# 2.5L Done Right. Need some advice



## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Hey friends, 

I have a 2008 Jetta SE. For some background, I have a custom-made cat-back system, APR CAI, just installed the NLS short shift, Spulen Dogbone insert, 42DD Shifter Bushings. I don't want to make a ricey looking tuner and I'm not into the slammed look, although I will get 18" wheels, Hankook tires and high-end coils done next summer. 

My goals are to retain a high-class, sleek look and focus all mods on performance and drivability upgrades.

Here's my question: I'm looking to do headers, down-pipe, highflow cat and SRI. The existing turbo options don't seem to have a lot of bang for the buck, and I have not seen any options for upgraded injectors, cams, compression, etc... so I want to know if those exist and I also need to find a good German tune shop to dial this thing in nicely. I'm in the Chicago area and Dubwerks has been recommended in the past, but they only offer GIAC tuning and I don't want to have a software product pushed on me if it isn't the best. Is anyone out there offering a tailored software solution that will sit and play with everything to make it perfect? Preferably in Chicago or at least in the midwest. Or is this totally unnecessary with a naturally aspirated solution?

Thanks in advance for your feedback!


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

I'd go with this Turbo Kit with this intake manifold using this Software
It wouldn't hurt to read what this guy did


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Okay so from what I gather you are looking for n/a performance and more high end of n/a. That means you really only have two options for software of companies that will work with you, C2 and United Motorsports. Both companies are well versed in the 2.5L and have each performed a number of custom tuning solutions for their customers. 

Currently there is no commercially available cams or high comp software but that doesn't mean that C2 or UM won't be willing to work with you on that as I'm sure they would both be willing to help you (remotely).

SRI is the best bang for buck modification you can do. MAF cars can be revved higher than nonMAF cars can be currently allowing for greater tuning potential. Your options for SRI are C2 (drop in, OE fit), UM/HEP (some modification necessary to your intake), and Integrated Engineering (soon to be released, not OE fit but appears to be closer than UM). All SRI and corresponding tunes will net you around 200whp and vastly increase driveability. Keep in mind you can mix and match SRI and tune and it should all be about the same in the end.

The IE manifold is expected to be the best product due to the immense amount of research they have put into it (in excess of a year). They are also developing a new tensioner pulley to allow us to rev to 7800rpm without popping belts.

Hope that helps!


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

First, thanks for the quick feedback!

I'm not opposed to turbo. It just seems like the bang for the buck is minimal because the boost is 10psi and under from all the standard kits I've seen - and I'm thinking that's a function of the standard compression being a little lower than the more typically turbocharged engines. It also seems like if I play my cards right I may be able to get to 275-300HP while staying N/A'd.

The JDL kits looks good though and they give 4 turbo options without specifying how much boost they each put out...

Anyways, I think the UM and IE SRI units look great, but the C2 being stock drop-in is probably best to complement my current APR Cold Air Intake. Do you think there is any discernible difference between the brands of SRI? Besides looks and hype, anyways?


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

In general I want to say no, not for the general user. That being said, with the IE yet to be placed in the hands of an enthusiast its hard to say. Because many design differences between the 3 will likely affect low end torque, spool up with a turbo, peak hp with turbo, etc. 

Since my car is going to sleep after h2o for winter I'll be ordering the IE SRI sometime over winter for a spring install. I am looking to pursue an n/a build as well in the future and feel that this manifold will meet my wants and needs best.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

I think most turbo kits are limited to no more than 10psi due to the intake manifold. The stock intake system is a pretty big cork for this motor. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok, I would tend to agree that real world specs should essentially be identical. Although the IE design makes me consider trashing the APR Carbonio CAI and going with their full solution too... Do you have a build thread or anything for your car? I'd like to stay on top of any builds using that part.


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

vwluger22 said:


> I think most turbo kits are limited to no more than 10psi due to the intake manifold. The stock intake system is a pretty big cork for this motor.


So with aftermarket SRI, what would be a safe/max boost PSI?


