# NGK COPPER (Nickel) Spark Plug Solution for 2.5's exists! the ZFR5E-11



## themightyquinn (Dec 30, 2007)

This is the story of one VW-loving man's quest to find the perfect NGK standard copper (nickel-alloy!) spark plug for our beloved 2.5L inline-5 cylinder engine...read on friends!


So the only recommended COPPER spark plug (aka standard aka NOT platinum or iridium tipped AKA nickel-alloy outer electrode...remember all spark plugs have copper cores so it's kind of a misnomer!) for our 2.5L inline-5's is a Denso plug, K16GPR-U11, which I have not been very impressed with after 2 sets of 30k and 20k miles. Don't get me wrong, they were decent especially for the money ($3.07 per plug), but meh...

The alternative? Just buy OEM 2.5L plugs and be done with it you say? :screwy: No way, what am I made of money?! $12/plug is absurd, and Platinum tipped never seems to run as good (and that is backed up by electrical science...go look up conductivity of metals).

And since I've never had a poorly performing NGK plug in any application ever....the obvious next step was to spec out the Denso K16GPR-U11 plug, crossreference to NGK and BOOM, sexy electrical magic! :heart:

I came down to 3 NGK plugs that matched the Denso's specs (and as a check, they are all in the base family of the OEM platinum plug, PZFR5Q-11, hooray! :thumbup:

ZFR5D-11, ZFR5E-11, and ZFR5J-11

So these are all the same-spec'd plug, with the variable letter denoting "special firing-end design" which of course NGK does not explain anywhere. Initially I was set on the "J" version, thinking that since the original OEM platinum plug was a "J" plug (PZFR5J-11), however I found some info indicating the "J" copper plug had a shorter insulator than the other coppers and the OEM platinum plug. 

With that said, I chose the ZFR5E-11. 

No real reason over the "D" version...I thought I saw that the "D" was a non-V groove electrode so that was my reason against it...wouldn't hesitate to try the "D" or the "J" though, but as always your miles may vary/do at your own risk yadda yadda...I can only comment on the ZFR5E-11 ...

... and let me say...THEY ARE AWESOME. Now of course these are not "official" OEM spark plugs for our engine, so just remember that...but the results speak for themselves. I'll say it again for effect...


THE NGK ZFR5E-11 STANDARD COPPER SPARK PLUGS RUN GREAT IN VW 2.5L INLINE-5 CYLINDER ENGINES !!!!!!!


Just had to gap down to .040"/1.0mm. The butt-dyno says YES, idle is smoother, MPG's are up (couldn't get more than 28 highway before, recorded multiple highway cruises on the NGKs at 72-75mph in the 30.X range!), and, oh yeah, did I mention they cost $2.50 per plug? The wallet also says YES.


So run along now to your local auto parts store, where they are literally ALWAYS in stock (part #4435) and rejoice at the thought of walking out with 5 quality NGK copper plugs for less than $13. Boom shakalaka. Y'all are welcome! eace:


----------



## TheMysticWizard1 (Apr 9, 2010)

I too went through this. I had ran the Denso K16GPR-U11, less than 20k miles and they were done. Well rounded electrode and ground and the gap had widened significantly.

I began reading and ended up buying a set of NGK BKR7E-11 (Stock# 4464).

From researching, it looks that the ones I got had the v-groove center and a little less projected tip. They are also 2 steps colder. I can't find the specific thread that made me decide to go with these, but I do recall reading that the 2.5 is somewhat prone to detonation in stock form and it might be a good idea to go colder with a tune or other mods.

It's been about 3k miles and the car is running great. Big difference over the Denso plugs as far as smoothness. I did not notice a difference in mileage.

I've ran copper plugs in it since I changed them the first time. Not going to pay 12 bux a plug, Seems unreasonable.


----------



## themightyquinn (Dec 30, 2007)

Interesting about the BKR7E's, as people have been using that series plug in turbo engines since the 1.8t. The 7, a lot in the 2.0T...I wonder how on an n/a engine heat range 5 and 2 steps colder are both running good, but I do seem to remember hearing the same thing about pre-detonation. Maybe I'll try the BK's next or look for a colder ZF plug.

Anyone else?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

themightyquinn said:


> ZFR5D-11, ZFR5E-11, and ZFR5J-11





themightyquinn said:


> THE NGK ZFR5E-11 STANDARD COPPER SPARK PLUGS RUN GREAT IN VW 2.5L INLINE-5 CYLINDER ENGINES !!!!!!!


