# Cam comparison dynos



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

Engine: 2008cc 1.8T
AEB head- no porting
Various CAT cams
Hypertune intake mani
70mm Mustang TB
Pag Parts cast V-band mani
Tial 38mm v-band wastegate
GT3071R v-band turbo
3" downpipe
Magnaflow muffler
Stand alone management
Test done on Superflow 901 engine dyno
Intake air temp controlled by large liquid/air intercooler
93 octane pump gas
Safe street tune
20 psi
Test pull from 2000 to 8000rpm
20psi 93 octane pump gas with a safe street tune. 300RPM/sec 
You can see the point where the boost hits 20psi and the wastegate takes over where the curve flattens out at 3700rpm 
Black= stock cams
9001= CAT 3651 intake 108 centerline, stock exhaust
9002= CAT 3651 intake 113 centerline, stock exhaust









_Modified by bobqzzi at 8:17 PM 9-2-2009_


_Modified by bobqzzi at 8:17 PM 9-2-2009_


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

black= stock cams
Red= 3651 intake and exhaust at 107/112


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Black= stock
Red= Cat 3653 108/108 centers


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Black= stock
Red= 3658 105/110


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

excellent work bob. Looks like those 3658s are the ticket.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Black= stock
red= 3652 104/114


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Black= stock
Red = custom intake and exhaust










_Modified by bobqzzi at 9:14 PM 9-2-2009_


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

wow, that custom set is having your cake and eating it too. Is the custom one a cat cam?


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (20aeman)*

how much ????????


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

custom ones like mine bob?
i'm curious
im/email if you like
thx


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

Bob, I appreciate your efforts, thanks.
The 58's and the custom cam look decent http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by [email protected] at 6:48 AM 9-3-2009_


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

I feel bad for the people running 3652s...really no way you can justify using them unless you're revving well north of 8k....which most people don't really do.


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

Thanks for this Bob! Keeping everything the same between logs is great for an apples to apples comparison.
I'm curious, however, if there are secondary gains that can be had from doing a targeted/optimized tune (timing/fuel) for each cam phasing? Things like better spool and top end..
Again, this is great data! I just want to figure out how optimizing a system would shift the above plots around..


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_I feel bad for the people running 3652s...really no way you can justify using them unless you're revving well north of 8k....which most people don't really do.

Dont feel bad for anyone, those who bought them knew already from researching that they are a " top end " cam for larger based turbo's that wake up in the top end. Notice top end power on the 3652's are very good, and for someone with a larger framed turbo they would be ideal.
I have a set of 3652s I plan on running with a Bullseye S366. Should work perfectly rev'ing to 8500 or so.


_Modified by 16plus4v at 8:28 AM 9-3-2009_


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (16plus4v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16plus4v* »_
Dont feel bad for anyone, those who bought them knew already from researching that they are a " top end " cam for larger based turbo's that wake up in the top end. Notice top end power on the 3652's are very good, and for someone with a larger framed turbo they would be ideal.
I have a set of 3652s I plan on running with a Bullseye S366. Should work perfectly rev'ing to 8500 or so.

_Modified by 16plus4v at 8:28 AM 9-3-2009_

Top end cam?
That 1000rpm gain and 7000rpm loss cant be used by other then a 10 000rpm car flat shifting.
That one is a horrible cam.








The others look great.
The custom one will propably work great for 99.9% of all the vortexers



_Modified by [email protected] at 7:38 AM 9-3-2009_


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Top end cam?
That 1000rpm gain and 7000rpm loss cant be used by other then a 10 000rpm car flat shifting.
That one is a horrible cam.








The others look great.
The custom one will propably work great for 99.9% of all the vortexers

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:38 AM 9-3-2009_

I'm gonna have to agree. Bob's motor is revving to 8k, another 500rpm is still not gonna make the 52s worthwhile. Those things don't make any more power than the stockers till 6500+, and even then, the 58s and 53s have more area under the curve, and would still have enough in them for another 500rpm.
those custom cams really are the best ones for 99 percent of 1.8t owners. Don't have to sacrifice 3-400rpm worth of spool, nearly identical down low, and good power under the curve all the way to 8k.


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## zaberayx (Oct 31, 2004)

what about the 51? what you guys think ?


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

I think the custom cam is better than the 51. If you're looking for a "top end" cam with a reasonable rev limit, the 58s would be it. 
But by and large the custom setup is better than all of them, because you sacrifice little to nothing to get the extra power up top.


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## ncsumecheng (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: (20aeman)*

I can only assume the characteristics of each dyno profile for each cam is going to be exaggerated on the low and top end by a larger frame turbo.
I'm swapping a 3076 for a 6062 soon and may want cams sometime. The 3658 looks ideal for my 7800 RPM limiter.
I can only imagine on higher boost on a bigger frame turbo, the curve after 5000 RPM is going to be easily climbing harder than the 3071 used here.
Thanks so much for that Bob. That is very very good info and testing for us 1.8T guys. It makes cam choice for me very easy.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *16plus4v* »_
Dont feel bad for anyone, those who bought them knew already from researching that they are a " top end " cam for larger based turbo's that wake up in the top end. Notice top end power on the 3652's are very good, and for someone with a larger framed turbo they would be ideal.

Exactly... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
People keep forgetting that hp is a function of RPM.If you wanted 450whp @ 2500 rpm's then you have the wrong engine in your bay.The 3652's have always been recommended as a top end camshaft and Bob's results confirms this.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
That 1000rpm gain and 7000rpm loss cant be used by other then a 10 000rpm car flat shifting.

Fred I am sure you can understand that all of them will show a loss at some point on the graph as they just shift the power band.
Also to add to this,when most of us picked up 3652's , 3658's were not readily available (this is actually Bob's combo).
Excellent work Bob http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VRT (Dec 8, 2001)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

crap
I feel cheated


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## zaberayx (Oct 31, 2004)

i feel like i did a bad choice now by going with the 51 lol...


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Exactly... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
People keep forgetting that hp is a function of RPM.If you wanted 450whp @ 2500 rpm's then you have the wrong engine in your bay.The 3652's have always been recommended as a top end camshaft and Bob's results confirms this.
Fred I am sure you can understand that all of them will show a loss at some point on the graph as they just shift the power band.


I think a nice way of determining a good cam for a specific user is to find the "dropoff" point, where the VE starts a precipitous fall, and setting the rev limiter 500rpm after. This way, you get a nice, broad, usable powerband. The issue with the 52s is that they start at 6800 and god knows where they drop off. It's a hydraulic lifter cam that goes into an rpm range where you probably wouldn't want hydraulic lifters. Sort of useless. when the 58 and 53 have enough juice for 8-8.5k, while giving you better peak numbers and greater area under the curve, there really is no real world application for a 52.


