# 2000 Golf Gti 1.8T AGU engine - is there a standalone solution?



## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

Good day everyone, 

I have been searching for a few months for a standalone solution. I have been looking at a few ecu's. I have tried to contact lugtronic via email and I have not gotten a response to date. 
hat is approximately 1 month now.

034 from what I have seen is close to as plug and play as I can get. Is there any truth to this?

In my searching I have read the 350z uses the came haltech harness connectors. Is that true?

So basically what I am looking for is a plug and play alternative that makes me retain most if not all of my dashboard functions and I can try for some big power. My goal is 450hp as starters.

If there is anyone who knows of a company or person that can make a plug and play harness regardless of the tuning unit with the exception of megasquirt, I will be happy to purchase one once the price is not something to kill my wallet.


Any help is appreciated.

Gavin Simpson


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## Harry Sax (Apr 21, 2011)

email [email protected] AND [email protected]

if you would like me to call/text him, LMK. we texted just today infact.

shoot me your info (email, name, number) via PM and i will get it to him.

plug and play. with base mapping for your setup.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

Harry Sax said:


> email [email protected] AND [email protected]
> 
> if you would like me to call/text him, LMK. we texted just today infact.
> 
> ...



PM sent, thanks


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

:thumbup:


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

kamahao112 said:


> :thumbup:



Sent you a PM


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

Islandsilvia said:


> Sent you a PM


:thumbup:


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## @lq! (Dec 1, 2009)

i think you can use the vems standalone..what kind of have you setup ?


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

@lq! said:


> i think you can use the vems standalone..what kind of have you setup ?


Sorry I took so long to reply. 

it;s a mk4 gti 1.8t with the agu engine code. Nothing special yet. If I can get a plug and play unit, then I will purchase.


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## @lq! (Dec 1, 2009)

yes i understand. i have a agu engine.. and my friend used to vems standalone own cars. he has a agu engine.. it's pnp.. he's happy with it..


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Harry Sax said:


> email [email protected] AND [email protected]
> 
> if you would like me to call/text him, LMK. we texted just today infact.
> 
> ...


Will lugtronic still work with all the factory dash stuff?


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

@lq! said:


> yes i understand. i have a agu engine.. and my friend used to vems standalone own cars. he has a agu engine.. it's pnp.. he's happy with it..


hey shoot me your number or bb pin in a pm.

you got whats app? I am in the Caribbean that's why I am asking for the contact info


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

@lq! said:


> yes i understand. i have a agu engine.. and my friend used to vems standalone own cars. he has a agu engine.. it's pnp.. he's happy with it..


is he a member and can share some info? or can any member who has a vems unit that is a plug and play for the AGU engine or can offer some advice please chime in.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

anyone else care to chime in?


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

Islandsilvia said:


> anyone else care to chime in?


You can read my recent Rebild thread, im going stand alone on Agu, using a much used box, build in Denmark, also designed for racecars, it has option with oem fitment build to our harnes, All you need is a mapsensor, All other sensors are the oem, so easy fitment and fully functionel with oem tacho with keep off all functions including on board computer etc.


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## @lq! (Dec 1, 2009)

Islandsilvia said:


> is he a member and can share some info? or can any member who has a vems unit that is a plug and play for the AGU engine or can offer some advice please chime in.


i don't have any information him vwvortex account. If you need any information, i will give to you some details.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> You can read my recent Rebild thread, im going stand alone on Agu, using a much used box, build in Denmark, also designed for racecars, it has option with oem fitment build to our harnes, All you need is a mapsensor, All other sensors are the oem, so easy fitment and fully functionel with oem tacho with keep off all functions including on board computer etc.


can you send me a link to the website where you bought the management please.


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## @lq! (Dec 1, 2009)

Islandsilvia said:


> can you send me a link to the website where you bought the management please.


yes.. i want to some detaisl about that..

Thank you


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

Islandsilvia said:


> can you send me a link to the website where you bought the management please.


Its an raceengineer who builds them and you have to ordre by mail, you cand read about it on www.fartstrup.dk

You can also contact www.jvk-tuning.dk

Their is pic in my thread of my box


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> You can read my recent Rebild thread, im going stand alone on Agu, using a much used box, build in Denmark, also designed for racecars, it has option with oem fitment build to our harnes, All you need is a mapsensor, All other sensors are the oem, so easy fitment and fully functionel with oem tacho with keep off all functions including on board computer etc.


I have been looking at your build for a little while now


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> Its an raceengineer who builds them and you have to ordre by mail, you cand read about it on www.fartstrup.dk
> 
> You can also contact www.jvk-tuning.dk
> 
> Their is pic in my thread of my box


what was the cost of the unit in USD? 

and would you be able to contact him for me or list some of the specs of the ecu for me please.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

Islandsilvia said:


> what was the cost of the unit in USD?
> 
> and would you be able to contact him for me or list some of the specs of the ecu for me please.


current dkk exchange rate to us dollars 1,942.24


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

anyone else, got any suggestions.................as to what else can be done? 

anyone with the AGU engine code run a unitronic mafless tune?


