# HPFP APR or AWE?



## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

I'm looking to get a HPFP to go with my APR Stage 2 flash and TBE. I would like to know which HPFP to get. APR can rebuild my stock HPFP(brand new car) for $650+labor, but AWE as a HPFP kit solution for $400. Do either of these need a special software tune? Why is one a lot more expensive than the other? Are there any charts comparing these 2 pumps? And does it matter that I don't have an aftermarket intake?
Sorry for the stupid questions.


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Buy the APR rebuild...granted I'm biased (since I own the APR pump), but APR will verify that you get back a 100% tested and working HPFP! Plus, you run APR's software already...with their pump, you will be able to receive full support from them should you ever run into an issue. Either way, you will want to upgrade to APR's sII+HPFP software (and an intake is NOT required).


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

AWE reuses the stock spring and retainer and uses a stepped piston to keep the weight down. The stepped piston also allows them to reuse the stock pump seal and threaded housing.
APR replaces the stock return spring with an increased rate unit, a constant diameter piston, which also includes a new seal and threaded housing. APR also assembles and flow tests your unit for that price.
Dave


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

all the units except apr reuse the stock spring.
so get the APR
this makes me wonder which pump giac uses.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_all the units except apr reuse the stock spring.
so get the APR
this makes me wonder which pump giac uses.

They've been mentioning autotech. Autotech is also what VF supplies in their RSS kits.
Dave


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: HPFP APR or AWE? (Diocletian)*

Well, it depends what you want. When you buy our HPFP you are receiving a product that has been tested and broken in prior to ever touching your vehicle. This is valuable to you because it significantly reduces any chance of you damaging your vehicle from an improper pump rebuild. You'll also have peace of mind knowing we have used this same design since 2006 when Volkswagen of America first asked us to develop a stage 3 turbo kit for the R-GTI. Beyond that, our race team, which is now in it's second season, has put our HPFP though brutal testing around the track in all three of our race cars with absolute success. Because of this, the VW Motorsport GT24 Sciroccos in Germany also run our HPFP. Lastly though our FSI fuel pump sales, we have become a Tier-One supplier to SEAT Sport for use in their racing endeavors. 

We also are not simply giving you an upgraded piston and bore, we upgrade and replace all of the following:








Here is a breakdown of what those parts do:








If you're interested in our testing machine, here it is:


















_Modified by [email protected] at 8:51 AM 1-26-2009_


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: HPFP APR or AWE? ([email protected])*

lets put it this way i am no fan boy of any company i tell it as it is, i have owned several different design fuel pump and nothing on the market even comes close to the APR design http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif you will be glad you spent the extra money


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## anguishxiii (Jun 8, 2007)

*Re: HPFP APR or AWE? ([email protected])*

apr pump ftw. nothing compares to it.


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: HPFP APR or AWE? (anguishxiii)*

side question:
where can I get that oil cap on the testing machine? That thing would look nice with a nuespeed cf engine cover.


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

Great writeup and pics Arin! It's nice to see a breakdown of what you guys do to the pumps and how you test them! I love my APR pump!


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

I've got the KMD hpfp ($487.00 installed with the REVO Stage II hpfp flash) & everythings cool with my car as far as getting enough fuel to the engine


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: (rippie74)*

Thanks for the wealth of information guys, looks like APR will be my choice again. Still need an answer to one of my other questions though. Does the APR HPFP need special software tuning? If so, I'm assuming APR does this at no charge? If that's the case I'll be heading to USP in the next week to get one installed haha!

Edit: Oops just reread the first response, so my questions have been answered. So I'm assuming the Stage 2+HPFP software is at no charge?


_Modified by Diocletian at 6:52 PM 1-26-2009_


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_Thanks for the wealth of information guys, looks like APR will be my choice again. Still need an answer to one of my other questions though. Does the APR HPFP need special software tuning? If so, I'm assuming APR does this at no charge? If that's the case I'll be heading to USP in the next week to get one installed haha!

Edit: Oops just reread the first response, so my questions have been answered. So I'm assuming the Stage 2+HPFP software is at no charge?

_Modified by Diocletian at 6:52 PM 1-26-2009_

The _hpfp file _from APR might be something like *$50.00*


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## Oscar33 (Apr 15, 2006)

*Re: (Diocletian)*

not free unfortunately but I've heard it ranging from 20-60 bucks.


