# VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

Hopefully that title grabbed some attention. We are looking for anyone who has ever managed to break the 250WHP/280CHP barrier with a 12v VR6. 
If anyone can provide links or references to any tuners or teams who have managed to better these numbers in ANY sort of NA configuration we'd like to know about it.
Also, If any engineers with access to CFD (or similar) tools would be interested in helping out with an interesting project we have, please email us.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, check around for Bernd's 3.1L rabbit. That engine has had various top end set ups, both hydro and solid. I would contact him or Techtonics Tuning as Collin has a lot of time invested in the build as well as behind the wheel. You can talk to Anthony Dowd about his stock 2.8L bottom end engine in his race car. Also, WRD has been claiming high output from their car as well. All three mentioned are at or above 225whp with a 12v head.
Good luck with the project. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (nutbox11)*

i have access to ricardo wave, fluent and unigraphics NX 4. IM me


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## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jamesn67)*

ricardo is mainly 1-dimensional flow dynamics, and is useful for runner length tuning, power output estimation and temperature effects. 
fluent is good for port bowl shape and plenum design. I think it can do the mixing as well.


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## foyboy (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VR6DPLMT.)*

I work for Ricardo and know the product manager for the relevant software. What you guys actually after ?


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

hmm I had "email for replies" set to on but it didnt work or I would have replied to some of this already. 
OK I'll reply from the top....
>> race car?
Yes. In addition to our SCCA engine programs We're developing a few different engines to compete in the new NASA configurations. NASA has changed to a power to weight formula where you can run almost anything you want. NA, Turbo, SC, you name it. We're especially interested in developing VW engines to compete in the GTS Challenge. A series currently dominated by Porsche and BMW. We're doing more than just VR6 btw.
>> ive only heard of a few breaking 200
WheelHP I assume you mean. 200 crank is easy. We're putting down just shy of 200 crank HP on a stock engine with only a CAI, custom ECU tune, careful blueprint, balance and bump in compression. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> How long do you think that motor would last with power like that.
250 WHP will have very high compression (~14:1) so it will be little hard on the rod bearings. But it's still only 250. Should not be a grenade by any means.
>> Didn't EIP claim their 3.1L's were good for 301hp?
I's like to see that data if anyone can dig it up.
>> Bill, check around for Bernd's 3.1L rabbit. 
Yup. I spent 45min. on the phone with the engine builder of that car the other night. Chris is a real nice guy. He gave us some good pointers and backed up a lot of what we already were thinking.
That motor in fact is what this project is all about! They kept trying different configs and could never get past the 250WHP wall. They swapped intakes, heads, exhuasts, etc etc and nothing woudl get it past 250WHP. We want to break the wall. If we can find the problem, then we should be able to go WAY past it. There are 3L full race motors making 400CHP that are based on production castings.
>> You can talk to Anthony Dowd about his stock 2.8L... 
Heard a lot about him. Where is he?
>> i have access to ricardo wave, fluent and unigraphics NX 4. IM me
Now we're talkin! IM on the way. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> 275 crank iam sure it can happen. basically thats dowd with a 3.1 high compression block.
No. It's not that simple. Bernd's 3.1L was 14:1, with big everything and 288* cams. (cause 300* didnt work) There is a reason the VR6 has a problem getting past 250WHP and we intend to find out why. Since many of you have done basic tuning and testing of components, it's time we change gears and apply some modern engineering tools to investigate what's going on. 
>>Also don't forget thermal coating any parts 
BTDT. It helps but it's not the answer to the big question.
>> Also try custom cams 
Cam design may play a roll in this. Our engine man has designed a VR6 cam that is a bit different than most out there. If it works, we can have CAT do a bunch for the masses.







However most of you probably wont want a 300* cam that wont idle








>> Eurospec sells 3.2L blocks 
But they dont build race motors. Just bolting parts together (No offense) is fine for a street motor, but we do our own engine building for a reason.
>> I work for Ricardo and know the product manager for the relevant software. What you guys actually after ?
Help ;-) I'll be IM'ing you too.
>> why a 12v when the 24v is out?
Good question. 2 answers. A) It's a challenge. Something that nobody has managed to do although many have tried. B) We all know the 12v VR6 is cheap and plentiful and if we can break the wall, then I'm sure many will be happy.
>> the head doesn't allow for valves a whole lot bigger then stock
I call the readily available +3mm valves quite a bit larger but we're not sure they need to be that big. 
This is not going to be something we pull off in 3 weeks time. This is going to take all summer at least. We'll be posting our results on our website and occasionally in here.
If we had a real budget for this we'd just go to Mahle Motorsports (ex Cosworth) and say "fix it", but this is a lower priority experiment. So if any engineers out there (students?) want to help out by loaning us a little brain power and CPU time, we'd love to hear from you.










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:28 PM 5-19-2006_


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Oh, PS - a short runner "log" intake is not the answer. While a log or ITB setup may be in our final solution, that alone has been tried and again didnt break the 250 mark.








resonance, reversion, harmonics, pressure waves... the answre is in there somewhere.


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## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (vdubjb)*

Sounds like a great project. Def. hook up with the Ricardo guy as that may be the best way to uncover why the engine can't get past the 250 mark.
You can have him build you some flow models of the intake and exhaust system to see if you can uncover a flow problem either on
the intake or exhaust side. This can def. help you tremendously with
any porting you plan on doing. 
Not that you want to spend all the research money but the CAE tools can even help you with the combustion and injection modeling. You 
could design your own piston combustion surface and play around with different injector locations...But now you are talking big money!
I do a lot of FEA stress analysis, but have done some CFD work in the past, all for auto manufacturs so I'd be happy to share anything I know. The Ricardo connection is a great source though so make sure to get foyboy to help you out.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*

i know of a secret company building stroker cranks... they only have one left which i was planning on buying. the block is a 3.0L and the crank makes up for .2L displacement so it will be a 3.2L. custom crank, custom rods, and custom pistons. you could go with a bigger piston like a custom 85mm 13-1 compression deal and have a 3.4L 12v....
he told me they made 240whp on pump gas with a schrick intake manifold and a big valve head. i dont know if its true for sure yet. i dont know if i want to drop a little over 4 grand on a N/A short block though.
give me a call if you want to collaborate. 732 407 3384 keith-


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Reverse Engineering*

Does anyone have access to a 3D scanner who could produce a point cloud of a VR6 intake if we were to provide them with a physical cross section of the ports?
Can anyone provide any CAD files or drawings (links?) of 12v VR6 cylinder heads?


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## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Reverse Engineering (Bildon Motorsport)*

this is what I already had scanned:
















When I did these, I was only concerned with external dimensions. I'll see if I can get the CMM again to scan the ports.



_Modified by BennyB at 5:49 PM 5-21-2006_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Heard a lot about him. Where is he?

Sorry, I didn't see that you posted this earlier.
Anthony's screen name is 95GLX.
I know a great deal about this car but it is just best to contact him. 
Looking forward to seeing how your project pans out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

Thanks BillyVR6 I shot him an IM. 
To all, this is going to be a long project. We will not be able to update this thread on a frequent basis. It would be great if we could keep the forum "noise" level to a minimum so that in the end the thread has more substance than most.
Yah those Atomic heads make good power for a reason


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project*

We will be doing research and modelling through the next few months. After our modelling and analysis has yielded enough data we will then begin to design parts and finally we will begin machining and assembly. I would not expect to see an engine on the dyno for at least 3 months probably longer.
Anyone here have any experience or access to the 4stHEAD software package?


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## 95GLX (Dec 13, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
If not, then yeah... 270whp has already been had from a bored out naturally aspirated 24v. 

Who was that and was that on a 2wd or 4wd dyno?
Isn't 251.5 WHP on 4wd dyno pretty good for a N/A 3.2, 24V on pump gas?
As far as the 12 valve project and over 250 WHP/275 crank, where to start?
I think my best dyno was 229 WHP, maybe 231, I really don't remember, have to do some archive searches. I think the last time i dynoed was March 2005 at NGP when i was home on leave and finally swapped the bottom end out with another 2.8L.
I didn't have the right fuel with me either so the dyno session was just to make sure I had a clean map and to find my shift points. I went directly to the track after that!
Mods at the time:
Stock 2.8L bottom end.
Schrick 268 cams.
CCH big valve head-big intake, big exhaust, mm?, lots of porting.
Stock exhaust manifold, never port matched as it should be.
OEM crank pulley.
DTA Fast Pro 8 engine management.
42/40mm ITB's by Grant Motorsports.
MKIV H.G.?, I might have used the carboard one, have to look.
VP Red race gas!
5w-30 Mobil one oil!
Bosch FR8LDC spark plugs!
Ford blue top injectors, 19lbs i believe.
That's it!
So, i need to make 19-21 more horsepower for you! I have a few ideas that are pretty darn simple and will probably work. I never did get the best tune on this set up, 235-240 should be achievable staying with the 2.8. Heck, just a blueprint/balance should net half that. 
What is the wall with the 12 valve? The fact that no one ever had or was willing to really put the money, time or effort into really developing this engine beyond bolt-ons and things that can be marketed easily!
anthony


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (darisd)*

>> the pistons and connecting rods (and other parts if you are really anal) 
Replace "anal" with "professional"
>> So all the rods would have the same mass 
Yes, all components are balanced so that the engine spins freely with little vibration and reduced harmonics. In addition all components are checked for dimensional accuracy (blueprinting). Machining everything to optimize the function, efficiency and therefore power output.
>> Never heard of anyone paying for this to be done
Every real race engine is balanced and if it is a stock based engine it is blueprinted.
>> Hence why noone with a VW these days seems to do it
There are hundreds of VWs racing and rallying in the US alone that have properly built engines.


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## Halpem (May 15, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Anyone here have any experience or access to the 4stHEAD software package?

Do you have any software where in mind? I have access to getting almost any software due to where I work, I notice the UK has many companies doing or atleast sell it. 
I was looking at this one , http://www.optimum-power.com/blair.htm








http://www.directopedia.org/di...shtml



_Modified by Halpem at 6:33 PM 5-29-2006_


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## 95GLX (Dec 13, 1999)

*Re: (ojnrice)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ojnrice* »_I have mine blueprinted and balanced bith times, i would never put an engine together that wasn't I will have to post my dyno results whe i get my chip. i am hoping for 240. i have
12.5:1 CR
3.0
268 cams
beyond bigvalve head 35.8 ex 42 in
2.5 catless exhaust
A/C deleted
lightened crank pulley
MK4 Head gasket
Titanium Retainers 
Lightweight lifters.
etc...
way to much money
and to make sure I hit 300whp
100 direct port NOS
will be using EIP3.0 cam chip, because they are the only people that make one, and I am not a fan of EIP.

I hope you clay this engine before you run it. Also, with all the work done and the fact that you plan on running the spray on this set up I would go stand-a-lone for engine management and would even think twice about it. Otherwise, this will be another built VR6 motor that will end up on the garage floor with bent valves or burnt piston rings!
Anthony


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (EuroVeeDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EuroVeeDub* »_
What does it mean to "clay" the engine?

it means once everything is built, since the only way to achieve high power is with high compression. high compression = small clearance for valve to piston(due to the redesign of the piston). people put clay on the pistons and assemble the motor/cams and all. and spin the motor to see where the valve is hitting to make sure there is enough clearance between valves and piston.
i hope that helps you understand.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (ojnrice)*

>> 12.5:1 CR
Custom pistons? or did you machine the tops off the "close side" ?
BTW, we plan to get a 2.9L bone stock motor with our custom Motronic tune onto the the dyno again this week to verify our earlier numbers. Will publish them after the test. The custom Motronic VR6 programs are doing well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (ojnrice)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ojnrice* »_will be using EIP3.0 cam chip, because they are the only people that make one.

Not True.
I could easily tune that set-up. (IM me for references)
Trouble is, most folks want/expect a ~canned tune to 
run a custom set-up. 
-Jeff


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## ojnrice (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> 12.5:1 CR
Custom pistons? or did you machine the tops off the "close side" ?


custom Ross Racing Pistons
12.5:1 is not that high, i did not need to clay, if you go above 13 that is when you start to get a big dome.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 Race Engine*

>> I could easily tune that set-up. (IM me for references)
We consulted with Jeff on Motronic tuning. He knows his stuff. Stop messing around with generic guesswork and give him a call.

>>12.5:1 is not that high 
Doesn't have to be, depending on how you got your compression. 
I have seen bent rods & valves on engines because they decked the block and/or ran the mk4 thin gasket and/or installed a high lift cam that would normally clear on an OE engine. This can happen at CR's lower than 12.5. 
There can easily be little clearance on the "short side".








Progress on the VR6 engine "modelling" has continued. I'd like to thank BennyB for really helping out with this. He has been putting together the first model (OE VR6) in Ricardo's Wave application. It still needs a lot of work to get it to the point where we can begin to draw assumptions but that work continues and in the end we should have a model that will allow virtual "modding" ...far cheaper than porting 5 sets of heads to get it right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
As you can see the model is already showing an approximately correct HP curve for the VR6.








Please dont make any comments about the details of the RPM range vs HP curve. This is a work in progress!
The current model has only the basics roughed in. Recent refinements include; Proper injector location, refinement of port dimensions for lower intake, friction and heat transfer multipliers, etc.
Work yet to be done includes Exhaust dimensions. The intake models including tubing and filters, need some more refinement. Camshaft profiles for OE, street and full race cams will be added. 
Port flow data will be obtained with either flow bench testing or CFD analysis (or both). This is an area that we plan to investigate extensively as the odd shaped VR6 ports may prove to have some surprises.








We are still progressing and we have no real groundbreaking news to report yet. All in good time...








PS - If anyone else has access to software or equipment that could help with this project in any way, please contact us at sales @ bildon We can exhange parts for time if interested.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:10 PM 5-31-2006_


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## eurotekms (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Race Engine (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> .

I have seen bent rods & valves on engines because they decked the block and/or ran the mk4 thin gasket and/or installed a high lift cam that would normally clear on an OE engine. This can happen at CR's lower than 12.5. 

_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:10 PM 5-31-2006_









Lucky enough never to tap, but also thought it'd be wise to keep the cams stock.... although a custom set is being spec'd out.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

Update....
Took a brief break from this project to do some other work and get a race and some testing in. But it's time to do a bit more work...
Over the next few weeks we'll be measuring the intakes and exhausts in more detail to improve the model. We'll also begin some porting and adding that data to the model. Finally we will be destroying some intakes and a cyl head to get cutaway measurements.








Both stock and full race ports will be examined. Flow bench data (both before and after porting) will be captured and added to the model.
If anyone has a damaged cylinder head that they would like to donate to the cause, we will pay for all shipping and give the donor a $50 gift certificate for any parts purchased through Bildon.com http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Kenner8v88 (Jun 15, 2005)

Ok understanding that the 12v is a BIG flow problem, why not cast another one that looks like how a V8 would look. cylinders on the right side exhaust and intake ont he right side and cylinders on the left exhaust and intake on the left, it wouldn't take up any more room then a regular VR6 engine does any way. And VR6's run hot all the time so they are always heat soaked so if you fix the cooling problem also you would probably gain some power also, throw the stock 12v head in the trash and start with a fresh idea dont keep building off an already bad idea to make it worse.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Kenner8v88)*

We have no cooling problems with the VR6 race engines we build. 
As far as your other idea. It's A, impossible and B, misses the point of this excercise completly.


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_We have no cooling problems with the VR6 race engines we build. 
As far as your other idea. It's A, impossible and B, misses the point of this excercise completly.









The point of your exercise is to figure out why the 12 VR's hit a wall at 250hp isn't it? We all know its a flow problem, what else do you honestly think it could be? His idea isn't impossible but it would take a lot of funding to cast a new cyl. head and some creative customization up front for the additional exhaust manifold and piping. Its probably not worth it, just turbo the b*tch and be done with it.








I think the real heatsoaked part we're talking about is the intake manifold, not so much the actual cooling system. My VR's coolant temp sits between 160-180 even when I'm driving it hard.
A manifold entirely made of plastic would be best (I believe the MKIV's have those). I've run at the track dozens of times and I run as much as .3 seconds better if I ice my intake manifold down so you can actually touch it.
Has anyone ever messed with camshaft timing like you can do on 8v and 16v's? Adjustable upper timing chain sprockets or totally different sprockets for different degrees? 

just throwing ideas out as they come to mind..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (xpalendocious)*

Not sure how I missed this thread for so long either, but it looks like you're talking to all the right people. 
One thing that I always wanted to try was separate intake and exhaust streams on the long and short runners. Get tuned intake and exhaust length on both and keep them separate from intake tubes to tail pipe. I think just this excersise in independence could make some power, and if not at least you would be able to tune intake and exhaust lenghts more efficently. 
Much luck to you, I spent too much money, time and aggrivation barely not making a street 200whp that I would be reluctant to try again.


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## Kenner8v88 (Jun 15, 2005)

Ok A) nothing is impossible B) it doesn't miss the point of the exercise completely because your trying to get the most power out of this engine, You HAVE to modify things to make power, and if you want to make the most power you have to open your eyes and get out of your little box and come up with ideas. How does it miss the point completely, please tell me. It will still be a 12v it will still be a VR6 it would just be one of a kind. You already know how much you can make on a stock head because of its flow issues, make something that has no flow issues and the problem is solved.


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## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Kenner8v88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kenner8v88* »_How does it miss the point completely, please tell me. It will still be a 12v it will still be a VR6 it would just be one of a kind. You already know how much you can make on a stock head because of its flow issues, make something that has no flow issues and the problem is solved.

I'm not sure I'd say we KNOW how much we can get out of a stock head. I've only observed a handfull of people here working with different head designs. Who's to say that the magic button hasn't been pushed yet. That's the point I think Bildon is shooting for.
When you start manufacturing one off custom heads, you've crossed the line of trying to extract the most from a base design.
The slicing of a head up is exactly what I've been considering in order to examine each runner, and to see how much material can be removed and from where.
I nominate this as the best Vortex thread of 2006


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## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re:*

im sure it would still be costly but could you machine a newly designed head as opposed to a casting?


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (AzradoVr666)*

>>> ..maybe look into a adjustable cam gear..
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6
Not cheap... also not needed if you index the cams properly during assembly.


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I saw on the old VR6 Dyno website there was a VW tuner company that made a solif lifter race port/polished big valve head. What the solid lifter aloud for was higher rpms I think it redlined at 8 or 9 grand. From what I heard the head was hella expensive to make but the car dynoed at something like 230whp plus other stuff done to it. OK that might not be practical but it made some decent power and the power band was really big.
So after you get the head the way you want it have you ever thought about custom grinding your own cams? Plus then custom tuning it for the exact A/F? I know we can't do stuff like tuning the cam angles but would we do the ignition timing? I saw CAT makes cam gears for the VR6 but to use them don't you have to take your manifold off everytime you want to adjust? Unlike some other engines 4g63,honda engines, 2JZ's, etc. our VR6's aren't too friendly to adjustable cam gears. It would be nice to see if they actually helped make power though. If I am rambling sorry been up all night listening to "The Birthday Party"


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

yea i'm single chain now, i couldn't even use those cam gears. even if there were some single chain ones i'd be reluctant to use them because i would have no clue how much to retard/advance each cam.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (JRaptor2000)*

without completely redoing the flow paths of the stock head, I dont think its feasable. The solid lifters with large cam lobs and a destrOKED crank, MIGHT make more the 230whp but even @ 15% thats 264bhp. This is where the 24v comes into play...
edit: had a nasty typo


_Modified by fatfreevw at 11:22 AM 6-23-2006_


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

The solid lifter head was done successfully with no problems to the 12v engine at all. I think it had tt288's and b/c of it being able to rev to 8 or 9 grand it could take advantage of the powerband the tt288's gave it plus being a bvh port/polish also helped. It didn't destroy the crank either it was just an expensive thing to do so that's why it was a one off.


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

I see. It wasn't destroked though it was a 3.1L Someone once explained to me the physics of a solid lifter head and why you could rev so high with them without destroying things. I forget the name of the guy on here who explained it.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

probably because you arent waiting for a spring to decompress. the law of thermodynamics can only go so far and so fast


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

OK that's cool. I wished I remembered the name of the Company/tuner shop that did the solid lifter head on the 3.1L VR6. It did rev to somewhere between 8-9k I just haven't seen the dyno graph in a long time. The tuner company was pretty popular back in the day.


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## steveedub (Jan 2, 2001)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

The company you are talking about I believe is Trac Racing.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (steveedub)*

didnt ABT make one as well?


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

so how we gonna fix the flow paths?


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (JRaptor2000)*

there is ALOT you can take out from the inside corner of the bend.... if coolant passage doesnt get in the way...


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (steveedub)*

Yes that was the tuner co. TrackRacing.


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## Hideo_son (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

the vr6 has different intake and exhaust runner lengths within the head. that we all know. but what i was wondering was if one were to make all the runner lengths the same would that be of any help to the solution in making more power? that would require a different intake mani. design. the reason i ask this is because within in the head there are different sets of intake pulses going on at different frequecnies. the vr6 is the only engine, with the exception of its other counterparts( w8,vr5...) to have this occur within the head. its just a thought thats been bouncin around in my head ever since i first read this tread. 
i was thinking that if one were to make all the intake runners as close to identical in form and length. kinda like an equal lenght header but for the intake side.


_Modified by Hideo_son at 10:19 AM 6-24-2006_


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## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Hideo_son)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hideo_son* »_i was thinking that if one were to make all the intake runners as close to identical in form and length. kinda like an equal lenght header but for the intake side.

AFAIK the stock manifold does this. If you look at one that has been cut open, you can see the different length intake runners.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *James 93SLC* »_
AFAIK the stock manifold does this. If you look at one that has been cut open, you can see the different length intake runners.

ture but i dont think its actually an equal length. i think if you did every other and made it equal length (intke and exhaust) you would be likely to get a lot morre power out of it, however both manifolds would look ridiculous if you have the wedling skills at least give the intake manifold a try. you'll still be able to feel the difference since the flow of the exhaust hasnt changed. Probably able to get more air, more bang, more power


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_probably because you arent waiting for a spring to decompress. the law of thermodynamics can only go so far and so fast

Well, there are now hyraulic lifters capable of being pushed into the 12-14k rpm range, Not cheap at all, but pretty standard fare amoung high rpm endurance engines like judd, aer and zytek.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (130_R)*

i didnt know they had them avail for vr6, my mistake. and anyways i meant trying to push th stock ones or high tension ones used in high profile cams to far


----------



## sh{}e (Aug 7, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Hopefully that title grabbed some attention. We are looking for anyone who has ever managed to break the 250WHP/280CHP barrier with a 12v VR6. 
If anyone can provide links or references to any tuners or teams who have managed to better these numbers in ANY sort of NA configuration we'd like to know about it.
Also, If any engineers with access to CFD (or similar) tools would be interested in helping out with an interesting project we have, please email us.

With the amount of $ you would spend on building up the motor for just 250 if even that would be ridiculous and better off with FI.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (sh{}e)*

FI isnt allowed into certain classes for racing. it defeats the purpose.
BILDON, btw eveyrone cheats. Realtime racing would be nothing without the reground cams, different valves, etc.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Can you guys start an FSI thread? Thanks.

Well, it _was_ an idea. If everything else has been tried and we're still coming up with less power than most, then we need some other ideas. I threw in FSI.
If everyone is truly convinced that the VR6 head doesn't flow well (when it's really not that bad), then make those ports flow air only. Do something to increase its effeciency. I think that one of the reasons why we have a hard time making power is because half of the cylinders' fuel has to travel at least 4 inches longer. That's a lot of time to let it recollect, defeating the purpose of atomization.
I know that a lot of this sounds like ideas for better gas mileage, but I really think that better placement of the injectors will help. If anything, it will make it more uniform and will be easier to make a consistent fuel map for all 6 cylinders. 
I'm not trying to be argumentative or trying to thread jack, just throwing out something new. 


_Modified by VertigoGTI at 6:07 PM 6-26-2006_


----------



## sh{}e (Aug 7, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_FI isnt allowed into certain classes for racing. it defeats the purpose.
BILDON, btw eveyrone cheats. Realtime racing would be nothing without the reground cams, different valves, etc.

He was just talking N/A any way. Either way he chose the wrong platform to be N/A with good power.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 project*

Guys... dont mean to be rude so read this post a few times before flying off the handle. We would like to keep this thread as "lean" as possible. That means keeping the # of entries low. Tangential discussions are great but they dillute the content for future reference. In the end it would be nice if this were nothing more than a series up updates and gradual addition of data and FACTS culminating in a body of knowledge you can all benefit from instead of wading through the BS posts.







This could wind up being a very long thread so it will benefit us all to keep it concise.
We intend to share 90+% of the knowledge with you, the VR6 community, but if this thread gets unmanagable we may find that no longer makes sense for us to do. 
So, in short, please only post factual data or very relevent topics such as "we used this cam with this head spec and acheived these #s" or we compared these valves X with these valves Y and acheived a flow delta of Z ... "I heard Joe Blow made this much power"... is not useful information.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
OK so to address a few things here:
We are building a Volkswagen VR6 engine. If we wanted to design an entirely new cylinder head we'd no longer be helping anybody with their 12v VR6 power quest. We could bolt a new Acura V6 into a Golf but that misses the point doesn't it ?
The engine will use OE VW VR6 parts or racing parts spec'ed by Bildon Motorsport for VR6s only. Engine management will be provided by a re-engineered Motronic ECU running entirely new code (thanks Jacob and Jeff) and Bildon Motorsport timing and fuel maps. At some point if we determine we need to go with ITBs etc, we may install a stand-alone system like MoTec, however there is no huge power to be made in the EMS, only control and convenience.
When we build the stg 2 & stg 3 heads that will run consistently over 7500 RPM we will be using solid lifters, most likely from Arrow precision or CAT. Solid lifters dont make any power, they just allow for high RPM valve control.
People keep emailing us about cam selection for this project. We are no where near that yet. To quote a recent article in RaceEngineTech "There is no such thing as cam design, there is only valve lift profile design which requires a cam to provide the required valve lift profile" Fortunately with the bucket lifter design of VWs this is pretty straight forward. But a lot of porting, and intake work has to happen to determine what flow we will be working with before a valve lift profile can be designed.
>> Either way he chose the wrong platform to be N/A with good power.
Is it? That's the whole point. The VR6 is an air pump. It works great as a low RPM air pump, better than most. At high RPMs we suspect that not enough resources have been thrown at the perceived problem. (is there a problem?) The 2.8L VR6 makes good power for such a unique design. Given it's small displacement, fixed valve timing and being limited to 2v, it's output is right up there with most mass produced powerplants.
Physics is physics...there is no magic. A 3L V6 can and should make ~300 hp in mild race trim. ~400hp in a max revs, no idle full race motor.
We dont need FI, http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif we dont need nitrous, http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif we dont have to stamp Honda on it. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif We jut need to approach it in a scientific manner and address the issues as they are uncovered. 
So sit back relax







and check in every one and a while. This is going to take at least all summer.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: VR6 project (Bildon Motorsport)*

i agree with your last post and this will get out of hand quick if you dont check it this is an intake idea might not get past that but if you want better cyl filling have you thought about possably rifeling the intake runners this will create the tornado effect and ram more air in at a fster rate let me know what you think shoot it down whatever i have been looking for horsepower in my 12v as well


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 15, 2006)

*Re: VR6 project (VWDave88)*

What a great thread to read. I haven't seen any dyno charts of cars which made over 220whp. There are a lot of claims but I just never see the data. I have a motor that has a lot of stuff done to it but I made a moderate 209whp and torque was about the same. So info on the work: 12:1 compression though we had to cut some valve relieves so i don't know what the compression is exactly, schrick 276s, EIP 42mm intake valves and ported head, 70mm TB (stock is 63mm), stock headers but gasket matched, balanced, ceramic coated head, pistons, intake, exhaust, schrick manifold and tuned with tec2, runs on 94 octane pump gas. The funny thing is I put another stock header on which wasn't gasket matched and it pulled much better. I'm pretty maxed out of ideas to get more power for this street motor. Drivability is important as it's a daily. The idle is lumpy but rather nice sounding. It sounds like a V8 not a vw. lol 











_Modified by [email protected] at 9:25 PM 6-27-2006_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 project ([email protected])*

What about a piston that has less dish and more valve relief? Is there a way to make a piston where the entire perimeter of the top is parallel to the surface of the head instead of gaps? Even though the combustion chamber is in the piston and not the head, would a more uniform and tighter squish band improve swirl and effeciency?
Here's what I'm talking about...








Only the raised tip gets close to the head. The valve reliefs need to stay obviously, but what about the other 75% of the top that isn't close at all?


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: VR6 project (VertigoGTI)*

compression would be so high it would blow the motor or not even turn over 
a diesel piston is flush to the head with a combustion chamber inside the center of the piston it looks like a hole with a pyramid in the center of it and the compression on a stock VW TDI is 19.5/1 unleaded wont burn at that pressure i can post some pics of the piston if needed maybe in another thread


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 project (VWDave88)*

>> would a more uniform and tighter squish band improve swirl and effeciency?
This is something that can be investigated. Perhaps through software. The combustion chamber shape will have to remain to allow for proper flame propagation, however we may be able to decrease the diameter and raise the walls to provide more quench. This will be addressed when the stg 2 and 3 high compression motor is designed. 
>> compression would be so high it would blow the motor 
No, even with no dish the pistons are in at 15* angle so they never get near the block surface on the "far side" leaving quite a bit of room.


----------



## PhrequenC (Feb 4, 2005)

im interested in an all motor vr6. ill keep this thread watched so i can see what it takes.
is this more expensive than FI? i know it doesnt yeild results as quickly but it gets there.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (EvilEyez)*

If you take a VR6 piston and hang it from the wrist pin, will it stay level or will the side with the raised edge dropp down? I don't even know if they are weight balanced from the start. 
I'm wondering how hard it would be to get a 'blank' piston, cut the ring lands, set the wrist pin recess, mill it at a 7.5 degree angle for the top surface, _then_ cut your valve reliefs and dish.
Know someone with a machine shop?


----------



## WMTJ (Jan 26, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

In this quest to get more out of 12v tuning has anyone been able to find any information on solid lifter conversions?


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (WMTJ)*

these guys do solid lifter conversions
http://www.haywardperformance....2.jpg


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Northren vr6)*

It was quite a surprise to see that this question would be asked here







since our engine dept. has been building VW race engines for over 20 years. We of course have all the parts needed to convert a hydraulic VR6 over to a machincal lifter head.
Then we realized that this is because we dont advertise this end of the buisiness due to being booked up usually...but yes, we have a full service engine building operation concentrating on race engines almost exclusively. We also machine engine components for other engines builders and shops. The VR6 is actually an area where we have considerable experience. Our engine builder was working on the pre-production VR6 before it hit any showrooms.
And since we are on the topic, you folks in this VR6 forum may like to know that in addition to the big valve heads that we've been producing for other VW tuners (You'd know the names) we recently have decided to start selling our BVHs directly to consumers. We'd prefer to deal with shops and tuners still but we will sell directly to consumers we feel know what they are doing. (email if interested)
So back to solid lifters etc...
There are very few VR6 engines that require or even benefit from a mechanical setup so they are not "pushed" by us, however we do have the kits. Usually, once we explain to the customer what is required to get the hot lash adjusted they usually back out of wanting them.
We have 3 types of mechnical setups. 
- Follower with a 14mm post in it.
- Hydro follower with the piston removed and a solid stub inserted.
- Follower with a thin pad requiring longer valve stems.
All require shims/caps to set the valve lash precisely. 
This will all be sorted out in this project as we build the stg 3 engine which we expect to use a mechanical valvetrain. The builds will be fully documented here.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 11:13 PM 6-29-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 Solid Lifter*


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bump, I'd like to see this post last a while and not be condemned to the archives just yet.
What kind of peak RPM are you looking to get out of the engine?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (VertigoGTI)*

That will be determined buy the ability to flow air through the head at higher RPMs. We'll find out when we begin to explore the upper reaches. There is no "target" RPM. 
The sacrificial heads and intakes should be ready to begin working on this week. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Duzz (Mar 4, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Bildon Motorsport)*

Sounds good, maybe we'll get to see a vr6 that might actually make power with a good set of headers.







It would also be nice to see a true equal length exhaust mani....I don't think any of the current production models take into account the differences in the head...


----------



## EnIgMa '06 (May 13, 2004)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (CAUTIOUS)*

Someone in the Corrado forum with the S/N Morrado achieved a claimed 244 whp on his 3.2/3.3 liter VR6.
42/36 Schrick valves, 7 angle valve job, 199 ci displacement, 11:1 compression, knife edged stroker crank and hollow cams. There were tons of other mods but it was N/A. I didn't see any dyno charts, but he claimed that power in several topics.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (EnIgMa '06)*

Thx, sent Morrado a message. Hopefully he can anwer some questions. 
Olaf, if you're asking us, you'd better contact us offline







You must not have made the connection between Bildon and IPT! 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 4:37 PM 7-6-2006_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Olaf, if you're asking us, you'd better contact us offline







You must not have made the connection between Bildon and IPT!

That _may_ not be a bad thing. Maybe a collaboration between a few tuners will help get closer to the 275 hp goal.
I took a look at a crossection of a Honda head, it doesn't look like there is much of a 90 degree bend in the head for the intake passages for the rear cylinder bank. I know that the extra valve and combustion chamber is different on a Honda, but would it help to smooth out that 90 degree kink and make it an easier transition?
Here's the cutaway you provided vs. my photoshop for comparison. 

















The only thing I'd really be worried about is that passage that runs underneath the port, looks like it's about an inch before the valve opening.


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hey, I didn't know that anyone was still interested in n/a motors anymore!
Well this project has been a long time comming... so I will try to shed some light anywhere I can.
Firstly, if you are overboring the block: sonic testing revealed the #1 cylinder is thin on the exh. manifold side so 83.5-84mm is probably the safest bet and you can still use stock head gaskets at that point, anything more custom head gaskets are in order. And trust leaking copper gaskets, o-ringing blocks & heads gets under your skin. I'm using a graphite composite O-ringed gasket.
Secondly, the magic is in the headwork! Big valves either 42mm intake x 35mm exhaust or 41mmx35.5mm is the max. Discussion on the head is a long conversation solid lifters can and will yield 12-14k rpm ranges and with the right cams should give 300+bhp easily but is extensive work custom cams, valves, tappets etc. but it is so sexy...








Manifold: I went with the tried and true logic employed by VW torque is what you feel... I gutted a Euro 2.9L manifold including eliminating the spark plug holes, I chose to make all the runners equal because the head is still uneven lengths and a standalone ECU could work out any unforseeable flow issues. plus I WAS planning nitrous so I needed even distribution at that point. The log manifold tended to decrease your torque for a n/a motor which is why it is employed on the 1.8t & 2.7t motors as they can fill the head quickly... but the sound on a n/a motor is wicked.
Next up: install manual rack & pinion to eliminate drag and weight, remove heater core etc.
If you have any questons IM me I'll try my best to explain what I did... Glad to help










_Modified by Morrado at 8:38 PM 4-14-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Morrado)*

Morrado,
Thanks a lot. It's people like you that will help us make a few less wrong turns during this process. We appreciate you sharing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I've sent you some questions offline so that we can keep the dialog efficient. I'll then summarize for the group afterwards.
PS - Happy Friday All


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Bildon Motorsport)*

iam sorry but why not just go make some ITB'S. if you go standalone iam almost certain that more power can be delivered more so then a fully gutted 2.9 manifold. will your torq suffer if you do go individual throttle body ? iam sure a vr can afford to lose some tq in exchange for some nice head flow. I dont know but I have a ITB fetish


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (fourthchirpin)*

We're doing a full development program on the VR6.
Nothing is being ruled out for the stage 3 engines.
However since 90% of you and 90% of our customers have budgets and race regulation restrictions, we are also going to extract every last HP out of the OE components (Stage 1) before we begin to throw in the towel and assume that VW parts (modified) will never make power. 
While on the subject of "stages":
We're going to introduce some things soon for public consumption:
Stage 1 VR6 engine: 
A mostly stock engine anyone can build in their own garage or have their local mechanic do. 200+ CHP 'on the cheap" We've already built a number of these. Uses our own ECU tune.
Stage 2:
An engine with many minor mods that bridges the gap between mild and wild. Still streetable, a great basis for an engine to slowly add components to over time as we'll design it to be modular and easy to upgrade. Good engine for NASA GTS or HPDE type events.
Stage 3:
We're not going to shoot our mouth off about this one yet. Lots of research and testing to do before we get anywhere near predicting the final configuration and output.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 2:59 PM 7-7-2006_


----------



## Phishy (Jul 5, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Bildon Motorsport)*

stage 1 sounds promising for most of us http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif  200whp is obviously a magic number for a lot of people


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (VR6DPLMT.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EnIgMa ’06* »_I didn't see any dyno charts, but he claimed that power in several topics.

Has anyone???!








Anyway, gald to see this is still moving along. I always tried to keep a budget in mind, I could just not justify doing anymore to my old VR6 engine, oh well. I still look forward to seeing what happens here, good or bad results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
- Billy


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (VR6DPLMT.)*

Yoda I am not, but 3 chassis, 3 blocks, 2 heads, 4 machinist. 2 mechanics and $15k later I still love my 12V VR6 money pit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Some pics of what the final project may look like...my friend's rendition of my car...








Adapted tensioner










_Modified by Morrado at 8:37 PM 4-14-2008_


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (fourthchirpin)*

ITB's are sexy but I have my e30 ///M3 for that. Space issue for the VR. although I guess you could get rid of your A/C condensor and cut your core support... that I don't know.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_Big valves either 42mm intake x 35mm exhaust or 41mmx35.5mm is the max.

You could go larger, the PNW all motor guys have proved a few years ago. I am not saying that it is needed for performance, just that it can be done if your flow requires you to do so. I am sure Bill knows about it as he has been in contact with the builders.
Is there any chance you will ever post up a dyno for your project??????
I am sure many people who frequent the forums would love to see it...
- Billy


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 Solid Lifter Valve Diameter ????????????*

What do you guys want to see us produce for solid lifter valve diameters?
Please vote:
Intake Valve poll:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2701633
Exhaust Valve Poll:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2701642
And if we can keep the early valve specific discussions in that thread it would help to keep this thread here on track. Thanks for your cooperation guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:16 AM 7-8-2006_


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (billyVR6)*

I had 42mm intake valves, but there was NO room for error (ie. guide wear, lifter float, spring binding= catastrophe) as the seats/valves practically overlap. Better to be safe...
I am using the bronze alloy seats and I like my valves








In all the mistakes I've made in this VR6 maturation process I neglected to save and document alot of things, I think it happened after the $10k mark... but I am older and wiser now. I will provide everything from dyno to EGT readings if it fits your fancy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Hate to see people waste $$$ on things that don't work... Wish someone had stopped me a "car" ago.


----------



## Terrible One (Apr 25, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Morrado)*

Here is my contribution: Bernd Arndt's head for the Rabbit Drag car.....I had the pics saved, but I cannot find them. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1037427 
Just proof that yes, you can go bigger then a 42/35.5 setup


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Terrible One)*

The 12v Rabbit engine was one that Chris Riehl built or was involved with, correct? If so that motor made about 225whp with 288* cams, 85mm bore, 14-1, extrude honed manfold and it ran methanol. So being generous with the conversion this car made only about 260 crank... 
I've spoken with Chris at length. This is the exact wall







we were talking about at the beginning. A 24v head on this same engine spec. and you immediately are making far more than 320chp. 
The headwork we're doing is going to have to be "very interesting" to accomplish anything significant.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 Solid Lifter (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_I will provide everything from dyno to EGT readings if it fits your fancy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

I would fancy that for sure, post them up!!!

_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_Hate to see people waste $$$ on things that don't work.

True, a very common problem.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Data - step 1, Baselines*

We dug out a little dyno data since we'll need baselines as this discussion goes further. All test performed on conservatively setup Mustang Load Bearing Chassis dyno.
Test motor #1
High milage motor with slight blow by:
- 2.5" Straight pipe from OE downpipe to Flowmaster.
- CAI 2.5" tube to MAF, cone filter in fender.
- GIAC Chip
*
152 WHP = 175 CHP* @5800
Notes: The GIAC actually made less power at the top end. It dialed in a lot of advance and made more power up to about 5500 and then start trailing off what was optimal as it was too rich (GIAC is trying to keep people from burning up their motors if lean) Also, knock sensor was pulling timing back (erratic).
-----------------------------------------
Test #2
Same motor. 3 months later.
* 153 WHP = 176 CHP* @6000
Notes: Checking dyno for consistency. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ign timing more stable at 33-35 deg
AFR =Rich but more consistent
Chip still too rich at top end.
------------------------------------------
Test #3
Fresh 2.9L stock engine. No porting, No cams.
- Balanced, blueprinted, cams properly indexed.
- slightly decked to ~10.5:1 (more w/ Mk4 gasket)
- 2.9L ABV pistons
- ABV TB
- alum pulleys
- no AC
- race valve job
Stock Chip: 153whp
GIAC Chip: 167whp
Our custom M2.9 tune: *190+whp = 218HP* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Next up is another baseline of the same stock 2.9L and then tests of some intake tubing mods due to suggestions we received working with some World Challenge teams.
We're going ot take this engine as far as we can in stock form before we begin the hacking and cutting.
We're JUST getting started.


----------



## markj2k4 (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Data - step 1, Baselines (Bildon Motorsport)*

you need to hook me up with that chip i have a very similar motor but with the addition of schrick 268*cams, schick hd springs and suptertech undercut valves. i could seriously benifit from said chip







giac may not be doing it for me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
good job guys i cant wait till the 275 mark is hit


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: Data - step 1, Baselines (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Our custom M2.9 tune: *190+whp = 218HP* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Next up is another baseline of the same stock 2.9L and then tests of some intake tubing mods due to suggestions we received working with some World Challenge teams.
We're going ot take this engine as far as we can in stock form before we begin the hacking and cutting.
We're JUST getting started.









w/ proper cams you should be pretty close to 235-240hp..then w/ new valves you should be good to go...i guess its all in the software are you running a SEM?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Data - step 1, Baselines (fatfreevw)*

>> you need to hook me up with that chip
It's not a generic "chip". It took over 6 hours of tuning to get the lean spots smoothed out and the other maps adjusted and it' still not done. We have some major flat spots at lower RPMs that still need to be addressed. This tune is for this exact engine. As soon as we change the intake or exhaust it could totally change. These engines are very finicky in this regard due to (we think) the odd pressure waves generated by the odd cylinder head.








However, having said that. We do plan to offer tunes for our engine packages. More on that later. PS - If you are in the NorthEast and want to see these kind of NA gains. Contact Jefnes3 here via IM. He was instrumental in keeping us from having to go stand alone.
>> w/ proper cams you should be pretty close to 235-240hp..then w/ new valves you should be good to go..
With the next engine we're about to start with cam and head testing. 240 *crank* HP wont be hard. It's the big numbers that are going to be the challenge.


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Update....
Over the next few weeks we'll be measuring the intakes and exhausts in more detail to improve the model. We'll also begin some porting and adding that data to the model. Finally we will be destroying some intakes and a cyl head to get cutaway measurements.








If anyone has a damaged cylinder head that they would like to donate to the cause, we will pay for all shipping and give the donor a $50 gift certificate for any parts purchased through Bildon.com http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I have a spare head you can hack up. And if you want, you can mic my old head before dissection http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (vdubjb)*

>> jeffnes can do this soley on a dyno w/ a/f?
It's no different than tuning with a stand-alone engine mangement system. With the ECU tuning software that's out there you can re-program the factory Motronic like it was a MoTec. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'm not sure why the VW guys guys here have not been doing this for a long time when it's common place in Europe. When we decided we needed to reprogram our ECUs we did a little research. It was either purchase Digiview or WinOLS and start hacking or call up Jeff and accelerate the process. Why re-invent the wheel?
Out come the laptops, the emulator, the dyno and and the chip burner. Your tools are the RPM & Wide Band OXS logger, the editor software and VAGCOM diagnostic software.
Run, tweak, save .... wash, rinse, repeat.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

>> Oh, PS - a short runner "log" intake is not the answer.
I want to take this earlier comment back








What I meant was that a log alone was not the answer. It is definitely a real option for the top end improvements we're looking for. ITBs are costly and the "packaging" is a real pain. Not to say ITBs wont be better or wont be utilized, but a log will be examined and tested thoroughly before a switch to ITBs is deemed necessary.
So.... any good welder/fabricators out there want to help? We can do this fab. in house but part of the point in this excercise is to get the VR6 community involved and interested...no better way to do that than to jump in and get your hands dirty. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

wont a log style manifold hurt low end torque? (which is useful on hilly courses...thats why BMW does well in the season...that and the drivers help...even though i can take em







)


----------



## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_wont a log style manifold hurt low end torque? (which is useful on hilly courses...thats why BMW does well in the season...that and the drivers help...even though i can take em







)

Only if the runners aren't designed properly... according to what I've read from non-vortex sources.
I have some ideas for intake manifolds that I'm going to build and test at the end of August. The initial versions are going to be ABS/PVC mockups and tested with a G-TECH (because I can't afford dyno time) and the final version will be built from aluminum by a friend of mine. The final version will be dynoed against a baseline with the stock manifold on my car.
It shouldn't be too difficult to make good power with a completely redesigned manifold. I've done a fair amount of reading on optimal runner lengths, plenum volume, etc and it doesn't looke like anything built for the VR6 really takes full advantage of that. the stock manifold certainly doesn't and people are making power modifying it, so starting over should yield more.


_Modified by Sozsei at 11:17 AM 7-11-2006_


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Sozsei)*

i would think, if you can take the length of the runners, including the head(start of head to center of valve), the airspeed would be equal. But i still dont know if its going to generate the torque. I hope it does and am eager to see the results


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

>> Only if the runners aren't designed properly... 
Exactly. Your "torquey" 8v GTI has a factory "log" that we call a plenum.
The design of course is everything. You have the ability to improve or degrade the quality everywhere.
>> The initial versions are going to be ABS/PVC mockups and tested with a G-TECH 
Testing on the car with a G-Tech is OK but I'm curious as to how you are going to create intake runners with a nice bellmouth from PVC? If you have a means to do that then great idea http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> thats why BMW does well
BWMs do well in road racing because the 3 series is one of the worlds best sedan chassis/suspension combos. Once tuned, it is putting down more power (mod for mod) than a VR6 through a well balanced chassis with a multi-link rear suspension. This is far more efficient than trying to do everything through the front of a nose heavy FWD pig








Anyway back to logs, designed properly it should gain enough flow that torque will be improved as well. Yes if we optimized one for top end only you may have to sacrifice bottom end torque. We can and we may design multiple types. And even with a loss of bottom end, if you make enough up at the top to warrant it, all you need to do is alter your gear ratios (or R&P) to stay in the powerband.


----------



## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_ i would think, if you can take the length of the runners, including the head(start of head to center of valve), the airspeed would be equal. But i still dont know if its going to generate the torque. I hope it does and am eager to see the results
That's what I want to do. I have a spare head in my garage so I can measure all of that stuff out. the rear bank is around 10 cm further back in the head than the fronts. A total runner length of about 39 cm should give a torque peak of about 5000 rpm. That's a pretty long runner, really. The plenum willl probably end up on top of the valve cover. This is why I don't think the C2 or Schimmel manifolds will work very well for a naturally aspirated motor - the runners are very short and equal length so the torque peak would be something ridiculous like 10,000 rpm on the front bank and 7,500 rpm on the rears. 
I can't wait for summer school to end so I can focus on more important things, like building plastic manifolds.


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## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
>> The initial versions are going to be ABS/PVC mockups and tested with a G-TECH 
Testing on the car with a G-Tech is OK but I'm curious as to how you are going to create intake runners with a nice bellmouth from PVC? If you have a means to do that then great idea http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


I'd probably have to form the mouths out of something else and epoxy them to the plastic tubing, then sand it all smooth. Getting the plastic pipe to bend the way I want it to is another problem I foresee but there might be some other cheap materials I can get for that purpose, but the diameter needs to be right. It might come down to trying one version _without_ all of the fancy details and seeing how it does against the stock manifold, then adding those on the aluminum version knowing they will help. It should be fun doing this. I have a spare TB so switching back and forth between mockups and stock won't be too painful. Anything I learn will be shared, although you guys might be beyond that point by then.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Sozsei)*

with all this head/intake talk. iam kind of hungry to know what sort of block work will be involved. more so to the crank. knife edged? coated? anything to make oil less adhesive to the crank/etc.? all will there be any coatings in the top end (head/intake)?


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

one thing i learned about working @ realtime is all the race teams cheat. Obviously power to weigh ratio is important(cough bmw, cough honda), but with a good driver (who actually takes all the weight transfer into effect) they can be beaten... that and a damn near perfectly balanced car, which is going to be difficult with the VR and FWD...


----------



## Halpem (May 15, 2002)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_one thing i learned about working @ realtime is all the race teams cheat. Obviously power to weigh ratio is important(cough bmw, cough honda), but with a good driver (who actually takes all the weight transfer into effect) they can be beaten... that and a damn near perfectly balanced car, which is going to be difficult with the VR and FWD...

These guys Cheat???? Never, Ok, maybe a little, ok , maybe more


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## actionVR6 (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: Data - step 1, Baselines (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Test #3
Fresh 2.9L stock engine. No porting, No cams.
- Balanced, blueprinted, cams properly indexed.
- slightly decked to ~10.5:1 (more w/ Mk4 gasket)
- 2.9L ABV pistons
- ABV TB
- alum pulleys
- no AC
- race valve job


190whp on stock head/cams and stock 2.9 is very impressive.. 
You listed race valve job.. could you explain what size? 
And above all could you please post a *dyno* of that motor?
Thanks! 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Data - step 1, Baselines (actionVR6)*

>> 190whp on stock head/cams and stock 2.9 is very impressive..
Thanks. Attention to detail matters.
>> You listed race valve job.. could you explain what size?
Bone stock unmodified valves on this one. 
>> And above all could you please post a dyno of that motor?
Here is the data... 
----------- Test Dataset #1 -----------
--- Vehicle ---
License Plate : vr6 race c
Yr/Make/Model : / / 
--- Test Data ---
Filter Mode : FIR
Filter Level: 30
Engine Speed, Eng Torque, Eng Power , AFR
RPM, Ft-Lbs, HP, Volts
Run #, 1, 1, 1
3000, 144, 82, 13.3
3025, 145, 83, 13.3
3050, 146, 84, 13.3
3075, 145, 85, 13.3
3100, 145, 86, 13.3
3125, 146, 86, 13.3
3150, 146, 87, 13.2
3175, 145, 88, 13.2
3200, 145, 88, 13.2
3225, 146, 89, 13.2
3250, 146, 90, 13.2
3275, 146, 91, 13.2
3300, 147, 92, 13.3
3325, 147, 93, 13.3
3350, 148, 94, 13.3
3375, 149, 96, 13.3
3400, 150, 97, 13.3
3425, 151, 99, 13.3
3450, 152, 100, 13.3
3475, 154, 101, 13.3
3500, 155, 103, 13.2
3525, 156, 105, 13.1
3550, 157, 106, 13.1
3575, 158, 107, 13.1
3600, 158, 108, 13.1
3625, 159, 110, 13.1
3650, 160, 111, 13.1
3675, 160, 112, 13.1
3700, 161, 114, 13.1
3725, 162, 115, 13.1
3750, 163, 116, 13.2
3775, 161, 115, 13.3
3800, 155, 112, 13.5
3825, 151, 110, 13.6
3850, 149, 109, 13.6
3875, 148, 109, 13.7
3900, 149, 111, 13.5
3925, 155, 116, 13.3
3950, 162, 122, 13.1
3975, 166, 125, 13.0
4000, 169, 128, 12.9
4025, 171, 131, 12.9
4050, 173, 134, 12.9
4075, 174, 135, 12.9
4100, 175, 136, 12.9
4125, 176, 138, 12.9
4150, 177, 139, 12.9
4175, 178, 141, 13.0
4200, 178, 143, 13.0
4225, 179, 144, 13.0
4250, 179, 144, 13.0
4275, 179, 145, 13.0
4300, 180, 147, 13.1
4325, 180, 148, 13.1
4350, 180, 149, 13.1
4375, 180, 150, 13.1
4400, 181, 151, 13.1
4425, 181, 152, 13.1
4450, 181, 153, 13.1
4475, 180, 154, 13.1
4500, 180, 154, 13.1
4525, 179, 154, 13.1
4550,  179, 155, 13.1
4575, 179, 156, 13.1
4600, 179, 157, 13.1
4625, 179, 157, 13.1
4650, 179, 158, 13.1
4675, 179, 159, 13.1
4700, 179, 160, 13.1
4725, 179, 161, 13.1
4750, 179, 162, 13.1
4775, 179, 162, 13.1
4800, 179, 163, 13.1
4825, 179, 164, 13.1
4850, 179, 165, 13.1
4875, 179, 166, 13.1
4900, 179, 167, 13.1
4925, 179, 168, 13.1
4950, 180, 169, 13.1
4975, 180, 171, 13.1
5000, 181, 172, 13.1
5025, 181, 173, 13.1
5050, 181, 174, 13.2
5075, 181, 175, 13.1
5100, 181, 175, 13.1
5125, 181, 176, 13.1
5150, 180, 176, 13.1
5175, 179, 176, 13.1
5200, 179, 177, 13.1
5225, 178, 178, 13.1
5250, 178, 178, 13.1
5275, 178, 178, 13.1
5300, 177, 179, 13.2
5325, 176, 179, 13.2
5350, 176, 179, 13.2
5375, 175, 179, 13.2
5400, 174, 179, 13.3
5425, 174, 179, 13.3
5450, 173, 179, 13.3
5475, 172, 179, 13.3
5500, 171, 179, 13.2
5525, 170, 179, 13.2
5550, 169, 178, 13.1
5575, 167, 178, 13.1
5600, 166, 177, 13.1
5625, 166, 178, 13.1
5650, 166, 179, 13.1
5675, 166, 180, 13.0
5700, 167, 181, 13.0
5725, 166, 181, 13.0
5750, 165, 181, 13.0
5775, 164, 181, 13.0
5800, 163, 180, 13.0
5825, 161, 178, 13.0
5850, 158, 176, 12.9
5875, 156, 175, 12.9
5900, 155, 174, 12.9
5925, 154, 174, 12.9
5950, 155, 175, 12.9
5975, 156, 177, 13.0
6000, 157, 179, 13.0
6025, 159, 182, 13.0
6050, 160, 184, 13.0
6075, 161, 187, 13.0
6100, 162, 188, 13.0
6125, 162, 188, 13.0
6150, 161, 189, 13.0
6175, 161, 189, 13.0
6200, 160, 189, 13.0
6225, 160, 189, 13.0
6250, 159, 189, 13.1
6275, 158, 188, 13.0
6300, 156, 187, 13.0
6325, 155, 187, 13.1
6350, 155, 187, 13.0
6375, 154, 187, 13.0
6400, 154, 187,  13.1
6425, 153, 187, 13.0
6450, 152, 186, 13.1
6475, 151, 186, 13.1
6500, 150, 186, 13.1
6525, 150, 186, 13.1
6550, 149, 186, 13.1
6575, 149, 187, 13.2
6600, 148, 186, 13.2
6625, 147, 186, 13.2
6650, 146, 185, 13.2
6675, 146, 185, 13.2
6700, 145, 185, 13.2
6725, 144, 184, 13.2
6750, 143, 183, 13.2
6775, 142, 182, 13.2
6800, 140, 182, 13.2
6825, 139, 181, 13.1
6850, 139, 181, 13.1
6875, 138, 180, 13.1
6900, 136, 178, 13.1
6925, 132, 174, 13.2
6950, 128, 170, 13.1
6975, 125, 166, 13.1
7000, , ,


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## 93wolfsburg (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (dankvwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dankvwguy* »_if dart can build a honda b18 to put out 280whp n/a you HAVE to be able to do it with a VR6...

how much torque did it make and at what rpm


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (93wolfsburg)*

>> if dart can build a honda b18 to put out 280whp n/a you HAVE to be able to do it with a VR6...
OK let's not start down this ridiculous path. If RenaultF1 can build a 2.4L engine with 750hp then surely a 2.9L VR6 can ...







Seriously the VR6 head is a unique animal. Comparisons with anything else are most likley not useful.
OK so check this out... I've been working with BennyB getting measurements of various components in order to build a more accurate model. This is an *animation* of velocity for the VR6's #1 cylinder intake/exhaust tract over one complete engine cycle. From left to right it illustrates the velocity at the intake just after the throttle body through the plenum and head, out the exhaust and ending at the downpipe's collector. Sorry about the text, we'll see if it cant be oriented properly and I'll upload it again. Click to play:

The ‘bouncing’ of the velocity over the cycle is due to reflections and interactions with other cylinders. Many thanks to BennyB who has provided the Ricardo Wave services!








We hope that as the model is refined we can begin to run "experiments" comparing various changes to see if we can make improvements that can then be backed up with physical porting, fabrication etc. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:49 PM 7-11-2006_


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## AzradoVr666 (Apr 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

very interesting plot...where will the database of this info be stored?


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (AzradoVr666)*

>> ..where will the database of this info be stored?
On the dyno and our website.


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Well took the above listed Corrado w/: 83.5mm piston x 95.6mm crank, 41x35.5mm intake/exh. valves, log manifold, TEC3 (base program) 24lb injectors for a test drive to the alignment rack...nice! 
It loses traction in 1st from 1500 at 4500 in 2nd & 3rd gear it breaks lose again surging to 8K! Traction is a problem even with a Peloquin LSD.
Dynapack 4000 Chassis Dyno appointment next Tuesday... I'll keep you posted!










_Modified by Morrado at 11:05 AM 7-12-2006_


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Sozsei)*


_Quote »_A total runner length of about 39 cm should give a torque peak of about 5000 rpm. That's a pretty long runner, really.

This is true, however, the stock VR runners are 42mm, IIRC. 
If space wasn't a problem, I wonder if a split plenum between the long and short runners would be beneficial. I'll draw something up in CAD and see how it looks. If I can, I'll take my dissected manifold and take some volume measurements for the long ports and short ports.


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## EVIL6 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

I'm working on breaking the 200whp barrier with my mk4 12valve hoopty. The dyno below is with Atomic Motorsport's BVH and custom ground cams. Using an Apexi Select and a wideband O2 to tune. 
Next stage, I'm in the process of having headers modded for the mk4. A high flow cat will also go on, and possibly another set of cams. And then we'll dyno again. I'm hoping that this setup will get me right over 200 whp. 
After that, I'm going for more with a bigger bottom end... haven't figured out all the details yet... standalone for sure. This is a slow process for me since this is an expensive hobby. But hey. It's way more fun than slapping on a super charger or turbo. Just the sounds alone from the intake, BVH, and headers is something no FI car give me.


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
If space wasn't a problem, I wonder if a split plenum between the long and short runners would be beneficial. I'll draw something up in CAD and see how it looks. If I can, I'll take my dissected manifold and take some volume measurements for the long ports and short ports.

I actually kicked around the idea of a dual t-body/dual log, w/ a lower supplying air to the exhaust side and top log to the fan side... thus giving it the extra length, voila! It would act as individual air supplies for essentially 2 banks, eliminating some of the airflow disruptions/sharing. What do you guys think?? I could play around with the fabrication (but it would be function over form...as it would look crazy!







)


_Modified by Morrado at 11:35 PM 7-11-2006_


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Morrado)*

that sounds like a really good idea. i would definitely play around with ideas like this if i had the tools to do so...and the standalone management...
i really think the only way we'll be able to hit high numbers is with equal length runners. definitely try it out and see if its beneficial.


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## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

The power is limited in the VR6 by the ports, (intake and exhaust) simple, they are small by any engines standards.
The rest of the engine parts are not the problem, it comes down to airflow and these VR6 ports suck.
I have worked on lots of these heads, and big valves only help airflow in the lower to mid lifts and then the total airflow is restricted by the port crossectional area when you try to rev it up to get bigger HP numbers, Normally aspired.
If you could get into the port to open them up. (Hard to do)
Running extrudehone putty thru them for days and days may open them up enough, but would probably cost a fortune to do.
Something else I have not seen done for the VR,
(is correct exhaust tuning).
All the short ports should be collected together as should the long ports, but to simplify manufacturing of headers they (the factory and aftermarket) group the first three ports and the last three ports.
This way the engine could be tuned better for power,
it is a V6 engine and each bank of the engine in this case has to be tuned differently for it weird port lengths, this would help power somewhat.
The factory groups the intake ports into the intake manifold correctly, but the head is the real problem.
But the big deal is the ports airflow, open up the head and the power will come up, it's just hard to do with these ports.
LHP http://www.haywardperformance.com


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## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_This is true, however, the stock VR runners are 42mm, IIRC. 
If space wasn't a problem, I wonder if a split plenum between the long and short runners would be beneficial. I'll draw something up in CAD and see how it looks. If I can, I'll take my dissected manifold and take some volume measurements for the long ports and short ports.

Thanks for the runner length info. I don't have a spare manifold to cut apart and measure yet and I've been wondering about that. I'd be very interested in seeing the results of your measurements if you could post them up when you get them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I've wondered about a dual-plenum manifold as well but the design I first pictured might present some some hood clearance issues...or maybe not. Dual TB's would also mean they should each flow half as much air as a singular TB and a custom Y-shaped intake tube would have to be fabricated downwind of the MAF sensor, which might outweigh the advantages of the dual plenum design... or it might not!








Then when you throw acoustics into the equation, things start getting fun.







This is why I just plan to try a bunch of different things and see what works, then hone that design or combine ideas.


----------



## DubbinChris (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: (Sozsei)*

This is a great forum and I'm learing lots from it. Keep up all the good work.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (LHP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_I actually kicked around the idea of a dual t-body/dual log, w/ a lower supplying air to the exhaust side and top log to the fan side... thus giving it the extra length, voila! It would act as individual air supplies for essentially 2 banks, eliminating some of the airflow disruptions/sharing.

I reffered to it as the "hammer head" manifold as that is exactly what it looked like. Thought about this a few years back, we were looking to run it with stock engine management and chip and still be able to use a single MAF, just never found the time to follow through.
I also have an equal length manifold mocked up to fit an A3 VR6 without having to cut or relocate anything. I couldn't get the correct runner length that I was looking for the third harmonic so I just ditched it. Bernd's 24v corrado utilizes this type of manifold, different design, same concept.
In all of that digging around is when I realized this...

_Quote, originally posted by *LHP* »_The factory groups the intake ports into the intake manifold correctly, but the head is the real problem.

I was fine with an OEM manifold for what I was doing, aside from the TB neck being terrible. I do not think many people realize that the baffle/runners in the manifold where there for a reason.

_Quote, originally posted by *LHP* »_Something else I have not seen done for the VR,
(is correct exhaust tuning). All the short ports should be collected together as should the long ports, but to simplify manufacturing of headers they (the factory and aftermarket) group the first three ports and the last three ports.

Yes, a common problem some will market headers as equal length, that stands true that all the primary pipes are equal to each other in spec and length but nowhere close to making the exhaust pulse even between the long and short ports in the head.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:59 AM 7-12-2006_


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Sozsei)*

Well two ITB and double intake manifold would work well, but the air flow is still going to be restricted by a Y pipe. Possibly get the car running on MAP isntad of MAF(stand alone) and have the MAP sensor located in a joined spot? However that joined spot, again, is going to have to NOT be restrictive and somehow give accurate readings. Otherwise its just relocating the Y pipe onto the intake manifold. How about a split level design after the joined part. 
Example...take a look @ a mk3 manifold. Instead of splitting it left and right, split it from top to bottom. however have the shorter lines on top(or bottom)and vice versa. Then you could take the map sensor (could even run MAF still) and put it in the middle before it splits off... i hope i am getting my point across maybe my crappy diagram will help








again you would want the short bank and long bank to be equal length all the until the union part comes up(starting from block)...


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

*Manifold:* I think I will try to mock up a design of a twin tube dual throttle body, but it will have to be monitored via MAP sensors and standalone. 1 manifold for the 3 front cyl. & 1 manifold for the rear 3. I understand VW's concept for the uneven runners inside the manifold, but the spark plug post seem like pillars directly in the way and makes no sense except... hey you have to change these things sometime. They eliminated the obstruction for other designs.
Hopefully I can clearance the hood. 
*Exhaust:* I figured that uneven lengths for the appropriate exhaust ports that merged 6(3&3config.)into 2 into an X pipe, would balance the exhaust pulse... placement would depend on where you want the rpm curve to respond. Burns Stainless is good at mocking that up. 
All of this is Stage III of course.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (EVIL6)*

>> The dyno below is ...
Have you done anything with your intake? We've seen much higher output from a setup like yours. We'll post those figures later.
>> The power is limited in the VR6 by the ports
Lance thanks for adding to the discussion. I'm not personally familiar with HP but after reviewing your site it appears I should have been








Do you have any flow or velocity data you would be willing to share? Not asking for any port design info, just the resulting data. It would be helpful to see what another shop has been able to extract from this head using the proper tools. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
We've done a lot of porting in the past but have never tried to build an NA engine with the big number target we set here. So our porting in the past was always sufficient for the requirements. We have simply done what any head porter would do. After installing larger seats we made sure the seat blended smoothly into the bowl. The bowl radius was altered to match the new valve seat size while paying very close attention that we did not reduce the venturi effect in anyway. The other area we concentrated on was of course the short side radius. This is where we gained a lot. The exact details of course are proprietary.








As you eluded to, a high power motor is going to have to have the entire port length dealt with. However before we go hogging things out we want to do some simulation analysis to determine HOW these ports are flowing and HOW they might flow given certain changes. If we can get accurate models developed it will save months and $100s of dollars.
The VR6 files I had here were lost a while back due to a zip drive failure... so much for backups!







However, we'll be generating more data now that we're playing with the VR6 again.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Gas Velocity*

Here's another animation of the gas velocity in the entire system. (600k)
http://www.bildon.com/pub/cyclevelocitymap.mpg


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## Halpem (May 15, 2002)

*Re: Gas Velocity (Bildon Motorsport)*

Cool software , but Can I ask the question and not sound dumb ,
Do the colors mean the speed of the air flow ??


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Gas Velocity (Halpem)*

Yes, look at the legend at the bottom, mate. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (Bildon Motorsport)*

the variance after the 2-3 split on the midle cylinders is interesting...nice data...mind if i asked how you were able to log it?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Gas Velocity (fatfreevw)*

>> mind if i asked how you were able to log it?
We didnt log it. It is a model we are building to simulate the VR6 engine.
Read my posts on pages 3-5 for more info. 
From Ricardo...
Building further on its strength in developing the most advanced computer-aided-engineering (CAE) software, Ricardo plc - one of the world's foremost independent automotive engineering and management consulting firms - announced the release of the latest version of its WAVE engine simulation software
Ricardo Software's on-going commitment to provide the most advanced 1-D gas dynamics software in the industry.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Gas Velocity (fatfreevw)*


_Quote »_Example...take a look @ a mk3 manifold. Instead of splitting it left and right, split it from top to bottom. however have the shorter lines on top(or bottom)and vice versa. Then you could take the map sensor (could even run MAF still) and put it in the middle before it splits off... i hope i am getting my point across maybe my crappy diagram will help


That's EXACTLY what I was thinking about if a single throttle body was used. BTW: Awesome diagram! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








If a second TB was employed, we wouldn't have to worry about a split plenum or staggered runners in a single manifold. Have cylinders 1-3-5 in one manifold and 2-4-6 in the other. Since 1-3-5 are the rear bank and need the short runners, put that manifold on the bottom. 2-4-6 need the long runners since they're the front bank. Place the plenum of that manifold on the top, the extra height will make it easier to place the longer runners. 
Plus you won't have to worry about the pulses from the short runners interfering with the long runners. 
If needed, do the same thing for the exhaust manifold, 6-2-1 style with the short runners taking the long pipes.
I wonder if it'd be easier to work with a VR6 if we just treated it like two 3-cylinder engines.


----------



## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_this is probably the best thread the vortex has had in years... keep it up guys! I cant wait to see what happens! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


same here, i think it was about time some one finds a way to get the most N/A power out of a VR6 engine


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

>> care to give the flow bench #'s of the 190whp engine.
We dont have any for that head. Except for the valve seats it's bone stock!


----------



## VW_tayder (Oct 4, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

ohh..well please do when u get it...that is one thing that is way over looked here and i can find very little info on.
i guess ppl think that " yea i got a ported head"


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VW_tayder)*

Fear not, When we start doing head work on the test engines we'll give you more data than you'll know what to do with


----------



## windsor96vr6 (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_

Yes, a common problem some will market headers as equal length, that stands true that all the primary pipes are equal to each other in spec and length but nowhere close to making the exhaust pulse even between the long and short ports in the head.
_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:59 AM 7-12-2006_


I got this header from Jason Whipple. I tried to call him tonight to get my story straight, but no answer.
I am not sure if this was built by that guy in Charlottesville VA who designed the turn2 bvh, or someone that Jason met while working at AP britts in Sonoma. I remember he had it made for his corrado (search ogvw for the classified of the corrado for motor specs) 
they made the primaries 1 3/4" thinking it would work on the bored motor, but dyno testing proved the primaries were a little too big. 
The part I am unsure of is how they came up with the design, but I believe it was built this way to tune the exhaust pulses, and accounts for the length differences. I am going to try it on my 3.0 s/c syncro vs the stock set up. Jason seems to think the big primaries would be perfect for a s/c set up.
of course I will have to chop it up to clear the prop shaft, but might be willing to let bildon try it out on this set up before I do that. I doubt it would help, due to it not working on the other n/a motor it was built for.
pics


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (VertigoGTI)*

I think the problem in the dual log designs is the firing order of the engine. All 3 exhaust side cylinders fire in a row, then the intake side in a row. So a dual log intake would have 3 fast pulses, then nothing for half a cycle. There could be issues with filling the plenum volume with air at high RPM. The first in the sequence would have plenty of air, but the third would be pulling on a vacuum already = not enough air = runs rich.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (BennyB)*

i'm not sure if this will come out right.. but: would running say itb's on each cylinder and also running 6 seperate pipes off the exhaust side that don't do a 3-2-1 cancel out any kind of pulses that are interfering with the other cylinders? i know it wouldnt be practical in a car, but it might be interesting for testing on an engine dyno.. that way each cylinder intake/exhaust would be a straight path in and out without the others bouncing off of it?
i was pondering this on the way to work. maybe i'm crazy?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (Slayer)*

on the exhaust side, the pulses usually work together with a positive effect by pulling some gasses away from the cylinder before the piston starts upwards to push them out. The intake side doesn't really work that way, so thats why ITBs are used so often.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (Slayer)*

for torque, backpressure plays a part in the exhaust. Otherwise people could just run with no exhaust manifold good idea though...keep em coming


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (windsor96vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *windsor96vr6* »_I got this header from Jason Whipple. I tried to call him tonight to get my story straight, but no answer.
I am not sure if this was built by that guy in Charlottesville VA who designed the turn2 bvh, or someone that Jason met while working at AP britts in Sonoma. I remember he had it made for his corrado (search ogvw for the classified of the corrado for motor specs)

Yes, saw that header years ago when I was racing product for Turn2. That header was to be tested on my engine and Anthony Dowd's engine, we never got to try it because initial runs that they did showed no gain to warrent the production. Jim told me that the header was going to have to marketed for $1200 +/- and would be a very tough sell.


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
>> jeffnes can do this soley on a dyno w/ a/f?
It's no different than tuning with a stand-alone engine mangement system. With the ECU tuning software that's out there you can re-program the factory Motronic like it was a MoTec. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_*I'm not sure why the VW guys guys here have not been doing this for a long time when it's common place in Europe.* _When we decided we needed to reprogram our ECUs we did a little research. It was either purchase Digiview or WinOLS and start hacking or call up Jeff and accelerate the process. Why re-invent the wheel?
Out come the laptops, the emulator, the dyno and and the chip burner. Your tools are the RPM & Wide Band OXS logger, the editor software and VAGCOM diagnostic software.


Just read the whole thread. Thank you to Bildon Motorsports for taking the time to share they're passion. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Where Im from, AZ, noone has the know how or equipment to do this that I have heard of. I'm in need of tuning soon I'm NA and had the head P+P when the head gasket was replaced. I'm not sure if the old school Nuspeed chip is gonna be ok to handle the changes though. I would much rather pay to have it tuned then let it run who knows what settings. Know of anyone within a few states of here?

I can delete this if it's ends up being useless content.



_Modified by ridefuel at 6:03 PM 7-16-2006_


----------



## HondaMeister (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: Gas Velocity (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_on the exhaust side, the pulses usually work together with a positive effect by pulling some gasses away from the cylinder before the piston starts upwards to push them out. The intake side doesn't really work that way, so thats why ITBs are used so often.

Its actually a negative pulse, or below atmospheric pulse, that pulls the gasses out. You dont want the negative pulse to hit the valve precisely as it opens tho, most of the gas is already waiting to exit the cylinder via its own expansion inertia. I have found that the negative pulse hitting the valve a few degrees before the intake valve opens works a little better, clears the cylinder of residuals.


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: Gas Velocity (HondaMeister)*

After reading quite a bit about this it is very clear that the main problem is head flow. This may sound stupid but why doesn't someone construct/design a new head. There were a few different companies in the eighties that made new heads for the 16v. 
Those heads made crazy hp numbers our of 16v engines. Obviously this would be a very costly procedure but if someone would be willing to do it then im sure this barrier would be broken quite easily. That's my 2 cents.


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: Gas Velocity (Captain16vGTI)*

I think the purpose was to keep cost down so that it would be attainable for the VW enthusiast at different stages... a custom head would cost about the same as a crate motor from you local Stealership. But hey if you have that kind of disposable income to contribute to the cause... I'm sure we'd all appreciate it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## HondaMeister (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: (Phishy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Phishy* »_random engine theory?? Try reading the thread, I think these guys are way past these kinds of generalizations.

Its not very random if it pertains to the engine in question.


----------



## Phishy (Jul 5, 2001)

*Re: (VWDave88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWDave88* »_the discusion isnt about wheather the engine can breathe better over header design the tread is that noone has hit this horse power level with a 12v VR6 even with head work cams and big bore what the purpose of the thread is to gain info from vr6 builders and tweakers to find out what works and what doesnt and try to find out why this motor wont allow high horse power and beat it bildon is working on the problem and its going to come down to air flow and harmonics its going to be a wall that most people could never see but we know its there im confident that the problem will be solved but not so sure on affordable stage kits for everyone but we will see keep up the good work 
and i have read every last post









obviously you didn't notice the punctuation?







J/K but it makes hard to read your post..


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (VWDave88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWDave88* »_the discusion isnt about wheather the engine can breathe better over header design the tread is that noone has hit this horse power level with a 12v VR6 even with head work cams and big bore what the purpose of the thread is to gain info from vr6 builders and tweakers to find out what works and what doesnt and try to find out why this motor wont allow high horse power and beat it bildon is working on the problem and its going to come down to air flow and harmonics its going to be a wall that most people could never see but we know its there im confident that the problem will be solved but not so sure on affordable stage kits for everyone but we will see keep up the good work 
and i have read every last post









Holy no periods Batman..


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Oil Control*

One of the things that's been on the back burner here may soon move up in priority... oil control for the VR6.
We've offered an oil cooler kit and crank scrapers for some time but now we are developing an entire solution. Oil pan, windage tray, crank scraper, baffles with constant pickup supply.
Derived from our need to make sure the oiling system in our stage 2 and 3 motors is providing un-aerated, uninterupted lubrication, we are currently working with one of our channel partners who has extensive experience with oil control in many type of cars and many types of racing.
We are developing the following:
- Oil Cooler Kit, with adapter, custom fit hoses, high quality reusable race quality fittings, High volume racing type oil cooler.
- Baffled steel oil pan designed for applications where heavy accel, decel and lateral G's are experienced. Trap doors and baffles hold oil around pickup and prevent oil "walking up" pan sides during high G maneuvers.
- Windage tray, designed to scavange oil from crank rotation, prevent oil foaming (windage) and permit rapid return of oil to pan.
- Crank scraper, (may be integrated with windage tray design) helps to shear oil off rotating crank, reducing parasitic losses.
Since these items are still in development we have no dyno data yet. However it's common for a properly designed system to yield over a 5% HP gain at the crank. We of course will be providing more info as the prototypes are tested. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*

i have read about coating the crank to make it less ....um whats the word, less sticky to the oil it picks up from the oil pan.


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_One of the things that's been on the back burner here may soon move up in priority... oil control for the VR6.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Didn't you tell me there was no need for this on the phone the other month?








When you design the system, make a version with the oil cooler mounted in the driver's side brake ducting area so that those of us with AC and and an intercooler can run it, and I'll buy it in a heartbeat. If you need a test car, i'll take a little road trip.
Finally, a decent oil pan / windage tray for the 12V ... no more "change engine" buzzars for me.
-m


----------



## EVIL6 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_One of the things that's been on the back burner here may soon move up in priority... oil control for the VR6.
We've offered an oil cooler kit and crank scrapers for some time but now we are developing an entire solution. Oil pan, windage tray, crank scraper, baffles with constant pickup supply.
Derived from our need to make sure the oiling system in our stage 2 and 3 motors is providing un-aerated, uninterupted lubrication, we are currently working with one of our channel partners who has extensive experience with oil control in many type of cars and many types of racing.
We are developing the following:
- Oil Cooler Kit, with adapter, custom fit hoses, high quality reusable race quality fittings, High volume racing type oil cooler.
- Baffled steel oil pan designed for applications where heavy accel, decel and lateral G's are experienced. Trap doors and baffles hold oil around pickup and prevent oil "walking up" pan sides during high G maneuvers.
- Windage tray, designed to scavange oil from crank rotation, prevent oil foaming (windage) and permit rapid return of oil to pan.
- Crank scraper, (may be integrated with windage tray design) helps to shear oil off rotating crank, reducing parasitic losses.
Since these items are still in development we have no dyno data yet. However it's common for a properly designed system to yield over a 5% HP gain at the crank. We of course will be providing more info as the prototypes are tested. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Is this being developed for obd1, and obd2 engines, keeping us mk4 VR6 AFP engines folks in mind ? Would be nice to have an AFP steel oil pan.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Oil Control (EVIL6)*

>> Didn't you tell me there was no need for this on the phone the other month?
Might have.







"Need" is the operative word.
Depends how you described your driving. Are you over 1G often and while at 7000+ RPM? 
>> keeping us mk4 VR6 AFP engines folks in mind ?
Sure will. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## EVIL6 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Didn't you tell me there was no need for this on the phone the other month?
Might have.







"Need" is the operative word.
Depends how you described your driving. Are you over 1G often and while at 7000+ RPM? 
>> keeping us mk4 VR6 AFP engines folks in mind ?
Sure will. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Thanks man. We may seem like a minority but we're out here, fans of the mk4 body and its AFP engine... whether it be N/A, S/C, or turbo charged. And there's plenty of us looking for a new intake manifold to replace this ridiculous plastic variable intake. The manifold is a much better design than the Schrick since it it's plastic. But yea, it's the plastic that's the weak spot of the design.


----------



## HondaMeister (Nov 30, 2003)

Try talking to Kevin Johnson @ Crank-scrapers.com. Hes very helpful and im sure he can help you with your project.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (HondaMeister)*

Kevin has made our scrapers for years. In fact we were the ones who helped him update his VR6 scrapers, as the design needed some improvement. You'll see a link to our site on his VR6 scraper page. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## HondaMeister (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Kevin has made our scrapers for years. In fact we were the ones who helped him update his VR6 scrapers, as the design needed some improvement. You'll see a link to our site on his VR6 scraper page. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Take the idea further and see if you can compartmentalize the crankcase.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_Dynapack 4000 Chassis Dyno appointment next Tuesday...


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Didn't you tell me there was no need for this on the phone the other month?
Might have.







"Need" is the operative word.
Depends how you described your driving. Are you over 1G often and while at 7000+ RPM? 


Sigh, I wish I had that much lateral grip. No, but I did tell you that I've made the buzzer happen on the street and on the track. Anyways, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for taking this project forward, keep us posted. 
-m


----------



## vr604 (Feb 19, 2003)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
We've offered an oil cooler kit and crank scrapers for some time but now we are developing an entire solution. Oil pan, windage tray, crank scraper, baffles with constant pickup supply. 

This is great news, I have been waitind and searching for something like this, I track my turbo vr and am always concerned about lubrication under long cornering loads and acceleration. 
As for the engineering and research thats going into this motor is incredible. It has me doing lots of research and all topics discussed.
This thread makes me want to build an NA vr motor just so i can listen to that NA tune again.......


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Oil Control (vr604)*

You mean that glorious VR6 howl? Seriously this is one of the reasons we built our Corrado. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Watch & listen to this!:








http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_Corrrado.mpeg


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Oil Control (vr604)*

Status...
We've been pretty busy lately with some non-VR6 engine related work and I wanted to take a minute to give a status report.
- We're still collecting some parts and some different ported configurations to measure and analyze. All this data will help to accelerate the R&D process. We appreciate those who have helped out so far. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
- Ben is still working on refining the model for the VR6. You've seen some of the rough models and simulations posted earlier. It will take far more time to fine tune. But that work continues. 
- We've come up with a solution to start work on the stage 2 engines. We are going to take one of our Golf 4 race shells and install a VR6 and gearbox in it and thats it. It'll be a bare roller that is easy to move, store and chassis dyno. We thought about using the engine dyno for development but the logistics of that are far more time consuming and expensive.
- We have a race this weekend at Watkins Glen and things will grind to a halt for a few days prior and after. Please wish the (virtually bone stock) 200hp VR6 Corrado luck as it goes up against the more developed BMW 325is, Porsche 944S, Gen2 RX7s and Integras. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*

Sorry, Im on my work PC and im's dont work,(I've tried about everything). I have a vr head with the cam journals chewed up. I'll sent it to you if you send me back a "cool" looking slice, for my desk.


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Man you keep better track of my appointments than me... 
Well my friends car has taken an unfortunate turn... while on the DynoJet after addressing the TEC3 advance, A/F mixtures, duty cycle etc. the motor took a dump (spewing excessive grey oil vapor out the breather and the exhaust) at 188.8whp/183wtq @5400rpm...








Compression test yielded low psi for 11:1CR pistons:
#1-110psi
#2-150psi
#3-125psi
#4-145psi
#5-130psi
#6-150psi
Any suggestions on where to troubleshoot first? We suspect the rings were not properly seated...


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_Well my friends car...

I thought you were putting your 3.2L with the 240whp claims on the rollers.
That's what I was looking to see posted up, that is why I took note as to when the dyno session was.


----------



## Phishy (Jul 5, 2001)

*Re: Oil Control (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_You mean that glorious VR6 howl? Seriously this is one of the reasons we built our Corrado. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Watch & listen to this!:








http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_Corrrado.mpeg

damn that thing is movin'


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

If there is confusion w/ my posts please IM me so we don't clutter up this post with non-info. It was my friend's car, he has my old pistons 83.5mm.
I am at 85mm... my head will be installed this weekend so it will be a few weeks before I dyno again.

_Modified by Morrado at 11:17 PM 7-19-2006_


_Modified by Morrado at 11:20 PM 7-19-2006_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Morrado)*

Good to know that 13.1:1 A/F was optimum for the 2.9 combo on the dyno. It'd be nice to see the advance numbers/rpm as well. Shame I didn't keep going with my car after reading this I think it would have made a good bit more power with something other then the 14.2:1 a/f it had.
One comment about the long/short intake manifolding and the firing order. Remember the motor is just an air pump, as long as you have the plenum sufficently large to feed the three cylinders entirely you won't have to worry about air starvation. The plenum will just 'refill' with atmospheric pressure when there are no intake events happening. Obviously it would have to be about twice as large as a plenum feeding 3 cyls with alternate firing orders, but it would work.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_ The plenum will just 'refill' with atmospheric pressure when there are no intake events happening. Obviously it would have to be about twice as large as a plenum feeding 3 cyls with alternate firing orders, but it would work. 

This might be fine for the all-out race motor on a high speed circuit, but for a daily driver it will cause a very noticible lag in throttle response.
An example:
The formula SAE cars are required to run a 20mm diameter restrictor (after the throttle). In order to get more power , we ran a relatively large 2.7L plenum vs the 0.6L displacement. We had to suffer with the throttle lag which becomes an issue when feathering it through a switchback or slalom. When we switched to a smaller plenum the next year, the throttle response was greatly improved and the drivers felt much more 'in control'
Edit: i'm not shooting down the idea, just bringing up some design issues to overcome.


_Modified by BennyB at 11:04 AM 7-20-2006_


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Hopefully that title grabbed some attention. We are looking for anyone who has ever managed to break the 250WHP/280CHP barrier with a 12v VR6. 
If anyone can provide links or references to any tuners or teams who have managed to better these numbers in ANY sort of NA configuration we'd like to know about it.
Also, If any engineers with access to CFD (or similar) tools would be interested in helping out with an interesting project we have, please email us.

We made 251WHP back in the early 90's with our High Compression 3.1L Engines...we also tested 240+WHP from our 3.0L High Compression setup. The 3.1L stroker setup made lots more torque than the 3.0L (roughly 30 less lb./ft.)…the 3.1L made almost the same HP and Torque. The dyno sheets were printed in EC in the mid 90’s) 
In fact during a build up of another car (1995 GTi with our 3.1L engine that we shipped complete to California) the EIP 3.1L GTi made MORE WHP and WTQ than a 2.8L SC GTi which was built and tested at the same shop on the same dyno!! This was kept very quiet by the magazine as a certain West Coast tuner had just released and began advertising their brand new SC kit using a Vortex blower (long before VF existed)…

On the 3.1L we used our Big-Valve High Flow Head, our HF T-body, our HF Intake Manifold (stock modded), ABT 95.6mm Crank (available at the time), Shcrick 276 Cams, our High Pressure Springs, Schrick Titanium retainers and seats, 11+:1 compression, and a custom 3" exhaust system. Car was a 1992 Corrado, Eprom was custom, dyno was Autothority's in VA (way back when). 
On the 3.0L we used the same combination as above except stock 90.3mm crank and Schrick 276 Cams and a custom 3" exhaust. Again Eprom was custom and car was also a 1992 Corrado. 
Both cars used the Autothority High Flow intake filter kit (very hot stuff back in the day and proved nearly 10whp on both cars).

Autothority in VA (independant 3rd party tuner) performed all dyno testing, this was circa 1994. 
-Rich
Edit: I should have added that the 3.1L had a Schrick 2-piece Header and Schrick SS HF cat...and the 3.0L had stock modified manifolds (ported) and the DP's were re-welded (to allow for additional porting) and ported. 


_Modified by eiprich at 5:22 PM 7-20-2006_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_Edit: i'm not shooting down the idea, just bringing up some design issues to overcome.

_Modified by BennyB at 11:04 AM 7-20-2006_

I think the throttle lag issue is more the location of the restrictor. Think about it a second, and it becomes more obvious.


----------



## actionVR6 (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_We made 251WHP back in the early 90's with our High Compression 3.1L Engines...we also tested 240+WHP from our 3.0L High Compression setup. The 3.1L stroker setup made lots more torque than the 3.0L (roughly 30 less lb./ft.)…the 3.1L made almost the same HP and Torque. The dyno sheets were printed in EC in the mid 90’s) 
In fact during a build up of another car (1995 GTi with our 3.1L engine that we shipped complete to California) the EIP 3.1L GTi made MORE WHP and WTQ than a 2.8L SC GTi which was built and tested at the same shop on the same dyno!! This was kept very quiet by the magazine as a certain West Coast tuner had just released and began advertising their brand new SC kit using a Vortex blower (long before VF existed)…

On the 3.1L we used our Big-Valve High Flow Head, our HF T-body, our HF Intake Manifold (stock modded), ABT 95.6mm Crank (available at the time), Shcrick 276 Cams, our High Pressure Springs, Schrick Titanium retainers and seats, 11+:1 compression, and a custom 3" exhaust system. Car was a 1992 Corrado, Eprom was custom, dyno was Autothority's in VA (way back when). 
On the 3.0L we used the same combination as above except stock 90.3mm crank and Schrick 276 Cams and a custom 3" exhaust. Again Eprom was custom and car was also a 1992 Corrado. 
Both cars used the Autothority High Flow intake filter kit (very hot stuff back in the day and proved nearly 10whp on both cars).

Autothority in VA (independant 3rd party tuner) performed all dyno testing, this was circa 1994. 
-Rich
Edit: I should have added that the 3.1L had a Schrick 2-piece Header and Schrick SS HF cat...and the 3.0L had stock modified manifolds (ported) and the DP's were re-welded (to allow for additional porting) and ported. 

_Modified by eiprich at 5:22 PM 7-20-2006_

Can you post your 240+WHP dynos here?


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (actionVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *actionVR6* »_
Can you post your 240+WHP dynos here?

I am afraid I have not seen those is 8-10 years...which is why I mentioned that we had given copies to the magazines way back when...so if someone wants to find them they will need to do the research...both EC and Turbo magazine IIRC. 
Once we bought our own Dynojet...we pretty much just keep everything on disc...no printed copies unless they are for customers and/or for scanning into our website. 
-Rich


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

ok...my turn to chime in here. I'm not totally sold on the idea that a magical port shape or intake manifold design is going to mystically reveal 30 - 50 hp all by itself. There are a few other areas that have not been touched upon whatsoever. I am attempting to put together all of the race engine secrets that I have ammassed in the last few years, most in the last 12 months being that I work at Ferrea Racing Components. You learn a TON when you pick the minds of engine builders designing things like:
~2.0L Honda B-series motors making 300hp on 93 octane with 13:1 Compression
~Diesel Tractor Pull engines making 4,000 - 5,000 pounds of torque and spinning them to 6,000+ RPM and intercooled with *2 GALLONS* of water during the 10 seconds of loaded pulling...oh yeah, with *250 PSI of BOOST* pressure via 3 sequential turbochargers!!
~Moto-X cylinder head porter who's been in the industry for decades, now making as much hp (roughly 67hp) with his single cylinder CRF 250cc as the factory Honda race team engines, but his do not need to be stripped down every race. We're talking 268HP PER LITER!!
A 3.0L VR6 making those type of numbers would = 804hp!!
The numbers are in there...and it makes perfect sense why we haven't seen anything but bolt-ons for this motor. No one with the rare knowledge of making massive numbers has spent ANY time on the VR6 since it is of such a drastically different design and 'appears' that it would have major head cooling issues and simply cast it aside and work on the engines that are making them money already. 
These engine designers keep a tight lip when talking to other tuners and engine builders, but I've noticed that they don't feel threatened by having a conversation with me about their methods since I am the manufacturer of the valvetrain parts that they use to do the magic that they do. Perhaps they feel that keeping their suppliers up to speed on what they are doing helps us manufacture components that will survive in their engines.
Whatever the case is, I need to sort of the plans for the different setups that I will aim for first. It pains me to see people pump thousands of dollars into cars that they pay others to build, simply to say they have a certain brand of parts within it, and really get nothing beyond that. And here I am, just needing a few thousand to assemble to the most insane VR6 ever devised...it'll happen soon enough though.
Some of you may have heard, my goal is a heafty 400hp. That number may sound shocking, but with the things that I have learned from the conversations with the individuals I've met on both the phone and in person, 400hp actually sounds mild by comparison. Even if I fall short of this attempt by 100hp, I'll still be breaking major barriers that have been invisible to so many for so long.
Bildon...I have stuff to barter with.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

*according to this manifold/engine builder, the flow paths/frequency/timing is equalled about by the time the exhaust leaves the head.*
------
"Quote, originally posted by xanthus »
I gotta disagree. Dual turbos are neat in all, but there are much better ways of getting the job done. The headers (yes both) are not balanced based on head design, and are overall not the same length. The downpipes have no flex coupling, so that means either cracked header(s) or cracked downpipe(s).
The collectors are fantastic though, same with the diverter tie ins, that took alot of work, very nice.
Top side of the engine is an aweful mess.. I don't even want to get into that.
I think a bit better planning and thought should have gone into the creation. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, and I can see alot of work went into it, but I feel the fabrication could have been taken a couple "notches" up, otherwise it's cool.
^^^^^^^REPLY BELOW^^^^^^^^^^
Well, glad to hear your opinion... but FWIW... I built it. I will let you know what we found out during the project. The head outflow is matched across all ports. We were going to take into account and found out that it would have made it worse. So the headers Are true equal length within 1/4" I know I measured. The downpipe was situated so that the flex was mounted at the collector. With hard motor mounts never had a problem. Plus it was made from slightly heavier gauge material. So, no cracking there. The topside pic was an example of simply running out of funds to "take it up a notch" there were plenty of clean up items that could have been done. Never really got around to it. I will tell you months of planning and thought went into the project from my standpoint. However I am just mostly responsible for the Fab and assembly. But, I guess you have personally built a better one possibly? Please don't get me wrong I do appreciate the kind words (ones said) but don't really understand the criticism. It was my FIRST attempt at building a turbo car. In the end the car worked when everyone said it wouldn't. Plus it was nobody's copy. It is and will always will be for better or worse an original idea. Which is saying a lot in my book. Cheers "
------ 

EDIT: Somewhere during the clean up process, my name go put onto this post, but it was not posted by me...


_Modified by fatfreevw at 7:41 AM 8-2-2006_


----------



## AzradoVr666 (Apr 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

bump..... i've been saying this for years thanks for shining the light into peoples eyes


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> I'm not totally sold on the idea that a magical port shape or intake manifold design is going to mystically reveal 30 - 50 hp all by itself.
We didnt say that port shape and magic alone would do it. We asked the question. "What's it going to take?"
>> You learn a TON when you pick the minds of engine builders
Yes, working for years at a championship winning IMSA team was very educational. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> ~2.0L Honda B-series motors making 300hp on 93 octane with 13:1 Compression
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The highest output 2L VW NA motors I've seen are Lehmann's 310hp kit car motors. RSG has a 290hp 2L motor that runs strong for 24hours. In Germany people do 'Honda like' development on VW engines. Here nobody wants to spend the $$. Conversely, When I was at the Nurburgring last, the Hondas were "also rans" Only the S2000 with some factory support was doing well for them. The VWs and Opels (EcoTec) were doing better.
>> No one with the rare knowledge of making massive numbers has spent ANY time on the VR6 
Not entirely accurate but yes bascially the VR6 has not been developed with the effort that Honda, BMW or Porsche engines have.
...nobody has hit the right combo or nobody has attacked the problem completely exhausting all possibilities.
>> making massive numbers 
We're not looking for massive #s. We just want to see ~ 250 wheel-275 crank, not what I'd call "massive".
>> Bildon...I have stuff to barter with.
Such as?










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 11:56 AM 7-25-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

>>> Any further progression on it so far?
Define "it" ?
As mentioned early on, this project is going to go well into the fall or later.
Dont expect any big motors to be built for many many weeks. We're still gathering info, data, parts and working on the stage 1 engines.


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## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Bildon...I have stuff to barter with.
Such as?









And now I can't change the channel.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> making massive numbers 
We're not looking for massive #s. We just want to see ~ 250 wheel-275 crank, not what I'd call "massive".
>> Bildon...I have stuff to barter with.
Such as? 


I'm looking to make massive numbers. It's eating me alive knowing that I have all the reseources available to me in order to do it.
As far as things to barter with....hmmmmm, I'm thinking that I'll simply PM you on this one. For everyone else, I'll simply state that valve train is where I'm placing my bets as being the power barrier that everyone hits.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

valvetrain? you can make a vr6 engine spin to 12 grand no problem with honda springs!!!







how much money is going to be put into this project again? titanium valves and titanium retainers will make use for a less aggressive spring, even a good single spring can be used depending on cam profile. im sure you all probably know this







a guy i worked for used to get chevrolet titanium valve "blanks" and have them cut to what he needed them for. this cut down the price per valve a $hitload. just an idea


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_valvetrain? you can make a vr6 engine spin to 12 grand no problem with honda springs!!!







how much money is going to be put into this project again? titanium valves and titanium retainers will make use for a less aggressive spring, even a good single spring can be used depending on cam profile. im sure you all probably know this







a guy i worked for used to get chevrolet titanium valve "blanks" and have them cut to what he needed them for. this cut down the price per valve a $hitload. just an idea









Where's the dyno of this 12k RPM VR6? If it can't be posted, what numbers did this produce?
Being that I work for Ferera Racing Components...we manufacture our own springs, Ti valves and Ti retainers, copper guides, etc. and have the ability to alter any of them within reason.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Where's the dyno of this 12k RPM VR6? If it can't be posted, what numbers did this produce?


i think he was joking hence the














after his statement. but who says it can't be done.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
i think he was joking hence the














after his statement. but who says it can't be done.

Is he? Even still, would there be anyone opposed to a VR6 that makes power and rev's insanely high? I like Formula 1...don't you?


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

cam profiles and a whole bunch of other issues arise, as you are aware. 10k probably... 12k high unlikely or worth it.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_cam profiles and a whole bunch of other issues arise, as you are aware. 10k probably... 12k high unlikely or worth it.

Everyone loves to focus on duration numbers and sometimes lift. If any of this truly sounds important to anyone, they can throw that information once the valves start bouncing back off the seats and re-opening. Weight reduction starts to become your best friend at that point. I get the domestic guys who understand this (and have MUCH more weight to battle with) that get excited about reducing 3 - 5 grams in a valve. 
I've seen probably all the available springs and retainer setups available for the VR6, and must say that no one at Ferrea was impressed. Springs have a frequency range and ilke a guitar string will become unstable at specific RPMs, basically becoming totally unaffective at controlling the valve, let alone itself. Anyone ever miss a shift and accidentally overrev an engine? Lots of things get destroyed when that stuff happens. I'd buy the better stuff anyday to avoid that.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Please don't take these skeptical inquiries below as personal attacks...the point of this thread is to learn, TEST, disseminate and advance the body of knowledge for VR6 power.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> valve train is where I'm placing my bets as being the power barrier that everyone hits.
I'll take that bet.







We have valve(trains) big enough, light enough, fast enough and flowed enough to make well over 400hp. However perhaps you have a different angle on this that I'm not seeing?
>> you can make a vr6 engine spin to 12 grand no problem with honda springs!!! 
Comon guys. Let's not start these "Vortex type" of posts. Honda springs?...








>> Everyone loves to focus on duration numbers and sometimes lift.
Yes and that is backwards. One needs to determine what the head will allow FIRST, and then after you have an optimal valve lift profile designed then and only then can you begin to design a cam and valvetrain that will produce that profile at the valve.
>> and must say that no one at Ferrea was impressed
Are you saying that Ferrea itself is unimpressed with it's own valvetrain offerings for the VR6? I dont understand. 
>> We made 251WHP back in the early 90's with our High Compression 3.1L Engines...
Rich, no offense but way back in this thread I made a "rule". No HP claims unless you can back them up. You have never produced and promoted these engines since that first "hushed up" magazine article? It sounds like a sure money maker...why not? Or if you are stil making these #s, let see the data please.
Is "high compression" 11:1 ?
>> we used our Big-Valve High Flow Head
How many CFM do these heads flow at 28" over various lifts and at what valve sizes? Can you post some of your flow data. The secret is not in the results data but in the port shapes so there should be no reason to hide this data.
>> this was circa 1994.
Today yousell this same setups? And you surely have customer dyno data from recent tuning sessions or where customers have sent this data to you?
...reading further...
>> Once we bought our own Dynojet...we pretty much just keep everything on disc...no printed copies unless they are for customers and/or for scanning into our website.
Awesome! please post some relavent data for us on these 240WHP motors! I'd particularly be interested in the injector info.


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## xanthus (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Yes and that is backwards. One needs to determine what the head will allow FIRST, and then after you have an optimal valve lift profile designed then and only then can you begin to design a cam and valvetrain that will produce that profile at the valve.
How many CFM do these heads flow at 28" over various lifts and at what valve sizes? Can you post some of your flow data. The secret is not in the results data but in the port shapes so there should be no reason to hide this data.


Bill, speaking of valves and port design; have you had the chance to compair flow benches between a 12V and and a 24V head? I know the 24V head is dissimilar to the 12V, however they do share the same cylinder layout.
Perhaps compairing information may shed some light into VW square port design, versus the round/oval port. We know the 24V head flows more, however how much more CFM is the square port delivering? I wouldn't think that there is -that- much more space available to make the 24V port drastically larger than the 12V counterpart.
Cheers.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

well since you work for ferea you should know that there is valvetrain out there that can handle 12k rpms, i know this because i have built honda engines that have reved up to that (not purposly) but one engine i did put together sees 10k everyday and is a daily driver. heck a s2000 revs to 9k stock! i was joking, relax. as for a vr6 and reving it out (and making power lets say) everyone buys off the shelf products and expects 300 wheel from these motors. not hapening. heck i had 2mm oversized valves waiting to go in my 12v motor from your comany, because i know its reputaion on a quality product. i am a firm beliver in waiting, spending an extra $500 on a better part and having no doubts in the engines i build. its a real sin that vr6 engines dont have the parts and recorces that honda b and k series have. a k series engine hasnt been around as long as a 24v vr6 and look at what some of these guys are doing with them already, and how much power is being made. its sad. bildon it looks like you are one of the few that want to take this engine to another level, but when i was going to build my 12v, the 24v came out, so i sold everything, bought a 24v and started with a better base engine. do you blame me? i think my 12.5 at 108 proves i made the better choice, and the engine is just tuned on the street. wait till i hit the dyno and a70 degree day not a 115degree waterfest horror. as for saving for a better product i dont think any vr6 is running off motec m600 besides mine


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
>> and must say that no one at Ferrea was impressed
Are you saying that Ferrea itself is unimpressed with it's own valvetrain offerings for the VR6? I dont understand. 


Rats...I hate it when I am not clear and concise. I was speaking of the available competition of ours. I recently had Brand "AT" and Brand "CC" in my possession. 
Brand "CC" used _tool steel_ for it's material choice. Tool steel is great for some uses because it is strong and stiff. However, that may not be a wise choice for an item that is designed to flex such as a spring needs to. Our engineers felt that tool steel could be too brittle and a high likelyhood of breaking before other choice materials would. This spring used an inner and outer spring coilings that do not contact each other when installed. This does not take advantage of the ability to have one spring cancel out natural resonance of the other. As stated before, when a wire/spring attains it's natural resonance frequency, it loses it's ability to control the ocilating components of the valvetrain, in addition to its own self.

Brand "AT" appeared to be the better choice between the two springs. Not of tool steel, it is less likely to suffer a fracture, leading to spring failure. Although this brand of spring does make physical contact between the inner and outer when installed, (and not installed), the amount of friction and drag between the two was overly extreme to the point that it was impossible to seperate them by hand and required the use of tools in order to do so.
A Ferrea spring is produced from the cleanest wire possible and heat treated by means of having it's temperature raised to near melting point in order to "sweat" out any additional impurities within the material. This provides more consistancies of the material structure allow excellent tencile strength. This heating is followed by the gradual reduction of temperature, then repeated multiple times. Various finishing processes follow including extensive micropolishing of the wire to eliminate all sharp points, ridges and rises that can lead to a fracture. A sharp point is a starting point for a crack/fracture, which is the leading cause for a spring failure.
As far as harmonics are concerned, the Ferrea springs are rated for a natural resonance higher than 10,000 RPM.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*

>>do you blame me?
Nope








>> i dont think any vr6 is running off motec m600
Not sure about the m600 but there have been quite a few running MoTec.
The ECU in our race car is fully programmable. It's a reprogrammed Motronic ECU. But has fully programmable maps and other parameters.
How many of you guys with generic chips have a black exhaust pipe? If so you're not tuned right http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif The "chip tuners" are consertvative. It should look chocolate brown like this (flash made it lighter than it really is):


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (xanthus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xanthus* »_
Bill, speaking of valves and port design; have you had the chance to compair flow benches between a 12V and and a 24V head? I know the 24V head is dissimilar to the 12V, however they do share the same cylinder layout.
Perhaps compairing information may shed some light into VW square port design, versus the round/oval port. We know the 24V head flows more, however how much more CFM is the square port delivering? I wouldn't think that there is -that- much more space available to make the 24V port drastically larger than the 12V counterpart.
Cheers.









And to you my friend: http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
As we all know, the layout is very similar of course, but the main difference is the amount of mass that each spring must control. The 24v head uses a bee-hive spring that is very effective with control it's own weight in addition to canceling out/preventing resonance within it's coil, especially considering that it is a single spring.
Here's the basics of what we tell customers:
If you want to increase your USABLE RPM range, you must either increase the spring tension, or reduce the reciprocating mass, or both depending on how much higher you are attempting to increase.
A perfect story is of a customer that had an issue with not making power in the upper limit of his engine build and was disappointed with our springs. He was so afraid to increase the spring tension any higher than he already had because everyone has this virtual law burned into their DNA stating that "more sprign tension will simply robb me of HP because it is more load, and my dyno #'s will go down" when after we convinced him to simply make an attempt at bringing his spring pressure up (I think it was 30 pounds or so). He called the next week shouting on the phone that he had picked up _28 horse power_ just by taking our advice. "I can't believe that I had that much free power simply being lost, and it goes against all logic that it would do what it has!"


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> and it goes against all logic
The heavier springs are helping push the cam lobes back up as well.
KingVR it sounds as if you have a great resource there at Ferrea...please keep adding to this discussion as you test actual VR6 components. If you have anything that you want to test wrt our 12v project please feel free to contact us as we get closer to building the stage 2 & 3 engines.
I'm curious about the natural frequency & harmonics of a dynamic valvespring but we can take that discussion offline. It wouldn't be directly relevant to the VR6 thread.
>> Bill, speaking of valves and port design; have you had the chance to compair flow benches between a 12V and and a 24V
No, we have done no work on the superior 24v head. You do bring up a point that we have no data on. What does the 24v head flow in stock form? Ported? Anyone have any flowbench data?


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

]>> and it goes against all logic
The heavier springs are helping push the cam lobes back up as well.
*Right on the money. It's amazing that that doesn't occur to people more often.*
KingVR it sounds as if you have a great resource there at Ferrea...please keep adding to this discussion as you test actual VR6 components. If you have anything that you want to test wrt our 12v project please feel free to contact us as we get closer to building the stage 2 & 3 engines. 
*If I were to make a cylinder head package, would you be able to dyno this relatively easily?*
I'm curious about the natural frequency & harmonics of a dynamic valvespring but we can take that discussion offline. It wouldn't be directly relevant to the VR6 thread.
>> Bill, speaking of valves and port design; have you had the chance to compair flow benches between a 12V and and a 24V
No, we have done no work on the superior 24v head. You do bring up a point that we have no data on. What does the 24v head flow in stock form? Ported? Anyone have any flowbench data? 
*Bill, I have access to our flow bench here at Ferrea. I also have a stock 12v head, my personal BVH 12v head, and a 24v head. It may take some time, but I should be able to get an engineer to come in with me on a Saturday and run each one on the same SuperFlow flow bench and get some good numbers.*


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote »_If I were to make a cylinder head package, would you be able to dyno this relatively easily?

Now _this_ is what I'm talkin about!!!

_Quote »_Define "it" ?

It = topic, engine, flow models, etc... Basically, I hate saying 'bump' and nothing had been posted in a few days. Didn't want this thread to hit archives.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> If I were to make a cylinder head package, would you be able to dyno this?
Yes, we should have our chassis dyno test car ready soon. 
Unfortunately the engine dyno is still not setup. Perhaps I could get a VR set up on there and use it for all future tests. 
>> Bill, I have access to our flow bench here at Ferrea. I also have a stock 12v head, my personal BVH 12v head, and a 24v head. 
I emailed you about this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 12v engineering project > 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

OK things are starting to fall in place now. We now have many of the areas that we'll need to progress covered. However we could still use more help with a few areas in case we lose any people along the way.
- Loans or donations of old heads, exhausts, intakes, etc... damaged or not. Some for cutting up, some for just measuring or tuning with.
*- 3D scanning services with equipment that can reach the entire length (or close) of the VR6 ports. *
- CNC head cutting service that has a multi axis machine which can do a full port job given our custom profile. (I'd rather not grind these all by hand!)








What we should have covered:
- 3D engine simulation to accelerate the process - Ben http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
- Our race engine machine services and dyno services.
- Bildon custom parts, and numerous race parts partners.
- Our own porting and component modification services.
- Oiling system design by Bildon / Ishihara-Johnson
- MoTec engine management will be handled by us and then custom Motronic ECU programming for the various configurations will be dealt with by ourselves with engineering assistance from Atwood Tuning. 
BTW, we appreciate the advice and support we've got from a number of other interested parties who have been down this path before... Let's hope we turn this







into this


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

flow benches blow my mind.


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project > 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_OK things are starting to fall in place now. We now have many of the areas that we'll need to progress covered. However we could still use more help with a few areas in case we lose any people along the way.
- Loans or donations of old heads, exhausts, intakes, etc... damaged or not. Some for cutting up, some for just measuring or tuning with. 

hey i'd like to be a part of this,
want my old stock exhaust manifolds?


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project > 275hp (Northren vr6)*

You want all 12v stuff OBDI and OBDII?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project > 275hp (Flavourless)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Bill, I have access to our flow bench here at Ferrea. I also have a stock 12v head, my _*personal BVH 12v head*_, and a 24v head. 


Just to claify, I _personally_ setup my head myself. Had it ported by one of the best, and installed Schrick 2mm OS valves on the intake and exhaust. Ported the lower intake and the exhaust manifolds to match the flow of the head. Back before I knew anything about valvetrain, specifically springs and weight reduction, I unfortunately neglected to change out the stock springs and retainers for anything better.


----------



## CSDis4lovers (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: Gas Velocity (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking about if a single throttle body was used. BTW: Awesome diagram! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








If a second TB was employed, we wouldn't have to worry about a split plenum or staggered runners in a single manifold. Have cylinders 1-3-5 in one manifold and 2-4-6 in the other. Since 1-3-5 are the rear bank and need the short runners, put that manifold on the bottom. 2-4-6 need the long runners since they're the front bank. Place the plenum of that manifold on the top, the extra height will make it easier to place the longer runners. 
Plus you won't have to worry about the pulses from the short runners interfering with the long runners. 
If needed, do the same thing for the exhaust manifold, 6-2-1 style with the short runners taking the long pipes.
I wonder if it'd be easier to work with a VR6 if we just treated it like two 3-cylinder engines. 



though space is an issue, why couldn't you build an intake manifold to work in this aspect (sorry if has been discussed and i missed it).. it seems a vital flaw may be the intake and the flow to the ports. though it may be costly (and albeit not worth it for this discussion) a staggered intake manifold, you could have a SRI with staggered pleniums? i appologize if this is a stupid idea, but it seems this could free up a bit of horsepower. 

either way, i am hooked, i love posts like this. it makes the vortex what is was first designed to be.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Gas Velocity (tibz23)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tibz23* »_

though space is an issue, why couldn't you build an intake manifold to work in this aspect (sorry if has been discussed and i missed it).. it seems a vital flaw may be the intake and the flow to the ports. though it may be costly (and albeit not worth it for this discussion) a staggered intake manifold, you could have a SRI with staggered pleniums?

It comes down to getting the ECU to learn to deal with 2 throttle bodies, or an easier way, do standalone. In that case, a throttle body per runner would be a better choice (as far as standalone capabilities are concerned.)


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
It comes down to getting the ECU to learn to deal with 2 throttle bodies, or an easier way, do standalone. In that case, a throttle body per runner would be a better choice (as far as standalone capabilities are concerned.) 

I don't how that would be so difficult. Simply (fabrications required) run one throttle body off of the ECM, while all additional throttle bodies run "slave" to the first one so that they will have the same positioning as the first. The ECM on OBD-II will control the blade's pitch to an extent in order to control the idle properly. All slave throttle bodies would need the springs removed from them so that they do not mutiply the load on the idle servo.
OBD-I would require nearly the same setup, but idle would be controlled by the idle speed control valve, with it feeding the by-passed air evenly to the backside of each throttle body.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Gas Velocity (KingVR)*

Hold on a second here guys, the discussion seems to be getting off the orignial intent which was to set realistic goals and make realistic gains.
Lets examine several of the ideas brought forth over the last two pages: 
400 hp out of a 12v VR; pardon my skepticism, but that is reaching into hp/cylinder levels of a well prepared nascar/sprint engine without all the advantages the SBC provides. The VR by comparison has miniscule valves, lift numbers and port shape. Also the VR is a small bore/long stroke engine which further complicates things in regards to fuel burn through the power stroke.
9k rpm out of VR; show me an engine with a friction tensioner that can rev this high with any sustainability, much less two friction tensioners!

There still hasn't been any info posted, so no one has any real idea of what they are working with as a baseline. You have to know your baseline to plot potential gains, so get some info on paper and go from there.
Here's some good info: http://rehermorrison.com/techTalk/index.htm


_Modified by 130_R at 10:18 AM 7-27-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> The highest output 2L VW NA motors I've seen are Lehmann's 310hp kit car motors. RSG has a 290hp 2L motor that runs strong for 24hours.

That's roughly 300hp from 2 motor examples, 3 counting the one I mentioned, out of 2L displacement. The one I spoke of does it on pump gas (93 octane) and is not a track only motor running on the edge. That's 150hp per liter. Simply applying similar engine alterations, specifically ones that the average "car enthusiast" will never become aware of, multiplied by 3.0L and that would bring you to 450hp, by the numbers of course.
I don't see the friction tensioners robbing dozens of horsepower from the VR6, especially considering that the are on the "slack" side of the chains.
Keep in mind, Bildon is not aiming for 400hp...I am. Here's another hint that I'll drop as to how I taking that aim: Combustion Chamber shape.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> The one I spoke of does it on pump gas (93 octane) and is not a track only motor running on the edge.







hmmmm
>> aim: Combustion Chamber shape.
There is no doubt our engines will get custom pistons for this purpose.
With nothing in the head to change it's all got to be done in the piston. But we're not going into details until we start building, as things are far too likely to change.
>> 300hp from 2 motor examples
Those other engines are 16v motors with very high compression, race fuel, no low torque, Ti everything, Pankl unobtanium cranks and heads that Lehmann MotorenTechnik perfected long ago. Actually the last bunch of kit car motors were done by ItalTechnica I believe (same boys who developed the FIA GT 550 Maranello for Ferrari)... but this is all off track and unrelated to the 12v VR6 real world projects.








