# I want to flash my ECU



## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

I was just wondering what is the best software out there? What program gives you the best "bang for the buck"? APR, GIAC, C2???


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

C2 but if you got the money, I would go APR.


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

c2 hands down...have heard only great reviews... why pay more for apr?


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (youngkal)*

I've had GIAC on my sig as something I wanted to do soon, but I read they are not doing this anymore or gave up on it? What's going on?
C2 the way to go?


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## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*FV-QR*

C2 is awesome. Especially for the price.


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

i get c2 flash next saturday will give a review


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (youngkal)*

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think C2 is actually $50 more than APR (at least if you get it from NGP). Also, I believe AWE offers free lifetime upgrades for their GIAC flashing if you buy it from them. 
(youngkal)- I think we would all appreciate the C2 review. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks ahead of time


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (BlackRab08)*

Oops, I just checked NGP's website and it is the other way around. APR is $50 more than C2. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GrkPranksta69 (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: (BlackRab08)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_ Also, I believe AWE offers free lifetime upgrades for their GIAC flashing if you buy it from them. 

From what I've heard is that GIAC hasnt done any updates for the 2.5 chip in a while.


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## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_I was just wondering what is the best software out there? What program gives you the best "bang for the buck"? APR, GIAC, C2???


and I just noticed. if you wouldve went to APtuning right there in Lebanon the day before easter i think it was, you could have gotten C2 at a discounted price, free install, and dyno for half off the dyno day price. for the chip install and dyno I spent i think 295 or so.


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## 07bunny (Nov 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (blackhawk 76)*

i have revo and it is just as compareable to the other companies. plus if you buy the select plus you get to mess around with your fuel ratio and your timing to be able to make more then the other chips plus the boost setting for the controler is the throttle response for us which cuts out the cost of the chip+ controller+ sprint booster (giac) if you planned on doing so.


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (07bunny)*

Wow 295 is a hell of a price. It's too bad I missed out on that deal.







As for the Revo, what kind of power gains do you get and how much does it cost?


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## BlixaBargeld (May 5, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (BlackRab08)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_Wow 295 is a hell of a price. It's too bad I missed out on that deal.







As for the Revo, what kind of power gains do you get and how much does it cost?

Isn't C2 sold for 299?
BTW C2 seems to be the only company offering a 87 octane tune. The premium you pay at the pump for 91/93 is imo not with the extra 20c a gallon for a couple of extra hp (compared to 87 tune).


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

for $600... APR gives you lockout feature so the dealer can only see the stock program... and 3 other programs (choice from 91,93, 100, valet) also has anti-theft where you have to enter a code to start the car. 
I havent tried C2 so i cant honestly compare the two... but APR is so reliable some dealers are offering flashing now. This and the various options is what sold me.


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## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlixaBargeld* »_
Isn't C2 sold for 299?
BTW C2 seems to be the only company offering a 87 octane tune. The premium you pay at the pump for 91/93 is imo not with the extra 20c a gallon for a couple of extra hp (compared to 87 tune).


Dyno day special. 10% off, free install.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_I've had GIAC on my sig as something I wanted to do soon, but I read they are not doing this anymore or gave up on it?

This certainly isn't the case; GIAC certainly hasn't "stopped" doing any software, or "given up" on any chassis/engine community, and never has either! We are working directly with GIAC on a possible update to the software at the moment as well http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

The majority here says go with C2, but I really like the idea of free updates with the GIAC, but is it really worth the extra money? I plan on getting a eurojet exhaust before I get the flash, so does anyone know which software will net me the most gains in hp and tq considering the mods I have already? (check my sig) 


_Modified by BlackRab08 at 6:51 PM 5-12-2009_


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## Tvp125 (Mar 4, 2008)

I am flashed with Revo and i love it.


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## CaTiRo (Sep 23, 2008)

i'm planning to go apr.