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

any unitronic users out there?

I would like to know what you did for the agu enginge.

How much if for a uni tune?

What do you have to do to convert from maf to map?


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

http://www.raceline-ws.com/rlwa_18_adapter


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

kamahao112 said:


> http://www.raceline-ws.com/rlwa_18_adapter



thanks alot...................I just stumbled across a haltech interceptor. Going to see if that is another viable option as well.


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## Beaviz (Jul 23, 2010)

As far as I know Unitronic software is only developed for 1.8T ECUs that are Bosch Motronic 7.5. AGUs use an older and less advanced Bosch Motronic ECU version 3.8.3. I am almost 100% sure that you can not convert the 3.8.3 to only use a MAP sensor or run without MAF.


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

Beaviz said:


> As far as I know Unitronic software is only developed for 1.8T ECUs that are Bosch Motronic 7.5. AGUs use an older and less advanced Bosch Motronic ECU version 3.8.3. I am almost 100% sure that you can not convert the 3.8.3 to only use a MAP sensor or run without MAF.


Thats for sure - been thru all possibilities on that one.....

I have installed AEM mapsensor, and going for the Fartstrup box with maf delete.

The fartstrup box - more known as FJM/FFJ box is as mentioned before plug and play with oem harness and sensors not to mention cluster/tacho and key features including the oem safety system, you need to ad the map sensor, thats it.

The box it self cost 1200-1300 usd, with build in to an agu harness and box its another 700 usd, bare in mind denmark is already an expensive country and the US vs DK/euro has not helped being a US importer. with that said, everything is hand build and thats more expensive than having robots in china doing the same thing.

The software is free to download and try, you can explore the possibilities with that as well.

Software runs windows.

to mention a few super great features:

Anti lag
ALS - anti lag shift (that actually works as inteded)
Build in dyno system (works extremly well)
Launch control

A basic map can be installed to work on, he has done lots of tunes for all kind of setups 

To mention one of the very extreem agu setup, JVK-tuning´s own car puts down 730hp and uses this box. 1.8T agu, no big bore or anything - engine is of course build etc., but oem crank and piston bore including compression.

So its well tested, but it is expensive i know.


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

Wow, if we're talking about spending 1+K on a setup..

what about the talk of converting the ME 3.8/5 Equipped car to ME 7.5? buy the harnesses and ECU off a junk yard, you cant get much more plug and play than that.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

well I would like to do the conversion but the problem is I am not in nor from the US. So it's not a viable option for me.


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

If it was that simple, i would already have done so - lots of sensors runing either wide or narrowband 1.8T´s etc., needs to be changed/modified not to mention we are dbc and not dbw which me7.5´s are not. and without discussion i would never go dbw over dbc, so thats out of the question for me....


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

who said anything about the U.S? How isn't it a viable option for you?

All 2001.5/2 1.8T Mk4's have ME 7.5 engine management, Are you saying there isn't any newer then a 2000 Mk4 in your area? No junk yards? used auto parts sellers? Dealerships? Cmon now.




DK_GTI_racer said:


> If it was that simple, i would already have done so - lots of sensors runing either wide or narrowband 1.8T´s etc., needs to be changed/modified not to mention we are dbc and not dbw which me7.5´s are not. and without discussion i would never go dbw over dbc, so thats out of the question for me....




when did this topic become about you?

Sure, you need to swap the 4 window cam sensor, Throttle body, engine harness, Acessory harness and o/2.... But is that more work than getting standalone, wiring it in, and tuning to get it to run correctly?


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> who said anything about the U.S? How isn't it a viable option for you?
> 
> All 2001.5/2 1.8T Mk4's have ME 7.5 engine management, Are you saying there isn't any newer then a 2000 Mk4 in your area? No junk yards? used auto parts sellers? Dealerships? Cmon now.


the problem is we are dbc and not dbw, so changing harness its not all, not to mention cluster/tacho and throttlebody - so for me going thru all the cost of harness, cluster and throttlebody conversion not to mention i wont go dbw is in fact more expensive, and the fmj box has more advanced features


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> who said anything about the U.S? How isn't it a viable option for you?
> 
> All 2001.5/2 1.8T Mk4's have ME 7.5 engine management, Are you saying there isn't any newer then a 2000 Mk4 in your area? No junk yards? used auto parts sellers? Dealerships? Cmon now.
> 
> ...


Its not - im speaking my openion and why i choose one solutions instead of others and point out the issues im seeing...

anyways, yes that is more work....not to mention i rather get a professionel map done custom and on location


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> who said anything about the U.S? How isn't it a viable option for you?
> 
> All 2001.5/2 1.8T Mk4's have ME 7.5 engine management, Are you saying there isn't any newer then a 2000 Mk4 in your area? No junk yards? used auto parts sellers? Dealerships? Cmon now.
> 
> ...


they do have them, unfortunately we do have junkyards but we are predominantly a japanese car society and anything else is minor. the other 1.8t's here are later than 2000 and are also dbc. So i am looking for another plug and play option.

