# stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it?



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

i have the Audi TT brakes on my GLI and am not having very good luck with them. I have changed the master cylinder twice and i they still feel mushy and are very inconsistant. I am running the APR stage 3 kit and my mechanic told me I might need to install a vacuum resevoir cause when I am under high boost and then immediatly hit the brakes the pedal pretty much goes to the floor with minimal braking. Bleeding them did'nt help and I even switched to SS lines and Ate blue fluid hoping that would help and it did'nt. \
So, right now since my pads are almost gone, I have to make a decision wether to go with the Ecs stage 2 kit or keep what I have and add a resevoir and fix the problem I'm having. 
#1 do you think the kit is going to be an improvement over what i already have? if so, how much? 
#2 Have you heard of anybody needing to add a vacuum resevoir? and do you think that will fix my problem?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*

Check out summitracing.com for vacuum reservoir. You might also need to replace the check valve on the brake booster hose.
As for the upgraded brakes themselves, that is another question. I would start off with upgrading to a beefy brake pad like Ferodo DS2500 and see how that fares. Usually the bang-forbuck on those big brake kits isn't that great. You can spend $400 on good quality pads/rotors to get 90% of the performance and feel of those kits that cost $2000.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (phatvw)*

i already using the Hawk HPS pads and have SS lines and good fluid so I know what my brakes are capable of, but wanted to see if there is a significant difference between the two because I do HPDE's alot.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_i already using the Hawk HPS pads and have SS lines and good fluid so I know what my brakes are capable of, but wanted to see if there is a significant difference between the two because I do HPDE's alot. 

Try upgrading just the front pads to DS2500. Leave the rears HPS. You'll be amazed at the improvement in feel and fade resistance. Also consider the tyrolsport.com caliper pin bushing upgrade. That improves the feel a lot too.
That is my setup and I to do a lot of HPDE's too


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (phatvw)*

Do you have a 300hp car? how do you know the kit wouldnt affect my car any different then yours?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*

Not 300HP, only 227whp VR6-turbo. Maybe 300HP next year








The horsepower doesn't matter really, its how hard you use the brakes and that totally depends on the race courses you run at, vehicle weight, and tires. I would experiment with more economical solutions before spending a ton of money on a BBK.
As it stands, I might have to upgrade my brakes beyond DS2500 next year if my skills and speeds improve. If I decide to run R-compound tires I would definitely have to upgrade the brakes - at least Hawk Blue and cooling ducts. With summer street tires I probably won't have to do too much.
Can you post up maps of the racetracks you frequent? Perhaps some folks that are more knowledgeable than me can offer some advice based on the expected speeds though each corner...


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (phatvw)*

My driving abilities are superb. The only cars that are faster then me on the track are track only cars, and even then there are a few might be quicker but they break down half way through the day. I don't want to be one of them. When your going around a turn on a track it your car depends on your suspension to keep it on the track. I need brakes which will be able to adaquatly dissipate the heat caused by the speeds at which I am travelling before hitting them. 
Anyone go from a Audi tt caliper to a Porsche Boxter caliper? please help!!


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*

Anyone have the ECS stage 2 kit?


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_I need brakes which will be able to adaquatly dissipate the heat caused by the speeds at which I am travelling before hitting them. 
Anyone go from a Audi tt caliper to a Porsche Boxter caliper? please help!!
The heat disiaption is only one aspect of braking performance. I can tell you right now that by simply upgrading to a more track oriented pad will help more than you can imagine. The better pads can operate at a higher temperature, they provide a higher cF so the car will stop more quickly. Its just something to think about before you shelling out big bucks for a brake upgrade. 
On to your question, I havent run the boxster brakes before but know a few that have and they loved them. 
WHat kind of speeds are you hitting on the straights?


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (NOVAdub)*

I've been hitting 120 but would go faster if I knew I could stop better.


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*

i'd try some track only pads on the TT rotors and some ducting. if that dosent work i'd go for a track pad on the r32 brake setup w/ ducts. that would be more than enough.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (Banditt007)*

I need to stick with the 12.3 inch rotor because my track wheels are 16's. That's kinda why I was thinking the Porsche Boxter calipers would be the perfect step up. 
I was using the hp+'s and they werent that much better


----------



## -KIX- (Nov 25, 2004)

Check for vacuum leaks on the check valve,that can affect your braking badly, my car has zimmermans for rotors and upgraded rear seup (ventilated)and a friends Leon (with 310 WPH) and with Porsches Big Reds, not that much difference beetween the 2, after my car had the check valve upgraded and checked for leaks.
We were seeing the far side of 130mph at th e end of the straight in the track, and no problem after heavy braking and doing quite some time at the track, just NEVER stop the car without proper cool down (at least 2 laps of cooling) dont do that and you ruin preety much everything...
Also make this test: go to 62mph , do a heavy braking you car should stop in 39 to 41 meters more than that...your not that good, better than that, dont waste your money (considering a Mk IV with normal weight). Do it 3 times in a row, your distances should never loose more than 5% of that distance (1 to 2 meters)....


----------



## Shad (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*

Why one would need a vaccum reservoir on a car that has a vaccum pump?








