# Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ?



## darrenewest (Oct 28, 2001)

With everyone's emphasis geared towards dampening adjustibility and dialing in the correct ride height for asthetics, are coilovers really worth it ?

On a MK IV chasis there is no real "true" coilover kit. Only for the fronts. My question is: can a car with a well tuned spring/shock compete on the same level? If you never needed to adjust your cars ride height, could you not just get springs with identical rates to coilovers and have the proper shocks/struts to control them ? I do see a need to adjust ride height for varying weather conditions, but I don't think I would ever do it otherwise. I see some people run "Race springs" with rates around 285 in/lbs while people say they are just to rough for the street. While Coilovers like the Bilstein PSS 9 run front rates at 350 in/lbs. People say this is perfectly streetable. What gives ? Some say @ 250 in/lbs. the Shine setup will knock your fillings out. The rears also range from 160 in/lbs. all the way to 400 in/lbs. ? I am somewhat confused. I am told you need to have an alignment and proper cornerweight done EVERYTIME you adjust your ride height...... I have riddin in a Bilstein/Neuspeed Race car and I though it was smoother than my B/Sport setup. The reason for all of this is because I am considering PSS 9's as I am told they are the best for handling. I'm trying to justify $1200 vs $199 ? I have decent shocks already (Bilstein Sport) and What I'm hoping to hear is that Coilovers are a night and day difference. 
Any insight ? I don't track race, and I don't auto X (although I would like to get into it) are coilovers just overkill when a good race spring/shock will surfice for the street. I like good handling nimble cars for the street. I can live with a 2.0" drop year 'round. What I can't lived with is knowing that I spent extra money when I could of gotten the same performance for less. Anyone running race springs ? Anyone run both setups ? I have a 28mm rear sway and was wondering if a coilover 300 in/lbs. rear spring setup would eliminate the need for this ?
I'm sure this has all been covered somewhere before, but I would appreciate past experiances with these setups. -Thanks.


----------



## turbo02gti (Feb 5, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

Coilovers can handle the higher spring rates without the filling lose because they are dampend to that specific spring unlike the spring/shock combo which is more of a "That's close enough" affair. What makes the coilovers worth the extra money is that you end up with a more streetable vehicle that gives you the ultimate in handling and comfort due to this above mentioned process. I have had many spring /shock combo's (not on Dub's) that I thought handled really well but the sacrifice I had to make in ride quality was ridiculous. This is my first vehicle that I purchased Coilovers for and I can honestly say that I will never go back to the Spring/Shock combo again. Now I have a car that rides better than stock ( a bit bumpier) and handles far better than my previous best Spring/Shock combo.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (turbo02gti)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Coilovers can handle the higher spring rates without the filling lose because they are dampend to that specific spring unlike the spring/shock combo which is more of a "That's close enough" affair.[HR][/HR]​Depends on the combination. Shine has done a ton of real world R&D, and has springs wound to their specifications to work with Bilstein HDs. I would imagine that this is more than a "that's close enough guess".


----------



## turbo02gti (Feb 5, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

That is why the SHINE setup works so well, but you still have the ride harshness to contend with! Most Spring/Shock Kits that you buy are a "Close Enough" effort. Like I said, I have had very good Spring/Shock combos before but they did very little for ride comfort. I doubt you will find any one of these kits that offer the same performance as Coilovers and not be on the harsh side for daily driving.


----------



## G3T3I7 (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (turbo02gti)*

OK, simple question..when the car is lowered around 1.8" (Sportlines) with good shocks will the ride quality be better with coilcovers set to the same exact height ?
I mean no matter what, the lower you go the harsher the ride, but I'm not lowering my car past 2", but I want to lower it the above ride height, or 1.5". In both of these ride heights, which will be more comfortable & corner better ?
Oh, and aren't cupkits "matched" springs and shocks, thus giving you the same ride quality as coils ?


[Modified by G3T3I7, 6:27 AM 11-15-2002]


----------



## John A (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (G3T3I7)*

quote:[HR][/HR]which will be more comfortable & corner better [HR][/HR]​1.5" done right will handle better than 1.8" drop -- lower is *not* better....


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (turbo02gti)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Most Spring/Shock Kits that you buy are a "Close Enough" effort. Like I said, I have had very good Spring/Shock combos before but they did very little for ride comfort.[HR][/HR]​Handling/Ride Quality .... Life's full of trade offs. I have yet to drive, ride in, or hear of a suspension "upgrade" that substantially improves handling, and preserves near stock ride qualities. Not saying Shine is the best ever, it's just what I happen to have on my vehicle at this time, and for me it works great.
*spelling ...


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 7:03 AM 11-15-2002]


----------



## John A (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

you should indeed be able to get the same kind of ride from a set of good springs / shocks. 
quote:[HR][/HR] I like good handling nimble cars for the street. I can live with a 2.0" drop year 'round. [HR][/HR]​at this point you're already in trouble... 2" is too much for good handling really... anything dropped 2" is going to ride harsh, as you've effectively killed your suspension travel. 
and yes, you are supposed to get an alignment after every time you adjust the coilovers, and most manufacturers suggest that the car be un-weighted when you DO adjust them... 
coilovers are not a night and day difference from a good shock/spring combo. what springs do you have now? it's not entirely clear...


----------



## John A (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

p.s. i don't think any of the regular consumer - level coilovers are ready for 400lb springs... i'll call bilstein today and check....


----------



## dbottles (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (John A)*

Yes a spring/shock combo can compeat with a coilover.
There is no advatage of coilovers at a given hight vs a non hight adjusting strut at that hight. 
In total coilovers have 2-1/2 advantages, hight adjustment, corner weighting, and if you have progressive springs preload can be affected on a coilover but that is only half a reason. 
In reality every strut, coilover or not, is designed for a spacific ride hight, this ride hight is basically 40%-50% of the total travel when the car is not moving. Thus the coilover's ability to adjust hight is limited in reality as you will quickly run out of travel if the spring purch is moved too much. 
Derek


----------



## davedave (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (dbottles)*

its application-dependent for best results.
the reson I say this is that I had an A3 GTI VR6 with H&R Coils and Autotech rear sway bar. 
then I got an 88 GLI with Tokico blues and Eibach springs, stock sways.
the GLI handles far better than the A3 did.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (davedave)*

All THAT means is that the Tokico's and Eibach's were not well matched and that the H&Rs were.
This doesn't prove any inherrent advantage for the H&Rs just because they are coil-overs, it just shows that H&R matched the spring rate with the proper dampening capabilities of their coilovers (threaded strut bodies & shock absorbers). A good suspension tuner can create this harmony just as effectively using OE diameter springs, struts & shocks.


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 12:24 PM 11-15-2002]


----------



## ryanslat (Oct 27, 2002)

My suspension setup is entirely stock. If I just swap out the springs for something like H&R sport springs (1.5" front, 1.4" rear drop), or Neuspeed sport springs (1.5" front/rear), do I need to do anything else to maintain my suspension chi? What I mean is, do I have to swap out the struts as well to maintain balance?
Does anyone prefer H&R or Neuspeed?
BTW: are there any good suspension FAQ's?


----------



## 2.0LGtiPwr (Mar 23, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (ryanslat)*

Unless you live in an area where climate is a major issue then adjustability seems to be of minor concern. If dropping the MKIV 2inch's is already deemed to be "too much" of a drop then why is the ability of some coilover kits, made for the MKIV, that drop as low as 2.5, 3 inch's praised as an attribute??? I have a H&R cup kit which is a matched spring and schock combo thats drop the frnt 2" and the rear 1.75" (a few mm more once settled). But all I'm trying to understand is - unless you actually corner balance the car, which it seems not too many people do with coils, then how many ways are there to justify spending that much extra $$$.
BTW, with a properly matched spring/schock combination then is there really that big a difference between a perceived perfect drop of 1.5/ 1.8inch to a 2.0inch drop on a Golf/ Jetta that saaaay ......... had a rear sway on it and performance tires.


----------



## aak97 (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (2.0LGtiPwr)*

I don't think coilovers are just for those who need to concern ride height in different weather condition. Coilovers can give you the Exact ride height you want, which normal spring/shock combo cannot.
I've also heard that if you lower too much, you'll loose handling and power (something to do with the drive shaft is not straight/parallel to the ground)


----------



## davedave (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]All THAT means is that the Tokico's and Eibach's were not well matched and that the H&Rs were.
This doesn't prove any inherrent advantage for the H&Rs just because they are coil-overs, it just shows that H&R matched the spring rate with the proper dampening capabilities of their coilovers (threaded strut bodies & shock absorbers). A good suspension tuner can create this harmony just as effectively using OE diameter springs, struts & shocks.

[Modified by f1forkvr6, 12:24 PM 11-15-2002][HR][/HR]​I only said the Eibach/Tokico's offered better handling on my A2 than H&R coils do on my heavier A3 VR6


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (davedave)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I only said the Eibach/Tokico's offered better handling on my A2 than H&R coils do on my heavier A3 VR6







[HR][/HR]​Yep - my bad ... re-aread your post and got it backwards. The way the thread was going I was expecting everyone to pile on the "coil-overs rock, everything else sux" campaign.
I agree with you -- it can be application dependent. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The best handling will come from the best match of spring rate/dampers for each particular chassis. This can come from either coil-overs, or a spring/shock combination.


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 7:18 AM 11-19-2002]


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (2.0LGtiPwr)*

quote:[HR][/HR]If dropping the MKIV 2inch's is already deemed to be "too much" of a drop then why is the ability of some coilover kits, made for the MKIV, that drop as low as 2.5, 3 inch's praised as an attribute???[HR][/HR]​Pure marketing hype. If it looks like a touring car (a la BTCC, DTM, etc ..) it "MUST" be fast ... .


