# This is why your A1 chassis needs upper and lower stress bars



## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

The A1 chassis was not designed to last forever. When you add tires with grip and drive aggressively the chassis will fail. 

_Does your STREET A1 Scirocco need stress bars?_ *YES. *

*What to do if you find cracks:*
If your car is a project car you may want to save it. I know that Mike Potter's car had some cracks and that same car is a race car today (welded up with a full roll cage). Mike's car was used for Auto-x and track use for years with just some local welding and a 4 point bar (before the cage). I had a MK1 (1981) with cracks and tower separation that I fixed. That car is still OK and driven very hard. When you find cracks (look often) deal with them early. Run stress bars!! Most cracks can be repaired as long as your car is not rusty. Just because you have cracks does not make your car junk, they can be fixed in many cases. 

*What are stress bars?* What kind?

Upper stressbars are essential for preventing chassis flex and upper strut tower fatigue. 









A lower 2 point stressbar pevents the frame from flexing independently.









A K-bar is a Subframe/ lower stressbar that provides triangulation.

























A Subframe or lower 4 point stressbar provides triangulation for all four of the pickup points on the lower front A-arm attachments. 










*This is why your A1 chassis needs upper and lower stress bars.* (Timbo's MK2 shown below)

This car had no lower stressbar. Even with realistic wheels and tires the chassis cracked apart. Perhaps the HD motor mounts accelerated the failure but I have seen several Sciroccos with similar damage. 
































































*TIM's VIDEO of the chassis cracks as the steering is moved:*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4S_1FSCXnQ&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2i2u0v7On4&feature=player_embedded


The stress bar or strut brace is one suspension part where simpler is better. The one piece style tubular steel front upper stress bar is probably the best design on the market for a racer and street enthusiast. They are simple, strong, and they are also the least expensive. Almost every VW aftermarket business has its own brand of stress bar, some built from tubular steel, and others from aluminum. For the money, upper and lower stress bars are one of the most cost-effective ways to improve the handling of an A1 chassis. The improvements in structural rigidity and steering responsiveness are amazing. Upper and lower stress bars also act to preserve the structural integrity of the chassis, reducing its chances of getting flimsy after many thousands of miles. For maximum handling and chassis strength it is best to have both upper and lower braces. The lower stress bar is more important if you can only add one. 











Pot holes, road construction, uneven driveways driven at speed, and train tracks can tear the front of your car apart. You still need to avoid road hazards even with stress bars. Stress bars will help if you are prone to hitting road hazards. If you find yourself facing a pot hole or rail road track remember to release the brake just before you hit the hazard. The impact to the frame will not be as great. 

STIFF motor mounts with or without stress bars can tear your car apart too. 

STRESS BARS will hep preserve the car's geometry. Most newer VWs have sub frames because they need them. The A1 cars other than the 16V did not come with a sub frame. You can see why the later MK2 Scirocco 16v included the K-bar, it was needed. 

*Some links to help you find some bars:*

This bar is for MK2s only. Make sure that your upper bar works with your intake.
http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18040

http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030

https://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18035

http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18045

*Some chat about 4 point sub frames: *
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3394526

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:










*4 upper stress bar shootout*

Neuspeed v.s. Autotech v.s. Sway-A-Way v.s. Neuspeed's early bar.
What bar works the best? I took 4 different upper stress bars and looked them up and down. 

*BAR 1*
The Neuspeed early bar is now very much discontinued and I don't think you will find this bar at your local parts store unless the store has some dusty old VW motorsport merchandise. How does this bar stack up to the other three? The old Neuspeed bar is welded in several locations and has sheet metal spanning the "Y" sections. The ends are flattened with drilled holes. This bar looks strong and is constructed from steel. The craftsmanship is a bit primitive. The center section dia is very large. If you like polishing your hood when your hood is on your Scirocco this is not the bar for you. The Neuspeed early bar stands taller than any of the bars I tested at nearly 4.5" at the center. The weight is 3.5 pounds. If you have a MK1 Rabbit you may want to try this bar. I personally would pass on it because I have Sciroccos. 


















*Bar 2*
Sway-A-way.
This bar is a simple bar. It is just two steel tubes welded in the center with crushed ends. As classics go this bar is the real deal. Back in the old days this bar showed up on several cars. Sway-A-Way makes bug bar accessories for off road and they did some water cooled parts too. The Sway-A-Way upper stress bar is very low profile at only 2.8 inches at the highest point. You will never rub your hood on this bar but what about getting the engine under it? The craftsmanship is a bit primitive. The weight is not too impressive at 4.0 lbs. This bar is for 8V cars only.


























*Bar 3*
Autotech aluminum 4 piece adjustable upper stress bar. (8V Scirocco bar shown)
The one I have is an older one with the cast ends. The newer ones have sheet metal ends. This bar is very popular however it is complicated. It is kind of fun to install if you have the time. The adjustable feature is both an advantage and disadvantage. You don't want to change your car's geometry but if you bent the car already this bar may allow you to fit it with less trouble. Assembly time is longer than other bars. The hinge will allow your chassis to flex when over stressed but the flex is in a controlled parallelogram. I have seen this bar break when pushed on from the top. It comes in different configurations for both 16V and 8V (see 2nd picture below). It is attractive if polished. It is not the shortest of the 4 bars at 3.2" but because the bar is located on center it can get away with being slightly taller than the red Neuspeed bar. You may think this bar would be light and it is at 3.0 lbs. Sticker price is $119.95 if you can find it.

















Autotech 8V mk1 aluminum bar shown in the front and Autotech 8V mk2 aluminum bar shown in the back (picture below).









*Bar 4*
The Neuspeed A1 Golf / MK2 Scirocco Stress bar. This bar is no longer in production so finding NOS could be a challenge. Many of the bars like this one were black. The construction is good. This bar looks simple and strait forward because it is. It has welded base tabs that are drilled. The 3.0 lb weight is the same as the Autotech bar and the Neuspeed bar is constructed from steel. The height is lower than the Autotech bar at 2.9" in the center section. This bar can be reversed and used on a MK2 Scirocco 16V. I notice that this bar has some rub marks on it. I have this same bar as this red bar (in black) on my MK2 Scirocco 16V and it fits great. 


















This RED bar has different style bends on the ends than my MK1 bar. 
I have a black Neuspeed upper stress bar on my 1980 MK1 and it fits fine but the hood clearance is very close. If your car is bent you may have issues with a MK1 Scirocco. Make sure that you get the flatter bar for your MK1 Scirocco if you get a used or NOS bar. 










This is the comparison chart:
(All dimensions are in decimal inches. You can average the numbers to accommodate measurement inaccuracies)


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## Granitethewolf (Aug 7, 2009)

Ive always had the thought of installing these because they are relatively cheap...
So with all this said, are these stress bars difficult to install? From the looks they just bolt up, seems like the "hard" part would be grunting out the old bolts.
http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030

PartsforVW's brings this up when I put Scirocco II in the search list. Will it fit my '82?


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## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*pounded to dust!*

In addition to Dooogles great info...I submit to you;

Springs above 350 ft/lbs will contribute to welds popping, seam splitting, shock towers "exiting the vehicle" etc.
Not running full bump stops will kill the car on almost the first hit.
Super low aspect ratio tires...
Cutting the roof open and adding a rag-top.....death.
Full urethane bushings....enormous forces thru the monocoque.
Stupid reverse mounted (frame horn) anti roll bars....(idiot 'engineer')

I've probably re-welded together 12 MK1's after all the *"owner induced deaths".*


:wave::beer::facepalm:


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## red16vman (Mar 16, 2006)

Granitethewolf said:


> Ive always had the thought of installing these because they are relatively cheap...
> So with all this said, are these stress bars difficult to install? From the looks they just bolt up, seems like the "hard" part would be grunting out the old bolts.
> http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030
> 
> PartsforVW's brings this up when I put Scirocco II in the search list. Will it fit my '82?


Quite easy. I lucked out with 3 of these stress bars from an old parts car I had. Upper and lower on the front and another one for the rear. The upper is a neuspeed unit while the lower is a big 4 point from eurosport and the rear strut bar is another eurosport.

Installation is very simple although I found on my car the upper strut bar took some manhandling to get line up with the bolts. You'll notice that even lifting one side of the car will torque the whole car. The car felt noticeably stiffer afterwards.


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## woody16v (Sep 21, 2009)

sciroccohal said:


> Stupid reverse mounted (frame horn) anti roll bars....(idiot 'engineer')



? i don't know what is meaning by this. could you elaborate on this one for me sir?


and 12 cars is alot of welding. im sure the complete lack of rust and/or undercoating/paint/etc made that alot of fun


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## toy_vw (Feb 11, 2006)

dont forget about the front crossmember....

with my build..im taking alot into consideration regarding structural re-engineering..including...welding re-inforcing bars and such in places i deem fit...


