# C2 630cc file dyno, WTF??



## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

Here it is. Only did 2 runs, as we couldn't adjust anything to make it better.
First run at 12psi (daily mode), second run went to 20-21psi
Car is a weekend driver
Specs:
Turbonetics 60-1 turbo, stage 5 exhaust wheel 
Kinetic exhaust manifold
3" DP with wastegate re-route
Stock cat and TT 2.5 stainless exhaust
630cc Siemans injectors
OBD2 conversion
MSD coils with NGK BKRE7E gapped at .035
FMIC with Racecraft SRI and fuel rail
stock 3bar FPR
Devils own water/meth (although I don't think it was working)
stock block and head with ARP head bolts
8.5:1 compression (head spacer)
Walbro 255LPH intank pump and Bosch inline pump
Car was properly warmed up and there are no boost leaks
Vacuum is 18 at idle
Can _ANYONE_ shed some light on this?
Obviously, I am very disappointed with these numbers.
Car runs ok on the street, although it does run rich under acceleration, not only WOT.
I used to have the 42# chip in and it ran extremely rich, but got better numbers with the stock
Kinetic turbo.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
TIA 
pic of car at dyno









_Modified by rycou34 at 12:18 PM 1-12-2009_


_Modified by rycou34 at 2:15 PM 1-12-2009_


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

What kind of fuel pump do you have installed?


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

Just added that info
Walbro intank and Bosch inline


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## broke_rado (Nov 5, 2008)

your problem is your running a chip tune. standalone ftw


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_ 
Stock cat and TT 2.5 stainless exhaust

that is one of the issues right there. 
also, do you have any codes?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: (broke_rado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *broke_rado* »_your problem is your running a chip tune. standalone ftw









AFRs don't look too bad, it should be making over [email protected] though. Is the boost staying flat? Were you logging the timing? If I had to guess I'd say spark is either getting blown out or it's pulling a lot of timing.
The stock cat is hurting power big time, it may even be clogged...


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (sp_golf)*

You basically need to FLOW more air to make more power. You have plenty of fuel...that is not the issue. I would say you have multiple restrictions that are preventing flow. I.E. cat/exhaust/etc
PS: do you have a larger chart.....I can't read anything








C2


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

Bump for Rycou http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (C2Motorsports)*

Cat will be coming out soon.

_Quote, originally posted by *C2Motorsports* »_You basically need to FLOW more air to make more power. You have plenty of fuel...that is not the issue. I would say you have multiple restrictions that are preventing flow. I.E. cat/exhaust/etc
PS: do you have a larger chart.....I can't read anything








C2

re-posted a larger scan
I was looking to make 400hp on this setup as I made 348 with the stock Kinetic turbo and 42# software. Same exhaust and cat.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

are you sure you don't have any other issues, the car going to 10.x afr is super rich and will rob all kinds of power, the CAT shouldn't effect it at all unless it's clogged http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (18T_BT)*

I do not know of any other issues. car runs fine, just extremely rich.
Changing the cat is one of the things on my list to do, but I can't see that as my problem.
Have to get VAG-COM hooked up to it to see if there are any problems/codes.


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

what FPR are you running? do you have another one you can test? 
something is not lining up here.


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (Noobercorn)*

I am running a 3bar. I do have one off my GTI that I will try
Thanks


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

vithout vag com, you are shooting in the dark, but if you are running so rich, it is either a sensor, or in the fuel delivery system (like an injector sticking, etc.)


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (Noobercorn)*

Okay now that I can actually see the dyno sheet, my guess is clogged cat. It's making boost way too late. Try open DP


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (sp_golf)*

Hope you get it all sorted out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm looking at upgrading when they offer the high flow performance sensor.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (BlownGinster)*

18 inches of vacuum is on the low side


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## NoMoreHonduh (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (Daskoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daskoupe* »_18 inches of vacuum is on the low side

really? I only see ~13ish fully warmed up. what should it be at?


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## 84_GLI_coupe (Apr 3, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (NoMoreHonduh)*

That spark plug gap is pretty big.


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## NoMoreHonduh (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (84_GLI_coupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *84_GLI_coupe* »_That spark plug gap is pretty big.

he's running MSD's. from what I've seen most people with MSD's run them at .035. My guess is clogged cat as well.


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (BlownGinster)*










_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_Hope you get it all sorted out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm looking at upgrading when they offer the high flow performance sensor.

We are installing the Beta version in two cars presently for testing.....once all the maps are confirmed, it will be available publicly.
C2


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (C2Motorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *C2Motorsports* »_









We are installing the Beta version in two cars presently for testing.....once all the maps are confirmed, it will be available publicly.
C2


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (C2Motorsports)*

Some good ideas here.
Some thoughts:
I do have MSD coils, but will be trying a gap of .028, see if that helps
I know it won't help fueling, but...
The cat is being switched out for a straight pipe very soon.
Will be switching 3bar fpr from my GTI
From what I have been told and read, 18 in of vacuum is right.
I am going to be on the safe side and pressure test the boost piping.
Any other help is appreciated.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by rycou34 at 10:19 PM 1-12-2009_


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

this is way out there, but since we are brainstorming what WG (i assume tial 38mm) spring you running/boost controller? Where is vacuum source to WG taken from? Now that i think about it though, your spool could be affected by the richness causing EGT's to stay low.. I would def. addressthe exhaust as it is def. a huge restriction
gl and beautiful car!










