# All together now...Let's build a great 16v!!



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

Okay, based on this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3378627
I have found a VW to mod! I hope to pick it up in the next couple of days a 1983 Scirocco MKII that has apparently had an engine switch for a 1985 1.8. It is 500 miles away, so it might take a day of travel to get it.
The owner said that the engine lacked power, which he has attributed to low compression in one cylinder. I think it might be related to the swap not being done well but I won't know for a little while.
I have some questions and invite all you experts to offer your opinions on what I should do. I plan to take my time, and do it right. I will also have questions and hope to post pictures to chart progress.
I have a couple of preliminary questions:
Is there any chance that this car will have a 16v in it?
If I plan to do mods to a NA engine, should I use the 1.8 and rebuild it, or get something else.
Opinions please. All are welcome.
Oh and for a little classic eye candy...I thought seriously of getting this for a 1000.00:
http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-Vi...ck=-1



_Modified by PASHAT at 9:18 PM 8-21-2007_


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

I'm going to pick this car up tomorrow. Pictures will follow. No idea what I bought except that it is an 83 Scirocco with a 1.8 swapped in that the owner says has no power for some reason. Me and my boy are going to work on it. It will be a 17 hour trip to pick it up and bring it home, pretty much non-stop. 
More to follow.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

Hey...the current owner just sent me picts! I actually hadn't seen the car until now. It's a little dusty because its been in his garage for a year or two, but here it is...

















Still no idea what's under the hood....
HEY....Someone stole a windshield wiper!!!


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## frrtbkr (Aug 1, 2004)

Looks like an 8v. (16v usually has a kit)


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (frrtbkr)*

What kit?
If it doesn't have a 16v in it now.....it will!


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## rjc69 (Oct 10, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

THe lack of a drivers wiper is a common mod. They remove the drivers side, the reclock the passenger to look like the merc benz single wipers...Nothing to worry about. If it has had a swap, It could've had a 1.8l 16V upgrade. You won't know untill you lift the hood. Good luck, and keep us posted.....Rob...


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## misterwahoo (Feb 1, 2001)

*Re: (rjc69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rjc69* »_THe lack of a drivers wiper is a common mod. They remove the drivers side, the reclock the passenger to look like the merc benz single wipers...Nothing to worry about. 

'82's and early '83's had single wipers from the factory. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## frrtbkr (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

A body kit.

_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_What kit?
If it doesn't have a 16v in it now.....it will!


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Nice find. Is that color ehm, pink ?


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (volks25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volks25* »_Nice find. Is that color ehm, pink ? 

It is not pink. It is .. er..."Champagne"....Kind of a Silver Gold combo. 
And, just so that it is clear, if it were pink, *I'd* be MAN enough to drive it anyways..... 
Now, talk nice you guys.....The previous owner will be popping by to view what is happening with his first child.
Okay. Apparently it has a 1.8 in it, but it is, at present a 8v. I went to my friendly neighbourhood wrecker, after returning the rental tow vehicle after my 18 hour odyssey to pick this up. (I learned that you should determine where the numbers are on your speedometer BEFORE you set the cruise control and fly past the police at 120....that's km/hr for my friends down south...thankfully they were on their way to somewhere more important)
Anyway, back to the wrecker. I am going to do a full rebuild. The wrecker has a 2.0l 16v from a Passat that they would sell complete for 250.00. It is apparently blowing blue, and the cluster that is lying on the seat in the car shows 550,000 km.....
What do you think. Buy it? It's a 9A....would an ABA be better?
Will post picts.
Pink










_Modified by PASHAT at 2:08 PM 8-24-2007_


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (misterwahoo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *misterwahoo* »_
'82's and early '83's had single wipers from the factory. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Yup...Stock Euro style....


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## vwsquirrel (Dec 22, 2000)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

9a would be good, by blowing blue i suppose you mean burning oil. If I could find a 9a around here for 250 I would definitely buy it








An aba would be better for a turbo car or if you are going to be doing major bottom end work.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (vwsquirrel)*

you should be able to get a low milage aba for less than that. get the aba and turbo it. you will be about the same cost as trying to put a 16v into it. 

actually that 8v should be a low compression 8v. rebuild that, buy a turbo manifold, megasquirt, and a turbo from the wrecker. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
you need to get a scirocco 16v exhaust manifold and down pipe and a schirocco manifold if you are going to use the stock fuel system.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

No turbo. NA all the way!
I'm going to 'squirt it though.
I was thinking of putting some real injectors in 'er, as I will need them obviously for MS. So, as I understand the plan I need to get a good engine, put in a new intake/throttle body, port and polish the head, put some new cams in, put a new exhaust in and hook up the megasquirt.
I might try to get this engine running in the meantime. Not sure what is wrong with it yet, as it either has no gas or a bum fuel pump, or both.
I noticed that there was a cold start injector, but not much in the way of sensors.....what controls the cold start?
Anyway, I have to get a 16v....otherwise people will be kicking me off this forum!


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## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

that champagne is annoying to color match. my 86 was champagne before i flat blacked it. but hey, less exterior attention, more engine bay! have fun rewiring for your 2.0!







as for your cold start, it will be controlled by a temperature sensor on the water outlet that your upper rad hose is attached to. it's a 2-wire plug (in case you haven't found it yet, it's right inbetween cylinder 3 and 4 on the head). common problem to have non working 5th injector. a broken wire or bad ground to your 5th injector also could do it. do you have a bentley or a haynes manual? electrical tests and finding vacuum leaks will be your new hobby. don't give up! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheWinterBeater* »_ have fun rewiring for your 2.0!









I'm going to megasquirt the 16v so hopefully it will not be too much of a mess.
I took this thing for a spin tonight. Had NO power. I popped plug wires off one at a time and taught my son what a distributor shock felt like. Metal plug caps?? Pulling each of the spark plugs, except #2, would cause no change in the engine speed. Idles rough. I did a compression test and had 120, 130, 120 and 115, but I am not sure my compression tester is accurate. All the plugs seemed to have spark and each of the fuel distributor lines had gas to them. I will take a look at the injectors next.
This was a 1.8 swap and there are a few questionable wires. Not sure how this works....what exactly takes the signal from the temp sensor and controls the cold start? There is no ECU. A relay of some sort?
My first basic CIS!
It drives pretty well, but I am glad I didn't try to drive it 500 miles home!


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

So, I put the car back together today, and reconnected the plugs and wires after the compression test. Took it for a spin. It ran a wee bit rough but I had no problems with power at all. I could spin the tires on gravel and easily hit 4000 on the tach.
This seems much different than my test drive yesterday. I could barely keep it running...had to hold the throttle open or it would die. Today, it idled pretty nice.
Roger, (p.o) if you are out there watching this, I am wondering if you didn't have the plug wires in the wrong order? I would have driven it home if it had driven like it did today! 
Anyways, I threw 1/3 can of seafoam in the tank.
The ignition switch is broken, but I found I can get a new one for 10.00.
Now, I am looking for an engine to rebuild. I took a look at my Passat and how the engine mounted in the Scirocco, and the front engine mount is different. The Passat fits on a large rubber pad on the frame. The Scirocco has a long arm that fits into a small mount under the radiator.
Will a 16v mount into the Scirocco? I am thinking of a 16v 2.0l and a 02A transmission. There is a swapped in 8v 1.8 in it now, with a 020 transmission.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I took a look at some numbers. The head has 049 103 373B which I have found is a casting number and not an ETKA number, so I have no cross reference, but I believe that is a 1.6l head. It says 3ME to the right of that number, above the VW symbol. It has no other markings on it other than "Mexico"
I can see no obvious markings on the block at all, except the word "Germany" behind the distributor on the upper right side facing the engine. There might be some numbers on the back that I can't see due to the exhaust manifold.
I have also reviewed this picture, taken prior to me putting the plugs back in, and it appears that they were originally in the correct order. Not sure why it is running better. Perhaps it needed the "Italian Tune Up" that I gave it!


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## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I may be way off base here, but that water outlet between cylinders 1 and 2 is not what I had in my 82, 84, or 86 rocco, nor my 85 or 89 Jetta. Perhaps your right about it not being a 1.8 head. I also noticed you don't have the oil filter (for lack of a better term) spin-on-place with the antifreeze "cooler" (like it ever cooled the oil!) . Did the previous owner say what the engine was out of? I know he said 85...but...??? Anyhow, does the plate in your airbox move (when the car is off) smoothly when pulled gently upwards with a magnet? Also, I found on my 84 I had a pile of crap blocking the screens on the fuel pressure regulator on the front of the block (with the two banjo bolts). Could try checking your filters and FPR to see how freely your fuel is flowing, then check your injectors. They're super easy to pop up with a little pressure and/or a flat screwdriver. Turn the engine over with one injector in a glass bottle for spray pattern. New injectors are a relatively cheap, easy improvement for power. Just remember to get new o-rings with them. (or possibly there's a vacuum leak at the injectors and new o-rings alone would help) Like I said...vacuum leaks and electrical tests...


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## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*

Also, I honestly don't know how the temperature sensor on the upper rad hose outlet gets any message to the fifth injector.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheWinterBeater* »_ I found on my 84 I had a pile of crap blocking the screens on the fuel pressure regulator on the front of the block (with the two banjo bolts). 

Is that what that is on the front of the block with the fuel lines to it....and I thought it was a fuel pump! I'll open it up and take a look tomorrow.

_Quote, originally posted by *TheWinterBeater* »_check your injectors. They're super easy to pop up with a little pressure and/or a flat screwdriver.

They just pull up? Nothing holds them in but the seal? What do you pull on?
I have no idea what this engine is out of. I suspect a MK1 of some sort, based on the research that I did on that engine number.
I did check the fuel plate, and it seemed to move smoothly. One bolt on the top of it was quite loose, that also might have been part of the power problem.
I don't think I am going to spend a lot of time on this engine. I need a 16v to put in.


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
I have no idea what this engine is out of. I suspect a MK1 of some sort, based on the research that I did on that engine number.


Correct. It appears to be a 1.6 or 1.7 8v in all it's glory.








They were present in older dubs (pre 84)


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## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (volks25)*

Nothing holds them but the seal. Hard to believe, but they stay in there! What I did (not necessarily proper, just worked for me) was hold the braided line and pry gently upwards against the nut where the injector screws in. A little petroleum jelly to ease it back in. Watch your knuckles on the intake manifold. Do you have a Haynes, Bentley, or some manual for CIS engines? Even the Haynes is not bad for the Mk2 Scirocco.


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## PoorHouse (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*

I agree that looks like a 1.6 or 1.7. Here's some pics of a freshly rebuilt 83 GTI 1.8 in a 78 Rocco:
























I was in your situation a couple years ago when I bought my '77 Rabbit with the intent of swapping in a 16V. I got the car home, immediatly took it apart and have been rebuilding everything over the last 2 years. The 16V is now in but still not running. 
If I were doing it again, I would do things a little different.
Instead of taking everything apart immediately I would have gotten the exhisting 1.6 running well. That would have allowed me to sort any wiring issues in the exhisting harness. Then I would have driven it for awhile and sorted any suspension and braking issues. While doing that I would have sourced the 16V and rebuilt it at my leisure. Once I had everything working well on the car, I would THEN swap in the 16V. 
That would allow you to do things one system at a time. The way I did it has had the car off the road for a long time. And, now that it is getting close to drive, everything on the car needs to be sorted. Engine broken in, brakes broken in, ride height sorted, chassis wiring to sort, etc, etc, etc.
My 2 cents for what it's worth. 
See info on my car here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2912831
And, see the official 16V mk1 swap post here. I know you want to do MS, but this address engine mounts, trans, clutch, rad, etc.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1253124

Check out the Rocco forums too, bunch of knowledgeable guys in there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheWinterBeater* »_Also, I honestly don't know how the temperature sensor on the upper rad hose outlet gets any message to the fifth injector. 

I believe that there might be a circuit that comes off the starter, goes through the temp sensor if the car is cold, and fires the injector when the starter is cranking.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PoorHouse)*

Thanks. There is some extremely useful information in your links, and sage advice in your post. I play to get a 16v and rebuild it completely before putting it in.
How much power is that nice looking 8v putting out?
I need to make a decision about the transmission. Should I keep the 020 that is in the Scrirocco, or swap in a 02A?
I could bolt the 16v right to what is there, but swapping in would be a major hassle with different cables and the motor mounts won't work from either my passat or the rocco.....apparently I need one from a TDI with a 02A in it.... Some big headaches.
On the other hand, 020s are weak and suffer much more from SMS then the heavier duty 02A. I'm not looking to quaif it or anything. REALLY don't want to do another tranny rebuild!!!
What to do, what to do?
Thoughts, anyone?


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## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Top 3 things to keep in mind while building: Budget, Budget, Budget. Don't get ahead of yourself. Make sure everything you do leaves the option later of swapping in what you want. Like PoorHouse said, drive a well sorted lower power setup now while doing body, brakes, suspension. That way you won't rush your 16V setup. Get your 16V in with a transmission that's both affordable and snappy and see if a well-built beefy tranny is needed...but hey, I've never built a track or a show car. I have, however, had a car down for 6-7 months while I focussed on the minor details when the engine needed troubleshooting. Driveable beats comfortable anyday.


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## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*

What's your goal in a transmission? Pull hard right thru fifth or pull hard thru fourth then easy on the rpm's for cruising? Scirocco.org has a sweet page of tranny codes, ratios, etc.
http://scirocco.org/gears/


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (TheWinterBeater)*

Thanks for the thoughts, as always. I do have the luxury of time, but not the luxury of cash! I don't need to have this car running as I have two other vehicles licenced now and a third (the Passat) for sale, and a fourth that I could licence (the van).
I would like to know where I am going before I get started as it impacts on whether I buy a engine, an engine and tranny, or a parts vehicle with both an engine and a tranny that I want.


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## PoorHouse (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I stuck with the 020 trans. Cheap and plentiful, easy to swap, and able to handle up to 200 hp w/out a worry. Sure SMS was an issue, and people have blown them up, but a lot, a whole lot of people have used them in racing without a problem. 
I'm using the 2H that came with my car. I'll run that until I find someone selling a rebuilt unit with a Quaife for a good price. Usually see a couple a year on here.


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## PoorHouse (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_How much power is that nice looking 8v putting out?



Never dyno'd so I can't say, but he kept the build pretty mild in anticipation of the old school BAE turbo kit going on.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PoorHouse)*

I bought that 16v 2.0 9A engine today. I needed some parts off of it that I won't need when I MS it to try to fix my "other" car, and my wrecker agreed to knock 50.00 off if I got it ready for pulling myself, which I wanted to do anyways so that some monkey doesn't start cutting valuable hoses and lines and such with a torch to remove things....
So, with the parts that I need to fix my Passat that would have cost me at least 50.00, the cost on this engine effectively dropped to 150.00 and I have a spare set of injectors, DPR, Airflow plate....fuel pressure regulator...fuel plate potentiometer....lots of things, plus a well worn 16v top and bottom end.
I will post pictures as things progress.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Time to get started! I got my engine today. I will post pictures below of what I have. The first picture is a picture of what I have...the original 8v 1.6. The subsequent pictures are of the 16v that I plan to rebuilt and enhance.
What I plan to do is to MS the engine, and enhance the intake and the exhaust. The engine itself will be fully rebuilt, including new seals, mains, rods, pistons (if necessary) and rings.
So here are the questions I have, that I ask you to share your opinions on:
1. What do I still need to obtain and, where is a good place to obtain it?
2. What should I do next?
What I have in the car now:








A picture of the engine, as it arrived home in the back of my beater truck









Will I have to change this throttle body? To what?








A picture of it on the stand, ready to get to work on it


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

You will need the TB from a passat auto (has the tps)


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (volks25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volks25* »_You will need the TB from a passat auto (has the tps)

Thanks..... I thought so. Is the TB from a Passat big enough?
Edit: I need to rephrase this. I was wondering if there were options other than the Passat TB. I have one from an automatic, but am wondering if it will restrict air flow too much. I am thinking that I will need a 3" intake as that is what I have seen commonly. Will the Passat Auto TB work with that size of intake?


_Modified by PASHAT at 11:20 AM 9-12-2007_


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Please note that if anyone who is doing something similar has a question or wants to discuss something here, feel free to post your question on this thread. Maybe we can compile a nice, comprehensive thread about this. I will post LOTS of pictures, but I need everyone's help with input and information....
Here is a picture of the Passat Auto Throttle Body that I have. Should I use this? What are my choices?:


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

The teardown:
Picture 4: The engine on the stand, ready for the teardown. First, drain the oil!








Picture 5: Trying to hold the pulley and remove the four allen bolts. These allen bolts are nasty. I will replace them with regular hex bolts. I only got two out, and the other two rounded over. Yuck!









Picture 6: Removing the intake manifold. Someone was recently asking how to get at these allen bolts. Easy with a 6mm hex socket on an extension. However, you either have to split the upper and lower or take off the throttle body to get the manifold off.








Picture 7: Manifold off...time to pull the head. I loosened the tensioner pulley and slipped the belt off









Picture 8: Loosened the head bolts gradually and in proper sequence









Picture 9: Head off...what are the cylinders like? Seem to be in good shape. Pistons look good too.








Picture 10: View of cylinders....smooth and good.








Picture 11: Other side of cylinder walls








Picture 12: Time to pull the oil pan. Things look good here too. No crap in the bottom.








