# Hawk HPS good enough for occasional club track days?



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

Looking for opinions on the HPS. From what I've found on the HP+, much better track pad, perhaps a little too aggressive for daily driving? Which leads me down the path of dealing with more fade from the HPS on the occasional club track day (perhaps a couple a year.) Anyone with specific experience using the HPS on the track, looking for opinions. Don't want to swap pads at the track, but deal with the best compromise. All opinions welcome, thanks...


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Yes, I use HPS most of the time, I used HP+ once and couldn't stand the squeel and didn't think there was that noticable a diff.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Hawk HPS good enough for occasional club track days? (PDX 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PDX 337* »_Looking for opinions on the HPS. From what I've found on the HP+, much better track pad, perhaps a little too aggressive for daily driving? Which leads me down the path of dealing with more fade from the HPS on the occasional club track day (perhaps a couple a year.) Anyone with specific experience using the HPS on the track, looking for opinions. Don't want to swap pads at the track, but deal with the best compromise. All opinions welcome, thanks...


For your car and especially with your performance mods, Hawk HPS all around may not be good enough for hitting Portland International Raceway. If you're just doing local Autocross, then they ought to be fine though.
For track days and performance street driving I recommend:
- Ferodo DS2500 on the front axle
- Hawk HPS or Ferodo DS2000 on the rear axle.
Why two different pads? Read on...
I tried Hawk HP+ but couldn't stand the noise on the street. I settled on Ferodo DS2500 on the front axle which has similar grip to Hawk HP+. I chose Hawk HPS for the rear axle. This combo shifts the brake bias towards the front yielding better balance under heavy braking and much less ABS activation during panic stops on the street. It is also a great combo for the street with stock levels of initial grip, and even better grip once the pads heat up. Fade resistance is top notch too.
I am thinking of stepping up the rears to Ferodo DS2000 once my Hawk HPS wear out since they tend to overheat a bit on the racetrack with my 9.1" rotors. They should be fine with your 10.1" vented rear rotors though. The DS2500 are a great match for the 12.3" vented front rotors.

Some background on MkIV brakes for ya:
MkIV cars are rear-brake biased from the factory to account for the added weight of passengers and a full trunk of groceries. There is no mechanical proportioning valve, so proportioning under emergency conditions is handled entirely by the ABS computer. Having the bias set to the rear is an engineering tradeoff made by the VW designers. Shifting the bias towards the front with grippy front pads will alter the braking characteristics of the car under extreme conditions, especially when the rear end is heavily loaded. Extra care should be taken when driving with a full load (full load is several hundred pounds of cargo and 4 passengers btw).

More info on brake pads here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1740420


_Modified by phatvw at 1:37 AM 5-17-2005_


----------



## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

For your car on the track, I'd recommend Ferodo DS2500 or Carbotech Panther Plus at the front, and Hawk HPS at the rear. 
HPS is not a track pad. It's a decent performance street pad and isn't bad for autocrossing. But it doesn't have the thermal range for full out race track use.


----------



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Racer_X)*

much appreciate the comments. Hadn't considered using different compunds for front vs rear. Yes, all track days will most likely be at PIR which has a huge front straight directly followed by a 2nd gear chicane. Anyone recommend best sources for Ferodo pads? 
More info on brake pads here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1740420
excellent link, btw.


_Modified by PDX 337 at 6:49 PM 5-17-2005_


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (Racer_X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Racer_X* »_For your car on the track, I'd recommend Ferodo DS2500 or Carbotech Panther Plus at the front, and Hawk HPS at the rear. 

I used DS2500 on the 12.3" brakes in front and HPS in the rear when I did 2 track days earlier this year. At Gingerman the DS2500 started to deteriorate. I finished them off at Road America. Basically, the pads overheated. My current theory is that the rears were not doing enough of the work, so the fronts took more and more of a beating. It might also have something to do with the ABS kicking in once or twice while the pads were good and hot, creating hot spots. My server appears to be down right now or I'd post pics. Anyway, I would use a more balanced rear pad if you can - I don't think HPS has a high enough friction VS the DS2500.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

http://www.raceshopper.com has the best prices on DS2500 and HPS, but they do not carry DS2000. You need to email them your zipcode for a quote.
http://www.Parts4vws.com has DS2500 for front and DS2000 for rear. They are listed as "11.3" fast road pads" or something like that. Make sure you email them to confirm which compound you are getting!
I think these are the right ones:
http://www.parts4vws.com/catal...P590H
http://www.parts4vws.com/catal...P541S
Dan


_Modified by phatvw at 11:07 AM 5-17-2005_


----------



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

great, thanks for the info! So just for args sake, Dan you haven't tried the ferodo DS2500 for both front and rear? Too aggressive for a daily driver?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (PDX 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PDX 337* »_great, thanks for the info! So just for args sake, Dan you haven't tried the ferodo DS2500 for both front and rear? Too aggressive for a daily driver?
 I have them on my stage 3 + GLI , which is the same as brake setup as your 337 and they work awsome , just alittle dusty.( but less than factory ) I have the 2500 front/ 2000 rears got them from mike potterman







Bob.G


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (PDX 337)*

I haven't tried DS2500 on the rears. I think that might be pushing it a little much for the street. DS2000 in the rear should be quite good. In fact, please get them and tell me how they feel on your gti before my Hawk HPS rears wear out








BTW rracerguy, what do you think of the 2500/2000 combo?