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

The APR sII+ HPFP Upgrade Software is free as far as APR goes...the cost to upgrade the software on your car is built into the price of the HPFP. With that said, your software installer (ie shop) can charge you their standard labor rate for the software installation.


_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 2:50 PM 1-26-2009_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_Thanks for the wealth of information guys, looks like APR will be my choice again. Still need an answer to one of my other questions though. Does the APR HPFP need special software tuning? If so, I'm assuming APR does this at no charge? If that's the case I'll be heading to USP in the next week to get one installed haha!

Edit: Oops just reread the first response, so my questions have been answered. So I'm assuming the Stage 2+HPFP software is at no charge?

_Modified by Diocletian at 6:52 PM 1-26-2009_

The file is free


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
The file is free

Yeah some shops charge and some don't. I have been reflashed 3 times, all for free.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Just to clarify, the *SOFTWARE* is free. A shop may charge labor for the time it takes them to setup and install the software. This is not an APR cost, and is a cost associated with the shop you choose. Non the less, if you bring it to us directly, there is never a labor charge for software.


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Well I got the APR HPFP installed on Saturday and let me just say, "WOW!" It's like a night and day difference, I can actually use all the power I paid for now.







It's a little pricey but if you have Stage 2 software with a TBE installed I think this is a must buy to get the most out of your setup.
USP even hooked me up with a free APR Tuned badge and stickers so I a represent you guys.







Thanks again!


_Modified by Diocletian at 4:22 PM 2-2-2009_


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Awesome!


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## panzer 2.3 (May 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Just to be a voice on the other side, I helped to test out the awe hpfp, and it's been running strong for me since I had it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Yes, I'm awe sponsored, but if it was a bad product, I wouldn't be a mind-less robot & just go along with it. Everything these guy's do for me & my crew has been quality http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JLT (May 18, 2008)

anyone do any logs with the APR HPFP STAGE II file and want to share them with me?


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## vwguy13 (Oct 5, 2008)

would it be safe to say that the apr pump is the best hpfp for the GTI mk V? even for big turbos like GT3076 and GT3582R?


_Modified by vwguy13 at 12:58 PM 2-3-2009_


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (JLT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JLT* »_anyone do any logs with the APR HPFP STAGE II file and want to share them with me?

I would like to see logs with the file apr pump with injector duty, rail pressure and boost pressure to make up my mind because as I've been brought to my recent attention. I'm having second thoughts about making this change in fueling.

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
FWIW you should also note that the APR piston diameter isn't as large as your KMD / Autotech piston, thereby pumping less fuel per stroke. 
Dave

As is if this is the case I'll promptly be purchasing another brand new OEM hpfp and following it up with an AWE rebuild over my current KMD setup










_Modified by Noside at 1:13 PM 2-3-2009_


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: (vwguy13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguy13* »_would it be safe to say that the apr pump is the best hpfp for the GTI mk V?

Take a look at this thread to make a more educated decision if the higher price of the APR pump is really worth the money.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4221606
In that thread we make a very good argument as to why we feel the APR approach is inappropriate for the performance aftermarket and unnecessarily inflates the price.


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

Can't wait to see where this goes...


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*

Might I add for once I'm not trying to cause drama or bash APR I am very interested in some hard facts from what I posted. As I was under the assumption that with the APR pump I would be able to richin up my AFR's making a change in my injector duty and be able to hold at 129bar instead of dipping occasionally down to 120ish bar when I start requesting to much boost given the AFR I would like to achieve and hold.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (vwguy13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguy13* »_would it be safe to say that the apr pump is the best hpfp for the GTI mk V? even for big turbos like GT3076 and GT3582R?