What type of management are you running? remapped factory ecu?


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> the problem is we are dbc and not dbw, so changing harness its not all, not to mention cluster/tacho and throttlebody - so for me going thru all the cost of harness, cluster and throttlebody conversion not to mention i wont go dbw is in fact more expensive, and the fmj box has more advanced features





DK_GTI_racer said:


> Its not - im speaking my openion and why i choose one solutions instead of others and point out the issues im seeing...
> 
> anyways, yes that is more work....not to mention i rather get a professionel map done custom and on location


The Cluster would only need to be changed if you're still using the Anti-theft on the ECU, Defeat it and its no longer an option. 

Anyway, a Pro tune is great, I used to hang around a known shop in my area... Within the first 20-30 mins he would get the tune in the ball park and driveable.... But when the weather would change, or the motor would wear a little, the customer would be back to get it re-tuned, etc, etc.
$150/hour with a 3 hour min per session. 

the stock ECU has all of this done, works from -45ºC to ~+70ºC tuned 100%. 
a "chip" can be had for ~$300 to bring the stock setup to 20PSI while still maintaining the 100% drive ability. 





Islandsilvia said:


> they do have them, unfortunately we do have junkyards but we are predominantly a japanese car society and anything else is minor. the other 1.8t's here are later than 2000 and are also dbc. So i am looking for another plug and play option.
> 
> What type of management are you running? remapped factory ecu?


Really? I was unaware of any area with 2002+ DBC equipped VW's.. Where are you located?

I've got a factory remapped Mk4, corrado, and working on a "Custom" tune for a B5 passat, All DBW, all wideband.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> The Cluster would only need to be changed if you're still using the Anti-theft on the ECU, Defeat it and its no longer an option.
> 
> Anyway, a Pro tune is great, I used to hang around a known shop in my area... Within the first 20-30 mins he would get the tune in the ball park and driveable.... But when the weather would change, or the motor would wear a little, the customer would be back to get it re-tuned, etc, etc.
> $150/hour with a 3 hour min per session.
> ...



I am from the Caribbean. I live in Antigua.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

has anyone ever piggy back of the original ecu? get an aftermarket ecu to handle everything minus timing and fuel


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Does not work at all due to the adaptable nature of the stock ecu...
> 
> While there are standalone options out there, you more then likely will want an off the shelf eurodyne / unitronic chip tune. :thumbup:


well the problem is, I was speaking to a uni dealer and they told me the biggest file I would be able to go to on my ecu is the 415cc file. Now this is very disappointing to me. 

I will tell you the numbers on the ecu, maybe you have a simple suggestion for me. 06a 906 018 CG

a big turbo file or standalone will do @ this point


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> The Cluster would only need to be changed if you're still using the Anti-theft on the ECU, Defeat it and its no longer an option.
> 
> Anyway, a Pro tune is great, I used to hang around a known shop in my area... Within the first 20-30 mins he would get the tune in the ball park and driveable.... But when the weather would change, or the motor would wear a little, the customer would be back to get it re-tuned, etc, etc.
> $150/hour with a 3 hour min per session.
> ...


First off a BT tuned car with a factory remap on a dbc that stock dont have a map sensor is never going to be 100% perfect, also the maf sensor is going to loose its accouracy and wear faster.

second i dont know what solution you are refeering too, other then of course the stock ecu´s adaptability, but living in a country with very changing climate like I do, its important that the ecu can adapt - the fartstrup box does exactly that as well, so only one tune is needed. as mentioned before it keeps and uses all factory sensors and all oem functions still 100% - this is why im going down that rute.

Its expensive and their are other options, such as mentioned converting to dbw - but having tried the responsive action on dbw im never going that rute ever....their is an reason 034 sells conversion to DBC .


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You dont need an adaptable ecu, you just need one thats set up properly for baro/temp corrections. Not hard on most standalone ecus. 

Shame the op doesnt want ms, its easy on non-obd/dbc setups.


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

Bosch moved from DBC to DBW for a reason. DBW system has A LOT of advantages over DBC and there is absolutely NO loss of responsiveness. You can actually tune ECU to be more responsive (to open throttle body more than DBC would) under different conditions.

For ECU to calculate TB angle and for signal to travel to TB to signalize the opening takes like a fraction of millisecond. All stories about DBC being more responsive are bull**** stories. :screwy:

All modern management systems today are DBW and ME7 ECU happens to be one of the best engine management devices ever made really. It's a breakthrough in engine management industry and there is NO reason for anyone to ever use "standalone" simply because there is nothing any standalone system can do that ME7 can not do BETTER.


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

A few tech articles describing why ME7 is unbeatable...well complicated but unbeatable:

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Bosch-MEMotronic-System-Part-1/A_108379/article.html

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Bosch-MEMotronic-System-Part-2/A_108380/article.html


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

mescaline said:


> A few tech articles describing why ME7 is unbeatable...well complicated but unbeatable:
> 
> http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Bosch-MEMotronic-System-Part-1/A_108379/article.html
> 
> http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Bosch-MEMotronic-System-Part-2/A_108380/article.html


Excellent reads!

