# Best off-the-shelf synthetic oil for VW?



## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

The only VW approved oil I have easy access to is Mobil-1. I'm not hung-up on using VW approved oil, but do want to use the best quality oil I can buy at a place like Autozone or Advance Auto.

They carry Valvoline Synpower, Castrol Syntec, Mobil-1 among others, but the ones that are always touted on BITOG forums and here are things like Motul, Redline, Amsoil etc. I could also pick up the Castrol SLX stuff at the dealership, but I'd have to drive a bit farther to get it...

Any thoughts? It's for a 2.0TSI engine which beats the crap out of oil.


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## shawng (Jul 28, 2007)

Castol Syntec 5W40 is VW approved and what VW puts in at the factory. Notice the shameless ad on the oil cap? As for the best, oil is like religion and everyone has a favorite that is the best.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

Rotella T 5w-40. $20/gallon all day long at Autozone.

You can see my recent UOA here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-5w40-Synthetic/page3&p=66934758#post66934758


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

RobMan8023 said:


> The only VW approved oil I have easy access to is Mobil-1. I'm not hung-up on using VW approved oil, but do want to use the best quality oil I can buy at a place like Autozone or Advance Auto.
> 
> They carry Valvoline Synpower, Castrol Syntec, Mobil-1 among others, but the ones that are always touted on BITOG forums and here are things like Motul, Redline, Amsoil etc. I could also pick up the Castrol SLX stuff at the dealership, but I'd have to drive a bit farther to get it...
> 
> Any thoughts? It's for a 2.0TSI engine which beats the crap out of oil.



For the best engine protection I'd recommend a VW 505.01 approved oil of the correct viscosity including the Castrol SLX Professional sold at the dealer. Audi mandates the 505.01 oils in their RS engines and will not accept any other oil. Without actual testing and approval by VW you really don't know if the other oils are appropriate for your engine even though it might be a great oil for other engines. 

Also don't be duped by companies that state: Recommended for ABC oil specs. *Recommended is not the same as tested and approved.*


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

Just noticed you have a new GTI, which means you're under warranty, in which case you may want to skip my recommendation.


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## falconeight (Oct 29, 2007)

shawng said:


> Castol Syntec 5W40 is VW approved and what VW puts in at the factory. Notice the shameless ad on the oil cap? As for the best, oil is like religion and everyone has a favorite that is the best.


What this guy said, and if you can find german castrol jump on it.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

shawng said:


> Castol Syntec 5W40 is VW approved and what VW puts in at the factory. Notice the shameless ad on the oil cap? As for the best, oil is like religion and everyone has a favorite that is the best.


All of what you post here is true, but if you take some time to read the various threads, along with UOAs, in this forum, you may find that relying on the factory fill is no assurance of problem-free engine performance. It is a good idea to run only approved oi while you're under warranty, but of the oils on that list the Castrol 5w-40 has consistently been shown to provide poor performance in this engine. 

I used only approved oils, had no mods, and I still had to replace a fuel pump and cam shaft out of warranty. I'm now using Rotella T 5-40, and have UOAs showing excellent wear protection. The fact that it is readily available and half the price of the oils most people gravitate to is just a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.


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## 83mk2scirocco (Nov 13, 2008)

falconeight said:


> What this guy said, and if you can find german castrol jump on it.


They have german castrol?
I use high mileage castrol 10/40 in summer and 10/30 in winter
I live in 110 degrees in the summer and 70 in the winter.
Good ol AZ.
except when the sun melt your car.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

A UOA does not tell you if one engine oil lubricates better than another or reduces engine wear. This is a fallasy that many enthusiasts do not understand. In addition the OP would need to quantify "better" to make any determination even if he had the proper oil sequence test data.

Read the nice article at the link below to better understand what a UOA can and can not tell you. *Basically a UOA is to determine if the OCI is correct and what contaminants are present in the oil.* If you truly want to know if one oil lubricates your engine better than another you need to spend a few hundred thousand dollars (per oil) and a year to properly test each oil to the appropriate VW oil test sequence. i.e. VW 502, 505.01, 504.00, 507.00, etc.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...ults&catid=40:articles-of-the-month&Itemid=71


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

Point taken. Obviously I'm not going to spend thousands of $$ to find which oil, technically, lubricates better for a given engine. So far, though, it appears that engine wear and presence of contaminants, as shown by UOAs, are significantly "better" with Rotella T in my car's engine than they were with any other oil I used, and especially Castrol Syntec 5W-40. Plus it's half the price, which is a bonus in my book.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

jmj said:


> Point taken. Obviously I'm not going to spend thousands of $$ to find which oil, technically, lubricates better for a given engine. So far, though, it appears that engine wear and presence of contaminants, as shown by UOAs, are significantly "better" with Rotella T in my car's engine than they were with any other oil I used, and especially Castrol Syntec 5W-40. Plus it's half the price, which is a bonus in my book.


The contaminants should not vary by what oil you use... Wear can not be measured via a UOA. A mechanical issue can be detected like a leaking air filter as high silicon, etc. but wear metals in a UOA do not tell you anything other than if they are in the "normal" range or unusual, which would be a mechanical issue. 

Any VW approved oil of the correct viscosity for the application will serve you well. The reason why VW actually tests and certifies oils is so that VW owners know which ones are proper for the application.


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

83mk2scirocco said:


> They have german castrol?
> I use high mileage castrol 10/40 in summer and 10/30 in winter
> I live in 110 degrees in the summer and 70 in the winter.
> Good ol AZ.
> except when the sun melt your car.


You can get it at Autozone.
0w30 and VW approved.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TechMeister said:


> Any VW approved oil of the correct viscosity for the application will serve you well. The reason why VW actually tests and certifies oils is so that VW owners know which ones are proper for the application.


I'm not convinced this is true, given my own experiences with a worn cam follower (which may or may not have had anything to do directly with the oil, I guess), but I do know that my current follower is wearing much slower than the original one did with oils on the "approved" list, and I see no other ill effects, so I'm sticking with what works for me. YMMV


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Without actually removing the valvetrain components and measuring them, you really don't know what the wear rate is. Without controlled oil/engine testing like the car makers conduct, it's all speculation. 

You have no means to know if the cam/lifter wear that you experienced was lubrication induced, metallurgical issues, operational issues, etc. Proper scientific testing is of more value than a 1000 subjective opinions. Objective, controlled scientific testing eliminates the speculation and determines reality.

Your anecdotal experience is a data point not a conclusive determination.


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## Hillbilly Rocco (Mar 15, 2009)

TechMeister said:


> Without actually removing the valvetrain components and measuring them, you really don't know what the wear rate is. Without controlled oil/engine testing like the car makers conduct, it's all speculation.
> 
> You have no means to know if the cam/lifter wear that you experienced was lubrication induced, metallurgical issues, operational issues, etc. Proper scientific testing is of more value than a 1000 subjective opinions. Objective, controlled scientific testing eliminates the speculation and determines reality.
> 
> Your anecdotal experience is a data point not a conclusive determination.


Exactly. I'm still wondering how someone can change the oil with a different brand name and viscosity and say: "ohhhhh, my engine loves this oil. It's good stuff! LMAO


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TechMeister said:


> Your anecdotal experience is a data point not a conclusive determination.



No sh*t, Sherlock; I actually alluded to that in my last post, and I've never held myself out as an automotive expert. 

Are you this obtuse in real life, or did somebody piss on your cheerios?


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Making inappropriate posts doesn't serve any useful purpose nor validate you POV and violates the forum rules so you might want to reconsider you're attitude?


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## animaniac (May 26, 2005)

With regards to the cam follower and pump unless this is common out of warranty failure on the tsi engine then one can't tell what caused the wear, if it were the oil then wouldnt other parts on the engine suffer with wear?.

The problem is vw knows how to make money and they know if the parts fail outside of the warranty your going to replace the parts yourself or let a dealer or garage do it, either way they make money, times this by thousands of golfs and then by the other vag cars which use theses parts, not only this part may have been made to fail early but other parts aswell, but it's very very very hard to prove the manufacturer has designed it like this intentionaly.

No wonder vw makes hundreds of billions.

Just look at the clogged intake valves on the tsi engines due to direct injection, the fuel no longer goes passed the inlet valves but as we all know the pcv system is still puffing oil and crap into the intake this leads to clogged intake valves thanks to the direct injection.

This leads to a richer fuel mixture due to lack of air, the car runs like crap and has to go the garage or dealer in which case they use a intake cleaner which may work, but if the oil has turned into hard carbon and obviously the head has to come off for the valves to be cleaned!

Possibly end up burning a valve in theses circumstances !

All money for vw.


The modern engines arnt as good as folk think!


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## JDWAUDI (Aug 18, 2010)

If your worried about price, put the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 in your engine. It is what the engine calls for. Walmart has good prices on 5 gallon jugs of Mobil 1 and other oils too. That's just fine. I put Shaeffer Synthetic in my S4 (4.2) last time, and I did notice smoother engine operation on cold starts at altitude (Boulder, CO). It seems to consistently work well at different temperatures, and seems to stay cleaner than other oils I have used. I will be putting Shaeffer or most likely Red Line oil in my Transmission and Differentials.

To avoid sludge in your turbocharged engine, please allow your turbo to cool off for 30 seconds or so before turning off your engine. Also change your oil more frequently than the recommended 10,000mi intervals. 

If you are doing track days or beating the piss out of your engine, just fork over the extra coin for Royal Purple. I can't verify that it is superior, but people I know that race Porsche's swear by it. They are reliable sources that have done the foot work, so I trust them.

These oil arguments are always hilarious. Frequency of the oil changes are your best bet!


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## JDWAUDI (Aug 18, 2010)

animaniac said:


> With regards to the cam follower and pump unless this is common out of warranty failure on the tsi engine then one can't tell what caused the wear, if it were the oil then wouldnt other parts on the engine suffer with wear?.
> 
> The problem is vw knows how to make money and they know if the parts fail outside of the warranty your going to replace the parts yourself or let a dealer or garage do it, either way they make money, times this by thousands of golfs and then by the other vag cars which use theses parts, not only this part may have been made to fail early but other parts aswell, but it's very very very hard to prove the manufacturer has designed it like this intentionaly.
> 
> ...


The direct injection carbon build up is a problem for sure. BG sells a kit for this specific problem now too. It comes with little wooden skewers to chip away the chunks, solvent, wire brushes, etc...I'd recommend using a Pneumatic Fluid Sucker/Evacuator to suck up the gunk while cleaning it out. 

If anyone has this problem. You can take off the Intake Manifold and clean the Intake Valves. Just rotate the engine a bit to do a few at a time. As per TSB, LOL.

If you have misfires on cold starts, this could be your problem. I had a RS4 come in with 15,000 miles on it, and you would not believe the amount of carbon on the valves!


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

animaniac said:


> With regards to the cam follower and pump unless this is common out of warranty failure on the tsi engine then one can't tell what caused the wear, if it were the oil then wouldnt other parts on the engine suffer with wear?.


I haven't heard/read any issues with the TSI engine and cam followers, probably because it uses a roller cam setup, whereas the FSI engines use a flat tappet cam follower design for the HPFP, which is more prone to wear.


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

JDWAUDI said:


> If your worried about price, put the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 in your engine. It is what the engine calls for. Walmart has good prices on 5 gallon jugs of Mobil 1 and other oils too.


fyi-
Mobil does not make 5qt jugs of 0w40.
Walmart does sell the 0w40 in qts for about $6.79 each.


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

I just switched to German made Castrol 0w-40 from autozone per this post...




chalkboarddub said:


> let me break it down when it comes to oil, i've done alot of research over the years.
> I wouldn't waste my money for synthetic for your 2.0 since it's not boosted and i doubht you run super extended drain intervals like i do.
> First off, most "synthetics" that are sold in the US are not true synthetics. A true synthetic is a group IV or group V oil, these include Polyalphaolefin (PAO) (group IV) and Ester (group V). Only a few companies who sell oil in the US sell a true synthetic. Most the oil you see on the shelf is hydrocracked group III oils. Only in the US group III based oils are considered synthetic, everywhere else it's illegal to claim so.
> 
> ...


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

VR6OOM said:


> I just switched to German made Castrol 0w-40 from autozone per this post...


Autozone doesn't carry Castrol 0w-40.
Did you mean the legendary GC 0w-30?


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## branedamag (Mar 8, 2008)

Strictly anecdotal, but at 56,000 I switched from the usual suspect Castrol to Valvoline Synpower. Engine starts more smoothly and observed mileage on highway has gone from approx 30 to approx 34 mpg. YMMV may vary, as always.


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## zucchini (Aug 30, 2009)

Does anyone use Militec 1 with the oil?


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## eliberto87 (Jun 9, 2009)

i use mobil 1 extended performance synthetic 5,000 miles interval but ive been reading up on pennzoil platinum and the best oil in the world yes i said it pennzoil ultra read thhis up http://www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra no other oil gives u up to 40% sludge removal, only certified only over the counter oil used by ferrari my best two mobil 1 extended and my new favorite pennzoil ultra


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

The Kilted Yaksman said:


> Autozone doesn't carry Castrol 0w-40.
> Did you mean the legendary GC 0w-30?


GC means German Castrol? Maybe it was 0w30...


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

eliberto87 said:


> i use mobil 1 extended performance synthetic 5,000 miles interval but ive been reading up on pennzoil platinum and the best oil in the world yes i said it pennzoil ultra read thhis up http://www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra no other oil gives u up to 40% sludge removal, only certified only over the counter oil used by ferrari my best two mobil 1 extended and my new favorite pennzoil ultra


Fwiw, I would never trust a brands claims on their own website. :beer:


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

So you're saying Enzo Ferrari never shopped for Pennzoil?


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Objective oil sequence testing is what counts when it comes to engine oils. Pick any tested and approved oil for the application and it will serve you well.


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

jmj said:


> So you're saying Enzo Ferrari never shopped for Pennzoil?


No that's not what Im saying. Just be skeptical of "claims" from an oil companies own marketing. Objective 3rd party results are one thing and so are facts.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

VR6OOM said:


> No that's not what Im saying. Just be skeptical of "claims" from an oil companies own marketing. Objective 3rd party results are one thing and so are facts.


I'm with you. Maybe Pennzoil is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I wouldn't believe it just because they said so.:beer:


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## marcohh8 (Jul 12, 2010)

everyone really does have their own belief on which is better. ive used mobil1 for about 2 years then i tried royal purple and will never look back:thumbup:


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

marcohh8 said:


> everyone really does have their own belief on which is better. ive used mobil1 for about 2 years then i tried royal purple and will never look back:thumbup:


...and why will you "never look back" ? Is that a trail of Royal Purple dripping from your engine or what? Just asking. 

In other words, *what objective basis did you use to determine if RP was better than the M1 *you had previosuly used and how exactly did you *quantify the performance difference*? Or do you just like the RP oil bottle?


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## marcohh8 (Jul 12, 2010)

TechMeister said:


> ...and why will you "never look back" ? Is that a trail of Royal Purple dripping from your engine or what? Just asking.
> 
> In other words, *what objective basis did you use to determine if RP was better than the M1 *you had previosuly used and how exactly did you *quantify the performance difference*? Or do you just like the RP oil bottle?


i like the color purple thats all i didnt notice an increase in power just saw an expensive price tag and a fancy bottle and went for it. isnt that how everyone picks oil?:screwy:


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## Matt_TDI16V (Jan 4, 2009)

Judging by a small handful of UOAs over at BITOG and also a noted lack of intake clogging on the few TSI/FSI engines running these oils, Redline 5w40 and a boutique, bio-based oil from RLI also in 5w40 are the best bets.

It seems the type of base stock in the oil can play a huge part in how badly/quickly these engines clog up. The vegetable-oil base of RLI seems to do the trick to keep things clean as does the Group V ester-based Redline.

Of course things are never cut-and-dried on this subject and the data pool I'm drawing from is very small. There is no absolute best base-stock either. Each does something better than the other, have different effects on engine seals etc. Many oil makers use a combination of different base stocks as well.

This is a hugely complex subject, one that can't be decided on "feel" or "look" of the oil or what a seeming expert has told you.

The best answer is do some reading, try a recommended oil and do your own regular used oil analyses, especially on VAG direct injection engines. They seem to be very hard on oils and some of the recommended oils seem to suffer badly from fuel dilution and other issues. Other oils are far more resistant to it, including my two suggestions above. Some oils are looking very poor in UOAs before reaching even 3000 miles.

Many cars you can get away with whatever generic 5w30 and not worry much about it. Not these engines, however.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Many people - especially those at BITOG use UOA for the incorrect purpose and read all sorts of things into a UOA that can not be derived from said test. They falsely believe a $25 UOA test which is only designed to tell if the OCI is correct... can some how provide the lubrication information that can only be obtained through the comprehensive oil test sequence employed by car makers which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per oil tested and takes months to test.

I'd take everything you read in the forums including at BITOG with a large grain of salt.

This is a worthy read on UOA:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...catid=40:past-articles-of-the-month&Itemid=78

It's ironic that the fanbois at BITOG ignore reality and reach baseless conclusions based solely on fantasy.

Thankfully VW and other respected car makers actually test and certify oils that meet the lubrication requirements of their specific engines. That is why the new vehicle warranty requires use of a properly tested and approved oil to maintain your engine warranty.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

marcohh8 said:


> i like the color purple thats all i didnt notice an increase in power just saw an expensive price tag and a fancy bottle and went for it. isnt that how everyone picks oil?:screwy:


Yup that's pretty much how most consumers make a buying decision... Now if RP could use some hot babes with few clothes on, I'm sure their oil would be *THE* best out there. :screwy:


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TechMeister said:


> Thankfully VW and other respected car makers actually test and certify oils that meet the lubrication requirements of their specific engines. That is why the new vehicle warranty requires use of a properly tested and approved oil to maintain your engine warranty.


My guess (notice I used the word "guess", which means I did not tear down my engine prior to posting this) is that their only concern is "what oil will maintain the engine in a state that costs VW the least amount of money to get through the warranty period of the car", rather than "what oil will take the engine through 5 or 6 years of ownership without eating a flat tappet cam follower and cam shaft, especially after the warranty period is up, despite the fact that the owner has maintained the engine according to our specs".

I have a hard time believing that VW spends all that money testing because of their concern for what happens to their engine after they are no longer on the hook for repairs. Said another way, I'm not convinced that their research is for anyone's benefit but theirs.

Then again, I'm admittedly a cynical bastard who had to pay out of pocket for a replacement cam shaft, fuel pump and follower that wore out without setting off VW's highly developed and sophisticated MIL system, so feel free to disregard everything I post.


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## TheBossQ (Aug 15, 2009)

zucchini said:


> Does anyone use Militec 1 with the oil?


Don't add crap to your oil. It's not necessary. Use a high quality oil and you'll be fine.



jmj said:


> Then again, I'm admittedly a cynical bastard who had to pay out of pocket for a replacement cam shaft, fuel pump and follower that wore out without setting off VW's highly developed and sophisticated MIL system, so feel free to disregard everything I post.


I am with you. However, I believe there is a balance to this. Manufacturers can't have their vehicles breaking down @ 40k, 50k, 60k miles like clockwork. Even though VW would be "off the hook" for the repairs, no one would buy VW's. They need last well into the 100k mile range with only "small" failures.

Conversely, you can't engineer a car to run 200k with 0 problems, still be profitable and expect your dealership network to be profitable.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TheBossQ said:


> Conversely, you can't engineer a car to run 200k with 0 problems, still be profitable and expect your dealership network to be profitable.



This is a fair statement, I think. I'm not sure if HPFP/cam shaft failure is considered major or not, but it would have been nice if the MIL at least lit up, since my cam follower had clearly been punched through for some time before I checked it out of curiosity. I will also state that VWoA reached an "accommodation" with me for the repair, but I'm not allowed to disclose the terms of it. Under the circumstances (relatively high mileage, but I had proof of regular oil changes with appropriate oils-in fact I have a copy of everything that has been done to the car since I bought it new), it was probably somewhat fair.


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## Matt_TDI16V (Jan 4, 2009)

TechMeister said:


> Many people - especially those at BITOG use UOA for the incorrect purpose and read all sorts of things into a UOA that can not be derived from said test. They falsely believe a $25 UOA test which is only designed to tell if the OCI is correct... can some how provide the lubrication information that can only be obtained through the comprehensive oil test sequence employed by car makers which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per oil tested and takes months to test.
> 
> I'd take everything you read in the forums including at BITOG with a large grain of salt.
> 
> ...



I disagree. UOAs are an extremely useful tool that can also give you good information on if there are excessive wear metals in your oil as well--let's ignore OCIs for the moment.

On the subject of VW's certifications, they don't honestly help that much. I've seen a number of VW PD TDIs who've only ever used 505.01 certified oils and still destroy their own cams and lifters.

Some 505.01s are better than other. Several different oils can meet the same VW specification, but don't mistake that for oils having the same or similar performance. There's also different weights available under the same certification. Some are 5w30, some 5w40. It seems the 5w40s protect better on average in the case of these specific engines. I've also noticed there's a handful of 5w40 diesel oils that appear to protect better than most 505.01 certified oils do as well.

In my book, VW's approval of an oil is next to meaningless because of this. If I were the owner of a brand new VW, I would use the best oil that I can discern from other UOAs that meets the specific VW certification (and has actually been tested and approved by VW) until the warranty was up. Once the warranty is out the door, I would switch to an oil that seems to protect better, again based on other UOAs (and my own should I ever want to shell out the dough to do so).

UOAs are an extremely useful tool and will certainly tell you if there's excessive wear metals in your oil due to the common cam/lifter wear issue a couple of their engines have. VW approved oils don't guarantee much once outside the warranty.


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## TheBossQ (Aug 15, 2009)

jmj said:


> This is a fair statement, I think. I'm not sure if HPFP/cam shaft failure is considered major or not, but it would have been nice if the MIL at least lit up, since my cam follower had clearly been punched through for some time before I checked it out of curiosity. I will also state that VWoA reached an "accommodation" with me for the repair, but I'm not allowed to disclose the terms of it. Under the circumstances (relatively high mileage, but I had proof of regular oil changes with appropriate oils-in fact I have a copy of everything that has been done to the car since I bought it new), it was probably somewhat fair.


I would look at that type of failure as moderate. In that application, I would honestly expect the pump itself to fail before I expected the follower to wear through. It's good that VW stepped up in whatever fashion they did.

Your issue is the very reason I never purchase new cars, especially cars that debut new technology. Direct injection in gas engines is becoming widespread, but VW obviously hasn't worked out the kinks. Eventually, they will and problems like this will be addressed.

My wife hates my car. Stuff breaks, I fix it, but it's never anything major and all the issues are known. It's a PITA sometimes, but it works out.

Anyway, I'm off topic for this thread ... so ...

I use Total 5w-40 for all my oil needs (both Jettas and Nissan Titan do well on it in the Arizona heat). I have used Royal Purple, have also used Castrol 5w-40 (Euro) when I've run out of Total and been in a pinch. I don't notice any differences in mileage or drive-ability when I change brands, so I stick with Total and use whatever else is quality stuff when the Total isn't stocked in my garage.

Recently pulled my 1.8t valve cover out of curiosity while I was doing the timing belt and everything was SO clean. No build-up anywhere, 125k miles. OCI is every 6-7k with the giant MANN filters, or Purolator if I've forgotten to re-order a MANN filter.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TheBossQ said:


> Your issue is the very reason I never purchase new cars, especially cars that debut new technology. Direct injection in gas engines is becoming widespread, but VW obviously hasn't worked out the kinks. Eventually, they will and problems like this will be addressed.



