# ghetto charger



## HedG (Aug 29, 2003)

I’m pretty new to the idea of forced induction 
So someone with some knowledge please enlighten me if this setup would work and if not what’s wrong with it?
A fan setup into your intake, which is powered by your battery and can be turned off and on by a switch in your dash 
???


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (HedG)*

fans suck, they dont work at all...


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: ghetto charger (HedG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HedG* »_I’m pretty new to the idea of forced induction 
So someone with some knowledge please enlighten me if this setup would work and if not what’s wrong with it?
A fan setup into your intake, which is powered by your battery and can be turned off and on by a switch in your dash 
??? 


That would be fresh and innovative. I say go for it bro. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## HedG (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (nycvr6)*

I think the wiring itself would be pretty easy and since its powered off the battery I’m thinking it can spin pretty fast, my biggest concerns are the following
If this were to actually work would any changes have to be made to my ecu?
Could this cause any kind of damage towards my engine?
Oh yeah almost forgot how can someone measure the number of pounds of boost?


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## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (HedG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HedG* »_I think the wiring itself would be pretty easy and since its powered off the battery I’m thinking it can spin pretty fast, my biggest concerns are the following
If this were to actually work would any changes have to be made to my ecu?
Could this cause any kind of damage towards my engine?
Oh yeah almost forgot how can someone measure the number of pounds of boost?


You should get a 16volt battery for it and you'd need standalone and bigger injectors to handle all that extra air


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## PwrVdubGuy (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (the4ork)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_fans suck, they dont work at all...

Don't waste your money... i'd say little or no gain... Unless you can find a fan that really moves some air, to a point where psi > 1, let me know, you'd have something there, course, probably cost more than a turbo


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## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (PwrVdubGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PwrVdubGuy* »_
Don't waste your money... i'd say little or no gain... Unless you can find a fan that really moves some air, to a point where psi > 1, let me know, you'd have something there, course, probably cost more than a turbo









Dude didn't you see the one on e-bay! 15hp gain! Combine it with a tornado and some Zmax and you'll gain 50hp!


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## GodSquadMandrake (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: ghetto charger (skillton)*

It's already been done, check out the eRam:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/
It's a pretty good air intake, but I wouldn't really call it a supercharger.
I had the same idea myself like 2 days ago in this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1349281


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

What the hell is going on here? Just when you thought things couldnt get any lower, up pops these threads.....


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## GodSquadMandrake (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

Never mind boosted one, he's just mad because he got beat by a honda.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Huh?
Lemme guess..You really wanted a CRX but all your parents would buy you was a Jetta?
And considering I knew naturally aspirated, non nitroused Honda's back in the mid 90s that would whip ass on half this board's cars today, I would think that if your statement was true I would atleast have lots of company.


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## GodSquadMandrake (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

Apparently they make an electric supercharge that's really pretty good:
http://www.boosthead.com/home.php 
75 hp gain, not bad.


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: (GodSquadMandrake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GodSquadMandrake* »_Never mind boosted one, he's just mad because he got beat by a honda.

This was one of the dumbest things ive ever read on these forums, especially coming from someone who drives an 88 jetta. Truth of the matter is electric superchargers are a joke, consider yourself "had" for ever considering or researching them.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (GodSquadMandrake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GodSquadMandrake* »_Apparently they make an electric supercharge that's really pretty good:
http://www.boosthead.com/home.php 
75 hp gain, not bad.

Ooooh, $2200+another few hundred dollars in batteries and 24V chargers for a whopping 5.5psi of boost from a crap Roots compressor(Roots compressors the the LEAST efficient compressors available for forced induction). Sign me up.
And lets not go into how f'ed up that 8psi dyno graph looks.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (nycvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nycvr6* »_
This was one of the dumbest things ive ever read on these forums, especially coming from someone who drives an 88 jetta. Truth of the matter is electric superchargers are a joke, consider yourself "had" for ever considering or researching them. 

Actually, the high power axial compressor fans can produce from 0.5 to 1.0 psi at 350+ cfm, giving gains on the order of ~4-7%. The only other mod that beats that $ per hp ratio besides mechanical FI is a chip.








And no, the power necessary to drive them is not significant compared to the gains, as is an incredibly small fraction of the power gained from the chemical energy of the additional combusted fuel.
After running the numbers I actually decided to run one of these on my car ~4 years ago. I saw a consistent gain of about 8-12 whp datalogging acceleration with the unit removed and then the unit installed and running, multiple back to back runs on the same day on the same strip, backing up the theoretical gains.


_Modified by Marty at 5:47 PM 4-22-2004_


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (Marty)*

man what are you all smokin







can ya pass it this way







do yourself a favor keep the electric fans in that sodium lit room and buy a turbo


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (not SoQuick)*

Very insightful.


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (HedG)*

HedG, you need to think this through a little more. Why do you want it on a switch? That'd be like having a switch on your high performance exhaust so you could switch it to a 1" tube. Do you only kind of want power? Plus, when it's not turned on, what do you think it will do? Just sit there and block airflow. Lastly, there are no fans designed to spin fast enough to actually do much of anything. Well, I'm sure there are some out there, but not within your grasp. Because of this, with repeated use the blades will form stress cracks and break. Then your engine will eat them and die.
That Thomas Knight supercharger thing is the biggest piece o' ***** I've ever seen. While the bilge pumps are crappy, at least you can tell those ads are full of it. And they don't charge $2,000. You can buy a full ATP turbo kit for that. And it doesn't weigh 92lbs. And you don't have to find room for 4+ batteries that are MIL-SPEC and not included. And the best parts? It runs for more than 15sec and puts out considerably more than 25hp.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sad_rocc* »_HedG, you need to think this through a little more. Why do you want it on a switch? That'd be like having a switch on your high performance exhaust so you could switch it to a 1" tube. Do you only kind of want power? Plus, when it's not turned on, what do you think it will do? Just sit there and block airflow. Lastly, there are no fans designed to spin fast enough to actually do much of anything. Well, I'm sure there are some out there, but not within your grasp. Because of this, with repeated use the blades will form stress cracks and break. Then your engine will eat them and die.


You want it on a switch just like you want nitrous on a switch. If you're at 50% throttle and you want to go faster, go to 60% throttle. Faster still? How about 70% throttle... all the way up to 100% throttle. Faster still? Turn the fan on.
The fan itself that I used was fairly large in diameter, and when turned off had a very low blockage ratio. I did runs with the fan off but in the intake and didn't see any difference. It's the equivalent of constricting down from a 3" diameter pipe down to about a 2.5" diameter pipe (not a big deal for a NA car).
Again, the fans that actually CAN do this are for aircraft cooling, spin about 50,000 RPM, can put out 0.5-1.0 psi, and can do so at 350+ cfm. Again, if you don't know what you're talking about, then....
It's in one ear and out the other around here. Anybody care to present a valid argument for why these things can't work? "Uh huh huh, fans suck dood, get a turbo, huh huhuh."


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## GodSquadMandrake (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*

Yeah i'll admit the $300 eRam isn't a bad deal. It's basically like getting a 3" performance air intake that flows REALLY well.


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
You want it on a switch just like you want nitrous on a switch. If you're at 50% throttle and you want to go faster, go to 60% throttle. Faster still? How about 70% throttle... all the way up to 100% throttle. Faster still? Turn the fan on.
The fan itself that I used was fairly large in diameter, and when turned off had a very low blockage ratio. I did runs with the fan off but in the intake and didn't see any difference. It's the equivalent of constricting down from a 3" diameter pipe down to about a 2.5" diameter pipe (not a big deal for a NA car).
Again, the fans that actually CAN do this are for aircraft cooling, spin about 50,000 RPM, can put out 0.5-1.0 psi, and can do so at 350+ cfm. Again, if you don't know what you're talking about, then....
It's in one ear and out the other around here. Anybody care to present a valid argument for why these things can't work? "Uh huh huh, fans suck dood, get a turbo, huh huhuh."