I then removed the oil pump, the oil filter mounting, the oil gear cover and oil gear, the plastic housing for block coolant and basically everything on the outer side of the block. I broke one waterpump bolt.
Unlucky Picture 13: I was trying to remove the crank pulley and got a bad feeling. It felt soft and I didn't want to really reef on it until I was sure that I was going in the right direction. So this is how I left it for the night.









In terms of my end goal of a performance NA engine for my Scirocco, do I do a standard rebuild of the bottom end? Rings, rods, mains...? Any suggestions, opinions or guidance on this out there? 



_Modified by PASHAT at 9:11 PM 9-12-2007_


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Got it....Just took a little force on the breaker bar once I was confident I was going in the right direction









So....Stock OEM rebuild of the lower end? What's next?


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

sound like you got it out. righty tighty lefty loosy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (volks25)*

Am still looking for opinions on whether I should just do a stock rebuild of the bottom end. I am leaning towards doing that but want to make sure that I am not missing something prior to ordering the parts. 
I want to be cost effective and not spend money on things that have limited effect on power.
Let me know what you think!


_Modified by PASHAT at 7:50 PM 9-13-2007_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

first check the tops of you cylinders to make sure they are in spec before you order parts. I suggest taking the bare block down to the machine shop for a cylinder hone, acid tank cleaning, and a cleanup deck on the head surface


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## PoorHouse (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Take the crank down to and have it checked and polished.
I would be tempted to do an overbore having everything apart. Wait, that's what I ended up having done.


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## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

This looks like its going to be a fun one. Just like mine!


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Millennium Falcon)*

I took a look at the cylinders today. As I indicated, I got this engine from the local wrecker, who quoted me a price of $250.00 for it. Normally this engine would go for two to three times that, but this one was blowing blue according to the wrecker. When I looked at the vehicle that this engine was in, there was in instrument cluster sitting on the seat, showing over half a million kms. So I wasn’t expecting much from this engine, and planned for a major rebuild.
Anyway, I got my cylinder bore gauge and set it for the original bore of 82.50mm
Picture 15 








Then I checked the fore/aft measurement and it was over spec by 1 thou. On an engine with half a million km on it????
Picture 16








So I checked the lateral measurement. It was about 2 thou. over spec. What the heck? Shouldn’t the wear be more fore and aft then laterally?
Picture 17








I was checking the measurement at the top of the cylinder:
Picture 18.








All of the cylinders had pretty much identical measurements. Cylinder 4 was about .5 thou. less in each direction.
I also measured at the base of the cylinder, just above the bottom of the piston stroke, and the measurements were almost exactly the same as at the top….2 thou wear laterally and 1 thou wear fore/aft.
Look at the cross hatch that is remaining. Someone changed the oil regularly on this car!
Picture 19








The only rod bearing showed copper….the one on the bottom right which is the top rod bearing from #4.. The rest seemed to be in relatively decent shape.
Picture 20








Then I removed the intermediate shaft….Do you think ALL 9a engines have calved their intermediate shaft bearing?
Picture 21








The main bearing were in fantastic shape:
Picture 22








Pistons look good to me. What do you think?
Picture 23.








So, here are my thoughts. No way I am going to bore this engine with so little wear. Clean up the block, hone it lightly, and rebuild the bottom end to OEM. I do not plan to replace the pistons, (at $250.00 each). New rods, new mains, new rings, new intermediate shaft bearings, new seals.
I would like to keep the budget on the engine rebuild and mod on this project to about $3000.00. Rebuilding the bottom end to spec will cost $600.00 if I don’t replace the pistons.
Those are my thoughts….let me know yours.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

check the rebuild kits at rpmmachine.com http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_check the rebuild kits at rpmmachine.com http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Thanks for the tip. I will look into it. 
The price of $600.00 includes Glyco Bearings and other fairly good components, a few things for the head, like guides and seals, new rod bolts, new flywheel bolts....the whole enchilada. It is also free shipping.
I will still look into your tip though....
Thanks.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

oops....bad gauge reading. I believe each of the notches is actually .5 thousands of an inch, (not 1 thou) as there are 10 notches to the '5' mark. That means that on each of these cylinders there is .5 mm of wear fore and aft and 1 mm of wear laterally?
Isn't that a wee bit odd? This engine is supposed to have 1/2 a million km on it......thats 320,000 miles!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
Thanks for the tip. I will look into it. 
The price of $600.00 includes Glyco Bearings and other fairly good components, a few things for the head, like guides and seals, new rod bolts, new flywheel bolts....the whole enchilada. It is also free shipping.
I will still look into your tip though....
Thanks.

for the $600 price tag @ rpmmachine you get new pistons on top of all the bearings, rings, and seals. best bang for the buck when you overbore


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_
best bang for the buck when you overbore

That is a great deal.....Pistons alone would cost me $250.00 each here. But, since mine is not in need of an overbore (is it?) I would likely not need pistons.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Okay. Decision time.
I have honed my cylinders with a ball cylinder hone and am ready to put the engine back together.
Weeblebiker has posted a link to a complete engine rebuild set, including pistons....a great deal. However, I am a wee bit worried about using slightly lower quality bearings and rings in this rebuild. 
I have been considering Goetze rings and Glyco rod and main bearings. In the last rebuild I did, I used KOLBENSCHMIDT bearings and I noted that they did NOT have the 360 degree groove on the #4 main bearing. 
I also know better than to use integrated thrust washers







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif








I have found decent prices on Autotechparts.com for the parts I am looking for, and they sell Goetze and Glyco. (But no main bearings listed??







) I have also looked at Canadiancarparts.com, which offers free shipping, has many needed parts including rod bolts etc. but is a little more than Autotech.
Here are my questions.. (Don't just look! EXPRESS your opinions!)
Should I only look at Glyco and Goetze, or does it really matter? (In which case the link provided by Weeblebiker seems a great deal)
Where else should I consider getting my parts from if I want high quality at a good price?


----------



## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

there are thousands of great 16v's around, good luck building another 1


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (skillton)*

Okay...I took measurements of my crank tonight, to get an idea of wear. I used very-near calipers but the readings at least told me if I was close to spec.
On the mains, the measurements were 2.125, 2.124, 2.125, 2.125 and 2.125. That is pretty much to spec, allthough #2 main might be about 1/2 a thou under spec. 
The measurements on the rods were all 1.878 and this appears to be in spec.
I guess I should get the crank polished up and get those parts ordered for the bottom end rebuild. 
Still welcoming any more thoughts or opinions on what to do, what parts to purchase, and where to get them from


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

just use a 6 piece main thrust bearing with the washers. you can get just # 3 main from the dealer for under $50 and toss the 2 piece main thrust that normally come in the kits.
yah the first rebuild is fun. 
it gets kinda old after 3 though


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

Are you going to reuse the factory rod bolts or are you going to get new oem ot ARP bolts. The factory bolts are stretch, and should be replaced, but you should really resize the connecting Rods after replacing the bolts. I know that people have rolled the dice on the rod bolts, and reused them.
Just some food for thought.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_just use a 6 piece main thrust bearing with the washers.

 
The Glyco set that I am looking at comes with two mains and four separate thrust washers.... That would be a 6 piece main?


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_yah the first rebuild is fun. 


This is my second, but I learned a LOT since the first one.....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (Scirocco53)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco53* »_ but you should really resize the connecting Rods after replacing the bolts. 

I was planning on ordering new rod bolts, but noticed the old ones appeared to be pressed in. I take it that pressing out the bolts could (will?) distort the rod dimensions where the bearing sits? That is news to me and a point I probably would have overlooked.
So, if I replace the bolts I need to take the rods t to the machine shop to be precisely sized? Will this mean that I will not be able to use standard bearings?


----------



## rhussjr (Aug 7, 2000)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

The botls are pressed in (doesn't take much to knowck them out or but them back in). I would have a machine shop to do the rods just to make sure they are in spec. You will be able to use standard bearings. Only if your crank journals are ground, will you need undersized bearings.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (rhussjr)*

I welcome any comments on this. 
Here is what I am planning on purchasing (Canadian Dollars...not that it matters these days!) I am also planning on buying a set of Goetze rings from Autotech as they are less expensive than from here and this supplier only has one set of rings in stock. (for one cylinder)
Valve Guide 2.80	0.00	44.80
Cyl. Head Bolt Set 16.05	0.00	16.05
Valve Cover Gasket Set 13.57	0.00	13.57
Timing Belt Kit 62.99	0.00	62.99
Glyco Rod Bearing Set 37.99	0.00	37.99
Connecting Rod Nut 0.65	0.00	5.20
Oil Cooler Hose 2.47	0.00	2.47
Connecting Rod Bolt 7.14	2.34	0.00	18.72
Valve Keeper Nla 04/07 0.41	0.00	4.10
Goethe Cylinder Head Gasket 29.99	0.00	29.99
Oil Filter Stand Gasket 1.61	0.00	1.61
Timing Chain 9.51	0.00	9.51
Goethe Crankcase Gasket Set 59.99	0.00	59.99
Glyco Main Bearing Set Main Brg Set W/o Thrust 38.99	0.00	38.99
Thrust Bearing 13.35	0.00	13.35
Pressure Plate Bolt 1.00	0.66	0.00	6.60
Cooling Hose Flange .72	0.00	5.72
Core Charges:	0.00
Total Weight ( 9.66 pounds ):	
Additional Shipping Charge: 0.00	Shipping - UPS Ground Residential:	0.00
Subtotal before tax:	371.65
GST: 22.30
Tax Total: 22.30
Order Total:	393.95






_Modified by PASHAT at 12:46 PM 9-19-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

My pistons have some marks/slight scrapes on the sides that I am concerned about. I am going to have someone look at them before deciding what to do in the rebuild. There are corresponding VERY slight scrapes in the cylinder walls, even after using the ball hone. These cannot be felt with a fingernail.
Any comments on whether/how these marks should be dealt with?

In the meantime, I have started a new thread to deal with some head work issues:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3458261


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

Argghh. 
I have tried a couple of US supplier to get my Goetze rings but none are shipping to Canada. The price seems to be between 100-120 a set, which is quite a bit less than I can get them for here.
Anyone know some good places in the US that sell Goetze rings at a reasonable price that also ship to Canada?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

Update:
I got a cylinder hone and honed the cylinders. I had used a ball hone, but noticed that there was a very slight rub mark up each of the cylinders where the skirts would rub (both front and back). Vertical lines are bad so I honed them out a little bit more thoroughly.
I think I have a supplier in the US who will ship to a friend down south, who can ship the rings to me.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

I have rings readily available. The brand is Cofap, and they are $120.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (Scirocco53)*

Thanks.....I really want to get Goetze rings and I placed an order for them. I can get other brands of rings here without too much problem.
I went to my machinest and asked about having the cylinders honed properly and perfectly round. He told me to put the fixed hone through would be $7.50 per cylinder, which would make them perfectly round and a consistent size from end to end.....
THAT was a no brainer! 
My orders for parts for the bottom end should be on their way....


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_I went to my machinest and asked about having the cylinders honed properly and perfectly round. He told me to put the fixed hone through would be $7.50 per cylinder, which would make them perfectly round and a consistent size from end to end.........

You will NOT get a cylinder bore perfectly round by honing.
You will not even get a cylinder bore perfectly round by machining
unless.....
you use a decking plate that is torqued to the block at the factory specified torque settings.
Every block distorts when the head is bolted on. I had a decking plate made and use it now every time i build a motor because most machine shops dont have a plate for a VW block. It cost me over $300 between the steel and the machining - but the last motor that I built pegged the 250psi compression gauge when i tested it before start-up.
If your machinist states that he will get it perfectly round without using a plate made for that block - he is lying!!!
I can get you Goetze rings any time you want....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
Every block distorts when the head is bolted on. 

When I was talking to the machinest, I was explaining to them that I found it weird that there was more wear side to side than there was from front to back, which I thought was backwards. (As I explained in a previous post in this thread). He did explain that was likely due to the distortion of the cylinders now that the head was removed.
I have a fixed cylinder hone that goes on a drill, like a Lisle 15000 (not the one that looks like a three prong brake hone...the one you dial out to fit the cylinder. 
I guess that I cannot expect truly round at that price. But they use a fixed hone that is one a machine that moves the hone straight and consistently from end to end. My point was that it will likely be a LOT better/ more consistent and rounder than I can do and was relatively cheap and wanted people to be aware of this option.
It is valuable to know that there are head substitutes?? that can be bolted on prior to honing. I had not heard of that. Thanks for letting us know. I value your input.
Sending you an IM about the rings. I THINK I have that sorted out.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
I have a fixed cylinder hone that goes on a drill, like a Lisle 15000 (not the one that looks like a three prong brake hone...the one you dial out to fit the cylinder. 
I guess that I cannot expect truly round at that price. But they use a fixed hone that is one a machine that moves the hone straight and consistently from end to end. My point was that it will likely be a LOT better/ more consistent and rounder than I can do and was relatively cheap and wanted people to be aware of this option.

Not to spoil your party, but just 2 notes of caution.
1) unless he is honing the block to the next oversize I would be worried that you are exceeding the piston to bore clearance specs. (found in the Bentley) especially since you already seem to have a sloppy fit.
2) I have a Sunnen hone - most likely the exact same one the machinist uses. Its great to just finish a machined bore, or knock the glaze off the surface of a gently used block, but it will NEVER make an oval worn bore round! 
Note of experience: I used my hone on a 9A block with 200K on it, put new Total Seal rings on the pistons and the motor sucked oil right past the rings.
Cost of regrinding the crank after it spun a bearing is what convinced me to never put another used block together without boring it unless the milleage is well under 100K.
it really sounds like you either need a block with less wear, or bite the big bullet and buy some Wiseco's and bore the block.
PS - re-measure your bores about 1" from the top....


_Modified by OhioBenz at 1:52 AM 10-13-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (OhioBenz)*

You might be correct. I have to check the bore when it gets back. According to Bentley, the tolerance is 3 thou. I was at one prior to the honing going side to side, and .5 going front to back.


----------



## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

I just got done tearing mine apart as well, I'm doing a 16V project in my A1 Rabbit. My pistons look the exact same. I also have some wear on the cylinder walls. Im going to end up boring my cylinders .002-.004". Still, this seemes to be a fun project for both of us!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Millennium Falcon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Millennium Falcon* »_I just got done tearing mine apart as well, I'm doing a 16V project in my A1 Rabbit. 

Feel free to post pics or anything else you want here. I don't believe in thread ownership.
What were the original measurements of your cylinders? Do you know?
Are you planning on putting oversized pistons in? If not, .004 will be outside of spec. Tolerance is .0031, I believe.
I am waiting to see what mine measure out at after the honing. If they are more than .0015, I will consider oversized pistons.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (Millennium Falcon)*

most pistons come in .020 (.5mm) or .040 (1.0mm) oversizes.
Check on the Wiseco site for affordable forged pistons!
http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Cat...n.pdf


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_most pistons come in .020 (.5mm) or .040 (1.0mm) oversizes.
Check on the Wiseco site for affordable forged pistons!


Domed 9A .2 oversize with a 10.5:1 cr work out to 630.00.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

they can be had for $500


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

Okay, Got my block back and the machinest said that with the rehone it was .002 thou over at the top of the cylinder, and .001 thou at the bottom, and that was consistent across all four cyliders now. I have until .003 before a rebore. He said that the actual measurement was 3.250 at the top and 3.249 at the bottom.
He also polished the crank and it is all ready to go. Some of my parts arrived today. 
Looks like progress will be happening soon!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

Have my parts for putting this back together, except the two that I will need first...rings (Ordered from Autoparts Warehouse and arrived at my US friend's place today AND MATT WILL SHIP THEM QUICKLY, I know!) and the things I REALLY need first...intermediate shaft bearings that are backordered but should be here within a week.
Will start posting picts of the rebuild soon. I have posted some ads looking for things I need like camshafts. There are a few out there....
Any recommendations on duration that I should be looking for. I want something pretty peppy off the line, but don't plan on track racing too much if at all....


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: All together now...Let's build a great 16v!! (PASHAT)*

i just put a set of 268/276 in my sons GLI...pretty nice!
IM me and we can talk about price etc


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## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

Funny, I'm doing a very similar build to this right now, but I never saw this topic!
I'm a sucker for punishment, so I've told the machinist to do EVERYTHING. I want it to basically be a new new bottom end when I get it back.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_Funny, I'm doing a very similar build to this right now, but I never saw this topic!


I've been hiding!
Hey....So I go to the wrecker yesterday with my list of parts thinking everything will be way overpriced....we only have one wrecker and they KNOW that we only have one wrecker.
Anyway...I do the old "I'm just looking for some crappy parts and don't want to pay a lot because it's just for a project with my kids and I'm poor....Have a head for a 16v that you would part with cheap"?
Now, normally, by wrecker says "Nope. You have to buy the whole engine and it will cost $600.00"
But to my amazement, the guy says "Yup" Got a head. You take it off $60.00." So I say...(thinking ITBs) "will you include the lower intake manifold?" He says "Sure" So I say "And the oil cooler that I need" He says "Yup" And I grab my tools and take a stroll amongst the tin to car 8043....a Passat that hit something hard on its drivers side.
Anyway, I get the head off, and look into the cylinders and know why they were prepared to sell me just the head. Looks like this head had some port work done on it:








Look! That is about a cup of dirt and small gravel in the cylinders. This is taken RIGHT after I pull the head.
(Remember that thread about the guy that decided to shorten the port and polish work by spraying sandblasting sand in his intake when the car was running......I think this was his car!)
How the heck did all that crap get in the engine!!!
Here's a closer shot:








Yuck. What the heck did I buy? That HAD to have come through the intakes....
Here's a picture of the valve side of the head. Ugly and corroded, but should be able to clean it up...I hope....








