# 2005 S4, timing chains?



## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Got this S4 in the shop, misfiring bad. All misfires seem to be on bank 1. When watching measuring blocks, the misfires are primarily cylinders 1 and 3, but the numbers also increase (not as fast) on 2 and 4. Measuring blocks show no misfire counts on cylinders 5-8 (bank 2) though. Tried swapping coils, plugs, misfires never moved. Fuel pressure is within spec (3.5 bar), and the fuel pump seems to eagerly fill up a container, so volume looks good. No vacuum leaks, and unplugging MAF makes no change in the way it runs. I did find a broken EVAP hose under the car, but I can't see that being related to the misfires. When I clear the codes, misfire codes immediately return for cylinders 1-4 upon the first start and it idles with an obvious miss. 

At idle, there's a definite loud rattle from the engine that sounds like a timing chain and/or broken guide, I can't isolate exactly where it's coming from, almost sounds like it's under the intake manifold. Also, there is a popping through the intake at idle, as though timing is off. Measuring blocks seem to show that the cam adjusters are working though. 

Compression test showed 165-175psi on all 8 holes, again, doesn't exactly indicate a timing problem. However, I can't see what else 1-4 have in common that 5-8 don't....  

Based on my research, I'm thinking this car has a broken chain guide. Anyone seen this with no cam sensor or camshaft related codes? I don't think I'm missing anything, but figured I'd ask before calling the worst case scenario here... 

The obligatory auto-scan: 

Monday,24,September,2012,10:33:01:43645 
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.4 
Data version: 20120807 



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


Chassis Type: 8E - Audi A4 B6/B7 
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 0F 11 15 16 17 18 36 37 45 46 55 56 57 65 67 
69 75 76 77 

VIN: WAUGL68E45A500833 Mileage: 193910km/120490miles 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Address 01: Engine Labels: 079-910-560-BBK.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 910 560 M HW: 4E0 907 560 
Component: 4.2L V8/5V G 0010 
Revision: -------- Serial number: 
Coding: 0007771 
Shop #: WSC 06335 000 00000 
VCID: 2F661E11BEB7316088F 

8 Faults Found: 
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON 
16685 - Cylinder 1 
P0301 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON 
16687 - Cylinder 3 
P0303 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON 
16686 - Cylinder 2 
P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON 
16688 - Cylinder 4 
P0304 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON 
17538 - Fuel Trim; Bank 2 (Mult) 
P1130 - 001 - System too Lean 
16558 - Fuel Trim; Bank 2 
P0174 - 001 - System Too Lean - MIL ON 
16839 - EVAP System 
P0455 - 001 - Large Leak Detected - MIL ON 
Readiness: 0000 1101 

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Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 910 156 M HW: 09L 927 156 
Component: AG6 09L 4.2L5V USA 0040 
Revision: --H01--- Serial number: 0096904 
Coding: 0000002 
Shop #: WSC 06335 000 00000 
VCID: 30641D6DA3892E98915 

No fault code found. 

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Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8E0-910-517.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 910 517 C HW: 8E0 614 517 BB 
Component: ESP8 quattro H04 0180 
Revision: 00000000 Serial number: 00000000000000 
Coding: 0004902 
Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000 
VCID: 2756F6319647692040F 

No fault code found. 

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Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8E0-820-043.lbl 
Part No: 8E0 820 043 AM 
Component: A4 Klimaautomat 2731 
Coding: 00000 
Shop #: WSC 00000 
VCID: 6CDCC91D1C218A78EDD 

No fault code found. 

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Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 8E0-907-279-8EC.lbl 
Part No: 8E0 907 279 J 
Component: int. Lastmodul USA 0503 
Coding: 01023 
Shop #: WSC 65536 
VCID: 3972204923F3EFD026B 

No fault code found. 

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Address 0F: Digital Radio Labels: 8E0-035-593-SIR.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 035 593 D HW: 
Component: SDAR SIRIUS 
Revision: Serial number: AUZ4Z7E4006388 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000 
VCID: 2A500F05865554485F1 

1 Fault Found: 
02635 - Tuner Not Enabled/Activated 
000 - - 

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Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8E0-959-655-94.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 959 655 H HW: 8E0 959 655 H 
Component: Airbag 9.41 H10 3230 
Revision: 91H10323 Serial number: 0036N000AJFX 
Coding: 0032607 
Shop #: WSC 06335 000 00000 
VCID: 3C7C395D7FC1DAF83DD 

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8E0 910 339 B 
Component: BF-Gewichtsens. 02 0070 
Coding: 00032607 

2 Faults Found: 
01211 - Belt Tensioner Igniter; Rear Driver Side (N196) 
001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100001 
Fault Priority: 2 
Fault Frequency: 4 
Reset counter: 99 
Mileage: 1048575 km 
Time Indication: 0 

01794 - Control Module - Incorrect Chassis (VIN) Number 
000 - - - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00110000 
Fault Priority: 2 
Fault Frequency: 6 
Reset counter: 99 
Mileage: 1048575 km 
Time Indication: 0 


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Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 8E0-953-549.lbl 
Part No: 8E0 953 549 Q 
Component: Lenksáulenmodul 0601 
Coding: 02141 
Shop #: WSC 06335 
VCID: 418248A94B23B7106EB 

No fault code found. 

