# Brakes Upgrades? Are Boxster Calipers and SS Brake lines really worth it?



## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Let me just start out by saying that I've been searching for the last few days on this and now I really want to know the specifics.

Looking into doing a complete brake job/upgrade soon and I'm wondering which parts are just hype and which ones are truly effective. (and don't brake the bank). I'm in need of new rotors and pads anyway so why not upgrade...

Here are my questions and different directions I'm contemplating:

Pretty sure I'm going to leave the rears as OEM since the 225 has damn decent rears from the factory as it is, so I'm going to upgrade the pads to Hawk HPS and new rotors and leave them as is. So for the fronts:

MKIV R32/3.2 TT upgrade to 13.1" rotors and 2 piston calipers. (When the '04 R32 came out it had almost supercar stopping car power) the bad part here is the cost since I would need rotors, calipers, pads, carriers and lines, but they seem awesome! ~$1300 using used calipers

Porsche Boxster 4 piston monoblock calipers on OEM rotors w/ PureMS carriers. Are they really a great upgrade from the stock lowly single piston calipers? Pros here are I can stick with the stock rotors, but need calipers, pads, carriers and lines. Traditional upgrade with a little weight savings (although no un-sprung weight since the rotors remain OEM) ~$1000 using used calipers

OEM 12.3" and single piston with Tyrol Stiffing Kit. Pros here are cost using new rotors, pads and Tyrol kit ~$700

So using the car as a DD, occasional auto-x/ twisty carving, aiming for 350-400hp in the end, are the Boxster or R32 upgrade really worth the extra cost? Am I even going to max out the OEM brakes w/ good rotors/pads/fluid? If OEM is really good enough, I'll put my money elsewhere... I'm looking for effective-ness.

Next on the agenda are the rotors. I've heard and read that drilled rotors will crack early, slotted will wear pads faster and create noise and neither one is necessary except on a road course car with extreme heat build up and fade resistance is most important. Opinions here? At first I had my eyes on EBC slotted and dimpled, and the EDC black dash semi slotted, now I'm looking at plain faced or "blank" Zimmerman or Brembo, either way I defiantly want a coated rotor. So what's the opinion here. Prices are about the same between the 4 with the Zimmerman blanks being about $75 less for all 4

And for stainless steel lines: I've been reading that unless the OEM lines are damaged for otherwise messed up, SS lines are not really necessary. The ECS kit only replaces the front and "center" lines, not the rears going to the calipers (which makes no sense at all). But of course I can get custom lines made. But are the really a necessity for improve braking and pedal feel, AKA, are they worth it?

Pads will be Hawk HPS as I've had superb experience with them in the past on my Rx-7s, and fluid will probably be ATE 200 (Super blue w/o the blue dye as I've heard the dye is actually what eats the seals in both the brakes and clutch, and I think Super Blue has been pulled off the shelves anyway), unless someone has other opinions (Motul, Pentosin, etc.)

Sorry for the book of Q's at once, but I really want to get this over as I'm the kinda guy who does things once and tries to do them right. Sure I could save up forever and slap on a $2k Porsche BBK on there, but why....:screwy:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I've got an Audi A4 Quattro that I DD, Autocross and teach HPDE ( Track Days ). Originally I tried the TT carrier / A8 rotor (312mm ) upgrade. I later switched to Porsche Boxster calipers because I was getting pad taper on Track Days. In my experience, the only reason to upgrade the brakes to something like the Porsche Monoblocks is track days. The 312 mm rotor upgrade and stock calipers ( Pagid pads ) was more than adequate for everything else.

The 2 piece floating caliper design has a tendency to deflect ( all floating caliper designs ) under Track Day/Road Race conditions which leads to pad Taper. The non floating 4 piston calipers are much stiffer, and the Porsche calipers are particularly good as they are Monoblocks ( 1 piece casting ) and they have differential sized bores ( leading and trailing pistons of different sizes ). This reduces pad taper greatly and also reduces pedal travel as the caliper body does not deflect. This is only really noticeable under Track Day conditions though. For Autocross the factory floating calipers are more than sufficient.

The R32 calipers may offer a slightly better feel ( stiffer pedal ) as they are a two piston design and this stabilizes the pad a little better. They are still a floating design though. 

The Tyrolsports bushings would be a good idea. ATE 200 is fine, so is Motul RBF 600.

