# bent cranks anyone?



## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*bent 16VT cranks anyone?*

ive been pushing the limits of the stock 9a forged crank. wondering if anybody else out ther has bent or broken any 2.0l cranks out there.










_Modified by chadillac17 at 5:03 PM 11-6-2008_


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*FV-QR*

did you break one??


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (turbodub)*

None yet. Broken main caps though.


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## 91gti_wolfsburg (Mar 15, 2005)

^^Time for a bearing girdle.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (91gti_wolfsburg)*

billet mains caps fixed the problem...


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_billet mains caps fixed the problem...

so you gonna tell us what you got going on with that motor?


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (turbodub)*

didnt think you cared... j/k been running the car for about ten years as a hobby. ran 7.95 with 1.8 8v non-crossflow in 2000. used a turbonetics t61, 50lbs boost, and 100shot of oxide. couldnt get anymore out of it so been experimenting with the ABA/16v combo. use motec with (8) 170lbs injectors, methanol, Vance & Hines did the head. Car put down 750hp on the dyno and maxed out the turbo. Then crashed the car at 170mph at Fontana Speedway. Jus got the car back together and put the GT42R on. Trying to make that 1000hp mark. Has anyone done it with a 16VT?


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

you must produce PICTURESSSSSSSSSS


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## fooliojesus (Aug 17, 2006)

1000hp would show the rest of the tuning worlds what a great motor the aba 16vt is.


_Modified by fooliojesus at 3:31 PM 11-6-2008_


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## haenszel (Mar 14, 2004)

*Re: (fooliojesus)*

jesus christ..... noob of the year?


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## rodney_dubs (Mar 2, 2008)

The guys in PR allegedy did it resulting in the infamous picture of the split in half block.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (rodney_dubs)*

We were starting to see some funny wear on the center main and finally micd the crank and found it was bent .007. So if any body is given good deals on billet cranks now is your time to shine and b part of the worlds fastest vw 16v.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

Dont have many pics of the new setup but will keep you guys posted. heres the first shake down pass of the new car. didn't run the wing cause it was damaged in crash. sorry vid is so long, dont know how to cut the bs out.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLR3LcsVub4


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*FV-QR*

awesome ****! figured it was a dragster and not a fwd car! wish i had more info on the crank for you, never experienced any issues so far with my crank, eventhough im only at about 600hp. as far as i know there aint jack for billet anything on these motors. try asking killa or issam(ina) they keep up and have alot more knowledge of that stuff. anyways cool car hope all works out and any more pics or specs on the motor itself? vance&hines huh? harley guys!


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (turbodub)*

vanes & hines motorsports division does a lot of the prostock suzuki bikes. So head has titanium valves retainers all oversized. Prostock valve springs 10:1 compression. JE pistons, pauter rods. Hilborn belt drive fuel pump and SX methanol pump. Webcam camshafts, had problems wih Kent internal adjustable gears. anyone? direct port nitrous used to stall. Nothin much, but workin on it this weekend so ill take som pics as i go for all yall.


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## 91gti_wolfsburg (Mar 15, 2005)

that thing sounds like death on wheels.
Sounds like the god of thunder is gargling a bag of hammers.
Awesome.


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## JDMLOL (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: (91gti_wolfsburg)*

Holy ****!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_We were starting to see some funny wear on the center main and finally micd the crank and found it was bent .007. So if any body is given good deals on billet cranks now is your time to shine and b part of the worlds fastest vw 16v.

You are not going to break the crank....trust me on that.
The week point in these engines are:
* The IM Shaft
* The main caps
What I did was run a girdle,billet main caps & deleted the IM shaft all together.Every 037/058 block I have seen that split,split right @ the IM shaft section.Killa should be chiming in soon enough (if you do not know him allready) but what is possible and what is not possible.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Ive been running th im shaft for years and finally snapped one, but think because we took too much material off when lightening it. since then changed oil to synthetic redline and stop doing 11k burnouts when its cold. saw a thread on the drysump stuff some where, but dont know if they figured out a cool kit. might have to make one my self.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

im glad to here from you guys, issam. you say that the im and caps are the weak links. have you had problems lifting heads?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_saw a thread on the drysump stuff some where, but dont know if they figured out a cool kit. might have to make one my self.

Yup,all figured out
















What was your diameter of the IM shaft after machining it? I found that the Mexican IM shafts were the worst units to come off of VAG's assembly line.As for lifting the head,I have only had experience with 36psi so I can not speak for anything beyond that.If you give me a couple of weeks I might have something for you.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

thanks for the info on the mexican im shafts. i think when we lighten it we squared the cut up to the journal, now we radius it. if you dont run an im shaft, what timing belt are you running?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_thanks for the info on the mexican im shafts. i think when we lighten it we squared the cut up to the journal, now we radius it. if you dont run an im shaft, what timing belt are you running?

