# Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

Hey guys,
Just wanted to show how we are going about doing a direct port water/meth. injection set up. The set up will have the 6 direct port nozzles as well as another nozzle pre-throttle body. This will give us the best of both worlds, direct port for ideal anti-detonation and pre-TB for charge air cooling. 
You don't hear/see too much about set ups like this and we have had great success with them in the past. We have also always been worried about even distribution with single nozzles, this is the solution.

There are many ways to install the nozzles. If you have a cast manifold and the wall thickness is over .125", you could go ahead and tap the runner directly. I used thin wall tubing for my runners, so i had to weld on some bungs.








I left them "blank" and then machined them all to the same height.








Then drilled and tapped them all.
















With nozzles and plumbing installed








































This is about as far as I have gotten with the set up so far. I will post some updates as I get the pre-TB jet installed and all the plumbing set up on the car.


----------



## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

this is absolutely awesome. great work!!! 
where did you get that guage? i love it!! my meth setup only has an "on/off" light, so i know when it's working, but that guage is a great idea. 
here is my light........ (in the washer sprayer, don't mind the lint on it in the pic)


----------



## bjtgtr (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

Very nice work. Let us know how it performs for you.








What size nozzles r u using on the runners?
X2 about what type of gauge that is.


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (bjtgtr)*

The nozzles are .3mm and flow about 90cc/min @125psi. From what we have found and been advised about you want about 15% w/m to fuel. So take 15% of your total fuel flow. 
Injector size * #cyl. * peak duty cycle * .15
With the addition of the pre-TB nozzle we are looking for about 600-700 cc/min. total.

The gauge is part of the Aquamist HFS-5 system. This is the system going on the car, but it is custom set up for direct port.
You can buy the gauge w/flow meter seperately and use it with just about any system. The whole aquamist set up is no joke though, very precise, instrument grade stuff, w/failsafes built in. It is different than any other system out there, it uses injector pulse width to control w/m injection. There is constant pressure from the pump and a very fast solenoid valve controls the injection (basically like a fuel injector). So, the system basically mirrors w/m injection to fuel injection.


----------



## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

wow, the gauge is not easy to find. but i love it. if i find a place to buy JUST THE guage, i am IN!! check it out in action.......


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cncpete* »_It is different than any other system out there, it uses injector pulse width to control w/m injection. There is constant pressure from the pump and a very fast solenoid valve controls the injection (basically like a fuel injector). So, the system basically mirrors w/m injection to fuel injection.

Very nice work on the manifold/nozzles. I would love to get my hands on one for my 12v.







Megasquirt with MS-Extra firmware controls W/M with the aquamist valve and mirrors the fast acting solenoid to injector channel 2 off the ecu. You may also configure the activation rpm and activation manifold pressure. I have the setup I just described with a single snow 625 injector pre-tb and it seems to work very well. I tend to go through a lot of juice but enjoy the additional ignition timing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

I knew it was just a matter of time until we started seeing this, nice work! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dapucker1 (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (Noobercorn)*









AWESOME... where do i sign http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

Great work as always Pete. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Can't wait to see the results on this.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

Why use water injection when you have the means to run Ethanol








looking really good Pete and this Aquamist HFS-5 is really growing on me. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (Noobercorn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noobercorn* »_if i find a place to buy JUST THE guage, i am IN!! 









http://www.rallysportdirect.co...075d4


----------



## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (IN-FLT)*

ok, now find me a place to lend me 300 bucks and i'm in.


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (Noobercorn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noobercorn* »_ok, now find me a place to lend me 300 bucks and i'm in.









Random google link: http://www.capitalone.com/personalloans/


----------



## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (tekstepvr6)*

beleive me, i have plenty mortgages, and loans.......








thanks tho.


----------



## delasoul87 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (Noobercorn)*

So i have a question how much more power will a meth injection give you if you already have a intercooler...i have a stage 3 vf kit on a mk4


----------



## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (delasoul87)*

meth does not add power by itself. it allows you to run more timing and boost to make more power.


----------



## CapeGLS (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (Noobercorn)*


----------



## anti bling (Dec 13, 2003)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (CapeGLS)*


----------



## Hugh Gordon (Oct 2, 2003)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (anti bling)*

Nice setup! I'm running port injection aquamist on my 1.8t A4.


----------



## ncsumecheng (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (Hugh Gordon)*

Very nice manifold.








In terms of where it is being sprayed though, you're really only reducing knock for timing more so than any charge air cooling.
You want a bigger volume with slower air flow to achieve the best IAT drops. That way there is more time for the spray to work.
The velocity in the runners is much higher than in the plenum.


----------



## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (ncsumecheng)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ncsumecheng* »_Very nice manifold.








In terms of where it is being sprayed though, you're really only reducing knock for timing more so than any charge air cooling.
You want a bigger volume with slower air flow to achieve the best IAT drops. That way there is more time for the spray to work.
The velocity in the runners is much higher than in the plenum. 


_Quote, originally posted by *cncpete* »_This will give us the best of both worlds, direct port for ideal anti-detonation and pre-TB for charge air cooling.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (BLSport)*








Thanks BLSport http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I have done set ups with just direct port though, they seem to work pretty well too. Car had a nice big front mount though, so it may not have needed too much help with charge air cooling anyway.

