# When a Flying Lizard Slides By (Audi R10 and Porsche 911 Content)



## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

You might have seen this if you watched SPEED this past weekend. During the first 20 minutes of the 12 Hours of Sebring, Dindo Capello made contact with one of the Flying Lizard Porsche 911s. The rear left of his R10 clipped the front of the 911, sending it spinning across the grass and into the tire barriers. 
Shooting the race, I just happened to be along the sliding route. I saw the collision in my viewfinder and snapped off a two pictures before realizing I was probably not far from the Porsche's trajectory and dropped the camera from my face just in time to get an eye full of dust as it slid by and into the tires. 
As you can see in the second shot, the R10 wasn't all that damaged.








After hitting the tire barrier, the 911 was a little worse for wear.
















* More Sebring Photos *


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By ([email protected])*

I think that the Audi probation thing is a bunch of bull! The move Melo made that took out the Loles Porsche was much dumber. If Van Overbeck held his line(like slower cars should), Dindo wouldn't have punted him. Maybe this is IMSA getting back at Audi for them crticizing IMSA's management decisions.
And I'd love to tell to Mr. Atherton's face that I have Ford T-Birds at my house that can take more abuse than that 911 ever could. My father has bought 1980's Ford T-birds at auction that have rolled over on to their roofs, and still drove them.
That 911 would have no chance in a door handling affair against an '85 T-bird, let alone a rear impact, as the T-bird has bumpers made of real steel, and what does the 911 have? The engine block, which is why the Flying Lizard Porsche almost burned to the ground at Detroit last year. And they're just as screwed when the rear end a T-bird, as steel bumpers and ligltly protected radiators and oil coolers don't mix either.
If I'm Flying Lizard, I'd just be happy that Van Overbeck is OK, and that their car can race another day.
Maybe IMSA, since they have NASCAR perfromance ballancing and NASCAR start/restart procedures, should adopt a NASCAR shorttrack overtaking rule-if someone is up to your door or further up, give them the line. If you get taken out then, it's your problem.
After becoming an ALMS fan in 2000, I've held Scott Atherton and Don Panoz to an exeptionaly high standard-above the ranks of Brian France, Tony George, Max Mosley and Bernie Eccostone. I've placed Scott and Don on par with Bill France Sr. and Bill France Jr.
And if IMSA's paying attention, it's not below Porsche to complain about something they think is unfair. Just look at the news section at http://www.mulsannescorner.com about Porsche accusing Acura of cheating.
Sorry for the rambling, but I've seen worse in the past, and nothing was done. And this makes me wonder what IMSA's staff has been thinking the past few years.

_Modified by chernaudi at 6:42 AM 3-19-2008_


_Modified by chernaudi at 7:54 AM 3-19-2008_


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (chernaudi)*

Its the sole responsibility of the overtaking car to make the pass cleanly and safely, regardless of where the car being overtaken is and what line they are taking. As long as the Porsche was on a consistent line and did not pull over into the Audi, its completely 100% the Audi's fault in taking out the Porsche. Period, no discussion needed.
Dindo is in a car that is a ton faster and more maneuverable than the Porsche, it was less than an hour into a 12 hour race and there was no need for him to push it. He could have easily held off a corner and two and blew by the Porsche with little to no time lost.


