# Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (long)



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

I purchased a Forge Diverter valve after my OEM “C” diverter valve failed after 16,000 miles. Instead of opting to purchase another C valve, I decided to try the forge unit due to their claims of quicker spool, OEM response, more peak boost, and better boost holding throughout the mid to upper RPM ranges. The unit itself is very nice. The forge DV is a mechanical piston actuated valve that is controlled by an OEM N75 solenoid. I’m not sure whether or not the solenoid itself is the OEM unit or a one-off for Forge by Pierburg, but the solenoid arrived with all the part numbers ground off (much akin to OEM units that MTM sells). The t-fitting was probably one of my favorite components of the kit and I would like to see it be made available for purchase by itself sometime in the future *hint hint*. After receiving the unit, I noticed that several of the hose fittings on the diverter valve were slightly loose and required my attention with some red loctite. Not a big deal, but with the amount of threads available on the diverter valve unit, I feel as if the hose barbs used should have been provided with more threads than those on the t-fitting unit. The install went fairly well, although I opted to use real hose clamps on the ends of the 10mm hose instead of zip ties. I also found it easier to locate the bracket holding the solenoid on the bottom most attachment hole of the diverter valve, thereby allowing for ease of install as well as enough play in the wiring harness. After trimming all the hoses to leave the least amount of length between the connections, I secured the hose with small zip ties and fired up the engine. 
On initial impression, there were no noticeable differences. Vacuum on my boost gauge stayed the same, boost seemed to rise and fall similar to normal. There was slightly less noise from the forge unit compared to the OEM “B” valve I was running in the interim while waiting for the forge to arrive. Under mid to high throttle driving, boost pull felt the same as stock and as responsive as stock when going on throttle. The only negative I noticed was that shifting seemed to be less smooth as the engine was not as smooth and responsive going out and back into throttle. 
Interested in what was going on, I ran a set of logs using the new “turbo” function in advanced measuring blocks of VAG-COM. “Turbo” allows for much greater sample rate across multiple logging channels. In each of the logs, I was sampling about 6-8 samples per second on each channel. The blocks I specifically looked at were engine speed (RPMs), boost (block 115) as well as throttle plate opening (block 003). The procedure of testing was designed to address each of the claims Forge has made regarding this valve. 
The first test I did on both OEM and the Forge DV was to measure the response and duration of the venting from 20psi to 1070mbar (slightly above atmosphere). I chose 20psi as it was an easy # to hit and hold, and 1070 mbar seemed to be a good number where all the logs leveled out at. Coupled with the throttle plate logs, the very first point on the graphs indicate the throttle plate at full opening. The subsequent data points were when the throttle plate was moving to closed (off throttle completely). 








As shown, with the OEM valve (red), releasing the throttle instantaneously opens the DV allowing it to recirculate the boost back onto the intake side of the turbo, leading to an immediate drop in pressure measured at the MAP sensor. Forge (light blue) on the other hand, was slower in reacting, with a consistent ~.3s delay before boost was vented. During this delay, boost pressure in the system would spike between 2-5psi (observed) as the turbine was still spinning, but the throttle plate was closed and the DV was not venting. 








In the subsequent photo, I removed all the non- corresponding forge plots. The plots left were determined by how close they were to the starting PSI and RPM of the OEM plots. There were more OEM plots that were not graphed due to their overlapping nature. Forge on the other hand was much more RPM (think vacuum) dependent on when it would begin to release pressure. The slopes of both OEM and Forge curves were relatively similar, indicating that the Forge is relatively similar to the OEM valve in terms of flow.








When measuring going-into-boost performance, I coasted at a given RPM and went WOT. Based on when I went WOT I graphed time vs PSI, showing how quickly it took both the Forge and OEM plots to reach 20psi. The plot I have attached shows the relative differences in rate when starting logs at different RPMs. The two closest plots between Forge and OEM differed actually only by 80RPMs in the logs but the slopes and overall curves are similar enough to indicate no improvement in boost holding capability when spooling-up the turbo.








Lastly, I performed an overall 4th gear pull from 2040rpms to 64XXrpms. Throttle plate was pegged at WOT for the duration of the run and all logs were performed on the exact same road to ensure consistency. Again, no noticeable change between Forge and OEM. There was slight higher spike in PSI up top, but slightly lower PSI hold in the midrange by Forge. Nevertheless, the differences between the logs were not significant enough to render a clear advantage of one valve over the other.
After four days of logging and double-checking my findings, I had several questions:
_Where does the delayed response come from?
What are the effects of slow response?
How can the response be improved?_
The source of this lag and consequent surge is based in the design of the diverter valve itself. While the Forge is marketed as an electrical solution, the actuation of the valve is still purely mechanical. In order to understand how the mechanical valve functions, I have included a few diagrams I created illustrating how the forge valve in both “open” and “closed” situations. 
















As shown from the diagrams, the main component in opening the diverter valve still relies heavily on the vacuum created when the throttle body closes. Actuating the solenoid does not induce vacuum; vacuum is only created when the throttle body closes. The solenoid is simply there to determine whether pressure can or cannot enter the back of the DV piston. However, actuating the solenoid and forcing the back of the piston not to see as much pressure as produced by the compressor outlet does create a slight pressure differential. It is my belief that this slight differential is not enough to open the DV piston given the latency that is still present in the opening of the valve—the valve still requires the increased pressure differential provided by the throttle plate closing and creating vacuum in the system. 
The main component responsible for the valve’s behavior to a pressure differential is the spring in the piston. Removing the green spring from the forge valve reveals a very high rate spring. Because of this, the cracking pressure of the forge DV is subsequently high, thereby requiring a greater pressure differential in order for the valve to open. 
As observed from the logs, there were spikes in boost pressure measured at the MAP sensor after throttle was released. These spikes wouldn’t register on a regular boost gauge since the boost gauge tap is located behind the throttle plate, on the intake manifold side. The spike in boost is in the pre-throttle plate tract including the intercooler and compressor outlet of the turbo. 








Under normal OEM operating conditions, the boost present in this pre-throttle body tract is immediately vented and recirculated back to the intake side of the turbo, in order to avoid backpressure on the turbine which would cause the turbine to slow down. Given that with the Forge, backpressure is not only present but increased, due to the increase in pressure as a result of the latency in valve opening, it can be assumed that the turbine is significantly slowed down during the .3s until the valve opens. 
The term surging is often loosely defined, but I believe I have found some reliable descriptions using Google. Both descrpitions seem to indicate the formation of backpressure, which in turn slows down the turbine. In addition, the second description is more elaborate and specifically mentions throttle plate closure and the buildup of pressure at the discharge as a result of the bypass valve not releasing. 
"Surge is the situation when the compressor "spits out" more air than the engine can swallow, which causes a backup of air at the intake and it actually creates reverse-flowing pressure waves that can be very damaging to the turbo"

_Quote »_“Typically, surge occurs after the throttle plate is closed while the turbocharger is spinning rapidly and the by-pass valve does not release the sudden increase in pressure due to the backed-up air. During surge, the back-pressure build-up at the discharge opening of the compressor reduces the air flow. If the air flow falls below a certain point, the compressor wheel (the impeller) will loose its "grip" on the air. Consequently, the air in the compressor stops being propelled forward by the impeller and is simply spinning around with the wheel, which is still being rotated by the exhaust gas passing through the turbine section. When this happens, the pressure build-up at the discharge opening forces air back through the impeller causing a reversal of air flow through the compressor. As the back pressure eventually decreases, the impeller again begins to function properly and air flows out of the compressor in the correct direction. This sudden air-flow reversal in the compressor can occur several times and may be heard as a repetitive "WHEw Whew whew" noise if the surge is mild (such as when the by-pass valve is set a little too tight) to a loud banging noise when surge is severe. Surge should be prevented at all costs because it not only slows the turbocharger wheels so that they must be spooled back up again but because it can be very damaging to the bushings or bearings and seals in the center section.“

Given these descriptions and the data from the forge DV, I would carefully say that the Forge valve is inducing surge. Several other users have reported hearing “surge” after installing the forge DV, and it is possible that it is actually occurring. Most of these users have intakes which are essentially “filters on a stick” that amplify the sound. Unfortunately in this case, I have a carbonio which utilizes the stock airbox that mutes any intake noise. In addition, my car is also fitted with a full set of VF mounts as well as a downpipe, so any audible surge would be muted out by engine and exhaust noise. 
Well what could be done in order to improve the response of the forge DV? 
The two ideas I’ve thought of are: _reducing the spring rate of the valve and/or installing a vacuum reservoir. _
A reduction in spring rate would improve response by lowering the cracking pressure required to open the DV. On the same note, if the spring rate is lowered too much, then the Forge would “flutter / crack open” as boost was ramping up before the pressure is able to equalize on both sides of the piston. Unlike the OEM valve, the forge piston is completely flat and sealed, thereby relying on the pressure from the compressor outlet, traveling through the solenoid and to the opposite side of the piston in order to equalize the pressures. On the other hand, the OEM valve has holes in its “piston” face, allowing pressure to flow to the back of the valve, instantly equalizing the pressures between the front and the back of the piston, which is also why it can get away with a much lower spring rate (~1lb/inch). I would recommend forge owners to try to keep the silicone lines running from the valve to the solenoid as short as possible in order to reduce the overall volume and distance the pressure needs to travel for maximum response and performance.
The second option would be utilizing a vacuum reservoir, much akin to those found on the 1.8ts. A vacuum reservoir would make DV function more independent from RPMs and throttle plate closure as it would provide a more instantaneous source of vacuum to create a pressure differential and thereby retract the piston. In addition, the vacuum reservoir would improve overall consistency of the latency at which the forge valve opens, as it was shown that with greater RPMs at which the throttle plate was closed, the quicker the forge valve responded as vacuum was created sooner in the intake manifold. 
In conclusion:
-	Forge vs OEM showed no significant improvement in boost holding capability
-	Forge vs OEM showed no significant change in boost ramp-up
-	Forge exhibited no improvement in mid-range and upper RPM boost over OEM
-	Forge showed a ~.3s decrease in response over OEM when recirculating boost
-	Forge exhibited comparable rate of releasing boost to OEM
-	Forge increased backpressure on turbine compared to OEM, as observed by a 3-5psi pre-throttle body spike. 
- The Forge valve is still a mechanical diverter valve and still relies on vacuum from the throttle plate for recirculating boost, whereas the OEM DV relies on electricity to retract the piston and recirculate boost.
Ultimately, I ended up removing the forge DV from my vehicle after performing and analyzing the logs. All lines to and from the forge valve were checked to ensure there were no obstructions or pinching off of the line which would cause the valve to malfunction. Whether or not .3s latency in boost release is pertinent or not, it certainly exists with this valve. Being a 6mt owner, I mainly opted to remove it simply because between each shift, load drops to 0 and the throttle plate closes (thereby subjecting me to the possible surge condition more). Owners with DSG may not find this to be an issue as between shifts, the engine stays in boost as there is still load being placed on the engine as a result of the wet clutches slipping to disengage and engage. The forge valve certainly offers a more durable, rebuildable DV option, however the response simply cannot match that of OEM. Since it took approximately 16k miles for my “C” diverter valve to “blow” I’ve opted to chance it again with another OEM valve. It is also likely that in the future, VW/Audi will offer yet another DV revision with a different diaphragm material which may be more resilient to bursting. Unfortunately, the forge valve didn’t meet my expectations as a more durable replacement for the OEM valve in terms of performance. 
Dave


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## c1rcausa (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*

Great write up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (c1rcausa)*

Got Cliff's notes?


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

Thanks for putting in the time and effort on that review!


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## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

Wow, very thorough and interesting. Food for thought.


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## f_399 (May 8, 2006)

*Re: (bripab007)*

damn nice write up
i took mine out less than a week after i got it
i realized i was happy boosting 20+ with the stock dv 
if the stock dv breaks ill buy another stock one


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (iThread)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iThread* »_Got Cliff's notes?

he went back to stock.


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
he went back to stock.









great write up though


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## 355890 (Aug 10, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (chris86vw)*

Excellent...I am so glad you shared this information.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

This is one of the most thorough and informative write ups on this piece to date. I would love to see what Forge themselves have to say.


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## alf_ftw (Jan 2, 2007)

goood job.


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## OG KHUSH (Apr 21, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*

Sweet Review! You saved me some $$$ I'll keep my stock DV and let them keep replacing it under warranty (Had mine done at roughly 28Kmi)!


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## BIGNICKSGTIS420 (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (alf_ftw)*

You are the man a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to you . keep it up


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

Well the conclusion I am grabbing out of this is that performance is basically the same when using a stock sized turbo and the OEM valves still fail. 
I'm still getting forge unit and never worrying about my DV again.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_Well the conclusion I am grabbing out of this is that performance is basically the same when using a stock sized turbo and the OEM valves still fail. 
I'm still getting forge unit and never worrying about my DV again. 

Surge.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_Well the conclusion I am grabbing out of this is that performance is basically the same when using a stock sized turbo and the OEM valves still fail. 
I'm still getting forge unit and never worrying about my DV again. 

I am sure Forge will provide some data to address the comp. surge. If it is truly surging, that would be a very bad thing.


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## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

After thinking about this for a bit I'm wondering if the noise people with tubular intakes have reported could really be surge. According to the data posted the potential area of surge only occurs for .3 seconds. Would that be long enough to be detectable to the human ear in a moving vehicle?


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_Well the conclusion I am grabbing out of this is that performance is basically the same when using a stock sized turbo and the OEM valves still fail. 
I'm still getting forge unit and never worrying about my DV again. 

Your right... You will be worrying about your turbo. When I first noticed this I did about 3-4 consecutive WOT and then off the gas in my DSG and I could have sworn I smelled something cooking. 
Looking forward to some friendly debate on this:


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_After thinking about this for a bit I'm wondering if the noise people with tubular intakes have reported could really be surge. According to the data posted the potential area of surge only occurs for .3 seconds. Would that be long enough to be detectable to the human ear in a moving vehicle?

.3 seconds is a fairly long time. I also would think that perhaps GTI owners would hear it more if they still have the noisemaker pipe assembly installed. Nothing of the sort comes on the A3. Either way, .32s was the average I found during my testing. Sometimes it was longer, sometimes it was shorter. All the connections were trimmed to prevent any excess since less volume to fill = better response. Another member has contacted me regarding doing the same testing and I believe he has an EVOms so perhaps he would be better suited to comment on it. 
Dave


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

Good write up Dave. I like seeing empirical evidence in this forum for a change. I am wondering if a change in spring rate would help as well. I have the trusty old 1.8t valve spring kit so I will wait till forge responds before i try switching them. If i recall correctly the Green is the toughest spring that forge utilizes. Maybe the red or the blue would be better.
Did you get any of the needle shaking issues that many others have had? what would you attribute that to?
Edit: also do you think that temperature can have some effect on either valves effectiveness? 



_Modified by Rub-ISH at 7:49 PM 7-13-2007_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_Good write up Dave. I like seeing empirical evidence in this forum for a change. I am wondering if a change in spring rate would help as well. I have the trusty old 1.8t valve spring kit so I will wait till forge responds before i try switching them. If i recall correctly the Green is the toughest spring that forge utilizes. Maybe the red or the blue would be better.
Did you get any of the needle shaking issues that many others have had? what would you attribute that to?
Edit: also do you think that temperature can have some effect on either valves effectiveness? 

IIRC, Forge mentioned that the 007 springs would not fit on their valve. Nevertheless, I believe they would have selected the lowest spring rate that would hold boost for our application anyways in order to have the best response. 
The needle shaking is attributed to the diameter of opening in the boost gauge tap. [email protected] mentioned that their machine could not make a smaller hole, therefore many have opted to hack old no-buzz fittings or simply live with it. I found a slightly smaller vacuum restrictor at advance auto parts and used that in-line with the boost gauge tap.
Temp shouldn't have much of an effect considering once the engine is warmed up, the temperature stays relatively constant around that region. 
Dave


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*

This is a very good review, I must say, nice write up... 
To me, maybe it's just me, but this looks like a review a company did, and instead of bashing it themselves. They help write a review to bash a product, for their own valve which is coming out soon? These logs are a little advanced for the normal vag com user. But hey, he could just be damn good.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (97jazzgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97jazzgti* »_
To me, maybe it's just me, but this looks like a review a company did, and instead of bashing it themselves. They help write a review to bash a product, for their own valve which is coming out soon? *These logs are a little advanced for the normal vag com user*. But hey, he could just be damn good. 

Hardly, ask any grad student in the science field and this stuff comes natural when submitting papers for publication. Either way, the only people who had insight into this project were PeteA3, iThread and magilson. I suppose it'd be a big shame if people didn't notice that VAG-COM had the capability to perform these functions with the "advanced measuring blocks" and "turbo" function








Dave


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## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_Hardly, ask any grad student in the science field and this stuff comes natural when submitting papers for publication. Either way, the only people who had insight into this project were PeteA3, iThread and magilson. I suppose it'd be a big shame if people didn't notice that VAG-COM had the capability to perform these functions with the "advanced measuring blocks" and "turbo" function








Dave

Wow







Good write up! Im glad I went with a different solution.. I still have no surging, no codes, no cels or anything with it!


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## Dyno Mike (May 28, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*

Nice write up Dave. I really appreciate the effort and time this review took. My "butt dyno" has never been very accurate, so I'm really digging the growing availability of data-logging and chassis dynos. I need to get more familiar with my Vag-com


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## DeathMoJo (Oct 8, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (Dyno Mike)*

excellent write-up!! I'd love to hear what Forge has to say!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_

The term surging is often loosely defined, but I believe I have found some reliable descriptions using Google. Both descrpitions seem to indicate the formation of backpressure, which in turn slows down the turbine. In addition, the second description is more elaborate and specifically mentions throttle plate closure and the buildup of pressure at the discharge as a result of the bypass valve not releasing. 
"Surge is the situation when the compressor "spits out" more air than the engine can swallow, which causes a backup of air at the intake and it actually creates reverse-flowing pressure waves that can be very damaging to the turbo"
Given these descriptions and the data from the forge DV, I would carefully say that the Forge valve is inducing surge. Several other users have reported hearing “surge” after installing the forge DV, and it is possible that it is actually occurring.


Great job Dave http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If this is in deed "compressor surge" everyone is experiencing ,you will be able to confirm this with logging your MAF readings.







Bob.G


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*

I just pulled of my Forge DV and put back on the original OEM. I left the forge spacer on as I lost one of the short screws. I still have some surge noise that I can hear from through the EVOMS. Not as much as when I had the forge on. I also noticed that the Forge spacer is much louder than with the Forge DV. Under low RPM's the "Blow-off is almost instantaneously vs. a slight delay on with the Forge DV. Now that I understand this better, I can't imagine how the Forge could faster.
I am wondering if the Forge spacer adds to the problem by not letting enough air out fast enough. Or maybe it is a combo of the spacer and the EVOMS sucking much more air? This whole thing is like sounds like "the perfect storm."
BTW the small O-ring on my Forge DV was melted flat when I pulled it out of the spacer. Not sure what that was about.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

hmm, after reading this I'll wait until forge says something or makes an improvement, OR another solution comes out that ends up being better than stock.


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: (vrsix kevin)*

It's clearly mechanical vs. electric speed. No arguing about that
The real question is there (100% without doubt) surge during this 0.3s delay? And did Forge tried there best engineered solutions to minimize this delay? Or this DV can be improved further?
Also curios to see the same logs from DSG equipped 
Cheers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Great job Dave http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If this is in deed "compressor surge" everyone is experiencing ,you will be able to confirm this with logging your MAF readings.







Bob.G


I would like to see that data, but Im not ready to abandon the Forge valve presently. 3 tenths of a second is significant but it isnt setting of any soft codes the way that the ecode solution did. I am not trying to say there isnt a problem, but I am trying to gauge how much wear and stress tolerances can the current Ko3 sustain? The 1.8t K03 could take all kinds of abuse> I.E. people over running open waste gates or boost machines that spike out to 25lbs.
Dave did you by any chance do some partial throttle logs??? I have always felt the improvement of the forge valve while on partial everyday driving situations. I mean WOT is a good measure but how often are you running like that. To be clear im not trying to start a web battle, i just want to assess if I am indeed doing damage to my turbo, or at least more damage than if i were to run a leaky DV. 
cheers


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## GreekDemon (Jan 3, 2007)

Great review
-1 for Forge


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_
I would like to see that data, but Im not ready to abandon the Forge valve presently. 3 tenths of a second is significant but it isnt setting of any soft codes the way that the ecode solution did. I am not trying to say there isnt a problem, but I am trying to gauge how much wear and stress tolerances can the current Ko3 sustain? The 1.8t K03 could take all kinds of abuse> I.E. people over running open waste gates or boost machines that spike out to 25lbs.
Dave did you by any chance do some partial throttle logs??? I have always felt the improvement of the forge valve while on partial everyday driving situations. I mean WOT is a good measure but how often are you running like that. To be clear im not trying to start a web battle, i just want to assess if I am indeed doing damage to my turbo, or at least more damage than if i were to run a leaky DV. 
cheers 

The problem with part-throttle logs is that they are hard to standardize. I certainly have plenty of part throttle data since I would start the log from my house and drive to the area where I would do the logs. The other issue with PT logs is that say you're accelerating up to a certain speed and hold the RPM. Boost naturally falls off as load is decreased, thereby you wouldn't see the closure of the throttle plate which creates the surge condition as evidenced above. The latency in release would keep the boost a little bit high, but you certainly don't see a 3-5psi spike. With 6mt, I go into WOT a lot without thinking about it. During a normal start, I short shift from 1st to 2nd, go WOT in 2nd until 3500rpms or so, and then skip a gear into 4th. Keep in mind that WOT doesn't require redlining the engine.
IIRC the code the ecode setup was throwing was the short to ground code, which was caused by an improper resistance of the bypass plug they used. I don't believe there were any boost-related codes.
Dave


_Modified by crew219 at 3:16 AM 7-14-2007_


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## AngryCustomer (Oct 31, 2004)

This thread proves how little some people ACTUALLY understand turbo induction engines on this message board. 
For those of you that are "abandoning" your Forge valves....words can't even describe how gullible you are. 
He has proven NOTHING. For anyone with half a brain, they could have predicted his findings. In the Disel truck world, this is ancient technology. Some of you people think it's revolutionary or something...
To address the whole "backpressure" misconception...how the hell do you think a Jake Brake works on a tractor trailer?!? It uses the engine AS A BRAKE. Backpressure is always present in the system, and no, the forge valve will NOT cause surging. I bet 90% of you have no idea what surging really is....
*sigh* 
/thread


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (AngryCustomer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AngryCustomer* »_This thread proves how little some people ACTUALLY understand turbo induction engines on this message board. 
For those of you that are "abandoning" your Forge valves....words can't even describe how gullible you are. 
He has proven NOTHING. For anyone with half a brain, they could have predicted his findings. In the Disel truck world, this is ancient technology. Some of you people think it's revolutionary or something...
To address the whole "backpressure" misconception...how the hell do you think a Jake Brake works on a tractor trailer?!? It uses the engine AS A BRAKE. Backpressure is always present in the system, and no, the forge valve will NOT cause surging. I bet 90% of you have no idea what surging really is....
*sigh* 
/thread

Perhaps you should revisit how tractor trailer engines are different from gasoline engines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake
Dave


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
The problem with part-throttle logs is that they are hard to standardize. I certainly have plenty of part throttle data since I would start the log from my house and drive to the area where I would do the logs. The other issue with PT logs is that say you're accelerating up to a certain speed and hold the RPM. Boost naturally falls off as load is decreased, thereby you wouldn't see the closure of the throttle plate which creates the surge condition as evidenced above. The latency in release would keep the boost a little bit high, but you certainly don't see a 3-5psi spike. With 6mt, I go into WOT a lot without thinking about it. During a normal start, I short shift from 1st to 2nd, go WOT in 2nd until 3500rpms or so, and then skip a gear into 4th. Keep in mind that WOT doesn't require redlining the engine.
IIRC the code the ecode setup was throwing was the short to ground code, which was caused by an improper resistance of the bypass plug they used. I don't believe there were any boost-related codes.
Dave

_Modified by crew219 at 3:16 AM 7-14-2007_

I Guess im just gonna have to wait for forge to speak up on this one...But im not so concerned at the moment


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## 355890 (Aug 10, 2006)

*Re: (AngryCustomer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AngryCustomer* »_This thread proves how little some people ACTUALLY understand turbo induction engines on this message board. 
For those of you that are "abandoning" your Forge valves....words can't even describe how gullible you are. 
He has proven NOTHING. For anyone with half a brain, they could have predicted his findings. In the Disel truck world, this is ancient technology. Some of you people think it's revolutionary or something...
To address the whole "backpressure" misconception...how the hell do you think a Jake Brake works on a tractor trailer?!? It uses the engine AS A BRAKE. Backpressure is always present in the system, and no, the forge valve will NOT cause surging. I bet 90% of you have no idea what surging really is....
*sigh* 
/thread


Whow !







4 paragraphs - 2 of which contain nothing but useless chatter....1 paragraph containing a quote on a different type of engine...and final a mention about a an operational brake on a trailer.
Please tell you have more to offer in response than what you have provided !