>> Bildon is not aiming for 400hp
We're simply aiming to break the barrier NOBODY else seems to have done. Once broken, how about a 500hp motor? JK








130_R you are generally correct http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif however...
>> show me an engine with a friction tensioner that can rev this high with any sustainability, much less two friction tensioners!
OK







It's also German, its also 6 cyl., it also uses 2 "plastic" chain tensioners, it's got a steel crank, Ti rods, Ti valves, 1 plug per cyl., revs to just shy of 9000 RPM (restricted by rules not technology) and makes 460BHP with a 30mm restrictor! It can run at 8-9k RPM for 24 hours with no problems (usually) 
Right, It's the Porsche 911 GT3 RSR M96/73
BTW, it uses 2 plenums, and 1 small TB. Put a 'Corrado sized' TB on it without restrictor and it goes way over 500BHP. 








off topic? ... or is it?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
9k rpm out of VR; show me an engine with a friction tensioner that can rev this high with any sustainability, much less two friction tensioners!

_Modified by 130_R at 10:18 AM 7-27-2006_

the suzuki GSXR600 has a friction tensioner, and revs to 16000+
The race guys take the oil pressure fed tensioner out and put in a manual threaded tensioner. maybe a concept we could use for the VR6?


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

piston shape is going to play the largest factor. get rid of the "dish".


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

> get rid of the "dish".
You cant


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_piston shape is going to play the largest factor. get rid of the "dish".

Ths "dish" as you put it is infact the combustion chamber, as the VR heads are flat.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
> get rid of the "dish".
You cant

While I agree that it shouldn't be removed entirely, it literally IS the combustion chamber. Piston design along with rod ratio together are one of three main areas that are my playing cards that I have in my hand. The other 2 are intake runner re-design (heavily modified) and weight reduction in both valvetrain and bottom-end...essentially all reciprocating items.
Currently the only purpose of aftermarket piston for the VR6 will give you nothing more than your choice of compression ratio and more durability.
The 2L B-series that I am talking about is of course, far from what the Vortex audience would consider "a good deal" at $14k complete with standalone ECU/harness, ready to drop in, and people will buy it. I know of people that spend over $8k simply to gain 20whp from a carbon fiber airbox with ITB's on a 3-series BMW...there's a customer for everything.
A great quote from the Reher Morrison article "RPM Determine's Reliability"
"We performed a back-to-back comparison test between stainless steel and titanium valves in a 555ci bracket racing Rat motor with ported Dart 360 cylinder heads and a roller cam with .475-inch lobe lift. With steel valves, the engine made 920 horsepower at 7,000 rpm, _*but the power curve dropped at 7,200 rpm.*_ We pulled the heads, swapped the valves, and had the engine running on the dyno again 90 minutes later. With titanium valves, the engine had the same power at 7,000 rpm. _*At 7,200 rpm it was up 20 horsepower, and it maintained that output to 7,800 rpm.*_ Best of all, after two years of racing and hundreds of runs, this engine hasn't broken a valvespring!"
The above mentioned is a great example of what I was reffering to as valve "BOUNCE". I've personally engineered a VR6 valvetrain package that will bring the weight down to nearly 50%. Simply changing the valves to Ti from Stainless as Reher Morrison did gave him great results, and that was only with the weight of the valves, roughly around 40% is what Ti will drop in weight, maybe 160 grams per cylinder. But he still has to fight the weight of the lifter, pushrod, and heavier retainer and spring compared to what we have My setup will drop 160 grams per cylinder, and that is including ALL components of the VR6 valvetrain.
As asked earlier, what motor can rev high and be rebliable. Just as Reher said, the stress of the valve's weight can hinder the reliability. I've got that issue handled about as well as anyone on this planet could do given my resources with the Ferrea being a leader in valvetrain technology.
As one of our engineers educated me about, OEM designers will sometimes build-in a "mechanical RPM limiter" into the engine. This is accomplished by designing valve bounce into the valvetrain so that power will drop off as it nears the intended red line. If they designed the engines to produce good power into the higher RPM area, people would enjoy that and continue to spin the motor into that area, and since humans have a tendency to abuse what feels good, they would be having warranty LOTS of engines since RPM is also an abreviation for "*R*uins *P*eoples *M*otors"...unless things such as weight and material choices are accomodated for.
The interesting thing, is that when you take the above into account, it's no wonder that the aftermarket is only providing marginal performance gains because they are doing not much more than making marginal design changes of the factory. An example of this would be a Ti retainer for the VR6 that sounds as if it has a hole lot of engineering time spent designing it. The factory steel retainer weighs in at 18.5 grams. Brand "AA"'s Ti retainer weighs 10.5 grams which is less than half. This is because it is literally a dimentional copy of the factory steel unit. The Ferrea VR6 retainer weighs only 6 grams due to it having been actually desgined to be as light as possible while retaining strength. This equates to just UNDER 1/3rd of the weight.
A few people have made comments that we have gotten "off-topic", when I highly disagree. Perhaps people are more comfortable discussing things that is common? That simply leads to common results in my book. I enjoy discovering the uncommon.
(edit: added something)


_Modified by KingVR at 4:03 PM 7-27-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Scott,
>> This is accomplished by designing valve bounce into the valvetrain so that power will drop off as it nears the intended red line. 
I must admit...this hit me in the face hard







I never thought of VW "engineering in" a limit in thi sway but if true you may be on to something. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You design it, we'll test it. Then you can sell it til you're silly








>> Piston design along with rod ratio together are one of three main areas that are my playing cards that I have in my hand. The other 2 are intake runner re-design (heavily modified) and weight reduction in both valvetrain and bottom-end...
However we still have the issue of losing flow in the head. The ports need more work then we ever done in the past to reach our goals. 
PS - Us SCCA road race guys regularly spend $4-10K on what appear to be virtually stock motors. In fact, the more rules restrictions placed on a class usually the more work $$$ you have to do to get an edge.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Scott,
>> This is accomplished by designing valve bounce into the valvetrain so that power will drop off as it nears the intended red line. 
I must admit...this hit me in the face hard







I never thought of VW "engineering in" a limit in thi sway but if true you may be on to something. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You design it, we'll test it. Then you can sell it til you're silly










I'll post a pic of my dyno, or you can look at all other 12v dynos basically and notice the consistantly repeating similarity of the torque doing a 45 degree angle drop at about 5600 RPM. It frustrated me to no end until I started learning about valvetrain here at Ferrea that the most likely answer for my torque that had a great flat-line of torque from I think around 3800 - 5600, nearly 2000 RPM's of floating around 185 pounds of torque, suddenly take a drastic drop at 5600 RPM for no explained reason. I attempted a mod'd intake (opened up plenum) chamber with ZERO RESULTS. The people I knew personally, and the dyno's I could find online that did NOT show this behavior as radically, were people with aftermarket cams and springs. Silly me had never considered that my heavy retainer and handicapped springs were guilty of this.
When I described this issue I had to our engineers is when the knowledge that the OEM engine design teams build in mechnical limiters into the behavior of the motor at the request of the bean-counters for warranty purposes.


_Modified by KingVR at 4:22 PM 7-27-2006_


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
Ths "dish" as you put it is infact the combustion chamber, as the VR heads are flat.

let me reword...redesign the "dish"







better?


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Gas Velocity (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
the suzuki GSXR600 has a friction tensioner, and revs to 16000+
The race guys take the oil pressure fed tensioner out and put in a manual threaded tensioner. maybe a concept we could use for the VR6?

This is another item that will be implemented in my setup as well. Have the reason of making this item would be to eliminate the need to pray so hard right before turning the key with lines such as: "Please good Lord, I've been a good person, please don't let there be any air trapped in the piston tensioner as the engine starts for the first time after doing these chains, tensioners, and or cams!! Please don't let any valves get bent!!"
It does appear though that VW has made an attempt to reduce drag by using a roller wheel in place of the static friction drag guide on the "pulling side" of the chain (non-slacked).








I wonder if I can adapt that my my use as well.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

Yes, better ;-)
We'll have to, since we wont get enough compression from decking the block. 
We've done BVHs with lighter stainless, Ti or Alu components and yes it will rev but the heads still die. 
As mentioned way back, some of the All Motor drag guys I've talked to have gone all out with light VT, long dur. cams, big valves and ports, 14:1 CR, and still only make 250WHP, no more... increasing the duration even more results in losses HINT HINT
... with you being at Ferrea do you have access to any of the engine modelling software especially the "4stHEAD" software package?
What is the stroke on the ABT crank they make for the VR6? One thing we need to look at is the rod ratio. Is anyone able to get a killer deal on a set of custom length VR6 rods? 
This thing just cant pump air at high RPM. Shifting the torque band up as everyone tries to do on this thing is may be fruitless without other changes...poor high RPM performance could also be the results of a poor rod ratio, piston velocity, lack or force to move air....etc etc... 
I could go on and on about various theories and pitfalls that I think a lot of us have fallen into while building a high output VR6 but instead I think it's time to do some real "new" work on this!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Does anyone have any details on the changes that Porsche made to the head and intake of the VR6 in it's Cayenne?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Not a clue, I'd love to know the differences though.


----------



## TeamTCRacing (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Gas Velocity (KingVR)*

I hope no one pops me on the mouth







but what about titanium connecting rods? I was reading about the new porsche and it says they use titanium connectiong rods with forged pistons to reduce weight and up the power. It was in motortrend...








Wait I was wrong, they just used forged pistons and titanium rods to rev 200 rpm faster and that really wouldn't help too much so ignore me 


_Modified by TeamTCRacing at 7:05 PM 7-27-2006_


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Does anyone have any details on the changes that Porsche made to the head and intake of the VR6 in it's Cayenne?

i always wondered that in back of my mind.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Yes, better ;-)
s HINT HINT
... with you being at Ferrea do you have access to any of the engine modelling software especially the "4stHEAD" software package?


i have 3d rendering software(since its my future job/current hobby)...but its visuals only... sorry..let me know if can help @ all..


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

4stHEAD is short for 4 Stroke Cylinder Head Design.
It's not a graphics package.
http://www.profblairandassocia....html


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Does anyone have any details on the changes that Porsche made to the head and intake of the VR6 in it's Cayenne?

AHH HA!! now mabey I can contribute something. I work for Porsche, let me do some research.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Does anyone have any details on the changes that Porsche made to the head and intake of the VR6 in it's Cayenne?

??? I'm not sure what the concern with this VR6 variety would be since it's only 250hp, just like the VW Toureg...and they are both 24 valve R32 engines mechanically. I had an "un-educated" Porsche Product Specialist at the Miami Auto Show try to shut me up after I pointed out (quite audibly) that the $66k Porsche comes with a VW subframe AND a VW ENGINE...he was trying to deny that the engine was also from VW...it was quite the laugh.
The only thing I am aware that is different would be that they attempt to make the intake manifold dressed up with the appearance of a V6 engine layout.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What is the stroke on the ABT crank they make for the VR6? One thing we need to look at is the rod ratio. Is anyone able to get a killer deal on a set of custom length VR6 rods? 
This thing just cant pump air at high RPM. Shifting the torque band up as everyone tries to do on this thing is may be fruitless without other changes...poor high RPM performance could also be the results of a poor rod ratio, piston velocity, lack or force to move air....etc etc... 


Abt crank is a 95.6mm stroke. For reference, the R32 crank is a 95.9mm. There is talk in the 24V forum that an R32 crank fits in the 24V block, any chance that it'll fit in the 12V as well (with similar modifications as the Abt crank needed?) Might be a cheaper alternative.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

BTW: Here's that 24V/ R32 crank post.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2559243


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_That's roughly 300hp from 2 motor examples, 3 counting the one I mentioned, out of 2L displacement. The one I spoke of does it on pump gas (93 octane) and is not a track only motor running on the edge. That's 150hp per liter. Simply applying similar engine alterations, specifically ones that the average "car enthusiast" will never become aware of, multiplied by 3.0L and that would bring you to 450hp, by the numbers of course.
I don't see the friction tensioners robbing dozens of horsepower from the VR6, especially considering that the are on the "slack" side of the chains.
Keep in mind, Bildon is not aiming for 400hp...I am. Here's another hint that I'll drop as to how I taking that aim: Combustion Chamber shape.

The issue with friction tensioners is not the robbing of horsepower, but rather a simple question of making them last. Tensioner wear is exponential in regards to rpm rather than linear.
Also, you are talking about putting an extra 27.5 hp out of each cyclinder. This is a lot of air to move through a port that can't be altered in any major way to improve what is already there and valve size is effectively capped due to head design. You are aiming at producing similar cyclinder outputs as a 358 stock car engine, with half the valve size, lift and with a "square" cyclinder (bore/stroke).
All these 150 hp/l engines you are talking about are 4cyl four valve head designs, so I fail to see where or how you will be able to apply similar engine alterations to a flat 2 valve head with half the engine having differences in port lengths. Applying similar technology to an engine that is unique unto itself isn't the best way to improve upon what has been done before.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_4stHEAD is short for 4 Stroke Cylinder Head Design.
It's not a graphics package.
http://www.profblairandassocia....html

that is some amazing software. I knew it was more design based then your typical 3d package...but i was just offering the help incase you needed something visual for some reason...bully








I have a 24v in my mk3 that I need to pull out because of a bad main bearing(i think). If you need it for testing, i'll be more then happy to lend it to you. But I'll need it back by november 1st so i can rebuild it(its my winter car/engine along with the syncro drivetrain)


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
The issue with friction tensioners is not the robbing of horsepower, but rather a simple question of making them last. Tensioner wear is exponential in regards to rpm rather than linear. 
*>>> Ok, if the average VR6 can go at the worst 50k (on the OLD style tensioners), and my motor spins at 10k RPM for a short blip and isn't living at that RPM all the time, then how much life reduction are we really even going to notice? This concern is frivolous.*
Also, you are talking about putting an extra 27.5 hp out of each cyclinder. This is a lot of air to move through a port that can't be altered in any major way to improve what is already there and valve size is effectively capped due to head design. You are aiming at producing similar cyclinder outputs as a 358 stock car engine, with half the valve size, lift and with a "square" cyclinder (bore/stroke).
*>>>There are MANY tricks that can be applied to certain chamber/valve layouts. The 12v's weak link of valve size restriction is something that I will be using to my benefit when it comes to chamber desing and spark plug placement. I'm shooting for the stars as you can see, but even if I miss the ozone layer, I'll still be far above the TV antennaes that most others hit.*
All these 150 hp/l engines you are talking about are 4cyl four valve head designs, so I fail to see where or how you will be able to apply similar engine alterations to a flat 2 valve head with half the engine having differences in port lengths. Applying similar technology to an engine that is unique unto itself isn't the best way to improve upon what has been done before.
*>>> It's caleld "adaptation" of technology. I appreciate the constructive criticism.*




_Modified by KingVR at 12:10 PM 7-28-2006_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_I am afraid I have not seen those is 8-10 years...which is why I mentioned that we had given copies to the magazines way back when...so if someone wants to find them they will need to do the research...both EC and Turbo magazine IIRC.

Here you go, I looked through tons of magazine and could only find this same chart over and over. This is from 8 years ago, it is a pretty vauge and generic looking chart, anyway this is what Rich has been referring to. Enjoy.


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Ok, if the average VR6 can go at the worst 50k (on the OLD style tensioners), and my motor spins at 10k RPM for a short blip and isn't living at that RPM all the time, then how much life reduction are we really even going to notice? This concern is frivolous.
There are MANY tricks that can be applied to certain chamber/valve layouts. The 12v's weak link of valve size restriction is something that I will be using to my benefit when it comes to chamber desing and spark plug placement. I'm shooting for the stars as you can see, but even if I miss the ozone layer, I'll still be far above the TV antennaes that most others hit.
It's caleld "adaptation" of technology. I appreciate the constructive criticism.

Fair enough on the tensioner, maybe they will work.
I think 10k rpm is a pipe dream for a street engine, simply because the premium gasoline availible today is so loaded down with eathanol that it burns too slowly for a long stroke engine like the VR.
Plug placement or included angle isn't going to change without casting a new head, there isn't enough room down there to do anything with it.
Piston design holds some possibilities, maybe 10-15 hp if you really work on it in regards to compression around the spark plug. 
I think the ceiling for the VR is going to end up being not much more than it currently is. Someone may eventually hit 250 whp, but it won't be easy or cheap.


----------



## xanthus (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_As one of our engineers educated me about, OEM designers will sometimes build-in a "mechanical RPM limiter" into the engine. This is accomplished by designing valve bounce into the valvetrain so that power will drop off as it nears the intended red line. If they designed the engines to produce good power into the higher RPM area, people would enjoy that and continue to spin the motor into that area, and since humans have a tendency to abuse what feels good, they would be having warranty LOTS of engines since RPM is also an abreviation for "*R*uins *P*eoples *M*otors"...unless things such as weight and material choices are accomodated for.

This is just an observation I made between how my engine was setup before and after.
Before: Stock engine, literally everything. The powerband would fall flat on it's face after 5.5K RPM, I'm sure everyone has felt this. I notice alot of people that want to stay NA install larger cams. This changes their HP/TWQ range and adds a small amount of power.
After: I installed a turbo system with a Schimmel SRI and a Kinetic Manifold, however left the rest of the engine otherwise stock. No intercooler and only about 7.5PSI. The power band has changed alot, however I thought I could have been running out of power because of the stock cams. I was very surprised, the engine pulls hard past 5.5K RPM, infact I bounced it off the 7.2K RPM rev limiter several times and it had power all the way up. I wonder how far it could go...
The point: I think the intake plenum plays a much larger role than everyone thinks. It's what helps tune the engine to the cams, and what has a hidden role in how well the engine runs on the top end. I know FI is a different application, however I my engine is still limited by the cams and overall head flow.


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## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Here you go, I looked through tons of magazine and could only find this same chart over and over. This is from 8 years ago, it is a pretty vauge and generic looking chart, anyway this is what Rich has been referring to. Enjoy.










WOW, so it is true http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KIEZERJOSE)*

billyvr6, you packrat


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## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

ill see if i cant come up with specific differences between the 12v and 24 v vw head as well as the porsche version its still a vw base design and build it should be basic info i can get my hands on


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (xanthus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xanthus* »_
This is just an observation I made between how my engine was setup before and after.
Before: Stock engine, literally everything. The powerband would fall flat on it's face after 5.5K RPM, I'm sure everyone has felt this. I notice alot of people that want to stay NA install larger cams. This changes their HP/TWQ range and adds a small amount of power.
After: I installed a turbo system with a Schimmel SRI and a Kinetic Manifold, however left the rest of the engine otherwise stock. No intercooler and only about 7.5PSI. The power band has changed alot, however I thought I could have been running out of power because of the stock cams. I was very surprised, the engine pulls hard past 5.5K RPM, infact I bounced it off the 7.2K RPM rev limiter several times and it had power all the way up. I wonder how far it could go...
*>>> Does anyone at all have a dyno of a stock VR6 with nothing different but the intake manifold...and if so, where did the torque start to drop?*


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
I think 10k rpm is a pipe dream for a street engine, simply because the premium gasoline availible today is so loaded down with eathanol that it burns too slowly for a long stroke engine like the VR.
* >>>Do you have extensive testing of this to claim "fact"? Remember the Honda B-series engines that I keep hinting at which make 300hp on 93 octane? It's a street engine that spins past 8k RPM.*
Plug placement or included angle isn't going to change without casting a new head, there isn't enough room down there to do anything with it.
*>>> Perhaps it sounded like I was talking about moving the plug, but I was not.*
Piston design holds some possibilities, maybe 10-15 hp if you really work on it in regards to compression around the spark plug. 
*>>> This is similar to what I was talking about.*
I think the ceiling for the VR is going to end up being not much more than it currently is. Someone may eventually hit 250 whp, but it won't be easy or cheap.
*>>> I think that it could be done for what most people are paying for a retail supercharger kit plus the toher little knic-knack items.*


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

i think they are trying to tell you 10k is not possible without 
1. flowing head
2. much shorter strock

i think if u solve these 2 issues u can make the vr rev much higher.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_i think they are trying to tell you 10k is not possible without 
1. flowing head
2. much shorter strock

i think if u solve these 2 issues u can make the vr rev much higher.

Well, I'm quite sure that it can be done...I can't believe that I'm going to be spending the amount of time and money into this project. If it wasn't for the personal satisfaction, I don't think that I'd do through with it. 
*SOMEONE HAD BETTER BUY MY CABRIO VR6!!*


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## burtonguy567 (Apr 24, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

not to be a @ss KingVR because i know that u know alot and most of the information is helpful, but u sure as hell are cocky and won't take anyone else's advice, ur more stubborn and share only what u believe...if u gave lots of information like ur are doing, AND actually took in and thought about what other people have found, i think that we could have a solution much faster, rather then u just quoteing every1 and answering/commenting/criticizing everything that every1 says...yea sure u worked for ferrara and thats great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , but if ur going to do nothing but preach about what u believe in and not take in what every1 else says, why don't u just go out on ur own design an amazing NA VR6 and make hundreds of thousands of dollars on ur own?
im not trying to be an @ss like i said earlier, cuz u know ALOT and we all can tell that and appreciate it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...i just think that if every1 cooperated and took in each others ideas then this would get done much faster...


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## xanthus (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (burtonguy567)*

He's just charismatic about what he knows. From what I can tell he has been listening to other peoples advice. His focus is on a particular area though, so that's what he comments about.
There is alot to be learned reguardless of who is being more cocky or focused on one particular thing. That's why I am here; to learn and to make comments when I feel it might be useful overall to everyone.
Remember, nobody is making you read this thread. Your comment is equally cocky, as well as mine. Interjection of perspective helps though.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (burtonguy567)*

Not trying to be cocky at all. I truly do appologize if I am sounding that way. Definitely not my intention at all.
I truly DO believe that I can make a 12v VR6 engine get to 10k RPM...I actually feel that I can get it beyond that. Perhaps I come across the way I do because I've done what I've done in the past. People EVERYWHERE, especially Vortex, would say that what I wanted to try would never work, and I really can't recall too many cases where I ended up being wrong. I'm the type that will stickto my guns, prove it works and stand proud, or prove it didn't work and admit that I was wrong.
I may be building an engine that isn't something for everyone else to buy. That is not the intention. OEMs participate in certain prototype race classes specifically to try new things and then adapt them to the vehicles that they produce. My goal is to use evey ounce of ridiculous technical information that I've come across in my life for this engine build. I've picked the minds of some amazing engine builders that when I get off the phone I'm in awe because I had just become so heavily enlightened that I have to re-think almost the entire way I look at how an engine works.
I'll put it this way: If I hadn't learned the things that I have at Ferrea, and spoken to the engine builders that I have, then I would be on the same exact page as everyone else here. You're suggesting that I listen to others here. Perhaps there are things that I know. Things that I am aware of that others have not had the oppurtunity to discover.
I left Vortex years ago for mainly the reason that everyone would shoot down my ideas, AND the things that I had proven woudl still get shot down!! Yet everyone's simple answer was that I was not admitting to something. People would make statements that I was running Corrado SLC gears in my tranny, which I never had, simply to explain why I was running so much faster than everyone else. I still haven't seen a dyno that could beat mine without having a big-bottom end.
PLEASE keep in mind that I am NOT trying to sound like an @ss here at all. I'm simply trying to share some knowledge with everyone who shares my passion for this facinating engine called a "VR6". It's hard to not be defensive when you are continuously being attacked. Let me build my crazy engine and lets all see what it can put out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

ignore most vortexers. You can tell the ones that know their stuff and ones that dont. 99% are all full of it though.... just share info and take in the idea that some of us might be onto something.







We appreciate your knowledge just as much as we appreciate everyone elses. I am VERY interested in having someone from TRAC racing come up with some data showing that the pulses and lengths of the exhaust gasses are equalled out by the time they leave the head. I don't see how its even possible...


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

i agree that many theories that king is talking about may work. but a vr6 reving to 10k AND MAKING POWER is a lil way out there. But iam glad he is so focused on building such. becuase honlestly i always wanted to build a vr with some of the techniques king talked about but to a much much lesser degree. 

basically lighten all your block parts: rods/pistons/crank
along with the valvetrain. then make sure your head WILL FLOW. once u do those things now you can raise the compression, increase bore, decrease strike to rev higher etc. but one must be aware of quality because if u make things too light things can break etc. Once u do all the mechanical things to get the most air inside the motor as fast and also getting it out of the motor as fast as possible this is where power will be created. HEAT AND WEIGHT are to power robbing items. i think 275 is very attainable for a crank hp figure. hell if eip can do close to 250 or better on technology from almost 10 years ago, imagine what people can do now. I hope dowd builds a crazy 12v block for his car (no pressure







) iam gona be very very intersted in what the results will be from that.


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Do you have extensive testing of this to claim "fact"? Remember the Honda B-series engines that I keep hinting at which make 300hp on 93 octane? It's a street engine that spins past 8k RPM.
 
OK, does this engine make power up to 10k rpm or does spin past 8k rpm. 
Lets also examine two other factors about the VR6 and this B20 honda. At 10k rpm, both have similar mean piston velocities of approximately 30 meters per second. When you correlate the piston velocity of both engine to their respective valve areas, you can see where a VR6 would be severly flow limited at that engine speed. At 8k rpm the piston velocity of both engine would be approx 25 meters per second, which is a much more plausible argument for making power.
So with that out of the way, lets look at the gasoline. Pure gaoline that has been 100% atomized and with optimum intake swirl is going to burn at a rate of about 25 meters per second under the most optimum of conditions. If you thin the gasoline with alcohol for pollution reasons the fuel burn slows considerably due to alcohols slower and cooler burn rate.


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

Sorry guys, been a little under the weather... gonna send the head Bill...

_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
Abt crank is a 95.6mm stroke. For reference, the R32 crank is a 95.9mm. There is talk in the 24V forum that an R32 crank fits in the 24V block, any chance that it'll fit in the 12V as well (with similar modifications as the Abt crank needed?) Might be a cheaper alternative.


My ABT 95.6mm crank is knife edged and cryoed and it will do 8k without a problem... and only loses 500rpms between shifts. Scott is the man, long live King VR!


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Morrado)*

Also, lets get back on topic the best way to achieve 10k would be to destroke the crank. On a stock crank, i dont see enough point or the head being able to keep up.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_Also, lets get back on topic the best way to achieve 10k would be to destroke the crank. On a stock crank, i dont see enough point or the head being able to keep up. 

I had the same feelings as this as well...until I mentioned it to some of the engine builders. According to mutiple sources of mine, I'm leaning towards their suggestions of staying with current stroke, or possibly _increasing_ the stroke. I was quite suprised to hear this. The reason being that you see Formula 1 with such tiny stroke ratios because of the RPM is NOT due entirely to the fuel burning speed, but mainly because of the wear and friction that occurs at those speeds. In those forms of racing, that are rarely anywhere else _but_ at the maximum RPM possible. Friction on the cylinder, pistons, rings, etc would create excessive wear, and even more important to consider would be the g-forces experienced by the connecting rods at the "big end" of the rod.
To quote one of the engine builders that I spoke with: "_If you want to get to 12k rpm and make big numbers, assuming that you're not trying to be reliable at speeds above 12k RPM like an F1 engine, you'd be able to make much better power with the largest stroke that you can resonably shove in the engine._"
On a "fuel burning speed" note. efficiency of the "quench" area dictact the optimum spark timing. The less efficient, the earlier you will need to start the burn with more ignition timing. However, more ignition timing means that the compression will start to occur _before_ the piston has even reached TDC, which actually takes away usable power, although obviously not as much as it creates. If you could optomize the quench so well that you could start the fuel burn as late as possible, you can take run the ignition timing as low as possible. My refferenced B-series motor actually does run to 10k RPM and beyond, because it does make power in those areas. It also runs a nearly-flat ignition timing curve of only 17 degrees BTDC, and makes over 300hp at the crank. 
Here's a quote from that engine builder:
"_If you were to take a bag of charcoal briquettes, and each peice represents a fuel droplet, and lay them out on the floor with each one touching another. Then take another bag and place them into a spherical cage. Start each one burning at the same time. Which one do you feel will finish first? You most likely said the one in the cage, which is correct. Since we can control the burn speed in a mechanical fashion that allows us to run a timing curve of 17 degrees BTDC, we can avoid more parasitic loss than we have to while getting the benefits of "bumping the ignition timing" without having to accept the losses of compressing against the piston as it goes to TDC._"
Essentially, instead of "making a 20hp gain and losing 14hp, you're only gaining 6hp. (just picking numbers here) In his case, he can produce that 20hp and only lose 5hp, allowing him to *gain 15* as a net result. There's a few other tricks involved in this process of his design, but that is the primary focal point of it.
...something to think about!! When I got off that phone call, even I said "Wow...I'm a whole lot smarter after that single phone call...that's quite rare to gain that much knowledge in less than 45 minutes!"







...and I was on the clock as well! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by KingVR at 3:43 PM 7-30-2006_


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

okay no more about your dream engine lets get back to brainstorming to make more power on a vr6 12v


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

Its one thing to be a "i heard from an engineer" guy and have all sorts of pipe dream ideas. It is another thing entirely to be an engineer and understand the actual forces involved. 
Having said that, ill also inform you that "the biggest stroke you can fit" will certainly not be high reving. Stroke makes torque, not high rpm. 
The basis of any high revving engine is lightweight pistons and rods. De-stroking reduces rod loads from accelerating the pistons as the velocity is reduced. 
If i was looking to make NA power id be looking at piston design, which is very odd from the factory. I would be quite curious as to why they went with a pie shape on one side of the piston and not with a symmetrical dish design.


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_So...your'e stating that you are an engine builder AND an engineer? Since a few of you are _informing me_ that I am incorrect on nearly all of my statements, I think that it's time to retire from this thread. I look forward to another 10 pages of internet mechanics ramble on endlessly about either why the 12v will never easily make it past 250 or why it's a waste of time all together. I'll have to keep my information to myself apparently, build my motor on my own and we'll see what I can make happen. 
I've noticed that there are types of engines:
~Stock OEM engines from the factory and the people that admire them for how they are.
~Engines that enthusiast mod to get more power from.
~Engines that get tweaked by individuals that take an entirely radical approach to the way things work, and are most often the ones you never hear about, yet are the guys behind those motors that make insane amounts of power beyod what they should...at least as far as the people in the catagory above are concerned.
It was fun while it lasted.









How you *plan* to achieve 75% VE with a VR at 10k rpm, that would get you close to around 325 bhp. A quick comparison of valve size to piston area doesn't even make 75% seem possible.
Until someone with a flow bench gets some real world numbers posted, we are all playing darts in the dark. You have to know where VE falls off noticably before you can map out a strategy for improvement.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_If i was looking to make NA power id be looking at piston design, which is very odd from the factory. I would be quite curious as to why they went with a pie shape on one side of the piston and not with a symmetrical dish design. 

While I'm not an engine builder or an engineer (just a lowly industrial designer







) I think that it was designed to keep the piston balanced. I'm still trying to get a stock VR6 piston so I can see if it's balanced at the wrist pin or not.

_Quote »_On a "fuel burning speed" note. efficiency of the "quench" area dictact the optimum spark timing. The less efficient, the earlier you will need to start the burn with more ignition timing. However, more ignition timing means that the compression will start to occur before the piston has even reached TDC, which actually takes away usable power, although obviously not as much as it creates. If you could optomize the quench so well that you could start the fuel burn as late as possible, you can take run the ignition timing as low as possible.

Exactly. Now if we could design a piston that can be effecient enough to do so at higher RPM, then we'd be able to retard the ignition timing as RPM increases. I've looked at some aftermarket pistons and no one has strayed much from the original design, possibly because most owners/builders are looking to go with forced induction or are simply just trying to increase the compression ratio.
Now say we took a regular piston design, even off of an 8V 1.8 or 2.0, but we offset the angles perpendicular to the wrist pin by 7.5 degrees. The piston would still have a good band in between the head and combustion chamber in the piston. The main questions is "How do we achieve this while keeping the cylinder balanced on the wrist pin?" and "Will the force of combustion drive the piston straight down or will it easily follow the 7.5 degree angle without damaging the cylinders?"
EDIT: There's a lot of good info and ideas in this thread. I'd hate to see this go downhill and have a few pages of arguing ruin it. Continue the good ideas, folks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by VertigoGTI at 2:01 AM 7-31-2006_


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

>> WOW, so it is true 
Well it's at least a claim in a magazine ad.







I would like to see some unbiased support of this. Again, does anyone have one of these engines? They've been for sale for 8 years, where are they? Where are the dyno posts here over the past 8 years stating "OMG look at my dyno" ??








Would love to not be so skeptical but all the data I've seen in the past year does not support this claim. Given the mods listed here we've not seen these power levels. 
>> ill see if i cant come up with specific differences between the 12v and 24 v vw head 
These are known. Not really relative to the goal here. We need to keep focused on the 12v data collection and testing only.
>> I am VERY interested in having someone from TRAC racing come up with some data
I can talk to Stephane.
>> They can make 200hp/liter NA and still get called out.
Yup, I knew the thread would get to this point. Vortex is famous for filling threads full of guesswork and accusations. It's time to get back to dealing with "knowns" only.
KingVR, I'll be contacting you offline as your interest in breaking boundries and thinking outside the box is exactly what we're looking for.
I'm going to have my web guy whip together a web page to start documenting our progress. The forum is getting a bit off topic.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

I talked to Stef. on their WC motors, SCCA had them limited to stock displacement, valves etc. They only managed about 245 crank HP on 276 cams.


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

There you are, I thought for a second you were getting discouraged with all the excess... I am mailing out the scrap head today, Scott is definitely on to something... he supplies my current head designer who has been a Ferrea advocate for over 20 years. 
I'm ready for the solid setup and new headwork...lmk http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
*Use me as the guinea pig... I'm in it for the long haul! *


_Modified by Morrado at 11:04 AM 7-31-2006_


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## Type S (May 5, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

well, ive been following this thread for some time now. and i have to say this is probablly the best thread on vortex ever.
In my quest to make more power NA, everyone ive spoken too is saying that the power is in the head, from the porting to the valvetrain. 
What king wants to do makes sense. i can see a vr making power @9-10k rpm. as long as the head has the proper port. And what cam are you going to run, maybe a custom 300 cam? solid lifters or oem units?
Ive had experience with the bseries motors. we had one of the first street cars to break the 250whp barrier Naturally aspirated. That motor in particular made 257whp and 167lb ft @8200 rpm.  With a more aggressive port and bigger cams, 275whp was easily attainable at 9000rpm. 
But the thing to getting that motor to rev and make power and be reliable was the rod stroke ratio. I think ideal was 1.67. we used one of the dart tall deck blocks, had it bored for 84mm pistions, eagle crank, Eagle rods (longer than stock), and custom weisco pistions. the pistions had the pin moved up and a shorter skirt. I cant remember the # on the head, but i know for a fact that the rods,pistions and crank are readily available now, no more having to wait. And i have a couple of friends that daily drive this exact setup and are making a reliable 250whp.
Anything is possible, once u have the resources. And i think the key to getting the 12v vr to make power in NA form is in the head. Maybe reshaping the ports, and a bullet proof valve train will be the key. As well as maybe destroking the motor, or maybe just getting a set of longer rods and shorter skirted pistion. whats the biggest cam that anyone has run in a vr? where did it stop making power? i think the biggest cam ive seen is the tt 288's. 


_Modified by Type S at 7:23 PM 7-31-2006_


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

>> whats the biggest cam that anyone has run in a vr? where did it stop making power?
308* CAT cams. 14:1 BVH motor fell on it's face. 
It made more power with 288* cams. I have a good idea why. But I'm not going to guess. Going to test.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> whats the biggest cam that anyone has run in a vr? where did it stop making power?
308* CAT cams. 14:1 BVH motor fell on it's face. 
It made more power with 288* cams. I have a good idea why. But I'm not going to guess. Going to test.

do you know the hp difference between the two setups? i'm under the impression the durations on the cams are different between companies. Meaning, if cat made a 288 the powerband would be completely different then TT's 288.


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## Type S (May 5, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> whats the biggest cam that anyone has run in a vr? where did it stop making power?
308* CAT cams. 14:1 BVH motor fell on it's face. 
It made more power with 288* cams. I have a good idea why. But I'm not going to guess. Going to test.


where did this motor stop making power, with the 288's? with a 308 cam, motor should be well into the 8krpm range


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## Type S (May 5, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

any thoughts on actually looking into the rod length, longer rod, less stress at higher rpm, better angles, less wear on the bearings, and a shorter skirt pistion combined with the longer rod should be less stress on the cylinder walls. all of this should aide in the motor being able to spin to 9-10k rpm. 
someone correct me if im wrong


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

Before this gets into a pissing match which is totally useless for the 100's of others reading this... let's just move on. Everyone has ideas. All ideas (well most) are appreciated.... Dont argue about it. If you disagree, give proof than an idea does't work, but be nice about it as people are mostly just trying to help.
>> i have seen a data that shows destroking the vr leads to high reliable rev limits
This is a general truth for anything that moves. Not just the VR6. If you can post the details or source of what you are referring to that would be great. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif If not then we all understand Newton's basic laws of physics.
Let's get back to discussing measurable changes and/or documented findings. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> where did this motor stop making power, with the 288's? with a 308 cam, motor should be well into the 8krpm range
I'm not sure, which is why I hesitated to post this info. The engine builder did not tell me every last detail. I know it ran out of breath far before mechanical limits played a roll. Therefore RPMs were not the main focus of our discussion. (however, KingVRs valve bounce idea has me wanting to re-examine this area)
Type S, yes. These items are all going to be examined. The basics of modern race engine building. Not VR6 specific.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 12:59 PM 7-31-2006_


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## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I run the TT 288's in my vr. Every pull I have made on the dyno peak HP is right around 6000rpm-6100rpm. this is on a dynojet. Friend jim that has a 96 vr with schrick 268's made peak at around 6300rpm (185whp).The highest i have ever seen peak hp on a vr. He runs the mk4 hg though so that might be the reason. Does the power drop off because of the long stroke? or some sort of bottleneck in the flow of the head?
-on a side note, does anyone know if the Race-shop guys have flow bench #'s for their heads? Surprised they have not been more vocal in this thread


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

If you can post those dyno sheets, that'd give great information. Do you know where the torqure fell off at? My best dyno pull had 198whp and 194wtq, but the torque does a 45 degree angle dive right at 5600 RPM.


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (sixblade)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sixblade* »_is it possible to completely re-design the head and make it cost effective in anyway? I would think it would be possible to maintain some of the vr6 head characteristics to do what needs to be done such as the timing set up. 

i believe we discussed that in the earlier pages and concluded it wouldn't be very cost effective, especially without knowing the results beforehand. Plus the goal is to achieve that power on the stock casted head(obviously gutting, valving, and replacement valvetrain parts, etc)


_Modified by fatfreevw at 12:22 AM 8-1-2006_


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (westcoastwhips)*

>>> Yes, please start a new thread or clean this one up
How would I go about cleaning this up since I'm not a moderator/admin? Do you mean start a new post and then go through this old one and copy the good posts into the new one? Or can a Vortex moderator help us out here?


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## yellowslc (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I'll rummage through all 11 pages this evening and delete the non technicals. Your call Bill.
R
it's down to just over 8 pages. Most of the senseless banter has been removed.


_Modified by yellowslc at 6:21 PM 8-1-2006_


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Morrado)*

i have a spare r32 crank. i am not willing to give it up but i will see if it fits in a 12v. so far from what i see its identical to a 12v crank (except for its stroke) man is that thing heavy.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_i have a spare r32 crank. i am not willing to give it up but i will see if it fits in a 12v. so far from what i see its identical to a 12v crank (except for its stroke) man is that thing heavy.


take pics? and also th epics i been begging you for


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## PhrequenC (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fourthchirpin)*

how is the crank going to make a difference on how high the engine will rev?? i thought it had to do with how much stroke the valves and cylinders could handle


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_i have a spare r32 crank. i am not willing to give it up but i will see if it fits in a 12v. so far from what i see its identical to a 12v crank (except for its stroke) man is that thing heavy.

I was always under the impression that all VR cranks were more or less identical.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (EvilEyez)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EvilEyez* »_how is the crank going to make a difference on how high the engine will rev?? i thought it had to do with how much stroke the valves and cylinders could handle

It's not directly related to how fast it'll rev, it's mainly about displacement and piston speed. One revolution for a piston that is traveling 90.9mm @ 1000RPM will be moving at a slower than a piston that is traveling 95.9mm at the same RPM. 
This is why many Japanese motors can spin faster; they have smaller strokes with bigger pistons (oversquare design). A B16 has a stroke of 77mm and a B18 has a stroke of 87.2mm. The piston is moving slower for every revolution over a VW engine.
It's part of what can make an engine rev higher or not, but it's not the main reason.
A TVR Speed 6 (4.0 liter) has a stroke of 92mm, still has a stock redline of 7700RPM and provides ample torque down low. However, we're giving up over a liter in displacement, finger roller rockers, another 2V per cylinder...


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

Almost forgot
Here's a cutaway from the 24V head, might help out a bit in the porting of the 12V. I like the way it trumpets down about halfway.








Comparison to the 12V. Just ignore the combustion chamber.










_Modified by VertigoGTI at 5:44 PM 8-2-2006_


----------



## francocorrado (Nov 23, 2004)

Cleaning this thread up was a great idea.
However please do not move it to a forum where only a select few can access. I may have nothing technical to add, but am very intrigued and am learning alot through this thread, this is awesome that this thread can bring together all these 12v gurus and actually do something with it.
Keep up the great work guys


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (EvilEyez)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EvilEyez* »_how is the crank going to make a difference on how high the engine will rev?? i thought it had to do with how much stroke the valves and cylinders could handle

A class I took recently used an engine as an example of techniques to calculate velocity and acceleration of particles in general plane motion (translation of the piston connected to a rotating crankshaft). In this case, you were given the connecting rod length, stroke, crank angle and RPM of the motor. Then there is a somewhat involved process to find the velocity of the piston at certain crank angles.
Long story short, pistons pull some unbelievable speeds and g's (thus forces) at even idle engine speeds. Increasing the stroke and turning serious RPM is going to put additional stresses on the internals, which may or may not be up to the task.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

Not sure how many people realize this, but the head in this picture is not showing the INTAKE, but is showing the EXHAUST port. I just looked at my ported head and the intakes have a much tigher radius than the radius on the exhaust runner.


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Not sure how many people realize this, but the head in this picture is not showing the INTAKE, but is showing the EXHAUST port. I just looked at my ported head and the intakes have a much tigher radius than the radius on the exhaust runner.









can you get some pics?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ArpyArpad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ArpyArpad* »_
can you get some pics?

I need a damaged cylinder head to be donated...I'd like to hang on to the 2 stock cores that I currently have. Any assistants?


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
I need a damaged cylinder head to be donated...I'd like to hang on to the 2 stock cores that I currently have. Any assistants?









Sorry dude--just sent my spare to Bill. 
-Wayne


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_Sorry dude--just sent my spare to Bill. 
-Wayne

Shucks!! Any other takers...or rather, _contributors_?










_Modified by KingVR at 9:45 PM 8-3-2006_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

KingVR: since you're in the valve business, I have a question:
Is there a generic 'rule of thumb' equation giving the approximate valve float RPM vs major design parameters? ie. sprung mass, cam lift (maybe peak acceleration as opposed to lift?), and spring rate. 
RPM = constant * springrate^x  + offset
. sprungmass^y * camlift^z
Ben


_Modified by BennyB at 9:38 AM 8-4-2006_


----------



## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Not sure how many people realize this, but the head in this picture is not showing the INTAKE, but is showing the EXHAUST port. I just looked at my ported head and the intakes have a much tigher radius than the radius on the exhaust runner.

Are you sure that isn't an intake port for cylinder 2, 4 or 6? As they do have that definite taller oblong shape about them on the intake side as well as cylinder 1, 3 and 5 do on the exhaust side of the head. I may be wrong but I suppose it could go either way. We definitly need to find a more definitive picture first.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Not sure how many people realize this, but the head in this picture is not showing the INTAKE, but is showing the EXHAUST port. I just looked at my ported head and the intakes have a much tigher radius than the radius on the exhaust runner.









It appears to be a ported head, and it is definitely an exhaust runner because you can see the exhaust studs on the right side of the image, making that a definite exhaust runner.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>>> It appears to be a ported head, 
Just cleaned up for the photo.
>>> Need cylinder head
Scott, what info do you need? We can get you anything you might need to run those apps you mentioned. 
The website is underway. It's going to be very basic at first but as we continue to get data and do actual WORK on this we'll be updateing it.
It's going to be ugly at first. Poor photos, poor layout... but we know you guys just want the info... the "polish" can wait til later.
I hope to have a URL for you this weekend...


----------



## Type S (May 5, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>>> 










that outline drawn in the blue sharpie, is that the oem design of the ports?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>>> It appears to be a ported head, 
Just cleaned up for the photo.
>>> Need cylinder head
Scott, what info do you need? We can get you anything you might need to run those apps you mentioned. 


I want to do my own style of hackering-up on a head to work on my project...remember, my project is different from yours.







It is imperitive that I have it in my hands to analyze.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Edited by request of Bildon. 
How bout those Mets?










_Modified by Vr6Fidelity at 12:13 PM 8-4-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_KingVR: since you're in the valve business, I have a question:
Is there a generic 'rule of thumb' equation giving the approximate valve float RPM vs major design parameters? ie. sprung mass, cam lift (maybe peak acceleration as opposed to lift?), and spring rate. 
RPM = constant * springrate^x  + offset
. sprungmass^y * camlift^z
Ben

Yes, there is. Since I'm not the engineering, I forwarded this on to one of our in-house engineers who is also a VW/Audi enthusiast who is going to provide us with this formula shortly. I do sales and technical assistance, and I'll be honest, I'm not the engineer type at all since I am the kind that will keep changing combinations until I get what I am looking for, which works for me just fine. I notice most engineers always have a quick answer to things _cannot_ be done. While correct most of the time, there are so many variables to take into account that I don't understand how math can provide an exact solution every time. I have major respect for them regardless, as it takes all types to make the world turn http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

You would need to know a few things to figure that out, but it can be solved mathematically. 
1. Mass of the valve, retainer, and lifter
2. Initial spring rate
3. Maximum spring rate at full lift
4. Acceleration of the valve at max lift
The acceleration is tricky due to the hyperbolic curve of the camshaft.
The limit is when the inertial force of the moving valve assembly exceeds the rate of acceleration which is prescribed by the closing profile of the cam lobe. At a certain RPM the valve will not be able to accelerate toward the closed position without leaving the camshaft lobe and "floating". The impact of the valve assembly hitting the cam will quickly destroy the lobe and lifter interface. 
A cam shaft for a high rpm application will probably be asymmetric with a slower closing velocity with respect to opening.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_ I don't understand how math can provide an exact solution every time. 

It rarely does. The math gets you in the ballpark,the fudge factors get you to 3rd base and trial and error gets you home.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
It rarely does. The math gets you in the ballpark,the fudge factors get you to 3rd base and trial and error gets you home.


Exactly...that's why I'm not too concerned with doing math, in addition to being horrible at much beyond Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. How would one account for the frequency resonance that a spring incurrs during it's natural resonance at specific cycles? At that point, it's trial and error for someone like myself, or you ask an engineer to do a bunch more math.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

In general, a properly engineered compression spring's first resonance will be 15-20 times its maximum operational frequency. 
This is also for sinusoidal motion of a constant rate spring, which is the worst case scenario. 
Valve springs are progressive rate, and are not moving sinusoidally, which almost totally eliminates resonance. This because your excitation is at a variable frequency (lobe shape) and your natural resonant frequency is also changing with preload. As if that wasn't enough to comfort you, The amount of time your are spending at the resonant combination is zero since the two curves do not have the same slope. So, even if the frequency wasn't 20x your design frequency, you would still not be spending enough time to resonate the spring.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*

>> The acceleration is tricky due to the hyperbolic curve of the camshaft.
Lift, velocity, acceleration... but then we have to talk about "Jerk" and inevitably somebody will get offended because they ont understand the terms








If we had the 4stHEAD software package this would be a snap. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Still trying to find somebody with access to that.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Fourth derivavtives can suck it. I want to call the 5th chump or ****** but someone already named it.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

Wow, heck of a post you have there Need. I forgot you were that smart. 
You have your Phd right? 
I want you guys to know your ALL "Jerks"
Whats the name of the fifth?


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*

You guys are getting off topic again....
E-mail sent Bill, and bump.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*

Jerk is the 3rd and I think the 4th has been described as 'snap' before. I believe that was previous to it being used by rappers, however.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

this project is never happening, and if it does the results are going to be dissapointing. thats what i think. to be quite honest talk to techtonics, i think they have the highest hp all motor 12v out there. this is something that has been tried many times and everyone has failed. good luck tho


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*

>> this project is never happening
It already started in April. 
>> and if it does the results are going to be dissapointing.
Even if we prove the "wall" cant be broken, I expect to have a reason. If a reason is found then most likely we can find a way to resolve it. Currently those that have "tried it many times" do not have a good answer for the question... "Why?" 
>> talk to techtonics
Chris Rhiel and I discussed this for quite a while. That is one of the reasons we embarked on this project.
>> they have the highest hp all motor 12v out there
Yes.
>> good luck tho
So do you want to help?
BTW.... this forum will be used to discuss things but the data and info about the project from this point on will be located here:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...h.cfm


----------



## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
BTW.... this forum will be used to discuss things but the data and info about the project from this point on will be located here:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...h.cfm 

Looking forward to seeing the results. If Bildon can't do it, then I don't know who can. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kevinmacd (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (DHill)*

Wow how did i miss this thread for so long
I must be retarded

Good info in here
just finished reading
B4 anyone asks yes i know i still need dyno sheets for my setup 
Hopefully this month, My friend here in town just got his mustang dyno delivered!!!


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> this project is never happening
It already started in April. 


ok so what engine building has actually been done since april because i dont even see flow bench numbers or anything. i tried to give some input but mr.king thought i was too stupid and didnt realize i made some joking comments in the process... but thats ok he has never built anything impressive anyways. being he works for fererra i thought he would have a super cylinder head out by now, but i guess he must work in the shipping department or something. i guess my 250 WHP 24v vr6 shows i dont know what i am talking about tho


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
ok so what engine building has actually been done since april because i dont even see flow bench numbers or anything. i tried to give some input but mr.king thought i was too stupid and didnt realize i made some joking comments in the process... but thats ok he has never built anything impressive anyways. being he works for fererra i thought he would have a super cylinder head out by now, but i guess he must work in the shipping department or something. i guess my 250 WHP 24v vr6 shows i dont know what i am talking about tho









My goodness, of all people to be hating on an All Motor thread...wow! 
I guess it's relative, but most people were impressed with the 198whp/194wtq that I put down about 5 years ago with nothing more than a BVH of my own design and DSR 256 cams.
...just give me some time, I've only been at Ferrea for just over a year, a no I am not in the shipping dept...nice stab though. I've been taking my time learning from the people I talk to daily, and working on my new house...you know, the important things in life. Some of us have grown up.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 12v engineering project*

>> ok so what engine building has actually been done since april 
Stage 1 done. I'll get data online at some point.
>> because i dont even see flow bench numbers or anything.
There are no flow bench #s because stg 1 is a bone stock head.
Just sit back, relax and wait a few weeks for us to get some data onto the website. As I have repeatedly mentioned...this is a long project which will take us way into the fall. We dont rush our work, especially when there are real customers, and our other businesses to deal with.


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
ok so what engine building has actually been done since april because i dont even see flow bench numbers or anything. i tried to give some input but mr.king thought i was too stupid and didnt realize i made some joking comments in the process... but thats ok he has never built anything impressive anyways. being he works for fererra i thought he would have a super cylinder head out by now, but i guess he must work in the shipping department or something. i guess my *250 WHP 24v vr6* shows i dont know what i am talking about tho









Got a dyno of that? Nobody in the 24v tech forum has EVER seen an NA 24v even close to that.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_Got a dyno of that? Nobody in the 24v tech forum has EVER seen an NA 24v even close to that.


Billy says otherwise.


_Quote, originally posted by *billyvr6* »_If not, then yeah... 270whp has already been had from a bored out naturally aspirated 24v.

This is a great thread, I'm definatly interested to see some ideas thrown around with the head, as I feel it's the barrier. These VR heads just don't flow worth anything, it's been proven over and over. I have a stock head sitting here just waiting to be worked, so after I see what's the best way to do it, it's off to a shop. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by djsheijkdfj at 7:14 PM 8-8-2006_


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (djsheijkdfj)*

Thats bored out -- I wasnt necessarily calling him on it -- as I know not much at ALL has been done on 24v's -- I was more curious to know about it.
Meh this is getting OT Sorry.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (djsheijkdfj)*

>> Nobody in the 24v tech forum has EVER seen 
Then they all need to wake up.








24v VR6, 12:1 static CR, 272* Schrick, Log Manifold,w/* STOCK* ports just cleaned up. *285 WHP* 
http://www.riehltek.com
This is NOT a 24v thread however...


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:28 PM 8-8-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_KingVR: since you're in the valve business, I have a question:
Is there a generic 'rule of thumb' equation giving the approximate valve float RPM vs major design parameters? ie. sprung mass, cam lift (maybe peak acceleration as opposed to lift?), and spring rate. 
RPM = constant * springrate^x  + offset
. sprungmass^y * camlift^z
Ben

_Modified by BennyB at 9:38 AM 8-4-2006_

Sorry for the delay...here's what I got after asking that question:
























Enjoy!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_Got a dyno of that?

Actually, I know that car has been on a few dynos, the numbers are right there, IIRC it 243whp. I got to see a video of it running a 12.5x, with only a 1.90 60' time too, I can't wait to see that car run when it starts to hook solid 1.6's. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_Nobody in the 24v tech forum has EVER seen an NA 24v even close to that.

Well, no offense to anyone, but there are a lot of people in "tech forums" that have their heads so far up their ass that they can't see what else is going on elsewhere.


----------



## EVIL6 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

So after 9 pages, are we going to see anything come out of all this talk ? What is ready or almost ready for us to buy ? I gots me an engine to build so lemme know.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (EVIL6)*

Scroll up about 6 posts... patience


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

I had some time to read through these posts again this morning...

_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_I guess it's relative, but most people were impressed with the 198whp/194wtq that I put down about 5 years ago with nothing more than a BVH of my own design and DSR 256 cams.

Scott, I think you should re-post/re-word that quote for this topic so people do not get the wrong idea, there was more to your scenerio than just a big valve head and a set of cams. Exhaust, race pipes, thinner gaskets, chips, engine bolt ons, modified inlet & exhaust manifolds and porting make power for sure.
I think you were messing around with a homemade header for awhile too? I can't remember if that was on there for the power numbers of if it was the ported out exhaust manifolds.
Most likely the manifolds.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I had some time to read through these posts again this morning...
Scott, I think you should re-post/re-word that quote for this topic so people do not get the wrong idea, there was more to your scenerio than just a big valve head and a set of cams. Exhaust, race pipes, thinner gaskets, chips, engine bolt ons, modified inlet & exhaust manifolds and porting make power for sure.
I think you were messing around with a homemade header for awhile too? I can't remember if that was on there for the power numbers of if it was the ported out exhaust manifolds.
Most likely the manifolds.









Point taken, I was a bit vauge with my description, but it should seem obvious that one would not be running a BVH without the basics around it, such as opened exhaust and better breathing intake.
To clarify any confusion:
~Cone Filter with Air-Bath Intake
~Stock Muffler with resonators and Cat removed
~GIAC's BASIC chip program, not specific for cams/headwork at all
~Lower Intake Manifold Port-Matched to Headwork
~Exhaust Manifolds Port-Matched to Headwork
~DSR 256 Regrinds
~LW FlyWheel
Items that were left stock:
~Stock tranny gearing, no ratios changed from factory GTI issue
~Stock intake manifold UPPER. (Imessed with an enlarged plenum with ZERO GAIN)
~Stock Springs, Retainers, Locks, Lifters, etc.
~Stock Bottom-End, only re-ringed all 6 pistons while replacing a broken piston
Note: Header was dyno'd but just like the upper manifold attempt, it showed ZERO GAIN. 
I truly believe that the stock springs and heavy retainer and heavy weight of the valves in general are a major factor in holding back the 12 valve engine. I produced 198whp and 194htq, but the torque floated at that area from 3800RPM through 5600RPM and suddenly nose-dives drastically at a 45 degree angle. I can't imagine what else could cause such an occurance. 
Mod-for-Mod, a 4-valve will make more power in the higher RPM vs a 2-valve motor of the same configuration. I feel this is for 2 reasons:
~Two valves/holes will allow for more airflow area. Specific to the VR6, the 12v has it's valves directly verticle which requires a sharp turn in order to enter/exit the cylinder. The 24v has it's valves recilned at angles allowing a less radiacal turn required to do the same function.
~4 valve per-cylinder setup will have MUCH LESS weight per valve for it's spring to control. When your exhaust valve it almost closed and the intake has already started to open, we call it "Valve Overlap". When the exhaust valve bounces off of it's seat and re-opens, you now have an uncontrolled amount of varying Valve Overlap induced. Exhaust pressure can now start to fill in the void of where the intake charge would be filling.
The idea of valve weight being a major factor in higher RPM power gains is not a wild theory of my own, it's a known fact and reason that engine builders spend thousands on Ti valves and LW Lifters, simply to have a compettitive edge against the next guy. At a mild 6k RPM, each valve is opening, then closing *60 times per second*. To think that it's perfectly resonable for 2 large valves, compared with a 4valve setup version, to remain in total control for the same number of cycles per minute is just simply not correct.
There's always the inherent flow benefit of the 4-valve setup that the12v VR6 will never surpass assuming everything else is equal, but we can get close if we contain everything mechanically as best we can.


_Modified by KingVR at 6:21 PM 8-9-2006_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Scott, do you have a dyno that you can post of your engine back then?
I keep seeing you post up about how bad your torque dropped off up top, would like to check that out.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Scott, do you have a dyno that you can post of your engine back then?
I keep seeing you post up about how bad your torque dropped off up top, would like to check that out.


I'll try and dig it up, but honestly, simply look at most all 12 valve graphs...here's one I found in about 30 seconds: 








I got that from here: http://www.vr6dynos.com/12vmk3vr6175hp.shtml
Has that trademark 5600RPM "Jump-off-a-cliff" kind of death to it...just like mine.



_Modified by KingVR at 6:16 PM 8-9-2006_


----------



## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

check this out http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...61001


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_I'll try and dig it up, but honestly, simply look at most all 12 valve graphs...here's one I found in about 30 seconds

You made it seem like yours was dying off more than a typical N/A VR6 power curve when you mention this and refer to your dyno. So, I was looking to see yours and not some random dyno chart from anywhere on the internet.


----------



## FLATBLACKMK2 (Oct 10, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

damn how did i miss this thread..............








keep up the good work


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

Here's the only dyno that I can find. It has been years, so if this is the highest dyno pull I made, I wholeheartedly appologize for claiming a higher number, but I truly do recall having hp and tq _above_ 190. Regardless, I don't even have the engine anymore, so it really doesn't matter, the point is the curve of the drop-off is quite sudden:








...here's a dyno of someone who has replaced the factory springs in a 12v VR6:








(this is from: http://www.vr6dynos.com/12vdynorobertwalker.shtml )
Now, you sound disappointed that you thought I was talking about a more radical drop-off...how much more radical can it get? A 45 degree dump is pretty harsh when you look at how much softer it is when the stock springs are changed out, and much softer in the 24v engine like below:









I could be entirely wrong on this, so I'm planning on setting up the lightest parts possible in an unported head. Perhaps I may use my DSR 256 cam to give a broader band.


----------



## TKendall (Jan 7, 2006)

Has the concept of single throttle bodies been brought up yet? I just started reading this thread. If you look at the E30 M3, it produces just shy of 200whp out of a 2.3L 16 valve, 10.5:1 compression. It runs 4 throttle bodies that all share a common plenum. I don't know if anyone has done this on a VR. The closest I've seen is a set of webber side drafts on an ABA. The downside is development would be costly, however adapting from something else might be a straightforward affair...
















Note on the pictures below, the slide throttle body setup. Just one plate as opposed to 4 butterflies.
















I'd look into the engineering of older DTM cars


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (TKendall)*

The issue with idividual TB's is that it would require standalone engine management.
The goal right now is to stick with the factory ECU with custom programing.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (James 93SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *James 93SLC* »_The issue with idividual TB's is that it would require standalone engine management.
The goal right now is to stick with the factory ECU with custom programing.

...not if they pulled from a common plenum at least.


----------



## rich_becks (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_ A 45 degree dump is pretty harsh when you look at how much softer it is when the stock springs are changed out, and much softer in the 24v engine like below:

Hmmm, I can agree that the 24v is slightly "softer" as it goes from 175 ft.lbs @5.5 to 140 lb.ft at 7, but as to the other 12v, this is just as bad as yours in that it goes from 175 [email protected] to [email protected] which is practically identical to yours.
I think you are confusing people by describing things as a 45 degree dump since the difference between the graphs is that the Y-scale is more compact on the second picture and hence the gradient is different. In figure terms the drop-off if anything is better on yours as it drops off slightly later!
I'm not saying that the valve-train isn't the problem here and as time goes on your suspicions may be confirmed, but on the evidence presented here, his replacement springs made bugger all difference.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (rich_becks)*

True, the Y-axis does change the visual appearance between graphs. It just seems strange that I'm sustaining above 175 for nearly 2000 RPM, then decides to simply go home and give up the ghost. In the graph of the dyno that _has_ a non-factory spring, even though his curve isn't as flat and stable like mine, there is no sudden change in output.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> single throttle bodies been brought up yet? I just started reading this thread.
Start at the beginning








ITBs could still be manged by a reprogrammed VR6 Motronic using a TPS signal for load but then "around town" driveability becomes an issue. We are not just building a race engine here.
Almost nobody is going to pay for ITBs. I've spoken with TWM and they are willing to do the prototype but it will cost ~ $10,000. My experience is the VW market wont support it. Lance Hayward confirmed this as he had a setup...no takers. The only way we'd do this would be on a custom one off basis or we could make them more affordably by doing a production run but then we'd need to pony up the $10k for R&D and prototypes.
We've concentrated on making the stock stuff work to its fullest and then onto Euro type intakes and finally we'll be developing high flow log type manifolds. If it become obvious that ITBs are truely a must we'll cross tha bridge when we come to it.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Now, you sound disappointed that you thought I was talking about a more radical drop-off...how much more radical can it get?

Ha ha ha, not disappointed, like I mentioned previously I just wanted to see what you were talking about with your old engine power curve, not a random VR6.
Anyway, when your look at your dyno and compare it to my last dyno ever with the old car (in red) they fall off exactly the same, within 1-3wht when you match RPM points. So to compare valvetrain notes, mine was Autotech springs with stock/OEM retainers. 












_Modified by billyVR6 at 11:29 AM 8-10-2006_


----------



## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hi: 
*I am Luiche from Puerto Rico a lot of people know me because of our Rabbit automatic project that has over 600 HP @ wheels but let me say that this year I am a Autocross rookie and doing fine, currently i am doing fine in my class but I am going to build a full race engine, i think that the problem with the 12 valve head can be fix and i have a Puertorrican Guru on that.
We can help each other and this is a very,very nice thread I just whrite to you at Bildon about making my 2.8 to a 3.2 what really you recomend to begin when you look for maximum power because I read that you want to make a 2.9 WHY?
Att, we are working our first serius VR6 and have a lot of expectations and a 16 valve 9.94 @ 142 MPG drag car to back up our VR6 interest.*


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

Billy...did you steal my engine and dyno it without me knowing? LOL
Our curves are very similar, let alone the curve of the output for both torque and hp...closest one I've seen yet. What is your list of mods on that pull?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_What is your list of mods on that pull?

Stock 2.8L bottom end, 113,000 miles, no re-ring.
Ported head, stock/OEM valves, Joe P. lapped them on rebuild, no valve job or seat work at all.
Ported lower intake manifold.
Ported throttle body, stock throttle plate.
Stock exhaust manifolds and downpipe, not ported.
Euro intake manifold, gasket matched to lower (to this day, this is the only part I question)
MK4 gasket.
Schrick 268's.
GIAC chip.
Turn2 cold air intake.
2.5" exhaust with no cat.
UR pulley set.
10lbs flywheel.
I had a bunch of stuff byassed and deleted, PCV, AC, EGR, TB lines, etc., etc.
The manifold had an Evolution Motorsports 1/4" heat spacer. I used Magnecore wires with NGK replacement plugs.


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
ITBs could still be manged by a reprogrammed VR6 Motronic using a TPS signal for load but then "around town" driveability becomes an issue. 

I'm not convinced ITBs are the answer on a 12v. But I'm curious how you propose to get the stock Motronic to do Alpha-N load sensing when its a MAF system? If this is off-topic, just IM me. 
I'm also not convinced that factory Motronic is the way to go to get past the 250 whp wall but maybe I'm biased. The MAF sensor housing could potentially become a bottleneck not to mention all the features you get with a decent programmable EMS. 


_Modified by darren p. at 8:19 PM 8-10-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

No I'll reply here for the benefit of all. Alpha-N is a simple method using a map to lookup values for every throtlle angle (alpha) and every engine speed (N). MAF plays no factor and sensor would be removed. But again implementing only an Alpha-N type system is a bad solution for around town driving and would really only be suitable for racing where you dont care about low speed, low load performance.
edit: Oh I see what you are saying. The Motronic is completly reprogrammed with no regard ofr MAF or EGR or for race engine even OXS.
It runs of a high resolution fixed fuel and timing map and thats it. Just liek a MoTec...but better cuase its a hacked Bosch










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 5:23 PM 8-10-2006_


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I understand how Alpha-N works and its shortcomings, I'm just curious how you would get the factory Motronic in our VWs to do it?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (darren p.)*

>> how you would get the factory Motronic in our VWs to do it?
It's damn near magic








IM me for more info.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> single throttle bodies been brought up yet? I just started reading this thread.
Start at the beginning








ITBs could still be manged by a reprogrammed VR6 Motronic using a TPS signal for load but then "around town" driveability becomes an issue. We are not just building a race engine here.
Almost nobody is going to pay for ITBs. I've spoken with TWM and they are willing to do the prototype but it will cost ~ $10,000. My experience is the VW market wont support it. Lance Hayward confirmed this as he had a setup...no takers. The only way we'd do this would be on a custom one off basis or we could make them more affordably by doing a production run but then we'd need to pony up the $10k for R&D and prototypes.
We've concentrated on making the stock stuff work to its fullest and then onto Euro type intakes and finally we'll be developing high flow log type manifolds. If it become obvious that ITBs are truely a must we'll cross tha bridge when we come to it.

But then you have to spend _more_ money to make ITBs actually work.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Here's the only dyno that I can find. It has been years, so if this is the highest dyno pull I made, I wholeheartedly appologize for claiming a higher number, but I truly do recall having hp and tq _above_ 190. Regardless, I don't even have the engine anymore, so it really doesn't matter, the point is the curve of the drop-off is quite sudden:








...here's a dyno of someone who has replaced the factory springs in a 12v VR6:








(this is from: http://www.vr6dynos.com/12vdynorobertwalker.shtml ).

Interesting that most of the sheets are only peaking at about 180wtq isn't it. Head flow limit perhaps? It's funny how similar all our dynos look with so much different work going on.
Here's an older sheet of mine for comparison, this is before Joe redid my head and I took the header off:


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

After looking at all of these dyno graphs, I've never ever actually seen a dyno of a 12v making OVER 200whp...I'm sure they exist, but don't recall one ever being posted...bring'em out!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

They're mythical! I think Billy has my run files of 196-197whp pulls with 14:1 a/f somewhere. The car would have made over 200whp easy if the cam didn't snap and piss me off. 
There are sheets of Anythony's ~225whp ITB/race gas pulls as well.. not on my server though.


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_After looking at all of these dyno graphs, I've never ever actually seen a dyno of a 12v making OVER 200whp...I'm sure they exist, but don't recall one ever being posted...bring'em out!









here's one (technically) from atomic motorsports website.








more info http://atomicmotorsports.net/p....html



_Modified by ArpyArpad at 9:44 AM 8-11-2006_


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ArpyArpad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ArpyArpad* »_
here's one (technically) from atomic motorsports website.


Atomic is a local shop and I've had the pleasure of riding in the owner's corrado, it felt fantastic.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Zoso)*

Please guys... this has deteriorated into a general VR6 thread. Let stay focused on the project. I know you guys are impatient but we do need to keep this cleaner if it's going to be around in a few months.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_After looking at all of these dyno graphs, I've never ever actually seen a dyno of a 12v making OVER 200whp...I'm sure they exist, but don't recall one ever being posted...bring'em out!









This is Joe Pinto's factory 2.9L OEM bottom end car, still with stock valves, minimal intake runner porting and stock intake manifold on these runs. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## yingNyang (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (TKendall)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TKendall* »_









While I know you are looking at the head for most of your gains, as that seems to be where your "wall" is...might some gains lie is further heat management with the air induction?
You (Bildon, et al) may remember a former (current?) forum member did various thermal coatings on a Schrick manifold and gained 40whp (or was it torque?) compared to an EIP ported manifold. If memory serves he did a heat emissive coating on the topside of the manifold, ceramic coatings on the valve-cover side, and air-flow-aid on the inside of the manifold.
This brings me to why I quote the above picture and the carbon-fiber intake manifold. Why the cost might be prohibitive, what might the power gains be from a full carbon-fiber VR6 intake manifold? Does carbon-fiber not have good heat-emissive properties? You would also be able to design the inside as you see fit and could be used with individual throttle bodies as well. This could facilitate the additional flow that is needed.
That is just an idea, even though I know you (Bildon) are trying to concentrate on heads, as they are more readily available.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (yingNyang)*

honestly through just general observations, i would of been more into this project if it was a 24v motor. i mean the 12v is tech from the early 90's. I dont know how much more can be done to a 12v head? other then to make parts lighter that can make a huge difference. a few people here have showed that the traditional bvh's were not the best flowing.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fourthchirpin)*

>> forum member did various thermal coatings on a Schrick manifold and gained 40whp (or was it torque?)
Or was it 4 ?








Show me that before and after (all other things equal) test
Dont put too much emphasis on the phenolic heat spacer craze. It's been around since the 60s and they don't really change the temp of the column of air RUSHING through the center of the intake tract.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:21 PM 8-11-2006_


----------



## yingNyang (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ Or was it 4 ?








Show me that before and after (all other things equal) test

http://www.corrado-club.ca/tec...p.pdf

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon* »_Dont put too much emphasis on the phenolic heat spacer craze. It's been around since the 60s and they don't really change the temp of the column of air RUSHING through the center of the intake tract.

I wasn't talking about the heat spacer, but making the intake charge cooler. I am merely regurgitating some information in the above link. Feel free to read it and discount it.


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (yingNyang)*

Thermal management will allow you to have a slightly cooler and more consistent air temps, but is certainly not any way to make serious NA power. This can only really be done by maximizing the amount of air/fuel mixtue in the cylinder, high compression, and combustion chamber design. In addition to increased displacement, this it the only thing that will net additional horsepower.


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## yingNyang (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_Thermal management will allow you to have a slightly cooler and more consistent air temps, but is certainly not any way to make serious NA power. This can only really be done by maximizing the amount of air/fuel mixtue in the cylinder, high compression, and combustion chamber design. In addition to increased displacement, this it the only thing that will net additional horsepower. 

In no way am I implying that thermal management is a way to make serious NA power. I was mentioning it as another possible in helping with passing the 250whp wall. Granted, making maximum power has to come elsewhere, from inside the motor, this is obvious, but I would imagine there would be some benefit. I was merely making Bildon aware of the success of another forum member in drawing significant gains from a 12v motor, which I thought was the purpose of this thread, in addition to Bildon showing how they will go about building this amazing motor.


----------



## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (yingNyang)*

As stated earlier in this thread, these VR engines have a power drop off after a given rpm,(normally aspired), 5500 rpm or so. 
No matter what you add externally for manifolds, cams etc.
The "cylinder head" is the problem, -(airflow)-, plain and simple, 
when these engines seem to hit a wall powerwise after all other power making things like intake and exhaust manifolding, cams, valves, valve springs, comp ratio etc, 
then there is a built in restriction, that being the cylinderheads airflow.
Someone will have to basically bore out the ports to as large as they will go before hitting the waterjackets to make enough airflow to do 275 hp or more normally aspired.
All the other things spoken of in this thread will make power to some extent or another, but the basic problem with this engine is that it's head sucks big time and needs airflow before anything else.
Lets put a crossectional idea in here, a K20/K24 4 cylinder Acura engine has intake ports with approx 45 m/m of crossectional area at the flange to the intake manifold.
Customers of mine have made up to 330hp at the wheels with 
2500 cc engines with these heads, not my port work, but with my intake manifolds that taper out to way over 50+ m/m per port,
large comp ratios, cams etc, at approx 9000+ rpm.
Yes this a 4 valve engine but the area of the ports are very large compared to the VR
The VR6 has intake ports of approx 36m/m or less crossectional area at the manifold flange and taper down from there.
So get out those big big tapered reaming tools and have at it.
Valve float is not the wall these engines are hitting, it's the ports lack of airflow which is holding the engine back,
the stock ports are well designed for their intended purpose, "torque" for moving heavy little cars, not high RPM HP.
These engines will rev up just like any other engine with the basic good rods, pistons etc.
These engines can be converted to solid cam profiles quite easily, and all the parts are available in the aftermarket to do it and then rev to 8000+, but not with big power, not untill the airflow is there to be taken advantage of.
I hope this influences someone to go bark large amounts of metal out one of these heads and go make some big power.
Here's hoping. 
LHP


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Dont put too much emphasis on the phenolic heat spacer craze.

I partly agree, it doesn't influence initial power much, but it does help a TON with heatsoak on dyno runs and hot lapping the cars in brackets. It leaves the manifold temp more consistent, as well as the intake air temp.
I can see how on a road race car it wouldn't make a difference as the manifold is going to heat soak from engine bay heat anyway without the chance to cool a drag car will.


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## JCB (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (yingNyang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yingNyang* »_
You (Bildon, et al) may remember a former (current?) forum member did various thermal coatings on a Schrick manifold and gained 40whp (or was it torque?) compared to an EIP ported manifold. If memory serves he did a heat emissive coating on the topside of the manifold, ceramic coatings on the valve-cover side, and air-flow-aid on the inside of the manifold.
.


This is the referenced dyno as posted from the owner long ago:









If memory serves me, the comparison is a modified stock manifold, EIP manifold and the Schrick VGI manifold.
I have a thermal coated intake manifold and lower intake on my VR6 and I regularly participate in track days/club events. After 20 minute sessions I can pop the hood and rest my hand on the manifold and it is barely warm. If I come back 45 minutes later the manifold is hot to the touch. I have taken my IR thermometer to check temps but I reviewed my notes and I can't find anything logged and I can't remember the numbers.
Cooler, denser air means more fuel can get mixed!


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## JCB (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (JCB)*

And since nobody said it yet I'll step up to the plate.
Where have all these engine experts been hiding the last 12 years?


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (JCB)*

LHB, Thank you! You just saved me typing the same thing *yet again.* 
>> Someone will have to basically bore out the ports to as large as they will go before hitting the waterjackets to make enough airflow to do 275 hp or more normally aspired.
There is one more issue at hand. And yes it does result in a flow restriction but it may not be due to the port diameter or shape alone. This area will be our major area of concentration once we start flowing the stage 2, stage 3 heads. We'll expand upon it at that time.
That graph makes no sense until it hits 4500. (understanding that its a VSR) The legend colors dont match the graph. I dont like most of these "Dyno charts" everybody likes to post. I'd like to see charts with Tq, HP, AFR, Timing and Fuel all presented. This is the data we will be publishing.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:28 AM 8-12-2006_


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Fair enough.
Mill the ports out so they're square. That way you don't have to take out as much in terms of the extremities of the ports (very top, bottom and sides) and you won't have to get so close to the water jacket.
I think that we have a TON of ideas going on in this post, but we have no order. If any progress is to be done, then we either need to list what problems need to be sorted *or* designate areas to volunteers that are able to do the work.
For example: 
Vortex Member A does valvetrain
Vortex Member B works on porting the head
Vortex Member C helps with intake manifold to match head.
While Bildon Motorsports has the ability to do all of this, they also have their own business to conduct. I think breaking up the work would help everyone.
Anyone willing to take any tasks?


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Fair enough.
I think that we have a TON of ideas going on in this post, but we have no order. If any progress is to be done, then we either need to list what problems need to be sorted *or* designate areas to volunteers that are able to do the work.
For example: 
Vortex Member A does valvetrain
Vortex Member B works on porting the head
Vortex Member C helps with intake manifold to match head.
Anyone willing to take any tasks?

I, Vortex Member "A", willll take the valvetrain approach, obviously. I need to work out a few details on getting it sorted out, then dyno an unported head to see what the curve ends up looking like. My hope is to see the dreaded 5600 fallout not be so dramatic as it usually is...we shall see. 
I just picked up an OBD-I head...and WOW the ports are so extremely small compared to my ported head. I've got 2 additional stock OBD-II heads, and I don't recall the ports looking so small. Perhaps because they haven't been cleaned up like my ported head and this new OBD-I head since they have both been glass-beaded.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_There is one more issue at hand. _Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:28 AM 8-12-2006_

I'd like to hear what you guys are thinking here. The least ported are in most heads is the back of the seat and into the bowl and around the guide. The short side radius is also an area that needs improvement in the long ports. There's also some sharp turns in the short ports that can be improved on. 
It seems that no one has really run cams with big lift in these heads either. If you look at the lift that the sbc guys use to make big power, all of our cams look very piddly, not to mention valve sizes. I'd like to see a long valve spring combo with a short base circle cam and some real lift. Especially knowing that limited lift and long durations don't make any more power the the same lift and shorter durations.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

How much room do we have to play with for lift? Would extra valve relief depth be needed on the piston?


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

after reading from page 1 to 11 I'll firstly say that this is amazing collaboration. Being an internet/magazine article mechanic with my poser PHD, I'll not try to add any technical information or data. 
I will say this though ... there are a ton of ideas running around that all sound like they'd work and add power. What seems to be the common theme is that no one has done all of them together... one guy have exploited hogging the frick out of the runners ended up with 195 whp ... another used lightweight everything and hit 195whp ... another used ITB's and ... you get the picture... 
At this point... I'd almost suggest that admin/tex mod's sticky this and lock it ... and make us go to another thread for all of the normal tex banter... and learn to simply be patient! 
So far there isn't much that I've read that wouldn't also benefit a FI setup... opening up the ports and lightening the valve train will all work to increase the VE of the engine... of course the cam selection will be larger than would be used in FI ... not to mention the compression ratio is quite simply going the wrong direction. 
As far as King's 5600 drop off goes, I'd suggest that there is alot more effecting the drop off of power then the spring rates et al ... for example ... through any given hole there is a finite amount of air that can be forced through it ... 
For the record where I think we'll see the power gained is as follows ... 
-port size/shape and equalizing the runners in and out
-combustion chamber size/shape
-engine's CR
-component weight / rotational weight
After seeing the plot of the air velocities ... it appears to me as though there should be serious thought put into maximizing the balance of air flow in all the runners... that chart makes it looks like a could of the cylinders are doing like 50% of the power production and another set 30%and the last pair making the final 20%... <shrug> 
Peace ... I'll be following this!


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*

Why would you want to lock the single most constructive innovative thread on this forum in the last 3 years? Seems that yes there is some banter back and forth but the ideas are nice to see and when(one of the key words here)they utilized plus when(another key word)someone has the money to bring these ideas to fruition that will be a great evolution to the 12v N/A VR6. Don't lock this thread it's way too important. "Don't be that guy" PC University.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote »_At this point... I'd almost suggest that admin/tex mod's sticky this and lock it ... and make us go to another thread for all of the normal tex banter... and learn to simply be patient! 


I don't understand the point of that. It be better to delete it altogether and have Bildon have a post when it's completed.


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (TKendall)*

I'm sue I suggested this a while back, since I have and e30 ///M3, but I believe it would help us achieve the mark we are looking for but as Bill mentioned it will not be cost effective... unless... someone somehow could source the e30 ///M3 t-bodies and modify them adding 2 more of course. Pure speculation, of the 4998 cars in the U.S. only about half are still around.
Motronic wouldn't be necessary to adapt to the VR6 MAF, Split Seconds and a few other cos. make a AFM-MAF converter for the ///M3... good idea just too costly a proposition... at which point most people would opt for forced induction. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ideas are flowing and that's a good thing, you READ 11 pages of unadulturated ideas... (that's the point) a means to an end. Patience and perseverance we will get there! Keep pluggin' guys.
Going to pick up another head off a 95 Passat w/56K on the clock! 


_Modified by Morrado at 4:55 AM 8-13-2006_


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_As far as King's 5600 drop off goes, I'd suggest that there is alot more effecting the drop off of power then the spring rates et al ... for example ... through any given hole there is a finite amount of air that can be forced through it ... 
For the record where I think we'll see the power gained is as follows ... 
-port size/shape and equalizing the runners in and out

I've taken that into consideration, and I stick to my theory because of these reasons:
~A stock/unported head shows this dropout at 5,600 RPM
~My ported head showsthis dropout at 5,600 RPM 
With larger cross-sectional area, my dropout should occur _later_ in the RPM, but it does not. I feel that it does so since I have the same weight of recipricating parts as the factory configuration.
I will however be performaing a test to verify this once and for all. With the combination of the lightest materials possible and the alteration of a few items, I will be testing my arrangement on a stock/unported head and installing my valvetrain with an approximate weight reduction down to 54% of the factory weight.
This project on my end alone will be expensive, and time consuming. I am planning on buying an entire GTI VR6 to be my test mule for this project, let alone the cost of valvetrain components.
This project on Bildon's end is at the very lest be very time consuming as he has his full-time business to attend to. This thread may vanish every now and then, but no one should panic or wonder if it has died. Bill and I have way too much passion to let our ideas die out. Even the world wasn't created in day...so I don't want to see "reviving" post like: "What happened to this thread?" or "TTT / BUMP" since they are not neccessary. If we were to give up on it, it will be annouced, but don't bet on that.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Keep Hope Alive http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by KingVR at 11:22 AM 8-13-2006_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

King, You really think that the drop off is significantly affected by the
valvetrain weight? I am trying to get my head around that one at the moment. Certainly the weight is a player, but in comparison to other engines how does the weight stack up? Could it be that there is something else driving this related to the intake dynamics that are beyond what can be achieved by porting alone? For instance what does the Schrick VGI dyno look like up high when coupled with a cam?
Or a 2.9l mani? I can't recall...


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jamesn67)*

Well, from all the dyno graphs that I see, the ones that do not have the 5600 dropout are usually ones that are not retaining stock springs. Most people with cams are required to change springs out for clearance reasons.
Not here to argue...being that I work for a valvetrain manufacturer, this is an area where I have unlimited resource for materials and design, so I'm the prime individual for taking this as my area of R&D. I'll be stunned if I don't get the results that I anticipate, but we'll never know with speculation, will we?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Nope, we won't. Testing is always best. I wasn't arguing just trying to understand the physics of the problem. 
Ok, so you had stock valve springs and the others did not. Interesting.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jamesn67)*

I ran stock valve springs because I ran out of money at the time and Schrick springs were appearing to have a lower seat pressure for identical installed height, so I passed on them...and to be honest with everyone, I knew nothing of valvetrain at the time, so I did what evryone did: Port the head, put bigger valves in it...and cams too if you can. There was another brand that had springs, but people started having a rash of springs break at the time, so I definitely stayed away from those. 
I did do the DSR 256 cams which did not require changing out the factory springs.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jamesn67)*

>> seems that no one has... run cams with big lift in these heads
Reading back to beginning of this thread you'll see that 308* CAT cams have been tried by TT on the most powerful VR6 I'm aware of. They were a step backward compared with the 288* that made the most power. Other factors could cause the 308* to make more power but currently nobody has put that combo together.
>>If you look at the lift that the sbc guys use ...all of our cams look very piddly, not to mention valve sizes. 
Look at their bore size. We dont run 6L motors.

Couple of updates:
We now have a forum of our own. I'll continue to post updates here and reply to general comments but the bulk of the technical discussion, testing and results will be posted here:
http://forums.bildon.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=16
We will have a running summary of the project on the project web page as well:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...h.cfm



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 2:42 PM 8-13-2006_


----------



## AzradoVr666 (Apr 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

what does lift tho have 2 do with displacment?isnt that stroke?i think we need 2 tap into the all motor jdm market and work off of there idea's....my 2 cents


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (AzradoVr666)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AzradoVr666* »_what does lift tho have 2 do with displacment?isnt that stroke?i think we need 2 tap into the all motor jdm market and work off of there idea's....my 2 cents 

Sigh... that's the thing. It's _unlike_ any motor. Show me a Japanese engine with intake runners that have to be 4 inches longer for half of the cylinders, has the combustion chanber in the piston and is 2V per cyl.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (AzradoVr666)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AzradoVr666* »_what does lift tho have 2 do with displacment?isnt that stroke?

Try to visualize the amount of chamber volume that has to be filled with a 6L V8 engine, and then compare that to the amount of volume needing to be filled by the VR6 engine. Much less lift/valve opening is required.
The largest cams that I have _heard of_ for a B-series engine, (not sure what a JDM spec engine has to do with anything), are maybe as large as 14mm which equals only .551" lift...and that's mild for a V8 lift spec.


----------



## StormDogg (May 26, 2003)

What about valve size vs valve lift? Both change the amount of air able to enter the combustion chamber, but do both have exactly the same effect on torque and HP?


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Has anyone ever tried having their heads Extrude-Honed? Might be something to consider to get the VR head really breathing and flowing alot more than stock. Porting & Polishing is fine and dandy, but, Im sure getting the honing done would probably help get this project one step closer to getting past that "250HP wall"


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> seems that no one has... run cams with big lift in these heads
Reading back to beginning of this thread you'll see that 308* CAT cams have been tried by TT on the most powerful VR6 I'm aware of. 
_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 2:42 PM 8-13-2006_

If those CAT cams are like the other ones available then it's no suprise that they didn't make additional power.








As for big lift, if you can stuff .500" why not .550"? Also, if the big lift was decoupled from the big duration a bit like a .500" lift but a [email protected]" spec was used would that have made more power?


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 8:03 AM 8-14-2006_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

anyone have some pictures of the inside of a VR6 manifold? 
I have all the exterior dimensions I need from my own manifold, but I also need to see the port layout inside.
I remember a thread where a guy was removing the spark plug holes, and it had some good pictures. Can't seem to find it anywhere.
Ben


----------



## VW_tayder (Oct 4, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (BennyB)*

i'm not sure if i'm reading correctly. but my stock head holds hp all the way to 7k. i'm just wondering why everyone elses falls off...
also has anyone ever thought of runner a step style header,(small tubbing to bigger) its a very common thing in the v8 world and they get much better #'s..


----------



## AzradoVr666 (Apr 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

i'm not saying are motor 's are designed the samewayasjap motors i'm saying we need 2start looking 2 see how they make power.....may not be the exact way we make power but its alot closer then a chevy 350 compared 2 a VR.....i'm saying look at most the honda all motor tube frame car's.....there making much more hp per hole.....i understand the difference in design but maybe then we should be aiming for there design's ....like king VR has been saying it may take a huge change head design but that's where the power is hideing


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (AzradoVr666)*

>> i'm not sure if i'm reading correctly. but my stock head holds hp all the way to 7k
Have you dyno'ed your engine?
The reason you are shifting at 7000 is that the power has dropped off.
If it was still making power that means it is still increasing the rate at which it's making torque (the def. of HP) and you would not shift until that torque level started to trail off. make sense? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Nobody is saying they can't run the car to the rev limiter in 'every' gear.
>> we need 2start looking 2 see how they make power....
IOW, "I have not read this thread carefully"















>> i understand the difference in design but maybe then we should be aiming for their design
No, you dont understand. This is a VR engine. Think about what you are saying....now think some more. Come on guys.. you WILL NOT PAY for $20,000 worth of engine development. I know that for a fact. We're going to work with the head and block Wolfsburg gave us.
If you want to totally redesign the engine then get a job with VW since they are doing that on a daily basis. The new VR6 now has a 10.6* cylinder angle and is still evolving.
This project is about REALISTIC mods to a very common and cheap engine. If you want to put a real 'V' engine in the car then the engine swap forums are a gret place to start.
Changed to 10.6* becuase it was bugging Scott










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 12:42 PM 8-14-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Just to clarify...the new 3.6L VR6 is 10.6 degree. I'm sometimes a nerd when it comes to slight inaccuracies becoming common knowledge. 
Once more for the reocrd:
The new 3.6L VR6 engine in the Passat and Toureg is:
~is 10.6 Degree Angle
~AND....NOT ALUMINUM...I've seen this one thrown around a lot also, as it is still cast iron. The W-range of engines are Aluminum blocks...I should know, as I have a W8 sitting in a crate!


----------



## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Here is a VERY old link to my old 3.1ish dyno, sorry it doesnt show TQ. I have it around the house somewhere,I'll keep an eye out for it. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=415426
Going from memory with the over sized valves, agressive porting, and VGI peak TQ was 4.2k(VGI) but the drop off was moved up to ~6k, HP was very flat,....... 

I have gone to the dark side and now run a "stock" engine with FI, but I have the power band you all dream about,....... 











_Modified by mikebobelak at 3:21 PM 8-14-2006_


----------



## VW_tayder (Oct 4, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> i'm not sure if i'm reading correctly. but my stock head holds hp all the way to 7k
Have you dyno'ed your engine?


yes here ya go.








yea i got some crazy a/f problems..i think i got a pin hole(s) in my intake that i made.


_Modified by VW_tayder at 3:48 PM 8-14-2006_


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (708VR6)*

Extrude- Honing after porting is another $800+ ... it may yield slightly better numbers but would you do it after paying $2-3k for a BVH w/ P&P?
Big cams can cause contact withe the guide and retainer = oil consumption and embarassing smoke screens even if you're fast... I was drinking 3 qts. a week off of a mistake European Motorworks did on my head due to negligent machinist measurements. (just my experience... and a few others that trusted them, thanks for nothing Jorge http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif)


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Morrado)*

That's a common problem with using the non-stock valve guides. You have to machine the lip off so that the seal sits down further. Most shops don't notice until they get one wrong.


----------



## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_That's a common problem with using the non-stock valve guides. You have to machine the lip off so that the seal sits down further. Most shops don't notice until they get one wrong.

Paul ,Billy & myself,.... were all victims of this, I remember chatting about this years ago...... T2/CCH even had to "redo" the guides on my BVH


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project*

I'm surprised to read about so many having fouled the valve guides. This is something your engine builder should really anticipate and modify accordingly when dealing with high lift cams. That and radiusing the lifter bore walls are 2 things you want to look for.


----------



## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I'm surprised to read about so many having fouled the valve guides. This is something your engine builder should really anticipate and modify accordingly when dealing with high lift cams. That and radiusing the lifter bore walls are 2 things you want to look for.









You can blame VW for most of the problem, their supplier retooled the "new" oem guides with the shoulder ~1.5-2mm too low on the guide.(And the builder for believing the specs to be correct )
This resulted in the stem seal sitting too high, and getting hit even with stock cams, with aftermarket cams the seal got smashed pretty bad. Luckly it didnt get into the metal and get solid.
I believe this has been corrected ,but Paul or Billy may have more info, as its been ~5+years....


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_anyone have some pictures of the inside of a VR6 manifold? 
I have all the exterior dimensions I need from my own manifold, but I also need to see the port layout inside.
I remember a thread where a guy was removing the spark plug holes, and it had some good pictures. Can't seem to find it anywhere.
Ben

Just opened up one for ya.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (mikebobelak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikebobelak* »_
I believe this has been corrected ,but Paul or Billy may have more info, as its been ~5+years....

All the guides that I've ever seen are like that, and need to be modded for aftermarket cams. Stockers clear fine from what I can tell except some at very high rpm with stock springs and possible valve bounce. 
The CCH problem was a different one in my case as my guides were modded but they still leaked eventhough the stem seal was intact. I think they used ones that were out of round or they went out of round when pressed in.


----------



## westcoastwhips (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Here's a link to the thermal coated VGI:
Drader used to own the car, then a buddy of mine bought it and took it further. To date I haven't ridden in a NA VR that pulled as hard as that one did. Too bad I didn't buy it...
If I ever get serious about an NA setup, I'll def. look into thermal managment. Not as a "cure-all", but as a way of getting just a few more.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=853207

_Modified by westcoastwhips at 11:31 PM 8-15-2006_


_Modified by westcoastwhips at 11:32 PM 8-15-2006_


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (westcoastwhips)*

Have you been able to do any sort of testing in regards to "squaring" the ports of the head and manifold?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (westcoastwhips)*

Great intake pics. 
>> Not as a "cure-all", but as a way of getting just a few more.
Absolutely. And we should stress "a few more" Not 40hp.
The new coatings and surface treatments are great advancements.
As is REM finishing. All these items will contribute to a modern engines total output. However if we focus on the basics, then these known "adders" will just be the icing on the cake.
Update: We really had planned to get some more dyno time on the stage 1 motor recently to verify some of our earlier #s and test a few changes. Unfortunately Murphy has been intervening. The wiring harness on the trailer decided to melt itself to the frame last week. So the test car just sits. Fortunately it's under warranty and it should be fixed next week. Will have to drive to the track this weekend with no trailer brakes http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Good thing is BeaveRun is only 15 min away.
Here is a photo collage of some of the parts we're playing with. Yes, those are Ti rods







No you can't have any... yet.








http://forums.bildon.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4











_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:24 AM 8-16-2006_


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

did you get my pm that I send you??


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Really great pics! Be nice to see some test numbers along with those but I can understand you need to be careful how much info you release at this point. 
Isn't the price of Ti really high these days? I should say even higher than usual.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jamesn67)*

While building my 4 cyl I looked into Ti tods - but they're rediculously expensive, like $900 / rod based on the exchange rate.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (WolfGTI)*

Thank you for taking the time to document all the small things and sharing it with people. Some really good weight info in there


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

>>Some really good weight info in there
Yah, sorry to dissapoint all those looking to a solid lifter setup for simply a weight savings. (once you ad the longer stem weight....) 
Perhaps somebody has developed a lighter lifter than Schrick, ST or Arrow? 
Does Ferrea perhaps make any 35mm bucket lifters for Subaru? Lighter than 36g ?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>>Some really good weight info in there
Yah, sorry to dissapoint all those looking to a solid lifter setup for simply a weight savings. (once you ad the longer stem weight....) 
Perhaps somebody has developed a lighter lifter than Schrick, ST or Arrow? 
Does Ferrea perhaps make any 35mm bucket lifters for Subaru? Lighter than 36g ?

Ferrea does not produce lifters at all besides the new Chevy SBC lifter that weighs only 59 grams...which is super lightweight for that type of lifter.
I however, do have access to a 35mm bucket lifter (solid) that weighs only 40.5 grams...I can't imagine one being capable of weighing any less than that, and that is with my own weight reduction applied to it. This is a Shim UNDER BUCKET style...I can't see a Shim OVER BUCKET lifter being anywhere near that lightweight. The other issue is the WRX will lose it's lash disc/pad if over-revved...that's why the STi has a Shim UNDER setup in it for the higher RPM. Mine will be DLC coated.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> I can't imagine one being capable of weighing any less than that
Take the piston out of an OEM light lifter and it weighs BARELY over 40g


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Doesn't CAT have lifters for the 12V VR? I swear that I saw you advertising their cams a few months ago.


----------



## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

*I watch this nice pic. and understand something, and no one here are taking about that and is the low speed Intake that VW make for the VR6.
The head are not going to have good speed because of the big plenum that the factory intake has.
Anyone got a plastic intake pic.*


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (hardcore racer)*

>> no one here are taking about that and is the low speed Intake that VW make for the VR6.
I think nobody is mentioning this becuase it's painfully obvious to us







You are correct. That will be a major challenge full the higher output motors. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Doesn't CAT have lifters for the 12V VR? 

If it's a SHIM OVER BUCKET, then it's gunna be heavy...and the pucks have a tendency to go flying when the speed gets too high. Worst part is when they get caught 1/2-way out of position, causing the valve to get pushed open a slight bit...and crash into the piston. hehe...no good!


_Modified by KingVR at 5:31 PM 8-16-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*

>> Doesn't CAT have lifters for the 12V VR? 
Yes. Both post type and pad type.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ArpyArpad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Not sure how many people realize this, but the head in this picture is not showing the INTAKE, but is showing the EXHAUST port. I just looked at my ported head and the intakes have a much tigher radius than the radius on the exhaust runner.











_Quote, originally posted by *ArpyArpad* »_can you get some pics?

Sure can...sorry it took so long. I ended up buying a perfectly good VR6 head (apparently a Corrado SLC, since it production datet is stamped "92") from a cylinder head rebuilder, simply to sacrifice it's life in the name of VR6 Science!! LOL
I knew I was on to something when I saw the original cutaway that didn't appear to be an intake runner, then the exhaust manifold studs confirmed that...so here we go:








Open up please!








...a little more!!








Whoa...that looks _nothing_ like an exhaust runner!!








Not even close!!








and finally:








My first thoughts are that the runner is not _nearly_ as crippled as I anticipated, and gets _much more_ of a straight shot than I expected.
Enjoy!!


_Modified by KingVR at 9:23 PM 8-16-2006_


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

What about the short intake ports?


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (darren p.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darren p.* »_What about the short intake ports?

Those aren't very much of a mystery since they are so short that you can get your finger through the entire length, and has a straight shot there.


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

someone be a doll and label the different spaces that're there? I think I can tell which are the water jackets ... but some of the other spaces are a little confusing... 
So if those other runners we saw much earlier in the thread were exhaust runners ... then it seems as thought there could be alot of exhaust flow to be gained ... simply by making that path straighter. 
What would be ultra nice is if we could see 4 pics ... 
1: long intake
2: short intake
3: long exhaust
4: short exhaust
I realize there's no mystry to the short runners, but for mental cognition I'd like to see it ... so that I'm not just begging for crap ... I have a 12v head that warped during over heating ... 
Thanks


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ Yes, those are Ti rods







No you can't have any... yet.










When I was looking to pick up a set of rods a few years back, jeremy from matrix was trying to sell me on a set of Arrow rods from across the pond. I believe they cost a piece about what I paid for my Manleys. What sort of weight are you seeing on the Ti vr6 rods? I'll try to dig up how much my Manley's weighed in at. I know they were a bit lighter in comparison to Pauter's VR rods, but not sure about either compared to stock http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*








Nice pics. 
*And let me say the runners are not bad, there look very straight to me, I think that the valves and the seats need a little extra attention.*


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (hardcore racer)*

>> the runners are not bad, there look very straight to me
Almost too straight. I never liked how far upstream the venturi was.
Who was running the saw? They missed your mark by a mile








That's OK you can get it dead center on the next one. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Who was running the saw? They missed your mark by a mile








That's OK you can get it dead center on the next one. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Our method of cutting was quite barbaric...and definitely comical!!
The saw that we use to cut our Ti, Aluminum, and Steel bar stock with had enough width to cut the head, but is on a hinge, so as it comes down, it did not have enough clearance...so we had to un-hinge it, and hold the entire saw/motor assembley like a pair of idiots for about 20 minutes to do the cut!! LOL I'll be going to a machine shop that I used to work at back when I was in college...as long as they haven't gotten rid of it, they have a verticle bandsaw that will be the _correct_ way of cutting these heads.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_someone be a doll and label the different spaces that're there? I think I can tell which are the water jackets ... but some of the other spaces are a little confusing... 
So if those other runners we saw much earlier in the thread were exhaust runners ... then it seems as thought there could be alot of exhaust flow to be gained ... simply by making that path straighter. 
What would be ultra nice is if we could see 4 pics ... 
1: long intake
2: short intake
3: long exhaust
4: short exhaust
I realize there's no mystry to the short runners, but for mental cognition I'd like to see it ... *so that I'm not just begging for crap ... I have a 12v head that warped during over heating ... *
Thanks

Fair trade...after seeing this, I've got more wild plans...bring on the donor heads, cause I could use more!







I'll try to label the guts of the head ASAP for everyone.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Just to point out to all, because my cut went straight down it does not follow the path of the port which is on a slight offset angle. The area that appears to be _squeezing down_ is simply an illusion because right before the runner drops into the bowl area, the head bolt shaft is forcing the runner to move out of the way.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_When I was looking to pick up a set of rods a few years back, jeremy from matrix was trying to sell me on a set of Arrow rods from across the pond. I believe they cost a piece about what I paid for my Manleys. What sort of weight are you seeing on the Ti vr6 rods? I'll try to dig up how much my Manley's weighed in at. I know they were a bit lighter in comparison to Pauter's VR rods, but not sure about either compared to stock http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I bought Arrow rods for my 2.0 ABA - out of the set of 4, 3 weighed 564 grams and the 4th weighed 563.5grams.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (WolfGTI)*

ok ill give credit where it is due. kingvr has done the most work thru this whole project so far! looks like i am in the same boat as you guys now with my 24v. flowing the head and intake manifold design are next on my list. you can only make so much power with bolt ons. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_ok ill give credit where it is due. kingvr has done the most work thru this whole project so far! looks like i am in the same boat as you guys now with my 24v. flowing the head and intake manifold design are next on my list. you can only make so much power with bolt ons. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









I don't think I can take too much credit...and just because you don't see Bildon posting tons of information up doesn't mean that he isn't working hard on this project. 
Let's look at it this way, Bildon not posting info could mean one of two things:
~A: He's not doing anything at all....
~B: He's doing the work that he said he'd be doing and checking it twice for verification so that he puts up correct and factual information, not guesswork or theory.

I happen to know for a fact that he's busy with answer "B" right now, as we spoke on the phone this morning for an extended conversation.
He's done most of this work previously, but never for himself. Most customers do not have either the time or money for him to spend doing documentation work when it won't matter for their project. This time around he is writing the book on this motor inside and out for the greater good of the VR6. Let's all be patient. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by KingVR at 3:33 PM 8-17-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_someone be a doll and label the different spaces that're there? I think I can tell which are the water jackets ... but some of the other spaces are a little confusing... 
So if those other runners we saw much earlier in the thread were exhaust runners ... then it seems as thought there could be alot of exhaust flow to be gained ... simply by making that path straighter. 
... so that I'm not just begging for crap ... I have a 12v head that warped during over heating ... 
Thanks

Here it is:








...where's that head?


----------



## ShaggyVR6 (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

I realy want to wish u guys luck cause if u can make a head that can alow enough flow to make power n/a. I'm sure that head would also help us FI guys.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ShaggyVR6)*

i dont know i would like to see pics of the others like somebody mentioned above.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fourthchirpin)*

Anybody have any info on the AES VR6 intake from the Eurovan?
Detailed photos, or better, an actual manifold?


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

i work for vw let me see what kinda info they give us on that and ill get back to you


----------



## FlyGTI84 (May 1, 2000)

Just a quick note, Colin at TT designed and built the 3.1L in Bernd's Rabbit, I did the 24v in the Corrado. I have been involved in that project to the extent to where I know what has been tested, what has worked and what hasn't. I did go through and freshen that engine up at one point (bearings, rings, etc.) but Colin did all of the original legwork on that engine.


----------



## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (FlyGTI84)*

welcome!!


----------



## VacantSkies88 (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

subscribing to this thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (VacantSkies88)*

ok well here may be some inspiration i found this clip of an all motor vr6 with ITB has to be over 250 wheel no more info than that 
it might be pure intertainment but take a look


----------



## ShaggyVR6 (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: (VWDave88)*

that anothey dowds car its 230whp i think with dta and a race gas tune


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re:*

We've started the port modeling on the intake runners and exh. ports in the heads.
http://forums.bildon.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4
























_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:06 PM 8-21-2006_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

^^^^




































Progress... it _is_ good!


----------



## Bjowett (Jul 6, 1999)

*Re: Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Bill, it's all been written before in this thread... a best talking out my butt guess is in chamber issues, valve shrouding, general chamber crossflow aerodynamics, or lack there of, and piston design are the culprits....good luck with the project,... I might buy one of these heads if you if make it work.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: Re: (Bjowett)*

well from what i can see choking is not the problem it is a fairly unrestricted flow unless the angles at the valves are sharp porting really isnt a significant gain but there has to be a way to equal the runner length with intake and exhast manifold designs that should help


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (VWDave88)*

>> well from what i can see choking is not the problem
Your eyes deceive you then.








>> it is a fairly unrestricted flow unless the angles at the valves are sharp 
These are exhaust ports. Look at the pics on our site and you'll see some restrictions.
>> porting really isnt a significant gain 
The porting we've done before although never as comprehensive as what is planned has proved very beneficial. It is VERY significant.
>> but there has to be a way to equal the runner length with intake and exhast manifold designs
Yes, there is. Exactly as VW did it from day 1.
Sorry to argue your points in public, but for the benefit of those trying to learn here I thought it important to address.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

One problem with the VR head is that its thin wall design and zig zag pattenr of ports makes it diffcult to get a nice smooth/straight port without making the wall to thin .

When i did my latest VR head for my VR-Turbo i made the ports tuned for 7000rpm (7600max rev)and i didnt have to go "bigger" aprox 1.5mm+ of the oem diam but it was more of a slight perfection of the ports and valve seats .
I went for the inner radius of the ports before the bowl and made a nice radius (mira) for the exhaust valve seat and area around the valve seat for improvling flow and the intake got an new nice radiused seat with minimum valve to seat interferance to accive maximum area .
Please keep us updated asap with teories about what could be done (safe) to this head

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (foffa2002)*

>> i made the ports tuned for 7000rpm
Can you describe your 'tuning' method?
Are you using a flow bench top measure improvements?


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hi

I got the Euro Mk4 with the intake compensation on the camshafts a.k.a 245/240 so i calculated the lenght and area i wanted for my custom intake and custom turbo manifold and with these cams and exhaust mani i went for a total lengt of ~35CM for intake port valveseat to plenum and 50CM runner pulse matched tubular manifold .
Funky head to flow test with 245/240 and 240/245 camshafts so i did a comparision dyno of the complete setup and the head work is minimal gain BUT the total setup and 8000rpm avaiable with springs,guides and light lifter + light retainers made a big difference with the harmony of rpm tuned intake and exhaust manifold .
= [email protected] same boost level 
redid the plenum three times becuse of the problem of trying to get even egt´s 


_Modified by foffa2002 at 4:53 PM 8-23-2006_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Re: (foffa2002)*

Back to page one.
Aside from boring out the ports (minimally) valve seats and some cleanup of excess casting flash, there's not much else to do, is there? 
Foffa, can you post some pics and specs for your manifold designs?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (VertigoGTI)*

>> Aside from boring out the ports (minimally) valve seats and some cleanup of excess casting flash, there's not much else to do, is there?
Porting is all about shaping the ports, not just "making them larger".
It's going to take many hours of flow bench work to find the shapres that will maximize flow while retaining or improving velocity into the cylinder.
Sometimes you reduce the size of the port area not increase it.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Aside from boring out the ports (minimally) valve seats and some cleanup of excess casting flash, there's not much else to do, is there?
Porting is all about shaping the ports, not just "making them larger".
It's going to take many hours of flow bench work to find the shapres that will maximize flow while retaining or improving velocity into the cylinder.
Sometimes you reduce the size of the port area not increase it.


A fact that is commonly overlooked. It's just not how much air gets in but the speed and flow field as well. Are you going to try using some
CFD on the ports or just the flow bench alone?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (jamesn67)*

We'll be doing some analysis via Fluent. That's why we're taking the port molds now, to get exact volumes and cross sectional areas. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:40 AM 8-27-2006_


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

u reduce it in some areas and port it in other areas. whats the max shape or general shape that will max air flow?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (subrosasix)*

V8 with individual throttles rule of thumb: port area at end of intake = valve area, area of valve throat = 85% of total valve area, carb throat = area of valve throat. Not sure how well this applies to EFI engines with single throttles and longer intake tracts.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Re: (need_a_VR6)*

The valve area is the "curtain area". 
This would be the circumference of the valve multiplied by the maximum lift of the cam. 
I the pipe drag from the ports will be minimized if the port area is larger than the valve curtain area. 
You Could calculate how much larger they would need to be by calculating a Reynold's number for the ports, and finding out how much dead area there is based on velocity and area. 
Since only the center of the flow is not effected by the shear from the walls, this involves a complex calculation with various velocities with respect to the radius of the port. 
I hope somebody understands this besides Need a VR6 who is clearly brilliant.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

Also your valves are angled in the GIF animation for CFD purposes. Why? they should be parallel to the cylinder bore. 
Do not overlook this fact! the cylinder walls greatly reduce flow capacity if the valve opens parallel to the bore, and the valve is way off center. This is what we have OEM
The reason most valves are at an angle in a GOOD cylinder head design is so the valve can get away from the cylinder wall. 
Food for thought.


----------



## VRClownCar (Apr 8, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_Also your valves are angled in the GIF animation for CFD purposes. Why? they should be parallel to the cylinder bore. 
Do not overlook this fact! the cylinder walls greatly reduce flow capacity if the valve opens parallel to the bore, and the valve is way off center. This is what we have OEM
The reason most valves are at an angle in a GOOD cylinder head design is so the valve can get away from the cylinder wall. 
Food for thought. 

this is true, but also keep in mind the angle at wich the cylender wall is to the head . . the head sits flat, but the cylender meet that at a 7.5* angle not sure if that will make much of a difference and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
this is a very intresting thread, I've been keeping a close eye on it. keep up the good work guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by VRClownCar at 10:03 AM 8-28-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

>> Also your valves are angled in the GIF animation for CFD purposes. Why? 
Because that image is of a 4 valve engine that has nothing to do with a VR6.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_I hope somebody understands this besides Need a VR6 who is clearly brilliant.









Not sure if that was a jab, was tounge in cheek, or a compliment. If it's the latter, it's definitely debatable.


----------



## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_










^^That is really neat. Is the color a function of particle velocity, i.e. blue is slow and red is fast? Also, can this model do two particles, i.e. air and gasoline? And what happens when the mixture is ignited - shouldn't the particle velocities increase at TDC?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (DHill)*

Yes, CFD programs can handle combustion. This movie looks to me more like a straight air flow analysis without the combustion. Generally blue is slow and red is fast but the user can make it what they want so without a scale you can't be sure. 
Has anyone been doing any fluid structure interaction analyses on
these? I know in the past they were most often de-coupled and
solved seperately, but for what you are trying to achieve it might
make sense to include the metal in your analyses.
I know that Mercedes does a lot of CFD work on their cars and quite a bit of it at my old company. I can ask around to see what type of in cylinder work they have been doing if you would like. Let me know.
Also, I believe one of my current co-workers worked at Ricardo in Detroit. He might have some CFD contacts as well. 


_Modified by jamesn67 at 10:36 PM 8-28-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Aussie R32*

I was sent this photo of a short runner manifold used by the R32 that used to race in the Aussie Pro car series. This was 2003-2004. I never knew what was under the hood of these cars. This manifold looks very well designed.
If anybody has ANY information about the engines in these cars or this manifold, please let us know. This looks like exactly what we had been drawing up over the last few weeks. A manifold with a good plenum volume that clears the radiator support and that has equal length runners.


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ A manifold with a good plenum volume that clears the radiator support and that has equal length runners.


When you say equal, do you mean that prior to entering the head, the runners are all the same length?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Zoso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zoso* »_When you say equal, do you mean that prior to entering the head, the runners are all the same length?

I'm pretty sure he's speaking of the _total runner length_ from plenum to backside of intake valve being equal.


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: Aussie R32 (KingVR)*

IIRC the aussie vw program got shelved after one of the drivers died when he piled the car into the wall. So sad.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Northren vr6)*

>> I'm pretty sure he's speaking of the total runner length 
of course I am.








>> IIRC the aussie vw program got shelved after one of the drivers died 
Stewart McColl died in 2003 as a result of a crash. 
Team mate Paul Stokell was still racing this car in 2004 although I'm not sure if it was still part of the "factory" effort.
I have some folks in Germany and New Zealand digging into the origins of this manifold and the engine builder now. Let's hope they come up with something. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

This manifold brings us to an interesting point...
There is talk that the MK4s manifolds are not as staggered on the inside as the MK3's are. To make things even more complicated, the MK4s rear cylinder bank cam profiles are different than the front bank to compensate for the difference in the intake manifold. 
Foffa can explain this better than I can, he has some real numbers to throw at it.


----------



## TimboVR6 (Sep 20, 2004)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I was sent this photo of a short runner manifold used by the R32 that used to race in the Aussie Pro car series. This was 2003-2004. I never knew what was under the hood of these cars. This manifold looks very well designed.
If anybody has ANY information about the engines in these cars or this manifold, please let us know. This looks like exactly what we had been drawing up over the last few weeks. A manifold with a good plenum volume that clears the radiator support and that has equal length runners.


The mechanic that used to work on those cars now runs his own workshop in sydney http://www.euroauto.com.au/ . He is on these forums as well under the name bug_racer . 
You might need to twist his arm a bit to get his secrets out of him tho!








I would say the racing program was shelved cos the MK4 was at the end of its life and the MK5 Golf was being released. Racing is all about selling cars isnt it?


_Modified by TimboVR6 at 8:15 PM 8-30-2006_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_. A manifold with a good plenum volume that clears the radiator support and that has equal length runners.


There's plenty of room if you run a Corrado rad in a Mk3, or aftermarket of similar size.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: Aussie R32 (need_a_VR6)*









notice the runners are actually of different length to compensate for the runner length to each cylinder. and the plenum itself is quite large. i wonder if its made of plastic or if they went to aluminum casting for this


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Aussie R32 (WannabeVWguy)*

is that piece a vw motorsports peice? just wondering.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (fourthchirpin)*

>> the MK4s rear cylinder bank cam profiles are different than the front bank to compensate for the difference in the intake manifold.
And yet I'm not aware of anyone making asymetric (f/r) cams in the aftermarket... however you now know one of the purposes of our VR6 cam gears. http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...VW034
>> The mechanic that used to work on those cars now runs his own workshop in sydney
Danke! Will be contacting him. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> is that piece a vw motorsports peice?
Well it appears that it actually is a VW part. I'm still digging into who exactly designed it but VW Motorsport tells me it wasn't them but that it was VW and a special deal for VW Group Austrailia (Aus. importer). 350hp from the3.2L 24v engine. If I can find out exactly who designed it I hope to pick their brain for data that might be relevant to this project.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:36 AM 8-30-2006_


----------



## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

That would definitely be on my list for my R32 if it became available actually would be next with cams and a software upgrade. Please tell me someone is going to get alot more info on this i know i'm in the 12valve forum but i want it for my R32. How come the guys on the R forum didn't find this and bring it up..Thanks James


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

5 companies in US freaked out when i posted the MK4 OEM Camshafts with the 245/240 grind and 10.7/10.2 lift








They told me that they were fake etc .