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (.:RDriver)*

But Van Overbeck didn't hold a consistant line-he jutted to the left in the head on replay just before the contact.
And I just love how inconsistant IMSA is on these decisions. Last year at Lime Rock, Chris Dyson was less further up on a 911, and the 911 was punted off and was deemed unavoidable contact. And Allan McNish rear ended a RS Spyder at St.Pete, and was penalized only for "jumping the start". No Period, Disscussion needed for IMSA's rationale. IMSA become as bas as NASCAR lately on these decisions.
And if anyone has seen the racing documentery "Speed Merchants", Sam Posey said that the GT drivers need to be cognizant of the faster cars and give them room, because what the prototypes are doing is more important relative to what the GT guys are doing-the GT cars are trying to win their class, and the LMP cars are trying to win overall.
But that was 1972-have things changed that much? With the GT guys becoming less cognizant(if not flat out disrespectful) of the faster cars, maybe IMSA should start penalizing GT cars that do blocking manuveres and the like. Or replace GT1 and GT2 with GT350 and GT500. Less power=less straight line speed. More downforce/lighter weight=better handling. The Corvettes have to use the whole damn road just to take a fast corner due to poor front/rear areo ballance. GT1 is almost dead in the ALMS anyways.
In otherwords, the GT drivers should drive like Mark Martin does in NASCAR-if a faster car approches, Mark will duck down on a straightaway and let them by with little time lost to him or his competitor. However, as you've said, the LMP cars can just as easily do the same.
My point is that the GT guys should recoginze that what their doing is less important than what the LMP cars are doing in relative terms. In fact, I don't watch GT racing, because as I've said, GT1 is virtually dead, and GT2 was a spec Porsche series until Ferrari showed up, and now it's a virtual spec Porsche/Ferrari challenge series.
And if some people need to be put on probation by IMSA, it's Peugeot and Michael Andretti: Peugeot for their down right unfriendly attitude towards the media(Speed tried to do an "In the Office" segment, but was turned down as the Pug team manager was concerned that Audi could see the inside of the car-makes no logical freakin' sense at all!), and Andretti for saying that IMSA was trying to "screw"(Mike's own word!) his team on a scoring error.
And thought Audi has been critcal of IMSA, they've gone out of their way to do things for their fans, with the Cars&Stars stuff. Has any other team, let alone high ranking IMSA officals, done the same?
If IMSA is so hard set on penalizing Audi for an ontrack accident, then maybe others should be penalized for not following IMSA's "For the Fans" mantra-including IMSA themselves.


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (chernaudi)*

Totally dont agree with a word you say. LMP is NOT in any way more important than GT, they only think they are. The GT guys have just as much on the line as the LMP boys and in every racing series ever created (except maybe NASCAR), the over taking car has ALWAYS been the one responsible for making the safe pass....period....no discussion. Posey was wrong with that statement.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (.:RDriver)*

I'm not going to debate the passing thing, but I don't blame those going for an all out win to be a bit expectant of priority. Whether it's Audi, Peugeot, Acura, Porsche or anyone else, if you've made the highest commitment to the series, I think you probably have a sense of entitlement. I'd think that'd be a bit natural. 
This situation? On Radio Le Mans, Dindo sounded generally apologetic. Accidents happen.


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By ([email protected])*

And I'm not saying that the whole deal was Van Overbeck's fault. I don't know what the vision is out the back of a 911 is, but the rear wing and louvred rear quarter panel windows can't help matters.
On that count, Dindo probably should've given Johannes a break.
But the GT guys should remember that they're not in a Super GT car(and so should the prototype drivers for that matter). GT1 cars lack effective nose diffusers(the have them, they just don't work worth a crap compared to a GT500 car, let alone an LMP car), and GT2 cars have only flat front splitters and no rear diffuser. And the GT2 cars(as if things need be worse) have steel brake rotors(probably a cost cutting thing).
My argument for the GT guys going easy on the LMP cars and letting them have the right of way(as on our highways) would make since... 
But: 1-it's not a public road way, and 2, giving the LMP car room if they're up to your door would make sense-if the GT guys can see that far! And with all the crap in those cars(and opaqe panels forming the B and C post, and the HANS device, and the rear wing), it's virtually impossible. 
That's the only argument that I have against the HANS-it limits head movement. But between getting taken out in an accident because I can't move my head to see behind me, or being crippled or die from a basilar skull fracture or internal decapitation(completely broken neck), what do you think I'd choose? And if you were me, you'd make the same conclusion-take the HANS.
I just think that the LMP and GT cars should give eachother some breaks-after all, this all started because the LMP2 cars can't keep up with the Audi R10s in heavy traffic. And(as in NASCAR) if you ruffle someone's feathers, expect the same later on-be it intentional or by accident.

