# I'm just going to leave this little all motor dyno chart here.... :)



## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

So, we've been working on an all motor 2.5L for a long time. Some of you may remember us making some ultra light weight billet rods for the project. We also had a set of custom JE pistons made, 11.5:1 CR, slipper skirt forgings with very narrow 19mm pins. This motor was always meant to run on 91 octane unleaded. Now that I don't have a car to put it in, I wish it was much higher compression. They are just 82.5mm drop in pistons for stock stroke, so displacement on this is totally stock. 

Bone "stock" IE SRI with stock rabbit throttle body
Ported head
Ferrea valves
IE Cams
IE Springs & retainers
IE Custom billet rods
JE Pistons
IE Tune
Custom header

Tyler might kill me for posting camera phone picture but... 


















We're still working on it- likely will try an 80mm throttle body, and experimenting with the header tube length. I'm sure a bit more is possible with just little tweaks. Pretty sure this is a rock solid all motor record though and MAN would this setup make huge power with boost. :thumbup:

Might build a much larger, higher compression version this winter for something to do. umpkin:


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

<---- *Faints*


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

I need this. Ahhh

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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

Magnificent!


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Might build a much larger, higher compression version this winter for something to do. 

Need a donor for that winter tweak... :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

We have a whole pallet full of spare 2.5L blocks etc. 

If we do that, this short block would be up for grabs though. Might as well just start from scratch and let somebody enjoy this, rather then letting the parts collect dust on our shelf. :thumbup:


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Oh wow. Such want. 

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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Sweet build, looks like someone sorted out the belt tensioner issue...

whats the build worth if you already have an sri and a header?


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

Impressed! What does it sound like?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Few pics from the process... 

*Designing the custom billet all motor rods in Solidworks.... We surface milled the pockets on these for a really sweet stress distribution and to get them even lighter while still keeping a hump down the center for the rifle drilling. Also note the tapered design on the small end which saved some extra weight. 










You can see here how I snuck the pin oiling into this tiny lightweight rod. This also allowed the small end to require no other oiling holes of any kind and a totally smooth bushing. 










Using FEA simulation software to check stress levels, study fatigue and component life, and optimize. 










This was us honing the small end of the rods for a correct pin fit. 










Finished parts thanks to Hayden and the other crew in our machine shop. So amazing this can happen 100 feet from my desk. 



















Custom pistons made to our specifications by JE. These ones are on their smallest / lightest forging in this size, and use a very very lightweight 19mm wrist pin. 










Engine master Jake measuring this piston up to determine the piston to wall clearance. IE builds 2-3 race engines a month for customers around the world.










Checked and ready to go in. Note the dome for the increased compression. 










CNC ported head with race valve job and 2.5mm over Ferrea intake valves, larger inlet seats, IE valve guides. 










A little never before scene shot of what designing a cam profile looks like. We control the shape of the lobe by manipulating the acceleration curve directly. There are many more steps, but this is one of them. 










One off header Jake and Cassidy built to my specs.... Just for dyno work.  











On the dyno ready for testing. 







*


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Now Tyler hits me with the video...


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

[email protected] said:


>


With it sitting there at idle...it sounds so familiar. The everything goes *Batsh*t Nuts* as it screams up to the stratosphere. :thumbup:


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## Golf 2.0T (Apr 17, 2007)

do you have the cam specs of this specific setup? are they going to be released soon ? thanks:thumbup:


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## A1an (Mar 22, 2007)

Very cool. Curious about the power with a header for MKV/MKVI chassis though.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

This makes me so sad to be selling my car and not finishing my rallyX project.

...but I'm going to swap a MK2 Rocco with one of these in Europe dammit....maybe with ITBs. That'll be a hella badass weekend warrior. (Nobody in Copenhagen drives every day --totally a bicycle city).


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Cams: 12mm lift, 290 degree advertised. Require checking and correcting intake valve clearance on pistons. Valve guides must be installed deeper (about 2mm) for stem seal clearance with the lift. 

Same ones Caste systems is running. Email / Call sales only as we don't want these going to people who expect drop in power.

They are billets on new cores, not regrinds. 

Also: a similar header could easily be constructed for mk5/6 just need to aim it down through the tunnel. Our exhaust is just "over there" not away from the block.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ... note the tapered design on the small end which saved some extra weight.


That tapered shape makes me wonder if this connecting rod design is compatible with stock pistons. I suppose not, but I'll ask the question here anyway.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Cams: 12mm lift, 290 degree advertised. Require checking and correcting intake valve clearance on pistons. Valve guides must be installed deeper (about 2mm) for stem seal clearance with the lift.
> 
> Same ones Caste systems is running. Email / Call sales only as we don't want these going to people who expect drop in power.
> 
> ...


You think you guys could help me do a crazy swap across an ocean? I'm assuming I'd run a Vipec in a swapped that --and I'd need to figure out mounts, headers and whatnot.

It's be really cool to scream down back roads in something a bit more off the wall than a VR6 Rocco.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

There are already a bunch of these motors in Europe... Hank has been shipping them over pretty steady. 

Doug, these motors are not 1.8t's- they need pistons and rods once you get to ~400whp. The factory pistons are light duty compared to the 1.8t ones. Also, those rods are 100 grams LIGHTER then stock rods, made very specifically for this purpose, and would simply bend with boost. 

That right there is the main reason why we don't sell an "all motor" rod. It's crossed our minds many times before.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> There are already a bunch of these motors in Europe... Hank has been shipping them over pretty steady.


Where is his shop located? I'm taking international free trade law right now, and I think I'm figuring out how to move things around inside the EU so I could have someone drop this sucker into a car.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Hank is in Las Vegas. Iroz Motorsports.  He's also making a gorgeous turbo setup for these I should mention, using the spectacular borg warner EFR turbochargers.


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

Pete I take it this would be quite an expensive setup? What's the ball park figure if you ever sold a long block?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

This motor has a cnc ported, remanufactured head with huge valves, which required changing all the intake seats. Then ferrea valves, billet cams, etc... Custom billet rods, the best of everything. I'd hesitate to estimate the long block but it's certainly in excess of $10k. The only OE moving parts left in this engine is the crank and the timing components, rocker arms, lifter buckets, crank damper. That's just a LOT of parts to purchase. 

Same thing could be built more economically using our standard but heavier rods, and a stock head, but of course power won't be quite there. Most of the expense though really is in the head. 

That's why I'm thinking about putting together a piston, header, and ECU tune package which could be added on to existing stage 2 / SRI customers and give a really really nice bump in power, but at a reasonable cost. Just unsure how many people would be willing to install pistons. I'd likely need to do a group buy in it to make sure there is interest because this market can be pretty tough that way.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

I would be interested in a piston, rod, and tune package so that when funds become available I could build the head. I have eurojet header and downpipe plus the eurojet intake manifold. 

