# Understanding the CEL problem with Spectre Intake Applications... $160 later



## 09VWagen2.5 (Mar 30, 2011)

I will try and post pics later haven't figured out how to add them without already having them uploaded somewhere (I'm guessing my profile????) 

Anyway, background: First post and first VW Car (actually not mine, my brother in law is working as a musician on a cruise ship for the next 4 months and I agreed to do some "upgrades" while he's gone)


*The Problem & the Fix:*

I installed Spectre tubing and the largest diameter and length air filter I could fit for a cold intake application on an '09 2.5L Jetta. The filter is just behind the driver's side fog-lamp cover. For those of you who didn't pay for the fog-light upgrade, it seems to be a good place to suck in cold air through the lamp cover slats.

Like every other penny-pincher that goes the Spectre route (total for this car was $160 with $30 in mistakes), the inevitable day-long forum/google/part-store search that follows in trying to find the right vacuum hose fittings is always a pain. And the worst part... whether you rig a fitting or actually find the correct grommets, fittings etc. that darned CEL will still pop up. 

I searched all over the Vortex forums trying to find a good fix without much luck (apologies to any threads that describe a fix in detail for the 2.5L) and after a lot of head-scratching, searching and phone calling, finally found the information I needed to start understanding what IS and is NOT needed to make this problem go away.

I found an independently owned European car repair shop close to my house that I took the car to for the mechanic to look at in trying to figure out what the heck those 2 hoses that come off the intake are SPECIFICALLY for. The shop advertises work for Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Maserti BMW, Mercedes and Audi but the mechanic said they get VWs in all the time so I figured I give them a try.

I had been trying to figure out what the FUNCTION of those two hoses that feed off of the stock intake (the ones just before the throttle body) are for and, reinforcing my speculations, he suggested that the larger one is the idle intake hose (to keep the car running at a stop when the throttle is closed) and the smaller one is for the blow by fumes that don't burn completely and cycle back threw the intake for cleaner emissions and better fuel economy.

_(just to clarify the mechanic was not sure which of the two hoses provides the the described functions)_

To me, the arrangement could make sense either way. If VW's design has the blow by hose (smaller) placed before the larger idle intake hose (in terms of air flow to the engine), I can understand their logic that the vacuum from the idle should be able to use the left over, unused blow by emissions for running at idle, therefor needing to be placed before the vacuum created by the engine at idle. And it makes enough sense that burning 2nd hand blow by emissions would be the best air to use when the engine is at it's lowest RPM and not under any stress. 

On the other hand, I could see how the smaller hose is the idle intake as the engine would need little oxygen at idle because there would be no power going to wheels and the throttle would be closed and the larger hose being the blow by return. Having a larger hose for the blow by return makes sense because if the engine is at WOT, it would seem that is when the engine is least efficient in terms of fuel economy (sure lots of combustion, but its happening so quickly, of course there would be lots of unused fuel leaving the chamber, especially on a stock engine like mine). If that's true, I could see how the smaller hose would be insufficient for that amount of volume. 

*MY Conclusions:*
THE DARN HOSES ARE JUST EFFICIENT GERMAN ENGINEERING. 

I think the CEL gets thrown because the Spectre hose port holes reduce the volume going in or out of the intake tube causing unbalanced pressure/suction/fuel mixture to other parts of the system whether they are used for vacuum, idle air, or both.

The error code I got was something like "secondary air injection system has insufficient flow". 

*Finally..... The Fix*
So to relieve the constriction or the headache of cutting a big enough hole in the tube or making the cut in the right place for the hoses to fit, I plugged all the vacuum connections on the intake tube (the standard Spectre "system"comes with a section of tube that allows for 3 vacuum attachments) and put air filter breathers on both hoses. The breathers relieve any constrictions to air flow volume, either negative (idle hose) or positive (recycled emissions, blow by).


*For SPECTRE Applications on 09 2.5L engines:*

• Install the intake tubes, filter and mounts and secure to the throttle body (there are plenty of threads on how to do this so I'm not going to beat it to death with any detail).

• Remove the larger hose (like take it out of the engine) from its connection (just underneath the throttle body) and secure a filtered breather to the ENGINE connection.

• Save the hose, no telling when you might need it

• Attach the other breather to the smaller hose (this one stays attached to the engine) at the end that would normally connect to the stock intake tube (I would have liked to put the breather for the smaller hose at it's connection from the engine but I can't for the life of me find where that connection is. That hose from the intake goes under the intake manifold somewhere but I didn't want to open that can of worms just to find a hose connection, however I believe it's obscure path lends more credibility to the smaller hose being the recycled emission line since those emissions would likely originate near the exhaust system).

DONE! No more google or forum searches, and more importantly NO MORE CEL!!!

I could be way off on all of this so any clarification (or contradiction with explanation) is welcome. Either way, we know that those two hoses are fed off of a tube that draws post filter air and the design of the stock intake makes it just as easy for the engineers to have attached them to the intake tube at the pre-filter stage so making sure, whatever the setup, that the air going to those tubes is filtered, IS A MUST. 

