# Blown engine.



## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

I have a 2008 GTI with the BPY FSI motor. This past Friday I packed up my dogs and by girlfriend to go visit family over the weekend. I hopped on the freeway and the car was running fine, about 30 minutes into the trip I had transferred to a different freeway, accelerated up to speed, and set the cruise control to 75mph in the car pool lane.

About two minutes later all hell broke loose. A sudden loss of power, car started shaking, and the CEL started flashing.

I managed to pull off the freeway and into a parking lot, the car had no power and was shaking like it was running on 2-3 cylinders. A long, all night ordeal later and I had it dropped off at a VW dealership at 3am and came in the next day to get it sorted.

They did a compression/leakdown test and cylinder #2 had no compression, 100% leakdown. so they said bent or broken valve. Only way to know for sure would be to pull the head. $1400 later I come in to see this:

















*A chunk of valve broke free, guess that explains the (lack of) compression...
I guess that chunk shattered in the combustion chamber because there were little chunks of metal stuck all over the head's combustion chamber.*









*And it looks like a piece got lodged between the piston and the cylinder wall and ground a nice groove into the block.*

VW is recommending a full engine replacement, says a rebuild isn't worth it and they can't hone the cylinders on this motor.

A little background on the car.

The car is an '08 with ~85,000 miles on it. It's bone stock and to my knowledge has never been modified.
The only issue I've had with it is what I considered excessive oil consumption. I brought it to the VW dealer for this issue and they ran an oil consumption test. It came out to be about 3/4 a quart per 1000 miles which is within VW's consumption specs so nothing ever came of it.

Since owning the car I've had to do two oil changes, both done at VW and it has been topped off by VW frequently due to the oil consumption.

Otherwise the car has ran great for the 20,000+ miles I've owned it. It was never beaten on, over-revved, or abused in any way in the time that I've owned it. I do drive spiritedly sometimes, mostly WOT to accelerate onto the freeway every once in a while or similar but nothing that this car shouldn't be able to handle. Right before this happened the car was driving fine and felt like it had just as much power as it usually does.

I'm wondering if anyone has seen anything like this before or has any sort of explanation?:banghead:


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## Michael W Dane (Feb 23, 2013)

*engine*

I don't know why VW can't hone the cylinder. From the photo it doesn't look too bad. It is a cast iron engine block should hone fine. I'd replace the piston rings, have the cylinder head overhauled and put it all back together.


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

Michael W Dane said:


> I don't know why VW can't hone the cylinder. From the photo it doesn't look too bad. It is a cast iron engine block should hone fine. I'd replace the piston rings, have the cylinder head overhauled and put it all back together.


The tech I talked to who disassembled the motor for me claimed it couldn't be honed and that VW does some sort of "plasma coating" to the cylinder. I have no clue.

I was quoted "about $8000" for the new motor, installed. If that is the case and none of this is covered by my third party warranty I might just do what you suggest.


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## vce1232000 (Apr 10, 2001)

Most 3rd party after market mechanical breakdown service contract will cover this failure.Make sure you have your maintance reciepts in order.They will be asking for it.


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## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

So they are saying there is no way to rebuild one of these engines? That sounds weird to me. 

I'd get a second opinion and see what aftermarket builds are out there with a used head.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I would look for a used engine or into rebuilding this engine before I would buy a new engine. I would also be headed straight to a good independent shop and leave VW behind.


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## Bo Toichi (Jan 15, 2013)

From,the pictures,that groove looks more like a light scratch. If there is a good inependent shop nearby,you can get lucky and get away with a single valve replacement and there is a very ghood chance it would be just fine after that.
I rebuilt a 2.0T FSI head just recently that broke a timing belt,and ended up using Supertech valves,they were less expensive than OE and work just fine.


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

vce1232000 said:


> Most 3rd party after market mechanical breakdown service contract will cover this failure.Make sure you have your maintance reciepts in order.They will be asking for it.


All maintenance was carried out at the VW dealership it is currently locate at.

About the warranty, I had 900 miles left on my 24,000 mile "5 star bumper to bumper" warranty and the first thing the warranty company told my VW service manager is that *"if the damage was caused by carbon buildup, we do not cover it"*. I checked in the service contract and sure enough there is a "carbon buildup" clause excepting coverage and negating the contract shoud any damage be caused by or repair be necessitated by carbon buildup.

