# TT-RS oil temps on track - extra oil cooler needed?w



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

*TT-RS oil temps on track - extra oil cooler needed?*

Hi, wanted to see if the TT-RS has any issues with oil temps on hot days at the track or aggressive road word? INA has an oil cooler kit available and I am going to taking off the front end of my car in the next couple of months to install an intercooler. While I have access, it thought it would be good to take care of an oil cooler also. if one is needed for HD/hot track days.

Thank you


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

never had any issues running in summer (2-years worth) in Fort Worth. Sessions are 20 minutes in duration. Just keep the hood open between sessions.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

LongviewTx said:


> never had any issues running in summer (2-years worth) in Fort Worth. Sessions are 20 minutes in duration. Just keep the hood open between sessions.


Same here. Stock oil cooler seems to do its job.


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## sentari (Dec 4, 2011)

But are there any disadvantages of putting in a oil cooler? I'm doing and figured no, but i assume in colder weather the warm up time is higher... So other then some cost it appears to be ok...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

sentari said:


> But are there any disadvantages of putting in a oil cooler? I'm doing and figured no, but i assume in colder weather the warm up time is higher... So other then some cost it appears to be ok...


Excessive warm-up time on the street is probably the only concern. That's part of the job of the stock coolant / oil exchange unit: it heats the oil when the coolant warms up first, and cools the oil when the oil temps get higher than the coolant temp under hard use.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

You lot must be babying your cars... Even shifting at 6000rpm (have a tune issue), I had to back out of it after seeing temps rise to 120deg C after 3 hard laps yesterday. Two very long straights though (220kph on one and 180 on the other).


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

If you throw a thermostat in there you can probably solve the warm up issues


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

The main issue with oil temps is that at higher temps they start to thin out and break down more quickly. If the oil is reaching 120 degrees that might be ok, could consult with the oil manufacturer at which point they might be concerned and ask you to change to a different spec of oil.

Alternatively use Motorsport oil and just change it more often


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

the most i ever hit was 128C while going 190mph for a 2-3 mins


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

265F track on a hot 90+F day . 245F cool track day 70s F , 208-212 normal 80mph


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

On the track in Houston during August I hit 265 on every 20 minute session. I also noticed that temps dropped back down to sub 230 during my two cool down laps. I was happy the temps decreased so quickly, but I was a bit concerned by the peak temps. So I spent a little time researching issues surrounding high oil temps. From what I read it seems that 265 is perfectly fine for a synthetic oil for short periods of time. Even if the car was tracked every weekend, the temps would not drastically affect the life span of the oil. 

In terms of relative risk I would say that it is more important to be vigilant about keeping your oil topped off as opposed to cooler.


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

What oil are you guys using? I haven't had a chance to run anything other than the Audi oil for one one lapping day last year. Has anyone done an oil analysis after tracking the car with different oils?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

CarbonRS said:


> What oil are you guys using? I haven't had a chance to run anything other than the Audi oil for one one lapping day last year. Has anyone done an oil analysis after tracking the car with different oils?


I'm using Castrol Syntec Euro formula which is a 0-30 oil. I've been doing oil analysis with every oil change since I got the car. This change was a short interval with just 1400 miles on the oil between changes. Right in the middle was a track day where I did about 130 miles on track, six 20 minute sessions. I think I was seeing peak oil temps in the 240s with very quick recovery back down below 220 during cooldown.

The data looks very similar to the previous change which was a full 5k mile interval.


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Good info John, thanks for posting that. Is there a reason you are using a lighter oil? I was thinking somewhere around 0W40 to 10w40 would be good with the higher temps, but your 0w30 seemed to hold up well.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

CarbonRS said:


> Good info John, thanks for posting that. Is there a reason you are using a lighter oil? I was thinking somewhere around 0W40 to 10w40 would be good with the higher temps, but your 0w30 seemed to hold up well.


There is a ton of info on this oil, also known as GC for German Castrol, on BITOG(Bob Is The Oil Guy) but basically at operating temps it behaves more like a 0-40 and not a 30 weight. It is very good oil and you can usually find it at Autozone for decent prices too.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=718643


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

That is a thin oil considering you live in a hot climate.

I ran 5w30 stock, castrol edge, moved up to 5w-40 for a short period, then we decided to run 10w50 race oil with the stage 3 kit.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Poverty said:


> That is a thin oil considering you live in a hot climate.
> 
> I ran 5w30 stock, castrol edge, moved up to 5w-40 for a short period, then we decided to run 10w50 race oil with the stage 3 kit.


