# Engine Data, Oil Temperature



## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Engine Data, Oil Temperature Testing*


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So ... on my 2019 SE, the data system does not report engine oil temperature until it reaches 120*°*F. Originally, when I first scanned through these readouts and came to oil temperature, mine gave me the "---". So I watched it, thinking of a possible defect. But it eventually smiled a 121*°*.

Today I did a small test. Here in the Philadelphia area, it was unseasonably warm, hitting 61 degrees. From a cold, not run for over 12 hours condition, I started up my Beetle and clicked my timer. _How long will it take to read a temperature?_ I drove and waited. No intense burning, up some pretty severe hills, eventually onto a highway. And while merging -- wouldn't you know it? -- the gauge showed a temperature. The time? *8:31* . I found that surprising, especially on a warm day. Over eight minutes for the vehicle's engine to actually "warm up"? Not at all what I would have predicted. And, as we all know, don't crash the turbo until ... 

If we get any more intense winter weather - say 20*°* or so - I hope to do another test.

I haven't read anything about this, but I can't help thinking that the readout is specifically designed by some crafty German engineer to tell us that "_hey, dein Käfer ist nicht optimal._" (which is, being translated, "Yo Adrian! Your Beetle is not yet at its, yo, optimal state."). The vehicle refuses to give you an oil temperature (one clearly exists) until it has reached 120*°*. It's very German. _"Wir finden die Öltemperatur nicht akzeptabel, daher geben wir sie nicht an Sie weiter."_ (We don't find the oil temperature acceptable, so we are not going to give it to you.)

_*Und du wirst es mögen, du Schwein.*_​
What would you have said was a "ready to zoom" oil temperature?


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

{ feel free to add your own timing test(s) to this thread }

{{ 

............... ..................... ........ ........... .......... ........ _Danke, du Hund.
_
... }}

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​{ I didn't write that last bit. }
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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

Funny you say that - my 2012 Turbo has the trio of gauges on the dashboard, with an analog oil temperature gauge, and it too starts at 120 deg. F. 
What appears to be "warmed up" is at about ~160 deg. F or so, cause that's where my gauge goes from a speckled gray background (similar to redline on the tachometer and below 1/8 of a tank on the gas gauge) to actual 10-degree tick marks to track oil temp. I generally view 160 as "warm enough," while "at operating temp" is at 200-220. 

If you were to do a Google Image search, I found the gauge fastest by punching in "2012 beetle turbo boost gauge" since the oil gauge is part of that trio on top. Don't know how to post pics on here yet, otherwise I'd do that and make life easier for everyone. 

Hope this helps!


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> Funny you say that - my 2012 Turbo has the trio of gauges on the dashboard, with an analog oil temperature gauge, and it too starts at 120 deg. F.
> What appears to be "warmed up" is at about ~160 deg. F or so, cause that's where my gauge goes from a speckled gray background (similar to redline on the tachometer and below 1/8 of a tank on the gas gauge) to actual 10-degree tick marks to track oil temp. I generally view 160 as "warm enough," while "at operating temp" is at 200-220.
> 
> If you were to do a Google Image search, I found the gauge fastest by punching in "2012 beetle turbo boost gauge" since the oil gauge is part of that trio on top. Don't know how to post pics on here yet, otherwise I'd do that and make life easier for everyone.
> ...




From what I've read, the US Beetle did not come equiped with the trio gauge pod, nor have datalines provided for it. Is that true? What is your market? Was your pod stock? If not, can you give us all a paragraph about how your gauge pod was installed?

Also, how 'bout a timing test with your gauges?
Do you hold off on wildly spinning your turbo until your temperature gauge gives you the ok? What temperature do you usually wait for?​.

Thanks for responding.​


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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

My bug is a US market 2012 Beetle Turbo, which did come from the factory with the extra gauge cluster/pod atop the dashboard. This little gauge cluster sits where the cubby normally is on top of the dashboard, directly above the radio/head unit. In this cluster, are three gauges: an oil temperature gauge, a lap timer, and a boost gauge (this reads in absolute pressure). 

In 2012, the only way to get the gauge cluster was to have a Beetle Turbo (later called the Beetle R Line in 2014). All Turbos/R Lines had this gauge cluster atop the dash factory, with the notable exceptions being the early model Turbos and the Launch Edition Turbos. In 2013, the gauge cluster was also added to the Beetle TDI. In 2014, the Beetle GSR also got this little cluster on the dashboard (it came stock with the 2.0T EA888 Gen 3). I believe in 2016 or '17, with the death of the Beetle R Line, the gauge pod disappeared from the beetle. 

The beetles that did not get this gauge pod include the 2012-13 Beetle 2.5L, the 2014-2016 Beetle 1.8T (i.e. the Coast, the Classic, the Dune, the Demin edition), and the 2017-2019 Beetle with the 170hp 2.0T. 

This list is to the best of my knowledge, so there might be a few models/trims that did/didn't get the gauge pod that I did not mention here. 

