# Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions...



## Bobcdn (Oct 5, 2000)

I am going to be doing a VR6 swap into a A1 and I want to have AC. Is this possible? I was thinking that if I used everything from the A1 and just used the VR6 compressor that it should work fine but I don't know about how well it will fit? I want to be able to use the power steering as well.
Also I see that this web site has the parts to mount the VR6 in; http://www.schubert-fahrzeugtechnik.de/sites-golf1-motor-1_8t-selbstein.html But since I can't translate what the site says I have no idea how expensive it is or how to get it from them...
My other thought was to cut the A1 control arm mounts off and mount the Vr6 sub frame to the body by welding some plates for the mounting bolts. And also using the front cross member- but the front one would be simple. I would also use a later model steering columb for this to hopefully make thing easier.


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## xyxang (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Bobcdn)*

Anything is possible including an a1vr6 with a/c and p/s. P/S is easy, vr6 high-press line fits directly to a1 rack. Change location of resovoir and that's done. A/C would require custom made lines, not too hard these days.
I checked out the website link, and the picture was not very helpful. But I can explain to you through logic that even with all the adapters in the world, the front core support and motor mount cross member in the a1 chassis cannot hold the weight nor power of the vr6. The a1 front "buffer"' mount is not load bearing. I believe that it prevents excessive engine movment and absorbs some vibration. And the sheetmetal that comprises the front cross section of the a1 chassis is not of the same thickness as a vr6 front crossmember. The upper 'swiss cheese" half of the front engine mount for a vr6 bears a substantial amount of the engine/transaxle weight and the lower half prevents excessive movement and can take a severe beating under hard acceleration. 
Anyways, attaching the vr6 front engine carrier to the a1 frame rails is the proper way to do the front setup. Welding the x-member solid and eliminating the 4 rubber donut bushings also helps prevent engine rocking and does not seem to increase vibrations compared to a 4-cyl a1 or factory vr6, provided a stock vr6 front motor mount is used.
As for the rear, I've seen the whole vr6 subframe installed to where the car was driveable, but this appears to be an incredible amount of work and I would question whether the front suspension caster angles (which are non-adjustable) would be correct using the a1 strut tops. Try welding the cups that hold the factory mounts into the lower unibody right above where the forward control arm bushing is. If you make a jig, you will see that there is barely room with a little bit of creativety. Then the steering rack, all of the suspension, and the axles do not have to be changed, only inspected or repaired to insure excellent condition. 
After motor swap is completed, recomended upgrades would be 11" front brakes, coil-over suspension, tie-bars, poly-bushings wherever possible, Techtonics will help you with a 2.5' exhaust, and some good tires!!! If it works, I'm attaching a picture of my rear mounts.
















Ryan

ps- you do realize what you're getting into don't you? The work is tedious, but if done properly, the reward is a reliable, fast, classic, and very unique car that carries a real "'wow"' factor wherever you pop the hood. 

[Modified by xyxang, 11:51 AM 9-7-2002]

[Modified by xyxang, 12:05 PM 9-7-2002]


[Modified by xyxang, 12:05 PM 9-7-2002]


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (xyxang)*

I can attest to the WOW factor, every Thursday for the past 2 months it still impesses the hell out of me!


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## Bobcdn (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (xyxang)*

Ryan,
Thanks for all the info. I am in the process(as money allows) of rounding up all the nessesary parts for "my project X". I am aware that it is going to be a labour of blood sweat tears and money.
As for the caster angle I was considering cutting the strut towers off a Corrado and welding them into the A1 where ever it was nessesary to make the caster work. Also that way I could use the VR6 strut mounts. Then I got to thinking that I should maybe use the sub frame as well. Then I started to get carried away thinking that I should cut the tunnel, fire wall, inner fenders out of a Corrado and weld the whole Corrado engine bay into the A1. 
Since this will be a groud up project the possiblities are still open. I am just trying to do the research on it right now so that I know weather I want to go the rote that has already been proven or take my own approach. I am going to start measuring up to see if some of my ideas would even work.
Thanks for the pics.
Bob.


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## fast8vvw (Mar 23, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Bobcdn)*

I'm in the same boat you're in. A1 VR6 swap. Luckey my old man speaks german and was nice enough to call that company in germany for me about the engine brackets. theres about 7 in total 3 need to be welded in and the other ones just bolt to factory location. 2 of the 3 that have to be welded in are so you can put the front VR6 subframe in . it's a bit pricey though,,,,, around 800 euro's. but you get a book with detailed instructions on how to do the engine install, fuel lines, wiring, brakes so its a good deal if your up for the job.