Custom unit with a smaller gear that sits where the IM shaft once was.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

I see. have you ever heat treated any of your cranks for strength?


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## TURBOPHIL (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

Impressive!! What transmission are you using? Powerglide?


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (TURBOPHIL)*

yup just two speed. 9" rear. that part of it is solid. but the converter cant hang. all i have to say is tune on the dyno and not the converter.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

turbodub had problems with same kent internal gears.


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_yup just two speed. 9" rear. that part of it is solid. but the converter cant hang. all i have to say is tune on the dyno and not the converter.

Thought that sounded like a Powerglide, how did you adapt the Bellhousing to the block? Custom adapter? What converter are you using? And for the love of GOD WE NEED PICS!!!!!


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*FV-QR*

not the same problems though!


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (turbodub)*

sorry guys. working on the new cranks this weekend then ill have some build pics for ya. shes in a buncha pieces right naw. used custom aluminum motorplates to join the mtor to the tranny.







thats all i have for now

_Modified by chadillac17 at 10:03 PM 11-7-2008_


_Modified by chadillac17 at 10:10 PM 11-7-2008_


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (chadillac17)*

So sexy!


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Weiss)*

thanks for the props. that lil baby lookin turbo really is a gt42r. it looks small in pics.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (chadillac17)*

on issam's dry sump. have u fired that baby up yet and tried it out? have u seen any difference in bearing lubrication?


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Wow, very impressive!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
It's a 2.slow, whaaaaaaaaaat?? haha


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Jay-Bee)*

we are gonna pull the crank out this winter to check to see wear, we went whole season with Cast AEG crank with no problems, making over 700hp with 625+WHP with it. We should make 700whp next year with new motor. sled looks good and very nice set up.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

looking very nice..one of my friends are building a vw 16v with a gt42r..he changed the 9a bootom end out with at tdi bottom end..a lot people said it is a lot stronger..but i don´t know if they are right..


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

thanks bro. what blocks are people using to put 100mm cranks in? by the way I saw your 3.6 post. nice. I think we might step it up to the VR but want to get the WC record with a 4 banger first.


_Modified by chadillac17 at 1:29 PM 11-8-2008_


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

thanks..if i were you i would not use a 100mm crank..you need high rpm on your engine..i know that the tdi block is higher then the 9a block..16mm if i rembember correct..







im looking forward to see how fast you are going with the new setup.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

isnt the tdi a 95.5mm i think 100mm is a custom crank.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_thanks..if i were you i would not use a 100mm crank..you need high rpm on your engine..i know that the tdi block is higher then the 9a block..16mm if i rembember correct..







im looking forward to see how fast you are going with the new setup.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

The thing is no one really knows anything about the 100mm cranks other than what Oettinger sold in the late 80's/early 90's and those were all in 220mm blocks.
I will be taking apart the bearings every couple of weeks to inspect them but I am confident that the 100mm crank in the 236mm block will go to 9000 rpm's no issues.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

doesnt eurospec or some other companies offer a 100mm?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_doesnt eurospec or some other companies offer a 100mm?

Eurospec is the only company right now that offers the 100mm crank.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

it is not the tdi crank he is using only the block from a tdi..it is not because i think 100mm crank is a bad crank..but it is not a good crank for high rpm..im talking 9500/10.000rpm..then the piston speed will be to high..high rpm is the way to go on a 4 cyl gt42 powered enginge look at the hondas and evos..


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_itim talking 9500/10.000rpm..then the piston speed will be to high..high rpm is the way to go on a 4 cyl gt42 powered enginge look at the *hondas and evos*..

Look at their connecting rod lengths & rod ratios and compare it to ours with respect to their stroker cranks.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

150mm on the evos..it is almost the same on a vw 16v..144 mm on 9a..the engine with the tdi bootom end will go with 159mm rods..stock length on eu´s abf(2,0 16v)he will put a crank in it will smaller stroke and then go high rpm..


_Modified by VR6-GT42RS at 8:06 AM 11-9-2008_


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## lap (Nov 20, 2005)

b18c1 has a very bad rod/ratio (like ~1.5), but its reving 9000rpm and more...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (lap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lap* »_b18c1 has a very bad rod/ratio (like ~1.5), but its reving 9000rpm and more...

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_150mm on the evos..it is almost the same on a vw 16v..144 mm on 9a..the engine with the tdi bootom end will go with 159mm rods..stock length on eu´s abf(2,0 16v)he will put a crank in it will smaller stroke and then go high rpm..

