# 16V MS ITB conversion (lotta pics)



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Yet another one!
The victim, in all it's 1.8 8V glory:








91 Jetta GL
Autotech F/R swaybars, all poly bushing, konis/intrax springs, strut bars, etc, etc, handles great, goes slow.
Click pics for larger version.
16V dropped in:

1000 GSX-R ITBs (1999 I think)


AEB fuel rail w/ 4bar FPR from my Audi A4:

Bent the tabs so no welding was required:

Had to trim them as well:

Test fitting:

Almost done:




I need to redo the connectors on the wiring harness, everything is just butt crimped on until I make sure everything is good, then I'll shorten the harness up where need be.
Universal Harness:

All bundled up:

Laying out the MS pieces:

All done - and it works too!


For the MS, I completely ripped out the old digi harness, used the old connectors, I've got all my notes around here somewhere with how I hooked it up.
I used vwralley's fuel and ignition tables to start with (thanks!) Fired right up after I fixed a bad starter to battery cable. Still need to do the fine tuning though.


_Modified by xr4tic at 3:09 AM 4-11-2007_


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: 16V MS ITB conversion (xr4tic)*

how do you plan on making the TB's idle evenly with the tabs bent like that? 
it wasn't that hard to get them like this:








it took all of 15 minutes with a TIG to do all 3 of them.
You could also do it with a MIG, but it doesn't look as clean, and you have to grind off most of the bead that you laid down.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Hmmm....I guess I'll just have to use the screws that are on each throttle body?
I don't have a welder, and if I did, I suck at welding. This took all of 15mins with a bench vise and a hammer. Ok, maybe 20mins, but the end result is the same
I stole the idea from:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2972944
Better pic of what needs to be done.


_Modified by xr4tic at 5:28 PM 4-11-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

make sure to sync them in an you will be fine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
looks good so far


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

IMO it just looks kind of ghetto


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

yeah, I still need to sync them, need to find a cheap way to do it, I don't want to spend $130 for a carb tune, and only use it once or twice
I had high expectations for how the ITBs would sound, and it exceeded them, I love the sound.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (kenny_blankenship)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kenny_blankenship* »_IMO it just looks kind of ghetto

yeah, if you say so. I mean, it's so visible and everything.
If I had tried welding, it would definitely look ghetto.


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_
yeah, if you say so. I mean, it's so visible and everything.
If I had tried welding, it would definitely look ghetto.


getting something done clean involves taking time on the most seemingly mundane items. I know you aren't trying to shave the engine bay or anything along those lines, but IMO it seems like cutting corners, regardless of if you do or don't know how to weld.
just my 2 cents


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (kenny_blankenship)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kenny_blankenship* »_
getting something done clean involves taking time on the most seemingly mundane items. I know you aren't trying to shave the engine bay or anything along those lines, but IMO it seems like cutting corners, regardless of if you do or don't know how to weld.
just my 2 cents

It's 2 different ways to get the same effect. Seriously, there is nothing wrong with bending a tab vs. extending it via welding. It's just as clean, and still works like factory.


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## cotntale (Oct 4, 2005)

thats a sweet upgrade.... are you running a cam ???


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## Deuce34 (Sep 16, 2003)

*Re: (cotntale)*

nice work!! that's going to be a powerful lump!!


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (Deuce34)*

why are you guys messing with the throttle adjustments? i didn't have to? they fit on perfect....
you guys pull them apart for spacing or what?


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## DigiFaNt (Aug 28, 2001)

all man I got milk i nmy pants. I cant wait to see more pix. Im trying to get my 16v running right first then Im goin got get MS and start my project on ITB fury!! in my soon to be DMC Rocco. at 88 miles per hour we are going to see some serious ****!!!


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## instg8r (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

can we get a video clip of this...WITH sound







?


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## ordubskee (Jan 18, 2007)

i understand that the gsxr itb's dont match up to the 8v...or do they???
do u jus cut them or can u take them apart???
im wondering because im thinkin of doin a simillar set up on my 16v


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (cotntale)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cotntale* »_thats a sweet upgrade.... are you running a cam ???

Nope, no cam, bone stock 16V with ~80K miles on it. Only mod is the Bosal Header. I wanted to get the base tune down and make sure everything works before I started messing with modifications.
I've been too busy with work lately to make any further progress, so it might be a couple weeks before I get a chance to work on it again.


_Modified by xr4tic at 9:25 PM 4-16-2007_


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## jetta-the-hut (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

It seems I am also missing a few steps!
First off how did you attach the itb's to the head, did you cut the lower manifold and use silicone hoses to attach the itbs to the mani?
Why do you have to bend the tabs? or Weld?
Also you show the fuel rail but dont show how it attaches to the itbs and how the lines are connected?
Sorry about so many questions I'm just a little lost!


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (jetta-the-hut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jetta-the-hut* »_It seems I am also missing a few steps!
First off how did you attach the itb's to the head, did you cut the lower manifold and use silicone hoses to attach the itbs to the mani?
Why do you have to bend the tabs? or Weld?
Also you show the fuel rail but dont show how it attaches to the itbs and how the lines are connected?
Sorry about so many questions I'm just a little lost!

