# max vrt boost question



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

2 questions here... 

running a kinetic stage 3 turbo, with an 8.5:1 head spacer, wondering what boost level would equal what the factory hp would be ( only asking this, cause you can obviously feel the diff with the 8.5 vs the stock head gasket) 

and second would be, whats the max boost pressure you can run with an sri and stock head bolts, vs sri and arp head bolts.... 

ive read a few diff answers and thought it would be good to outright ask 


Thanks


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Anyone?

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

Us


kneedraggin101 said:


> 2 questions here...
> 
> running a kinetic stage 3 turbo, with an 8.5:1 head spacer, wondering what boost level would equal what the factory hp would be ( only asking this, cause you can obviously feel the diff with the 8.5 vs the stock head gasket)
> 
> ...


 just about any boost level should be well over the factory hp . If this is your daily or street driven car you should of got a 9:1 unless that engine is seeing 20psi+.


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

My point in asking is with this car if.I'm just off the clutch and driving normal...Yup can feel a low end difference vs the stock compression...

Now as for running 20+lbs.... Part of what I'm asking...what is the max I can run with or with out head studs

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

kneedraggin101 said:


> 2 questions here...
> 
> running a kinetic stage 3 turbo, with an 8.5:1 head spacer, wondering what boost level would equal what the factory hp would be ( only asking this, cause you can obviously feel the diff with the 8.5 vs the stock head gasket)
> 
> ...


 *I don't think you're loosing that much HP with 8.5:1 head spacer, my guess is around 15-20HP, to make the power loss I'll say 2PSI of boost will make it up. 

*Max power on OEM head bolts, I wouldn't pass 280WHP, the boost level for that power numbers will very depending on the turbo size, down pipe, xhaust size and all. 

*max power with ARP head studs will be around 320-350 WHP due to rod bolt failure, if you do the rod bolt you can take it to 400WHP on OEM pistons. 

*even knowing that some people on this site are pushing 500-600 WHP on stock pistons/rods, there are no liability what so ever and I garantee that on a street car you'll crack the ring land on the OEM pistons or brake a rod OEM bolt pass 400WHP, some cars may last a little longger than others depeding on the turbo/fuel setup. 

*it is all on the tuning, turbo spool up, and how soon the torque comes in, for example, people running E85 for fuel, stock pistons will take a lot more power due to motor running much cooler, so piston's ring land go thru less heat stress helping them to last a little longger than someone using regular fuel.


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

1psi?


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

there is a guy making over 650 whp on a stock block vr6. has arp head studs and rods bolts with a head gasket spacer.. check the drag forum. 

you can run 35 lbs of boost if you have a good standalone like VEMS and a proper fuel to support that like e85 or race gas


----------



## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

it is a track car only and the piston already gave up, i'm sure on a street car you're also looking for liability too and not a time bomb, just my $0.02 cents


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Well its a daily and a friend of mine is.running c2 software 42# with a kinetic stage 3 kit...

Same 2.5dp as me, full 3" no cat...

Only diff with me is 60# software and 262 cams...same 2.5dp and 3" full exhaust....

I've been running 20lbs but no wideband to measure yet(getting one next week)

Just wondering where the limits are


And btw my friend has 135,xxx miles on it running that boost and no boom yet

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

zwogti said:


> it is a track car only and the piston already gave up, i'm sure on a street car you're also looking for liability too and not a time bomb, just my $0.02 cents


 IIRC, That was after endless runs over a few years. I do agree with you up to a point. VR's can handle a bit more then what you've mentioned. I've also read that the rod bolts can take much more then that. ARP head studs are good for way more then that. I've seen VR's daily on 20+ psi, 450whp with just head spacer & ARP studs.