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: (20aeman)*

They 58's look the most promising. They give up the most ground in the low end compared to the 51 and 53's but makes it up the fastest in the midrange and makes the most power up top. Deff seem like the camshaft of choice for a gt30+ turbo. The 52's look like they are just to much for a street car. Guess when my time comes for cams, i know which to go with


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_They 58's look the most promising. They give up the most ground in the low end compared to the 51 and 53's but makes it up the fastest in the midrange and makes the most power up top. Deff seem like the camshaft of choice for a gt30+ turbo. The 52's look like they are just to much for a street car. Guess when my time comes for cams, i know which to go with









nah, the mystery cams are the most promising imo. It's essentially a no compromise cam that keeps low end while giving you more up top. Something that you don't see everyday.


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (20aeman)*

I think you guys are forgetting that a 3071r starts to drop off just before 8k, therefor the it's not a good turbo to run comparisons on for the " top end " higher rpm power band cams. The top end power from the 3652's you can clearly see starts to climb at 8k, just where the 3071r starts to choke.
It's just as if I did these back to back tests with a s364 or a 35r rev'ing to 8500rpm, the 3651's would rob power up top. And you would see serious gains from the 3652's, more than the others i'm sure.


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (zaberayx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zaberayx* »_i feel like i did a bad choice now by going with the 51 lol...

Actually the 3651's are not bad either...I enjoy them. They give better boost response downlow over the 3658.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

mmmm 58's are nice...yummy. too many problems with 51's these days, hard to consider them, plus i want billet and non adjustable. which seems harder to come by.


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## foxhound720 (Sep 11, 2003)

*Re: (Vegeta Gti)*

How does the idle feel in a 3652 or 58 ? I have been in a 3651 and It was pretty smooth. I don't want something real lumpy.
( I am small block guy so to me big cam gets real lumpy ) I no knowledge of cams on a 1.8t.
Thanks guys.


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_
nah, the mystery cams are the most promising imo. It's essentially a no compromise cam that keeps low end while giving you more up top. Something that you don't see everyday.

Depends on the setup. The 58's make a good 20hp more than the custom cams with only a small loss at 3k-4k. My setup is a 10:1 2L 35r setup and the extra flow up top will be good for more than 20hp


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *foxhound720* »_How does the idle feel in a 3652 or 58 ? I have been in a 3651 and It was pretty smooth. I don't want something real lumpy.
( I am small block guy so to me big cam gets real lumpy ) I no knowledge of cams on a 1.8t.
Thanks guys.


i have 52's its barely even noticeable. nice and smooth


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Custom FTW...any chance of getting those out the door Bob?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (l88m22vette)*

For those that dont realize the time it takes to do this.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks Bob, this should be stickied


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Nice work bob. Funny how this came out like 3 days after I picked up a set of cams. At least I got a good set for my turbo. Actually [email protected] talked me into the 3658's, I really wanted the 52's. After seeing the dyno's i'm sure glad I took his advise.


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## foxhound720 (Sep 11, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_For those that dont realize the time it takes to do this.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks Bob, this should be stickied
 
I was thinking if there was something like this on vortex the other day and when I came across this, I was grateful. Thanks.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (foxhound720)*

Some relative catcam spec info to add to Bobs awesome test data.








Not saying my cams are the same as Bobs "custom" cams, but these are my "custom" cams after asking catcams whats best for my spec motor.. they made me these.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_For those that dont realize the time it takes to do this.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks Bob, this should be stickied

Seriously, this is some valuable information, given out for free! Many thanks for your efforts Bob! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BIG_Y (Jun 25, 2005)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (Agtronic)*

Many thanks for your efforts Bob! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## silvercar (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (BIG_Y)*

Id like to echo the thank yous to bob. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Id also agree with cincy and others that the 58s look like the most reasonable choice for a healthy street/ strip car.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

Happy to do it.
It took much longer than I would have liked to finally get this done.
I'll try to do a few more overlays with stuff 3651 vs 3652 etc..
I'll also be making my recomendations regarding what to run with what.
I'm going back Monday to stick on a ported head and see how much difference it makes.


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_I'll also be making my recomendations regarding what to run with what.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Mar 18, 2006)

Nice job Bob!Proffesional as always!
Thanks man!


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_I'm going back Monday to stick on a ported head and see how much difference it makes.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## O2VW1.8T (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*

Great job bob http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: (O2VW1.8T)*

Good Job Bob!!!
Why did i buy 3652's















any one want to buy some 3652's, the 3658's look way better


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (vdubguy97)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubguy97* »_Why did i buy 3652's









Because either A) you didn't research that the 3652 is a 8k + power making cam or B) someone sold you something because they had nothing else for you.


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: (16plus4v)*

or C) because there were no definitive dynos to compare them all and 3652's sounded good at the time now 3658's sound/look better..


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Happy to do it.
It took much longer than I would have liked to finally get this done.
I'll try to do a few more overlays with stuff 3651 vs 3652 etc..
I'll also be making my recomendations regarding what to run with what.
I'm going back Monday to stick on a ported head and see how much difference it makes.

Can we please get some more info on your custom grinds??? Also, are you going to do a comparison with some revolvers?


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

More info on the customs later.
No, I am not testing revolvers


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

*FV-QR*

Cheers to you fine sir for all this work you're doing for everyone!!


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (vdubguy97)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubguy97* »_Good Job Bob!!!
Why did i buy 3652's















any one want to buy some 3652's, the 3658's look way better









x2 lol...............nah just kidding i will just keep them lol


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## TTime (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (kamahao112)*

Nice work Bob, looks like I might wanna get me 58's


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Gets a little crowded, but you can see the trends
Black=3658
Red= 3652
Blue=3651
Green=3653
Purple= custom


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (badger5)*

great thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Question: What can the stock springs handle as far as lift goes?


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## Black Ice (Apr 27, 2006)

where can i get the purple "custom" cams from?


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## JakeAKAHarryPotter (Aug 28, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Beggers can't be choosers, but I would love to see a stock cam run in that overlay. Again, what we have here is AWESOME and thank you for it, I just think it would be nice to have that one more run in there


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

*Re: (krazygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *krazygti* »_where can i get the purple "custom" cams from?

X2! 
I am intersted to see how these would respond in a small port head.


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## silvercar (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*

Did you have a chance to do any testing with staggered setups including the stock cams? for example, a 3651 ex and a stock int? Or am i just overlooking something from the original posts?


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (silvercar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *silvercar* »_Did you have a chance to do any testing with staggered setups including the stock cams? for example, a 3651 ex and a stock int? Or am i just overlooking something from the original posts?

First test is 3651 intake, stock exhaust.
I didn't do any large exhaust/small intake comparisons as it was immedaitely apparent that it does not like a lot of exhaust cam.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*

Cam A9007 (purple) looks awesome to me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jettaman18t (Sep 14, 2005)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

Are these WHP numbers or BHP numbers? 58s sound legit on my 76r set up with a ported aeb and a built head


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *16plus4v* »_Because either A) you didn't research that the 3652 is a 8k + power making cam or B) someone sold you something because they had nothing else for you.


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubguy97* »_or C) because there were no definitive dynos to compare them all and 3652's sounded good at the time now 3658's sound/look better..

what about D) you have had your 52's since long before the 58's were thought of? 
and the 58 set is just a 52 intake and 51 exhaust, correct?

and jettaman, Bob does engine dyno data for us common folk. to take from his opening statement of this thread:

_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Test done on Superflow 901 engine dyno


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## jettaman18t (Sep 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (speeding-g60)*

gotcha shouldve read the whole thread haha.


