# Sudden Acceleration



## jaredpgh (Jan 18, 2005)

hey guys, doing some research on the Sudden Acceleration frenzy of the mid to late 80s concerning the 5000. The cars used to just go to wide open throttle via the cruise control, then when they changed the numbering system (88 or 89), the complaints stopped coming in so rapidly. Does anyone know of any major changes in the cruise control system between the early and mid 80s 5000s and the late 80s 100? any help is appreciated.


----------



## Twistedaudi (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (jaredpgh)*

Well Jared I believe you may be going a bit too deep into what was said and what actually happened.
I dont claim to know the facts, (**** I was born the same year as my Audi, but the story I know is MUCH less of a demeaning one to Audi. It was my understanding that there were very few, relatively isolated cases of the Unintended Acceleration occurring until 60 minutes aired their episode.
Now You and I both know that with these claims happeneing Audi wanted to know wft was going on. I do Know, that they had their best engineers taking brand new cars and they were doing nothing other than TRYING to reproduce this action just *once* for them. What I'm saying is, everything is speculation. Many people (myself included) think that the people were stepping on the gas pedal instead of the brake when they were taking it out of gear. (Remember now, no shift/saftety lock, until all this business happened.)
Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that was one of the most misunderstood problems in automotive history... one that almost put our beloved make to rest.
Anyone care to refute that?


_Modified by Twistedaudi at 2:24 PM 2-15-2005_


----------



## SAMMICHES (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (jaredpgh)*


----------



## Twistedaudi (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (SAMMICHES)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAMMICHES* »_









Ohhh, well that says a lot, VERY productive


----------



## jaredpgh (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (Twistedaudi)*

Twistedaudi:
I did not state an opinion, nor did I ask for one....
I am only looking for the technical differences in the cars between the pre- and post- sudden acceleration frenzy cars. I am writing an article about manufacturers' responsibility and reaction to government mandated recalls, especially when the media blows it up as much as they did with Audi back then. I am an Audi enthusiast, and I believe that the situation was hyped way past all reason, check my info - I drive one now, and I learned to drive on my Dad's 1986 5000S. 
PS - My inspiration for the article came from the fact that my tie rod ends failed in EXACTLY the same manner as stated in a recall, but AOA would not cover them due to my VIN # not being a part of the recall.
Thanks again everybody.


----------



## Twistedaudi (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (jaredpgh)*

Well since you decided to take such a hardass view of what I was trying to say, I guess I'll take my shot back.
I WASNT stating an opinion when I said that the cars "infected" with the supposed "Unintended Acceleration" were lacking shift-lock protection. In addition, once these devices were installed. (The Audi 200) the cases. "dropped off." 
http://www.autosafety.org/arti...d=887 
Wow, strange, it seems like The Center for Auto Safety concurs with my conclusion. When a company develops a car it does the best it can to prevent unfortunate accidents. I suppose no one forsaw idiots putting a car in gear either without the brake on, or even worse, having their foot on the wrong pedal.
Need some more information, other then the Auto Safety Center's opinion? How bout a feature written in 4 Car, (btw smartass, what magazine is it exactly that you plan on having your paper written? I cant wait to read a magazine article condemning Audi, but not Audi now, Audi almost 20 years ago.)
What's it that 4 Car wrote, hmm, "So Audi stuck its ground - it did not believe its cars would suddenly go mad and there was evidence, such as bent accelerator pedals, that customers were actually standing on the wrong pedal."
http://www.channel4.com/4car/f....html
Gee, the first two google searches I found had NOTHING to do with ANY technical modifications other than a locked shifter. The words "cruise control" are not found as the largest culprit in any articule I've found. So do a little research for your magic atricle, champ. Show me how "bad" Audi is, and a little evidence proving it. As for your Control Arm talk, I think I'f you're justified in what you're saying then Audi has wronged you. But I still see no parallel between Unintended Acceleration and a broken control arm.
Looks like my "opinion" you didnt want seems to be just about in line with everyone elses. 




