# Another ITB buildup thread...ABA/16V/ABF/ITB/MSnS etc........................



## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

I've been putting this setup together for quite a while now. 
I used my spare head to fab everything up on it at work in 
my free time.
Started out with a set of 98-99 GSXR 750 throttles (46mm)
and spaced them out equal to the 16V runners. 
Chopped a lower 16V mani and made the inlets beveled
with a die grinder to help smooth out the airflow. Not good
to have a flat stepped lip for the air to run into right before 
it goes in the head.
Used 2" couplers between the throttles and the manifold.
I used the Suzuki fuel rail for the vacuum rail by drilling and 
tapping the injector holes for 3/8" barb fittings in both the 
throttles and the rail and then used short sections of hose 
with crimp clamps for the connection. Had to cut the rail in 
middle and add in a small section of pipe to make up the 
difference in length since the throttles had been spaced 
out and the rail wasn't long enough. The outlet of the rail 
is -6AN, so I used a pushloc fitting for the vacuum line.
I used a BBM 1.8t fuel rail and used long bolts to secure it to 
the 16V manifold by drilling and tapping for the bolts. I'll be 
running 380cc injectors @ 3.5bar. The fuel system is returnless
and is regulated back at the filter by the pump.
I'm using BMW E46 M3 velocity stacks (got them for free)
with no filters for now til I figure some way to filter them.
I still haven't finished installing all this or gotten it running 
yet, but it's really close. I still need to plumb in my vacuum tree/booster etc. Still need to lengthen my TPS and air temp
sensor wiring and possibly mount the idle control setup 
under the manifold.
I'm running TT 288 cams/cam gear with the INA lightweight 
lifters with a ported and polished 1.8L head on a OBDI ABA 
bottom end with oem ABF pistons for a 10.5:1 comp. ratio 
for now. Running a Eurosport header and 2.25" TT exhaust
Initially got the motor built up last winter and running on the 
old CIS-Motronic with a 50mm manifold and Autotech Sport cams.
A few months later, I did the Megasquirt swap running 
distributorless off the stock ABA crank sensor. Now it will all be
up to tuning the setup for the ITB's. I used some of Rev Jerrys' settings from his Alpha-N tune thread to help me in the right 
direction.
here's a few pics of the setup. I'ts not fully done yet or even in
a running state, but hopefully next week it will be running!


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Another ITB buildup thread...ABA/16V/ABF/ITB/MSnS etc........................ (evil-e)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Looking forward to see how this turns out. Looks real good so far.


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## Rabbit Soup (May 2, 2007)

wowowow gorgeous







very interested to see where this goes!


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (Rabbit Soup)*

that'ssick. 
do you have any close up pics of your make shift vac box/injector rail?
afriend of mine had me install some gsxr throttles on to his honda. he had his maniforld welded somewhere and they put JBweld in the injector ports. i never thought to make a vac box using the injector rail. 
it runs but he loses booster vac if he hits the pedal too many times in a 5sec period. it does come back. were running vac off some very small vac ports in the itb's and those lines are connected to a half cigar shaped vac junction from a 5.0.


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## 83Coupe (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: (WolfzGangVR6)*

Looks good







, keep the details coming.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (83Coupe)*

I don't have any pics of the vacuum manifold yet, but I'll probably take some more pics as it progresses. I may end up having to run a vacuum resivoir for the brakes anyway since the 288 deg. cams don't make much vacuum to begin with.
I got the idea about using those ports for the vacuum from working on BMWs' M cars. They use ITB's from the factory on M3's going back to the E30 (the US didn't get the real E36 M3 engine). They run a fairly large vacuum rail that is common to all the throttles and then goes to the booster. They also plumb their idle control valve directly into the vacuum manifold as well. I might try and run my idle valve to the rail as well to help at cold start-not sure yet.


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_I don't have any pics of the vacuum manifold yet, but I'll probably take some more pics as it progresses. I may end up having to run a vacuum resivoir for the brakes anyway since the 288 deg. cams don't make much vacuum to begin with.
I got the idea about using those ports for the vacuum from working on BMWs' M cars. They use ITB's from the factory on M3's going back to the E30 (the US didn't get the real E36 M3 engine). *They run a fairly large vacuum rail that is common to all the throttles and then goes to the booster. They also plumb their idle control valve directly into the vacuum manifold as well*. I might try and run my idle valve to the rail as well to help at cold start-not sure yet.


that was my idea also. and taping in the iac is a great idea at the vac box.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

awesome work! looks the biz!