----------



## burdelli (May 3, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

For most of us (including myself) the question comes down to 2 things: handling and comfort. Now to answer your question...
In terms of handling I think it's perfectly possible to find a spring/shock combo that performs just as well as a coilover setup. However, the difference then lies in the comfort. As mentioned earlier, due to the very nature of the coilover setup, it will almost always be more comfortable than a spring/shock combo (set at more or less the same height). 
I have B+G coils on my car and have ridden on H+R coils. I have also ridden on Neuspeed Sport/Koni combo (set at stiffest) and Eibach Sportline/Koni combo (set at softest). All these on the A4 platform. I have to say that while the handling characteristics of all setups were fairly close (all were pretty flat, low body roll), the ride was much more comfortable in the cars with coils. 
This is just an inherant quality of a coilover setup. Since most folks don't take their cars to the track or auto-x (as stated already), it comes down to handling and comfort (with streetability being very important IMO). Just depends on what you want out of your car... A killer handling machine at the lowest cost (get spring/shock combo for cheap) or a killer handling machine with some better ride comfort (get coils)?


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (burdelli)*

quote:[HR][/HR]As mentioned earlier, due to the very nature of the coilover setup, it will almost always be more comfortable than a spring/shock combo (set at more or less the same height) .... This is just an inherant quality of a coilover setup.[HR][/HR]​Wow ... this is just wrong. The two things that most affect handling and comfort are:
1. Spring Rates (Springs)
2. Effective control of the springs energy (shock absorbers, struts).
No matter what option you choose, coilovers (defined as threaded body struts and shocks, with 2.5" diameter springs) or a non-coilover system ("regular" struts and and shocks with OEM diameter springs) - you will be using springs. Additionally no matter what form the dampers come in (threaded bodied struts/shocks or "regular" struts/shocks) their main purpose is to control the springs.
There is absolutely NO "inherent quality" in a coilover setup, that has anything to do with spring rate, or spring control capabilities – *period*. Spring rates are spring rates, no matter what diameter the coils are wound. Shocks/Struts/Dampers all do the same thing no matter what they look like.
In short: All setups use springs, and to a point higher spring rates = stiffer ride and better handling. All setups have something to control the energy of the springs - either in the form of shocks/struts with or without threads on the outside – and there is a VAST selection of valving – adjustable or nonadjustable - one can choose from. The precise match between and spring rate and spring control is what makes a particular suspension setup handle better or worse, or the ride more or less comfortable.
This has to make sense by now.
quote:[HR][/HR]A killer handling machine at the lowest cost (get spring/shock combo for cheap) ... [HR][/HR]​Not always true either - SRS kit costs pretty much what a lot of coilover kits cost. There are also many dampers out there that cost $1,000 plus _for each corner_ - and no, they're not all coilovers.
There is no “best” suspension setup for everyone.
Coilovers have no inherent impact on ride quality.
Coilovers offer no noticeable advantage to the average driver during the every day commute.
Coilovers, can help those that race corner balance their car – this is their advantage.


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 5:40 PM 11-20-2002]


----------



## dbottles (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

f1forkvr6 is spot on with his points. 
There are so many things that are more important than having coilovers. Take springs, a coilover with a short spring with a lot of coils will be inferior to a stock strut with a long spring with a few coils if they both have the same sping rate and shock valving. The short spring may bind (the coils close up) as travel is limited in this type of set up. 
In this photo I show 3 sets of rear struts I ran on my rally car. 
http://www.11tenths.com/photoview.asp?photo=gabvsdms.jpg
The stock 323 stut with rate a matched Tokico insert and the purple GpA ford spring was 2 seconds a mile faster than the red GAB coilover with the GAB spec'ed dark blue spring. 
I was another 4 seconds a mile faster with the DMS strut and spring over bumpy stages. Note that this spring is progressive and more open than the GpA Ford Cosworth Spring or the GAB spring. Also note the shaft size of the stuts, giving room to run lower pressures and larger valves in the shock. 
Coilovers by them selves provide no performance, performance is in all the details such as spring rate, travel, shock bump rate, shock rebound rate, likelyhood of shock fade...
Derek


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (dbottles)*

quote:[HR][/HR]f1forkvr6 is spot on with his points. 
Coilovers by them selves provide no performance, performance is in all the details such as spring rate, travel, shock bump rate, shock rebound rate, likelyhood of shock fade...
Derek[HR][/HR]​THANK YOU ! ! ! I like the hammer and pliers in the picture - nice perspective http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif






















I didn't even want to get into the other aspects you mentioned, let alone roll couple, suspension geometry, or even basic wheel rate vs spring rate details ... many others (most smarter than I am, btw) have beaten these concepts to death in this forum.
Where is the damn search function ?!?!?!










[Modified by f1forkvr6, 6:53 AM 11-21-2002]


----------



## Tuba_Transport (Jul 4, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Where is the damn search function ?!?!?!








[HR][/HR]​Here is the search button


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (Tuba_Transport)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Where is the damn search function ?!?!?!








Here is the search button















[HR][/HR]​Yep ... and here is what you get .... guess I should have said:
Where is the damn search function_ALITY_ ?!?!?!








PS ... I do know were the link is ...


----------



## burdelli (May 3, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]There is absolutely NO "inherent quality" in a coilover setup, that has anything to do with spring rate, or spring control capabilities – *period*. Spring rates are spring rates, no matter what diameter the coils are wound. Shocks/Struts/Dampers all do the same thing no matter what they look like.
A killer handling machine at the lowest cost (get spring/shock combo for cheap) ... 
Not always true either - SRS kit costs pretty much what a lot of coilover kits cost. There are also many dampers out there that cost $1,000 plus _for each corner_ - and no, they're not all coilovers.
[HR][/HR]​As I said, I do not believe that coilovers are the best answer to everyone's performance needs. I believe that certain spring/shock combos will perform just as well if not better than certain coilover setups. And of course I know that you can buy spring/shock combos for well over what coils cost. My point was that most of the time, spring/shock combos (at least the most common ones that Vortexers use) will cost less than coils.
I completely agree that what makes suspension handling and comfort good/bad is related to the springs/shocks. What I meant by "inherent quality" was the design of the coilover suspension, As in helper springs, etc. Of course, as you say, handling and comfort depends entirely on spring rates and shock valving. 
You can usually put stiffer springs in coilover suspensions than regular spring/shock combos, yet the coilovers have a more comfortable ride. Look at the Shine setup for example with it's linear springs and HD shocks. Many people agree that, although it provides for excellent handling, it's a bit rough. I think that coilovers on the other hand, can provide the zero body roll and flatness that most people look for, without sacrificing ride comfort entirely. 
I think in the end it's all subjective. My opinion is (from the cars I've ridden in) that coilovers in general tend to provide a bit more comfy ride with great handling (similar to a race spring/shock combo setup) than similar spring/shock combos. Of course other people's opinions may vary. I don't dispute for one minute, nor do I think that coils are the best suspension solution out there. Again, it depends on what you're looking for. There are plenty of spring/shock combos that could easily outperform coilovers...


----------



## burdelli (May 3, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (burdelli)*

This is a post I found in another thread posted by TheTrader concerning his newly installed KW V2s. His post is exactly what I'm trying to point out...
"Hey there i spent half of today installing my KW coilovers on a mk2 GTI. I bought the coils used and got them for a good price, i was told they were KW v1's, but i found out once i recieved em they were v2's (fully adjustable). 
Anyways, the coils came off a mk3 jetta 2.0. It was my first experience with coils and I installed them on my mk2 with the greatest of ease. Had to use vr6 bearings up front, but other than that. they were a direct fit. Before the coils, a thrown together shock and spring setup was used and the car was pretty low but it rode REALLY harsh. After installing the kw's and lowering them to where i wanted them, i took a 10 min drive and handeling was MUCH improved, as was ride quality (even though i was lower than before). Bumps that would shake my fillings were not half as bad. the smaller (helper) spring is doing a GREAT job of absorbing the small bumps and dips. another nice thing is that i am lower than anyone in there right mind (tucking 16's all around), and i still have 2'' of thread up front, and 1.5 in the back.
Overall, my experience with the KW's is GRADE A. 5 stars. No complains WHATSOEVER.
big up for KW."


[Modified by burdelli, 2:44 PM 11-21-2002]


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (burdelli)*

quote:[HR][/HR] ... the design of the coilover suspension, As in helper springs, [HR][/HR]​These are totally bound when the car is on the ground - they play no part in the dynamic performance of the coilover. They're there mainly to keep the springs firmly in place when the suspension is at full droop.
quote:[HR][/HR]Look at the Shine setup for example with it's linear springs and HD shocks. Many people agree that, although it provides for excellent handling, it's a bit rough.[HR][/HR]​Yes it is stiff ...
quote:[HR][/HR]I think that coilovers on the other hand, can provide the zero body roll and flatness that most people look for, without sacrificing ride comfort entirely.[HR][/HR]​Actually, anti-roll bars accomplish this with least impact on ride quality. To reduce body roll - to the point where the vehicle stays "flat" - by relying on stiffer springs the ride will become less comfortable.
quote:[HR][/HR]I think in the end it's all subjective.[HR][/HR]​Ride quality is absolutely subjective. Cheers


----------



## G3T3I7 (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

I understand that ride quality is subjective, but is there aome actual, real truth to the fact that coilcovers set to the same height as a spring/shock combo will be more comfortable ????
If I decide to purchase the Apex 1.75" kit (matched springs/shocks), will it be more harsh than coilcovers set to the same exact height ?? I really want to know this before I make a purchase








Thanks.


----------



## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

IMO, springs and shocks are better than coilovers for daily driving. Here's why:
1. Springs and shocks can have less of a drop compared to coilovers -- coilovers often start at 1.5" drop minimum and go from there; springs can often be found with 0.5-1.3" drop 
2. Less drop is preferable because: it's more practical (ground clearance), better resistance to bump steer, and better roll control for a given spring rate (hence better comfort for the same handling)
3. Coilovers usually have much higher spring rates than your typical springs. Koni c/o's probably have the softest spring rates that are a little firmer than your average springs (180-250 lb/in), KW a little higher, H&R a little higher, and the PSS9 probably hits high 300's in the front and high 200's in the back. Compare that with Neuspeed Sport and H&R Sport springs, which are around 220/160 lb/in F/R. No matter how well matched a coilover's spring and shock rates are, it will be harsher than a spring/shock combo simply due to the much higher spring rate.
But many spring/shock combos aren't well-matched, you say? Well then get kits like the Eibach ProSystem whose springs and shocks are specifically tuned to work well together.
4. With the much higher prices, I don't think you can justify buying coilovers for daily driving. Unless you are unusually obsessed about having a particular ride height, wheel gap, or rake, or have specific racing needs, stick with a well-matched spring/shock combo.


