# Need some fluid recommendations



## DjBij099 (Jul 21, 2003)

Alright, I'm getting my car setup for road-racing next year and need your advise on some fluids to help withstand the heat and such. The car will also have a low temp thermoswitch and fan switch along with a oil cooler.

Oil: I'll be using Mobil-1 15w-40 due to it's wide temperature range according to what the bentley manual says. I currently am using 5w-30 castrol syntec blend. I don't think it'll be a problem switching to the heavier oil.

Brake: ATE Super Blue brake fluid. That's what the car has now and I think I should stick to it.

Radiator: It currently is on 50-50 antifreeze/coolant. I know more of the road-race guys tend to just use straight water due to keeping the temperatures down. I don't wanna do that, so I think I'll go 50/50 with redlines water wetter. I've used it in the past before and it worked wonders.

Trans: I have no idea what fluid is currently in it or what fluid I should use. The trans currently has a quaife in it. Some help here would be appreciated.

Any other suggestion for fluids would help me big time based on your experiences. Thanks. :biggrinsanta:


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

You don't use heavier viscosity oil to deal with excessive oil temps for road racing, you install a proper oil cooler and use the proper viscosity oil for the engine clearances. The OE VW synthetic trans oil should be fine.


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

There is no Mobil 1 15w-40. In your climate 15w-40 would be too thick for winter, but great for summer. 5w-40 HD like Shell Rotella would be the thickest I'd go with in cold. Without an OT gauge, you don't know the actual operating visc of your oil is. You may want a 50 weight if it exceeds +230f. If you like Mobil 1, the High Miles are all pretty thick for their stated visc range, and they have Euro specs, with a killer formulation, like a race oil. 










If you want a race oil, try VR-1 or Valvoline Synth Race, 10w-30 and 20w-50 only, so you need to mix them to taste. Redline is the ultimate race oil, but imo superfluous in all butthe MOST EXTREME set-ups. 

If you want any specific reccs, let me know and post some more about your engine and driving.

I'm using Edge 5w-30 right now, a pretty awesome product.











You can punch in some data for your oils and temps and get some info from the graphic visc calc.... Cold starting should be >5000cSt and hot operating visc should stay above 10cSt, according to your temp gauge. 

For example a 50 weight at +230f might be around 10cSt, but can only cold crank down to +20f.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Any quality synthetic engine oil can run at 250 F all day long without issues. You definitely do not want to use 50 weight oil to try and compensate for a lack of proper oil cooling. 230 F is definitley not excessively hot oil. Most car makers require the oil temp to be 240-260 F for proper engine dyno power and durability testing.

A 5W-40 and 15W-40 oil would have the same basic hot viscosity, (i.e. 40 weight), measured @ 212 F but the heavier oil would not flow well when you start the engine cold, leading to increased wear. That is why VW uses 5W-40 oils to have excellent low and high temp engine lubrication.

A UOA test is designed to tell you if the oil is still serviceable, not how the oil lubricates your engine. You'd need to conduct the comprehensive ACEA A3/B4 or car maker oil test sequece that's applicable to your engine family to determine how good or not an oil actually performs in your engine. A UOA is not intended for and can not provide this inforation. A UOA is designed to tell you when the oil needs to be changed and what contaminants are present.

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20090105_081211_ACEA_Oil_Sequences_Final.pdf

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...catid=40:past-articles-of-the-month&Itemid=78


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

That's untrue. Any oil producing minimal wear is working properly.

No sense in arguing viscosity when a simple graph can take care of any questions...











Simple, a 5w-30 VW spec oil is below 10cSt above +110c/230f. Exceeding this temp requires a thicker oil, although techmiser argues otherwise for some reason, which he fails to validate with any references. :thumbdown:

50 weights clearly have an advantage at elevated temps.

fwiw, in Europe 5w-50 is the best selling Mobil 1, and I believe best of all synth oils. Believe for sure, it is used in most race applications. Ask me how I know. :facepalm:


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## DjBij099 (Jul 21, 2003)

Just gonna make a list of the mods done to motor so it'll better help:

1.8 16V (looking to do a 2.0L sometime down the road, it's a bit soft on the low end till about 5-6K )
CIS-Basic
VW Racing Fuel Dizzy
Euro 50mm intake manifold, upper/lower
P&P Head
TT HD Valve Springs
TT tapered valve guides
Schrick 276s (oh yeah :thumbup
Dual Outlet exhaust manifold to techtonics race downpipe (I will be changing this out in the future for a techtonics race header)
Techtonics 2.25 exhaust (I might also change this out for a 2.5" for added peak power due to the large cams)
ARP head studs

I am unsure of the bottom end though in terms of mileage. The head portion has about 50,000 miles on it now.

As far as cooling purposes, I will be getting a TT race thermoswitch. I already have the race thermostat. Also I will be getting a eurosport racing oil cooler kit. I wanted to look for an aftermarket radiator as well, but I have a mk1 style with filler cap (deleted reservoir) and I can't find any aftermarket ones. I plan to do a minimum of 5 track events next year. If I can get more, that be awesome. Maybe an autocross here and there as well. I intend to daily the car too in spring/summer/ some of fall. I don't drive it in winter. I hope this helps out more for understanding what I want to do to with car.


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

Don't fall into the Mobil 1 0w-40 trap. It shears to a 30 in 1000 miles and has copious consumption.

