# REFERENCE: 1.8t Fuel Lines/ Fueling FAQ



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*1.8t Fueling FAQ*

Note: I have some terminology that references brake systems. Brake systems are similar to fuel systems in that 1) they are critical and not allowed to fail for safety reasons and 2) they are high pressure lines filled with material that must be treated special (compared to water or similar). As such, brake line methodologies can be carried across to fuel line methodologies very nicely.

In case any of the image links ever decide to break, I've put this in a PDF for all future posterity (updated October 20, 2010)

*Terminology*


*AN vs. NPT: Understanding port threads, adapter fittings and line sizes.*
*What is AN?*
The designation AN stands for Army/Navy and calls out mil/spec (military specifications) for dimensional standards of hydraulic lines, hose-end connectors and port adapter fittings. AN specifications are a popular standard met by all companies that manufacture AN style performance fuel hose and accessories. For many there has been much confusion about the subject of AN lines, NPT and ORB ports, and how all of this works together. Here are the answers for those wanting to know.

*Flare Angles*
The flare angle used to seal AN connections is required to be SAE, 37 degree, as apposed to the 45 degree flare commonly found on household plumbing adapters. This angle can be found on the male point of the port adapter fitting and on the female inside the hose-end nut. AN port threads are not NPT or “pipe thread” but instead utilize straight threads (like any normal fastener) and SAE O-Ring Boss (ORB) technology for sealing. AN lines, ORB ports and the appropriate port adapter fittings are measured in inch/fractional sizes.

*AN 'dash' sizing*
A dash (–) size in AN “speak” refers to the I.D. of a standard, thin wall, hard line as the basis to construct a comparable flexible hose that may be used in it’s place. A 1/2”, thin wall, hard line measures .500” on the outside diameter (O.D.), has an inside diameter (I.D.) of 0.440”, and a wall thickness of 0.030”. An appropriate, flexible replacement line would be –8 AN, with a minimum 0.440” I.D. Depending on line construction, rubber with stainless steel or nylon braid, or Teflon with stainless steel braid, the line’s wall thickness and O.D. may vary.

AN line sizes will have a dash (-) preceding the line size. The number after the dash refers to the number of 1/16 of an inch O.D., thin wall, hard line to which the flexible line will compare. For example, calling for a –8 AN line would mean the engineer or system designer requires a flexible line, made of certain materials suitable for the application, that would have the minimum I.D. of an 8/16” (1/2”) O.D. hard line. The actual line construction is dictated by the application with regard to line flexibility, vacuum and pressure capability, abrasion resistance and chemical compatibility, etc. Regardless, the engineer knows a -8 line of any construction will have a minimum I.D. equal to 1/2” hard line (.0440”), and be able to support similar flow rates.

*Modern, Best Practices*
Modern, high performance fuel systems are predominately fitted with safer, better sealing, higher flowing, AN-ORB ports. These ports require a straight thread adapter fitting, with a sealing O-Ring installed over the threads, up to the hex, that disappears into the port when properly installed. No additional thread sealer is required or recommended.

*NPT, AN, and adapters*
National Pipe Thread (NPT) ports, AN Ports and port adapter fittings:
Over the years, in low-pressure hydraulics, NPT has been a popular thread for ports and adapter fittings. When NPT ports are used in a fuel system with AN line, an adapter fitting to convert from NPT to AN is required. NPT was designed for use with thick walled pipe, typically black pipe, used in fixed structures like buildings, to handle distribution of water and natural gas. Black pipe isn’t particularly bendable, flexible or lightweight and hardly desirable for plumbing a high performance fuel system. As a result fittings that adapt NPT ports to AN line are common to allow flexible AN lines to be utilized in performance automotive fuel systems.

Unlike AN thread, which is straight, NPT ports and fittings are both tapered. NPT male to female adapters start loose, threading easily but get tight and harder to turn well before the hex touches the port. When threaded together, the NPT design creates a wedging effect, binding the thread in order to seal. The use of a thread sealant is common and required with NPT, as it does not consistently create a positive seal on it’s own, like an O-Ring configuration. It’s common to see a number of threads showing on the adapter fitting when NPT is sufficiently tight, making NPT assemblies bulkier and less clean appearing than a similar AN assembly.

NPT ports are commonly adapted to AN lines, but the NPT size designation is confusing, identifying the pipe I.D. rather than the O.D. Black pipe has a much thicker wall than hard line, so the pipe/port O.D. is much larger than the NPT size would seem to indicate. For example, a 3/8” NPT port will have an outside diameter of 5/8”, allowing for a wall thickness of 1/8” (0.125”). As a result, NPT port sizes allow use of a one step larger AN line than their indicated size would seem to support. As long as the wall of the adapter fitting is not overly thick, the following NPT Port to AN adapters will provide a common I.D. through-hole:

* JIC*

JIC fittings, defined by the SAE J514 and MIL-F-18866 standards, are a type of flare fitting machined with a 37-degree flare seating surface. JIC (Joint Industry Council) fittings are widely used in fuel delivery and fluid power applications, especially where extremely high pressure is involved. The SAE J514 standard replaces the MS16142 military specification, although some tooling is still listed under MS16142. JIC fittings are dimensionally identical to AN (Army-Navy) fittings, but are produced to less exacting tolerances and are generally less costly. 45-degree flare fittings are similar in appearance, but are not interchangeable.

JIC fitting systems have three components that make a tubing assembly: fitting, flare nut, and sleeve. As with other flared connection systems, the seal is achieved through metal-to-metal contact between the finished surface of the fitting nose and the inside diameter of the flared tubing. The sleeve is used to evenly distribute the compressive forces of the flare nut to the flared end of the tube. Materials commonly used to fabricate JIC fittings include forged carbon steel, forged stainless steel, forged brass, machined brass, Monel and nickel-copper alloys.

*AN -> NPT port sizing*
Maximum AN line for NPT port size: 
1/4” NPT is compatible with up to -6 AN (3/8” hard line) 
3/8” NPT is compatible with up to –8 AN (1/2” hard line) 
1/2” NPT is compatible with up to –10 AN (5/8” hard line) 
3/4” NPT is compatible with up to -16 AN (1” hard line)

*Connecting large AN fittings to smaller NPT fittings WARNINGS*
Adapter fittings are available for connecting larger than recommended AN lines to the above NPT ports. Beware, the inside diameter of the adapter fitting will necessarily be smaller on the NPT side, creating a flow restriction that many racers and hotrod enthusiasts overlook. This is a poor practice and should be avoided, but when no alternative is available, consider sourcing a steel NPT to AN adapter from a good hydraulic supplier. Steel adapters will have a thinner wall than aluminum, due to the increase in material strength, leaving a larger I.D. to support higher flow on the too small, NPT side of the adapter.

*SAE J514, Straight Thread O-Ring Boss (ORB)*

This straight thread connection uses the same threads as the JIC 37°. However the 37° flare has been removed and an o-ring has been added. When mated with a female o-ring boss port the o-ring is trapped in a special tapered counter bore to affect the seal.
See here for more information
*Common army/navy (AN) line and thread specifications*
*AN | Metal Tube (Hard Line) OD | Port & Fitting (Diameter-TPI)*

2 | 1/8" | 5/16-24 SAE
3 | 3/16" | 3/8-24 SAE
4 | 1/4" | 7/16-20 SAE
5 | 5/16" | 1/2-20 SAE
6 | 3/8" | 9/16-18 SAE
8 | 1/2" | 3/4-16 SAE
10 | 5/8" | 7/8-14 SAE
12 | 3/4" | 1-1/16-12 SAE
16 | 1" | 1-5/16-12 SAE
20 1-1/4" | 1-5/8-12 SAE
24 | 1-1/2" | 1-7/8-12 SAE
28 | 1-3/4" | 2-1/4-12 SAE
32 | 2" | 2-1/2-12 SAE

*A note about AN Flares versus SAE Flares:*
Automotive flares and flare tools are 45-degree flares. “AN” flares are 37 degrees. It is not “technically correct” to use a 45-degree flared tube with the 37 degree AN fittings, and for military and aviation use, this is not allowed: The 37-degree flares are designed to operate safely in systems up through 3,000 psi, so a flared angle mismatch is not allowed under these conditions. We never see such pressures in auto fuel systems. In actual testing that I have done, I have found that the 45/37 combination works safely and reliably in pressure systems up to 250 psi. In applications above 250 psi, the line-interface created by the angle mismatch can start to leak if the fittings are not re-torqued. In automotive fuel systems operating at 4 to 8 psi, the 45/37 interface works reliably and flawlessly, without the need to re-torque. Much more reliably than a rubber fuel line with a clamp… However, if you want to create a “perfect” flare interface, 37-degree flare tools are available from aviation supply houses.

You will not notice any difference in system reliability between the two flare angles in this automotive fuel system application.








Example of AN Flare
*Where are the different flares used on our cars?*

There are four (more or less) flaring styles in common use for brake systems. British cars have a bubble flare (aka Girling flare) backed up with a male swivel nut or a 45 degree double flare backed up with a female swivel nut. Metric cars have ISO bubble flares, where the pipes and threads are metric sizes rather than inch. Detroit iron has a 45 degree double flare backed up by a male threaded nut. Most (non-British) race cars are plumbed with AN (aka JIC) type single flares - a 37 degree single flare with a backup sleeve and inch threaded swivel nut (some people make a double flare here, which is useless overkill and may lead to failure; see below). Lastly, some brake fittings use tapered pipe fittings.

Take the easy one first: tapered pipe fittings are not really a positive seal under adverse conditions. They may do the job for a street car, but they certainly have no place on a race car.

The bubble flare is used with a male swivel nut, and seals at the bottom of a drilled and tapped hole, with a nice angled bottom. While it can usually be resealed, it has a limited lifetime - there's no good way to get back the deformation that was crushed out for the first seal, short of remaking the flare from scratch.

Making such a flare is easy: if you are in possession of a standard 45 degree double flaring tool, the bubble flare is what results after the first half of the operation. Simply stop there, and you have the bubble flare which will seat nicely at the bottom of the hole. If you continue, inverting the form tool and finishing the job, you then have the more familiar double flare used by Girling and the US automotive industry.

The SAE 45 degree double flare usually has a male-threaded tube nut that bears directly on the OD of the flared tube- so you need a double flare to help control galling that can result in stress cracking right at the flare. In short, you need "give" there. Problem is, the deformation that results is kind of irreversible, so the next cycle or two will result in your having to use astronomical torques to keep the flare from weeping. Worse is trying to use a single flare in an SAE flare nut and seat, and worse still if the seat is brass- the flared tube is sqaushed from both sides, even as it is deformed by the nut galling on it. The brass seat deforms and work hardens. It may seal once, with a ton of torque and some luck. It's not recommended practice - it's not even a good idea.

Racers (and aircraft, which is where the system originated as the "Army-Navy" or AN standard in WWII) use the single 37 degree flare. The AN single flare is still a concave flare, but its 37deg angle seals by stretching, not squashing. The tube is supported by a separate sleeve that the female-threaded tube nut bears upon. This isolates the flare from the torques imparted by the nut. So rather than trying to get a seal despite the presence of rotating torques and the resulting galling, you press the flare between precisely-machined (steel!) seat and precisely-machined support sleeve. The sealing area under compression is at least double that of the SAE flare. An additional bonus is that the OD of the nut is a lot larger than the 3/8" of an SAE nut, which means you won't kill as many trying to get the proper sealing torque. (Even so, you should always use a proper flare nut wrench on any tube nut.)

