# Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats?



## Tim Herman (May 31, 2006)

I became a grandpa for the first time recently, and I need to know if it's safe to put my grandson in his care seat in the rear seat. I read this recently: "Most manufacturers have not met the safety standards for children for rear side impact airbags. Most side air bags are designed to protect the head and chest of a fully-grown adult, and may cause serious or fatal injuries to children under age 12, according to the NHTSA. Check with the manufacturer; if they can't prove that their rear side airbags meet the safety standards for child passengers, have the dealer deactivate them for you. You can have them reactivated later."
Does anyone know VW stated position on this?


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## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (Tim Herman)*

Hello Tim. Do you have a 4-seater or 5-seater? If you have the rear bench, is there the option of the putting the child in the middle? That would solve the issue pretty quickly...
You might try calling PCC (Phaeton Customer Care) on this one.


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## Tim Herman (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (OEMpl.us)*

My wife was hoping to not put him in the middle because it's too difficult to get him in/out of the carseat.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (Tim Herman)*

The side airbags are a lot differernt than the front. They may not be an issue here, or they may be deactivated with the child locks are activated on the rear doors?


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (Tim Herman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tim Herman* »_My wife was hoping to not put him in the middle because it's too difficult to get him in/out of the carseat.

It may be more difficult, but the rear middle seat is the safest position for an infant/baby in the car.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (Tim Herman)*

Hi Tim:
Not sure if I said it already, but, welcome to the forum.
Big disclaimer here: I don't have any children, and I have never been inside a car when the airbags have deployed. But... a close friend of mine was in an accident with her Touareg, and the side airbags did deploy. I took a bunch of pictures of the deployed airbags - one is below.
I get the impression that the side airbags do not deploy in the same manner as the front airbags (meaning, in the shape of a beach-ball), instead, they deploy more or less in the shape of a mattress. If you have a look at the picture, you will see serpentine shaped welds in the fabric that prevent the thing from expanding in the shape of a hot-dog bun, and retain it in the same shape as an air mattress.
Also - just my thoughts here, and I could be wrong - if the side airbags don't deploy far enough out into the interior of the car to do damage to an adult's head, then they won't be able to deploy far enough out into the car to do damage to a child's head either. If a child is sitting the rear seat in a booster seat, their head will be pretty much in the same place as an adult's head will be. This is very different than the scenario that takes place in the front seat.
If you have one child, the workaround is easy - put it in the middle, where he or she can stay amused by either kicking or incessantly playing with the rear seat HVAC controls. If you have two kids - perhaps you might want to put both of them in the trunk, just to be on the safe side. If you remove the ski bag, that will allow you to pass toys and cookies through the hole, which is not big enough to allow the kids to escape forward into the cabin of the car.








Michael
*Touareg - Side Airbag Deployment*


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
WOW! While I have been witness to a front air bag deploying personally, it's not an experience I wish to repeat anytime soon.
I hope your friend is okay -- it looks as though the Touareg took quite a hit -- would be interesting to see another photo from the outside, just to show how well the cabin integrity remained after the impact.
As for the side airbag concern, I would probably want to see a diagram of the thorax airbag in the rear before I made any determination. However, I personally believe if the orientation of the child seat to the vehicle's seat is corrent, there shouldn't be an issue. (Disclaimer: you each need to come to your own conclusions on this -- I'm not going to be responsible for launching whelps out the other side of the vehicle...)


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## jlindy (Mar 21, 2006)

There are a couple of safety features concerning this on cars that I have owned i the past, but not sure if they relate to the Phaeton or not. VW/Phaeton Customer service really needs to give the answers to this one though and would be curious as to what they say.
1. The airbags are programmed not to deploy if the passenger is below a specific weight so infants/toddler's in a car seat will not exceed the weight requirements thus dangering the child. (again not sure which cars this is on or if it is on the Phaeton)
2. I have also heard from Mercedes Customer service on a ML320 I had in the past that if the child seat saftey latches at the base of the seat are used, the airbags are automatically shut off to prevent injury. (the Phaeton's latches are really far back there and pretty tight to get at, so the hooking mechanism in my car seat can't even get back there very easily if at all. 
Good topic, someone please chime in that has talked with customer service or has a definitive answer.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_...would be interesting to see another photo from the outside, just to show how well the cabin integrity remained after the impact..)

