# The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters



## Qest (Jan 1, 2006)

The Phaeton was supposedly designed based on 10 crazy criteria handed down to the engineers by Piech. Surely by now we can find most if not all of them as they seemed to leak a different one to each news organization.
Here's the one Jeremy Clarkson got "You should be able to drive the Phaeton all day at 186 mph when it's 122 degrees outside and the air conditioning must be able to maintain a temperature in the car of 71.6 degrees." Presumably Piech said 300 kilometers per hour and 50 and 22 degrees Celsius respectively.
What are the others?
If someone doesn't have a comprehensive response, I'll edit this first post to add them as we find them.


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## mattsimis (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters (Qest)*

I think the Top Gear one (Clarkson is a presenter, not the whole show!) was driving less than 300kph, more like 270?
I think one was virtually silent and invisible Air Con vents. I have no source for this, just something I read ages back.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters (Qest)*

As Matt notes the air conditioner was to be as draftless as possible. In other words it was to be designed to maintain comfort under extreme conditions without occupants enduring the blast of fan-driven air. 
I think another had to do with frame rigidity. Phaetons are unbelievably rigid so they should maintain their tightness over time and miles. In addition this also leads to greater safety.
The last that I have heard had to do with hood vibration or better yet, lack thereof. Piech wanted no hood "hop" despite the Phaeton's high speed capability.
All my info has been gleaned from reading about Phaetons in secondary sources and could be incorrect.


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## Reflect (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters (Jxander)*

most of those sound about right. I would add what I thin without sources but from owning one:
The cabin noise or less road noise, so the interior and double glass, rigid solid chassis and the whole steel instead of aluminum.
maybe the hiding vents, thats a thing that always wow passangers in my car. like wow do that again.
and also a power everything and smart features, power folding mirror, rear view mirror power, teh headrest and rear headrest power automatic, vents, and line can go on for a while.


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## Pdxphaeton (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters (Reflect)*

I think one parameter that was added (call it the eleventh parameter), was that a Phaeton owner shouldn't have to go a single day without explaining to at least three people that it's not an Audi or a new larger Passat.


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters (Qest)*

My guess is that the parameter Jeremy Clarkson announced was the ONLY one that could be understood by someone who didn't make his living designing cars.
I could never get excited about Newton-meter torsional rigidity, shear modulus and Ö deflections; I don't suppose many Phaeton drivers do.
Personal choice: it's the superb, seamless transmission and unobtrusive four-wheel drive that floats my boat. It gives me complete confidence that the car will cope as well as any car could over snowy or slippery roads. It simply refuses to do anything odd or unexpected, making it the complete gentleman (what is that in German)


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters (Aristoteles)*

Ö was meant to be the ancient Greek character Theta, as in the angle of twist in solid mechanics. Something was lost in translation. Something always is...


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

_Quote »_It gives me complete confidence that the car will cope as well as any car could over snowy or slippery roads.

Had to drive from Folkestone to London last Sunday when all that snow hit the South. Luckily, I'd been skiing and had snow tyres on - there was something peversely amusing about coming to a hill in Clapham with a gaggle of BMWs and Mercs sliding about at the bottom of it and driving straight past them and up the hill








Interestingly, the ESP didn't flash once on the journey - 4Motion plus snow tyres was pretty impressive.
Harry


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

I gave the throttle a small prod on a patch of ice/snow and the ESP lit up, but I only have summer tyres. 
Watching the TV news footage it was obvious that front wheel drive cars were getting more traction that the RWD (I can hang the tail out) poseurs.

_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_
Interestingly, the ESP didn't flash once on the journey - 4Motion plus snow tyres was pretty impressive.


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## koliberk (Mar 10, 2012)

Found some facts on web:

Ferdinand Piech, then chairman of Volkswagen Group wanted his engineers to create a car that would overwhelmingly surpass the German prestige market leaders, Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

- The W12 engine allowed for the packaging of the world's ONLY 4WD 12 cylinder luxury car

- the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300 kilometres per hour (186 mph) with an exterior temperature of 50 °C (122 °F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22 °C (72 °F)

- Functionality designed down to the smallest detail combined with a modern look underscores the unique ambience of the vehicle.

- if you are sitting comfortably you will arrive relaxed at your destination. The Phaeton's 18-way adjustable front seats feature electrically operated longitudinal, height, backrest and seat rake adjustment, together with a built-in air conditioning and massage function, to ensure just that.

- The complete infotainment system is of course fully computer-controlled. Its logical layout makes it highly intuitive and so very user-friendly.