No, NO2 is on a switch because if it wasn't, your engine would explode. Nobody is saying it flat out won't work, just that it makes no real sense. Way to go on the first paragraph, you just described something called acceleration. If you have the pedal down halfway and you want to go faster, the usual way to go about it is to press more.







If you want to make a Pinto go a little faster at full throttle, sure do it your way. If you want to make that Pinto hit 65mph in less than 45sec, you put a turbo on it.
What do those aircraft fans run? Can you pick them up just about anywhere? I tried 4 different searches on ebay and came up with zip. What happens when you let off the throttle? Doesn't the air slam back into the fan?
This HedG guy seemed clueless and I got the impression he was looking for a $25 afternoon mod to add a little something. If you do your homework, you can get your car turbo'd for about $200 and an afternoon of time (assuming it's on an A1). You can push a whole lot more than 1psi this way and you get a HP boost at any % throttle.


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## PhOO (May 23, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (GodSquadMandrake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GodSquadMandrake* »_Yeah i'll admit the $300 eRam isn't a bad deal. It's basically like getting a 3" performance air intake that flows REALLY well. 

$300 is almost a set of new DSR cams or you could even score a set of used ones for that much. that will give you 10hp


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sad_rocc* »_
If you want to make a Pinto go a little faster at full throttle, sure do it your way. If you want to make that Pinto hit 65mph in less than 45sec, you put a turbo on it.


According to what you just said, the first mod to any car should be a turbo. Don't waste your money on a chip or an exhaust or anything like that, those will only make you a little faster. 
I was only pointing out that all of the skeptics on this thread have no idea what they're talking about, and are just jumping on the fan hater bandwagon. Then again, VWvortex wouldn't be VWvortex without you guys!


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
According to what you just said, the first mod to any car should be a turbo. Don't waste your money on a chip or an exhaust or anything like that, those will only make you a little faster. 
I was only pointing out that all of the skeptics on this thread have no idea what they're talking about, and are just jumping on the fan hater bandwagon. Then again, VWvortex wouldn't be VWvortex without you guys!

whoa whoa whoa, back that up a little bit...dont twist his statement all around. and YOU get to be the one to point out how all us skeptics have no idea what we are talking about?? just because you had one on your car dosent mean we are all idiots for not having one. can you provide any figures as to how much current one of these 1psi aircraft fans pull?? and assuming they are $300, cams can be had for that...and guess what, i dont need a toggle switch for my cams, nor do they draw an assload of current. there was someone on here not too long ago telling everyone we are all dumb for not putting zmax or slick 50 or whatever in our engines...dont be _that_ guy


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_
whoa whoa whoa, back that up a little bit...dont twist his statement all around. and YOU get to be the one to point out how all us skeptics have no idea what we are talking about?? just because you had one on your car dosent mean we are all idiots for not having one. can you provide any figures as to how much current one of these 1psi aircraft fans pull?? and assuming they are $300, cams can be had for that...and guess what, i dont need a toggle switch for my cams, nor do they draw an assload of current. there was someone on here not too long ago telling everyone we are all dumb for not putting zmax or slick 50 or whatever in our engines...dont be _that_ guy

Ignorance, not idiocy. And I could care less if anybody has one. There are a lot of BS "fan" contraptions out there that do nothing. And then there are those that can do something. But to say it is all crap and can not work simply because it is a fan is ignorant.
I simply presented physically HOW they can work, and then gave evidence that it DID work on my car. You have to be either blind or religious to take that line of reasoning, throw it out the window, and stand by the "all fans don't werk dood" mentality.
And to address your specific questions... Who cares about a toggle switch? I mounted the switch on a bracket I made at the throttle body, so at full throttle it automatically turned on. It sucked about 50 amps when running. I'll do the math for you... 50 amps at 12 volts at a 50% power conversion efficiency is about 1.6 hp. So? That current comes straight from the battery, it's not like the alternator takes more power to drive while the fan is running. 
The original thread post asked if such a thing could work. Answer: yes. Can you stick ANY fan in your intake and produce results? No.


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## rossmc1 (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*

You say in this statement that you tried runs with the fan on,then runs with the fan off but still fitted,and there was no difference,is that not what everyone said,that they dont work
I think you and the other guy,must be the owners of that site selling the electric supercahrger,i thought everyone was overreacting,but checkout it out,and i've never seen so much cack,after $2000 and batteries,that wont be cheap(or they include them)(or are you's maybe the battery suppliers)after all that and fitting,you need to take batteries back out and recharge them every day or so
And can you tell me if you needed to get a bit more power out the e/sc,do you just add another battery


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## SleepyTT (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (rossmc1)*

If i ever use a decent Electric Supercharger. Not from eBay which is the trashy versions. I'd recommend getting a 2nd alternator cuz you'd eat batterys like nothing.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (rossmc1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rossmc1* »_You say in this statement that you tried runs with the fan on,then runs with the fan off but still fitted,and there was no difference,is that not what everyone said,that they dont work
I think you and the other guy,must be the owners of that site selling the electric supercahrger,i thought everyone was overreacting,but checkout it out,and i've never seen so much cack,after $2000 and batteries,that wont be cheap(or they include them)(or are you's maybe the battery suppliers)after all that and fitting,you need to take batteries back out and recharge them every day or so
And can you tell me if you needed to get a bit more power out the e/sc,do you just add another battery









After what I think is a successful decoding of what you tried to say, I suggest you go back and re-read the posts. I stated that the power between runs with the fan off and mounted in the intake were the same as with no fan mounted in the intake, indicating that there were no losses from the low blockage ratio.

_Quote, originally posted by *Sleepy007* »_If i ever use a decent Electric Supercharger. Not from eBay which is the trashy versions. I'd recommend getting a 2nd alternator cuz you'd eat batterys like nothing.

Your stock alternator can already put out more than the current draw of the fan, not that drawing 50 amps from your battery for short bursts every now and then would have any noticeable effect on your battery life.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*

do you have any dyno graphs to show us that prove your alleged gains? i honestly think that the only reason you are defending this silly idea is because you got suckered into doing it, and anything you do _must_ be a good idea... call me ignorant all you want, but you dont see me with a stupid fan in my intake, jackass.


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## Impact_Wrench (Nov 22, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (adidas_mc)*

C'mon! its not like these things don't work, they're just not very efficient.
minimal gains for not-so minimal money!








like I said in the "revolutionary new ideas" thread, just wait till roomtemp-superconductors are more common, then you'll see electric chargers that are worth installing, but until then they simply don't make enough power for most people to bother with.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_call me ignorant all you want, but you dont see me with a stupid fan in my intake, jackass.









Wow, that is quite the outstanding argument! The Kansas school system should be proud.
Better than dyno data, I had actually acceleration data of my car on the street through VAG-COM.
Again, nobody can seem to present any argument why a fan that can produce ~1 psi of pressure at flowrates exceeding what the VR6 can suck at redline can't produce the gains that one would expect from 1 psi of boost, namely ~ 1/14.7 = 7%. But they can sure say FAns suCk dooD, TeRBos RuLeZ all day long.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
.
Again, nobody can seem to present any argument why a fan that can produce ~1 psi of pressure at flowrates exceeding what the VR6 can suck at redline can't produce the gains that one would expect from 1 psi of boost, namely ~ 1/14.7 = 7%. But they can sure say FAns suCk dooD, TeRBos RuLeZ all day long.

you still havent presented an argument for why anyone would want to do _this_, rather than spend their money a little more wisely. no one is disputing the fact that your fan blows...but when weighed against other, similarly priced options, my argument becomes clear. a properly executed ram-air system could just as easily provide the on-street gains you claim, and for a fraction of the cost. of course you would have to be traveling with some speed, but thats not a very big compromise in my opinion. again, noone has tried to argue against the volume or pressure your fan can move, but people are arguing against this being a worthwhile modification. and it sure hurts my feelings when people with fans in their intakes try to insult me







do you run a boost gauge by the way? and a blow off valve? or do you just have the cd with all the whoooshing and pssst sounds of a real boosted car?










