# Still Missing



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Still Misfiring*

Got the new 3.0L vrt broken in finally and had a little fun at 10psi tonight. 2 Pulls later I got a blinking check engine light.
I know its related to missfires. Question is, wtf!







New coil pack, new Magnacore plug wires, new plugs. Why am I getting a random multiple misfire?
Could it be because its running too lean, causing detonation and then causing the missfire code? I'm on C2's newest 42# software. Only thing I didnt change in the whole build were the injectors. They've been on the car for about 15k or so. Could they be clogged and causing all of this?
Would it be worth pulling them and having them flow tested / cleaned? I'm going to pull the codes tomorrow at work to see what cylinder is missing.
Scott
Edit: We pulled the plugs earlier today to find that they were white on all the cylinders, but #2. HELP!


_Modified by flatsix02 at 9:17 AM 1-2-2008_


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: Still Missing (flatsix02)*

did you check your gap?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Gapped the new plugs to .028 as per what about every person I've found gapped them to.
I don't think it has anything to do with gap.


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## MKippen (Nov 6, 2000)

*Re: Still Misfiring (flatsix02)*

If you spent all that money getting a 3.0 Liter block, Turbo, C2 management, and all that, then this should be STANDARD equipment on your "install prior to driving list"!!!
http://www.20squared.com/catal...0413a








$200 later, and there is no speculation on what your car is doing.


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

.028 is too much.
you need to bring them all down to .022 and then give it a shot.
the factory coilpack just doesnt put out enough juice for 10psi.
you'll be much happier with the gap down at .022.
i run mine there. everyone i know runs theirs at .022 also.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm going to a dyno on tuesday and have the car pulled from 10psi to about 22psi in like 5psi steps. They have a wideband on the dyno that they'll use. I will be buying a wideband shortly, just a little short on funds from christmas.
Even if I gap the plugs tighter, will this solve the missfire, or am I looking at a bigger issue like injectors or detonation? Also, is .022 a good gap up to 22psi, or would I need to go even tighter?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_.028 is too much.


BS. 
small gap sucks for performance, and is just a band-aid covering up a problem that exists somewhere else.


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: Still Misfiring (flatsix02)*

If your using my old magnacores, double check they are all the way on... random misfires are kinda "normal". I'm not sure if Jeff(C2) adjusted the dwell on the new chips, if he did the gap shouldnt be an issuse. Im running NGK BKR7E's and haven had any problems...
If you get bored, pull one injector at a time and stick in in a glass jar, run the output test and see what the flow looks like.
Im home until Friday, but it's too dammed cold out to play.....


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I bought a new set of magnacores for the motor. My chip is only like 3 months old, so I wouldn't think that would be an issue. I put in a fresh set of BKR7E's with the motor.
I'll try the injector output test tonight at work as I'll be here till 9 anyways.
What about my plugs still being white?


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## toy_vw (Feb 11, 2006)

how do you run an injector output test...feed it a 12v source with ground?


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (toy_vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *toy_vw* »_how do you run an injector output test...feed it a 12v source with ground?


With a Vag-com


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## Ohio Brian (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: (mikebobelak)*

Do you feel the misfires, or is the light just flashing? Front O2 sensor plugged in or not?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I don't feel the missfires, just the blinking light.
Front 02 plugged in.
Codes said Random Multiple misfires on 3,5,6
w.t.f.
Could I be too lean and be causing this? All my fueling seems good. Esp for just 10 psi.


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Sounds to me like its running of the chip "map" like its missing a sensor, T/Body, Maf, O2,..... Anything comming up on scans? Mt S/c did this all the time due to not haveing the 02 plugged in....


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Nothing else is coming up on the scans, and I even did a full system just to be sure.
Front 02 is connected, and I don't have a rear 02.
I know all the sensors are good, because it drives great. Doesn't give a hiccup other than when in boost.
I layed into it again tonight 2 times for a good 3rd gear pull and got no cel at 10psi. Whatever is causing the random missfires is def. well, random.
I want to turn the boost up, but to be honest, I'm scared to. I had it up to 16psi the other day and it was making that 2 step kind of sound. I need to gap the plugs tighter for that much boost.


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## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: Still Misfiring (flatsix02)*

gap the plugs to .022 then see if it flashes, the coilpack especially if its cracked needs a lot of voltage due to the high cylinder pressures seen at full boost and may be blowing out the spark with too big of a gap. 
check your coil pack over for cracks then look into the MSD coilpack conversion in the 12v forum, it will allow you to open up the gaps much larger than the stock coil will allow.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

0.022" is a bit small. It won't give a good burn off boost.
I run 0.030" (BKR7E) with my stock coilpack at 11psi no problem.
Have you guys run a coil test to see how strong the spark is from the Stock pack? 
You might be surprised.


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## sinisterh22a (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: Still Misfiring (flatsix02)*

i had a almost the same problem, no matter what boost my check engine light would flash. if i was at 14psi or 24... and it was only happening after 4500 rpms and after my first pull.. i ended up change valve springs in case i was getting valve float, but i believe jeff will tell you to log your car, also check your knock sensors..


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Coil pack is new, so I know it's good.
I used the vag tool at work to log knock and I'm not getting any at all. I stepped on it a few times to be sure.
I was thinking of going down to at least .024 because it just doesnt really want to boost past about 13psi. It gives me a 2 step kind of sound and I know the plugs need to be regapped. I think with the gap I have now (.028), over about 13psi it's just blowing out the spark.
I'm going to dyno the car next week and check my A/F's to make sure everything is safe before I start turning up the boost.


_Modified by flatsix02 at 9:17 AM 1-3-2008_


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Going to gap the plugs tonight and see if that makes a difference. I'm thinking that it's blowing out spark and causing the random misfire codes.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

may also be a maf senser.... buddy of mine was having the same problem... swapped the maf and its gone now....


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Still Misfiring (flatsix02)*

check the IAT too.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_may also be a maf senser.... buddy of mine was having the same problem... swapped the maf and its gone now....

Agreed Maf will ruin your day...it may be seem good...but slow to react which is death for boost...can you say slamming into a brick wall fuel and timing cut....that and knock sensors ..compair map timing VS actual timing..look for big differences....as thats' a timing pull from the knock sensors'


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

So.... went to the dyno yesterday. I'm the exact opposite of rich.
10psi from 3k, layed into boost and before he could hit above 4k rpms, my A/F's sky rocketed to 15 : 1. That was the end of my dyno day.
Stupid lean, now what?
It's not the MAF, it's new.
The guy who pulled my car said it's the tune. Everything else on the car is good. Could it be that C2 sent me a bad file?
Chris? Jeff?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_
It's not the MAF, it's new.
The guy who pulled my car said it's the tune. Everything else on the car is good. Could it be that C2 sent me a bad file?


you have no idea if its the maf or not. you need to datalog the maf and other sensor readings. I'm willing to bet that your maf loads are out of whack.


