# Yet another cis question...



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

OK a little back ground on my car 85 cabby, 1.8 jh, bought it with a missing fuel dizzy... 
with that said I bought a used dizzy and thought I was good to go, not so much after a month or two it just poured gas out the bottom and in to the air box and I was never able to get the car to run before it started to leak fuel...
Oh but I was able to get the car to run with a air box full of gas, not to sure how it ran but it did and it ran good for a short time like that...








OK so now I have yet another dizzy and still nothing, no leaks this time but here's what I have tried now, I pulled one fuel injector out and cranked it over no fuel came out of the injector... I hear the fuel pump prime and if I crack a fuel line off the dizzy it sprays fuel out...








We have spark and it will fire and run on starting fluid but its like there is no fuel getting to the injectors even if the air plate is pulled up...








So were do I go from here????
any help would be great


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (need_4spd)*

anyone have any ideas???


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (need_4spd)*

back up anyone?


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (need_4spd)*

bump


----------



## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

Each of the injectors has a little tiny filter screen in it, as I understand it. It's _possible_, though not probable, that you could have clogged all four of them.
Is the fuel line you cracked one that's leading to an injector, or one of the other fuel lines on the distributor?


----------



## spencer2829 (Aug 23, 2009)

ok so the little push rod at the bottom of a fuel dizzy is SPECIFIC TO ITS ORIGINAL. you cannot swap them. they are lazer cut to fit only one dizzy. im guessing the first dizzy you used has a rod too small so it leaked, and the new one has a rod too big so its too much friction. go find a new dizzy and keep the rod it comes with.


----------



## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (spencer2829)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spencer2829* »_ok so the little push rod at the bottom of a fuel dizzy is SPECIFIC TO ITS ORIGINAL. you cannot swap them. they are lazer cut to fit only one dizzy. im guessing the first dizzy you used has a rod too small so it leaked, and the new one has a rod too big so its too much friction. go find a new dizzy and keep the rod it comes with.

Given how old these units are, I very, very sincerely doubt they were "laser cut."
Very precisely cut, ground and polished, perhaps. But lasers are not the only way to make precision fits.
Most people don't cavalierly swap fuel plungers; if he has movement on the plate with the new distributor, the fuel plunger is of least concern and a clog, blockage or disconnect somewhere is a far more likely cause.


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

OK after a lot of reading I think I have a bad pump... the dizzy is fine I took the fuel line off that you would connect a fuel pressure gauge to and it just had a slow stream of fuel, at the most it should have sprayed out with at least some pressure...
I'm going to try a filter then if nothing changes its pump time...


----------



## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_4spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_4spd* »_OK after a lot of reading I think I have a bad pump... the dizzy is fine I took the fuel line off that you would connect a fuel pressure gauge to and it just had a slow stream of fuel, at the most it should have sprayed out with at least some pressure...
I'm going to try a filter then if nothing changes its pump time... 

Can you hear the pump(s) running when you have the key on? Not turning it over, but the first time you turn the key to RUN you should hear the pumps (and '85 CIS should have two of them, one in-tank one high pressure) run for a double handful of seconds, then click off if you don't start the car.
If you're only getting a little trickle of fuel out of the distributor supply pipe, you might have a toasted high-pressure pump. It takes a fair amount of pressure to open up the springs in the injectors, and the in-tank transfer pump just isn't going to cut it.


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

I hear a pump not sure what one, I don't hear a pump on when I'm trying to start it... just when I turn the key on, before I turn it over.
If I had to guess its the main high pressure pump and not the in tank pump do to how loud it is, I will have to check again to be sure...
Now does the one relay control both pumps???
I'm having a hard time figuring out what fuse's and what relay's are what... my fuse box was hanging down when I got the car...








can I put 12v to pump in the tank to test it??


----------



## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

Yes, the one relay controls both pumps (wonderful design, eh?). I don't know which one it would be on your relay board, as I don't have a manual for your car (or any other Jetta or Golf. All B-platform cars here), but I'm sure someone with the manual can chime in with which relay it is. Buying your own Bentley would probably help in a serious way; the ones from the 80s are still very informative, and it shouldn't be too expensive.
To test for which pump, you can unplug one, then pull the relay out and jumper the terminals. That will make the pumps run whenever the key is ON. If you still hear sound, that pump at least functions. No sound, dead pump.
Very noisy lift pumps are usually on their last legs, too. You might need to look at replacing both...


