# My F21T from FrankenTurbo... on its way!!!



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*F21T from FrankenTurbo... Build Thread!!!*

Hi Guys,

I thought should start my build thread and my experience with my golf Mk4 1.8T AWD engine code.

I have fair mods on the car:

Forge 007p DV
Oil catch can
Forge TIP
 N249, SAI Delete with IE blank off
All ECS poly bushes
Poly dogbone
ECS stg1 Clutch kit
All vacuum and Boost hoses in Silicon
TT225 front and rear brakes disks and Calipers
K&N CAI Typhoon
42DD O2 Spacer
JDM FMIC
3” DownPipe with 2.5” custom Catback
Walbro 255 intank fuel pump
MBC Overboost kit (To be installed)

I had on my car RP K04-001 bought from CTS Turbo that blown after 6 months I had on my car without being remapped and I had one of the worst Customer service experience with CTS  and I had some posts here and they didn’t replied on my email event to claim for warranty, but I think they don’t sell RP Turbos now so they knew it is a crap umpkin:.

During my search I saw FrankenTurbos F4T and I wanted to have one but since my ECU is a narrowband and I live in Beirut/Lebanon Unitronic and none of the Generic Tuner (Revo, APR, Upsolute,…) had a file for narrow band and Doug helped me a lot to find a solution other than going the wideband change route because it is a bit hard to do it from here (at least for me) but it didn’t happened.

Now after 7 months, I found a custom tuner that can remap my car with WINOSL Software with RR, so Doug will provide me with the new F21T with Genesis 550cc injectors and their USRT harness adapter.

At the same time Cassidy from IE helped me a lot to find the good product to renew the internal gaskets, pistons rings and Rods Bearing (ACL Race/calico coated) of my engine since I had some low compression numbers, and they shipped them to me last week.

My aim is a DD car with 255~260 WHP car (290~300 hp) and from the review I saw here I am getting the F21T.

I think I should get the F21T in the coming couple of weeks (the payment will be sent tomorrow or the day after ) and I want to take this opportunity to thank Doug for the GREAT, AMAZING, and EXCELLENT support and service he provided me. Doug you are the man :beer:, and I have never dealt with someone like you, Thank you :thumbup:.

I am so excited to receive the F21T and tune it, my next step (after 6~7month) I am planning to get W/M from USRT and wide band ECU and maybe I will go for Unitronic file if I didn’t like the custom tune.

Picture for Fun:














































Thank you guys and your comments are well appreciated,

Fouad


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

good luck with the build brother. 
Keep us updated !!:thumbup::beer:


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## Mr_Long (Dec 9, 2003)

:beer:


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Your lucky. I've had guys with the RP Turbo not last more than a day after a reflash :facepalm:


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

JohnnyLlama said:


> Your lucky. I've had guys with the RP Turbo not last more than a day after a reflash :facepalm:


Well aren't you the cheery one lately..


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Rod Ratio said:


> Well aren't you the cheery one lately..


Lol there isn't a thing to be cheery about in this forum.

Life is treating me decently right now, though, so I can't complain


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

JohnnyLlama said:


> Lol there isn't a thing to be cheery about in this forum.
> 
> Life is treating me decently right now, though, so I can't complain


Dude....

Srs bznz vortex is not


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## ArcticFox (Nov 4, 2005)

I had an RP K04 lasted what 20 miles on the first one. The replacement made it 100 miles. I'd give eBay a shot before those worthless pieces of metal again.

Anyways, best of luck with the F21. If your going with a custom tuner. Have him tune it at a Dyno. Pay the time at the dyno and you'll get the best results. Its worth the money in the long run to get the powerband your paying for.


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

I'm glad I went with the F21, and a custom tune. We spent about a week on and off tuning it. I made 261.7whp and 290lbs.

Well worth the time and effort. Good luck!


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## hallkbrd (Apr 8, 2000)

Looking at an F21 with Motoza as well. Best of luck to you! :beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

War Machine said:


> I'm glad I went with the F21, and a custom tune. We spent about a week on and off tuning it. I made 261.7whp and 290lbs.
> 
> Well worth the time and effort. Good luck!


Was that on 91oct Canadian gas?


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Was that on 91oct Canadian gas?


Yep :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I was at ForceFed Engineering last night and they invited me to datalog a K03 Mk6 car running Uni Stage 2. The car pulled over 250 to the wheels after SAE correction. Yup, I thought, the F21T basically puts you on parity with a well-sorted TSI. Maybe a touch faster up top. That's a pretty good metric for what our turbo does. Bam, your car is just as fast as any bolt-on TSI car.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Doug - do you think the F23 can hold it's own with TSI K04 numbers? I guess it depends on supporting mods, but possibly?


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I was at ForceFed Engineering last night and they invited me to datalog a K03 Mk6 car running Uni Stage 2. The car pulled over 250 to the wheels after SAE correction. Yup, I thought, the F21T basically puts you on parity with a well-sorted TSI. Maybe a touch faster up top. That's a pretty good metric for what our turbo does. Bam, your car is just as fast as any bolt-on TSI car.


Don't forget the MK3 Chassis :laugh: I'm very happy with your product doug, and thanks for all your help, but send me some stickers! :laugh:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

JohnnyLlama said:


> Your lucky. I've had guys with the RP Turbo not last more than a day after a reflash :facepalm:


Do you think i am lucky to pay 1000$ for a RP turbo shipped and it blown without being remapped after 6 month??? well i don't  especially that CTS Clay recomended for me and not even a penny was paid back!!!



ArcticFox said:


> I had an RP K04 lasted what 20 miles on the first one. The replacement made it 100 miles. I'd give eBay a shot before those worthless pieces of metal again.
> 
> Anyways, best of luck with the F21. If your going with a custom tuner. Have him tune it at a Dyno. Pay the time at the dyno and you'll get the best results. Its worth the money in the long run to get the powerband your paying for.


Indeed mate, even ebay turbo will perform better than a RP turbo... i am wondering why CTS sold these crap???

Now i am exited to get this F21T ... especially dealing with the Amazin Doug... Guys you cannot imagine how this guy is helping me from USA till Beirut!!! even he is gonna get me the injectors and harness... Great Doug:beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

please guys correct me if i a wrong but i think if our MK4 is achieving a 260 WHP it should be quicker than a Stage 2 MK5 or MK6, right?

Today, I ordered a power gasket newsouth and a quick shifter of a TT too from ECS...  I heard that the newsouth power gasket can can the IAT cool nad an additional 5hp, right :beer:


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## hallkbrd (Apr 8, 2000)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> please guys correct me if i a wrong but i think if our MK4 is achieving a 260 WHP it should be quicker than a Stage 2 MK5 or MK6, right?
> 
> Today, I ordered a power gasket newsouth and a quick shifter of a TT too from ECS...  I heard that the newsouth power gasket can can the IAT cool nad an additional 5hp, right :beer:


 MK4 vs MK5/6 - If it weighs less, then sure - better power / weight ratio. I do know that 260 WHP in my "heavy" Corrado is much better than on your MK4.  Of course the MK1 guys will say the same thing against mine... Less than 10 lbs per HP is fun!

Now Power Gaskets.... 5HP is a pipe dream except in certain special cases. I manufactured these and sold them a LONG time ago, and did extensive testing. 

Bottom line was, if you have a marginal IC (such as stock in the MK4 - essentially what the G60 came with), it will help some. And if you run fast, then sit (heat soak) and have to run fast again (e.g. drag racing, dyno testing) - they really can help. BUT... if you have a good IC, and keep moving on the street or track, your intake should already be right around ambient - I know mine is.

BTW, same goes for those silly CAI's with forced induction motors. Save your money and get a good IC, as a few degrees cooler before a turbo is meaningless.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey Guys, some news - Ordered from ECS: 

- Turbo Oil Line Gasket - ReturnES#1591 
- Turbo Oil Line Gasket 
- Sealing Washer (14.2x17.9x1.5) - Priced Each ES#11684 
- Copper Sealing Washer (12x15.5) - Priced Each 
- Turbocharger Stud (M10x35) - Priced Each ES#3385  
- NUTES#467648 
- Performance Intake Manifold GasketES#1393 
- TT Short Shift Kit - With Shifter Cable EndES#648 
- Magnetic Oil Drain Plug - Priced Each (14x1.5)ES#5385 


Injectors Ordered from USRT (Many thanks to Quintin and of course Doug) 

- Genesis II 500cc  

In addition, i passed by my Pro-Mechanic and he gave me 3" MAF housing for FREE!!! 

Thanks once again for Doug for helping me in this Build UP, Doug:beer: you are the man!!! 

Cheers,


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Doug:beer: you are the man!!!


 ...actually, apparently I'm not: USRT still hasn't sent me a bill to pay for your injectors. Here I am, waiving Benjamins under their noses. And nothing. :what:


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## Dave1.8Towner (Jun 13, 2009)

Soooo basicly... the F21T is a sort of replacement for the K04?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> ...actually, apparently I'm not: USRT still hasn't sent me a bill to pay for your injectors. Here I am, waiving Benjamins under their noses. And nothing. :what:


:what: That's strange!!!
I just got a PM from [email protected] a few Hours ago saying:

```
Alright then 500cc Genesis II's are on the way!
```
And I asked for the G2 500cc since I am going Custom tune and the G2 are easier to be tuned.

PLease keep me posted to any news. The IE goods just arrived .

Cheers,

Sas


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Dave1.8Towner said:


> Soooo basicly... the F21T is a sort of replacement for the K04?


The F21 is better than the average ko4...


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Wire transfer sent  and i hope to get the F21T in 2~3 weeks!!!!
:beer: for Doug...


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*F21T FrankenTurbo on AWD engine code 2000 / Build Thread!!!*

Happy easter everybody!!! :beer:

So the F21T, G2 500cc Injectors shipped to me yesterday, now I want to get R Pedals + dead pedal, R shifter, and R steering wheel will post pic when i get them...

so during the weekend i was playing a bit with the car and I relocated the DV to the cold side, but every time i do it I got that Code "Pressure drop between DV and Turbo" and my car refuse to boost more than 5 PSI!!! Is there any reason for that??? and what does it mean??? Limp Mode???

Cheers,:beer:


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

Hey, I was reading your post last night about upgrading to the K04-001 on some other overseas forum. 

My K03s recently blew up and I was going to go to the K04-001 APR Kit but everyone on this forum is persuading me to go the F21T route.

I currently have quite a few supporting mod. My car is an 05 GLI with BFI Stage 1 Engine mount kit, APR Full load (91,93,100). 2.5 TBE.

Do you think it would be better to go with the F21T? I guess you got a bunk K04 from CTS so that sucks. I was looking at the Warranty support for the Borg Warners and they have a lot of requirements in order to validate your warranty. That's one of the reason I'm back to thinking about going the F21T route. 

Did you like the K04-001 over your K03s while it lasted? The main reason I was going with the APR K04-001 kit is because I already have the APR programming and APR is doing a sale for the Kit for $1,619.99 through April. Another reason is I could reuse my APR TIP instead of buying a new one. But with the Frankenturbo I could get the whole kit for $1000 and that would leave me with a lot of money for tuning and a TIP.

Some of the guys on the forums said I could run the K04 software file with this setup but I guess most people suggest Unitronic Stage 2 tuning. Any ideas on the best tuning setup for our 1.8t's with the F21T? Would I need the MBC for the N75 if I were to go with the K04 Software file? I guess I would need the MBC for my current stage 1 APR tune. 

I'm pretty confused about which route to go. I would be more inclined to go with the F21T if this wasn't my only car. Since you have a very similar setup and went the K03s to K04 route I figured you might be able to assist.

Apparently I would want bigger injectors with the F21T based off the FAQ on frankenturbos website. I guess I would also need a VR maf housing which is like 20-50 bucks from what I read. Thanks for any help!


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey Cmore, it is so simple.

The ko4-oo1 will give you around 255 - 260 crank horse power will the f21t will get you around 290 (260 whp)
And dont forget that Frankenturbo and Doug is very helpful guy and his warrenty is process is great and there is a "no fault chra" for 2years... in addition, the warrenty is for 2years.
Now u r saying the APR KIT on sale will be 1620$ while f21t is 999$ that including exh. Manifold, a new Tip, and the turbo and u can get a 3" maf of an rs6 or vr6. So you are saving 620$ u can get USRT 500cc Genesis 2 and do a custom map for the remaining 620$ and your car will get a 260whp....
My recommendation for u is go and get an F21T ASAP, and forget about that ko4-oo1 that you will have to squeeze it to get the power out of it.....
Cheers,:beer:


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Hey Cmore, it is so simple.
> 
> The ko4-oo1 will give you around 255 - 260 crank horse power will the f21t will get you around 290 (260 whp)
> And dont forget that Frankenturbo and Doug is very helpful guy and his warrenty is process is great and there is a "no fault chra" for 2years... in addition, the warrenty is for 2years.
> ...


Thanks for the info LEBGTIMK4. After reading the Warranty requirements for the Borg Warner K04-001 I'll probably go with the F21T instead. I guess all I really need is the MBC if I don't do programming right away. It seems like a pretty straight forward install so hopefully I can go this route. It seems like a much better bang for the buck than the APR K04-001 kit. As long as it provides reliable HP for a daily driver it seems like it will give me quite a bit more room for HP improvement. From what I've heard you should be able to safely push about 260 whp without doing any bottom end work on our 1.8t's. Does that sound accurate? I just want to be able to drive again. I'm going to have to get a rental car soon while I wait to get my car repaired. Also, do you know what programming you're going to go with and are you going to run the N75 MBC. And where do you control the MBC from? Inside the car or adjusted from the engine bay? Still doing research and trying to learn a lot while working my arse off. Kinda sux.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Do you have a FMIC or Smic, at least you should think of upgrading ur Smic. In addition, after a blowing turbo you have to clean your boost system including IC pipes.

You can get an overboost kit from Frankenturbo for 50$ and it comes with installation documents... I have it on my laptop but currently i am in Milano Italy attending the International Furniture show and i am reverting for my phone that's why i can send it to you, but it is a peace of cake and you use it from the engine bay not from inside the car.

I believe the the best tune for F21T would be a custom tune or Eurodyne since it will be the only way u can extract power from it.

Anf yes, with the right boost level and soft tune your engine will be ok.

CHeers,


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

The best tune for the f21 will be from Gonzotuning.com
I've been there done that with other companies and Gonzo is the best hand down. You're not gonna get near the power and smootness from Maestro unless you really know what you're doing...


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

I decided to go with the F21T setup. I'll be doing more research as I move along on what tuning and injectors work best for my setup. So far I've heard quite a bit of different information regarding tuning. I guess as long as your running the N75 with MBC you should be able to run just about any tune you want. Ideally you'd want a tune where you don't need to use an MBC so we'll see. I've heard good things about Unitronic Stage 2 on this setup.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

You want the frankenturbo specific version of the unitronic tune

There is also a good eurodyne tune and a good gonzo tune for it

Genesis II 500 injectors are the direction you want to go


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

groggory said:


> You want the frankenturbo specific version of the unitronic tune
> 
> There is also a good eurodyne tune and a good gonzo tune for it
> 
> Genesis II 500 injectors are the direction you want to go


I placed my order for the F21T today. Doug from Frakenturbo Recommended Eurodyne or Unitronic. For now I'm just going to stick with my APR stage 1 tune and use the MBC that I added to the F21T kit to control boost. I'm thinking this should be a good setup to get me up and running. I'll look into the injectors and tune later. Can't wait to get this bad boy installed! :thumbup:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*post received*

So Mr. Postman just dropped the below..

































Thanks Doug for everything should be able to install it begining of next Month, cannot wait for that..
Cheers,:beer:


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> So Mr. Postman just dropped the below..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You got a sticker with yours?! lol I've been bugging him for stickers... Nothing! haha


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

War Machine said:


> You got a sticker with yours?! lol I've been bugging him for stickers... Nothing! haha


I got loads of stickers...


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

Sweetness LEBGTIMK4! This is getting my psyched up big time. My F21T is set to arrive at the shop doing my work next Monday. Nice to see the whole package and what the TIP looks like! Looks like a high quality TIP 4 sure! :thumbup:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Wideband conversion!!!*

The TIP is nice, even i have a Forge one to be on sale now. The kit look very nice no shaft play and the exh. mani looks high quality, we have to see after the installation.

Now, i went to a local VW second hand dealer and he can give me a Wideband ECU for 100$ an Immo decoding for 50$ and a second hand Wideband O2 for 50$, but i have to figure it out how to solve the wiring issue and the VVT. I don't want to spend any more $$$. I know that raceline does a wiring conversion but it cost 125$ + Shipping to Lebanon if they ship ...

I couldn't find any thread with picture of the entire conversion, so any help is well appreciated.

Thank you in advance,


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

So guys, no one wants to help concerning a wideband conversion? I search most of the forums and none has picture... i find it hard to recognize the pin numbers, how i should know pin# 51 or else?


Meanwhile another postman drop me the below:









ECS magnatic oil drain











Newsouth power gasket









TT225 SHORT SHIFTER









Turbo installation accessories










So i will be waiting some help guys for the wideband conversion...

Thanks in advance,


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Audizine bro


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Rod Ratio said:


> Audizine bro


I Searched there but no luck, so any link is appreciated.
Cheers,


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I think I have some good wideband conversion links in the FAQ here


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

groggory said:


> I think I have some good wideband conversion links in the FAQ here


Indeed Greg i read ur FAQ but the posts has no longer the photos hence i cannot recognize the pins, so when they mention pin # 52 i don't know what they mean, so any suggestions?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Indeed Greg i read ur FAQ but the posts has no longer the photos hence i cannot recognize the pins, so when they mention pin # 52 i don't know what they mean, so any suggestions?


The pins are labeled in the bentley. They are also labeled on the connector I think if you look really closely


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

i just installed mine here is my DIY should help alot.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5999892-F21-frankenturbo-DIY-BUILD-180hp-QUATTRO


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*ECU connector Diagram*

Ok guys, after research and research, i will give it up. I am gonna buy the Raceline kit, but I need a golf mk4 awd engine code ecu connector diagram. 

I found the below picture of R32 Pinout on GTIclub but don't know if it is the same as GTI AWD engine code, I cannot buy Bentley for 130$ now, so any help is really appreciated. 










Thanks in advance,


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

Newsouth power gasket, I wish I would've known about this gasket before I bought the stock one! Looks like it might be a worthy investment! 

I had the VF-Engineering short shifter installed a few months back. It was strange the first day or two but now that I'm used to it and it feels stock. It's great! 

I'm hoping to have my car back in a day or two with the F21T installed. Sure hope all goes well. It's got me pretty nervous right now.. 

Sounds like your build is getting a little more involved than mine. Good luck on yours! :thumbup:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey, 

at last, i converted my car to wideband, check this out!!! 

I have AUQ ecu and the car is running fine. and i got a wideband O2 sensor. 

I didn't install the f21 yet, i hope i have time to do it next week. Keep you posted!!!:beer:


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Hey,
> 
> at last, i converted my car to wideband, check this out!!!
> 
> ...


 Hi, just so you know you can run the audi 225bhp s3/tt files very well on your new Ecu.. Either the 018H or 018CB file will work, already mapped for 3"maf plus tables more a kin to running more power than the stock 180bhp..


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Hi, just so you know you can run the audi 225bhp s3/tt files very well on your new Ecu.. Either the 018H or 018CB file will work, already mapped for 3"maf plus tables more a kin to running more power than the stock 180bhp..


 I didn't know that, but where i can get that file? and what is the advantage if i am going to remap it? 

Thx,


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I didn't know that, but where i can get that file? and what is the advantage if i am going to remap it?
> 
> Thx,


 You remapping or getting someone to do it for you? 

No real benefit but it has things like vvt enabled fully rather than start assistance, its already mapped properly for 3" mafs, and compensation tables. 

There are more define tables out there for the bam ecus than the 180t ones thus making it easier to do a tune.. 

But your tuner should know this anyway, I was just mentioning in case you planned on doing it yourself.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> You remapping or getting someone to do it for you?
> 
> No real benefit but it has things like vvt enabled fully rather than start assistance, its already mapped properly for 3" mafs, and compensation tables.
> 
> ...


 I will get someone to remap it for me, unless i get a Maestro, but still doing some research. I heard that Maestro got a ready file for F21t that just need some tweaking, is that right? 

My car doesn't have VVT i got a resistor with the kit, but sorry i did not understand the benefit of TT225 or S3 file. 

Unitronic dealer in Lebanon is asking around 800$ for a bloody remap, unbelievable...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I'd imagine the wide-band BAM ECU is easier for the OP to source than the N.American BEA. 

Dan -- if you're still following the thread, can you please elaborate on the BAM ecu's transplantability? Just how compatible would it be with a wide-band K03 vehicle?


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I'd imagine the wide-band BAM ECU is easier for the OP to source than the N.American BEA.
> 
> Dan -- if you're still following the thread, can you please elaborate on the BAM ecu's transplantability? Just how compatible would it be with a wide-band K03 vehicle?


 Sure. Basically a lot of the me7.5 ecus are inter compatible especially the 180t and 225bhp. Here in the uk we mainly run 032hn or 032hj or 032aq ecus on the 180t golfs, seats audis there are other versions but still run the same, then we have the bam ecus 018h, 018bh, and 018cb ( earlier 018j, AMk engine) and these ecus all run quite happily on either the 018h or 018cb Ecus maps. The benefit of running an 018h Ecu or map is that it already had 3" maf maps, Vvt is coded in fully so you can adjust can switch over at different rpm where as on the 180t maps its really there for warmup. It also has egt functions which can easily utilised. 

What you find with the bam maps over the 180t is that a lot of the maps are adjusted better for higher power so if say run a 180t with a hybrid k03 the bam map only needs an equivalent stg1/2 tune to get upto 280bhp where as the stock 180t map would need a lot more work to achieve the same thing. 

I now basically have 1 map for both the k04 and k03 based turbos /ecus based on the bam 018h file which works well on both setups, adjustment for egt delete, etc etc then is very easy. And it flashes onto most me7.5 ecus for the golfs, a3, TT etc.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Sure. Basically a lot of the me7.5 ecus are inter compatible especially the 180t and 225bhp. Here in the uk we mainly run 032hn or 032hj or 032aq ecus on the 180t golfs, seats audis there are other versions but still run the same, then we have the bam ecus 018h, 018bh, and 018cb ( earlier 018j, AMk engine) and these ecus all run quite happily on either the 018h or 018cb Ecus maps. The benefit of running an 018h Ecu or map is that it already had 3" maf maps, Vvt is coded in fully so you can adjust can switch over at different rpm where as on the 180t maps its really there for warmup. It also has egt functions which can easily utilised.
> 
> What you find with the bam maps over the 180t is that a lot of the maps are adjusted better for higher power so if say run a 180t with a hybrid k03 the bam map only needs an equivalent stg1/2 tune to get upto 280bhp where as the stock 180t map would need a lot more work to achieve the same thing.
> 
> I now basically have 1 map for both the k04 and k03 based turbos /ecus based on the bam 018h file which works well on both setups, adjustment for egt delete, etc etc then is very easy. And it flashes onto most me7.5 ecus for the golfs, a3, TT etc.