I'm very worried that the company will attempt to weasel out of the repair (replacement) simply based on the fact that that there is carbon buildup in the motor and on the valve in question (buildup which is to be expected regardless on a motor with 85,000 miles)

I'm not aware of any mechanism for this amount of carbon buildup to cause a catastrophic valve failure like this. There was nothing impeding the actuation of the valve either on the valve or in the seat. But regardless I'm prepping for a fight with them on this. The warranty company was demanding an explanation for the failure from the VW tech and he was unable to give them one and had said he has never seen a failure like this before.


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

Tutti57 said:


> So they are saying there is no way to rebuild one of these engines? That sounds weird to me.
> 
> I'd get a second opinion and see what aftermarket builds are out there with a used head.


They didn't say they couldn't rebuild the motor, just that they couldn't hone the cylinder due to some special "plasma coating" that VW does the the cylinder walls. I'm sure if I took it to some mom and pop type garage they'd have no problem carting it off the machine shop for a hone/bore job and rebuilding it. I'm just not sure that's the best option.

If it came to that I'd just rebuild it myself and save some money. But I'm hoping the warranty company lives up to their side of the service contract.


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

Bo Toichi said:


> From,the pictures,that groove looks more like a light scratch. If there is a good inependent shop nearby,you can get lucky and get away with a single valve replacement and there is a very ghood chance it would be just fine after that.
> I rebuilt a 2.0T FSI head just recently that broke a timing belt,and ended up using Supertech valves,they were less expensive than OE and work just fine.


I thought the same thing when the service manager sent me pictures and when I first saw it, but if you run your finger over it its a noticeable step that will catch your fingernail. Rebuilding the head and leaving the bottom end as is, I suspect, would only exacerbate the oil consumption issue I've been having with it.


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## vce1232000 (Apr 10, 2001)

3rd party service contract administrators use independant mechanical breakdown field inspectors to look at the failure's.He will inspect and take pix of dameage.He will also ask the technician on what his opinion on what the cause of failure was.But without actual proof of failure.its just that,an opinion.If the valve itself was the cause of failure from a material defect.Your good.Most service mechanical breakdown contract do not cover burnt valves.oil consumption,compression loss, or dameage from carbon build up or a reduction in operating performance due to wear and tear.

One theory is that going from the pictures of what is shown.A piece of carbon dislodged from the valve train area and went into the combustion area and then impacted the valve when the piston reached top dead center.Then the broken pieces of the valve and carbon scored the cylinder wall.

Another one is a piece of carbon dislodged from the valve train area and cause the valve to stick open and then when the piston reached top dead center it impacted the valve.Breaking it and then pieces feel into combustion area scoring the cylinder wall

Another theory would be the valve suffered a material failure and then dropped into the cylinder and then scored it

The last option would fit the service mechanical breakdown term for coverage eligibilty


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## A3Performance (Jul 22, 2006)

I'll take that engine off your hands and rebuild it myself!


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

An update.

I just got off the phone with the VW service manager. He told me the warranty company inspector came out and spent about a hour going over the motor, taking pictures, and asking the VW tech questions, etc.

The service manager played games with me for a minute (a nice guy, just yanking my chain) then eventually told me that the warranty company would be installing a new motor into the car and covering the entire cost of the rental car I have been using (and will be using till the motor is installed). I'll have to pay my $100 deductible and a couple hundred dollars in gaskets and misc. nuts and bolts not covered by the warranty. But otherwise it's fully covered.

Me and my girlfriend have been seriously sweating this for the past few days and had they not covered it we would have been in a very bad place financially. It's an enormous load off our shoulders.

I wish I could give more insight into what caused this failure but the VW tech is unable to produce an answer, the inspector couldn't, and me, my brother and my father (a retired mechanic of 40 years) couldn't call it anything other than a freak manufacturing or materials defect.

I asked if I could keep the motor but was told he engine is going to be packed up and sent back to Germany for tear down and inspection unless I wanted to pay a core charge.

I'm elated by this news, the rest of the car is immaculate and I feel like I'm essentially getting a new car. I think I'm going to take the service manager and his tech out to lunch because they really went above and beyond. The manager gave me a rental on his dime until the warranty company came through (if it ever came through) as well as he and his tech doing everything they could to ensure this was covered by my warranty. And provided me daily calls to let me know where we were at on this situation. Great service all around.:thumbup:

I'll let you guys know the dealer and the managers name as well as the warranty company after I get more details and I'm sure the gears are turning on this.


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## Michael W Dane (Feb 23, 2013)

glad things are working out!


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

These engines can be honed with success, but from the factory they are coated walls that do not require honing(according to VW). I have re-rings dozens of these engines for oil consumption and all we do is slap rings and reassemble. That's all VW wants us to do. 

