# estimated power output? turbo counterflow 8v



## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Hi just trying to get a estimated hp rating for my setup from people with experience in the 8v turbo world.

Specs- 
rebuilt pg 8v with arp headstuds,260* cam,gt30r .63 AR,15psi,log style tubular exhaust manifold,38mm external wastegate. 3 inch straight pipe exhaust.
Management is digi 1 with 42lb injectors tuned by a friend.
The cylinder head is port matched.
I am running a medium sized fmic and a 50mm bov.
ic piping is 2.5"
it spins 2nd hard rolling into boost.
i have beaten a stock evo 8 from a roll.

my guestimation is 180-220whp let me know what you guys think


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

That's a lot of turbo for your power goals, and injector choice. 

An gt28r would suit your goals better, OR tune for more fuel. No sense in using a turbo that's capable of 450whp(on 20v's anyway) with a 42lb setup


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Rod Ratio said:


> That's a lot of turbo for your power goals, and injector choice.
> 
> An gt28r would suit your goals better, OR tune for more fuel. No sense in using a turbo that's capable of 450whp(on 20v's anyway) with a 42lb setup


he's not trying to achieve a goal, he's looking for a guess on power with the setup he already has...i think you are well above 200. does seem like aweful large injectors, but your tune will reflect your duty cycle. i would suggest getting it on a dyno, both for HP numbers and to get some tuning time in to make sure everything is safe before possible detonation


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

zoidmk5 said:


> he's not trying to achieve a goal, he's looking for a guess on power with the setup he already has...i think you are well above 200. does seem like aweful large injectors, but your tune will reflect your duty cycle. i would suggest getting it on a dyno, both for HP numbers and to get some tuning time in to make sure everything is safe before possible detonation


Just seems more like a 300whp setup on an 8v.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Rod Ratio said:


> Just seems more like a 300whp setup on an 8v.


thats my thought, but without a true tune, and no specifics on anything to monitor the inner workings, that kind of power out of an 8v could be a recipe for destruction


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Luckily it's just an 8v


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

zoidmk5 said:


> thats my thought, but without a true tune, and no specifics on anything to monitor the inner workings, that kind of power out of an 8v could be a recipe for destruction


Truth, no doubt; however...



masterqaz said:


> Luckily it's just an 8v


This:laugh: it's a $100 longblock folks!


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

the tune seems to be spot on i am seeing afrs in the range between 11.0 and 12.0 during full boost pulls. thanks for the estimates. im hoping by the time i get to a dyno i will have it tuned to 18psi and see if i can get anywhere near 300hp.

on a side note do any of you with experience think i could benefit from a crossflow head swap?
obviously the intake charge will be a little cooler but would that really play out to a significant hp gain.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I think you'd have to run boost in the low-mid 20's to see 300wheel.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Rod Ratio said:


> I think you'd have to run boost in the low-mid 20's to see 300wheel.


^^^this, and crossflow > counterflow without a doubt. you'll notice the difference in your power curve on the dyno


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Rod Ratio said:


> I think you'd have to run boost in the low-mid 20's to see 300wheel.


Ok sounds fair enough, we havent figured out a way to upgrade the onboard map sensor in a digi 1 ecu yet and from what ive read digi 1 is only "good" to 18psi,so i dont think i will be hitting 300whp until i make the jump to ms.
Also when i drive the car around its usually at 7-11 psi (wg spring is 7psi) so im hoping this will make the engine last a little longer for me.

Also upon purchasing the turbo and injectors i was thinking these parts would leave me room to grow and not have to buy again.

thanks for the replies fellas!l


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm a 20v 1.8t guy btw. 

I love to check in on these high power 8v builds though. Always some cool stuff in here; although it boggles my mind how many guys don't upgrade their connecting rods


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> until i make the jump to ms


NO!!! go Lugtronic, trust me


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

zoidmk5 said:


> NO!!! go Lugtronic, trust me


This


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Rod Ratio said:


> I'm a 20v 1.8t guy btw.
> 
> I love to check in on these high power 8v builds though. Always some cool stuff in here; although it boggles my mind how many guys don't upgrade their connecting rods


I'm hoping the factory g60 rods will handle what i throw at them.From what i've read the cast pistons are the weak link and the intentions of my build were to make around 200whp and have room to grow so anymore than that is just icing on the cake.