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Another ITB buildup thread...ABA/16V/ABF/ITB/MSnS etc........................ (evil-e)*

*It's ALIVE!!!!!!!!!* 
Got it running tonight, but have to go home. Sounds AMAZING though!


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## 16vDigiGti (Aug 23, 2005)

are you using waste spark or a dizzy?


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## vee_dubb_gti (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (16vDigiGti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16vDigiGti* »_are you using waste spark or a dizzy?

waste spark







the coil is on the strut tower. 
looks sweet! your shop looks very cool too!


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (vee_dubb_gti)*

Happy New Year! Anyone else have a headache today?








Yup, wasted spark. Coil pack is from a MINI Cooper (same as a Neon).
Yeah, the shop is nice but unfortunatley it's not mine. That's where I work. I'm lucky enough that they let me work on my own stuff in there though.
Actually was pretty amazed how quickly I got it to start last night. It would crank and fire briefly and was popping out the intake along with some flames at times when it would die. I had to add alot of fuel to my VE table to get it to run. Once it was running though, it revved like crazy and sounded wicked! I need to get the fuel map sorted and get my idle speed down closer to 1K and then synch the throttles. My shop foreman has a brand new 4 carb mercury synch setup he's letting me borrow, so it should be fairly easy.
I've never used a carb synch tool before, on the BMW's you use the diagnostic equipment to move the throttles into a preset position and then you measure with a feeler gauge between the stops and the levers to set them.
Once I get it set up I'll try and post a video of it running.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (evil-e)*

Looks good bro! Glad to see everything coming together.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_Happy New Year! Anyone else have a headache today?








Yup, wasted spark. Coil pack is from a MINI Cooper (same as a Neon).
Yeah, the shop is nice but unfortunatley it's not mine. That's where I work. I'm lucky enough that they let me work on my own stuff in there though.
Actually was pretty amazed how quickly I got it to start last night. It would crank and fire briefly and was popping out the intake along with some flames at times when it would die. *I had to add alot of fuel to my VE table to get it to run.* Once it was running though, it revved like crazy and sounded wicked! I need to get the fuel map sorted and get my idle speed down closer to 1K and then synch the throttles. My shop foreman has a brand new 4 carb mercury synch setup he's letting me borrow, so it should be fairly easy.
I've never used a carb synch tool before, on the BMW's you use the diagnostic equipment to move the throttles into a preset position and then you measure with a feeler gauge between the stops and the levers to set them.
Once I get it set up I'll try and post a video of it running.


what type of management are you running, map or maf?
is it possible to run the itb's with your vac box, some sort of iac(maybe obd1 vr6?) and the plates closed? shouldn't you be able to bring the idle down then? its like making a standalone manifold. one side of the iac goes to the vac box and the other to a tiny filter. 


_Modified by WolfzGangVR6 at 10:59 AM 1-1-2008_


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (WolfzGangVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfzGangVR6* »_
what type of management are you running, map or maf?
is it possible to run the itb's with your vac box, some sort of iac(maybe obd1 vr6?) and the plates closed? shouldn't you be able to bring the idle down then? its like making a standalone manifold. one side of the iac goes to the vac box and the other to a tiny filter. 

_Modified by WolfzGangVR6 at 10:59 AM 1-1-2008_

Neither. With 288's and throttle bodies, you generate such an inconsistent vac signal, it's really really tough to tune.
Alpha-N http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (Fast929)*

I'm running Mega Squirt. I was probably one of the last people that got a working ecu from Patatron before he fell off the face of the earth. It's distributorless running off the ABA crank sensor.
I'm running this on Alpha-N so the whole map/maf deal is out the window as Fast929 said. Alpha-N uses throttle position and rpm to generate the fuel/spark tables instead of Map and Rpm. I should be able to get the idle down close to 1K with this setup.
I have the beginnings of what could be an airbox someday although I love the look of the throttles/velocity stacks. If I can figure out some way to run some sort of filter on these, then I prob. won't build an airbox.
Fast929- have you gotten your head back yet or your cams etc.?


