# Exhaust manifold



## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

I was in the middle of installing an exaust manifold made by XS POWERS 
http://www.xs-power.com/audi-turbo-manifolds-1.htm 
Which states it's a bolt on upgrade. It took me about 1.5 hours to remove the stock manifold just to find out the flange is right in front of port 3 from the driver side to passengers side. However the original one is In front of port 2. I have been sending emails to the vender but no response, now for my question, I was really looking forward to adding an aftermarket manifold to squeeze out as much h.p. as possible what other manifold is recommended for this application. This is for a 2001 Audi tt base model.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Get a Frankenturbo manifold, PM [email protected] :thumbup: 

What do you have done to the car?


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

*Work done*

I just bought the car about a month 1/2 ago I have installed the following: 

pss9, defcon competition kit, NEUSPEED f/r adjustable anti sway bar, apr stage 1 ecu, apr stage 1 clutch, injen cold air intake race series, air intake gasket plus (ecs), light weight pulleys, new serpentine belt and tensioner, new timing belt and tensioner, new water pump, led spyder taillights


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

You really won't be getting any hp gains with replacing your turbo manifold unless you go BT. Bigger manifolds + bigger turbos = hp gains. The stock turbos can only suck in so much air. 

IMO, save the money towards a reliable BT setup if you want real hp gains


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> You really won't be getting any hp gains with replacing your turbo manifold unless you go BT. Bigger manifolds + bigger turbos = hp gains. The stock turbos can only suck in so much air.
> 
> IMO, save the money towards a reliable BT setup if you want real hp gains


 Especially since he went with lightweight pulleys already he should go BT before he's done with his mods. This means the APR stage 1 tune is pointless. Should have gotten one of those tunes you can tweak on your own because those would be best for a BT since all BTs vary so much on such a small engine. 


Lots of money to be dumping into your car a month and a half after you bought it. Are you sure YOU bought it? Maybe you stole it or daddy's rich?:laugh:


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> You really won't be getting any hp gains with replacing your turbo manifold unless you go BT. Bigger manifolds + bigger turbos = hp gains. The stock turbos can only suck in so much air.
> 
> IMO, save the money towards a reliable BT setup if you want real hp gains


 I'm 35 and I own my own business. Don't need daddy for just another hobby.


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

The reply was ment for chuck


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

Subverter said:


> I'm 35 and I own my own business. Don't need daddy for just another hobby.


 So you STOLE it then? :laugh: 


Just teasing:beer:


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

Figured that much......:laugh:


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

Chuckmeister87 said:


> Especially since he went with lightweight pulleys already he should go BT before he's done with his mods. This means the APR stage 1 tune is pointless. Should have gotten one of those tunes you can tweak on your own because those would be best for a BT since all BTs vary so much on such a small engine.
> 
> 
> Lots of money to be dumping into your car a month and a half after you bought it. Are you sure YOU bought it? Maybe you stole it or daddy's rich?:laugh:


 I was under the impression you can update APR SOFTWARE I bought the interface unit to be able to update ecu to any software they have????


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

They sent you the wrong manifold. Send it back and get a refund. These manifolds are prone to cracking on our cars. 

For the turbo you have now, the stock manifold flows well enought. If you have the desire, get yourself a pencil grinder and work over the manifold by removing material that restricts flow. Be careful not to remove too much or go too thin on the walls. Matching the ports up is the easiest. 

But really, not much gain by doing this other than possible lowering of exhaust gas temps. 

Bang for the buck would be a Frankenturbo replacement for your stock turbo and a 3" downpipe. You can run the turbo with the mild tune you have now and upgrade the tune later for some decent power. 

Better yet, just get the full Frankenturbo kit and a downpipe. Your refund will go a long way to funding this approach. 

http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/F4T.html


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> You really won't be getting any hp gains with replacing your turbo manifold unless you go BT. Bigger manifolds + bigger turbos = hp gains. The stock turbos can only suck in so much air.
> 
> IMO, save the money towards a reliable BT setup if you want real hp gains


  What are guys talking about? The OEM manifold is one of the most restrictive point in the system. Have any of you looked at the collector? It's a mess to say the least :screwy: 

Upgrading to anything that flows better or even porting the OEM unit will net some nice gains up top where the stock turbo needs all the help it can get to breath. Saying that the turbo can only suck so much air goes is correct, but when you add restrictions (like the OEM manifold, TIP, Downpipe etc.) to that limited amount that it can flow, what do you think happens? 

I get my totally stock turbo to flow 245 G/S; why? Because I do things to remove external restrictions to both cold and hot sides and there is plenty of room for improvement. Something to think about, that will really put restrictions into perspective; I did an experiment where I installed a boost gauge right after the turbo (metal hard pipe) and recorded a minimum of 6 psi of pressure drop at the intake manifold. 6+ psi may not mean much to some of you but that is over 70 ft/lbs of torque if you have enough fuel to make use of it. From that experiment, I was able to get the stock turbo to hold 25 psi at redline by deleting one of the SMIC which is obviously a restriction (I have water injection and E85 to make up for the increase in air charge temperature from the delete, so don't go removing a SMIC because Max did it). 

