# 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers....



## Germanpower SLC (Jan 17, 2003)

*What is the greatest amount of HP one can make out of an NA 8v? By adding cams, chip, intake, exhaust, ignition upgrade, header, and all that crap. What is the great amount of HP one can expect to get out of an 8V before one is left with no other choice but to do forced induction? Does anyone know?* 
If you could let me know I would appreciate it. I am debating on either keeping the GTI 8V or swapping for a 16V 1.8L. Let me know what you know. Thanx.


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## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Germanpower SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Germanpower SLC* »_*What is the greatest amount of HP one can make out of an NA 8v? By adding cams, chip, intake, exhaust, ignition upgrade, header, and all that crap. What is the great amount of HP one can expect to get out of an 8V before one is left with no other choice but to do forced induction? Does anyone know?* 
If you could let me know I would appreciate it. I am debating on either keeping the GTI 8V or swapping for a 16V 1.8L. Let me know what you know. Thanx. 













































Seems the realistic plateau is around 150 HP at the crank.
Now, I know- lots of folks are getting more than that but it's a valid number in terms of the original question. 
The fun part is (running street gas, etc) getting 150 at the WHEELS.








If you are going to get more you are going to need some kind of help.
What say ye Vortexers?

TBerk


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## 85GTI CA (Apr 7, 2004)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (TBerk)*

Check out the top 10 NA dynos and see what they run! http://www.thepaty.plus.com/8v/top10/dyno.htm


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (85GTI CA)*

Standard easy bolt ons are good for 150 crank. I made 128whp and 138wtq with standard bolt ons. 
With ITBs and programmable EFI, I'm shooting for 150+ whp and should be able to hit it. Dyno sometime next month.....


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Germanpower SLC)*

hp is *relatively* easy - just do what you can to really breath and spin her up...
really increasing torque is alot more difficult...
I'm going to guess over 200 hp...


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## saporter (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Peter Tong)*

What about keeping the 8V smog legal. What would be the max hp then?
Mine passes w/ a 266 cam, nice exhaust, and fresh head. But I'm probably only spinning 115hp.
Sean


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## Germanpower SLC (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Germanpower SLC)*

I am very excited about PROJECT: 8 VALVES OF FURY. 
What do you guys recommend on Cam size? Do lightened pulleys really affect an 8V as much as the would on other Dub motors. It made a tremendous difference on my 2.9L fully build Euro spec VR. 
But would one really see the effects on an 8v?
What if one resorts to turbo set up, any ideas? I know for a limited time the 8V came turboed in the A2s in America, does anyone know what size turbo it was or what kind??
Thanx for the fast response you guys! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Germanpower SLC (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Peter Tong)*

What do you think will really get it breathing? 
Standard port and polish and port matching, any other suggestions?
Intakes....what is a good option for it, just a eurosport P-flow or cold air? Anything special out for an 8V? 
Cam gear? Pulleys? Flywheel? For that added spin?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Germanpower SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Germanpower SLC* »_I know for a limited time the 8V came turboed in the A2s in America, does anyone know what size turbo it was or what kind??

They never came like that stock, period. Callaway cars did mod a few showroom ones and re-sell them, as well as sell kits to do the work, although a comprehensive Mk2 kit was never really produced. If you're interested in turbo, I have an original Callaway Mk1 kit minus the intake elbow that I could part with for the right money.


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## 2002maniac (May 3, 2004)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (need_a_VR6)*

well if you really want a crazy all-out motor. Do an ABA bottom end(2.0) Custom pistons, 11.5:1 compression seems to be the limit on street gas. Take the head to a shop that has a flow bench. If you just get in there with a dremel you will not get the best results. And either a 288 or 292 cam. Pullies might make a noticeable difference if you have AC and PS but if you dont, dont worry about it. ITB's wuold be the best intake solution, but you could get your manifold extrude honed, or cut it in half and hog it out, then weld back together.
good luck. and dont listen to the naysayers. vortex is full of them.


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## V_dubber03 (Mar 12, 2004)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Germanpower SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Germanpower SLC* »_What do you think will really get it breathing? 
Standard port and polish and port matching, any other suggestions?
Intakes....what is a good option for it, just a eurosport P-flow or cold air? Anything special out for an 8V? 
Cam gear? Pulleys? Flywheel? For that added spin?