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (WolfzGangVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfzGangVR6* »_
what type of management are you running, map or maf?
is it possible to run the itb's with your vac box, some sort of iac(maybe obd1 vr6?) and the plates closed? shouldn't you be able to bring the idle down then? its like making a standalone manifold. one side of the iac goes to the vac box and the other to a tiny filter. 

_Modified by WolfzGangVR6 at 10:59 AM 1-1-2008_

My ecu is setup for an early style aux. air valve from a MKI rabbit. It's set to get power from the ecu via a relay to slowly start closing it. With the Mega Squirt ecu, you can set the coolant temp. you want to cut power to the valve. It's resting position when cold is open so when you start the engine, it's getting extra air through the valve. You're supposed to mount it to the engine so that once you're up to operating temp and say you run into the store and shut your engine off, it doesn't make the valve open back up since it's not mounted to something hot. The valve will close from either having power applied to it or from heat. The suzuki fuel rail had another -6 fitting on it, but I cut it off and drilled and tapped it for 3/8" NPT. Right now it's got a brass plug in it, but I could very easily just put a barbed fitting in it and run the aux. air valve to it via a piece of hose. We'll see. This is not a daily driver anymore, so it may not matter.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (evil-e)*

Heads not done yet. Should be any time now though.
Cam's and lifters will get ordered here shortly once I get my funds squared from the holidays


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Well, last night after work, I fired it up in the shop and had a whole crowd of people standing around looking/listening to it. I was getting the engine up to temp so I could make sure my cooling fan was working correctly, standing in front of car revving up the engine a few times and the digi coolant flange on the drivers side of the head exploded into about 4 pieces and instantaneously emptied all the coolant out all over the crowd and my engine!!







.
Just got back from the local parts store with 2 digi coolant flanges (I'll keep an extra in the glove box) and a 16V Rocco throttle cable. It's about a foot longer than the stock 16V one and should give me just enough length for my setup.


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## silver-16v (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (evil-e)*

what spark plug wires are you running?


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

nice!


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## atrujillo1991 (May 24, 2006)

*Re: (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_Well, last night after work, I fired it up in the shop and had a whole crowd of people standing around looking/listening to it. I was getting the engine up to temp so I could make sure my cooling fan was working correctly, standing in front of car revving up the engine a few times and the digi coolant flange on the drivers side of the head exploded into about 4 pieces and instantaneously emptied all the coolant out all over the crowd and my engine!!







.
Just got back from the local parts store with 2 digi coolant flanges (I'll keep an extra in the glove box) and a 16V Rocco throttle cable. It's about a foot longer than the stock 16V one and should give me just enough length for my setup.

Damn, that burns!









I'm the funniest person alive.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (atrujillo1991)*

do you happen to have some pics of the manifold itself?
I am wanting to do the same thing


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (silver-16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *silver-16v* »_what spark plug wires are you running?

I made them. I bought a 25' roll of MSD super conductor wire and a box of HEI style boots/crimp connectors. Disassembled several MINI spark plug wires for the plug ends and uncrimped the spark plug lead ends to use on my wires.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (evil-e)*

So, no manifold pics then?


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oopseyesharted* »_do you happen to have some pics of the manifold itself?
I am wanting to do the same thing

You mean the "chopped lower manifold"? I don't have any pics of just the manifold. There are a few of these ITB build threads on here with several pics of different ways people have done this. Some people have welded on tubes to the mani, but I didn't. 

Spent almost 2 hours last night fixing the broken coolant flange and then bleeding the damn cooling system







. Finally got all the air out and made sure everything was good to go again.
Also installed a Rocco 16V throttle cable last night since my stock 16V one wasn't long enough for my cable setup. It's close to a foot longer than the stock one if anyone was wondering and installs into the firewall/throttle pedal just like the stock one does. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
This morning, put together the 4 cyl. carb synch. tool my shop foreman has had brand new in a box in his office for several years. I put it on the engine and began messing with the throttle stops, but only had about 10 mins. before work started to do anything. Needless to say, I didn't get anything accomplished.
Does anyone with 98-99 GSXR 750 throttles know if the small flathead screws on the bottoms of each throttle are the "fine tuning" idle adjustment or not? I was able to get all 4 cyls. within about an inch or two of mercury on the vacuum scale this morning, but didn't have a chance to try turning any of the screws on the bottom yet.
I'm hoping to get my aux. air valve installed as this thing is a real PITA to start and keep running when it's cold. My neighbors are going to hate me on the days I drive this thing to work in the mornings!!! It's loud.







