# do i need an intercooler when supercharging?



## STmaven (Apr 28, 2003)

I was thinking about getting the stage 2 supercharger from VF engineering for my VR6 12v. I was wondering if I would need an intercooler. If so which brands should I get or its it worth to get the stage 3 kit? thanks...


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (STmaven)*

Need? what i've read...is "no" because it doesn't have the same "hot" air as a turbo
but do you want one? u should want one if u can get it hooked up...cuz it increase efficiency...compressed air does heat up...and a G60 does have an IC from the factory
how much does it help? i think the sc pro's in here can answer that


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (GoKart_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoKart_16v* »_Need? what i've read...is "no" because it doesn't have the same "hot" air as a turbo

Absolutely incorrect. Anytime you compress air, you heat it up. You've seen a pressure cooker, right?
An Eaton/Magnusson Mp62 supercharger adds ~180F above ambient on a 10psi setup: http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/mp62g2.jpg
So, outlet temps are around 250F on a nice day. But, the ability to have torque/boost down in the rev range were a turbocharger simply doesn't is an acceptable trade-off.


_Modified by bripab007 at 4:10 PM 12-22-2006_


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (STmaven)*


_Quote, originally posted by *STmaven* »_I was thinking about getting the stage 2 supercharger from VF engineering for my VR6 12v. I was wondering if I would need an intercooler. If so which brands should I get or its it worth to get the stage 3 kit? thanks...

VF stg II kit for the 12V doesn't come with one. Could the kit perform better with one, yes.
Stg III VF kit does come with one.....I ran stg II for nearly a year in HOT Vegas weather....no issues...when ambients went over 100F, then the car would experience a serious loss of power, as intake temps were in the 140F range.....stg III pushing 4lbs more boost w/intercooler, on similar days, would not see intake temps over 100F...so yes it helps and works better, but at that boost level; it's a cost/hp issue.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (LSinLV)*

Any time you can decrease intake temps, you will be able to make more power http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

If you arn't too Keen on doing the piping and what not for a IC, then use water injection


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## spooln6 (May 27, 2005)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (STmaven)*

just go and get it also look into the c2 kit stage one is good whp 254 228 i hit on stage 1 now i am at 14 psi and i am doing a fmic and a short runnerwhen i get her out again.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (spooln6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spooln6* »_just go and get it also look into the c2 kit stage one is good whp 254 228 i hit on stage 1 now i am at 14 psi and i am doing a fmic and a short runnerwhen i get her out again.









Save money and get more room to grow.....go turbo the first time out.......and avoid making the switch when you get bored of the belt slipping 
Dyno post from my friend Mike 9 psi NON innercooled......

did 4 pulls, best was 264.4whp and 239.9wtq
not bad considering nonintercooled, no methanol, and only 9.1 psi of boost. 
heat soak showed up during the tests, but each test went to a higher rpm, so you don't notice it. 
once the methanol leak is fixed, i will do another one. 
current set up....
t3/to4e (kinetic/turbonetics)
kinetic manifold
30# inj
C2 software
NO INTERCOOLER
3" catless exhaust with (only) a magnaflo muffler
9.1 psi with MBC
Link to the whole thing.....he is running more boost with Alcohol injection at the moment....still not innercooled
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2848161
Just my 2 cents.....But I'm a turbo person...go figure








Dave


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## spooln6 (May 27, 2005)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
Save money and get more room to grow.....go turbo the first time out.......and avoid making the switch when you get bored of the belt slipping 
Dyno post from my friend Mike 9 psi NON innercooled......
did 4 pulls, best was 264.4whp and 239.9wtq
not bad considering nonintercooled, no methanol, and only 9.1 psi of boost. 
Dave

I have 0% slipping i hold 14 psi all day in summer 15 psi winter with the 2.5 pulley as for my vrs I hit 10 whp less but was at only 8 psi NON intercooled with a cat and a 2.5 exhaust . I am sure I am at the 300 + whp mark now.



_Modified by spooln6 at 9:37 AM 12-27-2006_


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## J.Q. Public (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (spooln6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spooln6* »_
I am sure I am at the 300 + whp mark now.



How are you sure you are at 300+? You have dyno charts? You have time slips? Have you even entered a friendly closed course competition with another mk3 that has dynoed 300+?
The only thing you can be sure about is you made 254whp at 8psi and now you are running more. 
Get her on the dyno again before you make any more horsepower claims.


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## spooln6 (May 27, 2005)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (J.Q. Public)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J.Q. Public* »_

How are you sure you are at 300+? You have dyno charts? You have time slips? Have you even entered a friendly closed course competition with another mk3 that has dynoed 300+?
The only thing you can be sure about is you made 254whp at 8psi and now you are running more. 
Get her on the dyno again before you make any more horsepower claims.