I have experience in the 20v world as well i helped a friend with a nice build with a 2871r a built bottom end,tubular mani and a 3071r. its moves at 26psi. no dynoe there either though. lol


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> I'm hoping the factory g60 rods will handle what i throw at them.From what i've read the cast pistons are the weak link and the intentions of my build were to make around 200whp and have room to grow so anymore than that is just icing on the cake.
> 
> I have experience in the 20v world as well i helped a friend with a nice build with a 2871r a built bottom end,tubular mani and a 3071r. its moves at 26psi. no dynoe there either though. lol


along with the crossflow head (ABA) get the ABA bottom end as well, they came with a forged rotating assembly


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

zoidmk5 said:


> along with the crossflow head (ABA) get the ABA bottom end as well, they came with a forged rotating assembly


i was under the impression that the g60 has forged rods and crank as well. and the aba has the same weak link as my block cast pistons.

please correct me if i am wrong.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> I'm hoping the factory g60 rods will handle what i throw at them.From what i've read the cast pistons are the weak link and the intentions of my build were to make around 200whp and have room to grow so anymore than that is just icing on the cake.
> 
> I have experience in the 20v world as well i helped a friend with a nice build with a 2871r a built bottom end,tubular mani and a 3071r. its moves at 26psi. no dynoe there either though. lol


Well tuned 20v's push 400whp+ on gt30XX turbos. With proper supporting mods of course.

The 8v's tend to see 70-80whp less. That said; you'll run out of injector before 300 wheel. 20V guys are generally running 80-100lb injectors.


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Rod Ratio said:


> Well tuned 20v's push 400whp+ on gt30XX turbos. With proper supporting mods of course.
> 
> The 8v's tend to see 70-80whp less. That said; you'll run out of injector before 300 wheel. 20V guys are generally running 80-100lb injectors.


what injectors do most aba turbos run when reaching 300hp? from what i've seen everyone has a c2 chip and 42lb inj. that said idk if they're reaching 300whp...


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> what injectors do most aba turbos run when reaching 300hp? from what i've seen everyone has a c2 chip and 42lb inj. that said idk if they're reaching 300whp...


I'm the wrong guy to ask bro. What bar are you running them at?


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Rod Ratio said:


> I'm the wrong guy to ask bro. What bar are you running them at?


if you're refering to fpr its a 3bar.

also sorry for asking a q out of your realm no disrespect at all because you have been very knowledgable and helpful which i thank you for. also i know my typing grammar probably looks idiotic because im at work switching screens and typing here and there lol. :beer:


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> if you're refering to fpr its a 3bar.
> 
> also sorry for asking a q out of your realm no disrespect at all because you have been very knowledgable and helpful which i thank you for. also i know my typing grammar probably looks idiotic because im at work switching screens and typing here and there lol. :beer:


Hmm.. Interesting. Either we run too much injector, or you guys are maxing those suckers out! 

Assuming in my head that 42lb injectors are similar to 440cc. 440's-550's at 3 bar is what 1.8t guys run with small hybrids, etc. 

Gt28-gt30 we tend to run 550's at 4 bar to 1000's at 3 bar.

Would be cool if bonesaw would chime in on this


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Rod Ratio said:


> Hmm.. Interesting. Either we run too much injector, or you guys are maxing those suckers out!
> 
> Assuming in my head that 42lb injectors are similar to 440cc. 440's-550's at 3 bar is what 1.8t guys run with small hybrids, etc.
> 
> ...


now that imthinking about it i originally had a 3 bar but eventually upgraded to 3.5 bar. sorry im slow lol. 
from what my buddy says i am running around 85%-90% inj. duty. he uses binary data magic and math to somehow figure this out. that is also how he retunes factory ecu's that were never meant to be tampered with. lol.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Rod Ratio said:


> Hmm.. Interesting. Either we run too much injector, or you guys are maxing those suckers out!
> 
> Assuming in my head that 42lb injectors are similar to 440cc. 440's-550's at 3 bar is what 1.8t guys run with small hybrids, etc.
> 
> ...


i find that most 1.8T guys stick with 630's, then to 850's or 1000's and so on

i personally am running ID1000's with a Bosch044 in a surge tank, an adjustable FPR, and running lugtronic management in a 1.8T MK3


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

zoidmk5 said:


> i find that most 1.8T guys stick with 630's, then to 850's or 1000's and so on
> 
> i personally am running ID1000's with a Bosch044 in a surge tank, an adjustable FPR, and running lugtronic management in a 1.8T MK3


The ID's are very nice injectors. The community is moving away from the siemans/Deka injectors and moving toward ev14's, ID's, and Genesis injectors.

Those siemans have a terrible spray pattern for the 5 valve heads.


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

So, in conclusion are most of you thinking i"m somewhere in the 200hp realm? is so this is me


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> So, in conclusion are most of you thinking i"m somewhere in the 200hp realm? is so this is me


Oh yea; easily. 250wheel wouldn't surprise me.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The 30r will max out the 42lb injectors easily. Hell, a 28Rs could....


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The 30r will max out the 42lb injectors easily. Hell, a 28Rs could....