I cut the stock manifold, leaving 2-3inches for 3" long 2" dia. silicone couplers to clamp onto.
The tabs have to be extended/bent, because the ITBs are spaced apart to match the cylinder spacing, if they aren't extended, the linkages wont work.
I had tabs welded to the stock manifold, then tapped and bolted the fuel rail to it. I bought some rubber fuel line (5/8" I think) and ran it to the existing fuel lines (it was a digifant car) Not sure if CIS has those lines or not


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## jetta-the-hut (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

Ok that helps I am still gathering info on these set-ups I have never seen one or worked on one. 
Do the silicone hoses hold it pretty good or does the fuel rail attached to the manifold help keep it in place?
Did you have to fab up the throttle body cable or just attach it to the arm?
looks good buy the way, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.


_Modified by jetta-the-hut at 8:56 PM 4-18-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

The silicone hose seems to hold the ITBs pretty good, I can't remember where I ordered the hoses from though, I got 5 3" long couplers, and 10 lined clamps (the proper ones that wont gouge into the silicone) as a package, I'll have to see if I can find the receipt.
I think I'll run a brace from the ITBs to the valve cover just to be safe though.
I used the stock throttle cable, I had to cut up the stock arm to bolt it on, I'm not sure if I used the 16V or the 8V arm, both were laying around.


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## jetta-the-hut (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

what injectors did you get for this set-up? 
would it be worth the 84 bucks to get the maniflod bracket the guy machined in the for sale section. 
I am not trying to be nosey here but without the ms set-up how much did all this run you? 
How much H.P. do you think you picked up? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

for now, stock digifant injectors, I think they'll be enough for now, especially since they're running at 4 bar.
what bracket? I dont feel like searching the for-sale section








No idea on HP, it's a bone stock 16V.. Considering this is replacing a worn-out 1.8V, I'll be happy no matter


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## jetta-the-hut (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

digi injectors wow! 
would have never thought they could handle it but way cool, that saves me some money! 
Thanks for all the help mine is going on a 9A 2.0l 16v engine!


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Digifant injectors are probably close to the edge if you run them at 3 bar, but should be ok at 4 bar, assuming the stock fuel pump can keep up








They do work good for initial tuning though, you can always upgrade later


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## jetta-the-hut (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

I have a 4 bar porsche 944 FPR but I need to find a another fuel rail I have a custom fuel rail from Brahn Brenner cause I'm building my engine to run on digi-2 and then going to convert to MS and then ITB's! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

you should update this post xr4tic


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I just drove it 180 miles from my parents place to my house, cost me $140 to do so.
$125 for the hotel room when it broke down halfway home, and $15 for the replacement alternator belt.
The tuning is rough, but it does drive


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

oh crap, dont scare me like that! why did it break? was it the way you have the alt. set up right now or was the belt old? you should give me a call because i have a couple questions that have yet to be answered, i pmed it to you


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_
The tuning is rough, but it does drive


anything done to your engine other than the MS and ITB's? vwralley and digital-k both have decent maps for a stock engine. If you have some mods, i can send you my current MSQ. Fueling is pretty much done on it just needs some cold start tweaking and pulling more timing when i get a knock light built. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

bone stock motor except for MS, ITBs, and a header.
I tried VWRalley's MSQ and a couple others, but it was way off for me, waaay rich, and I'm not sure why.
I don't know why the belt broke, it was brand new, and the alignment is good. It may have been too tight/loose, or possibly the belt was too wide. I didn't pay too much attention at the time, but I think the old belt was slightly wider.
I do have a spare belt in the trunk now though


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

hmm weird, and you are running on Alpha-N w/ their maps correct?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

nope, normal MAP, but I'm going to try Hybrid Alpha-N.
I thought VWRalley was running MAP?
I'll have to give DigitalK's msq a try with alpha-N


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

you might be right on his .. i forget anymore haha
but you def. should be running Alpha-n w/ ITB's, i had a lot of problems w/ tuning at first trying to run MAP and i switched to Alpha-N and Digital-K's map and tuned it and it was pretty easy to tune, had the fuel 80% tuned w/ a narrow band in about an hour of road tuning. spent another hour w/ the wideband and it is prolly 98% tuned. just need to get it on a highway where i can do WOT in 5th at like 100MPH.. haha 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (saddest6day66)*

what's alpha-n?


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gli_ryan* »_what's alpha-n?

it is the other way that MS can go by to know how much fuel/spark is required at whatever time. instead of using Map and RPM, it uses TPS and RPM. this is almost neccesary on a engine that has little vaccum at all time.. such as a itb'ed car or a car w/ very large cams it.
for instance when i was first trying to tune my car on another 16v base map i started w/ i was only using a 1/3 of the map because my car wasn't giving near enough of a map/vaccum signal to use the majority of the fuel/spark map. 

sorry i suck at describing things..










_Modified by saddest6day66 at 8:56 AM 5-18-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

how can you get it to do that?

i just pm'd you
EDIT: i just looked through the megamanual and found it


_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:26 AM 5-18-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Well, I think I found out why my belt broke, the alternator bearings are shot, and the pulley moves around. New alternator should be in today.
I switched over to Hybrid Alpha-N, seems to be running a lot better, but I haven't had a chance to actually tune it at all yet


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_Well, I think I found out why my belt broke, the alternator bearings are shot, and the pulley moves around. New alternator should be in today.
I switched over to Hybrid Alpha-N, seems to be running a lot better, but I haven't had a chance to actually tune it at all yet

good deal any progress is good progress! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

so whats happening with your set up now? did you work on getting your couplings fixed so they don't pulsate?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

too busy with work lately to get much done.
The used 16V header I installed turned out to have a hole in it, I just recently pulled it out to have it welded up, but havent put it back in.
I got a couple days off next week, hope to do some work on it again.


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