The same principle goes for the exhaust side, any restriction removed will net some good benefits. Why would removing downstream restriction with a 3" downpipe or catback be any different than doing the same thing at the manifold? It's still part of the exhaust system. There is a lot of power potential from optimizing things around the stock turbo without the headaches and price tag of a BT, and I laugh every time someone first answer to making power is go BT. DougLoBue just Dynoed his E85 BT monster the other day and I make as much, if not more WTQ with the stock K04 (we all know that TQ is what moves things). 

To Chuckmeister, we were all where you are right now and had to start learning somewhere... but do less commenting and more reading especially when you're not sure of what you are talking about. :wave:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> Get a Frankenturbo manifold, PM [email protected] :thumbup:


 Nothing against Doug, he has a killer turbo upgrade that I plan on running some day (I keep saying that but I have to find the limit of the stock turbo first). However, at this point at least, in terms of exhaust manifold it's JBS or stay home :beer:


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Nothing against Doug, he has a killer turbo upgrade that I plan on running some day (I keep saying that but I have to find the limit of the stock turbo first). However, at this point at least, in terms of exhaust manifold it's JBS or stay home :beer:


 Will not your stock turbo just take a dump prematurely after so much abuse? And by abuse I mean performing past what it was designed for, especially concerning longevity.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Nothing against Doug, he has a killer turbo upgrade that I plan on running some day (I keep saying that but I have to find the limit of the stock turbo first). However, at this point at least, in terms of exhaust manifold it's JBS or stay home :beer:


 Agreed, my JBS came in last week. Hefty little thing. It will be a while before it goes on. 

I've seen the numbers from someone (INA?) where the stock 180 manifold flows much better than the 225 manifold. I can't even get my finger into the runners of the 225 mani.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Wow that looks beautiful 
I always feel stupid after I read marcus's posts:laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> Will not your stock turbo just take a dump prematurely after so much abuse? And by abuse I mean performing past what it was designed for, especially concerning longevity.


 So did everybody living in that "status quo" box believed.... but so far after two racing seasons and over two years of daily driving at 30+ psi it has taken the abuse and loves it! Who can tell the limit and longevity of a turbo if they never really pushed it? Well, as the oddball that does try things before basing his judgment, I'd say that it can take a lot more than the consensus is saying as long as things are in control (no compressor surge and out of line EGTs) :beer:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Wow! That JBS mani looks bad ass! Crazy expensive though! Over $700 before its even shipped..:sly: 
I bet it's a big upgrade from the ko4 mani though. Especially with the f23.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


> Wow! That JBS mani looks bad ass! Crazy expensive though! Over $700 before its even shipped..:sly:
> I bet it's a big upgrade from the ko4 mani though. Especially with the f23.


 Not really, we don't pay that crazy European tax!


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Wow! That JBS mani looks bad ass! Crazy expensive though! Over $700 before its even shipped..:sly:
> I bet it's a big upgrade from the ko4 mani though. Especially with the f23.


 $600 US; there is no VAT (tax) for overseas sales. You gotta talk to them about shipment. JBS assumes you want 2 day shipping service, regardless where it's being shipped. Shipping first quoted was around $250!! 

Given the materials used (high nickel and chrome content), and being investment casted, this manifold should outlast the OEM manifold. But like everything else on our cars, theory and real world rarely work out to be the same thing. 

So Op, hopefully you are returning your XS-power manifold. Search around for a quality cast manifold or DIY a clean-up of your OEM for now. A 3" downpipe would be a better investment than the XS-power manifold if your watching your pennies. 

Later think about a package upgrade like the Frankenturbo kit if you really want a fun daily driver. Reliability is just as important as adding a few HP.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

$600 is not a bad investment to me considering what this represents (real HP past 5k). My last Dyno I made 318 whp on my K04 and this seriously opens the door for 350+ whp when added to what I'll be releasing by going to air to water intercooling. I don't know how you do it Ed but I wouldn't be able to sleep until that bad boy is installed (AKA I want to see some real life before and after data ).


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> $600 is not a bad investment to me considering what this represents (real HP past 5k). My last Dyno I made 318 whp on my K04 and this seriously opens the door for 350+ whp when added to what I'll be releasing by going to air to water intercooling. I don't know how you do it Ed but I wouldn't be able to sleep until that bad boy is installed (AKA I want to see some real life before and after data ).


 Sigh...It's a long story I'll tell someday... I've been working with my builder/tuner for the last 9 months to get my project done (F23/2.1L stroker). All changes are locked down until we get this pig fired up and the initial tuning done. I'm still 3-4 weeks away from putting it on the dyno for initial tweaking. 

I'm thinking 350whp set up as an agressive daily driver. Gonna tune first without WMI, then move up to a mild WMI system tune. (already installed) 

Not looking to run a "steam engine" tune/Water Injection like you have.


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

What does the power band look like at 300+ on the k04? I mean, we all love to hear big numbers but a boost spike doesn't transfer to the ground or quick times. 

My dyno 2 years ago before boring over the block, pistons, light weight springs and lifters, and with zero timing adjusted (zero knock during this dyno and only ran to 7k rpm) 

Just not sure dumping any kind of big money into a stock turbo setup is worth it.


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What are guys talking about? The OEM manifold is one of the most restrictive point in the system. Have any of you looked at the collector? It's a mess to say the least :screwy:
> 
> Upgrading to anything that flows better or even porting the OEM unit will net some nice gains up top where the stock turbo needs all the help it can get to breath. Saying that the turbo can only suck so much air goes is correct, but when you add restrictions (like the OEM manifold, TIP, Downpipe etc.) to that limited amount that it can flow, what do you think happens?
> 
> ...