To answer your warm-up time, today it was about 40 when I started up my car (sitting cold for 12 hours), and my oil temp reached 120 in about 2 minutes, and got to 170 in approximately 5 or 6 minutes. I did not use a stopwatch (or the lap timer), but I can do that tomorrow. Generally, I'm not spooling the turbo too much when it is cold, I tend to wait till the oil is 170 deg. F, but once it shows some temperature on the oil gauge (anything over 120), I feel more comfortable getting the 2.0T to stretch her legs some... 

Here's an article I found about the Beetle GSR, and one of the pics shows the factory gauge cluster I'm referring to. (Still have no idea how to post pictures here)
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15112140/2014-volkswagen-beetle-gsr-test-review/


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

My wife's 2012 launch edition came with the gauge pack.

The boost gauge doesn't reflect anything accurate. Maybe "absolute" units of "requested boost" but I think even that is optimistic. 

The oil temp gauges scale starts at 120F. Same thing for as far back as my 1992 corrado. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> My bug is a US market 2012 Beetle Turbo, which did come from the factory with the extra gauge cluster/pod atop the dashboard. This little gauge cluster sits where the cubby normally is on top of the dashboard, directly above the radio/head unit. In this cluster, are three gauges: an oil temperature gauge, a lap timer, and a boost gauge (this reads in absolute pressure).
> 
> In 2012, the only way to get the gauge cluster was to have a Beetle Turbo (later called the Beetle R Line in 2014). All Turbos/R Lines had this gauge cluster atop the dash factory, with the notable exceptions being the early model Turbos and the Launch Edition Turbos. In 2013, the gauge cluster was also added to the Beetle TDI. In 2014, the Beetle GSR also got this little cluster on the dashboard (it came stock with the 2.0T EA888 Gen 3). I believe in 2016 or '17, with the death of the Beetle R Line, the gauge pod disappeared from the beetle.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information.
Unless you have 10 billion posts, you can't post pictures. I guess its a German thing.

Have read the post nearest this in time? The owner refers to his wife's Beetle and evaluates the boost pressure gauge as providing little accurate data? Is his gauge perhaps faulty, or ...

Thanks again.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

NewBeatle said:


> Thanks for the information.
> Unless you have 10 billion posts, you can't post pictures. I guess its a German thing.
> 
> Have read the post nearest this in time? The owner refers to his wife's Beetle and evaluates the boost pressure gauge as providing little accurate data? Is his gauge perhaps faulty, or ...
> ...


Fairly certain this forum is US based, so...

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #2:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 58° F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456---- *7:37* -123-- (123° F)
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456------- *11:19* -123- (161° F)
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456------------- *15:03* -123- (200° F)
​
Vehicle hovered around 203° for the next 15 minutes, all highway driving.
_Cold Start_ route was partly different: same hills at beginning, but prior to highway on ramp, more lights and standing idling.
​
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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

GTIVRon said:


> Fairly certain this forum is US based, so...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


But it's a German designed car, from a German company with a long and war-ing history, hence German humor is appropriate, so ...


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

The gauges are not accurate representation. Get an actual data logger if you're really wanting to see what's happening. See if PolarFIS is available/compatible with the beetle. Best of my knowledge if you've got steering wheel controls it should be..

Get a car from a non-waring country like a Chevy aveo.. oh wait.. a Prius.. oh wait.. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

The boost gauge does work, but it reads in what's known as absolute pressures. In other words, 15 psi is atmospheric pressure (i.e. no vacuum, no boost.). Anything over that is boost. So 20 psi is 5 lb of boost, 25 is 10 lb of boost, etc.


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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

Today was 40 degrees when I started my bug (car sat overnight, roughly 12 hours). Time from start to 120 degrees: 1 minute, 12 seconds. 
Time from start to 170 degrees: 3 minutes, 35 seconds. 
Time from start to 200 degrees: 9 minutes. 

My route was city driving (up to 30 mph) for the first 6 minutes or so. Highway driving afterwards (where I did use boost)


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> The boost gauge does work, but it reads in what's known as absolute pressures. In other words, 15 psi is atmospheric pressure (i.e. no vacuum, no boost.). Anything over that is boost. So 20 psi is 5 lb of boost, 25 is 10 lb of boost, etc.


Good info, thanks.

What's the highest boost you've ever seen?
What's the typical boost when you're reving on a clear on ramp, the tach steady at 3,100 rpms, car walking through the transmission?


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> Today was 40 degrees when I started my bug (car sat overnight, roughly 12 hours). Time from start to 120 degrees: 1 minute, 12 seconds.
> Time from start to 170 degrees: 3 minutes, 35 seconds.
> Time from start to 200 degrees: 9 minutes.
> 
> My route was city driving (up to 30 mph) for the first 6 minutes or so. Highway driving afterwards (where I did use boost)



Interesting variance with my figures.
I wonder why mine is taking so long to reach *120°*? Or warmup in general? 
- (_Newer engine {2,000 miles}, less friction?_)
-- (_ or could it be the engine itself {since the camming and intake on my 2019 is significantly different than yours} ?_ )​
In your view, should the coolant (water) temperature and oil temperature level off at (or near) the same value?