_Modified by crzygreek at 12:03 AM 1-13-2009_


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (crzygreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crzygreek* »_this is way out there, but since we are brainstorming what WG (i assume tial 38mm) spring you running/boost controller? Where is vacuum source to WG taken from? Now that i think about it though, your spool could be affected by the richness causing EGT's to stay low.. I would def. addressthe exhaust as it is def. a huge restriction
gl and beautiful car!









_Modified by crzygreek at 12:03 AM 1-13-2009_

It is a Tial 38mm WG with a 10# spring.
The cat will be changed out, hopefully this weekend.
The EGT's are relatively low 1250 under hard acceleration for prolonged periods.
Between 850 and 1050 just cruising
I do have an AEM wideband. readings show that at 3K (not in boost) and accelerating it is at 12.5 already. hits 11's while in boost and I have seen high 10's also.


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## BlakVRBeast (Dec 17, 2006)

something is def not right , the #'s dont seems at all ... i made 345 wHP @ 14psi on a 12V vr6 with a c2 36# program


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## 92gtikid (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (BlakVRBeast)*

The vaccum is pretty normal... my VRT is a little higher than that warmed right around 22-23.
Yeah something is messed up with that. 
def on the real low side.. you should be making way more power. 
Could be a flow issue like others were saying maybe.
Try and open dp...


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_
It is a Tial 38mm WG with a 10# spring.


Obviously it is not the problem, however just to avoid problems in the future i would probably put a bigger spring in the WG. From what i have always been told the rule of thumb is you shouldn't exceed double the spring you have in your wastegate. It will not hold boost up top very well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by 92g60gti at 5:05 PM 1-13-2009_


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

Do a cylinder leak down test and check for any blow by from the rings, and check for intake and exhaust valve leakage as well. definitely check for intercooler leakage, this is hard to determine from just driving sometimes. The lag could be caused by a leaking coupler/pipe. Those numbers don't suggest a super rich issue, however a tad leaner would net better numbers.
I'd be looking at something mechanically wrong with the combustion chamber or electronically with the software. Critical info would also be intake temps, as these would be telling us if there was an leak. The turbo would be spinning much faster to create the same amount of pressure which in turn would cause a higher temperature charge.
It's also very possible it's a defective dyno. Did you notice anyone else laying down numbers that day?
_Modified by Weiss at 12:00 AM 1-14-2009_


_Modified by Weiss at 12:01 AM 1-14-2009_


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_ 
Car runs ok on the street, although it does run rich under acceleration, not only WOT.
I used to have the 42# chip in and it RAN EXTREMELY RICH , but got better numbers with the stock
Kinetic turbo.


may be another issue but the fact it was running rich for some time really leads me to think its a cat issue


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## 92gtikid (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_
Obviously it is not the problem, however just to avoid problems in the future i would probably put a bigger spring in the WG. From what i have always been told the rule of thumb is you shouldn't exceed double the spring you have in your wastegate. It will not hold boost up top very well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Modified by 92g60gti at 5:05 PM 1-13-2009_

x2.
Def not that problem.
I tried running around 18lbs when I first got my GTI when i first got it broken in with a 10lb spring and It broke up pretty bad up top.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_








AFRs don't look too bad, it should be making over [email protected] though. Is the boost staying flat? Were you logging the timing? If I had to guess I'd say spark is either getting blown out or it's pulling a lot of timing.
The stock cat is hurting power big time, it may even be clogged...

400 hp with a 16v head....
and i agree the spark plug gap is to large.. and the cat needs to go and the exhaust needs to gro larger like 3 inch...
and to the person that posted the MSD comment...you are stupid....the only reason to use a msd coil is they are cheeper than the stock ones...
all MSD parts suck donkey nuts....gap the plugs down to 24-25
that coil adds nothing to the mix..other than the fact it's not cracked


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
400 hp with a 16v head....
and i agree the spark plug gap is to large.. and the cat needs to go and the exhaust needs to gro larger like 3 inch...
and to the person that posted the MSD comment...you are stupid....the only reason to use a msd coil is they are cheeper than the stock ones...
all MSD parts suck donkey nuts....gap the plugs down to 24-25
that coil adds nothing to the mix..other than the fact it's not cracked


I've seen plenty of VR6s make over 400whp @ 20psi. Back in the summer there was a VR6 Corrado that made [email protected] on a hot muggy day(35*C and stupid high humidity). Even my buddy's C2 42# setup made [email protected]


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (Noobercorn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noobercorn* »_
that is one of the issues right there. 
also, do you have any codes? 

i'm running the TT 2.5 exhaust on the 42# build and put down over 300 easy. unless of course the cat is totally plugged you should be able to do better than that.
You're running super-rich, you might be going into limp/save mode where it dumps tons of fuel and pulls timing? Not sure on that build what's in there.
-m


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (maxslug)*

Changed a couple of things today:
Made a better ground for the ecu and switched to an adjustable FPR
Adjusted it to 40psi
still running rich, saw 10.4 on the test drive.
Will have the test pipe in this weekend, as well as test the IC plumbing for leaks.






