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## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

1. how are u going to diagnose this now that it's not ona dyno anymore.
2. have you tried a different maf? just b/c its new doesn't mean something didnt happen to it.
3. u have any leaks in your system ?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

1. Go back to the dyno. I'm friends with the guy who owns the place.
2. I have tried a different MAF, multiple MAF's at that. Car runs good ALL the time, except under boost
3. No leaks. Been over everything. 18 vaccume under idle. 
All my sensors are new, to say the least. I just got done rebuilding the whole motor bottom up.
Would going to a 3.0L from a 2.8L cause the car to run lean because of the larger displacement?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_
Would going to a 3.0L from a 2.8L cause the car to run lean because of the larger displacement?

no.
datalog your basic sensors.
what are the specs of your maf housing? how long is it?


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

If your plug wires are too close to each other they can easily misfire from picking up interference from each other. Spread them out and see what that does.


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*

O.K. 
T/body has some heat damage from the previous install, T/body works fine , but will not show full throttle on Vag-com.
Maf was reading a small amount of air flow even with the engine off, reading does go up/down as normal.
What reading "flow" should we see say at 7psi.
Think the maf may have gone "flat" and not reading enough flow?


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## lilnick (Feb 15, 2005)

*Re: (mikebobelak)*

do you have an inline fuel pump?


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (lilnick)*

Yes he does, fuel pressure does not seem to be an issue ~40psi at idle, and rises to ~60psi at boost onset... A/F goes lean under boost,but fuel pressure is constant


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (mikebobelak)*

whats your maf reading at idle?


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## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

if its reading 15:1 in boost your pistons would be half melted with cracked ring lands by now... and i highly doubt it would even pull at all that lean in boost or running that lean period while pulling. i know most of the sniffers on dynos are not that accurate from experience.
the only real way to tell anything is to get an AEM wideband ASAP to see whats really going on. you should be reading ~11.5:1 to just under 12:1 in high boost. im not sure what C2 runs but thats what i run on standalone.
as far as the MAFs go i cant really help you there.... i look at them funny and toss them across the room. to be on the safe side i would park the car until you get a AEM and check it out. would suck to see that 3L block go bad. a leak before the 02 sensor for the sniffer on the dyno will also cause it to read inaccurate.
hope you get it figured out soon


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Wideband was stuck in the catback, it's very accurate. It's been used to tune a lot of cars and I personally have witnessed it. Exhaust is not leaking at all. It's running a turndown over the axle.
As soon as it went lean, he let off it. Car isn't going to break anything just in one pull. I havn't boosted since then because I know it's not safe. I'm not wasting my money on an AEM eugo when I already know what's going on.
I unplugged the MAF and had the car fire right up with just the TPS sensor connected. I'm going to try the other way here at lunch and I'll post back with results.
I do remember that VAG said the maf was reading 2 g/s +/- airflow with the car off. Weird thing is, car runs PERFECT outside of boost.
Pistons are forged CP's, 83mm bore w/ skirt coat and 8.5:1 compression.
edit: MAF reading at idle was roughly 3.xx g/s +/- from what I can remember.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Update:
Car fired with TPS unplugged and MAF plugged in. Had to keep my foot on it for about 30 seconds till it got a little heat in the motor. After that, it idled ... almost perfect. Vac sat at 19ish the whole time, and car idled roughly between 700 and 800 with vary little variation. Nothing major at all. Cleaned the maf last night with CRC cleaner and made no difference.
Now what? Ideas? anyone?


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## SP00LD0NU (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

gap the plugs man. .022 is the magic number http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Gabe. (Apr 29, 2004)

*Re: (SP00LD0NU)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SP00LD0NU* »_gap the plugs man. .022 is the magic number http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


definitely regap the plugs to somewhere between .022-.024


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (SP00LD0NU)*

Spark is not the problem , its not getting fuel!!!!!!!! If it was blowing the spark out it would be pig rich, not leaned out ! Besides the W/G is ~9psi, and breaks up as boost comes on, not up in the revs/under full boost......
Scotty, while your at work recheck all your grounds again, clean the main harness connector again, check the ground under the battery. 
fix the W/G leak if you havent already.....


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I don't know If I can get the w/g leak fixed, but I'll go up and clean the grounds, the main harness connect and check the one under the battery.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Cleaned all the grounds, pulled the battery, cleaned the ground under it. Also cleaned the harness connecter, no difference.
Still turns lean as soon as I hit boost and breaks up.


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## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: (mikebobelak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikebobelak* »_Spark is not the problem , its not getting fuel!!!!!!!! If it was blowing the spark out it would be pig rich, not leaned out ! Besides the W/G is ~9psi, and breaks up as boost comes on, not up in the revs/under full boost......
Scotty, while your at work recheck all your grounds again, clean the main harness connector again, check the ground under the battery. 
fix the W/G leak if you havent already..... 

not really.... if its blowing out the spark a wideband will read dead lean because unburnt oxygen will be present.... its the same concept as if it had a leak in the exhaust which it does not. dont know how much dwell C2 has going to the coilpack but it might be worth trying to close the gap a little more and see if it helps. 
just a thought, and then you could rule that idea out as an option if it doesnt help. ive never ran VR6 coils even when i had a VR6... i converted it over to DSM coilpacks but i was never boosted. and i would personally never boost a car without a wideband... its just to risky. i know C2 makes good stuff but there could be things that go wrong in your fuel sytem not related to the ECU at all.




_Modified by oilpangasket at 7:18 PM 1-16-2008_


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Plugs were regapped to .022, no difference. I think we've got it narrowed down to the MAF, it just has some funky readings under idle. I'm going to grab a new MAF and see what happens.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_ I think we've got it narrowed down to the MAF, it just has some funky readings under idle. I'm going to grab a new MAF and see what happens.

i've been telling you that since your very first post.









i bet its not the maf sensor, but a problem in the design of the maf housing.


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## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

yeah def try another one. a bad maf could cause it to misfire causing it to read lean.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Spent a solid hour on the phone with jeff, logging realtime data under idle, and the maf is just giving some funky readings. I'm going to change that out next week when the new one gets here and hope it makes the car better.
I'll post back with results.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

think i said that awhile ago too...


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I wanted to be 100% before I just went blowing money on parts. The car seemed tooo good outside of boost to be the maf. There's a chance it still may be something else, but I'm getting a new MAF tomorrow from the dealer and will report back with my findings tomorrow night.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

If the mass air doesnt fix it then i bet you have a boost leak. I know most of you are saying no because a boost leak would cause it to run rich, but if it has a leak and is misfiring badly enough. That will cause an o2 sensor to read lean if the fuel is not ignited at all. I had misfire codes. My car was breaking up at 5700, i checked everything multiple times. Then i started back at the begining and found that my throttle body flange was warped on the bottom. My wideband was going from 13.0's-14's when it would break up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: (92g60gti)*

yeah go over all your IC piping and make sure none of the couplers have cracks. since it runs in open loop all the time i dont see what else to could be besides a boost leak confusing the MAF or a bad MAF.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

It does NOT run in an open loop all the time. When the car is full throttle, the 02 control is turned off according to C2. There are no boost leaks, everything is great. I have been over it multiple times.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

maf.


