# Electrical Problems - Includes TB 27-06-02, RVU (Campaign OH)



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*multitude of electrical problems*

Does anyone out there have the same problems I have? My car has been horribly unreliable. The electrical system must be from a 1980 Chevy. Everything has failed at least once, but always self corrects. The navigation always mistracts, usually off by about 50 miles and going in the wrong direction. sometimes the radio won't work, power seats won't work. couldn't turn of the alarm once (and therefore the car was stranded). windows and sunroof close and then open by themselves. seat massages work when they want too. Seat memory never works now. pasenger mirror does not aim down in reverse (permanent). I could go on and on. The worst part is VW's service. They told me that because most things work at least some of the time they are not broken and therefore don't have to fix them or even investigate. The dealer wouldn't give me a loaner car when they had the car for a week to replace some trim that just fell off (never got the trim in so that was a waste) and a few minor issues. VW says loaner car is at dealer discretion. they told me I would have to pay for electrical fixes myself. Yes, the car is lovely and drives great. But so does an Honda Accord. The extra $50,000 worth of content doesn't work so basically I have a $70,000 economy car. Just wondering if anyone else has had the same problem with the electrical system or poor service from VW.


----------



## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Did you schedule your service through the Phaeton CUstomer Service group? This seems to really help with getting the dealer's attention.


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (guybguy)*

Yes I did. had multiple phone calls with them. At first they seemed very helpful. But apparently they are at the mercy of the Dealer. What the dealer says goes. the closest dealer is about 45 minutes away and is notoriously poor (also sells Buick and other brands). the next dealer is about 1:15 away.


----------



## geowben (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Todd, I too have had absolutely terrible experiences with the Farmington Hills dealer. But, I've had terrific results with Surburban VW in Troy. Even though it is the same company there are significant differences. I deal with Andy Lietz and the service manager, Chris Snyder. Call Andy and mention my name. It may help....or may not. Andy's number is 248 519-9463. I always get a loaner (Jetta or Passat) and I left my car for him to drive one weekend to make sure the problems were taken care of. I have also heard from Phaeton Chix that the Rochester Hills dealer is good. It's just too far for me. Troy is bad enough to get to...let alone Rochester. Good luck. And, BTW, don't try Ann Arbor. It's as bad as Farmington Hills.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hi Todd:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum.
Some of us here encountered similar problems a couple of years ago when the car was first introduced to North America. The problems (and the solutions) are well documented elsewhere on the forum, however, I'll give you a precis of the cause and the fix here, so you have a good overview before you start reading the other, lengthier posts.
The Phaeton has two batteries, one on the left side that powers all the comfort systems, and one on the right side that is used to supply starting power only. If the battery on the left side has a depleted charge, various systems will start to give spurious error codes and operate intermittently.
The left battery can get into a low charge condition for one of two reasons: either the owner is allowing the battery to discharge by using the car electrical systems for longer than 5 minutes without starting the engine, or, the battery management controller (controller 71) is not supplying the battery with sufficient recharge power. Our experience is that owners who have problems such as you have described normally have to address and correct both problems.
Have your VW dealer complete a diagnostic scan of your car, and see if the part number suffix on your J367 battery management controller (part number 3D0 915 181) ends with A or B. If it does, have that controller replaced with a newer version controller that ends in either C or D. This will solve the problem of the left side battery not getting enough recharge current.
At the same time, you need to be cautious to not operate the car systems (stereo, lighting, etc.) for longer than 5 minutes at a time without starting the engine. The Phaeton uses quite a bit of current when the car is powered on, for all sorts of functions - HVAC, heated seats, dimming mirrors, stuff like that - so, if you plan to have the ignition on for more than 5 minutes, you really need to start the car.
Here are some links to past discussions that I think you will find fascinating (and very helpful) to read:
Battery - Vehicle Power Supply Battery (not starter battery) Problems
....Additional discussion of problems arising from discharged batteries (battery management controller replacement)
....Battery Discharge Discussion (including pictures of solar recharger)
....A possible answer for the battery discharge problem
....Intervention Load Management on the Phaeton (contains VW Technical Bulletin 27-05-04)
....Purchasing and using a Battery Maintainer for your Phaeton (Includes TB 00-03-11)
Lastly, I will be passing through your neighborhood in about a week's time, if you want, we can get together for a coffee and we can have a look at your car in more detail.
Michael


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

thanks for the info. Never considered a battery problem. Some things have stopped working all together (such as the memory seats and the tilting mirror for reverse). Could low battery make the navigation mistrack so badly? Funny thing about this car-every once in a while (read once a week at least) I'll be walking through the parking lot and hear a radio playing. guess what? It's mine ( the key is in my pocket and the car is locked with the alarm on!!) Also, since delivery the left rear head rest goes up and down by itself sporadically with or without someone in the seat. This car is truly haunted. I would appreciate any help. just let me know when you're around and if I'm free too we'll get together. 
Even if we figure out the problems, it doesn't excuse the horrible customer service. I just don't see how a major company could alienate a customer like that. I can't imagine Audi is much better.


----------



## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Sounds like you need an Exorcist. The only one I know of is called Michael Moore. He'll have you fixed in no time!


----------



## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

Now let's see: first we learn that the Dear Leader has a preference for the Phaeton, then we learn that the Pope got a Phaeton, and now we come to realize that A) Phatons will sometimes require an exorcist, and B) the Paheton forum moderator is in fact our Chief Exorcist. I wonder if these events are somehow linked?








