# 16V Twin-turbo?



## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

Hi all
Do you know of someone that has made this or ever tried it? I´m tired of 20V and 16V turbos, and I´d like something different on my Mk2. Currently a 20VT superlight Mk1 and a G60T Mk1 on my workshop, so something different considered. No heavy VRs please.


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## DEWEED (May 2, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

theoretically it should work. the only problem is figuring out how to get the throttle bodies to open exactly the same at exactly the same time. or how to run one throttle body that branches into two seperate pipes and of course all piping would need to be custom fabricated as well as exhaust, oil lines, etc.


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

you want something different? 
how about twin garret VNT 25's... you can get em from chrysler


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## Blak Golf (Sep 10, 2003)

is it really worth it to pay double the price and more work just to be different ???


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

depends how much you want to be different. lol

the reason i say VNT 25's is because with the variable vane, the thing might actually spool sometime before redline lol. 
In fact it would probably be a pretty sweet setup if you could get it to work. 
VNT 25 = t25 compressor side btw, so two of them would flow quite a few CFM.


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

If you wanna be different,build something fast and reliable.


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_If you wanna be different,build something fast and reliable.
 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (PITGUY)*


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_If you wanna be different,build something fast and reliable.

but that wouldnt be fun


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: (killa)*

I've considered the same thing lately, I was going to pull it on a 8v but the 16 is a better candidate
my thought was grab a turbo from a turbo sprint in the junkyard or get a k14 from a turbo diesel or somthing and combine it with a larger T3 and I would think it would be pretty unreal
I know for a fact that the k14 spools well well under 2000 rpm. I think it was like 14-1600 rpm's, I had it on my 8v so maybe it would spool even faster on the 16v
I think you should do it. It would be a wicked learning experience and then If it works I'll be a copycat and do the same.


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (purplerabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *purplerabbit* »_I've considered the same thing lately, I was going to pull it on a 8v but the 16 is a better candidate
my thought was grab a turbo from a turbo sprint in the junkyard or get a k14 from a turbo diesel or somthing and combine it with a larger T3 and I would think it would be pretty unreal
I know for a fact that the k14 spools well well under 2000 rpm. I think it was like 14-1600 rpm's, I had it on my 8v so maybe it would spool even faster on the 16v
I think you should do it. It would be a wicked learning experience and then If it works I'll be a copycat and do the same.









You're talking about a sequential turbo setup, which is quite possibly the most complicated thing ever. Controlling the dump valves would be a huge pain in the ass, not to mention difficult. Its only been done on three? production cars, and people upgrade to one turbo because they can't be bothered to build manifold for two different turbos and remap the programming to compensate. But, its an awesome way to do it, and the only way a twin turbo makes more sense than a single one. Two identically sized turbos doesn't make sense for efficiency...it'll always be more efficient to run one larger turbo, and always cheaper to, because even if you score two cheap turbos from a junkyard, you're going to have to custom fab an exhaust manifold for two flanges...it would be cheaper just to go one.
However, as for the being different factor, more show less go works for some, not everything is about speed...I mean, c'mon, we drive VWs


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: (sold on expense)*

you can twin turbo it.....just do it like they do for a twin turbo dodge diesel. this makes like 500hp, 1200tq
study the pic closely....


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2008cc)*

Wow, what a weird way to run the turbines! I never knew you could do that. Also never seen compressors in series like that!


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: (2008cc)*

this setup has absolutly ZERO lag from what I was told by the man who designed it. Talked to him for 30 minutes at SEMA.


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## a2-8v-pgh (Aug 16, 2003)

that looks crazy but a twin sequential 16v would be wicked infact, i was also thinking of something like this...