----------



## darrenewest (Oct 28, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (G3T3I7)*

I started this thread, with all intentions of using it as an excuse to cheap out and buy some race springs for my 24v to be used in conjuntion with my Bilstein sports. Two weeks later I have bought coilovers. Why ? because of tunability. I wanted to be able to tune them to my specific demands of comfort and ride height. I rode in a race spring 2.0 MK IV with bilsteins and it had very good rise quailty contrary to popular belief. I have sport springs and I can safely say it was not too much stiffer. I choose another bilstein product though, I was very happy with their strut design and when comparing piston diameters too stock there is no comparison. I choose the PSS 9 kit. Probally one of the most expensive, but it had 9 very distinctive settings. And is geared towards performance as where 1.75" is the maximum drop. Thanks too all that have responded. I will Install them this Saturday and remove my Bilstein Sport / Neuspeed Sport package. I will be using these coilovers in conjunction with a 28mm solid rear sway bar for added roll control. I am considering a shine bar to replace the Neuspeed unit for even more control. Some quick questions before all is said:
1) Can I use lowering caps with the front Coilovers so for shows I can do a 2.0 drop in the front as the PSS 9's will only go 1.75"? - Yes a weird question considering what I'm trying to achieve but somthing I wanted to know.
2) Is There anything else at the time I.E. strut bearing / bushings to be replaced, I have heard VW Motorsports has a stiffer bearing. 
3) At this time I am also considering a 25mm front bar. I already have both strut braces front and rear. 
4) Opinions on tires - yes there is a tire forum but all this is no good without somthing in contact with the ground to put it to good use. I have both 16" and 17" rims.


----------



## G3T3I7 (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

This "subjectivity" of ride quality is killing me.
I've only ridden in Prokit/Koni's set to almost full, and the ride wasn't bad at all, but there is no one else around me that is willing to just offer me a ride that has a set-up that I'm willing to get, or coilovers. What do I do ?? I want to be lowered around 1.7"-1.75", and don't want to deal with an extremely harsh ride over small bumps and such.
Some say coilovers will be more comfortable, some say it doesn't matter, who's right







? All I know is the lower, the harsher because of spring rates.


----------



## burdelli (May 3, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (G3T3I7)*

As stated before, I think that of two cars with the same drop, one with a spring/shock combo and the other with coilovers, the one with the coils will most likely feel more comfortable. This is my opinion based on the cars I've ridden in and based on others general experiences around the 'tex. But in the end, like everyone says, it's pretty subjective. So do whatever you can to get rides in cars with various setups. That's the only true way you'll know what you prefer...


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (G3T3I7)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I understand that ride quality is subjective, but is there aome actual, real truth to the fact that coilcovers set to the same height as a spring/shock combo will be more comfortable ????[HR][/HR]​How can a "fact" or a "truth" be subjective?
The answer would be .... ummm ... no.
If you want to get a spring/shock combo, get them. If you decide you'd rather go with coilovers instead, get coilovers. Get the best solution for your needs based on factual information, and not hype or subjective statements masquerading as fact.


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 10:19 AM 11-22-2002]


----------



## VW-BMW (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

"Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ?"
Depends on the car. The GT Corvette in the World Challenge is extremely competitive with springs and shocks.


----------



## G3T3I7 (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I understand that ride quality is subjective, but is there aome actual, real truth to the fact that coilcovers set to the same height as a spring/shock combo will be more comfortable ????
How can a "fact" or a "truth" be subjective?
The answer would be .... ummm ... no.
[Modified by f1forkvr6, 10:19 AM 11-22-2002][HR][/HR]​Yeah, I apologize for not making sense. I just want to know if coilovers have something besides being "matched" that makes the ride quality better than a cup-kit. I know this pisses a lot of people off about asking which one to get, but there's a fairly large price difference here, and if I remember correctly coilovers require some kind of maintenance in the winter months. You also have to continually get your car aligned every time you adjust them, which is a little costly.
I don't think I want to really bother with adjusting them, so they may not be worth it to me. However, if the ride quality is better, then it would probably be worth it. I think I just need to keep searching for people with different set-ups around here so I can feel them for myself.


[Modified by G3T3I7, 5:01 PM 11-22-2002]


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (G3T3I7)*

No personal experience here, but the Eibach kits are reportedly pretty darn comfortable and do offer noticeably improved comfort - just make sure you add a big rear bar with whatever solution you get and you'll be happy with the handling. Eibach is a good company, that makes quality stuff. If you are concerned about comfort, then this may be the direction you want to go.


----------



## captainoblivious (Aug 24, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

I've never liked Eibach. I'm not going to knock there quality, but I have never liked there springs, in any Eibach equipped vehicle I've driven/rode in.
And furthermore, whoever had my GTI before I bought it and put in Eibach's without changing the struts was an idiot.


----------



## dbottles (Aug 15, 2002)

*The mecanics of springs (G3T3I7)*

OK everyone springs are springs no mater how they mount on the strut. The only differance between coilovers and "normal" struts is how the spring mounts to the tube. On a coil over the spring seats on a movable metal ring threaded to the strut, on the std strut the spring seats on a non movable metal part welded or pressed to the strut tube. Thus the only change in ride quality between the two is the amount of flex in the metal ring vs the metal seat and for most pratical discusions there is no flex. Thus there is NO RIDE DIFFRANCE between the two if using the same spring. 
Ride quality of the strut is due to spring rate and shock rate. Who ever says the coilovers are less harsh has a diffrent spring and shock in the coilover than in the other option so yes it may be less harsh, because the spring or shock is less harsh not because it is a coilover. 
If you would like to have a nice ride with coilovers or with out, use a shock that is a bit soft in compression but has lots of damping in rebound with a progressive spring that starts about 25% stiffer than stock and ends say 1.5 times as stiff as it compresses. Some good anti roll bars (swaybar) will keep the leaning down and you will be good to go. 
For the record I do have DMS coilovers on my car but I know dam well the ride comfort is provided by the shocks and the double progressive springs, not the spring seats. 
Why Belive me here is some reading - by VWmotorsports
http://www.rallypartsireland.com/TechInfo/Guide to Dampers.pdf
http://www.rallypartsireland.com/TechInfo/SpecsheetG4KTarmac010917 MtH.pdf
Derek


----------



## lacuna (May 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (G3T3I7)*

f1forkvw and burdelli,
how does one tell before purchasing a set of spring/shocks or coilovers what kind of relative ride quality/handling it will give. is there a measurement for spring rates or dampening that can be compared from one product to the next?
i'm in the process of selecting a suspention setup for my car and i'd like to know how to go about comparing products intelligently, not just on the "i heard these were cool" basis...


----------



## captainoblivious (Aug 24, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (lacuna)*

quote:[HR][/HR]f1forkvw and burdelli,
how does one tell before purchasing a set of spring/shocks or coilovers what kind of relative ride quality/handling it will give. is there a measurement for spring rates or dampening that can be compared from one product to the next?...[HR][/HR]​General rule:
stiffer spring = better handling, harsher ride
softer spring = more comfort but not as good handling
_that applies to linear spring rates, as progress springs have a varying spring rate _ 
[edit]
Heres for some reading:
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_springs.lasso
[/edit]


[Modified by captainoblivious, 7:28 AM 11-23-2002]


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (captainoblivious)*

I agree with this general rule http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

Actually, comfort for the VR6 is NOT all that subjective. I've had Koni struts w/ Neuspeed Softsport (220#front); I liked it initially, but eventually outgrew them (too swimmy on the freeway, bottomed out, fairly comfortable). I went for the Shine setup (300# front); did not like at all; the spring rate felt great for the handling of the car, but small cracks in the road hurt like hell. I settled on H&R coilovers (400# front) and love love love them. Very comfortable, handling much better than the previous setups [I will qualify my tuning by saying I tried many combos of swaybars on and off, different sizes, Shine's bar, etc. during each set of springs/shocks/coilovers]. Eventually I started playing around with ride height (so nice to be able to do that). I found the H&Rs like to be around a 1.5" drop, and found a sweet-spot where the rear beam of the car steers in corners - as VW intended. If I raise or lower either end by 3/16" this effect goes away; it's THAT sensative. I never thought my car would ever be able to handle as well as it does. I also have second hand experience with Bilstein race springs/strut, and PSS9s; The PSS9s and H&Rs feel nearly the same, and the various springs also all feel inadequate in the comfort department. Mthis! knocked off over a second at Willow Springs when he traded in his very stiff Bilstein race/struts for comfy PSS9s. And his car railed before! In short - I can't encourage you enough to fork over for coilovers.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Actually, comfort for the VR6 is NOT all that subjective.[HR][/HR]​Hmmm ....
quote:[HR][/HR]I liked it initially.....did not like at all ..... and love love love them ....[HR][/HR]​Those qualifications sound pretty subjective to me ... not sure how you can quantify like & love love love








You might want to re-read this
before you state so unequivocably:
quote:[HR][/HR]In short - I can't encourage you enough to fork over for coilovers.[HR][/HR]​Especially since MOST of our cars spend far more time commuting too and from work/school and home. But if you have $$$ to burn ..... send some my way http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

All I meant was when my freinds say this feels too stiff I usually agree; and when they say too soft - I'm there too. Not sure what you meant with the commuter comment; I love love love my coilovers because they are comfortable on my hour commute, and comfortable on the track too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

no one needs money to burn to afford quality coilovers anymore. PSS bilsteins are $899 retail. they've done an amazing job at matching spring rate with valving. i don't know why anyone would risk a spring shock combo with a fixed height, when these exist. SRS might be comfy on your Passat, but on MKIII VR6 they shook the dust off his dash over expansion joints. i feel it's way harder to find and trust a company to match his spring with a recommended shock, than it is to trust a proven company making a complete system. when my car recieved PSS9's, my disc player lost 90% of it's skipping and my wife put away her jog bras. not to mentioned my lowered times at the (roadcouse) track.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (M this 1!)*

drader:
The commuting comment meant that most of our cars spend the majority of the time on the street (commuting to wherever), as opposed to on the track or autox course.
M:
I guess the whole point of this thread is to find what works for you and your vehicle. If it's coilovers GREAT. If it's springs/shocks GREAT. Just ask questions, challenge the hype EVERY suspension recommendation carries with it, and change things if you don't like what you currently have.
I've heard great things about the PSS9s, it's just that they were introduced after I made my suspension changes. If I were shopping for suspension upgrades today they would merit serious consideration. Since I'm happy with what I have, I see no need to change.
I agree that you want to go with a system that has been researched and developed by a knowledgeable bunch of folks. That's exactly what brought me to SRS 12+ years ago ... they know suspensions, and suspension components (hell they've been designing this stuff for many, many years) -- and they know VWs. As a plus, just as you've discovered, when spring rates are matched with quality dampening (like Bilstein, Koni, etc…) improved handling can, in fact, be comfortable.


