# MS1 to MS3



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

This may seem long and lofty, but hopefully in the end it will help people making the leap. 

*Brief history:* 
When I originally built my MS1 years ago, I put it in my built G60 with distributor 42# Inj (on batch non-alternating) with the intention that I would have my new motor that I was building in "soon" and it would only be very short lived on the G60. ...work out any bugs, get a base tune and become familiar with MS, etc. 

Well, a lot has happened since then and my project changed directions a few times, but the new Lump is nearing entry point after years (below is my project build thread if you are interested). Since the build I became an MS1 die hard advocate/freak  I made some upgrades along the way to play and learn. MS1-e->HighRes -e code :thumbup: and 4 Batch (like stock) -> 2x2 Alternating. All upgrades have been  I held out on MSII mainly becuase the MS1 Extra code was :thumbup::thumbup: 

Well the plan was to run the new 2020 motor with the ABA 60-2 using factory COPs sequential, KnockSense, etc etc. Basically, everything. Fast forward to now. Since MS3 had been coming out, I have been drooling at the mouth. And, as I am making harness and wiring for the new setup, I figured it was a good time to Jump Ship on MS1. Especially since the MS3x will make it so much easier. 

The plan is "now" to run MS3, MS3x, EGTs for each Cyl, LM1 wideband, COP, Knock sense, possibly VVT in the future, VSS input, A/C control, etc. 

So, I got my MS3 Processor in yesterday along with the MS end harness for the new motor. In the mean time (before the new motor goes in), I am going to upgrade my MS1 V3.0 to MS3 (no X board yet until the new motor for sequential fuel/spark). 

So, this is a WIP thread of sorts as I feel somewhat like I am starting from or near the beginning. 

So, here are my question (to myself) that I am encountering as I start the forge forward and research. I welcome input along the way and yes, I won't mind any spoon feeding as I research  

*NOTE:* *some are very basic questions*, but ones people will have as they upgrade. 

I was going to just build a new V3 base board following the new MS3 instruction set, but figured why not just use my build I have and have been so proud of and just make the few mods  

I realize some of this will change when I add the Expansion board on the new motor so I denoted those separately. 

So, I have broken it down: 

*1.) Necessary Hardware purchases* 



MS3 Processor 

MS3 Case 

MS3x (if desired) along with MS3x Harness (but this will not be a part of this initial upgrade) 

?? Am I missing something, some small components that may have changes in the STD build since a *few years ago* (caps, resistors,etc)?? I may need to go through the MS3 Build step by step and compare to verify. For instance, I know VB921s are no longer used in place of the BIPS, but that makes no diff. 

 

*2.) Necessary Hardware Changes* 



C30 Cap across boot loader pins H1 (just came across this in 10 min prelim research). For 99% of installations. 

voltage/jumper for MSII/MSIII (just making a note from memory as I need to find the specifics). i.e. the one that will fry the processor if set for MS1 vs MSII/MSIII 

Ign circuit changes (see below) 

other schtuff ?? 

 

*3.) Ign Mod* 



When I built MS orig, I followed the std build step by step and then installed MS. Knowing I was going to need a pullup and not orig modifying for the VW Hall, I ended up with a jumper config that set me in "Next Cyl mode" with a Trigger Angle of 0. Perfectly acceptable, but non-conventional. So, I need to decide whether I need/want to change anything for MS3. Go to the correct VW Hall Jumper set that Paul has posted about 1mil times  or what. Remember this initial conversion does not include the Exp board, just the MS3 processor upgrade. I remember reading a lot can be changed in the SW (leading vs training triggers, etc), but I am not sure if this is for std MS3 or only MS3x or.. 


Not sure what happens with to this when I finally go MS3x if anything 

 

*4.) Custom ISV Mod* 



*EDIT:* I don't need to do anything here as I already made the normal change from fIdle -> PW ISV using Tip120. Even though I never installed the ISV to date and really had not much of a need  

From the MS3 Board Assy 
_26) Idle valves: 
The MS3 card has support for a 4 wire stepper idle valve built-in, just requiring 5 jumpers on the mainboard. 
When using the MS3X card in addition it is suggested that you install these jumper wires and use the standard 'FIDLE' components. 
If using 2 wire PWM idle without the MS3X card, you will need to upgrade the 'FIDLE' circuit on the V3.0 board. Note, the PWM Idle Valve circuit upgrade can also be used to drive other solenoids such as boost control._ 



Not sure what happens with to this when I finally go MS3x since MS3x has this hardware built in 

 

*5.) Easy Therm* 



When I upgraded to TunerStudio, I was unsure whether I need to place the custom .ini (using Bosch IAT and CLT) files in the dir as was necessary in MT, so I just did so. I placed them in the car and the main dir. I assume this is still need in MS3? I know this is "easy" but it is unnecesarily a thorn in my side. I really wish someone would post proper Bias resistors for VW sensors. Even with ET and iterations, my CLT temps were never EXACT and always a few * off. I have often though it going to GM sensors just to stop this madness :laugh: 

 I assume you still need to recompile the .asm in the same procedure 

 

*EDIT:* Jeff's response: _Concerning easy therm: It is not needed for MS2/Extra or MS3 code. Instead you can simply go to the Tools menu, then calibrate thermisors. Once in the calibrate thermistors menu, you'll need to enter 3 temps and resistance values and your bias resistor value or use one of the common values available. The Saab (Bosch) thermistor settings work perfectly with stock VW sensors even when using the standard(GM) bias resistor._ 

*6.) .msq* 

*EDIT:* need to disseminate the info from this link to update the bullets below -> http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/firmware.html 



Started a new project in TS before installing or connecting hardware for MS3, specified proper MS3 in project settings in anticipation of downloading that appropriate version and got error ("You should not build an .msq from scratch"). oook.. Guess I need to make hardware mods and install processor and try to load initial MS3 code?? 