Your slightest wish is my command...
The Touareg was T-boned by a Ford F-150 that ran a red light at about 45 MPH. The occupant was not injured in any way, save for a few scratches from the steering wheel airbag. She had the Touareg towed back to the dealership, where the general consensus was that it was beyond economical repair.
Interesting to note that she decided to get another Touareg to replace it. Also worth noting that she has a 18 month year old who is a frequent passenger, but was not in the vehicle at the time of this accident.
Michael
*Photo of the same Touareg, from the outside*


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## Tim Herman (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

Michael, thank you so much for the pic...it really helps to visualize the process.
Tim


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (jlindy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jlindy* »_There are a couple of safety features concerning this on cars that I have owned i the past, but not sure if they relate to the Phaeton or not. VW/Phaeton Customer service really needs to give the answers to this one though and would be curious as to what they say.
1. The airbags are programmed not to deploy if the passenger is below a specific weight so infants/toddler's in a car seat will not exceed the weight requirements thus dangering the child. (again not sure which cars this is on or if it is on the Phaeton)
2. I have also heard from Mercedes Customer service on a ML320 I had in the past that if the child seat safety latches at the base of the seat are used, the airbags are automatically shut off to prevent injury. (the Phaeton's latches are really far back there and pretty tight to get at, so the hooking mechanism in my car seat can't even get back there very easily if at all. 
Good topic, someone please chime in that has talked with customer service or has a definitive answer.

The definitive answer comes from the US Government, not from VW. Rules governing airbag deployment are set by the American government via FMVSS, not by VW.
Up to the introduction of the vehicles that have a 'Passenger Airbag Off' light mounted near the rear view mirror, both front airbags would deploy in the event of an accident. Since the introduction of the 'Passenger Airbag Off' light, there is a weight-sensor in the front passenger seat that determines whether to arm the passenger airbag or not.
The American government does not trust drivers to use a key-switch (such as is provided in the rest of the world) to make their own decisions about whether to enable or disable the passenger airbag. As a result - the weight sensing switch makes the decision for the driver. Specifications for the operation of the weight-sensing switch (which apply equally to all motor vehicles sold in the USA) can be found by looking up the appropriate FMVSS.
A picture of the 'Passenger Airbag Status' light provided on some late production 2005 NAR Phaetons and all 2006 NAR Phaetons is below. See also the previous discussion of this topic on this thread: F/S Campenella White 2005 Phaeton V8 (and passenger airbag light discussion).
Michael
*Passenger Airbag Off annunciator light - mid 2005 production running change*


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (jlindy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jlindy* »_1. The airbags are programmed not to deploy if the passenger is below a specific weight so infants/toddler's in a car seat will not exceed the weight requirements thus dangering the child. (again not sure which cars this is on or if it is on the Phaeton)

Keep in mind, this PODS (Passenger Occupant Detection System) applies to the passenger front seat only.

_Quote, originally posted by *jlindy* »_2. I have also heard from Mercedes Customer service on a ML320 I had in the past that if the child seat saftey latches at the base of the seat are used, the airbags are automatically shut off to prevent injury. (the Phaeton's latches are really far back there and pretty tight to get at, so the hooking mechanism in my car seat can't even get back there very easily if at all. 

I would be very curious to know how this works. The full extent of the LATCH system on a VW are two metal rings mounted on steel plates that bolt into the carrosserie -- no electrical connections whatsoever. I would assume this the case across the board since the LATCH system is standardized across all makes & models.


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

I had previously decided not to post on this subject however stating that:
"None of my comments in theis post are to be taken as an endorsement of any particular arrangement and are only presented as personal opinion not expert advice or recommendation and are provided only as items for consideration".
As the Former Technical Director of Air Cushion Restraints for Allied Chemical now part of GE and the holder of 28 patents on a variety of Air Bag designs I would wholeheartedly endorse the comments made by Michael.
Personally, for any car IF it is a full bench in the rear and IF it is endorsed by a Manufacturer as having the appropriate attachment points for a manufacturer endorsed child restraint system, IMO, the center position in the rear is the safest for a variety of reasons.
A major reason for my purchase of the (according to door sticker ) 6189 pound Phaeton, was it construction and safety of collision construction.
P.S. Most air bag weight activation systems utilize a variety of seat bottom deflection switchs responding to weight for air bag control ( if the system utilizes same)



_Modified by GripperDon at 10:37 AM 8-14-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_I would be very curious to know how this works. The full extent of the LATCH system on a VW are two metal rings mounted on steel plates that bolt into the carrosserie -- no electrical connections whatsoever. I would assume this the case across the board since the LATCH system is standardized across all makes & models.

