# 8 valve timing problems please help



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

i have a 1982 vw rabbit with a 1.8l and i recently replace the stock cam with a techtonics cam, its the g-grind and the duration is 220/228.

the problem is 2 of the timing marks dont match up, which are the bottom pully and the flywheel.
if i line the bottom pully on the mark on the plastic case the flywheel mark dosnt line up, and if i line the flywheel up the pully is set to far forward. ii got it to run with the flywheel not lined up and when i went to mess with it and set it back to the same spot the car would run then backfire and die. ever since then the car has not been able to move, i have messed with the distributor to and i still cant get it to run right, i have honestly tried everything to the best of my knowledge and done research i cant figure it out any help would be appreciated, this car is my daily and id like to have it back please help thanks


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Which mark has the #1 piston at TDC? That is the mark to use when setting the timing marks for the cam and IM sprocket(dizzy).


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

i couldnt find any mark when i tried finding that, i tried putting a screwdriver in the whole where the first spark plug goes and rotated it by hand to try and find the mark but i couldnt seem to figure it out


----------



## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Would it be fair to say you are not using a repair manual here? From the sound of things you are/were trying to use the groove/notch on the crankshaft v-belt pulley to determine TDC. That is going to make you some where between 10° and 30° off (never really tried to determine the exact difference). The pulley mark is there to align with the intermediate shaft for positioning the ignition distributor rotor. The mark you need to use for setting the engine (# 1 piston) to TDC is on the flywheel, not like a V8 Ford or Chevy where you use the front vibration dampener.


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*water wheels*

just the person i was waitin to respond haha 

so what your sayin is that the v belt pully dosnt matter? i have put the flywheel at TDC and moved the cam to the line mark on the inside of the cam, i got the car to run but it stilll ran rough i would have to drive around in second at 2500rpms just cruzing at 25 if i shift into 3 it would lug and start to shake kind of is that just a normal thing for having a camed car or is something els wrong?


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

MkBean said:


> just the person i was waitin to respond haha
> 
> so what your sayin is that the v belt pully dosnt matter? i have put the flywheel at TDC and moved the cam to the line mark on the inside of the cam, i got the car to run but it stilll ran rough i would have to drive around in second at 2500rpms just cruzing at 25 if i shift into 3 it would lug and start to shake kind of is that just a normal thing for having a camed car or is something els wrong?


sounds like you have the im shaft timing off still. (distributor timing) sounds like its way retarded.. thats not from a cam, no matter how large it is.


----------



## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

MkBean said:


> so what your sayin is that the v belt pully dosnt matter? . . . i got the car to run but it stilll ran rough i would have to drive around in second at 2500rpms just cruzing at 25 if i shift into 3 it would lug and start to shake kind of . . .


The mark on the V-belt pulley matters and it does not. It's purpose, on this motor anyway, is to line the ignition distributor back up in the correct position when doing a timing belt change (or any work that requires the timing belt be removed). The only way the mark works is if the ignition distributor is not removed from the block. If you know and understand how things work you can doo all this type of work without ever looking at the pulley and intermediate shaft marks.

What is wrong with your car could be a few things, but to find out which it is will be something you need to check. It could be a tooth off as far as the timing belt goes. One tooth is about 8 degrees of valve timing and will cause problems like you have. You can not set ignition timing correctly if the timing belt is off, it might look OK with a timing light but it is really incorrect due to the engine timing not being right. I believe I asked before but if not I'll ask again, what if any manual are you using? procedures for checking this stuff can be written but it would take a toll on my fingers. It would be best if you have a manual to refer to with drawings or pictures to look at as well.


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*update*

ok so i started to use the flywheel instead of the v belt pully to line everything up, i turned the cam forward a tooth and got it to run, however it would only run for the day i would go back out to try and start it and it wouldnt start. i messed with the distributor the next day and it did the same thing [ran all day then wouldnt at night] also the mark on the v belt pully moved from being ahead of the factor mark to bein just alittle behind, and to answer your question water wheels iam using a chiltons manual


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*still*

still having problems i have got it to drive fine for a couple days, when i was heading home from work the rpms dropped and it back fired, i was lucky enough to get it home and parked in the garage. it seems to be the distributor thats the problem [so i think] i can get it to the right spot to make it run just fine, but then after i try to start it after it sitting for a few hours it starts up but it idles at about 5000rpms and seems to not want to move unless i mess with the distributor what could it be iam spent on this whole timing thing, any advice


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

MkBean said:


> still having problems i have got it to drive fine for a couple days, when i was heading home from work the rpms dropped and it back fired, i was lucky enough to get it home and parked in the garage. it seems to be the distributor thats the problem [so i think] i can get it to the right spot to make it run just fine, but then after i try to start it after it sitting for a few hours it starts up but it idles at about 5000rpms and seems to not want to move unless i mess with the distributor what could it be iam spent on this whole timing thing, any advice


do you have any idea where your cam and ignition timing are? besides just "close enough"?

these vars need the timing to be correct, otherwise they wont start, or they will be low on power, or a number of things..

i still think you have the cam AND ignition timing too far off..


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*glegor*

the cam is set to the top of the belt cover, the tranny is at what it hink is TDC which is a rectangular block but water wheels has pointed out in another thread that it is wrong but i cant seem to find any other kind of marking, the intermediate shaft (v belt pully) is a half inch behind the mark and as far as the distributor goes i have moved it to the middle and to the two edges of the rotor i have got the car to run but like you said it is lacking power and it will cut out sometimes and die then not start


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

MkBean said:


> the cam is set to the top of the belt cover, the tranny is at what it hink is TDC which is a rectangular block but water wheels has pointed out in another thread that it is wrong but i cant seem to find any other kind of marking, the intermediate shaft (v belt pully) is a half inch behind the mark and as far as the distributor goes i have moved it to the middle and to the two edges of the rotor i have got the car to run but like you said it is lacking power and it will cut out sometimes and die then not start


i still think your timing is off.. the mark on the crank pulley os for lining up the intermediate shaft..