Thanks for the test and reporting.​


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #3:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 42° F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456---- *8:02* -123-- (121° F)
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456------- *11:17* -123- (161° F)
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456------------- *18:12* -123- (200° F)
​
Vehicle almost never got to 200° - the drive was 19 minutes long.
_Cold Start_ route was route #1: same hills at beginning, but prior to highway on ramp, less lights, more driving.
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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

Data from my 2017 GTI from this morning for comparison purposes. I drive fairly gently, but don't totally avoid boost, until the oil temp starts getting to the 120+ range. 

*1*
Outdoor Temp: 28 F
Morning startup: Cold start to engine oil temp of 122 degrees took 11 minutes with avg speed 25 mph according to the car. 3 minutes spent idling a half mile from home in a school parking lot while dropping off my daughter. RPMs not over 2500, speeds under 45 mph with a few stoplights. Didn't bother to see how long it took to get to different temps after that. Did get up to 200+ degrees during my 45 minute drive to work.

*2*
Outdoor Temp: 28 F
Leaving work startup (car sat for 8 hours) : Cold start to engine oil temp of 124 degrees took 12 minutes with avg speed of 16 mph. First group of minutes spent crawling between stoplights. Last few minutes got up to around 45mph. Again, didn't record how long it took to hit higher temps afterwards. Got up to 206 degrees during my 55 minute drive, though.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Data from my 2017 GTI from this morning for comparison purposes. I drive fairly gently, but don't totally avoid boost, until the oil temp starts getting to the 120+ range.
> 
> *1*
> Outdoor Temp: 28 F
> ...



Thanks for the information.
So it seems reasonable that the Budack engine modification is not the primary determinant of the significant differences found in *ThatBlueBeetle*'s 2012 Turbo's warmup times.

I continue to be a bit stunned at how long these 120*°* times are (as well as the others). 10 minutes and the car is not warmed up for the turbo. I never would have predicted that.

Thanks again.
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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #4:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 43° F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456---- *8:21* -123-- (122° F)
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456------- *11:50* -123- (160° F)
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456--------------- *_∞_* -123- (200° F)
​
Vehicle never got to 200° - the drive was 20:17 minutes long.
_Cold Start_ route was route #1 (tests #1, 3 & 4).

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{1)_ For clarity, the times above are cumulative. It did not take 11:50 _after _the gauge alive moment to reach 160*°* (thus making the time to get to 160*°* 20:11 total). I'm not sure why I labelled things this way, but I wanted to address that possible interpretation. _
2) As the temperature approached 200, the Oil temperature began to shadow and agree with the Water Temperature.​ }
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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

It certainly baffles me. I'm wondering if maybe it's because I have an analog gauge vs the digital readouts? I know that my digital coolant temp readout is a bit of a dummy light - I found that out when my bug heat-soaked over the summer in stop-and-go traffic - coolant temp was up to 208, but the display still said 195. The oil temp at the time was at 225 or so. 

I'll let my bug sit for the weekend, and I'll run the test again come Monday when I know she's cold.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> It certainly baffles me. I'm wondering if maybe it's because I have an analog gauge vs the digital readouts? I know that my digital coolant temp readout is a bit of a dummy light - I found that out when my bug heat-soaked over the summer in stop-and-go traffic - coolant temp was up to 208, but the display still said 195. The oil temp at the time was at 225 or so.
> 
> I'll let my bug sit for the weekend, and I'll run the test again come Monday when I know she's cold.



Or, as I found out with my '99 Ford truckie, the sensor might be bad and the gauge is fine.
Or, all might be well. I've said this many times in this thread and I'll say it again:

The engine seems to want to operate at 200*°*, which would mean that's the set point of all the metalurgy. It seems bizarre to me, and not good for the engine, that it takes over 18 minutes of driving to get to optimum engine temperature. Even if 120*°* is tolerable for _turbo stomping_, that takes around 8 minutes - 8 minutes! I never would have waited that long before. I'm still waiting for a good cold Pennsylvania day - say 15*°* - to do a timing test then.
​
All and all, a very interesting test I stumbled on.
I wish more would post here. I'm still waiting for another 2019, with the Budack engine, which should effect the temperature curve.
I'm sure you'd like to see another 2012 owner (or 13, or 14) cruise through here with some data as well.
(_I tried to add the word "tests" to the title, but the board won't let you change titles._)

Perhaps soon.



Thanks for posting.

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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

All very good points and all very possible. 

What you said did get me thinking, and I might have an explanation for the temp time variance. (Big emphasis on "might").

After 4 years of ownership, I've noticed that whenever the temp is below 39 degrees and I get that "cold weather warning" on the dash, cold-start idle is 1000 rpm. Any temperature above that, however, and cold-start idle is 1200-1300 rpm, which is held until the engine coolant display reads 90-100 degrees. After that point, idle drops to 750-800 rpm. 

I'm wondering if that time of high-idle cold start (1200-1300 rpm) is what's bringing my temps up faster. As I mentioned in my test, it was 43 degrees out when I started my car. 

Now, I have absolutely no idea if the Budack engines do this same "different idle speeds depending on outside temperature" or not, but maybe that's part of the reason why our times are very different. If they do, I don't know what temp is the "low cold-start idle" and the "high cold-start idle" threshold for the Budack engines (I saw you did a test at 42 degrees as well and it still took 8 minutes before you got to 120, hence why I say maybe the threshold temp for the different idle speeds is not 39 degrees). 