As for the failure, it is quite common in TSI engines that were early-builds. They had weak valve springs and would often break those weak valve springs. It would be an easy rebuild to correct these engines as well(given they only need a valve and valve spring). But in most cases, VW has us install a whole new cylinder head on them too. It's just the way they do things with most issues. 

But good that you're getting a new engine. Is it a new OE engine from a crate or is the aftermarket warranty company supplying the engine? Usually what we see with most of these warranty companies is they get the engine from their source.......which is a national auto-salvage company. So I'd make sure you're getting a NEW OE engine if at all possible, and not just a used engine that is out of some junked car with an unknown history. 
J. Hines


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

Michael W Dane said:


> glad things are working out!


Thanks man, me too.



jhines_06gli said:


> These engines can be honed with success, but from the factory they are coated walls that do not require honing(according to VW). I have re-rings dozens of these engines for oil consumption and all we do is slap rings and reassemble. That's all VW wants us to do.
> 
> As for the failure, it is quite common in TSI engines that were early-builds. They had weak valve springs and would often break those weak valve springs. It would be an easy rebuild to correct these engines as well(given they only need a valve and valve spring). But in most cases, VW has us install a whole new cylinder head on them too. It's just the way they do things with most issues.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. It is an FSI motor, probably late '07-early '08 production.
The replacement is being ordered through VW and will be here Friday.:thumbup:


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

jhines_06gli said:


> I have re-rings dozens of these engines for oil consumption and all we do is slap rings and reassemble.


Are the rings the reason for the high oil consumption on these engines? If so has this issue been corrected and will the new motor I get no longer have the oil consumption problem?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

ultraperio said:


> Are the rings the reason for the high oil consumption on these engines? If so has this issue been corrected and will the new motor I get no longer have the oil consumption problem?


Direct-injections engines consume oil. It's just a matter of keeping a check on it and keeping it topped off. As for abnormal consumption, yes......the rings are usually what VW has us replace to correct the issue. As for new engines that are installed......the piston rings part number is the same, the manufacturer is the same and the engine is ultimately the same. So you still run the risk of abnormal consumption. But with care and the correct oil, you won't have issues. I have just over 190,000 miles on my 06 GLI and have not had abnormal consumption until lately. The quality of Castrol oil used in the dealer keeps going down and down. And this Winter, I started consuming more than normal, but it's due to oil quality. I keep a running check on my compression and it has been almost the same since early in the engine's life. So true maint. and upkeep will make the FSI last a long time. But I go overboard for the most part.....since the largest of jobs on this engine for most take me a very small fraction of the time since I do this daily.
J. Hines


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

Another update. 

My VW dealer gave me a 2013 Passat 2.5 (less than 900 miles) with navigation, sun roof, leather interior, etc. for the past two weeks on their dime without even knowing if the warranty company would cover any of it. AFAIK the warranty company was only contractually obligated to pay $40 a day for 4 days and a maximum of 6 days if we had to wait on their inspector. I had the car, which cost $50 something a day, for nearly two full weeks and didn't have to pay a dime towards it. :thumbup: 

I just picked the car up about 30 minutes ago. That's exactly 2 weeks give or take an hour since the motor blew. It drove great. Seemed a little jerky and 'tighter', but that could be just me being used to driving the slushbox passat for a few weeks. 

Grand total on the engine came out to be as follows: 
Labor........$2,700.00 
Parts.........$4,167.57 
G.O.G.......$24.50  
Misc chg....$280.00  
Misc disc....$-70.00 
Tax...........$335.37 
Total.........$7,437.44 

Of that I payed a grand total of $235.55 

For those that care the base engine (assumed to be a long block) was $3,925.99. I had thought it was a new engine but it was remanufactured by VW. Same difference as far as I'm concerned. 

The car runs great the little bit that I drove it just now. Not really going to get into it for a few thousand miles. They test drove it for 30 miles and said there were no problems. I'm about to make the same trip I made two weeks ago (that the car blew up in the middle of) and see how it goes but so far so great. 

Also the engine came with another 1 year 12,000 mile warranty. Hopefully I won't need it! 

Side note on the Passat. It's a nice enough car but I found myself missing the power of my GTI the minute I pulled out of the parking lot, it makes a decent amount of torque that seems to peak early and fall off quickly. I made the trip up to see my family and really hated the leather seats, it was like sitting on a board, I had to take my wallet out of my pocket for fear of tweaking my spine and lose sensation in my butt cheek. The GTI seats are more compliant but more supportive at the same time. Two days in I was really missing the suspension tuning of the GTI. Where the GTI corners flat and gives feedback the Passat is like riding on a big unresponsive floaty cloud and its steering was very imprecise. Not really what I prefer in a cars handling. But I guess it would be a decent enough car for a middle age couple with a few kids and a need for something practical. Despite it being a bigger car it got better gas mileage than my GTI (~27mpg highway in my GTI vs. ~31+mpg in the Passat) but I guess that's to be expected given the nature of the cars. 

