# Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup?



## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

Thinking about running an air to water intercooler setup on my 16vT car. Who has experience with these intercoolers? What do you think of it? Is it efficient?


----------



## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dinamik2.0)*

anyone?


----------



## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dinamik2.0)*

my thoughts are that an air to air is a much simpler and less expensive way to go


----------



## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (epjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *epjetta* »_my thoughts are that an air to air is a much simpler and less expensive way to go

Simplicity and what is cheaper isn't a factor in what I want to know but thanks...I'm asking about the efficiency, basically is there a greater benefit as opposed to using an air to air system.


----------



## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dinamik2.0)*

i would just add a spray bar to the air to air to make it very efficient. over 100% when cooled by gases below 0 degrees.


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (epjetta)*

Air to water is more efficient IF you are running ice water. It's also more expensive and more complicated. I would consider it for a drag car but other than that I'm not sure it's worth the cost.


----------



## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (slc92)*

not worth it in my opinion unless your dragging the car. its a little over kill and all that water can heat up and do nothing...


----------



## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (2pt. slo)*

AWIC setups can work very well if designed properly...search spearo's website they have a nice write-up on the awic vs aaic.......
It takes a bit of engineering to size the system since -- for example if you do not have enough water in a reserve tank -- the system will heat soak badly -- and will take alot of moving air on the heat exchanger to cool...same if the heat exchanger is too small or restrictive in flow.....
AWIC has some pluses -- 
heat exhangers are typically more compact than a aaic setup -- and we all know vws don't have alot of real estate in front of that rebar......
the option of running ice on the dyno or strip is pretty cool too.... 
water is a better conductor of heat than air (don't care what others say -- it is) - however the big downside is that the heat needs to be transfer twice....therefore thermal conductive energy is lost because of this.....so after that said -- not much or any better than aaic
awic does better in stop and go traffic -- with enough reserve of cool water and even a cooling fan on the heat exchanger......aaic tends to like a good bit of moving air to have any useful efficiency....if I was wrong -- than why are our cars watercooled to begin with?????? and not air-cooled like the older bugs, etc.....
shorter piping means faster throttle response and less lag.....plus routing is easier - don't need to snake down and around and back - and ending up with 12-15 feet of ic piping....
stealth look is a little easier -- since there no hacked bumper or blinging aaic up front......or serious rebar/rad support surgery
cool factor -- a polished awic under the hood looks (to me at least) -- looks nicer than a buck-toothed front end with a hacked bumper for an aaic (although a tucked aaic behind the bumper looked nice -- but still blocked partially from moving air)
tends to have a tad bit less pressure drop due to a more compact cooling element.....
minuses.....
added weight -- got a small fishtank's worth of water in the trunk now....(oh yeah don't put the tank under the hood....leads to heat soak)
you have a pump that has to run basically all the time......will probably need to be replaced once every couple years or so - depending on the miles you put on your car (ask the mustang cobra/ford lightning guys)
You also have to wire the pump properly.....to run when ignition is on, etc.....need to make sure its not left on and kills your battery.....
usually costs more than a aaic......unless you pay to have ic pipes fabricated for an aaic -- than the cost offset may not be that much....
If you don't size the system right -- you could never efficiently cool anything.....

**In the end -- both systems have benefits and shortcomings...and on a street car I think either will perform satisfactorily........**
**I think an awic may have a very slight performance advantage on a stop and go street car or drag car.....but a aaic is much more simple in design -- costs less -- and maintanence free, and is equally efficient as an awic at highway speeds**


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*

i have a a/w setup in my VRT, and it work awsome when i put ice in it, but for daily its not all that bad, you need a lot of water adn a good pump, 
i do a lot of street racing so i just by pass the heat exchanger and put ice it it and she gets coooooolllllllldddddd. 
i like it for what i do with it, but i built my car to be stealthy that is more why i did it that way


----------



## VDFOSHO (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (DaBeeterEater)*

i have air to water and love it. It is more complicated and there are more things to break like the pump failing. i have never had a problem.


