# Bentley/RoW Phaeton Brake Upgrade



## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

Hi All, 

Trying to find info on a potential brake upgrade for the front brakes on our Phaetons. I have an NA 2004 V8 that I'd like to delimit and upgrade the brakes on, just to give my car more potential. Has anyone found that you can _actually_ put bentley brakes on our cars, or is that all speculation? If that's out, does anyone have the part number for RoW calipers, pads, and rotors? If anyone has done research here that'd be awesome, otherwise I'll probably be doing it myself. 

Also if anyone has knowledge about delimiting our cars with a vag-com that'd be cool too, though unitronic says that they'll do it with a tune which I am also planning to do. Anyone have any experience ecu tuning phaetons? How does that usually go? 

Also to clarify, I'm not going to hotrod my phaeton, or ruin it with mods, I'm just planning to do very limited modifications to make it better, like a new ECU program and maybe nicer front brakes. That's about it.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Zoltan: 

You might discover that if you want to install the very large front brake calipers that are fitted to the Rest of World (ROW) W12 and V10 powered Phaetons, or to the Bentleys, you will have to replace the master cylinder as well, and possibly the brake fluid lines. It could get expensive. 

Without meaning any disrespect, I can't see any benefit arising from installing larger front brakes on a North American Region (NAR) V8 Phaeton. Phaetons divide into two groups, 'heavy' Phaetons (the W12 and V10 TDI powered cars) and 'light' Phaetons (the V8 and 6 cylinder powered cars). All NAR Phaetons, regardless of engine, are limited to 210 km/h (about 130 MPH). VW has determined that the same brakes that are fitted to your V8 are good enough for my W12 - because neither one of our cars can go faster than 210 km/h. The only benefit of having the larger brake assemblies on the front is their ability to absorb the additional energy required to stop the car from speeds of 280 km/h (the limiting speed of the ROW W12) or 250 km/h (the Vmax of the V10). 

In other words, you already have larger brakes than you need on the car... so, not much would be gained by putting even bigger brakes up there. 

Lastly, the cost to overhaul the 360 mm brakes (replacement pads and discs) is horrendous, the parts are very expensive. 

Michael


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Uh huh! Hmmm... I don't see why it has to be so expensive... 

Looks like Bentley Continental Flying Spur brake upgrade uses 405mm x 22mm whereas NAR cars uses 360mm x 22mm for the front. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BREMBO-Rear...2007|Make:Bentley&hash=item3f1884a340&vxp=mtr 


I'd probably just call up Wilwood Brake to see if they can come up with an upgrade kit for our Phaetons... which includes new calipers and mounts.


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## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

I was mostly just thinking of putting in OEM parts, not a brembo upgrade. I suppose with Michael's knowledge I will just forget that and wait until I cook the heck out of the stock ones to think more about it, shouldn't be long. I went through brakes on my mustang all too quickly, and that was a 3,400lb car with 12.5" vented/drilled front rotors. They actually developed internal heat fractures after about a year and a half on the same rotors. 

At least napa pricing on phaeton brakes will make this process not too painful. Only $107 for a new front rotor! Not bad. Where do you guys buy new rotors/pads from?


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

I have a lot of experience with brake system. I never tracked the car though. 

What kind of brake pads are you using? Tell me all things you do and experience with brake services... brands of pads and rotors and types of rotors. 

Basing on what you said about Mustang, I think you are tracking your car. If this is so, you do need a bigger rotors to dissipate heat. A simple upgrade would be to go to slotted or cross drilled rotors with more aggressive brake pads. This simple upgrade cost is minimal and the performance improvement is about 20% better with less chance of rotor failure. 


As for VW Phaeton, not many places sells rotors and those that do sell the same stuff. Rockauto got the best prices so far on rotors. I am not so happy with the brake pad selections. I normally use Akebono brake pads for street use. 

You have to remember, even though Phaeton is close to 3 ton, it has a massive 14.25" rotor in the front... that insane ebay upgrade is 16.1" upgrade!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

The largest Phaeton front rotors are the 365mm ones on the V10 and some W12s, using OEM Brembo 8-pad calipers. 

The set of rotor, caliper and pads lists at about $1500 per corner. 

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I seem to remember somebody else looking quite closely at this and finding some other expensive stumbling block. I never did understand why they'd want to bother anyway, given how good the brakes already are on the V8. I've hit mine hard at 3 figure speeds without any problems, and I doubt anybody's going to track a Phaeton!


