# Upgrading Audio - Project Intro and Question



## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

I for one am disappointed that the Fender audio system was not made available below the Premium model. Given a background in Mobile Electronics I have decided to take this on myself. Here is the breakdown of what I am adding to start with:

JL Audio Fix86 http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_45951_JL_Audio_Fix-86.aspx
Pioneer TS-WX70DA Powered Subwoofer http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_47754_Pioneer_TS-WX70DA.aspx
Pioneer GM-D1004 http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_40059_Pioneer_GM-D1004.aspx

I am going to try it out with the factory speakers for now, though I expect I will likely be replacing those shortly as well. Leaning towards Focal or JL C3 series components.
Some of the other stuff I have accumulated for this build includes:

Fuse Block for Power Distribution https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M6VZ8BL/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Ground Distribution Block https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N0ECL56/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
9 conductor wire https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QU1JIE2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am removing the carpet/cardboard tray that is under the trunk floor that covers the spare tire and replacing it with a carpet covered wood panel. The goal is for this to hold everything in place, but will also have a handle on it for easy removal so I can get to the spare tire without issue. I am also using male and female quick disconnect harnesses for all speaker wire and power connections:
Splicing into factory radio harness with 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/52-Pin-Qua...oda-SEAT-OPEL-BMW-VW-/222720512114?rmvSB=true

And easily disconnecting the trunk setup using these (keeping them VW style just cause I can)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002BEQKM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007WTF7K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This will allow me to keep a factory style connection to remove everything in one shot when I turn the lease in.

I will be taking some pictures of my harness I am building and the board and equipment later today and will post everything up then. My one question is for anyone on here who is either a VW Tech or has played with the audio stuff in their Atlas to date. I have the wiring diagrams, but I cant seem to tell if the wires coming out of the factory stereo are only 4 channels that are split at the door for the woofer and tweeter or are they split coming out of the stereo? If no one knows I will do the research and report my findings.


----------



## TeamAtlas (Oct 17, 2017)

I guess I just don't understand what the JL DSP is supposed to do. 

The musical signal is digital, then the head unit converts it to analog (usually not very well). This device takes in analog, does something digital with it and then sends it back out as analog. All that conversion is not usually a good thing when trying to get good fidelity. There are devices which "improve" sound quality by algorithms, but none of this would do in a proper hi-fi setup. They may make it sound "better" in your car. 

Car audio is tricky since the environment is so bad (a big steel box). I think, if we really want to improve audio quality, we need to find out if there is a digital out from the headunit and take the digital to analog conversion task away from the headunit.


----------



## Leatherhead237 (Feb 26, 2018)

So has anyone confirmed if the CD player is actually the head unit as well or is it just final amplification and if it is just the amp where the DSP is? Is there a fiber connection into the CD player? 

I know VW usually runs their audio on MOST bus for which there are aftermarket solutions for D/A converters and even full digital amps and DSPs now. 

I am going to get around to doing some digging on my own hopefully this weekend, but I was wondering where we stand with information at this point. 

danporges, I was in the industry for the past 12 or so years as well so hopefully between the two of us we can get something worked out lol. I have some ZR and C5 comps, 2-300/4v3's, a 600/1v3, and a 10w6 just waiting lol.


----------



## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

I have confirmed that there is not an external amplifier. The CD player unit is the audio source and only when there is the Fender Audio upgrade of the Premium model does it then go out to ampifier which is I believe mounted under the passenger seat. The wiring diagrams I have downloaded and tested show that in the harness coming out of the CD unit, the wires which are 16 awg are the signal to the 8 speakers, 4 channels split at the doors with inline crossovers as the only filter to control what is split to the tweeters and woofers.

Regarding TeamAtlas' question about the purpose of the JL Fix86, I have had a lot of experience with different DSP's from JL (CleanSweep 441, Fix 82, 86), AudioControl (Lc6i and Lc7i) and others. Some of the higher end system from Focal and Rockford are full digital control and crossovers that are meant for acoustic mastering of the media signal and each individual channel for a point of listening either centered in the vehicle or to the driver. The cheaper ones from AudioControl are really just line output conversion from high level (speaker wire) to low level (RCA) for the purpose of amplification.

To overly simplify it, all factory stereos in recent years (last 5-10 at least) have digital signal modification built into their software. This was mainly done to allow the manufacturers to put cheaper or smaller speakers into the cars and when the volume is increased past certain points the factory signal starts to turn down the bass and even midrange to avoid damaging the speakers. This results in a low volume signal that is essentially clean or unfiltered, but as the volume increase the signal begins to be artificially degraded. Its also important to note that this is done pre amplification in the stereo so a digital output would not circumvent this in most vehicles.

