# Racing all motor..........need help



## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

*NA Racing motor......need advice*

Would like to build a multiple valve 4 cylinder all motor..............VW Has a host of new heads hoping to achieve around 280 hp
Presently running an 8v that produce 200hp
All recommendation are welcome


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

here a start AEB head or FSI head


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

If you truly have an 8V motor at 200hp, a 16V or a 20V head should get you at or near your goal.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Bertil's 2.0 usf3 motor 200hp 8v


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Then you know you will need different pistons to keep the CR high to go with what ever head you use.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Which head is better 20v or late 16v ,the motor will be running only on VP. compression 13:1.........my believe is, for racing reliability is preferred over out right performance .


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

That, I think is a good question. What is your budget, what aftermarket parts are available, what does your motor builder prefer? How much fabrication are you willing to do/allowed?


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

my budget is 10,000.00,ITB dry sump holley hp


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Which VW aluminum block is strong enough for road racing.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Not sure where you are located. No aluminum blocks in North America. Except the new hybrid motors but they are tiny. Even then the aluminum blocks are not very common there are a few different varieties with displacement ranging from 1.6-2.0. There are open and closed deck. The seem to be about 44lbs instead of 88lbs from the research I have done. Also plan to spend $1000+ for the block. And then when it blows up need to repeat process.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Im located in FL ......................so what ur indicated is stay away from the aluminium blocks.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I'm not saying stay away at all. I'm saying they are a pain in the ass to get and cost a decent amount. We all know with racing **** happens.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

i meant to comment on this a little more before. I think for your HP goals you will need a bigger budget. Is 280HP possible, most likely but not to sure of many cars at that level. Is there any reason for that specific HP number? is that at wheels or crank?


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

My car is competing with the honda k motors


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Are there rules for said road racing?


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Very simple 1 lb x cc ................max 2.3 cc 4 or 5 valve
0.85 lb x cc..................max 2.2 cc 2 valve 

Example 1x1800 cc =1800lb


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

After having 544 viewed only 2 contribute are all motors going out of style.................where are the VW experts


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

The VW all motor scene is dead.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Seems a well ported 16 or 20V head on top of a well built block with dry sump and EFI'd ITB's will get you at or near your targeted HP. With the "budget" you have, I don't see how you can't make your target. You'll just have to decide how heavy you want the car. I would suggest oversquare dimensions for high rev's, tq will suck,but you'll have hp at the top-end.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

In the Honda scene every thing is alive and well........................sound like VW enthusiast has put up their white flags..............


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

The All motor honda scene sure is an inspiration. I would love to see more all motor VWs but we are at a disadvantage. stock K series are already at the HP range the VWs are at with many mods. I dont mean to be debbie downer but i think you will need a bigger budget to reach that HP goal.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Another important factor is the chassis the motor is going into. Most of the hondas are able to take a bigger tire and wheel than a VW of a similar age. And they generally have a better stock suspension. And other than the Scirocco and Corado, the hondas have the advantage in aero too.

I have a friend who this year placed 2nd at SCCA SoloII Nationals in a Street tire class in a Miata, You know what beat him? A CRX! Seems they have a motor and can handle as well as any car out there!

Build your VW motor and car and enjoy driving it and hopefully beating some hondas while you're at it. But, if you really need to win, you may have to consider another make.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

I have been competing with VW since early 90.......since then I have raced Rabbit, mk2 golf,corrado,
Drakes's motor , 1.8 t ,Bertil"s motor.
What I Race !
A new prep mk2 1680 lbs that handles like its on rails 
I already have in stock 
Holley HP
Dry Sump System for AEG bottom
1.8 T ITB
Just need to decide what head is more durable ( most people recommend 16v but which head )


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## vwkeeno (Oct 16, 2013)

*need help on some modifications for my 2L 8v*

Hi, I'm running 2L 8V 2e motor in my golf mk1, head skimmed, 288 camshaft, flowed and ported and abf pistons on my block, compression lift now is on 11:1 from 10.5:1, doin 144hp on wheel.....I need abit more help on a bit more modifications, to make it faster lol. But having put those abf pistons, helped lift the compression on the motor, but its sittin almost 1mm below flush to block... Why did my pistons take a lower height from being flush, its short skirt pistons wid 20mm gudgin pin set. 

I'd be really appreciated for some help from you guys, as this is my first day on this forum. Thanks


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

16v pistons have 1mm less compression height.

I think long run the FSI/TFSI heads are the way to go. There are some cam options but not as available as the older engines. 