Need to verify the procedure for loading new Firmware on MS3 (I think it is in the base build in Megamanual). Need to verify if I need to do this over a DB9 or can use the USB port. Have no DB9 on my LT, but still have the DB9->USB cable if necessary. Need to verify port settings if I must use this. Think the baud rate changes from MS1 

I know I need to verify port settings and use the FTQ driver for the direct USB port 

I previously Exported all .vex maps from MS1 Tune (Fuel, spark and A/F Targets) in anticipation of importing into new clean MS3 project 

I previously Noted all prev settings to enter into new .msq 

 

whew, I think we all need a drink so far.... 


I will update this as I go. All comments welcome.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Started updating some of the info above and will continue to do so.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Concerning easy therm: It is not needed for MS2/Extra or MS3 code. Instead you can simply go to the Tools menu, then calibrate thermisors. Once in the calibrate thermistors menu, you'll need to enter 3 temps and resistance values and your bias resistor value or use one of the common values available. The Saab (Bosch) thermistor settings work perfectly with stock VW sensors even when using the standard(GM) bias resistor. 

Another note concerning thermistors. 2007 and newer GM Ecotec motors (2.0, 2.2, 2.4) use a coolant temp sensor that is 10x1.5mm with a washer just like older VW threaded thermistors. It still uses the 2 pin "mushroom" connector like a 3/8"npt sensor.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

The jumper that needs to be installed is from S12c to JS9. Among other things it powers up the stepper driver. 

As far as ignition settings, go the biggest change (and this applies to MS2/extra as well as MS3) is that trigger angles and returns are no longer needed for missing tooth wheels. It has gotten MUCH easier. Now all you need is the angle of the missing tooth (teeth) in degress BTC in relation to TDC. Most (all?) VWs with a factory crank sensor use a 60-2 tooth trigger wheel with a trigger angle of 78 degrees. ALWAYS verify this with a timing light once the car is running by setting the timing to 10 degrees fixed and making sure with the timing light does in fact read 10 degrees.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

The baud rate does indeed change when upgrading from MS1 to MS2/MS3 but if you use Tuner Studio to auto detect your processor and firmware when starting the new project it will automatically select the correct baud rate for you.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Concerning easy therm: It is not needed for MS2/Extra or MS3 code. Instead you can simply go to the Tools menu, then calibrate thermisors. Once in the calibrate thermistors menu, you'll need to enter 3 temps and resistance values and your bias resistor value or use one of the common values available. The Saab (Bosch) thermistor settings work perfectly with stock VW sensors even when using the standard(GM) bias resistor.
> 
> Another note concerning thermistors. 2007 and newer GM Ecotec motors (2.0, 2.2, 2.4) use a coolant temp sensor that is 10x1.5mm with a washer just like older VW threaded thermistors. It still uses the 2 pin "mushroom" connector like a 3/8"npt sensor.


 Thanks Jeff! I thought I remembered reading something about that eons ago, but I tented to read and release most info not MS1 specific  I will continue to update the first post for anyone else in the future making this leap. a couple of years ago I spent way too much time logging temp vs resistance curves for a few of the VW CLTs and the Gauge Cluster Thermistors. Even with accurate measurements, the CLT was still always off a few degrees. At least now, I suppose it is easy to tweak if needed rather than having to recompile, copy .ini's and update firmware. 

Interesting on the GM sensors. I think my custom 20v head flange has a 10x1.5 port there, but I have yet to install it.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> The jumper that needs to be installed is from S12c to JS9. Among other things it powers up the stepper driver.


 Cool. I thought I remembered reading it added a 12v to the proc or something. 



Prof315 said:


> As far as ignition settings, go the biggest change (and this applies to MS2/extra as well as MS3) is that trigger angles and returns are no longer needed for missing tooth wheels. It has gotten MUCH easier. Now all you need is the angle of the missing tooth (teeth) in degress BTC in relation to TDC. Most (all?) VWs with a factory crank sensor use a 60-2 tooth trigger wheel with a trigger angle of 78 degrees. ALWAYS verify this with a timing light once the car is running by setting the timing to 10 degrees fixed and making sure with the timing light does in fact read 10 degrees.


 So, all of those trigger settings that i have been carrying around in various notes are no longer needed when I install on my 60-2?  Nice.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> The baud rate does indeed change when upgrading from MS1 to MS2/MS3 but if you use Tuner Studio to auto detect your processor and firmware when starting the new project it will automatically select the correct baud rate for you.


