# Eos turbo diesel – "Clean TDI" common rail engine soon?



## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

I hate the Tdi noise of the "pumpe düse" injectors (they will be replaced soon by piezzo electric nozzle and then by common rail technology as it is already the case on bigger engines of the VAG group.
I preferred the 2.0 T DSG. (TDI DSG will be available here around march 2007 for delivery, I mean you can order them now) ...
even if the impression of pushing on your back is less impressive with the 2.0 T than with the TDI, it stays from 1600 RPM till 6500 VS 2000 till 2300 (big kick) for the Tdi then stabilize and make noise until 4500...
But the tdi is a very good engine in a non convertible car (audi A4 / A6 for example) even heavy thanks to the huge torque.
Bougy
Brussels-based Bougy’s comments above on the TDI (in the thread Special ''European color (apparently):Samoa Red'') set me thinking and researching because of my interest in the TDI DSG in the UK. I think the topic worth a separate thread, not least because of the likelihood of the diesel car engine situation in North America changing. 
I have not yet been able to access a review of the current Eos TDI but one or two links referring to reviews cite them as saying that it is noisy for a convertible, reinforcing Bougy’s view. The UK brochure gives a noise figure of 72 dB for the manual TDI (no figure yet for the DSG but unlikely to be much different); this is not terrible compared to some manufacturers' non-convertible diesel models but I suspect that it is far from the full story - I do not yet know what the conditions are for that reading and how it pans out in real life with the EOS top down, not least having regard to Bougy’s comments about the noise of the ‘pumpe düse’ fuel injectors.
The good news is that on 17 November when VW announced the change of chairman they also stated in the context of investment over the next three years:
“ With regard to power trains, new generations of petrol engines offering improved performance, fuel consumption and emissions will be introduced, and diesel engines will be switched to common rail technology.” 
Moreover today’s announcement at 
http://media.vw.com/article_di...10001 
of the latest version of the “concept” Tiguan compact SUV at the LA Auto show includes news of its “Clean TDI” diesel engine. The press release does not say so but I believe that taken in conjunction with the news of investment in common rail diesels above the “Clean TDI” engine is common rail. 
It may be the case that VW perseveres with the ''pumpe düse'’ technology for a while yet in some models (the 170 hp VW turbo diesel in the SEAT Altea FR still uses it, albeit with piezzo electric nozzles) but I think that the Eos being an upmarket convertible it must be a prime candidate for the ‘'Clean TDI’' engine to replace the 140 hp ‘'pumpe duse'’ one.The question is: How soon?


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: Eos turbo diesel – "Clean TDI" common rail engine soon? (eosman)*

Two further references that may be of interest:
1 http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/10971.html addresses clean diesel car moves by VW and others in the USA.
2 The UK magazine 'What Car" coverage of the concept Tiguan at http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=223146 says that the VW 'Clean TDI' "With up to 170bhp....will replace today’s 2.0-litre diesel in 2008". I welcome that. 
Before the 'Clean TDI' was announced I asked VW UK if they were going to produce the Eos with the 170 hp TDI (as used in the Seat Altea FR). They told me that there were no plans to do so. No doubt that was accurate but it looks to me as if it did not address the coming 170 hp 'Clean TDI': even if it's not 170 hp the Eos awaits the quieter and cleaner diesel. 
VW are to be applauded for their lates diesel move so I am resisting the temption to call the current TDI 'Dirty' even if that is a possible implication of the 'Clean TDI' monniker that they are giving the new engine, at least in the USA!


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

As you likely know with the higher sulfer deisel in the NA market ther is not the same high output deisel variations available. the 100HP, 1.8l diesel in our Golf does not have especially loud (or large, I assume) injectors. 
Paul


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## owr084 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Grinder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grinder* »_As you likely know with the higher sulfer deisel in the NA market ther is not the same high output deisel variations available. the 100HP, 1.8l diesel in our Golf does not have especially loud (or large, I assume) injectors. 
Paul

Huh? Down here in the states, ULSD (<15ppm sulfur) is readily available now. In fact, any 2007 diesel cannot be run on anything but ULSD.