I'll second this, been running both the ZFR5D-11, and ZFR5E-11, for quite some time now (two different cars). :thumbup:


----------



## Bora Jon (May 31, 2007)

Thanks for the tip! I miss my NGK V powers. I always ran them in my 1.8T's and changed them every oil change because they were so cheap to buy. The Denso's suck. not even 5,000 miles and I had a slight misfire at idle. Put these in and she's as smooth as butter. Torque profile feels better at partial throttle too. Needless to say I am very happy. The best part was when I went into the parts place and the guy behind the counter looked at me like I was crazy when I said I needed five plugs.


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

There are some technical differences between the 2005.5 to early-2007.5 and late-2007.5+ OE 2.5l plugs that you don't want to overlook..

The 2005.5 to early-2007.5 2.5l uses *OE part # 101-998-600-C / NGK part # PZFR5Q-11.* These Laser Platinum plugs have a 3.0mm extended metal shell (unthreaded portion of the thread reach), 7.0mm projection of center electrode, 1k ohm and platinum center electrode.

The late-2007.5+ 2.5l uses *OE part # 101-998-601-F / NGK part # PZFR5J-11:* 
These Laser Platinum plugs share the same specs as above except for the ground electrode is copper cored instead of the standard nickel core. For whatever reason this was updated by VW on late model 2.5ls. 

Maybe this changed in correlation to the later 2.5ls making more power (150hp vs 170hp). That's not to say the plugs are what made the extra power, that would be foolish, but ECU programming and other minor hardware enhances did occur during this model year split. 

Now let's compare the less expensive plug options the OP listed above..

*ZFR5D-11*: These plugs have a 3.5mm extended metal shell, 6.5mm projection of the center electrode, 5k ohm and standard nickel plug. 
*ZFR5E-11*: Same as the 'D' plug listed above, but the center electrode has a V-groove for better ignitability.
*ZFR5J-11*: These plugs have a 0mm extended metal shell, 5.0mm projection of the center electrode, 5k ohm and V-groove plug.

The most important thing to take away from all this information is the _extended metal shell_ value. This value should not deviate from the OE spec of 3.0mm. Therefore, none of these V-Groove plugs are technically compatible with what's recommend by VW (and NGK). The closest match is the 'E' plug chosen by the OP, but even so, it's still technically not qualified for use in any 2.5l. To date, NGK does not offer any alternatives for the Laser Platinum plugs PZFR5Q-11 & PZFR5J-11.

Your mileage may vary and by no means am I crapping on the OP, or other contributors. Instead, I just wanted to share what I've learned over the years of owning a few 2.5ls. 

:beer:


----------



## themightyquinn (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks for the extra specs/info. I think the only design spec I would ABSOLUTELY want to pay attention to was the electrode extended projection...and that's only to say that I would NOT select a plug with MORE than the OE plug's projection. Not sticking that electrode any farther into the combustion chamber than stock, no Russian roulette for me thanks!

I honestly don't think that the shell shroud extension has much of an impact on plug selection in this instance. The longer shroud helps dissipate heat, but even in a hot-running N/A car like ours, I don't see this as a major specification.

Obviously the goal is to find a plug as close to the stock specs as possible but in copper/nickel electrode form.

I did have a question about spark plug resistor values that the above post reminded me of...does the 5k ohm vs 1k ohm resistor in the copper/nickel NGK plugs vs. the laser platinum ones make a difference? I know it's super high voltage anyway, so really it shouldn't make a huge difference, but just wondering if anyone knows forsure.


----------



## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

@themightyquinn and @kölsch

Thank you for the valuable information. Replaced my OEMs this summer to Denso K16GPR-U11 and has been getting really good mileage and smooth idling since then. Now planning to try NGKs next time.


----------



## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

Finally, NGK unveiled OEM specified spark plug. It specifies ZFR6T-11G for VW part # 101905601F.

Check https://www.ngk.de/nc/en/product-finder/produktfinder/////ZFR6T-11G/


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Ronny Bensys said:


> Finally, NGK unveiled OEM specified spark plug. It specifies ZFR6T-11G for VW part # 101905601F.
> 
> Check https://www.ngk.de/nc/en/product-finder/produktfinder/////ZFR6T-11G/


They're a step colder than OE. Interesting.


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

I noticed there's another new plug listed for 07K duty, but on the US website:

https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=10208

This spark plug is not no longer listed as compatible with the 2.5l.


