# Engine starts and dies within a minute (Fuel Pump, Fuel Filter Discussion)



## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

This must be the week for Phaeton issues.

This evening as I was leaving from work, I started the car up and within a minute it died. I thought it must just be the cold, so I started it up again, and again it died. I had driven the car to work this morning, then taken it out at lunch time to run an errand, and everything was fine. I decided to drive the car to see if it just needs a charge, but again, as I was pulling out into the street the car died again. And again across the street in a big parking lot. Eventually I just pulled back into work, called the wife to pick me up and to bring along the vag-com cable and her laptop.

While waiting, I decided to start the car again, and again it died. So I wait, and once my ride arrived, I plugged the vag-com in and did a read. I got some initial intermittent faults, so I cleared them, started the car, waited for it to die, then did another scan to see what happened. Couple of things came up: Intervention load management kicked in (00907) and Supply Voltage Terminal 30 - Lower Limit Exceeded (00668 - 002).

I read another post where apparently it was the fuel filter that needed to be replaced. I did check the measuring blocks on Control 07, and it did say that Terminal 30 was at 0 amps, while Terminal 15 fluctuated but never went higher than 10 amps. 

Is it a bad battery? A loose connection on the battery? Or should I do the fuel filter? Both batteries were replaced in late 2007, so it's not that old. 

Any help as always is appreciated.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Julian,

When your car starts normally, it is not your battery. And the faults you are reporting are just about always present in my scans, just like in the scans of many others. You may want to check your dash voltmeter to see it reaches at least 13.5 Volts within 10 seconds after starting the engine.
I think, but it is a year ago since I last measured it, that those currents you indicate are just about correct. The amount of Ah, needed to start the car is very small and is replenished quickly. So, with a healthy car, the charge amps doesn't need to be that high. 
Besides, the terminal 30 & 15 currents, as observed via VCDS, are *net* currents, not the total current from the generator. Therefore, the current flowing into your starter battery isn't part of these measurements.

I think there is a problem with your fuel supply as you suggested. But it is strange, that VCDS doesn't report this.

Willem


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

These symptoms remind me of other users' descriptions whose problem ended up in being a bad fuel pump.

P.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

I hope not; my neighbor who is an auto mechanic said it might just be a fuse, and to test them first. Looking at the ross-tech wiki, the error code 00668 also suggests the first thing to check is the fuse. So that's what I'll do first thing tomorrow. If that's not it, then fuel pump or fuel filter will need to be replaced.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

If it were a fuse, once it's blown, there is virtually no way whatever it was protecting could work again...

P.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

What do you mean? I believe a fuse is in place to blow before anything can damage the component it's protecting.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

I think that what Pierre meant was this: Once the fuse blows, the component that it protects will be inoperative (until, of course, the fuse gets replaced with a new fuse).

Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Exactly. If the car died due to an inoperative component due to a blown fuse, for example, then, there is no way it should run again before the fuse is replaced...

So if it periodically runs fine, then, unfortunately, it is not a fuse...

P.


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

it could be a bad battery connection but definitely do not rule out the fuel pump yet...esp the passenger side...seems thats the one thats going out for most. From what you are mentioning, it seems fuel is being cut off. 

You didnt mention if its puttering to a stop or just abruptly stopping. did the check engine light come on by any chance? if these are happening, then its def your fuel pump.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

Check engine light is not on. However, it does putter to a stop. Gives almost like a death rattle before it dies.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Didn't I read somewhere that there are two fuel pumps? Or is that only on the W12? If there are two and only one is running, it's possible that one is building up sufficient pressure to get started, but not to sustain running the engine.


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

JulianBenjamin said:


> However, it does putter to a stop. Gives almost like a death rattle before it dies.


The puttering to a stop is EXACTLY what happened with my car. Do not know why its not throwing a CEL....weird. But this most definitely indicates that it is your fuel pump. one (out of two) of them is most definitely out to make your fuel supply to get cut off. If you are taking it to a dealership, have them check each to make sure to only change the faulty one. 