 :thumbup: cheers for that... 
So correct me if i am wrong, mainly i will be going for Uni stg2+ with 415cc (as they recommended), isn't supposed that the remap flash all the ECU allover again, since the map is made for 3" MAF housing? 

If i got you well, BAM ecu work well if you are doing custom remap and you just change a little since the ecu already have 3"map... But in my case they are the same Right? 

Ps: I am running a 032HN of an AUQ engine.


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> :thumbup: cheers for that...
> So correct me if i am wrong, mainly i will be going for Uni stg2+ with 415cc (as they recommended), isn't supposed that the remap flash all the ECU allover again, since the map is made for 3" MAF housing?
> 
> If i got you well, BAM ecu work well if you are doing custom remap and you just change a little since the ecu already have 3"map... But in my case they are the same Right?
> ...


 Yes exactly, so with your hn you either need a custom hn map which has been tuned to accept the 3" maf or you run the BAM 018h map which has it already setup for the 3" mad, along with better load and torque maps etc. it needs work in deleting egt but that's very easy. 

It's horses for courses really, but I found the torque maps on the 018h with part throttle a lot nicer than the hn when running a 3" maf etc. but I am sure your tuner has very good stage2+ map for the hn.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Yes exactly, so with your hn you either need a custom hn map which has been tuned to accept the 3" maf or you run the BAM 018h map which has it already setup for the 3" mad, along with better load and torque maps etc. it needs work in deleting egt but that's very easy.
> 
> It's horses for courses really, but I found the torque maps on the 018h with part throttle a lot nicer than the hn when running a 3" maf etc. but I am sure your tuner has very good stage2+ map for the hn.


 Cheers for the support mate, yesterday i had a conversation with Ziad @ unitronic USA, and he is gonna help me to get a nice map for my F21T and he sent me the file number and name so when i contact my local dealer i will directly tell him which file to use. :beer: 

Doug, Ziad @ unitronic told me that i should go with Genesis 415cc @ 3bar, and i saw many here they went 550cc or 440cc giant green. In addition, i have the GII 500cc can i run them and do some tweaking on unisettings to make them work. 
I don't wanna pay an additional 320$.... 

Thx all,


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Cheers for the support mate, yesterday i had a conversation with Ziad @ unitronic USA, and he is gonna help me to get a nice map for my F21T and he sent me the file number and name so when i contact my local dealer i will directly tell him which file to use. :beer:
> 
> Doug, Ziad @ unitronic told me that i should go with Genesis 415cc @ 3bar, and i saw many here they went 550cc or 440cc giant green. In addition, i have the GII 500cc can i run them and do some tweaking on unisettings to make them work.
> I don't wanna pay an additional 320$....
> ...


 415cc's are WAY too small. If he's recommending these injectors it shows only that Unitronic really doesn't know how to tune for the F21. Unitronic is NOT the way to go for software. I spoke with you a bit and told you what the 2 best options are. Just because Unitronic is "recommended" remember something, Frankenturbo is a business. They recommend Unitronic because they either get something out of it now, or have in the past. Unitronic is no longer a valid tuner is a majority of people's eyes, those people being the ones who have tried multiple tunes. Choose one of the two options I gave you. One is cheaper and the performance is greater while still being safe for rods (if you choose), the other is more expensive and needs to be tweaked until it's right. eace:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Damn I am confused now!!! the options i have are: 

1- Custom tune on Dyno (But don't know the result) 
2- Unitronic stg2+ (But i need to change my GII 500cc to 415cc) 
3- Gonzo tune (but I don't know if i can tweak it to match the Lebanese temp and fuel) 
4- Maestro (Expensive and need a lot of time and tweaking) 

Come On guys, comments please...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

OP -- please disregard the post from Gonzo "Tuning"'s representative. They are purely trying to distort Unitronic's applicability to our product in attempt to steer your business towards themselves. The fact is that the Genesis 415cc/Green Giant 440cc spec is a very good fit for the F21T's power levels. And Unitronic's software in general is vastly superior to the product Gonzo tries to market. 

Stick with a professional tuner, not someone who tries to poach business by insulting a reputable company.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> OP -- please disregard the post from Gonzo "Tuning"'s representative. They are purely trying to distort Unitronic's applicability to our product in attempt to steer your business towards themselves. The fact is that the Genesis 415cc/Green Giant 440cc spec is a very good fit for the F21T's power levels. And Unitronic's software in general is vastly superior to the product Gonzo tries to market.
> 
> Stick with a professional tuner, not someone who tries to poach business by insulting a reputable company.


 Give it a break Doug, quit spreading disinfo. I personally ran the Uni stage 2+ 440 file for 2years and switched to a Gonzo tune and it is far superior to the Uni tune in every way. Plus Gonzo's customer service is far superior to Uni as far as my dealings with both went. I have no irons in this fire so don't even try to act like I'm a Gonzo employee. You're the one who has a reason to try and discredit Gonzo. His ability to tune hybrids and BT has proven itself in the community even thru all the hate everyone was throwing his way in the beginning. Uni would tune his car and then fail to offer real support after that. Gonzo would continue to help him until everyone is satisfied. I'm speaking from experience here dealing with both companies. Its about time you get off his d_ick and leave some room for the chicks...


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## [email protected] (Jul 3, 2013)

We've been tuning the 1.8T platform for over 10 years now and have ample professional tuning experience to ensure a powerful and reliable vehicle. You can come to our state of the art facility here in Quebec and check out our operations; all of our performance software is precisely calibrated in-house using a combination of our DTS Engine Dynamometer and Dynapack chassis dynamometer. In addition, you can give us a call and speak with any of our sales or tech support staff, as we're here to assist you. We even have staff members here at Headquarters that that speak Arabic, if you prefer, as I see you're from Lebanon. We have a global dealer network in over 25 counties making it very convenient to get our performance software. Our dealers are trained to not only install our performance software, but provide helpful support in the event that it is required. 

Our Frankenturbo specific Stage 2+ files have been available for many years with a plethora of happy clients. It's very important that you run the components that our tune requires. Most users that experience issues are simply not running the components that we require or in the incorrect configuration that we require. If you're interested in our Stage 2+ Frankenturbo specific file, it requires Genesis 415cc (or Bosch Green Giant 440cc) injectors to be run at 3 bar of fuel pressure. It also requires that you run a TT225 MAF housing (or other OEM style 3" O.D., 2.75" I.D. housing) retaining the stock sensor, in the TT housing. It also requires the N75 valve to be electronically connected, but not plumbed into the system. Instead, use a manual or electronic boost controller to control the boost. 

Let me know if you have any other questions! You can reach me via email at [email protected]. Cheers!


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> We've been tuning the 1.8T platform for over 10 years now and have ample professional tuning experience to ensure a powerful and reliable vehicle. You can come to our state of the art facility here in Quebec and check out our operations; all of our performance software is precisely calibrated in-house using a combination of our DTS Engine Dynamometer and Dynapack chassis dynamometer. In addition, you can give us a call and speak with any of our sales or tech support staff, as we're here to assist you. We even have staff members here at Headquarters that that speak Arabic, if you prefer, as I see you're from Lebanon. We have a global dealer network in over 25 counties making it very convenient to get our performance software. Our dealers are trained to not only install our performance software, but provide helpful support in the event that it is required.
> 
> Our Frankenturbo specific Stage 2+ files have been available for many years with a plethora of happy clients. It's very important that you run the components that our tune requires. Most users that experience issues are simply not running the components that we require or in the incorrect configuration that we require. If you're interested in our Stage 2+ Frankenturbo specific file, it requires Genesis 415cc (or Bosch Green Giant 440cc) injectors to be run at 3 bar of fuel pressure. It also requires that you run a TT225 MAF housing (or other OEM style 3" O.D., 2.75" I.D. housing) retaining the stock sensor, in the TT housing. It also requires the N75 valve to be electronically connected, but not plumbed into the system. Instead, use a manual or electronic boost controller to control the boost.
> 
> Let me know if you have any other questions! You can reach me via email at [email protected]. Cheers!


 
Sorry for asking but WHY in the world do you need to run the n75 unplugged and a EBC/MBC? What's wrong with the n75 ?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Beachbuggy said:


> Sorry for asking but WHY in the world do you need to run the n75 unplugged and a EBC/MBC? What's wrong with the n75 ?


 Problems with the FT's actuators being weak and not set-up properly. 

this is from UNi's website.....; 

" In addition, a manual or electronic boost controller is necessary with our Stage 2+ Frankenturbo specific software due to the fact that these turbocharger units are not shipped with a standardized wastegate pre-load setting. As a result, we are unable to tune for use with the N75 valve. NOTE: Running your manual boost controller inline or in parallel with the N75 valve is NOT RECOMMENDED. The N75 valve must remain electrically connected but not plumbed into the turbo inlet pipe or boost tubing. You can zip tie or tuck it out of the way at your own convenience."


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## [email protected] (Jul 3, 2013)

Beachbuggy said:


> Sorry for asking but WHY in the world do you need to run the n75 unplugged and a EBC/MBC? What's wrong with the n75 ?


 You should *NOT* run the N75 unplugged. That's the exact opposite of what I wrote. The N75 valve must remain electronically connected, but not routed in the system. You can affix it out of the way, as you please. Then, run the MBC/EBC in place of the N75 and plug the N75 port on the Turbo Inlet Hose. We require this configuration because WG pre-load presets are not consistent enough to utilize the N75 to control the boost.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

opcorn::laugh:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> I personally ran the Uni stage 2+ 440 file for 2years and switched to a Gonzo tune and it is far superior to the Uni tune in every way .


 Hi, i an interested to know what advantage you got from Gonzo over Unitronic? what are the numbers? 

Personally, i am having a great customer service from Unitronic since a year though i did not get their map yet, when i had narrowband these guys kept supporting me days and nights till i got the needed kit and all the instruction. 

however i would got for a remap with better number... so if you have numbers for the same mods with uni or gonzo, post them that how you will help me made up my mind.. 

cheers,:beer:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> OP -- please disregard the post from Gonzo "Tuning"'s representative. They are purely trying to distort Unitronic's applicability to our product in attempt to steer your business towards themselves. The fact is that the Genesis 415cc/Green Giant 440cc spec is a very good fit for the F21T's power levels. And Unitronic's software in general is vastly superior to the product Gonzo tries to market.
> 
> Stick with a professional tuner, not someone who tries to poach business by insulting a reputable company.


 Wow... Just Wow... :facepalm: 

I think the OP can give testament to what kind of help and if I've pushed any product on him. Also, with as much as we've spoken I've NOT ONCE said anything bad about you or your product to him, yet you bash be publicly (and incorrectly at that). I also haven't pushed Gonzo's tune on him either and HE can tell you that! I told him what his best options are (and there was more than one) for ANY setup Hybrid to BT (especially since he's on the other side of the planet).


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

*OP* - once you get the details sorted I'm sure you'll love your F21. The software choice is important so take your time to make the choice that's right for you. 

I have Unitronic software and it decent. If I could rewind time, I would have bought something that could change and develop with my car. Customer service is important and it fell flat shortly after I paid the $. 

As a thought, these guys are local to you and offer both canned tunes as well as custom maps… 
http://unitedmotorsport.co.uk


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> OP -- please disregard the post from Gonzo "Tuning"'s representative. They are purely trying to distort Unitronic's applicability to our product in attempt to steer your business towards themselves. The fact is that the Genesis 415cc/Green Giant 440cc spec is a very good fit for the F21T's power levels. And Unitronic's software in general is vastly superior to the product Gonzo tries to market.
> 
> Stick with a professional tuner, not someone who tries to poach business by insulting a reputable company.





DMVDUB said:


> Wow... Just Wow... :facepalm:
> 
> I think the OP can give testament to what kind of help and if I've pushed any product on him. Also, with as much as we've spoken I've NOT ONCE said anything bad about you or your product to him, yet you bash be publicly (and incorrectly at that). I also haven't pushed Gonzo's tune on him either and HE can tell you that! I told him what his best options are (and there was more than one) for ANY setup Hybrid to BT (especially since he's on the other side of the planet).


 Hold on a second both of you!!!! what you are doing is not helping at all... this is my bloody thread and i don't want you both to ruin it!!! 

Indeed Matt, you helped me and didn't push me to any product and you said that Doug's F21T is a good Turbo but has problem in the WGA exactly as Unitrinoc said on their web, so i appreciate your help. 

Doug, i want you to know that your continuous help is highly appreciated and since i am installing your Turbo, your opinion will refrain the priority for me. 

I maybe go with Maestro, but my options are Unitrnic, Gonzo, and local custom tune... 

Unitrnic has many advantage, one of them is their local dealer that is 20 minutes away from my home, so i can have continuous support. 

Gonzo is seems to be a nice tune BUT is way too far from me and i don't know how supportive will be after getting my Money. 

I am sure the difference btw Uni and Gonzo won't be more than 5hp, and there are loads of people in Lebanon waiting my result to decide either they go with a set up like mine or not. 

For the time being I will contact John @ Unitronic and will contact Gonzo tune then I will decide. 

Cheers,:beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

All_Euro said:


> *OP* - once you get the details sorted I'm sure you'll love your F21. The software choice is important so take your time to make the choice that's right for you.
> 
> I have Unitronic software and it decent. If I could rewind time, I would have bought something that could change and develop with my car. Customer service is important and it fell flat shortly after I paid the $.
> 
> ...


 thx for the support man, these guys are in UK and i live in Lebanon in the Middle east!! 

Do you have a F21T, what are the numbers with Unitronic, and what did you mean by *I would have bought something that could change and develop with my car* 

Cheers,


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## lewp91 (May 9, 2011)

how odd, saw your thread on ukmkivs yesterday, and this one today  

good luck with it!


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> thx for the support man, these guys are in UK and i live in Lebanon in the Middle east!!
> 
> Do you have a F21T, what are the numbers with Unitronic, and what did you mean by *I would have bought something that could change and develop with my car*
> 
> Cheers,


 Haha - I know, sorry. What I meant by local is your side of the pond  

I'm running a ported K03 so no I don't have an F21 but they flow well and hold boost nicely through later rpms. 

What I meant about the software, though, is that I wish I didn't have a canned tune. If you don't ever want to do something custom with your car then it doesn't matter… you just stick with the turbo/hardware combinations that the tuning company writes files for. If you choose a hardware combination outside of the companies prescribed list - then you're on your own or have to pay for another tuning company to start from scratch… which is a serious waste of time and money. 

Maestro is a good idea too as there are custom tuners that will tweak the files for you or you can do it yourself. The original Unitronic is in Poland… but I don't know if they offer a remote tuning option. The remote tunes can be done anywhere which is ideal; Gonzo offers them. Kevin Black does for his standalone customer but sells Maestro too so he'd be worth contacting as well :thumbup:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

I don't have any direct dyno comparisons between the two. When I switched to Gonzo from Uni...cold starts, part throttle, full throttle and all around drivability got better. I could immediately tell a huge difference in the way the car performed. With Uni I needed to run a MBC, Gonzo used the n75 to control the boost. Gonzo actually tuned my car and did not flash it with a canned tune. I sent him logs and he made changes to get it dialed in. He also remotely flashed my ecu so I didn't have to sent it to him. Gonzo was majorly supportive after getting my money as he reflashed my car a few times and is still there offering to make more changes if I send him more logs(its awesome the way it is:laugh: ). I did not get such treatment from Uni. I ended up at Gonzo for that exact reason. I wanted to do the emission deletes that Uni offers and they basically refused to help me. I was told they needed to put my name on a list and then it would be a few months before they got around to it. I gave my name to the tech support guy and never heard back even after calling repeadidly. They only charge $50 for the reflash but basically made it impossible for me to get it done even after I had spent $800 with them. I was no longer a priority after the fact. Many people have made the switch and they all say the same thing. If I made a change to my car and needed a change in the tune, Gonzo would be there without a doubt. 

I supported Doug and gave Doug positive feedback all the time in the beginning. Just likes I am doing for Gonzo. Doug wants to talk smack about Gonzo and tell you to stick to a real company..lol It wasn't that long ago that people were talking smack about this guy named Doug who was trying to push his china turbos. People who had experience gave positive feedback and helped Doug's business grow and learn he had a good product. So him trying to pick on the "little guy" is funny considering it was him not that long ago. You should obviously do what you think is best for your situation but do not rule out Gonzo as a tuning option as his tunes and customer service are top tier. He is a small company now so he can get busy but I got better results from him than the larger company. :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> I don't have any direct dyno comparisons between the two. When I switched to Gonzo from Uni...cold starts, part throttle, full throttle and all around drivability got better. I could immediately tell a huge difference in the way the car performed. With Uni I needed to run a MBC, Gonzo used the n75 to control the boost. Gonzo actually tuned my car and did not flash it with a canned tune. I sent him logs and he made changes to get it dialed in. He also remotely flashed my ecu so I didn't have to sent it to him. Gonzo was majorly supportive after getting my money as he reflashed my car a few times and is still there offering to make more changes if I send him more logs(its awesome the way it is:laugh: ). I did not get such treatment from Uni. I ended up at Gonzo for that exact reason. I wanted to do the emission deletes that Uni offers and they basically refused to help me. I was told they needed to put my name on a list and then it would be a few months before they got around to it. I gave my name to the tech support guy and never heard back even after calling repeadidly. They only charge $50 for the reflash but basically made it impossible for me to get it done even after I had spent $800 with them. I was no longer a priority after the fact. Many people have made the switch and they all say the same thing. If I made a change to my car and needed a change in the tune, Gonzo would be there without a doubt.
> 
> I supported Doug and gave Doug positive feedback all the time in the beginning. Just likes I am doing for Gonzo. Doug wants to talk smack about Gonzo and tell you to stick to a real company..lol It wasn't that long ago that people were talking smack about this guy named Doug who was trying to push his china turbos. People who had experience gave positive feedback and helped Doug's business grow and learn he had a good product. So him trying to pick on the "little guy" is funny considering it was him not that long ago. You should obviously do what you think is best for your situation but do not rule out Gonzo as a tuning option as his tunes and customer service are top tier. He is a small company now so he can get busy but I got better results from him than the larger company. :beer:


 :thumbup::thumbup: 

from experience... 
Unitronic's custumer service sucks!! and they are a ripoff !! so freaking over priced:thumbdown: 

*and you can find China turbos( FT) on ebay for much cheaper :laugh:*


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> from experience...
> Unitronic's custumer service sucks!! and they are a ripoff !! so freaking over priced:thumbdown:
> ...


 Actually, If people want a group buy of actual FT's they can just contact the factory and buy them :laugh: 10 or more @ $250-300 per turbo. 

Since I'm sure it would be a breach of Vortex rules I won't give the info for the factory, but it's not hard to find. 

I think the OP has a good idea of what tuning options are best. More or less I think he just wants to hear from people using (put tuner here) tune and their experience. Given his location, tunes that can be done remotely or directly are his best bet. It's just up to him now to decide which is for him. 

1. Custom Remote tune he can flash in his driveway in 5 minutes, done by someone else. 
2. "VerySemi-standalone" that he'll have to tweak until perfect, the supplied files are nowhere near finished. 
3. Overpriced Can tune that doesn't work properly without a "bandaid" 

His choice.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Matt, twopnt016v, br337, thank u for ur post... i have 2 options now. One of them is maestro, i a local tuner can get it for me in a reduced price.. what do u think of it? And do they have a basic file for f21t t that i can start with? 
Thx,


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Matt, twopnt016v, br337, thank u for ur post... i have 2 options now. One of them is maestro, i a local tuner can get it for me in a reduced price.. what do u think of it? And do they have a basic file for f21t t that i can start with?
> Thx,


 I enjoy using it. It's not as simple as plugging in a base file and being done with it, but the learning curve is quick. I would recommend asking Gonzo if He'd do a trial flash for you just to get an idea before pulling the trigger on anything. Either way your best options are Maestro or Gonzo and it really just depends on how much work you want to do. You can pay him to dial you in perfectly and then forget it, although if you plan on making modifications almost weekly like some of us then Maestro may be your best bet. There's a lot Maestro can do, but there's more it can't do. So in terms of pulling the most HP per dollar Gonzo may be best. It's really all about your preference, and how much work you want to do yourself. The Maestro base files are very lacking. They are a good starting point, but no where near complete. If you have the time to do a lot of data logging and tweaking then you may be very happy with Maestro. I've figured out that tuning on the Dyno with Maestro will make a great high HP tune but lacks MPG and drivability, so you have to get a happy medium or just make a "race" file and a "daily" file. I think I have about 10 files that a go between depending on what fuel I'm running, if I'm running W/M, if I'm running 1/8th mile or 1/4mile, or if it's an auto-x day, all while having a "eco" tune and a "performance" daily tune. Each one took some time to make, but I enjoy fiddling with the program. 

It's all up to you. I suggest speaking with Gonzo and seeing what he's got for you and then weigh your options. The pro's and con's are there in both, it's up to you to decide which has more pro's and less con's for you. eace:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> I wanted to do the emission deletes


 Sorry if it seems to be dumb question but what does emission deletes benefits? and what it is?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Maestro*

OK Guys, 

First I really appreciate your help. 

I made my decision to go with Maestro but i won't buy it right now, before i do the necessary research to see how it works, i have 2 weeks to the final decision. 

The first result i got after 2 hours searching, it seems that Maestro has several basic files, i should get the most close one for the F21T and flash my ECU, then i should start mapping several Section like: Torque Control, Ignition & Cam Timing, Fueling, Flowmeter, Boost Control,... Right? 

and after each map i should do some datalog to check how close i am to the Top numbers. 

Please send me all the needed links for a newbie like me for Maestro, I am finding some difficulties in technical words but will manage myself, and the Journey begins...  

thx in advance,


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Sorry if it seems to be dumb question but what does emission deletes benefits? and what it is?