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## 1Spike (Dec 29, 2002)

The reason why BD and most other diesel tuning shops run sequential turbo is not because of the of the volume of air needed or the zero lag. It's because of the pressure ratio that they are trying to achieve. Three and four stage turbo setups have been used on pulling tractors for years. 500hp is not really that impressive for a Cummins. I'm pretty sure they run water/meth injection to cool the charge. Guys on TDR have picked up 100rwhp with the water/meth injection alone. 
Funny how that have that pop-off valve positioned it must be for show only, because it would never fit under the hood.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (1Spike)*

well [email protected]# why your at it just do a 20VtX4. Even add a super charger and some spray to really break things up.
in all honesty...I would build some that works...and not something to be different. Even though you have those two motors on your bench...I'm kinda curious as to what you have in your car right now. I'm sure any 20vT or 16vT would put a smile on your face.
Jason


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60MAN* »_Hi all
Do you know of someone that has made this or ever tried it? I´m tired of 20V and 16V turbos, and I´d like something different on my Mk2. Currently a 20VT superlight Mk1 and a G60T Mk1 on my workshop, so something different considered. No heavy VRs please.









I understand totally where you are coming from.
You want to be unique....it is unique that gets expressions plastered on peoples faces and it is unique that gets magazine covers.Anyone here own a EUrotuner(january) edition?What colour is the cover car?.....Purple.Eurotuner would not have placed him on the cover if his car was still black.
Your smallest problem would be getting a TB in the centre of the intake manifold to balance out everything.You could always use Quad TB's froma Toyota 20V engine(Japan Spec).That would be alot of fun.A twin Turbo set up is doable.There was one on ebay.de a week ago for what appeared to be a twin turbo Mercedes of some sort.I do know it was a 16V.
Use 2 small turbos or use a Garret T3 and a Garret T60.Have the T3 spool into the T60 and there your good to go.
Please note this is not a budget project and will run into $G's but if you have the money i am sure someone out there has the time.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

Sometimes I forget that some people use cars for expressing their emotions and feelings or whatever.


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## TURBOPHIL (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

The 2004 Peterbilt tractors come with a twin turbo setup where 1 smaller turbo feeds a larger turbo similar to the cummins mentioned above, I have driven a few with the trailer attached and that thing spools up quickly and has huge torque, of course this is a tractor and the reason for the twin setup was primarily to produce torque. 
One thing that I noticed was if that 1st turbo goes then the 2nd would suck everything through so both turbos will be shot.$$$$$$$


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

Yeah,but what was the look you had on your face when you 1st saw it? THAT's the main factor here.


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## rossmc1 (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

If your just after the wow factor,why not build a twin engined car,bi motor!Place in UK done a mk1 with 2x 16v engines with turbo's,also VW done a couple of bimotor's scirocco+G2,i know a few of these have been built,(im sure i seen one mentioned in UK mag from US show report)but if you start with say a 2 door Jetta mk2 it would be pretty unique,and if you turbo both motors you could still say you've a twin turbo set up!and it would work


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (rossmc1)*

why not just build one motor, one turbo, and put all your time and effort into making it the best?
I'm sure for the cost of twin turbo's you could afford a VERY nice ballistic series, and management to make it fun


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_why not just build one motor, one turbo, and put all your time and effort into making it the best?










IMO the reason is,people have already set the bar pretty high,if you do some kooky one off crap you can always fall back on statements like "This is the worlds fastest dual-bi-charged 16v Rabbit painted purple with a "powered by VW seatbelt pad car ever built". You don't need to mention it's the only one,but then again,that's a claim to fame in itself by that logic.
I could say it till I'm blue in the face,"Be different,be fast.Be Different,Make it last"


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

The funny thing is,I'd like to build one myself one of these days.But it's only to do it.I'd never expect much out of it than the challenge of doing it.That's after quite a few single turbo builds though.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

Try building a single turbo car first and see how well you do,THEN maybe think about "dual turbos"







for a 2.0liter...............