Stefano


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Ya know, I spent a lot of time at the dealer and on the phone with the Phaeton people and they never mentioned any of these problems. Turns out after going through this forum that this has been a major problem for lots of Phaeton owners and is not new. Many posts are from early 2005. How could the Phaeton hotline not know any of this?? 
I had written the car off. I stopped washing it, only got oil change if local quick lube could find a filter (rare occurrence! I'm not driving 45 minutes for a free oil change), and put in regular gas. It has become a simple tool to get me to work. heck, usually I choose my wives minivan (or my S2000 if nice out) to run around town. But now there is hope. If only I could get VW to give me a loaner. 
One other thought, I never run the systems without the engine on (well, maybe for a minute once or twice a month) and I even turned off the delay function on the headlights.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Todd:
I'll be coming right by your place early next week... send me an email (moore99 at rogers dot com) and we can arrange to get together. I'll run a diagnostic scan on your Phaeton and we can then figure out together what the most likely cause of the problem is.
Phaetons are generally pretty trouble-free cars. There have been a few issues identified over the past couple of years - low voltage on the left hand battery being probably the most significant issue - but the fix for this is simple if the technician is familiar with the car. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of Phaetons in North America, which means it is sometimes tough to find a technician who is familiar with it. That's why we owners stick together and share information in this forum.
We have a pretty good relationship with VW, in the sense that they help us out a lot behind the scenes, and we get along well with VW. It's just like anything else (computers, the futures market, whatever) - if you know how it works and you know the tricks, it's easy to solve small problems, but if you don't know how it works and you don't have anyone to go to to help out - it ain't no fun at all.
Looking forward to seeing you next week.
Michael
*PS:* My fees are as follows - anything up to half a day, including turning off all the chimes and solving electrical problems: a double-tall latte. For serious work that may take a full day, including suspension tweaks and phone retrofits - a slice of Key Lime pie.


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Let me know if you need an assistant. Maybe Dave & I can lend a hand.
Todd, I sent you a couple of IM's. I'm local (NW Oakland Co) and would be happy to help you with your Phaeton.
PC


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PhaetonChix)*

thanks for all the help. I guess I will have to hike it up to Fox. It would be nice to know the problem ahead of time to expedite the repairs and only make one trip.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_ It would be nice to know the problem ahead of time to expedite the repairs and only make one trip.

Have no fear, PC and I will diagnose it 'par excellance'. If we get stumped, we can always call in Brent from KC.
Michael


----------



## SeaTreg (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

This kind of behavior is what VW Vortex should be all about. It is after all, an enthusiasts site, though you would seldom know that with all of the negativity we get here. Great job offering to help sort out this guys Phaeton. I am sure with the knowledge and tools you have, combined with your passion about the Phaeton, you will have great success in making his car right! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (SeaTreg)*

Negativity? None of that stuff here. A little frustration perhaps at times about service issues, but we have easily the best Forum around and one well known for both civility and content.


----------



## SeaTreg (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (Paldi)*

There is plenty of negativity here in the land of VW Vortex. Perhaps you don't venture into any of the other "forum's" here, but I do. I have a Touareg, and a Passat B6. I also owned a MKV Jetta, so I am always looking to see what good information is out there from other owners. I am amazed at how negative a LOT of the posts are. Now, don't get too defensive here, but there is plenty of negativity here in the Phaeton forum as well. You might be right, maybe you guys are more civil about it. All I was trying to do was pat Michael on the back for offering his help to a fellow Phaeton owner!

_Modified by SeaTreg at 3:10 PM 10-26-2006_


_Modified by SeaTreg at 3:11 PM 10-26-2006_


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

met with Michael today and he was very helpful and full of knowledge. Got rid of some annoying NA only things such as warning chimes and discovered that indeed it is the battery control module that is bad. Turns out I actually have lots of old software versions for other systems as well. Also discovered that my navi system could see none of the 8 available satellites. No wonder i often appear to be driving across the lake (as a surgeon I have been accused of thinking I'm a god but I didn't know my Phaeton believed it!)








Thanks again Michael. You have restored my faith in the car and I will give it a proper washing once the rain stops here in Michigan (if it keeps up that driving across water ability may come in handy). I'll try to get that controller changed this week.


----------



## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Yeah!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for Michael!!


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_Met with Michael today...

The whole diagnostic exercise with Todd's car was fascinating, and I am going to write it up here in detail, because it is an *absolute textbook example* of how one single bad component - in Todd's case, the battery management controller - can result in a multitude of problems that would, if not correctly diagnosed, probably lead to a buy-back.
The first thing I did when we got to the car was to start the engine and then run a diagnostic scan. Todd and I didn't have a battery maintainer available to us, as a result, it was essential to keep the engine running all the time that we had the ignition turned on.
The results of the diagnostic scan were unremarkable, and on the surface, did not provide any clue at all about what was the cause of the multitude of problems that the car presented with. Todd described the problems pretty well in his first post, but just to recap, here's a partial list:
- Driver seat would not retain memory settings
- Navigation system did not work
- Suspension was badly out of calibration (adaptation)
- TPMS displayed a fault
- Sunroof only worked intermittently
- J523 functions (radio control, etc.) were intermittent
Here's an edited excerpt of the diagnostic scan. I've omitted listing controllers that did not show a fault, or were not germane to the diagnostic process.
*Initial Diagnostic Scan - Todd's MY 2004 Phaeton (VIN in the high 9,000 series)*