_Modified by chernaudi at 5:18 AM 3-21-2008_


_Modified by chernaudi at 5:19 AM 3-21-2008_


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (chernaudi)*

You'll find 99% of the time, both get along well. The fast cars know the slow cars can only do so much and the slow cars know that the fast cars are coming up behind them. Whenever the opportunity is there, you will often see the GT cars move out of the way or offline to let a P car go through. 
However, that can only be done at certain times and in certain places. You CANNOT expect a GT car to go offline in a braking zone to let a P car though, that is suicide due to debris and other things on the track offline that could case the GT car to go off.
Also, remember, so far the history has shown recently that the actual racing is closer in the GT class than it has been in the P classes for some time. When a GT cars goes out of its way to let a P car through, they lose significant time. If they are fighting with another car, there is a VERY good chance that the GT car behind can just follow the P car through for the pass.
So, when GT cars are racing and having their own battles, they cannot be expected to alter that battle to let a P car through that might have a full lap on its nearest competitor.
Also, the fast cars have way more ability to drive offline due to their better aero, they have more power so they can scoot around cars easier on short straights and they have all around better ability to choose when and how they get past. When a GT car is running, they are running at 100% no matter where they are on course. When a P car is running the same speed as a GT car, they are only running 75% of what they can do and therefore have a lot more flexibility in how they can make the pass. Making dive bomb moves or putting their nose underneath a GT car going into a corner is not the way they should be doing it.
The last few years the P cars have been getting more and more aggressive toward passing GT cars and IMSA is trying to curtail that a bit. You'll often find harsher penalties laid out on the P drivers when they make contact with a GT car then when contact is inter-class, mainly for the reasons I stated above.
And the sense of entitlement is total BS. None of those drivers are laying out any money or whatever to make the "highest commitment." They are simply driving the cars. One day a driver could be in a P car the next day a GT car (think Patrick Long in the Spyder/911). They dont have an entitlement to have everyone else drop their panties so they can get by. They may think they do and that is why IMSA is trying to cut back on such contact.
Everyone needs to play nice. There are 4 races going on at the same time, all are just as important to those running them as the other, they just all happen to be on the track at the same time. The overtaking car since the history of racing has been the one responsible for making the pass safely. The faster car also has the ability and flexibility to choose when to make that safe pass. Its a lot easier for a fast car going slower to choose its line than for a slow car on the edge all the time. Its only right they are the ones responsible.
Now, I'm not making any judgments in this situation, I have actually only heard about it as I was looking the other way when it happened and have not watched the broadcast yet. However, from what I heard and whats the case 90% of the time, if the overtaking P car hit the GT car, its usually their fault and usually their responsibility to take the blame. Sounds that if Dindo was very apologetic, he knew he could have avoided it.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (.:RDriver)*

Again, I'll defer to the passing situations as you're much more intimate with the sport than I am Jimmy. I'm not speaking for any drivers that have told me this, but the entitlement comment was mine. However, I could imagine that all drivers feel a pressure to run at a certain pace and perhaps step that up a bit of they're running for all-out. If you look at the economics though, it's the factory teams and bigger name drivers bringing in the sponsorship money (Patron, Lowe's, DHL, etc.). That money helps make the series happen, grow and succeed. For all of these reasons, I think it's fair for those gunning for all-out win to have a sense of priority.