I helped with a just sub 200whp 20v and it was a ton of work. If you are looking for 280whp to compete with K series at 2.1L or less, it's going to be a long, hard, untraveled road.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

16v Drakes said:


> I have been competing with VW since early 90.......since then I have raced Rabbit, mk2 golf,corrado,
> Drakes's motor , 1.8 t ,Bertil"s motor.
> What I Race !
> A new prep mk2 1680 lbs that handles like its on rails
> ...


Not sure what the "Holley HP" is, but if it's the efi, I can almost guarantee that MS is easier to tune.
And as for durable heads, that would mostly depend on how far you push/build it and what your part selection is. As mentioned earlier, the 16V head has a ton of parts available for it, where the other choices, they are either too new or hard to find on this side of the pond. I would start with what is available and build it to it's limits (16V) and see how far that gets you, and investigate what is available and coming for the others (20V and FSI heads).


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> 16v pistons have 1mm less compression height.
> 
> I think long run the FSI/TFSI heads are the way to go. There are some cam options but not as available as the older engines.
> 
> I helped with a just sub 200whp 20v and it was a ton of work. If you are looking for 280whp to compete with K series at 2.1L or less, it's going to be a long, hard, untraveled road.


Nothing is written in stone as yet just trying to get expert advice from people who know


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

ps2375 said:


> Not sure what the "Holley HP" is, but if it's the efi, I can almost guarantee that MS is easier to tune.
> And as for durable heads, that would mostly depend on how far you push/build it and what your part selection is. As mentioned earlier, the 16V head has a ton of parts available for it, where the other choices, they are either too new or hard to find on this side of the pond. I would start with what is available and build it to it's limits (16V) and see how far that gets you, and investigate what is available and coming for the others (20V and FSI heads).


Have never worked on MS but saw a few cars having issues with them on the other hand the HP self learning is super fast.


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## heyfu (Mar 27, 2006)

if you have the budget i would look in to drake 16v motor :thumbup:


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

heyfu said:


> if you have the budget i would look in to drake 16v motor :thumbup:


Why would you do that, IF you can get one, that really limits your ability to get spares, and I doubt that it'll flow much better than a properly ported factory head. As the rest of the motor is a VW block, the early ones. The OP is ready to go with the newer and probably better 06A block.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

heyfu said:


> if you have the budget i would look in to drake 16v motor :thumbup:


I have a Drakes's 16v head and ITB....................but the head has to be VW


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I would personally do a 20v head or newer 16v Fsi head. Will flow more than old 16v stuff. Limitations I see of Fsi head is not many cam choices. Although anything can be made for the right amount.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

If the flow in the new generation 16v head are superior there is not much need for cams..........what are your thoughts .


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

bonesaw said:


> I would personally do a 20v head or newer 16v Fsi head. Will flow more than old 16v stuff. Limitations I see of Fsi head is not many cam choices. Although anything can be made for the right amount.


http://www.catcams.com/engines/engine-selection.aspx?SelectedManufacturer=29


http://www.catcams.com/products/camshafts/datasheet.aspx?ENGINE_id=146&CAMSETUP_id=1344


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Pretty sure cams will be needed, cause flow and normal rpm's aren't going to get you to your target. Cam's profiled for the added rpm's will most likely be needed, as you'll also wnat to go with shim under solid followers to enable the added rev's with reliability.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

ps2375 said:


> Pretty sure cams will be needed, cause flow and normal rpm's aren't going to get you to your target. Cam's profiled for the added rpm's will most likely be needed, as you'll also wnat to go with shim under solid followers to enable the added rev's with reliability.




http://www.catcams.com/engines/camshaft-setup.aspx


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

16v Drakes said:


> http://www.catcams.com/engines/camshaft-setup.aspx


All well and good if you are going to stick with the DI, and the turbo. I sorta thought this was about an NA motor?


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

ps2375 said:


> All well and good if you are going to stick with the DI, and the turbo. I sorta thought this was about an NA motor?


That was a quick search ,I will send Cat an email............will post the respond.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Now the recipe for the bottom. 

Aluminium or cast iron block


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Iron block. The weight difference isnt worth the hassle.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Why is the Honda K motor running chills on the VW vortex 
Any Spec on the k motor 
Bore + stroke
Head flow rate
Hp + torque


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

16v Drakes said:


> Why is the Honda K motor running chills on the VW vortex
> Any Spec on the k motor
> Bore + stroke
> Head flow rate
> Hp + torque


You're the one who competes against them. You should know this or where to get the answers.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

There is noting can halt this post like mentioning honda k motors


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

True. If my next setup doesnt do what I want, I am jumping ship. Still not cheap but at least you dont have to design all your own parts.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

16v Drakes said:


> There is noting can halt this post like mentioning honda k motors


I drive and race (auto-x/hillclimb) VW's because I like them, I don't expect to be the fastest with them. And there aren't now nor have their been that many of them in the grid. I was at an auto-x this weekend, and I'll bet fully half the cars were either honda's or subi's. And since our car has been broken, there were no VW's in the grid.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

I believe VW are super cars...............I have race them for 20 years but for us we can only be successful,with information sharing it also prevents wasteful spending .I will begin to compete with the K motor in 2015 season. So by last 1/4 of 2014 Engine testing should be completed .I dont believe i would ever compete in a honda even if the car is free. There is someting about building and developing that sets u free.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

16v Drakes said:


> I believe VW are super cars...............I have race them for 20 years but for us we can only be successful,with information sharing it also prevents wasteful spending .I will begin to compete with the K motor in 2015 season. So by last 1/4 of 2014 Engine testing should be completed .I dont believe i would ever compete in a honda even if the car is free. There is someting about building and developing that sets u free.


Do you mean you will be competing against them or that you will be using them?


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## Bubble Block (Sep 19, 2009)

*Know thy enemy*



16v Drakes said:


> Why is the Honda K motor running chills on the VW vortex


I wouldn't, necessarily, say the K Series motors are running chills on VW Vortex; however, they are strong motors and make a great competitor.



16v Drakes said:


> Any Spec on the k motor
> Bore + stroke
> Head flow rate
> Hp + torque


Assuming you are referring to the K20 as opposed to the K24 (larger displacemnt NA) or K23 (turbocharged version). Also, it would be best to assume you would rather compare to the performance built K20a found in the Type R opposed to the economic version; therefore, that is the motor specs I will be listing for you.

Displacement = 1998cc
Bore = 86mm 
Stroke = 86mm (with both the B&S being the same size, this is a square design to deliver higher hp & trq)
Compression Ratio = 11.0:1 to 11.5:1
HP Rating = 225bhp @ 8000rpm
Trq Rating = 159ft lbs @ 6100rpm

Now, what most people don't pay attention to.. 
Both the head and block are Aluminum; however, the block uses Cast iron sleeves. The K-Series utilizes a segregated, chain-driven oil pump and one-piece crank girdle, which reduces the chance of crank walk at higher engine speeds. The K20a engine features larger intake valves and smoother exhaust/ intake manifolds that allow the motor to breath better. It has a Short block deck height of212mm and the Cam Specs are as follows:
durration intake 320*
exhaust 318*
lift (mm) intake 12.27
exhaust 10.77

A complete K20a weights just a hair over 400lbs, throw that in a EG series hatch and you have a lot to play with. the K20a also uses a coil on plug ignition system which enables the ECU to manipulate ignition timing, which in-turn provides for easier tuning. This is how the motor comes stock. 

Lets not forget that when comparing to VW motors, it is our older style motors that it usually gets compared to; an unfair comparison in my opinion. An important note to factor in, our "high" or radical cam profiles are typically around 288* unless it is custom made. It is also important to note that it doesn't take much work to raise the compression ratio on the K20a which squeezes out extra ponies. 

In no way am I a fan of the Honda crowd (hence my being a VW lover to the core), but that doesn't mean I don't respect or appreciate a well built motor. The stock setup of the K20a is typically where a mildly built 16v would be in regards to hp/trq. Again, we are comparing a modern (developed with in the past 10yrs) motor to a motor over 20yrs old. 

Hope that helps :beer:


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Bubble Block said:


> I wouldn't, necessarily, say the K Series motors are running chills on VW Vortex; however, they are strong motors and make a great competitor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bubble Block
I never had the intention of using any of VW older motors...........In the last 4 years was racing a 8v 200hp and was out of the loop about VW newer motors .For that reason I had started this post.........................So can someone tell me if the 5v head flows more than the modern 16v and any data to support it.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have some AEB vs newer 4v stuff somewhere, I will post it if I can find it. "The" head to get is likely the non-turbo FSI setup.


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## Bubble Block (Sep 19, 2009)

16v Drakes said:


> Bubble Block
> I never had the intention of using any of VW older motors...........In the last 4 years was racing a 8v 200hp and was out of the loop about VW newer motors .For that reason I had started this post.........................So can someone tell me if the 5v head flows more than the modern 16v and any data to support it.