An indy shop you trust can do the job too...it should be really easy and parts are cheap elsewhere but the dealership. I believe that there is a DIY for the fuel pump replacement put up here in the past couple of months if you are upto the task


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

itsallbeendonebefore said:


> The puttering to a stop is EXACTLY what happened with my car. Do not know why its not throwing a CEL....weird. But this most definitely indicates that it is your fuel pump. one (out of two) of them is most definitely out to make your fuel supply to get cut off. If you are taking it to a dealership, have them check each to make sure to only change the faulty one.
> 
> An indy shop you trust can do the job too...it should be really easy and parts are cheap elsewhere but the dealership. I believe that there is a DIY for the fuel pump replacement put up here in the past couple of months if you are upto the task


Could it be the immobilizer? When I start the car and open the trunk fuses, I hear the click of the fuel pump relay right when the car dies.

I know my steering wheel immobilizer wires are loose, and I'm going to take a look when I get the car home. However, the car starts fine, which makes me think it might not be the immobilizer, as that should prevent the car from starting in the first place; unless i'm mistaken in how it works.

I don't have any codes thrown, except for the terminal 30 thing and the load management, and I assume a bad fuel pump would throw a code somewhere.

When you say fuel pump, should I first change the fuel filter, or should I just replace the pump itself? Would a clogged filter cause this?


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

Also, is there any way to disable the immobilizer just to cross that out as a culprit?


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

JulianBenjamin said:


> Could it be the immobilizer?
> 
> When you say fuel pump, should I first change the fuel filter, or should I just replace the pump itself? Would a clogged filter cause this?



The fuel pump could still be working albeit at a much weaker and erratic rate. the amount of fuel being pumped is not adequate or constant to keep the engine running thus triggering the cars comp to shut it down and prevent any further damage to the engine. It could be a clogged fuel filter causing this but my best guess is that your pump itself has worn out like mine. but def get it checked out to confirm because no codes related to bad fuel pump has been thrown. you could end up being a completely different thing....keep us posted. 

If your immobilizer has kicked in, then my best guess is that the comp has a default setting that detects certain activity (pulling fuses, multiple starts etc) and immobilizes the car. unfortunately, i am unaware of how to deactivate it. someone else with knowledge on that front surely will help you. good luck


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

JulianBenjamin said:


> Also, is there any way to disable the immobilizer just to cross that out as a culprit?


Julian:

_[Laughing out loud as I write this]..._ No, that's not possible. If it was, the thieves of the world would have a field day. :laugh:

Michael


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## boessie (Oct 30, 2011)

Maybe stupid but are you sure you have enough gas in your tank ?
I've known somebody who's fuel gauge didn't work correctly and ran out fuel 
without knowing. (and it was not me )

Gunther


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

Yeah, I have a little over half. Everything now points to the fuel pump (haven't replaced the fuel filter yet though). So tomorrow I think that's going to be what needs fixing.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

Turned out to be a bad tank of gas. I was all set to tow it to the dealer this morning after a weekend of checking everything and even changing the fuel filter (still kept shutting down), and this morning when I started it up it just worked without even a hint of wanting to stall.

So I drove it to the dealer, and it drove fine. Dropped it off, and they ran it through, and checked everything, even did a long test drive, and said everything looks ok, and that it might have been a bad tank of gas. I had filled it up from a gas station I had never used before (and never will again), so it's possible.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

Well, problem manifested itself again. This time it was towed to the shop immediately, and they diagnosed it as a faulty main fuel pump. So that's going to be replaced.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

This makes much more sense than "a bad tank of gas"...

Victor


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

I suppose it was too good to be true. The thing just never threw any codes or faults, which to me is very surprising, as the car throws faults for everything else.


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## Tully Lee (Jan 3, 2011)

*Engine starts and then dies... Probable Fuel Pump Problem*

Car starts right up on first crank. Runs smooth. Amp meter perfect, 1/2 tank of gas. THERE ARE NO ERROR LIGHTS ON. 30 seconds latter car dies. I restart and same thing 30 seconds or so car dies. 

Any ideas on this one? Has 72,000 miles on it. Was running perfect till today. 