I added them to the FAQ. Any 1.8t enthusiast should read these. It will grant you deeper understanding about why your engine does what it does.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You dont need an adaptable ecu, you just need one thats set up properly for baro/temp corrections. Not hard on most standalone ecus.
> 
> Shame the op doesnt want ms, its easy on non-obd/dbc setups.



well if you can assemble/acquire a plug and play system for the AGU gti's you would be a God sent. 

Do you think you would be able to do something like that or to assemble a system comparable to a haltech PS1000?


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

mescaline said:


> Bosch moved from DBC to DBW for a reason. DBW system has A LOT of advantages over DBC and there is absolutely NO loss of responsiveness. You can actually tune ECU to be more responsive (to open throttle body more than DBC would) under different conditions.
> 
> For ECU to calculate TB angle and for signal to travel to TB to signalize the opening takes like a fraction of millisecond. All stories about DBC being more responsive are bull**** stories. :screwy:
> 
> All modern management systems today are DBW and ME7 ECU happens to be one of the best engine management devices ever made really. It's a breakthrough in engine management industry and there is NO reason for anyone to ever use "standalone" simply because there is nothing any standalone system can do that ME7 can not do BETTER.


Thats BS - sorry but the DBW will never be as responsive - the reason they moved away is simple, everyone was switching over and with the easy sw calculation to make what ever power limits or optimize needed from the factory, the tb can act as wanted - and how many with dbw needs to occasionaly run a TB allignment? not needed on dbc, not only that but their is significant different TB action- just try one and you will see, i have tried dbw - not impressed. JVK hated he modified to run dbw to get the RS4 tb on his, and still miss the TB action on dbc....

ALS - anti lag shift is for instance something that actually works on stand alone units like fartstrup, i have talked to one user here that runs one of the disgussed ME7 sw with anti lag shift, and it works like crap...so yes i would think their is things an stand alone unit can and vice versa - as i said before, if i had ME7 and was dbw i wouldnt bother going stand alone with the great options out their...

The OP should do whatever he feels is easiest and best, but above is my stand points and as AGU dbc ancient ME3.8 ecu runner im without of doubt happy to be getting such a great and easy switch as this is.


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## BlueSleeper (Nov 9, 2002)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> Thats BS - sorry but the DBW will never be as responsive -


I'm running DBW on a Motec M800 and I can see full swings of the TB at close to 10Hz and single percent adjustments well over 1KHz. It is currently running at 8KHz closed loop. I have the TB set to be 100% open at 80% pedal at a ramp rate so it has more precision at lower throttle angles, the extra 20% of pedal goes into feeding positive trim into boost over the normal amount. I've also created configs that use the pedal to determine requested MPG and the TB rides that requested amount independent of the pedal (close to 60mpg over 100 miles in town was my record). I also currently have decelerating antilag (ORB) setup to open the TB when within a certain rpm range and decellerating so that it gives the engine a bit of extra air to kick antilag when I'm about to take a sharp turn. I could even set it to rev match, using the TB, for me if I had a strain gauge on the shifter. There are plenty of cool things you can do with DBW, and it definately is more responsive than my foot to position changes.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Islandsilvia said:


> well if you can assemble/acquire a plug and play system for the AGU gti's you would be a God sent.
> 
> Do you think you would be able to do something like that or to assemble a system comparable to a haltech PS1000?


Yes MS3/3x could do all what PS1000 does and more. If you can get me a wiring diagram and stock ECU connector it can be made to be PnP.

DBW is great, until it does something you don't want it to. Drives me nuts on my stg2 Uni tune, I just want the thing to do what my foot does instead of moving around trying to think about what it thinks I'm trying to do.


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> Thats BS - sorry but the DBW will never be as responsive - the reason they moved away is simple, everyone was switching over and with the easy sw calculation to make what ever power limits or optimize needed from the factory, the tb can act as wanted - and how many with dbw needs to occasionaly run a TB allignment? not needed on dbc, not only that but their is significant different TB action- just try one and you will see, i have tried dbw - not impressed. JVK hated he modified to run dbw to get the RS4 tb on his, and still miss the TB action on dbc....
> 
> ALS - anti lag shift is for instance something that actually works on stand alone units like fartstrup, i have talked to one user here that runs one of the disgussed ME7 sw with anti lag shift, and it works like crap...so yes i would think their is things an stand alone unit can and vice versa - as i said before, if i had ME7 and was dbw i wouldnt bother going stand alone with the great options out their...
> 
> The OP should do whatever he feels is easiest and best, but above is my stand points and as AGU dbc ancient ME3.8 ecu runner im without of doubt happy to be getting such a great and easy switch as this is.


They switched because everyone else was switching? DBW system was pioneered by Bosch because it allows ECU to actively control TB and provide driver better driving experience. It's a MODERN engine management system and it has ALL advantages over DBC. It allows ECU to shut down throttle body when needed to protect the engine or open it up more than what DBC system would do to compensate for various situation. None of this can be done on DBC cars.