_Modified by adidas_mc at 8:39 PM 4-26-2004_


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Marty is just one of those guys who apparantly does stuff to prove it can be done. Like the guy with the 13 second Yugo, and the late Gus with the 12 second Dodge Caravan. 
Marty, why is it impossible for someone to beleive you made a whopping 1psi of boost, and still say a fan sucks, even yours? 300$ for a pound of boost, even negating the 50A draw, is a stupid waste of money IMHO, as well as everyone but your's.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_ do you run a boost gauge by the way? and a blow off valve? or do you just have the cd with all the whoooshing and pssst sounds of a real boosted car?









_Modified by adidas_mc at 8:39 PM 4-26-2004_

The difference between Marty and yourself is both education and intelligence. Some people (sheep) try what is proven and others attempt to do what those other sheep say cannot be done. Where would we be without people trying new things? Oh, and I think his vr6t has both a boost gauge and BOV.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_
you still havent presented an argument for why anyone would want to do _this_, rather than spend their money a little more wisely. no one is disputing the fact that your fan blows...but when weighed against other, similarly priced options, my argument becomes clear. a properly executed ram-air system could just as easily provide the on-street gains you claim, and for a fraction of the cost. of course you would have to be traveling with some speed, but thats not a very big compromise in my opinion. again, noone has tried to argue against the volume or pressure your fan can move, but people are arguing against this being a worthwhile modification. and it sure hurts my feelings when people with fans in their intakes try to insult me







do you run a boost gauge by the way? and a blow off valve? or do you just have the cd with all the whoooshing and pssst sounds of a real boosted car?









_Modified by adidas_mc at 8:39 PM 4-26-2004_

Your agument becomes clear? That's where it loses everything. Name a better hp/$ mod besides a chip or mechanical FI.
Oh wait, you like ram air? That's okay? The fan is nothing bug a mechanical "ram air" system, except to achieve 1 psi of "boost" via ram air you would have to be going *234 mph*.








I still haven't heard a valid argument yet, other than "my friends who don't know sh!t, much like myself, would make fun of me."


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BoostedOne* »_Marty, why is it impossible for someone to beleive you made a whopping 1psi of boost, and still say a fan sucks, even yours? 300$ for a pound of boost, even negating the 50A draw, is a stupid waste of money IMHO, as well as everyone but your's.


Does nobody have the balls to say it? Just admit that the sh!t CAN work, and obviously certain modes DO work, but think it's "stupid" for your own reasons or "group think" mentality and therefore have to talk your trash. 
But, IMO, running a fan looks a lot less ridiculous than your naive reasoning, so I'd keep it to yourself unless you have something intelligent to add. "It sucks, dood." "Why?" "I dunno dood, but it sucks. Huhh huhhuhuh."


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_ "It sucks, dood." "Why?" "I dunno dood, but it sucks. Huhh huhhuhuh."

you said "sucks". uh huuhh uhhhu huhuh


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Does nobody have the balls to say it? Just admit that the sh!t CAN work, and obviously certain modes DO work, but think it's "stupid" for your own reasons or "group think" mentality and therefore have to talk your trash. 
But, IMO, running a fan looks a lot less ridiculous than your naive reasoning, so I'd keep it to yourself unless you have something intelligent to add. "It sucks, dood." "Why?" "I dunno dood, but it sucks. Huhh huhhuhuh."

you apparently lack the reading skills to see that several people, including myself, have agreed that your fan CAN work. do we care? no. do we want one? no. stop trying to pretend you are better than everyone else just because everyone thinks your idea is stupid. i think it is hilarious that you claim your fan to provide whopping bang for the buck. how about cams, pulleys, flywheel, nitrous, exhaust etc...FOR THE LAST TIME...WE ARENT SAYING YOUR FAN CANT PUSH 1PSI. We arent saying you cant produce boost with an electric fan. what we are questioning is the fact that you claim this to be a worthwhile modification. you must think this is the Fan Induction forum.
"Wow, that is quite the outstanding argument! The Kansas school system should be proud.
Better than dyno data, I had actually acceleration data of my car on the street through VAG-COM.
Again, nobody can seem to present any argument why a fan that can produce ~1 psi of pressure at flowrates exceeding what the VR6 can suck at redline can't produce the gains that one would expect from 1 psi of boost, namely ~ 1/14.7 = 7%. But they can sure say FAns suCk dooD, TeRBos RuLeZ all day long."
and if you want to compare your weak a$$ fan to a turbo...i know a few guys with a $450 junkyard 'TeRBo' setup that would walk you all day, and make you wish you never wasted your hard earned money on an electric supercharger. plus they would be able to run their big stereo and cheeseball neon lights just to make you feel worse, since their 'TeRBo' doesnt draw current.










_Modified by adidas_mc at 7:43 PM 5-2-2004_


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*

I would just like to say that electric superchargers are practically on out doorstep. At my workplace, a government defense contractor we have recently developed a 60,000 rpm oil free foil bearing motor. It has very low current draw. It could easily be hooked up to a volute and wheel and would make a nasty SC. Think about it, constantly variable boost, 20 psi at idle, sure 10 psi at 6000rpm sure, anything you want.
Anyone can make a elecrtic SC if they have a capable motor. Ours uses an E+A armature from switzerland, and the rest is scratch built. 
The motor is 35kw @ 60k It is also water cooled. It is powered by a Spindel "Master" motor controller right now but there are reasonable size controllers available.
Axial fans = high flow
Cent. Fans = high pressure ratios.
That 3 motor roots thing looks like a POS. The axial fans are not good for any serious FI effort either. 
We also make totally oil free turbos, and NONE OF IT IS FOR SALE.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

now thats innovative... not for sale, huh? what kind of applications are these made for? 60000 rpm with no load? how much load do you think an impeller that is grabbing 10-20psi of air will put on this motor? i would think its quite a bit.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_
how about cams, pulleys, flywheel, nitrous, exhaust etc...FOR THE LAST TIME...WE ARENT SAYING YOUR FAN CANT PUSH 1PSI. We arent saying you can produce boost with an electric fan. what we are questioning is the fact that you claim this to be a worthwhile modification.

Again, why don't you define what a "worthwhile modification" is? Is it one that compliments other modifications? Is it one with a good hp/$ ratio? What is it exactly? Clearly it must be something odd because pullies, lightened flywheels, and exhausts each cost at least as much as the fan, yet produce far less power, and generally produce just a peak gain (except for the underdrive pulley, which actually gives a uniform torque increase, small, but uniform). Boosting 1 psi over the entire RPM range basically lifts your entire torque curve up by 1/14.7 = 7%.
So if your definition of a worthwhile mod is peak hp/$, then it's one of the most worthwhile by far. If it is the TOTAL increase in power UNDER the entire curve per $, then it rivals even a chip.
Please, enlighten me as to what a "worthwhile mod" is exactly.
And you look retarded with all of your turbo comments pointed at me. To answer your question, yes, my turbo VR6 does have a BOV and a boost gauge, and an EGT gauge and a wideband and.... etc etc, check the sig.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*

you run the fan with the turbo? good job.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
every mod i listed can help throughout the rev range (save for the cams, but that can be disputed), and you know it. they are also all proven modifications. if this is such a great idea, why hasnt it spread like the plauge? you are the only person i know of who actually has one of these, so who knows...you could be promoting one of the "best kept secret" power-adders...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_you run the fan with the turbo? good job.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
every mod i listed can help throughout the rev range (save for the cams, but that can be disputed), and you know it. they are also all proven modifications. if this is such a great idea, why hasnt it spread like the plauge? you are the only person i know of who actually has one of these, so who knows...you could be promoting one of the "best kept secret" power-adders...









So let me get this straight... your current definition of a "worthwhile modification" is one that everybody else has? In that case obviously then obviously it is not worthwhile.








And no, I don't run the axial flow compressor ("fan") with the turbo for two primary reasons: 1) If I want 1 more psi of boost, I'll set it in the boost controller, and 2) I now far outflow the fan's CFM rating.