It's rated as a -30 but behaves much more like a -40 weight oil. There's quite a lot of research and documentation on BITOG about this stuff, specifically related to use in Audi TSI engines. Are there any 10w50 oils that meet VW/Audi oil specs? I didn't think the 10w60 or whatever it is for the R8 was approved for use in the 2.5T.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

That GC UOA is great and it's hard to argue with the results, IMO. :thumbup: If you had an oil pressure gauge, and saw a problem with op, then one could say that you need a thicker oil.

Just a little bit of shear there since it starts at 12.2 cSt's at 100C, but it wouldn't be unusual for a light 5W-40 to shear down to a 30 grade anyway. Thinner oils also run a bit cooler than thicker oils as well. BTW, GC is now being made in Belgium.  

-Dennis


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Dennis M said:


> That GC UOA is great and it's hard to argue with the results, IMO. :thumbup: If you had an oil pressure gauge, and saw a problem with op, then one could say that you need a thicker oil.
> 
> Just a little bit of shear there since it starts at 12.2 cSt's at 100C, but it wouldn't be unusual for a light 5W-40 to shear down to a 30 grade anyway. Thinner oils also run a bit cooler than thicker oils as well. BTW, GC is now being made in Belgium.
> 
> -Dennis


Thanks! Nice to have a second opinion on this stuff. Do you know when they started production in Belgium? The last batch I picked up at Autozone is still marked Made in Germany. Wondering if I should stock up.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Thanks! Nice to have a second opinion on this stuff. Do you know when they started production in Belgium? The last batch I picked up at Autozone is still marked Made in Germany. Wondering if I should stock up.


Not sure when production changed, and new bottles are just starting to pop up, but I wouldn't worry about stocking up since the oils meet the same specs. There are still a few crazy out folks out there with some of the original Green GC which is now at least 10 years old, but that's a bit much. :screwy: Although, some people put up a lot of money to have the original version put through some amazing tests to verify the base stocks and quality.

-Dennis


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

So is there anything close to a race oil that also is on the approved list for the TTRS? I've been cross referencing the list while checking out the usual oils I'd use, but nothing is approved. Anyone have some suggestions?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

CarbonRS said:


> So is there anything close to a race oil that also is on the approved list for the TTRS? I've been cross referencing the list while checking out the usual oils I'd use, but nothing is approved. Anyone have some suggestions?


Any reason why the specified oils aren't sufficient? I guess you could check with Istook Racing and see what they're running in their TTRS.

http://www.istooks.com/


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I'm using Castrol Syntec Euro formula which is a 0-30 oil. I've been doing oil analysis with every oil change since I got the car. This change was a short interval with just 1400 miles on the oil between changes. Right in the middle was a track day where I did about 130 miles on track, six 20 minute sessions. I think I was seeing peak oil temps in the 240s with very quick recovery back down below 220 during cooldown.
> 
> The data looks very similar to the previous change which was a full 5k mile interval.


What's the exact Castrol Syntec oil you're using? Last time I checked, I didn't see any of the Castrol Syntecs at the big auto parts stores that met the VW 507 spec (or whichever it was).


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> What's the exact Castrol Syntec oil you're using? Last time I checked, I didn't see any of the Castrol Syntecs at the big auto parts stores that met the VW 507 spec (or whichever it was).


Castrol Syntec European Formula is available at Autozone. It's on the approved list for Audi/VW 502.00 oils which is I believe what the TTRS requires. Isn't the 507.00 spec for diesels?


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Any reason why the specified oils aren't sufficient? I guess you could check with Istook Racing and see what they're running in their TTRS.
> 
> http://www.istooks.com/


Just like most things, it isn't that they aren't sufficient, I'm sure any of the approved oils would be fine. In the summer I run the oil for a few events then change it. There isn't a need for a long life oil. All it needs is a lot of anti wear additives and resistance to viscosity loss at high temperature. This also is probably why they don't list anything close to a race oil because it wouldn't have a 15k mile detergent package. Anyway, there must be a good compromise. Right now I'm thinking I'll let Audi change the oil at their mileage intervals to keep a clean service record and just do the oil changes in the summer myself.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

CarbonRS said:


> Just like most things, it isn't that they aren't sufficient, I'm sure any of the approved oils would be fine. In the summer I run the oil for a few events then change it. There isn't a need for a long life oil. All it needs is a lot of anti wear additives and resistance to viscosity loss at high temperature. This also is probably why they don't list anything close to a race oil because it wouldn't have a 15k mile detergent package. Anyway, there must be a good compromise. Right now I'm thinking I'll let Audi change the oil at their mileage intervals to keep a clean service record and just do the oil changes in the summer myself.