 That was my thinking, I have done research prior to this build and that was my understanding. Why the manifold? Real simple y change the turbo back exhaust system and not the header? A system is only as good as its weakest link, in this case you are just creating a bottle neck at the beginning of the exaust system by not changing the header to a less restrictive one. Do it right from the start is my motto.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jwalker1.8 said:


> What does the power band look like at 300+ on the k04? I mean, we all love to hear big numbers but a boost spike doesn't transfer to the ground or quick times.
> 
> Just not sure dumping any kind of big money into a stock turbo setup is worth it


 Well, powerband is subjective! 

It all depends on the intended use of the car. A car that has the meat of its power, say from 3k to 5.5k, has the same usable powerband as another car that makes power from 4.5k to 7k (2.5k of usable power). The difference in effectiveness between these two examples would be where in the powerband you spend the bulk of your intended use of the car. 

I will give some concrete examples so everyone can follow, our buddy DougLoBue has a beast of a TT with a big turbo, he makes more horsepower than I do and we have around the same torque. However, his power comes in way later than mine does and at the track my car is a lot more efficient because he has to wait for power coming out of a turn; and by the time his power gets there, it's already time to brake again. Now if we were to take both cars to a highway, with limitless distance to open the cars up, although I would walk away from him at first, he would eventually catch up and put my small frame turbo in its place. So two different kind of animals that would shine in different elements. On a daily car, the setup with early torque and instant power is a lot more rewarding (I'm sure Doug can attest to that), the same goes for the track where taking turns are involved. If you are building a drag car, than you definitely want a powerband like the one you posted. 

Now that I hope we cleared the fact that having an early or late powerband has its advantages and drawbacks, we can move to the second part of your statement. You claim that "dumping any kind of of big money into a stock turbo is not worth it" and I feel the same way about 95% of the BT builds in the 1.8t world. A bunch of people with limited knowledge of what they need and can enjoy are dumping bucket of cash into a setup that is not suited for their intended use of the car :screwy:. Most of these cases could have spent a fraction of a BT budget and have something that they enjoy a lot more if they decided to seriously build a stock frame turbo. 

PS: you lost me on the part about boost spikes and not being able to transfer that into the ground or quick times, so I won't comment on that especially when were are talking about AWD cars with superior traction here. 

Here is a dynojet graph of my car on a highly slipping clutch (slipping so bad that torque curve looked like an earthquake graph). I am posting it although dynojets are retarded since they don't show they don't plot vs rpm but speed (I love load bearing dynos like Dyno Dynamics).


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## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> To Chuckmeister, we were all where you are right now and had to start learning somewhere... but do less commenting and more reading especially when you're not sure of what you are talking about. :wave:


 Knowledge goes farther without the attitude. People make their posts, others respond, everyone learns something. A chill board is a good board. 

My $0.02. eace:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

JWalker1.8, I also found an old dyno of the car right after converting to E85. This dyno graph is no longer relevant because the car is light years ahead of where it was back then in terms of power and development but the graph can be used to analyze powerband on a K04. 

You can see I make 300 AWTQ from 3k to 5k so the entire midrange is loaded (for those that don't know "torque is what win races, HP is what sell new cars"). The HP as you'd expect from the stock turbo is dropping past 5500 rpm but who cares if you are still making substantial power (I anticipate being able to hold way over 300 AWHP to redline with the car at it's current state. :beer:


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Well, powerband is subjective!
> 
> It all depends on the intended use of the car. A car that has the meat of its power, say from 3k to 5.5k, has the same usable powerband as another car that makes power from 4.5k to 7k (2.5k of usable power). The difference in effectiveness between these two examples would be where in the powerband you spend the bulk of your intended use of the car.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for that info... I'm new to this forum, and I'm finidng it quite helpful ... I have a question for Marcus, I believe we are pretty much on the same wave length... What type of set up do you have or what do you recomend I'm not trying to get crazy top end speed for its useless in the street, but I'm looking to build something fast for short track lets per say .. Something that will have that go or power when needed. 

This is my first build. I never got into tuning cars I was more of an audio type.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ttwsm said:


> Knowledge goes farther without the attitude. People make their posts, others respond, everyone learns something. A chill board is a good board.
> 
> My $0.02. eace:


 Agree but a chill board without the knowledge base is scary! :facepalm: 

Most people know, including Chuckmeister that I'm the coolest guy and always looking to help and inform. It hurts when you hear the way other boards, like the technical 1.8t forum or the guys at QW view our Mk1 board due to the scarcity of valuable knowledge and info around here. I post a lot in the technical forums and I catch regulars here all the time going there for real info and it should not be like that. The more experienced members, while still helping, should keep the noobs in check IMO or the boards goes to crap IMO!


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Well, powerband is subjective!
> 
> It all depends on the intended use of the car. A car that has the meat of its power, say from 3k to 5.5k, has the same usable powerband as another car that makes power from 4.5k to 7k (2.5k of usable power). The difference in effectiveness between these two examples would be where in the powerband you spend the bulk of your intended use of the car.
> 
> ...


 Not trying to be a dick or anything like that..honestly to each their own...but after looking at a ton of k04 dynos I just decided a mid sized turbo suits me personally better. 