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

Okay, I understand that removing the entire roof (as happened with one of mine*) will add stress to the remaining chassis, but how badly does removing sheet metal for a MkI ragtop stress the car since the roof framework (such as it is) is still intact? 
And if you don't believe in these stresses, take a look at Fox body Mustangs, they REALLY twist if not reinfoced. 

* That one has had significant reinforcing metal added to it, and has a heavier than usual upper stress bar. It also will never have more than that 1.8L in it. It's a cruiser, not a racer.


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## woody16v (Sep 21, 2009)

the sheet metal may add quite a bit more rigidity than most people give it credit for. and typically there is a decent amount of support for the sheet panel in the cars that i have owned, mostly lateral bracing (in the sentra at least) it doesnt look like much but from a structural stand point it was deemed at the very least to be adequate by more than a few people before it reached final production. -adequate for the intended purpose for the car- when you start changing parameters you start affecting how well the chassis can handle the stress. 


than your schitt breaks all up.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

One way to kill a car is to turn the steering wheel when the car is not rolling. When Karmann started installing power steering in our Sciroccos the frame started cracking because people were parallel parking without letting the car roll. A car with sticky tires and no stress bar is at a disadvantage. Note how the 16V came with the K-bar standard.


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## jedilynne (Feb 25, 2008)

punchbug said:


> Okay, I understand that removing the entire roof (as happened with one of mine*) will add stress to the remaining chassis, but how badly does removing sheet metal for a MkI ragtop stress the car since the roof framework (such as it is) is still intact?


This is a good question. From my perspective, having both upper and lower. However, if you will recall the lower was nearly dual purposed transmission support. We had talked about not putting it back on. Should we?


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## OorsciroccO (Apr 20, 2006)

punchbug said:


> Okay, I understand that removing the entire roof (as happened with one of mine*) will add stress to the remaining chassis, but how badly does removing sheet metal for a MkI ragtop stress the car since the roof framework (such as it is) is still intact?
> And if you don't believe in these stresses, take a look at Fox body Mustangs, they REALLY twist if not reinfoced.
> 
> * That one has had significant reinforcing metal added to it, and has a heavier than usual upper stress bar. It also will never have more than that 1.8L in it. It's a cruiser, not a racer.


When a car is looked at in section, the roof is like the upper part of a tube. Tubes are inherently stiff torsionally, which is why driveshafts are not open section. Take away the roof, you now have a channel, which is an open section. Open sections are inherently flexible (not stiff) in torsion. Each section has its advantages and disadvantages.

At the front, in stock form, the struts are open section. An upper brace and lower brace closes this section, making it much more stiff torsionally. This is especially important since this is where most of the torsional chassis loading occurs, either through turning the wheels when not moving, or winning the race through the last turn.

The rear is not affected as much, but still benefits greatly from a strut brace and swaybar.

Of course, if these items were all present at the dealership at time of purchase, the majority would turn away from the "too responsive" ride. Plus, the bean counters needed their feel good time too.

Us remaining minority tend to appreciate this responsiveness, and, by default, so do our cars.

As for the sheet metal removal for a ragtop affecting the car, I have heard of instances where the front corners of these cars have endured fatigue cracking. This would be due to stress concentration where flexing occurs. Removing that significant a portion of the upper shear plane will lead to significantly less torsional stiffness and resultant flexing near the A pillars. A non issue for Sunday drivers, but definitely a problem weekend x cross warriors.


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

jedilynne said:


> This is a good question. From my perspective, having both upper and lower. However, if you will recall the lower was nearly dual purposed transmission support. We had talked about not putting it back on. Should we?


To not put THAT lower one back on, yes, leave it off. But IIRC in the next breath the suggestion was made to source a proper K bar. Cheap insurance, and an easy install. No clue what the bar was that was on yours, but the fact that the transaxle was resting on it with the motor not running makes me wonder how much banging around was going on when the motor's alive and squirming. (for those who have not seen it, hers was a straight piece of tubing with the ends pounded flat, looked more like a curtain rod, very light duty at best.) The triangulated K bar seems a much better tool for the job in my estimation, and they are not expensive/difficult to obtain. And the transaxle does not need support from that bar, nor should it get any. That's what the motor mounts are for.

But I should get off my butt and engineer something for the top of my MkI's strut towers. The old bar won't clear the engine now.

As for the front crossmember support, I have one on my silver car but not on the others. Is front crossmember cracking a mkII only thing? I seem to recall hearing that the 16V's front crossmember has additional holes cut in it which, combined with the more powerful motor, leads to the cracking issue. I've never actually compared front crossmembers on various types to verify if there are more perforations in one or another type. Not intending to thread jack, but the topic is about adding metal to reinforce weanesses....


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## A1peopleS2wagons (Dec 2, 2010)

> Cutting the roof open and adding a rag-top.....death.


Thank you where is that purple convertable?


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

A1peopleS2wagons said:


> Thank you where is that purple convertable?


It is not dead despite its lacking roof. 
It was landlocked behind another car till just a minute or two ago, and I will be tossing a battery in her and moving her out of hibernation. And she is the one with the "*" I referred to in the earlier post. Cabbies are no different in this regard, being on an A1 chassis, but they have that big overhead roll bar. Purple has very high doorsills, due to the addition of square tubular steel. There is other metal crossbracing behind the rear seat; it no longer flops down. I weighed her, and she weighs in at exactly what you'd expect for a 16V, maybe a bit on the heavy side (2350 lbs IIRC?). So the weight of her missing roof has been added back in as reinforcements. The conversion is based on the Bieber kit, which is TUV approved, and Lowell upgraded the reinforcements from that.


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## A1peopleS2wagons (Dec 2, 2010)

> being on an A1 chassis, but they have that big overhead roll bar. Purple has very high doorsills, due to the addition of square tubular steel. There is other metal crossbracing behind the rear seat; it no longer flops down.


Why did you not say so along time ago?
I can under stand now.


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

A1peopleS2wagons said:


> Why did you not say so along time ago?
> I can under stand now.


The particulars of that build are not important to the discussion at hand really. I bought a modified car, so if it has special concerns, I certainly should anticipate them. 

This recent demise of the Timobile is of much greater concern, since, as Doug pointed out so well, it was not ever subjected to stresses beyond what it was engineered for. The other group of Sciroccos I fear for are the ones that have owners needing to post huge Hp numbers, upwards of 200Hp. But again, that is their own choosing and they should anticipate issues and build for that beforehand. 

So, chassis cracks. Front crossmemembers, and now this area where Timbo's failed in such an epic way. Any other places we should look? There was one car recently posted with a concern at the rear side of where the front strut tower attaches. Was that just a seam sealer failure or was it a legit metal failure below? Let's see pics of these metal failures so we can all prevent it in our cars. And let's stick to frames whee corrosion is not the primary causative agent. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but with a similar fragrance. 

Thanks to Doug for starting this thread, it is very useful.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

punchbug said:


> Let's see pics of these metal failures so we can all prevent it in our cars. And let's stick to frames whee corrosion is not the primary causative agent. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but with a similar fragrance.
> 
> Thanks to Doug for starting this thread, it is very useful.


This is a very extreme picture of the shock tower separating from the inner fender. Cars that have been in minor front end accidents develop shock tower separation, sometimes years later. If you see cracks or gaps weld the tower back ASAP. Then install stress bars. 










*Some chat about bars*
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5262787-Forward-Upper-strut-bar-mounting-question


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## richhuff (Oct 26, 2007)

OK, who has a lower K-bar they want to sell? My car has a 92 GTI 1.8 motor, now I'm afraid.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

Granitethewolf said:


> Ive always had the thought of installing these because they are relatively cheap...
> So with all this said, are these stress bars difficult to install? From the looks they just bolt up, seems like the "hard" part would be grunting out the old bolts.
> http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030
> 
> PartsforVW's brings this up when I put Scirocco II in the search list. Will it fit my '82?












http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030

This bar is very easy to install. Jack up the car from the proper locations. Set jack stands under the frame horns. Remove the front A-arm bolts on both sides. Run the bolts through the lower stress bar. The assembly is the reverse of disassemble. 

Lower stress bars that have spherical bearings like the more expensive Neuspeed bar require longer bolts.
http://www.neuspeed.com/67/0/0/1563/451001-neuspeed-front-lower-tie-bar.html


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## Rocco_julie (Jul 12, 2006)

I have a MKI with a 16v is there an upper stress bar available?
I have a K bar and HD stress bar under neath.....


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## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

Ok, my question, is a lower K bar and upper strut bar enough? Or should I add another lower stress bar?


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## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*Backward sway bar mount.*



woody16v said:


> ? i don't know what is meaning by this. could you elaborate on this one for me sir?
> 
> 
> and 12 cars is alot of welding. im sure the complete lack of rust and/or undercoating/paint/etc made that alot of fun


There is a manufacturer (whos name escapes me) who used to make a sway bar for the front that mounted to the front frame horns with the original bumper bolts....then going backwards toward the control arms. This positively rips the car to shreds. The frame horns are designed to take compression forces....not twisting forces.