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## voltron1011 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

Isn't there a minimum number of cylinder (3) that you need for a turbine wheel to work efficiently. If you have only 2 cylinders powering one turbine you run into a problem where the exhaust gases begin to pelt the turbine blade







. On a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder engine the exhaust gases are more continuous so there is no space between each cylinders gases hitting the turbine blade. This pelting







is hard on the turbine blades and associated components. The 300zx twin turbo had one turbo for each bay of 3 cylinders but it also had 2 intercoolers, two throttle bodies, 2 intakes, etc. This could be done because of the engines V design. Nissan essentially made two 1.5 liter, single turbo motors joined by a crank..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If you want a twin-turbo in a sequential setup (RX7, Supra turbo) where one small turbo spools up first, then the second larger one takes over after a certain pressure. These work very well but are IMMENSLY complicated. Someone told me that the RX7 had countless 3" vacuum tubes incorporated to get there system to work. Ask you many RX7/Supra owners stick with the sequential setup? Most of them opt instead for one large T5 turbo, less expensive and more overall boost. 

_Modified by voltron1011 at 12:41 PM 3-2-2004_


_Modified by voltron1011 at 12:43 PM 3-2-2004_


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## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (voltron1011)*

I already have a G60 fitted to my car (it´s an original G60 Mk2 golf, lucky europeans.....), pushing some 260hp, but I´m tired of rebuilding the G every month or so. I´ve already put together a Mk1 with a 20VT with 420hp, I´m trying to finish the G60 turbo on another Mk1 and there are some TTs and S3 also done. That´s why I´d like something different, I´m tired of 20valvers and 8 turbos, so to keep the company fresh I´d like to make a 16V twin turbo. I´m not after super bright colours, mega sound systems and the like. The 20V Mk1 weights in 790 kilos with a full cage welded in, and Group 2 wide kit... so it could be told we´re a bit on the racing side. 
I´ve got a TDI 130 block sitting around there, and I´ll use as a start point. I´ll try to fit the 16V head (haven´t checked for compatbility yet). One turbo is already on my hands, a T3 super 60 (I think this one will be the small one) from a totalled project (donor of the 20V for the Mk1). At the moment I´m preparing the body, so I´ll keep you posted. 
By the way, do you know where to get STRONG driveshafts?? Here in Spain is impossible................
Also, if you need some european parts, just let me know or e-mail me [email protected]


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

If you truly have a 420hp 1.8T then please show us a time slip,with a big claim like that we need some proof please...............fastest/quickest 1.8T is 12.2 so far,so you should be pretty close,unless you are talking 420"EUROPEAN HP" which is like 200whp.







Sorry man I find your claim hard to believe.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (Holy Piston)*

So please prove me wrong and post up some slips,even if you have a crappy ET your trap will tell the story............


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (Holy Piston)*

why don't you do twincharged







That would impress folks more.
run an eaton (clutched) and a big ass turbo feeding it. [email protected]'s, then kick the turbo in at 3000 and blast that 20psi of t3/t4e for the rest of the run.
That would impress me








I'm not a fan of no low end torque. Post up the dyno. If you got 400wft/lbs @ 2500rpm, then you are the 20v man. If you have that @ 4000rpm, well 1.8T billy has done that before,so thats not very original.


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## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (Holy Piston)*

That´s Spain, we have no quarters here...... :_( I can put here some pics of the car while it was at the workshop, as I´m waiting to download the others from the camera. It´s 420 at the flywheel (gay hp......) It may not be original in the States, but in Spain, where people fits 18inchers on a crappy 75hp 1.4 Golf, it IS original.The car was made with track day in mind, as we usually go to Montmelo (F1 circuit in Barcelona) for some track action. On the pics you´ll notice the welded body. When I have the other pics (and the power graph), I´ll show you. Can someone upload me the pics?



_Modified by G60MAN at 11:14 PM 3-3-2004_


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

Right on my Spanish bro,that is a powerful 1.8T ,what turbo are you running,injector size,fuel management etc.???420 hp 1.8T is a big claim so I just want to know how you did it,and did you tune it yourself?In the states 460whp with turbo and nitrous is the record so far,so you are not too far behind..............


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## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

mmm if it wasnt vw's it would be cummins diesels for me, ive seen street driven dodges that have over 1000hp, will blow columns of smoke 50ft in the air out of the stacks they have


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## Impact_Wrench (Nov 22, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (yellerrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yellerrado* »_mmm if it wasnt vw's it would be cummins diesels for me, ive seen street driven dodges that have over 1000hp, will blow columns of smoke 50ft in the air out of the stacks they have









YEAH! its all about the 1500 ft/lbs of torque and the 4.5" exhaust systems http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
too bad that kind of power isn't available in a Mk1 GTI...