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## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_It does NOT run in an open loop all the time. When the car is full throttle, the 02 control is turned off according to C2. There are no boost leaks, everything is great. I have been over it multiple times.

i think C2 disables the 02 altogether... or at least i know it disables the 02 from not working when you delete the air pump and EGR valve


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (oilpangasket)*

you guys realize you can test most bosch maf's with a volt meter?
or just get ahold of a MAF sensor tester and a tachometer to check the sensors response.....you can do this off of the vehicle just by blowing some air through the MAF


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (oilpangasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oilpangasket* »_
i think C2 disables the 02 altogether... or at least i know it disables the 02 from not working when you delete the air pump and EGR valve

That is true on the older software. However with the newer software which is called the June release i believe, jeff wrote out secondary air pump and downstream o2 sensor. If you have the newest stuff it will run in closed loop with the secondary air pump and downstream o2 sensor disabled. Not even so much as a CEL.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

So...
MAF replaced, still breaking up and running lean. Also replaced a few plug wires that were arcing. Now what? I'm OUT of ideas. Car runs way better out of boost, not nearly as rich... but it still breaks up. I'm so fed up.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

what maf housing are you running?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

4in. from C2 along with their software and green top 42# injectors.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

got any pictures of you setup?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
i've been telling you that since your very first post.









i bet its not the maf sensor, but a problem in the design of the maf housing.

quoting what i've been telling you all along.
I bet you're running a 4" intake housing to the turbo. If thats the case, you'll need to add a flow straightener to get consistent readings.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

I'm having the same problem on my setup since I upgraded to the 42# setup. The car was running fine on the 30# setup, but now it breaks up in boost. 
3.0 L, 8.5:1 forged JE, Walboro inline, zeitronix wideband
The car will occasionally fall on it's face rich @ WOT in boost, like on a back straight. Then a second or two later the CEL starts blinking and I get random misfires on 5+6. For a while it was just on 5+6, but now i'm seeing it on all cylinders. I've tried new plug wires, and swapping MAFs with a much newer one. I'm going to try gapping the plugs down more. Oh, and i'm only running 9psi!
The car feels strong in boost, and the AFRs are OK, a bit too rich. But then the pesky misfires happen. Again, this was only after switching up to the 42# setup. So, I'm watching def watching this thread to see what happens while I try to debug my own setup.
-m


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_I'm having the same problem on my setup since I upgraded to the 42# setup. The car was running fine on the 30# setup, but now it breaks up in boost. 
3.0 L, 8.5:1 forged JE, Walboro inline, zeitronix wideband
The car will occasionally fall on it's face rich @ WOT in boost, like on a back straight. Then a second or two later the CEL starts blinking and I get random misfires on 5+6. For a while it was just on 5+6, but now i'm seeing it on all cylinders. I've tried new plug wires, and swapping MAFs with a much newer one. I'm going to try gapping the plugs down more. Oh, and i'm only running 9psi!
The car feels strong in boost, and the AFRs are OK, a bit too rich. But then the pesky misfires happen. Again, this was only after switching up to the 42# setup. So, I'm watching def watching this thread to see what happens while I try to debug my own setup.
-m

Get another set of plugs because i bet yours are rediculously fouled. gap them at .024. Then take and turn the boost up to 15-16psi and your problem will go away. (only turn it up if you have a walbro inline) When i first put my car together and was breaking it in i was only running 10psi and it was doing the same exact thing. I turned the boost up and it was fine... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Almost garuntee it will be fine.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Cleaned all the grounds, pulled the battery, cleaned the ground under it. Also cleaned the harness connecter, no difference.
Still turns lean as soon as I hit boost and breaks up.

Man i'm telling you, maybe you have checked all the t bolt clamps and tightened them, but that still doesnt mean you dont have a boost leak. Fabricate a pressure tester for the inlet side of the turbo and pressurize it with 16-18psi. Then listen and find your boost leak... I'm pretty confident you will find one.


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## Sureguy (Mar 22, 2000)

*Re: (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_
Get another set of plugs because i bet yours are rediculously fouled. gap them at .024. Then take and turn the boost up to 15-16psi and your problem will go away. (only turn it up if you have a walbro inline) When i first put my car together and was breaking it in i was only running 10psi and it was doing the same exact thing. I turned the boost up and it was fine... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Almost garuntee it will be fine.


The plugs are clean. I was thinking the same thing about turning up the boost. Fuel fouling was my first thought but I yanked the plugs and they are super clean like on the side of lean but the A/F reads otherwise. No detonation so I'm thinking you are right on with the boost level. What are these chips tuned for?


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## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Is your TPS within spec? 
time to add some MSD coils so you can run .045-.055" gaps and not blow them out.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (Sureguy)*

Most people on the 42# setup are running 16-22psi i believe. Depends on what you are running for a turbo, etc. But i had the EXACT same problem when i was breaking my car in. Turn it up and it'll most likely be fine, and a whole lot of fun.
edit: Where that car is a 3L just to be safe i would probably turn it up to 16psi or so depending on what size turbo is on the setup. If it's a decent size turbo, especially being a 3L i doubt you will be able to run 20-22psi. The injectors will probably be at full duty cycle before then.




_Modified by 92g60gti at 1:56 PM 1-22-2008_


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*


_Quote, originally posted by *all-starr-me* »_Is your TPS within spec? 
time to add some MSD coils so you can run .045-.055" gaps and not blow them out.

It is definitely not a bad idea to go to MSD coils by any means, but i would not rely on that to fix the problem. That would only be covering the problem up, or better yet not change anything at all. There are countless cars running the same setup on stock ignition with no problems what so ever if you have the plugs gapped as instructed...


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

To everyones Questions:
It's the kinetics setup for the intake piping, nothing special or big. ID is either 2.5 or 3, can't remember off the top of my head.
Car has always had 42# setup, car also has newest software flash.
I'm not fouling plugs because im running TOO LEAN! I also changed them and regapped to see if it made a difference, no luck.
I have checked everything, there are no leaks, it's a fact.
TPS is within spec.
Car has t3/t4 60 trim. As soon as i hit boost, it breaks up lean, and thats only 9psi!
Like stated, I will not run MSD untill I get this situation figured out, all that would do if anything is bandaid a bigger problem. I'm not doing that and risking trashing a fresh 3.0L.
I'll post back in a few with an engine shot, not sure what that will change?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

My unorganized **** box of an engine bay:


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## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

you didnt happen to extend your maf harness did you? (due to the location of your maf im assuming you didnt)


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Nope. Stock MAF wiring.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

I dunno man but there is no way in hell that thing can be running that lean at only 9psi. I'm pretty sure that WOT is a set map, doesnt use closed loop even on the new software. Just stop messing around and put a wideband in it so you know whats going on, and turn the boost up. I bet you it will "magically" run a million times better.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_I dunno man but there is no way in hell that thing can be running that lean at only 9psi. I'm pretty sure that WOT is a set map, doesnt use closed loop even on the new software. Just stop messing around and put a wideband in it so you know whats going on, and turn the boost up. I bet you it will "magically" run a million times better.

that there is some dumb and bad advise. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

haha magic will fix your car...good info


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I will never turn the boost up until i know for a fact that my A/F's are too lean. I don't need a wideband when I have access to a dyno with a VERY accurate wideband. I've seen lots of cars tuned on that dyno wideband. If it's turning lean and breaking up at 9psi, it'll only get worse with higher boost.
WOT is a set map and uses closed loop according to Jeff Atwood. It does NOT use 02 control during wot.