Note: ATE had to remove the Blue coloring due to DOT regulations ( in the USA ) which state that brake fluid can only be clear or amber in color. The blue dye did not affect seals. Originally ATE sold this to road racers only, which was not a problem, DOT wise. However, with the increase in Track Days a lot of people started using this DD cars, which ran against the DOT regulations. Thus ATE was forced to pull the Blue colored line. F**kin' lawyers got involved again!! :banghead:


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Great info! So that pretty much rules out the R32 upgrade. What's the opinion on rotors?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Buy good quality rotors such as Zimmerman, Brembo OEM ( surprisingly affordable ) Wagner, Raybestos or Bendix. Stay away from cheap s**t like Powerslot or other Taiwanese made garbage. Stay away from ALL aftermarket drilled rotors . They are s**t material and will crack from stress risers at the drilled holes.

Slotted rotors are OK, but again, a lot of the aftermarket rotors are made out of inferior materials. Slotted rotors offer no advantage in any scenario other than Road Racing. Their main purpose is to provide " rotor " wiping in wet races ( Race cars don't have rotor shields ) and to provide a release point for " Out gassing " . Neither of which is a situation that you would encounter on a DD or Autocross car.


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

Wait... 1300 for R32 upgrade? I paid 450 for mine, including the Tyrol upgrade (a.k.a. $50 dollar BMW 7 series OEM part from GermanParts). 

Just curious, how do you know the rears are so great?

Additionally, and I will say up front that I haven't been on the track with my TT, you're basing your decision against them based on a guy using a non-comparable setup to the R32 upgrade (his setup being the same TT caliper with a larger rotor (end of discussion), without the Tyrol upgrade, and on a car with completely different driving dynamics) and you think pad taper applies to your situation. With all due respect, I don't think his experience is relevant.

It sounds like you're set on the Porsche boxster upgrade, but it would be much cheaper and just as effective, if not better (especially for AutoX, no worries about heat buildup), to go with the R32 upgrade. I found my GFs 3.2TT brakes (same as R32) to be exceptional on her car and even better on a 1.8T (lighter), when I upgraded mine.

All that being said, interested in this setup? PM me.

http://www.2bennett.com/body_tt.brakes_coilover.html?


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Yeah, I saw that BMW 7-series part on German Auto Parts as well. Are there dust boots on those like OEM or can I re-use mine? What else is the difference between the TyrolSport kit and those?

and I thought the 312mm A8 rotor was the same size as the 225 TT/GTI 20th/GTI 337 312mm rotor. 

Also since the 225 rears were the same as the MKIV R32/3.2 TT/GTI 20th/GTI 337 that there was not a bargain replacement for those and should be pretty darn good.

So are you saying that the R32/3.2TT front upgrade would be better than the Boxster path? Since I need new rotors anyway, now is the time to decide (334mm for the R32/3.2 vs 312mm for the 225/Boxster upgrade). Know of a good place for Zimmerman/Brembo front blanks for the 3.2/R32? All I found so far was OEM uncoated for ~$210/ea, that's crazy expensive when I can get Zimmerman coated 225 rotors for $215/all 4! Also used R32 calipers are going for $400, same as the Boxsters. Anyone know of a better deal?

I'm not set on anything, which is why I'm asking the TT community for their input. :thumbup:


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

You can reuse. 

Tyrol just added dust caps. Nbd.

In terms of price (overall cost, maintenance, etc. vs. performance) and your application, I'd go with the R32 hands down. OEM+ FTW. 

Check out these guys for rotors:

http://www.rotorpros.net


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

I just got a quote for $280 w performance ceramic pads. That's front and rear. I believe they use Hawk pads.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

R32 rotors are pricey and HEAVY. I'd go with Porsche calipers on stock rotors, which is what I run. MUCH improved pedal feel and modulation, ability to swap pads without taking the caliper off, and more pad options. :thumbup:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

20v master said:


> R32 rotors are pricey and HEAVY. I'd go with Porsche calipers on stock rotors, which is what I run. MUCH improved pedal feel and modulation, ability to swap pads without taking the caliper off, and more pad options. :thumbup:


Bingo :thumbup:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

DeckManDubs said:


> Bingo :thumbup:


Agreed. Boxster calipers can be found for a good price. Justy gotta search. FWIW mine are boxster calipers with Zimmerman rotors and pads. ECS lines and adapter bracket. I noticed the difference in pedal right away. If your gonna piece together a set, I vote for the red set.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Kacz07 said:


> (Snip )
> Additionally, and I will say up front that I haven't been on the track with my TT, you're basing your decision against them based on a guy using a non-comparable setup to the R32 upgrade (his setup being the same TT caliper with a larger rotor (end of discussion), without the Tyrol upgrade, and on a car with completely different driving dynamics) and you think pad taper applies to your situation. With all due respect, I don't think his experience is relevant.
> 
> http://www.2bennett.com/body_tt.brakes_coilover.html?


