# AWP & AGU Intake manifold comparison



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

I was looking for a comparison thread and only found 1, which was done by ISSAM back in 2008.
He compared them side by side on the dyno whiling keeping all of the other variables equal.
Here it shows a 20WHP gain.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-034-Motorsports-AGU-Manifold-vs-AWP-Manifold

However, I feel this subject is WAY over due. So here is my little refresher.


I recently bought an AEB head and then purchase an AGU intake manifold to go with it, which came in today.

On to the pictures.

The physical difference between the 2 manifolds.



















Gap between the stock AWP injectors and the AGU manifold injector bungs.



















The gap you see above is taken up by un-spacers.



















With the un-spacers.




























If you are asking why I did this (I know somebody is) the AEB head has larger ports and valves than the AWP head. The AGU Manifold has the same size and shape ports as the AEB head. In short, they are a matching set.

In the thread above done by ISSAM, the small port AWP manifold with a phenolic adapter/spacer, you can see the AGU manifold still made 20 more HP and TQ.

$230 for 20HP/TQ, Yes please.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Shouldnt those un-spacers go between the rail and injectors?


----------



## Jerm23MK4 (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm in on this.. running a AEB with AGU set opcorn:


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

No, there is a grove at the top of the injectors that a clip slides though and holds them fast against the fuel rail.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Jerm23MK4 said:


> I'm in on this.. running a AEB with AGU set opcorn:


Do you have before&after Dyno sheets?
Did you feel a difference?


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

You will indeed feel a difference.
However, if you ask me, I dislike the OEM intake manifold design; nothing favorable about it. 
It's not designed well, seems like it is the result of a bad high school engineering project :laugh:

No offense


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Don® said:


> You will indeed feel a difference.
> However, if you ask me, I dislike the OEM intake manifold design; nothing favorable about it.
> It's not designed well, seems like it is the result of a bad high school engineering project :laugh:
> 
> No offense


I know I will feel a difference. But, on top pf the AEB head (which might be getting cams) and the AGU intake manifold, I'm doing a slew of other things on this build.

I was hoping Jerm did it in stages.

I agree it isn't the best flowing manifold, but i'm not looking for huge amounts of power while i'm FWD.
WHEN I do the AWD swap, then I'll shoot for the stars

None taken. But you gotta admit, for it's price, it is a nice power/OEM+ upgrade.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> No, there is a grove at the top of the injectors that a clip slides though and holds them fast against the fuel rail.


The clips that hold the injectors into the rail are simply a convenience for assembly. This way an industrial robot can lift/move/place an entire assembly rather than individual components. They provide no significant function once the installation is done. On the other hand, the non-AGU/AEB 1.8T injector's spray pattern is directional. By placing the Unspacers on the bottom, you're shrouding the pattern. It's not a good idea at all. Move them to the top and let the fuel pressure bottom the injectors in the lower bungs for proper operation. :thumbup:


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

OP: What injectors are you running? My bosch 380's worked out fine. never tried anything else though. Thanks for the link, Now I can post it in my AGU f/s thread....Shamless promotion.


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

spacers go on the top!!! you've got them wrong..


your spray pattern will be crap like that if not completely ruined and probably just pouring fuel rather than spraying!


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> The clips that hold the injectors into the rail are simply a convenience for assembly. This way an industrial robot can lift/move/place an entire assembly rather than individual components. They provide no significant function once the installation is done. On the other hand, the non-AGU/AEB 1.8T injector's spray pattern is directional. By placing the Unspacers on the bottom, you're shrouding the pattern. It's not a good idea at all. Move them to the top and let the fuel pressure bottom the injectors in the lower bungs for proper operation. :thumbup:


No kidding?
I always thought they were there to hold them in place.
Damn.
I'm sure glad You told me.
I'm gonna go test fit them the other way around...
....
....
holy moly. You weren't lying.
Thank you for that.
TIL.



ANT THE KNEE said:


> OP: What injectors are you running? My bosch 380's worked out fine. never tried anything else though. Thanks for the link, Now I can post it in my AGU f/s thread....Shamless promotion.


