# Dead TTRS Engine - Zero Audi Loyalty - My Situation



## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

So about 3 weeks ago the engine in my TTRS died and I just got the car back today. Here is my experience... 


_*Beginning: *_ 
3 weeks ago (exactly 2 years after I bought the car) I was driving my TTRS around for some errands. I had just filled up the tank with 93 BP (my fuel of choice) and was sitting in line to go through a car wash. All of a sudden the car sputtered and died. I started it back up and it started with zero hesitation and continued to idle fine after the restart. I continued on with errands and the car was running with no issues and I did not notice anything out of the ordinary even with spirited driving. As I pulled into the Post Office to complete my last errand, the car again sputtered a bit but continued to run. I pulled in and parked and at this point I am just thinking that maybe I got some bad fuel. When I came out of the Post Office and attempted to leave, the car would not start. If I continued to try, it would begin to start but it sounded HORRIBLE. It sounded like something was banging in the engine, so I immediately turned it off and called the dealership and roadside assistance. About an hour later the tow company pulled up and hauled my car to the dealership.


_*Honesty and Loyalty:*_
I would like to state that I have always been 100% honest with the dealership about anything I do to my car. I do not hide the fact that it is tuned or the mods that I put on it. I have always thought that being honest with them is the best thing and how could I expect them to help me in an issue if I was not honest with them.

So about 6 months or so ago, there was another TTRS in town that was a tuned TTRS and he did the classic mis-shift and blew up his motor. When Audi approached him and asked him if he tuned his car, he lied to them and said he had not. So they went and sent the ECU into Audi and of course they were able to determine that it was tuned. When they approached him again, he got nasty and threatened them to bring in lawyers, etc.. Needless to say, this did not go well for him and he ended up having to pay for the entire engine/labor out of his pocket. 

From what I have been told, the local warranty rep even told the dealership that at the time if he would have just been honest, they would have worked with him. So now I am thinking that my honesty is going to work out for me no matter what the cause turns out to be, right?

I would also like to say that my last 5 cars have been Audis that I have bought from the two local dealerships, including the last 3 from this dealership. I have also been directly responsible for my ex-girlfriend buying an A4 and an RS5 from this dealership. Not to mention that I am already on the "list" for the MK3 TTRS if it comes to the states. I am a member of the Glacier Lakes Audi Club (North America Audi Club), a member of our local MN Audi club and overall I believe that I am/was a very VERY loyal Audi customer. That has to mean something right? 



_*Inspection and Suspected causes:*_
Once the car was at the dealership, they took a borescope to the car and upon looking in as best they could, they found what appeared to be a small torx screw inside cylinder 5. It appeared that it had damaged the head and possibly the engine wall. So the first question is obviously, how in the world did a torx screw get inside the engine? The two primary thoughts at the time was that it somehow came from the APR intercooler that was installed at my local shop (either from the IC itself or from the install) or that it was from the engine itself. The other thought was that it came from the internals of the engine itself. At this point we need to wait for permission from Audi to start tearing the engine apart to find the cause and that would be a few days.


_*Preparation:*_
Since it was a Friday afternoon and we would not get permission from Audi until the following week, I went ahead and made some calls myself so that I could at least be prepared. First call was to the shop that performed the install of the APR Intercooler on my car (and my APR tune). The shop is Nur Technik here in Burnsville, MN. I talked to David (the owner) and he was first and foremost concerned about my car. It really bothered him that something had happened to it and I appreciated that. He then went on to tell me that while he did not think it could have been from the IC install, but that if Audi came back and said that it was, that he would do everything in his power to take care of it as fast as possible. There was zero hesitation on his part and it just shows what a stand up guy he is. I then called APR and over the next 2 weeks I left them about 3 Voicemails (never was able to get ahold of them) and never did hear any response back from them.


_*The cause is determined:*_
Monday arrives and the dealership is given permission to dive into the car to determine the issue. It did not take long as upon looking at the intake they found that one of the screws had backed out and that is what caused the damage to the engine. Inside the intake is a flap that is supposed to rise up at about 3k RPM and it does something with the air. Each flap is held down by 2 screws and apparently one of mine decided it wanted to quit its job and go home.

You would like to think that this diagnosis would be a good thing right? It is a mechanical/assembly issue that you would believe has nothing to do with the tune. Unfortunately, it did not work out that way.


_*Audi's Reaction:*_
My dealership then contacted Audi and when asked if my car was tuned, they immediately declined any warranty claim with a big "No". My dealership then tried to explain to them that they believed this had nothing to do with the tune, however the answer was still a big No.

At this point my salesguy and the service rep tell me that they will talk to the local warranty rep and see what they can do with him. Unfortunately, that answer comes back the exact same way. They are also told that due to all of the TTRS engines that have been getting blown up, that Audi has taken a firm, no exceptions stance with TTRS engines and tuning. If it is tuned, you will not get any warranty regardless of the issue. While I can certainly understand that position, I do believe that my circumstance is quite different and at least deserves come consideration as a separate case.

The dealership tells me that they will continue to work at this and will not give up. In the meantime, I have a buddy that works at AoA and I contact him to let him know what is going on and he decides that he will do what he can to help. Now I have my salesguy, my service rep and a buddy at AoA who are working hard for me and you cannot imagine how much I appreciated that. My stress level through all of this is off the chart and I think I literally lost about 8 pounds in that first week.


_*The Solution:*_
As "my team" continues to try and get things taken care of, Audi is pretty much not budging at all. Eventually however, I receive word that a solution has been offered as the following deal. Audi would cover 1/3, the dealership would cover 1/3 and that I would cover 1/3 of the cost of the engine and misc parts and the dealership would pretty much cover the labor for me.

So while this is obviously a better offer than I had initially, I was still not entirely happy as $8500 is a lot of money. My team continues to work but unfortunately that was the best offer that we ever received from Audi and I was forced to move forward with it. I truly believe that my buddy at AoA is responsible for the deal that was offered and I cannot thank him enough. I have no doubt that if it was not for my team pushing as hard as they could, I would have been stuck with the full cost.

Since they were already having to tear the engine out, I decided to have them look at the clutch for me in case it was getting close to replacement as I have about 45,000 miles on the car. They did and even though it looked like it had another year or so left in it, I decided to take advantage of it and pay the $800 for clutch parts instead of worrying about it and labor later. Since I do not have any plans to take my car to Stage 3, I was fine with the OEM clutch.


_*Silver Lining:*_
So I picked up my car today, handed over $9300 ($8500 + $800 for the clutch parts) and now I have my car back with a brand new Engine, Turbo and Clutch. Partial good news is that I now have a 45,000 mile car but the entire power train is brand new.

The real silver lining is that I was able to take the old engine and turbo home with me. So far it is believed that I should be able to rebuild this engine with about $3000-$4000 in parts and then I will have a full spare TTRS engine and spare turbo. Which will be nice since I do not have any plans to stop tracking my car and having a spare takes a lot of worry out of that. Also, if I do not need to use this engine/turbo in the next few years before my next car, I should be able to sell it at that time and recoup most of my costs from this whole incident. 
I will be having a friend of mine do the rebuild (he is doing it for free) and I should know in a month or so exactly how much damage there is and the cost to rebuild it.


_*Side Effects:*_
I will be honest, I am not sure how I feel about Audi as a whole at this point. I love the dealership I go through and they really did try their best to help me, but Audi in general pretty much **** on a loyal customer and used the tune as an escape even though it is known that it did not have anything (or at least, very little) with the issue that caused the engine to die.