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## trendy_tramp (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_why don't you do twincharged







That would impress folks more.
run an eaton (clutched) and a big ass turbo feeding it. [email protected]'s, then kick the turbo in at 3000 and blast that 20psi of t3/t4e for the rest of the run.
That would impress me


















this was taken last May
we're hitting the dyno end of this month and the car will be launched in the uk in may
more photo's to come as and when
tt


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

beautiful man. Simply beautiful. Keep us updated on that eaton/turbo combo. nice car too. You better watch out for those evo cop cars in london







j/k


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_why don't you do twincharged







That would impress folks more.
run an eaton (clutched) and a big ass turbo feeding it. [email protected]'s, then kick the turbo in at 3000 and blast that 20psi of t3/t4e for the rest of the run.
That would impress me








I'm not a fan of no low end torque. Post up the dyno. If you got 400wft/lbs @ 2500rpm, then you are the 20v man. If you have that @ 4000rpm, well 1.8T billy has done that before,so thats not very original.


I think a sequential turbocharger system is as impressive as a twin-charged setup, just maybe slightly less original (if more complex). I think running a K03 sport/GT20 or some small thing and a T04E on a 16V would satisfy both your goals of low end torque and a broad torque curve from high end horsepower. But this won't ever happen, it would be too costly to make, and although the benefits would be great...what's the point, really? Not many people put down mad cash for daily driveability, that all goes for drag strip glory, which one turbo will satisfy quite fine. I would love to build a sequential system, but I've never found a diagram or written explanation with enough detail to ever fully unveil its little quirks and setups. I know its not as simple as running one turbo's outlet into the inlet of another...if that were the case it would have been done before (in our little circle, forget cummins diesels and a few odd production vehicles).
The problem you would have with a clutched twin-charged enginw would of course be the transition of power, which would be undoubtedly extremely hard to manage. Your idea is to run a hobbes switch to release the clutch on the charger at a given boost, but you'd have to know exactly how many CFMs the charger was flowing at a given boost level (not just theoretical) so there would be a smooth transition of power. But a smooth transition would be impossible anyway, unless you scaled off the charger's boost as the turbo started blowing more. Otherwise you're going to have an extreme jerk of power (less) when you drop off the charger. I don't think a clutched setup is the way to go, you would have an awful dip of power where you make the transition.
EDIT: another way you could smooth the transition would be to dump any boost the charger is producing up to a given point (where the CFMs of the turbo were identical to the charger), then un-clutch the charger and release the wastegate so the power produced at that point would be identical. But, this is, of course, impossible. 


_Modified by sold on expense at 11:58 PM 3-3-2004_


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## grasshopperdrag (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (sold on expense)*

Over here there is a Mk2 running twin turbo on his 16V. I have seen it run, but its a show car so gets limited street use. The car is called seven up or somothing like that and is greeeeen.
Digitalpose does not work so cant add a pic.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (grasshopperdrag)*

Grasshoppah! Post some pics of that twin turbo 16V if you can,I want to see how he packaged that,and as for the "420hp 1.8T guy" I asked him some simple specs about his setup,BASIC stuff like injector size,turbo,management,etc. and I notice no reply........................














lets be real folks


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

There was a guy like that at WF a few years ago,made 400hp on stock injectors! hahaha


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (grasshopperdrag)*


_Quote, originally posted by *grasshopperdrag* »_Over here there is a Mk2 running twin turbo on his 16V. I have seen it run, but its a show car so gets limited street use. The car is called seven up or somothing like that and is greeeeen.
Digitalpose does not work so cant add a pic.

Yes, light/ lime green, he posted here before, ran twin kkk snails with lots of chrome around them, looked nice, but doubt that it'd put down any decent numbers.