The SAE stuff was designed to go together once on the assembly line, and then be "immortal", as defined by Detroit. It's pretty good at it, too! The AN stuff is designed for field serviceability, long fatigue life, and a level of bulletproofness the SAE never considered. A further, Very Strong, recommendation is that single flared AN fittings are the only thing that Carroll Smith will suffer to put on his race cars.

The reason for harping on repeatability and multiple mate-demate cycles is that, to the best of my knowledge, I have never once put something on the car, and had it stay put on. I always forgot something, or broke something during the season, or needed to swap out something because it was at the end of its service life. While the double flare has that nice "squish" feeling as you tighten the flare nut the first time, the AN fitting has the same torque requirement for the second mating cycle as the first. That's where the reliablity across multiple cycles comes from.

Never use compression fittings for brake plumbing.

I know racers that have gone so far as to purge all the SAE double flare fittings out of the plumbing of their track cars, except possibly the fittings at the master cylinder. The rationale is two-fold: first, the above-mentioned repeatability, and second, the fact that the AN parts are universally available at every race shop in every backwater in the country.

I have not gone quite so far on my British cars, which are plumbed with Girling flares. It is a happy coincidence (at least, it seems like a coincidence, perhaps it is by design) that the female Girling flare hardware will mate comfortably with a male AN-3 fitting; I have thus replaced the fancy fittings on the rubber hoses with the appropriate AN-3 male-to-male bulkhead fittings, and the hoses themselves with -3 female fittings on Teflon -3 line. My master cylinders all have machined flat surfaces, so the outlets are easy to adapt to -3 hoses as well (-4 for the clutch, typically).

A few words about Teflon lines: they may not have a place on your street car. For starters, the Teflon lines you make up at home don't have DOT approval, because they haven't been through the DOT approval process and you're not a certified manufacturer. Even the Teflon lines you can buy pre-built are probably not DOT approved (though there are a few coming onto the market) for the same certification reasons. The main reason for this lack of approval is that manufacturers of racing gear don't care to spend the money - they're building the hoses for racers. The next reason is that the DOT expected lifetime for such brake hoses is five years, and the prudent racer will replace his or her brake hoses every other season, just to be sure. (This is a good reason to make your own - then you can reuse the fittings and just buy new olives and hose.) There are some concerns about using Teflon line in cold environments, though Aircraft Spruce is willing to sell you lines custom made from Aeroquip Teflon hose and rate them to -40 degF, so I'm not so sure that's a concern. It may well be that the intended application for those lines is not subject to as much repeated deflection as the flex line snaking through your front suspension out to the caliper.

*Other Sealing Methods*
Other sealing methods

There is one other kind of sealing involved in braking systems, usually at caliper or cylinder entry and often when converting over from one kind of flaring system to another: a washer face at the top of a hole. This requires a crush washer of soft copper, aluminum, or in extreme cases, a Stat-O-Seal, which is a combination of O-ring and aluminum crush washer. To make this an effective seal, a precision machined surface is required around the drilling, exactly perpendicular to the axis of the threaded hole. If this is not there, you must use a bottom sealing fitting. Conversely, if the hole does not have a nicely formed drill point form at its bottom or the fitting will not reach the bottom, you must use a sealing washer (and, of course, provide the machined washer face for it to seal against).

A neat trick I learned a while back is that copper crush washers can be reused - IF you anneal them. Place the washer in question on a brick and play your propane torch across it until it glows orange. Let it cool. It's now as soft as it was originally and will re-crush and seal perfectly.


*DIY Links*


Make your own Fuel Line
Make your own fuel line
Make your own fuel line
Common Fueling Mistakes by Barry 
Grant
How to choose a fitting type
A good read on many types of flares with applications and uses


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*[highlight]Pricing Summary*[/highlight]

*Fuel Line Price Summary ($/ft prices based off 10ft length), in increasing order*
Aluminum Tubing - $0.80/ft
Stainless Tubing - $2.40/ft
Summit Racing Twist Tite - $2.50/ft
Aeroquip AQP Socketless - $3.60/ft
Summit Racing Stainless Braided - $4.00/ft
Aeroquip AQP Stainless Braided - $5.00/ft
Aeroquip Startlite - $6.90/ft

*Fitting Price Summary*
Tube Sleeves + Tube Nuts - ~$7
AN -> Twist-Tite - ~$3
AN -> AN Hose - ~$7
AN -> AQP Socketless
Add a bend to any of those fittings - ~+$7
AN -> AQP/ Startlite Crimp - ~$17
Add a bend to any of these fittings - ~+$15
AN -> Factory Fuel Line - ~$17 aluminum, ~$35 stainless
Bundy Fittings - ~$10

[highlight]*Fuel Line Choices*[/highlight]


Aluminum Tubing
Soft material. Can be bent by hand or with an inexpensive tube bender. Smaller than flex tube for the same inner diameter. Compatible with hard line fittings.

Use this for return line only. Does not have the pressure handling capabilities to be used for high pressure intake line.









Summit Racing SUM-G2516 - 5/16" Alum, 25ft - $20
Stainless Steel Tubing
Similar to aluminum tubing but requires higher quality flaring and bending tools to work with it. It can be polished much nicer than aluminum can and can be found without a seam weld line like aluminum. Compatible with hard line fittings.

Pretty much this is the bee's knees of tubing. If you have the patience, tools, and ...patience to work with this stuff you can upgrade most every piece of your car. It can handle super high pressures, can withstand most every type of fluid (gas, E85, brake, hydraulic, A/C, jet fuel, whatever) and looks AWESOME when all set up right. Times where you should use a flexible line instead should be mating to a moving part. For instance, going from hardline in the body to the engine, you should couple the two pieces with some flex hose.
















Summit Racing SUM-220256 / 5/16", 20ft / $48
Twist-Tite (Reinforced Rubber Hose)
Think of this as an inexpensive version of the braided steel hose. It can withstand high pressures, is flexible, and is inexpensive. The rated pressures are only good if you get the matching fittings. And remember, not all rubber tubing is created equal! You have to get the stuff that is built to carry high pressure fuel! This can be used in twist-tite connectors only. A note on the flexibility. Although this hose can flex it is burly stuff! Figure on a generous bend radius when using this hose. Although it is rubber, it is thick and doesn't like sharp bends. Those sharp bend situations are a place hard lines shine.

Once you put this on the connector it cannot be just taken off.You will need to cut the tube off the connector, thus shortening the line length. This is good line, but when you connect it be 100% sure that it is where you want it because it's not coming off without you cutting it off.

Furthermore, the connection this hose has on the connectors is substantial. No hose clamps are necessary to aid keeping the hose on the connector. 








Summit Racing Twist-Tite Hose - 6AN, 20ft - $45
Aeroquip AQP Socketless Hose (Reinforced rubber hose)
This is similar to the twist-tie hose above but is compatible with the AQP socketless hose connectors. More expensive probably because it's a brand name. This can be used in AQP socketless hose connectors only. Per user Richard_Cranium, he considers this stuff a PITA. He purchased a bunch of this and was so frustrated with the assembly of it that he moved to braided stainless steel instead.








Summit Racing FCV0615 / Aeroquip AQP Socketless hose 6AN, 15ft - $53
Aeroquip Startlite Racing Hose
Similar to AQP socketless hose but it is sanctioned by many racing bodies and has a Nomex and kevlar cover for increased heat and abrasion resistance. Plus it's 45 percent lighter than similar hose from other brands. Handles similar pressure to the AQP socketless (200 PSI). Compatible with AQP fittings.








Summit Racing FCU0610 / 6AN, 10ft - $69
Aeroquip AQP Stainless Steel Braided Hose
This is similar to regular stainless braided hose, but it allows you to reuse your fittings if you'd like. Making a connection is as simple as pushing the AQP hose into the AQP fitting.

NOT SURE --- I think this is cross compatible with generic stainless steel braided hose (aka Summit Racing house brand Stainless steel braided hose)








Summit Racing FCA0610 - 6AN, 10ft - $50

Stainless Steel Flex Hose
This is a generic product that is less expensive than the brand name Aeroquip or similar. Flexible, durable. Good stuff.








Summit Racing SUM-230610 / 6AN, 10ft / $40


[highlight]*Fittings*[/highlight]
Obviously, this list can't be comprehensive and my intention is not to make this comprehensive. This is just to give you a rough idea of what's out there to help you plan. If you're running a different hose size then go source something that fits your plan. Also, I'm listing prices so you can pick fittings that keep you in your budget. Some fittings cost far more than others. Also, there are many other companies than summit racing that make this stuff, they just have a nice website that allows me to link images off it.

Also, I'm only going to post up one example of each fitting. You can get almost any of these fittings in straight (0 degree), 45 degree, 90 degree, and 180 degree variants.

Color. The hot rod gods deemed blue and red to be the color of speed (I think)...so most every fitting seems to come in a combination of blue and red. In the last couple years companies started producing straight black fittings too. Of course, there is always the raw metal look (metal or nickel plated) So now'a'days you have some options




Here's what the angles look like...
45 degrees








90 degrees








120 degrees








150 degrees








180 degrees









Aluminum Tubing -> AN Hose
Summit Racing SUM-2200075 - 6AN hose -> 3/8" Alum tubing - $6








Hard Line -> AN Hose (Tube Sleeves)
These work in conjunction with a tube nut. It goes like this...

Put the tube nut on the hard line.
Put the tube sleeve (smaller diameter side first) on the hard line.
Prep, cut, and flare the hard line.
Walla! You have a hard line with an AN female connection on it, ready to be mated to a male AN connection.








Summit Racing FBM3679 / 5AN / $4
AN Tube Nuts
The compliment to the tube sleeve








Summit Racing FBM3591 / 3AN / $3
AN Crimp
I don't know what this crimps on to? Stainless braided? Rubber? Aeroquip specific?








Summit Racing FC3443-05S / 6AN hose end crimp / $2
Male AN -> Twist Tite








Summit Racing SUM-220756 - 6AN male -> 6 AN barb - $3
Female AN -> Twist Tite








Summit Racing SUM-220706 - $10
Female AN -> AN Hose








Summit Racing SUM-220687 - $14
Male AN -> AN Hose
Female AN -> AN Hose
Female AN -> Aeroquip AQP








Summit Racing FBM1012 / 6AN -> AQP / $7
Male AN -> Aeroquip AQP
Male AN -> Aeroquip AQP Socketless
Female AN -> Aeroquip AQP Socketless (Crimp)








Summit Racing FBM4274 / 10AN -> 10AN / $31
Female AN -> Aeroquip AQP Socketless








Summit Racing FBM1512 / AQP Socketless -> 6AN / $6
Male AN -> Male NPT








Summit Racing FBM2037 / AN -> NPT / $10
Male AN -> Female NPT








Summit Racing FBM2719 / 3AN -> 1/8" NPT / $10
Male AN Flare -> Metric








Summit Racing FBM2608 / 6AN -> 16mmx1.5 / $14
Female AN -> Female AN








Summit Racing FBM2916 / 8AN->8AN / $8
NPT Plug








Summit Racing FBM3685 / 1/8" NPT / $4
AN -> Factory Tubing
This will allow you to convert factory tubing to -AN. The stainless fitting costs about twice as much as the aluminum fitting. I don't know why most people would need the expensive stainless over the aluminum.








Summit Racing 15117 / Stainless 6AN -> 5/16" OEM line / $35








Summit Racing 640863 / Aluminum 6AN -> 5/16" OEM Line / $19
AN -> Factory Tubing (5/16" barb)
















Summit Racing 15103 / 6AN -> 5/16" OEM line / $35
Jay Racing / $10
Male AN -> AN O-Ring








Summit Racing 15607 / 8AN -> 8AN Oring / $13
Female 6AN -> Male 3/8" Barb Fittings
















USRT / $30
Jay Racing / $10
Male M18x1.5 -> Male 6AN , Male M12x1.5 -> Male 6AN
This fitting is pretty much perfect for the Bosch 044 pump.