I can honestly say that I know of at least 3 people that have backed out of active sales with Audi and decided to go another route due to this issue. All 3 of them would have been first time Audi customers and I am sad about this because I was the one who was the Audi cheerleader and getting them to look at the vehicles in the first place.

Through all of this, I really really thought (maybe I was just naive) that Audi would step up and take care of a loyal customer and in the end it would be taken care of. It makes me said (in more just the money sense) that it did not happen as I sort of feel like a good friend has betrayed me. May sound stupid, but when you have faith in something like this and it turns out to be wrong.. it bothers you.


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## Fined (Sep 3, 2013)

Sorry to hear about that happening. Geez, what an ordeal. I guess.. having paid 9k for a new engine, clutch, and turbo... to replace a set of those same parts with 45k on them.. is not the worst deal in the world. Although having to pay at all really sucks. And it clearly was indeed not related to the tune.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am one of the people that unfortunately blew their TTRS engine... Put a rod right through the block ... I am also fortunate enough to have had my car covered 100% under warranty even though it was my fault... I now know of 13 of these cars with blown engines... I'm sure there's more but that's what I am aware of... I'm sorry to hear of your trouble with Audi but I'm sure at this point they are tired of hearing of blown engines with tunes... However, I think if they dig into this a little further rather than giving a quick answer they will find that NONE failed due to the tune but rather a miss-shift from 3rd - 2nd... There is definitely an issue with these cars slipping easily into 2nd gear from 3rd under hard acceleration... I fixed mine with dogbone and shifter bushing upgrades... I'm 100% convinced that the torque-flex under full load lines 2nd gear up perfectly for a miss-shift... Before I did it at FULL THROTTLE it had happened to me several other times... I just wasn't at or near redline in 3rd in those instances... 




croman44 said:


> So about 3 weeks ago the engine in my TTRS died and I just got the car back today. Here is my experience...
> 
> 
> _*Beginning: *_
> ...


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

bull30 said:


> I am one of the people that unfortunately blew their TTRS engine... Put a rod right through the block ... I am also fortunate enough to have had my car covered 100% under warranty even though it was my fault... I now know of 13 of these cars with blown engines... I'm sure there's more but that's what I am aware of... I'm sorry to hear of your trouble with Audi but I'm sure at this point they are tired of hearing of blown engines with tunes... However, I think if they dig into this a little further rather than giving a quick answer they will find that NONE failed due to the tune but rather a miss-shift from 3rd - 2nd... There is definitely an issue with these cars slipping easily into 2nd gear from 3rd under hard acceleration... I fixed mine with dogbone and shifter bushing upgrades... I'm 100% convinced that the torque-flex under full load lines 2nd gear up perfectly for a miss-shift... Before I did it at FULL THROTTLE it had happened to me several other times... I just wasn't at or near redline in 3rd in those instances...


The thing that bugs me the most is that this is something that was not caused by anything that I did. I would understand if the tune caused it, or if it was because I misshifted, but in this case I did absolutely nothing wrong.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

sorry to hear about your troubles man. I am in a similar situation with my clutch failing at 33k miles. I am a first time Audi buyer and I know how I have treated the clutch up to this point but it is a "wear and tear" item. AoA and my dealership came up with a similar compromise....and I feel the exact same way you do! Totally appreciate the effort of everyone involved but I feel like I shouldn't have been out anything as I don't believe it was my fault. 

Sorry to hear about the car. Glad it is back up and running. 

This is the exact reason I have not tuned my ECU yet!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

croman, I'm really sorry to hear that. Thanks so much for sharing your story with everyone so they can be educated about Audi's stance and support in situations like this.

Personally, if this had happened to me and there was clear evidence of an Audi mechanical fault causing the issue, I would have happily burned the $9k in legal fees for taking Audi to court long before agreeing to pay a cent out of pocket. And then I would have fought to get my legal expenses paid for by Audi, along with loss of use of the car over that time period. 

This sort of blanket warranty denial by Audi is simply not legal, and more precedents need to be set to protect consumers. 

It would be a different story if the root cause of the failure was more ambiguous (such as throwing rod at high RPM under out-of-Audi-spec boost due to the aftermarket tune). 

As much as I've enjoyed my TT RS (minus the time that's been ruined by the APR Stage 3 kit), I will steer clear of owning another Audi if this is how they treat their warranties with loyal customers.


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

So sorry about your car and more so how Audi treated you. 



> They are also told that due to all of the TTRS engines that have been getting blown up, that Audi has taken a firm, no exceptions stance with TTRS engines and tuning. If it is tuned, you will not get any warranty regardless of the issue.


As Marty pointed out, that is flat out illegal for them to do. Consumers are protected by the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. It is put upon Audi to prove that the malfunction was caused by the tune before they can deny warranty. From your description, it was proved that it wasn't caused by it.

At least you got your car back and have a spare engine.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear about what happened to you. At the end of the day, it does sound like they came up with a livable resolution. I would be tempted to fight it via legal means, but Audi could always argue that the tune might have exposed the intake manifold to more boost pressure than it was designed to hold, thereby causing the screw to come loose from heat and pressure. 

I'm also a bit surprised by this: 


croman44 said:


> I then called APR and over the next 2 weeks I left them about 3 Voicemails (never was able to get ahold of them) and never did hear any response back from them.


It seems as if APR is having tons of issues nowadays ranging from customer cars, Stage 3 kits, distributors as well as customer support. What a shame. 

Glad it all worked out in the end. You may possibly be able to sell that engine to someone else looking to build one up. 

Dave


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

crew219 said:


> I would be tempted to fight it via legal means, but Audi could always argue that the tune might have exposed the intake manifold to more boost pressure than it was designed to hold, thereby causing the screw to come loose from heat and pressure.


They could argue that, but I would have derived much enjoyment out of carefully measuring intake pressure (and more importantly temperature) on the APR-tuned car in my local conditions vs. a stock car in "approved" ambient conditions (such as a summer day in Arizona), modeled the cyclic stress on that bolted joint due to the pressure and temperature changes, and shown that the stress on my car was actually far less than typical in many areas of the country, and follow that with the fact that all of the above is far below the design spec of a properly attached and torqued joint. I'd let them bring in their panel of expensive experts to try and refute that to the point where a judge is convinced that they don't need to honor their warranty (good luck with that, Audi).


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

I feel like a friend let you down too. They should have stepped up, when they found out a screw they put in backed out. I'm sorry man.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Marty said:


> They could argue that, but I would have derived much enjoyment out of carefully measuring intake pressure (and more importantly temperature) on the APR-tuned car in my local conditions vs. a stock car in "approved" ambient conditions (such as a summer day in Arizona), modeled the cyclic stress on that bolted joint due to the pressure and temperature changes, and shown that the stress on my car was actually far less than typical in many areas of the country, and follow that with the fact that all of the above is far below the design spec of a properly attached and torqued joint. I'd let them bring in their panel of expensive experts to try and refute that to the point where a judge is convinced that they don't need to honor their warranty (good luck with that, Audi).


LOL, forget calling the lawyer, I'm calling you if this kind of crap hits me!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Brd.Prey said:


> I feel like a friend let you down too. They should have stepped up, when they found out a screw they put in backed out. I'm sorry man.


Wait, did someone do work on the intake flaps??


