# Dear C2



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

First of all i have had bad experiences with C2 in the past, but i am going to take credit for not matching my hardware to their software specs. 
Second of all, I love being able to call Chris and have him take the order while he is sitting down to dinner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to customer service
That said, I would like to see an instruction manual included with their software. Something on their website, something on the vortex, something printed and include. Just anything.
I am speaking from experience with Gabe's (cabzilla) 99 mk3 vr6T. There are things that he knows from have conversations with Jeff, not just readily available information that i can passively find. 
- 3" tube between MAF and turbo. had he not talked to Jeff, we would have made a 4" inlet pipe. i mean 4" maf, 4" turbo inlet, why not 4" pipe.
- SAI solenoid valve - when the software turns off the SAI system, i removed all the hardware. Come to find out without the solenoid connected the oxygen sensor regulation is turned off now so it runs weird.
-Boost controller. He was running a profec spec B but it turns out that you cant use it with with a maf-based fuel system because it bleeds off boost to control the wastegate.
-there are other things but its late and im tired. I just wish there was something that gave you specs and details of the hardware to match their software.
All that said, im sure that 99% of people would be happy with the software out of the box. Sometimes it sucks to be that 1%.
congrats to c2 on creating an awesome product and I hope to see it developed a little further.
Kevin Antaki


_Modified by xpalendocious at 12:16 AM 8-21-2007_


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## AlexiGTIVR6 (Jul 21, 2000)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
-Boost controller. He was running a profec spec B but it turns out that you cant use it with with a maf-based fuel system because it bleeds off boost to control the wastegate.










dont you mean you cant use a blow-off valve instead of a DV valve becusue it vents to atmospher


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## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (AlexiGTIVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AlexiGTIVR6* »_








dont you mean you cant use a blow-off valve instead of a DV valve becusue it vents to atmospher

i mean what i said


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (AlexiGTIVR6)*

i emailed chris today and jeff a few days back. 
the new software (june of 07 to present) for the VRT or VRS/C cars is updated. no more need for SAI, rear O2, or cat. so no more funny running issues, you can delete all them and it will use the main O2 sensor like it should. 
S/C and Turbo software are the same, dont matter what chip or lb injectors.


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## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_i emailed chris today and jeff a few days back. 
the new software (june of 07 to present) for the VRT or VRS/C cars is updated. no more need for SAI, rear O2, or cat. so no more funny running issues, you can delete all them and it will use the main O2 sensor like it should. 
S/C and Turbo software are the same, dont matter what chip or lb injectors. 

oh really? this is where a manual would come to play. I need jeff in the thread to clear this up. Jeff is saying that even tho he has the SAI turned off you need the SAI solenoid plugged in to avoid problems.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*

maybe jeff is here








*a few things:

obd2 (all VW's do this) disables o2 control when the air pump and related equipment are not
installed on the car.

with no air pump you likely have no o2 control. (this doesn't matter much on the
older software (before june 2007))

older 42# softaware came in 2 flavors: turbo and sc versions.

My current obd42# software, eliminates the air pump, cat and rear o2 sensor.
it has been completely re-mapped form top to bottom. It is compaticaly with both turbo and SC
applications.

My suggestion: update software to the current 42# Vr6 tune.
Please contact [email protected] or call 502 895 3660
to sort the details.

-Jeffrey Atwood*
his words. not mine


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## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Dear C2 (punk rock kiel)*

The C2 software is being updated / reworked so often that hard copy instructions might not be practical. 
A better idea might be to post the latest and greatest on the C2 site, that way it would be easily updated / revised. 
Chris?


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
-Boost controller. He was running a profec spec B but it turns out that you cant use it with with a maf-based fuel system because it bleeds off boost to control the wastegate.