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
that there is some dumb and bad advise. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Hey pal i was being sarcastic when i said "magic" hence the quotation marks. For being on the tex for as long as you have i thought you might have a clue what it is. There is absolutely no way in hell that car is running lean at 9psi with 42's in it. Which is why i said put a damn wideband in it so he has half a clue. But if he has 40psi of fuel pressure at the rail, and is running 42# software i would bet my life that car is not running lean. $43874732 says that it's running so rich that it's not firing and seems to be breaking up. That software isn't made to be run on only 9psi of boost. And when it's so rich that it cant burn all of the fuel, the fuel that is not being burnt will actually be seen by the o2 sensor as lean (HC's). Let me ask you this, if you only give it 1/4-1/2 throttle does it run a lot better even under boost? We'll see who's right when he mans up and either brings it to a shop, or gets a wideband so he knows whats actually happening. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 



_Modified by 92g60gti at 3:14 PM 1-23-2008_


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_
WOT is a set map and uses closed loop according to Jeff Atwood. It does NOT use 02 control during wot.

which is exactly what i said. so if it's on a set map man then why the hell would it be running lean at only 9psi? it's doing EXACTLY what my car was doing when i first put it together and was running low boost on the 42# file. and as far as the wideband part, i figure that i have probably 8k into my setup so paying $200 for some "insurance" so you can always see whats going on isn't exactly spending money stupidly.


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

between 1/4 and 1/2 throttle in higher rpm's, it runs OK. I've brought it to a known shop here in st. louis and they instantly said its running lean. If it's not running ok at 9psi, it for sure won't run ok at higher boost. I've tried with a mbc. As soon as it goes past 9psi, it starts breaking up even worse. It's not getting enough fuel.
Per Jeff Atwood, the car uses the MAF and TPS to control fueling values in boost. I have gone on the dyno with a wideband connected to the vehicle, and it's running lean. Since changing the maf, I'm going back next week to get a new diagnoses as to what is going on since the new maf.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_
There is absolutely no way in hell that car is running lean at 9psi with 42's in it. 

With one little statement you've proven that you dont have a clue what you're talking about, and that you should not be giving advice in this forum
There are lots of things that will cause it to run lean with 42lb, 60lb, 80lb, etc, etc. 
This whole thread has been about the original poster having MAF issues. HEY GUESS WHAT CONTROLS HOW MUCH FUEL THE INJECTOR ALLOWS THROUGH !!!!!!!!!! Yes, thats right, the MAF sensor. If the Maf sensor isn't reading properly, then you can run lean regardless of injector size (or pig rich with small injectors). The O2 control will try to lean it out when it sees the car running so rich, but it can only scale back 25/30%.


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

TBT-Syncro - Thankyou. The MAF was changed to a new one and the car is still running lean.


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
With one little statement you've proven that you dont have a clue what you're talking about, and that you should not be giving advice in this forum
There are lots of things that will cause it to run lean with 42lb, 60lb, 80lb, etc, etc. 
This whole thread has been about the original poster having MAF issues. HEY GUESS WHAT CONTROLS HOW MUCH FUEL THE INJECTOR ALLOWS THROUGH !!!!!!!!!! Yes, thats right, the MAF sensor. If the Maf sensor isn't reading properly, then you can run lean regardless of injector size (or pig rich with small injectors). The O2 control will try to lean it out when it sees the car running so rich, but it can only scale back 25/30%.

Well if you read the thread he had swapped in other known good maf's before hand, and with NEW one it is still supposedly running lean. And i'm not a ******* idiot pal. Apparently you know everything though, so why dont you go fix it for him. When he data logged it if it were running that lean and the mass air were reading incorrectly. Injector pulsewidth would be way down below normal. and jeff would have seen it seeing he actually knows what he's talking about. So before you go on a caps lock rampage read his actual posts Captain know it all. I would say that jeff would tell by the MAF values if it were even bad seeing when my car was breaking up i sent him a log and he could tell just by the calc. load values that i had a boost leak.


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_TBT-Syncro - Thankyou. The MAF was changed to a new one and the car is still running lean.

Look at that. and he's still supposed running lean. How about for chuckles swap another TB on it to prove that is not bad either. And look there's everything that controls fueling TBT Synchro. Oh wait i'm an idiot, i forgot that you know absolutely nothing on here unless you have >1000posts.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_TBT-Syncro - Thankyou. The MAF was changed to a new one and the car is still running lean.

As i stated in this thread, and the other one. I believe the problem is related to the intake, and not the maf sensor itself. If you datalog the sensor (load and through RPMs), its easy to prove. (this was a major problem on my GT35 setup when it was first built).


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

In an attempt to be more adult here. Just asking, what exactly would be wrong with the intake setup to cause it to read inaccurately. There are plenty of cars running a 4 inch intake with no problems at all. That black mk3 gti, the one Sleepers built is on a t67 or something big with a full 4 inch intake. My buddy is running a 35/40r with absolutely no problem either.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_In an attempt to be more adult here. Just asking, what exactly would be wrong with the intake setup to cause it to read inaccurately. There are plenty of cars running a 4 inch intake with no problems at all. That black mk3 gti, the one Sleepers built is on a t67 or something big with a full 4 inch intake. My buddy is running a 35/40r with absolutely no problem either.

turbulence, causing the MAF to get a bad or inconsistent signal. It's the reason that APR supplies a honeycomb flow straightener with their big turbo kits.
with my setup (4 inch intake,maf, into a 4inch turbo opening), the MAF signal was sending almost double the fuel. By adding the honeycomb to the intake (and a flow straightener post maf), my car immediately idled at 14.7 (was in the 9s, or low 10s prior).


_Modified by TBT-Syncro at 10:38 PM 1-23-2008_


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

oh yea i have a pet unicorn.....


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I don't want to start an argument here. The whole point of this thread was to help diagnose problems as to what is causing the car to run LEAN. I changed the MAF and it still seemed to be running lean, under boost.
92g60gti - That comment was in no way meant to offend you. I agreed with another person over you, it happens. For arguments sake, I did what you wanted me to. I put my mbc back in, turned the boost back up to 16psi, and stepped on it. As soon as i hit boost, it was breaking up, bad. I tried a 2nd time, just as bad if not worse.
It's still running lean without a doubt. I can't even smell anything that would even point the car to being rich. I had someone follow me, and they said they never smelled gas when I got on it.