First of all time slips. They have nothing to do with the dyno at all also closed course compitition. They have nothing to do with to a dyno eather. Now do they. I dont think so. Some peole have 400 whp and hit like 13 some hit 12 (I just looked and found times to the whp in the arcives) As I stated I said I did I say I yeah I did delive that I am hitting 300 whp And I did race a sti and had beating it they are 300 hp not whp but 300 hp now that has nothing to do with what I think My car is hitting on the dyno. So think b 4 you talk . In April I will poast my New Numbers. As i had stated I think that i will hit 300 310 whp. Now again that is just what I think. It may not but i think it will just what I think not what the all mighty J.Q.Public thinks just little old me




_Modified by spooln6 at 2:27 PM 12-27-2006_


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## J.Q. Public (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (spooln6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spooln6* »_
First of all time slips. They have nothing to do with the dyno at all also closed course compitition. They have nothing to do with to a dyno eather. Now do they. I dont think so. Some peole have 400 whp and hit like 13 some hit 12 (I just looked and found times to the whp in the arcives) As I stated I said I did I say I yeah I did delive that I am hitting 300 + whp And I did race a sti and had beating it they are 300 hp not whp but 300 hp now that has nothing to do with what I think My car is hitting on the dyno. So think b 4 you talk . In April I will poast my New Numbers. As i had stated I think that i will hit 300 310 whp. Now again that is just what I think. It may not but i think it will just what I think not what the all mighty J.Q.Public thinks just little old me

_Modified by spooln6 at 10:06 AM 12-27-2006_


I'm just trying to stop the dissemination of inaccurate information. I'm sure you hope you have over 300whp, but lets be honest it's a rarified club.
AFAIK there are < 5 members that I know of 
Supercharged-Jetta -352whp - Runs 11.98 in his corrado
Scooter98144 -310whp 
LSinLV - 343whp
vw1320 - ???whp Never dynoed as far as I know but has run [email protected] in a mk3 
and that's all I know of.
I guess come april we can add you to the list though since you are sure you have it.

Don't take this as supercharger bashing, I love em, have had a few myself. But lets be realistic, I used to whoop up on sti's and even evo's with ~ 248whp. It doesn't take 300 to beat them, especially on a closed course that doesn't include a standing start.

And in regards to the dyno not having anything to do withe timeslips, you are right. There is only 1 number that counts on the dyno and that's the Air Fuel.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (J.Q. Public)*

well, lets get some dyno charts to claim some power, 300whp+ would destroy an sti, since my 263whp does http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## spooln6 (May 27, 2005)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (GTijoejoe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTijoejoe* »_well, lets get some dyno charts to claim some power, 300whp+ would destroy an sti, since my 263whp does http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I will like i said i am hope n to be at the 300 whp. I hope and i have smoked a sti with my 254. Back on topic. I think you schould just do the intercooler it will help you in the summer time. The stage one c2 kit puts down the same as the vf stage 2 just to give you something to think about. 


_Modified by spooln6 at 9:24 AM 12-28-2006_


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (J.Q. Public)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J.Q. Public* »_

I'm just trying to stop the dissemination of inaccurate information. I'm sure you hope you have over 300whp, but lets be honest it's a rarified club.
AFAIK there are < 5 members that I know of 
Supercharged-Jetta -352whp - Runs 11.98 in his corrado
Scooter98144 -310whp 
*LSinLV - 343whp*
vw1320 - ???whp Never dynoed as far as I know but has run [email protected] in a mk3 
and that's all I know of.
I guess come april we can add you to the list though since you are sure you have it.

Don't take this as supercharger bashing, I love em, have had a few myself. But lets be realistic, I used to whoop up on sti's and even evo's with ~ 248whp. It doesn't take 300 to beat them, especially on a closed course that doesn't include a standing start.

And in regards to the dyno not having anything to do withe timeslips, you are right. There is only 1 number that counts on the dyno and that's the Air Fuel.


that may be a bit low....







I may have some good news..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_
Anytime you compress air, you heat it up. You've seen a pressure cooker, right?


Not to sound nitpicky, but a pressure cooker is a good example of an increase in pressure due to an increase in temperature, not the other way around...


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## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (spooln6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spooln6* »_ The stage one c2 kit puts down the same as the vr stage 2 . 

might as well call Vf-E by their right names if you are going to try and call them out. That and the c2 kit sucks. makes good power? sure. the bracket design sucks and you will throw a belt every 5000 miles or so.