I'm a glutton: the car I traded in for the GTI was an 04 Touareg.

The TSI engines seem to have solved the worn cam follower problem by using a roller mechanism. Carbon buildup on the intake valves is another issue, but that seems to be inherent on DI engines.


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## gehr (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm always amazed at how much some people are so concerned with oil! Use an approved oil and you're fine! I've had 3 VWs over the last 25 years and a total of 576,000+ miles and all the engines are mint!

I guess it's a hobby for some people............like people who track commercial airline flights.......seems crazy to me......:screwy:


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## Matt_TDI16V (Jan 4, 2009)

gehr said:


> I'm always amazed at how much some people are so concerned with oil! Use an approved oil and you're fine! I've had 3 VWs over the last 25 years and a total of 576,000+ miles and all the engines are mint!
> 
> I guess it's a hobby for some people............like people who track commercial airline flights.......seems crazy to me......:screwy:


Most VWs are just fine using the approved oil. VW does have some problematic engines which can be much better served with some very specific oils. Mostly the direct injected ones (gas and diesel).

You can put almost anything you want in an old 8V and it'll be just fine. This is not the case with some of the new engines...


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

A UOA tells you what the proper OCI is not if one oil is better than another at lubricating your engine as Doug Hillary points out in his article. A UOA is not intended for nor can it determine the wear rate or lubrication requirements of the engine. To obtain this information you need to conduct the exhaustive oil sequence and durability testing that car companies conduct. A $25 UOA can not provide this information and is not designed to tell you this information. 

A UOA will tell you if you have a mechanical issue such as a leaking air filter - high silicon, fuel in the oil - bad injector, anti-freeze in the oil - leaking head gasket, etc. but it can not tell you if one oil performs better at lubricating your engine vs. another. If you have excessively high wear metals it's due to a mechanical failure. A UOA doesn't tell you what caused the mechanical failure. It can't tell you if the oil was the cause or something else was the cause. It can tell you if you should change the oil sooner or later and if there is a mechanical issue, nothing more.

When used properly a UOA is a helpful tool. When used improperly it leads to completely foolish, inaccurate conclusions which is what you typically see when people try to use it to determine if one oil lubricates their engine better than another.

The conspiracists might also take note that all major car makers now have a Certified Pre-Owned, (CPO) vehicle program that typically requires them to warranty the engine to 80-100K miles so you can be sure they aren't specifying oil that causes your engine to wear out at 50K. Why consumers think the engineers are out to harm them is beyond me. Obviosuly you don't know and have never worked with car company engineers - most of whom are car enthusiasts who like to play on the weekends... be it on the track or A-Bahn.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Rotella 5w-40 has similar additive package to Syntec 5w-40, both work well. 

Mobil 1 High-Miles is probally the best heavy synth oil that comes in a jug. The 10w-40 and 10w-30 have the thicker ACEA A3 synthetic spec and the 5w-30 has the thinner A5 spec, but still is pretty thick w/good HT/HS. 

Ironically, it is blended to an older API SL spec, that allows higher additive levels. If you don't mind changing viscs for seasons, (I do 2x or 3x a year for different cars) M1 HiMiles is great, if not best, but the regular M1 line is kind of lame excepting the 0w-40 and 5w-40.

Look over Lubrizol's Euro spec spider graphic tool....

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html

It compares all the Euro and API specs. However, when you look at the newer low-saps specs, like VW 504/507, they look great on paper but actually have issues working with the high sulphur gas in the USA. Older higher additive oils like Syntec 5w-40 and Rotella 5w-40 work better. 

There are a lot of variables to consider, but any 5w-40 generally does the job. In some cases, it's too thick for extreme cold, and kills mpg.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

A lot of people think oem spec oils are the best, but there are plenty of unspeced oils that work great, if not better...


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TechMeister said:


> Why consumers think the engineers are out to harm them is beyond me. Obviosuly you don't know and have never worked with car company engineers - most of whom are car enthusiasts who like to play on the weekends... be it on the track or A-Bahn.


I don't think the engineers are out to "hurt" me, but I do think the people who actually run the company on the management side are not out to "help" me, unless that happens to line their pockets. That probably sounds more cynical than I actually feel, but it's basically true.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Engineers don't write service manuals nor make the actual recommendations to the customer. Typically, it's a compromise between marking and accounting to offer the cheapest (least service) to the customer and maximize profits.


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## marcohh8 (Jul 12, 2010)

is that blackstone labs thing a parody on coldstone?


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

AudiSportA4-

Can you show us the *VW oil test sequence test data* results to support your claim that other oils "perform better" than the VW approved oils? I didn't think so... SOS, DD. All opinion but no facts. If you believe that you can use UOA to determine oil lubrication performance, you're already lost. *Perhaps you were not paying attention? A UOA is for determining OCI, not how well an oil lubricates the engine. You need to conduct the extensive oil test sequence that the car makers use to determine if one oil lubricates your engine better than another. A UOA can not provide this info. as Doug Hillary's article explains.*

Marketing and accounting have absolutely NOTHING to do with writing vehicle warranty engine oil requirements. The oil requirements are determined through actual oil sequence testing. The foolishness that passes for knowledge is appalling and leads to complete misrepresentation on the subject matter, which is a disservice to those who desire to properly protect their VW engine and investment.

VW is the one proving warranty coverage on my engine so I'll use the oil they require, forum WizDumb be damned. People are free to use whatever oil they choose, but please don't post technically inaccurate and illiterate information that can lead to a voided new vehicle warranty and or increased engine wear or damage because you fail to understand the technical subject matter.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TechMeister said:


> Marketing and accounting have absolutely NOTHING to do with writing vehicle warranty engine oil requirements.



I'd be interested in knowing what your qualifications are for making that statement.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

Marketing and accounting write service manuals?

That's a new one. :screwy:


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

TechMeister said:


> AudiSportA4-
> 
> Can you show us the *VW oil test sequence test data* results to support your claim that other oils "perform better" than the VW approved oils? I didn't think so... SOS, DD. All opinion but no facts. If you believe that you can use UOA to determine oil lubrication performance, you're already lost. *Perhaps you were not paying attention? A UOA is for determining OCI, not how well an oil lubricates the engine. You need to conduct the extensive oil test sequence that the car makers use to determine if one oil lubricates your engine better than another. A UOA can not provide this info. as Doug Hillary's article explains.*
> 
> ...


That's funny. I talk to Doug all the time, he just emailed me from 24hrs Nurburgring with some Opel team updates. Although we routinely disagree, I know he doesn't doubt my technical knowledge. If his position differs with mine, he states his counterpoints clearly and politely, quite unlike your retard-style bullying. You can cry your cry all day long, that doesn't change the fact that 10k is marginal service at best. I could post a ton of 5k 2.0T UOAs where there's some TBN left, but the oil's full of abrasive metallic particles. I don't take advice from people overseas anyway. We get motor oil dirt cheap and have different engine tunes and fuel quality. A completely different situation from the idealized test bench.

Oh, and btw-


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*huh?*

Why do you know better than teh mfg and designers, and the people who warranty teh stuff? 10K is not right, yet teh mfg says that's what ya do, and you know better. My last car went 316,000 miles on standard oil, VR6 whatever was in teh 55ga drums. Now Castrol Syntec in teh 2.0T, since that has teh VW qualifications, along with ones for otehrs, and that's what they use. How is other stuff not spec'd to VVW specs better? And why change oil sooner than the mfg says too? So many "experts" know so much more than teh car companies, amazing.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

BassNotes said:


> Marketing and accounting write service manuals?
> 
> That's a new one. :screwy:



Yes, that's exactly what I posted.:screwy:


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## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

CE said:


> Why do you know better than teh mfg and designers, and the people who warranty teh stuff? 10K is not right, yet teh mfg says that's what ya do, and you know better. My last car went 316,000 miles on standard oil, VR6 whatever was in teh 55ga drums. Now Castrol Syntec in teh 2.0T, since that has teh VW qualifications, along with ones for otehrs, and that's what they use. How is other stuff not spec'd to VVW specs better? And why change oil sooner than the mfg says too? So many "experts" know so much more than teh car companies, amazing.


How do you not spell "the" correctly in your entire rant? Was it some kind of joke?


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

jmj said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I posted.:screwy:


Actually, AudiSportA4 posted that gem.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

BassNotes said:


> Actually, AudiSportA4 posted that gem.



In that case never mind.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

lol, as-if VW and Audi never made a misstatement of oil change intervals. I know how VW Vortex is, and I do in fact seriously doubt the capacity of this forum to absorb and understand any info beyond list of VW502 oils and the manual ocis. 

Now, isn't there a mention in the manual of "severe service"? Generally, that's a much shorter interval. I don't know what someone expects to gain by going as far as possible on an oil change, and I KNOW I posted most of this before, but....maybe someone like CE can explain the interactions between the new VW 504 low-saps oils and the high sulphur fuels we have here in the USA in regards to TBN and TAN retention. I would really like their opinion on it. Take the intake deposit issue, that is directly related to this, but again, I defer to the experts who interpret the owner's manual so eloquently for us. Again, I know I posted this stuff already, the BioSyn data and the 5k UOAs with the abrasive metallic wear in the 100s of PPM, that can be dumped for $20 in fresh oil. Cam followers got trashed on spec oils, but people running HD oils like Rotella had no problems. I know why, does anyone else? 

I'll take the shortcut of just posting some pics of VAG engines that had 10k services and the result...


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

BassNotes said:


> Actually, AudiSportA4 posted that gem.


 Oh, yeah, hilarious. Are we doing comedy or having a technical discussion? If it's the latter, you've added nothing. 

Funny how often the OC intervals change, and that it corresponds with the inclusive service package. That would be strictly the engineers, right? I guess that were ~wrong~ with their 5k recommendation? If so, that tends to discredit any subsequent recommendations too. Is it 10k or 5k? I dunno, tell me what's to be gained at 10k? I've seen more than a few problems at 10k, and I know that consumption increases, oxydization and fuel levels do too. Friction modifiers wear out and again, pour-point takes a hit too. So, it would be kind of stupid to invite the issues involved with extending the changes, but there are plenty of stupid car owners out there. Talk to some BMW owners after their "free" 15k intervals, there are some amazingly bad results out there. 










So, you goofs can go ahead with the 10k intervals and thinking the "engineers" write the service policies. I'm sure marketing and accounting has nothing to do with it or the advent of all the "lifetime" fluids we have now. I guess I'll hear from the dummies how gear oil and ATF never shears, gets metallic wear, oxydizes or has the friction modifiers wear out. The ~manual~ says it's good for lifetime, it MUST be true, lol. 

More likely than not, plenty of members who rarely post will read my stuff and find it compelling enough to take the advice and maybe even send me a PM on it. It actually happens somewhat frequently.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Oh, yeah, hilarious. Are we doing comedy or having a technical discussion? If it's the latter, you've added nothing.


 I didn't actually mean to add anything technical to your novel idea, but I do thank you for the comedy.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

BassNotes said:


> I didn't actually mean to add anything technical to your novel idea, but I do thank you for the comedy.


 So you still have nothing? What are you even doing on this forum, really?


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Fluid intervals*

So Mobil now advertising their new version of Mobiul 1 out to 15K intervals, is also wrong.  They are just marketing their stuff to dopes too? Even CU magazine years ago, did "severe" service tests of different oils, and the conclusion wasa.....no need to change poils any more than what the mfg says to do! Unless you are just out thinking the car designers, who warranty the products. I EVER changed the gear oil in a 316,000 mile car, never had an issue with the manual trans. Oils where routinly changed between 5-7K, never an issue. Now with improved oils in synthetic formulations, 10K is teh norm. Engines burn cleaner, fuels are cleaner, synthetics don't break down like older formulas did. so undo the entire idea of less maintenance, and change teh oils more than needed. the pink coolant is super long life, change it about once every 100K miles, just because I can. This isn't your fathers anti freeze. The days of corroded components inside, and coolant breaking down have been replaced with PINK I think it's now G12 + +. Even longer life. Science, just keeps making things better, whilst arm chair "experts" keep touting nonsense. 
So you want to change fluids more than is needed, yet you don't think teh VW specs, on many, not all, brands is unimportant? Maybe teh engineers do know something, and they say don't use it, if it ain't got teh numbers, Castrol 5/40 does, yet 5/30 didn't have a 505/505/507 I think, wonder why, maybe it means something. They even mention it in teh users manual, in a crunch, what ya can use, and what not to do. But then, that's just teh users manual, written by teh mfg....what do they know. If you think marketing is setting oil change intervals, WOW! Your are delusional. That policy would certainly cripple a company, after numerous problems, and warranty fixes wouldn't it. Why do the marketing dept set oil intervals, but not say tire pressures?:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> So you still have nothing? What are you even doing on this forum, really?


 I have plenty. I'm very interested in oils and lubrication. Why else would I be here? 

I have to admit I'm also amused by your paranoia.


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*10 k oil change*

Does anyone read the service manual? The 10k oil change comes with a list of exceptions that most everyone falls into, ie, short trips, cold weather, dusty roads,heat,etc.. In those situation they recommend more frequent changes. My 06 manual also states acea a3 oil is fine, as well as the 502 oils. Do what you want, argue until you're blue in the face, don't get to wound up over it.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*oil changes, is like a religion?*

I do all highway driving, so I could maybe go even further on the oil? BUT, how long do filters keep flowing until they are clogged, then go into bypass, and offer no filter at all? The only severe service i think falls into teh exceptiuons is taxi service, but then, maybe not, since the engiens is always running, so any moisture etc gets burned off anyway, it's a short trip, with long hours? It's hours on teh engine not miles, what if teh engine idels for long periods of time? No miles still being used


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Oh, yeah, hilarious. Are we doing comedy or having a technical discussion? If it's the latter, you've added nothing.
> 
> Funny how often the OC intervals change, and that it corresponds with the inclusive service package. That would be strictly the engineers, right? I guess that were ~wrong~ with their 5k recommendation? If so, that tends to discredit any subsequent recommendations too. Is it 10k or 5k? I dunno, tell me what's to be gained at 10k? I've seen more than a few problems at 10k, and I know that consumption increases, oxydization and fuel levels do too. Friction modifiers wear out and again, pour-point takes a hit too. So, it would be kind of stupid to invite the issues involved with extending the changes, but there are plenty of stupid car owners out there. Talk to some BMW owners after their "free" 15k intervals, there are some amazingly bad results out there.
> 
> ...


 Isn't that a pic of an engine from a guy who waited 50K miles before changing their oil?


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## Matt_TDI16V (Jan 4, 2009)

piston said:


> Isn't that a pic of an engine from a guy who waited 50K miles before changing their oil?


 I've seen similar looking 1.8T engines that saw regular oil changes, just with incorrect (non-synth) oil. 

All AudiSportA4 is saying (and I agree--I've seen it many times first hand working on these cars myself) is that there are a number of VW engines out there using VW approved oils with less than favorable results. Premature cam and lifter wear, intake manifold and port buildup among other issues. 

AudiSportA4 also has a decent amount of data to draw from with used oil analyses. There are a number of "approved" oils that are degrading alarmingly quickly and also have high amounts of wear metals showing up in the analyses. How this data gets so easily dismissed around here is beyond me. 

Not all oils are created equal, even if they meet the same manufacturer specification. And I would also dare say that more people are driving under "severe service" conditions without thinking so. 

If you want an idea if an oil is doing you justice, a used oil analyses is a good way to do it. Maybe it doesn't tell you the whole story, but you can get a good idea of how well it's holding up and if there is excessive wear occurring. Otherwise, you're just guessing and attempting to shoot down someone who actually has data with your own ASSUMPTIONS.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

Matt_TDI16V said:


> there are a number of VW engines out there using VW approved oils with less than favorable results.


 Perhaps, but only the "well-known" but otherwise anonymous approved oils.  



> How this data gets so easily dismissed around here is beyond me.


 The data can't really get dismissed around here if it doesn't get posted around here.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Cut open some used filters, you're likely to find next to nothing. Newer engines run very clean compared to olden days. 

Here's some 2.0T FSI UOAs I have permission to repost....


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

I'm responding to so many threads I forget the topic. 

I have to say, the M1 High-Miles line is definately the best jug oil I can think of (for VAG engines). 

The lighter 5w-30s are fine in any brand, but they are not really thick enough for our application. I will try Edge this winter with a UOA, but I def cannot tell anyone else it's ok to use the light stuff until I have some data. It worked great in an Audi 1.8t, so I'm hopeful. 










So, the only other otc in a quart bottle worth buying is German Syntec, imo. A unique product and VW specs. No other 30 weight ever gained Porsche Approval. It has the extended drain VW 503.01 spec. Basically, this would be the "safest" oil to try 10k on. It has the specs and a good track record of UOAs. Avoid the VW 504 oils, additives are too low for cam followers and it simply does not work with our fuels and the rich North America tune for low NOx emissions. 

Again, I'll chime in and visit some specific issuses, I'm just trying to get some good info out there for people to digest and come up with some feedback and more questions.


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

Fuchs GT1 5w30 is also Porche approved for what its worth, vw 502,505 and 505.1 also. Its hard to find but is available.


AudiSportA4 said:


> I'm responding to so many threads I forget the topic.
> 
> I have to say, the M1 High-Miles line is definately the best jug oil I can think of (for VAG engines).
> 
> ...


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Afaik, Fuchs developed the methylcrylate co-olgimler PAO base oil that German Syntec uses. It is a unique chemistry and we were pretty surprised to find it imported in the USA. As far as Fuchs 5w-30 meeting spec, that's cool and must have been missed by me. Fuch's product line would be great to have in the US. Only the motorcycle oils and gear oils are available. I used their Silkolene Pro SRG 75 MTF in the Astra. It's full ester base makes this 75 perform like a 90 weight in regards to film strength, but the light viscosity means low drag and great in cold. I'll probablly go with Redline MT-90 and MTL in my trans, since I have a quart here already. Redline is one of the very few companies that also uses unique diesters and PAO base oils.


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*fuchs earl*



AudiSportA4 said:


> Afaik, Fuchs developed the methylcrylate co-olgimler PAO base oil that German Syntec uses. It is a unique chemistry and we were pretty surprised to find it imported in the USA. As far as Fuchs 5w-30 meeting spec, that's cool and must have been missed by me. Fuch's product line would be great to have in the US. Only the motorcycle oils and gear oils are available. I used their Silkolene Pro SRG 75 MTF in the Astra. It's full ester base makes this 75 perform like a 90 weight in regards to film strength, but the light viscosity means low drag and great in cold. I'll probablly go with Redline MT-90 and MTL in my trans, since I have a quart here already. Redline is one of the very few companies that also uses unique diesters and PAO base oils.


 germanfilters.com carries some fuchs oil.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

That place is full of win... 

http://www.germanfilters.com/synthetic-oil-c-3967.html 

0W-30 - BMW Longlife 01 Approved 
0W-30 - Mercedes 229.5 Approved 
0W-30 - VW 502.00 / 505.00 Approved 
5W-30 - BMW Longlife 04 Approved 
5W-30 - Mercedes 229.31 / 229.51 Approved 
5W-30 - VW 505.01 / 505.00 / 502.00 Approved 
5W-30 - VW 507.00 / 504.00 Approved 
5W-40 - BMW Longlife 98 Approved 
5W-40 - Mercedes 229.3 Approved 
5W-40 - Porsche Approved 
5W-40 - VW 502.0 / 505.00 Approved 
Bulk Oil - 208 Liter Drums


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

I noticed my Autozone sells Mobil 1 0w-40 European formula. It's VW 502 and 505 approved. I wonder if this is a better performer than the regular Mobil 1 stuff?? 

Anyone try it out, or have a UOA? 

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/lubes/pds/glxxenpvlmomobil_1_0w-40.asp


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

On BobtheOilguy, i noticed someone compared German syntec to German M1 0-40 and had better results with the M1. Can't find his UOA though.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Mobil 1 0w-40 is a fine oil, but German Syntec gets more consistent results in more different engines. I know for sure that M1 0w-40 did allow FSI cam follower failures, while HD oils like Rotella 5w-40 fared better. Side by side, I'd take German Syntec any day over the M1 0w-40. The Mobil 1 High Miles line is a different story. I'm pretty sure it will do very will considering it's additives, visc and base oil. I would take the M1 HM over M1 0w-40. 

See, part of the spec test is for cold-cranking and mpg. If these parameters are not so important to you, you can get better wear and deposit control with unspeced oils. 

This will confuse and annoy everyone, but I just put in Quaker State HP Synth 10w-30. The engine runs and revs great. More power and better sound over the RP 15w-40 that came out. I'll only be using it for a short 3 month/3k run before going to Edge 5w-30 for winter. It won't be in there long enough to thin further from fuel dillution and is perfect visc for fall. Part of the deal is too, that only sustained high-speed driving Autobahn style or climbing mountains drives up the ols temp enough to thin it enough for the extra 40 weight to be a benefit. 

Starting with Edge, I'll be doing 4 month changes, 3x a year. Edge 5w-30 (10cSt) for winter, Syntec 5w-40 (14cSt) from the dealer for summer and German Syntec (12cSt) 0w-30 for fall. fwiw, Mobil 1 HiMi comes in 3 viscs that is ideal for this service too. Thin 5w-30, thicker 10w-30 and a very thick 10w-40. 

The general rule with lubrication is to run the thinnest oil that does not produce excess wear. This may change a bit over the seasons in terms of the operating visc, such as a light 30 may be a bit thin for mid summer, requirements for cold-cranking viscs in the cold definately changes. That is 10w-40 or 5w-40 is pretty thick in extreme cold, near 0f. 40 weight is also too thick during cold short drives while the oil doesn't get fully heated. 0w-40 M1 is a special case. It was developed because the 5w-40s were and are thick in cold, but M1 0w-40 rapidly shears down to a 30 in use. It shears below German Syntec 0w-30, which does itself not shear. German Syntec is also better in cold as a 0w-30. 

Anyway, even in this picky engine, many different oils work, it's how you use them. Some gys want a single oil all year, that's entirely doable, but some of the best products are also more specific as far as visc and temp. Different strokes. 

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

To what would you attribute the increase in power and improved sound with the QS?


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Well, lighter visc means less power lost from pumping it through the engine and more flow (volume). Also, the RP 15w-40 is formulated for HD diesels, the amount of friction modifiers compared to QSS, a "PCMO" passenger car motor oil, is notably reduced. Fresh oil always feels better to because the FMs degrade after use. You'll find oils with an "Energy Conserving" "Starburst" on them. They are particularly low friction. I saw a Shell study where thinner oil produces a thicker film on the ring lands too. 

Honestly, I know a guy Dr.Hass who runs 5w-20 in his wife's new Ferrari Enzo his other new Lamborghinis and a Maybach he has, with factory support. His lab work comes back cleaner than his friends using Shell Helix Ultra 10w-60 the spec oil in the exact same cars. Florida climate. I can link you up if you want. 

I mean it when I say a lot of oils will work, you just have to use them right.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

Okay, I inferred that you meant a _noticeable _power increase. How much parasitic power loss could you have gotten from using the previous oil?


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

It is noticeable and the friction modifiers seem to make a huge difference.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

Sometimes differences are noticeable without actually being real. 

I'm skeptical that you would have more than a few tens of watts difference in parasitic loss due to different oils (assuming that you're not comparing to one that is outright unsuitable for the application).


