# MS3 and Injector Dead Time for Bosch 42# Ev1 Green Tops - IDLE issues



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Since things have been very slow around here, I figured I would start a discussion 

quick background before Dead Time disc.

I've been running MS since I built this unit on MS1 extra, Eons ago. I have *always* run Closed Loop idle (AFR/EGO that is) and really had things very tight on the old MSExtra HR10 code (even with these large 42# on my G60 4cyl). I am hyper critical about idle and general tune which is the reason I went away from the Digi/Chip tune mess. My car was "wife approved" on MS. :laugh:

Went to MS3 years back and also had things tuned very well and idle good, but finicky at times. Recently, went to 1.51 Firmware and things seemed to go astray. Re-tuned, tried idle table, etc with mixed results. Oddly had to change warm up tables and everything with this firmware. Sometimes, idles good, and sometimes it has crazy swings. It otherwise run superb at every MAP and RPM. I have the MS3 Extra board but it's for my new engine to go fully sequential, so still running inj on Mainboard paired into 2 banks and Alt 2 squirts.

Always used "Simple" vs PID AFR/EGO as I have never been able to get good results with PID even using various values (seems counter intuitive as an engineer), but whatever. I am not the only one with contention using PID as there us a big thread on MS Forum which you may all know. Thought maybe 1.5.1 would fix issues, but I guess there is only logging for PID vars.

Finally, changing my good old LM1 wideband and have a LC2 with the LSU 4.9 sensor on the way to try out.

Anyway, my real question (for now) is around the Dead Times for these good old Bosch 42# green Top EV1's. I want to rule this out. I know I should scrap these, but my new motor has some nice late style 550's and, recall, I had this thing idling perfect in Closed loop AFR/EGO for many years. I have went through many threads here and on msefi forums, but conflicting info and confusion on how to enter params for some data I acquired for these. Ironically, I always had the default MS Dead Time of 1ms and never knew the wiser.

Ken (I think it was or maybe James) on MSextra forum stated in a thread to use:
.7628 Dead Time
PWM Duty = 100%
PWM Time = 25.5 ms

Assuming I would need to turn on Current Limiting for these params? These were for these 42# inj. What about Inj Period? Why is default 66 vs 60?

I also found old threads here from Paul and Jeff mentioning .69 (iirc) Dead Time for these, but no other params or correction curves.

I have also found the following (which is what I am currently running):
Dead Time = .970
Curve of
8v - 202
10v - 143
12v - 111
13v - 97
14v - 82
15v - 75


In addition, not related for MS, I found what seems to be viable inj table for these injectors, but I have no idea how to go about entering these since I am assuming the values are in V vs ms and TunerStudio uses V vs %?
Inj Lag Time (Dead Time)
10v - 1.14
11v - 0.92
12v - 0.75
13v - 0.64
14v - 0.56
15v - 0.49


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I should also mention that when changing to 1.5.1, I did configure the engine states, etc. I do (and always have) run Fuel Cut, so I did have to makes some changes for new Firmware.

I also noticed (not sure when this started happening, but suspect when AE changed and MAP dot was added) that I was actually getting AE triggered at times when large idle swings were happening. Probably cause of erratic idle in the past, but this has been changed, so not issue any longer.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The ev1 green tops are pretty variable but all my data centers around .9-1ms at 3-5bar base and more past that.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Thanks Paul for the confirmation.

Have you had any issues with ms3 firmware 1.5.1? Not much on the forums and I don;t want to post a non-relevant issue. Also, I suspect no, but do you know if the code would be any different for Mainboard injectors vs Extra Board?

When I get the LC2 installed and re-tune, I will report. The LM1 was tired, way too clunky and I am sure it was time for a new sensor (12+ yrs  ) I also ordered a tinyIO board from Jean, so am curious how that works as well, but will be secondary after LC2 install.

I changed a lot of stuff in MS when I went to 1.5.1 and some out of necessity. Just seems strange that my whole warmup ASE tables had to change completely. Don't have an ISV and never used the IDLE VE Table prior.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The code shouldn’t do pw differently on main vs 3x. However the drivers are different and can show different dead times.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Looks like I am well on my way to perfection.

Installed the LC2 with the 4.9 sensor. Wired it up and got good results (better than I was expecting with shared ground). So, I used the Warm up Output Voltages in varying to log differences in MS. Got them pretty much spot on.

I also installed the JB Perf TinyIOx to read the innovate Chain Directly and Digitally, so we shall see when I get that cable today or tomorrow.

Main problem was that I changed too much before, so main issue was PID settings, and some other tweaks like EGO Lag, etc. I also think the 12 year old sensor on my LM1 was failing


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I fought with the TinyIOx and spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get it work properly. Finally, today, I think I have all issues resolved.

LC2 is NOW communicating to MS3 via CAN through TinyIOx. No more ADC offsets (regardless of how small, etc).

Took if for about 1hr drive and did some re-tuning.

I am considering doing a write-up for TinyIOx if there is some interest. Info is sporadic, at times mis leading, etc. Even on JB Perfs forums. There just needs to be a straight forward (UP to DATE) write up.


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