_Modified by phatvw at 2:35 PM 5-17-2005_


----------



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

probably will happem within the next month, I'll let you know...thanks again for the info. Better yet, come on down to PIR for a track day this summer, we can do an on course comparison!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (PDX 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PDX 337* »_probably will happem within the next month, I'll let you know...thanks again for the info. Better yet, come on down to PIR for a track day this summer, we can do an on course comparison!









Hehe I might just do that... Or you can come up to SIR/Pacific Raceways


----------



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

true...ok, one more question. Checked the Ferodo uk site, and they do not list the DS2500 on there anymore, only the DS2000 and DS3000. Is the DS2500 a discontinued item? Just wondering if I need to snag a set pronto before they disappear forever...


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (PDX 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PDX 337* »_true...ok, one more question. Checked the Ferodo uk site, and they do not list the DS2500 on there anymore, only the DS2000 and DS3000. Is the DS2500 a discontinued item? Just wondering if I need to snag a set pronto before they disappear forever...









I think they are a market specific item, so may not be available in all countries. They are designed "bridge the gap" between the 2000 and 3000 compounds. I recall there being a few different Ferodo websites if you look around on google. I never found that UK one to be particularly helpful...


----------



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

perfect. thanks!


----------



## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (PDX 337)*

I've used HPS for 3 track days so far, and have two more coming up in June. No problems whatsoever. However, make sure you flush your fluid with racing fluid and maybe get SS lines. If you boil your fluid, it won't matter about the pads.


----------



## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (dcomiskey)*

I've used HPS pads all around for two track days and have only experienced fluid-related fade (since changed to better fluid). Of course, both of the tracks are not known for being hard on brakes. If you are going to a track with lots of braking, you will probably want more than performance street pads on your car.
Here are the tracks:
BeaveRun: http://www.beaverun.com
Nelson Ledges: http://www.soloracer.com/nelson.html
Good luck, have fun and DRIVE SAFE!


----------



## PDX 337 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (collins_tc)*

SS lines and better fluid will certainly be involved in this upgrade.


----------



## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: (PDX 337)*

would just pad upgrades be enough? how critical would it be to upgrade to the larger rotors?


----------



## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (traffic)*

Our stock brakes are actually pretty darn good, so you'll gain a lot just by using the right kind of pads and flushing the fluid with something with higher temperature ratings (ATE Super Blue, Motul, Pentosin Racing, etc.). I know some people use Ford Heavy Duty fluid as well (available at Ford dealerships) because of it's high temp rating.
I would start there and then upgrade as you feel is needed.


----------



## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_would just pad upgrades be enough? how critical would it be to upgrade to the larger rotors?

Larger rotors aren't going to help. If anything, lighter, floating rotors would be ideal. But if you shift the weight further out, you might actually see a perf decrease in your car.


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (PDX 337)*

*PhatVW*....you have got to go drive Portland Intl Raceway! I loved it!!!! 
I need to drive Pacific Raceways, though.

*Traffic*, I have the power bleeder for the brakes if you need. Please let me know. I also have the tool for retracting the rear brakes. Dan used them the last time he did the rear brakes.


----------



## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (eggroller)*

A bunch of VW's went ot VIR last month. One guy (sanchO on here) ran HPS front and rear on his 337. I believe his impression was there was some fade on them at the end of his runs. VIR has two long straights. The front one has some pretty heavy braking. 
I run stock pads on the street and HP+ on the fronts for the track with stock rears. My car has full 337 brakes that I added.
My stock pads are almost shot, so I was also considering HPS all around for street use and maybe something more agressive on the fronts for the track. 
Anyone have opinions on the Axxis Ultimates? They are priced the same as the HPS's and say they are performance street pads that can be used for occasional track days.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (dcomiskey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcomiskey* »_Larger rotors aren't going to help. If anything, lighter, floating rotors would be ideal. But if you shift the weight further out, you might actually see a perf decrease in your car.