I would say yes for several reasons. Here are a few points that I believe puts our design above our competition.
Development with the HPFP starting soon after the 2.0T FSI hit the market. This was at the request of VWoA for use in their R-GTI. After bringing our product to the market, some of our competition simply halted their programs.
We are the only HPFP manufacturer for the 2.0T FSI, besides the OEM distributor, Hitachi, who actually tests the fuel pump before shipping it out to our customers. This even applies to other non VAG HPFP markets using the hitachi design!
We are the only HPFP manufacturer to use a full piston design rather than a stepped piston design, which lesses the chances for side loading and siezure.
A couple of our competitors do not retain the OEM pivoting button on top of the fuel pump, which will increase the chances of side loading and stamping though the cam follower.
We are the only aftermarket HPFP manufacturer that changes not only the piston and bore, but also all of the seals, washers, fastener, and the spring.
The seals have been replaced to lessen any chance of leaking fuel.
The spring has been replaces because the weight of the piston has changed. 
The Highest HP members on this board, and the fastest/quickest 1/4th members on this board use our pump. This includes our stage 3 customers, and the 'do it yourself' customers. Sever have switched to our design after having failures with our competition.
To note on High HP applications. Members with the following turbos use our pump: k03, k04, gt28rs, gt2871, gt3071, gt3076, gt35. The highest application is well over 610 WHP!
Volkswagen of America runs our fuel pump and has since 2006.
Volkswagen of Germany runs our fuel pump on their Scirocco GT24 Race cars
We are a TIER ONE Supplier of our HPFP to SEAT Sport in Europe for their motorsport teams
The Three APR Motorsport vehicles have beat the crap out of our HPFP since day one of competition which started in december of 2007! They have never once changed the HPFP and the spare sits unopened in the trailer.
Each and every pump is built in house at APR. The pump is tested before being rebuilt to ensure it's operating properly as to not replace a part on a car that's unneeded. The pump is then rebuilt, and retested again. The pump is broken in on our test pump machine and verified to ensure there are no problems with the pump before it ever touches a customers car. Finally after these numbers are recorded, the pump is serialized and shipped out to the customer. I can even point you to posts where a Diesel HPFP industry insider has indicated our testing procedure matches much of what goes on in their own operations.
----
Anyways, those are just a few reasons why you can put faith behind our design. Since it's built and tested by us, you have no reason to fear failure upon instillation. You're in good hands!


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thats great and all Arin but I've read these same things over and over and over again and now my only concern and what is pausing my decision to purchase a new APR pump is what I've questioned above as to what Dave had to say in reagrds to that that OEM hpfp rebuilds will deliver more fuel per stroke then your pump.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

You will not have any issues providing enough fueling as we've pushed enough to make over 610whp with our pump.


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_You will not have any issues providing enough fueling as we've pushed enough to make over 610whp with our pump.

So then after installing your pump with my software tuning you'll guarentee that I won't show the same deviation in rail pressure that I am seeing now inbetween 4-5k rpms with a higher boost request and identical injector duty?


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## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Noside)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noside* »_
So then after installing your pump with my software tuning you'll guarentee that I won't show the same deviation in rail pressure that I am seeing now inbetween 4-5k rpms with a higher boost request and identical injector duty?

I think all he said is that, "the proof is in the pudding"


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Noside)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noside* »_
So then after installing your pump with my software tuning you'll guarentee that I won't show the same deviation in rail pressure that I am seeing now inbetween 4-5k rpms with a higher boost request and identical injector duty?

No, I cannot guarantee that. The dips you may be seeing could be related to your HPFP, or it could be related to something else. I do know our pump is capable of supplying enough fuel to surpass any demand you're creating with your current turbo. Even if you go to a larger turbo, I have data to support my claims of our pump supporting your setup. So if it's a problem with your pump, then Yes, but without more data related to your issue, I would not feel comfortable telling you our HPFP will simply solve your problem.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Noside)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noside* »_
So then after installing your pump with my software tuning you'll guarentee that I won't show the same deviation in rail pressure that I am seeing now inbetween 4-5k rpms with a higher boost request and identical injector duty?

how do you know it is your hpfp that is the problem? their are other things that can cause a dip in high pressure fuel even when the ecu has not changed what it is requesting


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Take a look at this thread to make a more educated decision if the higher price of the APR pump is really worth the money.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4221606
In that thread we make a very good argument as to why we feel the APR approach is inappropriate for the performance aftermarket and unnecessarily inflates the price.


Really? Your entire argument for buying your products over ours' is that we do too good of a job making our products?
You are telling an audience of German Engineering fans to buy your products instead because they don't have as much engineering in them as your competitor's product?









You know, thinking about it, you might be right. I'm gonna follow your advice and trade my S4 in on a Kia because a Kia will still get me from point A to point B, just like my Audi.


_Modified by [email protected] at 4:45 PM 2-3-2009_


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
how do you know it is your hpfp that is the problem? their are other things that can cause a dip in high pressure fuel even when the ecu has not changed what it is requesting

Yeah, like ecu intervention dumping fuel or a bad fplv or hp and/or lp sensor. You should log low pressure too just to make sure. I can't tell you the magic number but I'll tell you if your log looks good or not for lp.