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By ([email protected])*

I understand the priority for overall honors that you've mentioned George, as much has been made in recent times about the LMP1 vs LMP2 battles.
However, to back up Jimmy's points about that all classes have the same objective at the end of the day-a class win-and competetion has been as close-if not closer-in GT2 than ever before(the Audi R10 vs Penske Porsche battle is the only battle that's consistantly been as close), every privateer team in all the classes get paid the same prize money amounts regardless of class for wins and finishing positions.
Thus(for example), in 2005, Champion Racing(LMP900/LMP1) was paid the same amount of money that Intersport(LMP2/LMP675) was and the latter got the same amount of prize money that Peterson/White Lightning(GT2) got for race wins and championship wins. Each class also is given the same amount of points for race wins, finishing positions, etc.
Factory teams(Audi Sport North America, Penske Racing, Corvette Racing) don't really benefit from race-to-race prize money, only point fund money and contengincy money(correct me if I'm wrong Jimmy). But they still have sponsors that want their name out there(Audi has Shell, Penske has Porsche and DHL, and Corvette has Chevrolet and Compuware). And the Acura teams(offically privateers under IMSA rules) have XM Sat. Radio(AGR), Patron tequila(Highcroft), and Fernandez has Lowe's and their brands, such as Kobalt tools(Lowe's badged Snap-On tools, but that's not the point).
Long time racing writer Chris Economaki has refered to racing as America's biggest charity case. And that's really true in the ALMS, where purses are relatively meager(this won't help much, but a lot of it isn't IMSA's fault. But a title sponsor would help-as long as they don't screw(I'd use a much stonger word, but I'd probably get in trouble with you guys on that issue for sure!) with the series), and factory support(LMP1 and GT1) is a virtual blank spot.
I think where the priority thing comes from is what's the headline at the ALMS' site after a race: the overall winner. The tend to get the most attention as far as headlines, but at least Speed TV tries to give equal coverage during a race to all classes if possible. I hope that ABC does the same, although they've caused IMSA to shorten the race at St. Pete to only 1:55 instead of 2:45 last year(Jimmy, your ESPN arguement is valid here!), and I hope that they don't have Rusty Wallace cover the races at St. Pete and Long Beach-Rusty is a good NASCAR commentator, I just don't think he's sports car material.
After I just skewed down that tangent(and before I send this thread deeper into hell than I already have), I think that IMSA does kinda tend to bias coverage to the overall winner, which isn't entirely their fault-everyone wants/needs an overall winner, or else why would someone complete the most laps first.
But I just think that the GT and LMP guys should play nice, which they do to a reasonable degree most of the time. But when you have LMP2 cars dive bombing GT2 and GT1 cars because the Audi R10s(and even the R8 in '06) could deal with traffic better(more power/torque, and the R8 was a tank), those guys are gonna see the same from the GT guys, as well as them fighting the LMP1 cars to keep up with the class leader.

_Modified by chernaudi at 1:54 PM 3-21-2008_


_Modified by chernaudi at 1:56 PM 3-21-2008_


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (chernaudi)*

While I agree that the most is made of the overall winner in the news and press, I'm just saying that the sense of entitlement is a bit misguided if its out there.
P drivers need to know and understand that those guys fighting for their GT2 class win are having just as an important battle from their perspective as the overall leaders are having. You cant just expect them to move over and let the fast guys through.
Now a GT2 car that is 10 laps down is one thing, they have nothing to race for and can and should get out of the way as safely as they can, and it does get done quite often. Likewise a P car that is not in a current head to head battle should be able to show restraint when coming up on a GT2 battle for position.
The thing about the Sebring incident is that it was early in the race and both groups of cars were in battles for position at the time. In that case, its the job of the overtaking car to do it safely and responsibly. Again, the R10 has a lot more reserve in it when it comes to passing speeds and torque to get by the slower car on a short stretch of track. There is really no need to dive bomb into a corner to overtake them. On the flipside of it being early, there was still plenty of race left for the Audi. Being held up even two seconds at that point would not have played out as a problem in the overall length of 12 hours.
Anyway, it does happen and IMSA tries to send the message that people need to think and be careful out there. You arent the only one on the track and your race is not the only one going on either. Be smart and be safe otherwise you'll get penalized for it.
*You'll lose a lot more time in the pits serving a stop and go for knocking off a slower car than you will by waiting one or two more corners to blow past them on the straight. *