Oh....Look. Someone hadn't finished the 'sandblast through the intake ports' job. (Don't try this at home, kids!)








Is that ugly or what! Think my valves and seats will be good?
Okay. THIS is a valuable picture. Did you know that you can get the exhaust camshaft off WITHOUT removing the cam gear. It usually gets stuck around the lip on the head so you can't pull it straight up, but if you hold it just like this:








it will squeak off. You have to hold it JUST like that. There is no other way. Trust me. I spent quite a bit of time learning that.
Here is the head stripped and ready to do something with. Not sure what. Might find out how much it weighs to ship it to XKROMX for porting, or might see what it is like to do a DIY port and polish job. 









So, I have a question for you engine rebuilding folk. I was trying to remember if I replaced the camshaft bearings when I did my last 16v rebuild. I could not, for the life of me, recall doing so. Now, when I do a rebuild like that, I replace ALL worn parts. So, for all those in the know, here's a question for you....DID I replace the camshaft bearings in the 16v head? (Hint: Take a look at that last picture)


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

the 16v head has no replaceable camshaft bearings.....
if a bearing is trashed the only choices are a) trash it or b) have it welded and re-machined - at which point another head is probly cheaper. so back to option A


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

Yeah....no wonder I couldn't recall replacing them....there aren't any! (To me...that's just weird!)
I have started a new thread on camshafts, because I need help figuring this out. I hope all will feel free to contribute!
Here's the link:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3517487


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Boo for broken ****.....*

Well.... My block was ready. 
Picture 24








Back from the machinest with the bore cross hatched:
Picture 25








Couldn't you just look at nice work like this all day!
Picture 26








Now, don't give me no 'tude about the little bit of surface rust that developed. I am working on it.
First job...new intermediate bearings.
The outer one was shot:
Picture 27








So was the inner one:
Picture 28








And for any of those who think that the outer one wears and the inner one really doesn't need to be replaced....take another look:
Picture 29








I got Sealed Power, which are Federal Mogul camshaft bearings. These are the bearings that VW says don't exist and you have to buy a new block to get. Take down that number....1726M
Picture 30








There are two in a box, and they are different sizes. The inner one is smaller.
Picture 31








When I did this the last time, I had a bearing driver that was almost exactly the right size that I taped up. I didn't have that bearing driver, so I looked around for something and said. Hey...why not use the shaft....the fit is perfect. So I wrapped it with tape and tried to use it to drive the new inner one in and at the same time drive the old inner one out.
Picture 32








The problem, when putting in this bearing, is that there is a oil journal hole in the bearing that you have to line up with the block. Were it not for that little detail, this would be a pretty easy job. But you have to get it lined up just right. The problem is, that when you put the bearing pusher (in my case the intermediate shaft) into position, you can no longer SEE whether everything is lined up, and things have a tendency to move. So the bearing has to be put into place first, and then pushed straight in.
Picture 33








This job is a Witch with a capital "B".....what a nightmare. Everytime I got the shaft into place either the tape would fall off or things would move. I did get part of the bearing shell out, but couldn't get the rest out.
Picture 34








I spent about half an hour on this and then gave up. I then said to heck with trying to push one bearing with the other, and used a long steel rod to remove the old bearing. I then switched to a hard dowel (not hard enough but it did work) to push the new bearing in place.
Picture 35








Once it was in place, I shined a light up the hole from the outside and made sure it was properly lined up. It was.
Picture 36









I then turned to the outer bearing. You know...the "easy" one. I had removed this bearing earlier to give myself lots of room to work on the inner one, and had started to drive it in with a rubber mallet. But I kept hitting the side of the block because the hole is recessed. So, I looked around for something to use and spied the intermediate shaft. There was a lip on the intermediate shaft that would prevent me from driving too far. So, I gave it a couple of wacks with the rubber mallet. It didn't seem to be working.
It was here that "I did a dumb thing". I grabbed my metal hammer and gave it a few light taps. NEVER HIT CAST WITH A METAL HAMMER. I didn't hit it hard but I felt it really move. I waited for the lip of the intermediate shaft to catch, but could see the bearing coming out the other side. "Darn" I said, (with a capital "S") Something was wrong. I pulled the shaft out and two pieces of metal that had not existed before fell out of the hole.
Picture 37








"BOOO" for broken crap! That was a perfectly good intermediate shaft. And WHERE does one get another. I don't think I could use this as that lip should prevent too much pressure on the oil pump gear at the other end. BOOO for broken crap!
I contacted Retro Mike, a star of used stuff for VWs in Canada, and he thinks he has one at a very reasonable price. I hope so.
Good thing I don't need this shaft for a while and I can continue with the rebuild. I put it all down and walked away after putting the bearing in right.
Next should be pistons....or should I do the camshaft first. Will have to REALLY scrub this engine prior to that.
BOOO FOR BROKEN CRAP!!!


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (PASHAT)*

All I can say is - you scare me!!!
You should have had your machinist deck the block (where the head sits) while he had it. And - look at all the rust on those main bearing bores - and inside of the oil holes.....








I hate to say it - doing it right vs just doing it is a big difference, both in costs, end results and longevity after its all done.
Every corner you cut, no matter for what reason, will cost you something in the end. There's only a few on here that have been building motors for as long as i have (coming up on 40yrs) but i see you consistently follow the advice from those that have a lot less experience than some of the other posters, including myself.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (OhioBenz)*

Hey Ohio:
I appreciate your advice and direction. As I have stated before...I really value your input. I wish someone had told me to deck the head surface BEFORE I got it back.
That rust bothers me too. Due to the problems that I had getting the rings for this, the block sat for a couple of weeks. I have not washed it up as of yet and that rust, as bad as it looks, will completely rub off with a finger. 
I plan to work on this over the weekend. I have all the parts. You have all the pictures. So, given all of this, what should I do next. My plan is to clean that block right up, washing it thoroughly with solvent. I will check the head surface to ensure that it is true. I plan to install the pistons and install the crank using new rod bolts/nuts and new bearings. I want to get some oil in it this weekend. I have all new gaskets to put on it.
I will take photos of everything. Feel free to comment.
Thanks again for your input.


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (PASHAT)*

Get the rust on the finished surfaces taken care of immediately. The longer it sits the worse it pits. Call around your local engine builders/machine shops (even the v8 shops) for one that can put in the bearings. Most of them have the bearing tool to do this. 10-20 bucks and they should knock it out in 5-10 min.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (rivethead)*

I am not sure what bearings need a tool to install? Don't rods/mains just slip into the bearing caps/blocks?
I will deal with the rust tomorrow. No pitting yet just stained the surface a wee bit. I'll show picts....it looks worse than it is....


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (PASHAT)*

If you want any decent static compression with these stock pistons.
You need to check your piston to head clearance,should be between 0,8-1,0mm
Also shave your head as much as possible,all the way down to the edge of the intake valve seat.
This is very important if you want to gain as much as possible from a upgraded camshaft
You might run into a interference problem between piston and intake valve by doing this,but it only requires minor grinding off the valve pockets
You should absolutely invest in a adjustable cam gear,and internal adjustable chain sprockets
You would be surprised how poor internal alignment some of the performance cams have (not gonna tell which brand)
Also make sure to resize your rods,weight adjustment of rods and pistons are probably something you can do yourself (if you have a nice scale)
End to end weight adjustment of the rods are not so important,most important is that they have the same total weight.


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (NORSK)*

I ment on the intermediate shaft bearings. 
A degree wheel is a nice thing to have -


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (rivethead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rivethead* »_I ment on the intermediate shaft bearings. 


Thanks. They are in....and I now have a perfectly sized (EX intermediate shaft) bearing installer.
My plan is to get the engine rebuilt and back together with the option to do more later. If I have to reinstall a different head later, that to me is one hour job. However, if I have to deck the BLOCK I am not going to be a happy camper. I bought the head that you see in the photo above...the real ugly one...to experiment with. If my port and polish work sucks, I am out the time and $40.00 which is what the trashed head cost me.
I will likely not put a degree wheel on now, because I don't have to. I haven't even found camshafts yet, and might not for six months. I am in no rush. It is starting to snow here. My only priority is to get this bottom end rebuilt and get some oil in it due to that rust issue.
I will make mistakes. You will point them out. I am okay with that. I will post LOTS of pictures so that you can clearly see my mistakes. I would prefer getting prevention advice to "oops...now you've screwed it up" but I will take whatever.
Most peoples goals are different than mine. They want the car. I want the learning experience and am prepared to make mistakes to get educated. I will post all so that those who come along later and read this WILL be able to get "THE car!"
You are free to be







or







or







or







or even







. Any participation is welcome.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: It's started*

Could you explain the process of sizing your rods and pistons. I do have a very nice scale.
Oh....and I would REALLY like comments on those pistons. The skirts have slight marks in them...nothing you can feel or anything. The bores had corresponding marks, but they have been honed out. 
I really DON'T want to buy new pistons for this project. Will I be in serious problem if I use those pistons?
Norsk...IM me the brand with the alignment problems


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: It's started (PASHAT)*

Resizing your rods is not something you can do in your garage unless you have a mill and a sunnen cross grinder








Weight adjustment can be done,simply find the lightest piston and grind the other pistons down to the same exact weight as the lightest one (grind inside of the piston ofcourse







)
On the rods it is a bit more complicated,since the best result are if they have the same total weight AND end to end weight
(which is a PITA to do with stock rods cuz of huge variations in shape of the rod) ,but like i told you alot is achieved if you can bring the rods down to the same total weight,best is to grind the rod ends
Well,has the pistons been measured? that is the only thing that can tell you if they can be used or not.
If the bore/piston is out of tolerance this engine is going to be a "smoker" and wear out your new rings in a short time cuz of piston slap.
I am not sure if i understand the purpose of this engine build (even though you have explained your goals)
Decking your block won't ruin your engine,all blocks has a deck height tolerance and all you have to do is to bring this tolerance down to the minimum
If you measure this with the thinnest head gasket if i remember correctly is the ABF,then you have a few tenths of a mm to bring back with another head gasket if you decide to rebore and install new pistons with MAYBE a smaller piston/head clearance later
You don't want to use adjustable gear/sprockets because you don't need to? 
Sure,the engine will run without it
Questin is,how will it run








Nope,i will not pm you the cam brands


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: It's started (NORSK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_
I am not sure if i understand the purpose of this engine build (even though you have explained your goals)


The purpose of this engine rebuild is, firstly, as a learning experience. I would, secondly, also like to at the end have a vehicle that is much more of a street machine then a track machine. It is also just a project between me and my sons. 

_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_
Decking your block won't ruin your engine,all blocks has a deck height tolerance and all you have to do is to bring this tolerance down to the minimum


I was unaware of deckng a block to get more compression. I had planned to leave most of the block stock mostly for financial reasons. Everyone seemed to suggest that the bang for the buck was in flow, not compression. 
That being said, I might have gone the route of decking the block had it been suggested prior to me getting my block back. Timing is an issue. It is getting cold here. I am concerned about that rust that showed up within a week or two of the cross hatching. I had planned to put this engine together this weekend. All the parts are here, the weather will do, and I have the time set aside. 

Should I change my plans on going forward today in order to deck the block? Is it that important? Or should I save that process for the next rebuild, having learned that it would have been better? 

_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_
You don't want to use adjustable gear/sprockets because you don't need to? 


I did not express myself properly. What I meant was that I do not need to do that NOW. I have to get this engine back together, put a head on it (I will be replacing the stock head for the time being just as a cover over winter), get some oil in it and it will not be finished until Spring. That means I will likely not be installing cams in the head until next spring. 
I was led to understand that an adjustable cam gear is not really necessary, but remember, I know nothing about this. You are suggesting that it is more important and I am listening.
The resurfacing of the walls have left the walls .001 over stock at the bottom and .002 over at the top. The specs allow for just over .003, so I am within specs on this engine as far as the bore goes. I had planned to measure the pistons prior to re-ringing them. If they are out of spec I will replace them before going ahead, regardless of the delay and the weather.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: It's started (NORSK)*

Well....LOT's is happening. I measured the pistons at the base of the skirts and they are within spec. Wear spec is .004 from new and my wear is about .002 or .003.
I have cleaned two of the pistons. This is a LONG hard stupid job that is very difficult to do exceedingly well. Knowing all I know now, I should have bought that complete rebuild set including the new pistons that was mentioned by Weeblebiker, taken the pistons, and sold the rest off, bought OEM to replace what I sold. 
I have some important information for rebuilders. First of all, the Bentley is confusing as to whether the groove/step on the inside of the second compression ring goes up or down....It goes UP. Also, on the first compression ring it is very difficult on the NEW rings to tell which side is top. On the old rings the top is clearly marked and still easy to see. I found on the GOETHE rings that the TOP marking is almost invisible...you have to hold it up to the light JUST the right way to see it. 
Will follow up with plenty of pictures for all you critics out there!








Two pistons are done...two to go.
Oh...and I have replaced the rod bolts. Whoever posted recently about doing that without removing the pistons...







.....how the HECK would you drive the bolts into place from the bottom? They were hard to get in, requiring a considerable force. I can't imagine that you could just use turing the nuts to pull the bolts into position can be done without considerable risk....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: It's started (PASHAT)*

Okay, first, for all you naysayers…that “rust” looked worse than it was. I could basically just wipe it off and once I did, the surfaces were fine:
Picture 38









The next job is to measure the pistons. They were 82.45 to 82.47mm. This is within spec.
Picture 39









Cleaning these pistons was not worth it, but had to be done. As I stated previously, given the wear and to spend an hour cleaning each piston, and the cost of the rings, it was not worth it to re-use the pistons. But that was the bed I made, so clean I did. It is AMAZING how much gunk there is in each piston ring groove. What you see below on my knee is just the start of cleaning one piston. I used an old ring to clean each of the groove, using a oil ring for the lowest groove, and then using the correct size compression ring for the compression ring grooves. I moved slowly examining the groove in the light and making sure that all of the gunk was removed. I wanted to be able to see the aluminum on the bottom and sides. After cleaning them fairly well dry, I cleaned them more after soaking them and washing them in solvent. It is SO important to clean these grooves to make sure that they don’t gunk up and cause your rings to get stuck. 
Picture 40









I got confused as to which way the inner step goes on the larger compression ring….up or down, so I checked on a piston that I had not yet dissembled. It goes up as you can see if you look carefully at this picture. The pistons were quite dirty and gunked up. 
Picture 41








Here is what they looked like when they were close to clean.
Picture 42








Here are the new rings. OEM Goetze
Picture 43









I installed all new rod bolts on each of the rods. I did this by using a long punch to knock them in, on a piece of hard wood with the rod caps on. I found that by using a short punch there was a risk of hitting the piston skirt. I could have removed the piston and done it without risk.

Picture 44 









The oil rings were not marked up or down, but there was a “K” on one side, so I put that up on all the rings. The lower compression rings were clearly marked TOP as seen in picture 45. 
Picture 45








It is important to put break in oil on the walls of the cylinders, so I did that. We moved it around with the pistons and actually ended up putting quite a bit more on than what is shown here. I had washed the heck out of the block prior to this, to remove any and all grit and dust.
Picture 46









Putting the pistons into place. I carefully aligned the grooves so that they were all opposite each other
Picture 47











_Modified by PASHAT at 6:34 PM 11-10-2007_


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

The ring gaps should be aligned 120* out from each other, so that no 2 line up.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

so which direction did you turn the crank pully bolt? i am stuck on it with my engine and am trying to wedge in wooden blocks between the crank and the block wall. clockwise or counterclockwise?


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

reading your write up, i find it very usefull, and i am learning from your mistakes now, without paying for them, so thank you for your contribution. as i am myself in exactly the same rebuild. one thing i really don't get if you took the block to the shop weren't they supposed to paint with primer? that rust is feelable across the internet, it just hurts my soul.
Good luck! i will be following your topic!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_so which direction did you turn the crank pully bolt? i am stuck on it with my engine and am trying to wedge in wooden blocks between the crank and the block wall. clockwise or counterclockwise?

It removes like a normal bolt...Counter clockwise.
Hey....No learning from my mistakes without paying for them!!! I DO have a paypal account!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Okay....Manfred....before you go any further you have to send cash, because you are about to learn from another mistake....






















If you are not sure how much to send, IM me.
I went to continue installing the rings. I needed a good ring compressor and did not have one. So I went to town and bought one. I had one before....I was sure of it. Anyway...brand new one.
I pulled each piston and checked to make sure the rod bolts were installed real tight, then I aligned the oil ring groove at 8 o'clock, the lower compression ring at 4 o'clock, and the upper compression ring at 12 o'clock. I oiled the ring compressor and tightened it down.
I then tapped the piston in the cylinder with the wooden handle of a hammer....tap tap tap. Seems pretty tight. Tap tap tap. Not really moving much more. TAP TAP TAP... 
HEY WHAT THE HECK IS THAT OIL RING SPRING DOING STICKING OUT OF THE BOTTOM OF THE RING COMPRESSOR. HOW THE HECK DID IT GET OUT THERE. ARGHH. *ARGGGGHHHH!* 
****!!!!
Here is the damage:
Picture 48








That ring, by the way for all you cheapskates, can NOT be straightened out and used. Rings have to slide smoothly in the grooves. This ring will never work again. I have to order a new one, which means a whole new set for one piston. Glad I don't have to buy a whole new set for the engine......
I managed to get the other three in without incident. Oil the ring compressor. Check the rod bolts to make sure they are snug. Get the rings aligned at the right position 120 degrees apart. Put the ring compressor on so it covers half the piston. Get it pretty tight but not fully tight. Insert the piston into the cylinder with the valve divots towards the dipstick side of the engine. Tighten the ring compressor quite tight. Tap the piston with a wooden handle down into the cylinder. Hope you don't screw up. Keep the ring compressor tight against the block.
Picture 49








With all the pistons I could install in, I unwrapped the crank. I had the crank journals polished. Here is what it looked like when I opened it.
Picture 50








I bought high quality main bearings...the ones with the six oil grooves and the four flat bearings....just like OEM.
Picture 51








I flipped the engine over and realized at that point that I had not yet ordered the right thrust bearings, so there was no way I could install the crank.





