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*..*

i know my timing is off the question is where?


----------



## Rideforlife_33 (Oct 18, 2008)

Get a honda :laugh:


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

MkBean said:


> i know my timing is off the question is where?


you need to pull your timing belt and start from scratch on cam/crank/im shaft timing..

unless someone else has a easier way to check that everything is timed right..


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

I'd be willing to put money on the engine timing being wrong:


MkBean said:


> the cam is set to the top of the belt cover, *the tranny is at what it hink is TDC which is a rectangular block but water wheels has pointed out in another thread that it is wrong but i cant seem to find any other kind of marking*, the intermediate shaft (v belt pully) is a half inch behind the mark and as far as the distributor goes i have moved it to the middle and to the two edges of the rotor i have got the car to run but like you said it is lacking power and it will cut out sometimes and die then not start


 Depending on which of the two blocks on the flywheel you set the cam against, the cam timing is either rather advanced, or really retarded.
Here's a picture of all of the flywheel marks (thanks to brokevw.com):









Admittedly, the TDC pip isn't always the easiest thing to find. But, the lugs, as well as the 6*BTDC slash, are.
The TDC pip is easier to see with a very bright (and, very finely focused) flashlight, such as a small LED flashlight, or an LED penlight. Wider lights will tend to blind you with the reflection from the trans case.
IIRC, each tooth on the timing belt corresponds to ~8* crankshaft rotation (when viewed at the cam gear.) So, rotate the motor until the 6* mark is lined up with the trans pointer (at this point, the cam mark (remember - it's the mark on the _back_ of the cam gear!) should be somewhere on the front of the head), and then continue to turn the engine almost-but-not-quite one more belt tooth (viewed at the head) - engine will be at TDC now.
Pull the timing belt. Re-time the engine, as per others' directions here.

A couple of tips:
- pull the spark plugs. This will keep engine compression from kicking the engine on you, and makes the checkspin easier to feel (and do.)
- get a helper. It's really, really easy to inadvertantly move the crank when you're pulling the belt tight onto the cam gear. So, have a helper hold the crank bolt with a well-fitting wrench.


----------



## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

The above stated method for finding TDC, or at least close to it, is interesting to say the least. If you think a little deeper into what was stated you will see a bit of a flaw in the thinking which could cause mental or mechanical confussion for some. This is one case where the possibility of being 180° off does come into play. If as stated you line the 6° notch up with the pointer and do not see the TDC mark on the inside of the camshaft gear at the cylinder head edge, you might have to rotate the engine another 360°. Do not just start removing belts and such until you are sure about the positions. Another little bit is the degrees of the teeth and how far to rotate to get things lined up. Yes, each tooth is 8.18°, but it is camshaft degrees and not crankshaft. The number of teeth are divided into 360 degrees, 360/44 (16v is 52 if anyone cares) which equals the 8.18° per tooth. That brings in the 2:1 rotation factor of the crankshaft to camshaft. If you rotate the engine so that the camshaft gear moves one (1) tooth, you have not rotated the crankshaft, or flywheel, about 8 degrees but about 16 degrees as the camshaft rotates once per every two (2) crankshaft rotations. So this method might get you close and work to find the dot on the flywheel, but you have to think a little about just how the engine parts move. Just as a sort of side note, I have seen one flywheel that the cast in dot just could not be seen (guess it was really not cast in). This was with the flywheel off the engine and on a work bench so it is possible there is none. Also, some replacement flywheels come with no 6° notch in them too if anyone ever comes upon that problem.


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

> If you think a little deeper into what was stated you will see a bit of a flaw in the thinking which could cause mental or mechanical confussion for some. *This is one case where the possibility of being 180° off does come into play. If as stated you line the 6° notch up with the pointer and do not see the TDC mark on the inside of the camshaft gear at the cylinder head edge, you might have to rotate the engine another 360°*.


Actually, I did point out that possibility:


> So, rotate the motor until the 6* mark is lined up with the trans pointer* (at this point, the cam mark (remember - it's the mark on the back of the cam gear!) should be somewhere on the front of the head)*, and then continue to turn the engine almost-but-not-quite one more belt tooth (viewed at the head) - engine will be at TDC now.


 If the engine were 180* off, the cam timing mark would be on the back of the head, and pretty much not visible.

Another tip to the OP (forgot to post this yesterday):
when you find the timing marks on the flywheel, paint them something bright. Do the same with the arrow on the trans case. White, yellow, orange - something easliy seen. It'll help in the future with belt replacements, and it'll help a lot come ignition-timing time.


----------



## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*thanks*

i have fixed it a while ago just havent been on in awhile haha that picture has helped alot i got it all figured out thank you to all of you who took the time to help me, i really appreciate it


----------



## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

cuppie said:


> Actually, I did point out that possibility:


If it makes you feel better, OK, sorry, didn't really see it that way. But I think what really bothers you is my choice of wording, " . . . a bit of a flaw in the thinking . . .". It really was not intended to state your method was flawed, but rather could use some fine tuning, that's all. The important part ofthe same sentense for me was, ". . . could cause mental or mechanical confussion for some." The ratio between the crankshaft and camshaft was really more important as was the tooth value, the 180 degrees and timing mark on the cam gear was just foreplay of sorts just to be sure nobody would start pulling out hairs if the mark was not where you stated. So sorry if I offended you, it was not indended to have this kind of response.


----------