The 4G63 Mitsubishi guys take the 2.4L Brian Crower kit to 8000+ rpm's
Specs on the kit:

_Quote »_








*4G63 Stock Specs:*
* 85mm Bore x 88mm Stroke with a 150mm connecting rod in a 229mm block.
Rod ratio = *1.71*
Compression Height = 35mm
*Brian Crower Specs:*
* 86mm Bore x 102mm Stroke with a 150mm connecting rod in a 229mm block.
Rod ratio = *1.47*
Compression Height = 28mm


Right now my 2.2L motor has 159mm rods & 99mm stroke (rod ratio = 1.61).Even with the 100mm stroke he is still has an acceptable : 1.59 rod ratio which is GREATER than the 1.55 found on the stock 9A & VW's FSI motors.The only component I can see with respect to bearing damage is the weight of the crankshaft which is non issue considering the 100mm crank is 12.5kg (27.5lbs) vs the 29lbs of a stock 1.8T crank.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

i see what you mean..but your 2,2 ltr is not a engine build for high rpms..here in denmark we have a complete ams powered evo this year he ran with their 2,3ltr gt42 engine 973hp..now he wants to go gt45r but his problem was that he could not go higher rpm on the 2,3ltr engine so now he builds a 2,1ltr instead(smaller stroke..higher rpm)


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_i see what you mean..but your 2,2 ltr is not a engine build for high rpms..here in denmark we have a complete ams powered evo this year he ran with their 2,3ltr gt42 engine 973hp..now he wants to go gt45r but his problem was that he could not go higher rpm on the 2,3ltr engine so now he builds a 2,1ltr instead(smaller stroke..higher rpm) 

Depends what the vehicle is being used for.In order for him to go to a GT45R he needs AT LEAST 9500 rpm limit.Even on a 2.9 VR6 motor,a GT45R does not start spooling till roughly 5900 rpm's,I can only imagine what that would be like on a 2.1L...








My engine will find itself into a racing chassis which I have been building for eons....every month I redo a component so it is taking a long time.The reason I chose the 2.2L was because:
A) No one has done it (and if it was done,it was not documented) so we REALLY do not know how the motor will behave long term.
B) I am building a time attack style vehicle,not a drag race vehicle.
C) I want to compare it to a 2.0L built to a similar spec.
AMS did the exact same thing:

_Quote »_
*AMS 2.1 Drag Car:*



















_Quote »_
*AMS 2.3L Time Attack Car:*


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

i know ..because ams build it for him..but the car on the pic runs precisions gt42/45(only the compressor wheel is gt45) his new engine will be build with a real gt45r..he want to rev over 10k rpms..i understand why you want to build something new..it is always nice..and i have it the same way my self..


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_and i have it the same way my self..









I know








ssssh


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

so which 99mm are you using? and what bore?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_so which 99mm are you using? and what bore?

I am using the Oettinger 99mm crankshaft (uber rare) and 83mm bore JE custom pistons.I went for the Oettinger crankshaft because at the time the Eurospec 100mm unit was not available.


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## Lloyd Plumtree (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_I see. have you ever heat treated any of your cranks for strength?

Cryo?


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Lloyd Plumtree)*

not sure what my crank guy is going to recommend this time. im dropping them off tmrw.


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## 2SLoWGTI (Sep 22, 2003)

Just wondeirng if your still on a hydro head ?


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

That is awesome! I had an ABA/16V with Motec in my MK3 back in the day, i thought it was bad ass with 380 whp! Good luck man.


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## Lloyd Plumtree (Aug 13, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I can`t take it! More info on your set up please!


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## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Lloyd Plumtree)*

my brother still wants to stick my Turbo'd VR into a rail just to run into the low 9s high 8s








that is nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (lap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lap* »_b18c1 has a very bad rod/ratio (like ~1.5), but its reving 9000rpm and more...

...lost. What does the rod ratio represent and why is it important? Sorry for the newb question.


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## steve12345 (Jan 8, 2006)

With a small rod ratio (<1.5), the rod is essentially trying to push the piston through the side of the bore in stead of up and down. This means more friction/cylinder wear on the thrust side of the bore and the cylinder pressure is not applied to the crank throw as efficiently. Also, longer rod ratios (~1.7) have more dwell at bdc and tdc which tends to favor higher rpm performance. It all needs to be balanced with cam profile and port sizing to tune optimal cylinder filling and scavenging.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (rodney_dubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rodney_dubs* »_The guys in PR allegedy did it resulting in the infamous picture of the split in half block. 

That wasn't PR, that was Brazil


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: bent 16VT cranks anyone? (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_ive been pushing the limits of the stock 9a forged crank. wondering if anybody else out ther has bent or broken any 2.0l cranks out there.