.
Hoping to get the air valve installed and get the throttles all synched up so I can actually start tuning it. I was really wishing I had gotten the throttles done this morning today because it wasn't raining this afternoon. It's been raining for quite some time up here in the Pacific North Wet lately and I don't want to be out driving this thing around w/ no filters trying to tune on it's maiden ITB voyage.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oopseyesharted* »_So, no manifold pics then?

Are you wanting to see the inside where I ground it down to a sharp edge or the whole manifold???
If I end up taking these off, I'll take some pics of it. I don't have any taken of it at the moment though.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (evil-e)*

It is cool. I didnt know you just cut the intake manifold.
Do you remember how much intake manifold was left after you cut it?


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

There was close to an inch maybe inch and a half. I cut it as far away from the flange as possible before it started turning up sharply. After it was cut, I ground the tops slightly so they would have less of an upturned lip if that makes any sense. I used a die grinder with an abrasive disc to smooth out the casting marks and make to surface even so it would seal with a rubber hose coupler attatched to it.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (evil-e)*

Sweet.
thanks for the info man.
Now where is my hack saw.....lmao


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

how much power are you looking to make with this set up? i basically am doing the same set up. i have 10.8-1 though and 268's, i used 1.8t injectors, and i have gixxer 1000 tb's though. im hopin to see 170whp when all said and done, i still haven't got a management system yet.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubbLuvv* »_how much power are you looking to make with this set up? i basically am doing the same set up. i have 10.8-1 though and 268's, i used 1.8t injectors, and i have gixxer 1000 tb's though. im hopin to see 170whp when all said and done, i still haven't got a management system yet.

Properly tuned, 170 should be a realistic number for you.


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oopseyesharted* »_
Properly tuned, 170 should be a realistic number for you.

thats what i was going for. obviously i'd like to have more power plus im spending a lot of cash but its whatever, it will be fun, fairly reliable power. i might spray the car though. im not sure, maybe do a 120 shot. who knows


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubbLuvv* »_
thats what i was going for. obviously i'd like to have more power plus im spending a lot of cash but its whatever, it will be fun, fairly reliable power. i might spray the car though. im not sure, maybe do a 120 shot. who knows









If you wanna make more power run the 2 liter 16v bottom and 1.8 16v head.
what are you doing for exhaust?


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

i already have the 2.0 head with around 2,000 into it. im not gonna do a 1.8 head now, its too late. i know that they get better air flow but i was working with what i originally had. and besides im not tryin to make that much power, if so i woulda done a 99mm eurospec crank and turbo'd it. but thats the next project







but as far as exhaust, i'm gonna go with TT race headers and then probably see this place in Brockton called Lou's Custom Exhaust and probably have them do a side exit set up. not really sure about the exhaust yet. im thinking side exit will be a little too droney and get old real quick. any suggestions?


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubbLuvv* »_how much power are you looking to make with this set up? i basically am doing the same set up. i have 10.8-1 though and 268's, i used 1.8t injectors, and i have gixxer 1000 tb's though. im hopin to see 170whp when all said and done, i still haven't got a management system yet.

I'm hoping for over 180 whp on pump gas. The earlier GSXR 750 throttles and the 1000's are the same size throttle bodies.
XKROMX said with alot of compression on race gas with TT 288 hydro cams he made 196whp. I'm only running 10.5:1 comp. and on pump gas, also with slightly smaller throttles than he was running, so I'm hoping to hit close to 180-185 whp. I made close to 150 whp with Autotech Sports and a 50mm manifold/Passat throttle body, so with the bigger cams and ITB's I'm hoping for alot more. If not, I'll get some of the Wossner pistons from Bildon along with some lighter I beam Scat rods. 

This morning, I started putting my aux. air valve on. Mounted it to the block under the throttle bodies so it's semi hidden. Installed a barb fitting into the vacuum rail and ran a hose under throttles to the valve. I'm hoping this will help out with the hard cold starting and maybe piss off the neighbors a little less in the early mornings







.


