# School Me: High compression turbo setups



## PrimaVW (Dec 22, 2005)

Good performance history? Can a forged internals engine handle it? Pros and cons compared to low compression? Recommended PSI? Lay your knowledge on me!

edit: wow I totally neglected this thread :facepalm:, didn't think it'd make 4 pages...

The car will be used for a daily driver, will be running right around 6psi and if I stay high compression it will be at the stock aba compression ratio. I will be running pump gas and will be using a chipped eprom. 

basically just looking to see if building an engine is the way to go or if at 6psi a stock aba (forged internals) will take the pressure... I know everyone says to lower the compression but this usually results in loss or tq/hp when the engine is not spooling (like around town, stoplight to stoplight)


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Does nothing more than increase throttle response. 1 point in compression is worth ~4% power, not worth it unless you like using expensive fuel, risking your engine and the expense of having a really good tuner.


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## filthyeuropean (Sep 23, 2006)

Dave926 said:


> Does nothing more than increase throttle response. 1 point in compression is worth ~4% power, not worth it unless you like using expensive fuel, risking your engine and the expense of having a really good tuner.


Exactly. Lower CR is best for boost.

/thread


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Not really worth it on a street car that runs on pump gas unless your power goals are in the 200-300whp range and you're looking for the best possible response/spool. 
You can make more power at lower boost and spool a few hundred RPM sooner, but that's about it. I've tuned a ~11:1 16v and had to be very conservative with the timing on 94 octane. A 9.5:1 16v by comparison will take about 12-14* more timing at the same boost, I think they'd make more or less the same power because of the timing bump.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

First of all we need to define high compression. I personally think stock compression on E85 is the ticket. What are your power goals? What is the car being used for? It all factors into the decision.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Wait, lets talk what kind of fuel are we looking to use?

E85 is not everywhere, closest station to me is an hour away.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Wait, lets talk what kind of fuel are we looking to use?
> 
> E85 is not everywhere, closest station to me is an hour away.


Well then dont use it. Like I said it all factors into your decision. I happen to have it at almost all gas stations around where I live. If I dont then a couple key strokes and I can run on just about anything that has been used to fuel an automobile.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

sp_golf said:


> Not really worth it on a street car that runs on pump gas unless your power goals are in the 200-300whp range and you're looking for the best possible response/spool.
> You can make more power at lower boost and spool a few hundred RPM sooner, but that's about it. I've tuned a ~11:1 16v and had to be very conservative with the timing on 94 octane. A 9.5:1 16v by comparison will take about 12-14* more timing at the same boost, I think they'd make more or less the same power because of the timing bump.


For the sake of going through the exercise in going over the debatable pros/cons, lets take a stab at it...

I'd bet they do make similar power but I'd bet the spool and transient response on the motor with better overall VE is better. On top of that, your off boost mileage is better. It allows the use of larger cams which helps top end breathing which in turn allows for less chance of pre-ignition due to the change in dynamic compression which also allows more timing.

The negatives are, less tolerate to poor tuning/poor fuel. 

Seeing Kevin tune Todd's 10:1 16v and make ~700whp show high comp FI is possible and practical. I understand it's race fueled but it's still getting the job done....


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

In my opinion, I would run the highest compression the fuel I could get will allow. 

In my aba, going from stacked gaskets back to 9.6:1 was night and day difference with spool on my 57trim .63 exh.....this is just my feeling, no data logs.

Overall lower compression is safer, more margin for error with tuning
Also, I've seen some instances of making similar power either way, just the tuning parameters were much different.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Again I am going to say that if you have access to E85 then use it.


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## vwturbofox (Jul 31, 2010)

just run water/methanol injection cheap and safe to use.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

vwturbofox said:


> just run water/methanol injection cheap and safe to use.


Im just not sold on plastic sprinkler parts to keep my engine alive. I would much rather have a better tune that works with the fuel I have available.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> Im just not sold on plastic sprinkler parts to keep my engine alive. I would much rather have a better tune that works with the fuel I have available.


:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Without knowing what fuel and whether or not the engine is chip tuned or standalone you really can't say what compression is best.

Run the highest you can for your fuel and tune that will allow you to not detonate and/or pull excessive amounts of timing.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Piss injection is worthless if its not evenly distributed.


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

wish i had e85 closer


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> wish i had e85 closer


You can't make enough power on 93? What is this a drag car?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> You can't make enough power on 93? What is this a drag car?


You will never make more power on pump then you can from E85.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You will never make more power on pump then you can from E85.


Thanks. I realize that since E85 has a higher octane than 93.

My point is that you'll make 400-500whp on 93 octane . I believe those are both fwd small tired VW's in his profile. Why does he need E85?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You will never make more power on pump then you can from E85.



Also depends on the application. E85 makes more power because you can run more compression, boost, and timing. If you can do one or all of those things then sure you'll make more power. The actual fuel makes less power than gasoline.


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

you can make big power off of 93 octane. but you can make more off of e85. He doesn't need to run e85 it would help him make more power.. more timing-higher octane. with high compression you'll need more octane e85 is a easy way to get that.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> you can make big power off of 93 octane. but you can make more off of e85. He doesn't need to run e85 it would help him make more power.. more timing-higher octane. with high compression you'll need more octane e85 is a easy way to get that.


Right, but you said you wish you had E85. Just asking what your setup is and what kinda power you're looking to make.

I think it only makes sense for standaloned drag cars personally. You'll make more than enough on 93 for everything else. Especially fwd.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Right, but you said you wish you had E85. Just asking what your setup is and what kinda power you're looking to make.
> 
> I think it only makes sense for standaloned drag cars personally. You'll make more than enough on 93 for everything else. Especially fwd.


E85 is the best way to make power and not have to take the motor apart(on the stock motor). This makes it possible to do alot more on the cheap. When you factor in the fact that you can get most VW motors for about $100 it makes sense to treat them like they are expendable.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> E85 is the best way to make power and not have to take the motor apart(on the stock motor). This makes it possible to do alot more on the cheap. When you factor in the fact that you can get most VW motors for about $100 it makes sense to treat them like they are expendable.


"Best". I love that term. Depends on the application man. 1) You aren't getting a decent vr6 for $100 and 2) Add in the price of install or opportunity cost of your time to install and the real price tag is relatively high on a motor replacement.

Can you get E85? Do you have standalone? How much boost can you push with your turbo and support with your fueling?

Until E85 chip tunes become readily available it's cheaper and easier to make ~400-500whp with a chipped 93 octane car.

Stock motor yes, but how are you tuning it? I'd rather spend a few hrs putting a spacer and chip in then hooking up and then the never ending tune saga of standalone


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> "Best". I love that term. Depends on the application man. 1) You aren't getting a decent vr6 for $100 and 2) Add in the price of install or opportunity cost of your time to install and the real price tag is relatively high on a motor replacement.
> 
> Can you get E85? Do you have standalone? How much boost can you push with your turbo and support with your fueling?
> 
> ...


Chip tunes are for people who dont know that there are better options out there because clowns like you get horny everytime someone asks how they should tune their car. You dont have a clue about anything other then your precious chip tune. And for what it would require to have a "fueling kit" you can have a good standalone.

$100 VR6s are all over the place. They are the ones hooked up to dead automatics.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Chip tunes are for people who dont know that there are better options out there because clowns like you get horny everytime someone asks how they should tune their car. You dont have a clue about anything other then your precious chip tune. And for what it would require to have a "fueling kit" you can have a good standalone.
> 
> $100 VR6s are all over the place. They are the ones hooked up to dead automatics.


:laugh: Nice insult man. Some life advice. Don't feel so threatened by people that have a different viewpoint than you do. It's gonna happen alot so you're setting yourself up for much frustration. Globalization will eat you alive. Stay open minded and leave the insults to the kids on the playground:thumbup:

Call it what you want. I make more power than I can use on the street and I run right up to roll bar limit at the track on a chip tune that runs like OE. That's what I wanted so I call that a pretty smart, well thought out decision on my part. :beer: for me.

Lastly. You wont be $100 all in. IDK about you, but I can make $$ with my time. Putting a motor in my own car is a day that I could have been making $$ working so there's a cost there.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

TIGninja said:


> Chip tunes are for people who dont know that there are better options out there because clowns like you get horny everytime someone asks how they should tune their car. You dont have a clue about anything other then your precious chip tune. And for what it would require to have a "fueling kit" you can have a good standalone.
> 
> $100 VR6s are all over the place. They are the ones hooked up to dead automatics.