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

Stories like this is exactly why I haven't touched my engine tunes on my two TTS. Just not worth it to me. I do feel for you and sounds like 1/3 is much better than bearing the whole cost. I've always heard the "Audi must prove your mod caused the issue" but I think they have more and higher paid attorneys than 99% of their customers.....

All these "blown" engines, are they all tuned cars?


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

I heard about this engine from a friend of mine at IMOLA(well used to be at Imola). What a bum situation. 

From Audi's point of view, I get it. Audi has lost so much money in the past from covering warranty work on peoples modified cars. They lose so much that they invest millions of dollars into program, safe guards and detection techniques to be able to figure out who is modifying what. I manufacture upgraded billet turbos and I constantly get people that overspin them, run with boost leaks or run them without proper weight oil. It puts me in a tough situation to stay in business if I am covering warranty on products that are being run outside the intended spec. I have had customers buy rebuild kits and trying and rebuild the damaged parts and then expect me to warranty the thing. The real loser is the guys that do run them properly and have rare defects, though those are extremely rare. 

Not saying your case is the same, but I think car manufactures are past the point of using a judge and a jury to find out if something is warranty worthy. They have made a clear line in the mud that only thing that gets warranty work is 100% stock cars. It is a shame that the realm of what a software upgrade or intercooler would ever cause. I am disappointed but not surprised.

You should have called us up. I likely could have put a built motor into the car for less than you paid out of pocket including the labor! Well close atleast.

Hank


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## Nin Din Din (Dec 11, 2012)

Brd.Prey said:


> I feel like a friend let you down too. They should have stepped up, when they found out a screw they put in backed out. I'm sorry man.


B.P. - Exactly! Well said.

O.P. - Sorry for your trouble. Fortunately you have found "silver lining" as you say, and so in the long run it looks like you are ahead of the game. Let this be a lesson to all of us.

One wonders what a hungry, ankle biting lawyer could have done here.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

As much as I hate to say it, don't you think that if Audi could reliably get another 50-100 hp or so out of a motor, they would? They do extensive testing and know what is likely to fail an why. I just wish there was a tuner that was "approved" by Audi. Status was a joke.....too much money and not enough product.....


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

IMHO, you were lucky to get that deal considering that your engine was tuned for the following reasons:
1) you got a new engine
2) It is a clear statement from Audi that if you tune the engine you loose the warranty ... which makes sense.
3) A tuned engine generates more heat, vibrations, ... so it's very logical that any component can fail much sooner. Don't know if it's the case here but no one can actually tell. For example, on enduro / motocross motorcycles you have to inspect all the screws from time to time because they can fail from vibrations.
4) When we our engines we have to understand that bad things can happen. That's why we pay "less" for a more potent car and then we compare it with a Ferrari or other more expensive cars.

I'm sorry that it happened to your car and getting so much money out of your pocket is really unpleasant but I really can't fault Audi on this one because they don't know what happened with your engine and they have no guarantee if anyone ever touched that screw or what is the reason it failed.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

cipsony said:


> IMHO, you were lucky to get that deal considering that your engine was tuned for the following reasons:
> 1) you got a new engine
> 2) It is a clear statement from Audi that if you tune the engine you loose the warranty ... which makes sense.
> 3) A tuned engine generates more heat, vibrations, ... so it's very logical that any component can fail much sooner. Don't know if it's the case here but no one can actually tell. For example, on enduro / motocross motorcycles you have to inspect all the screws from time to time because they can fail from vibrations.
> ...


I have to agree with cipsony on this one. First of all, a $9k+ bill to replace something that you had a short time before (i.e. a running TT-RS engine) is not fun. As a fellow TT-RS owner, I do have sympathy for your situation. However, you are throwing Audi "under the bus", after they made a deal with you that reduced the cost of this engine failure by over 2/3rd's. All of the car manufacturers have zero tolerance policies in place for paying warranty claims on modified cars. Some, like Ford, have go to the length of using people's posts on forums like this one to "prove" that their car had been modified prior to the failure/warranty claim.

A lot of people, including many on this forum, would try to cover up their mod's by trying to reinstall the OEM parts or have their ECU flashed back to the OEM tune, then make go to the dealer with a straight face and attempt to lie their way into the manufacturer picking up the bill for all types of drivetrain failures. Vendors support these behaviors/attitudes as they make money when people by mods for their brand new, under warranty cars... read through APR's thread on their new OBDII port flashes in this very forum section. 

In the case of this screw, it isn't the first time that a screw in the intake tract of an engine worked loose and took out the engine. Miata 1.8L engines are very prone to this when the rpm limiter is raised and the engine is run above OEM speeds. A harmonic vibration sets up, working the screws loose and/or snapping the throttle blade shaft. Did you ever run your engine about the OEM redline? You may never had done so, but Audi doesn't know that. 

I do firmly believe that the manufacturers should work with people who modify their cars. If the modification didn't cause the failure, then they should pay the warranty claim. However, the world isn't always ideal... instead they have all instituted hard line policies to deny warranty claims for modified vehicles, normally by the down to the level of which part of the vehicle has been modified (ex: drivetrain, suspension, etc.). To hear that Audi and the dealership both stood up and offered to cover over 2/3rd's of the cost, without you having to involve lawyers and whatnot is a sign that they do look at the specifics of the situation. Many other manufactures will hold fast with the warranty claim denial.

Again, it does stink that you have a $9k bill. However, bad mouthing Audi isn't deserved, at least IMHO... The other side of the story is that Audi covered $18k+ in repair costs, even though your vehicle is modified and Audi has a clear policy against paying warranty claims once a vehicle is modified.

Looking on the positive side, you can have the old engine fully built with forged rods, better springs, etc. as long as the block and cylinder head aren't beyond repair.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Btw, I didn't see any badmouthing of Audi from the OP. His post is well balanced and it is natural for him to have some negative feelings at the very end. He did however thank and acknowledge the help his dealership provided. 

I am particularly grateful that he chose to share Audi's "Zero-tolerance policy" on chipped TT RS engines. It makes my decision a lot easier. 

Dave


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

People really need to stop with the "zero tolerance policy" on modded cars. Manufacturers can say it all they want, the fact is in the US, that is an illegal policy. Yes it will probably take a lawyer on your side to fight it and in the end that might not be worth your trouble, but just telling everyone to roll over will allow even more people to get screwed. 

This is in no way bad mouthing Audi as they have been quite good to me in replacing parts under warranty no questions asked. Even I was surprised by that.


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## sandjunkie (Sep 28, 2012)

crew219 said:


> Btw, I didn't see any badmouthing of Audi from the OP. His post is well balanced and it is natural for him to have some negative feelings at the very end. He did however thank and acknowledge the help his dealership provided.
> 
> I am particularly grateful that he chose to share Audi's "Zero-tolerance policy" on chipped TT RS engines. It makes my decision a lot easier.
> 
> Dave


I think it is the post title of "Zero Audi Loyalty" that seems to be badmouthing when it seems that there was some give and take. Zero Audi Loyalty would have been $30k for a new engine.

The post itself was pretty fair and balanced. I think the title is misleading. Sorry OP for your issue. $9K still does suck but we all know the risk of tuning a motor that may lead to wider warranty denial.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

The title of the thread is a bit over the top... If you look at the total Audi performance lineup and the sheer number of tuners modifying Audi, the number of warranty claims has to be staggering... We all knew the risk when we tuned our cars and that there would be the chance that a warranty claim, especially a catastrophic claim, would be denied by Audi... I also believe that brand loyalty is not having bought a couple of Audi in your life... In my case between my wife and myself along with our kids we have bought 23 Audi in 13 years... That's brand loyalty  So to bash Audi by saying "Zero Brand Loyalty", well let's just say I can't relate... We love Audi in my family and continue to show it everyday... Which is why Audi gave me a one time "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free" card... It was a $27,750.00 gift to my family from Audi for which we are truly grateful...


