# TDi; To Tune, or not To Tune



## A3EE!! (Jan 13, 2012)

I think that tuning the new TDi's is becoming more confusing every time that I see a new product release. Can I do Stage 1, or stage 2 ECU tune without DSG software is probably the most confusing issue for me as I am not a Tune tech, or an Auto mechanic. 

After reading the forums for the most part of a year, and looking at all the different tune developers products, and claims, I have not seen the DSG software (with or without ECU remaps) explained like this:

"Would you go buy a clutch for a 500 hp car, but only tell the clutch manufacturer that your making 250 hp? In order to not hit the Torque limit they must tell the ECU ( which directly reports engine torque to the DSG ECU ) to mis-represent the torque output of the motor to not hit the torque limit that is in the DSG software". 

Makes sense to me, and is the #1 reason that I have decided to do this step first. 

I thought that I would share this thought for those like me that are trying to make a decision to tune, or not to tune our TDi DSG cars , and also to get some thoughts from people in the know.


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

as far as i know you dont need dsg tune to have chip. People with stage 3 or K04 petrol engines run stock DSG softwware with 0 problems.

so tdi tune should not need no DSG software. APR does not have one and they run their cars hard so no problems


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## Subaruski1 (Oct 22, 2010)

Malone Stage I - Stock DPF, DSG Tune "recommended"
Malone Stage II - DPF delete required, DSG Tune "pretty much required"

APR Stage I - Stock DPF, DSG Tune "not required"

That being said the Malone route does not seem practical for the TDI. A stage II tune with a the requirements is going to cost you close to $2k ($550 ECU tune, $500 DSG tune, $750 DPF delete). All for just a 33hp/70ib-ft gain...

Granted with the removal of the DPF and stage II tune you gain assurance of not having an expensive part to replace when it breaks but still you're paying almost $29 per ft/lb.


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## free4s0me (Jun 23, 2011)

My understanding is that the ECU tune people, if they are good, can "fake" the reported output of torque that the ECU communicates to the DSG. 

So, then, instead of upping the torque limit of the DSG (which is what a DSG flash does), the ECU people do the opposite and produce more torque but then "lie to" or otherwise modify the communication between the ECU and the DSG so that the un-flashed DSG thinks all is well. 

The ECU flash then has the ability to not only re-map the engine output, but also tweak the way the ECU communicates its power output to the DSG. In this way, it's possible to produce more torque than the stock DSG is originally set up to accept, because the tweaked ECU is lying to the transmission.

According to this logic, the DSGs in a TDI are fine to accept more torque (hardware based) than the ~258 ft lb maximums (software based) that they are sent out of the factory - the machinery is over-engineered to accept more torque, but the software has an artificial maximum imposed on it. The ECU flashing people know this and are able to send more torque to a stock un-flashed DSG by circumventing this maximum through the ECU.

The same thing can be done in a DSG flash.

But this is what - at least I think - the ECU people mean when they say they can deliver more torque to an un-flashed DSG.

If you read through this thread and look for comments by APR techs, you'll see them say much of the same thing.

Anyways, this is coming from someone who does not make software hacks for transmissions or engines, to take it all with a large grain of salt.


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## Tcardio (Mar 19, 2009)

just get the apr flash. it does not need a dsg flash. you will like it


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## A3EE!! (Jan 13, 2012)

free4s0me said:


> So, then, instead of upping the torque limit of the DSG (which is what a DSG flash does), the ECU people do the opposite and produce more torque but then "lie to" or otherwise modify the communication between the ECU and the DSG so that the un-flashed DSG thinks all is well.
> 
> The ECU flash then has the ability to not only re-map the engine output, but also tweak the way the ECU communicates its power output to the DSG. In this way, it's possible to produce more torque than the stock DSG is originally set up to accept, because the tweaked ECU is lying to the transmission.
> 
> According to this logic, the DSGs in a TDI are fine to accept more torque (hardware based) than the ~258 ft lb maximums (software based) that they are sent out of the factory - the machinery is over-engineered to accept more torque, but the software has an artificial maximum imposed on it. The ECU flashing people know this and are able to send more torque to a stock un-flashed DSG by circumventing this maximum through the ECU.


Thanks free4s0me, Great dialog! I wish the tuners would take the time to explain these type details.