_Modified by chadillac17 at 5:03 PM 11-6-2008_

There was an old rumor of either Rolo, El Gato or Ivan Rabbit popping a 9A crank on the dyno around the 750whp mark, this was anywhere between 1999 and 2000. I've spoken to Rolo and forgot to confirm this, PM me if you want me more info


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*

As for lifting the head, i've ran over 30psi on stock gasket with ARP's with no problem, ran around 30 with re-used oem bolts still no problem.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (killa)*

so where are your weak links with making more power? bent rods? pounding bearings? fuel?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_so where are your weak links with making more power? bent rods? pounding bearings? fuel?

His dog Diesel...


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

lets leave diesel out of this..


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_so where are your weak links with making more power? bent rods? pounding bearings? fuel?

the first setup was on digi1, only had 52lb injectors, the second setup was with a standalone but stock fuel lines, fuel pump and bottom end, just lowered via 9A pistons on ABA rods (rebushed)
I think the 9A crank can actually take more abuse than the 750 reported, could have been an issue unknown to us.
Fuel used was Methanol


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (killa)*

wow. we max out (8) 170lbs/hr on methanol with manual cog drive pump set at 100lbs fuel pressure plus SX methanol pump. and your using stock fuel sytem???


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_wow. we max out (8) 170lbs/hr on methanol with manual cog drive pump set at 100lbs fuel pressure plus SX methanol pump. and your using stock fuel sytem???

It's not a race car.
The first setup was regular cis with an Haltech F5 AIC, regular T3 in 2002, second setup was a differnt car whose goal was 300whp under 1k, used digi1, mopar 52lb'ers, made that power, then my car again, goal was 400whp with stock internals, did that and more. 
So far met all of the goal, but it's on gas so i wouldn't need the run twice the fuel for the same hp as methanol.
The PR people really like the Meth whereas Brazilians tend to go for Ethanol first.
Lugnuts tuned Joel Brown's car on Meth, running 8 160 injectors straight from idle controlled via an autronic SM4 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif car made a cool [email protected] 32psi IIRC, details are on my site.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (killa)*

sounds like some great numbers. My crank issue might have just been a fluke. we are jus using 9a cranks for now. I was trying to see if anyone knew the part numbers on the obd1 cranks from the ABA's.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_sounds like some great numbers. My crank issue might have just been a fluke. we are jus using 9a cranks for now. I was trying to see if anyone knew the part numbers on the obd1 cranks from the ABA's.

It could have been a fluke, seems like you were above that 750whp mark anyway.
Joel's meth car was making a bit over that with the 95.5mm crank
some pics
engine bay








dyno








71mm induced turbo non BB
Here's mine:

http://boostfactory.net/article.php?id=32
Motor's finally built, very easy to drive everyday.
got pics of the crank? someone'll google the part number


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

I've done a lot of research into cranshaft design and optimization lately. I haven't done anything involving this specific case, but I figured I would post up a few things which hopefully will never become important. 
Issues to consider when going with a bigger crank: 
The bigger you make the stroke, the less overlap there is between the meat of the main journal and that of the rod journal. This reduces torsional stiffness as well as stiffness under bending. In short, with two similar cranks, one with a bigger stroke- the bigger one is going to flop around more under the same cylinder pressures. This lowers the natural frequencies f the crankshaft. 
The bigger crank will require more counterweight to balance it. This may require a compromise, because the bigger the counterweights are, the lower the natural frequency of the crank is. You can reduce the percentage it is balanced, a lot of modern cranks are not fully balanced anyways- but the tradeoff is higher main bearing loads. I have no clue where eurospec decided to go with that. 
Anyways, if you do run into the natural frequency of the crank at one of its various harmonics, then forces in the crank can really "crank up" (oh man, that was bad...). If you start seeing damaged bearings, or funky wear, or worse, flywheels that won't stay attached- a really good crank damper might be the cure to that scenario. 
The other problem that MIGHT be encountered when revving the piss out of a huge stroke motor is excessive blowby. If your ring pack is too heavy, the gas pressure may not be enough to force the rings down and seat them against the piston and then outwards against the cylinder due to the big acceleration of the piston downwards. So, if you were to run into a lot of blow-by, one possible cause, or solution, may be a lighter ring pack. 
Lastly, you may experience a lot of wear from the piston speed, and unfortunately there isn't a whole lot you can do about that. If it were to become a problem cyro treating the block may be an answer or partial solution anyways, it does supposedly help a lot with wear and it is not just a surface treatment so it can be bored / honed without loosing it. 
Hopefully nobody runs into any of those situations, but if any of them do happen, hopefully this post will provide a little food for thought.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (saltlake20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saltlake20v* »_a really good crank damper might be the cure to that scenario.
Running a prototype unit right now








Most of what you posted is Theory though Pete....not enough concrete data out there.Only way is to document it which I plan on doing as I have done in the past.