Yes, the most difficult thing about welding up these splits and cracks is removing yards of undercoating and polishing the seams before spot, then stitch and eventually seam welding...dirty, lousy, stinky job!
I used to own a MK1 repair shop in VT.....rusted sciroccos, I've seen a lifetime amount.:thumbdown:


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

sciroccohal said:


> There is a manufacturer (whos name escapes me) who used to make a sway bar for the front that mounted to the front frame horns with the original bumper bolts....then going backwards toward the control arms. This positively rips the car to shreds. The frame horns are designed to take compression forces....not twisting forces.
> 
> Yes, the most difficult thing about welding up these splits and cracks is removing yards of undercoating and polishing the seams before spot, then stitch and eventually seam welding...dirty, lousy, stinky job!
> I used to own a MK1 repair shop in VT.....rusted sciroccos, I've seen a lifetime amount.:thumbdown:


I had an MK1 with the sway bar in the front a long time ago. The bar was funky.


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## first_rocc (Apr 9, 2005)

> There is a manufacturer (whos name escapes me) who used to make a sway bar for the front that mounted to the front frame horns with the original bumper bolts....then going backwards toward the control arms. This positively rips the car to shreds. The frame horns are designed to take compression forces....not twisting forces.


GMP? I've used one of that style since 1986 with no issues, but I'm no racer. I always thought that big hunk of angle iron the bar hangs on that is bolted between the bumper mounts and around the front motor mount cup was a good thing, considering the lower radiator support issues.


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## theenico (Nov 12, 2003)

H&H Specialties and Pulsar Racing used to make some funky front sway bar setups similar to what you guys are describing.


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## 1983rabbitgti (Apr 4, 2004)

ok now im paranoid. looks like ill be getting lower cross member, rear stressy, upper stressy, and BFI has this cool number that will help a little bit...its kinda pricy tho. still cheaper than welding...

http://yhst-1918367471896.stores.yahoo.net/mk1crrebar.html


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

I've got one of the first-generation crossmember bars like the one posted above. Also have lower K-bar and I will be adding a strut bar. Also going to go ahead and seam-weld the whole car. "While I'm in there....."  There actually is some sheet metal work that needs done, so if I'm gonna be grinding and welding, I'll be damn sure to weld everything I can get to.

Though I do plan on 3.5x the amount of torque the car was designed for......  every little bit helps.

Brendan


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## cholland_ (Apr 12, 2006)

1983rabbitgti said:


> ok now im paranoid. looks like ill be getting lower cross member, rear stressy, upper stressy, and BFI has this cool number that will help a little bit...its kinda pricy tho. still cheaper than welding...
> 
> http://yhst-1918367471896.stores.yahoo.net/mk1crrebar.html


Does anybody know if these fit both mk1 and mk2 Scirocco's? I seem to recall there being some difference in the mk2's bumper attachments that made these not fit them correctly?


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## Neptuno (Jul 16, 2003)

I Have another question, This one about K-Bars..... are the holes for the k-bar rear attaching points tap in already or do these need to be drilled (I hope not) also.

I know to use the a-arm bolts for the front, but is the appropiate hardware for the rear of the K-bars?

Thanks,
el t


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

cholland_ said:


> Does anybody know if these fit both mk1 and mk2 Scirocco's? I seem to recall there being some difference in the mk2's bumper attachments that made these not fit them correctly?


From what I remember when Rob was originally building these, there are spacers required for the Mk1, the Mk2 just bolts in. I could be wrong. I got spacers for mine and they bolted right in no problems.



Neptuno said:


> I Have another question, This one about K-Bars..... are the holes for the k-bar rear attaching points tap in already or do these need to be drilled (I hope not) also.


They attach at the rear control arm mounting plate/swaybar mount plate thingy. I think there is a threaded stud that it attaches to IIRC.

Brendan


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

cholland_, found a pic of the brace pre-install:










You can see the spacers there.

Installed:










Brendan


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## petebee (Jul 8, 2006)

Neptuno said:


> I Have another question, This one about K-Bars..... are the holes for the k-bar rear attaching points tap in already or do these need to be drilled (I hope not) also.
> 
> I know to use the a-arm bolts for the front, but is the appropiate hardware for the rear of the K-bars?
> 
> ...


I put a k-bar on my Mk1 and there is not enough metal where the rear bar attaches - I could drill a hole on one side, but the other side the hole in the bar aligns with the edge of available unibody metal (it is kinda like a metal webbing that attaches to the frame horn and the unibody. I just attached the fronts and left the rears on top of the metal where it would bolt in.


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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Neptuno said:


> I Have another question, This one about K-Bars..... are the holes for the k-bar rear attaching points tap in already or do these need to be drilled (I hope not) also.
> 
> I know to use the a-arm bolts for the front, but is the appropiate hardware for the rear of the K-bars?
> 
> ...


If your frame did not come wit stock with the K-Bar, rear anchor points need to be drilled in the frame horns. Nothing to be scared of: Safety glasses and a a good 5/16" drill bit , coupled with two M8 screws & nuts and washers and its done!

P4C:


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

Neptuno said:


> I Have another question, This one about K-Bars..... are the holes for the k-bar rear attaching points tap in already or do these need to be drilled (I hope not) also.
> 
> I know to use the a-arm bolts for the front, but is the appropiate hardware for the rear of the K-bars?
> 
> ...


On my MkI I had to drill a few holes, but it is not hard to do at all. 16Vs of course already have the holes because they came with K bars, not sure about 8V MkIIs. But it's sure not a tough thing to do at all.


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

punchbug said:


> On my MkI I had to drill a few holes, but it is not hard to do at all. 16Vs of course already have the holes because they came with K brs, nt sure about 8V MkIIs. But it's sure not a tough thing to do at all.


8v mk2s (the ones I've had) don't have the holes drilled.


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

Thought I'd mention that where you place jacks and jackstands matters too.


This is bad:










The car's weight is twisting and resting on the webbed area of the frame horn.


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## Optimus234 (Aug 19, 2002)

Where are all the safe places to jack up on and place jack stands??


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## red16vman (Mar 16, 2006)

TheTimob said:


> Thought I'd mention that where you place jacks and jackstands matters too.
> 
> 
> This is bad:
> ...


Well now we all know what made your car rip apart


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

red16vman said:


> Well now we all know what made your car rip apart


I'm sure it was the set of train tracks I fly over all the time that did more damage than the jack!


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## cholland_ (Apr 12, 2006)

TheTimob said:


> Thought I'd mention that where you place jacks and jackstands matters too.


Good point, Timbo. Jacking up your car can place a lot of stress on the frame if you lift from the wrong places.

In the front, I use either the front or rear control arm mounts, then put my jackstands on the opposite mount.

In the rear, I use the rear axle beam for the jack and the jackstands, putting them as close to the outsides as I can. If I'm removing the rear axle or gas tank rolleyes, I've put my jackstands on those little squares that hang down near the extreme back corners with success.

And always use jackstands! :wave:


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## Sirocco (Dec 13, 2000)

sciroccohal said:


> Stupid reverse mounted (frame horn) anti roll bars....(idiot 'engineer')


Can't believe I'm the only one who knows about these.

Suspension Techniques was the manufacturer.
I agree, they were not meant to last for 25 years worth of everyday abuse and driving, but they did a great job of keeping the front end level under track/smooth street conditions. The only design flaw that I saw was if both endlinks broke at the same time the bar would jam itself into the wheels.

Nick Triantos, whom I consider a legend of A1 VW's...although few of the youngters around today have probably heard of him...used them on a winning 1981 Scirocco S back when the Scirocco was nearly a new car. Those that remember New Dimensions old waiting room probably remember looking up on the wall at pictures of it.

I bought said car (Cosmos I) from him and ran it both on the street and a couple years of AutoX'ing. It was a horrible ride on the street but cornered like nothing I had ever felt before or probably ever will, it was like I was in a cartoon. This was complimented with a 28mm rear ST bar, linear rate ST race springs, aluminum steering rack mounts and 185/60/14 Yoko A008RSII's amoung other custom settings.

Amazingly what killed the car after I owned it for almost 10 years in this configuration was the aluminum front engine mount tore out the front core support.  
The rest of the chassis was solid as a rock.

I also know of another Scirocco 1 owner who's owned his car since it was a year old that has run this same setup for decades and his chassis is as solid as a rock as well, I know this because it is currently sitting in my garage.  He drives like a maniac and the power output of his S1 is only bettered by high boost turbo's and 1.8T's. 

I'm not an engineer but I have two cases where this setup has not done any significant or even minor damage to the cars it has been on. Maybe others have negative experiences they wish to share and I would be open to hearing them. :thumbup:


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## Sirocco (Dec 13, 2000)

Doug T said:


> One way to kill a car is to turn the steering wheel when the car is not rolling.