The JL Fix86 is a great middle ground that used to be largely owned by the JL CleanSweep 441. This is basically a signal flattening unit. It uses signal summing at an identified volume to digitally rebuild the audio signal into a flattened signal at all volumes. In the case of the Fix86, you can plug in as few as 2 or as many as 6 channels, it will use a CD you run in the car and it will do an analysis of the signal over the course of a variety of volume levels to determine where the degradation occurs and then rebuild the signal digitally. 

So now that you know what it does, the answer to the question of why is a little easier. The benefit here is if you want to add a subwoofer and just used the factory signal, every time you turn up the volume it the bass would fall off. By going through the Fix86 first you are taking back that control and allowing further adjustments of the sound.


----------



## jpik (Sep 11, 2017)

any updates? I'm deciding between a Tig or an Atlas right now. I'm not too impressed with my wife's fender upgrade in her alltrack, wish VW still used Dynaudio, but I guess that was a while ago. post some pics as you build it!


----------



## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

I took a bunch of pictures today and have it test fit in the car. Working on getting them uploaded here for visual.


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

Same here, already ordered a bunch of audio stuff. I have my Focal 165KRX2 coming in on wednesday. The crazy thing is that the rear speakers are 5.5 but you can fit a 6.5 with a 0.5 inch spacer.


----------



## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

Here are some pictures for you guys, sorry for the delay.
First I cut a board the shape of the opening below the trunk floor. I removed the cardboard tray over the tire so this rests on top of the tire and has handles to easily lift out of the way when you need to reach the spare.


















I mounted everything and built a wiring harness incorporating the audio and power leads. The VW factory style connections will be used to connect the speaker inputs and outputs on the left side of the unit.









I opted to make the power and grounds a shared setup. The power leads go into a fuse block and have individual fuses for each device. The ground is a universal ring terminal block My plan is to have a quick disconnect for power and ground connected on the left side and run straight to the battery or fuse box in the front of the car.


----------



## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

BLACKatlas said:


> Same here, already ordered a bunch of audio stuff. I have my Focal 165KRX2 coming in on wednesday. The crazy thing is that the rear speakers are 5.5 but you can fit a 6.5 with a 0.5 inch spacer.


Do you happen to have the details on the speakers sizes, woofers and tweeters? I cant seem to get them from my usual sources and I wanted to start shopping for some options without taking the door apart to measure the specs for depth and size. If I run the 1/2 inch spacer is there enough clearance from door panel? TIA


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

danporges said:


> Do you happen to have the details on the speakers sizes, woofers and tweeters? I cant seem to get them from my usual sources and I wanted to start shopping for some options without taking the door apart to measure the specs for depth and size. If I run the 1/2 inch spacer is there enough clearance from door panel? TIA


Yup i have pretty much all the details about the speakers. I already took both the rear and front passanger door panels off.
There is enough clearance for a 1/2 inch spacer in the back. Not 100% sure on the front but i can check later.


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

[/url]Untitled by Isaac Rodriguez, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

[/url]Untitled by Isaac Rodriguez, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

[/url]Untitled by Isaac Rodriguez, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

*Rear 6.5 speaker where original 5.5 speaker was at.*








[/url]Untitled by Isaac Rodriguez, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

[/url]Untitled by Isaac Rodriguez, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

One more thing to note it that water does get inside the door. If you buy some nice speakers, you will have to put a baffle on them and make cut outs on it in order to protect it.








[/url]Untitled by Isaac Rodriguez, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## WulfKar24 (Jan 2, 2018)

Hey guys. Been trolling threads like yours. Been looking for a better radio solution before I upgrade sound. 

Thought about some of the semi decent Android units. Couldn't work up the courage. Fender support was sketchy.

Mainstream radios couldn't connect to most amp. 

While watching Alpine restyle being installed in golf7 on YouTube I noticed it was an R. Hmm most if not all are Fender or Dynaudio or Canton.

How were they connecting essentially an aftermarket radio to the most amp? 

I found Alpines part number for their most interface for Golf 7. Boom!! 

But Alpine doesn't make those things...

So I checked in with Kufatec who make well everything.

https://www.kufatec.de/shop/en/retr...nge-adapter-vw-golf-7-most-amplifier-dynaudio

Boom again!! Kufatec does!

It would seem that this is my answer. So I might just try it. 

It may only allow me to just change radio and retain Fender...it may provide a way to tap into signals before the amp and straighten signals out a bit. I'm not sure of the latter though.

Most of us will likely just go around the fender system into our aftermarket amps... But maybe some will find other fun routes.

Hope I can put a bit of green together to test this out soon.


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

WulfKar24 said:


> Hey guys. Been trolling threads like yours. Been looking for a better radio solution before I upgrade sound.
> 
> Thought about some of the semi decent Android units. Couldn't work up the courage. Fender support was sketchy.
> 
> ...