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Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8EC.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 920 981 Q HW: 8E0 920 981 Q 
Component: KOMBI+WFS 4 H12 0040 
Revision: 0040 Serial number: 00000000000000 
Coding: 0023261 
Shop #: WSC 08212 444 103848 
VCID: 3B7E3A4179CFDDC0347 

No fault code found. 

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Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr Labels: 8E0-959-760.lbl 
Part No: 8E0 959 760 
Component: Sitzmemory R2 F 0305 
Coding: 00002 
Shop #: WSC 00000 
VCID: F1E25869BB03E7905EB 

No fault code found. 

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Address 37: Navigation Labels: 8E0-035-192-RNSE.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 035 192 E HW: 8E0 035 192 E 
Component: RNS-E US H54 0020 
Revision: 03S Serial number: AUZBZ7E1500610 
Coding: 0309137 
Shop #: WSC 06335 000 00000 
VCID: 2648FB35924D70287B9 

3 Faults Found: 
00532 - Supply Voltage B+ 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100010 
Fault Priority: 7 
Fault Frequency: 2 
Reset counter: 121 
Time Indication: 0 
Date: 2010.11.08 
Time: 18:46:27 

Freeze Frame: 
Voltage: 12.30 V 

00446 - Function Limitation due to Under-Voltage 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100010 
Fault Priority: 7 
Fault Frequency: 7 
Reset counter: 121 
Time Indication: 0 
Date: 2004.12.06 
Time: 00:01:16 

Freeze Frame: 
Voltage: 12.30 V 
Mileage: 655350 km 
Count: 65535 
Clock: 255:255 

01316 - ABS Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100100 
Fault Priority: 5 
Fault Frequency: 1 
Reset counter: 87 
Time Indication: 0 
Date: 2012.09.18 
Time: 18:00:35 

Freeze Frame: 
Bin. Bits: 0000 
Mileage: 655350 km 
Count: 1809 
Clock: 18:32 


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Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 8E0-959-433-MAX.lbl 
Part No: 8E0 959 433 BT 
Component: Komfortgerát T7B 3132 
Coding: 11836 
Shop #: WSC 06335 
VCID: 840C01BD94B1E23885D 

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8E1959801F 
Component: Tõrsteuer.FS BRM 0305 

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 8E1959802E 
Component: Tõrsteuer.BF BRM 0205 

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 8E0959801A 
Component: Tõrsteuer.HL BRM 0205 

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 8E0959802A 
Component: Tõrsteuer.HR BRM 0205 

2 Faults Found: 
00962 - Alarm via. Tilt Sensor 
35-00 - - 
01574 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Right Rear 
35-00 - - 

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Address 55: Xenon Range Labels: 4F0-910-357.lbl 
 Part No SW: 4F0 910 357 C HW: 4F0 907 357 C 
Component: AFS 1 H01 0020 
Revision: 00000001 Serial number: 
Coding: 0000019 
Shop #: WSC 06335 000 00000 
VCID: 2648FB35914D70287B9 

Part No: 8E0 941 329 
Component: AFS-Modul links H02 0020 

Part No: 8E0 941 329 
Component: AFS-Modul rechtsH02 0020 

No fault code found. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Address 56: Radio Labels: 8E0-035-192-RNSE.lbl 
Part No SW: 8E0 035 192 E HW: 8E0 035 192 E 
Component: RNS-E US H54 0020 
Revision: 03S Serial number: AUZBZ7E1500610 
Coding: 0309137 
Shop #: WSC 06335 000 00000 
VCID: 2648FB35924D70287B9 

3 Faults Found: 
00532 - Supply Voltage B+ 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100010 
Fault Priority: 7 
Fault Frequency: 2 
Reset counter: 121 
Time Indication: 0 
Date: 2010.11.08 
Time: 18:46:27 

Freeze Frame: 
Voltage: 12.30 V 

00446 - Function Limitation due to Under-Voltage 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100010 
Fault Priority: 7 
Fault Frequency: 7 
Reset counter: 121 
Time Indication: 0 
Date: 2004.12.06 
Time: 00:01:16 

Freeze Frame: 
Voltage: 12.30 V 
Mileage: 655350 km 
Count: 65535 
Clock: 255:255 

01316 - ABS Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent 
Freeze Frame: 
Fault Status: 00100100 
Fault Priority: 5 
Fault Frequency: 1 
Reset counter: 87 
Time Indication: 0 
Date: 2012.09.18 
Time: 18:00:35 

Freeze Frame: 
Bin. Bits: 0000 
Mileage: 655350 km 
Count: 1809 
Clock: 18:32 


End --------------------------------------------------------------------- 



Also, MB 091, 092:


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

I'm no expert for sure but Audi S4 + rattle + misfire + high mileage = timing chain tensioner/guide  I heard the center chain goes first most of the time but I guess maybe not this time. I'd wait for more knowledgeable opinions but with the little I know I think you've already named that tune. 