When we get a real cold day here in NY, I'll check into that as well - as of late, it's been 40+ every time I start my bug. 

If I'm wrong (which is likely the case), then maybe we are comparing apples to oranges here with a Gen 1 EA888 tsi and a Budack engine, as you've mentioned before.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Been waiting for this, but as traffic here is slower than I expected when I first bought my Beetle and came to this site, I'll directly address it:

Seems to me someone should swoop in onto this thread and give a _pithy_ (where's that from?) discussion of multi-grade oils, their composition, and where each grade "likes" to operate in. Part of the "_sweet spot_" of an engine's ideal temperature range is determined by the oil that is running through it (_which, for my 2019 Beetle, is 0W20 synthetic_). So, any and all oil experts, chirp away. Feel free to top your post with something like "Oil Discussion", so we know this is a small, but meaningful, detour.

​
And we thank you, for your support.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #5:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 41*°* F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456---- *8:16* -123-- (122° F)
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456------- *10:49* -123- (160° F)
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456--------------- *_∞_* -123- (200° F)
​
Vehicle never got to 200° - the drive was 21:43 minutes long.
_Cold Start_ route was route #1 (tests #1, 3 & 4).
Around 9:00 I entered the highway, and not being able to help myself (I like my car), I zoomed around a bit.

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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> All very good points and all very possible.
> 
> What you said did get me thinking, and I might have an explanation for the temp time variance. (Big emphasis on "might").
> 
> ...




My cold start idle sits around 750 rpms. I can't recall driving my baby in very cold weather yet (I own a Jeep also). So I'll watch the idling behavior. But I've never seen it run to 1250, or recall seeing that. Friction and heat can in someway be tied directly to engine rpms, so perhaps you are on to something.

My engine is essentially the same as yours from the cam shaft down (lower block). Reports indicate my above block engine has more plastic parts than yours. But the main *Budack* difference is new and uniquely shaped cams on the variable camshaft to enable the shortening of the intake cycle at lower rpms - i.e., the input valves close faster on my car than yours. I haven't been able to find at what rpm level my intake cycle is like yours. Also, I've heard the length of the valve stems are shorter on mine, but I haven't verified that from a second source. Again, in theory, if mine is burning less gas than yours at lower revs, and we are keeping it at lower revs, then less gas means less *boom!* and consequently less heat. But **Dan00Hawk** does NOT have a *Budack* in his Golf, and his "alive at 120*°*" times are close to mine, so keep that in mind (he DOES have a _Budack_ in his wife's 2019 Beetle, but that vehicle is outside the test run universe). {_I hope he is embarrassed that he is putting the health of his marriage ahead of our collection of test data._} So, even though our engines are different, I find it dubious that the input cycle would create an over 300% longer warmup time. But perhaps Professor Budack would sneer at me and say "*Wenn Sie ein Dummkopf sind, geben Sie Ihren Käfer sofort an Ihren Händler zurück, du schwein!!!*"

Germans can be quite territorial.
​
Thanks for posting.
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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

Cold start, sat for 2 days, outside temp 41 degrees.

Time to gauge alive (120) - 2 minutes

Time to 160 - 4 minutes, 30 seconds

Time to 210 - 11 minutes, 45 seconds.

First 7 minutes were pure city driving, no more than 25 mph, couple of red lights. After that was a highway onramp and then highway cruising, where the temp finally hit 210.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #6:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 28*°* F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456----- *9:32* -123-. (122° F)
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456------- *11:50* -123-- (160° F)
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456------------- *20:20* -123-- (201° F)
​
Vehicle got to 200°, then dropped and hovered around 195° - never returned after 27:18 minutes.
( _Almost seemed like he knew what we were doing._ )
_Cold Start_ route was route #3 - fewer lights, more highway.


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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

I'll likely be able to add some cold start data for our 2019 this next weekend when the wife sleeps in, and I can make a run for donuts and getting it washed for her. This makes me appear to be the "good husband" while also contributing to the car club. With age, comes wisdom...


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> Cold start, sat for 2 days, outside temp 41 degrees.
> 
> Time to gauge alive (120) - 2 minutes
> 
> ...




Good intervals.
I greatly wish someone with a 2012 would come on here and provide some data. The difference in warm up time is amazing.
( _Perhaps you could create a post titled "Calling all 2012 Beetle owners", and then simply refer them here._ )
(( Where ARE all the damn Beetle owners, for that matter? ))

When was the last time you flushed your radiator?
What type and grade of engine oil are you using?

Or maybe my car is the odd one. My other cars don't have oil temperature readouts. But I know they come up to heat - the water temp needle - moves after no more than a minute, and the oil can't be too far behind. My 7-8 minutes seems an outlier. But then there is *Dan00*'s Golf ... I still can't make sense out of it.

But I suppose we should just be happy we cruise down the road with no problems ...
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But ... I'm really looking forward to a super cold winter day.

Thanks for the data.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> I'll likely be able to add some cold start data for our 2019 this next weekend when the wife sleeps in, and I can make a run for donuts and getting it washed for her. This makes me appear to be the "good husband" while also contributing to the car club. With age, comes wisdom...




Don't forget the coffee.