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

LynxFX said:


> People really need to stop with the "zero tolerance policy" on modded cars. Manufacturers can say it all they want, the fact is in the US, that is an illegal policy. Yes it will probably take a lawyer on your side to fight it and in the end that might not be worth your trouble, but just telling everyone to roll over will allow even more people to get screwed.
> 
> This is in no way bad mouthing Audi as they have been quite good to me in replacing parts under warranty no questions asked. Even I was surprised by that.


How exactly is that illegal?


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

Let's put this to rest... The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act was never intended to force an automobile manufacturer to cover warranty repairs on modded cars. In fact, it was designed to prevent a manufacturer from forcing you to purchase only their products to maintain your warranty... In fact you can even have work done by a mechanic outside the dealer... As long as their work did not cause the problem your car is still covered.

Below is an opinion that was rendered on this subject:

"If you choose to modify your car, and suddenly the fancy new electronic control boxes that you added to your car make it run rough, not start when cold, or buck like a bronco, the dealer can and will charge a diagnostic fee to find out what is wrong with your car. If it turns out that your modifications are the cause of the problem, the dealer has every right not only to charge you for the diagnosis and repair, but to also void the portion of the warranty that has been compromised by the use of those aftermarket parts. Likewise, a dealer may refuse to service your car if it is adorned with aftermarket parts to the extent that its technicians cannot reasonably be expected to diagnose what is wrong with your car. As an example, all cars manufactured after 1994 are equipped with OBDII (On Board Diagnostics II) ports that dealers use to read engine diagnostic codes for everything from an engine vacuum leak to a malfunctioning emissions system. If your chosen modification has compromised the dealer service center's ability to scan your car or requires the mechanic to remove or install aftermarket parts, then there is a strong probability that the dealer service center will:


Deny warranty coverage
Refuse to service the car
Note with your factory field representative for your region/district that your car has been "modified"
Your car's manufacturer notes are your car's "permanent record." 
Above all else, avoid compromising these notes.
This is nearly always connected with your vehicles' VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) and will
Ensure that your car will not have its warranty honored at any dealer service center in your area.
Dramatically reduce the resale and/or trade-in value of your car."


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

bull30 said:


> The title of the thread is a bit over the top... If you look at the total Audi performance lineup and the sheer number of tuners modifying Audi, the number of warranty claims has to be staggering... We all knew the risk when we tuned our cars and that there would be the chance that a warranty claim, especially a catastrophic claim, would be denied by Audi... I also believe that brand loyalty is not having bought a couple of Audi in your life... In my case between my wife and myself along with our kids we have bought 23 Audi in 13 years... That's brand loyalty  So to bash Audi by saying "Zero Brand Loyalty", well let's just say I can't relate... We love Audi in my family and continue to show it everyday... Which is why Audi gave me a one time "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free" card... It was a $27,750.00 gift to my family from Audi for which we are truly grateful...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

bull30 said:


> If you choose to modify your car, and suddenly the fancy new electronic control boxes that you added to your car make it run rough, not start when cold, or buck like a bronco, the dealer can and will charge a diagnostic fee to find out what is wrong with your car. *If it turns out that your modifications are the cause of the problem, the dealer has every right *not only to charge you for the diagnosis and repair, but to also void the portion of the warranty that has been compromised by the use of those aftermarket parts.


That is the important part of the act. Your modifications need to be the cause of the problem. No manufacturer can just give a blanket statement of "if you modded your car, your warranty is void" as some have said Audi or others are doing. Burden of proof is on them.


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## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

bull30 said:


> Let's put this to rest... The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act was never intended to force an automobile manufacturer to cover warranty repairs on modded cars. In fact, it was designed to prevent a manufacturer from forcing you to purchase only their products to maintain your warranty... In fact you can even have work done by a mechanic outside the dealer... As long as their work did not cause the problem your car is still covered.
> 
> Below is an opinion that was rendered on this subject:
> 
> ...


bull30, 
By just following what you used as an example, the OP would have been within Warranty Claim. It was discovered a screw had backed out of the flapper in the manifold..........so in a APR stage 2 tune, DP, FMIC car where would they have compromised the manifold or compromised being able to read OBD 2 to read any diagnostics.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, was exactly for this purpose, Manufacturers were voiding drive train warranties for people changing mufflers. Voiding engine warranties for adding a K & N filter. Voiding engine warranties because you put a short shifter in. Voiding warranties because you used a farm filter and not a motor craft. 

Its apparent, and I'm sure Audi surely appreciates your standing behind them..........But not all of us walk blindly into the sun because "Thats their policy" just because its their policy doesn't make it legal.

Now, if the OP had complained that his clutch/tranny/haldex blew after adding an extra 100hp, then you sir would be correct, but in this issue, I strongly disagree with your point of view.

Would the sheep follow the Shepherd if they knew what was for dinner?


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

Not4show said:


> bull30,
> By just following what you used as an example, the OP would have been within Warranty Claim. It was discovered a screw had backed out of the flapper in the manifold..........so in a APR stage 2 tune, DP, FMIC car where would they have compromised the manifold or compromised being able to read OBD 2 to read any diagnostics.
> 
> The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, was exactly for this purpose, Manufacturers were voiding drive train warranties for people changing mufflers. Voiding engine warranties for adding a K & N filter. Voiding engine warranties because you put a short shifter in. Voiding warranties because you used a farm filter and not a motor craft.
> ...


It wasn't my point of view... It was a rendered opinion based on litigation... If you want my point of view, I'll give it to you...

Forums are a venue for someone to state their feelings, opinion, thoughts, etc... It's only their side of the story with usually no rebuttal from the other parties... On this thread we have ONLY the opinion, feelings and point of view of the car owner... There is also the view of Audi and the dealership... Non of us know the facts from ALL viewpoints... Like the great Paul Harvey said "And now the rest of the story"... I'm sure there's much more to this than meets the eye... I can tell you from my standpoint, attitude and relationship means everything along with a healthy dose of humility... This will get you a lot further than threats... I'm fairly sure that no one on this forum has a team of lawyers at their disposal like Audi...


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Guys, I did not post this on here to start a war of words or anything like that. I simply meant to explain my situation so that others who own this car know what "fire" they are playing with. I know that engines have been replaced in the past and if this would have happened to me 9 months ago, mine probably would have been replaced by Audi for free also. Unfortunately since then, Audi has come down with a hard line of not covering warranty under any circumstance if the car has been tuned. 

As I said, I can understand their situation with all of the blown motors, but what bothers me is that in my case it was not caused by anything that I did. I have had 2 separate Audi techs (both of who are the "experts" at the dealership for this car) tell me that my tune did not cause this in any way and that it was an assembly/manufacturing issue. This is the point that I think Audi then used the tune as an escape out of covering it. Btw, for the record.. other than the techs that told AoA that it was a screw and that the tune did not cause the issue.. no one from Audi has looked at the car. So its not like they sent out an "expert" that then inspected the car and disputes what my techs told them, they just flat out refuse to cover it regardless. 