Hahaha! Chuck tellin it like it is!!!

I wish I had E85 as an option. I agree its 100% the way to go regardless of budget. I'll be setting a second map to allow more boost to run e85 for track.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Fast929 said:


> Hahaha! Chuck tellin it like it is!!!


Not really. Unless insults and narrow mindedness are your thing then he's your man:laugh:

Your assumptions are that everyone is going standalone and/or needs the power that standalone/E85 could potentially provide. That's simply not the case for all or most.

People run chip tunes for all sorts of reasons. Price, simplicity, or maybe they have other things to do with their time than play with a tune. Maybe they're getting an advanced degree, are in a band, have other hobbies, etc. That makes them an idiot?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Not really. Unless insults and narrow mindedness are your thing then he's your man:laugh:
> 
> Your assumptions are that everyone is going standalone and/or needs the power that standalone/E85 could potentially provide. That's simply not the case for all or most.
> 
> People run chip tunes for all sorts of reasons. Price, simplicity, or maybe they have other things to do with their time than play with a tune. Maybe they're getting an advanced degree, are in a band, have other hobbies, etc. That makes them an idiot?


And by the time they are done they could have made more power per dollar spent by running standalone. 

I know full well the benefits of chip tuning because i am very capable of chip tuning my own car. Instead I have the ability to change maps to run whatever fuel and make more power if I should so desire. It also gives the ability to do other things that the stock ecu is not capable of like boost by gear and boost by throttle.

I looks to me like you are the narrow minded one.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> I looks to me like you are the narrow minded one.


I must disagree. Yo wont see me making broad declarations like "best" or "always the way to go". Everything isn't ideal for everybody. 

I didn't need to run standalone or tune a car to achieve my goals and neither did alot of others. Not everyone is interested in the dyno competition internet wars. Most are fwd cars that are street driven. There's a limit to the power they need.

By the time they are done what? Popping in a chip? It takes 5 min.

Standalone/E85 etc. is great for big power, but it's nice to have a logical reason for going that route like a 9/10 sec. timeslip. Otherwise the goal is likely winning an internet popularity contest which is sad


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Not really. Unless insults and narrow mindedness are your thing then he's your man:laugh:
> 
> Your assumptions are that everyone is going standalone and/or needs the power that standalone/E85 could potentially provide. That's simply not the case for all or most.
> 
> People run chip tunes for all sorts of reasons. Price, simplicity, or maybe they have other things to do with their time than play with a tune. Maybe they're getting an advanced degree, are in a band, have other hobbies, etc. That makes them an idiot?


The problem I have with it is while I agree, there is no best way, every time the question comes up regarding fueling options or management, you seem to come in pushing your chip tuned stock block VR and stating how much power it makes. I've been around a long while and I've seen it countless times.

Where I'll disagree is the constant knock against standalones and your perchant for referencing the constant need for tuning. I'll drop ya a little secret. If your were actually monitoring and logging your motors running conditions, you'd figure out pretty quickly, yours isn't tuned particularly well. Its physically impossible to develop a chip to be ideally optimized for your setup.

Listen, I'm all for a chip tune as an option but if you spent as much time learning how to properly setup a standalone system as you do selling your "chipped" VR on here, i would wager your tune might change...


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Fast929 said:


> The problem I have with it is while I agree, there is no best way, every time the question comes up regarding fueling options or management, you seem to come in pushing your chip tuned stock block VR and stating how much power it makes. I've been around a long while and I've seen it countless times.
> 
> Where I'll disagree is the constant knock against standalones and your perchant for referencing the constant need for tuning. I'll drop ya a little secret. If your were actually monitoring and logging your motors running conditions, you'd figure out pretty quickly, yours isn't tuned particularly well. Its physically impossible to develop a chip to be ideally optimized for your setup.
> 
> Listen, I'm all for a chip tune as an option but if you spent as much time learning how to properly setup a standalone system as you do selling your "chipped" VR on here, i would wager your tune might change...


Yeah and certain people come in pushing standalone or tune your own car like TIGNinga. No need to result to 12 yr. old level insults because someone has a different opinion.

Countless times? So you are agreeing with me.

Not tuned well. This is where engineering/if it were a perfect world gets in the way of reality. Is the car reliable? Yes. Does it make more power than I can use legally on the street? Yes. Is it enough power to run to the roll bar limit at the track? Yes. Is the driveability good enough to where I can't tell the difference between OE and my chip other than the power? Yes. That's all you need to know.

I could make the argument that if the guys pitching the standalone got a life outside of playing with their laptop/cars that there view of chipped cars might change. 

Once again. Everyone's budget, goals, time, interests are different. There is no right answer. You don't have to like my opinion, but I'll keep on giving it just like you do.:beer:

Answer this question. Who has a higher combined net income? C2, United, VF or the top 3 standalone tuners that tune VW/Audi's. Answer. It aint even close. People want chip tunes b/c it get's them to their goal in the shortest time with the least cost.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Answer this question. Who has a higher combined net income? C2, United, VF or the top 3 standalone tuners that tune VW/Audi's. Answer. It aint even close. People want chip tunes b/c it get's them to their goal in the shortest time with the least cost.


Who cares? VW audi people are just starting to realize what the rest of the car tuning industry has always known. Generic tunes suck.Only VW people use off the shelf tunes anymore because people like you are here getting your cheerleader on in every thread. Its one of the reasons that people dont bring their cars to a competent tuner to have a custom tune done for their cars. People like you are one of the reasons the VW scene is soooooo far behind the real world. I know you think you know everything because you read it on a forum but in reality you really dont know anything about what you speak of.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Who cares?

Obviously alot of people. That was my point. That's how those companies stay in business and have a building with employees vs. working part time tuning cars on the road or on the side.

Your stuck on proving a point. I'm saying what do the masses want. There are obviously a decent % that want kits and chip tunes or those companies like C2, Kinetic, Vf, United, etc. wouldn't be in business.

Again:laugh: "Generic tunes suck". How does my tune suck if it allows me to achieve my goals for $350 and 5 min. to install? Take your bias out of it. Chips work for MANY people including me and they work very well.:beer:

The way you see it isn't fact. It's just how you see it. Insults and "sucks" doesn't do much for your argument.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Who said I know everything? I know what has worked for me and that's what I'm speaking to.

I'm not the one saying one way is best. Chip has worked very well for me and many others and I'll keep on sayin it.

This isn't the first time w/ you. Is it because I make more power and am faster on a chip tune bolt-on setup than you are? Get over it.:wave:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Who cares?
> 
> Obviously alot of people. That was my point. That's how those companies stay in business and have a building with employees vs. working part time tuning cars on the road or on the side.
> 
> ...


All the worlds fast VW run some kind of programmable engine management and some sort of alcohol (methanol or ethanol). That is a fact.Most of the fastest street cars also run some form of alcohol as well.


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## vwturbofox (Jul 31, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Im just not sold on plastic sprinkler parts to keep my engine alive. I would much rather have a better tune that works with the fuel I have available.


yeah around here that is all we have to work with a lot of srt4,evos,etc run 92 octane plus water/meth but one guy i know runs e85 in his 50 trim srt4 but he has to drive 1 hour for it but he has 50 gallon drums he fills up with that thing is a beast with that stuff just hoping more gas stations around here start selling it.but i like methnol injection never had issues with it but lots of guys tune there cars to run rich just in case it stops working for some reason.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

vwturbofox said:


> yeah around here that is all we have to work with a lot of srt4,evos,etc run 92 octane plus water/meth but one guy i know runs e85 in his 50 trim srt4 but he has to drive 1 hour for it but he has 50 gallon drums he fills up with that thing is a beast with that stuff just hoping more gas stations around here start selling it.but i like methnol injection never had issues with it but lots of guys tune there cars to run rich just in case it stops working for some reason.


And that is why you need standalone or some other programmable management. Then you can run whatever fuel you want to run whenever you want to do it.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> All the worlds fast VW run some kind of programmable engine management and some sort of alcohol (methanol or ethanol). That is a fact.Most of the fastest street cars also run some form of alcohol as well.


This is a forced induction forum. Not a worlds fastest or break a horsepower record forum. Those guys are the minority and for them there is standalone.

If you really want to go fast why are you playing with an 8V vw? Buy a 5.0 Mustang, turbo it and run 8's.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> This is a forced induction forum. Not a worlds fastest or break a horsepower record forum. Those guys are the minority and for them there is standalone.
> 
> If you really want to go fast why are you playing with an 8V vw? Buy a 5.0 Mustang, turbo it and run 8's.