I am running the stock AWP injectors.
You have the TTQ225 injectors right?


----------



## zrau17 (Apr 21, 2010)

A while back on my ATP based 3071r setup I swapped from an AWP to and AGU I found for $100. Couldn't beat it. Got it installed the day it came and went for a drive. I honestly felt a little more responsiveness down low and spool seemed to drop a tiny bit. I also did this with a phenolic transition spacer at the same time for my AWP head and the mani was literally cool to the touch after driving.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

So the spacer lowered the AITs?
But the AGU manifold gave more responsiveness?


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> I am running the stock AWP injectors.
> You have the TTQ225 injectors right?


You should be able to just put those injectors in. They are the same size as my Bosch white 380's...which are also for sale...shameless plug


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> You should be able to just put those injectors in. They are the same size as my Bosch white 380's...which are also for sale...shameless plug


Negative.
Yours are longer than stock AWP injectors.


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Negative.
> Yours are longer than stock AWP injectors.


I'll Be Back.....with more info if you want, but it worked for me for 30k+. They are the same size and can take pics tomorrow to prove if you don't believe me :facepalm:. I thought the same thing till Mike P seated them in my AGU mani and told me to stop making things more complicated(I've got a knack for that sometimes). Here's a link to my said injectors that worked fine.

Injectors:
http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2627634/

Here's a link to an old thread of mine with some info too:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3920051-Injector-seat-problems.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

If you look at the 3rd picture, you can see the gap. they were not even touching the injector bungs.

Did you have the stock AWP fuel rail mounted the right way?

I'm sure if I cut the 2 small brackets away and mounting with out them, free standing if you will, then they might fit.


----------



## Jerm23MK4 (Sep 20, 2012)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Do you have before&after Dyno sheets?
> Did you feel a difference?


No Before and after dyno, i didn't do it in stages.. You can feel a difference though for sure. i just feel my stock TB is holding things up for me right now..


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> If you look at the 3rd picture, you can see the gap. they were not even touching the injector bungs.
> 
> Did you have the stock AWP fuel rail mounted the right way?
> 
> I'm sure if I cut the 2 small brackets away and mounting with out them, free standing if you will, then they might fit.


I was using the stock AWW(same as AWP) fuel rail. I'm pretty sure it was installed properly, I can't even think how a fuel rail could even be mounted wrong. I'll be looking for the injector's to see what's up again. I'm using my only rail on, but still have my AGU manifold to test my stock AWW injectors(same as AWP).


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

I didn't mean to say you installed it the wrong way.

But did you or Mike P modify the fuel rail?

I've studied my fuel rail for a good minute and there is NO way the AWP injectors will seat into the AWP fuel rail AND AGU injector buns.

The tabs that stick out from the fuel rail bolt to the manifold. Unless those 2 tabs are modified, the AWP injectors can only sit into the rail or injector bungs. Not both. The gap is to big.


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

I now see what your saying, I never modified anything for the whites install. I do think that I've found your answer.http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3598653


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

The white injectors being the 380s right?
And the top, stock AWP.


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> The white injectors being the 380s right?
> And the top, stock AWP.


Yup, I also tried to fit my stock injector(black) and it wouldn't seat.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

See, that's what I thought.


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

I was still going to try and help :laugh: eace:


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

No worries, it's all straightened out now.:beer:


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Ran into an issue with the unspacers mounted on the fuel rail side of the injectors.

It makes them too long and the rail can't be fasted to the manifold.

And the AWP injectors don't seat into the injector bungs either. I think they aren't wide enough. They reach the bottom, they just don't seat in quite right.

Pics to come.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

There are different height unspacers, fyi


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

groggory said:


> There are different height unspacers, fyi


It isn't a height issues, it's an injector issue. or injector bung, which ever you want to blame.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> On the other hand, the non-AGU/AEB 1.8T injector's spray pattern is directional. By placing the Unspacers on the bottom, you're shrouding the pattern. It's not a good idea at all. Move them to the top and let the fuel pressure bottom the injectors in the lower bungs for proper operation. :thumbup:


You pretty much lost me here.