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Again that's why I.made this.post Cause I've read and been told numerous times that 20+ psi on arp head studs and 8.5 is an all day every day sorta deal... Also you can be in the 500whp range with proper exhaust and cams

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

zwogti said:


> it is a track car only and the piston already gave up, i'm sure on a street car you're also looking for liability too and not a time bomb, just my $0.02 cents


 Acually its a street car. Just cause i don't street race doesnt mean i don't womp on it on the street. It gave up one piston at waterfest cause it couldnt take the heat:laugh:. I switched to a 1.8t air temp sensor after that. Cause weve never ran the car in that much heat and were seeing that the car is going from 50c in the waterbox to 80-87c at the end of the track. With the old sensor it showed nowhere near that change. Its pulling alot of timing up top. My cheap ebay intercooler isnt keeping up anymore. I have a garrett 24x12x4.5 im putting on the car this week. Btw with the new piston the car has been 10.2 2 times 10.1 4 times and 10.0 twice. So i would call it reliable.


----------



## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> IIRC, That was after endless runs over a few years. I do agree with you up to a point. VR's can handle a bit more then what you've mentioned. I've also read that the rod bolts can take much more then that. ARP head studs are good for way more then that. I've seen VR's daily on 20+ psi, 450whp with just head spacer & ARP studs.


 His question was about running a vr6 motor with head studs/spacer, I didn't see anywhere about replacing the rod bolts, in this case I wouldn't push over 400WHP/400WTQ on a high mileage OEM stock rod bolt, like i said before, we do have people doing it, but there are no liability on a 500-600 WHP car and to me it is like a time bomb, if you can build your own motor and this is a drag car that will see 4 drag race events a year, when the car have no interior/a lot weight reduction, yes, it will last 1-2 years before it blow up, just run to a junk yard, pick up a stock vr6 bottom end, put it in and go to the next drag event. when I think in giving advice, i keep in mind that for this kind of discripion, this person doesn't sound like a mechanic or know a lot about VWcars/liability/big turbo, in this case I'll keep his car on the reliable side, sure the vr6 have been proof to hold a lot more power that we think it can hold, but so far we don't know for how long it will hold depending on the turbo/fuel set up. 

* question is... can you rebuild it every time if it blows up? your answer will automatic tell you how much you want to push the limite on your daily drive.


----------



## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Acually its a street car. Just cause i don't street race doesnt mean i don't womp on it on the street. It gave up one piston at waterfest cause it couldnt take the heat:laugh:. I switched to a 1.8t air temp sensor after that. Cause weve never ran the car in that much heat and were seeing that the car is going from 50c in the waterbox to 80-87c at the end of the track. With the old sensor it showed nowhere near that change. Its pulling alot of timing up top. My cheap ebay intercooler isnt keeping up anymore. I have a garrett 24x12x4.5 im putting on the car this week. Btw with the new piston the car has been 10.2 2 times 10.1 4 times and 10.0 twice. So i would call it reliable.


 I do understand your point and you guys are doing realy good job in keep it toguether, but to me a daily drive would have an A/C, all the interior would be there, someone that drive to work or a longger period of driving it every day and things like that, on this case that not even rod bolts were on the list i wouldn't take my chances, that's just my opinion. but i know everyone have they own opinion on the subject. :thumbup:


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

didnt tum tum drive his car to show and go on the street.. race at the track, won and then drove it home.. 

it is a street car. he races true street class. just because he uses it more on the track doesnt mean he couldnt drop boost a little to make it more streetable and drive it every day. and im pretty sure all of the interrior is in the just no back seat


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> Well its a daily and a friend of mine is.running c2 software 42# with a kinetic stage 3 kit...


 this is what will hold you back.. 20psi or so is really the limit on a chip tune.. swap to vems or another quality standalone and run some e85 and 35psi is not out of the question. i drive my gti around 35psi on the street.