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Matt_TDI16V said:


> AudiSportA4 also has a decent amount of data to draw from with used oil analyses. There are a number of "approved" oils that are degrading alarmingly quickly and also have high amounts of wear metals showing up in the analyses. How this data gets so easily dismissed around here is beyond me.
> 
> Not all oils are created equal, even if they meet the same manufacturer specification. And I would also dare say that more people are driving under "severe service" conditions without thinking so.
> 
> If you want an idea if an oil is doing you justice, a used oil analyses is a good way to do it. Maybe it doesn't tell you the whole story, but you can get a good idea of how well it's holding up and if there is excessive wear occurring. Otherwise, you're just guessing and attempting to shoot down someone who actually has data with your own ASSUMPTIONS.


 I agree with what is said here. The database Audi Junkie posted is part of the database I maintain. I wish I had more time to comment here but here is a related post on BITOG that provides some additional info. backing up what Matt-TDI and Audisport (Audi Junkie) are saying. Bottom like is look to the data and all available info., not just take it on authority from VW. That Widman article is interesting and shows that VW owner's manuals recommendations can be well outdated and sometimes just wrong. 



saaber1 said:


> Bottom line is you cannot simply take it on faith that the owner's manual is correct for your application. In many cases it is correct while in others it may not be. For example the gas VW/audi 2.0 DI FSI engine looks like this when using standard VW certified oils at VW OCIs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Thanks for chiming in Saaber. Guys like him have been working the FSI problem for a while and developed a good knowledgebase. I took a break from VAGs since 2006, but have kept their work in mind until now, when I need to draw upon it. 

Bassnote, I understand your skepticism. I considered the relative amount of energy required to pump slightly thicker or thinner oil around in the engine and too determined it to be a negligible amount. However, the effect is real and so is the better performance gained in lightening the pumping losses. Bear in mind a 5w-40 can be twice as thick as a 5w-30 just below freezing. 

The best measure I can point to is the combined effects of visc and FM I described when cold starting the engine. It spins MUCH easier and faster from the exact same battery input, even in these mild temps. 

Best bet is to experiment yourself. My conclusion has been that 5w-40 is a thick oil, through analysis and experience.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

So the increase in power is only on a cold start? What about after a couple minutes of driving?


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

In response to Saaber2's informative post: 

I spoke with my dealer's technicians at length regarding oil choices, filter choices, and change intervals. They were unanimous in stating that 10,000 mile intervals is too long. Moreover, they were trying to advise that VW doesn't recommend 10k changes, rather that's the interval VW is willing to float the bill. It's not rocket science - its a superficial value-add to entice customers. I say superficial, because if you were to run Syntec at those intervals you'll be spending more time and money in the service center prematurely. 

The best point the techs made to me was: Same 2.0T had 5k recommended change intervals when it wasn't free to get the oil changed . 


In response to AudiSport: 
there certainly is a noticeable difference between the factory fill and the RT6, which is known to be a thick oil. Perceived changes include: smoother pedal feel, quieter operation under load and at idle. I don't know that i noticed anything else between the two, but I will be interested to see if my exhaust tips have increased/reduced/unchanged soot in between washes.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Engineers don't write service manuals nor make the actual recommendations to the customer. Typically, it's a compromise between marking and accounting to offer the cheapest (least service) to the customer and maximize profits.





BassNotes said:


> Marketing and accounting write service manuals?
> 
> That's a new one. :screwy:





A3Tripod said:


> I spoke with my dealer's technicians at length regarding oil choices, filter choices, and change intervals. They were unanimous in stating that 10,000 mile intervals is too long. Moreover, they were trying to advise that VW doesn't recommend 10k changes, rather that's the interval VW is willing to float the bill. It's not rocket science - its a superficial value-add to entice customers. I say superficial, because if you were to run Syntec at those intervals you'll be spending more time and money in the service center prematurely.
> 
> The best point the techs made to me was: Same 2.0T had 5k recommended change intervals when it wasn't free to get the oil changed .


 .


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

At least they didn't recommend 3K intervals like so many other places that sell oil changes do.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

CE said:


> Why do you know better than teh mfg and designers, and the people who warranty teh stuff? 10K is not right, yet teh mfg says that's what ya do, and you know better. My last car went 316,000 miles on standard oil, VR6 whatever was in teh 55ga drums. And why change oil sooner than the mfg says too? So many "experts" know so much more than teh car companies, amazing.


 Thanks for adding nothing technical of your own, other than a critique of mine based on your stupid assumptions and speculation.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

BassNotes said:


> So the increase in power is only on a cold start? What about after a couple minutes of driving?


 . 

BTW, I still think the idea that accounting and mark[et]ing write service manuals, with engineers excluded from the process, is pretty silly.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

You read Tripod's post, right? 

Who said engineers are "excluded"? 

You're saying it was the engineering staff who got together and chose to modify the service schedule and inclusive services from 5k to 10k? 

I really don't care if you think accounting and marketing don't have any control over these items, or if you think it's "silly". You're here to learn and I'm here to teach, it's that simple.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> You read Tripod's post, right?


 I did. Is it relevent? 



> Who said engineers are "excluded"?


 I think it was you who said that engineers don't write service manuals, mark[et]ing and accounting do. 



> You're saying it was the engineering staff who got together and chose to modify the service schedule and inclusive services from 5k to 10k?


 No, but I'd say they must've signed off on it. Is your question connected in some way with service manuals? 



> I really don't care if you think accounting and marketing don't have any control over these items, or if you think it's "silly". You're here to learn and I'm here to teach, it's that simple.


 :laugh:


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

So, you have nothing? Big surprise. 

btw- You knew what I meant (and so did everyone else) when I said "service manuals", meaning the "service (prescribed) in the manual", but instead of politely pointing out my typo or just correcting me, you want to play word games. It says a lot about your personality and what your intent is here. (along with all the other exclusively contradictory statements) 

No, I didn't mean shop repair manuals, which is obviously engineering-oriented rather than marketing.  

If what you wanted to do was to simply point out that the general parameters of the oci is determined by engineers, why didn't you just say so? That makes perfect sense. 

Obviously, it falls into a certain range, not 100k, not 1k, but from 5-10k, with the final published figure, that is allocated under inclusive service, coming NOT from the engineering department. 

Clearly 5k is better than 10k, objectively. An owner could change every 1000 miles or every week, but the cost-benefit is not there. Taking in the available data with common sense and rationality can conclude that oh, 4k to 6k is ideal. I'm open to argument of longer or shorter, but let's keep it in the form of statements of fact and rational conclusions, not just contradictory declarations. Most people discuss by stating what their opinion ARE, not just contradicting others or belaboring details I skipped over for the sake of being short and concise. What comes next, correcting my spelling? 

Ultimately, VWs lack an oil life monitor that extends or reduces the MOMENT IN TIME when an oil change is prescribed. These systems use an algorithm based on inputs from the engine like rpms, oil temp and fuel consumption. So there is not "right" answer. I do every 4 months. Timed intervals account for short trips as well as long highway drives. It also allows me to "plan" my changes.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

Like you, I have nothing. My apologies. 

Sorry, when someone says "service manuals" I tend to interpret that as um, "service manuals." That actually is a known phrase in English. If there's another language you feel more comfortable with, please name it. 

You rip into CE for making non-technical posts, but you and he both rely quite heavily on anecdotes. Once in a while you post something somewhat technical but then avoid answering questions about the details, so much potential in your contribution goes unfulfilled. 

The OP asked for advice about the best off-the-shelf (I think he means locally available) synth oil, not for anonymous opinions about who writes service manuals or service information in maintenance manuals, or whether the manufacturer's documentation should be trusted less than the dealer's service department. 

I agree with you about the cost-benefit ratio behind an OCI. Since you brought up marketing earlier, I would also point out that shorter intervals serve the interest of the party selling oil changes (ask a barber if a weekly trim would be a good idea, and he'd probably say yes), and longer intervals are in the better interest of the party who's paying for the oil changes, whether it's VW or the owner. Even then those interests eventually diverge: VW is on the hook for the warranty, but the owner would presumably want good longevity beyond the warranty. 

Obviously shorter OCIs mean fresher oil during the life of the engine. Higher quality oil should stay good longer, though. So the question about OCIs--though not exactly germane to the OP's question--really hinges on how well the oil holds up over time and distance driven. That's complicated by not all miles (or km) being the same. Some drivers start a cold engine and right away drive like they're at the track. Their miles are going to have more hard living than those of someone who takes it easy on the cold engine. Miles put on in a long road trip won't be equivalent to the same distance done in a bunch of short drives. 

I was an early convert to synthetic oils and have really good luck with them for 20+ years, at OCIs of about 7K–8K miles. Mostly Mobil 1, but for a while I also used Castrol SynTec (which I learned later was not a true synthetic) in my old MkII and in a Subaru.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

I feel sorry for the people around you.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> I feel sorry for the people around you.


 Whom you feel sorry for is fine with me.


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*oh humm*

time to grow up boys.


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

A3Tripod said:


> The best point the techs made to me was: Same 2.0T had 5k recommended change intervals when it wasn't free to get the oil changed .


 If you look in your manual under the scheduled service section, you will find the first oil change is to occur at 5K then every 10K afterwards. I believe this goes back all the way to 2006 models.


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

BassNotes said:


> .
> 
> BTW, I still think the idea that accounting and mark[et]ing write service manuals, with engineers excluded from the process, is pretty silly.


 I've worked with engineering companies for almost 20 years and engineers never write the manual or sign off on them. It's usually the companies technical publications/marketting dept. who writes the manauls, who gather input from various resources in the company, which is not the engineers execlusively. In most cases, the engineers are not involved in the manual creation process.(Believe me, I've made a big stink about this at all the companies I've worked for.) 
Engineers have engineering work to be done and can not be expected to spend an abundant amount of time on writing or proof reading manuals and recommendations.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

I hate to further derail the thread, but I can see engineers not being directly involved with owner's manuals, though they should review the pubs for technical accuracy. 

Service manuals are usually technical documents and should the process should be done or supervised by technical people who can communicate. That includes engineers. Some companies fail to place much priority on documentation, though. You can often tell by the tech support calls they get. 

I would expect that a car manufacturer's recommendations on acceptable motor oil standards to be based on engineering data and conclusions, even if the document that relays the information to the end user is a product of a different department.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

piston said:


> If you look in your manual under the scheduled service section, you will find the first oil change is to occur at 5K then every 10K afterwards. I believe this goes back all the way to 2006 models.


 Not anymore. The initial 5k was removed when inclusive service was offered. It's a shame but service depts do not want to see customers for as long as possible. This is partly because of the other items they suddenly want checked upon arrival.


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Not anymore. The initial 5k was removed when inclusive service was offered.


 Exactly. 


To underscore my point, the service manager and tech also made it very clear that they weren't trying to coerce me to coming in every 5k. they simply encouraged me (if capable to do so) to change my oil between dealer changes. 

To get back on topic. Does this audience have any input with regard to Lucas synth 5w-30, or the Mobil 1 Extended performance synthetics?


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## turbonium89 (Aug 1, 2008)

what about lucas racing oils. i run 5-30 lucas and 10-30. i prefer the 5-30, make the engine feel lighter and more capable.

but is lucas considered in the same category as amsoil and redline? what about royal purple?


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## turbonium89 (Aug 1, 2008)

i love the lucas cause it lasts for so long and i feel performance all the time. im ashamed to say but i changed my oil after 9k miles, and to my amazement it wasnt hardly discolored from when i put it in. and there were no traces of textured debris or anything.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Lucas is held in the lowest possible regard.

Zero additives in the Oil "Stabilizer".

Unless listed all are 'Zero'

Lucas Virgin
TBN - 0.1
Visc - 615.3
FP - 435
Calcium - 3
Magnesium - 1
Phosphorus - 4
Zinc - 2

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1382543&page=all


Mobil 1 HM is the best bet in jug heavy 30 or 40 weight, along with Rotella and German Syntec. 

Outside of these or Euro 5w-40s....all bets are off.

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2020522&page=all

Mobil 1 10w-30 HM


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

turbonium89 said:


> i love the lucas cause it lasts for so long and i feel performance all the time. im ashamed to say but i changed my oil after 9k miles, and to my amazement it wasnt hardly discolored from when i put it in. and there were no traces of textured debris or anything.


I wonder if it's lack of color is indicative of a lack of cleansers to prevent/remove deposits? Black oil isn't necessarily a bad thing, it when it feels gritty that you may have cause for concern. I'm speculating completely - but do we have a solid explanation otherwise, as to why oil turns black when used?

AudiSport
I understand all bets are off w/regard to the other M1 oils...but for the sake of data and a view of the bigger M1 picture, it would be nice to have some UOAs of their newer oils to support the overall position. can you get on that?! LOL
In all seriousness, I'll look around to see if UOAs already exist for the other M1 stuff.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Total*

Total oil also is recommended VW spec'd Why anyone would change the oil more than teh mfg says to, is just plain goofy. My last Jetta VR-6 using conventional oil changed every 5-7K miles was replaced after 316,000 miles, and it wasn't due to any oil related failure issues. And that was 0-30 from teh big drums at teh dealer Penzoil, works great lasts a long time. All the experts here, basically are clueless, and are making stuff up. My 88 Jetta had free service it was changed ever 7500 the first 3 free back then too. 7500 on conventional oil!!! So 10K on syn is fully reasonable, and now that Mobil one is saying it's possible out to 15K, but what do they know, and why mfgs endorse this, what do they know, forum posters know more, that's why they ain't working on making the cars. Tool


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Duh, a TSI isn't a VR6 or old Jetta.  

You clearly are not coming from a technical background.


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

CE said:


> Total oil also is recommended VW spec'd Why anyone would change the oil more than teh mfg says to, is just plain goofy. My last Jetta VR-6 using conventional oil changed every 5-7K miles was replaced after 316,000 miles, and it wasn't due to any oil related failure issues. And that was 0-30 from teh big drums at teh dealer Penzoil, works great lasts a long time. All the experts here, basically are clueless, and are making stuff up. My 88 Jetta had free service it was changed ever 7500 the first 3 free back then too. 7500 on conventional oil!!! So 10K on syn is fully reasonable, and now that Mobil one is saying it's possible out to 15K, but what do they know, and why mfgs endorse this, what do they know, forum posters know more, that's why they ain't working on making the cars. Tool


This adds no value.

If you've read any of this thread, or similar ones in this forum, you'd see that people like Techmeister and Audisport are advocating that brand snobbery and VW spec isn't the whole story. It's my impression that even some dino oils have been promoted so long as OCIs are reasonable.


The point of this thread, as initiated by the Op, was to try to discover best off the shelf oils. What is considered best, is largely dependent on lots of variables...which some ppl here are trying to flesh out.

Thanks for comparing a VR6 to a 2.0T direct injected motor, and their effects on oil life.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

A3Tripod said:


> I wonder if it's lack of color is indicative of a lack of cleansers to prevent/remove deposits? Black oil isn't necessarily a bad thing, it when it feels gritty that you may have cause for concern. I'm speculating completely - but do we have a solid explanation otherwise, as to why oil turns black when used?
> 
> AudiSport
> I understand all bets are off w/regard to the other M1 oils...but for the sake of data and a view of the bigger M1 picture, it would be nice to have some UOAs of their newer oils to support the overall position. can you get on that?! LOL
> In all seriousness, I'll look around to see if UOAs already exist for the other M1 stuff.


Just looking at the virgin additive levels and viscosity tells a lot about the capabilities of the oil. Boron in particular signals the newest and best additive package. Overbase calcium in 3000mg/kg levels eek is far in excess of what's expected in the best of formulations. No oils I can think of match it in these regards. Mobil's spec sheet show good physical properties like HT/HS, pour-point, VI and appropriate +100c viscosity. VW 502 (ACEA A3) calls for HT/HS > or = 3.5cP. Review the Product Data Sheet and you can see why I am also drawn to the 5w-30 HM...

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.asp


The UOAs on it are all "stellar", but none on TSI or FSI yet that I have seen. Maybe I could search some since you asked, but I can easily call this the best "otc" oil for TSI, along with German Syntec. I'll go out on a limb on that one. Thinner 30 weights include Edge and Ultra, both of which are flagship quality products, but are too thin for me to recommend in this engine until tested, with the POSSIBLE exception of Arctic duty.


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## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

BassNotes said:


> The OP asked for advice about the best off-the-shelf (I think he means locally available) synth oil, not for anonymous opinions about who writes service manuals or service information in maintenance manuals, or whether the manufacturer's documentation should be trusted less than the dealer's service department.


Wow, this thread has come a long way, hasn't it?

This quote above is exactly what I wanted this discussion to be about. Service intervals are neither here nor there, and personally don't really apply to me because I've chosen a 5k mile oil change interval for my car regardless of what the manual says (daily short trips to/from the commuter train station).

So far, after reading through this thread it seems like the Rotella is a pretty good choice for me: widespread local availability, low cost, great additive package, and excellent UOAs. I might just go ahead and use that for my "in-between" oil changes and let the dealer do the 10k intervals.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

Yes it does, since it shows if you do what teh mfg says, things function correctly. 316,000 miles no oil related issues ever. Just because teh 2.0T is turbo, that's synthetic, whoopie, ya still do what the maker says, not re do what they say is required, thinking you know better, I guess that's why they sell em and YOU don't? Arm chair engineers are always funny.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Part of what makes Rotella a good "inbetween" oil is the similar additive pack. That is, if VW ever wanted to call you out on it (I don't know why they would) it'd be basically impossible to say conclusively that a non-VW oil was used. That being said, I do prefer changing viscs for seasons, and lighter oils are more ideal for the short tripping the OP describes. It is however a very fine line to get a product thicker than plain 30 weight (10cSt), but thinner than 5w-40s (14cSt). That basically leaves German Syntec 0w-30, M1 0w-40 and M1 5w-30 HiMi, and a few Euro 30s. If you are really doing short trips in winter, you could try a super-premium 5w-30 like Ultra or Edge and pull a UOA (or wait for mine). Chances are it'll come out fine, with the best mpg and flow possible. I'm doing it w/APR flash...and UOA.


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

@CE: Your ignorance somewhat amazed me and I'm frustrated that you are spouting misinformation so blindly that you will cause damage to people's motors. The 2.0T is a direct injected and turbocharged engine with a flat tappet cam design. Your VR6 didn't have a cam follower, or the fuel dilution we get with the 2.0T - let alone a turbocharger that is lubricated and cooled by engine oil.

Furthermore, in the US we have much more sulfur in our fuel leading to a quick drop in TBN due to fuel dilution. Running 10k oil changes is PROVEN to cause premature cam follower wear in American cars due to the lower quality fuel and oil offered here in the good ol' USA. 

The issue with the 2.0T (FSI) engine is this cam follower wear - and the best way to prevent it is run an oil heavy on additives for under 5k miles. 

Cam followers:

38k










Compared to 70k with 5k OCI










79k - completely worn through. This is typical on the 2.0T and requires replacement of the Cam and HPFP as well. It's over $1000 to replace. Your VR6 would never have a problem like this - so you CAN NOT compare a VR6 to the 2.0T











Those were just a few examples - but there are literally hundreds of cases of cam followers wearing out BEFORE 50k miles *DUE DIRECTLY TO OCI*

Don't take my word for it - do some research yourself. Search "cam follower" on any VW/Audi webpage and see how long people can go. I will send you $20 via paypal if you can find me proof of someone going 100k miles with 10k OCI on Castrol 5w-40 or any Group III oil.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Thanks.

For those concerned with cam followers, (FSI engines) HD "diesel-rated" (or dual-rated) oils contain levels of the one additive KNOWN to combat the high loads in the flat-tappet design, that is zink or ZDDP. 900-1000ppm is essentially the minimum for this protection. I grabbed a bunch of Valvoline Racing Synth (1200ppm) on rebate from AutoZone a few months ago when I was still worried about this being an issue in my TSI. Since then I'm not so worried about it for myself, but it is something to consider for FSI lubrication. Other new additives are supposed to provide the EP protection where zink is reduced, but many people are not convinced. High boron should be considered comparable to zink and is now the high-tech additive of choice. Z and Ph may poison cat converters, that's why it's been lowered. 

The other oils that provide decent extreme pressure "EP" additive levels are Rotella, maybe Mobil 1 5w-40 TDT, Mobil 1 High-Miles, Syntec 5w-40. iirc Syntec 5w-50 carries a label stating it's formulated with exra zink. SynPower 20w-50 is worth a shot in the right climate. Mobil 1 15w-50 is worth a shot if you like it for some reason. Heavily modded always requires a thicker oil, SynPower 20w-50 would be my 1st choice. Pennzoil Platinum 15w-50 used to be available, I saw it at a PepBoys. The M1 15w-50 should be functional in that regard, but is not one I normally rush to recommend. I believe Mobil 10w-40 HiMi can do the same job as the 15w-50 but better.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

CE said:


> Yes it does, since it shows if you do what teh mfg says, things function correctly.


That's clearly not the case with the FSI engines and OEM oil recommendations. I have documented proof that I used OEM spec oil at OEM spec intervals and I still had to replace a fuel pump and cam shaft at 80K miles because the cam follower punched through, similar to the pictures above. 

You can accuse me of being an armchair engineer if you like, but you clearly do not know what you're talking about.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Some one who really wants the best product that can be had should consider the Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40.
PZ has free shipping because of the lack of availability at the retail level. (first 50 orders) I got one today.

https://www.buypennzoilultra.com/index.cfm


http://www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra

The bottle has VW 502 and the long-life spec VW 503.01, although the PDS hasn't been updated to show it yet. 

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html

It may be the very best product on the market.

This is the 5w-30...


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

Also, DBC las Lubro Moly and a filter deal with free shipping. A true German synthetic.


However, I got my e-mail from your mom....


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Oh...let's keep that to ourselves.


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## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Some one who really wants the best product that can be had should consider the Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40.
> PZ has free shipping because of the lack of availability at the retail level. (first 50 orders) I got one today.
> 
> https://www.buypennzoilultra.com/index.cfm
> ...


How does it compare to the Rotella?


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## Szy_szka (Aug 26, 2010)

And what about Valvoline SynPower 5W-40?


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

I REALLY like the Valvoline synpower. It meets spec, and has run very well in my 2.5 Jetta. I sent my last change (MST 5w-40) to be analyzed and I'm waiting on it to get back. It was my 4th run of Valvoline and I swear by the stuff. I'm mixing it up right now - but I imagine I'll be back to Valvoline. I get it on Amazon with free shipping. IMO Valvoline is underrated. Some Valvoline UOAs show that it doesn't have as high a starting TBN etc, but there is something going on there that analysis can't completely show. 

Plus, the Porsche shop by me only runs Valvoline in all their customer's cars. Real nice guys, and they have had amazing results over the years on this oil

I'll post up my UOA when it comes back.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Synpower is interesting, Valvoline uses organic additives that makes the VOA lab work look like it's a weak formula, but it is very in fact good. NOWACK volatility is about the lowest of any oil. iirc, JAG did some home volatility tests and deposit check and SynPower looked the best. Good base oil and minimal metallic additives.










It's kind of hard to find on the shelf in 5w-40, but many of the chain stores can order it, making it a killer deal when they have a special on Valvoline. I have a bunch of the Valvoline Racing Synth. It comes in 10w-30 and 20w-50 which I intend to mix.

