# Ignition options (New to MegaSquirt)



## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

Hi, first of all I'm in the process of gathering money for my project but I want to make sure of what I can use and also what are the best options available.

I have an RD engine and a PL cylinder head. My idea is to mount up the 16V head on the 8V bottom end to drop down compression and run a turbo setup to around 20psi or whatever the setup is capable to handle. Initially I wanted to run CIS-E (I already have everything), but I have changed my mind since I have done a little reaserch on MS and I've noticed that it's cheap, reliable, and a damn good option. I know that the best options for a forced indution aplication are MS II and MS III, both control spark as far as I know.

With the idea of running MS I was thinking of running a crank position sensor and run 1.8T coils to each individual cylinder. However I do not know how to wire them or anything like that since I wanted to run a knock sensor along with a MSD 6AL or something similar but like I said I'm totally lost on the ignition setup and I do not know if it would be possible to run a setup like this. Could you guys help me out please?

Any good comments will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks :beer:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Actually you can control spark with MS1, MS2 or MS3. You can use all of them to control a single coil or a waste spark set up but to go coil on plug sequential you will need MS2 with the appropriate firmware and additional hardware or MS3 with a 3X expander board or some other add-on board. You'll also need a cam sensor as well as a crank sensor for the sequential. MS and an MSD 6AL is very easy if you wish to go that way. As far a knock sensor goes, it's possible with MS although not that many people use one. Your best bet for that with MS is a Knocksense unit.


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thank you so much for the reply now that I know that it's possible I have commited to run this setup. I have gathered these diagrams. Could anyone tell me how could I wire it? specially to run the trigger wheel and CAM sensor. Thank you.



















Thank you so much and sorry if I ask many questions but I'm just new to MS, programming and running different setups on cars.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Well the way things are set up on your COP diagram you won't need a cam position sensor only a missing tooth crank wheel and crank sensor. This is because the COPs are firing in waste spark mode so all we need to know is where TDC is. I have 36-1 tooth wheels available that bolt onto a VW crank sprocket. They can go on 2 ways... with a spacer between the spocket and the wheel which then requires some fairly serious playing around with crank pulleys to get belt alignment right. Or I can machine it so that it bolts directly to the crank sprocket between the pulley and the sprocket and you just shim the rest of the pulleys out 1/8 inch. You'll still need a crank position sensor and a bracket to mount it. I use a sensor from a 4.0L SOHC Ford Explorer or a 3.0L Ford Ranger. Both work well but the 4.0 sensor uses a standard Bosch style fuel injector connector and is a little easier to mount.

To run an MSD 6AL with MS is even easier especially with a crank sensor and missing tooth wheel.
Have the MS setup to direct fire a single coil, so you'll need a VB921 or BIP373 IGBT installed on Q16 on the V3.0 or V3.57 mainboard. Use the wheel and crank sensor for rpm input to MS, hook the pin 36 wire to the white wire on the MSD, the rest of the MSD is wired normally (power, ground and coil) and then follow the software instructions in the MSExtra manual. Been there done that worked VERY well.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

NAVI51 said:


> I have an RD engine and a PL cylinder head. My idea is to mount up the 16V head on the 8V bottom end to drop down compression and run a turbo setup to around 20psi or whatever the setup is capable to handle.


you still need 2L 16v parts to make the 16v head 8v bottom end combo work, at which point youre better off just using a complete 2L 16v...

if it were my money/project id run an msd box, ms1 (or ms2 if youre after a little more resolution/features) and a distributor :beer:

youll have a hard time running wasted spark or COP on that bottom end, as it has no trigger wheel, and i strongly dislike the aftermarket options for adding trigger wheels - besides theres really no good reason to go through the trouble of an aftermarket trigger wheel (im all for using them when theyre available on your motor stock) when you can just use a stock distributor.


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## tg60dd (Nov 23, 2005)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> you still need 2L 16v parts to make the 16v head 8v bottom end combo work, at which point youre better off just using a complete 2L 16v...
> 
> if it were my money/project id run an msd box, ms1 (or ms2 if youre after a little more resolution/features) and a distributor :beer:
> 
> youll have a hard time running wasted spark or COP on that bottom end, as it has no trigger wheel, and i strongly dislike the aftermarket options for adding trigger wheels - besides theres really no good reason to go through the trouble of an aftermarket trigger wheel (im all for using them when theyre available on your motor stock) when you can just use a stock distributor.