I custom made a 284/260 turbo cam with simaler "open area% diff" but the stupid company i used made one backwards








And blanks are expensive


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: Aussie R32 ([email protected])*

If needed I know some folks with stock mk4 cams out of the car and a shop with "cam doctor" (reads cams)


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 ([email protected])*

Are you talking about 245/240, 10.7/10.2 INTAKE/EXHAUST or Front to Rear cam banks?
Many our VR6 cams are assymetric wrt INT/EXH, but not front to rear camshafts. Which are you describing?
>> with simaler "open area% diff"
do you mean "smaller overlap" ?
We're doing a 12v norm aspriated motor here with this project.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Zoso)*

Zoso
Make a cam card and post it here .
Would be cool to see if my cams are just a "euro grind" 
Easy to measure the height diff


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bildon
The rear is basicly a 240/245 
The front cam got 245 on the intake .
The rear got it on the exhaust on the set i got at home


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 ([email protected])*

>> Make a cam card and post it here .
Dont post just any 24v data here. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif I'll remove it.
Do post any assymetric data that is relevant to 12v technology.
BTW, got more info on the Aussi manifolds. The engines in those cars were supposedly returned to VW after the cars were run in Oz. Got the name of one of the designers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif tracking them down now... 
While these are 24v manifolds, the info the designers have could be very informative. Could save us a LOT of expirimental time.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

Plenum comparision of lenght and design mk4 vs mk3 








Plenum runner lenght i went with optimized for ~7000rpm instead of the 5800ish that the oem VR6 mk3 is .









Cam card for euro Mk4 vr


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: Aussie R32 ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Zoso
Make a cam card and post it here .
Would be cool to see if my cams are just a "euro grind" 
Easy to measure the height diff 

My friends said that he can do it, but he's busy so it won't happen immediately. He has stock mk4 12v cams and I have stock mk3 12v cams, he'll put them all on the machine and get me results.
No 24 data here.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Zoso)*

I found the Aussy R32s. They are still 2 of them there. I also found out who designed the manifold. He is no longer with VW but I'm tracking down what info can be found out about them from the current owner. If we can get photos dimensions and info about the manifold I think that it may correlate to the stage 3 engine since the operating parameters will be similar.
I looked at the HGP stuff HPA sells but it doesnt appear to be as well suited to an NA setup. I dont liek the TB position or the plenum volume.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

Plenum looks tiny on the HGP manny, cocked TB looks like the driver's side cylinders wouldn't get airflow as easily as the rest.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Aussie R32 (VertigoGTI)*

Turbo intakes is not sensitve as N/A intakes are to shape and size cause its doing its thing under pressure and use pressure pipe size and stuff as a size factor .
And HGP made that manifold to "fit all" and not with a hp goal in mind cause hitting 0-125mph in 10seconds only take a big turbo and 22psi on a VR with good ecu tuning .

But bildon got to put some thought behind his stuff to get big N/A hp


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_BTW, got more info on the Aussi manifolds.

Bill , I will dig around, I think I have some pretty decent pictures of the Austrailian intake manifold.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (billyVR6)*

>> I will dig around, I think I have some pretty decent pictures 
I have the owner of one of the cars going to take photos and measurements. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
He tells me the manifolds were made of a very light alloy also. Very light


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*

The amount of work that has gone on here is amazing. I might get another VR if this project works out.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_The amount of work that has gone on here is amazing. I might get another VR if this project works out.

Fantastic, that's the kind of support we can use!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (VertigoGTI)*

"we" ?














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Hey anybody out there have a plastic 12v manifold they want to donate to "the cause" Either the entire thing or even just the short part?? 
I'm guessing that some of you may know some guys in the "bling" world that dont read the tech forums







and just had to have a high polished manifold...perhaps the plastic ones are laying around from these guys?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_"we" ?















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

It's easy to get caught up in this, seeing more people get interested doesn't help. 
I'll tone it down.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: Aussie R32 (VertigoGTI)*

thats horrable man i just File 13'nd one 2 days ago ill keep an eye out and look around hte body shop maybe that have one thats not destroyed


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I was sent this photo of a short runner manifold used by the R32 that used to race in the Aussie Pro car series. This was 2003-2004. I never knew what was under the hood of these cars. This manifold looks very well designed.
If anybody has ANY information about the engines in these cars or this manifold, please let us know. This looks like exactly what we had been drawing up over the last few weeks. A manifold with a good plenum volume that clears the radiator support and that has equal length runners.









Bill,
Please clarify... By design, if the internals of this manifold are equal lengths (based on the head), won't the longer v. shorter "tracks" interfere with the volume and speed that reaches the ports furthest from the throttle body?








I thought this is why VW placed the TB behind the tracks to give each port an equal "chance at" the intake charge. Which is why I just widened the design, removed the spark plug holes and restrictions inside.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Morrado)*

>> Bill, Please clarify...
I dont have any hard data on this VWR intake yet.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_
Bill,
Please clarify... By design, if the internals of this manifold are equal lengths (based on the head), won't the longer v. shorter "tracks" interfere with the volume and speed that reaches the ports furthest from the throttle body?








I thought this is why VW placed the TB behind the tracks to give each port an equal "chance at" the intake charge. Which is why I just widened the design, removed the spark plug holes and restrictions inside.


It's possible to make a decent assymmetrical manifold. Take a look at the 16V manifold and B16 manifolds, both have the TB passage before the runners but aren't symmetrical. They flow pretty good.
It's true that a completely even manifold with the TB inlet centered will feed the cylinders the correct amount of air easily. But that's all a part of the design, assymmetrical manifolds with some good design and engineering behind it can do nearly the same
A single intake manifold with one TB on a VR6 will never be truly symmetrical because of the ports. Closest way it could be done would be to make 2 small manifolds with their own TB and let the runners be the only variable.
Here's a crude MS Paint diagram, sort of a front view of what it'd look like.
(Sorry it's so fuzzy, I had to convert it from a bitmap to jpeg, made it a bit blurry)










_Modified by VertigoGTI at 2:30 AM 9-5-2006_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_
Bill,
Please clarify... By design, if the internals of this manifold are equal lengths (based on the head), won't the longer v. shorter "tracks" interfere with the volume and speed that reaches the ports furthest from the throttle body?










Perhaps the inside of the manifold has a taper to it?
Also if the internals of the manifold are equal length, then the effective intake runner length all the way to the intake valve(s) are un-equal front vs rear cylinder bank. Thats why the MkIV cams are mirror images of each other with respect to front cylinder bank vs rear cylinder bank. Look back to Foffa's posts. He's not talking about 24v. He's talking about the MkIV 12v which compensates for unequal effective length intake runners by using two different cam profiles front vs rear! 
I reckon VW probably did this to save money. A plastic manifold even with a shift-rod is cheaper than metal. And why bother with a manifold with built in runner length compensation, when you can get a similar effect by re-tuning the cams!



_Modified by phatvw at 1:15 AM 9-5-2006_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
A single intake manifold with one TB on a VR6 will never be truly symmetrical because of the ports. Closest way it could be done would be to make 2 small manifolds with their own TB and let the runners be the only variable.


Here is an idea:

I'm sure everyone will be quick to point out the flaws on this one... left-right banks instead of front-back, improper plenum size, improper volume per runner, no runner length compensation etc., etc. But it gives a nice visual to the dual throttle body concept that might spark some creative ideas here.


_Modified by phatvw at 1:28 AM 9-5-2006_


----------



## tallicagolf (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Aussie R32 (phatvw)*

Adding to my watched topics http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Aussie R32 (phatvw)*

here's an interesting thread from the FSAE list about intake design. 
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...15531

_Quote »_There are many opinions on volume and I have not seen a specific equation on this. I also doubt very highly that you will find one.
Your plenum is coupled to everything else in your intake and therefore affects throttle response, transient changes in air demand, and system acoustics, among others. You will not find a specific equation, only compromises.
What I was trying to get to was your definition of "uniform distribution of air." This will mean something completely different to an acoustics guy than a fluids guy. Basically, it is entirely possible to design an intake that when put on a flow bench shows perfectly even flow among all four cylinders, but when you run you engine you find that the inner 2 cylinders require more or less fuel than the outer 2 (or some other combo) because there can be different acoustic impedances at the runner/plenum junctions.
So, to cut to the chase, are you looking at your intake design from a fluid mechanics perspective or an acoustics perspective, or both? If your analysis is from an acoustics perspective, forget about the cone-shaped intake because it will cause you to lose all your acoustic benefits in the plenum due to the gradually weakening incoming wave. If you are looking at this from a fluids perspective, it should be pretty easy (if you are into CFD) to do some CFD analysis to design an even-flow intake.
Ideally, you would do an entire acoustical analysis/design, then CFD the entire system, build 2 or 3 prototypes, test, analysis, prototype, test, etc., etc. but no FSAE student has time for that in their schedule so I would suggest you pick an analysis method that you would like to learn about and beat the analysis and prototyping to death. If you intend to do an in-depth acoustical analysis, I would be glad to help you with what I remember. If you want to beat it to death with a CFD analysis, I would be useless.
I know this doesn't answer your initial questions but I feel you need to provide some analysis info to have your questions asked. Like you said, there are all kinds of opinions so eliminate the possibility of getting opinions and instead ask, "My analysis and/or testing shows this, I think ..., am I right? What does your analysis say?" I deal purely in prototypes in my current job and have found that no matter what you design, everyone from your boss to the janitor will give their opinion on how you should have done it. If you show those people your test results and ask how you can improve the data, that's when you get something valuable.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (BennyB)*

Ben, good stuff. I've been finding the FSAE forums quite interesting myself. For example this is a good paper on resonance testing.
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu...8.pdf
Resonance is going to play a key roll in the VR6 intake design.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: Aussie R32 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Here is an idea:

I'm sure everyone will be quick to point out the flaws on this one... left-right banks instead of front-back, improper plenum size, improper volume per runner, no runner length compensation etc., etc. But it gives a nice visual to the dual throttle body concept that might spark some creative ideas here.

_Modified by phatvw at 1:28 AM 9-5-2006_

I remember seeing that. You're right about the runner length, plenum, etc. However, he's boosted, so there is more room for fudging design. I wonder how it compares to the stock manny. It probably makes a ton of torque on the bottom end due to the long runners. I'm curious to know what the EGTs are for the rear bank cylinders compared to the front.


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (BennyB) (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Resonance is going to play a key roll in the VR6 intake design.

Good to hear. Is the exhaust manifold going to be getting the same treatment? Been reading a lot about resonance, Hemoltz(sp?) effect and wave dynamics in general. This truely is "_THE_ 12v VR6 Engineering Project". http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (darren p.)*

have you all addressed the ignition??
i see there is a MSD/Accel coil conversion thread here in the 12v forum. 
perhaps some HP can be made there??
i always thought that VW ignitions were solid though. 
anyone??


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (darren p.)*

Look at the pics on the Bildon site...seems they are already working on that.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Look at the pics on the Bildon site...seems they are already working on that.

Indeed they are working on an exhaust manifold:


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (jamesn67)*


_Quote »_have you all addressed the ignition??
i see there is a MSD/Accel coil conversion thread here in the 12v forum. 
perhaps some HP can be made there??
i always thought that VW ignitions were solid though. 
anyone??



I think that post was about getting around having to pay over $300 for a new coilpack and over $50 for wires. Basically, it was a conversion to make things easier on the pocketbook and more reliable, not a bad combo if you ask me. I've been following that one and I might do it.
Wasn't the header a borrowed or donated piece from someone in this post?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (BennyB) (phatvw)*

Looking at the runner lengths it's not much off from the Genie design that doesn't make any power either. Pretty sure that header is OLD as well, very familiar design.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (BennyB) (need_a_VR6)*

When im looking at that header im more like "why the hell is it not pulse matched ?"
So much work








VW VR-R series that is OEM on Vr5´s and slightly modded on Vr5 race car from the Euro race series are pulse matched .
Thats were i copied my design .
Picture this with flange down instead .
This is the way VW made the high HP Euro Vr5 models .


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (foffa2002)*

I think the key thing to look at in that Bildon picture is the overlapping
of different tube diameters. This is done so that the pressure wave
coming back towards the head will get trapped in the smaller diamter
tube. If they can get this right you can expect a big improvement.

Bill, I read that paper you posed. Very interesting. The only thing is it seems to discount the interaction of the other cylinders which would have some interaction. Might be a good way to get close though before you do any CFD work.


----------



## ShaggyVR6 (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: (BennyB) (jamesn67)*

someone was talking about ignition and i wanted to post what i learned when i went from oem to accel i noticed a big diff. but this is over 400whp stock coil only supports 400whp but i though i would give my 2 sents 








and it seems like u guys are moven away from itbs i thought itbs made the most hp for na cars



_Modified by ShaggyVR6 at 12:53 PM 9-6-2006_


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (BennyB) (ShaggyVR6)*

Stock MK4 coil support over 500Whp http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## AzradoVr666 (Apr 3, 2006)

*Re: (BennyB) (foffa2002)*

coils dont make power...they help make power...


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (AzradoVr666)*

I have a complete plastic MKIV intake that I replace with a Schimmel cast intake for my FI set-up. I would be willing to donate it to the cause for future considerations. Drop me a email at [email protected] and I can ship it out as early as tomorrow if need be.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Cams*

Here is the data I pulled from an OBDI coil pack head last night. #1 cylinder intake lobe. I haven't set the lobe angle to reference TDC yet, but what I find interesting is that it works out to about [email protected] If you measure for yourself you have to double it to get crank degrees, not cam degrees.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

Cool ! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
This showes that the Mk4 cam is slightly higher on intake .
Mk4~10,7 vs MK3 10,2


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Cams (foffa2002)*

the cam might be a bit worn too.. I has at least 190000km on it.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

10,2 is oem spec for MK3 so its correct


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Project Status*

update:
Sorry there has not been much in the way of updates here.
We've been very busy lately with some time consuming Pro Race projects. BTW, You VW Racing fans will be happy with the # of professionally racing VWs next year! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Anyway we have been working behind the scenes. Ben's modelling is progressing well and we've seen the first end to end simulations of a stock engine. Results are encouraging.
We have completed physical models of an entire intake tract, both OE and ported versions, and will be sending them off to be scanned. The resultant 3D CAD files will be used in a number of ways including CFD analysis and getting quotes for 5 axis CNC porting.
We had the Stg 1 motor back on the dyno last weekend an noticed that we were going a little rich on the AFR so that needs to be addressed. An adjustable FPR will be installed and testing can continue there.
The Stage 2 base motor is slowly, VERY slowly







coming together. The flow bench and our recent upsurge in racing customer business is pushing this project to the side more than expected. But hang in there...we never said real progress was going to be fast


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Project Status (Bildon Motorsport)*

Perhaps slightly off topic but not really.
Without major modifications such as porting, what does bildon think is the optimum configuration of "bolt on" parts, that in conjunction net the most NA hp?
(Cams, hg, intake, exhaust, springs, valves, retainers, pistons, rods, ignition etc.)
I would imagine these parts will still remain the best choices after all headwork.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Project Status (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_Perhaps slightly off topic but not really.
Without major modifications such as porting, what does bildon think is the optimum configuration of "bolt on" parts, that in conjunction net the most NA hp?
(Cams, hg, intake, exhaust, springs, valves, retainers, pistons, rods, ignition etc.)
I would imagine these parts will still remain the best choices after all headwork.

Their soon to be released stage-1 kit of course


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Project Status (phatvw)*

>> Their soon to be released stage-1 kit of course 
heh! You want a job?








Eventually we'll compile the data and you will have the answer. Things just have to slow down here a bit for us to get caught up on the project.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Project Status (Vr6Fidelity)*

I'll have an answer for a lot of the bolt on stuff pre-headwork and then a cumulative one afterward. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Project Status (need_a_VR6)*

Third page bump...


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

I finished the measurements, so now I have intake and exhaust and they're sync'ed to TDC.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

Nice !
10.2 / 10.2 
What "running" duration did that mk3 cam have ?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Cams (foffa2002)*

[email protected] for both intake and exhaust
it doesn't seem right though because as soon as I plug those numbers into my simulation the power drops way down to 140hp and kills all torque above 4000. 


_Modified by BennyB at 10:04 AM 9-11-2006_


----------



## RideVR6 (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

Man I love this thread. I gotta buy a VR6 again.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

check vs my MK4 cam card on page 14 (i think)


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Cams ([email protected])*

yeah, thats the strange part.. those cams are up around 210, which seems to be normal. I'm looking into how the cam profile interacts with the bucket, because I know that changes the lift curve.


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: Cams (BennyB)*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_head_porting


----------



## looking4vr (Jan 31, 2006)

*Re: Cams (subrosasix)*

bump for all my MKiV friends that keep telling me I need to go FI to be fast and for me still laughing because before any major motor work I'm at least keeping up! I'm salivating at the thought of some real hp gains on this motor....$$ burning a hole in my pocket....N/A is best http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
please Bildon, make me power


















_Modified by looking4vr at 8:12 PM 9-15-2006_


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

page 4 bump


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (BennyB) (JETTSET)*

MK4 CAST aluminum intake manifold

A friend called me about a check engine light on his car .
And i can say that i was suprised to se a VARIO alu-cast intakemanifold .
This is the second PRE series intake manifold ive seen .
1:R32 
2assat 

Check out front plenum design.
On regular MK4 its not "coned" shape AND this plenum actually ad 1/4th of an inch to each runner .
1st runner if you look at the front plenum is shorter then the last one .
Pretty cool


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB) (foffa2002)*

Nice find foffa. Is that from a Passat?
And try clicking this link if the pic doesn't appear: http://i9.tinypic.com/4i3d84j.jpg


_Modified by phatvw at 1:01 AM 9-22-2006_


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (BennyB) (phatvw)*

Jepp
Passat
I wonder how many of these there are out on the market .

I bet that they distrubute flow equall AND its twin plenum vario desig for sick low TQ and a nice high rpm mode reward after 4300rpm


----------



## PreviaSC (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Was just looking at an old issue of VWTRENDS that i have. I will provide the specific Issue number and Volume later. Anyways... I there's an article of a New Beetle built by HPA. IT is powered by a 3.1 VR6 which is putting out 285hp and 252ft-lbs torque.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (PreviaSC)*

>> 3.1 VR6 which is putting out 285hp
Is it a 12v ?
*edit: It was a supercharged 12v. * http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:20 AM 9-22-2006_


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

highly doubt it's a 12v


----------



## ShaggyVR6 (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (subrosasix)*

any updates?


----------



## Oh_My_VR6 (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
*edit: It was a supercharged 12v. * http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:20 AM 9-22-2006_

Hahaa...


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Aussie R32 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_



This car is local to me, and a couple of years ago the guy built this setup before the turbo. It ran slower than a stock VR6 at the track and I see it as more of a proof of concept than anything else.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: Aussie R32 (dubsrphat)*

well i just saw something interesting on horse power tv on spike
they were doing some engine dyno work and they tested an idea on a v8 that might play a part or not i don t know but he it is
they dyno'd an engine and changed the cam only with the same lift and duration spec cam but changed the firing order it gained 33 hp with the same spec cam due to gains in positive airflow into the cyl it might be worth investigating to see if there is room for advancment of this type in a hard to breath VR6
they might have more info on the website


----------



## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: Aussie R32 (VWDave88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWDave88* »_well i just saw something interesting on horse power tv on spike
they were doing some engine dyno work and they tested an idea on a v8 that might play a part or not i don t know but he it is
they dyno'd an engine and changed the cam only with the same lift and duration spec cam but changed the firing order it gained 33 hp with the same spec cam due to gains in positive airflow into the cyl it might be worth investigating to see if there is room for advancment of this type in a hard to breath VR6
they might have more info on the website 

yes yes i've heard of this, but this is only for a particular V8. there are a couple magazine articles about this change of firing order. i'm pretty sure the vr6 already has the best firing order though.


----------



## Kaaarl (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Just a thought... What about sucking the valves into the head , then radius up to the new seat. Kinda like creating a mini bathtub combustion chamber. 
The radius should also help flow in and out.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Kaaarl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kaaarl* »_Just a thought... What about sucking the valves into the head , then radius up to the new seat. Kinda like creating a mini bathtub combustion chamber. 
The radius should also help flow in and out. 

That would effectively "shroud" the valves. A sure method to restrict the flow.
A 'radius' actually hinders flow in most cases since air flows and follows a straight path best. As for valves, a Ferrea valve will only have a radius on the margin (where the combustion chamber face meets the outer diameter/sides of the valve) when it is the exhaust valve. This is to eliminate any potential 'hot-spots' in the combustion chamber area. Sharp edges will retain heat, so with a radius'd curve at the meeting point, potential for pre-ignition is avoided further.


_Modified by KingVR at 11:47 PM 9-25-2006_


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Enough Ferrera nutswinging! 
And air loves radii, and you have no idea what your talking about.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*

Air doesn't like any change in direction radiused or not. You could have flow seperation on a radius too. All depends on the size and shape of the change. Please try to avoid sweeping statements as
a lot of folks will take these as gospel.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jamesn67)*

Radiusing the exhaust valve is valve design 101.
The Schrick, Si and SuperTech here also employ a radius on the chamber side. I'm not aware of any racing valve that doesn't use this. Having said that the Ferrea are very good product. No complaints.
Posted a while back... see the comment...
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_....html


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Why is it call _radiusing_?
Is the process the same as rounding off the edges into a horn-like shape to match the theoretical acoustic impedance between two chambers? acoustics/fluid dynamics 101


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (phatvw)*

We're talking about exhaust flow from the cylinder into the exhuast port. What chambers were you thinking of?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_We're talking about exhaust flow from the cylinder into the exhuast port. What chambers were you thinking of?

Sorry, I'm using "chamber" as a generic term meaning a space with a specific volume and dimension.
The cylinder and exhaust port are two chambers. To maximize airflow aka acoustic power, you would get rid of the abrupt threshold and match the impedance via a horn-shape.
I'm just curious where the term radiusing came from? Its probably a perfectly cromulent word in automotive circles.


_Modified by phatvw at 11:28 AM 9-25-2006_


----------



## FLATBLACKMK2 (Oct 10, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*

anymore geek knowledge..............???


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Its probably a perfectly *cromulent * word in automotive circles.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ArpyArpad)*

Knowing the PVNRT of the air, and the velocity, some quick Reynold's numbers, one can calculate what sort of angular acceleration the air can achieve without de-laminating from the surface. 
Not that the air on the surface is even moving, which it isn't. You would need to exceed the sonic velocity for the air touching the runners to move. 
The reason there is no radiused recess in the head is that the proper radius is too large to fit in the available space _without reducing compression_, and the valve stem does an excellent job of guiding the air. The air is under immense pressure is going out the exhaust, and because of that, it is highly motivated.
The intake air is drawn in by vacuum from the expanding cylinder volume, the magnitude of this vacuum is not even comparable with the post burn cylinder pressures. This is why most of the careful radius work is generally done on the intake side. The exhaust side just needs to flow as much as possible, you do not need to carefully treat the air like you do on the intake side.


----------



## Kaaarl (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Vr6Fidelity)*

I had the thought from a book have read on engines and tuning. There wasn't anything about the vr6 but they touched on the heron head, which is similar.



















_Modified by Kaaarl at 11:15 PM 9-25-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Kaaarl)*

Interesting. What book is this from? It's not 100% relative given the VR6 employs more sophisticated injection/ignition and the 15* angle allows for a "dynamic pent head" chamber with squish area... but some interesting ideas to look into never the less. 
I'm not sure when this was written but he fails to mention the advantages to the heron head design. Sure it's not optimal but it seems the authors opinion may be focused on the Ford design he mentions. Afterall, there were F1 engines in the mid 60s winning championships with Heron heads. Several effective motorcyle engines have also used them. And as you all know, the venerable ur-GTI was a Heron head design.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:04 AM 9-26-2006_


----------



## Kaaarl (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

It's from "Four Stroke Performance Tuning" by A. Graham Bell
There is a newer third edition out now. 










_Modified by Kaaarl at 9:10 AM 9-26-2006_


----------



## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Kaaarl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kaaarl* »_It's from "Four Stroke Performance Tuning" by A. Graham Bell
There is a newer third edition out now. 









_Modified by Kaaarl at 9:10 AM 9-26-2006_

All those Graham Bell books are full of great info.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey quick update/apologies .. we're working very hard on putting together a multicar VW Golf GTI deal for Grand Am Cup this has been talking up all the free time that we planned to spend on the VR6 engine program. We're now weeks behind where we expected to be and honestly that time is still slipping. We are still moving forward. I have somebody now building the 2nd test car that will be running the Stage 2 engines. (We've decided that using a "dummy" car on the chassis dyno will be the best way to generate data that will correlate with the other tests we've done and the final tuning we'll be doing with end user/customer cars)
Stay tuned, thanks for your patience, and we'll have updates again in about 2 weeks time.


----------



## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

if someone was to build a short runner intake manifold or even a normal manifold with equal length runners how long would each runner need to be?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

They dont "need" to be any predetermined length. The length would be determined by a number of factors most of which have nothing to do with maximizing power. 'Packaging" is the biggest problem, TB & injector location, intake tubing, rad support clearance etc. Once you had those issues resolved then you need to look at what you want out of the engine.
Normally you want some length to get a decent torque curve however with the long internal port runners in the VR6 you have length, unfortunately you also have the short runners to deal with. That's the VR6 intake predicament.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

2min job to calculate lenght .
3rd pulse calculation to get the stuff to fit under the hood 
1:Were do you want TQ peak 
2:Use port length vs area vs cam dur and lift (open area) and you will get the "correct" lenght .

For TQ peak @ 5200-5600 i usually go with a total lenght of 34-36cm calculated from rear cyl bank and ~oem port size.
But just like bildon said its the easy bit ......the hard part is to fit the stuff under the hood .


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (foffa2002)*

i just saw these pictures posted in the mk3 forum and immediately thought applying something like this might help, especially for mr.king's ventures in valvetrain weight reduction.
















i'm still in school for mechanical engineering, and this thread is getting me real excited to finish my degree and work on some fun stuff.


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_i just saw these pictures posted in the mk3 forum and immediately thought applying something like this might help, especially for mr.king's ventures in valvetrain weight reduction.


I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in these pictures?
-m


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (maxslug)*

Cam center is hollow. Sure it's lightweight but there's not a lot of inertia on the center of something that's spinning. Big gains are the linear pieces, valves, springs, retainers, lifters, etc.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

by my calculations, if the radius of the annular region is half the radius of the camshaft, the mass decreases by 25% and the moment of inertia decreases by 6%. every little bit helps.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_ every little bit helps.

yup!


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_by my calculations, if the radius of the annular region is half the radius of the camshaft, the mass decreases by 25% and the moment of inertia decreases by 6%. every little bit helps.

Are you considering the lobes too, or just an annular shaft vs. solid?
Is ABT the only one making the hollow cams? If so, the ~small gain (if any) from going annular is definitely not going to offset the cost of buying a set.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*

no, not considering lobes. 
i have a feeling bildon will be making custom cams, at least for their higher/est stage(s), so making them hollow doesn't seem like it would be a big deal.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_by my calculations, if the radius of the annular region is half the radius of the camshaft, the mass decreases by 25% and the moment of inertia decreases by 6%. every little bit helps.

That only assumes that the OD doesn't change which if you look at the ABT camshafts, is not true. Looking at more like 3% from an eyeball wag.
Making fresh billets is pretty costly, there's only two supplies for them in the world as whatever tooling that ABT used is proprietary as far as I can tell.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_no, not considering lobes. 


I have a feeling that the lobes play a significant role in the inertia of the camshaft.
Think about it this way, for a shaft, I = (Pi*d^4)/4 , which you obviously already knew. Anytime that distance is to the fourth power like that, it pretty much makes anything close to the axis of rotation negligible, like your calculation showed. The lobes, which are ~3 times further (for simplicity) from the center of the cam than the end of the hollow section will have 3^4=81 times the 'I' value.
Stupid tangent, but I finally get to use some of the stuff from Solid Mechanics, Dynamics and Machine Design


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*

yeah. i guess it is pretty small after all. oh well.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

There are quite a few supercars that run rifled cams. I wouldn't dismiss them just because they aren't a run of the mill item. You just have to be a little more careful when you're installing/removing them.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

this is true the 30 valve v6 and the 20valve 4cy both have hollow cams and will break if you dont remove and install in sequence i have seen it


----------



## mk2alex (Dec 26, 2005)

*Re: (VWDave88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWDave88* »_this is true the 30 valve v6 and the 20valve 4cy both have hollow cams and will break if you dont remove and install in sequence i have seen it

I know for a fact 20v have holow cam as I'm staring at mines right now. If vw went ahead and did it I'd think it can be beneficial but right now whatever bottleneck is keeping the power down doesn't seem to be the cams...

suscribed to the thread


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_i just saw these pictures posted in the mk3 forum and immediately thought applying something like this might help, especially for mr.king's ventures in valvetrain weight reduction. 

As far as "weight reduction" is concerned, it's most heavily important when it is "reciprocating mass" that we should be concerned with...at least I am. The camshaft is simply rotating, as opposed to an object that is starting and stopping such as the valves, springs, retainers, cam followers, keepers. I've put together a combination that will reduce the 12v's reciprocating valvetrain mass down to 54% of the factory weight, which considering that when you weigh in that amount of mass, it woudl be removing about 2.5 pounds of weight that has to start and stop.
The reason for ABT and VW making the camshafts hollow are not entirely to reduce mass. The 24 valve VR6 also employs this. I have the Self Study Program book (course # 892103) for the 2001 Eurovan which was the first VW to receive the 24v VR6. On page 7, it reads:
_*The manufacturing technique used for the camshafts is completely new, since the camshafts are hollow with seperate cam lobes. These are press fitted on the cam during manufacture using hydrolic pressure (hydroforming).
The advantages of this camshaft manufacturing technique are:
~ Reduction of weight for the hoolow shaft
~ Use of material with resistance to bending for the shaft
~ Use of material with specific friction characteristics for the cams"*_
The part that interest me the most is the bennefit of the resistance to bending. A solid shaft will bend much more easily than a hollow shaft. Once this is understood, it is resonable to imagine that while the camshaft is driven at only one end of the shaft, each lobe towards the other end of the shaft is providing a loaded resistance followed by an unloaded resistance at a rate of 50 times per second at a measley 6000 RPM. Picture what is occuring at the last few lobes with all of the on/off twisting forces that the shaft incurrs. To be off by only a degree or two could have a substantial impact on the valve timing events between different cylinders.


_Modified by KingVR at 10:30 AM 10-1-2006_


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Do not confuse torsion with bending. 
Your camshaft is not twisting itself out of timing, certainly not by "several degrees". Even this level of stress in a Fluctuating normal stress situation would quickly fatigue the camshaft. It would certainly break in hours in a reversed repeated stress scenario. 
Also id love to see this %50 less reciprocating mass setup. Since you are not a mechanical engineer. 
Same material, half area: Breakage
Twice as strong as stock material? does it have the same density? i don't think so. 
Why don't you just make ceramic rods? there very light and strong. I hear they LOVE tension applications! 
I still firmly believe that large gains are only available in combustion chamber design, and free flowing runners. 
Obviously a %50 lighter reciprocating assembly would yield extra horsepower, and greater angular acceleration capabilities. It would be sweet for sure, i just don't think its possible to produce the setup and make it reliable, the parts would be so over-stressed breakage would be a weekly concern!


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

I'd love to see you build something substantial...let alone provide some actual insight to benefit this thread as opposed to slamming another's postings. I speak of possible alternatives that DO EXIST and have been possible for quite some time. It doesn't suprize me that you think my goals are impossible...engineers usually think within the box and are quick to spout off why something will NOT work. Perhaps I'm not using the same material, and perhaps my materials of choice are not produced in the standard method.
I've measured the weights of the components that drop the weight to 54%, so when you start manufacturing components that are on the Ferrea level, I'll start paying more attention to what is and is not possible when you say so.
...so, you're stating the VW technical information and the engineers that produced are making up the theoretical "bending" as being impossible?







Not to mention other peices of literature are making that up as well?


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

My post was not meant to attack you. 
I'd just like to see ANYTHING about this lightweight valve-train of yours. One single drawing, a single calculation, a single material selection, anything. 
What are these alternatives that "DO EXIST", show them. where are the pictures?
Not all engineers think in the box. I will also point out that you are not an engineer, and some of your statements are hilarious to a formally trained and experienced part designer. 
This was the MOST hilarious to me:
_so when you start manufacturing components that are on the Ferrea level, I'll start paying more attention to what is and is not possible when you say so._
You make valve-train components. And more accurately, where you work. You did not design them. I'm sure your CNC machine spits them out by the dozens. There VALVES, even sodium filled there simple components. 
Where I work i am involved in Jet engine designs, Turbochargers, air cycle machines, Ram-jet engines, Turbines, And all variety of turbo-machinery. 
Does this make me better than you? NO. 
What it does do is provide me with some first-hand experience of part design for extreme temperature and load environments. 
Im sure you could make the exhaust valves from INCONEL 718, or another variant but is it worth it financially? Is it necessary? Are the valves light enough? Id be much more impressed to see ground YSZ coated valves that just do not get hot. 
Also try to make one single post that does not mention your employer, and stands on its own technical merit. I have never mentioned where i work and i never will. Work should never come up on the Internet. 
If i was really interested in debating engineering with you, id just call ferrera, im sure you would answer.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

lol look guys when it comes down to it i am a master tech with VW been with them a long time and it comes down to what you work with and your experiences i cant tell you what the valve train weight is on a 12v i can tell you how to diag it and repair it so im not one to judge this pissing match all im saying is there are alot of people involved and interested in the outcome of this thread and positive reinforcement is needed if you guys want to fight and argue the different materials that could be used and why and throw out job titles and places of business keep it in IM im sure everyone would appreciate it 
but if you want to add ideas without kicking the other while he is down go for it


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (VWDave88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWDave88* »_lol look guys when it comes down to it i am a master tech with VW been with them a long time and it comes down to what you work with and your experiences i cant tell you what the valve train weight is on a 12v i can tell you how to diag it and repair it so im not one to judge this pissing match all im saying is there are alot of people involved and interested in the outcome of this thread and positive reinforcement is needed if you guys want to fight and argue the different materials that could be used and why and throw out job titles and places of business keep it in IM im sure everyone would appreciate it 
but if you want to add ideas without kicking the other while he is down go for it

since you are a master tech do you have any insight or any biases of any kind on this build? just like words of wisdom or etc..


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

when it comes down to track proven reace deisgn i have no experience with it i learn a lot from you all on this thread but if you need any technical info i can usually track it down i have only owned a vr since march so my playing with it is still new all my cars have been 1.8l 2.0l and 30 valve v6


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

My post was not meant to attack you. 
*You seem to have a habit of posting directly after I do from what I see, and cleverly attempt to debunk most anything that I state...yeah, it is a slam when you do things like that.*
I'd just like to see ANYTHING about this lightweight valve-train of yours. One single drawing, a single calculation, a single material selection, anything. 
What are these alternatives that "DO EXIST", show them. where are the pictures?
*Let's start with instead of a factory sized 7mm valve stem, I can pick one of my blanks with a smaller stem. Staying with a stainless will only drop a max of about 25% of total weight. To double that amount, I have titanium available in those stem sizes. My titanium retainer weighs 3 times less than the factory steel unit. Keepers for a smaller stem valve will of course weigh less than one for a larger 7mm peice, almsot negligable though. Another major area of weight reduction would be the factory cam follower/bucket/lifter. It weighs in at roughly 70 grams. There is a lightweight version of this at 48 grams, but being hydrolic I've gathered (from high-end engine builders that I speak with) that a hydrolic lifter, due to it's inherrent lash-control design, cannot perform this control beyond speeds of 7k RPM. Because of this I've sourced a solid cam follower that weighs in at 40.5 grams.
Before you tell me that a Ti valve cannot be run on the street, it can. Although a Ti valve is definitely expensive to begin with, it also requires custom valve guides and valve seats using non-traditional materials and costly machining labor, etc...but it can be done. I wouldn't recommend this combination for anything outside of the most extreme engine build. I am planning to assemble this combination for my own curiosity to see how the engine responds, specifically how far the torque band can be extended. We shall see.*
Not all engineers think in the box. I will also point out that you are not an engineer, and some of your statements are hilarious to a formally trained and experienced part designer. 
While I am not an engineer, I am however a Master Automotive Mechanic as well as a Master Engine Machinist. Although I do not think nor speak like an engineer, I do posses the necessary understanding of the principles behind how parts are manufactured, designed, and what they are capable of.
This was the MOST hilarious to me:
_so when you start manufacturing components that are on the Ferrea level, I'll start paying more attention to what is and is not possible when you say so._
You make valve-train components. And more accurately, where you work. You did not design them. I'm sure your CNC machine spits them out by the dozens. There VALVES, even sodium filled there simple components. 
Where I work i am involved in Jet engine designs, Turbochargers, air cycle machines, Ram-jet engines, Turbines, And all variety of turbo-machinery. 
Does this make me better than you? NO. 
What it does do is provide me with some first-hand experience of part design for extreme temperature and load environments. 
Im sure you could make the exhaust valves from INCONEL 718, or another variant but is it worth it financially? Is it necessary? Are the valves light enough? Id be much more impressed to see ground YSZ coated valves that just do not get hot. 
Also try to make one single post that does not mention your employer, and stands on its own technical merit. I have never mentioned where i work and i never will. Work should never come up on the Internet. 
If i was really interested in debating engineering with you, id just call ferrera, im sure you would answer. 
*Besides being a nay-sayer, I'd love to be shown where you have truly attempted to contribute in a positive manner to this thread. And have I really said nothing that stood on it own technical merrit?*


----------



## darisd (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: (Pf3il)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pf3il* »_by my calculations, if the radius of the annular region is half the radius of the camshaft, the mass decreases by 25% and the moment of inertia decreases by 6%. every little bit helps.

Ahem.
I'd be curious how the valvetrain moment compares to the total moment of the engine. So %6 of what total percentage is my question... ? I could make a gross oversimplification and estimate that the moment of the valvetrain relative to the pistontrain (is that a word? maybe cranktrain?) is proportional to their masses. So for example, if the cranktrain has a mass five times that of the valvetrain, then that reduction would be 6% of 16.6% of the total moment, which would be almost exactly one perceont. So maybe three HP.
That is such a rough estimate it is not funny, but might be pretty accurate.
Also, what about electomechanical valves? That would decrease the valvetrain moment to zero. Using the previous mathematical method of comparing lost moment to resultant horsepower gains, that would mean maybe 40 HP gained.
Ok, I take it back that estimate was pretty farking funny







i wonder what my physics professor would think about that one...


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Not all engineers think in the box nor are all technicians not capable of engineering.
Just avoid making statements that are going to be taken as fact.
*The advantages of this camshaft manufacturing technique are:
~ Reduction of weight for the hoolow shaft
~ Use of material with resistance to bending for the shaft
~ Use of material with specific friction characteristics for the cams"*
A hollow shaft will _not_ bend less than a solid shaft. The statement VW was making was that they wanted a hollow shaft and chose a material that would allow them to do this and minimize the loss of section area. As I know you are aware there is always a compromise somewhere in the design to make it feasable.
Post up some results when you get you build done and that should satisfy everyone.










_Modified by jamesn67 at 7:47 AM 10-2-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

The term _bending_ that VW I think that we can all agree should be referring to a torsional/twisting motion.
And yes, a hollow shaft will most definitely resist this better than a solid shaft. Haven't you ever seen Mr. Wizard demonstrate that one?


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I'm tired of reading about hypothetical valvetrains. Can we talk about fluids and thermo?


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
And yes, a hollow shaft will most definitely resist this better than a solid shaft. Haven't you ever seen Mr. Wizard demonstrate that one?

Joke of the day!


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_I'm tired of reading about hypothetical valvetrains. Can we talk about fluids and thermo?

You want to talk hypothetical about fluids and thermo, but not about functional and legitimate items that I am in the middle of producing? Yet at the same time me and VW appear to be the only ones that understand the function of a hollow shaft?








Man I love this place!


----------



## apex (Mar 30, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*

OK before this goes any farther, how about we stop the theorizing and we also stop the pissing matches? 
Go off and build an engine or flow a head or lighten a component and then test it and come back and tell us how it changed.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (apex)*

I'll take some of the blame for this topic getting so diluted. 
We have not been producing the data we promised, fast enough.
In fact much of what we have done has not been posted. I hope to change this in the next few weeks. Until then... let's not turn this into a typical Vortex crap thread...which is where I see it going.
So how many of you guys out there that are now chimeing in from the technical side are fluent with Fluent?







Or are *good* with FEA or CFD tools? Let's put your brains to good use. Haven't you always wanted to be a race engine designer?








IM me if you can take an IGES file and help run some analysis on an intake or head/valve mod idea. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I'll take some of the blame for this topic getting so diluted. 
We have not been producing the data we promised, fast enough.

Who cares about anyone else, you're busy building cars and racing them... let them wait.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

yea dont rush any stage in this.
KingVR you dont have to convince anybody, just focus on you and believe me once u produce results everybody will be on your nuts sooner or later.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

i wish i knew fluent.







i've used flowlab before


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

You need to be specific and say Torsional bending.
I don't want to argue either of our technical qualifications.
Just want to make sure that the concepts that are discussed
in here are clear when possible so that the folks who don't
understand them don't go away with any il-conceived notions.
I am happy that you and the other folks working this are in here trying to push the limits. Have at it. 

And Bill I have extensive FEA experience and would be happy to lend a
hand. I'll IM you.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_You want to talk hypothetical about fluids and thermo, but not about functional and legitimate items that I am in the middle of producing? Yet at the same time me and VW appear to be the only ones that understand the function of a hollow shaft?








Man I love this place!









I'm not here to talk hypothetical. I want to see some hard numbers from a flow bench, a thermo scan of an engine to determine hot spots, things that will help figure out where the weak links are in the VR6. 
Your hollow cam would have to be of equal weight to the solid one to increase stiffness.


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
I'm not here to talk hypothetical. I want to see some hard numbers from a flow bench, a thermo scan of an engine to determine hot spots, things that will help figure out where the weak links are in the VR6. 
*Your hollow cam would have to be of equal weight to the solid one to increase stiffness.*

Not necessarily, but the diameter of the hollow cam would need to be greater. (Think RWD Cars, driveshaft, its large and hollow because thats just as strong but lighter and probably cheaper than a solid equivalent)


_Modified by PhReE at 4:34 PM 10-2-2006_


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_Your hollow cam would have to be of equal weight to the solid one to increase stiffness.

Where is the evidence to support your statement?
http://www.sharpemixers.com/Br...ft%22
...there's mine


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I think he might be meaning you'd need to increase the diameter -- and thus the weight. 
But making it hollow vs solid will make it more stiff, yes, but also more brittle, heh, remember the snapped cams? Those were solid, but to be fair I think they were from a bad batch, and I have never heard of a 24v cam snapping either.


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (PhReE)*

seems like increasing the diameter would increase the rotational weight ... as mathed out in that equation someone posted above... and given more strength vs less static weight vs more rotational weight ... I'll stick with less strength, more static weight and less rotational weight...


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_I think he might be meaning you'd need to increase the diameter -- and thus the weight. 

Well, I guess I was mislead by that word he used..."_equal_" I think it was?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_seems like increasing the diameter would increase the rotational weight ... as mathed out in that equation someone posted above... and given more strength vs less static weight vs more rotational weight ... I'll stick with less strength, more static weight and less rotational weight... 

First...even though this is sliding way off course, I'd like to appologise for that, but it's all decent information in the end, and hopefully we're all learning something along the lines to an extent.
The Mk4 (at least some that I have seen, use a solid shaft on one side of the car, and a hollow on the other. PASSENGER was the solid, with DRIVER being trhe hollow, IIRC. I never learned why they would do that on only one side. The diameter really isn't that much larger, and was not a "milled" material. Very thin as if it were stamped steel. In this case, I couldn't see it being functional as a camshaft of course, but definitely did not have a higher rotational weight to it.
As a camshaft only rotates at half the engine speed, and the crank only sees half the force that it takes to drive the cams due to the "gearing" involved. Cam bearing diameters most likely play a larger roll in the "friction/drag" aspect of things. Besides, "objects in motion tend to stay in motion".


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

It helps eliminate TQ steer. The shafts are different lengths but have the same torsional rigidity. (I am not sure if they weigh the same or not tho)


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Where is the evidence to support your statement?
http://www.sharpemixers.com/Br...ft%22
...there's mine

As usual, you are not reading things as they apply to the specific problem that is being discussed. We are talking about camshafts. As such, your evidence is comparing two shafts of unequal diameter. The solid shaft is 5" and the hollow shaft is 6.625", how this relates to a cams I am not sure as the shaft diameter on both a solid and hollow cams are the same due to bearing size.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_As usual, you are not reading things as they apply to the specific problem that is being discussed. We are talking about camshafts. As such, your evidence is comparing two shafts of unequal diameter. The solid shaft is 5" and the hollow shaft is 6.625", how this relates to a cams I am not sure as the shaft diameter on both a solid and hollow cams are the same due to bearing size. 

No, I simply did a Google search and found that to point out that your statement was not correct. Sure, it wouldn't be practical to enlarge the cam diameter, which would increase the bearing surface area. And while yes, you would have to increase the diameter, it would NOT need to weigh the same as the solid camshaft like you stated. What did I miss?


_Modified by KingVR at 9:53 AM 10-3-2006_


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

The point of the example you posted is mass distribution. Both shafts have the same cross sectional area, and therefore weight. The hollow shaft is much larger, which allows it to have a HIGHER polar moment of inertia. This makes the hollow shaft More rigid, due to its higher polar moment of inertia BUT requires 4/3 more energy to spin.
Again, higher Ip = more strength = harder to spin. 
Hollow camshafts may be "trick" but are NOT the area to be looking at for serious power gains. 
I think we have fully explored camshaft manufacturing, and should focus the efforts on lobe shape and duration, THE PARTS OF THE CAM THAT MATTER.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

>> and should focus the efforts on lobe shape and duration
Remember, confucious say: There is no such thing as "cam design"
There is only valve lift profile design. You may make the mistake of thinking they are one in the same since we are used to working with cam on bucket designs at relatively low RPMs but they are not.
So the next step is not to determine the lobe profile, it is to determine the VALVE lift, duration and physical profile design. From this the cam profile can be designed depending on what type of valvetrain you will be using. Scott's (KingVR) ultralight solid lifter & Ti valvetrain will need a different cam to get the same valve lift profile than will somebody else's hydraulic lifter w/ stainless valve setup.
Designing the cam before you understand the engine's specific lift profile requirements is getting things a bit backwards.
And before ALL of this can be done we have to see what can be done wrt to porting these heads to the max. I should have had a head all sliced up by now but I was hoping Scott would have his head fully sliced up and documented for us already since he beat me to getting the first one cut.







Can we see more detailed pics of that head Scott? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Ahhh, Bill...I wasn't aware that you needed me to slice up more of that head since you found a clever method of casting the internals of the runners. (I found that stuff, but haven't tried it out yet)
I now have access to the CORRECT type of bandsaw that I can make better cuts with and get photos of each individual runner. I'll try for that this weekend.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Unless somebody wants to loan me a sonic wall thickness tester that will reach all the way into the long ports, I'll need to see where the thin spots are by cutting. We've never pushed the envelope on porting before to the point we needed to worry about it.
We will now.








So, yah if you have the time (something we dont right at the moment) then have at it! Concentrate on the area that look close to the water/oil jackets obviously. And if you can do it in nice parallel cuts we coudl probably even tehn scann the slices into a 3D file so that we have the ultimate VR6 3D CAD file...which could greatly accelerate the move to CAM when we're at that point. 
Anybody here good with any of the 3D machining software like FeatureCAM??
Anybody here have a time machine??


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

WAY off topic... in the 2nd harry potter movie, herm<can't remember how to spell it> had that charm that she spun... it'd take her backwards in time dependant on how many turns she gave it ... your shop needs one of those for your mechanics ... imagine the work you could get done!


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Unless somebody wants to loan me a sonic wall thickness tester that will reach all the way into the long ports, I'll need to see where the thin spots are by cutting. We've never pushed the envelope on porting before to the point we needed to worry about it.
We will now.








: 

the qoute that made me resubscribe to this thread. lol. reshapeing it is what I think is more needed, porting it until it can't be ported is not the best idea power wise but i think it's key to know so that u can do that then add the material where u WANT it to improve the flow of the naturally choking head.


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## rypivolks (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

ive been following this thred for awhile and i dont know why i said anything sooner but i work at a shop that cast's aluminum molds. so if you need any thing to be casted (lets say a proto type head) let me know and i can set you up with the owner and we also have 2 cnc's, 2 vf4's, 1 vf8, and 4 mills. we use soildworks 3D 2006 and ashlar-vellum graphite v7sp1. just let me know if i can be of help. 
thanks Ryan


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (rypivolks)*

Ryan, 
IM you have....


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

>> reshapeing it is what I think is more needed
This has been the primary goal of this project from day 1.
It's why we rebuilt our flow bench. It's why we invested in software to do an analysis of WTH is going on inside those long narrow runners. It's why we started off asking every VW tuner in the country what they did to the heads when they TRIED to make power. (crickets from most)








There are no inherent problems with VR6 block, pistons, rods, cranks, cooling, oiling, exhaust, etc etc ... it's the intakes.
I'm surprised nobody has brought this up for an in depth analysis.
Firing order WRT port length. 
The long runners ALL fire first. 1,3,5 then all the short runners. Why? Why were they not staggered? I'm throwing that out there... I dont have good answer as honestly we've never dug that deep into this question. 
On another note, anyone have a trashed 24v head?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_The long runners ALL fire first. 1,3,5 then all the short runners. Why? Why were they not staggered? I'm throwing that out there... I dont have good answer as honestly we've never dug that deep into this question. 

My theory was always packaging, use the shorty exhaust manifolds and designing them for independance. Otherwise you'd have adjacent exhaust ports (or at least ones close in a 3-1 collector) and you'd have to have much longer runners that just wouldn't fit in the prototype days.


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

discussion has said that the exhaust manifolds are an unfortunate result of time management and laziness... 
"how should we handle the exhausts sir?"
"uhm... let's just take those three into one collector and the others into another collector and then 2 to 1 them into the cat. That'll be easy"
However, if they were to actually collect the exhaust based on the firing order and actually made a header of sorts, the benefit would have been huge... how does the firing order/long runner situation effect things? 
what would the ideal exhaust collection look like, based on runner length and firing order? I suppose that if you were to shorten the runners to the rear bank, and lengthen runners to the front bank so that the length of the path from exhaust valve to collector would be equal, then *[question]would a header configuration be solely dependant on the firing order, since the exhaust path would be equal? [/question]* 
and on the other side of things [intake] ... is the intake manifold designed to equalize the runner lengths of the front and rear banks? If not, or hypothetically speaking, *[question]Would there be any benefit to fabricating an intake "header" such that the intake runners would be equal length from plenum to intake valve?[/question]*

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
The long runners ALL fire first. 1,3,5 then all the short runners. Why? Why were they not staggered? I'm throwing that out there... I dont have good answer as honestly we've never dug that deep into this question. 

there's an assumed suggestion towards a benefit from changing the firing order ... wouldn't this require new completely custom cams to facilitate the valves opening at the right time for the new combusion sequence? seems that would be prohibitively expensive... <shrug>
_edit_: Ps. anyone ever seen a head that went ahead and collected flow from different cylinders inside of the head, before the manifolds? Would there be, could there be any benefit?

_Modified by ExtremeVR6 at 12:10 AM 10-4-2006_

_Modified by ExtremeVR6 at 12:11 AM 10-4-2006_

_Modified by ExtremeVR6 at 12:12 AM 10-4-2006_
english/grammer sucks ... being from KY doesn't help 


_Modified by ExtremeVR6 at 12:13 AM 10-4-2006_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_I suppose that if you were to shorten the runners to the rear bank, and lengthen runners to the front bank so that the length of the path from exhaust valve to collector would be equal, then *[question]would a header configuration be solely dependant on the firing order, since the exhaust path would be equal? [/question]* 

That was done and it made very little or no power, you can see pics further back in the thread. 


_Quote »_and on the other side of things [intake] ... is the intake manifold designed to equalize the runner lengths of the front and rear banks? If not, or hypothetically speaking, *[question]Would there be any benefit to fabricating an intake "header" such that the intake runners would be equal length from plenum to intake valve?[/question]*


The stock intake manifold has correction for that, take a look at one with the plenum cut off and it's apparent. The only 220+whp 2.8L that I have ever seen was with the Grant ITB's but that setup also uses equal overall length runners by staggering the ITB trumpets long/short. Coincidence? Probably not as a great many imports can make the same or better whp numbers on a plenum setup then ITBs, but the only big power stock block VR6 was using a non stock intake manifold setup with equal overall runners. Theory: stock manifold is restrictive but tuned length, short runners flow well but are unbalanced and don't make best power. Design a short runner with equal total length runners and you have a winner.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*

If you look at the VR6 firing order, I don't see how it could be tuned much better.
1 -5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
The 2 exhaust manifolds are setup:
1 2 3 and 4 5 6 
so...each manifold experiences every OTHER exhaust event, while never having two events in a row, or a gap of more than 1 pulse event. 
As for the intake manifold with one plenum like the factory design, it doesn't seem to have too much of an issue with this. However, if you were to make a dual-plenum system, then you would have an issue. The long-runner plenum would have 3 events occur, then the short-runner plenum would have it's 3 intake events run. Would there be sufficient time to refill a plenum while the other plenum is being emptied?
It is possible to change the firing order by means of a new camshaft set, and trading injector pins for the appropriate cylinder trade. If one were to perform a search for what firing order an inline-six engine would have, you would find that the VR6 is more closely based on an inline-six engine than a true V-six layout. The VR6 uses a firing order that has been around for about 100 years, as the only inline-six engine that I could find with a different firing order was some early 1900's Ford Model (don't remember which) with an inline-six that ran 1 - 2 - 3 - 6 - 5 - 4 but perhaps there was an issue with the balance. I have yet to find anyone that can solidly answer "What would happen if I changed the firing order to 1 - 2 - 3 - 6 - 5 - 4?" since in a dual plenum manifold (short-runner type) for the VR6 this would eliminate the issue of "3-events ON, 3-events OFF" that would occur.








I'm willing to experiment with that idea...perhaps I'll do 2 sets of cams when I have mine ground from billets. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

>> The stock intake manifold has correction for that
Only the older alum manifolds have the length correction.
But the question I posed was about firing order and not about manifold runners. And the port length I spoke of was not the intake runner length.
>> there's an assumed suggestion towards a benefit from changing the firing order 
No there is only a question. Why did VW design the engine to fire the front bank and then the rear bank. No assumptions. 
>> seems that would be prohibitively expensive... 
True. This is not an in block cam V8. From a practicality standpoint, It's a rather pointless avenue to go up for this project.
>> anyone ever seen a head that went ahead and collected flow from different cylinders inside of the head, before the manifolds? 
Your talking about the exh side? As in siamesed ports? 
>> perhaps I'll do 2 sets of cams when I have mine ground from billets
You'll need more than a new grind. You'll need new billets. The cams are not symetrical. I think we should just leave this one on the table for now as was suggested. This would be a good experiment for an engine simulation via software. Far less expensive.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:38 AM 10-4-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Anyone have a 24v head they can examine for us?
Better yet, a loaner or a trashed head that we could have here would be best. We can of course return any loaners.
No we're not going to build a 24v engine. We want to examine the 24v on the flow bench and learn what it's able to do vs the 12v.
However if you do not want to part with your head, if you can measure the intake port volume that would be helpful.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

>> No there is only a question. Why did VW design the engine to fire the front bank and then the rear bank. No assumptions. 
*VW did not inherrently design the firing order that it uses. It has been widely used for a very long time on inline-6 engines. The firing cycle of 3-short followed by 3-long seems to be the most well-tuned arrangement for having a single intake manifold and a 6-2-1 exhaust manifold.
Switching cylinder 2 with cylinder 5 would give you what you seem to be looking for:
1 - 2 - 3 - 6 - 5 - 4 which will alternate short and long, but with the factory setup, the intake is now attempting to inhale it's air charge right next to a cylinder that just did so. It looks to me that a different firing order that what the VR6 ended up with would be more untuned and would require a more complex intake and exhaust design to take advantage of an alternative firiing sequence.*
>> perhaps I'll do 2 sets of cams when I have mine ground from billets
You'll need more than a new grind. You'll need new billets. The cams are not symetrical. I think we should just leave this one on the table for now as was suggested. This would be a good experiment for an engine simulation via software. Far less expensive.
*I've got a cam grinder right down the street that i know personally...I'll wait to see what your software version produces, but it shouldn't cost me too much if I attempt that.*


_Modified by KingVR at 11:23 AM 10-4-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Anyone have a 24v head they can examine for us?
Better yet, a loaner or a trashed head that we could have here would be best. We can of course return any loaners.
No we're not going to build a 24v engine. We want to examine the 24v on the flow bench and learn what it's able to do vs the 12v.
However if you do not want to part with your head, if you can measure the intake port volume that would be helpful.









I could make the latex molds from the 24v head that we have here and send you the molds. I am suggesting this because I doubt that they would be willing to lend the head out.


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
No there is only a question. Why did VW design the engine to fire the front bank and then the rear bank. No assumptions.

From what KingVr is saying it ending up purely by coincidence <sorta>. The normal inline six firing order is what the vr6 has been designed with. That being the case, when they shortened the block to fit it transversely, and the cylinders had to be offset (Vee) 15 degrees, the firing order naturally ended up front/back. 

_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_vr6* »_The stock intake manifold has correction for that, take a look at one with the plenum cut off and it's apparent.

In relation to the runner length... from the pics I've seen and the depth of the long intake runners vs the depth of the short intake runners, it's hard for me to imagine how the Mk3 manifold makes up for that much difference in the "plenum runners". Maybe my imagination isn't strong enough... If the rear bank intake path is infact longer (longer runners yeilding better torque reponse) *[question]would that not mean that you would have more torque created during the second half of the firing order... and from the backside of the block?[/question]*

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsports* »_
>> anyone ever seen a head that went ahead and collected flow from different cylinders inside of the head, before the manifolds? 
Your talking about the exh side? As in siamesed ports?

Yeah, the exhaust side... If that's what they are called, sure... 
*KingVR* : If I understand you correctly, with the combination of the firing order and the collector config is pretty much yeilding an ideal setup as it is? If so, I quess the designed is proven when aftermarket performance part vendors try to improve on the header design and yeild VERY little benefit, except in highly modified engines. 
I suppose the key question (aside from the previous suggestion to table the idea due to expense and practicality) would be, *[question]would there be any benefit to trying to utilize a different firing order that would have front/back ... long/short intake runners ... firing alternately?[/question]*. Which with using a 153624, and if the runners are different lengths front vs back... would balance the better torque response (from longer runners) throughout the cycle. 
Ultimately, since horsepower is a function of torque, wouldn't figuring out how to create torque levels and at rpms that we want? 

_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_dual-plenum system


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_vr6* »_Design a short runner with equal total length runners and you have a winner. 

I think space would be a huge problem for a dual plenums, but what if you simply had runners going from the "bottom" of the plenum (I'm thinking 3" diameter piping) to the front bank, and runners going from the side to the rear bank. Seems to me like the runner length issue would be accounted for, and would present short runner intake with equal length runners.
Glynn

_edited for grammatical and contextual errors_
_Modified by ExtremeVR6 at 2:22 PM 10-4-2006_


_Modified by ExtremeVR6 at 2:23 PM 10-4-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_I think space would be a huge problem for a dual plenums, but what if you simply had runners going from the "bottom" of the plenum (I'm thinking 3" diameter piping) to the front bank, and runners going from the side to the rear bank. Seems to me like the runner length issue would be accounted for, and would present short runner intake with equal length runners.

Here is the answer to that:










_Modified by KingVR at 3:57 PM 10-4-2006_


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

why dont u take a vr6 manifold and make it shorter right after runner end, this would solve length issue with having a short runner.


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

heh there it is ... and is exactly what I was describing... apparently VW recieved my email ... :nut:


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

are you talking about basically deleting the lower intake manifold?


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

>> I'll wait to see what your software version produces
We're not going to invest the time in this. I was just saying it would make more sense to do it that way.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_heh there it is ... and is exactly what I was describing... apparently VW recieved my email ... :nut:









Welcome to page 14...that's where I stole that image from! LOL


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> I'll wait to see what your software version produces
We're not going to invest the time in this. I was just saying it would make more sense to do it that way.

Then I guess I may take a gander at it then!


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

the solution to the entire problem would be fixed with a newly designed cylinder head. ports for the intake that all are equal and run in the center of the head. intake enters through these.
exhaust ports come out the front and back. obviously this setup would work best on a longitudal engine. take a look at most V6's...300zx and 350z are great examples.
but of course, designing and casting a new cylinder head is too expensive so it won't be done...but it would work!


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (JRaptor2000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor2000* »_the solution to the entire problem would be fixed with a newly designed cylinder head. ports for the intake that all are equal and run in the center of the head. intake enters through these.
exhaust ports come out the front and back. obviously this setup would work best on a longitudal engine. take a look at most V6's...300zx and 350z are great examples.
but of course, designing and casting a new cylinder head is too expensive so it won't be done...but it would work!

Absolutely brilliant. Ive had this idea for quite some time and i was going to make it a personal project to fully create the head in inventor. I just dont have any of the co-ordinates of the cylinder locations , liquid passages, and head bolts. Anyone know this? Wouldnt take me long to model out a whole new head from scratch. 
IMHO, the best possible head design would have a cylindrical plenum dead smack in the center of the head with short nearly vertical intake runners. All equal length on both sides. 3 Short exhaust ports and a header on each side. 
Of course in my head this was always FI so i wanted a short runner, perhaps for NA applications You would need a long runner setup like perhaps the SRT-8 intake setup, or the F.A.S.T. manifold for LS-X motors.


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## BORA RKT (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

Good read lots of great info can't wait to see how this turns out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AzradoVr666 (Apr 3, 2006)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

i'd love 2 see a aftermarket head....


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## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I still contend that we treat this like a Lamborghini... have two intake manifolds, two t-bodies in synch *make* space for the length and volumetric variance and voila! Otherwise ITB's seems like the only feasible solution for this discussion.
On the quesion of exhaust headers, is it feasible to have the front bank and rear bank firing orders mated? Or will the lengths be a tuning factor (cams etc.)?


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_I still contend that we treat this like a Lamborghini... have two intake manifolds, two t-bodies in synch *make* space for the length and volumetric variance and voila! 

Observe, my crappy MS Paint two manifold, two TB intake. Taken from pg 14. You'd need a larger hood though.


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## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Packaging was mentioned earlier and is normally the cause of compromising intake manifold design, clearly this was the case for the VW engineers. I'm not sure why it hasn't been mentioned or why nobody sees it as clearly as I do but I think the best intake manifold design for a 12v involves lowering the radiator to overcome packaging constraints. with the radiator lowered, there would be enough room for a properly tuned short runner manifold. The plenum would be butting up against the grille and the runners would all be equal length (short intake ports would compensate by using longer runners protruding into the plenum). Throttle body could be on either side of the plenum or if anyone has seen the IPS short ram intake manifold for the K-series the throttle body could be in the middle of the plenum with the filter sticking out of the grille. Forget individual throttle bodies, a properly designed short runner manifold would give you a much more useable power curve.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (darren p.)*

I built a short runner (for a Corrado no less) and packaging was a severe limitation to design/size of the plenum.
I'm going to make another short runner eventually and when I do, I will relocate the alternator to the AC compressor spot (which I deleted). This will free up plenty of space, especially for people wanting to run a passenger side throttle body. At least that way, more space is available to build down, instead of up into the hood.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*

what is soo hard about applying this to the 12v? if short runner is the route then replicate that problem solved :


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (AzradoVr666)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AzradoVr666* »_i'd love 2 see a aftermarket head....

This is totally and utterly naive, but if you were to go to all the effort of making an aftermarket head, why not go to a 4-valve head? Is there something about the bottom-end that would prevent the use of a 4-valve head?
-m


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_This is totally and utterly naive, but if you were to go to all the effort of making an aftermarket head, why not go to a 4-valve head? Is there something about the bottom-end that would prevent the use of a 4-valve head?
-m

Because this is the 12V forum.















That "R32" intake looks like something that someone needs to try and get more info on, looks like an excelent compensation for the long/short runners.




_Modified by djsheijkdfj at 7:18 PM 10-5-2006_


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_....if you were to go to all the effort of making an aftermarket head, why not go to a 4-valve head? Is there something about the bottom-end that would prevent the use of a 4-valve head?
-m

Yes, there is. Forgetting that this being the 12v forum, you would run into issues that the designers of the 24v head ran into. Things such as the ability to get the ports as large and square as they needed to. The arrangement of this is what dictated the need to move the head bolt locations around to accomodate those changes. This is the primary reason that the 24v head cannot be bolted onto the 12v block. Besides, the engineering fees to produce an aftermarket casting are into the six-figure area before the first casting has been produced. 
If someone truly wanted to switch to a 24v head, you'd be best off by buying an entire long block from a salvage yard. That motor has been out for a few years now, so it shouldn't really be too costly.
It's mind boggling that they ever produced the 24v IMHO, since after staring at the complexity of the valvetrain arrangement for a few minutes makes you dizzy.


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Besides, the engineering fees to produce an aftermarket casting are into the six-figure area before the first casting has been produced. 


Not nearly that much. I would say you could have a from scratch design machined for 4K tops. Stereo-lithography, to investment casting, then machining the near net shape casting. I you had access to a 5-Axis CNC machine you could make it from a huge billet of aluminum for cheap as well, but the aluminum is expensive. It would probably be better to cast it to near net shape, and work the valve-train areas on the CNC. You are essentially charged for the amount of time it takes to machine it, and the fixturing and cutting tools.


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*

How do you plan on machining the water jackets within the head?
I asked a customer of ours who is in the middle of producing their own LS1 cylinder head design. Fairly simple head by comparison, and they have their own CNC machining centers as well. They haven't even made the first casting and they are up to $62,000 with engineering fees.


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Perhaps you should look up words you dont recognize like "stereo lithography"


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## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_Perhaps you should look up words you dont recognize like "stereo lithography" 

Perhaps you should stop trying to make yourself look all high and mightly and think about my question.
"_How do you plan on machining the water jackets within the head?_"
You're not the only person who understands what a 3D Printer is and how it works, and perhaps that suprises you, or you would've realized that my question was geared towards your suggestion of using a 5-axis center and a billet block of aluminum.


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## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I would tend to think that the cost of designing and protyping a new cylinder head would be well beyond what Bildon has planned and could hope to re-coup in sales.


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

seems like all this is heading way of the original idea. Any progress made with the stage 2 yet?


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
"_How do you plan on machining the water jackets within the head?_"

two piece cylinder head? lol, it really would need a true casting. but you must admit that if the head was designed this way from the start we wouldnt have these flow issues.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (JRaptor2000)*

i think bildon wants to IMPROVE the head not REMAKE a whole new head. This is an engineering project not a project to REMAKE the whole motor. If it was possible to remake a head for the 12v block one has to really think of a way to get 24v 's to fit IMO.


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## JRaptor2000 (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_i think bildon wants to IMPROVE the head not REMAKE a whole new head. This is an engineering project not a project to REMAKE the whole motor. If it was possible to remake a head for the 12v block one has to really think of a way to get 24v 's to fit IMO.

yea i know but the stock head sucks. it would probably end up costing 5 grand total for the consumers for the new head and manifolds. it all depends on how all of the parts are made. it would obviously work but not many people are going to drop 5 grand one a new cyl. head.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (JRaptor2000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor2000* »_
yea i know but the stock head sucks. it would probably end up costing 5 grand total for the consumers for the new head and manifolds. it all depends on how all of the parts are made. it would obviously work but not many people are going to drop 5 grand one a new cyl. head.

i knwo the stock head sux but hey u gotta live with 2v cylindersheads. if not just get a damn 24v and stop whining. thats whats sort of challenging part.


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## midnightbluegli (Apr 5, 2004)

bump to watch


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (midnightbluegli)*

You know building a new head isnt THAT crazy of an idea, although I do not think that it is a really good idea at this point in the process. Maybe for the stage 3 or whatever the highest stage setup will be. 
I am really suprised nobody has mentioned the Drake heads for 16v motors. 
Some info: http://www.ffp-motorsport.com/tuning/collins1.php
They are incredibly rare at this point, but wait here is one for sale, not sure if he still has it or whatnot...


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (PhReE)*

Been a week since an update, figured I'd help keep it fresh.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Sorry guys..been working on this for weeks ... http://gsm.bildon.com
it's really soaking up every bit of extra time. 
We've now pulled in sponsors to go to a 3 car team and this is really putting the VR6 program to the back burner for a while until we get the details sorted.
However! All work has not stopped. I actually had somebody clear out a corner in the shop to get ready for the Golf 4 test car we'll be using as the stage 2 VR6 project Dyno queen. I'm looking to get that in here after our SCCA club racing season ends in mid November.
Stay tuned....


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## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Congrats on your new venture with GSM!! 
No worries, we aren't going anywhere. It's better to take it slow and have it done right than rush through any one part and mess up the whole project. Good luck in the 2007 Grand-Am Cup ST series. Let us know if any of the races are going to be brodcast, on what channel, and when http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (ridefuel)*

well congrats on the team up i know the guys from GSM i started out with vw in wilmington NC they are a good group of guys delt with them on a couple things hope things work out well


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (ridefuel)*

>> Let us know if any of the races are going to be brodcast
All races will be broadcast on SPEED channel.








http://www.grandamerican.com/E...ID=16
And if anyone has a company looking to get exposure:
http://gsm.bildon.com/Partners.cfm
Grand Am races on Speed Channel will be viewed by approximately 4.2 million viewers this season and is available in 50 million homes. On-Board camera exposure offers approximately 3 minutes per car, per race. Sponsor exposure is available either in the form of a sticker or by a sign on the dashboard. Every time there is a shot from the on-board camera the sponsor logo will be prominently and clearly displayed.
Contact us if interested:
http://gsm.bildon.com/Contacts.cfm
I've hijacked my own thread!


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

we will let it slide as long as good info still flows that is


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VWDave88)*

Have you guys seen this awesome intake design? Its for an R32 turbo, but I suspect it would work well for naturally aspirated as well.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...62834



























_Modified by phatvw at 11:32 PM 10-19-2006_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

The R32 use cam compensation so thats not a good idea


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The R32 use cam compensation so thats not a good idea 

I was thinking that too.... But they are doing the same on the exhaust headers. So they have equal effective intake length, equal effective exhaust length, but unequal i.e. mirrored cams.
Is that worse than the OEM MkIV setup of unequal intake, unequal exhaust, and mirrored cams?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I got some pics of both 24v and MK4 12 to show carbon on the pistons .
Ill get som pics from my car in a couple of days .
Ill post em here


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_

















Haven't seen that but that is exactly what I've been thinking about for while and what I was talking about when I posted the following.

_Quote, originally posted by *darren p.* »_ I think the best intake manifold design for a 12v involves lowering the radiator to overcome packaging constraints. with the radiator lowered, there would be enough room for a properly tuned short runner manifold. The plenum would be butting up against the grille and the runners would all be equal length (short intake ports would compensate by using longer runners protruding into the plenum). Throttle body could be on either side of the plenum


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The R32 use cam compensation so thats not a good idea 

For R32 motors, no...but I think thats they design Bildon or whoever else is interested in a short runner manifold for a naturally aspirated 12v VR6 should be looking at. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by darren p. at 7:46 PM 10-20-2006_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (darren p.)*

Yep, that's what you want to do with the manifold, just get the correct runner length for naturally aspirated. Fix the exhaust side as well.
I haven't read this post in a long time...
I can't belive people were talking about casting a totally brand new head.


----------



## dubbinclass05 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

check out schimmel performance. they have broken that barrier plenty of times...


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (dubbinclass05)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubbinclass05* »_check out schimmel performance. they have broken that barrier plenty of times...

Schimmel has broken 275hp normally aspirated?? That's news to me.
Maybe with a turbo (pretty easy), but I don't believe he has done it without one.
Please, prove me wrong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (James 93SLC)*

>> check out schimmel performance. they have broken that barrier plenty of times...
I've speak with Bill occasionally. Never has any NA motor come up.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> check out schimmel performance. they have broken that barrier plenty of times...
I've speak with Bill occasionally. Never has any NA motor come up.

He'll just tell you that it's not worth doing headwork, there's not much power there. HA!


----------



## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

Very good thread just found it today and read the entire thing... Can't wait for more updates...


----------



## stevevr6 (Dec 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

I know your busy, but any updates?


----------



## FLATBLACKMK2 (Oct 10, 2003)

*Re: (darren p.)*

HMMMMMMMMMMMM.

_Quote, originally posted by *darren p.* »_
Haven't seen that but that is exactly what I've been thinking about for while and what I was talking about when I posted the following.
For R32 motors, no...but I think thats they design Bildon or whoever else is interested in a short runner manifold for a naturally aspirated 12v VR6 should be looking at. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by darren p. at 7:46 PM 10-20-2006_


----------



## FlyGTI84 (May 1, 2000)

*Re: (FLATBLACKMK2)*

Not that it matters for the 12v, but here are some pics of a manifold Bernd made for his 24v we built. 275whp NA.
































I hope all is well for you guys Bill, and I am still hunting down those exhaust seat profiles for you.....You guys should talk to Brett Erickson about driving the GTI, as he is selling his Golf. 
Later


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (FlyGTI84)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FlyGTI84* »_Not that it matters for the 12v, but here are some pics of a manifold Bernd made for his 24v we built. 275whp NA.
































I hope all is well for you guys Bill, and I am still hunting down those exhaust seat profiles for you.....You guys should talk to Brett Erickson about driving the GTI, as he is selling his Golf. 
Later

The 24v use cam compensation so thats not a good idea


----------



## FlyGTI84 (May 1, 2000)

*Re: (foffa2002)*

I am aware of the stock 24v cams having compensation, but I didn't have time to put the Schrick cams on the Cam Doctor so see if they do or not......Plus this engine was out of a Eurovan, and the fitment engine was a Canadian engine without the hydraulic cam adjustment system, not sure if either of those have cam compensation or not.....
275whp 12:1, 272 Schricks, mildly ported head, TEC III
Something in there was a good idea


_Modified by FlyGTI84 at 11:57 PM 10-26-2006_


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (FlyGTI84)*

I like that intake ^^


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (FlyGTI84)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FlyGTI84* »_I am aware of the stock 24v cams having compensation, but I didn't have time to put the Schrick cams on the Cam Doctor so see if they do or not......Plus this engine was out of a Eurovan, and the fitment engine was a Canadian engine without the hydraulic cam adjustment system, not sure if either of those have cam compensation or not.....
275whp 12:1, 272 Schricks, mildly ported head, TEC III
Something in there was a good idea

_Modified by FlyGTI84 at 11:57 PM 10-26-2006_

u can't forget the 3.1l


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (FlyGTI84)*

plus why would they put the compesation in the manifold design as well?(stock)


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_plus why would they put the compesation in the manifold design as well?(stock)

Show me where this is done on the mk4 VR6 manifold...both 12v and 24v. It does not exist.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_plus why would they put the compesation in the manifold design as well?(stock)

No compensation .
Best pic ever








ive used it 11 times last week here on vortex


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*update*

Somebody asked for an update.....
Way back in the beginning I mentioned this would be a long term lower priority project and that priority has caused the initial estimate of Sept/Oct to become Nov/Dec.







But that's the way it is when a project has no budget. We need to get through the final 2 SCCA club races of the season and also tie up some loose ends on our Grand-Am Cup program and then we should have some more time to spend on the VR6 program. 
Having said that, we have actually begun to work on the stage 2 project a bit. It wont be ready to run it's first tests for many weeks. But rest assured it's in the shop and the pile parts we'll be testing with is growing around it.








I'm happy to see that you guys have continued to discuss this project while we've been away and that generally the thread has not disolved into a useless pissing match.. well done! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Scott, did you get the other runners cut up yet? post those pix!
Ben, I have the molds boxed and will be sending them soon, really!
Jesse, thanks for the loaner!
Chris, waiting patiently for that exh seat data
Cheers, all...


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*

Just for convo.. here is my intake project for my .:R


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: update (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Just for convo.. here is my intake project for my .:R










Interesting mockup. Instead of using the intake switchover rod, you're bypassing the runners entirely and using them as a plenum instead? Are you going to have a valve close at a certain RPM to close off the OEM TB location on the manifold?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: update (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Interesting mockup. Instead of using the intake switchover rod, you're bypassing the runners entirely and using them as a plenum instead? Are you going to have a valve close at a certain RPM to close off the OEM TB location on the manifold?

The factory shifter rod setup should function correctly for that purpose, exceopt the longer runners are not being turned off. However, knowing how the _Power Port_ functions, that would not have any gain what-so-ever. The purpose of runner length tuning is to tune the frequency/resonance pulses...the Power Port accomplishes this sufficiently. The pulse coming from the long runner is too late and bounces off of the backside of the intake valve, but then gets shot back up to the Power Port and refills it for the next cycle. I'll post up the SSP that explains all of this if needed.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: update (KingVR)*

Thats not a mockup.. it will be put on my car as soon as I finish the upper TB relocation section and install my cams at the same time.
I am aware how the stock system functions. This is just using the existing parts in a different way. At 4100 RPM the port will open allowing air to enter through the 2.5 inch inlet tube I fitted. It is a lot easier to breathe through short fat runners than through long skinny ones. Especially after my cam install and my larger TB. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## darren p. (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (FlyGTI84)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FlyGTI84* »_Not that it matters for the 12v, but here are some pics of a manifold Bernd made for his 24v we built. 275whp NA.

































Awesome, thanks for posting these! I've heard about this car for a while and have never seen any pics of it. Manifold looks great.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (darren p.)*

Call nme a moron but how does the above setup work? It appears that the TB only lets air into the plenum which only feds 3 cylinders.....so if there's a MAF or a MAP it only reads for 3 cylinders??


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

NEVERMIND answered my own question by looking at the last pic, seems like the longer trumpets are enclosed inside the finished plenum


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

*intake mani's*

Here is a page I stumbled on, it is geared for the VAG I5's but it shows some really interesting designs that maybe some of us can learn from:
http://www.bufkinengineering.c...s.htm


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: intake mani's (jungle)*

Not relevant to NA intakes but great historical tech pics http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: intake mani's (Bildon Motorsport)*

dual plenum intake manifolds shouldn't be used for naturally aspirated applications?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: intake mani's (Pf3il)*

I was referring to the turbo specific features. The extreme taper and the slit.
_Its a very different concept when compared against a normally aspirated car where each cylinder's vacuum draws air into the cylinder so a vacuous single plenum with velocity stacks makes a lot of sense. _


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

bump, i dont have tiem to read this thread now, but im in the process of building my 3.1L monster


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

*Comment 1:*
Page 6. 7/27/2006

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
> get rid of the "dish".
You cant

As in get rid of the dish in the piston
OK, i know the dish is in the piston, cause the head is flat, but what if you get a head gasket that is a HUGE spacer, and re-design the piston to have a dome. Similair to a Honda B-Series, like a Civic Type-R Piston... Maybe this will flow better?
Sounds dumb yeah, but IDK, just poped into my head. 
*
Comment 2:*
8-4-2006 
page 8

_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Almost forgot
Here's a cutaway from the 24V head, might help out a bit in the porting of the 12V. I like the way it trumpets down about halfway.








Comparison to the 12V. Just ignore the combustion chamber.









_Modified by VertigoGTI at 5:44 PM 8-2-2006_

Hmm, notice the 90 degree angle bent in the port on the 12v, and the 45 degree ish bend on the 24v?
*Comment 3:*
8-4-2006 
page 8

_Quote, originally posted by *Type S* »_

that outline drawn in the blue sharpie, is that the oem design of the ports? 










why is the exhaust port smaller than the intake port, its suppose to be reverse isnt it?
If you want to ignore my post/thoughts go ahead. Its 4am, i need to goto bed, took me 2 hours to read 8 pages, cant wait to read the rest in a few hours when I wake up.
Keep up the good work everyone
Best thread on Vortex...PERIOD
EDIT: i just woke up, its 6am, fell asleep thinking about vrs, and i woke up thinking about vrs. It feels like i just blinked...
anyways, the get rid of a dish idea is great I think, even tho it "cant be done"
Listen to this. 
The air comes in to the combustion chamber, and travels all the way around the valves to under the valve. (With the dish in the pistion)
If you make the combustion chamber above the piston, the air doesnt have to travel as far, so maybe it will flow better..
How does that sound?

_Modified by Weak VR at 2:05 AM 11-4-2006_

_Modified by Weak VR at 4:06 AM 11-4-2006_

_Modified by Weak VR at 4:07 AM 11-4-2006_

_Modified by Weak VR at 4:09 AM 11-4-2006_


_Modified by Weak VR at 5:55 AM 11-4-2006_


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (darren p.)*

My Contribution about the 45* trq dropoff theory: (From a few pages back)
Engine: 
Matrix Chip *to run Cat 268's*
Matrix Integrated 85mm 3.1L Block
JE 10.5CR Pistons
11.5 Compression
OE Shot-N-Peened Rods
Balanced and Polished Crank
GSB Enterprises Stage 2 Port and Polished Head w/Over-sized valves
Metal Stock thickness 3.1L head gasket
Stock cams and Springs
Samco Radiator Hoses
Oil Cooler
EuroSport Spark Plug Wires 

Transmission:
Peloquin LSD and Bolt Kit
Autotech 3.94 R&P
Rebuilt Trans with new gears
ACT 3 Puck 300-400HP Clutch
Autotech 11LB Flywheel 
Exhaust: 
Techtonics 2.5 Inch Cat-Back with Borla Muffler
High Flow 2.5inch Cat 
As far as I know, it has a complete stock valvetrain besides oversized valves, which iheard from 4seasons, that GSB used 1mm/2mm oversized Schricks, and later used copies of schricks (im thinkign i have real shricks, my head was done in November of 03 i beieve)
It has a Stock Intake manifold, and a stock exhaust manifold/downpipe,
Right no I have 2 spun bearings, and the motor is out of the car. Im getting the block fixed, and KingVR has talked me into an all Ferrea Valvetrain, along with 288's/276's (havnt decided yet). After all this Ill still be on stock intake and exhaust manifolds. Ferrea "aint" cheap, so I'll get the motor don, then a few months later/next season, ill buy the Schrick Mani, alogn with ported ex manis and a Bildon/TT Downpipe...








i did some digging, my car, with the previous owner, he had cat 268's i think
heres his dyno chart with everything I have listed plus 268's








Both to my understanding, are from a portable dyno... sucks, but thats all I have to help out your theory 
_Modified by Weak VR at 6:22 AM 11-4-2006_

_Modified by Weak VR at 6:24 AM 11-4-2006_

_Modified by Weak VR at 6:25 AM 11-4-2006_

_Modified by Weak VR at 6:26 AM 11-4-2006_


_Modified by Weak VR at 6:27 AM 11-4-2006_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

What are you AFRs on those runs? You should be making more power than that with you mods.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I didnt do a sniffy test, i was a lil low on the wallet, and i forgot my credit card that day...
Now its to late to do it again. I spun 2 rod bearings from a miss shift.
I am however rebuilding the 85mm block, and building the head. KingVR, has talked me into an all Ferrea Valvetrain... Maybe somehow I can do help this thread out with some work on my motor? Idk does that sound right? 
time for work.
oh yeah, i did have a CEL for running rich. I think it was because my charcoal canister was laying down. Plus remember i was on stock cams.... stock intake and exhaust manifolds...
one more thing, the dyno for 204whp, i guess it isnt in SAE corrected form, what ever that means... mine maybe as well? idk... 


_Modified by Weak VR at 4:19 PM 11-5-2006_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

what dyno is what again???


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_what dyno is what again???

top dyno is mine
bottom dyno is the previous owner of my car, at the time it had CAT 268's


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

he meant what make of dyno it was run on? like Dynojet or Mustang?


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (piran21)*

im unsure of the model, but they are both portable DYNOJETs


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Weak VR)*


_Quote »_OK, i know the dish is in the piston, cause the head is flat, but what if you get a head gasket that is a HUGE spacer, and re-design the piston to have a dome. Similair to a Honda B-Series, like a Civic Type-R Piston... Maybe this will flow better?


Even with the spacer, I don't think it would help much. One of the reasons why the domed piston works is because of the combustion chamber. It promotes enough swirl with the piston as the agitator and the chamber can make a smooth wave for the mix because of the shape. The VR6 is still flat, won't mix well and will be even harder to have the combustion light off in the middle of the piston. It'll load up either side of the piston with the force, killing rings, pistons and/or engine if the RPM is high enough.
Also, the squish band would be non-existant.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_he meant what make of dyno it was run on? like Dynojet or Mustang?

Nah, I ment what chart was his as I wasn't sure what was what.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_...won't mix well and will be even harder to have the combustion light off in the middle of the piston. It'll load up either side of the piston with the force, killing rings, pistons and/or engine if the RPM is high enough.

x2
This wouldn't work well with the flat 12V VR6 head.


----------



## never-lift (Jan 30, 2005)

damn, started reading this thread like 2 weeks ago, and in my spare time have just finished it. learned a lot, and dont really have any insight. so ill sit back and enjoy... good luck and cant wait to tear apart my vr


----------



## ACschnitzer23 (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: (never-lift)*

How about indivudial throttle bodies, to solve the intake manifold design, only to try to compensate for unequal length runners using something along the lines of throttle body spacers. That may help, with a bored out block and some high compression pistions radical cam and ignition tweaking may put it near your 275hp goal


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (ACschnitzer23)*

itbs are SERIOUSLY expensive
someone on here has a set along with standalone and still only put down 230 something whp
although thats a very impressive number for a 12v, the hp to dollar ratio is outrageous


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

That username 95GLX with the ITB's he has a completey stock bottom end with lots of miles on it if I remember correctly. He also only uses a CCH Head which have only mild porting done and some cast cleaning . I think with a built bottom and a really aggressive port job the #'s mentioned above should be attainable.Bildon-any flow numbers yet?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

Screw it. I'm going to the shop to get rid of the 12 valves altogether. I'm going to put these in and call it a day.
















....._i wish..._


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*update*

OK so things are finally slowing down a bit here... we've been preoccupied with a few other projects as mentioned before.
Just got done with the racing season. Here is a video of our 12v VR6 running in the ARRC at Road Atlanta.
http://ww2.bildon.com/ARRC_2006_ITS_Race.wmv
Here are a few shots of the Grand Am Cup GTI getting ready to put the cage in it....
http://www.bildon.com/pub/MVC-002F.JPG
http://www.bildon.com/pub/MVC-011F.JPG
http://www.bildon.com/pub/gti3.jpg
We're getting closer to being able to play with the VR6s again....


----------



## Phishy (Jul 5, 2001)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*

awesome video, looks like some dicey racing. Those RX-7's are loud as hell


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*

Excellent video 
Does the corvette hit you at 11:30 in the movie? 
Can we get some specs on the Raddo?


_Modified by Vr6Fidelity at 10:42 PM 11-15-2006_


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_OK so things are finally slowing down a bit here... we've been preoccupied with a few other projects as mentioned before.


Take your time! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
On a side note, i got my TT 288's in the mail yesterday! Now i just need to save up for the rest of the buildup! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_OK so things are finally slowing down a bit here... we've been preoccupied with a few other projects as mentioned before.


Take your time! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
On a side note, i got my TT 288's in the mail yesterday! Now i just need to save up for the rest of the buildup! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: update (Vr6Fidelity)*

>> Does the corvette hit you at 11:30 in the movie?
Maybe. Rubbin' is racin'








>> Can we get some specs on the Raddo?
http://www.bildon.com/racing/r...rrado/
This is basically our Stg 1 motor with no cams. SCCA ITS rules do not allow much to be done to the engine. It's bored 1mm over, fully balanced and blueprinted and the compression is bumped up a bit. The pan is baffled with windage and scrapers which makes a few HP. The big gains were made by spending a whole day on the dyno doing a custom ECU tune. We picked up ~18hp over stock chip and ~8 over a GIAC chip. Due to the race engine quality assembly, the engine has very little internal friction aiding power output considerably. There are a few other little tricks in it but there is no 'magic' in this engine, just details, details, details...
The engine makes 207hp at the crank, with NO porting and NO cams.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Does the corvette hit you at 11:30 in the movie?
Maybe. Rubbin' is racin'








>> Can we get some specs on the Raddo?
http://www.bildon.com/racing/r...rrado/
This is basically our Stg 1 motor with no cams. SCCA ITS rules do not allow much to be done to the engine. It's bored 1mm over, fully balanced and blueprinted and the compression is bumped up a bit. The pan is baffled with windage and scrapers which makes a few HP. The big gains were made by spending a whole day on the dyno doing a custom ECU tune. We picked up ~18hp over stock chip and ~8 over a GIAC chip. Due to the race engine quality assembly, the engine has very little internal friction aiding power output considerably. There are a few other little tricks in it but there is no 'magic' in this engine, just details, details, details...
The engine makes 207hp at the crank, with NO porting and NO cams.









HOLY CRAP, 207, with no real power adders.. thats interesting...
Tuning is everything. Hmm, wanna do my car?? haha Seriously, I live in WI, longggggg drive...haha


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: update (Weak VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weak VR* »_HOLY CRAP, 207, with no real power adders.. thats interesting...

207 crank is good, but when you take 15% away after it's measured at the wheels, that's only about 176whp. I have dyno sheets from back in the day with my GIAC chip, no cat or resonators, just a stock muffler and home-made CAI...put down 178whp like that without ever cracking the engine open.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

Scott,
207 is at Crank, the # was derived from 180whp on a calibrated Mustang - the 15% you mention for losses.
>> put down 178whp like that without ever cracking the engine open.
No cams? You made 205CHP with an untouched 12v, chip and no cams?
How did you "make" this power.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:59 AM 11-16-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Scott,
207 is at Crank, the # was derived from 180whp on a calibrated Mustang - the 15% you mention for losses.
>> put down 178whp like that without ever cracking the engine open.
No cams? You made 205CHP with an untouched 12v, chip and no cams?
How did you "make" this power.

...that is what I said...isn't it? It sounded like you had done the measurement at the crank in order to get that exact number, so I simply did the math:
207 * .85 = 175.95
...however, if you take 180 (whp) and multiply that by 15% (.15) you get 207...but because 180 is a larger number than 175.95 (I think we can agree to that) you get a different answer at the end. Not trying to sound like you're doing something wrong, but I see the math done like that so much...am I the only one that sees it as not being correct?
Regardless, 180whp on a Mustang dyno is impressive....my numbers were on a DynoJet.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes we do all our tuning on a Mustang. We have compared 3 Mustangs using the same setup parameters and they are all pretty darn close. But our primary dyno is the one we do all our back to back testing for consistency. As weall know it's not the # itself that is important, but the delta.
>> ...that is what I said...isn't it?
Yes sir, but aside from the chip what did you do to make ~25 more hp than stock?


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Looks like ditching the cat really free's up the top-end...even on a non-cammed motor. Awesome vids and work.....cant wait to see Stage 2


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

a test pipe will give you a little bit of top end but you also lose torque
I'm running a cai, 2.5" exhaust, vgi, 268's, and a giac chip
I made 180hp and 180trq with the stock cat
and 185hp and 175 trq with a test pipe and 02 sensor block


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_...but aside from the chip what did you do to make ~25 more hp than stock?

Removed the cat, the suitcase, and the hotdog, and made a CAI from a Poppa Johns Pizza box (heat shield) and Home Depot stove pipe tubing to blow a bath of fresh air on the filter. 
On the same dyno session after making the 178whp and 178 wtq, I removed the heat shield and shut of the floor fan blowing at my air inlet below the bumper. WHEEL HP lost was an avgerage of 9 across the board.
It's kinda funny how everyone KNOWS that a cone filter sitting by an engine without a fresh air supply and heat shield is a bad idea...but pretty much most every engine bay pic that I come across (VR6 or not) has this exact setup breathing hot air. I guess there are a lot of people that are ok with losing 10 horsepower...so when everone laughed at me for using items found in the recycling bin in my garage, I laughed at them!


----------



## Phishy (Jul 5, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Removed the cat, the suitcase, and the hotdog, and made a CAI from a Poppa Johns Pizza box (heat shield) and Home Depot stove pipe tubing to blow a bath of fresh air on the filter. 
On the same dyno session after making the 178whp and 178 wtq, I removed the heat shield and shut of the floor fan blowing at my air inlet below the bumper. WHEEL HP lost was an avgerage of 9 across the board.


hmm.. after having about 10 different intake set-ups on 4 different motors (2 different VR's, MKIV and OBD1) I can honestly say I've never felt much of a difference from one to the other, not calling you a liar but I'm having a hard time believing almost anything your saying, most stock-ish VR's around here put down ~150whp on the local dynojet


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

>> a test pipe will give you a little bit of top end but you lose a substantial amount of torque
You can actually gain more torque across the board by removing the cat. The cat is a just a restriction, not a tuned element of the exhaust like an expansion chamber in a tuned muffler can be. 
King, you are spot on with the CAI. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif A better test would have been to move the filter back and leave your floor fan on to simulate air at road speeds. Killing that fan always hurts power. We picked up ~5hp with our CAI and another few with smooth 3" alu piping to the TB.
While a SOURCE of cool air is important, heat isolating gaskets did nothing as the fast moving air running through the intakes is not in contact with the walls for the split second time it's in the manifold...but we've discussed this before.
Everybody out there should pull the carbon canister out of the hole it's in and run your intake down into it with a GOOD cone filter on the other side. Get yourself some free ponies.
King, what was your base HP level before you added the chip or CAI?
Those #s aren't adding up unless the DJ had your base HP at way over 180hp stock. I've never seen a GIAC 12v chip make more than 12hp. Perhaps there were some out there that did? I just dont see GIAC going that lean though, they are too paranoid.


----------



## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

you sir, have a pm http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> a test pipe will give you a little bit of top end but you lose a substantial amount of torque
You can actually gain more torque across the board by removing the cat. The cat is a just a restriction, not a tuned element of the exhaust like an expansion chamber in a tuned muffler can be. 
King, you are spot on with the CAI. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif A better test would have been to move the filter back and leave your floor fan on to simulate air at road speeds. Killing that fan always hurts power. We picked up ~5hp with our CAI and another few with smooth 3" alu piping to the TB.
While a SOURCE of cool air is important, heat isolating gaskets did nothing as the fast moving air running through the intakes is not in contact with the walls for the split second time it's in the manifold...but we've discussed this before.
Everybody out there should pull the carbon canister out of the hole it's in and run your intake down into it with a GOOD cone filter on the other side. Get yourself some free ponies.
King, what was your base HP level before you added the chip or CAI?
Those #s aren't adding up unless the DJ had your base HP at way over 180hp stock. I've never seen a GIAC 12v chip make more than 12hp. Perhaps there were some out there that did? I just dont see GIAC going that lean though, they are too paranoid.

Here's an interesting thing I noticed about taking the cat out:
~With cat in, and stock chip I went to the local drag strip: 15.0 in the 1/4 mile
~With cat out and STOCK CHIP at the track the next week: 15.3
~Put cat back in and went back: 15.0 (again)
~Bought GIAC chip and went back (with cat in): 14.8
~Just out of curiosity, took the cat out again now that I was chipped: 14.5

When I first bought my VR in 99' (it was a 96' model) I went to a dyno and put down about 159whp.
BTW, when I said I "shut off the floor fan, we still had the main large floor fan blowing at the front of the car. The floor fan was a Power Cat brand IIRC, which I positioned so that it was blowing right at the stove pipe sitting behind the lower grill (removed) to simulate fresh air bathing the air filter, just as it would while driving.
For people "pulling the carbon canister out of the hole" they should be sure to hook it up to the frame bracket on the other side of the car. There is a bracket identical on that side just like the passenger side for it to mount to. Simply run more rubber hose to that side and it's a factory-looking install.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
...as far as my power claim being far fetched, I have documentation of the intake being effective for 9 - 10 hp at the wheel at ALL RPM's. So if you take 178whp and take away 9 - 10whp, you would get 168 - 169 with a GIAC and cat, hotdog and suitcase (restrictive items obviously) removed. I don't think that is too radical sounding. If it is, it would explain why my VR ran 14.5's on 17's and full interior and whooped up on people on the street. One of those _Sunday Cars_ as they would call it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

You have a "Wednesday" Wolfsburg motor...pre-Beer break, too!


----------



## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
It's kinda funny how everyone KNOWS that a cone filter sitting by an engine without a fresh air supply and heat shield is a bad idea...but pretty much most every engine bay pic that I come across (VR6 or not) has this exact setup breathing hot air. I guess there are a lot of people that are ok with losing 10 horsepower...so when everone laughed at me for using items found in the recycling bin in my garage, I laughed at them! 









When I ran my 12v GTI at the track I always took out the headlight for that fresh air source... It worked very well for me...


_Modified by climbingcue at 4:56 PM 11-16-2006_


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

Everyone got good results with Turn 2's flared end cold air intake. I love mine.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (vdubjb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubjb* »_Everyone got good results with Turn 2's flared end cold air intake. I love mine. 

I have one too, i Like it... But my charcoal canister is laying on the frame right their... ill relocate it like you said King VR, maybe thats why i have a CEL for running rich, the canister can do that i guess, at least thats what the Bentley Book says....
to all =


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

I completely agree that WEAK VRs motor may have made high 170s with the mods listed.
I have never had any of my cars on a dyno, but what i can say is that with nothing more than crush bent piping in place of the factory resonator, welded in 2.25 piping for the canister resonator, home made(pretty bad), test pipe, and an 8 dollar ram air intake i was able to squeeze 14.4s and 96mph out of my 95 GTi on the STOCK chip. all that was taken out was the back seat and spare.








yes, those are 2 litre bottles and an oil funnel








homegrown exhaust
This thread is interesting
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (GTIStile)*

gtistile, i've enjoyed your drag vids.....
but that intake officially makes you my ****ing idol


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
...that is what I said...isn't it? It sounded like you had done the measurement at the crank in order to get that exact number, so I simply did the math:
207 * .85 = 175.95
...however, if you take 180 (whp) and multiply that by 15% (.15) you get 207...but because 180 is a larger number than 175.95 (I think we can agree to that) you get a different answer at the end. Not trying to sound like you're doing something wrong, but I see the math done like that so much...am I the only one that sees it as not being correct?


Assuming 15% drivetrain loss:
Wheel HP = Crank HP * 0.85
Crank Hp = Wheel HP / 0.85 = Wheel HP * 1.176
Very simple grade 3 math








But I thought the accepted drivetrain loss was ~13%?
Whats the difference in drivetrain loss if you have straight-cut vs helical gears? LSD vs OEM open-diff? Obviously lightened rotating components like clutch, flywheel, crank, axles, wheels, brake rotors will make a difference too...
Incidentally, my mkIV 12v with GIAC, K&N and DIY home depot intake made
171WHP @5300 RPM & 183ft-lb @3550 RPM
I gather that is a particularly strong motor...


_Modified by phatvw at 5:52 PM 11-16-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I think I'm loosing something here...let me try it once more.
207 with 15% taken off = 175.95
If Bill dyno'd 180 at the wheel and you add 15% to that, you get 207.
In order to correctly get the answer to "what does it make at the engine if the measured power at the wheel is 15% loss?" you would have to guess at a crankshaft hp figure until you get to a result of 180. In this case, it would be 212 at the crank.
212 * .85 = 180.2
Bill...you sold yourself short by about 5 crank horsepower. In addition to that, how much lower are your Mustang dyno #'s compared to a DJ brand dyno? You should possibly need to use a higher percent since most Mustang Dyno sheets put down considerabley lower numbers than a DJ.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

We just use 15% when we want to make a quick and dirty crank # It's NOT a # to put any emphasis on.
In reality all we know is the wheel torque measured at the rollers. This is the important # as you compare changes on OUR one dyno. The drive train loss figure can be different depending multiple things as was mentioned above and more. So from here on out we'll just discuss wheel torque so that nobody gets confused.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
In order to correctly get the answer to "what does it make at the engine if the measured power at the wheel is 15% loss?" you would have to guess at a crankshaft hp figure until you get to a result of 180. In this case, it would be 212 at the crank.
212 * .85 = 180.2


Has nothing to do with guessing. And what is this adding 15% thing? Thats not correct. Instead of multiplying by 1.15, you divide by 0.85. While I acknowledge the number isn't that important, if you're sloppy or don't care about simple grade school math concepts then that sloppiness _may_ reflect elsewhere. 
180/0.85 = 211.76
Whatever the number is, thats a lot of power! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by phatvw at 10:04 PM 11-16-2006_


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

http://www.rri.se
02A and 02J got 8-10% drivetrain loss .
02M 4-motion 12-15%
13-15% are used by chip tuning companies to boost their gains


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: update (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_The engine makes 207hp at the crank, with NO porting and NO cams.









FWIW using the drag calculators out there my car sits between 201 (ET) and 210(mph) hp at the crank with only GIAC, 262s, Mk4 gasket, T2 intake, 42 test pipe, and TT 2.5" exhaust. I can see a well tuned 2.9 version making that same power without the cams easily.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (foffa2002)*

>> 02A and 02J got 8-10% drivetrain loss
Hey nice resource! but keep in mind that # does not include Tires, R&P, Gear, all which will alter the drive line loss figure from run to run / car to car.
I think we've beat this simple concept to death by now.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

It pisses me off that people with 20 dollar mods are making as much as my motor... (174 whp)
Not salty at at all, but seriously, that is ghey. I have more displacment, ported bvh head, and im still getting the same numbers, not to meantion short gears and lsd, and my time are slower than most of yours..


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

2 words for you...
*CUSTOM TUNE* 
We made most of our Stg 1 power through careful fueling and timing mods.
Yes it took all day. We're still tweaking it in fact.


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

These motors are very strange...at least in my experience. 
The car that i posted above when i first purchased it WOULD NOT trap over 90mph. LS integras were beating me... best time with ONLY an intake cone and removed resonator was 15.1 @ 90.XX mph. i was convinced i had a friday motor, it seemed weak.
next time out, same identical setup, i went 14.8 @ 92.33mph. i cut a better 60ft, but the trap speed also increased 2mph, and i had changed NOTHING.
and then, the last time i had it out ran the 14.4. i had added my 2 litre bottle intake, and one seriously ghetto, not well made test pipe that i made in my buddies garage. the car also trapped 96mph. no aftermarket chip or tune.
it seemed like the more i drove the car the stronger it got. when i first bought it, i was VERY dissapointed and figured i just got one of the weaker VR's. Next thing you know, it's running times that had people not believing... Dont get frustrated, just beat on that car some more and it'll get faster http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by GTIStile at 9:20 AM 11-17-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (GTIStile)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIStile* »_it seemed like the more i drove the car the stronger it got. when i first bought it, i was VERY dissapointed and figured i just got one of the weaker VR's. Next thing you know, it's running times that had people not believing... Dont get frustrated, just beat on that car some more and it'll get faster http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I always seem to get a weak engine in every car I have owned, but within a few months it's running stronger than everyone else around town. People have always accused me of cheating and doing all the hidden mods possible. It's gotta be some way of how I drive the engine. Can't really describe it, but waaaay back I had a 91' Civic Si hatch running 16.2 with a slipping clutch, fixed that and did 15.9's all day long...comical but true, every week that I went back to the track it would drop a tenth till it got to 15.4 seconds. People would call me out in a crowd and question me as to how my 108hp engine would be beating other Civics with the 127hp engine and mods. I asked them when they changed out the spark plugs last and got answers like: "Well...I've owned it for 3 years...I don't know if the previous owner ever changed them out...BUT WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH *ANYTHING????*"


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_2 words for you...
*CUSTOM TUNE* 
We made most of our Stg 1 power through careful fueling and timing mods.
Yes it took all day. We're still tweaking it in fact. 

Defintiely a large factor. My old 2.9 motor only made 197whp but now that I look back at that build the one thing that was lacking was a program that could run the car and run it well. It just gets worse and worse the more you build these cars up. The GIAC is great for safety but not for max power.. looking at the wideband logs there's a lot that needs to be tweaked.


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

GIAC's tend to run very rich under WOT acceleration... it's a shame there isnt something along the lines of a Hondata for VW's... just being able to tune like they do would be kick ass


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (GTIStile)*

It's out there, just a pain in the rear to implement.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (GTIStile)*

>> it's a shame there isnt something along the lines of a Hondata for VW's...
Ahh but there is. Would you pay $800 for it?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> it's a shame there isnt something along the lines of a Hondata for VW's...
Ahh but there is. Would you pay $800 for it?

Yes of course I would if I had a VR6


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (GTIStile)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIStile* »_Dont get frustrated, just beat on that car some more and it'll get faster http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by GTIStile at 9:20 AM 11-17-2006_

I did, and now I have 2 spun rod bearings, and the cash flow to finish the buildup. 
I know tuning is what i need, and yes it is unfortunate that Hondata doesnt really exist in the VW VR world... But even then, Im in WI.. Where can i go for REAL tuning.... I havent really looked into it, but seriously... This is frustrating...
BTW, KingVR, sorry I havnt called all week, ive been busy, and by the time i remember to call its 630pm central time....
If i decide to go with tuning, i wont be able to afford the Ferrea valvetrain i want to get...








anyways, i dont want to blab on about my motor, so yeah... GO BILDON!
edit: i slaughtered this reply with spelling errors, i redid it


_Modified by Weak VR at 6:54 AM 11-17-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> it's a shame there isnt something along the lines of a Hondata for VW's...
Ahh but there is. Would you pay $800 for it?

To do Hondata properly usually runs around $600 from what I have heard, all depending on the ECM model/type from what I understand. I would gladly pay $800 for those features. People with 1.8T engines pay $400 - $500 for a simple ECM flash!!
The only standalone system I would consider is going to run me about $2k so for $1200 savings to not have the ability to do a wideband autotune, it sound liek a fair price....bring it on!!


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Im sure people would pay the $800


----------



## Peter_VR6 (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

There are other options for stand alone engine managment out there.
http://www.msefi.com
I am using megasquirt. As soon as I get a wide band O2 sensor the total I have spent is $500 USD. 
I'm building a 2.9 VR6 inspired by this thread. (Thanks for the pistons Bill! Just recieved them on Tuesday)
Except I'm port and polishing the head
Running a 41mm intake and 36mm exhaust valves
Porting the the stock exhaust manifold
Cold air intake and custom 2.5" exhaust
stock cams - for the first little while

With any luck I'll be able to post up the dyno charts as soon as its done and help contribute to this great thread.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Peter_VR6)*

>> As soon as I get a wide band O2 sensor 
If you are going to road tune I'd suggest a logging WBO2 with RPM unit so you can DRIVE instead of crash while watching the gauge.
If you are going to dyno tune you can get away with the Dyno's WB.
We can supply any of you with Innovate's excellent products for less than anyone else sells them for. We've tried many types and the Innovate is the way to go. It logs, has great software and the sensors are dirt cheap through us should you tear one off or foul it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> Thanks for the pistons Bill! 
Sorry they took so long. That Euro distributor is all set up now. Future orders should be faster.
>> Except I'm port and polishing the head
Unless you have a bunch of heads, follow along as we port a few over the winter.
>> stock cams - for the first little while
We have 6 sets of cams, waiting to be tested. Back to back, all on the same Stg 1 motor. Then we'll run the same 6 cams through a ported Stg 2 motor and see how they stack up. We way behind but the winter will be full of VR6 fun








Happy Friday


----------



## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Unless you have a bunch of heads, follow along as we port a few over the winter. 

im def waiting then


----------



## Peter_VR6 (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
>> Except I'm port and polishing the head
Unless you have a bunch of heads, follow along as we port a few over the winter.
>> stock cams - for the first little while
We have 6 sets of cams, waiting to be tested. Back to back, all on the same Stg 1 motor. Then we'll run the same 6 cams through a ported Stg 2 motor and see how they stack up. We way behind but the winter will be full of VR6 fun









I've already ported the intake and started polishing the exhaust.








Hopefully I didn't do anything that will be detriment to performance. Can't wait to see what you guys do. I'll hold off on the cams till I see your numbers.


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (DST_VR6)*

"Unless you have a bunch of heads, follow along as we port a few over the winter"
damn am i glad i bought the spare paperweight


----------



## jazon2000 (Mar 14, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (95GLX)*

ur 98 vr does 11.7 on the 1/4 mile n/a wat u have?


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jazon2000)*

Id gladly pay 800 for the standalone setup. But seriously, where can i go around WI to get it tuned...


----------



## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jazon2000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jazon2000* »_ur 98 vr does 11.7 on the 1/4 mile n/a wat u have?

Anthony can correct me if I am wrong, but alot of that time has to do with the weight of the car something around 1980 lbs with driver... He also has throttle boddies and stand alone...


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> a test pipe will give you a little bit of top end but you lose a substantial amount of torque
You can actually gain more torque across the board by removing the cat. The cat is a just a restriction, not a tuned element of the exhaust like an expansion chamber in a tuned muffler can be. 
King, you are spot on with the CAI. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif A better test would have been to move the filter back and leave your floor fan on to simulate air at road speeds. Killing that fan always hurts power. We picked up ~5hp with our CAI and another few with smooth 3" alu piping to the TB.
While a SOURCE of cool air is important, heat isolating gaskets did nothing as the fast moving air running through the intakes is not in contact with the walls for the split second time it's in the manifold...but we've discussed this before.
Everybody out there should pull the carbon canister out of the hole it's in and run your intake down into it with a GOOD cone filter on the other side. Get yourself some free ponies.
King, what was your base HP level before you added the chip or CAI?
Those #s aren't adding up unless the DJ had your base HP at way over 180hp stock. I've never seen a GIAC 12v chip make more than 12hp. Perhaps there were some out there that did? I just dont see GIAC going that lean though, they are too paranoid.


You picked up some HP with the smooth pipe to the TB? Everything I've read about the ABD big bore seems to indicate no HP increase.
Am I mistaken? You doing something differently? Are you going to be playing around with the TB as well? (sorry it's been a long time since I've read the whole thread if you've coverd this already)


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_You picked up some HP with the smooth pipe to the TB? Everything I've read about the ABD big bore seems to indicate no HP increase.
Am I mistaken? You doing something differently? Are you going to be playing around with the TB as well? (sorry it's been a long time since I've read the whole thread if you've coverd this already)

If I'm not mistaken, the ABD is not a CAI...it's mearly one of those "I want to breath less dense air into the engine and lose power, yet look pretty when people look under the hood" kind of intakes. Snakes Oil for sale!!


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
If I'm not mistaken, the ABD is not a CAI...it's mearly one of those "I want to breath less dense air into the engine and lose power, yet look pretty when people look under the hood" kind of intakes. Snakes Oil for sale!!

i think he's talking about this part though.
"We picked up ~5hp with our CAI and *another few with smooth 3" alu piping to the TB.*"


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (ArpyArpad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ArpyArpad* »_i think he's talking about this part though.
"We picked up ~5hp with our CAI and *another few with smooth 3" alu piping to the TB.*"

Ahhh, in that case, perhaps the smooth bore is a good thing, but the gain is negated by hotter air it brings in.


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (KingVR)*

The ABD Big Bore is only the pipe from the maf to the throttle body. The intake they sell is called a QFlow. It is a hot air sucker.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Yes, that is what I meant...the section between the maf and tb.
You can obviously still run a cai with this. I just thought from all
the old posts I'd read the big bore did not do anything aside from change throttle response. Without a larger bore tb I am curious as to
why this would do anything? I can understand the cai due to the 
colder dense air but the other tube? Any thoughts or more info
on this Bill?


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I need a Stg. 3 performance head ASAP I'm choking my bottom end and pinging on CA 91 octane gas...HELP!


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Morrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Morrado* »_I need a Stg. 3 performance head ASAP I'm choking my bottom end and pinging on CA 91 octane gas...HELP!










I assume you are running standalone with a ~3.3l setup. I will tune it for you for free if you bring your car up here.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

Im selling my TT 288's I just picked up, i dont want to risk contact with my 85mm pistons. 300 firm plus shipping. turned over, not ran! Bought from WRD, they couldnt use them...
I figured Id post in here cause well, it makes sence
Bump for Bildon, and the holiday season


----------



## nutbox11 (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

what is $800?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (ArpyArpad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ArpyArpad* »_
i think he's talking about this part though.
"We picked up ~5hp with our CAI and *another few with smooth 3" alu piping to the TB.*"



Bill any thoughts on why the smooth pipe to the TB picked up power?


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Bill any thoughts on why the smooth pipe to the TB picked up power?

less turbulence & drag i would guess. the OEM piece has that accordian action.


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

I think Rapid sells one of those power Rohr tb-maf tubes. I'd like to try one, but they seem a bit over priced. http://www.rapidparts.com/rpeP...=2643


_Modified by vdubjb at 11:46 PM 12-4-2006_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (vdubjb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubjb* »_I think Rapid sells one of those power Rohr tb-maf tubes. I'd like to try one, but they seem a bit over priced. http://www.rapidparts.com/rpeP...=2643

DAMN!!! 100 bucks? Just about anyone in this post can fab one of these up for less than $15.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

>> Bill any thoughts on why the smooth pipe to the TB picked up power?
Yah it flowed more








Seriously we didn't do any flow tests on it yet but it obviously flows better. Whether that is due to less turb, or just more air (3") we've yet to determine. But not gonna argue with results. Still messing with various designs.. this one probably wont work without solid motor mounts. It was an attempt to straighten the tubing as much as possible.
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%5Fproj/Corrado 001.jpg 
So... we're finally getting caught up. (yah I know you heard that before)
In January you WILL see progress again. Until then then look what Santa brought: http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%...8.jpg
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%...7.jpg







Merry Merry, we'll be gone most of the rest of December. 
See you in '07! 