Picture 52









I put in the main bearings on the block side, being very careful to not touch them with my fingers. I wore gloves. Then I put the whole thing aside and went to order the parts I needed....new rings and thrust bearings......
I also realized that I did not take a good picture of the direction of the rod bearing caps.  I can't figure out if the tabs for the bearings should be on the same side of the bearing cap or opposite sides. On three it appears, from the marks, that they are on the same side so that they end up about 3mm apart. One one, it looks like they are opposite so the tabs will be on the other side of the rod about 30mm apart. I will post another thread on this, but does anyone know for sure?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_All I can say is - you scare me!!!

Need I say it again? Oops, I just did......
If I had had a 1-900 AIM addy I would have made tons of $$$ over the years, now I just dont get on anymore....
The key in installing with the screw band clamp type ring compressor is to tighten it all up and have the compressor below the rings far enough to allow the skirt of the piston to square up in the bore FIRST. Then using a rubber/neoprene mallet you tap the ring compressor so it sits perfectly square and flush on the block, then while pushing down on the ring compressor, use the hammer handle to gently tap on the top of the piston. You will hear each ring click into the bore....when the sound of the tap on the piston changes to something resembling solid contact - STOP!! Most of the time a gentle tap on top of the ring compressor will square things back up and allow the ring to go in.
Now the other way is to purchase a set of the tapered piston installer tools that pretty much prevent all this hassle and crap....








or the fixed variety








Only $25-$30 or so each - http://www.tavia.com/cat17.html
Now, any damage to the bore??
I still think that with .002-.003 bore over stock plus the undersize of the used pistons you will be building something that wont last long, and as somebody else said can possibly be a smoker...
You have some of the pistons in - what is the piston to wall clearance when you push it all the way to one side?


_Modified by OhioBenz at 10:09 PM 11-12-2007_


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: It's started (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_ Putting the pistons into place. I carefully aligned the grooves so that they were all opposite each other 

As mentioned by somebody else, and probably listed in the ring instructions and the Bentley... Ring gaps are to be 120* apart
For 3pc oil rings each of the outer ones is to be 60* from the center ring gap - in opposite directions.
PS - dont forget the oil squirters before you drop the crank in.....


_Modified by OhioBenz at 10:10 PM 11-12-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Boo for broken ****..... (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
Need I say it again? Oops, I just did......
If I had had a 1-900 AIM addy I would have made tons of $$$ over the years, now I just dont get on anymore....

Now the other way is to purchase a set of the tapered piston installer tools that pretty much prevent all this hassle and crap....








or the fixed variety










Geez. I really like those. For everyone following this thread, pay heed to ohiobenz's advice on how to install the rings, and get a set of those. Damaging that lower oil ring is o so easy.

_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
Now, any damage to the bore??


No....None. I checked it carefully. I really was only tapping on it with a wooden mallet.

_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
You have some of the pistons in - what is the piston to wall clearance when you push it all the way to one side?


They are really tight. With the break in fluid on there is quite a bit of suction. I can't really see of feel any discernable movement. The cylinder wear was only .002 at the top, which is well within spec. That is only .001 on each side. The tops of the pistons have no wear at all. Only the outer edges of the skirts had a small amount of wear at the bottom.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: It's started (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
As mentioned by somebody else, and probably listed in the ring instructions and the Bentley... Ring gaps are to be 120* apart


This I was careful to do. Tops are at 12 o clock, lower compression at 4 o'clock and the oil at 8 o'clock....my two piece oils are 180 apart.

_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
PS - dont forget the oil squirters before you drop the crank in.....



Good save. I would have installed the crank first. Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

oh, crap it makes me want an 8 valver again. 
but after the rebuild is done it will be so much fun! or also possible something will breake.
so just in case a have another 9a. lol. GL!


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

so any updates?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

probly not - he's gotta order another set of rings ....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_probly not - he's gotta order another set of rings ....

Yup....Got a ring set ordered and might be here by the end of the week. Got my thrust bearings but have had no time to put them in. I will install the oil squirters and the crank, then do the rods that I can.
It is getting cold here, though is warmer than normal. -7C outside and my shop is not heated. Soon I will run out summer.....


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

PASHAT this is great! I really want to thank you for this thread. It will most likely save me months and hundreds. Please post more pictures of your work. I will be doing my first rebuild soon! I can't get enough of this thread.


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 7:38 AM 11-15-2007_


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
It is getting cold here, though is warmer than normal. -7C outside and my shop is not heated. Soon I will run out summer.....

Thats why they make portable heaters and heat lamps.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (rivethead)*

You have ELECTRICITY????!!!


----------



## eurojolf (Feb 18, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

yeah proper tools only make sense


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## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Good job, any updates? keep the pics coming


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (The_GTi_Art)*

Hopefullly I'll get the crank in tomorrow...A little tight for time. I was playing with the oil squirters today. They are more complex than I thought...have valves in the bolts....
New ring will be here Monday.
I played with my head today, and started a thread on it.
Also bought a 1987 Golf today, for my kids to learn to drive with....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I got the piston ring tonight....pistons are all in. Crank is in loose but all is in. Oil squirters too. I will post pictures, but not until likely Wednesday, as I am off to buy a 1987 Golf.....My first CIS-KE Jetronic!


----------



## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Woohoo! Go mechanical injection with electrical sensors...the biggest confusion VW ever thought up! j/k You'll get to like them. Confusing, but cheap to fix. These Digi, Motronic and the like...simple but I just don't get them...yet!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: The continuing saga....bottom end rebuild*

I got my new rings and thrust bearings….had to buy rings for a whole piston although I only needed one oil ring….better then having to buy a WHOLE new set….
Picture 52b








Once again…double checked the rod bolts to make sure that they were fully seated, then aligned the top compression ring at 12:00, the lower compression ring at 4:00 and the oil ring gap at 8:00. The oil ring spring opening was at 2:00….180 degrees from the oil ring gap. Then I tightened the spring compressor really tight, but not quite fully. Spring compressor is really well oiled on the inside so the piston can slide.
Picture 53








Piston is inserted in cylinder and compressor is squared to block, then compressor is fully tightened down
Picture 54








Success!
Picture 55








Be SURE the pistons are installed the correct way. The valve divots need to be on the INTAKE side of the engine. You can also check from the bottom. The rods have a little nib on them. Those nibs need to be on the timing belt side of the engine. 
Picture 56








Next, I installed the oil squirters. After doing some research, I decided to threadlock these with blue threadlock. VW indicates that you are supposed to put some special sealant on these prior to inserting them….I suspect that is like threadlock. You only torque these to 10nm, so that’s not much. Would HATE to have one fall out. EEK!
Be careful not to get threadlock near the tip….these have to open under oil pressure to work. I carefully put the threadlock around the threads after taking this picture…
Picture 57








Note that the oil squirters fit in a recess and are square to the block. 
Picture 58








Next, the rod bearings are put into place on the connecting rod side.
Picture 59








The thrust bearings need to stay in place when you put the crank in. Put a little grease on the OUTSIDE (Block side….that’s the FLAT side not the side with the oil grooves in it) so it will stay in place. The ones without the tabs go on the block side.
Picture 60








All the bearings get a coating of break in oil. Don’t forget the thrust bearings.
Picture 61









Crank gets dropped into place being VERY VERY CAREFUL not to bang the bearing surfaces on the rod bolts that are sticking up.
Picture 62








Once I had the crank in place, I put the middle main bearing cap in place, with the thrust washers. The bearings need to have break in oil applied prior to putting them in place.
Picture 63








This is when I ran into a problem. I could not recall which direction that bearing caps went. Did the numbers go on the intake side or the exhaust side? On the bearing rods, the tabs are supposed to be next to one another so I presumed that this was true of the mains as well. I put them in place with the numbers on the exhaust side as that would place the tabs next to each other, but because I wasn’t completely sure, I did not tighten them up. I knew I had a picture and when I checked it I found that the numbers WERE on the exhaust side of the engine. What you see in the picture below is correct. I put the rod bearings in place…tabs next to one another and the nib on the rod bearing cap aligned with the nib on the rod…nibs towards timing belt. I put new nuts on, and tightened these barely snug, but not to torque yet.
So I ended with the crank in place, main bearing caps in place but not bolted down. Rod bearing caps in place and bolted in place, but not torqued.
Picture 64












_Modified by PASHAT at 8:30 PM 11-21-2007_


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

intersting, very interesting.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

its usually advised to put a piece of hose over the ends of the rod studs so that they can't nick the crank journals when you put them together.
I have the habit of putting the crank in first before doing the pistons.
Curiosity question - facing the front of engine which side did you place the top ring gap on?
there just seems to be more "dirt" than i like....
this is a used parts rebuild:








same block after a .040" overbore & Wiseco 11:1 forged pistons:


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
Curiosity question - facing the front of engine which side did you place the top ring gap on?

I believe I put the top ring gap on the exhaust side in about the 12:00 position...
The inside of the engine is really clean. We washed and washed the bores with solvent and then took a kleenex and scraped the sides. If there was ANY colour on the kleened, we washed it again until the scrape test came back absolutely clean.
The deck and tops of the pistons are not so clean. I wondered if I should have cleaned the tops of the pistons or not. I can still do that.


----------



## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

PASHAT you are doing a great service to every one here. Like the guy above, i went with weisco pistons. I went .020 over with 11:1 compression. I found some through a aftermarket site totaling $450. 
Have you decided on cams yet? I have yet to decide my self. As I'm doing the same project.
Phill


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Millennium Falcon)*

Thanks. I hope that some are finding this helpful....it is a lot of time to resize picts and post them.....but on the other hand the thread would be more valuable if anyone with concerns or additional info pipes up. Would hate to only be telling people "how to do it...wrong!"
Overbore pistons is a great idea. My decision to not go that route was entirely financial and due to the very limited wear on this block. It was only .5 thou out of OEM when I measured it. After honing, it is up to 2 thou. Had there been any more wear on the block, I would have rebored and got the pistons. Knowing what I know now, I definitely would have bought a kit with new pistons in it, like was originally recommended.
If I was to go that route with overbores, I would likely buy another block, bore it all, put the new pistons and bearings in, and do a swap in the near future. The swap, if needed in the future for any reason, would only take me a couple of hours so it is worth it to go this route for now. Since I am doing the work myself, this route is cost effective. Gives me a future project to consider!
Cams. No decision. I took some of OhioBenz advice and contacted Delta Cams about the cost of 268 Shrick Regrinds. It would cost me about $325.00 shipped, plus the cost of shipping my cams down there. I can buy Cat Cams for about the same amount, and keep my old cams. I am weighing that.
After doing all the research I did, and following all the advice on the Cam thread, I have come to the conclusion that decisions on cams is directly related to decisions on head porting and polishing. More agressive P&P should go with more aggressive Cams. For a number of reasons, I am likely only going to go mild P&P...just enough to support some good streetable cams and not require high RPMs and also keep the torque up. I am pretty sure that I will go with 268ish, but am still undecided if I should get a lower duration for the intake, or go higher on the exhaust. I would likely aim for even lower duration than that, were it not for the ITBs that I plan to install.
It is hitting -15C here...(that is getting close to 0F for my friends down south). My shop is open and unheated. Not sure how much more I will get done unless I move my head to the basement and work on it there. I want to get the pan on and get oil in this weekend. I have to look at the oil pump and make a decision about replacing it. But my work on the block is definitely almost done for the year...due to the weather.


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
It is hitting -15C here...(that is getting close to 0F for my friends down south). My shop is open and unheated. Not sure how much more I will get done unless I move my head to the basement and work on it there. I want to get the pan on and get oil in this weekend. I have to look at the oil pump and make a decision about replacing it. But my work on the block is definitely almost done for the year...due to the weather.

Do what we did in Idaho as a kid. 1x2 frame with plastic tarps. A few heat lamps and a portable heater. Good to go.


----------



## TheWinterBeater (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (rivethead)*

The AB/MB/SK weather is so much a dry cold...I barely went outside when I was at my sis' near Moosejaw around New Years a while back. We have a wet cold in North Bay (we live in between two lakes) so the lake effect keeps our fall a little longer than yours. I'm trying to pull my 1.8 8 valve from my 86 Rocco at -5 C with a sprinkling of snow and a pile of cold rain with a tarp and 2x4 frame. Axles and header left, then it's out.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (rivethead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rivethead* »_
Do what we did in Idaho as a kid. 1x2 frame with plastic tarps. A few heat lamps and a portable heater. Good to go.









Slavedrivers! I want my HOLIDAY!!!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: The continuing saga....bottom end rebuild (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_ You only torque these to 10nm, so that’s not much.

10Nm =~ 8ft/lbs.Some people usually go all the way to 12ft/lbs.
Just so that people reading this thread do not get confused.It takes ALOT more torque to remove these than to install them because of the thread lock.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: The continuing saga....bottom end rebuild (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Just so that people reading this thread do not get confused.It takes ALOT more torque to remove these than to install them because of the thread lock.










Thanks for the additional information. I could still take them out and redo them to 12, but with the thread lock, I should be all right, I hope?
I find it interesting that when I searched this, some people seemed ambivalent about the need for threadlock on those squirters....


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## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

Question: The bearing contact surface on the crank going in looked a little scuffed. Is it not wise to have the crank polished?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_Question: The bearing contact surface on the crank going in looked a little scuffed. Is it not wise to have the crank polished?

Absolutlye. What you are seeing is due to the flash. The crank was, in fact, polished at the same time that the machinest crosshatched the block, but good to point this out. Thanks.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I torqued the main caps to 65NM, and the rod caps to 30NM plus 1/4 turn. (I hate stretch bolts..they always scare me). In any event, nothing broke. I then checked the oil pump and found that it was well within specs. I checked the pickup screen and it was clean. So I reinstalled it.
Then I changed the rear oil seal, and replaced the rear oil seal carrier. Then I realized I had forgotten the paper gasket and removed the rear oil seal carrier. Then I replaced it again, tightening the bolts to 10NM. 
I then cleaned the front oil seal carrier, and replaced the seal. I put the paper gasket on, and found I could NOT find the five bolts for the front oil seal carrier.....going to have to look for them!
I then cleaned the oil pan gasket and the oil pan, put a little oil in and put the oil pan on. The oil pan bolts were also 10NM.
Basically, except for the new gaskets, the bottom end is done. Pictures to follow.....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Here are the picts of the beginning of the end of the bottom end rebuild.
I torqued the main cap bolts to 65NM, getting them snug on both bolts, and then finally tightening them to torque:
Picture 66:








Then I did the cap bolts to 30NM. Once I had the nuts torqued to that setting, I put the ratchet to the 3:00 position, 
Picture 67:








and then moved it slowly and steadily to the 6:00 position. It got pretty hard to turn when it got close to 6:00. Oh...and for you folks way down south who have never seen it....that is SNOW you see outside the door at the top of the pict.
Picture 68:








Here is what everything looked like when I was done:
Picture 69:








Then I took apart the oil pump and checked it for wear. That is a .008 feeler gauge....it should not fit in. It doesn't.
Picture 70:








I also checked the clearance at the top of the gears, and it was also well within spec.
Then, it was time to put a few gaskets in
Picture 71:








Don't forget to put the darn paper gasket behind the rear oil seal carrier. I forgot this seal, and had to take the seal carrier off, put the gasket in, and put it back.
Picture 72:








I put moly grease on the lip of the seal, and put it in place...WITH the gasket behind it.
Picture 73:








For the front engine seal, I used a large socket to put it into place, then tapped it with a hammer until it was equally flush all the way around the carrier. One thing was weird about this seal. There were two seals in the gasket set. They were both marked as the same size. However one had a number 47/xxxx and the other had a 43/xxxx. The size marked on them was exactly the same size. I presume that they are the same seal, but couldn't figure out why they had different numbers???:
Picture 74:








Again, I greased the seal with moly grease.
Picture 75:









I cleaned off the oil pan gasket and put it into place. Not the missing bolts on the front oil seal carrier
Picture 76:








Next I put the oil pan in place and torqued the bolts to 10NM all the way around.


----------



## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Coming along nice, good job, and about the snow yea, it's like 75deg outside here, i think i'd die if i was there, not used to the cold


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (The_GTi_Art)*

Pashat - not too far to make this adjustment:








windage tray/gasket from 93-98 4cyl. Cost about $30 or so. Advantages: rubber oil pan gasket, less oil friction from crank, less foaming of oil, better oil pick-up.


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_Advantages: rubber oil pan gasket, less oil friction from crank, less foaming of oil, better oil pick-up.