With this I totally agree. If you are running the original 175/70/13 P4's or Continental's it probably isn't as big of a deal but who still does that. The combination of tire sizes we all run now (me personally, 215/45/15 and 195/55/14) and the much stickier street/track compounds today are probably FAR more than the factory chassis engineers ever envisioned being run on the car. 

My personal setup is 16V K bar underneath and Neuspeed forked bar on top. 
I NEVER turn the steering wheel of my Mk1 unless the car is rolling, a rule I've lived by for nearly 20yrs of Mk1 Scirocco ownership. :thumbup: 

And yes I drive a Mk1 S daily and will continue to...even though nearly everyone I know tells me I should hide it away in a garage where now one will see it and where I can't enjoy it.


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## California Special (Dec 15, 2005)

TheTimob said:


> I'm sure it was the set of train tracks I fly over all the time that did more damage than the jack!


Funny you should mention train tracks. Mine cracked when going over a set a train tracks. No kidding:screwy:

Right here.


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## Neptuno (Jul 16, 2003)

punchbug said:


> On my MkI I had to drill a few holes, but it is not hard to do at all. 16Vs of course already have the holes because they came with K bars, not sure about 8V MkIIs. But it's sure not a tough thing to do at all.



I went to the hardware store yesterday and got the right harden M8x20 shouldered bolts, and nuts.

I'll put it together when I finish up the front end work :thumbup:


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Neptuno said:


> I went to the hardware store yesterday and got the right harden M8x20 shouldered bolts, and nuts.
> 
> I'll put it together when I finish up the front end work :thumbup:


Sorry Tony, I thought you were asking about the Eurospec K-frame. :thumbup:

Brendan


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## microdub98 (May 12, 2007)

This is some excellent & handy info to post up :thumbup:. Definitely a must read for those who don't know. I'm not too concerned on my end, I had already planned for these add-ons when the build began :beer:. Using a k-bar, Neuspeed upper front, & a Neuspeed triangulated rear.

Although, I will ask this.....is the upper front & k-bar enough? I dig the BFI crossmember brace, also a Go-Kraut item IIRC aswell, but w/ some of the modifications I've made thus far I don't think it will work out on my car.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

California Special said:


> Funny you should mention train tracks. Mine cracked when going over a set a train tracks. No kidding:screwy:
> 
> Right here.


Pot holes, road construction, uneven driveways driven at speed, and train tracks can tear the front of your car apart. You still need to avoid road hazards even with stress bars. Stress bars will help if you are prone to hitting road hazards. 

STIFF motor mounts with or without stress bars can tear your car apart too. 

STRESS BARS will hep preserve the car's geometry. Most newer VWs have sub frames because they need them. The A1 cars other than the 16V did not come with a sub frame. You can see why the later MK2 Scirocco 16v included the K-bar, it was needed. 

*Some links to help you find some bars:*

This bar is for MK2s only. Make sure that your upper bar works with your intake.
http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18040

http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030

https://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18035

http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18045


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## microdub98 (May 12, 2007)

Holy crap, I didn't know P4VW was up & running again


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## scirocco*joe (Feb 23, 2002)

Does anyone have any links on an upper strut bar that will work for Mk1 Sciroccos?


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## xECKSx58 (Oct 5, 2008)

I have a stock 1.8 8v and a neuspeed upper stress bar (not installed). Ive had the bar for over a year but haven't out it in bc the throttle body is in the way. Is there any way around this?


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## sw05s2k (Aug 31, 2010)

scirocco*joe said:


> Does anyone have any links on an upper strut bar that will work for Mk1 Sciroccos?


I found this lower one, I can't find an upper one though. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140535240449&viewitem=#vi-content


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## microdub98 (May 12, 2007)

sw05s2k said:


> I found this lower one, I can't find an upper one though.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140535240449&viewitem=#vi-content


That's "basically" a k-bar :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Apr 2, 1999)

scirocco*joe said:


> Does anyone have any links on an upper strut bar that will work for Mk1 Sciroccos?


Joseph unless I am completely off-base any of the Neuspeed or Eurosport Mk1 bars will work with your 8v Mk1. It gets trickier when you delve into other engines with other types of intake manifolds like 16v's in particular.


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## cholland_ (Apr 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Joseph unless I am completely off-base any of the Neuspeed or Eurosport Mk1 bars will work with your 8v Mk1. It gets trickier when you delve into other engines with other types of intake manifolds like 16v's in particular.


Wonder if having an ABA without an over-the-top intake manifold changes this statement...


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## [email protected] (Apr 2, 1999)

cholland_ said:


> Wonder if having an ABA without an over-the-top intake manifold changes this statement...


It can. My previous Scirocco II with the ABA/JH combo had an Audi 5000 intake manifold with the fifth runner chopped off and an A2 GTi throttle body. In that case not only did you have to drill the rain tray to make it fit and adjust the idle but the Neuspeed brace had to be reversed so that the support bar that ran parallel to the tray had to be positioned so that the bar was away from the firewall and not near to it... if you know what I mean.


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## sw05s2k (Aug 31, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Joseph unless I am completely off-base any of the Neuspeed or Eurosport Mk1 bars will work with your 8v Mk1. It gets trickier when you delve into other engines with other types of intake manifolds like 16v's in particular.


I'm confused. The Eurosport site says theirs won't work on Mk1's Scirocco's ??


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## scirocco*joe (Feb 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Joseph unless I am completely off-base any of the Neuspeed or Eurosport Mk1 bars will work with your 8v Mk1. It gets trickier when you delve into other engines with other types of intake manifolds like 16v's in particular.





sw05s2k said:


> I'm confused. The Eurosport site says theirs won't work on Mk1's Scirocco's ??





Parts4vws.com's website said:


> Upper Stress bars help eliminate the roll and twist of the front sheet metal frame. Made from 7/8" and 3/4" diameter steel tubing. Finished in gloss black powercoat. Note: Fit's all A1's except Scirocco 1 (75-81)


Link: http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18040


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## petebee (Jul 8, 2006)

scirocco*joe said:


> Link: http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18040


Joe I bought a used MK1 Neuspeed bar (similar to the Eurosport one in your link) and it would not fit on my MK1 Scirocco. It was from an MK1 Jetta and when installed the hood would not close at all.

I found an old school bar on eBay that I bought from Andrew (531sb2 here on Vortex). He might have another one...


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## [email protected] (Apr 2, 1999)

sw05s2k said:


> I'm confused. The Eurosport site says theirs won't work on Mk1's Scirocco's ??





petebee said:


> Joe I bought a used MK1 Neuspeed bar (similar to the Eurosport one in your link) and it would not fit on my MK1 Scirocco. It was from an MK1 Jetta and when installed the hood would not close at all.
> 
> I found an old school bar on eBay that I bought from Andrew (531sb2 here on Vortex). He might have another one...


_Okay okay! _ I just texted both Mike Potter and Raffi (the owner of Eurosport and the guy who designed that bar in the 80's) and both of them said that hood clearance was an issue with the Eurosport bar... so I stand corrected. 

Autotech lists one but I understand that it is currently discontinued. I wonder if there is a small market for these things nowadays?


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## scirocco*joe (Feb 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> _Okay okay! _ I just texted both Mike Potter and Raffi (the owner of Eurosport and the guy who designed that bar in the 80's) and both of them said that hood clearance was an issue with the Eurosport bar... so I stand corrected.
> 
> Autotech lists one but I understand that it is currently discontinued. I wonder if there is a small market for these things nowadays?


I'd hit it. Errrr, I mean buy one. :laugh:


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

*For the MK1 folks.... If you can find a MK1 Scirocco Neuspeed bar grab it. 

If not, upper stress bars are not that difficult to make.* 

All you need is a bent bar and some ends that fit the shock tower. This one (on a 76 MK1 Scirocco) uses some cut aluminum sheet/ plate, billet and some bolts. Note the flashy sticker .
The sticker and the bar assembly is 100% home made.










I have 2 different styles of upper stress bars on my 2 different MK1 Sciroccos.










1) On my 76 a friend and I made a bar out of 2 different bars that I had sitting in my pile of parts. Both of my bars did not fit my MK1 because I changed my intake. I used the Autotech ends (had them sitting in the garage for about 15 years) and made the center part of the bar by cutting up a 2nd bar and welding on the ends. (center part is home made other than the bent bar) I used the bolts that came with the Autotech ends. It took about 4 hours to come up with the idea and fit it to the car. Then the paint took a day to dry. 










2) On my 80 I have a Neuspeed 8V bar. I have had this bar for a very long time. My hood closes just fine with the bar under it. I don't think you can get the Neuspeed bar new. I think Mike sold the last ones a few years back.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> _Okay okay! _ Autotech lists one but I understand that it is currently discontinued. I wonder if there is a small market for these things nowadays?