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:10 PM 12-4-2006_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Samcos....
I should look into those. Already busted 2 hoses in the past 2 months.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Yah it flowed more








Seriously we didn't do any flow tests on it yet but it obviously flows better. Whether that is due to less turb, or just more air (3") we've yet to determine. But not gonna argue with results. Still messing with various designs.. this one probably wont work without solid motor mounts. It was an attempt to straighten the tubing as much as possible.
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%5Fproj/Corrado 001.jpg 



I welded a 3" bend straight on the TB for "looks" but I guess it might be a better idea for power that I thought. Could this be the first cosmetic mod that actually makes power?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*

I would have to think that this mod would be further utilized with a
bored and de-ramped TB.


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_

I assume you are running standalone with a ~3.3l setup. I will tune it for you for free if you bring your car up here. 

I'll take you up on that offer, I'll drive up and bring the







(For after the tune)


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Northren vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Northren vr6* »_"Unless you have a bunch of heads, follow along as we port a few over the winter"
damn am i glad i bought the spare paperweight









Speaking of heads, I have another low mileage (67K) a/p delete, head from an auto 99 Passat if someone is in need. Tanked & jet cleaned, no surfacing... yet


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Morrado)*


_Quote »_I would have to think that this mod would be further utilized with a bored and de-ramped TB. 

How would the partial throttle be with a de-ramped TB? I always thought that taking the ramps out made the engine really jumpy during city driving and messed up the idle.


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

This is going to sound slightly crazy for most mechanically inclined types. I'll throw it out there anyways. 
I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in my schoolings, and from being around some high end engineering. I've seen it used on jet engine analysis. Using PET scans to show flow through an engine. So one can see air densities within a flowing head in real-time in 3D. Where a flow bench knows the properties of the air going in, and measures it on the way out, and have to guess what is going on inside. So a quick PET scan shows exactly where there are turbulent spots, and where there are smooth spots. Quick and dirty, obviously want smooth spots getting the air in, and then dirty up the path to mix thoroughly with fuel when the injector atomizes it. 
Also, it could see the resonance that Bill and someone else spoke about too. 
positron isotopes that flow like air and fuel is a different story, but could also apply SPECT, (single photon emission computer tomography), but photons gets attenuated quite quickly in high Z material. 
Anybody ever heard of this, or am I just talking greek to you all?
-Kyle


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ATL_VR6* »_This is going to sound slightly crazy for most mechanically inclined types. I'll throw it out there anyways. 
I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in my schoolings, and from being around some high end engineering. I've seen it used on jet engine analysis. Using PET scans to show flow through an engine. So one can see air densities within a flowing head in real-time in 3D. Where a flow bench knows the properties of the air going in, and measures it on the way out, and have to guess what is going on inside. So a quick PET scan shows exactly where there are turbulent spots, and where there are smooth spots. Quick and dirty, obviously want smooth spots getting the air in, and then dirty up the path to mix thoroughly with fuel when the injector atomizes it. 
Also, it could see the resonance that Bill and someone else spoke about too. 
positron isotopes that flow like air and fuel is a different story, but could also apply SPECT, (single photon emission computer tomography), but photons gets attenuated quite quickly in high Z material. 
Anybody ever heard of this, or am I just talking greek to you all?
-Kyle


I understand what you're talking about. I think that kind a testing apparatus is WAY beyond the scope of this project. I couldn't even imagine the costs associated with setting it up. You can't just haul your VR6 motor into a pay-per-use Radioogy clinic...


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ATL_VR6* »_This is going to sound slightly crazy for most mechanically inclined types. I'll throw it out there anyways. 
I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in my schoolings, and from being around some high end engineering. I've seen it used on jet engine analysis. Using PET scans to show flow through an engine. So one can see air densities within a flowing head in real-time in 3D. Where a flow bench knows the properties of the air going in, and measures it on the way out, and have to guess what is going on inside. So a quick PET scan shows exactly where there are turbulent spots, and where there are smooth spots. Quick and dirty, obviously want smooth spots getting the air in, and then dirty up the path to mix thoroughly with fuel when the injector atomizes it. 
Also, it could see the resonance that Bill and someone else spoke about too. 
positron isotopes that flow like air and fuel is a different story, but could also apply SPECT, (single photon emission computer tomography), but photons gets attenuated quite quickly in high Z material. 
Anybody ever heard of this, or am I just talking greek to you all?
-Kyle

greek...and your punctuation is ****in with me







, or is that how the greeks punctuate?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ATL_VR6* »_This is going to sound slightly crazy for most mechanically inclined types. I'll throw it out there anyways. 
I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in my schoolings, and from being around some high end engineering. I've seen it used on jet engine analysis. Using PET scans to show flow through an engine. So one can see air densities within a flowing head in real-time in 3D. Where a flow bench knows the properties of the air going in, and measures it on the way out, and have to guess what is going on inside. So a quick PET scan shows exactly where there are turbulent spots, and where there are smooth spots. Quick and dirty, obviously want smooth spots getting the air in, and then dirty up the path to mix thoroughly with fuel when the injector atomizes it. 
Also, it could see the resonance that Bill and someone else spoke about too. 
positron isotopes that flow like air and fuel is a different story, but could also apply SPECT, (single photon emission computer tomography), but photons gets attenuated quite quickly in high Z material. 
Anybody ever heard of this, or am I just talking greek to you all?
-Kyle


I think that we can observe such turbulance part by part. theres alot of engineering that still has been untouched in this project.


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

BUMP... had to dig to find the post


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Morrado)*

does anybody have any flow numbers with stock 12v heads compared to 24v's 2.8 and 3.2?


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ATL_VR6* »_This is going to sound slightly crazy for most mechanically inclined types. I'll throw it out there anyways. 
I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in my schoolings, and from being around some high end engineering. I've seen it used on jet engine analysis. Using PET scans to show flow through an engine. So one can see air densities within a flowing head in real-time in 3D. Where a flow bench knows the properties of the air going in, and measures it on the way out, and have to guess what is going on inside. So a quick PET scan shows exactly where there are turbulent spots, and where there are smooth spots. Quick and dirty, obviously want smooth spots getting the air in, and then dirty up the path to mix thoroughly with fuel when the injector atomizes it. 
Also, it could see the resonance that Bill and someone else spoke about too. 
positron isotopes that flow like air and fuel is a different story, but could also apply SPECT, (single photon emission computer tomography), but photons gets attenuated quite quickly in high Z material. 
Anybody ever heard of this, or am I just talking greek to you all?
-Kyle


it makes complete sense.....if you know how to work this equipment could you possibley research the head a bit?could def. put us down a path we didnt even know about..... interesting stuff i've read about it but nothing more i'd love to see research in this manner on the VR6
p.s. dont they use this technology in the medical field?? 


_Modified by Corradokcid at 9:37 PM 12-11-2006_


----------



## tallicagolf (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_it makes complete sense.....if you know how to work this equipment could you possibley research the head a bit?could def. put us down a path we didnt even know about..... interesting stuff i've read about it but nothing more i'd love to see research in this manner on the VR6
p.s. dont they use this technology in the medical field?? 

_Modified by Corradokcid at 9:37 PM 12-11-2006_

Yea it is, I remember once they wanted to do a PET test on me to see what parts of the brain were reacting to certian stimuli(Part of a research study I participated in). Its basically radioactive water that they would inject to trace brain actitivity. I refused the test, I didn't feel like dealing with somthing like that.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (tallicagolf)*

any updates?


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (tallicagolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_
it makes complete sense.....if you know how to work this equipment could you possibley research the head a bit?could def. put us down a path we didnt even know about..... interesting stuff i've read about it but nothing more i'd love to see research in this manner on the VR6
p.s. dont they use this technology in the medical field?? 


Medical radiology is a lot different than what I'm talking about, even though the computed tomography is the same. 

_Quote, originally posted by *tallicagolf* »_
Yea it is, I remember once they wanted to do a PET test on me to see what parts of the brain were reacting to certian stimuli(Part of a research study I participated in). Its basically radioactive water that they would inject to trace brain actitivity. I refused the test, I didn't feel like dealing with somthing like that.

Sometimes they use radioative water, and sometimes they use radioactive glucose. It is harmless compared to the other natural radioactivity you put in your body. Ex. Some of the Potassium in bananas is naturally radioactive. Potassium-41. Very common.
Back to the subject. To flow test this and see a time derivative computed tomography (CT), is mostly just knowing the right people. I have done static CTs on objects of interest as of late. Imaging suitcases/enveloped/sea-land containers to see what is inside to see radioactive sources (bombs, etc.) It is neat stuff and has been around for a couple years.
Let's say once a lot of flow bench testing has been done, and you see the numbers you are looking for flow-wise, and the actual output you are seeing from the head don't match, or need to be improved. Can see exactly where turbulent places exist, and either max/min those localized "hotspots". 
This probably sounds far-fetched for most, but it really isn't. 
-Kyle


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*

how about stop talking about the techinical mumbo jumbo and do it???? its great that you guys wanna flex your brains on a forum but..... if you know how to use this equipment do it instead of explaining it......ever hear the expression actions speak louder then words??? all i said was hey i know how this technology works and now you are giving me even more info on how it works or correcting my lamens terms......so short and long more action less typing...if your gonna bring stuff up like this be prepared to do the research.....if i was able to operate one of these machine and had access to one it would have been done already.....sooo if you cant do this research dont talk about it.......


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_how about stop talking about the techinical mumbo jumbo and do it???? its great that you guys wanna flex your brains on a forum but..... if you know how to use this equipment do it instead of explaining it......ever hear the expression actions speak louder then words??? all i said was hey i know how this technology works and now you are giving me even more info on how it works or correcting my lamens terms......so short and long more action less typing...if your gonna bring stuff up like this be prepared to do the research.....if i was able to operate one of these machine and had access to one it would have been done already.....sooo if you cant do this research dont talk about it.......

Wrong attitude dude.
The whole point of these forums is to talk & type. If everything was about doing, it would just be a bunch of DIY posts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_how about stop talking about the techinical mumbo jumbo and do it???? its great that you guys wanna flex your brains on a forum but..... if you know how to use this equipment do it instead of explaining it......ever hear the expression actions speak louder then words??? all i said was hey i know how this technology works and now you are giving me even more info on how it works or correcting my lamens terms......so short and long more action less typing...if your gonna bring stuff up like this be prepared to do the research.....if i was able to operate one of these machine and had access to one it would have been done already.....sooo if you cant do this research dont talk about it.......

im with him. there has been way to much talk and not enough building


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
im with him. there has been way to much talk and not enough building

Like you ever had a fast 12v.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

much of this is past our own abilities unless we have a nice shop to support the research. it gets costly.


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

I don't normally get to quote myself, but now is a great time! I didn't know I was going to get yelled at for not covering something I already covered. So let's recap for those angry typists out there. 
In my above comment, I will paraphrase, "once testing has been done" as in, a close to finished product, then something like time derivative CTs on the runners/head would be applicable. 
Let's apply an analogy.. You wouldn't use a cannonball to shoot a mosquito. You need a more precise instrument. 
So why would you use a precision setup that is going to sense precise flow and mixture densities with time down to the picosecond, when you are porting/polishing/alterring geometry that would render such a precise measurement useless?
So, going on.
I willingly bring expertise to the table in the form of highly technical, precise measuring instruments that has a specific niche which is not ready to be applied YET on this project. When the time comes, then I'll chirp up and apply my:

_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_techinical mumbo jumbo

To those who read my info, and went, hmmm, that might work. Well, thanks!








-Kyle


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

"less talk more action" everyone talks a big game but never backs it up.....when i know how to do somthing i prove myself through doing it not talking about what i can do that's my point....show me data then i'll show respect....if not make his own post about CT scans and let bildons post be about information not about what joe smoe know's 
dont turn this into a pissing fest i'm not trying to flame just trying to push the industry forward.....lets wait and see what data bildon throws down and leave this thread up to there "DATA" i think that's what bildon is getting at with this post a pure hard data on this motor...not the hear say crap that's gone on here for years 

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Wrong attitude dude.
The whole point of these forums is to talk & type. If everything was about doing, it would just be a bunch of DIY posts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

Someone decided for me that I wasn't improving this thread. So I figure I'll post something worthwhile.
Allen head sockets work great on taking off intake manifolds.
How do I know? I tried them, they work great. Here's the data:
Trial # 1 Allen Keys=FAIL; Allen Head Socket=PASS
Trial # 2 Allen Keys=FAIL; Allen Head Socket=PASS
Trial # 3 Allen Keys=FAIL; Allen Head Socket=PASS
Trial # 4 Allen Keys=FAIL; Allen Head Socket=PASS
Hope that helps. 
-Kyle



_Modified by ATL_VR6 at 6:18 PM 12-19-2006_


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*

i gotta agree with CorradoKid here... the words being used in here are huge, and the power being made is still small. big words are great if they make big power, but i havnt seen that yet







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm not going to claim that i've been working towards making more power lately myself(car still isnt running), but it will happen as soon as i get back on my feet financially and keep myself outta legal trouble


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

theres nutting wrong with talking about practices that much of us will never use right now. but for the future mech engineers out there it might be something to catch their ear about.


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

I had at first agreed with CorradoKid... but something occured to me this morning. In alot of cases there are people who may have knowledge that could be used to break through some barriers, but without the equipment, or even the car putting actions to words may be infinately difficult. With that in mind, there had always been a place for research to suggest ideas or procedures to those who are in the position to produce. A place where the minds bet the mettal (pun intended!). 
So bring on the theory and the 3 dollar words, maybe it should be in a different thread, forum, board or other media, but don't hesitate to find a practical application for the stuff that you're learning about!
mine $.02


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*

look at joe, myself, brian, EIP, schimmel etc. etc. etc. we all make a lot of power with our vr6s either f/i or n/a. we all just went out and did what we had to do, made power, ran a number, and called it a day. here is the point i am trying to make. WE DID IT AND DID NOT TALK ABOUT IT. we talked about it after we made the power i should say. this is something for EVERYONE to think about. look at EIP in the early years even when vwvortex was around. they didnt have huge buildup threads like this to make power or to try and figure it out. im sorry but i realy think 275 wheel is not possible. maybe if you lie to the dyno but i can do that and make 400 whp if i wanted. the 12v just doesnt have it in it, and if it does no one will pay the money to get there. start out on the right foot, go 24v. start with 190hp. start one step ahead not backwards. i have had fast 12vs and it just isnt worth it anymore.


----------



## Ezhoracing (Aug 7, 2004)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*

Hi,
Im too tired or lazy to read all 23 pages.
Did a 12v motor ever get built or are we still talking about what you are going to do to it?
Just wondering.
Bernd Arndt


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Ezhoracing)*

>> Did a 12v motor ever get built or are we still talking about what you are going to do to it?
I can see where this is going already so I'll nip it here...
Yes we've built multiple stg 1 motors. The first Stg 2 is sitting here as it has been for months waiting for us to find time to get this project back on track. It's here with a stack of cams and some other bits. Stage 3 requires extensive machinework, testing and tuning that has not begun. We have engines and heads here waiting for that work to begin. This is no BS, it will happen. We just got sidetracked big time. For that I apologize.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Ezhoracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ezhoracing* »_Hi,
Im too tired or lazy to read all 23 pages.
Did a 12v motor ever get built or are we still talking about what you are going to do to it?
Just wondering.
Bernd Arndt









Unfortunately...still talking about it, as you can gather by simply reading this page alone.
Unless the VR can get a de-stroke in order to slow down the incoming air charge so that it can get to MUCH higher RPM's I don't think this will get very far.
Myself on the otherhand found a way to satiate my high RPM cravings and bought a Honda s2000 ap1...now I bounce off of the 9k RPM limiter since it continues to make power up that high with it's short stroke.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

8000 with oem lifter are safe so if it will peak at 8000= "high" hp
Solid lifter head = 9500 with dry sump system


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

the question is will it make power at those rpms?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote »_Unless the VR can get a de-stroke in order to slow down the incoming air charge so that it can get to MUCH higher RPM's I don't think this will get very far.

Weird that you mentioned that. I was wonder a few weeks ago what a VR with a slightly smaller stroke and larger bore would be like. Another thing I was toying around with was different piston shapes, kinda like the Honda NR 750. Unfortunately, it has 8 valves per cylinder, but damn it'd be nice to incorporate that into a VR.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Unfortunately, it has 8 valves per cylinder, but damn it'd be nice to incorporate that into a VR.

The NR piston is essetially 2 cylinders mated together...soemthing that would not be possible with the configuration of the VR6.
I have come up with a method to stroke or destroke the VR6 crank for cheap, but then would need to produce custom rods to accomodate it. I am thinking of taking my 91mm stroke (stock) crank down to around 82mm and boring the cylinder to 85mm (the limit)...an s2000 uses 87mm bore x 84mm stroke, so this should roughly provide the same bore:stroke ratio. This accompanied by my ultra-light valve components should provide interesting results in addition to the porting work I am having down by a high-end engine builder. We shall see.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (KingVR)*

you mean cut down where the rod bolts up and offset it and use a rod bearing from another engine? also using a custom rod with a smaller bearing journal and different hight? we used to do this (and still do) with porsche engines. de-stroking 3.8 to 3.4. it works great. we use a custom chevy rod and small block chevy bearings. kingvr have you gone onto inlinepro's website to see the sk2 stroker kit they make using a k series crank? some food for thought. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_kingvr have you gone onto inlinepro's website to see the sk2 stroker kit they make using a k series crank? some food for thought. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 


destroking a 2.4 to a 2.2 revving mad kseries all dia. somebody say 10k allday?


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

the new f22c isnt as rev happy as its early version the f20c


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (8vbunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *8vbunny* »_the new f22c isnt as rev happy as its early version the f20c 

yes but it has more stroke and makes more power at less rpm hence not having to rev as high.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (8vbunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *8vbunny* »_the new f22c isnt as rev happy as its early version the f20c 

Hence, not being able to take advantage of gearing that the higher RPM can make use of.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

f18a 81mm stroke
f20b 84 mm
f20c 88 mm

any one of those in an h22 block would be nice!








s2k crank/k24 block also nice rev hapy motor.



_Modified by fourthchirpin at 2:34 AM 12-21-2006_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Hence, not being able to take advantage of gearing that the higher RPM can make use of.









Just wait until Nissan's next steel belt CVT. I'm sure they'll be able to hold 400+ ft-lbs soon. Gearing advantage and high rpms will become far less important.
Not shifting gears = blasphemy? Thats what _they_ said about the first horseless carriage...



_Modified by phatvw at 1:06 AM 12-21-2006_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_f18a 81mm stroke
f20b 84 mm
f20c 88 mm

any one of those in an h22 block would be nice!








s2k crank/k24 block also nice rev hapy motor.

Well, the F20c has nothing in common with any other F-series engines. F20c is a CW rotating crank, while the others were CCW rotating. And as far as I know, the only relation that the F20c has with the K-series is the bore spacing and being CW rotating. You could simply put a K20 crank in the K24 block if you wanted a destroke and larger bore.
....and what good does the Nissan CVT do for a non-Nissan engine/vehicle? Having a CVT tranny mated to an extreme high-RPM engine would only be that much more of a benefit...gearing is gearing.


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
yes but it has more stroke and makes more power at less rpm hence not having to rev as high.

yeah the hp and tq difference is evident between the 2 but the f20c seems a little smoother and easier reving. the f22 lost about 1k revs to the f20c


_Modified by 8vbunny at 6:42 AM 12-21-2006_


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (KingVR)*

read again. the cranks are interchangeable and are used between the k and f series engines. they notch a new keyway for the crank pully and thats the only mod they have to do. you realy think inlinepro or any of these other companies actually have cranks made???


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

From what i know, the k series crank will fit in an f series motor, but not the other way around.


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

will the k series crank fit a 12v vr6.......


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_will the k series crank fit a 12v vr6....... 

Would u like fries with that order ?


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

it was sarcasm..... why are we talking about destroking s2k's in bildons 12v vr6 build thread


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

different examples of stroking i suppose. i got ur sarcasm brah don't worry


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

haha allrighty fair enough 
to get slightly back on topic I tend to agree that 275hp is not going to be reached without a new head design which at that point negates using the 12v engine to start with. 
I do however think they will make more power NA than anyone else previously reached, and be able to back it up 100% 
All the people that at bitching about how they should "shut up and build" should realize that that is part of the reason no one has made any breakthroughs in building the 12v vr's no one else has put in this kind of r&d except vw


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Agreed. why not use the 24v head and block?


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

from what i gather by reading all the pages its just a proof or concept kind of thing 12's are cheap plentiful and should perform better than they do


----------



## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Makes sense. If they should perform better than they do, than i am pretty sure vw wouldnt have come up with a 24v head... Does anyone have any flow numbers of a well ported 12v head and a stock 24v head?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (8vbunny)*

Hate to take a step back....but the idea of de-stroking has the effect of slowing down the piston speed, which has a direct effect on the port velocity entering the cylinder. It seems apparent that the 24v head does not "choke off" _as early_ like the 12v.
Therefore, if you were to de-stroke the crank, you are effectively delaying the RPM occurance of when the efficiency comes on tap, as well as when it falls and chokes off. In that respect, it will allow you to carry the torque higher, resulting in a higher hp numer. 
In addition to more power from this, when you offset the stroke with a smaller bearing, you are also reducing the bearing surface area friction. A Ford V8 with this technique gained 40hp at the crank simply by going to a smaller bearing and not even changing the stroke. 
Another benefit of the de-stroke is that since there is less inertia with a smaller crankpin, and is tighter to the crank centerline, you can remove more counterweight mass. Not to mention that the big end of your rod will weigh even less since it is smaller as well.


_Modified by KingVR at 11:29 AM 12-21-2006_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I just read through all of this again, it looks like by seasons end there will be 50 or so 300whp VR6's.








On a serious note, other than Bildon and I think KingVR, who is *actually* working on a project?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
....and what good does the Nissan CVT do for a non-Nissan engine/vehicle? Having a CVT tranny mated to an extreme high-RPM engine would only be that much more of a benefit...gearing is gearing.

No I think you misunderstand. With CVT you don't focus on making an extremely high RPM engine. In fact, you can make an engine with a very small torque band and then just vary the CVT ratio smoothly. It won't feel as fast but the theory suggests that it would be more efficient - less drivetrain loss and perhaps would have more area under the torque vs mph curve. BUt you'd have to test that.
I'm not saying that CVT is the answer, just that there are lots of different ways of using power effectively and it doesn't always have to be making the engine run at a high RPM








Check out the tranny on this VR6. Neat setup eh? http://i34.photobucket.com/alb...4.jpg


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Well, the F20c has nothing in common with any other F-series engines. F20c is a CW rotating crank, while the others were CCW rotating. And as far as I know, the only relation that the F20c has with the K-series is the bore spacing and being CW rotating. You could simply put a K20 crank in the K24 block if you wanted a destroke and larger bore.
....and what good does the Nissan CVT do for a non-Nissan engine/vehicle? Having a CVT tranny mated to an extreme high-RPM engine would only be that much more of a benefit...gearing is gearing.


chris clearly stated the only modification of the crank which is to cut a notch out for the pulley key which is simply on inlinepro's site. it's very simple. there has been many people alredy running this crank with no problems.
for those that are asking why are we talkin about hondas, well simply put people who REALLY WANT power out of those 4cylinder motors do more things to their motors (have more options) then anybody has ever done with a vr6 motor as of yet Hell if bizi can make an 134hp single cam motor have power to reach 9's all motor why is it so hard for anybody to get just build a big power all motor vr6. one word, technology.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I just read through all of this again, it looks like by seasons end there will be 50 or so 300whp VR6's.








On a serious note, other than Bildon and I think KingVR, who is *actually* working on a project?


damn, i can't wait to see who builts that.


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
No I think you misunderstand. With CVT you don't focus on making an extremely high RPM engine. In fact, you can make an engine with a very small torque band and then just vary the CVT ratio smoothly. It won't feel as fast but the theory suggests that it would be more efficient - less drivetrain loss and perhaps would have more area under the torque vs mph curve. BUt you'd have to test that.
*I'm not saying that CVT is the answer*, just that there are lots of different ways of using power effectively and it doesn't always have to be making the engine run at a high RPM








Check out the tranny on this VR6. Neat setup eh? http://i34.photobucket.com/alb...4.jpg


Good, cause CVT is not the answer, and they have nothing to do with this thread. CVTs have nothing but problems, they dont drive well, they dont feel good, and they never have the right "gearing". They always feel like the trans is slipping. I was a service advisor for Audi for a while and I loved CVTs ... because they die a lot, and that meant I got a nice $7500 repair order (4-4500 for the trans)

[rant] On a second note, stop bashing Bildon. Bildon has decided to share the build experience, and has asked for the consumers and NA build veterans input on a project that will in the end be sold to the same people who are giving suggestions. Bildon asked for helpful suggestions not opinions. This has been addressed before and it is why this thread has gone to crap, become way to long for someone to read through, and why Bildon made a thread on thier site to cut out the nonsense. The VR6 12v _Technical _forum is for information sharing not petty whining. If your gonna whine take it to the Car Lounge. [/rant]


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_how about stop talking about the techinical mumbo jumbo and do it???? its great that you guys wanna flex your brains on a forum but..... if you know how to use this equipment do it instead of explaining it......ever hear the expression actions speak louder then words??? all i said was hey i know how this technology works and now you are giving me even more info on how it works or correcting my lamens terms......so short and long more action less typing...if your gonna bring stuff up like this be prepared to do the research.....if i was able to operate one of these machine and had access to one it would have been done already.....sooo if you cant do this research dont talk about it.......

get out of here. seriously. you have just made it _very_ apparent that you know nothing about research and development, and also that your reading comprehension and cognitive ability is poor.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

Merry Christmas scrooge! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bah Humbug!!


----------



## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I just read through all of this again, it looks like by seasons end there will be 50 or so 300whp VR6's.








On a serious note, other than Bildon and I think KingVR, who is *actually* working on a project?

Im pretty sure Bildon is actually building something and not just talking about it, all of the other guys







, ehhhhh not so much


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (1SlowSLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1SlowSLC* »_
Im pretty sure Bildon is actually building something and not just talking about it, all of the other guys







, ehhhhh not so much 

you must not have read his post right.


----------



## mk2vrooom (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

patience is virtue boys...i mean really...bildon is busy as hell...in due time they will have the answer... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
you must not have read his post right. 

No, I got it. I was just elaborating on his thought, without trying to clutter up the thread with nonsense like I am now.I was trying to keep it a subtle little comment....but oh well here it goes...
I think most the people who have been around on this website for awhile know, theres the DO'ers and the BIG TALKERS, although I cant hate on the *few* guys who do have serious allmotor setups and run some good 1/4 miles, but none of this is directed towards them....
It was more directed to the people who spout off all this mumbojumbo, destroking, light valvetrain, blah blah, but still they dont even have a car, let alone any sort of engine being built up....but Im not calling any names out

















_Modified by 1SlowSLC at 11:51 AM 12-25-2006_


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (1SlowSLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1SlowSLC* »_
No, I got it. I was just elaborating on his thought, without trying to clutter up the thread with nonsense like I am now.I was trying to keep it a subtle little comment....but oh well here it goes...
I think most the people who have been around on this website for awhile know, theres the DO'ers and the BIG TALKERS, although I cant hate on the *few* guys who do have serious allmotor setups and run some good 1/4 miles, but none of this is directed towards them....
It was more directed to the people who spout off all this mumbojumbo, destroking, light valvetrain, blah blah, but still they dont even have a car, let alone any sort of engine being built up....but Im not calling any names out
















_Modified by 1SlowSLC at 11:51 AM 12-25-2006_


this is true


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

it's all fun to talk about such but i guess nobody has real money to do such. oh well.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (1SlowSLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1SlowSLC* »_
No, I got it. I was just elaborating on his thought, without trying to clutter up the thread with nonsense like I am now.I was trying to keep it a subtle little comment....but oh well here it goes...
I think most the people who have been around on this website for awhile know, theres the DO'ers and the BIG TALKERS, although I cant hate on the *few* guys who do have serious allmotor setups and run some good 1/4 miles, but none of this is directed towards them....
It was more directed to the people who spout off all this mumbojumbo, destroking, light valvetrain, blah blah, but still they dont even have a car, let alone any sort of engine being built up....but Im not calling any names out
















_Modified by 1SlowSLC at 11:51 AM 12-25-2006_

Hey now, let them flex their brain muscle online. Brainstorming often does result in a few good ideas.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (1SlowSLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1SlowSLC* »_No, I got it. I was just elaborating on his thought, without trying to clutter up the thread with nonsense like I am now.I was trying to keep it a subtle little comment....but oh well here it goes...
I think most the people who have been around on this website for awhile know, theres the DO'ers and the BIG TALKERS, although I cant hate on the *few* guys who do have serious allmotor setups and run some good 1/4 miles, but none of this is directed towards them....
It was more directed to the people who spout off all this mumbojumbo, destroking, light valvetrain, blah blah, but still they dont even have a car, let alone any sort of engine being built up....but Im not calling any names out
















I'm gunna go out on a limb here and figure that your insult IS directed directly towards me, so correct me if I am wrong.
While "NO" I do not currently OWN a VR6, but I do own 4 12v cylinder heads to work with. Bildon has agreed to flow/dyno any head that I put together, so OWNING a VR6 isn't even a need right now. 
But let's think about something for a moment. I am not a business, Bildon is a business. What benefit do I have to put my time and money into a project that Bildon and the rest of the world have to gain from? Bill has been nothing but respectful and professional about his entire concept and with so many people following this thread he has a lot to gain when the project turns into a product. What do I stand to gain? Most likely nothing. So once again I ask the question of WHY are people hating on me simply because I'm not dumping loads of cash and time into someone else's project? Hmmmm...let's get real for a moment, would anyone else do the same? 
I'll continue to contribute information that winning engine builders provide to me...what are YOU building, let alone _contributing_ to this thread? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Modified by KingVR at 9:35 AM 12-26-2006_


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
I'm gunna go out on a limb here and figure that your insult IS directed directly towards me, so correct me if I am wrong.
While "NO" I do not currently OWN a VR6, but I do own 4 12v cylinder heads to work with. Bildon has agreed to flow/dyno any head that I put together, so OWNING a VR6 isn't even a need right now. 
But let's think about something for a moment. I am not a business, Bildon is a business. What benefit do I have to put my time and money into a project that Bildon and the rest of the world have to gain from? Bill has been nothing but respectful and preofessional about his entire concept and with so many people following this thread he has a lot to gain when the project turns into a product. What do I stand to gain? Most likely nothing. So once again I ask the question of WHY are people hating on me simply because I'm not dumping loads of cash and time into someone else's project? Hmmmm...let's get real for a moment, would anyone else do the same? 
I'll continue to contribute information that winning engine builders provide to me...what are YOU building, let alone _contributing_ to this thread? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Very well put KingVR, negativity just brings this thread down....


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
What do I stand to gain? Most likely nothing. 

Way to make yourself sound like the dullest tool in the shed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

King VR... from what i understand, you're saying that untill someone else does something that yields gains, you are going to sit back and do nothing with your 4 cylinder heads. believe it or not, Bildon does not have the only VR6 that matters. This thread and bildon are NOT the only people who are going to break ground on making power with this motor, so trolling and waiting for someone else to do something revolutionary isn't the right attitude to have imo, especially when you seem to know quite a bit of technical data and information, which to be honest, is foreign to me. You guys can TALK tech...ill be at the track with oil funnel intakes, dryer hose, duct tape and a tool box running the numbers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







that's what i enjoy most anyhow


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Ok...perhaps I should continue my statement to avoid further confusion.
I _AM, HAVE BEEN, and will CONTINUE_ to be working on my engine build-up on my own time. Bildon stands to retail engine packages and cylinder head combos as the end result of all of this, and I do not. I get the vibe that because I haven't HAD A CHANCE to prove my theories to everyone yet, that I'm simply a "talking head" and not a DO'er which is far from true. For nothing but cylinder head work and an aluminum FW, while having full interior at 2800 pounds and a 2.1 60' time I ran 13.91 @ 99mph. Not record breaking, but not bad for minimalist mods.
So...perhaps I benefit from respect in the end, and perhaps I could retail a product down the road, but we shall see. My ideas are quite different from the common things that people do, yes...but perhaps that just what this engine needs to get over the barrier.


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (ridefuel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ridefuel* »_
The VR6 12v _Technical _forum is for information sharing not petty whining. If your gonna whine take it to the Car Lounge. [/rant]

I think some people skipped this post...
Noone should be bashing KingVR or Morrado or any of the other guys who have put time and effort into acctual work on a VR weather its the head, block, or full motor.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (ridefuel)*


_Quote »_So once again I ask the question of WHY are people hating on me simply because I'm not dumping loads of cash and time into someone else's project? 

That brings up an interesting question. For those who have broken the 200whp goal, how much did it set you back?


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

im not quite there yet, but it sure takes alot
at the least you're gonna need
intake
exhaust
big cams
valvesprings
chip
bvh-$$$
plus all the little extras like a mk4 hg, pullies, porting/gasketmatching etc


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_That brings up an interesting question. For those who have broken the 200whp goal, how much did it set you back?

I was around the 194whp area, and I recall having about $1500 in parts and machine work to get my +2mm larger valves installed. I didn't even do a spring kit back then. On top of that, the guy who ported my head for some reason felt compelled to not even charge me at all.
As it stands, to have my ULTRA-LW valvetrain setup installed correctly will run me about $800. To port that same head will nearly double that. This is not including the parts provided by Ferrea at no charge.
Grinding the crank the way I want to won't be too pricey, but then making the rods and pistons to accomodate the stroke change will be costly. I'd figure an easy $2000 for that alone.
Anyone interested in donating to research? http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (KingVR)*

too much...


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

prior to my missforutunes i was attempting to break 185whp on stock head/block no cams with a 13.9 pass down the track. but now iam just chilling no time to even think about going fast with this daily.







good luck with everybodys projects.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_too much...

I laughed a little bit at that. I made 197whp at the end of my 2.9's life in my car. Lots spent, never quite got there. 
I think Joe spent a grand total of $12 for his 205whp though.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I laughed a little bit at that. I made 197whp at the end of my 2.9's life in my car. Lots spent, never quite got there. 
I think Joe spent a grand total of $12 for his 205whp though.

However Joe did port his own head and had cams - which the normal user would have to purchase and get done - so not a true comparison there Pablo


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*VR6 Piston Development*

Not sure why our other account is disallowed from posting in our own thread! ...but anyway here is a new part we are developing for the project.








http://forums.bildon.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27
http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 








Bill Sulouff -
Bildon Motorsport - VWRacing products
http://www.bildon.com


----------



## CAUTIOUS (Sep 15, 2004)

*Re: VR6 Piston Development (Bildon Racing)*

any idea what the pistons might go for $$?
and have you tried em out yet?
any hp or torque gains







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i know its a bit soon but iv already have a fairly well built head that flows great (at least for a vr6) and am going to build a block for it, a 
all motor higher compresion but still streetable block.
and btw what air/fuel would ratio would a well flowing 2.9 with 11.5 compression like thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fultimekila (May 15, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

hey i was wondering how valuable this research really is....
i admire the efforts that you and others are putting forth but i wonder if your end result will be worth "it"
by "it" i mean $$$$$$
to break 200 whp N/a most people would probably have to dish out about 3 grand....thats just an estimate...
to break 250 whp... that figuere might be closer to 4 grand for parts and labour...maybe more? correct me if im wrong...
if i had this kinda of money to spend....and was shopping around for a power adder for my vr6, why wouldnt i go the proven route with turbos which can easily make upwards of 250 whp for the same amount if not less? 
most people would argue that FI is unreliable, that N/a is more streatable......maybe the research should be focused on how can we make vr6s more tolerable to FI...
i hope you understand what im saying i dont mean to discourage you, i think what you are trying to do is great.....
im just curious to know how much money is this breakthrough that you are persuing gonna cost in comparison to FI kits that are in the market already.


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (fultimekila)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fultimekila* »_..
to break 250 whp... that figuere might be closer to 4 grand for parts and labour...maybe more? correct me if im wrong...
i


I'd say 10k is a better figure.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (fultimekila)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fultimekila* »_
most people would argue that FI is unreliable, that N/a is more streatable......maybe the research should be focused on how can we make vr6s more tolerable to FI...
i hope you understand what im saying i dont mean to discourage you, i think what you are trying to do is great.....
im just curious to know how much money is this breakthrough that you are persuing gonna cost in comparison to FI kits that are in the market already.


Suppose a turbo kit to get you 275-300whp costs $4000 (think Kinetic). Suppose Bildon's kit to get 250-275whp also cost $4000. Lets give Bildon the benefit of the doubt and assume that even with a lower peak HP number, the area under the torque curves are identical.
Ignoring install complexity, and assuming equal reliability (reliability~= good maintenance and workmanship afterall), which kit would you choose? What if the Bildon kit cost $5000? $6000? $10,000?

Off topic:
Do many folks consider N/A tuning to carry more prestige than F/I tuning? If so, why? Is it because of Forumla-1? Is there a deep-rooted feeling among car enthusiasts that N/A tuning is honorable and F/I is cheating?



_Modified by phatvw at 10:05 PM 12-29-2006_


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

i'm the 50,000th viewer of this thread.
n/a vr's are pretty tight. but, so are boosted ones.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*


_Quote »_Do many folks consider N/A tuning to carry more prestige than F/I tuning? If so, why? Is it because of Forumla-1? Is there a deep-rooted feeling among car enthusiasts that N/A tuning is honorable and F/I is cheating

IMHO, I don't think that it's cheating. However, I think that a well built N/A engine can be more fun than a boosted one. I like the responsiveness of an N/A engine and at the same time I like the power of a turbo VR. I guess that the compromise is supercharging or a smaller turbo, but who wants mid-response or mid-power? 
Also, nothing beats the sound of a VR that isn't force-fed. It all depends on the person. I'm a big fan of twisty backroads. Nothing is worse than getting on boost in the middle of a corner and feeling the front end wash wide because of the huge surge in torque. 
Honestly, if I could get a reliable and streetable 220whp out of a VR without having to go with forced induction, I'd love it! Less hardware bolted on, helps keep weight down, etc. If I had the bones for it, I'd go with a 12:1 .:R32 motor with a side dump exhaust, some beefy cams and some better engine management. That could be some good stuff!


----------



## Oh_My_VR6 (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
Honestly, if I could get a reliable and streetable 220whp out of a VR without having to go with forced induction, I'd love it! Less hardware bolted on, helps keep weight down, etc. If I had the bones for it, I'd go with a 12:1 .:R32 motor with a side dump exhaust, some beefy cams and some better engine management. That could be some good stuff!

My thoughts EXACTLY...
Keep going with it bildon... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (Oh_My_VR6)*

Im a firm believer in anything that makes power. be it turbo, nitrous, supercharger...etc. none of these are cheating. alot of you guys that are talking about cost and making power are missing the point. if you have read the thread, Bildon is building the motor up for an ALL MOTOR class that they will be running in with the VR6 motor. Personally, in the drag racing scene have been spending my time in the all motor classes, meaning no power adders of any kind are allowed. 
this is not to say that some day down the road i may not throw a hefty direct port nitrous kit onto my all motor setup, or all together build a turbo car. i have had 2 different nitrous VR6's in the past, this is just a different phase for me. i am in no way a die hard NA power guy, but at this point in time it has been interesting and relatively quick for me. Dyno numbers arent for me either, i watch this thread to see what will get me down the track quicker and have often times been tempted to opt for 180whp out of a B-series honda motor that would yield me low 12 second passes...but that's a whole nother story.


----------



## obrescia (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

Here you go:
http://atomicmotorsports.net/p....html
thanks!
ATOMIC MOTORSPORTS


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (obrescia)*


_Quote, originally posted by *obrescia* »_Here you go:
http://atomicmotorsports.net/p....html
thanks!
ATOMIC MOTORSPORTS


250whp not found.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (GTIStile)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIStile* »_Personally, in the drag racing scene have been spending my time in the all motor classes

What classes are those????


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

i kinda like the idea of sleeving the motor and squaring it off a bit......







can we dicuss this further??


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_i kinda like the idea of sleeving the motor and squaring it off a bit......







can we dicuss this further??

I think that's how they did the 3.6 VR6, not the sleeved part, but the squaring. The angle is 10.6° IIRC. The reasoning behind it was so it'd free up room for the additional bore without making the engine physically larger.
It would be expensive, but at this point who cares anymore?
89mm pistons (size of the 3.6), with a stock 12V VR crank gets a true 3.3L.


----------



## EVIL6 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

Just to get my mk4 VR6 into the low 190s whp all motor cost me in the in $5k range. This includes BVH, cams, wideband, dyno tuning, upgraded clutch fly wheel, chains, chain guides, chain tensioners, etc, etc. Engine was nearing 90k so we decided to go through the whole engine/tranny drive train, and replace or upgrade any internals worth doing so while the head and tranny were off.


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

that seems to be exactley what VW did.....also on head design why arent we looking to dome it like a hemi???? this is proven for a more complete air/fuel mixture....it would take alot of re-engineering of the valves but i think it would lead to great gains......all the stuff i spit out is proven design on other motors just some idea's since i get flamed for trying to inspire......i've never personally ported a VR6 head would this be possible??? i'm not saying affordable but possible??is there enough material to do so??? or am i just dreaming? just some ideas maybe King can chime in because he turned the lightbulb on in my head


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_that seems to be exactley what VW did.....also on head design why arent we looking to dome it like a hemi???? this is proven for a more complete air/fuel mixture....it would take alot of re-engineering of the valves but i think it would lead to great gains......all the stuff i spit out is proven design on other motors just some idea's since i get flamed for trying to inspire......i've never personally ported a VR6 head would this be possible??? i'm not saying affordable but possible??is there enough material to do so??? or am i just dreaming? just some ideas maybe King can chime in because he turned the lightbulb on in my head

Unfortunately, not possible at all for many reasons. The valves are perfectly verticle, so there's no option to change the angles of the valves to make it like that of a Hemi...there's also coolant passages not far above the deck of the head. Once again, the 24v is technically a Hemi-style chamber...along with all other 4-valve combustion chamber setups including Honda. 
IMO, the location of the "Hemi-Pocket" isn't super critical. In the 12v VR it is in the piston, so there's a lot of room to explore the shaping and location of it.
Its such a dilema...I want to explore to un-touched ideas in my head, but cannot afford to do that right now. And its also at the point where if I can't build the entire setup, why build any of it at all? Where's that person with loads of cash burning holes in his pockets?


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_i kinda like the idea of sleeving the motor and squaring it off a bit......







can we dicuss this further??

I sleeved my block, but most machine shops won't do it because it doesn't look good... they have to cut the bottoms of the sleeve to clearance the rods etc. But, I must admit they work... it fit my 85mm pistons and no more cracked block http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
On the topic of cost efficiency and methods of making power, this endeavor will make a little money for the one that produces the product... and trust, it is a labor of love because the time and $$$ that Bill & all the others put into the 12V development is a goldmine compared to what people will pay for the end result.
Yes, a 24V transplant, nitrous & alt. fuels, turbo, supercharging, etc. may yield higher whp#'s but all have an associated cost (to install and future maintainence) and all methods are a means to an end... more power. Bill & others chose the "all-natural" method either you wait for the end product or choose another option... they all work











_Modified by Morrado at 1:17 PM 1-6-2007_


----------



## 97greenBomber (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_I'd say 10k is a better figure. 

i dont think 10k is a better figure at all. From vaguely reading this post, and combining the information that I remember from reading it in the past; their goal was to keep the engine a 2.8L and just figure out a better method of flow to gain HP (please correct me if im wrong)..
i just spend about a grand on valves, cams, and head work and i might be at the 250 mark...i have an appointment in the upcoming weeks to get the car dyno'd and see exactly where i am.

i am one who can say that if Bildon can find a way to get 300 whp out of a 12V VR; with no cylinder work..props to them http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









---nick


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (97greenBomber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97greenBomber* »_i just spend about a grand on valves, cams, and head work and i might be at the 250 mark

You must be on crack. You won't even hit 200 wheel.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (97greenBomber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97greenBomber* »_i just spend about a grand on valves, cams, and head work and i _*might be at the 250 mark*_...i have an appointment in the upcoming weeks to get the car dyno'd and see exactly where i am.

...$1k on parts and labor, _*AND*_ 250whp?? Let's see that dyno prin-out when you get it.


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

he never said WHP King.


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (97greenBomber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97greenBomber* »_i dont think 10k is a better figure at all. 
i just spend about a grand on valves, cams, and head work and i might be at the 250 mark...
---nick


hahahahahahahahaha


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

yea sorry dude but theres no way you're gonna hit 250 at the crank let alone 250 wheel


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

back on topic...
does anyone have a general idea what the specific stages are going to cost?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
What classes are those????

race for fun class.







and wait till you have leaky valves.......lol


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LowNotSlow* »_back on topic...
does anyone have a general idea what the specific stages are going to cost?

Im not even sure if Bildon is gonna post in here anymore...
check out there forum on there website, they said the vortex thread got out of hand...
thanks everyone for the bashing posted a lil earlier http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*Oil Systems*

>> Im not even sure if Bildon is gonna post in here anymore...
Yah, we're just waiting for somebody at VWVortex to fix our damn accounts!
Both of our normal accounts have been disabled. We can't answer IMs or post under those IDs. Nobody will respond to our emails or IMs from this account. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif








So anyway...we've been working on the oiling system this past week. Cooler kits have been added to our site and the first race pans with windage, scrapers and baffles are being fabbed up now. Yah I Know... it's about time.















We can do any type cooler setup you need for about the same price.
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6
Here's some pics of a setup we did for a customer.
http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/VR6Pump 010.jpg
http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/VR6Pump 059.jpg
http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/Parts 052.jpg
http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/Parts 053.jpg
http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/Parts 112.jpg
http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/VR6oil 116.jpg
PS - a little note about our oil coolers. Our race customers know this, but for you street guys... NEVER EVER rev up a *cold* engine. The viscosity of cold oil is such that you can litterally blow the aluminum tubing apart in a racing oil cooler like we sell. 


_Modified by Bildon Racing at 6:17 PM 1-6-2007_


----------



## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_race for fun class.







and wait till you have leaky valves.......lol

beats driving around with a hole in the oil pan untill the motor seizes...








properly sealing valves are over-rated anyways... i just think of it as a 2-stroke motor... 2 parts fuel, one part oil...then its not so bad







and hey, 13.0 passes with a blue cloud following you isnt so bad is it?

actually ran the car once in a "street performance" class and got my ass waxed after i was told that i couldnt run in the street stock class... went out on another occasion right after i finished the tranny and tried to run the same class again but had problems in qualifying with my hub/wheels and couldnt finish out the day. reality is, i have yet to be competitive in any classes and it doesnt bother me in the least...it's obvious that i dont even know the rule book yet, cuz when i'm told something wrong by the officials, i dont even know to argue it







the car is slow anyways, so running for fun is what i have spent a majority of my track time doing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Oil Systems (Bildon Racing)*

that cooler is very well designed....bump for progress and a great company


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Oil Systems (Corradokcid)*

yeah if i didnt already have a cooler id buy it.. 
bildon, ur catalog on ur website isnt working, i wanted to look at the oil scraper for the vr, im interested in buying one...


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (GTIStile)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIStile* »_
beats driving around with a hole in the oil pan untill the motor seizes...










yup.







believe me it was the best thing that happened to me for the 2006


_Modified by fourthchirpin at 3:52 PM 1-7-2007_


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Oil Systems (Weak VR)*

>> bildon, ur catalog on ur website isnt working
Catalog is fine. I'm guessing you upgraded to IE7 ?
You can thank Bill Gates. IE7 is broken wrt Javascript.
Use ANY other browser until we can figure out how to fix MS's problem.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Oil Systems (Bildon Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Racing* »_>> bildon, ur catalog on ur website isnt working
Catalog is fine. I'm guessing you upgraded to IE7 ?
You can thank Bill Gates. IE7 is broken wrt Javascript.
Use ANY other browser until we can figure out how to fix MS's problem.

Damn it bill gates! grr, i like the ie7 setup, but damn that sux!


----------



## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

any pricing or pics on the oil pans/scrapers/windage trays???


----------



## Cas (Jul 23, 2005)

Is there any difference in the bottom end of OBDI and OBDII motors?

I know the differences in TB, intake manny, ecu, harness, etc... I'm in the middle of making the best of an OBDI motor and an OBDII motor that I have and someone mentioned that the earlier OBDI motors had "forged internals" in the bottom end. Not something I've ever heard and doesn't sound all that realistic but I didn't want to go ditching my OBDI bottom end if it's built stronger than the newer 12v's. Same guy stated they only had the stronger internals on the older ones then dropped it on later 12v's due to cost?
Hopefully someone in here can clarify.. Thanks!
And on topic.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Bildon for doing the research on my favorite VW motor for us all. 


_Modified by Cas at 9:09 PM 1-7-2007_


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (1SlowSLC)*

Unless we find a source for cheap pans we'll have to start with the OEM pans which are over $100! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Add to that the scrapers, baffles, windage tray/screen and labor and you're looking at something around $300. However we will modify your steel pan if you send us one. We're still debating whether we'll do aluminum pans.
>> same guy stated they had the stronger internals on the older ones
Spounds like he's talking about the ABA motors.



_Modified by Bildon Racing at 4:53 PM 1-7-2007_


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Cas)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cas* »_Is there any difference in the bottom end of OBDI and OBDII motors?

I know the differences in TB, intake manny, ecu, harness, etc... I'm in the middle of making the best of an OBDI motor and an OBDII motor that I have and someone mentioned that the earlier OBDI motors had "forged internals" in the bottom end. Not something I've ever heard and doesn't sound all that realistic but I didn't want to go ditching my OBDI bottom end if it's built stronger than the newer 12v's. Same guy stated they only had the stronger internals on the older ones then dropped it on later 12v's due to cost?

_Modified by Cas at 4:45 PM 1-7-2007_

All VR's have forged crankshafts and forged rods with cast pistons. Late ABA motors had cast crankshafts but still used forged rods.


----------



## Cas (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

I knew someone here would clear that up quick... I remember hearing that about the ABA's but had never heard it of the VR's. Thanks fellas..


----------



## obrescia (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

225 @ the crank. Nothing real fancy. Stock bottom end. 91 pump gas. Can one make more(?)....as always - how much you want to $pend?
thanks!
ATOMIC MOTORSPORTS


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*VR6 progress?*

Well VWVortex still has not fixed our other accounts however I am now in contact with Jamie V. so hopefully we can get this resolved and start getting info onto this site for you guys again.
Warning: non-VR6 material below!








On a side note anyone interested in VW Racing should keep their eyes open for the Bildon/GSM GTI that will be at Daytona next week. It will be the first mk5 to be professionally raced in the USA. Our tests at VIR this week went VERY well. Think we have a winner here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif However you never want to comeout of the blocks too fast or people get nervous...








so we're just looking to finish mid pack or better.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: VR6 progress? (Bildon Racing)*

Wait, are you guys running at the Rolex 24? I thought that wasn't until February or so..... but I can literally hear the race from my apartment. If you are running, I may swing in and take a look


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

Yes, car # 113
http://www.grand-am.com/Events...D=191


----------



## RideVR6 (May 28, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Racing)*

Nice, let us know how you do..and keep working on the VR6


----------



## 1991 VR-6 JETTA (Feb 13, 2005)

*Re: (RideVR6)*

bump for more info..


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...30703


----------



## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Racing)*

Any new news on the 12v development?


----------



## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

hey bildonmotorsport hope you guys find the link to getting 250+Hp out of the 12v and i was just reading someone asked why not go 24v and not only the challenge but alot of us Vr6 owners are students and etc and we need someone to help figure out the 12v and help create new direction to go with keeping the 12v .... Hope you guys meet the goal ............good luck


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (G60ed777)*

i still say we cast a whole new head......


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (Flyweight)*

>> Any new news on the 12v development?
You'll start to see something here again next week or the week after.
I promise http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Peter_M5 (Jan 16, 2005)

oh boy can't wait


----------



## BoostFactory (May 27, 2005)

[email protected] will net 250whp. Sent you PM bill http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (BoostFactory)*

We wont be able to respond to your PM to our other accounts because our attempts to get those accounts fixed have been largely ignored. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## BoostFactory (May 27, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Racing* »_We wont be able to respond to your PM to our other accounts because our attempts to get those accounts fixed have been largely ignored. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Check your email in 5 mins... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Racing* »_We wont be able to respond to your PM to our other accounts because our attempts to get those accounts fixed have been largely ignored. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

That blows, considering that you pay to be an advertiser.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_i still say we cast a whole new head......

where are you going to find 40 people to throw down 5k? And I still think 200 grand isn't enough to do it properly....


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*

Has anyone had a set of Mk4 cams baselined to see how VW compensated the cam lobes for unequal length runners? I think there is some potential in have a set of cams ground following the same prinicipal but tuned for a short runner intake to maximize the 5500-6500 rpm range.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_Has anyone had a set of Mk4 cams baselined to see how VW compensated the cam lobes for unequal length runners? I think there is some potential in have a set of cams ground following the same prinicipal but tuned for a short runner intake to maximize the 5500-6500 rpm range.

PM [email protected] for that info. He doesn't have a VR6, but he has a VR5. There has been much debate (and arguing) about the cam's lobe design and how much the compensation works.
He may know better than others.
Once that info is taken care of, there are a few companies that will do custom grinds on the cams. If it works well, I'd love to pick up a set for my MK3 and then attach my homebrew short ram intake that won't run over the valve cover and further heat the incoming air.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_Has anyone had a set of Mk4 cams baselined to see how VW compensated the cam lobes for unequal length runners? I think there is some potential in have a set of cams ground following the same prinicipal but tuned for a short runner intake to maximize the 5500-6500 rpm range.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3062575
MK4 cams and SRI cams will hit the market asap ill testet these ones


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_look at joe, myself, brian, EIP, schimmel etc. etc. etc. we all make a lot of power with our vr6s either f/i or n/a. we all just went out and did what we had to do, made power, ran a number, and called it a day. here is the point i am trying to make. WE DID IT AND DID NOT TALK ABOUT IT. we talked about it after we made the power i should say. this is something for EVERYONE to think about. look at EIP in the early years even when vwvortex was around. they didnt have huge buildup threads like this to make power or to try and figure it out. im sorry but i realy think 275 wheel is not possible. maybe if you lie to the dyno but i can do that and make 400 whp if i wanted. the 12v just doesnt have it in it, and if it does no one will pay the money to get there. start out on the right foot, go 24v. start with 190hp. start one step ahead not backwards. i have had fast 12vs and it just isnt worth it anymore. 

maybe 12v's aren't worth it to you, but f*ck, id rather blow 12v's trying to make more power, that cost around 300-400 bucks for a used long block, then blow those expensive 24v's.
and im starting to think about just going with a 4 cylinder, why ever go turbo on a vr, more parts to blow up, there are people running 11s all day long with 4 cylinder rabbits that you can piece together for less then $5k,why not just go buy a friggin ford v8, h- pipes, some headers, cams, gears and already your running better times then fully built bored n/a vrs. i just love the vr, even though there are other motors out there that can make more power with less money.
on the other hand i agree with this guy, i think you guys are running around in circles with this motor. its fun to be innovative but its all about cost effectiveness. i decided to go a different route personally but i will still be testing manifolds n/a vr6
i think the big valve heads are a waste of money, i am going to give 6mm valve stems and a mild port and polish a try. drop weight on the valve train and its incredible how much extra 1mm thinner on a valve can flow. aren't most hondas running on 5 or 6mm mm valve stems with no out of the ordinary problems?
i have another idea to stagger the injectors to even out the way the fuel is being injected in the runners.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (inopias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inopias* »_maybe 12v's aren't worth it to you, but f*ck, id rather blow 12v's trying to make more power, that cost around 300-400 bucks for a used long block, then blow those expensive 24v's.
and im starting to think about just going with a 4 cylinder, why ever go turbo on a vr, more parts to blow up, there are people running 11s all day long with 4 cylinder rabbits that you can piece together for less then $5k,why not just go buy a friggin ford v8, h- pipes, some headers, cams, gears and already your running better times then fully built bored n/a vrs. i just love the vr, even though there are other motors out there that can make more power with less money.
on the other hand i agree with this guy, i think you guys are running around in circles with this motor. its fun to be innovative but its all about cost effectiveness. i decided to go a different route personally but i will still be testing manifolds n/a vr6
i think the big valve heads are a waste of money, i am going to give 6mm valve stems and a mild port and polish a try. drop weight on the valve train and its incredible how much extra 1mm thinner on a valve can flow. aren't most hondas running on 5 or 6mm mm valve stems with no out of the ordinary problems?
i have another idea to stagger the injectors to even out the way the fuel is being injected in the runners.

I would agree for the most part that big valve heads are a waste of money, but on the other hand there are so many other little things that can be done the no one knows about. Like you said, drop some mm off the valve stems and you will get more flow out of the stock sized valves, add in a slight clean up on the ports and a you've basically gained a good bit of performance for not much more cost than a head rebuild.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (foffa2002)*


_Quote, originally posted by *foffa2002* »_http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3062575
MK4 cams and SRI cams will hit the market asap ill testet these ones

very nice, replied in that thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Racing (Dec 30, 2006)

*Ramping up again...*

>> >> Any new news on the 12v development?
>>You'll start to see something here again the week after. I promise.
OK, we're ready to go... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Cleared off a whole area of the shop to get the VR6's in here...Going to be setting up the flow bench to do some baseline tests on the heads next week. We will post as much flow data as possible about the stock heads before we ever start cutting. 
- Baseline volume tests
- Baseline velocity tests
- With and without guides and valves
Next step will be to baseline the heads with the original valves in place.
- Baseline flow and velocity tests at various valve lifts.
Next will be tests on the std size "hi-perf" valves we've aquired. 
- including tests at very high lifts that some cams will allow.
This will all be followed by the first flow tests on modified heads.
- Oversized valves
- OS valves with OS seats
- Std size valves with OS seats
A comparison of a few "off the shelf" ported heads will then be made.
Then the fun part will begin. The long process of porting/optimising/testing to find the best port shapes. The intake manifold design will follow, as will piston, valvetrain and bottom ends, oiling, etc etc...
That should keep us busy for a while don't you think?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Ramping up again... (Bildon Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Racing* »_>> >> Any new news on the 12v development?
>>You'll start to see something here again the week after. I promise.
OK, we're ready to go... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Cleared off a whole area of the shop to get the VR6's in here...Going to be setting up the flow bench to do some baseline tests on the heads next week. We will post as much flow data as possible about the stock heads before we ever start cutting. 
- Baseline volume tests
- Baseline velocity tests
- With and without guides and valves
Next step will be to baseline the heads with the original valves in place.
- Baseline flow and velocity tests at various valve lifts.
Next will be tests on the std size "hi-perf" valves we've aquired. 
- including tests at very high lifts that some cams will allow.
This will all be followed by the first flow tests on modified heads.
- Oversized valves
- OS valves with OS seats
- Std size valves with OS seats
A comparison of a few "off the shelf" ported heads will then be made.
Then the fun part will begin. The long process of porting/optimising/testing to find the best port shapes. The intake manifold design will follow, as will piston, valvetrain and bottom ends, oiling, etc etc...
That should keep us busy for a while don't you think? 


I really wanna see this http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
kick out em 2.0T FSI and get some work done on your 6 banger















Best post ever on vortex!


----------



## 93vr6corrado18inc (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: Ramping up again... ([email protected])*

i was readin threw this post and someone had mentioned to make 2 intakes like the lambos have.. i cant find the pic he drew up. but i think it might actualy help improve some flow. but like he stated we would have to mod the hood.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Ramping up again... (Bildon Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Racing* »_
OK, we're ready to go... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Awesome......can't wait to see what you guys find out


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Ramping up again... (93vr6corrado18inc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *93vr6corrado18inc* »_i was readin threw this post and someone had mentioned to make 2 intakes like the lambos have.. i cant find the pic he drew up. but i think it might actualy help improve some flow. but like he stated we would have to mod the hood.

That has already been discussed... The reason for having 2 separate plenumns isn't because they flow more air, but rather that it heps compensate for the unequal length intake runners in the head.
Nonetheless, the head itslef is the first and most logical choice for Bildon to analyze and improve upon.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Bildon Motorsport account is back...*

Well well well... we got our account reactivated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks Jamie.
OK now we can fire this 12v madness up again. Did we loose anybody?








So how about less talk and more work , right? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif right.

>> because i would have no clue how much to retard/advance each cam.
By the end of this process you'll know. And we wont even charge you tuition .


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Bildon Motorsport account is back... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Well well well... we got our account reactivated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks Jamie.
OK now we can fire this 12v madness up again. Did we loose anybody?








So how about less talk and more work , right? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif right.

>> because i would have no clue how much to retard/advance each cam.
By the end of this process you'll know. And we wont even charge you tuition .


Do you produce any single chain adjustable cam gears ?
Right now i run manipulated ones with a couple of degrees advanced.
But its a secret








But i would really like to se you fiddle with overall cam timing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bildon Motorsport account is back... ([email protected])*

Fredrik,
We don't have any single chain gears. But for this project we may have to come up with one.
>> But i would really like to see you fiddle with overall cam timing
perhaps the poor mans asymmetric cam








BTW, anyone who sent us IMs to this account in the last TWO months, please resend as we never could see them while the account was deactivated. 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 11:03 AM 2-9-2007_


----------



## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: Bildon Motorsport account is back... (Bildon Motorsport)*

subscribed.
Can't wait to see some actual raw technical data for a change, lets waken up this old platform and flex some of that 2.8L muscle
go bildon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Peter_M5 (Jan 16, 2005)

I'd like to see the results of the air flow testing on the head and the relation to cam lift. I want to know how much lift still creates horsepower in the VR6.
Really eager to see if a BVH flows better then stock sized valves as well.
Are you guys going to try different port/runner shapes in the head?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Peter_M5)*

>> Are you guys going to try different port/runner shapes in the head?
Absolutely. That is where all the magic is. But we going to do everything listed above first. To baseline.


----------



## EnIgMa '06 (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (Peter_M5)*

This may be a stupid question, but I read in a different thread about the differences between mk4 12v cams and earlier 12v cams. From what I read, on a mk4, the cams themselves compensate for the unequal length between the front and rear cylinder banks as opposed to the manifold doing so on a mk3 or earlier car. With this is mind, could someone run mk4 cams (for the compensation) with a short runner intake, without the negative effects that a short runner manifold generally has?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (EnIgMa '06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EnIgMa ’06* »_This may be a stupid question, but I read in a different thread about the differences between mk4 12v cams and earlier 12v cams. From what I read, on a mk4, the cams themselves compensate for the unequal length between the front and rear cylinder banks as opposed to the manifold doing so on a mk3 or earlier car. With this is mind, could someone run mk4 cams (for the compensation) with a short runner intake, without the negative effects that a short runner manifold generally has?

I run MK4 cams with short runner http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Easy install on your mk3


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Problem is many performance cams were not ground with the mk4 manifold in mind.
That is actually some info I have yet to put together. Does anyone have a list of mk3 VR6 performance cams vs mk4 performance cams?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

AFAIK, the cams are directly carried over.


----------



## EnIgMa '06 (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

So, is it possible to make custom high performance cams with runner compensation?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (EnIgMa '06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EnIgMa ’06* »_So, is it possible to make custom high performance cams with runner compensation?

Totally possible, but nobody makes them. There is no market for them since MkIV owners are apt to buy anything with shiny colours even f they aren't designed for their cars. And the majority of the MkIII short-runner folks believe that the regular performance cams without compensation are "good enough"
Hopefully My Foffa2002 will change all that and we'll get some really good performance and consistency out of the VR6 soon


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (EnIgMa '06)*

There's a few places that will do custom regrinds. I think one of the companies that come up in most posts is Dougherty Racing. Their website is http://www.drcamshafts.com. They're pretty common with the Porsche crew.


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_There's a few places that will do custom regrinds. I think one of the companies that come up in most posts is Dougherty Racing. Their website is http://www.drcamshafts.com. They're pretty common with the Porsche crew.

They are pretty local to me. never bought from him, but exchanged some emails and he seems like a good/knowledgeable guy.
-AJ


----------



## mk3_vdub (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: (Zoso)*

techtonics will do custom grinds for you also... you just have to call them...


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (mk3_vdub)*

Ah damn! How could I forget TT???


----------



## FlyGTI84 (May 1, 2000)

*Re:*

Bill~
Here is a site you might enjoy, and it could help you out a lot
http://www.eng-tips.com/
Also check this out, it has more calculations than you could ever want, but may help
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/index.html

And don't forget about reversion......I can hear it in my VR everyday, and I know it's killin' it. Arnie Loyning got 15 Hp on an Atlantic engine just by changing where the air scoop was. I heard from one of the guys there (when I was at Ivey) that they were doing some testing on the dyno and the stand that the air scoop was resting on fell over and the air scoop moved a bit, and the HP went up. He played with that a bit and eventually found 15 HP, all of which can be attributed to wave tuning.
HTH
P.S. I cannot find those ex valve seat profiles at all. They must have been something that Ivey made himself. I will call you tomorrow and get your fax number, and attempt to draw the profile on a sheet and send it to you.


_Modified by FlyGTI84 at 11:53 PM 2-13-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (FlyGTI84)*

Chris, Thanks. Been a member at Eng-Tips for years! Great forum!
And thanks for the other link. I'd been there before but I think the guys ears scared me away








>> I will call you tomorrow and get your fax number, and attempt to draw the profile on a sheet and send it to you.
You have an IM http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Update: 
We've been talking to a well respected engine components maker about our project. We're in the final stages of a deal which will include us using their products on ONE of the engines and writing an article about the project for one of the Euro car mags. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
So this project will be getting some publicity outside the Vortex as well.
Note: While we are going to be doing the one engine for media publicity that in no way means we are going to limit our research of components to that one company. We will continue to seek out the components that offer bets value and best performance, and we will post our findings online.
We're still holding true to our intentions to make this project an unbiased and independent examination of the 12v's true potential.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## RideVR6 (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: (jamesn67)*

Niceeee


----------



## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

What about casting a completely new head. Chevy and Ford guys have been doing this for decades now with very good results. Check out Air Flow Research heads and what they can do with 5.7L of ancient technology. Impressive. Especially for around $1300. 
I know I am comparing apples and oranges. Nevertheless, the prospect of getting a big name head company involved may produce very impressive results indeed. 
The VR6 market is quite a bit smaller than the Chevy or Ford however its not exactly small either. 
Just an idea...


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Flyweight)*

>> What about casting a completely new head.
There is already a much better VR6 head out there. It's called the 24v and it's designed and manufactured by VW. It makes great power.
So lets stay focused on reality.... mods to make power from the cheap and plentiful 12v engines.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Have you seen these articles about high-velocity intake porting?
They go against the assumption that bigger is better.
http://mototuneusa.com/think_f...g.htm
http://mototuneusa.com/homework.htm
http://mototuneusa.com/the_2007_superbike.htm


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Yes, that info has been around for about 5 years.
"They go against the assumption that bigger is better."
Who's assumption?








There's some good info here if you're surfing...
http://www.n2performance.com/



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:55 AM 2-22-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_Have you seen these articles about high-velocity intake porting?
They go against the assumption that bigger is better.
http://mototuneusa.com/think_f...g.htm
http://mototuneusa.com/homework.htm
http://mototuneusa.com/the_2007_superbike.htm


Ouch! Worst website design ever! But nice pics. I don't like the thought of epoxy in the intake. What if it gets brittle and gets sucked into the combustion chamber? I guess he kinda addressed that but I still don't like it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

>> I don't like the thought of epoxy in the intake.
It's a common practice. And there are compounds that you couldn't remove except by melting the aluminum away around it.
Works wonders by the way in the 8v heads http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
There is already a much better VR6 head out there. It's called the 24v and it's designed and manufactured by VW. It makes great power.


..........but is not even remotely bolt-on to a 12v. The idea of a better head casting for the 12v is not THAT crazy....sure we don't have the volume of the small-block Chevy world but one company could definitely get the lock on the market if they stepped up first. 
Hey, VW guys are willing to pay for $1300 Schrick VGI manifolds that give you 10 lb ft of low-end torque back, I'm sure they'll pay 2 grand for an AFR-type head that actually makes a real difference on the top end....if it indeed makes a difference.
Whatever, just thinking out loud, I like everyone else am really lookign forward to your findings.


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

i totally agree there......you say that there is a superior flowing head the 24v but that isnt a solution for us people with 12v blocks.....recasting new heads has been done in american hot rods for years.....i just think modifying a head that really doesnt have great flow characteristics is kinda like putting a bandaid on a axe wound.....and the company that realizes the market for casting a new head will def. make a ton of dough.......there are a hell of alot more 12'v out there then 24v's.........i know the simple power solution is swapping a 24v into my car..... but i like the primitive VR6......i dont like DBW car's they take the fun out of driving i think......i just want the most power out of my old 12v and if that meant spending 2500bucks on a brand new casted head i would do that without blinking


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

>> i just want the most power... and if that meant spending 2500.. i would do that without blinking
What is the current state of tune of your VR6? Do you have ITBs and a full port with big valves? 3L block?


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I highly doubt that recasted heads would cost anything close to 2500...a good bvh is almost 2000...bildon has the right idea lets just wait and see what they come up with
I would like to hear a litte more about what kind of gains are possible w/ reprograming the factory ecu like it was motec


_Modified by LowNotSlow at 10:36 PM 2-25-2007_


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

Correct me if I'm wrong ... but wouldn't a recasted head intended for better NA flow be of benefit for forced induction setups as well... I am also sceptical that it'd only be 2500 .. just the shrick manifolds that do not involve half the engineering an entire cylinder head would are 2kish... modified 12v heads (BVH) come close to 2000 pretty easily... and the R&D to do a fully custom head ... while hugely beneficial I'm certain would be prohibitively expensive ... 
however, if someone were to go ahead and do the work sell it for what BVH's or VMS/Schrick manifolds etc sell for, I'm positive they'd recoop their money 10 fold... 

This is rather off base from what Bildon is wanting to do initially thought ... they're wanting to go through and find out where the disconnect is actually happening between the displacement vs output of the VR6 compared to other engines it's size. The idea, as I understand it, is to completely map the progress to be able to definitively say ... modification A really doesn't do anything ... howeer, modification B can be of huge benefit if you've done or are going to do ... whatever... once they've completely exploited everything that can with the stock block ... THEN they may start to explore custom heads and what not... 
at least that the way I've heard it...


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

but you cant make a orange into a apple....plain and simple the general design of the head was design to save space not make power


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

That's why the 24v was designed. Er, to still fit and make more power, better emissions, etc. Believe me a better casting is not the answer until you've completely exhausted the stock head. Honestly I don't think anyone's gotten there yet.


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

i have a BVH...i spent 1600bucks on this head without cams ...the only thing not touched on my motor is the bottom end.......the car traps 98-99 mph and its a corrado.....and when i say 2500bucks i mean for the raw casting of a block mass produced....
i know what its like to spend alot of money and feel minimal gains......i rather spend ridiculous amounts of money and feel a real gain even if that means ditching our OEM heads......i just feel bildon you havent really done any work yet as far as research and you already think you know the answer that all these other shops out here dont???? do you have mystical powers that enables you to create miracles???
i say we need a superior flowing head then you say get a 24v??? then why not reseatch the 24v and ditch the 12v??? kinda contradicting yourself there i'm not trying to bash bildon by anymeans i just think being open minded even to radical idea's such as casting a new head is what the auto industry is all about.....sooo why research somthing if you know there is already a superior choice? the 24v??
its like researching a cure for cancer when there's already a cure??? 
i'm not hating by all means i just want a really good product to be release all this hype for months and not even one ported head??? it takes a day to port one head....so that basically tells me you havent even really worked a day on this project and are making big claims
my 2cents hate it if you want or accept it and make some HP


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i agree there......just more action less typing......i could talk for days about how i'm going to make power.....or i could make power and not talk at all and let the results do the talking....with that being said bildon prove me wrong design somthing that hasnt even been touched on our heads.....


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_do you have mystical powers that enables you to create miracles???

Yes. 
Seriously though, the redesigned/recasted head has been talked about for months in these 27 pages. It just doesn't look like it's going to happen. However, if you hire an engineer and a can locate a shop that will make new heads for less than $1500, then I'm all for it.
Honestly, $2500 is way too much for a head, unless it's making BIG power. Dig around a bit and you can get 24V engines for that much cash.
I still think it'd be cool to take the Passat/Audi 30V heads, make a sandwich plate between the head and the block to reroute oil/coolant passages and bolt anchors. But it'd probably leak like a sieve with all of the gaskets. The intake/exhaust manifolds would look horrible and be nearly impossible to route.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_I still think it'd be cool to take the Passat/Audi 30V heads, make a sandwich plate between the head and the block to reroute oil/coolant passages and bolt anchors. But it'd probably leak like a sieve with all of the gaskets. The intake/exhaust manifolds would look horrible and be nearly impossible to route.

Do the 30v even have the same head bolt pattern?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan Sickles* »_
Do the 30v even have the same head bolt pattern?

Does the 30v even come in a 15° V????
I thought it was a 90° V based on the old 90° Audi V8 engine...


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

yes, the 30v v6 is a standard "V" ... the point was that while 24v's is pretty cool ... 30v would be even better and quite honestly is just as workable an option as putting a 24v head onto the 12v block... neither one wis at all possible.
I regards to a custom cast head ... I would imagine that someone wouldn't offer one unless it were provide huge gains or muchly improved benefits.
for what's it worth I'm not on the "get a 24v" bandwagon at all. It's a cool engine and all... but 12v engines are pretty readily available... I can't quite say a dime a dozen though.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*

>> This is rather off base from what Bildon is wanting to do initially though ... 
Extreme, I see you have read the previous posts carefully. Thank you. 
... a few pages back it was mentioned that we have recently made room for the new flow bench and brought some of the VR6 components in for testing. I'm sorry that we are behind where we said we would be, but as explained many times, this project is unfortunately a LOW priority. But the bench is up and there is a stack of VR6 heads next to it... That's better than last month.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote »_Does the 30v even come in a 15° V????
I thought it was a 90° V based on the old 90° Audi V8 engine...


It is. It's a REALLY farfetched idea. Would be cool if it was possible to do it with the sandwich adapter. It would work (in theory) but it'd take so much custom work that it'd be ridiculous in cost. Still, it'd be awesome.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_It is. It's a REALLY farfetched idea. Would be cool if it was possible to do it with the sandwich adapter. It would work (in theory) but it'd take so much custom work that it'd be ridiculous in cost. Still, it'd be awesome.

One head only has valves for 3 cylinders. There is no amount of modification that would make that work.








The 30V V6 is a traditional V engine. I have one in my Passat!


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

yea the 30v isnt even a option.....wouldnt work plain and simple


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
It is. It's a REALLY farfetched idea. Would be cool if it was possible to do it with the sandwich adapter. It would work (in theory) but it'd take so much custom work that it'd be ridiculous in cost. Still, it'd be awesome.


What about a sandwich plate for the 24V? Is that a realistic option.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (detailer03)*


_Quote, originally posted by *detailer03* »_What about a sandwich plate for the 24V? Is that a realistic option.

Sigh







...No
It's easier (and makes way more sense) to just use the 24V block if you really want the 24V head.
Let's keep this on track and realistic folks


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

Somebody is flowing cylinder heads from today through the weekend.


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

YES... Thats what I like to hear. Cant wait to hear some results


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_i have a BVH...i spent 1600bucks on this head without cams ...the only thing not touched on my motor is the bottom end.......the car traps 98-99 mph and its a corrado.....

i trap 102mph w/ no BVH but i have 268 cams in my ported head, full weight minus spare in my '93.

the big bottle neck is right before the bowl and the coolant passageways, head bolts holes and spark plug holes are restricting us from enlarging certain areas of the head. 
i'm currently working on doing a huge port in that area right before the bowl. i am CC'ing each port (long vs. long and short vs. short) to get equal volume and will be making a short runner w/ velocity stacks that will make every runner equal length/volume. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

>> the big bottle neck is right before the bowl ... the .... are restricting us from enlarging certain areas of the head.
>> i'm currently working on doing a huge port in that area 
Got around those restrictions how, ... by welding? 
What means are you using to measure your gains and losses as you port?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_i trap 102mph w/ no BVH but i have 268 cams in my ported head, full weight minus spare in my '93.

What kind of 60' time went along with that trap? street tires?
Bill, looking forward to seeing your cylinder head progress.
Here's to keeping the project moving along. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Peter_M5 (Jan 16, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> the big bottle neck is right before the bowl ... the .... are restricting us from enlarging certain areas of the head.
>> i'm currently working on doing a huge port in that area 
Got around those restrictions how, ... by welding? 
What means are you using to measure your gains and losses as you port?

high velocity ports vs. low velocity ports - which makes more power
Guess what enlarging the ports before the bowl does?
I think you should watch and listen to see what Bildon does.
Bildon's head work might be quite different then what the average novice porter would do. I am happily waiting to see what they come up with.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Peter_M5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter_M5* »_Bildon's head work might be quite different then what the average novice porter would do. I am happily waiting to see what they come up with.


Been waiting since June for some answers, starting to get itchy...


----------



## GL95x (Mar 22, 2003)

_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
Been waiting since June for some answers, starting to get itchy...









agreed, i've been following this for months, can't wait to read the results








Steve


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (GL95x)*

Since we're waiting, perhaps we can enjoy watching an entertaining video of a W16 being cut from a solid block of aluminum on a 5-axis CNC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU32Q6QXtWQ
...someone should call those guys. hehehe


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Peter_M5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter_M5* »_

high velocity ports vs. low velocity ports - which makes more power
Guess what enlarging the ports before the bowl does?
I think you should watch and listen to see what Bildon does.
Bildon's head work might be quite different then what the average novice porter would do. I am happily waiting to see what they come up with.



we've ported more cylinder heads than you could ever imagine, mostly for air cooled bugs, 8v's and 16v's. only have messed with a couple 12v's, just polishing the ports and blending the bowls woke up my VR so much it was unbelievable. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i hate how everyone just assumes everyone else is some novice to anything. its basically the reason i havent even voiced my opinion in this thread the entire time is because people just shoot down everyone else. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
i'm not going to be porting the entire port that way. just enlarging that bottleneck. that is what is killing the flow. how would you like to be that air, flying into that port at mach speed, then bottlenecking up and being forced to do a 90 degree turn into the cylinder.








we're working on access to a flowbench but until that time comes around we're just going to be doing a couple head swaps and hitting up the dyno. no changes to anything except for the head...stock head vs. blended bowls. vs. the enlarged bottleneck and enlarged bowl.
bildon is very very busy as it seems and this project could be sped up with some extra information available to them. i like to see results quickly, i don't like sitting around and waiting. we've got spare time and spare heads to play with...the only thing we don't have at the moment is a bad cyl. head that we can cut apart.
my 60 ft. was 2.1 and my time was 14.06 on street tires. (screw street tires, slicks or bust!)


_Modified by JRaptor at 9:34 PM 3-2-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote »_...someone should call those guys. hehehe

Wow... That's one of the few videos that I've seen on Youtube that I haven't fast forwarded through parts.


----------



## Clownracer v2 (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

watched topics....bildon u guys are doing great work!


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_
bildon is very very busy as it seems and this project could be sped up with some extra information available to them. 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to another person/company willing to help Bildon with this project.


----------



## vr604 (Feb 19, 2003)

http://www.wpctreatment.com/index.htm
Anybody seen this before? It was found in another thread. Probably a little expensine, but if you want 275hp....


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (vr604)*

Update. We spent a lot of time working on the new flowbench this weekend.
I'm not going to post any #s here until we get everything calibrated properly because I dont want people who dont read carefully to start commenting on the #s.







However we do expect to have most of the baseline info compiled shortly and we will start publishing information later this week.
The reason this is different than most flow testing systems is because we are utilizing a full data acquisition package on the bench that will allow us to capture more data, faster and more accurately. Like most shops our old bench was just a manometer bench but this is the digital age... with our new toys comes a bit of a learning curve. It's taking some time... Hang in there...


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I can't wait http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

i hate to say it, but i was so upset when i found out that the 12v is restricted with all motor power, so i went a different dirrection with my car.. sorry guys, ill return to the all motor world once i see some people with high numbers
until then, keep up the good work bildon!


----------



## BonTechnik (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_just polishing the ports and blending the bowls woke up my VR so much it was unbelievable. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


True that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

i was examining a VR head last night and i noticed that on some, not all, of the bowls, there is a lot of metal there that could be used to enlarge them. perhaps using that special epoxy to make the ports evenly smaller for high velocity with a large bowl so it can ram a lot of air in there.
any thoughts on this?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

I was wondering if you guys can do a little research for us? If you could IM or email us links to locations where you have found dyno and or flow data on other 3L motors we'd appreciate it. Don't clog up this forum with those links though.
We want to take a look at some dyno or flow data from other 3L engines to do a bit of comparison ... but it would save us time if some of you already had links etc....









Thanks,
Bill


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I've actually never messed with a 3.0L....well I take that back, I did an oil change on one.








I've always assumed that getting enough air into the engine on the 2.8 was kind of an issue and that going to 3.0 wasn't really worth it, of course, unless you were forcing the air in there.
I'll look around though and see what I can find.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

The flow bench software issues have been fixed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I am finally gonna post in here to make it easier to find next time. I hope that Bilodon can reach their dreams and http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif to the naysayers







!!

Garth


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Schrick Manifold*

Anyone have a VR6 (Schrick/VWM/Oett. etc) manifold here??? I have questions. 
if you have one, do the runners unbolt from the plenum on the one you have?? 








Yah I know, we sell these but we dont stock them. And the last one through here I never saw. Our shipping dept. would have sent it out as soon as it came in. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Can't justify the $$$$ to buyone just to look at at.









Edit... NM, a little more research has revealed....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3106587
Question answered...



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:46 PM 3-10-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Schrick Manifold (Bildon Motorsport)*

Yes the runners unbolt from the plenum.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Schrick Manifold (jamesn67)*

OK so now the next question is who wants to send us the middle part to flow test?







This part:


----------



## BIGNICKSGTIS420 (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: Schrick Manifold (Bildon Motorsport)*

You guys rock http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif keep um coming


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: Schrick Manifold (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_OK so now the next question is who wants to send us the middle part to flow test?







This part: 









That I might be able to get my hands on, I'll see if it is still available.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Daytona on Speed*

Bildon GTI @ Daytona on SPEED in 1/2 hour.... set your Tivos


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (Bildon Motorsport)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif tivo'd


----------



## de.vr6 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (maxslug)*

Ok, sorry if this has already been brought up (I havent read ALL 29 pages), but have you looked into throttle bodies? If you think about it, no matter how well the head flows it still can only take in as much air as the throttle body can let in. I dont know, maybe the stock throttle body isnt that restricting, maybe a 2.8L cant suck in more air than the throttle body can efficiently flow


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (de.vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *de.vr6* »_ maybe the stock throttle body isnt that restricting

TB isn't the biggest bottleneck, but porting it out or boring it helps a little bit.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (need_a_VR6)*

The throttle bore on the US spec Corrado is 64mm. 
DTM 4L engines are restricted to 56mm (via 2x28mm) and make more than 450HP.
F3 Engines are restricted to Ø 26 mm (1") and make ~200 horsepower between 5000 and 7400 rpm.
The restriction is in the long ports and as mentioned WAY back is due to the design of the head which has an asymmetry that has to be dealt with. The problem is not simply one of restriction. The VR6 is 2 engines in 1. Not many tune it that way however.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
The restriction is in the long ports and as mentioned WAY back is due to the design of the head which has an asymmetry that has to be dealt with. The problem is not simply one of restriction. The VR6 is 2 engines in 1. Not many tune it that way however.


THis is good stuff.....implies that the only hope for symmetry really lies in the design/length of the intake manifold runners no? Also optimizing the cam profiles to account for any difference that the manifold doesn't address. Are you guys thinking along these lines or am I off track?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (Mr Black)*

Leaving the cams alone, at least at first and making the manifold/head combos flow well and evenly is a good start.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (need_a_VR6)*

>> and evenly is a good start.
I think we'll be scrapping the idea of getting the long ports to flow the same as the short ports. Unless there is a lot more metal in the walls than appears to be. Notice I didnt say we HAVE given up.. I'm just saying it's looking a lot more like we'll be building two 3 cyl engines that just happen to reside in the same head and block. If the firing order were Long/Short/L/S/L/S instead of L/L/L/S/S/S I'd be far less concerned.
This is going to be very interesting.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Daytona on Speed (Bildon Motorsport)*

Interesting. In my mind you could go about this in two ways..
Use the actual port flows to determine cam profile on a long/short basis. High duration/lift for the longer ones and shorter/lower for the short ones to match actual flow between them at all conditions. So you'd end up with like a 268deg short port lobe and a larger like 276 long port lobe. The one problem there is that you'd actually want different CR front and back to compensate for the loss in dynamic comp by the bigger rear lobes and that gets you pretty far into the weeds. Overlap would be the same on both banks due to the semi symmetrical nature of it. You could leave the comp alone and throw more timing in the back to compensate but that seems a little backassward.
Or you can just call 'f it' and just make the front three breathe *really* well and have the back ones along for the ride.








Though I think there's more room in the long ports then you think if you weld/epoxy the inside of the cooling jackets.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 12v engineering project*

>> High duration/lift for the longer ones and shorter/lower for the short ones 
Exactly so does anyone understand why Foffa is doing it backwards? I asked him and did not get an answer. Probably just a communication issue.
>> one problem there is that you'd actually want different CR front and back to compensate for the loss in dynamic comp by the bigger rear lobes
We'll have to wait on this one before I make that same assumption because I can see it going either way. With cylinder filling, cam profile and piston/valve design we have a few avenues to explore.
>> Overlap would be the same on both banks due to the semi 
I'm not ready to make that assumption. Test data will be our 'god'








>> Or you can just make the front three breathe *really* well and have the back ones along for the ride.
Yah but that will cause other serious problems. Remember all Shorts fire inline and THEN all the Longs. I think if one bank made 150HP and the other bank is doing 95HP can you imagine what we'd see every 3rd rotation? 
That is my main concern about the twin engine theory. I'm doing some research into what Nascar did when they were trying to fool the tech inspectors. Evidently they used to only pull one head and it was always the same head. The engine builders wound up building higher output motors by cheatingon one bank until Nascar caught on. If anyone else can find any info on these asymmetrical tricks please post here.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hi
More duration = you can use shorter runner for same requested rpm
RPM = 6500
Speed of sound = 370
Reflective Value = 3
Intake diameter = 34
Camshaft duration = 240


Intake lenght = 35,96

RPM = 6500	rpm
Speed of sound = 370	m/s
Reflective Value = 3	
Intake diameter = 34	mm
Camshaft duration = 280	º


Intake lenght = 32,68	cm
And higher lift will lower gas speed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I use high duration on front cam intake valve to compensate for the short runner on the MK4.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (foffa2002)*

And for tuning 2 banks.
wery good equipment for measuring cylinderpressure with sparkplugg adapter exist.
And it will tell you the "hp" for every cylinder.
So use lambda + egt + cylinderpressure sensor and you will have an uber VR6.
One drawback is that the equipment cost ~150000$


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (foffa2002)*

Foffa, You sent me the mk4 OEM Rear cam specs. Do you have the mk4 Front OEM specs?
>> One drawback is that the equipment cost ~150000$
No it doesn't








This is a Saturn block our machinist did for Delphi. At the top of the block you can see the transducer attachments that were machined into it.








But the problem is not measuring, we've got data out the wazoo.







The problem is developing an engine that wont tear itself apart.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (foffa2002)*


_Quote, originally posted by *foffa2002* »_I use high duration on front cam intake valve to compensate for the short runner on the MK4.

That sounds backwards though. Higher lift = more flow until the choke point. Therefore I'd think you'd want higher rear bank intake lift, and lower front lift to even out the flows. Bill, comments>?
As for the twin engine theory, I agree the engine basically will be accelerating on one crank rotation and decelrating on the other with every cam rotation. I'm not sure at what level of difference you'll actually be damaging to equipment though. Interesting thoughts though. Time to dig up Smokey, I bet he'd know how to do it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (need_a_VR6)*

>> Time to dig up Smokey, I bet he'd know how to do it.
True








I want Foffa to chime in here before I spout off about my thoughts on duration vs runner length.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*

I believe the OEM MkIV cam has these specs:
Front bank:
intake/exhaust
245°,10.7mm/240°,10.2mm

Rear bank:
intake/exhaust
240°,10.2mm/245°,10.7mm

I believe one of Foffa's proposed cams was something like:
Front bank:
intake/exhaust
260°,11.3mm/254°,10.9mm
Rear bank:
intake/exhaust
254°,10.9mm/260°,11.3mm

Hmm but maybe that is reversed...



_Modified by phatvw at 11:04 AM 3-12-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (phatvw)*

Ah, The light went on... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Will explain later.
PS - The pitot (velocity) tubes for the new bench are finally on the way.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 11:21 AM 3-12-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Ah, The light went on... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Will explain later.


As Foffa said, we want both front and rear banks to produce the same power over the RPM band. Therefore the harmonic tuning has to be the same.
In the front bank intake valve, you have to have a longer duration to match the shorter runner length compared to the rear bank.
Same goes for exhaust - you need to have a longer duration on rear bank exhaust to match the shorter exhaust runner length.

For lift, I believe we can refer to the Bernoulli principle where increasing the space in the channel decreases the air velocity. So for the front bank intake, we need more lift to decrease the velocity so that it matches the rear bank better. This should help tune the waves (pulses) seen in both the intake manifold plenum and exhaust manifold such that reversion and all that kind of stuff is minimized at the target RPM. You want the pulses to be evenly spaced rather than grouped together.
|___|___|___|___|___|___ good pulse spacing as seen by plenum
|__|____|__|____|__|____ bad pulse spacing
Do I have that right?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (phatvw)*

>> Do I have that right?
Yah you're on track with the intake pulses but I'm not sure about the lift/velocity relationship. I need to think this over when I have some time.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*

doesnt restricting the air flow, speed it up as well? if so, is there a way to incorporate that into the longer ports?
and by restrict, i mean a bump or possible restriction right before the valve opening(which i believe is there by factory). The goal being to speed it up but not constrict air flow...


_Modified by fatfreevw at 2:25 PM 3-12-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (fatfreevw)*

At the expense of volume, yes.
The name of the game is VOLUME. More air = boom.
Dont confuse utilizing velocity to achieve cylinder filling (volume) with velocity alone.
Taken to the extreme, simply causing a restriction would mean you would make max power when the valves were closed


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I believe the OEM MkIV cam has these specs:
Front bank:
intake/exhaust
245°,10.7mm/240°,10.2mm

Rear bank:
intake/exhaust
240°,10.2mm/245°,10.7mm

I believe one of Foffa's proposed cams was something like:
Front bank:
intake/exhaust
260°,11.3mm/254°,10.9mm
Rear bank:
intake/exhaust
254°,10.9mm/260°,11.3mm

Hmm but maybe that is reversed...
_Modified by phatvw at 11:04 AM 3-12-2007_

*Ive measured 2 different OEMs







*The grinder in US sent me similar info that ive found out about the MK4
But it could be measuring error of ~3degrees because *US spec 248/238 and euro MK4 245/240*.
so we can call em ~245








MK4
Front bank intake ~245* lift 10,7
Front bank Exhaust ~240* lift 10,2
Mk4
Rear bank intake ~240* lift 10,2
Rear bank exhaust ~245* 10,7


_Modified by [email protected] at 12:28 PM 3-12-2007_


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*

do the uneven pulses cause the distinct sound vr6 motor makes?
edit: or is it the length of the intake?


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_At the expense of volume, yes.
The name of the game is VOLUME. More air = boom.
Dont confuse utilizing velocity to achieve cylinder filling (volume) with velocity alone.
Taken to the extreme, simply causing a restriction would mean you would make max power when the valves were closed









Is it possible(aka enough material) to hog it out and apply a slight bump/restriction ? (im just tryign to follow the KISS mind set(Keep It Simple Stupid)... im ont saying its the answer to everything, but along with proper cam duration, this might be something to add that can only help(though might cost a lot)


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_doesnt restricting the air flow, speed it up as well? if so, is there a way to incorporate that into the longer ports?
and by restrict, i mean a bump or possible restriction right before the valve opening(which i believe is there by factory). The goal being to speed it up but not constrict air flow...


Yes, that's why the port gets smaller as you get closer to the valve.
I would think you'd want the bigger lift in the back to compensate for the smaller cross section. Though I can see that a higher velocity port will want a smaller duration compared to a low velocity port for the *same* airflow. Though, that's matching the restriction, not trying to compensate for it. 
Think of a back chamber, with a small inlet valve duration and a restrictive long port, and a short exhaust runner and big duration. How is the short high flow exhaust runner and large duration profile supposed to help there when it's still being choked up by the smaller intake port. 
I think the difference are less on the front three where the exhaust port size isn't as important as you have thermodynamics and the prospect of pressure pulses helping pull all that air out.
{edit}
I think the real question is the resonance tuning important or the actual FLOW of the system?


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 3:43 PM 3-12-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I think the real question is the resonance tuning important or the actual FLOW of the system?


As you tune for higher and higher RPM, I don't think you can separate flow and harmonic resonance tuning. And high RPM is where we all want to go with this right?
I believe the analogy between cars and computers is applicable once again. As the MHz/GHz rating on your computer's CPU/motherboard gets higher, engineers have to take nth-order harmonics into effect when laying out the tiny conductors in the lattice, otherwise you get inductance/capacitance effects and wire cross-talk which ruins reliability.
All that air moving in and out at 7000RPM creates turbulence and waves. You want the waves to be tuned to keep the air moving in the proper direction 










_Modified by phatvw at 12:54 PM 3-12-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
As you tune for higher and higher RPM, I don't think you can separate flow and harmonic resonance tuning. And high RPM is where we all want to go with this right?
I believe the analogy between cars and computers is applicable once again. As the MHz/GHz rating on your computer's CPU/motherboard gets higher, engineers have to take nth-order harmonics into effect when laying out the tiny conductors in the lattice, otherwise you get inductance/capacitance effects and wire cross-talk which ruins reliability.
All that air moving in and out at 7000RPM creates turbulence and waves. You want the waves to be tuned to keep the air moving in the proper direction 









_Modified by phatvw at 12:54 PM 3-12-2007_

My test today showed peak HP at 7600rpm with OEM mk4 cams and OEM mk4 intake http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








But it only gained ~12hp from 6000-7600rpm
But still a bit shorter runners then MK3 that fall flat befor 6k


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

>>My test today showed peak HP at 7600rpm 
Turbo or NA ?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

NA MK4
just bumped timing after 5k and rev limit to 8k.
everything is stock http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
My test today showed peak HP at 7600rpm with OEM mk4 cams and OEM mk4 intake http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








But it only gained ~12hp from 6000-7600rpm
But still a bit shorter runners then MK3 that fall flat befor 6k

Peak HP is one thing, but what about peak torque!


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Wait a minute on a 2.8 or the 2.4 that they use across the pond? dyno sheets?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_Wait a minute on a 2.8 or the 2.4 that they use across the pond? dyno sheets?









2.3L VR5: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3062575


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (phatvw)*

Here is my car with old ecu a couple of years ago.
maxed out 212WNM = *156WTQ* in "sweep dyno" ala US style.
and it had 198WNM in locked 10sec rpm mode = 144WTQ.
But its a VR 2.3L








So ill guess ill get kicked in the nuts by em MK4 2,8L 12v


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
I don't think you can separate flow and harmonic resonance tuning.

Of course you can't actually separate them, but you can separate your thinking a bit.
I've been mulling over this for hours and I just 'duh'd a bit. All of foffa's information ASSUMES that you're using unequal intake runner lengths. If you do that, the resonance tuning details he has makes sense. 
Once you even out the long/short runner length issue you decouple it as an effect. Then you can think about evening out the flow as you'll end up having the same pulse effects in both runners.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

so everyone is talking about these runner lengths but why can't the intake manifold just compenstate for them with velocity stacks? 
the only other problem would be compensating for them in the exhaust. 
we're going to try a short runner w/ full equal length ports utilizing velocity stacks and see how it does but i think we'll need to end up doing an equal length exhaust setup as well to see true gains.
i don't think tuning this as two 3 cyl's is going to work effectively at all but making all the runners equal length and volume could be an answer.


_Modified by JRaptor at 8:23 PM 3-12-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_so everyone is talking about these runner lengths but why can't the intake manifold just compenstate for them with velocity stacks? 

No reason that it can't, it's just that few take the time to do so.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

>> why can't the intake manifold just compenstate for them with velocity stacks?
You mean like the OE manifold? It does.
>> the only other problem would be compensating for them in the exhaust. 
You mean like the OE manifold? It does.
Hey is there an echo in here?








>> i don't think tuning this as two 3 cyl's is going to work effectively at all 
Why not?
>> i'm currently working on doing a huge port in that area
How'd this work out ?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I hear what you're saying, but why can't you just make the runner lengths equal?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I hear what you're saying, but why can't you just make the runner lengths equal?









If you want to tune for high RPM, you need short runners. But its hard to get short runners and intake compensation in such a compact space. The OEM MkIII manifold has intake runner compensation, but is tuned for lower RPM.
The OEM 2-piece exhaust manifold may have a little compensation in the runner lengths for each 3-into-1 collector, but I don't think the whole system is ideally tuned for pulses. To tune for the pulses I think a tubular manifold aka headers is the way to go.
Back about 10 pages there are pics of an R32 fellow with custom intake and exhaust headers which were designed in this way. With the R32's MkIV-style mirrored cams it was unclear if his was the proper way to go though...
edit: here it is:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...06724


_Modified by phatvw at 12:09 AM 3-13-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (phatvw)*

There's enough room you just have to move things around a little bit. The 'optimum' length is somewhere between 9 and 14 inches for this motor and you can figure out where based on your setup. There's plenty of room to fit both as you're counting from the valve head center and not the edge of the head.
The OEM manifold, when ported, seems to work better then the long tube headers time and time again. It's strange but true. Could be they lack runner length compensation, could be the primaries are too big or too small. Could be that the secondaries are too small or too short. Who knows. Until the intake side is opened up to move enough air, it's been proven time and time over that the backside isn't the restriction.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> why can't the intake manifold just compenstate for them with velocity stacks?
You mean like the OE manifold? It does.
>> the only other problem would be compensating for them in the exhaust. 
You mean like the OE manifold? It does.
Hey is there an echo in here?








>> i don't think tuning this as two 3 cyl's is going to work effectively at all 
Why not?
>> i'm currently working on doing a huge port in that area
How'd this work out ? 


it does not compensate worth a sh*t. measure the volume and they are not equal on both the intake or exhaust side. 
everyone claims they are doing true equal length/volume something or another but then either never finish or never post up any #'s, 1/4 mile times or anything to show gains/losses.
tune the VR as if it was a regular 45 degree V6. except, without the easy equal length intake down the center, you have to compensate for it completely on the front side. take a stock motor, stock head and all and dyno it. then throw a completely equal (length/volume) shortest runner possible intake on it and see where you stand. 
i personally can't weld aluminum or i'd do it myself in a heart beat.
...on the heads i'm working on....
the bottleneck is enlarged and the bowl is opened up. the rest of the port was polished but left the same. 
we have another head where just the bowl was enlarged.
time to flip a coin to see which one goes on first.


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

I would say keep VW concept.
Just look at this 5 banger MK4 (more vr5 dynos at http://www.rri.se under VW or check out my air filter test made by the rri labratory
http://www.gtiklubben.nu/showfaq.php?id=55

150whp totaly stock would equall ~180Whp bone stock on a VR6 MK4.
An engine is just a pump.
Semi good M3.8 Ecu and bosch picallo injectors.
Keep the 76mm compensation for the MK3 and just retune it for a new rpm.
There arent any real bottle necks in the head or the intake.
Its just that Valve area,port size and runner lenght are tuned for ~5700-6000rpm peak power on MK3.
And if you want more efficiency up top retune runner lenght and get som higher duration to keep gas speed at "good" effeicient speed.
The small ports make gas speed go crazy with oem cams.

So keep same concept but retune it for higher rpm.
VW arnt stupid.
The engine is made to be compact and the intake conceptlots and lots of thought behind it.

Its just like 2 years ago people didnt belive it even had runner compensation inside the plenum and everybody thought that "its just schrick who cared baout it not lazy VW" ....so that myth is killed after alot of work.

And just like the MK4 special cams.
Just a year ago people claimed "it's a myth" etc etc etc
Most of these people claming this were companies in US making cams and tuning SRI intakes.

So keep same concept but retune it for higher rpm.
OEM MK3 is tuned for 5700rpm
Were does efficiency fall = 5700rpm

Number of Cylinders = 6 

Stroke = 90 mm Total displacement = 2782,62 cm³ 
Cylinder diam = 81 mm One cylinder displ = 463,77 cm³ 
RPM = 5700 
Piston mean speed = 17,1 m/s 
Kolv tväryta = 5152,9974 mm² 
Intake valve diam = 34 mm 
Intake valve lift = 10,2 mm Intake valve flow area = 927,06308 mm² 
Valve seat angle (usually 45°)= 45 deg 
Camshaft Intake duration = 240 deg Intake gas speed (A good value should be 60 - 95 m/s) = 
95,05 m/s 
RPM = 5800 rpm 
Speed of sound = 355 m/s 
Reflective Value = 3 
Intake diameter = 34 mm 
Camshaft duration = 240 º 


Intake lenght = 38,77 cm 

Make a 81mm oem piston version with phat cams and 27cm from plenum to valve and sky is the limit with BVH head.
Gas speed = good
over all harmonicly tuned area = good.
And it will breathe until 7500rpm but not fall flat until 8K.
Number of Cylinders = 6 

Stroke = 90 mm Total displacement = 2782,62 cm³ 
Cylinder diam = 81 mm One cylinder displ = 463,77 cm³ 
RPM = 7500 
Piston mean speed = 22,5 m/s 
Kolv tväryta = 5152,9974 mm² 
Intake valve diam = 37 mm 
Intake valve lift = 12 mm Intake valve flow area = 1186,8974 mm² 
Valve seat angle (usually 45°)= 45 deg 
Camshaft Intake duration = 268 deg Intake gas speed (A good value should be 60 - 95 m/s) = 
97,69 m/s 

RPM = 8000 rpm 
Speed of sound = 355 m/s 
Reflective Value = 3 
Intake diameter = 35 mm 
Camshaft duration = 268 º 


Intake lenght = 26,72 cm 
Make it breathe correct by having it tuned with all aspects of head flow.


----------



## RideVR6 (May 28, 2002)

*Re: (foffa2002)*

Umm..are you an engineer? I am lost


----------



## apex (Mar 30, 2000)

*Re: (JRaptor)*








wrong account


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (apex)*

Raptor, I was talking about the aluminum intake. 
>>then throw a completely equal (length/volume) shortest runner intake on it 
mk4 type cams
>>the bottleneck is enlarged and the bowl is opened up
What % of valve diamerter is the bowl now? Will you flow it?


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (foffa2002)*

Sorry if this is a stupid question..but are you going to be making N/A cams for us MK3 guys? Sounds like you have some interesting things going on....


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (foffa2002)*

Foffa,
>> "keep same concept but retune it for higher rpm."
I dont mean to be argumentative but if you have tried to make >> NA << HP from this motor you know this is easier said than done.
There are a lot of people watching this thread who have tried. There are a lot of people who have known for over 10 years that there is runner compensation in the intake. Hell, one of our guys was working on PRE-production (AAA) VR6 cylinder heads in 1992. 
>> Make a 81mm oem piston version with phat cams and 27cm from plenum to valve and sky is the limit with BVH head.
This is how your VR5 turbo manifold is set up? 
It's not as simple on the NA motor as you make it sound. Try it ! The 12v dies where the 24v just starts to come to life. This is significant because otherwise they are very similar. Bore / Stroke / Piston speed etc
Nobody has found the 12v magic yet. ~280HP is the max we have ever seen PROOF of in a 12v. And that was with a VERY worked head and LOTS of testing and re-testing. The "fattest" cams made less power than the 288* did on this particular motor. (Rhiel) 
As you know a full race 3L should make over 400hp easily but we can't get to 300. 
Again I am not trying to fight with you. Your work has been very helpful and I thank you for sharing with us. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> Vm = 17,1 m/s
What did you come up with for Vmax = 28m/s ?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

>> but are you going to be making N/A cams for us MK3 guys?
If you have an OE mk2/3 intake then there are tons of cams out there:
CAT, Schrick, Autotech, Eurospec, Bildon, DSR, Interprep, etc etc... 
If you have a custom intake with no runner compensation then ...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Foffa,
>> "keep same concept but retune it for higher rpm."
I dont mean to be argumentative but if you have tried to make >> NA << HP from this motor you know this is easier said than done.
There are a lot of people watching this thread who have tried. There are a lot of people who have known for over 10 years that there is runner compensation in the intake. Hell, one of our guys was working on PRE-production (AAA) VR6 cylinder heads in 1992. 
>> Make a 81mm oem piston version with phat cams and 27cm from plenum to valve and sky is the limit with BVH head.
This is how your VR5 turbo manifold is set up? 
It's not as simple on the NA motor as you make it sound. Try it ! The 12v dies where the 24v just starts to come to life. This is significant because otherwise they are very similar. Bore / Stroke / Piston speed etc
Nobody has found the 12v magic yet. ~280HP is the max we have ever seen PROOF of in a 12v. And that was with a VERY worked head and LOTS of testing and re-testing. The "fattest" cams made less power than the 288* did on this particular motor. (Rhiel) 
As you know a full race 3L should make over 400hp easily but we can't get to 300. 
Again I am not trying to fight with you. Your work has been very helpful and I thank you for sharing with us. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> Vm = 17,1 m/s
What did you come up with for Vmax = 28m/s ?


both my Vrs got OEM port size,valve size ,cams etc .


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

>> both my Vrs got OEM port size,valve size ,cams etc .
I'll take this to mean that you have 2 VRs and that they are both bone stock and that you have never tried to make real NA horsepower.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

QUOTE=Bildon Motorsport]>> both my Vrs got OEM port size,valve size ,cams etc .
I'll take this to mean that you have 2 VRs and that they are both bone stock and that you have never tried to make real NA horsepower.







[/QUOTE]
Ive sold the N/A kit.
And the car i use in the winter produce close to 180hp on all stock pices and high rpm so its enough.
Spending cash on the turbo car is enough


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

What did you come up with for Vmax = 28m/s ?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Ïll check tomorrow
Got the softwares at work
/Fredrik

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What did you come up with for Vmax = 28m/s ?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Do you have the valve diameters correct, I thought stock was 39mm.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Yup should be 39mm. 
Actually *should* be 42mm


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Raptor, I was talking about the aluminum intake. 
>>then throw a completely equal (length/volume) shortest runner intake on it 
mk4 type cams
>>the bottleneck is enlarged and the bowl is opened up
What % of valve diamerter is the bowl now? Will you flow it?


we have stock cams and 272's to try it out with. 
basically what i'm doing is trying to help with this project on my racecar that is supposed to be going turbo. i'm just postponing that a little so we can see if we will ever even get 275 out of the 12v's.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

Kinda new to this thread..... waaay too many pages to read through
I had someone tell me that extrude honing the head and slapping on a V8 TB would pretty much do it, I think that's a silly idea but I'm far from qualified to be able to answer that thought.
I also have someone who is working on a individual throttle body setup w/ equal length runners, any comments?


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

how about making a intake to center the TB so the manifold flows better......i remember a while back when guys were porting out OEM manifolds and as i recall they found the TB to be a bottle neck 
so how about a equal length manifold with a centered TB??? kinda like the oem peice but just perfecting it a little.....just throwing idea's out there.......it would be costly but a new cast manifold would be amazing.....because the shrick one is just a cleaner looking oem piece in my eyes...but somthing along those lines with tuned runner lenghts and a nice sized plenum 
when i ported my OEM TB i noticed a difference top end it was one of the few mods for a couple bucks i felt really worked so it made me feel a true equal lenght intake manifold needs to be designed 



_Modified by Corradokcid at 7:05 PM 3-13-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_
I had someone tell me that extrude honing the head and slapping on a V8 TB would pretty much do it, I think that's a silly idea but I'm far from qualified to be able to answer that thought.


Trust your gut, those two modifications aren't going to do much.

_Quote »_
I also have someone who is working on a individual throttle body setup w/ equal length runners, any comments?

A setup like that has already made 230whp with a stock bottom end, DTA, Schrick 268s and a CCH 'race port' BVH.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I thought Bildon had decided not to do ITB for one reason or another. Perhaps cost was the issue?


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I thought Bildon had decided not to do ITB for one reason or another. Perhaps cost was the issue?

I believe it's not legal for the class they run. They have to retain the stock engine managment system.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

We're not doing this for us. It's for you.
ITBs are going to be looked at for stage 3.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
im not sure if this has been covered but are you guys going to run the mk4 headgasket to bump up the compression a little?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_We're not doing this for us. It's for you.



He meant me, personally. You all can stop listening now.


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
He meant me, personally. You all can stop listening now.

me too


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

>> im not sure if this has been covered but are you guys going to run the mk4 headgasket
Dude... dont make me come over there and smack you


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*








just making sure


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

What if we decide to just o-ring it ?


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

That would be awesome but I thought that the last engine to use o-rings instead of a gasket was the old 429 cobra-jet. And here's a







for all of the good work that Bildonhas been doing.


----------



## BonTechnik (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

the big mistery of this thread is whether Bildon has seen the quote button


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

So, I've been watching this thread since it was 'only' 17 pages long and it seems like all we're looking for is top end power. Bildon, is any of this research going to benefit daily driver types like myself who more than likely will never take their car to the track but are really just looking for a nice strong increase within the stock powerband? I love reading the posts on this thread for the technical info. but I'm begining to wonder if any of this would really ever apply to me and my car.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (pacobonnin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pacobonnin* »_the big mistery of this thread is whether Bildon has seen the quote button 









It uses too much vertical space.


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
A setup like that has already made 230whp with a stock bottom end, DTA, Schrick 268s and a CCH 'race port' BVH.


If I were to build an N/A vr, it would be very similar to this. I would, however, increase displacement to 3 liters and make every effort to lighten the rotating mass. I think that the biggest downfall of the 3-liter NA vrs here is that they have been running on either piggybacks or pain old off-the-shelf chips. The flexibility of standalone in the hands of someone capable is invaluable. Obviously the most intensive of headwork is needed, as are large cams. That with ITBs and sufficient compression should do the trick. 
If I had such a car and my laptop, I am 100% confident I could get to at least 250whp.


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (nick526)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nick526* »_ So, I've been watching this thread since it was 'only' 17 pages long and it seems like all we're looking for is top end power. Bildon, is any of this research going to benefit daily driver types like myself who more than likely will never take their car to the track but are really just looking for a nice strong increase within the stock powerband? I love reading the posts on this thread for the technical info. but I'm begining to wonder if any of this would really ever apply to me and my car. 

nitrous








i dont understand this?


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Yup should be 39mm. 
Actually *should* be 42mm









yes but minimum area is much smaller.
the software doesent adjust for that.
So it has to be a smaller value the the full face of the intake valve.
9000=Piston mean speed =27m/s
9300=28m/s


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (foffa2002)*


_Quote, originally posted by *foffa2002* »_
yes but minimum area is much smaller.

You're using the inner seat diameter then? If so I'm still not sure why it increased between the two scenarios you presented above (other then an increase in valve size). Which software package are you using?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote »_
really just looking for a nice strong increase within the stock powerband

This has been done time and time again. Chip, intake, exhaust, mild cams. If you're feeling saucy a mildly ported stock valve head.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_
If I had such a car and my laptop, I am 100% confident I could get to at least 250whp. 

You've fallen into the trap my friend. The same trap Foffa is in. And perhaps the same trap that started us down this path in the first place. On paper, or with software, the engine looks like it should make tons of power when a std. "race prep" is applied. But it doesn't!







It's therefore very easy to say "do this and that" and you'll get big power.
The HP on all but the most sophisticated OE engines can be easily doubled (100% increase) when high output practices are applied. The VR basically made ~200hp from day 1 with the ABV 2.9L Corrado. However *nobody* has been able to manage even a 50% increase in power output from this thing since the day it left that Wolfsburg factory.
The theories as to why are discussed early in this thread. I wont rehash.
I do agree with you that complete control over the fuel and ignition management is key and that is why we contacted Jeff Atwood long ago for help with the M2.9.







We'll be using his system to reprogram the ECU for the stg 1-2+ engines and we will probably opt to install a MoTec on the 'full out' motor just to make our lives easier. 
Regarding your other comments, '3L', yes agreed. We've got a set of pistons now ( see pics a few pages back) that will punch it out to a *true* 3L with no crank changes. This 3L bottom end will be the basis for much of our testing.
Large cams. We have cams ready to test from 262° to 317° with lifts as high as 13.2mm. However we also have info suggesting that any more than a 288° doesn't work. We'll see. That is one of the big questions. You design the cams around the valve lift profile not the other way around so maybe we get lucky and a combination of these cams work or maybe we need to grind our own.


----------



## RideVR6 (May 28, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I cant wait for this stuff. I will most likely have to buy a VR again.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_We're not doing this for us. It's for you.
ITBs are going to be looked at for stage 3.


My buddy is planning on aquiring some nissan/toyota TB's from the 4AG motor to attempt a ITB setup on a VR....
any help u can provide?
ps- please reserve your comments about the manufacturer of the TB's. They have a HUUUUGE flow rate and could compensate for any demands that the motor may need. That and they're free


_Modified by GermanRob at 4:53 PM 3-14-2007_


----------



## Kenner8v88 (Jun 15, 2005)

Ok, so im way back on the first page of this whole thing saying that the only possible way u can make big power n/a with the 12v VR6 is if u redesign the head for better flow. And obviously this is turning out to be true, all im saying it yes these days we have more technology and all that jazz, but that means nothing if the initial design on the engine wasn't made to make high hp numbers. So with that said and reading all these pages of bs about the idea im confidently sure your just wasting time and money, so just redisign the head already, and quit whining.