So we are building turbo cars to go slow? :what:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> So we are building turbo cars to go slow? :what:


There is an entire middle ground between slow and "record breaking". 

A bit of logic. For anything other than a drag car w/ big slicks 300-400whp is more than enough in a relatively light fwd w/ small front tires. People that want more and don't drag race usually:

1) Want an internet fan club.

2) Have addictive personalities. They get bored immediately so they keep upgrading and then sell the car.

There's nothing wrong with using logic to decide that making more power really isn't rational. More $$, more broken parts, etc. for power you cant use .

Also a bit of reality. I'll make ~600whp w/ a chip tuned 12V. When you get to that on an 8V lmk:wave:


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

and nice to see another thread sidetracked.

nice work guys.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> and nice to see another thread sidetracked.
> 
> nice work guys.


High compression requires certain things. Chip tunes dont work very well here but the "experts" are here to tell everyone its the best thing ever.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> High compression requires certain things. Chip tunes dont work very well here but the "experts" are here to tell everyone its the best thing ever.


let it go. you're just as bad as anyone else who has sidetracked this thread.

:beer:


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Also a bit of reality. I'll make ~600whp w/ a chip tuned 12V. When you get to that on an 8V lmk:wave:


Come on now, you know that is a silly comparison...... there are carburated V8's that make more than your EFI chp tune :laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> let it go. you're just as bad as anyone else who has sidetracked this thread.
> 
> :beer:


Im not sidetracking the thread at all. There are certain things you need to run high compression with forced induction and it is exactly what I am talking about. To run high compression with boost you need to either get closer to the knock threshold or move the knock threshold farther up. To get closer to the knock threshold you need to be able to control timing and fuel. The other way is to run higher octane (usually alcohol) and to make proper use of this is to again have control of timing and fuel.

The problem here is all the chip tune leghumpers dont want to hear it.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> To run high compression with boost you need to either get closer to the knock threshold or move the knock threshold farther up. To get closer to the knock threshold you need to be able to control timing and fuel. The other way is to run higher octane (usually alcohol) and to make proper use of this is to again have control of timing and fuel.
> 
> The problem here is all the chip tune leghumpers dont want to hear it.


none of those things you've listed cant be done, nor are limited by being a chip tune. 

:wave:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> none of those things you've listed cant be done, nor are limited by being a chip tune.
> 
> :wave:


Ok im curious how a C2 chip tune is going to get us closer to the knock threshold and more specifically make high compression and turbo work well?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Come on now, you know that is a silly comparison...... there are carburated V8's that make more than your EFI chp tune :laugh:


How so? I'm not trying to break records with power. Apparently the guy w/ the 8V is hence my statement.

BTW, my neighbor has a big carb V8 in his Camaro. Obnoxiously loud, horrible gas mileage, stinks and guess what? He traps the same mph I do.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Sidetracks suck, but as long as you have emotional, agenda based responses to legitimate opinions they're going to happen.

This guy seems to be on a crusade to convince everyone that chip tunes need to be eradicated:laugh: I know I've had to ask him to leave several of my threads.

Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. It's too easy to make power and they run so darn well.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Sidetracks suck, but as long as you have emotional, agenda based responses to legitimate opinions they're going to happen.
> 
> This guy seems to be on a crusade to convince everyone that chip tunes need to be eradicated:laugh: I know I've had to ask him to leave several of my threads.
> 
> Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. It's too easy to make power and they run so darn well.


And again your confused. Tuning for the fuel you do have weather it be with chip tune or standalone is the key. Pushing canned chip tunes that work ok in about half the situations is something totally different. 

Dont you see the difference? It very much applies to this subject and the canned chip tunes are for something else.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

^^beat me to it.

Your missing the point. I do not see an off the shelf tune working for a high compression turbo setup. The fueling might be ok, but there is no way the timing will be correct. Riding the knock sensor is not the way to do it.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> ^^beat me to it.
> 
> Your missing the point. I do not see an off the shelf tune working for a high compression turbo setup. The fueling might be ok, but there is no way the timing will be correct. Riding the knock sensor is not the way to do it.


And to elaborate on this a little more. The only gasoline based fuels that have a high enough octane rating to allow you to bump the knock threshold up are very expensive and not very easy to get. This totally defeats the bolt on and make power everyday purpose. You cannot adapt out of whatever the chip was designed for and unless you are the one doing the tuning your just stuck with whatever is available.This makes it a very poor choice for high compression and boost.

When you want to run on some other fuel with your off the shelf chip tune what do you do? Nothing thats what you do unless your the one doing the tuning. 

With a standalone or other chip tuning system where the user has control you just change your tune to match whatever fuel you have available.

This has a huge impact on every aspect of engine performance that includes high compression with boost.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Ok im curious how a C2 chip tune is going to get us closer to the knock threshold and more specifically make high compression and turbo work well?


the same way stand alone will... it wont.

knock threshold is going to come from better atomization, cleaner flowing heads, better fuel mixture within the chamber, lower AIT, etc, etc. It has nothing to do with chip tunes versus stand alone.

was what "high compression" or the motor ever even described ?

twenty years ago, turbo compression was 7:1, today lots of oem motors run close to 11:1.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> the same way stand alone will... it wont.
> 
> knock threshold is going to come from better atomization, cleaner flowing heads, better fuel mixture within the chamber, lower AIT, etc, etc. It has nothing to do with chip tunes versus stand alone.
> 
> ...


The main factor in knock threshold is the fuel your using. Any system that does not allow the end user to take advantage of this is going to not have the ability to take advantage of more compression and turbo. Therefore it does have everything to do with off the shelf generic chip tunes vs standalone/tunable chip tunes.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> The main factor in knock threshold is the fuel your using. Any system that does not allow the end user to take advantage of this is going to not have the ability to take advantage of more compression and turbo. Therefore it does have everything to do with off the shelf generic chip tunes vs standalone/tunable chip tunes.


so you're saying that the CHIP tunes that United Motorsports sells that switch automatically between e85 and pump gas tunes wont take advantage of this?


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Not tuned well. This is where engineering/if it were a perfect world gets in the way of reality. Is the car reliable? Yes. Does it make more power than I can use legally on the street? Yes. Is it enough power to run to the roll bar limit at the track? Yes. Is the driveability good enough to where I can't tell the difference between OE and my chip other than the power? Yes. That's all you need to know.
> .


Would your car make more power with standalone? yes.. would you get better miles per gallon? yes.. can it be even more reliable?? yes.. with a proper standalone and tune, there is not one thing the stock ecu has over a standalone, except it is street legal

and swapping between e85 and pump gas flash is not the same as mapping a VE table yourself for your fuel, for your motor. again its still an off the shelf chip


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Also a bit of reality. I'll make ~600whp w/ a chip tuned 12V. When you get to that on an 8V lmk:wave:



there are turbo 8v in PR that are making 800hp and they are on standalone.

WAVE


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## vwturbofox (Jul 31, 2010)

ok i think we get the picture chip tunes suck for high comp cause of knock issues and standalone is the sh** . im going standalone once i get a tranny to hold more power


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TBT-Syncro said:


> so you're saying that the CHIP tunes that United Motorsports sells that switch automatically between e85 and pump gas tunes wont take advantage of this?



So your telling us there is a flex fuel sensor that's integrated into the ecm? Crock of **** for an me5 off the shelf tune. Stop spewing crap

Fyi slc, tigninja's 8v makes 385whp on e85 and traps pretty close to what you are. No off the shelf tune is going to do that on e85 or pump gas even with piss injection.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> Would your car make more power with standalone? yes.. would you get better miles per gallon? yes.. can it be even more reliable?? yes.. with a proper standalone and tune, there is not one thing the stock ecu has over a standalone, except it is street legal
> 
> and swapping between e85 and pump gas flash is not the same as mapping a VE table yourself for your fuel, for your motor. again its still an off the shelf chip


For the 100th time

My argument is not that you can't potentially make more power with a standalone E85 tune. It's that 9 out of 10 times the person starting the thread can make as much power as they'll ever need cheaper and in a less time consuming manner by using a chip tune. Hence the reason I asked him his goals for the car.

E85 chip tune would be nice There are many things a stock ecu has over standalone. Mainly 1) The chip is $350 2) It takes 5 min to install 3) You don't have to spend countless hrs tuning it or starting threads like "Has anyone talked to BLAH BLAH I need him to tune my car and it's been a month".