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## Ottar. L (Jan 7, 2004)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (killa)*

You dont make any good power in the 1.8t over there?
A dude here made 584hp(crank) in his audi a4 1,8t.
The car will be faster this summer
http://www.dahlbackracing.se/main.asp


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (Ottar. L)*

Does that car(Dahlback ride) have the 5 cyl turbo motor installed inline,or is that the other green car?If it is the 5 cyl Audi engine,it's not really a 1.8T ,is it?iPeeps have posted that the Dahlback car did a mid-low 12 sec ET even with 4wd,I don't know what it trapped,but in America our fastest 1.8T VW is doing 12.2 and trapping 121+mph,ask Dahlback if he has beat that







maybe trap is higher(?) but I don't think that Dahlback car hit 11's so we are not that "far behind you"







and 584 crank hp is like 300 AMERICAN WHP!!!Haha







just kidding!actually it is not much more than 460whp (Billy T.)


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (Holy Piston)*

its not that hard to program the ecu to fire a relay at a specific rpm*VS*BOOST point to disengage the blower.
just another output line. most standalones have extra outputs for functions like this...


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_its not that hard to program the ecu to fire a relay at a specific rpm*VS*BOOST point to disengage the blower.
just another output line. most standalones have extra outputs for functions like this...


But even then you'd be losing x cfm's the charger was producing at that point entirely...If the turbo at that point was pushing 300 cfm, let's say, and so was the charger, when you released the clutch, you'd go from 600 cfms to 300 cfms pumped into the motor...talk about a dip in power. I realize it wouldn't be exactly A-B, but it would still be much less power immediately after you released the supercharger.


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## wintrode (Aug 2, 2001)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (sold on expense)*

Well, maybe not. If you have the wastegate set right, when the charger disengages the wastegate would close some or the whole way to compensate. It would definately take some figuring, and there would definately be some sort of small pressure drop before the wastegate could react, but it should be doable. 
With standalone management, I would think that you could change the wastegate actuator values at the rpm that you want to disengage the charger to smooth it out and then to up the pressure as the rpm increases. I mean this is all in theory, but I would think that it would be possible, right?
It would be alot easier if you could ease off the supercharger instead of an on/off switch though. I guess a diverter valve on the supercharger could be used to do just that. Pretty much set the dv to a certain pressure, as the clutch is disengaged on the SC, the diverter will close to compensate the pressure loss smoothing the transition out a little.



_Modified by wintrode at 2:37 PM 3-5-2004_


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## Impact_Wrench (Nov 22, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (Holy Piston)*

Holy Piston: 
You're probably thinking of "THE DAHLBACK CAR", (aka Golf RSi)
that one is an Audi 5cyl w/ Quattro drivetrain in a Mk4 Golf shell, running something like 30psi to get 575whp








I'm pretty sure thats a formula for better 1/4 times than 12's
but Dahlback Racing also does regular 1.8T tuning, they've got an A4 wagon putting down 440whp. ([email protected])
I'm pretty sure thats the car Ottar is talking about



_Modified by Impact_Wrench at 3:12 PM 3-5-2004_


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (wintrode)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wintrode* »_Well, maybe not. If you have the wastegate set right, when the charger disengages the wastegate would close some or the whole way to compensate. It would definately take some figuring, and there would definately be some sort of small pressure drop before the wastegate could react, but it should be doable. 
With standalone management, I would think that you could change the wastegate actuator values at the rpm that you want to disengage the charger to smooth it out and then to up the pressure as the rpm increases. I mean this is all in theory, but I would think that it would be possible, right?
It would be alot easier if you could ease off the supercharger instead of an on/off switch though. I guess a diverter valve on the supercharger could be used to do just that. Pretty much set the dv to a certain pressure, as the clutch is disengaged on the SC, the diverter will close to compensate the pressure loss smoothing the transition out a little.