How bout switching to an ABA block for the crank trigger wheel? I searched for RD block code with no luck, (what is it out of??) I'm assuming he will build it as well, so why not ABA... I've been trying to find more info on this exact setup.:beer:

To the OP, I've heard theres a couple of guys on here running Hyabusa COP's, they seem to be more reliable than the stock 1.8T's and don't need to be bolted down.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

i think the RD is one of the earlier gti/gli 8vs... aka boat anchors :laugh:

id still gun for a full 16v, but the ABA may be a good option, but again you still need 2L 16v parts to make the conversion work


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

I have been thinking between getting the entire 16V engine which would be around $500 or getting an ABA block and use the PL cylinder head which would be about $500 as well since the guy won't just sell me the AB block. The RD engine came out on the early CIS-E 8V MK2 engines from 86-88 I believe. Mine is from an 86 GTI.

This setup will be run with forced induction (turbo) that why I want to run something pretty precise such as independent coils and stuff, and I know that dizzys are capable of being ran with turbos but I also want to give a clean and different look to the engine bay by running a triggered ignition :beer:


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> but again you still need 2L 16v parts to make the conversion work


im just gonna keep repeating myself


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

lol Yeah I have seen the ABA/16V parts thread on the hybrid forum but those parts that I would need to make it work basically I was going to replace them anyways since I will do an entire overhaul to the engine anyways :thumbup:


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

my thinking was if your hunting down 2L 16v intermediate shaft, timing gear, oil pump drive, etc that you may as well just buy a whole 2L 16v...


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## tg60dd (Nov 23, 2005)

NAVI51 said:


> I have been thinking between getting the entire 16V engine which would be around $500 or getting an ABA block and use the PL cylinder head which would be about $500 as well since the guy won't just sell me the AB block. The RD engine came out on the early CIS-E 8V MK2 engines from 86-88 I believe. Mine is from an 86 GTI.
> 
> This setup will be run with forced induction (turbo) that why I want to run something pretty precise such as independent coils and stuff, and I know that dizzys are capable of being ran with turbos but I also want to give a clean and different look to the engine bay by running a triggered ignition :beer:


Sounds like you and I are after the same thing. I ran my ABA 16vt for the past two years on 
distro. and it was no prob..reliable, didn't even leak. But like you said, more acurate spark and control is to be gained. I've pulled my engine for some work to the bay, going for the clean look.

Finding a 9A block would be your easiest, around here there not to be found, so I did ABA.
Going ABA the only thing to source is 2L 16V IM shaft with gear and the crank gear. Then pistons, plus resize the rod for the wrist pin...$$$$$:laugh:


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## tg60dd (Nov 23, 2005)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> my thinking was if your hunting down 2L 16v intermediate shaft, timing gear, oil pump drive, etc that you may as well just buy a whole 2L 16v...


Def the easier route if they are available around him. I couldn't find one anywhere @ the time.


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

Yeah well the thing is that my original idea was to run the RD on CIS-E Turbo, I even got a white pearl pain job on the engine which looks awesome, but I want to have good performance on my car. I have a set og G60 pistons which I wanna use no matter what and I also have the rods but if I go with a 16V block, I would only be able to use the G60 pistons and probably get rods from another source or use the stock 16V rods since they are longer than the G60 rods. I do also want to do knife edge my crankshaft and I have a light weight flywheel already. Does anyone know what kind of HP or torque are we talking about here with the things that I listed before?