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​We'll be looking for your report.
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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

Haha, yes coffee!

Also, our VWs are outside cars. Other projects consume the garage... If someone is parked in the garage overnight, a 28 degree day really is more like a 45-55 degree day for example (assuming the garage is warmer). That would have a big impact in the warm-up times to getting to proper operating temperature.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Haha, yes coffee!
> 
> Also, our VWs are outside cars. Other projects consume the garage... If someone is parked in the garage overnight, a 28 degree day really is more like a 45-55 degree day for example (assuming the garage is warmer). That would have a big impact in the warm-up times to getting to proper operating temperature.



.

Wow, good point about the garage -- see the importance of *coffee*?

.



My Beetle is only garage kept, so my longer times are even longer. How long do you think a 50° garage kept Beetle needs to be rolled out in a 15° night before the block is near 15°? An hour? Two?

(I wonder if **BlueBeetle** keeps his garaged ... )​
.

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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

I wish I kept her garaged, but no, she stays out overnight...

I have absolutely no clue where all the other beetle owners are... it's like this place became a bit of a ghost town. I know Dr. Techy has a '12 turbo, but that thing is so far from stock, I doubt we would have similar warm up times. 

I'm running 5qt 5W40 full synthetic oil (Castrol Edge, to be specific). The oil is changed yearly cause I never get close to the 10k miles suggested by VW for an oil interval. Usually, I put 3 to 5 thousand miles on her, do oil and an oil filter once a year. 
The antifreeze is the VW specific stuff (don't know the tech specs off the top of my head.) I have not had it flushed in my time as owner (though, I probably should), and I do not know if previous owners have or have not flushed the cooling system as well. That'll be a summer job when I do the oil...


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

.
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Monitoring oil temperature is important ...
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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

Outside temp: 37 degrees
Time from start till 120: 1 min, 50 seconds 
Time from start to 170 degrees: 4 minutes, 30 seconds.
Never got to 210 like she normally does, but she got to 200 at about 10-12 min or so.

All city driving, up to 35 mph, no real use of boost, never revved her to 3k today. 


And, most importantly, no fireball either lol.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> I wish I kept her garaged, but no, she stays out overnight...
> 
> I have absolutely no clue where all the other beetle owners are... it's like this place became a bit of a ghost town. I know Dr. Techy has a '12 turbo, but that thing is so far from stock, I doubt we would have similar warm up times.
> 
> ...


I can do some logging but I can tell you right now, having owned a couple of gen3 mk7 cars now, the gen3 tsi takes a LOT longer to warm up oil than the gen1 tsi. So if you're running a gen3 you can't compare to the gen1. The reason is the way that they made getting the coolant up to temp with the head design of the gen3 a priority over the oil. Water temp will climb much faster so that heat starts to work more quickly, the trade off is that oil takes longer now to come up to temp. My gen3 can take anywhere from 10-20 minutes of driving to get oil up to temp. My gen1 on the beetle, it can sit for 5 minutes idling and oil will almost be up to temp.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

drtechy said:


> I can do some logging but I can tell you right now, having owned a couple of gen3 mk7 cars now, the gen3 tsi takes a LOT longer to warm up oil than the gen1 tsi. So if you're running a gen3 you can't compare to the gen1. The reason is the way that they made getting the coolant up to temp with the head design of the gen3 a priority over the oil. Water temp will climb much faster so that heat starts to work more quickly, the trade off is that oil takes longer now to come up to temp. My gen3 can take anywhere from 10-20 minutes of driving to get oil up to temp. My gen1 on the beetle, it can sit for 5 minutes idling and oil will almost be up to temp.




I sure would like the source for your overview so that I can read up on the details.
Thanks for dropping in, we'll look forward to your test run(s).
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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> Outside temp: 37 degrees
> Time from start till 120: 1 min, 50 seconds
> Time from start to 170 degrees: 4 minutes, 30 seconds.
> Never got to 210 like she normally does, but she got to 200 at about 10-12 min or so.
> ...



So, though colder, the time to 120 actually was slightly shorter. I love when things stay so simple.
We have another 2012 coming online soon (Dr.) -- but if you look at his thread, it looks like his platform is barely a Beetle anymore. But the data should be interesting.

Friday night here is supposed to be cold -- down to 12*°* -- and I've already moved my Beetle into a non-insulated steel garage. So, maybe in the very cold weather, mine will warm up in under 5 minutes!​
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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Data from my 2017 GTI from this morning for comparison purposes. I drive fairly gently, but don't totally avoid boost, until the oil temp starts getting to the 120+ range.
> 
> *1*
> 
> ...


Leaving work today (2017 GTI) :
Outdoor Temp: 11 F
Cold start to oil temp of 125 degrees took 10 minutes with an avg speed of 36 mph. Running a few more rpm while driving at higher speeds made a big difference, as this was a shorter time to 120ish despite colder temperatures.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a car taking longer than another to warm up. The fact that we recognize to drive it gently until it's warmed up a bit should help the longevity of the motor and transmission.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #7:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 16*°* F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456---- *13:29* -123-. (120° F) -123-. { Avg S=21.4 mph }
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456-------- *17:23* -123-- (161° F) -123-. { Avg S=26.1 mph }
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456---------------- *∞* -12345-- (194° F)
​
Overnight temperature in non-insulated steel garage: 11*°* F
Vehicle never got to 200°, trip duration = 33:23 { Avg S=36.3 mph }
Different route from storage location, trapped behind some mommy Escalade going 5 below speedlimit - BabyOnBoard!