The one thing I have NEVER personally seen was a K04 dyno all the way out to 7500rpm+ I am curious where the k04 is truly "done"


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

Also, just to stay somewhat on topic...my dyno was done on the cheap-o, most frown upon, "most restrictive" t3 manifold for the 1.8t...the dreaded cast ATP manifold.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jwalker1.8 said:


> Not trying to be a dick or anything like that..honestly to each their own...but after looking at a ton of k04 dynos I just decided a mid sized turbo suits me personally better.
> 
> The one thing I have NEVER personally seen was a K04 dyno all the way out to 7500rpm+ I am curious where the k04 is truly "done"


 I totally understand and agree 100% with you ... to each their own. We are just in opposite side of a spectrum. What you view as Ok is way too laggy for the kind of use I have for my car and where it's Ok for me if the power drops, it's not acceptable for you. I build my car to be competitive at a national level in SCCA solo and ProSolo, so there is a real purpose to it and a real gauge of what's usable. But I can tell you that much... when you are chasing tenths of a second, having to wait for power past 3k is a deal breaker :thumbdown: 

To answer your question, the K04 really start running out of breath past 6k. I have not experimented with all the restrictions removed around the turbo so I really do not have an accurate sense of what the turbo itself can and can't do. I have the entire air charge pipe virtually free of restrictions with an air to water interccoler that I just built - the exhaust side is free up to the manifold (I have yet to get my JBS upgrade) - the Turbo inlet track can see some improvement too although my system now consist of a silicone uprated TIP a 3" ID S4 MAF and the notorious 42 DD V-stack intake. Until all of that stuff is out of the way all everyone can do is speculate on the true limit of the K04. 

(a bit off topic since the focus is on effect of exhaust manifold upgrades) 

I have to get the badger5 TIP to really optimize the turbo intake, since we have tons of newcomers I think it's appropriate for me to share the best TIP available for our cars


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jwalker1.8 said:


> Also, just to stay somewhat on topic...my dyno was done on the cheap-o, most frown upon, "most restrictive" t3 manifold for the 1.8t...the dreaded cast ATP manifold.


 :laugh: I heard that their manifold is a cardinal sin ...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Subverter said:


> Thanks for that info... I'm new to this forum, and I'm finidng it quite helpful ... I have a question for Marcus, I believe we are pretty much on the same wave length... What type of set up do you have or what do you recomend I'm not trying to get crazy top end speed for its useless in the street, but I'm looking to build something fast for short track lets per say .. Something that will have that go or power when needed.
> 
> This is my first build. I never got into tuning cars I was more of an audio type.


 My set up is quite involved to say the least and would be hard for someone without tons of experience or budget to replicate. I run on E85, a real intricate water only (h20) injection system with 4 directly ported manifold nozzles, pre-throttle body nozzle and now pre-turbo injection. I run 35 psi in kill trim and 30 psi daily with two manual boost controllers and external springs to increase wastegate actuator threshold to 20+ psi. 

As far as what I recommend for a more sane setup that will deliver: 
* 
- A good water injection system (not talking about china edition entry level single nozzle map based kits with shurflo pumps) 

- A good manifold-back set up (JBS and 42DD are your friends) 

- A good intake ( 42DD with Badger5 TIP) 

- Tyrolsport SMIC upgrade(s) 

- 034 phenolic intake manifold spacer 

- VCDS cable and registered software (Unisetting free download is also a must to dial some stuff) 

- A good MBC or EBC 

- A software upgrade (flash or Maestro if you have the budget) 

- FrankenTurbo F23 upgrade (obviously if the budget allows it) 
*


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

PLAYED TT said:


> Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?


 Ok James, from my experiments with my 20mm OEM 225 version that are rumored to be stronger than the 19mm found in some variants (honestly I personally doubt it because the failure and weak point seen on mine and all the bent rods I've seen, is not where the 20mm are beefier) 

With that said, pushing power gradually over time and monitoring all the vitals, I finally turned two of mine into bananas at around 360 AWTQ spiking really early. So in reality they are much stronger than most believed but that is a loaded statement because that's assuming a good tune with good AFR, knock and heat management. Most knuckle heads bending or snapping rods out there are doing it because of something screwy in the tune that would have the same effect on upgraded rods. Obviously everyone find it simple to just put the blame on the OEM rods but in reality they can take quite a bit of torque (with everything else in check) before they show their weakness. My feeling is that most DD stock frames turbo/hybrids will not push enough torque to hurt them as long as everything else is kosher. 

*This is what finally happened to mine with a good tune around 360 AWTQ right after switching to E85. Most people will never push enough boost, run enough timing to destroy those unless there is another variable that put extra stress on them. Please use that info wisely! *


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Very well explained thank you


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> My set up is quite involved to say the least and would be hard for someone without tons of experience or budget to replicate. I run on E85, a real intricate water only (h20) injection system with 4 directly ported manifold nozzles, pre-throttle body nozzle and now pre-turbo injection. I run 35 psi in kill trim and 30 psi daily with two manual boost controllers and external springs to increase wastegate actuator threshold to 20+ psi.
> 
> As far as what I recommend for a more sane setup that will deliver:
> *
> ...