 Right, that part I know, but when loading the firmware, don't you need to do so though the batch cmd prompt util via the DB9? So, don't your port settings for the adapter cable have to be verified? I remembered that for MS1, I had to manually set these port settings in Winblows device manager. 

..or can you use the onboard USB to upload Firmware? I need to review the std MS3 Build procedures in detail I know.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

sdezego said:


> Right, that part I know, but when loading the firmware, don't you need to do so though the batch cmd prompt util via the DB9? So, don't your port settings for the adapter cable have to be verified? I remembered that for MS1, I had to manually set these port settings in Winblows device manager.
> 
> ..or can you use the onboard USB to upload Firmware? I need to review the std MS3 Build procedures in detail I know.


 Here's what I do, hook either a usb/serial adapter or usb a-b to one of my usb ports on the netbook. Go into windows device manager and see what com port has been assigned, write it down. Then as long as the usb/serial or usb a-b goes in the same port every time the com port stays the same. But note: if you use a usb/serial one time and a usb a-b the next they will be assigned different com ports even though they were plugged into the same usb port. 

Firmware flashes just fine through the MS3 usb port and TS has no problems autodetecting processor type, com port # and baud rate when you start a new project. I shouldn't say this but MS3/Tunerstudio makes MS1/Megatune look pretty stoneage.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sounds like you're making progress and Jeff has got you covered. :thumbup:

I would install the 3x in the case, even if it's just for now, it'll keep you from splitting the box open later. Since I've put 3x in, I haven't even had to open it!

For your trigger you can use any of my 'million times posted' ones OR you can use the VR circuit. I've been using this for all my installs as it is a 'no mod' upgrade to crank trigger. Seems to work for 5v hall perfectly (MS1 I use INV but 2/3 it won't matter).

What's the bootloader cap for, less noise on 12v? I haven't done that and can't say I've noticed any issues.

4x EGT will have you doing some circuit building, one thing to note with that is to bring your EGT wires AS CLOSE to the chip as possible as that joint is an extra junction. Distance will make error worse. I've been using one of Jean's boards jbperf.com to do my thermocouple inputs and it's really handy, though not "cheap."


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I _think_ it's going on a 20/20 so he'll have the ABA 60-2 to work off of. But if it's still got the PG/G60 I'd certainly recommend doing things your way with the hall in the dizzy.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Here's what I do, hook either a usb/serial adapter or usb a-b to one of my usb ports on the netbook. Go into windows device manager and see what com port has been assigned, write it down. Then as long as the usb/serial or usb a-b goes in the same port every time the com port stays the same. But note: if you use a usb/serial one time and a usb a-b the next they will be assigned different com ports even though they were plugged into the same usb port.
> 
> Firmware flashes just fine through the MS3 usb port and TS has no problems autodetecting processor type, com port # and baud rate when you start a new project. I shouldn't say this but MS3/Tunerstudio makes MS1/Megatune look pretty stoneage.


Cool thanks. Yea, just saw you can use the USB which I will do to get away from the Dongle.

For others watching, make sure you get the Correct FTDI USB driver first and use that when hooking up for the first time. I know a couple of people who did not and paid the price of many hours of frustration :laugh:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I would install the 3x in the case, even if it's just for now, it'll keep you from splitting the box open later. Since I've put 3x in, I haven't even had to open it!


Spent way to much on parts already this year, so I didn't order the X board yet. This initial upgrade will go on my PG/G60 and I will run it that way for the next couple of months while I am finishing the project lump.



need_a_VR6 said:


> For your trigger you can use any of my 'million times posted' ones OR you can use the VR circuit. I've been using this for all my installs as it is a 'no mod' upgrade to crank trigger. Seems to work for 5v hall perfectly (MS1 I use INV but 2/3 it won't matter).


ahh, forgot about using the VR input. I think I may actually try that.




need_a_VR6 said:


> What's the bootloader cap for, less noise on 12v? I haven't done that and can't say I've noticed any issues.


Yes, C30 on H1 is suppose to smooth out Battery Voltage per James C and the MS3 Assembly thread in the MM.



> 13) As long as you’re NOT using the coil –ve as the trigger input (Fuel only) find C30 and instead install it in H1/Boot (This adds smoothing to the battery voltage measurement and reduces the chance of noise getting injected into the CPU from the 12V line.)


From this thread -> http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=38589

and this one -> http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=38672




need_a_VR6 said:


> 4x EGT will have you doing some circuit building, one thing to note with that is to bring your EGT wires AS CLOSE to the chip as possible as that joint is an extra junction. Distance will make error worse. I've been using one of Jean's boards jbperf.com to do my thermocouple inputs and it's really handy, though not "cheap."


Right. I haven't hashed that out yet as it will be a config add-on with the new motor and not part of the turn key on this upgrade or the new motor. I did look at teh JBperf briefly though and that is what guided me to run 1/cyl. I will have the TC's and bungs already there though on the new motor. Definitely good info on the junctions for those not familiar with Thermocouples.

Thanks again guys. Additional info already provided is invaluable and the reason I knew it was a good idea to start this thread :beer:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> I _think_ it's going on a 20/20 so he'll have the ABA 60-2 to work off of. But if it's still got the PG/G60 I'd certainly recommend doing things your way with the hall in the dizzy.