I guess if you have an 8V you need standalone. 12V's make big power on chip tunes.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> For the 100th time
> 
> My argument is not that you can't potentially make more power with a standalone E85 tune. It's that 9 out of 10 times the person starting the thread can make as much power as they'll ever need cheaper and in a less time consuming manner by using a chip tune. Hence the reason I asked him his goals for the car.
> 
> ...


and this thread is about high compression and turbo. off the shelf chip tune wont work very weiil in this situation. :facepalm:


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

you need standlaone to run YOUR 12v at high comp on any fuel.. not just 8v's need it. :screwy:

yes a chip is great for noobs who dont know how to use a real system.. but the chip wont run a high comp motor safely


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Dave926 said:


> So your telling us there is a flex fuel sensor that's integrated into the ecm? Crock of **** for an me5 off the shelf tune. Stop spewing crap


well if you dont believe me, how about you phone up Gabe at Bluewater and ask him about his flex fuel R32 

The last time i looked in to it, everyone was just using the GM flex fuel sensor. It's just a switch, and it's not that difficult to integrated a switch in to any oem ecu (hell, you can even do it on digifant)


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> and this thread is about high compression and turbo. off the shelf chip tune wont work very weiil in this situation. :facepalm:


Yeah but I asked him his goals. Why does he want high compression? How much power etc.? Those are legitimate questions.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> you need standlaone to run YOUR 12v at high comp on any fuel.. not just 8v's need it. :screwy:
> 
> yes a chip is great for noobs who dont know how to use a real system.. but the chip wont run a high comp motor safely


Why does he want a high compression turbo motor? Maybe he has a good reason, but maybe he doesn't. That's why I asked.

2 yrs. later he may be posting "Where's my tuner" when he could have been racing those 2 years after installing a spacer and chip in a weekend. I won't name names but there's more than one person who chose standalone BEFORE I did my obd2 swap and they still haven't posted a timeslip bc the car isn't tuned right. I have about 100 slips in that time.

There is a downside...


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> yes a chip is great for noobs who dont know how to use a real system.. but the chip wont run a high comp motor safely


Or for people with a life that would rather be racing or doing any number of things rather than constantly tinkering with a tune.

There are many reasons people chose not to tune their own car. I wouldn't assume it's because they are "noobs" or "don't know how".


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Yeah but I asked him his goals. Why does he want high compression? How much power etc.? Those are legitimate questions.


And you did this to change the subject to your favorite subject (your stupid chip).


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TBT-Syncro said:


> well if you dont believe me, how about you phone up Gabe at Bluewater and ask him about his flex fuel R32
> 
> The last time i looked in to it, everyone was just using the GM flex fuel sensor. It's just a switch, and it's not that difficult to integrated a switch in to any oem ecu (hell, you can even do it on digifant)



R32=me7. Learn to read.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

I run 10:1 compression on my VRT, on c2 OBD1 #36 software, I have water meth injection but say I can live without it. It keeps the intake cool, makes a little more power keeping the heat soak away. But i don't need it to keep the engine alive. The car made 367whp at 17-18psi with a t3/t4 .82 and ya for the dyno I mixed in some race gas... better safte than sorry. But i have pushed it equally as hard on the street on just 93 octane daily. Its wiseco pistons, advertised 10.5:1, but I run a fiber headgasket. And for overall power, you don't need high compression, but get in my car and then get in a car thats 9:1 and you'll be astonished at how much more out of boost power it makes.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Dave926 said:


> R32=me7. Learn to read.


**** you're a troll.

you guys have your heads so far up your own ass, that you cant even see daylight.

you'll also notice that i said it'll work on digifant. (and pretty much everything in between).


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> **** you're a troll.
> 
> you guys have your heads so far up your own ass, that you cant even see daylight.
> 
> you'll also notice that i said it'll work on digifant. (and pretty much everything in between).


What? You picked out an example (bluewater R32) that completely proves what I have been saying. A tunable system is a must have to run properly and take any real advantage of the compression and boost. This gives you the ability to run other fuels and switch to whatever you want whenever you need to.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

There's a lesson to be learned here.

There are many ways to reach your goals. If people are calling someone else's way "stupid" "retarded" "dumb" "wrong" etc. I would highly recommend not listening to a word they have to say. They have a selfish agenda for you to do it their way which strokes their ego. They do not have your best interest at heart.

Proof is in the pudding. Dyno, timeslip, reliability, etc. If other people are reaching your goals power and or ET wise then you would be wise to consider the route they took.

Trolls kill me. I mean recognize you have a different perspective and move on. How can you tell someone they did it the "wrong" way when the car makes the power and runs the ET that the owner wants. I suspect an inadequacy in some other aspect of their lives:sly:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> What? You picked out an example (bluewater R32) that completely proves what I have been saying. A tunable system is a must have to run properly and take any real advantage of the compression and boost. This gives you the ability to run other fuels and switch to whatever you want whenever you need to.


Stop the campaign for a sec.

Do we know what motor the OP has?

Do we know how much power he wants/needs?

Do we know any budget constraints?

Is E85 readily available to him?

I know what the title of the thread is, but you've been putting the cart before the horse.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Stop the campaign for a sec.
> 
> Do we know what motor the OP has?
> 
> ...


The motor makes no difference. The ability to change the maps to whatever fuel is available and to tune closer to the knock threshold then an off the shelf chip tune is required.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The motor makes no difference. The ability to change the maps to whatever fuel is available and to tune closer to the knock threshold then an off the shelf chip tune is required.


Such an agenda man. It's quite amusing.:laugh:

Required for what? You don't even know how much power he wants.

I mean was standalone "required" for my 2700# Corrado with a pop in 30# chip to run faster than the timeslips you have posted? What was "required" for you to run high 11's was not required for me Starting to make sense?

Note to noobs: Discount everything this guy has to say. Agenda based bias with a closed mind isn't someone you wanna take advice from.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TBT-Syncro said:


> **** you're a troll.
> 
> you guys have your heads so far up your own ass, that you cant even see daylight.
> 
> you'll also notice that i said it'll work on digifant. (and pretty much everything in between).


Keep posting general forum knowledge anyone can look up in 5 minutes:thumbup: I bet you learned a lot standing over your mechanics shoulder.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Such an agenda man. It's quite amusing.:laugh:
> 
> Required for what? You don't even know how much power he wants.
> 
> ...


What? Your involved in every thread here and every time its all about your set up. We dont care about what you did. This thread is about something else. Get lost.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> What? Your involved in every thread here and every time its all about your set up. We dont care about what you did. This thread is about something else. Get lost.


I think you do care what I did. I think your pissed off that I was faster with an off the shelf 30# tune and bolt on 12psi turbo kit, but I could be wrong.

It's not about your agenda either. You have little information other than the thread title yet have rambled on and on. 

You get lost. Swap in a 12V and obd2 60# file and go run 10's= Easy. Then you can enjoy your life with the time saved playing with the tune and your internet crusade against chip tunes.

You don't need to maximize anything to have a fun turbo car. Maybe w an 8V you do IDK.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> I think you do care what I did. I think your pissed off that I was faster with an off the shelf 30# tune and bolt on 12psi turbo kit, but I could be wrong.
> 
> It's not about your agenda either. You have little information other than the thread title yet have rambled on and on.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? I am all for people tuning their cars via chip tuning. My problem is with you trying to make every thread about what you did with your car. You making every thread about your head spacer and C2 chip. Who cares? Not me. Quit hijacking everyones threads to make them about your head spacer and chip.


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## vwturbofox (Jul 31, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> What are you talking about? I am all for people tuning their cars via chip tuning. My problem is with you trying to make every thread about what you did with your car. You making every thread about your head spacer and C2 chip. Who cares? Not me. Quit hijacking everyones threads to make them about your head spacer and chip.


slcturbo talks alot about his car .we are talking about high compression and boost.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> I think you do care what I did. I think your pissed off that I was faster with an off the shelf 30# tune and bolt on 12psi turbo kit, but I could be wrong.
> 
> It's not about your agenda either. You have little information other than the thread title yet have rambled on and on.
> 
> ...


Sure do what everyone else does. 

Still not sure where it was stated his dislike for chip tunes, could you quote that for us? All that was stated was chip tunes are not a good idea for high compression+turbo.

Your tirade about a head spaced vrt that every single person runs on this forum is really sickening as if your **** is better.