I don't know if you knew this but throttle body alignment is done on DBC cars as well as long as there is no ISV system present.

There is NO LAG on DBW systems. What are you talking about? Why would there be any lag?

The feature you refer to is "no lift shift" and it works great on ME7. I tested it on my car. There is also 2step system that also works very well and also built inside ME7 (some custom routines by Eurodyne).

I really recommend reading those two articles I posted earlier. They sum it up pretty good and they take ME7.1 as an example there found in Audi S4 vehicles. ME7.5 is even better (mainly because of wideband O2).


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

this is how i feel about it ... if you are going to swap a harness you might as well go stand alone .. but if your car is equipped with the wide band ecu and harness then rock with that .....but you cant deny full "stand alone" has its advantages as well ... personally i rather run stand alone on my stuff


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I have an APR stg3 ECU. I have an APR EMCS programmer.

I thought that with that combo I could get my config dialed in with the help of APR. They send me files...I program the files. If there's a problem they send me an updated file and we go back and forth. Unfortunetely, they couldn't write me a good file...so now I have an APR stg3 ECU and EMCS programmer sitting in a box. What a waste of $


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Yes MS3/3x could do all what PS1000 does and more. If you can get me a wiring diagram and stock ECU connector it can be made to be PnP.
> 
> DBW is great, until it does something you don't want it to. Drives me nuts on my stg2 Uni tune, I just want the thing to do what my foot does instead of moving around trying to think about what it thinks I'm trying to do.


gimme a ball park figure.

and some rough thing the MS can do


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## BlueSleeper (Nov 9, 2002)

groggory said:


> I have an APR stg3 ECU. I have an APR EMCS programmer.
> 
> I thought that with that combo I could get my config dialed in with the help of APR. They send me files...I program the files. If there's a problem they send me an updated file and we go back and forth. Unfortunetely, they couldn't write me a good file...so now I have an APR stg3 ECU and EMCS programmer sitting in a box. What a waste of $


Yeah that is what happened to me as well. The stg3 tune for my car never made it past beta. Short of sending my car to them for a few months and being required to drop $10k to get the tune nothing ever came out of it. Thus I went standalone.


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

kamahao112 said:


> this is how i feel about it ... if you are going to swap a harness you might as well go stand alone .. but if your car is equipped with the wide band ecu and harness then rock with that .....but you cant deny full "stand alone" has its advantages as well ... personally i rather run stand alone on my stuff


What advantages?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Islandsilvia said:


> gimme a ball park figure.
> 
> and some rough thing the MS can do


Shoot me an email at [email protected] I dont want to clutter up the thread further. 

One of the advantages of standalone are the maps and settings are all well defined in their use/function, and its fairly simple to get a car running well no matter what the hardware. Even with decent software tools (maestro) there are still people that have problems with things like big throttles and large plenum intake manifolds. 

Standalone cant be too bad I got better mileage with my 3.2 in my mk3 then I can get with my 20v in the mk4 even though it turns 500rpm lower in 5th


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Shoot me an email at [email protected] I dont want to clutter up the thread further.
> 
> One of the advantages of standalone are the maps and settings are all well defined in their use/function, and its fairly simple to get a car running well no matter what the hardware. Even with decent software tools (maestro) there are still people that have problems with things like big throttles and large plenum intake manifolds.
> 
> Standalone cant be too bad I got better mileage with my 3.2 in my mk3 then I can get with my 20v in the mk4 even though it turns 500rpm lower in 5th


Email sent: Subject:- Megasquirt plug n play project


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

mescaline said:


> What advantages?


k now lets not really get into it but can you tell me that all "chip" tunes run perfect on every car ... no they cant that can come close 

so in other words they both have their advantages and down falls .... real standalone is usually faster and easier to use and stock me7 is good in all weather but sacrifices power and tuneability ....and tuning via maestro doent count ..lol slow a33 tuning process ...

so in MY personal opinion real stand alone is better wether is be Motec,Haltech,Vipec,Autronic,Lugtronic,DBC ,DBW vs (stock) ecu's ... i personally went lugtronic for my project ..i looked at the amount of time it would have taken to wire in the stock me7 harness and ecu...send the ecu to canaidia or deal with the meastro ordeal and it did not seem realistic to stay with the stock stuff for my car ...


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> First off a BT tuned car with a factory remap on a dbc that stock dont have a map sensor is never going to be 100% perfect, also the maf sensor is going to loose its accouracy and wear faster.
> 
> second i dont know what solution you are refeering too, other then of course the stock ecu´s adaptability, but living in a country with very changing climate like I do, its important that the ecu can adapt - the fartstrup box does exactly that as well, so only one tune is needed. as mentioned before it keeps and uses all factory sensors and all oem functions still 100% - this is why im going down that rute.
> 
> Its expensive and their are other options, such as mentioned converting to dbw - but having tried the responsive action on dbw im never going that rute ever....their is an reason 034 sells conversion to DBC .