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## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: (owr084)*

Please tell me what "common rail" means and why it's better. TIA


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (vweosdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vweosdriver* »_Please tell me what "common rail" means and why it's better. TIA

Essentially VW's 'pumpe duse' (pump nozzle) diesel technology, while a big step forward at the time some eight years ago, has one pump unit and one injector for each cylinder. Common rail has one fuel rail plus computer-controlled injectors handling mulit-phase injections of fuel both pre- and post-combustion, leading to greater efficiency, refinement and performance. Key in the all important context of increasingly tough emissions regulations is that common rail (not pump nozzle individual injectors) gives scope for the fitting of particulates filters combined with the post-combustion phase that does not exist with pump nozzle technology. 
I have drawn heavily on a late 2005 article for this summary: see http://car-reviews.automobile..../1591/
VW (including Audi) and DaimlerChrysler (especially Mercedes-Benz) are cooperating on the diesel engine front in a programme called ''Bluetec" (VW is sticking to the name "Clean TDI" while DaimlerChrysler is using the ''Bluetec'' name it seems) to produce new emission-cleaning technology aimed especially at reducing Nitrogen Oxides. Common rail is integral to this which is largely why VW is moving to it. They are serious about cracking the North American market and it looks to be a great step forward that gives them a chance of doing so as well as having a big impact in other markets including Europe. 
I was never a diesel fan myself until a few years ago since when experience of the Peugeot-Citroen HDI common rail diesel technology got me into the benefits of lower overall fuel costs and excellent torque characteristics with very acceptable refinement. Diesel can only get better with the latest developments. 

The pull of VW diesel offerings for me is that for the time being they (including Audi and Seat) have the added benefit of the fabulous DSG gearboxes: my one hesitation now is the reported lack of refinement of the existing TDI in the Eos, not least with the top down, 
although the DSG version may be better than I now expect in that regard. I really hate to have to wait another year for the "Clean" TDI Eos!


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: (eosman)*

If you've driven both CR-TDI and PD-TDI's you'll usually stick with the PD because it's less noisy and comes with a better fuel efficiency. The main reason why nowadays everybody is switching to CR-TDI's is because the PD's never got popular enough - only VAG (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) built them and which might be more the problem, the emissions are harder to control with the PD-TDI.


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (Theresias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Theresias* »_If you've driven both CR-TDI and PD-TDI's you'll usually stick with the PD because it's less noisy and comes with a better fuel efficiency. The main reason why nowadays everybody is switching to CR-TDI's is because the PD's never got popular enough - only VAG (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) built them and which might be more the problem, the emissions are harder to control with the PD-TDI.

Interesting. The PD-TDI noise problem, if real as I fear, must be exacerbated in Eos top-down mode. While we are still at the stage of the Clean TDI engine probably not being fully refined for launch, anyone interested might care to look AND LISTEN to this YouTube video of the Concept Tiguan on the road at http://vwgazette.blogspot.com/ (I have no idea what would be the comparitive sound of the Eos PR-TDI engine under the same recording conditions).


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (eosman)*

Also, while I have not yet trawled through all of the forum at TDiClub.com, there is interesting news of the Clean TDI in a Jetta displayed in the USA: it seems that at idle at least the engine is very quiet (no real news of the noise level when moving) - see http://forums.tdiclub.com/show...ge=10


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## SEAT (Apr 26, 2001)

*Re: (eosman)*

I love that idling diesel sound! In my experience ( I've owned three TDI's all VE pumped rotaries ); but have much experience with the PD's as well, they're all quieter than the gas equivalent under driving conditions just like the R10 TDI race car... they ping at idle due to the extremely lean running conditions, just the nature of the beast same reason why they're slow to warm up, their just so efficient at idle that they produce so little waste heat.
Another thing about idling diesels is how amazingly consistent the idle speed is, they're like sewing machines; a gas engine will never provide that same mechanical sense of perfect order IMHO. 
I read that the new CR2.0 Jetta displayed at the Alt Wheels Festival in Boston was quieter than a Toyota Camry hybrid both engines idling, I can't confirm that but that's just what I heard...
Go TDI!
Once you live with a modern diesel for any length of time, you'll get hooked...it's that simple.


_Modified by SEAT at 10:26 AM 12-11-2006_


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: (SEAT)*

I traded a PD-TDI jetta for my eos, and I also can't imagine what the perceived noise issue is. It was very very quiet. It obviously has a different sound that a gas engine, but it was certainly no louder.


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

Thanks SEAT and gilesrulz for your input. A new issue is the fuel consumption of the Eos 2.0 TDI DSG. The UK Eos brochure that I have shows the manual version official figures (mpg/ltr per 100km) as: 
urban 35.3/8.0 extra-urban	56.5/5.0
combined	47.1/6.0 
The brochure contained no figures for the DSG and VW have today come up with the following official figures: 
urban 31.7/8.9
extra urban	51.4/5.5
combined	42.2/6.7


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

I meant to add that the DSG figures make no sense to me, the fuel combined figure indicating consumption of nearly 12% heavier for the 2.0 TDI DSG than the manual. When I compare the official figures for the manual and DSG versions of the same engine in the SEAT Altea, the DSG is less than 2% heavier in the combined (ie urban and extra-urban) category. The publicity about DSG tends to emphasise that it is not significantly less fuel efficient than its manual equivalent. I have asked VW UK for an explanation of the Eos DSG figures.