*** BTW*** 

SynPower 5w-30 was incorrectly listed on many VW 502 lists. It mistakenly refers to the thicker Euro 5w-30 MST blend. I caught this error and confirmed it with a Valvoline Tech a few years ago.


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

Boy that Pennzoil Ultra is tough to find. Supposedly Autozone sells it, but each store I've called says they don't carry it and can't order it from their distributor. I found n online e-tailer that sells it by the case for $44 + s/h. Comes to about $9.50/qt after shipping to my Zip.

With a 5k OCI, I see no need to use anything other than the Rotella or the M1 HM. Bang for the buck is a no brainer at half the cost of the "best" oils that really only shine at longer OCIs as far as I can tell. That said, I wouldn't turn away from the beset stuff if it was on sale or rebate.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Agreed. With very few exceptions, inc the TSI, most any car can run on any oil. My goal is merely to optimize what's available for the cars I run it in. Switching viscs for seasons is an obvious strategy and from there all you have to do is apply the appropriate change interval and you are good. 

I usually say to decide first how many times a year you WANT to change oil and then pick a quality that lets you go the approx miles you anticipate in that time. I hate counting down miles and deciding exactly how many to go. Timed intervals lets me change for seasons and at a convenient date. Also, I don't want to change in the middle of winter, so my winter change goes in late December, to get me through the coldest part of the year. Fresh oil for the cold is ideal too, as the cold cranking ability degrades quickly.

Brands themselves are unimportant, as most are directly comparable in most grades. Then you have specialized products that are unique, Maxlife, German Syntec, Mobil 1 0w-40 and HiMi, etc. 

A good for-instance is Dr.Hass, who runs his new Ferraris, Lamborghinis and even a Maybach on $2 dino Motorcraft 5w-20 with factory support and lab work to back it up. He has his reasons, that I won't get into here. For the same reasons, I'm willing to try thin Edge 5w-30, which is actually just a whisper from a 20 weight. 

Back to Pennzoil Ultra....$50 shipped is decent for a case of super-premium oil. The specs alone place it at the top of the heap. Pennzoil Platinum has the best track record of any thin 30 weight, and the Ultra is premium beyond that. I guess I have to disclose that I got a free case of Ultra 5w-40 after a few of us enquired about availability from Pennzoil. They put a direct link on the website and sent out free cases for guys who showed interest and had to wait for it to come to market. When you look at the price of 5q jugs of Ultra 5w/10w-30 at WalMart, using the thinner oils when you can is quite attractive an option. There are benefits from the thin oil, like mpg and HP as well as the obvious cold flow issue. My opinion is that 5w-40 is speced partly because of the driving conditions of heating the oil down from sustained high speed in Europe, which we generally only do driving up mountains in the USA. Also, with 10k intervals, the oil gets thinned from fuel build-up, which is not an issue at 5k, so you CAN start with a thinner product. 

In jug form, M1 High Miles definately has our needs covered with the thicker 30s and the 10w-40, but you need to consider the climate conditions to optimize your choice of which visc to use. In the thinner 30s, Edge and Ultra are the way to go. As far as Rotella, it's great for all-seasons duty. It minimizes wear and deposits and is a great deal, easy to find too. It's exactly on a par with dealer Syntec 5w-40, but it may not produce the best mpg and power since it doesn't have much friction modifiers. It's rated for gas and diesel, but is made with specific detergents for diesel engines, which limits the other additive levels. Anyone running it will be treating their engine very well, but cold flow is limited, esp below 0f. Other oils are optimized for passenger cars, I don't know how else to say it except in the technical form of detergentcy vs lubricity.


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

Hrmm.. Hows the Conoco/Kendall GT-1 5w-40 do? It's a full synth that meets 505 and 502. All I can find UOAs on is their synth blend.

Virgin it reads ok, though they don't list everything:

GT-1® Full Synthetic Motor Oil
Typical Properties
SAE Grade 5W-40
Specific Gravity @ 60°F 0.851
Density, lbs/gal @ 60°F 7.09
Color, ASTM D1500 2.0
Flash Point (COC), °C (°F) 233 (451)
Pour Point, °C (°F) -42 (-44)
Viscosity, Kinematic
cSt @ 40°C 84.3
cSt @ 100°C 13.9
Viscosity Index 170
Cold Cranking Viscosity, cP @ -30°C 5,950
High-Temp/High-Shear Viscosity, cP @ 150°C 3.7
Sulfated Ash, ASTM D874, wt % 0.95
Total Base Number (TBN), ASTM D2896 9.2
Phosphorus, wt % 0.095
Zinc, wt % 0.104


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Everything looks good with the GT1, good cold numbers reflected in a large viscosity index, typical of Conoco products. Seems hard to find though. PepBoys carries most of the Kendall line (Conoco- Motorcraft, Trop Arctic, Proline) Conoco uses their new liquid titanium additive in their basic dino oils, and it is no joke...

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/titanium/


SynPower...

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2026699&gonew=1#UNREAD


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## ssmitty85 (Jul 19, 2010)

So running say Pennzoil ultra 5-30 in winter should be just fine in a 1.8t, im coming up on my first oil change, and havin a hard time finding 5w40, and deciding what to go with.??


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Ultra? Sure. Unless you have heavy mods, no problem. Platinum 5w-30 did well in the 1.8t UOA I posted at 6000+ miles. If your climate is cold, all the better, even though that UOA was from summer. PP 5w-30 is actually thinner than Mobil 1 0w-30 at any temp.


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## rodhotter (Dec 24, 2003)

*SKIP THE BP AKA CASTROL products*

after their careless spill + poor cleanup using outdated dispursants "owned by bp affiliates" dispursants only put oil out of sight,to put it on the oceans lower depths!!!! amsoil is very easy to get to your front porch, and a preferred customers price is about $7 a qt + ship if needed and $20 yearly membership, as long as it meets the required specs any oil will not void the warranty, if any dealer states that ask for it in writing and report them to amsoil thats ILLEGAL ask HARLEY!! also many SYNTHETICS use group III dino oil, allowed by castrol's lawsuit, mobil reformulated their synthetics after the law change, this is why oil co's are so secreative about some information on their products


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## ssmitty85 (Jul 19, 2010)

"Ultra? Sure. Unless you have heavy mods, no problem. Platinum 5w-30 did well in the 1.8t UOA I posted at 6000+ miles. If your climate is cold, all the better, even though that UOA was from summer. PP 5w-30 is actually thinner than Mobil 1 0w-30 at any temp."


Well, im chipped, turbo-back, intake, front mount. If i cant find 5-40 easily available, what is the next best weight to use for winter months.??


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

For the sake of consistency, I'll concede that thin 30 weights might not cut it for you with mods that will obviously drive up oil temps (drive visc down). That leaves a few options besides 5w-40, but you actually should be able to get 5w-40, either Shell Rotella Synth or Syntec 5w-40 from AutoZone. PepBoys even has a good selection of oils, I don't want to send you on a goose chase for any specific one. afaik, most WalMarts carry Rotella 5w-40, and the Mobil 1 line. 

Without knowing your specific climate, the M1 you could use would be in order of thicker in cold to thinner would be Mobil 1 5w-40 "TDT", Mobil 1 10w-30 HIGH MILES (an excellent choice above 0f) or if you see colder temps the M1 5w-30 HiMi is a thick 30, within a hair of meeting the high-temp/high-shear rating of VW502 (A3) of 3.5cP. 

German Syntec 0w-30 and Mobil 1 0w-40 meet the HT/HS and VW502 and are intended for cold. 

So, if you have modest temps, M1 TDT and 10w-30 HM

Colder temps the M1 5w-30 HM, German Syntec 0w-30 or M1 0w-40.

All of these oils I would prefer over Syntec or Rotella 5w-40 except mid summer.

I hope this helps, if you want anything clarified or have an extreme climate, let me know.

btw- you could always drop a fiddy for a brick of Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 shipped to your door. It carries VW 502 and 503.01, their long-life spec. 

https://www.buypennzoilultra.com/index.cfm


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## ssmitty85 (Jul 19, 2010)

AudiSportA4 said:


> For the sake of consistency, I'll concede that thin 30 weights might not cut it for you with mods that will obviously drive up oil temps (drive visc down). That leaves a few options besides 5w-40, but you actually should be able to get 5w-40, either Shell Rotella Synth or Syntec 5w-40 from AutoZone. PepBoys even has a good selection of oils, I don't want to send you on a goose chase for any specific one. afaik, most WalMarts carry Rotella 5w-40, and the Mobil 1 line.
> 
> Without knowing your specific climate, the M1 you could use would be in order of thicker in cold to thinner would be Mobil 1 5w-40 "TDT", Mobil 1 10w-30 HIGH MILES (an excellent choice above 0f) or if you see colder temps the M1 5w-30 HiMi is a thick 30, within a hair of meeting the high-temp/high-shear rating of VW502 (A3) of 3.5cP.
> 
> ...



Im in So Oregon, temps dont go much below 30 degrees in the winter, with high in the 40s-50s


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

To be honest, that climate narly qualifies as winter. With the mods, the lightest I'd go would be the thicker 30s, with Mobil 1 10w-30 HiMi being very attractive, especially considering the price. 

Two other factors would be if your tune and driving cycle dumps much fuel into the oil. The only way to determine would be a UOA. That being said, the longer you run the oil, the more fuel dilluted it could become, so if you want to go past 5000 miles, you may want to start with a thicker oil in that case. The M1 10w-40 HiMi is an alternative for summer if you aren't trying to maximize mpg and your typical trips are longer than 10 miles. Either of these oils should combat any consumption issues. 

So, no use for the 0w oils in your climate nor their long-life VW 503.01 spec if you are just going to drain about 5k anyway. German Syntec does go on sale at PepBoys and AutoZone, so that is still an option compared to the jug Mobil 1 at WalMart 5q/$23.


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

FWIW, I just changed the oil in my 07 Quest and hit up my Autozone for some Pennzoil. It appears Autozone has a sale on all Castrol Synthetics. Picked up 5 quarts of 0w-30 GC for $6.79ea. Mobil is offering a free filter w/5 quarts.

Anyway just thought i'd share the deal.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

http://www.castroledgeusa.com/


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

It's amazing how people will accept ad hype as gospel without any oil sequence testing data to support the claims. People pour pain into their engines everyday and are thrilled to do it.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

You wouldn't know a fact if it hit you in the head.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

Martha Stewart 10W-30, lol


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

You are talking bout FSI, what about 2.0T TSI in the 2010 GTI? I've never had an engine oil related failure EVER! I've driven over 1 million miles over the years, mostly highway driving. If the oil meets specs, it's good to go. SAE and VW specs, use it. All this pondering about this and that, when do you have time to drive the damn things? Change the oil per mfg specs, engines last forever. My cars are only broken in after 100K miles! . If engines where so touchy as to what specific oils they could use the car companies would be going broke on warranty claims etc. and massive recalls. If the oil is the correct spec, viscosity, meets mfg standards, then it's the oil to use. If some web genius insists only one particular oil is the one to use, why does the mfg's have several or a dozen that they say can be used? Quick change oil places tell you to change teh oil every 3K, they are high! They see oil all day long, are those kids there teh "experts", hardly. My Audi 2.7T has changes at 8K the new TSI is 10K, uses same oil, and no problems ever. Maybe the mfg knows the product the best? Castrol Syntec is what teh dealer puts in, why do you come up with the weird stuff that GERMAN Castrol is the only stuff to use, when the US Castrol meets VW specs, and SAE specs etc. As does total and several others, you know, but they don't?


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

To answer that exactly... mfgs know their products, but do they know all the lube products on the market on another continent? Do you think VW engineers know about RLI? Do you think they are going to recall all the existing published lists in favour of RLI because it's BEST? Do you understand the simple concept that the oil will not carry VW 502 unless it's submitted for testing and paid $.5m? Do you understand there is a generic spec, ACEA A3 that VW is based on? All you have ot do is read and look at Lubrizol's spec comparator, compare A3 and VW 502 and you may start to get a clue.

There are so many example of oem oils and recommendations FAILING to preform it's silly. It reflects on your own knowledge base that you are unaware of them, even AFTER they were enumerated for you.

German Syntec? Did you even read my posts? It was FACTORY FILL! 

You need to start reading more and posting less.


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## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

CE said:


> (lengthy rambling rant)


Who are you talking to? Have you even read through this thread? A large part of the discussion has been about the additives used, and deposit prevention etc. Nobody said anything about engine failure.

We get it. You believe that the best off-the-shelf oil can be found on VW's list. Others don't. There's no reason to get all worked up over it. You do what you want to your car, and I'll do what I want to mine. As of right now, the only readily available (to me) oils that are on VWs list are Castrol and Mobil 1. I'm pleased to see that other brands with better additive packages can be found. Rotella is just one of them.

Further, Audi Junkie has highly recommended Pennzoil Ultra, which is on the list. That tells me he doesn't care whether it's on the list or not, just what the best oil is, period.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

CE said:


> You are talking bout FSI, what about 2.0T TSI in the 2010 GTI?


The FSI has a flat tappet cam follower on the fuel pump system, the TSI does not (they switched to a roller cam design), hence the need for higher zinc additives in the FSI engine oils.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

I never really said it strait-out, but I assumed people realize that a 5w-30 is the same as a 5w-40 at just a few degrees cooler. 5w-40 is overly thick to account for excessive heating (thinning) during extreme conditions (130 mph for hours) so a 5w-30 can do the same job if it is not overheated. About +/- 10 degrees can thin or thicken a full grade. 

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

See, at +90c the 5w-30 is the same as 5w-40 at +100c.









At +110c it's the same as 5w-40 at +120c, and yes, 8-9cSt is the thinnest you want to run the oil.

That is, oil visc is measured at +100c for reference, and that falls into an SAE grade range. +100c is "operating temp" in a hot engine and 40 weight is 14cSt visc. If heated it thins down to 10-12cSt, no problem. Well, 30 weight oils is 10-12cSt at that visc, but most drivers don't see over +100c, so at 80-90c that oil is not 10-12cSt, but more like 14cSt or more....the same as a 40 weight. The main benefit is during start and warm-up (10 miles or more) 5w-30 is a lot thinner, putting less parasitic load on the engine and lubing it BETTER. So, the 5w-30 Ultra you get at WalMart for $5/q is the same as the 5w-40 Ultra you can't find and is $8q. It just works better and is cheaper.

I don't even want to get into the whole flow vs pressure thing. Even mechanics don't get it that pressure is the opposite of flow. They are happy to have high pressure, but don't realize that's because the flow is restricted by thick oil. Flow (volume) is what cools and lubes. 

I'll take the example of Dr.Hass and his fleet of new supercars he runs 5w-20 in. This one specs 10w-60. He's no idiot.

Shell is factory 10w-60, GC is German Syntec 0w-30 and RLI is 0w-20.

Ferrari Enzo:

_____________Shell..GC...RLI
Iron___________ 32...11...7
Chromium ______


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

Deposits, and poor lubrication will in fact cause engine failure, ie: poor performance, lousy mpg or a complete failure of a component, due to lack of proper lube. I didn't even replace the cam chain or guides, in 316K miles on my last VW. the oil was whatever comes in 55gal drums at the dealer. changed between 5-7K miles. Worrying about the slightest additive differences thinking it will affect how your engine will operate in use that it gets as a typical car here, is bizarre. And if you change it as the mfg says, it doesn't matter. After over 1 million miles of driving experience, I can claim to be an "expert" on what it takes to keep the cars running. I'd put money on it, your car will function no different, with a life on Pennzoil, Castrol or Mobil or any other several VW spec'd oils. I have some total ready to use on my Audi, cus' it was on sale, meets spec, and is free shipping. Engine will love it! After it had Castrol previously. Price, spec, and availability makes what oil goes in. Whigging out on Zinc content or remains after 5K miles in teh oil, is WEIRD!


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

I've stopped reading your posts. It's spelled THE! You can't mask poor information with bad grammar and spelling.

The data disagrees with you, CE.

/thread


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Lamborghini Murcielago RLI 0w-20

Iron___________ 7
Chromium _____ 1
Nickel ________ 1
Aluminum _____ 1
lead __________ 4
Copper _______ 56
Tin ___________ 0
Silver _________ 0
Titanium ______ 0
Silicon ________ 5
Boron ________ 16
Sodium _______ 14
Potassium _____ 0
Molybdenum __ 123
Phosphorus ___ 911
Zinc _________ 920
Calcium _____ 1871
Barium _______ 3
Magnesium ____ 12
Antimony _____ 139
Vanadium _____ 0
Fuel %Vol _____ 1.16
Wtr %vol _____ 882 KF
Vis CS 40C ___ 39.6
Vis CS 100C __ 7.9
SAE Grade ____ 20
Gly test ______ Neg
TBN _________ 6.4
TAN ________ 1.48
Flash ________ 335
Oxid ________ 156
Nit __________ 9
Soot _________ 0
VisIndex _____ 177
Sulfate by product _117

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640261&page=all


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Redline, no specs, great results...


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## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

CE said:


> Worrying about the slightest additive differences thinking it will affect how your engine will operate in use that it gets as a typical car here, is bizarre. ...
> Whigging out on Zinc content or remains after 5K miles in teh oil, is WEIRD!


You know what's even weirder? Whigging out on people who "whig out" on zinc content as if it's a personal affront to your person.

That said, all I see here over the last few pages is a perfectly harmless discussion about what additives/oils/viscosities are best for our engines. There is only one poster in here whigging out at this point, and I don't think I need to mention any names...


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*5w-30 vs 5w-40*

If I'm not mistaken our BPY's have an oil to water oil cooler as do other vw engines. I've never seen any difference in the operating temp of my VW's summer or winter. That said once the engine is warmed up there should be little difference in oil temp season to season. I think we are makeing this way to complicated. Buy good oil and change it regularly.

As for this flat tappet stuff, they've been around 100 years or so. My 1.8t Passat has 20 of em and its oil recommendations are the same as my 2.0t. It's a poor choice for the hpfp, more because the cam actuates it 3 time more often than a valve.

Just my thoughts.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> You wouldn't know a fact if it hit you in the head.


It might be the greatest oil since sliced bread but I can't assign great credibility to a marketing chart that uses weasel terms like "Well-known."


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> To answer that exactly... mfgs know their products, but do they know all the lube products on the market on another continent? Do you think VW engineers know about RLI?


I can't see why they wouldn't.



> Do you think they are going to recall all the existing published lists in favour of RLI because it's BEST?


No need to recall them; just update and label them with a new version number and date.



> Do you understand the simple concept that the oil will not carry VW 502 unless it's submitted for testing


That makes sense. I wouldn't want VW to certify an oil on promises and not testing.



> and paid $.5m?


You have inside information?


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Pretty funny to call RI_RS4's data "marketing". The term was used to describe ALL the VW 502 oil data he had combined into one study. Another lame rush to a conclusion w/o any facts. 

This guy actually detected an issue with oem spec oils in his DI RS4 and worked with a company doing cutting-edge work with bio syn oils to develop HIS OWN spec oil that you or I could now purchase at a pretty good price. 

The irony is huge. 


http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/Bio-Synthetic HD SHP SAE 5W40 Motor Oil.pdf


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

skier45 said:


> If I'm not mistaken our BPY's have an oil to water oil cooler as do other vw engines. I've never seen any difference in the operating temp of my VW's summer or winter. That said once the engine is warmed up there should be little difference in oil temp season to season. I think we are makeing this way to complicated. Buy good oil and change it regularly.
> 
> Just my thoughts.



Yes, oil temps are better regulated now a days, but water temp is quite independent.


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*oil temp*

vws have water to oil coolers, their coolant source is the engines coolant. 87f or 190f are the same summer or winter. with a vag scan tool you can get all the info on water inlet and outlet plus oil temp. unless you're beating the daylight out your car, driving130 mph or live on the north pole your oil temp is pretty constant. i haven't logged the temps but i have checked.


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## Matt_TDI16V (Jan 4, 2009)

CE said:


> You are talking bout FSI, what about 2.0T TSI in the 2010 GTI? I've never had an engine oil related failure EVER! I've driven over 1 million miles over the years, mostly highway driving. If the oil meets specs, it's good to go. SAE and VW specs, use it. All this pondering about this and that, when do you have time to drive the damn things? Change the oil per mfg specs, engines last forever. My cars are only broken in after 100K miles! . If engines where so touchy as to what specific oils they could use the car companies would be going broke on warranty claims etc. and massive recalls. If the oil is the correct spec, viscosity, meets mfg standards, then it's the oil to use. If some web genius insists only one particular oil is the one to use, why does the mfg's have several or a dozen that they say can be used? Quick change oil places tell you to change teh oil every 3K, they are high! They see oil all day long, are those kids there teh "experts", hardly. My Audi 2.7T has changes at 8K the new TSI is 10K, uses same oil, and no problems ever. Maybe the mfg knows the product the best? Castrol Syntec is what teh dealer puts in, why do you come up with the weird stuff that GERMAN Castrol is the only stuff to use, when the US Castrol meets VW specs, and SAE specs etc. As does total and several others, you know, but they don't?


Try this on for size: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...olkswagen-wins-judges-approval-103853568.html

Excerpt:



> _The class action lawsuit alleges that the 1.8 liter turbo engines were overly prone to the formation of oil sludge and coking deposits. These deposits cause abnormally high incidence of engine failure even when maintained according to the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations._


There is a lot of data on BITOG and even TDIClub to support that many VW-approved oils do not protect some of their engines adequately. All AudiSportA4 is trying to do is share data, inform and educate people that some of these VW engines need good oils to prevent premature wear, failure and buildup of the intake. Call it a design flaw on VAG's part, but the problems exist and there's a plethora of data to back it up. These problems aren't always prevented with VW-approved oils (and I don't mean oils that claim to meet a VW spec, I'm talking the ones that have actually paid VW the money to review their oil and get it officially approved by VW).

Ignore data like this at your own risk if you own one of these engines. For warranty purposes you'd want to use a VW-spec'd oil, sure. Just choose wisely. Even if the oils meet the same spec, they are by no means a guarantee that you won't have problems down the road. Not with some of VW's engines, anyway. UOA data at BITOG are good data points to help figure out which oils are working in these particular engines.

It is what it is!


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Pretty funny to call RI_RS4's data "marketing". The term was used to describe ALL the VW 502 oil data he had combined into one study. Another lame rush to a conclusion w/o any facts.


I did not rush to a conclusion; just the opposite. A conclusion _requires_ facts, and the marketing graph you presented is lacking. Ooh, a comparison to some unnamed but "well-known" Audi 502/505 oil. Imagine if Audi advertised a comparison of an R8 to a "well-known" car model without identifying it. At least tell us how "well-known" that oil is so we can maybe guess at what it is.  Even better would be to compare it to not one oil, but 10 or 20 popular or "well-known" Audi 502/505 oils.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

There is really something wrong with you. Do you still not understand that the "well known" moniker refers to THE GROUP of VW 502 oils in small number RS4 DI engines he had data for, not one particular oil? It says "oils" not "oil", what language would you like to see? The term "well known" is superfluous, and to a degree tongue-in-cheek.

To me, it's sarcastic and technically means that he did not "cherry pick" the oils. What's the difference if he said "VW 502 Oils" or "Well-Known VW 502 Oils". Obviously he's taking a jab at the oils that people think are so great, but let him down miserably.

It's not a "marketing tool" either, but a graph that a regular guy prepared to present to his buddies online. I welcome the presentation of your own technical studies.

If you bothered to read and comprehend what I already posted, you would know this. 