Air on ABS pump, anyone? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Shad at 9:08 PM 9-1-2006_


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (Shad)*

Well, I was told that because my turbo is capable of such high boost, it takes vaccuum away from the brakes. So you should install a resevoir to hold enough vaccuum for when you need it. I don't know.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*

All I know is want my brakes back


----------



## Shad (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_Well, I was told that because my turbo is capable of such high boost, it takes vaccuum away from the brakes. So you should install a resevoir to hold enough vaccuum for when you need it. I don't know.

That's why there's a check valve before the vaccum booster. I insist you should do a ABS pump bleeding. That's only possible with a VAG-COM.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: stock brakes to ecs stage 2: is it worth it? (Shad)*

wouldnt my abs light be on if it needed bleeding?


----------



## -KIX- (Nov 25, 2004)

I had the crappiest brakes ever when my check valve failed, I accelerated after a curve and when enterinf the chicannes and hitting the brakes, the pedal would go almsot to the floor before any braking occurr...a real PITA.
Changed check valve, fluid some seals and small hosses....my brakes were back...


----------



## Mohudsolo (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (-KIX-)*

The only reason the brake light would be on is if the pedal travel is long enough to trigger the warning light. Soft, spongy pedal is generally from bad components, air in the system, improperly installed or fitting pads, and some pads can give a softer pedal than others. Lack of proper assist should give a very hard pedal that takes a lot of effort but does not move very far. Shut the car off and pump the pedal a few times to use up the vacuum on the resivoir and feel the change, that is what happens with no vacuum. If you are using HPS pads on the track, that is also part of the problem, they are overheating and losing function. Some pads when overheated too much never work well again, some are fine when cooled off, I don't know about the HPS since I have not run them on track.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (Mohudsolo)*

My brakes would go almost all the way down, just like KIX. Especially after flooring it, they would be really spongy and barely work, and after a certain point, maybe halfway down, they would start to grab but the pedal would go all the way to the floor and I really had no ability to modulate it was like all or nothing. 
yah, at one point my HPS's almost caught on fire. It was after my first session out at the track, right after I had the brakes bled and new SS brake lines put on. They were smoking so bad I could'nt believe it!
Well, the brake pads are gone so I don't have to worry if they are going to work at the track anymore. 
So, right now I have the tt calipers, and I don't want to hear it, but I downgraded the size of my rotors a few months ago to the 11.3"ers so I could fit 15's for DR. I was willing to make the sacrifice betrween exceptional brakes and mediocre because I enjoy both DR and TR. And plus the Autotech rotors I had were cracked and I already had the rotors, which I got for free, it really didnt cost me anything, WEll







except for 2 sets of 15" DR wheels, (but I don't wanna go into that). 
Atleast I found out there is not much difference between Drag radials and slicks. 
I'm at a point right now where I just want focus mainly on Track. So since my pads are finished, I have to decide what i should do. Go with the ECS tuning stage 2 kit or just get a couple 12.3" rotors and use what I have. What do you think I should do?


----------



## Shad (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: (05GLI)*

I wouldn't choose a brake kit that uses proprietary rotors. I'd rather go with the Stage2 with 312mm OEM rotors.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (Shad)*

What do you mean by proprietary?


----------



## -KIX- (Nov 25, 2004)

*Re: (Mohudsolo)*

Excelent, yep brake fluid. lines, seals and PADS have tremendous effect on braking.
Check your vacuum valve, change to better brake fluid and change your pads and have them installed by a proffesional, after the change baby feather your brakes for 60 miles AT LEAST, let them seat and adjust by using them in a progresive manner (cook em slowly)....
Also I have taken advice twice from profesionals drivers on the track, and heavy use of brake is a surefire sign of bad technique, now I touch the brakes a lot less and my lap times have improved a lot http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Rythm and pace are more importan than acceleration and braking...
my .02


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (-KIX-)*

Thanks for the tips! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (05GLI)*

But what do you think is the best rotor/caliper combo out there in a 12.3" for somebody that tracks his car?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_But what do you think is the best rotor/caliper combo out there in a 12.3" for somebody that tracks his car? 

The BEST would be ECS 2-piece floating rotors (12.3") and the Porsche Boxter 4-piston calipers.

I have tried both the OEM caliper and the Porsche Boxter 4-piston caliper on 12.3" rotors. The Porsche has a more linear feel and easier modulation. The pad is larger so heat dissipation and fade resistance is improved.
The ECS 2-piece "floating" rotors reduce weight by up to 4 pounds per rotor and allow better cooling.

But you have to take into account the cost. Personally I don't think the cost is worth it.



_Modified by phatvw at 1:44 PM 9-3-2006_


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Well, considering I have to buy new pads and rotors anyway, I think I'll do it.
I'm all about making love to the track, if you don't have feeling in your brakes, then your not expressing your true emotions.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_Well, considering I have to buy new pads and rotors anyway, I think I'll do it.
I'm all about making love to the track, if you don't have feeling in your brakes, then your not expressing your true emotions.