Ah, I lost track of even my own thoughts on the issue...what you said is right and clarified the idea for me. Originally, when I said you'd have to match the air flow (what cfm the charger is making and what cfm the turbo is making), but have the turbo constantly blowing off pressure until this point. Then, the turbo would take over where the supercharger left off. So, again, you have the turbo blow off until its making 300 cfms, and clutch the charger when its making 300 cfms. So that way the transition is perfect. I was off on a tangent before, that idea is entirely feasible, but you'd have to do a lot of dyno experimentation to get the transition rpm just right...you'd probably need an electronic boost controller though, as turbos and chargers tend to boost earlier in higher gears, which would change the transition point slightly. Interesting idea, it would be fun to implement, but my fear would be accidently unleashing the power of the turbo before you clutched the charger, which would be a massive onslaught of power and result in a drivetrain shock. 
So let's say you have an eaton with a tiny pulley clutched..use their flow charts to estimate when you trip the hobbes switch, at say 3000 rpm, and use that same hobbes switch to somehow close the wastegate on the turbo, allowing that air to flow into the engine. Then how would design the intake piping? I suppose you run the charger to one intercooler, the turbo to another, then use check valves so only the proper path gets pressurized. Interesting, to say the least...expensive for anyone but someone with cheap access to a dyno and machine shop with very good programming skills. Hey Sam, tell Jwatts to get rid of his 16vABAT and go for some twincharged goodness.


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## the awesome (Oct 7, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (G60MAN)*

All u need is the engine of your choice and this.........
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A...ticle
The rest is money in the bank


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (DubTron41)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubTron41* »_All u need is the engine of your choice and this.........
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A...ticle
The rest is money in the bank









That's it...I'm done with my search for power. Maybe I could even use two!


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

HEY, that just gave me an idea though... 

did anybody here see the REAL electric supercharger? i dunno where / when i saw it... but it was basically a small set of eaton rotors or something powered by a really beefy starter motor... 
you could use that and taper off the juice to it as your turbo boost is coming up! duh


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## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

Engine Specs:
The car runs on a Seat Leon 20VT engine basis, with modified head (water ports are quite small on 3rd pistons), enlarged intake ports standard size valves. Cast echaust manifold with GT30 turbo (turbonetics), running 2.2 Bar, 4 bar fuel, 480cc injectors (original black Bosch),Bosch racing fuel pump, SDS management, 1.9 litre pistons with 8:1 CR, Arrow rods, ARP bolts everywhere, hardened crank, aluminium flywheel (Fidanza) Sachs sport clutch, 3 inch exhaust system cat-less, mocal oil cooler, front intercooler, Turbosmart dump valve, flowed intake manifold (although weÂ´re thinking about something new) and enlarged throttle body. I didn´t map the car, I just put it altogether and inside the Mk1. 
As for 16 up, I quite know that car, but didnÂ´t know it was twin turbocharged. I saw it at the Essen Motorshow last year I think, and it was running just one turbo. But engine detail is brutal, fully chromed, and the 4 door rocks!!! 
For all the "sorry youÂ´re new here, so I donÂ´t believe you", the only thing I can post you is a graph with a G-meter of the car.










_Modified by G60MAN at 4:56 PM 3-6-2004_


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (G60MAN)*

Now that is more like it!,that sounds like a good recipe definitely!!!I like the SEAT body styles,I wish we had them here.......so since you guys in Spain have no 1/4 track do you guys street race drag style or circuit race ?Post some pics of your car,setup sounds cool.................... BTW Impact Wrench he did run the "dahlback car" and it ran 12's, supposedly with a 4wd burnout........BUT peeps in America do better times with 2wd and "less" hp..........







Euro dyno hp I think gets lost in translation somehow and becomes a little inflated


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## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

Power translation from Kw to horsepower is different from Europe to United States, but the difference is not that big..... 
Here, we use to street race, but not straight line. We take twisty roads, normally uphill, and see who´s faster also on the twisty stuff, and of course, circuit racing (the one I prefer). I´ll upload the pics of the car somewhere and put ´em in here. Do you know where to get REAL driveshafts? I´m getting tired of changing them everyweekend we use the car........, and the problem is they´re custom made, because we´re running on Audi S3 front arms, that were quite "easy" to adapt, and are 2 inches wider on each side.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (G60MAN)*

G60man,that sounds very cool,driving fast on twistys with turbo,that is more rally car style,sounds nutz!!! In America we have a lot of 1/4 mile tracks and that is a easier way to compare performance,you can say that your car does XXX time at the 1/4 mile,and a guy in another state/country can say his car does XXX time in the 1/4 mile and a whole lot of crap talking can begin!!