Address 07: Control Head
Part No: 3D0 035 008 M
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0188
Coding: 0500305
Shop #: WSC 01065
2 Faults Found:
00384 - Optical Databus 004 - No Signal/Communication
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Address 09: Cent. Elect.
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001
Coding: 0000002
Shop #: WSC 01065
1 Fault Found:
00907 - Intervention load Management

Address 17: Instruments
Part No: 3D0 920 981 H
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB4 0411
Coding: 0005121
Shop #: WSC 01065
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr
Part No: 3D0 959 760 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1520
Coding: 0000004
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
Address 37: Navigation
Part No: 3D0 919 887 A
Component: NAVIGATION 0147
Coding: 0400000
Shop #: WSC 01065
2 Faults Found:
00625 - Vehicle Speed Signal 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Address 38: Roof Electronics
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605
Coding: 0000047
Shop #: WSC 01065
1 Fault Found:
00220 - Connection to Sunroof 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Address 65: Tire Pressure
Part No: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021
Coding: 0011204
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
Address 71: Battery Charger
Part No: 3D0 915 181 B
Component: Batteriemanagement 2600
No fault code found.
As you can see, there are a few fault codes shown, but nothing that really points to the cause of any of the problems. However...
The smoking gun here is the presence of a 'B' version battery management controller, and Todd's long list of electrical problems. Those of us who have some experience diagnosing and troubleshooting Phaeton electrical problems would realize right away that the probable cause of all the grief has nothing to do with the individual parts (the driver seat, the sunroof, the radio, etc.) and everything to do with an insufficient voltage supply to those electrical components. I did not have a AVR Testing Tool or a Midtronics MCR340V Battery Analyzer available, so I did the next best thing - looked at the measured value blocks that showed the voltage present on the two batteries. With the engine running, the starter battery showed 14.1 volts, but the vehicle power supply battery (the left battery) only showed 12.9 volts. That was all the proof I needed to determine that the battery management controller (controller 71) was not allocating enough recharge power to the left hand battery.
So, the very first priority is to get the 'version B' battery management controller replaced with either a version C or version D controller. That is not a particularly difficult task to carry out, a full set of instructions can be found here: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement. The part itself costs about $300 retail, and it takes about an hour of flat-rate labour to replace it. At the same time that this controller is replaced, the shop doing the work needs to fully charge the left battery using an external charger, then test the battery (after it has been charged) using the Midtronics tester. It is highly probable that the battery will be in a low charge condition when the car comes in the door for the battery controller replacement, so, it only makes sense to charge the battery up before handing the car back to the customer. It is also possible - not probable, but possible - that the battery might be toast as a result of never getting enough charge in the past. If that is the case, then the battery should be replaced... but battery replacement is not indicated _a priori..._ only if the battery fails the Midtronics test *after *being externally recharged.
The really sad part about all this is that unless the technician servicing the car has a lot of experience troubleshooting Phaeton electrical problems, and knows of the history of grief caused by some (not all, but some) B version controllers, it is likely that the tech will focus his or her efforts on the 'obvious' fault codes. Truth is, every single fault code that showed up on Todd's car was spurious, and a direct consequence of low voltage supply to the various controllers that were reporting the fault - not a result of any problems with those controllers. Let's look at each fault code in detail:
Address 07: Control Head
Part No: 3D0 035 008 M
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0188
Coding: 0500305
Shop #: WSC 01065
2 Faults Found:
00384 - Optical Databus 004 - No Signal/Communication
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
The first fault - the squawk about the optical databus - is a result of one of the objects at either end of the optical databus (the J523 display at one end, or the J401 navigation CD unit at the other end) not passing data when it should. It ain't a fault with the fiber optic cable. Heck, the fiber optic cable is either in good shape (not broken), or it's broken. It's not going to be broken unless there is some significant clue suggesting that it is broken, for example, evidence of a head-on collision that has crumpled the front passenger compartment.