I thought directional meant, more or less, a stream. As appose to spray.

My injectors have 4 holes. I don't understand who the unspacers are gonna shroud the pattern.

Could you please explain further?


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

You cant put those spacers on the injectors like ANT THE KNEE has pictured. You can only put them on long nose injectors, where the nose still sticks out the end of the spacer. 

With the spacers on the injectors pictured, the nose of the injector, where the fuel pisses out in a cone pattern, is a goo 5-10mm inside that spacer, it will **** the spray pattern. 

Put them on the top of injector like instructed, fit to fuel rail, mount injectors into seats on manifold, and IF required, space the rail off the mani as neccesary. The end


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

That makes sense.
Except the injectors do not seat into the injector bungs.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Injector in manifold









dat gap:laugh::facepalm:









Unspacer in manifold.









no gap.









Side by side


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Space the gap. 
Why doesnt it seat properly? 
Injector seats from small port to large port are slightly different. Ive not physically seen this myself, i just know its of importance from ordering injectors from usrt.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Maybe your injectors are just wrong for that manifold. Maybe a set of genesis II 330's are in your future


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Put a couple of washers under the fuel rail mounting points. I use flat nylon spacers from home depot instead of washers. They come in different thicknesses


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

superkarl said:


> Space the gap.





formerly silveratljetta said:


> Put a couple of washers under the fuel rail mounting points. I use flat nylon spacers from home depot instead of washers. They come in different thicknesses


This is the 2nd and 3rd time somebody had addressed the length and an issue.

*It is not a length issue. The AWP injectors DO NOT seat into the AGU injector bungs. It is the dimension(s) of the injectors that is an issue.*



superkarl said:


> Why doesnt it seat properly?
> Injector seats from small port to large port are slightly different. Ive not physically seen this myself, i just know its of importance from ordering injectors from usrt.


The end of the injectors are the wrong diameter. You know how when an injector seats properly and you pull it out, it makes a *pop*. Well they don't do that. At all. They just fall out. 



groggory said:


> Maybe your injectors are just wrong for that manifold. Maybe a set of genesis II 330's are in your future


This is what I'm thinking.
I'm fixxing on buying ANT THE KNEE's 380 as he said his fit with any issues.


Jerm23MK4, what injectors are you using? Do you or did you have any fitment issues?


----------



## zachhillmann (Jun 9, 2011)

any progress on this? i assume this is a total waste of time/money with a stock head(awp)


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

The OEM awp injects don't fit. I actually just sold it the other day. But unless you get after market injectors and a tune for them, it's useless.


----------



## lewp91 (May 9, 2011)

can you not remove the bungs and fit the AWP ones to the AGU manifold? or are they different diameters externally too?


..
..
never mind they are different sizes completely.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

lewp91 said:


> they are different sizes completely.


yup.
I tried it. While the thread pitch is the same, the diameters are different.
I wish somebody made adapter bungs to fit into AGU manifolds but accepts AWP injectors. That way it would take out the need to get different injectors and a tune to accommodate them.


----------



## lewp91 (May 9, 2011)

is there not a matching bigport injector cc to the AWP ones that you could use? or is the spray pattern etc all different meaning you need a new tune?

found this however..

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=213378


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

As far as I know there isn't.
The only thing you can do to make it work, with out getting injectors and a tune, is using a phenolic spacer that 034 makes.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Spray pattern and tune are not related. Is just the difference in how much fuel the injectors put out.


----------



## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

The issue I had with them was the diameter. I filed down the outside of the injector until it fit and sealed in the bung.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Beat the Heat said:


> The issue I had with them was the diameter. I filed down the outside of the injector until it fit and sealed in the bung.


I'm not a big fan of filing down injectors...


----------



## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I was not either and was stressed that I they would leak or something, but they did not. It worked for me though.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

What exactly did you file down? do you have before and after pictures?


