# mk1 caddy (gti) wont start..help



## xbig_headx (Mar 25, 2003)

wonder if i should replace my icm or my hall sensor,

car got wet from a car wash... 

still ran but felt like only on 2 cylinders... put a new cap, rotor, plugs, and wires.. checked the timing and it made it fixed nothing.

now it wont run... pulled the 5th injector and turned it over .. looks to spray fine so im guess i have fuel. then disconnected the lead wire from the distributor and it had spark. tested the compression and all cylinders were at 140 psi other than #1 which was at 135..so im guessing thats not a problem.

decided to hook a timing light to each wire and noticed that the light only flashed on the #1 cylinder.. so im not getting spark on 2-4. 

gonna try to find a test for the hall and icm.. 

does anyone have a link.. been searching but have found nothing

any thoughts on which one it could be?


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## xbig_headx (Mar 25, 2003)

oh and the plugs are a 

black color ..dry NOT wet


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

I don't think this is a bad Hall, unless three of the four 'shutters' have broken off the reluctor. That seems really unlikely as it's safely shielded from all harm inside the distributor.

In my experience, Hall senders are either good or bad. There is only one pickup in the distributor, so a bad Hall _should_ affect all cylinders equally.

Reluctor:










This condition started immediately after a wash? You are looking for things which don't take kindly to water. Could you have introduced some water to the fuel system? When you fiddled with the wires, did you put them back on the dist cap in the proper order-- 1,3,4,2(CW rotation)? Is the coil wire on the center tower of the cap? Inside the cap-- is the center spring loaded 'button' in place? Try drying the inside of the cap with compressed air, and dry out the connector for the Hall unit, too.

I'm thinking on my feet here-- perhaps more later.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

dkfackler said:


> I don't think this is a bad Hall, unless three of the four 'shutters' have broken off the reluctor. That seems really unlikely as it's safely shielded from all harm inside the distributor.


Can't say if it is your wording, understanding or just what, but what you said here is what one might call off key, incorrect might be better. If the reluctor were to have even one bent or broken shutter it would be bad but that does not mean the Hall sender would be. The Hall sender is the electrical part that the reluctor (shutter wheel) passes through. If one were to become bent or broken it is likely the Hall would also become damaged as there is not a lot of wiggle room for the reluctor to pass through the Hall. The shutter wheel (reluctor) causes the Hall to function but is not "part" of the Hall sender per say.

But the "something got wet" advice is correct I believe. Even without trying to troubleshoot just what, it would seem logical that if you wash the car/engine and it begins to run/start bad then something got wet or is effected by being wet/damp. What is hard to say, but drying out the ignition distributor is a good start as is removing many of the electrical connectors and making sure they are dry too. Would be real good if you could just dry out the entire engine bay, but that would be tough I think.


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

WaterWheels said:


> Can't say if it is your wording, understanding or just what, but what you said here is what one might call off key, incorrect might be better. If the reluctor were to have even one bent or broken shutter it would be bad but that does not mean the Hall sender would be. The Hall sender is the electrical part that the reluctor (shutter wheel) passes through. If one were to become bent or broken it is likely the Hall would also become damaged as there is not a lot of wiggle room for the reluctor to pass through the Hall. The shutter wheel (reluctor) causes the Hall to function but is not "part" of the Hall sender per say.


Wheels-- I agree with you. What I mean is that the Hall effect generator either works or it doesn't. It wouldn't fire only one cylinder unless the reluctor-- which actually 'switches' the Hall effect on/off were damaged.

I have replaced a damaged reluctor on a Chrysler product. One of the shutters had broken off, causing the engine to miss on one cylinder. Granted there was more room inside the Chrysler distributor.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

my vote would be for bad plugs, or bad wires.. thats the only reason i can see as to why you are not getting spark on 2 cyls..

pull all the plugs, lay them on the head electrode facing up, with the main body grounded, just like if it were in the car.. crank the engine over, look at the plugs, watch for spark.

or else its a bad coil, but idk how that would only make 2 cylinders missfire..

FWIW, the only VWs i own that i will take thru a high pressure car wash, are my diesels.. theres no plug wires and distributor to get wet..

when i wash my gassers under the hood, i take the plug wires, cap, rotor off, then put a zippy over the exposed dizzy.. then i wash it, being really careful around the distributor..


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## xbig_headx (Mar 25, 2003)

little more info here.. 

One of the previous owners swapped a 1.8l 8v engine from a 83/84 gti into this truck.

all these items are new

cap
rotor
plug wires
plugs all with the proper gap

I have the #1 wire plugged in the correct spot..facing the #1 marking on the distributor.

I took the main/lead wire off the distributor cap ..still attached to the coil.. and i have good spark.

Here is what I have to test the wires at the end of each wire (where the plug obviously attaches)










I only get spark is on the #1 wire.