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## darkorb (Jul 29, 2008)

C2 for $300 wow thats a good deal
APR is $650 or so IIRC


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: (darkorb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darkorb* »_C2 for $300 wow thats a good deal
APR is $*650 *or so IIRC

$599
APR is for 5 programs (you can only hold 4 but can switch for free at any time)
you can still get 1 APR program loaded for $350


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*

Since it hasn't been posted in here, *GIAC's* pricing is as follows
GIAC 91/93 Flash : $300 (dual mapped, will automatically switch to take advantage of either octane level)
Add Stock (87oct) : $50
Add Race Gas (100oct) : $100
Add Valet (Golf Cart) : $50
Add Kill: $50
Thus, all 5 programs (and 4 octane levels) can be had for $550 + installation. Switching can be handled either through the use of a VAG-COM (or similar) cable or through the $150 GIAC Handheld switcher
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BlixaBargeld (May 5, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
GIAC 91/93 Flash : $300 (dual mapped, will automatically switch to take advantage of either octane level)
Add Stock (87oct) : $50
Add Race Gas (100oct) : $100
Add Valet (Golf Cart) : $50
Add Kill: $50


It seems to me a little overkill to add 4 different octane settings for a 2.5 NA engine. What is the difference between 91 and 93 octane? 1-2hp?
C2 seems to be the only company to think of the consumer. A 87 octane flash delivers the drivability improvement (dbw lag removed etc.) and gets you 95% of the possible hp gains, but you can save 20c a gallon and use regular.
So $300 for the C2 flash on regular or get a lot of options and a switcher for $700 on premium. Which looks like the better "bang for the buck"?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlixaBargeld* »_It seems to me a little overkill to add 4 different octane settings for a 2.5 NA engine. What is the difference between 91 and 93 octane? 1-2hp?

While I agree 90% of the 2.5L owners would never actually utilize all 4 octane options, the point is, that they are available. This is the same "layout" that GIAC offers for virtually all other vehicles/engines, thus why it is followed over to the 2.5L as well.
The difference between 91 and 93 octane in horsepower is in the area of 2-5hp; with roughly 4-7lb/ft of torque difference. 
Of course, you don't have to get ALL the options, you can pick and choose any that you would like, or add them at any time.
So, if you only want the pump (91/93 dual mapped) file, it would be $300 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Also, $0.20 is roughly 8% of a gallon of premium around here, which, at least on my personal car, as well as my GF's '07, is less of a % than the highway fuel economy I gained after reflashinig with GIAC software







Let's not forget, this is the "economy" motor


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## Cabrio60 (Oct 14, 2006)

Does GIAC have a file for the different '09 ECUs and if not, is there one in development?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cabrio60* »_Does GIAC have a file for the different '09 ECUs and if not, is there one in development?


No file yet for the '09s, and I don't have an exact time frame, but I would imagine its in the works http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ender619 (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This certainly isn't the case; GIAC certainly hasn't "stopped" doing any software, or "given up" on any chassis/engine community, and never has either! We are working directly with GIAC on a possible update to the software at the moment as well http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

how long till this possible update becomes a reality? and for those of us who have GIAC.. will there be a fee ?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *ender619* »_how long till this possible update becomes a reality? and for those of us who have GIAC.. will there be a fee ? 

Unfortunately I don't have a date for you as far as ETA. Up*dates* are free, Up*grades* are not http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (BlixaBargeld)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlixaBargeld* »_
It seems to me a little overkill to add 4 different octane settings for a 2.5 NA engine. What is the difference between 91 and 93 octane? 1-2hp?


if GIAC is anything like APR you would be suprised what you notice between 91 and 93... my girlfriend who, tried to check her tire pressure by "putting the gauge against the tire". Even said the car felt waaaay smoother... the tank lasted quite a bit longer also http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (BluMagic)*

Let's say I get my car flashed after I get the exhaust. Then, later on down the road if I do something like cams or (I hope someone makes them







) more extensive work like head porting, how will the software respond or do I have to get the ecu completely re-flashed?


_Modified by BlackRab08 at 6:19 PM 5-14-2009_


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

you would prob need a revised flash to compensate for the porting or cams...not sure about intake mani though


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (youngkal)*

Does someone make an intake manifold for the 2.5?!? If so, I have not heard about one.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: (BlackRab08)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_Does someone make an intake manifold for the 2.5?!? If so, I have not heard about one.

looks to be on its way
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=11


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Since it hasn't been posted in here, *GIAC's* pricing is as follows
GIAC 91/93 Flash : $300 (dual mapped, will automatically switch to take advantage of either octane level)
Add Stock (87oct) : $50
Add Race Gas (100oct) : $100
Add Valet (Golf Cart) : $50
Add Kill: $50
Thus, all 5 programs (and 4 octane levels) can be had for $550 + installation. Switching can be handled either through the use of a VAG-COM (or similar) cable or through the $150 GIAC Handheld switcher
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Just wondering, how much of a power difference from 91 to 100?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpiderX1016* »_Just wondering, how much of a power difference from 91 to 100?