----------



## VEE-DUBBER (Nov 22, 2000)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

filter on the MAf causing turbulence? i'd think to space it farther away so the air will be smoother running through...I know there are most people not having an issue with this though, but I've heard of it happening in some instances.







wouldn't cost anythibng to try if you have a small piece of 4" straight 


_Modified by VEE-DUBBER at 5:28 AM 1-25-2008_


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Problem is, with my filter and all the intake piping, the filter constantly is touching my intercooler piping. It wouldnt be possible to extend the intake piping. 
Coming to work this morning. I was part thorttle trying to boost as the MBC is set to 16psi roughly. As soon as the boost climbs past 9psi, it starts breaking up badly at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

don't drive it anymore then you have to before you figure the problem out....you'll kill something...


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

The car is perfectly healthy outside of boost. I just dont drive it hard. Motor stays healthy, I just drive like an old man.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_The car is perfectly healthy outside of boost. I just dont drive it hard. Motor stays healthy, I just drive like an old man.

how much vacuum are you seeing while cruising?
what is the A/F ratio while cruising?


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

A/f seems to be on the bit rich side. I did a log with Jeff Atwood with vag com and he said outside of boost, the af's were perfect. When off the throttle, I see 22 vacuum and idle is around 18/19.


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Update!
I pulled the plugs tonight after doing 2 attempted pulls. Good news is, is that none of the plugs are white! Cyl 1,2,5,6 were a goood tan color. Cyl 3 was dark brown, and cyl 4 was a bit lighter than the others, but not bad.
Car doesnt seem to be running lean anymore since the new MAF. Now the car wont stop breaking up under boost, and yes, i've tried turning the boost up.
What next? I replaced the coil pack, plug wires are new. The only thing I can think of is new plugs gapped to ...? Or a new throttle body, simply because the car runs like ASS with the MAF unpluged.


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

.022 is what i have seen most people run for a gap. I have mine at .026 though and it seems fine. My car runs absolutely horrible with the MAF unplugged also, so that's normal. haha. Now that the mass air is working properly, can you maybe do some data logs and send them to jeff? See what he thinks?


_Modified by 92g60gti at 6:20 PM 1-26-2008_


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: (92g60gti)*

lol. I've been trying to get in touch with jeff, no go. Hopefully he'll answer tomorrow so we can do some logs. I'm confused as to what would cause the car to break up so bad. 
I'm going INSANE.







I want to feel what full throttle at 400hp does... this is just not fair anymore.


----------



## Gabe. (Apr 29, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

I fully agree, 400hp sounds like a lot of fun. Let's get this figured out! Have you done a boost leak test yet? Do you know anyone you can switch out chips with?


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I did a boost leak test and found the lower intercooler pipe was leaking a little. Adjusted the clamp and everything is leak free!
Already switched out chips with mikebobelak and it changed nothing. His is a known GOOD 42# setup.


----------



## Gabe. (Apr 29, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

did you switch chips or the whole ecu?


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

ecu


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

The wideband will read lean even if you are actually rich with a misfire. 
How's your alternator? How are your engine grounds? (check both). If you have a weak electrical system that causes a system wide or engine control low voltage condition then your injector dead time will increase and you will run lean. If you put your battery in the trunk then you may be running out of juice with all the demand from the different components as rpm increases and electrical demands increase but supply is limited. 
My recommendations:
1) Thoroughly clean all engine grounds including the gang ground bundle that connects the intake manifold to the cylinder head.
2) Thoroughly clean all engine to chassis and batter to chassis electrical connections. Test the continuity between the engine and chassis to make sure it has no resistance. If you find resistance, try adding an additional ground wire of a lower gauge between the engine and chassis.
3) Test the charging system. 
4) Check the voltage at the fusebox while driving. Put a multimeter on it and have someone watch it while you drive.
If you don't find a low voltage condition or gremlin from the above then:
1) Clean the main engine harness connector at the engine and at the ecu with electrical cleaner. Be sure to let them dry awhile.
2) Check your firing order to make sure you don't a row of the coilpack out of order.















3) Clean your hall and crank sensor connections.
4) Drink cold beer and post results.


----------



## Gabe. (Apr 29, 2004)

when you are going WOT is the voltage the tps sends out actually WOT? So its not saying its at like 85% throttle?
Have you tried running less boost and see what happens?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

DieGTi - I've done just about all of that minus testing the voltage at the fuse box. The crank and cam sensors are new.
Royale10 - I'm not sure, last I saw, we were only getting a reading from vag at 8X% but it was still reading wide open throttle. It just didnt say 100%. Jeff says thats normal. 9psi, it still breaks up.


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_DieGTi - I've done just about all of that minus testing the voltage at the fuse box. The crank and cam sensors are new.
Royale10 - I'm not sure, last I saw, we were only getting a reading from vag at 8X% but it was still reading wide open throttle. It just didnt say 100%. Jeff says thats normal. 9psi, it still breaks up. 

My car only reads 8x% at WOT. Where you have checked and/or replaced pretty much everything it really sounds like a boost leak. haha But where as you have checked for one multiple times and even found one and taken care of it. I honestly have no idea. haha. Have you done a compression test, or leakdown test to confirm everything is ok mechanically? (i.e one of the cams isn't off a tooth when the motor was put together) or something stupid like that.


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm starting to wonder if my tps sensor in the tb is bad. Only because the idle has been acting a bit weird lately, so I'm going to snag a new one of those.. see if it changes anything. I'm getting on a dyno next weeked *I hope* so we can see where the car sits with it's A/f's.
I'm going insane. literally.


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## Gabe. (Apr 29, 2004)

checking the tps is what I would suggest to do next...


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

That's the next step. I'll pick up a new TB at some point this week. I gotta replace the alternator now also. Found today that it's going bad.
BAH. It's only money .... right?
I'll post back when I get a new TB on.


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Can i ask you where you got your new MAF from? If it is aftermarket, that is your problem right there. We have spent numerous hours chasing down similar problems to yours and found that aftermarket MAFs just don't seem to cut it. Go to the dealer.
Beyond that, I think everything else to look for has been covered. There is nothing out of the ordinary with your set up. I hope you get it sorted.

OBTW- we use use full 4" inlets all the time w/out flow straighteners, and Jeff rarely has to do any tweaking.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (cncpete)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cncpete* »_
OBTW- we use use full 4" inlets all the time w/out flow straighteners, and Jeff rarely has to do any tweaking.

i think the problem is only when the 4" inlets are short. If it's long, there should be no turbulence.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

The MAF is from a buddies VR6 12v. We're not 100% sure if it was good, but acording to vag com, it seems to be reading everything correctly. It's an OEM maf.
I'm thinking that the TPS is causing the breakup, that's the only thing else I can think of. If a new TB doesnt fix it, then I'll try mikebobelak's MAF when he gets home and see if it changes anything else after the new TB.
The intake tract is from the kinetics kit. 