USRT / $25
Male M18x1.5 -> Male -6AN
Perfect for Bosch 044 Inlet








$10 / Jay Racing
Male M18x1.5 -> Male -8AN
Perfect for Bosch 044 Inlet








$10 / Jay Racing
Male M18x1.5 -> Male -10AN
Perfect for Bosch 044 Inlet








Male 12x1.5 -> Male -6AN
Perfect for Bosch 044 Outlet








$10 / Jay Racing
Male M18x1.5 -> OEM Style Nipple , Male M12x1.5 -> OEM style nipple
Perfect for adapting stock fuel line to the Bosch 044.
Fittings are made of stainless and come with the proper copper crush washers.
This is so that the Bosch 044 can be a drop in replacement for the stock OEM fuel filter.
Note: If you put the Bosch 044 in this location you should make sure to add proper filtration into the system in a different location (both pre and post pump). See notes on fuel filters for more details.
















Badger-5.com / 50 pounds sterling + shipping ($81.68 US + ~$40 shipping to the US)
10mmx1.0 -> 6AN
This fitting is perfect for the Walbro fuel pump








USRT / $20
O-Rings for AN-Oring connections
...list some compatible Viton and Buna-N o-rings
Bundy Fittings
These are what your OEM fuel system uses all over the place. C2 Motorsports seems to carry them.










[highlight]*Bulkhead Adapters*[/highlight]



Use these when you need to get a line through a firewall, panel, or anything else for that matter. Much more secure than just drilling a hole and pulling lines through.
6AN -> 6AN








Summit Racing FBM2072 / 6AN ->6AN / $5
Bulkhead Nut








Summit Racing FBM2103 / 8AN / $3


*Reducers*


8AN -> 6AN








Summit Racing FBM2410 / 8AN -> 6AN / $8


*Splitters*


8AN -> 8AN -> 8AN








Summit Racing FBM2283
 10AN -> 8AN -> 8AN








Summit Racing 15620 / $78








Summit Racing 15675 / $50


*Gauge Adapters*


 Flare -> Flare (w/ NPT Gauge Port)








USRT / $9
AN -> NPT (w/ NPT Gauge Port)








Summit Racing FBM2277, $7
AN -> AN (w/ NPT Gauge Port)








Summit Racing FBM2183, AN6->AN6, $7


*Links*


Twist-Tite Parts @ Summit Racing


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*[highlight]Water/ Methanol (Water/ Meth) (W/M) Injection*[/highlight]
This is spraying a mix of water and methanol into your intake tract somewhere along the line. It's a topic unto itself and therefore I've created a separate thread for it here

*[highlight]Check Valves*[/highlight]


Aeromotive High Flow One Way Check Valves








Summit Racing 15106 / 6AN / $62
Jay Racing Bosch 044 Check Valves (Inlet/Outlet
Note: When I was researching their site was down. I need more info on this check valve.


jayracing.com said:


> Finally, a quick and easy solution to adding a high-flow check valve to your Bosch fuel pump. These neat little check valves attach directly to the Bosch 044 fuel pump (or others with a M12 x 1.5 female thread outlet). Machined from billet aluminum, the outlet end is -8AN (also available in -6AN).
> 
> This will maintain fuel pressure in the lines to decrease/eliminate priming time. Also this will help fight pressure fluctuations on the pump itself, especially when used in a multiple fuel pump application such as two pumps in parallel.













*[highlight]Fuel Pumps*[/highlight]
You need more fueling when you are using bigger injectors and can no longer flow enough fuel into your engine. In other words, if under high boost you are loosing fuel pressure your pumps can not keep up with the flow. The pumps we put on these cars rarely have a problem keeping up with the pressure...it's the flow numbers that are the problems.

Normally a standard in-tank fuel pump will feed the in-line fuel pump. The in-line fuel pump will feed the engine during high demand periods but can not sustain that high demand. The in-tank fuel pump can not feed enough fuel to the in-line fuel pump and you will have fuel starvation under sustained WOT driving. If you fall under this category then a surge-tank is for you.

Also, before choosing a fuel pump double check that it handles your fuel type. If you add for instance, E-85 to the mix, not all fuel pumps can handle this. You've been warned. Read the datasheets.



Richard_Cranium said:


> you MUST PAY ATTENTION to the instructions with certain fuel pumps. not all of them are "pull" type. the A-1000 is the first that comes to mind. it is a "pusher" type pump, and needs to be gravity fed or pumped to feed it. it "may" run for a bit pulling fuel, but it wont last for long. some are pull-type pumps that can pull fuel as well as push. then there is the low-pressure high flow versus high pressure pumps as well. if using inline pumps and a surge tank, it would be good for a low pressure high flow pump to feed the surge, and then high pressure out of the surge to the motor. this way the surge is always full.


Very good overview of many pumps
...I need to insert graphs into these



Walbro 255LPH - High Pressure Pump
Mfg Part # GSL392
Capable of supporting ~400WHP cars
Free Flow Rate: 255 LPH @ 3BAR
Inlet: 10mm x 1.0 (Female)
Outlet: 10mm x 1.0 (female)
Inlet/ Outlet fittings can be sourced from www.fuel-pumps.net or ATP Turbo
















Install Kit @ USRT
ATP Turbo / Walbro 255LPH / $129
Bosch 0 580 254 044 Inline Fuel Pump aka. Bosch '044' fuel pump
Bosch Data Sheet

Bosch 044 fuel pumps mount inline (out side of your gas tank), most commonly rear center under your car or truck. Each Bosch 044 inline fuel pump provides 300LPH of flow and operate at 72.5 PSI. Bosch 044 fuel pumps are comparable to the Walbro 255LPH high pressure inline fuel pumps which can both support vehicles for up to 600-700 horse power. Can be used in sequence with an intank Walbro or Bosch 040 fuel pump.

Bosch 044 Fuel Pump Specs:
Bosch Part Number: 0 580 254 044
Minimum Current: 12 Volts
Operating Pressure: 72.5 PSI (5 Bar)
Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 80 GPH (300 LPH)
Fuel Pump Location: In-Line
High Temperature Reduction: 8 GPH (30 LPH)
Weight: 1030 Grams (2.27 Pounds)

Fuel Pump Connections:
Inlet: M18 x 1.5
Outlet: M12 x 1.5
Electrical: Positive M6 / Negative M5
































Integrated Engineering / $225
Loose Bolts Motorsports / $180

Bosch 0 580 254 040 In Tank Fuel Pump

Bosch 040 fuel pumps are universal style in tank fuel pump replacements recommended for vehicles exceeding OE specifications. The Bosch 0-580-254-040 fuel pump is one of the only in tank fuel pump that can be compared with the Walbro 255LPH High Pressure series fuel pumps for use in vehicles with up to 700 horsepower. 

the bosch in-tank will not drop into a mk4 pump basket. The bosch in-tank is to be used for custom in-tank fuel feeds.

Bosch 040 Fuel Pump Specs:
Bosch Part Number: 0580254040
Minimum Current: 12 Volts
Operating Pressure: 94 PSI (6.5 Bar)
Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 80 GPH (300 LPH)
Fuel Pump Location: In Tank
High Temperature Reduction: 8 GPH (30 LPH)
Weight: 930 Grams (2.05 Pounds)

Fuel Pump Connections:
Inlet: Open Base
Outlet: M10 x 1.0
Electrical: Positive M6 / Negative M5








Bosch Fuel Pumps / $200
APR in-tank
Fits into the factory A4 platform (A4, TT, GTI, Jetta) and perhaps others (people fill me in here) stock fuel pump pickup. This is by far the EASIEST fueling upgrade as you don't have to do anything else. Just pull the stock fuel pump and drop this in for an instant fueling upgrade to fuel your project.

Supposedly link link the APR in-tank fuel pump finds its origins in the Audi TT225 model. For the TT225 APR stg3 GT2871r kit APR supplies an additional inline fuel pump which hints at the horsepower cap capable by this fuel pump alone. This makes me believe that this fuel pump is capable of supplying fuel for ~350HP. The TT225 is an AWD model and has a different gas tank and thus you can't just buy a TT225 fuel pump instead. APR modified the pickup to fit the FWD fuel tank.
Flows xxx liters/hour
Can sustain 44 PSI (3bar) fuel pressure (unconfirmed...)








MJM Autohaus / $200
Bosch Motorsports 413


USRT said:


> An elite-level part from Bosch Motorsports, flow is maintained at up to 8bar fuel pressure.











USRT/ $495
 Deatsch Werks DW300 In-Tank Pump








$169 @ Deatschwerks.com
Genesis Mk4 High-Flow Intank Pump


> This pump is a direct drop-in manufactured for Genesis by Siemens VDO. It is visually identical to the original factory parts and thusly uses the same factory fuel line, etc. The pump is already installed in a brand new surge tank which elminates any chance of fuel starvation when cornering. This solution is rated to support up to 400HP (at which point stock fuel lines become restrictive).




```
Genesis Mk4 Intank Pump Flow Rate	  
	  
PSIG	Amps	Lbs/Hr	Gal/Hr	Ltr/Hr	Ltr/Min	CC/Min	Flow Gain	  
40	 5.8	 176	 29.33	 111.04	 1.85	 1850.69	21.4%	  
45	 6	 164	 27.33	 103.47	 1.72	 1724.51	26.2%	  
50	 6.2	 148	 24.67	 93.38	 1.56	 1556.26	23.3%	  
55	 6.4	 136	 22.67	 85.8	 1.43	 1430.08	22.5%	  
60	 5.9	 151	 25.17	 95.27	 1.59	 1587.81	55.7%	  
65	 6.1	 142	 23.67	 89.59	 1.49	 1493.17	71.1%	  
70	 6.3	 132	 22	 83.28	 1.39	 1388.02	85.9%	  
	  	  	  	  	  	  
OEM Mk4 (non-R32/TT225) Intank Fuel Pump Flow Rate	
  	  	  	  
PSIG	Amps	Lbs/Hr	Gal/Hr	Ltr/Hr	Ltr/Min	CC/Min	  	  
40	 8	 145	 24.17	 91.48	 1.52	 1524.72	  	  
45	 8.4	 130	 21.67	 82.02	 1.37	 1366.99	  	  
50	 8.7	 120	 20	 75.71	 1.26	 1261.83	  	  
55	 8.9	 111	 18.5	 70.03	 1.17	 1167.2	  	  
60	 9.3	 97	 16.17	 61.2	 1.02	 1019.98	  	  
65	 9.4	 83	 13.83	 52.37	 0.87	 872.77	  	  
70	 9.7	 71	 11.83	 44.8	 0.75	 746.58	  
.
.
.
.
.
.
```










$249 @ USRT

Aeromotive A1000


USRT said:


> Built to aerospace standards, this is one serious pump. Use only with a fuel cell or resevoir-sumped fuel tank. -10AN fuel line to a pre-filter, -8AN to the fuel rail, and -6AN return line are required for best results.


The reason for the fuel cell/ res tank note is because this is a push-type pump. Not a push/ pull pump. It needs to be either fed, or gravity fed. It will not pull. It would also work well if you put a low pressure, high volume pump behind it.
A good example of this is Richard_Cranium's new build where he has a fuel cell and an A1000 under it at his front driver's side corner.








































USRT / $315
Walbro In-Tank
This pump has the same specs as the Walbro 255LPH listed above, but has the right casing to fit in the stock fuel tank. It's a drop in replacement for the OEM pump. The downside to it is it will have fuel starvation under high g loads. As per USRT,


USRT said:


> This single stage pump is only recommend for use in conjunction with a surge tank to eliminate fuel starvation problems at less then 1/4 tank. Fully-compatible with stock fuel lines.