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (.:RDriver)*

Quote: You'll lose a lot more time in the pits serving a stop and go for knocking off a slower car than you will by waiting one or two more corners to blow past them on the straight. 
That's a good strategy for a LMP1 car, as they have 650-700hp. The LMP2 cars have only about 500bhp at most-not enough when the Corvette and Aston Martins have 150-200 more horsepower. Passing a GT1 car in an LMP2 car-even a RS Spyder, is futle unless you do it early-C6Rs and DBR9s have blown by LMP2 cars at Le Mans, Road America, and MMP because of the horsepower difference on the straights.
And Tim Mayer even directed his warning of possible penalites for avoidable contact towards the LMP2 contengent, as they've caused most of the GT vs LMP accidents recently. The Audi and Penske guys are the teams that the GT teams get along with most, as they rarely cause accidents. The Acura and other teams have cause a ton of accidents last year.
And things might get worse before they get better, as the Audis already have an advantage in traffic at almost all tracks. And the LMP2 cars having 20-30 less hp and carrying 55lbs more weight, means that the Audis and LMP2 cars will be close in qualifying at the street courses, and the Audi's traffic advantage will be in theory more pronounced. 
I'll bet that the LMP2 guys can't wait until they get to MMP, but since they're using the perimiter couses, they'll loose their edge there too, as the perimiter course has all the fast parts-Audi land pretty much.
Thus, I think that the LMP2 guys will get ancy when an R10 is on them, and they'll likely screw themselves a lot more this year. The pressure of the LMP2 cars being able to compete for overall wins in the ALMS is what's probably causing most of the accidents anyways, all the more reason for IMSA to enact the ACO's regs in the future.


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (chernaudi)*

However, a P2 car corners and brakes much much better than a GT1 car does. Therefore they have the ability to pass on the outside of longer corners and still get through faster, while a GT1 car is doing everything it can to stay on the track running the normal line.
They also have the ability to brake in much shorter distances after a long straight, so no need to dive bomb into a corner where the cars are going close to the same slow speed upon entering and the braking will be relatively similar, wait till you get that longer straight, stay behind the GT1 car if you cant pass on the straight and then just duck inside under braking as they can do it much easier.
There is always a way. Besides, GT1 cars arent the issue for P2 anyway, when was the last time they were actually in a battle for position that mattered?


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (.:RDriver)*

Depends on the rules. Remember Aston's first year at Le Mans Jimmy. Early into the race, they were running ahead of the LMP2 field and there was talk on Radio Le Mans that the ACO was going to penalize them because of that.


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By ([email protected])*

That's what I'm refering to. At Le Mans, SLC, and Road America, the GT1 cars are almost as fast as the Audi R10s down the straights. Hence, the agressive manuveres the LMP2 cars have made in recent times. At the the R10s can pass the GT1 cars down almost every straightaway-but only just at times.
The GT1 cars can outrun LMP2 cars once the strightaways go beyond a certian lenght, but have to brake sooner for corners, and the terminal speed in the corners are about the same speed most of the time, hence the LMP2 cars get bottled up in traffic worse than an LMP1 car, just due to the horsepower/torque difference.


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Depends on the rules. Remember Aston's first year at Le Mans Jimmy. Early into the race, they were running ahead of the LMP2 field and there was talk on Radio Le Mans that the ACO was going to penalize them because of that.