What are you basing the " over-engineered to accept more torque" statement on? I would assume that most manufacturers do this, but how do we know when these limits have been safely overreached as most products avoid discussing this factor (and expect us to trust them?)?


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## A3EE!! (Jan 13, 2012)

tcardio said:


> just get the apr flash. it does not need a dsg flash. you will like it


Many have reported that there are issues with their DSG after tuning without DSG software upgrades. Some companies have noticed this and have made products to overcome this shortfall.

So, the main reason for this thread is to share actual information and experiences to support, or dispute the safety and effectiveness of using tunes on expensive new cars; before we all find out the hard way that they do not work as good as claimed by blanket statements such as yours.


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

A3EE!! said:


> Thanks free4s0me, Great dialog! I wish the tuners would take the time to explain these type details.
> 
> What are you basing the " over-engineered to accept more torque" statement on? I would assume that most manufacturers do this, but how do we know when these limits have been safely overreached as most products avoid discussing this factor (and expect us to trust them?)?


because there are cars out there with 400+HP running stock DSG software and hardware


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## A3EE!! (Jan 13, 2012)

tp.wannabe.s3 said:


> because there are cars out there with 400+HP running stock DSG software and hardware


2010-2012 CR TDi's? Is that your car that your speaking of or someone you know? Which Tune are they running on it? Stage I, II, III? Are they experiencing any DSG issues when in D?

These are the type of details that I am trying to bring into this thread so that we all can have access to information that is relevant and applicable to newer CR TDi's instead of blanket statements that have no specifics, details or elaborations. 

Thanks!


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## bmw511 (Jul 16, 2010)

Have the APR tune + HPA DSG tune.... love them both! No issues other than a ton more power!



A3EE!! said:


> 2010-2012 CR TDi's? Is that your car that your speaking of or someone you know? Which Tune are they running on it? Stage I, II, III? Are they experiencing any DSG issues when in D?
> 
> These are the type of details that I am trying to bring into this thread so that we all can have access to information that is relevant and applicable to newer CR TDi's instead of blanket statements that have no specifics, details or elaborations.
> 
> Thanks!


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## tp.wannabe.s3 (May 21, 2010)

here u go


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## free4s0me (Jun 23, 2011)

A3EE!! said:


> 2010-2012 CR TDi's? Is that your car that your speaking of or someone you know? Which Tune are they running on it? Stage I, II, III? Are they experiencing any DSG issues when in D?
> 
> These are the type of details that I am trying to bring into this thread so that we all can have access to information that is relevant and applicable to newer CR TDi's instead of blanket statements that have no specifics, details or elaborations.
> 
> Thanks!


The DSG transmission is the same for the gas A3s (I think) and many of those have been modded out the wazzoo. So you're probably right that there may not be any 400+ HP TDIs, there surely are some giant HP gas A3s running the same transmissions.

There's no way that APR would sell an ECU tune and make a claim about it not needing a DSG flash without it being well researched. They certainly have their hands on a lot of crazy modded cars.

That being said, if you look at the thread I linked to earlier about APR's TDI ECU tune, most of the questions were about whether a transmission flash would be needed or not and why so you're in good company with the questions.

I'm sure there's a long and detailed explanation, but there's also the shorter explanation - "Because they made it work that way".


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## bmw511 (Jul 16, 2010)

I say quit with the questions and just buy the APR tune.... you'll love it


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## Greddy87 (Oct 21, 2010)

From what I keep hearing over & over again is that the DSG transmission can handle around the 300hp mark.. What I think might have happened in the stories of people have ECU tunes & end up with damaged DSG Transmissions is the fact that the DSG transmission is not able to handle high RPM's with higher then stock HP ratings therefore breaks.. The DSG transmission is designed to give you high torque within the low range RPM's.. It even has a 4000RPM limiter for a reason..I'm not sure about the DSG Software at the moment..


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## TBomb (Sep 23, 2009)

Greddy87 said:


> From what I keep hearing over & over again is that the DSG transmission can handle around the 300hp mark.. What I think might have happened in the stories of people have ECU tunes & end up with damaged DSG Transmissions is the fact that the DSG transmission is not able to handle high RPM's with higher then stock HP ratings therefore breaks.. The DSG transmission is designed to give you high torque within the low range RPM's.. It even has a 4000RPM limiter for a reason.. Most importantly there is an DSG Upgrade part.. I'm not sure about the DSG Software at the moment..