_Modified by Kenner8v88 at 9:09 PM 3-14-2007_


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (Kenner8v88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kenner8v88* »_Ok, so im way back on the first page of this whole thing saying that the only possible way u can make big power n/a with the 12v VR6 is if u redesign the head for better flow. And obviously this is turning out to be true, all im saying it yes these days we have more technology and all that jazz, but that means nothing if the initial design on the engine wasn't made to make high hp numbers. So with that said and reading all these pages of bs about the idea im confidently sure your just wasting time and money, so just redisign the head already, and quit whining.









_Modified by Kenner8v88 at 9:09 PM 3-14-2007_

would u like some cheeze to go with that?
Some of us find this type of research fun


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_
My buddy is planning on aquiring some nissan/toyota TB's from the 4AG motor to attempt a ITB setup on a VR....
any help u can provide?
ps- please reserve your comments about the manufacturer of the TB's. They have a HUUUUGE flow rate and could compensate for any demands that the motor may need. That and they're free


Rob...you said earlier you haven't read all 17 pages of this thread.....well I think you need to. The whole point of this thread is to address the fundamental design problems of the VR6, not to give tips on an ITB install. You aren't the first guy to think of ITB's on a VR. ITB's are the holy grail to unlock power on most engines but they have never brought a VR6 close to 100 hp/L as they would on your standard V6 or I-4 with wild cams, header, high compression etc. That is why Bildon is trying to look at this exercise from a different perspective.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
Rob...you said earlier you haven't read all 17 pages of this thread.....well I think you need to. The whole point of this thread is to address the fundamental design problems of the VR6, not to give tips on an ITB install. You aren't the first guy to think of ITB's on a VR. ITB's are the holy grail to unlock power on most engines but they have never brought a VR6 close to 100 hp/L as they would on your standard V6 or I-4 with wild cams, header, high compression etc. That is why Bildon is trying to look at this exercise from a different perspective. 

my my my aren't you sensitive. By the way you act, I'd almost assume your a disgruntled moderator. I'll try to make an effort to read all 32 pages if u make an effort to post something useful to the original topic. This thread is about research, not pointing out the obvious; and along those lines is what me n the guys are doing: trying to perfect an age old idea with a fresh twist.

edit---> careful with the whole sharing ur thoughts stuff, tends to lead to useless arguments

edit2=--> Bildon, u have anything u can repost as far as info on ITB setup? Where its issues are as far as HP barrier and what has kept this setup from pushing big numbers?


_Modified by GermanRob at 8:34 PM 3-14-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Kenner8v88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kenner8v88* »_Ok, so im way back on the first page of this whole thing saying that the only possible way u can make big power n/a with the 12v VR6 is if u redesign the head for better flow. 

I our very first post we ask if anyone can help with CFD analysis. CFD would be used for evaluating fluid flow designs... like say... in modified cylinder heads and intakes.








Glad you finally caught on though







just kidding bud http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
I our very first post we ask if anyone can help with CFD analysis. CFD would be used for evaluating fluid flow designs... like say... in modified cylinder heads and intakes.








Glad you finally caught on though







just kidding bud http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'm going to assume that this means bildonMS is looking into possibly designing a custom head?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (GermanRob)*

>> cams w/ longer duration on intake than outake
All the cam designers use more duration on exhaust than intake and I dont presume to be smarter than Dr Schrick or CAT etc. However I do like the idea of an asymmetric front and rear for the short runner motors.
>> I'm gonna assume nobody's tried it with these TB's? 
Hayward Performance and Grant Motorsport are 2 that come to mind immediately.








>> I'm going to assume that this means bildonMS is looking into possibly designing a custom head?
Yes, it's called a custom valvetrain, cams and reprofiling of the ports.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:49 PM 3-14-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
I our very first post we ask if anyone can help with CFD analysis. CFD would be used for evaluating fluid flow designs... like say... in modified cylinder heads and intakes.








Glad you finally caught on though







just kidding bud http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Are you getting any help with the CFD Bill? If not let me know. I am
an FEA person but have done CFD in the past and still have contacts who do CFD who might be able to give some direction.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

IM sent


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hayward Performance and Grant Motorsport are 2 that come to mind immediately.








Are u sure these are TB's from a toyota 4ag motor?

Well the motor is going to be setup and tested on the 'flow'








can u pm me with contact information for someone who can provide us with some assistance in our trials w/ the 4ag TB's? I'm sure we're gonna need it at some point. 
I haven't gone to the website from the pic, but will be doing that right after I post this.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (GermanRob)*

NONE of the links on grantMS main page are functional..... useless site unfortunately.
edit--> on the old page they offer nothing in the way of ITB's

2nd edit--> hayward offers nothing for vr6 in the way of ITB other than custom setup, which we are already doing.
neither of the companies seem to be using toyota 4ag TB's


_Modified by GermanRob at 5:11 PM 3-15-2007_


----------



## RideVR6 (May 28, 2002)

*Re: (GermanRob)*

Just use the search button and look in the 12v forum. There are very limited people who have done ITB's on a VR and i am sure even less who have used the exact ones you are talking about. 
There is also a forum for ITB's!!! Check there!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=517


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (RideVR6)*

from an ooooold itb thread

_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_I just got off the phone with Grant Motorsport and they can tell you the whole history of this car dating back to the standard engine development on throttle bodies using a mild cam to produce 238bhp and 245 lb/ft. He spent large sums of time and money developing this race car during the Pagid Race Championship from 1998 to 2000. He won 6 pole positions in a row during the 1999/2000 season in Class A.
The specification for the engine was huge and I only wrote down some of the parts, as a lot of it was Grant Motorsports own development work and they don’t want people knowing about it. It had a 83.75 cylinder bore to give as close to the 3 litre race limit as possible. It had a 12:1 compression ratio with forged motorsport pistons. The head was unique in that they were the only people to run a 43 inlet track and a 37.5 exhaust with offset valve guides. It had a scary 300+ duration on the cams (exact cam profile is secret but each one cost over £1000). The hydraulic set-up on the head was converted to mechanical to cope with the extreme running conditions. The car rev limit was set at 8,000rpm and produced * 318bhp at the crank with 276 lb/ft torque.* 
This adds up to a race car not practical for road use but did a mid 12 second ¼ mile run on road tyres. Even with a motorsport gearbox and plated diff it was wheel spinning in every gear! He ran the car for a complete race season without requiring a rebuild. Every regular to GTI International in the UK always remembers this white Vento blasting down the strip, as the noise was indescribable.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (RideVR6)*

you guys rock http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

Great find... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
>> It had a scary 300+ duration
Most full prep NA race engines have an inlet duration of around 300°. 
>>exact cam profile is secret
Might it be???
Int / Exh
duration [0.1mm+cl] 308° 308° 
valve lift [cl=0] 12.70mm 12.70mm 
Lobe Centers 106° 106° 
timing [1.0mm+cl] 29/61° 61/29°
lift at TDC [cl=0] 4.75mm 4.75mm 
>> converted to mechanical to cope with the extreme running conditions
Its needed to control the valvetrain precisely above 7500 as there is very little room for error between piston and valve and retainer and seal at these type of lifts (~13mm).
>> Even with a motorsport gearbox and plated diff it was wheel spinning in every gear! 
Neither of these 2 items will stop wheel spin at all







It's only 275 TQ ? every gear? I call BS on that one!







Sounds like a bit of Grant salesmanship...
>> He ran the car for a complete race season without requiring a rebuild.
Because the CR was only 12:1 no problemo. Showroom cars will be approaching this now that direct injection is becoming common.
>> as the noise was indescribable.
and it goes a little like this.....
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_Corrrado.mpeg
However... This is impressive as hell.
* 318bhp at the crank * 
I wonder what it would have made with 15:1 compression.
I'm going to have to call them up on Monday.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

that's what I've been saying, ITB's are the secret to power on these things in a NA setup
Lemmie know what u find out, post post post post post


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (GermanRob)*

They are not a secret.







Grant has had info about that engine on their site for many years. I had never heard that HP # though. 
From 2001
http://web.archive.org/web/200...g.asp
VR6 2.9/30 Litre 200 bhp - 350 bhp
That 350 # is for a 24v
Here's a pic of their cams. Looks like a pretty high lift billet steel.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

heres the whole thread if you guys wanna sift through it
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=747451


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_

















Those cams look insane!


----------



## EnIgMa '06 (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (TallaiMan)*

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3076853


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (EnIgMa '06)*

Yes we're going to flow test some of his stuff for him.
He has a nice process for getting a good wall finish but some of the runners are a tad too big. Once we get some head ports big enough to need large runners I told him we can collaborate. He could use some help with port design and we could help with runner porting... it's so damn time consuming.


----------



## Matt49265 (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Curious as to what you guys are doing w/ a header setup as far as primary tube length/diameter? Is this not such a crucial factor in this whole project?


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Matt49265)*

Great find with the cam info and thanks for sharing. A lot of fun testing/measuring is going to come from that. 
To everyone else that is just joining A LOT has been discussed and i know its a huge PITA(pain in the ***) to search through all those pages. However, if you are just coming into this discussion, please try to go through it so this thread can stay on topic.
Bildon is taking a lot of time and money to help the whole community. If he does release, i wouldn't predict it being very cheap. You'll most likely need a completely rebuilt head, no cams, and possibly a new intake manifold(all just guessing from the discussions that have taken place in this thread). By coming in here and pointing out the obvious(to a lot of people) it takes more time to stop the people commenting on your post and less time away from the objective @ hand. I'm not king dude of this thread, I'm only stating what would help and what doesn't...










_Modified by fatfreevw at 10:20 PM 3-17-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_Bildon is taking a lot of time and money to help the whole community. If he does release, i wouldn't predict it being very cheap. You'll most likely need a completely rebuilt head, no cams, and possibly a new intake manifold(all just guessing from the discussions that have taken place in this thread).

That's fine by me. I would not mind throwing some money into my car for an engine that can make an honest 220hp at the wheels. That's why I continue to watch this thread and keep my comments to myself unless I feel that they are beneficial.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Guess who forgot to call Grant this AM ?








Flowbench update. We owed somebody else some time on it and they're done. So I'm now getting it set up with the right adapter and tools for the VR6 heads and we'll be ready to flow.
Here's some crap to look at until then...








We're going to be taking a very methodical approach to this... documenting and logging everything so that when we see a change we know why. It does no good to make 300 hp if you dont know exactly why.
We will be logging the details of every component tested like the intake valve data here:








While flow testing our head mods we have a number of means of capturing and crutching the data.
This screen shows our flow bench data capture software. The software not only capture flow data it does some pretty slick post processing analysis on the captured flow numbers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
















Post testing flow data will also be available in graphical format for those of you who like pretty pictures.
















Note: The #s above are meaningless test #s
While CFM is nice, velocity is the key. Here we have a screen shot of the tool to capture velocity across 27 points in each port. 








At 3 sections of the port (Short turn apex, mid point and port entrance) we can capture 9 points of cross section velocity Top Left, Top Middle, Top Right, Middle Left, etc etc ... this will give us a velocity "map" similar to what is shown below.








More junk...
Our long shank carbides are barely long enough for the VR6 heads. But they get the job done.
















The challenge... getting lots of air to flow fast down this long tunnel...








This is a circle scribed at ~83.5mm. The ID of a MLS gasket. 








Port matching http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 








An untouched port. VW did a damn good job with shape and finish. The valve seat blend could use some work however.










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:31 PM 3-20-2007_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Haha, if anyone doubted these guys were serious....
Thanks for keeping us in the loop. I imagine if there is power hiding in this engine, you will either find it or find out exactly where it stops


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Really looking forward to seeing the results!. After taking a beating from a all motor ITR this weekend (3 time in a row) I'm ready to bust out the CC if we can get 230whp out of the VR. If this guy is whooping me with 222whp I think Bildon can make it happen.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

A box of candy ...


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Haven't heard of those pistons before, what are some of the specs on them?


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_Really looking forward to seeing the results!. After taking a beating from a all motor ITR this weekend (3 time in a row) I'm ready to bust out the CC if we can get 230whp out of the VR. If this guy is whooping me with 222whp I think Bildon can make it happen.

what color was it? i've ran a ITR with those exact same claimed whp #'s had a dead even run with him.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Haven't heard of those pistons before, what are some of the specs on them?

We introduced them back on page 24. Wössner (pronounced Wuss-ner







) is working with us to develop a special piston for these Bildon VR6 project motors.
http://forums.bildon.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27
Since you asked... here are all the NA pistons
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6
And here are some of the turbo pistons
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:35 PM 3-20-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I have seen those Wuss-ner pistons on UK/Germany ebay listings for a while now.
The price on your website is a very decent price for a full set (pins, rings, locks...) of 4 cylinder pistons with a skirt coat. It is nice to see stock/drop in pistions offered, most "of the shelf" pistons are always 1st and 2nd overbore.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 Race Motor*

Nobody is picking up the phone at Grant so I emailed them. We'll see...
Stage 1 cams... waiting to be spec'ed








Oh and it appears that we will have a VR6 52mm ITB setup available for the stage 3 motor after all. Will we make them available to the public? hmmm $$$$


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Oh and it appears that we will have a VR6 52mm ITB setup available for the stage 3 motor after all. Will we make them available to the public? hmmm $$$$









I'll send you some CC love if you make good N/A power


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (TallaiMan)*

I second that.







. Are you using Grant MS to supply or making your own?


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (bluegrape)*

Curious as to why you guys are already planning "stages".....Stg 1 cams, Stg 3 ITB's......don't you have a lot of modelling and research to do before you start spec'ing cam grinds??


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Curious as to why you guys are already planning "stages"

We've had this planned since the first page. Only stage 2+ and Stg 3 will require the type of engineering research that much of this has thread has been about. The HP targets for stg 1 & 2 have laready been hit repeatedly by us. We've just never offered a "kit" before, instead building to customer requirements. 
The goal is to document and PROVE the results so you guys know why part combination XYZ is better than what the guys at the "EXTREME Radical Race Shop"







sell you.
Stage 1:
A mildly tuned 2.8L engine featuring "bolt-ons" proven to work in harmony to give a good power improvement with a minimal amount of work. A stage 1+ using the 2.9L "Euro" ABV pistons will also be available. With a custom programmed factory ECU, you can expect power outputs of over 200HP at the wheels with this stage. 
Stage 2
A heavily tuned 2.9L to 3L engine featuring numerous internal changes and cylinder head port work, component lightening and intake modifications. This engine will not be a full out race motor. In order to remain "streetable" it will not make use of race gas exclusively, it will not require solid lifters and it will not require frequent rebuilding. 
Stage 3
The specs of this ultimate VR6 remain to be determined. The target is to exceed the 260WHP that 1 or 2 others have reportedly achieved. In fact the ultimate goal would be to determine what the main restriction is and remove it and move the VR6 into the power range a 2v 3L engine should be capable of.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_Are you using Grant MS to supply or making your own?


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
We've had this planned since the first page. Only stage 2+ and Stg 3 will require the type of engineering research that much of this has thread has been about. 

Gotcha, thanks for the refresher. After 31 pages one tends to forget things


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Mr Black)*

Wossner is a highly reputable company from Germany. Most VW/Opel tuners use Wossner, Schrick, and Engle for their motor components.


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*

"EXTREME Radical Race Shop" i hope this is not a dig........ i will get offended......


----------



## foffa2002 (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bildon
Give me 
rod length = 
stroke =	
RPM =	
Piston Weight =	
Of you new stuff if its no secret information








And i check what my software say about speed


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (foffa2002)*

Foffa I asked what YOUR calculation on maximum piston speed was.
I was trying to give you a hint on why the VR has trouble making power as an NA car. But you dont seem to understand what I've been asking you for so dont worry about it mate.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Foffa I asked what YOUR calculation on maximum piston speed was.
I was trying to give you a hint on why the VR has trouble making power as an NA car. But you dont seem to understand what I've been asking you for so dont worry about it mate.









Ok
English is not my native language .
But still 8k is no problem.
And 9k with built mechhead.
what is it tha your saying about VR rev ability?
My internals are ´much lighter the your with 81mm wiscos and pauter rods.
thats why i dont go 83 or 84mm on my turbo projects.
Paranoid about heavy internals


----------



## dankvwguy (Jul 24, 2005)

man..how have i missed this thread for so long. Loving all this 12v love


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
what is it tha your saying about VR rev ability?


Nothing.
I'm talking about piston speed and it's effect on the intake charge.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_My internals are much lighter than your









http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_....html 
Lighter than that? I doubt it!


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Lighter than that? I doubt it!









Haha... I'm sure that the rod bolts weigh an extra 400 grams.








Whose rods are those?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Nothing.
I'm talking about piston speed and it's effect on the intake charge.








http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_....html 
Lighter than that? I doubt it!










put those re-welded hicomp 83,5mm pistons on and your much heavier.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor ([email protected])*

>> re-welded
Wrong. Hey listen I was just trying to help you. 
The Wossner pistons are certainly *not* rewelded.
Those above are the untouched Stage 1 & 2 pistons and therefore have to keep some weight in them for street longevity. Stage 3 will be much lighter. They are currently 300g and for a 12:1 piston with a lot of meat in the crown that's light. Lighter than Wiseco's 10:1 by the way. 
I understand that you are building a turbo motor and that 81mm is fine for you. We need displacement however.
Are far as the rods. They are our own custom specified design. Pauter also makes an excellent rod.
Fredrik, What have you done to your crankshaft to match your light piston/rod assembly ?
>> Haha... I'm sure that the rod bolts weigh an extra 400 grams.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*

Cant do anything to the crank because its fully machined all over from factory on early VR5´s and most likely you will screw it up instead of improving it .
Its shaved on all sides,light,and fully balaced and got one high and one low counter weight vice versa on the crank shaft.
Those wössner still look strange.
They are common here but the forging on the hi-comp look strange.
What did they do to em ?
is that raw forgin on the top?


----------



## KEITH (Apr 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_

Stage 1:
A mildly tuned 2.8L engine featuring "bolt-ons" proven to work in harmony to give a good power improvement with a minimal amount of work. A stage 1+ using the 2.9L "Euro" ABV pistons will also be available. With a custom programmed factory ECU, you can expect power outputs of over 200HP at the wheels with this stage. 



Do you have an eta for this?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (KEITH)*

Stage 1 ? Last year.
2.9L with 201WHP
Mild cam, ABV pistons, Euro intake, custom ECU tune.
Dyno #s back on page 3 of the non-ABV intake version @ 190WHP.
email us if you'd like to discuss a motor build.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor ([email protected])*

>> Cant do anything to the crank
not going to match the crank weights to your new piston/rod assembly weight?


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, is there any possibility you will apply your knowledge gained from this experiment to produce a fully built FI motor?


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (JETTSET)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JETTSET* »_Bill, is there any possibility you will apply your knowledge gained from this experiment to produce a fully built FI motor?


I just don't think its as relevant. You can make a stock head / built block 12v vr spin all 6 on street tires.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Race Motor (JETTSET)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JETTSET* »_Bill, is there any possibility you will apply your knowledge gained from this experiment to produce a fully built FI motor?

No. "Bill" has already done it. 
http://www.schimmelperformance.com


----------



## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

any more info on the baffled oil pans and windage trays???


----------



## Rob Cote (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't quite have the time right now to sit and read 32 pages of this thread (just discovered this gold mine today) so I don't know if this has been brought up yet so I apologize in advance. Has anyone considered running an "interfooler" to help cool the intake charge some more? Or maybe an air/water unit?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (1SlowSLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1SlowSLC* »_any more info on the baffled oil pans and windage trays???

Actually yes! We've got something coming out very soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
One of our partners has developed a basic baffled pan using a more affordable steel stamping and we will be developing it further for maximum effect and full race applications. It will be a baffled steel pan at first. Then a baffled aluminum pan. Finally we'll have a baffled pan with windage screens and integrated scrapers. 
If the fully modded pan is as effective as our custom 4 cyl pans have been we expect to see ~5% improvement in power output. That's 20 free horsepower on the stage 1 motor from oil control alone!
Was reading recently about one of the BTCC Hondas where they picked up 300-400 RPM coming off certain corners by altering their pans. Getting rid of some more of the windage allowed them to stay in a higher gear on one of the sweepers leading onto a long straight and dropped their laps times .5 seconds.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (robs92jettv2.0)*

How do you plan on cooling something that is ~ambient with something that is ~ambient?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_









I could use one of these Bill... I assume it can be used with an aluminum pan, right? LMK http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Morrado)*

it just goes to show that the smallest overlooked parts can yield so much gain.
whats great about this thread is that its opening up not only new NA setups with good amounts of power but as we can see by this oil pan that you have other parts in development that interest people who dont have the budget to build the motor complete and are content with bolt ons. i would def. invest in one of these oil pans for my daily driven car simply for the greater oil control and the simple adjustment allowing more power 
again thanks for investing all this time, money, effort on making the 12v something its never been capable of doing before http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

Why no just use OEM MK4 ?
Got both splash wall and crank scraper fins ??


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Dunno about anyone else, but I wouldn't get the MK4 pan because it's aluminum.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Dunno about anyone else, but I wouldn't get the MK4 pan because it's aluminum.

aluminum dissapates heat faster than steel and doesn't rust. the only downside is rocks can go through it.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

Fixed:

_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_
aluminum dissapates heat faster than steel and doesn't rust. the only downside is *rocks go through it like a hot knife through butter*.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Why no just use OEM MK4 ?
Got both splash wall and crank scraper fins ??

That pan doesn't look right. Is it from a VR5 ?
Under heavy braking and acceleration the oil on that pan will walk right up the sides and into the crank. I dont see any real baffles. Just small "guides" to push oil toward the pump pickpup. Also, that pan has partial windage trays but no scrapers.
Aluminum is thermally better but often not preferred in racing where we have a tendency to hit curbs and rocks at 120mph. Also steel is easier to make baffles and trap doors with. Notice that we DID say we will have an aluminum pan also.
This a a VR6 Alu pan for comparison.










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 5:09 PM 3-25-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Maybe you should make it from Titanium...couldn't resist. It would
obviouslt work but the cost would be insane!!!
Thanks for all the great work Bill.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

You wanna talk about difficult fabrication? You can't bend titanium easily.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_If the fully modded pan is as effective as our custom 4 cyl pans have been we expect to see ~5% improvement in power output. That's 20 free horsepower on the stage 1 motor from oil control alone!

Is this that _new math_ that I have been hearing about?


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Is this that _new math_ that I have been hearing about?









Lol, I guess so. I think they need to return their modeling software that returns 200 x .05 = 20








Just kidding Bildon, I'd definitely be interested in a pan if it works as well as you think it should http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote »_ the only downside is rocks can go through it.









If you have no idea how to drive... I've got a 2'' drop, just the standard oem plastic skidpan, and lived in a hicktown with the sh!ttiest roads imaginable only to have minor scratches to report...and more debris on South FL roads than one can imagine.


_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 9:37 PM 3-25-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
That pan doesn't look right. Is it from a VR5 ?
Under heavy braking and acceleration the oil on that pan will walk right up the sides and into the crank. I dont see any real baffles. Just small "guides" to push oil toward the pump pickpup. Also, that pan has partial windage trays but no scrapers.
Aluminum is thermally better but often not preferred in racing where we have a tendency to hit curbs and rocks at 120mph. Also steel is easier to make baffles and trap doors with. Notice that we DID say we will have an aluminum pan also.
This a a VR6 Alu pan for comparison.









_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 5:09 PM 3-25-2007_

thats a Vr5 mk4.
But there are 3 pan out both for Vr5 and for Vr6 MK4.
the one you show is the "big" us spec.
mine got low spot for oil pick up.
and walls + REAL baffle.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

>> ~5% improvement in power output. That's 20 free horsepower
Ooops. I kept reading this thinking "what is their problem" until I finally saw what I typed... 5%
Until the final pan is developed obviously we cant know for sure any HP #s but I'd say that 5% is the least we'd see and that the complete oiling solution *could* yield as much as 20hp. We'll see.


----------



## EnIgMa '06 (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Have you considered a dry sump setup for the high stages?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (EnIgMa '06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EnIgMa ’06* »_Have you considered a dry sump setup for the high stages?

Considered, yes. I doubt there is anything that hasn't been at least considered. We're dealing with the reality that 99% of you are looking for a streetable or at least low maintenance track day solution.
Got a response from Grant. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Sounds like Grantley is as busy as we are. I have his cell phone # and will be giving him a ring when I have a chance. But he did confirm that the 12v motor they built was in fact 280BHP from 3L and 318bhp from 3.3L.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Although I think I already know the answer, did he give you the spec list on those engines?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

No he specifically mentioned that he's tired of people calling and picking his brain for info and then never ordering. Since we are a shop, he is talking to us however. We'll see if any of his developed components dovetail with what we're doing.


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Any updates on the CH developement?


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

not sure if you guys are still looking for dyno sheets of the old 3.1's but this guy could prolly hook it up if you are
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2804736


----------



## setaus (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Long thread - don't know if this has been mentioned yet. An often overlooked aspect for getting absolute maximum power out of a race engine is high/low injection. I am assuming the thing will be on some form of throttle bodied induction system. We have seen power gains of up to 5% in peak power without any loss of torque with the application of a fully mappable high/low injection system. The low injectors will typically sit somewhere near the throttle or even the original manufacturer's location and the high injectors will usually be just outside the trumpets (for convenience, ie no need for bosses to be welded into the runners) and inline with their axis. The only disadvantage is you need double the injectors and fuel rails, etc and an ECU that supports it







. Good luck with it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (setaus)*

You have an IM. Thx


----------



## 1996blackpassat (Aug 9, 2006)

back up


----------



## German VR6 (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: (1996blackpassat)*

you should be able to run a perfect power SMT-6 for those secondary injectors.


----------



## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

Any good ECU will be able to stage injectors...


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*

Anyone look at de-stroking the VR crank? I know displacement is king but I'm wondering if the high rev's coupled with the relatively long crank stroke and longer intake tract would be causing undesirable intake air velocities (ie: simply can't flow enough)?
Just thinking out loud.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_Anyone look at de-stroking the VR crank?

Yes, been discussed. There are flow limits in the head that need addressed. Higher revs would be choked off at this point.


----------



## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

*Foffa* is already showing that regrinds on stock cams and software to 7500-8000 rpm will make power... http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3062575
I don't think de-stroking the VR has much potential. More stroke with an R32 crank, on the other hand...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_*Foffa* is already showing that regrinds on stock cams and software to 7500-8000 rpm will make power... .

I'm still quite skeptical of those results. I've been around for a long while and the highest peaking VR6 I know of was only at 6500 and it made over 220whp.


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

yeah I think there is some wishful thinking going on in that thread. A pair of cams alone is not going to turn the vr into aB18c5 k20 ect. I wish it was that simple I would just buy a mk4 mani and those cams and be done with it.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

Lets try to keep this on topic so all of the people that wish to read up dont have to read through things that pertain to other topics.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I'm still quite skeptical of those results. I've been around for a long while and the highest peaking VR6 I know of was only at 6500 and it made over 220whp.

*bluegrape and I-need a VR6*
you just showed that you know *zero *about pulse tuning








reason VR6 MK3 is peaking at such low rpm is just plain runner lenght.
Nothing more due to the OEM ports are defenetly big enough.
Start to calculate.
Pulse tuning is nothing new.
Its used by every manufacturer and has been so for the last 100years







.
All measurement are the size they are for a reason
Valve area vs lenght from valve to plenum vs duration vs lift and you know 100% exactly were the motor will peak its power .
Basic physics.

_Modified by [email protected] at 8:00 AM 4-4-2007_


_Modified by [email protected] at 8:01 AM 4-4-2007_


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

so i'm still confused on this you are saying you can take any mk3 vr put a sri on it and with revised camshafts make peak power 7k..8k? It just seems like someone would have figured this out by now. I know you have the math, but I still need to see some real world numbers here.
Fatfree-this discussion is on topic.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_so i'm still confused on this you are saying you can take any mk3 vr put a sri on it and with revised camshafts make peak power 7k..8k? It just seems like someone would have figured this out by now. I know you have the math, but I still need to see some real world numbers here.
Fatfree-this discussion is on topic.









Just look at those crappy ITB´s just posted ....same lenght = f up
Just look at all companies claming "all cams work for all vr´s" seeling MK3 cams to mk4 motors.
They have no clue.
Most companies here on vortex are just nice hompages with a bunch of guys not knowing how to tune VR6.

Just look att the CRAZY TQ gain MK3 vs MK4 manifold.
That is just plain tuning with runner lenght.
MK4 GAIN = 175WTQ 3000-4000rpm 
MK3 is basicly putting down 130WTQ between 3000-4000rpm
Its a 45WTQ gain just by tuning for that rpm.
And jumping from 95Whp to 115WHP @ 3500rpm
*So is 20WHP and 45WTQ @ 3500rpm proof enough ?*VW didnt change squat.
Just tuned for a new specific RPM


_Modified by [email protected] at 8:11 AM 4-4-2007_


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

yes that is very impressive. but what about peak power. In my situation I road race my GTI and the occasional trip to the strip with friends. So midrange power is great and all but i'm not below 4-5k most of the time. could you explain how this is related to peak gains and how it can benefit us mk3 guys.?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

To get peak gain just tune for peak gain.
Many ways to do so.
1:Bigger ports 
2:Shorter port lenght
3:More lift
3:More duration.
This will alter gas speed and adjusting port lenght will push efficiency to the upper rpm.
Do it right and your gains will be great.
Calculate it incorrect and your car will have less hp 
The MK4 front plenum got shorter ports then MK3 and slightly more duration and lift.
Thats why it doesent fall of at 5700rpm.


_Modified by [email protected] at 8:34 AM 4-4-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

The car I was talking about with the ITB's has ~10" runners (trumpet to valve) and still peaks at 6500ish with 268s. Explain that, it's still not peaking at 7500 like you are saying it should.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_The car I was talking about with the ITB's has ~10" runners (trumpet to valve) and still peaks at 6500ish with 268s. Explain that, it's still not peaking at 7500 like you are saying it should.


You cant pulse tune the same way with ITB´S as with a plenum.
New rules aply for ITB tuning.
Its like rotary tuning or E85 tuning.
Throw everything you know out the window and start all over.
And those ITBs are incorrect.
They look like they are the same lenght so the engine is in total conflict between the cylinderbanks


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

>> You cant pulse tune the same way with ITB´S as with a plenum.
Yes you can. An intake pipe that terminates into the open air will have a very strong reflection. Pulses reflect from open ends just as strongly as from closed ends. The reflected wave does go back down the intake and DOES NOT escape into the air as some think.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> You cant pulse tune the same way with ITB´S as with a plenum.
Yes you can. An intake pipe that terminates into the open air will have a very strong reflection. Pulses reflect from open ends just as strongly as from closed ends. The reflected wave does go back down the intake and DOES NOT escape into the air as some think.


No im not talkin about air escaping .
But making the adjustment with ITBs will alter flow.
Just check out most Honda test dynos were they always have to add lenght to get the correct rpm requested.
Ive never seen any ITB´s respon as a normal plenum/Tb setup.
Ill try to find my friends trainee work on this subject. (if im aloud to post his school work)
Quite intresting facts


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
And those ITBs are incorrect.
They look like they are the same lenght so the engine is in total conflict between the cylinderbanks

Conflict? They are 'Independent'. 
Again. 2 engines in one.
>> Ive never seen any ITB´s respon as a normal plenum/Tb setup
Right. And you can't use a "normal" Euro plenum setup on a US Spec intake either. Nor a log mani setup on an OE manifold, nor an ITB setup on a plenum.
You can't just make comparisons with other cars. What happens on a Honda may not happen on a VW 16v and what happens on a 16v may not happen on a VR6. It's not just runner length and diameter that determine flow characteristics. In fact the cross-sectional area will be the strongest determining factor. I have yet to see anyone discussing this. And in the VR6 that CS Area changes drastically depending on what intake and what port we're talking about.



















_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:03 AM 4-4-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Conflict? They are 'Independent'. 
Again. 2 engines in one.
You can't just make comparisons with other cars. What happens on a Honda may not happen on a VW 16v and what happens on a 16v may not happen on a VR6. It's not just runner length and diameter that determine flow characteristics. In fact the cross-sectional area will be the strongest determining factor. I have yet to see anyone discussing this. And in the VR6 that CS Area changes drastically depending on what intake and what port we're talking about.


















Still its a 2 bank engine.
Put same lenght itbs on and there will be a conflict in diffrent TQ peak.
That OEM port is still not "to small" or incorrectly shaped.
Otherwise it shouldent be able to make such power.
Even though forced induction.
Ive not seen any single concept tuned in harmony.
Its just no ad this and ad that.
Why not make a concept and say we can rev 8500rpm
What do we need to get the engine to breathe above 8k.
And use that concept the whole way.
Most "big hp" na cars still got incorrect ported head by same companies not even knowing about runner lenght compensation.
And then keeping the OEM intake and putting in 304s and thinking that it will work.

But ill guess you can show my some pictures of concept tuned motors.
Ive seen Itb´s in the past here in europe with compensation and tuned for endurance race cars.
But Peak hp is not what they look for.
So please show me one setup.
I belive you will be the first with that setup but i have no clue what taking this so long to create.
Are you still working on the 2.0T´s ?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Are you still working on the 2.0T´s ?

Yes. And 8v VWs and suspensions, and machine work and customer inquiries, and orders and ... and ... and ...







Remember, this project is a lower priority.
Foffa, I must admit that I have a very hard time understanding your posts.
I think you have a lot of good ideas but it is very hard to understand what you are actually saying sometimes. If anyone else understands his post above please interpret it for me.








>> Put same length itbs on and there will be a conflict in diffrent TQ peak.
I think you dont mean "conflict" I think you mean "difference".
With an ITB intake the short intake runner cylinders will have potentially a higher output than the long intake runner cylinders as long as the exhaust does not produce an equivalent restriction (It shouldn't).
This imbalance in the 2 banks of cylinders will cause stronger first order torsional vibrations when we change from front bank to rear bank, but it will not reduce the ability of one bank to make power, therefore I would not characterize it as a "conflict".
These vibrations were a major concern to me a few weeks back. I had convinced myself that I'd be breaking cranks if the short runner intakes had a VE of 110-122% and then the other 3 a VE of ~0.8-1.1
However I have talked to some Automotive Engineers who dont think there will be any chance of damage if we keep it under 10,000 RPM


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Im from sweden ya know








Speak 5 languages but english is not my strongest one


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
That OEM port is still not "to small" or incorrectly shaped.
Otherwise it shouldnt be able to make such power.

How much power have you made from an unmodified head?
The long port above reduces to 26mm x 28mm at it smallest point, just before the turn. Just to make the math easy lets say a cross section at that point is a circle with a diameter of 27mm. (just over an inch)
So this is the area of our point of restriction. 57.4 cm^2 or about .89 .in^2
Now go pick your favorite formula and figure out what that will allow each cylinder to flow and then given the displacement what theoretical power we can produce. I've run a few #s and come up with conflicting info.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
How much power have you made from an unmodified head?
The long port above reduces to 26mm x 28mm at it smallest point, just before the turn. Just to make the math easy lets say a cross section at that point is a circle with a diameter of 27mm. (just over an inch)
So this is the area of our point of restriction. 57.4 cm^2 or about .89 .in^2
Now go pick your favorite formula and figure out what that will allow each cylinder to flow and then given the displacement what theoretical power we can produce. I've run a few #s and come up with conflicting info.

With boosted head 100Whp at every cylinder with oem cams and its still making more power so i havent found the limit yet.
And as for N/A tuning the bang for the buck aint worth it.
The point of restriction will move with runner lenght or lift/duration.
So what formula are you looking for ?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Foffa, I was talking about an ITB setup with a 10" total length on each cyl. The trumpets are staggered to get to that length. I'm sure you've seen it, it's Grant's off the shelf version. 
I *still* have yet to see a dyno of one of these 7.5k rpm + peak all motor VR6's you keep talking about. Forget about the actual number, find me a car that peaks there and I'll be happy. Again boost != n/a.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*









My intake manifold pulls extremely hard above 5000 rpms, but this is on a 24v, so it's probably not relevant


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 Flow Testing*

Here a short vid of one of our equipment tests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50UAgHlyCz4
Don't draw any conclusions from this test. It's simply a systems test.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:11 AM 4-5-2007_


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (Bildon Motorsport)*

damn, you guys must be spending a ton of cash on this project! I hope you get what you're looking for! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (nick526)*

1- completely pointless to have equal length intake manifold or exhaust manifold. Having all intake runners the same lenght and having equal length exhaust manifold will cause perfect airflow.
2- Increase intake runner volume, increase combustion chamber size, increase valve size, increase cam lift/duration. 
3- Lightening engine rotating mass, crank, rods, cam, pullies, clutch/flywheel
4-Ballancing engine rotating mass after lightening engine rotating mass. 
5- You can always do what motorcycle racers do. They have race engines. Your building an engine for a dyno run. The mechanics increase the gap between baring surfaces (from lets say .003" to .008") this reduces friction in the engine but dramaticly reduces engine life. Its a race engine so they dont care because after the race the engine is disassembled and rebuilt completely. This has prooven an easy 12-15whp gain on a 600-1000cc suzuki race engine. 
6- Total standalone engine management. You can imput your own values and fine tune.
long story short, theres lots of things that can be done. Its already know that you CANT reliably build a N/A 250whp daily driver vr6 12V engine. You CAN though build a 12V vr6 engine specifically for making maximum HP on a dyno run. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (Slimjimmn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slimjimmn* »_ increase combustion chamber size

That'll work nice.


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (need_a_VR6)*

How can you get proper flow with those itb's all being at the same height?


----------



## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (vdubjb)*

Thats the point, you cant. You only see equal length ITB's on V6 engines like ferrari engines where all the head runners are the same length.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (Slimjimmn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slimjimmn* »_ 

what makes you a pro? why can't we build a reliable N/A 250whp 12v vr6? 
if other engines can do it why can't ours? we're not going to need some ridiculous unstreetable compression or displacement increase.
it's all about flow. getting enough air in to burn the fuel to make the power. that's what it's all about. 
the VR is an excellent FI engine just like any other V6. it's always easier to make power when you are packing the air in there than having to pull it in naturally. what we have to do is make it so the VR pulls more air in on each intake stroke so we can burn more fuel. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (JRaptor)*

Equal length from the valve head ITBs.








So far this car is the highest hp stock block VR6.


----------



## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (need_a_VR6)*

and what kinda power would that be needavr?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (crzygreek)*

220-230whp somewhere.


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

that must sound the biz!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Equal length from the valve head ITBs.








So far this car is the highest hp stock block VR6.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thats the way to do it.
I think ive seen that one on youtube


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: VR6 Flow Testing ([email protected])*

heres the video...it sounds very nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbzLC8vSpog


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Just look at those crappy ITB´s just posted ....same lenght = f up
Just look at all companies claming "all cams work for all vr´s" seeling MK3 cams to mk4 motors.
They have no clue.
Most companies here on vortex are just nice hompages with a bunch of guys not knowing how to tune VR6.

Just look att the CRAZY TQ gain MK3 vs MK4 manifold.
That is just plain tuning with runner lenght.
MK4 GAIN = 175WTQ 3000-4000rpm 
MK3 is basicly putting down 130WTQ between 3000-4000rpm
Its a 45WTQ gain just by tuning for that rpm.
And jumping from 95Whp to 115WHP @ 3500rpm
*So is 20WHP and 45WTQ @ 3500rpm proof enough ?*VW didnt change squat.
Just tuned for a new specific RPM

_Modified by [email protected] at 8:11 AM 4-4-2007_


So would swapping Mk4 cams + intake onto a Mk3 motor be a reasonable performance upgrade to get the early-on power increase?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (djsheijkdfj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djsheijkdfj* »_

So would swapping Mk4 cams + intake onto a Mk3 motor be a reasonable performance upgrade to get the early-on power increase?

Yes. Those two items plus the thinner headgasket to increase compression from ~10.1 -> ~10.5 should be all you need. You'd also need a controller to run the MkIV manifold switchover rod actuator. You could use a simple RPM switch, but the MkIV programming has hysteresis to prevent flutter at the critical RPM point - always a good idea.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*

That controller operates on vacuum, correct?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (djsheijkdfj)*

>> MK3 is basicly putting down 130WTQ between 3000-4000rpm
hmmm








Our bone stock ABV 2.9L (Alu OE manifold) with just a tad more compression (.5cr) custom ECU tuning and and a CAI did 150 to 180 ft/lbs between 3k-4k RPM depending on which day we're talking about. The worst run was 170wtq at 4100 RPM.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

My old 2.8 bone stock with intake and exhaust put down 130wtq at 3k just like most do. It's a crappy range to take a reading as that's where the car is just about to go open loop. Right after that it jumps. It's almost 150wtq by 4k.
Bill, did you change the open/closed loop switch point with your custom tune?


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 11:05 PM 4-8-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Bill, did you change the open/closed loop switch point with your custom tune?

Doesn't run any OXS so no closed loop map.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_My old 2.8 bone stock with intake and exhaust put down 130wtq at 3k just like most do. It's a crappy range to take a reading as that's where the car is just about to go open loop. Right after that it jumps. It's almost 150wtq by 4k.
Bill, did you change the open/closed loop switch point with your custom tune?

_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 11:05 PM 4-8-2007_

No its the best place to take areading MK3 vs MK4 because the long runners rear plenum are tuned for 3000-4000rpm peak.
And the short ones are just killing the MK3 up top also.
But to show the strenght of tuning lenght 3-4000rpm is were to look on the mk4 vs mk3 dynos comparision.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

If I were to do a dyno with the O2 unplugged and plugged in you'd see about a 10-20wtq difference at 3k. How's that a good comparo?
No O2 loop is why Bill's tq is nice and high there.








The jump at 3500 isn't from anything but the closed to open switch.


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 1:46 PM 4-9-2007_


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Bill, have you gotten any feedback from hayward performance as to the itb's they were developing a few years back


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VR SEX)*

He posted here back on pg 10 and maybe earlier. We spoke with him and he has a prototype but the market wasn't there so he "shelved" the plan.


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

did you get any further information out of it, or was the plan shelved because r&d went no where/ no working prototype or was there a working prototype with any documented gains?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VR SEX)*

>> or was the plan shelved because r&d went no where
No. As I said. There was no demand. The VW crowd wont pay for development of a ITB setup. Unless you find somebody to do the work for free, you're looking at about $10,000.
Grant BTW has only sold a couple of his ITB kits in the US. They would like to sell more. We'll import them if you want them.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

The common trend I notice with the VW community is that people b!tch and moan about not having parts x,y,z for our cars and then when somebody steps up and builds it, we complain about the price and nobody buys anything.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

so what's involved in an ITB setup, the throttle bodies, linkage, manifold to bolt em up and then a tune. 
the stock ecu can't even be tuned for ITB's can it?


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_
the stock ecu can't even be tuned for ITB's can it? 

Nope. And standalone runs a pretty penny.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_so what's involved in an ITB setup 

100's of hours of engineering, fabrication, casting, machining, mistakes, rework, prototypes, testing, more testing..... THIS IS JUST LABOR. 
*Buy a GRANT ITB* setup and dont waste the space on this thread discussing how cheaply you can make an ITB setup from some MotoGuzzi parts you found!


----------



## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (VR SEX)*

I spent a lot of time designing the basic manifold for an ITB system for the vr6, very compact, tight little package and fitment etc, etc.

But when it comes down to VW people putting down money, forget it!!
I had alot of people email and call me,
but not one would buck up,
and I'm not going to spend my money,
so I can give the product away.
But, it doesnt matter until the 12 valve cylinderhead is made to flow alot more air, until then, it's a waste of time.
Designing an ITB system is not rocket science.
Displacement per cyl, rpm, valve sizing, port sizing, 
tuned length for power band 
and related/relevent info gathered from other projects.
With the VR6, it comes down to packaging, (very tight packaging)
and I have not seen any company or individual package an ITB system correctly for the VR engine,
That is why I wanted to cast the basic manifold for the VR. 
Because trying to fab it everytime would just not be cost effective.
Casting requires patterns, and that costs big money.
The long port would get a tapered straight port and the short port would have to go from round to vertical oval while going thru a curve at the manifold to head interface, not something I want to do as a welded part, and then the distortion from welding, Forget it,
(casting only).
But hey whatever you want, if someone will pay you for it.
LHP
http://www.haywardperformance.com


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
100's of hours of engineering, fabrication, casting, machining, mistakes, rework, prototypes, testing, more testing..... THIS IS JUST LABOR. 
*Buy a GRANT ITB* setup and dont waste the space on this thread discussing how cheaply you can make an ITB setup from some MotoGuzzi parts you found!
















of course i know what's involved in all the custom fabrication, i was just stating the obvious parts i knew it needed.
i personally don't think ITB's are the way to go, i think we can pull off 250whp without having to go that far. i would be completely satisfied w/ a streetable 250whp.
anything new Bill?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_anything new Bill?

Working on getting the test pressure controller to stabilize. Right now I'm having to constantly fiddle with it and that is slowing things down. I want the test pressure to be held dead constant so I can reproduce the same #s to within 1% from test to test.
Also waiting for the custom made head adapter to arrive from Superflow.
(we had to have a special bore made as none of the others were correct)








Did run a little test this weekend and played with a few things.
*NOTE !!* We are still changing some things on this new bench. *Don't attach much meaning to the specific #s here. Just look at the trends.* Once we get the bench totally tweaked, we'll be able to get very close to perfectly accurate #s. 








*Lift: *
We measured flow at every 1/10th of an inch. Stock head did not go all the way to .5" (12.7mm) due to collision with valve seal so it was not measured.
*Pressure:*
This is the test pressure that the data acquisition system actually measured. Eventually I will have this so that it holds steady at a chosen test pressure (usually 28" of water) However for now, we let the system do the math and calculate the CFM on the fly.
*ACFM:*
CFM corrected for air density, calculated by user inputs to temp and baro pressure.
*SCFM:*
CFM calculated to a standard air density of .075 lbs/ft^3. This is usually used for comparisons from test to test, bench to bench. It provides the best "average" test results for any given air density.
*[email protected]":*
Since we not yet flowing at a constant 28" test pressure I converted the CFM at each test pressure to what it would be IF we were pulling a consistent 28". 10" or 28" is what all of us use to compare flow #s. 28" is more common. 
[email protected]" = ACFM * √ (28/Measured Press)
Theor. HP:
This is the *theoretical HP* that can be achieved from a given CFM.
These #s are of course only possible in an engine of F1 caliber efficiency.
Our will be MUCH lower.. but it's fun to see the theoretical dream #s anyway.








HP = .257 * ([email protected]" water) * Number of Cylinders
Notes:
We flowed 2 heads both with and without the lower manifold.
Only one "short" port was flowed (with no radiused inlet) on each head.
Notice on the bone stock head (#1) we actually lost some CFMs when we took the lower mani off. (mainly due to us flowing it with no radius at all on the port mouth) But this could also indicate that the lower manifold on a small port head is not restrictive at all.
On the ported head that needs more CFMs, we did lose 34 cfm with the manifold attached.

Here is a good wiki on flow benches for those who want to know a little more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_flow_bench 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:09 AM 4-10-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, glad you're making progress.
Are the flow numbers all from the same long or short port? I'd be interested to see if the stock lower was only a restriction on either the long, or more likely, the short port in both stock and ported/big valve head form.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Are the flow numbers all from the same long or short port? 

Oh I left out that one little bit of info didn't I ?








The short port was tested on both heads. When we're ready to do this with a high level of precision we'll be testing everything.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Yeah a little important







I'd also be nice to have a point between .400 and .500" lift that's the same as max lift for the bigger hydro cams. Something like .440 or .445 would be nice to have just in case the flow isn't linear between the points.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

After each test you'll have more data than you want


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Bill, glad you're making progress.
Are the flow numbers all from the same long or short port? 

The longs do not flow as well as the shorts. But you know this. It's actually obvious just be eyeballing them.








The optimum intake port is a straight shot right at the back of the valve.
A port to valve angle of no greater than 50 degrees is the target. Easy to achieve with the short ports... not gonna happen with the long ports. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Something approaching the white line here will be tried in order to reduce the port to valve angle.








Again, we're really building 2 motors here... Two Vr3s. 
The key with porting is increasing flow without separating the fuel from the air. Any abrupt changes in port shape or cross sectional area are bad news. That's why the sharp angles are bad. At the high velocities a race engine works at, fuel separation becomes a bigger issue.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_The longs do not flow as well as the shorts. 

Due to an email I got I thought it would be good to clarify ...This comment refers to heavily ported ports. 
I should probably also add that the long ports flow as well as the shorts do in stock configuration. This should be obvious as VW had designed them this way. Where they start to become restrictive is when you start to go past simple "cleanup porting" and start to make big #s with the short ports. Relative to that, the longs will fall behind. 
What we dont have is the data to say exactly how much and where this occurs. But we will. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

No such thing as too much data. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

so what happened to the guy working on the super light drive train parts that worked for a component company?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Zoso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zoso* »_so what happened to the guy working on the super light drive train parts that worked for a component company?

...who me?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*
















Gotta love those email notifications


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
...who me?









Yeah you. Cough up some updates


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_















Gotta love those email notifications









Actually, I've been hovering for quite a while.








....updates? Its more like I need someone to cough up some cash!!








I think I may have some coming soon.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
....updates? Its more like I need someone to cough up some cash!!










That's hilarious. I was going to reply FOR YOU and say that exact thing!


----------



## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

Start a PayPal fund: *The VR6 Project*

I hope to benefit from all this someday... someday soon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

and, I was thinking of posting anyway... but with all the talk of Foffa's cam profiles and tuning for peak torque, I think what the concept is would be tuning both the front and rear cylinder banks to peak at the same RPM, instead of peaking at different RPM... that way the actual peak torque/power produced would be higher overall compared to having two separate torque-power/RPM peaks.
That's just my interpretation of the subject to date, for what it's worth. I could be 180* off, but that's my Swedinglish translation for you. (and if you do have this thread set for e-mail notification, sorry for clogging your in-box)


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VR6ix)*

>> but that's my Swedinglish translation for you.
Thanks. I've tried to communicate with Frederik but even though I speak 3 languages too, his Swedenglish always leaves me baffled. 
His initial premise of taking the asymmetric cam profiles that VW engineered in the mk4 VR6s and extrapolating that into a performance cam set is a great idea for those running the mk4 intakes or those running a log manifold with equal length manifold runners.
A lot of the other "data" surrounding his project seems dubious







but I will wait to pass judgment on it as I think much of the confusion is on this end...again due to the language barrier.


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (VR6ix)*

hey i have another brilliant solution (as usual).
Here it comes, ready?
Ok use the short runners for intake and long runners for exhaust








You would have to have 3 intakes (short) on one side and 3 intakes (short) on the other.
And 3 exhaust (long) on one side and 3 (long) on the other.
That would require a custon ontake and exhaust (which would wrap around the engine)
This would also require a new set of cams... since the valves would open at the wrong time. 
Another problem I see with this would be valve size differences (i guess the short-port exhaust valves would have to be enlarged to match the intake on the other side.)
Would the gains from this amount of work be significant? Probably not.
But is it possible though?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (BiSiE)*

Not possible .... think about it for at least a week before you respond.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Probably impossible too, but being able to run canted valves on the long-port intakes would eliminate that nasty 90 deg. turn. 
Of course then you'd need rocker arms running off the cam lobes on those cylinders, flycut pistons, welded & remachined head to accomodate the angled valve seats and guides.......


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

i have a question, couldn't you guys balance the difference in lengths of the intake ports by making them differenet radii rather then making longer and short ones? I know i read from bizimoto's website while he studied fluid dynamics that u can make 2 pipes flow the same while having one different radii/diameter and composed of bends.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

>> difference in lengths of the intake ports by making them differenet radii rather then making longer and short ones?
I assume you are talking about the intake manifold runners and not the cylinder head ports? 
The head ports are already balanced with totally different CSA's. 
Balancing the external manifold volume and velocity is easy.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
>> difference in lengths of the intake ports by making them differenet radii rather then making longer and short ones?
I assume you are talking about the intake manifold runners and not the cylinder head ports? 
The head ports are already balanced with totally different CSA's. 
Balancing the external manifold volume and velocity is easy. 


intake manifold is what iam talking about yes. not in the head, what iam getting at is other then length is there a way to balance flow


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_intake manifold is what iam talking about yes. not in the head, what iam getting at is other then length is there a way to balance flow

Yes, from a pure flow rate perspective, mass flow rate = density x area x velocity. However, this doesn't accomodate the wave properties of air. I don't know what other practical ways (besides changing length and possible the cam compenstation, which I'm still a bit iffy on...) that you could compensate for the runner length. Wait, I take that back, sound waves travel faster in water than air, so make the rear three cylinders run on water, and you could probably keep similar runner lengths... you'd only have to fuel a 1.4l motor too








Bildon, can we run with this... lol










_Modified by leebro61 at 11:27 PM 4-11-2007_


----------



## setaus (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Yes you can change the effective runner length somewhat by adjusting the flow velocity. This is because compared to a stationary medium waves will travel faster downstream and slower upstream.
For a round trip the effective length of a runner is L * c^2/(c^2-v^2) where c is the speed of sound, v is the instantaneous flow velocity, and L is the physical length (adjusted for open end/trumpet effect, as usual). You could buy or write a decent engine software package to do the integration because v is instantaneous and the whole thing needs to be evaluated over many time slices and with consideration to all operating parameters of the engine.
But the point is that the effective runner length is longer for smaller area ports. This was probably considered by VW in the VR6 design, to get the VE for all cylinders to track each other.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (setaus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *setaus* »_
But the point is that the effective runner length is longer for smaller area ports. This was probably considered by VW in the VR6 design, to get the VE for all cylinders to track each other.


Very interesting info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (setaus)*

Good to see some "thinkers" in here








So... we just got back from Miami where we took the new GTI and set the fastest race lap and ran 1 and 2nd for much of the race. Then one of the RX8s decided to dive bomb us unsuccessfully and knocked the toe of of the front....wound up 7th. But the GTI is back... and ready for a win now.
However this has nothing to do with VR6s...so ... later in the week we'll get back to this project. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I was there cheering you guys on from the stands http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
sorry for the offtopic
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Bump*

Should have come over and said "Hi"
OK the head adapter is installed... we're also going to install more motors so we dont have to do it later and potentially skew all the data collected. Better to do it now.


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

oh nicey, now you gotta start testing competitors heads, lol.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (vdubjb)*

Oh now that wouldn't be very nice








Actually we already have heads here from 3 other "shops".


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*

Super flow porn!
Could you please do a test with the plenum on just to see how much each MK3 runner differ from eachother


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Could you please do a test with the plenum on just to see how much each MK3 runner differ from each other

That will be tough. There is no easy way to open the valves with the plenum in place. I have a stepped block I made that can do it but it slows the whole process way down. I'll see what I can come up with.
Also, I need an mk4 lower plastic manifold. If anyone can send me one I'd appreciate it.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
That will be tough. There is no easy way to open the valves with the plenum in place. I have a stepped block I made that can do it but it slows the whole process way down. I'll see what I can come up with. 

Why not install a camshaft and rotate it? Make an indexed mark to identify how much lift the valve has at 'x' point of rotation.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump (KingVR)*

Easier said than done. 
To do a test of plenum alone we really only need the valve in 1 position, near full lift. I have a stepped block that will work for that.
Having to move the head for each test to get to another "cylinder" makes this a bit of a pain.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*

...so, have a _stepped block_ on each intake/cylinder combination to set the valve at it's fixed lift. It wouldn't be any _MORE_ work than if you were testing each port in the head without the plenum/manifold, no?
[...edited for clarification]










_Modified by KingVR at 8:45 PM 4-23-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump (KingVR)*

Thanks for clarifying...
>>> so, have a stepped block on each intake/cylinder combination to set the valve at it's fixed lift. 
Correct that's what I'm going to do. Earlier I was referring to using a camshaft as being difficult. 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:34 PM 4-23-2007_


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*

I find it interesting that no one has ever tried to increase the plenum volume to test the effects... there was a article posted a while back where the author expressed his belief that the vr6 intake plenum was simply too small ... 
This hypothesis would seem to be supported by the fact that most will see a decrease of power when removing the stock air filter box for a cold air intake ... correct me if I'm wrong, but given the "open box" that the filter sits it, it sorta acts like a secondary plenum of sorts...? it would seem ... 
Somewhere I've read an explanation of the ideal plenum size for a given displacement... right now I can't remember what that would be ... maybe some of the engineering genious's could lend a brain cell ...


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump (ExtremeVR6)*

>> it sorta acts like a secondary plenum of sorts...? 
Nah, it's on the other side of the TB. 
>> most will see a decrease of power when removing the stock air filter box for a cold air intake ... 
That's probably because most dont improved the situation. It must be totally shielded from heat and given a cool air stream to feed it. Also the filter element must be low restriction. Should have a nice radius to the tube as well. We used 3" smooth alum. tubing and spent a lot of time developing a nice large radius to the TB. Saw consistent gains.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> it sorta acts like a secondary plenum of sorts...? 
Nah, it's on the other side of the TB. 
>> most will see a decrease of power when removing the stock air filter box for a cold air intake ... 
That's probably because most dont improved the situation. It must be totally shielded from heat and given a cool air stream to feed it. Also the filter element must be low restriction. Should have a nice radius to the tube as well. We used 3" smooth alum. tubing and spent a lot of time developing a nice large radius to the TB. Saw consistent gains.


Even though its on the other side of the TB, when the throttle is wide open the whole intake system comes into play and _could_ be considered a secondary plenum. Some engines like some 2.4L Mitsubishi units have tertiary plenums to tune for particular sound frequencies and reduce cabin noise.
Even if the tuning implications are minimal, it still does have an effect. I believe the noise that a short-ram intake is evidence enough


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

- edit - 
seems people took that post the wrong way, it's removed. 


_Modified by billyVR6 at 11:00 AM 4-24-2007_


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Yeah come on Bildon, lets get some drama going on in here like the R32 forum................jk


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
when the throttle is wide open the whole intake system comes into play and _could_ be considered a secondary plenum.

Some *"could"* consider it a lot of things but the fact is a plenum is something quite different that an intake muffler. Plenums by definition are areas of slightly higher than atmospheric pressure. Also, once the reflection from the back of the valve travels back out the runner, the very first area of significantly increased area it hits is where all your pulse tuning *ends. * 
>> Even if the tuning implications are minimal, it still does have an effect.
Yes, you may see power changes due to air velocity or volume by altering other components upstream, they will not be the type of changes that you would see at "the" plenum. 
I guess we need to be careful about who is calling what a plenum. Mitsu may call them plenums but I'm not sure that is technically correct.
One of the reasons you see World Challenge cars for example design such huge air boxes is because they are trying to get the throttle body to 'see' an intake charge that is as close to atmospheric as possible and because a larger volume of air heats slower than a small one. But it's still not a plenum by def. .... IOW, higher than atmospheric.
good discussion.. corrections are always welcomed. If there is one thing I've learned in my time on this planet... it's that "The more you learn about something, the more you realize you dont know it all!" If you think you know it all ... then you dont know shi#


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*

less talk more HP







.......


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Bump (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_less talk more HP







....... 

Yes, when has thinking ever got anybody anywhere!


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bump (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
Yes, when has thinking ever got anybody anywhere!
















Are you sure you don't drive a Chevy?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VR SEX)*

just thought I would put these images up for Bill:








_(dry sumped 12V VR6)_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*









Hmm... Interesting...


----------



## VWRacer21 (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

wow who makes that setup


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
Hmm... Interesting...

Especially the AC compressor.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

A/C ?








And I dont like the location of the pumps. Sort of defeats one of the purposes of running a dry sump. Perhaps this is a drag car were CG & clearance is not important?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Even though its on the other side of the TB, when the throttle is wide open the whole intake system comes into play and _could_ be considered a secondary plenum. Some engines like some 2.4L Mitsubishi units have tertiary plenums to tune for particular sound frequencies and reduce cabin noise.

I thought about this again today. I think what you may have been referring to is the airbox as not a plenum but as the "end of the line" for the intake system... A low pressure area or at most a 1 atmosphere pressure area.
At WOT as you have eluded to there will be 3 negative pressure pulses per revolution through the TB and down the intake tubing.... when it reaches the air box (open atmosphere) it will "reflect" and create a return pulse ... so just like the pulses from the valve to plenum, there are pulses from TB to air cleaner or air box or whatever is at the end of our tube. .... makes me wonder what the exact effect of the MAF housing is since it's a somewhat significant change in diameter and has a physical blockage.








However before you can do any of this work... you need to determine what the intake runners are going to look like. And before that we need to determine what the ports are going to look like.... and before that we need to determine ....








I know I know... just do it







Let me get some more vacuum motors in this thing and we'll be rolling along with mucho developmento


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*

Intuitively the intake runners are going to have the most significant impact (actually the part closest to the valve probably has the highest impact) so it makes sense to start there. All I'm saying is that you can't ignore the rest of the intake system whether we're calling it a plenum, a resonator, or something else. Same goes for exhaust which I think more folks are familiar with. Everything can be tuned for a power peak - if designed carefully, then all the power peaks of the individual components can coincide (constructive interference) thus giving a higher total peak number rather than the destructive interference of an un-tuned system.
However the big question is the bang-per-buck ratio for all this and thats very hard to predict.



_Modified by phatvw at 12:03 PM 4-25-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Bump (phatvw)*

You are exactly right and that is the true definition of tuning.
With a "tuned" intake, engine and exhaust you really can have a sum greater than it's parts.
Our goal is to have a pressure wave hit the back of the valve after it starts to open that is 5 to 10 psi strong! 10 is probably dreaming but 5 is realistic.


----------



## ridefuel (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Bump (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_You are exactly right and that is the true definition of tuning.
With a "tuned" intake, engine and exhaust you really can have a sum greater than it's parts.
*Our goal is to have a pressure wave hit the back of the valve after it starts to open that is 5 to 10 psi strong! 10 is probably dreaming but 5 is realistic.*

Sounds were gonna see mini supercharger pressure without acctually having a supercharger







gives me chills


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_








Hmm... Interesting...


Completely pointless........ the pump hangs just as low if not lower than the factory pan would.....


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (djsheijkdfj)*

That's a cast dry sump pan so somebody made a bunch of them. But who ???


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ But who ???









Same guy who races with the AC on. Watch for the trail of condensate water..


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Same guy who races with the AC on. Watch for the trail of condensate water..









maybe he routed the ac vent into the intake boot for maximum performance!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (inopias)*

Energy is still lost. Go read Newton.








The A/C compressor is a big loss when engaged.
Interestingly though, AC will be required at LeMans this year.
But that's due to a driver stamina/safety/air quality issue...or some such nonesense. 
Hell we drank light weight motor oil and bathed in brake cleaner during the 24 hour races I've run in. Drivers are wussies these days.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_That's a cast dry sump pan so somebody made a bunch of them. But who ???









I've got more pics of the guy that did that. He made a wood model and cast his own sump








I think it was a one off shot.
Found the pics
Original source: http://fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/...rc=ph 









































_Modified by James 93SLC at 11:47 AM 4-26-2007_ 


_Modified by James 93SLC at 11:51 AM 4-26-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

We've started to make this part about 10x. Someday I'll do it.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Hell we drank light weight motor oil and bathed in brake cleaner during the 24 hour races I've run in. Drivers are wussies these days.









I think you've got it backwards - its not that drivers are wussies, its that lawyers aren't, lol!


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Hey Bildon, any updates?


----------



## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: (nick526)*

x2, we want our crack


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (crzygreek)*

Trust me... the silence is a good thing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Trust me... the silence is a good thing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

it means work is being done....good things come to those who wait...i've already started saving money for when this project yields some very amazing products.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif bildon for stopping me from going and getting a 1.8T


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

Average_CSA = Port_Volume_CC / (Port_CenterLine_Length * 16.387)
Port_Volume_CC = Average_CSA * Port_CenterLine_Length * 16.387
Port_CenterLine_Length = Port_Volume_CC / ( Average_CSA *16.387 )
FPS = ( Flow_CFM * 2.4 ) / Average_CSA
Flow_CFM = Average_CSA * FPS * .4166667
Average_CSA = ( Flow_CFM * 2.4) / FPS
We're just doing a lot of # crunching this week. Trying to come up with 3 or 4 predetermined port (length / taper / volume) shapes to test. Part of this is to determine how accurate these engine simulation programs are compared with what we see on the flow bench and dyno.
Hang in there... it's really busy here this month but we're trying to squeeze the VR project in where we can.
One of the things I'm working on is an exhaust header, YES those useless lumps that we all know wont work on a VR6... Or will they


----------



## NASAdriver (May 10, 2007)

*Re: (JRaptor2000)*

Changin the subject. How much work would it take to run the 24V motor in 2000MK4 GTI. I am running NASA HPDE Events and want some more power.







excuse me for being new to the site.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (NASAdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NASAdriver* »_Changin the subject. How much work would it take to run the 24V motor in 2000MK4 GTI. I am running NASA HPDE Events and want some more power.







excuse me for being new to the site.

Why don't you start a new thread?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_One of the things I'm working on is an exhaust header, YES those useless lumps that we all know wont work on a VR6... Or will they










In my experience they all lost power on cars making from 180-230whp. Improve the intake breathing and it might be a different story.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
In my experience they all lost power on cars making from 180-230whp. Improve the intake breathing and it might be a different story. 

hmm, i thought porting the sotck manis and getting the bigger downpipe is the best? or maybe making the downpipe 3 inches at the collector..


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

The reason why a header doesn't make power is because the inner diameter isn't matched to the gasket. In fact, the OBX header that I compared to a stock manifold had smaller ports than stock. It's not worth it to get one and then have to have it ported. Since it's a pipe header and not a cast piece, there isn't a lot of material to grind away.
Keep in mind, this is an OBX header I'm talking about. I haven't seen a Supersprint or Genie header in person so I can't compare them.


_Modified by VertigoGTI at 3:43 PM 5-10-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

>> The reason why a header doesn't make power is because the inner diameter isn't matched to the gasket.
Wrong
I should not have brought this up in the general forum.








BTW this







isn't really directed at you Vertigo. But at the rehashing of what's been known for a long time. The point of this is to learning something new.. if one doesn't experiment then one never learns.
--- Single Primary Pipe Specs -- for 2.976 Liters from 4000 to 6500 RPM
Diameter MM= 33.496 to 36.671 Length= 908.1 to 1016.6 MM long
--- 2-Step Primary Pipe Specs ---
1st Dia. MM= 33.496 Length= 454.1 to 508.3 MM
2nd Dia. MM= 36.671 Length= 454.1 to 508.3 MM
--- 3-Step Primary Pipe Specs ---
1st Dia. MM= 33.496 Length= 454.1 to 508.3 MM
2nd Dia. MM= 36.671 Length= 227.0 to 254.1 MM
3rd Dia. MM= 39.846 Length= 227.0 to 254.1 MM
--- Header Collector Specs (Conventional Straight Tube) ---
Diameter MM= 63.500 to 69.850 Tuned Lengths= 505.0 best and 252.5 or 505.0
--- Header Collector Specs (Megaphone or Diffuser Cone Shape) ---
Diameter MM= 50.800 taper to 76.200 Megaphone/Diffuser Length= 505.0 MM
Best HP/TQ Tuned Collector Lengths= 505.0 , 1009.9 , 2019.9 , 4039.8 MM long
Worst HP/TQ Loss Collector Lengths= 757.5 , 1514.9 , 3029.8 , 6059.7 MM long
Note-> all Pipe Diameters are OD and based-off 1.588 MM Pipe thickness
---- Primary Pipe's Harmonics ----
1st Harmonic = 3953.6 MM long ... typically never used
2nd Harmonic = 1507.9 MM long ... longest recommended
3rd Harmonic = 908.1 MM long ... highly recommended , best Torque Curve
4th Harmonic = 637.0 MM long ... shortest recommended

---- Collector's Harmonics (includes Intermediate, Muffler , TailPipe) ----
1st Harmonic = 4039.8 MM long ... longest with Mufflers and TailPipes
2nd Harmonic = 2019.9 MM long ... longest recommended with Mufflers
3rd Harmonic = 1009.9 MM long ... more bottom-end Torque
4th Harmonic = 505.0 MM long ... highly recommended , best Torque Curve
5th Harmonic = 252.5 MM long ... reduced Torque , more top-end HP sometimes


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:35 PM 5-10-2007_


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill..
Regardless of the 'general' forum there are lurkers such as myself watching this thread simply because of technical based discussion even though some of us aren't building (or even own) a 12v Vr6.
Hell, I saw you post on eng-tips.com about this project as I lurk there also for the occasional good tech post.
So...go on with whatever it is that you know about header design. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

you guys are ridiculous....props to anyone working on this


----------



## Preston Meyers (Dec 22, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
One of the things I'm working on is an exhaust header, YES those useless lumps that we all know wont work on a VR6... Or will they










Any concept of how much potential exists on the exhaust side? Curious as to what a properly designed exhaust package can provide. Also what application/software are you using for the header design paramaters you posted?


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Preston Meyers)*

you can only push out what you pull in....Bildon there are guys on here posting who've done the research....you may not want to believe it but some of the posters up above did extensive research and they found what i stated above.......i'm not trying to nay'say....i just want the intake side greatly re-design'd before you talk headers....you still havent proven much of anything intake side that hasnt been done before......so my general question is why header design before figuring out the real puzzle choking this motor???


_Modified by Corradokcid at 6:49 PM 5-11-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

>> why header design before figuring out the real puzzle choking this motor???
We're not designing a header yet. The numbers above are incorrect because they are based on incorrect port lengths. It was only posted to show how it will be done when the headers are designed. 
>> So...go on with whatever it is that you know about header design.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Been extremely busy guys .. not much happened with VR6 project this week. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
We're at Lime Rock next week with the Grand-Am Cup GTI so it wont be til after that we can continue. 
Good news is the first dedicated VR6 Project victim has begun to be prepped. Tear down started already.








Also progress has been made on the oil pan prototype. Shown here is a mockup with trap doors isolating an area around the pickup. Will also be adding a "guiding wall" similar to the late model Alu pans....to push oil toward pickup. What you cant see are the "lips" that are going to line the sides to stop oil from walking up the side of the pan and into the crank.
An oil return line has been added per your requests. And magnetic pan plugs will be standard.
On top of this we'll have the windage trays/screen shown earlier. No ETA on the final products yet..sorry.








Wossner VR6 parts. Rods look nice. But not much different that all the other H-beam knock offs out there.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Ill be at lime rock next week too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
also, I picked up 4 whp today by gasket matching my exhaust manis and welding the downpipe on the outside and grinding down the inside weld
the lower intake runner is next...hopefully I'll be be making 190+ tomorrow


_Modified by LowNotSlow at 9:40 PM 5-17-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

Can you post your 3 pulls prior and 3 pulls after please? (not because I dont believe it (I do) but because I would like to see people in this thread posting data when they claim HP gains. Even if you only have the full text output from the runs please post. 
Also, if this is what Vertigo was talking about I apologize! I thought he was talking about the gasket interfering with the exhaust flow at the head/primary interface only.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

right now my data is coming from a gtech which should be pretty accurate because it gave me the same baseline numbers as the last time I hit the rollers
baseline: 183hp 173trq
after exhaust mods: 187hp 178trq
so far I've gasket matched and smoothed the exhaust mani where it meets the head, smoothed where the mani meets the downpipe and ported out the restrictions in the downpipe (I should also mention that im not doing this all myself, my buddy Ian down at peroco in New Hartford is doing most of the work)
I'm going to get on the local dynapacks tomorrow after the intake runner is finished


_Modified by LowNotSlow at 11:27 PM 5-17-2007_


----------



## blowedGTI (Nov 24, 2004)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

just got my engine back Chris at European engine works... I'm looking to get 220whp/ 220wtp i going to dyno in a week or two

MOTOR: 3.1L 10:8:1 Compression
custom chip 
CCH Big Value Head with Schrick Internals 
Schrick 268 Cams
Schrick VGI 
Supersprint Headers
TT Exhaust and 42DD
Midnight Motorsport Airbath Intake
All VF Motor and Transmission Mounts
Custom Oil Cooler

TRANS: Quaife 6 Speed Transmission
South bend stg 1 Clutch with 11 Pound Flywheel
Peloquin Diff
_Modified by blowedGTI at 8:32 PM 5-31-2007_


_Modified by blowedGTI at 8:36 PM 5-31-2007_


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (blowedGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blowedGTI* »_just got my engine back Chris at European engine works... I'm looking to get 220whp/ 220wtp i going to dyno in a week or two

MOTOR: 3.1L 10:8:1 Compression
custom chip 
CCH Big Value Head with Schrick Internals 
Schrick 268 Cams
Schrick VGI 
Supersprint Headers
TT Exhaust and 42DD
Midnight Motorsport Airbath Intake
All VF Motor and Transmission Mounts
Custom Oil Cooler

TRANS: Quaife 6 Speed Transmission
South bend stg 1 Clutch with 11 Pound Flywheel
Peloquin Diff
_Modified by blowedGTI at 8:32 PM 5-31-2007_

_Modified by blowedGTI at 8:36 PM 5-31-2007_

damn! i would have ported the manis.. and what size valves?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (blowedGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blowedGTI* »_just got my engine back Chris at European engine works... I'm looking to get 220whp/ 220wtp i going to dyno in a week or two

You probably won't hit that torque even with the big motor.. and ditto on the manifolds. Most 3.1 builds struggle to hit much over 200.. mostly due to management.
That being said I ran a 13.4 on a stock block, head, and manifolds. So if you're just looking for fast and not necessarily power you don't have to do much.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
You probably won't hit that torque even with the big motor.. and ditto on the manifolds. Most 3.1 builds struggle to hit much over 200.. mostly due to management.
That being said I ran a 13.4 on a stock block, head, and manifolds. So if you're just looking for fast and not necessarily power you don't have to do much.









was your car completly guted or something when you hit thoe times?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

Nope it's mildly lightened. Drove it to the track, took the drivers seat out, aired the tires down and ran. Look around few posts for details.


----------



## blowedGTI (Nov 24, 2004)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

port the mani...i have a schrick mani that just as good
the vavle are 43mm
we will see in a week or two... 

_Modified by blowedGTI at 5:50 PM 6-1-2007_


_Modified by blowedGTI at 6:21 PM 6-1-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_ya sit on a bucket - or a milk crate ? ?









Bone stock 95 GTI heated cloth. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## killerrabbittruck (Apr 19, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I like what i see here, keep it coming http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Bone stock 95 GTI heated cloth. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

god wtf.. i only did 14.6 at 99 with my 3.1l and stock cams...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Weak VR)*

If you can trap 99 you can run quicker then that. Practice.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_If you can trap 99 you can run quicker then that. Practice.

yeah... i knew how to drive.. but i had like 2.2 60's.... ohh well to late now... i converted to the dark side


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_If you can trap 99 you can run quicker then that. Practice.

yea my friends talon ran a 13.4 @ 96mph. its all about that launch! i hate talons...


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

i trap 100 in my corrado..... all motor .....maybe vr6's are fast if they hook


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

please dont post this in this thread. there are A LOT of people watching it you can always PM or start your own thread


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

Thank you.
We'll be posting some new VR6 project info on a new section of our site soon.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

saw this in a post about motorstadt








apparently it is a 3.1L vr, with an interesting manifold, 272 cams, tuned. and making 244HP whp
and I still haven't dynoed my car, hopefully this week


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

interesting, but maybe possibly they should've added the head length difference into the manifold. wonder if it would've been better or worse


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

another pic


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

The 2-throttle body bolt design must be where the power comes from.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (djsheijkdfj)*

haha yea from what I heard the car was somewhat riced but it did make some power


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LowNotSlow* »_another pic









It looks like a crackhead built that...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
It looks like a crackhead built that...










I wanna see the dyno of that.
1:The runner compensation is cut out
2:Its not even stacks with tapprd runners due to the fact that a straight pipe flow like crap
Small angle is needed.
3:Overall distrubution to cylinders back in the intake 
4:The runner must be tuned for 2nd pulse or its just another TQ monster with no hp after 5500rpm









Post that dyno http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

wow if you look closely all the runners are slightly different lengths. wow....um....yea....nothing else to say....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JRaptor* »_wow if you look closely all the runners are slightly different lengths. wow....um....yea....nothing else to say....

yes but its 2long 3 short ,one long again


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yes but its 2long 3 short ,one long again

























_Quote, originally posted by *LowNotSlow* »_apparently it is a 3.1L vr, with an interesting manifold, 272 cams, tuned. and making 244HP whp


just read that...probably only really makes 44whp though with a manifold like that.










_Modified by JRaptor at 12:54 PM 6-4-2007_


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

im pretty skeptical of the 244whp myself but again i just saw this on vortex and was not actually at the show, we would have to consult someone who actually went to motorstadt


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

Lol, it almost looks like they shortened the middle runners to clear the oil dipstick! I can't think of any other reason why they appear shorter than the outside cylinders. I am wondering what sort of weld penetration they got with what appears to be a thin wall pipe. During the fabrication process, it is almost impossible to get a solid weld without a decent amount of burn through on the inside of the pipe. Some of those areas look pretty difficult to port out. All in all, i would much rather run a mk4 style manifold or modify a mk3 manifold if I needed my throttle on that side.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*VR6 ITB*


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 ITB (Bildon Motorsport)*








program on that must suck ass


----------



## killerrabbittruck (Apr 19, 2001)

*Re: VR6 ITB (fatfreevw)*

that is a nice looking setup there, i can't wait to see more


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 ITB (killerrabbittruck)*

By the angle it looks like Grant's setup.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: VR6 ITB (need_a_VR6)*

are the ibs going to run on a remapped motronic tune from jeff or is standalone going to be necessary?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 ITB (LowNotSlow)*

>> a remapped motronic tune from jeff or is standalone going to be necessary?
What's the difference?


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: VR6 ITB (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> a remapped motronic tune from jeff or is standalone going to be necessary?
What's the difference?


About $1500 and 10 hours of labor?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 ITB (maxslug)*

More like $2800 and 10 hours








We'll stick with the factory wiring and base ECU for now thank you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 ITB (Bildon Motorsport)*

So.. any PRELIMINARY results you can toss out there?


----------



## Bjowett (Jul 6, 1999)

*Re: VR6 ITB (need_a_VR6)*

Since you have the ITBs on there, why not go all out and try some C.V./suction piston type units? 


_Modified by Bjowett at 10:13 AM 6-8-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*New Flow Bench*

>> why not go all out
Fund it and we're game. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Our new bench is finally rockin with 8 motors (up from 1, then up from 4) and enough suction to pull the ..... never mind.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: New Flow Bench (Bildon Motorsport)*

Is it possible to test it with the intake on or do you just test it for the ITB kits ?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: New Flow Bench ([email protected])*

We're testing all sorts of things. Will publish it all when done.
A certain ECU expert here needs to get me a lower plastic manifold to complete the OE tests... you know who you are


----------



## Bjowett (Jul 6, 1999)

*Re: New Flow Bench (Bildon Motorsport)*

I'm up for purchasing the TB's, what size... I'll PM you.


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

*Re: New Flow Bench (Bjowett)*

I don't THINK this was posted up...for the $$ the numbers look kinda dismal if you ask me. 









Guys what is the lastes on the oil pan? Race season is 1/2 over!


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: New Flow Bench (jungle)*

what fuel did that car run?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: New Flow Bench (BiSiE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BiSiE* »_what fuel did that car run?

87 oct. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: New Flow Bench (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
87 oct. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

how is that possible with 14:1 compression








my guess is race fuel because i dont think its possible to tune a car with 14:1 compression to run on unleaded pump gas


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: New Flow Bench (WannabeVWguy)*

Definitely race gas, at least 104 octane. That was with a fairly stock intake manifold from what I remember though. Something holding it back.. something.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: New Flow Bench (need_a_VR6)*

Is this one of Bernd's dynos?
His later engine ran 15:1 & VP C-12 race fuel.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: New Flow Bench (Bildon Motorsport)*

Yes it's Bernd's and you can see that the dyno falls off right at 6100 just like a stock head car with little cams will do. Just doesn't fall off as fast.


----------



## EnIgMa '06 (May 13, 2004)

*Re: New Flow Bench (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Yes it's Bernd's and you can see that the dyno falls off right at 6100 just like a stock head car with little cams will do. Just doesn't fall off as fast.

Poorly tuned? Needs a different manifold?
I'm sorry, but that's approaching diesel compression and it's gotta be something besides the head, because if it's the head then that is just depressing that even a worked head cannot flow.


_Modified by EnIgMa '06 at 9:44 PM 6-18-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: New Flow Bench (need_a_VR6)*

His last engine also ran a 306 cam which is more like what you'd expect.
Who can find us figures from that motor?
Whats the HP claim on this?
85mm pistons. 
15:1 comp. 
12v block. 3074cc.
Ported head.
43.5mm intake
39mm exhaust.
306 Solid lifter cams.
Custom Exhaust. 6 to 2 to 1 header. 2.5" side output exhuast.
Custom cooling system.
Uses VP C-12 Gas
Dump the intake and this puppy should come to life.
http://i176.photobucket.com/al...0.jpg
Needs an intake tuned for high RPM flow and a real air box.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: New Flow Bench (Bildon Motorsport)*

A bucket breathing through a straw. I think he only got an honest 230whp out of the big cam motor.


----------



## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: New Flow Bench (Bildon Motorsport)*

I've been checking this thread every once in a while and see people talking about coating this and that, and rod ratio's too short or to long, blah, blah, blah.
It has and always will be airflow and compression that makes power,
Everything else is beside the point.
--You have to make the head flow acceptable amounts of air --
The last dyno example with big comp shows that the engine is just wanting/needing big airflow to come alive.
"Heres hoping Bildon Motorsport has the customer base,
to justify all their hard work in this area".
Because these heads are difficult to work on
at the best of times with the long hard to access ports.
LHP 
HaywardPerformance


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: New Flow Bench (LHP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LHP* »_I've been checking this thread every once in a while and see people talking about coating this and that, and rod ratio's too short or to long, blah, blah, blah.
It has and always will be airflow and compression that makes power,
Everything else is beside the point.
--You have to make the head flow acceptable amounts of air --
The last dyno example with big comp shows that the engine is just wanting/needing big airflow to come alive.
"Heres hoping Bildon Motorsport has the customer base,
to justify all their hard work in this area".
Because these heads are difficult to work on
at the best of times with the long hard to access ports.
LHP 
HaywardPerformance

Lance, you probably have more experience with VR heads than anyone else in this forum/thread. Any insight on your experiences? hurdles? trials and errors?


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: New Flow Bench (LHP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LHP* »_I've been checking this thread every once in a while and see people talking about coating this and that, and rod ratio's too short or to long, blah, blah, blah.
It has and always will be airflow and compression that makes power,
Everything else is beside the point.
--You have to make the head flow acceptable amounts of air --
The last dyno example with big comp shows that the engine is just wanting/needing big airflow to come alive.
"*Heres hoping Bildon Motorsport has the customer base,
to justify all their hard work in this area".*
Because these heads are difficult to work on
at the best of times with the long hard to access ports.
LHP 
HaywardPerformance

See bolded area. This is the biggest stumbling block in development of the vr6 head. Unless someone volunteers their knowledge and experience, and develpment costs (Ahem, Bildon), we ain't gonna see squat. It cost lots of $$$ to play. Simple as that.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: New Flow Bench (jungle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jungle* »_
Guys what is the latest on the oil pan? 

The biz we're partnering with on this got overwhelmed with other projects. They are currently using a water-jet to cut out the prototype model they are working on. Expected completion of these prototypes, mid-July. We expect to have something to sell in about two months from now, after we have a chance to fit some prototype models to various VR6 model years and test them. After that we'll be able to start on the Bildon full race pans once the basic pans are complete. No idea on price just yet.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*ITBs available*

OK contrary to our original plans we are starting to make some of the VR6 components available because... 
A) we're taking way too long and it's not fair to you to sit on all of this and
B] we have had some inquiries about parts from customers who want them now ... and...
C) there are some components that will not require extensive testing to know they will work...the only question is exactly how well.
So since we are trying to get VWV to respond to us about banner ads here...we want to support this site since it's been good to us... hopefully they wont wipe this off the forum if I suggest







that we have ITBs available right now. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
ITB kit includes, Manifold, Individual Tapered Throttles, HP, Unequal length trumpets, Filter box Back Plate, More HP, Filter box, Filter, Linkage kit, A bit more HP.
If seriously interested, please contact us at: http://www.bildon.com/catalog/about/contact.cfm


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*

is that simply a grant setup minus the software? might pick up a pair for my mk2


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITBs available (bluegrape)*

I thought it was at first glance but the Grant ones on Anthony's car were different. You can see there the throttle plates are all right behind the stacks, and the stacks sit much lower.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: ITBs available (need_a_VR6)*

dont forget that manifold gets "tipped" flat(vertically) when installed.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: ITBs available (fatfreevw)*









Wow that looks nice! I know it's slightly off topic, but is the ITB kit a butterfly throttle or a slide throttle?


----------



## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: ITBs available (VertigoGTI)*

that ITB setup does look nice. one question, what are you doing for management. that stopped my on my ITB project bc i did not want to go standalone, and having jeff @ c2 make a chip for me wasnt going to be cost effective either.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: ITBs available (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_








Wow that looks nice! I know it's slightly off topic, but is the ITB kit a butterfly throttle or a slide throttle?

Looks to be butterfly to me.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ITBs available (dubsrphat)*

>> what are you doing for management.
OE management can be made to run off the TPS (Alpha-N) and of course "Stand-Alone" is an option.
We don't have a engine running with ITBs right now. Please hold off on the questions related to the complete engines until we do the component analysis. 
And dont forget... plenums still have a place in the project.


----------



## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*

so i take it your itb setup will have a TPS built into it somehow...


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: ITBs available (-THROTTLE-)*


_Quote, originally posted by *-THROTTLE-* »_so i take it your itb setup will have a TPS built into it somehow...

I believe the Bosch Motronic system has a fallback/failsafe mode if TPS signal is not available. With some trickery, I reckon its possible to get a decent tune without TPS.


----------



## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: ITBs available (phatvw)*

thats what i thought. when i spoke to jeff @ c2 about doing a eprom for my car, he said id need to run either my maf or tps from my t/b. i didnt see the point of using the t/b, but he mentioned rig it so when im at part throttle so is the t/b, wot on the itbs is wot on the t/b, so it thinks its got the tps system. or, run my maf, but that would require an intake box over them, again, pointless imo. 
im sure theres a way it can be coded to run without the maf/tps. cam sensor maybe?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ITBs available (phatvw)*

You guys are talking about Speed/Density (a la Honda)
But to use ITBs we'll need to use Alpha-N 
A Speed/Density system also doesn't deal well with changes. You need different lookup tables for each engine type/mod. So a cam swap or a ported head might make the previous software & system unusable.
With Alpha-N the injection is controlled via a TPS vs. RPM table. An intake air temperature sensor is used to measure ambient air T and therefore estimate pressure. 
I've asked Jeff to pop in here and give his $.02 on what he can do with for a VR6 ITB system. 
>> an intake box over them, again, pointless imo.
Not pointless. You can get a colder denser air charge using an airbox over your thottles. And if it was done right, I guess you could run a MAF ..hmm hadn't thought of that until now. 
Kinda like this: http://www.terato.com/cars/Car...8.jpg



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 2:58 PM 6-25-2007_


----------



## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*

iirc jeff can set something up if you used a maf/air box. i understand you can get colder air and such...depends what youre looking to do..


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITBs available (-THROTTLE-)*

The MAF solution with the plenum is much cleaner from a tuning standpoint. With a tps only (alpha-n) tune any change to the engine means a retune. Could get expensive if you don't nail the setup on the first go.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*

A few things I'm doing lately may be useful here...
I am currently tuning an AEB 1.8T. 
This has an M5.9 ecu: Obd2, cable throttle.
Currently running a 4" MAF houisng and 630cc inj.
At idle and part throttle: airlfow is too low for the large MAF housing.
Fix: We added code so that now the ecu uses TPS for low load, and then
switchs to MAF when there is sufficient airflow. (Thanks Jacob)
This car runs TPS upto zero boost. (Cannot feel or measure the switch point)
Conclusion: its fairly easy to tune the Motronic to use TPS for 
load look-up. (Alpha-N)
The rest of the running features in the ecu operate as normal.
A few things to think about:
Removing/tossing the maf will make the tune hardware specific.
The stock obd2 throttle body needs to be ~somewhere on the car
connected to the throttle pedal to give feedback to the
ecu. I am not too interested in 'faking' all the signals in and out
of the Obd2 TB, so I'll push that back on you guys to get creative.








If Bill can build it I can tune it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Bill: Would ITB's put an ITS car out of ITS?









-Jeff


_Modified by Jefnes3 at 9:44 PM 6-25-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITBs available (Jefnes3)*

Jeff, why not just two TPS's one normally acting, the other reverse and then a small idle valve/resistor? I don't see why that wouldn't work well.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ITBs available (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Bill: Would ITB's put an ITS car out of ITS?









Heh, not as long as the hood is welded shut.







Actually we have another toy that we'll be testing these engines in. It's Golf 4 we're considering putting Kit Car bodywork on http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*

The wide fenders would make it look cute and I'm sure that's the look you're going for.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ITBs available (need_a_VR6)*

cute?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*

Like this:


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: ITBs available (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Jeff, why not just two TPS's one normally acting, the other reverse and then a small idle valve/resistor? I don't see why that wouldn't work well.

Fine for obd1...
Obd2 has a servo attached.
I am not saying 'no', this is an area that needs more study.

-Jeff


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ITBs available (Jefnes3)*

Jeff, you sure it's a servo and not a stepper?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ITBs available (need_a_VR6)*

Guys, we may have some *VERY* good news for you regarding this VR6 project shortly. Stay tuned ! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Matt-K (Jan 21, 2005)

werd? looking forward to the news


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Guys, we may have some *VERY* good news for you regarding this VR6 project shortly. Stay tuned ! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









tell me now or i kill the dogs... then you'll have the death of my two cute dogs on your soul!!!! muahahahaha...seriously i want to know. Possibly PM??


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ITBs available (fatfreevw)*

What's your address? I'll send Panzer over to take care of your "cute dogs"


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: ITBs available (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What's your address? I'll send Panzer over to take care of your "cute dogs"


















Now thats a cute dog... I <3 dobermanns

Now on with the updates!
and to think I just got out of vwvortex rehab.....


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Matt-K)*

>> tell me now or i kill the dogs...
OK well it looks like the dogs will be safe... I hope to be able to spill the beans late tomorrow. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The manifold above is not a Grant manifold.
Happy Friday.


----------



## Matt-K (Jan 21, 2005)

damn just when i get all excited to see that you posted.... i have to wait ANOTHER day. haha


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Matt-K)*

big dogs are scared crapless of little dogs that have a "dominate" attitude. Send him over!


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Matt-K)*

big dogs are scared crapless of little dogs that have a "dominate" attitude. Send him over!


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

and here we all are shaking in our chairs like crack fiends just waiting for our fix


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: (VWDave88)*

Come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (ArpyArpad)*

what a tease!


----------



## mcbenji (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

you're sweet


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

Guys this isn't a Soap Opera, please stop wasting space on this forum with pointless posts. 
We're going to share with you something that we normally never do. We're in the final stages of a deal with a customer who requires a full race 12v. However the deal was not finalized yesterday as we had hoped. We now expect to make an announcement by mid week.
Be patient. We'll update as we have news.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

This thread does not deliver. 
A forty page ***** tease.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_This thread does not deliver. 
A forty page ***** tease. 


well next time you decided to spend countless hours researching and thousands of dollars on equipment and R&D i'll make sure to call you a waste of time and a tease.
so please rather than bash why dont you sit quietly and be patient because somebody is working their a** off try to bring you a product that not only is correct and dependable but meets expectations put forth from the beginning of the project


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*300hp*

We thought the deal may have gone belly up on Saturday but today brings better news. Hold tight.
And as far as this is concerned...
>> A forty page ***** tease.
There is a reason we dont target the street car crowd...
If you've ever worked in the racing industry you know how much BS and how many dreamers and wannabe's there are. When we started this thread we thought we had a signed, sealed and delivered deal that would partially fund the project. After weeks of promises the customer disappeared entirely. Instead of killing the project (we have plenty of others) we decided that this 12v VR6 project was going to be a really interesting challenge. Anyone can make big power from turbos or NA 8v, 16v, 20v, and 24v VR6 engines if they know what they are doing... but the 12v has been a problem for many. We decided to tackle it anyway. Losing that customer meant the project was all too often shoved to the back burner. For that we apologize... we were slow at the time and that all changed shortly thereafter.
I agree that this thread is too long and would love the ability to edit it and remove the clutter. However in between the pointless or clueless posts are some very insightful tidbits by many of you. If some find this all useless that's OK... go elsewhere please.








Hopefully this deal will finalize tomorrow when a check arrives overnight.
If so, you will see the project take off as we originally intended.


----------



## RotorBG (Sep 21, 2002)

*Re: 300hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Any updates on the Baffled and Windage tray VR6 oil pan?
Thank you for the research.
Waiting Patiently.
RotorBG
(Ben)


----------



## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_do you link to a single post here?









Every Vortex post has a little page icon and a Post Title above the body-text area... if you just do a quick reply the title usually carries over from the last persons post... anyway the double arrows (*>>*) after the post title link to that specific post, ie: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...25579

Now, can a mod delete me please to remove clutter?








The people bitching about "lack of delivery" remind me of the the Sport Spindle development for mkIV cars from H2Sport. Good luck Bildon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by VR6ix at 7:33 PM 7-2-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_
Every Vortex post has a little page icon and a Post Title above the body-text area... if you just do a quick reply the title usually carries over from the last persons post... anyway the double arrows (*>>*) after the post title link to that specific post, ie: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...25579

Now, can a mod delete me please to remove clutter?








The people bitching about "lack of delivery" remind me of the the Sport Spindle development for mkIV cars from [email protected] Good luck Bildon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Sort spindle took FOREVER. but it finally delivered.
Here is an idea. Have you folks heard of adopt-a-highway where you volunteer to clean a 1-mile stretch of a highway? Why not do the same thing for long threads like this one. *Adopt-a-page*. So pick a page and sift through all the ~useless posts and summarize the good stuff all into one new post.
I'm sure some folks would argue on what content has merit - but no worries since the original posts will still be there...
I'll start with page 1 - who is with me?



_Modified by phatvw at 4:28 PM 7-2-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*The Real Deal*

OK just spoke with the customer. Everything is lookin good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
We're going to be able to accelerate this project by 10x now








Give us a about a week to get the customer's car in here and then we'll really get rollin. You're going to love this.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Sort spindle took FOREVER. but it finally delivered.
Here is an idea. Have you folks heard of adopt-a-highway where you volunteer to clean a 1-mile stretch of a highway? Why not do the same thing for long threads like this one. *Adopt-a-page*. So pick a page and sift through all the ~useless posts and summarize the good stuff all into one new post.
I'm sure some folks would argue on what content has merit - but no worries since the original posts will still be there...
I'll start with page 1 - who is with me?
_Modified by phatvw at 4:28 PM 7-2-2007_


It would at least give Bill something to put on his website that is all information instead of information + random conversation.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (dubsrphat)*

Dont worry about that. The information on this build will not come from here. It will come from flow bench and dyno data. I will post an outline here of the builds and post updates as we progress. 
BTW, we'll have stage 3 motor done by end of August. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (KIEZERJOSE)*

Alright I finally got on the dyno after putting the ported exhaust manifolds and downpipe on the car
Before HP was 183.6 and before torque was 179.2
After HP was 191.6 and torque was 188.7
I also moved the point at which the vgi opens from 4000 to 4300 which did not seem to change anything at all, the duration for the switchover was the same as was the amount of hp and trq dropped when the changeover happened
thats an 8.2hp and 9.5trq increase
I also ran in 25 degree warmer weather today compared to last time I dynoed
now i have to port the vgi and lower intake mani and get some underdrive pulleys
also im really not happy with the giac chip as afr's were all over the place from 15.5 at 3000 down to 12.8 at 5000 and back up to 13.6 at 6000


_Modified by LowNotSlow at 6:45 PM 7-3-2007_


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

Those are really solid numbers, was that after corrections or before?


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (dubsrphat)*

before corrections, so I guess that would be almost 230hp at the flywheel


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LowNotSlow* »_
not happy with the giac chip as afr's were all over the place from 15.5 at 3000 down to 12.8 at 5000 and back up to 13.6 at 6000
before corrections, so I guess that would be almost 230hp at the flywheel

That's so far off I'd doubt the chip is at fault. Do you have a WBOXS in the car now? If not, why not ?







I'd put a stock ECU in a test it again.
Also what are your engine's specs ?


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

the engine is a 2.8L obd 2 with 96k on it, stock bottom end
and whats a wboxs?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LowNotSlow* »_the engine is a 2.8L obd 2 with 96k on it, stock bottom end
and whats a wboxs?

WBOXS is how you got your mixture #s. It means Wide Band Oxygen Sensor.
So this is a 2.8 with no cams, 10:1CR, no valvework and no intake mods?
Or did you do the head and forget to post that part?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_So this is a 2.8 with no cams, 10:1CR, no valvework and no intake mods?
Or did you do the head and forget to post that part? 


_Quote, originally posted by *LowNotSlow* »_List of his mods from a post in the MK3 forums
I just made 191.8hp and 188.7trq
Mods are
Schrick VGI
Schrick 268's
TT 2.5"
Turn2 CAI
GIAC chip
Test pipe
Ported exhaust manis and downpipe


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

did they give you a dyno sheet/image/crayola rendering?!? ... uhm... don't sweat the crayola.... 
I'd be very interested to see what the area under the curve looks like... I mean that's pretty cool if it spikes (yah right) an extra 9 whatever ... but if there's a 6hp increase from 3,000 on... 
post up the sheet man!


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*

I should have posted the mods but vertigo covered that for me
heres the sheet, and sorry i don't have a scanner only a crappy cell phone pic of it


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

DynoDynamics? They are notorious for reading low/high compared to Dynojet's depending on what shop uses them and how they set them up.
Still I believe the number as long as it's SAE corrected, just a few hp higher then mine with bigger cams and ported manifolds. I buy it.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

dynapacks actually, I run my car at this local shop
http://www.bishopmotorsports.com/
I'm not sure what the percentage for error is but I've been told they're quite accurate


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

heres my (nonsmoothed) afr's...maybe someone can make sense of this but im not really sure what the deal is


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LowNotSlow)*

First you need to find out why you have such a wide variance in your AFR readings. Is it the dyno or is it your car? Get somebody to let you borrow a WBOXS for your car. 
Have the dyno shop show you other RECENT dyno runs to see if it isn't reading like this on other cars. (The 'jumpy' readings) 
That graph is probably generated from a text file that they can give you which has each AFR point mapped against RPM, Torque & HP ... ask them for that.
What concerns me more than the jumpy readings (that could be a non-issue) is that your engine goes from 15.5 to 12.8 under load in only a 2000 RPM spread! Thats not good.
If this is accurate data it looks like you can pick up a LOT of power in the lower RPMs before your VSR switchover. From 2000 to 3600 you are too lean. Target should be ~13:1 and high to low variance should be no more than 1 not 2.7 as yours is currently.
Of course having said this... it's now "curious" as to why the Hp/Torque curves dont follow the AFR bounce.










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:54 AM 7-5-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*ITBs*

Jenvey has some new super short bodies that will make the VR6 intake fit better. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif (won't need the injector boss however)










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:19 AM 7-5-2007_


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: ITBs (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Jenvey has some new super short bodies that will make the VR6 intake fit better. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif (won't need the injector boss however)









_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:19 AM 7-5-2007_

Use the injector boss as a vacuum source for your brakes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: ITBs (dubsrphat)*

that's a good looking unit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
power brakes are for sissys


----------



## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: ITBs (dubsrphat)*

I designed the mock-up/protoype years ago with the SFS Jenvey throttles for a very compact system.
You see,
I have been a dealer for Jenvey Dynamics for the last 6 years or so
But no one wanted to buck up.
It was to be a custom manifold,
that was way more compact than the stock base manifold,
and it used the stock injector locations, 
vacuum fittings were to be on the bottom of each port.
You still need to get that cyl head moving big air first.
LHP
Haywardperformance.com


----------



## VW KEVIN G (Oct 26, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Sort spindle took FOREVER. but it finally delivered.
Here is an idea. Have you folks heard of adopt-a-highway where you volunteer to clean a 1-mile stretch of a highway? Why not do the same thing for long threads like this one. *Adopt-a-page*. So pick a page and sift through all the ~useless posts and summarize the good stuff all into one new post.
I'm sure some folks would argue on what content has merit - but no worries since the original posts will still be there...
I'll start with page 1 - who is with me?
_Modified by phatvw at 4:28 PM 7-2-2007_

Good idea. I would liked to have seen this done with the all wheel drive, turboed R32 powered Corrado build up thread.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Windage*

Good animation of windage.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_From 2000 to 3600 you are too lean. Target should be ~13:1 and high to low variance should be no more than 1 not 2.7 as yours is currently.

The only VR6 dynos that aren't like that are the cars on standalone. Unless someone sweet talks Jeff into a 'real' chip for all motor cars.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Windage (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Good animation of windage.









with a vr6 full of oil....the oil level goes to the crank? hmm, didnt think it sat that high...


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: Windage (Weak VR)*

i think it was used just for an example...


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Windage (Weak VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weak VR* »_
with a vr6 full of oil....the oil level goes to the crank? hmm, didnt think it sat that high...


When the car is sitting still it probably isn't.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

>> Unless someone sweet talks Jeff into a 'real' chip for all motor cars.
No sweet talkin required. Just a check or cash. We worked with Jeff last year to do some work on our basically stock VR6 SCCA engine. 
Which reminds me... here is a little tidbit from a dyno pull. Intake Air Temps vs RPM.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Unless someone sweet talks Jeff into a 'real' chip for all motor cars.
No sweet talkin required. Just a check or cash. We worked with Jeff last year to do some work on our basically stock VR6 SCCA engine. 
Which reminds me... here is a little tidbit from a dyno pull. Intake Air Temps vs RPM. 









Alright i dont know much about fluid dynamics and such but how exactly does the intake air temperature dropat higher rpm. is it basically air speed increasing causing the decrease in temperature or does this particular car have a trick up its sleeve to do this.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

When it's hot in the summer, do you stand in front of a fan? Why?
This is from a pretty much stock engine. It has our CAI on it but that just alters the starting temp, not the trend.
Oh and this just proves that those insulating intake spacers are crap








We covered this way back in a the section where I bashed the intake spacers the first time.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:44 AM 7-10-2007_


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_When it's hot in the summer, do you stand in front of a fan? Why?


alright now i feel like a real dumbass but can you explain it a bit better lol...i stand infront of a fan to cool down...so what does this mean...car was moving or something...again i feel retarded...its probabley the lack of sleep lol


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

Bill, my IAT logs look nothing like that and I'm sure you know why.


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

the air has less time to get hot through conduction... I think. its moving so quickly the surrounding environment does not have the same amount of time to "heat soak" the air or is this convection...been to long since college. prob would not be the same with a sc or turbo motor would it?


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

Is there a shield you can place on top of the valve cover to keep the intake mani cooler? Would this be bad for the motor?
Also, do you think it's a good idea to add fins to a metal crack pipe? (just had a brain fart about this)


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Bill, my IAT logs look nothing like that and I'm sure you know why.

Does it start with a "T"







The dirty "T" word?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (BiSiE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BiSiE* »_Is there a shield you can place on top of the valve cover to keep the intake mani cooler? Would this be bad for the motor?
Also, do you think it's a good idea to add fins to a metal crack pipe? (just had a brain fart about this)

You can 'heat barrier coat' the valve cover and bottom of the manifold. Might make sense for a drag racer. But probably wont have any real impact on a street car or road race car that has been running hard for a while.
But remember that it's not the manifold temp that you need to worry about on an NA engine. It's the temp of the air at the MAF or MAP or ...
And that is all about finding an external cool air source. Forget about the manifold. The air is only in it for few milliseconds and it doesn't absorb any heat from the walls. 
Fins on the crack pipe... a thicker, *shrouded* radiator and an oil cooler will do far more, cheaper.


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

thnx, That makes sense.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Does it start with a "T"







The dirty "T" word? 

Certainly not a turbo on my car.. 
The spacers definitely work in drag cars, as you can cool the manifold a bit more between rounds to gain, at the very least, consistency.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, is that IAT log done on an Mk3 or MK4? The IAT is in the MAF on the Mk4, but on the MK3 it's on the upper runner portion for cylinder #6.
I've done logs like that with my S2000 and my MK3 VR6 years ago where the IAT sensor is mounted in the manifold. My explanation is that the manifold is heat soaked under low loads and going WOT allows the incoming air to "intercool" the manifold itself because it is extracting the heat. This is proven by the fact that the IAT readings will slowly creep back up after the throttle is closed due to the fact that heat can now transfer back into the intake manifold faster than it can be extracted by the minimal amount of intake airflow.
PS,
Sorry Bill, someone is one vacation (not me) so I swear I'll get back to work on those heads!!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Scott, that particular run was using our own IAT sensor on a data acquisition unit. I agree with the rest of what you observed with your VR.
I was wondering about those heads http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Where was your sensor located?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote »_Fins on the crack pipe... a thicker, shrouded radiator and an oil cooler will do far more, cheaper.

I actually thought about the crackpipe heat sinks until I saw how much room was around it. Without an SAI, it'd be perfect.
Is there a price on those Jenvey short bodies? 

_Quote »_Give us a about a week to get the customer's car in here and then we'll really get rollin. You're going to love this.


Any progress with this at all?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

We dont sell separate Jenvey components. 
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...av=66
re: the customer who wanted a complete 12v race motor... we're moving forward without him as it appears he has disappeared? He's losing a deposit too. Very odd. This guy had made multiple calls to both the previous car owner and us, yet seems to have disappeared and refusing to take calls. At least nobody got scammed. 
So while the 12v project budget wont get a much needed shot in the arm we'll move forward as fast as our business and our new shop construction will allow. 
I put together a bunch of data on our stage 1 motors this past weekend. Will be posting this info shortly as well as starting to post some new flow data...some of which is on our latest porting.
We have an engineer in Europe who is going to help design cams specific to our project engines. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif This is not just a cam grinder either, but an engineer familiar with VW...very familiar


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Call when you get a new cam into a motor.









-Jeff


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Call when you get a new cam into a motor.









-Jeff

hey man!
How busy are you these days ?
People call me from US about custom tuning and they tell me they have a hard time reaching you for good custom N/A tuning.
Ive sent em to you because of you MK4 us spec motronic knowlage http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
By the way ... i just hate winols


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Call when you get a new cam into a motor.








-Jeff

will do... hey are you interested in a VR6 turbo cam? The exhaust is milder and set with bigger lobe separation to decrease overlap, which dramatically improves midrange....as you know.
Dur. 266 / 257°, Lift. 11.55 / 10.25mm, Lift @ TDC. 2.15 / 0.45mm
Anyway..back to the NA stuff.... I'm going back to the flow bench right now in fact. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_By the way ... i just hate winols









Try Digiview from CSW Fahrzeugtechnik. 
They are from Wolfsburg. I have a friend there if you cant get answers directly.










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:04 PM 7-17-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Any news about the heads ?
1:were does it start to fall of in flow ? (lift mm)
2ifference in flow on 1mm valve upgrade
3:Optimal port area on oem valve ?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Here is some info to argue about...
















So for kicks I quickly flowed an XXX Tuning head (the blue line)







we had in here. It has 41mm Schricks? intakes in it. Then I flowed a stock unported head with a nice stainless valve and a racing valve seat job. So naturally the OE head flowed a bit better than what a bone stock head would. But the far more interesting thing is that the "ported" head flowed like crap. Not really surprising since when we first looked at it we thought that the critical throat and bowl areas (the parts that matter) appeared to be untouched.
A long intake port was tested only. With and without the lower manifold in place on the OE head.
I'm going to go back through these again and make sure the bench is calibrated properly and triple check the #s. The #s seem a bit high on the stock heads..could be the nice valve seat and the ST valve but I want to be sure.
Will start to post the back to back tests of various components here next.


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

i have a question, how would you simulate 6 cylinders pulling air at different times? are test benches sophisticated enough to do that? how much off would the measurements be in the case that you don't?
sorry if this is an obvious question...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (BiSiE)*

Bill, interesting results. Did the valve job on the Schrick equipped head look good, or just like (or worse then) a stocker. 
You can't really simulate all 6cyls pulling on a flow bench, at least not this one. I'm sure others could have the ability to do so. There are interactions that you won't see on the bench that happen in a motor, which is why it's important that you only use the bench as one of the tools in developing an engine and not the ONLY one.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Right, you need a dyno or spintron to see what a running engine will do. Keep in mind also that most flowbenches are moving air at 1/10th the pressure that is actually seen in a head. We're running tests at 28"WC [28" of H2O] test pressure currently. This is the standard pressure for engine flow bench comparison. This is one of the reason we modified our bench to support a large number of motors. We hope to be able to test at over 100" once we get a power service that can support the amperage. Need to rewire the new shop anyway...
I'll take a look the valve seat later.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (BiSiE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BiSiE* »_ how much off would the measurements be in the case that you don't?

While the flow bench can only test one port (independently) at a time. What is does test is very accurate. IOW, the #s from port to port WILL show differences between long and short or between good porting and bad, or good valve seats and bad, good valves vs. bad, etc.... we'll be showing all this.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Bill, interesting results. Did the valve job on the Schrick equipped head look good, or just like (or worse then) a stocker. 


Maybe the size of the valve because it was increased, decreased velocity. Compared to the stock with a race valve job.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (dubsrphat)*

I was even thinking stock seats with the big valves. It's happened before but not sure it can be done on a +2mm.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I was even thinking stock seats with the big valves. It's happened before but not sure it can be done on a +2mm.

I have seen +1mm on stock seats, but not +2mm
But I don't see the point of going +1mm and not doing any other work to justify it


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Right, you need a dyno or spintron to see what a running engine will do. Keep in mind also that most flowbenches are moving air at 1/10th the pressure that is actually seen in a head. We're running tests at 28"WC [28" of H2O] test pressure currently. This is the standard pressure for engine flow bench comparison. This is one of the reason we modified our bench to support a large number of motors. We hope to be able to test at over 100" once we get a power service that can support the amperage. Need to rewire the new shop anyway...
I'll take a look the valve seat later.

would rotating the cams with an electric motor be beneficial?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (BiSiE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BiSiE* »_
would rotating the cams with an electric motor be beneficial?

Ummmm...as in, taking the load off of the crankshaft to avoid the parasitic loss? 
Look at it this way, in a multi-cylinder engine, while you do have negative loading forces due to the spring pressure involved in opening a valve, you also positive loading forces from other cylinders assisting in the rotation of the camshafts. Without a timing involved, there'd be no way to keep the valve timing events perfectly in sync.
...besides, the electric motor needs it's energy from somewhere.


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (KingVR)*

thats a neat idea, i would go the solenoid route in that case...
however i meant rotating the camshaft with an electric motor on the test bench to simulate pulses in the intake manifold...


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I thought he meant while testing heads.... anyway yah... what VRKing said. You also have all sort of valvetrain harmonics and accelerations that only a smokey, loud, smelly otto cycle can create.








But back to VR6 heads...
How does Bildon know it's #s are accurate?
Calibration:
We have a calibrated flow orifice that was manufactured and tested to flow at a precise amount. (It's like the restrictor plate on yer roundy round cars)







Anyway on the manufacturer's calibration bench, this specific plate flows exactly 133.7 CFM at 28" of water. 
So... we set up our flow bench with this plate over the "test bore" and then set the test pressure to 28". If the CFM reading moves all over you have a leak or other problem. If the #s are steady you have a usable situation.
When we first setup our new bench we didn't have a good means to adjust the test pressure yet so that is one of the reasons we didn't post any data... no confidence in the actual #s and we didn't want to spew inaccurate data around even if the head to head changes were still meaningful & useful.
But now we can hold the pressure at a steady 28" WC and in testing this orifice we have found that our bench was less than 1 CFM off of the expected value. An adjustment of the calibration factor in the control software had us exactly at 133.7 CFM.
What this means is that if we are able to mount heads to the bench properly with no leakage, and if we are able to open the valves exactly and hold the test pressure at 28", the #s we see should be damn near exactly correct. Not just relevent to this bench, but correct overall. IOW, if VW says a stock head flows xxx CFM @ 4mm of lift @ XX test pressure then we will be able to exactly duplicate those #s on this bench.
This is why we rebuilt a new bench with more electronics in it instead of the old school water manometers. Precision is the goal.
Hopefully some of you are learning.. And I'm not just typing to hear the click click clicks








Pics of the Calibration Orifice:
























I can live with a .2 CFM variance. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Press/CFM
27.9 133.7 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.7 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.8 
27.9 133.6 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.7 
27.9 133.6 
27.9 133.5 
27.9 133.7


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (BiSiE)*

interesting idea.
the piston also plays an important part in making the pulses because it accelerates halfway then decelerates on the second half. So the pressure behind the valves isn't constant.


_Modified by BennyB at 4:37 PM 7-19-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

This is so cool!
That modified head looks just like the good old "max ported" crap most tuner sell!
im so happy to se this result because its already been proven on the track and now flow proven


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

good knowledge! 
i did mean rotating the cams with the electric motor on the bench...


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (BiSiE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BiSiE* »_good knowledge! 
i did mean rotating the cams with the electric motor on the bench...

....oh!!








Silly me!!


