# larger injectors at 500-600 ps



## audifun (Oct 30, 2009)

Hello to all, in advance sorry for my English, is looking for more efficient injectors for my Tfsi, has already tested the injectors with the RS6, and I know that they are less efficient than the RS4, someone has already tested the injectors with the Audi TT RS 2.5 TFSI? Or someone recommend me a company what to sell me a powerful injector. Bosch motorsport are too expensive.Thnx.


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

Good question. S3 injectors have a higher flow rate than RS4 injectors, but RS4 injector are commonly used on high performance engines. I would also like to know if there is a alternative for the S3 injectors, besides Bosch or RS4 injectors?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (sock)*

pretty sure RS4 flow more... hence people using them for BT.
hasnt this been talked about before?


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

@Krieger: I have tested the RS4 and S3 injector on a ASNU GDI and the RS4 doesn't flow more than an S3 injector. Also, the spray pattern is very different. But you are alright, this has been talked about before...Aren't there any other options for injectors (besides Bosch)?


_Modified by sock at 11:49 PM 11-2-2009_


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## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: (sock)*

You have tested it yourself or have you seen a picture from AWE tuning ?
....and there are no more options available!...


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

AFAIK ASNU recommends testing DI injectors using a fuel pressure of just 5 bar.
Any characteristic of any injector can only be judged when run in the operational fuel pressure, which in our cases is 130 bar.
I can't begin to imagine spray pattern and fuel quantity delivered at 130 bar as opposed to 5 bar for bench testing.
Not that i support the use of RS4 injectors, but testing must be done properly to decide and claim something is valid or not.


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

@Hendrik: I tested it myself on a ASNU GDI, the same AWE Tuning used. 
@GolfRS:You are correct, we have tested it at 2,5 and 5 bar. We couldn't test it with more than 8 bar because the fuses inside the ASNU failed. I couldn't find a test bench (brand) that could peform the test with 130 bar. But if I remember correct, AWE Tuning verified there results with Hitachi (fabricator of RS4 injectors) and they said there (calculated) results were correct. 


_Modified by sock at 7:34 AM 11-3-2009_


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## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: (sock)*

Why does nobody shoots a f**** E-Mail to AWE.








It sounds unrealistic that these results are valid.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (sock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sock* »_
@GolfRS:You are correct, we have tested it at 2,5 and 5 bar. We couldn't test it with more than 8 bar because the fuses inside the ASNU failed. I couldn't find a test bench (brand) that could peform the test with 130 bar. But if I remember correct, AWE Tuning verified there results with Hitachi (fabricator of RS4 injectors) and they said there (calculated) results were correct. 



I really don't know if a company like Hitachi would share numbers like that with a "tuning" company like AWE (unless of course they have an "inside man" of sorts ), but if you think about it, its pretty obvious Hitachi would have those numbers for S3 and Gti injectors (even though TFSI operates at 110 bar and not 130, but hey they must do some stress testing right ?), but why have them for RS4's ??
Haven't the slightest at what fuel pressure the RS4 is operating at, but i would thing the operational requirements of 1 RS4 cylinder are much less than those of 1 cylinder of a GT3071R-ed TFSI.


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## audifun (Oct 30, 2009)

Help find a large injections, it was a pity that I could not be used to fit the part: 
Garett 3082, Tial 44MM V-band Wastegate, Tial Cast Stainless Steel Turbine Housings, 2.0T FSI Integrated Engineering Rods, JE 92.8MM BORE 83MM STROKE 8.5:1 CR 2.0T FSI Piston Set, Forge DV, APR HPFP, the second fuel pump Bosch 44, The engine will be ready for pressure of 2 bar


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

The Rs4 injectors flow more, bottom line.
I've even spoken to ASNU about the results and they don't believe they are correct based on testing we have done in cars maxing out each stock, S3, and RS4 injectors.
You can make more power on RS4 injectors then you can on S3 injectors.. only way to do that is more fuel.


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## audifun (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

May have used injections of the Audi TT RS 2.5 TFSI, maybe they are more efficient and better than the RS4


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

@Hendrik: I already contacted AWE with my results.
@Revo: Can you explain to me how a injector that flows less (RS4) than an S3 injector with 5 bar, suddenly flows more then the S3 injector with 110 or 130 bar? The difference was quite big, the RS4 flows the same as a 200hp TFSI. We also did a simulation test with high rpm and short injection time (about 2ms) and the difference stayed the same.


