# 1.8T.. is VW lagging behind?



## vwjetta252006 (Jul 31, 2009)

With the 2.5 L engines one could choose a jetta/golf over a civic in a heartbeat.. but now in 2015.. can one easily pick a 4 cylinder civic over a jetta?

With VW, Mercedes, BMW, etc moving down to smaller 4 cylinder turbos is vw falling behind?

The Honda civic...has a 1.8L 4 cylinder *Naturally aspirated *engine giving it 143 hp, and 129 ft /lbs of toruqe.
Mk7 golf 1.8L *4 Cylinder car * *Turbocharged giving *it 170 horses and 200 ft /lbs of torque Hondas getting owned by only 30 horses, With turbos... so if vw took out those turbos.. the power rating would be what? 115-120?

Civic si has 2.4 L Naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine producing 205 hp, and 174 ft / lbs of torque
the GTI mk7 has 2.0 Turbocharged 4 cylinder producing 210 hp , and 258 ft/lbs of torque..
the mk5/ mk6 had 2.0t 4 cylinders 200hp.. 210 ft lbs *again Honda did it without turbos???
*

point being VW has to turbocharge the cars to get the power that honda produces without the use of turbos. WHY??????

The 2.5 was N/A so for me it was a no brainer...... mk5s over civics..

but with vw going down to 4 cylinders and turbocharging them, and the gains are not that much over a N/A honda car.. is vw lagging behind?


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## Aquafbody (Sep 12, 2014)

Yes honda's make impressive numbers on hp but not torque, the make hilariously low torque numbers and all that power is made at like 7000-9000 rpm. Coming from the former owner of an integra swapped CRX.


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

It's apples to oranges OP. VW isn't taking an NA motor and slapping a turbo on it. You're talking about a motor designed to be run via a turbo and respond a certain way and get great mpg's. It's not as if vw is incapable of making an NA motor with 170hp. It's their choice _not too. _Also, VW is not and never will be after winning hp battles. Besides, if the 170hp 1.8tsi isn't enough, you can spend $500 and jump ~80hp on a chip, something you CANNOT do with an NA motor for that price.


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## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

vwjetta252006 said:


> With the 2.5 L engines one could choose a jetta/golf over a civic in a heartbeat.. but now in 2015.. can one easily pick a 4 cylinder civic over a jetta?
> 
> With VW, Mercedes, BMW, etc moving down to smaller 4 cylinder turbos is vw falling behind?
> 
> ...



this thread make zero cents (sic) 

So a 5 cylinder engine with less power and less mpg is a slam dunk compared to the 1.8T with more power and better fuel economy? :screwy: As someone who has had both the 1.8L honda civic and now the 1.8T Golf I know exactly which one is a slam dunk.



VR6OOM said:


> It's apples to oranges OP. VW isn't taking an NA motor and slapping a turbo on it. You're talking about a motor designed to be run via a turbo and respond a certain way and get great mpg's. It's not as if vw is incapable of making an NA motor with 170hp. It's their choice _not too. _Also, VW is not and never will be after winning hp battles. Besides, if the 170hp 1.8tsi isn't enough, you can spend $500 and jump ~80hp on a chip, something you CANNOT do with an NA motor for that price.


well said :thumbup:

To add to that you can't always look at HP/TQ numbers as a definative measuring stick. Gearing, power curve etc. will affect how the car performs.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

Looks like the 1.8T gives us the beat of both worlds.
Good miles per gallon.
Good low end torque.
And reasonable horse power, even better with 
a tune and if driven for MPG should improve with
the tune. 
Looks like the perfect engine/car for me Golf.


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## fenrihr (May 22, 2009)

Those are nice numbers, but what is missing from this is the power curve. 
I admit, I haven't seen the torque/hp curves on those honda engine, but knowing older honda, they take a while to build up to peak power, while torque does the same.
The 1.8T is definitely not the same, I own a mk7 Golf TSI, and power is on pretty quick (by 2k RPM). Sure it may not seem all that impressive that a 1.8T only makes 25 more hp than a non-turbo, but it does make a huge amount more torque, and that torque is usable along the entire powerband, rather than only over 4k RPM. 

To be honest, the best comparison you can possibly do is a test drive of both. Try it out before you competely dismiss it. Just going by the numbers won't give you the whole story.


Added: There is definitely no lagging behind at VW, The US models are... less than awesome in some ways, but the driveline is NOT part of that problem. (Main issue I have with the US models is the idea that we need more overweight sedans, less trim options, and when we do have them, they come packaged with options we may not want, or cannot get if we do want, lack of cloth seats, for instance.)


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## Shawn99/30V (Sep 28, 2000)

The 1.8 tsi engine won 1 of the 10 best engine award last year.