 If you want to remove certain emissions components from the engine like the secondary air system or the evap system you need to have those items written out of the software so there is no check engine light on. I had swapped to a bigport AEB head and it does not have the hole in the side of the head to hook up the secondary air stuff. I needed to get some software that had that written out so the check engine light was not on and the car would still pass emissions. Lots of people remove these components to clean up the engine bay. There is no performance gains from removing them. 
Good luck with Maestro, it will really take some hard work and research. You really will have to spend a lot of time with it to get the car right. That is one of the joys of getting a good tune from someone like Gonzo, he has already done the hardwork so your car will be running awesome sooner than with Maestro. As long as you have time to dedicate to learning it you should be able to get thru it with the help of the guys here on the forum. :beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> If you want to remove certain emissions components from the engine like the secondary air system or the evap system you need to have those items written out of the software so there is no check engine light on. I had swapped to a bigport AEB head and it does not have the hole in the side of the head to hook up the secondary air stuff. I needed to get some software that had that written out so the check engine light was not on and the car would still pass emissions. Lots of people remove these components to clean up the engine bay. There is no performance gains from removing them.
> Good luck with Maestro, it will really take some hard work and research. You really will have to spend a lot of time with it to get the car right. That is one of the joys of getting a good tune from someone like Gonzo, he has already done the hardwork so your car will be running awesome sooner than with Maestro. As long as you have time to dedicate to learning it you should be able to get thru it with the help of the guys here on the forum. :beer:


 Ok!!! I already did the SAP delete, with N249 and N112, i won't touch the Evap system!!! Lol, I didn't know its name!! 

As said, I will get my car to my Mechanic to do the Engine restore; power Gasket, Head Gasket, Piston rings, Rods Bearing, Valve steam, Valve cover gaskets,... And I will install the F21T. This will be begining next week and will last for 3 days, so mainly I have around 2 weeks to figure out if i will be able to proceed with Maestro, from what i have seen till now that Maestro ain't a joke at all, and you need to have a good knowledge in tuning to be able to do it, and one thing... YOU NEED A LOT OF TIME TO DO IT!!! 

I will be doing a lot of research before making up my mind, and will keep you posted all of you. 

Thanks Guys, :beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Ok!!! I already did the SAP delete, with N249 and N112, i won't touch the Evap system!!! Lol, I didn't know its name!!
> 
> As said, I will get my car to my Mechanic to do the Engine restore; power Gasket, Head Gasket, Piston rings, Rods Bearing, Valve steam, Valve cover gaskets,... And I will install the F21T. This will be begining next week and will last for 3 days, so mainly I have around 2 weeks to figure out if i will be able to proceed with Maestro, from what i have seen till now that Maestro ain't a joke at all, and you need to have a good knowledge in tuning to be able to do it, and one thing... YOU NEED A LOT OF TIME TO DO IT!!!
> 
> ...


 Having the head off the car would be the *perfect* time to put the frankenturbo exhaust manifold on. That thing is a pain in the ass and will take a good amount of time. You can't put sockets on all the bolts so you have to use open end wrench and I even grind away some material on the manifold so you can get a wrench on it better. Also you need to get all the nuts started with the manifold not fully seated against the head or you won't be able to get some of the nuts on the studs. It is a tricky job and most people end up not installing a nut or 2. 


edit....is he installing rods also? He should be so you can safely turn the boost up and really enjoy it..


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Having the head off the car would be the *perfect* time to put the frankenturbo exhaust manifold on. That thing is a pain in the ass and will take a good amount of time. You can't put sockets on all the bolts so you have to use open end wrench and I even grind away some material on the manifold so you can get a wrench on it better. Also you need to get all the nuts started with the manifold not fully seated against the head or you won't be able to get some of the nuts on the studs. It is a tricky job and most people end up not installing a nut or 2.
> 
> 
> edit....is he installing rods also? He should be so you can safely turn the boost up and really enjoy it..


 I won't be changing the Rods, because it is an additional 600$, and I read that the F21T could be ran on Stock internals. I will see about the rods, but mainly i won't change them unless i got them for a good price. 

I will tell My Mechanic about the exh. mani. 

Cheers :beer: for the information...


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I won't be changing the Rods, because it is an additional 600$, and I read that the F21T could be ran on Stock internals. I will see about the rods, but mainly i won't change them unless i got them for a good price.
> 
> I will tell My Mechanic about the exh. mani.
> 
> Cheers :beer: for the information...


 Your going to want to go with stronger rods if hes already pulling the motor apart. The extra money is worth the piece of mind.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I won't be changing the Rods, because it is an additional 600$, and I read that the F21T could be ran on Stock internals. I will see about the rods, but mainly i won't change them unless i got them for a good price.
> 
> I will tell My Mechanic about the exh. mani.
> 
> Cheers :beer: for the information...


 Yes and no. The F21 can bend the rods and put a hole in your block. This is where the tune would come into play. You would need a "rod safe" tune and would need to keep the boost at max 22psi. I would really try and come up with rod money. Honestly there is no reason to install new piston rings, rod bearings and headgasket unless you are having compression related problems. Yes that will freshen up the engine but most people do those things when dropping in rods. If you are going to try and tune it yourself you need to try and make sure you don't get low rpm torque spikes as that is what bends/breaks rods and kills your engine. You almost can buy rods for the diffrence in price from gonzo to maestro...just more things to think about... 
If it were me I would get rods, have gonzo remote flash your ecu, run 26psi and call it a day. :beer:


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Yes and no. The F21 can bend the rods and put a hole in your block. This is where the tune would come into play. You would need a "rod safe" tune and would need to keep the boost at max 22psi. I would really try and come up with rod money. Honestly there is no reason to install new piston rings, rod bearings and headgasket unless you are having compression related problems. Yes that will freshen up the engine but most people do those things when dropping in rods. If you are going to try and tune it yourself you need to try and make sure you don't get low rpm torque spikes as that is what bends/breaks rods and kills your engine. You almost can buy rods for the diffrence in price from gonzo to maestro...just more things to think about...
> If it were me I would get rods, have gonzo remote flash your ecu, run 26psi and call it a day. :beer:


 Since he's pretty much sold on Maestro, the Base files don't make rod bending power. Not even close.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

DMVDUB said:


> Since he's pretty much sold on Maestro, the Base files don't make rod bending power. Not even close.


 Right, but once he starts messing around.... still seems like he should do the rods if he is going to pull the head and remove the rods...but maybe thats just me...:beer:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Right, but once he starts messing around.... still seems like he should do the rods if he is going to pull the head and remove the rods...but maybe thats just me...:beer:


 No, you're right. He's trying to keep to a budget though and price tags are racking up.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

DMVDUB said:


> No, you're right. He's trying to keep to a budget though and price tags are racking up.


 We can all sympathize with the budget problems


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Guys, don't forget where I live and shipping to my country is not cheap and not easy, before getting the F21T i did a lot of search and i wanted to get F23 or a BT, and I searched for Rods and IE were on my list but they cost around 850$+ shipped and Tax paid!!! this is not a small amount of money for me in my country. 

This is why I decided to go with F21T because I read here on Vortex that it is safe for stock internal.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Guys, don't forget where I live and shipping to my country is not cheap and not easy, before getting the F21T i did a lot of search and i wanted to get F23 or a BT, and I searched for Rods and IE were on my list but they cost around 850$+ shipped and Tax paid!!! this is not a small amount of money for me in my country.
> 
> This is why I decided to go with F21T because I read here on Vortex that it is safe for stock internal.


 Completely understand where you are coming from:thumbup:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Engine restore*

I was thinking that i have an AWD engine code which the Rods come with 20mm not with 19mm as the latest one, is that going to be better? In addition, will A4 AEB fit my engine and are they better than mine?
I was thinking how can i upgrade a bit the rods without paying my @$$ off.

I will book next week my Mechanic to do all the restoring.

:beer:


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I was thinking that i have an AWD engine code which the Rods come with 20mm not with 19mm as the latest one, is that going to be better? In addition, will A4 AEB fit my engine and are they better than mine?
> I was thinking how can i upgrade a bit the rods without paying my @$$ off.
> 
> I will book next week my Mechanic to do all the restoring.
> ...


The wrist pin isnt the part that fails so it really makes no difference. either will fail/bend with a good spike of TQ


And Im with Twopnt016v on this one. Switch to a Gonzo remote tune and get some rods. Save yourself the 2 headaches of seat of the pants tuning and possible rod failure.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Damn!!!! I hate temptation!!!!!

Guys send me some good Rods Companies links other than IE, i already mailed Cassidy for the best price to check if my budget can afford them.
eace:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Damn!!!! I hate temptation!!!!!
> 
> Guys send me some good Rods Companies links other than IE, i already mailed Cassidy for the best price to check if my budget can afford them.
> eace:



Fourth from the top…
http://racingpartsmaximum.com/importrod.html


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Damn!!!! I hate temptation!!!!!
> 
> Guys send me some good Rods Companies links other than IE, i already mailed Cassidy for the best price to check if my budget can afford them.
> eace:


Smart move :thumbup::beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

All_Euro said:


> Fourth from the top…
> http://racingpartsmaximum.com/importrod.html


This is an I beam, what is the difference btw I & H beam rods?

In addition, is this a 20mm wrist pin?

thx man,


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> Smart move :thumbup::beer:


I know , now i want to get some affordable rods.

I Contacted Godspeed, IE, RPM... PAG are way off budget

Any more idea?

thx,


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> This is an I beam, what is the difference btw I & H beam rods?
> 
> In addition, is this a 20mm wrist pin?
> 
> thx man,


The I-beam is stronger… they're usually heavier too but this is a light design. They do sell an H-beam as well if you prefer it. Both are 20mm wrist-pin rods :thumbup:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

All_Euro said:


> The I-beam is stronger… they're usually heavier too but this is a light design. They do sell an H-beam as well if you prefer it. Both are 20mm wrist-pin rods :thumbup:


Are these Riffle drilled? and how we should know if they are or not.

Cheers,


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Are these Riffle drilled? and how we should know if they are or not.
> 
> Cheers,


I'd just call or email them directly as they're the best ones to answer your questions


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

All_Euro said:


> I'd just call or email them directly as they're the best ones to answer your questions


Already did...:thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Are those rods for 1.8 or 2.0 ?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I know , now i want to get some affordable rods.
> 
> I Contacted Godspeed, IE, RPM... PAG are way off budget
> 
> ...


Check out Alibaba. There are a few billet rods on there that I saw today.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> Check out Alibaba. There are a few billet rods on there that I saw today.


You can get a "test" set for $125 shipped 

They are as good as any, just make sure to us your calipers on them and weigh them. Do your own QC.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

BR_337 said:


> Are those rods for 1.8 or 2.0 ?


Haha - I emailed them with the same question a while back. Same rods, these are suitable for us too


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

All_Euro said:


> Haha - I emailed them with the same question a while back. Same rods, these are suitable for us too


For real?? Are those things reliable? Lol 

Another thing, I always wonder.. Why Nobody here uses.EAGLE Rods? I had it on my turbo civic . They're one of the best out there..


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> You can get a "test" set for $125 shipped
> 
> They are as good as any, just make sure to us your calipers on them and weigh them. Do your own QC.


Matt, can you explain morr please, what did u mean by "using my calipers" and what did u mean by QC? :beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> For real?? Are those things reliable? Lol
> 
> Another thing, I always wonder.. Why Nobody here uses.EAGLE Rods? I had it on my turbo civic . They're one of the best out there..


I think they are all made in the same company, they just ingrave different company names on it.
I hot an email from godspeed confirming that they have the rods i want, now am checking if they are rifle drilled.

I will check Alibaba tomorrow, and will post the link here so we share it.

How much should be the weight of the rod?

Cheers,


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

BR_337 said:


> For real?? Are those things reliable? Lol
> 
> Another thing, I always wonder.. Why Nobody here uses.EAGLE Rods? I had it on my turbo civic . They're one of the best out there..


At $280 it makes you wonder but have a look through their site... you'll see they BUILT & OWN the Asian factory; and they've been supplying other vendors and race teams for years. Machining is done in-house. They produce crankshafts as well... want a custom set of titanium rods? They'll be pricey but no problem


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

All_Euro said:


> At $280 it makes you wonder but have a look through their site... you'll see they BUILT & OWN the Asian factory; and they've been supplying other vendors and race teams for years. Machining is done in-house. They produce crankshafts as well... want a custom set of titanium rods? They'll be pricey but no problem


Yep there's more out there than the vortex gods would let you believe. A little research will show 90% of the stuff you're buying at high markup is made in the same province of China. All it takes is for something as simple as a screw to be left un installed in a part and when it reaches the states a company installs said screw and BAM! Assembled in USA! 

I've had long talks with several vendors from China, and while they won't fully disclose who they make things for, you can figure it out fairly easy. Some will tell you who they make things for as well since they have no obligation to keep any secrets. Our laws mean nothing there.:wave:


----------



## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

BR_337 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> from experience...
> Unitronic's custumer service sucks!! and they are a ripoff !! so freaking over priced:thumbdown:
> ...


I have had nothing but good help from them! Mailed me multiple ecu while upgrading. Wideband, ft and what not. Respond to calls and emails quickly too! Even sent a bad ass stg II+ badge!


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Connecting Rods Info*

Hey,

after a small search i would like to share with you these infos about the connecting rods, type, beam, made, ... I think they would help other people looking for the same. As per R&R:

Beam Designes:


> There are several beam choices that are popular. Most commonly used are H beam and I beam styles. Less common are A beam and X beam. Most factory rods are I beam design and this was done to aid in forging for manufacturing. This design is very strong, but tends to be slightly heavier than an H beam. The I beam has preferable windage characteristics over an H beam though. However, most people choose the H beam due to weight and strength characteristics. We're not saying H is stronger than I, but you can have a lighter H that is just as strong as the I beam! A beams are for lower horsepower applications that require a very light rod. X beam rods, while being strong design, tend to be very heavy, as if they are lightened they become weak.


Forged and billet steel connecting rod:


> Forgings are easier and cheaper to manufacture and until CNC machining became popular, this was the only economical way to manufacture an steel connecting rod. Billets actually cost more, but the finished product is actually stronger. Part of this is due to how the billets are manufactured, as billets allow for directionality of the grain structure and due to our ability to buy in volume directly from the steel mill, we can tailor the billets to our specification done by our metallurgist. Same goes with a forged versus billet crankshaft - billet is always better!


Steel, titanium, or aluminum connecting rod:


> Typically street, strip, and diesel engines will require a steel connecting rod, as they are the most economical for these applications and will provide a long service life exceeding that of OE connecting rods. For high rpm applications requiring a light rod, titanium rods work well but are cost prohibitive and need to be replaced as they fatigue like an aluminum rod. We can make a very light steel connecting rod for these applications, while aluminum rods will provide the weight savings of a titanium rod at a fraction of the cost of either steel or titanium. Aluminum rods are primarily used for drag racing, however they frequently are used in street and diesel applications, but have fixed life cycles requiring replacement before failure.


Hope it helps,:beer:


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## toy4two2 (Feb 6, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> from experience...
> Unitronic's custumer service sucks!! and they are a ripoff !! so freaking over priced:thumbdown:
> ...


agreed, I tried to purchase a harness from them and after two weeks after sending my money, no harness, not even an email when it will ship. I sent an email, no response. I called them and they said they emailed me, which is BS I searched my gmail and nothing, they lie to you. I thought the "customer service" rep was douchey too, no apologies. I hope they go out of business.

I did get a refund and just used the money to buy the harness from their OEM RaceLine http://www.raceline-ws.com/store/bench-flash-harness-med7-booth-pin-kit Unitronic refused to sell it to me because it was a "dealer tool" ok fine don't take my money, happy to just buy it from RaceLine directly.

Now I can remove the stupid IMMO on my car and download/store my different tunes.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Guys, most of the rods i am finding are not rifle drilled, can you help and tell me if they are a must? I did some research and ut seems they are for high HP (450+hp) my car is a daiky drive and i abuse it so much.

Here is some rods i like: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...gine-H-beam-connecting/700481_1037449229.html

Cheers,


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Guys, most of the rods i am finding are not rifle drilled, can you help and tell me if they are a must? I did some research and ut seems they are for high HP (450+hp) my car is a daiky drive and i abuse it so much.
> 
> Here is some rods i like: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...gine-H-beam-connecting/700481_1037449229.html
> 
> Cheers,


Call up IE and ask what they think. Without rifle drilling there is no direct lubrication to the wrist pin. A good bit of people build these engines for race only and they are the ones who skip the rifle drilling. I believe Pete from IE told me if you put 10-15k miles on the car a year you should get the rifle drilling. You could possible have them rifle drilled by IE or another company. I understand you're in another country so all of this shipping stuff around can get very expensive. If the only way you can get rods is without rifle drilling, I would say give them a shot.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

well i am getting H Beam rods with rifle drilled, but the diameter of that rifle drill will be 1.5mm, i want to know is this is sufficient? who have rifle drill, do you know what was the diameter of the whole?

Cheers,eace:


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Rifle drilling is not necessary. In fact, I certainly would not do it in any of my cars.

Call me old fashioned.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

JohnnyAlpaca said:


> Rifle drilling is not necessary. In fact, I certainly would not do it in any of my cars.
> 
> Call me old fashioned.


This. 

Not necessary, but it does help. Cheap insurance in my eyes


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

JohnnyAlpaca said:


> Rifle drilling is not necessary. In fact, I certainly would not do it in any of my cars.
> 
> Call me old fashioned.


Could you explain why


----------



## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> Could you explain why


Just a preference. I don't like the idea of paying to get holes drilled on my rods.
100% preference. Just like I dislike manual belt tensioners.


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Here what Cassidy from IE sent me by email.




> The rifle drilling is not absolutely required, but it helps greatly to
> >extend the life of the pin bushings. Although they stay oiled from the
> >oil squirters, the drilling still helps, as it forces oil to the pins
> >at all times. It keeps a film of oil around the entire pin, reducing
> ...


So i am convinced that they are an upgrade for the rods, what i want to see if 1.5mm diameter is enough.

eace:


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

JohnnyAlpaca said:


> Just a preference. I don't like the idea of paying to get holes drilled on my rods.
> 100% preference. Just like I dislike manual belt tensioners.


I didn't like paying either..lol
However the factory rods are rifle drilled so VW also thought it was necessary...especially on a daily driver car. I feel like you if are going to upgrade to a stronger and better rod, it shouldn't have any shortcomings. Plus without proper lubrication to the wrist pin you can get some clacking noise if you are unlucky.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Here what Cassidy from IE sent me by email.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1.5mm should be sufficient.:thumbup:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> 1.5mm should be sufficient.:thumbup:


Cheers for the confirmation.

I should get the rods shipped on the 29th. And will book for the engine restore on the 23rd of September, since i will be travelling to Italy from 7th to 19th of September... You know... It is my wedding anniversary


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Cheers for the confirmation.
> 
> I should get the rods shipped on the 29th. And will book for the engine restore on the 23rd of September, since i will be travelling to Italy from 7th to 19th of September... You know... It is my wedding anniversary


Sweet! Congrats!


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

So I pulled a factory 1.8t rod and the rifle drilled hole is 4-5mm. So clearly VW thought highly of have a oil supply to the wrist pin. IE's hole is not that big. The hole in the bearing is only bout 1.5-2mm. So you can go bigger than 1.5mm and it would be a wise decision. I would say from memory that IE's hole is *maybe* 2.5-3mm.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Here what Cassidy from IE sent me by email.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


where are you getting the rods from?


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> where are you getting the rods from?


I am getting them from Hurricane.
This factory provides rods to many well known company in the States, them mentioned some but i cannot tell it.

If these rods worked well on my car, i am thinking of getting a batch to sell it here


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I am getting them from Hurricane.
> This factory provides rods to many well known company in the States, them mentioned some but i cannot tell it.
> 
> If these rods worked well on my car, i am thinking of getting a batch to sell it here


Did you catch my notes above on hole size?


----------



## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Rods are not required for this turbo BTW.

Unless you are running E85, I wouldn't worry too much with a proper tune. There isn't that much torque with pump gas.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

JohnnyAlpaca said:


> Rods are not required for this turbo BTW.
> 
> Unless you are running E85, I wouldn't worry too much with a proper tune. There isn't that much torque with pump gas.


He has a mechanic freshening up the motor. Already pulling the rods to replace piston rings and bearings so....


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

wait. so, are those cheap rods rifle drilled ? lol 

and what size wrist pin are they ?


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> wait. so, are those cheap rods rifle drilled ? lol
> 
> and what size wrist pin are they ?


Can be, yes and 19mm


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

JohnnyAlpaca said:


> Rods are not required for this turbo BTW.
> 
> Unless you are running E85, I wouldn't worry too much with a proper tune. There isn't that much torque with pump gas.


As Twopnt016v told you, I am having my engine restore and other than the the ring piston, i am changing the rods bearing, and in this way i can have a more agressive tune and maybe run a nos later on, so the guys here convinced me to go for it.





BR_337 said:


> wait. so, are those cheap rods rifle drilled ? lol
> 
> and what size wrist pin are they ?


Yes man, this factory provide Ferrari F1 car with some steel product, check the logo on the ferrari car :laugh:, you can have a 19mm or 20mm(Like mine) wrist pin in H, I, X beam and you can have them rifle drilled for 8$ per rod.

:beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

just checked their page..

The rod main measurements are as follow:
Center To Center Lenght
5.670''
Big End Bore Diameter
1.992''
Pin End Bore Diameter
0.787'' * = 19.9898 mm * SO ITS 20MM right 
Big End Width
0.981''


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> just checked their page..
> 
> The rod main measurements are as follow:
> Center To Center Lenght
> ...


Yes, I have AWD engine code, my wrist pin is 20mm


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Yes, I have AWD engine code, my wrist pin is 20mm


yea ! i need 19mm AWP


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> yea ! i need 19mm AWP


yes, they do 19mm one. 
but their MOQ is 60pieces, i am getting this one as a test, and i will get a batch of 30 sets to sell them if i find them a good quality. that is why they accepted to give me one set.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> yes, they do 19mm one.
> but their MOQ is 60pieces, i am getting this one as a test, and i will get a batch of 30 sets to sell them if i find them a good quality. that is why they accepted to give me one set.


oh gotcha !:thumbup:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hope it is gonna be a safe and calm week end after the 2 explosions we had in Tripoli, though i bought a lot of stuff to do my own custom aluminum oil catch can.

I got a chinese catch can with 12mm OD in/outlet, 50cm of aluminum pipe 19mm OD, aluminum welding sticks, my asythelene / oxigene welding machine, 5 flat plates 2mm thikness to do inside filter, 8mm aluminum elbows to do the draining...

I promise you guys with a lot of pics... the fun is in building not in buying, right?

:beer:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Did you catch my notes above on hole size?


Sorry man, i didn't notice the post.

I asked IE about the hole diameter and Cassidy reverted:



> That rifle drill hole should work, ours is a bit larger, it is .063”.


So IE hole is around 1.7mm, i think mine should work.

Cheers for the info and support.

:beer:


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Sorry man, i didn't notice the post.
> 
> I asked IE about the hole diameter and Cassidy reverted:
> 
> ...