----------



## Myron (Apr 18, 2000)

*Re: (Marty)*

Marty,
I would have thought you would have learned by now. You can lead a horse (Vortex member) to water (facts).... I will say this for you though, you are tenacious


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (Myron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Myron* »_Marty,
I would have thought you would have learned by now. You can lead a horse (Vortex member) to water (facts).... I will say this for you though, you are tenacious









Tell me about it...








In case anybody's curious, this is the unit I ran: http://www.electricsupercharger.com/


----------



## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
So let me get this straight... your current definition of a "worthwhile modification" is one that everybody else has? In that case obviously then obviously it is not worthwhile.









Whatever Marty..
The reason that "everybody else" has turbo's or superchargers is because the sh*t WORKS. If electric fans in the airtract was that great of an idea, why aren't people doing it hand over fist? Are you so egotistic to think you are the only one who considered doing it? No, you are just one of the few that actually carried it out.
You know, I would have carried my side of this conversation the exact same if this was 10 years ago, and we were on a general tech board with V8 guys. For ages I had to listen to everyone laugh at my car because it was running a "pint size engine that I should just swap out for a V8"(had a pinto 2.3 turbo).
The reason I run turbo is because they work, not because they are popular, not because it makes me in with the crowd, not because I give two ****s what you or anyone else thinks. 
If you haven't been in the game long enough to remember when 4cyl turbos were not cool but were generally considered lame, you need to rethink the reasoning behind what you THINK is the reason people who have been are saying what they are saying.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
So let me get this straight... your current definition of a "worthwhile modification" is one that everybody else has? In that case obviously then obviously it is not worthwhile.










maybe that makes sense to you, but no you didnt get it straight...where did i say a worthwhile mod was one everyone else has? does that mean that worthwhile mods to you are only the ones that noone has, since you are so bent on opposing any statement i make?
you were questioning the benefits of the common modifications i listed, and you were wrong. are you too good to change your exhaust because everyone else already did it, and you need to be more innovative than that? for the money spent on your _axial flow compressor_, you could have done quite a few other things (see previous posts), that in my opinion, would be more worthwhile...yield more gain per dollar. not that you dont already have a bunch of bolt-ons on your engine... i mean, look at the title of this thread..."ghetto charger". This obviously inst 'ghetto' to you, but some people consider putting junkyard parts on a car "ghetto". and i know of half a dozen VWs running around town with junkyard turbo setups that cost less than $800, and regularly murder high dollar sports cars at the track. so saying that this fan has nearly the highest gain per dollar you know of is retarded. and stop trying to twist my statements around, ****.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*

Again, more meaningless empty posts that say nothing from you guys. This is a waste of time.
The fact remains that the thing works, and is one of the best hp/$ mods out there (better than an exhaust or pullies or flywheel, and right there with cams and a chip). You guys are unable to produce any non-trivial argument to dispute that.
The masses think a Turn2 lightned crank pulley is a worthwhile mod and can "feel" the power increase. I rest my case.


----------



## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_Again, more meaningless empty posts that say nothing from you guys. This is a waste of time.
The fact remains that the thing works, and is one of the best hp/$ mods out there (better than an exhaust or pullies or flywheel, and right there with cams and a chip). You guys are unable to produce any non-trivial argument to dispute that.
The masses think a Turn2 lightned crank pulley is a worthwhile mod and can "feel" the power increase. I rest my case.

About time(you rest your case).
I will go on being ignorant, with my sub 1000 dollar setup that offers greater than a 100% increase in power. You can go on being knowledgable, wordly, etc with your 300, loosely validated 7% increase(on an 8v 4 cylinder thats what, a whopping 5-7hp at the tires?)
I for the record never said a lightened flywheel or crank pulley is the best mod per dollar. But one thing you have to consider is depending on what mod level you are at, you will see different mods being worthwhile. A lightened flywheel is a pretty poor mod for someone with a stock car, but for someone who already has headwork, cam(s), exhaust, etc, it is very worthwhile.
And, there was a program on Speedvision the other night where they put a ligthened flywheel into an Acura and did see a HP increase at the tires because of less driveline losses. I think they showed like 4 or 5hp on a 200HP to the tires car.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BoostedOne* »_
About time(you rest your case).
I will go on being ignorant, with my sub 1000 dollar setup that offers greater than a 100% increase in power. You can go on being knowledgable, wordly, etc with your 300, loosely validated 7% increase(on an 8v 4 cylinder thats what, a whopping 5-7hp at the tires?)


WORD! 
thats what ive been trying to tell this idiot all along, though the mods i listed were not listed as "best hp/$"...more of _better_ bang for the buck than a fan. (flywheel is 1/2 the price of his fan, yet gained hp @ the wheels is about the same). im glad someone is backing me up against fan-boy...some people just dont know how to accept being wrong.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adidas_mc* »_
WORD! 
thats what ive been trying to tell this idiot all along, though the mods i listed were not listed as "best hp/$"...more of _better_ bang for the buck than a fan. (flywheel is 1/2 the price of his fan, yet gained hp @ the wheels is about the same). im glad someone is backing me up against fan-boy...some people just dont know how to accept being wrong.









So the mods you listed weren't the "best hp/$", but WERE the best "bang for the buck" eh? LOL.







Well put.
Why don't you go ahead and attempt to explain exactly what I'm wrong about that I can't seem to accept. I'm perfectly willing to accept it, just present your argument. The funny part is, it is you who can't seem to step back, admit that they don't know what they're talking about, and learn something. And what's even funnier is that you seem to have no idea.
In one last futile attempt to edumacate you a bit, I'll go in to more detail on the lightened flywheel since you seem to like it so much. Before we get started, note that the lightened flywheel itself costs about 2/3 that of the axial compressor. But what are you going to do, leave it on your desk? The average joe then has to pay to have the trans dropped and the flywheel swapped in, costing more than the flywheel itself.
But wait, the ignorance doesn't stop there. A lightened flywheel doesn't put out nearly the gains of the compressor. A lightened flywheel "increases hp" to the wheels by eliminating mass that would otherwise take some fraction of the motor's torque output to accelerate along with the rest of the car. No magic there. The amount of power "gained" is exactly proportional to how quickly the motor is accelerating (so if the motor is not accelerating, that is, you're at constant RPM, a lightened flywheel will do nothing). This is analgous to the fact that the weight of your car has no impact on your top speed. Given that the gains comes directly from engine accelerating, your gains are actually a percentage increase across the entire rev range, but that percentage is different in every gear (your motor revs more quickly in 1st than 2nd, 2nd than 3rd, etc etc). That's fine and dandy, but exactly how much power does a lightened flywheel free up? Luckily it's just a simple rotating mass, so decrease in torque needed to accelerate the lighter pulley versus the heavier pulley is straightforward to calculate, really needing nothing more than high school level physics (well, maybe college level in Kansas, I think they took physics out of the high school curriculum to teach creationism, didn't then?







) Anyhow, I'll leave the derivation of the equation governing the gains from a lightened flywheel as an exercise.







The result is:
% power increase in a specific gear = 
-1/2 * dm_flywheel / M_car * ( n_fd * n_gear * D_flywheel / D_tire )^2
dm_flywheel = change in flywheel mass (a negative number)
M_car = mass of the car
n_fd = final drive ratio
n_gear = gear ratio of interest
D_flywheel = flywheel diameter
D_tire = tire diameter
What's the result? You may be surprised. Why do some dyno show more gains? Most gains are well within variability from different runs. In addition, if you understand where the gains are coming from, it's clear that the motor accelerates at a different rate on the dyno than on the street, so even if one could get the true gains from a perfect dyno, they would only be valid for the engine accelerations seen on the dyno (which would not be the same as on the street in any gear).
In case anybody is actually interested and seeks the truth about things like this, I wrote up a simple derivation of this equation here, and plugged in some numbers for the Turn2 Crank Pulley (same type of gains as from a lightened flywheel): http://www.stanford.edu/~mpg/lightened_components/lightened_components.html


_Modified by Marty at 1:53 AM 4-30-2004_


----------



## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Why don't you go ahead and attempt to explain exactly what I'm wrong about that I can't seem to accept. I'm perfectly willing to accept it, just present your argument. The funny part is, it is you who can't seem to step back, admit that they don't know what they're talking about, and learn something. And what's even funnier is that you seem to have no idea.