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

since the 51 intake and stock exhaust works so well, is it possible to just buy an intake cam?


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_since the 51 intake and stock exhaust works so well, is it possible to just buy an intake cam?

That's going to be my recommendation for a lot of people


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
That's going to be my recommendation for a lot of people

Heck yeah. Half the price, pick up 1-200rpm earlier spool, and make more power EVERYWHERE, no messing with valvetrain, and you're only tampering with the intake valves, which lead an easier life anyway. The perfect setup for the average 50 trim 1.8t.



_Modified by 20aeman at 3:56 AM 9-7-2009_


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (20aeman)*

Looking at the 51 intake/stock exhaust combo, how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare?


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## Gus011 (Jul 8, 2004)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I bought a set of 3652 some time ago, which bob had suggested to use with my GT3071. I think i have been given the wrong advice.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_Looking at the 51 intake/stock exhaust combo, how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare? 


now that would be interesting......i would give it a try lol


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_Looking at the 51 intake/stock exhaust combo, how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare? 

Could be possible interference from overlap.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (badger5)*

stock cams are these Bob?
(I dont know how to interpret your camdoctor results off elitedubs into relative durations)


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (Gus011)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gus011* »_I bought a set of 3652 some time ago, which bob had suggested to use with my GT3071. I think i have been given the wrong advice.









You were given advice based on the best information at the time. There will be a regrind program for those with 3652 exhausts


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*

Bob in what way does the cams affect torgue?


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
You were given advice based on the best information at the time. *There will be a regrind program for those with 3652 exhausts*


HMMMM???? Info??? i have 52's before 58's were thought of as well.... 

_Quote, originally posted by *speeding-g60* »_what about D) you have had your 52's since long before the 58's were thought of? 
 
but mine is drag race only setup, so maybe i dont care


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*FV-QR*

i drive on the streets with 52's and it doesnt bother me, all of a sudden this becomes an issue? Im sure bob has warned all his buyers about what the 52's are about.


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## haenszel (Mar 14, 2004)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_Looking at the 51 intake/stock exhaust combo, how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare? 

I'd also like to know, perhaps a little insight from bob on what might happen here, since he seems to be able to "visualize" a little bit.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*

For those who have been pm'ing us about the combination's they have received in the past, you will be taken care of.Simply send over an email.


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## haenszel (Mar 14, 2004)

*Re: (INA)*

3658's vs 3652's vs stock...... hackjob photoshop style.


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## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (haenszel)*

Bob, you da man. I really appreciate the information.
I am wondering however if the deficit for the 52s actually decreases with more air flow from a larger turbo(ie. 35R+)?
Maybe someone could offer up a 35R+ for testing. Just the 58s vs the 52s. I am still on a 76R or I would send mine your way.


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*FV-QR*

i have a T-3 35R just sitting here doing nothing til next season








.63 A/R, ATP drilled anti-surge, ni-resist v-band hotside.
LMK.....
EDIT: i see that the testing was done with a v-band manifold, so i guess i can throw out that i have a BF made tubular mani as well, with 38mm WG.
we can get kooky, and i can send an 007 largeport manifold along for the intake side










_Modified by speeding-g60 at 9:23 PM 9-10-2009_


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (hypothetical)*

If I had to guess (which I do since I haven't done a test), I would say that even with a very large turbo the 3651 exhaust would be better. I think the 3652 just has too much exhaust duration.
Only test left for this round is sticking on a ported head.


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

Bob,
This is great info! I don't think I have ever seen so many good comparisons like this!
What A/R is the 30R that was tested?
Mine is a 30R .82 A/R with a pagparts logger T3 manifold.
2.0L
8.5:1 compression
8k rev as well.
I am building something almost exact to the test car and am loving these comparisons. 
Any recomendations for me? See sig. 



_Modified by Lou_Y2mK5 at 5:43 AM 9-11-2009_


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## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_If I had to guess (which I do since I haven't done a test), I would say that even with a very large turbo the 3651 exhaust would be better. I think the 3652 just has too much exhaust duration.
Only test left for this round is sticking on a ported head.

Yeah no worries, you have done too much already. 
How about, for those of us on the 52s, replacing our exhaust cams with a stock one. I know we would lose a great deal of the top end but it should, based on the other setups bring the mid-range back in. <---- This would be for street guys who bought the 52s but don't rev to or past 8K.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
You were given advice based on the best information at the time. There will be a regrind program for those with 3652 exhausts

can we get more info on this ??? my 52's are still brand new in the box could i trade them in for the custom cams or a set of 58's ???


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_Looking at the 51 intake/stock exhaust combo, how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare? 
I could be way off but I would think the intake side would be coming in strong right when the exhaust side would be running outta steam. Since the 58's look so good I bet the 51 intake and stock exhaust would be a great setup for 30r and lower. 35r and above no go unless you want a 1k rev range.


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*

Looks like I'm looking for cams (a cam) at the right time. thanks for the information. I'll give you a call before I buy.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_If I had to guess (which I do since I haven't done a test), I would say that even with a very large turbo the 3651 exhaust would be better. I think the 3652 just has too much exhaust duration.
Only test left for this round is sticking on a ported head.


Bob i know i asked a few posts ago up top, but going to try again - do you have the dyno graphs on how the cams affect torgue, or know how much they affect maybe?


----------



## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_

Bob i know i asked a few posts ago up top, but going to try again - do you have the dyno graphs on how the cams affect torgue, or know how much they affect maybe?

dude, torque is a function of horsepower. 
horsepower x 5250 
------------------------ = torque ....... just plug in the numbers
rpm

in other words, if it's making more horsepower, it's making proportionally more torque.


_Modified by 20aeman at 1:05 AM 9-14-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_
dude, torque is a function of horsepower. 
horsepower x 5250 
------------------------ = torque ....... just plug in the numbers
rpm

in other words, if it's making more horsepower, it's making proportionally more torque.

_Modified by 20aeman at 1:05 AM 9-14-2009_

well thats not gonna show me a torgue curve or see how the power curve of torgue is, and thats what im really interrested in - but thanks.


----------



## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
well thats not gonna show me a torgue curve or see how the power curve of torgue is, and thats what im really interrested in - but thanks.

yes it will, it just takes 5 minutes, a calculator, and plotting 10 points on a graph.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_
yes it will, it just takes 5 minutes, a calculator, and plotting 10 points on a graph.

But actual graphs might reveal something else, since 10 points is nothing compared to the 100 you miss unless you have really good time - but i get your point, but seeing their is a dyno of HP, their must be of torgue as well and it would just be nice to see those as well


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
But actual graphs might reveal something else, since 10 points is nothing compared to the 100 you miss unless you have really good time - but i get your point, but seeing their is a dyno of HP, their must be of torgue as well and it would just be nice to see those as well









2nd


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_
in other words, if it's making more horsepower, it's making proportionally more torque.



not necessarily . if you are making 300tq at say 5000rpms and with the cams, thats same 300tq is now at 5500 will net you ~20 more hp
But a more efficent engine will most likely still gain some tq 


_Modified by cincyTT at 11:10 AM 9-14-2009_


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*

Stock cams










_Modified by bobqzzi at 11:56 AM 9-14-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Stock cams









_Modified by bobqzzi at 11:56 AM 9-14-2009_

Thanks bob, and how does the stock cams dyno compare to the CAT`S?