I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. I think my experience is VERY relevant.You state right of the bat that you haven't used you car for track days. I've been DD, Autocrossing and Track Daying a car with essentially TT brakes for over 6 years. How is that NOT relevant? 

Rotor size on my car, 312mm is exactly the same as TT's. OEM Caliper is same as TT. So that is relevant. A cars " driving dynamics " ( what sort of gobbledy goop is that? ) has nothing to do with brake pad taper. Pad taper is mainly a function of caliper stiffness, pad force distribution, pad compound and rotor temperature. Putting aside pad compound for a moment, the big factor with pad taper, in regards to caliper design, is stiffness. The Tyrolsports bushing help very little on Road Course. I've tried them BTW!!. The main problem is that a floating caliper is inherently " flexy" ( for road racing ).

OP asked if upgrading to R32 calipers or Porsche calipers would be an advantage for *Daily use and Autocross. *My answer...based on 35+years of Road Racing, Hillclimbs and Autocross is no. Quote from OP for those who skipped over this:



> So using the car as a DD, occasional auto-x/ twisty carving, aiming for 350-400hp in the end, are the Boxster or R32 upgrade really worth the extra cost? Am I even going to max out the OEM brakes w/ good rotors/pads/fluid? *If OEM is really good enough, I'll put my money elsewhere... I'm looking for effective-ness.*


The stock TT brake system is more than adequate for a DD and Autocross. It is not worth the upgrade if you are on a budget. The Porsche brakes on my A4 offer absolutely zero increase in braking ability when used as a daily driver and at an Autocross. 

Bottom line. Autocross is not that difficult on the braking system. ANY properly maintained OEM system is usually more than adequate for Autocross. Period.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

warranty225cpe said:


> Agreed. Boxster calipers can be found for a good price. Justy gotta search. FWIW mine are boxster calipers with Zimmerman rotors and pads. ECS lines and adapter bracket. I noticed the difference in pedal right away. If your gonna piece together a set, I vote for the red set.


Be careful with OEM Boxster Red calipers. Those are off the Boxster S and piston size is larger than the regular Boxster. You have to keep the piston area close to the original factory sizing or you run into brake biasing problems and possible pedal travel problems ( longer travel due to increased pedal travel. 

WilWood's tech site has all the info on how to calculate piston area. Whenever you are making a Caliper upgrade it is extremely important to keep the piston area as close to possible as the original. 

http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechCaliperTip.aspx


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Be careful with OEM Boxster Red calipers. Those are off the Boxster S and piston size is larger than the regular Boxster. You have to keep the piston area close to the original factory sizing or you run into brake biasing problems and possible pedal travel problems ( longer travel due to increased pedal travel.
> 
> WilWood's tech site has all the info on how to calculate piston area. Whenever you are making a Caliper upgrade it is extremely important to keep the piston area as close to possible as the original.
> 
> http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechCaliperTip.aspx


No, they are from a a boxster. Not an "S"


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

See below.



Chickenman35 said:


> I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. I think my experience is VERY relevant.You state right of the bat that you haven't used you car for track days. I've been DD, Autocrossing and Track Daying a car with essentially TT brakes for over 6 years. How is that NOT relevant?
> 
> *He asking about R32 brakes on a TT. Did you use them? Do you drive a TT? They're different than TT brakes your A4 (is that a TT?) had and your racing experience you mentioned, with the exception of auto cross, is different...*
> 
> ...


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

20v master said:


> R32 rotors are pricey and HEAVY. I'd go with Porsche calipers on stock rotors, which is what I run. MUCH improved pedal feel and modulation, ability to swap pads without taking the caliper off, and more pad options. :thumbup:


280 is pricey for front and rears with pads? What does it cost for Boxster setups?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Kacz07 said:


> I just got a quote for $280 w performance ceramic pads. That's front and rear. I believe they use Hawk pads.


R32 front rotors are ~$400/pr depending on where you buy them, so I'd verify that that price is for 13.1" rotors and not 12.3" or even 11.3". The 256mm rears you can find for under $75/pr, but I'd be weary of an online retailer and those prices.