My Profec B is plugged into the side and top port of my WG and I didn't think it was venting anything at all. My car does run leaner at 16psi than it does at 11psi, but it did that with a mbc as well.
Either way, its not bleeding boost, maybe creating a vaccum leak. You can setup a BOV to bleed off boost, but its spins the turbo to oblivion and its not the situation we're talking about here.
With the mbc you could here hissing air from the solenoids. But from the profec its just clicking noises.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 ([email protected])*

that email i got from C2 was less than 2 weeks old. so it is the newest software out there. i dont know how they can improve on it because a few that have it say its a night and day difference from the old chips.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*























-Jeff


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: Dear C2 (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_






















-Jeff

What he's probably trying to say is that do you want him spending his time making new instruction manuals that apply to 5% of the people they are selling to instead of being out there tuning?
If so, I'd venture to say that it might incur an added cost....which may drive the cost of the product up.
The issues that popped up are easily fixable and by posting up here in FI you get most of the answers. Not only that, but you can get either of those guys on PM to answer your question.
I'm not speaking for anybody...just guessing this is why there are no instructions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I mean, the general idea is that if you are putting together a turbo kit you won't need these basic install instructions. 
Just my opinion - not necessarily a fact - and not meant with any ill will at all.


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*

Kevin, and all C2 customers.......I hear ya








**Not an excuse, but an explanation**
Jeff and I are having the website completely REDONE.....eCommerce, .pdf downloads, instructions, applications, the full monty.
We had previously paid an individual to do this, and after 4-6 months of _*working on it*_ he bailed and left us high-and-dry.
We have now hired a more reputable company, and they are quickly trying to make haste and launch a new site. Some of the PRIME objectives of the new site is, INFORMATION...not misINFORMATION








I take responsibility for NOT having this done to date, and am trying to turn it around.
Kevin, you are right on with your request, and I take it as a concerned cutsomter's input...not just a rant; so THANK YOU.
I appreciate everyone's continued support of C2Motorsports as we grow, and as we grow, we need to do things better. I hope that here in the not-so-distant future, we will have a Website that will equal our products.....informative, easy to use, and above all informative.
Chris
C2


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## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

Chris, I have a request for myself too







can you please please take care of my order. I've been waiting for too long








Thanks, Elie


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## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (C2Motorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *C2Motorsports* »_
Chris
C2

as always, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
I would like to push your product harder and having the information avail is very important for me to do that.


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## dreadlocks (May 24, 2006)

I dont think your ever going to get C2 to admit, therefore publish any information that implies you can use there software to remove required emissions products. Nor will you find many other 'Chip Tuners' admitting to these 'features' even through everyone knows they are available.
I know I was personally asked in the past not to comment on these so called 'features', I think I was one of the first to get the 'features' and report my feeback. All this information is now available indirectly but don't expect to just find it from any official source soon.. If you have a question how the software works your best bet is to PM Jeff.. He is always willing to talk about and explain this stuff in private. Hence the






















On another note I run a Profec B Spec II just fine on my C2 VRT.










_Modified by dreadlocks at 8:06 PM 8-21-2007_


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
-Boost controller. He was running a profec spec B but it turns out that you cant use it with with a maf-based fuel system because it bleeds off boost to control the wastegate.


this makes absolutely no sense. 
it's bleeding off exhaust, which is something the MAF never sees.
It's also how ALL boost controllers work If you didnt have an EBC, and just ran off the spring, it would still control boost the exact same way, just not as accurately.


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## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: Dear C2 (TBT-Syncro)*

There are 3 ports on a boost control solenoid. You can plumb the 3rd port (the vent port) back in to the intake after the maf just like VW does on the 1.8t cars with the N75 to avoid a small but important loss of metered air.


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## jetdavdub (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: (dreadlocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dreadlocks* »_I dont think your ever going to get C2 to admit, therefore publish any information that implies you can use there software to remove required emissions products. Nor will you find many other 'Chip Tuners' admitting to these 'features' even through everyone knows they are available.
I know I was personally asked in the past not to comment on these so called 'features', I think I was one of the first to get the 'features' and report my feeback. All this information is now available indirectly but don't expect to just find it from any official source soon.. If you have a question how the software works your best bet is to PM Jeff.. He is always willing to talk about and explain this stuff in private. Hence the






















On another note I run a Profec B Spec II just fine on my C2 VRT.









_Modified by dreadlocks at 8:06 PM 8-21-2007_

You could post it with removing emission equipment, it's just like in every other automotive application *Off Road Use Only* Most of our street cars should be labeled that








but I hear what you are saying.