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{ So ... on a cold day, I shouldn't spin my turbo until about 15 minutes of warmup? _Really? _ }​
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​
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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

Snagged the wife's convertible this morning to get it washed, and to get some data for y'all. 
*
2019 Beetle*
Outdoor temp *27 F *(Coolant temp reading 30 degrees after sitting outside all night).
Cold start to 122 degrees: *8'30"*. Avg speed around 30 mph driving conservatively with about 5 stop signs spread out.


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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

NewBeatle said:


> .
> So ... on a cold day, I shouldn't spin my turbo until about 15 minutes of warmup? _Really? _


Our oil at 5w-40 (or 0w-40) and being synthetic flows pretty good when cold. It IS lubricating the engine components after all. It stands to reason it does a fine job for the turbo as well.
I generally drive gently for about the first 5 minutes, even allowing positive boost pressure during acceleration. It's kind of hard to avoid getting into boost with these small turbos, actually, unless you try to pace a loaded garbage truck in a slow drag race. I've had no issues with romping on the car once the coolant gauge is getting close to normal (on cars that still have coolant gauges). 

Checking the oil temp is rather new to me, since these VWs are the first turbo cars for me that have had that gauge (other boosted/supercharged cars I've owned: 2002 WRX, 2004 Mini Cooper S, 2007 GTI, 2007 Legacy GT Wagon, 2014 Jetta 1.8t, 2014 Beetle 1.8t, 2017 Beetle 1.8t, 2017 GTI). 

This turbo company recommends driving gently for just the first 5 minutes in winter: https://www.aet-turbos.co.uk/cold-weather-care-winter-turbo-maintenance-tips/
Most other google searches on the topic seems to suggest something similar. Just my take, but I feel that you could drive a bit more aggressively after 5 minutes of gentle driving and have peace of mind that you aren't causing any excess wear to any components of the entire powertrain. 

But there isn't anything wrong with waiting 8-15 minutes for the oil temp to get up into the 160+ range and feeling more mechanically-sympathetic to your machine.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Leaving work today (2017 GTI) :
> Outdoor Temp: 11 F
> Cold start to oil temp of 125 degrees took 10 minutes with an avg speed of 36 mph. Running a few more rpm while driving at higher speeds made a big difference, as this was a shorter time to 120ish despite colder temperatures.
> 
> I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a car taking longer than another to warm up. The fact that we recognize to drive it gently until it's warmed up a bit should help the longevity of the motor and transmission.




I'm seeing that driving style has a ~+/- 20% warmup impact; which, I must say, again surprises me that driver behavior has such a significant effect in a "_civilian_" (non-track, non-F1) environment. I suppose the lesson here is that taking care of a car or truck allows you to have a really good vehicle even after 20 years. { _Does the same principle apply to the human body?_ } I know there are many people who simply don't believe this ... or don't care ...


.
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_*... or simply don't know, and dress up as if all is well.*
_​
Thanks for the data run.
​


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Snagged the wife's convertible this morning to get it washed, and to get some data for y'all.
> *
> 2019 Beetle*
> Outdoor temp *27 F *(Coolant temp reading 30 degrees after sitting outside all night).
> Cold start to 122 degrees: *8'30"*. Avg speed around 30 mph driving conservatively with about 5 stop signs spread out.




Factoring in your apparent driving style ...
.
.









.

... it seems reasonable to conclude (though, granted only 2 data points) that the Budack (3B - 2019) engine does take considerably longer to warm up than earlier variants. If earlier posts are accurate, it's unclear to me why one would design an engine so that the oil warms up last. Or does this mean that over the span of any one drive, the coolant is the first to get exposed to heat and then the oil? (_And so, this safeguards the oil, which is what's important?_)

And so ... a spoonful of patience at startup will have more impact than not boosting your Beetle from 20 to 85 all the time entering the onramp? { _Not that I really like doing that._ }

Thanks for the data run.
How was the coffee?
​


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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

Coffee and car wash run was splendid!  

Let's consider this: Friction (among other things) generates heat, right? So if our cold oil (0w or 5w) is circulating and flowing well, the longer it takes to heat up would suggest that less wear and friction is occurring. I don't see that as a bad thing.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Our oil at 5w-40 (or 0w-40) and being synthetic flows pretty good when cold. It IS lubricating the engine components after all. It stands to reason it does a fine job for the turbo as well.
> I generally drive gently for about the first 5 minutes, even allowing positive boost pressure during acceleration. It's kind of hard to avoid getting into boost with these small turbos, actually, unless you try to pace a loaded garbage truck in a slow drag race. I've had no issues with romping on the car once the coolant gauge is getting close to normal (on cars that still have coolant gauges).
> 
> Checking the oil temp is rather new to me, since these VWs are the first turbo cars for me that have had that gauge (other boosted/supercharged cars I've owned: 2002 WRX, 2004 Mini Cooper S, 2007 GTI, 2007 Legacy GT Wagon, 2014 Jetta 1.8t, 2014 Beetle 1.8t, 2017 Beetle 1.8t, 2017 GTI).
> ...