Thanks for reporting back the size of the IE hole:thumbup::beer:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Hope it is gonna be a safe and calm week end after the 2 explosions we had in Tripoli, though i bought a lot of stuff to do my own custom aluminum oil catch can.
> 
> I got a chinese catch can with 12mm OD in/outlet, 50cm of aluminum pipe 19mm OD, aluminum welding sticks, my asythelene / oxigene welding machine, 5 flat plates 2mm thikness to do inside filter, 8mm aluminum elbows to do the draining...
> 
> ...


Project Custom oil catch can in Aluminum - Status : FAILURE. 

Tomorrow will try do do it in Cooper instead of Aluminum...


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Dyi - custom oil catch can*

Hi,

Was busy week-end... i wastrying to do my own oil catch can in aluminum but i failed, because i was welding it with acytelen and O2 and the welding tube in soft aluminum plus borax powder, the problem is that you need to heat up the aluminum so you can weld it but at certain temp it melt, so i couldn't.. here some photos of how it melt.




















So i decided to do them in copper, since it is easier for me and my old man, but first i had to prepare the internal filter so i bought 5 aluminum disks









And i had to drill them with 2.5 mm holes as below 



























After that i bought a piece of copper plate 37x20cm and roll it in a machine store and the guy was so nice to do the head and bottom of it as cylinder too for 21$ over all.
Here is the pic










My dad welding the can











Meantime, i was doing the internal filter, and here it is


















Filter finished










Inserted inside the can










And welding it and finished











I know, i know, i will sand it and paint it, i already bought all the needed stuff for 13$.

When i am done i will post the final pic, the whole thing costed me around 35$ and half day working in it.

Cheers,:beer:


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I think you should go full steampunk on the bay!


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I bet that thing is going to work better than that stupid $400 can BFI sells too


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> I bet that thing is going to work better than that stupid $400 can BFI sells too


Best can I've ever had was made from an old sea foam bottle some fittings and some steel wool. I packed it tight with steel wool add fittings and the bottle top acts as an easy drain. It collected more crap than any CC I've ever seen. I also used it as a return system not VTA and my intake had not one drop of oil or funk in it. 

I think he should add steel wool to the top part of the can as well, it does an amazing job filtering out the last bit of funk. It also seems to pull out more condensation.


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> I bet that thing is going to work better than that stupid $400 can BFI sells too





DMVDUB said:


> I think you should go full steampunk on the bay!


Do you really think I should keep it in copper? It will be weird in my engine bay since all the hoses are in blue and I am going to paint the valve cover and the intake Mani in blue too? I really dunno!!!




DMVDUB said:


> Best can I've ever had was made from an old sea foam bottle some fittings and some steel wool. I packed it tight with steel wool add fittings and the bottle top acts as an easy drain. It collected more crap than any CC I've ever seen. I also used it as a return system not VTA and my intake had not one drop of oil or funk in it.
> 
> I think he should add steel wool to the top part of the can as well, it does an amazing job filtering out the last bit of funk. It also seems to pull out more condensation.


I made lots of research on buffle oil filter and wool steel before proceeding and they seem to be hard to clean once inside the can. With the current filter I garrenty best condensation espesially withe upper disk plate cut ten like a turbine.




Dave926 said:


> I bet that thing is going to work better than that stupid $400 can BFI sells too


I am sure it will... 400$ for a can is insane!!!eace:


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

DMVDUB,

You mentioned you're running multiple tunes. Do you toggle the different tunes using the cruise control like APR's are done? I'm currently running a Full Stage 1 APR Tune (91,93,100) and that's how I toggle the different programs.

I'm currently doing research on the different software options for my F21 and plan on doing the fuel/FPR/Tune some time in the future. 

I'm guessing I should go with a standard tune like Unitronics since I don't plan on doing many mods anytime soon. Sounds like your going for some big #'s on your F21 OP. What's HP #'s you going for LEBGTIMK4?

I'd be happy to pull around 270whp out of my F21 but I have to do hail damage repair before mods. Last week I got over 2k in hail damage.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

gli87jetta said:


> DMVDUB,
> 
> You mentioned you're running multiple tunes. Do you toggle the different tunes using the cruise control like APR's are done? I'm currently running a Full Stage 1 APR Tune (91,93,100) and that's how I toggle the different programs.
> 
> ...


I have Maestro.

I have more files than I can count. 

I have to flash them every time I change. Takes ~2-5min. 

I'm not running a F21 I run a GTT

I get bored easy and don't care about my car so I pour everything from E85 to 110LL Avgas in my car to see if it makes a difference. 

In reality, I'm only here because there's a few people I'm helping out off of the forum, but I still lurk. I'm pretty much bored of the 1.8t. My Jeep and my Lexus are much more interesting. 

DISCLAIMER
Not sure you want to associate with me, it could cause conjecture, voided warranties and all out scandalous conspiracies. I'm apparently the Sowden of Vortex :sly:


----------



## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

Thanks for the info DMVDUB. I was thinking you might be flashing the ECU vs changing programs via the cruise control.


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

Hi there.

I just installed an F21 this weekend and want to give you some tips/hints.


For the exhaust manifold, I used these nuts. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10mm-8mm-Nu...d=100012&prg=1014&rk=5&rkt=5&sd=280703223309& (zinc coated)

I don't think the 12mm nuts would've even cleared the manifold without having to grind off some of the manifold. Heating the studs up would help a lot.

Also I used a snap-on 1/4" drive 10mm universal socket.. not sure if that's available in Lebanon or what the standards for tools are, but thin walled and u-joint is what you will need.

The turbo inlet pipe is not perfect but I seem to be the only one having issues. Aside from the install being a tight job (as with any TIP not just the frankenturbo one) the holes don't line up. I needed to hack up my IC piping to create a new bung for my diverter valve, and the PCV valve hole is right up against my IC piping. This was not the case with my OEM inlet pipe. Also on the note of the PCV valve, i have a 25mm version and the inlet pipe is meant for the 19mm version. As of now it doesn't matter since I need to create a separate route from the PCV valve to the inlet pipe rather than directly attach it on. My OEM airbox fits sort of, I was only able to get one of the mounting bolts in. Doesn't matter too much, i'm switching to a cone filter soon since the oem airbox is a pain in the ass to take out every time. 

I emailed Doug about the TIP but forgot it was Labor day weekend so I will wait and see what he says. Not going to make it "full blown" public by making a thread, just wanted to give you a heads up.

As far as the actuator issues, do your own test. Mine was marked for 8psi, and it started to crack open between 8-9 psi. My test was using one of these http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-chuck-tire-inflator-with-dial-gauge-68271.html with a swapped and very accurate pressure gauge that was meant for air conditioning systems, and a schrader valve from a bicycle tube (with the metal stem), joined together with a rubber hose and hose clamps. obviously one end goes to the inflator one end goes to the wastegate actuator. I have a Craftsman compressor with a regulator so i just played with the regulator until i saw 8-9 psi on my tire inflator gauge and watched the wastegate open. I'm a little concerned because I am on a stock tune and the wastegate does not fully open at the stock boost level of 12psi but I will see how it goes (i do have an MBC, and unitronic to come soon). 

Maybe Doug actually recently started testing the WGA before sending them out, maybe I got lucky, maybe other people are having issues. Not pointing fingers as I don't really care (at least right now). In any case, do your own testing on the WGA just to make sure. 

All in all, the install was pretty straightforward and not terribly difficult except for the TIP. I can't tell you yet how it feels since I'm waiting for some JB weld to cure on my IC piping before I can start the car up and give it a test drive. 

Best of luck


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

I did not have said problem with the TIP. It worked fine for me and had everything line up where it should. I think Doug supplied a tbolt clamp with the kit for the TIP to turbo connection. I did not use it as it would force the TIP to slide off when tightening it. I used a regular worm style clamp and have not had issues. Craftsman also makes some thin walled universal sockets in 10mm if the OP can find those easier. It's a must to have one for the job. Also make sure you have all the nuts started before tightening as you have to pull the manifold off the head to get some to start.:thumbup:

edit...Jonpwn....that was a good find on those nuts with the 10mm head. I bet those made the install much easier!:beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

jonpwn said:


> Maybe Doug actually recently started testing the WGA before sending them out, maybe I got lucky, maybe other people are having issues.


There really aren't any maybes associated with our F21T's actuator preload. They are all tested and set at the 8psi preload you saw with your equipment.


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

yes, as stated you need to get the manifold on, let it "dangle" so to speak, catch all the nuts, then start tightening them. The 10mm nuts saved my life. I even did research before buying them as far as what material they should be, and zinc plated seemed to be ok but not as common as copper. 

I managed to make the TIP work with my FMIC piping. It's not easy but nothing is standard once you start customizing things so it is what it is. Doug was great, he responded on Labor Day although I had already figured out a solution. 

and as far as the actuator, i'm not sure why everyone is/was having the issues they were having. But I won't start that conversation, OP just test to make sure. Won't hurt right?

For an update, my car started. It burnt a lot of oil as I let it idle to 190 degrees to open up the thermostat and refill all the coolant. I drove about 3 short miles and when I came back there was still some white smoke coming from right above the exhaust manifold. I did use a lot of copper anti-sieze on the exhaust manifold nuts, studs, and turbo-downpipe studs. I'll give it a few days before I start suspecting other things. 

I didn't push the car past like 2 psi, I need to adjust my MBC first. I realized i put it right above the turbo under the windshield cowl, so I need to figure out how to reroute those lines so the MBC and plastic Tee's don't get too hot and possibly melt.. 

For now the car runs and can get me to school. I'll dial in the MBC later on and see how things go.

Edit: Doug, I wasn't trying to be offensive with my wording. Just unsure of what the issues have been lately..:screwy:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> yes, as stated you need to get the manifold on, let it "dangle" so to speak, catch all the nuts, then start tightening them. The 10mm nuts saved my life. I even did research before buying them as far as what material they should be, and zinc plated seemed to be ok but not as common as copper.
> 
> I managed to make the TIP work with my FMIC piping. It's not easy but nothing is standard once you start customizing things so it is what it is. Doug was great, he responded on Labor Day although I had already figured out a solution.
> 
> ...


If you want a quick an better solution than waiting to dial in the MBC, just run the Wastegate line to your boost source on you intercooler piping. You'll run the 8psi pressure it's set to. Running 2psi is just going to be low powered and over rich. At least 8psi will be peppy and have enough flow to not be rich.


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

Dmvdub, thank you for the suggestion. I actually tried dialing in my mbc the same way I tested the actuator, but it was making weird noises when the pressure overcame the ball/spring (almost likethe raspberry sound that children make). I figured I'd just start from the lowest setting and work my way up, not hitting the gas hard and stopping if I see more than 12 psi.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey Guys,

Some Update, the car is at the mechanic for a week now and i should get is in the coming couple of days. I did the Whole engine rebiuld with Rods, and will be installing the F21T and they cleaned all the IC pipes and the FMIC, i changed the oil hoses to new customized one that provide the Turbo with continuous oil with no way they get blocked by junks.

I preset my WG to 10 PSI and when i tested it, at 8 psi you can feel the WG loose and at 10 PSI it is around 1mm open.

will keep you posted when i get the car, and i will have to drive it easily for around 400 miles as recommended by Mechanic.

I have a MBC from Overboost kit solution, but do i really have to install it before the remap??

Cheers,


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

good to hear from you again!

I think some kind of extra boost controller is necessary if you are running on stock tune. To my understanding, the stock ECU cannot bleed enough pressure from the n75 to open the wastegate actuator if the WGA is set to something as high as 8 or in your case 10 psi. This may be wrong, so hopefully someone can confirm or correct this. 

right now i am running my MBC and n75 in parallel, and sometimes boost is smooth sometimes it is not. I'm still working out my issues. Although the easiest way as DMVDUB mentioned, which i tried, is to run a line from the intercooler piping to the wastegate actuator. In that setup I saw no more than 8psi boost (setting on my f21 WGA) which is as expected.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Car Delivered*

Hi,

I just got the car 30 minutes ago, I installed the F21T kit and Engine was rebuild... It costed me around 1200$ +900$ the parts i bought (Rods, Rods Bearing, and Whole Engine gasket kit,...)

But i am ok with that hoping to get the result i want, the mechanic told me i have to drive it for around 500 miles below 3500RPM and then i can remap it...

the F21T kit was straight bolt on without any modification since the engine was off the car, the mechanic did not find anything hard; the exhaust manifold was easy to install, the TIP was also piece of cake, but the hole of the DV is right near the Valve cover so they had to put a separation between them. 

I ordered today the Eurodyne Maestro  and i paid the money.

I am happy overall, still have to work on the headlights since some bulbs didn't work properly.

will keep you posted guys and Pictures coming soon.

Cheers,:beer:

Edit: I did not install a MBC in parallel since i am not accelerating hardly and i should let the boost goes more than 4~5 psi.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hi Guys,

I want to know if what i am facing is natural and ok.

when i reach 9~10 Psi and i remove my foot from the Pedal i hear the Air dumping, but i am used to hear it as continuous "WHOUSHHHHH" with the OEM turbo, but now with F21T the sound is louder and cutting like several whoush it is something like "WHOUSH SH SH SH".

Is that fine and ok? or anything wrong?

thank you in advance,


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

It has something to do with the diverter valve. Mine has done that as well ever since I put on the F21 but it is very subtle. I barely notice it. 

Although do a vacuum leak check to rule out anything of that nature.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

You should be pressure testing after all of this work as well. Not sure if your guy has or not. FWIW, mine makes a lot of noise also. But Im running the MM DV.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> It has something to do with the diverter valve. Mine has done that as well ever since I put on the F21 but it is very subtle. I barely notice it.
> 
> Although do a vacuum leak check to rule out anything of that nature.


Frankly, I like the sound and i cannot try it hard since i have to drive the car below 3k RPM for the next 500 miles, it is for the Engine safety after the rebuild. But i was afraid that it might have something to do with the Turbo compressor, and i cannot take the boost more than 8~9 PSI since i am on stock tune without MBC.



warranty225cpe said:


> You should be pressure testing after all of this work as well. Not sure if your guy has or not. FWIW, mine makes a lot of noise also. But Im running the MM DV.


There is no leaks in boost or vac we did the test, the sound is nice but as long it has nothing to do with the turbo I am fine with it.

I was asking because i remember reading somewhere that it could be a compressor flattering... Right?

Cheers,


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

yes I was trying to find a thread about it.. I remember another guy with a TT had this issue and people were mentioning that his DV was not opening. 

what do you mean by "compressor flattering"? there are a lot of different names for different sounds. does it sound like this during acceleration?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCj6Spwl1CU

otherwise the "WHOUSH SH SH SH" that you described has to do with the charge pressure release, aka your diverter valve. still not sure what would cuase that noise other than a bag signal (vac line) to the DV.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

repost from the ebay rod thread....

Your mechanic doesn't know how to brake engines in for power. Hopefully he knows how to the seat rings properly. Did he use break in oil? did he change it? Drive it above 3k...you will be alright

have a read, this is a moto article but applies to engines in general. 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> repost from the ebay rod thread....
> 
> Your mechanic doesn't know how to brake engines in for power. Hopefully he knows how to the seat rings properly. Did he use break in oil? did he change it? Drive it above 3k...you will be alright
> 
> ...


Buddy, maybe i didn't mention it all, the wall of the cylinders were not good too so they had to take it to a machinary shop and bore it around 3mm each cylinder and then insert a custom made piston wall that is why he said that i have to drive it easily for only 500 miles and then i should change the oil and its filter because there might be some small metal crap inside it.

Can you please explain more about "how to brake engines in for power" and "Did he use break in oil".

thank you in advance, :beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Buddy, maybe i didn't mention it all, the wall of the cylinders were not good too so they had to take it to a machinary shop and bore it around 3mm each cylinder and then insert a custom made piston wall that is why he said that i have to drive it easily for only 500 miles and then i should change the oil and its filter because there might be some small metal crap inside it.
> 
> Can you please explain more about "how to brake engines in for power" and "Did he use break in oil".
> 
> thank you in advance, :beer:


Damn that sounds crazy especially since the car was running fine prior.. Any pics of the cylinder walls? He should have just been doing a fresh hone and thats it. Read the article and you will understand what I mean about breaking in engines for power. Basically there are two rules of thought when it comes to breaking in engines. 1 is to baby the engine and the other is to drive it hard. Once you seat the rings you *shouldn't* baby the car around or essential you end up with a "slower" engine vs one that has been driven hard. Read the article and it will paint a good picture for you. Break in oil has high levels of ZINC that help seat the rings and keep micro welding of the ringlands from occurring. You should always use break in oil or add zinc when breaking engines in.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Damn that sounds crazy especially since the car was running fine prior.. Any pics of the cylinder walls? He should have just been doing a fresh hone and thats it. Read the article and you will understand what I mean about breaking in engines for power. Basically there are two rules of thought when it comes to breaking in engines. 1 is to baby the engine and the other is to drive it hard. Once you seat the rings you *shouldn't* baby the car around or essential you end up with a "slower" engine vs one that has been driven hard. Read the article and it will paint a good picture for you. Break in oil has high levels of ZINC that help seat the rings and keep micro welding of the ringlands from occurring. You should always use break in oil or add zinc when breaking engines in.


 i read the article and i understood what you mean!!! That's a bit strange cause it is the first time i hear someone break in the engine hardly for power engine and frankly i am afraid to do it. Maybe tonight I will drive it from 2nd gear till redline and 3rd gear to redline since i am already on 140 miles... But are you sure it won't hurt the engine???

As for the Zinc oil thing, i am sure he did not do it... what should i do know any suggestion?

cheers,


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> i read the article and i understood what you mean!!! That's a bit strange cause it is the first time i hear someone break in the engine hardly for power engine and frankly i am afraid to do it. Maybe tonight I will drive it from 2nd gear till redline and 3rd gear to redline since i am already on 140 miles... But are you sure it won't hurt the engine???
> 
> As for the Zinc oil thing, i am sure he did not do it... what should i do know any suggestion?
> 
> cheers,


Beat the piss out of it buddy  As long as you've got proper break in oil and the mechanic put it together properly you'll be good.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

*W/M*

Hi Guys,

some updates, the engine is rebuilt and break in done, I installed the 500cc Genesis II with 4 bar FPR, and the most important part I got Eurodyne finally!!!

I will be telling lots of stories about Eurodyne and giving lots of credits, but now I am aiming for a W/M, and I want to run the kit with MAF progressive controller so I want to know if this devilsown kit is the right one, please check it and tell me if it is the good choice, I don't want AEM nor Snowperformance, so skip that.

and I will have dual nozzle, first nozzle 63ml/min and the second nozzle 126ml/min.

your comment well appreciated.

Cheers,


----------



## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

Are you creating your own file with 500cc and 4bar fpr?

Also can I ask why you don't want to go aem or snowperformance? I want to do watermeth soon as well.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> Are you creating your own file with 500cc and 4bar fpr?
> 
> Also can I ask why you don't want to go aem or snowperformance? I want to do watermeth soon as well.


I have a base file and we are going from there... i am having a lot lot lot of help from a buddy from vortex, yes we went created a file with 500cc genesis II injector with 4bar FPR and i am hiting 24psi at 3k rpm and tapes to 20 psi at redline without MBC using N75 only... Yes, we made to tune the F21 without a MBC and the power is smooth and great.. i will be posting full details once the file is finalized...

I chose the Devilsown instead of AEM or snow because it is cheaper and heard some good review about it, and it is easier and cheaper to ship to my country..

Cheers,


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Off topic stuff was moved here...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6872960-Frankenturbo-Gonzo-Blah-blah


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

groggory said:


> Off topic stuff was moved here...
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6872960-Frankenturbo-Gonzo-Blah-blah


LOL :laugh:

Seriously though, 

His mechanic bored and sleeved his motor. I've never seen anyone do this on a 1.8T... Second I have him down to the lowest timing I've ever used, EVER! and it knocks everywhere. It knocks at IDLE. It's not running rich so that's not a cause, the timing is low so that shouldn't be a cause, IAT's normal, Coolant normal... 

I'm wondering if he's getting piston slap? 

It's hard diagnosing a motor thousands of miles away, and his mechanic doesn't seem to know what he's doing. 

It's not just showing a little knock on 1 or 2 cylinders it's a little to a lot on all cylinders. It happens no boost, idle, everywhere. He's also getting smoke from the exhaust. :banghead:

Comments? Suggestions?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> LOL :laugh:
> 
> Seriously though,
> 
> ...


Is the engine consuming oil?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

groggory said:


> Is the engine consuming oil?


He'll have to let you know about that.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's an example of what I'm seeing. 


*RPM KNOCK CF*
867 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
865.25 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
857.25 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
816.25 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
846 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
887 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
838.25 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
852.25 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
866.75 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
869 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25
1005.25 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
1125.75 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25	-2.25	
1292.5 -2.25	-2.25	-2.25


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

What about a loose knock sensor?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

groggory said:


> What about a loose knock sensor?


I've thought about that. He needs to check them.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Log knock voltage


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

It's going through oil


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> It's going through oil


I think the car should have a leak down test done. See if the rings, valves, and valve seals are sealed up tight. Have this done by someone who knows how to do a leak down test so they know what to check for.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

groggory said:


> I think the car should have a leak down test done. See if the rings, valves, and valve seals are sealed up tight. Have this done by someone who knows how to do a leak down test so they know what to check for.


This was my recommendation as well. I believe he took it back to the same mechanic to do it, and he told him it was fine. I said take it somewhere else, this guy botched putting in rods and is trying to cover it up. 

The ONLY reason I can think that the guy sleeved the motor would be he didn't understand what he was supposed to do and bored it before realizing he was to use the stock pistons. Unless he somehow screwed up honing the cylinders and then sleeved it to cover it up....

I don't know but this guy need to fix Fouad's car without charging him!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

When I ask for a leak down test to be done, I have a gut feeling people usually do compression tests.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

groggory said:


> When I ask for a leak down test to be done, I have a gut feeling people usually do compression tests.


Yeah, it's pretty funny how many "Master" mechanics don't have a clue what a leak down test is or what it's for.:banghead:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

First of all, thank you Greg for deleting the crap of my thread, people are really fad up from people ruining our threads..

Now i am getting white smoke from the tailpipe and the engine is consuming oil. The smoke is not always it is when i am driving down a hill without using the gas pedal and then when i accelerate i got the white smoke... 

I doubt the guy can do a leak down test but he can do a compression test. He did it for me one before the engine rebuild and i got 150 psi at that time...

So i am sure the mechanic will repair the car for free, but mainly he will do me new sleeves, i want to know if that will solve it out.

Now i will try to check the knock sensor, maybe it is loose, but i doubt because of the oil consumption and white smoke..

So what do u guys suggest??

Cheers,


----------



## [email protected]rbo.com (Jul 1, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Now i will try to check the knock sensor, maybe it is loose, but i doubt because of the oil consumption and white smoke..
> 
> So what do u guys suggest??