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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

That package with the headers pistons rods and tune is exactly what im looking for as i have a sri stage 2 and am looking for just a little more.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey Pete, Mind sharing the overlap and lsa on the cams? I understand if it's proprietary. 290 degrees is pretty high duration for a turbo motor - are there different sets for na/turbo?

any problems with that new tensioner going past 9300rpm, like in the video? 10k-10.2k?


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## RBT-Tuned (Dec 24, 2013)

Love the progress update Pete :thumbup: :beer:


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Are you still running stock injectors or have you upgraded to larger ones?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

If you guys are interested in a high CR package, which would likely be pistons and a tune, in addition to your stage 2 hardware- please email [email protected]. I'm going to test that setup on Monday (header, stock cams, 11.5:1 CR). We'd likely just recommend the Evolution motorsports header at this point. 

It would just be a software upgrade over your existing IE stage 2 software. 

I think to keep it affordable we'd want to use factory rods. We will see on Monday but I would expect a nice bump in power over a basic stage 2 setup, and more importantly, a nice jump in torque as well. 


Belt continues to be an issue when going well over 8k. At this point the best bet is the audi TTRS belt tensioner and harmonic damper. Both OE parts. The TTRS damper is the same as the 07K damper but it is stiffer AND it has built in friction damping, to prevent hopping, whereas the 07k damper is just a soft spring and no damping at all. Still, the proposed package wouldn't really impact that as it would not involve a head build or any higher RPM then the existing stage 2 setups (7200).


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Hey Pete, Mind sharing the overlap and lsa on the cams? I understand if it's proprietary. 290 degrees is pretty high duration for a turbo motor - are there different sets for na/turbo?
> 
> any problems with that new tensioner going past 9300rpm, like in the video? 10k-10.2k?



290 isn't a problem because VVT. Intake cam is in about a 120 centerline when all the way retarded. Thing even idles smooth and has vacuum. We've tested them over 1000hp / 40+ psi. There will be no other sets for this very very limited market. Not even sure if we will make more when this very limited batch is gone.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

DerekH said:


> Are you still running stock injectors or have you upgraded to larger ones?


Well, I used OE injectors, with about 100psi fuel pressure. But, it was at ~100% duty cycle, and we're 15% below sea level atmospheric pressure. In other words, at sea level, and at a "normal" rail pressure, this would require a much larger injector. I do normally try to run a high rail pressure for all motor power, for atomization. 

There is a 6.6 bar fuel pressure regulator / filter which may be an option for stock cam / non ported setups at sea level.


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## RBT-Tuned (Dec 24, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> If you guys are interested in a high CR package, which would likely be pistons and a tune, in addition to your stage 2 hardware- please email [email protected]. I'm going to test that setup on Monday (header, stock cams, 11.5:1 CR). We'd likely just recommend the Evolution motorsports header at this point.
> 
> It would just be a software upgrade over your existing IE stage 2 software.
> 
> ...


We just installed the Evolution Tuning A6203 header. Definitely would recommend working with Victor :thumbup: :beer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rbt-tuned


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> If you guys are interested in a high CR package, which would likely be pistons and a tune, in addition to your stage 2 hardware- please email [email protected]. I'm going to test that setup on Monday (header, stock cams, 11.5:1 CR). We'd likely just recommend the Evolution motorsports header at this point.
> 
> It would just be a software upgrade over your existing IE stage 2 software.
> 
> ...


Overbore?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Overbore?


And by this I mean --will machining be required? I sure hope not. It'll be so much easier and more affordable if they just drop in. I could build myself a naturally aspirated swap motor pretty cheap and put it in a classic VW. It'd be hella awesome.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I would guess that's the way most people would want to go. Feedback? I wouldn't say the 2.5L is a great candidate for swapping internals IN the car like old 1.8t's etc, but not having to haul everything to a machine shop definitely makes it faster and easier. 

Kinda thinking drop in Mahle's are the way to go- cost a little more but the tight clearances and high quality coatings make them perfect for daily drivers. Feedback guys? Cost difference is about $40 per piston, from Wiseco's which are the cheapest option, to Mahle's.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I would guess that's the way most people would want to go. Feedback? I wouldn't say the 2.5L is a great candidate for swapping internals IN the car like old 1.8t's etc, but not having to haul everything to a machine shop definitely makes it faster and easier.
> 
> Kinda thinking drop in Mahle's are the way to go- cost a little more but the tight clearances and high quality coatings make them perfect for daily drivers. Feedback guys? Cost difference is about $40 per piston, from Wiseco's which are the cheapest option, to Mahle's.


What're the prices we're talking about?


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

I think going the Mahle route is a great idea. 

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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

lessthanalex said:


> I think going the Mahle route is a great idea.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


Well, we're still talking a $200 increase in price, so I'd like to know the overall pricing. If the only money saved is machine work --what's the point?

If we're talking $400 vs $600, that's not a huge deal, but if we're talking $800 vs $1000 that is a big deal.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree with everything said above, id like drop ins and i would probably spend the extra money on the higher quality pistons, however I'm not entirely sold on the idea yet. id like to see a before and after with the supporting mods and then the high compression upgrade. my other thought is would we want to get higher strength valve springs? could we just drop those in as well with the stock valves and be able to rev out farther? because it seems like the more you rev this motor the more power it makes. anyways, that's my 2 cents.


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## dhenry (Feb 10, 2009)

if i were to go down this route i would want the better quality pistons. i'm with alex on going with mahle.


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Watching this and very interested. Have some of the same questions said above but my vote would be Mahle.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

DerekH said:


> I agree with everything said above, id like drop ins and i would probably spend the extra money on the higher quality pistons, however I'm not entirely sold on the idea yet. id like to see a before and after with the supporting mods and then the high compression upgrade. my other thought is would we want to get higher strength valve springs? could we just drop those in as well with the stock valves and be able to rev out farther? because it seems like the more you rev this motor the more power it makes. anyways, that's my 2 cents.


For drop ins, 8K would be the limit from everything I've reaearched on going high comp (and I've been researching it for about a year --have all the parts but I just sold my high comp turbo guts to Sam since I'm moving to Europe).

I'm running a TTRS pulley set right now for the single purpose of revving to 8000RPMs. Thats the limit from what I understand of the stock valve springs and stock rods/rod bearings. Staying anywhere under that should be safe for a DD.

Building the head and whatnot gets this bad boy up to and maybe beyond 10K. Jeff Atwood was saying in some thread that he's still got flow and power increasing out past 10K with an IE built motor. But you're looking at a $3K install of just the bottom end for those overbore requiring JL pistons and IE rods. THEN you need a $5K head.