I am not sure that Autotech will have any more A1 stuff after they sell off the stock they have???


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

More upper MK1 and Mk2 bars:



















Autotech: (Out of stock)

































Neuspeed no longer in production:

















































More bars from the parts bin of questionable sources: 


















Drake?


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

scirocco*joe said:


> I'd hit it. Errrr, I mean buy one. :laugh:


Talk to me Joe...I have one that likes green.....


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## Neptuno (Jul 16, 2003)

I bought this upper bar from ToddA1in the rabbit/golf1 parts forum and it seems to fit the s2 pretty well









The reall thing looks so much better than the pic :thumbup: once I finish the front end work:
A-arm, DS axle, strut bushings and the rest I will snap some pics.

el t


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## A1peopleS2wagons (Dec 2, 2010)

I can feel the diference with out the k bar.I reminds me of feels like jelly,definatly not tight.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> _Okay okay! _ I just texted both Mike Potter and Raffi (the owner of Eurosport and the guy who designed that bar in the 80's) and both of them said that hood clearance was an issue with the Eurosport bar... so I stand corrected.


This is an old bar that EuroSport made for the 16V. Many of the bars are out of production so you may want to look on E-Bay too. 

Try: http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18045










This is the TT K-Bar


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## sw05s2k (Aug 31, 2010)

Just ordered one of these from Bahn Brenner Motorsport.

Mk1 Upper Stress Bar

Hope this one works!


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## OorsciroccO (Apr 20, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> _Okay okay! _ I just texted both Mike Potter and Raffi (the owner of Eurosport and the guy who designed that bar in the 80's) and both of them said that hood clearance was an issue with the Eurosport bar... so I stand corrected.
> 
> Autotech lists one but I understand that it is currently discontinued. I wonder if there is a small market for these things nowadays?


Nice call Paul. The aftermarket for performance parts for our cars is pretty much tanked - at least from the bigboyz like Autotech and Neuspeed. Will it someday be picked up again like the air-cooleds? Unless there are 15,000 Mk1 barn finds out there that surface in the next couple of years I doubt it. That means it will be up to very small manufacturers to do minimal inventories....should be interesting. At least the designs are copiable...check patent lawz pleeezz...

That said, said check the classifieds. I have an upper stress bar and K-Bar I do not need. They are on the car, so I know they fit. Autotech upper and adjustable Autotech lower X bar on deck for my Mk1. More $$$ spent years ago, collecting dust...... 

Craig


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

*4 stress bar shootout*










*4 stress bar shootout*

Neuspeed v.s. Autotech v.s. Sway-A-Way v.s. Neuspeed's early bar.
What bar works the best? I took 4 different upper stress bars and looked them up and down. 

*BAR 1*
The Neuspeed early bar is now very much discontinued and I don't think you will find this bar at your local parts store unless the store has some dusty old VW motorsport merchandise. How does this bar stack up to the other three? The old Neuspeed bar is welded in several locations and has sheet metal spanning the "Y" sections. The ends are flattened with drilled holes. This bar looks strong and is constructed from steel. The craftsmanship is a bit primitive. The center section dia is very large. If you like polishing your hood when your hood is on your Scirocco this is not the bar for you. The Neuspeed early bar stands taller than any of the bars I tested at nearly 4.5" at the center. The weight is 3.5 pounds. If you have a MK1 Rabbit you may want to try this bar. I personally would pass on it because I have Sciroccos. 


















*Bar 2*
Sway-A-way.
This bar is a simple bar. It is just two steel tubes welded in the center with crushed ends. As classics go this bar is the real deal. Back in the old days this bar showed up on several cars. Sway-A-Way makes bug bar accessories for off road and they did some water cooled parts too. The Sway-A-Way upper stress bar is very low profile at only 2.8 inches at the highest point. You will never rub your hood on this bar but what about getting the engine under it? The craftsmanship is a bit primitive. The weight is not too impressive at 4.0 lbs. This bar is for 8V cars only.


























*Bar 3*
Autotech aluminum 4 piece adjustable upper stress bar. (8V Scirocco bar shown)
The one I have is an older one with the cast ends. The newer ones have sheet metal ends. This bar is very popular however it is complicated. It is kind of fun to install if you have the time. The adjustable feature is both an advantage and disadvantage. You don't want to change your car's geometry but if you bent the car already this bar may allow you to fit it with less trouble. Assembly time is longer than other bars. The hinge will allow your chassis to flex when over stressed but the flex is in a controlled parallelogram. I have seen this bar break when pushed on from the top. It comes in different configurations for both 16V and 8V (see 2nd picture below). It is attractive if polished. It is not the shortest of the 4 bars at 3.2" but because the bar is located on center it can get away with being slightly taller than the red Neuspeed bar. You may think this bar would be light and it is at 3.0 lbs. Sticker price is $119.95 if you can find it.

















Autotech 8V mk1 aluminum bar shown in the front and Autotech 8V mk2 aluminum bar shown in the back (picture below).









*Bar 4*
The Neuspeed A1 Golf / MK2 Scirocco Stress bar. This bar is no longer in production so finding NOS could be a challenge. Many of the bars like this one were black. The construction is good. This bar looks simple and strait forward because it is. It has welded base tabs that are drilled. The 3.0 lb weight is the same as the Autotech bar and the Neuspeed bar is constructed from steel. The height is lower than the Autotech bar at 2.9" in the center section. This bar can be reversed and used on a MK2 Scirocco 16V. I notice that this bar has some rub marks on it. I have this same bar as this red bar (in black) on my MK2 Scirocco 16V and it fits great. 


















This RED bar has different style bends on the ends than my MK1 bar. 
I have a black Neuspeed upper stress bar on my 1980 MK1 and it fits fine but the hood clearance is very close. If your car is bent you may have issues with a MK1 Scirocco. Make sure that you get the flatter bar for your MK1 Scirocco if you get a used or NOS bar. 









This is the comparison chart:
(All dimensions are in decimal inches. You can average the numbers to accommodate measurement inaccuracies)


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## first_rocc (Apr 9, 2005)

Doug T said:


> Drake?


Yes. Originally painted black. Very tight clearances where the hood support braces cross the front member.


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## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

Awesome comparison, Doug!

I had never seen one of those original Neuspeed bars (not very attractive, are they?)

I, too, have an extra mk1 Neuspeed bar but won't decide whether I'll use that or the Autotech unit until I get the turbo motor in there and see how fitment issues present themselves...


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks for that Doug!

I think I will end up just building my own stress bar, since I'll have a non-standard engine configuration. I have always heard, that having piviot points on each end of the bar where it attaches to the strut tower is a bad thing, is that true?

Brendan


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## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

This is the correct bar for the MK1 Scirocco:



Doug T said:


> *Bar 3*
> Autotech aluminum 4 piece adjustable upper stress bar
> The one I have is an older one with the cast ends.


Notice the fact that the bar is staighter than most Autotech bars. This one won't rub/hit your hood because it sits lower. Autotech doesn't realize this and will/would have try/tried to sell you the newer one. I have one of the newer ones, but I think it's best to put it on a MK2. I might be talked into selling it.

I have a Neuspeed upper bar for my Callaway that needs a repaint and a 16V K bar that's powder coated and ready to intall.


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## kioton32 (Apr 15, 2011)

TheTimob said:


> 8v mk2s (the ones I've had) don't have the holes drilled.


i dont know if someone installed them before I got my 85 8v but I have the front and rear strut tower bars installed and the lower cross bars front and rear installed. I havent had any problems with it being to stiff at all, in fact she handles like she is on rails.


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## petebee (Jul 8, 2006)

Doug thanks for ID'ing my stress bar...it is the Sway-a-Way. Fits well and only rubs a tiny bit on one side. For $40 it was a good deal.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

petebee said:


> Doug thanks for ID'ing my stress bar...it is the Sway-a-Way. Fits well and only rubs a tiny bit on one side. For $40 it was a good deal.


Do you have any pictures to post of it installed?


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## Rays-Rocco (Aug 10, 2002)

Rocco_julie said:


> I have a MKI with a 16v is there an upper stress bar available?
> I have a K bar and HD stress bar under neath.....


Julie, there was a guy on here that had some made up. I bought two of them for my Mk1 16v's and they fit like a glove. 

The only minor problem is that you have to remove the bar to add brake fluid.


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## Neptuno (Jul 16, 2003)

So I ulled out the K-bar that I got to clean it up, and after all my questions about the proper hardwear and drilling holes for it and so forth...... Once I get the k-bar out of the bag, guess what i see?

The original appropiate nuts and bolts for the rear mounting spots :facepalm::laugh:

Thanks to Chris B for sending the nuts to go with the bar..hehe

I degreasses the heck out of the bar and re-sprayed it black :beer::thumbup:


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

I added some more pictures to the first post. You can see the difference between the MK2 Scirocco Neuspeed upper stress bar and the MK1 Scirocco Neuspeed upper stress bar.