My guess would be fuel related. Fuel pump or fuel filter. If either one if these what is process or related costs.

Going to have to be flat bed to dealer today. Before I did wanted to get the forums feed back.

Tully


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## Tully Lee (Jan 3, 2011)

What was cost of the fuel pump job?


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Sounds like a bad fuel pump. 

P.


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## Tully Lee (Jan 3, 2011)

$850 is going rate


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

$900. Diagnostic was almost $150, so overall it came to a little over $1000.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

I had the same thing. When you're changing the fuel pump, change the fuel filter as well. it's probably clogged (mine was).


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Zaphh said:


> Exactly. If the car died due to an inoperative component due to a blown fuse, for example, then, there is no way it should run again before the fuse is replaced...
> 
> So if it periodically runs fine, then, unfortunately, it is not a fuse...
> 
> P.


 I'm sure Pierre is saying that the problem could only have occurred once if it was a blown fuel pump fuse and it seems to have repeated itself thus suggesting that the fuse is fine...? 

Good luck, 
Steven


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## Tully Lee (Jan 3, 2011)

Good idea Julian.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

JulianBenjamin said:


> I had the same thing. When you're changing the fuel pump, change the fuel filter as well. it's probably clogged (mine was).


 Now this is interesting. Could the clogged filter be the reason for the failing pump ?


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

That's what my guess would be; a clogged filter probably makes the fuel pump work overtime to push fuel through.


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## Tully Lee (Jan 3, 2011)

Watch the warranty company deny my claim using that exact excuse . You neglected to replace your fuel filter hence this claim is on your dime... Car at dealer for 6 hours now and they have not had a chance to look at it.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Strange... they make it appear as if you should have been aware of regular fuel filter replacement intervals. As far as I know, there is no such interval. If your dealer or VWoA has not specified a specific service interval of which you could have been aware of, their same argument can work in favour of your case. 
Willem


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

WillemBal said:


> Strange... they make it appear as if you should have been aware of regular fuel filter replacement intervals. As far as I know, there is no such interval. If your dealer or VWoA has not specified a specific service interval of which you could have been aware of, their same argument can work in favour of your case.
> Willem


 Willem, 

Both Chris (Paximus) and I did a lot of research on what is and isn't due for change when (VW don't make it that clear certainly in the service book that I have) but the consensus on dealer web sites is that the fuel filter is to be changed every 2 years or 2,000 miles. 

In this particular case clearly the issue will be how this was (or not) conveyed to the OP? 

Best 
Steven


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Is the fuel filter easily accessible?


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

Yes, under the car by the rear passenger door. 20 minutes to replace. Fuel filter itself is around $20-$30 i believe.


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## Tully Lee (Jan 3, 2011)

Warranty says they will pay $850.00 plus tax. They will not pay for the broken window regulator which is $650.00. Hit or miss. Most important part of after market warranty is "what is not mentioned is not covered".... Read between the lines can be difficult. Will keep all updated

Tully


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Expoman said:


> Willem,
> 
> Both Chris (Paximus) and I did a lot of research on what is and isn't due for change when (VW don't make it that clear certainly in the service book that I have) but the consensus on dealer web sites is that the fuel filter is to be changed every 2 years or 2,000 miles.
> 
> ...


 Sorry, that should be 20,000 miles!


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## valmes (Oct 27, 2009)

Had this problem with my W12. Dealer said "change the pumps". Took it eslewhere for a second opinion and guess what? There was a problem with wiring, where ecu couldn't see a fuel pump and would shut off the engine. Had to re-wire the pump(s) and it worked fine after that. Btw, it was like 1/10th cost of "the new fuel pumps + replacement work". 

Just my 2c.


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## PGrace (Feb 1, 2012)

*I had two problems, I think they were actually one problem.*

I had the occasional stalling issue, it happened in specific circumstances...
It has to be a warm to hot day, the car was fully warm, I shut it off, and come back to start it 5-20 minutes later...Runs for a few seconds, dies, won't start for a few tries, then starts.

It was only an occasional thing, so I just lived with it.