USRT / $140
Walbro 400 LPH Fuel PUMP
NOT E85 compatible









Weldon
MagnaFuel
Fuelab 40401
Billet, comes with mounting bracket, designed to be quieter than most of the competition
Internal Speed Controller that is controllable via external PWM signal
[im]http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/richmedia/images/cover.gif[/img]
Amazon/ $384
Barry Grant


*[highlight]Fuel Pump Mounting Kits*[/highlight]


034 motorsports Bosch 044 / 005 In-Tank Mounting Kit








034 / $350 with 005 pump
Bosch 044 Bracket w/ Isolation Rubber








Tweakit Performance / $44
Bosch 044 Bracket - Stainless
T bolt style. Fits 60mm fuel pumps









Jay Racing / $35
Bosch 044 Bracket - Aluminum
Has 2 x M8x1.25 threaded holes on bottom for mounting








Jay Racing / $50
Aluminum 2" OD mounting bracket
Fits fuel filters such as Golan, aeromotive, weldon, K&N, Mr. Gasket, and others
Incorporates M8 or 5/16" socket head screw for clamping and mounting









$50 / Jay Racing

Generic 2.13" to 2.44" Mounting Bracket








Shown with a water pump instead...








Frozen Boost.com / $7
Universal Relay'd Fuel Pump Wiring Harness
Integrated Engineering / $65




*[highlight]Fuel Pressure Regulators*[/highlight]

Terminology:
rising rate FPR - Source: SpeedingG60

the way that works, is you set base pressure. i run ~56psi base. which is set static. fuel pump running with car off.\ so the fuel running out of thr injectors does not play a part in the equation. the rising rate fuel pressure regulator lets +1psi fuel for every +1psi boost. so when you are running 10psi with a 56psi base fuel pressure, the fuel pressure is 66 psi (to overcome the 10 psi positive pressure in the manifold to keep it at 56psi). but the fuel is still only 56psi.



RMR FPR Adapter
Allows Stock Bosch style FPR to convert to -6AN inlet/outlet. Very nice for hanging off the end of an aftermarket fuel rail








Integrated Engineering / $75
 Braun Brenner OEM FPR Adapter
Allows feed and return to both come off the FPR...this means your fuel rail can have one end capped off. Otherwise it's just like the RMR FPR adapter.
Stock








Integrated Engineering / $80
Aeromotive
Pressure Range (BAR): 2.85 - 6.65
Pressure (PSI): 30 - 70








USRT / $139
 Not sure who makes this???
Drops into stock Bosch FPR socket
Pressure Range (BAR): 3 - 5
Pressure Range (PSI): 43.5 - 72.5








USRT / $99
Fuelab 53501/ 53502 / 54501/ 54502
xxx01 is adjustable up to 125 PSI
xxx02 is custom pressure requirements
535xx is return line on bottom
545xx is return line on opposite side of feed line

You can also get a 515/525 regulator..but they do the same thing, weigh 50% more, and are larger



fuelab said:


> FUELAB® 535 Series Fuel Pressure Regulators have all the same great features as our 515 series, only smaller and weigh 50% less. They accept port style and non-port style union fittings without interference. Several configurations are available, supporting fuel injected applications up to 125 PSID. The 535 Series Fuel Pressure Regulator has a -6AN return port located on the bottom.
> Dimensions: 1.50” D x 2.00” W x 2.25” H
> Weighs Only: 5.25 oz.
> Fuel Pressure Regulator Features:
> ...











~$140 depending on exact model


*[highlight]Fuel Filters*[/highlight]

Rule of thumb with fuel filters...100 micron inlet, 10 micron out. This means put a 100 micron filter pre-fuel pump and a 10 micron filter post pump. The weak filter will save your fuel pump, the good filter will save your injectors. The aeromotive 10 micron and 100 micron filters are the same size so be careful not to mix them up.

If you are running E-85 you need a SS mesh element...but it's tricky. Look into the E-85 issues before going down this path.



 Aeromotive Fuel Filters
http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-filters/
Jegs Billet (Long) In-Line Fuel Filter


jegs said:


> CNC-machined from Billet aluminum and features a laser etched JEGS logo, 9" long x 2" diameter housing and built in AN fittings. No need to purchase adapters, just add your hose ends and go. Includes a 10-micron cellulose (gasoline only) element for applications up to 1000 HP. Available in blue or black anodized finish and -8AN or -10AN male fittings.











Jegs 555-150070 / $59
Jegs replacement fuel filter element for above fuel filter


jegs said:


> Replacement Element
> 10 Micron Cellulose (Paper) For Use With Gasoline Only
> Fits JEGS 555-150070, 555-150071, 555-150072, 555-150073; Russell Profilter 799-649000 and BG Inline 132-171043 & 132-171044 filter housings



















Jegs 555-150030 / $17


*[highlight]Surge Tanks*[/highlight]
Surge tanks are for high performance use.



 034 Motorsports Surge Tank
The 034Motorsport FP34 is the most advanced 044 fuel pump installation solution available, fully enclosing a Bosch 044 fuel pump inside a 1 liter reservoir, the FP34 allows flexible mounting location and optimal flow from the 044 pump.
















Example install of surge tank on mk4

$225 @ 034 motorsports

With Submerged Bosch 044 Pump
Outer Dimensions: 5.5" X 8" x 4.25"
3 x O ring boss -6 AN inlet/ outlets
Interior Volume 1.5L








Integrated Engineering / $199
With Submerged Dual Bosch 044 Pumps
Outer Dimensions: 4.25" x 6" x 8" (HxWxD)

























Integrated Engineering / $299
 Single 044 - For custom work








Integrated Engineering - $109
 Dual 044 - For custom work








Integrated Engineering - $149




*[highlight]Fuel Pressure Senders*[/highlight]
For use with electronic gauges. Very useful if you want a fuel pressure gauge in the cabin. The gauges that take a fuel line should not be brought into the cabin for safety reasons. If you need to look at the fuel pressure while driving then make the gauge exposed through the windshield and look from there.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*[highlight]Tools*[/highlight]
The stainless needs to be double annealed if you are doing double flares...or it will split.
Use these when you decide to work with hardline 


Rigid 345 Flaring Tool
For making 45 degree, SAE flares
Spec'd for soft copper, brass, aluminum and mild steel (JIC and Bundy) tubing








Snap on Tube cutter + double flaring SAE set








Snap On TF528D / $140
Summit Racing 37 degree flaring tool
Flare Tool, Single, 37 Degree Flare, Tube Sizes 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 1/2 in., Kit
This tool won't hold up for stainless. Use it for mild steel, aluminum, etc etc








Summit Racing SUM-900311 / $30
Imperial Eastman IMP 400-F , 37 degree flaring tool
This tool will do everything you want. Stainless Steel, Titanium, Aluminum, whatever....Great tool.


Newman Tools said:


> For 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8" O.D. tubing.
> 
> Forms 37o flares to Government Specifications in steel stainless steel (including MIL-T-6843), titanium and other metal tubing. Positive stopgauge assures correct size of flare. Special burnishing action polishes flare face. Three rollersin flaring cone rollout 37o above die block. Roller action cuts effort required; maintians original wall thickness-eliminates stress concentration. Extension on yoke for clamping in vise. Furnished in sturdy tool case.
> Conforms to Federal Specification GGG-F-451a. Type 1, Class 1, Style A.











Drill Spot / $400
XRP aluminum vise jaws.


> Designed to protect shape and finish of hose ends and fittings during hose assembly. Each jaw has a magnetic backing to hold it firmly in the vice. Sold in pairs.


http://www.goodvibesracing.com/moreinfo.php
$18.95
Jerry Bickels Roto Flair Tool
For 37 degree flares


Jerrybickel.com said:


> For easy, precise and blemish free flaring of tubing. O/S diameters of 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", an 3/4". Exact tube insertion height is controlled automatically for perfect fairs every time.











Jerry Bickel / $100
Mastercool 71480 , 37deg flaring and double flaring hydraulic kit
This will do all your 37 degree flares with ease








Automotive tools online / $220
Mastercool 72029 Reduced Friction Ball Bearing Tube Cutter








Automotive Tools Online / $21
Mastercool 70069 , 4-in-1 tube bender


automotive tools online said:


> Open side design slips over tube at any point. Makes smooth short radius bends up to 90 Degree with minimal effort. Calibrated to show angle of bend.
> Easy 90 Degree start requires much less effort to make fast and accurate bends. All metal multi-purpose tube bender for 3/16", 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8" 4 mm, 6 mm and 8 mm O.D. tubing











Automotive Tools Online / $20
AN Crimp Tools
Great list of AN tools by Earl
Earl AN Crimping Tool (requires below mentioned dies)
Earl 40-D031ERL
Crimping tool and dies are used to crimp the aluminum collar on Auto Crimp hose ends. Designed to give a maximum pressure rating to Auto-Crimp hose ends when using Pro-Lite hose. 








MPSRacing / $707
Earl AN Crimping Dies for Earl 40-D031ERL Crimping Tool
40-D03104ERL	Earl's Crimping Die Size 4AN	
40-D03106ERL	Earl's Crimping Die Size 6AN	
40-D03108ERL	Earl's Crimping Die Size 8AN	

Use the appropriate die for auto-crimp hose ends








MPSRacing / $96 per size
Earl Pressure Testing Kit
40-D016ERL

Every hose assembly should be pressure tested prior to installation. Earl's pressure test kit makes it easy to test field-assembled kits with either compressed air or nitrogen. Consists of fitting with air valve in each size and matching plugs.

Covers sizes 3 through 16.









MPSRacing / $157
Aluminum Vice Jaws
These handy vise jaw liners help prevent scratching of anodized aluminum hose ends during assembly. Internal magnets hold the extruded aluminum liners securely to most popular bench vises. The jaws are available in both of the standard jaw widths and are designed to hold almost any soft part without marking its surface. Earl's assembly department uses these jaws.

40-004ERL	Earl's Aluminum Vice Jaws - 3" Jaw Width
40-005ERL	Earl's Aluminum Vice Jaws - 5" Jaw Width








MPS Racing / ~$15
Rubber Tubing Assembly Lube
Earl's 40-184004ERL
Use this to get the rubber tubing onto the hose ends. Fuel tubing fits TIGHT








MPS Racing / $9


*[highlight]Fuel Pressure Gauges*[/highlight]
These are for engine side use only. Do not bring these gauges into the cabin.


Auto Meter #105-4363-M Sender + Gauge
















Jegs / $227
0-100 PSI Gauge
1.5" face








USRT / $20
0-120 PSI
Fuelab








VDO 0-60 PSI Gauge








Jegs 918-153008 / $22
VDO 0-100 PSI Gauge








Jegs 918-153003 / $20


*[highlight]Fuel Rails*[/highlight]


Racecraft
Baun Brenner


Braun Brenner said:


> VW / Audi 1.8T Fuel Rail Kit. This fuel rail bolts right in as a direct replacement of the inferior and restrictive factory rail. Larger passages for increased fuel flow. The aluminum body helps to keep the fuel cooler aiding in the prevention of detonation and increasing fuel system performance. Solid billet aluminum construction with O-ring port seals ensures leak free performance even under increased fuel pressure conditions. CNC Machined in-house from 6061-T6 aluminum. Brackets are laser cut and brake formed from stainless steel for a perfect fit and lasting quality every time. New! Includes XRP AN Fitting (Anodized Red/Blue) with o-ring seal. Optional FPR adapter and fpr shown in picture are not included.



