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## riva.rider (Apr 17, 2008)

vwjetta252006 said:


> With the 2.5 L engines one could choose a jetta/golf over a civic in a heartbeat.. but now in 2015.. can one easily pick a 4 cylinder civic over a jetta?


You need to go test drive the cars you are talking about. Getting hung up on spec sheet numbers can lead you to wrong conclusions. You would choose the 2.5L jetta over a civic only because the engine is larger? And now you would choose a civic over a jetta only because of the 170hp rating of the 1.8 TSI? 

Go drive them.


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## passat tsi (Jun 1, 2014)

riva.rider said:


> You need to go test drive the cars you are talking about. Getting hung up on spec sheet numbers can lead you to wrong conclusions. You would choose the 2.5L jetta over a civic only because the engine is larger? And now you would choose a civic over a jetta only because of the 170hp rating of the 1.8 TSI?
> 
> Go drive them.


yeap the 1.8 feels strong !!! specially with a neuspeed module and downpipe . no honda cant keep up even the V6 ones.


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## BenignB7 (Jan 21, 2015)

Steps to 1.8 TSI revelation.. Find a local dealer where you can test drive a manual 1.8 TSI. Go down to dealer and jump in for your test drive. After its warm, shift into 2nd as you come around a right hand turn at a regular 90degree intersection, floor the accel and don't go to 3rd until after 6500rpm. Slow and pull over. Realize the power and torque is underrated. Realize the mpg ratings. Realize that a few hundred dollars and premium will add 30hp to what your seat pants just felt. 

I don't know about being faster than 270hp v6 cars.. but VW has its own 6, and the TSI sure is not lagging behind comparable engines from other manufacturers like this post's title suggests. The new 2.5 mazda and new 2.4 honda motors are also great motors, but the TSI makes as much peak hp/tq as them while having much wider areas of it. Also like was mentioned earlier the n/a competition cannot add 30hp/tq like this TSI can, and unlike the ecoboost motors the TSI actually is capable of getting its rated mpg.


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## Zinland (Feb 1, 2015)

BenignB7 said:


> Steps to 1.8 TSI revelation.. Find a local dealer where you can test drive a manual 1.8 TSI. Go down to dealer and jump in for your test drive. After its warm, shift into 2nd as you come around a right hand turn at a regular 90degree intersection, floor the accel and don't go to 3rd until after 6500rpm. Slow and pull over. Realize the power and torque is underrated. Realize the mpg ratings. Realize that a few hundred dollars and premium will add 30hp to what your seat pants just felt.
> 
> I don't know about being faster than 270hp v6 cars.. but VW has its own 6, and the TSI sure is not lagging behind comparable engines from other manufacturers like this post's title suggests. The new 2.5 mazda and new 2.4 honda motors are also great motors, but the TSI makes as much peak hp/tq as them while having much wider areas of it. Also like was mentioned earlier the n/a competition cannot add 30hp/tq like this TSI can, and unlike the ecoboost motors the TSI actually is capable of getting its rated mpg.


Is any company making a ECU tune for the 1.8 TSI 6 speed auto? I know there is hope that Unitronic will have it, but are there any existing programs or chips out there?


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## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Zinland said:


> Is any company making a ECU tune for the 1.8 TSI 6 speed auto? I know there is hope that Unitronic will have it, but are there any existing programs or chips out there?


only for the Golf/A3 version. Not Jetta or Passat.:banghead:


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## passat tsi (Jun 1, 2014)

BenignB7 said:


> Steps to 1.8 TSI revelation.. Find a local dealer where you can test drive a manual 1.8 TSI. Go down to dealer and jump in for your test drive. After its warm, shift into 2nd as you come around a right hand turn at a regular 90degree intersection, floor the accel and don't go to 3rd until after 6500rpm. Slow and pull over. Realize the power and torque is underrated. Realize the mpg ratings. Realize that a few hundred dollars and premium will add 30hp to what your seat pants just felt.
> 
> I don't know about being faster than 270hp v6 cars.. but VW has its own 6, and the TSI sure is not lagging behind comparable engines from other manufacturers like this post's title suggests. The new 2.5 mazda and new 2.4 honda motors are also great motors, but the TSI makes as much peak hp/tq as them while having much wider areas of it. Also like was mentioned earlier the n/a competition cannot add 30hp/tq like this TSI can, and unlike the ecoboost motors the TSI actually is capable of getting its rated mpg.


on my passat i have the downpipe, COA and neuspeed module and it is a big difference with little mods


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## turboed vw (Apr 6, 2011)

I would really like to see both power graphs on the 1.8t vs 1.8 Na from Honda. Don't forget that those numbers are peak power aswell.


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## BenignB7 (Jan 21, 2015)

Looking at TSI dyno numbers or 0-60 numbers, its not making 170 peak. It makes more despite the stock tune holding it back.