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (Spongebobnopants)*

Here are the picts of the removed Forge DV. Per the instructions, I used the extra O-ring supplied with the DV in conjunction with the forge spacer. Could the surge and or slight delay cause additional heat to cook this O-ring. I did have the same DV on the car without the spacer and it looked fine when I took it off to add the spacer. This thing also had a decent amount of oil on it. (probably normal, since it is venting out.)


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Lets give Forge some time to read the post, do some logging on their own, and formulate a response. I'm sure none of us would be satisfied by a generic "we tested it thoroughly and it works perfectly" response. Give them time to get everything together. No need to light the torches and grab the pitchforks yet!


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_Here are the picts of the removed Forge DV. Per the instructions, I used the extra O-ring supplied with the DV in conjunction with the forge spacer. Could the surge and or slight delay cause additional heat to cook this O-ring. I did have the same DV on the car without the spacer and it looked fine when I took it off to add the spacer. This thing also had a decent amount of oil on it. (probably normal, since it is venting out.)


Wow, that o-ring looks awful. I'm pretty sure forge is using Viton O-rings which have a temp rating of up to 400F. The grease they use is only functional up to ~350F. I wonder if it is a bum O-ring or if the temps the DV is seeing are in excess of the tolerances of the O-ring. Oddly enough, the other o-ring seems to be ok.
Dave


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Lets give Forge some time to read the post, do some logging on their own, and formulate a response. I'm sure none of us would be satisfied by a generic "we tested it thoroughly and it works perfectly" response. Give them time to get everything together. No need to light the torches and grab the pitchforks yet!

They said they'd have that data a _long_ time ago. It was requested even before they officially released their solution. So it would seem that everyone up until this point has been satisfied with "we tested it thoroughly and it works perfectly" which is ironically what everyone attacked e-code for saying...


----------



## SMkVGTI (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Wow, that o-ring looks awful. I'm pretty sure forge is using Viton O-rings which have a temp rating of up to 400F. The grease they use is only functional up to ~350F. I wonder if it is a bum O-ring or if the temps the DV is seeing are in excess of the tolerances of the O-ring. Oddly enough, the other o-ring seems to be ok.
Dave

Or that particular O-ring is incompatible with the oil supplied with the DV kit. O-rings (black in particular) look too much alike and it's hard to tell, for most people, the difference between a FETFE, Viton, or Kalrez O-ring (except when the bill comes, lol).


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (SMkVGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SMkVGTI* »_
Or that particular O-ring is incompatible with the oil supplied with the DV kit. O-rings (black in particular) look too much alike and it's hard to tell, for most people, the difference between a FETFE, Viton, or Kalrez O-ring (except when the bill comes, lol).

That O-ring came with the DV kit and it had the red oil on it already. Of course that does not mean it was the correct one. I am glad it is off now. i am not sure what would happen if some of that stuff broke off and worked its way to somewhere it shouldn't be. Maybe some of it did?


----------



## Sp00nman (Apr 16, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review*

BUMP for FORGE!! and to watch this topic


----------



## SLYMK6 (Apr 22, 2005)

I just had this put on today, literally. I'll have to watch this topic as well. Picking up the car tonight.


----------



## jhnr (Nov 30, 2006)

wow.. great stuff, damn Forge must be thinking of a good comeback.


----------



## Dragon911 (Jun 15, 2007)

*Re: (jhnr)*

Anyone else have power loss/boost loss after hearing the Forge DV make a queef sound between shifts? The car then goes into limp mode for about 10 seconds, but then regains power. 
I installed my Forge DV about a month ago, it seemed fine. Two weeks ago, I was flashed to the Revo Stage II and now I'm having issues.
I haven't had a chance to do any data logging yet. Its hard to repeat the problem, but a friend offered to help with the data logging next week.


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (jhnr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhnr* »_wow.. great stuff, damn Forge must be thinking of a good comeback.

Or because it's the weekend, and the company isn't on vortex 24/7


----------



## FlyingTurtle (Mar 26, 2006)

*Re: (Dragon911)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dragon911* »_Anyone else have power loss/boost loss after hearing the Forge DV make a queef sound between shifts? The car then goes into limp mode for about 10 seconds, but then regains power. 
I installed my Forge DV about a month ago, it seemed fine. Two weeks ago, I was flashed to the Revo Stage II and now I'm having issues.
I haven't had a chance to do any data logging yet. Its hard to repeat the problem, but a friend offered to help with the data logging next week.

your problem sounds like fuel cuts to me. Human nature, path of least resistance. Just blame it on Forge now.... Check your PCV, also your Neuspeed discharge kit. If there is anything related to Forge DV, it might be an installation issue perhaps?


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_IIRC the code the ecode setup was throwing was the short to ground code, which was caused by an improper resistance of the bypass plug they used. I don't believe there were any boost-related codes.


I don't know where you get your information... there were a number of posts about ecode's kit throwing N249 "mechanical malfunction" codes.
You're arguement is that the flaw in Forge's solution is its vac actuated... then you argue that another vac actuated valve doesn't have the same flaw?










_Modified by digitalhippie at 1:37 AM 7-15-2007_


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*

If there is an issue with vac being present at the manifold, there's a pretty easy solution.... a small vac canister with one-way valve inline with the vac line going to from manifold to forge dv solenoid


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*

I just looked thru some of my old logs with stock "C" valve... and on a number of them I see the same after-throttle-release-boost-spike that crew is blaming on the forge valve:








And here is another graph/log from a friend's GTI running STOCK SOFTWARE AND STOCK "C" DV:








That post-throttle-release spike is there in both...
*Keep in mind, "TURBO" is used in all of my logs/graphs*


_Modified by digitalhippie at 3:16 AM 7-15-2007_


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_I also found it easier to locate the bracket holding the solenoid on the bottom most attachment hole of the diverter valve, thereby allowing for ease of install as well as enough play in the wiring harness.


Figured that all by yourself huh? Sure that wasn't one of the 20 questions you asked me on IM before attempting to install it?

_Quote »_crew219: do you remember which hole you put the bracket on?
PHPGuruCU: lower
PHPGuruCU: facing down
crew219: ah the easiest one to get to right?
PHPGuruCU: bingo ;-)
crew219: sweet
crew219: i really didn't want it to be the upper one




_Modified by digitalhippie at 2:44 AM 7-15-2007_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_I just looked thru some of my old logs with stock "C" valve... and on a number of them I see the same after-throttle-release-boost-spike that crew is blaming on the forge valve:








And here is another graph/log from a friend's GTI running STOCK SOFTWARE AND STOCK "C" DV:








That post-throttle-release spike is there in both...
*Keep in mind, "TURBO" is used in all of my logs/graphs*



Interesting but the testing is quite different. Your spikes are significantly smaller, not to mention the RPM at which the pressure is released. 
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/...nt=47
Compared to the REVO logs above, you can certainly see a much less significant spike. Either way, log throttle plate vs boost and you'll certainly see the phenomena with the Forge but not the stock. Point is, the Forge valve has been significantly slower and you see a significant buildup of backpressure. You simply don't with the stock valve.
Dave


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

Figured that all by yourself huh? Sure that wasn't one of the 20 questions you asked me on IM before attempting to install it?


Yep, thanks. If forge's instructions had been a bit more application specific, I wouldn't have had to ask. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Here's a diagram I drew up for another member who asked me how I installed it. 








Dave


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_If there is an issue with vac being present at the manifold, there's a pretty easy solution.... a small vac canister with one-way valve inline with the vac line going to from manifold to forge dv solenoid

If that's how easy the solution to this problem really is then why wouldn't Forge supply the necessary parts to correct it? Just last night I asked my friend for his 1.8T vac canister setup so what you've suggested has already been considered. For $250 dollars I wish I wasn't having to buy hose clamps, better vac line, and someone's old vacuum canister setup...


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_I just looked thru some of my old logs with stock "C" valve... and on a number of them I see the same after-throttle-release-boost-spike that crew is blaming on the forge valve:
_Modified by digitalhippie at 3:16 AM 7-15-2007_

I have never seen this behavior in my car before or after any of the mods I've installed. If you've seen this pre-Forge then what did you determine was causing it?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

Figured that all by yourself huh? Sure that wasn't one of the 20 questions you asked me on IM before attempting to install it?

_Modified by digitalhippie at 2:44 AM 7-15-2007_

DH, we all know you were personally asked to test this setup by Forge and that Forge gave you plenty of free swag for your work. There is no need to get as upset over this as you seem to be, we are all just looking for an explanation, not for your personal attacks against crew.


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_Interesting but the testing is quite different. Your spikes are significantly smaller


*You claimed 3-5psi spike, that is EXACTLY what the first graph shows. Can you READ??*


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_If that's how easy the solution to this problem really is then why wouldn't Forge supply the necessary parts to correct it? Just last night I asked my friend for his 1.8T vac canister setup so what you've suggested has already been considered. For $250 dollars I wish I wasn't having to buy hose clamps, better vac line, and someone's old vacuum canister setup...


Why don't you give forge a chance to respond before you threaten to hang people... wow, what an impatient moron you are


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_I have never seen this behavior in my car before or after any of the mods I've installed. If you've seen this pre-Forge then what did you determine was causing it?


I didn't invetigate what was causing it, I've seen that spike on MANY boost logs on MANY cars with stock DVs.


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_DH, we all know you were personally asked to test this setup by Forge and that Forge gave you plenty of free swag for your work. There is no need to get as upset over this as you seem to be, we are all just looking for an explanation, not for your personal attacks against crew.

No, its more complicated than that. I actually helped them solve some of the issues with the valve. So I have a lot of insight into it.
Besides, unlike other people here, I've never tried to hide my relationship with Forge. Its a fact that Dave (crew) was paid off by APR.... so what are you getting out of it, fanboi magilson? What "swag" did they promise you?? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Don't throw accusations around without knowing the whole story.
And no matter what... its a dick move to claim credit for something you didn't do yourself... no matter how small. Says a lot about someone's character







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Modified by digitalhippie at 11:53 AM 7-15-2007_


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*

*Keep in mind everyone... anytime someone has had an issue or question with a forge product... Mike and the others have been right there, ready.... willing... and able to assist.
So, why didn't Dave bring his findings to Forge? Instead he posts them publicly to try and discredit their product. Probably because he's been paid off by APR. Just like his previous REVO threads trying to fling mud at them and their product. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
If this problem does indeed exist, give Forge a chance. I'm more than certain they'll make everything right.*


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*

We know all know that APR is coming out with a DV... So why not discredit the other compaines? We know this has happened in the past with chips before... and I wonder who was behind that? I wonder which person started that? Oh I know? The same person who made this thread.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_
No, its more complicated than that. I actually helped them solve some of the issues with the valve. So I have a lot of insight into it.
Besides, unlike other people here, I've never tried to hide my relationship with Forge. Its a fact that Dave (crew) was paid off by APR.... so what are you getting out of it, fanboi magilson? What "swag" did they promise you?? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Don't throw accusations around without knowing the whole story.

Actually I've never received anything but insults from people involved with the manufacturers themselves. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't fly off the handle and stick to facts. I obviously hit the nail on the head with your involvement with Forge or you wouldn't have reacted so rudely. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (97jazzgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97jazzgti* »_We know all know that APR is coming out with a DV... So why not discredit the other compaines? We know this has happened in the past with chips before... and I wonder who was behind that? I wonder which person started that? Oh I know? The same person who made this thread. 

The really cool part is that other people can verify this. No one needs to rely on Crew's data alone. You have no idea how many times I warned Crew that this was going to happen, that people would rather mudsling than verify anything on this forum. Go out and test, people! Verify this for yourselves!


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (97jazzgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97jazzgti* »_We know all know that APR is coming out with a DV... So why not discredit the other compaines? We know this has happened in the past with chips before... and I wonder who was behind that? I wonder which person started that? Oh I know? The same person who made this thread. 


Yep, Keith tried to pull the same crap when Forge announced the release of their DV... really makes me want to get involved with that company http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_I obviously hit the nail on the head with your involvement with Forge or you wouldn't have reacted so rudely. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


"fly off the handle" ROFL, guess you don't know me at all, I reacted the way I did because you like to make unfounded accusations without knowing any of the facts involved... again, I've NEVER had to hide my relationship with forge, unlike other people around here. You can take that however you will.


_Modified by digitalhippie at 11:59 AM 7-15-2007_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

Yep, Keith tried to pull the same crap when Forge announced the release of their DV... really makes me want to get involved with that company http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

I'm not sure it's any better than getting involved with a company who likes to employee people who resort to name calling rather than giving a logical explanation of any kind.








Seriously. Stop. Calm down. Give an explanation in a rational way or wait for Forge to show up and act professionally if you cannot.


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
I'm not sure it's any better than getting involved with a company who likes to employee people who resort to name calling rather than giving a logical explanation of any kind.








Seriously. Stop. Calm down. Give an explanation in a rational way or wait for Forge to show up and act professionally if you cannot.

Dude have you read some of the threads where Keith has personally attacked some of the forum members? Two wrongs don't make a right, but when you jump on someones back about something and try to start an Anti thread what do you expect?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

ROFL again... I am not, and have NEVER been employed by forge.

What were those items you got from Forge for free? You know, the ones they gave you for testing the valve? I call that employment.
I don't care that it happened, but don't pretend it didn't to save face. I've "waited" for data for a long time. I asked for it in the original thread. They never intended to give any data until this thread came out. I don't even care if Crew's observations were isolated so long as Forge is accountable for that data after the way you tore up ecode. The worst thing that happens is that we learn this was an isolated behavior and everyone goes on their way. I'm sure everyone out there is waiting for Forge's response so calm down.


----------



## badapag (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*

I agree with angry in the fact that everyone on this forum jumps from idea to another without any facts. Their are two sides to every debate. Before this post, forge dv's were the talk of the town. Now burn them at the stake. 
While most people on this forum are worried about what color side markers they have on the mkv, I actually was one who purchased the forge dv and installed it and without any fancy charts can notice the more crisper shifts and spooling. If my memory service me correct, a dv isn't suppose to give you more hp and I don't believe forge is claiming 20+psi spikes. So everyone chill out and go install those clear side markers on your car.








For what it's worth,
Badapag


----------



## notquiteanewbie (Sep 5, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*

I think this has gotten just a bit off topic. I am interested in the results of this discussion but don't really care for all the drama. It's a beautiful weekend, enjoy it. Hopefully Forge responds tomorrow.
-Raphael


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*

guys dont get this thread locked before Forge even gets to speak on that matter. I know that their response is coming. 
Its Sunday Go outside, Go to church, Go to the strip club, Do what ever it will take to get your rocks off then we can fight about this tomorrow...








Lets not resort to amateur hour just on page three


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_I don't care that it happened, but don't pretend it didn't to save face.


*I have not denied it or pretended it didn't happen even once. Can you even read??*
Sick of repeating myself.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_
Its a fact that Dave (crew) was paid off by APR.... so what are you getting out of it, fanboi magilson? What "swag" did they promise you??

_Modified by digitalhippie at 11:53 AM 7-15-2007_








I give 10% discounts to Vortex Members alot over the phone. I gave Dave free software for testing just like we do for anyone that tests our products, online and print media, distributors, clients, sponsorships, relatives, etc.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (97jazzgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97jazzgti* »_
Dude have you read some of the threads where Keith has personally attacked some of the forum members? 








I would like to clarify that to "response to other advertisers". Not forum members like the general public by any means.


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_







I give 10% discounts to Vortex Members alot over the phone. I gave Dave free software for testing just like we do for anyone that tests our products, online and print media, distributors, clients, sponsorships, relatives, etc.

At least the truth comes out. People want to accuse me of having alterior motives because I was given one free item in return for work I did, but they ignore the fact that I'm not the only one getting handouts from manufacturers.
Big difference is, I don't seem to constantly post threads bashing the competition. Yes, I was adamant about how piss poor the e-code solution was.... but that was LOOOONG before I had any involvement with Forge.... and LOOOONG before I recieved any "swag"....
People need to get facts straight.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_
At least the truth comes out. People want to accuse me of having alterior motives because I was given one free item in return for work I did, but they ignore the fact that I'm not the only one getting handouts from manufacturers.


This is a practice followed by almost every company in every industry. You release new products and need feedback and testing from a lot of different perspectives.
This feedback leads to better products that appeal to more people.
I also like to provide testing to skeptics as well. I like to see our toughest critics try our products so they can evaluate them for themselves as some people will make preconceptions without ever having sampled for themselves.
APR stands behind every product we offer and everyone is more than welcome to test, provide data and feedback and we will paticipate in the discussion.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

I checked this post yesterday and it seemed to be going pretty well, until the barrage of digitalhippie posts between 1:30 and 2:30am
digitalhippie, is it absolutely necessary for you to insert yourself in every post and cloud it with your supremacy and extreme fanboism?

_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

Figured that all by yourself huh? Sure that wasn't one of the 20 questions you asked me on IM before attempting to install it?

......And all I woulda expected from somebody I helped via IM is a "thanks", when I coulda been getting credit everytime they make a post.

_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_If there is an issue with vac being present at the manifold, there's a pretty easy solution.... a small vac canister with one-way valve inline with the vac line going to from manifold to forge dv solenoid
Oh, OK, now that we have a "DV solution", all we need to do is come up with a "vacuum at the manifold solution"









_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

Why don't you give forge a chance to respond before you threaten to hang people... wow, what an impatient moron you are
Ok let me IM a mod and ask him to shut down the 2.0t forum for the weekend till Forge gets a chance to hop on here

_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_*Keep in mind everyone... anytime someone has had an issue or question with a forge product... Mike and the others have been right there, ready.... willing... and able to assist.
So, why didn't Dave bring his findings to Forge? Instead he posts them publicly to try and discredit their product. Probably because he's been paid off by APR. Just like his previous REVO threads trying to fling mud at them and their product. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
If this problem does indeed exist, give Forge a chance. I'm more than certain they'll make everything right.*
So we have to call Forge, or send them an IM before posting things in here? Wow this stuff is getting complicated, good thing we have the "2.0t hero" here to help us out
I never got the impression that crew was trying to discredit Forge. So he spent $250 on the product just to take it off so he could discredit them? Looking at all the logs and reading his opinion of what is happening, I don't recall seeing any http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif that you use when you discredit people. "Give Forge a chance", I was eagerly waiting to see what they were gonna post monday, but now since this thread probably isn't gonna make it that far, I'd rather concentrate on digitalhippie's spectacular heroism.
All this aside, I still think I'm gonna pick one up at Waterfest, pending Forge's response


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Ahh, I <3 the idiots on here!
My posts started with questioning crew's "facts". Yes, I pointed out that he was claiming credit for something... because I found it funny that he had to ask me 20 questions about installing it, now fancies himself the DV expert. Makes me chuckle.
Then came the accusations about how I was paid by Forge and employed by Forge. Sorry if I defend myself; sorry if I prefer the truth. If people want to make accusations about me being a paid-off fanboi... I think its important they know the facts about who else has gotten manufacturer hand outs.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_Ahh, I <3 the idiots on here!
My posts started with questioning crew's "facts". Yes, I pointed out that he was claiming credit for something... because I found it funny that he had to ask me 20 questions about installing it, now fancies himself the DV expert. Makes me chuckle.
Then came the accusations about how I was paid by Forge and employed by Forge. Sorry if I defend myself; sorry if I prefer the truth. If people want to make accusations about me being a paid-off fanboi... I think its important they know the facts about who else has gotten manufacturer hand outs.
Did I say anything about you being paid off? I'll take money or free **** anyway I can get it, so ya won't get critisism from me there. Nah, your posts are riddled with jealousy that somebody else made an effort and you can't be the center of attention today. 
I have people IMing me often about carputers, I don't request that they give me credit for their efforts. Nor do I recall Crsseyednsmilin (or whatever his new SN is) doing that to me because I got some ideas from his post.
This doesn't stem merely from this post, but from just about every one of the posts I see you make. The disgust has grown over time.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

I should have made it more clear in the original post that it is ludicrous to expect two completely different design valves to perform exactly the same in response, durability, flow & etc. What I have shown is where OEM and Forge are similar and where they are not.
When the forge valve was released, there were two different ways which the valve was marketed. The first one was that the valve is simply a more durable replacement to OEM. The second way it was marketed was as an upgrade with people citing areas in which it outperforms the stock valve. Both forums of thought were expressed by Forge, which was contradictory given the conflicting messages they were giving to the consumer. Mike did in fact promise vag-logs with the release of their valve & etc, but they never came. I even offered to help them with the logs, but they told me that they had it "under control". No hard feelings at all. I wasn't planning on purchasing the valve until more consumer testing was performed until my stock valve blew while i was passing an 18 wheeler who was speeding up during the pass. 
Why did I post it up instead of giving forge a heads up? Well my response to that is: why should I? They didn't pay me to do testing, I purchased their valve, and every other VAG-COM post of mine has been done without giving the manufacturer prior warning. Heck, if I had collaborated with Forge on this post, I'm quite sure there'd be other members accusing me of slighting the facts to benefit Forge.
Although I don't believe this should be addressed in this thread since it is completely O/T, I should set the facts clear between my relationship with APR. I was first approached by Keith to test out their software when I had REVO. My opinion at the time was that REVO was the best, but frankly I had very little comparison to the competition. While all the companies had buggy first-version softwares, i knew everyone had released new versions to address many of the pros/cons found in the initial 3-chip review. It was a no-strings-attached deal, and Keith knew going into it 100% that I would be posting my results online. Seeing as how I had a dealer nearby, I opted to take him up on the offer. I didn't go into it thinking I'd get a "free" chip, I went to the shop like any other customer, getting a trial flash. Keith simply organized it so that I would not have to pay any dealer install fees. After I had performed my testing, it was clear how both softwares differed, and which software was better in my opinion. Since I would have rather had APR's software at that point, Keith comp'd it and upgraded my chip to the full version. 
Well why only APR and REVO? I tried contacting GIAC to see if they would be interested in participating in something similar with their Tyrolsport dealer flashing me, but I never received a response back from them. Ultimately, my intention was to provide a similar review to that of parks853's thread, with updated chip versions which would be more relevant to the current line of offerings. 
I think one other aspect people fail to consider is the amount of time, thought, fuel, and vehicle wear/tear logging takes. Yes, I may have received my second chip for free, but the amount of manhours it took and the overall cost of logging really doesn't make it a lucrative deal at all. Ultimately, the consumer, not the company benefits from more information being on the market. I prefer hard empirical evidence over marketing, and don't care what brands I have on my car, as long as it is the best solution.
Dave



_Modified by crew219 at 12:14 PM 7-15-2007_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

To address the spiking behavior DH noted in his logs:
I ran a few more logs at lunch with the stock valve and didn't find the same behavior at all. The one point where there was a small spike was at a data point which went from 99.6% to 97.9% throttle plate opening and pressure increased by 10mbar = ~.15psi. The way which I performed all the logs was the same and under controlled conditions on the same roads & etc. I have gladly emailed further detailed instructions to everyone who has PMed or asked me about it. 
The one thing I failed to consider was that I have the Neuspeed discharge setup on my vehicle which eliminates the turbo muffler. Since flow is reversed during recirculation, it is very possible that the lack of spikes I have seen with the OEM valve is because a flow restriction was removed in my pressure tract. This may also be why I have never heard a "fluttering" noise from the OEM DV when letting off throttle. I certainly know that with the installation of the discharge setup, going in and out of boost was smoother and significant less noisy. 
Nevertheless, both Forge and OEM DVs were tested with the same engine hardware, thus the information is relevant to each other. The fact that there is a consistent and clear latency in the forge valve response is undeniable. The spike in PSI is merely a reflection of the consequences of the slower response. 
Dave


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Nah, your posts are riddled with jealousy that somebody else made an effort and you can't be the center of attention today.

I don't care about being the center of attention. And I couldn't possibly care less what you (or anyone else for that matter) think of me, its no skin off my back.
I got the same load of **** when I pointed out the flaws of the ecode setup.... but in the end, I was right about it. As I always say, I'd rather be right than popular.


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## ESP_OFF (May 24, 2007)

*Re: (sirtuckswell)*

Subscribed.. as an owner of a Forge Valve I definitely want to see how this thread turns out and what Forge's response will be.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

This is getting way too personal...its time for EVERYONE to turn it down a notch or this thread will get locked and no one will benefit.
DH was provided a diverter valve from forge for his efforts, and crew was provided software from apr for his.
It will be a level playing field if we can all just stick to the FACTS in this case and not make it so personal. I fear that the data presented from any side will be skewed by emotion and that won't benefit any of us. I'm also quite sure that if the dramatic battle continues the thread will get locked and that won't help ANY of us in our quest for some answers here. Time to turn it down a notch fellas, no one wants to see this information get thrown away because of emotion.


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_Why did I post it up instead of giving forge a heads up? Well my response to that is: why should I?


Maybe because Forge offers full refunds if you're not 100% satisfied.... but instead you sold yours in the classifieds. Did you tell the purchaser of the used valve that you had these doubts??
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

You sound stupided every time you open your mouth. The error codes, and the flutter, were proved to be related. Guess you and crew have selective memories.
Haha, I didn't open my mouth I typed. Now, when you type the word "stupided" it doesn't get your point across that I'm less intelligent than you.
Any further discussion you would like to have with me as to what I think of you or how "stupided" I am, IM me, K fella?