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

Here is a lower stress bar I have on my '81 Scirocco. I don't know what bar it is.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

WOW. got any more pictures of that H&H lower stress bar / sub frame and sway bar? 

I have not seen one of them for a long time. 

Do I spy some old Old Koni struts and a 4-1 header? Classic! 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...o-amp-bolt-on-rear-torion-sway-bar&p=71289465


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## jpawl (Apr 12, 2000)

I'd like to hear more about the H&H front sway bar as it does not sound too popular from an engineering stand point. I am using this on two of my cars to allow for down pipe clearance. 

Picture reference below (red and yellow). Not mine but changed hands a few weeks ago. 










And another one:









Thanks,

Jim


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

I found this on EBay.

It is a custom MK1 16V upper stress bar. I think it was made in Santa Barbra.










This link will probably go bad by the time you see it but give it a try:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Scirocco-Mk1-stressbar-16v-conversion-/250801711563


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## petebee (Jul 8, 2006)

Here's the Sway-A-Way in my MK1 Doug:


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## Two-Point-Oh16V (Jun 8, 2001)

I worked with a metal fab shop many years ago to make a custom upper bar for my MK1 with a 16V conversion. It was surprisingly easy. Alos, many years ago, I gave my bar to Mike Potter. He took a bunch of measurements and said that one day he would produce a batch of them. He never did. Here are a couple of photos of it installed....


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

sciroccojim said:


> This is the correct bar for the MK1 Scirocco:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct!! The aluminum bar in the back is one that I had in storage and the aluminum bar in the front is an older bar (about 20 years old). The bends are not the same.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

petebee said:


> Here's the Sway-A-Way in my MK1 Doug:


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Thanks!!


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## natetheman77 (Oct 25, 2009)

Dang, alot of good info here :thumbup: I have front lower and upper bars, and a rear to install still. 

But after seeing the damage to that chassis, I am paranoid and going to have to inspect my car now. At one point it was in a front end accident 

Thanks for the info!


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

I installed both the upper and lower 4pt stressbars today, and got an alignment afterwards. The new car is SOLID!!


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

TheTimob said:


> I installed both the upper and lower 4pt stressbars today, and got an alignment afterwards. The new car is SOLID!!


That is the best news I have seen all day!


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## cholland_ (Apr 12, 2006)

I'm starting to feel like this just ain't gonna cut it


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

Is there any discernible difference between the K-Bar and the Eurosprt 4 point? I've always considered changing out the stock K bar because it seems the the 4 point would give more structural rigidity, but its there really a difference or should I spend my $160 on more important things?


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

Here's a better picture of mine.











I just think that the rear mounting points are a bit better than the control arm horn webbing attachment points on the k-bar. My white car's chassis cracked at a point aft of the point where those attach.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

The 4 point is better however it sticks below the exhaust and is not so great if your car is lowered. I personally don't lower my cars too much. The K bar is good for most people. I have a K bar on my 16V. I have not cracked any of my cars with just a 2 point bar and I push my cars harder than most folks. I have a 2 point lower stress bar on each of my MK1s. I am not allowed to run a triangulated bar on my MK1s because they are both SCCA class built cars and the rules don't allow 4 point or triangulated bars. I believe constraining the front of the horns prevents the majority of the flex. I would rather have the 4 point bar because I need all I can get for my driving style but.....


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## crazyBUG (Feb 4, 2010)

Is there such a thing as a lower bar that is too stiff?

I'm thinking about welding up a bar out of steel angle iron...


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

crazyBUG said:


> Is there such a thing as a lower bar that is too stiff?


No


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## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*Want one?????*



Sirocco said:


> Can't believe I'm the only one who knows about these.
> 
> Suspension Techniques was the manufacturer.
> I agree, they were not meant to last for 25 years worth of everyday abuse and driving, but they did a great job of keeping the front end level under track/smooth street conditions. The only design flaw that I saw was if both endlinks broke at the same time the bar would jam itself into the wheels.
> ...



*
I've got the reverse sway bar indicated....for sale make offer.*


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

Some K bar pictures. 
This is the TT version.


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## onurB (Nov 4, 2010)

Reading that thread scared the s**t out of me so I went to the local auto part, bought a pack of motivation and installed the k-bar I had for more than a year 

And fortunately everything fits in its place, so I presume the frame was not damaged.

Great improvement, for a 1/2 hour of work. :thumbup:
Next will surely be the front and rear upper ones.


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## mobiuslogic (Aug 27, 2003)

Could we maybe get some dimensions for the 16V strut tower bars? I'd like to make one but want to be sure it'll clear the intake and not bang into the hood of course. What's the highest I can go?

EDIT: Obviously I'm trying to stay as high as possible without hitting the hood. That custom bar a few posts up looks great if we could get some measurements of it. Same for the lower stress bars if anyone has one uninstalled and would like to get out a measuring tape.


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## mobiuslogic (Aug 27, 2003)

Also, how does the rear strut tower bar attach to the towers? I've seen what look to be nothing more than U-bolts around the towers. Pic request?


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## mr lee (Jan 31, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Great write up T!! Autotech upper 16v, lower kbar, front crossmember bar, poly bushings, and #350 springs keep my scirocco tighter than a ...... 

little bit teeth chattering at times, but she loves the turns.


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## Angrygilmore (Sep 28, 2008)

Im soo going to need that lower x bar one because im turning the boost up for sng


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## CasuallyWreckless (Aug 27, 2007)

okay well im currently building a mk1 vr6  but my ? is with a lower x bar n and upper bar and a brace across the front what are my chances cause i wanna enjoy a scirocco2 vr for years to come:thumbup: andddd would i be okay goin vr6 spring rate up front for coilovers? before i even order them...opcorn:


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## mr lee (Jan 31, 2005)

*FV-QR*

you're probably okay if you do all 3 (the most important one being the front) and some upgraded motor mount bushings. I'd also look at a poly kit for the suspension. a Vr6 only weights 44lbs more than a 2.0 16v, and there are boosted roccos with vr6 type HP numbers that handle the stress of the torque just fine.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

sweetrocco420 said:


> okay well im currently building a mk1 vr6  but my ? is with a lower x bar n and upper bar and a brace across the front what are my chances cause i wanna enjoy a scirocco2 vr for years to come:thumbup: andddd would i be okay goin vr6 spring rate up front for coilovers? before i even order them...opcorn:


I would not put a VR in an A1. That is just me.

Now if I did I would put the A2 / A3 / B3 / Corrado subfraim in the chassis.


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

Doug T said:


> I would not put a VR in an A1. That is just me.
> 
> Now if I did I would put the A2 / A3 / B3 / Corrado subfraim in the chassis.


Not the right chassis, but this always makes me laugh.











The A2, and all other VW chassis cars have a subframe stock. Not only does this subframe make the car stronger, it makes the car far easier to assemble on an assembley line. Just drop the body onto the engine/subframe/suspension.


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## Doug T (Dec 20, 2003)

TheTimob said:


> Not the right chassis, but this always makes me laugh.
> 
> 
> The A2, and all other VW chassis cars have a subframe stock. Not only does this subframe make the car stronger, it makes the car far easier to assemble on an assembley line. Just drop the body onto the engine/subframe/suspension.


You can put the A2 sub frame in the A1 but you have to do lots of work.


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## mobiuslogic (Aug 27, 2003)

I know this is going to sound terribly ignant, but I was under the car today (16V) and noticed the K-bar. I previously thought that the K-bar attached the rear lower control arm points to the body, but of course I noticed it attached between the front and rear control arm attachment points.

So that said:
1) Doesn't the K-bar just do the same as a lower X-brace?
2) If so, is/what's the point of a 16V getting a lower 2-point stress bar or even an X-brace?
3) Other than strut tower braces, what could/should be done to firm up the chassis?

Thanks!


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

1) Pretty much, yes.
2) An X-brace on a 16v: pointless. You'd need to remove the factory K-bar. A 2-point bar _might_ add a _little _more stiffness - maybe. 
3) Past a tower brace (which is A Very Good Idea).... structural foam. I read a thread on this here a while ago (sorry, didn't save a link; I *think* it was in the 'rocco folder.) So, it's been done. But, it's a rather extreme measure. 

Bottom line:
Just get tower braces. Minimally, get the front. That one helps a lot.


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## mobiuslogic (Aug 27, 2003)

Awesome. Thanks for the clarification cuppie!


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## freedo84gti (Sep 26, 2010)

awesome info, marking for later


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## MickR (Jan 27, 2011)

Nice old thread - didn't notice this the first time around.



sw05s2k said:


> Just ordered one of these from Bahn Brenner Motorsport.
> 
> Mk1 Upper Stress Bar
> 
> Hope this one works!


Did this work out for you? Anybody else try this one yet? It's listed as Autotech Item Number:
10430006K

I had an Autotech upper bar on my MKII and it was a nice piece.