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

I am having a hard time biting my tongue with my opinions on AWE tuning... the APR pump is tried tested and true plain and simple... The racing teams, the high HP cars (even non APR tuned) etc etc etc... the list is endless... There is a reason why VW showcased APR tuned cars @ SEMA... I am by no means an APR fanboy (I use REVO) but the quality of their hardware is unparalleled especially when it comes to their fuel pump! I will be investing in one very soon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## panzer 2.3 (May 24, 2008)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*

I would never said a bad word about apr, I know arin there & my friend josh is a apr dealer. I myself am sponsored by AWE, all I can judge them on is my personal dealings with them. They have been good at taking care of me & my crew. The AWE hpfp has not let me down, and I've been running it for a few thousand miles now, it just gives people another option, along with auto-tech,kmd,etc... I've been driving a vw since, I was 16 & now am 33, and I noticed people will always be loyal to there brand. Competition is good for all of us as consumer's & I'm grateful to all the companies developing products for our cars.










_Modified by panzer 2.3 at 6:32 PM 2-3-2009_


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (panzer 2.3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *panzer 2.3* »_I would never said a bad word about apr, I know arin there & my friend josh is a apr dealer. I myself am sponsored by AWE, all I can judge them on is my personal dealings with them. They have been good at taking care of me & my crew. The AWE hpfp has not let me down, and I've been running it for a few thousand miles now, it just gives people another option, along with auto-tech,kmd,etc... I've been driving a vw since, I was 16 & now am 33, and I noticed people will always be loyal to there brand. Competition is good for all of us as consumer's & I'm grateful to all the companies developing products for our cars.


Couldn't agree with you more... more competition the better... APR offers a complete solution... the rest are kits... I myself run the Autotech internals but will be looking for a more bullitproof solution once my bank account refills...







...
I wish I could say positive things about my dealings with AWE but thats life! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwguy13 (Oct 5, 2008)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*

I am very disappointed in the KMD kit i got. The cylinder that holds the piston is 1 mm to big.







I am calling my local apr dealer tomorrow try to get their fuel pump asap, even though im planing to get a 3071 and i am on revo software


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (vwguy13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguy13* »_I am very disappointed in the KMD kit i got. The cylinder that holds the piston is 1 mm to big.







I am calling my local apr dealer tomorrow try to get their fuel pump asap, even though im planing to get a 3071 and i am on revo software

Will work... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_trade my S4 in on a Kia because a Kia will still get me from point A to point B, just like my Audi.

Hey I can get a Kia if you want...make it happen?








After seeing what other fuel pumps did for Jeff it really does not make sense cheaping out on such a critical component in your fueling system. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to APR.


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: HPFP APR or AWE? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_lets put it this way i am no fan boy of any company i tell it as it is, i have owned several different design fuel pump and nothing on the market even comes close to the APR design http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif you will be glad you spent the extra money

Same here I never used the AWE pump so can't say how good it is, but with the APR there is NO guess work they test every pump before it leaves








and when I call a to ask AWE to sell me a small stage 3 part they told me sorry we only have enough for our kits







So I called APR and they were super helpful and shipped the minor peice I needed next day http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yvrnycracer* »_
Couldn't agree with you more... more competition the better... APR offers a complete solution... the rest are kits... I myself run the Autotech internals but will be looking for a more bullitproof solution once my bank account refills...







...
I wish I could say positive things about my dealings with AWE but thats life! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I wish you the best of luck man! 
No seriously, you have had to rebuild your motor from that timing belt snap and I realy would feel bad if something happened to your HPFP or even worse cam.
Had the Autotech on revision 2 a little over a year ago and it failed. Seen several posts of additional failures. 
Seen several posts of KMD pumps failing as new as last week. 
Have not heard of an AWE fail since it's pretty new to the market as well, only time will tell. 
APR...Have been running their pump hard for a full year (10k miles 130bar program) of which (4k miles 122bar program) is on the GT30. Absolutely zero problems, same OEM cam follower that came with the car.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

The customers have spoken. I'm glad we played a part in each of you projects!


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## panzer 2.3 (May 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The customers have spoken. I'm glad we played a part in each of you projects!