I would imagine in the area of 7-10hp


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

ok so i just got flashed by c2(93oct with CAI option) and am very happy with the result...have only drive down from helen to acworth(1 hr or so) but seems like my car now pulls all the way to 6k and is much smoother in the delivery of power throughout the power band...full review to follow


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## darkk (Jun 22, 2006)

*Re: (youngkal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *youngkal* »_ i just got flashed by c2(93oct with CAI option) and am very happy with the result.. full review to follow

give it a few days to settle in. you will be way happy. I could not say enough good things about how well my car ran after the ECU flash...


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

Let's say you guys were driving normally like you did before the flash, did you guys get better mpg?


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (SpiderX1016)*

A guy I know has GIAC software and saw about 50 more miles to a tank. Idk, maybe that's the case with all the different programs you can choose from.


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

cant call it for the other programs but the Jeff from C2 said the gas milage gain would be minimal


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpiderX1016* »_Let's say you guys were driving normally like you did before the flash, did you guys get better mpg?

With GIAC, yes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## darkk (Jun 22, 2006)

*Re: (SpiderX1016)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpiderX1016* »_Let's say you guys were driving normally like you did before the flash, did you guys get better mpg?

I had the C2 software.my mileage went up slightly, 1 to 2 mpg driving normal.
before the turbo and with C2 chip programming I got avg. 27/28 mpg.
I regularly get over 350 miles per tank even with the turbo...



_Modified by darkk at 1:36 PM 5-21-2009_


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## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_A guy I know has GIAC software and saw about 50 more miles to a tank. Idk, maybe that's the case with all the different programs you can choose from.


Same here and I drive just as I did before the chip. I have C2 though.


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

50 miles is pretty sick. I only get like 200-270.


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (SpiderX1016)*

Yeah, 50 miles is pretty good. I'm excited to get the flash, whatever program it may be. Once I had 300 to a tank but that was really pushing it! I did not get on it at all and coasted down every hill I came to. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif These motors and the cars they are in really aren't that fuel efficient considering the class/category they are in.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpiderX1016* »_50 miles is pretty sick. I only get like 200-270.

I'm sure our driving patterns are different, but I am usually seeing between 365-395 to a tank


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

just curious what your daily driving scedule is inorder to get that much mpg 395 sounds like your driveway is a onramp and u just cruse at highway speeds only with no brakeing at all?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *youngkal* »_just curious what your daily driving scedule is inorder to get that much mpg 395 sounds like your driveway is a onramp and u just cruse at highway speeds only with no brakeing at all?

405 miles on my last tank (filled up this AM)... My daily drive is ~115 mile round trip, mostly highway (70-80mph)... When doing ALL highway (such as coming back from the R32 GTG @ TOD) I got around 430miles. That was a pretty solid 70-75mph highway cruise.
Even with mostly "around town" I average 350-370 miles to a tank... Granted this is taking it down to 5-10 miles to empty as per the MFA


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
405 miles on my last tank (filled up this AM)... My daily drive is ~115 mile round trip, mostly highway (70-80mph)... When doing ALL highway (such as coming back from the R32 GTG @ TOD) I got around 430miles. That was a pretty solid 70-75mph highway cruise.
Even with mostly "around town" I average 350-370 miles to a tank... Granted this is taking it down to 5-10 miles to empty as per the MFA

I've had the GIAC for about 6 months.
I'm not that happy with it to be honest. 
I also have... catback:nst pulley:carbonio CAI:
I think I should be feeling a bit more performance. I also don't like the fact that the GIAC is so expensive and haven't made ANY updates at all in over a year. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Too bad I can't get my money back and to for something else. Big rip off imo for the GIAC. 
Plus: the gas milage was not any better with the giac. That's total bull$hitt


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *doqFastlane* »_I also don't like the fact that the GIAC is so expensive and haven't made ANY updates at all in over a year. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

GIAC is as far as I know, the cheapest of all the tuners, $300 for 91/93 octane dual mapped.
--APR is $350
--C2 is $300
--Revo is $340
--Unitronic is $400
In addition, as far as "updates" go, there are really only so many changes that can be made to NA software. These changes are FAR fewer than with FI software (such as 2.0TFSI/1.8t). Even with those cars, its not uncommon for software to go over a year without an update.

_Quote, originally posted by *doqFastlane* »_Plus: the gas milage was not any better with the giac. That's total bull$hitt









This does depend strongly on your driving habits. Obviously, if you are going WOT around town, or even "driving aggressively" the fuel economy will not improve. It is under highway cruising where you will notice this mileage increase.