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

actually, there is 100 years worth of studies and data on it, crankshafts are not exactly cutting edge... I've got a whole stack of papers off SAE and ASME on my desk the good majority of which back up their theories / calculation with empirical data / results. A lot of it correlates very nicely. 
The older stuff deals with hand calculations and the newer stuff is mostly FEA based. 
In any case, my intent was not to be the miser / downer in the forum but rather to post some things to watch for and possible solutions to them. 
I'm anxious to hear / see your results with the BIG crank, my setup is not as extreme. It will be fun though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by saltlake20v at 10:51 PM 11-11-2008_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (saltlake20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saltlake20v* »_
I'm anxious to hear / see your results with the BIG crank, my setup is not as extreme. It will be fun though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

My post above was pertaining to the 99mm/100mm crankshafts.
I am well aware of the theory Pete as I have access to the same documents you do seeing that I am certified Engineer (B.Eng).My point was that all this stroker motor talk and there is only 1 single thread in the entire existance of vortex.If we all followed the theory we would still be thinking the K03 was the best turbocharger for the 1.8T motor.
However I am confident in my results and so far everything is going great.


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

K03 is the best turbocharger- for 150-180 hp








Nothing wrong with the theory behind that. 
How high are you turning it so far?


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I am well aware of the theory Pete as I have access to the same documents you do seeing that I am certified Engineer (B.Eng).

They don't teach FEA in Civil Eng, much less NVHC which is where harmonics would come into play as well as design of harmonic dampeners. That's grad. school territory.







What would be interesting is different weights of the cranks compared to packaging dimensions. Some will tell you that all the cranks have to be the same since they fit in the same blocks, but experience rules that out. 


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:31 AM 11-12-2008_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_As for lifting the head, i've ran over 30psi on stock gasket with ARP's with no problem, ran around 30 with re-used oem bolts still no problem.


thanks, it's about time someone else said the obvious
you can reuse head bolts 3xs before you start reusing another set


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## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

How you work to stop blowing head gaskets?


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: (hardcore racer)*

so, was this the first crank that was bent?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (hardcore racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hardcore racer* »_How you work to stop blowing head gaskets? 

More even clamping force across the surface








your end result:








Notice how there's different shades of magents through the second picture, this is due less pressure being applied in those areas creating a good path for headgasket destruction.
You can then pseudocolor it, get 2 and 3D graphs, pressure histrograms, linescans, total force, contact area and exact pressure.
I can't really mention names of the companies who are currently using the material but i can assure you that 90% of OEM's are testing their products this way. 
Here's an example of 3D graph in a clamping application:


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

*Re: (hardcore racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hardcore racer* »_How you work to stop blowing head gaskets? 


flat surfaces and LOTS of clamping force. 
Compared to some other cars (bmw M50 for example) vw watercooled 4's hardly ever have headgasket issues, especially when the bore sizes are kept ~sane.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
More even clamping force across the surface


there is a lot of technical talk which I love personally. sometimes it comes down to just too much cylinder pressure and not enough clamping force. or just bring your tune with boost down a bit. with the 8V setup 15 years ago we ran the car with fuel spraying out out the side of the block and head with 50lbs of boost and nitrous. thats all we could do to make more power, turn up the boost. Now its a lot different with all of the monitoring features and EFI, bigger more efficient turbos. But I do like where the forum is going, but my car only needs to be on power for a little over 7 seconds. hopefully 6 soon.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_
there is a lot of technical talk which I love personally. sometimes it comes down to just too much cylinder pressure and not enough clamping force. or just bring your tune with boost down a bit. with the 8V setup 15 years ago we ran the car with fuel spraying out out the side of the block and head with 50lbs of boost and nitrous. thats all we could do to make more power, turn up the boost. Now its a lot different with all of the monitoring features and EFI, bigger more efficient turbos. But I do like where the forum is going, but my car only needs to be on power for a little over 7 seconds. hopefully 6 soon.

Yes, we have the tools to do so, feel free to hit me up via IM and I'll see what I can do as far as getting some pressure indicating film and digital imaging done, it's VERY costly otherwise


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Adam[email protected]* »_They don't teach FEA in Civil Eng, much less NVHC which is where harmonics would come into play as well as design of harmonic dampeners.

Well lucky for me I went to *UNIVERSITY*,NOT COLLEGE and I transferred *OUT OF* Mechanical Engineering with a couple of courses left allowing me to take Finite Element Analysis.I am honoured that you follow me around trying to post quirky comments but I suggest you stay in the 1.8T forum as the forced Induction forum has 0 tolerance for you and your "knowledge".This topic is not about you,go be a celeb in your respective forum.
Thanks for your input.

_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_not enough clamping force.

Why not go with a different block?


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_

Why not go with a different block?

I am definetly up for suggestions. I havent come across too many discussions on blocks. We are currently using an OBD1 ABA block. with 1/2" ARP studs. seemed to help out this year adding the 1/2" studs, but crushing the head.