$145 @ Baun Brenner
RMR
7/12/10 - Note: This is a discontinued part. They are selling what they have and there are vendors here and there that carry it.

-6AN Inlet/Outlet


RMR Racing said:


> The 20v VW Fuel Rail is CNC machined from billet T6061 Aluminum stock and is made to replace your stock oem rail to provide you with more fuel flow for your high horsepower applications. This fuel rail is designed for the 1.8T engine and made to be used with either stock or Bosch Style Non-Stock Injectors (pictured).This is attainable due to the fact that we include machined spacers which allow you to space the rail in order to fit the bosch style injectors under the rail. Typical uses are for people doing programmable engine management where low impedance injectors are a must for idle quality.


Note: Images of Fuel Rail mounted are on an RMR 1.8t Intake Manifold (also out of production)
















































USRT 1.8t fuel rail


USRT said:


> Mounts to any stock or USRT short runner 1.8T intake manifold. Also fits USRT 16v short runner intake manifolds and USRT ITBs. Features a clear annodized finish to protect against the elements and alternative fuels. Kit includes rail, -6AN fittings with o-rings, stainless steel clamps, and stainless steel hardware. A smart choice for 300+ hp.











$125 / USRT



*[highlight]Fuel Injectors*[/highlight]
I created another thread to tackle this issue. It's worth a read here

*[highlight]Common Configurations*[/highlight]
Great Discussion on in-tank + other options



Adding a adjustable FPR + Electronic Fuel Pressure Gauge + Analog Fuel Pressure Gauge
Photos courtesy of Richard_Cranium








Adding an RMR Fuel Rail + RMR FPR Adapter to an otherwise factory setup
This is a common upgrade if you are changing your manifold. Most aftermarket manifolds won't accept the factory fuel rail. The SEM intake manifold is an exception to this, it will hold the factory fuel rail.
Adding a fuel rail to a heavily modded setup
Taken from Richard_Cranium's Setups...
-8AN into rail, and -6AN into the FPR and -6AN return to fuel cell. no issues.
or
-10AN into rail, and -6AN from rail to FPR and -6AN from FPR to cell. no issues. (Big flowing E-85 build with 1680cc injectors) (Fed from dual 044's)

Note: If you are going to run asymmetric fuel lines (intake vs. return) you need to be sure your return can handle the overflow from the FPR. If you don't take this into account you could potentially experience pressure surging on the fuel rail when the FPR can't dump the excess pressure enough. An example of this would be Richard's -10AN setup above. In my opinion, if he were running say 300cc injectors they wouldn't make a dent in that amount of fuel volume going into the fuel rail...thus, a lot of fuel would have to be returned via the return line. If the return line was largely undersized it would cause a pressure buildup in the fuel rail. Instead of say, 4BAR + 25 lbs of boost being sent to the injectors all the extra pressure would act as a base, so say 6BAR + 25 lbs of boost would hit the injectors causing you to run a very rich condition.

So in short, run asymmetric lines with care. If you don't know how to size, just run symmetric lines.
Adding an inline fuel pump to an otherwise factory setup
This is a common upgrade to sustain higher fuel pressures and larger flow rates.
...My question...If the stock pump flows x LPH and the inline pump flows y LPH, wouldn't you be limited to x LPH and you could only flow y LPH based on the amount of fuel sitting in the fuel line behind the inline pump?
Adding a surge tank + Inline
Low pressure in-tank pump feeds surge tank
In-line pump pulls fuel from surge tank
Return line from engine feeds main fuel tank
Courtesy of K20017
































VR6t Setup
Courtesy of K20017
































































Adding a surge tank + dual Inline
Low pressure in-tank pump feeds surge tank
Surge tank feeds each of the inline pumps
One way check valves come off each pump
Check valves go into a y-splitter
y-splitter feeds engine
Return line from engine feeds main fuel tank

From Richard Cranium's new Audi Build









































Getting ready for E85
It takes ~30% more E85 to reach the same power levels compared to unleaded gasoline. E85 runs like a high octane gas does, but it has a lower energy density so it takes more to do the same thing. It's like running a race fuel with the side benefit of making your MPG's go down the tubes (but far cheaper than race fuel).
Getting ready for a very powerful E85 build (>500 WHP)

Trunk mounted 034 motorsport / INA surge tank
Courtesy of: leonardodecappiccuno



















*[highlight]Car Specific*[/highlight]

*Mk1 GTI*


Richard_Cranium said:


> rabbit MK1 GTI the lines run from pass side rear tire area under the car up to the engine bay.
> 
> the problem area is the steering rack.
> 
> i did this a long time ago on mine, with 1/2" SS tubing. and the rack was the issue. i changed it to Summit twist tite style, and the rack ate the line on a hard turn. i was in the garage luckily, but still the $16/gal fuel it spilled hurt my ego LOL.




























[*]*Porsche 996 w/ E85 ... Dual '044 pumps ... gravity feed
Link
Link2

[*]Gravity Feed Pump w/ 044 
Courtesy of DieGTI


DieGTI said:



I run this unit to gravity feed my A1000 system using a stock lifter pump/sending unit. The capacity of this $72 surge tank is .75 gallons or 2.88 liters. The overflow to the fuel tank is the very top fitting so the tank utilizes maximum capacity.

Click to expand...




























[*]Custom fuel cell with dual 044 fuel pumps
This one is courtesy of newto20v

He plans on adding 90deg down bends from the interior filters to the bottom of the fuel cell. That way it'll have less chance of fuel starvation at lower fuel levels. He used the Integrated Engineering 044 tank plates and custom fab'd them into this fuel cell.



i sunk the two 044 pumps into the fuel cell. less fittings, more space, cool the pumps, quiet them down.

Click to expand...




































[/QUOTE]*


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

More example setups...

*One-Eight GTI's Setup*


> Well I have my new fuel lines hooked up at the manifold
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Thank baby jesus someone is finally doing this.


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

schwartzmagic said:


> Thank baby jesus someone is finally doing this.


Excellent information post...Thanks.


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

www.jayracing.com 

makes some very nice Bosch 044 Check Valves $50/pc


I also have seen on some various sources that the Aluminum Hard line isn't compatible for the pressures of a fuel injection system.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

moved...


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

this should be a sticky and we should all work on gathering information to make it a solid resources for the forums as a whole.:beer::thumbup:


----------



## 20thAEGti1009 (Jan 28, 2005)

The adapter to go from 5/16th's oem to -6AN will indeed fit the factory fuel line.


----------



## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

good reference!


----------



## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

Bosch 0 580 254 044 Inline Fuel Pump

Bosch 044 fuel pumps mount inline (out side of your gas tank), most commonly rear center under your car or truck. Each Bosch 044 inline fuel pump provides *300LPH* of flow and operate at 72.5 PSI. Bosch 044 fuel pumps are comparable to the Walbro 255LPH high pressure inline fuel pumps which can both support vehicles for up to 600-700 horse power. Can be used in sequence with an intank Walbro or Bosch 040 fuel pump.

Bosch 044 Fuel Pump Specs:
Bosch Part Number: 0 580 254 044
Minimum Current: 12 Volts
Operating Pressure: 72.5 PSI (5 Bar)
Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 80 GPH (300 LPH)
Fuel Pump Location: In-Line
High Temperature Reduction: 8 GPH (30 LPH)
Weight: 1030 Grams (2.27 Pounds)

Fuel Pump Connections:
Inlet: M18 x 1.5
*Outlet: M12 x 1.5*
Electrical: Positive M6 / Negative M5

Sourced from www.boschfuelpumps.com


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Dub-Nub said:


> Bosch 0 580 254 044 Inline Fuel Pump
> 
> Bosch 044 fuel pumps mount inline (out side of your gas tank), most commonly rear center under your car or truck. Each Bosch 044 inline fuel pump provides *300LPH* of flow and operate at 72.5 PSI. Bosch 044 fuel pumps are comparable to the Walbro 255LPH high pressure inline fuel pumps which can both support vehicles for up to 600-700 horse power. Can be used in sequence with an intank Walbro or Bosch 040 fuel pump.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Added that in. Also, added some additional 044 info, info on the walbro's, and some bits here and there.

If anyone can chime in on any of the sections that very much need work please do. I'll edit your responses into the main posts.

Thanks.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

moved....


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Bump. Added gauges, more fuel pump specific fittings, some adapters, more fuel pumps, adj FPRs, and fixed a few typos

Can anyone answer any of the questions in post # 15?


----------



## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

groggory said:


> Questions:
> 
> Can aluminum tubing be used for the fueling inlet? *not usually as it does not have the pressure capabilities needed.*
> 
> ...


*that said, this was a very well thought out post.

i use the Jay Racing check valves.... good product.

this forum needs more of this type of stuff really.*

*the best price on 044's i have found, for REAL 044's, is LooseBoltsMotorsports.com. i run dual 044's with Jay Racing check valves into -10AN and on to the fuel rail.*

*a few more parts you can add is Racecraft fuel rails, and Fuelab FPR's. 

you have to watch FPRs as the Aeromotive stuff is not super high pressure compatible. also, Weldon, MagnaFuel, Fuelab, Barry Grant, many other pumps available as well. 

then there is filters, and material and sizing of the elements. rule of thumb is 100 micron in and 10 micron out. but when you get to E-85 where you need a SS mesh element, it gets tricky.

you also need to be aware of what pump can handle what fuel. 

also the injectors, what fuels can they handle? but i guess injectors would be a WHOLE DIFFERENT thread, now, wouldnt they? LOL*

*one can also use SS hard line tubing for fueling needs. it has tremendous pressure handling capabilities, looks nice, and is not very expensive. much like what i run on my wastegate control lines. it takes some skill to be a good bender, but you can do alot with it with some practice.*

*a few other tips? get a set of the vice jaws if you plan to do any major amount of SS braided line assembling. worh the 35 bucks or whatever.

and when cutting the braided line, i wrap it a few times TIGHT with electrical tape, then cut it with a thin blade on a grinder. take some snips (i like green for this) and trim the little pokies off and it goes right in the fitting with no frays. you can believe me on this or not; i have assembled many many braided AN lines for these past two race cars of mine.

lastly, you MUST PAY ATTENTION to the instructions with certain fuel pumps. not all of them are "pull" type. the A-1000 is the first that comes to mind. it is a "pusher" type pump, and needs to be gravity fed or pumped to feed it. it "may" run for a bit pulling fuel, but it wont last for long. some are pull-type pumps that can pull fuel as well as push. then there is the low-pressure high flow versus high pressure pumps as well. if using inline pumps and a surge tank, it would be good for a low pressure high flow pump to feed the surge, and then high pressure out of the surge to the motor. this way the surge is always full.*


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Lots of updates.

Questions below still remain.

I've put a lot of time into this post so please give it a read-through to check for accuracy. Looks pretty good to me so far though.

Questions:


What path in a Corrado do the fuel lines run (In case of total replacement)? Any notes on install ?(estimated line lengths, problem areas, etc etc)

What path in a mk1 golf/ GTI do the fuel lines run (In case of total replacement)? Any notes on install ?(estimated line lengths, problem areas, etc etc)

What path in a mk2 golf/ GTI do the fuel lines run (In case of total replacement)? Any notes on install ?(estimated line lengths, problem areas, etc etc)

What path in a mk3 golf/ GTI do the fuel lines run (In case of total replacement)? Any notes on install ?(estimated line lengths, problem areas, etc etc)

What path in a mk4 golf/ GTI do the fuel lines run (In case of total replacement)? Any notes on install ?(estimated line lengths, problem areas, etc etc)

What path in a b5 Passat/ A4 do the fuel lines run (In case of total replacement)?
Any notes on install ?(estimated line lengths, problem areas, etc etc)

Of the fuel pumps that I have listed, which pumps would you recommend for what applications?