----------



## clarksongli (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (EuroSpec GTI vr6)*

water is a better heat conducting fluid.......which means it can draw heat from an exchanger more efficiently
that being said, it is more efficient
now you can go even more crazy, and the use of liquid salts, can absorb huge amounts of heat
now the only ****ty thing is when you turn the car off or sit idle(assuming no fans on AWIC)
they can heatsoak without proper fans or if you turn the car off


----------



## TeemuM (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (clarksongli)*

What size is your water tanks? 
I am now putting my AWIC system together and I have about 10 litre (2.2 gallon) water tank. Is that enough?
I have boat bilge pump inside tank that pumps about 6000l/hour and then there is heat exchange core in front of the car.
I was thinking to do plumbing as following order: 
tank - pump - heat exchange core - IC - tank
Is that right or should heat exchange core be after IC?


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (TeemuM)*

heat exchanger after IC. i run no tanks and works just fine.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dhutchvento* »_you have a pump that has to run basically all the time......
You also have to wire the pump properly.....to run when ignition is on, etc.....need to make sure its not left on and kills your battery.....


If you monitor the intake air temps during warm up, you'll find the boost air doesn't actually need cooling until the engine is fully up to temperature, which in my day to day driving, is about 10 -15 minutes driving depending on season.
Also, you don't need to run the pump all the time, especially when cruising. My Meziere pump is relayed from my standalone's Aux output to come on when IAT's (I use the instantaneous 1.8T sensor) hit 40 deg C. 
This will prolong the pump's life.
Having experience of both AWIC and AAICs, I can say AWIC is more consistent, especially on the dyno. You don't need ice to make them efficient, that is a myth. They're a plenty efficient with water and G12+. Take a peice of hot metal. What is better at cooling it rapidly? Blowing on it, or dunking it in water?
AAIC is cheaper, easier.... but inconsisent in extremes of temperature and laggier. You also need a massive one with big turbos, and the weight of that and associated piping gets close to good AWIC setup.
AWIC is more expensive, but more consistent, more compact, less lag, more efficient.
It's an age old argument and down to personal preference at the end of the day.
Bill Schimmel's AWIC system I have to say is incredibley effective.


----------



## Turbo_Pumpkin (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (kevhayward)*

It's all in how you set it up... If you set it up properly it can be the best thing in the world, but set up inproperly, it can be no better then an AAIC. The water heat exchanger is the heart of the system unless you are running a drag style setup with an ice box. This is definitly an argument that can go on forever, but it comes down to personal preference.


----------



## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
It's an age old argument and down to personal preference at the end of the day.


x2 -- also you can wire the pumps to run on a hodge pressure switch...and adjust it......so when it hits 1-2 psi the pump will turn on...and while you are driving under vacuum - it will remain off....this would be an option if you do not have a controller for the pump -- plus it will guarantee the pump is off when the car is not running (since there no boost to engage the switch)


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*

Yeah good idea with the pressure switch.
I also forgot to add that sometimes AWIC is the only choice if your car has very limited space at the front, such as the Corrado. I was faced with the choice of hacking up a $1000 bumper and $1000 slam panel + AAIC, or fit a $1700 AWIC system. It was a no brainer for me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (kevhayward)*

stick with the rule pumps or jabsco if your using a boat bildge....


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (Corradokcid)*

if you have standalone you could trigger the pump when you go into boost and forget the hobbs switch.


----------



## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_stick with the rule pumps or jabsco if your using a boat bildge....

ford lightning, mustang cobro, @ vr6 aux cooling pumps work well too (basically the same or similar bosch pump)..... They may not have the gpm and open flow specs as a high end jabsco -- but bosch ones are easy to find and replace....don't bother with the 30 dollar ebay bilge pumps...plus alot of them will burn up if run dry....so a self-priming pump may not be a bad idea (eventhough it sould be at the bottom of the system anyways)


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*

yea always go with a self-priming pumps


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*

i use vr6 aux pump.