Add to that: Less change of it becoming brittle and breaking apart and clogging your oil pickup and killing your motor. BTDT.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_Pashat - not too far to make this adjustment:
windage tray/gasket from 93-98 4cyl. Cost about $30 or so. Advantages: rubber oil pan gasket, less oil friction from crank, less foaming of oil, better oil pick-up.

Gee. I like that. I don't like using old gaskets, (like I did for the oil pan gasket in the rebuild so far...that was the ONLY gasket that I didn't buy new) but the quote for a replacement was $60.00 and they are hard as rock.
Give me some more details. What model do I look up to find that and where can I order one from? 
One of the advantages of having time (read: "having SNOW"







) is that I can take my time and have time to be informed by others who know far more than me. 
You are absolutely right. I can easily swap in that gasket. I am likely going to put a head on the block with an old gasket and old head bolts FOR STORAGE ONLY. I want to get some oil in so that it is well lubricated while it sits and freezes for a couple of months. During that time, I will work on the second head that I have. 
In spring, I will drain the storage oil, remove the head, put the new head on and finish the install.
(Note to self: In spring, I will drain the oil, remove the head, put the new head on and finish the install.)
Hey Look! Santa Smileys!


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_windage tray/gasket from 93-98 4cyl.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

ANY 93-98 4cyl will fit?

Edit: Okay....I found it. I can get it from my local supplier for $60.00 by searching the Golf ABA engine code for that year. The Canadian VW aftermarket suppliers (who ALL seem to be supplied by one wholesaler) are out of stock.
I will try some of the US ones that ship to Canada and maybe wait until I have a larger order or the Canadian Ones get it back in stock....



_Modified by PASHAT at 11:12 AM 11-25-2007_


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

yeah - $60 is pretty high.....


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_ I want to get some oil in so that it is well lubricated while it sits and freezes for a couple of months. 
In spring, I will drain the storage oil, ..... 

no sense in doing that IMO. Just get a can of silicon spray or WD-40 and get everything thats internal and exposed. You've used assy lube on all the other stuff.........
once the head is done make sure you spray some down into the intake & exhaust ports to coat the valves. I would leave the cams out till you're ready - that way things stay sealed up! As soon as you drop in a cam - 2 cylinders are open to the air (valves are open)


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_yeah - $60 is pretty high.....

Yeah...and that's $60.00 CANADIAN.....


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
Yeah...and that's $60.00 CANADIAN.....









Yeah well, nowadays that means its $65 USD








i'm pretty sure i can get one for like $38 + tax
BTW it was 19F this morrning here in happy OH....
I have a couble barrel woodburner i my garage - but its such a mess i cant even pull a car in LOL. VW parts everywhere










_Modified by OhioBenz at 6:02 PM 11-25-2007_


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

while you guyz are at the oil pan, now, will it be cheaper to replace the old 9a oil pump with aba and swapping the shaft? i mean you will get abrand new pump for like 65$.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

i guess that depends on how he is going to trigger his ignition. Dunno how committed he is to MSNS-e???
I would leave the original 9A setup in and go for the euro rear crank trigger set up Nigel had posted - thats the cats meow as far as I'm concerned!!!

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

how does it go? i am stuck at the topic of ignition in my online school. can you explain how this thing works?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_ i am stuck at the topic of ignition in my online school. can you explain how this thing works?

No cheating on your tests!








I am pretty commited to MSns. My son who is working on me is right into this project and computers.....it is a good fit for us.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

i never cheat, i do it all online anyway. i just reffer to a book while i take tests and can't figure the right answer. 

honestly i don't. but how will tha MSNS thing work and how does that CP sencor works with all of the rest of ignition system. thank you.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

if you look close you can see that the inner ring has "teeth" 
its a 60-2 setup with a hall type magnetic sensor.
It should be set so that the -2 is at TDC i believe and the sensor "skips" a signal. The ECU knows thats TDC.
Factory ABA (93+) 4 cyl has the ring mounted to the crank internally and the hall sensor is in the block just below the distributor at the end of the block behind #4 cylinder.
For those who arent building an ABA-16v this is a nice clean OEM setup thats hidden inside the bell housing unlike all the aftermarket front mount pick-up devices that can get whacked by something you encounter on or off road








I'm def looking at ordering one for my 9A project!
MSnS-e is just an aftermarket programmable ECU you build yourself...


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_ but how will tha MSNS thing work

We'll get to that....That is chapter 11...we are only on chapter 2.
Between now and then we have to finish the bottom end and put it back together (I have a few leftover pieces that I am not sure about!), deal with the head, create ITBs, deal with exhaust, pick cams, get injectors and a fuel rail, decide about timing cam gear and internal cam gears.....THEN we'll move on to MSquirting this thiing!
(And NO cheating by reading ahead!







)


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_ get injectors and a fuel rail, 

the 1.8t fuel rail will work with ITB's and shorty/custom intakes - a lot cheaper than BBM, Ross or even e-Bay ones...








and it looks stock LOL!!
BTW there are full MSnS-e maps out there already for the 16v ITB setups so that should save you quite a bit of time on page 11


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i am abit suspitious , if you have the co sensor in the bellhousing, do you have to remove the tranny everytime changing the sensor? or is ther a better way to acces the sensor?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_i am abit suspitious , if you have the co sensor in the bellhousing, do you have to remove the tranny everytime changing the sensor? or is ther a better way to acces the sensor?

its not a CO sensor - its the crank position sensor. Something that really doesnt get changed too often at all.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

my bad the cp sensor, of course, not the co2 sensor, i meant the cp sensor. misstyping.

i know something about cars.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

ttt


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

This is off topic but I just want to thank PASHAT.
Thanks for all the pictures PASHAT. You have really helped out a lot of newbies like myself.
If anyone needs any questions or wants to participate in this thread, I encourage you to! PASHAT is really doing a service for a lot of us here! As well as a lot of others! 
Thanks PASHAT.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*

Thanks. I have a few more...not many...picts to post but have been crazy busy. I'll try to get them up over the weekend.
It is wild here for temp. The temp has been 25 below C which is less than 0F? (I can't speak in farenheit any more.) and there is a foot of snow on the ground.
Not the temps for grabbing tools with your bare hands....


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

those guys to the south have it much easier.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
pick cams, get injectors and a fuel rail, decide about timing cam gear and internal cam gears.....THEN we'll move on to MSquirting this thiing!
(And NO cheating by reading ahead!







)

remeber, a cam *set* should not need adjustable cam gears. a good company will have pretty well optimized the cam lobe profile and cut the gear keywas there. anything you squeeze out with adjustable cam gears is gunna take lots of dyno time to find, and since your not worried about shaving 1/10 seconds off your lap times, spend your money elswhere.
and don't go and think you can pick different intake/exhaust cams and they will be a good match. trust the professionals


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_
a good company will have pretty well optimized the cam lobe profile and cut the gear keywas there. trust the professionals

Kind of strange how I've heard that cams from a little company called Schrick are often out of time and need the internal sprockets to be timed correctly. But since degreeing a camshaft is beyond 90% of people's abilities most never know. I for one usually double check stuff before I use it, whether its valve clearances, head flatness, etc, even if a "professional" says its good. People make mistakes is all.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Jetta2dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jetta2dr* »_
Kind of strange how I've heard that cams from a little company called Schrick are often out of time and need the internal sprockets to be timed correctly. 


Is that due to quality control of the cams themselves, or differences particular to specific applications (headwork etc?)?


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

I dont know, but one thing to keep in mind is that if your head is decked it will alter the cam timing because the cam gear will be closer to the crank sprocket so it will have to turn a little to line up with the cogs on the belt. Though it probably isnt much of a change, I've never gone through the math to figure out how much of a shave is equal to whatever value of timing change.
But while that type of situation effects the cam to crank timing, I seem to remember the problem with some schricks being the intercam timing, which would make one think it is a quality control or manufacturing problem. But never having had the $$$$ (4 $, they're spensive!) for schricks I have no personal experience with them, its all just hearsay. But its the internet, its gotta be true!


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_
remeber, a cam *set* should not need adjustable cam gears. a good company will have pretty well optimized the cam lobe profile and cut the gear keywas there. anything you squeeze out with adjustable cam gears is gunna take lots of dyno time to find, and since your not worried about shaving 1/10 seconds off your lap times, spend your money elswhere.
and don't go and think you can pick different intake/exhaust cams and they will be a good match. trust the professionals

If that is your opinion i will suggest that you measure a cam set after you have installed it from ANY brand compared to the cam spec sheet that SHOULD come together with the cam set.
I think you will be very surprised if not dissapointed.


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (NORSK)*

3 different manufactorers cams over the past 2 years. 4 different heads. All were off. 1/2 degree to 2 full degress.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

so what is the frigging bottom line if i shave head( deck it) or if performance cams are installed i will need the adjustable cam gear?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

Bottom line...there is some indication that at least some Cams are not manufactured to high tolerances, which seems quite strange. 
Is any of this true of Cat Cams? 
How do re-grinds fare in comparison?


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_so what is the frigging bottom line if i shave head( deck it) or if performance cams are installed i will need the adjustable cam gear?

Short answer YES,you most probably need internal adjustable gears too.


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_Bottom line...there is some indication that at least some Cams are not manufactured to high tolerances, which seems quite strange. 
Is any of this true of Cat Cams? 
How do re-grinds fare in comparison?

Like i said earlier,only way to find out is to measure the cams.
It is not very complicated,
It may take some time,but the reason why people install a cam set is to get more power right?,so i really can't understand why they don't bother checking it.
I mean,all other parts that are going into the motor during for example a rebuild is measured up,down and sideways,why not measure the most important part of all








This is not really a question about which brand of cams that are better than the other,i always measure cams regardless of brand or if they are regrinded.
I have even seen camsets where the cam nocks from 2 cylinders were not 90 deg opposite of each other.
And as far as i can remember,none of the sets i have measured has been 100% regarding internal timing.
And for the adjustable cam gear for the timing belt
All blocks has different height due to tolerances
Some heads/blocks are shaved and some use thinner headgaskets or thick spacer for that matter,
and some camsets even has the keyway out of spec on this place.


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (NORSK)*

Another thing,cam spec sheets which always should follow a cam set when you buy it.
These specs are nothing but a baseline (usually a very good one) and the rest depend on what is done to your engine.
So,even if you install cams,set them at baseline it is not 100% sure that this baseline is optimal.
So i wonder what people do,when they dyno a car without adjustable gears,do they only tweek fuel and spark,or boost pressure for those running forced induction..........
Sounds like a waste of time and money spent on the dyno,but that is just my opinion


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (NORSK)*

I would definitely get at the least then external adjustable cam pulley.
Secondly get or borrow a degree wheel and a 1" travel indicator and set you cam according to the spec sheet. This is when you will find out if the cam is timed correctly. 
An external pulley will allow you to adjust the exhaust cam timing with respect to the crank timing.
Once you have the exhaust cam timed - check and see where the intake cam is with respect to crank timing. if it is off - you need to get an internal cam sprocket for on one of the cams. All that is needed is ONE cam gear so split a set with somebody!!!
If cam lift is way off compared to what the manufacturer spec sheet, or if one lobe set is off to another lobe set - all you can do is return the cam and either hope the replacement is right or get your $$ back and hope the next manufacturer has better quality control....
Unless you have a testing stand that lets you check the lobe to lobe timing - you wont find out till its in the head!! Hence again the need for the degree wheel and indicator.
BTW a 2* error in a cam can make a big performance difference. After all the topic is to build a GREAT 16v







and in several cases - doing less than has been suggested is going to result in an average or mediocre 16v..... But then most people dont want to spend either the $$$$$ or the time to do that. My oldest son & I have $10k invested in his ABA-16vT and an easy $3K in my middle son's "basic" build...








you get what you pay for still applies - in all cases the TIME you put into a build - to do it right - will pay back in the TIME you get to enjoy it afterwards. so take the time to set and check your cams...


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

Oh, if only I could get my 15 year old interested in the mechanical side of cars, He doesn't want anything more than to push peddles and turn the steering wheel of a car. Heck, My 7 year old girl is more interested in what I'm doing with my car








I guess I'm gunna have a gymnest motorhead, Geez I'm gunna have to beat the boys off with a breaker bar








What the hell kind of QC do these cam companies have?????
All of you are scaring me on aftermarket parts http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
maybe starting with origenal equipment cams IS a good idea








but yah, if you have the head decked, you need an adjustable timing gear http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_Oh, if only I could get my 15 year old interested in the mechanical side of cars, He doesn't want anything more than to push peddles and turn the steering wheel of a car. 

AutoX/RallyX driver???????


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

My 15 year old is getting his hands greasy. I told him if he wants to drive it...he has to help. He was right there beside me when, in trying to put the engine into the engine stand, it slipped and went careening towards the concrete floor for a millisecond...before I caught it again. By the time I realized what had almost happened I had already calmed down!
Will try to post a few more pictures tonight. It was only -15C so I got the head on to protect it over the winter.....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Okay, here is what has happened since I last posted picts. I painted up the block....supposed to be a nice blue, but on the coarse surface of the block it ended up being pretty dark:
Picture 77:








I found that the missing bolts were in the timing belt cover....have to bolt THROUGH the timing belt cover to hold the seal carrier on....
Picture 78:








I guess this is why these are interference engines.....
Picture 79:








I wanted to put an old head gasket on for the winter, so I could attach the head. This is what it looks like if you put the head gasket on upside down...note the alignment pin has nothing on it....
Picture 80:








Here it is on correctly:
Picture 81:








I got it on the stand, and put the head on with the middle two bolts only, after having it slip as mentioned above. Note the snow outside my shop.
Picture 82:








I have some leftover bits. I have no clear recollection of where that flat metal piece on the right side goes except that it goes below the timing belt somewhere....also don't know where that bracket is from. Anyone got any information or picts?









I also put the Scirocco away for the winter and pulled the battery:









I pulled the Golf in behind the Scirocco too. No VWs for me until spring.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

gee, it is -15 c outside, i was painting engine's auxiliary thingies this weekend, by the time it got -1c i said screw it and took a ride back home. i really am taking care of every detail. i got it all aluminum painted(high heat ceramic paint). i have 2 sets of stuff for 2 9a's, just in case. i want to do one all stock( maybe except for the adjustable cam gears now and intermediate to) and the second one will be with all DIY mods. i can't wait till i am done with at least 1 of them. and putting of stuff till spring, would kill me. 
mad props to you pashat. so sad we'll have to wait till spring.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

by the way what if i just put a thicker head gasket as a spacer to compensate for the shaved material? so i could probably avoid all those adjustable gears? heh?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_by the way what if i just put a thicker head gasket as a spacer to compensate for the shaved material? so i could probably avoid all those adjustable gears? heh?

Kind of defeats one of the purposes of shaving the head, don't it? Not sure that they come in thicker than stock for the 9a. I know you can get thinner. You could likely double them, but to get it exactly the same as unshaved stock could be tricky. Others will know better.
It is currently -25c out, here....thats about -10F. With the wind, it is closer to -37c....that's about -37F.
I presume you were speaking in celcius when you spoke of -15? Didn't think you folks down south could do that though!


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

ya know, now is the time to do the megasquirt build and start learning your wiring diagram connections








nothing like comfy inside work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_ya know, now is the time to do the megasquirt build and start learning your wiring diagram connections








nothing like comfy inside work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Great idea....nothing like a comfy fire and curling up with the Megamanual!
I am also going to be doing some headwork on my spare head, and will post about that. Also inside work!
Thanks.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

don't get me wrong, but this whole fahrenheit thing is really dumb, it is so much more convenient to do things in celcius. it is just better. you got the plus and the minus, above is warm, below is cold 0 celcius is when the water freezes, +100c is when it boils. 
it doesn't feel the same way about kilometers though... 
maybe i am just already used to miles.

and about the head gasket, it is about like 1 mm or less, so the aba head gasket is made of layers of metal, what if i use 1 layer to compensate for the shaved of stuff?

and i honestly would not shave head for performance. not my thing. 
i think 9a stock was good already, and combined with a lightweight car is a very good combination. i had a 9a in a b3 before and it really impressed me even with an auto tranny. now the same 134 hp and with a short ratio tranny in a golf should give me anough zip. and reliability, so i could drive to cali and back next summer.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

it is not everyone that can be a mechaniker anyways, some people can become salespeople...and make hellavalot more money.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (NORSK)*

oh that sucks do you mean the ones that run the timing chain between the cams?

never hoid of it.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

timing between stock cams will not be changed.
they will both retard the same amount from head shaving.
I run an adjustable timing gear. my head has been shaved to a clean surface http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_it is not everyone that can be a mechaniker anyways, some people can become salespeople...and make hellavalot more money.









Did someone say salesperson







So does that mean if my lips are moving I am lying.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: MY NEW IM shaft is here*

Hey! I got my parcel today. And opened it to find this:








This came from Retro_Mike, a guy here in Canada who sells a fair number of parts up here, and I have to take a moment to thank him. Here's why:
1. I really needed this part, (obviously).
2. He had one.
3. He charged next to nothing for it...was exceptionally reasonable
4. He packaged it up well
5. He sent it out quickly
6. He sent the RIGHT part!
I cannot express too stongly how happy I am to get this. I would HIGHLY recommend this guy for anyone needing something whether you be north or south of the border.
That being said, when I drove to work today, the temp was -26 and the sign had -11F. That is without the wind. We had a massive storm here two nights ago, and the snow outside my shop that you can see in the picture up above is now well past my knees.
Anyway....don't forget I need help with these leftover bits, if anyone knows where they go!:


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

That tin shield goes under the timing belt on that side of the block somewhere.
The cast iron bracket goes with the big beefy alternator/ac compressor bracket somehow.
Lower timing belt cover is pretty obvious.
Dont know about those misc bolts and stuff though.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Jetta2dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jetta2dr* »_ That tin shield goes under the timing belt on that side of the block somewhere.
The cast iron bracket goes with the big beefy alternator/ac compressor bracket somehow.
Lower timing belt cover is pretty obvious.
Dont know about those misc bolts and stuff though.