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

kurtsayin said:


> Ok, I would tend to agree that real world specs should essentially be identical. Although the IE design makes me consider trashing the APR Carbonio CAI and going with their full solution too... Do you have a build thread or anything for your car? I'd like to stay on top of any builds using that part.


I don't have a build but I'm sure I'll make one when the time comes to open up the motor. I have an old ABD intake that I've been using for 4 years and will likely try and make this work to avoid buying a new intake.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 4


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

kurtsayin said:


> So with aftermarket SRI, what would be a safe/max boost PSI?


I know thygreyt boosts to 14psi with stock internals using a precision 5858. I believe there were some people boosting to 20 psi on stock internals and pushing 400whp, don't remember what turbo was used. If more power is desired, lower compression pistons could be used. I am not sure if anything needs to be replaced in the bottom end.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

kurtsayin said:


> First, thanks for the quick feedback!
> 
> I'm not opposed to turbo. It just seems like the bang for the buck is minimal because the boost is 10psi and under from all the standard kits I've seen - and I'm thinking that's a function of the standard compression being a little lower than the more typically turbocharged engines. It also seems like if I play my cards right I may be able to get to 275-300HP while staying N/A'd.
> 
> ...



At the moment, making 275-300 with an N/A 2.5 would cost WAY more than turboing it. The highest hp n/a 2.5 is the one NLS/C2 did with ITBs, which was a one off, and it rumored to make around 250whp. They did publish numbers because it was a customers race car.


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

Ah...the NLS ITB car did sound pretty nice


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Sounds great, but was is ITB?


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

kurtsayin said:


> Sounds great, but was is ITB?


Individual throttle bodies. Most cars like ours come with one from the factory. The car NLS built has a throttle body for each individual cylinder. It is expensive and can be hard to tune for but they can provide great results.


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Oh wow. I imagine that would be a fully custom mod then?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Yes very custom. You have to tune each header individually with ITB's. There are 5 headers... 5 tb's or carbs that have to be tuned. Its a whole nother beast, gotta open up head and all kinds of stuff.

There is no blanket tune for something like that and it takes a lot of custom dyno time... very expensive.


Its easier just to slap 4 carbs on an old 16v or 8v and call it a day if you want the "ITB" effect for ****s and grins. Probably cheaper too, including buying a 16v vehicle haha!


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

tchilds said:


> Yes very custom. You have to tune each header individually with ITB's. There are 5 headers... 5 tb's or carbs that have to be tuned. Its a whole nother beast, gotta open up head and all kinds of stuff.
> 
> There is no blanket tune for something like that and it takes a lot of custom dyno time... very expensive.
> 
> ...


Most aftermarket ITBs are tuned as one unit and are not individually actuated. So all the butterfly valves open equally. So its not as crazy to tune as you are saying. Just having a throttle body directly over each cylinder provides a much more even flow to each cylinder. 
And no need to open the head. Bolt on ITBs with an actuator, put a plenum over that, and tune just like you had a SRI, But get a better result because of the air flow. :thumbup:


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## Atömic1 (Jul 30, 2010)

kurtsayin said:


> ... It just seems like the bang for the buck is minimal because the boost is 10psi and under from all the standard kits I've seen...





killerbunny said:


> I know thygreyt boosts to 14psi with stock internals using a precision 5858. I believe there were some people boosting to 20 psi on stock internals and pushing 400whp, don't remember what turbo was used.


Bang for the buck!?! Never mind that, I wont go there... All I can say is you get what you pay for! On the flip side, I can personally say that 400+ hp is possible. On the dyno, I ran 390 hp at 12 psi. United Motorsports, along with Bluewater Performance, states that I can exceed this psi, but I would like to prolong the life, since I do run my car as a daily. UM has tested a car, over a year on 18psi boost using stock internals, and still no issues yet.