Lack of innovation in the VW community is caused by people like you who think "well its good enough." That is why the Honda crowd routinely has cars that run 12's with junkyard parts while we still struggle with 35r's to get into the 12's.

When you make progress with something that doesnt require the swipe of a credit card please post back.

Here are some threads with your useless arrogance and pointless insults

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ed-but-straight.-1300&p=69793178#post69793178

STOP THE PRESSES HE SUGGESTED STANDALONE!!!!!!!!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-timing-is-this-right&p=69722596#post69722596


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Sure do what everyone else does.
> 
> Still not sure where it was stated his dislike for chip tunes, could you quote that for us? All that was stated was chip tunes are not a good idea for high compression+turbo.
> 
> ...


Not looking to make progress my man. Just wondering what the OP's motor, goals, uses of the car were and why he's set on a "high compression" setup. Perhaps other options would let him meet his goals.

Ask yourself why someone else being happy with their setup that's different than yours bothers you. You may not like the answer.

I would never imply or suggest my setup was better than anyone's. As I've stated numerous times, there is no "BETTER" for every case. I don't think my way is the way to go for those looking to make crazy power or set fwd drag racing records. For everyone else, yeah it's at the very least an option that should be considered.

Now go back to searching my posts. You must have quite a life


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

vwturbofox said:


> slcturbo talks alot about his car .we are talking about high compression and boost.


But you don't even know what motor is in his car, how much power he wants, what management he'll be using, what fuel is available to him, etc. etc.

Those questions need to be answered before you can really talk about anything.

I love my car:heart:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> What are you talking about? I am all for people tuning their cars via chip tuning. My problem is with you trying to make every thread about what you did with your car. You making every thread about your head spacer and C2 chip. Who cares? Not me. Quit hijacking everyones threads to make them about your head spacer and chip.


Umm. Not sure how long you've been around here but "my car" (C2 chip, spacer, etc.) is alot of people's cars on here. There are hundreds of them. I'm talking about all of them. It has nothing to with my specific car. It's one of the two main tuning options available for our cars. Chip vs. standalone. Does that make sense to you?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Umm. Not sure how long you've been around here but "my car" (C2 chip, spacer, etc.) is alot of people's cars on here. There are hundreds of them. I'm talking about all of them. It has nothing to with my specific car. It's one of the two main tuning options available for our cars. Chip vs. standalone. Does that make sense to you?


And every time someone wants to do something else other then chip/spacer you go off on them. This thread for example. The OP wants to run high compression and boost and I am telling him what he needs to do to get the most out of that setup and you come in yelling "why not spacer and chip". And then when people start to get down on you about it you start sending me vindictive PMs. You really need to detach yourself a little bit from this subject.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And every time someone wants to do something else other then chip/spacer you go off on them. This thread for example. The OP wants to run high compression and boost and I am telling him what he needs to do to get the most out of that setup and you come in yelling "why not spacer and chip". And then when people start to get down on you about it you start sending me vindictive PMs. You really need to detach yourself a little bit from this subject.



I haven't told the OP to do anything. I asked him for more information on his setup which you should have done before going on and on. I mean you don't even know if he has standalone or E85 available or the budget to acquire them. 

Vindictive PM's. Does public opinion on these forums really matter to you? Come on man.

You have a narrow mind sir. There is more than one way to make power especially if you don't need 800whp. I have a chip sitting next to me that will make 600whp. If that's not what the OP is interested in then fine, but let him tell me. You give your opinion just as I give mine.

Also, you do realize that a "chip" tuner will make you a E85 high compression "chip" tune. So now find a way to tell me that doesn't pertain to the the thread.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And every time someone wants to do something else other then chip/spacer you go off on them. .


Title of the thread isn't standalone E85 tune. That's your suggestion.

I'm quite sure Mr. Atwood etc. would be happy to make tune a car on stock compression and E85 and burn a *CHIP* for a fee. Would that not be a chip tuned high compresion turbo setup.

It's not your thread man. Sorry that someone posted in it that has a different perspective than you.


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## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> There's a lesson to be learned here.
> 
> There are many ways to reach your goals. If people are calling someone else's way "stupid" "retarded" "dumb" "wrong" etc. I would highly recommend not listening to a word they have to say. They have a selfish agenda for you to do it their way which strokes their ego. They do not have your best interest at heart.



this is retarded.. if we didn't call a junk part junk or a wrong setup wrong or retaded then we wouldnt know what works the best and what has been tried before that doesnt work.. with out this how do people search to find what is proven to work the best.


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## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> Umm. Not sure how long you've been around here


hope this wasnt directed toward me.. look at your join date... then look at mine.. i prolly had a big turbo VAG when u were shiitting yellow


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

A2 16v Gli said:


> hope this wasnt directed toward me.. look at your join date... then look at mine.. i prolly had a big turbo VAG when u were shiitting yellow


shiitting yellow aaaaaaahahahahahha!!!!!

------
Chip tuning is for the people who are limited in skill, knowledge or just lazy  If you have the proper equipment chip tuning can be done properly but by the time you buy all the equipment, learn how to operate the software, understand hex, mex, tex and all the other computer language your at the cost of SEM, also the time to you spent understanding beep dot you could have setup your base tune with SEM and been driving already... just sayin.

I don't rely on anyone for anything so SEM is all I use.


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

oh its getting good... I have a chip tune but i dream of standalone....:thumbup: i get your point of different ways to get one goal..

400-hp vr can be done with a spacer and chip tune.. "if thats the goal".. but it could be done with standalone for more money but with more room to grow/tune. I think it going to be better in the long run.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> oh its getting good... I have a chip tune but i dream of standalone....:thumbup: i get your point of different ways to get one goal..
> 
> 400-hp vr can be done with a spacer and chip tune.. "if thats the goal".. but it could be done with standalone for more money but with more room to grow/tune. I think it going to be better in the long run.


A good standalone doesnt really cost that much more. The new haltech sprint 500 comes in right around 900 and is a excellent unit. The lugtronic unit comes with years of experience behind it and is like $1200 or something.

The fueling kit which is just a chip maf and injectors starts out at $875 plus you need a $150 head spacer because the tune is not capable of being tuned for boost at higher compression.

The cost isnt really that much more where it should be a factor.

Based on my experience with the ABA I can tell you without a doubt the standalone with stock compression will make more power then chip and head spacer. And the extra potential with E85 on stock compression is more then worth it.

Here is my breakdown on HP as per my experience with stock compression 2l (VR6 will be time 1.5 aproximatly).This was all done on my aba with valve springs and a 272 cam.

Pump gas. 280whp and 260?wtq (this was at about 14 psi or something) or something like that. We didnt spend alot of time on this one and there was probably more there if we pushed it. This was more of a get you home tune.

E85. 373whp and 325 wtq but we ran out of fuel and could have done even more. We later found out the we had hit the limit in the piston strength of the ABA motor where we ripped the wristpin out of the piston on decel.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

boost_addict said:


> Would your car make more power with standalone? yes.. would you get better miles per gallon? yes.. can it be even more reliable?? yes.. with a proper standalone and tune, there is not one thing the stock ecu has over a standalone, except it is street legal
> 
> and swapping between e85 and pump gas flash is not the same as mapping a VE table yourself for your fuel, for your motor. again its still an off the shelf chip


Bravo! :beer: :thumbup:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> A good standalone doesnt really cost that much more. The new haltech sprint 500 comes in right around 900 and is a excellent unit. The lugtronic unit comes with years of experience behind it and is like $1200 or something.
> 
> The fueling kit which is just a chip maf and injectors starts out at $875 plus you need a $150 head spacer because the tune is not capable of being tuned for boost at higher compression.
> 
> The cost isnt really that much more where it should be a factor.


And a prebuilt V3.57 MS3/3X with harnesses is under $800 . But on the original topic, high static compression + turbo can and will work but it will work best with race gas, E85 or water/meth. In the long run water/meth is probably the cheapest and most effective solution.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Not looking to make progress my man. Just wondering what the OP's motor, goals, uses of the car were and why he's set on a "high compression" setup. Perhaps other options would let him meet his goals.
> 
> Ask yourself why someone else being happy with their setup that's different than yours bothers you. You may not like the answer.
> 
> ...





slcturbo said:


> But you don't even know what motor is in his car, how much power he wants, what management he'll be using, what fuel is available to him, etc. etc.
> 
> Those questions need to be answered before you can really talk about anything.
> 
> I love my car:heart:





slcturbo said:


> Umm. Not sure how long you've been around here but "my car" (C2 chip, spacer, etc.) is alot of people's cars on here. There are hundreds of them. I'm talking about all of them. It has nothing to with my specific car. It's one of the two main tuning options available for our cars. Chip vs. standalone. Does that make sense to you?