_Modified by Twistedaudi at 12:59 PM 2-16-2005_


----------



## jaredpgh (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (Twistedaudi)*

Is that that new thing called sarcasm?
First off, why are you so defensive? Did you design the car?
At least in this nice flame you touched on the issue I was asking about. It's pretty funny that you would mention the Center for Auto Safety, because Mr. Clarence Ditlow, the director of the center, co-authored a nice little book. It's called "Sudden Acceleration - the Myth of Driver Error". Its in my library. Send me your address, and I'll send you a copy. You really should read the statistical and engineering design critique in the book about not only the BTSI (industry-speak for brake-transmission shift interlock), but the rest of the cruise control system in the Audi and also the Fords of the 1990s. 
Were you aware that this vehicle's TWO cruise control signal wires are supplied direct voltage as soon as the key is turned? Are you aware that the electrical system design in this car utilizes what is known as low-side switching? This means that all those little energized cruise control wires have to do at some point in the wiring harness is touch ground (and the ENTIRE engine and unibody structure of the vehicle are GROUNDED members), and there you go - 77% to 79% of full throttle - instantly (77% to 79% is as far as the cruise control can open the throttle). In my testing and research over the years, I have faulted the cruise control in this manner on several cars, Audis and others, and the result is scary. As far as what magazine I am writing my article for, its a popular newsletter in the forensic engineering community, its called Forensic Facts. Send me your address, and I'll forward you a copy as soon as they come back from litho. The quote from 4car magazine is pretty funny, because it has nothing to do with litigation settlements (an area that I am extremely familiar with through my Forensic Engineering company) or any hard evidence, it just states that Audi admitted to no wrongdoing, which is true, but off subject. The evidence of bent accelerator pedals has nothing to do with the sudden accelerations - who is to say when the pedal was bent? It could have been bent from the factory! And this little gem, "When a company develops a car it does the best it can to prevent unfortunate accidents" shows just how naive and unfamiliar with the automotive engineering community you are. You are obviously not familiar with the cost-benefit engineering and design structure of all automobile manufacturers, which rewards a cheaper-to-produce (and therefore cheaper in build quality) vehicle's engineering management with hefty bonuses. Again, I will reiterate that I do not think that Audi is bad or even that the design is negligent, I was just looking for some quick answers, but got a pseudo-flame, then a full-on flame from you. 
PS - what kind of a retard do you think I am - of course I searched Google first. It would be an awful waste of my MECHANICAL ENGINEERING degree to come to such an unreliable source - a public message board - for quality information. I also searched MotorAllData and NHTSA's website. In addition, I used my member benefits through SAE (the Society of Automotive Engineers) to access several articles written about sudden acceleration. I turned to these forums to get some information from enthusiasts, not to get flamed.
PPS - read my post, schmuck, it was my tie rod ends, not my control arms.
I think I'm done posting on this thread.
Thanks for nothing, well, at least a little entertainment


----------



## Twistedaudi (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (jaredpgh)*

"Is that a new thing called sarcasm?" - I don't know what you're talking about here. I wasn't being sarcastic, last I checked. You DID take a hardass view of my attempt to answer your question to the best of MY knowledge... And I'm curious what you had expected, asking on a public forum. (NOT, the most knowledgable Audi forum, in my opinion... but that point aside)
What else? Why am I defensive? I wasn't in the least bit, until you basically told me to take my answer to you and shove it. I was trying to show you that its a general concensus Audi really hadn't created some "lemon" with its design, but once again, you told me to screw off, and I told you why I was (and still believe I am) right.
You're talk of Audi's cruise control system is admittedly over my head. What grounding and wiring was used is a moot point in my mind. I've never had the need or desire to use the cruise control, and to be simply honest, have no idea if the systems are even functional on my cars. However, being simply a useless observer in this particular case, I can tell you without question in my mind, for an (audi 5000, pre '86) going 79% throttle from a stop to be too fast for people not to stop the cars(the brake pedal) is still unbelieveable to me. I tihnk the only way to explain it is the gas pedals. How can it be anything OTHER than operator error?
Furthermore, the quote about the broken pedals is moot? Come on now, you actually mean to tell me you think the multiple cars with broken gas pedals, involved in these incidents are coincidence? You're a Mechanical Engineer, hell you're proud enough to flaunt that around, you should know better then to dismiss such an OBVIOUS link from one to the other..
And about your engineering degree... Congradulations. I'm so proud of you... Where does that mean that you're above anyone else (you know nothing about), intellectually or otherwise? I'm too young to have a degree, But I am a full-time student... And I'd wager my "naive and unfamiliar" ass knows a little more than you seem to give it credit for.
Oh yeah about that naivity. You show me ONE Car company, EVER, that KNOWINGLY dveloped an obviously faulty product and sold it to the public? Hell, maybe I'm acting foolish here, but I've never heard of a company just not caring about a proven problem. Last I checked, Audi resolve the "problem" that was being produced. I'd love to read this guy's book, because he's the first person outside of 60 Minutes whom Ive heard of, by name, that thinks Audi was at fault) Of course comnpanies need to save money where they can. That's blatant... but I think you're being naive in thinking a comapny as respectable as they are would risk their name and image by putting out a product they knew to be faulty. BTW, (and I have no idea), but isnt aluminum actually more expensive then the metal usually used?
Anyway, should I be in a position where I should take my foot out of my mouth, I will. I think I'm a relatively respectable guy. Show me some proof that Audi was at fault. _But I''ll be very honest, I don't think you can... Had you real evidence, I think Audi would be out of business today. _
Nevertheless, do us all a favor and don't go leaving the forums, that's doing a misjustice to everyone you can help. I thinnkwe're gonna haev to agree that we're gonna disagree, but for a Mechanical Engineer to disappear because of a kid defending an opinion... itd just be stupid.