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## steveedub (Jan 2, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (fast8vvw)*

I would give Enzo at Autobahn in woodbridge a visit he's had his hands in building at least one of these swaps perhaps even two,(funny both of these cars were owned by guys in my area which I hang around with) don't know if he will tell you any secrets but I am sure he will help you out in someway.


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (respectVW)*

i hope its a straight out drag car. cause that thing will be doing an endo parked. way to heavy of a motor for that car, will handle like crap. sorry.


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## Bobcdn (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (VW1990CORRADO)*

You wanna talk about nose heavy, one of my first engine swap was after the head gasket blew in my 88 Toyota 4x4. Instead of replacing the head gasket I yanked the 4 cyl & 5 spd out and installed a 91 Ford Mustang 5.0L HO V8 w/ C4 trans and the Toyota transfer case. The engine is still completely computer controlled and w/ all the emissions removed is generating ~250 HP. It has been drove as a daily driver for the last 7 years w/ no problems, but yeah its nose heavy... you can really feel the back end move around at speeds...
I plan on building mine as a daily driver. I don't see the point in dumping all my money into something that just sits around collecting dust. That is why I want it to have PS and AC, I also plan to use that dynomat sound deadening and have coilover suspension so that I can raise it up to drive in though the winter if I want! 
I guess I am just the kind of guy that thinks cars shouldn't be treated like furniture! If your gonna build em... DRIVE EM!


[Modified by Bobcdn, 7:28 AM 9-11-2002]


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## xyxang (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (VW1990CORRADO)*

VW1990CORRADO,
Don't be sorry, just get your information right. The vr6 is not too heavy for that car and IF setup properly, the a1 vr6 will handle like any other vr6 car, I'm speaking from experience. Use some basic logic and deduction.....
The A3 chassis GTI came with a 4 and a 6 cylinder. No one ever claims the a3 GTI VR6 to be a poor handler or "endo parked" eh? Why is that?? The GTI vr6 was given a stiffer spring rate, and heavier damped shocks to make the car a proper handling street car. The a1 car came with a 4-cyl, we know that a 6-cyl can fit. So it only makes sense that with the same considerations that the factory made when designing the a3 gti vr6, the a1 with a vr6 can handle as well as an a3 vr6. 
As long as you have the correct spring rate and good shocks, the car will handle fine for the street. Now if you're building an autocrosser....a 4-cyl might have an advantage but I don't know because I don't have any experince in that area. But I do have experince in motor swapping (done 35 watercooled swaps) and street perfromance, and my 88 a1 cabrio vr6 handles great. 
I propose that from now on only people with actual hands on experience be allowed to make factual statements, and that the statement refer to what they actually know not what they think that they know.....

Ryan 
88 cabrio vr6t, daily driver, 1/4 mile- [email protected]
-total weight: 27100lbs. LF-830 RF-864 LR-514 RR-502
- F/R ratio: 62%/38%
-crossweigths (used to determine handling) LF-RR=49.1%
RF-LR=50.9%


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## dubstyl (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (xyxang)*

quote:[HR][/HR]VW1990CORRADO, I propose that from now on only people with actual hands on experience be allowed to make factual statements, and that the statement refer to what they actually know not what they think that they know.....[HR][/HR]​It is kinda funny how _all_ the posts about crappy handling VR6 swaps are _always_ by people that _don't_ drive one. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## superslowGTI86 (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (dubstyl)*

how much does a vr6 swap into an a2 costs? i know a bunch of you guys have done this, but i am not too good with wires, and i really dont have the time to swap it myself. how much would it cost to have someone round up all the parts needed, and swap it in???? if you could help me out with some info, that would be great. by the way...im not in the section of the form too often, so if you could, email me at [email protected] http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (dubstyl)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
It is kinda funny how _all_ the posts about crappy handling VR6 swaps are _always_ by people that _don't_ drive one. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif [HR][/HR]​well said....... 
sombody needs to post pix of a daily driver VR6 A1?


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## Clean97GTi (Nov 28, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (xyxang)*

quote:[HR][/HR] The A3 chassis GTI came with a 4 and a 6 cylinder. No one ever claims the a3 GTI VR6 to be a poor handler or "endo parked" eh? Why is that?? The GTI vr6 was given a stiffer spring rate, and heavier damped shocks to make the car a proper handling street car. [HR][/HR]​While its not a "poor handler" its not as good as the 4-cyl. Anyone who's driven a VR6 at a Solo2 event can vouch for that. I prefer the 2.0 for its lighter weight and the benefit this gives to handling. A properly set up A1 with a VR6 (read coil-over setup) should be very quick in a straight line and handle with the best of them.