You make 3 separate post in 10 min and its not the first time you have done that Stop puffing your post count please. Your contradictions are insane. You told the op in the last thread I posted to run standalone due to a minor issue with the c2 30# file. Now your stating a high compression turbo tune can be done with a chip file.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i always laugh when someone tells Synchro to fuchoff, i hope you do synchro :laugh:

chip tunes are underrated here, tuners make them
you might make the most power/$ but you still haven't learned to post
i understand you hate popularity, i hate you too, but kind words will go further man
you could of _easily _tuned standalone in the time you've been in this thread
i actually like your sobering perspective here, you just suck :beer:​


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

His elitiest attitude is not much better than the honda kid with a 100 shot that thinks he has a super car. You should have seen him in the digi 1 tuning thread awhile back, it was funny.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

A2 16v Gli said:


> hope this wasnt directed toward me.. look at your join date... then look at mine.. i prolly had a big turbo VAG when u were shiitting yellow


Not my first SN, but assume everything I say is directed at you:laugh:

You are the coolest. Do you have a higher post count than me? Do you happen to play D&D?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Wow. What can I say, but that I have wasted way too much time in a thread where everyone has their mind made up and is trying to prove their way the right way. Juvenille to say the least. Chip tunes work extremely well for the majority like it or not.

Lazy:laugh: That's too funny. I own a house, work full time, and I've been finishing my second degree at night over the past 4 years. I leave at 6:30 AM and get home at 10:30PM some nights. How bout you?

Yellow? I owned a 84' GTI in 91'. How bout you?

It's funny. I thought about the 4-5 guys on Vortex that regularly take issue with my opinions. Then it dawned on me what they all have in common. These are their best ET's. 11.8X, 11.9x, 12.0X, 12.8x, 12.8x. Don't let competitiveness turn you into an azzhole. It's shows a deep insecurity


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> oh its getting good... I have a chip tune but i dream of standalone....:thumbup: i get your point of different ways to get one goal..
> 
> 400-hp vr can be done with a spacer and chip tune.. "if thats the goal".. but it could be done with standalone for more money but with more room to grow/tune. I think it going to be better in the long run.


Well said. Ask 10 people their goals and you'll get 10 different answers. That's why there are companies that sell chips and companies that sell standalone systems. 

All someone can ask for is good advice on both and then they can decide for themselves. The attempt to silence one opinion or another is pathetic. Like it or not, both methods have their place and will continue to. :beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Well said. Ask 10 people their goals and you'll get 10 different answers. That's why there are companies that sell chips and companies that sell standalone systems.
> 
> All someone can ask for is good advice on both and then they can decide for themselves. The attempt to silence one opinion or another is pathetic. Like it or not, both methods have their place and will continue to. :beer:


The topic is very clearly stated in the title and you tried to change it to what you wanted to talk about (your stupid chip and head spacer). :thumbdown:


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## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> Not my first SN, but assume everything I say is directed at you:laugh:


Fuuck your post count.. you post the same **** every day..




slcturbo said:


> Wow. What can I say, but that I have wasted way too much time in a thread where everyone has their mind made up and is trying to prove their way the right way. Juvenille to say the least. Chip tunes work extremely well for the majority like it or not.
> 
> Lazy:laugh: That's too funny. I own a house, work full time, and I've been finishing my second degree at night over the past 4 years. I leave at 6:30 AM and get home at 10:30PM some nights. How bout you?
> 
> ...


You Are Wasting Time Here... Seems like everyone here is tired of reading you post as well.. maybe you should take a break.

OK i have a bachelor from temple in finance. I work full time about 60 + hours at Merrill Lynch now owned by bank of America. i also take grad courses at night working toward my MBA... i also have a house, wife, and a four month old baby..

I'm on my 5th big turbo VAG build.. the smallest turbo was a 60trim t3/t4

anything else ?? :laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

A2 16v Gli said:


> Fuuck your post count.. you post the same **** every day..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yea well F*** you


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## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

my comments were to slcturbo.. not you tig ninja.. i dont kknow y the comment.. i agree with you the slcturbo is an idiot


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

A2 16v Gli said:


> my comments were to slcturbo.. not you tig ninja.. i dont kknow y the comment.. i agree with you the slcturbo is an idiot


Yea I know. It was just a joke.


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

back on topic please.....vr corrado and chip tune..... :thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

fastrabbit said:


> back on topic please.....vr corrado and chip tune..... :thumbup:


Whos doing the tune? what fuel?


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

ha hahhah 87 octane....and a off the shelf chip tune for the masses. my car runs 11.4xxx with it so theres no need to do it any other way.:thumbup:


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## joe'sGTI (Jun 12, 2007)

run the highest compression you can with the fuel available.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

joe'sGTI said:


> run the highest compression you can with the fuel available.


Ok so how much compression is that? I can tell you from my experience that on E85 and 10:1 on aba it takes alot of timing.


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

wow this got interesting


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

good old vortex, gotta love it


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## PrimaVW (Dec 22, 2005)

boost_addict said:


> wow this got interesting


tell me about it... i edited my OP because I neglected the thread a bit. Check out my initial goals, it may give this thread some better direction. I have also toyed with the idea of and air/water intercooler since I know where I can get one cheap

The car will be DAILY driven and may make it to the strip a few times...

but overall my main goals it to have a fun little turbo'ed aba to f*ck around town with...

oh and lets leave the bickering out of this thread from here on out... :beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

PrimaVW said:


> Good performance history? Can a forged internals engine handle it? Pros and cons compared to low compression? Recommended PSI? Lay your knowledge on me!
> 
> edit: wow I totally neglected this thread :facepalm:, didn't think it'd make 4 pages...
> 
> ...


I have run up to 20lbs on a stock compression ABA on pump gas. I wouldnt recomend this on a chip tune but we were about 300whp at that point.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I agree that chip tunes are limited for use in a high compression setup. SEM would provide the ability to control timing and fuel to a higher degree. I have thought about the cost factor and here is my .02 cents. I bought the 30# setup for my VRT, now I need to uprgrade to go over 12 psi. If I add the price for the 30# inj, chip and MAF housing plus the price of the 42# I could have got a Lugtronic setup with 630's right of the bat with the ability to self tune. I don't think chip tunes are for lazy people, I am not lazy but run a chip tune. I also agree that they leave much to be desired in terms of daily driving stability.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

PrimaVW said:


> tell me about it... i edited my OP because I neglected the thread a bit. Check out my initial goals, it may give this thread some better direction. I have also toyed with the idea of and air/water intercooler since I know where I can get one cheap
> 
> The car will be DAILY driven and may make it to the strip a few times...
> 
> ...


Around town, daily, fk around with?

What motor? VR? Chip tune will give you all of that. Why do you need high compression? 

Logic>Internet insult/popularity contest.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I agree that chip tunes are limited for use in a high compression setup.


Sure, but after reading his goals I'm still not sure why he wants a high compression setup. Why bother with standalone, an alternate fuel etc. for a "knock around town" car?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Sure, but after reading his goals I'm still not sure why he wants a high compression setup. Why bother with standalone, an alternate fuel etc. for a "knock around town" car?


Because it doesnt cost that much more and the potential is unlimited.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

I don't post often, but when I do, I try not to make it boring.

It's obvious that chip tunes are only as good as the tuner, but I've seen some great chip tunes!

What gets to me are the companies that sell "turbo chips" without ever seeing the car. If you take the time to learn about tuning, you'll see that every setup is different and thus every chip should be. 

Water/meth injection? Pffft... TIGninja handled that answer accordingly. It's just a band-aid for not doing it right the first time. 

