# 9A pistons in ABA block?



## 97 jetta(x2) (Dec 17, 2008)

I have heard that you can put 9A pistons in the standard 8 valve ABA block and get some sick and twisted compression out of it. Has anone done this? What is needed to get this done? I know the wrist pins are different sizes so that means boring out either the piston or rods. Anyone know wich is safer? This is a project for my race car so don't worry about drivability.


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## salz2135 (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: 9A pistons in ABA block? (97 jetta(x2))*

the crazy sick compression would be around 12:1. 9a pistons will sit further below the deck at TDC and the pins on the ABA are 21mm vs the 20mm 9A pins.


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## 97 jetta(x2) (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: 9A pistons in ABA block? (salz2135)*

Yeah thats what I have heard however I have also been told you can ballance out the compression with two head gaskets instead of one. Sound plausable?


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## salz2135 (Sep 18, 2006)

What are your reasons for wanting to go with 9a pistons over an aftermarket part? If it's simply a matter of cost, I would rather spend money on aftermarket high compression forged pistons, or even stay with stock ABA pistons and use money towards wild head work (maybe you already have this done). 
Stacking head gaskets will reduce the compression, but you move the compression height even further from the deck.
Not trying to dissuade you, since I have no first hand experience with the setup you want to attempt.


_Modified by salz2135 at 12:08 PM 12-18-2008_


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## stntman (Sep 19, 2002)

*Re: (salz2135)*

in the NA tech forum people are talking about a high compression head gasket that is available. and if you have some head work done have them deck the head a little like .004" I think and youll up your compression to within pump gas regions


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## 97 jetta(x2) (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: (stntman)*

Well no head work done so far and I would have to pay somone for that. I have the pistons and I can install them myself so yes as a cheap race car it is a cost issue. As far as getting some bushings for the pins that seems simple enough. And if two head gaskets will work then that seems like it would also pull the compression back to "not blow up" levels. Just out of curiosity who makes the high comp pistons and how much?


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## Das Kraut (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: (97 jetta(x2))*

Don't stack headgaskets.....


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 9A pistons in ABA block? (97 jetta(x2))*

What compression ratio are you trying to achieve? Personally, I don't like the idea of 9A pistons in an ABA block, you shouldn't bore out the piston for larger pins so instead you'd need to replace the bushings in the small end of the rods to match the 9A pins. I've had a few bad experiences when I've sent rods out to be worked on so I'm a little gun shy in that regard.
Besides, the extra space between the head and piston messes up the squish/quench area so if you're looking for a moderate increase in CR let's say 11:1 or so, you're far better off shaving the head instead, it's easier, cheaper and less prone to **** up.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

_Quote »_Don't stack headgaskets.....

Why?


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (GoingUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoingUp* »_
Why?

They WILL leak.


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## 97 GTI 10990 (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: (GoingUp)*

head gaskets are already a weak point, you dont want to add to it.........as stated above they will leak.......arp makes head spacers i think...i have no personal experiance with doing this but from what ive heard and my general knowledge its probably not a good idea to stack them.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

_Quote »_They WILL leak. 

There's plenty of FI guys who do it, my ABA-T has them too, people make 300whp on stacked gaskets with ARP head studs...


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (GoingUp)*

great way to put a timer on a grenade. It's going to fail. Thats like butting a bandaid on a bulletwound. 
I also don't think your boosting anything past 8psi either.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

No because mine isn't even running yet, when it does it will be 7psi to start, then 10psi after I get a bit of base tuning, then 15-20 when I get MS running spark (megasquirt). There's a local guy here who ran 20psi on stacked gaskets on a hillclimb car, motor's been running strong for several years now. Have you ever done it? You know anyone who has had bad results? Hell, my friend got a running ABA and when he pulled the head there were 3 hg's in there. Again, it was running when he pulled the head.


_Modified by GoingUp at 11:29 PM 1-13-2009_


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (GoingUp)*

I would never do it. I have seen the aftermath. Do you know what happens to valves when a FI motor loses a headgasket and pumps coolant into the Combustion chamber? 
You'll learn, the hard way. Yo try anything over 8psi on stacked gaskets and you'll be wishing you were smarter when you sourcing a new top end. 
20 psi on stacked gaskets is BS. He's just telling you that so you'll try it and blow your motor up. Hell I would too, those are always funny stories to tell at 0hte next race event. "I told this here moron it's ok to stack gaskets and he was nutswinging so hard he actually tied it on 8psi HAHAHAHA. Popped the head clean off the studs."