----------



## jaredpgh (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (Twistedaudi)*

Sam:
I am truly sorry that this has escalated to this point. I did not come to this discussion board to start a fight. Let me just say that myself and others have been able to build our careers in the failure analysis field because negligent designs DO exist, and they DO fail. Basically, what I do is very similar to the Mythbusters, only we look at accidents where people have been seriously injured and sometimes killed. What I have said comes from laboratory and field testing, and I know what I have seen. Since you have never experienced this sort of testing and simulation, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 
Also, why do you think car companies are in business? for fun? They are in it for the same reason you and I go to work each day - to make $money$. I will admit that Audi did not knowingly put out a bad product, and without the media hype, they would have been able to just settle out of court with the few genuine failures, since this would have been cheaper than fixing every car on the road (think of that scene from Fight Club where Ed Norton talks about the recall formula, it does exist, and it is used on almost every component on every car on the road, they're called FMEAs, or Failure Mode and Effects Analysis). With the hype, they could not afford to settle or even litigate every case, so they did the next best thing, which is protect all the idiots who did hit the wrong pedal from themselves with the BTSI. The sudden acceleration complaints did drop off with the BTSI in place, but they did not stop. I won't go into the electromagnetic interference that can cause inadvertent cruise control operation, nor will I go into the roughly $2 per car Zener diode package (a small anti-feedback circuit) that can prevent it. 
As far as the broken pedals, they did not look at cars that were NOT accused of sudden acceleration to verify that the pedals were NOT bent, so it could have been a manufacturing batch problem. And even if they were, then it was just the few idiots who DID hit the wrong pedal.
As far as hitting the brake pedal to stop a sudden acceleration event, think about your vacuum assist brake booster. Then think about trying to stop your car when it stalls... no vacuum from the manifold, so no boost for the brakes. If you pump it more than once, it gets even harder to stop. Your car produces the correct amount of vacuum for proper brake booster actuation from idle to 2000rpm. When your car is at or near the redline, there is almost no vacuum at all. In some cases, a positive pressure can even build up. Now put these two situations together, no brake booster and nearly full throttle, and only the 90th percentile of male drivers will be able to exert the nearly 200lbs of force on the brake pedal required to stop the car. And the car can still travel 20 to 30 feet before it stops completely. What if theres a pedestrian in the way? And by the way, I have seen cars with broken or bent BRAKE pedals too.
As far as knowingly producing a bad product, look at the Ford Pinto. A hard enough rear impact would send the bumper mounts into the plastic fuel tank, rupturing it, and possibly causing a fire. Ford used the cheaper plastic tank even though THEY OWNED THE PATENT ON A SAFER ONE. Look at the Corvair, any side impact would rupture the fuel lines which were run through the passenger's side rocker panels. Even after Ralph Nader (what an annoying sumbit he is) called this to attention, GM did not expend the money to make their customers safer. These designs were not produced because the safety aspects were overlooked, they were produced because they were CHEAPER than the safer alternative, and a few lost lives would cost the company less money in the long run. This is an industry that kills for a fraction of a cent (quoted from one of my professors), regardless of how "respectable" a company is. 
And sometimes settling a few pesky lawsuits is cheaper than fixing every car on the road, especially when you think that there are MILLIONS of cars being produced. I know that the general concensus is that the design was not flawed, but I believe it is. And not just in the Audi, in almost every car on the road. And there are many judges out there that have ruled AGAINST auto companies, and there are even more engineers and technicians who agree with me. So if a piece of evidence that is allowed to be used in a lawsuit in a state's supreme court isnt hard enough evidence for you, I dont know what is. And even if Audi did have to settle each and every complaint, they would not be out of business, because they have insurance coverage for things of this nature, and there are definitely enough hardcore Audi fans out there. 
I would really be happy to discuss this further with you or anyone else with an open mind, I mean, it's what I do for a living. I'll put aside my "hardass" attitude if you put aside your sarcasm. I'll bet you do know alot more than what I gave you credit for in my last post, but you just werent showing it








BTW, whats up with the aluminum question? which part of the car are you referring to? I want to answer the question for you.
-Jared


----------



## StormChaser (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Sudden Acceleration (jaredpgh)*

OK, y'all...I'm not gonna have any crying babies or childish behavior in these forums.................... you should go back the the VW MkIV forums where you can act like children if you want. This topic is done. 
P.S. There was NO Unintended Acceleration, it was caused by idiots standing on the wrong pedal and a case of pure fraud by a TV News rag (they rigged a car to misbehave and lost the lawsuit by Audi big time)...


----------