- Everything in the Phaeton is designed to make the driver's and passengers' journey as pleasurable as possible. For the Phaeton's interior there are exclusive wood trim options, all finished in perfect workmanship. The 18-way adjustable seats feature the finest leather trim, such as "Vienna Classic Style". The Phaeton is fitted with green-tinted heat-insulating two-layer safety glass, for example, to keep all ambient noise out of the vehicle.

- The decision to release the Phaeton was, in part, a response to Mercedes' decision to compete directly with Volkswagen in the European marketplace with the low-cost A-Class.

- Phaeton is packed with cool features like draft-less four-zone climate control air conditioning system, air compressor suspension system, standard four motion four wheel drive option and an option to select the preferred ride type.

- Numerous new technical features were designed into all versions of the Phaeton, such as "Front Assist" stopping distance reduction, "Side Assist" for peripheral monitoring, bi-xenon headlamps with LED daytime running lamps and a navigation system now with DVD support [this is for new facelift]

- The innovative "Climatronic" air conditioning system, with four-zone temperature control, can be adjusted separately for each seating position and responds autonomously to changes in the direction of the sun and air humidity, meaning all settings are kept constantly at the desired levels.

- Maximum safety. Complete protection is something all the Phaeton's occupants can rely on. Its construction, featuring the use of 16 different metals and special plastics, offers the very best protection in terms of stability and crash safety, and unmatched levels of torsional rigidity.

- Flat hood as possible to avoid high speed vibration

- Another requirement was that the car should possess torsional rigidity of 37,000 N·m/degree.

_



On the subject of torsional rigidity, the car with the highest torsional rigidity in the world today, is the Rolls-Royce Phantom at 40,500 Nm/degree.
Second comes the VW Phaeton at 37,000 Nm/degree.
The Mazda RX-8 has a super high torsional rigidity of 30,000 Nm/degree, as good as a Porsche 911.
The Lamborghini Gallardo is 23,000 Nm/degree.
The Ferrari 360 and the new Saab 9-3 are at 20,000 Nm/degree.
A VW Golf is around 18,000 Nm/degree.

Click to expand...

_Not sure if all can be accepted as "The 10 Secret Phaeton Design Parameters"


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## Bedlam (Aug 10, 2012)

As I remember the story from Top Gear, after Piech revealed the 10 secret requirements, half of the engineers said it couldn't be done and immediately walked out of the room.

Many of things listed are nice features, but I doubt they would seem so impossible to an engineer. Hood that doesn't vibrate, modern look, nice UI, 4-zone climate control... these don't seem "walk out of the room impossible" to me.

Maybe some of the things mentioned in this thread are on the "list of 10". For example, the rigidity could be a contender. But it also wouldn't surprise me if all or most of the other 9 are still secret.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

> Many of things listed are nice features, but I doubt they would seem so impossible to an engineer. Hood that doesn't vibrate, modern look, nice UI, 4-zone climate control... these don't seem "walk out of the room impossible" to me.


To quote Nevil Shute "An engineer is a man who can do for five shillings what any fool can do for a pound." None of the above are impossible, but to accomplish some of them within budgetary constraints is an entirely different proposition.

I would also imagine that a lot of the requirements wouldn't make any sense to most people (like maximum permitted rates of jounce in the suspension components etc...)

Harry


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## koliberk (Mar 10, 2012)

Prince Ludwig said:


> None of the above are impossible, but to accomplish some of them within budgetary constraints is an entirely different proposition.


I heard, that this car was over budget. Other story says that Phaeton was really heavy, so they need to reduce it weight by replacing some bodywork attachments to aluminium and plastic ones


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## koliberk (Mar 10, 2012)