Anyway, new(ish) engine, didn't bankrupt me, got to mess around in a brand new VW for a few weeks, and came out ahead by a hair (and a few hundred miles on my warranty). It went as well as it could have possibly went considering what happened. 

I want to thank Doron at City Volkswagen in San Diego for taking care of us and going above and beyond to make sure we had a car, we were informed on what was going on, and that our motor was covered under the warranty. Also want to thank the VW tech (didn't catch his name unfortunately) that answered my questions and took the time to go over the motor with me. A great experience and they made sure I will be coming back to City VW whenever I need something. 

Also a big thanks to Warranty Solutions (a subsidiary of Wells Fargo, not to be confused with "Genuine Warranty Solutions" or any of those other companys with similar names) for ponying up without a fight and holding up their end of the contract with minimal turbulence. We had some issues with one of the phone receptionists but the experience dealing with them was an overall positive and they really saved my butt financially. Boy am I glad I ponied up for that warranty two years ago.


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## ultraperio (Mar 6, 2013)

jhines_06gli said:


> Direct-injections engines consume oil. It's just a matter of keeping a check on it and keeping it topped off. As for abnormal consumption, yes......the rings are usually what VW has us replace to correct the issue. As for new engines that are installed......the piston rings part number is the same, the manufacturer is the same and the engine is ultimately the same. So you still run the risk of abnormal consumption. But with care and the correct oil, you won't have issues. I have just over 190,000 miles on my 06 GLI and have not had abnormal consumption until lately. The quality of Castrol oil used in the dealer keeps going down and down. And this Winter, I started consuming more than normal, but it's due to oil quality. I keep a running check on my compression and it has been almost the same since early in the engine's life. So true maint. and upkeep will make the FSI last a long time. But I go overboard for the most part.....since the largest of jobs on this engine for most take me a very small fraction of the time since I do this daily.
> J. Hines


 Cool, thanks for the info. 

A few more questions. 

I've always either gotten topped off at the dealership (presumably with the Castrol) or or bought the recommended Castrol oil from the dealership and kept a few quarts next to the spare tire (interestingly there's a cut out in the foam that perfectly fits two quarts of oil next to the spare). What do you recommend as far as oil goes for these engines? 

Also, what is the standard break in for these engines and what do you recommend as far as break in goes to maximized life and minimize oil consumption? How long/what type of break in? Or are they 'pre-broken' after they're built? 

I had asked the dealership about putting a new clutch in while the car was apart and if I could save some money if I had it done, they quoted me $2400 for the full job but would cut it down to $1200 because the car was already apart. I passed as that seemed like a lot and the clutch in the car was perfectly fine to begin with. In the future, if this clutch ever does go out what do you recomend as far as aftermarket clutches or are they even necessary. I've been thinking about going to a stage 2 tune since I got the car but never did, if I do in the future what is the best option as far as clutches go should the stocker give up the ghost? I've seen people that get away just swapping the disk on TSI motors and keeping the OEM pressure plate/flywheel for more torque capacity but a stock feel, but I haven't seen anything along these lines for the FSI. Is there a similar option for the FSI or is something like the full SBC kit the best way to go? Or is the stocker perfectly suitable for everything up to and including a stage 2 tune? 

Thanks for you time and knowledge J.Hines.:thumbup:


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## bryanviper (Nov 14, 2011)

Would also like to know what good quality oil would be better then the dealer castrol? If I use a better quality oil for example the German Castrol oil would that actually reduce consumption? 

Thanks


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## altxf4 (Apr 20, 2012)

Hi from CGN! I thought those pictures looked familiar when I saw them. Glad things worked out for you.


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## roland mk5 (Jun 3, 2013)

I got a 2008 MK5 GTI, same engine code BPY with 65000 miles. Light mods, billy boat exhaust, forge intake and forge intercooler, no chip. Always serviced religiously, and never abused on the road.

Driving on the freeway on Memorial day, CEL comes on flashing, car starts shaking violently. Had the car towed to the dealer, since my regular mechanic was out of town.

Exactly the same problem, a chunk of valve in Cylinder 2 broken off. Dealer has no clue, asks me what I did?

Basically quoted $2600 if they can fix the cylinder head and $5000 if they need to replace it.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanviper said:


> Would also like to know what good quality oil would be better then the dealer castrol? If I use a better quality oil for example the German Castrol oil would that actually reduce consumption?
> 
> Thanks


The popular oils between everyone that has actually done all their homework and had samplings done seems to be Motul, Liqui Moly and Rotella T6. 