One of the two controllers at either end of this databus was not passing data at the time that the scan was done - and it is 99.9% probable that this was a result of low supply voltage to that controller.
As for fault number two - hey, guess what? The car is reporting that the J523 has experienced supply low voltage problems in the past. The word 'intermittent' is appended to a fault whenever the fault has existed in the past, but is not present when the diagnostic scan is being done. So, I guess that means we don't have to worry about the optical databus... if we can solve the low voltage supply problem, the optical datbus fault will go away on its own.
Address 09: Cent. Elect.
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001
Coding: 0000002
Shop #: WSC 01065
1 Fault Found:
00907 - Intervention load Management 
By itself, in the absence of any owner complaints about how the Phaeton is functioning, a report that the Intervention Load Management system has been active is not _per se_ anything to worry about. The Phaeton has a very sophisticated load-shedding system that will quietly shut down non-critical electrical consumers whenever electrical demand exceeds electrical supply. We have a post that explains how that system works here: Intervention Load Management on the Phaeton. However - if the Phaeton owner is complaining about strange problems with multiple different electrical systems, then the report of Intervention Load Management being active takes on more significance... it suggests that there ain't enough electricity available to satisfy the demands being imposed on the electrical system. By now, you are probably starting to see a pattern developing here, with the finger always pointing back at the comfort battery not supplying sufficient power when called on to do so.
Address 17: Instruments
Part No: 3D0 920 981 H
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB4 0411
Coding: 0005121
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
There's no fault code present there, but there is a very significant clue about the vehicle's service history, if you know where to look for it. It's not that the coding has been changed from NAR default of 7221 to ROW default of 5121 (I did that just prior to doing the scan, to turn off all the unwanted chimes), it's that the software version in the instrument cluster is version 11. Heck, version 11 is a thousand years old! The current version is 21 or higher. Version 11 instrument cluster software is known to be responsible for various grief, including Distortion in the Y24 screen of the Instrument Cluster and intermittent CAN bus communication through the CAN gateway that is part of the instrument cluster.
The fact that the instrument cluster software is still at version 11 as of October 2006, even though Todd has been taking the car to a VW dealer for service in accordance with the published service schedule proves two things:
*a)* The dealer is not really familiar with Phaetons, and;
*b)* VW of North America has still not published a TB mandating flash updates of the instrument cluster software to the current (21 or higher) version, even though VW in the rest of the world has mandated this update in Service campaign 66C4, Criteria 06, dated June 2, 2006.
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr
Part No: 3D0 959 760 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1520
Coding: 0000004
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
The controller reports no problems, but none of the memory settings will work. Todd and I determined that this was because the driver seat needed to be adapted (run to the fore and aft limits, so the controller knows the physical limits of available movement). Controllers for moving objects normally only need adaptation when they are brand new, or after battery power has been disconnected. "After battery power has been disconnected' could also be interpreted to mean "after the voltage available to that controller has fallen so low that the controller has forgot what its adaptation settings were..." See this post for an explanation about how to re-adapt controllers following a low voltage condition: Driver's seat will not move back. It is a quick, easy, simple process that any owner can complete in less than a minute, without any tools or special training. In fact, I think it is even explained in the owner manual, though I am not 100% sure of that.
Address 37: Navigation
Part No: 3D0 919 887 A
Component: NAVIGATION 0147
Coding: 0400000
Shop #: WSC 01065
2 Faults Found:
00625 - Vehicle Speed Signal 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Hey, this looks almost like the same complaint that the J523 Front Information Display and Control Head (controller 7) had - not enough voltage. The J523 is at one end of the optical databus, and this controller (the J401 navigation controller) is at the other end. Do the math...
As for the 'intermittent speed-sensor signal', we in the Phaeton forum have learned from experience that whenever low voltage conditions are prevalent, that particular fault code will show up. There is nothing, I repeat, *nothing *wrong with the speed sensor.
Address 38: Roof Electronics
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605
Coding: 0000047
Shop #: WSC 01065
1 Fault Found:
00220 - Connection to Sunroof 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Even though Todd has reported multiple problems with the sunroof, that fault code can be safely ignored. Again, we know from experience that just about every Phaeton in the world will generate that particular code from time to time, even when there is nothing at all wrong with the car. It seems that there is a little error somewhere in the source code for that controller that causes that error message to be generated even when everything is working perfectly. Another 'always ignore this one' fault code that is often generated by the roof controller - but was not present on Todd's car - reads as follows:
00222 - Connection to Rain Sensor 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Trust me about these ones - if you see either of these codes, just forget that they exist. I once did a diagnostic scan on a brand new Phaeton that was sitting on the piazza in front of the Transparent Factory in Dresden - the car had about 20 kilometers on it, and it was in perfect shape - and guess what, both of those fault codes showed up. Like I said - if you see those two, just disregard them. They don't cause any harm, the owner never sees them unless he or she has a diagnostic scan tool, so for that reason, there is no point in VW replacing a $400 controller just because it generates two spurious fault codes. 
Address 71: Battery Charger
Part No: 3D0 915 181* B*
 Component: Batteriemanagement 2600
No fault code found.
Even though no fault code is shown, this is the culprit that is the cause of all of Todd's problems. Once this thing is replaced with a C suffix or higher controller (meaning, software version 2700 or 2800), and the battery is recharged with an external charger, the *cause *of all the problems will have been fixed. But, a fair amount of work might still need to be done to get rid of all the symptoms left behind. By this I mean that the seats, sunroof, power windows, etc. will all need to be adapted, and some controllers - such as the J523 - will need to be 'reset' to factory default values to get rid of odd settings and values that may be stored in them. The TPMS system will also need to be put through a learning cycle to get rid of the fault message it is generating - after, of course, the tire pressures have all been confirmed to be correct (see this post: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design and Function- there is a post in there, about 2/3 of the way down the first page, that explains exactly how to adapt that system. If you want to skip the Design and Function explanation and go directly to the adaptation instructions, click here).
For some unknown reason, Todd's navigation system reports that it is not seeing any of the satellites in the GPS constellation, even though the car was parked outside with a clear view of the sky.  There could be two possible causes of this problem: 
*1)* Something is wrong with the navigation controller or the GPS antenna (rather unlikely), or, 
*2) * The satellite almanac that the navigation controller downloads from the GPS satellite constellation - which tells the controller where the satellites can be found in the sky for the next 6 months - is probably corrupt as a result of all the low voltage problems (very, very probable).
The fix for this is pretty easy, although it is not documented in the VW literature: Remove the controller from its mount, disconnect the power, wait a minute, then plug it back in. Now, start the car and park it outside so that the rear window glass (where the GPS antenna for navigation is) has a clear view of the sky. It will take a while for the GPS system to locate the satellites and download a new almanac - perhaps as long as 20 minutes - but, once the navigation controller has downloaded a new, uncorrupted almanac, everything will likely work just perfectly. Of course (you knew this), leave the engine running while the car is looking for satellites. You wouldn't want to be the cause of a low voltage problem on the comfort battery, would you?