Fartstrup can not adapt anything at all,it can run feedback from the lamda, from a written afr table(real time),just like all other standalones..but no adaptions long term/short term or anything.


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

kamahao112 said:


> k now lets not really get into it but can you tell me that all "chip" tunes run perfect on every car ... no they cant that can come close
> 
> so in other words they both have their advantages and down falls .... real standalone is usually faster and easier to use and stock me7 is good in all weather but sacrifices power and tuneability ....and tuning via maestro doent count ..lol slow a33 tuning process ...
> 
> so in MY personal opinion real stand alone is better wether is be Motec,Haltech,Vipec,Autronic,Lugtronic,DBC ,DBW vs (stock) ecu's ... i personally went lugtronic for my project ..i looked at the amount of time it would have taken to wire in the stock me7 harness and ecu...send the ecu to canaidia or deal with the meastro ordeal and it did not seem realistic to stay with the stock stuff for my car ...


You gave me no valid reason as to why standalone is better over ME7 ECU.

Are you telling me that all standalones run perfect on every car out of box? No they don't. They need to be tuned just like ME7 needs to be tuned. However given the same base values, ME7 will/should run better than standalone because of ME7s ability to adapt to certain level.

Aside from more tuners maybe being more friendly to tuning interfaces that some standalone devices provide and MAYBE real time map adjusting that some standalones provide (no need to re-flash every time you make a change), there is no real advantage over ME7. You can actually get real-time tuning on ME7 ECU as well if you know what you are doing : -)


ps: There is no Lugtronic standalone. Kevin is using VEMS standalone ECU (made in Hungary) and makes custom harness for it to work on our cars. That's all.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

mescaline said:


> You gave me no valid reason as to why standalone is better over ME7 ECU.
> 
> Are you telling me that all standalones run perfect on every car out of box? No they don't. They need to be tuned just like ME7 needs to be tuned. However given the same base values, ME7 will/should run better than standalone because of ME7s ability to adapt to certain level.
> 
> ...



ur right i dont know what im doing as far as tuning goes so guess what .. im going with something that is easier for me to under stand and use ... not all of us are me7 pros like you and for most people it is just to confusing to start to learn how to tune a car running me7 cus as you say will/should run better :thumbup: tuning is not my specialty nor am i trying to make it ... but you give me any car in any collision and i can take it from start to finish big or small .... that is my forte

and ps i know that kevin uses a vems ecu i have it sitting right here waiting to go in when i get some spare time ...


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

kamahao112 said:


> ur right i dont know what im doing as far as tuning goes so guess what .. im going with something that is easier for me to under stand and use ... not all of us are me7 pros like you and for most people it is just to confusing to start to learn how to tune a car running me7 cus as you say will/should run better :thumbup: tuning is not my specialty nor am i trying to make it ... but you give me any car in any collision and i can take it from start to finish big or small .... that is my forte
> 
> and ps i know that kevin uses a vems ecu i have it sitting right here waiting to go in when i get some spare time ...


But how are you going to tune your car using VEMS standalone if you don't understand anything about tuning? You realize that you will end up in the same situation? Just because you have standalone doesn't automagically means your car will run perfect. It still needs tuning...


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

mescaline said:


> But how are you going to tune your car using VEMS standalone if you don't understand anything about tuning? You realize that you will end up in the same situation? Just because you have standalone doesn't automagically means your car will run perfect. It still needs tuning...


because i have a friend who all he does is tune from civics to supra's .... yes he mainly tunes Japanese cars but has not touched to many german cars ... mainly by choice ... i have full confidence in him and i asked him if he would help me understand this stuff and he said no problem ....

so mescaline im sorry if it sounded like i was trying to pee in your cereal cus i wasnt but all i was trying to say is what may work for you may not be the best choice for someone else ... 
:thumbup:


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

kamahao112 said:


> because i have a friend who all he does is tune from civics to supra's .... yes he mainly tunes Japanese cars but has not touched to many german cars ... mainly by choice ... i have full confidence in him and i asked him if he would help me understand this stuff and he said no problem ....
> 
> so mescaline im sorry if it sounded like i was trying to pee in your cereal cus i wasnt but all i was trying to say is what may work for you may not be the best choice for someone else ...
> :thumbup:


I am just trying to make you realize that today, ME7 ecu is as OPEN and just as tuneable as standalone ECUs. What you did is buy VEMS standalone and replaced the STANDALONE you already had in your car. You wasted money...

Unless you are doing some engine swap and you absolutely need a standalone, i don't see a reason to get one over ME7. (even then you can get ME7 to work).

As I said before, give me ONE valid reason why I would get standalone over ME7? What is it that makes standalone ECU an advantage over our factory built ECUs?