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Haha, I didn't open my mouth I typed. Now, when you type the word "stupided" it doesn't get your point across that I'm less intelligent than you.
Any further discussion you would like to have with me as to what I think of you or how "stupided" I am, IM me, K fella?


That's just completely idioctic... clearly "open your mouth" was used to refer to your typing... in the digital sense, that is opening your mouth...
Wow, a typo, so that clearly proves your intelligence. Or it proves that I'm a pretty busy person, and I don't spellcheck everything I post when I'm in the middle of workin on other things.
K fella? go get a hobby


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*

The main issue with the 2.0T DV valves have been spotty durability,so the MAIN advantage I can see is that,if anything,the FORGE DV takes that unreliable valve out of the equation,which I see is a huge +.
I will have to add that crews stating ".3 seconds is a LONG time"......that is just paranoia propaganda







......Almost every turbo car built,bar the newest/latest models have been equipped with mechanically/vacuum actuated valves,and they ALL will have some sort of mechanical delay,since it is a mechanical device!!!Those milllions of turbo cars with vacuum operated BOV/DV to suffer premature turbo wear due to .3 delay is just preposterous...I mean what about these turbo cars that hit 100K + mileage with standard vacuum valves and same turbo!!








Have fun crew,since you make it "LOOK" credible with your colorful graphs and whatnot,but IMO is just "MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING"....








The usual I guess


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_The main issue with the 2.0T DV valves have been spotty durability,so the MAIN advantage I can see is that,if anything,the FORGE DV takes that unreliable valve out of the equation,which I see is a huge +.
I will have to add that crews stating ".3 seconds is a LONG time"......that is just paranoia propaganda







......Almost every turbo car built,bar the newest/latest models have been equipped with mechanically/vacuum actuated valves,and they ALL will have some sort of mechanical delay,since it is a mechanical device!!!Those milllions of turbo cars with vacuum operated BOV/DV to suffer premature turbo wear due to .3 delay is just preposterous...I mean what about these turbo cars that hit 100K + mileage with standard vacuum valves and same turbo!!








Have fun crew,since you make it "LOOK" credible with your colorful graphs and whatnot,but IMO is just "MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING"....








The usual I guess








I think the point of this post is just that there is a delay with the Forge valve and not the OEM, not the outcome of the delay. I appreciate knowing about it, even tho it may not cause harm whatsoever. Why attack crew just for making this post. Like I said, I saw nothing malicious written in the OP. Even if he was bashing the hell out of it, I just take these posts for the information, not the opinion.
Now I don't know if it's enough of a delay to cause harm to the turbo. I can see the concern tho. There's enough of a delay between the throttle plate closing and the valve opening to cause a spike in boost. I don't recall seeing spikes like that in other cars. Usually a slight delay in valve operation is OK in 1.8t's cuz boost helps to force the piston (or diaphragm) to open. It would be nice to have a log like this from a 1.8t to see if there's a boost spike just after laying off WOT.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

If the .3 seconds delay really is nothing to worry about then I'm sure Forge will have no problem proving so.
The whole point to this thread is that a question was raised...will the .3 second delay and resulting boost spike cause damage or reliability concerns to our turbos AND/OR cause performance issues.
That is what needs to be answered here. If it indeed is perfectly safe...answer the call of the OP with HARD FACTS to that effect and at that point we should all be able to sleep soundly knowing we have a superior product keeping our turbos boosting to their potential safely.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

I ran a few logs yesterday with the OEM valve back in. I still have the Forge spacer. I am very green with vag-com and am not sure I did everything right. Apparently when you do a normal log you can pick up to 3 groups. Group 003 and 115 is what I logged... What I noticed is that when you open them in Excel each group has a different time stamp. For instance if I look at (003)Throttle angle (time stamp 1.18) in the same row as (115)Boost actual it has a (time stamp of 0.98) This is a 0.2 sec difference. Do I need to go into advance measure to get them recorded at the same time? I also used turbo mode and I am only getting about 4 reads per second....Is this right. Crew's looked like his was logging much faster than mine. I have more testing to do...
I did notice on the drive that throttle response seemed quicker without the forge DV. Maybe the bad O-ring was causing some problems so take this comment with a grain of salt. 
The other thing I noticed is I still had some surge sound, but only at WOT in lower RPM's. WOT at 5500-6k and drop of the throttle gave no surge noise. Boost at these RPM's is lower so it seems to handle that ok. Tomorrow I will put it in stock mode and see if that makes any difference.


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## 355890 (Aug 10, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_The main issue with the 2.0T DV valves have been spotty durability,so the MAIN advantage I can see is that,if anything,the FORGE DV takes that unreliable valve out of the equation

I would rather here from Volkswagen / Audi themselves and maybe a solution to this claimed UNRELIABILITY of the OEM DV. I mean a multi-million dollar research LAB, they MUST have heard something by now. The "D" version on your store shelves soon. 
ME, well I have no issues with my OEM DV and when I question those concerns about this failure that I keep reading about on this forum the Service Manager at 2 different dealerships have indicated that they don't see much of an issue in this area......... but then..bottomline... I really don't beat the S*** out of my vehicle either. 
But just in case I bought a spare "C" valve and it is currently collecting dust in my workshop...so... whenever that moment comes about, I'll be ready.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_I ran a few logs yesterday with the OEM valve back in. I still have the Forge spacer. I am very green with vag-com and am not sure I did everything right. Apparently when you do a normal log you can pick up to 3 groups. Group 003 and 115 is what I logged... What I noticed is that when you open them in Excel each group has a different time stamp. For instance if I look at (003)Throttle angle (time stamp 1.18) in the same row as (115)Boost actual it has a (time stamp of 0.98) This is a 0.2 sec difference. Do I need to go into advance measure to get them recorded at the same time? I also used turbo mode and I am only getting about 4 reads per second....Is this right. Crew's looked like his was logging much faster than mine. I have more testing to do...
I did notice on the drive that throttle response seemed quicker without the forge DV. Maybe the bad O-ring was causing some problems so take this comment with a grain of salt. 
The other thing I noticed is I still had some surge sound, but only at WOT in lower RPM's. WOT at 5500-6k and drop of the throttle gave no surge noise. Boost at these RPM's is lower so it seems to handle that ok. Tomorrow I will put it in stock mode and see if that makes any difference.
I'm not a pro, but I've done a few logs. I usually log whatever value with an RPM value so I can compare. The timestamps don't matter. Each group is sampled one at a time so the timestamps won't be the same but they will correlate when graphed. I think you get a better sample rate when doing 1 or 2 groups rather than 3 at once.


_Modified by blackvento36 at 11:14 PM 7-15-2007_


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## BetaOp9 (May 4, 2006)

I've got the Forge DV on my car, after killing two stock 'c' valves within 5k miles of each other, I needed something else. Even if the stock DV is under warranty, the dealer will only replace it so many times when you have mods. What really attracted me is A) Lifetime warranty, B) Increased Reliability, and C) Peace of mind knowing that if it does fail, I'll always have a replacement. I read, heard, or saw no promises anywhere of increased performance in any aspect. 








I also rather keep the electronic connection of the DV with the ECU to maintain it's functions for traction control and the like.
Tangent: It's easy to see that some people need hugs in this thread. Please PM me if you'd like one. Thanks!


_Modified by BetaOp9 at 9:14 PM 7-15-2007_


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## BetaOp9 (May 4, 2006)

Ooops double post.


_Modified by BetaOp9 at 9:19 PM 7-15-2007_


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (BetaOp9)*

Here's some more logs... these are from 3 different cars, with a mix of forge and stock DVs... I won't even bother saying which is which, because the spike occurs in them all, and it varies from <1psi to up to 4psi on both stock and forge valves.

























































As soon as crew posts up details of his testing protocol, I'd be glad to run more logs too.


_Modified by digitalhippie at 2:40 AM 7-16-2007_


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote »_PHPGuruCU:	so what were your test procedures?
crew219:	finally ready to talk like an adult?
PHPGuruCU:	gonna answer my question? thought you gave the procedures to anyone who asked....
crew219:	yep
crew219:	although none of them didn't go out of their way to defame me all over the boards
PHPGuruCU:	if you wanna hold out, it will only be made to look bad for you... not wanting to cooperate makes it seem like you have something to hide... honestly, you already know I log all IM convos...
PHPGuruCU:	plus, I've already done a number of logs and see that spike on the stock valve no matter which way I look at it.... so I was only asking to make sure my procedure was similar to yours so you can't question the results based on that fact
crew219:	yep
PHPGuruCU:	no matter
crew219:	and all the chat logs show that i've been more than willing to talk to you
crew219:	but you don't bother replying
PHPGuruCU:	lol
PHPGuruCU:	including this one?
PHPGuruCU:	nope
crew219:	i am talking to you aren't I?
PHPGuruCU:	you're not answering the question
crew219:	either way i'm working on a post
crew219:	and i have a perfect explanation of why you're seeing a spike on your logs
PHPGuruCU:	lol, I'm sure you do
crew219:	yep
crew219:	helps having a friend who works at honda racing
crew219:	not to mention a few engineering friends
PHPGuruCU:	look, either tell me what your "protocol" was, or go away... honestly, not interested in your explanations\
crew219:	i'm sure you're not
crew219:	you'd rather throw out insults than facts
PHPGuruCU:	lol
crew219:	and that's what you've been doing all along
crew219:	enjoy that free intercooler
PHPGuruCU:	are you gonna answer my question, or sit on your high horse?
PHPGuruCU:	lol


Yep, Dave is real willing to share his test protocol







I'm wondering if he's afraid someone will prove him wrong. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

*Honestly the procedure should be posted publicly so everyone can try it out for themselves. Don't understand the secrecy there... more data would only help the discussion.*


_Modified by digitalhippie at 7:51 AM 7-16-2007_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_

Yep, Dave is real willing to share his test protocol







I'm wondering if he's afraid someone will prove him wrong. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


No prob buddy, except it is part of the post that I told you that I am currently working on. Either way it is remarkably similar to the description I posted in the first post of this thread, except it expands on Advanced Measuring blocks to only log certain parts of a channel and how peak PSI is most likely going to be different between chips so that the user should find a PSI that they can reliably hold and release at full throttle plate opening in order to keep their data consistent.

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219 from the first post* »_Interested in what was going on, I ran a set of logs using the new “turbo” function in advanced measuring blocks of VAG-COM. “Turbo” allows for much greater sample rate across multiple logging channels. In each of the logs, I was sampling about 6-8 samples per second on each channel. The blocks I specifically looked at were engine speed (RPMs), boost (block 115) as well as throttle plate opening (block 003). The procedure of testing was designed to address each of the claims Forge has made regarding this valve.
The first test I did on both OEM and the Forge DV was to measure the response and duration of the venting from 20psi to 1070mbar (slightly above atmosphere). I chose 20psi as it was an easy # to hit and hold, and 1070 mbar seemed to be a good number where all the logs leveled out at. Coupled with the throttle plate logs, the very first point on the graphs indicate the throttle plate at full opening. The subsequent data points were when the throttle plate was moving to closed (off throttle completely). 

Oh yeah, you forgot to add your last zinger. 

_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_
phpgurucu: are you gonna answer my question, or sit on your high horse?
phpgurucu: lol
phpgurucu: I'll start forwarding you all the IMs/e-mails I get from people who hate you... lol, its great
Changed status to Offline (7:49:46 AM)<---the block!

Facts > internet politics
Dave


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Wow.
The immaturity is astounding.
Mods, can we please clean this thread up so that the facts prevail and not this childish bickering?


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Wow.
The immaturity is astounding.
Mods, can we please clean this thread up so that the facts prevail and not this childish bickering?

Don't forget to leave the facts that this "condition" happens OEM. It's clearly not a forge issue!
cheers http://****************.com/smile/star.gif


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

The issue is not the spike, its the latency.


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_The issue is not the spike, its the latency.

And the spike crew claims is due to the latency. So, they are the same issue, no?


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Don't forget to leave the facts that this "condition" happens OEM. It's clearly not a forge issue!
cheers http://****************.com/smile/star.gif


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Don't forget to leave the facts that this "condition" happens OEM. It's clearly not a forge issue!
cheers http://****************.com/smile/star.gif

It doesn't occur OEM. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








Longer post & etc, etc will be up later today. 
Dave


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*

I never had the spacer on my car before the Forge DV, but with the Forge DV I've noticed letting off the throttle the "PSSHHHHH" noise is not at the exact same time. The noise is very slightly delayed. I figured this was normal on my DSG. I've also noticed small noises which I think may be compressor surge, but I'm not entirely sure. I believe I will be going back to the "C" DV with forge spacer to see if it sounds exactly the same.
I'm very impressed with the write up and logs and would like to see Forges response. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for all the information guys!


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## Daybis (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_I never had the spacer on my car before the Forge DV, but with the Forge DV I've noticed letting off the throttle the "PSSHHHHH" noise is not at the exact same time. The noise is very slightly delayed. I figured this was normal on my DSG. I've also noticed small noises which I think may be compressor surge, but I'm not entirely sure. I believe I will be going back to the "C" DV with forge spacer to see if it sounds exactly the same.
I'm very impressed with the write up and logs and would like to see Forges response. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for all the information guys!

I am getting what sounds to be compressor surge. I made a thread about it. I have the C DV with the forge spacer. After the spacer was installed I got a "fluttering sound". Now I'm worried I have some sort of compressor surge after the spacer was installed.


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

Couple of points:
1) Yes, anytime you hear that "flutter," turkey gobble, etc....it's definitely, without a doubt, compressor surge.
2) Compressor surge in small amounts is not going to hurt the turbocharger.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

If both points prove to be true, are we under the damage threshold with what we are seeing now? Who is qualified to answer such a question?


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_1) Yes, anytime you hear that "flutter," turkey gobble, etc....it's definitely, without a doubt, compressor surge.


If this is the case, then the stock DV suffers the same problem. There are quite a few members on here that reported hearing the fluttering noise, once they installed an intake that wouldn't muffle it, with stock DVs.
My friend Jimmy's GTI, stock software and stock DV, made an awful fluttering noise after he installed an intake. You can ask him how much quieter the car is with the forge dv installed. And he's not the only person I've heard say the car is quieter with the forge dv.
I think, like an intake, people running the spacer are more prone to hearing it because the noise has less to travel through... with the holes right on the spacer the noise exits without traveling back thru the intake pipe.


_Modified by digitalhippie at 12:52 PM 7-16-2007_


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*

Hello all,
First of all, thanks to the OP for all the time taken and for the info provided. I am just seeing this and we are currently up to our ears in Waterfest freight. Forgive me for not jumping right in with a lengthy post but we will surely address a few points a little later today if not when I get home tonight








I will leave you with a few random thoughts, observations and requests for now though....
Our logs, digitalhippie's logs and the logs of all our beta testers showed no significant change from a known working solenoid with the use of our replacement. This is of course aside from the individuals that have noticed an improvement. And let’s not forget the fact that it won't rip








It would appear that your car might be an anomaly and we would have loved the chance to work through it with you, but sadly you have since sold the part. Could you put me in contact with the person that purchased it? I want to follow up with them and be sure that they have a properly working valve. 
Having all worked together here along with help from various outside sources ( big props to digithippie here ) to get this part to market, we do have other ideas that came up during r&d that effect the operation of the valve in various ways ( indeed the principals are common to most if not all valves and can be applied to many of them ) that could be applied to a car that doesn't respond as expected. Vac res, check valves, tee's, softer springs etc. 
I would also urge anyone else that might be experiencing problems to contact us directly. I can be reached at [email protected] and being the US director you can rest assured that I will take your concerns seriously and see to it that they are handled. As mentioned we haven't seen this sort of deviation from standard in our testing and would like to take a closer look, trying to draw conclusions from one data point is tricky at times.
crew219- could you send us the raw data files for us to review? You can use the same email address I supplied above. 
To those of you that are hearing sounds that might be "flutter" or "surge". How many of you are using aftermarket discharge pipes that do away with the piece that has been referred to as a baffle, restrictor plate, etc.? This serves to quell some of the fluctuations in map readings as well as audible "fluttering". Especially when used in combination with intakes.
Spongebobnopants- What spacer were you using with your diverter valve? This is not normal even after much longer periods of use and needs to be looked at closer. Can you give us a shout so we can take care of this or determine the cause? There are specific compatibilities with respect to the o-rings and spacers.
One last thing. Are any of you familiar with the surge line on a compressor map? We need to be careful what we label as “surge” especially when it’s heard after the addition of an intake. Surging involves some pretty high compressor speeds and radical pressure differentials. We’re talking about a unit that operates in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands rpm range all the while making 1-25 psi and running up and down the pressure scale very quickly.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Spongebobnopants- What spacer were you using with your diverter valve? This is not normal even after much longer periods of use and needs to be looked at closer. Can you give us a shout so we can take care of this or determine the cause? There are specific compatibilities with respect to the o-rings and spacers.
One last thing. Are any of you familiar with the surge line on a compressor map? We need to be careful what we label as “surge” especially when it’s heard after the addition of an intake. Surging involves some pretty high compressor speeds and radical pressure differentials. We’re talking about a unit that operates in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands rpm range all the while making 1-25 psi and running up and down the pressure scale very quickly.

I have the FMDVFSiT according to NAM's website. The Forge is down right now so I hope I have that part number correct. It is the full venting and not adjustable.
I ran some logs this morning just hitting the gas and releasing and this is what I am getting with the OEM DV and Forge Spacer.


----------



## Guest (Jul 16, 2007)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

If I understand what you've posted you used the wrong o-ring for that spacer. The o-ring that comes installed on the FSITV valve should be used if installed without a spacer or with the FSIT non-adjustable unit. The extra o-ring that was included in earlier kits is for use only with the FSITA adjustable as its internal depth is greater. Using that o-ring without a spacer or with the non-adjustable would cause exactly what your pictures are showing.
Your plots seem to substantiate the theory that there is some variable specific to Crew's setup that is causing his OEM valve to NOT have the spike, or that there is some error being introduced into his plots so that his curves for the OEM valve are only reflecting data AFTER the spike has occurred. This would explain why the red lines seem to be descending from a higher boost level than what his testing procedures called for.


----------



## Guest (Jul 16, 2007)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

Forgot this part...
Just reinstall the smaller o-ring that was on the valve originally and you should be good to go. And if you've misplaced it drop us a line and we will send you another.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Thank you to Forge for the thread acknowledgment and I look forward to reading the response.


----------



## KingofCancer (Oct 8, 2005)

i generally read both Dave's and DH's posts as I find them to be very informational (word?) and clearly stated. But I don't recall ever seeing the Forge DV as performance enhancing, rather a set it and forget it type set up. I could be very wrong and maybe i just interpretted it this way, I couldn't say. 
other than that i have nothing to add.


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Wow.
The immaturity is astounding.
Mods, can we please clean this thread up so that the facts prevail and not this childish bickering?

Seriously, no one needs you to play dad...


----------



## FlyingTurtle (Mar 26, 2006)

*Re: (KingofCancer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingofCancer* »_i generally read both Dave's and DH's posts as I find them to be very *informational* (word?) and clearly stated. But I don't recall ever seeing the Forge DV as performance enhancing, rather a set it and forget it type set up. I could be very wrong and maybe i just interpretted it this way, I couldn't say. 
other than that i have nothing to add.

informative http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingofCancer (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (AbtSportsline)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AbtSportsline* »_
informative http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

oops, thats it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Tashen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hey guys...
I'm from South Africa.
4 of us have installed the Forge DV and havent found anything negative to date.
All of us immediately noticed that we're holding boost for much longer.
2 of us have Revo stage 1 loaded and noticed a little lag in 4th gear when we still used the stock dv. That lag is now gone.
So we're all curious to see where this Thread is gonna go and what Forge is gonna say.


----------



## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_If this is the case, then the stock DV suffers the same problem. There are quite a few members on here that reported hearing the fluttering noise, once they installed an intake that wouldn't muffle it, with stock DVs.

Agreed. On my homebrew turbo'd Miata, I'm using a Mitsubishi TD04-13C turbocharger off an early 90s Volvo 940, pushing about as much air as it was on the stock car from which it came. The diverter valve on this turbo is diaphragm-based and integrated into the compressor housing, like our VWs, except that it's vacuum-actuated. There are certain situations when, through my cone filter and short compressor intake tract, I can hear compressor surge/flutter, but it's pretty faint, and nothing like what I've heard on some cars. This too, was probably inaudible on the stock 940 Turbo in which it once resided.
In fact, Greddy sells a basic turbo kit for 1st-generation Miatas that includes no bypass valve whatsoever. You should hear the compressor surge on those, running at only 6 PSI







But plenty of people run them like that for years with no discernible problems, save for the fact it takes a year-and-a-half to re-spool the turbo between shifts (or anytime you're modulating the throttle at high load).
Anywho...I'm babbling










_Modified by bripab007 at 3:40 PM 7-16-2007_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Tashen)*

It'd be nice to see a few more logs to see if this is in fact an "anomaly". I plan on picking one up at Waterfest, I'm still not sure that the spike is seriously detrimental. I'll pull some logs and graph them shortly after.
Forge, any idea what the Waterfest price will be?


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Another interesting thing to note is that the OEM DV does indeed have a delay in actuating.
When I was doing my research months ago, I played with a number of OEM DVs on the bench. From the time a charge is applied to the time the plunger is pulled in is easily a few tenths of a second. This is typical of all solenoids. This delay is related to the size of the coil (number of windings). The larger the coil, the longer it takes to form an induction field with enough force to pull in the plunger.
To go further... the solenoid valve being used in the Forge solution, being smaller and having fewer windings, reacts QUICKER to the ECU's signal than the OEM DV solenoid did. Its VERY noticable when you have both solenoids connected to the same power source, then flip the switch... you'll hear the Forge solenoid snap open in half the time of the OEM DV plunger being pulled.
The Forge DV is both a "push" and "pull" style valve... it doesn't rely solely on vac to open it... as soon as the solenoid switches, there is a nearly instant pressure differential across the piston allowing it to open. The vac reference was only added to ensure the valve stays open for the entire duration of the ECU's signal.
Food for thought....


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*

Very interesting. It's this type of data that we need to determine if the delay is actually an issue or not.
Do you have logs/graphs/videos to show your findings or are we just to take your word that you "observed" this behavior?


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Very interesting. It's this type of data that we need to determine if the delay is actually an issue or not.
Do you have logs/graphs/videos to show your findings or are we just to take your word that you "observed" this behavior?

There's already 3 graphs, from 3 different cars with the OEM actuator posted that show this same "condition".


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Do you have logs/graphs/videos to show your findings or are we just to take your word that you "observed" this behavior?


The only way to clearly indicate it, without a $15,000 oscilloscope capable of safely trapping 200V+ transient spikes, would be video. And no, I didn't take any videos of the solenoids activating on the bench, there was absolutely no need. You can take my word for it, or you can read up on the basic principles of solenoids and inductors... its just part of the laws of physics.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (patty AT forge)*








I think I still have the old one. I'm sorry I didn't do any logs before pulling this off, but I am glad I did to find my error in installation. So would that account for the noise I was getting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYNP5pEudk 
The noise now is about half of this. Sorry the sound quality is bad. I don't use that phone anymore otherwise I'd post the new sound. damn iPhone...no video/sound recorder.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Three words...conflict of interest.
What would probably help solve this whole ordeal is an independent tester, a set of conditions and parameters agreed to provide the data required to draw conclusions, and a third party evaluation of the data.


----------



## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

Folks, let's try and keep the issue of who is scratching who's back out of this as much as possible.
Crew219's relationship with APR has been explained by Keith and Digitalhippies relationship with Forge was explained by Angel from Forge.


_Modified by iThread at 2:11 PM 7-16-2007_


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_What would probably help solve this whole ordeal is an independent tester, a set of conditions and parameters agreed to provide the data required to draw conclusions, and a third party evaluation of the data.


Well as soon as crew posts up his "procedure" anyone can go try it... or find a friend with a vag-com and try it... this has already been stated.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Then Crew, it's on you...


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Then Crew, it's on you...

Yep, I've already sent it out to a few people via email. Surprised they didn't post it up earlier while I was out. DH doesn't seem to understand that his spikes are at max RPM, when the frequency of exhaust pulses are much greater than at around 3500-4500 where I would release. Also, at 6krpms+, the pressure on the outlet is only around 10psi versus 20psi at the boost peak, thereby presenting much less resistance to the turbine at max RPMs. Higher turbine speeds + more frequent exhaust pulses, + less backpressure on the outlet + flow impeding stock turbo muffler, I can certainly see why there would be a small spike in PSI when lifting off at max RPMs. Anyways, I have people over now, but here is what I sent.

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_Here is the test protocol I did for checking the release response. The blocks I logged were 003 and 115, specifically engine speed, throttle plate angle and boost actual vs specified. "Turbo" was used for all the logs. I used advanced measuring blocks and strictly selected the certain subchannels I wanted, thereby minimizing the amount of unnecessary values present.
I would start at anywhere around 2-2500rpms and go WOT until I held 20psi (which for me is around a fairly broad range of 2600-4300). Once holding 20psi at WOT, I released my foot off the throttle completely. You don't need to do it at 20psi, but I would certainly do it at a maximum peak hold PSI level that you can consistently maintain and then release.
It is very important that when you come off of WOT that you do not feather the gas pedal, otherwise you're keeping the throttle plate partly open. You can check to see if you're doing it the same by looking at your vag-com logs and seeing if your throttle plate goes from 99.6% to some lower value around half that or even lower. The logs where I went from 99.6% to around 90-70% throttle in the next time stamp, I discarded because it would indicate that I wasn't releasing completely or was tapering it too much. The throttle plate % I would see the value fall to was around 3-7%, depending on atmospheric conditions and whether the AC was on or not. Nevertheless, I only graphed up until it hit around 1070 mbar actual since from then on, the boost would taper inconsistently on all setups.
I did enough of these logs to develop a trend, and then filtered them by which RPMs I would release at. Since engine RPM affects the speed at which vacuum is created in the intake manifold, that is why I saw different actuation speeds of the forge valve, but the same actuation and release in the OEM. 