Get K&N,BMW 535i AFM(air flow meter),air box mod and good p&p job get her breathing in good lil more air flow bore ur throttle body with dremel tool and add a metal pipe replace ****ty plastic tube
No point in getting adjustable cam unless u getting adjustable one which only help with tuning your cam 
Pulleys and stuff are fine but upgrade wouldnt hurt but like buying upgrade wires dont buy them till last get other stuff first


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## Residentevol (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (need_a_VR6)*

sellin already paul







?


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## Man&Golf (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_Standard easy bolt ons are good for 150 crank. I made 128whp and 138wtq with standard bolt ons. 
With ITBs and programmable EFI, I'm shooting for 150+ whp and should be able to hit it. Dyno sometime next month..... 

fark your car must fly.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Residentevol)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Residentevol* »_sellin already paul







?

Looks that way unfortunately. With other repairs to the car, it doesn't look like I can come under the $2005 budget with the stuff I still need to finish off the turbo. That crap adds up quick.







Eh, trying to run 13's on motor is just as fun as 11's on boost, right?


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## V_dubber03 (Mar 12, 2004)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_Standard easy bolt ons are good for 150 crank. I made 128whp and 138wtq with standard bolt ons. 
With ITBs and programmable EFI, I'm shooting for 150+ whp and should be able to hit it. Dyno sometime next month..... 

Can you tel me some more info about ITB's? and programmable EFI?


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## Residentevol (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (need_a_VR6)*

ha right on man..good luck I dont think I will even be able to get to 12's with this t3 Im starting to re-think that whole selling the t04 business


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Residentevol)*

All depends on how light your car is. I've seen full street cars running mid 13's on junkyard 60 trims. Get it a little on the light side, and you're there.


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## Germanpower SLC (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (2002maniac)*

What about a euro intake manifold, will that suffice instead of hogin out the American oem one? I also heard that Eurospec made some crazy heads that flowed 40 to 50% more than stock. That should be b*tchin but I bet they cost a sh*tload.


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## crazyreesie (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Germanpower SLC)*

Does anyone know what hp the mk3 2.0 ABA is stock? I tried searching but a lot of the search terms are too short to really get any results.
TIA.
Edit: Found it.











_Modified by crazyreesie at 4:49 PM 9-9-2004_


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## jimmy 8v (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (crazyreesie)*

i got a 1.9 8v that runs 192 @ crank, eats pistons though. thats through a single tb too, okay its flowed but theyre not individual. thats next along with a supercharger. itb's + sc = fun.


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## rocco8v (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (jimmy 8v)*

My advice is this. If you are looking for some serious power, get an ABA block... you need a 99mm diesel crank shaft and different pistons and rods (do a search) to make a 2.2 liter block. Take the head that was on that block, and convert it to solid lifters. Get it ported and polished, and put in a wicked big solid lifter cam. Get a short runner intake manifold made, and use a mustang 5.0 liter throttle body. Check the head for trueness, and install. Buy a 4 into 2 into 1 race header, and eliminate the cat. Run a straight through resonater and rear muffler to keep things quiet. Custom fab your own intake, and use a stand alone engine managment system you can control, or a shop near you knows. Run your fuel around 12.5 to 13.5 to 1 ratio, though it may be rich, you will like it better and make more power. Next, get your self the right injectors to run the required fuel at 60 to 65% duty cycle. An adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulater will help aid in fueling. Get an adjustable cam gear so you can fine tune where your power band is, and get the light weight pullies. Lightened flywheel, windage tray, and a good ignition system... you will make around 200 whp with everything tuned just right, and your motor will spin to 8000 rpm. Just do some research, and make it happen. 
By ready to spend about $10,000 on this, but it'll get you there... and how.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*

Diesel crank is only 95.5mm, Oettinger crank is the only 99mm one.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rocco8v* »_My advice is this. If you are looking for some serious power, get an ABA block... you need a 99mm diesel crank shaft and different pistons and rods (do a search) to make a 2.2 liter block. Take the head that was on that block, and convert it to solid lifters. Get it ported and polished, and put in a wicked big solid lifter cam. Get a short runner intake manifold made, and use a mustang 5.0 liter throttle body. Check the head for trueness, and install. Buy a 4 into 2 into 1 race header, and eliminate the cat. Run a straight through resonater and rear muffler to keep things quiet. Custom fab your own intake, and use a stand alone engine managment system you can control, or a shop near you knows. Run your fuel around 12.5 to 13.5 to 1 ratio, though it may be rich, you will like it better and make more power. Next, get your self the right injectors to run the required fuel at 60 to 65% duty cycle. An adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulater will help aid in fueling. Get an adjustable cam gear so you can fine tune where your power band is, and get the light weight pullies. Lightened flywheel, windage tray, and a good ignition system... you will make around 200 whp with everything tuned just right, and your motor will spin to 8000 rpm. Just do some research, and make it happen. 
By ready to spend about $10,000 on this, but it'll get you there... and how.