Do you have anything solid to support any of that?


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## Subaruski1 (Oct 22, 2010)

Greddy87 said:


> Most importantly there is an DSG Upgrade part.. I'm not sure about the DSG Software at the moment..


What's this magical upgrade part?


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## Tcardio (Mar 19, 2009)

A3EE!! said:


> blanket statements such as yours.


The issue regarding ECU and TCU tune has been covered many times by APR. Call APR and talk to them. They will tell you the same thing. If you need personal attention by APR corporate, let me know and I can provide a cell number


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## Greddy87 (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm not saying that is holy grail but the part is : Quaife Limited Slip Gear Differential DSG gearbox.. I read this off a forum post.. Here Read Up --> http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/project-room/113025-laurent-d-audi-a3-project.html


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

bmw511 said:


> Have the APR tune + HPA DSG tune.... love them both! No issues other than a ton more power!


How many miles and how much time have you had it? Did you try the APR tune without the DSG tune?


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## TBomb (Sep 23, 2009)

Greddy87 said:


> From what I keep hearing over & over again is that the DSG transmission can handle around the 300hp mark.. What I think might have happened in the stories of people have ECU tunes & end up with damaged DSG Transmissions is the fact that the DSG transmission is not able to handle high RPM's with higher then stock HP ratings therefore breaks.. The DSG transmission is designed to give you high torque within the low range RPM's.. It even has a 4000RPM limiter for a reason..I'm not sure about the DSG Software at the moment..





Greddy87 said:


> I'm not saying that is holy grail but the part is : Quaife Limited Slip Gear Differential DSG gearbox.. I read this off a forum post.. Here Read Up --> http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/project-room/113025-laurent-d-audi-a3-project.html


I'm afraid you are spreading misinformation, or at least not being very clear about how you presented it the first time. You made it sound like there is some OEM upgraded part for the DSG that makes it more reliable. The Quaife LSD you mentioned is beneficial for improving traction, but it doesn't really do anything as far as improving reliability goes.

According to multiple techs I've talked to, the DSG is a solid transmission. Complicated, for sure, but not fragile (unlike, for example, certain Ford transmissions of late). The only issues I have heard of with the DSG are the mechatronics failure and the faulty temperature sensor, which can and has happened on bone stock brand new cars. The 4000 RPM limiter you speak of, I believe, is the neutral rev limiter, and it is only there because it's not exactly healthy to rev the piss out of your engine with no load on it. Bringing it to redline in gear is a different story. Also, I am not sure if you are aware but HP is simply a factor of torque and engine speed. Generally speaking, torque is greater than HP up to 5252 RPM, at which point, assuming torque holds constant, HP increases as engine speed increases. On a turbo car, unless you are running a bigger turbo, torque tends to peak early and taper off towards redline, meaning the higher the RPM, the _less_ the actual forces exerted on the transmission are. The only issue I could really foresee with running 400HP and up with the DSG would be the clutch packs going out, in which case SSP and HPA both have upgraded clutches available.

Anyway...someone with more knowledge than me feel free to chime in and correct anything I might have gotten wrong...


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## bmw511 (Jul 16, 2010)

I've had the DSG tune for over 1 year, about 30K miles. No issues! The APR tune I just got installed, so no without the DSG tune. Because there's not way to modify the DSG tune off/on like the APR. At least with the APR tune I could toggle stock mode/performance mode.



dmorrow said:


> How many miles and how much time have you had it? Did you try the APR tune without the DSG tune?


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## Greddy87 (Oct 21, 2010)

TBomb said:


> I'm afraid you are spreading misinformation, or at least not being very clear about how you presented it the first time. You made it sound like there is some OEM upgraded part for the DSG that makes it more reliable. The Quaife LSD you mentioned is beneficial for improving traction, but it doesn't really do anything as far as improving reliability goes.
> 
> According to multiple techs I've talked to, the DSG is a solid transmission. Complicated, for sure, but not fragile (unlike, for example, certain Ford transmissions of late). The only issues I have heard of with the DSG are the mechatronics failure and the faulty temperature sensor, which can and has happened on bone stock brand new cars. The 4000 RPM limiter you speak of, I believe, is the neutral rev limiter, and it is only there because it's not exactly healthy to rev the piss out of your engine with no load on it. Bringing it to redline in gear is a different story. Also, I am not sure if you are aware but HP is simply a factor of torque and engine speed. Generally speaking, torque is greater than HP up to 5252 RPM, at which point, assuming torque holds constant, HP increases as engine speed increases. On a turbo car, unless you are running a bigger turbo, torque tends to peak early and taper off towards redline, meaning the higher the RPM, the _less_ the actual forces exerted on the transmission are. The only issue I could really foresee with running 400HP and up with the DSG would be the clutch packs going out, in which case SSP and HPA both have upgraded clutches available.
> 
> Anyway...someone with more knowledge than me feel free to chime in and correct anything I might have gotten wrong...


