cranking, its output voltage may not just be low, it may vary, causing strange things to happen. For instance, an ABS or airbag control unit will probably turn on the instrument panel warning light, but maybe only for a few seconds. A PCM may choose to shut down primary ignition, injectors or the fuel pump. 
If voltage is low only during cranking but normal during KOEO or KOER testing, the reason for these symptoms may not show up. One instructor we know demonstrates this to his students by putting a load tester on the battery while the engine is idling. With the appropriate test equipment connected, it’s easy to see the sensor signals becoming erratic as battery voltage drops to that critical level. Eventually the engine quits, usually because the PCM refuses to operate the injectors when battery voltage falls below 8.5 volts. 
Last step
Our basic checklist has two objectives. First, make sure full power is available from the battery under all conditions. Next, positively identify the circuit that has the problem. Unless it’s the starting circuit, this should be done with the engine running and may require a test drive, too. 
Operate every electric or electronic accessory in the car, first individually and than as many as possible all at the same time. Try to find out what works and what doesn’t, and pay attention to engine performance. 
If there’s more than one thing not working, or if turning something on causes something else to not work properly, use a wiring diagram to find out if they share a power or ground circuit, take commands from the same control unit or use data from the same sensor. Pay particular attention to anything that may have been added to the electrical system, especially aftermarket speakers and amplifiers. Even when the installation has been well executed, some of these systems can intermittently draw enough power to cause control unit problems like those mentioned earlier. 
Five minutes looking at the basic condition of the electrical system is always time well spent. By doing this on every car in your bay, you can quickly develop a personal database, a feel for what’s right and what isn’t. Even if the problem turns out to be exactly what you thought it was from the beginning, at least you’ll be more certain of your diagnosis. And often enough, you’ll find something that may cause trouble in the future. Being able to fix things before they become a problem is what keeps your customers coming back for the right reasons, so you can keep the lights on in your shop, too. 
CORRECTION: Jan. 1, 2004
The original posting of this article contained errors in the formulae caused by translation from print to online format. The originally posted equations, "V=IxR, then I=V3R and R=V3I" should have read "V=IxR, then I=V/R and R=V/I." This text has been corrected, and the editors apologize for the error.
Hope this sheds some more light. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## IY boy (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (speedgator)*

That is some great information that should get placed in a FAQ section to help everyone out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Still working on the 50 mpt (cae92283)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## exS4 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

"You asked for it here it is:"
I didn't ask for it!


----------



## whiteboy1 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (exS4)*

is this just a turbo car application?


----------



## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (whiteboy1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whiteboy1* »_is this just a turbo car application?

No.
This is just electrical,.....it has nothing to do with turbo specific applications or not.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (feuerdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feuerdog* »_
No.
This is just electrical,.....it has nothing to do with turbo specific applications or not. 

Yep, you can do this mod to your house if you want to. 


_Modified by judoGTI at 3:48 PM 1-20-2004_


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

To give you guys an idea of what some more groundwires look like.. Here's some I just did for another Vortexer:


----------



## B95P (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

I like the blue color, sir. I always prefer stealth, but that would look sharp no doubt.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (B95P)*

Yeah that blue color is really sweet.








I like the way that blue looks better than the lineage.


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan* »_Yeah that blue color is really sweet.








I like the way that blue looks better than the lineage. 

That's the color I got for mine....


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

About to start this project and try it out myself... Great write up by the way.
Went to radio shack and picked up 13" feet of 8 gauge wiring for 13 bucks. 1 dollar per foot. I also bought some 5/16 8 gauge ring connectors off ebay. Got the wiring, waiting for connectors. Connectors about 17 bucks. So all in all it was 30 dollars..


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (bumbota111)*

Crap, I didn't know radio shack sold wire that size.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Give us a review when your done along with somemore pictures










_Modified by Seanathan at 11:05 PM 1-29-2004_


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

I didnt know they sold it either... Was looking for it all over the store. I asked one of the guys and they said they dont put it out and put it in the back room.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'll take lots of pics but might need someone to host the pics... Most of my pics only last 7 days...








I may be back here if i need help finding the tranny ground.... But everything else looks straight forward... Still waiting for ring connectors...


_Modified by bumbota111 at 11:40 PM 1-29-2004_


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (bumbota111)*

Finally finished today... Took some pics.. If someone wants to host my pics feel free, there only here for 7 days... Enjoy! The tranny ground was a [email protected] to get to.. But finished http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I saw my blitz turbo timer show 13 volts, usually it only hits 11.5v
Blitz pic








Grounding time!
































*I HATE THIS GROUND POINT !! ROAR>>!! *








Finished Product... Hope I did it right... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (bumbota111)*

One other thing the people who were saying its a 14mm for some reason vw might have went cheap and put a 13mm nut... Using the 14mm socket was stripping my screw... 


_Modified by bumbota111 at 7:40 PM 1-30-2004_


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## 1.infiniT (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (bumbota111)*

Congrats on getting it done. May it bring you peace, prosperity, and world peace ( and maybe better gas mileage too







)
BTW, that's one sharp looking engine, very clean. It shows that you take care of her http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (1.infiniT)*

Havent really tried the grounding kit out.. besides turning my car on and off just to make sure i didnt blow anything up lol.. Thanks for the compliments.. I do clean my engine when i wash my car... Green solution is the best... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (bumbota111)*

Looks very nice man!! Great job!








Let us know how everything feels later... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

Drove my car around, the stereo does sound cleaner.. Feels smoother.. But as far as extra hp/tq, I wouldnt know... Havent tested the gas mileage yet... But will see how it goes... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## lsc2g (Feb 9, 2003)

doh guys tonight i checked my oil and noticed my points at the FPR were all loose and i was like huh.. the damn little bolt came out and fell to who knows where but i need to replace it
Ground Point Two: From throttle body to the central point near FPR.
anybody know how big it is exactly?