Did you know ...

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​

... primo turbo activity ...
​
.

... that another piece of out of date technology - the glorious and beautiful Titan II ICBM - could launch from a Cold Start in under 60 seconds? And most of that time was spent dragging the 20-ton protective concrete cap off the silo.

So ... 5 minutes of patience is prudent, and anything more is the courtesy due a long-term relationship.
Thanks, and for the turbo data points.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

Dan00Hawk said:


> Coffee and car wash run was splendid!
> 
> Let's consider this: Friction (among other things) generates heat, right? So if our cold oil (0w or 5w) is circulating and flowing well, the longer it takes to heat up would suggest that less wear and friction is occurring. I don't see that as a bad thing.




Very wise council - must be the *coffee*.









​I just learned that in its nominal, low-load, low-rpm mode, the Budack 3B engine's intake stroke provides more *cooling* than previous engines. So, for the conscientious; the slow warm, low stress 1st ten minutes has a synergistic effect.​
Thanks for the feedback.

​


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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

Outdoor temperature: 22 deg. F
Time from start to gauge alive (120 deg. F): 3 minutes, 15 seconds.
Time from start to 170: 6 minutes
Time from start to roughly 195: 12 minutes, 15 seconds. (Emphasis on roughly)
Time from start to 210 (normal temp): 21 minutes. 

First 7 minutes were a continuous cruise, essentially, at 30-35 mph, all in 4th gear (1500-1700 rpm or so), then merge onto a highway for about 3 to 4 minutes, (speeds from 40-60, 4th through 6th gears) then a mix of city 25 mph driving, highway driving, and then more city. The oil didn't get to 210 until I was driving a bit spirited on a highway on ramp (read: shifting at 4k, using boost, downshifting more frequently to keep the rpms at 3k in the corners...)

On a different topic, NewBeatle, how did you start posting pics? What's the trick?

Thank you in advance!


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## lacr2000 (May 13, 2009)

Here's my submission with a '19 SEL Cabby. 

Ambient temp: 37 degrees
Time to minimum temp displayed: 9 minutes 25 seconds @ 122 degrees
Highest temp achieved / Distance traveled: 147 degrees @ 12 minutes / 4 miles
Highest speed achieved: 1 mile @ 40 mph
Average speed: 3 miles @ 25 mph


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> Outdoor temperature: 22 deg. F
> Time from start to gauge alive (120 deg. F): 3 minutes, 15 seconds.
> Time from start to 170: 6 minutes
> Time from start to roughly 195: 12 minutes, 15 seconds. (Emphasis on roughly)
> ...



So, more than 50% longer to move the needle ... were you driving more "gently" prior to the 120 appearance?
Is any of this going to change your driving habits?​


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

lacr2000 said:


> Here's my submission with a '19 SEL Cabby.
> 
> Ambient temp: 37 degrees
> Time to minimum temp displayed: 9 minutes 25 seconds @ 122 degrees
> ...




Can you clarify your data?
Are you saying the total length of your trip was 4 miles? Perhaps a gentle cruise down Wesley Avenue, looking at the ocean, looking at the babes?











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Total trip: 4 miles, 12 minutes long?

Thank you for the Road Test and publishing your results. The warm up time for the Budack is an important data point.
( _Were you surprised by it?_ )
​


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## ThatBlueBeetle (May 13, 2018)

NewBeatle said:


> So, more than 50% longer to move the needle ... were you driving more "gently" prior to the 120 appearance?
> Is any of this going to change your driving habits?​


I'm not sure I was being significantly more gentle, but that certainly is possible - been having a small issue lately, so I've been trying to go easy on her. 
This was the first time in a while the temp was below 30 (the wind chill made it feel like the teens). Also, unlike my normal commute, I didn't get stopped at a single red light - I was in motion for approximately the first 10 to 12 minutes of driving. Maybe one of those impacted the warm up time? 

The issue I'm having right now is a boost fluctuation while at constant throttle. For example, floored in 3rd, 4th, or 5th gear, the car builds/drops approximately 5 psi of boost, as if there is something that can't handle 10 psi, but can re-seal at 5 psi. The current suspected culprit is a faulty diverter valve - I have a new one (the revised version) that I'll install this weekend. Also going to do some 'preventative maintenance' and swap out my air and fuel filters, just to be on the safe side. (The bug is 8 years old, and I have no clue what the first two owners did or didn't do in the first 4 years of this car's life... the air filter is about a year old now.)

To answer your second question, I'm not sure if this data is going to change my habits; I try to take it easy on my car prior to coming up to temp currently. In general, I'm avoiding boost until I see the oil temp show 170 deg. F (most times, that's due to traffic, and I get to 170 before I have the space to use boost). When it is super cold, sometimes I'll start the car and let it warm up while I put my stuff in the trunk, turn on my heated seat, pick a radio station, etc., and then wait a beat or two before putting her in gear.