On a good note, I believe I got the water/meth working properly


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_
On a good note, I believe I got the water/meth working properly









I would see what some other people say, but personally i would get the car running right without the water/meth first. You should be able to run 20-22psi all day long on that car without water/meth. Take that out of the equation and get the car running properly. Then i would work on the water/meth after this other problem has been sorted out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_
I've seen plenty of VR6s make over 400whp @ 20psi. Back in the summer there was a VR6 Corrado that made [email protected] on a hot muggy day(35*C and stupid high humidity). Even my buddy's C2 42# setup made [email protected]

6 pistons and 4 pistons are 2 totaly diffent worlds..and one has nothing to do with the other


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
6 pistons and 4 pistons are 2 totaly diffent worlds..and one has nothing to do with the other

WTF are you talking about? I'm comparing 12v VR6s to 12v VR6s
I never even mentioned 16vs or 4cyls
Your reading comprehension is failing u.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
and to the person that posted the MSD comment...you are stupid....the only reason to use a msd coil is they are cheeper than the stock ones...
all MSD parts suck donkey nuts....gap the plugs down to 24-25
that coil adds nothing to the mix..other than the fact it's not cracked


no need to post insults.
there have been lots of people on here, who have gotten better spark with the MSD packs as compared to the OEM.


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## instg8r (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*

the who guy made the 6 pistons to 4 pistons comparison.....you are stupid......
that is all


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: (instg8r)*


_Quote, originally posted by *instg8r* »_the who guy made the 6 pistons to 4 pistons comparison.....you are stupid......
that is all

...confused is more than likely


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_
I would see what some other people say, but personally i would get the car running right without the water/meth first. You should be able to run 20-22psi all day long on that car without water/meth. Take that out of the equation and get the car running properly. Then i would work on the water/meth after this other problem has been sorted out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

x2
...and to the OP, do yourself a HUGE favor by freeing up that exhaust system at your earliest convenience. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
400 hp with a 16v head....
and i agree the spark plug gap is to large.. and the cat needs to go and the exhaust needs to gro larger like 3 inch...
and to the person that posted the MSD comment...you are stupid....the only reason to use a msd coil is they are cheeper than the stock ones...
all MSD parts suck donkey nuts....gap the plugs down to 24-25
that coil adds nothing to the mix..other than the fact it's not cracked


How does that make him stupid? The reason to use these is for a longer more powerful and consistent spark, the capacitive discharge coils offer intense power through the range by firing multiple sparks below 3,000RPM, over that they amplify the voltage and send over 45,000V through the secondary side. THAT is the reason to use MSD coil packs. You can go with a bigger gap because there is more voltage to jump the gap within high cylinder pressures.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_
I was looking to make 400hp on this setup as I made 348 with the stock Kinetic turbo and 42# software. Same exhaust and cat.


To all of the people who are trying to make suggestions about flow, cat being the problem etc, please read the above..
Obviously something is definitely way out.
Exactly what changed from the old to the new setup? besides the new file?
OBD1-> OBD II
Turbo (From what?)
etc.




_Modified by sdezego at 10:44 PM 1-14-2009_


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## hubbell (Oct 30, 2001)

*Re: (sdezego)*

also, 40 psi? 3 bar isnt that supposed to be more like 14.5 x3 so.....43.5, youre still a bit low....atleast start at the correct psi and then adjust for fine tuning later on?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (hubbell)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hubbell* »_also, 40 psi? 3 bar isnt that supposed to be more like 14.5 x3 so.....43.5, youre still a bit low....atleast start at the correct psi and then adjust for fine tuning later on?

close, but your formula is wrong
its actually 1 atmosphere + 2 bar


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_
To all of the people who are trying to make suggestions about flow, cat being the problem etc, please read the above..
Obviously something is definitely way out.
Exactly what changed from the old to the new setup? besides the new file?
OBD1-> OBD II
Turbo (From what?)
etc.
_Modified by sdezego at 10:44 PM 1-14-2009_

correct me if wrong but last time I checked carbon buildup can and will clog a cat.The OP stated that he ran the car rich for some time......I highly suspect the cat is suffering buildup issues







the car felt slower over time to the OP..........so he decided to get a bigger turbo,bigger turbo still felt slow so he took it to the dyno.The dyno results sucked,hence this thread








Now do I think there may be another problem,YES but if the cats plugged he's going to play hell finding it.