----------



## inflatin (Sep 4, 2003)

did it tonight. the tranny bolt was a b!+c|-| to get off but it was done. also my engine cover didnt seem to fit so snug after, but oh well. background noise in my radio seems to have went away (?) and i'll look out for better mileage. total cost = $28


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (lsc2g)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lsc2g* »_doh guys tonight i checked my oil and noticed my points at the FPR were all loose and i was like huh.. the damn little bolt came out and fell to who knows where but i need to replace it
Ground Point Two: From throttle body to the central point near FPR.
anybody know how big it is exactly?

6mm or 8mm. Get both; they're cheap.


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## lsc2g (Feb 9, 2003)

sweet thanks man


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## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (inflatin)*

Mine didnt fit that snug either but i found out why, the ground wire going from the throttle body to the coil pack area was getting in the way.. Check your wires on the engine cover.. I just didnt want my engine cover poping off..


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (bumbota111)*

If your going to run your engine cover, take a peek at the wire that's most likely going to be touching the valve cover. 
I'd keep an eye on it to make sure the plastic coating doesn't melt away. Since its going to be in direct contact with a hot surface (especially during summer). 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

Thanks for the heads up... I've checked on it yesterday cause i was a bit worried about any of the wires touching any metal around the engine... The wires seems to be holding up pretty well... Hard thick coating on the wires... Had a very hard time stripping it..


----------



## iae21 (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: (bumbota111)*

Hey guys...
Just curious, do you think that putting these ground wires will give you a better A/F ratio? 
I Dyno'd my car yesterday, and I had REALLY good results compared to other 1.8t w/o the kit installed.
Here is the A/F reading:


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (iae21)*

Quick question... In the DIY, Senathan says to run the wires this way:
1. Passenger side Chasis to Engine Cover Bolt
2. Engine Cover bolt to bolt at FPR
3. Bolt At FPR to Tranny Ground
4. Bolt at FPR to Negative Terminal
5. Tranny Ground to Negative Terminal
6. Negative Terminial to Driver's Side Chasis
I notice many of you aren't installing #5 (Tranny Ground to Negative Terminal)... Why is that???


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (iae21)*

It shouldn't have any effect on your A/F ratio.


----------



## lsc2g (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (M Diddy)*

I did.

_Quote, originally posted by *M Diddy* »_Quick question... In the DIY, Senathan says to run the wires this way:
1. Passenger side Chasis to Engine Cover Bolt
2. Engine Cover bolt to bolt at FPR
3. Bolt At FPR to Tranny Ground
4. Bolt at FPR to Negative Terminal
5. Tranny Ground to Negative Terminal
6. Negative Terminial to Driver's Side Chasis
I notice many of you aren't installing #5 (Tranny Ground to Negative Terminal)... Why is that???


----------



## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (lsc2g)*

Well, I took mine off.... I figured my gas milage is SO bad, why not????
I'm only averaging about 22-23 miles to the gallon...


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## adam_pdx (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_I noticed when hooking up continuity from the chassis to the head...my readings were .027 Block.... was .016 Intake Manifold Was .014.

All of them went down to .008 solid and steady after the grounding wires.


I read through this forum and what struck me was that no one has mentioned how to normalize their meters when taking resistance measurements. As a veteran calibration technician, I have learned that it is important to short the leads on your meter and adjust it for zero - or to at least compensate mathmatically for zero. Or in more simple words, short the leads of your volt/ohm-meter or DMM, record the number... typically .05 to .8 ohms. Then, when making a resistance measurement, subtract your recorded number from your test measurement, and you have a more realistic value of what you are trying to measure. Without doing this, you are not subtracting the resistive value of your test leads.
Of course, if you have a meter you purchased from Radio Shack, odds are that it isn't all that accurate anyway. I have a radio crap meter for innaccurate shop use, and as compared to the stuff I have at work it is way inaccurate. I'd say on all functions it is +/- 10% where as a Fluke 77 is usually within 2% From my experience in calibration and metrology, usually a Fluke brand meter is the way to go - a lot more expensive, but well worth it if accuracy is needed.
If you have any questions, feel free to email me, but put "VW FORUMS" in the subject line so I don't toss it as junk mail
I am a newb to Dubville and lovin' it so far. I have to give thanks for the information I've gained from VWVortex.


----------



## Inigo Montoya (May 12, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (adam_pdx)*

Quick question, is it possible to still use your engine cover after completing this? Or is there a risk?


----------



## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Inigo Montoya)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Inigo Montoya* »_Quick question, is it possible to still use your engine cover after completing this? Or is there a risk?

Engine cover fine just route your wires properly.
Khyron


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: (M Diddy)*









Checking this thread after each point.








Since I used red wire, this might help you see the tranny point. It's in the background.








Only had red or black - would have preferred blue.








All done.
Took over 3 hours - after hearing how hard the tranny point was I ended up removing something that was 10x harder. Get LOW to the car and look in from the side. The tranny point is pretty high up underneath. I was looking from above, and so I started working on the only black wire looking thing I could see. Which turned out to be a metal S bar thing which not only had an almost impossible to get at bolt - but it also had a nut on the other side.








After a few hours fixing that mistake, the proper tranny point took less than 5 minutes. 
Anyways, after driving around for 30 mins it's I can't say anything about performance (seemed more responsive, but could be placebo). It definately didn't have an idle dip in the time I was driving so that's excellent. 750 rpm idle constant - it only dipped a tiny bit when I turned on the AC where before it dropped quite dramatically. I'll be watching for the next few weeks to see how it goes.
I also have graphed fuel economy since day 1, so I'll report back after 4-5 fills and see if there's anything noticable.
I'm happy with it - thanks for posting.
Khyron


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

Nice man! I hope you enjoy it! 
Once I get a new host, I'm going to redo the "how-to" and include a video on HOW to find the tranny grounding point


----------



## Nessal (Nov 24, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

when buying wires....does it matter if it is oxygen free or not?


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Nessal)*

Oxygen free are better wires. They shouldnt be a whole lot more.