----------



## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

There are pictures in my built thread somewhere. Probably towards the front. I filed down the sides where there are those two lips on the side of the injector. That is what it was hanging up on.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Has no one ever tested a wide-port AGU intake manifold to see if it can improve performance on a US-market small-port head? Yes, I've seen 034Motorsports comparison of the two manifold types on a LARGE port head. But what might result from simply installing a cheap, used AGU intake manifold in place of the stock one? These manifolds are available on Ebay's international site for less than $100. The phenolic spacer/adapter is also a terrific value through IE or 034. It sure seems to me the low costs of this mod would have been explored by now.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I thought the AGU intake manifold deserved a bit of research, so we picked one up on Ebay. Here it is, in the powder-coated black form it was delivered.











The issue of seating fuel injectors seems not to be a problem with EV14-series Bosch 550s. These injectors have a slim barrel, allowing fitment into the narrow injector inserts on the AGU manifold. Here are the inserts:




















And here is the Bosch 550, alongside the longer EV6-series Bosch 440cc "Green Giant". The AGU manifold requires a longer injector, which can be remedied using spacers like the one pictured.











Here's the Bosch 550cc after assembling it with the spacer and harness adapter. It now has the same length as an AGU-friendly injector.












Adapted 550cc in the AGU manifold's injector seat:











Now the question is whether the manifold offers anything beyond what a stock, narrow-port manifold delivers.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

How did I miss this?

The problem I had was with the stock injectors because the agu inserts were a bit bigger. I was going to have to step it up to 380s, or bigger, which meant all kinds of other fun.

But, none the less, looks like you've been busy. What engine displacement and turbo are you going to test with this?


----------



## ibizacupra (Nov 23, 2001)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> No, there is a grove at the top of the injectors that a clip slides though and holds them fast against the fuel rail.


wrong end dude
the spacing of the injector that way is going to fcuk with your spray pattern something rotten
they go the other end..


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

If you read the rest of it, you'll see that has already been covered.


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

This is very interesting...

I am in the same route and i bought as well several months ago an AGU manifold which will be installed along with a transition spacer in my small port head.

There is no info out there about this mod, and i wanted to try this too as the large runners should also increase the internal volume of the manifold too. Unfortunately i havent had luck installing the mani and tbh i decided to use the runners and make a custom plenum manifold since i already have this large port Mani...

What is the length of this bosch injector? 60mm?

If am an not wrong, i think for my european car, i will have to remove my Siemens deka 630 and the spacers of the fuel rail and install the AGU manifold without the need of spacers. Injector inserts are the same to what i am using in my stock mani i think.


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

034 used to sell an OEM large-port intake mani... it was something like a 10hp gain over small port.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

All_Euro said:


> 034 used to sell an OEM large-port intake mani... it was something like a 10hp gain over small port.


If you're talking about the results found on this page...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-034-Motorsports-AGU-Manifold-vs-AWP-Manifold

...then they are to illustrate the benefits of a wide-port manifold paired to a wide port head. But my interest is in finding if that same wide-port manifold offers anything in combination with the typical US-market narrow-port cylinder head. Only way to find out is by testing it.


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> If you're talking about the results found on this page...
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-034-Motorsports-AGU-Manifold-vs-AWP-Manifold
> 
> ...then they are to illustrate the benefits of a wide-port manifold paired to a wide port head. But my interest is in finding if that same wide-port manifold offers anything in combination with the typical US-market narrow-port cylinder head. Only way to find out is by testing it.


Kind of hard to tell with the links and quotes broken up but that seems like the same info 034 used to have on their website - the testing was done on Christian's MK4 Jetta... so, if so, it was a 20hp gain but using a large port head.

I have a large port intake mani, that I found on the other side of the pond, on my car so I look forward to the results of your testing.


----------



## NOpassattimmy (Oct 13, 2011)

Glad I saw this, I have been on the verge of purchasing one of these manifolds for a while.

If the problem with the manifold is the injector not seating properly, maybe its possible that a company (Phenix or Gruven maybe?) could make a billet injector cup that is the correct size for the AGU manifold, but has the correct diameter for the stock AWP injectors(if that is where the issue lies, sorry if I messed up my understanding).