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## instg8r (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (not SoQuick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *not SoQuick* »_
correct me if wrong but last time I checked carbon buildup can and will clog a cat.The OP stated that he ran the car rich for some time......I highly suspect the cat is suffering buildup issues







the car felt slower over time to the OP..........so he decided to get a bigger turbo,bigger turbo still felt slow so he took it to the dyno.The dyno results sucked,hence this thread








Now do I think there may be another problem,YES but if the cats plugged he's going to play hell finding it.

i agree, i would start eliminating things that could be causing the problem, it also could be a combination of things......
keep us posted


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## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (instg8r)*

in regards to the MSD comments. I ran MSDs on my #42 set up (97 GLX, t3/t4 from the stg 1 kinetic kit released in 06) for about 7k miles gapped at .045 with NO problems. car ran lean due to low fuel pressure, but still ran VERY well @ 16psi. The MSD coils @ .045 never had a problem and actually ran MUCH smoother then stock BRAND NEW coil with plugs @ .022
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
close, but your formula is wrong
its actually 1 atmosphere + 2 bar









1 Atmosphere 
=
1.01325 bar
1 Atmosphere
=
14.69595 PSI
1 Bar
=
14.50377 PSI
therefore
3bar (laman) = 1 atmosphere + 2 bar 
Stock FPR= 43.7035 psi
**DISCLAIMER: I have only had 1 cup of coffee, so my calculations may be affected by the caffeine factor**


_Modified by C2Motorsports at 8:43 AM 1-15-2009_


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (not SoQuick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *not SoQuick* »_
...the car felt slower over time to the OP............


sry, I failed at reading that part


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_
To all of the people who are trying to make suggestions about flow, cat being the problem etc, please read the above..
Obviously something is definitely way out.
Exactly what changed from the old to the new setup? besides the new file?
OBD1-> OBD II
Turbo (From what?)
etc.
_Modified by sdezego at 10:44 PM 1-14-2009_

Thanks again for the all the suggestions guys, but some things that I believe I have already mentioned:
Same setup except for turbo ( came from a stock Kinetics turbo to the 60-1)
software and injectors, Bosch inline pump, and 3" DP from the 2.5"

_Quote, originally posted by *hubbell* »_also, 40 psi? 3 bar isnt that supposed to be more like 14.5 x3 so.....43.5, youre still a bit low....atleast start at the correct psi and then adjust for fine tuning later on?

40 psi is what I adjusted the fuel pressure _after_ I installed the adjustable FPR.
I know how it drives with 3bar, I was trying to reduce the pressure to see if that helps any as mentioned by Jeff from C2

_Quote, originally posted by *not SoQuick* »_
correct me if wrong but last time I checked carbon buildup can and will clog a cat.The OP stated that he ran the car rich for some time......I highly suspect the cat is suffering buildup issues







the car felt slower over time to the OP..........so he decided to get a bigger turbo,bigger turbo still felt slow so he took it to the dyno.The dyno results sucked,hence this thread








Now do I think there may be another problem,YES but if the cats plugged he's going to play hell finding it.

This may have happened, and the cat will be replaced on Sat. with a test pipe.
*Question*:and pardon my ignorance, but how is the cat being clogged causing the rich condition? 
Also, I never mentioned that the car felt slower and that is why I got a bigger turbo.
The original Kinetic turbo bearing was toast after only a few thousand miles, so I had it rebuilt to the new specs. Car was brought to the dyno to see what it can do. Car runs fine out of boost and while accelerating, it just runs extremely rich. This is the problem I (we) am trying to figure out.
Shawn, you didn't fail at reading that part http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I will be pressure testing the IC piping as well as trying to do a compression test on Saturday.
Wish me luck!
Thanks again for all the suggestions, keep them coming
Here is a copy of the original dyno done a little more than 2 years ago.
Car was off the road for a year before being started again this past December with the changes.
Changes as noted above.
This dyno was at approx 24+psi (mbc not working properly) if I am not mistaken.


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## DonSupreme (Apr 11, 2006)

Not saying this is the issue, but to all the people saying 10.3 is not super rich, what are you smoking?
Any lower and the mixture would barely combust...


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## JWelty (Oct 7, 2003)

*Re: (DonSupreme)*

good luck getting it figured out Rycou. it could very well be an airflow issue.. i mean if its not pushing enough air but dumping all that fuel its gonna be rich.
hopefully you will have it sorted by EuroWarz in March and you can run it down the strip


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## Mintdub (Jan 15, 2004)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

hey man! good stuff witht he water meth.. i hope you figure it out!!! mine is still running horrible... i got the new maf and stiff i am having problems... im changing the injector seals and cleaning them up and im going to see if that makes a difference.. seems like its pulling air in somewhere


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## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (Mintdub)*

chip tuning...........