----------



## lenswerks (Nov 6, 2002)

*Re: (Nessal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nessal* »_when buying wires....does it matter if it is oxygen free or not?

I doubt any manufacture is using anything other than the oxygen free process this day and time. 
What you will get the best results with is 99% pure copper, with as many strands as possible, a shielding layer and high temperature outer layer. Electrons flow on the surface of wire, not through the wire. So the more surface area, the better conductivity, low impendence.
For example, the Sun HGS silver and gold cable kits have cables that are 1477 strands of 99.99% pure copper.
Sure you'll get results with something less, but if your going to the trouble you will want to get the most improvement possible for your car.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Nessal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nessal* »_when buying wires....does it matter if it is oxygen free or not?

It's already been answered, but yes. I'd stick around oxygen free. It's better all around. It's main usage is with audio wiring for speakers, acoustic wire, etc. It keeps the ambient noise down. Most speaker wire today is almost close to oxygen free. Usually not 100%, but close enough. 
Here's an explanation of "oxygen free"... 

_Quote, originally posted by *Science Line* »_
Oxygen-free high conductivity copper is produced by remelting "cathode copper" (electrolytically refined copper) in an oxygen free atmosphere, often a hydrogen-containing atmosphere. This is the best copper for electrical conductors, but it is mechanically weak. The cathode copper may be preferred for electrical applications if any strength is needed 




_Modified by Seanathan at 9:37 AM 2-13-2004_


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## allstarmaterial (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

What about cable like this:
















It is #6 cable, with a gray cloth sheath. I can cut/pull the cloth off fairly easily. Plus it's semi flexible and holds shape pretty well, and doesn't take much to form it into shape. Would this be ok?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (allstarmaterial)*

ehh. I don't think that would be a good conductor. Looks like a diff type of wire. I would stay around the audio wire (resisitance to high heat, etc). It's a bit better for this application.. 
I'll show you my old 6awg wire later. a little bit more.. "meaty" too. 


_Modified by Seanathan at 9:34 AM 2-13-2004_


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## allstarmaterial (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seanathan* »_ I would stay around the audio wire 


What about connectors/lugs? I have some Burndy #6 connectors/lugs. Or should I buy some audio connectors too?


----------



## dknl (Jul 1, 2002)

after driving around a few months of summer and winter with the ground wires....
noticed green oxidation on the wires and also the connectors.
Anyone have this too? Do i need to clean this off and do it again?


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (dknl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dknl* »_after driving around a few months of summer and winter with the ground wires....
noticed green oxidation on the wires and also the connectors.
Anyone have this too? Do i need to clean this off and do it again?


Thats normal. It depends on which color you get. Usually the lighter colors tend to do that. Won't hurt anything though. I'll show you a pic of my old ones later when I get back from work.


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## whiteboy1 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Khyron)*

why ground in series instead of all from the negative terminal on the battery?


----------



## baconlegs_g60 (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

hey JudoGTI
is that the cheat code for contra in your sig?


----------



## IY boy (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (baconlegs_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *baconlegs_g60* »_hey JudoGTI
is that the cheat code for contra in your sig?

I told him that a while back. Contra is awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## whiteboy1 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (whiteboy1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whiteboy1* »_why ground in series instead of all from the negative terminal on the battery?


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (whiteboy1)*

Read the thread. You can ground in parallel if you want to.


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## whiteboy1 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

i did read it. just wondering if it makes a difference. i was wonderin if anybody did both and tested the results.


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (whiteboy1)*

This whole mod makes such a minute difference unless you have severe problems with your car's electrical system as is. I don't think it would make a noticable/measurable difference either way.


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## gtistyle20v (Jan 23, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (baconlegs_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *baconlegs_g60* »_hey JudoGTI
is that the cheat code for contra in your sig?


IF YOU GUYS WERE HARDCORE U WOULD KNOW THAT THE CHEAT CODE HE HAS FOR CONTRA IS FOR A 2 PLAYER GAME...
I CANT BELEIVE IVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE BRING THAT UP..
NO SELECT FOR 1 PLAYER


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## Kilmer (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (gtistyle20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtistyle20v* »_

IF YOU GUYS WERE HARDCORE U WOULD KNOW THAT THE CHEAT CODE HE HAS FOR CONTRA IS FOR A 2 PLAYER GAME...
I CANT BELEIVE IVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE BRING THAT UP..
NO SELECT FOR 1 PLAYER

only you would know this adam...


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (kilmer420)*

No, it comes up about every 10 threads the poor guy posts in. And it's scary how many of us do know it.
Khyron


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## B95P (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Khyron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Khyron* »_No, it comes up about every 10 threads the poor guy posts in. And it's scary how many of us do know it.
Khyron


I actually had to IM to reassure myself what it was. Why can't they revamp that game with new modern graphics







. It would be so much fun on XBox


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## allstarmaterial (Apr 28, 2002)

*Re: (dknl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dknl* »_after driving around a few months of summer and winter with the ground wires....
noticed green oxidation on the wires and also the connectors.
Anyone have this too? Do i need to clean this off and do it again?


Look for some "No-Ox" grease. Helps keep oxidation from forming on electrical connections. 

Also, how many people cleaned up where they made their connections? IE: cleaned the paint away, and/or scuffed up the non painted areas with a scotch-brite pad(or something similar). Seems to me that you would want to remove any paint or dirt from where you are making your connections to get the least resistance in your connection. Plus paint isn't really a conductor, so I don't see grounding to the fenders, through the paint doing much at all.


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

Did you guys see the March 04 edition of Euro Tuner? There's a tech article on a grounding kit. It was tested on a B5 A4. Here are the before and after numbers.
Stock HP-156.7, Grounded HP-158.0
Stock TQ-162.2, Grounded TQ-159.6


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## Haroharo (Jan 18, 2004)

*Re: (allstarmaterial)*

I know this is 1.8t forum, but I just wonder will this cable work for 2.0?








the setup will be similar?
thx


----------



## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

You build your own wires so it should practically work on any engine. Just find your points and you should be squared away.