What is it we stand to learn exactly? You already posted about a *possible* 7% HP gain(on a stock motor). I already said it could help. The only thing that is being disagreed on is if it is worth the cost.


_Quote »_
In one last futile attempt to edumacate you a bit, I'll go in to more detail on the lightened flywheel since you seem to like it so much. Before we get started, note that the lightened flywheel itself costs about 2/3 that of the axial compressor. But what are you going to do, leave it on your desk? The average joe then has to pay to have the trans dropped and the flywheel swapped in, costing more than the flywheel itself.

I guess I see your target market. People who are too lazy or not smart enough to do any work on their cars themselves. 

_Quote »_
But wait, the ignorance doesn't stop there. A lightened flywheel doesn't put out nearly the gains of the compressor. A lightened flywheel "increases hp" to the wheels by eliminating mass that would otherwise take some fraction of the motor's torque output to accelerate along with the rest of the car. No magic there. 


Wow, this sounds like a "mee too" post.

_Quote »_

_Bunch of schoolboy theory deleted_
What's the result? You may be surprised. Why do some dyno show more gains? Most gains are well within variability from different runs. In addition, if you understand where the gains are coming from, it's clear that the motor accelerates at a different rate on the dyno than on the street, so even if one could get the true gains from a perfect dyno, they would only be valid for the engine accelerations seen on the dyno (which would not be the same as on the street in any gear).


And what kind of acceleration rates have you seen on a dyno? All of the dyno pulls I have seen have the car accelerating at very low rates, due to the engine being with the trans in its 1:1 gear ratio. If you aren't around dynos very much a 400HP car looks weak and like it would get wasted by a 150HP car they turn the rollers so slowly. A 5 speed car on the street accelerates through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear much faster than it does on a dyno, so therefore the seen benefit from a lightened flywheel would be greater on the street than it would be on the dyno, no?
And the show I watched also put on large brakes (earlier than the flyweel) and showed a FWHP drop. So it wasnt like they were trying to cover up stuff.

_Quote »_
In case anybody is actually interested and seeks the truth about things like this,

In order to be considered truth, there has to be validation of theoretical result. You show nothing but some theory.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BoostedOne* »_
What is it we stand to learn exactly? You already posted about a *possible* 7% HP gain(on a stock motor). I already said it could help. The only thing that is being disagreed on is if it is worth the cost.


And again, you avoid reasoning as to why it is not worth the cost. If someone thinks any of the standard bolt-ons for a NA car are "worth the cost", then certainly the compressor is worth the cost. Don't you agree?


_Quote »_
I guess I see your target market. People who are too lazy or not smart enough to do any work on their cars themselves. 


Right... I guess some people's time is worth more than the shop rate.


_Quote »_
And what kind of acceleration rates have you seen on a dyno? All of the dyno pulls I have seen have the car accelerating at very low rates, due to the engine being with the trans in its 1:1 gear ratio. If you aren't around dynos very much a 400HP car looks weak and like it would get wasted by a 150HP car they turn the rollers so slowly. A 5 speed car on the street accelerates through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear much faster than it does on a dyno, so therefore the seen benefit from a lightened flywheel would be greater on the street than it would be on the dyno, no?


Correct, the actual gains would be higher on the street in the lower gears than on the dyno. The question is how accurately the dyno can show gains from run to run. As I said, there is no magic with the flywheel, or big brakes for that matter. If I told you I removed 10 pounds from my car yet my quarter mile dropped by 5%, would you believe me? Maybe my quarter mile did drop by 5% from my last run to the current run, but it certainly wouldn't have been from the 10 pound drop.

_Quote »_
In order to be considered truth, there has to be validation of theoretical result. You show nothing but some theory.


Validation? This isn't some new-age wacko theory. This is just simple physics. If I put twice the force on a mass, does it accelerate at twice the rate? But my dyno plot shows that it actually accelerates at four times the rate. Obviously the dyno must be correct, because it's a dyno, and dynos are perfect.


----------



## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*

marty-
i understand your point, but trying to pick apart every post i make







... 

Quote, originally posted by adidas_mc » 
WORD! 
thats what ive been trying to tell this idiot all along, though the mods i listed were not listed as "best hp/$"...more of better bang for the buck than a fan. (flywheel is 1/2 the price of his fan, yet gained hp @ the wheels is about the same). im glad someone is backing me up against fan-boy...some people just dont know how to accept being wrong. 

So the mods you listed weren't the "best hp/$", but WERE the best "bang for the buck" eh? LOL. Well put."

can you read? i said _better than your fan_. and for the record, i have a degree in physics...and no, creationism is not taught in kansas...neither is evolution, however physics is. do you happen to know what the International Baccalaureate program is? well that is the high school curriculum i took. look it up.









and you keep challenging us to come up with a valid argument...yet we already have..several times. you, my friend, are the only one i have ever seen (other than vendors of fans, who claim upwards of 20hp increase







) who has *claimed* a substantial increase in output from a fan. not that i dont belive you, in fact, im sure you did see some gains, however you still havent told us what the total cost of your eram setup was...then compare that figure/gain to other modifications' figure/gain. keep in mind your first claim was that your fan was THE BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK OTHER THAN A CHIP OR MECH FI...








and i think im done arguing about a fan. bottom line is i wont put one on my car until the technology is available to do so in a much more efficient way. for now, you have to pull more than 800watts







to get your measley <1psi. 
but no hard feelings marty, as you seem to be able to agrue the sh!t out of your points, and you seem to be happy with your fans end result...so i guess i should give you props for doing something most people wouldnt want to.










_Modified by adidas_mc at 12:35 PM 4-30-2004_


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*



adidas_mc said:


> marty-
> and you keep challenging us to come up with a valid argument...yet we already have..several times.
> _Quote »_
> Where arese valid arguments? You refuse to define exactly what a "worthwhile mod" is or what "best bang for the buck" means, yet you continue to throw them around as labels and bases for your argument.
> ...


----------



## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
And again, you avoid reasoning as to why it is not worth the cost. If someone thinks any of the standard bolt-ons for a NA car are "worth the cost", then certainly the compressor is worth the cost. Don't you agree?


First off, I am having a tough time referring to your fan as a "compressor". Technically it is, but it is a very very POOR compressor. Kinda like taking a 10 dollar box fan from WalMart, putting a plenum on the outlet and hooking it to an airline and calling that a compressor too. Anyone other than an engineer trying to glorify the system will look at you like you're on something for callin it a compressor.
Anyhow..back to the subject...No, I cant say that it is worth the cost. If we are talking 4 cylinder cars, you are talking about a claimed 7hp at the wheels, furthermore, the benefit will drop off at higher RPM, as the volumetric flow rate of the engine increases. Sadly, our 4 cylinders are poor performers at low RPM, and sacrificing high RPM power(where the engine finally starts moving air) for low RPM performance is a bad way to go. Similarly, dumping your budget into something that is going to boost low end and not do much for top end is about the same thing.


_Quote »_
Right... I guess some people's time is worth more than the shop rate.


Oh, so now its not people that HAVE to pay to install the flywheel, but just people who make more than 50-75 dollars an hour? You said the average Joe would have to pay to install the flywheel. The average Joe that pays to get the stuff done as a luxury instead of out of necessity probably has the money to do it right in the first place. 
How much to install your "axial flow compressor"? Considering it would take just as long to do a NICE installation. I mean all wrapped up, properly fused, no half ass buttsplice terminals or scotch locks, no exposed/free running wiring, no cheesy looking toggle switch in the dash, etc. I would be willing to bet it takes every bit of the nominally 3 hours to R&R a flywheel(since as you are saying its about having the free time to yourself, not the difficulty of the job that is the difference).
.
_Quote »_
Correct, the actual gains would be higher on the street in the lower gears than on the dyno. The question is how accurately the dyno can show gains from run to run. As I said, there is no magic with the flywheel, or big brakes for that matter. If I told you I removed 10 pounds from my car yet my quarter mile dropped by 5%, would you believe me? Maybe my quarter mile did drop by 5% from my last run to the current run, but it certainly wouldn't have been from the 10 pound drop.
.