Dave


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_When I was doing my research months ago, I played with a number of OEM DVs on the bench. From the time a charge is applied to the time the plunger is pulled in is easily a few tenths of a second.

Wow. Not having ever tested or played with the stock solenoid, I can say that sounds excessive.

_Quote »_This is typical of all solenoids.

And I can safely say that this is indeed not the case. In fact, judging from the picture crew posted at the beginning of the thread, the solenoid that Forge sends with their bypass solution looks identical to the GM part I use in conjunction with my elec. boost controller on my turbo Miata. This solenoid reacts nearly instantaneously to being grounded. So there is but one example of a solenoid that doesn't take a couple of tenths to energize...and that is but one example








Edit: And I just noticed further down your response you mentioned how much quicker the Forge/GM(?) solenoid reacts, so I presume you didn't mean to say that all solenoids take a few tenths of a second to react.


_Modified by bripab007 at 8:37 PM 7-16-2007_


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_Edit: And I just noticed further down your response you mentioned how much quicker the Forge/GM(?) solenoid reacts, so I presume you didn't mean to say that all solenoids take a few tenths of a second to react.

No, I meant that all solenoids have a delay... and as I stated, that delay is related to the size of the coil (number of windings).
I have that exact GM solenoid sitting here on my desk... and it, as the Forge solenoid, has a delay. You say nearly instantaneously... which is the same as saying a small delay (one that with your human eye you cannot measure)... but a delay all the same.
Given that the OEM DV has a much higher N factor (N being the number of windings) it makes perfect sense that the OEM DV will take longer to charge.
Next time read the whole post before you jump to conclusions, huh?


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## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*

WOW







This Forge thing is getting to be a pretty touchy subject, isnt it?


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

DH, you said the OEM bypass solenoid has a delay of "...easily a few tenths of a second. This is typical of all solenoids."
That's simply not true, and you just agreed it wasn't the case with the GM solenoid.
Forgive me for deciphering your original post's mistake as just that: a mistake


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_DH, you said the OEM bypass solenoid has a delay of "...easily a few tenths of a second. This is typical of all solenoids."
That's simply not true, and you just agreed it wasn't the case with the GM solenoid.
Forgive me for deciphering your original post's mistake as just that: a mistake










I meant ALL SOLENOIDS HAVE A DELAY. Geez, beat dead horse already...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (M3toGLI)*

I don't know that I have much to add at this point. And it is late! I still need a few questions answered that I asked in my last post before I can do anything other than speculate. But at this point I think we've established that crew's car was more of a freak in that it apparantly didn't behave the same as the majority with the stock valve. ie: no fault with our valve and no deviation from our claims as to it's operation.
I've been contacted by the purchaser of crew's valve so we can be sure that all is well with him after install. 
Most if not all other data seems to support our claims.
Remarkable how unique the red plots are as compared to anything else posted though.... what caused that?
Maybe further testing of the OP's car might reveal something, possibly with another fsitv valve??


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review ([email protected])*

Who drives like THAT?Yeah,WOT boost until 4300 rpm's then let off the gas suddenly and shift into the next gear?








This thread is a waste of bandwith and proves absolutely NOTHING....
The redundant delay can come from the mechanical actuation of ANY vacuum operated DV/BOV.......first it is the ringing of the "EGT ALARM"
which was total nonsense and still so,and here we have the ".3 SECOND DELAY" alarm















As chicken little says,"The sky is falling,the sky is falling!"
Quickly now,all of the people whom believe any of this nonsense.....
ready.....now.........count to a ".3 of a second".....


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*

First, I'm gonna say that I don't have a Forge valve, but I did my best to study it when it first came out.....
The stock DV is opened only by the electromagnetic solenoid, boost within the system may help to push it, but the solenoid is what effectively opens it.
The solenoid in the Forge valve, from what I've seen acts as a vacuum relay, the vacuum is what actually opens the valve which is typical of any standard valve. Standard valves receive help from boost pressure on the other side of the piston (or diaphragm), to help them open
The Stock valve opens with only one slight mechanical movement brought on by electrical current, which is instant. The Forge setup adds a step being that it requires the same steps as the stock DV, plus the vacuum pull that a standard vacuum op valve does. The time of the action of the piston pulling back has to take slightly more time than just the stock DV alone. The amount of the delay is something I'm sure Forge had to engineer out with the size of the piston and balance that with it being large enough to vent enough boost quickly
IMO the slight variance between solenoid operating times is negligible. The extra required step in the Forge valve must cause a longer delay.
I don't really see how that can be argued, unless I'm totally misunderstanding the operation of this valve which I doubt. That said, I don't think the question of whether there is a delay with Forge's setup should even be a concern. The concern is whether or not the boost spike caused by the delay is harmful and how much so.
Like I said before, more *independant* logs would be the most help put this question to rest so we can focus on the second question.


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## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_The solenoid in the Forge valve, from what I've seen acts as a vacuum relay, the vacuum is what actually opens the valve

Not true, the valve is both "push" and "pull".... the pressure differential of the boost intially pushes the valve open... and the vac holds the valve for the entire duratrion requested by the ECU. This has already been stated by myself, and Mike (see golfmkv).


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_The Stock valve opens with only one slight mechanical movement brought on by electrical current, which is instant.

As I've already pointed out, the action of the OEM DV solenoid is *NOT* instant... its a matter of pure physics, and how inductive fields work. No solenoid on earth is "instant"...


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

Alright folks, I've just finished cleaning up a bunch of personal attacks. I"m not going to do it again. If the people who I've just removed their posts do not stop making personal attacks I will ban them from this forum.
This topic is about a DV solution for a *car*! But, you'd think people were debating religion with the level of passion folks are replying with.
Please everyone take a deep breath and remember what this is about.


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*

Thanks to whatever mod cleared out all that petty pissing contest


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## M3toGLI (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (Rub-ISH)*

OK, I'll say it again:
GREAT JOB WITH AN EXCELLENT WRITE UP DAVE!
It shows that you have spent a bunch of time with the research and testing.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_
Not true, the valve is both "push" and "pull".... the pressure differential of the boost intially pushes the valve open... and the vac holds the valve for the entire duratrion requested by the ECU. This has already been stated by myself, and Mike (see golfmkv).

As I've already pointed out, the action of the OEM DV solenoid is *NOT* instant... its a matter of pure physics, and how inductive fields work. No solenoid on earth is "instant"...
I meant electrical current is instant, not the solenoid, as opposed to vacuum........"instant" is relative.
Honestly I'm not all that concerned with the valves theory of operation. Whether or not there is a delay is the first question. A few logs from different people and different cars will solve this. Once that's straightened out, the amount of harm it will cause is what needs to be resolved.


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## SLYMK6 (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (blackvento36)*

I had the Forge DV put on my car on Saturday and have been driving it for 3 days now. It has been working excellent and I tend to drive hard often. Its apparent that a lot of issues I was having as far as rough idle, excessive air sounds, and the like have disappated greatly since the install Saturday. Regardless of crew's findings, I am confident in the product for its uses thus far in the amount of issues the Forge DV fixed. I haven't even tried fixing my PCV yet as I was told it was "in the process" of failing, not yet failed. This DV is a superior product compared to the stock in my case.
That said I appreciate crew's thorough and professional effort here. Its something you can't say "no" to and you got to keep aware of. Please listen to thread guys. Do not result to bickering its going to ruin this thread and I personally want to watch this thread like a hawk.


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## Daybis (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I meant electrical current is instant, not the solenoid, as opposed to vacuum........"instant" is relative.


Current is not instant inside of a solenoid or inductor. It takes time for the inductor to reach the maximum amount current.


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## gtidylank (Mar 14, 2007)

"s soon as I put on my neuspeed intake I imediately started to hear an echoing wacacacacaca along with the hissss. I think thats just the added noise from the intake. I didnt notice any change to the sound with the forge valve other than its a bit quiter. Thats usually the case though and always has been in terms of stock diaphram valves vs. forge piston dvs. So is the sound I'm hearing normal? I swear I've heard the" - Quote from 2.0Tgti
I just read this from another post and I have to agree, the neuspeed intake was my first mod and I have been getting the "shhwacacacaca" sound since 300 miles and with close to 30,000 miles now I don't even notice it anymore... and it's been the same with stock dv, forge spacer, forge dv and forge dv w/spacer. the only time it didn't do it was with a hks ssqv bov which I'm guessing was because it completely blocks off the recirculation to vent atmospheric.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_Who drives like THAT?Yeah,WOT boost until 4300 rpm's then let off the gas suddenly and shift into the next gear?









My guess is that lots of people are as a result of this thread


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## snowboardegn (May 4, 2003)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (Spongebobnopants)*

The question still remains, will this Forge valve harm your car?
I mean, I'd love an excuse to get a bigger turbo.










_Modified by snowboardegn at 1:25 PM 7/17/2007_


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## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (snowboardegn)*

Id get a bigger turbo


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## M3toGLI (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (snowboardegn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *snowboardegn* »_The question still remains, will this Forge valve harm your car?
I mean, I'd love an excuse to get a bigger turbo.










I don't know about that, but it will probably do as much harm as the ecode kit will.



_Modified by M3toGLI at 1:52 PM 7-17-2007_


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Unfortunately there is no definitive answer as of yet...stay tuned, I'm sure Forge is preparing a response.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Here is a run this morning. I still have the spacer and the OEM DV. The only thing different is I switched to Stock Mode, so my boost is lower. Same procedure.. Slam the gas and let off all the way. This graph shows the Throttle plate angle. There does not seem to be a way to log (003) and (115) in the same "TIME STAMP" using VAG-COM, so I had to interpolate the missing numbers using basic math, but this basically proves that the TP is pretty much closed on the back end of the spikes which is causing the surge.
Things to keep in mind:
• VC seems to only log about 6/sec. I'd like to see APR do this as they can collect data faster. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
• The Forge DV is not causing this as it is not installed.
• The Spacer may or may not be contributing to the problem, I will remove and retest.
• Surge will slow the turbo, but not sure if it is damaging to the turbo over time.
• I don't see the spike between shifts during a full WOT run with DSG. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
• I'd like to see BSH logs eliminating this, this may be showing an OEM VW design flaw or hurdle for tuners. (however you look at it.)


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

Massive surge will cause damage over time. What you guys are hearing and logging is not massive surge.


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_


wow that is a pretty decent case for surge being inevitable with this on housing dv configuration


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_Here is a run this morning. I still have the spacer and the OEM DV. The only thing different is I switched to Stock Mode, so my boost is lower. Same procedure.. Slam the gas and let off all the way. This graph shows the Throttle plate angle. There does not seem to be a way to log (003) and (115) in the same "TIME STAMP" using VAG-COM, so I had to interpolate the missing numbers using basic math, but this basically proves that the TP is pretty much closed on the back end of the spikes which is causing the surge.
Things to keep in mind:
• VC seems to only log about 6/sec. I'd like to see APR do this as they can collect data faster. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
• The Forge DV is not causing this as it is not installed.
• The Spacer may or may not be contributing to the problem, I will remove and retest.
• Surge will slow the turbo, but not sure if it is damaging to the turbo over time.
• I don't see the spike between shifts during a full WOT run with DSG. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
• I'd like to see BSH logs eliminating this, this may be showing an OEM VW design flaw or hurdle for tuners. (however you look at it.)

This graph clearly shows a spike but it seams more "tame", tho it's actually almost the same as Crews forge logs. That works out to about a 2psi spike, I think what makes it look like less of a negative effect is showing the throttle plate in the graph. 
I assumed in Crews logs the forge valve opens slightly after the throttle plate closed almost completely. This graph seems to show that the throttle plate is starting to close whn the spike starts but boost starts falling before the TP is actually closed. This could mean that either the OEM DV is too small to divert boost before the throttle starts to close, or it does indeed have a delay in opening. Either way, it's the same .3 second timeframe from when the throttle plate begins to close to when boost starts to fall again, but this wasn't seen in crews OEM logs
I don't think I've ever heard of any way to log the DV, when it's requested to open, but that would make it a little more clear on how long it's delay is when it's actually in the car if it were possible. If you do another Forge log, log the throttle plate in that one too.


_Modified by blackvento36 at 3:36 AM 7-18-2007_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_This graph clearly shows a spike but it seams more "tame", tho it's actually almost the same as Crews forge logs. That works out to about a 2psi spike, I think what makes it look like less of a negative effect is showing the throttle plate in the graph. 
I assumed in Crews logs the forge valve opens slightly after the throttle plate closed almost completely. This graph seems to show that the throttle plate is starting to close whn the spike starts but boost starts falling before the TP is actually closed. This could mean that either the OEM DV is too small to divert boost before the throttle starts to close, or it does indeed have a delay in opening. Either way, it's the same .3 second timeframe from when the throttle plate begins to close to when boost starts to fall again, but this wasn't seen in crews OEM logs
I don't think I've ever heard of any way to log the DV, when it's requested to open, but that would make it a little more clear on how long it's delay is when it's actually in the car if it were possible. If you do another Forge log, log the throttle plate in that one too.

_Modified by blackvento36 at 3:36 AM 7-18-2007_

Keep in mind he does have the Forge BOV spacer. Received logs from an APR S1 person with EVOms intake yesterday . . . confirms the no-lag, no-spike OEM dv. Said person should have their forge on later in the week and will hopefully continue performing the same logs.
Dave


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_The only thing different is I switched to Stock Mode, so my boost is lower.

If you are in stock mode, why are you still showing so much boost?


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
If you are in stock mode, why are you still showing so much boost?

He probably didn't read and then subtract atmospheric pressure.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*

Quick update. Picked up the screws for the OEM DV yesterday... They were the wrong ones







I will try to get them before the end of the week. 
I did however dig up some old logs a ran when I was practicing 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs launches etc.. I sifted through all that crap last night and could not find 1 spike at WOT drop-off. all I ever looked at them before was to see MAX boost.
What has changed between then and now?
• Went from Carbonio intake to Evoms IE: Filter on a stick type
• Went from OEM DV to OEM DV + Spacer
One key piece of information that seems consistent in my new logs is that the intake air mass is high during that spike. While the throttle is closing. It is almost like there is a residual sucking... whereas my old logs did not show this and I found no spikes.
I don't want to start down the wrong path, but with the stock intake/Carbonio your filter will slow airflow before the MAF. It is in real close proximity. On the Evoms you have that whole tube filled with nothing slowing it down. nobody has claimed to here the surge with a stock intake and forge or OEM DV either because it is muffled or it is not there. I can say according to my old logs and the stock DV it was not there.
So until I pull the spacer, does anyone have a WOT and drop log with Evoms and no spacer that I can sift through? I am going through process of elimination. PM me.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
He probably didn't read and then subtract atmospheric pressure. 

Sorry guys, you right I didn't convert as that wasn't the point I was trying to show here.
I did however drive about 10-25 miles to let the car adapt to stock mode.


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Sorry guys, you right I didn't convert as that wasn't the point I was trying to show here.
I did however drive about 10-25 miles to let the car adapt to stock mode.

NP! I was just pointing it out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
If you log the value with ignition on, but not running, that's the atmospheric value you subtract from the logged value.
Then take mb * .0145 = boosty in psi.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (syntrix)*

I'm gonna try to do some logs on the stock valve today, I'm not sure what good the will do tho. I have the original DV in my car and I'm not sure what shape it's in after 12k chipped miles. I gotta lot of work to do on this MKII I just picked up, so I'm not sure if I'll get to it.
When you guys do these logs at WOT, are you just dropping the throttle and going directly into engine braking, ore are you pressing the clutch and getting it out of gear at the same time. Not sure if it would make a difference


----------



## M3toGLI (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
When you guys do these logs at WOT, are you just dropping the throttle and going directly into engine braking, ore are you pressing the clutch and getting it out of gear at the same time. Not sure if it would make a difference

This is actually a good question because I think it would make a difference.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I'm gonna try to do some logs on the stock valve today, I'm not sure what good the will do tho. I have the original DV in my car and I'm not sure what shape it's in after 12k chipped miles. I gotta lot of work to do on this MKII I just picked up, so I'm not sure if I'll get to it.
When you guys do these logs at WOT, are you just dropping the throttle and going directly into engine braking, ore are you pressing the clutch and getting it out of gear at the same time. Not sure if it would make a difference

Letting off the thottle completely, still keeping the clutch engaged and going into engine braking.
Dave


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
So until I pull the spacer, does anyone have a WOT and drop log with Evoms and no spacer that I can sift through? I am going through process of elimination. PM me.

Another member sent me logs without any spikes. He also has Evoms. My new DV screws showed up wrong again. (Correct part number, wrong part)...
last night I pulled the swapped the Evoms back for the Carbonio... Also fixed my OEM cover while I was at it. Ran some more logs.
WOT and DROP still Spikes. The thing is you can't really hear it now. It is muffled. The Evoms is like a stethoscope for your turbo. The only thing left is the Forge Spacer.


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_Another member sent me logs without any spikes..

which member? post them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (volcomska)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volcomska* »_
which member? post them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Magilson
I'll let him post them. I didn't make graphs. We both have the Evoms and I wanted to rule that out. I just looked at the data and there were no spikes. It looked like there were 4 to 5 try's though. I did 6-7 try's and mine spiked in every one. Some greater than others. My spacer needs to come off and I need to re-log to get a conclusion for at least my peace of mind.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm sure I speak for all Forge DV owners in saying thank you for doing the leg work on this!


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

I finally got the correct DV screws. VW has a parts issue with them and has sent the wrong one 3 times. A quick stop to Ace Hardware did the trick. I grabbed a tone of them (just in-case).
Anyhow, I got the OEM DV back in without the spacer last night. Still have the Carbonio and NP delete. I drove it pretty hard and logged a bunch of WOT and Drops. I could not get it to spike. Later today I will try to get the Evoms back in and get some audio. The Waaacaccacca should be gone according to the logs. I will also do more logs to reinforce this.


So for now... This will stay out.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

This is what has pretty much been established so far.
OEM = no spike
OEM + Spacer = Minor Spike
DV = Higher Spike
DV + Spacer = Highest spike
The question is not that WILL the forge dv and or spacer cause a spike...the question is that IF it is harmful in the short / long term or not.
.3 of a second is not that long of a time...but is it long enough to have ill effects?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

It seems, at least from those I've talked to, that Both of Forge's DV related products cause these spikes as they _are not_ present in the OEM DV setup. I'm putting my Forge DV today to do some more testing.
It will probably be on there a while because I'll also be testing on-off-on boost response as this is the whole purpose of the OEM DV's location so it will be interesting to see how the Forge valve stacks up against OEM. I'll also try and test response during ESP. The ESP tests will probably only be for my own personal knowledge because it's not going to be easily repeatable by others for verification. Just too many variables.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Sounds good boss. Any data you can present I'm sure will be helpful in coming to a conclusion on this. Thanks for testing!


----------



## KingofCancer (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Mike? Forge? Response?


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (KingofCancer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingofCancer* »_Mike? Forge? Response?

Waterfest.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_It seems, at least from those I've talked to, that Both of Forge's DV related products cause these spikes as they _are not_ present in the OEM DV setup. I'm putting my Forge DV today to do some more testing.
It will probably be on there a while because I'll also be testing on-off-on boost response as this is the whole purpose of the OEM DV's location so it will be interesting to see how the Forge valve stacks up against OEM. I'll also try and test response during ESP. The ESP tests will probably only be for my own personal knowledge because it's not going to be easily repeatable by others for verification. Just too many variables.

Yeah, too bad I didn't do logs like I had planned to with the Forge spacer. Only had that thing on for a day but noticed a drop in driveability and the noise was too damn annoying to keep on the car for more than a few hours. 
RE: ESP testing. I also didn't bother posting up any of the ESP testing I did, simply because it wasn't repeatable. What I did see though is that under mild ESP interventation (most likely EDL) from mild slipping, the boost stayed constant and the throttle plate in the same position, thereby not allowing the RPMs to climb until traction/ load was regained. Under harder ESP intervention, there would be a noticable throttle cut with subsequent boost release. I would imagine that this stronger intervention is much like the max psi, throttle release logs, given the sharp throttle cut by ESP. The forge valve did indicate some latency in releasing boost as well as a sharp spike in PSI caused by the latency, but the effect was too difficult to repeat using the stock DV to give a valid comparison. OTOH, the stock DV exhibited no spikes nor latency in opening. 
Ultimately it brings up another issue. As certain individuals have cited the E-code solution to be unsafe during ESP intervention, I'd venture to say that those claims are false or that the Forge solution is equally as unsafe during ESP intervention. From what i've seen, there is no boost release without some form of throttle cut. Since both mechanical setups require some form of throttle plate closure in order for the valves to open and release boost, both setups have a slight latency over that of stock (no latency). 
Dave


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (magilson)*

I'm getting spikes too. 
When I did a live graph on the vag com I would see spikes when I let off the throttle. 
Here is a run I did in 3rd gear I believe. 
Its in mBar. I tried to convert it to psi but I don't know how to log and subtract the atmospheric pressure. 

Around 80F outside. did a few pulls, this was the last. DSG 07, 
APR 93, DH PCV Fix, Forge DV, Forge Spacer 50/50, Forge Twintercooler FMIC.










_Modified by Arin at 1:10 PM 7-22-2007_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (crew219)*

I picked up a NSP boost gauge and the Forge valve at Waterfest. After installing the gauge, I tried to run my Vag com but for some reason it wouldn't connect with the car. I wound up just sticking the Forge valve in anyway. 
The funny thing is that when I pulled the stock B valve, it was still in perfect shape after 20k miles and ~12k chipped. It made the honking noise when releasing after heavy acceleration, but would still hold over 20psi.
The forge valve seems to make less noise, and not honk. It seems slightly better in some way which I can't explain yet. One thing I did notice is that the valve is much smaller than it looked in pics. I did also hear and see the spike on the gauge. I'm almost positive that it's because of the small size of the pistons bore area, probably not because of lag. The operating area of the stock valve seems larger in the turbos housing.
I'm sticking with the Forge valve, unless this proves more serious than it seems. The situation under which the spike occurs is somewhat rare, unless your trying.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I spoke to Mike at waterfest about this issue. They are fully aware of what's going on and will be looking into it once they get back to Orlando.
Thanks to Mike and digitalhippie at the Forge tent for taking the time to discuss!
Very nice meeting you both


----------



## scans007 (Jun 6, 2007)

This has been a "educational" read....LOL
I have a forge DV sitting in the garage. I got it for durability over stock once I am chipped next month. Maybe I'll just ride out the stocker till it goes


----------



## chewbacca5017 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Re:*

Wow... just fell upon this thread today. Great info..
SUBSCRIBING...


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

Arin, your 1.5 PSI spike is likely exacerbated by the additional charge air afforded you by your "twintercooler" setup.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_Arin, your 1.5 PSI spike is likely exacerbated by the additional charge air afforded you by your "twintercooler" setup.

Could you explain this. It is my understanding that since he has more piping with an additional inter-cooler, wouldn't the PSI go the other way?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Could you explain this. It is my understanding that since he has more piping with an additional inter-cooler, wouldn't the PSI go the other way?

You'd think that, but upon further thought... His intercooler setup is larger in volume _but_ his ECU is still requesting that it be filled to the same requested boost level. So you have more air at the same pressure, so more boost air to dissipate after the throttle is shut.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (magilson)*

So why would that cause the boost pressure to increase after letting off the throttle?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_So why would that cause the boost pressure to increase after letting off the throttle?

As crew explained in the OP, the spike in boost is caused when the throttle plate shuts and the Forge DV cannot actuate quickly enough. This "traps" the boost between the closed throttle plate and the still spinning Turbo. With no where for the air to go, it's volume increases and in a "fixed" container that means it will build pressure. It has nothing (in any real sense) to do with your intercooler setup. It has everything to do with the Forge DV's reliance on vacuum to actuate the valve. If vacuum is not instantly and readily available the valve cannot overcome the internal spring force (basically) and so it stays shut. The OEM DV relied only on an electrical signal, which despite the discussed latency, is still faster than Forge's current design will see enough vacuum to open and recirculate that trapped boost air.


----------



## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_So why would that cause the boost pressure to increase after letting off the throttle?

Magilson was kind; I would've told you to go back and read page 1 of the thread. Better yet...read this: http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-...r=8-1


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_
Magilson was kind; I would've told you to go back and read page 1 of the thread. Better yet...read this: http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-...r=8-1

Well the way he worded the responce above it made me think it was something else. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Arin at 10:16 PM 7-23-2007_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_Better yet...read this: http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-...r=8-1

Excellent book. Although I am borrowing it, I have it sitting on my bedside table.