----------



## burdelli (May 3, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Actually, comfort for the VR6 is NOT all that subjective. I've had Koni struts w/ Neuspeed Softsport (220#front); I liked it initially, but eventually outgrew them (too swimmy on the freeway, bottomed out, fairly comfortable). I went for the Shine setup (300# front); did not like at all; the spring rate felt great for the handling of the car, but small cracks in the road hurt like hell. I settled on H&R coilovers (400# front) and love love love them. Very comfortable, handling much better than the previous setups [I will qualify my tuning by saying I tried many combos of swaybars on and off, different sizes, Shine's bar, etc. during each set of springs/shocks/coilovers]. Eventually I started playing around with ride height (so nice to be able to do that). I found the H&Rs like to be around a 1.5" drop, and found a sweet-spot where the rear beam of the car steers in corners - as VW intended. If I raise or lower either end by 3/16" this effect goes away; it's THAT sensative. I never thought my car would ever be able to handle as well as it does. I also have second hand experience with Bilstein race springs/strut, and PSS9s; The PSS9s and H&Rs feel nearly the same, and the various springs also all feel inadequate in the comfort department. Mthis! knocked off over a second at Willow Springs when he traded in his very stiff Bilstein race/struts for comfy PSS9s. And his car railed before! In short - I can't encourage you enough to fork over for coilovers.[HR][/HR]​It's so hard for me to describe what I've been trying to say, but this post pretty much sums it up. Now, I'm not sure of the reasons behind this because I don't have an in depth and specific knowledge of coilover systems and their engineering. But why is it that when putting 400+ lbs springs on coils it _usually_ feels more comfortable than spring/shock combos? If I remember correctly most coilover brands use spring rates around that number. Can the comfort be solely based on the specific spring/shock matching? I can't imagine so. That's why I want to think that the engineering behind coils also contributes...








Someone more tech savy, please educate me!


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (burdelli)*

Let me try to give you my caveman explanation for why coilovers are more comfortable:
A "spring rate" is roughly a measurement of tension over a change in distance. A coilover feels better because the spring is longer, has more coils, and has longer to travel before the coils bottom out. Think of squeezing a very hard little spring in your hand... now stack two of them and squeeze: the "spring rate" stayed the same, but it feels softer (up to a point). It's simply a matter of leverage and using the suspension travel efficiently. Normal spring/strut combos are limited by the spring's factory mounting position, so they have a hard time finding a balance between softness and chassis-supporting stiffness for their range of travel.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]A coilover feels better because the spring is longer, has more coils, and has longer to travel before the coils bottom out.[HR][/HR]​Sigh .....
Spring design (at a minimum) includes the following design variables:
- Wire Material
- Wire Diameter
- Number of Coils
- Physical dimensions (diameter of the coils, and free length)
Without getting overly verbose, it is possible to have a spring with 5 coils, have the same rate, a higher rate, or a lower rate, than a spring with 7 coils (or 4 coils, or 9 coils ...), by varying the wire material, or wire diameter.
A particular coilover, for a particular vehicle, may "feel" better, because the spring rate is more suited to that persons perceived comfort level. Spring rate is directly related to springs total design, not just it's free length and number of coils. And as we've all learned, coil springs can be mounted on height adjustable dampeners (coilovers/coilover sleeves), or on static height dampeners (struts/shocks).


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 1:42 PM 11-26-2002]


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

I did say "caveman", and it is true that coilovers are longer and have more coils than regular springs. I think you're giving too much credit to spring manufactures; the materials used in both standard springs and coilovers are very very similar because it's cheap. If H&R could just make a better standard spring to simulate different proportions don't you think they would?


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I did say "caveman", and it is true that coilovers are longer and have more coils than regular springs.[HR][/HR]​Some may be, others are not.
quote:[HR][/HR]... the materials used in both standard springs and coilovers are very very similar because it's cheap.[HR][/HR]​I know that these materials are somewhat similar from manufacturer to manufacturer, but I doubt that the primary selection criteria is expense.
quote:[HR][/HR]If H&R could just make a better standard spring to simulate different proportions don't you think they would?[HR][/HR]​They do. It's called a spring - with an OE diameter - in spring rates that match your vehicle. Do you think that H&R only makes coilover kits?










[Modified by f1forkvr6, 2:26 PM 11-26-2002]


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

You can try any OE standard sized spring, from any company, at any spring rate on your VW - none of them will have the comfort of a typical coilover AND keep the car as flat . Why? Proportions. Period. Comfy OE sized springs bottom out. Is this so hard to understand? Why are you in denial over proportions? And why don't your smarty-pants books have grease on them?


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

Relax with the personal attacks ... it's pointless. We're all here to exchange information -- not start a pissing contest. Claims without factual basis, or objective information to susbstantiate them, will be challenged by myself and others on the Vortex. It's nothing personal. If we didn't do this, we'd all have "slick50" in our vehicles, and the "tornado" in our intake systems








By the way, any spring that are too soft, and/or too short for a given application will bottom out. It doesn't matter one bit how they're attached to a vehicle.


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

Slick 50?!?! That stuff actually made my Karmann Ghia run good! I was just playn' with ya - no offense meant, and none taken.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

Gotta come clean ...
Back in 1991 I put a bottle of Slick50 in my '87 Jetta ... I even put the stupid sticker on my window (THAT was really cool







). Fortunately, no harm done. Live and learn, right?
Cheers








PS -- Always wanted a Ghia ... my Grandfather had a Green one. I thought it was one of the coolest cars around.


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 4:53 PM 11-26-2002]


----------



## dbottles (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

drader, you are sooo close... the real number is to mesure the distance between each coil and then mutiply by the number of coils. The grater the final number the less likely the spring will bind or in your words bottom out. 
I had one coilover spring with little pissant short springs, even shorter than the stock springs. That is why I am working hard to try and point out what really makes the stuff work, so others can go and ask good questions and get good stuff. 
I have little doubt that if we took 5 coilover kits and 5 spring insert kits out and tested them the coilover kits would kick butt. Because coilover kits are preceved and possisioned as upmarket from the std spring/insert so the builders do a better job on them as it is a premium product in the marketing since. But there are still crappy coilovers, like the ones I had. 
As to cracks in the pavment hurting, well the topmount, the bushings and the tire side wall should have more of an effect on that then the springs. 
Derek


----------



## 2.0LGtiPwr (Mar 23, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (dbottles)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Because coilover kits are preceved and possisioned as upmarket from the std spring/insert so the builders do a better job on them as it is a premium product in the marketing since. But there are still crappy coilovers, like the ones I had. [HR][/HR]​You make a point that the "builders do a better job" in coilovers. I am of the opinion that while a coilover kit will give the customer more options to play with their suspension - meaning more labor goes into them to make them height adjustable, I think the "better job" being done in coilovers is the job of hype. Hype up a new kit - more people buy it = more $$$. I'm not knocking any company that produces coilovers it's just that I, no matter how long I thought about it, could not come to terms with spending $1200/ 1300 on a set of coilovers. Due in part to money restraints and being logical. 
I just don't see how many of these kits cost as much as they do


----------



## G3T3I7 (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (2.0LGtiPwr)*

Ok, well I've narrowed it down to either the Apex 1.75" Kit, KW Sport kit (1.5"?), or the Bilstien PSS kit (1.75" at lowest). Since all are pretty much "matched" kits, which one will be the most comfortable overall ? I really want to lower the car 1.75", it just looks and sounds like a good height, but want the best comfort possible and want the car to handle like it's on rails. So, after reading the mixed opinions above, can anyone help me here ?
Thanks.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (2.0LGtiPwr)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I think the "better job" being done in coilovers is the job of hype. Hype up a new kit - more people buy it = more $$$.[HR][/HR]​That's precisely one of the points I've been trying to make. I agree. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

it is a fairly valid point. but once again, i think the PSS system snubs that argument out. you also have this forum to find some answers to how something rides WAY before dishing out on anything. and as some of you are aware, people on here piss and moan if it was shipped with a nick, let alone if it road far worse than advertised.


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (M this 1!)*

dbottles- thanks for clarifying. I'd like to add to the whole "binding" argument with standard springs: the definition of spring-rate is how much force is required to compress a spring one inch. So a 400lb coil will need two inches of squeeze to support 800lbs (roughly the front corner load of my VR6.) In another 3 inches of travel to the bump-stop that spring is supporting 2000lbs, or the weight of my first Rabbit GTI. An OE sized spring at 200lbs (similar to a Neuspeed "softsport") requires four inches of compression to support the corner of my VR6. In another 3 inches of travel it can support 1000lbs. The problem is - because it has already compressed so much just to settle - the coils will hit each other long before it hits the bump-stop. This makes the handling unpredictable when the wheel is travelling at it's extremes. Add to all this most people want their cars low, stiff and comfy and spring-makers are forced to bastardize the OE design to fit on that fixed perch.