 
I swear that you’ve peeked under the hood of my build with this list Since mine is going to be just a daily driver, I’m sticking with a FMIC for now and see how it goes. Water/Meth injection will be minimized just to keep in simple. Otherwise, it’s nearly the same list, just add a 2.1L into the mix. 

My philosophy is somewhat the same as yours. I asked myself “How much time do I spend above 5K on the street?” “Where do I want my power?” And the most important question: “What build is going to be the most fun to drive?” I think we sometimes suck the joy out of driving one of these great cars by doggedly pursuing “big numbers”. Balance and reliability should be part of the equation also. 

My best test will be how does the car react to my input and does it meet my idea of how my sports car should perform. 

My only concern at this time is will the F23 fall off too quickly due to the extra 20% effective volume of the new engine….let’s find out.


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> I swear that you’ve peeked under the hood of my build with this list Since mine is going to be just a daily driver, I’m sticking with a FMIC for now and see how it goes. Water/Meth injection will be minimized just to keep in simple. Otherwise, it’s nearly the same list, just add a 2.1L into the mix.
> 
> My philosophy is somewhat the same as yours. I asked myself “How much time do I spend above 5K on the street?” “Where do I want my power?” And the most important question: “What build is going to be the most fun to drive?” I think we sometimes suck the joy out of driving one of these great cars by doggedly pursuing “big numbers”. Balance and reliability should be part of the equation also.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup::thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.


 Is the op's car quattro or fwd?


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Two companies with similar K04 Performance Turbo Exhaust cast manifold : 

JBS : 350 BP excl.. VAT = 565.999 USD 

http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/product/3981/cast-18t-k04-oem-upgrade 

HG-Motorsport 
Cost : 499,00 EUR incl. 19% VAT = 534.481 USD excl shipping 










http://www.hg-motorsport.de/shop/pr...G-1-8-20V--Turbo-K04-High-Flow-Quermotor.html


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

^ 
Interesting find. Looks like HG-Motorsport is using the same casting company as JBS. 

OP, 

Sorry we hijacked your thread, but as both Doug and I stated, XS-Power sent you the wrong manifold. 

I just wanted to give you the benefit of my research and knowledge on the use of these types of manifolds. The question I should have asked is how long do you want the manifold to last? 

It's almost impossible to build a tubular manifold at this price that is going to last a long while. As with any manufacturing process, some of these manifolds will last a lot longer than the average, and some won't last at all. I even question the quality of the steel. I'm sure it's technically 321 stainless, but it can't be a low carbon stainless. You can't buy quality 321 tubing for that price, even in China. 

Our cars seem to put a lot of strain on the exhaust manifolds, so through a lot of heat cycles, tubular manifolds, on the average, fail quicker. Cast manifolds still have a wide range of materials and casting quality issues, but seem to hold up better, again, on the average. 

I've popped the flange welds on my 42DD downpipe twice now and finally had a heavier duty flange made to cope with the stress of bigger eliminator turbo. (My new F23 turbo is much lighter and shouldn't be a problem.) 

The XS-power manifold may be just the ticket for you, if you are looking to just play with it as a hobby. As for long term reliability, you might want to re-consider.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.


 So to stay completely relevant to the OP, JBS also has (arguably) the best K03 layout exhaust manifold at this point in time.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

It'd be sweet to use the top of the JBS for an external wastegate opcorn:


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> It'd be sweet to use the top of the JBS for an external wastegate opcorn:


 How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate :heart: 

just to spice things up for Our beloved K04 crowd: 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-8T-Spiderw...nzulassung&hash=item3a6b451964#ht_1437wt_1051 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Burstflow-St...e65b0f4&clk_rvr_id=293843195111#ht_2111wt_791


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ModsTTand said:


> How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate :heart:
> 
> just to spice things up for Our beloved K04 crowd:
> 
> ...


 If we are going down the "cracking" manifold list, we may as well add the 034 one to complete your list


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> If we are going down the "cracking" manifold list, we may as well add the 034 one to complete your list


 :laugh:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

ModsTTand said:


> Two companies with similar K04 Performance Turbo Exhaust cast manifold :
> 
> JBS : 350 BP excl.. VAT = 565.999 USD
> 
> ...


 ...that is disgusting. 
JBS's unit has not even been on the market for that long and allready it is ripped off. How people think this is ok baffles me daily . Screw ingenuity....I am going to start copying everyone's ****. :thumbdown: 
This industry has officially seen the last of days.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Issam Abed said:


> ...that is disgusting.
> JBS's unit has not even been on the market for that long and allready it is ripped off. How people think this is ok baffles me daily . Screw ingenuity....I am going to start copying everyone's ****. :thumbdown:
> This industry has officially seen the last of days.


 I totally agree! That is why I didn't mention the clone company when I posted what I believe is the best K03/k04 exhaust manifold available in the market right now, although I was aware of the existence of the fake. I was reading the heated debate about them in the UK forums and I guess although JBS created the design and did all the R&D, they outsourced their manufacturing and that shameless company just went straight to that manufacturer. It is sad and I don't see why anyone who understand what it takes to come up with something new for a platform would ever buy that product which is not even that much cheaper anyway... but again I've experienced first hand more f**** up things in the 1.8t world. Some companies would do anything for a dollar.


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Its my fault not mentioning this : WWW.HG-motorsport.de offered their product before JBS finished R&D/release their product ,maybe its shared development! 