----------



## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*

Doesn't compressor surge happen only when on the throttle. That other flutter sound, for me at least, with just a P flo, happens when I'm WOT then release the throttle then quickly give it partial throttle again. My friends and I thought it was compressor surge, but then after awhile, we realized that it was the recirculation or something. At least that's what we thought. Who really knows though. All I do know is that when my friend had his stock airbox on, you could duplicate the flutter sound albeit a lot quieter. Would VW really be dumb enough to integrate compressor surge from the factory? Unless the sound you guys are talking about is something different, I doubt it's compressor surge.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (g60_corrado_91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60_corrado_91* »_Doesn't compressor surge happen only when on the throttle.

no


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## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

No, it's definitely compressor surge, even from the factory, but, as I've said before, a small amount of surge is almost unavoidable and also harmless.


----------



## chiuy (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_No, it's definitely compressor surge, even from the factory, but, as I've said before, a small amount of surge is almost unavoidable and also harmless.

So what's "small amount"?


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## x9t (Sep 19, 2005)

Yeah how does one determin whats small and how much does it take to cause damage to the turbo and is the Forge DV fluttering enough?
JT


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_No, it's definitely compressor surge, even from the factory, but, as I've said before, a small amount of surge is almost unavoidable and also harmless.

My car does not exhibit any sign of spiking or "surge" with the OEM DV setup. How did you determine that it is normal to see this happen from the factory?


----------



## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: (chiuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chiuy* »_
So what's "small amount"? 

Small enough that it's difficult to hear, if at all, through the factory intake tract.


----------



## bripab007 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
My car does not exhibit any sign of spiking or "surge" with the OEM DV setup. How did you determine that it is normal to see this happen from the factory?

I guarantee there is a situation/condition in which you could get your car to exhibit compressor surge from the factory, if not measurable by VAG-COM, then through other, more precise means.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_
I guarantee there is a situation/condition in which you could get your car to exhibit compressor surge from the factory, if not measurable by VAG-COM, then through other, more precise means.
Well, post up some logs then. Ya can't guarantee anything unless we can see it. Though I'm not doubting you
I got the Vag-com working again. I belive I am showing a spike with the Forge valve. I'll post up charts soon as I figure out how to work the spreadsheet again.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (bripab007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bripab007* »_
I guarantee there is a situation/condition in which you could get your car to exhibit compressor surge from the factory, if not measurable by VAG-COM, then through other, more precise means.

What situation would that be? Vag-Com is pretty quick now with the turbo function so I'd at leat like to try.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (magilson)*









I need to find a better road to do my logs, but take it for what it's worth
Does turbo even work with Micro-Can? I remember reading something about Hex-Can is faster.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_








I need to find a better road to do my logs, but take it for what it's worth
Does turbo even work with Micro-Can? I remember reading something about Hex-Can is faster.

Turbo does not work with micro-can. Looks like ~2.5psi spike.
Dave


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Turbo does not work with micro-can. Looks like ~2.5psi spike.
Dave

Works on mine.
Here is a time stamp with Turbo Enabled.
TIME
STAMP
0.01
0.27
0.59
0.84
1.13
1.41
1.71
1.97
2.27
2.52
2.84
3.09
3.39
Non Turbo
TIME
STAMP
0.14
0.88
1.55
2.25
2.95
3.67
4.4
5.13
5.79
6.5
7.21
7.9
8.57

_Modified by Arin at 9:47 PM 7-24-2007_


_Modified by Arin at 9:48 PM 7-24-2007_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Works on mine.
I think he's right, you can click the button, but it doesn't seem to speed anything up. Timestamps are irrelivent cuz it depends on how many blocks you are logging at once and whether you are using advanced or normal measuring blocks. Watch the sample rate when you click the button.


_Modified by blackvento36 at 9:51 PM 7-24-2007_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I think he's right, you can click the button, but it doesn't seem to speed anything up


I'll try it a few more times but above is 13 time stamps. The one I presume is turbo and other is not because one makes it only to 3.xx seconds and the other makes it to 8.xx seconds.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*

Hmm looks like you are right:

_Quote »_In Engine controllers using KWP-2000, there is a [Turbo] button in Measuring Blocks screen. Pressing this button can significantly speed up sampling, for example over 30 samples per second when logging a single group in our Touareg. Once you have pressed [Turbo] you will remain in this High-Speed mode until you exit the Measuring Blocks screen. This function is only available when using a HEX Interface.

How come one sampled at almost 4 samples a second and the other was much slower?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*

Oh disregard the Throttle angle on my graph, I got the timestamps mixed up. The boost lines are accurate tho

_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Hmm looks like you are right:
How come one sampled at almost 4 samples a second and the other was much slower?
Were you logging the same amount of blocks? regular measuring blocks contain a few value blocks. If you go to advanced mes. blocks you can use the specific ones you need. The more blocks you log, each one gets a timestamp per the sample rate. Fewer blocks = a higher sample rate for each block.


_Modified by blackvento36 at 12:11 AM 7-25-2007_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

I wasn't sure if it worked like that or not but that must be the case. I was just picking 12 just to cover everything that I may want to try to learn from.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Oh disregard the Throttle angle on my graph, I got the timestamps mixed up. The boost lines are accurate tho
Were you logging the same amount of blocks? regular measuring blocks contain a few value blocks. If you go to advanced mes. blocks you can use the specific ones you need. The more blocks you log, each one gets a time-stamp per the sample rate. Fewer blocks = a higher sample rate for each block.

_Modified by blackvento36 at 9:59 PM 7-24-2007_

Yeah you have to a ton of cut and paste and use math to get the TP correct on the graph. If you just log one thing you can get like 10 FS:. The more you add the slower it gets. I could not find any group that has Boost A/S and TP in the same time stamp group.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Yeah you have to a ton of cut and paste and use math to get the TP correct on the graph. If you just log one thing you can get like 10 FS:. The more you add the slower it gets. I could not find any group that has Boost A/S and TP in the same time stamp group.
have you tried using the adv. meas. blocks yet?


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Yeah you have to a ton of cut and paste and use math to get the TP correct on the graph. If you just log one thing you can get like 10 FS:. The more you add the slower it gets. I could not find any group that has Boost A/S and TP in the same time stamp group.

The timestamps between my TP and boost graphs only deviated by .05s, so I merely used the TP time stamp for all of my logs. 5 hundreths of a second is nothing to worry about.
Dave


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
The timestamps between my TP and boost graphs only deviated by .05s, so I merely used the TP time stamp for all of my logs. 5 hundreths of a second is nothing to worry about.
Dave

I have micro-can and the best I can get is 1/10's in advanced with 1-2 things selected.
"0.5" is very fast and not worth trying to correct. Maybe I need to trade it in for the Full version.
Edit: Yep... I meant .05


_Modified by Spongebobnopants at 9:14 AM 7-25-2007_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
I have micro-can and the best I can get is 1/10's in advanced with 1-2 things selected.
"0.5" is very fast and not worth trying to correct. Maybe I need to trade it in for the Full version.

Ah gotcha . . . yeah I purchased a Micro-CAN with the intention of selling my Hex-USB+CAN, until I realized no turbo. 
I think you meant "0.05"







.5s is quite significant.
Ended up selling the micro-can.
Dave


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: (crew219)*

It's as DH points out.... just taking time to deal with this. We are very busy with a multitude of things. 
We feel that the spikes have been shown to exist across various different configurations under various circumstances.
Some testers were not able to replicate the spike without resorting to very specific testing conditions. 
So are we only concerned with the spikes that occur while letting off the throttle completely around 4000 rpms, still keeping the clutch engaged and going into engine braking? 
There is no danger that this small blip of pressure up near the map sensor is going to reverse the direction of the compressor wheel, not even make it consider reversing. It would have to maintain that speed and pressure throughout the entire run of piping back to the comp housing and then get past the fact that there is a vent placed right there trying to confound it's best efforts to get back and affect the wheel that's spinning at over 100k and ready to start pushing 20 lbs again...... you get the idea
Why does the spike occur? The TB, placed close by, just shut, this can cause a very brief and localized spike in pressure owing in large part due to the map sensor's placement. Very near the throttle body. Does this mean that any of this pressure will reach the turbo? Not very likely.
Have we tested the hell out of this? Yes.
Have there been tons of these sold, many to shops with dynos and vagcom setups? Yes.
As I am representing Forge, I would like to ask the community at large exactly what they are concerned with and what they want to see to ease their fears? No sense addressing anything if it isn’t to your satisfaction or even the issue at hand.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_It's as DH points out.... just taking time to deal with this. We are very busy with a multitude of things. 
We feel that the spikes have been shown to exist across various different configurations under various circumstances.
Some testers were not able to replicate the spike without resorting to very specific testing conditions. 
So are we only concerned with the spikes that occur while letting off the throttle completely around 4000 rpms, still keeping the clutch engaged and going into engine braking? 
There is no danger that this small blip of pressure up near the map sensor is going to reverse the direction of the compressor wheel, not even make it consider reversing. It would have to maintain that speed and pressure throughout the entire run of piping back to the comp housing and then get past the fact that there is a vent placed right there trying to confound it's best efforts to get back and affect the wheel that's spinning at over 100k and ready to start pushing 20 lbs again...... you get the idea
Why does the spike occur? The TB, placed close by, just shut, this can cause a very brief and localized spike in pressure owing in large part due to the map sensor's placement. Very near the throttle body. Does this mean that any of this pressure will reach the turbo? Not very likely.
Have we tested the hell out of this? Yes.
Have there been tons of these sold, many to shops with dynos and vagcom setups? Yes.
As I am representing Forge, I would like to ask the community at large exactly what they are concerned with and what they want to see to ease their fears? No sense addressing anything if it isn’t to your satisfaction or even the issue at hand.

Actually the issue is the latency of the valve which is the cause of the spike. MAP sensor location is not the cause considering the spike is not present with the OEM valve at all. Whether or not the spike is significant is up to the user to decide, but a 3-5 psi spike with 20psi in the pressure tract is much harder on the turbine than a 3-5psi spike at redline where it is only 10psi. 
Angel, I called and left a message for you to call me back today. Still haven't heard from you either via email or phone. I apologise for not getting back to you via PM as I had my popup blocker up and simply wasn't receiving it.
Dave


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

Please explain to us why what you just wrote is true.
You contend that it doesn't exist at all oem and then mention the fact that it is less signifigant at redline with only 10psi in the charge pipes. Why is the oem allowing the spike at redline and as you maintain, nowhere else?
You realize that the comp wheel is still working very hard at redline.... volumetric efficiency of your typical twin cam 4 at those rpms dictates it.

So as far as you are concerned it's only the mid range area that's of concern, correct?


----------



## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: (crew219)*

Dave, the compressor wheel is spinning much faster at redline than it is at 4000rpm.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_Dave, the compressor wheel is spinning much faster at redline than it is at 4000rpm.

So what you're saying is that it's even worse than we thought. Thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Please explain to us why what you just wrote is true.
You contend that it doesn't exist at all oem and then mention the fact that it is less signifigant at redline with only 10psi in the charge pipes. Why is the oem allowing the spike at redline and as you maintain, nowhere else?
You realize that the comp wheel is still working very hard at redline.... volumetric efficiency of your typical twin cam 4 at those rpms dictates it.

So as far as you are concerned it's only the mid range area that's of concern, correct? 


The boost spikes _are not_ (I repeat not) present with the OEM setup. DigitalHippie neglected to mention the logs he showed were from a car which also had a Forge spacer installed. Another user has posted that he had spikes with only the spacer installed. As soon as the spacer was removed the spikes were no longer present.
To reiterate what people have found so far. Forge's DV related products _induce_ a boost spike of varying level. The spikes are not present in the OEM DV system. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Class action lawsuit against VofA then http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Careful, he was talking about 100% OEM spikes near redline. http://****************.com/smile/star.gif

boost spiking is not present on the 100% OEM setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_Dave, the compressor wheel is spinning much faster at redline than it is at 4000rpm.

Yep, due to the increased frequency of exhaust pulses as well as the rise of the exhaust gas temperatures.
Dave


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## Hkysk8r07 (Jul 9, 2005)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
The boost spikes _are not_ (I repeat not) present with the OEM setup. DigitalHippie neglected to mention the logs he showed were from a car which also had a Forge spacer installed. Another user has posted that he had spikes with only the spacer installed. As soon as the spacer was removed the spikes were no longer present.
To reiterate what people have found so far. Forge's DV related products _induce_ a boost spike of varying level. The spikes are not present in the OEM DV system. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

ACTUALLY the logs he posted were from MY car.
MY CAR NEVER HAD A FORGE SPACE INSTALLED nor will it EVER have one.
the only mods done to the car at the time we tested it was eurosport intake and GHL quad TBE. 


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie;437530* »_I was not the only person to receive a test valve, and I was not the only person running logs.
Even with the valves I had, I tested them on 3 different cars... not just my own, each with slightly different mods (including a car that was stock except for eurosport intake). All my logs were done on the same stretch of road, and the before&after was done on the same day as close together as possible to make conditions as similar as possible (only takes me about 20-30mins to swap out a DV). For each car, the before&after logs were very similar. On all three cars, I saw similar spike with OEM valve and Forge valve. In the majority of cases, the Forge logs showed slightly steeper slope coming into boost, and slightly higher actual boost levels (not talking major increases, fractions of a psi up to one psi at best). But in general, the Forge logs showed very little variance from the OEM logs. All three cars are 6MT, and we never noticed any lag between shifts.
Some people on the vortex keep ignorning what Mike and I have said about the function of the valve. It does not rely solely on vac to open. The internal pressure reference design is similar to the OEM valve... by using the boost pressure to help hold the valve shut, they can get away with a lighter spring inside the valve. This allows the valve to act as "push" and "pull". The valve will open from pressure differential across the piston too, the vac line was added to ensure the valve stayed open for the entire duration of the ECUs request... we actually called it the "vac assist" line since its not the primary trigger for opening the valve. If you've ever seen one of their 007 valves for the 1.8T, you'd know the difference... the 007 springs are SIGNIFICANTLY larger and made of a thicker gauge wire... those 007 valves are relying on the spring force alone to hold boost. The FSI DV is using spring force combined with internal pressure reference to hold boost.
I think there are more variables to consider as to why one car is seeing a spike, and others are not. I don't know how many of you remember a year ago when the EVOMS intake was finally released... about 30% of the people who bought it complained about the fluttering noise... and that was with the OEM DV. So why did they hear the noise, and others did not? Why do some cars see a spike with OEM DV, and others do not?

so you can stop making up lies now.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Please explain to us why what you just wrote is true.
You contend that it doesn't exist at all oem and then mention the fact that it is less signifigant at redline with only 10psi in the charge pipes. Why is the oem allowing the spike at redline and as you maintain, nowhere else?
You realize that the comp wheel is still working very hard at redline.... volumetric efficiency of your typical twin cam 4 at those rpms dictates it.

So as far as you are concerned it's only the mid range area that's of concern, correct? 

Angel, there is no OEM spike. Taken from DH's picserver before he baleeted all the pics. Ironically, it is the only actual LABELED graph that he had on there. 








As stated before, I chose 20psi because that was a consistent # I could hold and test at. It is completely pointless to try to run a comparative test if you cannot have consistent starting values.
Anyways, you have my email and phone #. Hope to hear from you soon.
Dave


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (magilson)*

As far as the spikes are concerned I didn't see the either with the stock setup, but I didn't have the means to log them before I installed the Forge, my cable wouldn't communicate. 
As said by Forge, the compressor wheel isn't moving at the same speed as it is at redline. Toward redline, the engine is also moving faster and "ingesting" the air that is forced through by the turbo. This is the reason you can't create the same boost level and also the reason the spike issue can't be present. After all this debate, I really don't think there's much to worry about at this point.
Now question for Forge.....
As I've said before, that valves piston area looks small. I figure this is to improve the valves reaction time. I think the spike is caused by the small valve not being able to release boost before the TP starts to close rather than the valve being delayed. Am I correct? In this case it would pose more of a problem with a big turbo, as a big turbo would be able to put enough air out to sustain the type of boost that causes the spike at a higher RPM.


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## Hkysk8r07 (Jul 9, 2005)

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Angel, there is no OEM spike. Taken from DH's picserver before he baleeted all the pics. Ironically, it is the only actual LABELED graph that he had on there. 








As stated before, I chose 20psi because that was a consistent # I could hold and test at. It is completely pointless to try to run a comparative test if you cannot have consistent starting values.
Anyways, you have my email and phone #. Hope to hear from you soon.
Dave


that label'd graph is of five0vw's car he also has seen the spike as well you managed to find one graph that didn't contain the spike. it also says REVO STAGE 1. with aftermarket ECU programming a car is not 100% OEM.
you cannot look for an OEM spike if you're testing at 20psi. the stock car isnt ment to see 20psi


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*

This is what I think was happening while the spacer was on my car.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

Please, ANYONE, feel free to come to my house. You can sit in the passenger seat and we can log for days. You will never see a boost spike _at any point_ during the logging with the OEM DV setup. If any of you can give me a scenario under which I can induce this spike please describe it in detail so that I (and others) can perform this scenario and record it.
If my car is a "factory freak" and does not spike, it does not change my mind. I will not use (long term) a product that induces this spike. I could care less what anyone else does with their car.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_Please, ANYONE, feel free to come to my house. You can sit in the passenger seat and we can log for days. You will never see a boost spike _at any point_ during the logging with the OEM DV setup. If any of you can give me a scenario under which I can induce this spike please describe it in detail so that I (and others) can perform this scenario and record it.
If my car is a "factory freak" and does not spike, it does not change my mind. I will not use (long term) a product that induces this spike. I could care less what anyone else does with their car.

+1
Also not sure why no one is addressing the latency in the valve. If someone's OEM spikes, then so be it (although I have not seen any evidence that would actually support that claim) . . . but the forge valve still actuates slower than OEM on release.
Dave


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
+1
Also not sure why no one is addressing the latency in the valve. If someone's OEM spikes, then so be it (although I have not seen any evidence that would actually support that claim) . . . but the forge valve still actuates slower than OEM on release.
Dave
Well I don't think it's latency at all.........Waiting for Forge on that one


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

There is that old song that goes."Nothing plus nothing means nothing,but you gotta have SOMETHNG,if you wanna play with me".....exactly what this thread is.....9 pages of NOTHING....guys TRYING to sound like engineers because they can use Vag-Com and Excel















"Latency" nice new word Dave


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## 94jetta~~ (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_There is that old song that goes."Nothing plus nothing means nothing,but you gotta have SOMETHNG,if you wanna play with me".....exactly what this thread is.....9 pages of NOTHING....guys TRYING to sound like engineers because they can use Vag-Com and Excel















"Latency" nice new word Dave
















I have to agree here. I am no turbo expert but I am an engineer and this whole thread proves nothing. Unless the tests are all carried out in the exact same enviroment, and I stress EXACT, none of this matters. I have no idea what kind of setup Forge has but I'd be willing to bet that they would be able to come closer to laboratory conditions than any of us could driving down some random street taking some logs. Plus you can take any amount of data you like, but how it's interpreted and presented by different people will always be different so again this all proves nothing. 
Please don't take this personally guys, it's always good to get info out in the open, the more the better. But to start calling out companies, getting personal, and arguing about every minute detail is ridiculous. This is a technical forum, lets try and keep it that way. 
It's pretty simple; if you don't want the operation of your car to change from stock then either don't modify it or engineer and manufacture your own pieces so everything works per your specifications. 
Sorry for the rant, but this doesn't just apply for this topic and Forge either, it goes for every new product that all these companies put out. I give all you guys(Forge, APR, REVO, etc.) credit for even coming on these boards and putting up with half of this crap. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by 94jetta~~ at 1:46 AM 7-26-2007_


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (94jetta~~)*

Ok, so if you create a post that shows an issue with a product you're either calling somebody out or trying to sound like an engineer? Do you really have to be an engineer to see a boost spike. Does it take an engineer to say "hey, this didn't happen before I did this, but now it does"? Are you guys serious? There is a boost spike with the forge valve, go get your cable out and you will see it. The problem is that somebody pointed out an issue, and some people misunderstood that for something malicious. 
Where was Forge called out? Did anyone accuse Forge of anything? Nobody ever even drew the conclusion that this was actually harmful. This post merely prompted a few questions for Forge, you draw your own conclusions. It's the guys that got all defensive over nothing that makes it look worse than it is.
Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that under these conditions there will be a boost spike from the Forge valve that wasn't there with the stock DV. I am also fairly positive that it's nothing to worry about, right now. I had my own questions for Forge that I posted above and I'll wait for them to answer.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_There is that old song that goes."Nothing plus nothing means nothing,but you gotta have SOMETHNG,if you wanna play with me".....exactly what this thread is.....9 pages of NOTHING....guys TRYING to sound like engineers because they can use Vag-Com and Excel















"Latency" nice new word Dave
















Still on page 7, try to not to read to far ahead. BTW... I used Photoshop also, so does that mean I am Graphics Designer? My young daughter uses Excel. She's not quite ready for Vag-Com yet though.








I have proven the surge... and you quickly dismiss it as no problem when after many attempts from multiple people that cannot reproduce the surge with the OEM setup. Please bless us with your wisdom and point us in the right direction to confirm what you say? The song just doesn't cut it. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I don't intend to be malicious in any way...I just want answers thats all. From what I have seen and read the spike is there with forge not oem, my question is if it will be harmful...that's all. That's all I care about at this point. If its not harmful in any way great, we can all move on with our lives...if it is would be another story but as a car owner having spent 20k plus on a vehicle wouldn't you like to know if the aftermarket part you've chosen to keep your vehicle reliable is safe?


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

I posted this earlier in this thread,what I am TRYING to say is a "2.5psi"-"4psi" spike is redundant......come on now......do you REALLY think the 2.0TFSI K03 turbo is any DIFFERENT than any other turbo manufactured?There have been turbo cars built by MANY other manufacturers over the years,and they ALL used mechanical diverter valve setup,and they all have a mechanical "latency" period when opening up,and the turbos would still last 100K miles or more!!
I work on VAG cars 5 days a week,and even with 23psi+spiking K03's,I rarely see a OEM turbo failure,and when I do 99% of the time it is due to sludge/owner neglect....
So if you REALLY want your turbos to last,make a thread about good oil change habits because a small spike after you let off the gas is NOT going to harm your pea shooter OEM turbo,no matter how you interpret thos colorful little graphs.....yes maybe the OEM one is faster due to the fact it is a electrical solenoid with virtually no weight/mass so the valve "opens" faster,but the FORGE is a mechanical valve JUST LIKE the ones that came out on every car before the 2.0T......and they did and still work just fine.
Some of you guys should focus on ENJOYING your cars instead of TRYING to find issues that don't exist to create artificial drama.....I guess I am oldschool and come from a time when cars were cars and men were men,and enjoyed their cars,and didn't drive around with a laptop everywhere thinking they are piloting the space shuttel and relaying to mission control what a dire circumstance they have come accross which may jeopardise their mission















Please remember this FACT......you bought a VAG car,you can have the Pope and mother Theresa and the DaliLama bless it,and keep ot STOCK and it will STILL have problems!!








And I remember installing 2 FORGE MECHANICAL 007's on a $80,000.00 RS6 and guess what?The owner was happy and enjoyed his car,he wasn't "scared" of hurting TWO TURBOS on his twin turbo V8,you know why?Because he had COMMON SENSE.










_Modified by VWAUDITEK at 1:58 PM 7-26-2007_


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_ 
Please remember this FACT......you bought a VAG car,you can have the Pope and mother Theresa and the DaliLama bless it,and keep ot STOCK and it will STILL have problems!!








And I remember installing 2 FORGE MECHANICAL 007's on a $80,000.00 RS6 and guess what?The owner was happy and enjoyed his car,he wasn't "scared" of hurting TWO TURBOS on his twin turbo V8,you know why?Because he had COMMON SENSE.








_Modified by VWAUDITEK at 1:58 PM 7-26-2007_

Sounds like he had money to burn or a huge car payment... Not common sense.
Anyhow, would you be willing to go as far as saying that Forge DV and or Forge spacer causing slight surge would be like smoking? It has been proven to cause cancer(surge) and could cut a few years off your life(turbo)? or would you say with 100% certainty that the turbo will not suffer ANY wear additional long term wear over the non surging OEM setup? All else being equal, blessed etc....
I am also assuming you have seen/installed/used this valve and or spacer, heard the surge first hand, etc... Correct? Thanks!


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
heard the surge first hand, etc... Correct? Thanks!

I'm still curious what those folks who have had problems/recorded a spike think they are hearing. .3 seconds is not long enough for the human ear to determine a pattern to a particular sound. If anything, all you would hear is a single sharp burst. Is that what everyone is experiencing?
By comparison .3 seconds is about the time it takes the DSG transmission to shift gears.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
I'm still curious what those folks who have had problems/recorded a spike think they are hearing. .3 seconds is not long enough for the human ear to determine a pattern to a particular sound. If anything, all you would hear is a single sharp burst. Is that what everyone is experiencing?
By comparison .3 seconds is about the time it takes the DSG transmission to shift gears.

Even with an Evoms I can't hear anything other than the sound of a mechanical DV letting off. With the OEM DV I heard a somewhat similar noise as well. I've never had the "wacacaca" noise that people talk about and I rarely had the whistle with the OEM (usually early in the drive as the motor warmed up...). The Forge DV eliminated the whistle all together.