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## AutoX Matt (Sep 26, 2011)

*MkI Crossmember Reinforcement Bar will not fit 16v Scirocco*



Lord_Verminaard said:


> From what I remember when Rob was originally building these, there are spacers required for the Mk1, the Mk2 just bolts in. I could be wrong. I got spacers for mine and they bolted right in no problems.


I e-mailed Black Forest and this was their reply:
"The MkI Crossmemeber Reinforcement Bar will not fir your 16v Scirocco. The bumper bolts will not line up and therefore will not fit. Extensive modification would be required in order to fit.

Pete
BFI"

Oh well. Guess that's money toward my Rear Beam Toe Stabilizer kit or Golf R.


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## veetarded (Jul 28, 2004)

Cross member brace will fit no problem, but this thread is about upper and lower stress (anti-roll) bars. Read more carefully.


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## MickR (Jan 27, 2011)

^^^ 

Upper and lower stress bars are not the same as anti-roll bars.

Well if anybody with an 8v MK1 Scirocco tried that Autotech upper stress bar linked from Bahn Brenner please post about it.


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## veetarded (Jul 28, 2004)

MickR said:


> ^^^
> Upper and lower stress bars are not the same as anti-roll bars.


Yes they are. But they are NOT a cross member brace.


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## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*slinky falling down stairs!*



veetarded said:


> Yes they are. But they are NOT a cross member brace.


Hal's Dictionary.

Stress bar= upper or lower connecting bars that transfer load or torsion from side-to-side. NON-moving (ideally). Hard mounted. This is also mounted sometimes between the rear strut towers, inside the car. Read; monocoque frame stiffeners

Anti-sway bar = a torsion spring located on the suspension itself, that transfers load VERTICALLY.
Anti roll bar= same thing.

Heim joint= a swivel coupler that has a ball joint with a hole in it mounted into an outer ring, the ring is then attached generally to a threaded portion to make it adjustable. Resists loads only in ONE plane...eg in-out.

carry on!:wave:


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## AutoX Matt (Sep 26, 2011)

veetarded said:


> Cross member brace will fit no problem, but this thread is about upper and lower stress (anti-roll) bars. Read more carefully.


Another interpretation is that this thread is about how to keep your chassis from cracking. In that case cross member braces are perfectly on topic.


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## sw05s2k (Aug 31, 2010)

MickR said:


> Nice old thread - didn't notice this the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My apologies, I totally forgot about this. 

No, it did not work, I believe it's like all the other Mk1 bars and will not work with the Mk1 Scirocco. I scratched the hell out of it putting it in so I couldn't return it.

Add it to the "will not fit Mk1 list"


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## vdub12rich (Jul 16, 2013)

TheTimob said:


> Here's a better picture of mine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Has anyone been able to attach one of these to a car with an automatic? 

I'm wondering what modifications it would take. I'm thinking it only hits at the driver front bolt. Can it be gridded down to fit? At worse I’m thinking that the tab can be ground down and the tube can be flattened down and rewelded.


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## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*loads going 'infinite'*



AutoX Matt said:


> Another interpretation is that this thread is about how to keep your chassis from cracking. In that case cross member braces are perfectly on topic.



One thing frequently overlooked in this unibody cracking problem is;
*Load paths going infinite*

If we take the example of a coil spring and it's attendant attachment bushings thru the control arms and upper strut mount and rubber jounce bumper and think of it as a SYSTEM;

If the spring were designed and implemented so the spring can find itself in a 'coil bind' mode...with the coils hard stacked up upon each other....the compression forces are completely un-attenuated. THEN that very large force is transmitted, say, up thru the upper strut mount.
It then goes into the strut tower and into the uni-body 'frame of the car'.
Little by little these spot welds and etc. deflect and bend and deflect and bend....weakening them to the point they crack...once one spot weld breaks...it transmits that load to the next etc.
Next thing you know you have a crack then a separation.

Besides the NVH (noise vibratin harshness) transmitted through these RUBBER bushings, the bushings attenuate the load from passing into the structure.

What I see time and time again; Too firm a bushing/ mount set. I do not like urethane bushings...they are a one trick pony...stop deflection...yet they transmit these forces readily.
Way too stiff a spring set....loads have to go somewhere.....right into the structure.
Way too little travel and compliance.

There are happy mediums to all this. Bottom line; if you were to make all load path reducers solid, you'd pop the frame apart in DAYS.

While all these re-inforcements are worthwhile...they are indeed bandaid to the first order problem...lack of compliance.

So...stay LOOSE!

This does not apply in a race-car situation....you do know that you will have these problems and need to address them peroidically ...it's part of the race-car budget.


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## OorsciroccO (Apr 20, 2006)

A couple of years ago, I was in a race shop and had the opportunity to look underneath a couple of Porsche GT3 Cup race cars.

Not ONE poly bushing anywhere - all rubber. These are the some of the ultimate race cars, engineered to the max, so I presume they know what they are doing.

Twenty years ago, I put all polys on my (first) Mk1, and I took them off and replaced them with rubber a week later.

The ride and the noise was not worth it.

But the lower cross brace, upper strut brace, and front/rear sway bars were worth their weight in gold.

Poly:thumbdown:


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## LubsDaDubs (Apr 6, 2004)

Good information Hal :thumbup:
I currently have a neuspeed upper strut bar, combined with a lower 16v k brace in the front. so far no cracks. in the rear I have the neuspeed triangulated upper strut bar... and again still really tight.
Combined with h&r ultralow coilovers and just added autotech uprated hollow sway bars.


The handling on the car is fantastic.... but I will most likely upgrade the lower k frame to a 4 point x brace soon...... the front rad support bumper mount ones looks nice and sturdy as well so that one is also a consideration.

I do have poly bushing on the front control arms and the rear axle beam mounts, they do stiffen the car noticeably and they are slightly noisy but the whole car is noisy compared to newer cars with sound deadening and padding everywhere.... that's the reason I love the car when I drive it, its so raw and enjoyable.


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## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*try mine*

Bil...despite having only rubber bushings in the car (exception front engine snubber which is poly) and having made my own solid rubber engine mounts...I have removed every shred of sound deadening in the car....some 50 lbs worth. (gotta love the 'bags of sand' in the 80-81'S LOL)

I too enjoy the raw-ness....the Germans call the noise level inside the car....'the sound of speed'!

this is one of the many reasons LANDSHARK weighs in at 1700 lbs WITH A/C!
Yanked 350 lbs out of the car, could then use less lbs/ ft springs etc etc.


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## Thrasher (Jul 18, 2003)

OorsciroccO said:


> A couple of years ago, I was in a race shop and had the opportunity to look underneath a couple of Porsche GT3 Cup race cars.
> 
> Not ONE poly bushing anywhere - all rubber. These are the some of the ultimate race cars, engineered to the max, so I presume they know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


That's all fine and good when you have 85hp at sea level, on a good day. When you double that, and have the ability to rev over 6k those rubber mounts last ~6 months. I'll save the effort and deal with the rattles.


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

neuspeeds



















thinking of getting another K-bar to replace the neuspeed lower

my 78 has the K-bar (no pic)

btw

this usually fixes some annoying problems








yes the factory mount is oval shaped...


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## AutoX-FIB (Nov 20, 2004)

Hi everyone,

Do you feel that a K-bar is any more or less effective than a 2 point unit like the Eurosport Lower Stress bar?

Someone touched on SCCA rule book eligibility too a bit and I want to discuss that further.

If the k-bar was a non factory addition to the car (in my case a MK1 GTI, not a Scirocco) would the 4 point bar or even the k-bar be considered illegal for ST classes? Does it have to do with the number of mounting points if it is?

I'm targeting that class as my future class to compete in with the 84 GTI I am working on right now.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

So basically, adding a lower 4-point, a quality strong upper strut tower bar and then as well as a front cross-member bar between the front frame rails is the utmost way to stiffen the front end and not rely on seam welds to do it.

The rear obviously not talked bout often requires less? Would you still consider a rear tower bar?? Maybe some externally added frame rail connectors like unit-body muscle cars did back in the day?? Clearly, we don't have the side to side torque of the engine wanting to twist sideways.. But I think it'd be worthwhile to add front to back triangulation as well.. no?


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## ziggirocco (Dec 13, 2010)

Seeing how cheap a rear tie bar is $80 or so at Eurosport for example I think it is a good idea, in the long term stiffening the car IMO may keep things tighter longer, at least that is what I tell myself.


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

8v-of-fury said:


> The rear obviously not talked bout often requires less? ? Maybe some externally added frame rail connectors like unit-body muscle cars did back in the day?? Clearly, we don't have the side to side torque of the engine wanting to twist sideways.. But I think it'd be worthwhile to add front to back triangulation as well.. no?



Sure, it can be done.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

Your Car?