I dont recall that and I'd like to know why they would be penalized. Maybe for blocking the P2 cars if that were the case, but if they were not in an immediate fight, they should be able to let the P2 cars through. They wouldnt be penalized for simply going faster.
They did talk about penalizing them because they were running faster lap times in practice and qualifying than a GT1 was supposed to be allowed to run, but that had nothing to do with blocking or causing trouble with the P2 cars. Not sure if that is what you were referring to or not.
But the bottom line to both of you is I just dont buy that argument, plain and simple. You're the passing driver, figure out a way to get by safely...period. If you cant keep up on the straights, figure out a way to do it under braking or in the corners, if you're faster, you're faster.
If you cant get by, you drive your race and keep your competitors behind you. If they can somehow find a way by and you cant, then you shouldnt be leading to begin with.
All tracks offer advantages and disadvantages for certain cars. Deal with it. If at Utah you cant pass a GT1 car on the straights, find another way to do it. Otherwise sit back and wait for a pit stop a yellow or whatever it is you might think you need to get past.
I can see there being an issue down the Mulsanne at Le Mans for a P2 car, but a P2 can corner much faster than a GT1 car and therefore should be able to pass on the outside in the Porsche Curves or at least get right up on the tail of a GT1 car and be ready to out brake them going into the chicanes. Same thing if they are behind the cars on the Mulsanne, they should easily be able to catch up through Indianapolis and then outbreak them down into Arnage. 
There are a lot of options out there for P2 cars and while I know its a pain getting by cars that are faster than you on the straight and slower through the turns, it can be done. And the entire class is in the same boat, so it should not be affecting your race. To say it hurts them in competing with the Audis, well, so what, they arent racing with the Audis so it doesnt matter.
Good drivers deal with what they are given and are still good. These are the rules, race by them and the better cars and drivers will still go to the top.


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

AUDI FTW


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: When a Flying Lizard Slides By (.:RDriver)*

Also remember that the DBR9s were able to keep up with the Audi R8s at LM in 2005-and due to the ACO's restrictions, the Audi's were limited to only 192mph! So the Aston's were hitting 190 down the Mulsanne straight. And that's why the Corvettes and DBR9s are 35kgs over the ALMS weight limit at Le Mans-the ACO's "ideal" limit for a GT1 car is 3:55. The Corvettes sandbag and rum 3:55-3:56, where as the Astons run 3:57-3:58 to cover the fact that they were running 3:51 and 3:52 lap times!
There's no real way that the LMP2 cars can hope to hit 190 at Le Mans-they go 185mph tops.
So what if the LMP2 cars can corner better than a GT1 car when they can blow by them on a decent legnth straightaway? And hence the divebomb overtaking manuveres that the LMP2 cars have pulled that have PO'd the GT1 and especially GT2 teams. The LMP1 cars can have it both ways-they can outbrake/outcorner GT cars, and out run them on a straight.
And not counting the fuel mileage debate, how would one expect an LMP2 car to keep up with the Audis when they run near equal lap times on clear racetrack, but the LMP2 cars loose time(as much as an easy 1-3 second at tracks like Mosport) getting bottled up in traffic, due simply to the power/torque difference. And it will really hurt the Porsches, as the have the lowest torque figures of an LMP2 engine out there now at only 273 ft/lbs. A 1970s Cosworth DFV F1 engine-giving up nearly half a liter in displacement-can make that. The Zytek V8 makes 320-330, and the Judd DB makes amost 350. Not to mention that the Mazda/AER 4 cylinder makes almost 400ft/lbs. And the Acura V8 is probably up there with the Zytek and Judd engines.
Having a more manuverable car doesn't help if you don't have the driveability-namely having a lot of power and getting it to the ground.
I'll certianly bet that if traction control was still outlawed in the ALMS, that the Porsche guys will have an even harder time, as IMSA and the ACO already have restricted traction control so much that it doesn't do crap most of the time-I've never seen anyone save a car in the ALMS because of traction control in an event where they would've spun with out it.
Most of 2006, the Audi R10 didn't have TC, and the R8 never did. This showed up at Houston, where the R8 entered was 35kgs heavier than the other LMP1 cars and 160kgs heavier than the LMP2 cars. It still out ran all comes in practice sessions, and set the race's fastest lap-being overweight, with 50-60 less hp than the other LMP1 cars, and no TC(though to be fair, Dyson's Lolas didn't have TC either, and they were often faster than the RS Spyders).
I say we ban traction control, and well really see who's better off in traffic.


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