In my opinion, I think the turbo was way worth it! However, I do understand staying N/A. Its easier to manage and less technical. In the end, go where YOU want to go with the car. It is yours after all, not the vortex peeps! :laugh:

This is what I am running FYI,

T4 Precision Turbo, 57/59mm
Tial 39mm Wastegate
Forge Diverter Valve
Forge Manual Boost Controller
United Motorsports Short Runner Intake
550cc Fuel Injectors
Cold Air Intake, FMIC & Oil Cooler
3" Eurojet CAT Back Exhaust
Stage 3 United Motorsports Software

Best of luck!

- Pete :beer:


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Atömic said:


> Bang for the buck!?! Never mind that, I wont go there... All I can say is you get what you pay for! On the flip side, I can personally say that 400+ hp is possible. On the dyno, I ran 390 hp at 12 psi. United Motorsports, along with Bluewater Performance, states that I can exceed this psi, but I would like to prolong the life, since I do run my car as a daily. UM has tested a car, over a year on 18psi boost using stock internals, and still no issues yet.
> 
> In my opinion, I think the turbo was way worth it! However, I do understand staying N/A. Its easier to manage and less technical. In the end, go where YOU want to go with the car. It is yours after all, not the vortex peeps! :laugh:
> 
> ...


Pete, I REALLY appreciate the feedback from your first-hand experience. I've worked on cars my whole life (mostly V8 domestic performance cars), but I have never had any experience with turbo-chargers or late-model German cars. I understand the basics of how turbo works, but I don't know nearly enough to make educated decisions on what hardware is necessary vs nice-to-have vs excessive which is really why I asked, and I based my "bang for the buck" comments on looking at C2's kits which seem to suggest 225-250 horsepower was to be expected with something like $5K invested which seems like a bad investment to me...

All of that aside, can you let me know what things led you to build your 2.5 the way you did? Where did you get your parts? Would you do it the same if you were going to do it again? Do you have additions coming up in the future that would be wise to do all at once on a build?

Sorry for all the questions, and I really appreciate you taking the time to answer them if you decide to!


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## Atömic1 (Jul 30, 2010)

kurtsayin said:


> ...All of that aside, can you let me know what things led you to build your 2.5 the way you did? Where did you get your parts? Would you do it the same if you were going to do it again? Do you have additions coming up in the future that would be wise to do all at once on a build?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, and I really appreciate you taking the time to answer them if you decide to!


The reason for the whole project was uniqueness (and of course, power!); however, that has changed with all the kits these days. Mine however, was not a kit. It was pieced together by BW Performance, and UM. It was kind of their first attempt at a oem setup in a daily driver, not a full race car. I worked close with UM and BW Performance... we had some kinks throughout the process, but it was all minor stuff. (Fine tuning, codes that needed re working, yada yada) I have a lot of patience and some of my fellow enthusiasts would have cracked, but I worked through it. As for now, its a common thing in the 2.5 community. More testing has proven the test of time, and the fine tuning is pretty much done!

I would definitely do it again! However, now that I am married, priorities have shifted. For right now, she sits about perfectly as I would have dreamed from day one. Everything that has been done to the car, has happened over a series of 3 years... paid all in cash. There is always things on the wish list. They happen a little slower than before, due to the family.  

The only recommendation I would give for a build of such stature... install an SRI and an oil cooler at the same time as the turbo! I have driven both with and without an SRI, and the car without was very jerky in the power band, and the oil cooler is just my recommendation because it will help with oil temps on those hot days!

Hope the input helps!

- Pete :thumbup:


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks again, Pete! Now I've gotta rework my shopping and "to-do" lists. :thumbup:


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

mldouthi said:


> Most aftermarket ITBs are tuned as one unit and are not individually actuated. So all the butterfly valves open equally. So its not as crazy to tune as you are saying. Just having a throttle body directly over each cylinder provides a much more even flow to each cylinder.
> And no need to open the head. Bolt on ITBs with an actuator, put a plenum over that, and tune just like you had a SRI, But get a better result because of the air flow. :thumbup:


The whole point of ITB's is each cylinder is tuned individually... My SRI can run on a stock tune. If I chop and pop some motorcycle ITB's on my 5 cylinder I garuntee its not just about adjusting the butterfly valves to get it running.