You can't compare a 1.8 n/a to the 1.8 TSI. Its more comparable to the base Camry/Accord/6 engines than to the Civic/Corolla/3 base stuff. Look at some dyno runs on the Camry base 2.5 motor also used in the TC. Specs say its higher in peak power than the TSI 1.8 and yet on the dyno the TSI is 15 to 20 horses higher. Mazda's 2.5 should be alot closer than Toyota's 2.5 though. Stock for stock I wouldn't be surprised if the K24 beats the TSI by a few horses in peak power. But the area is so much wider with the TSI. The gearing with the 5spd is ABSURDLY widely spaced. But thanks the torque spread it doesn't matter. My 4th is higher than my previous car's 5th! None of the other guys would be able to pull that kind of gearing.


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## mk6turbo (Jun 24, 2014)

I've had the 1.8 civic and now drive a 1.8t jetta. Both auto. The jetta is loadssss better than the civic. Power delivery, tq, top end, mileage, everything. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zinland (Feb 1, 2015)

mk6turbo said:


> I've had the 1.8 civic and now drive a 1.8t jetta. Both auto. The jetta is loadssss better than the civic. Power delivery, tq, top end, mileage, everything.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 1.8 TSI engine is a real gem. I can't believe what grunt this small engine has at such low revs. The 6 speed Tiptronic is a great partner.


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## mk6turbo (Jun 24, 2014)

Zinland said:


> The 1.8 TSI engine is a real gem. I can't believe what grunt this small engine has at such low revs. The 6 speed Tiptronic is a great partner.


Yea I've considered trading my car, but it's just too good all around. I'm absolutely in love with it  now as soon as one of the tuners makes a damn tune for the Tiptronic models, it'll be amazing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gsprobe (Jan 29, 2006)

riva.rider said:


> You need to go test drive the cars you are talking about. Getting hung up on spec sheet numbers can lead you to wrong conclusions. You would choose the 2.5L jetta over a civic only because the engine is larger? And now you would choose a civic over a jetta only because of the 170hp rating of the 1.8 TSI?
> 
> Go drive them.


Agreed. That honda _feels_ like it only has 100 hp. Torque is what launches the car. 

I own a MK4 turbo jetta 1.8t and I also own a 2008 Honda S2000. Guess which feels faster in everday driving? The only time the S feels fast is above 6000 RPMs. Different animals.


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## VRptstyly (May 18, 2006)

There's no substitute for good low-mid range torque, at the end of the day that's what you want in a fun daily, that's what makes a good street driven car feel fast. Inherently thats what a turbo gives you and that's not what the civic is going to deliver. You guys are sure selling me on this new 1.8t. :thumbup:

What are you seeing for real world gas mileage, commuting highway, mixed, and say beating on it a bit?? Advertised at 37mpg highway an accurate #?


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## Gyseln (Dec 27, 2014)

I primarily drive on the highway, but I am a spirited druver, so my calculated mileage is only 30 MPG. I did go on a 750 mile round trip that got me 37 MPG there and 34 MPG on the return. Not bad for cruising at extra legal speeds. I am confident that 40 MPG could be attained by driving at the speed limit.


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## Shawn99/30V (Sep 28, 2000)

>42 mpg with cruise control @ 70mph. (with Power Module)


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## Zinland (Feb 1, 2015)

VRptstyly said:


> There's no substitute for good low-mid range torque, at the end of the day that's what you want in a fun daily, that's what makes a good street driven car feel fast. Inherently thats what a turbo gives you and that's not what the civic is going to deliver. You guys are sure selling me on this new 1.8t. :thumbup:
> 
> What are you seeing for real world gas mileage, commuting highway, mixed, and say beating on it a bit?? Advertised at 37mpg highway an accurate #?


Only had the '14 Jetta SE Auto for 3 months. First long trip got, 36.5 mpg with some 75+ mph stints. Two latest around town tanks were 26-27 mpg. This engine urges you to use it's torque.


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## hamstertime (May 9, 2015)

BenignB7 said:


> Steps to 1.8 TSI revelation.. Find a local dealer where you can test drive a manual 1.8 TSI. Go down to dealer and jump in for your test drive. After its warm, shift into 2nd as you come around a right hand turn at a regular 90degree intersection, floor the accel and don't go to 3rd until after 6500rpm. Slow and pull over. Realize the power and torque is underrated. Realize the mpg ratings. Realize that a few hundred dollars and premium will add 30hp to what your seat pants just felt.


Agreed. Power is underrated. An exceptional motor with very little (if any) turbo lag. It feels like a much stronger engine.

Don't get me wrong, I love revving the hell out of a Honda; I had an S2000. People complain that they can't have fun in a Honda under 6000rpm. Then duh, keep it over 6000rpm when you're having fun.


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