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (KingVR)*

There are two cylinders sucking air from the plenum 33% of the time correct?
4 stroke, 6 cylinders. 
Based on the firing order, what runners are sucking in what order?
If each runner had a volume of more than .46 liters, then this would cause no dynamic interference, but that's a pretty big runner. Although volumes can be surprising sometimes. 
Second topic:
If you were to express the displacement vs time of the piston on the intake stroke it would be a sine wave. Does anyone have a plot of cam lift versus piston position. 
Is the valve opening delayed a bit to provide some vacuum in the cylinder to increase scavenging?
Does the valve close when the velocity of the intake charge is still high? This provides excellent atomization in the cylinder. 
Now that you know the flow capabilities of the head under certain conditions, have you modeled the resultant vacuum created by the piston velocity vs valve lift. 
Flow bench testing, cam design, and bore x stroke all work hand in hand for getting air into the cylinder. Bore x Stroke are fixed so therefore the cylinders demand for air vs crank angle is a fixed function. 
Getting a good Air/Fuel atomization is the job of the cam designer. 
If the valve-train can handle the forces involved, I feel the ideal cylinder condition would be when the intake valve did not open until there was enough vacuum for a "good" flow velocity in the injector area. This way there is good fuel atomization the entire time the injector is open. 
I would also speculate it is probably good practice to close the valve while this velocity is still high. This way there will still be good atomization throughout the entire pulse width of the injector. 
The lift would determine both the velocity and the volume of air entering the cylinder. This camshaft ideally would have a crazy opening and closing ramp (vertical) and a sinusoidal increase in valve lift to maintain a constant runner velocity with a varying piston velocity. 
Have you thought about this yet?











_Modified by Vr6Fidelity at 8:16 PM 7-19-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

OK so we're all on the same page... here is some terminology since there are multiple names for some of these...








The bare minimum for a "racing" valve job. Note: this drawing in the 60* area isn't very good.








Some valve seat comparisons to follow...

_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 5:02 PM 7-19-2007_


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 5:03 PM 7-19-2007_


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Thanks for the diagram, very useful for us non head-porters playing at home.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Valve jobs*

Here are two photos of an OE VR6 valve job.
These are some general observations... based on experience. There are times when what was wrong on one head works on another so keep an open mind at all times.
This valve job looks pretty poor from a performance standpoint. While there are 'sort of' 3 angles... not really. The head (not seat) has been cut back at a 30° angle but a large gap and lip was left. There is basically a step or wall here for the air to climb over. 
Next is the seat which looks lo be too wide for max flow.
Finally the throat "cut" if you can call it a cut is ok until it meets the aluminum head again. Then it has a rough transition in places. Needs blending.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Valve jobs (Bildon Motorsport)*

Oh so thats what a 3-angle job is. Why 3? Why not 2? Or 4? I assume the angles are trying to approximate a continuous trumpet-shaped curve?
In general, are multiple discrete angles significantly easier to do than having a continuous curve? I reckon if you have a CNC milling, then a continuous curve would not impose any additional tooling. But with conventional machining/tooling I imagine a 3-angle job is a lot easier?


_Modified by phatvw at 5:58 PM 7-19-2007_


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Valve jobs (phatvw)*

It is very hard to seal on a continuous curve, angles seat up very well at all temps and speeds. 
And yes it is MUCH MUCH easier and cheaper to manufacture.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Valve jobs (Vr6Fidelity)*

And more importantly... Angles actually flow more than a curve.
Now go figure that one out








In addition, a simple 3 angle will often flow better than a 5 angle... which was all the rage for a while.
Clarification... different heads respond to different valve seats. Sometimes a simple valve job will outflow a more complex valve job. In theory a continuous curve should flow the best...but this is why race engines sometimes make engineers pull their hair out







... does not compute!


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:39 PM 7-19-2007_


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Valve jobs (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_And more importantly... Angles actually flow more than a curve.
Now go figure that one out








In addition, a simple 3 angle will often flow better than a 5 angle... which was all the rage for a while.

Angles do not flow better than curves. As a matter of fact the air will flow in a curve around the angle. 
The boundry layer still wants to be the same thickness, the only way to scrub off the boundry layer is to exceed the sonic velocity, which my be happening arond the angles due to turbulent flow. 
Hell turbulent flow may be a good thing in the valve area who knows?
http://www.desktopaero.com/app....html


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Valve jobs (Vr6Fidelity)*

You should read this techincal paper:
http://scitation.aip.org/getab...s=yes


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Valve jobs (Vr6Fidelity)*

Cant see it without paying. But it appears to be a paper describing the results of 36 valve profiles on a 2 angle seat? I've read more SAE papers that I care to remember. Laws & Theory gets you 80% of the way there.
Testing will teach you something new every time.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Valve jobs (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_
Angles do not flow better than curves. 


Actually they can. You have to take the whole system into account. Also remember the seats and valve have to fight reversion as well...a pure radius would be terrible in this respect. If the seat is a pure radius, the valve would have to have a matching convex radius to seal with the seat. The convex radius in the valve face wouldn't be conducive to efficient flow. Also since the seat and the valve don't expand equally with temperature, the two radii wouldn't match during thermal cycling. 
But lets keep this thread a bit less theoretical (however fascinating) and a bit more practical. I'm not cutting any pure radius seats even if it is intriguing.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Valve jobs (Bildon Motorsport)*

The paper comoares angles directly to radii. 
But what about the cam question i posted earlier.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_
But what about the cam question i posted earlier. 

Many of your questions can be answered by studying VR6 cam profiles.
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...=none#
>> Have you thought about this yet?
I think about lots of stuff







There is only so much time in the day for 12v VR6 forum surfing however. You've asked good questions...but we need to do one thing at a time. I'm still setting up the plot here


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

turkey and cheese with mayo samwich bich yagermiestfter. duh


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (inopias)*

Sour dough bread?








Well I figured out why the OE head tests from earlier had such high numbers.







Somebody forgot to reinstall the spark plug in that head!
So ignore the OE test from yesterday.
This should be more accurate. Note it's with a stock sized valve, not the 42mm.








I know so far this info has not been delivered in a nice scientific manner but bare with us. There is a method to the madness ...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Flows good without the plug, nice straight shot to the chamber. 
Bill, when you say 'with manifold' is that just the lower or both? If its just the lower have you tried it with a velocity stack stuck in it to see how it effects the flow?
I agree, you're not quite scientific with it, but you're making a good effort.







If you ever want to do an analysis of variance on your setup, let me know. I can setup the exp and do the data analysis. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Well I figured out why the OE head tests from earlier had such high numbers.







Somebody forgot to reinstall the spark plug in that head!

What a brilliant and inexpensive mod!!!! You're a genius








Everyone, pull out your sparkplugs for an easy 20 hp gain


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Bill, when you say 'with manifold' is that just the lower or both? If its just the lower have you tried it with a velocity stack stuck in it to see how it effects the flow?
If you ever want to do an analysis of variance on your setup, let me know. I can setup the exp and do the data analysis. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Lower mani only. And no we dont have a stack to use. Just clay. But it's not important since we're just doing it for initial #s and will probably only be putting up #s from testing various complete manifolds as we build the webpage with all the data.
Speaking of manis... I need a lower A4 intake. Somebody donate a plastic lower intake. PLEASE !
Not sure what you mean by "setup the exp" but I also have a degree in statistics so if giving you the std. deviation in the flow measurements was what you were after...it's possible...but hopefully unnecessary.
OK no more til Monday... have a good weekend,


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*









Just so some people realize how well the head does/doesn't flow in comparison...
144.6cfm at .40" lift is on par with a *stock* German OBD1 *ABA 2.0L* cylinder head!
This is great data, keep at it Bill. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ekwong (Jun 12, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I've got your lower mk4 plastic manifold. 
179 Hampshire Dr, Cranberry Twp, PA 16066 
is that the correct address?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I also have a degree in statistics so if giving you the std. deviation in the flow measurements was what you were after...it's possible...but hopefully unnecessary.

Then I almost EXPECT you to put a std dev with all the means of your data.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i figured u had a degree in stat. i was like who uses the word variance lol.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Just so some people realize how well the head does/doesn't flow in comparison...
144.6cfm at .40" lift is on par with a *stock* German OBD1 *ABA 2.0L* cylinder head!
This is great data, keep at it Bill. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yes, but that head has 4 ports, this one has 6.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

Just a quick little FYI before I doze off.. if 200cfm intake flow can be extracted from this head, I might not get my ass AS kicked by the Honda K series cars anymore.







Get back to work!


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

This thread is worthless without Std. Deviation. 
Can i get an x bar R chart of the long runners?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_yes, but that head has 4 ports, this one has 6.









really? based on the horse power it puts out N/A... you would have never guessed!

_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Just a quick little FYI before I doze off.. if 200cfm intake flow can be extracted from this head, I might not get my ass AS kicked by the Honda K series cars anymore.

Paul, I have this in my notes...

_Quote, originally posted by *WRD* »_...The one on the shelf now flowed 192 CFM at 500 lift.

Just a claim, someone go bother John for a cfm chart!
I have no idea how many " it was flowed, etc., etc., blah, blah.
Since you are going for the ET with a stock head and slicks, clean up that lump sitting on your workbench and get some cfm numbers. Rumor has it... it made power?!


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_








Just so some people realize how well the head does/doesn't flow in comparison...
144.6cfm at .40" lift is on par with a *stock* German OBD1 *ABA 2.0L* cylinder head!
This is great data, keep at it Bill. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

isn't it 152.6 at 40 lift?







(numbers are on the right)
edit: and i'm a dumba$$


_Modified by BiSiE at 9:02 PM 7-21-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Fidelity* »_
Can i get an x bar R chart of the long runners?

It's very sad that I know what you're talking about, though in this case an individual moving range chart would better fit the data.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BiSiE* »_
isn't it 152.6 at 40 lift?







(numbers are on the right)


No
A bit off topic here but:
How much more can you get these heads to flow?Wouldnt it have been better if you started with a 24V head?


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
No
A bit off topic here but:
How much more can you get these heads to flow?Wouldnt it have been better if you started with a 24V head?

Yes, it would have been easier to reach these power levels with a 24V head, but it doesn't bolt up to the older 12V blocks, and that wasn't the goal of the project.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
Yes, it would have been easier to reach these power levels with a 24V head, *but it doesn't bolt up to the older 12V blocks*, and that wasn't the goal of the project.

I know that laszlo I am just saying if the VR6 _supposidly_ has such a poor flowing head then why do people bother with it?


----------



## Matt-K (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I know that laszlo I am just saying if the VR6 _supposidly_ has such a poor flowing head then why do people bother with it?

cause its cooler.
really though its way cheaper right now (in terms of swaps)


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I know that laszlo I am just saying if the VR6 _supposidly_ has such a poor flowing head then why do people bother with it?

because not all of us like boost and would rather build an NA monster or attempt to at least. Sometimes its more fun to work with what you have than to just slap on a turbo and intercooler and crank up the boost. Whats the fun in that?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Matt-K)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Matt-K* »_
cause its cooler.

That was not the answer I was looking for (current VR6 cylinder head owner).
But Thanks


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*

Alot of racing classes won't allow for a swap. So you would need to stay with a 12v VR6 instead of a 24v.

And the price of parts for a 24v is up there... just compare the price on cams


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_Alot of racing classes won't allow for a swap. So you would need to stay with a 12v VR6 instead of a 24v.

And the price of parts for a 24v is up there... just compare the price on cams









I know! They act like it has twice as many lobes or something!!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_Alot of racing classes won't allow for a swap. 

Exactly. Mine gives me a 200lb weight break for running a 12v instead of 24v and I can't make that up in power easily.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v*

Sorry for the delay.. C drive took a dump on me when I booted up Monday








Will get more flow test data on here shortly.


----------



## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

bump this back up.
Has anyone ever considered "porting" the VR head for high-velocity intake ala MotoMan? Same guy with the high-rpm break-in method.
He's got a series of articles about finding deadspace in the ports and filling the deadspace with JB Weld. Seems to work very well on 4-valve bike engines, I wonder if the same thinking has been successfully tried on a 2-valve VR head?









He moved all his "magazine articles" off the main web page, you can either enter an e-mail addy or just jump to http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (VR6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ix* »_bump this back up.
Has anyone ever considered "porting" the VR head for high-velocity intake ala MotoMan? Same guy with the high-rpm break-in method.
He's got a series of articles about finding deadspace in the ports and filling the deadspace with JB Weld. Seems to work very well on 4-valve bike engines, I wonder if the same thinking has been successfully tried on a 2-valve VR head?









He moved all his "magazine articles" off the main web page, you can either enter an e-mail addy or just jump to http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm

I keep hearing about people doing this with JB weld and can only wonder how long before it comes loose in the port? It cannot be a good thing at all.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (dubsrphat)*

Motoman is not as revolutionary as he thinks he is.







His techniques are commonplace and well understood. He just writes good "copy" which sucks newbies into thinking he has discovered something new. 
JB weld is not the right way to add material to the head. There are compounds which will not come loose. There is also welding. This was discussed a few pages back.
What are we doing? Drywall and carpetting.








The new shop is being built right now and we have no time for anything else. We hope to be done with the major construction work in about 3 weeks. Might be able to sneak in some VR6 work on the weekends here but I cant promise anything.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

what compounds wont come loose with heat cycles other than welding?
And I thought this was the home construction forum


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Motoman is not as revolutionary as he thinks he is.







His techniques are commonplace and well understood. He just writes good "copy" which sucks newbies into thinking he has discovered something new. 
JB weld is not the right way to add material to the head. There are compounds which will not come loose. There is also welding. This was discussed a few pages back.


As one of those newbies who got sucked in, I can testify that filling in the bottom of the intake ports on my 16v head cost me about 3-4 mph consistently in trap speed. The head was mildly ported and de-shrouded, 3-angle valve job, backcut valves, fresh gasket/stem seals and Cat valve springs ..... I can't see any of these things COSTING me power so I am inclined to assume that this epoxy method simply is not the amazing free power boost Motoman claims it to be.
For the record the epoxy never fell out...


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

there shouldnt have been a reason to do this on a 16v, they flow very well and ported flow even better.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (dubsrphat)*

You're missing the point. The logic was that any port could be improved by filling in the low-velocity zone along the short side. So a 16v port is in theory just as good a candidate as any port for this treatment. The goal was not to get it to "flow" better, as in more CFM.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

has anybody try'ed reshapeing the conbustion chamber in the piston of course? 

I know some hardcore honda people do so in the head by adding material to increase compression that way instead of the block.


----------



## audioteknik (Jun 2, 2002)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

Here's the score... I began tonight to read this post for the first timae and I'm elated to see someone is trying to press the boundarys with some bonafide engineering tools. Blueprinting and modeling the engine and using the analysis software do the math to calculate the effective power gains and or losses as well as the structural strengths and weeknesses of those mods is so key to being able to go really far with this program. Been thinkin about this type of involved engineering for the VR and 16V for many years. Just got done lookin through some PVW's throwbacks from '98 out of the archives and seeing some of the first MKii VR swaps and rembering from then how I was daydreaming about this all








Anywho, the point I was going to get at is this: Most engineers are kind of introverted or at the very least spend most all of thier waking hours in the shop or at the computer and reading this made me remember something that I feel may be kee in your search for the big "250". There is a company who's products and reasoning you'll all asuredly find quite amazing. Their head design is so frighteningly simple as to conjure feelings of nausea and hot flashes and "Why didn't I think of this...
Coates Engine. 
I've been reluctantly kind of hoarding the knowledge of this company and what its products represent for people like you and I. Their cylinder head design has NO reciprocating parts. Rather they use spherical bearings on a shared shaft (if you will, being that there are no cams on the shaft!!) with a side entry intake and exhaust cutout machined into the spherical bearings. essentialy the air enters through a channel machined into the side of the bearing. The intake and exahust durations are direct factors of the lenght of the channel ( basicly the duration in degrees that the channel passes by the opening in the head). Kind of similar to a crude steam engine in principal. A little... I can see it in my head, anyway.








Anyway, the chanel kind of worms the air around and out of pockets at the ends of the channel in the tops of the bearing and from there continues around the head and passes through the head as the intake stroke begins . once the engine starts the compression stroke the pocket in the bearing sides no longer line up with the intake ports and hold seal until the next sequence of cylinder events.
HUGE! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The logic here is obvious. By eliminating not only a ton of parts ,most of which have been known to fail catastrophicly under huge loads and high RPM, but also a hell of alot of reciprocating mass within the head, they seem to have acheived the Golden Ticket prize for what it is that we're all looking for. A head that flows huge amounts of air that ads only the rotating mass of the bearings and the shaft. It'll run well over 10,000RPM with no issue whatsoever. No more broken valves and springs, sprung valve seats, crashed heads. Just a simple, no nonsense aproach to getting air into and out of your engine.















Please take a minute to check out their website as I have provided some links below. It's pretty informative , although the gallery proves that a picture paints a thousand words. You'll get it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Big ups guys and good luck on your quest. I hope this info leads you into some realms of thinking that you had perhaps not yet considered. It's beer thirty so I need to make a trip to the fridge. I'll check back in a few days and see whats new.. Happy hunting








http://www.coatesengine.com/
http://www.coatesengine.com/eG...m.htm
http://www.coatesengine.com/eG...s.htm
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Matt-K (Jan 21, 2005)

interesting.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (audioteknik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audioteknik* »_Coates Engine. 

Although neat, it's been around for awhile: 
U.S. Patent 4,944,261, issued July 31, 1990, 
"Spherical Rotary Valve Assembly for an Internal Combustion Engine" 
Also, many people in here looking for a VR6 power solution tend to be people with race cars with rules to follow. Most of them start with engine has to be same mfg as body, and/or cylinderheads must be production based.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What are we doing? Drywall and carpetting.









With about 3/4 of the 43 pages being flooded with peoples ridiculous ideas... you might as well be. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (audioteknik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audioteknik* »_
Coates Engine. 
I've been reluctantly kind of hoarding the knowledge of this company and what its products represent for people like you and I. Their cylinder head design has NO reciprocating parts. Rather they use spherical bearings on a shared shaft (if you will, being that there are no cams on the shaft!!) with a side entry intake and exhaust cutout machined into the spherical bearings. essentialy the air enters through a channel machined into the side of the bearing. The intake and exahust durations are direct factors of the lenght of the channel ( basicly the duration in degrees that the channel passes by the opening in the head). Kind of similar to a crude steam engine in principal. A little... I can see it in my head, anyway.








Anyway, the chanel kind of worms the air around and out of pockets at the ends of the channel in the tops of the bearing and from there continues around the head and passes through the head as the intake stroke begins . once the engine starts the compression stroke the pocket in the bearing sides no longer line up with the intake ports and hold seal until the next sequence of cylinder events.
HUGE! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The logic here is obvious. By eliminating not only a ton of parts ,most of which have been known to fail catastrophicly under huge loads and high RPM, but also a hell of alot of reciprocating mass within the head, they seem to have acheived the Golden Ticket prize for what it is that we're all looking for. A head that flows huge amounts of air that ads only the rotating mass of the bearings and the shaft. It'll run well over 10,000RPM with no issue whatsoever. No more broken valves and springs, sprung valve seats, crashed heads. Just a simple, no nonsense aproach to getting air into and out of your engine.


















Gosh, thanks for finally sharing!!! Meanwhile most people have accepted the fact that this company is pretty much vaporware, big claims but no independent confirmation of their 590 hp Ford 4-valve modular V8. Apparently severe friction has always been the stumbling block with this design. Also, from what I understand the head of this company has had plenty of legal trouble with the SEC etc.
Even if the technology did work it ain't gonna be cheap, and it is totally beside the purpose of this exercise, whichis to cure the inherent handicap of the VR6 design, not totally reinvent the internal combustion engine (or half of it anyways)










_Modified by Mr Black at 9:31 PM 8-5-2007_


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
...Even if the technology did work it ain't gonna be cheap, and it is totally beside the purpose of this exercise, whichis to cure the inherent handicap of the VR6 design, not totally reinvent the internal combustion engine (or half of it anyways)









_Modified by Mr Black at 9:31 PM 8-5-2007_

I wish the experienced guys here could leave an open mind to those of us who are simply trying to "add" to the discussion. No where did he say we should simply redesign the head and go with this guys solution.
I think many of those who post here "get" what Bildon and others are trying to accomplish here. We may or may not be as seasoned as some of you, but try to bare with those who post ideas that may or may not be directly related. It's all about brainstorming, isn't it? To squash an idea simply because it's not DIRECTLY related to what one is doing doesn't mean it doesn't have some tidbit that can be learned or even better, blow your mind and open it for a completely new approach. 
Clearly no one has found the correct answer with regards to flowing the VR6 - obviously that's what this thread is all about. So until someone does, I think there should always be some sort of tolerance bestowed on those who offer up something unique.
I think his final paragraph says it well...
"Big ups guys and good luck on your quest. I hope this info *leads you into some realms of thinking that you had perhaps not yet considered.* It's beer thirty so I need to make a trip to the fridge. I'll check back in a few days and see whats new.. Happy hunting "


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (audisnapr)*

i think we should just strap rockets to the VR6..... any classes that dont allow the use of rockets?


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## bigczaps (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

hi, i am interested in helping out. i am an engineering student with the use of a NASA endowed and staffed school at hand. i am tired of doing the same five problems over and over again and this one strikes me as very useful indeed seeing as how i have a vr6 tucked away in the garage. if no one has given up or lost interest i am in. i was rather amazed when i read through the posts that i understood most of it. thank god 5k dollars in school books finally paid off. soooo......., "what's next, what's the score?"


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (bigczaps)*

You have IM...
Also...
We're about 1/3 the way through our new shop construction... we should be able to get back on track with this project in a couple weeks.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Metal Studs? wow, preparing for a war?


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fatfreevw)*

Yeah seriously, are you going to be hanging spare motors on the wall or what?


----------



## Matt-K (Jan 21, 2005)

most commercial applications these days use metal studs.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Matt-K)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Matt-K* »_most commercial applications these days use metal studs.

Built my garage out of them.


----------



## bigczaps (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

so i have been thinking about this and have talked to a couple of other people that are interested mainly for the change in pace. i have a list of questions that i need info for:
1. what is the optimum rpm range that you are looking at. this is going to go up and down as set ups change i understand, but i need something to start at.
2. what is the magic volume that needs to be passed optimally and at what rpm range. what about exhaust?
3.what is the compression that we are looking at here, i keep seeing 14:1. is this final?
4. air temp ranges.
5. is fuel going to be preheated or taken at ambient temp?
6. we stuck on the oem basic design or is there leeway for change?
7. what about cams. what duration?
8. is there an existing dynamic pressure analysis already and can i get a copy if there is. also what about a scan of the intake manifold, has there been a digital copy yet so that i may get some raw data. i don't have one lying around that i can afford to cut to pieces to copy.
i have more questions but they won't really mean anything until i can look at some info. i assume that this idea is still rattling around in a few grapes and hasn't been lost. that would be tragic.



_Modified by bigczaps at 7:31 PM 8-16-2007_


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (bigczaps)*

I assuming that you've read the whole thread, because stepping in as if you're the uber engineer after 43 pages (read MONTHS) of research and money have already gone into this. 
So many of the questions that you've asked are specifically what is trying to be determined... all of the norms, all of the standard assumptions and assertions are being thrown away. Optimum rpm range? Static compression? These have yet to be flushed out. Had you read from poast #1 you would know that initially the idea is to keep manifolds, heads, block relatively stock until it becomes absolutely necessary to take things to the next stage (short of modifying the units in place)
There's been standard deviation discussed, volumetric flow vs velocity has been mentioned... Bildon has all sorts of equipment in on this... they got a full electronic working model of the VR6 programmed and some software analysis has already been posted.
This is one of those times when stepping up and offering your abilities and skills is much more helpful than another person to pick up the packet of parameters and running off to his secret shadetree lab (read: personal occupation, moonlite research, "my buddies dad") to formula some hypothesis... er answer to what needs to be done to achieve _*phenomenal cosmic horsepower*_... 
Why don't you ask what sort of things they could use help on and plug in to this collaborational, communal, technical forum here.
thanks


----------



## Bora Lab (Nov 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*

^^^^
Amen...


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## VolksWurks (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bora Lab)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VolksWurks)*

haven't read this thread in a hot minute, guess I'll bump it up.
Good to see that you haven't been discouraged in your quest for power.


----------



## bigczaps (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (ExtremeVR6)*

gladly, what can i do to help then? give me a task. as for being the uber engineer, i thought that i made it clear initially that i am still a student, so forgive my enthusiasm. i do have the guidance and knowledge of some very knowledgeable and experienced engineers that are incredibly helpful though. i guess i was really looking at the problem kind of backwards. i was assuming that in order to reach the 250+ mark there would have to be a few benchmarks that would be mandatory. but these all seem to be variable right now with no definite values. i didn't ask about static flow, i asked about dynamic flow, as the engine will only be static, (as far as the valve head is concerned), for a fraction of a second. so, what can i do? 
note: after re-reading the last few posts i am kind of taken back by the response i got. all i offered was help, i was nowhere near naively assuming that i or nor anyone could work out in a few days what the professionals have put together after months of collaberation. i didn't belittle any of the time consuming research that has been put here. i just asked a couple of questions. i would say that there are no stupid questions but we all know that there are.


_Modified by bigczaps at 7:08 PM 8-17-2007_


----------



## zander (Jun 26, 2006)

bigczaps, there are alot of "engineers" around that will shoot down anything you say, I would keep it in PMs with Bildon if you want to get stuff done


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (bigczaps)*

Always looking for fresh ideas and new insight. I wish the new shop could be finished by waving a magic wand. Showroom is almost done, engine assembly (clean) room is nearly there. After that we can get back to bizness.
bigczaps PM us if you want to help. We have some things you can probably help with.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Students are awesome because you can talk them into doing things that other people would never want to.


----------



## bigczaps (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

yeah, that might work for some stupid eighteen year old kid which i am not.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (bigczaps)*

Here are some quick, partial answers. The verifiably accurate info will be saved for the full project report.
1. what is the optimum rpm range
Stg. 1 - ~4000-6000
Stg. 2 - ~4500-7200
Stg. 3 - ~6000-8000+
2. what is the magic volume that needs to be passed optimally and at what rpm range. 
TBD soon.
3.what is the compression that we are looking at here
Stg. 1 - 10:1 - 10.5:1, pump
Stg. 2 - 10.5:1 - 11.5:1, pump+
Stg. 3 - 12:1 - 15:1, 100+ race fuel
4. air temp ranges.
IAT ~70-75*F
5. is fuel going to be preheated or taken at ambient temp?
Ambient
6. we stuck on the oem basic design or is there leeway for change?
Head: OEM + porting
Manifolds:
Stg. 1 - Alum. / Plastic OEM Intake, Ported OE exhaust
Stg. 2 - ABV OEM or Short runner log mani., Ported OE upper w/larger secondaries. 
Stg. 3 - ITB's or maybe log if testing proves useful., Header

7. what about cams. what duration?
These are STARTING points only based on our experience and/or calculations.
Final profiles will be determined for #2 & #3 as we progress.
Stg. 1 - Club Sport / track & fast street:
CAT 7607210, 266°@0.1mm. These cams perform really well in combination with ECU reprogramming. Factory springs, Ti retainers optional
Stg. 2 - Serious Club Racing, Drag Racing, Autocross
Bildon Grind (298°@0.30mm/12.50mm/[email protected]°) 
Race Springs, Light retainers. Solid Lifter option.
Stg. 3 - Ultimate 12v Racing Engine. Road Race, Drag Racing (not streetable) 
Bildon Grind (303°@0.35mm/13.50mm/[email protected]°)
Custom Valvetrain, Solid lifters, Alu retainers, custom seats.
8. is there an existing dynamic pressure analysis already and can i get a copy if there is. 
Ben may or may not have finished the Ricardo model... Ben any status?
> also what about a scan of the intake manifold
Refer to my IM.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:39 AM 8-26-2007_


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (bigczaps)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigczaps* »_yeah, that might work for some stupid eighteen year old kid which i am not. 

Hop off the high horse man. Students of all ages and stages of school don't have to worry about their time being lost $. Therefore they might be more willing to tackle a project that a business wouldn't.


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Zoso)*

http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...g.pdf
page #14; doesn't that look like some sort of windage/baffled oil pan that goes way beyond what the mkIV pan is? Bill can you order them things up? and if so would it be any cheaper? What is the ETA on your steel pans?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (jungle)*

Factory pan. (Euro)
The fabricator for the prototypes is still saying "soon"
We're too busy building the new shop to hassle them about it though.
So, I guess they will be available "soon"


----------



## L8 APEKS (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Keep it up Bill (and gang!). I'm not even a VR guy, but it's nice to see some renewed vigor in 12V tuning. I had many friends who were disappointed that they couldn't eclipse the ~200whp barrier without boost or nitrous on the 12V's, and I hope you guys raise the bar with the new info you find!
Heck, maybe this will be enough to tempt me away from the G60's.














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I noticed one thing...in searching for ideas for my friend's 12V VR, I noticed that nobody with a CCM BVH had any flowbench testing done. I was trying to calculate airflow on his engine, and knowing this figure would help a ton. Does anyone know if any of the common BVH builders actually flowbench the heads, or do they just grind and pray?!


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (L8 APEKS)*

I'm pretty certain that they flow bench. Things get a little hairy with 3 long ports and 3 short ones and not many people know how to get all 6 balanced and flowing well. 
I've seen a few people that do PnPs with no flow testing but I've never heard of it with BVHs, no matter what engine it was on.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
> I'm pretty certain that they flow bench. 
> I've seen a few people that do PnPs with no flow testing but I've never heard of it with BVHs, no matter what engine it was on.

In fact I know first hand that most do not. I'm not going to throw anybody under a bus, but I do have first hand experiences to back up my assertion. 
Flowing a head is far more critical when porting than when just installing a larger valve & seat. If you are doing a BVH, as long as your valve job is consistent (and it had better be!) putting the head on a bench wont do anything for you but measure the gain (hopefully). 
On the other hand, you are foolish to touch a grinder without a flow bench and the tools and instruments to tell you what each change has done and where.
PS - All our new engine room needs is a door and then we can move the flow bench and other tools in to start working on engines again.


----------



## L8 APEKS (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, this is a little OT, but would you guys be able to do a BVH 8V on the bench? I can't seem to find a place locally. Let me know! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
That having been said...I have searched and searched and NEVER found a CFM# on a ported or BVH in the VR forum.
What kind of numbers do the 12V heads make on the bench, before and/or after porting, big valves, etc?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (L8 APEKS)*

Yup... the 8v & 16v are old friends. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif But you'll have to give us a few more weeks to get our stuff moved and back up and running. Hell we dont even have phones right now.








>> What kind of numbers do the 12V heads make on the bench, before and/or after porting, big valves, etc?
Wait for our report on all this


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Wait for our report on all this









I'm running out of edge on this seat here.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

I don't even have a VR6 anymore and I am too.
Make me regret going to the merry-go-round motor, Bildon.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (L8 APEKS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L8 APEKS* »_...I have searched and searched and NEVER found a CFM# on a ported or BVH in the VR forum.

I've seen BVH claims of 192 CFM at .500" lift...
there's a key word in that last line.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

Is it "at?"

















Yes, talk is cheap, claims mean nothing without proof, in my opinion.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (djsheijkdfj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djsheijkdfj* »_Is it "at?"
Yes, talk is cheap, claims mean nothing without proof, in my opinion.

Exactly! That is why we have not published much of what we have developed up to now. Proof is not just a single dyno sheet. It's back to back comparisons on the same dyno, same day and a thorough explanation of the components and processes involved.


----------



## windsor96vr6 (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
In fact I know first hand that most do not. I'm not going to throw anybody under a bus, but I do have first hand experiences to back up my assertion. 
Flowing a head is far more critical when porting than when just installing a larger valve & seat. If you are doing a BVH, as long as your valve job is consistent (and it had better be!) putting the head on a bench wont do anything for you but measure the gain (hopefully). 
On the other hand, you are foolish to touch a grinder without a flow bench and the tools and instruments to tell you what each change has done and where.

Isn't the CCM BVH the one turn2 used to offer? If so I know that the guy who was doing them for Jason was some race engine builder from Charlottesville, VA. At the time, he had some super crazy flow bench he had made, can't remember what was so crazy about it. But I do remember that at the time, he had built the heads for 8 of the top 10 formula ford drivers. Apparently his success was due to his crazy flowbench. He spent a lot of time flowing the vr6 head, but who knows if he perfected it. This was 10+ years ago, and i'm sure technology has improved since then....


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Proof is not just a single dyno sheet. 

I want to see your anova table


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

What's the highest CFM flow # @ 28" you have ever seen for a 12v intake using any valve @ any lift?


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Valve lift, Flow cfm, Flow coef
.050 - 29.4 - .799
.100 - 56.9 - .773
.150 - 97.1 - .880
.200 - 118.7 - .807
,250 - 130.3 - .708
.300 - 142.2 - .644
.400 - 184.5 - .655
.450 - 191.6 - .680

I Have been reading this post from it's start and guys like me stay away because there are so many guys that will shoot down everything we say. here is a flow test I did on a 12v head i was working on.
If your going to do this kind of work you have to have all the tools 
and machines. We have done all this testing and had a post on here and got a lot of







from it . 


_Modified by HeadMaster at 6:12 PM 8-26-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

>> there are so many guys that will shoot down everything we say.
Yah but we dont care about them. There are an equally large number of folks who lurk here and know what's up. Engine builders, other shops etc. I've talked to quite a few people who have referenced his thread.
So... 192CFM is a good #. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Spill the beans on the specs








Flowed @28" ? valve dia? valve type? 
I assume at only .450" of lift you were building the head for a hydro cam street motor? I wonder what that head would flow with a full race .500" lift cam in it? Was it falling off much over .450" ?
How was the long vs short runner "balance" ?
If you want to chat or dont want to publish info here just IM me or shoot me an email. 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:23 PM 8-26-2007_


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

intake 1.531 exhaust 1.347 short runner 1" plate
From looking at your post I can See that your flow bench is new and the head adapter your are using is to big. Make the same thing using wood oak and pvc pipe reducers for cyd. Then you can bore them to the size needed. Line up old head gasket for dilling head bolt holes in the top plate using threded rod for head bolt to hold head on. And long spacers and nuts. 
Yes it was for a steet motor in Molly Jetta pushing the cam any bigger just wasts parts.If you want more try bull noseing the cam with more rake on it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

I was going to guess larger valves. Very good #s for stock valves. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif That's all at 28" of H2o right?

_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_
From looking at your post I can See that your flow bench is new 

Yup, old one was damaged by water. So we built a new one using some of the old parts and some nice new digital stuff. It's new but we aren't. Been flowing heads off an on for ~17 years. Started with IMSA GTU Nissan heads.
We have a few head adapters. Flip them over to get a different bores.
The one in the photo is 83mm which is correct for the bore we are using for the stg 2 & 3 VR6 project motors. Although as you probably know the test piece bore does not have much affect (if any) on your flow numbers. 
The head adapters are all drilled to accept head bolts with nuts however we usually seal with a Cometic gasket, a film of RTV and our quick change clamping system.
We'll see about that big cam.







One of the cam designers I'm working with has already suggested popping open the valves quicker using a profile you could definitely describe as a "bull nose". But no sense in putting the cart before the horse (power)







... first things first.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_So... 192CFM is a good #. 

A very good number only 8 off what I need to catch the K's








Stock valves or stock size aftermarket valves? I'd still like to know the long/short breakdown as well.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

It was a stock valve and size at 28" thats the std. in flow work. I know that there are guy's out ther that like to bump the inchs up to make there stuff look good I see it all he time but it will catch with tham. I got my first flow bench 1974 SF100 for $1200 now we spend a hell of a lot more. 
Here are some pic's 



























































_Modified by HeadMaster at 2:05 PM 8-27-2007_

_Modified by HeadMaster at 2:08 PM 8-27-2007_


_Modified by HeadMaster at 2:09 PM 8-27-2007_


----------



## mk2vrooom (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

not to do a sidepost or anything...but the turn2/cch bvh i had really wasnt anything to write home about...the porting was okay...not that great...regardless, bump for you guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

I like the way you attached the dial gauge to the exh. manifold








PT software is great. Have you used any of Cavanaugh's or Meaux's stuff?


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Yah that was covenient of them to put that there for me.
If you look at right side of the port you can see that wall is stright all the way to the seat. Air love to go in a stright line so any wall you can make it.








Your not making it bigger just strighter both sides


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I like the way you attached the dial gauge to the exh. manifold









x2 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
It's probably one of the most ingenious things I've seen posted in the forums lately.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

>> your not making it bigger just straighter both sides
Yup, velocity is king. Looks like the early stages of your porting. Thanks for sharing the pics. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## L8 APEKS (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (TallaiMan)*

BILL and HEADMASTER...
Thank you so much! You have potentially turned over a new leaf for a lot of us lurking here! Nice to see some hard facts.
I have often been disappointed by dyno numbers put up by 12V's with big valve heads, but I'm still trying to piece together why the numbers were so low. My interest in a 12V BVH includes forced ind, and I'm sure that will be a completely different case.
I may be messaging you in the near future, I have an 8V head that needs to hit 185 CFM...


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (L8 APEKS)*

From what I have seen in doing a lot of test is as the valve gets bigger the closer it gets to cyd. wall and slows the air down were fuel droplets form. in wet test you see this. also porting is a art form not just grinding holes as most think it takes years of using a grinder ask your dentist.
Look closely at this and you can see the work that was done


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

Just a little bit of welding in that one!


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (need_a_VR6)*

Quench!


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (L8 APEKS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L8 APEKS* »_I have an 8V head that needs to hit 185 CFM...









There is a shop out east here that gets that out of 8v's and a little more.... well, x-flow 8v's.
D&F in New Jersey, Allen is/was a good contact for that shop, his new screen name is 1badimport.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_We have done all this testing and had a post on here and got a lot of







from it .

Where is a link to that post?
Older/different screen name I would imagine?
I only ever remember seeing actual CFM numbers posted up by an advertising shop on here...


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

No more Honda pics!







Let's keep the thread VR6 specific please. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Not pushing Honda trying to show its not all big valves. There is a lot of work in doing this and you can see in that pic how much work had been done just in one chamber to advance the flow # of that job.
I have pic's of all kinds of Projects that we have work out and you learn from them all. I don't work in just vanilla. like I've said before I doing this evrey day for 35 years now and the VR6 has just been here a short time. That is not Me in the pic"s he is a one of the guy's that helped me at that time. I Have worked this hole thing out already on the flowbenches and modeled the motor on EnginePro. machined the parts end yes I have a SF902 Dyno.

This is just some of the mag. that have sought me out for my innovative way of thinking.








I am giving you guys my work and pic's to look at I have not seen any pic's of any work here just l lot of digrams from other peples papers. This stuff was all done here. Some time i use other makes to show how it looks. I can stop if you would like end just go back to Lurking


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*

As mentioned you are more than welcome to contribute. (Who are you BTW?) Let's just try to keep it all VR6 focused. It's way too easy to go off on tangents in this forum. I have even been guilty.
We will post all of our data on this project. And many photos. But wont be posting randomly. It's all going to go into a web page chronologically. This forum is just for batting around ideas related to our projects. This forum is not "the" project. Most of the info and pics we've posted in this thread are from us, not others. 
We are developing a number of custom components some of which are already completed. I could post pics of this stuff now but wont. It just generates to much email and calls. Once they are all tested and proven then we will publish it and make it available. Sorry but thats just the way it has to be... the VR6 project is not our primary responsibility.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_(Who are you BTW?) 

I have this bookmarked from a while ago searching honda heads...
http://spc-racing.com/


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (billyVR6)*

Yes that is me and my shop that work in 
But I must be a BTW whatever that is!


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_ Yes that is me and my shop that work in 
But I must be a BTW whatever that is!

BTW = by the way
internet lingo


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (HeadMaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_ Yes that is me and my shop that work in 
But I must be a BTW whatever that is!

BTW= by the way


----------



## VIRUS__ (Aug 31, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

My apologies for high jacking this thread its a last resort
Bildon I've been trying to reach you all week about an order and no replies. By Email Phone IM ? Order Number: 8656
Getting worried here.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (VIRUS__)*

You have an IM sir. Phones are off while we move.
We have no email from you... perhaps our spam filters are fighting each other. Try emailing to VWM_Sales <at> Bildon That one has not filter.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:22 PM 8-30-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Walls are up in the new engine room. Should be moving parts, engines, flow bench etc. in next week. Will continue head work then. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
*Anyone have a lower plastic manifold they can send us?* 
I've had a few people supposedly sending them to me and none ever showed up. I'm too busy to hit the bone yards for one. I can return it if it something you would need back.
Manifold design...still not happy with the angles where TB and manifold meets...or the linkages. Trying to juggle low cost vs complexity though.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

How does that work ?
Mounting a Straight stack+Tb och the semi bent OEM VR6 mani lower part ??
Hard to get nice angle for that big stack also ??


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp ([email protected])*

It doesn't work.. that's why I said I was unhappy with this one.
Also we're looking at doing an asymmetric type cam set (like yours) to eliminate the two length stacks. But I've got no asymmetric cams to test yet. I have CAT looking at what you did with DR.
BTW, in case anyone is thinking this one wont clear the radiator, you are correct. Need to drop it 6".


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 12:23 PM 9-2-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Oh i didnt read.
I have a 5 banger lower many if you want .
Just to flow beanch or what ever ya gonna do


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp ([email protected])*

Ok
Confirm that this is what you want and ill ship it out from Sweden tomorrow.










_Modified by [email protected] at 1:05 PM 9-2-2007_


----------



## VR6ix (Oct 27, 2003)

Would BMW I-6 throttle bodies be anywhere helpful to create a VR6 ITB system?








"why re-invent the wheel when it's an off-the-shelf part" kinda thing, has anyone compared the motors to see if the BMW parts would help at all? just thinking out loud.

foffa that is the mkiv plastic lower intake part you have pictured http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VR6ix)*

Nope the Center to Center distance is way off. 
But we have developed an intake air box and filter system similar to the BMW unit. 100mm intake from cold air source to filter box wrapped around the ITB trumpets. This is all off he shelf race stuff but we made a custom backplate to fit the VR6 throttles.


----------



## Tody (Aug 7, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I've got a lower plastic mani that I can send to you if still needed. Keep working on the design cause I could always use some exta power


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Tody)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tody* »_I've got a lower plastic mani that I can send to you if still needed. Keep working on the design cause I could always use some exta power









Shiped one out yesterday








But ill guess more is better
send it to him http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Just found this on page 14
WTF!!!!!!!!!
The US spec MK4 got MUCH longer runner then EURO spec MK4
Here is US version









Compare to EURO version lower part.








The EURO is 2inch maximum
The US spec is atleast 4 inches








Might explain why VR5 love high rev.

Any other US spec pics to confirm US spec MK4 intake vs my euro pics?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Foffa, what about euro MkIV 12v VR6 vs USA 12v VR6? ETKA didn't show any differences there.
I think its just VR5 vs VR6. We already know the VR5 has quite an elaborate tubular exhaust system compared to the VR6, so maybe VW was smart and tuned the intake accordingly. Maybe we're all wasting our time on the VR6 and should be working on the VR5 20v engine








Wonder why VW never brought the VR5 to the USA? IIRC, the New Beettle at some of the car shows back in 1996/1997 had the VR5...


_Modified by phatvw at 11:36 AM 9-5-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

We do not have vario platic on our late VR6 12v.
they ditched it for VR5 10v and VR5 20v and the 24v Vr6.

So this intake its oure US spec low sales model
But its so loooong








and i sent a short to bildon and all ya guys "confirmed" my pic 4 posts above








Thanks for spending 40$ in shiping









My car loves 8200rpm








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwsN-_Nw5pI



_Modified by [email protected] at 11:40 AM 9-5-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

>> My car loves 8200rpm
No, your car loves boost.








Hey if you want the shorty manifold back we can always ship it back to you... with a set of ITBs?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> My car loves 8200rpm
No, your car loves boost.








Hey if you want the shorty manifold back we can always ship it back to you... with a set of ITBs?










But still my VR5 cars (3 of them right now) all peak lot further up in rpm band VS US spec and it due to that damn intake.
Strange that no one saw that its MUCH longer the Euro version.








My car has alot smaller turbo then most C2 and kinetic kits and still peak it 2000rpm higher and makes much more power.
Not even light MK3 cars with claimed 400whp is even close to my trap with my uber heavy car










_Modified by [email protected] at 8:44 AM 9-6-2007_


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

Nice work. Is this one of the intakes you fab for testing. How did it flow with the head. Much loss ? Did you do all your CNC work in house


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Foffa, This Euro lower mani is very interesting. Shorter, smaller ID, larger radius, runners. Too bad it won't mate up to a US plastic upper.
Can you take a photo of the side of the Euro plastic upper manifold so I can see the bend in the runners? 
















Looking forward to when I will be able to compare all 3. 
Euro, US & mk3.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Foffa, This Euro lower mani is very interesting. Shorter, smaller ID, larger radius, runners. Too bad it won't mate up to a US plastic upper.
Can you take a photo of the side of the Euro plastic upper manifold so I can see the bend in the runners? 
















Looking forward to when I will be able to compare all 3. 
Euro, US & mk3.


Hi

Ive posted EURO MK4 vs MK3 in this thread somewere.
Looking at VR6 MK4 US spec design the plenum on MK4 EURO spec is mounted lower and with angle and not taking as much space as the US spec MK4
Back in the days a guy here on vortex had a bunch of pics of the US spec mani when he did his DIY for MK4 cam instaltion.
But i cant find it








But my comparisionpics are back on page 14 or something like that







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 6cylVWguy (Jun 14, 2000)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_ If you guys invested half the time you already have into BMW or Porsche you guys would have 500+ hp cars already. 

500hp VR6's aren't unheard of.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

Just ignore him. He is wrong on every point he made.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Just ignore him. He is wrong on every point he made. 


Yea I just had to laugh at his 'get a Porsche' comment because Porsche used the VR6 in the base Cayenne..idiot.


----------



## LiquidCrystalDisplay (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

I agree with what Captain16vgti said.
and its true.. 
from back in the day if you layed out the 12 to even an older designed car an E30 turbo both ...the E30 will win day in day out.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LiquidCrystalDisplay)*

His initial statement is factually incorrect. Let's just drop it since there is no way to have a constructive argument on a forum when people change the wording & comparisons with every post. Anyway, this isn't about 12v VR turbo engines or E30 chassis with any engine.
Almost ready to paint the engine room and then we'll start moving crap back in. Flow bench is #1 priority.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Where is your shop? what are you using for a flow bench have not seen any pic's of working on it here at all.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (HeadMaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_ Where is your shop? 
what are you using for a flow bench 
have not seen any pic's of working on it here at all.

Pittsburgh.








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Used to use an SF-1200 but it got flooded so instead of buying another orifice type we salvaged some of the SF parts & went with a fully electronic bench which we designed ourselves. We use averaging pitot tubes and a data acquisition unit similar to those you see from PT.
Sooo much nicer than dealing with water manometers.
For velocity the manometers are still nice and we plan to install one at some point.
Look back a few pages...there are some pics of the bench and a video of one of our first tests of the new equipment.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I use flowdata on the bench for data acquisition PT is for plotting the data we also use a swirl meter and pitot tubes they also go to flowdata the last time i had to replace the motors there were 10 of them end they are throttle as you increase the lift all automatic so you do have to here that thing scream. My other is a SF110 and it is all Manual just used for carb and tb air cleanner testing for simple things.

Was in area a week ago went Indy could not find shop.


----------



## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (HeadMaster)*

I built a wetflow bench with black light sensitive dye 10 years ago,
WHO CARES, get back to the VR6 head tech.
This is all about getting the vr6 head to flow some air,
lets get back to the real subject here.
Thank you.
LHP


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: (LHP)*

Where is your test results or your port work pic's of what you have done. All i see here from a lot of you are a lot theories and wishing. when i put up some pic's that show real work you all don't like it and question its relevance to this. I have seen Peoples dogs to my cars better then your.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (HeadMaster)*

>> I have seen Peoples dogs to my cars better then your. 
What the heyl does that mean?








>> Where is your test results or your port work pic's of what you have done.
In due time. We don't post detailed data from customers so the "project" is all you will see. We'll dump it all on the web when done. Until then you just get bits and pieces on here. Speaking of customers... we have nobody running VR6 race engines anymore (well nothing more than a stg 1 anyway) so there is nobody to pay for development.. We're funding 100% of it... and only because I'm curious about what's limiting the power. So, real work $$$ pushes this project aside every time. But we're making progress...slowly.
HeadMaster since you appear not to have read the whole thread, I'll give a little background for you. We were working with a World Challenge customer a few years back while at the same time we were developing a VR6 for our own SCCA race car. We found it very easy to coax 200+ hp from the VR6 even with the limiting rules we had to run under... our WC customer on the other hand was not seeing the big #s he needed to be competitive. We started looking into the 12v engine and discovered that there was very little info out there, *and that which was out there was largely unsubstantiated.* After talking to a few VW engine builders who we respect, we found out that people were having trouble breaking through the 250WHP / 275CHP barrier. This was odd because * on paper* a big 3.2L full out VR6 should make close to 400hp... 
--warning non-VR content! --








BTW, one of our customers just dyno'ed our 20v NA motor at 250hp and is entering the Divinol Cup at the Sachsenring this weekend! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Another just installed a 20v NA into their Factory Supported Rally car in South America... 100% Bildon parts on that one too. Finished doing a diff today for the only World Challenge VW currently competing... oh yah...but we dont discuss customer details.... then why am I mentioning this? Because it seems that some think all we do is work on this VR6 project when that's far far far from the reality. 
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/Customers/index.cfm



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:42 PM 9-12-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (HeadMaster)*

chew on this... 
Note: some of the data has been removed, 'xxx' for your protection








3L @ 6500 RPM with 123.8 % Volumetric Efficiency 
*Required Intake Flow between 188.9 CFM* and 199.0 CFM at 28 Inches
Required Exhaust Flow between 150.7 CFM and 162.1 CFM at 28 Inches
600 RPM/Sec Dyno Test	Lowest Low Average Best
Peak HorsePower 311.3 324.1 *330.5* 336.9
Peak Torque Lbs-Ft 278.1 289.5 295.3 301.0
Target EGT= 1198 degrees F at end of 4 second 600 RPM/Sec Dyno accel. test
Octane (R+M)/2 Method = 108.4 to 106.8 Octane required range
Air Standard Efficiency = 63.53699% for 12.0:1 Compression Ratio
Peak HorsePower calculated from Cylinder Head Flow CFM only
600 RPM/Sec Dyno Test	Lowest Average Best Potential
Head Flow Peak HP = 325.2 343.9 362.6
(per Valve CM^2 area )
Engine Size Liters = 2.976 Intake Valve Net Area = 13.465
CC per Cylinder = 495.945 Intake Valve Dia. Area = 13.862
Rod/Stroke Ratio = 1.815 Intake Valve Stem Area = 0.397
Bore/Stroke Ratio = 0.924 Exhaust Valve Net Area = 9.820
Int Valve/Bore Ratio = 0.503 Exhaust Valve Dia. Area = 10.217
Exh Valve/Bore Ratio = 0.432 Exhaust Valve Stem Area = 0.397
Exh/Int Valve Ratio = 0.859 Exh/Int Valve Area Ratio = 4.755
Intake Valve L/D Ratio= .320 Exhaust Valve L/D Ratio= .373
CFM/Sq.Inch = 87.9 to 92.6 CFM/Sq.Inch =95.1 to 102.4
Curtain Area -to- Valve Area Convergence Intake Valve Lift MM= 10.503
Curtain Area -to- Valve Area Convergence Exhaust Valve Lift MM= 9.017
Intake Valve Margin CC's Exhaust Valve Margin CC's
1.00 CC = 0.0284 1.00 CC = 0.0385
0.50 CC = 0.0142 0.50 CC = 0.0193
0.25 CC = 0.0071 0.25 CC = 0.0096
0.10 CC = 0.0028 0.10 CC = 0.0039
------- Bildon/Wossner 12v Piston Data -------
Mean Piston Speed (M/S)= 19.59 in Meters per Second
Maximum Piston Speed (M/S)= 31.93 occurs at 75.577 Degrees ATDC
Piston Depth at 75.577 degree ATDC= 39.9010 MM Cylinder Volume= 218.8 CC
Maximum TDC Rod Tension GForce= 2724.63 G's
Maximum BDC Rod Compression GForce= 1547.48 G's

------- Bildon Stage 3 12v Cam Specs @ .050" (1.27mm) -------
IntOpen= 29.00	IntClose= 59.00 ExhOpen= 59.00	ExhClose= 29.00
Intake Duration @ 1.27 = 268.00	Exhaust Duration @ 1.27 = 268.00
Intake CenterLine = 105.00 Exhaust CenterLine = 105.00
Compression Duration= 121.00 Power Duration = 121.00
*OverLap Duration = 58.00* Lobe Center Angle (LCA)= 105.00
---- Recommended Camshaft Valve Lift- MM
Minimum Normal Maximum
Intake = 12.11 *13.04* 14.34 MM
Exhaust = 10.72 11.55 12.70 MM
Max-effort Intake Lift = 15.02 MM
Max-effort Exhaust Lift = 13.31 MM
---- Cylinder Head Port & Manifold Runner Tuned Lengths
1st Harmonic= XXX
2nd Harmonic= XXX
3rd Harmonic= XXX
4th Harmonic= XXX (less Torque)
5th Harmonic= XXX (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned)
6th Harmonic= XXX (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned)
2nd and 3rd Harmonics typically create the most Peak Torque
4th Harmonic is used to package intake under the hood
Plenum Runner Average Recommended Entry Area = 14.943 Sq.CM
Minimum Plenum Volume Liter= XXX 
Maximum Plenum Volume Liter= XXX 
------- Operating RPM Ranges of various Components ------- 
*Minimum Int. Lift to prevent Choke* = 13.036 MM Lift @ 6500 RPM
Minimum Exh. Lift to prevent Choke = 11.547 MM Lift @ 6500 RPM
*Current (Int. Valve Curtain Area -vs- Time) Choke RPM* = 6712 RPM
Current (Exh. Valve Curtain Area -vs- Time) Choke RPM = 7578 RPM
Intake Valve Area & Curtain Area operating range = 4863 to 6863 RPM
Intake Valve Diameter RPM Range = 4712 to 6712
Intake Flow CFM @28in RPM Range = 4779 to 6779
Note=> HorsePower and Torque data are corrected to SAE J1349-STD
29.92 in.Hg. Barometer, 60.0 deg.F, 0.0 % Humidity, 0.0 Ft Sea-Level
and correlate to a Dyno test acceleration rate of 600 RPM per Second
--- Cross-Sectional Areas at various Intake Port Velocities (@28 in.) ---
165 FPS at Intake Valve Curtain Area= 2.754 sq.in. at .530 Lift
211 FPS at Intake Valve OD Area and at Convergence Lift = .414
260 FPS 90% Rule Seat-Throat Velocity CSA= xxx sq.in. at 6500 RPM
330 FPS Velocity CSA= 1.373 sq.in. at 6500 RPM Port Sonic-Choke with HP Loss
250 FPS Velocity CSA= xxx sq.in. at 6500 RPM Recommended Port CSA
240 FPS Velocity CSA= xxx sq.in. at 6500 RPM Largest Intake Port Entry CSA
220 FPS Velocity CSA= xxx sq.in. at 6500 RPM Largest Intake Port Entry CSA
210 FPS Velocity CSA= xxx sq.in. at 6500 RPM Torque Loss + Reversion

Valve	Intake	Exhaust	Curtain Area	300 FPS Velocity Minimum Head
Lift	Choke	Choke	Square Inches	Cross-Sect Area Flow @ 28 In
inches	RPM	RPM	Intake	Exhaust	Intake	Exhaust Int Exh
.050	633	715	0.260	0.223	0.147	0.122 18.4	15.2
.075	950	1072	0.390	0.335	0.221	0.183 27.6	22.9
.100	1267	1430	0.520	0.446	0.294	0.244 36.8	30.5
.125	1583	1787	0.650	0.558	0.368	0.305 46.0	38.1
.150	1900	2145	0.779	0.669	0.442	0.366 55.2	45.7
.175	2216	2502	0.909	0.781	0.515	0.427 64.4	53.3
.200	2533	2860	1.039	0.892	0.589	0.488 73.6	61.0
.225	2850	3217	1.169	1.004	0.662	0.549 82.8	68.6
.250	3166	3575	1.299	1.115	0.736	0.610 92.0	76.2
.275	3483	3932	1.429	1.227	0.810	0.670 101.2	83.8
.300	3800	4289	1.559	1.338	0.883	0.731 110.4	91.4
.325	4116	4647	1.689	1.450	0.957	0.792 119.6	99.0
.350	4433	5004	1.819	1.561	1.030	0.853 128.8	106.7
.375	4749	5362	1.949	1.673	1.104	0.914 138.0	114.3
.400	5066	5719	2.078	1.784	1.178	0.975 147.2	121.9
.425	5383	6077	2.208	1.896	1.251	1.036 156.4	129.5
.450	5699	6434	2.338	2.007	1.325	1.097 165.6	137.1
.475	6016	6792	2.468	2.119	1.398	1.158 174.8	144.8
.500	6333	7149	2.598	2.231	1.472	1.219 184.0	152.4
*.525	6649	7507	2.728	2.342	1.546	1.280 193.2	160.0
.550	6966	7864	2.858	2.454	1.619	1.341 202.4	167.6
.575	7282	8221	2.988	2.565	1.693	1.402 211.6	175.2
.600	7599	8579	3.118	2.677	1.766	1.463 220.8	182.9
.625	7916	8936	3.248	2.788	1.840	1.524 230.0	190.5
.650	8232	9294	3.378	2.900	1.914	1.585 239.2	198.1
This is just one of a number of configurations we are testing.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:05 PM 9-12-2007_


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

There are peoples pic's of dogs back a few pages and as for my car better then your. There is lot of talk of who's makes more power and why. 
I have read this from the beginning my daughter showed this to me. We were working on her VR6 at the time and she said that I should see if i could help after she saw the work we were doing and the numbers we were getting. I always take pic's of the work we do so I can go back when get side tracked on other jobs. Her Boy Friend had put some pic"s of the work we were doing. So I have read most of it other then the My car Better then yours stuff that some guys will get into. Facts that is were I work All the time. I drive a Honda yes but if you know me it is not the end all thing with me most of the time I go to the races with most of the time with the VW guys like Rennin he beats me and i beat him we joke and then work on stuff together. 
You Started this post over a year and have a lot of guys wanting to see some Facts and numbers. Lay it out! 
>>Where is your test results or your port work pic's of what you have done <<
That was for LHP with the wet Flow Dye.


_Modified by HeadMaster at 9:25 PM 9-12-2007_


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bildon ... is this a "simulated" configuration that was dyno'd? Or an actual 12v vr6 engine that was dyno'd? 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsports* »_600 RPM/Sec Dyno Test Lowest Low Average Best
Peak HorsePower 311.3 324.1 330.5 336.9
Peak Torque Lbs-Ft 278.1 289.5 295.3 301.0


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*

looks good now lets see it built and perform as expected


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_Bildon ... is this a "simulated" configuration that was dyno'd? 

This is part of how we design race engines. With the 4 cyl. engines we have found this to be very accurate for determining things like cross-sectional port areas , tuned intake runner & exhaust lengths, camshaft specs, lift requirements, choke points, etc. Hopefully it will be accurate in helping design the VR as well...what you see above is data extrapolated from a short port analysis. We have done the same analysis on the long port ... but the question is "What's the interaction?" ... the asymmetrical nature of this engine is difficult to model. 
I know many of you just want to see motors on dynos. Fair enough, but remember from page 1 that one of the reasons we started this project was to experiment with some of the new engine design software out there, to learn and apply the CFD tools we now have and to stop hand porting so much and develop some CNC port profiles. We have been learning about the new tools and methods for a while...and are now ready to implement. However we don't have our own CMM yet so we're still at the mercy of the engineering firms who do.
Stg 1 is done, easy stuff. Stg 2 is 75%.. just need to get it on the dyno for final tuning and component verification. Stg 3 is somewhere between 25-50% depending on how close our initial calculations are.
I'm sending Foffa's intake off to be scanned into a 3D file. I think this can be incorporated into the design of our 'shorty intake runners'. The way the "oval" port transitions to the round port over such a short distance is perfect. Thanks Foffa! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also, we are boring a block to 83.5mm RIGHT NOW. This will be our second 3L motor for testing. So very shortly we'll have 1 complete 2.9L and two 3L in various states of assembly.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (VWDave88)*

I get the feeling some (a lot of?) people have no idea what this thread is here for...Even after it is made very clear in the first page.


----------



## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

I've been checking in on this from the beginning, but I can't remember if anyone ever mentioned it. Does anybody remember a big VR that Velocity built back in the day that had like 85mm bores? IIRC they had to clearence the pistons to clear the crank but the idea was to get over 3.1 w/o stroking. From what I've read in the last few pages it seems that more piston area could make room for larger valves w/o the shrouding problems that were mentioned. Maybe none of this matters but I thought I could maybe help a little.















for trying to make the VR do what it _should_ do!!
Garth


_Modified by g60vw at 9:18 AM 9-13-2007_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (g60vw)*

Some interesting info up there. Shame the numbers for the runner length and the min/max plenum aren't up








One thing that strikes me is the 13mm intake lift for max flow choking at 6700. What would be the choke rpm at 11.5mm?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I'm concerned 85mm is going to cause overheating problems. The water jacket would be very thin at that diameter. But you are right... we do want as large a bore as possible.

_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_What would be the choke rpm at 11.5mm?

Well...change that and you change 100 other things








But a quick fiddle with the #s and it looks like ~5700 RPM.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Looking at many 12v VR6 dynos, I bet that it's close. 
Also, noticing how high the intake lift has to be vs exhaust lift. Interesting.


----------



## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (g60vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60vw* »_I've been checking in on this from the beginning, but I can't remember if anyone ever mentioned it. Does anybody remember a big VR that Velocity built back in the day that had like 85mm bores? IIRC they had to clearence the pistons to clear the crank but the idea was to get over 3.1 w/o stroking. 

I think the bore was actually 86 mm.







Didn't Eurosport build that Corrado?


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*

I thought that was Vic at Eurosport's Corrado?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (vdubjb)*

Bore was 85mm from what I remember, and it was Vic from Eurosport.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

... and ??? The big # was ?


----------



## eastsiderules (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

85mm piston leave you at least .100" wall thickness except where the bores siamese and that's not on the thrust side anyway.. FWIW..


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (eastsiderules)*

I'm trying to picture where you mean...but cant. Where are you saying the bore "Siamese" ?


----------



## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (vdubjb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubjb* »_I thought that was Vic at Eurosport's Corrado?

It was Vic from Eurosport. After doing a bit of searching, his car did have an 86 mm bore & pistons 3 & 4 required clearancing so they wouldn't collide.


_Modified by 15DGR V6 at 6:00 PM 9-13-2007_


----------



## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Whoops, I was thinking Velocity for some reason. Whatever







, at least some of you guys seem to remember the car. Just another thought to throw in here http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .

Garth


----------



## eastsiderules (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I'm trying to picture where you mean...but cant. Where are you saying the bore "Siamese" ?

















If you go diagonally from bore to bore the head stud hole marks the spot. Only it's at the bottom of the bore. You'll have to machine a notch there before honing the block. Just sonic test each block and you'll be fine.. at least in terms of water jackets. My concern would be the cylinders not staying round under high pressure.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (eastsiderules)*

why not use an r32 crank...... just a thought. but dont listen to me i dont know anything.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_but dont listen to me i dont know anything.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

Because we want 90.3 mm.
So I still want to know... what #s did that 86mm bore motor make?
Who made the pistons? Any info on the head and valvetrain?


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:32 PM 9-13-2007_


----------



## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, here's a link to some discussion about that engine.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_Bill, here's a link to some discussion about that engine.

Thanks. Good stuff. And I finally get to agree on something with EIP Rich







83.5mm is all the larger I'd be comfortable with in a *customer* motor. Now for the all out race motor...we can try something bigger.
Oh but still no power #s at all. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Take what EIP says with a grain of salt, they can blow up an 81mm motor faster then most people could blow up an 90mm one.








I have vague recollections of power in the 210-220whp range.


----------



## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Oh but still no power #s at all. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Someone mentioned 222 whp for that Corrado, but nothing confirmed w/dyno sheets.


----------



## eastsiderules (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*

An 85mm motor will make more than that... 

_Quote, originally posted by *15DGR V6* »_
Someone mentioned 222 whp for that Corrado, but nothing confirmed w/dyno sheets.


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## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (eastsiderules)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eastsiderules* »_An 85mm motor *should* make more than that... 



I'm just relaying info that was posted in the other thread.


----------



## eastsiderules (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*

Aye.


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## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (eastsiderules)*

http://www.torque-factory.com/...1.pdf

dont ever question my researching skillz..


----------



## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (vdubjb)*

Nice find. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (15DGR V6)*

JE pistons: 86mm, 11:1 CR (10.5)
Rods: Lightened OEM
Crank: Blanced OEM
Flywheel: Lightened OEM
Engine work: Benson's - Santa Ana
Head: 'Ported', 3 angle job, 
42mm int., 34.2mm exh.
Shrick Cam: 11.5mm lift, 276/276/112, 26-70 70-26
Ti retainers, HD springs
Exhaust: Stock OEM
ECU: AMS Chip, Stock Injectors, 7500 RPM limiter
Custom Intake Manifold: nice
Bigger Throttle Body: Dia. ? ABV ?
I see no HP figures ..but I can barely read it though. Anyone take a guess based on his ETs ? he car must weight very close to stock.
I like the approach. Keep it simple, bore it, cam, ECU tune...this is affordable and effective. Similar to our stg 2.
So somebody find this elusive EIP 240hp NA motor article now... Good luck


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (eastsiderules)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eastsiderules* »_
If you go diagonally from bore to bore the head stud hole marks the spot. Only it's at the bottom of the bore. You'll have to machine a notch there before honing the block. 









Bore notch: 13mm wide 10 mm deep
Just measured 2 blocks:
81mm bore/5.4mm wall
82mm bore/5.2mm wall
That would be .098" to .125" wall at 86 mm piston bore...at least in the area measured. Will check others later.


----------



## eastsiderules (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

That's it. The bore thickness isn't a big issue there. Just don't get the notch into the rings. Sonic test the blocks and all will be well.

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_








Bore notch: 13mm wide 10 mm deep
Just measured 2 blocks:
81mm bore/5.4mm wall
82mm bore/5.2mm wall
That would be .098" to .125" wall at 86 mm piston bore...at least in the area measured. Will check others later.


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (eastsiderules)*

its not that big of a deal i like my cyl walls thicker than 1 mm but thats just me i dont need 3.2 in a 12v if i wanted that much i would just get a 3.2 long block sorry guys 3.0l is about the biggest you can go reliably


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

What was the ET and I can tell you a rough hp.


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

you could spend the rest of your life trying to tweak a couple hp's here and there, (intake,exhaust,cam,injectors,timing,fuel pressure) when the most logical thing anyways would to put 24v head on it, missing the "point" of your exercise.
why do you think VW upgraded!!!! after 6-7 years they realized it was futile, and an outdated design from a performance standpoint. i hate to preach but---you seem to have alot of $$ and resources and we would all like to see the 24v grow more powerful. (without throwing on a turbo) most of us into performance are going to upgrade someday n e wayz to the 24v!!!) i imagine the 24v's potential could be 240chp w/o going into the block. what do you all think?????
peace-









_Modified by brian1973 at 6:59 PM 9-14-2007_

_Modified by brian1973 at 7:01 PM 9-14-2007_


_Modified by brian1973 at 7:02 PM 9-14-2007_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (brian1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brian1973* »_you could spend the rest of your life trying to tweak a couple hp's here and there, (intake,exhaust,cam,injectors,timing,fuel pressure) when the most logical thing anyways would to put 24v head on it, missing the "point" of your exercise.
why do you think VW upgraded!!!! after 6-7 years they realized it was futile, and an outdated design from a performance standpoint. i hate to preach but---you seem to have alot of $$ and resources and we would all like to see the 24v grow more powerful. 

Disagree, disagree, disagree. 
First, there are a zillion 12vs still out there. A 24v motor swap is not a cheap proposition, and a head swap is not possible. 
Second, VW didn't solve the whole VR6 conundrum just by putting on a 4-valve head, they just made a handicapped design better. The fundamental issues of the short/long runner setup still applies to the 24v.
I say go Bildon!


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Mr Black)*

First, there are a zillion 12vs still out there. A 24v motor swap is
not a cheap proposition, and a head swap is not possible. 
Second, VW didn't solve the whole VR6 conundrum just by putting on a
4-valve head, they just made a handicapped design better. The fundamental
issues of the short/long runner setup still applies to the 24v.
hey you can dress up a pig but its still a pig!. lol
i didnt mean a motor swap, im trading in my 2000 for a 2003 or newer cause im not gonna waste my time modding a 12v.
if you want to waste you resources go ahead but VW moved on so should you. for your next project build up a model "t" ford.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (brian1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brian1973* »_
hey you can dress up a pig but its still a pig!. lol

I'm pretty sure the only NA 24v VR6's quicker then my car are ones with R32 motors.. and they weren't anywhere near as cheap!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (brian1973)*

Brian my friend... you are ASSUMING that we don't do more 8v, 16v, 20v and 24v engines than we do 12v VR6s. That would be incorrect.
Now... we have not done a real 24v race engine...just bolt ons. Why? Probably because they are $$$$$. 
The reason we are doing this is because nearly everybody else failed to get the power from this engine that it should theoretically get...
We dont talk about other race engines here because this is the 12v VR6 forum... right?
You want a ~300hp NA 16v or 20v? Those are known entities... this 12v lump is a challenge. 
BTW, the 24v can make more than 240chp with the stock bottom end.
Oh and another thing... why do so many keep saying the 12v is "handicapped"? The 2.9L ABV makes 190 and easily tops 200 with a mild tune. Go look at the HP figures for most of your *V6* engines out there. The 12v VR ranks WAY up there in HP per liter.
These things are pretty good actually. 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:11 PM 9-14-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_What was the ET and I can tell you a rough hp.

It's hard to read but it says 14 flat with crap tires and lots of wheel spin...and that he estimates mid 13's with slicks and a diff...but he didnt have that on the car.


----------



## VWpowa (Mar 4, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (brian1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brian1973* »_you could spend the rest of your life trying to tweak a couple hp's here and there, (intake,exhaust,cam,injectors,timing,fuel pressure) when the most logical thing anyways would to put 24v head on it, missing the "point" of your exercise.
why do you think VW upgraded!!!! after 6-7 years they realized it was futile, and an outdated design from a performance standpoint. i hate to preach but---you seem to have alot of $$ and resources and we would all like to see the 24v grow more powerful. (without throwing on a turbo) most of us into performance are going to upgrade someday n e wayz to the 24v!!!) i imagine the 24v's potential could be 240chp w/o going into the block. what do you all think?????
peace-









_Modified by brian1973 at 6:59 PM 9-14-2007_

_Modified by brian1973 at 7:01 PM 9-14-2007_

_Modified by brian1973 at 7:02 PM 9-14-2007_


Wow who let the troll in . If your not interested in the 12 valve please leave.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
It's hard to read but it says 14 flat with crap tires and lots of wheel spin...and that he estimates mid 13's with slicks and a diff...but he didnt have that on the car.

Hard to say.. any mention of the trap speed? If it wasn't 103+ with spin, he wasn't making crap for power.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_It's hard to read but it says 14 flat with crap tires and lots of wheel spin...and that he estimates mid 13's with slicks and a diff...but he didnt have that on the car.

Sorry to get a bit off topic...
but man, I hate that old bald/crap tire excuse... get real.
IIRC, that 86mm car went 14.1/14.2.
Bill, glad to see your still plugging away at this.
Anyone dropping the 24v this and that BS needs to just eff off.










_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:53 AM 9-15-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

>> Wow who let the troll in .
Troll? Must have been Foffa







oh wait maybe they dont have Trolls in Sweden









_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Hard to say.. any mention of the trap speed? If it wasn't 103+ with spin, he wasn't making crap for power. 

"best time in the traps is 101, maybe 102"


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Wow who let the troll in .
Troll? Must have been Foffa







oh wait maybe they dont have Trolls in Sweden








"best time in the traps is 101, maybe 102"

hey ...we even got http://www.trollspeed.se


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Wow who let the troll in

???


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_

"best time in the traps is 101, maybe 102"

Using 2800lbs and 102mph it's 229 *crank*.
Using my car at 2400lbs and 106mph it's 220 crank. Figure I dyno at 187whp plus better weather probably puts me in the 190-195whp range.
I'd say it's fairly accurate for cars that hook. Wheel spin will be artificially inflating his trap speed. That being said my 81mm stock comp bottom with small cams and no headwork is making similar power then that motor in that car at that time.


----------



## Bjowett (Jul 6, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Not to mention that the 12V sings a far better tune than the 24V.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Bjowett)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bjowett* »_Not to mention that the 12V sings a far better tune than the 24V.

.:R you sure of that?








Sorry Bill...had to do it..








Keep up the good work.. us lurkers appreciate a good tech thread!!


----------



## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for vr6 12v guys i dont plan on getting rid of mine ...free bump for the thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I'm concerned 85mm is going to cause overheating problems. The water jacket would be very thin at that diameter. But you are right... we do want as large a bore as possible.


It does increase the operating temps a bit, and quickly... average tenp. I logged was 242 deg. F. but that was using Evans waterless coolant on a 71 mile drive avg. speed of 73mph.
85mm pistons does cause you to notch the block due to the siamesed pistons in the center, and depending what rods are used (I used Pauter) the sides may need clearancing. The sonic test left cyl. 1 with .010" and will crack under heat and pressure (I cracked 2) which is why I sleeved the bores.
83.5mm is perfect in my experience, I tried this first but I think 84mm would safely give you the maximum bore to efficiency you can get with this motor. It still usues the stock headgasket, safer sonic tolerance... heat is always an issue... I used H2O injection and a 100/91octane blend in the tank to combat my 11:1 CR no problems opreating temps went back to normal 218-236 under max. load. Hope this helps. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Morrado)*

Oh yeah I'll take pics of the interior of the block this evening as I have decided to go to the darkside I am removing the ABT stroker (95.6mm) for a stock crank dropping my CR to 8.5:1 and you know what happens from there







See you guys in the rearview


----------



## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: (Morrado)*

boooooooooooooost


----------



## Anson86-8v (Feb 17, 2003)

Thanks for sticking with this guys, I've read through the whole thing and there's a ton of good information. Could a mod go through and clean out some of the useless/trolling/bickering posts? It would make the useful information a lot simpler to find.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (G60ed777)*

Engine room in new place is done. Will start moving stuff in soon. Waiting for drywall dust to settle. It just keeps getting kicked up as we finish the other parts of the shop.








Also, new VR6 cams came in last week. Our custom grinds on the right. If these dont work, we'll grind more
























KingVR stopped by with a present!


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Are these cams the MK3 manifold (equal ports) or the MK4 (cam compensation) designs?


----------



## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*











_Modified by G60ed777 at 7:08 AM 9-21-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Both. Symmetrical F/R cams for OE manifold and unequal length ITB trumpets, and Asymmetrical F/R cams for short runner log mani and equal length ITB trumpets will be tested.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

You guys rock. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I've spent several days reading though this, you are doing some amazing work and all of us VW enthusiasts (VR or otherwise) should feel very lucky to have you guys on board.








Thanks and I'll be watching!
Brendan


----------



## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

Looking back on page 44 I noticed that Bildon lists the parts that will go into the stage 1 motor. 
I have a few questions about this motor configuration. 

1. Will the ECU be chipped or will it require a standalone? If it will be chipped will the chip be similar to the GIAC 268 chip? 
2. I noticed that Bildon decided on the CAT 266 cams. Are these cams really better than Shiricks 268 or Dougherty 268s? 
Thanks and I hope to be running Bildon stuff soon.


----------



## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

Anyone? Any new info?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Flyweight)*

>> 1. Will the ECU be chipped or will it require a standalone? 
Stg 1 will be our own "chip" Stg 2 will be either / or and stg 3 may require a stand alone but not unless we have to.
>> I noticed that Bildon decided on the CAT 266 cams. Are these cams really better than Shiricks 268 or Dougherty 268s?
Wait and see.








Hope to have engine #2 bored out this week. Will have pics etc of the build soon thereafter.


----------



## OrangeDUB (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Not to get off topic, but I've been watching this thread for the better half of a year now. It's great knowledge being an owner of a 12v...
Will you guys be developing cam profile software to compete with the one-and-only GIAC cam software? If so I'd be interested. 
Here's to you guys


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (OrangeDUB)*

they certainly will, and ill bet the software alone is going to make more of a difference than you would think


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Flyweight)*

Bill you still doing a dry sump set up?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Bill you still doing a dry sump set up?

Not unless we have to. Or if some of you turbo guys want to help fund the fabrication & R&D we can get on it right away.
OK so here is the latest by-product of this project. Light rods ( I mean LIGHT rods) for normally aspirated engines. We've had these in 144mm for some time but have now expanded to 159 and VR6 164mm. Since this project is exploring the upper boundaries of what an NA VR6 can do, we're lightening all the internal components to allow the engine to rev faster and higher...this includes the piston and rod assembly. There are plenty of so called "lightweight" rods on the market for the VR but in reality they are all pretty beefy to support turbo applications. So the need arose and we filled it. 
We are now introducing our new line of rods we are calling "Rev-Lite". While most forged VR6 race rods weigh in at around 600g (stock is ~655) and where other "lightweight" rods come in at around 570g, our VR6 NA race rods are currently only 525g, and we have plans to shave off a bit more to get closer to our target weight of 500g !
This in combination with our lighter pistons we're developing should allow for a Piston/Rod assembly under 900g.







(x6) This is about a 1.2kg reduction from stock...and that same weight now can come off the crank throws. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...av=63 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 3:20 PM 10-4-2007_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Not unless we have to. Or if some of you turbo guys want to help fund the fabrication & R&D we can get on it right away 

I have one built using a MKIV pan as a base.I would be happy to send it down to you if you could get some cast units made.
Put me down for a cast oil pan with 3 outlets...I need to lower this engine some more.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I have one built using a MKIV pan as a base.I would be happy to send it down to you if you could get some cast units made.
Put me down for a cast oil pan with 3 outlets...I need to lower this engine some more.

I told you to go dry sump.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
I told you to go dry sump.









Well now its time for others.
Just so we dont waste Bill's time in this...who wants?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Nice work with those rods! 1.2kg is some serious weight savings of the internal rotational assembly.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

1.2kg is a HUGE amount, that's great to hear! Aside from the crank throws, how much lighter can the crank go?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_1.2kg is a HUGE amount, that's great to hear! Aside from the crank throws, how much lighter can the crank go? 

None.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

So if you have the same explosive power in the cylinder, but the piston is lighter, that means the piston accelerates faster and that means more torque on the crank, right? Newtons 2nd law?
And you get higher RPM limit because there is less wasted energy by the pistons reversing direction?
Sorry, just thinking out loud. Grade 13 physics was a long time ago...


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*

i think the idea in lightening the rotating assembly it more to reduce resistance so technically yes the force normally lost to moving the weight of the rotating assembly is now instead transfered onto the crankshaft there by increasing the rotational force (torque) of the motor


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

13th grade?
Some of us had Aluminum baseball bats in 7th grade








jk Happy Friday


----------



## jfvr6 (May 22, 2006)

i am currently dying to see a dyno of the engine when you put the block back together!
i am pretty sure the result will be very nice!
do not give up...great job done at this point
JF


----------



## corozin43 (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: (jfvr6)*

Hi,
I've been reading this thread for the first time during the past two days, after being referred to it by a friend. 
I'm over in the UK and am currently in the middle of having an ABV rebuilt with the aim of trying to extract as much performance as is reasonably possible to create a reliable, daily driver car which will double up effectively for trackday use, and have something which is a little bit unique.
The reason it's taken me so long to find this thread was because I wasn't looking for it! I'd actually come to the conclusion that almost no one out there was tuning a 12v anymore (if they ever really did) and so I really thought I was on my own in doing this. Certainly over here in the UK and in Europe most guys just went straight for forced induction, and more latterly are chucking R32 lumps in. No-one ever tuned the 12v properly which is one of the reasons I decided to do it. 
This thread is really interesting, as it addresses a lot of the questions I've had under consideration over here. It's reassuring to know that I seem to be doing a lot of the right things as well. At the moment we don't really have a "target" output but I'm hoping to at least get up to the 240-250 wheel BHP zone. What I can offer the thread is to post up the details of the spec we're doing, and eventually some plots as a reference to what's possible on a built customer engine, something which seems to have been slightly lacking on here from what I've seen.

TARGET SPEC :
Euro spec 2.9 ABV, bored out to 83mm
Wossner pistons @ 12:1
Intake valves out to 42mm, exhaust valves unaltered (36mm)
274 cams, with solid lifters & uprated springs.
Lightened & balanced crank
Oversized throttle body (enlarged from the ABV version)
Fidanza 3.8kg flywheel
VW Motorsport VSR
Raceland 6 branch header out to sports cat (cat required for road use)
Everything will be weighed, matched & balanced before it goes back into the engine. The head is already flowed, as the engine was originally a Nothelle tuned item (the car used to be Nothelle's own UK press car)
Initially will be remapping the OEM ECU, but may go to standalone ECU (probably Emerald K3) in time.
Hopefully we'll be able to run this engine safely to at least 8,000rpm if not 8,500rpm as a result of using the lightened pistons, flywheel and crank together with the solid lifters. It should be a bloody screamer!
What's interesting is that the engineers we've talked to over here reckon that it is possible to lighten the VR6 crank safely, although I'm unclear how much weight can be removed they seem to think it will be worthwhile. Is this something you guys have experimented with and have verifiable results for? 
Whilst I realise this thread is (mostly) about pushing the 250+ barrier, I thought you might be interested to hear about this build, if for no other reason that I am seemingly one of the few people who is actually building a hard tuned 12v lump anywhere.
If I can answer any questions on this, by all means give me a shout and I'll try to answer them. In time I'll post up the dyno figures once it's run in as a reference point. Should be of some interest as we run 99 octane pump fuel over here, in different climate etc.
Meanwhile keep up the great work. This is a fascinating thread which has been of great use to me in confirming that the spec we're using for the build was the right one to do.
Regards from the UK,
John


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (corozin43)*

Hi John. Glad to see you joining in the 12v 'fun' . And yes, very few people have really done any meaningful development on the old 12v VR6.
Your specs here are about what we'd call our Stg. 1+ package.
>> I'm hoping to at least get up to the 240-250 wheel BHP zone. 
This # is achievable. It is about the point at which other have hit "the wall" we refer to early in this thread. However you may find that your camshaft selection and your VSR are limiting factors. 
You CAN get 250whp (barely) with the OE type manifold. (proven) This was already accomplished on a motor with 14:1, BVH, ported, and 288* cams. But making power to 8500 without changing the runner lengths. ?? Also watch the mean piston speed. At 8500 you're over 5000 ft/min which is F1 territory. We haven't tested the std. Wossner's over ~7300 yet. How much lighter have you made them?
Please do keep up updated as to how your engine does when assembled. We could build many different variants with the specs you listed above so every bit of extra data is helpful to the project as a whole. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## corozin43 (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

In all honesty I don't know that we'll be running the car as high as 8500rpm but I am aware that it is possible. The car used to run 7500rpm ok with standard pistons, cams and rods so if it pulls at least that with good power from the cams I've chosen then frankly I'll be happy with it. I chose the 274s because it looked like it would make better power up too than the 268s which everyone in the world seems to use, but would probably be a little easier to live with on a daily driver than the 288s would be, but still means I need to go to solid lifters.
I did go and have a look through the parts on your website Bill and was very interested in the lightweight rods you've developed, because that's about the only part of the internals which isn't being lightened. I would have contacted you about a set of these, but the build is already pushing the available budget so unfortunately I'm having to pass on the idea. What we are doing though is to weigh and balance the OE rods along with the pistons & rings so it doesn't shake itself to bits.
The build is already pushing the $10k-$12k mark, which includes some other stuff I've not mentioned (new engine loom, seam welded subframes, baffled sump etc). That's a lot of cash to put into a car which was probably only worth $7k before we started, and a lot of my friends think I'm mad - I know they'll understand when it's done.
Part of the inspiration for doing this came from some conversations I had maybe 6-7 years ago with an engine builder called Gary Bergstrom, who used to prepare Ken Lark's Corrado VR6 race car for the Volkswagen Racing Cup in the UK. He built a couple of race engines for the Willhire 6hrs in 2001 which he claimed ran around 280bhp/320lb torque. As far as I know he did this mostly by blueprinting stock internals, some "personal engineering" which he didn't detail too much, and using a set of cams which were to his own specification from Schrick and weren't commercially available. He also reckoned the engines were safe to 9000rpm, but set them at 8250 for racing in the 6hr race. 
Unfortunately I've long since lost contact with Bergstrom and I believe he may have returned to South Africa, but I've always been convinced the ABV could make big power if only the right things were done to it.
What I am interested in at the moment is the crank lightening. Have any of you guys tried this? If no-one knows then I'll let you know if it hangs together when we start it up


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (corozin43)*

>> He built a couple of race engines
And yet Grant takes credit for all of Ken's success?








>> Have any of you guys tried this?
Here's a mediocre knife edged crank we had done a while a go.


----------



## corozin43 (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Gary & Ken Lark parted ways in around 2002/3 after which Grant took over servicing and rebuilding the engines. At that time the race servicing was taken over by Ian Fowler (who I still have a number for) but I don't believe Ian did anything to the engines themselves unless something went wrong at the circuit. To be fair Grant puts his name on quite a few of the cars in the VW Cup but how many he actually prepares I couldn't say these days. 
However Grant has no involvement in this project. 
Thanks for the crank photo. I'm going to show this thread to the engineers next week and see if that inspires them beyond what they were already thinking
Cheers,
John


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (corozin43)*

John, can you post some images of your car in the Corrado forum? I'd like to see it in one of the calendars next year. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## obrescia (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (corozin43)*

please take a peak
http://www.atomicmotorsports.net/
ATOMIC MOTORSPORTS


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (obrescia)*


_Quote, originally posted by *obrescia* »_please take a peak
http://www.atomicmotorsports.net/
ATOMIC MOTORSPORTS


200whp?


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_200whp?









Yes, 200 WHP on DSR's DynoJet... That translates to about 182 WHP on the Mustang dyno across the parking lot at Extreme Imports.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*NEED mk4 LOWER MANI*

We're still looking for one of these to test. Have had many people offer to send us one but none have shown up.








Please dont make me go to the bone yard to get one


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: NEED mk4 LOWER MANI (Bildon Motorsport)*

Stock Mk4 lower? I'll ask around. I still have that upper to send you. I just have to remember it's under my desk.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: NEED mk4 LOWER MANI (need_a_VR6)*

Here is one for $10 on ebay, all-star-me posted about it on Foffa's thread: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: NEED mk4 LOWER MANI (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_ still have that upper to send you.

Don't need an upper. Have 2 of them.
Many mk3 manis also. And a VR5 lower.
Just need an mk4 VR6 lower.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: NEED mk4 LOWER MANI (Bildon Motorsport)*

I'll make some calls.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Progress....*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flyweight* »_ Any new info?

With the new shop finally coming together we have found a smidgen of time for the VR project. *Stg 2 motor is bored* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ... more next week...


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
With the new shop finally coming together we have found a smidgen of time for the VR project. *Stg 2 motor is bored* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ... more next week... 

the valve seals have started leaking on my car...i hope to god there is something available come spring


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (WannabeVWguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WannabeVWguy* »_
the valve seals have started leaking on my car...i hope to god there is something available come spring









Then send us your head and we'll port it, install new valves and a proper cam. It's not like we stopped doing work for people... hell that's why this project keeps getting shelved.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

sent an email/IM and waiting for a reply








bump cuz the thread got lost thanks to the vortex temporary wipe out of the technical forums


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: Progress.... (WannabeVWguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WannabeVWguy* »_
Apparently they were one off's by VW for the company in quebec which was running the cars. i have the name here somewhere so i'll post up as soon as i find it
EDIT...found it but other than multimedia there isnt much available
http://www.tracracingdepot.com/index.asp
http://www.tracracingdepot.com/04multienglish.asp
but it would be in the best interest of some of the companies wanting to develop 12V VR6 parts that they get in contact with these guys cuz as you can see from some of the vids this car was keeping up with that very interesting looking porsche and at one point passed it
also note in the video that the tach is going well past 7000 lol


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (WannabeVWguy)*

We used to deal with Trahan when they ran WC. Motor was sold to another shop in US who did a custom webcam & intake for it and got the power up where it should be.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

FWIW, none of the Trac 3.0+ engines or their heads ever made decent power in street cars.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*

Update:
In order to allow some of the customers for the stg 2 engines to keep their no maintenance hydraulic lifters we have designed 2 new camshaft profiles.
These new profiles have specific changes to allow higher lift and duration without requiring solid lifters. This was accomplished by lowering the acceleration values on the 'ramp' and also reducing the speed at which the valve hits the seat when closing. A lot of thought has to go into a design change like this. The cams are the results of the lift profiles that we felt were possible with hydraulic lifters. Understand what that means. We did not design cams first. First we determined what the lift profile needed to look like given the parameters the engines will be running under.
Most cam designers are just giving you lift and duration figures without taking into account the accelerations of the valve in all phases of it's operation are missing critical components of the design process. Ever wonder why cams with similar lift & dur figures from different companies perform so differently? *Because lift & dur are only part of the story.*
Both cams were designed with higher RPMs in mind. The VR6 has torque, so stg 2 is going to exploit the top end. The specific details of these cams is going to be withheld until we verify the results in the stg 2 motors. But we're talking about much long duration and higher lift that anything else currently on the market for hydraulic lifter engines. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The 3L stg 2 motor is coming along....








Remember that since the cylinder bores are 7.5 degrees from the head surface and 12.5 mm off crank centerline, many (most?) shops can not set up the block properly to bore on cylinder centerlines. When you choose your machinist, ask questions! ... caveat emptor.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

That's really exciting, I was just looking at the picture of the side by side cams, and the duration on the cams to the right of the picture is astounding with the naked eye. I'm anxious to see how the VR will respond to all this duration. Thumbs up to Bildon for not leaving any pages unturned. You will be seeing my business in the future I'm sure.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_ I was just looking at the picture of the side by side cams, and the duration on the cams to the right of the picture is astounding with the naked eye.

Those are the solid lifter cams. In case anyone was wondering.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Oh that makes more sense then, just out of curiousity, what is the rough duration of the cam furthest to the right?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (VRdublove)*

303° Full Race, Solid Lifter, big bump stick.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

3







3!


----------



## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
The 3L stg 2 motor is coming along....








Remember that since the cylinder bores are 7.5 degrees from the head surface and 12.5 mm off crank centerline, many (most?) shops can not set up the block properly to bore on cylinder centerlines. When you choose your machinist, ask questions! ... caveat emptor.


Your machinist didn't use a torque plate when boring or honing the engine?








On a very positive note though, all the congrats in the world to you guys for tackling this project and attempting to educate those of us reading and participating in this thread. Keep up the good work! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by idrivemyself at 3:45 AM 10-18-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (idrivemyself)*


_Quote, originally posted by *idrivemyself* »_
Your machinist didn't use a torque plate when boring or honing the engine?










Hah I knew somebody would say it! 
...I have been corrected by our machinist. 
This was a photo during the boring and the torque plate is used afterwards while honing. I should have realized this since the far cylinder isn't bored yet










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 8:35 PM 10-17-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

While discussing the honing today we came up with this... If you hone with a torque plate and then later install head studs instead of head bolts, or vice versa, the torque applied with be different and "could" distort the bores even though a torque plate was used. However it's of course still better than not paying attention to this issue at all. Having said that though, the VR6 block is very strong and not prone to head stud distortion at all. This is due to the depth at which the fasteners reach into the block and the fact that it is a relatively modern block design. This is not a 1950 'merican V8 design. Same goes for the main caps. While we do bore with the main caps torqued down it's not really required on these blocks.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*NEED CRANKSHAFTS*

*OK peeps... we need a few crankshafts. * Good ones.
I will pay the going rate for good cranks. Should be for the AAA motor with proper UNBENT timing ring. 
Also send me links to EBay, Vortex classified if you have tehm.. I might not have time to search myself. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Thanks.


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

*Re: NEED CRANKSHAFTS (Bildon Motorsport)*

I think I most of already know the answer; but it is worth bringing up again. How much more can be squeezed out of the intake manifold? I ran across this while researching another project of mine. Aparently the 2.Ol Neon crowd gain a few ponies and torques by putting a really thick spacer between the intake mani and the head, gaining intake volume.








http://www.neongoodies.com/Goo...shtml

I can prolly pick up a crank this weekend if you want me to.
WOW bump sticks that have even more lift than what we currently have?!? How much tolerance between the valves and pistons do we have? Will we still be able to have plained heads and mkIV headgaskets?


_Modified by jungle at 10:58 PM 10-23-2007_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: NEED CRANKSHAFTS (jungle)*

The spacer simply makes the intake runners LONGER, which helps produce better torque...and HP is simply a calculation of torque (work) being done at speed, you technically gain HP.
The spacer also slows down the heat transfer to the incoming air.
...and "plaining" or "decking" the VR head (or any head with no combustion chamber) will never affect the compression ratio or the piston-to-valve clearance...we've been over that as well.


----------



## atdivdub (Oct 12, 2006)

*Re: NEED CRANKSHAFTS (KingVR)*

God i love to just kick back and read this thread.


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

bildon, ive got a good crank (was done over at a machine shop about 2 years ago, and i then heard what they wanted to bore out a block, and laughed and said i'll just take my parts home and find a used motor, but thanks
should you want it, please let me know and we can discuss


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: NEED CRANKSHAFTS (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
...and "plaining" or "decking" the VR head (or any head with no combustion chamber) will never affect the compression ratio or the piston-to-valve clearance...we've been over that as well.


It can effect it slightly if it's been decked and the valve seats aren't cut deeper. You know that though.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*How do you use your VR ?*

Check his poll out please...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...id=29


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: How do you use your VR ? (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Check his poll out please...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...id=29


link doesnt work. goes back to the forum


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: How do you use your VR ? (Slayer)*

heres the link
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3511285


----------



## pressurecooker (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Use studs on your torque plate. You can buy just the shorties from ARP. Inset the washer seats on the torque plate for boring head clearance and problem solved...








It's a one time investment and it's better than snapping stretch bolts after a couple of uses.. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_While discussing the honing today we came up with this... If you hone with a torque plate and then later install head studs instead of head bolts, or vice versa, the torque applied with be different and "could" distort the bores even though a torque plate was used. However it's of course still better than not paying attention to this issue at all. Having said that though, the VR6 block is very strong and not prone to head stud distortion at all. This is due to the depth at which the fasteners reach into the block and the fact that it is a relatively modern block design. This is not a 1950 'merican V8 design. Same goes for the main caps. While we do bore with the main caps torqued down it's not really required on these blocks.


----------



## pressurecooker (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ Having said that though, the VR6 block is very strong and not prone to head stud distortion at all. This is due to the depth at which the fasteners reach into the block and the fact that it is a relatively modern block design. This is not a 1950 'merican V8 design. Same goes for the main caps. While we do bore with the main caps torqued down it's not really required on these blocks. 

Put a precision bore gage in and have someone torque the studs in stages and you can watch it change... so I wouldn't say "it's not prone to distortion at all". Perhaps better than a small block but not impervious..


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (pressurecooker)*

Wasn't it clear that we do use a torque plate?
The block is also heated to operating temperature. We then do a shallow bore to check for shadow before final boring.


----------



## Bjowett (Jul 6, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

I might have a good AAA crank or two floating around.... drop me a note [email protected]


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bjowett)*

Shooting it back up for some updates.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Is this the way you bore a block ? In your shop? and how long did that take?










_Modified by HeadMaster at 8:26 PM 11-5-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (HeadMaster)*

If you don't understand something about the setup you should ask questions first via IM or email. Then you wont appear to be so negative when you post. Hopefully this was not your intention.
If you are curious about our methods and successes IM or email and we'll tell you about 20+ years of race engine successes... numerous VW club & pro championships, success in World Challenge with other makes, all the old street stock championships leading up the the current Koni Cup, IMSA GTU, ALMS, Daytona 24 and Sebring 12hr, etc, etc ....and lately our successes in South America and Europe. 
BTW, When VW Motorsport selects you to run an engine program you are doing something right.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


----------



## mk2vrooom (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ 
BTW, When VW Motorsport selects you to run an engine program you are doing something right.


haha..thats the truth! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (mk2vrooom)*

Is the VR6 baffled sump available yet?


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: Progress.... (cata)*

Is there anyway to anticipate the difference/benefit if you were to bore it out to 84mm, and destroke it by 6mm? The rod length would need to be 170mm... on the other hand how would compression be effected by moving the piston 6mm south?
Thanks


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Progress.... (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_Is there anyway to anticipate the difference/benefit if you were to bore it out to 84mm, and destroke it by 6mm? The rod length would need to be 170mm... on the other hand how would compression be effected by moving the piston 6mm south?
Thanks

You would have to lengthen your connecting rod to accommodate this change so that the piston hits the same location at TDC just like it does in the factory configuration. It simply wouldn't move as far south which would reduce the stroke/displacement.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (KingVR)*

>> Is the VR6 baffled sump available yet?
We were supposed to see a prototype weeks ago. Still waiting









_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
You would have to lengthen your connecting rod to accommodate this change. 

Or pin height 'a la' PL vs 9A


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Free bump. Sold my turbo kit, gonna get big cams








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgsfwPHjnog


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Weak VR)*

Nice, sounds like a 911 late night at Daytona 24


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB...16202
I thought i would throw this into the mix...just cuz they are doing some VR development....I found thier head work interesting....
"The head started out by getting our *Stage 3 porting job which improved flow 30%* through the head and evened out the rather uneven port of the 12v head. 2mm Oversize valves went in, inconnel on the exhaust, held up by high rate valve springs, Ti-Retainers and OE lifters. Techtonics supplied some 268 cams and we’ll likely test a set of 276’s as well. 
The block was overbored to 82.5mm for some JE pistons with 9:1 compression, Bildon forged rods, prissy’d up stock crank with 034Motorsport coated rod and crank bearings. The main and rods were TQ’d with some ARP hardware, the entire assy balanced to within 1 gram, and the whole shebang bolted together with ARP Head studs and an MLS head gasket. "


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: Progress.... (KingVR)*

okay ... so once you had you 170mm con rods... is there some way to anticipate the difference of a 'square' vr6 with 84mm bore and 84mm stroke? Compression should be the same, if the displacement has changed it's only by a fraction of a ci... Or will the only benefit be that it would be easier to rev higher due to the shorter stroke? However, as discussed here and other threads, with the poorly flowing head, extra rev's aren't really a good thing with the vr6... 
On the other hand, general rule of thumb suggests that a bigger bore will allow for more hp ...


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (ExtremeVR6)*

>> is there some way to anticipate the difference of a 'square' vr6 with 84mm bore and 84mm stroke?
What are you really looking for? A formula to get HP increases from stroke reduction and bore increase? The HP increase come from having more kabooms per unit time. The short stroke helps facilitate this but does not alone make power.
As you chase more HP and keep bumping up the RPM allowing you to make this power, you keep falling behind in the torque department. Remember that those impressive F1 engines making ~800hp only makes ~200 lb/ft of torque. 
>>with the poorly flowing head
Poor?, Compared to what? An S2000 head or an other 2v VW head?
>> and evened out the rather uneven port of the 12v head. 










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:48 PM 11-7-2007_


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

poor bildon guys









honestly at page 50 of this thread why are people still questioning what these guys are doing jeez i wish i didnt own a VW somtimes i meet more serious honda guys when it comes to building motors....
just stop the questions let them build it then ask questions.....
sorry for the thread clutter just read the dam thread before you post its about 30 pages of people asking the same crap if you dont have time to read it all you shouldnt be working on car's or even talking about them for that matter....sorry again bildon for drama on the thread i just get excited that when i see the thread bumped thinking theres gonna be some good info from somone and its "THAT GUY" asking why not put a 24v head on it.......we all know the 12v head isnt the best head......


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_poor bildon guys








i just get excited that when i see the thread bumped thinking theres gonna be some good info 

Here's some good new info...
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...av=62
For those building "All Motor" VRs or NASA GTS Challenge motors these 13:1 racing pistons we developed with Wossner are now available. We're also going to do something even more slick with Wiseco if we can ju$tify the cost.
Regarding the questions I dont mind. In fact I'm rather surprised and pleased that this hasn't turned into a bashing session as so many other threads on the Vortex are. You guys have more patience that I thought







I do apologize for the way this has all dragged out. So much else has got in the way this year and we've also seen a lull in the VR6 engine builds this year which means we were not able to piggy back the stg 2 or 3 projects on any of that work which we had planned to do. So the VR work suffers while the 16v engines get built.
Look for a Xmas present from us







Might look something like this ...


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

so if i send you a 12v motor can you guys build it up for me or do you only build engines for your race teams? (im talking about n/a setups only) furthermore is there engine "packages" to choose from that are proven to produce a certain hp range? i have heard about your "stage" motors but am not sure how make one. and finally what are your full race (with no modification limits) engins puttin to the ground? i noticed you have new pistons out and are still working on crankshaft/s design, weight reduction.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Boo, no off the shelf 84s!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*

Paul, what are you going on about? 
Brian, yes we will build you an engine, part of the reason we moved into a new more "customer friendly" location is to do more with street cars. Email us to discuss the particulars...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Paul, what are you going on about? 


83.5mm max size.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

So what is the address of your new shop so we can come by and drop off some parts ?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*

ah... Since we're having these made as custom pistons I don't think there will be a problem having them made in any bore diameter you want. I'll check on the limitation of the raw forgings.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (HeadMaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_ So what is the address of your new shop so we can come by and drop off some parts ?

140 Lake Dr. Wexford, PA 15090 is the new 'customer center'. This is now open in conjunction with ACS our parent company. We still have our old warehouse, fab and machine services separate from this new location. The new place has a showroom, engine assembly area, light fab and chip tuning center and we'll usually have a project car or two in there as well. It's small but much more suitable for customers.
You'll be seeing some announcements in various places about the new place and some new services.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:36 PM 11-8-2007_


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

What is 179 Hampshire Dr we sent some parts there and they came back that there was no shop there? And By the way I don't think you should be telling these guys how we don't know what we are doing becuse we use the wrong machines to do are job. As in othere shops


_Modified by HeadMaster at 8:09 PM 11-8-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (HeadMaster)*

Headmaster you didnt send us any parts. You are correct that there is no shop at that address. It's the parent co's business office only.
Why would I tell anyone you don't know what you are doing? I don't know you at all. 
If you really want to discuss our corporate and physical structure please email us.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Question:
what do you think about a 3 inch exhaust mated up to your downpipe? yah/nah?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Weak VR)*

Stg 1 & 2 nah.
Stg 3 ... untested. But it unlikely it will need a 3". Maybe a 70mm (2.75")


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Try picking up a phone you never answer. Like i said back a ways we were on are way to ind.NHRA nationals. and went by to see shop and all we could find was a house. I was at a few shop in you area and they didn't know who you were. For a machine shop that is so big as you put out it seems that we would be able to call on a phone and talk to one about the work . Most of my work comes to us in this manor. 


_Modified by HeadMaster at 8:44 PM 11-8-2007_


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Stg 1 & 2 nah.
Stg 3 ... untested. But it unlikely it will need a 3". Maybe a 70mm (2.75") 

hmm interesting. Im might be putting together my all motor setup w/TT 276's. But i still have my 3inch on from my turbo build. right now its 3 inch from the stock DP to a 3 inch magnaflow muffler, no cat or res.. very loud and aggressive.
ill prolly keep it just cause i cant sell the darn thing


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Weak VR)*

Are you running a header if so it will work and if not it won't Any time you can move more air out it will help you move more air in. each cyl loves to have its own pipe to blow through.


_Modified by HeadMaster at 8:58 PM 11-8-2007_


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (HeadMaster)*

well i will be doing the ported manis trick, along with either a TT or Bildon downpipe


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (HeadMaster)*

Working on a Jeep head at this time and trying get low end power and we have 54" primary pipes and were are making 346 hp 5400rpm and max tq.was 353lbs. on dyno. Still building intake for it.


----------



## HeadMaster (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Weak VR)*

There to short and they have 3 into one thing so your trying to push three cyl. into one pipe or manifold with a lot of sharp turns. with all the work you put in on the manifolds there are some headers that are cheap you can mod them a lot easier. Just cut add. Remember think of each cyl as individuals that work all by them selves. as you do with the intake. There just are working together as 6 cyl.s


_Modified by HeadMaster at 9:24 PM 11-8-2007_


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (HeadMaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HeadMaster* »_ Working on a Jeep head at this time and trying get low end power and we have 54" primary pipes and were are making 346 hp 5400rpm and max tq.was 353lbs. on dyno. Still building intake for it. 

dude, why the **** are you talking about your jeep here? this forum is for the 12v 2.8L. no one wants to hear some bull**** about your ******* truck!!
I really hate it when i have 15 emails from vortex, then log in to read some junk that doesn't belong here. take it to the 4wd forum or something,


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Weak VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weak VR* »_well i will be doing the ported manis trick, along with either a TT or Bildon downpipe

The ported mani is labor intensive but does work. The TT/Bildon (same thing) DP is just a faster way of achieving the same result. On a std. engine there are no gains. On larger engines with cams (stg 2) it helps a little. 
The OE VR exhaust manifold has not been improved upon by any "header" manufacturer. The OE manifold works well on 2.8-2.9L engines as it is properly designed with runner lengths that allow for efficient scavenging. 
Having said this, could a "header" with an alternate configuration improve performance on a large displacement and/or high RPM VR? It's possible. There are a lot of variables to work through however.
A 3" pipe would only be an advantage on a forced induction motor or a full race engine making in excess of 275hp. Depending on where you want your torque to develop a 2.5" is sufficient to ~260 and a 2.75 will work past 300hp.


----------



## rventoo7 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: Progress.... (Weak VR)*

I have a 3" exaust on my vr6, it was ment for a turbo 16v but working out well with ported manifolds n dp on the vr 
specs and dyno:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3529783


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (rventoo7)*








WOW! what kind of dyno was that on? those seem pretty high for a stock cammed VR. But very impressive!
Bildon: Good reply, i understand what your saying, but as of right now, ill be running the 3 inch until its sold, then ill buy an autotech.
In case you dont remember, which i assume you dont, here is my setup:
BVH Schrick 41/36.2
INA LW followers
Autotech Springs
stock intake mani
stock exhaust manis/dp
stock 2.8L Block with MK3 Headgasket
autotech 3.94 RP
ACT clutch
LSD
3 inch downpipe back exhaust
turn2 CAI
I put down 174/180 trq last year with a 3.1L block, but i over revved and spun bearings... Now im back to a 2.8L and looking at ading 276's, the dp, and euro cloning my intake manifold.

ok sorry to get off-track!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I'll check on the limitation of the raw forgings.

Thanks Bill, I'm allowed 3L so I need to get as close as I can within a few cc's.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*

I have seen some dynos with ported, 3 angle heads on the 2.8L block, but does anyone have a dyno of a BVH (around 42/36) on a 2.8L block? Seems like not too many people do it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Thanks Bill, I'm allowed 3L so I need to get as close as I can within a few cc's.

Heard back from Germany this AM. We can do 85mm no problem. So the current piston configuration is available now from 82mm to 85mm (and up if you want to crack your cyl walls)







and from 10:1 (custom) to 11:1 (standard) to 13:1 (custom). Note if somebody wants a CR higher than 13:1 we can do this also.
We're redesigning the piston crowns on these high comp custom pistons to improve the combustion chamber. More on that later.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Thanks Bill, I'd be looking for 84mm and either 13:1 or 14:1. I won't be able to make a firm decision until next years rules are out.. hopefully soon!! I'll be in touch.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*

whats the maximum piston weight required to run your bildon rev-lite connecting rods? and what type of price for those rods? iam just a bit curious.


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (fourthchirpin)*

two questions for Bildon:
1. What does stage one consist of?
2. How much?
thanks


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote »_
whats the maximum piston weight required to run your bildon rev-lite connecting rods? and what type of price for those rods? iam just a bit curious.

The crank will be balanced to the assembly. What is your piston weight?
Introductory rod price is currently: $575/set

_Quote »_
1. What does stage one consist of?
2. How much?

We build everything to customer specs. But as we are learning the street car guys often just want to be told what to buy. So... email us and we'll walk you through the options as i's far too much to lay out here. We do have some basic services pricing that we really need to get onto our website. Here is some pricing to give you a ballpark...
Basic Head Labor: 
1. Disassemble, remove and replace oil plugs and studs, clean, precision valve job, set valve spring heights and pressures, resurface head, assemble * $425.00 
Additional Race Head Labor: 
2. Pocket port ** $180.00
3. Full Porting ** $600.00
4. Remove and replace valve guides if needed * $132.00
5. Large seat installation * $250.00
6. Valve job surcharge for Large Seat * $50.00
7. Shipping charges to Bildon Motorsport $40.00
Block Labor: VR6
Knife edge crankshaft $285.00
Balance knife edge crank $175.00
Remove Plugs & Clean Crank $20.00
R&R Oil Galley Plugs $100.00
Polish Crank $100.00
Clean Block** $100.00
Deck Block $80.00
Bore & Hone $370.00
**block cleaning depends on removing oil galley plugs etc. 
more if it needs shot blasted as you need to remove both jackshaft bearings and oil pump drive bushing


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
The crank will be balanced to the assembly. What is your piston weight?
Introductory rod price is currently: $575/set


300-320g then the wrist pin weight. another ~60g


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
The crank will be balanced to the assembly. What is your piston weight?
Introductory rod price is currently: $575/set
We build everything to customer specs. But as we are learning the street car guys often just want to be told what to buy. So... email us and we'll walk you through the options as i's far too much to lay out here. We do have some basic services pricing that we really need to get onto our website. Here is some pricing to give you a ballpark...
Basic Head Labor: 
1. Disassemble, remove and replace oil plugs and studs, clean, precision valve job, set valve spring heights and pressures, resurface head, assemble * $425.00 
Additional Race Head Labor: 
2. Pocket port ** $180.00
3. Full Porting ** $600.00
4. Remove and replace valve guides if needed * $132.00
5. Large seat installation * $250.00
6. Valve job surcharge for Large Seat * $50.00
7. Shipping charges to Bildon Motorsport $40.00
Block Labor: VR6
*Knife edge crankshaft $285.00
Balance knife edge crank $175.00*
Remove Plugs & Clean Crank $20.00
R&R Oil Galley Plugs $100.00
Polish Crank $100.00
Clean Block** $100.00
Deck Block $80.00
Bore & Hone $370.00
**block cleaning depends on removing oil galley plugs etc. 
more if it needs shot blasted as you need to remove both jackshaft bearings and oil pump drive bushing

so you will sell a knife edge crank without rebalancing? makes no sense to me..


----------



## OrangeDUB (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (inopias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inopias* »_
so you will sell a knife edge crank without rebalancing? makes no sense to me.. 

What is with the bashing on this thread??? You're a dick.
Bildon is doing great things. Keep up the good work guys!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (inopias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inopias* »_
so you will sell a knife edge crank without rebalancing? makes no sense to me.. 

You're right in that it would not make much sense. That should read "Balance Crank". Thanks for caching that cut & paste error. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Good prices on a lot of the machine work.. Matrix wanted over a grand to knifedge a crank.


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (OrangeDUB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OrangeDUB* »_
What is with the bashing on this thread??? You're a dick.
Bildon is doing great things. Keep up the good work guys!









it was a question, and he answered it. you are the dick for *ass*uming im bashing the thread. 
thanks


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

does "bildon" have any of their engines dyno charts posted at=
<http://www.vr6dynos.com/allmotor.shtml>?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
We build everything to customer specs. But as we are learning the street car guys often just want to be told what to buy.