----------



## DubberNix (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (hungalicious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hungalicious* »_Did you guys see the March 04 edition of Euro Tuner? There's a tech article on a grounding kit. It was tested on a B5 A4. Here are the before and after numbers.
Stock HP-156.7, Grounded HP-158.0
Stock TQ-162.2, Grounded TQ-159.6

So almost no gain in HP, and a loss in TQ??







Why do it?


----------



## Haroharo (Jan 18, 2004)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

ok thx


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

_Quote »_Why do it?

It's cheap, easy to make, and won't harm anything. If anything, it's all for the bling factor.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

Interesting it lost TQ. Did they mention why in the article at all? Can you scan it in for us to read?


----------



## Blue.Jester.02Gti (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

ive heard from some that they saw an increases in their mpg
that is weird that they lost TQ though...


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (hungalicious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hungalicious* »_
Did you guys see the March 04 edition of Euro Tuner? There's a tech article on a grounding kit. It was tested on a B5 A4. Here are the before and after numbers.
Stock HP-156.7, Grounded HP-158.0
Stock TQ-162.2, Grounded TQ-159.6

because i'm sure they dyno'd it in california with a stock ic during the summer..







but i'll go read the article to see what exactly they said. 
as for using this with the 2.0, it will work just as well. just use similar points. 


_Modified by Seanathan at 6:49 PM 2-22-2004_


----------



## dknl (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

Article doesn't say much at all.
It's really just a neutral writeup of the install and the theory behind the grounding kits.
It leaves the reader to determine the results themselves by just posting the dyno graph and the numbers on the side.
Supposedly the numbers were taken from 3 pulls each with rest in between.
Doesn't matter....gain in HP but lost in TQ.....doesn't matter....
THE 1.8T CAN NEVER LOSE


----------



## baconlegs_g60 (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: (dknl)*

If you want your car to have lots-o-wires in the way....then i have a cheap solution for you....
Go to your local.....yes local....welding shop. you can buy 4ga. wire for $.75 a foot. Then go crazy and buy about 50 connectors. 
my grounding points.....
motor-to-:
lug bolts, seat, exhaust, brake lines, windshields(need hammer for hole)......i give up.
but the 4ga wire is true.....crazy-go-nuts university


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (dknl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dknl* »_
Doesn't matter....gain in HP but lost in TQ.....doesn't matter....
THE 1.8T CAN NEVER LOSE









lol.... i just need to get my lazy ass up and dyno the damn wires.


----------



## rowdyzombie (Jan 18, 2001)

I did some work based on the info read from this tread today. I decided against a floating ground and did it my own way. It took some time, as I experimented but it looks real clean.
I got 20 strand fairly thick 8 guage wire from Home Depot. It was not the stereo type high strand felxible wire but it was good because I could bend it as I wanted, was oil resistant, said VW1 (really) and 600V. I know it doesn't flow as much with the lower strands, but it should work fine. I got (8) 8 guage 5/16 Phoenix gold connectors and (2) 4 guage gold connectors. The 4 guage was for the tranny bolt, and was high mulitstrand. 
I ran seperate wires from the coilpack ground, the bolt holding the bracket that holds the upper engine cover by the throtle/intake manifold, and the chassis passenger side fender bolt by the pollen filter. I did all three of these to the negative battery. I tried to put the 4 guage to the tranny, but I couldn't get a decent wrench on it. So, it didn't go on, but it already has a beefy 4 guage connector from VW-so I will leave it as is for now. 
This battery cable connector now has three connectors, and I used a nut to hold it on the right battery terminal. I had a 2nd ground on the drivers chassis, but when I put the battery cover on it didn't work so I took it off. I got tired of working on the car so it's done for now. I used zip ties and routed the chassis ground underneath the plastic molding where the ecm is. I tied the chassis ground to the hood cable on the driveres side, also. I used zip ties and it doesn't get in the way of the wiper motors. The manifold ground was routed on the fuel injector plastic thing that runs parrallel to the manifold. The ignition ground ran parallel to the manifold ground. Again using zip ties, you can't even see much wire except a few inches here and there. Works good, and the coilpack coil wire was a little hazzy- was some puny 14 guage or so wire-- I wasn't impressed. I sanpapered it and put some dieletic grease on it. I also used dielectric grease on all the wire ends so it doesn't oxidize. 
Thought I'd pass this on, as it was fairly easy and I spent along time trying differenct things. Car runs great and I hope my MPG goes up. The ignition ground was a joke, and I think this helped alot.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (rowdyzombie)*

very very nice. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif get back to us in a bit when you go through a tank of gas. Let us know how the miles per tank are, and the power/torque seems to be.


----------



## Motorwerks (Nov 6, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

Sorry guys I didnt want to scan through 15 pages of crap but you may wanna go with BLACK so yoru lame ass tow truck driver doesnt come out and jump start your car backasswards becasue you had red on both sides


----------



## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: (Motorwerks)*

Just finished up installing my grounding wires. I used streetwires 4 awg and did this path:
-pass. fender to coil pack ground
-coil pack ground to throttle body
-coil pack ground to transmission ground
-tranny ground to neg. battery terminal
-neg. battery terminal to driver's side fender
Took 11 feet of wire, 10 connectors and about 90 minutes. I torch soldered all the connectors on http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif As for results I only took the car for a quick loop around the block. Everything felt good, I'm going to need to drive it more to get any addition impressions.


----------



## BikeBoy24 (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: (4ceFed4)*

I'm curious, did you guys scrape off some of the paint to get to the bare metal when connecting the wires to the fenders?


----------



## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: (BikeBoy24)*

yes, you have to.


----------



## tristan325 (Jan 2, 2003)

can we update the link to the pics on the first page?