Second problem, cold mornings, start the car, and 30-60 seconds later I notice a strong gasoline odor in the cabin. I don't want to "just live with" gas vapor around the car, so I take that to my mechanic who can use the sniffer to find it. Turns out the fuel supply lines (there are more than one in the W12) cross the exhaust manifold, and where they do they change from rubber lines, to steel, and back to rubber. My 2004 rubber was a bit perished, and they had developed a leak. Replaced, Problem solved.

Since that fuel supply line was replaced, the car has never stalled in the heat-soak condition. So it seems the fuel lines that were allowing gas out in the one condition, might also have allowed air in, in the other, causing the "vapor lock" symptoms...

YMMV, but it's something to check.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

PGrace said:


> I had the occasional stalling issue, it happened in specific circumstances...
> It has to be a warm to hot day, the car was fully warm, I shut it off, and come back to start it 5-20 minutes later...Runs for a few seconds, dies, won't start for a few tries, then starts.
> 
> It was only an occasional thing, so I just lived with it.
> ...


Hi Paul:

*A million thanks* for taking the time to make that post. I have been having exactly the same two problems with my car for the past year - starts then stalls when the engine has been shut off for a short time (5 to 20 minutes) if the engine is fully warmed up, and also the gasoline odour in the winter.

You just saved me hours and hours of diagnostic and troubleshooting time. I'll look at those rubber hoses later this week.

It's interesting to note that we are starting to see all sorts of problems with rubber parts perishing now that the cars are getting to be 10 or 11 years old. The rubber bushings around my front droplinks perished (they didn't "wear out", they degraded), and I have seen a number of posts in the last year about other rubber parts perishing (although I can't recall off the top of my head exactly what the parts were). I'm now going to add this discussion to the FAQ, and post a few Archival Links to this post in the other discussions about engines stalling, fuel shortages, and so forth.

Once again, *a million thanks*, Paul.

Michael


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## PGrace (Feb 1, 2012)

PanEuropean said:


> Hi Paul:
> 
> *A million thanks* for taking the time to make that post. I have been having exactly the same two problems with my car for the past year - starts then stalls when the engine has been shut off for a short time (5 to 20 minutes) if the engine is fully warmed up, and also the gasoline odour in the winter.
> 
> ...


Quite welcome. FYI, my bushings on the front drop links were replaced about a year ago for the same reason.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note:*

The Phaeton also has electric fuel pumps in the fuel tank. For more information about troubleshooting and replacing these electric fuel pumps, see this discussion: Electric Fuel Pump Failure: Diagnosis, Mitigation, Pump Replacement

Michael


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

This is a scary thread! Does anybody know if the other engine types also have fuel lines made of rubber that perishes so quickly??


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

PanEuropean said:


> *A million thanks* for taking the time to make that post. I have been having exactly the same two problems with my car for the past year - starts then stalls when the engine has been shut off for a short time (5 to 20 minutes) if the engine is fully warmed up, and also the gasoline odour in the winter.


Hrm... mine is occasionally "stumbly" for several seconds after a warm restart, particularly in winter. It rarely stalls but it gets close. I had written it off to the ethanol boil-off issue the old TSB talks about being fixed incompletely. I've never smelled fuel, but maybe it's worth looking for a residual fuel pressure leak-down.

I can't really explain why this would only affect warm restart. I wonder if the Phaeton ECU tries to get way too smart and skips the fuel system re-pressurization run if it's been run recently? Ordinarily the fuel pumps run for a few seconds whenever you unlock the car and get in, before you even put in the key.

Jason


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

invisiblewave said:


> This is a scary thread! Does anybody know if the other engine types also have fuel lines made of rubber that perishes so quickly??


Indeed.

It's been known to happen. Ethanol mixes are very, very tough on rubber, particularly older cars that predate that mixture. It plays havoc with fuel lines in lawn equipment too. Even when auto manufacturers started planning on some and adjusting their fuel line materials to match, E10 escalated to E15 and even further in some areas I think. And of course, some people just have to try E85, and then say "oh it works fine!". Yeah, it's close enough for the engine to burn, but if the car isn't checked out for E85, it's eating your fuel system from the inside out.