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_
20 psi on stacked gaskets is BS. He's just telling you that so you'll try it and blow your motor up. Hell I would too, those are always funny stories to tell at 0hte next race event. "I told this here moron it's ok to stack gaskets and he was nutswinging so hard he actually tied it on 8psi HAHAHAHA. Popped the head clean off the studs." 

how about 15-18psi? I witnessed a car do it for an entire season of drag racing. I'll agree it's not the smartest thing to do but saying that it will instantly blow out and kill everyone in a 30 block radius is going a bit far.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

You guys are funny.
Stacking gaskets is fine, the ABA one is basically a steel plate with sealing shims anyway.
Been there, done that, had a lot of success, moved on to other things.
Do you know what happens to a car with a ****ty tune and stacked gaskets? When it pops, the gaskets get blamed and the chip gets put into the next car because the owner is too cheap to tune it properly. For the record, I made 191whp and 189ft/lbs on stacked gaskets, with 11 psi...for two years. Then I used the bottom end to build an ABA16vT, which obviously didn't need to stack'em, but the bottom end was spotless before I slapped the 16v head on.
"I've seen" is a poor substitute to "I've done".


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

I've seen the aftermath when the customer comes in and I am stuck trying to rebuild it. 
I've built boosted motors before, as well as big blocks on the sqeeze. 
I've tuned injected motors and multi carb setups. I've boosted Rotary's and Small block mopars. 
You want ot make big power in a high reving engine, you just don't stack headgaskets. 
No reputable/race winning engine builder will EVER Stack gaskets. That's Backyard mickey mouse sh!t. 
Build the motor correctly, CC the heads, and design your own combustion chamber, Hell machine your pistons down if you have to. Don't stack headgaskets.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (cetanepusher)*

Again, "I've seen" is a poor substitute to "I've done".
Since I doubt your shop ever stacked a gasket, going by the eliteness you're posting, how can you say that it's a bad idea? Nine times out of ten, if you have to take your car to a shop, you can't do the work yourself. This could point to the fact that they tried to do it themselves, and didn't do it right. Doesn't have to have anything to do with the gaskets, like I said it could be the tune, a ghetto FPR setup, etc etc etc.
Realistically, would you spend the money shaving pistons and redesigning combustion chambers for a 200whp goal?


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

Yep, I made 162 to the crank on this: 








I actually decked the head, ported the runners, and machined my valve pockets. Motor runs at 11.5:1 on the street running 91octane pump gas. 
I will admit I could make a bit more power with a new Vane intake sensor for the digi II its now running on, but i'll get there eventually.
I've worked with Innovative and turbonetics engineers before, you DONT stack headgaskets if you want to make power. 
If your happy your making 200 on an 8V with a turbo, your setup and tuning is garbage anyway. You should be in the 230+ range with a huffer on a 2.0L 8v, and around 300 with 16. 
Seriously folks, stacking headgaskets is a stupid idea. No matter what con you try and tell me, no major tuning company stacks gaskets, at the worst they will use machined head spacers, and even then they advise you just get the right pistons.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (cetanepusher)*

I agree with all of the guys concerning stacking head gaskets, bad idea. I've done something similar before but only because it was Friday afternoon and I needed to have the engine together for Saturday's races. We disassembled two metal ABA head gaskets reassembled one of them with extra shims scavenged from the other gasket. It worked okay but we only ran like that a couple weekends before we got the engine put together properly. BTW, this was a 13:1 NA engine making about 180hp at the crank.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_Yep, I made 162 to the crank on this: 










oooooh pretty







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Mines going to look alot like this, except the carbs will be hanging off the front side.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote »_20 psi on stacked gaskets is BS. He's just telling you that so you'll try it and blow your motor up. Hell I would too, those are always funny stories to tell at 0hte next race event. "I told this here moron it's ok to stack gaskets and he was nutswinging so hard he actually tied it on 8psi HAHAHAHA. Popped the head clean off the studs." 

Yeah, okay.