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

VW UK came back to me today to confirm the Eos TDI DSG fuel consumption figures given above (they are, of course, the result of tests by an independent official body). The message from the technical department relayed to me by VW UK Customer Services is that the DSG in the Eos cannot necessarily be compared to that in the SEAT Altea: for example as installed in the Eos it may weigh more than in the Altea. While I can see that this is possible the difference of nearly 12% overall consumption figure of the DSG over the manual in the TDI Eos as against a difference of less than 2% for the Altea TDI DSG compared with the Altea manual seems to be high. I shall try to find out from VW exactly what does account for the difference.


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (eosman)*

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't "Clean TDI" Mercedes-VW CR Tech sharing a US only thing ?
VW will sell its own inhouse CR tech in Europe & ROW markets.
1st new inhouse engines are due in late 2007 / early 2008.
BTW thanks for explaining difference between CR & PD










_Modified by phaeton at 8:45 AM 12-16-2006_


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

I am not aware that VW's version ('Clean TDi') of the joint VW/Chrysler Bluetech technology will be limited to the USA and I think that out of the question both economically and for regulatory reasons. Unfortunately for the public the European Community has delayed until 2009 the coming into effect of tighter emissions regulations for new vehicles, so while I am sure that VW are working on Clean TDI introduction in Europe it look as if they are concentrating first on the USA.


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (eosman)*

Pre DCX-VW agreement
*2008MY Jetta TDI CR - VW Group Engineered engine*
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2837618
Also the EcoRacer concept used CR TDI








So VW was/is developing their own CR Tech for Europe & ROW. 
Unless of course the DCX deal distinguishes all of the above


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## chewym (Jun 21, 2006)

It would be nice if VW got the latest injectors with 2,000 bar pressure for the common rail, the ones that the V12 TDI uses. VW will still basically use all of their own technology. TDI diesels are still very much on top/the best. The Auid Q7 V6 TDI is over a seconds quicker than the Mercedes Benz V6 CDI (same engine size and power/ same overall weight) The 2.0 TDI supposedly won't even need the Bluetec technology urea injection. Hopefully it gets here sooner than later.


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (phaeton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phaeton* »_
So VW was/is developing their own CR Tech for Europe & ROW. 
Unless of course the DCX deal distinguishes all of the above









My understanding is that VW's 'Clean TDI' uses the urea SCR exhaust particulates trapping and cleaning system developed jointly with DCX in the Bluetec venture. For VW it necessitates a change from the existing TDI pumpe duse injection system to CR with its post-combustion phase.


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

Hi *eosman* I found this newly released PR that states Clean TDI is a US only thing








http://www.volkswagen-media-se....html

_Quote, originally posted by *VW PR* »_BLUETEC and Clean TDI
These base technologies are already being further refined. New powertrains, including the engine concept developed by Volkswagen under the working title “Clean TDI” for use in the USA, are already in the prototype stage. These engines will satisfy the strictest emissions laws in the world – even the so-called Tier2 Bin5 in California. 

The “Clean TDI” engines are an important component of the BLUETEC Offensive kicked off at the end of November in Los Angeles by the three German car producers Audi, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen. The goal of this partnership is to establish the BLUETEC concept as a universal symbol for clean and fuel efficient cars and SUVs with diesel engines. By the way, the first Clean TDI celebrated its world premiere in the Tiguan concept car that was presented in parallel to the BLUETEC Offensive at the Los Angeles Auto Show.



_Modified by phaeton at 7:33 AM 12-19-2006_


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (phaeton)*

Thanks Phaeton. Without wishing to get into splitting hairs, the press release - issued for the USA market - does not state that the Clean TDI will be for the USA only. I continue to believe that it would not make economic sense for VW to develop the technology for that market alone, not least given the tightening of emissions regulations in Europe and, no doubt, elsewhere. 
I hope that you are not suffering from the appalling weather overheating that is causing chaos to the Aussie farming industry - yesterday it was brought home to me when I saw a report on tv of the disastrous situation in Goulburn which I once had the pleasure of visiting: an issue not unrelated to what we are discussing!


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (eosman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosman* »_Thanks Phaeton. Without wishing to get into splitting hairs, the press release - issued for the USA market - does not state that the Clean TDI will be for the USA only. I continue to believe that it would not make economic sense for VW to develop the technology for that market alone, not least given the tightening of emissions regulations in Europe and, no doubt, elsewhere. 
I hope that you are not suffering from the appalling weather overheating that is causing chaos to the Aussie farming industry - yesterday it was brought home to me when I saw a report on tv of the disastrous situation in Goulburn which I once had the pleasure of visiting: an issue not unrelated to what we are discussing!