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_

sry, I failed at reading that part









sorry that was a assumption on my part should have made that clear







Its just I have seen that case happen a few times at the shop I used to work for was all.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (brilliantyellowg60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brilliantyellowg60* »_chip tuning...........









Wait, even if you email them your specs??!!!
.../sarcasm.


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## 8716v (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: (rycou34)*

this is a shot into left feild but maybe it had to do with taking your bumper off to get it onto the dyno or maybe you need to paint it a different color. oh no i got it your tint isnt dark enough.








anyhow cant remember but it does have a mas air meter right ? maybe its bad or got oil on it from the filter if it was recently cleaned and oiled(had this happen on another car) or maybe check the wire to the mas air.
i can say this that bitch should be putting out more than that just by how good it looks.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (brilliantyellowg60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brilliantyellowg60* »_chip tuning...........

















You know where I am leaning.

If it were cat, etc you would expect to see abnormal EGTs in comparison to the AFR's and that does not appear to be the case based on what was posted.
My money is on tooo much timing being pulled, on top of being too rich.


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (DonSupreme)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DonSupreme* »_Not saying this is the issue, but to all the people saying 10.3 is not super rich, what are you smoking?
Any lower and the mixture would barely combust...

To me, 10.0 and lower is "super" rich. 10.01 and up is just pig rich...shortly followed by 10.99 and up being just rich.


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_
WTF are you talking about? I'm comparing 12v VR6s to 12v VR6s
I never even mentioned 16vs or 4cyls
Your reading comprehension is failing u.

Sorry people ..I was smoking crack...and thought we were runna a 4 cyl car...
SO I'm retarded...Nothing new there..

to the person saying this
*How does that make him stupid? The reason to use these is for a longer more powerful and consistent spark, the capacitive discharge coils offer intense power through the range by firing multiple sparks below 3,000RPM, over that they amplify the voltage and send over 45,000V through the secondary side. THAT is the reason to use MSD coil packs. You can go with a bigger gap because there is more voltage to jump the gap within high cylinder pressures. *
Oh really...the coils make the stock IGN module fire multiple sparks?
how about NO.....
Will they make a difference compared to the stock vr coils...yes...much better
But i still do not like MSD anything....alltho i have on on my own car..because the VW coil is worse...which is sad...
I'm using an 034efi coil on my wife's VR a much better product than msd coils and cheaper to boot.
but that has nothing to do with your problem OP.
The test pipe is a good idea...and getting a Vag Com to see what's going on
is the next logical step
this thing should go 500whp if you wish.....
Best of luck finding the gremlins.....
I must make it a point to not smoke crack when Vortexing


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## whiteriot (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: (8716v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *8716v* »_this is a shot into left feild but maybe it had to do with taking your bumper off to get it onto the dyno or maybe you need to paint it a different color. oh no i got it your tint isnt dark enough.








...
i can say this that bitch should be putting out more than that just by how good it looks.









I confused? Are you hating or loving this car?


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## 8716v (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: (whiteriot)*

im for sure loving the car! he know's it, if it wasnt for all the people there saturday i would of spanked it right there. the car is just ****ing sweet! just couldnt resist trying to lightn the mood for everone!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mintdub (Jan 15, 2004)

*Re: (8716v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *8716v* »_im for sure loving the car! he know's it, if it wasnt for all the people there saturday i would of spanked it right there. the car is just ****ing sweet! just couldnt resist trying to lightn the mood for everone!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










lmao! yes.. it was defenently sweet.. The whole thing.. engine was clean as balls














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## blue98jettavr6 (Mar 19, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (Noobercorn)*

Quote, originally posted by rycou34 » 
Stock cat and TT 2.5 stainless exhaust 
that is one of the issues right there. 
also, do you have any codes? 
Not lkely the problem. I dynoed 328ps whp @16psi and it is like the reason I'm 60whp short of other 12v vr6t on #42 chip.
Don't waste your trouble shooting on getting a bigger exhaust.


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## littlenr (Jan 23, 2002)

Sounds like you need to purchase an air fuel controller. Apexi super air fuel controller. Lower that mix and you'll be making gobs more power. Try to get the mix up around 14.6:1 cruise and 12.5:1 a WOT.


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (littlenr)*

Matt, Justin, and Antone: Thanks for the good words! I know what you meant http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Test pipe came in today and will go in tomorrow.
Will change the gap on the plugs and try and do a compression test as well.
I have tried the Apexi SAFC with the 42# setup, and I believe that it is why the car didn't run well at the time of being pulled off the road.
The mixture is fine while cruising 14.6-15.1. It is while accelerating where my problem lies.
Still trying to figure out why my VAG-COM is not working correctly on either of my cars.








Thanks again for the suggestions, keep them coming.