I've been a SEM guy for a long time and I'll never regret that investement, but if you have the ability to tune your own chip then what's the difference?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Anything programmable by the end user is a good choice. The honda guys have been using hondata for years and building some of the fastest cars out there with it. Technically thats a chip tune.Buying these off the shelf chip tunes is not going to give you the ability to change maps to take advantage of the wonderful thing E85 is. And for those who dont think E85 makes a difference you are waaaaay wrong. It is especially good for the bathtub combustion chamber VW uses for the 2v heads.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

well everybody knows how many degrees of timing you'd pull for a 3 minute wot highway pull over & over & low comp conservative timing would make it home, especially if you can just turn up the wg

i feel sorry for the people who haven't gotten a chance to try e85, that's pretty much the only people who don't plan on putting it in their car from now on opcorn:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I like control, the chip was there and I got it. I would like the ability to maybe see someones SEM setup and look at the program. If I went SEM I would be tuning it myself, not driving, waiting for someone else to tune it. I also agree that VW is very far behind in tuning vs Honda. I am at the turning point with my setup that I need to decide what route is going to be with me for the long haul. PNP ease or a one time investment. SEM is much safer vs chip tunes because of things like boost/lean cut ability to adapt to your setup, not make your setup adapt to the tuning solution. Besides the BS in this thread, I learned a bit about engine management.:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I like control, the chip was there and I got it. I would like the ability to maybe see someones SEM setup and look at the program. If I went SEM I would be tuning it myself, not driving, waiting for someone else to tune it. I also agree that VW is very far behind in tuning vs Honda. I am at the turning point with my setup that I need to decide what route is going to be with me for the long haul. PNP ease or a one time investment. SEM is much safer vs chip tunes because of things like boost/lean cut ability to adapt to your setup, not make your setup adapt to the tuning solution. Besides the BS in this thread, I learned a bit about engine management.:thumbup:


The new haltech stuff is free to download.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

BLSport is using a 42# off the shelf tune on a 10:1 compression setup. Just showing you what's out there.

"Can definitely be done; I've been doing so for several years now... I'm not advocating that everyone attempt it, but it can be done with careful monitoring, and fine-tuning of your water/meth injection system, even with an off-the-shelf chip tune; I'm using C2's 42-lb tune with stock 10:1 static compression (although somewhat reduced dynamic compression due to Techtonics 264/260 cams), and non-intercooled (at least not in the traditional sense).

A few years back I upped the ante in the fuel octane department to 100, just for an improved margin of safety, but I wasn't having any issues with straight 93 octane pump fuel prior to that.

I've been experimenting with a combination of pre/post-turbo water/meth injection this past season, with improved success over post-turbo injection alone; pre-turbo being of particular interest when approaching the efficiency limits of the compressor.

For me, it's just fun to think and experiment "outside of the box", so to speak; I mean, what's the worst that could happen? If things eventually go south, I'll just tear it all apart and build bigger and better. It's a real kick to succeed where the majority insists it's not possible. "


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I like control, the chip was there and I got it. I would like the ability to maybe see someones SEM setup and look at the program. If I went SEM I would be tuning it myself, not driving, waiting for someone else to tune it. I also agree that VW is very far behind in tuning vs Honda. I am at the turning point with my setup that I need to decide what route is going to be with me for the long haul. PNP ease or a one time investment. SEM is much safer vs chip tunes because of things like boost/lean cut ability to adapt to your setup, not make your setup adapt to the tuning solution. Besides the BS in this thread, I learned a bit about engine management.:thumbup:


The driving factor should be power IMO. It's easy to get caught up in the whole "I gotta make more because everyone else is" especially in this forum. 

At the end of the day you are spending more $$ and time(a valuable resource) to make more power. Answering these questions may help.

1) Are you putting a roll bar in the car?

2) Do you do highway pulls that come close to or more than double the speed limit?

I answered no and no which means I don't need more power. Your answers may be different.

Does standalone have knock control?

Will it pass an obd2 emissions test ie. set readiness monitors?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

You can never have to much beer or to much power.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> For me, it's just fun to think and experiment "outside of the box", so to speak; *I mean, what's the worst that could happen? If things eventually go south, I'll just tear it all apart and build bigger and better*. It's a real kick to succeed where the majority insists it's not possible. "


That's a waste of $$ and time...



slcturbo said:


> The driving factor should be power IMO. It's easy to get caught up in the whole "I gotta make more because everyone else is" especially in this forum.
> 
> *At the end of the day you are spending more $$ and time(a valuable resource)* to make more power.


Funny...



slcturbo said:


> Answering these questions may help.
> 
> 1) Are you putting a roll bar in the car?
> *Stupid question, it has nothing to do with this thread and a roll bar will cause more harm without a helmet so unless he drives with a helmet on all the time then...:facepalm:*
> ...


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

> 1) Are you putting a roll bar in the car?


Yes, I will put a cage in my car when the track I go to tells me I can't run anymore.


> BLSport is using a 42# off the shelf tune on a 10:1 compression setup. Just showing you what's out there.


I have also seen people run stock compression on the 42# setup with good results.


> Will it pass an obd2 emissions test ie. set readiness monitors?


I don't care about emissions and stock knock sensors are a joke, I want to control timing so I can take advantage of higher octane.


> The driving factor should be power IMO. It's easy to get caught up in the whole "I gotta make more because everyone else is" especially in this forum.


You of all people should know that I am not power hungry. I know that uping the power creates traction loss and broken parts. I have done well with my gutted rust bucket POS GTI with its Kinetics kit, home built trans and used slicks. You are one of the reasons I got out there to see what my POS could do. Just look at my times, I am using my power and want to keep using it, not spin it away. I just can't justify dropping the cash on a setup that will not see me past 400. SEM wiil take me to the moon if thats what my pockets can afford.


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## 1.8TRabbit (Nov 15, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Answer this question. Who has a higher combined net income? C2, United, VF or the top 3 standalone tuners that tune VW/Audi's. Answer. It aint even close. People want chip tunes b/c it get's them to their goal in the shortest time with the least cost.


If you were to venture outside of the VW tuning world and investigate what amount of other tuners use standalones vs chips. You might realize it seems that VW/Audi tuners/enthusiasts are #1 in chips vs other car enthusiast tuners. Majority of other tuners are using standalones. 

When deciding upon Chips vs Standalones, etc. It basically boils down to "what are your goals." If you dont want to spend a good amount of money, but want to have a decent power gain, then the chip is of course the best. If you want to spend a little more money, but have a more customized and efficient tune with unlimited potential for the specific setup you are running, then the standalone is your choice. 



BTW, I used a Haltech E8 on my Rabbit and loved it. Your perception that standalones are only used for people who are trying to win "internet wars" and popularity contests is incorrect, invalid, and just ignorant. While chips may be a little cheaper compared to the majority of standalones, you dont always have to be going for the *Gold* when using a standalone. My car was a daily driven 84 Rabbit. :beer::thumbup:

*Edit: Can we end this debate and thread now mods? Thanks.. :what:*


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

Keep in mind, slcturbo, SEM's have gone down quite a bit in price. :thumbup:

These new PnP systems had me skeptical at first, but after tuning a couple setups, I'm jealous of the simplicity behind them. A lot of work has gone into making these new setups user friendly, affordable, and comparably functional to higher priced units.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

1.8TRabbit said:


> If you were to venture outside of the VW tuning world and investigate what amount of other tuners use standalones vs chips. You might realize it seems that VW/Audi tuners/enthusiasts are #1 in chips vs other car enthusiast tuners. Majority of other tuners are using standalones.


It really depends on the type of ECU's come from the factory, that is the biggest difference evolving from most ppls older VW's..... now a days most tuners are reflashing ECU's.... You want your wrx/sti or evo tuned its reflashed, custom tuned for your application...even multiple maps on a flick of a switch have been implemented with OEM ecu's..... recently tuners are venturing into getting more from less and not using SEM if they don't have too. Years ago many ppl didn't know how manipulate OEM ecu's (not like today any how), now we are resizing MAF's, changing to speed density, etc etc.... and pushing power that tuners used with SEM.... reason to use SEM over reflashing was simply the fact they know how to tune the system = experience

If every tuner knew how to utilize the OEM system, write more/new code... there would be 'almost' no need for SEM in most applications in my opinion.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

They are not writing code. They are manipulating it with a GUI. A custom tune is a tune for the conditions (like high compression and boost for instance). The hardware has very little to do with it. Its the ability to change what the tune is doing to match the circumstance like better fuel or other things like this. A reflash for a stock ecu is very much the same as standalone in most cases (except where the hardware is not capable).

A C2 chip tune is not a custom tune. It is very similar to the stock tune where if you vary the conditions enough (like add boost) it will very easily fall out of its usable range if more boost then the file was set to run is used.It also does not have the timing advance control to properly take advantage of better fuel so unless your leaning on the knock sensor you will never see any real gains with race gas on this tune.

So for high compression and boost here are your options (again).