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## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

The Euro VR6 like my car don't have SAI.
With the new software from Jeff, it is now possible to run the US ecu with the C2 software on the Euro cars and STILL have O2 control.
Jeff, is this correct?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (VR6rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6rocks* »_The Euro VR6 like my car don't have SAI.
With the new software from Jeff, it is now possible to run the US ecu with the C2 software on the Euro cars and STILL have O2 control.
Jeff, is this correct?


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Jeff


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (VR6rocks)*

Give that guy a 42# setup, so he can be a happy VR6 nut http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (dreadlocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dreadlocks* »_I dont think your ever going to get C2 to admit, therefore publish any information that implies you can use there software to remove required emissions products. Nor will you find many other 'Chip Tuners' admitting to these 'features' even through everyone knows they are available.

That's why these chips are for "Off road use only." What you choose to do with them, is out of their control, all they can do is sell you the product under these terms.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: Dear C2 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
this makes absolutely no sense. 
it's bleeding off exhaust, which is something the MAF never sees.
It's also how ALL boost controllers work If you didnt have an EBC, and just ran off the spring, it would still control boost the exact same way, just not as accurately.









He makes perfect sense.
Learn more about turbos, boost controllers, and wastegates.
Then my young padawan, you will be a jedi master. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Dear C2 (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_
He makes perfect sense.
Learn more about turbos, boost controllers, and wastegates.
Then my young padawan, you will be a jedi master. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

ok jedi master. explain to me how my profec is bleeding metered air.


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## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: Dear C2 (MKII16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKII16v* »_There are 3 ports on a boost control solenoid. You can plumb the 3rd port (the vent port) back in to the intake after the maf just like VW does on the 1.8t cars with the N75 to avoid a small but important loss of metered air.

I'm not your Jedi master but that makes sense to me.










_Modified by MKII16v at 3:50 PM 8-22-2007_


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Dear C2 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
ok jedi master. explain to me how my profec is bleeding metered air.

It's bleeding boost, thus delaying the signal to the WG, allowing you to run higher boost than the spring will support.


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## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_Give that guy a 42# setup, so he can be a happy VR6 nut http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'll have that please


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## BLKBOX (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Dear C2 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
- 3" tube between MAF and turbo. had he not talked to Jeff, we would have made a 4" inlet pipe. i mean 4" maf, 4" turbo inlet, why not 4" pipe.

WHAT?! I need a reason behind this. I just had 4" aluminum u-bends made up for my inlet and now it's no good?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Dear C2 (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_
It's bleeding boost, thus delaying the signal to the WG, allowing you to run higher boost than the spring will support.

isnt it actually just closing the back of the valve to create spring pressure? 
its not changing how much boost the spring sees, its changing how much pressure there is on the back of the spring.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: Dear C2 (cabzilla)*

Its been a while since I put in the profec, but 
I have one vac line on the side of the WG going to the solenoid
and one vac line on the top of the WG going to the solenoid
I don't see where there is a boost leak.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Dear C2 ([email protected])*

This car seems to run just fine with a full 4" intake pipe:









I never told Cabzilla he must do the 3 to 4 intake pipe, I told him a story from one of my other users and that is what he did to solve the issue.
Now everyone is all of the sudden in a panic???








-Jeff


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## BLKBOX (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Dear C2 (Jefnes3)*

^^^thanks, I was about to say. The rumor mill...I tell ya


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: Dear C2 (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_maybe jeff is here








*a few things:

obd2 (all VW's do this) disables o2 control when the air pump and related equipment are not
installed on the car.

with no air pump you likely have no o2 control. (this doesn't matter much on the
older software (before june 2007))

older 42# softaware came in 2 flavors: turbo and sc versions.

My current obd42# software, eliminates the air pump, cat and rear o2 sensor.
it has been completely re-mapped form top to bottom. It is compaticaly with both turbo and SC
applications.

My suggestion: update software to the current 42# Vr6 tune.
Please contact [email protected] or call 502 895 3660
to sort the details.

-Jeffrey Atwood*
his words. not mine

So the new #30 software needs the SAI still plugged in unlike the new #42correct? Mine is still connected...all I know it that it doesn't work and throws a code. I'd like to upgrade to the new #30 to see if this will help with my lean spike upon shifting.