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Here's some more info comparing the ZFR5E-11 and ZFT6T-11G plugs:

*ZFR5E-11*

Standard nickel ground electrode
3.5mm extended metal shell (unthreaded)
6.5mm center projection
5 heat range
Std. 0.8mm center electrode (v-notch cut in center to reduce quenching)


*ZFR6T-11G*

Copper infused ground electrode (used to pull heat away from the ground electrode in certain applications)
3.0mm extended metal shell (unthreaded)
7.0mm center projection
6 heat range
Std. 0.8mm nickel center electrode

Notice the ZFR6T-11G extended shell and projection values are the same as the PZFR5J/Q-11 Laser Platinum plugs.
Of all the options available, the ZFRT6T-11G plug seems like a good option for those with heavy modifications and/or hard driven vehicles.
That should keep temperatures high enough to prevent fouling of the 6 heat range plug is now the recommended plug for 2010+ CBTA/CBUA 2.5ls as well as Bosch's FR7HE02.


----------



## facegame221 (May 10, 2017)

cheap on ebay 


https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=NGK+ZFR5E-11&_sop=15


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

facegame221 said:


> cheap on ebay


Ehh, Ebay can be pretty damn sketchy (knock-offs), I would suggest going to your local parts vendor/distributor.

NGK knock-offs are/were a problem and flooded Ebay for quite some time, they're basically garbage. If you search, there was website that noted the tell-tale characteristics related to knock-off. I've always played it safe and purchased in-store, the Pep Boys on the way home from work always has them in stock. The plugs are inexpensive as is, not worth the risk to save a few pennies...


----------



## facegame221 (May 10, 2017)

Ive bought from ebay/pepboys/autozone with no issues


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

facegame221 said:


> Ive bought from ebay/pepboys/autozone with no issues


The nickel / copper V-Power NGK ZFR5E-11 plugs can be found at any big box parts store for ~$2.50/each and may be a good alternate for use in the 2.5l while not being officially recommended by NGK or VW if you don't want to spend big money on the PZFR5Q-11/PZFR5J-11 Laser Platinum plugs that are what VW calls for.

The ZFR6T-11G plugs Ronny mentioned back in Nov 2017 are Euro-only parts, so you'd have to stick to buying from a foreign vendor. are available at big box US retailers for use in 2010+ CBTA/CBUA 2.5ls applications.


----------



## der skillz (Aug 8, 2006)

brining this back, because I forgot part number. and yes, these work fantastic. eace:


----------



## SNS1938 (Jan 13, 2014)

I was looking for new plugs, as I'm at 35,000 miles since I put in OEM plugs, and VW says 40k miles between changes. Anyways, OE are $8 something, but then the higher spec Irridium plugs are $6 something. According to RockAuto they both fit. Why wouldn't I just buy the Irridium? How do you confirm that they actually fit? A couple websites list them as fitting.

Any help much appreciated. Even the OE's, if the last 40,000 miles, will see me through my ownership of the car (as that'll be another 5 years), but if the Irriduim really are better, and cost less ... then why not?

Thanks,


----------



## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

Better confirm with the manufacturers like NGK or Bosch. Afaik Bosch doesn't offer iridium or platinium for the 2.5L.


----------



## Lenihan (Aug 10, 2019)

I see its recommended to run heat range 6 after 2010. Not sure why most people are still running heat range 5 plugs when its not recommended after the 2010 year 2.5 engines. I am having a go with some ruthenium plugs with same dimensions as the copper plugs 

*FR6AHX-S (94279)*


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

There’s some old part numbers in here and VW has since updated them. Here is what plugs are called for on all 2.5 motors 

Here is some spark plug info that I’ve researched with VW parts database. 

All Rabbits 2006-2009, 2005.5-2007 jetta use the NGK double platinum laser PZFR5Q-11 (6737) VW part number 101905600C. These are the only cars with a 2.5 that VW calls for NGK platinum plugs. 

2007.5 and 2015 jetta, 2006-2009 beetle, 2010-2014 golf, 2012-2015 Passat all use Bosch copper/nickel FR7HE02 vw part number 101905601F. VW calls for all these cars to use a Bosch copper/nickel plug. 

Regardless of plug VW interval is 40,000 miles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> There’s some old part numbers in here and VW has since updated them. Here is what plugs are called for on all 2.5 motors
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Nice, so the NGK part # ZFR6T-11G is one step colder and would be a match for the later 2.5s. Where did you see these part number updates?


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

halbwissen said:


> Nice, so the NGK part # ZFR6T-11G is one step colder and would be a match for the later 2.5s. Where did you see these part number updates?


VW parts data base. 

Why would it be a match? 

It’s not what VW calls for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> VW parts data base.
> 
> Why would it be a match?
> 
> It’s not what VW calls for.