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Paximus said:


> The largest Phaeton front rotors are the 365mm ones on the V10 and some W12s, using OEM Brembo 8-pad calipers.
> 
> The set of rotor, caliper and pads lists at about $1500 per corner.
> 
> Chris


 Only 5mm bigger? How about the thickness? 

The 8 piston caliper is a major upgrade... the amount of surface area to slow the car down is a major difference. 

I supposed if I were really want to upgrade, I'd source used calipers from Europe, the carriers for it and new pads and rotors. If that is not an option, then I'd find a wrecked Bentley and transfer everything over. Most likely the Bentley doesn't even have much mileage on it.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

The 365mm rotors are 35mm thick with an air gap. The OEM VW ones are not drilled, although the otherwise similar Audi ones are. 

I think the Bentleys use 19" rotors to cope with the stop energy from a full 201mph specification. 

Chris


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Here is a similar discussion: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-Phaeton&p=81413752&viewfull=1#post81413752 

Damon


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Paximus said:


> The 365mm rotors are 35mm thick with an air gap. The OEM VW ones are not drilled, although the otherwise similar Audi ones are.
> 
> I think the Bentleys use 19" rotors to cope with the stop energy from a full 201mph specification.
> 
> Chris


 That's interesting Chris. I was looking at Rockauto for more info on our NAR front brake disc... they all said *360mm *and 34mm wide. 30.5lb each front rotor!!! WOW! 

Jason at the old discussion thread discussed about upgrade package... and said the rotor is the same... just the caliper, carriers for the calipers and brake pads are in the kit.3


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I was somewhat shocked when I went to pick up the rotors for my V8. They're far & away the heaviest I've ever come across. In my experience, they're also MUCH more resistant to warping than on any other car I've owned.


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> I was somewhat shocked when I went to pick up the rotors for my V8. They're far & away the heaviest I've ever come across. In my experience, they're also MUCH more resistant to warping than on any other car I've owned.


 LOL... at almost 31 pounds each! The biggest rotor I ever dealt with is the BMW 540i... but the Phaeton is far larger by almost 2".


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I initially tried to pick up both rotors together from the counter at the dealership.... Their sheer bulk is one of the reasons I didn't see a big issue with running the old ones beyond the minimum thickness specification.


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## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

Well, I tested mine a little harder, and they held up without warpage remarkably well, but still what doesn't make sense to me is how the NAR brakes are 260mm diam., while my mustang's brakes were 315mm stock and warped much more rapidly. Thickness or engineering or magic?


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

zoltan99 said:


> Well, I tested mine a little harder, and they held up without warpage remarkably well, but still what doesn't make sense to me is how the NAR brakes are 260mm diam., while my mustang's brakes were 315mm stock and warped much more rapidly. Thickness or engineering or magic?


Sorry... TYPO Error... corrected now... it is 360mm

I took a look at say 2010 Mustang 4.6l engine... it comes close to what you say... 315mm and 30mm thick. That is quite a big difference in size compared to Phaeton but also a lot lighter.

Brake rotor warps because of excessive heat and one of the cause is lousy brake pads... which is why I asked you what brand of brake pads are you using. Using a regular brake pad for spirited driving is guaranteed for warping. Look at your brake rotor... is it mirror like? If it is mirror like... does it have like bluish tinting? Those are sign of overheating and must be replaced when you buy new brake pad.

There are a lot of factors so the more information you offer, the more we can talk about it. 

On the other hand... I looked up GT500 brake and that one comes up with Phaeton size... 355mm and 33mm thick. Definitely required bigger wheels.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't think it's got much to do with the pads, it's the construction of the rotor itself. If you run an expensive rotor, it lasts longer than a cheaper one made for the same vehicle regardless of the pads.


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## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

Ohhhhhh I see, the NAR are 360 and W12/V10 ROW are 365 but with 8-pot calipers. I get it now, thanks!

Wow, those are truly some massive brakes. Gahhhh, I love my Phaeton. They were downright _impressively_ warp-resistant the other night, though I did heat them up enough to start to not grab as hard, that was when I let off and went home.

I used napa brake pads, probably not the best. I wanted to buy the ultra premium napa ones (I needed them right then, or I would have gotten proper nice ones from the internet) but my automotive instructor strongly urged me to go with the "Adaptive One" pads, and they really did not perform the same. Not bitey at all, not very fun, but they worked and were pads with lots of life in them so I left them.