Another way to look at this is we want you to do all the fancy engineering and to be able to make a trusted purchase. It's nice to know that you're buying something that's been tested and proven, instead of making the same mistakes other people have made (my route). 
Keep up the good work, can't wait to see more results








-m


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*



Bildon Motorsport said:


> We build everything to customer specs. But as we are learning the street car guys often just want to be told what to buy.QUOTE]
> There is two sides to this statement....
> As a "street car guy" its painfully obvious that, I am not an engine builder / machinist / have any experience BUILDING engines.
> Thats what i expect from a machine shop / engine builder to do for me. Along with that, i also expect fair value for what i am paying for, along with the engine builders knowledge in their trade for what will / will not work. To be honest also, alot of the street car guys do their own wrenching, on limited budgets, to extract the most potential from their cars . No shame in that far as i see it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Progress.... (Northren vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Northren vr6* »_
There is two sides to this statement....
As a "street car guy" its painfully obvious that, I am not an engine builder / machinist / have any experience BUILDING engines.
Thats what i expect from a machine shop / engine builder to do for me. Along with that, i also expect fair value for what i am paying for, along with the engine builders knowledge in their trade for what will / will not work. To be honest also, alot of the street car guys do their own wrenching, on limited budgets, to extract the most potential from their cars . No shame in that far as i see it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

i couldnt agree more http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by eurobred at 9:48 AM 11-13-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (brian1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brian1973* »_does "bildon" have any of their engines dyno charts posted at=
<http://www.vr6dynos.com/allmotor.shtml>?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

No didnt know about it. But when we post some of them here you will be more than welcome to add them to your site.
We're working on new site content now and the Stg 1 & Sg 2 stuff will finally be online. You can snag what you want from there when it goes live.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Northren vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Northren vr6* »_


Bildon Motorsport said:


> To be honest also, alot of the street car guys do their own wrenching, on limited budgets, to extract the most potential from their cars . No shame in that far as i see it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif






Bildon Motorsport said:


> Agreed! I hope I didn't come off as dismissive with my comments. What I meant was that with our racing customers, we are often told exactly what is required due to rules, regs etc. and the fact that most racers are technically savvy about their plans...even if at just a high level...leaving us to the detail decisions on how to reach their goals.
> We understand that with our expansion to the street car market we will need to be supportive of those who want performance but may not be as knowledgeable or simply may not have the time to deal with the build at all. I didn't in anyway mean that we were not willing to help guide the customer through the process and to educate.
> The comment about "we're learning" was more of a reference to the number of guys who seem to fall into the "tell me how to go faster" category vs the guys on here for instance that are contributing and have ideas on how they want to proceed with their builds but might not be so involved in the smaller details.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ "tell me how to go faster" 

I have posted multiple threads on just that subject for those interested.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I have posted multiple threads on just that subject for those interested.









no one likes the "learn how to drive" and "loose weight" answers though


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*



Bildon Motorsport said:


> "Agreed! I hope I didn't come off as dismissive with my comments. What I meant was that with our racing customers, we are often told exactly what is required due to rules, regs etc. and the fact that most racers are technically savvy about their plans...even if at just a high level...leaving us to the detail decisions on how to reach their goals."
> the biggest differance between racers (organized events) and us street guys is; racers need every HP they can get. that means if dissembling a head and putting in 2mm bigger valves to gain 3 HP, its worth it. or knife edging a crank to gain a determined amount of RPMs. these things are not typically worth it for street guys with cars that never see a track. exchanging a higher flowing intake manifold for 10 or so HP maybe in some guys capabilities at home, but usually someone wouldnt want to open up their head/block in a garage unless they have some SERIOUS mechanical skills/tools. not to say i havent seen some try mods that are above their capabilities, not too long ago one guy had pics of his civic (in a storage unit) engine tore apart, in the middle of installing a $3000 turbo, for sale around here on craigslist, "as is"
> modications are great if they are worth the time-effort-$$,pain and sweat to the car owner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
> 
> ...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (brian1973)*

I still don't understand why the 'street guys' bother doing anything at all.. but that's not the point either.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Have you guys considered building a mkiv lower that more closely resembles the Euro lower?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (VRdublove)*

We looked at the one Foffa sent (pictured earlier in this thread) and thought that would be a great idea...but then the reality of making a 6 cyl version that mated up to a mk3 or mk4 made us realize this wasn't such a good idea. It would be cheaper to shorten the top portion and then you could also improve the plenum. And yes we are well aware of all the turbo intakes out there so no need to flood he thread with "how about this one" posts


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Any updates on the VR6 modeling? Have you got a fully spec'd computer model to start testing? Last I remembered you where molding the runners and gathering 3d measurements to try to get some sims to find out some to the weak points more precisely.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (kevwithoutacorrado)*

The engine simulations have been tabled due to lack of resources. But we are progressing with 3D modeling of the cylinder heads for the purposes of doing CFD analysis and faster porting.
Basically we're following this process:
http://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaafsm.htm


----------



## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hello,
I keep coming back to this thread from time to time, as it is probably one of the most in-depth technical threads that I have ever come across on Vortex.
I know that you stated earlier that you want do research specifically for an OEM 12v head, but I have a question:
Would you ever consider designing a brand new 12v VR6 cylinder head, intake & exhaust manifolds, of a better design? Again, I know this is not what you are here to accomplish, but it would be great to see what a proper (performance-designed) cylinder head could do for this motor.
Keep up the great work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Jettaboy1884)*

>> Would you ever consider designing a brand new 12v VR6 cylinder head,
No.
>> a better design? 
Already exists. VW improved the head design in numerous ways with the 24v VR. They also closed the cylinder angle offset to 10° which helps reduce the disadvantage that one bank of cylinders has.


----------



## Ash Backwards GTI (Nov 2, 2003)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Was I reading/adding correctly... knife edge and balance of the crankshaft is $460?
Thanks, Ashley


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Ash Backwards GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ash Backwards GTI* »_Was I reading/adding correctly... knife edge and balance of the crankshaft is $460?

Yes but you also need to remove the crank plugs, clean crank and R&R the oil plugs. So to do it right you're looking at closer to $600 for a 6 cyl. crank.
New Wossner 12:1 thru 14:1 design. Notice dish depth.







http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...av=62


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

Even though I haven't had a VR in over a year, I still visit this thread daily and love what you guys are doing with it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

If VW had stuck the VR6 in a car and turned it the right way, I would still have one, but alas.... the tranny is stuck beside the engine instead of behind it..


----------



## blau (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (djsheijkdfj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djsheijkdfj* »_Even though I haven't had a VR in over a year, I still visit this thread daily and love what you guys are doing with it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

If VW had stuck the VR6 in a car and turned it the right way, I would still have one, but alas.... the tranny is stuck beside the engine instead of behind it..









I hope to rectify this problem.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com...77257


----------



## JarrettJettaVR6 (Jul 10, 2005)

i gotta read through this


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (djsheijkdfj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djsheijkdfj* »_the tranny is stuck beside the engine instead of behind it..









http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3543488
join the party!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (nick526)*

Please let's not start discussing other threads here...keep this on point please...however to the point on this engine the 30% figure previously cited is not verifiable. I talked to 034 about it. That's not a dig on 034... I just want to make sure that this thread is always working with proven #s. 30% would be more than we've achieved (so far) and more than anyone else I've heard of doing with a VR6 head.


----------



## Golfmk3_18 (Sep 22, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

I dont know how far along you guys are ( i didnt read the full 50 pages) but i may be able to get you some info on a 260whp all motor 12v vr6 thats from around here. What i know so far is the following:
-cryo treated + bored out bottom end (3.0L)
-Big port head with match-ported headers to 3'' straight exhaust (no cat)
-Titanium valves, valve springs, retainers (not sure on solid or hydro lifters)
-Custom built hollow 288* Camshafts
-Lightened pulleys + underdrive crank pulley
-Dry sump oil pan + dry sump oil pump + oil squirters to all cylinders
-Custom ITB set-up
-stand alone ECU ( no cat, removed egr, removed canister purge, etc)
-Knife edged lightened crankshaft + high compression pistons (13:1) all pistons and rods balanced
-Lightened flywheel (approx 5 lbs)
-custom Built fuel rail, RC injectors, walbro inline fuel pump
I've never seen the car in action but i've seen it on the Dyno, the car DOES NOT IDLE. It must be kept at 3500rpm or higher or it just stalls out, and hits a little over 260whp at approx 8600 rpm. 
It is not a very drivable car, it is built on solid engine mounts, and is very stiff...the clutch is simply an ON-OFF disc, the car always races in events with a rolling start because it has no ''take-off'' capabilities, it is built on maximum HP to the point where a lot of torque is sacrificed...
--Let me know if you want/need any specs, details ,etc, i'll do my best to get some info for you http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Golfmk3_18)*

Well of course we want as much info about this as possible! Especially since 90% of the claims we've seen fall short when pressed for details. But that HP # you quote there is achievable and I know others must have done it. 
> -cryo treated 
This should not be needed on a well seasoned block. We have not seen shift on used VR blocks. Hey but I guess it cant hurt.
> -Custom built hollow 288* Camshafts
Would like to know specs. TT makes a 288*
> underdrive crank pulley
hope they kept a damper.
> -Dry sump oil pan 
There are people on here who need this. Unless it's the one off billet pan I saw wayyyy back in this thread we'd be very interested in the pan.
> + oil squirters to all cylinders
Stock
> -Custom ITB set-up
VERY interested. We have a setup but it could be better. Anythign you can get on the ITBs woudl be very much appreciated.
>> -Knife edged lightened crankshaft
I thought it was dry sump? Knife edging is used to cut through oil in the pan. Dry sump cranks are different. They use stubby aerodynamic counterweights. Look at a Nascrap crank.
>> -Lightened flywheel (approx 5 lbs)
Thats not heavy enough for the clutch to engage properly...no wonder it wont roll off







So it's basically a flex plate?
You seem to have a lot of info on this car for never having seen it. Is it posted online somewhere? I see you are from Quebec. Je parle Francais so if its on a french website ...pas de probleme!


----------



## VW_IS_life (Oct 1, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I see you are from Quebec. Je parle Francais so if its on a french website ...pas de probleme! 

Bill, are you france-french or canadian-french, or just know french?b 
anyway, bonne chance avec ce projet! 


_Modified by VW_IS_life at 11:26 AM 11-16-2007_


----------



## Golfmk3_18 (Sep 22, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Well of course we want as much info about this as possible! Especially since 90% of the claims we've seen fall short when pressed for details. But that HP # you quote there is achievable and I know others must have done it. 
> -cryo treated 
This should not be needed on a well seasoned block. We have not seen shift on used VR blocks. Hey but I guess it cant hurt.
> -Custom built hollow 288* Camshafts
Would like to know specs. TT makes a 288*
> underdrive crank pulley
hope they kept a damper.
> -Dry sump oil pan 
There are people on here who need this. Unless it's the one off billet pan I saw wayyyy back in this thread we'd be very interested in the pan.
> + oil squirters to all cylinders
Stock
> -Custom ITB set-up
VERY interested. We have a setup but it could be better. Anythign you can get on the ITBs woudl be very much appreciated.
>> -Knife edged lightened crankshaft
I thought it was dry sump? Knife edging is used to cut through oil in the pan. Dry sump cranks are different. They use stubby aerodynamic counterweights. Look at a Nascrap crank.
>> -Lightened flywheel (approx 5 lbs)
Thats not heavy enough for the clutch to engage properly...no wonder it wont roll off







So it's basically a flex plate?
You seem to have a lot of info on this car for never having seen it. Is it posted online somewhere? I see you are from Quebec. Je parle Francais so if its on a french website ...pas de probleme!










--The info I have on the car I got from the owner. I havent seen it at the track therefore dont know how it performs, but i've seen it on the dyno and this is really just a race car, it has no street driving capabilities what so ever...... He had it built by a company from around here purely for lapping events., they do only race car build ups (mostly bmw and subaru) but they do some VW. They machined alot of the stuff themselfs, I.E. fuel rail, rods, and a few other components. They also ported and polished the head themselves and port matched everything in-house ( they have a flow bench)
I'll contact the owner and ask him as much as possible about the ITB's and underdrive pulley ( i dont think they did keep a damper...the pulley was machined in-house) as for the oil squirters im pretty sure they were tampered with.
The bloc was cryo treated before they new they were going NA, it was initally for a FI application, they just decided to use it anyway The hollow cams are very similar to a eurospec cam, but the guys who built the car had the cams custom made i dont know the exact specs but i'll get all the info i can on that as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
EDIT: The ITB set up i beleive came from a BMW ITB set up that was modified to fit the VR, it was initially for a 2.8L inline 6 out of a 325.

The car is just crazy to drive if you ask me, he's on a hydraulic suspension , electronically controled from the cluster, completely gutted ( its a mark3 gti) full roll cage, sparco seat and harness, sequential tranny ( not sure whats in it but it makes insane amount of noise when winding up, as if it was all straight gears...really cant say what it is though) he's running hankook C51 slicks on magnesium wheels imported from europe, dont even know the company that makes em....I will definatly try and get you all the info i can , i'll try to get the owner on here , he likes to talk about the car, maybe he'll come have a chat.
Il parle francais seulement, mais si tu comprends bien ca devrait pas etre un probleme










_Modified by Golfmk3_18 at 2:33 PM 11-16-2007_


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

might seem obvious but pictures are worth 1000 words







for that particular car (dyno graph too?) better yet point the builders of that engine in the direction of this thread


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (VW_IS_life)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_IS_life* »_
Bill, are you france-french or canadian-french, or just know french?b 
anyway, bonne chance avec ce projet! 
_Modified by VW_IS_life at 11:26 AM 11-16-2007_

Just well educamated







Spent many weekends in Quebec in my younger days. Love Montreal on an F1 weekend! Awesome town... spent my honeymoon in Quebec City, Tremblant etc. 
>> built by a company from around here purely for lapping events.
Since you say 'only a few VWs' I assume it's not Trac then? If you can find out who built it I'd like to chat them up about it. Saving money on our project by learning from other's issues is a big help.


----------



## Golfmk3_18 (Sep 22, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_might seem obvious but pictures are worth 1000 words







for that particular car (dyno graph too?) better yet point the builders of that engine in the direction of this thread

yea if you read my edit on my post i said i'll try to get him to come on here, he doesnt speak english though, but worse comes to worse i can translate. I dont have any dyno graphs since its not my car, but he probably has copies that we can scan for him


----------



## Golfmk3_18 (Sep 22, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Just well educamated







Spent many weekends in Quebec in my younger days. Love Montreal on an F1 weekend! Awesome town... spent my honeymoon in Quebec City, Tremblant etc. 
>> built by a company from around here purely for lapping events.
Since you say 'only a few VWs' I assume it's not Trac then? If you can find out who built it I'd like to chat them up about it. Saving money on our project by learning from other's issues is a big help.


Heh montreal F1 week end is great i must agree, and tremblant during ski season is just insane. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The son of the owner of the company that built the car teaches auto mechanics , i know him fairly well, I will also ask him if he has any info on the car


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Golfmk3_18)*

>> he doesnt speak english though
Thats fine, Just get the specs from him and post them yourself.


----------



## VW_IS_life (Oct 1, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (Golfmk3_18)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Golfmk3_18* »_
tremblant during ski season is just insane. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif :thumbup

Mont tremblant is a great spot,, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VW_IS_life (Oct 1, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> he doesnt speak english though


Ill translate


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Cometic Gaskets...or ?*

Can any one point me to a source for large bore 12v VR6 gaskets? I spent some time today talking with Cometic and they will do a copper VR6 gasket for us in any bore size however this will require us to machine the head and block for a fire ring. That's not beyond our stg 3 project but it is beyond what 99% of you want to do for for a big bore stg 2 motor. I was thinking that there may be large bore gaskes out there for some of the turbo Vrs but I have not found any in my brief searches. Anyone??
PS - Non CR reducing gaskets of course...


----------



## Golfmk3_18 (Sep 22, 2004)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
PS - Non CR reducing gaskets of course...

lol thats the big problem right there, FI applications have some available, but mostly all lower CR..


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Golfmk3_18)*

Bill--do you have an EDM machine in your stable? If you're only talking a few mm's larger, and EDM machine would make quick work with the stock mk4 head gasket.
I don't have any EDM capabilty in my shop, but a good friend of mine has several. 
-Wayne


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Golfmk3_18)*

Small Friday update....
This week we secured a used engine near here to use as a core for the Stage 3 beast. Work will begin on that shortly.
Also we located a good crank and rods for the stg 2 street motor we bored out last month.
So things are rolling a bit more and we'll get back to head porting and posting that info now that we're more settled in into the new place.
Happy Friday:


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_Bill--do you have an EDM machine in your stable?
a good friend of mine has several. 

We dont or I wouldn't be begging for gaskets








This is a good idea though. I'd been thinking about talking to the guys who do some water jet cutting for us. I like the EDM idea better. IM me the contact info for your friend if he'll do a few sets of gaskets for us.


----------



## Golfmk3_18 (Sep 22, 2004)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Bildon Motorsport)*

I just spoke briefly with that auto mechanics teacher about the mentioned 12v. He says he doesnt think the car has a VR in it anymore....He's really unsure though . I asked him about specs and details but he doesnt really know much as he wasnt the one working on the car. He says the owner took out the VR platform because it wasnt acheiving the numbers he was looking for due to the head design...apparently that was the wall they here hitting, no matter what they tried the head just wouldnt flow what they were looking for when they compared to BMW 2.8L heads that flowed much better and gave upwards of 300hp. The only way they could see to make the desired power was to instal W/M injection and run higher compression, but the class they were competing in did not allow W/M tuning...
He mentionned that they basically tried to replicate the build of one of their BMW 325 track cars with with the 12v VR but were never able to acheive the numbers they were hoping for. I emailed the owner of the car hoping that the VR is still in the car, and asked him for some pictures/dyno charts, and will post anything he sends me for details, specs or pics.
More to come soon I hope, i finish work in 55 minutes, i'll check my home computer tonite to see if i have pics of the car


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Can any one point me to a source for large bore 12v VR6 gaskets? I spent some time today talking with Cometic and they will do a copper VR6 gasket for us in any bore size however this will require us to machine the head and block for a fire ring. That's not beyond our stg 3 project but it is beyond what 99% of you want to do for for a big bore stg 2 motor. I was thinking that there may be large bore gaskes out there for some of the turbo Vrs but I have not found any in my brief searches. Anyone??
PS - Non CR reducing gaskets of course...

Stock MK4 gasket is good to 83.5mm -- how big do you need to go to?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (maxslug)*

Customers want 85mm


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Bildon Motorsport)*

I'm surprised Cometic couldn't do the thin MLS in the big bore and only copper. 
85mm is just crazy talk.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (need_a_VR6)*

Cometic can't make an MLS VR6 gasket without having a COMPLETE engine there and a large initial purchase...plus development fees. Copper only as they just stamp them flat from industry available CAD data.


----------



## vr6mitch (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
> underdrive crank pulley
hope they kept a damper.



Mabye a dumb question, but why do you say that?

secondly, Is it possible to install, or do you have experience with an Electromotive XDI system?









any info would be great. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Progress.... (vr6mitch)*

Use google and look up crank pulley harmonic damper. There is lots of documentation why a lightweight crank pulley and/or lightweight flywheel is a bad idea if the harmonic vibration of the crank is not taken into account at the working RPM.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (phatvw)*

Yup and I specifically mentioned it because the topic suggested the crank was "knife edged" The VR counterweights don't have a lot of meat in them and will be prone to cracking if "knife edged". Shortening and radiusing would be better.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 2:17 PM 11-17-2007_


----------



## vr6mitch (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (Bildon Motorsport)*

right on,

any thoughts on the xdi......
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (vr6mitch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6mitch* »_right on,
any thoughts on the xdi......
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

There is nothing wrong with VW ignitions. Unless you are going to make your car an alcohol burning funny car with cylinder pressures that can pop the head off your ARP bolts, it's a waste of money.


----------



## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Customers want 85mm

a thread i made last year trying to find a company that makes 85mm head gaskets...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2870013


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Weak VR)*

Thanks! I'll contact Jeff @ C2.
Want to stay away from flat copper if possible. Cometic was cheap for those who do want to o-ring. Like $67.
Hopefully the EDM process can be worked out on the OE gaskets as we don't want to spend...correction...we can't spend $175 a pop for gasket as we test various engine configurations.


----------



## corozin43 (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hi all, just a quick update for those of you who read the post about the build I described on page 48:
I finally collected the car last night (Friday) after some minor delays and am now starting to bed the engine in and plan to get that done and have it mapped at Stealth Racing this side of Christmas.
No idea what the figures are right now but subjectively the engine feels pretty strong even as it is. Very torquey too. The engine sound and beat at idle is just rude and like no other VR6 I've ever heard before, due I guess to the cams, tubular header and lightened internal masses.
As promised will post an updates in future once the car is mapped and figured. As I said before the spec and parts for this particular engine were mostly ordered before I discovered this thread and so whilst it's not pushing down Bill's path 100% I hope to at least throw some figures into the discussion for information based on a genuine and complete road-car build, something of a rarity in Europe.
Cheers,
John


----------



## #1VWSUTTA (Mar 19, 2003)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (Bildon Motorsport)*

eurospec is now making a 3.4L VR6 motor that has to have some big bore headgasket of somesort....? unless its something like a 83.5MM piston diameter but stroked to increase displacement


----------



## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

Any idea when the stage 1 motor will be available? 
and...
GOOD WORK BILDON!


----------



## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: Cometic Gaskets...or ? (#1VWSUTTA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *#1VWSUTTA* »_eurospec is now making a 3.4L VR6 motor that has to have some big bore headgasket of somesort....? unless its something like a 83.5MM piston diameter but stroked to increase displacement

This is done by using the 3.2 24v VR6 motor and swapping in the crank from the new 3.6 24v VR6. Additional clearancing is done to the block as well. Unfortunately the 12v has a different deck surface design and cannot use this head gasket. For the same reason, you cannot directly bolt up a 24v head to a 12v block... A good thought though.
Edit: I stand corrected... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by idrivemyself at 8:27 AM 11-25-2007_


----------



## #1VWSUTTA (Mar 19, 2003)

i thought it was a 12v motor with 3.4l displacement... cause i know there 3.2 12v is not a R32 motor block, its just big bored


----------



## #1VWSUTTA (Mar 19, 2003)

*Re: Progress.... (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Use google and look up crank pulley harmonic damper. There is lots of documentation why a lightweight crank pulley and/or lightweight flywheel is a bad idea if the harmonic vibration of the crank is not taken into account at the working RPM.

is this the reason why now i hear like a grinding/ grating noise from my transmission bellhousing from my lightweight flywheel? when its idiling in neutral and only when the pedal is depressed that the sound goes away?


----------



## #1VWSUTTA (Mar 19, 2003)

*Re: Progress.... (#1VWSUTTA)*

Just got this in the email box from eurospec.
We cannot answer the power question because there are too many variables, but the 3.4ltr 12V VR6 uses an 84.5mm piston, 159mm connecting rods and a 100mm crank.
Thanks,
Eurospec Sport 
I stole this from the 3.4L thread


----------



## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (#1VWSUTTA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *#1VWSUTTA* »_
is this the reason why now i hear like a grinding/ grating noise from my transmission bellhousing from my lightweight flywheel? when its idiling in neutral and only when the pedal is depressed that the sound goes away?

sounds like your throw out bearing


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Progress.... (#1VWSUTTA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *#1VWSUTTA* »_
is this the reason why now i hear like a grinding/ grating noise from my transmission bellhousing from my lightweight flywheel? when its idiling in neutral and only when the pedal is depressed that the sound goes away?

 time to pull the tranz back out


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Progress.... (brian1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brian1973* »_
time to pull the tranz back out









No need to pull the trans, that sound is dampened by the OE dual mass flywheel and when you replace it with a lightened flywheel, it makes that noise. It's nothing to be worried about though from what I've heard. My car makes the exact same noise.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Progress.... (brian1973)*

If it's a VERY slight marbles in a can sound, it's completely normal with a light flywheel.


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: Progress.... (need_a_VR6)*

With a bore larger than 83.5mm are you not getting a little too close to the limits of the block? There can't be much meat left with an 85mm bore.


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: Progress.... (JETTSET)*

I have a 3.0 liter and I know you can get copper under the stock compression ratio (meaning higher compression) AND they'll make any size. might want to try giving SCEGaskets a call (www.scegaskets.com). Even if its common knowledge they said they can make one any size any thickness for me.


----------



## Stifflers Mom (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (corozin43)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corozin43* »_Hi all, ...... Cheers,John

Hi John,
I'm intrigued - who is doing your work in the Bournemouth area?
It's where I used to call home.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (Stifflers Mom)*









just a question do u guys believe in Teflon coatings for oil shedding purposes?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Progress.... (fatfreevw)*

With the different expansion rates of alu,steel & copper a *thin* copper gasket will often leak over time. Copper hardens with time and really requires an o-ring to seal properly on a street motor. SCE will probably mention this if you explain the application.
This is less of an issue with thick turbo gaskets or race gaskets that are changed regularly.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_ 
just a question do u guys believe in Teflon coatings for oil shedding purposes?


I believe they exist








I dont think the gains are as much as a TBC or DLC coating. If you look at what the ALMS, Nascar etc type engine builders are doing it's in the areas of bearing / valvetrain friction and heat barrier coatings. Crank and rod surfaces are usually left alone. However with a wet sump & resulting windage cloud I could be convinced of the advantage of a teflon (or similar) coating. This one looks awfully thick though. Is it more than .0015"? 
Crank counterweight coatings should only be used in drag racing or similar applications where the engine will only be run for a short period of time. "Teflon" and other "polymers" and will actually trap heat in the crank.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 2:01 PM 11-25-2007_


----------



## #1VWSUTTA (Mar 19, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (Bildon Motorsport)*

that teflon coating i would assume, would eventually flake off... Just like moms pots and pans... i would do ceramic coatings but why goto the extent of teflon?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (#1VWSUTTA)*


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_









can i get a XL one of these, some fries and a dr. pepper please.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (fourthchirpin)*

Shouldn't that ani be in the 24v VR forum?


----------



## momoVR6 (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_









Isn't the injector spraying a little too soon there?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Shouldn't that ani be in the 24v VR forum?










No...I don't see any rocker arms


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (PowerDubs)*

it was just a pic not really pertaining any 1 motor.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (momoVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *momoVR6* »_
Isn't the injector spraying a little too soon there?

No you want to spray with the valve closed, and JUST before it opens.


----------



## corozin43 (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (Stifflers Mom)*


_Quote »_ : Hi John,
I'm intrigued - who is doing your work in the Bournemouth area?
It's where I used to call home.

The engine has been built by Andy at Kartechnic in Poole, who are a relatively new company, but they're talented guys. I can't thank them enough for the work they did as they really went more than the extra mile with the work they did for me.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
No you want to spray with the valve closed, and JUST before it opens.

OT: Direct injection would spray just AFTER the intake valve opens, right?


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
OT: Direct injection would spray just AFTER the intake valve opens, right?


I thought it was immediately as the valve was opening to get swirled around in the chamber, Direct Injected or Port Injected. I'm probably very wrong though...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (kevwithoutacorrado)*

I'm not sure about direct injection but I *thought* it was injected with the piston traveling up to tdc. So at or near the end of valve opening. 
As far as normal injection, it's sprayed with a closed valve to keep the injector spray from washing the far side of the cyl wall out with gas.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

if direct injection for gas engines is like it is for diesels; the fuel isn't injected into the cylinder until the piston is at TDC.


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (JRaptor)*

Sorry to divert slightly however my previous comment seem to go un-noticed. You were mentioning bore diameters of 86mm. Is this even possible? If so, removing so much material from the block must have some effect on the cylinder's integrity.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (JETTSET)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JETTSET* »_Sorry to divert slightly however my previous comment seem to go un-noticed. You were mentioning bore diameters of 86mm. Is this even possible? If so, removing so much material from the block must have some effect on the cylinder's integrity.

sleeved block


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JETTSET)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JETTSET* »_You were mentioning bore diameters of 86mm. 

I dont think it's possible, but even if it were it wouldn't be smart.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

.. or sleeved








OT:
Hey I was just looking fr a very good detailed list of 02A vs 02J differences that I found here once. Now I cant find it. Does anyone have a link?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

There are 02A and 3 different 02J
What do you want to know?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I want the link. Any one? It was a very detailed list of part #s and ALL the small design changes made.


----------



## JRaptor (Dec 13, 2006)

heh, i just had an 02J and 02A apart next to each other, i should've written down the differences....


----------



## Anson86-8v (Feb 17, 2003)

Probably not a complete list but this post does mention a few differences. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2561119


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: (Anson86-8v)*

like this? http://www.techtonicstuning.com/trannyratios.asp


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Zoso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zoso* »_like this? http://www.techtonicstuning.com/trannyratios.asp

No more like 
02A , diff axle difference 20 vs 22mm , 
Early 02J got same syncros like the 02A
Later o2J syncros are different
And in 2005 many other things internally for the shift fork is different


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No more like 
02A , diff axle difference 20 vs 22mm , 
Early 02J got same syncros like the 02A
Later o2J syncros are different
And in 2005 many other things internally for the shift fork is different



http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3383467


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VWChimera)*

2004.5+ MkV 02J has a 113mm ring gear according to Gary Peloquin.
I don't think any USA MkIV 02J's have this ring gear. Maybe the MkIV "city golf" in Canada has it.


_Modified by phatvw at 2:35 PM 11-30-2007_


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Aero calculator*

Roughly on topic here, slight thread jack...
I made a top speed calculator based on the Coefficient of Drag, Weight, and Frontal area of the car. I also imported a database of car stats that has this for a lot of cars. 
Using this on a Corrado that's 2800 lbs my calc come up with this:
















Or in otherwords, if Bill makes his 275WHP goal he will be able to go over 180mph w/ a N/A VR6. 
I invite everyone to try out my new toy at http://warped.org/vw/calc.html. All feedback is welcome Here. Don't post anything in this thread related to ^^ that.
-m


----------



## #1VWSUTTA (Mar 19, 2003)

*Re: Aero calculator (maxslug)*

Did anyone figure out the Headgasket issue? 85mm bore?


----------



## Morrado (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Quote, originally posted by JETTSET » 
You were mentioning bore diameters of 86mm. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
I dont think it's possible, but even if it were it wouldn't be smart.

True, not smart, that is going too far on a AAA block... doubtful of it's feasibility, the siamesed pistons would have to have very small skirts, if at all, as they would make contact. The block/sleeve would have to be arched pretty steep. There was a reason the 12V head gaskets and the R32 bore was made to only 84mm...
@ 85mm on my block, I had trouble getting the notorious "boltless" corner of the block to seal properly... the only PITA, I had GasketWorks.com make the gasket and o-rings... finally went with Lubbock Gasket (Lubbock, TX) make a graphite composite w/fire rings which worked great... before a ARP stud failure... no damage but now using Raceware... awaiting reassembly or sale for a more efficient, S14B23 M3 head/motor/car!










_Modified by Morrado at 7:29 PM 12-4-2007_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I talked to 034 about it.

Sorry for the off topic but when?

_Quote, originally posted by *Golfmk3_18* »_but i may be able to get you some info on a 260whp all motor 12v vr6 thats from around here. What i know so far is the following:
-Dry sump oil pan + dry sump oil pump + oil squirters to all cylinders
-Custom ITB set-up

Is the dry sump pan casted or cut from a solid chunk of T6061?Is this in Quebec?I would not mind making the trip just for information gathering purposes.


----------



## vdubxcrew (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*

Hey Bildon, just checking to see where you're at with getting the heads to flow better. Any breakthroughs? With all this time put into the project, what is the highest gains you can give us with your ported/worked head with matching cams? Just curious. It all really revolves around the head, all the other stuff is great, and the VR6 community surely thanks you but I know alot of people are wondering what's going on with the head porting/tuning.


----------



## mk3_vdub (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (vdubxcrew)*

Bump this thread back to the first page... sent pm...


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (mk3_vdub)*

I'm curious about the asymmetrical Mk4 cams. Any updates on the progress with the cams?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Golfmk3_18* »_
but i may be able to get you some info on a 260whp all motor 12v vr6 thats from around here. What i know so far is the following:
-Dry sump oil pan + dry sump oil pump + *oil squirters to all cylinders*
-Custom ITB set-up

Ummmmm, that's interesting. So someone is making an aftermarket oil squirter that's better than the STOCK oil squirters?








...I'm sure there is, being with all the aftermarket support the VR6 has...right up there with a 260whp 12v VR6 that no one knows about.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

>> ...I'm sure there is, being with all the aftermarket support the VR6 has
Well at least the best one piece racing valve manufacturers make VR parts


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> ...I'm sure there is, being with all the aftermarket support the VR6 has
Well at least the best one piece racing valve manufacturers make VR parts









...who would that be?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

Furry-ahhh http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

http://www.ferrea.com/catalog/2007/pages66-81.pdf
VW VR6 2.8L - DOHC 12 VALVE (AFP) - 1998-2002
Part Nº Head Stem Overall Tip Type Diam. Diam. Length Length References
F1932P E 34 mm 6.96 mm 106.90 mm 2.25 mm 22º Flo. Stock Size
F1920P E 35 mm 6.96 mm 106.90 mm 2.25 mm 22º Flo. + 1 mm oversize
F1921P E 35 mm 6.96 mm 106.90 mm 2.25 mm 22º S. Flo. + 1 mm o/size. S. Alloy. Turbo Appl.
F2135P E 36 mm 6.96 mm 106.90 mm 2.25 mm 22º S. Flo. + 2 mm o/size. S. Alloy. Turbo Appl.
F1931P I 39 mm 6.98 mm 106.15 mm 2.25 mm 20º S. Flo. Stock Size
F1919P I 40 mm 6.98 mm 106.15 mm 2.25 mm 20º S. Flo. + 1 mm oversize
F2136P I 41 mm 6.98 mm 106.15 mm 2.25 mm 20º S. Flo. + 2 mm oversize

VW VR6 2.8L - DOHC 24 VALVE (BDF) - 2002-2004 (*)
Part Nº Head Stem Overall Tip Type Diam. Diam. Length Length References
F1988P E 27.00mm 5.94mm 136.48mm 4.6mm 25° Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - Stock size
F1989P E 27.00mm 5.94mm 102.58mm 4.6mm 25° Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - Stock size
F1990P E 28.00mm 5.94mm 136.48mm 4.6mm 25° Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 1mm oversize
F1991P E 28.00mm 5.94mm 102.58mm 4.6mm 25° Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 1mm oversize
F2137P E 29.00mm 5.94mm 136.48mm 4.6mm 25° Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 2mm oversize
F2138P E 29.00mm 5.94mm 102.58mm 4.6mm 25° Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 2mm oversize
F1984P I 31.00mm 5.95mm 136.30mm 4.6mm 25° S. Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - Stock size
F1985P I 31.00mm 5.95mm 102.40mm 4.6mm 25° S. Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - Stock size
F1986P I 32.00mm 5.95mm 136.30mm 4.6mm 25° S. Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 1mm o/size
F1987P I 32.00mm 5.95mm 102.40mm 4.6mm 25° S. Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 1mm o/size
F2139P I 33.00mm 5.95mm 136.30mm 4.6mm 25° S. Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 2mm o/size
F2140P I 33.00mm 5.95mm 102.40mm 4.6mm 25° S. Flo. Triple Gro. Special Alloy. - 2mm o/size

Notice how there are twice as many 24v valve lengths - remember there are 4 different valve designs for 24v: intake+exhaust for front cylinder bank, intake+exhaust for rear cylinder bank. Those 24v engines really are a marvel of engineering.


_Modified by phatvw at 8:32 PM 12-11-2007_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Notice how there are twice as many 24v valve lengths - remember there are 4 different valve designs for 24v: intake+exhaust for front cylinder bank, intake+exhaust for rear cylinder bank. Those 24v engines really are a marvel of engineering.

Tell me about it....makes it easier to make a mistake on my end!!
BTW, can anyone confirm or deny that the R32 has larger head diameter valves?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (KingVR)*

as much as I love talking about 24vs. lets keep the 24v outta here lol.
all r32 cylinder head talk should go here : 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3545905


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (fourthchirpin)*

Looking for info....
Trying to find out if anyone makes a cylinder pressure transducer which is incorporated into a 14mm spark plug. I have found 10mm and 12mm from Bosch and Kistler..but no 14mm







Anyone know of any?


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Looking for info....
Trying to find out if anyone makes a cylinder pressure transducer which is incorporated into a 14mm spark plug. I have found 10mm and 12mm from Bosch and Kistler..but no 14mm







Anyone know of any?









Google tells me that AVL has one, model number "ZF43" ... but the link to the datasheet on their site is broken. 
I would try them :

_Quote, originally posted by *http://www.avl.com/wo/webobsession.servlet.go?app=bcms&page=view&nodeid=400013338* »_
AVL North America, Inc 
47519 Halyard Drive
Plymouth, Michigan 48170-2438
USA
+1 734 414 9600
+1 800 222 5283 (Toll-free number, US only)
+1 734 414 9691 (Sales, fax)
[email protected]
http://www.avl.com/nai

AVL Powertrain Engineering, Inc 
47519 Halyard Drive
Plymouth, Michigan 48170-2438
USA
+1 734 414 9618
+1 877 285 4278 (Toll-free number, US only)
+1 734 414 9690 (fax)
[email protected]
http://www.avl.com/pei


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (maxslug)*

I missed that one when I searched AVL earlier... thanks!
Found a PDF though.
http://www.avl.com/wo/webobses....html
These spark plugs are like $1000 each though


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Trying to find out if anyone makes a cylinder pressure transducer which is incorporated into a 14mm spark plug. I have found 10mm and 12mm from Bosch and Kistler..but no 14mm.

What do those cost Bill? When I was at Bosch a few years back for training we went over to the dyno lab where they were running one of those pressure transducers in a car. When I enquired about the cost of one, the $ figure the tech gave me was substantial. Just wondering if they've come down that much over the last few years.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
These spark plugs are like $1000 each though









But don't they add like 100 HP?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (James 93SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *James 93SLC* »_
But don't they add like 100 HP?









I think you are thinking of Splitfires...








http://www.miata.net/garage/splitftc.html


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I missed that one when I searched AVL earlier... thanks!
Found a PDF though.
http://www.avl.com/wo/webobses....html
These spark plugs are like $1000 each though









Local company paid 19 000$ for their equipment so if you get those for 1000$ they are basicly for free.


----------



## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

How much cost a Stage 2 head set up?
And how much with bigger valves? I'm serius
And Bill how much you think can be the diference between BV or stock


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (hardcore racer)*

Tell me something good! 
I'm currently installing a CCH "race port" big valve head, reported by Joe at the Raceshop and machined to fit Supertec 42mm intake and 36mm exhaust valves, with a continuous radius valve job. It's going on the MK4. I'm anxious to see how it does with the Mk4 style intake manifold. Now I just need better camshaft than the 256! That's where you guys come in, any new news?
Couple questions: 
1. Do you guys do custom ECU dyno tuning? My A/F ratio is terrible right now, as is my spark advance after 6000 rpm.
2. What is the break-in period for a cylinder head? 
Picture for fun: 











_Modified by VRdublove at 12:16 AM 12-19-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

What was wrong with the CCH port job? I though this long gone company did good heads?
>> 36mm exhaust valves, with a continuous radius valve job. 
uhhh. How wide is the exhaust seat? ... the seat that allows the valve to cool... prolonging the seal between valve and head.
Tell me what your head flows and how you will use the car and we'll recommend a cam.
>> 1. Do you guys do custom ECU dyno tuning? My A/F ratio is terrible right now, as is my spark advance after 6000 rpm.
Yes, what is your timing above 6000?
2. What is the break-in period for a cylinder head? 
There is none if it's done right!








Seriously "BREAK IN" is what you do with an engine that is not built perfectly. The out of tolerance bits have to hammer and wear themselves into spec. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
There is no "break-in" for our race engines. However for the street where you are looking for max engine life, I'd keep the revs under 4500 for the first few hours and then under 6000 for the next few.. after that, change the oil & FILTER, hopefully nothing is found in it and then you should be good to go.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:15 PM 12-18-2007_


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What was wrong with the CCH port job? I though this long gone company did good heads?
>> 36mm exhaust valves, with a continuous radius valve job. 
uhhh. How wide is the exhaust seat? ... the seat that allows the valve to cool... prolonging the seal between valve and head.

Joe wanted to rework a couple areas of the head that he could improve on I suppose. The head was originally built for mk2vrooom. He decided not to finish it and sold it to me instead. 
I don't know how wide the exhaust seat is, and I don't think "continuous radius" is the correct terminology for the valve job, that is just how I interpreted Joe's description. He said that his local machine shop has a CNC valve seat machine that can do more than a typical 3 or 5 angle valve job, he said they use it for their race bikes. I believe it is very similar to this: http://www.stockcarracing.com/....html


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Tell me what your head flows and how you will use the car and we'll recommend a cam.
>> 1. Do you guys do custom ECU dyno tuning? My A/F ratio is terrible right now, as is my spark advance after 6000 rpm.
Yes, what is your timing above 6000?


The head hasn't been flow bench tested that I am aware of, but I guess we could get a rough idea by comparing the A/F ratio to that of the dyno on the stock head. Here is my dyno with the stock head:
















*Note*: Colors are different on lower graph, blue is stock cam, red is foffa's, green is DSR 256.

Have you guys found a way to raise the changeover point on the MK4 manifold? Mine is now too low.

Thanks for the "break-in" tips.











_Modified by VRdublove at 1:00 AM 12-19-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

OK I see what you mean from that article. Yah they are adding a radiused section below the valve seat to aid flow out of the port. Note that the seat and the top cut are still straight cuts. The seat can no have a radius so it seals properly and the top cut should no have a radius to prevent reversion. (you don't want to make it easy for air to flow back up the port near the end of the intake cycle) 
>> Have you guys found a way to raise the changeover point on the MK4 manifold? 
Haven't tried. No need for that on a race motor. Talk to Jeff @ C2. He probably has a solution.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

That description helps me make sense of it now. I misinterpreted and was having trouble understanding how the valve would seal well on a curved seat. Jeff @ C2 has been tough for me to get ahold of lately. After I get a proper cam for the motor I think I will drive up to their shop to have it tuned.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Did anyone else get a christmas card from SuperTech?








I'll have to send Willy a thank you note!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Have you guys found a way to raise the changeover point on the MK4 manifold? 
Talk to Jeff @ C2. He probably has a solution.


It can be coded in the ecu, or you can use a simple RPM switch from Summit-


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What was wrong with the CCH port job? I though this long gone company did good heads?]

Orrell did great work, I have used those heads in the past. The CCH work was minimal on the porting side of things, blended seat into the bowl with the casting cleaned up basically. Very good work, and good gains for what it was for a long time. Joe has re-worked a few now that receive porting similar to my old Race Shop head and the current head on Paul's (need_a_vr6) engine.
Good luck with everything, still lurking this topic from time to time, waiting to see where everything goes.










_Modified by billyVR6 at 7:18 AM 12-19-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Orrell did great work, I have used those heads in the past. The CCH work was minimal on the porting side of things, blended seat into the bowl with the casting cleaned up basically. Very good work, and good gains for what it was for a long time. Joe has re-worked a few now that receive porting similar to my old Race Shop head and the current head on Paul's (need_a_vr6) engine.
Good luck with everything, still lurking this topic from time to time, waiting to see where everything goes.









_Modified by billyVR6 at 7:18 AM 12-19-2007_


Have you tried this head on a turbo car or a endurance N/A car ?
That sharp tiny ridge between the valves is why im still a bit scared of going BVH.








Pistons melt when they got square or sharp corners so why would that ridge not do that









But i really want the BVH to work for me to


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Have you tried this head on a turbo car or a endurance N/A car ? 

There are those out there that use Joe's work, you would have to contact him to find out the application.
I have no idea what a VR6 is anymore, so asking me is pretty much going to go nowhere.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

When Joe re-did my CCH head we saw 9-10whp peak (depends how you measure peak hp rpm went from 5800 to 6k) and about 12whp at 7k with no other changes. That's a LOT of power considering the head was already ported with larger valves. 
Joe did a head for a car I built a few winters ago with my old block. The car maxes out 42lb injectors at 16psi (instead of the normal 20ish) at 12.5:1 A/F with stock cams and with a 60-1/.58. They move some air.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

190? 200 CFM ??? less??
Don't tell me that he doesn't flow his heads


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

*I* don't have that information. I don't even care about dyno numbers unless they make it quicker as well


----------



## EVIL6 (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

This thread is going all over the place. Hard to keep up.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (EVIL6)*

In about a week or two we'll have the project web page up which should clear everything up again... http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bildon I just think of you in your laboratory like some mad scientist with that traditional thick South Eastern European accent working over the VR6 engine like it was Frankenstein. He He He. Oh mad scientist what are you going to do next to your hybrid super 12v mutant engine? What kind of roars are we going to hear on Youtube when your VR6 project is finally finished? Are we going to shake our heads and look down with a heavy sigh while a few tears spill from our eyes in the name of the poor 12v victim. Or are we going to perk up our ears and our eyes are going to dialate even wider than when drinking a Redline Extreme(high powered energy drink)and smile from ear to ear with the amazing results that you were able to get from the famous work horse known as the VR6? Oh pray to the gods that the latter is the result of your mad chicanery. 
Merry Christmas that's my Hunter S. Thompson post in this thread. Santa you drunk and coked up merry baastard bring something good to the VR6 community.







http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6DPLMT.* »_
Santa you drunk and coked up merry baastard bring something good to the VR6 community.

That line right there got me. Sounds to me like someone got into Grandma's eggnog a little early!


----------



## apex (Mar 30, 2000)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

>> that's my Hunter S. Thompson post in this thread. 
Well done. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (apex)*

You're welcome. It's hard not to go off on a tangent when some of my main freak influences are Hunter S Thompson,Bill Hicks, and Henry Rollins. Imagine what it's like after I take a few Redline Extremes or partake in my Irish friend Guiness? Dear lord people sit back and pear at me like some lunatic trying to put himself back into the straight jacket while on stage doing a kareokee of Road House Blues by The Doors.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_








*Note*: Colors are different on lower graph, blue is stock cam, red is foffa's, green is DSR 256.



A wee bit off topic.... but I thought these 'asymmetric' cams were the big ticket for MKIV VR6's..... seems like these ones are pretty much dead even with the DSR's. Or is there more to the story than meets the eye?


----------



## BIGNICKSGTIS420 (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
A wee bit off topic.... but I thought these 'asymmetric' cams were the big ticket for MKIV VR6's..... seems like these ones are pretty much dead even with the DSR's. Or is there more to the story than meets the eye?
From what i understand they were made based of a VR5, and made good results. But after all the hard work was done it was determined that the VR5 has a different intake manifold (longer runners?) than the VR6. So all #s didnt work out as expected. Im probably wrong though


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (BIGNICKSGTIS420)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BIGNICKSGTIS420* »_From what i understand they were made based of a VR5, and made good results. But after all the hard work was done it was determined that the VR5 has a different intake manifold (longer runners?) than the VR6. So all #s didnt work out as expected. Im probably wrong though









Correct, except the euro vr5 has _shorter_ runners than the vr6. I would love to try one that is correctly tuned for the longer runners of the vr6, but foffa said he just doesn't have the time or money. I believe he does have the formulas for it though.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_
Correct, except the euro vr5 has _shorter_ runners than the vr6. I would love to try one that is correctly tuned for the longer runners of the vr6, but foffa said he just doesn't have the time or money. I believe he does have the formulas for it though. 

The Foffa/DRC stage 2 cam ought to work well with a short runner intake like NubVR's design here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3371914
I plan to run this combo in the future.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

We're developing a SRI for those who dont want the expense / complexity of an ITB setup. The SRI will be good for the Stg 2 while the SRI are required for the stg 3. ...
Also close to having a very light 5.5mm stem valve train to help flow and help spin the old girl past 8000 RPM.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Also close to having a very light 5.5mm stem.... 

Is that a 6mm stem necked down to 5.5mm exposed in the bowl?
Bill or KingVR; Any concern with a large diameter/heavier valve head getting distorted/tuliped out?
Also, KingVR.. I was digging through some archived pictures of mine on CD and I found your homemade header from years ago.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

>> Any concern with a large diameter/heavier valve head getting distorted/tuliped out?
Not as much concern as I'd have for a cheap valve to break off! 
If we were building a 100,000mi street car motor we would do a standard 7mm stem for cost and longevity. But for those of you hungry for power ... 
Anything smaller than 7mm is a custom valve anway so they can be made to each customer's needs. Depending on the use of the engine we'd go with a std valve stem necked down or a full race thin stem..it all depend$.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:26 AM 12-21-2007_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> Any concern with a large diameter/heavier valve head getting distorted/tuliped out?
Not as much concern as I'd have for a cheap valve to break off! 
If we were building a 100,000mi street car motor we would do a standard 7mm stem for cost and longevity. But for those of you hungry for power ... 
Anything smaller than 7mm is a custom valve anyway so they can be made to each customer's needs. Depending on the use of the engine we'd go with a std valve stem necked down or a full race thin stem..it all depend$.

I just went through this concern with a friend of mine with a Mercedes 190E engine that comes stock with 8mm on the intake and 9mm stems on the exhaust. We are making him a set of 6mm stems in place of those, and sure enough someone on the Benz forums that he mentioned that on started spouting off that it would break off for sure.
His head diameter is 37mm on the 6mm stem in a bucket-style lifter engine...the Honda S2000 engine uses a 5.5mm stem with a 36mm head STOCK in a ROCKER ARM style arrangement. The reason his head came with such excessively large stem diameters is because the technology was different back then than it is now. Something produced for the public that is released in 1985 was most likely engineered, developed, and tested years prior to that. Metallurgy and heat treatment processes are far more advanced today than they were 20+ years ago.
There would be no concern whatsoever with using a smaller stem. Basically the rule of thumb is this: _If we don't make a finished or blank valve with the head diameter large enough for what someone wants...there's a reason for it_
In other words, if we do make blank with a 42mm head diameter on a 5.5mm stem, then it is because we feel that it is sufficient enough to handle it's expected worst-case-scenario.
I just found out that we sold the last remaining blanks of the 42mm on 5.5mm stems!! BTW, the stem reduction goes down to 5.08mm, which may or may not sound too drastic, but keep in mind that the stem reduction is actually forged into the shape of the design during production as opposed to it simply being material that gets cut away. This insures that there are no interruptions in the grain flow structure, which creates the ability to retain maximum strength and support.
Something else to keep in mind, is that our stress testing machine that literally pulls objects (such as valves) apart, requires 165,000+ psi of pulling force to surpass the tensile strength of the average valve.










_Modified by KingVR at 10:52 AM 12-21-2007_


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

^^good stuff http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I was just curious more than anything on that subject...


----------



## S6Plus (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

For foreigners like me (had to look it up)








SRI = Short Ram Intake
As the year is coming to an end, I do have to send a massive "Thank you" to all folks involved in this project, first and foremost Bildon, for sharing your knowledge, expertise and expirience with the community. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
This thread is also well appreciated among German VR6 afficianados!








Frohe Weihnachten from the VW-Motherland!


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (S6Plus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *S6Plus* »_SRI = Short *Runner* Intake


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport) (momoVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *momoVR6* »_
Isn't the injector spraying a little too soon there?

I don't know if anyone mentioned, but in an EFI vehicle, most of the time the injector sprays right before the valve opens to allow for better atomization of the fuel on the hot tulip of the intake valve.


----------



## bottlesandcans01 (Oct 31, 2007)

Add a hamster wheel. extra .000002 HP.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Foffa, This Euro lower mani is very interesting. Shorter, smaller ID, larger radius, runners. Too bad it won't mate up to a US plastic upper.
Can you take a photo of the side of the Euro plastic upper manifold so I can see the bend in the runners? 
















Looking forward to when I will be able to compare all 3. 
Euro, US & mk3.


Bildon, 
Have you guys gotten a Mkiv plastic lower that you can compare side by side with these two?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Here is MK4 US vs EURO version runner lenght !!!!!
Thanks to powerdubs!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
long runner its 3 inch difference.
Short runner mode its 4,7inch difference!!!!!!!!!








Thats why VR5 rev to 8k
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...03164









_Modified by [email protected] at 5:40 AM 12-28-2007_

_Modified by [email protected] at 5:41 AM 12-28-2007_


_Modified by [email protected] at 5:42 AM 12-28-2007_


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_

Bildon, 
Have you guys gotten a Mkiv plastic lower that you can compare side by side with these two?

Yes they have. I sent them one last month.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (JETTSET)*

Short runner is twice as long... but distance to plenum is the important #.
That's the distance where you get the wave reflection from. This distance is shown on pg 7 of SSP 212 in Foffa's post above although it is not really a simple linear distance as shown. The radii of the curves in the port are not symmetrical so they must be measured independently and averaged.
Here's a pic of the lowers for whomever asked for it...








PS - Typing up the VR6 project report for stg 1 & 2 this week... http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Short runner is twice as long... but distance to plenum is the important #.
That's the distance where you get the wave reflection from. This distance is shown on pg 7 of SSP 212 in Foffa's post above although it is not really a simple linear distance as shown. The radii of the curves in the port are not symmetrical so they must be measured independently and averaged.
Here's a pic of the lowers for whomever asked for it...








PS - Typing up the VR6 project report for stg 1 & 2 this week... http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 


Hi
Al measurements from valve to front and back plenums is on page 8
front plenum to valve is 13inch on Euro and 17.7inch on US spec
But design on US spec is horrible








Why som many bends and kinks










_Modified by [email protected] at 7:40 AM 12-28-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
But design on US spec is horrible








Why so many bends and kinks










Alternator and A/C mounting?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Alternator and A/C mounting?


Same altenator and AC on euro spec version.
So strange .
Any funky emission thingy running close to the intake on US spec ?


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Same altenator and AC on euro spec version.
So strange .
Any funky emission thingy running close to the intake on US spec ?

Secondary Air Pump, mounted just under Intake manifold... maybe?
Perhaps the US design difference is not for packaging, but rather, better matches the 'typical' US market driver.
I find this VERY intersting since you (Foffa) have some folks sold
on your high rpm Mk4 12v Cams... turns out they may need the euro lower to make them effective, or just use a Euro Lower
with stock cams....







mmmmm








-Jeffrey Atwood


_Modified by Jefnes3 at 3:21 PM 12-28-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
I find this VERY intersting since you (Foffa) have some folks sold
on your high rpm Mk4 12v Cams... turns out they may need the euro lower to make them effective.







mmmmm








-Jeffrey Atwood

Wouldn't a regular ~262° MkIII cam also benefit from shorter runners? The only difference with Foffa's cam is that it has the same front vs rear bank compensation as the OEM MkIV cam. Other than that its just like a regular ~262° cam which would be optimized for the same general runner length as a MkIII 262.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Secondary Air Pump, mounted just under Intake manifold... maybe?
Perhaps the US design difference is not for packaging, but rather, better matches the 'typical' US market driver.
I find this VERY intersting since you (Foffa) have some folks sold
on your high rpm Mk4 12v Cams... turns out they may need the euro lower to make them effective, or just use a Euro Lower
with stock cams....







mmmmm








-Jeffrey Atwood

_Modified by Jefnes3 at 3:21 PM 12-28-2007_

Secondary air pump is mounted in wheel house on Euro MK4. 
So it might be it.
Btw euro intake is not available for 6 cyl








Cams and intake works great on "correct lenght" runners for 8000rpm.








*I have still not seen any higher Litre vs WHP VR 2valve engine.
Anyone over 240WHP/litre ?*

And im still on oem Motronic







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by [email protected] at 12:29 PM 12-28-2007_


_Modified by [email protected] at 12:30 PM 12-28-2007_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
*I have still not seen any higher Litre vs WHP VR 2valve engine.
Anyone over 240WHP/litre ?*

Not Naturally Aspirated of course, so I imagine you're speaking of any 2-valve VR engine with a turbo...or any power adder? There's a handful here in the states. USP's 95' Jetta and a few others in the Jersey area make over 800whp, which would be be *beyond 270WHP per liter*
...sorry for the interruption!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Not Naturally Aspirated of course, so I imagine you're speaking of any 2-valve VR engine with a turbo...or any power adder? There's a handful here in the states. USP's 95' Jetta and a few others in the Jersey area make over 800whp, which would be be *beyond 270WHP per liter*
...sorry for the interruption!









Never seen any dynos of them.
Highest ive seen thats trustable dyno vs track record (mph vs weight) is around 780HP engine dyno ~ 700Whp 3litre engine.
There are one to many 2300-2500lb cars that claim 700-800Hp and the still trap 130-135mph.









The fastest MK3 drag vr´s are not the one claming the highest HP








There are a bunch of 650Hp 3litre that trap 150Mph http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by [email protected] at 1:47 PM 12-28-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

OFF TOPIC!
No turbo talk here please...


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Never seen any dynos of them.
Highest ive seen thats trustable dyno vs track record (mph vs weight) is around 780HP engine dyno ~ 700Whp 3litre engine.
There are one to many 2300-2500lb cars that claim 700-800Hp and the still trap 130-135mph.









The fastest MK3 drag vr´s are not the one claming the highest HP








There are a bunch of 650Hp 3litre that trap 150Mph http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Modified by [email protected] at 1:47 PM 12-28-2007_

Don't want to take this thread too far off topic but Billy hit 718whp on his 12v 2.9 liter VR6 so that equals 247 whp per liter. I believe the last I heard he was trapping around 146 but he could be going faster now.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_OFF TOPIC!
No turbo talk here please...









Its due to "to little N/A" tuning pics from you


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Foffa, can you read/translate that polish hack version of SSP 212? 
I am still trying to find the original Russian version of it but have had no luck so far...


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

*
/ \
|
|
|
|
|
HE STARTED IT!!*








_Just talked to Chris to confirm. His dyno 3 years ago was 700whp, running a best of 9.70 and 150mph. Brian in Jersey did 835whp_

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_OFF TOPIC!
No turbo talk here please...


----------



## brian1973 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Not Naturally Aspirated of course, so I imagine you're speaking of any 2-valve VR engine with a turbo...or any power adder? There's a handful here in the states. USP's 95' Jetta and a few others in the Jersey area make over 800whp, which would be be *beyond 270WHP per liter*
...sorry for the interruption!









does usp have the 800hp car on the web or in a post? ide like to check it out, or what is his username here so i can do a search. thanks


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (brian1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brian1973* »_
does usp have the 800hp car on the web or in a post? ide like to check it out, or what is his username here so i can do a search. thanks









http://uspmotorsports.com/chris.php


----------



## sinisterh22a (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
*I have still not seen any higher Litre vs WHP VR 2valve engine.
Anyone over 240WHP/litre ?*


billy t-2.9l 730+ whp
chris green 3.0l 720+whp
brian kirchen what ever 3.0l 836 whp
his friend steve 3.0l 815+whp
mike at c&m 3.0l 800+ whp
all these cars make more per liter, all trap anywhere from 145s to 163!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (sinisterh22a)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sinisterh22a* »_
billy t-2.9l 730+ whp
chris green 3.0l 720+whp
brian kirchen what ever 3.0l 836 whp
his friend steve 3.0l 815+whp
mike at c&m 3.0l 800+ whp
all these cars make more per liter, all trap anywhere from 145s to 163!



And still 580WHP trap 150mph









Bildon , Time for some of those pictures you promised us .
Any thought of OEM valve size but with those super tech small valve steam valves ?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Pictures? No, I said that I would be publishing our initial project work.
You guys are going to have to read. and ... gasp... DO MATH!








Still writing up stg 1 & 2 stuff now...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

And still 580WHP trap 150mph









Trap doesn't mean anything without ET. Quit spinning tire and watch that drop a bit.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Any thought of OEM valve size but with those super tech small valve steam valves ?

Where did ST and small stem combo come into discussion?










_Modified by KingVR at 1:10 AM 12-31-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Where did ST and small stem combo come into discussion?









_Modified by KingVR at 1:10 AM 12-31-2007_


Due to the fact that a turbo car that is daily driven OR endurance N/A track car will propably get hot spot problems with plus size valves.
But with small steam valves and OEM size it might be possible to get best of both worlds.
And with bildon making sveveral stages this might be good fail safe option for cars wit high EGT


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Trap doesn't mean anything without ET. Quit spinning tire and watch that drop a bit.

[email protected] so its basicly just the 60ft thats slower on that car


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Due to the fact that a turbo car that is daily driven OR endurance N/A track car will propably get hot spot problems with plus size valves.
But with small steam valves and OEM size it might be possible to get best of both worlds.
And with bildon making sveveral stages this might be good fail safe option for cars wit high EGT 

How/why would you get hot spots when using _larger than OEM size_ valves? And how would the smaller stem help beyond the standpoint of _weight reduction_?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
How/why would you get hot spots when using _larger than OEM size_ valves? 


thats what iam thinking..... larger valves = dissipates heat quicker.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_And how would the smaller stem help beyond the standpoint of _weight reduction_?

You should bestow everyone with your knowledge and experience with under cut valve stems not being an increase for flow. Then, take this a step further and apply the same concept to a tapered valve guide vs a non-tapered guide in regards to flow. That would be some good reading.
BTW, what do you do at Ferrea, sales, R&D, machine work?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

ok everybody. Put your pee pees back in your pants


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
How/why would you get hot spots when using _larger than OEM size_ valves? And how would the smaller stem help beyond the standpoint of _weight reduction_?

Most common place for VR head to crack is inbetween the valves.
Remove material and its basicly unusable for some applications.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ok everybody. Put your pee pees back in your pants
















What seems to be the problem? I think he's asking me to re-write some info that I wrote to him in a PM a short while ago, that is all.
The only thing that I can imagine could be cause for _hot spots_ may be that there is less room for valve seat material, which is less material to transfer heat away from the valve...sort of. IMHO, the less seat material (usually steel or iron, which is a poor thermal conductor) you have, the more rapidly it's able to bypass that heat into the aluminum casting of the cylinder head, and into the coolant system.
Just a thought.
BTW, I'm in the sales/technical department at Ferrea Racing Components.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Most common place for VR head to crack is inbetween the valves.
Remove material and its basicly unusable for some applications.


That was my next guess.








That depends upon HOW MUCH you are up-sizing the valves.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Edit, double post, sorry...


_Modified by billyVR6 at 12:51 PM 12-31-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_BTW, I'm in the sales/technical department at Ferrea Racing Components.









Yep, that was just pure interest. I honestly never read and or missed what position you held there, nothing more there to read into. So, this discussion of valves/flow is still on par with this topic and project... if not, then just shoot me.
Here is some VR6 related material, KingVR's old home-made header....








I posted a few pages back that I found an old pic and my IM's blew up with people asking about it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Billy, it "looked" like you were picking a fight with him... my bad.








Hey Scott, what tubing dia. and lengths did you use on that? Results?
I see it's not equal length. 
Check his out for some outside the box thinking...
http://exhaust.fastmail.fm/for...d.jpg
http://speedtalk.com/forum/vie...ifold


----------



## LHP (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (KingVR)*

If your going to introduce that much heat,
then it's time to go to bronze or copper alloy seats that will transfer heat as well or better than the aluminum head.
But you had better make sure you run a good airfilter as small particulate will erode these seats faster, 
not as hard as steel alloys.
Over time they will tend to pound in.
As for smaller stem valves,
the smaller you get the lighter.
The VR6 also has quite deep valve bowls and with smaller stem valves you will find it harder to get the seat to machine as nice as a larger stem would.
The valve guide is farther away from the seat.
larger valve pilots are stiffer and will make for a more stable valve seat machining operation, 
As compared to say 5m/m or 5.5m/m stems
When you drop down to small stem valves,
you will also have to find retainers, keepers, valve guides, 
valve seals to fit your new application.
For all this work and cost, not big gains, power wise.
Better off reworking the ports for airflow,
as the 7m/m valve train the VR has now,
other than the hydraulic cam followers (that are not reliable) for high rpm.
The cam follower (diameter) size is common to most VW's,
and there are cam profiles out there that the VR crowd has not even got close to yet.
To make up for poor cylinderhead airflow,
you will probably have to over cam the hell out of this engine.
But the head still needs the most work, port wise.
LHP
http://www.haywardperformance.com 



_Modified by LHP at 10:07 PM 12-31-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Nope, he is the man on the inside. Joe at The Race Shop was talking with them back in 2003/2004 about 5mm stems from a blank that they had, but got nowhere. So, I inquired about getting 5mm stem valves through Scott...
Through IM, I made reference to some under-cut valve stems and Scott questioned this, then proceeded to tell me a few things that were definetly news to me. I am sure there was some testing the water as to my knowledge, but as I mentioned to him, I do graphic design for a living and do not work for a major performance valve company. That pretty much ended it right there.








At stated, this is news to me for sure!!!!!
I would *definetly* like to see sourced data and information to back any or all of it up. 



_Modified by billyVR6 at 1:27 PM 12-31-2007_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (LHP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LHP* »_
and there are cam profiles out there that the VR crowd has not even got close to yet.


Lance,
"Close to" ? 300° ? 320° ? Or are you referring to the bull nose stuff? We've looked at those as well...but with no rules restricting lift, our designs are more conventional.
Here are a few of our higher dur cams...
VR hydro
288°/12.00mm/[email protected]°
296°/12.50mm/[email protected]°
VR solid
305° / 13.00mm/4.40 @106°
317° / 13.50mm/4.95 @104°
Not quite as much as our 16v full race cams...
318°/285°/12.95mm/[email protected]° - peak power approx. at 9500rpm
but since these VR race cams are just experimental at this point until our stg 3 engine is done ...it's really all up to debate.
FYI, due to the inertia of the large valves on the 12v you should be careful when using hydraulic lifters for higher rpm, high lift cams. Our analysis shows it can get critical over 7000rpm depending on your valve, guide, seal configuration... Our hydro race cams take this into account somewhat by lowering the ramp acceleration values slightly, and also reducing the speed at which the valve hits the seat when closing. These cams are unlike anything else the "VW crowd" offers.
Another critical factor with profiles such as this will be the lift at TDC, certainly with raised CR. You and your engine builder will need to determine what the margin is between valve and piston. Our stg 3 pistons will be adapted to suit.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:53 AM 12-31-2007_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

What I think Billy is talking about is our conversation where he was interested in going with smaller stem valves. I let him know that I have already done the work as far as what is needed for retainers, springs, spring seats, guides and seals, etc for the VR6 12v head. This most likely would be the same combo for a few other VW heads that run a 7mm stem, but I still need to verify this.
Since all of that work has been taken care of, with the proper machine work and tools available, it shouldn't be a problem. 
As for what Billy seems to be asking me to reveal to everyone directly here, it would be this statement:
_"If anyone SWEARS that the presence of an undercut (aka. reduced stem diameter in the bowel area) stem, or the lack or presence of one, they do not know what they are talking about."_
Now to be 100% honest here, I do not have any solid data to go on with this statement, as it is not truly mine. It is a response to my question to the most reputable engine builders and head porters out there in the industry. I always bring up this conversation when I have someone on the phone _demanding_ to have a valve one way or the other.
Some people want to reduced stem diameter in the bowel area (undercut) because it's less of an obstruction for airflow to pass by. Others want it because it creates an increase in airflow by acting similar to an airfoil on an airplane wing, effectively increasing the velocity of the aircharge entering the cylinder.
When it comes to the idea of reducing the stem diameter from 7m to 5.5mm I like it for the reason that it reduces the weight by 25% from the factory weights when using a stainless steel material. If the valves are a Titanium material, the weight will then be a 50% reduction.
As a valvetrain manufacturer, we like to see the least amount of weight in the reciprocating mass. This leads to a lower stress environment on these components, and raises the RPM point at which those components become unstable. 
Sure the Vr6 12v probably doesn't go unstable prior to flow issues arise, but I like to eliminate that as a possibility as much as possible. I keep asking my most respected head builder/customer to work on the VR6 head, but he's far more interested in putting his efforts into my F20c (s2000 head) project since it will lead to far more potential gains than the VR6 head can for the same amount of work. He is after all...in business to be in business. And I cannot fault him for that, especially after being a witness to the "me too!" excitement that never goes beyond that excitement.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Yep, that was just pure interest. I honestly never read and or missed what position you held there, nothing more there to read into. So, this discussion of valves/flow is still on par with this topic and project... if not, then just shoot me.
Here is some VR6 related material, KingVR's old home-made header....








I posted a few pages back that I found an old pic and my IM's blew up with people asking about it.



That header wasn't actually built by me, but rather another individual on Vortex named Scott. He sent me the header to try out and dyno too see what it gained. I cannot recall if I even had a chance to dyno that setup or not, it's been so long ago. I sent it back to him because he was going to reproduce it for the MK4 crowd. I checked back with him a year later....he hadn't opened the box I sent it back in.
It did sound insanely awesome though...couldn't feel a power gain or loss, I think I had the Vortech charger on the car at the time, so it would've taken a lot to notice a change there.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_This most likely would be the same combo for a few other VW heads that run a 7mm stem, but I still need to verify this.


DESCRIPTION O.D. SIZE INSIDE DIAMETER OUTSIDE DIAMETER OVERALL LENGTH
Guide: VW 1.8 DOHC 16V IE Std 0.2758" I.D. x 0.4750" O.D. x 1.495" Long 
Guide: VW 2.8 VR6 SOHC IE Std 0.2758" I.D. x 0.4750" O.D. x 1.495" Long


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
DESCRIPTION O.D. SIZE INSIDE DIAMETER OUTSIDE DIAMETER OVERALL LENGTH
Guide: VW 1.8 DOHC 16V IE Std 0.2758" I.D. x 0.4750" O.D. x 1.495" Long 
Guide: VW 2.8 VR6 SOHC IE Std 0.2758" I.D. x 0.4750" O.D. x 1.495" Long 



ok....done, how about the 8v?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Some people want to reduced stem diameter in the bowel area (undercut) because it's less of an obstruction for airflow to pass by.

By stating this, do you agree with what I just quoted?
This was always my understanding, I am sure the same goes for many others as well. You made mention in our conversation that undercut valves did nothing for flow. That quote totally contradicts this fact that you mention to those interested in undercut valve stems;
_"If anyone SWEARS that the presence of an undercut (aka. reduced stem diameter in the bowel area) stem, or the lack or presence of one, they do not know what they are talking about."_

_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Others want it because it creates an increase in airflow by acting similar to an airfoil on an airplane wing, effectively increasing the velocity of the aircharge entering the cylinder.

An airfoil out of symmetrical shape? That seems very odd...
What reputable porters are backing that theory/statement up?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*



billyVR6 said:


> An airfoil out of symmetrical shape? That seems very odd...
> What reputable porters are backing that theory/statement up?
> [/QUOTE
> I used the term "airfoil" to represent the fact that the airflow charge entering the engine must pass the _larger obstruction_ at a higher rate of speed, similar to air passing over the topside of a wing.
> The reputable head builders that I am quoting are the ones working on the heads for customers like Titan Motorsports (Supra) and others that built $50,000+ Daytona Prototype engines...just to name a few.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Titan eh? Should be pretty easy to hunt down, I would like to hear more on this subject.
I gott say, I am still not buying into that airfoil idea though...
Maybe, when they re-shape the leading side of the guide casting, "shark fin" it, that could be closer to the airfoil concept since you can actually contour the shape, unlike a valve stem.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
ok....done, how about the 8v?

For newer 2L (ABA, AEG etc.) w/ 7mm stem 
Length=1.435 O.D.=0.4765 I.D.=0.2765
Same for the older ('86 GTI RD type) 8v w/ 8mm stem
Length=1.455 O.D.=0.4765 I.D.=0.3149"
There is a longer guide for the older 8v but use the length above for Hydro GTI.
Note: back to the 16v/VR guides... the ABF uses a 35mm long guide. That would be a good length to use in a street head. We'd taper them if we were installing.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
I gotta say, I am still not buying into that airfoil idea though...
Maybe, when they re-shape the leading side of the guide casting, "shark fin" it, that could be closer to the airfoil concept since you can actually contour the shape, unlike a valve stem.

Yah this may be what Scott was referring to. The "teardrop" shape is common. And it does resemble an airfoil shape. However it is important to remember that there are very few hard and fast rules when it comes to this type of port work. What works in one head may not work at all in another. I have personally done tests with no guide boss and even no valve (for kicks) which showed positive gains on the bench. I have also seen this hurt flow. Again, heads and port profiles are not all equal.
Usually wiping out the guide & boss entirely is reserved for all but the most radical of race engine head jobs. However it is done... yet you'll see many spouting off about how it ALWAYS kills velocity, blah blah







When you are porting for a 300* cam and 7500-9500 RPM band, velocity due to port CSA/taper is usually not the concern... the inertia of the air mass and a wide unrestrictive port is. With these high flow heads there ARE changes that can be made which will not show as positive on the flow bench yet will gain horsepower. The relatively weak 28" of water that most benches can flow at is nothing like real world 1 bar (400" of water) and things are different up there...
Having said that, 90+% of the port jobs out there are NOT going to implement such a wide open port and instead will need to keep port CSAs (cross section areas) to a reasonable size and shape that promotes increasing air mass velocity as it nears the STR (short turn radius). For such heads as this that will be running 260-280* cams and that are expected to make torque at RPMs below 7000 you will need to use all the tricks in the book to smooth the port while not removing too much material... will a 5.5mm valve help flow in the VR heads? Stay tuned.








8v heads and an Ecotec 16v (we did not do these heads)


























_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:32 PM 1-1-2008_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
However it is important to remember that there are very few hard and fast rules when it comes to this type of port work. What works in one head may not work at all in another.


That right there is the name of the game. If there were written rules that applied to every head out there, this thread would not exist.
My entire point regarding the _undercut stems_ is that any change that occurs because of it will be so minor that it would not have a dramatic affect on performance. 
To put the undercut in perspective on a 5.5mm stem that I have on my desk at the moment, the stem body is 5.48mm in diameter. The undercut area is 5.08mm in diameter. That's .4mm which is .015" in standard measurements. To think about that obstruction, figure half of the airflow is only affected by half of that measurement. Now you're talking about .007" of difference. Let's compare this with a sheet of copy paper...that's .003" - .004" of thickness. 
So basically we're talking about 2 sheets of copy paper. Four sheets if you want to consider the entire diameter if that floats your boat.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Happy New Year!!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

... and yet that same small difference at the valve seat angles can be a huge difference (relatively) between a good head and a bad head. ... are we having fun yet?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Yah this may be what Scott was referring to. The "teardrop" shape is common. And it does resemble an airfoil shape.

Bill, just to be sure we on the same page here with this, I think we are...
but anyway, this is what I am talking about;








(This is a found image for conversation sake, not my cylinder head, work, etc., etc.)


_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:01 AM 1-2-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

heh heh, gotta love the internet for completely screwing up mankind's ability to communicate







I thought you were talking about a teardrop on the backside of the guide boss. 
Since that is not a VR head I wont go into it here but I'll IM you some questions about this photo.
So to get our terms straight:
This is not an airfoil:








It is a teardrop and is aerodynamically efficient.
And airfoil would be this teardrop cut in half, lengthwise. A 'wing".
If you were to place he guide in the forward part of this teardrop so the leading edge of the guide and teardrop shaped boss were tangent...thats what I was describing...or trying to.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 7:20 AM 1-2-2008_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Understood...
I was just using this as it was the first thing that came to my mind, not 100% correct in term, that's whay I wanted to post an image to say the least to eliminate confusion.
Either way, what you mentioned and what I mentioned are two different ways to direct air and or fluids around an object. I am not up on my "airplane wing" technology, but still, I can't see a valve stem being used as an airfoil and mentioned... simple fact that it is symmetrcal with no trailing edge gives it up right there.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Understood...
...but still, I can't see a valve stem being used as an airfoil and mentioned... simple fact that it is symmetrcal with no trailing edge gives it up right there.

If you put your thumb over the nozzle of a garden hose while water is flowing out of it...what happens?


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_If you put your thumb over the nozzle of a garden hose while water is flowing out of it...what happens?

Water is being pushed out the hose and not sucked out. Does air (a fluid) behave the same way even if it's being sucked through an opening?
By increasing the airs velocity, are we using the advantage of the Mass of the air to more rapidly fill the cylinder?
Never had a fluid dynamics course in school


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
My entire point regarding the _undercut stems_ is that any change that occurs because of it will be so minor that it would not have a dramatic affect on performance. 
To put the undercut in perspective on a 5.5mm stem that I have on my desk at the moment, the stem body is 5.48mm in diameter. The undercut area is 5.08mm in diameter. That's .4mm which is .015" in standard measurements. To think about that obstruction, figure half of the airflow is only affected by half of that measurement. Now you're talking about .007" of difference. Let's compare this with a sheet of copy paper...that's .003" - .004" of thickness. 
So basically we're talking about 2 sheets of copy paper. Four sheets if you want to consider the entire diameter if that floats your boat.


That may seem like a small amount, but you also have to figure the difference in area of the stem over the length of the undercut. Figure the area of the cross-section of the stem in the non-cut part is 23.59 square mm, and of the cut part 20.27 square mm, which is a difference of 3.32 square mm. Figure that amount of area over a cut length of say, 25mm (just a random guess) and you get a difference of roughly 83 square mm- a bit more than a tenth of a square inch of volume that is removed from the intake port- which still may not seem like much but when you are working on getting as much air volume as possible through an engine as quickly as possible, that could be significant.
Not trying to argue with you though, just adding some perspective.








Brendan


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Depending on where you put your thumb... you can get 3 different answers
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-....html
Air is not sucked into an N/A motor! It is pushed in.
>> Does air (a fluid) behave the same way
Yes
>> are we using the advantage on the Mass of the air to more rapidly fill the cylinder?
This question has a number of answers depending on the exact criteria but "yes" would be a the short answer... in many scenarios.


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
For newer 2L (ABA, AEG etc.) w/ 7mm stem 
Length=1.435 O.D.=0.4765 I.D.=0.2765
Same for the older ('86 GTI RD type) 8v w/ 8mm stem
Length=1.455 O.D.=0.4765 I.D.=0.3149"
There is a longer guide for the older 8v but use the length above for Hydro GTI.
Note: *back to the 16v/VR guides... the ABF uses a 35mm long guide*. That would be a good length to use in a street head. We'd taper them if we were installing.

Yes it does,but the stem seal sits 3mm taller and is a useless combination for high valve lift (unless you use longer valves of course)
Longer valves tend to "wiggle" (not sure of the english word) and can cause the valve to "miss" the valve seat at higher rpm.
I see that many engine builders use 55deg seat angle for preventing this,+ slightly better flow at high lift.
I have not read this thread fully,but i noticed the discussion of smaller valve stems.i can not see any downsides using smaller stems,why would it be a downside???
Except from new retainers,seals and guides.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
If you were to place he guide in the forward part of this teardrop so the leading edge of the guide and teardrop shaped boss were tangent...thats what I was describing...or trying to.

I've seen that used quite a bit on high hp big block Olds heads. The real question is why the hell was I researching Olds heads in the first place!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (NORSK)*

Hi Norsk,
>> Yes it does,but the stem seal sits 3mm taller and is a useless combination for high valve lift
While this thread is not about the ABF I do appreciate the insight into this as we don't have this head in the USA and things like this get overlooked. You bring up a good point. I actually noticed this in the photo I have of the two guides side by side but I posted anyway because making the guide shorter in the port was the point.
Regarding the valve guide "downside" .. where was this mentioned ?... besides LHP's stuff about the guide pilot not being stiff. Fortunately there are a lot of Honda head parts and machining tools out there for us.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Air is not sucked into an N/A motor! It is pushed in.
>> Does air (a fluid) behave the same way
Yes



Fluids are always attempting to balance out, just as thermal differences always attempt to equalize. 
It's interesting how simple the action of what occurs when we breath in the air around us. You're doing nothing more than creating a low pressure area for the atmospheric (higher) air pressure to balance out with. An engine does the same.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I've seen that used quite a bit on high hp big block Olds heads. The real question is why the hell was I researching Olds heads in the first place!

Because air pumps are air pumps are air pumps.... doesn't matter what foundry they came out of... fluid dynamics still applies to all of them and there is something to be learned from everyone who ports heads well. The problem with V8 stuff though is that the huge displacements, low RPMs and large valves are not always helpful for VW porting. I pay more attention to the Honda, Ecotec, BMW, Porsche tuning where displacements, valve sizes and RPMs are more applicable.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I've seen that used quite a bit on high hp big block Olds heads. 

Mondello?


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Air is not sucked into an N/A motor! It is pushed in.

Ah, okay. I can see that. Kind of like Hot air doesn't really "rise", it's simply displaced by denser cool air.
So in this case, the piston traveling downward creates a low pressure pocket that is filled by atmospheric pressure pushing the air in.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

and now you need to factor in the inirtia of the air mass which once it's barreling down the port doesn't want to stop when the piston starts to rise and the valve starts to close... then you need to factor in the reflected wave pulse and it's timing back to the plenum or atmosphere where it inverses it's sign, reflects back toward the valve, hopefully along with the new intake air mass for the next cycle... then factor in the harmonics and the temp changes due to compressed air and the fact that this acts more like molasses at speed and .....


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Hi Norsk,
>> Yes it does,but the stem seal sits 3mm taller and is a useless combination for high valve lift
While this thread is not about the ABF I do appreciate the insight into this as we don't have this head in the USA and things like this get overlooked. You bring up a good point. I actually noticed this in the photo I have of the two guides side by side but I posted anyway because making the guide shorter in the port was the point.
*Regarding the valve guide "downside" .. where was this mentioned *?... besides LHP's stuff about the guide pilot not being stiff. Fortunately there are a lot of Honda head parts and machining tools out there for us.

I ment thinner valve stems was mentioned as a "downside"
sorry,my english is not the best








I can't really imagine pilot not being stiff enough when machining valve seats.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Mark Morris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mark Morris* »_
Mondello?

Yep, they know everything about those motors.


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_and now you need to factor in the inirtia of the air mass which once it's barreling down the port doesn't want to stop when the piston starts to rise and the valve starts to close... then you need to factor in the reflected wave pulse and it's timing back to the plenum or atmosphere where it inverses it's sign, reflects back toward the valve, hopefully along with the new intake air mass for the next cycle... then factor in the harmonics and the temp changes due to compressed air and the fact that this acts more like molasses at speed and .....









I think that is the point most people give up and buy a turbo


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Zoso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zoso* »_
I think that is the point most people give up and buy a turbo









Too easy







Plus you wont have the same great NA VR sound. Sure it's similar but it's not the same. Listen to first part of this.. the VRs stand out like a Ferrari in a crowd of Camrys.








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqA0a94xLA


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, was that a red delivery truck on the track? NICE! _*30 minutes or less, or it's FREE!*_


----------



## Stifflers Mom (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Bill, was that a red delivery truck on the track? NICE! _*30 minutes or less, or it's FREE!*_









That would be a Caddy:
http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/sport/1139.asp


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Too easy







Plus you wont have the same great NA VR sound. Sure it's similar but it's not the same. 


Mostly engine sound, but my favorite turbo VR6 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioPJnASpYRU


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: (Stifflers Mom)*

so Bildon Motorsport is offering machine shop services? if so i may need to get in contact with you guys and figure out the best way to ship my bottom end out to you. i dont trust some of the shops around my to do any thing more than hone my VR6. 
also are you guys still looking for vr parts?? i have a spare odbI dizzy motor im not planing on doing any thing with. as well as a obdI euro 2.9L intake manifold i plan to use but would be willing to let you guys borrow it for testing?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_Mostly engine sound, but my favorite turbo VR6 video...

That car is gutted, that's the only reason it's fast...








Good video... 


_Modified by billyVR6 at 11:33 AM 1-4-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Black86GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Black86GTI* »_so Bildon Motorsport is offering machine shop services? 

For many years, yes. The parts sales that you are familiar with is the new part of the business. Have been building race cars for nearly 20 years. We can always use engines but we cant return them after we've machined them.
Unless you are purchasing machine services of course!
If you want to ship engines to be worked on check this out:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...g.cfm
Ignore the links on the left. This page is, like most "under construction"


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
For many years, yes. The parts sales that you are familiar with is the new part of the business. Have been building race cars for nearly 20 years. We can always use engines but we cant return them after we've machined them.
Unless you are purchasing machine services of course!
If you want to ship engines to be worked on check this out:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...g.cfm
Ignore the links on the left. This page is, like most "under construction"

good deal. when i get ready i will get in contact with you regarding prices etc.


----------



## BildonMotorsport (Jun 11, 2007)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
That car is gutted, that's the only reason it's fast...








Good video... 
_Modified by billyVR6 at 11:33 AM 1-4-2008_

That and the fact that the video was sped up for most of it. Having actually been to Hockenheim I can tell you this video is mostly a highly edited bit of BS http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif but yes.. does sound good.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (BildonMotorsport)*

I just posted that because that is the first thing people here usually say when they look at a well prepped drag car.
I never see anyone question road, auto-x, or ralley cars for their lack of creature comforts.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (BildonMotorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BildonMotorsport* »_
The video was sped up for most of it. This video is mostly a highly edited bit of BS http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif

Ditto.


----------



## 79RabbitDSL (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: (Mark Morris)*

Very Cool Project, I'll have to read through the whole thread when I get a chance. How much of the engine are you modeling in CAD? And would it be possible to get a hold of some of these models? It would be a huge help on my current project http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (79RabbitDSL)*

Bildon, do you have any experience with Manley valve train parts? The shop where my head is getting done has all sorts of racing experience from alcohol powered cars to street cars, and endorse them over anything. You seem to know your Ferrea very well, would you mind giving me your opinion?
I will be having the bottom end put back together in early Feb. Have you heard anything new regarding those baffled sumps? Would it be possible to get one ahead of time?


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (cata)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cata* »_Bildon, do you have any experience with Manley valve train parts? The shop where my head is getting done has all sorts of racing experience from alcohol powered cars to street cars, and endorse them over anything. You seem to know your Ferrea very well, would you mind giving me your opinion?

I'll just sit quiet over here with my inside info. LOL


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*

What happened to typing up stage 1 and 2 specs? I want to see this stg 2 intake.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
I'll just sit quiet over here with my inside info. LOL










rofl.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_What happened to typing up stage 1 and 2 specs? I want to see this stg 2 intake.

Still writing it up. Steelers play today though







I hope to have some of it online Sunday. it's getting longer and thats slowing me down.. maybe I'll put the outline online and fill it in as I have time...


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Too easy







Plus you wont have the same great NA VR sound. Sure it's similar but it's not the same. Listen to first part of this.. the VRs stand out like a Ferrari in a crowd of Camrys.








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqA0a94xLA

sorry this is off topic but everytime I see a video it makes me wish I did a national season w/ skip barber instead of putting a down payment on my house, cause I am actually good @ racing... darnit!


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
I'll just sit quiet over here with my inside info. LOL









Why sit quiet? I just PM'ed you.

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_...

I guess I shouldn't count on you providing a baffled sump for us anytime soon. 24V aluminum pan it is then http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .


_Modified by cata at 7:00 PM 1-5-2008_


----------



## twinVR6 (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey guys at Bildon Motorsports, amazing work through and through, I too am currently working on my own N/A 12V VR6 motor, and I am wondering if you can PM me any info that could help me out. Any particular mods you strongly suggest ? I'll get back to you with a list of things I'm planning as well, and would love your feedback. Thanks dudes


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (twinVR6)*

WOW the first page sounds interesting, but i really DONT want to read all the pages... does anyone have a short (or long) summary? please?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (cata)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cata* »_Bildon, do you have any experience with Manley valve train parts? 

Yes. In IMSA GT cars. But they don't make any shelf stuff for 'newer' VWs. ... do they?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (cata)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cata* »_
I guess I shouldn't count on you providing a baffled sump for us anytime soon. 24V aluminum pan it is then http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
_Modified by cata at 7:00 PM 1-5-2008_

The 24v pan is fine for the street. We've given up on our fabricator partner and have gone back to doing custom pans only until we have time to get something into production. However we have not stopped doing custom work. We're currently doing road race pans with a horizontal plate welded into a stock pan. This has been effective in reducing windage as well as stopping oil riding up the sides. Lower baffles can be added for drag or road race/street specific applications. Contact us for specifics. 
An extensive pan with integral scrapers, windage tray, and complete baffled / trapped set up is in the plan for stg. 3 but has not been built.


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
The 24v pan is fine for the street. We've given up on our fabricator partner and have gone back to doing custom pans only until we have time to get something into production. However we have not stopped doing custom work. We're currently doing road race pans with a horizontal plate welded into a stock pan. This has been effective in reducing windage as well as stopping oil riding up the sides. Lower baffles can be added for drag or road race/street specific applications. Contact us for specifics. 
An extensive pan with integral scrapers, windage tray, and complete baffled / trapped set up is in the plan for stg. 3 but has not been built.


This is a noob question but is the 24v aluminum pan a direct, bolt-up replacement for the mkIII 12 steel pan?


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (VWChimera)*

I'm sorry to hear this isn't happening anymore, it seemed like it was gonna be one hell of a sump. Thanks for the update.
Yes, the pan is a direct bolt-on. Just make sure it's from a regular 24V and not an R32. I was told that the R32 pans don't fit.


_Modified by cata at 4:43 PM 1-7-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (cata)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cata* »_I'm sorry to hear this isn't happening anymore, it seemed like it was gonna be one hell of a sump. Thanks for the update.
_Modified by cata at 4:43 PM 1-7-2008_

It is still happening. I just refuse to tell my customers there is a date by which they will have one. It may be a month or 6 months before they are in mass production. I dont know. 
Until then we'll just build 'em as we (you) need 'em. If you need "one hell of a sump"







let us know adn we'll build exactly what you want.


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Yes, I'd like one hell of a sump. In that case, I'll just have to throw the old one back on and replace it myself when this becomes available. Please post an update on here when this is available to be mass produced.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bump for some stage 1 and 2 info. I am in desperate need of a wild set of cams.


----------



## Wish it was a DE (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

this has got to be the longest running thread i have ever seen


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (JazzBlue98DEVR6GTI)*

i think its got the bible beat


----------



## OrangeDUB (Sep 18, 2006)

One of the local bimmer guys in my area was shocked that there wasn't an electric water pump conversion for mk3 or mk4 vw's to free up some rotating mass on the pulley system on our cars. It sounded like they are a very common upgrade on the BMW's..... how effective would that be on one of our street cars? More exactly, a daily driver?


----------



## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (OrangeDUB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OrangeDUB* »_One of the local bimmer guys in my area was shocked that there wasn't an electric water pump conversion for mk3 or mk4 vw's to free up some rotating mass on the pulley system on our cars. It sounded like they are a very common upgrade on the BMW's..... how effective would that be on one of our street cars? More exactly, a daily driver?

Fabricate something. You can buy universal electric water pumps at summit and other online retailers. It really wouldn't be that hard to get one working on one of these vr6's.


----------



## OrangeDUB (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: (Captain16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_
Fabricate something. You can buy universal electric water pumps at summit and other online retailers. It really wouldn't be that hard to get one working on one of these vr6's.


I am sure that would require re-routing the coolant hoses to an electric water pump unit and buying a proper-length belt after the pump is deleted...
I guess my underlying question is would this be much better than just bolting on an aftermarket lightweight/underdrive pulley system?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (OrangeDUB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OrangeDUB* »_..... how effective would that be on one of our street cars? More exactly, a daily driver?

You'd most likely never notice the difference on a daily driver. You'd be better off cutting down the impellers.
- Guys I an still working on getting this stuff written up... sorry for the delay. Spent this weekend getting the one major project out the door so I'm really hoping I can finish this week.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (OrangeDUB)*

You could simply modify your impeller (essentially remove it) and retain your belt combo after you setup your electric water pump.
I'd be leary of what the BMW guys do/say. I knew a guy that installed a small electric fan because "_that's what all the BMW guys said to do_" in order to free up parasitic drag...the drag that the clutched fan creates when it's not engaged...which is nearly nothing until it locks in order to pull more air through the radiator. They think that is more of a drag than the drag that the electric fan creates as a draw on the alternator. It ends up being nearly the same, and now his car overheats and he cannot understand why that is. hmmmmmm


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Any luck finding/making cam billets for an experimental 1-2-3-6-5-4 firing order (to alternate Long/Short/Long/Short/Long/Short head intake passages)? I suspect that the main drawback would be additional stress in the center of the crank -- don't think uneven heating would come into play. To test that, we'd also need a much different header configuration. Has anyone tried a 6-3-1 header combining 1/6, 5/2 and 3/4 (preferably with length differences in the primaries to compensate for the head)? At least it would allow testing of the firing order change without worrying about exhaust collection effects.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_Any luck finding/making cam billets for an experimental 1-2-3-6-5-4 firing order (to alternate Long/Short/Long/Short/Long/Short head intake passages)? 

That was discussed long ago. It makes no sense to change the firing order, as the crankshaft does not care where the power stroke is coming from. The firing order of the VR6 matches the exhaust design. No point in changing it.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I did search and was happy to see that this had already been contemplated, but I didn't think the potentially unbalanced power to the crank was the main motivation anyway. I agree that the crank doesn't care *where* the power is made (other than the possibly increased stress between the 3 and 4 throws if modded). The original motivation for changing the firing order was (at least in my mind) to be able to better tune the intakes by alternating Long/Short/L/S/L/S rather than the current L/L/L/S/S/S. That is, if the long ports can never be as good as the short ports (don't know if that's still true), the best way to tune might be to tune for a combined L/S pair (repeating). Thus, each L/S pair of firings would have the same ram effect and make the same power as the other two pairings of L/S pairs. This has to be better than tuning for S/L L/L S/S. A remaining question is whether there would be even greater trade-offs (such as uneven heating in the head, or mechanical imbalance of the resulting cams, etc.), but those questions may be better addressed by actual testing. 
The 6 into 3 into 1 exhaust (versus the current 6 to 2 to 1) would accomplish a similar balance on the exhaust side (as well as making the exhaust compatible with *either* firing order, I think). 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 10:05 AM 1-16-2008_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

Burns Stainless has evidence that a 6-into-1 collector very rarely makes as much power as a 6-2-1 unit, so I wouldn't waste much time on that, IMO.
When you have a single plenum and the Inline-6 style of firing order that the VR6 has, you provide the best opportunity to give the incoming air (through the throttle body) a chance to distribute to all runners more equally. If were to have a firing order that had a cylinder attempting to breath from a runner that is right next to a runner that emptied into a cylinder, it will suffocate more than it would have otherwise.
I figured the potential firing orders out, and pretty sure there is only one other possibility available. Anything else would require a whole new custom crankshaft in addition to the custom camshafts.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (KingVR)*

I was trying to say 6-3-1 for the header (not 6-1 or 6-2-1). That is, 6 primaries into 3 secondaries into 1 collector. 
I do get your 2nd point about adjacent runners pulling sequentially, but think that might not be such an issue with a stock-style manifold where the L/S manifold runners begin in different planes. 
Agreed, and that one other possibility that could use a stock crank and ignition (with 2/5 injector wiring swapped) is 123654 (that is 153624 with 5/2 swapped), correct?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_I was trying to say 6-3-1 for the header (not 6-1 or 6-2-1). That is, 6 primaries into 3 secondaries into 1 collector. 
I do get your 2nd point about adjacent runners pulling sequentially, but think that might not be such an issue with a stock-style manifold where the L/S manifold runners begin in different planes. 
Agreed, and that one other possibility that could use a stock crank and ignition (with 2/5 injector wiring swapped) is 123654 (that is 153624 with 5/2 swapped), correct? 

I've never seen a 6-3-1 in any application or even in an exhaust theory book/article/etc.
Also you can't just swap the injectors, you need the cam phasing to match as well. Unless you can rotate the lobes it'd be tough!


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I've never seen a 6-3-1 in any application or even in an exhaust theory book/article/etc.
Also you can't just swap the injectors, you need the cam phasing to match as well. Unless you can rotate the lobes it'd be tough!

I think that's what he was suggesting with a billet cam core to start with. That would allow you to design/grind the phasing of each lobe wherever you want to have them.
A 6-3-1 header would definitely not work since you have 2 primaries going into a collector, (3 sets of these), one of them would always have a dead spot in the timing of the pulse. If you look at the OEM setup, it pulses in sequence back and forth, providing equal timing between each pulse in each collector. No offense, but anything besides matched pulse/timing would be a complete failure.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_I think that's what he was suggesting with a billet cam core to start with. That would allow you to design/grind the phasing of each lobe wherever you want to have them.

Yes, thanks. 

_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_A 6-3-1 header would definitely not work since you have 2 primaries going into a collector, (3 sets of these), one of them would always have a dead spot in the timing of the pulse. If you look at the OEM setup, it pulses in sequence back and forth, providing equal timing between each pulse in each collector. No offense, but anything besides matched pulse/timing would be a complete failure.

No offense taken, but I'm still not convinced. If each of the 3 primary collectors collects exhaust from one long manifold runner and one short manifold runner (e.g., 1/6, 5/2, 3/4), but the primaries themselves were of unequal lengths to compensate, there *would* be equal timing between each pulse in each collector. Admittedly, the primaries would have to be longer (say 50%) in a 6-3-1 than in a 6-2-1, but that's just a different calculation. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 12:42 AM 1-17-2008_


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

wow.... too technical


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fatfreevw* »_bildon, I sent you an IM awhile back, long story short being, my HR coil over perches siezed up and in the process of trying to loosen them, the teeth have broken off the lower perches, making them unadjustable. Would you be able to put a new body on and new perches that will actually withold 2 wisconsin winters, without driving... ( thats how they seized )

Email us please this is a VR6 engine thread only. Never got an IM or Email about H&R repairs. Sorry.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:17 AM 1-17-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Guys I want to say Thank you for being patient with us... progress is being made but this past week got real busy. We've been working in the shop but not online as much. I will be posting material here shortly..have faith http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Guys I want to say Thank you for being patient with us... progress is being made but this past week got real busy. We've been working in the shop but not online as much. I will be posting material here shortly..have faith http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Same here Bill. I can't get them to cut one of the exhaust valves for you, so I'm going to send you an assortment of stuff at no charge to play with. We'll be out of stock on the 5.5mm stem items for nearly 2 more months, so I'm sending you 2 different Ti valves to flow with instead for now.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Same here Bill. I can't get them to cut one of the exhaust valves for you, so I'm going to send you an assortment of stuff at no charge to play with. We'll be out of stock on the 5.5mm stem items for nearly 2 more months, so 

Yah it's that time of year. The "OMG my first race is in 2 months" time.








Thanks for the update 'cause you were about to get a 'WTF' email!





















heh heh

_Quote »_I'm sending you 2 different Ti valves to flow with instead for now.

Cool they can go next to my "one" Ti connecting rod.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Have you guys made any progress with cam development?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Yes we have a number of new profiles. But they have not all been tested in the stg 2 and none in the stg 3 engine yet. Some of that info we be going online ASAP as it's nearly done now.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Just to up the anticipation a notch, are the new profiles looking promising?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_Just to up the anticipation a notch, are the new profiles looking promising?

Oh man the LOOK so promising you wouldn't believe it








OK i gotta get back to grinding... Got 3 heads to get out the door by Monday.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Haha, ANTICIPATION building!


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (BildonMotorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BildonMotorsport* »_
That and the fact that the video was sped up for most of it. Having actually been to Hockenheim I can tell you this video is mostly a highly edited bit of BS http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif but yes.. does sound good.

lol... I grew up in Walldorf, one town over.
There's alot of BS as far as VW's goes in that area.
All the fast stuff was in England, Germany was more show then go to be honest.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Oh man the LOOK so promising you wouldn't believe it








OK i gotta get back to grinding... Got 3 heads to get out the door by Monday.









I am in need of valve seals and who does valve seals without upgrading cams....so im patiently waiting
im on my knees with my credit card in hand waiting for the profiles to come out in time for spring when i bring the car back out


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*








any updates or interesting discussion?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

more pics later this week.... we're slammed







But that will help finance the continuation of the project.







Thank you to those who have sent in engines for work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Thatwaslowboost2 (Jan 28, 2008)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

i have a bad short block and a head with bent valves if you could use it? it a obdI motor out of a 92 slc. do you guys cover shipping? Its in Baltimore........Steelers Suck.


----------



## mike minnillo (Sep 23, 2007)

so what kind of power is it making now?


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_more pics later this week.... we're slammed







But that will help finance the continuation of the project.







Thank you to those who have sent in engines for work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

no motors sent but parts ordered. from you guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ill prolly have a second round of parts to order once my block is together.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for customer service sent a email regarding my order and had a response about 30 mins later http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Black86GTI)*

OK it has been such a busy week that I have not had a chance to sit down to write anything ... but I do have some pics from some recent stuff that I'll thrown up here....
Some heads waiting for glory or death...
















Customer heads on the teardown bench...








Some long stem valves for testing solid lifter configurations... in various diameters, various valve back profiles and stem thicknesses... oh yah and some Titanium goodness to 
















Regular SS valve 80+ grams. This baby. 39 grams! 'nuff said.








Trial fitment for flow testing... 5.5mm stem Ti valve on left.








more to come of course....


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

*Reversion !* 








Here is one pic that deserves more comment. This is from an EIP big valve head that we got from a customer. I guess since they are out of business now we can spill the beans on what we found. This is the same head that flowed poorly way back in the beginning of this thread. The photo here shows the effects of reversion. This black soot is *traveling up the intake port* from the exhaust port next to it. This is a result of poor camshaft choice and/or poor intake/exhaust tuning. Now since this came from a car with stock manifolds we can assume the cams chosen were wrong. 
We don't like reversion. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Nicht sehr Gut!


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

any word on cam profiles for stage 1 yet?


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

interesting. None of us have cams that are matched to the heads. Until now this was impossible unless you sent flow numbers to someone like DRC. So I'd hazard that most of us have "wrong" cams.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (vdubjb)*

It's about pulse tuning and cam timing, not really flow.
(Flow is important to cam design but more for lift and duration, not timing)
Companies like Schrick do it right ...and since many cams are copies of Schricks...








But even after using a supercomputer based simulation an F1 team still dyno tests their motors... we're doing the same.
'Tis why we sell cam sprockets for 20v & 16v. With the VR having intake and exhaust both on 1 cam it has to be done via grinding in the lobe centers, overlap etc.


----------



## stevevr6 (Dec 13, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ 

I guess since they are out of business now 

Not to jack this thread, but when did this happen?


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (stevevr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stevevr6* »_
Not to jack this thread, but when did this happen?



Search the r32 archives. They sell Japanese stuff now..


----------



## rventoo7 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

any pricing info yet?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (rventoo7)*

Pricing has been on our website for a while for intakes, cams, rods, pistons, engine management etc. The head porting labor will be emailed to anyone who asks fr it until we get that info onto the website. If you are asking about the kit pricing that has not been put on our site so we're just quoting per order based on each customer's needs..but this is not supposed to be an advertisement so please email us ..we cant answer those types of questions in this forum without getting our hand slapped.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Companies like Schrick do it right...

Nobody in this forum wants to hear that!


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ *Reversion !* 
Now since this came from a car with stock manifolds we can assume the cams chosen were wrong. 


Ok, so that begs the question: What cams were in there?
-Jeffrey Atwood


_Modified by Jefnes3 at 5:15 PM 2-1-2008_


----------



## 15DGR V6 (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

Who knows if EIP installed them.


----------



## Wish it was a DE (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

this is the 12v vr6 bible


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Ok, so that begs the question: What cams were in there?
-Jeffrey Atwood
_Modified by Jefnes3 at 5:15 PM 2-1-2008_

No clue Jeff. The point was not to discredit EIP. Judging from my research they did that well enough themselves. The point was to illustrate the problem.
PS - Answer your emails!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Knowing them probably some $900 stockers!
From that 42mm intake pic looks like a 44mm valve would fit.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

That pic is 41/35 hence the gap.








>> Knowing them probably some $900 stockers!
Funny you should mention that. The EIP exhausts had stock springs in them. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Unlike other VW engines that can get away with stock springs in most cases...the VR really does need at least a "sport" spring in it to prevent "float". You can "zing" these engines with these relatively big valves & high RPMs.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:41 PM 2-1-2008_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Not a surprise after pulling a head off a customers car with an EIP BVH and seeing a 'two piece' intake valve. Stock springs in that one too. Oops!
I'm thinking 44/34 is the wave of the future.


----------



## 92rado2.8 (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

My Head from EIP had just a broken intake valve from EIP and miss matched exhaust valves, all oem but 3 of the newer ones and 3 of the older ones that had the fatter stem at the tulip







They actually considered this a BVH








Thats actually how I meant Paul








I can't tell you enough not to listen to them and all of their so called "experience". 
Those Ti valves look sweet Bill










_Modified by 92rado2.8 at 2:51 AM 2-2-2008_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (92rado2.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92rado2.8* »_
Those Ti valves look sweet Bill











~_Thank you!_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (92rado2.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92rado2.8* »_My Head from EIP had just a broken intake valve from EIP and miss matched exhaust valves, all oem but 3 of the newer ones and 3 of the older ones that had the fatter stem at the tulip







They actually considered this a BVH








Thats actually how I meant Paul








I can't tell you enough not to listen to them and all of their so called "experience". 
Those Ti valves look sweet Bill









_Modified by 92rado2.8 at 2:51 AM 2-2-2008_


Did you drop an OEM valve or "eip valve" ?








I used my first set of OEM ones with 7500rpm revline between 1999-2005 with no problems.
Rebuilt with new OEM valves due to great deal at local company and have ran 8000rpm for 2 years on OEM 2 piece valves.
0 problems.

were did the valve break ?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ *Reversion !* 








Here is one pic that deserves more comment. This is from an EIP big valve head that we got from a customer. I guess since they are out of business now we can spill the beans on what we found. This is the same head that flowed poorly way back in the beginning of this thread. The photo here shows the effects of reversion. This black soot is *traveling up the intake port* from the exhaust port next to it. This is a result of poor camshaft choice and/or poor intake/exhaust tuning. Now since this came from a car with stock manifolds we can assume the cams chosen were wrong. 
We don't like reversion. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Nicht sehr Gut! 

How much overlap did those cams have








This is some serious ramp up problem.
How early did it acctually open or did it close to soon


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bildon
what price for a 5-Cyl?
42mm/35mm 
10 guides
race valve spring
+port & machine job


----------



## croniccorrado (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

thats kinda funny! my bvh from eip kept breaking every 1200 miles or so. it kept breaking springs. so after the 3rd or 4th time i took it back i gave it to someone else to fix. my next bvh head im just gonna take it to bildon and have them do it right.


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Did you drop an OEM valve or "eip valve" ?










Remember it's rarely the valve's fault. The installation is critical (seat pressure, installed height, etc) as is proper valve spring selection to prevent this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_RE...lated
An excellent video showing the most common valve train problems.
'Float' is often caused by a harmonic vibration preventing proper spring actuation....and not by the intake air pushing the valve open as the name suggests.

_Quote »_How much overlap did those cams have

We dont have the cams.

_Quote »_what price for a 5-Cyl?

Email us !


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

wow, great pics


----------



## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

quality work and quality info. thanks for taking the time, as always.


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (fatfreevw)*

stock intake valve = 68.0 grams
stock exhaust valve = 75.0 grams


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
'Float' is often caused by a harmonic vibration preventing proper spring actuation....and not by the intake air pushing the valve open as the name suggests.



The proper term in the valvetrain industry that we use for that description is _spring surge_. That of course leads to _valve flutter_ (bouncing off of the seat). The definition of _valve float_ would be when there is enough inertia in the reciprocating components of valvetrain that the valve will loft itself away from the cam lobe during the closing period.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (inopias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inopias* »_stock intake valve = 68.0 grams
stock exhaust valve = 75.0 grams 

Yup but the comparison with Ti valve above is apples to apples. Long stem big intake in steel is 80+g. 

_Quote »_The proper term ...

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

That video above is fascinating. It's unreal all the little dynamics that can't be easily seen. Now I can really wrap my head around why and how a valve can fail http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Yup but the comparison with Ti valve above is apples to apples. Long stem big intake in steel is 80+g. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

im guessing a ti exhaust valve wouldnt hold up?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Companies like Schrick do it right...

Hey....Techtonics Tuning cams do very well in this community.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Hey....Techtonics Tuning cams do very well in this community.

But TT doesn't design cams. They 'spec' them out to a designer like we do.


----------



## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

How long can take a port head with matched cams


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
But TT doesn't design cams. They 'spec' them out to a designer like we do.

And your saying those designers did them wrong?


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

I dont think bildon is trash talking TT at all


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (inopias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inopias* »_
im guessing a ti exhaust valve wouldnt hold up?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
were did the valve break ?

The head snapped off, I believe right where the two pieces join. Looking at the stem, it did not bend first.


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (inopias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *inopias* »_
im guessing a ti exhaust valve wouldnt hold up?

A Ti exhaust valve will hold up just as well as the intake in most situations. 
A turbo, supercharged, or heavy nitrous application that subjects the exhaust valve to high EGTs (above 1650F) will not do any favors to for a Ti exhaust valve.
To make a Ti valve last on the street....that's for me to know.


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

IIRC, SLC4ME had a set of TT cams that turned out to be the cause of his trashed head. There are also many horror stories about their early generation HD springs failing. Sure, this isn't speaking from experience, but I'm very glad that I'm not. I don't see how Bildon is trashing TT, but I sure as hell ain't touchin any of their products.


----------



## cata (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (cata)*

Back on topic, this thread is an amazing source of food for thought.
Thanks to everyone and especially Bildon for teaching the rest of us a thing or two. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (cata)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cata* »_IIRC, SLC4ME had a set of TT cams that turned out to be the cause of his trashed head. There are also many horror stories about their early generation HD springs failing. Sure, this isn't speaking from experience, but I'm very glad that I'm not. I don't see how Bildon is trashing TT, but I sure as hell ain't touchin any of their products.

FWIW, the TT 24v VR cams had _several_ incidents of cars getting them installed, throwing a CEL for improper timing, tearing apart and checking timing repeatedly but it was timed correctly... ended up being small metal shavings on the cams from when they were made getting into the oil passages in the cam adjusters clogging them up.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

No way was I "trashing TT". I have no idea how you derived that from my comments.








TT is one of the best VW tuners since day 1. We built some of our first cars back in college (late '80s) by calling Darrell up ... (yah you used to HAVE to use the phone!) and picking his brain for info... he was one of the only guys backing up his claims with testing and data! Colin carries on that tradition today. In fact, the VR motor that Colin and Chris built for Berndt's drag car is the only documented 12v engine in all of the world (DOCUMENTED) that I know making 250 WHP! there are claims from others ..bu the proof has mysteriously vanished.








Our race cars all run variations of TT exhausts BTW.
Was flow testing today... has anyone else noticed the later valves are different than the earlier? The later are lighter and have a better back cut/profile.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:59 PM 2-6-2008_


----------



## 92rado2.8 (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*



Was flow testing today... has anyone else noticed the later valves are different than the earlier? The later are lighter and have a better back cut/profile.
[I said:


> Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:59 PM 2-6-2008[/I]


Which ones, Intake or exhaust? I know that the exhaust valves changed the stem shape but not the size of the valve. I never weighed them either. Is there any major difference or is it marginal? Intake I don't know?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (92rado2.8)*

Intakes. Shape is different. Margin & back cut are also different. Anyone know for sure what MY or engine # this change was made with?


----------



## Wish it was a DE (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

so have you made close to 275 crank horsepower out of a 12v yet. isnt that what this thread is about?


----------



## VRTT (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (JazzBlue98DEVR6GTI)*

My questions is, will lighter valves alone yield more hp?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (VRTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRTT* »_My questions is, will lighter valves alone yield more hp?

basically yes. lighter everything frees up more power.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRTT)*


_Quote »_so have you made close to 275 crank horsepower out of a 12v yet.

Stage 3 heads are far from complete. So no. All other components are in place however.

_Quote, originally posted by *VRTT* »_My questions is, will lighter valves alone yield more hp?

Yes. For 2 reasons. 
In simple terms...It takes less work to move lighter components and therefore that energy can be output to the crank instead. And 2nd, HP is measured as work per unit time, so if you can rev quicker (acceleration) and higher (max RPM) you can make more HP.


----------



## acmilano (Jun 3, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

So Bill any details on the Stg 1 and Stg 2 setups and pricing?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (acmilano)*

Email us! We cant advertise here.


----------



## acmilano (Jun 3, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Email fired off through your site. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## highdesertVR6 (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

looks like you guys are doing well in this project http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif lots of great info in here....
but what kind of torque are you expecting thats what im interested in


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_

Stage 3 heads are far from complete. So no. All other components are in place however.

Maybe I've lost the plot but what elements have you actually found to be the key in getting around the VR6's inherent "horsepower wall" ? Is it the intake manifold? Cam profiles being symmetrical when they should be asymetric? Or do you think it's all in the head.... which you said (I think) is not worth re-casting or re-inventing?
I might get slapped on the wrist here but I'm unsure as to what breakthroughs Bildon has made that previous tuners have not.


----------



## VRTT (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

If you looks closely, the 12v is lighter than the 24 engine, now imagine if someone spent the time and money and invented a new aluminum engine block, perhaps with even more displacenemt, well aleast thats what I dream about.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (VRTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRTT* »_If you looks closely, the 12v is lighter than the 24 engine, now imagine if someone spent the time and money and invented a new aluminum engine block, perhaps with even more displacenemt, well aleast thats what I dream about. 

Displacement isn't the issue here. The head simply doesn't flow well enough.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Email us! We cant advertise here.

So is the stage 2 motor done and you just can't share any info on here, or no pricing info, or is it just not done? Just need a little clarification.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

>> So is the stage 2 motor done 
Yes, but....
Stage 2 motor has not been dynoed yet. We have a 3L block ready to go with 3 heads & 5 cam combos to test. We have had no time to build an intake yet. I really want to test some short runner intakes with it instead of just the modified AAA & ABV intakes. This is the busiest time of year for us so its been hard to find time. 
>> you just can't share any info on here
Yes I REALLY have been trying to find time to write something up but have no been able to get anything worth publishing completed. 
>> or no pricing info
All the pricing is set & available if you email us. There seem to be a lot more questions lately on components and labor pricing so we're going to put some of that online ASAP.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
The head simply doesn't flow well enough.

What's the best flow #s anyone has seen on a 24v ?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
What's the best flow #s anyone has seen on a 24v ? 


the only person ive seen on here that has numbers claimed a poor ~ 175 CFM @ .485 lift this is with a 2.8 head. I while back [email protected] did'nt want to tell me what R32 heads flowed at but he did claim 15% gain in flow from doing head work....


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Yes I REALLY have been trying to find time to write something up but have no been able to get anything worth publishing completed. 


Just make a few paying customers wait so you can post all your info on here.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (VRTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRTT* »_If you looks closely, the 12v is lighter than the 24 engine, now imagine if someone spent the time and money and invented a new aluminum engine block, perhaps with even more displacenemt, well aleast thats what I dream about. 

you can order 3.4l 12v motors from overland


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

I swear UK power is something totally different then what we get here.
A quickie on the VR6 with a few valve sizes and prep:
Valve Dia	Area Single	Area Total	Adjusted for flat valve	Race Prep	Fast Road	Street
39	1194.590607	7167.543639	6450.789275	215.0263092	193.5236783	161.2697319
41	1320.254313	7921.525876	7129.373288	237.6457763	213.8811987	178.2343322
42	1385.44236	8312.654161	7481.388745	249.3796248	224.4416624	187.0347186
44	1520.530844	9123.185066	8210.866559	273.695552	246.3259968	205.271664
What's interesting is that I'm sitting at 'race prep' numbers with a ported, stock valve head, small cams, barely raised comp, some porting, etc. 
I think it's a good tool, but not the end all. Hopefully I can get higher then their race numbers with bigger valves as well










_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 9:18 AM 2-12-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Where's this from? Looks like "paper HP" to me. Who records their dyno's data to 6 decimal places?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

To clarify those are 'theoretical' numbers (bhp) based on the calcs in the link Josh posted.
To two decimals








Valve Dia	Area Single	Area Total	10% Red	Race Prep	Fast Road	Street
39*****1194.59**7167.54**6450.79****215.03**193.52***161.27
41*****1320.25**7921.53**7129.37****237.65**213.88***178.23
42*****1385.44**8312.65**7481.39****249.38**224.44***187.03
44*****1520.53**9123.19**8210.87****273.70**246.33***205.27



_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 9:30 AM 2-12-2008_


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_To two decimals

hahaha edit w/ asterisks..funny ****!

BTW- could be worse.. ever see Canadian hp? Sheesh!!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

I didn't feel like taking a screenshot, hosting it and linking the image. Call me lazy!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_10% Red	Adjusted for flat valve

??? Where is this coming from?
"theoretical" is an understatement The port CSAs are the #s one should be using with these heads. There is plenty of room for valve heads. No so for port CSA.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
??? Where is this coming from?
"theoretical" is an understatement The port CSAs are the #s one should be using with these heads. There is plenty of room for valve heads. No so for port CSA. 