I never said an engine can't run at +230f, but I consider it a cut-off to using 50 weight, for engine longevity, not endurance testing.

Best bet is different winter/summer oils. The M1 High Miles line has 3 different viscs, perfect if you do 3 changes a year, summer 10w-40, fall 10w-30 and winter 5w-30. You really won't get the viscometric result you want with one oil. Go for 5w-40 Rotella or other if you really want a single oil for all seasons. 

You want an oil with an HT/HS >3.5cP, which VW calls for by spec. A few 30 weights make this spec, inc German Syntec 0w-30, a pretty good winter oil. Rotella 10w-30 SemiSynth and M1 10w-30 HM are 30s that make the thick A3 spec (>3.5cP). The HT/HS high-temp / high-shear of Mobil 1 5w-30 HM is 3.4cP, still very serviceable with the thinner A5 spec. Normal thin 30 weights are 2.9cP, for comparison. Get used to this spec, it's the most important for HP applications. The M1 10w-40 HM has a knock-out 4.6cP HT/HS, similar to 50 weights, but thinner and able to pass the 10w cold cranking test. VERY good stuff.

This link gives some insight into the oem spec requirements and how they compare, once you know about them, it can help you select an oil that's suited to your specific application.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RP/PC/index.html


If you find oil temps exceed +230f, a 50 weight is in order. SynPower 20w-50, Syntec 5w-50 and 20w-50...but 20w-50 is no-go in winter. lmk if you want any specific info, but you need to determine your oil temps. Over winter operating temps should be reduced, allowing a thinner oil to be used. I suggest the thick 30s like 5w-30 M1 HiMi because of your somewhat cold conditions, or a 5w-40 if you have consumption. Still, the M1 HM line should be ideal. It has an older API SL spec, allowing higher additive levels than newer SM spec oils. Also has the generic ACEA A3 spec that VW 502 is based on. Check out the link and compare ACEA A3 to VW 502.


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

This page is rather informative, as are the two quotes from elsewhere.

http://www.kuttenkeuler.de/KkWeb/WebObjects/KkWeb.woa/wa/Download/enACEA.pdf?objectId=1000460


"If your manufacturer says to use an oil, I would not worry all that much, higher HT/HS can protect certain areas of the engine better (kinematic viscosity relates more to flow, which is where the 5W-30 comes from) at the expense of fuel economy."

"High-Temperature/High-Shear

This test is a simulation of the shearing effects that would occur within an engine. In fact, it's actually designed to simulate motor oil viscosity in operating crankshaft bearings.

Under high stress conditions where shearing can occur, the VI Improvers (polymers) break down. As they do, the viscosity of the oil decreases. This is what the High Temperature/High Shear test checks for.

The HT/HS test is measured in Centipoise (cP) as the Cold Crank Simulator test is. However, in this case, because you're hoping for the least loss of viscosity with an increase in heat and stress, you want the cP value to remain high.

Each SAE multi-viscosity grade has a specific lower limit for the HT/HS cP value. If a multi-viscosity oil cannot achieve a cP value above that limit, it cannot be classified under that viscosity grade. For instance, according to the SAE specifications, an oil must achieve an HT/HS cP value of 3.7 or higher in order to be classified at the 15w40 viscosity grade. The thinner the oil the lower the number.

So, whether this data appears on a manufacturer's tech spec sheets or not, the company always has the data and it should be available on request.

Mobil 1 15W-50 with a HTHS of 4.5.

I do not remember where this came from but it is not from me. Someone else deserves the credit.


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

Way to take thing out of context and missquote in the process...

techmister said...



TechMeister said:


> A UOA test is designed to tell you if the oil is still serviceable, not how the oil lubricates your engine
> 
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...catid=40:past-articles-of-the-month&Itemid=78


 but in reality it says...

"The other parts of the UOA Report will be much more valuable to you – it will tell you about the CONDITION of the lubricant parts of the UOA Report will be much more valuable to you" 

as well as...

"Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals"

"So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!"

"In my case correctly interpreted UOAs have saved the odd engine from major problems and have proven that certain viscosities work better than others in some specific engine families. UOAs certainly optimized the service life of the lubricants in a cost effective way for many of my customers"


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...catid=40:past-articles-of-the-month&Itemid=78


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes a UOA can tell if you have a mechanical issue like a dirty air filter allowing excess silicon to enter the engine or a head gasket leak allowing anti-freeze to enter the oil, but people try to use wear metals to determine the lubrication performance of the oil and this does is not possible. A sudden rise in wear metals means you have a mechanical issue but it still does not tell you how the oil performs or what caused the sudden increase. Silicon, anti-freeze, fuel, etc. in the oil are contaminants, as I originally posted.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Audi Junkie (audisport), Why did you change your name to Auto Union?


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*same style, same graphs*



saaber2 said:


> Audi Junkie (audisport), Why did you change your name to Auto Union?


same guy


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

How does a bad oil produce a good UOA? 

lol.


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## Auto Union (Dec 25, 2010)

saaber2 said:


> Audi Junkie (audisport), Why did you change your name to Auto Union?



Why did you change from saaber to saaber2?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Auto Union said:


> Why did you change from saaber to saaber2?


I didn't. That name was already taken when I registered. Are you posting now as auto union, audijunkie, or audisporta4? or all three? I'm just curious why? It makes things awfully confusing.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Why would that be confusing?


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