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*

more tonight


----------



## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_
not necessarily . if you are making 300tq at say 5000rpms and with the cams, thats same 300tq is now at 5500 will net you ~20 more hp
But a more efficent engine will most likely still gain some tq 

_Modified by cincyTT at 11:10 AM 9-14-2009_

I'm talking about a point in the rev range. Two setups, one makes 300tq at 5k, the other makes 350tq at 5k...the one with more torque will have proportionally more horsepower and vice versa.


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_more tonight

top man
looking fwd to seeing them.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (badger5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *badger5* »_
top man
looking fwd to seeing them.


x2


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

This is a post just to thank you again Bob for doing this.
Pretty good resource here. 

Now the question is where can I find a 3651 intake cam only for my 3071R-WG daily driven street car?


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (gdoggmoney)*

9006= custom
9013=3658
9016=3652


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_9006= custom
9013=3658
9016=3652









Thanks Bob,
I like the 9006 and 9013










_Modified by DK_GTI_racer at 7:11 PM 9-14-2009_


----------



## Wolk's Wagon (Sep 27, 2000)

9006 FTW


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

there is places where the customs are making 50tq more than the 58's with not much loss in top end to the 58's. Seeing that, those look like a great set of cams


----------



## VRT (Dec 8, 2001)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
There will be a regrind program for those with 3652 exhausts

when will this start? Work also for billet cams?


----------



## O2VW1.8T (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_there is places where the customs are making 50tq more than the 58's with not much loss in top end to the 58's. Seeing that, those look like a great set of cams
x2, I wish i had these results when i ordered the 3652's.. I would of either gone the customs or 58's without a question.


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (O2VW1.8T)*

Let's not forget 58s were not around when allot of us were putting our motors together. Hopefully the regrind program will get moving soon.


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: (hypothetical)*

hmm....might have to look into something new soon.


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

any chance of getting the pics back up?


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (AudiTToR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AudiTToR* »_any chance of getting the pics back up?

are they not working?


_Modified by bobqzzi at 6:29 PM 9-16-2009_


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

I think the pics go away on the site cause there too big and create a bandwidth issue for the tex. If you right click on the missing image and copy its link address. You can paste it into another browser window and see them that way.


----------



## NOLA_VDubber (May 24, 2007)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (hypothetical)*

before I go hunting, anyone have any info on where one might procure a 3651 intake cam alone?
oh...and how much one might go for?


----------



## haenszel (Mar 14, 2004)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (NOLA_VDubber)*

bob can get it for $319.


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: (O2VW1.8T)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VRT (Dec 8, 2001)

*Re: (dubinsincuwereindiapers)*

any chance of a gt35 turbo would produce better results with a 52 or the 58 is still the best choice?


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_If I had to guess (which I do since I haven't done a test), I would say that even with a very large turbo the 3651 exhaust would be better. I think the 3652 just has too much exhaust duration.
Only test left for this round is sticking on a ported head.

Here is bob's response to that exact question from me earlier.


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: (hypothetical)*

Same here.


----------



## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

Looks like I am now in the market for custom cams! :~)


----------



## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (sledge0001)*

bob will there be another dyno for the 3652 regrind cams?????????

or could i trade my brand new still in the box 3652's for a set of 3658's if i pay the shipping????


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (kamahao112)*

yeah son 3658


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (Vegeta Gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vegeta Gti* »_yeah son 3658









3658 are for pussiex too affraid or too cheap to build their motors to run 9500-10,000rpm. 3652
are for the real Hardcore VW fan. 
Weak sauce...


----------



## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (hypothetical)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vegeta Gti* »_yeah son 3658








agreed, but only cuz i bought um lol









_Quote, originally posted by *hypothetical* »_
3658 are for pussiex too affraid or too cheap to build their motors to run 9500-10,000rpm. 3652
are for the real Hardcore VW fan. 
Weak sauce...



















_Modified by velocity196 at 8:45 PM 9-24-2009_


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (hypothetical)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hypothetical* »_
3658 are for pussiex too affraid or too cheap to build their motors to run 9500-10,000rpm. 3652
are for the real Hardcore VW fan. 
Weak sauce...









Semi - Agreed. 
It's clear that at 8k that cam setup starts to wake up. Would be nice to see a 35r + sized turbo, w/ 3652's going 8500+. 
Not that Bob's efforts haven't done enough. I'm sure eventually it will come around.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (16plus4v)*

u crazy bastards.


----------



## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (hypothetical)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hypothetical* »_
3658 are for pussiex too affraid or too cheap to build their motors to run 9500-10,000rpm. 3652
are for the real Hardcore VW fan. 
Weak sauce...









but i dont drive a honda lol lol lol nah i dont wanna rev that high on the street ...now on the track sure ...but that is not where my car will be doing its driving http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (kamahao112)*

Can't beat them join them. Not interested in beating them? Stop trying. Hondas are on top for a
reason. They work. 
Step it up dubland. Step it up....


----------



## Autronic _A4 (Feb 27, 2009)

Hi Bob, which standalone is used for the test car ? I have almost the same set-up and about to buy 3658 from you so do you mind me to see your timing table while using those agressive cams especcially on 3658.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

*Re: (hypothetical)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hypothetical* »_
3658 are for pussiex too affraid or too cheap to build their motors to run 9500-10,000rpm. 3652
are for the real Hardcore VW fan. 
Weak sauce...









Why stop there? 0cc flat top.. LETS DO EET!








But seriously, these cams are all about different strokes for different folks. One isnt really 'better' then the other unless its compared to each other on individual's personal goals and we are comparing comparable cams http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Haha forgot I even posted. I agree. Different strokes for different folks. I was just messing around. 3658s definitely seem to be the hot setup for 95% of the car out there.


----------



## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (hypothetical)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hypothetical* »_Haha forgot I even posted. I agree. Different strokes for different folks. I was just messing around. 3658s definitely seem to be the hot setup for 95% of the car out there.









thank you http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i live in hawaii and there is alot of hills and mountains so a little more mid range torque would be good ...i bought my cams about 8 months ago when this info was not out yet ...would i have known better at the time i would have gotten the 53's or the 58's right off the bat....
my motor will be able to spin to 8.5-9 k but i want it to last for a few years so i pan on keeping it safe and staying right below 8k and for that i feel the 52's will hurt me more than help me ......

my goal for my engine has always been 400 whp @ no more than 20 psi ...on a 2 liter ,aeb head ,head work and cams with the option to turn the boost up and really make some numbers but turn it back down and it should be reliable and fun .....and most importantly a long lasting motor http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

bob, are the 3658s doable on stock valvesprings? Redline is 7500...