Right Jeff. Going to upgrade to MS3 running on my PG/G60, but will then end up on the new 2020 and will use the ABA VR/60-2, fully sequential.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

sdezego said:


> Right Jeff. Going to upgrade to MS3 running on my PG/G60, but will then end up on the new 2020 and will use the ABA VR/60-2, fully sequential.


You're in for a shock with upgrade mode...... The car will run WAY better


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> You're in for a shock with upgrade mode...... The car will run WAY better


Even though it runs great now, I Can't wait! Should be in the next couple of days if I can find the time.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> ..OR you can use the VR circuit. I've been using this for all my installs as it is a 'no mod' upgrade to crank trigger. Seems to work for 5v hall perfectly (MS1 I use INV but 2/3 it won't matter).


Will I need the VR input + Pullup? -> Just under where this link take you? -> http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#tachint


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Just follow this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...nder-Trigger&p=67101392&posted=1#post67101392


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Bingo, no pullup on the installs I've done and it works well. The only thing to keep consistent is to use 5v for the hall. 12v might be a different story with that circuit.

You are in for a big leap in 'smooth' with MS3.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Bingo, no pullup on the installs I've done and it works well. The only thing to keep consistent is to use 5v for the hall. 12v might be a different story with that circuit.
> 
> You are in for a big leap in 'smooth' with MS3.


Nice! I used 5v orig on the hall so all is well there and will follow your footsteps. Forgot about that thread. :beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Me too, at least Jeff remembers!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Almost ready, but one other thought was Tach.

Because of the evolution of my projects, I started with a '90 Mechanical Cluster which has a HighCurrent analog tach module like MkIIs (that could care less about noisy signals). When I installed the innovate LM1 with the LMA3 eons ago, I had to add an Adj Pot to attenuate the signal just so the LMA3 (Aux box) could get a tach sig. When I put MS1, I just left this since I was on Dizzy.

I then upgraded to the later Corrado Digital and needed to use this same attenuator to get a clean tach signal (coming off of the Neg side of the coil BTW - like stock 90)

So, now I should probably decide on changing it in prep for the future motor.?. 

Should I: 


just leave it as is for now
build the tach circuit or is that even still necessary with MS3
other
 

To re-iterate, MS3x will not come until the new motor goes in 9if that makes a diff), so I will still be on Distrib PG for the time being. If I should just leave as is outside if MS for now, LMK.

I can post the Attenuating Circuit, but it is just a 20k adjustable Potentiometer between the tach signal and the cluster.

A from coil
B to Tach
C to ground


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

If you've got the later model digital tach you can go several ways without issue.

1: build the low voltage tach drive like the first one in this article: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Hardware.htm#tachoout Use a 4.7K resistor (thanks for that Paul!)

2: Use what you've got now and when you put the new motor and MS3X in use the MS3X tacho out as it works well with a VW digital tach.

3: Use either IAC1 or IAC2 as the tacho out without a driver circuit. It also works well with VW digital clusters. It's what I am using to run mine.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Me too, at least Jeff remembers!


I've got the thread saved to my favorites on 3 different computers! :laugh:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

:thumbup: I feel like a kid in a candy store again


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

sdezego said:


> :thumbup: I feel like a kid in a candy store again


I hear you... I just recently got my gear based boost control working and dialed in (James and Ken fogot to write the open loop code until RC5) and then spent several days playing every time I drove the car. I can't believe I didn't get any speeding tickets.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would use IAC1 or IAC2 right off the MS3 card with the digital cluster given your choices.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I will warn you about one thing with MS3. Once you install the 3X and go sequential ther are LOTS and LOTS of things to play with and tune. Fortuneately you don't have to use them all to get the car running but they can make the motor run like a late model factory setup once you're dialed in. It does require patience though :banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I would use IAC1 or IAC2 right off the MS3 card with the digital cluster given your choices.


:thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

LOTS of other things to play with. It's smart to start in upgrade mode just for sanity's sake. Even 3x but using things like batch/semi seq and waste/COP makes things a ton easier to get you going.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Finally had a chance to pull this out and start on it. So far everything has went well and I followed Paul and Jeff's advise above.

Mods have been made, ign circuit re-routed along with some other changes. MS3 Processor is in, proper USB communications (was getting a strange communication error in TS and needed to go into port settings and up the baud rate to 115k).

New project built, Looks good on the prehistoric Stim that I have, but there are a lot of settings I need to review and verify before I plug this into the car... 

Did the sensors, WB, etc and imported my .vex files. Went though most of the settings once, but need to go through them once more and verify. There were some new fiedls that I am not accustomed to and need to verify what they mean. Dwell settings for instance are not 1:1 from MT and I am not sure I ever really looked at a lot of that stuff when I started using TS.

I will update the post with any trials and tribulations once I get things wrapped up.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Watch some of the injector fields, the curves, opening times, etc can be different from MS1. I haven't looked at the included file in a while, but go through this stuff and post up anything you're not confident in setting.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I should mentioned that I loaded MS3 Firmware V1.0 that was recently released.



need_a_VR6 said:


> Watch some of the injector fields, the curves, opening times, etc can be different from MS1. I haven't looked at the included file in a while, but go through this stuff and post up anything you're not confident in setting.