I wonder why after all these years, VW/Audi still can not make a engine with a timing chain?


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Or variable timing adjuster?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Content was vacated by JACK :heart:


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Respectfully!
> 
> If you cant see that the lean reading and evap/air leak are related to the misfires, you shouldn't be working on this problem before ready to play timing chain.
> 
> ...


 Re-read the post, I checked all that  

Found an EVAP leak on the purge hose, between purge valve and fuel tank. No other vacuum leaks found. Compression test results are in the OP as well. 

In the end, was able to pull the valve cover and see that the plastic guide on the upper tensioner rail, bank 1, was completely missing, the chain was riding right on the metal. 

As it stands, the customer went back to the dealer in an attempt to get Audi to help him out somehow, as this is obviously a very expensive repair. If Audi doesn't do anything for him, he'll be back.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh wow, didn't even see it was you Brian. Hello  

Content was vacated by JACK :heart:


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

I considered the EVAP leak as a possibility for lean bank 2. I figured the ECU just didn't test bank 1 fuel trims due to misfires. Maybe I'm incorrect in that assumption? 

In person I could tell that was a dead miss, not a lean miss as is more common. My thinking is that the timing is in spec in blocks because the cam adjusters are working, but the chain has too much slack (I had both valvecovers off, there was measurable slack in bank 1, not so bank 2). 

Maybe there's something else going on, but I couldn't find it. I stopped as soon as I got a visual on the chain guide. The car is out of my hands now, I'll keep you guys posted when I hear how the story ends.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Content was vacated by JACK :heart:


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

I know it's been a long time, but I felt I should update this. I just spoke to this customer again.

Long story short, he took the car to a local dealership. They confirmed my diagnosis of a timing chain problem, and handed him an estimate for something like $14,000 

The car is STILL at the dealership, with the engine (allegedly) removed, as he continues to fight with Audi corporate for some type of warranty/goodwill coverage.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Its deeply disturbing that VW (Audi) still struggles with timing chain tensioners and guides in the 21 century. They still occasionally go pop on 1.4/1.8/2.0 TSI engines too. A few infant mortalities and the rest after 80,000 miles.

Do you remember how many miles on the S4 when it let go?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

In the auto-scan  120,490 miles.

VW/Audi isn't the only company that struggles with chain issues. Ford's 4.0 SOHC V6 is plagued with them as well, ever hear an Explorer with a rattly engine?  I also had a 2007 Tahoe (207k miles) come in that had blown the guides to pieces last year as well, although I think that one might have been a fluke.


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

Every time I try to explain someone that Chain engine is nothing but trouble and they said:
" but I do not need to spent lot of money for my T/belt repair every 80k". 
So here is the math for this car :
T/belt full kit with water pump including labor on V8 around $1500
Timing chin problem $14000 .

So what is the cheaper solution.

It is not just VW , every single Auto Company has problems with chain those days.
Mercedes has problem with 272 engines and there is only TSB on it. Well $3000 repair what was design by bad engineering ,customer has to pay for it.
I would never have Chain driven car .


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

jetta said:


> I would never have Chain driven car .


You might not have much choice soon. There aren't many companies left making belt engines anymore. Hyundai, Subaru, some Honda V6's, that's about it. VAG went to a chain on the 2.0T in 2010 or 2011.

I wouldn't say all manufacturers have problems with them either. I worked for BMW for a long time, never saw a timing chain problem. I work on a ton of Honda/Acura and Toyota products as well, never seen one of those with a chain problem. Ford's 4.6 SOHC V8, seen countless examples of those in taxi service with 300,000+ miles, no chain issues. 

It's cheaper to engineer a belt-driven engine than a chain motor too (pushrod being the exception, but that's a GM thing now, and they even have spring tensioners and plastic guides on the V8's now), but car companies care about one thing: Selling cars. They have to warranty it for 36k, 50k miles. What happens past that point, they care not. Customers hear that they don't have to deal with a timing belt maintenance, and they're more likely to buy. Simple as that.


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

No personal experience, but have always been interesting in getting a v8 s4 in the near future, most people say they took care of this issue with the b7 and up timing chain V8 engines. Is this true? 

To the one that brought up a customer more likely to get a car when they hear the timing chain will never have to be touched 

the ,272 engines, it was not the tensioners that would fail, it was a gear on the balance shaft that would wear early 








that does not look like fun either 


I am not a mechanic, but whenever i have either our 2.5 jetta, or 07 e320 diesel serviced, i am always watching the mechanic, and I have seen several older BMW v8 engines apart due to timing chain issues, both cases blamed on spotty oil change history and intervals by the first owner

i understand that the company has no legal obligation past the warranty period, unless there is a class action lawsuit, but its just sad how little they care after that


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