More details?? :thumbup:


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## Black92EightValve (Oct 23, 2003)

8v-of-fury said:


> More details?? :thumbup:


This !!! :thumbup:


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## ziggirocco (Dec 13, 2010)

I was lookimg at eurosports website and their upper stress bar is listed for s2 not for s1. Which bars fit the s1 why would an 8v s2 bar not fit a 8v s1?


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

ziggirocco said:


> I was lookimg at eurosports website and their upper stress bar is listed for s2 not for s1. Which bars fit the s1 why would an 8v s2 bar not fit a 8v s1?


the hood will close


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## onurB (Nov 4, 2010)

8v-of-fury said:


> Your Car?
> 
> More details?? :thumbup:





Black92EightValve said:


> This !!! :thumbup:


That car?










Guy from Montreal.
Pretty awsome build.
Don't remember his s/n here on vortex, maybe Marc can help out.


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## ziggirocco (Dec 13, 2010)

I'd love to see more pics of the chasis / front rear suspention on it.


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## Ralph1975 (Mar 8, 2007)

onurB said:


> That car?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is my rocco


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## upoo2 (Dec 7, 2005)

What is going to be the best solution for my S2? 

Here's what I'm working with:
88 16V car w/ stock 2.0 ABA swap
New OEM rubber mounts (no poly anywhere)
NO K-bar (has never had one since I got it, not sure why)
Don't want to run an upper strut bar because I'm shaving my engine bay. Plus I'm not sure if there are any that would work with my swap.
My car will be on coilovers that are moderately stiff and it will be quite low. 
The frame is being notched for the axle on the passenger side to accommodate for the low height.
Car is on 15" wheels with 165/50R15 tires.

I have a 4-point Eurosport subframe brace that I was planning on using, but now I see that there's not way I will be able to run it. The damn thing just hangs down WAY too much from pics I've come across on here.

However it's clear to me that I will need some sort of lower bracing if I'm actually going to enjoy this car and take it on some trips this year. What bar will work best for my situation? 

Thanks!


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## murph81 (Sep 5, 2011)

Is there any nice braces like the K-bar for Mk1's running 02J gearboxes?


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

I have an 02a installed in my mk1 
How much of a difference is the case?

I have a Eurosport style 4 point lower 
subframe 
And no it doesn't it anything 
I was hoping to switch to 02j later 


Anyone have a stress bar for a mk1 16v ?
I need something for the race car 
I have stuff to trade


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## deepgrooves74 (Aug 3, 2006)

*Another resurrection...*

This information should seriously be put into the sticky area if it is not already. I haven't had a chance to look there since I only just found this thread. I am currently looking for pictures of the VW more sports brace it's in the inner fender well. Came across it recently, and like an idiot I did not save the pictures, and or the website.


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## Hybrid VW (Jan 18, 2001)

murph81 said:


> Is there any nice braces like the K-bar for Mk1's running 02J gearboxes?


Shawn VanNeer welded some ~1" tabs on the front legs of my K-bar to lower the front to clear my O2M. Pretty simple and effective mod


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## dubbin808 (Oct 9, 2006)

*nice front mount*

where can i get this part? looks solid


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## britishrocco (Dec 14, 2006)

very informative thread, I just order a cross member bar of ebay, since am in the middle of the 1.8T swap, i figure it will be needed, I also got a OMP upper bar, that I hope will still fit...

what's the major difference between the 2 points and 4 points lower bar? is the 4 points bar too much??? not sure which one to order


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

You already said the difference: 2-point bar attaches at 2 points; a 4-point bar, at 4.  

Two-point: just ties the front mounting points for the control arms together. 
Four-point: in addition to ^^^, also triangulates to the body, just next to the rear mounts for the control arms (aftermarket bar may use the rear mounts, rather than holes in the body.) 
An example of a 4-point bar would be the K-bar found on a Scirocco 16v.


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## britishrocco (Dec 14, 2006)

cuppie said:


> You already said the difference: 2-point bar attaches at 2 points; a 4-point bar, at 4.
> 
> Two-point: just ties the front mounting points for the control arms together.
> Four-point: in addition to ^^^, also triangulates to the body, just next to the rear mounts for the control arms (aftermarket bar may use the rear mounts, rather than holes in the body.)
> An example of a 4-point bar would be the K-bar found on a Scirocco 16v.


i know, but am i over kill with a 4 points for a street car?


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

No, I don't think it's overkill. FWIW, VW didn't think it was overkill, either.....


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## deepgrooves74 (Aug 3, 2006)

cuppie said:


> No, I don't think it's overkill. FWIW, VW didn't think it was overkill, either.....


X2

Read through this thread, and nothing is an over estimation… These cars flex like crazy and break the spot welds! if you are planning on putting more power than it was designed for through the chassis, and also pushing the car it would be wise to add the bracing…




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blue plates (Apr 12, 2014)

deepgrooves74 said:


> X2
> 
> Read through this thread, and nothing is an over estimation… These cars flex like crazy and break the spot welds! if you are planning on putting more power than it was designed for through the chassis, and also pushing the car it would be wise to add the bracing…
> 
> ...




So, in everyones opinion, whats the best bars to run thatre still available?


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## britishrocco (Dec 14, 2006)

blue plates said:


> So, in everyones opinion, whats the best bars to run thatre still available?


a 4points lower bar, a cross member reinforcement and an upper bar


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## blue plates (Apr 12, 2014)

britishrocco said:


> a 4points lower bar, a cross member reinforcement and an upper bar



who sells a 4 point these days? I know Eurosport sells the upper and k bar.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Well, a K bar _is_ a 4-point bar....  
I believe Techtonics still sells a 4-point bar (last I looked, it looks exactly like a K bar.) 
Maybe BFI, too? (they'd be a likely suspect.)


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## britishrocco (Dec 14, 2006)

blue plates said:


> who sells a 4 point these days? I know Eurosport sells the upper and k bar.


Go kraut sells one http://www.gokraut.com/
Raceland sells an upper bar too, not sure about the quality, if we judge by their coilover...


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## deepgrooves74 (Aug 3, 2006)

What about inner fender well bracing like they did with VW motorsports?I am going to make one for my car, and possibly re-create it for others if it works well… When I get home tonight I will post pictures of what I am thinking about making and also pictures of the one that VW motorsports created as well...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## deepgrooves74 (Aug 3, 2006)

Vvveee dubbin


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## blue plates (Apr 12, 2014)

britishrocco said:


> Go kraut sells one http://www.gokraut.com/
> Raceland sells an upper bar too, not sure about the quality, if we judge by their coilover...


Ordered one from gokraut!



deepgrooves74 said:


> What about inner fender well bracing like they did with VW motorsports?I am going to make one for my car, and possibly re-create it for others if it works well… When I get home tonight I will post pictures of what I am thinking about making and also pictures of the one that VW motorsports created as well...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Patiently waiting


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## deepgrooves74 (Aug 3, 2006)

Okay here is the first one which is the VW motorsports brace…




























Trying to find the picture I have of this mounted...

The one I want to make will be more like this one:











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thegave (Dec 22, 2008)

Is it possible to run the control arm tie bar and k-bar together?


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## deepgrooves74 (Aug 3, 2006)

thegave said:


> Is it possible to run the control arm tie bar and k-bar together?


Why would you want to do that? If you have the X brace or as you're calling it the control arm tiebar you wouldn't need the K bar. It's kind of redundant.


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## thegave (Dec 22, 2008)

the tie bar I was referring to only has two mounting points. The X-brace I imagine has four. I guess with the four point brace like the K-bar or the GoKraut one, the two-point bar becomes kind of redundant but I mean really don't want my car wiggling itself apart.. There seems to be a dizzying array of options



britishrocco said:


> a 4points lower bar, a cross member reinforcement and an upper bar


What is the cross member reinforcement referred to further up this page, if not the two-point bar that connects between the two rear mounting points of the control arms?


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## 16V_Scirocco_GTX (Jul 18, 2001)

You can either use the 2 or the K/4 point. They mount in the same location up front so no way to use both.

The cross member reinforcement bar goes between the bumper mounts and ties in the front motor mount. It sits against the core support that the radiator sits on. The other braces attach down low where the front a-arm bolt is.


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## Hybrid VW (Jan 18, 2001)

thegave said:


> the tie bar I was referring to only has two mounting points. The X-brace I imagine has four. I guess with the four point brace like the K-bar or the GoKraut one, the two-point bar becomes kind of redundant but I mean really don't want my car wiggling itself apart.. There seems to be a dizzying array of options


For a data point, I bought my car when it had 68k miles on it, and did the full Neuspeed sport/Koni setup by the time it had about 75k on it (16V with the stock K bar). Put a 1.8T in it at about 198k and an O2M trans at around 250k. I'm getting real close to 400k miles in it now, making near 300whp, and the only body strength issues I've had were the radiator support/front motor mount area cracking around the stock air inlet shortly after the 1.8T went in.


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