Just because VW calls for a Bosch plug doesn’t mean an NGK wouldn’t work, right? The part number I shared is listed as compatible on NGK’s website and hits all the marks- NGK 5960 ZFR6T-11G Nickel Spark Plug.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

halbwissen said:


> Just because VW calls for a Bosch plug doesn’t mean an NGK wouldn’t work, right? The part number I shared is listed as compatible on NGK’s website and hits all the marks- NGK 5960 ZFR6T-11G Nickel Spark Plug.


Interesting. NGK shows that it’s compatible. That makes me feel a little more comfortable. 

Curious though, why would you rather use a cheaper/ lower grade plug when VW calls for a Laser Platinum plug? Assuming you’re talking about early 2.5’s. Late 2.5’s use a nickel/ copper plug, so I don’t see an issue there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> ...
> 
> Curious though, why would you rather use a cheaper/ lower grade plug when VW calls for a Laser Platinum plug? Assuming you’re talking about early 2.5’s. Late 2.5’s use a nickel/ copper plug, so I don’t see an issue there.


I should’ve clarified that I was talking about that particular plug being used in CBTA/CBUA 2.5s. These NGKs are also less expensive than the Bosch, so that’s an added bonus; big box stores want $7+ for the Bosch and <$3 for the NGK.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

halbwissen said:


> I should’ve clarified that I was talking about that particular plug being used in CBTA/CBUA 2.5s. These NGKs are also less expensive than the Bosch, so that’s an added bonus; big box stores want $7+ for the Bosch and




Maybe because the Bosch plug has a Nickel-Yttrium Alloy tip and the NGK has a Nickel tip. There could be the reason for a price difference. 

The Bosch plug was designed to last 40k due to its multi alloy tip. Is the NGK rated to do the same? In my experience most standard nickel/copper plugs last 24k and there performance drops off pretty fast after that. 



Edited for format.


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> Maybe because the Bosch plug has a Nickel-Yttrium Alloy tip and the NGK has a Nickel tip. There could be the reason for a price difference.
> ....


Yeah, you could be right. 🍻


----------



## Bignoon21 (Feb 17, 2021)

themightyquinn said:


> This is the story of one VW-loving man's quest to find the perfect NGK standard copper (nickel-alloy!) spark plug for our beloved 2.5L inline-5 cylinder engine...read on friends!
> 
> 
> So the only recommended COPPER spark plug (aka standard aka NOT platinum or iridium tipped AKA nickel-alloy outer electrode...remember all spark plugs have copper cores so it's kind of a misnomer!) for our 2.5L inline-5's is a Denso plug, K16GPR-U11, which I have not been very impressed with after 2 sets of 30k and 20k miles. Don't get me wrong, they were decent especially for the money ($3.07 per plug), but meh...
> ...


I have a 09 vw rabbit can I use these plugs or should I use something different?


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Bignoon21 said:


> I have a 09 vw rabbit can I use these plugs or should I use something different?


Check this post for the best answer. Or you can experiment with some "non-approved" options discussed throughout the first page.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Bignoon21 said:


> I have a 09 vw rabbit can I use these plugs or should I use something different?


Rabbit use the NGK Laser Platinum I posted earlier. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Delete. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lenihan (Aug 10, 2019)

Running the ruthenium plugs. Works good for me

*FR6AHX-S (94279)*


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Plugs came with some OEM Denso R8 coils. I’ll report on how I like these NGK V Power plugs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Lenihan said:


> Running the ruthenium plugs. Works good for me
> 
> *FR6AHX-S (94279)*


Heat range is 6. Early 2.5 NGK should be 5 and later 2.5 is one step hotter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

Interesting, can anyone detail what warranted the range change?


----------



## Wicked08Wabbit (Sep 7, 2020)

themightyquinn said:


> This is the story of one VW-loving man's quest to find the perfect NGK standard copper (nickel-alloy!) spark plug for our beloved 2.5L inline-5 cylinder engine...read on friends!
> 
> 
> So the only recommended COPPER spark plug (aka standard aka NOT platinum or iridium tipped AKA nickel-alloy outer electrode...remember all spark plugs have copper cores so it's kind of a misnomer!) for our 2.5L inline-5's is a Denso plug, K16GPR-U11, which I have not been very impressed with after 2 sets of 30k and 20k miles. Don't get me wrong, they were decent especially for the money ($3.07 per plug), but meh...
> ...