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## SilverTrek12v (Dec 28, 2005)

I had made a 4"intake for my SC setup, the Maf reads 3x more air~ 20gps on idle and a/f's are 9-10s on idle ,it doesn't work.
Turbo setup's might not be affected as much


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## Patrick Swayze (Dec 19, 2006)

*Re: (SilverTrek12v)*

the boost controller portion seems to be fact because i was using a turbosmart mbc that was bleeding off boost and it made the car fall on its face rich in load situations. as soon as i took it off the problem was gone.
now i just need to find a proper boost controller.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (SilverTrek12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SilverTrek12v* »_I had made a 4"intake for my SC setup, the Maf reads 3x more air~ 20gps on idle and a/f's are 9-10s on idle ,it doesn't work.


we arent talking about maf, we're talking about the section post maf.










_Modified by TBT-Syncro at 9:59 PM 8-22-2007_


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## Ted Brogan (Dec 13, 2005)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

Since this seems to be the hot c2 thread toss some ideas my way, on light acceleration and under full boost the car runs awesome and has no problem lighting up the tires well into 3rd gear, but my problem lies in part throttle while trying to maintain a constant speed itll buck and fall on its face at which time the a/f will be in the region of 9.8-11:1 pretty much retarded rich at any time im not accelerating. If i was just gonna race the car i wouldnt be complaining but the ride to work sucks with it running like this








this is on older software with no o2's


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (Ted Brogan)*

you have the same issue i do. so i can tell you its the older software cause the car doesnt run on the O2 during wide open throttle. so thats why it goes rich. 
my software is a year old


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## SilverTrek12v (Dec 28, 2005)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*









Maf size never changed(4"), just the size of the pipe after(3" to 4").
the fact that the intake pipe (post maf) is bigger les restrictive ,more air is passing thru and the maf and is reading more air,wich affects the ECU/c2 softrware. Do a test log your maf with the two sizes


_Modified by SilverTrek12v at 7:57 AM 8-24-2007_


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (SilverTrek12v)*

so i know i prolly missed something but the size of the tube after the mass air cant really be any bigger than 3in anyway cause it needs to fit through the hole in the fender and the VR throttle body is 3in, so being any bigger isnt going to cause an issue. 
buy the new software or go standalone. tweaking little stuff isnt going to do anything but give you a headache. (fuel pressure doesnt count here cause that could be wrong anytime)


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_so i know i prolly missed something but the size of the tube after the mass air cant really be any bigger than 3in anyway cause it needs to fit through the hole in the fender and the VR throttle body is 3in, so being any bigger isnt going to cause an issue. 
buy the new software or go standalone. tweaking little stuff isnt going to do anything but give you a headache. (fuel pressure doesnt count here cause that could be wrong anytime)

"Just for talk of the 4" intake"
Id say it can be larger than 3", but In your case it cant be due to the fender hole ..but you are also running a Supercharger ..Most c2 users are running Turbos and usually a 4" intake isnt a fitment issue..I personally don't think a 4" intake is going to be a problem..Jeff mentioned a 3" intake solved a customer of his problem...opposed to the prior 4" intake..But other than that..the rumor of a 4" intake not working well with the c2 software is just that..a "rumor"..
Xanthus is running a 4" intake on a 35r on his c2 vrt and i havent heard of any problems from him..( on the fourms ) I also don't see why it would cause a problem..If i had a 4" inlet on my turbo I would have redone my intake from a 3" - 4"..But I bought my turbo used and it has a 3" inlet..I doubt the difference is even noticeable..For instance..When i spoke to a tech at Precision turbo..I asked him the difference between their T04S compressor housing (4" inlet) and their T04E compressor housing (3" inlet) and the tech told me maybe 10hp and only worth upgrading to if your current turbo is maxed out..which is almost nothing when you putting out over 400whp.. So based off that Id assume the difference between a 3" and 4" intake is probably next to nothing..of course if it has to do with tuning\software requirement's in the future







..but for now it currently does not..


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## vr604 (Feb 19, 2003)

I got a full 4" inlet and never noticed any abnormal issues with it, ran great When I used to have my 30# tune it did weird things but that was easily remedied...with 42# lol


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