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

Mahle


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## GoodyMonsta (Jan 17, 2014)

Very interested as well. Could you test it with the bigger 80mm Throttle body also?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Few things: 

We are working on dyno numbers. We had to pull the CNC ported head OFF and put a stock head back on to get numbers that are worthwhile for you guys... Our baseline SRI numbers are with a stock head so I had to go backwards a bit. Jake is working on it now and we should have it running tomorrow, so hopefully we can get it tuned quickly and deliver the info. 

As far as revving higher: These engines are done making power by 7200 with a stock head and cams. We limit the regular stage 2 there because I find that going to 7400 / 7500 just equals shredded belts. Power is not increased at all. Now, I think it's pretty clear that a TTRS damper and belt tensioner mostly solves that issue, but they are a lot of money between the two of them, for no extra power and then needing to build the head by 8000 anyways. Basically, I see no need to get into revvving any higher unless we're talking about a built head, cams, and a proper race header etc. ($3000-6000+ of extra parts). I'm very confident from these results that we'll see a nice bump in power and especially torque without the need for any of those extra parts, and without shifting the powerband up even higher.

The impressive high RPM capability we just demonstrated really comes down to a ported head and large cams. :laugh:

Re: Throttle bodies: We gained nothing from adding the 83mm throttle, even at 280hp. So, that'd be a total waste of $300-500. Not going to happen. I'm not here to waste your guys money. 

As far as pistons go, Wiseco's are the most economical thing we work with and they start at about $540 for a set of 4, to give you an idea. Adding $200 to the kit may not be a good idea in terms of dollars / hp ratio. In order to do this I'm actually going to have to install this short block in one of our 2.5L to tune it which means this entire thing is no trivial task to be worthwhile on our end either. 

We'll have an update on this idea tomorrow probably.


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Excellent news!!!

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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

Great, keep up the good work. I learn a lot from you guys (IE)


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Sounds like the way to roll is Weisco so long as they're reliable.

Even getting 250 or so horses at the crank, and I'm sold on this idea. 250 horses with a MK4 1.8T GTI R&P into an 0A4 gearbox and now we're talking about punking tuned GTIs or factory Golf Rs/R32s.

I'm game for that. Hell, I'll do it myself and put it on YouTube.


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

I love popping in here after a while and reading a great thread like this. Thanks for posting this! (not to mention building it)


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

also, do theses cams/ pistons completely rule out going fi? i'd love this increase in power as i continue to build my 2.5 towards turbo.


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> What're the prices we're talking about?


second this


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

jaidajoker said:


> also, do theses cams/ pistons completely rule out going fi? i'd love this increase in power as i continue to build my 2.5 towards turbo.



Cams, no- the VVT units in these cylinder heads effectively let this camshaft set work for all motor OR turbo. These are the same cams in both UM's Golf R25 and Caste Systems Performance's brutal 1000+ hp 2.5L. Pistons - not completely, but definitely way less then ideal. Puts you in a similar low boost situation like E46 m3 (S54) and others. If you're seriously building towards FI, this probably isn't the route for you.


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Cams, no- the VVT units in these cylinder heads effectively let this camshaft set work for all motor OR turbo. These are the same cams in both UM's Golf R25 and Caste Systems Performance's brutal 1000+ hp 2.5L. Pistons - not completely, but definitely way less then ideal. Puts you in a similar low boost situation like E46 m3 (S54) and others. If you're seriously building towards FI, this probably isn't the route for you.


Thanks for the clarification, my only other question for now would be are the cams available for purchase yet? If not when might they be available?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Yes, just email [email protected] or call us 801-484-2021 M-F 10am to 6PM mountain standard time. 

Also guys- we tested the high compression motor on stock cylinder head and cams and results were promising as expected. We are re-testing tomorrow with stock header just for reference, then I will post some info. 

-Pete


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Super excited. Pete, I plan on buying the high comp pistons, but I've got eurojet header and intake manifold, do you think the tune will run well on software you offer or would there be possibility for customization and optimization for my specific setup?

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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I think I can get it pretty damn close. I'm actually testing it without a header tomorrow morning. The header we built and tested with was really not optimum for stock cams powerband (it was tuned for 8800-9000 rpm peak hp), so I'm curious to see what a stock shorty does. Took us a while to swap the cylinder head and cams and get it re-tuned etc. 

I do want to say that me creating a file for this high CR business is going to be conditional on a ~decent group buy presale. I don't need to end up with a 20 year supply of high CR pistons. :laugh:

I really wanted to test the EVO header while the 2.5L was still on our dyno but couldn't get one. Don't care enough to go buy one at full retail just for curiosity. The others have this odd 3 runner / 2 runner paired setup, with a mixed bag of runner lengths. Not sure what the plan was there but it doesn't tickle my fancy, that's for sure.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I think I can get it pretty damn close. I'm actually testing it without a header tomorrow morning. The header we built and tested with was really not optimum for stock cams powerband (it was tuned for 8800-9000 rpm peak hp), so I'm curious to see what a stock shorty does. Took us a while to swap the cylinder head and cams and get it re-tuned etc.
> 
> I do want to say that me creating a file for this high CR business is going to be conditional on a ~decent group buy presale. I don't need to end up with a 20 year supply of high CR pistons. :laugh:
> 
> I really wanted to test the EVO header while the 2.5L was still on our dyno but couldn't get one. Don't care enough to go buy one at full retail just for curiosity. The others have this odd 3 runner / 2 runner paired setup, with a mixed bag of runner lengths. Not sure what the plan was there but it doesn't tickle my fancy, that's for sure.


Test the late model exhaust manifold. It's got to be better than the early model header.

Also what's the cost looking like?


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I think I can get it pretty damn close. I'm actually testing it without a header tomorrow morning. The header we built and tested with was really not optimum for stock cams powerband (it was tuned for 8800-9000 rpm peak hp), so I'm curious to see what a stock shorty does. Took us a while to swap the cylinder head and cams and get it re-tuned etc.
> 
> I do want to say that me creating a file for this high CR business is going to be conditional on a ~decent group buy presale. I don't need to end up with a 20 year supply of high CR pistons. :laugh:
> 
> I really wanted to test the EVO header while the 2.5L was still on our dyno but couldn't get one. Don't care enough to go buy one at full retail just for curiosity. The others have this odd 3 runner / 2 runner paired setup, with a mixed bag of runner lengths. Not sure what the plan was there but it doesn't tickle my fancy, that's for sure.