_Modified by chadillac17 at 11:03 AM 11-12-2008_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_
I am definetly up for suggestions. I havent come across too many discussions on blocks. We are currently using an OBD1 ABA block. with 1/2" ARP studs. seemed to help out this year adding the 1/2" studs, but crushing the head.

What about moving to the stroker ALH block?The block has ALOT more ribbing in it and it uses a 12 x 1.5mm thread in the block.What you can do is get 12 x 1.5mm studs from ARP and just drill the 16V head to accept the 12mm diameter stud (stock is 11 as you know).


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (18T_BT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Well lucky for me I went to *UNIVERSITY*,NOT COLLEGE and I transferred *OUT OF* Mechanical Engineering with a couple of courses left allowing me to take Finite Element Analysis.I am honoured that you follow me around trying to post quirky comments but I suggest you stay in the 1.8T forum as the forced Induction forum has 0 tolerance for you and your "knowledge".This topic is not about you,go be a celeb in your respective forum.
Thanks for your input.


No problem.

u⋅ni⋅ver⋅si⋅ty
   /ˌyunəˈvɜrsɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [yoo-nuh-vur-si-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
an institution of learning of the highest level, having a college of liberal arts and a program of graduate studies together with several professional schools, as of theology, law, medicine, and engineering, and authorized to confer both undergraduate and graduate degrees.
Get over yourself, you're not a moderator and it's you that has zero tolerance. 


_Quote, originally posted by *18T_BT* »_so, was this the first crank that was bent?

Any concensus?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (18T_BT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *18T_BT* »_so, was this the first crank that was bent?

No


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
No

So what were the others?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
So what were the others? 

I've posted above, forgot if it was Rolo, El Gato or Ivan in PR, this was around the turn of the century.


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

What are you torquing the 1/2" studs to? 
Those bigger diameter studs take more torque on the nut to generate the same clamping force, of course they will also go a lot higher. It's a fine line between getting enough stretch on the stud so it heat cycles ok and not squashing the head into a cupcake tray when you get into those real big studs. 
is the block / head o ringed?


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (saltlake20v)*

100ft/lbs. the block was oringed and that is when we had most of the trouble. instead, took out the oring and we used MLG and 1/2 stud.


_Modified by chadillac17 at 12:52 PM 11-12-2008_


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## zrp (Sep 6, 2005)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_100ft/lbs. the block was oringed and that is when we had most of the trouble. instead, took out the oring and we used MLG and 1/2 stud.

the 1/2 stud is a great approach.
i have been battling head lifting on the mitsu motors for a while and i comes down to stud material. the plain arp studs are just junk they will stretch under 40+ psi sometime even at lower psi 33
arp has a lm19 stud that is almost twice as good. the other problem i found is that arp's torque specs suck as well what i normally do is torque the head down to manufactures spec that runs that mls gasket
for example arp want 80 and the service manuls want 25 - 90degrees - 90degreess which the vw stuff is very similar. which on a torque reading is ruffly around last checked 140-150 lbs/ft
i have noticed that the head stays on the block much longer than torquing to there advertized specs.
if you have a hard time getting good quality studs i have a machine shop that can get you some studs for your vw motor he has had some made for the guys down in pr. just pm me
best of luck in 2009 season
glad to see someone pushing these vw wngines to the limit
Joe
ZRP


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (zrp)*

Thanks for the input. man, 100 ft/lbs is a lot. i don't think the block or the head for that matter could take 150 ft/lbs. I will definetly look into you recommendation though. anybody else torqueing head studs over 100ft/lbs with a 1/2 stud?


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
What about moving to the stroker ALH block?The block has ALOT more ribbing in it and it uses a 12 x 1.5mm thread in the block.What you can do is get 12 x 1.5mm studs from ARP and just drill the 16V head to accept the 12mm diameter stud (stock is 11 as you know).

The block looks a lil beefier. does the ALH come in the 99-02 or so TDI? does it have int. shaft or how does the oil pump work and flow? looks like the injector pump could be replaced with a dry sump and keep the same timing belt system?


_Modified by chadillac17 at 5:05 PM 11-12-2008_


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

Well, for one thing, 100 ft-lb on a 1/2" stud is only roughly the same actual clamping force as about 85 ft-lb on a 11mm stud, so you aren't crushing it as much as you would think. 
That film isn't the cheapest thing ever, but you could certainly start with your 100 ft-lbs and work up until it becomes odvious the head is distorting around the bolt holes (or block). 
MLS gasket + lots of clamping force is definitely the ticket, if the head and block will allow it. 
ALH is a MK4 based motor so the oil pump is chain driven off the crank just inside behind the crank pulley. It takes a bit of work on the oil system (oil filter housing especially) and a bit of creativity to get a gasser timing belt onto it, but it can and has been done. 
It's been a while since I have looked at a 16v head off the car. I know it's a lot less cramped then a 20v head, but is there any chance you could add anything to spread the load out better? even a big thick washer like insert or something might let you crank on it quite a bit more.