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

zwogti said:


> His question was about running a vr6 motor with head studs/spacer, I didn't see anywhere about replacing the rod bolts, in this case I wouldn't push over 400WHP/400WTQ on a high mileage OEM stock rod bolt, like i said before, we do have people doing it, but there are no liability on a 500-600 WHP car and to me it is like a time bomb, if you can build your own motor and this is a drag car that will see 4 drag race events a year, when the car have no interior/a lot weight reduction, yes, it will last 1-2 years before it blow up, just run to a junk yard, pick up a stock vr6 bottom end, put it in and go to the next drag event. when I think in giving advice, i keep in mind that for this kind of discripion, this person doesn't sound like a mechanic or know a lot about VWcars/liability/big turbo, in this case I'll keep his car on the reliable side, sure the vr6 have been proof to hold a lot more power that we think it can hold, but so far we don't know for how long it will hold depending on the turbo/fuel set up.
> 
> * question is... can you rebuild it every time if it blows up? your answer will automatic tell you how much you want to push the limite on your daily drive.


 Actually I.know v8s and such well but I.do not know the.vr6 very well hence.my.question...

This is a street car with only 15k on the engine...everything was rebuilt before with all Oem parts minus arp head studs.

Was just going to build this for an 8-10lbs supercharged car...but sold the charger and went stage 3 kinetic turbo, then upgraded to the 630cc injectors, then added 262 cams, then my.curiosity came into play on how much this would take to stay as a daily, but when.I wanted to play, what it would take.

Now I could get ie rods and cp piston and arp rod bolts for 2g and call it a day.

But again this is just for fun not for drag racing

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ToneTurbo (Feb 15, 2007)

zwogti said:


> I do understand your point and you guys are doing realy good job in keep it toguether, but to me a daily drive would have an A/C, all the interior would be there, someone that drive to work or a longger period of driving it every day and things like that, on this case that not even rod bolts were on the list i wouldn't take my chances, that's just my opinion. but i know everyone have they own opinion on the subject. :thumbup:


 
You haven't seen this car then.. radio. Full interior. What else do you need for it to be a true street car.. I bet timmys car is more reliable then some peoples dailys.. just watch the most recent video of his in car cam.. it will show that he even has a glove box that opens.. car is a beast ..


----------



## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

For some reason, i enjoy the convo in this thread. Rare to see people leave their ego's at the door :thumbup: 

"curiosity came into play on how much this would take to stay as a daily, but when.I wanted to play, what it would take." 
Turning up the boost. Like someone said above, anything more & you're just spinning the tires. 350-400 isn't out of the question & plenty to play. I'm shooting for 400 daily with my VRT & i too am running on a stock block (with low miles). I also have a spare 12v just in case. It would only take me a day to swap it over if necessary. 

I also agree with you in that there's no need for forged pistons & rods for a daily. Some might not agree but... 

I would also get ARP studs for reassurance.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

i drive my gti on the street on 93.. at 20psi it breaks every gear loose.. no need really for more on the street in my opinion. 

400 fwhp is more then enough on a street tire. traction becomes a joke on a street tire.. thats with a diff as well. 

i gave up on my gti.. wont be putting any more money into it.. after my last audi and my new CQ project i will never build a fwd vw again..


----------



## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

26psi everyday on my stock block with 60-1, meth and 42#.. no problems. I did have 8.5:1 comp and arp studs. Now running 26 psi on hx52, which is MUCH faster (yet to dyno..prob 480-500 ish) and its holding up fine. Im a strong believer in heavy water/meth injection. It gives you a larger safety margin, especially when running a chip tune. I am thinking about arp rod bolts though, im not really sold on the whole resizing thing yet though.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

im not a fan of water meth. but i can tune my car to be safe bc i have vems and not a chip tune.. so its not really needed in my application..


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

boost_addict said:


> im not a fan of water meth. but i can tune my car to be safe bc i have vems and not a chip tune.. so its not really needed in my application..


 I can tune mine as well but since I live in hot and steamy Florida I find I am liking a small amount of WMI. 180* heatsoak IATs are normal 8 months of the year. WMI knocks that down quicky and I can usually maintain IATs within 5* of ambient and go 10 to 20* BELOW ambient under boost.