----------



## ions (Feb 26, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (M this 1!)*

"you also have this forum to find some answers to how something rides WAY before dishing out on anything" - From M this 1
The only problem with that is that some form of feedback are subjective. For instance I see the term "harsh" bandied about when Shine is mentioned. I DO NOT find this setup harsh even when I have to urinate in a very demanding way. I've been riding on SRS for about a year and a half now I guess and have never wished for a softer ride. But that's just me and FWIW I've only had a couple passengers complain while in the car. They were told to shut their pie holes. My car if they don't like the ride they know where the door is







. But realistically it really has only been two complaints in 1.5 years.
Personally I find a poor handling car harsh no matter the spring rate. 
You want a soft ride? Buy a Snoop DeVille. 
JMO.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The problem is - because it has already compressed so much just to settle - the coils will hit each other long before it hits the bump-stop.[HR][/HR]​Only if the spring is poorly designed. That's why all of the things I've mentioned previously are crucial to spring design - especially wire diameter and number of coils. The spring in your example, could have been made with fewer coils. Would this increase the spring rate? Assuming all other design variable are held constant, of course ... part of the design trade-off that's been beaten to death in this thread.
As far as bastardizing spring design, this happens no matter what perch the springs are made to fit -- OE diameter perches, or 2.5" diameter perches. The real problem is most folks want improved handling 2+" of lowering and near factory ride compliance. These desires are _in general_ mutually exclusive.


----------



## AxeAngel (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

WOW great info guys, absolutely great.
I knew very little about springs before, and still know very little now, but albeit a little more.
don't want to beat a dead horse and fuel the flames BUT i have two questions.
firstly how is tire sidewall affected into this all. i ask because i went from stock 15s to 225/45/17s perfromance tires. and ride quality greatly diminished.
if money was no object what would be the ideal kit for a 1-1.5" drop in terms of ride quality and handling.
when i mean money is no object - i have already started to source parts for my quattro upgrade


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (AxeAngel)*

Tire sidewall has a direct effect on ride quality. In general, a taller tire will have a softer, more compliant ride (excluding purpose built rally tires, reinforced truck tires, etc ...). The trade off here is diminished handling. I'm not surprised going from 15" to 17" gave you a harsher ride.
As far as your suspension question, there are a number of options that will fit your needs - but I'm not about to try to define "ideal kit". That's what started this whole mess








Talk to lots of people, and drive as many different suspension packages as you can. Remember the two extremes -- race-car like handling won't give you OE ride compliance, and OE ride compliance won't give you race-car like handling. Most solutions (dare I say all "street' kits) fall between these two extremes.


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Only if the spring is poorly designed. That's why all of the things I've mentioned previously are crucial to spring design - especially wire diameter and number of coils. The spring in your example, could have been made with fewer coils. Would this increase the spring rate? Assuming all other design variable are held constant, of course ... part of the design trade-off that's been beaten to death in this thread.
[HR][/HR]​But an OE sized spring has to:
1. be 1.5" lower so the customer's car looks cool, AND
2. not rattle around when the car is lifted
Not being able to set your perch height, and not having "helper-springs" is why an OE sized spring can not compete with coilovers, right? I do understand your argument of being able to design any shaped spring to match any other shaped spring, but OE sized springs and coilovers aren't performing under identical situations.


[Modified by drader, 7:38 PM 12-1-2002]


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (AxeAngel)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
firstly how is tire sidewall affected into this all. [HR][/HR]​I got tired of my cheap, bald 17" Parada's beating me up, so I put on 15" Falcon Azenas for Winter. The Azenas have a 1" thick sidewall. To my dismay they were just as uncomfortable as the Paradas! At least they stick. But even with a similar [lacking] comfort level cornering is a little mushy compared with 17s.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]But an OE sized spring has to:
1. be 1.5" lower so the customer's car looks cool, AND
2. not rattle around when the car is lifted
Not being able to set your perch height, and not having "helper-springs" is why an OE sized spring can not compete with coilovers, right?[HR][/HR]​By varying either the spring wire diameter, coil pitch (spacing between the coils), or both, a spring can be made into an infinite number of spring rate, free-length combinations. It is quite possible to design a spring, that will accommodate these two needs. Additionally, a tuner also has the ability to choose different length shocks/struts (e.g. Bilstein HD vs. Bilstein Sport), to accommodate #2.
quote:[HR][/HR]... but OE sized springs and coilovers aren't performing under identical situations.[HR][/HR]​Not sure what you mean.


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

I forgot there were 2 size Bilsteins. Even so there are not an endless amount of spring-rates to choose from because the spring has to be a certain size uncompressed (so it doesn't rattle), and a certain size when it has an 800lb load on it (so the car is the right height parked); this limits the range to (I'm just guessing) 200 to 250 lbs, for a slightly lowered car, and Shine's 300 is only possible because he doesn't lower the car - in fact mine looked about 1/4" taller than stock in the front. Imagine how tall a Golf would be with 400lb OE springs! Anyway, thanks for having one of the more interesting conversations on Vortex.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (drader)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Even so there are not an endless amount of spring-rates to choose from because the spring has to be a certain size uncompressed (so it doesn't rattle), and a certain size when it has an 800lb load on it (so the car is the right height parked); this limits the range to (I'm just guessing) 200 to 250 lbs, for a slightly lowered car, and Shine's 300 is only possible because he doesn't lower the car - in fact mine looked about 1/4" taller than stock in the front. Imagine how tall a Golf would be with 400lb OE springs![HR][/HR]​Know what? Rather than go through this point-by-point, lets just agree to disagree ... we could go on for months at this rate.
quote:[HR][/HR]Anyway, thanks for having one of the more interesting conversations on Vortex.







[HR][/HR]​Cheers


----------



## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

see, look at that. no bombs dropped, no lives lost. just discussing to better all. too bad it's not like that everywhere...
now i'm not going to go eat a bowl of tofu over it, but it's still good to see. you get my point.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (M this 1!)*

Yep -- good discussion.
For anyone that has followed this thing this far, check out this link:
http://www.pontiacracing.net/js_coil_spring_rate.htm
It let's you play with spring design variables such as:
Number of Active Coils
Wire Diameter
Outside Diameter of Spring
Free Length
It uses the following formula to calculate Spring Rate.
*spring rate = 
modulus of spring steel X wire diameter^4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
8 X number of active coils X mean coil diameter^3*

_modulus of spring steel = 11,250,000 pounds/inch2 = 78,500 newtons/millimeter^2 _
It also calculates Pressure at Compressed Length
Have fun designing your own springs -- happy holidays all








*edit for bad html tags


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 10:45 AM 12-4-2002]


----------



## burdelli (May 3, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (f1forkvr6)*

I agree, great discussion, very helpful.


----------



## Das GTI (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

bump


----------



## GTI2.0 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (Das GTI)*

I have bilstein sport stuts with weitec springs off of the tx kit... I dident like the weitec tx kit much just because it was harsh ride and 3 out or fhe 4 stuts blew out with in 1/2 a year of purchasing off of a fellow vortex member. The bilsteins have a luxury feel to them even with the stiff springs. My car doesent rattle at all... But because you cant just get weitec springs i would get some H&R's or somthing.... Mad props to bilstien for making a great stut oh and did I add they have a lifetime warrenty on them


















[Modified by GTI2.0, 8:16 PM 12-11-2002]


----------



## basshead22 (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (GTI2.0)*

Wow, good thread just finished reading it.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## SRSVW (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (basshead22)*

The basic question is worded wrong! It should ask if there is any street coilover that can match a good shock\spring setup,and the answer is a resounding no as the situation currently exists. Because a coilover setup almost always increases unspring weight significantly,it cant ride as well and the car will handle best at only one very specific height(one most coilover kits wont even go to) ,so the adjustments are purely liability.(it can easily be set wrong).Once the spring rate is chosen properly and the ride height is proper(Assuming proper damping),that leaves coilovers as second best for ride,handling,and durability,and price.
Coilovers arent used on race cars to adjust height. That is the basic engineering.
They are only used to corner balance the car for different circuits.
We adjust the height to within .020 inches and a good driver can feel the difference if we raise,or lower it even 1\8 of an inch. Coilovers are pure marketing and cant compete with a good spring\shock setup! I have personally tested many and none were even remotely close. They are pure marketing hype to get your money.
Dick Shine


----------



## Tuba_Transport (Jul 4, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (SRSVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ They are pure marketing hype to get your money.
Dick Shine

Speaking of which.


----------



## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (davedave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *davedave* »_its application-dependent for best results.
the reson I say this is that I had an A3 GTI VR6 with H&R Coils and Autotech rear sway bar. 
then I got an 88 GLI with Tokico blues and Eibach springs, stock sways.
the GLI handles far better than the A3 did. 


Thats an apple to oranges comparison. A2's are inherently better handling cars anyway. Especially comparing to a nose heavy Vr6 model. I have an A3 wwith B+G coilover and i got a Mk2 Jetta Coupe and i put that suspension on that car and it could easily run circles around the a3 with the same suspension.


----------



## BadassVW (Oct 16, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (SRSVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ The basic question is worded wrong! It should ask if there is any street coilover that can match a good shock\spring setup,and the answer is a resounding no as the situation currently exists. Because a coilover setup almost always increases unspring weight significantly,it cant ride as well and the car will handle best at only one very specific height(one most coilover kits wont even go to) ,so the adjustments are purely liability.(it can easily be set wrong).Once the spring rate is chosen properly and the ride height is proper(Assuming proper damping),that leaves coilovers as second best for ride,handling,and durability,and price.
Coilovers arent used on race cars to adjust height. That is the basic engineering.
They are only used to corner balance the car for different circuits.
We adjust the height to within .020 inches and a good driver can feel the difference if we raise,or lower it even 1\8 of an inch. Coilovers are pure marketing and cant compete with a good spring\shock setup! I have personally tested many and none were even remotely close. They are pure marketing hype to get your money.
Dick Shine


er, so you're saying my VW isn't a real racecar


----------



## dygoro (May 21, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (BadassVW)*

well that last reply shut everyone up for a whole year...
I want to dust off this discussion with one counter point, it just seems that every last person that has actually used a spring/ shock combo and then a coilover has been overwhelmingly impressed by the improvement in ride quality/ comfort with the coils
am I wrong?
another thing- it's been mentioned that allot of the 'jarring effect' depends more on the top mount (bushing?) and tire side wall
I am about to install H&R coils, I have a new set of VW motorsport bushings instead of the usual OEM to put in
I got these because of durability and I thought they would be a better match for the stiffer set up
I'm wondering though- are these going to make the ride more jarring than the softer ones or will it actually be the opposite case?