Like I said above Arin, I would never talk smack on apr or any other company. Especially if I never used their product. You talked to me at h20 & the mkv forum, and hopefully can tell I'm pretty down to earth. I detect a little tone of smugness in your comment, and it's my hope that people directly invloved with said companies can stay out of the bickering, and leave that to us the masses







First, everyone was down on AWE, because they didn't have fueling, now they have fueling, and people are still bitching. The kit is good IMO, I was one of the first GTI's to test it in the real world enviroment. The gave me the fueling kit & installed it free, and now I just go back to let them download the logs. I've had no troubles now for over 5k. AWE has always been there to lend me a hand, or give my wife/friends proper discounts. My friend Josh at nothing leaves stock is also a apr dealer, and I know you guy's make quality stuff as well. I know for a fact AWE does very well, with just their porsche/audi division. In fact I was happy to just see them on redline tv on the speed channel. They don't even have to work on VW's anymore, but that's where there roots lie, so they continue to develop product/support for the vw market, despite all its drama







They've been around for nearly 20 years, and like to help out all the locals. Competition is good for all of us as consumer's, and my respect to all who help to support the dub scene


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (panzer 2.3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *panzer 2.3* »_ The kit is good IMO, I was one of the first GTI's to test it in the real world enviroment. The gave me the fueling kit & installed it free, and now I just go back to let them download the logs. I've had no troubles now for over 5k. 

I respect your opinion but 5k miles is hardly anything to be basing long-term testing on.
Dave


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## panzer 2.3 (May 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*

Agreed, but there's been people testing it for much longer than me. They have a few company car's running the set-up since it's been created, but all I can go by is my own experience.


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (panzer 2.3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *panzer 2.3* »_
*They don't even have to work on VW's anymore*, but that's where there roots lie, so they continue to develop product/support for the vw market, despite all its drama








 
And that's probably why if you do a quick search on vortex you will find many bad reviews about AWE Tuning. They treat their VW customers like crap. Let's just look at the 200 cell cat issue







(remember this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1)
Maybe it's time they stopped dealing with VW entirely... There's obviously too much money in making Carerra GT straight pipes...







But I will say this... they do make the best sounding exhaust on the market hands down (not interior drone wise... but outside it sounds AMAZING!!) 


_Modified by yvrnycracer at 12:32 PM 2-4-2009_


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2008)

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ I would say yes for several reasons. Here are a few points that I believe puts our design above our competition.
We are the only HPFP manufacturer to use a full piston design rather than a stepped piston design, which lesses the chances for side loading and seizure.
 
A properly designed stepped piston, like ours, will not have any greater chance of side loading than a constant diameter piston. 
If you’re trying to suggest that stepped piston is a flawed design, perhaps you should inspect the fuel pumps in TSI cars. 
When Volkswagen abandoned the problematic Hitachi pumps in favor of a Bosch design, they also moved from a constant diameter piston to a stepped piston.


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We are the only aftermarket HPFP manufacturer that changes not only the piston and bore, but also all of the seals, washers, fastener, and the spring.

We see no reason to replace the factory piston seal or the spring. These items have proven to be very reliable. Replacing these would just add unnecessary costs and hardware. 


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The Highest HP members on this board, and the fastest/quickest 1/4th members on this board use our pump. This includes our stage 3 customers, and the 'do it yourself' customers. Sever have switched to our design after having failures with our competition.
To note on High HP applications. Members with the following turbos use our pump: k03, k04, gt28rs, gt2871, gt3071, gt3076, gt35. The highest application is well over 610 WHP!

What was the A/F ratio on the 610 whp car? Didn’t they have to use methanol injection to compensate for a lean condition?
Your pump is not the only one capable of supporting high hp numbers and to suggest that your pump can support an extreme case of 610 whp without an additional fueling aid is misleading your customers. 
The amount of fuel pressure your pump can sustain is limited by the regulator on the factory fuel rail, just like every other pump on the market. Our pump can reliably provide the maximum amount allowed by the stock fuel rail, which is 130 bar. 


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ Really? Your entire argument for buying your products over ours' is that we do too good of a job making our products?
You are telling an audience of German Engineering fans to buy your products instead because they don't have as much engineering in them as your competitor's product? 
 