It is hard to compare circuit times in different locales,but circuit racing would be awesome,IF we had a circuit in my neighborhood...........if your needing driveshafts,your making power......... I am still on stocks with about 300whp, but http://www.driveshaftshop.com has some ,$1000.00 US though!!


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## SleepyTT (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: 16V Twin-turbo? (DubTron41)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubTron41* »_All u need is the engine of your choice and this.........
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A...ticle
The rest is money in the bank































Who needs a $1500 supercharger when you have a 55mm fan blowing at a whooping 68cfm


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (G60MAN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60MAN* »_Engine Specs:
For all the "sorry you´re new here, so I don´t believe you", the only thing I can post you is a graph with a G-meter of the car.










Actually, you definitely should...my only frame of reference is that the Enzo pulls 1.15 g's, SVT Cobra's pull 1g, and my Scirocco pulls 0.6g's


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## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

Rally action is great, altghough sometimes is a bit hard to keep it on the bends when the turbo kicks in..... a funny way to burn Yokos


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## dotter (May 29, 2003)

*Re: (G60MAN)*

wow i wish i had seen this thread earlier.
as you all know, chrysler had turbo cars in the '80s. they were 2.2 or 2.5 liters, and either came ith a tiny, fast spooling mitsubishi turbo, or a garret .48/.42 T3 turbo. the mitsu turbo is fully spooled by 2000 rpm or so, while it takes the garret until around 3000 or more rpm. this guy took the log style turbo manifold, which has the turbo on the passenger side, and he welded on another flange he cut off of another turbo manifold onto the other side of it. he ran two of the mitsubishi turbos, with the exhaust outlets pointing at eachother. it was really ghetto fabulous, as when you looked at his welds, they were quite, umm, ferocious, lol. but he claimed that it still spooled faster than a single garret turbo equipped engine, and it was running mid 13's i believe, on an auto tranny. if it really does spool that fast, maybe the fact that only 2 cylanders are essentially feeding each turbo doesnt have as much effect as some may think. anyways, i'll look for the link and post it up!!


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## Ottar. L (Jan 7, 2004)

*Re: (dotter)*

http://www.audituning.com
Holy piston: check out dyno tests, there is a pink audi.
Dont think he ever done any good 1/4mile.
600 europe hp is 300 us? Wake up people....


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Ottar. L)*

Sorry Ottar,don't take it seriously,that was just MY "opinion" due to the high amount of "high hp cars" from Europe and most do not make a good 1/4 ET or for some reason can't get 1/4 ET.Dynos are great I guess,but remember,"when the green light drops,the BS stops"...........1/4 mile will dispell any myths about quoted hp,usually by ET,and even if that is bad, the trap will give you a "real world" indicator of hp and potential.And please do not think I am putting down dahlback or anybody,I love his cars,I am saying that the Americans and Canadians and Peurto Ricans build faster cars for much less money,some of them home brew................... quote me huge dyno #'s,whatever......if there is no performance road figures to back it up,why does it matter...........hell I can tell you I'm making 600.993755 whp and go make a fake dyno graph,just like that guy from Greece with the 500whp 8V show car







I'm buying a Greek manifold I heard I get 200hp more with it!














It's all good G........


_Modified by Holy Piston at 9:19 PM 3-7-2004_


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## Ottar. L (Jan 7, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

holy: Yes, you`re right about that.
But in scandinavia we drive more track, not to much 1/4mile.