Michael
PS: I just noticed that this is my 10,000th post on Vortex - hope it is useful to someone. Maybe I should go get a life now...


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

I called the phaeton line today. They were very vague and played dumb when I mentioned the battery controller. their line was that just because it was recalled in Europe doesn't mean there is a problem with NA cars. Seemed they were trying to give me the run around until ......I mentioned Michaels name and that he had run diagnostics on my car. Suddenly their attitude changed and they became helpful. Why are they so resistant to helping? If there has been this many problems shouldn't they just recall it. How many people are out there who don't belong to this forum (as I didn't until last week) and who's dealer has thrown up their hands (or worse, replaced everything on the car). I think the right thing for VW to do is send all owners of cars with B series controllers a letter discussing the problems. I'm sure not everyone had this problem but I know there are a lot of people who are just living with the problems.


----------



## SeaTreg (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hmm.....that is disturbing news!


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_...Why are they so resistant to helping? 

Todd:
Our collective experience as Phaeton owners has always been that the Phaeton Customer Care center staff have been *very *helpful - so, it appears that your experience is the 'exception to the norm'. Anyway, it sounds like that is behind you now, which is good.
Concerning that B version battery controller: It would not be appropriate for VW to send out a letter to all North American owners about that controller, because it has not caused a problem in all Phaetons, or even in the majority of Phaetons... witness Rodger's post of earlier today at this link: Farewell, Phaeton. He has a B version controller in his car.
VW of America is not always the fastest, most flexible, most responsive company in the universe, but we (as forum participants) do our best to maintain cordial and collegial relations with the staff there who are involved in product service and support. I have discussed this Battery Controller issue with VW before - I think the best answer would be if they could somehow send out a note to the technicians in the field to the effect of _"Hey, if you get a Phaeton in for service that has a multitude of electrical problems, start off by examining the vehicle power supply battery voltage level. If it is low, and the battery itself is not faulty, the next thing to do is consider replacing the Battery Controller with a newer version."_
Although I know a bit about the car, and have some experience troubleshooting it, I don't know what the complete story behind VW of America's actions (or inaction) is. It is possible that they are working on something now, who knows. In the meantime, the best thing that we as an owner and enthusiast group can do is to collect and disseminate information that will assist with diagnostics, troubleshooting and repair - which is why I made the trip to see you. Hopefully if someone else encounters a similar problem in the future, they might see this post, and it will help them get the problem solved quickly and efficiently.
Michael


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

very interesting day yesterday. When I took my phaeton in they told me the battery management controller had been recalled!!! Once I wiped the dumb-founded look off my face they told me it had been recalled 2-3 months ago. They were surprised I had not received it. More confusing considering what phaeton customer srvc told me. More info when I get the car back. There is a navi problem the dealer thinks is not part of the battery issue.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hi Todd:
Thanks for sharing that news with us!
Three cheers for VW of America for getting onto the battery controller issue. VW of America can sometimes be slow to react to stuff, but they are honest - eventually, they *do *react. So, that is great news.
It's also interesting to note that one of the brightest and most enthusiastic young electronics engineers at VW in Auburn Hills - a guy who has given us a lot of very good support behind the scenes with the Phaeton - is now part of the Eos launch team. The Eos has had a very trouble-free launch in NAR. A few very minor software issues (radio sometimes not finding the satellite, seat memory, little stuff like that) were identified amongst the first group of Eos 'demonstrator' cars, and the Eos Support Team issued four TB's with software updates within about 30 days of the first Eos arriving in North America. Heck, all the final little tweaks (TBs) are waiting at the dealership before the production vehicles even arrive on the delivery truck. So, it looks like things are generally improving with VW of America product support. Good stuff.
Todd - about your navigation system - while it is possible that something might be broken in the navigation controller (the CD reader for the nav system), I think it is more probable that the almanac is corrupted. I have encountered the same problem with aircraft nav systems before following low voltage conditions. So, perhaps just try removing the nav controller, letting it sit on the workbench for an hour or so, then re-installing it... that might save all the hassle and expense of having to order a new component. Although the nav controller itself is not wildly expensive, the problem is that if the new nav controller comes in with 0168 or higher software, that kind of mandates replacement of the J523 to keep everything matched up, and it is both fussy and expensive to replace a J523.
In case the J523 does need to be replaced (as a consequence of replacing the J401, not because there is anything wrong with the J523), here are a couple of useful posts with some tips about how to avoid headaches when changing out a J523:
J523 Front Information Display and Control Head – Illustrated Removal Instructions
Installation Tip - Replacement of the J523 Front Information Display and Control Head
Michael


----------



## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
The first thread maps to the (archived) XM radio installation thread: is this right?
Stefano


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (Motorista)*

Hi Stefano:
I wondered about that link going to the XM thread myself, and double-checked it last night. The J523 content is actually in about the fourth post down, underneath the picture - there are some tips there explaining how to avoid unwanted and unexpected damage to the interior trim when removing the J523. The most important tip of all is that you have to remove the J523 from the cabin via the front passenger door (not the driver door), and you have to have a helper waiting to take the J523 from your hands and remove it from the car.
The reasons for this recommendation are as follows: 1) If you try to take it out the driver door, you will likely scuff the steering wheel or airbag, and 2) the J523 has all sorts of sharp metal edges on it, which means you can't place it on the front passenger seat.
If you want fully detailed and illustrated instructions for removal of the trim around the J523, have a look at the post that explains how to install a start button. That doesn't involve J523 removal, but it does require removal of all the trim around it... and the start button post illustrates the process really well. Here's the link: Retrofitting Keyless Start to a North American Phaeton.
Michael


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Three cheers for VW of America for getting onto the battery controller issue. VW of America can sometimes be slow to react to stuff, but they are honest - eventually, they *do *react. So, that is great news.