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

20v master said:


> R32 front rotors are ~$400/pr depending on where you buy them, so I'd verify that that price is for 13.1" rotors and not 12.3" or even 11.3". The 256mm rears you can find for under $75/pr, but I'd be weary of an online retailer and those prices.


I quoted for an 04 R32, so there would be no mix up. Those guys are cheap with great reviews across all platforms.

What do rotors and pads cost for boxster upgrades?


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

20v master said:


> R32 rotors are pricey and HEAVY. I'd go with Porsche calipers on stock rotors, which is what I run. MUCH improved pedal feel and modulation, ability to swap pads without taking the caliper off, and more pad options. :thumbup:


Can't argue with the weight. They are anchors vs. the stock, but that's relative. That's why I picked up the 2bennett setup, but can only install when I get extended bolts and spacers or new wheels, due to clearance issues (if I decide to install at all). That would be a sweet track setup.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Boxster pads cost ~150-350 depending on what your looking for.


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

So with all the talk about do it right, do it once, I think I've settled making this a 2 stage upgrade due to time constraints.
Since I can re-use my rotors and to for-go the weight of the R32 setup, I'm going to do a OEM refresh first (Zimmerman blanks, Hawk HPS, Tyrol or Bimmer Stiffening Kit and ATE 200).
Then as money becomes more readily available and if the OEM are just not what I'm looking for, then I can always grab a set of Porsche Boxster calipers and adapters. Sourcing all the parts for the kit is going to take a bit as I'll want to rebuild and powder coat or re-paint the calipers, and I'm gonna need brakes soon.

So I've not heard any opinions on the stainless steel lines. Anyone care to share? What about the rears to the calipers as the ECS kit only contains the fronts and the middle lines. If I was to do them now, can I re-use the fronts w/ the Boxster calipers? What about that ever-so-elusive banjo bolt? 

Thanks for all the input so far. :thumbup:


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

You can always drill and slot for reduced weight.

Gl with your setup. You'll be happy either way.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Kacz07 said:


> You can always drill and slot for reduced weight.


Worst advice ever. 

Yes, you can reuse the front SS lines with P calipers, and they're a good cheap addition.


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

I would only slot mine.

I just don't understand why major performance manufacturers do this and it's always shunned in forums. I'm well aware of cracking/warping and issues with drilling, but what's the logic of the big guys?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm going to give the OP some advice if he decides to upgrade to Porsche calipers later and possibly track day your car. *Buy ONLY steel adapter brackets*. Never aluminium...no matter how good the manufacturer says their aluminium brackets are. This is one area where you NEVER EVER want to have a failure and steel brackets are a lot stronger than aluminium ones . I used Apikol's on my car.


I'm not going to argue with Fan boys or posers about this. Just do it. It could save your life. I have seen the results of an aluminium brake bracket failure..and the results where not pretty ( Car went over a 200 ft cliff at Knox Mountain. Driver fortunately lived. Car didn't. )

If anyone wants to argue this, go buy a copy of The Brake Handbook by Fred Puhn. Read it then read it again.

http://www.amazon.ca/Brake-Handbook-Fred-Puhn/dp/0895862328


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Re: Banjo bolts. You will seldom see these on a professional Road Racing car. At least not one with a decent crew chief. Two sealing interfaces to leak instead of 1, but the biggest issue is a stone or piece of tire rubber ( Clag ) that can fly up, hit the banjo and loosen it. That scenario is not nearly as likely with a straight AN fitting.

I posted a thread about a year ago with Part numbers to use straight fit AN fittings for Porsche calipers. All are common Russel. Goodridge or Earl's part number. -3 AN Teflon lined SS hoses, with straight fittings come pre-made from these manufacturers much cheaper than the ones your Typical venders. 

I'll find the link tomorrow, but right now I'm going to bed.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> I'm going to give the OP some advice if he decides to upgrade to Porsche calipers later and possibly track day your car. *Buy ONLY steel adapter brackets*. Never aluminium...no matter how good the manufacturer says their aluminium brackets are. This is one area where you NEVER EVER want to have a failure and steel brackets are a lot stronger than aluminium ones . I used Apikol's on my car.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with Fan boys or posers about this. Just do it. It could save your life. I have seen the results of an aluminium brake bracket failure..and the results where not pretty ( Car went over a 200 ft cliff at Knox Mountain. Driver fortunately lived. Car didn't. )
> ...



Good point I want to stress a little more. Most of the companies have been using aluminum due to its 1. Cheap to machine 2. Easier to hold tolerances 3. Allows boasting of lightness.