My sentiments exactly. I couldn't rationally see running anything less than 630's or 550's @ 4 bar MINIMUM


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Rod Ratio said:


> The ID's are very nice injectors. The community is moving away from the siemans/Deka injectors and moving toward ev14's, ID's, and Genesis injectors.
> 
> Those siemans have a terrible spray pattern for the 5 valve heads.


oh yes...my fueling will be bullet proof to say the least. i made it so that i will have the fueling for most anything, for more power i just need to change the turbo, and prob up the wastegate from a 38-44


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

zoidmk5 said:


> oh yes...my fueling will be bullet proof to say the least. i made it so that i will have the fueling for most anything, for more power i just need to change the turbo, and prob up the wastegate from a 38-44


Why would you arbitrarily 'up' the size of the wastegate; unless you're having difficulty controlling boost?


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Rod Ratio said:


> Why would you arbitrarily 'up' the size of the wastegate; unless you're having difficulty controlling boost?


not saying i would have to, just saying that in the quest for more power, those are the only 2 things i would need to change, unless of course i switched from a T3-T4, then i would just make a whole nothing custom tubular manifold...and i really don't wanna do that hahaha


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

zoidmk5 said:


> not saying i would have to, just saying that in the quest for more power, those are the only 2 things i would need to change, unless of course i switched from a T3-T4, then i would just make a whole nothing custom tubular manifold...and i really don't wanna do that hahaha


That's not how wastegates work. You only need to run a larger wastegate IF you are trying to run LOWER boost levels, OR you have trouble controlling boost.

higher boost requires the wastegate to do LESS not more.

A larger wastegate is not an upgrade generally. It's used when boost creep is unavoidable any other way, and/or you are trying to run a monster turbo at a very low boost level.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

zoidmk5 said:


> NO!!! go Lugtronic, trust me


While there is nothing wrong with Lugtronic, MS is an equally good system especially the MS3/3X. It's also cheaper and if you build it yourself you can learn a TON about engine management.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Prof315 said:


> While there is nothing wrong with Lugtronic, MS is an equally good system especially the MS3/3X. It's also cheaper and if you build it yourself you can learn a TON about engine management.


I don't see what soldering circuits together has to to with learning about engine management. I mean; if you happen to already be very savvy with a soldering iron, heat sinks, and the like; sure go for it.

Recommending MS to the average person, is like telling someone who's never picked up a hammer before to build their first house themselves; because it'll save them money.

Not the best idea, generally..


Go look through the classifieds, and COUNT how many incomplete projects on MS are for sale. There's a ton, and many don't even run. 

Now why do you think that is?


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

stock evo8 makes low 215-230awhp at ~3200lbs...... I'd guess your 8v ~2800lbs is making about the same power..... 250whp car would spank it, so def not that much power.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

There's alot of misinformation & confusion in this thread.

Lets start off with the Xflow/counter flow thing...
It was asked if there's a difference. Xflow outflows the counterflow head which is what you want. I'd ditch the 1.8 all together & shoot for a full ABA for many reasons. More displacement. Smoother running engine. Your not running outdated technology. Chip tuning is much easier & wide range of it (i.e. custom chip from C2 or UM). Overall much better base to start off with.


That turbo is to big. You don't have the rpm band to fully wake that turbo up. You're suppose to match up your turbo around the engine. GT30 sounds good but in all realty might not be the best choice.

As far as fuelling...i wouldn't go past 42lb. If you plan on bumping them up, i suggest a built engine. Forge crank don't mean sh*t when the pistons go....or the rod bearing go. (early ABA have forge crank too).



People need to stop throwing parts together & expect big numbers & it last long. In the end you're gonna be throwing money at wasted parts. Do your homework. What turbo would compliment my setup? What turbo is right for the powerband i have now? What cam would extend or make up the loss in TQ i get from using a SRI? What injectors will give me enough juice for my Hp goals? Lemme check around to see what others are using... I could go on. I've been at this game for almost 20 yrs & it still took me 4 months to put together a proper setup for my needs. Like assuming you need to upgrade the wastegate when you don't have to. That shows you need to search around.

FTW, i did the 8v turbo thing....









ABA 2.0L
Stage 3 TT ported head
Fully built bottom end
42lb injectors
T3 Super 60 w/ stage 3 guts


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Rod Ratio said:


> I don't see what soldering circuits together has to to with learning about engine management. I mean; if you happen to already be very savvy with a soldering iron, heat sinks, and the like; sure go for it.
> 
> Recommending MS to the average person, is like telling someone who's never picked up a hammer before to build their first house themselves; because it'll save them money.
> 
> ...


Never built a Megasquirt have you? If you follow the step by step instructions you learn a TON about management. First you build the power circuits then clock circuits then input etc etc....
Also even a prebuilt MS unit is cheaper than Lugtronic and it's been proven that the ignition control algorithms MS2 and MS3 use are the best in the industry. 