By theory I should be able to use an SRI plenum and just some silicone hose and ITB's to get an ITB'd 5 cylinder... no lol :banghead:

Doesn't matter anyway. You're talking a few grand on the dyno, and at least 2-3 maybe 5 grand in hardware... plus head work for a few grand... to make what nitrous and a SRI or a turbo and SRI can easily make. 

The only reason to stay all motor is if you're racing and can't increase displacement or add forced induction... but its all about hp/weight now w/most clubs as they're shying away from elitist ideas like this.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

tchilds said:


> The whole point of ITB's is each cylinder is tuned individually... My SRI can run on a stock tune. If I chop and pop some motorcycle ITB's on my 5 cylinder I garuntee its not just about adjusting the butterfly valves to get it running.
> 
> By theory I should be able to use an SRI plenum and just some silicone hose and ITB's to get an ITB'd 5 cylinder... no lol :banghead:
> 
> ...


I sent you a PM as to not clutter this thread with ITB talk.eace:


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Making progress and hoping for more feedback. I'll be buying a Eurojet SRI off a buddy who's parting out his 2.5, so I'll get that for a good deal. My engine set up will be cold air intake to SRI, stock internals down through the stock cat, and then out a 2.25" straight pipe with a magnaflow muffler and tips.

My question is, while I save up for turbo, what would be the best tune for this set up? C2, UM, Unitronic, GIAC??


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

UM seems to have the best turbo tune for the 2.5.


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

HollisJoy said:


> UM seems to have the best turbo tune for the 2.5.


So in the meantime, while I'm N/A with an SRI, should I start with UM so I can get a discount upgrade to turbo when I get that far?


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

kurtsayin said:


> So in the meantime, while I'm N/A with an SRI, should I start with UM so I can get a discount upgrade to turbo when I get that far?


Yes. Start with UM, be happy.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

we did the only ITB 2.5L on oem ecu that I know of, with the great help of C2motorsports, we didn't get 250whp but well over 200 and not far from 250 
as far as I know its the highest NA hp 2.5L out. 
BUT.........
its cost a TON to build one off, there is no kit, took months to do and get right. it was built for racing specs for a certain class where we reached the rules limit with this setup and everything else that was bolted to the motor. he now is in the top 1 to 2 of his class in hill climbs every race, before he was mid pack. so all in all he got what he was looking for but had a bill to show for it 

you can break the 200HP mark with SRI, tune, shorty header, exhaust, and a few other bits. maybe 202-207? but not much more then that from what we have seen. no matter the tune company.

turbo is the best way to break the 280-300 mark and do it safely on a stock motor. add SRI= more power. do rods and pistons for lower ratio=more power. just depends on where you want to be and how much you wish to spend.

we would be happy to help you out if you want to build something


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks for all the info, NLS!

Sounds like that ITB setup would have been sweet. Been researching it a bit myself, but as cool as having a wicked ITB N/A 2.5 would be, it seems turbo is more reasonable. In the short term, I'm going to have my SRI hooked up, CAI, Cat-back exhaust, NLS Short Shift with 42DD bushings, SPULEN Dogbone mount insert, Tein Lowering Springs and Hotchkis rear sway bar.

I'll let that be the set up until I get bored again and then I'm going to have to go turbo. Why do all the high end VW tuners have to be so far away??? :banghead:


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

kurtsayin said:


> Thanks for all the info, NLS!
> 
> Sounds like that ITB setup would have been sweet. Been researching it a bit myself, but as cool as having a wicked ITB N/A 2.5 would be, it seems turbo is more reasonable. In the short term, I'm going to have my SRI hooked up, CAI, Cat-back exhaust, NLS Short Shift with 42DD bushings, SPULEN Dogbone mount insert, Tein Lowering Springs and Hotchkis rear sway bar.
> 
> I'll let that be the set up until I get bored again and then I'm going to have to go turbo. Why do all the high end VW tuners have to be so far away??? :banghead:



Look at dieselgeek.com. They have an amazing short shifter for the 2.5, 5 speed and 6 speed swaps. It replaces all the rubber bushings with spherical, also it replaces the plastic linkage clamps with billet metal clamps fastened by 5 allen bolts each. It is side to side and front to back adjustable, full billet, and made in Texas, USA.