Keith, perhaps if you were to go back and re-read the thread I linked you would understand my argument and answer some of the questions I asked regarding your testing. Let me re-state the following for you.
_One of the seven deadly sins of product engineering is known as over-processing. This is when unnecessary resources are put into a design, which in the end only serves to cost the consumer more money. Examples of this would be using titanium where aluminum would be more appropriate, adding costly features that the customer has no need or desire for, or in this case, including parts that can be eliminated with a more thorough design analysis. 
When we started working on our HPFP upgrade we considered several different designs including the use of a constant diameter plunger. We settled on our stepped plunger design because it not only accomplished our goal of increased volume potential but it did so in a way that would give the consumer the best cost to performance ratio. A properly designed stepped plunger allows the use of the factory plunger seal and housing and associated parts and it keeps added inertial forces as well as costs to a minimum. _
You believe that your pump is the product of better engineering because it has more parts. We believe our level of engineering is superior because we are able to accomplish the same results with fewer parts and less cost to the consumer.
Why should someone pay $650-1100 for your pump when it cannot outperform our $400 rebuild? Should people pay an additional $250-700 dollars just so they can have an APR sticker in their engine bay?


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Alex i used water/meth on my car to make up for my lack of low pressure fuel system to make 510whp
as for the car that made 610whp from my understand their was no water/meth involved it was 100% straight upgraded low pressure fuel system, upgraded high pressure fuel system and APR redone injectors


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ 
A properly designed stepped piston, like ours, will not have any greater chance of side loading than a constant diameter piston. 

Except a stepped piston has reduced sealing surface. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
When Volkswagen abandoned the problematic Hitachi pumps in favor of a Bosch design, they also moved from a constant diameter piston to a stepped piston.

 What is the % difference between the piston and the shaft on OEM vs yours? Any seal differences between TSI and FSI?


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
We see no reason to replace the factory piston seal or the spring. These items have proven to be very reliable. Replacing these would just add unnecessary costs and hardware. 
 
Yes they are very reliable for the stock constant diameter piston and stock mass. When you increase the mass, you should adjust the spring rate to accommodate. Even Autotech / KMD tried to minimize the difference in mass from OE to their stepped piston by using a titanium spring retainer. Yours would essentially "need" it more than the AT/KMD pumps. 
While your pump may have the advantage in using the factory pivoting spring retainer, what guarantees do you have that over long-term, it doesn't eat up the follower and cam just as bad as the AT/KMD pumps, due to float?

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
What was the A/F ratio on the 610 whp car? Didn’t they have to use methanol injection to compensate for a lean condition?
Your pump is not the only one capable of supporting high hp numbers and to suggest that your pump can support an extreme case of 610 whp without an additional fueling aid is misleading your customers. 

Aren't you also using a "fueling aid" on your SIII A4 turbo kit? The stock LPFP is incapable of producing the amount of flow required to reach those numbers. I don't see an issue with replacing and upgrading the LPFP to reach 610WHP. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The amount of fuel pressure your pump can sustain is limited by the regulator on the factory fuel rail, just like every other pump on the market. Our pump can reliably provide the maximum amount allowed by the stock fuel rail, which is 130 bar. 

 
You're forgetting that the rail pressure is not static. As the rail is being pressurized by the HPFP, it is also being drained by the injectors. Surely there is greater load on the HPFP when maintaining pressure at 130bar with larger injectors vs stock @ the same injector timing. 


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You believe that your pump is the product of better engineering because it has more parts. We believe our level of engineering is superior because we are able to accomplish the same results with fewer parts and less cost to the consumer.

Only time will tell, but on paper, APR is the better engineered solution. Your is engineered with the intention of also keeping costs down.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Why should someone pay $650-1100 for your pump when it cannot outperform our $400 rebuild? Should people pay an additional $250-700 dollars just so they can have an APR sticker in their engine bay?
 
Alex, why do you charge more for your pump than AT or KMD when you provide fewer replaceable parts? Aside from the piston bore and the piston, everything else is reused from stock. AT/KMD are able to also provide a retainer (albeit not very good one) as well as the other parts for $50-150 less than your product.
Also, how much does AWE charge for hourly labor? Do you guarantee your pumps for lifetime against manufacturer defects? Do you also flow test every pump that your kit is sold with? How can you ensure that every AWE fuel pump kit is performing to its intended specifications? 
For $250 more than your pump, (with the APR pump) they are also getting labor, testing, lifetime guarantee, and those "extra" parts that you deem unnecessary but Hitachi felt so important to have in their patented design. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Dave


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: (crew219)*

Dave, 
If you could stay on topic and even-handedly refer to the engineering procedures I referred to in this thread and the other one, I would be inclined to engage in a discussion with you.
However, your posts are coming across as very condescending and conveniently constructed to evade the topics that have already been covered.