Safety should be *#1* when ever touching brakes and suspensions. 

Now most companies say that the brackets will be fine due to the fact they use stainless steel helicoils or threadserts. They will still fail!!! Due to the design, the aluminum will expand at a different rate than the helicoil or threadsert thus allowing it to loosen up and back out. 

Thus the reason I am resorting to Titanium for my brackets to save weight and still maintain strength. 

3D printed prototype I have been working on.











Chickenman35 said:


> Re: Banjo bolts. You will seldom see these on a professional Road Racing car. At least not one with a decent crew chief. Two sealing interfaces to leak instead of 1, but the biggest issue is a stone or piece of tire rubber ( Clag ) that can fly up, hit the banjo and loosen it. That scenario is not nearly as likely with a straight AN fitting.
> 
> I posted a thread about a year ago with Part numbers to use straight fit AN fittings for Porsche calipers. All are common Russel. Goodridge or Earl's part number. -3 AN Teflon lined SS hoses, with straight fittings come pre-made from these manufacturers much cheaper than the ones your Typical venders.
> 
> I'll find the link tomorrow, but right now I'm going to bed.


Agreed.

Even if the stock uses banjo, if your taking the line off it is a good time to upgrade to the correct and better operating setup. Even to have some custom lines made that are DOT will only cost about $100.


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

My custom rear brake setup (FWD). Steel brackets and -AN fittings.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Late__Apex said:


> My custom rear brake setup (FWD). Steel brackets and -AN fittings.


Id like to hear some specifics on your setup. Start a thread. I wana know how you got the E-brake to work..


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

No e-brake. Custom fabricated brackets and Wilwood off-the-shelf components. 

13" fronts, 11.75" rears. 2-piece rotors, 4-piston calipers.

Fronts:










Front bracket:


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## Kacz07 (Mar 4, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> I'm going to give the OP some advice if he decides to upgrade to Porsche calipers later and possibly track day your car. *Buy ONLY steel adapter brackets*. Never aluminium...no matter how good the manufacturer says their aluminium brackets are. This is one area where you NEVER EVER want to have a failure and steel brackets are a lot stronger than aluminium ones . I used Apikol's on my car.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with Fan boys or posers about this. Just do it. It could save your life. I have seen the results of an aluminium brake bracket failure..and the results where not pretty ( Car went over a 200 ft cliff at Knox Mountain. Driver fortunately lived. Car didn't. )
> ...


Thanks for the link. Any person who wants to mess with safety at extreme conditions is not a fanboy or poseur, they're just dead.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Yeah, the "fanboy poser" bs can go somewhere else. This is probably one of the best segments on Vortex as far as quality people go. No reason to get on each other about tech debates. Save that for when someone wants to call you out on your spelling or grammar.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

http://www.apikol.com/index.php/a3-vw-mkv-mkvi-boxster-brake-brackets.html


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

18T_BT said:


> http://www.apikol.com/index.php/a3-vw-mkv-mkvi-boxster-brake-brackets.html


Those are MK5 ones. The hub bolt spacing is almost 1" more than the MK4/TT setup.

IIRC B5 and TT have the same hub bolt pattern. They would be more like this one.
http://www.apikol.com/index.php/products/braking/b5-a4-boxster-brake-brackets.html


Boxster bolt spacing is 130mm and the TT hub is 95mm.


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

I can't find any proof that the hub spacing is the same on the TT and the B5. Are we sure these will fit and are these adapters the preferred choice over the others?


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## jetta_2.slow (Feb 18, 2008)

max13b2 said:


> I can't find any proof that the hub spacing is the same on the TT and the B5. Are we sure these will fit and are these adapters the preferred choice over the others?


B5 A4 and TT are the same, it's pretty common to see B5's with TT caliper carriers in the front running A8 rotors.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

max13b2 said:


> I can't find any proof that the hub spacing is the same on the TT and the B5. Are we sure these will fit and are these adapters the preferred choice over the others?


Simple way would be to call Apikol and ask them straight up...

Edit: Just did a bit of research. Hub offset on the TT rotors and A8 rotors looks to be the same. Only difference is bolt pattern. TT is 5 x 100 mm. B5 A4, Passat and A8 are 5 x 112mm.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

max13b2 said:


> I can't find any proof that the hub spacing is the same on the TT and the B5. Are we sure these will fit and are these adapters the preferred choice over the others?


B5's are also 95mm


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Gracias!


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