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## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: (killa)*

Don't forget the Me & Jan in the HARDCORE RABBIT that ran 9 sec. with the VW 010 aut. trans. There other people over here in PR that are running very fast like Vitito in he's awesome Corrado with 7.3 sec.
Anyway this is a nice thread.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (hardcore racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hardcore racer* »_ Don't forget the Me & Jan in the HARDCORE RABBIT that ran 9 sec. with the VW 010 aut. trans. There other people over here in PR that are running very fast like Vitito in he's awesome Corrado with 7.3 sec.
Anyway this is a nice thread. 

Yes Luiche, i know about the others in PR and your and Jan's rabbit was very impressive.
Too bad Jan can't down more than 2 coronas without getting tipsy








Let me know the next time you're in NJ and we can meet up again. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

I can get the best price on film bar none, feel free to IM if you guys want to try this stuff


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## Lloyd Plumtree (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_I can get the best price on film bar none, feel free to IM if you guys want to try this stuff

IM Sent


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## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: (killa)*

Killa, I went last Water fest with Victor and rigth now i'm working hard in my MKIV VR6 turbo almost ready. I got many plans for 2009 let see what hapen over here with the Time Attack Racing if it's DEAD i''ll be back on DRAG 100%.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_
The block looks a lil beefier. does the ALH come in the 99-02 or so TDI? does it have int. shaft or how does the oil pump work and flow? looks like the injector pump could be replaced with a dry sump and keep the same timing belt system?

The advantage of the ALH block is the following:
* No IM shaft
* Increased ribbing in the crankcase
* Taller deck height @ 236mm (same as ABA)
* Oil return for the turbocharger in the block.
* Provision for 12mm stud
The only disadvantage is the oil filter housing and the deck.We sell a complete conversion kit for the ALH block that will allow you to use the 06A 1.8T oil filter housing and all the deck plugs you need for the block.
With a 16V head the sky is the limit in terms of what you can do in the head stud department.ARP lists various lengths that I am sure will work for you.As for the dry sump,I just completed the 06A kit that will work on any block post 2000.
Chadillac if you prefer to take this offline both Killa & myself can help you out with what you need.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (zrp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zrp* »_
the 1/2 stud is a great approach.
i have been battling head lifting on the mitsu motors for a while and i comes down to stud material. the plain arp studs are just junk they will stretch under 40+ psi sometime even at lower psi 33
arp has a lm19 stud that is almost twice as good. the other problem i found is that arp's torque specs suck as well what i normally do is torque the head down to manufactures spec that runs that mls gasket
for example arp want 80 and the service manuls want 25 - 90degrees - 90degreess which the vw stuff is very similar. which on a torque reading is ruffly around last checked 140-150 lbs/ft
i have noticed that the head stays on the block much longer than torquing to there advertized specs.
if you have a hard time getting good quality studs i have a machine shop that can get you some studs for your vw motor he has had some made for the guys down in pr. just pm me
best of luck in 2009 season
glad to see someone pushing these vw wngines to the limit
Joe
ZRP









Last place i would ever think to bump into you in. 
OP: sick car and I hope that you reach your goals for the comming season. Have you considered using microtech to strengthen components? Info is avail off of crane cams site... i've heard great things about it.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (ANT THE KNEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ANT THE KNEE* »_







Last place i would ever think to bump into you in. 


Yeah, team ZRP, isn't Mike L (Larcher) one the members? I used to troll njdsm quite a lot..


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (hardcore racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hardcore racer* »_ Killa, I went last Water fest with Victor and rigth now i'm working hard in my MKIV VR6 turbo almost ready. I got many plans for 2009 let see what hapen over here with the Time Attack Racing if it's DEAD i''ll be back on DRAG 100%.


I went as far as the parking lot to pick up a transmission for my audi then went back home since i was busy as ****.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (killa)*

I did a little research and really like the idea of this stuff.
_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
More even clamping force across the surface








your end result:








Notice how there's different shades of magents through the second picture, this is due less pressure being applied in those areas creating a good path for headgasket destruction.
You can then pseudocolor it, get 2 and 3D graphs, pressure histrograms, linescans, total force, contact area and exact pressure.
I can't really mention names of the companies who are currently using the material but i can assure you that 90% of OEM's are testing their products this way. 
Here's an example of 3D graph in a clamping application:










have you used it before on the deck to head mating surface?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_I did a little research and really like the idea of this stuff.
have you used it before on the deck to head mating surface?