Thanks Paul. I am sure this will help others too that are making the leap. I haven't/won't change any field I am not confident with  at least not w/o researching. I know that type of stuff can offer a world of hurt trying to figure out some nuance down the road. Yea, they are a lot of those settings that I have not idea about and really don't care initially as long as the defaults from the V1.0 .ini are "OK".

I am hoping the included .ini general settings are good for the most. Although the MPX4250 MAP sensor was not selected as the default and was set to Custom, so I hope that it not an indication.

Here are things that I would like to verify thus far:



Dwell settings
MS1 has Cranking, Running and Min Discharge (was running 6.0, 2.5 and 0.1 respectively)
MS3 has Cranking Dwell, Max Dwell Dur, Max Spark Dur (other settings that are Grey-ed out)

is the relationship:

MS1 MS3
Cranking Cranking
Running Maximum Dwell Duration
Min Discharge ??
?? < Maximum Spark Dur (def = 1.0)

*EDIT:* Confirmed that MS1 Min Discharge = MS2/3 Max Spar Dur, however see this note -> http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=24356&hilit=maximum+spark+duration


Knock settings

Using KnockSense(tm) and assume signal is Low?? but not sure if I need "Pullup" or "None" set. assume "None", but Pullup is the default when you enable Knock on. MS1 did not have these settings.

*EDIT: * Found some info under the MSII manual -> http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Hardware.htm#knock , however the actual option for the Pullup/Down Field has changed. Info found here: 

_Pullup/down on input Whether an internal pull-resistor should be applied and in what direction. Setting to 'same as' means that if the connection to the knock module breaks then the Megasquirt will automatically assume that knock is happening and pull timing. Set it to this unless you know otherwise. _


Distrub settings

Thought there would be an option for Dizzy. Use "*Basic Trigger*". Skip Pulses is set to 3 by default, but curious about this? Also, set Spark Hardware to LEDs Spark since I am coming off of the Led as it was from MS1.

*EDIT:* In looking through some literature (http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/distributor.html), maybe the Skip Pulse is suppose to be 3 for a 4cyl, but I have not found the exact piece that explains it. 


AE

This is the one area I think may be changed from the default?? Default is Enhanced Enrich = off. Options are EAE, X-Tau and X-Tau with CLT Correction I left other settings as default in Accel Wizard.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Concerning AE: My advice is to leave AE in normal mode until the car is fairly well tuned . EAE is constantly operating (even during cranking!) and can really send you on a wild goose chase if your base VE map and warmup settings etc aren't tuned well.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Thanks Jeff will do. I will probably hook it up, set the TPS and fire it up today if I can squeeze in some time.

In looking at the coil dwell values, I find so much disparity as to what is out there in the MS forums, here, etc. Curious what others are running for the stock MkII/G60 round style coil?

I started looking at these again as there is so much disparity and when I originally installed MS years back and I fried the first VB921 for no good reason. I ended up changing some of the values slightly, but who knows what the root cause was and could have been even a defective VB. Full thread here -> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...rive-Post-your-dwell-settings&highlight=dwell

Anyway, I may leave the default Spark duration at 1ms as opposed to the .1 that I was running and see if the VB gets warm.

I am also gathering that the BIPs appear to be "better", but I still have a few VBs


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

sdezego said:


> Thanks Jeff will do. I will probably hook it up, set the TPS and fire it up today if I can squeeze in some time.
> 
> In looking at the coil dwell values, I find so much disparity as to what is out there in the MS forums, here, etc. Curious what others are running for the stock MkII/G60 round style coil?
> 
> ...


Here are the ignition settings I use for the old school coil. 6 ms cranking dwell, 2.8 ms max dwell, and 1.5ms max spark duration. But I do run a BIP373 with that. I'd go with 6 ms cranking, 2-2.5 ms max and 1 ms max spark duration.

BIPs are more than just better than a VB921, they are almost indestructable. Paul and the guys at DIYAutotune have tried to kill a BIP and other than by physically damaging them have not been successful.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I had a little bit to plug it into the car and set the TPS and attempt to start.

No trigger signal during crank . It works fine on the old Stim (V2) that I have.

Here is what I set:


TachSelect ->VRin
VRoutInv -> Tsel
5v to Hall (as it was)
Both Pots Turned fully CCW until clicks
Signal on Pin 24 as it was


Verified 5v at the Hall and Removed the pullup I previously had between the Signal and 5v. I tried different settings on TS w/ no avail. I opened the tooth/trigger logger but saw nothing, however, I now see you actually have the click "Start" for it to start capturing (thought that was just to save the log, oops). I will retry it, but watching the tach in TS showed nothing.

LEDs show no indication when hooked up to the car (fine on stim), but sensors, TPS and everything else looks good on car.

I played with the trigger settings rising/falling, etc with no avail and even tried to play with the pots. I did not use the VR pullup as was suggested and just followed the link from the 1st page.