*The list: Torsional Rigidity*

I found this on web:


```
Bugatti Veyron				60.000 Nm/deg			
Rolls-Royce Phantom			40.500 Nm/deg			
VW Phaeton				37.000 Nm/deg			
Ferrari F50:				34.600 Nm/deg			
Porsche 911 Carrera Type 997		33.000 Nm/deg			
VW Passat (2006)			32.400 Nm/deg			
BMW Z4 Coupe				32.000 Nm/deg			
Alfa 159				31.400 Nm/deg			
Mazda Rx-8				30.000 Nm/deg			
Aston Martin Vanquish	 		28.500 Nm/deg			
Koenigsegg				28.100 Nm/deg			
Koenigsegg CC-8				28.100 Nm/deg			
Land rover Freelander 2			28.000 Nm/deg			
Ford GT: 				27.100 Nm/deg			
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe			27.000 Nm/deg			
Pagani Zonda F				27.000 Nm/deg			
Porsche 911 Turbo 996			27.000 Nm/deg			
Pagani Zonda C12 S 			26.300 Nm/deg			
Porsche Carrera GT			26,000 Nm/deg			
Audi A8					25.000 Nm/deg			
Golf V GTI				25.000 Nm/deg			
Mini (2003)				24.500 Nm/deg			
BMW X5 (2004)				23.100 Nm/deg			
Lambo Gallardo				23.000 Nm/deg			
BMW E90					22.500 Nm/deg			
Jaguar X-Type Sedan 			22.000 Nm/deg			
Ford Mustang 2005 			21.000 Nm/deg			
Mercedes SL - with top up 		21.000 Nm/deg			
Saab 9-3 Sportcombi			21.000 Nm/deg			
Chrysler Crossfire 			20.140 Nm/deg			
Lambo Murcielago 			20.000 Nm/deg			
Volvo S60 				20.000 Nm/deg			
Ford Focus 3d 				19.600 Nm/deg			
Audi TT Coupe 				19.000 Nm/deg			
Bugatti EB110				19.000 Nm/deg			
Volvo S80				18.600 Nm/deg			
BMW E46 Sedan (w/o folding seats) 	18.000 Nm/deg			
Maserati QP				18.000 nm/deg			
Volkswagen Fox				17.941 Nm/deg			
Ford Focus 5d 				17.900 Nm/deg			
Ford GT40 MkI 				17.000 Nm/deg			
Mercedes SL - with top down 		17.000 Nm/deg			
Jaguar X-Type Estate 			16.319 Nm/deg			
Ford Mustang 2003 			16.000 Nm/deg			
Aston Martin DB9 Convertible		15.500 Nm/deg			
Mazda Rx-7 ~				15.000 Nm/deg			
BMW Z4 Roadster				14.500 Nm/deg			
BMW E46 Wagon (w/folding seats) 	14.000 Nm/deg			
McLaren F1 				13.500 Nm/deg			
Porsche 911 Turbo (2000) 		13.500 Nm/deg			
BMW E46 Sedan (w/folding seats) 	13.000 Nm/deg			
Porsche 959 				12.900 Nm/deg			
Chevrolet Cobalt			12.700 Nm/deg (28 Hz)			
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats)		12.500 Nm/deg			
Opel Astra				12.000 Nm/deg			
Audi A2					11.900 Nm/deg			
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 Convertible	11.600 Nm/deg			
Lotus Elise 111s 			11.000 Nm/deg			
BMW E36 Touring				10.900 Nm/deg			
BMW E46 Convertible 			10.500 Nm/deg			
Lotus Elise S2 Exige (2004)		10.500 Nm/deg			
Audi TT					10.000 Nm/deg (22Hz)			
Lotus Elise 				10.000 Nm/deg			
Renault Sport Spider 			10.000 Nm/deg			
Ford Mustang Convertible (2005) 	9.500 Nm/deg			
Chevrolet Corvette C5 			9.100 Nm/deg			
Lotus Elan GRP body 			8.900 Nm/deg			
Ferrari 360 Spider 			8.500 Nm/deg			
Lotus Elan				7.900 Nm/deg			
Dodge Viper Coupe 			7.600 Nm/deg			
Chrysler Durango 			6,800 Nm/deg			
Lotus Esprit SE Turbo 			5.850 Nm/deg			
BMW E36 Z3 				5.600 Nm/deg			
Ford Mustang Convertible (2003) 	4.800 Nm/deg			
Lamborghini Countach 			2.600 Nm/deg			
Ferrari 430				supposedly 20% higher than 360			
Ferrari 360				1.474 kgm/degree (bending: 1,032 kg/mm)			
Ferrari 355				1.024 kgm/degree (bending: 727 kg/mm)
```


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## Boosted2003! (Mar 10, 2009)

koliberk said:


> I found this on web:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



Funny to see the 4 of the top 6 are part of VAG.


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## tomasty (May 24, 2011)

Boosted2003! said:


> Funny to see the 4 of the top 6 are part of VAG.


And funny to see that 5 of the top 6 are german cars.


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## docwra (Aug 24, 2017)

Worth a resurrection after 5 years, anyone ever find out any more of these? Id put money on one being that the interior of the windows never mists, theres an insane amount of tech packaged into the car just for this purpose.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

*Breaks.*

Somewhere i read that the Phaeton should be able to break from 300 km/h to zero under 100 meters.
\Wiken


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