Bull30: I can promise you that if your situation happened today, you would not have received that "get out of jail free card". That is my point that I mainly wanted to share with everyone, they are refusing them no matter what.. no matter how loyal you are and no matter what actually caused the issue.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

I certainly appreciate you telling your story. I put the APR downpipe on my car a while back but I never trusted any of the tunes so my ecu is still stock. It is information like this that makes it a much easier decision to keep it that way. Again, sorry for all of your troubles and glad to hear the car is back up and running.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

croman44 said:


> Bull30: I can promise you that if your situation happened today, you would not have received that "get out of jail free card". That is my point that I mainly wanted to share with everyone, they are refusing them no matter what.. no matter how loyal you are and no matter what actually caused the issue.


This represents *EXACTLY* what I'm talking about... *YOU* don't know what I would or would not receive... I never expected ANYTHING from Audi... In fact when the VP of Audi Service interviewed me all I asked them for was "consideration"... He told me at that time they were inclined to deny warranty coverage but that he would get back to me in the morning... When he called the next day he stated that due to the fact that I told him all the facts and did not try to cover up anything and that everything I told him matched the black box and considering my families loyalty to Audi they were giving me the "get out of jail free card".

Unlike you, I can't make any comments on how you handled the situation. I can tell you from what you have written you should read _Everything is Different_ by Frigyes Karinthy and learn about the "Six Degrees of Separation"... You just got to have the right people fighting for you...


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

bull30 said:


> This represents *EXACTLY* what I'm talking about... *YOU* don't know what I would or would not receive...


I can tell you that your case was actually brought up during all of this when we were talking to AoA. The warranty rep flat out said that they covered some in the past but that they would not be covered today. Audi has put a hard denial on these motors if they are tuned.

I am not sure why you have hostility towards so many people in this thread and to me. I am honestly very happy for you that you were able to get yours covered. Heck, if it happened to someone tomorrow and they got it covered I would be happy for them also. Confused, but happy. The last thing I want to see is anyone on here or any Audi owner in general have to go through something like this and not be covered.

Again.. my main point in all of this is that regardless of what we have seen in the past.. regardless of what people believe will happen.. that while Audi may have considered circumstances in the past, Audi now as a firm denial stance on TTRS motors if tuned. It has nothing to do with me vs you, or my loyalty vs your loyalty (still confused why you turned that part into a me vs you thing..).. it only has to do that I want other TTRS owners to beware so that they can hopefully avoid something like this.

I can tell you that if a story like this was out there before I tuned my car, I probably would not have done it. Maybe this will help someone else make that choice.


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## ATSR (Aug 1, 2014)

OP: I feel bad for the situation, but at least you see a silver lining after the whole thing. Good for you :thumbup:

Would it be possible that you post a picture of the screws that created the whole mess? I want to make sure that the ones in my car are not going to fly into my engine.

Thanks!


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

Now you speak for AoA... You are right about one thing though... If it happened to me today they wouldn't cover it because I already got a FREE replacement...



croman44 said:


> I can tell you that your case was actually brought up during all of this when we were talking to AoA. The warranty rep flat out said that they covered some in the past but that they would not be covered today. Audi has put a hard denial on these motors if they are tuned.
> 
> I am not sure why you have hostility towards so many people in this thread and to me. I am honestly very happy for you that you were able to get yours covered. Heck, if it happened to someone tomorrow and they got it covered I would be happy for them also. Confused, but happy. The last thing I want to see is anyone on here or any Audi owner in general have to go through something like this and not be covered.
> 
> ...


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

All this is likely TMI but some may find it useful. Google of "harmonics, 1st and 2nd order in reciprocating engines" will probably yield more information.

Crankshafts have natural harmonics. It is a big part of what determines an engines rev limiter. The M5X family of engines in BMWs for instance have a wicked 2nd harmonics at 7300 which is a big reason those 6 cylinders do not typically run above that unless rotational/reciprocating is heavily ratio'd to move the that up to above 8500, at which point the 1st harmonic gets pretty harsh for daily driving. The 2nd harmonic on the BMW rips key ways out of cranks, shears flywheel bolts and is very violent.

On a 5 cylinder, on a 50/50 ratio, the second resonance would occur in the 7400-7600 range but the onset of the resonance would start to show as early as 7000. It is not nearly as harsh as the bmw, but it is still there vibrating and loosening up fasteners. After all, why do high RPM motors typically rattle everything lose? 

On the original 20vt i5, we tend to adjust the balance ratios to get the second harmonic to happen in the 8700 rpm range which lifts the 1st harmonic to 3300 or so. This is a compromise, as your 1st harmonic is now squarely in the cruise range you often find yourself in at 80mph in 6th. For race cars, not a big deal, but for a street car, the 2800 1st, 7400 2nd is much better as you typically drive through 2800. Bonus info, the 3rd harmonic on a i5 is extremly harsh at ~11800. It rips flywheels off, shears key ways on drysump systems, etc. We help support a landspeed car out at Bonneville that battled the phenomena for a couple of seasons before moving rotational weight ratios up to keep the 3rd harmonic outside of the sustained 11500rpm he would see at speed(280mph)

Why share this? If you are flashing an ECU and raising the rev limiter, you will be closer to the 2nd natural resonance. This is more vibration and stress that is not linear with RPM. So it may seem like you guys are not doing any thing to the engine additional by flashing the ECU, but the engine is a system. The TTRS got a special Fluid Dampener and a dampened primary tensioner on teh front belt pulley to help combat the slightly higher RPM that the TTRS has vs the 2.5 NA engines in Jettas, and this helps a bit, but the harmonics on a 2.5 NA engine are so harsh you can not keep belts on them above 7400rpm unless you shift the resonances or get crafty with bandaid fixes to try and hold the belts through the resonances.

The other expert witness bit of info that would come up if you did try and take Audi to court over this bit of info is that Intake Air Temps on a flashed TTRS shoot through the roof with the k16. All metals expand linear to temperature increase. Albeit a small amount per degree, it is still a expand and contract depending on the delta. If you at the stock boost with the k16 within it's compressor map efficiency, you will not see nearly the delta temperatures that you will see with a k16 being overspun as all of these flashed ECUs do. An aftermarket IC would help curb these temps obviously. 

Look Audi probably has a team of between 30-40 engineers that worked on the TFSI engine and probably another team of 15-20 that wrote the software for the car. They collaborate on the subjects and come up with the most power they can stand behind with a warranty. It is absolutely amazing to me that guys put Audi's tune/calibration and tuners(tiny fraction of the man power, a sliver of the resources and zero liability of something does happen) on the same playing field. Then Audi is suppose to be responsible for the alteration to the system they did not authorize or put into production. If it was that "easy", I am sure Audi would have loved to put a 430hp product out there instead of the 360hp that has a warranty. I am sure there were some on the calibration team of engineers that wanted to up the power but were over ruled in the name of warranty and making money ultimately. 

I am not saying all this to be self rightous. I have never owned a stock software car and love to roll the dice. I have never been seriously bit, but the chance is always there. Stock cars are just no fun 

The same phenomena is found with Smart phones. Guys(like myself) get a brand new phone, root it, unlock the processor and the safety mechanisms and then whine when something is wrong with the phone. How exactly does my rooted phone void my warranty on my cracked screen or faulty speaker? I dunno, ask Samsung.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

As always your posts make very interesting reading...


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

bull30 said:


> As always your posts make very interesting reading...


if I was smart enough to understand them  ok, I get the jist of it.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Hank, the increased resonance loading is a good counter argument, but would need to be coupled with black box evidence that the engine was actually taken noticeably above the OEM rev limit.