No, but whatever it may be it will pick it up. We sell material to Nascar teams every month. If interested then i'll hook it up


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
No, but whatever it may be it will pick it up. We sell material to Nascar teams every month. If interested then i'll hook it up

Speaking about Nascar..what about those "Nascar" headgaskets that are now avail for most imports. It's that super sticky stuff..don't know what the actuall name is though. I know alot of DSM guys and Honda guys had problems with heads lifting off till they went with this HG.


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## syncrogti (Sep 5, 2005)

*Re: vw specialties*

I thought I remembered Ron Wood from VW specialties in huntington beach broke a 16v crank in his audi rally car running MOTEC. Could be wrong though. Great guy, fast as hell and his car looked like poopoo.


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## slow85golf (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: vw specialties (syncrogti)*

Bump for more info/pics


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (ANT THE KNEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ANT THE KNEE* »_
Speaking about Nascar..what about those "Nascar" headgaskets that are now avail for most imports. It's that super sticky stuff..don't know what the actuall name is though. I know alot of DSM guys and Honda guys had problems with heads lifting off till they went with this HG. 

Not sure I know what you're talking about, have any more info on it?


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## mirror (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: (ANT THE KNEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ANT THE KNEE* »_
Speaking about Nascar..what about those "Nascar" headgaskets that are now avail for most imports. It's that super sticky stuff..don't know what the actuall name is though. I know alot of DSM guys and Honda guys had problems with heads lifting off till they went with this HG. 

you must be talking about o-ringing the block. this offers a better possitive seal around the bores for the gasket. the only thing that will keep your head from lifting is proper tq on quality head studs/bolts.


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (mirror)*

Nascar headgasket? Mullet FTW.


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## purple-pill (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
It's not a race car.
The first setup was regular cis with an Haltech F5 AIC, regular T3 in 2002, second setup was a differnt car whose goal was 300whp under 1k, used digi1, mopar 52lb'ers, made that power, then my car again, goal was 400whp with stock internals, did that and more. 
So far met all of the goal, but it's on gas so i wouldn't need the run twice the fuel for the same hp as methanol.
The PR people really like the Meth whereas Brazilians tend to go for Ethanol first.
Lugnuts tuned Joel Brown's car on Meth, running 8 160 injectors straight from idle controlled via an autronic SM4 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif car made a cool [email protected] 32psi IIRC, details are on my site.

Autronic SM2


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## purple-pill (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Running a prototype unit right now








Most of what you posted is Theory though Pete....not enough concrete data out there.Only way is to document it which I plan on doing as I have done in the past.

Let me know when you have a damper that is SFI approved.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (purple-pill)*

11-28-08 gettin the itch again....
That's wassup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 20thAEGti1009 (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: (killa)*

I just recently bent a 92.8mm Eurospec crank. It was only bent 0.005 inches but it was enough to cause me to spin a rod bearing at 7600 rpm.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Nascar headgasket? Mullet FTW. 








I'll get more info on it for ya..but it's really a really sticky gasket that holds. DSM guys have been running it with lots of success after having probs with heads lifting off. Like is said though... i'll try and get a name for you guys.







....by the way does a longer Mohawk count as a mullet


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (ANT THE KNEE)*

Gasket is made by felpro...it's the permatorque MLS gasket. It comes sandwiched in wax paper and it's a one shot deal.. if you mess up putting it down you gotta get a new one.


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## chadillac17 (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (20thAEGti1009)*

.
_Quote, originally posted by *20thAEGti1009* »_I just recently bent a 92.8mm Eurospec crank. It was only bent 0.005 inches but it was enough to cause me to spin a rod bearing at 7600 rpm.

Finally picked up the cranks from my machinist, found that the crank that was pushing metal on the center main was cracked in three spots. the radius on cyl 2,3, and the center main journal. the crank was out of a 9a motor. Nitrided the other crank so know finanally gonna start building tmrw.


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## saltlake20v (Nov 9, 2008)

how many passes on the damaged crank? estimate...
Nitriding one isn't going to help prevent cracking / bending. You might need to either figure out a way to make them stronger- aka- different material, heat treat, etc, or simply assign a lifespan after which you replace them. 
Good thing you caught it before it really let go.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (20thAEGti1009)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20thAEGti1009* »_I just recently bent a 92.8mm Eurospec crank. It was only bent 0.005 inches but it was enough to cause me to spin a rod bearing at 7600 rpm.
and you dont make hpzzzz


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (chadillac17)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadillac17* »_Ive been running th im shaft for years and finally snapped one, but think because we took too much material off when lightening it. since then changed oil to synthetic redline and stop doing 11k burnouts when its cold. saw a thread on the drysump stuff some where, but dont know if they figured out a cool kit. might have to make one my self.

Any more info on this? How long were you running the intermediate shaft before lightening it? How much material did you remove/what was the circumference or diameter of intermediate shaft after you had it lightened?


----------