Hi Chris:
What you say is correct for NAR. In other markets (Europe), the car manufacturers have a bit more freedom to innovate. So, many manufacturers incorporate a system that automatically turns off the appropriate air bags if you install a child seat that uses the ISOFIX / LATCH mounting points. There are no electrical connections or switches involved, the child seat has a RFID device in the base of it, and there is a sensor in the car seat cushion that detects the presence of the child seat.
It's a clever idea, the only downside is that you have to buy a child seat from the accessory catalog of the company that made your car (e.g. BMW child seat, VW child seat) in order to ensure that the car will recognize the child seat.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (Tim Herman)*

Tim:
This is the only photo (illustration) I have been able to find that shows Phaeton airbag deployment. It appears to me that the side airbags do not intrude sufficiently towards the center of the cabin to present any hazard to a child that is sitting in the middle of any of the 5 seating positions.
The front passenger airbag is a monster, though, and this illustration shows the ROW (European) specification front airbag. The NAR (North American Region) front passenger airbag is even bigger. I can certainly see why it is inappropriate to put a small child in the front passenger seat unless you have the ability to turn off the front passenger airbag.
Michael
*Airbag Deployment*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

Below are two photos that show the front airbags deployed on a 2004 Phaeton. This is a UK specification (right hand drive) car. The passenger side airbag is the smaller, 'non-USA' size airbag.
Michael
*Driver Airbag Deployed*








*Front Passenger Airbag Deployed*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

And, some photos of airbag deployment on a North American Phaeton. If you have a look at the airbag cover in the last photo, you will see why you cannot replace the VW logo on the steering wheel if it becomes scratched.
Michael


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## mindat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

Hi,does anyone know how to remove the steering wheel airbag?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (mindat)*

Yes.
Go to the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category), and look for the post entitled "Retrofitting a 6 button Cruise Control Switch" - you will find full instructions, including photos, on that post.
Michael


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## mindat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

Thank you Michael,the job is done.Do u also know how to take out the passenger's airbag from the panel?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (mindat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mindat* »_Do you also know how to take out the passenger's airbag from the panel?

That is a major undertaking that requires removal of the whole instrument panel.
Michael


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## mindat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

are there any instructions about the whole instrumental panel removal?Couldn't find it here.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (mindat)*

We don't have an illustrated "how to do it" post about instrument panel removal. That is a task that every one of us has managed to avoid so far.
You can find detailed instructions for that task in the Phaeton Maintenance Manual that is published by VW. For information about how to obtain that document (in Lithuanian or English), visit this link: ErWin.
Michael


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## mindat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

the local vw dealer service refused to do this job,coz they "don't know how to do it",thats interesting








is that really such a dificult task?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (mindat)*

It is a difficult and complex task. If the dealership has not sent one of their technicians to the two-week Phaeton technician training course (not likely if the car is not sold in Lithuania), then you should THANK the dealer for having the wisdom and the honesty to decline to do the job.
Far better than they say "no, we don't know how to do it", which is honest and to the point, than they charge in there, tear it all apart, screw it up, then present you with the bill.
You are lucky to have such an honest dealer.
Michael


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## mindat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (PanEuropean)*

the dealer that doesn't know is not in the capital city and doesn't sell phaetons,in the capital they do know how to do it.But anyway did that job myself.
You don't need to remove the whole instrument panel to remove the passenger's airbag.It goes through the glove compartment.20 minutes of work.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear side airbags - safe for children in car seats? (mindat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mindat* »_...You don't need to remove the whole instrument panel to remove the passenger's airbag.It goes through the glove compartment.20 minutes of work.

That may be true (I am not familiar with the process) if the passenger side airbag has not deployed, in other words, if you are just replacing the component itself. But, if the airbag has deployed, it will have ripped through the dashboard cover (something it is designed to do), and that will necessitate removal and replacement of the entire dashboard.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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## Dniredline01 (May 21, 2013)

NOOOPE!

My driveshaft went out a few weeks ago coming home from the mall after dropping the kids off at school. It was a faulty part, I had it replaced in march and the rubber coupling shredded this time. Anyway.. The driveshaft hit the underside of the treg so hard the driver seat airbag and the driver side curtain airbags both went off. The rear pillar came down with such force it would have killed my 4 or 7 year old boys. 

Put the child seat in the middle or not at all. 

I'm new to vortex but I will post pics of this a soon as I figure it out


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> The rear pillar came down with such force it would have killed my 4 or 7 year old boys


Which rear pillar are you referring to? I hope you were unscathed during this.

Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Dniredline01 said:


> ...The rear pillar came down with such force it would have killed my 4 or 7 year old boys. Put the child seat in the middle or not at all.


Gee, that sounds odd - there were two children in the back seat of the Touareg shown in the photo above (and reproduced below) - a 3 year old and a 5 year old - both were in child seats, in the outboard position, and both kids were unharmed (as was the driver).

Are you sure you are not confusing the noise made by the airbag when it deploys with risk of injury? Apparently the airbags make a very loud noise when they go off.

Michael


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