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (dygoro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dygoro* »_ ….. I want to dust off this discussion with one counter point, it just seems that every last person that has actually used a spring/ shock combo and then a coilover has been overwhelmingly impressed by the improvement in ride quality/ comfort with the coils
am I wrong?

Well, a year later we know more than what we knew a year ago, so there is pretty good answer (now) of why people are “overwhelmingly impressed” by the coilovers. In few words, reason one is that the expansive kits (1200$ and above) have dampers that are valved very, very well (for relative comfort), and the reason two is that the rear springs are in general a lot softer than what the advertising says. So, you have a not so stiff spring, combined with careful valving – there you go – great ride quality! If you purchase the same spring rates elsewhere, valve your existing dampers the same way as those coilover kits – I can guarantee you the exact same ride quality and handling feel.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (pyce)*

I've driven every MK4 coilover system, and my shine 350/180/no FSB/Race RSb handles better than all of them. And the ride is equal or better.


----------



## dygoro (May 21, 2001)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (tyrolkid)*

so by valved you mean a built in function of the shock?
Ive had my set for a while, youre not talking about adjustable damping right?
just the way they are configured when you get them?
so the handling seems like it could be comparable betwen shocks/ springs and coils but the ride quality leans slightly towards coils most of the time?


----------



## Flacker (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

I'm guessing that I will never have the time or energy to unravel the mysteries of suspension tuning. I read and I read, but it always breaks down into this subjective quagmire. What I'd like to see is some quantitative data.
Is there any real DATA that shows something like how different suspension parts placed on a MkIV compare to each other in terms of lap times, or even autocross times? And for adjustable systems, I'd like to see how the adjustments affect the times.


_Modified by Flacker at 4:54 PM 2-27-2006_


----------



## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

Keep hope alive bump


----------



## whizy (Aug 25, 2006)

*Re: (briang)*

I think if you have low budget .. get just springs & stay with 1.3 or 1.5" drop .. that might not do a big effect on your ride comfert & handling BUT it will gives a cool look on 17" wheels


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (whizy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whizy* »_I think if you have low budget .. get just springs & stay with 1.3 or 1.5" drop .. that might not do a big effect on your ride comfert & handling BUT it will gives a cool look on 17" wheels


this is a technical forum, MK4 forum is that way --->


----------



## T.O.racer (Dec 22, 2006)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Another factor for ride quailty that people are completely overlooking is the bumpstop. On a car I used to have I bought a used set of illuminas and they came with the bumpstops cut for increased shock travel that should in theory help the ride quality. Well I wasn't happy with the ride so I pulled them and cut more off which was a terrible idea. It felt like it was bottoming out over everything and anything I never realised that you're actually hitting the bumpstop over even minor bumps. I then put new full bumpstops in and it was night and day smoother. So most people when they install spring/strut combos reuse old wornout oem bumpstops probably cut them also. Compared to coilovers which have their own designed bumpstops that are matched to both the spring and shock.


----------



## 02blkgtivr6 (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (T.O.racer)*

I dunno if this had been mentioned, but coilover kits come with shortened shock bodies. Whereas a spring and strut combo will most liley run a regular sized shock body or only midly shortened. This difference makes coilovers more comfortable when riding at a lower ride height than a strut/spring combo riding at a lowered ride height. Riding at a stock ride height, you can easily get sport shocks and struts matched with heavy springs to ride just as comfy as coilovers. 
Running lowered springs on performance struts is not a great idea (unless you have sport spindles) because you throw off ur suspension geometry and you reduce your suspension travel significantly. Coilovers also throw off the suspension geometry, however, they reduce suspension travel by a lesser amount due to the shortened shock bodies. So if you are going lower, they are a better option if you can afford them. I fyou are staying at a stock ride height, matched shocks and struts will do just fine for handling and ride comfort.


----------



## longboa (Jul 1, 2006)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (Flacker)*

"What I'd like to see is some quantitative data.
Is there any real DATA that shows something like how different suspension parts placed on a MkIV compare to each other in terms of lap times, or even autocross times? And for adjustable systems, I'd like to see how the adjustments affect the times.
Modified by Flacker at 4:54 PM 2-27-2006"
Flacker, 
I have been unable to find any quantitative data. You may be interested in this thread on PW:
http://www.passatworld.com/for...leing
In it, some of the same people posting on the current thread have posted regarding the availability of their, um, "data."


----------



## gehr (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (longboa)*

Sounds like the same crap people harp on about here, no real information, just rhetoric and name calling........good to know (actually it's sad) that other forums suck as bad as Vortex.......maybe it's just a VW thing!


----------



## jo.jo (Jan 5, 2006)

Did you guys ever read the ENTIRE content in the FAQ thread? I mean EVERY thread included there, and all the posts in those threads? There is more data than what any other forum on earth can give you!


----------



## longboa (Jul 1, 2006)

*Re: (jo.jo)*

Well, ok then jojo. 
It sounds as if you are quite well read. Why don't you answer, or tell us which posts on which threads answer, Flackers questions?
As Flacker stated: 
"What I'd like to see is some quantitative data.
Is there any real DATA that shows something like how different suspension parts placed on a MkIV compare to each other in terms of lap times, or even autocross times? And for adjustable systems, I'd like to see how the adjustments affect the times."
Thanks in advance.



_Modified by longboa at 11:07 AM 1-5-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (longboa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *longboa* »_Well, ok then jojo. 
It sounds as if you are quite well read. Why don't you answer, or tell us which posts on which threads answer, Flackers questions?
As Flacker stated: 
"What I'd like to see is some quantitative data.
Is there any real DATA that shows something like how different suspension parts placed on a MkIV compare to each other in terms of lap times, or even autocross times? And for adjustable systems, I'd like to see how the adjustments affect the times."
Thanks in advance.

_Modified by longboa at 11:07 AM 1-5-2007_

The blind-test laptime comparison idea has been brought up again and again. It has never happened. It is not in the best interests of the various vendors to do this testing. For the big car magazines, it would be a logistical nightmare. The best you'll get is a few test runs from Tirerack.com which prove that OEM dampers suck and Koni's are worth the upgrade. Other than that all you have is talk.
A few vendors claim to have test results proving their superiority, but the results have never been posted nor verified by an outside party.

Still the simple grade 12 physics principles involved make it possible to predict which setups will hold the road best under certain conditions. Bottom line is that lowering without correcting geometry will limit the performance potential. To what degree does it limit the performance? That is the only debate...


----------



## longboa (Jul 1, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

So phatvw, 
Although I understand that you are basing your hypotheses on high school physics principles, I don't understand how you can be certain "that lowering without correcting geometry will limit the performance potential" if you don't know "to what degree it limits the performance." Is there some range of degrees within which the "debate" is taking place? If so, how did you arrive at that range?
While "performance potential" is only one of several variables I would consider in choosing a suspension, it is an important one to me. I would like to gain a better understanding of what degree or percentage change in performance might be expected due to lowering (or raising, as some have) ride height by say 1/2" vs. 1" vs 2", etc. Can you apply your physics principles to arrive at some numbers for my 04 FWD V6 Passat Sedan with ESC, as an example?
Thanks for sharing your expertise.

_Modified by longboa at 4:24 PM 1-6-2007_


_Modified by longboa at 4:33 PM 1-6-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (longboa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *longboa* »_So phatvw, 
Although I understand that you are basing your hypotheses on high school physics principles, I don't understand how you can be certain "that lowering without correcting geometry will limit the performance potential" if you don't know "to what degree it limits the performance." Is there some range of degrees within which the "debate" is taking place? If so, how did you arrive at that range?
While "performance potential" is only one of several variables I would consider in choosing a suspension, it is an important one to me. I would like to gain a better understanding of what degree or percentage change in performance might be expected due to lowering (or raising, as some have) ride height by say 1/2" vs. 1" vs 2", etc. Can you apply your physics principles to arrive at some numbers for my 04 FWD V6 Passat Sedan with ESC, as an example?
Thanks for sharing your expertise.



Go to your local library and look up William F. Milliken. Some great starter books on this stuff








The problem with determining how much a questionable modification limits the performance potential is how to measure performance. What do "controlled conditions" mean? Everyone has a different opinion.
In my opinion, the most reliable measurement that automakers are using today isn't the skidpad or the slalom times, but lap times at the Nurburgring. With enough training in a particular car, a professional driver can really show which cars shine, and which cars don't.
That kind of test is obviously not practical for us. But iff you could do the test, and it was proven that a lowered suspension increased the lap time by 5 seconds, would you even care? 10 seconds? 20 seconds?



_Modified by phatvw at 5:17 PM 1-6-2007_


----------



## longboa (Jul 1, 2006)

So phatvw, 
You are unable to provide any estimates of degrees or percentage differences in performance potential between suspension systems and heights, even just based on physics principles? Well, thanks for trying to answer my questions.
As for your questions. Based on the lap times in your Nurburgring link, I'm assuming it would take at least 9 minutes, or 540 seconds for my car to complete one lap. Five seconds would be less than a 1% difference, 10 seconds less than 2%, and 20 seconds less than 4%. So, yes, it would be interesting to know if "a lowered suspension increased the lap time" by those amounts.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (longboa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *longboa* »_Can you apply your physics principles to arrive at some numbers for my 04 FWD V6 Passat Sedan with ESC, as an example?

Why rely on theory? All you need to do is install the proper adjustable suspension bits and turn some lap times - do you volunteer? Lacking a "test" physics is all we have to go on ... and the physics of lowering a nose-heavy, McPherson strut front end has been documented quite clearly here on the Vortex, and in many other venues .... 


