# Engine weight to power ratios. What is the best, what are the numbers?



## teknikALLEN (Jul 14, 2010)

Thinking about hybrid engine swaps. At some point, no matter how much power you have, the weight & size of the engine is a factor. 

I know that with a light car, like a Mk1, your best bet is not just more power, but more power with the weight kept low. 
For example, I have been told that the 1.8t is a better swap than a VR6. The shortage of horsepower is made up for by the lower weight. 

You would think it would be easy to find the weight of engines and transmissions, but I am having a hell of a time..... 020 tranny is about 75lbs.... 

Just wondering about what the numbers are for popular engine/transmission combinations; 1.8 8v/020 NA, 2.0l 8vJH/020 Frankenstein NA, 2.0l 16v/020 NA, 2.5l 20v/02m NA, 2.8l 24v/02A NA 

What do you think... try to include some numbers: Horsepower to weight ratios..... 

Anyone?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I can't give you exact figures but my personal choice would be 1.8T/02a/02j. You say the 020 weighs in at 70 lbs, well an 02a/02j is 45 lbs heavier so 115lbs but is well worth the penalty because of it's MUCH higher torque capacity. A newer 1.8T (01 and up) with stock management produces 180hp 180 tq, basically the same as a 12V VR6 that weighs over 70lbs more than the 1.8T. Go standalone on the 1.8T and 200whp and 200wtq is easy to make been there done that.


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## teknikALLEN (Jul 14, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Good responce. I do prefer non boosted engines, hows the 2.5 20v with the 02a compare?


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

VR6 - 174hp+ (depending on year), 270-300lbs 
2.0 - 115hp, 200-230lbs 
2.5 - 170hp, ???lbs 
1.8T- 150-225hp (dep. on code), 282lbs 

dry weights include everything (turbo, pistons, mani, head, intake, crank, etcetc) except tranny, wiring, radiator, etcetc 

02A - 80lbs pre LSD install, 100-110 after (based on shipping info from getting the LSD installed) 
02J - same box, same approx weight. 
02O - about 68lbs 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...o2a-02M-o2m-transmissions-Transmission-Weight 

I'm not sure if the 2.5l will bolt up to an 020/J/A 

All weights were pulled from searches except my 02A weight. I would suggest just taking averages, as there are a lot of different answers floating around.


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## teknikALLEN (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for the link!









Just to show some weird possibilities in a Mk1:

I believe this NLS 2.5l Mk1 swap uses an 020... not clear though...








http://tinytex.com/4619026

This is a an 02m six speed into a Mk1 rabbit... caddy... extended cab... with a turbo diesel .....








http://tinytex.com/4343490

Haven't seen a 2.5l with an 02M... yet. The 02M looks very heavy...


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

be wary, i just read that first page and already don't like what i'm reading... modified 020 trans to fit... sounds like a different bell housing or adapter plates, maybe as far as custom input shaft. Lots of cut/weld in the bay to force the fit... and that build was done by a team in a professional shop. 

makes me nervous just reading it. BUT, there sure as hell aren't many of those around.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

That's one of the reasons I say my choice is 1.8T 02A/02J combo. Adapter mounts to fit this combo in a MK1 are readily available and not even very expensive. Plus my best friend has that very combo in his 90 G60 Corrado and the whole thing weighs in at 2600 lbs with a full fuel tank and 170 lb driver. I'm not sure how much lighter a MK1 would be but the C is FAST so I can only imagine....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

In a mk1 with a low torque setup 1.8t I would personally stick with the 020. Mk2 or up the o2a/j is easy enough to justify it.


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

I agree, for a boosted setup, it's hard to beat the 1.8t for power, tunability, and the amount of resources available. However, the electrical is a huge PITA.

For non boost, the VR6 is a great engine. good power, torque, and rather compact due to the 15 degree nested cylinders (that's why the weight is so much lower than ppl expect). Better than an ABA in my opinion IF you don't want/need much tuning after install.

If you want a cheap easy install with plenty of potential, the ABA is great; non-boosted it can pull about 200hp, boosted upwards of 400.