Work on the W/M set up is coming along. I have the pump and tank mounted but thats about it. We are doing a full build on this car and plumbing and wirng W/M is probably one of the last things getting done. I will update the thread though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Direct port water/meth. injection - custom install (cncpete)*

Work looks great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

Yeah BABY


----------



## Turbo_Pumpkin (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (C2Motorsports)*

Very nice...


----------



## dlsolo (Sep 6, 2004)

Quick question, with the four nozzles where they are, you would have to put a solenoid at the t fitting. With that said, at vacuum, your car will suck what is in the lines, up to the solenoid. How will you keep the fluid in the lines and not allow the boost pressure to fight against the pump trying to fill the lines back up.
It would almost be better to run each nozzle with its own solenoid, then T the lines behind the solenoids.
Okay, i'm gonna stop talking now. just my two cents.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (dlsolo)*

You can't suck if the solenoid is closed, the fluid won't move.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (DieGTi)*

That just didn't sound right...


----------



## dlsolo (Sep 6, 2004)

HAHA, i got what you are saying, but with the angle of which the injectors are and the tubbing, at vacuum, I would thought that the engine will, in a sense, pull the fluid that is in the lines, up to the solenoid.


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: (dlsolo)*

With the solenoid closed it should in theory prevent the remaining w/m from suctioning out. It's like holding your finger on the end of a straw and picking it up out of a glass of water.
Now, the issue in this case that has to be dealt with is the seventh nozzle going pre-tb. It will create a loop between the 6 on the runners and the pre-tb one. So when the tb is closed and the plenum is in vacuum and pre-tb is not, it will draw the remaining w/m out. The solution is a check valve on the one pre-tb nozzle. Aquamist supplied a check valve designed for this. I believe it has a cracking pressure of ~20 in HG so it can never run into a situation where it can be drawn out.
I will get pictures up once it is all layed out. But, basically the flow comes out of the solenoid and feeds all 7 jets.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: (dlsolo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dlsolo* »_ How will you keep the fluid in the lines and not allow the boost pressure to fight against the pump trying to fill the lines back up.

The valve is normally closed. 
Boost pressure is definetly taken into account for. The pump outputs 125psi regulated. When calculating required w/m flow and setting up the system you always use the flow rate of a given jet at 125psi - boost psi.
Aquamist supplies graphs that show this for all their jets.


_Modified by cncpete at 12:58 AM 2-15-2008_


----------



## dlsolo (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: (cncpete)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cncpete* »_
The valve is normally closed. 
Boost pressure is definetly taken into account for. The pump outputs 125psi regulated. When calculating required w/m flow and setting up the system you always use the flow rate of a given jet at 125psi - boost psi.
Aquamist supplies graphs that show this for all their jets.

_Modified by cncpete at 12:58 AM 2-15-2008_

Gotcha. I'm running two nozzles and two solenoids as well. Mainly, I just wanted to make sure that when I spray, I have fluid in the lines and the spray is practically instant. Before, with out them, tuning was a tad bit interesting. But now with the solenoids, I can tune pretty darn precise. 
Anyway, I think you setup is something that I will be looking at in the future. Just need to get this 2.2L engine put together and installed. 
I can't wait to hear how your en devour goes. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: (dlsolo)*

Update:
Got the car pretty much assembled and ready to fire so I thought I would show you guys the finished set up. Custom stereo equipment occupied the trunk so we were forced to mount the reservoir and pump up front, normally we would mount it in the back. On to the pictures.

The pump and res.









Remote filler









Solenoid valve









Flow meter









7th jet on pipe with check valve









Direct port jets all installed









The whole set up
















Gotta break in the clutch and do some tuning on the car before we turn on the water meth. and crank up the boost. I will let you guys know how it works out. Should have some dyno numbers in a few weeks too. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: (cncpete)*

just wanted to comment on the nice work. and to add this, I used a solonoid on my snow water meth system since my injection point was below my tank......well the solonoid was letting fluid past while sitting, almost a cup of water meth came out when I pulled a boost hose one day, went to the devils own spring loaded valve instead, no worries now
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif devils own for a better design


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (cncpete)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cncpete* »_
The whole set up









http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Medici (Mar 27, 2004)

WOW!!!! I don't know what to say. can't wait to hear it fire up and running. 
thank you for the great work Sleepers.


----------



## cncpete (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: (radoman57)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radoman57* »_just wanted to comment on the nice work. and to add this, I used a solonoid on my snow water meth system since my injection point was below my tank......well the solonoid was letting fluid past while sitting, almost a cup of water meth came out when I pulled a boost hose one day, went to the devils own spring loaded valve instead, no worries now
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif devils own for a better design

Solenoid is probably the wrong word for it, it is a high speed valve. It can operate at up to 50hz I believe. It's use on the aquamist set up is not the same as on your snow. With aquamist the pump runs at full speed (but regulated at 125psi) all the time and the valve basically works like a fuel injector to control how much is injected. We have used coolingmist set ups before and they have a system that works the same way.
BTW, this valve will not let anything by when closed. Doing some bench tests with it, the operation is instantaneous. Full blast to nothing in a split second. Not saying they can't fail though, I have heard of some sticking.


----------



## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: (cncpete)*

Sorry, I was just referring to the snow one, the aquamist I'm sure is a quality part. it's just a fyi for any snow users.


----------



## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: (radoman57)*

oh and also, haas vf2 programmer and operator here along with a mazak horizontal....that is when it runs!!!


----------