----------



## Turbo_Pumpkin (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dhutchvento* »_
ford lightning, mustang cobro, @ vr6 aux cooling pumps work well too (basically the same or similar bosch pump)..... They may not have the gpm and open flow specs as a high end jabsco -- but bosch ones are easy to find and replace....

^^ That's what I use. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (Turbo_Pumpkin)*

alot of chatter -- anyone got pics for clicks.....????


----------



## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*

Thanks for all the input...some pics would be nice as well.


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*









there this is more recent
and its in this










_Modified by DaBeeterEater at 1:15 PM 2-14-2008_


----------



## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (DaBeeterEater)*

What kind of core is that


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dinamik2.0)*

siliconeintakes.com its basically their setup but i built it before i found theirs


----------



## jinxpjh (Apr 26, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (DaBeeterEater)*

car looked good at sflgtg http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Turbo_Pumpkin (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dhutchvento)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dhutchvento* »_alot of chatter -- anyone got pics for clicks.....????










My car.. (I didn't build this one cause I couldn't weld yet)
















A buddy's car I helped with...

















One more we did for a friend's MK4 1.8T. 

_Modified by Turbo_Pumpkin at 7:09 AM 2-15-2008_


_Modified by Turbo_Pumpkin at 8:46 AM 2-15-2008_


----------



## sinisterh22a (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (dinamik2.0)*

i have a liquid to air and love it, cant tell its a turbo car from the outside, i have a 5gal aluminum fuel cell from summit and a meizer(sp) 44gph pump, with a schimmel heat exchanger and a precision liquid to air(which will be for sale if anyone is looking, going bigger)..
if you search under my name there are pics of the set up, i have almost no intercooler piping and other then running water lines it wasnt that big of a deal. i was going to go air to air but since i have the shorter euro bumpers on i didnt want to hack the bumper up and have it look like its a buck tooth bastered..


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (jinxpjh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jinxpjh* »_car looked good at sflgtg http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

thanks bro http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (sinisterh22a)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sinisterh22a* »_........... but since i have the shorter euro bumpers on i didnt want to hack the bumper up and have it look like its a buck tooth bastered..

me too (as far as having euro bumps)....I am nearly complete on buying parts for my lil 2.slo turbo project I have planned (actually the IC setup is all that is really left minus a boost gauge).....
I could hack the already weenie euro rebar.....sounds like an accident waiting to happen (literally).......also I think getting an sri that flips the tb to the drivers side would be tasty since it would really shorten the ic piping......


----------



## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: Air to water intercoolers...what are your feelings on this setup? (Turbo_Pumpkin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Turbo_Pumpkin* »_

















One more we did for a friend's MK4 1.8T. 

_Modified by Turbo_Pumpkin at 7:09 AM 2-15-2008_

_Modified by Turbo_Pumpkin at 8:46 AM 2-15-2008_

pulling that battery out really seems to make a nice place for that awic unit.......


----------



## jeanofl (Mar 13, 2009)

:thumbup:
http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1034&osCsid=ff96198b77741e0d7d0f2f9bab541f1b


----------



## S3.2 (Sep 19, 2009)

I used to have an AWIC and it heat soked badly when in traffic, you could bearly touch the core inside the engine bay, pretty much like anything else in there. The pump was running all the time so I imagine that if you turn it on only under boost the problem will be much greater. When I used to go from stop-and-go traffic to a highway I would get knocking from high IATs and after a while the problem was fixed as the engine bay got cooler. For a while I used plain water instead of G12 and that was probably the reason I got a water leak. The fact that water was leaking inside the intake pipe got me really scared and I switched to an AAIC setup.
The car now runs much better, I always have low IATs, I don't have a problem with stop-and-go traffic and the car makes more Hp too.
Only with the idea that I could break my engine with an AWIC leaking makes me want never to try that again. An AAIC is as Corky Bell states:"relible as a brick".
I used to have a Spearco core, Meziere pump and an OEM radiator in front of the OEM radiator. Now I use a cheap 24x12x3 ebay AAIC and works much better for me. The difference in price is huge...
That's my 02cents.