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## Mintdub (Jan 15, 2004)

*Re: (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_Matt, Justin, and Antone: Thanks for the good words! I know what you meant http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Test pipe came in today and will go in tomorrow.
Will change the gap on the plugs and try and do a compression test as well.
I have tried the Apexi SAFC with the 42# setup, and I believe that it is why the car didn't run well at the time of being pulled off the road.
The mixture is fine while cruising 14.6-15.1. It is while accelerating where my problem lies.
Still trying to figure out why my VAG-COM is not working correctly on either of my cars.








Thanks again for the suggestions, keep them coming.



keep us updated broski!! i hope you figure it out. How big is the downpipe/exaust you have on it now?


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## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (92g60gti)*

you are doing better than this guy........
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4202101


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (brilliantyellowg60)*

Any new updates bro?


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (broke_rado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *broke_rado* »_your problem is your running a chip tune. standalone ftw


Funny, I made 470whp with a chip and pump gas.


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

*Update*
Still trying to get VAG-COM to work on my laptop to see check codes also. So yes, I am running somewhat in the dark without knowing the codes.
Changed out the cat for a test pipe, cleaned MAF, and checked the plugs.
Re-adjusted fuel pressure to 3bar.
Drove it a few times this week to get a feel for the changes. Since these changes, there has been no difference in the running of the car except for a hesitation at low rpm's which is very annoying. Only happens when starting out in first gear or going over a speed bump and continuing in second gear down low. Again, very annoying and noticeable.
So these attempts at fixing my problem were not successful.















A few pics of the plugs (gapped at .030) and what came out of my hollowed out cat
























Any more suggestions or comments/experiences with "Lugtronics" would be helpful.
Would rather try and get it running the way it is, but may have to go with the Lugtronics ecu.
Thanks again for everyone's help! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (rycou34)*

Is anyone else running this software yet?


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*

When you go into boost how long does it take to spool up?


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## 89VWdieselGolf (Feb 22, 2004)

*Re: (benzivr6)*

doesnt a VR6 have a 4bar FPR stock?


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## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (89VWdieselGolf)*

Have you done a compression and / or leakdown test? Somewhere back on page one you posted the motor sat for two (?) years - the rings might be dead or on their way out. 
Some have posted their MSD coil setups seemed to work better on cheap copper plugs than NGK's. Wouldn't cost but about five of six bucks to find out one way or the other. 
Lastly, another guy on here had some driveability and mixture problems because either the MAF was too close to the turbo, or the tube itself was the wrong size, or both.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (vr6swap)*

Way too much fuel judging by the plugs and dead meow meow. 
1) Are you monitoring the fuel pressure during normal driving conditions?
2) Have you confirmed the MAF sensor housing diameter with C2? 
3) Have you confirmed the fuel injector flow rate (they're advertised at certain flow rates for a certain pressure) is what the chip was written for? It's possible you have fuel injectors that flow too much.
Keep at it, you'll find it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## seL (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: (DieGTi)*

Check your knock sensors...seriously. If even one of them is buggering around it will pull timing and the car won't make any power. It will seem like it drives normal, but it's just flat. 
As for the chip haters...keep on hating.


_Modified by seL at 1:08 PM 1-24-2009_


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

Plugs don't show any sign of salt and pepper (detonation). Mixture looks pretty damn rich, but not rich enough to cause extreme driveability issues. Don't know what the dark tan means. Tan is usually stoichemetric, but those are rich conditions. 
Not much help. That's all I notice though.







Good luck to you!