_Modified by flatsix02 at 8:56 PM 1-27-2008_


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I've been sitting here thinking, is it possible I have my plugs gapped TO tight since I got the MAF fixed, now it's running better and blowing spark out?
Last gapped to around .024 ish, maybe a tad tighter. Would it be worth opening the gap up to like .028?


----------



## VEE-DUBBER (Nov 22, 2000)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

tighter gaps will reduce the chance of blowing out the spark. your current gap should be fine


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

bah.
I wraped out 4th today on the highway at 9psi, and the car pulled like a rape ape. It had one little hiccup and thats it. I'm really starting to think the TB is messing with everything.


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Same symptoms, similar build update








* Changed plugs to -7's everyone else uses w/ a 022 gap
* Reset the fuel trim's to default (128) and shorted out the ECU to clear any adaptation. Adapted the T/B, let it idle for a few minutes and was off.
* Old plugs looked good except 6 was a little white. I get misfires on 5+6
* Pulls strong in 3rd through 6k RPM but then flashes the CEL for 30 seconds. Scans as random misfires on 4,5,6
* AFR looks really good and flat, starting at around 13.0 going into boost and dipping down to about 11.0. It's rich but very consistent. (zeitronix wideband, logging boost vs AFR vs RPM) 9psi
* Idle is a bit rough. I have cams, but this seems a little rougher than that. 

_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_bah.
I wraped out 4th today on the highway at 9psi, and the car pulled like a rape ape. It had one little hiccup and thats it. I'm really starting to think the TB is messing with everything.

I'm not following how the TPS or T/B would cause your misfires... could you walk me through that one? What misinformation do you think the computer is getting and how is that screwin w/ things?
On mine I'm still thinking that I might have a bad injector at high duty cycle, or maybe a problem with my inline fuel pump setup. Or perhaps there's an electrical problem where the fuel pump or injector or something starts to get starved for juice at high RPM? Car runs fine just get the misfires.








-m


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## magz0r (Jun 27, 2005)

Good luck bud, it sounds like you've gone through quite a lot already with your car. Definitely keep us updated as I hate seeing threads like this just die off without any resolution.


----------



## yasenVRT (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: Still Misfiring (flatsix02)*

42# software....was that .what they told you to use..if that....and your running to lean? what about a size up injectors. or check the chip . thats what happen to my car.. better to run rich then lean any day


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

It's the newest 42# software with bosch green top's. The chip was swapped with MikeBobelak's setup and it changed nothing. It seemed like the MAF made the car a lot more rich, but now the car won't stop breaking up.
The reason I think the TB has something to do with it, is that under wot, the TPS and MAF control the fueling and everything associated. If one's bad, it will rely on the other but may not give a great reading. Its about the only thing I have havnt changed, it's worth a shot!


----------



## J.Q. Public (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Are you using new or used injectors ? If they are used its probably worth sending them out to be cleaned and flowed. I had an issue with a constant miss and crappy running especially and it turned out to be dirty injectors. I sent them out and 3 of the 6 had a bad spray pattern and were like 10% off in flow from the other 3.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

The injectors were new when installed on the car. They have 10k on them, tops. The guy who pulled my car on the dyno (biggest subie guy in the midwest) said that if the injectors were bad or not flowing right, the car would run crappy outside of boost also.


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (J.Q. Public)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J.Q. Public* »_Are you using new or used injectors ? If they are used its probably worth sending them out to be cleaned and flowed. I had an issue with a constant miss and crappy running especially and it turned out to be dirty injectors. I sent them out and 3 of the 6 had a bad spray pattern and were like 10% off in flow from the other 3.


im sending mine out soon too to hope to fix some issues.
bump for resolutions


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

re: injectors
is that something you would notice by doing the output test in vag-com? i was thinking of trying that next.


----------



## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (maxslug)*

i think i now know what you mean about breaking up. 
i did nothing out of the normal to the car recently besides install a kill switch. 
now the issues. its like it hesitates and misfires and then it will take off like its turbo (vrs/c) and boost will kick it and it will go. i didnt change anything before this issue. 
i had the CEL checked cause it stays on solid anyway. the new one is a knock sensor code signal to low or something and rpm something exceed. im gonna go for a drive and have him readapt my throttle body with the 1552 tool and see if it still does it, 
im running the new 42lb software with delphi's for over half a year now and now this issue. this only came on cause i fixed all the little stuff that was wrong with it.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I did a 2nd gear pull just now, and it felt fine. Had a few little hiccups, but that's it. I'm starting to wonder if my gap is not tight enough. This was at 9psi btw. I'm going to close up the gap a little bit more tonight and turn up the boost a little bit, see if it works out.
Only reason I'm thinking it's plug gapping is now that its warmer out *almost 60 degrees* its running better, a lot better. I'm going to go down to .022 tonight and see if it gets better.


----------



## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_I did a 2nd gear pull just now, and it felt fine. Had a few little hiccups, but that's it. I'm starting to wonder if my gap is not tight enough. This was at 9psi btw. I'm going to close up the gap a little bit more tonight and turn up the boost a little bit, see if it works out.
Only reason I'm thinking it's plug gapping is now that its warmer out *almost 60 degrees* its running better, a lot better. I'm going to go down to .022 tonight and see if it gets better.

mine has hiccups, well thats what it feels like. no misfire codes, only the knock sensor code. 
i think my mistake was the car ran fine til i installed one of them intake spacers to keep the intake manifold cool. and it leaked the first time, so i bought 2 gaskets and put one on each side and i think its still leaking for some reason. thank got i got some mk4 knock sensors sitting around.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Just got off the phone with jeff atwood. 
Check plugs, wires and coil pack. It sounds electrical now. I gotta replace my voltage regulator tomorrow on the alternator. I have a feeling it's bad wires *even though they're new*


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

bump for results. not working on mine till the weekend.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (maxslug)*

just pulled my plugs, deffinitly arent white. got some brownish/tanish to them but the ceramic is brownish too, lean would be all white. so i think my issue is this stupid intake spacer.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Update!
Car hadn't been holding a good charge for the last few days, tested the alternator and found that it was bad. Replaced the Voltage regulator today and found that the nubs on the old one were NON EXISTANT. I'm suprised the alternator was even charging anything at that rate.
I'm going to snag a set of good known working oem plug wires later on tonight. The car feels a bit better at 9psi, but now it's just missing here and there under load. I am 100% positive that they are not helping the situation as I caught one of them arching off the head under idle today. Will update later tonight or tomorrow with results with new plug wires.


----------



## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Update!
Car hadn't been holding a good charge for the last few days, tested the alternator and found that it was bad. Replaced the Voltage regulator today and found that the nubs on the old one were NON EXISTANT. I'm suprised the alternator was even charging anything at that rate.
I'm going to snag a set of good known working oem plug wires later on tonight. The car feels a bit better at 9psi, but now it's just missing here and there under load. I am 100% positive that they are not helping the situation as I caught one of them arching off the head under idle today. Will update later tonight or tomorrow with results with new plug wires.

time for a volt guage!