Again, we're back to a few posters who have nothing conceptual to add, nor any technical content, but find their place in nit-picking irrelevant details of serious (and admirable) studies on the subject. It's really sad that VW enthusiasts have such a mind-bogglingly dumb group of trolls that squatted out the lube forum trying to pass off their tortured logic as valid advice and info. It's almost as bad as the Honda forums I've seen. I'm back to driving a VW and am here to set things right.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

AudiSportA4 said:


> trolls


Fitting that you would post that, as I consider BassNotes' posts in this thread to be very close to trolling. At least that crotchety TechMeister character relies on some sort of science for his dismissive posts.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> There is really something wrong with you. Do you still not understand that the "well known" moniker refers to THE GROUP of VW 502 oils in small number RS4 DI engines he had data for, not one particular oil? It says "oils" not "oil", what language would you like to see? The term "well known" is superfluous, and to a degree tongue-in-cheek.
> 
> To me, it's sarcastic and technically means that he did not "cherry pick" the oils. What's the difference if he said "VW 502 Oils" or "Well-Known VW 502 Oils". Obviously he's taking a jab at the oils that people think are so great, but let him down miserably.
> 
> ...


With critical information hidden behind the veil of "well-known," it's premature to conclude that the RLI oil in the marketing graph is superior. It might be, but the evidence is lacking. Maybe some day it could be made known to us mere dumb mortals who might be persuaded to buy the oil if there were something behind the raving claims of a single fan. I, for one, would like to know if this or another brand and type of oil is better than what I currently use, and I'd like to see technical data--preferably from an independent party, but I'd also consider something actually transparent and repeatable from a manufacturer.

I don't think you would be interested in my technical studies, since they don't involve motor oils.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

What difference would it make if he labeled the brand on each and every data point? He's comparing RLI to VW 502 oils in general, as a group, not to a single one nor each other. 

The author knows more about lubes in VAG DI engines than anyone here, and I'm sure he wouldn't give a rat's ass what you think.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> What difference would it make if he labeled the brand on each and every data point?


For one thing, it would tell us what oils are being compared. If you don't care to know, that's fine for you, but don't go touting it as proof that the RLI oil is superior.



> He's comparing RLI to VW 502 oils in general, as a group, not to a single one nor each other.


That's pretty useless then, unless you want to pretend that they're all the same.



> The author knows more about lubes in VAG DI engines than anyone here, and I'm sure he wouldn't give a rat's ass what you think.


The author of what, the marketing graphic? I didn't ask him to give a rat's ass. And if he knows something, maybe he could share it.

Kid, you get all pissy when someone doesn't agree with you.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

jmj said:


> At least that crotchety TechMeister character relies on some sort of science


At least? Some sort? Those are understatements. Techmeister's posts are a breath of fresh air. I appreciate his knowledge that he shares.


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## RobMan8023 (Jul 17, 2002)

BassNotes said:


> With critical information hidden behind the veil of "well-known," it's premature to conclude that the RLI oil in the *marketing graph* is superior.


For what it's worth, here's the original thread over at BITOG where the OP discusses the chart and defends it:

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1173372&page=1

You'll see he lists the oils tested on page 2, which are:

Amsoil 5W40
Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Castrol TXT 505 5w40
Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40
Factory Oil
Fuchs Titan GT1 5W-30
Lubro-Moly Vollsynthese 5w40
Mobil 1 0W-40
Motul 300V 5W-40
Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40
Motul 8100 X-lite 0W30
Motul Xcess 5W-40
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40
RLI Biosyn 10W-40 PCMO
RLI Biosyn 40W
RLI Biosyn 5W-40
Rotella T CJ4 10W-30


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

BassNotes said:


> At least? Some sort? Those are understatements. Techmeister's posts are a breath of fresh air. I appreciate his knowledge that he shares.




Compared to your unnecessarily combative drivel, I would agree.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Yawn.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

jmj said:


> Compared to your unnecessarily combative drivel, I would agree.


I apologize for any unnecessarily combative drivel. I thought I had deleted it all.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

RobMan8023 said:


> For what it's worth, here's the original thread over at BITOG where the OP discusses the chart and defends it:
> 
> http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1173372&page=1
> 
> ...


Thank you for that!


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

Of course they are consitant, as is teh water temp, thus a THERMOSTAT! DUH. Wow, real engineers here, and they are declaring VW specs not good for VW engines, yet they don't even understand how everything is regulated in oil and water etc. EEEEESSSSHHHHH. I'm sure VW doesn't know what some outside guy does about their own procuts, so I'd certainly use information from who knows who, about what oils to use. Funny stuff, By the way what is RLI brand anyway? And why wouldn't VW test and spec it, if it was good stuff?


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

Where is Total? i just got 2 5 Liter jugs for my Audi and GTI 5-40 one size does fit all. On sale, is also what matters when deciding what oil to use, if it meets specs, it's good. so far either Castrol Syntec or Total, price, availability, etc. All this other bickering about minutia on some specs that some genius is touting, is really funny. Has VW been in touch to see what you know, and they don't?


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

CE said:


> Of course they are consitant, as is teh water temp, thus a THERMOSTAT! DUH. Wow, real engineers here, and they are declaring VW specs not good for VW engines, yet they don't even understand how everything is regulated in oil and water etc.


Nobody is saying the VW spec is bad for our cars. the position is that VW spec is not the whole story and end-all, be-all consideration when selecting motor oil. On the contrary, the Castrol 0w-30 oil that was suggested by some ppl here is a VW spec oil. Please read before inserting additional misinformation.




CE said:


> I'm sure VW doesn't know what some outside guy does about their own procuts, so I'd certainly use information from who knows who, about what oils to use. Funny stuff


This made me laugh - thanks.



CE said:


> And why wouldn't VW test and spec it, if it was good stuff?


For more reasons than I'm sure any of us here could accurately surmise. My feeble guesses include:
- Does not add value to VW to make sure that every oil on the market meets spec. 
- Beyond the initial investment by VW to determine desired oil characteristics as well as manufacturers that can provide a readily available (and brand recognized) product, it likely falls onto the oil manufacturer to spend the money to try to certify that their product is suitable. If RLI thought it would be a value-add to be able to label their bottles with a VW 50x spec, I would hope they would take steps to certify their oil, presuming they have the resources to do so.
-Oil companies are constantly developing new breeds and twists of existing breeds of their current product line. A moving target isn't something VW needs to concern themselves with. where do they draw the line? Should VW constantly be testing and certifying oils for the entire life of the 2.0T if the 2.0T (and other dependencies) don't demand it (read: if current specs are satisfactory)? It wouldn't make fiscal sense.


----------



## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Don't waste effort on these guy's "questions". I've opened up a whole new world of ideas and info for the membership here. Don't let the bottom-feeders drag down level of interaction here on this important subject. Once people start pulling UOAs and reporting great results, things will simmer down.

For the guys who posted and sent me legitimate questions, I actually appreciate your interest in the subject. Helping people out makes it all worthwhile for me and makes the bull**** more tolerable.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

A3Tripod said:


> Nobody is saying the VW spec is bad for our cars. the position is that VW spec is not the whole story and end-all, be-all consideration when selecting motor oil. On the contrary, the Castrol 0w-30 oil that was suggested by some ppl here is a VW spec oil. Please read before inserting additional misinformation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that sums up the situation quite neatly. :thumbup:


----------



## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> For the guys who posted and sent me legitimate questions, I actually appreciate your interest in the subject.


But how long does it take you to answer them? I gave you some legitimate questions that are still awaiting answers. It makes me wonder whether you won't or can't.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

CE said:


> Of course they are consitant, as is teh water temp, thus a THERMOSTAT! DUH. Wow, real engineers here, and they are declaring VW specs not good for VW engines, yet they don't even understand how everything is regulated in oil and water etc. EEEEESSSSHHHHH. I'm sure VW doesn't know what some outside guy does about their own procuts, so I'd certainly use information from who knows who, about what oils to use. Funny stuff, By the way what is RLI brand anyway? And why wouldn't VW test and spec it, if it was good stuff?




Why would I take technical advice from someone who can't (or is too lazy to) spell three letter words correctly on a computer that underlines your typographical errors as you peck them out on the keyboard? 

I get it; you consider yourself the paragon of oil knowledge because you've never had a single problem in two zillion miles of driving VWs, and it's all because you slavishly adhere to VW oil specs, which could never, ever possibly be incorrect.

Consider yourself lucky and move along already.


----------



## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*let it go*

on and on and on. everybody has an opinion, most of whats here is good. we all care, it's just not that complicated.

Key cycles and driving conditions have as much to do with determinining when to change the oil as mileage. Use quality oil, common sense and thing will work out.

bet this is not the last word.


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

skier45 said:


> bet this is not the last word.


Proving you right =P


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Wait. Let's all keep making up speculative questions about irrelevant issues and then post dismissive responses instead of hard science and rational analysis. This is fun.


----------



## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*on and on and on again*

It's never gonna die


----------



## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Wait. Let's all keep making up speculative questions about irrelevant issues and then post dismissive responses instead of hard science and rational analysis. This is fun.


Or promotional posts instead of hard science and rational analysis.


----------



## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

^^^ "Well-known" troll.


----------



## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiKid, why are you so insecure about being challenged? You make unfounded assertions, and when asked to clarify or at least back them up, you attack the questioner.

Tell you what—when you make an assertion that you want everyone to accept without question, just tell us. Those who don't agree with you can just say, "Oh, that's nice" and leave you alone to pat yourself on the back.


----------



## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/AskMobil_Homepage.aspx


Question:
Does Mobil 1 Contain the Additive for Flat Tappet Cams?

Answer:
For older, flat tappet engines where wear may be more of a concern, we offer a number of oil products which are higher in phosphorus than API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. These include Mobil 1 15W-50 (1,200 ppm), Mobil 1 0W-40 (1,000 ppm) and Mobil 1 High Mileage 5W-30, 10W-30 and 10W-40 (900 ppm). For all newer engines and flat tappet engines in normal service, API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils are preferred for better fuel economy and for the protection of catalytic systems with lower phosphorous (800 ppm).


http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf


----------



## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

RobMan8023 said:


> The only VW approved oil I have easy access to is Mobil-1. I'm not hung-up on using VW approved oil, but do want to use the best quality oil I can buy at a place like Autozone or Advance Auto.
> 
> They carry Valvoline Synpower, Castrol Syntec, Mobil-1 among others, but the ones that are always touted on BITOG forums and here are things like Motul, Redline, Amsoil etc. I could also pick up the Castrol SLX stuff at the dealership, but I'd have to drive a bit farther to get it...
> 
> Any thoughts? It's for a 2.0TSI engine which beats the crap out of oil.


Any VW approved oil of the correct viscosity for the application will serve you well. VW actually tests the oils in your engine and only approves the ones that provide the proper lubrication. No one has the ability to tell you if one oil is better than another in your engine unless they conduct the comprehensive and expensive oil test sequence that VW uses.

BITOG is a fanbois site with a lot of false information posted as gospel. Unless you have the expertise to understand the subject in great detail, you'd be wise to stay away from BITOG as you will likely be duped by the technically challenged who actually believe the ad hype but have zero oil test sequence data to support their beliefs. Purveyors of oil reap huge profits from naive, technically challenged consumers.


----------



## maxin relaxin (Sep 9, 2010)

i was reading this thread and i got a lil confused, so i thought i may basically be easier to just flat out ask.

I recently purchased a 2000 Golf GLS 2.0 , so upon reading this 










would be the best oil for my car?


i live in New Jersey and get some extreme winters and hot summers.... 

any help would be appreciated, thanks guys :thumbup: :beer:


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

The "best oil" isn't necessarily the best oil for every car. I suspect a 2000 Jetta consumes a bit of oil, and that subject I just covered in a concurrent thread you can look over. German Syntec is a fantastic product in turbo apps, but not terribly cost-effective and far overkill in a 2.0 unless you are doing extended drain intervals over 10k miles or are really in arctic conditions. Feel free to try it on a whim, it runs very smoothly and has a ton of physical and chemical features going for it, like a -60f pour point and a unique methylcrylate co-olgimer base oil, which I contributed to paying the bill for independent testing in 2004.

I would normally recommend a high-miles 10w-30 or 5w-30 based on your consumption (I know your climate). The jug Mobil 1 High-Miles is an excellent deal compared to the German Syntec, and is more ideal for you if you want a synth oil. Otherwise Maxlife, GTX HM or Pennzoil HM will work perfectly over 5-6k miles interval. One other product would be the HD oil, Shell Rotella 10w-30 Semi-Syn, $11/4q at WalMart. A pretty high performance product. Substantially cheaper than Syntec and will do the exact same job. btw-I've run a lot of different oils in my Mom's 2.0 since 1996. It's harder to think of ones that WON'T work well than to think of ones that will.


----------



## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Techmister, you should take your clown party over to bitog and see if you you can find a single soul who won't be laughing you out of the tent in 24 hours. Weren't you quoting Doug Hillary at one point??? 

LO frikin' L

You're no more a "challenge" to me than the innocent store clerks, fast-food employees or dog groomers you abuse are, as you unleash your daily infantile tantrums on them. 

That verbal diarrea you just posted is so logically flawed, it's almost epic. It assumes VW tested every oil in the universe and only approved the best ones as functional lubricants. This is even funnier when you consider the meager lube requirements of non-turbo engines like the 2.0 that previous to 1998 did not spec VW 502. 

Independent labs (like Ashland) tested a group of lubes for VW which were submitted for a 3 year certification license at the cost of $500k. These product are later marketed to the public as "approved" products that carry a premium price. The process has nothing to do with the myriad of oils produced for the US market, nor the oils which simply carry the generic "self-reported" ACEA A3 spec that VW 502 is based on. A monkey could be trained to use the spec comparator tool...

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html

Anyone claiming a dual-rated HD 5w-40 oil like Rotella with tons of heavy industrial specs including European ones, is not as good as a generic 5w-40 VW 502 oils like Syntec, is on the pipe or suffering from one or more cognitive biases...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cognitive_biases

Feel free to self-diagnose Techmister, it'll save a lot of embarrassing posts from your co-members if they have to do it. :screwy:

* Cognitive bias

A

* Acquiescence bias
* Adaptive bias
* Affect heuristic
* Affective filter
* Affective forecasting
* Ambiguity effect
* Anchoring
* Apophenia
* Attentional bias
* Attitude polarization
* Attribute substitution
* Attributional bias
* Availability heuristic

B

* Bandwagon effect
* Base rate fallacy
* Belief bias
* Bias blind spot
* Bias of an estimator
* Black-dog bias

C

* Choice-supportive bias
* Clustering illusion
* List of cognitive biases
* Cognitive closure (philosophy)
* Cognitive dissonance
* Cognitive distortion
* Confirmation bias
* Congruence bias
* Conjunction fallacy
* Contrast effect
* Cultural bias

D

* Data dredging
* Déformation professionnelle
* Deindividualisation
* Denomination effect
* Distinction bias
* Dunning–Kruger effect

E

* Egocentric bias
* Empathy gap
* Endowment effect
* Exaggeration
* Experimenter's regress
* Exposure effect
* Extraordinarity bias

F

* False consensus effect
* False memory syndrome
* Familiarity heuristic
* Fluency heuristic


F cont.

* Forer effect
* Framing effect (psychology)
* Fundamental attribution error
* Fuzzy-trace theory

G

* Gambler's fallacy
* Generation effect
* Group attribution error
* Group-serving bias

H

* Halo effect
* Hawthorne effect
* Hindsight bias
* Hostile media effect
* Hot hand fallacy
* Hyperbolic discounting

I

* Illusion of asymmetric insight
* Illusion of control
* Illusion of transparency
* Illusory correlation
* Illusory superiority
* Impact bias
* Implicit cognition
* Inequity aversion
* Information bias (epidemiology)
* Information bias (psychology)
* Ingroup bias
 * Introspection illusion

J

* Just-world phenomenon

L

* List of memory biases
* Locus of control
* Loss aversion
* Lost in the mall technique
* Ludic fallacy

M

* Magical thinking
* Mindset
* Minimisation (psychology)
* Misinformation effect
* Moral credential

N

* Name letter effect
* Negativity bias
* Negativity effect
* Neglect of probability
* Normalcy bias

O

* Observer-expectancy effect
* Omission bias
* Optimism bias
* Out-group homogeneity bias
* Outcome bias
* Overconfidence effect


O cont.

* Overjustification effect

P

* Pareidolia
* Peak-end rule
* Perceptual psychology
* Persecution complex
* Pessimism bias
* Physical attractiveness stereotype
* Picture superiority effect
* Planning fallacy
* Pollyanna principle
* Positive illusions
* Positivity effect
* Post-purchase rationalization
* Precision bias
* Pseudocertainty effect
* Psychological projection
* Psychological pricing
* Publication bias
* Pygmalion effect

R

* Rationalization (making excuses)
* Realism theory
* Recall bias
* Regression fallacy
* Response bias
* Rosy retrospection

S

* Scarcity heuristic
* Selective perception
* Self-deception
* Self-fulfilling prophecy
* Self-serving bias
* Self-defeating prophecy
* Serial position effect
* Spacing effect
* Status quo bias
* Subadditivity effect
* Subject-expectancy effect
* Subjective validation
* Sunk costs

T

* Trait ascription bias
* True-believer syndrome

V

* Valence effect
* Von Restorff effect

W

* Well travelled road effect
* Wishful thinking
* Worse-than-average effect

Z

* Zero-risk bias


----------



## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*if you don't believe audisporta4 is right just ask him*

and on and on and on


----------



## maxin relaxin (Sep 9, 2010)

AudiSportA4 said:


> The "best oil" isn't necessarily the best oil for every car. I suspect a 2000 Jetta consumes a bit of oil, and that subject I just covered in a concurrent thread you can look over. German Syntec is a fantastic product in turbo apps, but not terribly cost-effective and far overkill in a 2.0 unless you are doing extended drain intervals over 10k miles or are really in arctic conditions. Feel free to try it on a whim, it runs very smoothly and has a ton of physical and chemical features going for it, like a -60f pour point and a unique methylcrylate co-olgimer base oil, which I contributed to paying the bill for independent testing in 2004.
> 
> I would normally recommend a high-miles 10w-30 or 5w-30 based on your consumption (I know your climate). The jug Mobil 1 High-Miles is an excellent deal compared to the German Syntec, and is more ideal for you if you want a synth oil. Otherwise Maxlife, GTX HM or Pennzoil HM will work perfectly over 5-6k miles interval. One other product would be the HD oil, Shell Rotella 10w-30 Semi-Syn, $11/4q at WalMart. A pretty high performance product. Substantially cheaper than Syntec and will do the exact same job. btw-I've run a lot of different oils in my Mom's 2.0 since 1996. It's harder to think of ones that WON'T work well than to think of ones that will.


thank you sir for the good info :thumbup:

upon reading your suggestions i came across these 4.... 

10W-30

Castrol/5 lts. SAE 10W-30 GTX High Mileage motor oil









Mobil/1 qt. SAE 10W-30 high mileage full synthetic motor oil









5W-30

Castrol/5 lts. SAE 5W-30 GTX High Mileage motor oil









Castrol/1 qt. SAE 5W-30 Edge full synthetic motor oil









i was told that it was a good idea to use synthetic, so basically im debating between those 4, im not looking for the cheap alternative, im willing to pay just as long as my car lasts and runs well. 

now for the oil change itself, someone told me every 3k then someone said 5K then someone said every 10k, im figuring its 5k, but what do you suggest? its daily driver...

Now does gas go hand in hand with oil? im currently using premium, but someone told me that it may be "too much" for my engine, but then again to my knowledge the higher grade gas just means its cleaner and has less impurities in it. i know this is the oil thread but i thought it may factor. thanks once again. :thumbup:


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

AudiSportA4 said:


> Techmister, you should take your clown party over to bitog and see if you you can find a single soul who won't be laughing you out of the tent in 24 hours. Weren't you quoting Doug Hillary at one point???
> 
> LO frikin' L
> 
> ...


And you were the one complaining about trolling. :laugh:


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## gehr (Jan 28, 2004)

BassNotes said:


> And you were the one complaining about trolling. :laugh:


:thumbup: :laugh:


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

The truth hurts, I guess.


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## A3Tripod (Sep 28, 2005)

*Pennzoil ultra at wally world*

do I dare bring this back up top? Just so you all know. Pennzoil Ultra is available at Walmart now. Jug containers only (at my store) and didn't see a 5w-40 weight, but for $26/jug, that's a fantastic price for their 'top of the line'. I think I saw 5w-30, 5w-20, and 10w-30. none of those read VW spec, but I'm sure with this product being more readily available, we will start to see some UoAs in the near term.

If anyone would like to volunteer..I wouldn't be opposed to leeching off your results 


edit: the 5w-30 might be a good winter weight to try out.
edit2: Looking at the website, it reads that this oil is VW 502, 505, and 503 approved if you get the EURO edition.
edit3: AutoZone has a promo till 11/19/10 for 5 quarts Ultra and a Bosch filter for $32.99. Maybe the singles come in a 5w40 weight...


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## bpylantvw (Jan 29, 2010)

*Mobil 0w-40/Tungsten Disulfide mix*

Mobil one 0w-40 mixed with some 0.6 micron WS2(Tungsten Disulfide) powder. www.lowerfriction.com


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm thinking about giving some amsoil a try since I'm out of warranty. I have some ultra 5w40 euro to try - but amsoil is after that


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

cryption said:


> I'm thinking about giving some amsoil a try since I'm out of warranty. I have some ultra 5w40 euro to try - but amsoil is after that


How will you objectively determine how well Amsoil lubricates your engine? Will you be conducting the VW oil test sequence? Will you be disassembling the engine to inspect and measure all components before and after using Amsoil - similar to procedures used in ACEA and other oil test sequences? The reason I ask is because few people have the means to objectively differentiate the actual lubrication performance of one oil from another. 

As noted in other oil threads a UOA can not tell you if one oil lubricates better than another so I'm curious to know how you will objectively determine the lubrication performance of Amsoil or any other oil in your engine?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...catid=40:past-articles-of-the-month&Itemid=78

There is some accurate info. at BITOG mixed in with mostly B.S. baseless opinion and ad hype but you need to be knowledgeable on the subject matter to sort the facts from the B.S. Doug Hillary is one of the good guys who tries to help dispell the B.S. that passes as fact.

Many of the fanbois get pissy when their beliefs are not supported by objective test data. Reality can bite when you get sucked into the ad hype and foolishness that passes for knowledge.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

http://www.dysonanalysis.com/servicelist.html


Tell Terry I said "hi".


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

cryption said:


> I'm thinking about giving some amsoil a try since I'm out of warranty. I have some ultra 5w40 euro to try - but amsoil is after that


The trick to AMSoil is to find a local shop that stocks it so you can skip the shipping. Prefered membership is one way to go to save some money, but I don't think it's worth it...although great products. Other than price, AMSoil is an ideal choice for lubing a turbo and/or German car. 

Good advice and pricing can be had form Gary Allen on the East Coast and Pablo in the West.


One other private label to consider is Brad Penn. Their 10w-30 semisyn had a great 2.0 FSI report.

http://www.bradpennracing.com/

Another is Schaeffer's. iirc, they do have a VW approved 5w-40.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/


TM should def give these independents a call and let them know what's up.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

rACING OILS AND OILS FOR STANDARD STREET USE, DAY IN DAY OUT ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS. iF IT WORKS ON A TRACK AT HIGH SPEEDS, FOR A FEW HOURS, THAT MEANS NOTHING, THAT IT WILL BE CORRECT FOR EVERYDAY, COLD STARTS AND COMUTER DRIVING. dON'T BE SOLD ON TEH bS, O IT'S RACING OIL, IT MUST BE BETTER. TOTALY wrong.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Pretty much. Racing oil isn't formulated for extended drain intervals. I have some Valvoline Racing Synthetic in intend to use for 4 months, up to 5k intervals. The best oil for normal use is normal oil.