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (b16a2racer)*

sorry about the pictures. my imagestation account was closed, and all the pictures gone. Those pictures weren't from my car, and I would stap some pictures of the wires, but I don't have any wires on my car. I was working with relocating my battery, and in the process I gave them away figuring I'd need to make some new ones anyway.
Look forward within the next week for brand new pictures and writeup. 
Btw, on a side note, my girlfriends 2004 Civic comes with groundwires from the factory.


----------



## Vdubya337 (May 27, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

OK, so after several people suggest that this really won't do anything and then one of the most popular euro magazines goes out and dyno's this setup with neutral/negative results you guys keep spending money on an expensive, worthless mod? I don't get it.
BTW- the time it took to install this crap was plenty for the intercooler to chill out between runs, so that theory is out. Too much time and money.....


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubya337)*

What the hell are you talking about? 
First, the dyno run was done on a 24v Vr6. That I whitnessed. Second, the mod is hardly as expensive as any other items you might buy. Third, not many people bashed the mod, more enjoy it. Reread the thread.


----------



## rowdyzombie (Jan 18, 2001)

*Results*

Well, I've had the 3 seperate grounds to the manifold, the passenger chassis, and the ignition coil ground for about 10 days now. The car is running great. The mpg has been around 25 for a long time, but the last few weeks I was getting 20-21. I'm at 25 MPG again, thanks to this improvement or about 320 miles before red tank zone (about 12.5 gallons) --so about 370 for a full tank if you run dry (?). I think I need some fuel injector cleaner, as I haven't done that in a while. The partial throttle/ fall on your face things has dissapeared, and the car is smoother. I think the ground to the manifold helps the DBW TB (partial throttle fall on your face thing), and the ignition ground helps the MPG and smoothness. It still dips here and there on idle, and yes I have the green coolant/fuel sensor. This car's healthy!








As for power, I can't tell much. It's stock, except a K&N dropin, but it does seem a little more bad a--. It's smoother. This 337 is just such a perfect drivers car, it really just does what you want it to. I was hoping for great MPG, but I guess these 337's and 20th's suck up gas more than most 1.8t's. Perhaps it's the exhaust, and heavy front brake rotors (12.3 inches are like 56 lbs!). Plus, I get alot of stop and go crap here in Sacramento, CA, and we get crappy 91 corn starch gas (at the highest prices I might add).
So, all and all it was worth it for me. Not really a mod, as most people here think of stage 3 turbo's etc for mods. I'll chip mine some day, when I don't care about warranties, so it will help more then. For now, it nice to know it's now better engineered. I was really disappointed with the coil ground. Pretty pathetic. Oh, well http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## awwsheeet (May 17, 2001)

*Re: Results (rowdyzombie)*

I want to inform everyone that me and hugemikeyd on vortex make grounding kits. we us the highest quality 4 guage wire (automotive not welding or house wire) and use 24k gold impact crimped connectors. these babys will never loosen up ever. about a million pounds of force is exherted on the conncetor when the impact crimper goes off. also its life time warrenteed. the wire is semi glass black so its stock looking and gives better milage, idle, high rpm spark, brighter lights, hp and tq gains!!(the a4 in eurotuner was clearly heat soaked) super easy install and bang for your buck a great buy.
1.8t that surge will no longer surge. the tq curve is flatten out and no tq is lost. all grounding points were dyno tested and chosen. gives the most gains. if you are interested hit me up here or check out the website....http://www.mydubmedia.com/~awwsheeet/kit.html
any questions your welcome to ask


----------



## majorkirkus (Oct 1, 2003)

what is the 6th point on the picture?


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (majorkirkus)*

looks like the coilpack ground..


----------



## slammedvwgolf (Feb 16, 2004)

*relocated my battery...hmmm*

what would u guys suggest i do since i relocated my battery...i relocated it to the trunk and ran 1 gauge wire to the fron and connected it to the alternator...then i drilled a hole in my trunk and grounded the battery...i then grounded the other things to one of the bolts holding the battery tray up front...(i sanded the paint good connections) but now i dont know how im gonna make a ground kit the way u guys suggest...nothin will be directly to the battery...it will be directly to the chassis to which the battery is grounded...will this make a difference...nobody in the whole thread brought this up...i wanna do this mod but i wanna make sure it will be as efficent as the other guys here with the battery under the hood....what do u guys think i should do for grounding? is i worth it...??
i am talking about new ground wires to ground my engine, tranny, etc. prob will use 4 gauge wire just wanna know how im going to go about doing this since my battery is now in my trunk..
plz help a dubber out...


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: relocated my battery...hmmm (slammedvwgolf)*

I have a battery relocation kit sitting in my room.. i need to do some grounding points for when i relocate my battery.. The best thing to do would be to get a multimeter and try different points all over the car, in the engine bay, and in the trunk where the battery sits. I'd put them in both spots. But I wouldn't go nuts with the grounding points. Just try to get some points with impedience close to zero.


----------



## awwsheeet (May 17, 2001)

*Re: relocated my battery...hmmm (Seanathan)*

if your interested in getting a custom kit made for your car with a relocated battery contact me. we can make you a custom kit its not a big deal. our kits are 100 person custom and made to customer specs.
the 6th point is the coil pack point and that point is a often neglected point ironicly its a very important point in our grounding kit. we seen the most gains with the addition of that one point alone. 
like i said our kits are butt dyno tested and currently were developing supra and other high end grounding systems for high end cars. alot of people dont believe in something so inexpensive helping out that much....too bad for them
i have close to 7000 post and ive been with vortex sice its infantcey.....and like always im just trying to help.


----------



## dknl (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Results (awwsheeet)*

is there a tranny ground in that pic?
i used 3 as distribution point as well as a tranny ground point too.


----------



## machine1970 (Nov 7, 2003)

can we get a close-up of that 6th ground please?


----------



## jetta1.8T (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: (machine1970)*

How about grounding for the alternator?