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (benzivr6)*

Did some driving this weekend and here is what I found:
_benzivr6
When you go into boost how long does it take to spool up? _
Boost starts about 3K and really spools about 3600-3800rpm
_89VWdieselGolf
doesnt a VR6 have a 4bar FPR stock? _
Corrado's and some Passats (early years, I believe) have a 4bar FPR
I have an adjustable setup that is set at 3bar, which is what the software is based on
_vr6swap
Have you done a compression and / or leakdown test? Somewhere back on page one you posted the motor sat for two (?) years - the rings might be dead or on their way out.
Some have posted their MSD coil setups seemed to work better on cheap copper plugs than NGK's. Wouldn't cost but about five of six bucks to find out one way or the other.
Lastly, another guy on here had some driveability and mixture problems because either the MAF was too close to the turbo, or the tube itself was the wrong size, or both. _
Have not done the compression test yet, will do this week
Motor sat for one year
Plugs were new(less than 500 miles now) NGK Bkr7E, I have tried the Champion plugs and didn't feel any difference. Will be going back to them when these are done
The MAF and the intake tube are stock C2 (95mm MAF housing) and Kinetic intake
MAF as well as the electrical connections were cleaned.
_DieGTi
Way too much fuel judging by the plugs and dead meow meow.
1) Are you monitoring the fuel pressure during normal driving conditions?
2) Have you confirmed the MAF sensor housing diameter with C2?
3) Have you confirmed the fuel injector flow rate (they're advertised at certain flow rates for a certain pressure) is what the chip was written for? It's possible you have fuel injectors that flow too much._
Definitely too much fueling, but why!!(not directed to you DieGTI, thanks for the suggestions http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif) 
I have a fuel pressure gauge, but it is underhood
The C2 MAF sensor housing is the 95mm purchased with the chip brand new from C2
I have the Siemens Deka 630cc injectors that flows 60lb/hr or 630cc / min @ 43.5psi fuel pressure
same ones that C2 sells
I am thinking about sending them out to get cleaned and calibrated. Anyone know of a good place cheaper than RC eng? 
_seL
Check your knock sensors...seriously. If even one of them is buggering around it will pull timing and the car won't make any power. It will seem like it drives normal, but it's just flat_
The front knock sensor is brand new, the rear not so much so. Want to get VAG-COM readings before I go throwing money at parts to try and fix.
This is a good point you make on the timing, I will check the connections on both sensors.
_Weiss
Plugs don't show any sign of salt and pepper (detonation). Mixture looks pretty damn rich, but not rich enough to cause extreme driveability issues. Don't know what the dark tan means. Tan is usually stoichemetric, but those are rich conditions.
Not much help. That's all I notice though. Good luck to you! _
Car really doesn't have driveability issues except for a new one mentioned below
Car runs fine out of boost, AFR is at 14.4-15.5 while cruising
Start to accelerate, and it immediately goes to 12.5 at about 3K rpms and richer the faster I go.
There is one driveability issue that has cropped up since I installed the test pipe.
When leaving a light in 1st gear or going over a speed bump rolling on 2nd gear, there is a hesitation which I noticed is caused by the AFR (AEM) going to17+. Giving more gas of course takes care of it, but I don't like the fact that it does it. Just started when I changed out the cat to the test pipe.
Any thoughts?
Anyone using Lugtronics with 630cc injectors?
Thanks again for everyone's input. It is greatly appreciated!



_Modified by rycou34 at 9:33 AM 1-27-2009_


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I'm using the 630's with megasquirt. My suggestion would be to monitor the fuel pressure while driving or better yet, on a dyno while observing the condition in a controlled environment. 
Before you go to the dyno, confirm your basics:
1) chassis to engine ground
2) main engine loom electrical connector secure and tight
3) Clean MAF sensor (CRC MAF Cleaner works great)
4) MAF sensor directionly correct 
etc.


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

In my opinion, you're at the point where you need access inside the PCM. Try to hook up VAG-com and watch the pulse width of the injectors. See if they are turning on too much. I'm sure they are. Then look at other values to determine what is out of whack. Post back what most of the PIDs are if you can't make them out. 
Nicely put, I don't think we can accurately guess what's going on without some PIDs and more information of what the PCM is thinking.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Weiss)*

All the data u need is available with vag-com.
(its all I need)
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## seL (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

The only reason I'm saying check the knock sensors is because they can LOOK good but if they are too tight or too loose they will not provide accurate readings. I had one of mine not functioning properly and it caused me to have similar problems to what you are having. FWIW it was my rear knock sensor. As Jeff noted though, you NEED a VAG COM, once you have one and scan the car I guarantee you will find your problem.


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: (seL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seL* »_The only reason I'm saying check the knock sensors is because they can LOOK good but if they are too tight or too loose they will not provide accurate readings. I had one of mine not functioning properly and it caused me to have similar problems to what you are having. FWIW it was my rear knock sensor. As Jeff noted though, you NEED a VAG COM, once you have one and scan the car I guarantee you will find your problem.

I agree bro the knock sensors are to be TQ down to ~15ft lbs if not it will cause a misreading. I had a similar problem as well but I pick it up on my VAG-CAM before I notice and difference in power


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_
I agree bro the knock sensors are to be TQ down to ~15ft lbs if not it will cause a misreading. I had a similar problem as well but I pick it up on my VAG-CAM before I notice and difference in power

x2 , ran into this issue with my syclone, same scenario.


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_ NGK Fkr7E


red flag to me. BKR7E's gapped at ~ .023 will support a TON of power. take the MSD out of your mind for a minute, and try the "normal" VRT plug and gap. 
plugs and gaps can do a TON for forced induced cars. 
oh, and get a proper vag com report dammit


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (Noobercorn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noobercorn* »_
red flag to me. BKR7E's gapped at ~ .023 will support a TON of power. take the MSD out of your mind for a minute, and try the "normal" VRT plug and gap. 
plugs and gaps can do a TON for forced induced cars. 
oh, and get a proper vag com report dammit









They are "BKr7E" plugs, that was a typo.
I will re-torque the knock sensors today. 
May be able to get another VAG-COM cable to check things out


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (rycou34)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_
They are "BKr7E" plugs, that was a typo.
I will re-torque the knock sensors today. 
May be able to get another VAG-COM cable to check things out

w3rd.