So dyno runs and track times are inconclusive, but an output from a VAG-Com isn't? Inform me how this is, as information seen by vag-com would be more suspect than back to back times at the track.
.
_Quote »_
Validation? This isn't some new-age wacko theory. This is just simple physics. If I put twice the force on a mass, does it accelerate at twice the rate? But my dyno plot shows that it actually accelerates at four times the rate. Obviously the dyno must be correct, because it's a dyno, and dynos are perfect.

Thats the problem with simple physics. If we want to talk simple physics, should I inform you how your simple Physics I and II formulas will show that there is no advantage to running larger tires for traction(F=uN)? That F=ma and F=mv^^2 dont help figure anything automotive because of wind resistance? I do know the reasons why these formulas are not entirely accurate, but if you wanted you could sit here and tell me that they are all perfectly valid because its simple physics. How can you prove to me that your formula does not fall apart or is overly simple when compared to the real world? Thats where the verification/validation comes in.
Cya. Gotta get back to my engineering JOB.
Have fun in class.


----------



## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Oh wait, you like ram air? That's okay? The fan is nothing bug a mechanical "ram air" system, except to achieve 1 psi of "boost" via ram air you would have to be going *234 mph*.

Ram air is not based upon the pressure you feel against your hand when you stick it out the window. You know this. Secondly, ram air is not based upon compression of air in a nozzle due to velocity effects. Ram air is a form of supercharging that relies on the reflected rarefaction and compression waves along the intake runners created when the valves are opened and closed. Jag had a V12 that would get 110% volumetric efficiency (at max at the tuned RPM) due to ram air. The pressure wave speed is dependant on temperature, while the timing of wave fronts for harmonic oscillation is based upon valve opening period and therefore RPM, so the ram air effect and VE gains will vary thru the RPM band. Read "The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems" (a much better book than "Maximum BS" by Corky Bell) for more on ram air. Also, RamAir is a trademark of Pontiac, like Hemi is a trademark of Dodge. The VW Lupo has ram air and variable length intake runners, and twin cam Hondas have hemis. Don't get confused by the marketing hype.
The problem with axial flow turbines is the have a low pressure ratio on a single fan. Stacking them like in a gas turbine engine produces very good results. Radial flow turbines give much better pressure. What if those tiny ass marine bilge blowers were replaced with a squirrel cage fan? Perhaps it could be effective. Secondly, the power required to drive the supercharger has very little to do with the increase in engine output. You have to deal with mechanical efficiency, thermal eff., and volumetric eff. Secondly, the power driving the blower only modifies the airflow ammount. Depending on the fuel used, the ratio of extra air to extra power will vary, but the parasitic loss of the blower will remain the same. Batteries can produce a lot of power. Ever seen a low rider? How do you think they get a 2 ton Impala to jump 1 foot off the ground?


----------



## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (kimosullivan)*

Kimo,
I think Marty is referring to a different type of ram air than you are. What you are referring to is more commonly referred to as ram TUNING, and has to do with air columns bouncing up and down the intake port. This is a VERY important aspect of engine tuning, design, etc, but not the same thing as he is talking about. 
Ram air is commonly referred to is the age old practice of sticking a large funnel on your inlet pipe and putting that inplaceof the headlight, scoop on the bottom, or something along those lines. Two totally different concepts, maybe with the same technical terminology(I personally never heard resonance tuning referred to as ram air), with different but similar street terminlogy.
But while talking of variable length intake tracts and ram tuning, don't forget the Tuarus SHO which I think was the first widely available, inexpensive automobile to use this technolgy, and had exellent results.

Maximum BS...LOL... I love it!!!
Axial flow compressors yes, are efficient when stacked. I am working on a gas turbine right now, just taking a break and working on the final report. 16 stage compressor. 190 megawatt shaft output. I beleive the pressure output of the 16th stage is about 250psig. But the technology used in this I would think is alot more advanced than that of a Cessna ventilation fan.
How do 2 ton lowriders bounce on batteries..Easy, they use 8 of them in series!
And they charge them constantly


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*


_Quote »_Oh, so now its not people that HAVE to pay to install the flywheel, but just people who make more than 50-75 dollars an hour? You said the average Joe would have to pay to install the flywheel. The average Joe that pays to get the stuff done as a luxury instead of out of necessity probably has the money to do it right in the first place. 
How much to install your "axial flow compressor"? Considering it would take just as long to do a NICE installation. I mean all wrapped up, properly fused, no half ass buttsplice terminals or scotch locks, no exposed/free running wiring, no cheesy looking toggle switch in the dash, etc. I would be willing to bet it takes every bit of the nominally 3 hours to R&R a flywheel(since as you are saying its about having the free time to yourself, not the difficulty of the job that is the difference).

My comment regarding some people's time being worth more was more of a purposely ridiculous reply to your suggestion that intelligence and the ability to turn a wrench are somehow linked. The difference is that the average joe looking to mod his car can't R&R his tranny in 3 hours, let alone even have the tools to do such a job. But any person with a cone filter can attach the axial compressor, it hooks up just like a hose coupling. Agreed, to do any job well takes a LOT of time. The difference here in my mind is that one would be attempted by the average joe, and the other would not, and thus they would pay for installation.

_Quote »_
So dyno runs and track times are inconclusive, but an output from a VAG-Com isn't? Inform me how this is, as information seen by vag-com would be more suspect than back to back times at the track.


Ah, but the difference is that I am using the VAG-COM data as evidence that supports the theory, not empirical evidence alone.

_Quote »_
Thats the problem with simple physics. If we want to talk simple physics, should I inform you how your simple Physics I and II formulas will show that there is no advantage to running larger tires for traction(F=uN)? That F=ma and F=mv^^2 dont help figure anything automotive because of wind resistance?


Obviously the accuracy of any theory depends on how accurate the model is of the physical system. You of all people, having an "engineering job" as you say, should obviously know that you would never model vehicle tire dynamics simple with F=mu*N. But in response to your comment, yes, for equal loadings in a static situation running larger tires does not increase traction (to use the simple model you need the simple system).
But you are incorrect, the net force on your car is always going to equal it's mass times it's acceleration. If you leave out the force of drag, rolling resistance, acts of god, etc, then obviously the model is not as accurate.
Since you clearly understand this, then you, as an engineer, should see exactly how beautifully simple a flywheel is to model. It's simply a mass that is being accelerated by a torque. If there are any significant inaccuracies in modeling a flywheel as such, I am interested to hear it so I can take those in to account.

_Quote »_
I do know the reasons why these formulas are not entirely accurate, but if you wanted you could sit here and tell me that they are all perfectly valid because its simple physics. How can you prove to me that your formula does not fall apart or is overly simple when compared to the real world? Thats where the verification/validation comes in.


I never stated that the simple physics were a valid model in this case simply because they were simple. There are few physical systems that can be modeled so accurately with simple physics that anyone can understand, and I believe that your flywheel is one of them. Again if you feel differently, let me know why.

_Quote »_
Cya. Gotta get back to my engineering JOB.
Have fun in class.


Have fun. I'd go back to my engineering JOB, but I quit to take a break and get a Ph.D.