HPA is not a clone-company of HGP ! 

Revo Started by Cloning APR ECU Maps! 

Branding costs,Cloning/replicating is cheap, Research&Developing is something even better. 

my Advice to OP : please before ordering any part consider picking one : price/durability?


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

I can tell you JBS did the hard lift on the deveopment of this product. I was in contact with them as far back as Feb. 2010 on this product. I worked with them to make sure the ATP 2871 eliminator would fit and clear the new design. Even then, JBS design work goes farther back into the 2009 time period. 

But, it's possible that this is a licensed agreement between the two companies. Maybe JBS needed a partner to cover the cost of the initial setup and minimum first run volume. Or maybe it is a knock off and the legal battle will begin. Unless JBS wants to bring the issue to the public's attention, we'll never really know for sure. 

But I still tip to JBS for taking the business risk for putting out a high quality item like this and gambling on such a narrow market. Money sent, product received.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Looks like a JBS is in my future. But I will need a tune first. And Adj LCAs (Max), and a rear sway... Then I'll be done (yeah right).


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Looks like a JBS is in my future. But I will need a tune first. And Adj LCAs (Max), and a rear sway... Then I'll be done (yeah right).


 F32/JBS K04/42DD 3"inch downpipe...........idea Brewing !:beer:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

ModsTTand said:


> F23/JBS K04/42DD 3"inch downpipe *+E85/RODS*,.........idea Brewing !:beer:


 There, fixed..:laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


> There, fixed..:laugh:


 Hey ... can you top killing people's dreams? :laugh:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Hey ... can you top killing people's dreams? :laugh:


 Hey if your gonna dream, might as well make it a wet one


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

LOL :laugh: 



ModsTTand said:


> How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate :heart:


 I already have a PPT manifold, but its a T3


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Some companies would do anything for a dollar.


 ...and some customers will do anything to give them that dollar. Ive watched companies grow from the shadows of a 1 bay garage to a globally known facility by ripping off other products and branding as there own. 
In the end this sucks and I guess some of just have to "deal with it". 

JBS for sure was the first company to make that manifold. I know this first hand...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Sam -- 

I have to think that other one is just a private-label spinoff from the JBS. Besides, why can't you get 034 to resurrect their cast one? It's probably a better performer than either of these other two...


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

@warranty225cpe : thats a proper FIX , lol  

@l88m22vette: :laugh: 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Hey ... can you top killing people's dreams? :laugh:


 You already proven dream projects come true


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Sam --
> 
> I have to think that other one is just a private-label spinoff from the JBS.


 Unless you mean knock off then sure. 


[email protected] said:


> Besides, why can't you get 034 to resurrect their cast one?  It's probably a better performer than either of these other two...


 It probably is but 034 has put the nail in the coffin with respect to that manifold. I do have an inconnel prototype that was made some time ago but IMHO the demand for a decent K04 high flow manifold isnt there to justify the cost to put it into production. 

Most 225/180 guys look at it this way .... 
High flow K04 manifold ($500) + K04 hybrid ( $1000) + Software ( $600) = approx $2000. They are allready half way there to a decent turbo kit based on a billet compressor wheel turbocharger that isn't modeled off a 15+ year old CHRA. 

of course feedback / input is always welcome.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

That's still cheaper then going BT and could be an intermediate step. Also if my ko4 would blow I would more than likely go in that direction.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I think it's unfortunate that the majority of the aftermarket turbo stuff for our cars is for BT applications. It's pretty obvious that there is a market for a small/Ko4 set up. The more we discuss it, the more I think people understand that day to day lag free turbos can be perfect for a daily. Aw hell, I'm doing it. That $2000 for a turbo setup might be 1/2 way to lots of power, but it's spot on for "just right" in my book. When I hit my goal of a daily driver with 300hp/300tq, all will be right with the worldeace:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

300hp is perfect for a daily IMO


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

PLAYED TT said:


> 300hp is perfect for a daily IMO


 And once I get my e85 tune worked out I'm sure I'll be north of that mark


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Issam Abed said:


> It probably is but 034 has put the nail in the coffin with respect to that manifold. I do have an inconnel prototype that was made some time ago but IMHO the demand for a decent K04 high flow manifold isnt there to justify the cost to put it into production.


 I agree with Doug that the 034 manifold most likely has the better potential of the two designs. 

It's too bad 034 has discontinued work on this mani. It does explain why they have gone radio silent on the issue after many attempts to get the straight scoop out of them. However, they did put one on their Silverlight project (see Eurotuner magazine, search for Project Silverlight) and stated they were going to put out a kit using the K04 manifold and an ATP 2871 eliminator. (Yes or no??) 

Here is what is so frustrating about all of this. If a product doesn't work out, then manufacturers/retailers should just say so. Most customers would respect a company a lot more if they would just buck up and say it doesn't work or it’s just not economically feasible, so we're dropping it. It's the waiting with no answer that kills customer relations. 

Yeah, there are a few that would bitch, but for the most part, honesty will win most customers over in the long run, even if they don’t like the initial message. Doug's business model is a great example of this. 

Sorry OP, the need and the development a decent manifold for the 225 transverse has been an issue for a long time in the community. Your post has brought this to the surface.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Sam -- I know my hopes for seeing a return of that manifold are slim. Your explanation of why makes sense. But I can also relate to the frustrating history of that 034: it got tripped up by an easy-to-remedy specification error. And for a niche product like that to survive, it couldn't stumble out of the gate like it did. 