----------



## haenszel (Mar 14, 2004)

*Re: (20aeman)*

I'm gonna pick up a 3651 exhaust cam so I can do some 3658 and 3652 back to back dyno's on a 35r+ car.
Looks like the 3658 still holds out better, because I only rev my car to 8000-8500, the lower end(6k+) still has more power. It's probably going to depend a bunch on gearing at the track, but considering I have the s4 trans in my car w/the longer RPM drops I bet the 58's will come up on top, at least for this application.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (haenszel)*

you freakin baller


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (Vegeta Gti)*

Who's selling just the 3651 intake cam ?


----------



## JakeAKAHarryPotter (Aug 28, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Bob is...


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (20aeman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20aeman* »_bob, are the 3658s doable on stock valvesprings? Redline is 7500...

No


----------



## 50trim S (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
No

why not at only 7500 what else would be needed? stiffer springs?


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
But seriously, these cams are all about different strokes for different folks. One isnt really 'better' then the other unless its compared to each other on individual's personal goals and we are comparing comparable cams http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I could not agree more, i was interested in getting cams, but after seeing what it does to torgue level over stock, im definitely keeping the stockers, i like torgue more then hp


----------



## hypothetical (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
I could not agree more, i was interested in getting cams, but after seeing what it does to torgue level over stock, im definitely keeping the stockers, i like torgue more then hp









like torque buy Vr6 or bigger. I love the way power continues to build in a high RPM engine. It keeps pulling and pulling and never goes flat like big torqy low rpm motors. 

Valve spring ?
You need stronger valve springs because they are moving much more with the higher lift cams.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (hypothetical)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hypothetical* »_
like torque buy Vr6 or bigger. I love the way power continues to build in a high RPM engine. It keeps pulling and pulling and never goes flat like big torqy low rpm motors. 

Valve spring ?
You need stronger valve springs because they are moving much more with the higher lift cams. 

Well i like high RPM engines as well, and i have full torgue from 4k to 7k as of now, thats what i like and i rev to 7800rpm, i dont like vr6 machines..but i wont give up torgue for hp...torgue=acceleration, hp=topspeed - i like acceleration


----------



## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
No

I'm assuming 7500 on the 58s are doable with just upgraded intake valvesprings since the exhaust is a 51? 
I really don't like the idea of using a stiffer valvespring than needed, especially on the sodium filled exhaust valves.


----------



## 50trim S (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: (20aeman)*

bob are the custom grinds going to be available?
do you plan to do more tests with a bigger turbo and/or more rpm's to see when or if the 52's fall off?
thanks for what you have done already http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
is it possible to just buy an exhaust cam and if so would that work pretty well?
i thought i read somewhere that changing the intake cam didn't do much
let us know


_Modified by 50trim S at 11:18 PM 10-22-2009_


----------



## jc_bb (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (50trim S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50trim S* »_bob are the custom grinds going to be available?
do you plan to do more tests with a bigger turbo and/or more rpm's to see when or if the 52's fall off?
thanks for what you have done already http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
is it possible to just buy an exhaust cam and if so would that work pretty well?
i thought i read somewhere that changing the intake cam didn't do much
let us know

_Modified by 50trim S at 11:18 PM 10-22-2009_

have you finished porting that head yet?.......


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (jc_bb)*

lol ..


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: (jc_bb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jc_bb* »_
have you finished porting that head yet?.......


HAHAHA this idiot thinks 50 Trim S is me.

BAWAHAHAHA






















Just a minor differnce here and there.


_Modified by AudiTToR at 7:08 AM 10-23-2009_


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (AudiTToR)*

No I would think he's saying 50trim S is related to "blackedoutaudi".. since he posted that bogus abour porting..
Just my guess lol.


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (50trim S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50trim S* »_bob are the custom grinds going to be available?
do you plan to do more tests with a bigger turbo and/or more rpm's to see when or if the 52's fall off?
thanks for what you have done already http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









I'd like to see what the 3652's will do on a 9k BG TURBO car vs the 4658's to end all conceptions.


_Modified by 16plus4v at 10:14 AM 10-23-2009_


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: (16plus4v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16plus4v* »_No I would think he's saying 50trim S is related to "blackedoutaudi".. since he posted that bogus abour porting..
Just my guess lol.


Haha...i was called 50 Trim S over in the Fab forums asking about where to get one of my AEB heads ported.
It was a funny way to start my morning. And I needed it, its been a long week.


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (50trim S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50trim S* »_bob are the custom grinds going to be available?
do you plan to do more tests with a bigger turbo and/or more rpm's to see when or if the 52's fall off?
thanks for what you have done already http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
is it possible to just buy an exhaust cam and if so would that work pretty well?
i thought i read somewhere that changing the intake cam didn't do much
let us know

_Modified by 50trim S at 11:18 PM 10-22-2009_

Yes, curves didn't change. Picked up about 30 HP.
it is pretty clear that a big exhaust cam is a loser on a 1.8T. I don't think it would matter how high the revs are or how big the turbo.
Replacing the intake cam made an excellent improvement.
All the cams listed are currently available as singles or a set.


----------



## 50trim S (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: (50trim S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50trim S* »_bob are the custom grinds going to be available?
thanks for what you have done already http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
is it possible to just buy an exhaust cam and if so would that work pretty well?
i thought i read somewhere that changing the intake cam didn't do much
let us know
_Modified by 50trim S at 11:18 PM 10-22-2009_

if i missed something that you answered i apologize, so please answer it again
thanks againn bob
so this question i think everyone is wanting to know is can we buy the "custom" cams you tested?


_Modified by 50trim S at 10:40 AM 10-23-2009_


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (50trim S)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thnx for going the extra mile for everyone of us Bob Great Job


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
Replacing the intake cam made an excellent improvement.

After 10 years Autotech only decided to release an intake cam....go figure.


----------



## 50trim S (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

did you try with the stock exhaust cam and any other intake cam other than the 51?
i saw where you said "Intake alone works very well" about your custom purple cams
it would be nice if you found a combo with the stock exhaust and just change the one cam and it work better than changing both out 
any idea how the stock cams from the european NA motors would fair or if either of those would help with some sort of combonation?


----------



## coreyj (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (50trim S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50trim S* »_did you try with the stock exhaust cam and any other intake cam other than the 51?
i saw where you said "Intake alone works very well" about your custom purple cams
it would be nice if you found a combo with the stock exhaust and just change the one cam and it work better than changing both out 
any idea how the stock cams from the european NA motors would fair or if either of those would help with some sort of combonation?


ADR cams work very well for $350 some say 20 hp+


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (coreyj)*

I guess Ill ask the big question since no one else has.
So what about those who are running a mechanical head?

Those cams are a lot more agressive than our set ups, but will they react the same way?
I also was wondering what makes our cam set ups react to much differently than an evo/dsm head?


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (bobqzzi)*

bumps for an answer from the morning group?


----------



## EuroTrash88 (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (coreyj)*

nice write up, def gonna be helping me choose the right cam for mys setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (EuroTrash88)*

hmm....i am thinkin 53's now.still. bump for bob and his amazing research for us


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (Vegeta Gti)*

I sent Bob my 3652's to regrind the exhaust cam to the 3651 specs. I was told that this combination will make excellent power capturing much more power in the power curve. I sent the cams around Thanksgiving so I should have something to report in a couple of weeks.