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

OK thanks for the help... I will be testing them hopefully this weekend, at least to get closer to a running car by the new year...


----------



## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

I also have an 85 Cabby. The fuel pump relay is, middle row, far left. There is a link on cabbyinfo.com that will give you all the relay positions and what they are for.


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (khartman2394)*

Yep cabbyinfo was a big help to find the relay and a lot of other info I needed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

It would be best to have access to a fuel pressure gauge. If there is fuel pressure problems either of the two pumps can cause this. Also, the sender in the tank can have a bad fuel coupler and be dumping fuel back into the tank instead of filling the external reservoir for the fuel pressure amplifier pump.


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (ultravw)*

OK its going to be warmer then 32 degrees this weekend







and I hope to find out what pump maybe bad and get some parts on there way...


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

*OK update........*
I will be replacing both fuel pumps and filter... after testing the in tank pump will not come on at all.
I was able to get the car to run but I involved using 2 other cars, my friends 82 caddy's fuel pump and filter and my 03 Lexus for the battery... oh yes this was a pieced together test just to see if the car would even run...


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

OK tested the in tank pump, in the tank and it worked for about 3 test runs and when I pulled the fuel line it stopped and would never start back up... so the pump is out and it wont even work when jumper-ed out of the tank now...








time to get a new pump and battery and fingers crossed it will start up








I want to give a big thanks to *dasdachshund* for his wright up on pulling the in tank pump... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

OK another nice day out, so I took another stab at this fuel problem...
I now have the in tank pump working and its working good, I have the external pump working too... so I pulled the injectors out and put them in a clear tub, nothing at all... I jumper-ed the pumps on and pulled the air plate up and still nothing...








I also pulled the line off the dizzy from the filter and put it in to the tub and it sprayed fuel really good...








So is it possible that the pumps are on but just not pumping enough to spray the injectors??? 
Any help would be great....


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

Anyone have any ideas???


----------



## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: (need_4spd)*

Your system fuel pressure must have over 40 psi for the injectors to spray with the plate raised. Ideally, there should be around 75-80 psi. in total system pressure. It is difficult to determin if the pressure is adaquate by visually watching fuel spray from the input. System pressure can be low also by a damaged o ring in the fuel distributor's pressure regulator valve. You can check for fuel delivery on the return line coming from the fuel dist. No fuel means the pumps are strong enough or there is a clog in the input connection at the fuel distributor.


----------



## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (need_4spd)*

If your not getting enough pressure you can try removing the check valve ball and spring on the external pump reservoir, located inside the fuel hose fitting from the transfer pump. This will make it easier on the transfer pump to fill the housing so the pressure amplifier pump can do its job.


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (ultravw)*

Ok so if there is no fuel coming from were the return line goes then there may be a block somewere like you said or the pumps may not have enough pressure?? This will be my next test...
I know the dizzy is good for when we did the test with the picture I posted I ended up with all the gas out of my buddys truck as it was getting returned to my tank... 
That's why I'm thinking it has to be the pump under the car that's not pushing like it should...


----------



## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (need_4spd)*

Most likely the pumps are not functioning properly. Also, check pump voltage. With the engine not running, there should be at least 11.0 Volts across each pump's terminals.


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (ultravw)*

OK I will check the voltage on the pump... about how much pressure should the in tank pump have? just enough to get fuel to the high pressure pump right?


----------



## sharons03jetta (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (ultravw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ultravw* »_Most likely the pumps are not functioning properly. Also, check pump voltage. With the engine not running, there should be at least 11.0 Volts across each pump's terminals.

for that test you would need a good battery










































hint hint...


----------



## need_4spd (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (sharons03jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sharons03jetta* »_
for that test you would need a good battery










































hint hint...
























True True


----------



## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: Yet another cis question... (need_4spd)*

Not much, just enough to overcome the spring loaded check valve in the external housing. My 1986 Golf's in tank pump could not do this so I got by at the time by removing this ball and spring.


----------