I'd expect your chronic timing corrections are just another symptom of whatever is causing the car to smoke. Once your tech diagnoses one, you'll probably have an explanation for the other.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> When I ask for a leak down test to be done, I have a gut feeling people usually do compression tests.


Typically you would perform a compression test prior to a leak down test and some times a compression test is sufficient . A leakdown test will also cost you more money as it is more time consuming and involved. Also for the DIYer in order to perform a leak down test they need the tool and an air compressor. Where a compression test you only need to have a tester which you can rent. However I do agree with your statement which is why I have 2 leak down testers in my toolbox.:laugh:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Cool trick I found on Youtube for checking Valves (obvious just an all around check not specific to what cylinder)


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> Cool trick I found on Youtube for checking Valves (obvious just an all around check not specific to what cylinder)


Cheers Matt, can you post the link of piston slap please?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)




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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)




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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Could also be an issue with how the head was installed. Over torqued cracked, leaking coolant into cylinders. 

Check oil for coolant and coolant for oil. 

There's literally so many things that can cause these issues it's sort of ridiculous. 

Possible

1. Wrong size sleeve, piston slap
2. Stuck, sticky valve
3. Cracked head
4. Loose knock sensor
5. Rings set wrong


and more...


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Was posting in the BS thread earlier, but after reading here, I have some new questions. Why was the motor bored out to 83mm? Did you explode a rod or melt a piston? Have you hit full boost at all since rebuilding the motor? Did the knocking start the very first time you started up the engine after the rebuild?
In any case, it might be better for you, at this point, to get a torque wrench and a Bentley manual and figure out how to tear the motor down yourself (and, subsequently, put it back together). Also, you might want to start looking into legal action to get a refund and possibly a new block, gaskets, etc. from your "mechanic".


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Chris164935 said:


> Was posting in the BS thread earlier, but after reading here, I have some new questions. Why was the motor bored out to 83mm? Did you explode a rod or melt a piston? Have you hit full boost at all since rebuilding the motor? Did the knocking start the very first time you started up the engine after the rebuild?
> In any case, it might be better for you, at this point, to get a torque wrench and a Bentley manual and figure out how to tear the motor down yourself (and, subsequently, put it back together). Also, you might want to start looking into legal action to get a refund and possibly a new block, gaskets, etc. from your "mechanic".


I was having some oil consumption and after a compression test I got around 150psi and I was changing the turbo and getting new rods and doing engine restoring. Then the Mechanic told me that he need to Bore and sleeves the cylinder because its wall were wore a lot. and that what he does.

after the restore I broke in the engine slowly for 550miles and I change the oil then and did the remap, and yes I was hitting 23~25psi and did not have any white smoke. 

I had some knocking in the beginning but I think it was a little and under boost while tweaking the tune, but now I am having knock on Idle.

getting a torque wrench and a Bentley manual to do it myself is out of question I don't have time to do it and my mechanic will do it for me without a problem, maybe this guy did something wrong but still he is one of the best here... maybe some of his employee screw something up, I don't know.

What I want to know is:
1-What's happening?
2- What caused it? because as said before I drove the car for 1000miles without any problem!!!


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Are the rods in backwards? 1.8's are directional.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Brake Weight said:


> Are the rods in backwards? 1.8's are directional.


Backwards?? The rods I got are the same from both side, so I didn't got ya


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Pistons I meant. Hadn't had my morning coffee yet. The pistons are directional.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

I will have to wait till Monday, I will be at the mechanic.
we will do compression test, check the spark plugs, use stethoscope to check any knock or slap, I will also check the knock sensor maybe they can be loose, we will do a diagnostic for the damn car  before removing the head block...
I have suspicious that I am dealing with 2 problems, a loose knock sensor which is causing the knock, and a bad valve seal which is causing the white smoke... I hope to be lucky to have it this way...
What I cannot not understand, if I have a piston slap why the F*** it happened after 1000 miles after the car was tuned and not directly during the break in???


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Can you hear the knock?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

No man, I cannot hear a knock sound.

Yesterday, I was at my friend place and he works in the garage of Audi dealer in Lebanon and he is a Mechanical engineer, so he said these blocks should never ever been bored  unless you are going for bigger pistons!!!

I run the car on idle for 4+ minutes so he checked the engine sound and he said it is normal, and after that I give it some hard press on gas pedal and it blew some white smoke, then he checked the engine sound with a flat screw drive (he did not have a stethoscope at his house) , he told me I have a very very little knock sound but it is not major. But he is 99% sure the smoke problem are piston rings, and he said 85% the knock is from the sleeves because they could be done in a bad way and they are scratched and wear and this might be the knock. I asked him about Pistons slap, he said the engine sound is normal and if I had any slap the sound would be very obvious.

He suggested to go back to my mechanic and tell him to get a new bottom block with new piston rings, and if it was a piston slap I should get new rods bearings too. To get a good 30w oil for break in and to do a hard break in and not easy one!!!

So twopnt016v you were right about the break in issue man :beer:... 

DMVDUB we went for a ride after that and he noticed that on the 2nd gear when the wheel spins I get only 15psi of boost and at 5k+ RPM I have one big misfire, only one , and when we want to stop when I press the clutch pedal with the brake, the RPM goes down to 400 then up to 1600 then to 880 and stay there solid rock. he told me this could make knock when I am doing logs, so he suggested to do more logs on idles and send them to you, what do you think?

that's all for now, tell me what do you think guys, could it just be the problem??? 

:beer::beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> No man, I cannot hear a knock sound.
> 
> Yesterday, I was at my friend place and he works in the garage of Audi dealer in Lebanon and he is a Mechanical engineer, so he said these blocks should never ever been bored  unless you are going for bigger pistons!!!
> 
> ...


Glad you are getting somewhere man! I wouldn't bother with any other logs or anything until you get a new engine. Your are wasting your time trying to get the car to run right with that engine. Misfire can cut boost also. The price I quoted you for rings and bearings would be the "shops price" not the price at IE. Like I said before, you should get another engine and have someone pull the pan and head, hone the cylinder walls, replace the rings and replace the bearings. Check bearing clearances with the plastigauge. You can order plastigauge off the internet or maybe when you order some parts someone can do you a favor and pic up some at the local autoparts store and toss it in your package since you are out of the country. To be clear you should not be buying rings and bearings, the shop should. I would *highly* advise against using the same old bearings or bad things *can* happen. Those bearings have already been "mated" to the old block and crank and should not be transfered to the the new block and crank.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Glad you are getting somewhere man! I wouldn't bother with any other logs or anything until you get a new engine. Your are wasting your time trying to get the car to run right with that engine. Misfire can cut boost also. The price I quoted you for rings and bearings would be the "shops price" not the price at IE. Like I said before, you should get another engine and have someone pull the pan and head, hone the cylinder walls, replace the rings and replace the bearings. Check bearing clearances with the plastigauge. You can order plastigauge off the internet or maybe when you order some parts someone can do you a favor and pic up some at the local autoparts store and toss it in your package since you are out of the country. To be clear you should not be buying rings and bearings, the shop should. I would *highly* advise against using the same old bearings or bad things *can* happen. Those bearings have already been "mated" to the old block and crank and should not be transfered to the the new block and crank.


The bearings cost 60$ so it is not a big deal!!! but I have an informative question, do I have to change the crank too?? what about my new rods?? If the bearings are damaged, what about he crank and rods??

Is OE bearing and ring ok? or should I get OEM ones?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> The bearings cost 60$ so it is not a big deal!!! but I have an informative question, do I have to change the crank too?? what about my new rods?? If the bearings are damaged, what about he crank and rods??
> 
> Is OE bearing and ring ok? or should I get OEM ones?


OE bearings and rings are just fine. I'm running both stock rings and bearings with more power than you:thumbup:. Your rods will be fine. Use the crank that is in the "new" motor.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> OE bearings and rings are just fine. I'm running both stock rings and bearings with more power than you:thumbup:. Your rods will be fine. Use the crank that is in the "new" motor.


I am trying to order some plastigauge from UK since the shipping cost less, but which clearance I should get 0.001" to .007" (Red pack I think)??


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I am trying to order some plastigauge from UK since the shipping cost less, but which clearance I should get 0.001" to .007" (Red pack I think)??


I always use the green pack...
Plastigage, Green Kit, 0.001 in.-0.003 in./.025mm-.076mm, Range


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok guys, I was going to do some Logs, I plugged the Maestro cable in the car and in my Laptop, and when I clicked on "Eurodyne Flash" icon I got the below message

"LOCK SYSTEM
Your expiration date is reached! You need to purchase a license file to run this software."

I cannot understand it Doug bought me this file from Eurodyne and what is wrong now???


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Ok guys, I was going to do some Logs, I plugged the Maestro cable in the car and in my Laptop, and when I clicked on "Eurodyne Flash" icon I got the below message
> 
> "LOCK SYSTEM
> Your expiration date is reached! You need to purchase a license file to run this software."
> ...


Login to his site and re download the software and install it. You'll be good to go.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Login to his site and re download the software and install it. You'll be good to go.


He's all fixed up


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## Leonturbo (Nov 26, 2012)

Lebgtimk4, you are on good heands 
Matt know what he doing


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Login to his site and re download the software and install it. You'll be good to go.


Solved 




DMVDUB said:


> He's all fixed up


well I did the same for Maestro too 




Leonturbo said:


> Lebgtimk4, you are on good heands
> Matt know what he doing


Indeed neighbor , I know that!!! :beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok Guys,I visited the mechanic also today and I have to go 800 miles on my engine and my Mechanic said that the engine is his responsibilities so no problem if it fails he will replace it, he just asked to go for another 800 miles on it, he is suspisious about the Turbo  because he said the smoke is blue-ish and not white and the knock was from the bad Octane booster i used twice during the logs...

So i decided to proceed with my own tuning via Maestro, so i downloaded the F21 base file and i am running it with 4 bar 500cc G2 and it was set to it.

So i did 6 logs and everytime i finished a logs i did histogram for "pump gas timing map" and "injection correction", so i got 6 revision, finally i am gettin 0 knock correction on the Trace of the histogram and i am still having correction in the injection correction.

so i logged block # 1, 31, 32 and here is what i got

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0R-HOSej9mwMkZqQ01EUzdzNHM/edit

and here is the last log i got

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0R-HOSej9mwZC1EUHRza2NJVTg/edit

before i shut down the eurodyne flash i checked the trim and it was -25% so i guess i am running lean.

For the record i am running G2 500cc injectors, 4 bar bosch FPR, and walbro 255lph intank fuel pump.

please tell me your thought..

Cheers,


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Request for access to the google docs has been sent.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

groggory said:


> Request for access to the google docs has been sent.


i didn't got you man, what did you mean??


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## Mr_Long (Dec 9, 2003)

You need to grant users to see your google docs :beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

I hope it works now.

here is log for block 1 - 31 - 32

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0R-HOSej9mwS0t4TFF0VTlNWnM/edit

and here is a full log on my way home

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0R-HOSej9mwQkF4QkJWNmI4X28/edit

i hope it works..

P.S: I uploaded them here 
https://sites.google.com/site/vwpandit/database


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I hope it works now.
> 
> here is log for block 1 - 31 - 32
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0R-HOSej9mwS0t4TFF0VTlNWnM/edit


I don't know what to make of this. What is 'Fuel trim_-' and 'Fuel trim_- 2'?


```
Enginge speed_U/min 	Fuel trim_-     	Fuel trim_-     2
1600	1	1
1600	1	1
1560	1	1
1560	1	1
1560	1	1
1560	1	1
2080	1	1
2080	1	0.86
2080	1	0.86
2080	1	0.86
2840	1	0.86
2840	1	0.81
2840	1	0.81
2840	1	0.81
4600	1	0.81
4600	1	0.8
4600	1	0.8
4600	1	0.8
5880	1	0.8
5880	1	0.81
5880	1	0.81
5880	1	0.81
6400	1	0.81
6400	1	0.94
6400	1	0.94
6400	1	0.94
```


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

LOL!! I guess it show that i am new to these stuff!!! :banghead:

Greg, which blocks you suggest i log? 

I did a WOT on 2nd and 3rd gear while i pressed on Block measurement, so why it is empty??


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Blocks 1,31,32 would be great.

Your cruising around log was good, which tells me you knew what to do


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

I wouldn't use the histogram on timing map or anything right now! For start you need to make sure your fueling is all good before you start tuning. I personally like to see a nice taper on afr so as soon as you see boost it should richen up to 13 than by lets say 3800rpm you should be 12-11.3. Now once fueling is all good you can work on Maf corrections and then move from there. Once you get that done we can move on. I would set temp for full load lambada at 400 degrees and use the full load lambda map and modify that table for the correct afr. The frankenturbo tune btw sux but it's a good start.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

WiKKiDTT said:


> I wouldn't use the histogram on timing map or anything right now! For start you need to make sure your fueling is all good before you start tuning. I personally like to see a nice taper on afr so as soon as you see boost it should richen up to 13 than by lets say 3800rpm you should be 12-11.3. Now once fueling is all good you can work on Maf corrections and then move from there. Once you get that done we can move on. I would set temp for full load lambada at 400 degrees and use the full load lambda map and modify that table for the correct afr. The frankenturbo tune btw sux but it's a good start.


For the most part you can avoid MAF corrections if you do the rest correctly. 

I'm not sure if he's really using the base tune from Tapp or a Base tune I made for him. My base tune has buttery smooth boost onset and minimal fuel adaptation (550cc) compared to the file on download. I also have a secondary file with a very violent boost onset which wouldn't be advised for stock rod cars. He has both of these files and should be starting with my "safe" tune. 

Also, I personally don't base ANY of my files off of the FT+550cc+whatever.mstro files or any other Part Specific files. I've found using the Basic stage 3 VVT or Non depending on engine is the best. I do already have maps for different TB's, Intake manifolds, W/M, etc. that I'll import in, but that's nothing that can't be figured out by ones self. 

Another "trick" I'm working on is adjusting the X/Y axis' to be closer to the correction. I think Dave understood my point in doing this, but describing is difficult for me. It's essentially, you may have 20% IC at 3200rpm and -5% at 3800rpm. So in 600rpm we gained 25% more fuel? Seems so... What if we move the RPM closer (or further) to taper the IC (and other maps) further? So far I've seen a much smoother map. I'm guessing if there's a large jump in correction too close to an almost stoich' axis then it causes it to jump back and forth trying to find a balance. 

Not sure if that made sense to anyone or not... But that's it... 

Especially with the Frankenturbo the fuel trims are like chasing those pop a mole games...Up, down,Up,left,diagonal,backwards...whatever. I still can't figure that one out, why they do that. I'm guessing the boost isn't consistent over different runs? Not quite sure. I need to look at my FT MAF logs, they will tell me what is going on (if there's subtle changes in airflow). I'm going to guess this could be one reason people have an issue tuning these to N75 as well, but I'm not positive. I just know a GT3076 does the same thing over and over, and I can speculate at what the amount of correction will be before I see it.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

groggory said:


> Blocks 1,31,32 would be great.
> 
> Your cruising around log was good, which tells me you knew what to do


Well buddy, I use the search click a lot , and I had a great help from DMVDUB and we spent some nights on Teamviewer and he made me learn how to use Maestro!!! 
Isn't that so kind?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

WiKKiDTT said:


> I wouldn't use the histogram on timing map or anything right now! For start you need to make sure your fueling is all good before you start tuning. I personally like to see a nice taper on afr so as soon as you see boost it should richen up to 13 than by lets say 3800rpm you should be 12-11.3. Now once fueling is all good you can work on Maf corrections and then move from there. Once you get that done we can move on. I would set temp for full load lambada at 400 degrees and use the full load lambda map and modify that table for the correct afr. The frankenturbo tune btw sux but it's a good start.


Hi, I had the base file of F21 from Tapp, and I did around 8 logs and after each log I did histogram for timing and injection correction, now I have barely a timing correction but I know that I am running rich. so I will keep on working on timing and fuel till I get a good result then I will move to MAF correction if needed, because I am only seeing 160g/s...

In addition, I had the injectors constant .056 I lowered today to .054 and I changes the AFR map of the base FT file!!! It really get you rich with .81 @4k RPM with 60% load!!! So I did a smooth one from 1.0001 to .8214... I will be doing some logs and histogram for the injection correction today and will post the graphs here when I am done...

Indeed Matt's file were smooth with good power, he sent me a aggressive file but I did not try it yet because I had the smoke issue of my car...

Can you elaborate more about the temp you would set for full lambda?? and what 400 degree you mean, you know I am still a newb  :beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok Guys, I did some logs and i think i am slowly getting there, but I need your advise, so below are the logs on WOT 3rd gear.

SORRY THEY ARE REVERSED, YOU HAVE TO READ THEM FROM RIGHT TO LEFT!!! I HATE THAT ARABIC VERSION OF EXCEL:banghead:


BOOST










LAMBDA










TIMING ADVANCE










INTAKE TEMP










INJECTION TIMING










O2 CORRECTION










BOOST DUTY










MAF










tell me what you think guys and how should I improve it... I know that the MAF numbers are low so your advise now..

Cheers,:beer:


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Timing advance between 4-5000rpm don't look to healthy. Sure that's correct?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The injection time spike is weird as is the bump in fuel correction. Timing is odd too


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Did the motor situation ever get resolved or is it still smoking and knocking?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> Timing advance between 4-5000rpm don't look to healthy. Sure that's correct?


Yes, I am sure it is wrong but I don't know why or how to correct it.




groggory said:


> The injection time spike is weird as is the bump in fuel correction. Timing is odd too


The injection time spike is weird because the histogram correct it this way so I reduced the value of the cells that make is spike om Injection correction and I select some of the cell around it and I used "Smooth data" so to have a smooth Curve, in addition I had the EGT threshold for full Lambda 470 degree I raise it to 550 and I adjust the power enrichment to have max 0.836 @ full boost and I lowered the injector constant to .053 since I am seeing -25% of trim on block 1 after a cruise.

One more thing I am not seeing more than 20~21psi on my boost gauge, and the VE maximum is set to 22 PSI but on the logs it is showing 25psi, is there any reason?

I hope you have any suggestion that could help me. 




Chris164935 said:


> Did the motor situation ever get resolved or is it still smoking and knocking?


The knock is gone on idle and I barely have .75~1.5 correction on 5k+ RPM under full boost and it is sometimes not always, lucky I the knock was from BAD octane booster I used full of Nitrous that lower the octane, once the fuel tank was empty and I full it with new fuel 98 Octane all it well again.

I am still having some smoke only when I am driving down a hill without using the pedal for a while then accelerating. My mechanic said he will repair the engine if it turned to be his fault but he is suspicious about something because the smoke is blueish so he asked for another 800 miles.


advises for the tuning are well appreciated..:beer:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

**Power Enrichment** {LAMFA}
X Axis = Driver Requested Torque Y Axis = RPM Cell Values = Target Air/Fuel Ratio
Description: Target lambda map based on % of driver torque request derived from the Accelerator Pedal Map. Since this target lambda is based on driver requested torque (not actual torque) the result is preemptive fueling benefical for allowing fuel to ramp up ahead of a quick or large transition of load.

Active Prerequistes: Calculated torque is reached / Time Delay for Enrichment has expired / Full Load Lambda map inactive
Related Map: Accelerator Pedal Map

Use power enrichment, make sure the timing is set low, and make sure the temp is set 600-800 for full load lambda. Set the Power enrichment stoich until right before boost, drop it a little rich right before and at boost ONSET, then in boost bring it so it's around 12.5:1. 

Don't use Full Load Lambda at low (or no) temperature at all. It's making an educated guess at this temp since it doesn't actually have an EGT probe (like the TT225) also, this is a method that lazy tuners will use to make it easier to set the AFR. It doesn't make it easy, it just makes the corrections stop. For example you could look at your Req lambda vs Actual lambda and they will be way off, though there will be no correction. In my opinion it makes it look as if the ECU is fighting itself. 

Another thing I know I've told you. DO NOT touch the Main fuel Trim. Set it to 1.0001 across the board. When you log it run the histogram on this but don't apply it, and write down the highest value and where it is on the map (i.e. 3000 rpm/50 Load/-25% Correction. Then leave it at 1.0001. After adjusting the IC map the Main Fuel will come closer to perfect. Once the corrections on the Main Fuel get in the +/-10% range and no higher then start correction on that map. 

As for the timing, leave that map alone. Just run the histogram on it and see if there's pull. Let the histogram do it's job. About the timing, this map won't stay the same. After you've made corrections to the fuel you should be able to bring the timing back up a little. If it's too rich it will knock, if it's too lean it will knock. Can't really tel you which is worse, they both suck.


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

Forcing the ecu into the full load lambda map isn't the lazy way of tuning your afr! It's the easiest and best way to maximize performance and tweak your afr. As long as your Maf calculations are close this is a great way of tuning. I'm surprised you would even recommend 12.5-1 on max boost. That's lean even for a small turbo and your asking for extremely high EGT's @ 11.3-11.5 your only losing about 10hp and your motor is operating very safe. All you need is a little knock and boom your 12.5 afr cost you a motor. Now I'm not on here to be a dïck I'm just doing my best to help and not watch a fellow member lose a motor. 

98% of stand Alones have just one map for afr and audi/Bosch decided to make so many things difficult when tuning by having so many maps which tapp should have just made not available as they will never be modified. 

Carry on


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Forcing the ecu into the full load lambda map isn't the lazy way of tuning your afr! It's the easiest and best way to maximize performance and tweak your afr. As long as your Maf calculations are close this is a great way of tuning. I'm surprised you would even recommend 12.5-1 on max boost. That's lean even for a small turbo and your asking for extremely high EGT's @ 11.3-11.5 your only losing about 10hp and your motor is operating very safe. All you need is a little knock and boom your 12.5 afr cost you a motor. Now I'm not on here to be a dïck I'm just doing my best to help and not watch a fellow member lose a motor.
> 
> 98% of stand Alones have just one map for afr and audi/Bosch decided to make so many things difficult when tuning by having so many maps which tapp should have just made not available as they will never be modified.
> 
> Carry on


I'll leave it alone... never mind. :wave:

Description of that MAP

Open loop AFR

When requested lambda is <1 (richer than stoichiometric), the fueling system will go "open loop". This means that the ECU will no longer use the narrow band O2 sensors to regulate fueling in closed loop (feedback). It will use ONLY the MAF signal to guess how much fuel should be added to the mix based on how much airmass is being detected in the intake.
There are three ways to adjust WOT (open loop) requested AFR
LAMFAW: enrichment based on pedal position
LAMFAWKR: enrichment based on knock recognition
LAMBTS: enrichment triggered by calculated EGTS passing a threshold
Final requested AFR will follow the richest set point of the three components.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I agree with WikkiDTT, 12.5:1 AFR is too lean for pump gas and is not a good advice. Even on 116 race fuel or E85 it is advisable (on most setup) to cap it at 12:1 to retain a good safety net. Theoretically, 12:1 is is the best ratio for rich torque, and that's what the ultimate limit should be when tuning a street car running pump gas. 