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## BLuRaBbit (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Clean97GTi)*

80/20 weight ratio... mkIII is a heavy car which the weight can be more evenly distributed with a engine of that size...a properly set up mkII vr6 can never take a turn like a mkII 16v.i love the vr but if ur gonna want to take some "sick" turns and not be more held down to the quarter mile go with a g60 or a 2.0 16v in your mk1 and if u got the loot... the number 1 swap for any car is a 1.8t... unreal tuning capabilites. lighter than the vr.. and 10 times more of a wow piece.. vr's are played.


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## steveedub (Jan 2, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (the12for12)*

Well not really a daily driver but street driven.There is this one here in Toronto, which has been sold I think to someone in buffalo.


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## andymatthew (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (xyxang)*

YOU ARE SO RIGHT 
IF YOU NEVER DRIVEN AN A1 VR6 SHUT YOUR MOUTH !!!!!!!!!!
I REMEMBER NOT TO LONG AGO IN THIS SAME FORUM
SOME CAVEMAN SAYING IT CANNOT BE DONE WITHOUT 
BUTCHERING THE CAR.


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## junglistdubber (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (BLuRaBbit)*

not to flame or anything BLuRaBbit, but the 1.8t and vr6 come out to weight the same....you have to factor in the turbo, manifold, IC, tubing, and all the other stuff the 1.8t has extra on it.... and a mkII VR can handle as good as an mkIII vr, been in both... they just have to be setup properly


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## Biodome (Dec 7, 2000)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (junglistdubber)*

ive owned 1.8t and VR6 powered mk4's and i know that the 1.8t is ONLY 70lbs lighter than the 6, not the same weight.
e.


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

*Help! Similar painfully expesive swap!*

I am trying to swap a 2.8L V6 from a 98 Audi A6 into my 1987 Fox. The motor will physically fit and I am working on getting the pedal assembly, instrument cluster, and brake cylinder from the same car. I have the harness, ecu and tranny for it. I just need help. I've seen a rally Fox with this swap done but can't find any info on how it was done.
Thanks in Advance
EF


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## caddyrado (Feb 3, 2001)

*Re: Help! Similar painfully expesive swap! (efritsch)*

xyxang-- do you still use the cabby as a daily driver? I saw the car last year at the Chicago show and I will vouch for the WOW factor.


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## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (BLuRaBbit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]80/20 weight ratio... mkIII is a heavy car which the weight can be more evenly distributed with a engine of that size...a properly set up mkII vr6 can never take a turn like a mkII 16v.i love the vr but if ur gonna want to take some "sick" turns and not be more held down to the quarter mile go with a g60 or a 2.0 16v in your mk1 and if u got the loot... the number 1 swap for any car is a 1.8t... unreal tuning capabilites. lighter than the vr.. and 10 times more of a wow piece.. vr's are played. [HR][/HR]​Since you're such an expert on how an a2-vr6 handles,I won't bother to tell you that my 92 vr6-converted gti handles BETTER than my 91 16v gti. And that ATL local Blown_sixdub uses his a2-vr6 for track days at road A. IIRC,Metallitubby won a couple SCCA solo meets in his a3 vr6. I'm sure that you wouldn't have an anti-vr6 opinion,if you actually knew what you were talking about. A vr6 engine is about 80-90 lbs heavier than a 2.0 16v.(the 2.0 isn't really a very light motor BTW)
BTW,did you notice junglistdubber's post above? The weight difference between a vr6 and a 1.8t is very small( heard that it's less than 50 lbs) edit-I stand corrected-turbofreak says it's 70 lbs.
Vr's played? Yeah,right. Opinions offered up by know-it-alls who don't really know anything are really what's played.



[Modified by vr6swap, 8:17 PM 9-26-2002]


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (vr6swap)*

<<<88 cabrio vr6t, daily driver, 1/4 mile- [email protected]
-total weight: 2700lbs. LF-830 RF-864 LR-514 RR-502
- F/R ratio: 62%/38%
-crossweigths (used to determine handling) LF-RR=49.1%
RF-LR=50.9%>>>

Ryan, that is really impressive how you sweated that last detail, makes me wanna swap a VR in my pickup even more...nice job on the car.
p.s. probably like 3 people on the 'tex know what any of the above info means....does your head hurt yet?