_Modified by f1forkvr6 at 8:35 PM 1-7-2007_


----------



## longboa (Jul 1, 2006)

So you can't complete any calculations based on your documented physics principles either, f1forkvr6?
Can anyone?


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (longboa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *longboa* »_So you can't complete any calculations based on your documented physics principles either, f1forkvr6?
Can anyone?








To many variables for a nice neat model and result - sometimes you need to trust the evidence that is in front of you rather than numbers from your calculator ... turn some laps and report back.
Edit - poke around in the FAQ - there are threads that document what happens to the roll couple when suspension geometry is altered by lowering ... 


_Modified by f1forkvr6 at 9:56 PM 1-7-2007_


----------



## longboa (Jul 1, 2006)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*

Thanks, again. I read the FAQ previously. But nowhere did I see even hypothetical numerical estimates of degrees or percentage differences in performance potential between suspension systems and heights, much less any data from an even quasi-controlled study.
Therefore, I am forced to conclude that when people say that lowering or raising influences performance potential, they have no idea how much. Could it be as little as less than 1% of performance potential per inch of ride height? I mean, I just can't find any data or any calculations.


_Modified by longboa at 7:23 PM 1-7-2007_


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (longboa)*

Call Mike P at Tyrolsport, or Dick Shine at Shine racing - they'll have real world estimates based on competition. Let us know what YOU find out








Edit:
If all you've read is the FAQ Thread (phatvw's excellent starting point), try this one - it's got a dead link in "the" FAQ thread at the top of this forum.
http://forums.mwerks.com/zerothread?id=1363022
If you've read the thread in the link above end to end, then please - add to our collective wisdom rather than arguing about who has, or who has not calculated the effects of lowering your car to the precise numerical answer you are looking for.


_Modified by f1forkvr6 at 9:45 AM 1-8-2007_


----------



## ewongkaizen (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: (longboa)*

Longboa:
As mentioned previosly...
Start with William F. Milliken....
There should be enough info there to set up a theoretical model based on different "ride heights" and "spring rates" to get a ball park feel on say dx/dy on contact patch area.
For extra credit - show a dynamic model of contact patch shape in two dimensions....
None of this answers your question - as there are far too many variables to calculate - esp at the "high school physics" level you desire.
What Milliken et al WILL allow you to discover is that in fact lowering most VW strut suspensions does NOT lead to better handling.
If Milliken is too complicated - try Herb Adams.
And Dick Shine answered the question several posts back...


----------



## mcaselli (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (longboa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *longboa* »_Thanks, again. I read the FAQ previously. But nowhere did I see even hypothetical numerical estimates of degrees or percentage differences in performance potential between suspension systems and heights, much less any data from an even quasi-controlled study.
Therefore, I am forced to conclude that when people say that lowering or raising influences performance potential, they have no idea how much. Could it be as little as less than 1% of performance potential per inch of ride height? I mean, I just can't find any data or any calculations.

_Modified by longboa at 7:23 PM 1-7-2007_

Longboa-
i understand you are becoming frustrated by the lack of concrete numbers provided by the same people who pontificate so elloquently on principles of suspension design, and as a result that you may be inclined to think that these people are full of crap. I personally know a couple of them, and can vouch for their credibility.
As has been mentioned previously, there are WAY too many variables to come up with any concrete numbers in a back-of-envelope, "12th grade physics" kind of way. You really ought to look up the Milliken book, "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics." Even just staring at it its sheer mass sitting on the shelf will begin to give you an appreciation for what goes into handling performance.
Supposing you had all the information about the vehicle, spring rates, roll rates, shock rates, geometric data on linkages, ride heights, CG locations, corner weights (notice that the list is growing, but still manageable given enough time) you would still be missing what is possibly the most crucial data...comprehensive tire test data. All the suspension work we do comes down to controlling the orientation of the contact patch, and the vertical load distribution among the four tires.
I was just talking with a well respected engineer in the industry yesterday, who said that when he was building Champ cars he had a hard enough time getting a good set of tire data for race tires, to say nothing of trying to obtain the data for street tires. 
The kind of data that we're talking about likely hasn't ever been taken by anyone, even the manufacturers, for street tires.
--------------------
so this is why we, even the most educated and knowledgeable among us, talk in qualitative terms about the effects of various chassis setup changes--the data necessary to calculate the effects on paper simply isn't practical to obtain.
If you were going racing, you'd start out with what you thought was the best possible setup, based on the principles of suspension design laid out in books like the ones mentioned, and then you'd run laps-lots of them, and make one subtle change at a time, looking for its effects on lap time. even this isn't straight forward, because one change can have multiple and sometimes conflicting effects. This kind of testing is really expensive and time consuming.
As a business selling performance suspension parts for street cars, how much time are you going to spend running competitors setups, or setups you know shouldn't work well (or in the case of some vendors, setups that ought to work better), when you can just throw your product to market and have people buy it?
As a concerned buyer, the best thing to do is to educate yourself on the principles involved by reading a neutral text (like milliken, although its super heavy reading, or fred puhn's how to make your car handle, or caroll smith's tune to win), then figure out which products still look interesting to you, and go try them.
----------------
now for some practical advice, though its all been stated before,
lowering the front of one of these cars is ALWAYS going to be bad, unless you're using some other piece of kit, like a sport lowering spindle, to correct the geometric problems that arise from lowering. Of course, in making that statement, i've already made an assumption, based on experience, that the change in CG height from lowering the car does not make up for the geometric problems that arise from lowering the car. 
In my experience, cars with "performance" lowering springs and "performance" shocks, without corrective lowering spindles, tend to handle WORSE than the factory configuration, despite many owners telling you just the opposite...the placebo effect is very evident in these individuals.
You can get fantastic handling at the factory ride height by careful selection of springs, swaybars, and shocks. This is how SRS has generated such a loyal following. Dick has more years doing this than i have breathing (sorry, Shine), and he's gotten pretty damn good at it.
i guess this is how i do things, i go away from the vortex for a long damn time, then i drop a seventeen page bomb when i get back.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (mcaselli)*

Mcaselli, that was an great post. Poignant, yet comprehensive. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## scottzg (Jul 27, 2006)

*Re: (longboa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *longboa* »_Thanks, again. I read the FAQ previously. But nowhere did I see even hypothetical numerical estimates of degrees or percentage differences in performance potential between suspension systems and heights, much less any data from an even quasi-controlled study.
Therefore, I am forced to conclude that when people say that lowering or raising influences performance potential, they have no idea how much. Could it be as little as less than 1% of performance potential per inch of ride height? I mean, I just can't find any data or any calculations.

_Modified by longboa at 7:23 PM 1-7-2007_

why don't you go out and really learn how to handle a car, then try a bunch of different set ups and draw your own conclusions? It's the only way to really understand what makes a good handling car.
Of course you won't have any numbers to share with noobs on the vortex... so its probably a waste of time.


----------



## VeeDubbDood (Apr 13, 2007)

*vmaxx?*

anyone hear of the vmaxx coilovers? $600. Its a pretty sweet deal. I didn't read the whole discussion so i dont know if it was already discussed.


----------



## jamdub (Aug 1, 2007)

*BUMP*

bump for great info that more idiots like me should read.


----------



## GTI PSYCHO (Dec 17, 2001)

*Re: BUMP (jamdub)*

awesome info!!!


----------



## blackMKAY3 (Sep 9, 2006)

*Re: BUMP (GTI PSYCHO)*

I love this information, thanks for clearing a lot of my questions http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Big thumbs-up for you guys trying to help us youngsters


----------



## Ld7w_VR (Apr 21, 2006)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

interesting and helpfull seeing how i dont know what i want to get. thanks


----------



## KYLEMORRISON (Jan 9, 2007)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (VR6VDub172)*

i have a mk4 w bilstein sports and h&r race. i love the way it handles. ride isnt bad. but i want lower. should i tryn find lower springs or go for coils... if i go w coils what would you say is better than my set up. and why?


----------



## 5thgearwolfy (Sep 26, 2008)

*Re: Can a Spring Shock Combo Copete with Coilovers ? (darrenewest)*

Hey I didnt read any of the posts I'm just giving you my opinion on the original question. Yes shock spring combos can compete with coilovers I know this because I have shock spring combos and all my other buddies have coils on Gti's and other cars as well. My car is very competitive against theirs. As far as ride comfort goes as long as you buy a high quality product from a respectable company, you will get ride comfort along with performance. I have bilsten sport shocks with neuspeed race springs. This is an expensive shock spring combo but it is justified. The neuspeed race springs are designed to go on bilstein sport shocks so they fit perfectly, furthermore when neuspeed receives the shocks from bilstein they tinker with it so it will perfectly fit the specific spring they are sending you. This combo gives me better ride quality then any other suspension improved car I have ever sat in while at the same time allowing me to be very competitive against anyone with coils.


----------



## RUSLAND (Mar 28, 2010)

Just put on Neuspeed sport springs with original shocks 1.8" drop, feels really nice,more stable, and not really rough. Im loving it!~!!!http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?saved=1


----------



## docterelliott (Sep 29, 2007)

i know this thread is old but its in the FAQ's so i know SOMBODYS got to look at it.
so ive gatherd from this thread that:

A. coilovers offer a more comfortable ride than spring/shock combo.

and 
B. coilovers have a higher spring rate than spring/shock combos.

so how then do coilovers achieve this better ride quality if they have higher spring rates?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

docterelliott said:


> i know this thread is old but its in the FAQ's so i know SOMBODYS got to look at it.
> so ive gatherd from this thread that:
> 
> A. coilovers offer a more comfortable ride than spring/shock combo.
> ...


Simple; they DON'T.

You have spring rates, you have damping curves as a function of suspension compression or rebound velocity and which are established by shim stacks inside the dampers. None of this has anything to do with whether the coil spring is "coil-over" (installed around the outside of the damper - and strictly speaking, a bone stock MacPherson strut assembly is a "coil-over" because the spring is installed around the outside of the damper), or has the spring mounted separately from the damper but still mechanically linked to wheel travel through the movement of the suspension arms. None of this has anything to do with the rate chosen for the spring that you install on the vehicle. You can pick any spring rate you like regardless of how the coil spring is installed.