Jason


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My 28 year old rubber Porsche fuel lines are still good, although they're being swapped to steel as we speak. I wonder if there's a kit for the Phaeton??


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

invisiblewave said:


> Does anybody know if the other engine types also have fuel lines made of rubber that perishes _*so quickly*_??


Hi Martin:

I'm not sure that perishing after 10 years should be considered to be 'so quickly', if you catch my drift. In the aviation industry, we commonly replace rubber hoses after 7 years, and I'm going to guess that aviation hoses are probably a higher spec of rubber than automotive hoses.

But, having said that, I think that perishing of rubber products is going to become an increasingly more important (and more topical) subject in our forum now that the North American fleet is (on average) over 10 years old. I carried out a lot of work on my car yesterday at the VW dealer, and I was quite surprised by the degradation of many of the rubber components in the drivetrain, suspension system, and under the body of the car. I'll describe that later today in a series of topic-specific posts.

Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

PanEuropean said:


> *Archival Note:*
> 
> The Phaeton also has electric fuel pumps in the fuel tank. For more information about troubleshooting and replacing these electric fuel pumps, see this discussion: Electric Fuel Pump Failure: Diagnosis, Mitigation, Pump Replacement
> 
> Michael



Hi Michael and everyone else,


Having now read this thread and the above referenced thread (fascinating and informative as always), I notice that that a few members have changed their fuel filters at one time or another, and that it has been stated that the fuel filter should be changed every 2 years or 20,000 miles. I don't remember ever seeing the fuel filter listed as an item on the scheduled maintenance sheet, and I don't think I have EVER replaced mine. 


Having this catalytic converter fault problem, the scans of which show some fuel mixture issues (see my recent thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6909671-Pre-catalytic-converter-issues ), as well as having had some stalling at startup issues a few months ago (magically disappeared), I'm wondering if changing the fuel filter could play a role in ANY of this? Even if totally unrelated, is changing the fuel filter periodically definitely a recommended service item that I've missed somehow, and by changing it could it possibly help protect the fuel pumps from failing the way yours did?


Best regards,
Ron M.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

As far as I can tell, my fuel filter has never been changed either. I was planning to specifically ask for it at the next service.


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## pgoober (Jan 4, 2009)

*I dunno about that service interval, seems a little short.*

All,

My locals claim the service interval to be "as needed" but if you wanted to do it every two years they are pretty cheap ($35) as phaetonbits go. Doesn't take take long to do yourself. 
If the mechanic already has your car up, then the fuel filter is easy enough for them to change and won't cost much more than that.
If you request it they will do it...billable work!


-BD


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## ChrisWa (Jun 19, 2018)

*My Phaeton won't run! Is there a solution to this stalling problem? Thanks you so much!!!!*

*I'm having the exact same- very specific stalling problem with my 2004 V8 Phaeton! It runs perfectly for 20-30 seconds, then it dies. The issue is covered in this thread and one or two others, but I don't see the final outcome / I don't see a final reply from the guys who had this specific issue as to what finally fixed it. Can someone please let me know what fixes this specific issue??? *

It's a definite cut off and stall. It runs fine, will drive and get to high RPMs, and then sputters and dies. Always at around 24 ish seconds. I can do this a hundred times. That indicates that it's not a clogged fuel filter or anything like that, since it runs perfect until it dies. 

I had this issue once before four months ago, had it towed to my mechanic who called everyone at VW for a solution and never found one. But then it just went away and has been working fine. Now it's back and I can't drive my car. 

I assume the guys who had this issue eventually solved it? *What is the fix?? This is brutal- I can't drive my car!* SO thank you in advance sooooo much for helping me with the answer!!! Cheers. Chris


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

ChrisWa said:


> *I'm having the exact same- very specific stalling problem with my 2004 V8 Phaeton! It runs perfectly for 20-30 seconds, then it dies. The issue is covered in this thread and one or two others, but I don't see the final outcome / I don't see a final reply from the guys who had this specific issue as to what finally fixed it. Can someone please let me know what fixes this specific issue??? *


It's your primary fuel pump. I've been there and done that.