Is MS for everyone? No it requires some patience and a willingness and interest to learn about both electronics and how modern cars actually work. And believe me it can definitely be frustrating. But there are few things more rewarding to a true gear head than being able to say, I built the motor, the ECU, installed and wired the whole mess, tuned it myself and it HAULS A$$!


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> There's alot of misinformation & confusion in this thread.
> 
> Lets start off with the Xflow/counter flow thing...
> It was asked if there's a difference. Xflow outflows the counterflow head which is what you want. I'd ditch the 1.8 all together & shoot for a full ABA for many reasons. More displacement. Smoother running engine. Your not running outdated technology. Chip tuning is much easier & wide range of it (i.e. custom chip from C2 or UM). Overall much better base to start off with.
> ...


thanks for the info Dreads. First i'd like to state that you're vrt mk2 is absolutely amazing. second i'd like to say i love the powerband i have with this setup. i hit full boost (15psi) by 3500 rpm and it holds all the way to 6800rpm,which is fine for my needs. i do believe that this turbo would be a better suit for a built 16vt but it'll do for now on my counterflow setup until i build a 16vt,(I'm broke lol). thanks for stopping by though it's an honor to have a member of your level take time to give us all useful info. :beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

opcorn:opcorn:


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> opcorn:opcorn:


Q, what would be your guestimation for power output from this setup?

that's all i was ever inquiring to find out- what the experienced comunity woud guess my hp to be.

thanks for all the info though from those who contributed. :beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

ACPARTSGUY said:


> Q, what would be your guestimation for power output from this setup?
> 
> that's all i was ever inquiring to find out- what the experienced comunity woud guess my hp to be.
> 
> thanks for all the info though from those who contributed. :beer:


 225~250whp


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> 225~250whp


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## ACPARTSGUY (Jan 13, 2011)

this is the engine just for syts n gigs


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## bytjyufdvfd (Apr 1, 2013)

Recommending MS to the average person, is like telling someone who's never picked up a hammer before to build their first house themselves; because it'll save them money.

Not the best idea, generally..
















Discount Michael Kors
Michael Kors Shoulder Bags
Michael Kors Totes


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

bytjyufdvfd said:


> Recommending MS to the average person, is like telling someone who's never picked up a hammer before to build their first house themselves; because it'll save them money.
> 
> Not the best idea, generally..
> 
> ...


Oh BS....You just need to be willing to do a bunch of reading and actually LEARN something. MS isn't rocket science just basic electronics and automotive wiring.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Prof315 said:


> Oh BS....You just need to be willing to do a bunch of reading and actually LEARN something. MS isn't rocket science just basic electronics and automotive wiring.


Good; then go build another one, and pat yourself on the back.

Want me to skim through the forums, and post all the builds that got scrapped, because owners got fed up with fukcing with that ecu? There's just as many who've dumped MS, and went back to factory ecu, and/or other standalone systems.

It's not for everyone..


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Rod Ratio said:


> Good; then go build another one, and pat yourself on the back.
> 
> Want me to skim through the forums, and post all the builds that got scrapped, because owners got fed up with fukcing with that ecu? There's just as many who've dumped MS, and went back to factory ecu, and/or other standalone systems.
> 
> It's not for everyone..


No MS isn't for everyone just as I stated several posts ago. It has however evolved tremendously in the last several years. Most of the posts you are referring to are OLD.


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I'm on my second conversion from CIS to Megasquirt plus turbo. First was a 2.0 16v, this time a 1.8 8v. Yes I don't think its for everyone, but a prebuilt ecu plus the wiring harness is cheaper than getting a Mk4 chipped on sale. The hardware is robust and there is a huge online community of support. I didn't know a damn thing when I wired up my first car. When I almost gave up I started reading the manual for it and it was all right there in plain English for me. That was in 2007. Things have advanced by leaps and bounds since then with the tuning. After going through some settings to get the car to fire up the first time and you want to be lazy, you can just set up an AFR target table and leave your laptop plugged in while you drive around, and it will fully tune the car to probably about 95% of where you need to be.

OP I would agree that you are making probably around 250-260 crank ~ 215-220 whp


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## Fabriccio (May 30, 2010)

watching this.


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## mak92vwjetta (Jun 20, 2012)

ive been searching for 1.8 8v turbo set up info for seems like forever if you can help me with a list of parts i will need to make this happen please do i am going to grab a garret t3 tonight and just need a list i soon will have to do flywheel and clutch and figured i might as well slap one on while i got it out any and all help appreciated also looking to do a super60 with the 1.6td manifold turbo and downpipe and that t3 mentioned above links to threads are helpful as well thanks


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

ACPARTSGUY said:


>


I'd suggest to check your setup with this calculator: http://www.motorgeek.com/?fullpage=true&page=flowcalc
For your 8V I'd use 0.8-0.85 VE and 0.55 - 0.6 BSFC at max power. Here you'll have also needed inj.flow at preferred %DC. Enjoy!


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