Anyway, I'm just putting it out there (as a guy who sells a competing product): that manifold has a place in the market. Keep an eye out as spartiati and I soon begin to Maestro tune a stock motor using that thing. You'll see.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Atomic Ed said:


> Sorry OP, the need and the development a decent manifold for the 225 transverse has been an issue for a long time in the community. Your post has brought this to the surface.


 Its always been a known issue, its just now there are upgraded k04s out there to make it worth the effort, maybe 034 could sell the design/license to someone who wants to make them...


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

By the way Sam, at least you made a decision and stated it, thanks. 

The decision to move forward to develop a quality manifold is even tougher now (or maybe easier, depending on how you look at it) with the JBS on the market. 

We discussed it before, better casting material and thicker walls would do the trick on the 034 manifold. Sand casting in itself is not a bad thing if done right.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

...ok well here is the inside scoop. 
INA started on this project over 3 years ago. Initially the manifold was being worked on by TiAL for the launch of the SA405L & SA405T kits for the 1.8T . That project swiftly saw a nail in the coffin with turbine housings becoming deligated more and more towards the TiAL S605 / R770 turbo kits for the S4 (in short TiAL didnt think the B5 S4 kits would become such a huge success). 

After beating around the bush for a while trying to find a solution , 034 was contacted and was commissioned to make the high flow manifold K04 manifolds using Sam Du's car as a template to launch the kit. We started with a brand new OEM manifold , had it extrude honed and then replicated to have thicker runners. In the end the final product that was released to the community by 034 was not up to the standards of competing shops and they made this known publically ([email protected] thread on SCN) without contacting us first which was unprofessional. I had already been through a similar situation with us being the center of the spot light on a failed product by a supplier that we did not manufacture and that left a very sour taste in my mouth so as soon as I saw the K04 manifolds were failing I pulled the plug and went back to the inconnel units we originally wanted to launch. 

Unfortunately casting parts is a whole different ball game to welding up manifolds and they are some realities people need to face. If you see an inconnel manifold that is being sold for under $800-$1000 USD then it is not being casted in Europe or North America and if it is , then it was done in extremely large quantities . The JBS unit is nice and I am sure it is being casted somewhere in Europe, but more than likely you will be seeing 3-4 versions of it very shortly which is a fear for many of us. The UPFRONT COST to cast a proper K04 manifold is $$$ and unless the casting foundry is close to you , you have 0 control over who has access to your molds / designs / patterns , etc 

Like I said , we do have an inconnel version of the K04 manifold which flows around 30% more than stock with the structural integrity to prove it but other than that , it is just a really expensive paper weight until we explore this avenue again. 
Hope that explains this all.:beer:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

That made it very clear thanks!


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks Sam, 

I agree totally with your logic. Finding a casting foundry that's inexpensive and can produce consistant quality is a crap shoot. 

My best friend works as a senior quality weld and steel inspector in China. He contracts to several large corporations to do "eyes on" inspection for critical parts being made there. I asked him if there was a foundry he would recommend and his answer was yes, but you can't afford them for simple casting manufacturing.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Well INA, you did a very good job explaining your views of the reason for 034's manifold failure as vendor. Being on the other side of the fence, I can tell you that besides the poor choice of casting that lead to structural failure, replicating the same OEM design and mistakes in terms of flow (mainly the cluster f*** collector) was not the best idea. Since it was a step in the right direction, it was accepted but the core buyers, who are guys like me that are looking to maximize things around stock frame turbos, weren't particularly impressed with the fact that the collector (which is one of the main restriction points) wasn't improved. Truth be told, the poor casting and subpar material for an exhaust manifold killed it and I don't think that Bill (badger5) had anything to do with it, he simply vocalized what we were also experiencing on this side of the pound. Sooner or later the word would have been out on the failures. 

Revise the design and use proper material and you will have a true competitor to the JBS unit. Although associating 034 and the word exhaust manifold still leave a bad after taste, I would still give my business to US based companies if the product is right. In that segment where maximizing power is the goal and only real reason for buying, pricing IMO takes a back seat and it's about having the best product. My 2 cents!


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I would still give my business to US based companies if the product is right. In that segment where maximizing power is the goal and only real reason for buying, pricing IMO takes a back seat and it's about having the best product. My 2 cents!


 I couldn't agree more with this statement:thumbup:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Truth be told, the poor casting and subpar material for an exhaust manifold killed it and I don't think that Bill (badger5) had anything to do with it, he simply vocalized what we were also experiencing on this side of the pound. Sooner or later the word would have been out on the failures.


 "vocalized" :laugh: 
We had a few cars running with relatively low EGT's (even to this day). All the manifolds that left INA were ceramic coated so that may have helped it but Badger5 went direct to 034 and sourced an uncoated manifold from a new sales agent which subsequently cracked. 
I am not going to get into specifics but that entire SCN situation was unprofessional but yes , investment casting the manifold is the way forward.


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

Completely off topic question but since Issam is probably watching this thread, is there any place to order the DLI mounts in the US or do I have to wait for the long shipping?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

jwalker1.8 said:


> Completely off topic question but since Issam is probably watching this thread, is there any place to order the DLI mounts in the US or do I have to wait for the long shipping?