I have just switched my car over from a life of Castrol at 190k miles. I chose to go through Liqui Moly after talking extensively with a few of their reps and some of their design guys. They have a new blend of 5W-40 full synthetic along with multiple additives that are specifically designed for direct-injection engines that have issues with using oil. I still am going to replace my chain tensioner and chains as the engine is quite old and from time to time it has a little rattle after a beating. But the engine is CLEAN!!! I've had whole top end apart and oil pan off and it's spotless. So can't say Castrol isn't a good oil, but it has a lot of detergents in it which I personally think promote more use and cause more to burn off.

If you want to talk with the Liqui Moly guys, you can call or they have an online chat that they offer. Very cool guys to talk with. I spoke for probably 30-45 minutes with them down at SoWo and bought some more oil from them at that time as well. And although it is not highly advertised, it can be ordered in through any NAPA auto parts as well as other parts distributors. Even though you never really see it(at least not here in NC).
J. Hines


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## miamiVdub (Dec 29, 2009)

'08 MKV

Just got through with the exact same problem. Valve broke off and screwed everything up.

VW Covering everything.

Hope this is setting a bit of a trend for people here


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## bryanviper (Nov 14, 2011)

Hmmm

I dont like Trends.... 

Were you guys Flashed? 
Type of oil used?
Kms?


Just trying to find out if anything was common that could possibly cause an issue like that.


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## miamiVdub (Dec 29, 2009)

Stock everything. Dealer maintenance record. Everything as it came. 47k + change on the dash

Only difference is here they couldnt find any damage below the head. I get to keep my old one. However, I still get the new 12 month 12k warranty on the engine.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

miamiVdub said:


> Stock everything. Dealer maintenance record. Everything as it came. 47k + change on the dash
> 
> Only difference is here they couldnt find any damage below the head. I get to keep my old one. However, I still get the new 12 month 12k warranty on the engine.


Dealer is paying for your core charge so you get to keep the engine? That's very nice of them. I try to get my hands on every engine that comes out of our cars, but they all have core fees. We've managed to get one 2.5l that had 200 miles on it. Other than that, the other ones all get called back as cores.


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## miamiVdub (Dec 29, 2009)

NO! Bad wording on my part. The rest of my old engine ("keeping it") is staying in the car, they are just replacing the damaged head, pistons, and valves.

Sorry dudes no core charity from VW.


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## Bo Toichi (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah VW!!!
Thanks for the
1. Bad fuel pump design
2. Bad cam follower design
3. Bad cam design (A cam)
4. Faulty fuel pressure sensors
5. Fuel injectors that go bad on a regular basis,usually way before 100K
6. Faulty coolant temp sensors
7. CV boots that crack before 70K miles
8. Poor design OG diverter valves
9. Engines,that when brand new,BURN a quart of oil in 1500 miles
10. Faulty PCV valves
11.STILL have not designed a good coil pack that will last
12.VALVES that just crumble or fall apart!!!!
13. Bad EVAP purge valves
14. Sometimes faulty PWM fuel pumps/modules
15. Buttons that the "soft touch" rubber just wears off and makes the interior look GHETTO
16. Headliners that fail in about 3-5 years and sag
17. bad valve tappets/lifters
18. PLASTIC oil filter housings that sometimes PINCH the G28 rpm sensor when changing oil sonce you put the sensor right next to the filter housing
19. DSG with faulty mech units!!
20. Faulty airbag/seat wiring harnesses
21. WORST design air filter housing EVER
22. Faulty intake flapper motors
23. Carbon buildup "designed in"
24. Passats 2.0 with downpipes that just crack/split in 1/2 at the turbo flange when a car shakes from mis-firing due to a faulty injector/coil pack
25. Thermostats that go bad and cost a lot to change
Other than those small annoyances.....YOU MAKE A GREAT CAR VW/Audi!!!!:facepalm:


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Problem with your list is you are taking every problem ever reported and making it seem as though they are common. I am at 140k miles and have had a few of these issues (and more than I should have) but I wouldn't tell anyone buying one of these cars that having all of these problems is likely.


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## Bo Toichi (Jan 15, 2013)

If you have not had atleast 2-4 of those things listed happen to your car you are lucky or a liar.:laugh:


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## 08GraniteGreenPassat (May 16, 2009)

Bo Toichi said:


> If you have not had atleast 2-4 of those things listed happen to your car you are lucky or a liar.:laugh:


 So sad!... True, but sad.


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