Thanks for all the great input I really appreciate the help and time of each individual to help:beer::beer::beer:


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## tg60dd (Nov 23, 2005)

NAVI51 said:


> Yeah well the thing is that my original idea was to run the RD on CIS-E Turbo, I even got a white pearl pain job on the engine which looks awesome, but I want to have good performance on my car. I have a set og G60 pistons which I wanna use no matter what and I also have the rods but if I go with a 16V block, I would only be able to use the G60 pistons and probably get rods from another source or use the stock 16V rods since they are longer than the G60 rods. I do also want to do knife edge my crankshaft and I have a light weight flywheel already. Does anyone know what kind of HP or torque are we talking about here with the things that I listed before?
> 
> Thanks for all the great input I really appreciate the help and time of each individual to help:beer::beer::beer:


I would first strongly suggest to try to source a full 2L 16v like VCG said, or just a 9A block.( which is the 2L 16V block) The RD most likely doesn't have a forged crank, or oil squirters, both the 9A and ABA do..( OBDI ABA) Also, the rods in both are fairly stout and been known to take high boost well. _Not to mention they both have the trigger wheel your needing for your spark setup your wanting to run. _ Either are a much better starting point over the block your trying to make work. A well built block is your platform to build from, do it right the first time, you'll be happy you did.:thumbup:


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

the 9a does not have a trigger wheel, thats the only downside, but i would argue that its not needed


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

A 9A will be then :thumbup:. Now, are there anything else you guys would recommend to do as far as MS? or which setup do you guys think would be the best for my application, MS1, MS1 or MS3?

Thanks once again:thumbup:


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

ms1 or ms2 with -extra code is a good option


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

tg60dd said:


> I would first strongly suggest to try to source a full 2L 16v like VCG said, or just a 9A block.( which is the 2L 16V block) The RD most likely doesn't have a forged crank, or oil squirters, both the 9A and ABA do..( OBDI ABA) Also, the rods in both are fairly stout and been known to take high boost well. _Not to mention they both have the trigger wheel your needing for your spark setup your wanting to run. _ Either are a much better starting point over the block your trying to make work. A well built block is your platform to build from, do it right the first time, you'll be happy you did.:thumbup:


Actually ALL early (OBD1 ABA and earlier) 4 cylinder VWs have forged crankshafts. And 9A blocks don't have oil squirters, they don't clear the long stroke crank. That's why the ABA is a tall deck. The PL (1.8 16V), PG (g60) and OBD1 ABA have oil squirters, only the ABA has a trigger wheel in the block.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

NAVI51 said:


> A 9A will be then :thumbup:. Now, are there anything else you guys would recommend to do as far as MS? or which setup do you guys think would be the best for my application, MS1, MS1 or MS3?
> 
> Thanks once again:thumbup:


I like MS2 with extra code personally, but there is nothing wrong with MS1. MS3 still isn't really out yet but when it is, MS3 will be my preference, with a 3X expander board if I want sequential or more than 2 or 3 add-ons (fans, A/C, boost control, nitrous, etc...)


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

It depends on what you 'need' it to do. For starting off MS1 on extra code will run almost any combo, be pretty simple to set up and have a lot of support from people that have 'been there done that' with MS1/extra. As you want to add features (semi seq, seq, complicated AE, special modes for ITBs, etc) MS2 and MS3 will pay off more.


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

So a MS2 with extra code would be a pretty good setup on the 2.0 16V engine block? I have seen that some people get a main crank seal that has a crank sensor, they are from Europe does anyone know where I could source one out?

Thanks :beer:


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## tg60dd (Nov 23, 2005)

NAVI51 said:


> So a MS2 with extra code would be a pretty good setup on the 2.0 16V engine block? I have seen that some people get a main crank seal that has a crank sensor, they are from Europe does anyone know where I could source one out?
> 
> Thanks :beer:


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3516017-16v-MS-coilpack....but-no-crank-trigger-!

Check this out


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks for the link I will be looking forward to use one of those.

Thanks to everyone for the very useful help :thumbup:


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Actually ALL early (OBD1 ABA and earlier) 4 cylinder VWs have forged crankshafts. And 9A blocks don't have oil squirters, they don't clear the long stroke crank. That's why the ABA is a tall deck. The PL (1.8 16V), PG (g60) and OBD1 ABA have oil squirters, only the ABA has a trigger wheel in the block.


My 2.0 9A has oil squirters, check out the first pic in my build thread:beer:


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## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

I was thinking of getting a 16V 1.8 (81mm of bore) with oil squiters and get a set of Audi 5000 Turbo pistons which are forged and have piston oilers. How do you guys think it will behave?


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