The 2.5 looks like a nightmare, and you get no added benefit over the VR6... lower power, lower torque, and that looks like a big engine.

The 020 transmissions were built for cars around 90hp or less, granted they can take more than that, but I personally wouldn't trust it without getting some reinforced internals on anything more powerful than 130hp.

The 02A gear boxes saw a ridiculous amount of useage on a wide variety of cars... especially for a box with such sloppy feel and weak differentials. But you pretty much have your choice of gear ratios already out there.

The 02J fixed the sloppy shift feel (you can use the 02j shift box, cables and tower on the 02A to fix that as well).


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

as an fyi I'm running a mk1 rabbit convertible with AMU code 1.8t and 02A transmission with Peloquin LSD. Stock AMU ECU (IMMO defeat), full mkIV wire harness, DBW.

Trans was rebuilt after shredding some 2nd and 3rd gear internals. I'm also currently shopping for an 02J shift box, cables and tower because I am sick of the slop.

By estimation, I'm at about 2100lb dry weight.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

2 quick comments: 1. a 1.8T is only a wiring PITA on factory management. They are cake with a standalone and with most standalones you can also ditch the crappy VAG coils.

2. Getting 200whp out of an ABA N/A is NOT cheap or easy. 150whp, sure no prob, but beyond that get your wallet out.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

3) 400whp aba is a built motor and a lot of good parts around it


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i have a power to weight ratio..in my sig..


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

Prof - agreed on the 1.8t, I'm running factory and wishing i had more money than time so i could go standalone, unfortunately, it's time i have more of, so I get to wade through factory management and read endless VAG wiring diagrams.

on the ABA, that's not an engine i've worked with, just going off of searches and forum perusal, so your info is likely better. 

need_a_VR6 - agreed


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

rstolz said:


> Prof - agreed on the 1.8t, I'm running factory and wishing i had more money than time so i could go standalone, unfortunately, it's time i have more of, so I get to wade through factory management and read endless VAG wiring diagrams.
> 
> on the ABA, that's not an engine i've worked with, just going off of searches and forum perusal, so your info is likely better.
> 
> need_a_VR6 - agreed


You could have a megasquirt 1 up and running on a 1.8T for about $500 with a wideband, MS2 + WB about $700 and a full blown MS3/3X (my choice) and WB for around $1000


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

you could do maestro for under 1000 and jsut wir eit all in if you go AWP(20v)


and 020 on a chipped 1.8t won't handle the 260ft.lbs or more that they can generate, plus..you'll need to run a tall trans in order to even enjoy any of it.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

secondly to add in:

you go 8vT but are running the 020, and your trying to make easily achieved 20v numbers, your wasting time on the 020 and losing spool and broadness of the powerband.

02J is the way, anything 4 cylinder will work great, if you take hte time to do it correctly and find a powerband style and power level and response you want.


for me..i wanted a fat wide powerband, that was incredibly useable, has torque and plenty of hp but saves weight, is efficient, and can actually net some MPG's


i ended going AWP, then building my AEB head coupled with my custom billet 3071r,630cc, 80mm tb, SEM intake manifold, a fully custom SS vband exhaust, water meth, cams, and custom software. attached to a TDI 02J with a peloquin.

i see [email protected] by 3900 rpm i go from 160whp to 400whp and 360+ft.lbs and it will climb to [email protected](it would go highe rif i had more revs) torque falls off around 6000 but slowly..at redline i'm makin 300ft.lbs still.

and this is on 92 pump

car is an 84 GLi, last weighed a few years ago it was 1946lbs with a full tank...and it's probably lost another 60-70lbs in the meantime


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## Conejo Negro (Apr 3, 2007)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5493491-Some-shots-of-my-buddies-Vr6-Bunny 


Gti drivertrain 349lbs 

Vr6 drivetrain 534lbs


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## teknikALLEN (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for the link....









Conejo ***** said:


> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5493491-Some-shots-of-my-buddies-Vr6-Bunny
> 
> 
> Gti drivertrain 349lbs
> ...


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