In my experience, people who are into cars on a grassroots scale are more than happy to share their setups and usually aren't elite douches trying to blow up other people's cars, but apparently there is at least one... I'm not claiming that it's the best solution, certainly it isn't a substitute for forged pistons or a similarly expensive setup, but the fact is that there are plenty of people running it with success. With dyno time and somewhat conservative tuning I'm not at all worried about it. Also, how would I pop the head off ARP studs? I think I'd need a bit more than 20psi to do that







Finally, figure I destroy this motor as a result of the gaskets, oh no, I'm out $100 for a new ABA, oh, wait, there's another sitting in my shed I got for free... The plan is eventually to push this motor until something blows/melts anyways, I'll let you know when I hit 20psi


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (GoingUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoingUp* »_
Yeah, okay.







In my experience, people who are into cars on a grassroots scale are more than happy to share their setups and usually aren't elite douches trying to blow up other people's cars, but apparently there is at least one... I'm not claiming that it's the best solution, certainly it isn't a substitute for forged pistons or a similarly expensive setup, but the fact is that there are plenty of people running it with success. With dyno time and somewhat conservative tuning I'm not at all worried about it. Also, how would I pop the head off ARP studs? I think I'd need a bit more than 20psi to do that







Finally, figure I destroy this motor as a result of the gaskets, oh no, I'm out $100 for a new ABA, oh, wait, there's another sitting in my shed I got for free... The plan is eventually to push this motor until something blows/melts anyways, I'll let you know when I hit 20psi









Your right, most shadtree guys are not going to tell you stuff that will lead to a malfunction. I wouldn't either. 
My point here is stacking headgaskets is the incorrect way to make power. It's just wrong. For a streetcar seeing very mild boost, it may last a long time. Doesn't mean its the right way to do it. 
If your a amateur mechanic, have access to a dremel and a sheet of plexiglass and plumbers putty, and a good graduated cylinder, you can machine enough volume from a piston top or a combustion chamber to drop your Comp Ratio enough to avoid stacking gaskets. Hell if the piston is domed, you can leave it in the bore, and measure the metal you need to remove that way. High school science class and Shop combined....
It's almost free to do.... Definetely cheaper than buying mulitple headgaskets. It's simple math and simple tools. All you need is 3/4 a brain.


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## redpig (Mar 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (cetanepusher)*



cetanepusher said:


> Yep, I made 162 to the crank on this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (redpig)*

supersprint.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_

If your a amateur mechanic, have access to a dremel and a sheet of plexiglass and plumbers putty, and a good graduated cylinder, you can *machine enough volume from a piston top *or a combustion chamber to drop your Comp Ratio enough to avoid stacking gaskets. Hell if the piston is domed, you can leave it in the bore, and measure the metal you need to remove that way. High school science class and Shop combined....


I'm kinda surprised more people haven't tried this with the original subject at hand. Just the other night I was bored and sawed a 9a piston up and there is enough meat in it where you could shave it down a few thousands to bring the comp ratio down.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_
Your right, most shadtree guys are not going to tell you stuff that will lead to a malfunction. I wouldn't either. 
My point here is stacking headgaskets is the incorrect way to make power. It's just wrong. For a streetcar seeing very mild boost, it may last a long time. Doesn't mean its the right way to do it. 
If your a amateur mechanic, have access to a dremel and a sheet of plexiglass and plumbers putty, and a good graduated cylinder, you can machine enough volume from a piston top or a combustion chamber to drop your Comp Ratio enough to avoid stacking gaskets. Hell if the piston is domed, you can leave it in the bore, and measure the metal you need to remove that way. High school science class and Shop combined....
It's almost free to do.... Definetely cheaper than buying mulitple headgaskets. It's simple math and simple tools. All you need is 3/4 a brain. 

So stacking head gaskets is bad, but taking a dremel to your pistons is ok?!
Dude, get off your high horse. 90% of the people out there building a car with stacked gaskets are on their first setups, and just want a bit more oomph. My own experience with stacking gave me a great setup to cut my teeth on, and more than enough power in a FWD car. 191whp at 11psi on a stack setup (91 octane) was trouble-free for many years for me, and that's the point I'm trying to make here, so unbunch your panties and just deal with it. A gasket stack will hold more than moderate boost for a long time, if you aren't at WOT constantly. 
Sometimes, you don't need maximum power ALL the time. I run dual carbs, on a MkIII CL cam...which amounts to maybe 75whp. Seems like a lot of effort doesn't it...yet, I love driving the car, and get 32mpg. Grow up a little bit and you'll see what I mean







.