If this were to work it would seem like a decent upgrade if you are planning on keeping the stock fender system. My only concern would be if you want to upgrade your speakers. You would also have to swap out the amps because they usually cut off bass or high frequency in order to protect stock speakers. This means $$$. Personally i would stick with the OEM system and work around it to retain all the features. I would be scared of putting this head unit in and bricking my OEM display.

If this head unit were to work as planned. I would expect a marginal improvement because of the oem speakers.


----------



## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

Hows the sound on that Pioneer unit? 

Thanks,

Dan


----------



## jpik (Sep 11, 2017)

I have the Fender system in my Tiguan SEL-P, for now I' m pleased enough but Id like better sound control. Would that JL item be able to tap into the stock setup and just allow better EQ control? 8 speakers and a sub and the only EQ'ing available is basic fader and a sub level, and levels for bass/mid/treble. And the doors are not crossed over at all from sub frequencies, so there's extra distortion.

If the JL item doesn't work anyone have a better way of controlling the stock Fender setup?


----------



## BLACKatlas (Mar 13, 2018)

jpik said:


> I have the Fender system in my Tiguan SEL-P, for now I' m pleased enough but Id like better sound control. Would that JL item be able to tap into the stock setup and just allow better EQ control? 8 speakers and a sub and the only EQ'ing available is basic fader and a sub level, and levels for bass/mid/treble. And the doors are not crossed over at all from sub frequencies, so there's extra distortion.
> 
> If the JL item doesn't work anyone have a better way of controlling the stock Fender setup?


The JL dsp that was mentioned in this post is an 8 input and 6 output device. What you are looking for is an 9 channel device. If you are looking for a JL dsp the one you would want is JL Audio TwK™ 88. It has 8 outputs. As for the sub you could easily take the rear outputs and slip them to a separate mono amplifier and set your low pass accordingly. 
^^^ Most likely you will not want to reuse your stock amplifiers because we dont know if the EQ is happening at the stereo or at the amp. If it is at the stereo, the amp might still remove the lower and high end frequencies in order to protect stock speakers.
Any dsp you get will have some level of EQ that is better than stock.

The easiest way upgrading the system would be to get a 4 channel amp for front and rear and a sub amp. The speakers would have to be 2 way components with a crossover for each door. Finally some sort of signal correction like the JL-86.
What this basically means is that you would be getting rid of all the Fender stuff.

If all you are looking for is EQ then you would need to remove the amps and install new amps with a dsp.


----------



## jpik (Sep 11, 2017)

BLACKatlas said:


> The JL dsp that was mentioned in this post is an 8 input and 6 output device. What you are looking for is an 9 channel device. If you are looking for a JL dsp the one you would want is JL Audio TwK™ 88. It has 8 outputs. As for the sub you could easily take the rear outputs and slip them to a separate mono amplifier and set your low pass accordingly.
> ^^^ Most likely you will not want to reuse your stock amplifiers because we dont know if the EQ is happening at the stereo or at the amp. If it is at the stereo, the amp might still remove the lower and high end frequencies in order to protect stock speakers.
> Any dsp you get will have some level of EQ that is better than stock.
> 
> ...


Thanks, appreciate the info. Dang, things were so much easier back in the days where sound quality guys could just argue over amps.

Even with the Fender system there isn't any low crossover on the doors. I can easily distort the low side frequencies even if EQ'd all the way down. Sounds to me like the doors are all full range, I haven't checked the tweeters, but in my last car all they did was put an in-line cap on the dash tweeters and they left the door mid roll off naturally.


----------



## Cali4life3 (Jan 4, 2018)

So I have read through the thread and I still can’t seem to figure out if behind the CD player there is an optical out? Curious as I am looking to get a Helix DSP to hook up to some Soundigital amps and DC Audio Subs.


----------



## tbgti (Oct 23, 2017)

Have an SEL (not Premium, no Fender audio). Looking to just get a set of components for the front (for now). Would like a set with inline x-overs for now due to simplicity (hopefully) of install. Any recommendations?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brian81 (Apr 19, 2007)

tbgti said:


> Have an SEL (not Premium, no Fender audio). Looking to just get a set of components for the front (for now). Would like a set with inline x-overs for now due to simplicity (hopefully) of install. Any recommendations?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Get some high-efficiency 6.5" components like Infinity Reference or Kappas (depending on how much you want to spend). Do the rear as well - it will make difference in clarity and bass extension. JBL used to have (15 years ago) components with capacitors in the wires to provide "crossover", but they just blocked signal and sounded like crap.