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## awb17x (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

this gave me lolz for tonight.. i know its a year old but lol
APR


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (awb17x)*

You should get a "APR" tramp-stamp tattoo.....


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_I've got the KMD hpfp ($487.00 installed with the REVO Stage II hpfp flash) & everythings cool with my car as far as getting enough fuel to the engine

2 months after I posted this message above ^^^^ my kmd hpfp took a dump. So I went APR.







nuff said


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## stgII GLI (Oct 22, 2008)

I have had my AWE pump installed for a little over 5k miles and have not had any issues. I plan to check the follower every 7.5k-10k to make sure everything remains in working order. From what I understand no matter what pump you are running, including stock, you need to check your follower periodically... There have only been 1 or 2 AWE pumps that have seized and IIRC they were due to the A cam. Both products are nice and as long as you are checking your follower you should have no issues with either one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*FV-QR*

go with the apr pump. I had an autotech and it failed on me...now running apr.


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (LEWXCORE)*

I will also say APR makes the best pump,only because they do,not because I am a ball licker.


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Ya, not many things I'd say this about... but best high pressure fuel pump is APR all day lol.


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## awb17x (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_I will also say APR makes the best pump,only because they do,not because I am a ball licker.


Its a shame your shop hasnt washed away yet.










_Quote, originally posted by *stgII GLI* »_I have had my AWE pump installed for a little over 5k miles and have not had any issues. I plan to check the follower every 7.5k-10k to make sure everything remains in working order. From what I understand no matter what pump you are running, including stock, you need to check your follower periodically... There have only been 1 or 2 AWE pumps that have seized and IIRC they were due to the A cam. Both products are nice and as long as you are checking your follower you should have no issues with either one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Wrong because my pump seized and I have the B cam. ( GIAC said it them selfs when they had my car ) AWE pump failed me and I went APR. and havnt had one problem since.

_Modified by awb17x at 6:28 PM 3-2-2010_


_Modified by awb17x at 6:34 PM 3-2-2010_


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *awb17x* »_

Its a shame your shop hasnt washed away yet.










what's with all the hate in here nowadays? spread the


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (LEWXCORE)*

He's a little girl.........








Don't hate the playa',hate the game.......


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAUDITEK)*

awb17x,here is something for you & APR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsJryWc5XE
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAUDITEK)*

APR.
set it and forget it!
http://blog.****abs.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/ron_pic.jpg


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## stgII GLI (Oct 22, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (awb17x)*


_Quote, originally posted by *awb17x* »_

Wrong because my pump seized and I have the B cam. ( GIAC said it them selfs when they had my car ) AWE pump failed me and I went APR. and havnt had one problem since.




Guess I hadn't heard about that... How many miles were on the pump berofe it failed?


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## awb17x (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (stgII GLI)*

0. The shop installed it... ( well known shop in CA ) and it failed at there shop. AWE blamed my car and told everyone I had a A cam... Which wasn't true.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (awb17x)*


_Quote, originally posted by *awb17x* »_0. The shop installed it... ( well known shop in CA ) and it failed at there shop. AWE blamed my car and told everyone I had a A cam... Which wasn't true.

Kayaker10's AWE pump was also installed by a GIAC dealer (Matrix Integrated) and it also failed.
http://s49.photobucket.com/alb...9.flv


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*

these threads make my decison even easier....APR pump all day


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## stgII GLI (Oct 22, 2008)

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Kayaker10's AWE pump was also installed by a GIAC dealer (Matrix Integrated) and it also failed.



_Quote, originally posted by *awb17x* »_
0. The shop installed it... ( well known shop in CA ) and it failed at there shop. AWE blamed my car and told everyone I had a A cam... Which wasn't true.



When were these pumps installed? I have heard that the first batch of AWE pumps had some manufacturing issues. I ordered my pump over summer and had to wait for them to make a new batch with a different manufacturer. Mabey the failures mentioned were due to the pumps being from an early batch
From AWE's site "The precision of this part required extensive education on our end. We had to find new subcontractors capable of machining to the highest of aerospace tolerance levels. And to our dismay, we found that most subcontractors claiming the ability to machine to this tight of a requirement are in reality unable to do so."