With that said, there are extremely-pushed and tuned cars, running on fuel with higher knock threshold, well monitored vitals and ailsafes, where someone can go for something like a 12:5 AFR under WOT (and even then there isn't much power gained over 12:1 for the risks involved). Just because something made marginally more power on the dyno, it doesn't mean it's should be done. Pump gas is too unreliable, and a street car will likely face situations that require to have a safety net. The car in question (and most of the general audience here) do not meet the criteria for going with such lean AFR, so please consider the possible implications of doing this on a street driven car running on unreliable pump gas. The safe window is 11.5-12.0:1, and I think everyone tuning a pump gas car should target a curve that at least tapers to the richer part of that range. Always remember "fat is safe, and lean is mean"!

Matt, I understand your newfound enthusiasm about tuning and that you're looking to help. However, you should be careful with what you tell people unless you're sure and fully understand the subject. IMO, advising to tune leaner than best rich TQ on a street car on pump gas is not wise for you and the person you're genuinely trying to help. Take my input for what it is, as there is nothing but love behind it (I still remember the early 90's when I got my feet wet in tuning turbo cars, and was as enthusiastic and mistake-prone as you are. Keep at it and you'll master it!). :beer:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I agree with WikkiDTT, 12.5:1 AFR is too lean for pump gas and is not a good advice. Even on 116 race fuel or E85 it is advisable (on most setup) to cap it at 12:1 to retain a good safety net. Theoretically, 12:1 is is the best ratio for rich torque, and that's what the ultimate limit should be when tuning a street car running pump gas.
> 
> With that said, there are extremely-pushed and tuned cars, running on fuel with higher knock threshold, well monitored vitals and ailsafes, where someone can go for something like a 12:5 AFR under WOT (and even then there isn't much power gained over 12:1 for the risks involved). Just because something made marginally more power on the dyno, it doesn't mean it's should be done. Pump gas is too unreliable, and a street car will likely face situations that require to have a safety net. The car in question (and most of the general audience here) do not meet the criteria for going with such lean AFR, so please consider the possible implications of doing this on a street driven car running on unreliable pump gas. The safe window is 11.5-12.0:1, and I think everyone tuning a pump gas car should target a curve that at least tapers to the richer part of that range. Always remember "fat is safe, and lean is mean"!
> 
> Matt, I understand your newfound enthusiasm about tuning and that you're looking to help. However, you should be careful with what you tell people unless you're sure and fully understand the subject. IMO, advising to tune leaner than best rich TQ on a street car on pump gas is not wise for you and the person you're genuinely trying to help. Take my input for what it is, as there is nothing but love behind it (I still remember the early 90's when I got my feet wet in tuning turbo cars, and was as enthusiastic and mistake-prone as you are. Keep at it and you'll master it!). :beer:


I will say everyone including myself running 12.1 - 12.5 are running WMI. I did state that proper safety measures need to be in place, I didn't go into detail. I don't think Fouad should be running this, as I keep forgetting his fuel and engine predicament. Everyone here tunes on the lean side... it's the people teaching me that are doing the same, but we are running VPfuels, E85, WMI, etc. So yes I may be pushing it a bit to advise that lean. It's just what I personally run, as well as everyone I run with.

Max on a side note,
I've accomplished a tune (not Maestro) for the 1.8T that NO tuner has been able to accomplish. I'm not going into detail, but I'll say "IF" I wanted to go public with it I'd have a HUGE influx of customers. There's literally Nobody that has been able to do what I've done for a certain platform. Reliably and Repeatable. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just saying I ask questions people find dumb, it's what I don't ask about that really matters. My next project and last with tuning these cars will be something open sourced for everyone when it's done and it will be posted on the Pandit Site. I'm sick of the BS, I'm frankly sick of 90% of this community. Only reason I'm here is because a a few friends, and general boredom.


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Well People, as most of you know, I am knew to this Eurodyne thing!!! and Frankly, now I regret I got it!!! I had to go with Unitronic, maybe it is ~10whp lower but at least I had the piece of mind!!!  I am getting confused here more than getting help!!! 

Since I am stuck here, I will keep trying to achieve my goal... So who wanna help me, I really appreciate it!!! But you have to do step by step with me, sometimes you explain it fast so I don't understand what to do!!!




DMVDUB said:


> Use power enrichment, make sure the timing is set low, and make sure the temp is set 600-800 for full load lambda. Set the Power enrichment stoich until right before boost, drop it a little rich right before and at boost ONSET, then in boost bring it so it's around 12.5:1.


I think the power enrichment map I did is good, check it here below:










the temp threshold is set to 470 as per the base file, is that good?

You asked me to make sure the timing is set low, how is that and where I have to check it? and how you set the timing low?

here is the pump gaz timing map













DMVDUB said:


> Another thing I know I've told you. DO NOT touch the Main fuel Trim. Set it to 1.0001 across the board. When you log it run the histogram on this but don't apply it, and write down the highest value and where it is on the map (i.e. 3000 rpm/50 Load/-25% Correction. Then leave it at 1.0001. After adjusting the IC map the Main Fuel will come closer to perfect. Once the corrections on the Main Fuel get in the +/-10% range and no higher then start correction on that map.


I am not messing with the Main fuel trim, what I understood from the above is to log it run the histogram on this but I don't apply it, and I write down the highest value and where it is on the map as per the i.e. you gave me above, then leave it at 1.0001. OK, but what should I do with the Numbers I wrote down?? and I write down only one number and it is the highest one?? should I apply this # on IC or what?? I didn't get it why should I write down this number(s)??




DMVDUB said:


> As for the timing, leave that map alone. Just run the histogram on it and see if there's pull. Let the histogram do it's job. About the timing, this map won't stay the same. After you've made corrections to the fuel you should be able to bring the timing back up a little. If it's too rich it will knock, if it's too lean it will knock. Can't really tell you which is worse, they both suck.


I am doing that, I am just running the Histo on that, but I barely see some correction and it is btw .75~3 max. Is that normal??

How I bring the timing up or down? please elaborate more..


:beer:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

I have the F21T Tapp base file with EGT threshold 470, the injector constant .054, and the below maps:

Power enrichment









Pump Gas timing map









Injection Correction










with the above I am getting the below graph result, on 3rd gear WOT till redline.. with 20C temp.

Boost, I am seeing only 21psi on my gauge










Injection timing










MAF










Lambda










Engine Load & Engine Load Spec. (can you explain this, I don't know what it is?)










Timing advance










O2 correction










Boost duty and Intake temp











please tell me what do you think, I know that the injection timing is not good, but how should I fix it?

and the timing advance look bad too, can someone tell me what numbers should I expect for best timing advance?

thank you for your support. :beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

On a side note, post up your excel sheet. I'll edit it to use xy plots with smoothed lines i stead of line charts


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

That mountain range of a map is the exact reason I dont use it.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Forcing the ecu into the full load lambda map isn't the lazy way of tuning your afr! It's the easiest and best way to maximize performance and tweak your afr. As long as your Maf calculations are close this is a great way of tuning. I'm surprised you would even recommend 12.5-1 on max boost. That's lean even for a small turbo and your asking for extremely high EGT's @ 11.3-11.5 your only losing about 10hp and your motor is operating very safe. All you need is a little knock and boom your 12.5 afr cost you a motor. Now I'm not on here to be a dïck I'm just doing my best to help and not watch a fellow member lose a motor.
> 
> 98% of stand Alones have just one map for afr and audi/Bosch decided to make so many things difficult when tuning by having so many maps which tapp should have just made not available as they will never be modified.
> 
> Carry on


Your not going to hurt the motor at 12.5:1. Factory tune runs stoich till somewhere close to 4500rpm.

Knock control on these cars is so sensitive, you could fart on the fender and be able to log it.

The timing correction you see in logs is just that, correction. It isnt knock. Ecu thinks there is potential for it, so it pulls timing. The engine will start to rattle around -11......been there lol. Tuning mistake.

This isnt megasquirt. Its an ecu with an 1800 page manual.


DMVDUB said:


> I'll leave it alone... never mind. :wave:
> 
> Description of that MAP
> 
> ...


Matt,

These cars are closed loop all the time, otherwise you wouldnt see corrections at WOT, or at least anything that is ME 7.5



I really wish we had access to LAMFAKR.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dave926 said:


> Your not going to hurt the motor at 12.5:1. Factory tune runs stoich till somewhere close to 4500rpm.


Running that lean throughout the AFR curve on pump gas doesn't help much either (the power increase, when all else remains equal, is so minimal over 12.0:1 that it's not worth it. Yes, the stock tune can run at stoichometric value in part of the full-load curve, but that's because that lambda curve is used in conjunction with a very watered-down state of tune otherwise (very low boost, pathetic timing advance etc). Their objective with lambda this lean is good gas mileage and low emission. In our cases, tuning for power while keeping some safety, there is much more power and safety to be gained by running richer and freeing some room for some boost and more aggressive timing advance. There are several ways to make power when tuning, and in order of importance:

1) Boost
2) Timing
3) Leaning the AFR

Whenever you find yourself compromising #1 for #2 or 3 - or #2 for #3, your not getting the most out of your tuning approach and may be comprising safety. :beer:


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Running it rich, or richer than 12.5:1, only negates the increased advance by a slower flame speed.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Dave926 said:


> Running it rich, or richer than 12.5:1, only negates the increased advance by a slower flame speed.


Its more complex than that. There's other factors that also affect what the optimum AFR should be.


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

Couple of things.. 

1) check the fpr to me it looks like its a little late in the game hence the weird injection readings and late lean spike after on set of boost.. Normally you except that to be around the point peak boost is coming in, this can be smoothed out with the maf correction maps to pre empt the boost coming on,

2) VVT yes? I think the switch between kfzw/kfzw2 might need looking at. The ignition timing value on the 2 maps needs to be roughly the same between the 2 maps for the same rpmvload points on both maps otherwise it can take a big jump on switch over..

3) how is the boost tuned on this? Via kfldrl? Or ldrxn? The boost requested is capped at the 22.5psi max so I'm assuming its not actually requesting 22.5psi but much higher because ldrxn has been maxed at 205 and hence the high requested load v actual.

Assuming it has, which I think it is, and please correct me if wrong kfldrl is controlling the boost then the 21psi you are seeing is the only accurate measure you have . You can not rely on the data then as you are basically tricking the Ecu into controlling the turbo. Don't get me wrong it's an effective way of doing it and one we/I use on the uprated actuators here but means you need to manually tune the boost for desire curve


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

Oh and what injectors you running? I've not read the whole thing.. Deka 630cc by any chance?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

OP -- thanks for emailing your logs. I'll look them over and make recommendations to you directly.

dh


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> OP -- thanks for emailing your logs. I'll look them over and make recommendations to you directly.
> 
> dh


Keep it public. Maybe someone else can learn from this


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

I wouldn't take advice from anyone on here (except for a key one or two people).

I suggest you grab some books or head over to other forums where you can get sound tuning advice from real tuners, not self proclaimed experts.

Watch out for people telling you should run a 10.5 AFR :laugh:


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Oh and what injectors you running? I've not read the whole thing.. Deka 630cc by any chance?


No he's running G2 500cc :banghead: (thanks Doug for that one) :screwy: 550's would've been much better in my opinion. 

No VVT

He's running 500's at 4bar

He's using the tune that comes from Eurodyne (Garbage)

Doug, look over his logs. I'll make a bet $1,000 I can have him making more power than you can. Same boost. 

If someone said 10afr they need to go away, that's retarded. 

People say what you want, high 11's if you want to be safe but 12 will be the best you'll get on all fronts. We have so many factors for intervention running 12 isn't a big deal. :wave:


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

DMVDUB said:


> No he's running G2 500cc :banghead: (thanks Doug for that one) :screwy: 550's would've been much better in my opinion.
> 
> No VVT
> 
> ...


The fact it's running 21psi and only 170 grams on the maf tends to suggest the rest of the engine hardware isn't up to the job. Surely the ft21 flows more than 170gr ?


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Running that lean throughout the AFR curve on pump gas doesn't help much either (the power increase, when all else remains equal, is so minimal over 12.0:1 that it's not worth it. Yes, the stock tune can run at stoichometric value in part of the full-load curve, but that's because that lambda curve is used in conjunction with a very watered-down state of tune otherwise (very low boost, pathetic timing advance etc). Their objective with lambda this lean is good gas mileage and low emission. In our cases, tuning for power while keeping some safety, there is much more power and safety to be gained by running richer and freeing some room for some boost and more aggressive timing advance. There are several ways to make power when tuning, and in order of importance:
> 
> 1) Boost
> 2) Timing
> ...


Mad Max lets talk some corn, does your PM work?


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dave926 said:


> Running it rich, or richer than 12.5:1, only negates the increased advance by a slower flame speed.


A optimal flame speed is great, but not always the best thing to chase when/if it implies compromising:

1) the amount of boost you can run
2) the amount timing advance you can dial

Theoretically, and in purely scientific standpoint, the fastest flame speed for power occurs at 12.5:1. But, you also need to factor in that in this particular case, it's not a naturally aspirated motor and the fuel used have octane limitations. The extra cylinder pressure (before the detonation limit is reached) that is created by going after ideal theoretical flame speed, could have been used for higher boost, or to a lesser degree some timing. Tuning when you're fuel-limited, like the car that started the discussion, always going to require some compromising, and again in order of importance comes boost - timing - and finally AFR (in practice there is more to gain by running a bit fatter than ideal in order to cool down the cyl temps which opens the door for a more potent boost or timing ceiling). Tuning is a balancing act that's part science part black art. 

I love a good technical discussion and would love to get into more details with you in maybe another thread (posting PDF extracts of reasearch done on the subject that can further explain what I'm saying etc.). I don't feel comfortable cluttering this thread more with a sidetracked subject, especially when it doesn't directly help the car struggling with his tune. 



theswoleguy said:


> Mad Max lets talk some corn, does your PM work?


Josh, I'm sending you a PM with my cell number so you can text me. My PM box is poorly managed because I tend to get a lot of questions that require elaborate responses, if I were to sit and read/answer everything, I would have no time left to post. 

PS: I have some info for you on that heavy duty solid solution for the dogbone problem


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## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> PS: I have some info for you on that heavy duty solid solution for the dogbone problem


Do share with me also! :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I wouldn't take advice from anyone on here (except for a key one or two people).
> 
> I suggest you grab some books or head over to other forums where you can get sound tuning advice from real tuners, not self proclaimed experts.
> 
> Watch out for people telling you should run a 10.5 AFR :laugh:



And certainly he should watch out for advice from incompetent "professionals" like Gonzo Tuning. I'd say that's fairly self-evident at this point.



DMVDUB said:


> No he's running G2 500cc :banghead: (thanks Doug for that one) :screwy: 550's would've been much better in my opinion.
> 
> Doug, look over his logs. I'll make a bet $1,000 I can have him making more power than you can. Same boost.



If posts like this one somehow satisfy your ego, then I'm sure you'll continue to beat that tired, tired drum. But I have no desire to get involved with a juvenile "tuning dance-off". FrankenTurbo is a hardware company, not a tuning company. For that we have the best tuners in the business supporting our products.



Beachbuggy said:


> The fact it's running 21psi and only 170 grams on the maf tends to suggest the rest of the engine hardware isn't up to the job. Surely the ft21 flows more than 170gr ?


The Eurodyne F21T file has a MAF scaling map which under-reports actual mass airflow readings. It was written for a stock Mk4 sensor in the larger TT225 3" housing we provide with the F21T kit. When Eurodyne posted this dyno sheet…












…data logs were showing airflows in the upper 170s. This scaling is seen in Unitronic's Stage 2+ FrankenTurbo file as well. It, too, combines the stock sensor with a larger 3" housing.

OP - I have suggestions for modifying your file. I'll send them to you directly.

dh


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> And certainly he should watch out for advice from incompetent "professionals" like Gonzo Tuning. I'd say that's fairly self-evident at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems a bit odd to under scale and then run a 3" maf housing. I understand its 3rd party so not yoursbut just sounds screwy.

Especially when looking at the maps on the previous page. The timing maps are running over / normal scaled axis on the kfzw map and has a load of 218 listed , something with your under scaled maf it'll never see.. just seems a waste of the last 4 lines 

am I wrong? Or missed something because I see an under scaled maf with over scaled maps... please tell me im wrong ..


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

To the OP

areyou able to post up maps for kfmirl kfmiop kfzw and kfzw2 ldrxn and kfldrl


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> If posts like this one somehow satisfy your ego, then I'm sure you'll continue to beat that tired, tired drum. But I have no desire to get involved with a juvenile "tuning dance-off". FrankenTurbo is a hardware company, not a tuning company. For that we have the best tuners in the business supporting our products.
> 
> 
> 
> dh



No dear, my EGO is just fine. 

If you're a hardware company then you should stop giving your customers HORRIBLE tuning advice. I've been FIXING the problems people are having with your turbo and the associated tune, so you should just maybe stop running your mouth to me. I'm not beyond driving to whereversville NY you're in and smacking the fücking taste out of your mouth. You should be thankful I've taken an interest in your hardware lately, I know your customers do.

Whoa, Just caught that line... Best tuners in the Business Supporting you? Then why is my Homemade file better than ANY on the market? 

If they were so good they could use the N75 reliably with or without Maestro... Oh yeah, I did that too. 

So does that make me better than those "best tuners in the business"? 

Hopefully some of your customers will chime in to compare my files to the ones you think are so great. eace:


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


x2


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

*Whoa, Just caught that line... Best tuners in the Business Supporting you?* Then why is my Homemade file better than ANY on the market? 

If they were so good they could use the N75 reliably with or without Maestro... Oh yeah, I did that too. 

So does that make me better than those "best tuners in the business"? 

Hopefully some of your customers will chime in to compare my files to the ones you think are so great. eace:


----------



## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

Let's not get off topic here and let's get back to helping the OP. 

If you want to start a verbal assault @thehardwaresales guys and @thetuner do it in another FOURM. It's not needed here.


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Let's not get off topic here and let's get back to helping the OP.
> 
> If you want to start a verbal assault @thehardwaresales guys and @thetuner do it in another FOURM. It's not needed here.


Doug needs to keep his stories in check. He's giving bad tuning advice and some of his great tuning companies are giving bad advice as well. It's VERY obvious that there's never truly been a tune specifically, 100% designed for the hardware. I'm no tuning expert but I can make a solid tune for the hardware, why can't Unitronic or one of these other big name companies? Because the R&D isn't worth it for them. They are taking a stage 2 file, increasing fuel for a specific injector size and setting boost high enough that a MBC doesn't trip under or over boost causing limp. 

If Doug would realize I'm not badmouthing him maybe I wouldn't go on the defensive. 

1-I say the Software available for his turbos is not good

2-He attacks me

3-I attack back

*My statement starting the whole thing is truth. If he would accept the truth this wouldn't happen. 

I will continue to help his customers, but I will NEVER give him access to my files until he loses the büllshït attitude (I will also know if he has one of his customers try and take my file). He started the "beef" between us, and technically an outside party would say I'm doing HIM a favor by making his turbos respond so well using stock like throttle, smooth boost, and outstanding drivability. In turn making HIS customers HAPPY :screwy:


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> Doug needs to keep his stories in check. He's giving bad tuning advice and some of his great tuning companies are giving bad advice as well. It's VERY obvious that there's never truly been a tune specifically, 100% designed for the hardware. I'm no tuning expert but I can make a solid tune for the hardware, why can't Unitronic or one of these other big name companies? Because the R&D isn't worth it for them. They are taking a stage 2 file, increasing fuel for a specific injector size and setting boost high enough that a MBC doesn't trip under or over boost causing limp.
> 
> If Doug would realize I'm not badmouthing him maybe I wouldn't go on the defensive.
> 
> ...


Seriously man, keep it out of this thread.

Quote him and take it to the thread you started for this exact kind of bull****.

This would have been a perfect example of Doug randomly starting **** with GT, yet GT getting blamed, but you polluted the rest of the page with your posts flipping out on Doug.

I have nothing against you man, but you really need to stop with the defensive explosions in other peoples threads, or in response to things not directed at you.


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Seriously man, keep it out of this thread.
> 
> Quote him and take it to the thread you started for this exact kind of bull****.
> 
> ...


First and foremost, I have NOTHING TO DO WITH GT!

I've got a legitimate reason to be pissed at him. He's giving out bad advice and people need to know not to listen to him. Yes, I do go off on him. Every time I fix something with one of his cutovers cars he tells them some other crap and we have to start all over. 

I'm not going to say it in another thread because I want people to know to at least QUESTION what they hear from him when it comes to tuning. 

I may decide to give out my F23 and F21 files for Maestro and .BIN files (Checksum cleared and running well) in the near future so the masses can have a free tune. This sounds pretty fair doesn't it? Probably when I leave this community forever.


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

Just getting back on track.

Any reason why the axis / maps are the way they are?


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Just getting back on track.
> 
> Any reason why the axis / maps are the way they are?


He's in Lebanon and his Excel program is set up for Arabic. Arabic goes right to left not left to right like English

I can give some graphs if you give me the specific data you want to see. I've been helping him this whole time and have lots of data. He's just now switched over to making his own file and understanding how everything works, and he's doing a very good job at it! :beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> To the OP
> 
> areyou able to post up maps for kfmirl kfmiop kfzw and kfzw2 ldrxn and kfldrl


Hi man, I don't know what do you mean by *"kfmirl kfmiop kfzw and kfzw2 ldrxn and kfldrl"*

can you explain it more please??




Beachbuggy said:


> Just getting back on track.
> 
> Any reason why the axis / maps are the way they are?


which maps you are referring to?

I have a Non VVT car, and 500cc G2 injector (I ordered them and Doug just sent them to me, because I thought I will go to local custom tuning and I wish I did), I have a brand new 4 bar FPR Bosch installed 3 weeks ago.

so what do you suggest?


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok just to inform you all that I lost trust in this Forum, no one what to help us especially YOU expert people... what you want to do is to spit each other and to look like you know everything... Instead of helping us you are trying to show the other that he is wrong and that you know everything...

well guess what I got 2 advises on the same day and each one was different from the other and I will NOT tell you what it is, but when I applied them both the car felt much more better and I got the lambda good... 