I do not get spark on # 2 #3 #4

So I think I have spark coming from the coil to the distributor.

I for some reason do not have spark to each plug... The cap is new.. the rotor is new, heck I even took the old cap and tried it with the new rotor..took the old rotor and tried it with the new cap.. and just used the whole old set up.

I have been looking at other peoples set-up and I noticed I am missing the dust shield and this metal cover that surrounds the distributor cap.. are these needed..?

Today I also got 2 different ICM (ignition control modules) and tried them..and nothing...

I already ordered a hall sensor so I will hold off on putting that in until I try out some more of these suggestions..

Thanks so much for the help this far!

Here are the parts I'm missing









suppression shield assembly
shield plate


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

So it would seem that washing might not have caused the problem, or then again it still could have. That you tested at the end of each individual spark plug wire with a tester like that really narrows things down, but still creates a mystery of sorts. One thing for sure is that the Hall is not your problem, nor is the ICM as they function in kind of an on/off fashion and not per cylinder. If you are getting spark at one cylinder, the same one each time, then they are doing their jobs. If the reluctor is not damaged in a way to block three of the four windows, would be real hard to have that happen, then it kind of boils down to just a few things. Distributor cap, sparkplug wires or the plugs themselves. I know you said they were new, but there is no other possibilities really. The plugs can be kind of ruled out also as you used a tester and did not rely on the plugs themselves. If the coil produces the high voltage and the wire from the coil to the cap is OK then those are the only things left. Plug wires pushed down tight? Inside the cap and distributor all nice and dry? Cap sitting down correctly on the distributor housing? No tiny black lines visible inside the cap? No cracks in the plug wires, for what ever reason? You can list all the parts of the ignition system and question if they working or not, but there is only a limited amount of parts that distribute that high voltage to the different cylinders. That shield is not needed for the ignition to function. It only suppresses electronic or electromagnetic noise from things like your car radio and sensitive electronic parts, later it was dropped.


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

xbig_headx said:


> I have been looking at other peoples set-up and I noticed I am missing the dust shield and this metal cover that surrounds the distributor cap.. are these needed..?


The short answer is: No.

It'll run fine without the dust shield and metal can.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

xbig_headx said:


> I have been looking at other peoples set-up and I noticed I am missing the dust shield and this metal cover that surrounds the distributor cap.. are these needed..?


To be honest I missed the part about the shield (dust shield). I know VW refers to it as a dust shield but I feel it does more that protect anything in the distributor from dust. It works also to deflect or protect the Hall from the spark energy just above it in the cap. Does the same with points ignition in that it protects the points from all those sparks that happens above them all the time. There really is not much dust floating around in the distributor and/or cap to shield anything from anyhow. I would at least get and install that part, it's cheap anyway.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

WaterWheels said:


> To be honest I missed the part about the shield (dust shield). I know VW refers to it as a dust shield but I feel it does more that protect anything in the distributor from dust. It works also to deflect or protect the Hall from the spark energy just above it in the cap. Does the same with points ignition in that it protects the points from all those sparks that happens above them all the time. There really is not much dust floating around in the distributor and/or cap to shield anything from anyhow. I would at least get and install that part, it's cheap anyway.


that RFI shield/suppressor has nothing to do with how a car runs, just makes the ratio quieter..

ive owned a few cars that were supposed to have these, they run fine without.. my GTI doesnt care if it has the shield installed or not, it still runs the same.


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## xbig_headx (Mar 25, 2003)

here is some information on my timing.... which i keep on checking

i noticed that i do not have a dimple on the inside of my cam gear but a notch, 

then i also noticed that i have a dimple on the outside of the cam gear.. ive been reading other timing posts all over the web and it seems that the notch should be on the outside??

i know vw did a million different versions of stuff so maybe its still right but now im wondering if one of the previous owners took the gear off and rotated it... long shot but just seeing if anyone else has seen this?

pictures below of my current timing

flywheel









cam









distributor









anyone know?


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

Camshaft:

When the notch is aligned as in your picture, look thru the oil filler cap. Both camshaft lobes for the nr 1 cylinder should be pointing up.

I think you have the wrong mark as TDC.

See this:










Not exact, but you get the idea. TDC is actually a '0' stamped or cast into the flywheel edge. My MK1 Caddy has a 3 deg ATDC notch a bit clockwise from the TDC mark.


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## xbig_headx (Mar 25, 2003)

got it all figured out, ordered that hall sensor .. so i decided to take the distributor apart today to get ready for the new part.. 

well when i got it apart i noticed that the reluctor was way out of wack... turns out the shaft and pin that hold it in place is all stripped out or worn out. 










got a distributor from my buddy and installed it and dang...started right up! 

thanks for all the help!


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

xbig_headx said:


> ...turns out the shaft and pin that hold it in place is all stripped out or worn out.


 Wow. Never seen that before.


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