I recently upgraded my engine mounts with full billet replacements. The shift linkage works much better and consistently now. It feels great.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

the NLS short shifter with added 42DD bushings in half the cost. and feels factory but with a 40% shortend throw.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Oh yes can't argue which is cheaper for sure. The diesel geek is expensive because its the best with the most bells whistles and options. Since its adjustable front to back and side to side it is quite factory feeling if that's what you prefer too.

I like the feel of the more direct linkage than the plastic clamps which flex and wear out. The weighted shift lever isn't necessary if you have a good enough linkage to feel smooth anyway. Like I added above, I like it a lot better now that my engine isn't flopping around. The weighted shift linkage was nice but I'm glad I got the dieselgeek now that my mounts are all replaced because it feels omg butter smooth now.


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## kurtsayin (Mar 16, 2013)

I've driven both DG and NLS shifters. Both are great. NLS is 1/2 the price, so that's what I went with. I do love the way the DG one looks under the hood, although I actually don't like the reduced side-to-side motion. 

All preference and price when it comes to bolt on trans mods.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeh you get what you pay for. Billet is nice and shiny or w/e if you just look at it that way 

I look at it as I payed to be able to adjust my linkage and to upgrade the plastic clamps. The diesel geek is nice because once its clamped down it ain't moving again until you tell it to.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

tchilds said:


> The diesel geek is expensive because its the best with the most bells whistles and options. Since its adjustable front to back and side to side it is quite factory feeling if that's what you prefer too..


How this myth keeps on propagating I do not understand. I talk to Jim semi-frequently, and he doesn't understand where it even came from.

The Dieselgeek shifter has a set 30% reduction, and there's no adjusting it whatsoever. It's got no counterweight either, so it feels RADICALLY different than the OE style shifters like what Josh out at NLS and Nuespeed both make.

The only advantage Josh's shifter has is the ease of installation. Unless you get a side to side reduction from Forge Motorsports, you don't even have to adjust the bushings on most installs. It's weighted too, so it feels much more like the stock shifter --but that's what I don't like about it. If it were ~20% reduction so that it felt like the OEM Audi 5MT shift, then it'd be a different story, but it's 40% reduction. 

40% reduction, no side to side reduction while leaving the POS factory end links that you'll have to drill out and install even more bushings into is a massive PITA. The OE style shifters don't get rid of the points of failure in the factory shifter either, and they don't remove enough slop for my taste.

If you're going to upgrade the shifter, there are two ways to go about it:

1) 
Retain the OEM counterweight
retrofit the MK5 rabbit metal side to side brackets and end-links if you're on an MK6
42DD/IE endlink bushing set
IE shift tower bushing set
Stainless clutch line
Dogbone insert

Optional: VF Short shifter (it's the only one that replaces the cheap ass internal parts.)

2)
Dieselgeek SS kit
IE shift tower bushings
SS clutch line
Dogbone insert

There's too much reduction on this setup to mess with the VF internal shifter. I'm investigating having a full length internal shifter built to replace the cheap ass internal systems, because they are the only weak link left in the chain since I went this route.

Once you do a full shifter upgrade, you've spent more going the first route than the second. The first route feels more like a stock car, but those damn endlinks will eventually crap out and they need periodic adjustments. A dieselgeek setup is a real PITA, but it's a real PITA once and it's not going to fail for you or the next 3 owners of your car IMHO.

@Josh, no hard feelings. I like the vast majority of your products (I own a few), and if I was loaded, I'd hire you to build me an ITB system. This is my personal opinion, and personally just don't care for your 0A4/02J-B shifter lever.


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