I will keep trying to help myself, but I won't lie to you I am also looking for someone to buy my ECU and this fucn maestro and I will change to can tune and piece of mind for sure!!!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Hi man, I don't know what do you mean by *"kfmirl kfmiop kfzw and kfzw2 ldrxn and kfldrl"*
> 
> can you explain it more please??
> 
> ...



http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.0

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=308.0title=

KFLDRL (Boost linearization )


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I wouldn't take advice from anyone on here (except for a key one or two people).
> 
> I suggest you grab some books or head over to other forums where you can get sound tuning advice from real tuners, not self proclaimed experts.
> 
> Watch out for people telling you should run a 10.5 AFR :laugh:


One more thing to you Sir, if you have something useful to say for me you are the most welcome and I appreciate your support, otherwise keep your BS for yourself!!! 

At least act like Matt, he is offering a lot of support to me disregarding his conflict with Doug...


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> One more thing to you Sir, if you have something useful to say for me you are the most welcome and I appreciate your support, otherwise keep your BS for yourself!!!
> 
> At least act like Matt, he is offering a lot of support to me disregarding his conflict with Doug...


Sorry, can't help the conflict... you know me, I'm a nice guy but I've got very little patience. 

Read those links I posted. eace:


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> He's in Lebanon and his Excel program is set up for Arabic. Arabic goes right to left not left to right like English
> 
> I can give some graphs if you give me the specific data you want to see. I've been helping him this whole time and have lots of data. He's just now switched over to making his own file and understanding how everything works, and he's doing a very good job at it! :beer:


Matt...  you won't believe what I did!!!  I went to the Microsoft Office file and messed up by erasing some file then I called the IT and told him that this file andoffice is not good so he change it to a new one like yours...  LOL man, if they know I am done... lol


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> Sorry, can't help the conflict... you know me, I'm a nice guy but I've got very little patience.
> 
> Read those links I posted. eace:


You are ok buddy :thumbup:!!! 

I miss our live conversation


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Matt...  you won't believe what I did!!!  I went to the Microsoft Office file and messed up by erasing some file then I called the IT and told him that this file andoffice is not good so he change it to a new one like yours...  LOL man, if they know I am done... lol


:laugh: Sneaky Sneaky


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Hi man, I don't know what do you mean by *"kfmirl kfmiop kfzw and kfzw2 ldrxn and kfldrl"*
> 
> can you explain it more please??
> 
> ...



Hi sorry I haven't used maestro before so not sure if those maps are called something.

Kfmirl and kfmiop are the load torque maps.. 
Kfzw/2 are the timing maps
Ldrxn is the wot load map
Kfldrl is the n75 duty cycle map

With out going into to much detail basically these are the main "boost" and timing maps..

The load the Ecu calculates to give either the output or axis of these maps are directly from information received from the MAF thus if you start messing with the maf scaling you mess with the a large number of crucial maps.

For instance your timing maps are scaled on the axis upto 218. However because of you under scaled maf it only sees a max load of 170.. So the cells from 170-218 are useless and never used..

Also unless the kfmiop has been scaled on the load axis correctly as well then the chances are that torque request figures are completely out as well. Now it may be the case this has been scaled correctly and hence why I asked to see the maps.. But for kfmiop to be correct kfmirl has to be rescaled as well.. 

What I don't understand is that the maf has apparently been under scaled yet a 3" maf fitted?! Why not just rescale Mlhfm properly for the 3" maf then all the maf reading what be correct anyway.. Then you can just rescale the appropriate axis to accommodate this... It's not hard...


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Hi sorry I haven't used maestro before so not sure if those maps are called something.
> 
> Kfmirl and kfmiop are the load torque maps..
> Kfzw/2 are the timing maps
> ...


Once again, like setting the EGT low it's a lazy mans way of doing the fuel. Tricking the ECU... Seems all tuners like to do it. :banghead:


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

I've never used maestro so can't comment on it but I'm assuming it has a facility to automatically make changes to the maps based on the logs? Hence the -1.5 degree timing value in the middle of the map?


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I wouldn't take advice from anyone on here (except for a key one or two people).
> 
> I suggest you grab some books or head over to other forums where you can get sound tuning advice from real tuners, not self proclaimed experts.
> 
> Watch out for people telling you should run a 10.5 AFR :laugh:


So Gonzo Suggested you do some research instead of just listening to what you are told...



[email protected] said:


> And certainly he should watch out for advice from incompetent "professionals" like Gonzo Tuning. I'd say that's fairly self-evident at this point.


Doug Responds, and attacks Gonzo. I mean, Doug's first post in the thread was little more than a shot at Gonzo....



LEBGTIMK4 said:


> One more thing to you Sir, if you have something useful to say for me you are the most welcome and I appreciate your support, otherwise keep your BS for yourself!!!
> 
> At least act like Matt, he is offering a lot of support to me disregarding his conflict with Doug...



So now I'm confused as to why you are telling Gonzo to "keep his BS to himself" when he isn't the person spouting bull****?



DMVDUB, go read my last post in your own thread.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> So Gonzo Suggested you do some research instead of just listening to what you are told...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn, every one of your posts is a play-by-play of the sh!t talking.. Whats the point of your posts? This thread doesnt need a narrator.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

warranty225cpe said:


> Damn, every one of your posts is a play-by-play of the sh!t talking.. Whats the point of your posts? This thread doesnt need a narrator.


Because I'm tired of seeing the FT customers posting everywhere that GT customers are starting **** everywhere when its blatantly obvious that its the reverse.

But I'm not going to elaborate any further in this thread.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> So Gonzo Suggested you do some research instead of just listening to what you are told...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please check post 248 and see what Doug was saying... Then Gonzalo went in advising to do some research instead of helping knowing he is a tuner, and he was addressing to Doug in a non-direct way because Doug advise of low AFR, here where Doug came in and talked to Gonzo..

I said it from the first day, THIS AIN'T MY WAR... I accept help from Gonzo, Doug, Matt, You, Greg, Beachbuggy, .... even from Hilter if he get back to life, I don't care..

I want to solve my tuning...:beer:


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Relax people. Jeesh.



LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Please check post 248 and see what Doug was saying... Then Gonzalo went in advising to do some research instead of helping knowing he is a tuner, and he was addressing to Doug in a non-direct way because Doug advise of low AFR, here where Doug came in and talked to Gonzo..
> :beer:


I gave you sound advice. The best you can do is learn the tuning principles, so when someone tries to give you bad advice, you instantly know that its not good advice. I will only interject when I'm sure of something. 

Something is definitely not right with your setup, but its hard to diagnose your car over the internet.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Merry christmas.

Lets only have tech talk here for dec 24 and 25.


Sound reasonable?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Relax people. Jeesh.
> 
> 
> I gave you sound advice. The best you can do is learn the tuning principles, so when someone tries to give you bad advice, you instantly know that its not good advice. I will only interject when I'm sure of something.
> ...


Gonzalo, merry christmas buddy... i have nothing against you..

I am just furious because i want help and i don't want to be part of ur problem with Doug, i have nothing against you and i respect the result ur product did...

May the born of the Lord Jesus Christ bring all the best for you guys...

Cheers,


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

:beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Any suggestions why am not able to log block 32 on meastro??

Trims remaing empty..


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

ESKONF not properly set up?

Did your car come with EVAP, SAI and cats from factory and is all of that plugged in or resistored?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> ESKONF not properly set up?
> 
> Did your car come with EVAP, SAI and cats from factory and is all of that plugged in or resistored?


 well..

My car did came with Evap and SAI nd i deleted the SAI and N249 and N112 but didn't messed up with the EVAP system.

I also have an O2 Spacer from Draft42.

So could the resistor be damaged, but i don't have any codes.

Any suugestions?? :beer:


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

You won't have any codes unless you enable the open circuit codes on Maestro.

The resistors not working properly will cause your fuel trims to not work.


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> well..
> 
> My car did came with Evap and SAI nd i deleted the SAI and N249 and N112 but didn't messed up with the EVAP system.
> 
> ...


You running a rear O2 is it deleted properly.

Also adaption is temperature triggered.. 

I know your not running vvt, is that resistored ok?


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> You running a rear O2 is it deleted properly.
> 
> Also adaption is temperature triggered..
> 
> I know your not running vvt, is that resistored ok?


well, I did not deleted the rear O2, i just got a spacer for it from Draft 42.

I got a kit for the wideband and it got a resistor in it, so i have never check it and don't know how to do so. i just had to plug it and that's all.

What did you mean by *"adaption is temperature triggered"*??

any suggestion??


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> You won't have any codes unless you enable the open circuit codes on Maestro.* resistor
> 
> The resistors not working properly will cause your fuel trims to not work.*


THIS is what you need to address


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> well, I did not deleted the rear O2, i just got a spacer for it from Draft 42.
> 
> I got a kit for the wideband and it got a resistor in it, so i have never check it and don't know how to do so. i just had to plug it and that's all.
> 
> ...


Ahh ok then rear O2 not to worry about, if it's spaced then fine. Someone people removed it all together and code it out. Others just code it out but leave plugged in..

The adaptation only comes in to play when a temp set point is reached, I was just checking you hadn't raised this by a mistake but the fact your asking tends to suggest it'll still be stock, but worth logging the coolant temp to ensure it's getting up to temp ok..


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Ahh ok then rear O2 not to worry about, if it's spaced then fine. Someone people removed it all together and code it out. Others just code it out but leave plugged in..
> 
> The adaptation only comes in to play when a temp set point is reached, I was just checking you hadn't raised this by a mistake but the fact your asking tends to suggest it'll still be stock, but worth logging the coolant temp to ensure it's getting up to temp ok..


It's the resistor issue, I'm willing to bet on it. I'm pretty sure as long as I've been helping him I haven't gotten to see a single block 032.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> You won't have any codes unless you enable the open circuit codes on Maestro. resistor
> 
> The resistors not working properly will cause your fuel trims to not work.


Which resistor you are refering to? the SAI one or the N249 one?? I will change them both, they were something like 300OHM10w?? correct me if i am wrong..




Beachbuggy said:


> Ahh ok then rear O2 not to worry about, if it's spaced then fine. Someone people removed it all together and code it out. Others just code it out but leave plugged in..
> 
> The adaptation only comes in to play when a temp set point is reached, I was just checking you hadn't raised this by a mistake but the fact your asking tends to suggest it'll still be stock, but worth logging the coolant temp to ensure it's getting up to temp ok..


SO you are refering to EGT temp, yes Doug and Matt advised to raise it... Some people were blaming Matt for such advise but it turned to be right, since i raise it i got a little better performance.

I never drive the car before 3 minutes warming and i never do logs before the coolant reach 90C.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> It's the resistor issue, I'm willing to bet on it. I'm pretty sure as long as I've been helping him I haven't gotten to see a single block 032.


Matt, should i turn both *SAI fault detection * ON and *SAI configuration * ON??


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Which resistor you are refering to? the SAI one or the N249 one?? I will change them both, they were something like 300OHM10w?? correct me if i am wrong..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope I mean coolant.. Modelled egt temp has nothing to do with it.. Your talking about BTS and egt protection maps..


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> Nope I mean coolant.. Modelled egt temp has nothing to do with it.. Your talking about BTS and egt protection maps..


I meant EGT threshold one which i guess is egt protection map


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I meant EGT threshold one which i guess is egt protection map


Yes..


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Fouad, you're getting confused because you're trying to do it all at once. You're also getting information from the actual MAPs used for tuning, not the Maestro map names. You need to work at one thing at a time, this was one of the first things I told you about doing yourself. 

You need to learn and perfect one thing at a time, otherwise you'll be all over the place chasing your tail. 

You also need to know what correlates. A lot of things that you change also cause changes elsewhere, you just can't see the other changes. 

We've already talked about your situation and what to do about it.

There's a list of things to do before flashing a "base" file to really make it a proper base file. I'll send it to your email tomorrow. Also, having the Constant and the BVC correct is a big deal as you've learned. There's only BVC / I.C. for I think 4 or 6 types of injectors loaded into the program. We really need a full list (Hi Scott a USRT ) of injector information we can put in a thread specifically for tuning fuel. 

I'm thinking as for Maestro, we need to stop adding to the 200page Maestro thread and start just making subject specific threads i.e.  *Maestro* - Fueling, Injector Information List, Constant and BVC. This way we can give people like Fouad (trying to learn) a direct place to go for finding Fuel information (and other Maps). These threads would be *ZERO* conflict and heavily Moderated, as to preserve the integrity of factual information and no "tips" on tuning. There's too many differences in how everyone does their files, and it's too confusing for someone who's learning. Just look, Fouad wants to kill someone over this because he's getting people giving him all different ways to accomplish the same task and it's gotta be frustrating as hell. I know it is since we speak pretty much daily and the biggest problem is too much information, too many directions and not enough explanation. 


We are going to start fresh, and hopefully by Monday it'll be exactly where we want it. I'll get you sorted out buddy :beer:

I know you wanted to learn the program, but I also know you don't care about that anymore. So we'll just get it running and then we can do some more lessons over TeamViewer. You just need to fix your microphone so you can speak too instead of type.


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

It seems that unless you have a flawless setup maestro base file , it really is a nightmare!


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> Fouad, you're getting confused because you're trying to do it all at once. You're also getting information from the actual MAPs used for tuning, not the Maestro map names. You need to work at one thing at a time, this was one of the first things I told you about doing yourself.
> 
> You need to learn and perfect one thing at a time, otherwise you'll be all over the place chasing your tail.
> 
> ...



Indeed Buddy, i am doing a lot of research now and i am reading the links you sent me. As well, i bought new 330ohm 10w resistor to replace the one of the SAI and N249 this week end.

And i will get a new earphone with mic so as of Monday we can start doing it step by step...

I wanna show that fucn Maestro who is the real MAESTRO and BOSS!!!  :beer::beer::beer:


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

I feel need to ask again, and now having seen the map in question, why is the maf scaled the way it is? 
It has been stated it was under scaled then the sensor put in a larger maf housing! If this is the actual case then it's no wondered the load and maf reading are screwed. Then add In The Errors That Will Occur With All The Load Based Maps And You Will Never Get This Tune Sorted. 


For reference if you go from one maf housing to another of larger diameter then you need to scale UP the maf map . Typically the 3" maf at 5 volts should be around 1250g/hr not the 1000 this is kicking out which is how an under scaled maf would read if it was on a stock maf..


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok Guys,

I've been working a lot on my own file and i had some help from Dan and Matt, cheers :beer:

here below are the logs i did and i think it is the best result I did.

What I did is load the F21 base file, i put TT225 MAF and pull 5 degrees on timing(as requested by Dan)

Then I worked on a single map which is injection correction, i put the correct BVC, .056610 injector constant, I change the Power enrichement and Full lambda(as requested by Matt )

I put EGT threshold 950 ( as requested by Doug and Matt)

And here is the result:

Calc Turbo Flow









Intake Temp









Boost duty









Boost Actual and required









Lambda









Timing









First time i get 185g/s for MAF









Injection Correction









O2 Correction









Now what I did after these result is doing logs and just changing the Main fuel correction and i had a little bit of change as per Histogram, so i will log it and check the result, if they are also better i will start raising a bit of timing.

By the way i have 0 knock.

Tell me if it is ok? and what do you suggest to do to improve it...

Meanwhile in parallel i am working with Matt for a great file 

Cheers,:beer:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

glad to see the good news that things are starting to work out better for you :thumbup:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

You're getting the hang of it buddy :beer:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

i just wanna say the f21 was a fun turbo! But it didnt have the ooomf i was after! I have a turbo, manifold, tip, 415cc injectors, and a unitronic ft 2+ ecu i will sell to someone for $1525 shipped


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

A little update here. Between a bad MAF and what I'm assuming to be an insufficient ground for the ignition I think we've finally found the fueling issue (why it kept jumping all over the place after several revisions). Too bad it's causing hesitation at full boost, but I'll be glad to see the new part working and doing it's job. 

I've actually not seen many MAF's randomly drop to 0g/s (kg/h for Maestro). More commonly we just see low readings, but this one just feels it a good idea to fall off to nothing and make everything go nuts. 

From this experience, I suggest anyone using Maestro to MAKE SURE TO READ YOUR LOGS!!! Don't just trust the histogram. If we kept following the histogram we would be chasing out tails even more now that there's a mechanical failure. 

Also, he needs to make sure his plugs are gapped down ~.028. I think they come around .032 - .036 from NGK which is way too much.

Another note, he'll be installing WMI which I can't wait for since the IAT's from this setup are INSANE!!! 60C is a common temp coming from this thing at 22psi and it's seen as high as 80C with a FMIC... Something isn't right there. On my similar turbo with the same ambient temp I never see anything higher than 36C even on a hot day with WMI turned off. Typical temp with WMI is 20C - 28C and lower if I use Ice. 

Hopefully after the parts arrive he will have a solid update.


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

those o2 corrections look like almost every log I've seen maestro users most :laugh:. Looks like your on the right track. Why am I seeing loops in those logs? clutch could be on its way out. 

1.) That intake temp is pretty high may need to address that eventually
2.) Looks like initial peak boost probably needs some load correction.
3.) not sure what your running as far as boost but even at peak maf readings look a little low assuming your running 21 or more psi.


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

you guys mentioned the SAI and N249 resistors would affect his fueling. Was that issue ever resolved?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

The problem is that the car is not doing anything wrong on idle and even when I drive it and boost it till 10 ~ 12 PSI under part throttle all is good, but when I press full WOT and it goes above 12 psi till 22psi the car hesitate and misfire and the RPM stops moving up sometimes!!! I don't know if it has something to do with the Fueling system, but I have NEW intank walbro fuel pump 255lph, NEW GenesisII 500cc injectors, NEW fuel filter, and NEW 4bar FPR!!! what I meant with NEW is 2000miles.




DMVDUB said:


> A little update here. Between a bad MAF and what I'm assuming to be an insufficient ground for the ignition I think we've finally found the fueling issue (why it kept jumping all over the place after several revisions). Too bad it's causing hesitation at full boost, but I'll be glad to see the new part working and doing it's job.
> 
> I've actually not seen many MAF's randomly drop to 0g/s (kg/h for Maestro). More commonly we just see low readings, but this one just feels it a good idea to fall off to nothing and make everything go nuts.


Well Buddy, since you were driving yesterday and couldn't talk too much  here's the update. I flashed the car with Mafless file still have the same issue, I opened the hood to check the ignition ground and guess what Genious!!! It was loose a lot!!! so I cleaned and sanded its place to get a good contact with metal and tied it well BUT still have the same problem!!!

Now I think that since I painted this cover in thick black paint this might have isolated the valve covers in some places or weakened the ground, SO I got a 2 meter of wire thickness 8mm and some Wire cross connector the same used OEM and I will connect to the car chassis, plus I will check all the spark plugs connector and I will clean them.




DMVDUB said:


> Also, he needs to make sure his plugs are gapped down ~.028. I think they come around .032 - .036 from NGK which is way too much.


well I was checking the Sparks plug BRK7E I got and they were gapped to .8mm!!! So I gapped them to +.25mm and -.30mm so it is around .28mm and I will install them too, the distance of the spark plug gap now is to small, and I guess this will cause a small spark, what is its benefit?? I cannot understand... LOL
BUT you mentioned .028 you are referring to INCH?? Because .028Inch=.71mm which make more sense to me!!!




DMVDUB said:


> Another note, he'll be installing WMI which I can't wait for since the IAT's from this setup are INSANE!!! 60C is a common temp coming from this thing at 22psi and it's seen as high as 80C with a FMIC... Something isn't right there. On my similar turbo with the same ambient temp I never see anything higher than 36C even on a hot day with WMI turned off. Typical temp with WMI is 20C - 28C and lower if I use Ice.
> 
> Hopefully after the parts arrive he will have a solid update.


YEAHHH!!!! I CALLED Scott @ USRT all the way from Lebanon to tell him that I am combining the goods at Doug's place  and he was so helpful!!! Even if he didn't grant me a discount but Sccott is sooo helpful and the W/M kit is on its way!!! And I am willing to clean my intercooler when I remove its pipe to weld the aluminum bung for 175cc nozzle 




Budsdubbin said:


> those o2 corrections look like almost every log I've seen maestro users most :laugh:. Looks like your on the right track. Why am I seeing loops in those logs? clutch could be on its way out.


Nop, the clutch is good this is wheel slip since I need to change them and they are soo bad, I have them 2+ year on the car 



Budsdubbin said:


> not sure what your running as far as boost but even at peak maf readings look a little low assuming your running 21 or more psi.


Well the MAF reading above is from my file and not Matt file!!! With Matt file I saw 250g/s for MAF reading!!! 




jonpwn said:


> you guys mentioned the SAI and N249 resistors would affect his fueling. Was that issue ever resolved?


Well, I have the 330Ohm 9w resistor in my trunk and I have to change them soon, but even I turn their diagnostic ON, I have no fault codes!!!

I hate that you can't read fault codes after flashing your car!!!! This makes our life even more difficult!!!


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## Sim (Jun 27, 2002)

DMVDUB said:


> I've actually not seen many MAF's randomly drop to 0g/s (kg/h for Maestro). More commonly we just see low readings, but this one just feels it a good idea to fall off to nothing and make everything go nuts.


Me neither, but I did have a MAF last year which went 0 g/s during full throttle! It is measuring 0 g/s since then .


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Guys, i hate that sh!t...

It is being a week now with the same problem... i have misfire on high boost and only on high boost.. after 17+psi...

I have no CEL... and no code...
I did the mafless file still same problem, i checked the spark plugs they are good a bit greyish, i changed the 4 coil pack connectors since some were cracked still the same problem, fuel system all new... i changed 2 out of 4 coil pack randomly it got better but still at 20psi+ it misfire...

Please tell me what it could be??? OH HOLY GOD... I AM FUCN FED UPPPPP....


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Guys, i hate that sh!t...
> 
> It is being a week now with the same problem... i have misfire on high boost and only on high boost.. after 17+psi...
> 
> ...


Why just change 2 coil packs? Why not all 4? Or at least swap them from cylinders? Have you done that?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Target afr? Anything more than 11.5 or so it will start to misfire 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> Why just change 2 coil packs? Why not all 4? Or at least swap them from cylinders? Have you done that?


I cannot have CEL or codes so swaping them won't tell me anything.. i was thinking of getting FSI coils and adapters from IE..

But this car is driving me really crazy..


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Target afr? Anything more than 11.5 or so it will start to misfire
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


I did change my maestro file to one i had max .81 afr, still the same...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

If it's breaking up under boost after all you've done (assuming your coils are good), one suggestion is to close the gap on the plugs and start looking at the health of your coilpack harness because they can get pretty bad and make you chase your tail. BTW, what's the current gap on the plugs and how healthy are they?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> If it's breaking up under boost after all you've done (assuming your coils are good), one suggestion is to close the gap on the plugs and start looking at the health of your coilpack harness because they can get pretty bad and make you chase your tail. BTW, what's the current gap on the plugs and how healthy are they?