1. Learn how to remap your stock ecu (not as hard as everyone thinks)
2. let someone else do it for you (surprisingly not many people doing it)
3. run a MK4 ecu thats programable with maestro
4. get standalone.
5 punch yourself in the balls (hard! dont be a wuss!).


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Good info guys, thanks.:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

As far as tunes goes I would bet the lugtronic set up could come with a decent start up tune from the lugtronic factory


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> That's a waste of $$ and time...


The key word in my worst case scenario statement was "If" (which I'm not anticipating anytime in the foreseeable future), and if you ask my wife, everything we do to our cars is a waste of $$ and time... :beer::laugh:


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## 1.8TRabbit (Nov 15, 2004)

BLSport said:


> and if you ask women, everything men do to their cars and wives are a waste of $$ and time... :beer::laugh:


fixed.... :wave:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Keep the insults comin'. It's funny when you don't have to say anything. Some people will make fools of themselves.

Someone with some sense "Interesting. I don't see it that way, but to each his own"

The village idiot "Your stupid b/c you don't agree with me"- Don't listen to this guy. The reason for 90% of the world's problems now is this attitude. Self centered, ignorant, juvenille, it's all about me


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Keep the insults comin'. It's funny when you don't have to say anything. Some people will make fools of themselves.
> 
> Someone with some sense "Interesting. I don't see it that way, but to each his own"
> 
> The village idiot "Your stupid b/c you don't agree with me"- Don't listen to this guy. The reason for 90% of the world's problems now is this attitude. Self centered, ignorant, juvenille, it's all about me


Your the one who came into this thread and told everyone they should do it just like you. You are the village idiot.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Your the one who came into this thread and told everyone they should do it just like you. You are the village idiot.


Wrong. I asked for more information and suggested he consider a chip setup if it would meet his power goals. 

Question. Do you live on here? It seems like no matter how long it takes for me to post a reply you reply within 5 min. I mean do you have a family, friends, girlfriend? I'm starting to get the whole standalone obsession. Maybe you're bored:laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Yes, I will put a cage in my car when the track I go to tells me I can't run anymore.
> 
> I have also seen people run stock compression on the 42# setup with good results.
> 
> ...


Good stuff and good luck on whatever you end up doing. Is your car obd2? The 60# file will get you 600whp. I never had it so can't speak to the driveability.

If this ever became a "race car" with bar/cage I would go 60# chip just to see how fast I could go. Only after that would I go standalone. 

I'm just a logical guy. The only place you can use over 400whp in a fwd w/ little tires legally is a dragstrip. That's the reason I let the 11.50 be my stopping point. I'm not going to make more power to get chased out of the track and/or start shredding 3rd/4th gear. 

Race car = Standalone all day. Just funny how alot of the guys preaching it don't have race car timeslips.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Good stuff and good luck on whatever you end up doing. Is your car obd2? The 60# file will get you 600whp. I never had it so can't speak to the driveability.
> 
> If this ever became a "race car" with bar/cage I would go 60# chip just to see how fast I could go. Only after that would I go standalone.
> 
> ...


What is wrong with you? :laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> What is wrong with you? :laugh:



Hate on:laugh: You're in the right ET bracket 11.8-12.8. Close enough to be jealous, but not too far away to think you don't have a chance. You'll get there someday


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Holy **** you guys are still at it.. worse than a married couple :laugh: You should kiss and make up :laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Holy **** you guys are still at it.. worse than a married couple :laugh: You should kiss and make up :laugh:


 :laugh:

I hate to do this stuff, but gotta put some people in their place.

My opinion- both "methods" have their place depending on goals etc.

His opinion- Chip tunes are wrong, bad, for stupid people, etc. Dude is on a crusade against chip tunes. Isn't every OE car essentially a "chip" tune? Yes 

Probably so hell bent on standalone because you need everything to wring power out of a 8V.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I hate to do this stuff, but gotta put some people in their place.
> 
> ...


Yes your right.LOL but my 8v is making right about the same power your making.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Holy **** you guys are still at it.. worse than a married couple :laugh: You should kiss and make up :laugh:


Im just having some fun


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Yes your right.LOL but my 8v is making right about the same power your making.


Nah. 373/325? I'll dyno soon, but probably making 25-50whp and 75-100wtq more.

Either way your statement is exactly my point. What one motor needs to reach ~400whp is not what another motor needs.

Think he's making 577whp with a 2:1 91 octane to 100 octane mix. Not a bad option for some.:thumbup:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4237580-I-found-the-cure-for-the-clap!!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Nah. 373/325? I'll dyno soon, but probably making 25-50whp and 75-100wtq more.
> 
> Either way your statement is exactly my point. What one motor needs to reach ~400whp is not what another motor needs.
> 
> ...


Well im going to be about 500whp and in the 30-35psi range.This is ofcourse on E85 because we easily get it here. Then if I need regular gasoline I am limited to a little over 300whp on pump and I have to switch maps.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I would never spend the cash on a 60# setup when a PNP Lugtronic can be had for around the same price. In my humble experiences MAP > MAF.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Nah. 373/325? I'll dyno soon, but probably making 25-50whp and 75-100wtq more.
> 
> Either way your statement is exactly my point. What one motor needs to reach ~400whp is not what another motor needs.
> 
> ...


How bout 754awhp/660 without any race gas? 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...wered-Audi-S4-Project-pics-results-and-videos
I think they made mid 800s afterwards

PS: What are the quickest times on C2/Chip software? I don't think anyone's even gotten into the 10s with it. 
These dyno charts are pretty useless, similar to how people are making 500+ on 42# when I always see the injectors maxed out in the low 400whp range


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I would never spend the cash on a 60# setup when a PNP Lugtronic can be had for around the same price. In my humble experiences MAP > MAF.


In most cases yes MAP>MAF. The MAF does compensate for elevation/temp changes though, although I've never had any noticeable problems with MAP setups


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> PS: What are the quickest times on C2/Chip software? I don't think anyone's even gotten into the 10s with it.
> These dyno charts are pretty useless, similar to how people are making 500+ on 42# when I always see the injectors maxed out in the low 400whp range


What charts are useless? 577 was on a 630cc inj. tune not 42#. Another guy in that thread made 560 something I believe.

Quickest on a chip? Hmm. not sure. I know many are mid-low 11's w/ the 42# stuff in pretty heavy cars. Guy was running 11.2's at Pinks on a 42# setup.

I don't think any of the 60# guys have tried. I would run 10's with it I'm sure. 

The reference to 10's/700-800whp, I mean it always ends up here. If those are your goals then the $$, time, and effort of standalone is warranted. There is no argument there nor should there be. What % of FI cars on this forum fall into that category? Most of these guys are looking to have some fun on the street, not make 800whp or put a full cage in a street car to run over 135mph.

I would break 135mph w/ a 60# setup. I'm only 7mph away now. So I mean unless you're doing a full cage, safety stuff for 135mph +, etc. VR guys can get their with a chip or standalone.

I never got why this always turns into a pissing contest. If your goals are more power than a chip will make then don't run a chip. If not, then consider it. Pretty simple stuff.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> In most cases yes MAP>MAF. The MAF does compensate for elevation/temp changes though, although I've never had any noticeable problems with MAP setups


Again it depends:laugh:

Why do OE's run MAF's? Do MAP's compensate for "flow mods". Say I change my cam, port a head, bigger exhaust. Do you need a retune?

MAF's are not ideal for really big power, but they are >MAP for everything else. Elevation, temp, flow mods etc. All compensated for.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I can't really complain about my chip, don't know that many that have gone 11.80's or better on a 30# setup other than slcturbo and myself, though I am sure many have. Apples and oranges I guess. I can't talk ish about the maf setup either it works really well, but not perfect. I have much to learn and have many to thank for there info. I just wish that threads like this one would be more productive.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> They are not writing code. They are manipulating it with a GUI. A custom tune is a tune for the conditions (like high compression and boost for instance). The hardware has very little to do with it. Its the ability to change what the tune is doing to match the circumstance like better fuel or other things like this. A reflash for a stock ecu is very much the same as standalone in most cases (except where the hardware is not capable).


With respect to my evo, I take the OEM .set file and add lines of code which someone else wrote so I can have more tables to manipulate in the GUI.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> With respect to my evo, I take the OEM .set file and add lines of code which someone else wrote so I can have more tables to manipulate in the GUI.


Sweet. Not many people do anything like that and just rely on GUI.Alot of guys use a patch where they start out with a modified file and change a few things in the GUI to apply to that file. I do that when I tune VW files.


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