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## groundhog (Oct 4, 2010)

I vote for Castrol Syntec


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## Blue Golfer (Feb 4, 2003)

So is Castrol SAE 5W-40 the best for a 2.5-liter fiver?


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Castrol*

It meets VW specs, it what ya use. I use Castrol and Total 5W 40 both meet VW specs 502 etc. 2.0T It even has a Castrol printed on the filler cover for the oil. TOTAL is easier to get in 5L jugs at Autohausas or other online places.


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## Vag*Tech (Sep 3, 2013)

Liqui moly long life, meets 505.01, 501.00 and 501.01


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## Gomboult (Aug 22, 2013)

German Castrol is my go to for turbo applications.

In my 2.5 NA I'm not so discriminating. The filter is more important than the oil in the NA.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Mann Filter*

TotaL 5W 40W Syn and Mann filters from Autohaus az or Amazon Mann filter are OEM, they work great cost the same as lesser brands, made in Germany.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

I use MANN, but truth is that MANN is restocked in germany. Most of the MANN filters as well as OEM filters that MANN produces are made in Czech republic and Bosnia. They are same equality, do not get me wrong, but Germans too play game with these Made in laws.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

2.5 is much easier on oil then 2.0T. However, castol 0W30 (GC) and 0W40 (BC, you can find it in Advance Auto parts) are far more superior then 5W40.
Also, Pennzoil Ultra 5W40 (Amazon) or M1 0W40 are also much better then Castrol 5W40.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*much better than Castrol HOW?*

Please explain why something is "better" versus another brand if they both meet sped VW 502 505 etc. total meets spec at 5-40 VW says CASTROL right on the filler cap, Porsche says Mobil 1, its' all who they decide to deal with for MONEY and joint endorsements. I also think the 0w 30W Castrol does not have meeting VW spec printed on label does it? Always 5-40 has VW spec amongst others. I use Total Quartz 5-40 one jug is perfect fill on a change for 2.0t with new MANN filter. Mobil 1 castrol Total and others, why do you think one is better than the other? Same with gasoline, they all come out of the same tanks maybe different additives, or not?


----------



## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

CE said:


> Please explain why something is "better" versus another brand if they both meet sped VW 502 505 etc. total meets spec at 5-40 VW says CASTROL right on the filler cap, Porsche says Mobil 1, its' all who they decide to deal with for MONEY and joint endorsements. I also think the 0w 30W Castrol does not have meeting VW spec printed on label does it? Always 5-40 has VW spec amongst others. I use Total Quartz 5-40 one jug is perfect fill on a change for 2.0t with new MANN filter. Mobil 1 castrol Total and others, why do you think one is better than the other? Same with gasoline, they all come out of the same tanks maybe different additives, or not?



Both GC 0W30 and castrol 5W40 meet VW 502.00. However, base stocks are different. 5W40 is made from Group III base stock and it is hydrocracked, which means it is not fully synthetic (however, bcs of lack of regulation in the U.S. mfg. can call them fully synthetic although they are derived from mineral oils). 
GC is Grop IV or PAO oil. This is very important part: it meets MB 229.5 unlike castrol 5W40.
Now, what MB229.5 has to do with VW 502.00? 
Well, in order for oil to meet MB229.5, one of the requirements is low NOACK. Meaning oil has to have NOACK lower then 10%. That means that oil that meets MB 229.5 is very stable, has low volatility. 
Castrol 5W40 is probably worst Castrol that meets Euro requirements. 
On other hand, Castrol 0W40 that you can buy in Advance Auto Parts (Madi in Belgium) meets all VW specs (502.00 and 505.00) and MB 229.5. 
Of course in VW gasoline you can use 5W40, that is OK. But it is not stable and durable like 0W30 or 0W40, or PU 5W40 or M1 0W40. 
I had 5W40 Castrol several times in Passat 1.8T and after 4K i could hear valves knocking (hydro lifters knocking). When I swtiched to GC 0W30, I did changes at 8K, never heard any knocking. 
In CC I change every 5K, but that is bcs of fuel dilution.
I personally like Total, but for 2.0T i would make sure it meets also MB229.5. I am thinking to move to PU 5W40 during summer months. It seems that Pennzoil (Shell) did some really good thing bcs. they lowered NOACK to 6.8%, and I would ay right now it is most stable oil on th market. Also, HTHS is at 3.88 which is what is really important in Turbo engines.
I use also MANN filters and OEM filters are anyway made by MANN.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2012)

Vag*Tech said:


> Liqui moly long life, meets 505.01, 501.00 and 501.01


Yes and Liquimoly has a pretty strong following which is one of the reasons we stock it.

We also like to offer the OEM VW product for all the guys who like to stick with all genuine VW products

LiquiMoly High Tec 5W40- LM3864 meets VW/Audi Spec 50200 and 50500

For anyone that doesnt know those specs above pretty much apply to most VW/ Audi gas engines including 2.5 5cyl, 2.0t FSI and 2.0T TSI egines







Liqui Moly Top Tec 5W30 LM2011 Meets the VW Spec 505.01 and 507 for TDI engines including the common rail. 






Then you can always go with the OEM oils that you would found in use at your local VW dealer.

Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W40 - 06256 meets VW/Audi Spec 50200 and 50500








Castrol Edge Professional LL03 5W30 G0521951L for New TDI meets the VW 50700 spec


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*interesting*

Thanks


----------



## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Liqui Moly (3864)*5W-40 Leichtlauf High Tech is what they told me to use in my 2.5. I believe in supporting my local economy in my town of 22,000 people. I found it at Napa off the shelf. They have huge import warehouse here and it comes on a truck a few hours after I call. Its relatively cheaper than other options. Further more liqui moly has a lot of experience with german and vag motor oils so their reccomendation is what I stand by on my 2.5 oil choices.

Ceracoat is also amazing. Try it. Just do... I dont feel like arguing about oil additives but liqui moly possibly has made one worth using.

Just a friendly little reminder... replace locking wheel bolts before you lose the key!!!


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

tchilds said:


> Liqui Moly (3864)*5W-40 Leichtlauf High Tech is what they told me to use in my 2.5. I believe in supporting my local economy in my town of 22,000 people. I found it at Napa off the shelf. They have huge import warehouse here and it comes on a truck a few hours after I call. Its relatively cheaper than other options. Further more liqui moly has a lot of experience with german and vag motor oils so their reccomendation is what I stand by on my 2.5 oil choices.
> 
> Ceracoat is also amazing. Try it. Just do... I dont feel like arguing about oil additives but liqui moly possibly has made one worth using.
> 
> Just a friendly little reminder... replace locking wheel bolts before you lose the key!!!


Yes I always take the wheel locks off, they are not necessary. Dealer always does it for me gratis. It will only be TROUBLE if you ever need to do the wheel somewhere. NEVER had a wheel taken in all my years.


----------



## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Nice dealership. The three here all refused to loan me a key. A couple quoted me $140 to replace 4 locking lugs... 

I finally parked my car in service garage unannounced and demanded a master set if they wanted my car to move. Mind you this is after I spent an hour removing two with an extractor... no sympathy from the stealerships here.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

Been dealing with them since 1986 on about 10-12 vehicles. Best car dealer around. Stick with the good ones!


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

But yes definitely go liqui moly guys. They're as good as castrol and mobil 1 used to be!

Anything that comes in a purple bottle has to be good anyway lol. I added a picture of the beast. She needs a lil help... vacation project lol. Just an oil change this morning. The mess will have to wait 

Oh the gorilla tape wrapped on filter housing is just to protect it from my metal jawed oil wrench... still hasn't cracked. I prime the filter housing before I screw it back in to prevent the chance of a dry start after a very thorough oil change.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

tchilds said:


> But yes definitely go liqui moly guys. They're as good as castrol and mobil 1 used to be!
> 
> Anything that comes in a purple bottle has to be good anyway lol. I added a picture of the beast. She needs a lil help... vacation project lol. Just an oil change this morning. The mess will have to wait
> 
> Oh the gorilla tape wrapped on filter housing is just to protect it from my metal jawed oil wrench... still hasn't cracked. I prime the filter housing before I screw it back in to prevent the chance of a dry start after a very thorough oil change.


New 2.0t has a spin on oil filter with integral valve no mess right on top, great idea. 15 minutes to change oil. My previous VR6 had the cartridge style filter, new one design is much much much better easier, no drips no spills


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

CE said:


> New 2.0t has a spin on oil filter with integral valve no mess right on top, great idea. 15 minutes to change oil. My previous VR6 had the cartridge style filter, new one design is much much much better easier, no drips no spills


And ya should get a Asmacher oil filter cap wrench, uses 1/2 drive simple and no damaged filters, use the right tool for the job.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

20 cents of tape... still not damaged or leaking.

I have broken enough stuff to handle it. It only needs to be a fraction of a turn tighter than hand tight anyway on the 2.5.

I clean the housing and lube the threads/oring and make sure to pound the filter all the way down until it snaps into the housing. I just use the oil wrench a fraction turn after I crank it down by hand... carefully.

Ill add that the mann filters snap in pretty easily every time.


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## aFOURstance (Jan 31, 2011)

Castrol 0w30 European formula for the winter for me 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

aFOURstance said:


> Castrol 0w30 European formula for the winter for me
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


0W30 GC is superior oil.
I switched to M1 bcs now living on 6,035ft, so flash point is lower, and M1 has 15c higher flash point then GC.
But love GC!!!


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

CE said:


> New 2.0t has a spin on oil filter with integral valve no mess right on top, great idea. 15 minutes to change oil. My previous VR6 had the cartridge style filter, new one design is much much much better easier, no drips no spills


I wish the 2.5 had that feature. There are tools to prevent a small mess for the old vr6 style. I owned a 24v 6spd before this 2.5 5 speed but still don't have the tools.

My wifes and brothers 2.2 ecotec in their 06 cobalt and 04 grand am have a no mess top down solution cast into the block. Great engine btw. I run castrol edge in both their ecotecs with premium oil filters.


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

Has anyone used Castrol Syntec 0W40?
I recently found it at Canadian Tire... 
Approved for VW 502 00/ 505 00
It's made in Belgium (I know, weird).


It's a closer spec to the required 5W40 than the GC 0W30 is... 

Thought I'd give it a try.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Castrol Edge/Syntec or whatever the bottle calls is definitely good oil. 

My wife and brothers 2.2 ecotec loves that stuff. I run it in the 5w30 in their cars. It is definitely one of the better off the shelf oils but its not really worth what you pay for it versus some other slightly harder to find items. At walmart I wouldn't hesitate to pick some up though if that's your choices.

Walmart has shell rotella, castrol, and the new mobil 1 that I prefer not to mess with... but can be good in some situations too, just not at sea level IMO lol.



Napa stocks Liqui Moly in my area. Rather than switching my oil and wasting hours of my life doing all kinds of research I just trust them. Napa can get me a couple cases and some Ceratec in a few hours on a saturday truck too if its not on the shelf. I prefer to just use this Liqui Moly because its made in Germany (as far as I know, close enough for me either way) and is a reputable company experienced with our motors and manufacturer specifications/needs. I have no problem just trusting them to do right by me, for what I'm paying in reasonable cost oil changes I doubt I could do better.

By adding the ceratec to an oil that a German oil manufacturer made for my German engine, I'm pretty sure all bases are covered. The Ceratec is the only additive I've ever used in my life, it is not snake oil like 99.9% of oil additives out there.


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## Boner Champ (May 9, 2013)

I'm running Edge w/Titanium, 5w-30 this winter. I'll do a UOA to compare to my other 30 weight winter runs.

Titanium additive is the latest tech, from conoco. If yoy look over their Kendall Synth line, they all have Ti add packs....except the Euro spec 5w-40. wth, we're told Euro oils are superior to anything. Nope, the mfg speced Euro oil formula are stuck with older "approved" additive packs. Syntec 5w-40 is a very old mg based addpack, from 1998. Even the GC 0w-30 we love is pretty old, aka SLX...it was factory fill for a while. 2002, my B6...










What's happened since is Europe has mandated low metallic ash oils, VW 504/507. Here, they're known by Castrol SLX Pro and Mobil 1 5w-30 ESP, some others too. The problem is our fuels are low quality and contain alcohol and sulphur, and the new low-additive oil do not react well. I know that they are also back-speced VW-502, but they really only meet the physical properties of VW 502, not the exact same real-world result, based on....whatever. Don't use it past 5k. It's expensive and serves no function in North America except 507 TDI service. 

The dealer's choice of "Belgian" Syntec 5w-40 502 was correct: high additives (API SL) and thick to handle fuel dilution from our rich tune (for low NOx) No stratified charge mode in NA too. The thickness and additives of Syntec 5w-40 were intended for the OE dealer 10k inclusive services. Castrol is the Official Oil of Audi/VW.

So- The best oil is the one that works best...period. Often, what works best is dino oil changed frequently. There's no substitute for physically draining out contaminates. That is, 2x changes of dino at 5k is a better call instead of 1x change of synth at 10k miles. That's if you have a 2.0, 2.5 or 2.8 VR6 and 2.8 Passat = Audi AFC 30v. Enough said. If you have a turbo, use synth.....but how often?

Some of us like to count miles and fix it to some arbitrary number, 5000, 7500, 10k? I find it best to just change miles based on fixed time and seasonal schedules. 2x a year is ideal, just pick a quality of oil that can go the ANTICIPATED miles. If you drive 24k a year or more, you'll need a 3rd change. I do 2x because I also change visc for the seasons. Def 5w-30 for winter.

Mobil 1 HM has the high additives,a robust 5w-30 w/Euro A5 spec, an even thicker 10w-30 that makes the same specs as VW502, plus a hardcore 10w-40, all formulated overkill. Cheap at W*M, but now I see they have 0w-40 in jugs....still I prefer the HM oil.

Like I said, I prefer dino. For my Boxster 2.7, I have Mobil Clean HM in there. One 10w-40 and one 10w-30 for summer, but with 5w-30 in winter. 9q of synth for one oil change, no thanks. This fluid costs me $30 a change....USA! USA! Frankly, dino oils like Mobil Clean, Pennzoil, Motorcraft/Kendall are not too different than "synth" oils these days.


Gratuitous pic of the Boxster...


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

tchilds said:


> Castrol Edge/Syntec or whatever the bottle calls is definitely good oil.
> 
> My wife and brothers 2.2 ecotec loves that stuff. I run it in the 5w30 in their cars. It is definitely one of the better off the shelf oils but its not really worth what you pay for it versus some other slightly harder to find items. At walmart I wouldn't hesitate to pick some up though if that's your choices.
> 
> ...


The new Mobil1 is not good at sea level? This may be one of the funniest oil posts that I've seen in a long time. 

I use French oil in my Japanese car. Hope it doesn't blow up. 

-Dennis


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## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

I'll stick with Rotella T6.


----------



## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

tchilds said:


> but can be good in some situations too, just not at sea level IMO lol.


Sea level? Are you concerned that seawater will get into the oil?


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## Boner Champ (May 9, 2013)

HDMO T6 will work well, as far as protecting the engine from wear, but it lacks the friction modifiers that a PCMO (passenger car motor oil) has.

I found the high moly in Quaker State to produce an incredibly slick oil, far and away from an HD diesel oil. I used it for my 1st new-car oil change and wow, it ran like a beast.

Anyone who hasn't done their winter change yet should consider a 5w-30, 5w-40 is super thick in cold, thick enough to kill mpg and stay way too thick in a short-trip driving scenario.

5500cSt vs 18,000cSt....you might notice a difference...










Normal operating temp this oil is 14cSt, so cold starting it's >1000x thicker than ideal.

5000cSt for a turbo, or for a NA engine, 10000cSt should be considered the floor for cold starting.


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## Boner Champ (May 9, 2013)

When you consider the meager requirements of VW 502, it's easy to understand how irrelevant it actually is...










A3-1996

HT/HS >3.5cp (part of A3 spec anyway)

VW T4 wear test (like 50 years old!)

Sludge test (directly related to base oil sulphur content, a non-issue since hydrocracking took over, where all base oils are "sunthesized") <correct spelling>

There is also a cold-cranking stipulation, afaik.

Therefore, even a modern dino 10w-40 would make this 1996 spec IF tested against it.

A over-the-counter 5w-30 synth with A3 or A5 surpasses VW 502 and is an excellent choice. Simple rule, use a 5w-40 only if you are confident that you overheat your oil. 

The 2.9cP of the lighter A5 oil is completely sufficient, and the overall package of cheap jug USA 5w-30 with good additive levels WORKS better than VW 502, and better with our poor fuel quality and rich tune than the low-additive Euro formula in the new VW 504 oils. These oils are low saps because the EU legislated certain levels of organo-metallic additives, not because they are the best for your engine but because of environmental regs. In usa, we can still buy "old" API formula oils, like Mobil 1 Hi-Miles w/ SL spec....a killer oil.


See, an A3 30 weight, the mark of a good oil like GC. "Old" API SL spec, which means higher allowed additive levels.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.aspx


----------



## Boner Champ (May 9, 2013)

When you consider the meager requirements of VW 502, it's easy to understand how irrelevant it actually is...










A3-1996

HT/HS >3.5cp (part of A3 spec anyway)

VW T4 wear test (like 50 years old!)

Sludge test (directly related to base oil sulphur content)

There is also a cold-cranking stipulation, afaik.

Therefore, even a modern dino 10w-40 would make this 1996 spec IF tested against it.

A over-the-counter 5w-30 synth with A3 or A5 surpasses VW 502 and is an excellent choice. Simple rule, use a 5w-40 only if you are confident that you overheat your oil. 

The 2.9cP of the lighter A5 oil is completely sufficient, and the overall package of cheap jug USA 5w-30 with good additive levels WORKS better than VW 502, and better with our poor fuel quality and rich tune than the low-additive Euro formula in the new VW 504 oils. These oils are low saps because the EU legislated certain levels of organo-metallic additives, not because they are the best for your engine but because of environmental regs. In usa, we can still buy "old" API formula oils, like Mobil 1 Hi-Miles w/ SL spec....a killer oil.


See, an A3 30 weight, the mark of a good oil like GC. "Old" API SL spec, which means higher allowed additive levels.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.aspx

BETTER than 502 or 504!


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

Do you know how 0W40 BC stacks up against 5W40 Edge, or 0W30 GC for that matter?
I've used 0W30 GC pretty religiously in both of my 2.0T motors, but recently switched to the 0W40 BC - since it seemed to fit the same spec as the GC but was a little more versatile for winter + 2h highway trips to and from the cottage…



> American Petroleum Institute (API) Service Classifications
> - Petrol : SN, (SM, SL, SJ, SH and all superseded classifications)
> - Diesel : CF
> - ACEA: A3/B3, A3/B4 High performance shear stable petrol/diesel engine oil
> ...


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3RX9TPRoup7aG9KSkE5LTdEUHc/edit


----------



## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Boner Champ said:


> HDMO T6 will work well, as far as protecting the engine from wear, but it lacks the friction modifiers that a PCMO (passenger car motor oil) has.
> 
> I found the high moly in Quaker State to produce an incredibly slick oil, far and away from an HD diesel oil. I used it for my 1st new-car oil change and wow, it ran like a beast.
> 
> ...


Regardless of their actual kinematic viscosity differences at a given temperature, all 5W-x oils *must* pass a cold cranking viscosity test at -30C and *must* have a maximum apparent viscosity of 6,600 mPa's. 
http://www.pqiamerica.com/coldcrank.htm

The creator of the viscosity graph where the chart that you posted comes from (Widman) will tell you that the numbers are less accurate the lower you go below 0C.

-Dennis


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Boner Champ said:


> When you consider the meager requirements of VW 502, it's easy to understand how irrelevant it actually is...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're saying A3 alone on Mobil1 10W-30 "High Miles" beats the A3 + VW, MB, BMW approvals of GC, BC and Mobil1 (and Porsche A40 for BC and M1). Hardly.

http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/RelativePerformanceTool/default.html

You must be the reincarnation of AudiJunkie. 

-Dennis


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Preppy said:


> Do you know how 0W40 BC stacks up against 5W40 Edge, or 0W30 GC for that matter?
> I've used 0W30 GC pretty religiously in both of my 2.0T motors, but recently switched to the 0W40 BC - since it seemed to fit the same spec as the GC but was a little more versatile for winter + 2h highway trips to and from the cottage…
> 
> 
> ...


See the comments above in regards to MB 229.5 (GC, BC meet and 5W-40 does not). BC meets API SN specs since they do not limit zinc and phosphorus like 30 grades do (GC meets API SL). BC is slightly thicker than GC and has a bit more phosphorus than GC (don't recall the zinc level). 

Flip a coin. 

-Dennis


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

Dennis M said:


> See the comments above in regards to MB 229.5 (GC, BC meet and 5W-40 does not). BC meets API SN specs since they do not limit zinc and phosphorus like 30 grades do (GC meets API SL). BC is slightly thicker than GC and has a bit more phosphorus than GC (don't recall the zinc level).
> 
> Flip a coin.
> 
> -Dennis


:thumbup:

Nice.
I did notice a bit more engine noise with the 0W40, though that could be completely anecdotal, and not factual.


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## Boner Champ (May 9, 2013)

Dennis M said:


> You're saying A3 alone on Mobil1 10W-30 "High Miles" beats the A3 + VW, MB, BMW approvals of GC, BC and Mobil1 (and Porsche A40 for BC and M1). Hardly.
> 
> http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/RelativePerformanceTool/default.html
> 
> ...


Friend, you are comparing minimum requirements of these specs. Some of the mfg spec include low-saps, is something I already mentioned in regards to USA grade fuel.

M1 HM has far and away the best and strongest additive package I've ever seen:










If you know of any other comparable oils, please post the VOA for comparison.

A good example of Generic A5 spec-out stripping a Mfg spec 502 can be seen in this diagram...










I have no problem spending more time on this, but want to get the basics right.

If someone wants to post the best 2.0T 502 spec UOA they've had or can find preferably a 5w-40, I'll show my hand of the wear rates in my 30 weight A5 oil's UOA.


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## MichaelMOBIL1r (Aug 16, 2012)

*Hi Just wanted to ask*

Which of the two oil brands is higher in quality...

1) Liqui Moly High Tech Leichtlauf

2) Liqui Moly Synthoil High Tech Leicht Lauf (Vollsynthese)....


Also....I've noticed there were two different types of Synthoil Premiums. Rumor has it Liqui Moly has reformulated their base stocks in these lines....
There is the Synthoil Premium Full-Synthetic (American Written) and Synthoil Premium (Synthetic-Technology). Both lines are avaible on Amazon? Question: Which one has the PAO base-stock?


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## adenilson707 (Nov 4, 2013)

The oil that recently used in my VAG, with 98,000 km. Repsol Elaion Full Perfomance API SM 5W40. Meets VW 502/505.00 standard, still in vogue in Brazil.

Here






















Oil filter(to EA-111 engine)


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Boner Champ said:


> Friend, you are comparing minimum requirements of these specs. Some of the mfg spec include low-saps, is something I already mentioned in regards to USA grade fuel.
> 
> M1 HM has far and away the best and strongest additive package I've ever seen:
> 
> ...