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## Bicycle019 (Mar 30, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (lugnuts)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
I propose that from now on only people with actual hands on experience be allowed to make factual statements, and that the statement refer to what they actually know not what they think that they know.....[HR][/HR]​That's one of the greatest quotes I've read on Vortex yet! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## King (May 10, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (BLuRaBbit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]80/20 weight ratio... mkIII is a heavy car which the weight can be more evenly distributed with a engine of that size...a properly set up mkII vr6 can never take a turn like a mkII 16v.i love the vr but if ur gonna want to take some "sick" turns and not be more held down to the quarter mile go with a g60 or a 2.0 16v in your mk1 and if u got the loot... the number 1 swap for any car is a 1.8t... unreal tuning capabilites. lighter than the vr.. and 10 times more of a wow piece.. vr's are played. [HR][/HR]​
everyone loves an expert







I had this discussion too many times when I had my MK2 VR swap, the weight difference is not even worth talking about, and if it's properly dialed in, you can corner like a muthapucker.....


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## Jackasic (Mar 22, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (lugnuts)*

quote:[HR][/HR]<<<88 cabrio vr6t, daily driver, 1/4 mile- [email protected]
-total weight: 2700lbs. LF-830 RF-864 LR-514 RR-502
- F/R ratio: 62%/38%
-crossweigths (used to determine handling) LF-RR=49.1%
RF-LR=50.9%>>>
p.s. probably like 3 people on the 'tex know what any of the above info means....does your head hurt yet?
[HR][/HR]​What could possably be difficult about understanding this? Are people really that dim? Impressive balance though.


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Jackasic)*

Lugnuts is the man,he always comes in with the FACTS and slaps the hell out of you with them.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


[Modified by Scrubby, 6:59 PM 9-28-2002]


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## shaferabbit (Sep 21, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Scrubby)*

the way i look at it is people always build crazy cars and why not i mean a vr in an a1 chassis may not exactly be the best idea(i love the idea personally) but if this is what you are wanting to do go for it and i would like to do the same swap but i am not financially capable of it at the time so ill stick my aba digifant a1 conversion


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## white rabbit (Jul 23, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Jackasic)*

quote:[HR][/HR]<<<88 cabrio vr6t, daily driver, 1/4 mile- [email protected]
-total weight: 2700lbs. LF-830 RF-864 LR-514 RR-502
- F/R ratio: 62%/38%
-crossweigths (used to determine handling) LF-RR=49.1%
RF-LR=50.9%>>>[HR][/HR]​Does anyone have this kind of info on a regular rabbit or mk1 scirocco with a VR6? The cabriolets are a little heavier in the rear due to chassis reinforcements. It may or may not make a difference in the weight distribution, something to think about though. 
I like VR6's in A1's, perfect weight distribution isn't the most important thing especially in a street car that's purpose is to turn heads and embarass people in a straight line. 
I don't think I could pull off a swap like that though, atleast not without some good help.


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## fast8vvw (Mar 23, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Bobcdn)*

go to this site. if you can speak german you got a plus.
http://www.schubert-fahrzeugtechnik.de/


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (fast8vvw)*

quote:[HR][/HR]88 cabrio vr6t, daily driver, 1/4 mile- [email protected]
-total weight: 27100lbs. LF-830 RF-864 LR-514 RR-502
- F/R ratio: 62%/38%
-crossweigths (used to determine handling) LF-RR=49.1%
RF-LR=50.9%[HR][/HR]​Interesting, but does the Cabby _really_ weigh 27,100 lbs?


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## mobikat (Sep 30, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (VW1990CORRADO)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i hope its a straight out drag car. cause that thing will be doing an endo parked. way to heavy of a motor for that car, will handle like crap. sorry.[HR][/HR]​All i have to say is, the ppl that make comments like that either dont have the money or knowledge to pull of that swap. so the put it down for others... just makes me wanna do it more tho http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Meaney (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (mobikat)*

Is anyone else currently making engine mounts for the A1 VR6 swap. Anyone in the US? My Cousin is swapping a VR6 into one of the prettiest OldSkool 16V Scirocco's you will ever see. Just wanna make sure that the quality of the swap matches the overall quality of the car http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vortexblue (Jan 27, 2001)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (Meaney)*

I was just about to send you a link to this thread.
If he's gonna do that swap, he should take into account an important point made above by xyxang. The front crossmember is not a load-bearing member. Great point.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



[Modified by vortexblue, 1:13 AM 11-11-2002]


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## Meaney (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Planning a A1 VR6 swap... I have a few questions... (vortexblue)*

Dudes. Well, with the use of 2 stock rear mounts and a super-duty fabricated front mount, the VR6 has a new home. It looks like it belongs in there. The axles are lined-up, looks like the big part is done. Cable Shifter, exhaust, radiator and condenser still have to be fitted. But things are progressing nicely. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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