Ive been using the *Brisk USA Premium Racing Spark Plug 14mm... *yeah I get it they are kinda expensive when it comes to spark plugs at little over 13 dollars a piece but trust me they are worth it, ive never had good luck with any of the spark plugs listed for the 2.5l, specially not with what I've done to it, iridium plugs, platinum, copper, Nicole, even ruthenium plugs.... but these Brisk plugs are killers, ive never had my car run this well before, even my throttle response is better and the heat range is correct as well..


----------



## ChefroA6 (Dec 3, 2020)

halbwissen said:


> I should’ve clarified that I was talking about that particular plug being used in CBTA/CBUA 2.5s. These NGKs are also less expensive than the Bosch, so that’s an added bonus; big box stores want $7+ for the Bosch and <$3 for the NGK.


Based on this particular thread/discussion I "secured" 10 plugs from O'Reilly for $ 2.29/piece... 
As I already replaced the spark plugs 7000 miles back (at 65,000 miles) after purchasing the car, I'm now covered for the duration of ownership.


----------



## JaxPlanet (Sep 17, 2018)

Wicked08Wabbit said:


> Ive been using the *Brisk USA Premium Racing Spark Plug 14mm... *yeah I get it they are kinda expensive when it comes to spark plugs at little over 13 dollars a piece but trust me they are worth it, ive never had good luck with any of the spark plugs listed for the 2.5l, specially not with what I've done to it, iridium plugs, platinum, copper, Nicole, even ruthenium plugs.... but these Brisk plugs are killers, ive never had my car run this well before, even my throttle response is better and the heat range is correct as well..


Those are some *ridiculous* statements. *SMH.*


----------



## DRGraphix (Jun 7, 2008)

Thank (almost) everybody for the information listed here. My 2005.5 has had random misfires over the years, often seemingly depending on humidity. I replaced the knock sensors twice before realizing that wasn't likely the problem. As well as professionally cleaning the injectors, I plan on trying plugs other than oem. I've never researched spark plugs beyond part number lookup, so this thread really helps.

Please help me clarify: If I run a cooler plug, will this reduce my chance of knock? My engine is a BGQ from 2007, swapped from the original BGP. The knock can happen whether or not I have my stock intake or my short ram cold air intake. I may also replace the coils, it's been a few years since my last set.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

DRGraphix said:


> Thank (almost) everybody for the information listed here. My 2005.5 has had random misfires over the years, often seemingly depending on humidity. I replaced the knock sensors twice before realizing that wasn't likely the problem. As well as professionally cleaning the injectors, I plan on trying plugs other than oem. I've never researched spark plugs beyond part number lookup, so this thread really helps.
> 
> Please help me clarify: If I run a cooler plug, will this reduce my chance of knock? My engine is a BGQ from 2007, swapped from the original BGP. The knock can happen whether or not I have my stock intake or my short ram cold air intake. I may also replace the coils, it's been a few years since my last set.


Try upping your octane. Remember, the owners manual says for best performance, use 91 octane. 

Try 89 and then move up to 91 if the knock is till there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DRGraphix (Jun 7, 2008)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> Try upping your octane. Remember, the owners manual says for best performance, use 91 octane.
> 
> Try 89 and then move up to 91 if the knock is till there.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've already been all over that, plus octane boosters sometimes. It's really fickle, and I have my theories. It seems to happen more while rounding tight corners, so maybe the electric steering is pushing voltages just past certain points? I'll soon replace the coils and plugs, and probably upgrade the ground wires, if not do the big 3 (my sound system dims the lights, so this is on the list anyway). I'm still debating which plugs to run, but will make the choice soon. Lots to consider.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

themightyquinn said:


> This is the story of one VW-loving man's quest to find the perfect NGK standard copper (nickel-alloy!) spark plug for our beloved 2.5L inline-5 cylinder engine...read on friends!
> 
> 
> So the only recommended COPPER spark plug (aka standard aka NOT platinum or iridium tipped AKA nickel-alloy outer electrode...remember all spark plugs have copper cores so it's kind of a misnomer!) for our 2.5L inline-5's is a Denso plug, K16GPR-U11, which I have not been very impressed with after 2 sets of 30k and 20k miles. Don't get me wrong, they were decent especially for the money ($3.07 per plug), but meh...
> ...


So far, the OP is on to something. I’m using these plugs and that are great. 

Next I’m going to try the NGK ZFR6T-11G Copper Nickel. These are OEM for later 2.5 motors. I have early 2.5. I’m curious how these slightly bottler plugs will run and especially since I run premium at all times. 

I’ll report back. But good find OP. These work great. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> So far, the OP is on to something. I’m using these plugs and that are great.
> 
> Next I’m going to try the NGK ZFR6T-11G Copper Nickel. These are OEM for later 2.5 motors. I have early 2.5. I’m curious how these slightly bottler plugs will run and especially since I run premium at all times.
> 
> ...