It would also need analysis showing that the vibration loading difference between OEM rev limit and the black box shown actual max rev limit was higher than the natural OEM loading at any of the other RPM ranges.


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## Evilevo (Apr 29, 2009)

Marty said:


> Hank, the increased resonance loading is a good counter argument, but would need to be coupled with black box evidence that the engine was actually taken noticeably above the OEM rev limit.
> 
> It would also need analysis showing that the vibration loading difference between OEM rev limit and the black box shown actual max rev limit was higher than the natural OEM loading at any of the other RPM ranges.


I personally don't see the need to rev above 7k. Every single dyno I've seen of stage 1 or 2, shows the car falling off past like 6k rpm. Hell, even my old S4 which was a built 2.8L with GT2871Rs and built to rev to 8500rpm, I shifted at 7k or at most 7500 because anything past 6500 it started to fall off.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

URHank said:


> I heard about this engine from a friend of mine at IMOLA(well used to be at Imola). What a bum situation.


Sam? I love Sam. Great guy



> You should have called us up. I likely could have put a built motor into the car for less than you paid out of pocket including the labor! Well close atleast.
> 
> Hank


I may be hitting you up still, in the next few months I will be looking into what I am going to do with the spare. 

As for the cost, if I had paid say $7k for a rebuild on this motor initially, I would have only saved a total of $4-5k after the cost of my future rebuild. To me that extra cost is worth it to have this spare motor and turbo. Trust me, I thought about it

Thanks Hank


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Evilevo said:


> I personally don't see the need to rev above 7k. Every single dyno I've seen of stage 1 or 2, shows the car falling off past like 6k rpm. Hell, even my old S4 which was a built 2.8L with GT2871Rs and built to rev to 8500rpm, I shifted at 7k or at most 7500 because anything past 6500 it started to fall off.


Straight line performance, the k16 is done at 5500, so yes, acceleration times are faster with a shift. Road course racing, holding a gear through a turn can be faster, and that is where the raised limiter is the nicest. Harmonics are independent of power or loading( within reason in a frictionless utopia), so the harmonics would still happen. 

Marty, I guarantee you Audi has harmonic's data up to 8500 on the TFSI. That is engine building 101 when designing a crankshaft. The blackbox data would show RPM's reached of course, it would not be hard to establish higher than factory redline data.

Yes, Sam is a good guy. Glad we have him down in Arizona at Evolution. I should see him next weekend when we host our yearly event in Las Vegas. Let me know if you need help with the second engine, or give me first right on the damaged engine if you end up selling the car or needing to move it. I am interested in how beat up the head and turbo got. A flapper bolt would likely bounce aroudn enough to bend valves and then chuck out the exhaust into the turbine. Hopefully the turbine survived. 

Hank


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Yep, the screw never made it out of the cylinder. They have a pic at the dealership, I will get it and post. 

I won't have access to the actual screw (it's still inside) until my buddy (Andy Torres) takes it apart. 

Say Hi to Sam for me. Oh, I won't share the story on here but ask him about the first time he did a tune for me on my B7 S4 .


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## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

bull30 said:


> It wasn't my point of view... It was a rendered opinion based on litigation... If you want my point of view, I'll give it to you...
> 
> Forums are a venue for someone to state their feelings, opinion, thoughts, etc... It's only their side of the story with usually no rebuttal from the other parties... On this thread we have ONLY the opinion, feelings and point of view of the car owner... There is also the view of Audi and the dealership... Non of us know the facts from ALL viewpoints... Like the great Paul Harvey said "And now the rest of the story"... I'm sure there's much more to this than meets the eye... I can tell you from my standpoint, attitude and relationship means everything along with a healthy dose of humility... This will get you a lot further than threats... I'm fairly sure that no one on this forum has a team of lawyers at their disposal like Audi...


Your right, Forums are for SH&*house lawyers to sell our snake oil:laugh:........

I was just giving another POV.

But back on subject(sorta) 

I think the most important part when dealing with questionable warranties such as this, is the relationship between the Dealer and AoA and then the Owner and the dealer. 


Who knows maybe this dealer isn't on the up and up with AoA and has done a lot of questionable claims with AoA, so now they scrutinize everyone that comes through? I know I've dealt with enough VW Audi and BMW dealers to know, that Dealers have different levels of status with the manufacturers, and that status definitely affects how warranty claims are dealt with, especially big ticket items like this..........I've definitely omitted(unknowingly of course) possible modifications that I've done, before warranty repairs on a few cars.

Anyhow, If I blow my motor I'll be dragging my car to Vegas on a trailer to UrHank and then Fly back in when he's done so I can drive it home.:beer:


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## ATSR (Aug 1, 2014)

croman44 said:


> Yep, the screw never made it out of the cylinder. They have a pic at the dealership, I will get it and post.
> 
> I won't have access to the actual screw (it's still inside) until my buddy (Andy Torres) takes it apart.
> 
> Say Hi to Sam for me. Oh, I won't share the story on here but ask him about the first time he did a tune for me on my B7 S4 .


Could you post a pic of where the screw was attached before it came loose and ended up in the cylinder? 

I would like to make sure that the same doesn't happen to my TTRS.

Thx!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

URHank said:


> The blackbox data would show RPM's reached of course, it would not be hard to establish higher than factory redline data.


Oh, to the contrary: it would be quite hard indeed if the owner never took the motor over the factory redline!


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Yes, if it was never rev'ed above the factory limiter, it wouldn't log the event and that would be a non issue. My gut is that most TTRS engines have kissed the rev limit atleast once, especially if road course driven. Again, not for power, but just to get through a corner without a downshift to unsettle. I could be wrong though. 

Hank


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## IMARMED (May 10, 2014)

URHank said:


> Look Audi probably has a team of between 30-40 engineers that worked on the TFSI engine and probably another team of 15-20 that wrote the software for the car. They collaborate on the subjects and come up with the most power they can stand behind with a warranty.


I'd say marketing has as much a role as engineering. The TTRS sold in Europe neutered to 335hp with a £3,085 option to unlock 360hp ("Plus"). In addition to warranty concerns, the number is dialed to meet competing car HP numbers and price targets. I'm more interested in how much power you say we can safely make. My warranty is up in a few months... 

From a marketing perspective, the "no tune" rule is bad business. Subaru learned that with the STi and went from a zero-tolerance attitude to something slightly more lenient. E.g., I burned through my brake pads in the first six months and told my dealer, "Yeah, track days." Free Brembo pads, anyway, without asking. Fixing a dozen RS engines is cheaper than one day of Audi's advertising budget (something like $100m) and probably sells more cars.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

IMARMED said:


> I'd say marketing has as much a role as engineering. The TTRS sold in Europe neutered to 335hp with a £3,085 option to unlock 360hp ("Plus"). In addition to warranty concerns, the number is dialed to meet competing car HP numbers and price targets. I'm more interested in how much power you say we can safely make. My warranty is up in a few months...
> 
> From a marketing perspective, the "no tune" rule is bad business. Subaru learned that with the STi and went from a zero-tolerance attitude to something slightly more lenient. E.g., I burned through my brake pads in the first six months and told my dealer, "Yeah, track days." Free Brembo pads, anyway, without asking. Fixing a dozen RS engines is cheaper than one day of Audi's advertising budget (something like $100m) and probably sells more cars.