Pretty workable advice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , that's basically what I've done over the past 4 years. I've got less than 10k into her including the ITBs though, probably about 3k spread over those 4 years. 
The head's the biggy. Spend money on the head, everything else is less and seems easier after that.


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## rocco8v (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

Like I said, I don't know the exact figures, but it is a workable idea. You have ITB's, which is cool.
I agree the head is the way to go, more money in the head, the more power you will make.


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## 91gl (Aug 11, 2004)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*

what would be the power output on somehting like this. Estimated:
1. ABA block
2. Port and Polish + 3 angle valve job
3. cat-back
4. high flow cat
5. dual outlet manifold + dual downpipe
6. chip
7. BMW MAF
8. http://www.autotech.com/catalog/engkits.htm /autotech engine kit
9. euro camshafts
10. cam sprockets
wouldnt that be good for 200 crank hp?


_Modified by 91gl at 5:56 PM 9-10-2004_


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## 85vdub (Apr 9, 2003)

more like 140-150 crank if your reeeaaalllly lucky.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (91gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *91gl* »_what would be the power output on somehting like this. Estimated:
1. ABA block
2. Port and Polish + 3 angle valve job
3. cat-back
4. high flow cat
5. dual outlet manifold + dual downpipe
6. chip
7. BMW MAF
8. http://www.autotech.com/catalog/engkits.htm /autotech engine kit
9. euro camshafts
10. cam sprockets
wouldnt that be good for 200 crank hp?


Not a chance. Maybe 160-170 crank. To get above that on an 8v, your REALLY have to ride the ragged edge. The list above provided by Rocco8v which includes solid-lifter conversion, etc etc, is much closer. It might not cost you $10k, but it will cost you a lot. 
One issue I have with that lost though is the Mustang throttle body. That thing is meant to feed 5 litres......a wee bit of overkill for a tuned 2L 4-cylinder








Oh, and lest I forget, in that head you'll need 40/33 or even bigger valves, plus slimmed/undercut valve stems. An ABA x-flow head would probably be a better starting point too. 

_Modified by Mr Black at 8:25 PM 9-10-2004_


_Modified by Mr Black at 8:26 PM 9-10-2004_


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## rocco8v (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Mr Black)*

If you read in detail, I mentioned the aba head as the head to use. The reason i would use a mustang throttle body is to not choke anything. The intake manifolds on the 8v are a bottle neck. get the intake to flow like the exhaust, and you now have more power. 
The other point is that this motor would be a 2.2 liter, not much difference, but with a solid lifter conversion, and a balence and blueprinted bottom, I want the motor to spin to 11k, which is possible.
In answer to your question 91gl, the engine kit would make some power over the ABA swap, and bring you to around 160 to 170 crank wheel hp, but I would change a few things on your list. Get a header instead of the dual downpipe, better top end, and change the cam for a more performance based camshaft. The euro cams are great, but something a little hotter will work the best. 
I was in the process of writing up the difinitive cheap A$$ build up on the vwfixx forum, and once it it completed, I will drop it in here. I talk about how to make any 8v faster on a budget, and get into more detailed explinations and more money as the build up goes on. In the list, I suggest using a lower temp thermostat and fan switch with red line water wetter to keep your temps down in the digi II injection system. Try something along those line to wring a few more ponies out of it.


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## bigDdawg22 (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*

i'm rockin a 2.0L, abd intake, shaved head, schrick 276 cam, and cat back exhaust. any ideas what i might be at HP wise?


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (bigDdawg22)*

$50 3/pulls, no guessing, put it on the dyno and be prepared to weep.
i say that because almost always dyno's dont give ya what you want to expect, just the way it is.
quite guessing, skip lunch for a week and find out if you want to know


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_$50 3/pulls, no guessing, put it on the dyno and be prepared to weep.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## adub96 (Nov 12, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (Mr Black)*

i've decided to go ahead and answer this question of can 150hp be made at the wheels for myself. I have almost everything done. 
1. aba swap (lightened intermidiate shaft, crank, pulleys, and ECS 9lb flywheel) 
2. bmw vam
3. abd intake
4. heavily ported throttle body and intake
5. minimal headwork
6. autotech 270 cam 
7. 3.5 bar fpr
8. porsche 944 injectors
9. 55mm cat
10. TT cat back
11. dual outlet manifold and racing dual down pipe
12. cone filter with box made for it. 
13. water wetter, 168deg. thermostat and fanswitch. 
I"m waiting on a csw chip if the guy gets back vw_pilot gets back to me. I dynoed 143 at the wheels of my old mk3 with a similar setup. So we'll see when i take it to auto assets in a couple weeks.