Or on another note, and I may be pulling this idea out of my ass, I would assume that the passat AEB injectors push the same amount of fuel through as the AWP ones, so would it not be possible to use AEB injectors with this manifold?


----------



## LGDUBR (Mar 13, 2007)

Subscribed. Very interesting and I'm glad to see people thinking outside the box on this!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Why would you use a largeport intake mani with a smallport head? 

I can see the point if you port the smallport inlet ports to match the intake manifold but not mix them...


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> The clips that hold the injectors into the rail are simply a convenience for assembly.


Found this to not be true.
When I installed my VMS billet injector cups, my injectors leaked and it was because I didn't put that clip back in.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7053404-Problems-MORE-problems-VMS-billet-injector-cups


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

passattimmy said:


> I would assume that the passat AEB injectors push the same amount of fuel through as the AWP ones.


They don't. The AEB engine ran puny injectors.



Gulfstream said:


> Why would you use a largeport intake mani with a smallport head?


There's no test data available to justify this combination. But, also, I've never seen data that proves otherwise. That's why.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

You'd get a big ridge where bigport mani turns into smallport head where fuel could/will accumulate....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> You'd get a big ridge where bigport mani turns into smallport head where fuel could/will accumulate....













Problem solved


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> You'd get a big ridge where bigport mani turns into smallport head where fuel could/will accumulate....


Or you could port match the small port head to the big port mani or the other way around.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)




----------



## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

There is almost a 12mm difference in the 2 manifolds. I ported my aeb head to 57mm across all 4 runners. Running a large port manifold on a small port head won't due **** power wise


----------



## NOpassattimmy (Oct 13, 2011)

[email protected]enturbo.com said:


> They don't. The AEB engine ran puny injectors.


Ah okay just brain storming


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Njegos18t said:


> There is almost a 12mm difference in the 2 manifolds. I ported my aeb head to 57mm across all 4 runners. Running a large port manifold on a small port head won't due **** power wise


Why wouldn't putting a big port manifold on a small port head increase power? More air means more fuel and power. 

Now, port matching the small port head to the big port manifold wont do hardly anything but increase air/fuel flow and you wont have the accumulation gulfstream pointed out.


----------



## ibizacupra (Nov 23, 2001)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Why wouldn't putting a big port manifold on a small port head increase power? More air means more fuel and power.
> 
> Now, port matching the small port head to the big port manifold wont do hardly anything but increase air/fuel flow and you wont have the accumulation gulfstream pointed out.


you will loose torque and slow port velocity


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

And, just like with a bigger turbo, you'd gain top end power.


----------



## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Loving the info shared so far. Thanks to those contributing. :thumbup:


----------



## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

I got my AGU manifold for 93 shipped from England


----------



## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Njegos18t said:


> I got my AGU manifold for 93 shipped from England


So what is the going rate for one here in the states? I've seen people say they are worth $100 all the way up to $300.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

CD155MX said:


> So what is the going rate for one here in the states? I've seen people say they are worth $100 all the way up to $300.



It's more like this:



Njegos18t said:


> I got my AGU manifold for 93 shipped from England



The AGU manifold we're testing cost $130-$150 shipped from the UK.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Any updates from the tests Doug?


----------



## Jerm23MK4 (Sep 20, 2012)

I have a AGU intake manifold for sale. hit me up if interested


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

smh.
This isn't the classifieds there guy.


----------



## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Jerm23MK4 said:


> I have a AGU intake manifold for sale. hit me up if interested





MÄDDNESSS said:


> smh.
> This isn't the classifieds there guy.



Exactly. :banghead: I asked the going rate for these manifolds to help give myself and others an idea of what their gains per dollars spent will be. 

While this manifold doesn't have the massive gains of aftermarket manifolds, it's a great sleeper OEM+ upgrade. :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Any updates from the tests Doug?