When you run higher octane gas than the car is designed for, the ECU adjusts the ignition system so that it runs like it would on regular octane. This made a difference in older cars but you're wasting your money for the more expensive gas.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Boomer Guy said:


> When you run higher octane gas than the car is designed for, the ECU adjusts the ignition system so that it runs like it would on regular octane. This made a difference in older cars but you're wasting your money for the more expensive gas.


Oh no, you haven’t read the owners manual. 

It says for best performance use premium, but minimum requirement is regular. 

This was also covered by a few auto magazines in the 2000’s with dyno test and fuel economy test. Premium really improved power and economy. 

The car was was designed to take advantage of premium. It’s also pretty well known that modern VW ecus have aggressive timing software compared to others. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Ok, I found a set of Bosch copper nickel FR7HE02 which are OE for 170hp 2.5, but wow, the best plug I have ran yet. So far the worst plug was the NGK laser platinum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> Oh no, you haven’t read the owners manual.
> 
> It says for best performance use premium, but minimum requirement is regular.
> 
> ...


I wasn't aware of that. It looks like I've got to go back and read my manual again. I'm usually pretty good about that. Still, I can't complain about the performance. I have NGK coils and iridium plugs in my 2008 2.5. It runs fantastically. It has the 09G automatic transmission and I only run "D" on the interstate. I use "S" or manual mode for everything else below 70 mph. It consistently gets great gas mileage - upper 20's around town and upper 30's on the highway - with the rpm's always well above 3K. In spite of the low end torque, I do not run it like an old Buick at low rpm's. This car loves to scream. With over 153K miles on it, it burns no oil and has no leaks (no vacuum pump). I keep all fluids changed regularly with premium quality.

On the subject of premium gas, I used to have a Miata NB2 which required premium. The owner's manual said it would run on regular octane but not it was not recommended. Any savings at the pump was sacrificed in performance AND gas mileage. I always ran top tier premium in it. 

I've been running top tier regular octane in my Rabbit but I'll try the top tier premium and see if I can notice a difference in performance. 

Thanks.


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

Boomer Guy said:


> I wasn't aware of that. It looks like I've got to go back and read my manual again. I'm usually pretty good about that. Still, I can't complain about the performance. I have NGK coils and iridium plugs in my 2008 2.5. It runs fantastically. It has the 09G automatic transmission and I only run "D" on the interstate. I use "S" or manual mode for everything else below 70 mph. It consistently gets great gas mileage - upper 20's around town and upper 30's on the highway - with the rpm's always well above 3K. In spite of the low end torque, I do not run it like an old Buick at low rpm's. This car loves to scream. With over 153K miles on it, it burns no oil and has no leaks (no vacuum pump). I keep all fluids changed regularly with premium quality.
> 
> On the subject of premium gas, I used to have a Miata NB2 which required premium. The owner's manual said it would run on regular octane but not it was not recommended. Any savings at the pump was sacrificed in performance AND gas mileage. I always ran top tier premium in it.
> 
> ...


UPDATE: I read my owner's manual for the fuel octane recommended for my 2008 2.5. It said IF premium fuel is recommended, it would be printed on the label inside the fuel filler "flap" (door). I checked the label and it listed 87 and 91 both, without a preference. This tells me the premium is not recommended but will work. I still plan on trying it out for a comparison and I will be objective. I would definitely like even better performance than I already have, although it is great right now. If it turns out to be the same, I'm still happy. 
In spite of the weird German engineering, I still love the car....electrical gremlins and all.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Boomer Guy said:


> UPDATE: I read my owner's manual for the fuel octane recommended for my 2008 2.5. It said IF premium fuel is recommended, it would be printed on the label inside the fuel filler "flap" (door). I checked the label and it listed 87 and 91 both, without a preference. This tells me the premium is not recommended but will work. I still plan on trying it out for a comparison and I will be objective. I would definitely like even better performance than I already have, although it is great right now. If it turns out to be the same, I'm still happy.
> In spite of the weird German engineering, I still love the car....electrical gremlins and all.


The fuel door is just listing the min requirement, the 91 you see is RON. In AKI it’s 87. AKI is used in most of NA and RON is used in other places. Both are 87 octane. 

There is a section in the manual that talks about fuel grade. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> The fuel door is just listing the min requirement, the 91 you see is RON. In AKI it’s 87. AKI is used in most of NA and RON is used in other places. Both are 87 octane.
> 
> There is a section in the manual that talks about fuel grade.
> 
> ...