Great points. In my opinion, the motor is capable of much more, the turbocharger is not a lifetime turbo at stage 1 or 2 levels. 

Yes, staging a car in a lineup is important. A TTRS can not make more power and be faster than the R8 obviously. I do think the Zero Tolerance does deter people from modifying and flashing the ECU because if they did support it or forgive those that did, eveyrbody woudl be doing it. 

But yeah, I am sure there has been a bit of thought and cost analysis put into the strict policy running in the VAG circle these days.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

so nobody messed with this screw? it just happened to undo itself and fall in? where do i find this screw, strange for them to be on the inside of air intake path to engine...

i have mis-shifted from 3rd to 2nd 2-3 times, but each time i was fast enough to realize it happened didnt let the clutch out all the way and pushed it back in, one time was worse, it then triggers an over-rev code in the engine section of vag-com, there is no CEL, but it says overrev, the rpms you hit, time, date, speed, etc everything is logged lol just hit clear


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

It has been asked a few times on here

No, no one ever messed with that screw. My engine had never been touched for any reason. 

There are 10 of these little screws, 2 per cylinder on the intake flap. I will post pics once I get them and will ask today


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Two things. First:



lpriley32 said:


> sorry to hear about your troubles man. I am in a similar situation with my clutch failing at 33k miles. I am a first time Audi buyer and I know how I have treated the clutch up to this point but it is a "wear and tear" item. AoA and my dealership came up with a similar compromise....and I feel the exact same way you do! Totally appreciate the effort of everyone involved but I feel like I shouldn't have been out anything as I don't believe it was my fault.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the car. Glad it is back up and running.
> 
> This is the exact reason I have not tuned my ECU yet!


33,000 miles is well within a clutch's typical lifetime on a car that you are presumably driving hard. My Golf R clutch was slipping at 4,000 miles.

Second thing:

They charged you $27,000 to put in a $12,000 engine? :/

I would have said, okay, the 1/3 deal is fine -- but we're going to install the engine at a fair price. You can buy them shipped from Germany, brand new, for $12,500, and most of the parts on your car are reusable so I'm assuming Audi could have installed it for FAR less than that. (they didn't need to replace anything in the cooling system, the ECU, the turbo, the exhaust manifold, any of the wiring harnesses, or the intercooler)


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

You can't buy a long block for $12,500... Maybe a short block, not a long block... Long block price is $17,000+



jsausley said:


> Two things. First:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Basically that is accurate. That is in line iwth what retail is on engines from Audi or other dealers from what I have seen

http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=747770&ukey_make=1081&ukey_model=15653&ukey_category=21737&ukey_trimLevel=19070

Labor is about 30 hours to swap everything over to the new block, about 40 if it is your first time(most dealers or individuals have never done one before)


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

Croman, what are you going to do once your engine is repaired?
It's the ages old question: To tune... or not to tune?


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Just wanted to give an update because unfortunately, the issues did not end when I got my car back from the dealership.

I did not notice it right away after I got the car back since I was babying it (break-in mode), but I soon realized that my car was not giving boost like it should. I finally realized it when I hit the gas on the highway and the car literally did nothing. No boost, no acceleration.. nothing. I eventually just went WOT and I was able to get the car to throw a "Supercharger/Turbocharger underboost condition".

I called the dealership and took it back the following day. When they were able to look at it, they ran all the tests they could run and came to the conclusion that it was not a hardware issue, but an ECU issue. My first thought was "oh great, I am going to run into an Audi vs APR argument back and forth about who is at fault".

I called APR and to my surprise was able to actually talk to someone. I told them the whole situation with the car, the engine change, etc.. and the person on the phone told me that when the initial incident happened that the ECU may have put itself into limp mode and that a reflash should fix the issue.

The next day I took my car back to the shop and I immediately took one of the techs out for a drive to show him the issue. It made me sick to my stomach to be driving the car like this, especially considering how much money I just paid to get my car back. We got back to the shop and as we were pulling in we thought we heard some tapping noise coming from the engine compartment but then it stopped. We opened up the hood and immediately discovered that there was some kind of liquid splash in the engine bay. We looked and could not find the source but we took the car out again because we wanted to see about the noise. Once again when we pull in, we heard the tapping noise but as before, it went away. Opened up the hood and holy crap, the radiator hose had come off. Apparently when they installed the engine, they never actually clipped the radiator hose clamp down. As we were cleaning that up and looking around, we also discovered that the left front cv boot had been cut somehow (assuming during the engine install).

Ugh, will the problems never end? So back to the boost issue.. We reflashed the car and that initially "seemed" to fix the issue. We took the car out and did some logging and it was driving much better.. put it in 93 and the power seemed to be there. We took it back to the shop and I put it back to stock. Made sure the engine coolant was all topped off, cleaned out what we could and I left for the day.

The next day I went to go take my car on a few errands (note: every time I get in the car I feel immediate stress.. I have no trust in this car at this point) and when I started it, I hear that tapping noise again. I can not for the life of me figure it out. At this point I call the dealership and and talk to them (I had already told them about the radiator hose and the cv boot) about the noise and we plan for me to take the car in so they can fix the cv boot, diagnose the noise and give the car a full look over since apparently there are issues from the install. Right after I hang up with them, I hear the noise again and I am able to figure out where it is coming from. There are two fans on the radiator and one of them is hitting a hose/bracket that is right next to it. 

At this point I take the car out on the errands and of course I have to test the car. I take this car down a old country road that we have here and I get the car up to about 80 in stock and I can feel the car hesitate and it immediately throws the same underboost condition. I switch it to 93 and the car drives great.. did a quick 0-120 and down.. then back up to 120 and down.. no issues. Put it back in stock and it is still broken . Strange that it would only have the issue in Stock mode right? So at this point I am thinking that it is indeed the tune.

So I plan on dropping the car off at my shop over the weekend so that they can send the ECU into APR. During this time, I rent a trailer and head over to the dealership to go pick up my initial broken engine. I call the dealership and they tell me that it is all ready and that they will meet me at the door by the parts department and will load it. I literally call them when I am 30 secs out and they tell me which door to get to. When I arrive, no one is outside like I would have though so I go inside to find out what is happening. It is at this point that I am then notified by my service rep that he was just informed that he can not release the engine to me. Something about since it was covered under "warranty"... really? warranty? that they have to wait for Audi to pay their portion of the bill and that even then he may not be able to release the engine to me.. that he may be told by Audi that he has to scrap it. 

Now at this point I am thinking that I hope it does not go that route because I do not want this to turn into a legal issue. When I was given the offer about only paying 1/3rd of the cost, I was told that I would get the engine and the turbo. My saleguy, my service rep and I talked about it at length and he will verify that with Audi if it comes to that. That was part of the deal, one of the main reasons I went with the deal. If I was not going to get my engine back, I probably would have instead paid for a rebuild for $4k vice a $9k bill. Also of note, the ONLY reason I agreed to put a new turbo on the car was because I was going to get the spare. That was $800 on the bill just for that. The mechanic at the dealership told me that the turbo was fine and it did not need to be replaced, but they were fine doing it and my cost was $800. That is something that I WOULD NOT have done if I was not going to get the spare turbo back.

I still do not have any word on me receiving the engine/turbo back... that is still on hold.

So this past Sunday I dropped my car off at the shop so that they could send in the ECU and on Monday they sent it to APR. I believe that APR received it yesterday. Today I get a call back and get my first sort of good news since all of this started. APR has informed me that after investigating my ECU, they have determined that if you switch your tune back to Stock using the Phone App that it will have the issues I was dealing with. However they believe that if I use my cruise control it should work fine.