Check this out on a RSX
http://www.ivtecdaily.com/rsx/....html


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (jetta1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jetta1.8T* »_How about grounding for the alternator?








Check this out on a RSX
http://www.ivtecdaily.com/rsx/....html

we would be able to use the alternator if we had a nice bolt like that on ours..


----------



## jetta1.8T (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

Seanathan, could you post some pictures of your grounding setup? Most of the pictures are not available.
Thx


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (jetta1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jetta1.8T* »_Seanathan, could you post some pictures of your grounding setup? Most of the pictures are not available.
Thx









My imagestation account was deleted... I need to buy somemore wires to make for my car anyway.. so i'll be revamping the grounding point pictures & writeup.


----------



## MakeLuv2aDub (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

Hey Sean, sorry to interrupt your grounding points thread, but will ya call me??? I called a few times lately, and ur cell is acting strange... Anyways, BE AROUND NEXT TIME I CALL cuz I'm planning on going out there in a month or so to visit..check out ASU...etc... and go out and be a rockstar with ya a few times...


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

Did my own kit this weekend. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. The tranny ground was a PITA b/c I could not see it. I could see the "upper" nut (looking down between shift linkage and coolant sensor) that judoGTI used, but I didn't want to mess with that one because of what looked like a couple of rubber washers under it. So I used the "lower" nut, which I could feel, but not see because of all the hoses in the way. This "lower" point is towards the front of the car and to the left (your left, standing in front of the car and facing it) of the one judoGTI used. Just reach around with your right hand, and you will find it easily.
I also changed my stock plugs for BKR7Es, so hopefully I'll see better mileage and stuff all around.


----------



## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: (improvius)*









Well it's been a few months, and while I won't lay any conclusions from the above, I will just say I'm pleased. I also switched to 94 at about the same time however octane increase doesn't = mpg, or does it?








It will be interesting to see after the summer as those big peaks at the beginning will be repeated in July.
Khyron


----------



## mojof1 (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: (Khyron)*

i'd like to see pictures that are actually available









also, can I buy these wires from home depot?


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## back2school (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: (mojof1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mojof1* »_i'd like to see pictures that are actually available









also, can I buy these wires from home depot?


I didn't find them at my local Home Depot...they do have everything you need at Radio Shack...or you can get a "kit" from Best Buy or piece it together from other electronics retailers.
I went with Sounddomain.com - they have everything and more http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif :
http://www.sounddomain.com/shop/amp_install


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## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

*Re: (back2school)*

I got some nice blue 8 gauge EFX cable from North Coast Performance for $.50/foot. I was gonna order from their website, then I realized they are located just a few miles away! So anyway, this place checks out, if anyone wants to buy from them. Only they didn't have the connector rings, so I had to go somewhere else. But anyway, this was the best per-foot price I could find for cable that wasn't black or red.
http://www.nthcoast.com/audioRCACables-Wire.html
-Imp


----------



## pgoughary (Aug 6, 2001)

*Re: Results (awwsheeet)*

No luck with that link, awwsheeet. PM me, please.


----------



## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

Had my kit in for several weeks now, but I can't be sure of any real gains/losses.
- I changed my route to work and added distance but at consistent highway speeds.
- I changed my bov back to a bov(vs. being recirculated).
- The air temperatures have steadily climbed in recent weeks.
- Upgraded APR SPP software to V2.
The only change I have seen is added fuel efficiency.
On full tanks of Sunoco 94/Mobil One 93 octane gas, I have gone from an average of 320-340 miles per tank to a consistent 340+ miles per tank. With one tank actually getting a little over 365 miles out of it(but it was refilled on fumes).
Now i'm not saying that these are good results, or that they are even attributable to the grounding kit(4 gauge 5 connection points - no tranny connection), BUT I have seen a difference.
Driving style is consistently quick launch/5-10 over speed limit, 50/50 city/highway driving.
It was a cheap and easy mod. and it looks kinda cool too.


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## JettaManDan (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (feuerdog)*

i have made several for vortexers...and they have all made a difference...


----------



## DSSA (Nov 20, 2003)

*Re: (JettaManDan)*

A true testament to the ability (or lack thereof) on VW parts to wire a car. 
When someone finds that even almost-new cars gain anything from grounding kits, the factory needs to make some changes.


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## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

*Re: (DSSA)*

It's been a few weeks now since the day I changed from the original stock plugs to BKR7Es and put in 8 gauge grounding cables. I've been through 2 full tanks of gas since thee changes, and so far the MPG have increased from from around 26-27 to almost 28. The improvement has been the same for both of my last tankfulls. I don't know if it's the plugs, the grounding or some combination of both. The mileage is a good 50/50 combination of city and highway. I suspect I'd get around 32 MPG or more on a road trip.
-Imp


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## 20V-Turbo (Oct 29, 2003)

*Re: (improvius)*

How much WHP will a ground wire kit give you about? 5-10whp?


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

*Re: (20V-Turbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20V-Turbo* »_How much WHP will a ground wire kit give you about? 5-10whp?

No. 
Zero whp gain/loss,...unless there is something seriously wrong with your system already.
You may see improved gas mileage, smoother running, and less electrical dimming though.

I managed over 420 miles on my last tank,...and thats 50/50 city/highway semi-aggressive driving.


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## fortuneman (Feb 2, 2000)

*Re: (feuerdog)*

Someone should host those pics on another server. We can't see them.


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## gti3374life (Aug 26, 2003)

*Re: (fortuneman)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1391151 
pics


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## josh1.8turboMD (Aug 24, 2003)

I just did this to my car I have a 2001 GTI 1.8T and the car wont start it will crank over but wont start..When you put the key in and turn it you hear a ringing noise from the TB.Any help wpuld be great...


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (josh1.8turboMD)*

check your connections. the TB always makes that noise. thats a good thing


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## RSZero1 (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

Thanks for the info, bump to the top!


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## RSZero1 (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: (Seanathan)*

Thanks for the info, bump to the top.