How does the bosch 413 stack up to dual bosch 044's?


----------



## i2ickei242 (May 31, 2004)

THANK YOU!!!! :thumbup:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Wow! I was over on fuelab's website looking at their fuel pumps (very nice, btw) and I never realized fuel pumps draw such huge amounts of current....Especially at high pressure levels.

I really like their feature that lets you tune the pressure level so you aren't pulling full current all the time (and so you aren't pushing tons of fuel through your return line hose).

Cool stuff.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Bump.

I'm still working on making this thread better. Been adding more products and information.

Could use some links to additional fuel rails for the 1.8t.

Could use some more pics of installed aftermarket fuel systems with mention of what car it is and any notes about the install. Parts, difficult situations, success, problems, etc.

Any notes on any of the parts I've mentioned. Have you had success with them? Failure with them? Etc?

If this is going to be a good reference post I need to make sure all of the information is sound so I don't send 'students' out into the world with incorrect facts.

Thanks for helping me to make this a better 1.8t forum!


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

On this picture..









Why do you have filters on both the inlet and the outlet of the pump? I assume the inlet is to protect the pump and the outlet is to protect the motor.

Also I assume that you can put a mediocre filter on the inlet and a very good filter on the outlet.

For instance, one of the little stubby 100 micron jegs filters on the inlets and one of the huge 6 micron filters on the outlet?


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

*Why isn't this a sticky?*

Now why isn't this a sticky by now? there is an enormous amount of information shared here and it is very valuable to the entire 1.8 community. Please consider it for a sticky. 

This is very helpful as well...


> then there is filters, and material and sizing of the elements. rule of thumb is 100 micron in and 10 micron out. but when you get to E-85 where you need a SS mesh element, it gets tricky.


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

gtimitch said:


> Now why isn't this a sticky by now? there is an enormous amount of information shared here and it is very valuable to the entire 1.8 community. Please consider it for a sticky.


 
X 2


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

schwartzmagic said:


> X 2


Moderators, this is valuable, please place it as a sticky.

We have good moderators but we may need to get their attention.... hmmmmm - I think we have moderators????


----------



## newto20v (Feb 26, 2010)

groggory said:


> Why do you have filters on both the inlet and the outlet of the pump? I assume the inlet is to protect the pump and the outlet is to protect the motor. *Correct. this is per the fuel pump instructions. this was, BTW, the new-old build. the last iteration of the drag rabbit.*
> 
> Also I assume that you can put a mediocre filter on the inlet and a very good filter on the outlet. *again, true. the 100 micron in is to get the big stuff.... the 10 micron out is to get the rest. and then, Methanol and Ethanol take a different filter element.*
> 
> For instance, one of the little stubby 100 micron jegs filters on the inlets and one of the huge 6 micron filters on the outlet?



and to update ya, Integrated Engineering also offers the 044 end plates separately as well, if you are doing custom work. here is my latest fuel cell, i sunk the two 044 pumps into the fuel cell. less fittings, more space, cool the pumps, quiet them down. 

i will be putting 90 deg fittings on the inlets, so they pull from the lowest point. just progress pix....

another little tidbit of advice. when using pumps like the 044 and the A1000, its a good idea to make a plug setup like pictured here. this way you do not strip the bolts, or unloosen them. i had this happen once to an SX fuel pump. was disappointed, too. that setup is pictured up above under the rabbit.

and yeah, the Aeroquip socketless is a real pain in the ass to work with. i have a very expensive chunk of "tired of dealing with that stuff" on a shelf LOL.


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

Bump for a sticky........


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Cool. Thanks.

Also, updated the post with more setup pics and notes.


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

>


I am not sure this is right?

I think the Bosch 044 should be between the rail and the surge tank. In this picture it would be pushing fuel into the Surge Tank.

FPR always goes on the return side doesn't it?


----------



## newto20v (Feb 26, 2010)

ya, that looks wrong to me, too.

i've always done it FPR after rail.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

newto20v said:


> ya, that looks wrong to me, too.
> 
> i've always done it FPR after rail.


Good call.

The way that drawing was done it would leave the line pre fuel rail very nicely regulated...but the fuel rail itself would have no regulation. It would be freely dumping back into the gas tank return line.

I'll update that drawing.

Thanks.


----------



## newto20v (Feb 26, 2010)

side inlet of the FPR after the rail. 
cap the other side of the FPR. 
return to surge from bottom of FPR.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

newto20v said:


> side inlet of the FPR after the rail.
> cap the other side of the FPR.
> return to surge from bottom of FPR.


Made the modifications.

Thanks.


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

look at aaron stealing all my credit 

JK. :beer:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

ejg3855 said:


> look at aaron stealing all my credit
> 
> JK. :beer:


You made the fix. He chimed in with specifics to that particular aFPR. Win Win.

This thing has become really detailed over time. Maybe if I ever have some time I'll draft it all up into a nice PDF with properly scaled images, good typeset, and all that.

Thanks again for all the input. I think anyone going BT should consider this a must-read at this point.


----------



## newto20v (Feb 26, 2010)

i like these better for assembling hoses. they fit all size fittings.....

http://www.goodvibesracing.com/Specialty_Engine_Tools.htm


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

newto20v said:


> i like these better for assembling hoses. they fit all size fittings.....
> 
> http://www.goodvibesracing.com/Specialty_Engine_Tools.htm


Could you write up a quick tutorial on what's involved in using that tool? I've never used one, but definitely looks like a good tool.


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

groggory said:


> You made the fix. He chimed in with specifics to that particular aFPR. Win Win.
> 
> This thing has become really detailed over time. Maybe if I ever have some time I'll draft it all up into a nice PDF with properly scaled images, good typeset, and all that.
> 
> Thanks again for all the input. I think anyone going BT should consider this a must-read at this point.


:thumbup:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Added vice crimp tools that Aaron suggested.


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I need to get one of those cause all my pushlocks are looking pretty ghetto. I cut the majority of my initial ones out and tried rerouting stuff some time ago and I had a time and a half getting the hose on.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

screwball said:


> I need to get one of those cause all my pushlocks are looking pretty ghetto. I cut the majority of my initial ones out and tried rerouting stuff some time ago and I had a time and a half getting the hose on.


Did you use any lube? I have some nice jeg's lube up top for getting the hose onto the fittings.

If it's too tight, just use some lube. You'll make it work.


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Original: 
Rule of thumb with fuel filters...100 micron inlet, 10 micron out. This means put a 10 micron filter pre-fuel pump and a 100 micron filter post pump. The weak filter will save your filter, the good filter will save your injectors. This is handy because 100 micron filters and small and compact. 10 micron filters are large and bulky.

could you update this?

Taken from the aeromotive catalog

"• 100-micron filters are designed for use between the fuel pump and fuel tank to protect the pump.
• 10-micron filters may ONLY be used after the fuel pump to protect your injectors or carburetor. "

Fixed:

Rule of thumb with fuel filters...100 micron inlet, 10 micron out. This means put a 100 micron filter pre-fuel pump and a 10 micron filter post pump. The weak filter will save your fuel pump, the good filter will save your injectors. The aeromotive 10 micron and 100 micron filters are the same size so be careful not to mix them up.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

derekb727 said:


> Original:
> Rule of thumb with fuel filters...100 micron inlet, 10 micron out. This means put a 10 micron filter pre-fuel pump and a 100 micron filter post pump. The weak filter will save your filter, the good filter will save your injectors. This is handy because 100 micron filters and small and compact. 10 micron filters are large and bulky.
> 
> could you update this?
> ...


updated


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

speeding g-60 said:


> do you understand totally a rising rate FPR?
> 
> the way that works, is you set base pressure. i run ~56psi base. which is set static. fuel pump running with car off.\ so the fuel running out of thr injectors does not play a part in the equation. the rising rate fuel pressure regulator lets +1psi fuel for every +1psi boost. so when you are running 10psi with a 56psi base fuel pressure, the fuel pressure is 66 psi (to overcome the 10 psi positive pressure in the manifold to keep it at 56psi). but the fuel is still only 56psi.



good stuff here thanks to aaron


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

derekb727 said:


> good stuff here thanks to aaron


updated.


----------



## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

Bump for a BAD ASS thread. :thumbup:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Andaloons said:


> Bump for a BAD ASS thread. :thumbup:


Thanks. A lot of hours went into it and many very smart people contributed.
:wave:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Updated to cross link to my Water/ Meth and injectors threads. (more great threads btw that could use some more lovin')


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Bump.

Added badger-5 Bosch 044 / OEM style adapters.
I need to add pricing to that listing.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Bump.

Added more fittings, cleaned up a few things and added some more cross referenced posts.
Added pricing for Badger-5's awesome fittings. With his fittings you can very easily add a Bosch 044 inline pump in the location of the stock fuel filter and use the stock fuel lines and fittings! Very trick.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

A question about fuel pressure.

On a stock 3bar fuel system like most of us around here, if you were to hook a fuel pressure gauge up, what does the reading look like through all the common phases of the engine. (not just readings, but if it bounces around, or is smooth, or what). I've never hooked one up to look but someone on here was asking a question the other day and I realized I don't know the answer.

1) You left your car in the driveway overnight. Gauge says...

2) You open the car door. You hear the pump prime. Gauge says...

3) You turn the key to the ignition ON phase. Gauge says...

4) You crank the engine and the car turns over. Gauge says...

5) You rev the car while in idle. Gauge says...

6) You go for a drive and you don't really get into it (


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

groggory said:


> A question about fuel pressure.
> 
> On a stock 3bar fuel system like most of us around here, if you were to hook a fuel pressure gauge up, what does the reading look like through all the common phases of the engine. (not just readings, but if it bounces around, or is smooth, or what). I've never hooked one up to look but someone on here was asking a question the other day and I realized I don't know the answer.
> 
> ...


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

derekb727 said:


> 9) at steady 3000rpm free rev gauge says


You and your 3am posts :sly: lol


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

16plus4v said:


> You and your 3am posts :sly: lol


Dont forget... I am 8 Hours ahead of you there back the Eastern Time Zone in North America!


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

^^ bump


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

^^ bump to have some questions answered

A question about fuel pressure.

On a stock 3bar fuel system like most of us around here, if you were to hook a fuel pressure gauge up, what does the reading look like through all the common phases of the engine. (not just readings, but if it bounces around, or is smooth, or what). I've never hooked one up to look but someone on here was asking a question the other day and I realized I don't know the answer.

1) You left your car in the driveway overnight. Gauge says...

2) You open the car door. You hear the pump prime. Gauge says...

3) You turn the key to the ignition ON phase. Gauge says...

4) You crank the engine and the car turns over. Gauge says...

5) You rev the car while in idle. Gauge says...

6) You go for a drive and you don't really get into it (


----------



## jsofit2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Have a problem I can't figure out what fittings to use to convert to oem fuel lines off of the intank pump to an lines??


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The aluminum adapter in my 2nd post from summit should do it.... But sounds like a crazy tight fit in the oem pump area.


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Will a bosch intank fuel pump drop into stock fuel pump assembly? Or would there have to be modifications to the housing.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Budsdubbin said:


> Will a bosch intank fuel pump drop into stock fuel pump assembly? Or would there have to be modifications to the housing.