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Update!
Car hadn't been holding a good charge for the last few days, tested the alternator and found that it was bad. Replaced the Voltage regulator today and found that the nubs on the old one were NON EXISTANT. I'm suprised the alternator was even charging anything at that rate.
I'm going to snag a set of good known working oem plug wires later on tonight. The car feels a bit better at 9psi, but now it's just missing here and there under load. I am 100% positive that they are not helping the situation as I caught one of them arching off the head under idle today. Will update later tonight or tomorrow with results with new plug wires.








Low voltage will kill an otherwise well running system.


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Update!
Car hadn't been holding a good charge for the last few days, tested the alternator and found that it was bad. Replaced the Voltage regulator today and found that the nubs on the old one were NON EXISTANT. I'm suprised the alternator was even charging anything at that rate.
I'm going to snag a set of good known working oem plug wires later on tonight. The car feels a bit better at 9psi, but now it's just missing here and there under load. I am 100% positive that they are not helping the situation as I caught one of them arching off the head under idle today. Will update later tonight or tomorrow with results with new plug wires.

and?


----------



## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Still working on getting the plug wires. I'll get the wires tonight and post up the results later or tomorrow. Car feels better than ever at 9psi... I think I'm finally getting it right. Once the car gets the new wires, I'll start turning the boost up.


----------



## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

im gonna have to get some too. luckily i can go down the street and get ones. and borrow a brand new coilpack to rule that out also. after i get the car back from getting 3in exhaust.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

1 thing at a time... it's only money, right?


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_1 thing at a time... it's only money, right?

your talking about adding to the car right?? not trying to figure out the problems.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

1 fix at a time, but to fix things, sometimes you have to buy things ... and it gets expensive.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

yeah. did you find your problem?????


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

update on my end -- pulled the injectors today and sent them over to a local place that cleans and tests them. 
One injector flowed a lot worse than the other 5 after cleaning. (53, 52, 52, 50, 50, 47) but the funny part is it's not on the cylinder I saw the most misfires on! Gonna try some new injectors tomorrow and see what's up.
-m


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

If your injectors flowed ok except for one, don't waste time trying different injectors. After the new MAF and voltage regulator, my car started running way better. I have it down to plug wires I'm pretty sure. I just gotta get ahold of my buddy with other wires and try and see if that fixes the missing problem. Car is getting better, a lot better. It still misses randomly under boost, and I think it's because of arching plug wires.
As soon as I get some new ones on it, I'll post back with an update.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

New Update!
Not good. Got new plug wires, tested with spray bottle too check for arching. Nothing. Went around the block at 9psi, found the car felt strong with only a few little misses on 3 pulls, and of course a 30 sec. blinking cel.







Decided to turn the boost up to see what would happen.
Anything past 10 pounds is stupid. It just coughs and coughs, the blowoff keeps going off along with what sounded like backfires inside the intake or something. The boost gauge flutters rapidly, it's really hard to describe.








I'm beyond frustrated at this point.







I'm going to pull the plugs tomorrow to see what they look like. 
WHAT NOW??!?!?








My next thought was coolant temp sensor and TB because of the TPS sensor. I've changed almost everything else except those. Does the coolant temp sensor effect the car's readings?
scott
edit: If anyone wants a vid, I'll make one tomorrow at 9psi then I'll turn the boost up a bit more so you guys can see what's going on.


_Modified by flatsix02 at 11:44 PM 2-8-2008_


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Update*

Update : New Injectors, turned the boost up to 12 and 15 psi (finally hooked up my elec boost controller). Car pulls great on the street to redline, no CELs. AFR looked great ~11-12 @ WOT.
Took it to the track (Thunderhill) on Friday and it hates partial throttle. Was back to being pig rich on the straights ~9-10 @ WOT, 12psi. It broke up horribly at 15psi. Toward the end of the day it was getting this two step action where it would hesitate as it went through the revs. But I was still pulling on my friend's modified STI







About partial throttle -- if i had to modulate the throttle at all, like you do on a road course, it would hesitate if in boost... if I then went to WOT on corner exit it would start flashing the CEL. Scanned as random misfires on almost all the cylinders. Pig rich.
I have no idea what to try next... ignition upgrade? Throttle Body?








-m


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## Gabe. (Apr 29, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

If you try and downshift and punch it right away does it still do it? Does it flutter in the lower gears?
also curious as to what version of software you two have.


_Modified by Royale10 at 12:38 PM 2-12-2008_


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I have the newest version of the C2 chip. 
I'm going to try the coolant temp sensor tomorrow night along with scanning the car again. bah. I kind of have to put this on hold now that my car is PISSING oil.
Either my rear main seal didnt sit right when we built the motor, or the timing chain cover didn't sit right. Either way, it pisses oil out the cover over the bell housing. Gotta tend to that this weekend. Going fast is getting put on hold now. IT NEVER ENDS!!!


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

sell it buy a toyota corolla


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

seems like a boost leak .. I had similar issues a while back.. Had no clue what it was for a while since the car ran fine when not in boost... Turned out my TB silicone piece had a nice slice in it.. it was going lean at 6psi..
Presure test the system when u get a chance if you havent already..


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (Vdubsolo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubsolo* »_seems like a boost leak .. I had similar issues a while back.. Had no clue what it was for a while since the car ran fine when not in boost... Turned out my TB silicone piece had a nice slice in it.. it was going lean at 6psi..
Presure test the system when u get a chance if you havent already..

Going rich for me, not lean.
Software version : newest 42# C2 chip (or at least that's what the kid who sold it to me said







) 
Next stop : throttle body?
-m


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## Wells (Dec 19, 2005)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_sell it buy a toyota corolla

LOL!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

flatsix -- any updates on your end ? i'm not sure where to go from here.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I've officially said screw it with the C2 software. I was going to install a new coolant temp sensor, but just don't care anymore.
Car is going SDS. Whatever is causing the problem is going to be eliminated... Sds should hopefully go in this weekend or next week at some point and the car should get tuned soon.
I'll post with results once it all goes on, then the dyno charts once I get it tuned.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

funny thing is, nothing is wrong with the C2 software...so my guess is you'll spend the time and money on sds and possibly have the same problem, but you can play around with it some....don't think sem is your answer


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_funny thing is, nothing is wrong with the C2 software...so my guess is you'll spend the time and money on sds and possibly have the same problem, but you can play around with it some....don't think sem is your answer

Who knows, if he throws enough parts at it he may well solve his problem.
My Update:
*Big* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Shawn at Kinetic. He's given me some ideas for things to try on my end... and as soon as I get replacement tires for the ones I destroyed on the track, I can get my currently stranded car home and try them out








Current possible culprits :
- TPS when it gets hot. Currently being slow roasted by turbo
- Voltage / GND problem at the coil pack, but not the coil pack itself. Need to measure the voltage drop at the coilpack +12 and GNDs under load.
- Noise induced on coilpack GND circuit from wideband sensor lead (anyone know another place where I can get an RPM signal that isn't the coilpack?)
-m


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Considering the sds uses damn near all of it's own sensors, the only thing left that I'd have to replace would be the TB, nock sensors, cam & crank position sensors. The only thing I could see being a problem is the TB, and if I have to, I'll replace that too.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Replaced Coolant temp sensor, cleaned IAT sensor, fixed an oil leak and fixed 2 bad grounds on the motor.
Car feels better at 9psi, but idles better and drives outside of boost better than ever. We did a few pulls, had a few hiccups at 9psi and got a blinking cel.