Thanks....I think I can figure out the bolts. Seems that the two threaded one holds one of the timing belt covers on.


----------



## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

You know what i did with those PITA timing belt covers?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: MY NEW IM shaft is here (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_Hey! I got my parcel today. And opened it to find this:








This came from Retro_Mike, 


What would he want for some 2.0-16v ones?????


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: MY NEW IM shaft is here (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
What would he want for some 2.0-16v ones?????

Best to ask him. He posts in the Canadian Classified forum all the time. Not sure if this was the only one he had or if he has better or worse ones.


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

I was reading a post about the IM shaft being unbalanced. They turned it down and reduced the weight significantly + balanced it. Would this be something to really look into?


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kungfoojesus* »_I was reading a post about the IM shaft being unbalanced. They turned it down and reduced the weight significantly + balanced it. Would this be something to really look into?

IM shafts are known for tearing up thier bearings due that most are way out of balance, lightening helps relieve some load on the engine and improves it's performance. Send it to X K R O M X - he'll fix it for you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PintSized)*

I do them...


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

Nice work Ohio!
I have always heard it was a good idea to lighten the IM shaft, but there are contrary opinions on this. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3562347
I have access to a complete machine shop for doing SMALL stuff like this (no head work







). 
Have it done or leave it stock?? Opinions? (I *KNOW* there are a few opinions out there!







)


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I only took mine to clean-up to remove the "cam" and made sure there was a nice big radius at each end...
Yeah it only turns at 1/2 engine rpm - and I'm building an 8000rpm motor... 4000rpm is faster than most electric motors spin and some of them can vibrate like crazy! I just dont want any vibrations!!!


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

ANY vibrations? Wow that is quite a goal! I don't have these kinds of expectations, as I'm on a budget similar to PASHAT's. As well as building a street machine not an 8000rpm monster.
I'm torn after reading that thread pashat posted. To lighten or not to lighten, that is certainly a good question. 


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 11:40 AM 12-6-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_I only took mine to clean-up to remove the "cam" and made sure there was a nice big radius at each end...


This sounds like a prudent compromise.
Even if you are only taking your vehicle to 6000, 3000 is STILL 50 revs per second.....things can wobble! And actually, I have found from lathe work that it is the low speeds that sometimes can wobble the most!


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

nice engine color, why didn't i think of it. maybe i'll steel the color for the second 9a.
and i wont balance the im shaft


----------



## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

Whatcha been doing? i want more pics, i know it's cold outside but still









j/k i love this thread man


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (The_GTi_Art)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The_GTi_Art* »_Whatcha been doing? i want more pics, i know it's cold outside but still










Out of the mouths of babes.....
Art...It ain't the snow....It's the fact that it is -15F out there right now.








I bet you've never had your southern Cal ass out in temps that cold! If you ever drove that car up here, you would open up the door, step outside and instantly die. (I'd be standing in my shirt sleeves watchin all this cause we're a little







up here....but TOUGH.







) And just before you closed your eyes and froze your last breath in your lungs you'd say:
How da hell did I make it to the moon in my VW?
I gotta take some picture of my yard. Getting to my shop requires me to walk through snow up past my knees. 
Spend an hour touching metal that is at that temp and you'll understand. Sometimes we HAVE to, like when a fuel pump goes at Christmas time, but not even WE choose to for fun. 
Ever held onto tools that have spent the night out at -10F? 
When we were kids, in the winter at school we used to go the the metal fence or the goal posts and get some poor kid to lick







it. Their tongue would instantly freeze to the post and they'd be stuck there until some mother from across the road brought some boiling water, or they ripped their tongue off, leaving a layer of it behind.
I have had the same experience with tools, where the snow would melt on my hand, and the wrench would freeze to it. I mean, it's then hard to drop it but.....
I'll move my spare head into a heated building to work on it in a bit. But for now it's going to be a wee bit of a wait.











_Modified by PASHAT at 6:53 PM 12-6-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
and get some poor kid to lick







it.


Okay....







it was me.


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

its been getting down to 10F or so at night. I just encountered the joy of cold tools today. Normally bring up my big box but left it out there and gave up after 30 minutes of that ish.
cold tools is worse than cold weather, take your time!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kungfoojesus* »_its been getting down to 10F or so at night

It is MINUS







10F to MINUS







15 Farenheit here....it was 10F when I was doing my rebuild!


----------



## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

lol yeah i know what you mean, well, actually i don't, it's the same here but during the summer, can't touch the tools they're so friggin hot, you can cook an egg on the hood of your car, you can't go outside (well you can but it feels like you're gonna explode) it's like living in a volcano OMG i can't stand the heat!!!! we get 53c (128F) deg here during the summer








Coldest place i've been in is UTAH, (13hr drive from where i live) snow for us is such an adventure, whenever it snows (not here, it barely even rains here) anywhere close to here like up in the mountains we just go and have a good time, i've actually seen snowing 2 times in my life and i was like "Oh look it's snowing!!!!"








You're right, i'd prolly die frozen if i go to your house


----------



## '88Jetta16v (Sep 5, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

I think the coldest I've ever experienced was about -5F. Though it is going to be 18F here tonight and we have about 1" of snow on the ground. Haha... not quite like up north. 
However, what I do like about the winter is that the cars always run so much better. All that cold, dense air makes it so much faster! There is such a big difference between flooring the car on a 95F and 100% humidity day (feels like a dog) and a cold, clear night at 15F(actually feels kinda quick). I wonder what the car would feel like in -10F weather?


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

-10 is cold. Are your water pipes and other cars plugged in.








Swapping a starter in a 1979 chevy van below zero without a shop is worse. Plywood on the snow and a plug in space heater next to you. Only time I was colder was sitting in a foxhole in Germany.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (The_GTi_Art)*

This is a picture of me:








200 Posts!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (rivethead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rivethead* »_-10 is cold. Are your water pipes and other cars plugged in.








Swapping a starter in a 1979 chevy van below zero without a shop is worse. Plywood on the snow and a plug in space heater next to you. Only time I was colder was sitting in a foxhole in Germany. 

I once had to change a starter in one of my vehicles when it was so incredibly cold. I could only stay under it for about 20 minutes...then I had to go inside and wait till the fingers warmed up. The INCREDIBLE pain under the fingernails as they thawed..then back out again. 
I now own newer vehicles and yes...they are plugged in. 
We DO have INDOOR pipes dontcha know! ...
Here is what GTI_ART would look like if HE came up here...







and


----------



## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

The snow man!


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
I once had to change a starter in one of my vehicles when it was so incredibly cold. I could only stay under it for about 20 minutes...then I had to go inside and wait till the fingers warmed up. The INCREDIBLE pain under the fingernails as they thawed..then back out again. 
I now own newer vehicles and yes...they are plugged in. 


I've done that - and then the plow went by and nearly entombed me under my Rabbit. That was fun to dig my way out of with my cheek stuck to the oil pan







MN gets wicked cold. I hate block heaters though - to many leaky ones. Buy a good battery - CCA's matter! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (PintSized)*

Or do it the ghetto way - Infrared heat lamp and extension cord. No fuel leaks or you might have a problem.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (rivethead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rivethead* »_No fuel leaks or you might have a problem.









OR...I might NEVER have a problem again!!


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_I'll move my spare head into a heated building to work on it in a bit. 

take a look at the head stand bracket in my hotdub album...
easy to make (if you have access to a welder) & works great!!
i'll post a pic later
BTW it was 5F yesterday and about 6" of snow & still coming down...


----------



## sprout (Mar 18, 2006)

*Re: (everybody)*

I've been reading this thread for a few days (I get my first 16V in the next week or so hopefully!) and it's been a fantastic and very informative read, thanks PASHAT!
Also, I couldn't help sharing that I know what cold is too... I went to college in da UP (The upper peninsula of Michigan for those of you who are confused) right on Lake Superior. We got some snow and cold up there








Not quite as cold as Canada though.


_Modified by sprout at 10:56 AM 12-7-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (sprout)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sprout* »_
Not quite as cold as Canada though.



MINUS 37 with the windchill here today....(That's about the same in F or Celcius!)


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (sprout)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sprout* »_
Also, I couldn't help sharing that I know what cold is too... I went to college in da UP (The upper peninsula of Michigan for those of you who are confused) right on Lake Superior. We got some snow and cold up there








Not quite as cold as Canada though.

_Modified by sprout at 10:56 AM 12-7-2007_

Marquette or Houghton?


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

hey pashat, dare ya to lick that engine block!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kungfoojesus* »_hey pashat, dare ya to lick that engine block!

It's clean enough!


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: (PintSized)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PintSized* »_
Marquette or Houghton?

Hey youse guyses! Yer talkin bout my neckaduh woods, eh!
Lake superior actually keeps us a touch warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer. Currently its 17F or -8C. But it sure doesnt help with the snowfall, 200-300 of the king's inches a year!


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (Jetta2dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jetta2dr* »_
Hey youse guyses! Yer talkin bout my neckaduh woods, eh!
Lake superior actually keeps us a touch warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer. Currently its 17F or -8C. But it sure doesnt help with the snowfall, 200-300 of the king's inches a year!

I went to school in Marquette and my parents just moved up to the Keweenaw a few years ago. My wife couldn't believe the snow meter showing how much snow you guys get up there. 
Here in central MN we're at +1F (-17C for you PASHAT!) with a wind chill of -12F (-24C). Tonight the standing air temp is supposed to drop to -12F.... wind chill is gonna be the suck.
Enough about the weather - PASHAT, you need this!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PintSized)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PintSized* »_
Enough about the weather - PASHAT, you need this!

















What is that...a crank trigger? What do I need that for? What's it do?


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Yeah - crank trigger for a SEM on a 16v running a serp. belt setup. That's a electromotive 1/2" mag sensor and a 4 tooth trigger wheel. Same setup several race teams use. Don't know if you need it, just whoring it out and trying to be helpful!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PintSized)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PintSized* »_ Don't know if you need it, just whoring it out and trying to be helpful!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Don't misunderstand my tone....!







(Ever) I really DON'T know what it is for and why I would need it....and am interested in hearing why I might!
Don't THINK I will need it for MS, but this is an open thread....how could others use this? Or DO I need it?


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

yeah, more on that and the price to please.


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

You don't *need* it, but rather you *NEED* this.








What this setup will allow you to do is to run distributorless ignition. I had to do a little research to make sure it will work with MS and it will. 

"Install would be wasted spark using VB921 to drive the coil(s) on a V3.0 PCB. In this way it can be used like EDIS but without the need for an EDIS* module, it has the advantage of allowing spark cut rev limiting."
*EDIS is a ford control module for running distributorless.
Distributorless was seen as a advantage to me - less moving parts, no cap to replace, no rotor obviously, no leaking o-ring, accurate electronic management of ignition... I'm still going to be running it still but with a different setup.
How much? This is what I'd like to get, and to be honest is one heck of a deal.








Trigger wheel + 1/2" mag sensor + mounting boss = $165 shipped (sorry PASHAT - I'd have to figure out shipping to Canadia







but if you're interested we can work something out)
For machined Eurosport pulley w/ mounted trigger wheel add $190 











_Modified by PintSized at 10:19 PM 12-7-2007_


----------



## The_GTi_Art (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: (PintSized)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PintSized* »_
I went to school in Marquette and my parents just moved up to the Keweenaw a few years ago. My wife couldn't believe the snow meter showing how much snow you guys get up there. 
Here in central MN we're at +1F (-17C for you PASHAT!) with a wind chill of -12F (-24C). Tonight the standing air temp is supposed to drop to -12F.... wind chill is gonna be the suck.
Enough about the weather - PASHAT, you need this!

















oh yeah whore it out! that is nice


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PintSized)*

I have come to the realization that I am building the FIRST version of this vehicle. A decent little revver, but I am already planning to do another build of a second motor with oversized pistons and some real performance parts.
On this practice engine, I will likely keep the distributor, but thanks for explaining it too me. Often wondered about distributorless ignition and how it worked.


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

No worries http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Mine started out pretty simple too. Actually started due to a bent tie rod, then front sway bar, then ... well she's never gonna be the same







. I fixed the suspension a long time ago - but now it's gone to full p&p head (x k r o m x http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ), 288 VWMS copy cams, bottom end in the spring, race header, efi 1.2, coil on plugs, custom intake, repaint/rewire the engine bay... anyways I got a lot more work to do.
BTW we've got a temp of -27C right now


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

it is like +5 today in nyc, so i was angry i missed a day to paint more parts, let's hope it will be the same over the weekend.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

i built a double barrel stove for my garage cos it has/had no heat.
just toss in some wood scraps, paper and quart of that used engine oil i have stored in jugs....
it makes it nice and tolerable in there. mind you, no other insulation and windows that are single pane etc but those stoves throw a LOT of heat. You can buy the kits for them fairly cheap online and find a couple 55 gal drums!! 
I added a 30 gal with removable lid in the top drum, with a 1500F thermometer in the lid. It works great as an oven to pre-heat parts for TIG welding, or curing hi-temp paint pieces, ceramic coating etc


----------



## sprout (Mar 18, 2006)

*Re: (PintSized)*

Was in Houghton... go Huskies! (sort of... we haven't really had any good sports teams in a long time)
Too bad there wasn't anything to do up there job-wise, I liked the Keweenaw. But if there is nowhere to work, you gotta go elsewhere.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

I have a question, and thought I'd post here first before making a new topic. I've removed the power steering from my 16V, and now I'm not sure what water pump pulley I need. I tried an 8V one but it underdrives the water pump. The only thing I can think of is the Scirocco 16V one, since I assume it did not have power steering. Any help appreciated! I have no ride until I get this thing on the road now.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*

You know, I am likely to have the same problem.
It seems to me that I saw a post in the Canadian Classifieds by Retro_Mike...the same guy I bought the IM shaft from...for some performance parts. He was selling a performance system that I thought was an underdriven pulley system for a 16v. Not sure if it is what you are looking for.
Can't you just use the original pulley and belt? Isn't the water pump separate from the power steering. Or can't you just use a new shorter belt?


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

perhaps the solution isn't the pump itself? just throwing that out there, i still haven't even got my head off let alone started making accessories fit on my frankenstein again.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (nic_s)*

the 16V rocco's DID have powersteering. we'll be putting it on our 80' rocco auto-xer that will have 13X8 and a new set of 13X9's. (along with a 16V and in the future a 16V ABA) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm using OEM head studs on my 16V. Is it important to let it heat and then retorque, or do I do it just once? What's the difference?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*

I don't think there is such a thing as OEM head studs. OEM were stretch bolts. You have to torque them once, properly. You cannot re-torque stretch bolts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

go to Summit Racing and just buy the ARP studs.....
its a one time investment.
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

interesting stuff, so what they have is a set of head bolts and exhaust mani and intake mani studs, so they are reusable? and do they rust?
are ther any stainless steel kits?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_interesting stuff, so what they have is a set of head bolts and exhaust mani and intake mani studs, so they are reusable? and do they rust?
are ther any stainless steel kits?

nothing inside an engine rusts.... These studs are made for strength, not corrosion resistance.
SS is great for external fastners - my son's project motor is all SS sockethead cap screws, nuts, washers.
If anyone is interested - I can put a full kit of SS 16v engine hardware together.... I stock most of the ones used for these motors and it wouldnt take a long time to get what I'm short on.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm using new, stock replacement ones. I'm just wondering if I have to retighten these.


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
If anyone is interested - I can put a full kit of SS 16v engine hardware together.... I stock most of the ones used for these motors and it wouldnt take a long time to get what I'm short on.

Which bolts would the kit replace? I've got an in at Fastenal but a kit would prevent me from going in with a box of bolts and dealing with the stock boy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: NicS - OEM Head STUDS don't exist*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_I don't think there is such a thing as OEM head studs. OEM were stretch bolts. You have to torque them once, properly. You cannot re-torque stretch bolts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_I'm using new, stock replacement ones. I'm just wondering if I have to retighten these.

if you mean re-torque after you have installed and warmed up the engine - no, thats why the OEM are stretch bolts. that last 1/4 turn literally stretches the bolt to a pre-engineered torque value. This is why they cannot be re-used a second time.... But it sounds like you have new ones.... just follow Bentley instructions.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PintSized)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PintSized* »_
Which bolts would the kit replace? I've got an in at Fastenal but a kit would prevent me from going in with a box of bolts and dealing with the stock boy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

pretty much every single bolt and nut that is on the outside of the engine.... oil pan, even the front seal housings.... intake manifold upper & lower, pulleys etc etc... everything that takes a standard bolt or nut.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

that's it, ohio benz! now i have the secret of your side mounting bracket for the engine stand! i have the picture now! mohahamohahamohaha!

nice idea! 
but i have a question so you are using the rear engine mount holes, is it safe enough? 
and i bet it would be difficult to do with an all-alloy block.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

knowing where I bolt it and knowing how i make it so that its capable of holding this








are two different things..... 
Muhahahaha!!!