----------



## hpfreak (Jun 21, 2005)

With just a head spacer, ARP studs C2 tune and WM inj I ran 20 to 25psi for 8 yrs before I put a whole in piston #5. By the way it was still driveable after I replaced the spark plug and was able to drive it home 30 min away (lots of smoke). This was a DD and on a Turbonetics 60-1. I drove it hard and ran it from 60-150 racing bikes so these were fairly long pulls which put alot of stress on the engine. I have since put in another stock motor with the same setup but with a Precision 67mm. It is still dailied and pushed hard but not as often(not doing 150mph pulls every weekend). 


Boost_addict I sure would like to know what tires you are running to break 4th and 5th loose on the street that would mean you are spinning at 140mph + assuming an O2J with stock gearing. 
I run 255 40 17 Dunlop Star Specs and hook fairly well at 60mph with 530whp and 500wtq in a 3015lb jetta. 

05JettaGLXVR6 I just want to say congrats on what you have done and keep it up. 150mph traps are impressive and you will see 9's soon. 

As you can see from my post count I don't post alot but there is a lot of missimformation out there concerning VR6t's. They can be very reliable with just a spacer, studs and a tune keeping in mind that the engine is in good shape to begin with. If your motor is tired and smoking with bad compression #'s throwing boost on isn't going to fix it and chances are you will have a short lived engine. I know of very few factory NA motors that can take 20+ psi on stock internals and hold together as well as the vr6 does. It is an inherently strong motor and simple which makes working on it very easy. True the head doesn't flow that well but throwing boost at it overcomes this. To bad I can't say the same for the Tranny. 

To the op put in ARP head studs and have the piece of mind that you are not going to lift the head or blow a head gasket and run 20+psi I feel fairly reliably and get a WB and monitor AFR.


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Ya I have arp studs in there....looking to replace my kinetic kit turbo with something else...

Any suggestions?

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

kneedraggin101 said:


> looking to replace my kinetic kit turbo with something else...
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


 What's your budget, what your hp goal? 

BTW, I'm going to also confirm that 25 psi is doable, reliably on a mainly stock block (other than headspacer and ARP, 630cc chip, numerous turbos T3/T4 50 trim, T3/T4 60 trim, T70, Gt35R, PTE 6765). Car was driven ~ 80 miles daily in that config for several years. Engine has since been replaced but not due to failure of any components, it now resides in another Mk3 with no issues.


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Well ideally as cheap as possible being I'm.a dad lol

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Also to.everyone who has posted in here... I got my innovative lc1 today... Where is the best position to get the right reading for the vrt 

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> Also to.everyone who has posted in here... I got my innovative lc1 today... Where is the best position to get the right reading for the vrt
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


 I like 18"-24" downstream from the turbo in the downpipe. If you are 12" or closer to the turbo outlet the sensor can overheat and burn out. Been there done that.


----------



## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> I can tune mine as well but since I live in hot and steamy Florida I find I am liking a small amount of WMI. 180* heatsoak IATs are normal 8 months of the year. WMI knocks that down quicky and I can usually maintain IATs within 5* of ambient and go 10 to 20* BELOW ambient under boost.


 i run 20psi on pump 93 no meth because any more it really doesnt go anywhere.. at a bar it blows the tires loose in every gear. so i have very conservative timing and run about 20psi on pump 

i dont use watermeth because when i want to run more boost. i stop at sunoco on my way home and fill up with e85. then i can run 30+, so i have no use for water meth. 

my precision fmic keeps temps low.. i get low 30's crusing on a hot day. 

if i didnt have access to e85. i may consider it. however my awesome local sunoco owner is now pushing for LPG which would be way cool as well.. you run .88-.9 lambda under boost.. so you also use alot less of it. alot of the vems guys in europe all use it because its everywhere.. it is HALF the price of petrol there and has octain of about 105. and you use less of it then gas. much better burn in my opinion.. i have my fingers crossed


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

The closest gas station to me selling e85 is over 70 miles away.


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok ill place it about 24 away....

And e85....I don't think we even have that stuff in Canada here lol

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

I stand corrected...there is 3 and the closest one is 2 hours from me

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


----------