You're right, I went back to the label and it does mention AKI 87 and RON 91 as being the minimum requirements. I've gone through the whole Section 3.2 of the many volume owner's manual and the only other details I've found are in regard to alcholol and methanol. There is nothing in there about the car running better on premium AKI 91. I will try it out, just out of curiosity.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Boomer Guy said:


> You're right, I went back to the label and it does mention AKI 87 and RON 91 as being the minimum requirements. I've gone through the whole Section 3.2 of the many volume owner's manual and the only other details I've found are in regard to alcholol and methanol. There is nothing in there about the car running better on premium AKI 91. I will try it out, just out of curiosity.


I will find it my manual and take pic for you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Boomer Guy said:


> You're right, I went back to the label and it does mention AKI 87 and RON 91 as being the minimum requirements. I've gone through the whole Section 3.2 of the many volume owner's manual and the only other details I've found are in regard to alcholol and methanol. There is nothing in there about the car running better on premium AKI 91. I will try it out, just out of curiosity.













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OK. I only read section 3.2 as referenced on this page. Thanks.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

After going to 2 different oreillys, I was able to find a set. These are just $3 each. Will let you guys know how they run. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shawn99/30V (Sep 28, 2000)

I replaced the spark plugs for wife's 2010 Golf 2.5 @ 30K with Autolite APP5224-4PK Double Platinum Spark Plug. It's now 130K still running great but it's got 100K so I wanted to change. Did a research and found this thread. I think I will stick with Autolite but the only thing is they changed the design and I kind of wanted to stick with the old one because it's been working great for me...


----------



## Ichabod0525 (Feb 11, 2018)

I was using the Autolite XP5224 at a 40K service because they were on a terrific sale and *Iridium * mmmmm. Left them in for 6K and took them out for the NGK, ZFR6T-11G (5960) and found a slight improvement in mileage around town and to my butt dyno, better idle smoothness. The removed 5224's metered 7K-8K ohms on removal. The 5960's were all around 1Kohm going in. I'll use the NGK's at the next service interval.

Edited to correct plug model #


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Ichabod0525 said:


> I was using the Autolite XP5224 at a 40K service because they were on a terrific sale and *Iridium * mmmmm. Left them in for 6K and took them out for the NGK, ZFR6T-11G and found a slight improvement in mileage around town and to my butt dyno, better idle smoothness. The removed 5224's metered 7K-8K ohms on removal. The 5224's were all around 1Kohm going in. I'll use the NGK's at the next service interval.


I’m also using the 5960. Very nice plug. The best one I’ve ran yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## -PLP- (Nov 21, 2021)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> I’m also using the 5960. Very nice plug. The best one I’ve ran yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's the gap?
1.0 mm?

I came across different values here... anywhere from 0.8 mm to 1.1 mm.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

-PLP- said:


> What's the gap?
> 1.0 mm?
> 
> I came across different values here... anywhere from 0.8 mm to 1.1 mm.


.044


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## -PLP- (Nov 21, 2021)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> .044


What is .044?
Missing leading ZERO, no UNITS... Oh, the Standard System... Lazy system... 

You meant 1.1 mm, right?


----------



## Shawn99/30V (Sep 28, 2000)

Shawn99/30V said:


> I replaced the spark plugs for wife's 2010 Golf 2.5 @ 30K with Autolite APP5224-4PK Double Platinum Spark Plug. It's now 130K still running great but it's got 100K so I wanted to change. Did a research and found this thread. I think I will stick with Autolite but the only thing is they changed the design and I kind of wanted to stick with the old one because it's been working great for me...


Update: I installed the Autolite APP5224 spark plugs and the car had frequent stalls, then I replaced then with the NGK 5960(recommended per NGK website based on my vehicle info), the car has been running fine since.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Shawn99/30V said:


> Update: I installed the Autolite APP5224 spark plugs and the car had frequent stalls, then I replaced then with the NGK 5960(recommended per NGK website based on my vehicle info), the car has been running fine since.


Nice move. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

After I bought my new-to-me 2008 Rabbit 2.5 with 142K miles on it, I immediately changed all the fluids and most of the at-life seals and sensors, plus deleted the vacuum pump. Here are the NGK parts I installed.

*Coils NGK – U5015 (48978) 

Spark plugs* * NGK – ZFR5AIX-11 (94553) Iridium IX*

It's been running perfectly for the last 11K miles. I can't actually say that it runs better than before the tune-up because I only put a few miles on it before then and I don't really have a comparison.