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (xpalendocious)*

Putting an intercooler is always better, it lowers combustion temperatures and the chance to detonation or pre-ignition, where the ECU will pull timing.
You will also gain more power if the max boost pressure stays the same at the intake manifold, but that's the draw back of the charger, putting an intercooler will lower the boost pressure by 1 to 3 psi, due to flow restriction.
That's where the turbo wins again from the charger, the drop in psi can easily be gained (as long you stay in the upper efficiency range of the compressor map) by placing the reference for the waste gate post the intercooler, or by upping the spring tension.


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## spooln6 (May 27, 2005)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
might as well call Vf-E by their right names if you are going to try and call them out. That and the c2 kit sucks. makes good power? sure. the bracket design sucks and you will throw a belt every 5000 miles or so.


what are you talking about man. So you are telling me every 5000 miles i will throw a belt







Since when did you become the sc god. The mount is good. But hey iI guess you would know better then me I only have the kit on my car. Also their right name is Vf- Engineering If you wanna de a d*ck. I think they booth are good kits just stating they c2 stage 1 has the same whp as their stage 2. Thats all I am saying. My hp is 292.1 on my c2 stage 1. C2 said there kit was 280. If you dont wanna answer the question in hand that STmaven ask's y put in your 2 cents. 
Dang LSinLV i just read about you test on the vf website WOW man that looks good man love it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by spooln6 at 9:54 AM 12-28-2006_


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (spooln6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spooln6* »_

what are you talking about man. So you are telling me every 5000 miles i will throw a belt







Since when did you become the sc god. The mount is good. But hey iI guess you would know better then me I only have the kit on my car. Also their right name is Vf- Engineering If you wanna de a d*ck. I think they booth are good kits just stating they c2 stage 1 has the same whp as their stage 2. Thats all I am saying. My hp is 292.1 on my c2 stage 1. C2 said there kit was 280. If you dont wanna answer the question in hand that STmaven ask's y put in your 2 cents. 


to clearify...most of you are comparing a VFE kit to a C2 kit...they are somewhat apples to oranges.
VF Engineering uses the smaller charger V9
C2 uses the larger charger V1/V2
the big difference between the 2 is size, and due to this, the V1/V2 will flow more VOLUME of pressurized air at a specific rpm over the V9. The V9 is slightly more efficient, and will boost to a higher max psi; but the V1/V2 unit will produce the greater volume of air at the same rpm.


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## Dubbed_Monk (Feb 18, 2004)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (LSinLV)*

Anyone have any experience with vf stage3 with the sidemount intercooler.


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (Dubbed_Monk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dubbed_Monk* »_Anyone have any experience with vf stage3 with the sidemount intercooler.


user "thirdstrike" (Rob) a local stgIII MKIII http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif but I think he just replaced it with an FMIC, and WAI.


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## puebla (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (LSinLV)*

























Here is one of my projects, 93 VW VR6, Stage 2 VFE s/c, 034 Standalone ECU, FMIC with a fully built Euro motor and a Quaiffe. 
Thoughts: Should of went c2 turbo. VFE s/c pulley slips. Intercooler works great. Most people on vwvortex don't know sh****t.


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## Elite_Vdub (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (hazw8st)*

Anyways, back to the question at hand, before everyones cars were better than everyone elses. You do not need an intercooler to run a supercharger or a turbo setup, it is not a necessity. Would I recommend running one, yes I would. Good rule of thumb is usually 6-9hp gain per psi your running, and obviously this all depends on your setup and what you running, numbers can be bigger or smaller, but you get the picture. Cold air=big gains. If its money your worried about, you can always supercharge it now and intercool it later.


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## STmaven (Apr 28, 2003)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (Elite_Vdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Elite_Vdub* »_Anyways, back to the question at hand, before everyones cars were better than everyone elses. You do not need an intercooler to run a supercharger or a turbo setup, it is not a necessity. Would I recommend running one, yes I would. Good rule of thumb is usually 6-9hp gain per psi your running, and obviously this all depends on your setup and what you running, numbers can be bigger or smaller, but you get the picture. Cold air=big gains. If its money your worried about, you can always supercharge it now and intercool it later.

thanks all for the advise.


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## Elite_Vdub (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (STmaven)*

No problem.


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (jmaddocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jmaddocks* »_Not to sound nitpicky, but a pressure cooker is a good example of an increase in pressure due to an increase in temperature, not the other way around...

Ha! So true...my bad. Okay, so it may have been an incorrect example, but hopefully my point still got across


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_
but hopefully my point still got across









its partly correct...not trying to nitpick u either, but there is no way a charger, in most application on a vw, can get as hot as a turbo...where an IC is a huge neccessity...

here's why u always want an ic with a turbo


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## Elite_Vdub (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: do i need an intercooler when supercharging? (GoKart_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoKart_16v* »_
here's why u always want an ic with a turbo









Yeah, superchargers dont do that^^^ But can still use a cooler intake none the less


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