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## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (sock)*
























The subject of rs4 injectors is very important for the future of big turbo tfsi


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (sock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sock* »_@Hendrik: I already contacted AWE with my results.
@Revo: Can you explain to me how a injector that flows less (RS4) than an S3 injector with 5 bar, suddenly flows more then the S3 injector with 110 or 130 bar? The difference was quite big, the RS4 flows the same as a 200hp TFSI. We also did a simulation test with high rpm and short injection time (about 2ms) and the difference stayed the same. 

They don't flow the same end of story
You can make just shy of 300whp on stock injectors and over 400whp on RS4 injectors
THEY DO NOT FLOW THE SAME!!!
Even the manufacture of the test equipment said the results must be wrong.


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

@Chris: With what kind of setup en A/F ratio's was this?


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

Yesterday I went to the Professional Motorsport World Expo in Germany. And I talked with a injector specialist of Bosch Motorsport. I told him I was searching for bigger injectors for 2 ltr T-FSI. He told me that the change I'll find a stock (original VAG, like RS4) injector which will work properly on the 2 ltr T-FSI engine is very small. He said flow rate is not only important, also spray pattern and angle. And therefore, I only could replace the stock 2 ltr T-FSI injector, if I can find injectors with the same spray pattern and angle. 
He also told me the Bosch Motorsport injectors cost 1400 euro.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (sock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sock* »_Yesterday I went to the Professional Motorsport World Expo in Germany. And I talked with a injector specialist of Bosch Motorsport. I told him I was searching for bigger injectors for 2 ltr T-FSI. He told me that the change I'll find a stock (original VAG, like RS4) injector which will work properly on the 2 ltr T-FSI engine is very small. He said flow rate is not only important, also spray pattern and angle. And therefore, I only could replace the stock 2 ltr T-FSI injector, if I can find injectors with the same spray pattern and angle. 
He also told me the Bosch Motorsport injectors cost 1400 euro. 

And did you ask him about the difference in flow between the RS4 and the S3 injectors ??
If so, did he believe the results on the stand test machine are false ??


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

I haven't asked him that, the Bosch stand was very busy. 
But in the injector test on the ASNU I saw big differences in spray pattern and angle between RS4 and S3 injectors. We had all the injectors with the plug facing forward and the S3 and 200 hp TFSI injectors sprayed against the window and the RS4 straight down. And the spray shape of the S3 and 200hp injector had a wide angle and fine mist, whilst the RS4 had a much smaller angle and more concentrades spray (not a mist).


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## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (sock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sock* »_
But in the injector test on the ASNU I saw big differences in spray pattern and angle between RS4 and S3 injectors. We had all the injectors with the plug facing forward and the S3 and 200 hp TFSI injectors sprayed against the window and the RS4 straight down. And the spray shape of the S3 and 200hp injector had a wide angle and fine mist, whilst the RS4 had a much smaller angle and more concentrades spray (not a mist). 























From this we can understand that there is very big difference between s3 and rs4 injectors with low rail pressure. 
Is it possible to have reduction of this difference in injectors spray pattern with high rail pressure? Does anyone know for sure or we are all guessing?


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't think the spray pattern is gonna change much with higher pressure. But that's how I think about it.


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## ndifadvokit (Nov 20, 2008)

*Re: (sock)*

you're being forewarned that i'm a very result minded person. Now, what is the highest power car that someone has been able to get with S3 injectors vs. RS4 injectors? All i've seen at this point is that all the higher hp applications have been using RS4 injectors.
For the sake of argument, there are only really three possibilities here then. Either nobody knows how to tune with S3 injectors, the RS4 injectors truly do flow more, or the RS4s run on magic.
I think we can pretty easily rule out the first possibility as people have been tuning this motor for a while now. And honestly, if you cannot accept the fact that RS4 injectors actually flow more and would rather attribute their success to magical powers, then what does it matter?
Whether by flowing more or by tapping into magical power reserves you can make more power with RS4 injectors than with S3 injectors. So in the end who cares which one flows more? Is your goal to have the highest flowing injectors or the fastest car?


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## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (ndifadvokit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ndifadvokit* »_you're being forewarned that i'm a very result minded person. Now, what is the highest power car that someone has been able to get with S3 injectors vs. RS4 injectors? All i've seen at this point is that all the higher hp applications have been using RS4 injectors.
For the sake of argument, there are only really three possibilities here then. Either nobody knows how to tune with S3 injectors, the RS4 injectors truly do flow more, or the RS4s run on magic.
I think we can pretty easily rule out the first possibility as people have been tuning this motor for a while now. And honestly, if you cannot accept the fact that RS4 injectors actually flow more and would rather attribute their success to magical powers, then what does it matter?
Whether by flowing more or by tapping into magical power reserves you can make more power with RS4 injectors than with S3 injectors. So in the end who cares which one flows more? Is your goal to have the highest flowing injectors or the fastest car?