----------



## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

S3.2 said:


> I used to have an AWIC and it heat soked badly when in traffic, you could bearly touch the core inside the engine bay, pretty much like anything else in there. The pump was running all the time so I imagine that if you turn it on only under boost the problem will be much greater. When I used to go from stop-and-go traffic to a highway I would get knocking from high IATs and after a while the problem was fixed as the engine bay got cooler. For a while I used plain water instead of G12 and that was probably the reason I got a water leak. The fact that water was leaking inside the intake pipe got me really scared and I switched to an AAIC setup.
> The car now runs much better, I always have low IATs, I don't have a problem with stop-and-go traffic and the car makes more Hp too.
> Only with the idea that I could break my engine with an AWIC leaking makes me want never to try that again. An AAIC is as Corky Bell states:"relible as a brick".
> I used to have a Spearco core, Meziere pump and an OEM radiator in front of the OEM radiator. Now I use a cheap 24x12x3 ebay AAIC and works much better for me. The difference in price is huge...
> That's my 02cents.


was your radiator in contact to your engine radiator? fitting two of those in the front must have been tough and cramped in there. if they were touching you have a huge flaw in your design. were you controlling the fans to keep air flow?


----------



## S3.2 (Sep 19, 2009)

The 2 OEM radiators sit behind the front plastic frame while I put the 3d OEM radiator in front of the frame. There is huge space in front of the frame I have a 3" IC now. They had half an inch between them. Oh I removed the aluminum brace behind the bumper.
The engine bay is hot as hell in traffic and having the fans blow hot air in the engine bay doesn't solve the problem.
Unless you put ice in the A2WIC the A2AIC is a lot better in every aspect (except maybe in transient responce becausse of the shorter pipes)


----------



## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

S3.2 said:


> The 2 OEM radiators sit behind the front plastic frame while I put the 3d OEM radiator in front of the frame. There is huge space in front of the frame I have a 3" IC now. They had half an inch between them. Oh I removed the aluminum brace behind the bumper.
> The engine bay is hot as hell in traffic and having the fans blow hot air in the engine bay doesn't solve the problem.
> Unless you put ice in the A2WIC the A2AIC is a lot better in every aspect (except maybe in transient responce becausse of the shorter pipes)


WHAT?? if what your theory of adding fans is correct then every car equipped with a radiator which I believe almost all of them should be melting their engines in traffic. is the same principle as in your normal radiator, put a fan and force air through it. you had too much stuff blocking it and heat soaking everything in your bay with 3 oem radiators. I have no idea how you will fit them in the already tight space there?? any pics?


what water pump? what hoses? what size spearco core, where did you located it?


HPA and HGP use AWIC in their kits and no issues, you had a bad core that leaked and that might have been your issue. 

A2A IC is simpler and reliable and everyone uses it because of this but they also heat soak under certain circumstances. 

you need to post more details on what you did wrong on yours


----------



## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

You just had a terrible setup man. Nothing wrong with AWIC's. If you don't know how to set up an AWIC properly, then of course A/A will work better. 3 rads? :facepalm::screwy:


----------



## S3.2 (Sep 19, 2009)

Actually my setup was like HGP's. I am very fond of the HGP kits, only problem is I believe they design them only for Germany. That's why they use the 2 OEM S3 ICs that were designed for 225Hp for double that! The small OEM ICs are already working their asses to the limit @225Hp and there are already upgrades for them for the S3 and TT. Imagine using them for double that! It reminds me of the first air-cooled VWs which I suppose worked great in the cold of Germany but melted their engines in Greece so we had to remove the rear hoods to not overheat...
Same goes for their A2WICs They use 3 radiators also but I used an OEM radiator which is probably 3 times as large as HGP's small heat-exchanger. The Spearco was a supposedly 1000Hp unit same as HGP's. You cool the radi with the fan but all the heat goes in the engine bay where the A2WIC is located. Same problem with the Imprezas etc.
Just get a $100 ebay A2AIC and feel the difference!