Normally you couldn't start at all with a bad fuel pump, but the Phaeton has two. The secondary pump turns on *a) during startup and a few seconds after*, b) under high engine load, c) when you have less than 1/4 tank of fuel (because of the shape of the fuel tank). So you can start your engine, and you have normal fuel pressure for a bit, and then fuel pressure bleeds down and the engine dies shortly after it stops.

As a diagnostic or emergency measure, you can take a short piece of wire and use it to bypass relay J49 in relay position 6b in the trunk, providing power full-time to the secondary fuel pump. Takes five minutes. I can't post pictures right now (thanks Google Chrome for the TLS social engineering breaking all my stuff), but if you want to PM me your email address, I can email you a couple pictures. This isn't a fix, it's a diagnostic, and a way to drive the car in an emergency or to a shop if you must. With the J49 relay bypassed, the secondary fuel pump will run at all times, including with the ignition off, so don't leave a bypass wire in unless you're driving, or you'll run your battery flat.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Following up to myself:



jyoung8607 said:


> As a diagnostic or emergency measure, you can take a short piece of wire and use it to bypass relay J49 in relay position 6b in the trunk, providing power full-time to the secondary fuel pump. Takes five minutes. I can't post pictures right now (thanks Google Chrome for the TLS social engineering breaking all my stuff), but if you want to PM me your email address, I can email you a couple pictures.


Let's see if Chrome/VWVortex will condescend to allow me non-TLS images as clickable links rather than embedded.

Locate your relay panel above the left-side battery:

http://ccxtips.net/~jyoung/vwvortex/phaeton-j49-bypass-1.jpg

Take a piece of decently heavy gauge wire, about 6 inches long, and strip about half an inch off the ends:

http://ccxtips.net/~jyoung/vwvortex/phaeton-j49-bypass-2.jpg

Locate and remove the J49 relay. It's labeled '404', one of three. Of that set, it's the one on the right.

http://ccxtips.net/~jyoung/vwvortex/phaeton-j49-bypass-3.jpg

Insert the bypass wire between the two larger horizontal spade terminals. Do NOT insert it in any of the three smaller vertical spade terminals above, or you will get to replace some fuses. You'll probably see a small spark as you connect the two terminals; this is normal. The fuel pump is a pretty high current consumer. You should hear the fuel pump, faintly, if you're working in a quiet area.

http://ccxtips.net/~jyoung/vwvortex/phaeton-j49-bypass-4.jpg

Start the car. If it starts and runs indefinitely, then you've diagnosed the problem. Replace your primary fuel pump. DO NOT leave that wire in place unless you are actively trying to start or drive the car, or it will run down your battery. You'll have a MIL (check engine light) because the ECU actively monitors that relay's performance, and it's missing, but you can just clear that when you've fixed the car properly.


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## ChrisWa (Jun 19, 2018)

Thanks for the response! I really appreciate it.  Just sent you a PM w/ my info.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

ChrisWa said:


> Thanks for the response! I really appreciate it. Just sent you a PM w/ my info.


Responded, but really just the same pics as above. Take a look at the instructions in my post above if you haven't already. Let us know how it goes!


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Doesn't removing the primary fuel pump relay do the same thing?

EDIT: Never mind. 

I see ChrisWa has less than 1/2 a tank.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I believe it does Eric, it's not necessary to bypass the relay, just pull it out.


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## DugSms (Apr 23, 2018)

ChrisWa said:


> *I'm having the exact same- very specific stalling problem with my 2004 V8 Phaeton! It runs perfectly for 20-30 seconds, then it dies. The issue is covered in this thread and one or two others, but I don't see the final outcome / I don't see a final reply from the guys who had this specific issue as to what finally fixed it. Can someone please let me know what fixes this specific issue??? *
> 
> It's a definite cut off and stall. It runs fine, will drive and get to high RPMs, and then sputters and dies. Always at around 24 ish seconds. I can do this a hundred times. That indicates that it's not a clogged fuel filter or anything like that, since it runs perfect until it dies.
> 
> ...