I can see your point and most probably you are right, but are they safe in the long run?
Maybe rs4 injectors can give you the power or the fuel supply that you want but if their spray pattern is wrong then maybe there is a small chance of cylinder damage, especially with stock internals








Of course my experience is zero and I am not trying to say something bad, I am just trying to learn...


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## notvag_killer (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (sock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sock* »_
He also told me the Bosch Motorsport injectors cost 1400 euro. 

1400 euro the set or the one?

_Modified by notvag_killer at 3:39 PM 11-8-2009_


_Modified by notvag_killer at 3:39 PM 11-8-2009_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (notvag_killer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *notvag_killer* »_
1400 euro the set or the one?

_Modified by notvag_killer at 3:39 PM 11-8-2009_

_Modified by notvag_killer at 3:39 PM 11-8-2009_
 
For one LOL 
I heard there suppose to be OE injector supplier ready too make BT DI injectors in 2010 , will have too see if it really happens or is vapor where LOL








Bob.G


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
For one LOL 
I heard there suppose to be OE injector supplier ready too make BT DI injectors in 2010 , will have too see if it really happens or is vapor where LOL







Bob.G


should be interesting to see... still would like to see a proper LP solution... unless i am blind...


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## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (yvrnycracer)*

when ordering 100 injectors bosch told me about 760 Euro + VAT








For 500 or thousand it is cheaper again...
and who will make new BT DI injectors 2010 =?


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

@Seattheodore: I was thinking the same, is it really safe. Aren't RS4 injector users running to lean mixtures? 
@Hendrik: The Bosch Motorsport guy told me before you purchase the injectors, they at first had to develop the injector (spray pattern, angle) for your specific engine and setup. You can't just buy one off the shelf.


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## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: (sock)*

Yes of course...there is no off the self action possible








So we have to pay once 2000 Euro + Vat for development once! (I thought I already mentioned this in another thread..)
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## audifun (Oct 30, 2009)

hello, I bought one injection of the Audi 2.5 TFSI ttrs and I will tell you that it's quite another injection, have 5 holes from which flies the fuel.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Hendrik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hendrik* »_Why does nobody shoots a f**** E-Mail to AWE.








It sounds unrealistic that these results are valid.


AWE's results are not valid. They are wrong. Their testing method and data extrapolation process was not valid. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Haven't the slightest at what fuel pressure the RS4 is operating at, but i would thing the operational requirements of 1 RS4 cylinder are much less than those of 1 cylinder of a GT3071R-ed TFSI.


Maximum Rail on an RS4 can be configured higher than a 2.0T FSI. 
The reason the RS4 has large injectors is because it's a high output engine with a very high 8250rpm redline. Due to the higher fuel demand and short window of injection time near redline, injectors are larger than what most would imagine an 8cyl would need.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sock* »_AWE Tuning verified there results with Hitachi (fabricator of RS4 injectors) and they said there (calculated) results were correct.

One of three things could have happen here:
1. Hitachi gave them the wrong information. 
2. Hitachi confirmed the flow rate at 5 bar (as seen on awe's testing machine) was the same as they see, so AWE assumed their calculations were correct. (they weren't)
3. AWE lied. 

_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_I really don't know if a company like Hitachi would share numbers like that with a "tuning" company

You'd be surprised what some big name companies will share with some of the companies out there. 
Note *SOME* and *SOME*... not *SOME* and *ALL* or *ALL* and *ALL*.










_Modified by [email protected] at 6:08 PM 11-18-2009_


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## Sloth (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Would more rail pressure using S3 injectors be a good compromise via adding the higher pressure fuel rail pressure valve from an RS4 ?


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## sock (Oct 11, 2009)

@Arin: I also tested the RS4 and S3 injector on the ASNU with high rpm (7200 rpm) and short injection times (2ms and 4 ms). The difference between the to stayed the same.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (audifun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audifun* »_hello, I bought one injection of the Audi 2.5 TFSI ttrs and I will tell you that it's quite another injection, have 5 holes from which flies the fuel.

I haven't seen one in person yet, does it even fit the med9 2.0ts?
have a pic?


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## audifun (Oct 30, 2009)

http://sdauto.sd.funpic.de/Son...0.JPG


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (audifun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audifun* »_http://sdauto.sd.funpic.de/Son...0.JPG

Lets compare the two







Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

That's the injector style found in the TSI engines.


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

RS4 / R8 as comparison










_Modified by dspl1236 at 5:03 PM 11-22-2009_


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