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*

sPongebobnopants.....come on now,how many people even keep cars fpor 100k now?And if you did you will probably have MULTIPLE parts crapping out on your VW,it is the nature of the beast......did yu see the thread about the fuel pump follower diintegrating and blowing up the whole engine?Trust me,with a VAG vehicle the LAST thing you have to worry about is the turbo!!!!







IF you still own the car @ 100K the only thing that probably won't break is the turbo!!


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## gtidylank (Mar 14, 2007)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_ 
Please remember this FACT......you bought a VAG car,you can have the Pope and mother Theresa and the DaliLama bless it,and keep ot STOCK and it will STILL have problems!!











HAHAHA That is so true... I never bought any VW because of it's "reliability" My girlfriends BONE STOCK MKIV GLS 1.8T Has had more problems then my MKIV 1.8t GTI and MKV GTI combined.... but that's because she's had the same Jetta for almost 4 years now and I've switched almost once a year...
which reminds me.. I just passed the 1 year anniversery.. maybe time to trade in before it breaks....LOL


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
I'm still curious what those folks who have had problems/recorded a spike think they are hearing. .3 seconds is not long enough for the human ear to determine a pattern to a particular sound. If anything, all you would hear is a single sharp burst. Is that what everyone is experiencing?
By comparison .3 seconds is about the time it takes the DSG transmission to shift gears.

No . . . it takes 40 milliseconds for the DSG to upshift. That would be .04s.
.3s is around the time it takes for a person with a manual transmission to shift.
Dave


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## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
No . . . it takes 40 milliseconds for the DSG to upshift. That would be .04s.
.3s is around the time it takes for a person with a manual transmission to shift.
Dave

I know those very low shift times have been quoted before, but they are inaccurate according to both Volkswagen and Audi USA's information. They both claim 2/10's, or .2 seconds
http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us....html
http://www.vw.com/gti/features...e/DSG
Speaking from personal experience also, the DSG doesn't shift anywhere near .04s. Maybe that's just the gear selection time???
You must be power shifting all the time if you can shift a MT in .3 seconds!


----------



## dub88d (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_I posted this earlier in this thread,what I am TRYING to say is a "2.5psi"-"4psi" spike is redundant......come on now......do you REALLY think the 2.0TFSI K03 turbo is any DIFFERENT than any other turbo manufactured?There have been turbo cars built by MANY other manufacturers over the years,and they ALL used mechanical diverter valve setup,and they all have a mechanical "latency" period when opening up,and the turbos would still last 100K miles or more!!
I work on VAG cars 5 days a week,and even with 23psi+spiking K03's,I rarely see a OEM turbo failure,and when I do 99% of the time it is due to sludge/owner neglect....
So if you REALLY want your turbos to last,make a thread about good oil change habits because a small spike after you let off the gas is NOT going to harm your pea shooter OEM turbo,no matter how you interpret thos colorful little graphs.....yes maybe the OEM one is faster due to the fact it is a electrical solenoid with virtually no weight/mass so the valve "opens" faster,but the FORGE is a mechanical valve JUST LIKE the ones that came out on every car before the 2.0T......and they did and still work just fine.
Some of you guys should focus on ENJOYING your cars instead of TRYING to find issues that don't exist to create artificial drama.....I guess I am oldschool and come from a time when cars were cars and men were men,and enjoyed their cars,and didn't drive around with a laptop everywhere thinking they are piloting the space shuttel and relaying to mission control what a dire circumstance they have come accross which may jeopardise their mission















 Please remember this FACT......you bought a VAG car,you can have the Pope and mother Theresa and the DaliLama bless it,and keep ot STOCK and it will STILL have problems!!








And I remember installing 2 FORGE MECHANICAL 007's on a $80,000.00 RS6 and guess what?The owner was happy and enjoyed his car,he wasn't "scared" of hurting TWO TURBOS on his twin turbo V8,you know why?Because he had COMMON SENSE.









_Modified by VWAUDITEK at 1:58 PM 7-26-2007_

x2 
4000k... with the Forge DV and running strong... 











_Modified by dub88d at 9:31 PM 7-26-2007_


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## Hkysk8r07 (Jul 9, 2005)

*Re: (dub88d)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dub88d* »_
4000k... with the Forge DV and running strong... 









4500+ on mine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Forge Motorsport (May 3, 2001)

*Re: (Hkysk8r07)*

6 months on the Forge Golf V . no codes , no spikes , nothing , still going strong .


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Forge Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Forge Motorsport* »_6 months on the Forge Golf V . no codes , no spikes , nothing , still going strong .


No spikes? Why does everyone else who uses your product get spikes then?


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
No spikes? Why does everyone else who uses your product get spikes then?

Might be the difference in tuning styles UK and US may be different with regards to how the software is mapped to vent boost...just a thought


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

After reading the surge thread created by mike, one could logically conclude that what we are seeing is not surge and just delay in valve actuation.
I base this on the logs that the oem does not show the spike and the forge does.
Also determined from the article posted is that this is in no way harmful to the engine.
Either way, I would venture a guess that optimal performance is indicated by how the OEM functions where the spike does not occur.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_
Might be the difference in tuning styles UK and US may be different with regards to how the software is mapped to vent boost...just a thought

So you're saying in Europe they can tune to anticipate your foot coming off the pedal? Interesting theory.


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*

no what i was saying is that... after reading the compressor surge thread. It seems that small spikes can be caused by ineffective tuning of the ECU for a valve with electronic actuation. 
"back to bypass valves, though. As mechanical style valves operate based on a pressure differential, they will open until such a time that the pressure differential (between the intake manifold and charge piping) is equalized. Electronically controlled valves are manipulated in accordance to prerecorded and predetermined pressure differential control variables that try to mimic mechanical valve operation as closely as possible under every possible condition. These control variables are stipulated in code in the ECU that can then be tied to other variables such as throttle position which will actuate the valve when certain predetermined conditions are met." 
^from the compressor surge thread


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_no what i was saying is that... after reading the compressor surge thread. It seems that small spikes can be caused by ineffective tuning of the ECU for a valve with electronic actuation. 
"back to bypass valves, though. As mechanical style valves operate based on a pressure differential, they will open until such a time that the pressure differential (between the intake manifold and charge piping) is equalized. Electronically controlled valves are manipulated in accordance to prerecorded and predetermined pressure differential control variables that try to mimic mechanical valve operation as closely as possible under every possible condition. These control variables are stipulated in code in the ECU that can then be tied to other variables such as throttle position which will actuate the valve when certain predetermined conditions are met." 
^from the compressor surge thread

Foot comes off, the DV opens . . . the issue is that the cracking pressure of the valve is high enough that there is a latency in when the valve will open due to the increased pressure differential required to open the valve. 
Lets not forget that the above statement forgets to include the added force of the spring. The valve will actually shut before the pressure differential is equalized at a point near or under the cracking pressure of the valve.
Dave


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_no what i was saying is that... after reading the compressor surge thread. It seems that small spikes can be caused by ineffective tuning of the ECU for a valve with electronic actuation. 
"back to bypass valves, though. As mechanical style valves operate based on a pressure differential, they will open until such a time that the pressure differential (between the intake manifold and charge piping) is equalized. Electronically controlled valves are manipulated in accordance to prerecorded and predetermined pressure differential control variables that try to mimic mechanical valve operation as closely as possible under every possible condition. These control variables are stipulated in code in the ECU that can then be tied to other variables such as throttle position which will actuate the valve when certain predetermined conditions are met." 
^from the compressor surge thread

So despite the fact that the stock OEM DV sees _no spike_, you're saying that it's an electronic tuning problem? I'm sorry but I don't see how that follows. Aside from that, the Forge DV is mechanical. Despite the fact that it is actuated by the OEM DV signal (which Forge doesn't modify) the spikes are caused by the delay in build up of a large enough differential to actuate the valve (also explained in the "surge" thread).


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

I totally agree with you there, the spring may very well be too rigid for the boost levels of the K03. Im just trying flush out as many variables as I can. I mean we have 8 pages here and it seems that there could be other factors involved than what have been discussed


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_I totally agree with you there, the spring may very well be too rigid for the boost levels of the K03. Im just trying flush out as many variables as I can. I mean we have 8 pages here and it seems that there could be other factors involved than what have been discussed

Spring rate was the #1 suggestion I made . . . the other was the possibility of adding a vaccum reservoir. Vac reservoir would allow for an appropriate pressure differential to crack the valve to build up sooner. The positioning of the reservoir with a check valve setup would also allow the use of a less stiff spring since there would be less volume in the lines to pressurize and quicker pressure equalization on both sides of the valve. Again . . . both things I mentioned in the very first post of this thread . . .
Mike posted a long time ago that it was tuned for a slightly larger than stock turbo (twin scroll K04). Not sure what PSI those are spiking at these days . . .
Dave


_Modified by crew219 at 8:04 AM 7-27-2007_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_I totally agree with you there, the spring may very well be too rigid for the boost levels of the K03. Im just trying flush out as many variables as I can. I mean we have 8 pages here and it seems that there could be other factors involved than what have been discussed

You only now believe that because the company in question has supplied an explanation that seemingly _ties it all up_. I see no problem with that at all.








While I do see a lot of sense in what Mike posted, a lot of it still is what I might still call theory, as he did not specifically apply it to any situation on our specific cars with any kind of data. Data which Forge assured us they had and as of yet have still not provided in any way.


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
So despite the fact that the stock OEM DV sees _no spike_, you're saying that it's an electronic tuning problem? I'm sorry but I don't see how that follows. Aside from that, the Forge DV is mechanical. Despite the fact that it is actuated by the OEM DV signal (which Forge doesn't modify) the spikes are caused by the delay in build up of a large enough differential to actuate the valve (also explained in the "surge" thread).

Dude Im not here to be crucified by you... ECU controls the throttle position as well as the signal to vent boost, Im just saying that it may be possible some tuners have taken the corillation between the two into account. yes you lift off the throttle and it opens I get that. All Im saying is that the blown DV and PCV valve problems were not as huge of an epidemic in the UK as they were here could that be a result of better independent tuning ovesea's . The best tune is always a custom one


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_
Dude Im not here to be crucified by you... ECU controls the throttle position as well as the signal to vent boost, Im just saying that it may be possible some tuners have taken the corillation between the two into account. yes you lift off the throttle and it opens I get that. All Im saying is that the blown DV and PCV valve problems were not as huge of an epidemic in the UK as they were here could that be a result of better independent tuning ovesea's . The best tune is always a custom one 

Few things to consider . . . quite a few tuners overseas don't tune to the limit, given warranty implications & etc. DV & PCV issues are often over-represented on forums. Given that the DV signal is most likely triggered at the same time the throttle plate is signaled to close, I doubt you can further improve on the latency via a tune.
Dave


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*

I could respond to mikes "story"; which was a good read, with a long reply, but pictures and video do the trick.








Still wondering why my car spiked/surged with the Forge Spacer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYNP5pEudk 
Here is a graph of the sound. The Spike is the Pucker/surge sound!









And now with the Spacer out it sounds like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZQ8g2C2xQ 
Here is a graph without a pucker... Just consistant.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_I could respond to mikes "story"; which was a good read, with a long reply, but pictures and video do the trick.








Still wondering why my car spiked/surged with the Forge Spacer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYNP5pEudk 
Here is a graph of the sound. The Spike is the Pucker/surge sound!









And now with the Spacer out it sounds like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZQ8g2C2xQ 
Here is a graph without a pucker... Just consistant.









wow, out of curiousity, how did you gather the info?
Dave


----------



## NAMotorsports (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_I could respond to mikes "story"; which was a good read, with a long reply, but pictures and video do the trick.








Still wondering why my car spiked/surged with the Forge Spacer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYNP5pEudk 
Here is a graph of the sound. The Spike is the Pucker/surge sound!









And now with the Spacer out it sounds like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZQ8g2C2xQ 
Here is a graph without a pucker... Just consistant.









I'm a little confused by this. Isn't the idea of the spacer to make noise just like the noise you've recorded? The spacer is supposed to give you a 'blow-off valve' sound... which is exactly what I hear here.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NAMotorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NAMotorsports* »_
I'm a little confused by this. Isn't the idea of the spacer to make noise just like the noise you've recorded? The spacer is supposed to give you a 'blow-off valve' sound... which is exactly what I hear here.

Right. I applaud the effort, but I guess I see it doing what it's supposed to do. What have you inerpreted from this graph, Sponge?


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NAMotorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NAMotorsports* »_
I'm a little confused by this. Isn't the idea of the spacer to make noise just like the noise you've recorded? The spacer is supposed to give you a 'blow-off valve' sound... which is exactly what I hear here.

Yes that would be the IDEA of the spacer, however the pucker at the end is very abnormal and the sound you hear is not coming from the spacer. It is coming from the intake. You can't even hear the spacer at those RPM's over the TBE.... Hence the reason people with a stock or Carbonio intake are not hearing it.
Anyone who has this spacer knows it does not sound like this. The spacer has a PSSSSSSS sound. If the Spacer was venting properly then technically the spacer video would be quieter than the non-spacer since the non-spacer is recirculating back in and not under the car masked by the TBE sounds.


_Modified by Spongebobnopants at 11:43 AM 7-27-2007_


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NAMotorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NAMotorsports* »_
I'm a little confused by this. Isn't the idea of the spacer to make noise just like the noise you've recorded? The spacer is supposed to give you a 'blow-off valve' sound... which is exactly what I hear here.

Yes that would be the IDEA of the spacer, however the pucker at the end is very abnormal and the sound you hear is not coming from the spacer. It is coming from the intake. You can't even hear the spacer at those RPM's over the TBE.... Hence the reason people with a stock or Carbonio intake are not hearing it.
Anyone who has this spacer knows it does not sound like this. The spacer has a PSSSSSSS sound. If the Spacer was venting properly then technically the spacer video would be quieter than the non-spacer since it is recirculating back in and not under the car masked by the TBE sounds.


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## NAMotorsports (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Yes that would be the IDEA of the spacer, however the pucker at the end is very abnormal and the sound you hear is not coming from the spacer. It is coming from the intake. You can't even hear the spacer at those RPM's over the TBE.... Hence the reason people with a stock or Carbonio intake are not hearing it.
Anyone who has this spacer knows it does not sound like this. The spacer has a PSSSSSSS sound. If the Spacer was venting properly then technically the spacer video would be quieter than the non-spacer since it is recirculating back in and not under the car masked by the TBE sounds.

I still don't think you're understanding the way the spacer works. The spacer has holes in it. These holes vent air... air under pressure. When your DV opens air is sent rushing through these holes, vents to the atmosphere, and gives you a PSSSHH sound. There is no way possible that a non-spacer setup (with no holes, and thus no air venting to the atmosphere) to be louder than a spacer setup, assuming you are running the factory airbox.
IF on the other hand you have some type of aftermarket intake such as the EVOMS or the Neuspeed P-Flo... then you are going to get two sounds if you have the Forge spacer. The sound coming from the spacer itself, and the sound of the redirected air making its way back into the intake system. These two sounds most likely are not going to be timed exactly the same, since the air hits the spacer holes before getting back to the intake side of the system. Maybe this is the sound you are referring to?


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

[email protected], given the amount of time you (or someone at Forge UK) spent on that explanation of surge, surely you'll find time to post the data you said you had while testing the Forge DV. Thanks in advance.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NAMotorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NAMotorsports* »_ These two sounds most likely are not going to be timed exactly the same, since the air hits the spacer holes before getting back to the intake side of the system. Maybe this is the sound you are referring to?

The Video is from the inside of the car. Trust me you can't hear the spacer over the TBE unless you have the window open. What appears to be happening as I had stated many threads earlier is the Spacer is not venting fast enough, hence the pucker noise/surge through the intake.
Can't hear this with the Carbonio, but you are hearing it through the Evoms in these.
I'm not trying to heart your sales. I even bought the DV from you guys. I picked up the spacer from a local shop though.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_Spacer is not venting fast enough

I don't think that matters... the non vented air recirculates just like the stock setup.


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## NAMotorsports (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
The Video is from the inside of the car. Trust me you can't hear the spacer over the TBE unless you have the window open. What appears to be happening as I had stated many threads earlier is the Spacer is not venting fast enough, hence the pucker noise/surge through the intake.
Can't hear this with the Carbonio, but you are hearing it through the Evoms in these.
I'm not trying to heart your sales. I even bought the DV from you guys. I picked up the spacer from a local shop though.









That's fine, and I'm not trying to get into any sort of arguement... just trying to explain the situation to avoid more misinformation in this thread.
FYI... I've been running the Forge DV in my own 2.0T for 3 or 4 months now, so I've been following this thread very closely... biting my tongue with every new page, to the point its gonna start bleeding.
At any rate... what I am saying is, perhaps this noise you are hearing through your EVOMS intake is the same exact noise I hear through my Neuspeed P-Flo. I am not running the spacer... just to put that out there. However, I still get the PSSSHHH sound through my intake as well. This is the sound of the redirected air from the diverter valve making its way back into the intake system. This is why you can hear it through the intake. I've had the P-Flo for a year, and I've gotten the same exact sound with both the factory DV and the Forge DV. I'm pretty sure this is the sound you are referring to.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
I don't think that matters... the non vented air recirculates just like the stock setup.

It can't though...


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

How does the adjustable spacer work?


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NAMotorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NAMotorsports* »_
I've had the P-Flo for a year, and I've gotten the same exact sound with both the factory DV and the Forge DV. I'm pretty sure this is the sound you are referring to.

Do a WOT and DROP and see if you get the pucker at the end. From what I have seen, the spacer showed the worst spikes. I stated early on I pulled off the Forge DV as I knew I had a problem and was just doing process of elimination. Now with the spacer off I hear the recirculation. It is pretty loud, although nowhere near the Pucker/surge noise. 
Why would the spacer produce a louder noise through the intake if it was venting properly. If it was working properly under this load then you would not hear that pucker/surge at WOT DROP. If this doesn't make sense please look at my logs earlier in the thread that indicate the same thing happening.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

My own log from today...
ForgeDV, no spacer, carbonio, APR Stage 1 93 Octane program










_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 4:39 PM 7-27-2007_


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## DeathMoJo (Oct 8, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_My own log from today...









im getting the X


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_My own log from today...

You might consider changine your X-axis to time rather than RPMs but you can see what it shows.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Yea I probably should have...but either way its reading the spike. I wish I had time to put my oem in today but I have plans tonight and its hot as hell out there, not to mention the hot car. I will definitely be putting the oem back on and running the same exact test...2500, full throttle in 3rd, lift at 4500.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_How does the adjustable spacer work?

From the looks of it in full vent it should be similar to the no-adjust spacer as it looks like it takes up the same space in the turbo.
Other than that I can't comment as I haven't used or seen live.


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## NAMotorsports (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

Ok, I apologize.. the situation I was referring to would only be possible using the adjustable spacer. The non-adjustable spacer does not redirect air, it blows off all air. The adjustable spacer has the ability to redirect air as well as blow it off. So I'm assuming based on your statements that you do not have the adjustable spacer.

_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Why would the spacer produce a louder noise through the intake if it was venting properly. If it was working properly under this load then you would not hear that pucker/surge at WOT DROP. If this doesn't make sense please look at my logs earlier in the thread that indicate the same thing happening. 


I was saying that if the spacer is venting properly, it is of course going to make more noise than if you were running with no spacer. This was assuming you were running factory airbox as I stated at the end of that paragraph. If you have a spacer and factory airbox, you'll hear the air from the spacer. If you have no spacer and an intake, you'll hear the air from the intake. Again, this is all assuming you have the standard spacer, and not the adjustable spacer, as that one can recirculate depending on how you have it set.
Hopefully that makes sense... starting to confuse myself over here!


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Carbonio, APR stage 2 93 octane, milltek TBE, Forge DV no spacer...


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Stage 1 and stage 2?


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

First one is stage 1 93 file, carbonio, forge dv...2nd one is stage 2 93 file, carbonio, forge dv, milltek tbe
Here is all stock...
The oem run must be redone...user may have hit the clutch same time as letting off the gas, invalidating the reading.


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 12:48 PM 7-30-2007_


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

You know what baffles me as I look at this again...
APR Stage 1...4psi spike
APR Stage 2...4psi spike
Stock...must be relogged.
Weird how the boost levels vary so much but the ForgeDV is consistent at 4psi.


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 3:02 PM 7-30-2007_


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Unless Forge starts to divulge some testing data here as to how they determined their spacer and or DV would recirculate and or vent as fast or faster than the OEM, I can only let the facts that we have determined here to be just that. So if graphs and audio describing surge don't do it alone then maybe this will help. Here is two pictures that will explain why Forge spacer might not be venting properly with the Forge or OEM DV.
Forge spacer and Forge DV limitation:








Forge spacer with OEM DV limitation:


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Interesting pics...didn't even think to look at that before...good shots.
From the surge threads...courtesy of Naois...
Please read the quote below taken from:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/....html

_Quote »_Quote:
Surge is the left hand boundary of the compressor map. Operation to the left of this line represents a region of flow instability. This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The first and most damaging is surge under load. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. *Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting.* This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. *This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.*
Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 7:30 AM 7-30-2007_ 

_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 7:33 AM 7-30-2007_

_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 7:34 AM 7-30-2007_

_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 7:34 AM 7-30-2007_


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 11:42 AM 7-30-2007_


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Sorry guys, my oem log has to be redone...user may have hit the clutch at the same time as letting off the gas out of habit. Wed I will have a plethora of cars to test!


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## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Sorry guys, my oem log has to be redone...user may have hit the clutch at the same time as letting off the gas out of habit. Wed I will have a plethora of cars to test!

Since the main thrust of this thread centers around the potential spike in pressure after the throttle plate closes, and how that may, or may not, be detrimental to the onset of boost after coming back on the throttle, would you be up for logging both on the same run?
I'd be really curious to see what the difference in boost response is with, and without, the trailing throttle pressure spike. There's been a lot of data and discussion about cause, but not a lot on effect so far.
Anyway, just a thought if you will be running new logs.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Can you be a little more specific, not sure I understand what you want me to log.
If you have a procedure please post and I'll follow no issue!


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
Since the main thrust of this thread centers around the potential spike in pressure after the throttle plate closes, and how that may, or may not, be detrimental to the onset of boost after coming back on the throttle, would you be up for logging both on the same run?
I'd be really curious to see what the difference in boost response is with, and without, the trailing throttle pressure spike. There's been a lot of data and discussion about cause, but not a lot on effect so far.
Anyway, just a thought if you will be running new logs.

I tried performing this log but timing it exactly under the exact same conditions is notoriously hard. Going on and off throttle induces a variable of the duration between both throttle inputs, also dependent on start and stop RPMs. With different duration between throttle inputs there is also a variance in RPM drop. 
I simply noticed the lag most during shifting and that is the only thing that can be stated accurately at this time. 
Dave


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## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

Ahh, yes. I see Dave's point. Getting back on the throttle at the same time would be critical to getting a consistent result for comparison. I'm also guessing that the rates of decay would equalize after some amount of time masking any potential differences.
You'd probably need to do a full throttle run through two gears to be able to see the time to boost rate after the throttle close.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Sorry guys, logs will not be coming. I'm bowing out of this debate. Forge themselves have made it perfectly clear they won't even acknowledge any new logs because they think we're crazy...so fine...I'm done.


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 7:43 AM 7-31-2007_


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Sorry guys, logs will not be coming. I'm bowing out of this debate. Forge themselves have made it perfectly clear they won't even acknowledge any new logs because they think we're crazy...so fine...I'm done.
_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 7:43 AM 7-31-2007_

Thanks for all you work! It is a shame Forge will only comment when they are trying to sell something, but not comment when people are having problems.
I pointed out on another forum yesterday that when the Forge spacer is mounted to the Forge DV it has less than 1/2 the venting capability than the Forge DV itself. The only reason I can conclude this is that if the choose to drill 3 more holes in the spacer it would start running to rich and start throwing codes. So instead of throwing codes they have chosen to induce surge... lol.
Simply Brilliant!


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

Please tell us again WHAT is this "problem" you guys are talking about?














It IS NOT surge......


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_Please tell us again WHAT is this "problem" you guys are talking about?














It IS NOT surge......

What... No song for us today? We used to at least get some entertainment out of your posts. Oh and NOW we are on Page #9.








Thanks for bumping the thread though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rafiki2 (Oct 10, 2005)

wow, iv never read so much on vortex. and i still havnt seen forges response. summary of the 9 pages would be nice







what happened


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (rafiki2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rafiki2* »_wow, iv never read so much on vortex. and i still havnt seen forges response. summary of the 9 pages would be nice







what happened 

Summary:
Forge Valve is slower than OEM.
Forge valve causes surge... The amount and danger are being debated.
Multiple Turbo experts say. "avoid any surge at all costs".
Forge valve with forge spacer is the worst surge.
Forge has been absent for about 3 weeks.
0 concerns have been addressed by Forge.
Hope this helps.


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## ForgeMotorsport (Nov 16, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

we have replied 
the information is there


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Really? Where? You mean the surge thread that explained what surge was and was contradicted by garrett?


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (ForgeMotorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ForgeMotorsport* »_we have replied 
the information is there


A little birdie told me that Forge was aware of this surge or "flutter" issue before they released the valve. Do you confirm or deny this?
Fuel, meet fire.