We then tried to turn the boost up and all it did was break up hardcore... again.
Hit boost, turned the car off and rolled it into my boys garage. Pulled the plugs to check for lean or rich and found that 2 plugs were horribly cracked in the porcelain. The car is running on the rich side at least. New set of plugs are going in tonight along with a new IAT sensor.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Car is officially FIXED. Thankyou to everyone that helped. In the end, the plugs made the finally difference, even though I was on the 2nd set after breaking the motor in. 19psi feels stupid fast, anything more and it's a little 2 steppy, gotta close up the gap a tid bit.
The Things I replaced in order from start to now:
1. MAF
2. Coil Pack
3. Plug Wires
4. Spark Plugs
5. Cam Position Sensor
6. Coolant Temp Sensor
7. Cleaned IAT Sensor
8. New Spark Plugs at .026 *NGK BKR7E*
Thanks again to everyone!


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Car is officially FIXED. Thankyou to everyone that helped. In the end, the plugs made the finally difference, even though I was on the 2nd set after breaking the motor in. 19psi feels stupid fast, anything more and it's a little 2 steppy, gotta close up the gap a tid bit.
The Things I replaced in order from start to now:
1. MAF
2. Coil Pack
3. Plug Wires
4. Spark Plugs
5. Cam Position Sensor
6. Coolant Temp Sensor
7. Cleaned IAT Sensor
8. New Spark Plugs at .026 *NGK BKR7E*
Thanks again to everyone!

So just changing your plugs fixed it for you? What plugs were you running for #4 above? 
-m


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I think in reality, it was the MAF, CTS and then plugs in the end. I was always running the same plugs, just found that 2 of the plugs were cracked.
Car is still running really rich on idle, but once I get driving, it's not too bad.


_Modified by flatsix02 at 8:16 AM 2-29-2008_


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## Wells (Dec 19, 2005)

sweet, now you can give me back my maf and coilpack.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I really give up now.
Car will run high boost, but I'm not going to do it anymore. I stepped on it once of twice, the other day then when back to 9psi before I got on the dyno. 
Hopped on the dyno at 9 psi yesterday to get a good baseline, and found that it was pulling a 13.5 to 14 on the wideband. Instantly got off the power. Cleaned the MAF, put in new plugs and it did the same thing again on the 2nd pull.
Both tuners at the dyno seem to think that going up .2L would cause it to be running lean because its tuned for a 2.8. Is this true? Am I screwed until I get a custom chip written because I went to a 3.0L
scott


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

There are plenty of guys running 3.0's on c2 management. The extra displacement will probably have some effect on higher boost levels, but most people on 2.8's are running 20-22psi. No way that extra displacement is enough to cause it to run lean at 9psi. I would say that you still have a problem elsewhere.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Where though? That's where I'm lost now.
Every damn thing has been replaced. I even ran the crank vent to the ground just to be sure the MAF stays clean and not read wrong.
I'm am out of ideas.


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## lockheedVR6 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

bump


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (lockheedVR6)*

I don't mind [email protected] I'd like 12.5-13.0 better but you're not crazy lean.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

next thing i would check would be leaks. pressure test the intake side and look around for white trails on your downpipe and other spots (exhaust leak). 
and start going for the really obvious stuff ... make sure you have the right chip by seeing the version in vag-com.... measue your fuel pressure since you're going lean... could be a fuel pressure regulator or fuel pump. 
how many g/s do you see from your MAF at idle? sounds like your MAF is fine... but it's good to double check against other cars. any codes?
-m


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Vag'd the car like a week ago, software is the newest version.
I've checked for exhaust and intake leaks, nothing there. I'm going to pressure test the intercooler piping tonight to see if I find any leaks. Thing is, Jeff Atwood said that a boost leak would cause the car to go rich, not lean. 
I know I have fuel pressure as the fuel pressure gauge under the hood was reading over 40 psi going into boost. I stood and watched it the whole time. The 255 walboro is screaming in the background so I know it's working.
I don't know about the g/s on the maf for idle as I havnt had a chance to measure it. What are the correct readings for the idle?


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (flatsix02)*

Do you have a wideband in your car or were you relying on the one on the dyno?


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Dyno's wideband.
I know it's accurate because the RX7 before me had a uego and it was DEAD ON with the dyno's wideband. He turned his boost up to roughly 25psi, and it was within a tenth the entire time.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

Installed wideband in my car last night.
At 13ish psi, when it hits full boost, it spikes a 13.7 a/f and fatten's but to about 12.7 by redline. Still seems a bit too lean for my taste, and I really dont want to turn the boost up anymore.
Idle is around 14.5/15 a/f and same for cruising with a little bit of 13's. Out of boost is fine, in boost is whats making me nervous.
I'm still hearing from some tuners in the area that it may be because I bored out .2L to a 3.0, but that just doesnt see, right to me.
Suggestions?


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Installed wideband in my car last night.
At 13ish psi, when it hits full boost, it spikes a 13.7 a/f and fatten's but to about 12.7 by redline. Still seems a bit too lean for my taste, and I really dont want to turn the boost up anymore.
Idle is around 14.5/15 a/f and same for cruising with a little bit of 13's. Out of boost is fine, in boost is whats making me nervous.
I'm still hearing from some tuners in the area that it may be because I bored out .2L to a 3.0, but that just doesnt see, right to me.
Suggestions?

i know this is WAY off topic but are what his a/f's he discribed correct or around where they should be? i got a wideband not too long ago and want to know where i need to be at??? 
sorry to jack the post.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (flatsix02)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flatsix02* »_Installed wideband in my car last night.
At 13ish psi, when it hits full boost, it spikes a 13.7 a/f and fatten's but to about 12.7 by redline. Still seems a bit too lean for my taste, and I really dont want to turn the boost up anymore.
Idle is around 14.5/15 a/f and same for cruising with a little bit of 13's. Out of boost is fine, in boost is whats making me nervous.
I'm still hearing from some tuners in the area that it may be because I bored out .2L to a 3.0, but that just doesnt see, right to me.
Suggestions?

The extra 200cc of displacement isn't a problem at all. I have the same setup and I run too rich







(not that i've diagnosed anything since my last update). i know a couple ppl around here who have the same setup on 3.0l motors like me and they run fine.
-m


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