I also noticed that you guys were running on 91 octane, surely we can expect slight gains on 93 or even E85. Are you guys testing pistons with stock cams and also cams with stock pistons to see the power gain for each indivdually?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

jaidajoker said:


> I also noticed that you guys were running on 91 octane, surely we can expect slight gains on 93 or even E85. Are you guys testing pistons with stock cams and also cams with stock pistons to see the power gain for each indivdually?


They're at high elevation. 93 isn't available at those altitudes --93 is low altitude fuel. 

Hell, 93 isn't even available once you get west of Abaline in Texas. If you want higher, E85 is the only option until elevation drops on the other side of the Rockies.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

We mix 91 and 100 to get ~93. No e85 here either. Most of our race stuff we use 116.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Pete, how do you fee about boosting with high compression pistons? I'm assuming you'll want to have stronger rods as well. just wondering if the NA built will transfer to boosting or if the two will have to be separate?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

DerekH said:


> Pete, how do you fee about boosting with high compression pistons? I'm assuming you'll want to have stronger rods as well. just wondering if the NA built will transfer to boosting or if the two will have to be separate?





[email protected] said:


> Pistons - not completely, but definitely way less then ideal. Puts you in a similar low boost situation like E46 m3 (S54) and others. If you're seriously building towards FI, this probably isn't the route for you.


...dude...


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> They're at high elevation. 93 isn't available at those altitudes --93 is low altitude fuel.
> 
> Hell, 93 isn't even available once you get west of Abaline in Texas. If you want higher, E85 is the only option until elevation drops on the other side of the Rockies.


True, didn't even think of that. Since I left cali I've been gifted with 93 & 100 octane at pumps in Florida and plenty of places to fill up on corn.


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> ...dude...


lol


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Results are in- stock head, stock header, IE sri, JE 11.5:1 pistons bumped power from about 207 to about 231, with a very nice gain in torque across the entire curve. More power for sure with a header as well. We tested on both C16 116 leaded and 91 octane unleaded and *power was the exact same*. So, our consensus is that we'd go with a full 12:1 compression on the kits. We expect about an additional 5bhp or so from the extra half point of compression on top of that and it should be very suitable for 91/93 octane still. 









Stock short block, stock head, IE SRI, versus 11.5:1 short block, stock head, IE SRI. 










Same setup, 91 octane versus 116 octane leaded. One run got cut short, but you can see why I do not offer race fuel tunes for these engines. This is also why we are going to bump the compression from 11.5:1 to 12:1 for the production pistons. 


At this point, we're putting together a kit to acheive an installation on this as easily and cost effectively as possible. I will have more details tomorrow hopefully, if not it will be Tuesday. Like I said, I would count on about an extra 5 hp from the additional bump in compression ratio on the production batch.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Take my money!

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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

SWEET!!!!!!!


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

Lots of great info. Question though regarding when compared the hp between the stock compression and the high one. 
-Why was the base only of about 207 instead of 218 or so like advertised on your website with the IE intake manifold upgrade?

I'm not trying to put down your product by any means. Love you guys


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> ...dude...


I'm sorry i was under the impression he was talking about the motor they built with light weight rods for high reving not all high compression motors ever. That is why i asked pete to clarify.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Come on Derek, how dare ye cross the all knowing R3?

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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

vr6-kamil said:


> Lots of great info. Question though regarding when compared the hp between the stock compression and the high one.
> -Why was the base only of about 207 instead of 218 or so like advertised on your website with the IE intake manifold upgrade?
> 
> I'm not trying to put down your product by any means. Love you guys



2 different dynos, 2 different motors, and 2 different ECU's. This motor didn't even make 170 stock on this dyno, in fact it barely crested 170 bhp with the entire air filter assembly and catalytic converter removed, and an open exhaust.  If you compare that to stage 1 results from our ME17 car, either this dyno is grumpy, or this motor is grumpy.  I'm going with dyno because the leak down is fine, and it's even a fresh bottom end now.


We actually have 3 2.5L mule engines- one in an ME7 2008 rabbit, one in a 2009 ME17 rabbit, and this one which is for the engine dyno- they get used on 2 different dynos as well. Oddly, the ME17 car made nearly 10 whp more then the ME7 car, stock. *shrug* Most of our software development happens in the car, and most of our hardcore hardware development happens on the engine stand as it's much easier.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

lessthanalex said:


> Come on Derek, how dare ye cross the all knowing R3?
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


Or learn to read better...


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> 2 different dynos, 2 different motors, and 2 different ECU's. This motor didn't even make 170 stock on this dyno, in fact it barely crested 170 bhp with the entire air filter assembly and catalytic converter removed, and an open exhaust.  If you compare that to stage 1 results from our ME17 car, either this dyno is grumpy, or this motor is grumpy.  I'm going with dyno because the leak down is fine, and it's even a fresh bottom end now.
> 
> 
> We actually have 3 2.5L mule engines- one in an ME7 2008 rabbit, one in a 2009 ME17 rabbit, and this one which is for the engine dyno- they get used on 2 different dynos as well. Oddly, the ME17 car made nearly 10 whp more then the ME7 car, stock. *shrug* Most of our software development happens in the car, and most of our hardcore hardware development happens on the engine stand as it's much easier.


What's cost looking like for the pistons?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Working on costing now that we have results. I'm headed out of town on work friday and Monday, so hopefully the guys have it done on Tuesday.


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## radagast34 (Nov 7, 2014)

My god🎅 awesome work. Will a specific tune be needed to run high compression? What are my options if I'm on a C2 tune already. Can you give a ballpark for labor costs for the install when you release pricing!


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Or learn to read better...


Seriously dude im not in here to sling **** at you or anyone else. i just want to know whats up. you need to stop answering questions you aren't asked, you don't know everything. No one does, but i was asking one of the people that knows the most about this motor a question that you don't have the answer for. i have heard of people doing high compression turbo builds before and i was just interested in understanding why one would or wouldn't do that on this motor. and since you haven't built or tested anything to do with high compression on this motor i would appreciate if you held your sarcastic and not terribly useful answers to your self. please let the experts answer.

Pete, can i please have some clarifications on high compression turbo builds for this motor. Aside from predetonation (which doesn't seem to be a problem so far) i can't really see why it would be a bad idea to run higher compression for faster spooling and more low end power. maybe im missing something though and would appreciate a bit of explanation as to why it would or would not be a good idea.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

DerekH said:


> Seriously dude im not in here to sling **** at you or anyone else. i just want to know whats up. you need to stop answering questions you aren't asked, you don't know everything. No one does, but i was asking one of the people that knows the most about this motor a question that you don't have the answer for. i have heard of people doing high compression turbo builds before and i was just interested in understanding why one would or wouldn't do that on this motor. and since you haven't built or tested anything to do with high compression on this motor i would appreciate if you held your sarcastic and not terribly useful answers to your self. please let the experts answer.