_Modified by Marty at 7:22 PM 4-30-2004_


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (kimosullivan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kimosullivan* »_
Ram air is not based upon the pressure you feel against your hand when you stick it out the window. You know this. Secondly, ram air is not based upon compression of air in a nozzle due to velocity effects. Ram air is a form of supercharging that relies on the reflected rarefaction and compression waves along the intake runners created when the valves are opened and closed. Jag had a V12 that would get 110% volumetric efficiency (at max at the tuned RPM) due to ram air. The pressure wave speed is dependant on temperature, while the timing of wave fronts for harmonic oscillation is based upon valve opening period and therefore RPM, so the ram air effect and VE gains will vary thru the RPM band. Read "The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems" (a much better book than "Maximum BS" by Corky Bell) for more on ram air. Also, RamAir is a trademark of Pontiac, like Hemi is a trademark of Dodge. The VW Lupo has ram air and variable length intake runners, and twin cam Hondas have hemis. Don't get confused by the marketing hype.
The problem with axial flow turbines is the have a low pressure ratio on a single fan. Stacking them like in a gas turbine engine produces very good results. Radial flow turbines give much better pressure. What if those tiny ass marine bilge blowers were replaced with a squirrel cage fan? Perhaps it could be effective. Secondly, the power required to drive the supercharger has very little to do with the increase in engine output. You have to deal with mechanical efficiency, thermal eff., and volumetric eff. Secondly, the power driving the blower only modifies the airflow ammount. Depending on the fuel used, the ratio of extra air to extra power will vary, but the parasitic loss of the blower will remain the same. Batteries can produce a lot of power. Ever seen a low rider? How do you think they get a 2 ton Impala to jump 1 foot off the ground?

"The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems" has been on my shelf for many years now.







I never liked Corky Bell's book, as I personally feel it has many inaccuracies. And from my personal conversations with him, let's just say that I'm not that suprised. 
I have never heard the term "ram air" used to describe resonance tuning of the intake or exhaust sytem. Even if that is where the trademark lies, when you talk about "ram air" most people think of "forcing" air in from scoops mounted in the air stream. But the actual gauge pressures generated in these stagnation zones is incredibly small, needing an intial air speed of 234 mph just to generate 1.0 psig as I mentioned (i.e., they're pretty useless on the street).


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*

All this talk of what is the best hp/$ mod and stuff and you're leaving out one thing. Yeah, for $300 you get lets say 5hp (the 7hp that seems to be claimed minus the 1.6hp current draw loss you stated). *BUT, it's only at WOT* So, all the things you say aren't as good a hp/$ value, are. A chip can net you up to 15hp, exhaust 10hp or so. Cams are another 10-15hp. All cost about $300 and have a significantly better hp/$ ratio PLUS work throughout the powerband, not just WOT. 
I'm sick of people all saying, "You're just a sheep doing what everyone else is doing." Um, hey Einstein, did it ever occur to you there is a reason why everyone puts the same mods on their cars? Because they work best perhaps? Gee, just maybe. If you want to keep thinking that you have some wonderful little known mod on your car, fine go for it. All these people saying "Fanz suck dood, get a terbo" are doing it for a reason. I hate to burst your little ego bubble, but there actually are people out there that know as much and more than you about FI and there are even a couple of them right here on this forum!


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
"The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems" has been on my shelf for many years now.







I never liked Corky Bell's book, as I personally feel it has many inaccuracies. And from my personal conversations with him, let's just say that I'm not that suprised. 


Let me guess, you tried to tell Corky about the wonderful benifits of using a fan induction system and he laughed at you right?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sad_rocc* »_All this talk of what is the best hp/$ mod and stuff and you're leaving out one thing. Yeah, for $300 you get lets say 5hp (the 7hp that seems to be claimed minus the 1.6hp current draw loss you stated). *BUT, it's only at WOT* So, all the things you say aren't as good a hp/$ value, are. A chip can net you up to 15hp, exhaust 10hp or so. Cams are another 10-15hp. All cost about $300 and have a significantly better hp/$ ratio PLUS work throughout the powerband, not just WOT. 
I'm sick of people all saying, "You're just a sheep doing what everyone else is doing." Um, hey Einstein, did it ever occur to you there is a reason why everyone puts the same mods on their cars? Because they work best perhaps? Gee, just maybe. If you want to keep thinking that you have some wonderful little known mod on your car, fine go for it. All these people saying "Fanz suck dood, get a terbo" are doing it for a reason. I hate to burst your little ego bubble, but there actually are people out there that know as much and more than you about FI and there are even a couple of them right here on this forum!









7%, not 7 hp, and the power consumed when driving it comes from storage in the battery that is recharged over time (just like your headlights). In my case, on a completely stock GTI at the time, I picked up about 11 hp. 
I never claimed that other mods do nothing (except that lightened flywheels and pullies make less than everyone thinks), just that this compressor does work and gives a significant increase throughout the entire rev range, not just peak over some small rev range.
Again, another hater hating just because it's a "fan" and he can't deal. Join the bandwagon.
And FYI, I sold this compressor about 4 years ago when I first put mechanical FI on this car. I can't keep up with the airflow anymore at 15 psi.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sad_rocc* »_
Let me guess, you tried to tell Corky about the wonderful benifits of using a fan induction system and he laughed at you right?









I actually spoke with him about the design of his Cartech FMU. Although if I had talked to him about the compressor I'm sure he would have been interested, as he at least has a technical background.


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
7%, not 7 hp, and the power consumed when driving it comes from storage in the battery that is recharged over time (just like your headlights). In my case, on a completely stock GTI at the time, I picked up about 11 hp. 


Sorry, my mistake. But, you were the one who said there is a 1.6hp loss from the power draw, not me.

_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
I never claimed that other mods do nothing (except that lightened flywheels and pullies make less than everyone thinks), just that this compressor does work and gives a significant increase throughout the entire rev range, not just peak over some small rev range.

True, you didn't. But you repeatedly claimed that it was one of the best hp/$ values out there. Which is what I said in my post. Where you got the idea that I said you claimed the other mods do nothing is beyond me. Also, why do you keep claiming it "gives a significant increase throughout the entire rev range" when you only use it at WOT?







And since when do the mods I listed "peak over some small rev range"?

_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Again, another hater hating just because it's a "fan" and he can't deal. Join the bandwagon.


Yup, that's me. Just another hater because I've pointed out numerous hypocrisies and "facts" that you've stated that are wrong. Do you even read the replies or just copy and paste the same response over and over?

_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
And FYI, I sold this compressor about 4 years ago when I first put mechanical FI on this car.  I can't keep up with the airflow anymore at 15 psi.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but uh, congratz on pawning it off on another sucker.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*

Not many mods can take your torque curve and lift it up by 7%. This 7% increase is available at 2000 RPM the same as 6000 RPM. I have never heard anybody use the term "throughout the rev range" or "throughout the power band" when referring to part throttle as you are. The whole on-only-at-full-throttle thing seems to be the hardest for people to grap. If you want to make more power when you're at 50% throttle, push on the gas a little more. I really don't see the confusion here. Hey, I've got the best $/hp mod out there for you. It's called push the pedal down a little further. It's a whole new world out there for you now.
Hmmm. $300, 7% _throughout entire rev range_ (see above if you're still confused). Sounds like a sucker mod to me. Excellent point.


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*

You're just straight talking out your rear now. 7% hp AND torque? Oh, and because YOU'VE never heard the term, it must not exist right? Why don't you get off your pedestal and join the rest of the world here on planet reality? Once again, you've done a fine job of defining acceleration. You've really mastered the concept of the gas pedal. Way to go! You are one of the few people that show up here now and then that just can't seem to see the big picture. Well, I'm done trying to clue you in, it's obviously a lost cause. I travel from CO to NY fairly regularly and maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to see you on the road. Then I'll take my $500 turbo kit that provides an 80% increase in power and show you what real FI is like.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*


_Quote »_Oh, and because YOU'VE never heard the term, it must not exist right?

Oh I've heard of the term "thoughout the powerband" and "throughout the rev range." I think you've just made up your own definition.









_Quote »_7% hp AND torque?

Oh come on now, you know better than that. If I increase torque at a given RPM by 7%, how much does horsepower increase?

_Quote »_I travel from CO to NY fairly regularly and maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to see you on the road. Then I'll take my $500 turbo kit that provides an 80% increase in power and show you what real FI is like.

Wow, turbo kits are down to $500 now? That beat's BoostedOne's $1000 kit! You guys must know all of the right places to shop, because the t04e setup I built on my VR6 cost me quite a bit more than that.


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## sad_rocc (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Oh I've heard of the term "thoughout the powerband" and "throughout the rev range." I think you've just made up your own definition.










Whatever.

_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Oh come on now, you know better than that. If I increase torque at a given RPM by 7%, how much does horsepower increase?