Well said








Now you still have to choose a good brake pad. Since your'e so into the track, I recommend getting a track only pad for the front axle and swapping out on track day. The Porsche calipers make swapping pads a breeze!
Stick with Hawk HPS on both axles for everday and swap in Hawk Blue or something like that for track day. Something with relatively low cF: <0.5 so as to not push the bias to far forward, but with a higher operating temperature. It would be a total shame to see you put all this effort in and then run a combo street/track pad.



_Modified by phatvw at 3:42 PM 9-3-2006_


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Thanks for all the help guys!


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (05GLI)*

Guess what? I'm not doing it. I decided to keep my calipers and just get a set of OEM tt rotors and change my pads to Ferodo 3000's for the track and Hawk hps's for the street. I hope I made the right decision


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (05GLI)*

Thanks alot for the help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_Guess what? I'm not doing it. I decided to keep my calipers and just get a set of OEM tt rotors and change my pads to Ferodo 3000's for the track and Hawk hps's for the street. I hope I made the right decision









You're gonna love it! Hit up raceshopper.com for the best prices on those pads. IM me for a discount code.
Also investigate building some custom brake ducts and maybe lose the ABS splash shields...


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_You're gonna love it! Hit up raceshopper.com for the best prices on those pads. IM me for a discount code..


Cool! I would but I already ordered them from Mike Potter at parts4vws.com. They're good people http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Also investigate building some custom brake ducts and maybe lose the ABS splash shields...

I'll think about the ducts, mabe run them from my Performance-Cafe.com scoops http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

When you do all of this, make sure you really do a complete brake fluid flush and bleed ALL of the lines completely.
Youre problems really sound like you have some moisture in the lines, along with air. You said that the master cylinder was changed at one point. Was there a vacuum pulled on everything to bleed all of the air out of the ABS module and remaining lines? Replacing pads and rotors isnt going to fix air/moisture in the lines, so be sure to do that once its all done.
Good luck.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (Scuba2001)*

Yah, actually the did bleed the brakes, I think twice, and they still felt soft and spongy. I took the car to California Speedway and raced with them like that. I knew something was definitly wrong so I brought it back to the shop and told them what I thought the problem might be (thanks to all of you







) and they immediatly got defensive and told me I'm going to need bigger brakes if I am going to race and that the ones I had were not going to work the way I wanted them to. They were treating me like an idiot. I know that bigger rotors and 4 piston calipers would make a difference on the track. But on the street the brakes I had should have been working just fine as long as I wasn't stomping on them going 100+ mph at least a couple of times. Right? 
Since I had the car there to have my axle replaced and I needed new pads, I decided to let them do the work anyways. 
So, I've now had the car back for about a week and the brakes feel great!







So far, so good. I'll see how they really fair at the track in a couple weeks. I'll be using the Ferodos, of course. 
They told me at the shop that I might have to bleed my brakes at the track. What's the best and easiest way to do that?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05GLI* »_Yah, actually the did bleed the brakes, I think twice, and they still felt soft and spongy. I took the car to California Speedway and raced with them like that. I knew something was definitly wrong so I brought it back to the shop and told them what I thought the problem might be (thanks to all of you







) and they immediatly got defensive and told me I'm going to need bigger brakes if I am going to race and that the ones I had were not going to work the way I wanted them to. They were treating me like an idiot. I know that bigger rotors and 4 piston calipers would make a difference on the track. But on the street the brakes I had should have been working just fine as long as I wasn't stomping on them going 100+ mph at least a couple of times. Right? 
Since I had the car there to have my axle replaced and I needed new pads, I decided to let them do the work anyways. 
So, I've now had the car back for about a week and the brakes feel great!







So far, so good. I'll see how they really fair at the track in a couple weeks. I'll be using the Ferodos, of course. 
They told me at the shop that I might have to bleed my brakes at the track. What's the best and easiest way to do that? 

Good stuff. If you want to do a mini bleed at the track (just a few mL out of the calipers - not a full flush) you need to get speed bleeders. They plug in-place of the OEM bleeder screws and make one-man bleeding possible without a bunch of tools. I bled all 4 brakes in 15 minutes without taking off the rims! raceshopper.com has em. Also pickup an 11mm flare-nut wrench from Sears. use a block of wood under the brake pedal to prevent MC overextension.


----------



## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Sweet thanks!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (05GLI)*

Hey did you buy your gear yet?
I just wanted to add some more info. I recently tracked my car after a slew of upgrades (turbo, LSD, suspension, etc.) Anyway, I hit much higher top speeds than my last session: 135MPH+ vs 120MPH. My brake setup of 12.3" fronts with DS2500 did not cut it. The outboard pads melted a bit and left deposits on the rotors.
You should not have this problem with the DS3000 as they are much higher temp pads.

I also boiled the brake fluid (ATE super-gold) which is something you may run into. Do look into building some brake ducts or perhaps getting the curved vane oem-replica rotors from ECS as they are reported to cool much more efficiently than the oem rotors. I will probably do one or the other before my next track day.
Also I think I'm gonna get the Hawk Blue 9012 pads for the front axle. They are only $129 and should handle the same temps as DS3000, but with the same friction coefficient as DS2500.


_Modified by phatvw at 11:13 PM 9-19-2006_


----------