I am extremely pleased with the performance and gas mileage, not to mention that I have no leaks, no overheating and it burns no oil. The only special treatment it gets besides premium full synthetic fluids is that I let the engine warm up from a cold start until the rpm's drop to 800 so that it goes into gear without a bump.It has the 09G automatic transmission and I use Sport mode on all secondary roads.I only use Drive mode on the interstate. The manual Tiptronic stick is only used in the snow in mountains and occasionally, just for kicks but not that often. Even then, the mileage is in the mid-20's in town and mid-30's on the interstate and the rpm's are always up in the "fun-range".


----------



## Shawn99/30V (Sep 28, 2000)

Good job Boomer Guy, what fluid did you use for the AT transmission? Did you change the filter as well? I had dealer changed it 2x but noticed they didn't even change the filter according to the receipt. I might change mine next time when it's due.


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

Shawn99/30V said:


> Good job Boomer Guy, what fluid did you use for the AT transmission? Did you change the filter as well? I had dealer changed it 2x but noticed they didn't even change the filter according to the receipt. I might change mine next time when it's due.


*For the transmission, I originally used* 
ATF (*VW G 055 025 Spec*)* Aisin T-IV (Part No. ATF-0T4) - *Recommended by Aisin, the transmission manufacturer (non-synthetic).
ATF filter *ATP 15508 - *I found the original one to be spotless when I removed it, so I may not be changing this anymore at 30K intervals...maybe 60K intervals.
However, I have since switched to *Amsoil OE Synthetic ATF* - *Multi-Vehicle* because it is full synthetic and I have been using Amsoil products for over 30K years with no problems (no, I am not a dealer).

For the engine, I originally used
Motor oil (*VW 502 00 Spec*)* Castrol Edge European 5W-40* but I have since switched to *Amsoil FS Synthetic European - 5W-40*. 

Please note that I had no problems at all with the Aisin ATF or the Castrol motor oil. I simply prefer Amsoil because of my past experiences with Amsoil products. I would not hesitate to switch back to Aisin or Castrol. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

Boomer Guy said:


> *For the transmission, I originally used*
> ATF (*VW G 055 025 Spec*)* Aisin T-IV (Part No. ATF-0T4) - *Recommended by Aisin, the transmission manufacturer (non-synthetic).
> ATF filter *ATP 15508 - *I found the original one to be spotless when I removed it, so I may not be changing this anymore at 30K intervals...maybe 60K intervals.
> However, I have since switched to *Amsoil OE Synthetic ATF* - *Multi-Vehicle* because it is full synthetic and I have been using Amsoil products for over 30K years with no problems (no, I am not a dealer).
> ...


I forgot to mention that the Amsoil products meet the VW specs.


----------



## Shawn99/30V (Sep 28, 2000)

Thanks for you promp reply. I am drawn to use the Valvoline 1GA fully synthetic AT fluid. It says works with 90% of traditional AT but wonder if it works on my 2010 Golf. On the back of the bottle image states that it works with VW G 052-25-A2 and G 052-162-A1. Here is the link on Amazon


----------



## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

Shawn99/30V said:


> Thanks for you promp reply. I am drawn to use the Valvoline 1GA fully synthetic AT fluid. It says works with 90% of traditional AT but wonder if it works on my 2010 Golf. On the back of the bottle image states that it works with VW G 052-25-A2 and G 052-162-A1. Here is the link on Amazon


Compare the Valvoline VW spec for the ATF with the one in your owner's manual. Regardless of brands, full or non-synthetic, be sure the numbers match exactly. Don't risk your transmission. 

Likewise, be sure you only add the specific coolant to your system if necessary, according to the one that is already in it. If you decide to upgrade to a newer, later coolant be sure to NOT MIX it. My mechanic has a coolant purging machine that pushes the old coolant out of the discharge hose as it pulls in new coolant in the intake hose. The old and new coolants never mix and air is never introduced. He has been the lead mechanic at my garage and he owned my Rabbit for 10 years prior to my buying it from him. I do all the easy stuff and he does the difficult stuff.


----------



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> After going to 2 different oreillys, I was able to find a set. These are just $3 each. Will let you guys know how they run.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Update on these plugs. 

They’re great. More top end. Mileage increase. No pinging. I would run these on any 2.5. 

There’s a reason why VW eventually went to these later in the 2.5 lifespan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 11, 2014)

If you don't mind my asking, what performance modifications do you have installed to your 2.5L?



WtErKeWlEdUbbEr said:


> Update on these plugs.
> 
> They’re great. More top end. Mileage increase. No pinging. I would run these on any 2.5.
> 
> ...


----------