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (Weiss)*

Finally got my laptop up and running with VAG-COM.
Only problem is that it is not showing any codes, even for a secondary air pump (which I don't have).
I can see the measuring blocks and need to know which blocks will lead me to the info I would need for the injector pulse width. Any other blocks that I should monitor?
I looked in a few, and one had me puzzled: had two areas for misfires one was blank and the other was 10.2/s at idle and rose to 20.?/s when reving to 2500-3000rpm. Car has not been running well lately. Running rough during reving up to 3K rpm as well as lean (17.3 and up) on the wideband. I am going to change out the coilpacks (MSD) and put a stock one in to help with that problem. I also believe the walbro in-tank my be on its way out. Turns on, but have a pulsing sensation in the fuel line.
Any help is appreciated as always.
TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

the new c2 chips wont throw codes for second o2 sensor or secondary air pump so that is normal.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

_Quote, originally posted by *rycou34* »_I also believe the walbro in-tank my be on its way out. Turns on, but have a pulsing sensation in the fuel line.

Whilst the engine is running at idle I assume?
Batch fired injectors would cause a noticable pulsing in the fuel line, so don't assume it's the pump just yet.
Batch fired would mean your cam position sensor is dead though, which should should up in VAG-COM (G40 iirc).


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## 92gtikid (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (89VWdieselGolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89VWdieselGolf* »_doesnt a VR6 have a 4bar FPR stock?

If it's a OBD1 it has a 4bar fpr.
OBDII has a 3 bar.


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (92gtikid)*

Any input on which measuring blocks to look at on VAG-COM?
TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## big byrd (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Noobercorn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noobercorn* »_
red flag to me. BKR7E's gapped at ~ .023 will support a TON of power. take the MSD out of your mind for a minute, and try the "normal" VRT plug and gap. 
plugs and gaps can do a TON for forced induced cars. 
oh, and get a proper vag com report dammit









This....gap your plugs at .023 and see if that helps, could be blowing out the spark at .030


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (big byrd)*

Already done, but not mentioned. gap at .024 and no difference.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: (rycou34)*

...so what ever happened with your issue?
... i was doing some research and i just happened to land on this post... read the whole thing now i want to know what happened?


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

do you have any way of data logging?
nobody mention ign timing. i'd be curious to see your total advance under boost.


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*FV-QR*

For those curious, I did get the car running well with an almost complete fuel system overhaul.
I used a new stock in-tank pump feeding 5/16" line merged to -6 AN lines all the way to the fuel rail. I have a brand new Bosch 044 and an Audi V8 fuel filter and an Aeromotive adj FPR feeding the 630cc inj.
Since this change, I came to the conclusion that the first Bosch inline pump (from a BMW, I found out) was the culprit. Car had been running well, up to the point I blew the seals and bearing in the turbo. Just got the injectors cleaned and tested as well as turbo and engine rebuilt. Also put a 3" exhaust on it last year. Car will be up and running in a few weeks with some driveline changes


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## S3.2 (Sep 19, 2009)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

Do an open DP test. Even without the cat, a 2.5" exhaust is restriction.You should move to 3". Also turn off the water/meth, it's making your AFRs richer. I suppose your C2 software is not built to compensate to Meth inj. And do the leak-pipe test!


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## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (S3.2)*

As mentioned above, the car does have a full 3" exhaust(turbo all the way back) now. Car was running strong when more changes took precedence.


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## turboit (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: C2 630cc file dyno, WTF?? (rycou34)*

good to hear you got it running good before the turbo went... looking forward to seeing some new numbers with the turbo done http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## hubbell (Oct 30, 2001)

*Re: (92gtikid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92gtikid* »_
If it's a OBD1 it has a 4bar fpr.
OBDII has a 3 bar.

this is not true, just fyi in case someone reads this.....glad you got the car running well. years later...


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: (hubbell)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hubbell* »_
this is not true, just fyi in case someone reads this.....glad you got the car running well. years later...









i think its true


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (ade007)*

OBD1 dizzy have 4 bar.
0BD1 with coilpack and newer MAF has 3bar
0BD2 has 3 bar.
End of story.


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

0BD1 with coilpack and newer MAF has 3bar
thanks for this info


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_OBD1 dizzy have 4 bar.
0BD1 with coilpack and newer MAF has 3bar
0BD2 has 3 bar.
End of story.

My obd1 coil pack had a 4bar form the factory.


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: (ALLGORIMSHOW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ALLGORIMSHOW* »_
My obd1 coil pack had a 4bar form the factory.


my obd1 coilpack had 4 bar but was 5 wire maf 
was your car a 95 vr obd1 with 4 pin maf ?


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

_Quote, originally posted by *ade007* »_
my obd1 coilpack had 4 bar but was 5 wire maf 
was your car a 95 vr obd1 with 4 pin maf ? 

it was a 95 and I remember now, it was a 5 pin.


_Modified by ALLGORIMSHOW at 2:08 PM 3-4-2010_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

My 95 has a 4pin maf and 4bar was stock.


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

my buddys obd1 coilpack 4 pin maf has stock 4bar


----------