Larger rotors definitely helped on the racetrack. When I had the stock 11.3" rotors, the brakes got so hot, that the clear coat on my Monte Carlo rims started to peel off. I did not have that problem with the 12.3" rotors. Keep in mind that this was on a pretty brake-intensive track with a 120mph->60mph turn closely followed by a 80->25mph s-curve. I suspect that spending $20 on ducting would have eliminated the problem as well, but for me it was easier to get bigger rotors than disassemble the front bumper and risk breaking something. 
When it comes to the simple mechanical parts like suspension and brakes, I never break anything, but every time I have touch trim or body work, I always end up gouging or cracking something











_Modified by phatvw at 12:33 PM 5-25-2005_


----------



## ScooterMac01 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Just got back from PerFormance driving school at Pacific Raceway, and ran PBR Ceramics all around on slotted/grooved rotors with SS lines and fresh ATE blue fluid, and the brakes where spot on all day on stock size rotors and calipers. though the typical number of laps where 8 to 10 per round and I was not as hard on my brakes as I otherwise might have been with more seat time around the track.

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Keep in mind that this was on a pretty brake-intensive track with a 120mph->60mph turn closely followed by a 80->25mph s-curve. 
 <-- down a steep hill to that S turn...nice speed through 1 BTW, best I managed was about 112 to 114...kept jackin 8 into 9 up...
Cheers!
Scott


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (ScooterMac01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ScooterMac01* »_Just got back from PerFormance driving school at Pacific Raceway, and ran PBR Ceramics all around on slotted/grooved rotors with SS lines and fresh ATE blue fluid, and the brakes where spot on all day on stock size rotors and calipers. though the typical number of laps where 8 to 10 per round and I was not as hard on my brakes as I otherwise might have been with more seat time around the track.
<-- down a steep hill to that S turn...nice speed through 1 BTW, best I managed was about 112 to 114...kept jackin 8 into 9 up...
Cheers!
Scott

Yeah my speedometer said 120, but I know the VW's read about 5PMH high at those speeds, so more like 115. I saw a modded Dodge Viper get past 150 one time!!!!!!! All I could say was Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!


----------



## ScooterMac01 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Our big players that day was 2 GT3's and a heavily moded Ferrari Challenge Strada (talk about amazing getting passed at double your speed, what a sound!)...and a handful of M3's and one mean assed Mini. One of the Porsche guys came over and had obviously never seen a G60 motor that my friends Rado had in it...could not figure out what the noise was under the wee white hood.


----------



## 1lowVento (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: (ScooterMac01)*

HPS is more of a street pad like most people have been saying. I run the HP+ for lapping and street use. Agreed the squeel is pretty bad at low speeds but it beats having to swap pads all the time. I have done 2 lapping days at Mosport raceway and experienced brake fade once and that was after 5 hard laps and doing roughly 190km/h down the back straight before entering the "esses". Mosport is a very highspeed track and requires some heavy braking at some parts. All in all I was very impressed with the HP+. The Hp+ compound is not an all out track pad but more than does the job for a lapping day here and there! Hawk blue's...now thats some serious stuff but a no go on a street application!


----------



## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: (1lowVento)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eggroller* »_Traffic, I have the power bleeder for the brakes if you need. Please let me know. I also have the tool for retracting the rear brakes. Dan used them the last time he did the rear brakes.

Ray, yes I would be very interested. I'm coming up on time to flush my lines. Also thinking about doing a brake upgrade as soon as I get my suspension sorted out.
The downside of trying out yours' and Dan's ride is I end up spending money on parts. Gotta save for track days!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (traffic)*

Ray, Paul
I signed up for the Alfa Romeo track day on June 15 (4PM-10PM) at Pacfic raceways. I ought to do a fluid flush before then... but I've only done brakes with the manual pump-the pedal method. Is it hard to use the pressure bleeder?


----------



## HilF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

ray, dan, let me know when this is happening. i wanna watch...plus i have a tip to make your motive bleeder a little cooler ray.







(possibly)


----------



## ScooterMac01 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Hey Phat,
The Alfa club make you go through their driving school, or do you have enough track days to get on with out it?
Cheers!
Scott


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (ScooterMac01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ScooterMac01* »_Hey Phat,
The Alfa club make you go through their driving school, or do you have enough track days to get on with out it?
Cheers!
Scott

I believe all you need is one track course with 1:1 instruction under your belt get into the "c" group. The other groups need a little more experience. I will be starting in the "b" group this time


----------



## ScooterMac01 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I have one day with the ProFormance school...wonder if that qualify's, or if they want to see what I know...Need to learn passing signals and where they run the passing zones at I would imagine.
Cheers!
Scott


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (ScooterMac01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ScooterMac01* »_I have one day with the ProFormance school...wonder if that qualify's, or if they want to see what I know...Need to learn passing signals and where they run the passing zones at I would imagine.
Cheers!
Scott

Yeah that should be fine.
Lets move this part of the discussion over to the alfa thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1983331


----------



## ScooterMac01 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Now I just have to convince the wife how much safer a TT upgrade would be with the aforementioned pads fore and aft.

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Lets move this part of the discussion over to the alfa thread

Migrating like a lemming----> -------> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1983331


----------