_Quote, originally posted by *doqFastlane* »_Too bad I can't get my money back and to for something else.

GIAC does offer a 30 day money back guarantee, thus if you really were this unhappy with it, you could have gotten a refund for your purchase and been flashed back to stock.


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

How much is the 87 file ?


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## BlixaBargeld (May 5, 2008)

To my knowledge only available from C2 > $299


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (BlixaBargeld)*

I just got the car flashed yesterday with Unitronic at V.A.G. Fair in York, PA and I love it! It's like night and day vs. stock, and the car is pretty quick now. I might have to get a header and test pipe now because the 2.5 sounds f***ing awesome with all that on there. The owner of 20 squared gave me a ride in his car and he had a Eurojet header and exhaust with the Unitronic software and I tell you what, it's hardly distinguishable from an R32! I love it! The 2.5 by far is one of the best sounding base model motors that VW has ever put in their cars.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by BlackRab08 at 7:10 PM 8-16-2009_


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

I had APR 91 + coilovers + ECS dogbone insert + ECS lightweight crank pulley installed about 3 weeks ago, and just finished my first full tank of 91 under normal driving conditions (99% city). Since I got flashed, I've driven like a complete maniac, yet got the 2nd best mileage I've ever recorded.








Unfortunately, I can't separate the gains from the flash from the total gains, since I got a bunch of stuff installed at once, but this should be good information for people who want to do all of these mods. The combination is excellent, btw. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
For comparison, I just got 434.5 km (272 mi) on my last tank (48.4 L). I've also had a Carbonio CAI since the fall. The only other common bolt-on that I don't have is exhaust.


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (Jon1983)*

You should get an exhaust. I guarantee you'll love it!


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (BlackRab08)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_You should get an exhaust. I guarantee you'll love it!









Yeah, I'll do it eventually... but it costs the most for the least gains. So it comes last.


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: (Jon1983)*

I guess I got lucky. I found a used GHL exhaust on here for $275 and it was local. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Just keep your eye out for anything like that. I love the GHL. It gives the 2.5 a pretty aggressive sound that turns heads and gets really loud and mean 3500 rpm and up. I will be saving up for the Eurojet header because I heard a Rabbit with that combination and it really surprised me that it sounds almost exactly like an R32! Who would have thought that the lowly 2.5L n/a motor could sound like that! It makes me even love it more.


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## prenne5050 (Jun 22, 2008)

*Re: (BlackRab08)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlackRab08* »_I guess I got lucky. I found a used GHL exhaust on here for $275 and it was local. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Just keep your eye out for anything like that. I love the GHL. It gives the 2.5 a pretty aggressive sound that turns heads and gets really loud and mean 3500 rpm and up. I will be saving up for the Eurojet header because I heard a Rabbit with that combination and it really surprised me that it sounds almost exactly like an R32! Who would have thought that the lowly 2.5L n/a motor could sound like that! It makes me even love it more.









i was next in line for that!!! haha such a good deal, im just waitin for the next exhaust pick up to be that cheap. And im gettin C2 software this weekend, can't wait.


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## HIBB 304 (Nov 8, 2008)

*Re: (prenne5050)*

Just got APR's fully loaded ECU and love it. Well worth the money. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Now got to get my Eurojet catback on that is sitting at my house in WV and I'm in Fla.


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## tar_heel (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: I want to flash my ECU (BlackRab08)*

GIAC software is Awesome! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
With C2 software....well who knows what you get? 
Remember.........You only get what you pay for.


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

"GIAC software is Awesome! 
With C2 software....well who knows what you get? 
Remember.........You only get what you pay for"
I know what I got...software from a company that is in the foreground of product development for the 2.5l and not to mention a couple great down to earth guys who are willing to go out of the way to help coustomers...with Gaic u get a faceless company that has no support for their product...enjoy


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *youngkal* »_with Gaic u get a faceless company that has no support for their product...enjoy

Wow that is quite a statement to make, clearly you have not dealt with GIAC in the past. To say that it is faceless is clearly a lie, look at their involvement in racing and file development. To say that it has no support is a lie as well, although I do not directly work for GIAC, I have fielded many questions and concerns regarding their 2.5L software as well being in direct contact with them regarding further development of the software utilizing my own 2.5L as a test car.


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## BlackRab08 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

It's about 2 weeks later now and I'm still loving the Unitronic software! I honestly think it is faster than my 337 was with an intake and BOV!


_Modified by BlackRab08 at 8:49 PM 8-20-2009_


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