16v Drakes
My response was souly made for the info on the K-Series motors, in no way was I insinuating you would be using older VW motors; I was merely stating the unfair comparison between the two (due to everyone always saying it is cheaper and easier to build a 16v opposed to a 20v due to parts availability). I have not been able to find the documents backing the arguments but my research has shown that the 20v does not flow better than the 16v due to the lack of surface area (in regards to a NA motor); however, I did manage to come across these numbers which contradicted that previous statement:
1.8t 20v small port:

Int. [email protected] .380" valve lift

Exh. [email protected] .380" valve lift



1.8t 20v big port:

Int. [email protected] .380" valve lift

Exh. [email protected] .380" valve lift



2.0l 16v (numbers at .400" valve lift)

Int. [email protected] .400" valve lift

Exh. [email protected] .380" valve lift



8v crossflow (numbers at .450" valve lift)

Int. [email protected] .450" valve lift

Exh. [email protected] .450" valve lift



12v (numbers at .450" valve lift)

Int. [email protected] .450" valve lift

Exh [email protected] .450" valve lift

Source

But again, I couldn't find any actual documents to support claims on either side.

Going back to your original post, i agree with Need_a_VR6 in that the Non-turbo FSI will probably be your best bet. On another note, a company known as Hurrican Racing has managed to squeeze 265 ponies @ 8500rpm out a 16v, they can be found Here, I thought was also nice to know. Hope this has all been useful information for you :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nice compilation of flow numbers. They all change quite a bit when ported. Biggest problem on the 16v is the exhaust side, you can't get a good ratio with how the short turn is, so you end up running really big exhaust cams to compensate as you increase intake flow.

The only issue with the newer heads is the roller rockers. Ferrea has shims for the lifters to preload them, but I am not sure at what point even those give up. Making mechanical adjusters for that head shouldn't be too hard, just work.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

which bottom will be better 2.0 long stroke or 1.8 short stroke


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

I think the more important figure to look at is the rod length/stroke ratio, as a motor like a 9a (short rods/long stroke) is not as good as a motor like the ABA (longer rods/long stroke) when it comes to "rev-ability". It has something to do with the angle of the rod to the direction of piston travel at BTDC and with the rate at which the piston accelerates when changing direction with the shorter rod length. Just some stiff I've read somewhere along the way.


Shouldn't you be discussing all of this with your engine builder? A decent one would know most of this even if he weren't a VW specialist.


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

ps2375 said:


> I think the more important figure to look at is the rod length/stroke ratio, as a motor like a 9a (short rods/long stroke) is not as good as a motor like the ABA (longer rods/long stroke) when it comes to "rev-ability". It has something to do with the angle of the rod to the direction of piston travel at BTDC and with the rate at which the piston accelerates when changing direction with the shorter rod length. Just some stiff I've read somewhere along the way.
> 
> 
> Shouldn't you be discussing all of this with your engine builder? A decent one would know most of this even if he weren't a VW specialist.




I believe knowledge is power maybe someone will learn something from this discussion.........................I have a VW engine builder but he will never discuses his formula and his engine are sealed.


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## dub nutz (Dec 30, 2010)

dont know if you've seen this thread, but good things going on in here. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5914701-2-0-20v-kitcar-engine-project


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## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

I don't have any information on the 2L FSI or TFSI heads, but I can tell you exactly how to make 280hp. Audi made over 300hp with a tall block 1998cc 16V motor 20 years ago. It's not difficult to get to 280hp, specifically because you're not limited to 2000cc. You can go with 2057cc motor, which is 92.8mm stroke, and 84mm bore. 34mm intake valves, 30mm exhaust. the motor will need to be converted to solid lifter, shim under bucket. 50mm ITB, and programmable fuel injection. If you're racing, my advice is to go with a dry sump.

My last motor made 206WHP, with over rotated throttle plates. this was on Shrick 300deg 12mm lift cams. I corrected this, and seat of the pants, it felt much faster. I can't tell you if it made 215, 220, or 230 wheel, as it would be a guess. I ditched the Shrick cams for Cat Cams that have 2mm more lift, and way more duration.

You want to make the power, 16V all the way!


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## 16v Drakes (May 26, 2008)

Raceco Duratec 2.2 litre engine. The culmination of thirty years of work in the engine tuning business. 312 bhp 201 ft lb of torque normally aspirated. 9,000 rpm 89x88 over square engine. Raceco Design fully counter balanced crank, rods, pistons, valves, cams, crank, water pump, alternator pulley, 54mm throttle bodies and bellmouths, etc. I used to joke that the only unmodified parts left were the valve split collets. Fitted to a 520 kilo Caterham it would wheel spin in 5th gear.


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## 134hpvw (Sep 6, 2013)

The thread on clubgti.com about the btcc used audi motors has really good info

Here you go

http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.p...C-STW-engine-specs-305-bhp-from-an-N-A-valver

I am starting to put together parts for a free revving motor to be used for weekend warrior 3400 lbs passat b3. 

Not a race winner but, like to gather knowledge and spend the money wisely.


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