I just had the 40k service done and they also replaced the battery controller even though I had not reported any issues. It was listed as J#11+02MAZ10. It was specified as a recall.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (car_guy)*

Mine's in the shop now. They said they will perform a scan, and if my controller isn't a "C" they will replace it.

*Postscript from Michael, added in 2011: * See this thread for some pictures showing what the battery management controller looks like, and where it is located - Discharged Batteries, Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_When I took my phaeton in they told me the battery management controller had been recalled...

I found the documentation supporting the replacement of 'B' version battery controllers with 'C' or later version battery controllers.
It's not a recall _per se_ - the word 'recall' has special meaning in the USA, it is reserved for safety related things only. Instead, the Phaeton battery controller replacement program is a RVU, which means 'Required Vehicle Update'.
I have attached the technical bulletin that provides details about this below. It was published this past summer (June 2006) - I guess I missed it because I was in Africa at the time. Note that this TB is in effect for one year from date of publication - so, if you are encountering any electrical difficulties, best to get the work carried out soon. 
Michael


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
It's not a recall _per se_ - the word 'recall' has special meaning in the USA, it is reserved for safety related things only. Instead, the Phaeton battery controller replacement program is a RVU, which means 'Required Vehicle Update'.


I guess "Recall" was this particular dealer's characterization of the job, not VW's. The complete description on the invoice (spelling errors theirs!) was:
PERFORM REQUIRED UPDATE OH
REPLACED BATTERY MANAGEMENT MODULE
RECALL COMPELTED


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Got the car back today. All seems well. They fixed all the broken pieces under warranty (Michael knows what I'm referring to). With the battery controller replaced things seem better already (even though it is only been a few hours). Even the Navi is tracking properly. Curiously, all my settings (radio, etc) were preserved. I wonder if they disconnected the battery or if the car has memory even if power is disconnected. I'm pleasantly surprised they didn't reset all the changes Michael made (bells, etc).
We will see what happens in the next few weeks. My wife and I did all our driving in the Phaeton today (first time in months).


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hi Todd:
Glad to hear all is well. The radio preserves its settings even when the battery is disconnected - and the shop would have had to disconnect the battery to replace the battery controller (to be more precise, removing the battery controller disconnects both batteries).
The programming for the bells and whistles is stored in non-volotile RAM, and is thus unaffected by power supply.
You might have to re-adapt the power windows (recalibrate them for pinch protection), although I suspect that given the experience your shop has with Phaetons, they probably did this for you. In any case, if you encounter any unexpected power window reversals, just run the window fully up, fully down, and fully up again, holding the window operating button at full displacement (up or down) all the time. That's all there is to it.
Very happy to hear that the shop replaced the little broken trim bits for you. That's great news.
Michael


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

There is an inexpensive device that is designed to preserve memory settings in cars when the main battery is removed. It uses a 9-volt battery and plugs into the cigarette lighter. See COMPUTER MEMORY SAVER.
NOTE: I have not in fact used this device and cannot attest to its effectiveness in any car including Phaetons. I was told that the NTB (National Tire and Battery) chain uses a device of this type, but don't know for sure.


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

well everything is working except the navi system. Will get in to get that fixed/replaced soon.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hi Todd:
What's wrong with the nav system? Is it losing track of position again?
Michael


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Yes, it is mis-tracking most all the time. Usually starts in the near vicinity, but heads off at a 90 degree direction of the real travel direction. about 10% of the time it actually tracts properly. Everything else seems to be working as expected. It never puts me far away anymore (such as Cleveland when I am in Detroit as it did once). It still thinks I can drive across H2O. A few times it tracked in the correct direction but off by a few city blocks


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Another failure. passenger side headlight first change color (to a reddish hue), then flickered off and on, and now has failed completely. Hoping just a bad bulb.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hi Todd:
It could be a bulb, but it could also be a loose connector as well. 
There have been reports of isolated problems *in Europe* of problems with the electrodes in bulbs used up to production week 31 of 2005. This is an Osram problem (Osram being the company that makes the bulb), not a Volkswagen problem.
I don't know if these bulb problems would carry over to North America or not because we use totally different light assemblies here in North America (they might look the same from the outside, but trust me, they are different on the inside). For that reason, I don't want to raise any false alarms by suggesting that the European technical bulletin about this subject (TP 2010938/7) would apply here in NAR or not - I don't have enough knowledge to say.
The problem only affects a small number of bulbs that begin with a lot number Q2_ through to Q5D in positions 1, 2, and 3 in the illustration below. Bulbs with a lot number higher than Q5D should not exhibit problems. Volkswagen is aware of the problem, so, there should be no difficulty at all getting the bulb replaced - heck, even if there was not a bulb problem, the 4 year 50,000 mile warranty covers these bulbs. Again, I don't know if any of these bulbs were used in NAR vehicles or not - I can't recall anyone ever mentioning that a xenon bulb has failed in their Phaeton.
Michael
*Osram Xenon Bulb Lot Numbers*