Audi Junkie's VOA that you posted is out of date. Mobil1 10W-30 HM no longer has those levels of Boron and the detergent/dispersant package has been changed to one that now favors much more magnesium and much less calcium. 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2365761
I'll take Mobil1 0W-40 over 10W-30 High Mileage, although the 10W-30 is still good stuff.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3001485/1

If you're looking for "strong" additive package, try Red Line or Motul 300V.

And surely you're not using a $30 uoa to actually compare engine oil and wear rates are you?
Here's some good reading for you:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis


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## WutupYo (Nov 30, 2012)

Alright everybody. I think my eyes are about to bleed trying to read through all of this. A lot of terms I don't quite understand, abbreviations throwing me off and what have you, BUT, it seems that going Castrol or Mobil 1 0w-30/0w-40 is a good route to go in a 2.0t, if I've read everything correctly. I like to be able to pick up my oil locally, so it looks like Advanced near me stocks these oils. I am of the mindset of changing my oils based on season. Should I bother running a 0w- oil in the warm seasons? (I live in Virginia Beach, can be in the 90s in the summer, teens in the winter) The reason I am leaning towards the 0W oils is the post a page or two back stating the )W oils of the companies are superior to their 5W counterparts. I would Most like go with a 0W-30 in the winter, but I'm wondering if I should go 5W-30 in the Summer. Here a two links to the Castrol oils I'm looking at at my Advanced.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...l_10148702-p?navigationPath=L1*14926|L2*15035

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...l_10271314-p?navigationPath=L1*14926|L2*15035

Also what filter would you guys recommend? Mann?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

WutupYo said:


> Alright everybody. I think my eyes are about to bleed trying to read through all of this. A lot of terms I don't quite understand, abbreviations throwing me off and what have you, BUT, it seems that going Castrol or Mobil 1 0w-30/0w-40 is a good route to go in a 2.0t, if I've read everything correctly. I like to be able to pick up my oil locally, so it looks like Advanced near me stocks these oils. I am of the mindset of changing my oils based on season. Should I bother running a 0w- oil in the warm seasons? (I live in Virginia Beach, can be in the 90s in the summer, teens in the winter) The reason I am leaning towards the 0W oils is the post a page or two back stating the )W oils of the companies are superior to their 5W counterparts. I would Most like go with a 0W-30 in the winter, but I'm wondering if I should go 5W-30 in the Summer. Here a two links to the Castrol oils I'm looking at at my Advanced.
> 
> http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...l_10148702-p?navigationPath=L1*14926|L2*15035
> 
> ...




Yes, those are both good oils, except don't lump Mobil1 0W-30 in with Castrol 0W-30 since M1 0W-30 doesn't meet Euro specs. And just to throw another choice out there, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 looks to be a very impressive oil and is popping up at Advance and Autozone. Although the API SN version is more impressive (especially in regards to evaporation), but it's nowhere to be found (unless Pennzoil changed to oil inside but didn't change the label). There will be a new Pennzoil Ultra Platinum coming out in the Spring so hopefully API SN PUP 5W-40 will be easier to find.

I wouldn't be too concerned about cold starts in your location though. The cold cranking viscosity (the first number on the bottle) is tested at -30C for 5W and -35C for 0W.
:wave:

Yes, go with a Mann.

-Dennis


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

Dennis M said:


> Yes, those are both good oils, except don't lump Mobil1 0W-30 in with Castrol 0W-30 since M1 0W-30 doesn't meet Euro specs. And just to throw another choice out there, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 looks to be a very impressive oil and is popping up at Advance and Autozone. Although the API SN version is more impressive (especially in regards to evaporation), but it's nowhere to be found (unless Pennzoil changed to oil inside but didn't change the label). There will be a new Pennzoil Ultra Platinum coming out in the Spring so hopefully API SN PUP 5W-40 will be easier to find.
> 
> I wouldn't be too concerned about cold starts in your location though. The cold cranking viscosity (the first number on the bottle) is tested at -30C for 5W and -35C for 0W.
> :wave:
> ...


So far the Castrol BC 0W40 has been doing well with these sub -20*C starts this winter!


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## juri (Dec 6, 2013)

German Castrol All the way.


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## dogdog (Jul 26, 2007)

I bet advertisement companies love the suckers that buy into packaging.

All oil manufactured sold in US have this API rating even for aircraft engines. Don't matter what brand what addictive as long as they are meeting certain api standards they are good. That is other than the viscosity rating ie 0-40 1-=30 5-30 5-40 0-999 (if you are special) rating you normally sees. The point is don't just go by the branding or the viscosity rating or some print on the bottle. 

I am sure you can google (api oil rating) better info than this. it's just and example and pretty sure Europe / Asia have their own rating systems and cross equivalents .

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf


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## 2006_A3_2.0T (Jan 11, 2013)

Guys what about the Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 oil?
its rated 502.00, 503.00 and 505.00 
its priced good over here where iam located while others like mobil and liqui moly cost 150 dollars for 5 liters..


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## pt bijou (Mar 15, 2014)

WutupYo said:


> Alright everybody. I think my eyes are about to bleed trying to read through all of this. A lot of terms I don't quite understand, abbreviations throwing me off and what have you, BUT, it seems that going Castrol or Mobil 1 0w-30/0w-40 is a good route to go in a 2.0t, if I've read everything correctly. I like to be able to pick up my oil locally, so it looks like Advanced near me stocks these oils. I am of the mindset of changing my oils based on season. Should I bother running a 0w- oil in the warm seasons? (I live in Virginia Beach, can be in the 90s in the summer, teens in the winter) The reason I am leaning towards the 0W oils is the post a page or two back stating the )W oils of the companies are superior to their 5W counterparts. I would Most like go with a 0W-30 in the winter, but I'm wondering if I should go 5W-30 in the Summer. Here a two links to the Castrol oils I'm looking at at my Advanced.
> 
> http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...l_10148702-p?navigationPath=L1*14926|L2*15035
> 
> ...


These are the oils I use in my Tiguan 2.0 TSI and in my Volvo T5, 0W30 winter and 0W40 in summer. I live in Canada and this past winter was extreme cold and still is today. These oil are ACEA A3 B4 of top quality. My Volvo recommend 0W30 A5 B5 however I cant find it here in Canada. The A3 B4 has to be changed more often than The A5 B5.


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

Ever hear of Pentosin Oil. I did a search on Advance autoparts and the Pentosin 5w30 came up as the Only "exact Fit" for my GTI. Its also $14.00 a Liter


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Pentosin*

Yup, it's OEM, I have their anti freeze check out Autohausaz.com all kinds of everything ya need priced right. I use Total 5/40 and Motul is it the German stuff I just got. In 5 litre jug, perfect fill in my GTI


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Total and Motul*

5 litre jugs at Autohausaz.com it's all VW spec oils, so is Castrol 5/40 matter o fact CASTROL is right on teh fill cap....many meet spec $14/ L is insane, Get Total or Motul or Castrol


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Its not "off the shelf" but some auto parts store do carry it, just no box stores as in Wal-Mart, Autozone etc. BUT Schaeffer oil is the only is the only way to go. Far better base stocks and oil additives in their oil than ANYTHING out there. The only thing I would consider running other than Schaeffer is maybe amsoil or brad penn but they are overpriced.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Wrong on teh buildup 2.0T*

In the u.S. they extended warranty on certain MY 2.0t engines for the buildup in the valves and intake, mine was cleaned out covered by VW new Injectors, valves and manifold cleaned car runs like new. 120,000 warranty now on TSI for that issue on some model years. check engine light is an indication of buildup. they use walnuts shells and blast it all clean, car ran like new..no charge VW didn't make a penny on it. New 2.0t has a 5th injector to combat this issue


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Pentosin*

Is OEM available at Autohausaz.com no shipping no tax. Lots of stuff there for VW. I use Motu, Castrol 5W 40which ever in on sale all meets spec, car is at 99,000 no oil issues ever, ever. My last Jetta GLX went 316,000 glorious miles on not syn oil! VR6 old model


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

CE said:


> Is OEM available at Autohausaz.com no shipping no tax. Lots of stuff there for VW. I use Motu, Castrol 5W 40which ever in on sale all meets spec, car is at 99,000 no oil issues ever, ever. My last Jetta GLX went 316,000 glorious miles on not syn oil! VR6 old model


Usually isn't an issue running the oem castrol 5w40 if your change intervals are short. There are better oils out they're though for the same price, and can help extend change intervals - especially now that vw has extended the oci schedule.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*change intervals*

10K as the book says! I do mostly highway long drives 100s of miles a day....never in 35 + years had an oil related problem never. Even my 27 year old Honda mower when I rebuilt with new rings the crank case inside was spotless! Using just anybodys 10w 40....changed once a year. It's a waste to change oils more than required, now especially with syn, the stuff lasts a long time


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

I have a hard time going more then 5,000 miles on a turbo-charged engine.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*5k turbo*

Had a Bi Turbo 2.7 T Audi A6....TWIN turbo, never had an issue, followed what they recommended why do people assume they know more than the people who mfg the engines? Follow the mfg's recommendations, and things are fine, how do you come up with the conclusion that 10K as VW says is no good, but 5K is the way it should be? Oil changes are like $45 or so, oil and filter, done myself, why would you want to waste money when it's not called for? 99,000 miles or so on current 2010 GTI 2.0T...every 10K....car runs fine. So the mfg would spec 10K to have engine failures, so you don't buy another VW? Makes no sense. 10K is what is in the book! Try it, VW might know how their stuff works..they extended warranty on sludge on valves and intake nothing to do with oil, so they also know when there is a problem...new 2.0T has a 5th F.I across the valves


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

VW Oil changes were always 5,000 miles.....until they started offering Free scheduled maintenance. Then the interval magically went to 10,000 miles. I'll stick to the original interval, before they comped maintenance.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*read the owners manual*

oil change intervals are 10k mile on most newer vw's. UNLESS you drive in dusty areas, make mostly short trips, live where it stays below freezing for extended periods of time, etc. decide for yourself.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*FALSE*

My older VW's had free oil changes back when 7500 changes where the recommended times on non syn oils. imaginations and perceptions are scaarey. Doesn't matter if they offer first few free changes or not, the intervals are based on SCIENCE, FACTS, and improved lubes. It's your money go at it. But in driving over 1mill ion miles so far, never ever had an oil related issue, and always follow the mfg recommendations, I am old enough to have car that mandated 3koil changes back in the 60's. Driveway engineering, is not smarter than the guys who make the engines.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*false what?*



CE said:


> My older VW's had free oil changes back when 7500 changes where the recommended times on non syn oils. imaginations and perceptions are scaarey. Doesn't matter if they offer first few free changes or not, the intervals are based on SCIENCE, FACTS, and improved lubes. It's your money go at it. But in driving over 1mill ion miles so far, never ever had an oil related issue, and always follow the mfg recommendations, I am old enough to have car that mandated 3koil changes back in the 60's. Driveway engineering, is not smarter than the guys who make the engines.


the unless refered to is right from all 3 of my owners manuals.i routinely put 200k miles on my cars and go back to 1000 mile oil changes on a beatle. do as you please, it's your car. where you live and the type of driving you do figure heavily in when you should change your oil


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

There's some strange hostility in this thread :laugh:


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*1000 mile oil changes?!!*



gmikel said:


> the unless refered to is right from all 3 of my owners manuals.i routinely put 200k miles on my cars and go back to 1000 mile oil changes on a beatle. do as you please, it's your car. where you live and the type of driving you do figure heavily in when you should change your oil


No such thing, where do you get these ideas from? I don't understand the logic in throwing money away on un necessary changes....


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

Preppy said:


> There's some strange hostility in this thread :laugh:


how do you answer YOUR PHONE? If you do it wrong do you fall on the floor and cry? Like when one does unnecessary oil changes, think of the humanity, the waste of resources.....if all car owners would follow the recommended intervals, think how many bottles of oil will be saved from excess usage!


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Tiguan SEL*

Not like my GTI, EIBACH springs and sways, it matters but it does it's job have a black on black 2013, replaced a 2009 SEL, also fabulous, no handling like a GTI, but still a nice vehicle...lot looser steering, it's sold to a different crowd!


CE said:


> No such thing, where do you get these ideas from? I don't understand the logic in throwing money away on un necessary changes....


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*yes*



CE said:


> No such thing, where do you get these ideas from? I don't understand the logic in throwing money away on un necessary changes....


that's what an old air cooled 50's beatle called for. don't get upset, as I said you can do what you feel is right.


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## Turqui (Jan 25, 2014)

*Just got a cc and have a few oil questions please.*

I just got a 2012 vw cc with 38k miles, this car its still unter factory warranty for power train; so i have the following question:
I want to start fresh with an oil change; i like to use the mobil 1 full syntethic, obviously at wall mart its much cheaper than the dealer, so in order to mantain the warranty should i do the sacrifice and have the dealer perform the oil changes?

What type of syntethic oil its recomended ? Mobil 1 ok? I live in florida, so its 5-30 ok? can i get the filter at any auto parts store?
Thanks for your advices.


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## 2006_A3_2.0T (Jan 11, 2013)

Guys, I use mobil 1 0w40 every 5000 miles.
it has 155k miles.

The other oil available is LiquMoly top tec 4200 5w30.

Conditions: dusty city, small short trips, mild to hight temps, and LOTS of oil consumption.

Should I stick with mobil and the 5k oil changes?

Or should I relax and go 10k intervals?

Is that LM better than mobil?

Thanks, great discussion of a common topic.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Schaeffer oil. End of thread.


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## SandCastle (Sep 10, 2013)

animaniac said:


> ....The problem is vw knows how to make money and they know if the parts fail outside of the warranty your going to replace the parts yourself or let a dealer or garage do it, either way they make money, times this by thousands of golfs and then by the other vag cars which use theses parts, not only this part may have been made to fail early but other parts aswell, but it's very very very hard to prove the manufacturer has designed it like this intentionaly.
> 
> No wonder vw makes hundreds of billions.....


For years VW has lost big money in the US. Even today they don't have high customer loyalty. Poor dealerships, crappy durability, embarrassing design screw-ups continue to haunt them. It's true VW makes good money on a worldwide basis, but I guess that's because the rest of the world has a greater willingness to put up with substandard quality. Bottom line is that there is no conspiracy at VW to deliberately design poorly and hope to offset losses with profits on repairs. That's the fast route to bankruptcy. Rather, VW is, at times, surprisingly incompetent technically. Of course they sometimes produce great stuff, too.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

read this whole thread and losts of face palms and smh


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## 2006_A3_2.0T (Jan 11, 2013)

Humb1e said:


> read this whole thread and losts of face palms and smh


true, just use Mobil 1 0w40 and keep the oil level at the top. change every 5000 miles to be on the safe side.

/thread


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

Well, Schaeffer's isn't off-the-shelf, so facepalm there. Mobil 1 has wear issues, and is less-than ideal for "race" applications.

I'd have to say, although there are a few good 5w-40 available otc but, I don't like Castrol or SynPower 5w-40. Rotella is good, but I now see Chevron Delo 5w-40 at Wal*Mart, which I have to say is a KILLER oil. There is also the Mobil 1/ Delvac 5w-40 "Truck N SUV" at W*M too, you just have to look in the truck oil section. Located in that section also is the diesel HD 10w-30 semi syns, esp Motorcraft, Delo and Rotella may be the best oils for non-turbos. Kendall GT-1 5w-40 exists somewhere otc, might have VW 502.

Aside from 5w-40s, German Syntec 0w-30 from AutoZone has to be ~the best~, PepBoys has it now too.


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

T Dog said:


> Aside from 5w-40s, German Syntec 0w-30 from AutoZone has to be ~the best~, PepBoys has it now too.


Belgian Castrol Syntec 0W40 is showing good results too.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

T Dog said:


> Well, Schaeffer's isn't off-the-shelf, so facepalm there. Mobil 1 has wear issues, and is less-than ideal for "race" applications.
> 
> I'd have to say, although there are a few good 5w-40 available otc but, I don't like Castrol or SynPower 5w-40. Rotella is good, but I now see Chevron Delo 5w-40 at Wal*Mart, which I have to say is a KILLER oil. There is also the Mobil 1/ Delvac 5w-40 "Truck N SUV" at W*M too, you just have to look in the truck oil section. Located in that section also is the diesel HD 10w-30 semi syns, esp Motorcraft, Delo and Rotella may be the best oils for non-turbos. Kendall GT-1 5w-40 exists somewhere otc, might have VW 502.
> 
> Aside from 5w-40s, German Syntec 0w-30 from AutoZone has to be ~the best~, PepBoys has it now too.


Meh..I myself have my own account for my buddies and I because that's all we use around where I live. But its is also sold at 3 of the local parts stores. So that is technically "off the shelf."


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

T Dog said:


> Mobil 1 has wear issues, and is less-than ideal for "race" applications.


Both of these statements are not true. Care to back this up with some facts and data?

-Dennis


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

Mobil 1 is group 3 oil and not a true synthetic oil. Only true synthetic oils are Group 4 oils. Mobil 1 can not be labeled and sold in Europe because of this, as Europe has strikter standards for labeling an Oil as Full Synthetic. The German Castrol, from Germany is one of the only Store Brands that is a true Group 4 synthetic.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

vwbrvr6 said:


> Mobil 1 is group 3 oil and not a true synthetic oil. Only true synthetic oils are Group 4 oils. Mobil 1 can not be labeled and sold in Europe because of this, as Europe has strikter standards for labeling an Oil as Full Synthetic. The German Castrol, from Germany is one of the only Store Brands that is a true Group 4 synthetic.


False false false (coming from a CLS "certified lubricant specialist")


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

vwbrvr6 said:


> Mobil 1 is group 3 oil and not a true synthetic oil. Only true synthetic oils are Group 4 oils. Mobil 1 can not be labeled and sold in Europe because of this, as Europe has strikter standards for labeling an Oil as Full Synthetic. The German Castrol, from Germany is one of the only Store Brands that is a true Group 4 synthetic.


Who cares? Base stocks do not tell you anything about the _performance_ of oil. It is more about the overall lubricant package and whether or not an oil meets the required specs. 

Mobil 1 0W-40 meets or exceeds the requirements of: 
API SN, SM, SL, SJ	
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4	
Nissan GT-R	

Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builder approvals: 
MB-Approval 229.3	
MB-Approval 229.5	
BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01	
VW 502 00/505 00	
PORSCHE A40	

Just take a look at all of the outstanding uoa's on Mobil1 0W-40 posted at various web sites (like bobistheoilguy.com). Actually, _you_ do not know what base stocks XOM uses in Mobil1 0W-40 anyway. Across their entire range, they do use their proprietary Group III called Visom (I believe this was the first Group III used to develop a 0W oil), they use Group IV PAO's, and they also use Group V alkylated naphthalene and esters. 
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-English/productsservices/synthetic-basestocks.aspx
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Does_Mobil_1_Contain_Ester_Oil.aspx

They just don't tell you which base stocks are used in which oils.

These days a 100% anything base stock is very rare anyway. Most companies blend different synthetic base stocks. The original German Castrol green formula was proven to be Group IV, although the oil was reformulated soon after so anything after that is just a guess. When an oil is made in Germany for the N. American market, their laws do not apply. Also, GC is now Belgian Castrol anyway. Rotella T6 5W-40 is another excellent Group III based oil. 

-Dennis


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Base stocks are what makes a good oil. You can not have a good oil using a crap base stock.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Humb1e said:


> Base stocks are what makes a good oil. You can not have a good oil using a crap base stock.



There's really no such thing as a crap base stock. Perhaps a crap finished product. Are the Group II's used in Schaeffer Supreme 7000 crap? Hardly.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Well its not a bad base stock but schaeffer has the best additive package out there. And the 7000, which is semi synthetic out performs most full synthetic oils. And the schaeffer 9000 full synthetic uses a PAO base stock..which is the best you can get.


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## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Humb1e said:


> Well its not a bad base stock but schaeffer has the best additive package out there. And the 7000, which is semi synthetic out performs most full synthetic oils. And the schaeffer 9000 full synthetic *uses a PAO base stock*..which is the best you can get.


So does the $22 a jug Esso Xtra XD-3 0w40 found in every Walmart. Put 600,000kms on my old ALH with that oil... Great stuff. It's too bad the only way for me to get it now is via a Esso fuel depot.

/mindblown.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Yeah and that oil is garbage.


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## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Humb1e said:


> Yeah and that oil is garbage.


Who knew one Group IV PAO full syn was so much better then another? Must be the Schaeffer's Advantage.

:facepalm::facepalm:


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Who knew one Group IV PAO full syn was so much better then another? Must be the Schaeffer's Advantage.
> 
> :facepalm::facepalm:


Than*

If you had knowledge of oil and what makes a good oil better than others you would understand bud.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

MXTHOR3 said:


> So does the $22 a jug Esso Xtra XD-3 0w40 found in every Walmart. Put 600,000kms on my old ALH with that oil... Great stuff. It's too bad the only way for me to get it now is via a Esso fuel depot.
> 
> /mindblown.


600km...bfd. Just think about the fuel savings and the cost in oil you would have saved by doing less drain intervals if you would have ran schaeffer oil.


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## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Humb1e said:


> 600km...bfd. Just think about the fuel savings and the cost in oil you would have saved by doing less drain intervals if you would have ran schaeffer oil.


Uh, 25k OCI's with the Esso their chief  Keep gargling the Shaeffer balls though it's doing wonders for you.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

A guy I know personally did 25k MILE drain intervals with a 5.3L vortec.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Bought the truck new and sold it with 390k miles and ran like and top and that was with semi-syn oil.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

And ik another sales rep with also a gas pick up running 30k miles. Ill let u chew on that for a few.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Humb1e said:


> And the schaeffer 9000 full synthetic uses a PAO base stock..which is the best you can get.


Care to back that statement up with some facts??

I would argue that ester base stocks are the best that you can get. But don't take my word for it. Take it from someone that works with esters:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272


Group III's, and especially the new Gas To Liquid base stocks from Shell match or outperform PAO's. Yep, better NOACK volatility than POE/PAO based Red Line with crap Group III base stocks. :laugh:

Welcome to the 21st century!! :laugh:



> Historically, polyalphaolefins (PAOs) have had superior performance characteristics such as viscosity index (VI), pour point, volatility and oxidation stability that could not be achieved with conventional mineral oils. With modern base oil manufacturing, VI, pour point, volatility and oxidation stability all can be independently controlled.
> 
> *A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance.* Some of the key measures for finished lubricant performance where Group III must compete with Group IV include:
> 
> ...


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends

You should really keep an open mind about oil.

opcorn:


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Well im sorry schaeffer does actually have ester base stocks in their full synthetic...pao in the 7000 just verified with a CLS.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

So I was right in that the schaeffer full synthetic has the best base stocks. Just said the wrong term.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Humb1e said:


> Well im sorry schaeffer does actually have ester base stocks in their full synthetic...pao in the 7000 just verified with a CLS.


 

Schaffer's themselves says a blend of Group IV and Group III. No esters in the Full Synthetic 9000.