You have valid points, I won't take that away from you.. If you know soo much as you did, why not reply earlier? lol .. 4000RPM limit =Going back to my convo I highlighted this is what I might think has happened.. Yes I am aware of the heat sensor & some clutch packs actually cause the DSG to overheat ( hence shifting @ higher RPMs will do cause this prematurely especially with more HP & TQ ?? ) Where are you gonna go all 7000RPM besides a track? so shifting at lower shift points might be a good rule of thumb in terms of street use  Mechatronics unit malfunction is still an issue.. Yet the DSG transmission hasn't exploded to pieces with higher HP & TQ ratings, so your right it is well built.. The LSD, I wasn't something I knew for a fact, it was something I caught in the forum, owner called it a (DSG part) so I assumed it was a new part considering he lives in Europe.. There is ton of cars still on the road, DSG in mind, tuned by APR Stage 2 & run amazing.. So I guess it varies on the life of your DSG transmission.. My friend has a 2006 GTi, DSG, APR Stage 2, walks all over G35's & G37's.. Yet nothing is wrong with his DSG transmission & has had the tune for a whole year & a half. I guess what I was TRYING to do is to TRY to educate the great people here, the ones who invested their hard working money on cars & expect to enjoy them.. Thanks for your time as I enjoyed the read up..


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## max86 (Aug 13, 2007)

Subaruski1 said:


> Malone Stage I - Stock DPF, DSG Tune "recommended"
> Malone Stage II - DPF delete required, DSG Tune "pretty much required"
> 
> APR Stage I - Stock DPF, DSG Tune "not required"
> ...


Hey guys, I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to clear up a few things:

The DPF delete is not required for a stage 2 tune; it is recommended to reduce EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) in warmer climates.

The DSG tune is required unless you like notchy shifts. Stock torque limiter is 258ft-lbs, exceed that and it will cut torque.
DSG software is NOT the same between gas and diesel cars.

APR customers are having problems with stock DSG software, here is one example
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3876645&postcount=49

APRs advertised numbers are misleading. They show the max difference at a given RPM.
Malone's numbers are peak numbers and way higher.

While I haven't seen any APR customer dyno charts, Malone has a number of them on TDIClub:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=323946

Full disclosure: my mk4 TDI has a stage 1.5 Malone tune. I was considering an APR tune for my 1.8t when I decided to sell it to fund the TDI purchase (because 42mpg on 225/40 R18 UHP summer tires).


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## Subaruski1 (Oct 22, 2010)

Needless to say I'm glad I didn't bite at the APR tune. Saving for Malone Stage II with DSG reflash. I have not heard any good reviews with the APR tune in regards to the DSG. Only problems. Someone prove me wrong...



max86 said:


> Hey guys, I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to clear up a few things:
> 
> The DPF delete is not required for a stage 2 tune; it is recommended to reduce EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) in warmer climates.
> 
> ...


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## andydg (Jun 4, 2012)

*Had the APR and went to Malone*

I started off with the APR tune and ended up going to a Malone 2. The APR was giving me issues with hesitations when accelerating. The Malone 2 is smooth and the car pulls strong.

Prior to either tune I did have the DSG flashed. I like seeing what gear the trans. is in and the overall behavior is an improvement. One thing I have noticed though is that traction control doesn't appear to work anymore (not that I care). With it on/off it will still smoke the tires off the line. Am I thinking about this incorrectly? Shouldn't the traction control prevent the wheels from spinning in all conditions, or is it only when one is traveling through water or slick surfaces and then it 'activates'. One other thing is when taking a left hand turn in sport mode, the engine will continue to rev until redline without shifting when I think it should.

Sorry to ramble on, I need more torque.... (Once you get a taste it becomes an addiction.)


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