Wait, if the large rotors are 365mm, why does the ABS module coding include 16", 17", and 18" rotors? So confusing.


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

zoltan99 said:


> I used napa brake pads, probably not the best. I wanted to buy the ultra premium napa ones (I needed them right then, or I would have gotten proper nice ones from the internet) but my automotive instructor strongly urged me to go with the "Adaptive One" pads, and they really did not perform the same. Not bitey at all, not very fun, but they worked and were pads with lots of life in them so I left them.



That's your learning lesson... those pads are bad and your instructor have no clue what he is talking about. You would be really amazed what a proper brake job does for the car. New rotor and high performance brake pads are amazing.

Slotted and Cross-drilled rotors are even more amazing.

Most standard brake pads have good initial bite but fades as you brake harder. High performance pads... depending on the level... has good initial bite but grabs even harder when pressed harder with full control by you.


The Phaeton brake system is already amazing... this is not something I usually encounter. It already had awesome setup as stock... I can only imagine that it is the size of the rotors and the right pad choice picked by VW for this very purpose... maybe they consulted with Porsche about this.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Indeed. The fantastic performance of the stock parts is why I've stuck with them. I'd rate the system as at least as good as any of the Porsches I've owned.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

zoltan99 said:


> ...I will just forget that and wait until I cook the heck out of the stock ones to think more about it, shouldn't be long.


Hi Zoltan:

I was rolling on the floor laughing when I read your remark above. Obviously you don't live in the little town I do (Sidney, BC, on Vancouver Island) - the speed limit in this town, which has a very high percentage of elderly people, is 30 km/h (20 MPH). I guess the brakes on my W12 will last forever - especially considering I drive less than 1,000 km (630 miles) every year.



zoltan99 said:


> ...if the large rotors are 365mm, why does the ABS module coding include 16", 17", and 18" rotors? So confusing.


That's because there has been (and still are) many more variations of Phaeton sold in Europe than in North America. All we ever got in North America was the long wheelbase V8 and W12 Phaetons. In Europe, you could also get V6 FWD gasoline powered Phaetons, V6 TDI, V10 TDI, in both long and short wheelbase versions, plus even a standard transmission Phaeton, with a V6 gasoline engine (not offered after 2004). Thus, many different size brake components were used.

Michael


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## CFOOSE1 (Oct 21, 2012)

*Phaeton rotors*



zoltan99 said:


> I was mostly just thinking of putting in OEM parts, not a brembo upgrade. I suppose with Michael's knowledge I will just forget that and wait until I cook the heck out of the stock ones to think more about it, shouldn't be long. I went through brakes on my mustang all too quickly, and that was a 3,400lb car with 12.5" vented/drilled front rotors. They actually developed internal heat fractures after about a year and a half on the same rotors.
> 
> At least napa pricing on phaeton brakes will make this process not too painful. Only $107 for a new front rotor! Not bad. Where do you guys buy new rotors/pads from?


Hey zoltan99, I drive an 04 v8, six months ago I resourced front pads and rotors for my car, what I ended up getting was a front cross drilled rotor set listed for the 2003 Audi a8 (very beefy)w/ceramic pads, 200.00+ shipping. Worth looking into.... Jermany71


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## GeigerVW (Aug 15, 2012)

*Phaeton rotor thickness?*

What are the guidelines for the thickness for a 2004 NAR V8? I think mine are around 31mm right now.

G


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

That's right at the minimum. Specs are front: 31-34mm, rear: 20-22mm. I ran my fronts for several months after they'd reached the minimum without any problems, that way they stretch to two sets of pads per set of rotors.


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## johnnyjiang (Feb 24, 2014)

PanEuropean said:


> Hi Zoltan:
> 
> You might discover that if you want to install the very large front brake calipers that are fitted to the Rest of World (ROW) W12 and V10 powered Phaetons, or to the Bentleys, you will have to replace the master cylinder as well, and possibly the brake fluid lines. It could get expensive.
> 
> ...


Thanks Michael. do you mean that if I take the speed limit off from the v8 phaeton, I don't need to upgrade the brake system because those are the ones that v8 equipped with all over the world?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Johnny:

I believe that the brakes are the same on both the North American and Rest of World versions of the V8. The only situation in which the NAR vs. ROW Phaetons differ in brake fitment is the 'heavy' Phaeton - the W12.

Michael


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## johnnyjiang (Feb 24, 2014)

Thank you! I will try to take the limit off now before I was concerning about the brake system.


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