Start reading BITOG 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks for all of the replies. Sounds like TT-RS is pretty easy on oil, considering it takes extended track driving to reach 265deg by everyone's reports. I had a 2009 AMG C63 which would hit 265deg just playing around on some 2nd-3rd gear back roads. No wonder the top end of that motor likes to eat valve buckets! I can see people putting cheap oil in an out of warranty MB and quickly causing engine damage if they go by the extended drain intervals.

As long as the timing chain doesn't turn out to be problematic, it really looks like the Audi 2.5L TFSI engine is going to go down as a very reliable power plant (knocking on wood...).

For a street car, on oil cooler would definitely need a thermostat. At that, I am not sure about giving up the factor oil warmer on cold engine start ups. More time with cold oil = more wear on the engine.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Castrol Syntec European Formula is available at Autozone. It's on the approved list for Audi/VW 502.00 oils which is I believe what the TTRS requires. Isn't the 507.00 spec for diesels?


Ah, good call. Checked the manual, and it indeed references 502.00 as the requirement.


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## 1QWIKWHP (Oct 19, 2012)

CarbonRS said:


> What oil are you guys using? I haven't had a chance to run anything other than the Audi oil for one one lapping day last year. Has anyone done an oil analysis after tracking the car with different oils?


Just a question for all.. I use Mobil1 synthetic euro formula OW-40 it's got the 502/505 rating and I can pick it up at Walmart for under 8.00 qt. I don't track the car but do drive it "enthusiastically", I think I should be ok. Any of you guys use this brand and grade.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

1QWIKWHP said:


> Just a question for all.. I use Mobil1 synthetic euro formula OW-40 it's got the 502/505 rating and I can pick it up at Walmart for under 8.00 qt. I don't track the car but do drive it "enthusiastically", I think I should be ok. Any of you guys use this brand and grade.


That is what I use between dealer oil changes (I purchased Audi Care, so might as well use it to have the vehicle records show up with all maintenance complete.)

Mobil 1 0w-40 is a well respected oil on Bob Is the Oil Guy. It is has the highest ppm of zinc out of Mobil's non-race oils (one other Mobil oil may match it). It meets all the right specs, reasonably priced, and has wide availability in the US. I spent quite a lot of time comparing oils and just couldn't find a reason to switch from Mobil 1 0w-40 to any of the Euro brand oils.

If someone does have some data showing that it isn't a "good" oil for the TT-RS, I would love to see it. Yes, there are other oils that are "just as good", but I haven't found a compelling reason to switch to a different brand/weight.

The only possible reason to not use it would be if you want to run a low SAPS oil. A few people have theorized that the low SAPS oils help reduce valve deposits on VAG FSI/TSI engines. Low SAPS oils have been much more common in Europe vs the US due to the differences in gas formulations and emissions regulations. I personally think that we just don't drive the cars hard enough on a regular basis like people can do in Europe. Per Audi, 20 minutes above 3000rpm will clean the valves from the EGTs and valve temps.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

JohnLZ7W said:


> It's rated as a -30 but behaves much more like a -40 weight oil. There's quite a lot of research and documentation on BITOG about this stuff, specifically related to use in Audi TSI engines. Are there any 10w50 oils that meet VW/Audi oil specs? I didn't think the 10w60 or whatever it is for the R8 was approved for use in the 2.5T.


502 and 507 oil is minimum recommended spec of oil for the engines.

Race oils surpass these specs but just haven't gone through the accreditation for VAG. It doesn't matter to me that my oil isn't 507 spec anymore as the only reason I would adhere to that was with a engine that's in warranty.

Now that my warranty is gone I can use better oils.

Currently I'm on millers nano tech race oil.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Poverty said:


> 502 and 507 oil is minimum recommended spec of oil for the engines.
> 
> Race oils surpass these specs but just haven't gone through the accreditation for VAG. It doesn't matter to me that my oil isn't 507 spec anymore as the only reason I would adhere to that was with a engine that's in warranty.
> 
> ...