So this means that my boost issues this entire time was caused by the Bluetooth dongle/iPhone App from APR. They are going to overnight the ECU back to my shop and hopefully I will have my car back tomorrow afternoon. I will then plan to take my car back to the dealership to have the install issues fixed and the car fully looked over.

Issues since I got my car back

No Boost - This is hopefully figured out
Radiator Hose - Fixed, but should not have happened
CV Boot - Still needs to be fixed by the dealership
Fan hitting Bracket - Still needs to be fixed by the dealership
Delivery of old engine/turbo - Still waiting on this to be resolved

I can not even begin to talk about how much stress this is and has been. I am literally thinking about selling the car when everything is sorted and then buying a different TTRS.

Also at this point I owe my shop a few hours worth of labor for all of their investigation and $50 for the shopping to APR of my tune (overnight with $1500 insurance). I am asking them to talk to APR in hopes of them paying the bill instead. The issues and time were a direct result of an issue with their system and my problem helped them discover the issue so that they could fix it.

So anyways, those of you that have the APR dongle/Phone App: Hopefully APR will come out with an update to fix it.. until then, use your cruise control if you need to move your car back to stock.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

These issues are exactly why I've left my car stock.....just not worth the risk for the incremental increase. Sorry your having so many issues and hope it gets fixed soon.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

So the Audi dealer put in the new engine with the APR tune on your ECM? If so, do you have several APR programs such as Stock, 93 Octane, 100 Octane? There's a reason I ask the question?


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

The dealership did not do anything with my ECU. 

My current programs are Stock, 91, 93 and 100. 

Before my car went to the dealership for the initial problem I put it back to stock using my Mobile App. Thus the boost issues when I picked it up. (Assuming what APR is telling me is what is really wrong)


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

croman44 said:


> The dealership did not do anything with my ECU.
> 
> My current programs are Stock, 91, 93 and 100.
> 
> Before my car went to the dealership for the initial problem I put it back to stock using my Mobile App. Thus the boost issues when I picked it up. (Assuming what APR is telling me is what is really wrong)


'
There is a problem with the APR stock tune... It's not the Audi Stock tune... My car continually kept going into limp mode (no boost)... I had my tuner take off the APR tune and return to FACTORY stock... Problem solved... I'm done with APR, I now have the UM tune and it's great... Many have complained about this but APR has not fixed...


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Correct, it's with APRs stock tune.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

croman44 said:


> Correct, it's with APRs stock tune.


Let me guess, you took it to the dealer and they couldn't find anything... Also, when you have boost, your factory boost gauge only goes up about half way. Have your tuner return it to the REAL Audi stock... This happened to my TTRS and my friend Adam's TTRS... I took mine to the dealer and they found nothing... I then had NGP remove the tune and problem solved.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

croman44 said:


> Just wanted to give an update because unfortunately, the issues did not end when I got my car back from the dealership.


Wow. Sounds familiar... I've been living a similar hell of the car constantly in and out of the shop for one thing after another. Really sorry to hear that.

The "APR stock" issue with APR Mobile vs. the cruise stalk sounds really odd. Did APR give you anything in writing about this? Is this something affecting all TT tunes, or just the TTRS tune? I've been using APR Mobile exclusively for all switching, but admittedly I never use stock mode.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

Marty said:


> Wow. Sounds familiar... I've been living a similar hell of the car constantly in and out of the shop for one thing after another. Really sorry to hear that.
> 
> The "APR stock" issue with APR Mobile vs. the cruise stalk sounds really odd. Did APR give you anything in writing about this? Is this something affecting all TT tunes, or just the TTRS tune? I've been using APR Mobile exclusively for all switching, but admittedly I never use stock mode.


Only the TTRS tune as far as I know... Getting a response from APR as to a problem with their software is next to impossible... Also given the small numbers of TTRS compared to the like of the S4 & GTI will severely limit the amount of time they spend fixing the software glitches for the TTRS... That's why I changed over to the UM tune... I also like that I change the parameters like octane, boost, no lift shift timing and launch rpm all through VAGCOM...


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## Jetronic (Mar 12, 2002)

Am I the only one with APR stage 2 TTRS that hasn't had any issues? I have a fully loaded ECU (spring sale) but never use stock mode. Why would you use that mode? My last two APR stage 1 TTs never had the extra programs. I drive my car very aggressively and it has performed flawlessly (knock on wood). Just wanted to chime in as one of APR's satisfied customers.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Jetronic said:


> Am I the only one with APR stage 2 TTRS that hasn't had any issues? I have a fully loaded ECU (spring sale) but never use stock mode. Why would you use that mode? My last two APR stage 1 TTs never had the extra programs. I drive my car very aggressively and it has performed flawlessly (knock on wood). Just wanted to chime in as one of APR's satisfied customers.


I never had any issues either, until that screw backed out and went in the engine. I do not pin that on APR at all.

Now the stock mode not working right, which in turn has caused me to chase my own tail for the last 2-3 weeks... That is APRs issue. To me it was not a Major issue, but it was a small issue that came at one of the worst possible times for me and may cost me $200 out of my pocket if they do not pay for it.

As for why would you run stock? If you need to take your car into the dealership and you do not want them to see its tuned maybe... or in my case, because there is a new engine in the car and I need to take it through its break-in period. I was trying to do it the right way by doing it in stock mode so that its easier to baby the car.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

croman44 said:


> As for why would you run stock? If you need to take your car into the dealership and you do not want them to see its tuned maybe... or in my case, because there is a new engine in the car and I need to take it through its break-in period. I was trying to do it the right way by doing it in stock mode so that its easier to baby the car.


Which is exactly why I did it because there was issues after they put in the new engine... So I had the module via APR dongle returned to APR STOCK mode and then all the problems occurred... You would think it is the AUDI STOCK mode but it's not... The only way you can go back to AUDI STOCK is if you take the APR tune off the car...


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

croman44 said:


> Hopefully APR will come out with an update to fix it..


Done.

As I posted in the other thread, the method of switching had nothing to do with this. There was an issue with the stock file we loaded for the TT-RS. It's been resolved. If anyone else has this problem, get reflashed and stock will work as it should.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Done.
> 
> As I posted in the other thread, the method of switching had nothing to do with this. There was an issue with the stock file we loaded for the TT-RS. It's been resolved. If anyone else has this problem, get reflashed and stock will work as it should.


So in what manner did you notify all the purchasers of the TTRS flash that this was fixed? I can tell you for sure the I was NEVER notified by anyone from APR or your dealer that APR had resolved this issue... I own the Stage II 93 Octane, 100 Octane & Stock programs...


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

bull30 said:


> So in what manner did you notify all the purchasers of the TTRS flash that this was fixed? I can tell you for sure the I was NEVER notified by anyone from APR or your dealer that APR had resolved this issue... I own the Stage II 93 Octane, 100 Octane & Stock programs...


This.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

The file was fixed Friday night due to the issues with my car. It was not fixed prior to this so it was not something that would have been relayed to you in the past. 

I do want to thank Sean for working with me on this, it was nice to enjoy my car again.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

If I were you I would make the car back stock (including the software) and enjoy it as it is. You will see how smooth it actually works and hopefully you will not damage the engine again. It's too expensive to tune it and not be 100% sure that everything goes well.


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