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
So stacking head gaskets is bad, but taking a dremel to your pistons is ok?!
Dude, get off your high horse. 90% of the people out there building a car with stacked gaskets are on their first setups, and just want a bit more oomph. My own experience with stacking gave me a great setup to cut my teeth on, and more than enough power in a FWD car. 191whp at 11psi on a stack setup (91 octane) was trouble-free for many years for me, and that's the point I'm trying to make here, so unbunch your panties and just deal with it. A gasket stack will hold more than moderate boost for a long time, if you aren't at WOT constantly. 
Sometimes, you don't need maximum power ALL the time. I run dual carbs, on a MkIII CL cam...which amounts to maybe 75whp. Seems like a lot of effort doesn't it...yet, I love driving the car, and get 32mpg. Grow up a little bit and you'll see what I mean







.

Taking a dremel to your pistons is the same as turning them in a lathe, just not as accurate. How do you think they get balanced? JE Wiseco, Arias, ETC. take a dremel to them when they shave them to balance the sets before they ship out. 
You really have no idea. I would hate to see your car, it's probably a hacked piece of crap.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_
Taking a dremel to your pistons is the same as turning them in a lathe, just not as accurate. How do you think they get balanced? JE Wiseco, Arias, ETC. take a dremel to them when they shave them to balance the sets before they ship out. 
You really have no idea. I would hate to see your car, it's probably a hacked piece of crap. 

Ha, yeah, you got me there. Certainly isn't worth looking at, let alone driving. Definitely nowhere near as awesome as your car surely is. 








Do you honestly think that someone who can't stack gaskets will do much better with a dremel?
It's all about the right tool for the job/goals. 

_Modified by B4S at 2:19 PM 1-16-2009_


_Modified by B4S at 2:19 PM 1-16-2009_


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (B4S)*

This is where you get pissed.


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_You really have no idea. I would hate to see your car, it's probably a hacked piece of crap. 

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you need to **** all over them and their projects http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif You'll find that people will take you much more seriously if you are reasonable and back your points with reasoning instead of just bashing.
Edit: Your car looks nice, you do all the work yourself? What do you have in it for a motor?


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (GoingUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoingUp* »_
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you need to **** all over them and their projects http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif You'll find that people will take you much more seriously if you are reasonable and back your points with reasoning instead of just bashing.
Edit: Your car looks nice, you do all the work yourself? What do you have in it for a motor?

Yeah your right, I was a little agitated, because he is just wrong on so many levels. He shouldn't be advising anyone to stck gaskets. 
The MKII has had everything done by myself. I built the motor installed the suspension TiG welded up the lower control arms for stiffness, painted it, everything. 
It's for sale, I do have a thread on here for it.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_This is where you get pissed. 









Why would I get pissed? It's a pic of a nice car. Perhaps you have a ****-waving issue, and a need to constantly one-up someone...but I clearly don't.
As for being 'wrong'...dude, what is up your butt anyway? There is more here than you're letting on, because if you can't accept someone else's experiences and opinions, then it's definitely going to hold you back in life. You sound like a failed business owner or something.


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (B4S)*

Your wrong and giving out bad tuning advise, but yet you insist that your not. 
It's like someone coming on here and insisting 1+1=3. 
Your not going to convince anyone, other than an idiot that shouldn't be modifing anything anyways. Give it a rest.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (cetanepusher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cetanepusher* »_Your wrong and giving out bad tuning advise, but yet you insist that your not. 
It's like someone coming on here and insisting 1+1=3. 
Your not going to convince anyone, other than an idiot that shouldn't be modifing anything anyways. Give it a rest. 

Why don't you give it a rest already dude.









and it's you're no your.