----------



## K20017 (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: (16plus4v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16plus4v* »_








I'd like to see what the 3652's will do on a 9k BG TURBO car vs the 4658's to end all conceptions.

_Modified by 16plus4v at 10:14 AM 10-23-2009_

I just got back from a deployment. I'll help you out with that request







Probably around February though


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: (K20017)*

Have any of the 1.8 owners done an cam swap with the CAT 3652's cams and used the 3651 on the exhaust side?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

*FV-QR*

That's what a 3658 is.


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

3658 is a 3652 Intake with a 3651 Exhaust combination?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

yep.


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Combined with a 35R this combination should do well don't you think?


----------



## mk2DTM8v (Feb 18, 2005)

makes me wana sell the intake cam from my 51's and pick up a 52 intake!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (mk2DTM8v)*

so the custom is just an intake?? how much??


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

yeah, any details on this?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (screwball)*

i think it's a set but i feel like i read it as a single(intake) cam


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I'm more interested in if it's FS yet.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (screwball)*

tru that


----------



## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

So... I currently have the 53s with my k04-02x setup. I'm running 9-9.5psi right now and it feels like they're starting to pull around 5000-5500rpms. They're the press on gear style FWIW. Is there anything I should consider doing instead? Are there any regrinds for the 53s or any different intake/exhaust cams that make them better? Honestly though, I don't think my k04-02x results fit within the 3071 results on the first page. I'm definitely getting what I'd say feels like a good bit more power sooner than that showed, but I was hoping to have a set of cams that moved more around 4000-4500 to compliment the fall off of the k04.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (04VDubGLI)*

more boost, add timing.


----------



## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (gtimitch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtimitch* »_
3658 is a 3652 Intake with a 3651 Exhaust combination?

Im not sure if this was asked or answered.. but what would one think about the 3652s with the stock exhaust vs the 51...


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (GLI_jetta)*

apparently just an intake cam is a greaatttt upgrade. not sure about the 52 intake only, but the 51 intake seems to be great on it's own. i got a set of 51's comin with an AEB, i also just did another dyno since i finally got all my tweaking down.
as soon as i get my head on, and such and so on, i will dyno again. no uni update for the cams,head or SEM tho. jus gonna wing it. don't have time to wait a month, **** even two weeks for it get done, and possibly be wrong.


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Vegeta Gti)*

what's so pressing that you're not going to do it right and update your tune before you dyno again? i wouldn't dyno until everything is 100%. otherwise it's a waste of time and money. be patient, get an update, dyno and rest assured that your dyno IS what it IS and not short of what it COULD be. ...just my .02


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (inivid)*

it's my only car. i can have the head and such done in a few hours. can't be without the car for weeks while i wait for a small update, especially with all of the things i have seen friends go through lately with uni and shipping ECU's.
my car, my money, my call.


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Vegeta Gti)*

only car. got it. nuff said. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (inivid)*


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## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Vegeta Gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vegeta Gti* »_









Im def curious on the results.. I mean if there are awesome gains which seems to be the case... It saves people 50%.. not that if replacing the exhaust was recommended for a higher margin of gains.. find id do it.. just have to wait a little longer..


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## jk35 (Sep 1, 2008)

*solids*

Thanks for all the work, Bob. This thread is an extremely valuable resource, and as many others, I sincerely appreciate your endeavors.
I am sitting on the fence as to whether i'll buy a set of Hyd. cams or make the jump to solids... Is anyone aware of any comparisons done with solid lifter cams (anything even remotely close to the data in this thread would be great. At first glance, I am interested in the 3775's, however what I would really like to see is any comparisons of stock cams vs Cat hyd. cams vs Cat solid cams.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

i get red X where plots were
have the pictures gone off line?


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## A4robm (Feb 15, 2005)

I can still see them. Must be your computer


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## inovillo (Nov 12, 2001)

*Re: (A4robm)*

Anybody knows what the duration on the stock exhaust cam is?


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (inovillo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inovillo* »_Anybody knows what the duration on the stock exhaust cam is? 

http://www.elitedubs.com/index....html


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*

bob, have you ever tested the 3652's near 10,000rpm's to see what the real top end power on these were? it seems someone might be able to advantage of these with a really large turbo. Say gt40r or bigger. just curious


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (version1.655)*


_Quote, originally posted by *version1.655* »_bob, have you ever tested the 3652's near 10,000rpm's to see what the real top end power on these were? it seems someone might be able to advantage of these with a really large turbo. Say gt40r or bigger. just curious









I wouldn't run a hydro to 10,000, so no. I think the 3652s are not going to be the optimum for any situation.


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
I wouldn't run a hydro to 10,000, so no. I think the 3652s are not going to be the optimum for any situation.

Don't they have a 3652 cams cut for the solid lifters too??


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (foxhound720)*

great info! keep up the stellar work


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## gpelekanos (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Cam comparison dynos (carsluTT)*

I was advised from Bob long ago for 52's at my 1.8T big turbo .
I hope that the 3652 exhaust regrind in combination with the adjustable sprockets to improve and solve some of the issues that i am facing .
People that using the 52's cams do they canceling the VVT ?








Thank you Bob for all that infos http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

indirect question on cams..
how much does the VVT alter the cam timing when running?
thinking about check my clearances on the new motor build given the issues I had on the old one last week.
thx


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (badger5)*

I believe it is 22 degrees.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_I believe it is 22 degrees.

thanks Bob. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

*Re: (badger5)*

thanks bob for this thread and TT for linking this to me. i have alot better understanding.... if i understand correctly the 58 would be better for me even though the 52 is managable. thanks again this is a tremeandous thread with info over load, ive read it twice


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: (BigAl03GTI)*

52's would be terrible for you. You would just add lag and nothing else really. It seems the 51 intake or his custom grind (with springs) is the best overall setups


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

*Re: (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_52's would be terrible for you. You would just add lag and nothing else really. It seems the 51 intake or his custom grind (with springs) is the best overall setups

i see what youre saying TT, thank you again, i appreciate the help


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_
I wouldn't run a hydro to 10,000, so no. I think the 3652s are not going to be the optimum for any situation.


x2. The valves will float around 9500 with most valve spring / cam profile combinations I've seen, using the heavy hydraulic lifters... Thats assuming the lifters don't collapse or pump up first. 
The 52 exhaust cam is massively oversized in terms of lift. 
I'm sure one could get a hydro setup to go 10k with enough development- a gentle cam profile, perhaps shimming the springs some, etc... But... That gentle cam profile would cost power almost across the board. 
DLC coated titanium hydraulic lifters or something


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*FV-QR*

so in conclusion the 52's do nothing but hurt power/power band regardless of how you look at it?


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_so in conclusion the 52's do nothing but hurt power/power band regardless of how you look at it?

thats basically what ive learned from this thread. its def not for me and my set up. 51 is seeming to be the way to go for me, and my daily driver.