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## awb17x (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: (stgII GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stgII GLI* »_

When were these pumps installed? I have heard that the first batch of AWE pumps had some manufacturing issues. I ordered my pump over summer and had to wait for them to make a new batch with a different manufacturer. Mabey the failures mentioned were due to the pumps being from an early batch
From AWE's site "The precision of this part required extensive education on our end. We had to find new subcontractors capable of machining to the highest of aerospace tolerance levels. And to our dismay, we found that most subcontractors claiming the ability to machine to this tight of a requirement are in reality unable to do so."


I got my pump I wanna say days before it was put out to the public. The shop ( Group5motorsports, anyone in SD knows the shop) The shop that installed it said the machining was bad. So we told Todd over at AWE. His answer was that I had a A cam. ( He also wanted me to send the bad pump back so they could inspect it. Which I did, and never got another pump or that pump back )
Even though that before that my car was at GIAC and they had all ready told him and me that I had a B cam. He wouldn't send another pump because I got a good deal on s3 injectors and the pump ( because the k04 kit that I bought off of them wasnt up to par ) 
I'm glad that they came out and said they messed up. I wont get my money back for the pump because I still saved about 200 bucks for the cost of the injectors but it did give me another bad thing to say about AWE.
Once I changed my pump to APR they have done nothing but take care of me and my car to get it running strong and right. AWE turned there back as they have to a few other customers as we all have seen.


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: (stgII GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stgII GLI* »_

When were these pumps installed? I have heard that the first batch of AWE pumps had some manufacturing issues. I ordered my pump over summer and had to wait for them to make a new batch with a different manufacturer. Mabey the failures mentioned were due to the pumps being from an early batch
From AWE's site "The precision of this part required extensive education on our end. We had to find new subcontractors capable of machining to the highest of aerospace tolerance levels. And to our dismay, we found that most subcontractors claiming the ability to machine to this tight of a requirement are in reality unable to do so."

My pump went on with the AWE K04 full kit. It turned out my pump kit was one of the last ones before they changed suppliers because of qc issues. They traded me my pump for a newer tested one at no cost. It took about a month to diagnose that it was the pump and not injectors, coilpacks, or something else causing the misfires. The piston on the first pump was off by just few micros, just enough to let it leak.
Once the pump issue was resolved, the car has been running perfectly for the last year. 
Awbx17 had a very bad experince with his car and the AWE kit due primarily to install issues and sub par supporting mods.
With the exception of the problem above, I've been a very satisfied AWE customer. Had their full exhaust on my car for three years with no issues (except it was too loud for my taste). Still have their downpipe and cat. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
PS: Had the cam follower inspected last service (two months ago) and it still has most of the coating and looks almost new. I have the B version and only 16k miles. 5k miles with the AWE HPFP.



_Modified by kayaker10 at 1:52 PM 3-4-2010_


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## awb17x (Jun 20, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I bet you I got the same batch or rather same kinda pump you did. I was right all along and they kept telling me it was my car.. O well


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## stgII GLI (Oct 22, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (awb17x)*

awb17x im sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with AWE. I am fortunate enough to say that I have not any issues what so ever with them. 
From reading the info in the above few posts would it be safe to assume that no failures have occured ever since AWE changed manufactures?


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_awb17x,here is something for you & APR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsJryWc5XE










hahahaha you're my hero dude i want to go to hawaii and make fun of these nut swingers all day


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi* »_APR.
set it and forget it!
http://blog.****abs.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/ron_pic.jpg


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## brinkmen (Aug 16, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
> Take a look at this thread to make a more educated decision if the higher price of the APR pump is really worth the money.
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4221606
> In that thread we make a very good argument as to why we feel the APR approach is inappropriate for the performance aftermarket and unnecessarily inflates the price.
> ...


Well said, Keith.

After reading that whole thread Alex @ AWE was quoting there about him making a good point. I'm inclined to agree with Keith, Arin and APR on their products.

After a Stage I APR flash, I am extremely satisfied and I will be going with APR for intake, downpipe (maybe TBE), and HPFP, etc when the time comes and the finances are there. I'm ok with paying a bit more for the highest quality out there in the long run. Keep up the good work APR. :thumbup:


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

AWE stopped selling their HPFP anyways.


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