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## crazyreesie (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (adub96)*

I'm depressed... I was going to go the 2.1L route in my mk2 8v GTI, but after doing a little research and discovering that it would cost well over $1000 just for PARTS, never mind the machine work, I had to re-think this issue. There's so much more the car needs. I could do a 2.0 very cheaply, I have a cam and downpipe waiting, and could spend the leftover money on a nice exhaust and some other goodies I've been drooling over... is the extra tenth of a liter really worth a couple grand?


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## rocco8v (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (crazyreesie)*

In a word... YES. There is no replacement for displacement.
It comes down to what you want to do. The reason the 2.1 liter kit is well worth it (from autotech) is the knife edged crank and balenced bottom end. Displacement plus balencing, equals free revving, power house. Just go ahead and do it. If you need anything from Autotech, hit me up. I will hook you up cheaper than most places, and get it to you just as quick.


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## username (Mar 27, 2001)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (adub96)*

i hope to be on a dyno by the end of october....i'll be sure to post up the results
if it goes like the organizer is talking about, i might get three runs...if it pans out and i get a chance to do a test run of my yet to be complete bmw VAM setup i'll try for one run on the stock VAM and two on the bigger one....but that might be a stretch since its not complete and there are several parts to change over between runs http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by username at 4:30 PM 9-15-2004_


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## crazyreesie (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rocco8v* »_I will hook you up cheaper than most places, and get it to you just as quick. 

How cheap are you talking here? I wasn't going to use a kit, I was just going to track down all the parts and send the block to a machine shop.


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## adub96 (Nov 12, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*

the autotech crank is 100mm and can only be used with a machined out obd2 block right? Just wondering, one day i was thinking about trying this. BUt i heard they dont rev for nothing.


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## rocco8v (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (adub96)*

Actually, you heard wrong. The Autotech Crank in the Sport tuned 2.1 liter engine kit is a 95.5 mm and i designed to be used in the ABA or 9A, or 3A motors.The crank they use weighs the same amount as 92.8mm crank found in your cars now (if you have an ABA, 3A, or 9A) I would sell this kit for $2250 plus shipping. That is $450 off the list price!!!! 
Most other places will sell you smaller items like cams at a discounted rate, and rope you in on the big ticket money makers... not me. I am here to hook you guys up, not my wallet. This kit does give major performance gains over a stock ABA. Less parasitic loss at high RPM, and the ability to rev quicker and more free from a knife edged crankshaft. The kits comes with main bearings, rod bearings, pistons, rings, wrist pins, and all gaskets. Just take it to the machine shop, and have at it. With a ported and polished head, high lift cam and springs, header and exhaust, as well as intke modifications, yuo can get approximatly 180 out of your dub. If everything is balenced together, (your pistons, and rods with in a gram) you can potentially rev this combo to about 10k, assuming all is right.


_Modified by rocco8v at 4:28 PM 9-16-2004_


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## adub96 (Nov 12, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*

i thought the 95.5 half crank is the diesle (i can never spell that word) crank. What about the reving, are the snappy or they just pure torque, i would like to have a 2.1 then supercharge it with a neuspeed or lysholm, will this work.


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## rocco8v (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (adub96)*

Sure it would. The crankshaft in question (if you read) Weighes in at the same as your stock 2.0 liter crank. It is a forged, knife edged crank. The purpose behind building it this way was to allow for a 2.1 liter motor to be snappy and spin freely.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8V Max. Horsepower questions for the texers.... (rocco8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rocco8v* »_Sure it would. The crankshaft in question (if you read) Weighes in at the same as your stock 2.0 liter crank. It is a forged, knife edged crank. The purpose behind building it this way was to allow for a 2.1 liter motor to be snappy and spin freely.

I'm not sure about the Autotech 95.5mm crank but the stock diesel 95.5mm crank is a few pounds heavier than the stock 2.0L crank and could definitely benefit from knife edging.


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