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

BigAl03GTI said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_so in conclusion the 52's do nothing but hurt power/power band regardless of how you look at it?
> 
> thats basically what ive learned from this thread. its def not for me and my set up. 51 is seeming to be the way to go for me, and my daily driver.


I just installed the 3658's I got from Pete last yr and I'm pretty confident they are TDC even tho it's not as easy as TDCing the stock sets. Unlike some others here I really enjoy doing as much work on my own as I can and this head build even tho it was a pain was a great experience. With that said this cam and aeb head replacement has been challenging is a few different ways. At first it seemed something was wrong and out of alignment but I'm starting to see that these aren't very good daily cams for most users. I personally am willing to trade some low end drivability for top end power. Obviously on a 3071 or maybe even 30r these cams wouldnt be so great. Like the graphs provided from Bob these cams don't really move until 5 grand and then it makes a DBB turbo feel like a journal. Pretty much nothing but wait and then the big hit come. And let me add it does come on in a big fury. On the low side boost wise it feels slower and less powerful but once the boost is brought up to at least 20lbs it's deff brings the power up and holds it all the way to my 8200rpm limiter. I still need to get an adjustable cam gear but once I get that I'll be calling you guys (bob Pete or both) for info. There is no real information on adjusting these cams which is a huge bummer for us end users. Granted it's dangerous work but still cat should at a minimum provide info on their sprocket adjustments in degrees. I was to excited when I got these to talk to you (Pete) about how the spockets work and in how many degrees they move. I'm kinda rambing here but guys take my advice, even these 3658 will make normal off boost driving a lil unpleasant. For me right now tho, 5k to redline is amazing thanks Bob and Pete :thumb:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

Bump to bring it up/watch


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Any further info on Bob's Custom grind?


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

3651's here for the past 4 years...:thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

if other BS would stop popping up i would have had mine inand head swapped...custom grind looks super fun and great for a DD nsetup


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

yeah ^^^ exactly.


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## 99.5blacka4 (Jun 29, 2008)

You dont happen to have data on stock vs custom intake cam/stock exhaust or would that be a waste of a time?


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## IzVW (Jul 24, 2003)

3651's are fantastic. Even when my Jetta was my daily driver a few years ago I didn't regret my choice. Don & Bob certainly helped with advice too.


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

:beer:hey bob i sent you an IM about the customs, hope all is well and thank you again for all the information :beer:


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

Was the test done with the factory cam gear? Or did you use a CAT adjustable one set specific to each cam?


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## dj givv (May 20, 2005)

:thumbup:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

Any chance of seeing how some of these perform using the vvt tensioner? Sort of like what they did with the 58s - I wonder how the tensioner would affect everything else now too.


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## 3.3.7 (Nov 3, 2009)

Anyone have a back to back dyno of the stock intake/stock exhaust vs aftermarket intake/stock exhaust? Looking to get some more power but being that it is a street car I do not see the need to pickup power past 6000rpms with and exhaust cam.

Stock 1.8T
28RS 
AEB head


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

this should be a sticky or in FAQ,etc


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

F. T. W. :thumbup:

i love going back to threads like this. great stuff! :beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer:


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## ricekikr (Feb 24, 2010)

Will the curves be exaclty the same (albeit in the lower power range) with a stock AEB head 1.8t?

I have a stock 1.8t with 50trim .48 a/r and was wondering what the best cam would be. Leaning towards the 9001 intake only. Planning on installing rods/valves at the same time as the cams.


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## 50trim S (Jun 3, 2008)

> ricekikr
> 
> Will the curves be exaclty the same (albeit in the lower power range) with a stock AEB head 1.8t?
> 
> I have a stock 1.8t with 50trim .48 a/r and was wondering what the best cam would be. Leaning towards the 9001 intake only. Planning on installing rods/valves at the same time as the cams.


hey Bob,
what about that ported head testing?
ever test the 52-stock combo?
also i missed somewhere what is needed for a 7500-8000 redline i remember you saying no whe someone asked if 7500 was ok with the 51's

its funny that on all cam testing I've seen on Honda b-series motors almost the entire power curve moved up or down for example b16-gsr-typeR-skunk
that is from worse to best


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

How about the Schrick Cams has any research been done with those?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Is there a cam that's worthwhile on a K04 equipped car? I was going to go BT but I'd rather spend that on a more worthy candidate. (something Long' mounted 4wd or a Corrado). 

I would like to eek a little more fun outta the jetta though. It just seems that these cars don't really respond to cams like others do, unless you're running a BT setup. I would just like to push the band a little further.


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

:banghead:Anyone have any info on Schrick Cams???


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I'd call Bob directly if you're seriously enquiring.


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

In all honesty why would he tell me they are good when he doesn't sell anything but Cat Cams, I mean I've always heard Schrick make the best cams but they aren't cheap so I wanted to know if they fit my build properly


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

all the dyno graphs are gone !!! why??


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

kamahao112 said:


> all the dyno graphs are gone !!! why??



Looks like the hosting company www.oniva.com where the pics are on is down...hopefully they will be back up


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

^ That is _by far_ the best fuuuuuuu pic ever :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

agreed.


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

l88m22vette said:


> ^ That is _by far_ the best fuuuuuuu pic ever :thumbup:





Vegeta Gti said:


> agreed.


:laugh:

The picstures of the dyno's are back :thumbup:


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## A4robm (Feb 15, 2005)

Anyone know if Bob is still in business? He will not return my phone calls and I have left several messages. :banghead: His website is still up however...


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

I've asked the same question, because Bob never gets back to me


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## onelightmind (Oct 6, 2010)

Same here! MIA since Jan. for me.


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## A4robm (Feb 15, 2005)

Does anyone else feel screwed over by him? :thumbdown:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

If you're referring to qed I never get responses from them.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I think the dyno pics died. Can anyone rehost them?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

schricks are a waste...cat or IE

done is around..can find him on RVAG or audi stuff


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## 1gcrazy (Dec 7, 2007)

Would LOVE to actually see the dyno numbers.... that or delete this ****ing thread. I see more dead pictures on this site then every other site COMBINED.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

1gcrazy said:


> Would LOVE to actually see the dyno numbers.... that or delete this ****ing thread. I see more dead pictures on this site then every other site COMBINED.


this :facepalm:


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

1gcrazy said:


> Would LOVE to actually see the dyno numbers.... that or delete this ****ing thread. I see more dead pictures on this site then every other site COMBINED.


Here you go

Black= stock cams
9001= CAT 3651 intake 108 centerline, stock exhaust
9002= CAT 3651 intake 113 centerline, stock exhaust








black= stock cams
Red= 3651 intake and exhaust at 107/112








Black= stock
Red= Cat 3653 108/108 centers








Black= stock
Red= 3658 105/110








Black= stock
red= 3652 104/114








Black= stock
Red = custom intake and exhaust








ALL TOGETHER.
Black=3658
Red= 3652
Blue=3651
Green=3653
Purple= custom


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i thought i had re-posted this before??

anyway..yeah


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> apparently just an intake cam is a greaatttt upgrade. not sure about the 52 intake only.





haenszel said:


> how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare?





hypothetical said:


> How about, for those of us on the 52s, replacing our exhaust cams with a stock one. I know we would lose a great deal of the top end but it should, based on the other setups bring the mid-range back in. This would be for street guys who bought the 52s but don't rev to or past 8K.





velocity196 said:


> Looking at the 51 intake/stock exhaust combo, how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare?