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

nice picture! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
one day mine will look as new as it was from the factory!


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

one question did you get new bolts for the pulies? they look like ss. are they ss? if yes, where did you get those?
thank you.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_one question did you get new bolts for the pulies? they look like ss. are they ss? if yes, where did you get those?
thank you.


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
......If anyone is interested - I can put a full kit of SS 16v engine hardware together.... I stock most of the ones used for these motors and it wouldnt take a long time to get what I'm short on.


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_ ...pretty much every single bolt and nut that is on the outside of the engine.... oil pan, even the front seal housings.... intake manifold upper & lower, pulleys etc etc... everything that takes a standard bolt or nut.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_knowing where I bolt it and knowing how i make it so that its capable of holding this
are two different things..... 
Muhahahaha!!!

Invisible wires....!


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

Just got my 16V on the road today, after 3.5months of downtime! Man, it needs tuning... plus the driver side crank seal was leaking oil at first, but it seemed to stop after. We'll see how it goes, but if I have to pull the tranny again just to replace an already new seal I'm gonna be pissed!
Oh, and the timing belt rubs against the metal 'guard' that's against the block. It's noisy, but the belt is not visibly wearing from this. The edges of it look and feel untouched. 
The underdriven water pump does not seem to be making any difference in coolant temp. The autotech cams idle almost perfectly. Right now it feels completely gutless, probably because I'm shifting at 3,000 rpm. I'll have to wait until the break in period is over to see how much power I'm making past that.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_/ I'll have to wait until the break in period is over to see how much power I'm making past that.

There was a thread a while back that suggested the best way to break in this engine was to warm it up, then drive it hard.....Real hard. Might want to check it out. It was a link to an article and I think the title was something like "What do you guys think of this"....


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

i give mine 500 mi at 2500-3000rpm take it relatively easy, shift often and keep a close eye on anything that might not have been tightened quite right, any leaks that my be present etc.
At 500 i change oil & filter - then i drive it like i just stole someone's Ferrari......
My feeling is that if you're making mediocre power now - something's not right - either timing or fueling


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Exhaust Plans*

I need to start to figure out my exhaust plans. As you will recall, I am going to put this into a Scirocco that has an A1 frame. I have been told that I can't use a standard (Golf/Jetta) MKII exhaust system as it will not fit so I need to get one that will fit the A1.
As I understand it, the Scirocco 16v manifold will fit WITH the Scirocco 16v Downpipe (thanks GTI_ART!) but the Passat 16v Exhaust manifold (which I have!) will not fit the Scirocco downpipe. I was told that I could use my 16v 9A exhaust manifold with a TT Downpipe, but am not sure which one I need.
There is also the header option, and I had a line on one in the classified, made a reasonable offer, but the seller didn't take it.
Can anyone let me know what I should be looking for?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: Exhaust Plans (PASHAT)*

i have an A1 TT race downpipe for sale that is 2-1 and fits onto a Rocco 16v manifold...
otherwise go for the TT tri-Y SS header... expensive but the best out there.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

A stock manifold on a new engine? Psh! That's ridiculous!
Consider a Pacesetter header if you don't feel like spending that much. They're not top-shelf or anything, but they're cheap and good.
And yeah I set the ignition and cam timing a little retarded just to play it safe for the first bit. That combined with the stock fuel settings would cause low power I assume. I'll check today if it's still leaking at that crank seal.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_A stock manifold on a new engine? Psh! That's ridiculous!
Consider a Pacesetter header if you don't feel like spending that much. They're not top-shelf or anything, but they're cheap and good.


1) a stock 4-2 manifold with a good downpipe is almost identical to a full header.
2) Pacesetters are true junk - the primary tubes are 1/8" smaller than the ports of a 16v engine. Any stock mani will outperform them!


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Exhaust Plans (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_i have an A1 TT race downpipe for sale that is 2-1 and fits onto a Rocco 16v manifold...


I don't have a stock Rocco Manifold. Mine is a 9A and the bolts for the downpipe won't line up??
I have heard good things about the stock being pretty good.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

I know what you mean about port sizes, I had to dremel the inside welding bead way down to port match the thing. I think it should be ok now though.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

The oil filter seal on my car lost it's bead (and the filter itself somehow came loose), and high-pressure oil started spraying everywhere. I retightened it, filled it with new oil since I lost all of the old oil, and tried it again. Same thing. It was a Fram filter. Has anyone else heard of this happening before? I drove it last night and it was fine, and this morning I found a huge puddle of oil under the car.
I don't get it. Could it be a faulty filter? Any input appreciated.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*

measure the outside diameter of the primary and subtract the thickness of the tube (.062/side I believe) and you will understand that the inside diameter of the primary is still smaller than the port of 16v head. If anything the header primary should be bigger (like the TT one at 1.75" primaries IIRC) in order to reduce the exhaust gas turbulence as it exits abd eliminate restriction.
16V according to the SCCA racers I've talked to is notorius for needing help on the exhaust side. So you throw in a bigger cam, do some porting and then throttle it all down with a Pacesetter LOL.....








Get one of these:








I have one on my A2 and it really makes a difference!! Just dont expect great gas mileage cos it really scavenges well - so it will suck a bit more raw intake out then stock does....








Put the Pacesetter on e-Bay...


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_The oil filter seal on my car lost it's bead (and the filter itself somehow came loose), and high-pressure oil started spraying everywhere. I retightened it, filled it with new oil since I lost all of the old oil, and tried it again. Same thing. It was a Fram filter. Has anyone else heard of this happening before? I drove it last night and it was fine, and this morning I found a huge puddle of oil under the car.
I don't get it. Could it be a faulty filter? Any input appreciated.

your oil pressure relief check valve in the oil pump is stuck most likely.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

yah, stuck relief. I've had it happen before. Was it a new oil pump? Mine was on an old pump, install a new one and it was OK. They are meant to be repaired the way they are put together. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

No it was old. Ordered one up. $100.


----------



## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (nic_s)*

Read this:
http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm
In their online store they have 16v headers for pretty cheap but I don't really have the cash and I'm not sure how they'd fit my B3 Passat.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

Hey Winnipeg Passat! Glad to see you drop by.
I checked out that link and it appears that they only sell headers for 16v Golf, Jettas and GTIs? None for Sciroccos or Passats.








Real good price though....205.00! I would buy one if it would fit, but don't think it would fit an A1 frame.....


----------



## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Maybe I'll order one up and if it doesn't fit my car you can try it in yours. There is a tonne of room in my car between my stock header and the firewall. What did you think of 'headers 101'?


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *winnipeg passat* »_Maybe I'll order one up and if it doesn't fit my car you can try it in yours. There is a tonne of room in my car between my stock header and the firewall. What did you think of 'headers 101'?

Yours should have a motor mount that it might collide with...mine doesn't have that rear engine motor mount!


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fit. Mk1s need that extra bend in the header, I forget for what though.

Meh, I should have gone for SS right away.... oh well a good power upgrade once I get used to the power I have.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Exhaust Discussion*

And, I take it my 16v 9A exhaust manifold will not bolt onto the existing 8v downpipe?
If not, is there an adapter?


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Exhaust Discussion (PASHAT)*

not unless you have a 16V rocco mani.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Exhaust Discussion (ps2375)*

With a 16v Rocco exhaust manifold, could I bolt up to the existing downpipe?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: Exhaust Discussion (PASHAT)*

the A1 needs a different exhaust from any A2 or B3 because the shifter linkage and motor mounts are totally different - there is no real mix & match that i'm aware of.
i have a rocco manifold somewhere - but it had a crack and i just decided to spend the $450 and get the stainless header from TT.
Its like i said probly on pg 1..... u have to pay to play







at least if you want all the other $$ you're spending to be worth it. U really need to upgrade to a full 2.5" system if ur gonna run cams. Even 2.25" helps.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Exhaust Discussion (PASHAT)*

I think so, my brother has the 16V mani and a tt dp(non-euro) that was in the 8V rocco. I'll get him to check if they mate up. We will be installing the 16V motor into the rocco early next year ( for the next auto-x season), but that may not be soon enough for you to know if they line up. But I will keep you informed if you would like. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by ps2375 at 7:29 AM 12-19-2007_


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

My perfect car.....
2032cc motor, balanced and blueprinted everything, custom GT30R, Big Schrick cams, standalone, bosch 044 pump, Custom clutch, 02a with lsd, recaro interior with votex console with boost, a/f, fuel pressure gauges on top, then nice head unit and some greddy controllers, Electronic boost controller and turbo timer would be nice.....
bla bla bla and make over 500 hp at the wheels.
oh snap, i think i've just described.....
http://boostfactory.net/article.php?id=32
My car.
Driven 60-70 miles per day.


----------



## PoorHouse (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (killa)*

When I bought the exhaust for my 16V MKI TT was no longer selling the Race header for 16V MKI's. I found a Rocco 16V mani for like $60 on here, got the TT Race down pipe and 2.25 exhaust. Since then I've heard many positive comments about the AutoTech 16V MKI header, it's cheaper than the TT was as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
TT is (was?) offering a down pipe that worked with the MK2 16V mani in MKI chassis.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PoorHouse)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PoorHouse* »_When I bought the exhaust for my 16V MKI TT was no longer selling the Race header for 16V MKI's. 

When was that?
I am having problems sorting out the TT website part numbers. Any assistance on part numbers would be helpful, for any of these parts. I will take a look at the autotech, but I think that header that was posted by ohiobenz is still on the website as available?

_Quote, originally posted by *PoorHouse* »_ Since then I've heard many positive comments about the AutoTech 16V MKI header, it's cheaper than the TT was as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


At the autotech site, I can't find an autotech 16v MK1 header...only an 8v MK1 header?
I have an exhaust manifold that came with the car. If that TT downpipe would fit it, I would be very interested...
Edit - Found the TT downpipe that is for a MKII mani in a MK1 frame....that is TT part number 251 112. It is 300.00 at the TT site...
The 16v Mark1 Race Header is 251 244. It is $450.00.



_Modified by PASHAT at 6:33 PM 12-19-2007_


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Should also check out Eurosport - http://www.eurosportacc.com/mk1headers.htm 
359.95 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PintSized)*

Click on a part number for more information.
Minimum Order $25.00 

Your Search Results 
Pick-up Truck (Caddy) '80 - '83 Aluminized
253.310F TT Exhaust Cat Back for 1981-1983 Pick Up w/16V 2.25 in. Flowmaster $300.00 

Jetta A1 '80 - '84 Aluminized
253.322B TT Ex. 2.25 in. cat back for 16V Jetta I 1980-1984 w/ Borla $390.00 

MK1Catalytic Converter
253.155 Catalytic Converter (Custom for Mk I 16V Street Header) $255.00 

MK4 Catalytic Converter
253.168 Catalytic Converter (Mk 3 or Mk 4 VR6 w/Header upgrade) $265.00 

Race Headers
251.240 TT Race Headers Mk1 8V, 4 into 1, 1.625in. 1975-1993 Mk1 chassis $425.00 
251.242 TT Race Headers MK1 8V, 4 into 1, 1.75in. $425.00 
251.244 TT Race Headers 16V 1.75 in. primary Mk1 $450.00 
251.245 TT Race Headers 16V 1.75 in. primary Mk1 with tall block engines $475.00 
251.246 TT Race Headers Mk2 8V, 4 into 1, 1.625in. 1985-1992 Mk2 Chassis $425.00 
251.250 TT Race Headers Mk2 16V 1.75 in. $450.00 
251.251 TT Race Headers Mk3 8V, 4 into 1, 1.625in. 1993-1998 Mk2 Chassis $425.00


----------



## PoorHouse (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

It was a year or so ago I talked to TT.
The 16V race header was listed on their site but was not available. Your best bet is to call them and see what they have and don't.

Eurospec header above is what I was thinking of, not Autotech.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PoorHouse)*

check out OBX on ebay - i've heard their headers are pretty good - never seen or tried one tho


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

I sent a message to one of the vendor of OBX to see if they had a 16v MK1 header (none currently for sale on e-bay) and have received no response.
But THESE arrived today!!








the Bosch injectors are 317cc, I believe
Getting closer....


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Careful with old injectors, they're usually way off each other's flow.
just a heads up.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_just a heads up.

Always useful....didn't know that. 

I will test their flow individually. I actually have eight of these so I can pick those that work consistently.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

oooh cool! It's for the ITB setup right?
Oh yeah, thought I'd ask this here....
My engine actually sits different with the solid motor mount I'm using. It's tilted forward slightly, and to the driver side. The tranny mount is new OEM, and the other rear mount is new OEM with a poly insert.
Is this intentional?


_Modified by nic_s at 8:02 AM 12-21-2007_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*

The fuel rail is necessary when going Megasquirt, as are the pulsed injectors (GoodBYE CIS!). 
The 1.8T fuel rail that was recommended and that I show in that picture will fit into the stock intake manifold. I do need new injector cups though. Anyone know if there is an option other than the dealership?
Sorry....don't know about solid motor mounts.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

G60 injector cups are pretty cheap - and they screw right in....


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_G60 injector cups are pretty cheap - and they screw right in....

Where can I get them? Dealership or are they available from other places.


----------



## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

They're pretty inexpensive from the dealer. Bring the guy some beer - quick was to start getting better deals! I get at least 20% off sometimes more depending on the part, not to bad for a case of cheap beer once in a while.


----------



## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

It sounds like its coming along great!
I my self scored a ported and polished head from a gent off of ebay who is brooming out all his 16V stuff. Paper work from a machine shop who inspected the head included!
Engine block, pistons, crank and all that is needed is at the machine shop getting bored .020 over and balanced! 
Now all I have to decide is what color to paint the block?????
Ill get some pics up for ya when i get the head in and block back from the shop.
Phill


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (Millennium Falcon)*

i decided to paint mine aluminum collor, so it looks cleaner and newer.
like an all aluminum block.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

light colors r better to show if leaks


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_light colors r better to show if leaks

Or you can paint it black to hide the leaks







Mine is gray.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

I've been away for a couple of weeks....okay, more like a month...and this project has been on the back burner and will likely stay there for another two months...too bloody cold here!
I'm am going to have to re-read my own thread to find out what I am doing!


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm in the same boat with my 9a. I think we should move somewhere warmer pashat.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_I sent a message to one of the vendor of OBX to see if they had a 16v MK1 header (none currently for sale on e-bay) and have received no response.
But THESE arrived today!!








the Bosch injectors are 317cc, I believe
Getting closer....

in order to use that, you need a itb set up, or short runner mani. or you need to do this








to run the stock manifold


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: project*

Well this one is done - for now... http://www.hotdub.com/pictures...um=18
There's always more to modd







but fired it up and put about 20 mi on it today.
It took me awhile to get the ABS functioning again but all is good now.
Accelleration with the 268/276 cams is incredible... this thing runs sooo strong now. Powerband def better in the higher range, low range is still good too. Glad I chose this combo!! Of course there are a LOT of other engine mods since the last time i had it on the road...


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

Cool! I've got pics of my motor up too now!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2...14779/


----------



## '88Jetta16v (Sep 5, 2005)

*Re: (nic_s)*

@ Nic S, who did your portwork?


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3668994
Sorry, don't mean to threadjack but that's my thread there.
BTW glad to see this thread is still rockin on.


_Modified by nic_s at 5:58 AM 2-5-2008_


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

I've been really busy at work, and it has been cold as heck here. I will be getting back on to this in the next month or so. So much to do!


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

any progress?


----------



## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm starting to catch up to you and this is my first build! Hope things get easier at work soon bro. Good work and good luck.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i got my block all rfreshed by the machine shop. now i need to come up with 325 to pick it up.


----------



## markeysscirocco (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

The 16V made for USA uses a body kit. That's a tail tail sign it's a 16V engine inside. Mine is the PL 1.8 using a 9A tranny right now while a rebiuld the 020 2Y 16V


----------



## Grig85 (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: (markeysscirocco)*

I am building a 16v, and I got to say this thread is http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (Grig85)*

I didnt see that you had the rods reworked anywhere - i'd strongly suggest you get the crank ends resized....
After all the work I put in mine... even at 80psi oil pressure it has a bad rod so its gotta come back apart... took 1000 miles to show up








Usually I resize them but didnt have the $ to do it at the time... Also going to do ARP rod studs while they r back out...


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

I had mine resized, and I did the ARP rod studs too. Apparently good for a higher reving engine.

Quick question: It feels like my CIS-E on my 16V leans out after about 5,000 rpm, since there is no power and it's basically impossible to reach redline. Strong midrange power though. Any ideas on what it might be? It did this before the rebuild too, so I'm guessing a part failure of some sort. All 'hard' parts are new (anything non-electronic or fuel related).


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*

whenever i had a problem like you describe it was usually out of time a tooth...


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
Sorry....don't know about solid motor mounts.

use the bfi stage 1 mounts. My buddy has them on his mk2 vr and you cant tell the differnce between stock and them.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

Interesting. 








I've got this Autotech adjustable cam gear, and I set it to retard as much as possible so that it would run in 'safe' mode when I first put it together. Probably time to advance it a bit. I don't trust CIS anyways though, so I'll be looking to upgrade to something a bit better at some point in the future.
Wait, I just did some thinking... the Autotech website says retarding timing should shift the powerband upwards, thats weird. I thought it was the opposite. That means I should have a really good top end then...










_Modified by nic_s at 7:14 AM 2-29-2008_


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i am getting my engine next week, so sweet!


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

I could use some input on the whole cam timing thing. Any ideas out there?