The phenolic adapter is on order and we'll be immediately fitting the manifold to the FrankenWagen test car when it gets here. I'm looking at the end of this week, but it might need to push a couple of days depending on the dyno's availability.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Results on Monday.


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

It's Monday.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

As the pictures above show, ForceFed Engineering put the FrankenWagen back on their DynoJet and swapped intake manifolds. We then ran tests with nothing else on the car changed. Here are the data logs of the car before/after the swap:











Conditions on the dyno were virtually identical for both tests. The car was running 93octane and the modifications we've listed in this thread. Well, almost all the modifications listed there. The turbo was changed before doing the testing, but otherwise the car is in the same form. So at first glance the AGU intake manifold doesn't appear to make a bit of improvement. Not on paper anyway. And the dyno graph seems to point to that conclusion as well:











But the interesting thing is what happens if you remove the filter of SAE corrections. As I said, conditions between sessions were very similar. So what do we get if we compare the setups with NO corrections?











Now we're starting to see an actual difference. And honestly, I didn't think there'd be one. And here are the two graphs for torque, first with SAE correction and then with none:




















It seems to me that this mod offers a tangible gain. And for the cost of a used AGU manifold, adapter gasket & some injector spacers it seems like a good value.

But of course, the community here will naturally have more opinions as well. They're free to share their thoughts here.


Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Yeah buddy.



[email protected] said:


> They're free to share their thoughts here.


Thanks for you permission. lol.

I was pretty surprised to the AGU made more tq than the stock manifold.









I was always under the impression that, with the larger manifolds, you loose tq but gain hp.


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Great work, Doug! Thanks for sharing.



MÄDDNESSS said:


> I was pretty surprised to the AGU made more tq than the stock manifold.


The AGU is the red line in the graph. The stock manifold has more torque through the revs and a higher peak figure. The AGU has a little edge from like 5200-5500 haha...doesn't seem worth it to me!


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> It seems to me that this mod offers a tangible gain. And for the cost of a used AGU manifold, adapter gasket & some injector spacers it seems like a good value.
> 
> But of course, the community here will naturally have more opinions as well. They're free to share their thoughts here.


Was a stock TB used on both manifolds? 

Its odd that the AGU manifold had higher intake temps even with the spacer? Was a phenolic spacer used on the stock manifold?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Yeah buddy.
> I was pretty surprised to the AGU made more tq than the stock manifold.
> 
> 
> ...



Well, if you look at the comparisons without correction filtration, the results tend to confirm that theory about torque "loss"











I think the common wisdom, "_lose torque and gain hp_", is simply talking about the power being shifted rightward in the graphs. After all, there's no way to have higher hp at any point without having correspondingly higher torque.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

ticketed2much said:


> Was a stock TB used on both manifolds?


Take a look at this thread for a more complete picture of this car's hardware:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7084058-I-made-over-300bhp-did-it-on-the-cheap-amp-gained-confidence!-Ask-me-how!

You'll see the FrankenWagen's only mods prior to this test are intercooler, exhaust & turbo kit. Those and the 550cc fueling and Maestro software. So the answer is: the stock throttle body was transplanted right onto the new manifold. In fact the only accommodation we had to make for the European-market manifold were 13mm injector spaces, as shown above here.




ticketed2much said:


> Its odd that the AGU manifold had higher intake temps even with the spacer? Was a phenolic spacer used on the stock manifold?


The rate of increase between the two setups was pretty much identical. But that makes sense as the non-conductive spacer's benefit is to insulate against heat soak over time. And it was clear it did that. When shut down, the engine did not transfer as much heat to the aluminum intake. It never got warm over a dozen or more pulls.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

The AGU is the red line in the graph.[/QUOTE]
:banghead:
Sorry, I'm retarded. My bad.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

[email protected] said:


>


Not real familiar with mph vs. rpm, what rpm did the AGU make peak HP?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

ticketed2much said:


> Not real familiar with mph vs. rpm, what rpm did the AGU make peak HP?


----------



## JBHELL (May 5, 2011)

[email protected] said:


>


Was an aeb head used for this test or stock awp head?


----------