It is breaking under heavy boost more than 17+psi, i changed the coils connectors and did a strong ground with 8mm wire, tomorrow i will check the harness.
The spark plug are only 2k miles on the car and the gap is as they come with i guess .032...
But the car was running fine for 2500 miles!! Why the problem started now?? And i am not sure about the coils if they are ok.. i just changed 2 randomly and it got a bit better...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> It is breaking under heavy boost more than 17+psi, i changed the coils connectors and did a strong ground with 8mm wire, tomorrow i will check the harness.
> The spark plug are only 2k miles on the car and the gap is as they come with i guess .032...
> But the car was running fine for 2500 miles!! Why the problem started now?? And i am not sure about the coils if they are ok.. i just changed 2 randomly and it got a bit better...


The heavy boost part make me almost positive that you're blowing spark with increasing cylinder pressure. This is very common when the spark is too weak for the pressure seen in-cylinder. With known good coils, the usual fix is to make the gap tighter until the blowout is cured for the boost that you run (.032 is a pretty large gap btw, especially on weakened coils and an aged/tired harness). Try closing the gap to about .026" and report if the "misfire/breaking" moved to higher psi, this will let you know that you're dealing with blown spark under boost and weakened ignition.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The heavy boost part make me almost positive that you're blowing spark with increasing cylinder pressure. This is very common when the spark is too weak for the pressure seen in-cylinder. With known good coils, the usual fix is to make the gap tighter until the blowout is cured for the boost that you run (.032 is a pretty large gap btw, especially on weakened coils and an aged/tired harness). Try closing the gap to about .026" and report if the "misfire/breaking" moved to higher psi, this will let you know that you're dealing with blown spark under boost and weakened ignition.


Well i had to mention that after i changed 2 coils pack the breaking went up to 20+psi...
I have 4 new spark plug BKR7E gapped to .026 which is (.65mm) i will install them too..
I will get to you what will happen.

Cheers for the great support Marcus...

P.S: your quote in the signature is my favorite..


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> I did change my maestro file to one i had max .81 afr, still the same...


In both full load lambda and pe

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> In both full load lambda and pe
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


Yes, the file i am using is one of the best revision i had... around 250whp on it...


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

FINALLY... SOLVED... 

Marcus_Aurelius, problem solved when i put the spark plugs gapped .026"...  even on my old coils pack...

I really wanna thank you for ur great support, lots of beer yo you Sir..:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

I ordered IE adapters and R8 version coil pack i will install them when they reach... 

My question, should i keep my spark plugs gapped to .026 or should I change the gap? And what's the advantage??

Cheers bro,:beer:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> FINALLY... SOLVED...
> 
> Marcus_Aurelius, problem solved when i put the spark plugs gapped .026"...  even on my old coils pack...
> 
> ...


The advantage is you get to hit high boost without misfires.

There is no advantage to having a larger gap.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> FINALLY... SOLVED...
> 
> Marcus_Aurelius, problem solved when i put the spark plugs gapped .026"...  even on my old coils pack...
> 
> ...


Glad I was able to help you, I would've posted more actively before but the FT/Gonzo war was raging in the thread and I want no part of that nonsense. As always say 99% of the problems seen with these cars when modified are hardware related. Anyway, glad you're past this set of issues!



Sycoticmynd29 said:


> The advantage is you get to hit high boost without misfires.
> 
> There is no advantage to having a larger gap.


Actually, there is an advantage to opening the gap. Maximizing is a better word here, but for X boost (cylinder pressure to be technically exact), you should start with a tight gap and incrementally open it until the threshold is found (and then back it up a notch). The goal is to run the widest possible gap without getting spark blowout for the cyl pressure reached by the specific setup. Having the widest possible gap without blowing the spark provides a more efficient spark for the flame to burn from. That's why there is no magical gap that can be shared between setups, each specific cars should always maximize the gap used to match the engine's demand. :beer:


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## Mr_Long (Dec 9, 2003)

Time to hit the dyno


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Actually, there is an advantage to opening the gap. Maximizing is a better word here, but for X boost (cylinder pressure to be technically exact), you should start with a tight gap and incrementally open it until the threshold is found (and then back it up a notch). The goal is to run the widest possible gap without getting spark blowout for the cyl pressure reached by the specific setup. Having the widest possible gap without blowing the spark provides a more efficient spark for the flame to burn from. That's why there is no magical gap that can be shared between setups, each specific cars should always maximize the gap used to match the engine's demand. :beer:


Thanks for the explanation, but are there noticeable losses when running a smaller gap? Not just power, but MPG, EGT, timing..ect?

Just wondering if the added efficiency is really worth it. 

Then again the "No advantage to a bigger gap" comment was from an American Muscle shop that builds some SERIOUS drag cars (3k+HP cars) So I could why they don't care that much about dialing the gap perfectly, as they are changing fueling and such after each run, so what would be a perfect gap for one run could be too much or too little for the next.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Thanks for the explanation, but are there noticeable losses when running a smaller gap? Not just power, but MPG, EGT, timing..ect?
> 
> Just wondering if the added efficiency is really worth it.
> 
> Then again the "No advantage to a bigger gap" comment was from an American Muscle shop that builds some SERIOUS drag cars (3k+HP cars) So I could why they don't care that much about dialing the gap perfectly, as they are changing fueling and such after each run, so what would be a perfect gap for one run could be too much or too little for the next.


There is an advantage to an optimized gap (like that word better), and it's a real one! Drivability, and gas mileage is usually noticeably improved by opening the gap to optimal levels. In my case for example, before re-doing my coilpack harness (original one had badly cracked wires internally and had seen better days), only tightening the gap under 0.025" guaranteed a blowout-free operation under WOT at 30+ psi. Although 0.022-0.023" was ideal for WOT, it unfortunately came with misfire at idling and low cruising speed as baggage (also recorded the worst average gas mileage I ever had with the car). This clearly showed the real-life importance of the widest, most optimized gap. Yes, the real tight gap compromise allowed clean pulls when loaded, but decreased performance under other normal conditions because the spark didn't allow the best burn (to me it was a needed compromise until my tired harness was refreshed, and thats not what is recommended with normally operating components).


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> There is an advantage to an optimized gap (like that word better), and it's a real one! Drivability, and gas mileage is usually noticeably improved by opening the gap to optimal levels. In my case for example, before re-doing my coilpack harness (original one had badly cracked wires internally and had seen better days), only tightening the gap under 0.025" guaranteed a blowout-free operation under WOT at 30+ psi. Although 0.022-0.023" was ideal for WOT, it unfortunately came with misfire at idling and low cruising speed as baggage (also recorded the worst average gas mileage I ever had with the car). This clearly showed the real-life importance of the widest, most optimized gap. Yes, the real tight gap compromise allowed clean pulls when loaded, but decreased performance under other normal conditions because the spark didn't allow the best burn (to me it was a needed compromise until my tired harness was refreshed, and thats not what is recommended with normally operating components).


Well Max, thanks for the very informative posts  and that's what i wanna see in my thread it IS for the own benefit of the community .

Then, what i understand that the main gain is to get 0 blowout, so when i install the R8 coils pack which are known to allow you to optimize the gap i should be able to go for .030 gab which allow better spark for burning the fuel and then better performance and millage... which is very theorical and logical...

Am i right? Because it is logically a wider gab allow bigger spark then better fuelling, but this should not compromise boost pressure...?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Well Max, thanks for the very informative posts  and that's what i wanna see in my thread it IS for the own benefit of the community .
> 
> Then, what i understand that the main gain is to get 0 blowout, so when i install the R8 coils pack which are known to allow you to optimize the gap i should be able to go for .030 gab which allow better spark for burning the fuel and then better performance and millage... which is very theorical and logical...
> 
> Am i right? Because it is logically a wider gab allow bigger spark then better fuelling, but this should not compromise boost pressure...?


The thing is to not be set or targeting any specific gap number. Just optimize in small increments as explained for your car's need. If it happens to only take the 0.026" to be blowout free, that's the optimized gap for you - if it can take/use more than that, use it. Personally, I don't think you'll get a big improvement (if any) with the 2.0t or R8 coils over fresh 1.8t one of the latest revision, most likely the limiting factor is the health of the harness. Regardless, fresh coils that are used with good plugs with optimized gap will serve you well and keep the engine running properly. :beer:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Get GM ls1 coils instead, proven setup 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dave926 said:


> Get GM ls1 coils instead, proven setup
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


Agree, but I think it's worth mentioning that it's not a plug and play solution and require dwell table adjustments to work to its full potential. That's what I'm doing on my car over the winter and it's a real proven ignition improvement, just not easily executed as one would think (not every member here have the capacity to source parts to build and execute the conversion, especially making the appropriate dwell tables tweaks).


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A gap of 0.022 - 0.024 is also proven to work. We never recommend a gap any larger.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Agree, but I think it's worth mentioning that it's not a plug and play solution and require dwell table adjustments to work to its full potential. That's what I'm doing on my car over the winter and it's a real proven ignition improvement, just not easily executed as one would think (not every member here have the capacity to source parts to build and execute the conversion, especially making the appropriate dwell tables tweaks).


Maestro has dwell tables. 



[email protected] said:


> A gap of 0.022 - 0.024 is also proven to work. We never recommend a gap any larger.


Ill actually agree with you on this.

I dont know why everyone seems to think running a huge gap is a good idea, because the gains arent worth the hassle.

Set them like doug said, use bkr7es and change then every 10k and never have a misfire.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Its also worth a mention that plugs like to open up after a while on their own. Running a larger gap can put unwanted abuse on coils and cause pre mature failure. I will typically pull my plugs and re-gap them after a while and I have never had a coil pack failure *ever*! My sweet spot is about 0.026-0.027 and I run 26psi+ daily with zero break up on fsi coils with new harness. The important thing to understand that Max has pointed out is that there is no magical number, different set-ups call for different gaps. :thumbup: I also like to index my plugs but thats another story...


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> *Ill actually agree with you on this.
> 
> I dont know why everyone seems to think running a huge gap is a good idea, because the gains arent worth the hassle.
> *
> Set them like doug said, use bkr7es and change then every 10k and never have a misfire.


THIS

I personally have gapped my plugs way down now. Probably between .022 - .023. 
The coils suck, no need to push them beyond their limit. If you have LS coils that's a whole different story, but there's not many of those running around.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dave926 said:


> Maestro has dwell tables.


And I guess a manual that shows the uninitiated how to properly dial the dwell adjustment for the chosen coil. Like I said, it's a good performance step up (I'm doing it myself on my car) but it might be not be the ideal mod for everyone - IMO the last thing the OP needs right now, is another round of endless tail-chasing action. 




DMVDUB said:


> I personally have gapped my plugs way down now. Probably between .022 - .023.
> The coils suck, no need to push them beyond their limit. If you have LS coils that's a whole different story, but there's not many of those running around.


Running higher gap than the setup calls for is not smart, but properly optimizing the gap also doesn't place unnecessary stress on the coils. I agree that going too big is stupid and pushing the components, but randomly picking a small gap is not the greatest idea too. That's why when people advertise a magical gap that works for every application, they might be hurting others more than helping them.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> And I guess a manual that shows the uninitiated how to properly dial the dwell adjustment for the chosen coil. Like I said, it's a good performance step up (I'm doing it myself on my car) but it might be not be the ideal mod for everyone - IMO the last thing the OP needs right now, is another round of endless tail-chasing action.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Poke around on the ls1 forums and I'm sure someone will post what dwell related tables you might need. Half those guys are running HPtuners or EFIlive so I don't see it being s big deal.

I'm not trying to sound difficult, but can you share some technical data/details on plug gap, even if in another thread? I'm really seeing it black and white on plug gap to be honest.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The thing is to not be set or targeting any specific gap number. Just optimize in small increments as explained for your car's need. If it happens to only take the 0.026" to be blowout free, that's the optimized gap for you - if it can take/use more than that, use it. Personally, I don't think you'll get a big improvement (if any) with the 2.0t or R8 coils over fresh 1.8t one of the latest revision, most likely the limiting factor is the health of the harness. Regardless, fresh coils that are used with good plugs with optimized gap will serve you well and keep the engine running properly. :beer:


Yes, I think my coils are really weak now when I removed them they smelled like burned from their inside. and I will be doing some custom harness my bro is a pro electrician and he got all the tools so he offered his help . Now after 2 days of driving it well, I got once again blowout @ 24psi that's why I assume I NEED to get some new coils and do the harness. And I get them and install them I will drive the car with Sparks gapped to .026" if I still get blowout I will start reducing it to .024".

FSI and R8 coils are cheaper than my 1.8t AWD ones, and you can find them for 30$ here, while my OEM one cost around 57$ each , so that's why I decided to get them, and they SAY they last longer. 




[email protected] said:


> A gap of 0.022 - 0.024 is also proven to work. We never recommend a gap any larger.


Well, I was thinking of getting it down to .024", but I am still waiting to get the new coils and adapters you are sending with the F23T kit :laugh:




DMVDUB said:


> THIS
> I personally have gapped my plugs way down now. Probably between .022 - .023.
> The coils suck, no need to push them beyond their limit. If you have LS coils that's a whole different story, but there's not many of those running around.


Well I agree that coils sucks, I think VW engineer did these to benefit from aftersales coils selling  :banghead:

By the way, you pointed that the white smoke I am getting from my tailpipe is from the Oil Catch Can, so I did put some wool steel inside it as you suggested, and gave it a vacuum source on idle while still using the puck, and GUESS WHAT? I am not getting any more smoke from the tailpipe :laugh:!!! It is been a week now with SMOKE FREE!! touch the wood  , I hope it remains the same and I still have to check the oil level and its consumption!!!




Twopnt016v said:


> *Its also worth a mention that plugs like to open up after a while on their own.* Running a larger gap can put unwanted abuse on coils and cause pre mature failure. I will typically pull my plugs and re-gap them after a while and I have never had a coil pack failure *ever*! My sweet spot is about 0.026-0.027 and I run 26psi+ daily with zero break up on fsi coils with new harness. The important thing to understand that Max has pointed out is that there is no magical number, different set-ups call for different gaps. :thumbup: I also like to index my plugs but thats another story...


That's was interesting to know, we have to keep an eye on them from time to time!!! As well I was thinking the same as you said above new R8 coil with a fresh harness and new BKR7E sparks with +-.025" gap and should be ready to go!!!




Marcus_Aurelius said:


> And I guess a manual that shows the uninitiated how to properly dial the dwell adjustment for the chosen coil. Like I said, it's a good performance step up (I'm doing it myself on my car) but it might be not be the ideal mod for everyone - *IMO the last thing the OP needs right now, is another round of endless tail-chasing action.*


Definitely I am not going through this!!! I have enough headache!!! :thumbup:


Cheers for all of you for the GREAT support and posts :beer:


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

Wow, sounds like you've been doing lots of mods on your F21! I hope to use this thread to learn a few things when I decide to take my F21 to the next level. I'm still running stock injectors and my old Stage 1 APR tune. I like it over the stock turbo but I want to go with bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, FPR and new software load to hopefully get more power out of this come Spring time. I typically run 15 PSI on my F21 and will put it up to 17 psi with 100 Octane in 100 Octane mode on the APR and that's pretty solid for sure. But high octane gas is very hard to come by and way expensive so it's very rare I run in that mode.

I've heard the waste gate on the F21 is only good for 18 PSI or something? Not sure how true that is but I remember reading that somewhere a while back. Did you have any waste gate issues on your F21? Sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread right now. 

Nice to you tuning and pushing your 1.8t! You going to the F23 soon?

Thanks :thumbup:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

gli87jetta said:


> Wow, sounds like you've been doing lots of mods on your F21! I hope to use this thread to learn a few things when I decide to take my F21 to the next level. I'm still running stock injectors and my old Stage 1 APR tune. I like it over the stock turbo but I want to go with bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, FPR and new software load to hopefully get more power out of this come Spring time. I typically run 15 PSI on my F21 and will put it up to 17 psi with 100 Octane in 100 Octane mode on the APR and that's pretty solid for sure. But high octane gas is very hard to come by and way expensive so it's very rare I run in that mode.
> 
> I've heard the waste gate on the F21 is only good for 18 PSI or something? Not sure how true that is but I remember reading that somewhere a while back. Did you have any waste gate issues on your F21? Sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread right now.
> 
> ...



Well indeed i did so many mods here and that cost to many $$$ 
I run my F21 @ 24+psi with Eurodyne file made by DMVDUB which is proved to be a very solid file.. i tried with mk6 stg1+ Revo last day and that guy was crazy when i was ahead with 15m :laugh:...

I am pretty sure u will love ur F21 when getting a new remap... there is nothing wrong with the wastegate, but you have to set the load to 10psi and all is well... i didn't had ny problem with it, but i suggest i go Eurodyne or custom tune.. Contact DMVDUB he will take care of you.. 

This is the biggest turbo i am getting on my car... not worth spending more money on it... if i ever think of more power i will go AWD not FWD...

Cheers,


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## gli87jetta (Nov 26, 2001)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Well indeed i did so many mods here and that cost to many $$$
> I run my F21 @ 24+psi with Eurodyne file made by DMVDUB which is proved to be a very solid file.. i tried with mk6 stg1+ Revo last day and that guy was crazy when i was ahead with 15m :laugh:...
> 
> I am pretty sure u will love ur F21 when getting a new remap... there is nothing wrong with the wastegate, but you have to set the load to 10psi and all is well... i didn't had ny problem with it, but i suggest i go Eurodyne or custom tune.. Contact DMVDUB he will take care of you..
> ...


Aweome! Thanks for your tuning efforts and information. I'll definitely look into the Eurodyne when I decide to reprogram. I was thinking about Unitronic but I don't think I'll go with them. Good to hear you haven't had any issues with the wastegate. I'm still learning so I'll need to look into how to set the load to 10psi,etc. 

I would love to be pushing 20+ PSI on the F21! I bet that's a lot of fun. It's a balaning act to keep my DD tuned up for more power and still remain reliable. Hopefully I can have the best of both worlds.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing more about your F21 Tuning experience. :beer:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

20psi isn't enough. 22-24psi is good. 25-28psi is damned good. Anything over 22psi you'll need water meth AND a FMIC.


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## 1.8turbs (Jun 17, 2012)

Just curious- so what gap have you heard that most of the f21t guys are running? I've got 2.0t coils with b7kre's gapped to .032. Any recommendations?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Here's what Doug said



[email protected] said:


> A gap of 0.022 - 0.024 is also proven to work. We never recommend a gap any larger.


I gapped mine .022 and I am running 26~27 psi without any problem.


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## 1.8turbs (Jun 17, 2012)

And that's with the 2.0t coils?


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## ~Enigma~ (Jul 8, 2009)

If you are going to use 2.0t coils the point in them is to OPEN UP THE GAP. What everyone is sayin is there is no point in a larger gap... there is.. the 2.0t coil mod is a non performance mod. It is to be able to open up the gap to wider ranges and have minimal performance loss (if any). Rocking 21psi tune holding 17 to 18 most of the time, and my gap was around .034. I was at .038 until the tune and maybe I have old wire harness too... but my fuel mileage was awsome. I went with new plugs about 4k miles ago and they are gaped at .028... fuel mileage is back down but I was trying to solve some power loss issues and nothing helped. Im blaming those issues on summer heat.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A narrow gap trumps 2.0T coil packs. No matter what you run in the latter case, keep the plugs under 0.024.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> A narrow gap trumps 2.0T coil packs. No matter what you run in the latter case, keep the plugs under 0.024.


Not my norm but I'm with Doug here. 

I like my spark plugs like my women, tight gaps.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok guys, i got my SnowPerformance stg2 kit with dual nozzles...a big thanks to [email protected] for great support 

Now i need to know to which wire color in MAF should I connect the yellow wire of the controller so i get the 0 to 5 volt signal, since i will be running a MAF progressive controller..

Thx,


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## ballergti (Nov 17, 2010)

What psi are you holding at redline? I was thinking about trying to push my f21 25-28psi. I also have a water meth stage 2 kit installed and spaying but not tuned for it yet. Just a gonzo f21 tune.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

ballergti said:


> What psi are you holding at redline? I was thinking about trying to push my f21 25-28psi. I also have a water meth stage 2 kit installed and spaying but not tuned for it yet. Just a gonzo f21 tune.


Well, did u connect your Stg2 kit to the MAF? and to which wire color?

I have Eurodyne tuned by DMVDUB I am hitting 26+psi and tapping 22~23PSI, but I am not driving it hard waiting to install the WMI since I had 55*C IAT.

Since I would appreciate if you tell me to which MAF wire did you connect your WM kit?

Cheers,:beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Come Guys, no one knows to which MAF wire I should connect my stg 2 WMI progressive controller?? I need the wire that read 0-5V.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I just saw a wiring diagram of a MAF harness a few days ago. I can't remember where now. If I happened across it on Google images or in my Bentley.


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## cwyamz (Aug 1, 2012)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Come Guys, no one knows to which MAF wire I should connect my stg 2 WMI progressive controller?? I need the wire that read 0-5V.


According to this thread it's "the BLACK one #5"


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## ballergti (Nov 17, 2010)

cwyamz said:


> According to this thread it's "the BLACK one #5"


This is correct I just went outside and double checked it's the thinnest wire and is black aka maf signal wire.


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Ok guys, i got my SnowPerformance stg2 kit with dual nozzles...a big thanks to [email protected] for great support
> 
> Now i need to know to which wire color in MAF should I connect the yellow wire of the controller so i get the 0 to 5 volt signal, since i will be running a MAF progressive controller..
> 
> Thx,


sorry i cannot help with the MAF wiring, but can I ask why you chose progressive maf controller vs manifold pressure controller?


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## ballergti (Nov 17, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> sorry i cannot help with the MAF wiring, but can I ask why you chose progressive maf controller vs manifold pressure controller?


Small frame turbo's spool too fast too get a good signal. Big turbos run manifold pressure controllers.


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

ballergti said:


> Small frame turbo's spool too fast too get a good signal. Big turbos run manifold pressure controllers.


:thumbup:


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## hallkbrd (Apr 8, 2000)

DMVDUB said:


> Not my norm but I'm with Doug here.
> 
> I like my spark plugs like my women, tight gaps.


^ I may have to use that for a signature...

Maybe, but definitely a narrower gap AND fresh 2.0T coils was even better for me. :thumbup:

With .032 (what I always ran with the OEM turbo on APR) and the old coils - it missed so badly at higher RPMs on the copper plugs and a Maestro tune I thought the manifold or turbo gasket was leaking (been there - done that). So I narrowed the gap to 0.026, but it still was a little rough at higher RPMS. Since the old coils had about 90K on them, I picked up some 2.0T coils (the red topped ones) for just $17 ea from the dealer to see what the big fuss was. Well, the mileage went up immediately (better than it ever was with the old turbo and software), and there are no more misses from what I can tell.

Now that it's running so strong - I fear the transmission is not long for this world. 

Bryan


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Its the black wire for the maf...:thumbup:


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