I will try and run some more tests later but the only thing that is different on the car vs stim (other than the physical trigger signal going to pin 24) is that I have/(and Had) Knocksense hooked up and configed via JS10. I may try to disconnect the the sig wire just to see.

I have wired up the tacho out via IAC1 and got it ready for the VSS in using the Opto circuit (suggestions from Jeff) but they are not hooked up in the loom.

Click for larger pics:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Note in case you don't see it: Tachselect is jumped to VRin as mentioned above, but the jump is on the topside of the board.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

You might try switching Tsel to VRout instead of VRoutINV. All of my MS2 and MS3 installs have worked best with non-inverted VR signals. ( but from what I can tell MS1 works better with inverted signals....:screwy


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Inverted/non inverted shouldn't matter you can change the input trigger edge in the software. What does a tooth log look like? Make sure if you invert the trigger you cycle power after or it doesn't take. However I think that a tooth log should show something no matter what with a distro... can you pulse VRIN to ground to see if it triggers?

For some of the other questions.. I use a 3.5ms max dwell on the VW internally amplified coils. Not sure if the BIP/VBs should be any different I use mostly internal amp coils. The VB's I've killed by the truckload.. the BIPs need to be heated in an oven to kill them, a very hot oven!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I tried the tooth and Trigger logging and got nothing. I tried unplugging the dist plug and tried shorting the sig pin to grnd intermittently and then tried sending it to the 5v pin. Nothing.

I also tried Rising and falling and recycling power will ill attempts.

I had a spare 1.8t 60-2 VR sesor, so I figured what they hey, let me hook it up and run a screw driver across it and immediately I heard the FP cycle and starting seeing activity on the tooth logger 

I even had a spare ABA 1 tooth dist, so i plugged that in to try and get a signal w/o avail.

Not sure what to try next. Moving the wire to VRout instead of VRInv? I tried setting the software to both Rising and falling with no results. hmmm...

I did not try to power the hall with 12v instead or 5v, but I suppose I could...


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

12v made no diff. Hooked back up the VR sensor in my hand again to make sure I wasn't dreaming and I was not. I guess this circuit will not work with this config.

I can try VRout -> TSel (probably have to be tomorrow), but I don;t see how/why that would make a diff. unless the software is not inverting it properly when switching to Rising/Falling


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You sure you have +/signal/- right on the hall sender? Can you try changing the 'Cam Input (if used)" to "none"?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You sure you have +/signal/- right on the hall sender?


Yep. Remember this was a running car on MS1, so the only aspect that I changed was that I pulled out the pullup. I may try putting the pullup back in just for giggles and try it as it is easy enough by the way I originally created it (soldered the 1kR to a clipped ATC fuse and Fuse holder bridging the + and signal in the harness). I don;t think this will work though becuase when I first attempted to start, I forgot to pull it out and immediately remembered when I saw no tacho. I did not try every comb though with rising/falling, etc.

The VR pullup diagram appears this is the only diff and shows VRout in use, however I assume this was just a matter of convenience in the doc. It does say to give 6 turns on R56 when going this route.

I will do some playing today and try to find out what the root cause and if it truly is an issue on VROUTinv and not just "get it working".



need_a_VR6 said:


> Can you try changing the 'Cam Input (if used)" to "none"?


No which seemed strange to me. The only options in TS are "JS10" or "MS3xCam In". Since the "Use Cam Signal if Available* above that field is set to off, I wasn't really worried in the assumption they are mutually inclusive.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I may review the VR Circuit just to make sure everything is copacetic from when I did the original build years ago (since the Vr cir was never in use), but in my mind, I ruled that out last night when it worked using a VR crank sensor in hand.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I know the VR circuit in non mod form works with a 5v hall, I've used it a few times on my installs as well as every customer unit since I made that post. Double check your parts (especially R52/56). A hall and VR put out very different signals, I wouldn't rule a wrong part out!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

well, I futzed with it for a good bit this morning. Tried every combination of using rising/falling, messing with R52 and R56, w and w/o a pullup. Nothing. Retested using VR sensor which worked fine. 

Swapped over Tsel from VRoutInv to VRout and still nothing *UNTIL* I turned R56 about 7 turns CW from full CCW. I did not play with anything in between (and not sure if I should??), I just started there becuase that is what is in the manual. 

The ABA dist and G60 seemed to behave the same (expected). I dunno man :laugh:  

She runs again  

So, moving on: When I had TS set to Falling Edge I had a Trigger Angle of around 0* , but the timing seemed to vary a bit with RPM. So, I switched it to Rising Edge and set the T/A which amounted to 76* and matches TS. I turned map on and checked it at a few spots and they did match. I was expecting a T/A of 60*. Anyway, is this all normal? Should it be set to Rising typically? 

Paul, if there is anything specific you want me to look at and try for the sake of human cause, I would be glad to do it  I am pretty sure I tired the VRinv with the same comb, but I suppose it is possible that I only tried it turning R52 and R56 and not just R56.. I tried so much stuff, it all kind of flows together.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Glad you got it, check the part numbers on R52/56 maybe you have them in backward? 