There are PLENTY on high comp turbo 2.5Ls in the wild including a monster driven by Gabe at BWP who I contracted to build an engine. I actually have the necessary parts for a high compression turbo 2.5L bottom end in my front closet including a knifed crank.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

DerekH said:


> you need to stop answering questions you aren't asked, you don't know everything.
> 
> i would appreciate if you held your sarcastic and not terribly useful answers to your self. please let the experts answer.


This, 100%. This is IE's thread, not yours. My suggestion, make an "RRR Answers Everything Thread" and stop intruding on legitimate and valuable threads made by well respected companies. Until Pete hires you as a representative or sponsored car then just stop. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

It's ok guys, let's all keep it casual. 

There's no black and white here, that's the bottom line. It's all combinations and shades of grey. 

If you want max power on pump fuel, you need low compression for detonation resistance. End of story. However, If you're planning on running race fuel, E85, or possibly even well set up water / meth injection, you can make gobs of power on high compression and boost. There is STILL a disadvantage here though, which is that HP for HP, peak cylinder pressures are higher with a high boost, high CR motor, then with a high boost, low CR motor. This translates to potential unreliability. Gabe's motor makes a lot of power, but it has also been plagued with headgasket issues and many, many broken parts. On the other hand, Caste's motor uses a more realistic ~9:1 and has been very reliable. Just for a point of reference, in this particular market. Now, that's not to say a 500, or 600 whp E85 5 cylinder on 10:1 or even 11:1 wouldn't or couldn't be reliable- both of those mentioned were or are gunning for 1xxx hp. 

Now, back to pump gas- SURE you can boost it on high CR. Go google the E46 M3 turbo setups... They successfully make a lot of power on ~12:1 cr and if I remember right, under 15 psi of boost. Of course, 25psi on 9:1 would make more power on 91 octane. 

So, it's possible for sure, and if you really want a torquey (out of boost), snappy turbo engine, it may not be a bad route- I'd definitely add rods to the mix... However, understand that on 91 / 93 octane, you are giving up power to a low compression build. (or even ~stock compression).


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

What's preventing an upgraded head gasket?

BTW I'm a sucker for E85. It's just street legal race fuel in my eyes. I'll gladly deal with the smell of booze to run those unholy boost figures with stupid fast spool times.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with the headgasket. The head lifts. That's sort of a good thing, because if it didn't it would be breaking the bottom end instead most likely.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> There's nothing wrong with the headgasket. The head lifts. That's sort of a good thing, because if it didn't it would be breaking the bottom end instead most likely.


That makes sense.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

So just to clarify a little farther, you think under 15psi or so high compression is fine, past that you are pushing your luck with too high of cylinder pressures and its better to run lower compression for more boost 15+psi? I guess i was thinking more along the lines of for a fun DD that hits the track a few times a year rather than a race specific engine. i would imagine an sri'ed high compression motor on 15psi would be plenty of fun and somewhere in the range of 4-500hp and roughly the same in torque. thanks for the insight, I'm assuming the pistons you are planning to make available to us for high compression conversion are going to be designed to work with the stock rods and not aftermarket ones. meaning if someone were to buy this kit they would be committing to not boosting the car later on, or at least will have to change this pistons to something lower compression later on.

Thanks for the info Pete. I'm really enjoying this thread and seeing so much potential from these engines.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

DerekH said:


> So just to clarify a little farther, you think under 15psi or so high compression is fine, past that you are pushing your luck with too high of cylinder pressures and its better to run lower compression for more boost 15+psi? I guess i was thinking more along the lines of for a fun DD that hits the track a few times a year rather than a race specific engine. i would imagine an sri'ed high compression motor on 15psi would be plenty of fun and somewhere in the range of 4-500hp and roughly the same in torque. thanks for the insight, I'm assuming the pistons you are planning to make available to us for high compression conversion are going to be designed to work with the stock rods and not aftermarket ones. meaning if someone were to buy this kit they would be committing to not boosting the car later on, or at least will have to change this pistons to something lower compression later on.
> 
> Thanks for the info Pete. I'm really enjoying this thread and seeing so much potential from these engines.




You could make more power with race fuel, but ya, you won't be able to run high boost on pump fuels. 

Yes, these particular pistons will be done for stock rods to keep costs low. However, we can very easily make a set for rods, there will be a slight price premium for a single custom set rather then us ordering in batch quantities, but it's nothing crazy.


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## GoodyMonsta (Jan 17, 2014)

Thanks for your work. Very interested


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> You could make more power with race fuel, but ya, you won't be able to run high boost on pump fuels.
> 
> Yes, these particular pistons will be done for stock rods to keep costs low. However, we can very easily make a set for rods, there will be a slight price premium for a single custom set rather then us ordering in batch quantities, but it's nothing crazy.


Sounds good to me, if a group buy does get put together for this i would be very interested in pricing on rods i am assuming the only difference with the oe fit pistons vs aftermarket fit pistons is the wrist pin size. Anything else that would change? also kind of curious about install on these, is it going to be a full trans drop and engine removal or can you get enough space to swap things out without pulling that much apart? i haven't really seen the bottom end of one of these engines ripped apart in person.


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## Caste Systems (Apr 18, 2010)

Our motor runs 9.5:1 JE pistons, E85 pump gas, PT 6766BB turbo. We've never had any issues with headgaskets, coolant pressure, or making power in general. According to ET calc. the car is making 950-1050hp. This engine as a base has been nothing short of amazing.

I don't mean to step on Pete's toes here but having built these motors I can say that install for pistons definitely is no easy task. The upper part of the oil pan has to come off for access the connecting rod bolts which means the trans definitely has to come out to access the bolts which secure the pan to the lower timing cover. Removing the head is no picnic either. Realistically I'd say pull the whole engine/trans. but I must say the potential NA power these things could make is worth it to most people.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this development goes, as building my motor and car has turned me into a huge fan of this engine.

James @ CSP


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't normally post here, I'm really jsut passing through, but since this is an active development thread (pretty dammed cool, btw) I though I'd drop a nugget:

Pete mentioned early on in the thread about poking around with the header tube length. I would suggest taking a look at the COLLECTOR length as well. Stretching that out some should smooth out that powerband even more, and improve low end torque without affecting your top end.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Ya, i just used an off the shelf collector to save time. Maybe in the future, i need to do some math on the header for the next version of this. I think we have plenty of rpm just need to turn up the wick a bit.


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## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Awesome stuff!