I occasionally run 300V in my Forester turbo, but not sure I would consider any race oil as being "better" than an oil that meets ACEA A3/B3, VW502/505, Porsche A40, MB229.3/5, and BMW LL01. Yes, race oils have a more robust additive package, and will usually have better friction modification (probably more suited for your application), but I very seriously doubt any race oil could meet these Euro specs. 

-Dennis


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Dennis M said:


> I occasionally run 300V in my Forester turbo, but not sure I would consider any race oil as being "better" than an oil that meets ACEA A3/B3, VW502/505, Porsche A40, MB229.3/5, and BMW LL01. Yes, race oils have a more robust additive package, and will usually have better friction modification (probably more suited for your application), but I very seriously doubt any race oil could meet these Euro specs.
> 
> -Dennis


Hi, this is the info I have from race engine builders and a query to motul themselves.





the 504 as it is a just a minimum requirement for oil and when quantum semi synthetic can meet it.....that proves how worthless the rating is.

Regarding specifically motul:

8100 Range / Specific Range are based on OEM's approvals for standard applications. Products specifications are for example offering a certain level of fuel economy, reduced C02 emissions, extended drain interval (up to 50000 km)... and allows full manufacturer warranty. 

The 300V Motorsportline range is developed following 2 main rules : 
- How to get the best power output of an engine and how to get the best reliability of it. 

So 300V Motorsportline can be used in road cars for increased engine performance and protection with 10000 km drain interval. In case of 
mechanical issues no warranty will apply. 
For track days this is the right product . It will handle much higher temperature and will provide stable oil pressure. 

BR
Joseph Charlot 
MOTUL Technical Manager


So in our cases of more frequent oil changes, I think everyone would benefit from a race oil on their tuned motor. Better protection, more HP, but just needs changing more frequently.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Poverty said:


> Hi, this is the info I have from race engine builders and a query to motul themselves.
> 
> 
> SNIP...
> ...


I wouldn't say "everyone"... anyone concerned about Audi paying for warranty work on their engine should run an oil which meets the VAG specs called for in the owner's manual for their specific country. Anything else that doesn't meet the correct VAG oil specs (502/505 for US cars) for the TT-RS could lead to Audi denying a warranty claim for any engine components (or the entire engine).

The 300v Motul line of oils more than likely does provide better engine protection under high load conditions, if changed on a more frequent interval than Audi's 10k mile schedule. I am only calling out possible warranty implications.

One issue with VAG oil specs is whether the car is operated in Europe, USA, or some other area. For the USA, most gasoline is mixed with up to 10% ethanol which has been reported/theorized to cause issues with low-SAPS oils.

The Audi Fluid Capacity chart for 2012 year models in the US lists 502.00 as the correct oil spec for the TT-RS http://www.1stcallhosting.com/tech/audi/view.php?sess=0&parent=1921&expand=1&order=name&curview=0&action=pdf_show&id=607&currentdb=0


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

If you read above I already agreed with that sentiment in regards to engines in warranty!


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

hightechrdn said:


> The Audi Fluid Capacity chart for 2012 year models in the US lists 502.00 as the correct oil spec for the TT-RS http://www.1stcallhosting.com/tech/audi/view.php?sess=0&parent=1921&expand=1&order=name&curview=0&action=pdf_show&id=607&currentdb=0


Good find! I've been looking for a fluid capacity sheet.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Poverty said:


> If you read above I already agreed with that sentiment in regards to engines in warranty!


Sorry, I didn't see that post. I wasn't out to attack you. However, I didn't want someone reading this thread to go out and use a "race" oil, then expect Audi to cover engine warranty claims.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

carl44 said:


> 265F track on a hot 90+F day . 245F cool track day 70s F , 208-212 normal 80mph


This has been my experience as well. Yesterday at The Ridge Motorsports Park at close to 100°F ambient temps I was hitting 270°F regularly after 20 mins of hot lapping and on the last session saw 273°F. Coolant temps stayed in the 230-240°F range; and a cool down lap brought temps down to under 250 quickly. Starting to think about potential options to keep oil temps in the 250°F area on hot days like yesterday. Today is expected to be in the mid to high 90°'s as well.

I used to be in the high 250°s and low 260°s on stock tune (~18psi boost); running 20psi boost on a UM flash for first time on track yesterday. My guess is the higher boost is likely heating up the turbo, making more power and hence the oil gets up a bit higher.


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