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

mescaline said:


> I am just trying to make you realize that today, ME7 ecu is as OPEN and just as tuneable as standalone ECUs. What you did is buy VEMS standalone and replaced the STANDALONE you already had in your car. You wasted money...
> 
> Unless you are doing some engine swap and you absolutely need a standalone, i don't see a reason to get one over ME7. (even then you can get ME7 to work).
> 
> As I said before, give me ONE valid reason why I would get standalone over ME7? What is it that makes standalone ECU an advantage over our factory built ECUs?


 get it you do have a valid point and i even stated that if you are going to have to swap a harness go stand alone but if your car is a me7 then just rock with that .....My car IS a swap car its going into a corrado and the last time i checked my 92 vr6 corrado did not have ME7 that could run a 20v .. full wire tuck and fully shaved bay .. so "I" felt stand alone was a better option for me on my car ....

ok i got my VEMS from kevin for 1900 shipped to hawaii .. harness and ecu

if i stayed w/ the me7 and i have done me7 swaps before http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5129186-Cranberry
harness and ecu ...roughly 400 bucks and my time to go to a junk yard and pull it out ..prob a half day oh wait need the pedal harness and pedal better make that a full day 
wire it in to the corrado and clean the harness about 3 days 
buy big turbo software 900

so to me 1300 hundred dollars and 4 full days just to get it running is just not possible while i already work 7 days a week running my own shop working on customers cars and dont have much time to work on my own stuff so those 4 days would realistically prob turn into a couple of weeks ... do you get my point now ????


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Shoot me an email at [email protected] I dont want to clutter up the thread further.
> 
> One of the advantages of standalone are the maps and settings are all well defined in their use/function, and its fairly simple to get a car running well no matter what the hardware. Even with decent software tools (maestro) there are still people that have problems with things like big throttles and large plenum intake manifolds.
> 
> Standalone cant be too bad I got better mileage with my 3.2 in my mk3 then I can get with my 20v in the mk4 even though it turns 500rpm lower in 5th




still waiting on that email man.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yeah I got it but its more then a minute reply that I want to type on my phone.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Yeah I got it but its more then a minute reply that I want to type on my phone.


ok no probs man. Was just makign sure you didn't forget me


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Yeah I got it but its more then a minute reply that I want to type on my phone.


Have you gotten any time yet? 

also what's the difference between the megasquirt pro and the MS3?


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

VR6-GT42RS said:


> Fartstrup can not adapt anything at all,it can run feedback from the lamda, from a written afr table(real time),just like all other standalones..but no adaptions long term/short term or anything.


Jacob has told me it has the roughly the same adaptions as the oem ecu, but I will ask flemming about it. It should be able to adapt timing, fuel etc. - their should never be an issue where im lagging any adaption what so ever...



mescaline said:


> They switched because everyone else was switching? DBW system was pioneered by Bosch because it allows ECU to actively control TB and provide driver better driving experience. It's a MODERN engine management system and it has ALL advantages over DBC. It allows ECU to shut down throttle body when needed to protect the engine or open it up more than what DBC system would do to compensate for various situation. None of this can be done on DBC cars.
> 
> I don't know if you knew this but throttle body alignment is done on DBC cars as well as long as there is no ISV system present.
> 
> ...


You are arguing my arguments - as i stated, bosch went to DBW because it gives the modern option of TB adapting as wanted by factory, along the line with better cruise control - poweroutput the way they wanted etc.

As i already said a few times, if i was ME7 i wouldnt bother going stand alone - but im not, nor is the OP - changing harness is just as costly in total with tune as me going with farstrup box and im getting all i wanted and keeping all oem features still - only difference is my aggresive and accourate tune since im capable of switching out the MAf with MAP sensor plus alot of other features.

Well you mentioned eurodyne in regards of ALS - well the forum user who i disguessed this was infact running eurodyne and not at all happy with ALS - but i know for a fact it works 100% on fartstrup and it comes with on-off switch capability on the fly.

I have also considered AEM, but the price on that system and not beeing as fully plug and play with oem harness and functions made fartstrup a no brainer, not to mention the succes it has on AGU 1.8T´s - if i didnt care about that and was only making a racecar that system holds many more features from what i can tell, but features i wont be needing i think.

Anyways you are arguing that DBW takes milliseconds, well DBC takes 0.00000 seconds - it cant get faster then that, not to mention as someone stated, dbw is fine until it does something you dont want it to do, and another thing DBW can never open TB more then DBC, foot down and its open 100% on dbc, not sw determination on that first.


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## Islandsilvia (Sep 8, 2010)

Hey Guys,

what other vehicle uses the same ecu connector plugs like our AGU engine?


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> Jacob has told me it has the roughly the same adaptions as the oem ecu, but I will ask flemming about it. It should be able to adapt timing, fuel etc. - their should never be an issue where im lagging any adaption what so ever...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you understood the complexity of ME7 and its abilities you would be asking yourself why aren't there more people eliminating farsturp and other standalone boxes and going ME7 instead. It actually makes a GREAT standalone management system.


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

mescaline said:


> If you understood the complexity of ME7 and its abilities you would be asking yourself why aren't there more people eliminating farsturp and other standalone boxes and going ME7 instead. It actually makes a GREAT standalone management system.