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

[email protected]ated said:


> Results are in- stock head, stock header, IE sri, JE 11.5:1 pistons bumped power from about 207 to about 231, with a very nice gain in torque across the entire curve. More power for sure with a header as well. We tested on both C16 116 leaded and 91 octane unleaded and *power was the exact same*. So, our consensus is that we'd go with a full 12:1 compression on the kits. We expect about an additional 5bhp or so from the extra half point of compression on top of that and it should be very suitable for 91/93 octane still.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see you also gave it some more RPM range to about 7500 when adding the high compression pistons. This can get expensive fast as the crank pulley fix is a must to maximize the potential


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

If 12:1 is safe on 91, and we could get a 5BHP bump from every .5 compression bump, is 15:1 viable on E85 and would it make upwards of 255BHP?

250BHP is great FWD rally territory and I could easily see myself stuffing that into something lightweight (like a MK1) and having an edge over turbo cars.

Also, what's Gallardo comp? I remember it was pretty high. If I could find a way to make a cam (a la order one from turkey) that just required a valve/spring upgrade as opposed to a P&P for my next motor build, and run this sucker at effectively the left Gallardo bank, there could be some great potential there for 91 pump gas.

May be too hella expensive but I'm just thinking on paper.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

vr6-kamil said:


> I see you also gave it some more RPM range to about 7500 when adding the high compression pistons. This can get expensive fast as the crank pulley fix is a must to maximize the potential


I'm installing a TTRS lower pulley set tomorrow (upper pulleys are identical to ours). I'll let y'all know if that fixes anything.


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## Reflex 2.5 (Dec 15, 2012)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Also, what's Gallardo comp? I remember it was pretty high.


11:1 for the original 5.0 V10 and 12.5:1 for the 5.2


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Caste Systems said:


> Our motor runs 9.5:1 JE pistons, E85 pump gas, PT 6766BB turbo. We've never had any issues with headgaskets, coolant pressure, or making power in general. According to ET calc. the car is making 950-1050hp. This engine as a base has been nothing short of amazing.
> 
> I don't mean to step on Pete's toes here but having built these motors I can say that install for pistons definitely is no easy task. The upper part of the oil pan has to come off for access the connecting rod bolts which means the trans definitely has to come out to access the bolts which secure the pan to the lower timing cover. Removing the head is no picnic either. Realistically I'd say pull the whole engine/trans. but I must say the potential NA power these things could make is worth it to most people.
> 
> ...


I agree with taking the engine out when doing pistons/rods, even if they are "drop in". I had taken the upper oil pan out in the vehicle to weld an oil bung on. After doing it in the vehicle, I think it would have been a better idea to just pull the motor and trans.


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> I'm installing a TTRS lower pulley set tomorrow (upper pulleys are identical to ours). I'll let y'all know if that fixes anything.


Where did you obtain that? Are you reving to at least 7200 rpm because that's where the pulley problems begin? Also the main issue is the crank pulley as diagnosed by IE so not sure if by saying lower pulley is that what you mean

No offense but 15:1 is just ridicules. That's coming up on the diesel compression ratio. You need to learn more basics about the tolerances, cylinder pressures and the type of fuel you use before saying that.

First of I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure anything above 12:1 with no direct injection to cool down the cylinder combustion chamber is a no go on pump fuel. I know you also mentioned E85 but you would have to run it 365 a year for the rest of the cars life to keep if from detonating and it not being available in every gas station you go wouldn't make it not very reliable. 

Also as somebody mentioned about Gallardo I'm sure it should be between 12.5:1-15:1 but it's direct injection and a whole different animal


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## Reflex 2.5 (Dec 15, 2012)

^


Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Also, what's Gallardo comp? I remember it was pretty high.





Reflex 2.5 said:


> 11:1 for the original 5.0 V10 and 12.5:1 for the 5.2


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

vr6-kamil said:


> Where did you obtain that? Are you reving to at least 7200 rpm because that's where the pulley problems begin? Also the main issue is the crank pulley as diagnosed by IE so not sure if by saying lower pulley is that what you mean


The lower pulley set is a tensioner, crank pulley and belt --every single other part iof the serpentine system is already on a VW 2.5L --source is ETKA and it s was Pete who suggested I do it.



vr6-kamil said:


> No offense but 15:1 is just ridicules. That's coming up on the diesel compression ratio. You need to learn more basics about the tolerances, cylinder pressures and the type of fuel you use before saying that.


15:1 isn't unheard of in rally --especially running E85 or 116.



vr6-kamil said:


> First of I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure anything above 12:1 with no direct injection to cool down the cylinder combustion chamber is a no go on pump fuel. I know you also mentioned E85 but you would have to run it 365 a year for the rest of the cars life to keep if from detonating and it not being available in every gas station you go wouldn't make it not very reliable.


Who the **** runs pump fuel in a dedicated race car?

Jeez --that's a HUGE and horribly ignorant assumption. You should learn that track cars are TRACK cars --they aren't even the type of thing that's very often legal to drive on the road.



vr6-kamil said:


> Also as somebody mentioned about Gallardo I'm sure it should be between 12.5:1-15:1 but it's direct injection and a whole different animal


I could easily swap an Audi head --not too hard once they start showing up rolled in junk yards. It'll require an entire donor car, but that's going to be easier in the EU when I move there in May.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

no offense to anyone, but you'd turn a FWD vw into a dedicated track car?

whats the point in that?

As for taking the 2.5 to europe, why? As much as i love the engine there are better options over there. If you REALLY love the 2.5, just do that: take a 2.5 and swap it into a car.. Hell, swap it to a DEDICATED RWD or AWD fun track car. 

advice is free, mistakes are costly.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

thygreyt said:


> no offense to anyone, but you'd turn a FWD vw into a dedicated track car?
> 
> whats the point in that?


I prefer competing in classes I can be competitive in. 



thygreyt said:


> As for taking the 2.5 to europe, why? As much as i love the engine there are better options over there. If you REALLY love the 2.5, just do that: take a 2.5 and swap it into a car.. Hell, swap it to a DEDICATED RWD or AWD fun track car.


I don't really like Rong Wheel Drive in rallyX  --and I will get my ass kicked in Euro RallyX in a 4WD class.

Also VR6s are heavy and VR5s suck. 



thygreyt said:


> advice is free, mistakes are costly.


On this we completely agree. Thanks for the advice.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

If anyone cares, I think the TTRS lower belt, tensioner and crank pulley helps. Just did it today so longevity of this solution is unknown but I've been driving in the dirt at redline for about an hour and there's still two belts on the car...


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Working on costing now that we have results. I'm headed out of town on work friday and Monday, so hopefully the guys have it done on Tuesday.


Sooo... it's tuesday


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Ya, sorry, the guys are still putting together a kit list and price. Soon though I promise.


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> no offense to anyone, but you'd turn a FWD vw into a dedicated track car?
> 
> whats the point in that?
> 
> ...