It's from Josh above:

_Quote »_.
Just in case anyone else would like to see-
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/PP03.htm 

It was -10% flow for flat valve/piston. I just used that 'tool' and ran a few numbers. If you read the article, I believe that it assumes that the valve is the limiting factor and any valve that you 'fit' in the calc will have an appropriate port leading up to it. Obviously, you don't think that's the case and if I read your Stg1/2 writeup I'd know that already


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Obviously, you don't think that's the case and if I read your Stg1/2 writeup I'd know that already









Touche! ouch







I need to just never sleep. That would afford me the time I need to get it all done.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Obviously in jest, as I'm anxiously awaiting the details http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
It was -10% flow for flat valve/piston. 

Too simplistic....
The VR valves are inclined wrt to the piston/chamber but not part of he crown.
Actually our pistons have 3 angles on the crown. So throw that in with the 15* bore inclination and .......


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Agreed, it's probably worse then 10% if you think that you're actually shooting the air at the far side wall as the piston gets lower.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Depends which cylinder bank you are talking about. One the front bank the STR (short turn) dumps onto the "flat" portion of the crown and on the back bank it is effectively angled. Yet another reason the VR is truly 2 unique engines in one. 
The STR is where the action is


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Yeah I was thinking about that while I was out to lunch. Some days I wish we just had a straight 6 in there so I wouldn't have to think about such things.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_while I was out to lunch. 

What do you mean "was" ?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
What do you mean "was" ?









I meant it literally but I understand the unintentional pun now.


----------



## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Some days I wish we just had a straight 6 in there so I wouldn't have to think about such things.


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (TallaiMan)*

i <3 vr6


----------



## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Anyway...lets get back to talking about the 8v's...oops I mean 12valves.. enough offtopic











Classic Josh dig! He is still around.









Garth


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

>> Shall I post the dyno sheet
Yes, in the 24v Forum!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Bill, again sorry for the OT, but ...this guy decided to slap his dick on the table.

You should have ignored it. Now everybody go delete all this 24v banter please.







Love the 24v, just don't waste space here with it. PLEASE.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_I think the idea of "space" is something that we dropped a good ways back.









I's rather this thread were 30 pages of 12v tech discussion and not 200 pages of fluff.
^^^^^^^^ This is Fluff ^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Use IM ...


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

So anyway....
Have you guys toyed with the idea of changing the angles on the piston crown? Or developing different piston profiles for the front 3 and the back 3 cylinders? It seems to me, that the way it sits in factory form, would cause some discrepancy in the way the 2 banks of cylinders behave.
Brendan


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

On another note, I recently installed an Innovate wideband O2 on my VR and I noticed that it gets progressively richer as I go through the gears at WOT, why is this? For example: 13:1 in first and second, 12:1 in 3rd, and 11.5:1 in 4th and 5th.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

What happens if you hold it in 3rd on a LONG pull up a steep hill?
>>Have you guys toyed with the idea of changing the angles on the piston crown?
This would entail far more than "toying" with it. and we don't have the resources to really do that kind of R&D on this engine. Perhaps down the road as we "fine tune" the yet unfinished stg 3.... wayyy down the road.


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:22 PM 2-14-2008_


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_On another note, I recently installed an Innovate wideband O2 on my VR and I noticed that it gets progressively richer as I go through the gears at WOT, why is this? For example: 13:1 in first and second, 12:1 in 3rd, and 11.5:1 in 4th and 5th.

Because the ECM knows the vehicle speed, it may be aware of what gear you are in. I know for example that the older 5.0L Ford Cobra Mustang was discovered to have a fuel mapping change occur at 90mph for the reason that in addition to having a higher actual load in the higher gears, you will also most likely be holding it at that load for a longer duration than you would in a lower gear. 
Because of this, the fuel map was heavily enriched to avoid burning up components such as pistons and valves. The additional fuel is functioning as a heat-extractor. If the fuel wasn't there to absorb the heat, then the components within the cylinder will absorb them.


----------



## Grifkylian (Feb 8, 2007)

This has gottabe the longest topicon here for responses http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Grifkylian (Feb 8, 2007)

Here what I would do to SAFELY make 200+whp on an NA VR...
-Wiseco Forged Piston Set
-Carrillo Forged Connecting Rods
-Knife-Edged Crankshaft
-SCHRICK 278 Camshafts
-SCHRICK Intake Manifold
-Supersprint Exhaust Manifold
-Neuspeed DTM-Style Exhaust System w/Cat Eliminated
-Neuspeed Valve Springs Set
-Neuspeed Power Pulley Kit
-Carbonio Cold-Air Intake System
-ARP Main Studs
-ARP Rod Bolts
-VF Engineering Motor Mounts
-VF Engineering Trans Mount
-Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump
-Autotech Valve Spring Retainers (Titanium)
-Autotech Valve Lifters
-TechtonicsTuning Valve Guides (Bronze)
-Ferrera Valve Locks
-EIP Tuning Big-Valve Cylinder Head
-EIP Tuning Stage III NA ECU Software
-EIP Tuning 440cc Fuel Injectors
-EIP Tuning 12:1 Head Gasket
-EIP Tuning Spark Plug Wires
-EIP Tuning 4" MAF Sensor
-B&M Short Shifter
-Peloquin Limited-Slip Differential
...
The list of modifications above will probably put down about 215-220 at the wheels, which ain't bad considering a VF-Engineering Stage I Supercharged is rated at that... Of course, as you can see, going NA might not be the best way to go, because IT WILL burn a big hole in your pocket... no doubt http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Grifkylian)*

^^^^^^^^^^^
Just to point out....a few of those components are not compatible together...
IMHO, which is based on experience, that combo would not be capable of putting down over 200whp either.


_Modified by KingVR at 12:44 PM 2-15-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Grifkylian)*









200+WHP
ABV Intake
Bildon Valve Job (mild springs)
mk4 MLS gasket & slight decking to bring CR to ~10.75:1
Bildon Low Friction Bottom end:
Fully Balanced
Fully Blueprinted
82mm KS cast VW pistons w/ hand finished ring gaps.
OEM valves, fasteners, balanced rods.
Bildon CAI
Bildon/TT VR downpipe
Jeff Atwood ECU tuning
10lb flywheel
Bildon gearbox, 100% OEM parts + race diff + race prep.
Car weight 2680#
225/50-15 Kuhmo slicks on the rollers....
Mustang Dyno
>> ....a few of those components are not compatible together...
You beat me to it!










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:03 AM 2-15-2008_


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

No cams!










_Modified by VWChimera at 12:38 PM 2-15-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (KingVR)*

Before you guys start going off on how this is not possible with these few mods let me remind you this... a FACTORY ABV makes 190 at the crank.
A well built fully balanced, race prepped motor will always gain about 10%, sometimes as much as 15%. So now you are at 218CHP. With the open exhaust, raised compression, lighter FW, wheels, tires, and tuning targeted specifically at HP gains in the upper RPM band you have reached 200WHP.
Now on the Mustang dyno we normally use we were about 10hp shy of this # above. This 190WHP # is probably more accurate. Add a mild 262° or 263° cam and you are back at 200WHP with this tune.
Dont discount the engine build. It makes a big difference over just bolting the rods and crank in without a detailed B&B assembly. When we spin a crank over by hand after assembly it spins 'forever' with the caps torqued down.








PS - Using Plastiguage is better than just bolting in the bearings out of the box but it is not 100% accurate. It only measures the clearance at 1 point.
>> No cams!








Correct. But they were "adjusted"








PS PS - Please dont just Quote an entire post including the huge graphic.. it wastes space.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

more on the subject of internal friction....stuff that eventually will be in th e write ups...
One of the areas of the biggest gains in HP over the last 10 yeas has been in the reduction of drive line friction and the recovery of that energy back into useful power to the crank & wheels.
Do a little research about what kind of gains the Nascrap Cup teams are getting just by REM finishing the rear end gears. It's amazing.
Modern metallurgy, machining techniques, surface preps and coatings have really made big gains in the area of putting out more power. 
The point I'm trying to make is that attention to friction reducing details makes a big difference. Our stg 2 & 3 engines will utilize many of these products & techniques. Stg 1 above just pays attention to quality Maschine arbeiten.







Perfect component concentricity and balance, etc.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Exciting stuff there! Can't wait to see what's going on for stage 2.


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

Please don't think I was discrediting your findings in any way. I was actually very impressed with the figure and how few mods went into producing it. My post was reflecting the excitement I felt as I visualized what the curve might have looked like with cams.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (VWChimera)*

>> 
Please don't think I was discrediting your findings in any way. I was actually very impressed
No worries I didnt take it that way.








>> what the curve might have looked like with cams.
Sadly even with cams a stock head cant bust through the 4500 RPM torque loss point... more on that to come http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
To be clear..it will make more power with cams even above 4500... it's just that you still get that all too familiar "plateau" in the torque output.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Grifkylian)*

Your list wasn't too bad until you got here:
-EIP Tuning Big-Valve Cylinder Head (We have one... not so good)
-EIP Tuning 440cc Fuel Injectors (totally overkill, the engine needs AIR!)
-EIP Tuning 12:1 Head Gasket (impossible)
-EIP Tuning Spark Plug Wires (uhhhhhh ) 
-EIP Tuning 4" MAF Sensor (way too big)
-Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump (also uneeded)
Oh I forgot to mention the dotted curve above is the same engine with the stock ECU in it. 


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:59 AM 2-15-2008_


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Oh I forgot to mention the dotted curve above is the same engine with the stock ECU in it.

No other changes in the runs besides ECU? What is with the nasty dip OEM at 6 grand??


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
No other changes in the runs besides ECU? What is with the nasty dip OEM at 6 grand??

Correct. Same day, same session.
Thats the well known Euro intake issue with a USA spec ECU.


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I found a great article for the advanced noob, on head modifications from Grass Roots Motor Sports...
http://www.grmotorsports.com/b...s.php
Impressive #'s on the race raddo....what is w/ the dip on the stock ecu, for a second there it looks almost like a schrick intake mani! I am really suprise on how much more you got out of tuning! What is in there for oil control? aka windage/crank scrapper/baffeling?
Why are you guys running 225/50/15's instead of 225/45/15's which are shorter and helps gearing and less rubbing. Then again I am sure you got something sillly like 4.24's in there or something!










_Modified by jungle at 2:50 PM 2-15-2008_


----------



## Grifkylian (Feb 8, 2007)

I just made a list of things that I would do to it or related to it. I then re-checked and realized as well that some of the components I listed DO NOT WORK


----------



## Grifkylian (Feb 8, 2007)

I've seen a '94 Jetta GLX (OBD-I) dyno with:
-Autotech 268 Camshafts
-Autotech Valve Springs w/Retainers
-Autotech ECU Chip
-Carbonio CF Cold-Air Intake System
-Neuspeed DTM-Style Cat-Back Exhaust
-Neuspeed Spark Plug Wires
-OBX Exhaust Headers
-VF Engineering Motor Mounts
It made:
187whp @ 6100rpm
169whp @ 4400rpm
...
and w/o the cat it made:
199whp @ 6100rpm
178trq @ 4500rpm
Ain't bad for a car that started with 145 or so at the wheels


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_more on the subject of internal friction....stuff that eventually will be in th e write ups...
One of the areas of the biggest gains in HP over the last 10 yeas has been in the reduction of drive line friction and the recovery of that energy back into useful power to the crank & wheels.
Do a little research about what kind of gains the Nascrap Cup teams are getting just by REM finishing the rear end gears. It's amazing.
Modern metallurgy, machining techniques, surface preps and coatings have really made big gains in the area of putting out more power. 
The point I'm trying to make is that attention to friction reducing details makes a big difference. 

i was told by a guy who builds stock cars that race at the Poconos in PA. and he was saying the same thing. he said he made decent gains from reducing gear weights (shaving them down) in the rear end. he said he'd also blend oils and various lubrications to reduce resistance. of course these are race cars that will be rebuilt frequently.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (jungle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jungle* »_
Why are you guys running 225/50/15's instead of 225/45/15's 

Cause Kumho didnt make a 225/45 and we were sponsored. FREE beats optimal ratios any day







Oh an yes we run a 4.24:1 R&P.


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Grifkylian)*

So do you have autotech 262's(autotech doesn't make a 268)or another companies 268 profile cam DRC,Techtonics,Eurospec, or Schricks? As for exhaust it would have to be Techtonics completely from downpipes,cat,and catback exhaust. Techtonics makes equipment that makes power and that works also. Get rid of the OBX headers and port the hell out of stock exhaust manis and you will gain anywhere from 4-8whp across the band. GIAC or Techtonics chip along with an Apexis Super SAFCII or Megasquirt to tune the GIAC or TT chip the the fullest of what youw want. That would be along with other stuff CAI,Schrick VGI or gutted intake mani,pullies UR or Nuespeed,cams(your choice you know you have many choices),LFW, and clutch. 
Now Bildon if he so chooses might correct me if so cool I need all the help I can get.


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_ 
200+WHP
ABV Intake
Bildon Valve Job (mild springs)
mk4 MLS gasket & slight decking to bring CR to ~10.75:1
Bildon Low Friction Bottom end:
Fully Balanced
Fully Blueprinted
82mm KS cast VW pistons w/ hand finished ring gaps.
OEM valves, fasteners, balanced rods.
Bildon CAI
Bildon/TT VR downpipe
Jeff Atwood ECU tuning
10lb flywheel
Bildon gearbox, 100% OEM parts + race diff + race prep.
Car weight 2680#
225/50-15 Kuhmo slicks on the rollers....
Mustang Dyno
>> ....a few of those components are not compatible together...
You beat me to it!









_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:03 AM 2-15-2008_

sounds about like my build once I get my pistons and can get my bottom end to the machine shop. only problem is its starting to get into race season so my machine shop might take a while to get things done.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Black86GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_more on the subject of internal friction....stuff that eventually will be in th e write ups...
One of the areas of the biggest gains in HP over the last 10 yeas has been in the reduction of drive line friction and the recovery of that energy back into useful power to the crank & wheels.
Do a little research about what kind of gains the Nascrap Cup teams are getting just by REM finishing the rear end gears. It's amazing.
Modern metallurgy, machining techniques, surface preps and coatings have really made big gains in the area of putting out more power. 
The point I'm trying to make is that attention to friction reducing details makes a big difference. Our stg 2 & 3 engines will utilize many of these products & techniques. Stg 1 above just pays attention to quality Maschine arbeiten.







Perfect component concentricity and balance, etc. 

do u mean actually polishing every part of the transmission (i dont know exactly what the process is but ive read and seen pics.) thus lowering the coefficient of friction in the tranny. ive heard of hardcore guys doing this and gaining 15whp. iam sure process is very labor extensive


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

>> do u mean actually polishing every part of the transmission 
No. REM finishing. It's a chemical process, not polishing. No labor. Toss the parts in a bin and take them out later. Done.
http://www.taylor-race.com/isotropic.cfm
We also offer this service as there is a REM finishing place a couple towns over that does a lot for pro teams.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

will Jeff's software for this kind of setup be available seperately? i've got a similar setup for the car minus the bottom end (which shouldnt affect the tune too much i dont think) and i would love to try his software
by spring im going to be running
268 Dougherty Racing Cams
Bildon retainers and springs
lightweight lifters
ABV intake mani
Turn 2 CAI
Big bore downpipe and test pipe
2.5 inch scorpion catback
Delrin stage 2 motor mounts
i've currently got giac software for stock cams and im shopping around for cam software...will jeff's software be available seperately?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

>> will Jeff's software for this kind of setup be available separately?
Yes from him but not from us. Give him a buzz he'll tune it. 
We're doing GIAC, Piggyback customs and Stand Alone solutions here.

>> 268 Dougherty Racing Cams
What are the exhaust duration specs on these? Thought Foffa's were turbo cams.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_>> will Jeff's software for this kind of setup be available separately?
Yes from him but not from us. Give him a buzz he'll tune it. 
We're doing GIAC, Piggyback customs and Stand Alone solutions here.

>> 268 Dougherty Racing Cams
What are the exhaust duration specs on these? Thought Foffa's were turbo cams.

i'll def give jeff a buzz...would be interesting to see what he could cook up and if it would be greater than the generic 268 giac chips
im not sure what the exhaust specs are on them. these are the cams that are offered off of his website and are supposedly a schrick 268 copy made out of chill cast billets and are much cheaper
i tried looking around for the complete specs but i've only been able to find whats on his website
http://www.drcamshafts.com/


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

My bad, thought you were talking about Foffa's grind. 
Exh. Dur is the same as Intake 230 @ 050"
The Schrick 268 has a tad more lift at 11.4mm vs your 11.2mm.
Schrick lobe centers are 115 vs your 112.
>> and if it would be greater than the generic 268 giac chips
Yes. A custom tune should always beat out a generic product that has to be programmed to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_My bad, thought you were talking about Foffa's grind. 
Exh. Dur is the same as Intake 230 @ 050"
The Schrick 268 has a tad more lift at 11.4mm vs your 11.2mm.
Schrick lobe centers are 115 vs your 112.
>> and if it would be greater than the generic 268 giac chips
Yes. A custom tune should always beat out a generic product that has to be programmed to the lowest common denominator.

Just out of curiousity what e xactly does your lobe center affect ?
also the DRC website advertises them at 115 lobe center and .450" lift which is 11.4MM


_Modified by WannabeVWguy at 3:30 PM 2-16-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WannabeVWguy* »_
> the DRC website advertises them at 115 lobe center and .450" lift which is 11.4MM


You're right I looked at the 8v 268 cam








A wider lobe center gives broader torque band and more torque up top.
A narrower one builds the torque quicker but it falls off faster too.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
You're right I looked at the 8v 268 cam








A wider lobe center gives broader torque band and more torque up top.
A narrower one builds the torque quicker but it falls off faster too.

interesting...thank you for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Grifkylian (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

This was my cousin's car. I also told him that he should port the stock manifold and that it would be more cost efficient but he did what he wanted I guess. And the camshafts were Techtonics Tuning Cams, NOT AUTOTECH. Haha, my bad, I have the Autotech 262's on my project Mk2 VR










_Modified by Grifkylian at 6:06 PM 2-16-2008_


----------



## Grifkylian (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

I agree. How can polishing a part add horsepower? I've never gained any power after I polished my VR6 intake manifold...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Grifkylian)*

Bill, nice dyno, love the dip! You have a run file for those pulls, I'd love to see my 187 stock head and 198 ported overlaid that. 
More ABV 'dip' dynos:








That's with an off the shelf GIAC distro file. Seems a bit worse in magnitude, but it only did it at lower rpms.


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_What are the exhaust duration specs on these? Thought Foffa's were turbo cams.

Foffa original cams were for a turbo application but I think DRC is also using his same calculations to regrind NA models as well.


----------



## VR6ators (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

wheres that vr6 AAA oil pan baffle you promised?? Anyone know where I can find one of those... im not a fan of that buzzer goin off during autocrossin...


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (VR6ators)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6ators* »_wheres that vr6 AAA oil pan baffle you promised?? Anyone know where I can find one of those... im not a fan of that buzzer goin off during autocrossin...









That was addressed a page or two back. Their supplier was unable to produce them, so they are fabbing them themselves on an as ordered bassis.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

Exactly.
FYI, we're finishing up a couple of customer engines here now and then we'll get back to the project motors. There is a lot to catch up on and we'll be posting quite a bit here it a bit.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Hurry I went from the edge of my seat to on the floor shaking.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

wow nce


----------



## VR6ators (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

sorry bout that its tough to get through 62 pages of a post..


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*MLS Gaskets*

We struck a deal with a "major racing head gasket maker"







to produce MLS gaskets coated with Viton in both NA thicknesses and CR reducing turbo gaskets. Bores are still TBD... which is why I'm posting this...
What bores are you guys looking for? 
BTW, we're looking at about 5-6 weeks til production begins.
*Gasket size POLL HERE* 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3707239


_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 12:58 PM 2-27-2008_


----------



## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_We struck a deal with a "major racing head gasket maker"







to produce MLS gaskets coated with Viton in both NA thicknesses and CR reducing turbo gaskets. Bores are still TBD... which is why I'm posting this...
What bores are you guys looking for? 
BTW, we're looking at about 5-6 weeks til production begins.
*Gasket size POLL HERE* 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3707239

_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 12:58 PM 2-27-2008_

MLS = Multi-Layer Steel
For those of us playing along at home, what advantage does a MLS coated w/ Viton have over say a stock MK4 gasket. Because the MK4 is an MLS gasket already that will go to 83.5mm, correct?
keep up the good work and thanks for sharing!








-m


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (maxslug)*

Correct.
But we'll have multiple thicknesses available, bores beyond 83.5 and the Viton coating which ensures a perfect seal is not on the mk4 gasket.


----------



## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Bildon Motorsport)*

pfff viton, a little spray paint and a used metal gasket works for me


----------



## VRTT (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (inopias)*

Why not o-ring the head instead?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (VRTT)*

No need
Too expensive


----------



## BonTechnik (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Bildon Motorsport)*

What will the viton headgaskets run approx.?


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (pacobonnin)*

has any testing been done with over sized valves or stock sized valves with undercut stems? my block is under way and im trying to decide what direction im going with my CYL head. 
I have a pretty much stock bottom end other than abv pistons and arp main and rod bolts along with every thing being balanced. time to order valve train parts any input or should i just use stock valves and some porting?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Black86GTI)*

Shoot us an email and we'll go through your options with you.


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Shoot us an email and we'll go through your options with you. 

will do later today


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Black86GTI)*

just hoping silence means progress. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (kevwithoutacorrado)*

Nope. Absolutely zero progress on the VR6 engines last week and this week looks no different. Too many other paying customers in the way and the parts sales are very busy this time of year. We'll get back to it as soon as possible.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Bildon Motorsport)*

Good to hear also. Gotta support the project somehow http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (kevwithoutacorrado)*

post about an a3 3.2 baffled shorter pan with shorter pump pickup fitting on a 12v
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3689772


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (VR SEX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR SEX* »_post about an a3 3.2 baffled shorter pan with shorter pump pickup fitting on a 12v
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3689772


and how does this have to do with performance?


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (subrosasix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *subrosasix* »_

and how does this have to do with performance?









ground clearance and baffles


----------



## Canadian2.0L8v (Sep 17, 2007)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (VR SEX)*

just an idea...i wonder if it's possible to modify and integrate bmw's infinitly variable valve timing to the 12v VR6...
i'm a student in mechanical engineering, just a newbie for now, but this really intreagues me.


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Canadian2.0L8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Canadian2.0L8v* »_just an idea...i wonder if it's possible to modify and integrate bmw's infinitly variable valve timing to the 12v VR6...
i'm a student in mechanical engineering, just a newbie for now, but this really intreagues me.

no
vr6 shares intake / exh lobes on one cam how are you going to vary them?


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (subrosasix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *subrosasix* »_

and how does this have to do with performance?









umm can you say oil control


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (Black86GTI)*

the pan has baffles to direct oil toward the pump and prevent oil starvation under harsh corner load....


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Dry Sump Pan!*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Not unless we have to. Or if some of you turbo guys want to help fund the fabrication & R&D we can get on it right away.

Chunk of T6061 on its way to me for this:








Going to be putting up my sheet metal pan for sale.


----------



## TehLonz (Oct 5, 2006)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (INA)*


----------



## Wish it was a DE (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (INA)*








where do you mount the oil reservoir when running this dry sump system.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Wish it was a DE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wish it was a DE* »_







where do you mount the oil reservoir when running this dry sump system.

I suggest in the trunk


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (subrosasix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *subrosasix* »_has anybody ever did an electric water pump....



I wonder if you can use an underdriven alternator and an electric water pump together... Probably would be terribly unreliable for low RPM/street use, but for a race-only vehicle maybe it would save a few horses? While certainly not off-topic, I reckon engine accessories are less interesting to the audience here...


_Modified by phatvw at 3:40 PM 3-28-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (phatvw)*

Gains from removing alternator ~1-2hp
Our race engines often use a race prepped water pump with cut down impellers to reduce cavitation at high RPM. 
Gains from removing prepped WP ~ Not measurable
These are not big V8s with huge poorly designed water pumps.
Another SCCA head out the door...
http://corradoracecar.blogspot.com/


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Another SCCA head out the door...

Do you put the head on a flow bench before and after to compare the flow gains?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (tekstepvr6)*

When customers request it, of course.


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_When customers request it, of course. 

Can you post any before and after graphs?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Gains from removing prepped WP ~ Not measurable

Depends on the application.The water pump running counter clockwise makes mounting an alternator low very difficult without the use of a dummy tensioner.
Right now I am working on an electric water pump set up all though I might scratch it and just make a reverse scroll impeller for the water pump.


----------



## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Wizard-of-OD)*

i was just asking a question, i got my answer oh well.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (tekstepvr6)*

I'll dig some data up on these heads. They are not very modified due to the rules under which they had to be prepared. I would not even call them "stage 1" heads.


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Bildon Motorsport)*

AHM is great they are less than two miles from me. I had them do my head with Ferrara valves and now I make 5psi where I used to make 1 or 2. Thanks for the read , look foward to seeing progress made. : http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KingVR (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_AHM is great they are less than two miles from me. I had them do my head *with Ferrara valves and now I make 5psi* where I used to make 1 or 2. Thanks for the read , look foward to seeing progress made. : http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Our Ferrea Valves gave you 5psi of boost?








We were not aware of this!!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Valve Job*

re: the SCCA head. The class this head was built for allows very few modifications. Never the less, the valve seat prep and the seat's location relative to the surface can make real differences in flow over stock. The stock heads often are machined with a flow impeding lip between the seat and surface which was also dealt with. 
Keep in mind these changes are LESS than what we'd do on our Stg 1 heads. The improvements are not bad for the very small changes allowed by the rules.
Note: The real CFM #s are about 4-5 CFM higher than this due to the fact that I didn’t put a radius on the edge of the intake port when I flowed it. So call it 155-ish CFM @28" But more importantly it's the gain #s that we're looking at.
Stock Head Bildon Head (Stg 0+) 
----------------------------- ------------------------------
Valve Test Test CFM
Lift Pres %Flow SCFM	Press %Flow SCFM Gain
0.050	28"	7.5% 29.9 28.1"	8.3%	33.3 +3.4
0.100	28.4	13.2% 52.7 28.1 14.2% 56.8 +4.1
0.150	28.2	18.9% 75.4 27.9 19.8% 79.3 +3.9
0.200	28 24.6% 98.3 28.1 25.2% 100.8 +2.5
0.250	28.2	28.7% 114.6 27.9 29.1% 116.5 +1.9
0.300	28	31.3% 125.1 28.1 33.5% 134.0 +8.9
0.350	28	34.2% 136.6 28.2 36.8% 147.3 +10.7
0.400	28	36.2% 144.9 28 37.7% 150.8 +5.9
well so much for formatting...it stripped all the spaces out










_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:42 PM 4-1-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Valve Job (Bildon Motorsport)*

It's interesting to note:
The theoretical HP for a 3L 6 cyl w/ Ports flowing 145 CFM is 224 at 6250 RPM
The theoretical HP for a 3L 6 cyl w/ Ports flowing 151 is CFM is 233 at 6500 RPM
So that amounts to ~10 HP from a valve job alone at max lift. The gains are larger at the .3" & .35" lift points where the engine spends more time.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (KingVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KingVR* »_
Our Ferrea Valves gave you 5psi of boost?








We were not aware of this!!









He said he went from 1-2psi to 5psi at low rpm
~the same difference that mid afternon vs boosting in the evening.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: Valve Job (Bildon Motorsport)*

Fixed it for you.

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_re: the SCCA head. The class this head was built for allows very few modifications. Never the less, the valve seat prep and the seat's location relative to the surface can make real differences in flow over stock. The stock heads often are machined with a flow impeding lip between the seat and surface which was also dealt with. 
Keep in mind these changes are LESS than what we'd do on our Stg 1 heads. The improvements are not bad for the very small changes allowed by the rules.
Note: The real CFM #s are about 4-5 CFM higher than this due to the fact that I didn’t put a radius on the edge of the intake port when I flowed it. So call it 155-ish CFM @28" But more importantly it's the gain #s that we're looking at.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Depends on the application.The water pump running counter clockwise makes mounting an alternator low very difficult without the use of a dummy tensioner.
Right now I am working on an electric water pump set up all though I might scratch it and just make a reverse scroll impeller for the water pump.

I'm wondering if/what are the benefits to running reverse cooling on these motors. That to me would be my main reason to running an electric water pump.
Any thoughts? Should improve combustion efficiency.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Fast929)*

What kind of CHT are those who want to do this seeing?


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: Dry Sump Pan! (Bildon Motorsport)*

just got my bottom end back from the machine shop. thanks for the pistons Bildon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff*

Here's some 'garbage' that was not relevant to the project any longer so I thought I'd toss it out here. Note: This stg 2 head is not a "good one" it's a "7" out of ten port job... so don't get to wrapped up in the CFM #s. As always it's the deltas here that are interesting.
Stage 2 test head #004
#3 long port w/ no valve @ 28"
- No radius on inlet face = 172 CFM @ 28"
- with clay radius on inlet face = 174 CFM @ 28"
- with Euro short VR5 lower mani = 165.5 CFM @ 28" *<< !!* 
- with US mk 4 VR6 lower mani = 153 CFM @ 28"
- with US mk 3 VR6 lower mani = 155 CFM @ 28"
-----------------------------------------------------------
- with full US mk 4 VR manifolds = 161 CFM @ 28" (no TB)
- with full US mk 3 VR manifolds = 160 CFM @ 28" (no TB)
Points of interest. 
mk 3 & mk4 full intakes flow the same.
Full intakes flow BETTER than lowers alone
Euro VR5 mani not only has better port length but flows better.
Left off this list:








- Bildon modified lower mani XXX CFM @ 28"
- Bildon worked & ported upper & lower mk3 XXX CFM @ 28"
- Bildon ITB lower XXX CFM @ 28"
- Bildon full 40mm ITBs XXX CFM @ 28"
- Bildon full 45mm ITBs XXX CFM @ 28"
Theoretical #'s for those who can only think in terms of HP








The HP for Head Flow of 153 CFM is 236 HP at 6,500 RPM
The HP for Head Flow of 165.5 CFM is 255 HP at 7,000 RPM
Our new target for stage 3 is 300+. 2xxHP is sooo last year. 
























Mani test pics:
VR5 Euro
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%...2.jpg
mk4 VR6 
http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%...3.jpg
Dont forget to plug the injector hole!








http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6%...4.jpg


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Theoretical #'s for those who can only think in terms of HP








The HP for Head Flow of 153 CFM is 236 HP at 6,500 RPM
The HP for Head Flow of 165.5 CFM is 255 HP at 7,000 RPM
Our new target for stage 3 is 300+. 2xxHP is sooo last year.
















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif great news


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*

Cool thing to get the VR5 info confirmed with slightly better flow.

BTW is that maximum machining of OEM seat in that picture?
How large is that hole ?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif /Fredrik


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff ([email protected])*

Fredrik, I'll try to dig up the #s today for the full US mani vs full Euro mani for you.
That is only a 41mm seat but it is not a good porting job so don't put much emphasis on the raw #s. 
In fact looking at this photo, this tst port had a pretty bad (for us) valve job on it when these manis were flowed with it. Also, as you can see the STR 'shape' is not optimized here...for those who have porting experience you'll most likely know what I mean. It's pretty obvious in this photo.


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*

the cyl head numbers are looking good. even if that is a "bad" job


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff ([email protected])*

- with full US mk 4 upper & Euro mk4 lower = 163.5 CFM @ 28" (no TB)
there you go Foffa. The full Euro is better. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Wish there was a VR6 short runner for us. And before anyone asks.... yes it's being looked at. But not until the ITB system is done.


----------



## 79RabbitDSL (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, What do you use for a template for your porting? Have you ever thought of creating a cad model of the optimal ports and CNC machining the heads. You could take the intensive labor out of porting heads and come up with very consistent results. I think after the initial investment of working out the programming the costs would be much lower than traditional porting.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Stuff (79RabbitDSL)*

Since this thread has started, I've gone from a VR to an 8v to a Rotary and now to a Honda, but I still check on it every couple days. Great work so far, 300whp N/A out of a 12v would be SICK, thing would sound absolutely evil. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (79RabbitDSL)*

>> Have you ever thought of creating a cad model 
Yes, Go read the first few pages of this thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 79RabbitDSL (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
>> Have you ever thought of creating a cad model 
Yes, Go read the first few pages of this thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Sorry, I only skimmed the beginning part of the thread. How are you developing the port profiles, with just flow simulation software, or are you doing some dynamic testing and iterating on the design? Also are you doing the porting with some kind of numerical control so you can be sure the profiles are what you think they are, I would think a millimeter or two could make a big difference.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (79RabbitDSL)*

You really should read the entire first 1/3 of this thread.
>> dynamic testing and iterating on the design?
Yes. The only real way to be sure the changes are positive. Port, Flow test, dyno test.
>> two could make a big difference.
2mm would be a HUGE deviance in port shape. 
We looked at a number of the engine design simulations available out there. For this engine especially, developing models that give accurate #s would take hundreds of hours. I don't just mean a CMM port scan either, thats easy. But the assumptions made for most symmetric engines don't apply. If you have any unsteady gas flow models for the VR6 I'd like to see them








We are using some digital means such as scanning the ports we develop to allow coordinate input into CFD apps for the purposes of optimization beyond the base porting. And we do have valve train design software that works well in helping develop the proper valve & cam profiles.
And yes once final profiles are perfected we use a Centroid 5-axis CNC head porting machine for reproduction. 
Squeezing this in between paying customer work has been quite the challenge however.







It's too bad that the customer we had lined up to pay for all this over a year ago disappeared. IT would have been done by now.


----------



## Wish it was a DE (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*

any progress? pics?


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Stuff (djsheijkdfj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djsheijkdfj* »_Since this thread has started, I've gone from a VR to an 8v to a Rotary and now to a Honda, but I still check on it every couple days. Great work so far, 300whp N/A out of a 12v would be SICK, thing would sound absolutely evil. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

x2


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
#3 long port w/ no valve @ 28"
Points of interest. 
mk 3 & mk4 full intakes flow the same.
Full intakes flow BETTER than lowers alone
Euro VR5 mani not only has better port length but flows better.


Where are the short port numbers from a 'similar' head? 
Though full intakes flow better then lowers alone, wouldn't a lower with a radius also see an increase?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (need_a_VR6)*

>> wouldn't a lower with a radius also see an increase?
A radiused inlet on any tube will *always* help.
>> Where are the short port numbers
Not posted as the #s are not important. That head is not one to compare #s with. The trend is the same. 

You'll be seeing some relevant #s here in the next few days.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
You'll be seeing some relevant #s here in the next few days.

Sounds good, don't make me fall off the edge of my seat again.


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: Stuff (need_a_VR6)*

just some gas to the fire lol
http://www.cylinderheadtech.com/flownumbers.pdf


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (WannabeVWguy)*

25 in hg?
That's 340" of water.








The standards are 10" & 28"of water.
I think they meant 28" of water since their ported head is a bit less than the junked test head we posted on the last page. 200 CFM @ 28" is the magic #. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## David L (Dec 23, 2001)

*Re: Stuff (Bildon Motorsport)*

Do you have any flowchart to share on the OEM exhaust ports?


----------



## stealthmk3 (Nov 30, 2007)

wow, after 64 pages of knowlege i feel much more informed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Keep this going, and im seriously considering bringing my vr up to you guys!


----------



## KransDubber (Apr 13, 2008)

*Less drag on the engine!*

I know this borders on the race engine side, but have you considered doing underdrive pullys, an electric water pump and the removal of the ac pump or a lightweight harmonic balancer? I know your more focused to the internals of the engine but surely those mods would yeild some gain. Just throwing it out there..


_Modified by KransDubber at 5:25 AM 4-19-2008_


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Less drag on the engine! (KransDubber)*

Bildon is shooting for 250-300 whp - internal improvements are what will get them there.


----------



## epic.banned (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Less drag on the engine! (f1forkvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *f1forkvr6* »_Bildon is shooting for 250-300 whp - internal improvements are what will get them there.

I think its all in the head


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Less drag on the engine! (KransDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KransDubber* »_I know this borders on the race engine side, but have you considered doing underdrive pullys, an electric water pump and the removal of the ac pump or a lightweight harmonic balancer? 


A) We build race engines, not street engines. So items like A/C is always removed. 
B) These engine dont gain much if anything by removal of Alternator, Waterpump. The PS pump and A/C are often roved as they are not needed.
C) Removing the crank damper or using an aluminum one which has not been designed specifically to deal with crank harmonics can lose power.
This was also discussed a few pages back.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Less drag on the engine! (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_B) These engine dont gain much if anything by removal of Alternator, Waterpump. The PS pump and A/C are often roved as they are not needed.

Can the PS be nixed for ITS (that is, do you know if there were any Mk3 GTI VR6s sold in the US without PS)?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Less drag on the engine! (o2bad455)*

For SCCA ITS, no.
All SLCs were delivered loaded.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*NEED A3 lower Mani*

NEED ANOTHER LOWER MANI
I'm not sure how one of our lower manis walked off







...but if snyone has an aluminum lower mani they can give up for the project please send it to us.. IM or email for address. It will be machined heavily so it wont be returnable. Thanks!


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Flow Bench Video*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu7pkGYrdyI
Going to be adding more video as we find the time. Videos of the VR6 project. Have a lot of porting and flow bench vids yet to be uploaded.
The plan is to make a long video of all our VW engine porting someday.


----------



## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Reverse Engineering (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_this is what I already had scanned:
















When I did these, I was only concerned with external dimensions. I'll see if I can get the CMM again to scan the ports.
_Modified by BennyB at 5:49 PM 5-21-2006_


dude. that would be sweet.
if you could just scan all the underhood parts, then I can see if I could squeeze a VR6 into a Focus....


----------



## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: NEED A3 lower Mani (Bildon Motorsport)*

IM Sent. Lower mani available.


----------



## #1 S T U N N A (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu7pkGYrdyI
Going to be adding more video as we find the time. Videos of the VR6 project. Have a lot of porting and flow bench vids yet to be uploaded.
The plan is to make a long video of all our VW engine porting someday.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (#1 S T U N N A)*

bump!!!


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (#1 S T U N N A)*

Just saw the video... Cool...
I'm not sure how you could reshape the port to reduce the turbulence.
I mean you can only go so far... Good work...


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*

Just wanted to inquire, would some type of Vortex fund for this project help speed R&D along. Maybe we can get some type of paypal thing going on to help out. I love my turbo vr but I would like to build a a2 vr6 and keep it all motor for autocross and road racing. Let us (vortex community) know what we can do to help.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_Just wanted to inquire, would some type of Vortex fund for this project help speed R&D along.

Not sure how much more R&D can be done....the 12V motor is getting to the point where people would rather just throw an ATP manifold + GT3582R and be done with it.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (bluegrape)*

heh







of course it would but I wouldn't expect anyone to pony up the $ to finish, test & tune Stg 3. ~$5000 is at least what it will cost to finish it. Short of the cash falling from the sky, it will keep plodding along. 
*Two* Stg 2 engines on the other hand are already available for testing... have done some, need time to do more.
New stuff... lighter pistons
















The piston crown design we wanted from day 1.... (needs smoothing)


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Not sure how much more R&D can be done....the 12V motor is getting to the point where people would rather just throw an ATP manifold + GT3582R and be done with it.

Those people are not interested in this thread.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Those people are not interested in this thread. 


I believe they are but this thread was started 2 years ago Bill .I know a few people that went turbo because they gave up on NA VR6 performance.Whatever the case keep the updates coming. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I believe they are but this thread was started 2 years ago Bill .I know a few people that went turbo because they gave up on NA VR6 performance.Whatever the case keep the updates coming. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


i wouldn't turn this into a boost vs. na thread. theres reasons people go boost and other reasons people go NA.


----------



## 92rado2.8 (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bill, what is the difference in the pistons. I see that there is an 84 gram difference and one is arias. What brand is the other and can you elaborate on why they will suit your specific needs better than what is offered by other companies? Thanks


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Those people are not interested in this thread. 


Damn straight. 
Why is the chamber centered instead of offset like stock? Must be some good reason for that one


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Wizard-of-OD)*

well I have a boosted VR and I would like to have a all motor one too!! My vrt is great for playing on the street and strip but has no place autocrossing and road racing.... the A3 platform cannot handle vrt power and stay composed IMO. Thats why a raddo/a2 all motor car is so appealing. Look forward to seeing some #'s on the stage II motors.


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (need_a_VR6)*

Chamber is actually off center. Pic is a bit misleading. I do want to alter the crown a bit from this. Will want a larger quench pad more like the Bildon/Wossner (to custom Bildon specs) next to it.
>> can you elaborate 
The Arias piston utilizes a design that follows VWs design more closely.** Everyone that just cuts a groove straight across the piston (all other pistons) are just taking the easy way out to make the CNC pattern faster/cheaper/easier. 
















What I dont like this method is that the combustion is no longer isolated to the center of the piston and is allowed to "run" to the edges in that "V" channel that all the others cut. I could write a book on why this may not be good but .. I have no book contract








(** since VW is rumored to have gone through over 10 pistons designs we thought it wise to also test this OE type crown design)








Now the Arias is not the perfect piston, either. The quench area is not as large as it should be on the "uphill" side of the piston. Also there are a number of machining details that are missing from the Arias that are part of all Wossner designs. Plus the Arias pin is not optimized.
Total weight should be down around 360g or less (with pin) which is about 40g lighter than the OEM piston assembly. Combined with our RevLite rods and we're looking at a huge reduction in reciprocating weight. Nothing is lighter short of going to Ti rods.
So...another new VR piston design is soon to follow. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 9:59 AM 5-10-2008_


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*

was there any consideration for unmatched cams like a 268 in the front and a 260 in the back... or something along those lines?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_was there any consideration for unmatched cams 

Yes. We are testing the mk4 type setup with Stg 3. If it works out we'll retrofit back to Stg 2. We can't put a ton of development time into this area for Stg 2 because we want to get something affordable and testing multiple profiles like that takes lots of time... and numerous grinds. 








Making progress with our ITBs.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*

Looks better then some of the other 'kits' I've seen.


----------



## epic.banned (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_
Yes. We are testing the mk4 type setup with Stg 3. If it works out we'll retrofit back to Stg 2. We can't put a ton of development time into this area for Stg 2 because we want to get something affordable and testing multiple profiles like that takes lots of time... and numerous grinds. 








Making progress with our ITBs.









Is this the ITB setup you are selling on your site?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (epic.banned)*

Short answer: Yes.
Pictured is the prototype we use to test with, but the ITBs we sell incorporate all that we learn from this setup. We build the VR ITBs to order and therefore the current version we sell is nearly identical to this one.


----------



## epic.banned (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Short answer: Yes.
Pictured is the prototype we use to test with, but the ITBs we sell incorporate all that we learn from this setup. We build the VR ITBs to order and therefore the current version we sell is nearly identical to this one.

If I didn't already have a set of jenvey's this would be my choice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*

Was it decided that the mk3 intake manifold resolved the length difference between the front and rear banks? 
If not, how would it work to enlarge the rear intake valves to allow a bit more air flow in? 
Would it further screw things up being different? Or could it balance out air flow so that the front and back could do as much as they could together?


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (ExtremeVR6)*

Yes the mk3 manifold has different length runners to compensate for head port lengths.
>> Or could it balance out air flow 
Asymmetric valve sizes. Interesting idea. However, the long port restriction is not really in the valve but in the narrow port throat. But I will take a look at the flow data on our various configurations just to check.


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (Bildon Motorsport)*

look forward to seeing what the theoretical reveals...


----------



## #1 S T U N N A (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Flow Bench Video (ExtremeVR6)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OrangeDUB (Sep 18, 2006)

*FV-QR*

That ITB setup is awesome but sadly limited to drive by wire setups, limiting the market








How much is gained with one of those vs. the conventional setup? I couldn't find that anywhere on your website.


----------



## Black86GTI (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (OrangeDUB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OrangeDUB* »_That ITB setup is awesome but sadly limited to drive by wire setups, limiting the market








How much is gained with one of those vs. the conventional setup? I couldn't find that anywhere on your website.

Casey you can always just convert to DBW and run 034efi or some thing. you'd probably want the flexibility of a standalone unless you have some one close that can tune the oem computer


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Black86GTI)*

>> but sadly limited to drive by wire setups
No. This is the 12v forum. The market is not limited for 12v race engines. It's mandatory. As is an ECU developed for the system.



_Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 10:39 AM 5-28-2008_


----------



## epic.banned (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Bildon Motorsport)*

Have you guys had the ITB setup on a car yet? Or has it been just flow bench testing?
Also, what size plates are those?


----------



## ROmpa (Jan 9, 2007)

Do you want to put this to work in europe too?
contact: [email protected]


----------



## crazydubman (Nov 2, 2002)

*Re: (ROmpa)*

i am not sure if this has been covered yet. but have you played with cam timing or at least lobe timing? grinding new cams with altered lobe angles (in relationship to the other ones on the same cam) for intake and exhaust. i guess it would have the same effect as a 16v playing with timing. i know there is power to be made with the 16v setup but could the same be possible on the vr6?
as in advance like 5-10degrees on the intake lobes etc


----------



## #1 S T U N N A (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (crazydubman)*

TTT


----------



## ROmpa (Jan 9, 2007)

like please answer! bump!


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## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (ROmpa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ROmpa* »_like please answer! bump!

Sorry, Don't really understand the post. But if you would like to contact us about business please see the contact info on our web site home page. We're not checking these forums much right now.
*12v Project Update:* http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 







Yah that pretty much sums up the status of the project now. Our other business is going through an expansion which has put additional strain on resources and which leaves even less time than normal for projects such as these. However, we continue to work with a few customers toward the goal. 
On a more positive note. Some recent testing for customers has shown some very positive results on the dyno and flow benches... Leading us to believe our ultimate goal is achievable.


----------



## ROmpa (Jan 9, 2007)

i sent you a mail and got no answer to it. can u please tell a cost for 250 whp?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (ROmpa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ROmpa* »_i sent you a mail and got no answer to it. can u please tell a cost for 250 whp?

AFAIK, the 250 goal hasn't been achieved yet, so how could he know the cost?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*6-3-1 header?*

I've been thinking about headers again. I really think a 6-3-1 (or tri-Y) is worth a try. By pairing 1/6, 5/2 and 3/4 (preferably with length differences in the primaries to compensate for the head), there would be a stronger and more predictable gas inertial tuning effect. I believe that the energy wave could also have a stronger effect, if desired, although that could get complicated. 
I did some web searches and found that 6-3-1 is not unknown in 6-cyl tuning, and has given "unexpectedly" better results in at least a few cases. Has anyone ever made a 6-3-1 VR6 header? If I had to start from scratch, I think I'd use the same lengths as a VW 4-cyl 8V for the primaries, adjusted for the alternating port lengths of the VR6 head, with proper merge collectors. The secondaries would need more number crunching and/or experimentation. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 9:24 PM 6-27-2008_


----------



## Bildon Motorsport (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: 6-3-1 header? (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_ By pairing 1/6, 5/2 and 3/4 (preferably with length differences in the primaries to compensate for the head), there would be a stronger and more predictable gas inertial tuning effect. 

A 6-3-1 is 3x, 2-1 systems. A 6-2-1 is 2x, 3-1 systems.
Why does your analysis suggest a stronger inertial tuning effect from your 2-1 that that of a 3-1 ? Not challanging your analysis just curious as 3 pulses per rev 'should' provide better scavanging than 2.
I think your pulses wil be too far apart otherwise to catch the negative pressure wave. 

_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_The secondaries would need more number crunching and/or experimentation

With your design the secondaries will be less sensative to tuned length. Concentrate on getting your primaries right as Tri-Ys primaries are more sensative to the proper tuned lengths.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: 6-3-1 header? (Bildon Motorsport)*

Would anyone happen to know off-hand the effective length (presumably through the center line) and volume differences in the exhaust ports for 1/3/5 vs. 2/4/6? 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_Why does your analysis suggest a stronger inertial tuning effect from your 2-1 than that of a 3-1 ? Not challenging your analysis just curious as 3 pulses per rev 'should' provide better scavenging than 2.

Sure. My thought is that the total inertia of one tube will pull on just one other tube at the first merge, rather than being damped and complicated by a third tube with a closing valve and residual dynamics (which must be exacerbated by the unbalanced port shape on a VR6 with a stock firing order -- that is, two out of three port shapes match in each 3-branch, which can't be good for all 3). Thus, the tuning effect with just two primary tubes should be better defined and more predictable than with three primary tubes for these particular heads -- at least that's my theory and I'm sticking by it, for now. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_I think your pulses will be too far apart otherwise to catch the negative pressure wave.

Farther apart, yes, but I think it's all relative to the selected dimensions. I'd have the same pulse timing in the primaries as a 4-cyl 4-2-1 at any given RPM. Seems to work well with the 4-cyl, and we'd be treating each primary pair the same way in a 6-3-1 as in a 4-2-1. As I type that, I realize that maybe I'm subconsciously trying to make it similar to my old familiar Ice Race / ITC car (2006 SCCA NERRC/NARRC champ Scirocco, now retired). I'd expect to get back the theoretical loss of 2 versus 3 primaries per branch at the final merge of the secondaries, and I emphasize that I don't believe it would be an actual loss in this case, but it could be an actual gain at the final merge. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsport* »_With your design the secondaries will be less sensitive to tuned length. Concentrate on getting your primaries right as Tri-Ys primaries are more sensitive to the proper tuned lengths.

 
Agreed. Thanks







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

this may be a stupid question but, would a direct injection set-up similar to the new fsi 2.0t yeild any gains?? i kno that the injection process is similar to diesel, but im curious if it could be done without big $$$$ and if it would even be worth it. i think ive read that the primary advantage of it is better fuel efficiency if im not mistaken, but im just throwing this out there for curiousity's sake


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: (DJP944)*

The VR head is crowded enough, trying to stick injectors in there too would be a huge mess, IMO. Not to mention extremely expensive, as well as more-than-likely impossible.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (DJP944)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJP944* »_this may be a stupid question but, would a direct injection set-up similar to the new fsi 2.0t yeild any gains?? i kno that the injection process is similar to diesel, but im curious if it could be done without big $$$$ and if it would even be worth it. i think ive read that the primary advantage of it is better fuel efficiency if im not mistaken, but im just throwing this out there for curiousity's sake 

in my humble and noobish opinion, i think so. 
[edit]
well if it wasnt crowded 


_Modified by mujjuman at 1:37 AM 6-30-2008_


----------



## BrownSoda (Mar 21, 2004)

*Re: (mujjuman)*

bump to show my support. really been a great thread. been watching since the beginning. Great things Bill


----------



## onemiljard (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: (DJP944)*









Maybe you have something on this part, made by hand on request
by verhoeven Tuning.
http://www.verhoeventuning.com
[email protected]
Tel +31 (0) 318 45 7879
Fax+31 (0) 318 45 7978 The netherlands
Greetz,
Anderson.


----------



## BIGNICKSGTIS420 (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (onemiljard)*

^^MORE!MORE!MORE!


----------



## Roadhog_ (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: (BIGNICKSGTIS420)*


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Roadhog_)*

The search for a header that makes power has gotten to the point where the money it would take to do it if it's possible would be outrageous in price.


----------



## vdubxcrew (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

That header looks like it wouldn't even fit in our engine bays. Makes a nice looking stainless bouquet though.


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## onemiljard (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

Yeah, the price of this part, it´s about 1750€ Euro. 
Don,t even speak about the dollar price.
Unfortunately not for everybody.








The Header (if im right) fit in a mk2 whithout bodywork, mounted on a VR6 of course.


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

just finished reading every page. Good work guys, keep it up. I will apply what i can to my vr6 audi before i boost.

keep on keepin on


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## German_Aesthetic (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: Stuff (WannabeVWguy)*

found this of note. flow optimization more like the Japanese? CFMs = rev happy (eg: to 8500rpms.)

_Quote, originally posted by *WannabeVWguy* »_just some gas to the fire lol
http://www.cylinderheadtech.com/flownumbers.pdf

according to this pdf, 12v vr6 has 148CFMs stock, 176 after porting, but 1.8L type R head has 248CFMs stock, 283CFMs after porting. That means it won't fall on it's face gasping for air at 9000 rpm?
Haven't I read several paces the vr6 was designed as a possible diesel motor? Diesels run at low rpms and make torque, not HP.
So, all about the flow, which the vr6 head is problematic by design:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu7pkGYrdyI
How does F1 make NA horsepower??? 19,000 RPMS! FLOW! It's able to do more work per minute because it has more powerstrokes per minute. turbulence is parasitic as RPM goes up engine gasps for air, it's working overtime to flow what it wants to breathe.
Also, bore stroke ratio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_ratio
Formula One engines have a bore to stroke ratio of approximately 2.5:1 and are capable of revving to 19,000 rpm.
This means wide piston, short stroke. Benefits? MASSIVE MULTIPLE VALVES for AIRFLOW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caparo_T1#Powertrain
How does this car make 575 NA horsepowers out of 3.5L? RPMS. Torques max at ~310ft/lb.
I think you guys are chasing something impossible due to the integral nature of the vr6 head. modification won't do it. it's not a horsepower head unless it's force fed air with a turbo or supercharger. force feeding air negates intake/flow design inequities.
I don't have experience like you guys do. I'm not an engineer, and I don't work at a high tech machine shop with flow benches and custom piston machining and everything else that goes into it. I am just looking at real examples and how they solve the HP question. maybe you'll get 230hp. Good luck. no flamers just prove me wrong.


----------



## LiquidCrystalDisplay (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (German_Aesthetic)*

:YAWN:


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Stuff (German_Aesthetic)*

I think you got your point across, and I love the web cites. You must realize that your 2nd cite is the handiwork of Bildon, the founder of this thread. I'm sure he was able to improve somewhat over those original flow characteristics. 
I guess one solution might be a new 12V head casting ( _a la_ Eurospec). Anyone think that's feasible?


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: Stuff (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_I guess one solution might be a new 12V head casting ( _a la_ Eurospec). Anyone think that's feasible? 


That's been discussed here as well. Too much money http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
and kinda goes against what's trying to be accomplished with this project.....making the most HP with the factory head and block by optimizing and addition of new parts and technology.


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (James 93SLC)*

wow, the thread got archived. gotta bump it


----------



## 03turbo916 (Feb 24, 2008)

*Re: Stuff (nick526)*

This thread is 2 years old, I am VERY interested in seeing whats going on, have the guys at Bildon been able to break the 250 barrier, are they any closer to 275? Two years...at this rate by the time we see some dynos all the 12v's will be at the crusher or something? I kow it takes time and alot of R&D but hey, I am an impatient kinda guy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: Stuff (03turbo916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *03turbo916* »_I am an impatient kinda guy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

definitely don't subscribe then







they've made a lot of progress but they've got customers to satisfy and races to win, so the project doesn't get a lot of time budgeted to it.


----------



## 03turbo916 (Feb 24, 2008)

*Re: Stuff (nick526)*

Yeah I know, and it will be worth it when its all done. Just that, I am in the process of doing my NA build right now, trying to squeeze every bit out of it and this thread would be awesome if it had some stuff completed. Oh well, quality takes time and I can always rebuild if what they do turns out to be the way to go. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: Stuff (03turbo916)*

Man, there is still talk of VR6 CFM!
Sure, it's not the best, but runs some numbers using your favorite CFM calculators.
If they get anywhere close to 200CFM, that is plenty to hit some of their power figures. 
I am still looking forward to the outcome of this build. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Neal H (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: Stuff (billyVR6)*

200 cfm at 28'' (which translates to ~ 120 cfm at 10'') is possible, just. This is bare port flow without an inlet manifold. It is more than likely to then have some losses from valve in tests and some bolt-on loss from the inlet manifold. Around 180 is possible (known) on a head with the lower inlet on and inlet valve in.

_Modified by Neal H at 2:30 PM 7-31-2008_


_Modified by Neal H at 2:38 PM 7-31-2008_


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

I fear this project is doomed, there simply isn't enough inlet valve area available for the target power figure.
Any head mods will need to find some way to increase this area as far as possible, even if it means offsetting the valve guides or fitting smaller exhaust valves.
Shrouding is a given with this engine design, even the standard sized valves in an enlarged bore are seriously shrouded by the cylinder wall.
Raw CFM will not solve these problems, careful attention to gas speeds, flow direction and swirl are a far better approach.
The reason hairier cams don't work is because this engine can't turn more RPM if it can't breathe properly.
Higher compressions create additional ignition problems together with the poor combustion chamber shape, maybe twin plugs can help alleviate this. It would be a hideously complex if not impossible conversion though.
This engine is however perfect for supercharging once reasonable attempts have been made to optimise its breathing.
I really like the pistons Bildon have designed with Wossner, they're the best news for this engine in ages. I'll definitely be fitting some with better rods at my next teardown in preparation for fitting a small Rotrex charger.


----------



## Neal H (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

To a certain degree yes, I agree, especially if the target is 275 whp. As a benchmark, some of the most powerful 2v per cylinder engines that I have seen reliable data for with the same 42 mm inlet / 36 mm exhaust valve size combination that you can fit in the 12v are around 90 bhp per litre on a Fiat twin cam. This output extrapolated comes to 270 hp for a 3 litre at the fly, not the wheels. Now from the flow data that I have seen, the VR6 head flows a similar amount of air on the inlet side, but struggles to match the Fiat on the exhaust resulting in some pumping loss. This almost certainly rules out fitting smaller exhaust valves as this will restrict the overall flow of the head. Currently, my best guess for this, and please remember this is just an estimate at the moment, is around 260 hp at the flywheel.


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (Neal H)*

Neal, Fiat twinks are hemi heads, they have no shrouding issues at all. Taking this further, Alfa NORD 2 litre twinks commonly have 46mm Inlets and can easily break 100 bhp per litre in race tune.
I disagree strongly about exhaust valve sizes, you could comfortably keep the standard VR6 exhaust valve at 34mm if it helps with fitting a larger inlet. Pumping losses are irrelevant compared to fresh charge loss when using longer duration high overlap camshafts, in this case a smaller exhaust valve can actually help offset this loss. 36mm exhaust valves are a big waste of time and money.
But look at the inlet valve areas:
Total VR6 Inlet valve area with 39mm Inlets = 7167 sq. mm. (Standard)
Total VR6 Inlet valve area with 42mm Inlets = 8313 sq. mm. (Big Valve)
Total VR6 Inlet valve area with 44mm Inlets = 9123 sq. mm. (Ultimate)
A 44mm inlet would give an increase in area of ~10% over 42mm, this is where any more power is to be found.
This might get you to 275bhp with racier cams but nothing else will.
With 42mm valves fitted 250bhp is all you'll ever get.
Axiomatically engine capacity is largely irrelevant to power, the overbore only matters for the purposes of squeezing in bigger inlet valves, with stroking what you gain in torque you lose in rpm.
"There's no replacement for displacement" = Luddite marketing moronism.


----------



## Neal H (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

Now I am by no means an expert on this matter, and am merely repeating what I have been told and read from a very reputable race engine builder, however, the effects of shrouding from the cylinder bore are overstated. 
The reason I am using a Fiat as a yardstick is because the valve size set up is the same as I am using on my VR6, and because my VR6 head was offered up to the same flow bench by the same person, I am comparing apples with apples regarding flowbench data.
Regarding the exhaust port flow, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I am struggling to get more than 66% E to I flow where my target is 70% to keep pumping loss to a minimum. With the standard valve size, this will be nowhere near the required level and the car will be quite literally choking. As an example I cite a couple of 16 valve heads, a Vauxhall XE and a Cosworth designed Ford unit. The Ford Cosworth comfortably outflows the Vauxhall XE on the inlet side, mainly due to the Ford 36mm inlets as opposed to the 34mm on the Vauxhall. However, from a power output perspective, the Vauxhall is proven to be the better design, putting out mid 280's bhp compared to 260 from the Cosworth. Why is this, especially considering the impressive inlet flow? It has less than 63% exhaust to inlet flow ratio, and this shows on the dyno, and on the track. Good luck with your standard 34mm exhaust valves.
I agree that more inlet valve area is crucially important in developing more power, however, it cannot be considered in isolation. It may be possible to offset bore the valve guides and squeeze an extra 1mm on inlet and exhaust, I don't know. Also you must consider that you will have to run a bore which may be beyond the safe limits of the block.


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (Neal H)*

Neal, clearly we agree about the overstated shrouding issue.
However I fail to see the problem with your exhaust/inlet valve relationship, you already have 73.5% valve area differential which for any road tune is more than enough.
I am unclear as to why you fitted larger exhaust valves when you say you cannot get exhaust port flow high enough to keep up with them.
I am also unclear which Ford Cosworth engine you are referring to since well developed N/A YB conversions usually slay Redtops, however both of them will exceed 300 bhp given the budget, check out some of the new Duratec builds, they're well over 300 bhp now as well.
However 63% valve area differential is bang on the money for a full race engine, so not sure what problem you're referring to.
I agree about considering anything in isolation, but total inlet valve area is so fundamental and dominant as to overwhelm almost any other consideration when looking for substantial power increases.
I wouldn't worry about those pumping losses, you'll save at most 3 bhp over the standard exhaust valves and only if you can get the ports to flow well enough.


----------



## #1 S T U N N A (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

up


----------



## BTEK Fab (Feb 8, 2007)

Bill, great thread on the development of a potentially great motor. I built an intake manifold based on Helmholtz resonance theory which yielded 8whp and 21wtq on a 12V with 83mm wiseco 10.5:1 and a mk4hg, port matched head and recut oem valves and seats. used 268schrick cams and springs. if you are interested in testeing the manifold the car will be down til next spring. let me know!
-Bryan
the gain was over a port matched oem mk3 mani


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (VR6-3.0)*

Bryan, I'd be interested if you could provide some further information about your custom inlet as it is an area I am looking to improve upon right now.
I recently acquired a spare plenum/runner assembly for the purposes of experimentation, I intend to leave the injection runners in place and make a new plenum using the spare for basic dimensions and for the flanges etc.
Although I'll be using a pair of Catcams hybrid profile camshafts (High torque exhaust profile with high lift inlet) your plenum looks to have nearly the grunt of the VSR/VGI conversion for a major difference in value!


----------



## need a vdub (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

I am guessing this is stuck, or just not going to happen. 







Bildon Motorsport last posted at 11:28 AM 6-28-2008 to VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (in 2.8l 12v VR6 Engine Forum)


----------



## BTEK Fab (Feb 8, 2007)

the manifold was actaully posted on here a long time ago by someone else and people just made fun of it because it wasn't the norm, but i sacrificed looks and fitment(under the hood) for functionality. the pics that were posted were of an unfinished product because i was in a rush to get to motorstadt. also it was on a car that claimed 241whp, but i regret to inform everyone that those numbers were not accurate, the car was dynoed at a shop that soon became infamous for higher than normal numbers and closed soon after...the current numbers with a stock ECU and a SAFCII are 213whp and 200.5wtq. the key to the manifold i designed was to get the volumes of each part of the manifold correct, rather than just the runner lengths


_Modified by VR6-3.0 at 6:11 AM 8-28-2008_


----------



## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-3.0)*

was it tha the manifold that was on the black mk3 that had individual runners running over the top of the valve cover to t plenium by the firewall?


----------



## BTEK Fab (Feb 8, 2007)

yah, but the plenum is actually right on top of the front of the valve cover










_Modified by VR6-3.0 at 7:59 PM 8-27-2008_


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (VR6-3.0)*

Interesting, are there bellmouths on each runner inside the plenum? I see that all the runners are externally the same length, do they protrude inside the plenum to compensate for the different port lengths or is this a red herring due to the differing port volumes? I can see that the plenum would flow superbly from the throttle body, what are the approximate dimensions and does it increase torque right through the rev range? Maybe a nice ceramic coating would tart it up and help insulate from engine bay heat.
Why would people make fun of something which obviously works, I don't understand the 'more show than go' mentality at all, I guess those are the people who keep firms like HKS in business.
Thanks for sharing, it obviously beats the standard scrapper comprehensively.


----------



## BTEK Fab (Feb 8, 2007)

if you look closely at where the runners are welded to the manifold they are bell mouthed there, the picture doesn't show it well but is a substantial lead in to the runners. the runner s are all different lengths, because the manifold is actaully canted slightly towards the passenger front. it was very difficult to get the lengths correct, and they are by no means perfect, but they are close. my attempt was to get the volumes from the throttle plate to the combustion chamber as close as possible, like i said, it is not perfect but it is as close as i could get it. this was my first attempt at a manifold and it is stainless steel, because it was free, i am going to be working on an aluminum one soon. here is the dyno sheet between the ported mk3 mani and the tubular mani with a stock chip. red=ported mk3 blue=tubular


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-3.0)*

Wow, the numbers don't lie. Good work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Brendan


----------



## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-3.0)*

yea thats the one, i do remember this mani getting "lit up" on here a while ago. I think most of it was to due to the unearthly high es power it was said to make. (240whp or somethin like that) I always thught a setup like this would make much more broader torque due to the long runners and small plenium making for a killer stree engine. Props on the numbers and nice work for the first attempts at making a piece like this







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BTEK Fab (Feb 8, 2007)

keep in mind that was the torque curve with the stock ecu, and according to my notes it was with DRC 260's not the schrick 268's


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (VR6-3.0)*

Is Bildon even looking at this thread or doing anymore work on the 12v VR6?


----------



## VRTT (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

Havinging the tobular manifold shown above, I'm curious how more hp can be achieved with my 288's spec cams. Have you thought about selling a product like this for the public? Is any else excited about the dyno chart?


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

What surprises me is that more people aren't getting their head flowed and having John Dourgherty(DRC's) make cams that best utilize the flow of their stock,P&P, or P&P'd BVH. I would have done that but was running out of money and time. For like $450 I believe he will make custom cams and again if you send him flow numbers on your head he will make a pair of cams that matches your head. I figure once someone does that then get a chip making company Unitronic, GIAC, C2, etc. to make a custom chip that matches the cams and flow numbers. I think that might be a different path that could utilized. Hell it couldn't hurt.


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

There just isn't any way forward with this engine. The packaging considerations have completely overwhelmed any power potential. VR6 12v' simply won't respond to conventional cam and headflow wisdom. It has absolutely NO motorsport applications so no-one has bothered to try and get it to 100 bhp per litre since it is too difficult.
However it can and does make for an excellently flexible and powerful road car engine if treated accordingly. Area under the curve is where it's at for road use, and there are plenty of well designed cams for it from Schrick and Catcams among others but beware of overcamming (288 indeed).
In a perfect world you fit a port optimised big inlet valve head with a mild cam upgrade to a well built 3.0 litre bottom end, a high torque manifold/plenum with a decent 6-2-1 tubular exhaust manifold and system and full stand-alone management with wideband. Use a lighter flywheel, organic clutch and a stronger 5-speed trans with ATB diff, fit better suspension and brakes and drive it hard. That should give you 225bhp (NOT whp!) and will pull like a train from tickover.


----------



## stealthmk3 (Nov 30, 2007)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sepulchrave* »_There just isn't any way forward with this engine. The packaging considerations have completely overwhelmed any power potential. VR6 12v' simply won't respond to conventional cam and headflow wisdom. It has absolutely NO motorsport applications so no-one has bothered to try and get it to 100 bhp per litre since it is too difficult.
However it can and does make for an excellently flexible and powerful road car engine if treated accordingly. Area under the curve is where it's at for road use, and there are plenty of well designed cams for it from Schrick and Catcams among others but beware of overcamming (288 indeed).
In a perfect world you fit a port optimised big inlet valve head with a mild cam upgrade to a well built 3.0 litre bottom end, a high torque manifold/plenum with a decent 6-2-1 tubular exhaust manifold and system and full stand-alone management with wideband. Use a lighter flywheel, organic clutch and a stronger 5-speed trans with ATB diff, fit better suspension and brakes and drive it hard. That should give you 225bhp (NOT whp!) and will pull like a train from tickover.

Are you retarded??








You Need to Read a thread before you make silly comments like this...
For one, Your not the first person to realize the horrible flow characteristics of the 12v.
Secondly, These guys are attempting a challange to be able to show what they are capable of with this motor. Do you realize how many golfs/jettas/cabr....(VOLKSWAGENS), have a VR6 undertheir hood?? its a uniquely designed motor that is legendary for its enginiering and i commend these guys for doing what their doing not because its the newest hottest trend or engine design, but because its a timeless motor that is the straight work horse of VW.
Stop pretending you know what your talking about with your part for part mod list of what you would do, and go buy a 1.8t . Vr peeps will rep their engines


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (stealthmk3)*

Jesus, just trying to stimulate some discussion, get off your steamroller already.
I've read the whole thing and plenty more besides, it's a nuisance having to pick through so many fanboi ****poasts which offer no insight or useful information but I persevered.
You may not know what I'm talking about but I wouldn't pretend otherwise.








I had a VR and went as far as I could. I simply wanted to see if anyone else had any original ideas about this, thanks to Bryan above I now have some hard data about his original plenum design.
Care to contribute?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

I think that if you can't make 200whp with a bone stock bottom end, small cams, a good head and a lot of 'simple stuff' it's not worth going any further anyway.


----------



## Sepulchrave (Aug 5, 2008)

Please, spare me the Dynojet BS.
I work in Europe and here all we do is tune 'European Compacts' using calibrated DIN figures. I have run a 1.6 litre 16v rally engine on the Dyno which made just over 200 bhp, the customer took the engine away, fitted and ran it then had a rolling road tune to check the mapping only to find that the printout said it made MORE power at the rollers than at the flywheel when it left. Needless to say the customer and I had a good laugh about this.
200whp is close to 235bhp. This from an otherwise standard engine rated at 174PS when new (171.5bhp). I hardly think you'll be getting more than 60 bhp (nearly 36%) from the mods you describe!
As for simple stuff, ALL reciprocating Otto engines ARE simple stuff and ALL of them respond to the same basic tuning principles, it's the variation in tunability which separates 'good' engines from 'bad'. The VR is a 'bad' engine for tuners, in fact there aren't many of it's contempories which are much worse to be honest. A well sorted N/A 2.0 16v ABF will knock it into a cocked hat for less money and is much lighter. However I do like the VR's character and flexibility and it sounds great.
Bear in mind I work mostly with four cylinder multivalve engines between 1.0 and 2.2 litres which are all naturally aspirated, the VW AGU 1.8 20 valve engine mentioned above is particularly poor for N/A applications due to the very small inlet valve lifters which dramatically limit inlet cam profiles for high output use so it gets turbocharged, but again the venerable ABF is even better when turboed because of it's better design.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

I totally agree that UK rolling road numbers are 100% bs, followed closely by the 1/4mi times the cars with 'big' power put down.
A Dynojet 248c is a pretty standard dyno here, and my numbers are SAE corrected. DIN correction puts the power higher, as does STD and uncorrected. They're a better tool for comparisons, but power to the wheels is what matters, I don't care what's at the crank as things DO get lost along the way.
Stock setups dyno around 150-155whp on that same dyno. I don't contest that I could have lowered some of the drivetrain losses in the process in addition to actual power increases.
Run my et/mph through any drag racing calculator and it puts the power right around 220hp (crank). I think that's reasonable to assume around 10% losses in the drivetrain. All on a stock bottom end and mild cams. Can't argue with ET, as that's the end result.
I am one of the few that's tuned an ABF in the US and on a stock motor with just an intake, header, exhaust and standalone we made 156whp. Just about what a stock VR6 makes on the same dyno. Sure you can argue weight until you're blue in the face but it is what it is. It's going to take more work then where I'm at now to produce the same power from that engine, period.
I've also tuned one of the few 20v N/A motors here and it put out 193whp at the same dyno. Finally getting into mildly built VR6 territory on that one. Lets just say it was more complicated and costly then my current build. 
In summary, if you can't get around 220hp from a well sorted stock bottom end VR6 you're doing something wrong.


----------



## 98ginster (Dec 20, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

any updates?


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: (98ginster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *98ginster* »_any updates?

x2


----------



## Switawi (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_
x2

Heavens ta Murgatroid! x3 even.


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Switawi)*

I think Bildon has given up on the VR6 thing for now.


----------



## 8project4 (Jul 23, 2006)

don't kill me and eat my remains but has anyone messed with 95.9mm crank with 85mm pistons or is this thread trying to keep the stock stroke? i found a guy on here with a 3.2 vr (eurospec shortblock), but didn't know what kinda hp it was putting out. i was thinking about starting a thread if anyone knew what kinda gains would be made. stock 2.8 vs stock 3.2 (2.8 w/r32 crank). i know there would be a lot of mathematics there but any first handers? peace and love 12v s


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Sepulchrave)*

I heard a rumor that the old 2.0 16v ABF was originally tuned from the factory to have 170hp at the crank but that put it way too close to VR6 territory so they de-tuned it a great deal.
What they should have done is kept it at 170hp and put the 2.9l VR6 in all the VR6's done a bit more P&P from the factory with slightly bigger valves and pushed it up to 200hp at the crank. That would have made a nice line up for VW back then.


----------



## 8project4 (Jul 23, 2006)

*Re: (8project4)*

on a side note. what about straight cut gears to reduce drivetrain power loss.


----------



## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (8project4)*

Hell yeah noise be damned.


----------



## 8project4 (Jul 23, 2006)

mmmmmm love that f**king whining tranny sound.


----------



## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (8project4)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kermani (Jul 1, 2008)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*

I guess this really has been abandoned. That is really sad...


----------



## 8project4 (Jul 23, 2006)

that's why I'll bump to keep of alive


----------



## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: (8project4)*









275 not going to happen http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (race-shop joe)*























































































































































































































































**dead**


----------



## dubstylee22 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: (WannabeVWguy)*

this is the first ive heard of this forum and i just read through some 60-some pages to find out its dieing!!!!!!! its like really bad SAW XII film. Come on. See im hooked now, forget a super charger/turbo charger. We need to figure this S*** out. Its horse S***. We all own VR's and we know how bomb they are but I wanna see what these things can really do!




























S*H*I*T


----------



## Daviticus (Apr 30, 2007)

Damn shame.
Ah well, there's always boost and 288* cams.


----------



## steve-o 16v GLI (Jun 26, 2005)

*Re: (Daviticus)*

maybe its god telling us to buy a turbo. this is sad one way or another the vr6 will never fail to put a smile on my face NA or FI


----------



## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

fun read, over three days, learnt a lot....I think.



_Modified by elmer fud at 11:31 PM 11-3-2008_


----------



## kermani (Jul 1, 2008)

*Re: (elmer fud)*

If nothing else, there is a lot to be learned about head flow.


----------



## dubstylee22 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: (kermani)*

Im gonna call these guys, hahahaha tell them they wasted four days of my life, hahahaha get their asses in check







hahaha. OR!!!!!! we could all make our own PVC pipe mani and test em our selfs hahahaha. NOT


----------



## croniccorrado (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: (dubstylee22)*

there not done yet. they probably haven't updated this. they did have a thing about this on there wed sit. i dont know if its any more current then this, but you could look.


----------



## Hassenpheffer13 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: (kermani)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kermani* »_If nothing else, there is a lot to be learned about head flow.

Agreed


----------



## dubstylee22 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: (Hassenpheffer13)*

true dat. i guess ill just subscribe to this thing and wait!?


----------



## brian500 (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: (dubstylee22)*

if you wanna pick someones brain call hugh from Hi Speed Motorsports
he had a vr6 track car 250hp at the wheels and if you think i am Bs 
then call him!!!


----------



## dubstylee22 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: (brian500)*

any forced induction!?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bildon Motorsport)*

Bildon Motorsport last posted at 11:28 AM 6-28-2008








Is Bildon motorsport even existing anymore?


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

A fun read, but a bit anticlimactic at the end...
So what were the final flow bench #s here?


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Back from the dead bump... any updates?


----------



## stevevr6 (Dec 13, 2002)

*Re: (VWChimera)*

Bump


----------



## lil8v (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: (stevevr6)*


----------



## kermani (Jul 1, 2008)

*Re: (lil8v)*

Yup no way that this is going to happen. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (kermani)*

heh... I'll be happy if I come anywhere near 180whp with my new rebuild...275? that would be downright crazy. A street-able 250? equally crazy.


----------



## kermani (Jul 1, 2008)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

Uh true story sir. You need to bore and stroke the hell out of the block. Then you have to worry about the head the breathes like a gasping SARS victim... Yeesh.


----------



## exjnv (Jun 8, 2006)

someone email them
bump


----------



## kermani (Jul 1, 2008)

*Re: (exjnv)*

Done. I'll post a replay. If I get one...


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (kermani)*

I e-mailed them a couple weeks ago about a cam question, (not related to this thread) no reply. They must be busy bees right now, they have replied to other questions before pretty quickly.
Brendan


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*

I just exchanged an email with Bill a few days ago. Things are stalled just due to economy/lack of funds. Not really a surprise, I'll see if I can get him to post up all that he knows in the meantime.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Man that's a bummer. I hate it when a company that knows their stuff can't do what they want to, due to funding.








Brendan


----------



## littlejohnsVWheads (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

wow good luck with this. i've seen a lot of people try to do it without a turbo or supercharger.
my last vr6 was a 3.1L project--it was honestly a nightmare, and just hit 205-210whp with ported head/manifold, no sai or smog control, no cat, 2.5inch exhaust, 268 cams (tried the 288s but not so good for street), JE forged 11:1 compression pistons, chromoly rods, and lots of other stuff i'm forgetting.
i'm not saying it can't be done, but you have to do a LOT of planning to even get close to your goal.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

It's a great topic, this just doesn't need another 10+ pages of people asking: updates? I think Bill should make a final post with any new information, then have admin lock it up. Then just make a "Round 2" post whenver (if?) this starts up again. It will still be archive accessible, and most of the important information is on Bildon's own forum. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kurty85 (Sep 17, 2007)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

The idea ive been thinking of for the longest time is to separate the runners on a vr6. You have 12 runners total correct? Use 6 for intake and 6 for exhaust. Where the normal intake runners are, 3 are intake and 3 are exhaust. Granted this would require different camshafts, but there is enough room- the 6 intake runners would all come above the valve cover into a plenum. That way you have all short intake intake runners for high rpm and require no compensation on any runners. The camshafts would just have to have different lobes and the engine timed entirely different. Do the intake and exhaust runners like a slant 6 with split manifolds.


----------



## #1~STUNNA (May 4, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_It's a great topic, this just doesn't need another 10+ pages of people asking: updates? I think Bill should make a final post with any new information, then have admin lock it up. Then just make a "Round 2" post whenver (if?) this starts up again. It will still be archive accessible, and most of the important information is on Bildon's own forum. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I agree... let's just hope Bill does make. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (kurty85)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kurty85* »_The idea ive been thinking of for the longest time is to separate the runners on a vr6. You have 12 runners total correct? Use 6 for intake and 6 for exhaust. Where the normal intake runners are, 3 are intake and 3 are exhaust. Granted this would require different camshafts, but there is enough room- the 6 intake runners would all come above the valve cover into a plenum. That way you have all short intake intake runners for high rpm and require no compensation on any runners. The camshafts would just have to have different lobes and the engine timed entirely different. Do the intake and exhaust runners like a slant 6 with split manifolds.

Are you on drugs????
Brendan


----------



## smrtas2780 (Feb 15, 2005)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*


----------



## jaystone (Jun 12, 2004)

*Re: MLS Gaskets (VR SEX)*

watched


----------



## psychobandito (Sep 10, 2009)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*

His idea would work.
people used to run reverse flow Buick Nailheads back in the 50's and 60's. Same with Ford Flatheads.
The exhaust ports were larger than the intake, so cams were made to reverse the valves.
pretty simple actually.


----------



## daloztprophet (Apr 14, 2009)

*Re: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp (Bildon Motorsport)*

i have a head with pitage let me know if your willing to take it ill donate it to you guys just let me know what the process is and its yours.


----------



## catapultkid (Aug 10, 2008)

i have in no way read all 68 pages, but (just thinking outloud), can you pull a vacuum on the exhaust side? opposite of turbo, still would be N/A and could possibly be implemented into the system without the use of a pump. idk....go ahead and flame


_Modified by catapultkid at 5:27 PM 10-7-2009_


----------



## kurty85 (Sep 17, 2007)

*Re: (catapultkid)*

The buick nailhead is almost the exact thing i was thinking. The way I would do it on a VR6 is take all the 6 long ports and attach intake runners to them into a v8 style manifold above the valve cover. Then take all the 6 short ports and attach exhaust piping to them. The only problem is heat obviously, but the audi 10v quattro had intake and exhaust on the same side, so it is doable. Swain tech or wrapped pipes would be fine. This way we have long intake ports for good torque still. You could even reverse it to have high rpm ports and exhaust ports that would scavenge the cylinder very well from long length. After this is complete, timing is the issue. Yes it would require a new set of cams, but something worth doing is never easy. I will be undergoing this conversion on my next vr6. My other thought is a way to manufacture 4 bolt main caps for a vr6, or side sandwich plates to make faux 4 bolt caps simply to stop crank walk.


_Modified by kurty85 at 10:49 AM 10/9/2009_


----------



## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: (kurty85)*

You're forgetting one major obstacle, the current exhaust valves are significantly smaller than the intakes, so you would end up with lopsided flow.


----------



## kurty85 (Sep 17, 2007)

*Re: (PapioGXL)*

You would have to change 6 of the valves to the opposite size- might have to weld up the combustion chamber and refit a new valve seat sized for small or large size. Exchange the intake and exhaust valves...It's doable- We welded up an xr350 head that had 4 bad valves and it looks brand new with new valve seats and valves. It wouldn't be as hard as you think especially with a 24v vr6 which has a lot closer sized valves to each other


----------



## Bug_racer (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: (kurty85)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kurty85* »_ My other thought is a way to manufacture 4 bolt main caps for a vr6, or side sandwich plates to make faux 4 bolt caps simply to stop crank walk.

_Modified by kurty85 at 10:49 AM 10/9/2009_

Im working on that


----------



## kurty85 (Sep 17, 2007)

*Re: (Bug_racer)*

Just thought about it, here's the simplest idea to prevent crank walk:
Make a main bearing cradle like an rb26dett,rb25,4g63,etc...
One large main bearing cradle will not shift and will allow higher rpm easier- Im willing to bet you could reach 10k rpm easily- yes it would be a screamer but all we are looking for here is 250whp.


----------



## daloztprophet (Apr 14, 2009)

*Re: (kurty85)*

this is the most official all motor thread that has been shut down?! i have a crapload of questions and no answers....any one?! i have a 2.8 vr6 bored out to a 2.9 using the euro pistons to have that official euro vr movement along with a polished crank arp main studs head studs and all other fastners along with tt268 cams heavy duty springs lightweight lifters a chip and a mk4 headgasket....with giac software for the cams how much do you guys think ill be putting out? its a complete rebuild everything in the engine is brand spankin new and if any of you all dare put this baby down ill have to slap a biggg mon turrrrrrrbo in da dam ting


----------



## psychobandito (Sep 10, 2009)

you're probably not much past 210 at the wheels, if that. intake? Exhaust?


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (kurty85)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kurty85* »_My other thought is a way to manufacture 4 bolt main caps for a vr6, or side sandwich plates to make faux 4 bolt caps simply to stop crank walk.



crank walk isnt even a problem with these motors. hell you have guys putting down 800hp on stock rods. if it was a problem, you could just use existing billet main caps.


----------



## daloztprophet (Apr 14, 2009)

*Re: (psychobandito)*

cold air spectre b.s and i plan to cut a scoop on the passenger side fender in order for cold air to reach the engine and intake. hm...exaust....maybe tt i hear they got nice sounding exausts.
210 huh? now what?! slap the turbo and call it a day and be called a cheater? how can i get more out this beast without slappin the turbo on just yet...?


----------



## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (daloztprophet)*

to get much more past what you already are doing, you will spend big bucks for minimal returns. if you want past 250 hp, turbo is the only way. just have to ask yourself if it is worth it to spend as much all motor and have someone with a mild turbo destroy you in every way for the same price if not less. 400whp turbo is pretty much standard for a vrt with hg spacer and arp bolts with a decent turbo. if you like all motor thats cool just have to make sure you arent the kind of person who keeps wanting more which you seem like you already are.


----------



## daloztprophet (Apr 14, 2009)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*

yea definitely so definitely slappin on the turbo how many lbs do you think i can push out of it with the head spacer and the current set up i have now. and around what do you think the whp would b around? i guess turbos the only way to go....sux


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (daloztprophet)*

If I see anyone else post the word turbo in this thread it's getting locked.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hyperformancevw* »_turbo is the only way.

Turbo is the only way to get past 250whp with this engine?


----------



## jaystone (Jun 12, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Pretty much. 
The amount of time, effort, and $$$ to get 250whp out of a VR6 naturally aspirated with no power adders would be stupid. Take half of that cost and build a turbo motor, and you'll have twice the power output easily. 
Back on topic though, this thread is about IF and HOW...not necessarily why or at what cost. 
I'm building an N/A 2.9L for the street with relatively high compression (10.5:1), cams, port work, etc. In the end I'm hoping for 200whp, but I'm not getting my hopes too high! The motor will be strong enough for boost (just need to throw in a headgasket spacer) so I'll have that option down the road should the hunt for power get me.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jaystone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jaystone* »_
The amount of time, effort, and $$$ to get 250whp out of a VR6 naturally aspirated with no power adders would be stupid. Take half of that cost and build a turbo motor, and you'll have twice the power output easily. 


Seriously, people, stop. There are reasons to build a high hp n/a motor, like racing in a class that does not allow you to 'go turbo.' If you have nothing valuable to add to this thread, such as new information and new test data, stop posting and let it fall back to the archives.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (jaystone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jaystone* »_Pretty much.

I totally disagree.


_Quote, originally posted by *jaystone* »_ this thread is about IF and HOW...not necessarily why or at what cost.

I know exactly what this topic is about.
As usual, here is another N/A topic getting littered with turbo talk.

http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

not trying to disrespect you guys in any way i think its awesome what you guys are running all motor. the only reason i was directing him toward turbo is because more than likely he is not trying to run in an all motor class and probably doesnt have the dedication like you guys have. i have seen your cars run and it is cool as hell but most people dont want to deal with the hassle and would rather bolt a turbo on, make 350whp and call it a day. most dont care to further the development of all motor vr6 tuning. the only reason i would direct anyone toward turbo is because nobody ever compares apples to apples. most people want to know "how can i beat my buddies LS turbo civic with my vr6" so all motor is not an option for them with a full interior stock body jetta. most dont want to race all motor cars because they dont care. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to you hardcore all motor guys gettin it done!


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## vdubxcrew (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*



> most people dont want to deal with the hassle and would rather bolt a turbo on, make 350whp and call it a day!


Wow, you make that sound so easy and reliable. Let it be known in the real world that even with 350hp, that doesn't always translate to a fast car. Alot of allmotor cars with not a whole lot of work can post up as good or even better times than a turbo'd VR. And they don't have to worry about nearly as many things to fail on them in the process.


_Modified by vdubxcrew at 6:56 PM 11-18-2009_


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (vdubxcrew)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubxcrew* »_
Alot of allmotor cars with not a *whole lot of work *can post up as good or even better times than a turbo'd VR. And they don't have to worry about nearly as many things to fail on them in the process.

not trying to argure here on this thread. we all know the advantages and disadvantages of each set up. all im saying is you can make more power easier and if you buy quality parts, you can have a very reliable set up either way. most dont want a straight drag car either way so if you take a stock body jetta glx and max it out all motor, a basic turbo kit will still win. again im done i dont want to clutter this thread so i'll leave it at that. and again i have lots of respect for the all motor guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by hyperformancevw at 11:02 AM 11-18-2009_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*

Nah, my point was this topic is about...
"let's get 275whp from a naturally aspirated VR6"
and not...
"I want 275whp, please weigh my options for me..."
There is a huge difference.
I totally agree that most do not care about furthering development for a naturally apsirated VR6, but that is *EXACTLY* what this topic was about. 
If power was the main goal and someone wanted to get 275whp from this engine I would be the last guy telling them they need to do it N/A.








I still totally disagree with the comment about a turbo being the only way to get 250whp.


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (daloztprophet)*

just start a new thread to talk about your goals and wants. i appreciate you defending me, but dont disrespect the all motor pioneers please


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (hyperformancevw)*

To anyone, just pick your poison; Naturally Aspirated, Nitrous, Supercharger, and Turbo. Any one of those alone will get you 250hp. What route to take and how much effort someone wants to put into it to achieve this goal is different story, one that is best kept for another topic. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Oct 7, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_To anyone, just pick your poison; Naturally Aspirated, Nitrous, Supercharger, and Turbo. Any one of those alone will get you 250hp. What route to take and how much effort someone wants to put into it to achieve this goal is different story, one that is best kept for another topic. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Exactly, and for the sake of this thread let's keep it on topic please w/o the bickering and other debate. 
Thanks.


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## daloztprophet (Apr 14, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*

came to my senses dave's right....i apologize to all you all motor heads including myself for giving up and turning to a turbo....went to my friends shop....took my "ported head" put it on a flow bench and ironically he had a honda civic head on another flow bench as well.....i almost puked....its trully sad a honda head has way more flow than a 12 v vr6 head....when it comes down to it...the vr6 head really has no air flow compared to the other heads its like WTF but yea....i spent heavy bread on my head...and the other head was pretty much stock...only way is by getting another head with more ports or making your own head or calling it a day and going with the 24v.....good luck on your quest to becoming a mechanical engineer...







that may be why bilton never replied to any of us...i was even providing a free head for research and development...even pmed them offering funds....really about my business and do have money to help out but they just gave up i guess.....supercharging a turbo on my 12v 2.9 and using nitrous to cool it down keep a look out for the build....threads coming soon lets see how this baby runs and or pops....


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## Bug_racer (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: (daloztprophet)*

First post for 2010 in this thread 
whats the general thoughts on the set up ?
best Intake set up - Schrick or SRI 
best exhaust - Extractors or ported stock 
Best management - Chip or stand alone
Best Camshaft design - 262, 268 , 276 , 288 or bigger 
Best Valve size - 1mm O/S , 2mm ?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ratdub (Jan 17, 2005)

just read this whole thread over the last couple of days...very good read, learned a lot (as much as i can from my computer chair)...


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## Redlineman (Dec 1, 2015)

Back from The Grave;

This thread is long dead, but lives on as a great resource. Having recently acquired an AFP Mk.IV VR6, and being interesting in modding it for more power, I have read the entire thing. Beyond the vaporization of the thread principle, it is a huge shame that much of the documentation photos, videos, and image data was not preserved somewhere for future reference. Reading it is only half the story. We visual types are like that.

Who is left from the old days that can still do decent head work on these buggers? No machine shops left in my area!


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

:wave: Ill see you Bildon for 275, and raise the bar to 300. Back from the dead, carrying the all motor 12v torch to the 300 hp mark.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Curious what kind of work you have done?

I've only owned one VR6 but am a serious NA enthusiast and have had this thread saved for years as a great resource. Honestly, I'd have to go back and do a lot of reading to recall how this all played out...

On a somewhat related note: I recently picked up an Audi B5 with the 12v AFC V6, probably the most unloved Audi engine. I bring this up because it's also a 2.8L 12v VAG motor of the early 90's that creates the same 172 crank HP as the VR6. And yet, with some moderate development the Audi 12v can break 300 Naturally Aspirated crank HP. I'll go out on a limb and say it is largely attributable to the port design which are similar at a glance to the VW ABA engine, if not slightly better.

No disrespect intended to the VR6, but just sharing it as a comparison point from a similar period of time and within the same manufacturer. The VR6 is a heck of an engine in terms of packaging though!


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> Curious what kind of work you have done?
> 
> I've only owned one VR6 but am a serious NA enthusiast and have had this thread saved for years as a great resource. Honestly, I'd have to go back and do a lot of reading to recall how this all played out...
> 
> ...



So for the past 3 years i have been trying a bunch of different things between fuels, intake manifolds, throttle bodies. For those that dont know, I have a 12v, stock long block. ( pistons, valves, ports, pistons, rods etc.) Only modification that has been done is DRC 268 cams. The original setup made 205 hp, 194 tq, that was with a 2.9 intake, giac chip, 3 in. straight exhaust. 

The current setup is a custom equal length runner intake manifold, with a 90 mm acufab throttle body. The big difference is the car is now on standalone, and is ran on M5 fuel. it currently makes 223hp, 206tq, still a stock long block. 

Going through threads, posts etc. I understand why but also dont understand why certain things were done or not done. If the goal all along was to make 275 hp, why would you not run more compression? Also fuel choices, all of these All Motor builds i have seen, AT MOST were ran on 110 race gas but most were ran on pump. I gained almost 30 hp just swapping fuels. :beer: Lastly, WHY WOULD YOU NOT RUN STANDALONE? What purpose to go through the process of all this r and d, and limit yourself to a chip tune? Personally, nobody that i have seen, has really truly given this a run for its money to truly see what it will take on an all out build. I just see the excuses that it simply cant be done.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

You raise some interesting points, I don't disagree.

Any pictures of your intake manifold? The head design of the VR is great for compactness, but makes intake design tricky. I'm also curious if you evaluated going with individual throttle bodies vs. a plenum design with the single TB?

What are you doing on the exhaust manifold side? I recall reading that it is very difficult to make gains through equal length primaries for some reason...

Just an idea: Is your standalone capable of sequential fueling with the ability to adjust port trims? I've always wondered if the "next step" in squeezing out power lies in placing an O2 or EGT probe in each primary tube and fine-tuning the cylinders independently. With the VR's variation across runners, there may be power to gain here...


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> You raise some interesting points, I don't disagree.
> 
> Any pictures of your intake manifold? The head design of the VR is great for compactness, but makes intake design tricky. I'm also curious if you evaluated going with individual throttle bodies vs. a plenum design with the single TB?
> 
> ...


I will upload some pictures of my intake manifold. I have thought about going ITB's, but I've had good luck with traditional intake, throttle body setup. I drag race my car, so going down track I actually make positive pressure in the intake manifold. Itb's would also work the same way as long as you have a properly designed airbox. 

My header, well... its the forbidden Raceland header everyone trashes. Once my new motor goes in, then its getting a custom hood exit header. But until then, the Raceland stays. As for the 02 or egg setup, that is all going on in the new header for individual cylinders. That way I can read each cylinder and make adjustments as such. 

Tuning wise, Paul Kiernan is behind all that, i know how to hit the + and - button, that's almost it.:laugh: But individual cylinder data and control i think will help a lot.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

I'm going off memory, but I recall that a plenum intake does have the potential to make more power than individual throttle bodies. Perhaps it is the ability to capture & utilize one additional pulse to increase VE? However, the challenge for most is the R&D it takes to try different sizes and shapes that allow you to eclipse the performance of ITB's.

How do you know you are running positive pressure in the plenum? Do you have a MAP sensor there for the standalone?

Now I'm curious about your future hood exit exhaust! Are you thinking of individual length tuned primaries to open air, or will you run any collectors?

If you run the idea of individual O2 sensors, I am extremely curious what kind of variations you find in the A/F ratios on a "good" batch-fire tune. Will you run six O2's at the same time (that can add up cost) or swap one or two around and do lots of data logs?

Paul Keirnan... NeedaVR6 on here?


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> I'm going off memory, but I recall that a plenum intake does have the potential to make more power than individual throttle bodies. Perhaps it is the ability to capture & utilize one additional pulse to increase VE? However, the challenge for most is the R&D it takes to try different sizes and shapes that allow you to eclipse the performance of ITB's.
> 
> How do you know you are running positive pressure in the plenum? Do you have a MAP sensor there for the standalone?
> 
> ...


Yes thats needaVR6 on here. And also correct, running a map sensor on the standalone. I do not run a maf. So i had a 70 mm throttle body before 3 inch inlet with a 6 inch velocity stack, and i found with that, on the track i would typically be around 102 kpa on the map, and the baro would be 100 kpa going down track. Since i swapped to the 90 mm throttle body and 4 inch inlet with a 12 inch velocity stack, the map dropped to around 101 kpa, with 100 kpa on the baro. When i tested before with the smaller throttle body, the air was better, so that could be the change and why had more kpa. although the car went 11.89 with a 1.58 60' on the smaller tb to 11.88 with a 1.60' on the bigger tb and in worse D.A. But either way, i made 4 more hp, with the bigger throttle body on the dyno. Same pressure, but more volume. (sounds good in my head)

The hood exit, i have been having a hard time finding someone thats willing to build one for under a million dollars. I am completely aware fab work is expensive. The plan is do to an equal length 1.75" primaries, 3-1, then down to a 2-1 collector, keep the firing order in the collectors to try and scavenge as much as possible. 

As for the data, i will more than likely just run egt probes as i am currently on Alcohol and will be blending nitromethane on the new motor. I can get enough data on cylinder temps, to tell me if its lean or rich, and just use an o2 in the collector. 


In the end, i have seen years of talking and no actions when it comes to physically trying different things. R and D is all good, when you do real world testing. Put something together, dyno tune it, race it, see how it reacts. Like i said before, just on a fuel swap i picked up almost 30 hp. Granted i have almost $2,000 in my fuel system just to run alcohol, so thats a big turn off for a lot. But its the challenge to find 2 hp here, 1 hp there, 5 hp by doing this. :screwy: I may just be crazy or stupid. not sure which one yet


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Here is a video from the spring time, Paul and me doing some testing at NGP. 220hp 205tq.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoOHDliYh0U


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

2 different dyno sessions from this year. 1st one when it made 220hp, that's the video I posted. 2nd is the 223hp.









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

That's a good looking equal length manifold, I assume you have bellmouths in the plenum? And I can see why you generate some positive pressure in the plenum with that enormous velocity stack and short ram!

And aside from the squiggles at the end, that's a good looking dyno plot. :thumbup:


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> That's a good looking equal length manifold, I assume you have bellmouths in the plenum? And I can see why you generate some positive pressure in the plenum with that enormous velocity stack and short ram!
> 
> And aside from the squiggles at the end, that's a good looking dyno plot. :thumbup:


 No bellmouths in the plenum. Its actually a pretty crude design, the lower ports are not 100% matched to the plenum, and the lower to head are really bad. Lots of over hang, so im sure airflow could be greatly improved with some port matching. There are billet lowers that i have been looking at to make a new lower to adapt to this intake. Just have my hand in a bunch of other things currently, dont want to make to many changes at 1 times. Then you dont know what works and what doesnt. The squiggly lines are my fault, im not the best at running a dyno  I hit the button to late. Paul and me have been fighting an issue with this thing where it wont rev over 6900 rpms so thats why the graph stops there. 



This is all just trial and error for the new motor i just got together for it right now. It's a 3.0, 13.5:1, +3 intake, +1 exhaust, titanium springs, retainers, abs lifters, 298 cat cams, all arp hardware. The goal is to build a high compression motor, with all shelf parts that you and anyone else can purchase without custom work and see what itll do. Unlike other builds, im not gonna skimp on tuning, and or fuel. No point in building a high compression race motor if you are only gonna run it on pump gas with a generic chip tune. Depending on how it reacts, i also have a 3rd block and head ready to go for some REAL R and D. :laugh:


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Did a little more testing this weekend at the track, best back half mph I have been able to go is 23 mph back split. Friday i went 25 mph, and 27 mph back split.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Just following up with this and carrying the torch, went out and did some testing this past weekend with the new motor. Its a 3.0 12v thats at 13:1. The car ended up going best E.T. of 11.25 @ 118 mph, but went best MPH the pass before of 120.89. What is the take away? Here is what i have come up with.

We all know that the head is garbage. We all know that the air flow is junk. There is no denying that. How can we improve the air flow? Positive Manifold Pressure. Keeping a + manifold pressure will assist in pushing air through the non existent combustion chamber, and therefore increasing efficiency ten fold. Its not exactly rocket science, and not exactly the fix. The head that is on my car is an old EIP built head, with VERY MINIMAL port work. It has +3 intake valves and stock exhaust valves. Im running a custom equal length intake manifold, 90mm tb, 3 inch inlet to a 12 inch velocity stack in the front bumper. How is that relevant? Well down tack, Im essentially making boost pressure in the intake. This is nothing new, as i said not rocket science, any tuner can explain this. What I saw, i picked up 1 mph to the 1/8 mile, BUT i picked up 11 mph out the back. When we dynoed the car, I only picked up 6 hp on the dyno. SAME tune as i ran on the dyno, didnt touch it on the 1st pass went 120.89 MPH. Do the math, that correlates to 289 HP on track. Obviously all cars will pick up power on the track, the math calculations are never perfect, but only close. But the dyno numbers in no way work with the MPH @ my weight.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Glad to hear the update, your progress is impressive and your explanation makes sense. So oddly-enough (but not a surprise) the key to squeezing the last little bit of naturally aspirated power from the 12v head is in-fact to build positive pressure in the intake tract. It sounds funny that way.

So I will throw this out as a purely curious question: You mention the new block is a 3.0L right, is that from an overbore with high-comp pistons, was there any change in crank stroke? Technically, increasing displacement requires a corresponding bump in airflow, because without it you'll get the bump in torque but your peak horsepower is going to move down the dyno chart a little bit, right? So I'm just curious, _have you ever considered de-stroking instead_? In theory, the decrease in displacement would raise the peak horsepower to a higher RPM point given the airflow limitations of the head. I guess the real question would be whether the sacrifice in torque for the HP gain would result in faster times...

Just thinking out loud.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> Glad to hear the update, your progress is impressive and your explanation makes sense. So oddly-enough (but not a surprise) the key to squeezing the last little bit of naturally aspirated power from the 12v head is in-fact to build positive pressure in the intake tract. It sounds funny that way.
> 
> So I will throw this out as a purely curious question: You mention the new block is a 3.0L right, is that purely from an overbore with high-comp pistons, was there any change in crank stroke? Technically, increasing displacement requires a corresponding bump in airflow, because without it you'll get the bump in torque but your peak horsepower is going to move down the dyno chart a little bit, right? So I'm just curious, _have you ever considered de-stroking instead_? In theory, the decrease in displacement would raise the peak horsepower to a higher RPM point given the airflow limitations of the head. I guess the real question would be whether the sacrifice in torque for the HP gain would result in faster times...
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


So the stroke was the same. I just went with 83.5mm supertech 13:1 pistons and a mk4 headgasket. (compression should be 13.5:1 with headgasket? correct me if im wrong) NOW WITH THAT BEING SAID, I am actually in the works of building another motor... but with a 3.2 crank. It would not destroke it, but create a longer stroke. A stock 3.2 crank in a 2.8 block will make it a 3.0, so if you bore the block to a 3.1l, you will have a 3.3l 12v.... that old saying no replacement for displacement? Since you have to run a custom piston anyways, we are going to just simply see how much compression we can squeeze out of it. I know colin back in the day, the 12v that was in the rabbit was a 3.1l and it was 14.5:1. Can we get 15:1? The head on that motor will also have +3 intake and +2 exhaust valves, ported runners and a set of 317 cat solid cams. That is the current project since the motor in the car has performed so well. 

I think, purely me thinking out loud here, the reason that it only made 6 more hp on the dyno, (besides my lack of tuning knowledge) with the higher compression comes the more turbulent air in the compression chamber which in turn actually chokes itself up. When you add the positive pressure in the manifold, it pushes the air through the combustion chamber (naturally) therefore the engine becomes 10 fold more efficient and it just lights up in power. How true that is? idk we will see.


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## Ultramagnus0001 (Jun 22, 2006)

Ajfrassetto said:


> I think, purely me thinking out loud here, the reason that it only made 6 more hp on the dyno, (besides my lack of tuning knowledge) with the higher compression comes the more turbulent air in the compression chamber which in turn actually chokes itself up. When you add the positive pressure in the manifold, it pushes the air through the combustion chamber (naturally) therefore the engine becomes 10 fold more efficient and it just lights up in power. How true that is? idk we will see.


I think you're right, like a tunnel ram runner, but I think the high compression and runner would help each other. The right duration and timing might give you a good swirl for the flame propagation.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Ultramagnus0001 said:


> I think you're right, like a tunnel ram runner, but I think the high compression and runner would help each other. The right duration and timing might give you a good swirl for the flame propagation.


I agree, and that's one thing that I'm gonna do with the new motor is run the schimmel adjustable cam gears, that way I can adjust the cam timing. 

As for the higher compression, I think with the intake being in a state of vacuum, the compression chamber has to much turbulence. Once you get it out of vacuum, it's a night a day difference in performance. That's why 12vs always do poorly on the dyno.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Ultramagnus0001 said:


> I think you're right, like a tunnel ram runner, but I think the high compression and runner would help each other. The right duration and timing might give you a good swirl for the flame propagation.


This is the intake setup on my car for reference.
















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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Ajfrassetto said:


> ...
> I am actually in the works of building another motor... but with a 3.2 crank. It would not destroke it, but create a longer stroke. A stock 3.2 crank in a 2.8 block will make it a 3.0, so if you bore the block to a 3.1l, you will have a 3.3l 12v.... that old saying no replacement for displacement?
> ...


I feel like we side-stepped the point I was bringing up, and I'm really curious if it's something that you have (or would) give consideration. You actually put a spotlight on the crux of the issue at the end of your quote with "there's no replacement for displacement".

So, unless I missed something earlier in the thread, I think the consensus was that the 12v head is ultimately the single biggest limiting factor in getting more naturally aspirated power with this engine, right? And the problem with displacement is that as you increase it you are inherently demanding more airflow through the intake and exhaust tracts, or else you will see the RPM where you hit peak hp move down the chart because the head cannot flow enough air. Now, for a street-driven motor the increase in torque from displacement is nice, and the cost of moving peak power to 5400 vs. 6200 (simply for example) is a worthwhile trade-off.

For that 1/4 mile of distance, it might be worthwhile to see if getting more more combustion events to the wheels will get you to the finish line faster than an increase in torque. If the 12v head flow is really the limiting factor, I'm essentially making the argument that de-stroking (let's say to 2.5L) so you can turn higher RPM might be a work-around to the limited head flow. Gearing becomes more and more important as the powerband gets narrower, so that's a factor too.

Of course I don't have any skin in the game so I can sit here and bench race all day while you're the guy going out there and making things happen! I love NA engines and probably mentioned that I've got a 2.8L 12v V6 Audi, which is the red-headed step child of virtually all VAG engines. So my comments are just food for thought and I'm rooting for your success.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> I feel like we side-stepped the point I was bringing up, and I'm really curious if it's something that you have (or would) give consideration. You actually put a spotlight on the crux of the issue at the end of your quote with "there's no replacement for displacement".
> 
> So, unless I missed something earlier in the thread, I think the consensus was that the 12v head is ultimately the single biggest limiting factor in getting more naturally aspirated power with this engine, right? And the problem with displacement is that as you increase it you are inherently demanding more airflow through the intake and exhaust tracts, or else you will see the RPM where you hit peak hp move down the chart because the head cannot flow enough air. Now, for a street-driven motor the increase in torque from displacement is nice, and the cost of moving peak power to 5400 vs. 6200 (simply for example) is a worthwhile trade-off.
> 
> ...


Sorry, didnt mean to jump around your point. Yes, I agree with you, and I think that the increase in volume of air (more displacement, and compression) actually reduces airflow and creates turbulence. Possibly destroying would help with that? But your still looking at a volume issue because volume is relative to power. But by destroying, possibly make a piston that could direct airflow better? Therefore increasing efficiency? 

As for a street driving car, I dont have a lot lot of data on different intakes/Intake manifolds yet. I am currently putting together a rabbit that will be NA with a 12v. I'm looking at running the Skunk intake plenum with the nubworks adapter and creating a ram air in the front. But that's for a later project. 

As you stated, yes, as you demand more airflow, aka power, the power band moves down. From what I have seen, this is just my data, that is caused from lack of airflow, the intake being in a state of vacuum. Once it goes positive, for me usually 3rd gear, the efficiency goes up, and the motor comes alive. I still am not sure how I could replicate on the dyno for theory proving purposes, but the data on the track proves it. 

For refrence purposes, my motor is really nothing fancy. All shelf parts, nothing custom.

3.0 13.0:1 with mk4 h
Stock rods
+3 intake stock exhaust supertech valves
Supertech springs and retainers
Aba lifters
298 hydro cat cams
Ported head
Raceland header
Custom equal length intake with 90mm tb
Waterpump delete and electric wp
Weldon 2015 fp and 1000cc I.D. Injectors
Ls coil on plug conversion 
Ms3 pro ultimate ecu standalone
Ran on vp M5 fuel


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

For conversational purposes, and the point to keep the torch going, made some more progress on my quest to make 300hp this past weekend. I went and did some testing on the dyno at NGP, made 262hp 228tq. The graph shows what the drop and spike in power, it was very odd. It honestly felt like the motor had a 75 shot of nitrous on it at like 5500 rpm. I tried to tune that hump out, but nothing would get the drop out.

I made a couple changes since last time it was on the dyno, and the last time it was on the track. Changed to a different, colder plug, upgraded plug wires and removed the lightweight lifters and installed stock 12v lifters.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Been making a little more progress this year. I freshened the motor up over the winter and picked up 5 hp since last year. Last week I installed adjustable cam gears and made am adjustment to cam timing and broke the 270hp barrier, along with 240 ft lbs/tq. Made a couple passes earlier in the year before the cam gears, the car trapped 121.73 mph, if you do the math, trap speed to weight its making 305 hp on the track. We are finally making some progress and really believe the 300hp barrier will be broke soon.























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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Awesome progress!

Another of my off the wall thoughts: I notice your PCV system looks to have two lines off the valve cover, going to a catch tank that vents to atmosphere, is that right? Have you considered adding negative pressure to the crankcase? There are multiple methods, one of which could be a port into the exhaust header, or adding a vacuum pump.

Supposedly, drawing about 15-17" can gain in the realm of 3% power. Oh, and are you running a dry sump or wet sump oil system?

One way to gauge whether it's worth exploring: Is there a way to plumb a pressure sensor onto the catch can, so you could data log if there's positive pressure building up through the rev range?


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> Awesome progress!
> 
> Another of my off the wall thoughts: I notice your PCV system looks to have two lines off the valve cover, going to a catch tank that vents to atmosphere, is that right? Have you considered adding negative pressure to the crankcase? There are multiple methods, one of which could be a port into the exhaust header, or adding a vacuum pump.
> 
> ...


I have looked into vacuum pumps, i just have not got around to running one yet. When I run one, I just need to vent the vacuum pump piped into a bigger catch can. From what ive read, its more likely to pull oil so itll fill the catch can up more. Wet sump is another avenue that i have looked into. Big thing with the dry sump is just money... its so expensive because only 1 company makes one and its overseas in Germany. its also not cheap, around $3k last time i checked. I would imagine that you could gain a couple hp from deleting the oil pump and lighten up the balance shaft. Im probably more than likely going to just balance and lighten up the balance shaft. One last thing that I plan on running is a windage tray. Keep the oil from splashing back up on the rotating assembly.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Keeping it short and sweet. Made 290hp last night.









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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

Ajfrassetto said:


> I have looked into vacuum pumps, i just have not got around to running one yet. When I run one, I just need to vent the vacuum pump piped into a bigger catch can. From what ive read, its more likely to pull oil so itll fill the catch can up more. Wet sump is another avenue that i have looked into. Big thing with the dry sump is just money... its so expensive because only 1 company makes one and its overseas in Germany. its also not cheap, around $3k last time i checked. I would imagine that you could gain a couple hp from deleting the oil pump and lighten up the balance shaft. Im probably more than likely going to just balance and lighten up the balance shaft. One last thing that I plan on running is a windage tray. Keep the oil from splashing back up on the rotating assembly.


What


Ajfrassetto said:


> I have looked into vacuum pumps, i just have not got around to running one yet. When I run one, I just need to vent the vacuum pump piped into a bigger catch can. From what ive read, its more likely to pull oil so itll fill the catch can up more. Wet sump is another avenue that i have looked into. Big thing with the dry sump is just money... its so expensive because only 1 company makes one and its overseas in Germany. its also not cheap, around $3k last time i checked. I would imagine that you could gain a couple hp from deleting the oil pump and lighten up the balance shaft. Im probably more than likely going to just balance and lighten up the balance shaft. One last thing that I plan on running is a windage tray. Keep the oil from splashing back up on the rotating assembly.


What Ring and Pinion where you running for your fastest track times? what transmission setup? I've always wanted to do the 3.94 R&P, but haven't had the spare change for that.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

VR6 GLX Man said:


> What
> 
> 
> What Ring and Pinion where you running for your fastest track times? what transmission setup? I've always wanted to do the 3.94 R&P, but haven't had the spare change for that.


I run a 4.24 r/p with a peloquin diff with kptuned gears.

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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

Ajfrassetto said:


> I run a 4.24 r/p with a peloquin diff with kptuned gears.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Thanks! 4.24 has great pick up from what I've read over the years.


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## djhedges (Aug 17, 2009)

I was just thinking about this thread the other day because I'm contemplating moving the Corrado to a different class which would open up engine options. I recalled this thread had some good info about the VR6 head being starved for air. There's a really interesting self study program #212 which talks about the variable intake manifold found on the R32s. The short version if I understand correctly is pressure waves are created as the intake valves open and close. The manifold is designed to leverage those waves as they bounce back off nearby intake valves into a collector to help more air flow into the cylinder.


http://www.vaglinks.com/docs/ssp/VWUSA.COM_SSP_212_Variable_Intake_Manifold-VR.pdf


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Yes- and that manifold works quite well.

Somewhere, many years ago- I had a screenshot of dyno runs comparing it in the open vs closed positions all the way through the rev range.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

djhedges said:


> I was just thinking about this thread the other day because I'm contemplating moving the Corrado to a different class which would open up engine options. I recalled this thread had some good info about the VR6 head being starved for air. There's a really interesting self study program #212 which talks about the variable intake manifold found on the R32s. The short version if I understand correctly is pressure waves are created as the intake valves open and close. The manifold is designed to leverage those waves as they bounce back off nearby intake valves into a collector to help more air flow into the cylinder.
> 
> 
> http://www.vaglinks.com/docs/ssp/VWUSA.COM_SSP_212_Variable_Intake_Manifold-VR.pdf


Ive never seen that study, that is pretty good information right there.


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

Time slips from this past weekend. Is it safe to say we have broken a the 300hp threshold? The potential is here to make more. I see no reason 350 could not be had.
















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