Yeah I read that too, its strange though that VW would leave Europe Market later for this new CR tech








Its been hot Down Under for the past 2 weeks or so, we have had a couple of bushfires blazing here in SA & interstate, worst now is in Tasmania.
Luckily past 2 days we've had rainy weather







with storms which can also be a nay with the lighting







(a hail storm was recorded in the state NSW which was declared a natural disaster)
I see that London Airport has been fogged in so it looks like crazy weather is everywhere


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (phaeton)*

I came across this today at www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room...ex.com/zeroforum_graphics/grinsanta.gif[/IMG]


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (eosman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosman* »_I came across this today at http://www.platinum.matthey.co....html from just over a year ago:
"Volkswagen is to change its diesel technology in order to meet EU emissions regulations, facilitating greater use of diesel particulate filters (DPF). Automotive News Europe reports the car manufacturer is swapping its unit-injector fuel management systems for common-rail fuel-injection systems. These systems make it easier to fit particulate filters, which help to reduce the amount of damaging emissions entering the atmosphere. Volkswagen is due to launch its new three and four-cylinder diesel engines in 2007, which will have to conform to the current Euro IV regulations. In 2009 more stringent Euro V emissions regulations will come into force to help fight climate change, with pgms playing a key role in achieving a reduction in emissions. © Adfero"
This seems to me to lend credence to the view that the Clean TDI will appear in Europe at least. 









Yeah CR tech will be in Euro VWs but this is VWs inhouse Development CR tech not the Bluetec/Clean TDI tech from DCX








I'm sure it will be as quiet & clean as the the Clean TDI tech


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (phaeton)*



phaeton said:


> Yeah CR tech will be in Euro VWs but this is VWs inhouse Development CR tech not the Bluetec/Clean TDI tech from DCX
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (eosman)*

This was pre Clean TDI deal with DCX http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2279902
Thread says VW is developing its new generation of 3 & 4 cylinder CR Diesels







from my understanding Clean TDI is using old reworked TDI PD engines.
Source is Automotive News Europe










_Modified by phaeton at 10:35 AM 12-25-2006_


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (phaeton)*

Thanks. I still do not buy it. I find it significant that on the UK VW website in the Concept cars section they say about Concept Tiguan:
"Under the bonnet, the concept car features a completely new type of diesel engine, called BLUETEC. Developed in partnership with Audi and Mercedes-Benz and presented for the first time at the LA show, BLUETEC employs a modular concept of different systems to reduce emissions significantly. The Concept Tiguan is expected to go on sale in the UK early in 2008." 
That seems to me to mean that Clean TDI is on its way to the UK.








Clean TDI is common rail - they need CR's post-combustion phase to leverage the Bluetec particulates filter technology.


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## Fortuna Wolf (Aug 27, 2006)

IMO CR is far better than PD. Quieter, greater fuel efficiency due to more efficient combustion, and its cleaner. Bosch I believe owns the rights to CR technology, or at least they produce the top level tech in the field, and so VW has to license that. Whereas, if they stay with PD its cheaper for them. PD tech though is problematic, has lower injection pressures, and doesn't allow for catalyst burn offs like CR. You could fit urea injection to it, but you'd need a particulate filter ahead of that, and you would need to keep it clean. With CR an after ignition highly retarded injection sequence is performed every few minutes (about 5 from what I hear) that raises the EGTs to burn the particulates off of the filter.


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## eosman (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (Fortuna Wolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fortuna Wolf* »_IMO CR is far better than PD. Quieter, greater fuel efficiency due to more efficient combustion, and its cleaner. Bosch I believe owns the rights to CR technology, or at least they produce the top level tech in the field, and so VW has to license that. Whereas, if they stay with PD its cheaper for them. PD tech though is problematic, has lower injection pressures, and doesn't allow for catalyst burn offs like CR. You could fit urea injection to it, but you'd need a particulate filter ahead of that, and you would need to keep it clean. With CR an after ignition highly retarded injection sequence is performed every few minutes (about 5 from what I hear) that raises the EGTs to burn the particulates off of the filter. 

Agreed. I think that one of the challenges may well be to handle safely the considerable heat needed/generated in the burn off process - otherwise if the car happened to be on a very dry grass verge at the wrong time maybe there could be a problem







No doubt that has been or is being overcome. VW have done a great job with PD but they have now recognised the need to move to CR - the question is when it is going to happen and reach the various markets. The USA looks to be first in line. Since I live in the UK I hope that Europe is not far behind


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (eosman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosman* »_Thanks. I still do not buy it. 

We'll have to wait & see








Anyway its a win/win situation VW is definitely changing to common rail & have done with the Touareg, Phaeton & Crafter van


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