> Supreme 9000™ is blended from a unique combination of polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base fluids and severely hydrocracked synthetic base fluids.


http://www.schaefferoil.com/supreme-9000-engine-oil.html


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

I talked to a CLS who is a schaeffer sales rep. There are ester base stocks in some of their oils.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

There's really no bad oils, with the exception of no-name brands. If you're changing at 5000mi, there's not much to be gained with one or the other. All we can do is optimize our choices and our applications. That is, synthetic in turbos or if going for longer 10k intervals. Make your oil not to thick nor too thin for the climate and state of tune. imo, Mobil 1 5w-30 does not have the guts that other products do, Pennzoil Platinum is a far better choice in a light 30.

I'm personally impressed by Quaker States Defy Hi-Miles line that uses the older API SL spec limit for additive levels. Also, PZ High Mileage, with a HT/HS of 4.0 in the 10w-40. I'd take these over VW502 or common 5w-40 like Syntec.

However, I'd be happy to give Castrol 0w-40 a shot, WalMart has is now. Since I'm changing at 5k anyway, it's nbd.


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## Bozzimus (Sep 2, 2013)

T Dog said:


> Aside from 5w-40s, German Syntec 0w-30 from AutoZone has to be ~the best~, PepBoys has it now too.





Preppy said:


> Belgian Castrol Syntec 0W40 is showing good results too.


From what I gather, German Castrol 0W-30 is no longer available -- or is in the process of being phased out. Its replacement appears to be Belgian Castrol (weight unknown to me, possibly 0W-40 as Preppy mentions, above).

I'd like to hear from some of you, if you can still find German Castrol...

Last time I checked, my AutoZone did not carry either one anymore (!). Anyway, I do not know if Belgian Castrol is exactly the same as the wonderful German Castrol (GC) we had for many years.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

Newer German Syntec still seems t be a featured product at AutoZone and PepBoys here.

As far as API ratings (for additive levels) 40+ weights are not bound to the lower amounts. So when we have a Xw-40 SM/SN, API allows higher additive levels than a 30 weight, so Syntec 0w-40 may be a blessing vs GC 0w-30. As far as M1 0w-40, it's a fine product, on the thin side, no too different than a 5w-30 really. It's ideal for German engines that are still tight (no burning) and provides a lil more visc buffer than 5w-30, neither of which would be my go-to oil when temps are an issue.

For instance:

High Temp-High Shear ratings: (a visc measurement at +150C)

M1 5w-30 2.9cP

M1 0w-40 3.5cP

German Syntec 0w-30 3.5cP

Pennzoil HM 10w-40 4.0cP

M1 Hi-Miles 5w-30 3.3cP

And so on. That's the visc to concern yourself with, +150C HT/HS


However, tight 2.0TSI and a few others (driver dependent) can run on light 30 weight. I have done it in my APR 2.0T with very low wear UOAs.

Your best synthetic OTC oil is/was Pennzoil Ultra if you are talking light 30s. German Syntec for thick 30s/light 40s, and the 5w-40 I'd reach for is Chevron Delo, my WalMart has it, cheap too.

PZ/QS or Havoline make great dino oils, lots of moly and boron. Mobil and Castrol both have a similar sodium additive pack that I don't care for.


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## Bozzimus (Sep 2, 2013)

T Dog said:


> Newer German Syntec still seems t be a featured product at AutoZone and PepBoys here.


We don't have "PepBoys" here, but last time I checked our Autozones, they only carried Made in USA Castrol. I'll check them again. I saw no "Made in Belgium" or "Made in Germany" anymore. When I bought oil in January 2014, I was able to buy "Made in Germany" Castrol 0W-30 at AutoZone. 

You mention Pennzoil. Pennzoil Euro Ultra 0W-40, if such an animal exists, would definitely be my next oil if I am unable to locate GC. I don't think such a thing exists, but I'll be doing research in that direction soon.

M1 0W-40 would be fine, but from what I gather, shearing is an issue with that oil in DI turbo engines. Plus the reported rapid loss of TBN in these engines concerns me. I guess it should not be concerned, since I'm doing 5,000 mi intervals anyway.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

That's it, Mobil 1 doesn't handle fuel dilution very well. This is a problem with our rich tune for low Nox in USA. 

As I was saying, high HT/HS for off-the-shelf 30 weights, 3.3cP, plus seal conditioners...

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054930_201202271141.pdf

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/message...4855_key_140007079157_201203220840-312312.pdf


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Syn oils*

Autohausaz.com has Some Liqui moly and Total stuff works great 5 liter jugs perfect for a change in my GTI 107,000 perfection, if it meets spec it is fine. Total, Castrol, Pentosin.Liqui Moly, so many oils meet spec. all good...nit picking on oils is just a waste of energy. I think teh dealer uses Castrol or Pennzoil


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

There's plenty of instances where spec oil at spec intervals caused engine problems. 

No need to mail-order for oil when WalMart has M1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40, other VW/A3 oils, plus dozens of A5 oils, diesel 15w-40, 10w-30 and 5w-40 synth diesel oils...even "dino" oils that are perfect for many VWs, not every car has a 2.0T. The oils we get in USA are products that you CANNOT GET in Europe. Do you really think Rotella 5w-40 is an inferior product that could not meet 502 if it was tested against it? lol. You realize VW spec is simply a PAID $500k licence to sell a finished product? Oil companies seek out the mfg licence, not the other way around. Sheesh.

VW spec usually means an OLD formula...

HD oils update specs and formulas constantly. Additives newer and better like boron, overbase calcium, sodium, antimony and even titanium are available outside "spec" oils. Look over the Kendall line, the only one w/o titanium is the VW spec 5w-40. 

















I tested engine wear on 5w-30 Edge Titanium & Mobil 1 0w-30, so I've done my homework. 

Arctic climate, 5w-40 will suck. Desert, 0w-40 may burn off like crazy....but they are "spec oils".

Rollin' in and declaring VW 502 spec oil from 1998 to be the only way to go is relying a vastly uninformed premise.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

T Dog said:


> That's it, Mobil 1 doesn't handle fuel dilution very well.


Really? Please provide some evidence of this. Or are you simply saying that regular GF5/Resource Conserving Mobil1 5W-30 (as well as *any* GF5 xW-30) doesn't handle fuel dilution very well?


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Bozzimus said:


> We don't have "PepBoys" here, but last time I checked our Autozones, they only carried Made in USA Castrol. I'll check them again. I saw no "Made in Belgium" or "Made in Germany" anymore. When I bought oil in January 2014, I was able to buy "Made in Germany" Castrol 0W-30 at AutoZone.
> 
> You mention Pennzoil. Pennzoil Euro Ultra 0W-40, if such an animal exists, would definitely be my next oil if I am unable to locate GC. I don't think such a thing exists, but I'll be doing research in that direction soon.
> 
> M1 0W-40 would be fine, but from what I gather, shearing is an issue with that oil in DI turbo engines. Plus the reported rapid loss of TBN in these engines concerns me. I guess it should not be concerned, since I'm doing 5,000 mi intervals anyway.


The API SN version of M1 0W-40 has been shown in uoa's to be more stable in regards to viscosity retention than the old API SM version. Regardless, _any_ light xW-40 can shear to a 30 grade as well and you can find uoa's at bobistheoilguy. PU 0W-40 (if you can find it) and PU 5W-40 are also light 40 grades.

Euro Castrol 0W-40 is now available at Wal-Mart.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Edge-Syntec-0W40-Motor-Oil-5-Quart/35931146


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

Add Tri-molecular moly and the new cat-friendly zink to stuff that 502 spec oils ain't got. GTL base oil is a game changer too.

It looks like the local oil dist has the kendall Ti line, Euro line of 5w-30 and 5w-40....same for Mobil 1 ESP, TDT and real Delvac-1 5w-40, plus the Shell PZ Ultra line again 5w-40 and 5w-30, iirc I saw 0w-40 in there somewhere, maybe in the Rotella synth line. It's a candyland.

Some free shipping offers too...


http://www.petroleumservicecompany.com/full-synthetic-passenger-car-engine-oils.html


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*VW Spec*

Liquid Titanium really, and please explain the real science behind your claims that what one mfg does versus another means anything, when it comes to proper engine operation. How do they keep the element Titanium liquid? And the SAE weights shown are not what the 2.0t requires, it wants 5W-40...Wal-Mart gives me a rash, can't go to WalMart. Waste of time, order stuff online, I have other things to do, rather than go to the walMart scaaaarey place....If the oil doesn't meet VW spec, I don't use it, I guess it's all just made up? What facts do you have based on chemistry that one oil over another that both meet spec is of any relavance. my last Jetta VR6 went 316,000 and it didn't require syn, 2.0T does. Castrol, Total, LuquiMoly what ever one is cheaper by the 5L jug, all meet spec, engine runs fine 108,000 miles, all good. Marketing is an amazing brain washer.


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## joema (Jul 25, 2002)

T Dog said:


> There's plenty of instances where spec oil at spec intervals caused engine problems...


This is correct. Spec oil and spec intervals are broad, generic recommendations that do not account for the wide variety of environmental conditions, driving styles, gasoline formulations, etc. 

I just had Dyson Analysis done on the factory fill oil in my Mk7 GTI. It was changed at 2,889 miles. Dyson said various parameters indicated the oil was already at its life limit and changing it was a good idea. He also said under optimal conditions with the right oil going to 10,000 miles is possible, at least after the initial change.

This matches results I've had from oil analysis on previous vehicles. Sometimes you can approach the manufacturer-recommended change interval. Other times even 1/2 of that is too far. You just never know because it varies based on so many things. The only way to know for sure is doing oil analysis and professional interpretation.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

joema said:


> This is correct. Spec oil and spec intervals are broad, generic recommendations that do not account for the wide variety of environmental conditions, driving styles, gasoline formulations, etc.
> 
> I just had Dyson Analysis done on the factory fill oil in my Mk7 GTI. It was changed at 2,889 miles. Dyson said various parameters indicated the oil was already at its life limit and changing it was a good idea. He also said under optimal conditions with the right oil going to 10,000 miles is possible, at least after the initial change.
> 
> This matches results I've had from oil analysis on previous vehicles. Sometimes you can approach the manufacturer-recommended change interval. Other times even 1/2 of that is too far. You just never know because it varies based on so many things. The only way to know for sure is doing oil analysis and professional interpretation.


So teh mfg wouldn't understand varing circumstances? THEY only build cars for the entire world, what would VW know? How do driveway engineers always know more than the mfg? so VW doesn't test under different conditions? so when they spec an oil, they just guess? Amazing...they would have a lot of issues if this where true. I have driven well over 1 million+ miles in lots of different cars, lots of crap GM, and lots of great V 11-12 at last count on VW's NEVER ever had an oil related problem, ever, using what the mfg says to change th eoil and what to use. I think, even GM, knows what oils to use, and they build the most scrap metal in the world. So on all of my VW's whatever they say is the interval, has been perfect, it's your money, squander it on useless better oils and changes, it's just dopey. Every car I ever had 100,000's of miles, no oild issues, ever since 1972


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## joema (Jul 25, 2002)

CE said:


> So teh mfg wouldn't understand varing circumstances? THEY only build cars for the entire world, what would VW know? How do driveway engineers always know more than the mfg? so VW doesn't test under different conditions? so when they spec an oil, they just guess?...


This was determined by professional analysis by one of the world's most experienced lubrication engineers (Terry Dyson). His knowledge of engine lubrication is vastly beyond the average VW engineer. Specific professional analysis of an individual vehicle trumps any generic recommendation from the manufacturer. 

When you're deathly sick would you trust the opinion of a general practitioner over a specialist who spent his professional career studying your exact situation?



CE said:


> ...on all of my VW's whatever they say is the interval, has been perfect, it's your money, squander it on useless better oils and changes, it's just dopey...


Regarding whatever they (VW) says, the VW GTI manual says says you should change your oil more frequently than 10k miles if you do **ANY** of the following:

- Driving short distances
- Driving in stop-and-go traffic
- Driving in below freezing temperatures for extended periods

If you NEVER do ANY of those or any other "severe service" applications, and use high quality oil, you can probably go 10k miles. You're right it's important to know what VW says.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*OIL and all the hype*



joema said:


> This was determined by professional analysis by one of the world's most experienced lubrication engineers (Terry Dyson). His knowledge of engine lubrication is vastly beyond the average VW engineer. Specific professional analysis of an individual vehicle trumps any generic recommendation from the manufacturer.
> 
> When you're deathly sick would you trust the opinion of a general practitioner over a specialist who spent his professional career studying your exact situation?
> 
> ...


So car mfgs don't have oil experts, all the experts are always outside the company right? hmmm, now that's really illogical. So the car mfg builds the products, warrants the product, and wants the product to function like they sell it to do, yet they don't know their product? The guy outside knows more. Yup, that's sound thinking. And the oil mfgs themselves of course don't work with the car makers to determine what's correct. But some lone guy knows better. Advertizing has got you really confused. And many times GP in medical, knows more since they have a vast knowledge of everything, not limited to one body part.... Ya can be TOO specialized that ya can't see past your nose. Terry is of course the oil answer, how do you know the VW oil guys are AVERAGE? You have way too many assumptions. How many millions of engines do car makers make all use OIL, would think that gives them quite an experience, in what goes on. And of course each brand has their own better buzz term, Castrol is not oil, it's liquid engineering! And Kendall is the other greatest buzz term....Same goes for tires, gasolines, etc. Of course they don't work with the engine designers and mfgs, only some lone "expert" knows all.


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

CE said:


> at last count on VW's NEVER ever had an oil related problem, ever, using what the mfg says to change th eoil and what to use.



I guess you forgot about the oil coking issue on the 1.8t's?


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*oil problems*



vwbrvr6 said:


> I guess you forgot about the oil coking issue on the 1.8t's?


I never had oil related issues on 11-12 VW Audi products, I didn't have a problem on the 1.8t golf either.


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## joema (Jul 25, 2002)

CE said:


> So car mfgs don't have oil experts, all the experts are always outside the company right?...So the car mfg builds the products...yet they don't know their product?...But some lone guy knows better....How many millions of engines do car makers make all use OIL, would think that gives them quite an experience, in what goes on....


VW has oil experts but that engineering knowledge is filtered, simplified and generalized before going into the owner's manual. It is a broad, sweeping generalization. There's no guarantee that following that general advice is optimal for your specific car, driving pattern and environmental conditions.

This is proved by myself and many others who have had oil analysis and professional interpretation done on many vehicles. Sometimes that analysis shows you can reach the manufacturer's oil change interval. Other times you cannot -- even 1/2 the recommended change interval can be dangerous. You just never know without specific analysis on your exact car. On my Mk7 GTI, analysis showed the factory fill oil was depleted after only 2,889 miles.

You are taking generic advice from an owner's manual and attributing to it omniscient knowledge, as if it were guaranteed to be correct for every single unique case. 

This is like reading a magazine article with general health advice and trusting that over actual blood tests run on your body by a specialist. One is a general statement. The other is a specific test on your specific situation.

Regarding making millions of engines, this means little. VW has absolutely no mechanism to obtain and track oil analysis across their in-use vehicle fleet. They have little quality data except for the limited amount gathered on a very small test fleet during development. It's likely that 3rd party oil analysis firms have more quality lubrication data on production vehicles than the manufacturer does. So it's not a "lone guy", but many different professional tribologists and lubrication engineers.

These professional lubrication engineers are not saying VW's general recommendations re change interval are always wrong. Those recommendations or generally correct under optimal conditions: no stop-and-go traffic, no short distance trips, no mods on car, etc. However specific analysis on specific vehicles often indicates a need for more frequent oil changes, different oil formulations, etc.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

Again, VW 502 is a rather meager spec. It's sequence includes cold-cranking and mpg stipulations. If that's the kind of thing you're worried about....that's what spec oil is for. otoh, 5w-30 gives both of these features to a higher degree than a 5w-40. Is it wear that you're concerned with? I ran UOAs on Edge Titanium 5w-30 and old Mobil 1 0w-30 SL. guess what, my 2.0 TSI wear was equal or lower than Euro 5w-40 like Motul, et al. Begging the fact that it was winter, and I did a lot of short-trip driving, the thinner oil was a BENEFIT. Toss a q of 5w-40 in the freezer and tell me how well it will circulate in a +10f engine, lubing the turbo in particular. Try it again with 5w-30.


IF you want the mpg and cold starting benefit of 5w-30, you have the ACEA A5 generic Euro spec to tell you that A5 is equal to A3 in all areas inc engine deposits, just thinner. A3 is what VW 502 is based on, but VW adds the mpg and cold cranking, so other 40 weights don't meet 502, but do meet A3. Every 30 weight synth otc carries A5. So, if you want PZ Ultra 5w-30, Edge, etc....it *is* the best otc oil. 5w-40 is great if you have a overly hot engine condition, VW builds a safety buffer into the 3.5cP A3/502 spec, for AutoBahn driving or mountain climbing. Normal driving, it's just unnecessary visc bogging everything down. Maybe this is why the new VW 504 oils are all 5w-30.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

CE said:


> So car mfgs don't have oil experts, all the experts are always outside the company right? hmmm, now that's really illogical. Of course they don't work with the engine designers and mfgs, only some lone "expert" knows all.



Oui, the experts are outside the mfg....

http://www.acea.be/industry-topics/tag/category/oils-lubricants


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

CE said:


> I never had oil related issues on 11-12 VW Audi products, I didn't have a problem on the 1.8t golf either.


It was a huge issue on the early 2000's 1.8t's, and VW ended up having to change their oil recommendations.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

502 wasn't "updated" until 2004, iirc. A 10 year-old spec that started in 1998.

https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html


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## Bozzimus (Sep 2, 2013)

Dennis M said:


> The API SN version of M1 0W-40 has been shown in uoa's to be more stable in regards to viscosity retention than the old API SM version. Regardless, _any_ light xW-40 can shear to a 30 grade as well and you can find uoa's at bobistheoilguy. PU 0W-40 (if you can find it) and PU 5W-40 are also light 40 grades.
> 
> Euro Castrol 0W-40 is now available at Wal-Mart.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Edge-Syntec-0W40-Motor-Oil-5-Quart/35931146



Went into Wal-Mart today, and found some interesting things:
1. their Mobil 1 oils were all API SM. I could find no SN Mobil 1...hopefully that will change soon
2. they had Castrol 0W-40 in 1 quart bottles only, BUT it was the Made in Germany stuff, not Belgium, which surprised me a bit

I'm in the sticks so I'm sure eventually we'll get SN Mobil 1, and maybe even the 5 qt jugs of Castrol 0W-40...


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

i and most of my friends with similar engine mods used to run 5-30 Mobil 1 Esp formula here in Europe. I am refering to Greek weather conditions and especially south Greece where the winter we get say 5 degrees Celcius sometimes.

Since i upgraded my engines internals i moved into a thicker oil. The Red line 5-40. Now i am a bit skeptical if i should stick to a 5-40 oil or go back to the 5-30.

I rarely drive in cold weather and my car is a weekend car nowadays. Am i right thinking that the 5-40 oil is what i should be using due to the forged engine internals? I expect to have a higher oil pressure at idle etc with the 5-40 or am i wrong?

What are your thoughts?


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

How about this new penzoil platinum oil. Supposed to be made from natural gas? Whats that all about? It's on sale at walmart was thinking about trying it out.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

In hot weather, 5w-40 is the way to go. If your fuel quaity in Greece is an unknown, I would NOT use an ESP or low saps oil, they are intended to work with primo Euro fuels, even our USA fuel causes problems with low additive oil. Stay w/ VW 502, not 504 that claims 502 compatibility.....it simply doesn't not TAKE INTO ACCOUNT SULPHUR AND ETHANOL FUELS!


I just picked up 2 jugs of the new GTL Pennzoil Platinum. The 10w-30 reports a NOWACK volitility of 4.5%, which is crazy low. Perfect for DI and the oil mist deposits we get on the valves. There is a $10 rebate now, so walmart jugs come out to $12/5q, which is embarrasing toward our foreign friends. It's an ACEA A5 oil, same as A3/VW502....just thinner. Great in cold, short trip driving, mpg and unless you have a massive fuel dilution problem, plenty of visc for low wear.


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

I think I might make the switch, it's time for an oil change this weekend.....10w30 though in the GTI?? I thought we needed a 0W. Well that number is for Cold flow, so in my case my location it shouldn't matter if I use a 10w right?

And 30 is to thin no? Shouldn't it be a 40?


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## vwbrvr6 (Jul 31, 2002)

Well I really wanted to try the Penzoil Platinum However I went to a few stores and the closest I can find to my spec in the jugs was 10w30. It does not meet any spec close Vw's I could not even find it meeting an ACEA spec, not mercedes or BMW so I just couldn't bring myself to getting it. I did however find Penzoil Ultra 5w40 at advance auto, that did meet all of the german specs. However at $10.00 a quart I thought it was a bit pricy. I ended up finding German Castrol 0w40 at Walmart on sale for 21 bucks for a 5 quart jug so I went with that. Interestingly this is made in Germany. I read back in this thread saying it was now made in Belgium but I did not find that. I have a suspicion that this is the same as the old 0w30 GC many loved, It was said that the 0w30 GC was actually a 40 so maybe they are re-labeling it now? I'm hoping Walmart will someday get in the Penzoil Ultra 5w40 at a good price or it going onsale. From what I have read the platinum is going to be discontinued, and the Ultra will take its spot.


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

vwbrvr6 said:


> Well I really wanted to try the Penzoil Platinum However I went to a few stores and the closest I can find to my spec in the jugs was 10w30. It does not meet any spec close Vw's I could not even find it meeting an ACEA spec, not mercedes or BMW so I just couldn't bring myself to getting it. I did however find Penzoil Ultra 5w40 at advance auto, that did meet all of the german specs. However at $10.00 a quart I thought it was a bit pricy. I ended up finding German Castrol 0w40 at Walmart on sale for 21 bucks for a 5 quart jug so I went with that. Interestingly this is made in Germany. I read back in this thread saying it was now made in Belgium but I did not find that. I have a suspicion that this is the same as the old 0w30 GC many loved, It was said that the 0w30 GC was actually a 40 so maybe they are re-labeling it now? I'm hoping Walmart will someday get in the Penzoil Ultra 5w40 at a good price or it going onsale. From what I have read the platinum is going to be discontinued, and the Ultra will take its spot.


Pretty sure that it _is_ the Belgian 0w-40. IIRC, Castrol simply moved production to Germany.
My car did not really like the Penzoil Platinum (got it on sale). It made a noticeable amount more noise than it does with 0w-40 M1, and it burned a bit quicker.


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## T Dog (May 22, 2014)

Additive spec levels are higher for a 40 weight than for a 30 weight, so that might be why Castrol features a 40 weight product in USA where API dictates this stuff. Remember German Syntec 0w-30 was an older API SL spec, I'm pretty sure the WM stuff is SM or SN spec. Somewhere in there decodes how the product is built. Remember, Euro oils are going to low additives, which is not formulated to go with our USA gas.

As for 30 weights, I did UOAs with Edge Ti 5w-30 and M1 0w-30 SL, they both came out with very low wear, lower than Euro 5w-40s like Motul (in my 2.0TSI w/APR) . Some of the cheap otc 30 weights have higher HT/HS, 3.2 for QS Defy and PZ Hi-Miles. PZ HiMI in my Q5 3.2 and Defy in my Porsche. 

Don't forget there are HD diesel 5w-40s like Rotella and Delo and thick 10w-30 HD semi syn too, which is killer for any non-turbos. I routinely mix dino or HM 10w-40 and 30 weight to suit my needs, 2-3q of 40 weight and then filled with 30. I just got 2 jugs of PZ Platinum 5w-30 GTL and will simply add 5w-40 QS, with the same boron & moly additive pack.


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