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## rafiki2 (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Summary:
Forge Valve is slower than OEM.
Forge valve causes surge... The amount and danger are being debated.
Multiple Turbo experts say. "avoid any surge at all costs".
Forge valve with forge spacer is the worst surge.
Forge has been absent for about 3 weeks.
0 concerns have been addressed by Forge.
Hope this helps.


thanks a lot http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Really? Where? You mean the surge thread that explained what surge was and was contradicted by garrett?

Well, this is a little mis-leading.
The quotes taken from the Garrett website talked about two different types of surge. The first being very harmful and related to opposing forces on the turbine and compressor sides, which concurred with the original post from Forge.
The second type of surge mentioned was in relation to pressure only on the compressor side, that although not harmful to any components isn't the best for performance. Keep in mind also that the quote specifically mentioned this as a problem with systems not using any type of blow-off, or recirculating valve, at all.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

They said the valve is used to keep surge from occurring...what we're seeing is a delay in actuation allowing surge to take place even for a moment, and the argument is that the OEM reacts faster than the forge valve preventing or severely limiting the duration of this fluctuation.
My forge valve is coming off tomorrow...and I'll be taking more logs. It has been argued that diff cars behave differently...I'm out to see if that's the case with mine. I have logs on the forge valve as I have posted. I'm going to follow the exact same procedure to get my results. This will occur sometime Thursday as I'm off from work and will have time to do the removal/install.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
Well, this is a little mis-leading.
The quotes taken from the Garrett website talked about two different types of surge. The first being very harmful and related to opposing forces on the turbine and compressor sides, which concurred with the original post from Forge.
The second type of surge mentioned was in relation to pressure only on the compressor side, that although not harmful to any components isn't the best for performance. Keep in mind also that the quote specifically mentioned this as a problem with systems not using any type of blow-off, or recirculating valve, at all.

Re-read again for yourself

_Quote, originally posted by *Garrett Turbochargers* »_Surge is the left hand boundary of the compressor map. Operation to the left of this line represents a region of flow instability. This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The *first and most damaging is surge under load*. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting. This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.
Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.

It didn't indicate that the second type of surge wasn't damaging, simply that it was less damaging than the first type of surge. In addition, a valve that doesn't flow as well or is latent in opening also wouldn't perform well and would most likely induce this second form of surge. 
Whether you believe the latency and subsequent spike has a deleterious effect on your turbo is up to you. At max PSI, where the turbo is being already overdriven, I exhibit no spikes with the stock valve, but significant spikes with the forge valve. In my personal opinion for my own setup, it is not wise to keep it on my car. As mentioned before, I purchased this valve with a slight belief in the marketing claims which forge was advertising. Here are a few of those claims:
























Having seen for myself that these claims are bogus, I didn't see a reason to keep a poorer performing (in release response) valve that costs $250. The only way that Forge's claims would be true is if the stock valves which they were comparing their product to were defective or broken. 
Dave


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Re-read again for yourself
It didn't indicate that the second type of surge wasn't damaging, simply that it was less damaging than the first type of surge. In addition, a valve that doesn't flow as well or is latent in opening also wouldn't perform well and would most likely induce this second form of surge. 

Dave


I did read it directly from the Garret site. Our interpretations differ. Look at this sentence in the first paragraph.

_Quote »_
Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading. 

We could argue whether .3 seconds can be considered continued operation, but I’m going to table that for now.







The crux here is that you can only have thrust loading if there are opposing forces on both sides of the turbo shaft. Without exhaust pressure there’s no opposing force, and therefore no thrust loading on the shaft. By Garrett’s own definition of what that the potential harm is, there’s no way for the second form to cause it.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
I did read it directly from the Garret site. Our interpretations differ. Look at this sentence in the first paragraph.
We could argue whether .3 seconds can be considered continued operation, but I’m going to table that for now.







The crux here is that you can only have thrust loading if there are opposing forces on both sides of the turbo shaft. Without exhaust pressure there’s no opposing force, and therefore no thrust loading on the shaft. By Garrett’s own definition of what that the potential harm is, there’s no way for the second form to cause it.

.3 seconds, everytime the throttle is lifted off between shifting a MT adds up. 
Exhaust pressure doesn't disappear once throttle is lifted. 
Dave


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

I don't know about interpretations but the Garett site seems to quite clearly explain that both surge is bad but there is a lesser of two evils..
And .3 seconds is a long time just FYI, and it's over and over and over again for the life of your turbo.


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

LOL, of course it doesn't disappear completely but it dissipates at such a rate as to not provide any meaningful thrust to the turbine.
No thrust means no load. 3/10's of a second multiplied by zero torque is still equal to zero no matter how many times you add it up.








Everyone does realize that a mechanically actuated piston valve is the norm in the turbo world, right?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

And how many of those turbos come stock with electronic diaphram valves?
The GTI was designed using an electronically operated diaphram based diverter valve and programmed as such...now you're changing that to a piston style vacuum operated valve (even with electronic diversion of vac and pressure, its still mechanical).


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_Everyone does realize that a mechanically actuated piston valve is the norm in the turbo world, right? 

No one here is really questioning the norm. No one here is even outright claiming that "OMG FORGE WILL RUINz UR TURBOZZZ!!!11:1"
There was an issue brought up here that Forge isn't having any dialogue about, they've merely made some other statement on another thread that didn't specifically mention what we're talking about here. This whole thing has just spiraled out of control because of lack of attention. It could be nothing, it could be something, they're just not working with their customers or potential customers at this point.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Also, how many turbos have you seen that come with a port for a recirc valve in the compressor housing?


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
No one here is really questioning the norm. No one here is even outright claiming that "OMG FORGE WILL RUINz UR TURBOZZZ!!!11:1"
There was an issue brought up here that Forge isn't having any dialogue about, they've merely made some other statement on another thread that didn't specifically mention what we're talking about here. This whole thing has just spiraled out of control because of lack of attention. It could be nothing, it could be something, they're just not working with their customers or potential customers at this point.

I reread it, and Forge did respond, and quite well, but they asked DC a question. DC did not answer Forge!!!!


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
No one here is really questioning the norm. No one here is even outright claiming that "OMG FORGE WILL RUINz UR TURBOZZZ!!!11:1"
There was an issue brought up here that Forge isn't having any dialogue about, they've merely made some other statement on another thread that didn't specifically mention what we're talking about here. This whole thing has just spiraled out of control because of lack of attention. It could be nothing, it could be something, they're just not working with their customers or potential customers at this point.

Finally a voice of reason! All of this doom and gloom is really a bummer.









_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegreats78* »_
And how many of those turbos come stock with electronic diaphram valves?


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegreats78* »_
Also, how many turbos have you seen that come with a port for a recirc valve in the compressor housing?


My point exactly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif VW chose a very unusual BOV arrangement. They seem to have re-thought their choice with S3 motor. Now to imply their valve placement/design has a direct correlation to the durability of the K03 turbo is a bit of a stretch. But, hey, maybe they did design a turbo unlike anything the likes of the world has ever seen before and it can only be controlled by awesome force of the mighty diaphram valve. Well, that and the Kittenz of course!


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*

Which of course is my point exactly...
The normal turbo world may use piston style mechanical valves, but this motor is different, why is it so hard to believe that there is a possibility that the piston style mechanical valve might not be ideal for this setup?
No one said the world was ending, not even I believe that which I prove by STILL running the forge valve to this day...the questions were posted, and we would like some answers, thats all. If I really thought this would kill my turbo tomorrow the valve would be off and sent back by now.
I am going to remove the valve tomorrow however to run my oem and get more logs. I will probably leave the oem in until it blows at which point if nothing else is available on the market, I'll be going back to the forge. Am I still concerned? Of course, but I'm not telling people to completely abandon the valve, just question what its really doing and how its working and what is with the latency and spikes.
Say I throw my oem valve in tomorrow, run my logs and I see the exact same spike as with the forge valve...well then there you have it...its normal. If i don't see the same spikes or if they are significantly less in duration and severity, it will again bring me back to the original question...what is this going to do to my car???


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
I reread it, and Forge did respond, and quite well, but they asked DC a question. DC did not answer Forge!!!!

I'm not seeing what you're talking about...
Are you referring to the seperate thread about flutter vs. surge?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Who's DC and what response?


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Syntrix seems to thrive on being cryptic lately


----------



## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_Syntrix seems to thrive on being cryptic lately









Lately?


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (iThread)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iThread* »_
Lately?









Touche


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (iThread)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iThread* »_
Lately?









Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Also, how many turbos have you seen that come with a port for a recirc valve in the compressor housing?

There are hundreds of thousands, if you consider that the majority of turbocharged volvos since the mid-80's 740 (all 700 & 900 series) are equipped that way. See  here  for photos. Look at the TD04 and TD05 pictures and you'll clearly see that they are even a 3-bolt attachment like ours. Same thing with the Garrett T25. (The TD04 and TD05 turbo units are made by Mitsubishi.)


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_My point exactly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif VW chose a very unusual BOV arrangement.

No. Just because you're unfamiliar with it doesn't make it 'unusual'.


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OOOO-A3* »_
No. Just because you're unfamiliar with it doesn't make it 'unusual'. 

Hmm. Synonyms for unusual .....strange, singular, curious, queer, odd. Yep I'd say Volvo fits.















FWIW, I was informed that Saab, Chrylser, and GM have also used a similar arrangement of some of their various turbo cars. My apologies if I've offended the sensibilities of my turbo brethren. Viva la difference!!


----------



## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*

I have a Greddy type s "mechanical" BOV on my GT3076R equipped car,and that turbo costs $1500.00,going on 3 years now,28 psi boost more than a few times,and it STILL WORKS!!








I wonder if the .3 seconds is hurting my turboze.....










_Modified by VWAUDITEK at 2:23 AM 8-2-2007_


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_I wonder if the .3 seconds is hurting my turboze.....









You're missing the point. A poster came here and said there's slightly worse performance with the Forge valve after Forge claimed, "We see gains everywhere in this valves performance over stock!!!!" (adlib)
He asked, "what's the issue with the delay anyways?"
To this point, Forge has not addressed the performance issues or directly addressed the inquiry about surge.
Also, I'm going to say again, I hear that Forge was warned by someone, pre-release that there was this issue with the delay and possible surge occuring on their valve and ignored it and went to production anyways.
I'm going to reiterate here that the valve could not negatively impact the life of your turbo, we're just trying to have a simple discussion about these issues that have come to light. Forge, again, is refusing to acknowledge that our concerns as customers is worth their time.... why?
When this whole thing first hit the fan I thought to myself, "ah geez, here Dave goes again..." because hey, I love the guy, I love reading his posts, but he does tend to look too heavily into things. But after awhile, Forge's lack of decent PR has caused me to change my opinion, as I'm sure many others.
Right now I consider it completely plausible that Forge knew about this prior to release, was behind schedule anyways, deemed that the small amount of surge or "flutter" occuring was acceptable, released it anyways and now doesn't want to talk about it. That kind of attitude should never be accepted in our community imho. Prove me wrong Forge, really, I want you to cause it would only hurt the community if I was right.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OOOO-A3* »_

There are hundreds of thousands, if you consider that the majority of turbocharged volvos since the mid-80's 740 (all 700 & 900 series) are equipped that way. See  here  for photos. Look at the TD04 and TD05 pictures and you'll clearly see that they are even a 3-bolt attachment like ours. Same thing with the Garrett T25. (The TD04 and TD05 turbo units are made by Mitsubishi.)

No. Just because you're unfamiliar with it doesn't make it 'unusual'. 

Really? Wow I didn't know that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , but isn't that why we're here, isn't that why this thread exists? To get more information!!!
Just one more question since you seem to know a lot about volvo turbos, where's the electronic control like ours? I see one vac line but nothing like the squid of hoses we have. Also, did Volvo use an aftermarket diverter after the fact or did they make their own in house, to work with their exact application, by their own engineers, with their own engine management system that they designed?
See my point? Of course I had no idea that this was done before, but even after seeing it, its STILL not like ours in many ways.
We were given a diaphram for a reason by VW...they could have used a piston, why didn't they?
That kinda looks like a diaphram too...was it?


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 10:03 AM 8-2-2007_


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*

We've been in here asking for answers and clarification and have gotten none. There seem to be three or four people that have gone around to several threads on several forums pushing this same thing, no one else has come to light with any issues. You seem hesitant to believe anything we or anyone else says if it's not in line with your own feelings. I'll ask again, what do Crew ( who no longer has a valve ) noregrets, and any others affected want us to demonstrate exactly?We have not seen an issue, our dealers have not seen any issues, our customers outside of the afformentioned handful have not seen any issues. In short, if we are to "satisfy" those that do have problems, I need to know what I am looking to address. I have offered refunds, I have offered to assist, I have offered to replace with a new part. I have no issue with info being presented on a public forum, more often than not we use these forums for that very reason, to find those with problems and help them. Key here is, they have to want help, they have to accept help. 
As for the contention that we knew of this "problem" before releasing..... I would LOVE to hear all about this. Please share your story. I wonder who this birdy could be and how on earth he gained such "insight"?


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

nvm angel posted


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We've been in here asking for answers and clarification and have gotten none. There seem to be three or four people that have gone around to several threads on several forums pushing this same thing, no one else has come to light with any issues. You seem hesitant to believe anything we or anyone else says if it's not in line with your own feelings. I'll ask again, what do Crew ( who no longer has a valve ) noregrets, and any others affected want us to demonstrate exactly?We have not seen an issue, our dealers have not seen any issues, our customers outside of the afformentioned handful have not seen any issues. In short, if we are to "satisfy" those that do have problems, I need to know what I am looking to address. I have offered refunds, I have offered to assist, I have offered to replace with a new part. I have no issue with info being presented on a public forum, more often than not we use these forums for that very reason, to find those with problems and help them. Key here is, they have to want help, they have to accept help. 
As for the contention that we knew of this "problem" before releasing..... I would LOVE to hear all about this. Please share your story. I wonder who this birdy could be and how on earth he gained such "insight"?

4 threads is not here and this is the only one I'm following and there hasn't been much goin on here in regards to your responses or further inquiries.
The birdies will make themselves known in time, at least I know one will, not sure about the other. I may have quoted information wrongly, it'll be rectified shortly.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

To address the concern that using different vehicles yeilds different results because no 2 cars are the same...I have taken the time to remove my forge DV and log the oem using the same procedure as last time...
The first you see is MY car with the forge DV...the 2nd is with MY car oem dv. Now tell me...where's the spike??? Anyone??? Bueller???


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

So the first graph is Forge DV with no spacer and the second graph is OEM DV with no spacer?


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

My valve after 5k miles...


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Well after 5k miles,does it seem lke your turbo is making any noises,or billowing smoke??


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

No issues whatsoever...turbo pull strong as hell and the silence is golden after having taking the spacer out.
I removed the spacer first before I started taking logs. 
The two logs above are no spacer.


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 4:30 PM 8-2-2007_


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

the gaskets seem like people might be getting new ones often enough from Forge...
Good thing they'll take care of it all no questions asked...


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## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Really? Wow I didn't know that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , but isn't that why we're here, isn't that why this thread exists? To get more information!!!

Ideally, yes, but there's so much misinformation and too many agendas and armchair mechanics; the signal/noise ratio is horrible.


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Just one more question since you seem to know a lot about volvo turbos, where's the electronic control like ours? I see one vac line but nothing like the squid of hoses we have. 

Don't know a whole lot about them, but did happen to know that they have the valve (which the volvo crowd calls a 'compressor bypass valve' or CBV) mounted directly on the turbo, NOT in any piping away from the turbo. They do not have electronic control, they just have one vacuum line. There's a Porsche (993? not sure) with the same setup, too.
The 'squid of hoses' on the Forge valve is a way to provide ECU control without the electromagnet arrangement that the stock valve uses. It's neither good nor bad, it's just there.
Anyway, I didn't mean that the volvo valve was electronically controlled like ours. The post I was responding to was in regard to the *LOCATION* of the valve. 


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Also, did Volvo use an aftermarket diverter after the fact or did they make their own in house, to work with their exact application, by their own engineers, with their own engine management system that they designed?

They didn't even bother making their own turbos







Those Mitsubishi turbos have shown up on other cars, too. As for aftermarket valves..... All the volvo boards I looked at were full of people who had no clue what the valve was for. Nobody seems to maintain/replace them, and in fact, the dealer has *no* part number for the valve separate from the turbo! When you buy a reman turbo, it comes with a new valve. It's as if it was expected to last the life of the turbo. Novel concept, eh?


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_See my point? Of course I had no idea that this was done before, but even after seeing it, its STILL not like ours in many ways.

Again, i brought it up in reference to the LOCATION of the valve.

_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_We were given a diaphram for a reason by VW...they could have used a piston, why didn't they? 

They could have used A/C compressors that don't seize, they could have made sunshade latches that don't break on the first use, they could have made seat bolsters that don't crack, they could have made window switches that don't peel, they could have made a PCV valve that didn't fail, they could have made coilpacks that don't catch fire..... What's *your* point, that on this _one particular item_ their judgement was infallible? Sorry. VW/Audi have a demonstrated record of poor judgement with the spec'ing and design of accessory parts. We were also given an intake/exhaust/brakes/etc. that aren't the _best ever_ from the factory, hence the market for 'upgrades'.

_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_That kinda looks like a diaphram too...was it?

Big honkin' rubber diaphragm.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*

OOOO-A3, you were clear in your post. "dv" is mounted on the turbo. Different animal, but same function. Simple as that.
IIRC, you mentioned a 3 bolt. That's 1.8T days, new 2.0T is a manifold and turbo as one, there are not 3 bolts to mount on a stock turbo nowadays.
cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!


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## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_IIRC, you mentioned a 3 bolt. That's 1.8T days, new 2.0T is a manifold and turbo as one, there are not 3 bolts to mount on a stock turbo nowadays.

I meant how the valve attaches, with 3 bolts & flanges in a triangular pattern, like ours. Not the two-hose-nipples like, say, an 007 valve.


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_My valve after 5k miles...
















 
I would have these pieces made in bronze in-pregnant carbon internals with piston rings made in the same material to eliminate the orings then you would have a faster acting valve and the bronze is self lubricating with very little maintenance . 
If someone has a spare valve that can live with out it for a month or so I could prob get some proto-type pieces made up.







Bob.G


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
I would have these pieces made in bronze in-pregnant carbon internals with piston rings made in the same material to eliminate the orings then you would have a faster acting valve and the bronze is self lubricating with very little maintenance . 



Thinking about it even more i would Just re- chuck the valve body and machine it within .00001 with NO grooves just hold tight tolerance between the piston and the i.d. of the body . 
Then you can eliminate any sealing rings all together.
Is this body made out of ALLOY or S.S.??? prob alloy from the cost of the valve im sure .







Bob.G


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

bronze wears fast as a piston on a dv. Most of the dv/bov's I've bought that had bronze wore down and leaked after 10k miles or less. Maybe there's bronze blends that are more faptacular?
cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_bronze wears fast as a piston on a dv. Most of the dv/bov's I've bought that had bronze wore down and leaked after 10k miles or less. Maybe there's bronze blends that are more faptacular?
cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!
 
Its carbon with some bronze in-pregnant into it . 
I worked many years in a specialty carbon factory . We would make many different types of carbon depending the application . We did alot of gas generator seals , vane type aircraft fuel pumps, we have a contract with Cummings engine for sleeves made out of this similar type of material in each and every injector pump that comes from them , this allowed it to worked very well with low sulfur fuel.
Basically they can make what you need for the application . Everything is done IN-House from foundry , resin dept, formulation of the carbon it self. 
If Forge wanted they could contact them with a drawing and there engineers would spec the carbon needed for this application







Bob.G
http://www.metcar.com/


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

If the o rings look this bad after 5k I'd love to see how they look after 10, 20, 30? Anyone have pics? They look melted.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_If the o rings look this bad after 5k I'd love to see how they look after 10, 20, 30? Anyone have pics? They look melted.

Can you post some pics that actually show them damaged?
Looks like they are just covered in grease in the poor quality pictures above. Hard to interpret any "damage" or "badness" that you speak of.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Can you post some pics that actually show them damaged?
Looks like they are just covered in grease in the poor quality pictures above. Hard to interpret any "damage" or "badness" that you speak of.


Page two of this thread.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (syntrix)*

I have a few pics posted on this page that shows the internals clearly.
Is that grease that looks like its dripping away from the o-rings? Is it supposed to be black like that? What about the black residue on the piston itself...that's grease? Looks like melted rubber to me.
Mags, page 2 shows an improper installation using the 2nd o-ring included with the kit that was only supposed to be used with the adjustable spacer.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Mags, page 2 shows an improper installation using the 2nd o-ring included with the kit that was only supposed to be used with the adjustable spacer.

My bad. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

I can't tell anything with those pics, hence the request for you to take some better ones that backup your claim of the o-rings. To me, they just look like they have grease on them.
And I agree on the page two pics, I'd throw away that data set in a sampling








tia.waffletaco.dave.kthx.failboat!

_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I have a few pics posted on this page that shows the internals clearly.
Is that grease that looks like its dripping away from the o-rings? Is it supposed to be black like that? What about the black residue on the piston itself...that's grease? Looks like melted rubber to me.
Mags, page 2 shows an improper installation using the 2nd o-ring included with the kit that was only supposed to be used with the adjustable spacer.


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
tia.waffletaco.dave.kthx.failboat!


Oh the hits just keep coming, hahahaha


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (syntrix)*

I can take some from mine later. I did notice that the rings glossed up the plug. I'd suggest Forge sell/give a maintenance kit for these.. Spare rings, grease and to do it at prescribed times vs. waiting for one to wear out. Maybe even throw in some flare like tie straps or a 10mm hose... Sorry couldn't resist.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_I can take some from mine later. I did notice that the rings glossed up the plug. I'd suggest Forge sell/give a maintenance kit for these.. Spare rings, grease and to do it at prescribed times vs. waiting for one to wear out. Maybe even throw in some flare like tie straps or a 10mm hose... Sorry couldn't resist.

Not to be rude, but yours look like, as described by others, a failed reassembly.
I was asking for more detailed of NR's pictures. It's his choice to do it, I'm saying it would be nice if he has the time http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
My bad. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

But it still melted.... Nonetheless.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re:  (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Not to be rude, but yours look like, as described by others, a failed reassembly.
I was asking for more detailed of NR's pictures. It's his choice to do it, I'm saying it would be nice if he has the time http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

That picture was with the wrong 0-ring. The instructions that came with mine said use the black 0-ring. The brown one was for the adjustable spacer. Apparently my instructions were the early ones.. they have been updated twice since...
No offense taken. If I take photos later of the internal rings will those satisfy your needs? Any particular Angle, Zoom, DOF, ISO, Backdrop, Models?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Higher res pics are coming...stand by.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I hope these are big enough...if you want I can email the pic files...they are taken at max resolution of a 7mp camera.


----------



## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Well by the looks of things,I see a perfectly good "O" ring still in the shape of a "O".......now if it were broken it would be a "C" ring......think about it........








*humor* *sarchasm*










_Modified by VWAUDITEK at 2:19 AM 8-4-2007_


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*

I agree, they look fine in that pic.... covered in grease, but they do look fine. 
If they are bad, perhaps cleaning them off and then taking a pic would point out what I'm missing? 
Thanks for taking the time to take the pics http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (syntrix)*

dirty grease +1


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I think this is going a little too far now. Things that are plenty normal are getting posted as if they are in some way defective. The O-ring thing? I seriousely doubt there's an issue with them melting. Did you expect to pull that valve off and see the grease still being as red as it was the day you installed it? 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We've been in here asking for answers and clarification and have gotten none. There seem to be three or four people that have gone around to several threads on several forums pushing this same thing, no one else has come to light with any issues. You seem hesitant to believe anything we or anyone else says if it's not in line with your own feelings. I'll ask again, what do Crew ( who no longer has a valve ) noregrets, and any others affected want us to demonstrate exactly?We have not seen an issue, our dealers have not seen any issues, our customers outside of the afformentioned handful have not seen any issues. In short, if we are to "satisfy" those that do have problems, I need to know what I am looking to address. I have offered refunds, I have offered to assist, I have offered to replace with a new part. I have no issue with info being presented on a public forum, more often than not we use these forums for that very reason, to find those with problems and help them. Key here is, they have to want help, they have to accept help. 
As for the contention that we knew of this "problem" before releasing..... I would LOVE to hear all about this. Please share your story. I wonder who this birdy could be and how on earth he gained such "insight"?
I just wanna know if you think the spiking is caused by the size of the valve or there is a delay. This is like the 4th time I've asked that. I'm not saying it's harmful or not just wanna know where it's coming from.


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

These people who are calling the valve dirty... No crap... Look in your intercooler pipes if you want to see oil city... Crew still hasn't posted the raw data?


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_. Did you expect to pull that valve off and see the grease still being as red as it was the day you installed it? 

Seriously didn't any of you service your 1.8t Forge 007 valves, they look exactly the same


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So you're saying that black stuff is just dirty grease? If this is normal then I guess its normal.
I'd STILL like to know that since this valve is obviously and conclusively slower to react than oem what damage can be done from that.