Because at the power levels being talked about there isn't a whole lot of benefit from RWD, or AWD. The FWD will have plenty of grip, and Torque steer will be easy enough to deal with. Higher power cars get more benefit from RWD and AWD.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

OK, finally... Some details

Proposed kit increases the compression from under 10:1 to a full 12:1 which will operate nicely on 91 or 93. Gains are expected to be about 30hp over existing SRI setups, with a dallop of extra torque as well which is what this car really needs. We highly suggest at this level of tune you add a header as well. The kit has been put together to be as economical as possible to change the compression. 

Proposed kit contents: 

12:1 Compression Wiseco pistons for stock connecting rods, coated skirts
OE Headgasket
OE Head bolts
OE Rod bolts
1 tube VW case/pan sealant
1 exhaust manifold gasket (our SRI uses reuseable O rings on the inlet side) 
High compression SRI tune, 7200 or 7500 rpm rev limiter (Higher is OK with the TTRS pulley parts)


*These are group buy prices: we need at least 8 kits sold in advance to justify doing the calibrations for this, unless somebody wants to bring their car to us. * Doing this will mean putting a built short block in our own 2.5L with a clutch, and that's not something which was already in the works. 

Upgrade for existing stage 2 IE SRI customers with IE SRI software: 

$1175

Kit for customers without existing IE SRI Software: 

$1599.99 (Up to '08- port flash) 
$1699.99 (Over '08 ME17 ECU Cars).


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## radagast34 (Nov 7, 2014)

Y


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm in. I had emailed before but will 100% buy. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

You may use mine. I'm very interested and want on the list.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

How many hours of labor is this looking at to install?

Oh, and I've got a month off work and the itch to take a road trip. Do the labor for free and I'll PayPal you $1195, drive to salt lake with a clutch, an LSD and custom gears in the trunk ready to install. I've got TTRS pulleys on here already so I'll be the perfect candidate to set up the 7500RPM software.

I'd prefer not to, but I guess I could snag a header out of the classifieds if absolutely necessary.

..oh and I'll be camping unless Pete wants to let me put my cot in his living room.


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## radagast34 (Nov 7, 2014)

Ya very interested. How much will labor run estimates?


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

Please put me on the list


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Pete,

What, if any, gains would be expected on a car with the stock intake manifold?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I would not recommend that. It would take me some testing to figure out what 91 octane will support with that high torque setup, probably less compression then with a SRI... We certainly wouldn't be tuning for it and so forth. If you do happen to have a hydraulic PS pump car- we do have something in the works for those for a SRI already. 

FWIW: Estimate on labor ~16 hours for an experienced tech. I know that's not fast. These motors are not simple to work on, and there is considerable labor to pull it apart. Please note, there is also a crank locking pin and a cam locking tool (we actually sell the cam locking tool) that you will need. Perhaps somebody on here could rent them- we no longer do tool rental programs. I should have a "book" labor figure on monday.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

What about a hardware only kit Pete? I'm running um tuning and I'm not super interested in forking out for a new tune again.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

DerekH said:


> What about a hardware only kit Pete? I'm running um tuning and I'm not super interested in forking out for a new tune again.


You're going to need a different tune for 12:1 compression than for the stock compression. This big of an increase in compression is almost as significant insofar as how much it'll change cam position, ignition timing and fueling as adding a turbo kit.

I know UM makes 11.5:1 comp turbo software but you should probably ask Jeff what you'd need to do to get your car UM tuned. I'd guess it'll involve the expense of a remote dyno tune.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

DerekH said:


> What about a hardware only kit Pete? I'm running um tuning and I'm not super interested in forking out for a new tune again.


We may be able to accommodate that, but you WILL need a re-tune for this. I will figure out pricing for that on Monday.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks Pete,

I'm interested in a package with rods as well if you have a recommendation. I'm going to need a little bit of time to put together the funds for this however. An unfortunate incident with some black ice has left my bank account with almost as much of a dent as the wheel took.


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## mk3illa (Oct 11, 2007)

Definitely interested in this. Will be watching closely, putting some cash together to opt in the group buy


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 2010)

Guys,

We are working on getting the kits built out in our system and up on the website, should be ready soon. I have a few emails here from people that are interested (which I will update once I have all of the details set in stone), but we do need 8 people in order to pull the trigger on the custom 12:1 Wisecos. Once we have 8 orders placed, we will order the pistons and get the kits going once they arrive. Custom pistons typically take 6-8 weeks from them.

We will be doing 3 different kits:

Hardware only
Hardware plus software upgrade (for people with the IE SRI and software already)
Complete hardware plus new software flash

The pricing that Pete quoted before will remain close to the same, but it looks like that didn't factor in rod bearings, which will be needed as well. I'm working on final pricing and will have it finished soon.

That said, until we can get the part numbers live on the site, let's get a list started of who is definitely interested in ordering them. Let me know which kit you are interested in as well. Once they are live on the site, I will link you to them so you can purchase.

1. lessthanalex- complete hw/sw kit
2. patrwng- hw/sw upgrade 
3. Tombien- hw/sw upgrade
4. Goodymonsta - hw/sw upgrade
5.
6.
7.
8.


Cassidy


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Complete hardware and software kit here. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 2010)

lessthanalex said:


> Complete hardware and software kit here.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


Added to the list, thanks.


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

Please add me on the list complete hardware and upgrading software from stage 2 ie tune.


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Hardware plus software for me please. 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 2010)

patrwng said:


> Please add me on the list complete hardware and upgrading software from stage 2 ie tune.


Done.



Tombien said:


> Hardware plus software for me please.


and done.

Who's next?


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Cassidy,
Need my selection changed to "hardware/software" package only as I have the SRI and tune currently. Thanks.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

I've got an email out to UM to see if they can upgrade my software for me. Also, would a deposit suffice for now? im pretty broke at the moment but i don't want to miss out on this.


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 2010)

Tombien said:


> Cassidy,
> Need my selection changed to "hardware/software" package only as I have the SRI and tune currently. Thanks.


Changed!



DerekH said:


> I've got an email out to UM to see if they can upgrade my software for me. Also, would a deposit suffice for now? im pretty broke at the moment but i don't want to miss out on this.


We will most likely require the full payment up front to lock in the order. If we get 8+ people to do the group buy, we will pull the trigger on the custom piston batch and order a few extra to stock on the shelf.


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 2010)

Alright guys, product listings are up on the website. You can purchase the kit that you are looking for there, which will lock your order in place once we receive 8 orders. If we do not receive 8 orders in a reasonable amount of time, we will not proceed with the pistons and refund the people who have preordered.