You need to have a trigger angle greater then your max advance, and as you noticed you might have erratic timing if you don't adhere to that simple rule. There's no problem with a 78deg trigger, you can adjust your distro to match it but I wouldn't really worry about it. The rising/falling just needs to be what works, it's more important if one edge of the trigger wheel isn't machined precisely (or if you're using a toothed/missing setup).


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Glad you got it, check the part numbers on R52/56 maybe you have them in backward?


 I'll check it out. However, when looking at the V3 BOM, I noticed this statement: _Please note that a few component values may have been tweaked - especially in the VR input circuit, but possibly others as well._ 

Now, I built this setup 4years ago, so I am wondering if something changed in the build


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Good thing I am a pack rat and still have the printed BOM and assy instructions from back when. Assuming that my DOM from DYI was the same, there appears to be a diff in U7 

New BOM shows: 
1	1	U7	LM2904NFS-ND	0.50	VR Sensor	OpAmp Dual SGL SUPP HS 8DIP 

OLD BOM shows U7 as MC34072APOS-ND 

hmmm, I am going to check all of this out including making sure R52/56 are in correctly.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Also, going to check this: 

Step 51 
... 
h.) Install and solder C31 {399-4329-ND, 0.1µF, 104 marking OR 399-2017-ND, 0.001µF}. This is located as the 4th cap in the row of "vertical" capacitors above the text "Bowling" in the copyright notice. 

Note: A 399-2017-ND 0.001 µF capacitor should be substituted if MegaSquirt will be receiving higher frequency tach inputs. The smaller capacitor helps to mainiain the signal integrity and timing. This 0.001 µF capacitor is especially useful for high tooth count wheels including all crank wheels that have more than one pulse per ignition event such as the popular 36-1 or 60-2 missing tooth crank wheels.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

sdezego said:


> Good thing I am a pack rat and still have the printed BOM and assy instructions from back when. Assuming that my DOM from DYI was the same, there appears to be a diff in U7
> 
> New BOM shows:
> 1	1	U7	LM2904NFS-ND	0.50	VR Sensor	OpAmp Dual SGL SUPP HS 8DIP
> ...


 R52/56 are correct however, I do have the older U7 (MC34072APOS-ND)


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Having a different op-amp could totally have caused it.. but I wouldn't recommend just swapping it out now that it all works!


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Agreed, it ain't broke so why fix it.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I have no intentions in swapping out U7, etc at this point although it is socketed, LOL. 

I was really just trying to get to the bottom of why I had nuances that you guys had not experienced. I am sure someone will run into this down the road at some point  

Today, I will load my new timing map as I did not like my imported .vex from MS1. Also will hook up the tacho out via IAC1 and VSS in. Tidy some other stuff and retune :beer:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

No drives yet, but a good amount of runtime in the garage, tacho out on IAC1 worked perfectly with no additional mods  

LM1 reads slightly different than TS (maybe .2-.3 AFR) (both are grounded at the same place). This was the case in MS1, but I was able to tweak with the cross over voltage to make them precise. I checked the analog out channel on the LM and it was set as I orig programmed it to 0-5v/10-20AFR, so I am not sure why there is a discrep. I did set the proper WB in TS-> Tools->Calibrate AFR Table. 

The only thing that is odd is that every time I unlock sensors and go into that menu, the field reverts to the default Narrowband. I know it is writing the WB settings properly to the controller, and I am sure this is just a software "feature" otherwise the A/F reading would be waay off. 

wondering if I should try going back to real LM1 settings at 0v = 7.35:1 AFR, and 5v=22.39 AFR or maybe just tweak the custom AFR->Voltage settings in TS and leave it at ~ 10-20


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Good deal Shawn! 

As far as the wideband goes, you could tweak it but having heard about Bruce Bowling's discussion at last year's Megameet concerning wideband accuracy I don't get overly concerned about a couple of tenths of discrepancy.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I've used the LM1 a few times and I've always had a slight offset with it (LM1 AFR vs TS AFR). I think it comes from how the LM1 usually gets grounded (through cig lighter, or other spot the MS ECU isn't directly grounded to).


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

agreed, but I wound't be able to sleep at night knowing the readings are different :laugh: 

So, I tried setting them both to the LM1 settings 0v = 7.35:1 AFR, and 5v=22.39, with same offset (kind of expected). So, I just went to the AFR calib in TS and set custom and played around a bit. 0v = 7.2 and 5v=22.39 seemed to put them spot on with each other. 

So, this all got me thinking (not obsessing, just thinking). I am wondering if it is best to use Lambda settings from the LM1 out (set via programmer) and in the TS project. The reason I am asking this is due to 10% ethanol which is here to stay. If the LM1 is outputting Lambda instead of a Converted AFR with stoich setting to 14.7 (vs 14.3), I am wondering if it is better to use λ. ..just a thought 

First Drive was  and it is pretty much tuned again. I left Acc Enrichment as basic, but did have to change the stock settings to get rid of a small flat spot coming off idle that I did not like. May need to play with it a bit more, but it is pretty darn good as is.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

sdezego said:


> agreed, but I wound't be able to sleep at night knowing the readings are different :laugh:
> 
> So, I tried setting them both to the LM1 settings 0v = 7.35:1 AFR, and 5v=22.39, with same offset (kind of expected). So, I just went to the AFR calib in TS and set custom and played around a bit. 0v = 7.2 and 5v=22.39 seemed to put them spot on with each other.
> 
> ...