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Okay, so here is a question. I am looking to put a turbo on my diesel Land Cruiser and there isnt much room in between the radiator and the winch so an air to air intercooler isnt too attractive of an option, not to mention if I could, it would not get much airflow due to the bumper/ winch set up. So, I am looking at an air to water intercooler set up to help drop charge temps and EGTs. Here is my question, with an air to water intercooler, do I need to run a separate pump with a separate radiator? I have a huge, 4 core radiator in the truck right now and have an easy place to tap in to coolant flow so the intercooler would receive coolant from the coolant system on the truck, the water pump would do the circulation work and the engine driven fan would pull more air through the radiator than an electric fan, as it does normally. Is this a dumb idea? You can tell me straight up, I can handle it  Im looking at space requirements and comparing it with intercooler options. A 4x6 barrel style intercooler would be perfect for the amount of air being pushed by the T3. Thanks


----------



## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

morecarsthanbrains said:


> Okay, so here is a question. I am looking to put a turbo on my diesel Land Cruiser and there isnt much room in between the radiator and the winch so an air to air intercooler isnt too attractive of an option, not to mention if I could, it would not get much airflow due to the bumper/ winch set up. So, I am looking at an air to water intercooler set up to help drop charge temps and EGTs. Here is my question, with an air to water intercooler, do I need to run a separate pump with a separate radiator? I have a huge, 4 core radiator in the truck right now and have an easy place to tap in to coolant flow so the intercooler would receive coolant from the coolant system on the truck, the water pump would do the circulation work and the engine driven fan would pull more air through the radiator than an electric fan, as it does normally. Is this a dumb idea? You can tell me straight up, I can handle it  Im looking at space requirements and comparing it with intercooler options. A 4x6 barrel style intercooler would be perfect for the amount of air being pushed by the T3. Thanks


 water intercoolers use separate water source!!!!! coolant from the engine is around 190*f on most VW's, not sure on diesel cruisers like yours, that will actually warm up the air intake and make it worst. 

you get an AWIC core, a separate radiator, and a water pump that is an independent system with its own water. you need space to cool down the water with the radiator.


----------



## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

S3.2 said:


> Actually my setup was like HGP's. I am very fond of the HGP kits, only problem is I believe they design them only for Germany. That's why they use the 2 OEM S3 ICs that were designed for 225Hp for double that! The small OEM ICs are already working their asses to the limit @225Hp and there are already upgrades for them for the S3 and TT. Imagine using them for double that! It reminds me of the first air-cooled VWs which I suppose worked great in the cold of Germany but melted their engines in Greece so we had to remove the rear hoods to not overheat...
> Same goes for their A2WICs They use 3 radiators also but I used an OEM radiator which is probably 3 times as large as HGP's small heat-exchanger. The Spearco was a supposedly 1000Hp unit same as HGP's. You cool the radi with the fan but all the heat goes in the engine bay where the A2WIC is located. Same problem with the Imprezas etc.
> Just get a $100 ebay A2AIC and feel the difference!


 
you my friend stated since the begining to have really bad hardware, from leaking intercoolers to 3 radiators stacked one after another (the worst design ever) you blocked the engine radiator from any type of flow and induced heat transfer to your intercooler radiators. 

from what you are saying you made your own AWIC's from A2A IC's (Mistake) A2W uses a different type of core for the water side. you never told us what type of pump you used, what size of water lines? 

post pics of your kit and I'll point your problems. 

HPA kits seem to do fine on A2W because they are built decently.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

huichox4 said:


> water intercoolers use separate water source!!!!! coolant from the engine is around 190*f on most VW's, not sure on diesel cruisers like yours, that will actually warm up the air intake and make it worst.
> 
> you get an AWIC core, a separate radiator, and a water pump that is an independent system with its own water. you need space to cool down the water with the radiator.


 Yeah, thats what I was thinking but thought I would ask anyway. There just arent too many options when it comes to intercooler mounting. I guess Ill just have to figure it out.


----------