As I mentioned previously, there are three kits available:

Hardware only (if you plan to have custom tuning done)
Hardware + software upgrade (only if you already have the IE stage 2 software/power kit)
Hardware + new software flash (if you plan to purchase the power kit at the same time)

The prices went up $100 since we had to add rod bearings to the kits, so:

HW only- $1199.99- purchase here: http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-2-5l-5-cylinder-power-kit-plus-high-compression-hardware-only-pack
HW/SW Upgrade- $1274.99- purchase here: http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-2-5l-5-cylinder-power-kit-plus-high-compression-upgrade-pack
HW/SW Complete- $1699.99 (+$100 for 2009+cars)- purchase here: http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-2-5l-5-cylinder-power-kit-plus-high-compression-complete-pack

We are halfway there with 4 people ready to buy! Only need 4 more to make this happen.


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

just placed order!


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## radagast34 (Nov 7, 2014)

Where are you guy's getting the install done in Utah? Or locally. Yourself?


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

Locally I don't have the skills to do myself


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## jaidajoker (Jun 14, 2013)

While i am extremely happy with the progress, what happened to the cam development?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Cams are done, tested. Work great- see the big all motor numbers we posted a few weeks ago. However, they need some higher compression to really work, and they push the rpm band up significantly higher as to be expected, so you'll really want rods as well. I'd build a header also.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Havent been on the Vortex for a few months and just gone done reading through this thread. Loving the development you guys are doing for our engine and the progress you've made with it NA. I would love to join the groupbuy and get myself a hardware kit but I really dont have that kinda money to spend at the moment. I REALLY hope some other people join in and pull the trigger on this stuff so I can hope to get my hands on it later on down the road. I really want to keep my engine all motor for reliability reasons and also since its my DD.


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

Pete,
Im running on a stock exhaust..... with the pistons and sri I would be getting headers. My question would be when shopping for an exhaust should I go 2.5 or 2.75 any opinions would be appreciated. Not to derail thread. ....I can always stay stock not looking for sound just a few ponies


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 2010)

patrwng said:


> Pete,
> Im running on a stock exhaust..... with the pistons and sri I would be getting headers. My question would be when shopping for an exhaust should I go 2.5 or 2.75 any opinions would be appreciated. Not to derail thread. ....I can always stay stock not looking for sound just a few ponies


Go with 2.5", will flow plenty for NA power and won't be too loud.

Bumping this thread, still need a few people to get in on this deal so we can make it happen!


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## arson451 (Feb 10, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Go with 2.5", will flow plenty for NA power and won't be too loud.
> 
> Bumping this thread, still need a few people to get in on this deal so we can make it happen!


any word on an SRI for us hydraulic ps guys? If so will it be included in the kit and what the cost might be?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Cams are done, tested. Work great- see the big all motor numbers we posted a few weeks ago.


Is this cams as in plural? If so, when will they be ready and will you have versions with turbo-friendly profiles/overlaps?


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

*Bump*

Bump for an updated list. Please let there be eight.opcorn:


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Go with 2.5", will flow plenty for NA power and won't be too loud.
> 
> Bumping this thread, still need a few people to get in on this deal so we can make it happen!


Thanks for the info Cassidy! And bump for more support... Please make this happen.


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## GoodyMonsta (Jan 17, 2014)

Bump for this to materialize


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Wow, when this thread started it seemed like there was a bunch of us interested. Come on guys, all we need is 4 more people to make this a reality.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Tombien said:


> Wow, when this thread started it seemed like there was a bunch of us interested. Come on guys, all we need is 4 more people to make this a reality.


If I was staying stateside there'd be five...still ain't enough. :banghead:


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Well, I'm going to bump anyway for awhile until they tell us at IE it's off the table. Hey, it could happen.:beer:

Sent from my A501 using Tapatalk 2


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## GoodyMonsta (Jan 17, 2014)

Cheers!


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Extremely impressive NA figures...what an engine this 2.5 is! Great work IE :thumbup:


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

bump


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## Tombien (Sep 14, 2012)

Want to stay NA bump.

Sent from my A501


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## patrwng (Jun 12, 2013)

Tax return season bump!


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

This is why we can't have nice things. Literally. lol


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> This is why we can't have nice things. Literally. lol


Sad day


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## Gunbunny08 (Nov 13, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> This is why we can't have nice things. Literally. lol


I really think a facebook post about offering this kit and maybe a dedicated thread on here would certainly help. Not trying to be a smart-ass or tell you how to run your company at all. I'm just saying this info is not exactly in plain view and frankly quite easy to miss, especially for those who only look at posts with pics and maybe the last page. Not to mention those who like your fb page or only look at the 2.5l fb group rather than this forum. I know there are people out there who would buy this kit, but simply haven't seen the offer. I truly love IE products and have nothing but respect for the dedication you guys always show to the 2.5 crowd despite the sometimes painfully low response to amazing offers like this. I'd be on that list for sure if I didn't just buy a turbo kit. All I'm saying is this high compression kit is like Adrian in the first half of Rocky, she just needs to get out there a bit more... she'll be alright :beer:


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Hahaha Adrian if the first half of Rocky, nice one dude :thumbup:. He's right though, I would definitely post something on the 2.5 group on Facebook and also on your companies Facebook page. I rarely come on here anymore after joining the 2.5 group. Same with alot of others Im sure.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Sorry guys, we have way too many irons in the fire to go out and spend a bunch of time trying to sell just a few of these. I mostly built the all motor engine because I thought it would be cool, which it was. This sprouted out of that, but the response level was just way too low. There was lots of interest but as I suspected very few solid orders. 

If an all motor car could make it's way up here, I'd definitely still write a file for it, just because I think it's awesome. That said, even that I doubt I would ever see a return on my time- let alone building a 2.5L ourselves just to develop the file etc.


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

It's too bad this wasn't around a couple of years ago when I had my MK5 because I would've been all over it.
Since then I've had a kid (which is awesome), but that put me in 4-door MK6 Golf which left me with a Tiptronic and no money to spend on mods. 

I still might get a hold of you guys for a tune though. Hopefully 09+ port flashing becomes available sometime soon.


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## golf3nhl (Oct 17, 2004)

to both pete's:

its a bummer more guys arent going NA with these cars. i personally would have loved to see this take off. this scene in general needs more motorsport and track influence.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

2.5 market is too much of a clique... It does sell stuff, but over TIME. with that being the key word.

and while having ~230 whp 2.5 NA cars out there, many (or few) are actually just moving along with turbos. They have been tried, they have shown results, and they are "always" available. There is no pioneering fears and they are everpresent.

It sucks, yes it does. but thats our market, and what we've made of it.

Pete (OP), thanks for the development and for showing us the capabilties of NA, it was a fun debacle.


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