Since the day following the install of the breathers, the CEL hasn't come back and the only "adverse" side effect is the occasionaly smell of gas. Not like gasoline but almost like natural gas? I get whiffs of it after a hard WOT acceleration and my feeling is that it is the blow by return not cycling back through the intake (might explain why it smells like gas and not gasoline???). So much for the 09 Jetta being a PZEM engine....

AGAIN, ADVICE/CLARIFICATION IS WELCOME. I'm used to working with V8s and Carbs so this compact European setup is putting me on a quick learning curve. Hope my logic is making sense and it helps others dealing with the same problem.


_*** IMPORTANT - the CEL won't turn off automatically even if the problem is fixed (as informed to me by a VW dealer), you have to have the error code thrown to a Diagnostic Meter before it will turn off. NO NEED TO CLEAR THE ERROR CODE (give it a day or so for the onboard computer to recognize the change, mine was off the morning after I read the code the previous evening, around 6 or 7pm.*_


AS ALWAYS, YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY.... GOOD LUCK!


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

umm... you shoulnt need to remove the sai when installing an intake! 
just sell the dam thing, put everything to stock and buy a Pflow. much better and easier to install.

Also, 09+ work on MAP, so they dont usually throw a MIL after installing an intake.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

the 2 hoses ...
-big one is the intake for the secondary air pump.
-smaller one is the block PCV system vent.
-for a maf car they BOTH must go back into the intake tube after the maf and before the TB.
-for a 09+ maf-less car, you could vent both i guess and filter them BUT you most likely will effect the fueling a bit(not much) and you will smell crank case fumes. 
-personally i think is safer, better and over all a good idea to recir BOTH on BOTH maf and maf-less motors.
-the $190 you spent and labor to fab up a setup plus vag-com time and the "iffyness" of playing with AF ratio...i'd spend 230+/- and buy a premade proven intake. but :thumbup: for trying something on your own.


----------



## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

Cliff notes?


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

vwluger22 said:


> Cliff notes?


-he doesn't normally work on vw's
-wanted to mod the car for brother
-used pepboy intake parts to make cai for $160
-got CEL
-fixed intake to get rid of CEL
-paid $30 more to fix CEL and get it cleared
-$190 total in a home made intake
-works now, did something himself and is proud of it and was a learning experience for him.

good?:laugh::heart:


----------



## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

Good :beer:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

lol.
a neuspeed is 200.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

thygreyt said:


> lol.
> a neuspeed is 200.


 right


----------



## a7xogg (Nov 25, 2008)

good job on making your own intake. Any pics?


----------



## 09VWagen2.5 (Mar 30, 2011)

I've been trying to post pics but the FAQ is totally giving me the runaround on how to post attachments or pics as attachments or however you're supposed to do it. FAQ says something about a manage attachments button underneath the message box but I can't find it. The insert image link in the text editor gives no option for uploading from the computer and the posting permission for this thread say I may NOT post attachments. 

Was that something I setup when I started the thread or was that a moderator's decision? If I did it, how do I turn it off so I can post attachments?


----------



## 09VWagen2.5 (Mar 30, 2011)

The intake in the engine bay...









Goes down behind where the driver's side fog lamp would be.









Here's the air filter...









Up close air filter...










Breather secured to the Secondary air injection hose connection under the throttle body...









You can see the PCV valve hose breather from the first pic. I was planning on using the larger breather for the larger hose and "normal" size breather for the PCV valve but I'll have to take the throttle body off to fit it on there and at the time I needed to have the car running ASAP.

From what I'm hearing, I had the basic ideas right about the hoses? One of them provides air for combustion (not at idle but for some kind of combustion process) and the other is unused blow by right?

I'm trying to understand the fueling change the breathers will have. The 2ndary pump is still able to pull air in where it needs to but the difference now is that the blow by gases aren't being used again. Is the fuel mixture adversely effected because without the blow by gases thrown into the mix, the fuel mixture will be more air and less fuel? 

If the blow by doesn't go back through the intake, aside from polluting more and effecting gas mileage (sorry mother nature!), isn't the engine just getting straight up cold air through the intake? Does the computer adjust the fuel mixture based on the amount of blow by vented back into the intake? If the fuel system compensates for the extra combustible gases vented back to the intake then I could see how it could effect the fueling (again, more oxygen less fuel).

Either way, the car is running great, and you can hear the growl in the mid-range RPMs that everyone who pays for a "real" CAI talk about.

The PCV fumes are probably going to need to get fixed though. I looked more closely at the PCV hose and it narrows to about 1/2 a centimeter or less so I'm going to try hooking that up to the vacuum connection on the intake tube and see if the CEL comes on again.

If anyone wants the specs on tube lengths, angles etc. I can post those as well. 

JUST TO CLARIFY ON THE PRICE:

I meant that I spent $160 on everything but $30 of that was on mistakes, not $30 on top of $160. This can easily be done for $130 (and probably less).


----------