I dunno and it doesn't concern me enough to find out. I was just pointing out how you use your magic 7% for both torque and hp.

_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Wow, turbo kits are down to $500 now? That beat's BoostedOne's $1000 kit! You guys must know all of the right places to shop, because the t04e setup I built on my VR6 cost me quite a bit more than that. 

Why yes, yes they are. When you build your own kit instead of having someone do it for you, it costs significantly less. Plus, I'm an A1 guy. I know prices are comparatively sky-high to the Mk3s and 4s but for an A1 $500 is very doable. And turns out decent results, as Adidias CU mentioned.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (sad_rocc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sad_rocc* »_
I dunno and it doesn't concern me enough to find out. I was just pointing out how you use your magic 7% for both torque and hp.

Then honestly you really shouldn't be talking about it, let alone trying to use it to prove something in an argument.

_Quote »_
Why yes, yes they are. When you build your own kit instead of having someone do it for you, it costs significantly less. Plus, I'm an A1 guy. I know prices are comparatively sky-high to the Mk3s and 4s but for an A1 $500 is very doable. And turns out decent results, as Adidias CU mentioned.

Must be nice. The injectors alone that I needed for fuel were $300.


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## 1SWTG60 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: ghetto charger (HedG)*

THe fan size you would need to produce any decent numbers would be so big it would not fit in your intake setup, waste of time man, focus on your cams or your exhaust .


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: ghetto charger (1SWTG60)*

And on that note I think we're done.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

LOL, why's that?
Sorry I missed all the excitement.
I'm not going to go through all these posts again but just a few points.....
I didnt say intelligence and being able to work tools were or were not related. I know very many intelligent people that can't change spark plugs. What I said, which I stand behind in the original reference, is I see the market your fan applies to. It applies to guys who do not have the SMARTS to do the job themselves. It takes nothing more than some hand tools, a floor jack, and a some effort to swap a flywheel. Don't give me any sh*t about needing a place to work or air or other special stuff. When I was in college I used to pull trannies on my cars in places such as:
Friends driveways, Engineering parking lot at school, remote parking lot at school, behind Discount Auto Parts, car wash late at night, etc. Most people these days are just LAZY.
And with that LAZY people settle for LAZY people's mods. Everyone wants stuff now. Instead of researching where to find the good stuff for cheap or how to do things themselves they spend hundreds of dollars on ABD intake pipes, polished large bore throttle bodies, billet fuel rails, 400 dollar 2.5" exhaust systems. 
When these LAZY guys get to doing real forced induction, they spend a thousands of dollars on turbo kits. 
How did I get my turbo kit? Lets see:
Turbo: Good T3 core off Ebay for 20 dollars. 50 dollars for rebuild parts, 10 dollars for shaft balance, and 40 dollars to replace a cracked exhaust housing and replace the internal WG actuator after I decided to toss the external gate. Thats 120 for a good to go Turbo.
I bought a complete Callaway stage I kit for $100. Sold the microfueler and the intake pipe for a combined $200, meaning I am at minus $100 for my manifold, and $20 for my setup. Considering most can't get this deal, but you can modify a stock manifold. My friend did his turbo by cutting the outlet off a stock manifold($15 at the junkyard), cutting the flange off a scrap turbo(but could have bought one for $20, and welded it himself. Even if he paid 30 bux for someone to weld it and bought the flange new that would be $65 for a manifold. Total cost so far, $185.
I have a 3" self run exhaust on my A2, 3" pipe running all the way from the turbine wheel to the back bumper(well, a 2.5" muffler because I had it laying around). I have $70 in bends, 30 dollars in pipe, and 10 dollars in my muffler. But the 3" muffler I usually run is 60 bux. Plus 30 for a stainless tip, and 35$ for a flex joint from this guy who sells em on Ebay. So, 235$ for a complete 3" exhaust. Thats about 30 more than what you pay ATP for a 2.5" downpipe alone isnt it? Total this far, $420 for the Average Non Lazy Joe.
Intercooler piping..I spend about 50 bux in 2.5" U bends from JC Whitney. The legs on the bends were plenty long enough to be reused to fab almost the entire assembly. Figure if you need another two small sections from Autozone, $60 total. Total now, $480.
Between the NPR, Porsche 944, and other various possiblities you would have to try hard to pay more than $175 for a decent intercooler. I got mine for $100, and it is from a Procharger Mustang 5.0 supercharger kit. But, for the average non Lazy Joe the current price is now up to $655.
Stainless braided oil feed line of $30, and $40 for a return. Total, $735.
There ya have it. Essentially the stuff included in a $2000+ turbo kit. 
Is that all that it takes to totally do it up to handle 18-20psi of boost? No, but it is a significant start. 
But to entertain the remainder of the equation, consider that a Digi I conversion or chip is about the minimum needed to handle the management. This can be had for a few hundred bux. Stacked headgaskets, another $75. 
There you have it, right at $1000 for a 100% increase. 
I personally have about $450 in mine, plus an additional $75 I used to convert over to Ford EFI which worked somewhat good. I later spent some more money to convert over to the Haltech(since I had it already for my other car) and the cross flow head(ease of maintanance) but neither of these are necessities to whip the piss out of a fan mod.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1370048
marty - how come you werent all up in that screaming about how tight it is and how linear the increase in output would be??...you didnt argue with those guys when they said it was a waste of time, and wasnt worth pissing on. where were you on that one?















they said the same things we have been saying...does it spin? yes. can it work? yes, to an extent. how well can it work? not very well if all you are going to do is throw 50 amps at it. 
this 
is
not
an
alternative
to
a
turbo
period.
end of discussion


_Modified by adidas_mc at 5:43 PM 5-2-2004_


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*

I thought you had a physics degree?
As much fun as it is to own you over and over and over again, it has really become repetitive and a waste of time, with no more fruitful info that hasn't already been repeated. So I'm going to resist the temptation and call it quits on this thread, and let your posts speak for themselves.


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## PwrVdubGuy (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: (Marty)*

I think they do, we all agree that the fan works, but it isn't practical by any means... at least in my case... why would I want to settle for a lowly 1psi? it's not an alternative for anything. By itself it holds it's own virtues, but the technology is not practical yet. when they make those fans pushing 20psi for the price of a mechanical turbo...call me... till then, I think you can argue till you're blue in the face, it doesn't compare to mechanical FI.
Period.


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## adidas_mc (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*

damn marty...can i borrow your fan? i feel kinda hot after being owned so hard. i'd use my physics degree to cool me down, but it doesnt provide the cfm's your fan does. my post do speak for themselves, as do yours. you straight up OwN3d me with statements like: 
"The fact remains that the thing works, and is one of the best hp/$ mods out there (better than an exhaust or pullies or flywheel, and right there with cams and a chip). You guys are unable to produce any non-trivial argument to dispute that.
The masses think a Turn2 lightned crank pulley is a worthwhile mod and can "feel" the power increase. I rest my case."


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## PwrVdubGuy (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: (adidas_mc)*

"it's not a fan versus turbo thread. it's just a "is $300 worth a 7% gain in horsepower" question" = Marty
If you said this in the beginning, then I would have said yeah, to some, it's worth it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: ghetto charger (BoostedOne)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BoostedOne* »_How do 2 ton lowriders bounce on batteries..Easy, they use 8 of them in series!
And they charge them constantly


Actually, they run them all in parallel. I used to work at a welding show where many low riders would come to get 4/0 gauge cable for their cars. And they charge the batteries at home before the cruise or show. However, battery power can be used effectively to supply high power electric motors. Charge the battery while cruising, and discharge it to power the compresser when at wide open throttle. Kinda like the Ford F-150 Lightning using refrigerant for the intercooler.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Hmm, I thought the Lightning used engine coolant like the Syclone and Typhoon.
As to the lowriders, I guess it depends on what they are doing. The guys who go cruising on juice may run them in parallel, but the guys with the monster hoppers that can hit 4 feet are running in series I beleive, to hit the motor with the highest voltage possible. Thats why half of them smoke a motor during the hop contests.


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