[email protected] said:


> how would the 52 intake cam and stock exhaust cam fare? Could be possible interference from overlap.



*Has any one done this yet. 3652 intake with stock exhaust cam?
*


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

catcams release a diagram for cams


http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1013658.pdf
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1013651.pdf


profil list with stock cams

http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Full-profile-list-turbo.html


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

styling5030 said:


> catcams release a diagram for cams
> 
> 
> http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1013658.pdf
> ...


Thanks for those links. It's interesting to see how the 3651 compares to stock.


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

Intake 51 cam same rs4 profil?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

styling5030 said:


> Intake 51 cam same rs4 profil?


It looks to me as though the 3651s are inspired by the RennSport RS4 cams, yes. Just as our Martindales are. Oh well. Nothing new under the sun, I guess.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Just to let people know the cams that are known as the QED purple cams are still available from Cat cams and pretty sure most cat cam suppliers can get them?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Added to Camshaft FAQ


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

catcams suspected purple qedpower!

thanks staseys3 for picture


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

so is CATcam part number 3660 the "purple" cam? How is it they're selling another party's re-grind?


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

info on this tread

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...elated-yo-yo-build-thread-27.html#post1799700

what party's?

on catcams ref:
http://www.greenspeed.be/common/cat lp Greenspeed.pdf
suspected hydro:
1003651 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € ok
1003652 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € ok
1003653 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € ok 
1003654 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € ?
1003658 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € ok 
1003660 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € suspected qed purple
1003664 SET 795.00 € 961.95 € ? badger5 cams?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> so is CATcam part number 3660 the "purple" cam? How is it they're selling another party's re-grind?


is bobq alive (serious question) as he's seemingly dissapeared?
Is he still around just not on the www anymore? anyone actually know if he's ok?

:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> so is CATcam part number 3660 the "purple" cam? How is it they're selling another party's re-grind?


Bob q was not a cam designer. He just fished around in the cat catalog until he found something that worked, then gave it a random name so he would be the only one selling it.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

All I did was picked Catcams brains and fired a few emails off in search of this grind, because as previously mentioned bob q seems to have completely disappeared so not able to get them anymore? I think cat were happy to sell them as they were in stock and probably sat on the shelf for some time?

Once I had the part number I then just ordered said cams by their part number through a catcams supplier


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I still want to know what happened to Bob Q :sly:


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

news ref discorevy:

1013665
profil similar 3658, and work with VVT!

http://www.dli-teknik.se/index.php?section=products&subsection=3&cat=10&s1cat=52&s2cat=231&lang=en


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

styling5030 said:


> news ref discorevy:
> 
> 1013665
> profil similar 3658, and work with VVT!
> ...


http://www.dli-teknik.se/index.php?...=10&s1cat=52&s2cat=231&showprod=11027&lang=en

Makes sense being that in the description it references cat cams



> If your engine have OE pistons and VVT chain tensioner (adjustable cam times) there is a risk that the middle intake valves will hit the pistons. If you have this combination this kit have less lift @ TDC on those valves.
> 
> For more info: www.catcams.be


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

on fb catcams uk 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/120128378000662/



> Hi, If you using VVT then we have an inlet profile that's very similar to the 3658 profile but the center valve has a later opening point to gain the required piston/valve clearance.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

groggory said:


> http://www.dli-teknik.se/index.php?...=10&s1cat=52&s2cat=231&showprod=11027&lang=en
> 
> Makes sense being that in the description it references cat cams


$1,033 USD.... Ouch


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bob q was not a cam designer. He just fished around in the cat catalog until he found something that worked, then gave it a random name so he would be the only one selling it.


Quick Question Pete. Your cams.. and VVT. OK for this or not? All 2001 and later 1.8t in europe run vvt

Its kinda surprising that catcams when asked about vvt then mention a slightly different grind but nothing is mentioned on their website specs...


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## filotuner (Jun 20, 2011)

would you guys use the CatCams gold valve spring set for your cams? Is PagParts the only one selling it?


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

styling5030 said:


> on fb catcams uk
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/120128378000662/


 That's me on FB asking Mat, . They arrived today and I have some snaps here, Obviously have not tried them yet.

Inlet cam specs VVT safe apparently









Side by side with a std 1.8t cam


















This is the "matching" exhaust cam as recommended by CAT, I have to say the spec is so similar to the 3665 designated cam anyway, i'd bet they are the actual same part, but designated differently depending on the inlet pairing









Exhaust cam side by side


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

so far seeing 340 BHP and 280 torques on these with an ATP gtrs eliminator. High EGTs even with WMI so not much more to come.

Interested in altering the cam pulley some to see if any gains can be had there. Mapping the vvt to hold later deffo had an effect.

Anyone have any recommendations as to how much is enough on the cam pulley timing. ? Or is it really vehicle specific as everything else is


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## filotuner (Jun 20, 2011)

when changing the cams, do we need to change the lifters too? i'm still using the stock hydraulic lifters.


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm on new oe lifters, safe for 9k + revlimit. My turbo and cams run out before that so no problems at the 7800 rev limit i have .


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## filotuner (Jun 20, 2011)

what brand of OE lifters did you use? INA or Genuine Audi/VW?


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

Oem quality replacement s febi bilstien iirc.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

*timing issues*

Ok so my cams have been in for a while and I occasionally get a set point not reached code despite a new VVT unit being fitted.

Also of note was the car barely wanted any timing while setting up the base tune. Both of these have led me to track some niggles and issues.

I have no basis for comparison except for a few of the forum guys checking their own std cammed cars . They seem to vary 




now mine is like this 



add this to the vvt and lack of ignition timing...

Any hints or tips on setting these up more accurately. I have an adjustable pulley fitted, but have locked the gears with the extra screw in OE position. Should I perhaps remove this screw and star turning, or would the belt pulley adjust ability fix it, or would that compromise timing because the cam to cam would be the same. I did think about creating a separate thread but felt it was too related to these cams and related issues to split the info up


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

springs are needed


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

BYZAN said:


> Ok so my cams have been in for a while and I occasionally get a set point not reached code despite a new VVT unit being fitted.
> 
> now mine is like this
> 
> ...


-11˚ out of alignment with the crank is on the high side, but isn't so bad that the ECU would make any corrective measures. But are you asking for how to get that value perhaps closer to zero?


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> -11˚ out of alignment with the crank is on the high side, but isn't so bad that the ECU would make any corrective measures. But are you asking for how to get that value perhaps closer to zero?


Yes. I am wondering if this mis alignment is why bill cannot add timing to the tune.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

bump:beer::wave:


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Vegeta Gti said:


> bump:beer::wave:


Fukcer! :wave::heart:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

<3

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

why is this not stickied at the top of the 1.8t forum?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

NaSMK4 said:


> why is this not stickied at the top of the 1.8t forum?


We have a nice FAQ that has a link to this thread already.


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