 Pretty amazing isn't it? I've been messing with my boost table the last few days trying to find the line between fun/ spirited aceeleration and hang on, oh boy the cops are not going to like this. 

As far as Lambda vs. AFR...... it would be worth a try that's for sure. If you do try let us know.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Don't sweat the AFR thing, your meter is really outputting scaled lambda... it'll read 14.7 on the display but it'll really be 14.3 if you're using E10... or 9.8:1 if you're on E85 if you're really at stoich.  It gets really confusing when you use gas AFR numbers to tune other fuels.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

So, I tuned it over the weekend (really it tuned itself)  I still had a small flat spot coming off idle if I tromped it a bit. I played with the PW adder a bit for TPS, but was still not 100% happy. So, I turned AE from 100 TPS Dot (was default) to 60% (40% MAPDot).  

Loving it! 

Also got VSS and Gear indicator working, but had to move the VSS signal out of the Opto Conditioner and ran it straight into JS7. It gets an erratic spike ever so often, but no big deal. I just set the graph in TS to range only from 0-150. Would be nice if you could set up filter parms, but I guess this is pretty unique of an issue.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

sdezego said:


> So, I tuned it over the weekend (really it tuned itself)  I still had a small flat spot coming off idle if I tromped it a bit. I played with the PW adder a bit for TPS, but was still not 100% happy. So, I turned AE from 100 TPS Dot (was default) to 60% (40% MAPDot).
> 
> Loving it!
> 
> Also got VSS and Gear indicator working, but had to move the VSS signal out of the Opto Conditioner and ran it straight into JS7. It gets an erratic spike ever so often, but no big deal. I just set the graph in TS to range only from 0-150. Would be nice if you could set up filter parms, but I guess this is pretty unique of an issue.


I dunno it's certainly a Corrado issue


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Prof315 said:


> I dunno it's certainly a Corrado issue


What isn't? That using the output from the cluster with a cable speedo, or using the hall sender vss from a 91+?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> What isn't? That using the output from the cluster with a cable speedo, or using the hall sender vss from a 91+?


no speedo cable cluster.

Later 91+ Cluster using respective VSS on the trans drive. When I tried going through the opto first, I tried direct sig from the VSS as well as VSS signal out of Cluster via pin 7 (which branches out from cluster to Cruise, spoiler, ABS, etc).

Currently running T28/Pin7 direct to JS7 and working fine (just get a noise spike every so often).


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

HArd to believe almost a year has already gone by  Anyway, I have been driving it a few days a week since I tuned it and it is been great.

I have done little since then, but decided to revisit a few things. Shadowlogger has given me a new breath of enthusiasm 

1.) Upgrade software. still running 1.02. I have been watching the fix list. ASE taper being a big one for me and the Knock fixes to name a few.

2.) *Q: * What are you using for Lag factors? I ran across a thread that made me think I should look into these. 

3.) AE - At the time, I had to do some odd settings (at least I thought odd) to get a nice smooth romp. It was prob 95% when I left it and never bothered me. But why not make it perfect right?  Now wondering if some of this might have been related to #1.

4.) Need to adjust my A/F Targets for better Fuel mileage Cruise

Anyway, thoughts on #2?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

For afr lags, use a fuel cut limiter and set different rpm targets. Slam into them at various loads while logging. Check to see time difference between pw equal 0 and full lean. Populate table.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Shouldn't the A/F Lag be static for said device? i.e. 80 for LM1, 70 for LC1, etc?

I saw I still have the defaults of 60 for AFR and 50 for the others, which are overly normalized values based on what I am learning. 

Curious what values others are using


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sorry my post was to address transport delay. 

For lags, I just run the defaults, I have had no need to change them. Even on ms2 I used those values. 

I dont know what the exact sample rate is for ms3 i/o but that plays into it as well. The faster the sample, the less actual averaging happens.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I figured it is time for an update. I had some time to really fine tune a few aspects. I wanted to further improve a respectable idle AFR (even though I am running 42# inj on a 1.8L PG) and I wanted to tune for better mileage as I had with my MS1 tune.

I upgraded the firmware to 1 RC 18 as there are some major improvements and one that I like very much which includes Time based ASE (After Start Enrichment).

One thing I had to change after the flash was I had to revisit my Priming/Cranking PW. It would not hot restart without pedal (but note I do not run any IAC currently so not sure if that has any effect, but I never have). I am talking about an immediate hot restart (turn off from op temp and start). I had to make the PW pretty much on target with the idle PW and viola.

IDLE: I finally implemented PID AFR/EGO control vs simple. I really fought with this a bit and initially was getting worse results with AFR oscillations at idle. I played with the P and I terms and ultimately, I saw that there were some IDLE BINs that were causing the PID to go awry in some instances. All, I can say now it W0W! I have a idle much like it was with the factory ECU and 26# injectors 

ROCK STEADY ARF at IDLE :beer:

P.S. I did increase the LAG values to 80% across the board and 90% for WB 02


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