----------



## BananaCo (Sep 16, 2001)

*Re: (RSZero1)*

good info, needs to be bumped


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## DJKeebler (Dec 6, 2001)

Well, since I bypassed my N249 and installed the grounding kit on the same day, I can't really tell which one made more of a difference. But the car runs SOOOO much smoother now and boost comes on much cleaner. Surging is still there but it's barely noticeable and I'm hoping the N75"J" will remedy this. Installed my boost gauge this past weekend too so I was able to tell where I'm at. Peak at around 21-22 (think I can actually go higher since I didn't really floor the pedal) and it settles around 15. My idle is MUCH smoother and it looks like I might have gotten some increased gas mileage. I won't know yet because I'm still on my first tank of gas but these are both worthy mods.


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (DJKeebler)*

Very nice. Just to let you guys know, I'll be redoing my grounds and the writeup. I'm leaving for Dubwars on Friday and could DEF use the extra gas mileage. Thus far I get 300 miles per tank. We'll see how I do for the trip....


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## DJKeebler (Dec 6, 2001)

I'm estimating I'll get about 260-270 miles per tank but it's not like Hawaii has many highways to drive on so most of my miles are city miles. I can only dream of getting 320+ miles per tank! I wish we had more freeways to just get out on and cruise but it's one of the sacrifices for living on an island!


----------



## AVANT (Jun 25, 2001)

*Re: (DJKeebler)*

Dang it... finally getting a chance to do this mod, and the pictures go offline... Anyone have close pictures of the grounding points?


----------



## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (AVANT)*

Here is my grounding kit.. Hope this helps you out.. Also there is suppose to be one more ground from the tranny to the battery (I forgot about that one)... But since it was a pain in the butt to loosen the nut on there, im not gonna add it... (More like im lazy...) I think its good enough already... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



















































_Modified by bumbota111 at 4:11 PM 7-12-2004_


----------



## 1.8L8vVeeDub (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (hungalicious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hungalicious* »_I finished the project tonight. Here are the install pics. I used Seanathan`s connection points.
I half-assed the install but it turned out really well. Now I need to do some testing. You up for it Rodney?
Here's the first cable..








The second starts from the end of the first to the "junction". This cable runs across the manifold as you can see..








The third cable runs from the "junction" down to a connection point down in the bay. Where I have it appears to be connected to the tranny. Correct me if I am wrong...








The forth cable also goes from the "junction" to the negative terminal..








The fifth goes from the negative terminal to the chassis. I bolted it down under the bolt that holds the airbox down..








I am currently missing one other cable. This is from Tranny to negative terminal. This will be done tomorrow because I forgot about it.
Here is the setup from Left to right..


























you should relocate the 2 end wires to a non-painted surface. for a better ground. on the passenger side theres a bracket behind the coolant bottle, and on the driver side, where the stock snorkel (the piece that roues air to the airbox) is bolted to.


----------



## AVANT (Jun 25, 2001)

*Re: (bumbota111)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thx for the help guys.


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## bumbota111 (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (1.8L8vVeeDub)*









I dont think that is the correct tranny ground point.... The one seanathan has shown is the one i have pictured above... Before even putting any ground wires on, there is already one there... I only have a total of two, where there should be three there... The one going from the tranny ground point to the battery... which i forgot... And in your pic you dont have one either... Ill get to it one day though.. one day...








Also the tranny ground point is on the side not straight down from what it looks like in that pic... 



_Modified by bumbota111 at 4:55 PM 7-12-2004_


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

I don't have the tranny connection, and I am still seeing 380+ to 420 miles per tank on APR chipped 93.
I really doubted this would have any effect on my car, but I was wrong.








PS: I'm running 4 gauge from the fender to the TB to the FPR, to the battery to the fender.
Mods include: 3" GHL TB, Evo CAI, APR DPP in 93 oct. mode.


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## awwsheeet (May 17, 2001)

*Re: (feuerdog)*

yeah over 400 miles per tank is not uncommon


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## DizmalWolfie (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: Grounding...*

Good Cheap Mod Bump


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## SoopedUp03GLI (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: Grounding... (DizmalWolfie)*

Im doing this tomorrow. Will regular speaker 4 gauge do the job?


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (SoopedUp03GLI)*

yes. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dknl (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (Seanathan)*

asked before thought i'd ask again to clarify...
noticed there was alot of corrosion on the crimped wires after a couple of months. The wires that are crimped inside the connectors are corroded really bad...i doubt this would make a good electrical connection. Anyway to fix and prevent this? Figured I'd prolly have to cut the wire and redo it again.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (dknl)*

Solder tip all the exposed copper. I actaully used solder to attach the wire to the ring connectors. Tinning something makes it resistant to rust and corrosion though.


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## ruba_dubdub (Dec 26, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (dknl)*

It'd also be a good idea to use heat shrink.


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## silversport (Aug 8, 2001)

I'm a little confused on the grounding point for the tranny. Can someone post better pics? I need to see the location. Thanks.


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (silversport)*

Shoot me an email @ [email protected] I'll send you a pic. I would host it, but I don't feel like resizing it right now.


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## JettaManDan (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Grounding... (4ceFed4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *4ceFed4* »_Solder tip all the exposed copper. I actaully used solder to attach the wire to the ring connectors. Tinning something makes it resistant to rust and corrosion though.

but it can also make it less conductive.....for mine i used the best wire and terminals i could find....plus heat shrinking the ends and putting on a protective rubber boots......no corrosive issues that i can see - and i've had kits on cars for months....
Dan


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## coffeemade (Oct 3, 2003)

*Re: Grounding... (JettaManDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaManDan* »_
but it can also make it less conductive.....for mine i used the best wire and terminals i could find....plus heat shrinking the ends and putting on a protective rubber boots......no corrosive issues that i can see - and i've had kits on cars for months....
Dan

and that is why I bought the kit from you


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## awwsheeet (May 17, 2001)

*Re: Grounding... (coffeemade)*

good crimping is fine...
jsut make sure the 4 guage wire is crimped correctly and the connector will never fall off!