Here's the summary of the solutions that have been done in this thread and others recently. (In order of relative cost to repair)
1. Clogged fuel filter (about $12 for a filter and a new clamp from AutoZone)
2. New rubber fuel lines if they are leaking/weeping fuel (Various cost but less than $25)
3. New wiring or relay to fuel pump (various costs, but one user said it was considerably cheaper than a new fuel pump)
4. Bad fuel primary fuel pump (I did mine for around $300 including the pump, new gasket, and the removal tool) 

Those costs go up appreciably if you hire it out to a shop, and more again if you take it to a dealer. Of those, the new filter and rubber fuel lines are the easiest and cheapest solutions to try first and can be done at home fairly easily.

I don't see how you don't see any solutions in this thread. All of these came from responses in this thread.

For me, I pulled the primary fuel pump relay (bottom left most 404 relay in trunk fuse box) and the problems went away. That verified that it was fuel pump related and not fuel lines or fuel filter. I had also already replaced the fuel filter so that was ruled out before the problem started.


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## ChrisWa (Jun 19, 2018)

*My Hero!*

J Young you are my hero! The pictures were perfect. Using the wire between the fuse connections to keep the Secondary fuel pump on continually, instead of just the ~25 seconds it runs typically runs when you start the car, is a BRILLIANT diagnostic. It was incredibly simple to do with the help of your pictures. And alas, as long as the wire was there, the car kept running, and I drove it around the block, etc. As soon as I pulled it, it died. So clearly with that secondary pump running everything was fine. But the main fuel pump wasn't running, so without the secondary it died immediately. Hence the problem is the main fuel pump.

As an FYI, I had a service tech at the dealer tell me that since it's running perfectly, revs etc, for the first 30 seconds or so, that's it's very unlikely it's the fuel pump. That here is really no way that the the fuel pump will work perfectly for the exact same amount of time every time we start it, and then magically turn off. That if it wasn't working right, it would run rough the entire time, and run for a little longer or shorter sometimes, or not run at all. He clearly either didn't realize that there are two fuel pumps. Or maybe just didn't realize the second pump ran for ~25 seconds when you start the car. Whatever the case, your understanding of how the car works, and the logic you used to figure it out, is awesome. 

When I took it in a few months ago for the same problem, after two days there was still no solution, It magically started working again until now. And I was worried I was going to have the same situation again and a huge bill for them trying to solve it. Which would have been the case, except that you were gracious enough to take the time to help Jason. You are a stud buddy. And I appreciate it. 

New fuel pump will be ordered tomorrow. I will update when I have a final-final. FYI I know I saw pics of the pump install process and the part numbers, if anyone has a link to that post handy please share. Otherwise I'll find it I know it's in here. Thanks again.


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## ChrisWa (Jun 19, 2018)

*Link to the Fuel Pump Replacement Procedure:*

Link to the Fuel Pump Replacement Procedure:
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...e-(W12)-Diagnosis-Mitigation-Pump-Replacement


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## catkiller_007 (Mar 31, 2018)

Hi,

I similar issue is here: https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6899103

The idea is to go in the fuse box in the trunk, and find the two fuel pump relays, remove one by one, and start the car.

From the thread: "I found that if you just remove the primary's fuel pump relay, then secondary fuel pump starts working right instead of primary fuel pump, and you do not need to modify any relay at all."

Another idea is to bypass the relay of the working pump with a wire, to make it run continuously, just to confirm the pump

Adrian.


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## steveskinr (Oct 31, 2007)

You may want to replace both fuel pumps at the same time.


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## DugSms (Apr 23, 2018)

steveskinr said:


> You may want to replace both fuel pumps at the same time.


Having just replaced my primary fuel pump, I would not suggest replacing both.
1. There have been no reports of the secondary pump failing and
2. It is another $200+ for a pump that isn't necessary for the car to run.

If the secondary pump fails, you can still drive the car but with possible reduced performance at high RPMs.


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