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## lacr2000 (May 13, 2009)

NewBeatle said:


> Can you clarify your data?
> Are you saying the total length of your trip was 4 miles? Perhaps a gentle cruise down Wesley Avenue, looking at the ocean, looking at the babes?
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, the total distance traveled on that leg of the trip was only four miles. The car was then parked for about forty five minutes before I started the second leg of the trip. I noticed, but didn't note, that the oil temp was 132 when I started the car back up. Didn't continue with the experiment since this leg involved short distance driving with multiple stops.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

ThatBlueBeetle said:


> {deleted stuff}
> When it is super cold, sometimes I'll start the car and let it warm up while I put my stuff in the trunk, *turn on my heated seat*, pick a radio station, etc., and then wait a beat or two before putting her in gear.



This is my first car with a heated seat, after years and years and years of scoffing. I am ashamed to admit ... { _I like it_ }.
Waiting for the heated seat to heat, a new standard of winter car and driver care.
​
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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

lacr2000 said:


> Yes, the total distance traveled on that leg of the trip was only four miles. The car was then parked for about forty five minutes before I started the second leg of the trip. I noticed, but didn't note, that the oil temp was 132 when I started the car back up. Didn't continue with the experiment since this leg involved short distance driving with multiple stops.



Thanks for the clarification.
Were you surprised at the time to *120°* ?​


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## lacr2000 (May 13, 2009)

NewBeatle said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> Were you surprised at the time to *120°* ?​


Anytime. 
Having read your, and the other entries, I was kind of expecting it. The other thing, too, is that I wasn't driving her aggressively. Possibly, had I done so, it might've reached temperature a tad sooner. I have an '18 Explorer that is my daily. From a cold start, in the winter, it usually takes about five miles to warm up and start producing heat. I haven't necessarily checked to see if there's a hidden oil temp display, somewhere, so it's far from a scientific experiment. Plus, I tend to drive her a lot more aggressively than the Beetle with less than 1k on the odometer.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

lacr2000 said:


> { deleted stuff ... }
> 
> ... (my) Beetle with less than 1k on the odometer.



My goal, as well, has been to keep the mileage down on my baby, but after 3 months I looked up when I turned her off and ... *2,400* miles! Yikes. I do like the car, and enjoy driving her; more so than my previous little black zoom machine. She's currently in a 2 week quarantine, to keep the mileage down. But I miss her.

It's going to be great fun when *APR* finally gets their act together (_the Budack engine has been out since October of 2017!_) and delivers a tune. A fun, classic car.

Thanks for responding.​


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## lacr2000 (May 13, 2009)

A fun, classic car.

Thanks for responding.
[/INDENT][/INDENT][/QUOTE]

Absolutely, it is! I enjoy getting behind the wheel, cranking the tunes, and just enjoying the driving sensations and its peppiness. Dropped the top last Wednesday when the ambient temperature hit sixty degrees. That was exhilarating, to say the least. Can't wait for the warmer weather. 
Am also debating as to whether forgoing the engine warranty and getting a Stage 2 tune, or the Stage 1+ that has its own limited warranty. 
Decisions, decisions.


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

lacr2000 said:


> Absolutely, it is! I enjoy getting behind the wheel, cranking the tunes, and just enjoying the driving sensations and its peppiness. Dropped the top last Wednesday when the ambient temperature hit sixty degrees. That was exhilarating, to say the least. Can't wait for the warmer weather.
> Am also debating as to whether forgoing the engine warranty and getting a Stage 2 tune, or the Stage 1+ that has its own limited warranty.
> Decisions, decisions.



Perhaps you've heard of the *Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act*. If not, that law limits car manufacturers from walking away from their warranties simply because the owner has upgraded their air filters (or made other after market improvements). Upon review, you might find even the _Stage 7 Mars Orbital Tune_ involves less risk than originally thought.
​
.














Adjust launch plans accordingly.
​


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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

*Road Test #8:*



Ambient Temperature:-123-0000000000000000000000000- 56*°* F

_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-123456---- *11:08* -123-. (122° F) -123-. { Avg S=27.8 mph }
_Gauge Alive --> ~160°_-123456-------- *16:31* -123-- (161° F) -123-. { Avg S=31.1 mph }
_~160° --> ~200°_-123456-------------- *22:19* -1234- (203° F)
​
Overnight temperature in non-insulated steel garage: 43*°* F
Typical route from storage location, no obstructions, passing a voting place only slow down.
Surprising that the _gauge alive_ time went over 10 minutes (even 11) on such a moderate Autumn day.



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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

.
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Eleven minutes ... kinda makes one think ...

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## NewBeatle (Dec 5, 2019)

x
*Road Test #9 (a & b):*


#9a:Ambient Temperature:-123-000000000- 51*°* F​Engine: xxxxxXXXxxxxxxXGen 3B{_izzaro_} (2.0T)​​_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-14*11:17*3X- (122° F)​-1XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX23- { Avg S=28.7 mph }​​
​#9b:Ambient Temperature:-123-XX00000000- 43*°* F​Engine: xxxxxxxxxxxxZZZxxxxxxxxxxGen 3 (*1.8T*)​​_Cold Start --> Gauge alive_-12  *5:08* -1. (122° F)​XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-123- { Avg S=27.3 mph }​​
​​Same route from storage location.​​​​.​.​


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