----------



## JettaManDan (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Grounding... (awwsheeet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *awwsheeet* »_good crimping is fine...
jsut make sure the 4 guage wire is crimped correctly and the connector will never fall off!

exactly!


----------



## FreshieMedia (Jul 4, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (JettaManDan)*

Can someone please tell me what I did wrong? Almost immediately after turning the ignition on I got a CEL. It was "Intake Temp. Sensor Signal Too High". I cleared it and it came back. Did I not hit the proper ground on the tranny? I tapped the bolt that already had a wire connected to it, held on by a 13mm nut.


----------



## awwsheeet (May 17, 2001)

*Re: Grounding... (FreshieMedia)*









the harness right above the red connector is left unplugged.

replug and clear codes


----------



## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (awwsheeet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *awwsheeet* »_
the harness right above the red connector is left unplugged.

replug and clear codes

Thanks you said it before I did.


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## FreshieMedia (Jul 4, 2002)

*Re: Grounding... (Seanathan)*

wow! good eyes! thanks. i just plugged it in, i'll let you know if the cel comes back. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SurrealGTI (Feb 19, 2001)

*My Grounding Mod Pics*

Here's some pics of my setup. Thanks to Seanathan for starting this thread & for everyone who contribituted














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
*Engine Bay*








*Left Closeup*








*Middle Closeup*








*Right Closeup*










_Modified by SurrealGTI at 8:48 PM 8-14-2004_


----------



## Buttero J-Lo (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (turbomadman)*

bu,mp so i can read for hours tonight http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Broken '01 (Aug 16, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (judoGTI)*

please do not use welding cable for this aplication unless the strand count is high. d/c current travels on the out side of each strand, a/c through the whole wire. 4 awg. $2.00/ft, 8 awg. $1.00/ft, gold 4 awg. rings $2.50 @ local stereo shop. For the 4ga. rings B.F.H. flaten, flex loom tape call it a day. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## FreshieMedia (Jul 4, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Broken '01)*

just an update if anyone still cares about this beaten to death topic. after 4 fills and 1 oil change I see absolutely no difference in gas mileage, throttle response, radio reception, or anything else. this is just another example of vortex placebo. oh well, i fell for it, serves me right. if it works for your car then your car wasn't properly grounded to begin with and i guess mine was. ce la vie!


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (FreshieMedia)*

Oh christ here we go again. This isn't about the car being properly grounded. but whatever. I'm tired of beating this dead horse. Props to at least testing it out though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*









Another update via long term records. The peaks are full tank highway trips (the same ones) and the single low one was a track day.
Khyron



_Modified by Khyron at 11:45 PM 10-6-2004_


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## Seanathan (May 1, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Khyron)*

Very interesting data http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Seems for the most part of the graph pre-grounding wires it sat around 23-25 mpg.. and after it sat around 24-27. Highest being at 32mpg, that includes the wires.


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## a2gtinut (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

the only way to test it is in the lab or track.
there is no way you can reproduce same driver behavior with each fill.
Driving on public roads DOES NOT offer same traffic conditions every day or hour.
I know few guys who did fuel economy testing vs MFA display at the Chrysler test track driving for hours while maintaing same speed.
So, forget taking MPG data before ground kit and after since you drive on the public roads and the readings are 100% not accurate.


_Modified by a2gtinut at 10:01 AM 10-7-2004_


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## a2gtinut (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Broken '01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Broken ’01* »_please do not use welding cable for this aplication unless the strand count is high. d/c current travels on the out side of each strand, a/c through the whole wire. 4 awg. $2.00/ft, 8 awg. $1.00/ft, gold 4 awg. rings $2.50 @ local stereo shop. For the 4ga. rings B.F.H. flaten, flex loom tape call it a day. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

DO NOT USE GOLD CONNECTORS unless the area where is mating is gold too.
The point where GOLD touches aluminum or other not similar metal - galvanic corosion is created.


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## 20vturbo #733 (Oct 2, 2003)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (a2gtinut)*

man i need to do this mod...


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## Khyron (Dec 5, 2001)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (a2gtinut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *a2gtinut* »_the only way to test it is in the lab or track.
there is no way you can reproduce same driver behavior with each fill.
Driving on public roads DOES NOT offer same traffic conditions every day or hour.


It's not accurate for claiming a specific XX gain (which I didn't claim), but it certainly IS accurate for viewing trends over longer terms. That's how statistics work. And just like with any other statistic, viewing over 2 or 3 fills is not the same as doing it over 50.
Khyron


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## a2gtinut (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Khyron)*

presented results from this mod tell me = don't waste time and do something else.


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## airdbeck23 (May 25, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (a2gtinut)*

IT may be a dumb question but what does or is the FPR everone is mentioning?


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## Pablo1.8t (May 24, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (airdbeck23)*

had to dig up an old one, i want to do this but my directions with my kit are not very clear and the pictures here dont work, anyone got an updated site?


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## wrh3 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Pablo1.8t)*

I just installed one this week, pics at http://www.billswebspace.com/vwgli.htm , towards the bottom of the page http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Pablo1.8t (May 24, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (wrh3)*

thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## OTOmatic (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Pablo1.8t)*

K, I can't seem to find a pic that shows how this is done on 12V VR6 or pics that can seen. Can someone host the pics for this, please? Thanx in advance.
~ Andrew


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## OTOmatic (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (OTOmatic)*

NVM, wrong forum, I just saw it soon as I sent the message....


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## TJet1.8 (Dec 19, 2002)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (Seanathan)*

Revived!!!!...to see if the pics would come back...
...didn't work








oh well...










_Modified by TJet1.8 at 4:55 PM 10-30-2005_


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## 514passatvr6 (Dec 5, 2004)

*Re: You asked for it here it is: Grounding Points (TJet1.8)*

Why on earth would you need to put a ground on the transmission?


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