----------



## Blu_Hare (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_I've been really busy at work, and it has been cold as heck here. I will be getting back on to this in the next month or so. So much to do! 

alright PASHAT, it's _been_ a month already








or so










_Modified by GTrabbIt at 4:26 PM 3-8-2008_


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (GTrabbIt)*

yeh, exactly, where are the updates?


----------



## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

Patience young pad-won's! A watched pot never boils!


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_I didnt see that you had the rods reworked anywhere - i'd strongly suggest you get the crank ends resized....
After all the work I put in mine... even at 80psi oil pressure it has a bad rod so its gotta come back apart... took 1000 miles to show up








Usually I resize them but didnt have the $ to do it at the time... Also going to do ARP rod studs while they r back out...

whats really weird is that when i pulled this apart, the crank timing belt pulley key had sheared 1/2 way... And yes it was on tight - very tight...
So another thought for you guys building a 16v - pin the timing pulley after bolting it on so it cant move!!!


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

having removed one just recently, I think the damage to the key is from the removing. Ours was also on VERY tight, and took alot of force to break the bolt loose. the key was sheared from that. I found that some loctite between the sprocket and nose of the crank will keep things from moving around even with a tight bolt. And also keeps any dirt/corrosion from getting in there and creating a loose condition and hammering the key off.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_having removed one just recently, I think the damage to the key is from the removing. Ours was also on VERY tight, and took alot of force to break the bolt loose. the key was sheared from that. I found that some loctite between the sprocket and nose of the crank will keep things from moving around even with a tight bolt. And also keeps any dirt/corrosion from getting in there and creating a loose condition and hammering the key off.

could be... however, the motor did have a spun rod bearing, and the other block I pulled a gear from was even tighter... but key was fine.
Loctite might work, but I think I'll just pin mine... pre-drill the hole through the gear before assembly... Not worth the risk $$ to have another one shear. 
Was first time really to have one do this without the bolt being loose....


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i am about to put the engine on a stand, please, lmk what bolts i need please.
thank you


----------



## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

used head bolts works great! (from gas engines)


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (volks25)*

no doubt they do, what sizes please?


----------



## derekste (Jan 26, 2005)

m12x1.75.. I got 120mm long ones and used washers as spacers


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (derekste)*

thanks to all. will order them.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

not to high jack the thread, but, i was inspecting my block after the machine shop and figured out it was never hottanked, damn i got furious! i will be going down there this monday.


----------



## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

How can you tell? When I first ran my block there was a HUGE amount of shavings in the oil, I think they may have done the same on mine. It actually wrecked my stock oil pump.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nic_s* »_How can you tell? When I first ran my block there was a HUGE amount of shavings in the oil, I think they may have done the same on mine. It actually wrecked my stock oil pump.

one telltale sign is the frost plugs are usually gone...


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

Dear Pashat, any progress? It is warm already. At least wher i live.


----------



## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

Ya man! I'm a little over an hour way and I sleep with the windows open now!!
WOOT for warm weather!


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i took my block to another shop today, that actually did a hot tanking and another honing, so another 80 bux left my wallet.


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (volks25)*

i did it yesterday and yes they really work well! thank you for the advice!







( mean the head bolts for engine stand)


_Modified by manfredwerner at 9:36 AM 4-21-2008_


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

can't wait with the final result from pashat, i must find out wheather the engine will be an oil eater, coz mine has similar wear and i am far from finishing. i painted the block with primer, paint and clear coat, looks sexy!


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

putting my son's engine back together after the spun rod brg...
note to anyone using the ARP rod bolts. Get the rods resized with the ARP bolts in them and then just torque them to 28ft/lbs cos they will have already got them seated when they sized the rods...
If u r just replacing rod bolts with ARP - make sure you do the 3x tighty-loosy sequence!!!
If you didnt get ARP.... shame on u LOL
Oh yeah, dont forget 12pt crank pulley bolts are 1x use....
put that under stupid stuff that can bite u in the a$$.... and the $$ is for real


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

so, how about a little diy on how to correctly instal rod bolts? without going to the machine shop. on the cheap.
thanks.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_so, how about a little diy on how to correctly instal rod bolts? without going to the machine shop. on the cheap.
thanks.

after this last deal of spinning the #2 rod bearing... I will just send the rods to the shop to get resized and the new studs put in at that time....
DIY - I've just held them in my hand and hit the end of the stud with a non-steel hammer. They are only held in by about a 1/4 serrated shoulder. To replace, just push the ARP in as far as you can, put the cap on and use the nuts to evenly pull the studs into the rod....use the ARP lube...


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Millennium Falcon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Millennium Falcon* »_Ya man! I'm a little over an hour way and I sleep with the windows open now!!
WOOT for warm weather!

You Are NOT a little over an hour away. Okay folks. Work has finally settled down and I will be back on this soon. I just had my machinest drop by to find out what I wanted done to my IM shaft and he will be balancing it. Then I can get the bottom end basically done. I will be dealing with the head next and figuring out how I will be able to afford a decent exhaust system.
Thanks for patience everyone!


----------



## Aladinsane07 (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

Congrats on the progress! I finally finished reading through this entire thread- some really knowledgeable cats in here. 
Can't wait to see this come together. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Millennium Falcon (Jan 29, 2004)

Got my engine back from the machinist the other day, man did he do a nice job. Ill post some pics later.
Phill


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

and i am selling my all 16v stuff due to loosing the garage this summer, now that i have almost all ready.


----------



## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

Sorry to here about your loss.
I have been working on my 8v Golf, but hope to be back to this one soon.


----------



## dpgreek (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

great build man! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

any progress?


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

just a note...
Somebody had asked about the order of assembly.
Usually after the oil squirters I do the IM, then the crank and next piston/rods.
There is one exception to that - if you are going to Wiseco and possibly JE pistons, drop them in first - then tweak the oil squirters so they dont hit the piston webbing.... 
You have to turn the little tube a little, then redirect the thin part back to squirt on the back of the piston head.... Something to be careful in doing and then drop the crank in without bolting it down - attach the rod/piston combo and carefully turn it over to make sure it clears at BDC of stroke!!
Once you have one squirter so it clears - you can remove it and match all the others to it.
As was stated earlier - cut off some old fuel line pieces about 2" long to go over the rod studs so you dont put nicks in the crank journal.


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

i had mentioned stainless steel bolts for the motor external stuff.... Finally got around to making a list/spreadsheet of all the ones i use when i "pretty up" a motor. Couple ones to finish off tomorrow and i'll get some prices for a complete 16v kit...


----------



## diablo420 (Aug 20, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

ill be looking for a kit like that real soon


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (diablo420)*

Here's the list of hardware on the motor. Rather than list all the different lengths and thread sizes... If you want those also, drop me an IM with your e-mail and i'll send you the spreadsheet.
*Stainless SHCS Bolts for:*
COLD START INJECTOR
DISTRIBUTOR
FRONT MAIN SEAL HOUSING
OIL PAN
REAR MAIN SEAL HOUSING
STEEL HEATER PIPE TO HEAD
STEEL HEATER PIPE TO MOTOR MOUNT
UPPER TIMING COVER
VALVE COVER
WATER OUTLET DRIVER SIDE HEAD
WATER OUTLET FRONT HEAD
VALVE COVER
POWER STEERING PULLEY
1.8-16V UPPER WATER PUMP BRACKET
AC ADJUSTMENT BRACKET
DISTRIBUTOR HOLD DOWN CLAMP
FRONT MAIN SEAL HOUSING
IM SHAFT RETAINER
POWER STEERING TO MID BRACKET
TIMING BELT BACK PLATE
UPPER INTAKE BRACKETS
WATER PUMP PULLEY
KNOCK SENSOR (1EA)
LOWER INTAKE
OIL FILTER HOUSING
POWER STEERING TO FRONT BRACKET
UPPER WATER PUMP BOLTS
CRANK CASE BREATHER BOX
HARMONIC BALANCER PULLEY
REAR MOTOR MOUNT TO BLOCK SHORT
REAR PS BRACKET
REAR MOTOR MOUNT TO BLOCK LONG
REAR MOTOR MOUNT TO MOUNT
POWER STEERING FRONT MOUNT SHORT
POWER STEERING FRONT MOUNT LONG
ALT TO BRACKET
AC TO BRACKET
*Stainless Washers for:*
VALVE COVER
LOWER TIMING COVER
OIL PAN
UPPER TIMING COVER
AC BRACKET
AC TO ADJUSTMENT BRACKET
DISTRIBUTOR HOLD DOWN CLAMP
KNOCK SENSOR (3EA)
POWER STEERING TO FRONT BRACKET
REAR MOUNT TO BLOCK
REAR PS BRACKET
UPPER INTAKE
WATER PUMP PULLEY
ALT TO BRACKET
AC TO BRACKET
*Stainless Nylok nuts for:*
OUTER CAMSHAFT BEARING CAP
LOWER TIMING COVER
AC BRACKET
AC TO ADJ BRACKET
POWER STEERING TO REAR BRACKET
UPPER INTAKE


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

how about an ABA kit? not buying yet, just curious.


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_how about an ABA kit? not buying yet, just curious.

im sure i can work one of those out if somebody wants it... Most of the stuff is the same, only a couple different nuts or bolts


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

let's see, how much my "just an aba swap'' drains me for, damn it, i should have just swapped the bottom end!


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

the motor for my son's GLI is done...
Waiting on a Helicoil kit to fix the stripped 12mm threads in the tranny.








New updates on this rebuild:
remote oil cooler and thermo sandwich
oil filter relocation kit
6 puck clutch & LUK HD pressure plate
old style 16v AC/Alt bracket


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *manfredwerner* »_any progress?

Hi folks:
I have had some family issues come up that have left me with NO time for the last few months. Things are still pretty busy, but not insane like they have been. I might get some time soon to get back to this project. I will be looking at doing some headwork and posting pictures. I have two complete heads, so I can likely afford a few mistakes.
I did, just this week, receive a set of Schrick 268 Cams. Those of you who have followed this post know that I was leaning for a set with that duration. BTW, if someone else is looking, I found out after I bought them that 16vNitrous has a set for sale right now...and he's a really helpful guy.
So, I will likely be dismantling the head, and doing a P&P job on it, replacing the guides and seeing where I am at.
I might have to re-read this thread so I can remember what I am doing.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (PASHAT)*

GL! i put mine asaide for now. i am swapping an aba now. just to get it moving.


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## chance91 (Nov 12, 2007)

I swear, its neccessary! Pretty cool though, ya? If anyone lives in So cal, I have no life and will do these for next to nothing, I'm just pretty bored.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (chance91)*

how did you do it?


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

my son's GLI should be done today, was waiting on some fitting pieces to complete the oil cooler switch.
here's a link to all the latest pix... 
http://www.hotdub.com/pictures...ge=10
and the "back in" pic


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

who took all the pics?That looks to be almost as much work as the car?







Nice documentation though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Does oil drain out out the filter and make a mess when changing, or is that not a problem? Also, I would be worried about an air pocket in it.... 
Thebuild looks great. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I hope it runs as good as it looks, and for all the time and effort you have into it, it should last for a very long time. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (ps2375)*

we brought this car home in '04 and it was "running" a year later...
Spun a rod bearing due to oil consumption after about 10K,
Fired back up after the complete motor rebuild in '07, then because i forgot to resize the rods, again that winter. So its been another year...
yeah, between the owner and myself we took all the pix over a period of 4 yrs now LOL.
each time it was down - more mods of course....


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## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

OK, not 16v engine related, but could some of you 16Vers have a look at my topic in the 'Interior' section?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4041685
Thanks guys!
Yeah and OhioBenz, that GLi is still looking crazy...


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nic_s)*

posted on your thread...
thanks on the GLI.. Just fired it up!! and promptly blew the cap that closes off the old h2o outlet to the oil cooler - just split it wide open... cheap chinese junk


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

Ran almost a tank of gas through the GLI now. Had it up to 120 this morning... nice and smooth but power seems to drop off at around 6000. Going to have to check ignition timing and maybe advance the cam pulley 4deg as some recommend. Power up to 6000 is VERY smooth. The GAIC chip runs a lot leaner - dont see the black smoke from the exhaust like i did with the TT chip....
Now thinking of going to the .75 5th gear swap - its got plenty of power and that will give me more top end speed and better gas mileage (currently at 27mpg)
Today i'm rebuilding the PS pump (Advanced Auto has a full kit for $43) next is replacing the worn-out alternator.... That should quiet things down a bit LOL.
And looking at those $80 Raceland SS headers on e-Bay.....


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## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

Let me know if you decide to get the Racelands.
I didnt even know a PS pump could be rebuilt!!! Glad to hear the car's running nice.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i will be back to reb my 16v soon. again. needs to be bored. or new pistons with original size, the pistons are almost at the end of wear limit.


_Modified by manfredwerner at 10:51 PM 10-19-2008_


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## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

What's wrong with it?


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (trn905)*

developed an oil leak... rear main from the looks of things - so will have to drop tranny this sunday and replace it.
i think the much cooler oil is the reason. At starts, the 15W50 pegs my oil pressure gauge.....
even after an hour of highway driving the oil temps are still at 180 max and psi is a steady 60-65 while driving.


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

oil leak ended up being from a combination of the re-used oil pan baffle/gasket and the oil pressure sending unit....
Meanwhile I replaced the 5th gear with a .75 unit so it can get better gas mileage







also right driveshaft, right side output seals and put in a new G60 tranny mount and a spring non-hydro front mount...


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## badboyripper (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

This post kicks ass!! I'm getting ready to rebuild my 9a that I picked up for my 1990 Golf and am looking forward to getting started on it. It will be my first rebuild, and I'm excited to get my hands dirty. You are doing almost exactly what I will be from the rebuild to the MS as well. 
Keep the updates coming!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (badboyripper)*

if u own a Dub u better be ready to deal with agrevations....
After fixing the oil leak i noticed a fuel leak at the outside main pump...
bad housing so tear all that out, replace with good non-rusted lines, replace the rubber isolation mounts, all stainless nuts & washers, non leaking housing etc... fire it up







no more leaks...
back down the drive to go for a test drive & it blows a rear brake line!!! GRRRRR!


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## Aladinsane07 (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhioBenz* »_
back down the drive to go for a test drive & it blows a rear brake line!!! GRRRRR!

Ha That's got to be frustrating. Did you get it fixed?


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## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (Aladinsane07)*

oh, i got all the lines fixed/replaced with new stuff... and now this: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4128094


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## dubsmith (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (OhioBenz)*

AHHH! Great thread!! , I have a 9A that came with a trans I bought for my GTI , and just picked up a head, I'm just afraid I dont have the budget for the type of build I want and you guys are in to... MY first ABA was balanced and the head was ported, polished , and flowed,, dam thing was a monster, and the first motor I built... 
Well thanks for all the info guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: I'm back*

I have just got my IM shaft back from the machinest, so I am ready to get back at er. I am going to have to read this whole thread again to find out what the heck I did and what I still have left to do...something about heads...


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

weeblebiker said:


> just use a 6 piece main thrust bearing with the washers. you can get just # 3 main from the dealer for under $50 and toss the 2 piece main thrust that normally come in the kits.
> yah the first rebuild is fun.
> it gets kinda old after 3 though


Instead of starting a new post and then being told to use the " search function" I'm bringing this thread back to the top.

Your the second person, on this thread, to mention that you should not use the two piece main thrust bearing that comes in the rebuild kits.

Any particular reason to why this is a no no? I'm in the process of starting my ABA rebuild (a very low budget build) and just noticed that I have this 2 piece set-up in my rebuild kit. Should I keep it or toss it??

I want to do this build right so feedback would appreciated!


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

Mr.loops said:


> Instead of starting a new post and then being told to use the " search function" I'm bringing this thread back to the top.
> 
> Your the second person, on this thread, to mention that you should not use the two piece main thrust bearing that comes in the rebuild kits.
> 
> ...


toss it


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

Snip...
_Although thrust bearings run on a thin film of oil, just like radial journal (connecting rod and main) bearings, they cannot support nearly as much load. While radial bearings can carry loads measured in thousands of pounds per square inch of projected bearing area, thrust bearings can only support loads of a few hundred psi. Radial journal bearings develop their higher load capacity from the way the curved surfaces of the bearing and journal meet to form a wedge. Shaft rotation pulls oil into this wedge shaped area of the clearance space to create an oil film, which actually supports the shaft. Thrust bearings typically consist of two flat mating surfaces with no natural wedge shape in the clearance space to promote the formation of an oil film to support the load.
Conventional thrust bearings are made by incorporating flanges at the ends of a radial journal bearing. This provides ease in assembly and this design has been used successfully for many years. Either tear-drop or through grooves on the flange faces and wedge shaped ramps at each parting line allow oil to enter between the shaft and bearing surfaces. However, the vast majority of the bearing surfaces and the entire shaft surface are flat making it much harder to create and maintain an oil film. If you have ever taken two gauge blocks and wiped them perfectly clean and pressed them together with a twisting action you know that they will stick together. This is very much like what happens as a thrust load applied to the end of a crankshaft squeezes the oil out from between the shaft and bearing surfaces. If the load is too great, the oil film collapses and the surfaces want to stick together, resulting in a wiping failure.

For many years some heavy-duty diesel engines have used separate thrust washers with a profiled face to enable them to support higher thrust loads. These thrust washers either have multiple tapered ramps and relatively small flat pads or have curved surfaces that follow a sine wave contour around their circumference.
_

Source:
http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf

Excellent explanation


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