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael,
Seems odd how the bulb is acting. Still flickers when I start the car and then goes out. I am now getting a warning message from the car (which didn't happen at first.) I would be surprised if a xenon bulb burned out in less 2 1/2 years. Will have it in to the dealer soon (navi still crazy).
Todd


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*

Hi Todd:
I would probably be more suspicious of the _connector _to the bulb than to the bulb itself. If there is any degradation of the connector, it will be more apparent when everything is cold - in other words, when the bulb is first illuminated.
Michael


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Michael
I haven't had a chance to get in for service and I'm glad I haven't. Oddly things are going bad again. You know about my navi and headlight problem. But now the radio is acting up again, the tire pressure monitor is not working, seat memory won't, etc. All the same problems we had before are slowly starting to happen again. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this?
On a different subject, has anyone had problems with windows opening in the cold? every morning that the temp is below 32 deg F my windows won't open. Frozen shut. Even if there was no precip the night before. All 4 windows are affected. Eventually the car warms up enough and they start working. Very annoying since I need my ID to get into work.
Todd


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_...every morning that the temp is below 32 deg F my windows won't open. Frozen shut. Even if there was no precip the night before. All 4 windows are affected. Eventually the car warms up enough and they start working. 

Hello Todd:
I have never encountered that problem with windows, even at -20°C.
I wonder if perhaps there is some kind of dirt or or other (foreign) residue in your window channels (the felt-like slots that guide the window) that is hygroscopic? Perhaps try lowering the windows fully when the car is indoors, then cleaning out the window channels using a toothbrush. After that, vacuum them using one of those narrow slot-like adapters on the end of a vacuum cleaner. Don't forget to also clean the horizontal strip that runs across the top of the door itself - the bit that seals the outside bottom of the window against the body of the door.
Michael


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_Michael
I haven't had a chance to get in for service and I'm glad I haven't. Oddly things are going bad again. You know about my navi and headlight problem. But now the radio is acting up again, the tire pressure monitor is not working, seat memory won't, etc. All the same problems we had before are slowly starting to happen again. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this?
On a different subject, has anyone had problems with windows opening in the cold? every morning that the temp is below 32 deg F my windows won't open. Frozen shut. Even if there was no precip the night before. All 4 windows are affected. Eventually the car warms up enough and they start working. Very annoying since I need my ID to get into work.
Todd

I certainly don't have the knowledge or experience that Michael has on this, but having said that I'm going to stick my neck out. 
It strikes me as too great a coincidence that all these problems, occurring at the same time and including the simultaneous failure of all four windows, are not connected in some way. Possibly the old power management/charging scenario all over again? Let's not forget that colder weather puts an additional strain on batteries and may be exposing this issue.


----------



## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_

Address 38: Roof Electronics
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605
Coding: 0000047
Shop #: WSC 01065
1 Fault Found:
00220 - Connection to Sunroof 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Even though Todd has reported multiple problems with the sunroof, that fault code can be safely ignored. Again, we know from experience that just about every Phaeton in the world will generate that particular code from time to time, even when there is nothing at all wrong with the car. It seems that there is a little error somewhere in the source code for that controller that causes that error message to be generated even when everything is working perfectly. Another 'always ignore this one' fault code that is often generated by the roof controller - but was not present on Todd's car - reads as follows:
00222 - Connection to Rain Sensor 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Trust me about these ones - if you see either of these codes, just forget that they exist. I once did a diagnostic scan on a brand new Phaeton that was sitting on the piazza in front of the Transparent Factory in Dresden - the car had about 20 kilometers on it, and it was in perfect shape - and guess what, both of those fault codes showed up. Like I said - if you see those two, just disregard them. They don't cause any harm, the owner never sees them unless he or she has a diagnostic scan tool, so for that reason, there is no point in VW replacing a $400 controller just because it generates two spurious fault codes. 



Michael-
I had the ground fault message you discussed in another post and had them look at the rear dome light using information you had about the pinched wire in yours. They didn't find any problem, so I'll be curious to check that with a Vagcom again in the future.

Robert


----------



## tcampbel1965 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (rscharf)*

Michael
Had the passenger side headlight replaced for the tune of $600 dollars. Seems the dealer had to remove the bumper to get to the bulb. Guess it was the bulb after all. Couldn't find anything else wrong and oddly everything is working normal again (except the windows). Wondering if if one electrical component goes bad, everything acts weird?? Will have to wait and see. Just seems odd that when they replaced the bulb and that error message went away, the tire monitor system started working, the navigation started tracking properly, stereo stopped acting haunted, etc. Hmmm
Todd


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (tcampbel1965)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcampbel1965* »_Just seems odd that when they replaced the bulb and that error message went away, the tire monitor system started working, the navigation started tracking properly, stereo stopped acting haunted, etc. 