What is actually commercially available in the marketplace, is of course quite another matter. It may so happen that the coil-overs that are actually available, have spring rates higher than the springs that are actually available for that vehicle. But that's not what the terminology means. We are talking about the concept of operation of a "coil-over" versus a separate (but mechanically linked) spring and damper.

Some would say that "coil-overs" have adjustable ride height because the body of the damper is threaded with collars so that the ride height can be adjusted. Big deal. You can do the same thing with separate coil springs ... either via threaded/adjustable spring perches or simply by putting in (and changing out) spacers between the spring and the body of the vehicle.


----------



## docterelliott (Sep 29, 2007)

then why are people saying "from their experience" that the coil over setups ride smoother? is it because the shock rod is designed to be lower than the average indipendant shock thus giving the same amount of travel and stroke for being lowered? is it because the coil over setups come with the shocks valved and designed for that specific spring rate? 

i currently have GC coil overs (450 fr/350rr) with bilstein sports and it rides super rough. broken up areas in the street will shake my whole car. not only that but my car isnt even that low...maybe 2.5" -3 but definatly not stanced out and i have almost no shock travel and the shock bottoms out when i hit a dip or bump at high speeds. this is why ive been looking into coilovers because i would assume since it is designed to be low that the shock would have more stroke or be designed lower or something so that there is still enough travel when the vehicle is lowered.


----------



## pm5395 (Mar 17, 2009)

*nice lower ride*

for my mk4 I used to have some race springs with BS Sport dampers. 1.8-2" drop (about 3 after my strut mounts disintegrated over time ) Really fantastic handling. I had 17" wheels. 16" would have been an improvement. I used a variety of perfrmc tires but always keep the tire pressure low at 27-29psig. The more standard-profile tires at low pressure compensate nicely for the stiffer shocks. If you use bigger wheels you will have to increase the tire pressure to avoid bending a rim. and will result in a harsh ride. Also consider total undamped weight. A lot of times bigger diameter wheels and upgraded brakes are heavier so that cuts down on performance and ride quality. Off-topic sort of but there is more to the equation than just the springs and dampers.


----------



## Nightrider (May 10, 2002)

docterelliott said:


> i currently have GC coil overs ... it rides super rough... my car isnt even that low...maybe 2.5" -3


Yes, actually your car is pretty low and that is why your ride is so rough. 

Some people get coilovers for corner balancing (performance) and others get them to go low ('looks'). You are never going to be able to have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## docterelliott (Sep 29, 2007)

then why do i here people say their coilovers ride nice? ive heard both sides say they ride like crap and they ride nice. i realize the ride will be rougher the lower you go but im trying to reduce the amount of that roughness by getting the right coilovers that give a smoother ride over OTHER coilovers.


----------



## pm5395 (Mar 17, 2009)

docterelliott said:


> then why do i here people say their coilovers ride nice? ive heard both sides say they ride like crap and they ride nice. i realize the ride will be rougher the lower you go but im trying to reduce the amount of that roughness by getting the right coilovers that give a smoother ride over OTHER coilovers.


Because coilover springs are longer than cup-kit springs they use less of their potential for a given impact. IMO lower than 1.5 drop is worth considering coilovers. They say you get what you pay for but many people seem to be happy with less expensive options. I tried a cheap option once but it ended up being more expensive 'cause it was so lousy I had to changevit out.

Too bad we can't try before we buy.


----------



## Nightrider (May 10, 2002)

> Too bad we can't try before we buy


Not true. You can, like myself and many others have, contact people locally (via local forums) that have a setup you are considering and ask for a ride. Or, if you are into _performance_ handling, you can find people at auto-x events or track days. :beer:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

docterelliott said:


> then why are people saying "from their experience" that the coil over setups ride smoother? is it because the shock rod is designed to be lower than the average indipendant shock thus giving the same amount of travel and stroke for being lowered? is it because the coil over setups come with the shocks valved and designed for that specific spring rate?
> 
> i currently have GC coil overs (450 fr/350rr) with bilstein sports and it rides super rough. broken up areas in the street will shake my whole car. not only that but my car isnt even that low...maybe 2.5" -3 but definatly not stanced out and i have almost no shock travel and the shock bottoms out when i hit a dip or bump at high speeds. this is why ive been looking into coilovers because i would assume since it is designed to be low that the shock would have more stroke or be designed lower or something so that there is still enough travel when the vehicle is lowered.


Forget about coilover or not, because it doesn't matter. Just look at damping rates and also look at the type of pavement people are talking about when they say they have a "smooth ride".

If we are talking about minor pavement irregularities then a damper with low damping rates will give a smooth ride and all will feel fine, until you hit a big bump or dip ... and then the weak damping will allow the suspension to either top out or bottom out. Bang! And if your ride height places the nominal ride height close to either the top or bottom travel limits then this will happen more frequently. So this type of damper valving will give a smooth ride over motorways with minor irregularities like expansion joints, etc., but as soon as the going gets rough, the ride will very quickly deteriorate due to the suspension hitting the travel limits.

Conversely, a damper that has firm low-speed damping but the shim stack "blows off" at higher speeds will give good body control and better resistance to bottoming out of topping out during moderate bumps or dips BUT the firm low-speed damping will also transmit a little bit of every tiny crack in the pavement through to the chassis. (I had a set of Bilstein dampers that were like this in my previous car - I loved the steering response but hated the NVH aspects of them.) Also, if the shim stack completely blows off all pressure beyond a certain point, a sudden sharp step in the pavement can still let it bottom out or top out. Again, bottoming or topping out will always be worse, if your nominal ride height puts it close to bottoming or topping.

Want more resistance against bottoming or topping ... then the shim stack can't simply "blow off" the excess pressure, it has to maintain some progression of increasing pressure with increasing flow rate across the shim stack. (This is normally what's done.) Want maximum resistance against bottoming or topping? Then the high-speed compression damping will have to be quite firm. It might not bottom or top out as much, but it'll be rougher during normal driving. Again, the closer your nominal ride height is to the suspension travel limits, the firmer the high-speed damping would have to be in order to minimize bottoming or topping out, and it will STILL bottom out or top out under some conditions. This is a recipe for a rough ride under *all* conditions.

You can see that no matter what valving is chosen, there are conditions in which a particular design choice will work well, and other conditions in which the same design choice will not work so well. So, "rides rough" has to be qualified by the conditions under which one is making this description.

And ... it doesn't matter whether the damper in question is part of a "coil-over" or not, because it doesn't matter. What matters is the valving, and how close your nominal ride height is to the travel limits.


----------



## pm5395 (Mar 17, 2009)

Nightrider said:


> Not true. You can, like myself and many others have, contact people locally (via local forums) that have a setup you are considering and ask for a ride. Or, if you are into _performance_ handling, you can find people at auto-x events or track days. :beer:



Good advice.


----------



## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

docterelliott said:


> then why are people saying "from their experience" that the coil over setups ride smoother? is it because the shock rod is designed to be lower than the average indipendant shock thus giving the same amount of travel and stroke for being lowered? is it because the coil over setups come with the shocks valved and designed for that specific spring rate?
> 
> i currently have GC coil overs (450 fr/350rr) with bilstein sports and it rides super rough. broken up areas in the street will shake my whole car. not only that but my car isnt even that low...maybe 2.5" -3 but definatly not stanced out and i have almost no shock travel and the shock bottoms out when i hit a dip or bump at high speeds. this is why ive been looking into coilovers because i would assume since it is designed to be low that the shock would have more stroke or be designed lower or something so that there is still enough travel when the vehicle is lowered.


That whole setup sounds like disaster - too low, too stiff. I have done a lot of spring rate testing on VW's. 450/350 is too stiff, car will ride like rock and be totally unsettled on bad roads, handling worse than softer setup. Back off the springs to 350/250, raise car 1.5" and enjoy life again. 

Coilovers are nothing more than a shock body with threads and adjustable lower perch. A set of Ohlins (or Koni's or Bilsteins for that matter) with a decent set of springs will blow away most of the coilover crap on the market, and you won't have "coilovers".


----------



## Vince.:R (Nov 15, 2009)

5thgearwolfy said:


> Hey I didnt read any of the posts I'm just giving you my opinion on the original question. Yes shock spring combos can compete with coilovers I know this because I have shock spring combos and all my other buddies have coils on Gti's and other cars as well. My car is very competitive against theirs. As far as ride comfort goes as long as you buy a high quality product from a respectable company, you will get ride comfort along with performance. I have bilsten sport shocks with neuspeed race springs. This is an expensive shock spring combo but it is justified. The neuspeed race springs are designed to go on bilstein sport shocks so they fit perfectly, furthermore when neuspeed receives the shocks from bilstein they tinker with it so it will perfectly fit the specific spring they are sending you. This combo gives me better ride quality then any other suspension improved car I have ever sat in while at the same time allowing me to be very competitive against anyone with coils.


i had this exact setup on my last gti, but the ride was uncomfortable for everyone but me that sat in the car, mainly because i was used to it. 

What coils were your buddies on?


----------



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

davedave said:


> its application-dependent for best results.<p>the reson I say this is that I had an A3 GTI VR6 with H&R Coils and Autotech rear sway bar. <p>then I got an 88 GLI with Tokico blues and Eibach springs, stock sways.<p>the GLI handles far better than the A3 did. <p>


It can also be said that the A2 is just a BETTER handling design than the A3. The A3 is a pig compared to the A2. Out of the box, the A2 will kick butt on the A3. Take any A2 and A3, mode them both(perfectly), the A2 still wins.
TomJV


----------



## glifahrenheitcameron (Sep 14, 2011)

meh, all about them coilovers


----------



## glifahrenheitcameron (Sep 14, 2011)

tomjv said:


> It can also be said that the A2 is just a BETTER handling design than the A3. The A3 is a pig compared to the A2. Out of the box, the A2 will kick butt on the A3. Take any A2 and A3, mode them both(perfectly), the A2 still wins.
> TomJV


Also wanted to point out that you bumped a pretty old thread lol


----------



## Tyrranicyde (Jan 4, 2011)

In

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------