Mounting a crossover is no big deal. You'll be drilling anyway to remove the factory speakers (held on by rivets) so 2 more holes per door will take you a minute. I've seen zip ties or industrial velcro but that will open the door for rattles. Attach the factory wires to the woofers to the crossovers, and the rest of the wires come with the speakers. As long as you're in there...attaching some sound deadening to the door metal will also make a big difference. Clearer sound due to eliminating vibration and you'll virtually eliminate any potential for door rattles. I like b-quiet, but I think they only sell 50' rolls now, and you don't need that much. Some cheap 50mil stuff like this on eBay will work fine. Cover as much as you can on each door, maybe a double layer around the speakers, and put the rest on the back of the plastic door panels. You'll need some spacers also - they're built into the factory speakers - and you can get some MDF ones on eBay. Don't use the plastic ones. Get a set of panel removal tools and you can do the whole thing yourself (if you've never done it before).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16-SQFT-50...m=173262493961&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-6-5-I...=item2aa5ec9241:g:QOsAAOSwB2NazNcv:rk:62:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7x-Car-Rad...h=item5b3c97a78d:g:zAoAAOSwPzhaAeYO:rk:4:pf:0


----------



## tbgti (Oct 23, 2017)

brian81 said:


> Get some high-efficiency 6.5" components like Infinity Reference or Kappas (depending on how much you want to spend). Do the rear as well - it will make difference in clarity and bass extension. JBL used to have (15 years ago) components with capacitors in the wires to provide "crossover", but they just blocked signal and sounded like crap.
> 
> Mounting a crossover is no big deal. You'll be drilling anyway to remove the factory speakers (held on by rivets) so 2 more holes per door will take you a minute. I've seen zip ties or industrial velcro but that will open the door for rattles. Attach the factory wires to the woofers to the crossovers, and the rest of the wires come with the speakers. As long as you're in there...attaching some sound deadening to the door metal will also make a big difference. Clearer sound due to eliminating vibration and you'll virtually eliminate any potential for door rattles. I like b-quiet, but I think they only sell 50' rolls now, and you don't need that much. Some cheap 50mil stuff like this on eBay will work fine. Cover as much as you can on each door, maybe a double layer around the speakers, and put the rest on the back of the plastic door panels. You'll need some spacers also - they're built into the factory speakers - and you can get some MDF ones on eBay. Don't use the plastic ones. Get a set of panel removal tools and you can do the whole thing yourself (if you've never done it before).
> 
> ...


Thanks Brian! 

Looking at the Focal ISS 165 for front and rear doors. Anyone have any experience with the lower-end Focal components? Will be doing speakers only, no amps or anything else (at least for now). 

I haven’t done car audio since high school - 15+ years ago!


----------



## brian81 (Apr 19, 2007)

tbgti said:


> Thanks Brian!
> 
> Looking at the Focal ISS 165 for front and rear doors. Anyone have any experience with the lower-end Focal components? Will be doing speakers only, no amps or anything else (at least for now).
> 
> I haven’t done car audio since high school - 15+ years ago!


Focals are awesome, I put 2 pair of Focal K2 Power 165KRX2 in our '19 Jetta. Crutchfield is giving away the ISS 165 right now - jump on it! Half price on Focals is hard to beat.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISS165/Focal-Integration-ISS-165.html

You may find that you want an amp later, but only because Focals are one of those speakers that most models sound great as OE replacements, but come alive when you put some power behind them.


----------



## tbgti (Oct 23, 2017)

Thanks again, Brian - The 165KRX2 look amazing, but are nearly 10x the price of the ISS 165! 

I went ahead and ordered 2 sets of the ISS 165 open-box from Crutchfield for less than $120; pretty sure I can’t lose for that price. 

Grabbed the spacers and sound deadening material that you linked from eBay and the doors look pretty easy to open up, so I’m hoping the install isn’t too terrible. 

Thanks again for the advice/pointers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brian81 (Apr 19, 2007)

Happy to help. Have fun with the installation. You'll be happy with the Focals.

The only reason I have the 165KRX2s is that they were pretty much free. A guy in my neighborhood had a MKIV GLI that he bought new and put the Focals in a year ago; the car was perfect before some clown hit it while parked and totaled it. He bought it from the insurance company for $500 and sold it to me for $2000 as a parts donor for my '03 Jetta wagon. I wanted the 1.8t, transaxle, driveshafts, spindles, hubs, big brakes, wheels, seats, and some body trim. When I removed the door panels...hello Focals!


----------



## MansardRoof (Sep 14, 2018)

Don’t be disappointed. Frankly the Fender Audio doesn’t sound that great and I’m sure whatever system you put in will sound infinitely better. 



danporges said:


> I for one am disappointed that the Fender audio system was not made available below the Premium model. Given a background in Mobile Electronics I have decided to take this on myself. Here is the breakdown of what I am adding to start with:
> 
> JL Audio Fix86 http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_45951_JL_Audio_Fix-86.aspx
> Pioneer TS-WX70DA Powered Subwoofer http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_47754_Pioneer_TS-WX70DA.aspx
> ...


----------