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## Das Kraut (Nov 7, 2008)

*Satan Pusher*

I started the don't stack gaskets argument. Its not about winning an argument, there are no reputable builders who stack gaskets, stacking shims is one thing. 
Just because stacking works doesn't mean it works for everybody, you can run FI motors without an intercooler doesn't mean its a great solution however. 
To the dude stacking, you and Satan Pusher have two large egos, keep stacking I think eventually you will find this is mickey mouse to some people, if it works, congrats, personally I have blown two motors stacking and will never EVER do it again, that's just my personal experience, building motors since with math has worked for me so far.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

All I've said is use the best tool for the job, and if 200whp is your goal, 20 hours with a dremel and your pistons isn't worth it. My ego is no bigger than anyone's, in fact, cetanepusher seems to have a bigger one than me, because he seems to think his word is that of God.
I've stacked gaskets, I've built single-gasket low comp motors, and had great success with both. It's fine to have opinions about something, but to bust a gasket over a debate on the internet and start slagging everyone with a differing view, is just immature and to be honest...retarded.


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## Das Kraut (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_It's fine to have opinions about something, but to bust a gasket over a debate on the internet and start slagging everyone with a differing view, is just immature and to be honest...retarded.


That's exactly what you have been doing in your previous posts.....when keepin it real goes wrong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GoingUp (Oct 14, 2006)

I think everyone just got a little hot headed, it's one solution, maybe not the best but I don't think anyone is claiming it's the be all and end all of tuning. 
For refrence:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4200026


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Das Kraut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Das Kraut* »_

That's exactly what you have been doing in your previous posts.....when keepin it real goes wrong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Maybe not 100% true, but I can accept that. I didn't resort to name calling, or car slagging though







.


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

I did, And I shouldn't have. 
However, stacking gaskets is bad, umkay. 
The are better methods to achieveing the same goal. The best being to learn gooder math, and ordering the correct parts.


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## 97 GTI 10990 (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (cetanepusher)*

after all this arguing.......simply dont stack em...anything thats this confrontational just dont do it.......similar to heroin people argue whether its good or bad therefore its confrontational therefore i dont do it...... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
so i just went and re read the original post and got real confused....you want to raise the CR with 9a pistons and then you want to bring it back down with two head gaskets....ummmmm why?????? i simply dont understand..and for the little argument on here conversation regarding the op's power goals where brought up and his mechanical experience, it says in the op that this engine is for his "race car" so there is no need to worry about driveability therefore the power goals are obviously high...idk what kind of race car this is referring to tho lol










_Modified by 97 GTI 10990 at 8:54 PM 1-18-2009_


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## cetanepusher (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (97 GTI 10990)*

Werll if he's stacking gaskets its not a race car. its track fodder.


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## hejso (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (97 GTI 10990)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97 GTI 10990* »_...anything thats this confrontational just dont do it.......similar to heroin people argue whether its good or bad therefore its confrontational therefore i dont do it...... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

that's a strange philosophy.


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## villan234 (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (97 GTI 10990)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97 GTI 10990* »_after all this arguing.......simply dont stack em...anything thats this confrontational just dont do it.......similar to heroin people argue whether its good or bad therefore its confrontational therefore i dont do it...... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
so i just went and re read the original post and got real confused....you want to raise the CR with 9a pistons and then you want to bring it back down with two head gaskets....ummmmm why?????? i simply dont understand..and for the little argument on here conversation regarding the op's power goals where brought up and his mechanical experience, it says in the op that this engine is for his "race car" so there is no need to worry about driveability therefore the power goals are obviously high...idk what kind of race car this is referring to tho lol









_Modified by 97 GTI 10990 at 8:54 PM 1-18-2009_

just to reply to that i have abf pistons in my aba block (8v head2 head gaskets stacked)and i have been running this set up 2 years now . the only problem i have is that i cannot used the tuning chip i had in before. i had to use a piggy back system. i have friend who has the same set up on carbs and this is a race car. P.S. my car is a daily driver.


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## dummywheels (Feb 19, 2009)

look in his specs 2 ABA headgaskets ......
and then look at the boost and WHP ..

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4200026
there is nothing wrong with mikey mousing and taking short cuts .....it might be not the RIGHT WAY but if it works it works ......

im not taking sides but ......but i think from his 23pounds of boost at 400whp proves that it don't realy matter ..


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## VOLKIRRIQUENO (Jul 4, 2010)

hello


i have a ABA block with ABA rods and crank all the rest are from an 9a 
(ABF clone)

piston (with 21mm pins)
oil pump 
etc.

and runs veeery great!!


sorry if you dont understand me i dont know to much english!
im from Puerto Rico


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