 No, the bosch in-tank will not drop into a mk4 pump basket. The bosch in-tank is to be used for custom in-tank fuel feeds.


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

So theres no direct pump replacement for the 1.8t intank? Whats my best option here... I already have a walbro inline hooked up I just have reason to believe the intank is beginning to choke on me.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Budsdubbin said:


> So theres no direct pump replacement for the 1.8t intank? Whats my best option here... I already have a walbro inline hooked up I just have reason to believe the intank is beginning to choke on me.


 The APR drop in replacement works great and drops into the OEM basket with no modification. 

The APR unit is basically an Audi TT225 fuel pump that has been modified to fit the mk4 basket.


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm pretty tech savy (used to be a tech for VW), I was simply wondering if it was possible to get the intank 255 walbro or 040 bosch in the stock basket.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Budsdubbin said:


> I'm pretty tech savy (used to be a tech for VW), I was simply wondering if it was possible to get the intank 255 walbro or 040 bosch in the stock basket.


 The 040 won't fit. 

The walbro intank will fit but you may fuel starve under hard cornering and/or low fuel levels. 

For the stock tank my advice is the APR pump. It's good for an easy 350WHP by itself. If you are using it to feed an inline it's good for even more.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Updated:

Link to example install of 034 motorsports inline surge tank with lots of pictures :thumbup:


----------



## dococ (Feb 22, 2008)

groggory said:


> [*]AN Crimp
> I don't know what this crimps on to? Stainless braided? Rubber? Aeroquip specific?
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure if these are crimpable - my experience with these is on Porsches: 356, early 911 & 912s. They are cadmium plated steel and were used on fabric braided rubber fuel hose when it was fitted over a straight steel fuel line with a single collar or rounded lip on the open end. It was never crimped. 
Fitting this on the end of the rubber hose and then trying to force it onto that rounded lip line was a pain. Putting this onto the steel line and then trying to force the rubber line into it was even worse. But once on, it never came off unless you cut it off or the rubber deteriorated enough to crumble. Fuel pressures on these lines (carburetored fuel metering) was never more than 5 PSI.


----------



## _qWERTY (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm almost done wrapping up my fuel system but how do I connect my braided stainless lines to the stock fuel pump? What fittings do I need? I have an 8an feed and a 6an return.


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

Summit has what you need they are in this guide


----------



## _qWERTY (Jul 28, 2008)

So what do I need? Tube sleeves? That says for connecting an to hard-lines. All the hardlines are coming out


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

_qWERTY said:


> So what do I need? Tube sleeves? That says for connecting an to hard-lines. All the hardlines are coming out


oh i didnt see your picture on tapatalk. you need stainless to barbs... let me ponder.


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

I am not sure what pressure those are rated for ....


I would just suggest terminating with a barb and using a small runner of hose with a clamp.


----------



## _qWERTY (Jul 28, 2008)

.


----------



## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

on a awd tt 225ps if you keep the stock in tank fuel pump and add at the filter position a bosch 044 will you have starvation below the 1/4?????


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

audis3gr said:


> on a awd tt 225ps if you keep the stock in tank fuel pump and add at the filter position a bosch 044 will you have starvation below the 1/4?????


Nope.

However, if you do that don't forget to add a 10 micron or better filter befor the fuel line


----------



## rains (May 30, 2008)

thank you for this :beer:


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

So, if I wanted to use my stock fuel pump to feed a surge tank, would I be fine just using the stock fuel line to feed the surge tank? Could I get away with using the stock fuel pump feeding into a Bosch 044 inline (with stock fuel filter before the inline pump)? This setup will be to support 700+hp.

And lastly, where did you find the Integrated Engineering surge tank (without pump) for $199?


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Chris164935 said:


> So, if I wanted to use my stock fuel pump to feed a surge tank, would I be fine just using the stock fuel line to feed the surge tank? Could I get away with using the stock fuel pump feeding into a Bosch 044 inline (with stock fuel filter before the inline pump)? This setup will be to support 700+hp.
> 
> And lastly, where did you find the Integrated Engineering surge tank (without pump) for $199?


So, has this thread, like, reached its maximum information output or something? :laugh:
Bump.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chris164935 said:


> So, if I wanted to use my stock fuel pump to feed a surge tank, would I be fine just using the stock fuel line to feed the surge tank? Could I get away with using the stock fuel pump feeding into a Bosch 044 inline (with stock fuel filter before the inline pump)? This setup will be to support 700+hp.
> 
> And lastly, where did you find the Integrated Engineering surge tank (without pump) for $199?


stock fuel pump can feed a surge tank just fine at most any power level

stock fuel lines can feed the surge tank

I'm not a big fan of inline pumps..but you could go pump -> filter -> 044 ...and it'd work... But I'd recommend to go with a surge tank instead. Just seems like a much smarter setup.

I got the $199 off their website. Maybe that was an intro price. I don't know what it is now.

PS... IE and INA both make great surge tanks...but they fit different applications. So pick the one that suits your build best.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> A question about fuel pressure.
> 
> On a stock 3bar fuel system like most of us around here, if you were to hook a fuel pressure gauge up, what does the reading look like through all the common phases of the engine. (not just readings, but if it bounces around, or is smooth, or what). I've never hooked one up to look but someone on here was asking a question the other day and I realized I don't know the answer.
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

groggory said:


> stock fuel pump can feed a surge tank just fine at most any power level
> 
> stock fuel lines can feed the surge tank
> 
> ...


Thanks.
Yeah, I was planning on a surge tank, but was curious if the other setup would work or not. I am aiming for a simple setup, but still want reliability.


----------



## GLiMKIV (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm looking to move my Bosch 044 to the fuel filter location however when I go to lookup the fittings on the badger-5.com site I do not see it. Can anybody tell me if those fittings/adapters are available elsewhere? If they are not available, would it be possible to just run 5/16 high pressure fuel line from the back all the way up to the front?

Thank you


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

GLiMKIV said:


> I'm looking to move my Bosch 044 to the fuel filter location however when I go to lookup the fittings on the badger-5.com site I do not see it. Can anybody tell me if those fittings/adapters are available elsewhere? If they are not available, would it be possible to just run 5/16 high pressure fuel line from the back all the way up to the front?
> 
> Thank you


Just curious, but what filter are you planning on running for your setup and where are you going to mount it?


----------



## GLiMKIV (Nov 12, 2006)

groggory said:


> Just curious, but what filter are you planning on running for your setup and where are you going to mount it?


I would like to use the original fuel lines if possible and then put a fuel filter inline. Just trying to clean up the engine bay a little more.


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Does anyone know the fittings required to run AN fittings for this A4 fuel filter?

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Search/Fuel_Filter/ES258818/


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Just an update to the above.

the two fittings that you need are m12x1.5 and m14x1.5 with whatever AN size you want on the other I went with -6an.

I will post a picture up if I remember


----------



## OLD GHOST (Mar 7, 2003)

just an FYI: Went to Summit yesterday to grab the Aeromotive 15117 fitting an it would not lock on to the stock MANN filter. :banghead:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

OLD GHOST said:


> just an FYI: Went to Summit yesterday to grab the Aeromotive 15117 fitting an it would not lock on to the stock MANN filter. :banghead:


This part works:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-640863/


----------



## OLD GHOST (Mar 7, 2003)

thanks. saw that one in another thread. now what do you recommend for the 90 degree to the stock fuel line? 



groggory said:


> This part works:
> 
> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-640863/


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

OLD GHOST said:


> thanks. saw that one in another thread. now what do you recommend for the 90 degree to the stock fuel line?


What are you trying to do exactly?

If you're running the stock fuel line, why not just run 5/16" fuel hose from the factory fittings and be done with it?

...

Good option for factory hose...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...OEM-Bundy-Fuel-Fittings-(45-90-and-180-degree)!!!

Otherwise, if you've already converted the lines to -6AN male, then get a -6AN Female -> barb fittings

...

Again, what are you trying to do?


----------



## OLD GHOST (Mar 7, 2003)

just want to replace one connector (filter side) could not locate a replacement (napa/autozone) so i was going to make one. However the C2 link looks like all i need. Thanks! :beer:



groggory said:


> What are you trying to do exactly?
> 
> If you're running the stock fuel line, why not just run 5/16" fuel hose from the factory fittings and be done with it?
> 
> ...


----------



## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

This is an excellent thread. I am almost done with my full stainless line conversion (hard and soft). This would have saved me a BIT of time. 

Share this.


----------



## jetta021.8t (Feb 13, 2009)

I know this thread is a little old but...

Is it a big deal if I don't change the line form the stock pump to the filter and just run a 3/8" line the rest of the way?

If I need to run that line what is the best line to use? Looking at doin the rest in stainless hard line.

Is it fine to leave the stock return line or should that go bigger?

At what point should I be looking at a surge tank ?hp? I'm just over 400whp like to go more.

Thank you for any help..


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

jetta021.8t said:


> I know this thread is a little old but...
> 
> Is it a big deal if I don't change the line form the stock pump to the filter and just run a 3/8" line the rest of the way?
> 
> ...


I'd run stock lines to the bay

Then in bay surge tank


----------



## jetta021.8t (Feb 13, 2009)

Would that line be big enough to keep it filled and how safe is it to have that there on a daily drive car? I do run the inline walbro up there but I'm look at moving it back to the filter location.
Problem I'm having is leaning out as I get pass 25psi (a/f 13.4) .. Not sure if its a line issue or I need bigger pump , surge tank, or bigger injectors


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Your lean out issue must be diagnosed.

Go start your own thread with a detailed overview of everything and lets go from there.


Ps... 5/16" (stock) lines can flow a lot


----------



## jetta021.8t (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok thanks for the help


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

jetta021.8t said:


> Ok thanks for the help


No problem

Well get you sorted.

Just be patient


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

groggory said:


> This part works:
> 
> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-640863/


I'm a bit confused....does this go on the barbed like oem quick connectors or straight onto the pipe itself like a pneumatic fitting?

I would like to ideally join into the oem plastic lines just low enough to be out of sight in the bay or underneath the car?

Cheers


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

StaceyS3 said:


> I'm a bit confused....does this go on the barbed like oem quick connectors or straight onto the pipe itself like a pneumatic fitting?
> 
> I would like to ideally join into the oem plastic lines just low enough to be out of sight in the bay or underneath the car?
> 
> Cheers


They hook over the OEM fuel line... You cannot cut the OEM line or anything to make it shorter as they need the little lip thats on it to hook up properly, loks like this when on the Fuel line





















Hope this helps you:thumbup:


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Cheers for the reply, that's answered my question :beer:

Does anyone know of any fittings that can be used to cut the oem line and connect to it

Cheers


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

StaceyS3 said:


> Cheers for the reply, that's answered my question :beer:
> 
> Does anyone know of any fittings that can be used to cut the oem line and connect to it
> 
> Cheers


Once you've cut the OEM line, what would you like to connect to it?


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Would like to go to -6AN fittings which will feed my surge tank but was just hoping to have the join out of sight


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

StaceyS3 said:


> Would like to go to -6AN fittings which will feed my surge tank but was just hoping to have the join out of sight


Contact USRT, I think they have that in aluminum


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

the stock line is 5/16 id or od?i planning to change the fuel feed line with a 8mm id hose and keep the stock fuel rail,is this setup capable for 600hp at 1.8t?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

audis3gr said:


> the stock line is 5/16 id or od?i planning to change the fuel feed line with a 8mm id hose and keep the stock fuel rail,is this setup capable for 600hp at 1.8t?


Stock black nylon fuel line is:
ID: 0.2195	
OD: 0.3125

I would recommend an aftermarket fuel rail for a high horsepower build. Huge injectors and small common rail piping can lead to some funniness. IE, 034, BaunBrenner, etc all offer -6 and -8 rails...