_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 5:31 PM 8-3-2007_


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 5:33 PM 8-3-2007_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_So you're saying that black stuff is just dirty grease? If this is normal then I guess its normal.
I'd STILL like to know that since this valve is obviously and conclusively slower to react than oem what damage can be done from that.

_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 5:31 PM 8-3-2007_
If it's slower I see no real danger, Like Forge said that valve may open a fraction of a second late, but that backwards spike of boost still has to travel through a compressor that's still sending boost forward. The delay isn't long enough to hit the turbo IMO. 
What I'm worried about, which I don't think anyone agrees with me, is that it's not that the valve is delayed. That valve's internal piston area is much smaller than the normal Forge 006/007's. I think is may be too small to vent boost quickly enough. That poses a bigger problem for a big turbo upgrade. 
_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 5:33 PM 8-3-2007_


_Modified by blackvento36 at 9:44 AM 8-4-2007_


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Because big turbo setups use this diverter valve location???
What are you talking about big turbo upgrades for?


----------



## ForgeMotorsport (Nov 16, 2000)

The pictures show normal engine oil vapour mixed with the high temp grease that we use , the O rings show no adverse signs of wear , The piston looks in good shape as well.
The valve shows normal operating conditions that I would expect .
If any one needs replacment O rings , they will be sent.


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (ForgeMotorsport)*

Not to be a negative nancy.... But shouldnt the "right" orings be sent right from the factory the first time around?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (97jazzgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97jazzgti* »_Because big turbo setups use this diverter valve location???
What are you talking about big turbo upgrades for?

Not the same location, but they will use the same DV's right?
If the valve is too small to vent boost quick enough on the stock turbo, how will it handle when there is more of it?


----------



## ForgeMotorsport (Nov 16, 2000)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

The right O rings are / were sent ....I am mearly saying that if any customers feel that they would like a replacement O ring , we will send them !!!!!


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Not the same location, but they will use the same DV's right?
If the valve is too small to vent boost quick enough on the stock turbo, how will it handle when there is more of it?

No... wow lol People shouldn't talk unless they know what their talking about. On a big turbo such as a gt28rs.. theres no D/V location on the manifold....


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (ForgeMotorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ForgeMotorsport* »_The pictures show normal engine oil vapour mixed with the high temp grease that we use , the O rings show no adverse signs of wear , The piston looks in good shape as well.
The valve shows normal operating conditions that I would expect .
If any one needs replacment O rings , they will be sent.

Thank you, that's good to know http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Now what about the delay?


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Not the same location, but they will use the same DV's right?


WOW!! your serious

















_Modified by Rub-ISH at 5:17 PM 8-4-2007_


----------



## omni1 (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*

Other safer DV alternatives will be out soon, abandon the thread.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (omni1)*

The stage III kit that Autotech is developing and we are tuning for them is using a stock DV. The have designed a very cool adapter to fit it and work with their setup.


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (omni1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *omni1* »_Other safer DV alternatives will be out soon, abandon the thread.
















@ safer.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_I agree, they look fine in that pic.... covered in grease, but they do look fine. 
If they are bad, perhaps cleaning them off and then taking a pic would point out what I'm missing? 
Thanks for taking the time to take the pics http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Sorry, I meant to put this up earlier but I was working on a much bigger project. Any how, here is the piston cleaned. It look alright as well as the O-rings. before cleaning it looked just like NR's


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (97jazzgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97jazzgti* »_
No... wow lol People shouldn't talk unless they know what their talking about. On a big turbo such as a gt28rs.. theres no D/V location on the manifold....
WTF? Who said anything about it being mounted on the turbo? I was under the assumption that these kits would relocate the standard valve, similar to the S3 setup.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_
WOW!! your serious
















_Modified by Rub-ISH at 5:17 PM 8-4-2007_


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The stage III kit that Autotech is developing and we are tuning for them is using a stock DV. The have designed a very cool adapter to fit it and work with their setup.








Not even gonna comment


----------



## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

"safer".........is it also "poloitically correct"???????


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_







Not even gonna comment

Just so we are crystal clear...I know that a large turbo application will not use the on housing DV mounting position nor would the forge valve be useful for anything other than the K03. 
I was just amazed that it seemed like you didnt know that


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_
Just so we are crystal clear...I know that a large turbo application will not use the on housing DV mounting position nor would the forge valve be useful for anything other than the K03. 
I was just amazed that it seemed like you didnt know that
I did know that, but I think 97Jazzgti was a little confused and made me second guess myself.


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

respek http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## omni1 (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_"safer".........is it also "poloitically correct"???????
















you will see yourself for sure


----------



## ForgeMotorsport (Nov 16, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*

looks fine . no issues there


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_dirty grease +1

x 2
My Forge 007 valve looked like that not long after it was mounted. The dark stuff you are seeing is blowby mixed with the high-temperature grease. Do you really think Forge would be stupid enough to use o-rings that weren't rated for the temperatures generated at the turbo?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
x 2
My Forge 007 valve looked like that not long after it was mounted. The dark stuff you are seeing is blowby mixed with the high-temperature grease. Do you really think Forge would be stupid enough to use o-rings that weren't rated for the temperatures generated at the turbo?



ruso said:


> It was a question that forge has answered. That issue to me is closed, and I am grateful for the logical and conclusive answer provided.


----------



## notahonda (Jul 18, 2006)

That spike was supposed to be avoided with this design.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (notahonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *notahonda* »_That spike was supposed to be avoided with this design. 








Care to elaborate on that statement?


----------



## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

Yay Internet fighting.. 








Edit nevermind, it appears a MOD has cleaned up the personal attacks that were flying back and forth. 
I'm personally beginning to feel concern over the spacer more than the valve.. I have to go back over the last couple pages but from the first 2/3 I was noticing is seems like even with a stock valve, if the spacer was used spike was still seen. 
I have to verify though. 


_Modified by ShadowGLI at 11:54 AM 8-7-2007_


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_
I have to verify though. 
_Modified by ShadowGLI at 11:54 AM 8-7-2007_

Yes. Spike with the spacer... Seems to be the worst.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I have been and continue to be in direct contact with [email protected] who was kind enough to open a dialog outside the forums to clear up any clutter and address the issues directly. As soon as I have any conclusive information I will let everyone know with data to back it up.


----------



## wtprider180 (Aug 15, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

vwvortex is all hype. One person says one thing, everyone jumps on the wagon.


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (wtprider180)*

For the people who requested.....
BSH boost log:
Phill posted this over on golfmkv... 
But, drumroll.... NO boost spike!


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I might just pick one of these up if they can get it to work S3 style and do some testing of my own








The only thing I don't like is its fully mechanical.
Either way...lets keep this thread on the forge valve shall we? I'm still kinda talking to Mike about it.


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Definatly, i remember a few people in this thread, somwhere down the line saying they wanted to see logs.. But good thread, Ive been following it from day one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## REVGTI (Nov 14, 2001)

*Re: (volcomska)*

What chip is that, do you have that log against requested boost. 
That seems pretty impressive that there is no taper until 4500 RPM


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (REVGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *REVGTI* »_What chip is that, do you have that log against requested boost. 
That seems pretty impressive that there is no taper until 4500 RPM

It actually tapers at 4krpms, but i'd be more interested to see which chip holds at 23psi on a k03 and if he did a wastegate tweak.
Dave


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

REVO stg 2, wg tweak, and of course the BSH dv! But dont get off topic of the forge!










_Modified by volcomska at 12:59 PM 8-10-2007_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (volcomska)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volcomska* »_REVO stg 2, wg tweak, and of course the BSH dv! But dont get off topic of the forge!









Have you dynoed to see how much that 'tweak' actually gives you? I remember reading that you could maybe squeeze a few extra hp out, but the gains were not justifiable next to prolonged stress on the turbo.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Guys, please take this to the wastegate thread! I don't want to risk locking this one when we're so close to a final conclusion!


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Have you dynoed to see how much that 'tweak' actually gives you? I remember reading that you could maybe squeeze a few extra hp out, but the gains were not justifiable next to prolonged stress on the turbo.

Not so much the stress on the turbo, but the increased IATs from the increased boost. Increased IATs = less dense intake charge + less timing.
Dave


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Not so much the stress on the turbo, but the increased IATs from the increased boost. Increased IATs = less dense intake charge + less timing.
Dave

I run methanol injection, IATS stay under 35* C in Az's over 110 degree days at that high of boost. At night Ive seen as low as 28*C. Revo timing is set between 6-8 depending on ambient temp and my typical BTDC is around 18-22. Off the meth I see as high as 45* C but typically around 42-38*C. My wastegate is cranked, I hit higher then 23 psi, the factory map maxes out at 22.5 psi, This log is not a reflection of typical driving. I NEVER go WOT at 2500 rpm, I try and keep it above 3 and the car responds by keeping boost under 22 at peak. Loading the turbo up that early creates insane amounts of load and results in the graph you see above. Running through the gears each shift is met at about 20 psi and tapering from there. This isnt a backyard operation, everything we do is repeatedly abuse tested. Dont take that as being defensive, I just want to make it known. Shop pics in sig. I hope that answers your questions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Phill


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Just wanted you all to know I haven't forgotten about ya! Still talking with Mike and waiting on Angel.


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

They processed my return quickly. No questions asked. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Just wanted you all to know I haven't forgotten about ya! Still talking with Mike and waiting on Angel.

What are they saying?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

No conclusive data or results to report, yet. I will say they are determined to show the stock spikes as much as the Forge, which if that is the case, then we would not have much to worry about. They should be releasing some test results too as well. I'm trying to get the procedures they used on the OEM so I can confirm on my on vehicle.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

We have actually used crew's procedure and have over 20 logs showing a "spike" that ranges from about 2 psi up to about 3 psi with the factory dv alone, factory dv with spacer, our dv alone and our dv with spacer. So far about a 1 psi spread.... will try and get some graphs up soon. Just wanted to point that out and mention the fact that we are using the outlined testing procedure of 4kish rpm at full throttle and peak boost and a throttle chop. I'll say again that we did tons of testing on a multitude of cars before we released this and never saw any issues or anything to be concerned with. Our new testing with this thread in mind is confirming this.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Excellent...this is exactly what I was looking for. So all you did to replicate a 3psi spike is crew's procedure? I'll get that done as well.


----------



## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

interesting.
can't wait to see the new forge logs.
sooner rather than later.


_Modified by adROCK319 at 12:15 PM 8-17-2007_


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Agreed. This whole situation has gone on long enough...its time for a conclusion already. I'm tired of looking at my $250 paper weight. I'm going to clean and regrease tonight and hopefully we'll have some conclusions and I can throw it in tomorrow along with my downpipe.


----------



## gti2007red (Feb 6, 2007)

Sooo if the Forge DV is not worthy of it's position..... is there any other aftermarket companies that make DV's that you guys would recommend???????? or just recommend staying stock??
THANXX


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

The only thing that was a concern about the Forge valve was that it was slower to react and release boost than the OEM. Angel is saying that they've been able to replicate up to a 3psi spike (we've seen 4 with the Forge) indicating that the oem does suffer from some lag of its own. If the difference is a 1psi spread, I would say there isn't much to worry about.
That being said...there are other companies working on solutions at this time but none have fully come to market.
APR has been rumored to be working on one but details are scarce.
I've seen BSH work on relocating the DV S3 style but so far its not fully released and still under test.
If you want OEM placement and a solid operating valve the Forge is your best bet right now. This thread will hopefully come to a conclusion some time this week.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Sorry I haven't updated...can't run logs yet...have my dp in but no stage 2 (waiting on a new shop), so I can't push the car that hard...yet.
Anyone else wanna run some?
Forge, any updates? Logs?


----------



## chrisp-e (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Sorry I haven't updated...can't run logs yet...have my dp in but no stage 2 (waiting on a new shop), so I can't push the car that hard...yet.
Anyone else wanna run some?
Forge, any updates? Logs?

X2, getting flashed this weekend, I need a solution to this issue. Keep replacing OEM DV's, or get Forge's DV.


----------



## aiculedtzu (Nov 30, 2006)

Hi there,
Has anyone installed the Forge DV on an Audi S3 ? 
I've just ordered the valve and i'm looking for some feedback because on the Forge website i found fitting instructions only for the GTI.
Thanks,
Adrian


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (aiculedtzu)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aiculedtzu* »_Hi there,
Has anyone installed the Forge DV on an Audi S3 ? 
I've just ordered the valve and i'm looking for some feedback because on the Forge website i found fitting instructions only for the GTI.
Thanks,
Adrian

Doesn't the S3 use a front mount DV?
If so, BSH was testing a setup like this and they've had good results.
In either case, I think the valve for the S3 is different than what we're looking at here. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

on the s3, the diverter valve comes off of the normal GTI noise pipe Y and then is recirculated around the engine bay and into the intake. It uses the same DV.


----------



## aiculedtzu (Nov 30, 2006)

Yes, it's the same DV as in the GTI but it was relocated in the front, near the oil stick.
Forge has a special DV kit for the 2.0 TFSI engines with relocated DV (S3/Cupra/ed.30) but it doesn't offer any fitting instructions, so that's why i'm looking for some feedback.

*edit:
http://www.forgemotorsport.co....SITVR 











_Modified by aiculedtzu at 6:26 AM 8-23-2007_


----------



## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (aiculedtzu)*

Installation of the FMDVFSITVR ("R" for relocated) valve is identical to the standard kit. Everything is just positioned closer together.
The vacuum tap is still installed in the same location, and the valve and solenoid can be installed in the same manner as with the standard kit, but instead of being bolted to the compressor cover of the turbo on the back side of the motor, you just mount the assembly at the relocated position and just run a shorter line to the vacuum tap.
The UK will assuredly have revised instructions for this specific application done soon.


----------



## aiculedtzu (Nov 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thanks Mike.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So its been a week since Angels reply and the only info since was sales info by Mike.
Updates? Logs? Info?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

Here are 12 graphs all taken from the same car with the stock setup. We did just as crew outlined, 4k + rpm while at peak boost and drop the throttle. I think this pretty much says it all.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

It's not 2.9 as originally informed by another member (was reading and running sorry), max is 1.4.
1.4 vs. 4...and some show no spike at all. Forge is consistent. 


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 9:11 AM 8-26-2007_


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: Forge 2.0t Diverter Valve review (crew219)*

Seriously, I have never seen more bickering and immaturity from a bunch of adults in my entire life. You guys need to get out more or something. 
Thanks to those who treated this post seriously it was informative. 


_Modified by aeproberts21 at 8:28 AM 8-25-2007_


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Sorry, I haven't contributed to this thread in a while I have been tied up with another issue.
Thanks to Forge for the logs. As predicted by Forge, some people still wouldn't buy it. I'll be the first in line. While its taken you about two months to get these, half of them don't show a spike, the other half show a little spike.
So while you were busy trying to get an OEM DV to spike I have been going through some logs and took some earlier advice from Bob G. about looking for erratic behaviors in the MAF log.
What I noticed was that the spikes created by the OEM DV and the Forge Spacer showed a huge slowdown of air at the MAF. An indication of air coming back the other way. So I plotted the exact instance when the spike occurred. I also plotted Just the OEM DV without the spacer.
I do not have logs of the Forge DV by itself, but I will be post some later from other peoples logs.
Notice the spacer to the left of the Surge Line and the OEM DV alone in the safe zone.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So you have a way to show on the compressor map how the forge DV behaves and which side of the line its on?
The spacer being left of the line is very disappointing.
And looking back at the logs, its more like 100mbar not 200 as I was initially told. So that 2.9 drops down to 1.4. 0-1.4 vs. 4 consistent...doesn't look good. 
Can't wait to see the forge dv on the compressor map.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Here are 12 graphs all taken from the same car with the stock setup. We did just as crew outlined, 4k + rpm while at peak boost and drop the throttle. I think this pretty much says it all. 

#1, you're using very poor sampling rate.
#2, the max spike you're seeing is 100mbar = 1.45psi
#3, notice how when your boost request changes slope twice, that there's a small spike? That would be not lifting off throttle consistently.
#4 this is nowhere near the 4.5 PSI stock spike [email protected] was claiming. 
Dave


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Once Sponge gets the compressor map for the Forge DV...that's the end game.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Might be the wrong map...another forum says its for one of the 2 K03 turbos on a 2.7 TT. Is this the right map?


----------



## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

From what I understand, this is a KKK K03 compressor Map done by the OEM: Borg-Warner. I don't have access to one that that displays the MKV part number on it. A compressor map should be vehicle independent. It is used to determine vehicle application. In any case it you were to overlay these points, they would surge on pretty much any map.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_From what I understand, this is a KKK K03 compressor Map done by the OEM: Borg-Warner. I don't have access to one that that displays the MKV part number on it. A compressor map should be vehicle independent. It is used to determine vehicle application. In any case it you were to overlay these points, they would surge on pretty much any map.

There are many different KO3 compressor wheels and housings though which means all different maps.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There are many different KO3 compressor wheels and housings though which means all different maps.

Point taken, however this graph should be close and will suffice to make the point. I have yet to see any map where these plots are not in the safe zone.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_Sorry, I haven't contributed to this thread in a while I have been tied up with another issue.
Thanks to Forge for the logs. As predicted by Forge, some people still wouldn't buy it. I'll be the first in line. While its taken you about two months to get these, half of them don't show a spike, the other half show a little spike.
So while you were busy trying to get an OEM DV to spike I have been going through some logs and took some earlier advice from Bob G. about looking for erratic behaviors in the MAF log.
What I noticed was that the spikes created by the OEM DV and the Forge Spacer showed a huge slowdown of air at the MAF. An indication of air coming back the other way. So I plotted the exact instance when the spike occurred. I also plotted Just the OEM DV without the spacer.
I do not have logs of the Forge DV by itself, but I will be post some later from other peoples logs.
Notice the spacer to the left of the Surge Line and the OEM DV alone in the safe zone.



I was just rereading the post and checking out the map. I think you are misinterpreting the data. The reduction in MAF readings are 2 fold. One is the TB is closing and that means the engine is ingesting less air. It does not have to mean its stopping the turbo. Also its late and I'd have to double check when awake but the MAF should be able to read in both directions. Now these tests are being done with a spacer. A spacer that is letting the air out, that means no reversing of flow to through the MAF.
I am also not so sure that the surge line can be used in the way that you are trying to use it.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

I was just rereading the post and checking out the map. I think you are misinterpreting the data. The reduction in MAF readings are 2 fold. One is the TB is closing and that means the engine is ingesting less air. It does not have to mean its stopping the turbo. 

Thats why I logged ones without the spacer also.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Also its late and I'd have to double check when awake but the MAF should be able to read in both directions. 

Yes it does.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Now these tests are being done with a spacer. A spacer that is letting the air out, that means no reversing of flow to through the MAF.


That would be true if it worked correctly. As mentioned early on. The spacer vents less than 1/2 to 1/3 as fast as recirculation.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Thats why I logged ones without the spacer also.

Yes it does.
That would be true if it worked correctly. As mentioned early on. The spacer vents less than 1/2 to 1/3 as fast as recirculation.

What is your affiliation with vwvortex or it's related hosts/moderators, etc?
I noticed your images are hosted on rely.net


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
Thats why I logged ones without the spacer also.

My point is that I think the comparison you are trying to make can't be done no matter what you log since you are incorrectly using the MAF readings to mean something they don't

_Quote »_
That would be true if it worked correctly. As mentioned early on. The spacer vents less than 1/2 to 1/3 as fast as recirculation.

What are you basing this on? I agree to some extent that I always felt as if the spacer may not flow enough with its few small holes, but what proof is there of this?


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## chungsterUK (Aug 5, 2007)

how come having the spacer means less air is being released then? The spacer makes the DV system part Recirc / part Atmos as u can't close off the recirc part of the system fully (its inbuilt into the compressor housing) so i would have thought having a spacer provides another exit for the compressed air surely when the throttle is closed, in addition to the OEM recirc path?


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Spacer is full atmosphere on the non-adjustable.
The adjustable one can go back and forth but what Sponge is saying that any time you are relying on an atmosphere vent, its too restricted.


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
What is your affiliation with vwvortex or it's related hosts/moderators, etc?
I noticed your images are hosted on rely.net









http://iserve.vwvortex.com/
Anyone can sign up and get a account. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So at the end of the day...
1. The compressor maps are being challenged.
2. As even Angel posted...OEM DV is 0-1.4psi in spike upon throttle release...vs. the forge DV which has proven a 4-4.5psi spike.
3. No conclusion still...this is getting old.


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## [email protected] (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_ Is this the right map?

No. The 2.0T uses a K03-86. To give you an idea of the difference the edge of the -86 map corresponds to a flow of about .19m^3/s, about 50% higher.



_Modified by [email protected] at 11:08 AM 8-27-2007_


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No. The 2.0T uses a K03-86. To give you an idea of the difference the edge of the -86 map corresponds to a flow of about .19m^3/s, about 50% higher.
_Modified by [email protected] at 11:08 AM 8-27-2007_

Just tried searching for those maps...no luck.


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## [email protected] (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Just tried searching for those maps...no luck.

It's still classified as proprietary information.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So I guess we really can't use the maps for info here.
Are we out of ideas/options? Are we at a stalemate?


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## chiuy (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_So at the end of the day...
1. The compressor maps are being challenged.
2. As even Angel posted...OEM DV is 0-1.4psi in spike upon throttle release...vs. the forge DV which has proven a 4-4.5psi spike.
3. No conclusion still...this is getting old.

Isn't the 2nd point the conclusion that Forge shows the stock valve generate less spike than their valve?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

It exists oem. As we said early on, it mimics oem operation. We have only ever seen the larger spikes on graphs provided in this thread... no where else, including our testing. Is it not within the realm of possibilty that the fact that we are talking about graphs from multiple vehicles with differing mods in distant countries not account for the small variations? Here you have graphs that show it happening oem, addressing directly the claim that this doesn't happen oem... it's already been pointed out and mentioned as commonly occuring in most if not all turbocharged setups and easily explained as a momentary spike in local pressure owing in no small part to the placement of the map sensor and throttle body. As I expected this has done nothing but bring back the most active in the thread that held the opposing view, they still aren't satisfied. Just picking it apart. Even the size of the claimed spike caused by our dv continues to grow and move upward while the oem graphs shown are downplayed as being near zero.... there is little point in using psuedo science to further confuse and scare people. It will not hurt anything, it exists oem as well as on many turbo cars, there is no cause for alarm.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So the conclusion is...its just slower to react. And the fact that the OEM spikes just proves that there is nothing to worry about, regardless of the 3psi difference.
My valve will be going back on my car this week. I have some more tests to run for my own peace of mind.
Weird that every forge car I've tested including my own shows 4psi spikes but you haven't seen it.

_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 3:59 PM 8-27-2007_


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 4:32 PM 8-27-2007_


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

You wanna test my car Noregrets? come to the island 16 meet tonight... I'll bring vag com, or you can. Lets make this fun.


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## Spongebobnopants (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
What are you basing this on? I agree to some extent that I always felt as if the spacer may not flow enough with its few small holes, but what proof is there of this?

I measured the recirc. vent holes in the Forge DV and compared them to the holes in the spacer. 
The Spacer simply can't move the volume fast enough. Mate them together and the DV actually starts to cover some of the Spacer holes. I have pictures posted somewhere in this thread.
At this point, I really don't care anymore. I don't have a personal agenda, I just think people should be aware of what they are getting. When a vendor makes a claim they should be able to back it. 
As for the MAF testing, I think it seals the deal. The design of the Forge products are doing what I illustrated. I don't know what if any damage can occur. All I can tell you is that if it sounds like surge, graphs like surge...


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## chiuy (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Spongebobnopants)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spongebobnopants* »_
I measured the recirc. vent holes in the Forge DV and compared them to the holes in the spacer. 
The Spacer simply can't move the volume fast enough. Mate them together and the DV actually starts to cover some of the Spacer holes. I have pictures posted somewhere in this thread.
At this point, I really don't care anymore. I don't have a personal agenda, I just think people should be aware of what they are getting. When a vendor makes a claim they should be able to back it. 
As for the MAF testing, I think it seals the deal. The design of the Forge products are doing what I illustrated. I don't know what if any damage can occur. All I can tell you is that if it sounds like surge, graphs like surge...


Thank you for all the work you guys did. I agree that this is not about personal agenda. The threads about this DV have given me second thought and I decide to wait and see what's coming out from other companies. We are consumers and should have the option to choose what's the best for our cars. 
I believe other companies are looking at these threads and maybe making improvements on their prototypes, which is good for us.
At the end, if all the DVs come out have the similar "characteristic" as this Forge DV, I maybe just get the Forge one. But until then, I guess I will wait and see.



_Modified by chiuy at 11:19 PM 8-27-2007_


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (chiuy)*

In conclusion to this thread, which has been long overdue... 
*This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because...* _This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because..._ This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because...*This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because...* _This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because..._ This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because... *This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because...* _This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because..._ This is the Thread that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people started Posting it not knowing what is was. And they'll continue Posting it forever just because... 









_Modified by Rub-ISH at 12:24 AM 8-28-2007_


_Modified by Rub-ISH at 12:28 AM 8-28-2007_


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## volcomska (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*

IF you just replace song with "thread" and singing with "posting"


_Modified by volcomska at 9:01 PM 8-27-2007_


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (Rub-ISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rub-ISH* »_











*Lambchop stands corrected* 


_Modified by Rub-ISH at 12:29 AM 8-28-2007_


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