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_
I'm hoping for over 180 whp on pump gas. The earlier GSXR 750 throttles and the 1000's are the same size throttle bodies.
XKROMX said with alot of compression on race gas with TT 288 hydro cams he made 196whp. I'm only running 10.5:1 comp. and on pump gas, also with slightly smaller throttles than he was running, so I'm hoping to hit close to 180-185 whp. I made close to 150 whp with Autotech Sports and a 50mm manifold/Passat throttle body, so with the bigger cams and ITB's I'm hoping for alot more. If not, I'll get some of the Wossner pistons from Bildon along with some lighter I beam Scat rods. 


yeah...sounds good, i'll be daily driving mine. if the 268's arn't what i like, i'll probably go up in size but i dont want to go as big as 288's


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*

will 288s make it that uncomfortable to drive daily?
Mine will not be driven daily but i dont want an idle like my old big bolck chevy....lol


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

288's don't make much vacuum at idle, so you're not going to be very happy with idle quality if it's a daily driver. With ITB's, you can get the idle down lower and still have it fairly smooth. Once my engine is up to temp and it's idling (without having tuned it very well at all yet), it is idling smoothly at around 1100-1200. Once I go below that, it starts to get a little lumpy, but it may get smoother once everything is dialed in better.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (evil-e)*

you wouldnt happen to have a passengers side motor mount laying around would you?
I am going to be pulling the 16v out of my parts jetta and i wanna get the mounts on it and bolted in the gti this weekend.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

Nope.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (evil-e)*

damn it.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

big cams can idle fine, its all in the management








stock cars are not tuned for the fuel demands of a large cam, so when you change that an do not make the needed adjustments to the fueling, you get a lumpy idle.
in the rally car we had 276's idling as good as stock with only minor work in that area http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_big cams can idle fine, its all in the management








stock cars are not tuned for the fuel demands of a large cam, so when you change that an do not make the needed adjustments to the fueling, you get a lumpy idle.
in the rally car we had 276's idling as good as stock with only minor work in that area http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

very good info there


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

are you going to be running some sort of filter over your stacks or just open to the elements?


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*

This project is being put on hold. I'm parting out the car...


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (evil-e)*

yet another person scraping itb's








seriosly thought, sounds like coulb be a personal finacial issue. so good luck man


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*

from what I've been told, STOCK 1.8 heads are better than a STOCK 2.0 head. That all goes out the window once they've been ported. At that point its all up to who ports it. Saying that a ported 2.0 head is the same as a ported 1.8 head. Correct me if I'm wrong though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif So, I wouldn't worry too much about your head. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_from what I've been told, STOCK 1.8 heads are better than a STOCK 2.0 head. That all goes out the window once they've been ported. At that point its all up to who ports it. Saying that a ported 2.0 head is the same as a ported 1.8 head. Correct me if I'm wrong though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif So, I wouldn't worry too much about your head. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yeah im not stressin it cuz the with flowbench testing it's a hell of a lot better then a stock 1.8 and a 2.0 so either way im gettin crazy air flow


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_yet another person scraping itb's








seriosly thought, sounds like coulb be a personal finacial issue. so good luck man









Not scrapping the ITB's. I'm keeping the drivetrain including the Mega Squirt etc. and all the "good" parts off the car. It's a time/space problem for me right now. I don't have the space for the car or a place to keep it and don't have the time to work on it. I work 50+ hours a week and have a wife and 3 kids that need my full attention when I'm not at work. I'll be getting another MKII to put all this back into in the hopefully not too distant future. We're working on getting a house, so when that happens and I've got some space to work on it it'll be a go.


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## DubbLuvv (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_
Not scrapping the ITB's. I'm keeping the drivetrain including the Mega Squirt etc. and all the "good" parts off the car. It's a time/space problem for me right now. I don't have the space for the car or a place to keep it and don't have the time to work on it. I work 50+ hours a week and have a wife and 3 kids that need my full attention when I'm not at work. I'll be getting another MKII to put all this back into in the hopefully not too distant future. We're working on getting a house, so when that happens and I've got some space to work on it it'll be a go.









yeah...im sellin my car too, but keeping the drive train...except im 19 with 0 wife and 0 kids, and i dont plan on buying a house cuz i still live with mom and dad http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif BUT...i plan on selling my mk2 gti because i want some more money to put into the motor cuz i still need to finish the transmission and SEM. also i think i want to go with a mk1


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## dmitry88 (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: (DubbLuvv)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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