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## DIRTYONE (Feb 16, 2004)

run the turbos like a supra


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: (DIRTYONE)*

tis true, go visit uk/europe sometime tom, you'll understand alot that us american's (or islanders) don't quite get about the whole small car phenom.
it's not normal to have drag strips withing 1.5 hrs (east south north west) over there. Those dudes are all bout twisties, 150+ runs (crazee imo), and you cannot dis their rallye action (serious balls).
I can respect auto-x, road-race, and drag race, each is just as challenging, in their own respects. Thing thats cool about europe is that they got all the cool unsafe lightweight cars. The polo's are freakin insane and i hear theres a super insane one coming to a video near you soon








The laws and cops are much more strict here in the usa, we do not like going to jail and losing our (car/license) for speeding. Based on the # of cops i saw around amsterdam, and on the thalys next to roads (no cops) its totally different ball game.
turbo lag would kill you in central london or paris, heh, those mofo's drive stupid crazy in their TDI's. Lanes? if your car fits, its a lane lol.







i still wanna see that twincharged sheoz when its done on video. dont forget us.


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## G60MAN (May 28, 2002)

yesss.... TDI racing is growing! I´ve got a mate with a 110hp TDI Seat Ibiza, pumped to 180 (Gearbox destroyer), with full roll cage, buckets and slick tires for street use. Insane?? A lot!!! and also another one on a Mk3 Polo, 1.3 on carbs, 110hp, 10k rpms, nimbus grey, ultralight and 14 inch TH lines (of course with full cage...) and don´t forget Renault 5 Turbos, Fiat uno turbos, Seat Ibiza Cupras, a really crazy guy with a Seat Marbella with a 180ho G40 engine on it.......
I´ll keep you posted with the progress of the bodyshell and the engine, and once it´s done, some street action and also on the rollers for the numbers.......


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## BlownG (Feb 28, 2003)

*Re: (G60MAN)*

back on the twincharged setup, whats so hard about controling the boost? Use a bleed vlave on the tb and a electronic boost controler on the turbo, let the charger run throughout the rpm even with the turbo on, limit the bleed valve boost to a certain psi say 26psi. Also limit the turbo boost to a certain safe level when its added with the boost of the charger. Use fmic with one side having 2 intakes for turbo and sc, or you can have 2 seperate ic. The boost from the charger will be pretty linear, the only factor here that will give instantenous boost is turbo, using a small ko3 wont hurt much but will add to overall psi. Will this work? cant see why not


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## wintrode (Aug 2, 2001)

*Re: (BlownG)*

The main idea behind the twin charger setups that we are talking about is to use the instant power that you get from the supercharger down low in the RPM range, and then disengage that charger as the revs rise and the large turbo spools up to provide the power up until redline. The goal being use the supercharger to produce boost up to a point, where it is still efficient, and provides enough pressure to spool up the big honking turbo you got strapped in there, and then whoosh, power past redline.
Leaving the supercharger engaged the whole time is not good. Either the pulley that you have on will be too big (so that the charger doesn't over spin) and thus doesn't produce much boost down low, or it produces good boost down low and starts sapping the efficiency up high in the rpm range, and producing too much heat.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (wintrode)*

bumping this back up...
curious as to people (with actualy knowledge!!) think about running two k03's on a built up 1.9/2L 16v (1.8 bott. w/ 83mm pistons so whatever displacement that equals, rods/pistons forged custom units). 
seeing people say that each turbo putting out 12psi will only result in 12 psi but it will have much more volume. can someone exlpain this a little further? also, the spool debate...will two ko3's spin up slower than one larger turbo (i dont want to know what you THINK, only facts!!). 
the thought is if one ko3 on a 1.8t can make around 200hp fairly reliably, two on a 2L 16v should be able to make over 300. and being that the 1.8t's spool up down near 1800, that two would be around 2500-3000 for full boost (which would be plenty quick as the stock 9a in a 1700lb car has no problems getting off the line). are these assumtions correct? close? 
i dont care about what may work better, or why not to do it cause such and such, or why you THINK something. all im interested is the question i asked above. this is a purpose built car where HP is NOT the overall goal. if it seems to stupid and completly ridiculous, ill proll still do it anyway


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_two ko3's spin up slower than one larger turbo (i dont want to know what you THINK, only facts!!). 


run the numbers for two cylinders feeding one of those turbos...


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

estimating roughly double the rpm, so if it starts spooling at a little before 3k and makes full boost before 3200ish, that outta make for a pretty good time, its not like i have any issues below 3K for power


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