You are really missing the point - i do understand the capabilities of ME7, but i don't have ME7 - and ME7 can ONLY handle DBW - so as mentioned before i will never touch DBW on my car, don't care for the hole conversion to get a DBW tb, i have dbc tb and happy with it - on the other hand i don't really see what ME7 could give me, that fartstrup does not??? - so if its cheaper for me to go stand alone with fartstrup and gives me everything i want. one thing i know ME7 can not is run low resistant injectors, and do you know what great features they can deliver over high resisted injectors?


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

Dk gt racer: then jacob just don´t know what the stock ecu can,or what the fartstrup not can.. when a stock ecu adatp any value,it saves it it and run after that(long term/short term),your stand alone will never save anything,that makes the car run different. so it is all up to you tuner and your real time lambda feedback,nothing else.

and fartsrup can not run low impedance injectors directly,most people in denmark that run low inpedance injector mostly run aem peak n hold injector box wich can be used on all ecu´s even stock me7´s


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## Ktech (Sep 17, 2011)

This is a funny thread, now i cant stand it any longer and have to shoot a reply.

Mescaline: You are totally right. ME7 is a GREAT ecu and have many build in options that are not even activated in the program. There is a reason that Bosch makes there Motorsports ECU based on the ME7, they call it MS 4 Sport. Hardware vise its the same based on another software platform and they use it in many racecars. The ME7 is great.

There have been many opinions in this thread about the response of the DBW, and in some way I agree with you Dennis ( DK_GTI_racer) that the setup for the vw feels slow. The DBW functions and responce is made so even you gran mother can drive this kinda car. The response functions of the DBW is just a question on how its programmed/setup in the software.
A good example is to compare the DBW on the BMW M series cars from 2000 and up, they all run on DBW and they dont have any delay on response at all. It feels like driving a cable.

DK_GTI_racer: I have to comment a few things on the Fartstrup ecu, since I have tuned many of these and know them very well.
The Fartstrup box is a nice P/P ecu for some cars where you can accept some compromises not have it all. What im going to write now is not meant bad, or should not be understod as im talking bad about the equipment. I just want people to understand what they get compared to other ECU's, since this thread is about what options is available.
One big advance is that the ecu is Directly P/P excangeable to the ME7 DBW, and its also made to other applications like the vr6, AGU, bmw etc. as P/P.
From my point of view the greatest advance by using this ecu will be on the ME7 since it controls the DBW, traction control, cruise control and all the equipment that are controlled Via CAN. the control of the DBW, Cruise, and traction control uses all available in/outputs so nothing extra is available if needed. 
On cars not running DBW and dont use the PT CAN signals there are many other brands of ECU that will do the job better. I will list only a few things that could be done alot better.
It does not run low impedance injectors.
Software do run windows now, but are still DOS based. everything is controlled by keyboard and the mouse cannot be used.
most of the maps/setup details are undefined between 0-65535 16 bit???? fuelmap is normally between 0-15000 raw data and does not refer to anything like Duty cycle, MS or pulse width.
Ignition map is also undefined. actual number in map is not the degree of timing you run.
Injectors does not run in full sequential mode, they are paired no matter how the system is setup. Some time ago i made a great example when measuring the A/F numbers after the turbo, it was showing Lambda 1.00 A/F 14,7 then I connected the innovate ST12 with 4 sensors, one in each exhaust runners and I saw this at idle.










I dont want to get deeper into this, but this has a big effect on how the car idle and bat influence on Carbon/NOX/O2 build up when you take the car for inspection.

This is just my personal oppinion, and i will mention again that it should not be understood as an attack to certain people.




DK_GTI_racer said:


> You are really missing the point - i do understand the capabilities of ME7, but i don't have ME7 - and ME7 can ONLY handle DBW - so as mentioned before i will never touch DBW on my car, don't care for the hole conversion to get a DBW tb, i have dbc tb and happy with it - on the other hand i don't really see what ME7 could give me, that fartstrup does not??? - so if its cheaper for me to go stand alone with fartstrup and gives me everything i want. one thing i know ME7 can not is run low resistant injectors, and do you know what great features they can deliver over high resisted injectors?


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

KTech, completely agreed on every single point.

ME7 is VERY capable ECU, a lot more capable than most of high end standalone solutions really. You just gotta know your way around them. More i dig into it...more blown away I get. Torque model on it is very complex and tackles every single aspect of a good/modern engine management system.


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## Ktech (Sep 17, 2011)

Yes it kinda crazy what the Stock ME7 can handle.

But to stay to the original posted question, there are many solutions to consider when choosing an aftermarked EMS that must be use on a street car. Many of the solutions that are out there are made for racing, and in modern cars it will effect some of the functions that the original ecu could handle.



mescaline said:


> KTech, completely agreed on every single point.
> 
> ME7 is VERY capable ECU, a lot more capable than most of high end standalone solutions really. You just gotta know your way around them. More i dig into it...more blown away I get. Torque model on it is very complex and tackles every single aspect of a good/modern engine management system.


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