The stock fuel line can handle it, but you must take into account pressure losses from the pump to the fuel rail.

What kind of car are you building this in? The best path is kind of different depending on platform.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

audis3gr said:


> the stock line is 5/16 id or od?i planning to change the fuel feed line with a 8mm id hose and keep the stock fuel rail,is this setup capable for 600hp at 1.8t?


Stock black nylon fuel line is:
ID: 0.2195	
OD: 0.3125

I would recommend an aftermarket fuel rail for a high horsepower build. Huge injectors and small common rail piping can lead to some funniness. IE, 034, BaunBrenner, etc all offer -6 and -8 rails...

The stock fuel line can handle it, but you must take into account pressure losses from the pump to the fuel rail.

What kind of car are you building this in? The best path is kind of different depending on platform.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

groggory said:


> Stock black nylon fuel line is:
> ID: 0.2195
> OD: 0.3125
> 
> ...


the chassis is an audi s3 2001 ,im thinking to pass the new linew from the oem paths,i m planning to put an 8mm id fuel hose 17mm od,flame protected and no gas vapors,the hoses are marine grade 

http://www.advancedfluidsolutions.c...uel-hose-a1-iso-7840-petrol--diesel-585-p.asp

or that kind of hose with higher safety factor
http://www.alsaflex.lt/en/products/...products/hose-for-fuel-petrol-and-oil-8mm.htm


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Sounds like a solid plan.

It's tricky routing those 'rubber' hoses in the frame rail and wiggling it up to the fuel tank.

Don't forget to secure the hose to the chassis along the long path so it doesn't drape at all. Keep it all secure. Add protection as necessary so that any chafing cannot eventually slice through the hose.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

i l secure the hoses to the chasis and cover them with flame protective blanket,at the fuel tank i have an fittings(bulkhead)to connect so there is no problem routing them..i l not use ptfe hoses cause they are a pain in the ass to route 
the oem fuel rail has 6mm id right?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

audis3gr said:


> i l secure the hoses to the chasis and cover them with flame protective blanket,at the fuel tank i have an fittings(bulkhead)to connect so there is no problem routing them..i l not use ptfe hoses cause they are a pain in the ass to route
> the oem fuel rail has 6mm id right?


The OEM fuel rail is 8mm OD. 6mm sounds about right for the ID of the OEM fuel rail.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

groggory said:


> The OEM fuel rail is 8mm OD. 6mm sounds about right for the ID of the OEM fuel rail.


do you have any tip to avoid gas vapours inside the car and to avoid the smell of gas?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

audis3gr said:


> do you have any tip to avoid gas vapours inside the car and to avoid the smell of gas?


During the install? Lol. I dunno, try not to spill a lot of gas. Have a fan near during installation?

When you pull your oem lines from the tank make sure to pull through a leader line to help with your parker hose install


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Just curious as to why you are changing the lines. You aren't improving anything


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

woodywoods86 said:


> Just curious as to why you are changing the lines. You aren't improving anything


If he's going to run a 600 hp capable in-tank fuel pump I bet the upgraded lines will really cut down on back pressure.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

groggory said:


> If he's going to run a 600 hp capable in-tank fuel pump I bet the upgraded lines will really cut down on back pressure.


Right, I understand that need. But he said is going to 8mm hose which is basically 5/16" hose (7.9 mm). OEM lines are 5/16" hose. He should at least be looking at 3/8" (-6AN (9.5mm)). Correct?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

woodywoods86 said:


> Right, I understand that need. But he said is going to 8mm hose which is basically 5/16" hose (7.9 mm). OEM lines are 5/16" hose. He should at least be looking at 3/8" (-6AN (9.5mm)). Correct?


He's talking about 5/16" ID hose. Oem lines are somewhere around .220" id lines


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

groggory said:


> He's talking about 5/16" ID hose. Oem lines are somewhere around .220" id lines


Then why it referred to as 5/16" oem hose. I thought for hose was labeled by its ID.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

For hard lines they refer to od ,for tubes and braided hoses they refer to id,i have 1 aem 320lt plus 1 oem tfsi pump,i have 9.5mm id hose till the filter,and 8mm from the filter to the rail!
The car will max out a pte 6162 bb turbo at 2.5bar and 8500rpm!


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

groggory said:


> During the install? Lol. I dunno, try not to spill a lot of gas. Have a fan near during installation?
> 
> When you pull your oem lines from the tank make sure to pull through a leader line to help with your parker hose install


A tip t avoid fuel smels after the instalation,some friends have braided ptfe hoses and have fuel smel without have leaking,and i read that from all the hoses leave hydrocarbon to escape,except the stanless steel hard lines but they are pain to work with!


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## bizad (Mar 22, 2009)

ANyone know if the B5 A4 1.8t fuel lines are like the Mk4?

I want to use these to convert hardline to AN for fuel rail:
Aeromotive 15117, Russel 640863, Russel 644113 or even I.E's one: http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-factory-vw-audi-quick-release-6an


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

bizad said:


> ANyone know if the B5 A4 1.8t fuel lines are like the Mk4?
> 
> I want to use these to convert hardline to AN for fuel rail:
> Aeromotive 15117, Russel 640863, Russel 644113 or even I.E's one: http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-factory-vw-audi-quick-release-6an


B5/b6 lines are very similar to a4 chassis fuel lines.

Those ie fittings are what you want. I have the russels and they fit SOOO tight you think you're gonna break your oem line getting them on. The IE fitting screws on to make the connection. Very superior


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

bizad said:


> ANyone know if the B5 A4 1.8t fuel lines are like the Mk4?
> 
> I want to use these to convert hardline to AN for fuel rail:
> Aeromotive 15117, Russel 640863, Russel 644113 or even I.E's one: http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-factory-vw-audi-quick-release-6an





groggory said:


> B5/b6 lines are very similar to a4 chassis fuel lines.
> 
> Those ie fittings are what you want. I have the russels and they fit SOOO tight you think you're gonna break your oem line getting them on. The IE fitting screws on to make the connection. Very superior


If your B5 is anything like mine, which it probably is, you can just run hardlines. There are no quick disconnect push buttons. The OEM lines have a one time use clamp on the pump, Banjo fittings for the filter, and -6an to the fuel rail. I wanna say both, feed and return, are AN but I would have to look again.

Where are you starting the hardlines at?


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## bizad (Mar 22, 2009)

woodywoods86 said:


> If your B5 is anything like mine, which it probably is, you can just run hardlines. There are no quick disconnect push buttons. The OEM lines have a one time use clamp on the pump, Banjo fittings for the filter, and -6an to the fuel rail. I wanna say both, feed and return, are AN but I would have to look again.
> 
> Where are you starting the hardlines at?


Only for the fuel rail, so, that is after the hardlines enter the engine bay. By pics I've seen of the MK4 Golf, they have these:








If the B5 is identical, then I'm good to use that adapter and eliminate the use of barb to AN fittings. But if there is no quick connect fitting from the hardlines to hoses of the fuel rail, then it won't work. I just don't know since I still haven't got my car back from shop.:facepalm:


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

bizad said:


> Only for the fuel rail, so, that is after the hardlines enter the engine bay. By pics I've seen of the MK4 Golf, they have these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said the fuel system didn't change that much on the B5. They don't use those fittings. My 98' B5 1.8TQ doesn't use those fittings.

I don't want to reign in too much on your vision. But I would get some barb to -6AN unions, cut the OEM line at a desireable point, and run the hardline from there.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

woodywoods86 said:


> Like I said the fuel system didn't change that much on the B5. They don't use those fittings. My 98' B5 1.8TQ doesn't use those fittings.
> 
> I don't want to reign in too much on your vision. But I would get some barb to -6AN unions, cut the OEM line at a desireable point, and run the hardline from there.


Most barb to -6 unions are actually, 3/8" barb -> -6AN unions, that I know of at least. The stock rubber fuel lines are 5/16". I do not suggest you cram a 5/16" line onto a 3/8" barb due to compromising the integrity of the hose.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

groggory said:


> Most barb to -6 unions are actually, 3/8" barb -> -6AN unions, that I know of at least. The stock rubber fuel lines are 5/16". I do not suggest you cram a 5/16" line onto a 3/8" barb due to compromising the integrity of the hose.



Wouldn't the barb be larger than the 5/16 line you are talking about? Or is there ID/OD issues I am missing here?


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

18T_BT said:


> Wouldn't the barb be larger than the 5/16 line you are talking about? Or is there ID/OD issues I am missing here?


Yeah that is pretty much what he is saying. It won't work.

But OP here are some pics of what you have under the hood.

Entrance in to the bay









Connection to Rubber lines









Fuel Rail Connections. Your Feed is -6AN and Return is a barb

















So forget the whole barb thing. Take your lines to someone that can Braze or have them come to you (so you don't have to removed them). The OEM lines are metal (which metal, I don't know). Have fittings brazed on the OEM lines and the fuel rail and Viola!

And I can only assume you will take the proper precautions "hot working" with Gasoline!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I didn't know the feed on a stock B5 was -6AN. Is this true? Is it actually a 37 degree flare? I haven't personally worked on a B5 fuel system, so I would love some confirmation of this fact.

Also, I have some little adapters I can mail to you if you want to convert 5/16" hose to 3/8" hose.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

I am going to have to check on that! I am having conflicting "IIRC" in my head right now . I know it is a straight thread (and -6AN dia) but I can't remember if the seal is an inverted flare or 37 deg. I should be able to check some B5s at the yard this week. Hopefully, I can check today or tomorrow.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

The nylon line of the a4 b5/b6 is 5/16 od or 3/8 od?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

audis3gr said:


> The nylon line of the a4 b5/b6 is 5/16 od or 3/8 od?


5/16 od


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

audis3gr said:


> The nylon line of the a4 b5/b6 is 5/16 od or 3/8 od?


It is not nylon.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

woodywoods86 said:


> It is not nylon.



The part from the fuel basket till the inlet of the fuel filter is nylon
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B6_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Engine/Fuel/ES436437/

Is anyone know if there is a 3/8" nylon line(fuel feed line)from an audi a4?dont know exactly the model


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## bizad (Mar 22, 2009)

Just going to use the I.E unions: http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-8-an-o-ring-boss-to-5-16-hose-barb-fitting
No one else makes them, only -4an & -6an equivalents. -5an is equivalent to 5/16.

Thanks for the help guys


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

audis3gr said:


> The part from the fuel basket till the inlet of the fuel filter is nylon
> http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B6_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Engine/Fuel/ES436437/
> 
> Is anyone know if there is a 3/8" nylon line(fuel feed line)from an audi a4?dont know exactly the model


I thought you had a B5?
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Engine/Fuel/Lines/ES429499/

Like I said before the B5 didn't come with quick connect fittings.


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

I have an audi s3 8l and make custom fuel lines from nylon and need the oem quick fitting nylon supply line from the fuel basket to fuel filter which is bigger than the usual 5/16 nylon,but didnt find the model,i only know its from
A4,for that reason i ask


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Trying to decipher your english is a nightmare. I but I think I get the gist.

You need 3/8" (-6an) ID hose, Right?


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

I cant see where my english is sooo bad you describe!

I m looking for an oem supply line which is 3/8 od and not 5/16 od like the most 1.8t fuel lines,i find the part i need and it is frOm b6(supply line only)


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

The hard lines(like nylon)like i said at my other posts mesures od!so a 3/8(10mm) od nylon hose is 5/16id(8mm)
So i m not looking for an-6,an-6 is 3/8 ID


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