Send me an email : [email protected]:thumbup:


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I totally understand and agree 100% with you ... to each their own. We are just in opposite side of a spectrum. What you view as Ok is way too laggy for the kind of use I have for my car and where it's Ok for me if the power drops, it's not acceptable for you. I build my car to be competitive at a national level in SCCA solo and ProSolo, so there is a real purpose to it and a real gauge of what's usable. But I can tell you that much... when you are chasing tenths of a second, having to wait for power past 3k is a deal breaker :thumbdown:
> 
> To answer your question, the K04 really start running out of breath past 6k. I have not experimented with all the restrictions removed around the turbo so I really do not have an accurate sense of what the turbo itself can and can't do. I have the entire air charge pipe virtually free of restrictions with an air to water interccoler that I just built - the exhaust side is free up to the manifold (I have yet to get my JBS upgrade) - the Turbo inlet track can see some improvement too although my system now consist of a silicone uprated TIP a 3" ID S4 MAF and the notorious 42 DD V-stack intake. Until all of that stuff is out of the way all everyone can do is speculate on the true limit of the K04.
> 
> ...


Do you have a link or where can I purchase the TIP with turbo intake tapered adaptor?


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## peter139 (May 4, 2005)

Nice tip, interesting, will this also fit the 132kw? or will it hitting the cooling pipe?

See this crappy vid http://youtu.be/ZOT5mgHw1yA

or this one

http://youtu.be/knpf4ElDkVQ 

 :sly:

Hopefully is this tip stronger


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Well INA, you did a very good job explaining your views of the reason for 034's manifold failure as vendor. Being on the other side of the fence, I can tell you that besides the poor choice of casting that lead to structural failure, replicating the same OEM design and mistakes in terms of flow (mainly the cluster f*** collector) was not the best idea. Since it was a step in the right direction, it was accepted but the core buyers, who are guys like me that are looking to maximize things around stock frame turbos, weren't particularly impressed with the fact that the collector (which is one of the main restriction points) wasn't improved. Truth be told, the poor casting and subpar material for an exhaust manifold killed it and I don't think that Bill (badger5) had anything to do with it, he simply vocalized what we were also experiencing on this side of the pound. Sooner or later the word would have been out on the failures.
> 
> Revise the design and use proper material and you will have a true competitor to the JBS unit. Although associating 034 and the word exhaust manifold still leave a bad after taste, I would still give my business to US based companies if the product is right. In that segment where maximizing power is the goal and only real reason for buying, pricing IMO takes a back seat and it's about having the best product. My 2 cents!


pump for more constructive discuss on this topic .....both gents are providing info's about improving this awful restrictive Exhaust Manifold .

Q : is there any chance to get any of known respected companies to provide solution for this matter at hand ?

INA/IE/034/JBS... 1.8T engines in need for better-constructed-more-free-flow-exhaust manifold to go with latest provided Intake Manifold design.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Three of the four companies you cited have offered a high-performance K04-fitment manifold. So has CX Racing. There's no shortage of options.


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Three of the four companies you cited have offered a high-performance K04-fitment manifold. So has CX Racing. There's no shortage of options.


Totally understand ur point Doug yet what i meant is CAST manifold , i fully respect ur products and looking forward to maximize ur F23 on Quattro"Haldex" Setup 

my Equation :

42DD intake + Badger5 TIP + K04/F23 Turbo +best free-flow CAST turbo exhaust manifold in the market +3" DP+Tyrol IC +IE/034 Intake manifold+full WMI.

i want to have the broadest power band on 1.8t 20v engine if its possible


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, the 034 cast unit is gone, but definitely not forgotten. It works really well paired with a high-output turbo. That's why I prod Issam to resurrect it, but it's a lost cause.

The JBS unit is also cast, but it too came out of the gate flawed. While reliable (evidently), the outlet-to-turbo is under-specced.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Well, the 034 cast unit is gone, but definitely not forgotten. It works really well paired with a high-output turbo. That's why I prod Issam to resurrect it, but it's a lost cause.
> 
> The JBS unit is also cast, but it too came out of the gate flawed. While reliable (evidently), the outlet-to-turbo is under-specced.


At least the JBS one could be massaged to work. The 034 one would still get the business if properly casted with the right material. I'd definitely support the US based company if the product is done and priced right. Maybe we can all get on Issam's back to see if can make it happen. We still need a good cast manifold that is sorted out, to fill that void in our setups.


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## seth_3515 (Dec 26, 2008)

PLAYED TT said:


> Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?


Hp doesn't break rods, torque does. The vortex answer is 300lbs of torque. Now there are some things to consider. If you are running a spiking turbo like the K04 the torque hits hard and fast. So it wil be more likely to break rods if you are near te 300 line. Larger turbos with a smooth torque curve will be easier on the Ross allowing them to last longer if you tube to keep the torque under the magic mark.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> We still need a good cast manifold that is sorted out, to fill that void in our setups.


 Cast Stainless?


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Issam Abed said:


> Cast Stainless?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Issam Abed said:


> Cast Stainless?


 Anything Issam, as long at it is casted to last and offers a decent improvement over OEM. :beer::beer: 

How do I talk to you about your unicorn iconel unit for my unique TT? 
I think they could be a match made in heaven... or maybe hell


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