Hi Todd:
The Phaeton technicians normally hook a battery charger up to the left hand battery of the Phaeton the moment it comes into the shop for any service of any kind. This is a very important action - if the left hand battery becomes discharged for any reason, you will get iatrogenic consequences in a whole slew of other controllers, for example, tire pressure, navigation, stereo, and so forth.
So, based on the information you have provided here, my speculation is that perhaps your left hand battery was discharged when you brought the vehicle into the shop to get the light fixed, and the technician (unknowingly) charged it up fully whilst he was replacing the bulb. Once all those other controllers started getting supplied with the correct voltage from the battery, the problems that had low voltage as their root causes then went away.
If those problems come back again in the future, and if you have already had your battery management controller upgraded to a C or D suffix controller as a result of the TB cited earlier in this thread, then it would make sense to ask the technician to check the status of the left hand battery using the Midtronics battery tester. That is explained in detail on this post: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement. In the meantime, take special care to ensure that you do not inadvertently discharge the left battery yourself. In practice, this means don't leave the ignition on for more than 5 minutes without starting the engine.
Michael


----------



## kgclark75 (Apr 14, 2006)

*TB 26-06-02 Expired*

I'm getting ready to schedule one of my final service visits before my warranty expires and wanted to get this RVU, but see that it expired less than 2 weeks ago. Why would an RVU expire?


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB 26-06-02 Expired (kgclark75)*

Kevin:
Are you thinking of TB 66-06-02, 'Customer States Exterior Pillar Trim Corrosion' (discussed at this post: TB 66-06-02 - Exterior Pillar Trim Corrosion on Phaeton Doors, or are you thinking of TB 27-06-02, 'No Start, Load Intervention Faults, Electrical Consumers Not Functioning Properly (Campaign OH)', which is discussed at this post: Electrical Problems (includes TB 27-06-02, RVU, Campaign OH)? I can't find a TB beginning with the number '26' that affects the Phaeton.
In any case, TB's and certain RVUs (Required Vehicle Updates) expire because VW doesn't believe it is necessary to leave them active for eternity. In other words, if your car has worked satisfactorily for the past 49,000 miles, it is likely that there is no need to replace the part (presuming it is TB 27-06-02 that you are referring to).
If you still want to have the TB carried out, perhaps ask your VW dealer why they did not carry it out during one of your previous service visits - in other words, the first time you visited after June of 2006, which was when the TB was issued. However, my take on the issue is that if you have not had any low battery related problems in the last year, the controller in your particular vehicle probably does not need to be replaced.
Michael


----------



## kgclark75 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: TB 26-06-02 Expired (PanEuropean)*

Michael-
I was referring to the 27-06-02 RVU, although coincedentally, I also have a B-pillar with bubbling, peeling paint that I am having repaired with the other TB.
It turns out, after speaking the the Phaeton hotline, that the dealer had already performed the Battery Maintainer replacement on my last visit...good news.
Thanks for your help...
Kevin


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: multitude of electrical problems (PanEuropean)*

Campaign OH - the TB that mandates replacement of B suffix battery management controllers with C or higher suffix battery management controllers - is now finished, ended, over, history.
VW's rationale is that if an existing B suffix controller has been functioning satisfactorily for the past 2 or more years (a given, considering that the last B version controller was installed on very early build 2005 Phaetons), then it is not affected by the problems that other B version controllers had. I can agree with this thinking.
Below is the official announcement.
Michael


----------



## steveskinr (Oct 31, 2007)

This is for general information since it is titled Electrical Problems. 

I had the alternator replaced since the overhead lights flickered at about 4 Hz when the engine was running. The lights were steady when the engine was off. 

Fidelity picked up the cost. 

Alternator $410 parts + $176 labor 

Steve


----------



## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

*Faulty generator causes 4 Hz flickering?*



steveskinr said:


> I had the alternator replaced since the overhead lights flickered at about 4 Hz when the engine was running. The lights were steady when the engine was off.


 I saw this problem on another post. Because of my electronics background, I was thinking about a possible cause. I suspected the battery or the controller, because the frequency of flickering was constant and not depending on the RPM of the engine - and generator. 
My theory was that 4 Hz would correlate with the decision time of the controller of 0.25 mS. When the battery is in a poor condition, then oscillation of 4Hz could occur. 
So, did the new generator solve your problem? What was the result of the CCA test on your battery? 

Willem


----------



## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

steveskinr said:


> This is for general information since it is titled Electrical Problems.
> 
> I had the alternator replaced since the overhead lights flickered at about 4 Hz when the engine was running. The lights were steady when the engine was off.
> 
> ...


 Steve: 

I'm really impressed with the reasonableness of the cost for the alternator replacement. That sure means they did not have to remove the engine unit. Do you know if they gained access to the alternator through the wheel well? 

Hope that resolves your issues with flickering overhead lights. 

Jim X


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Jxander said:


> That sure means they did not have to remove the engine unit.


 It is only necessary to drop the engine to replace the alternator if the car has a W12 engine, this due to how tightly packed into the engine compartment that large engine is.

The procedure for replacing an alternator in a V8 Phaeton is well documented and does not call for the engine to be removed.

Michael


----------



## steveskinr (Oct 31, 2007)

Willem 

Clever. Very clever. 

You may very well be right. I had him replace the comfort battery and alternator on the same visit to the dealer. I do not know in which order he did the work. Further troubleshooting of this will need to be left to others now. Maybe the flickering is another possible symptom of a bad battery. 

If I had known the frequency was significant, I would have pulled out a watch to get it more exact. 

But the problem is fixed. 

Cheers 

Steve


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note: * Related discussion from Summer 2011 - Discharged Batteries, Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement.

Michael


----------

