# Camber does not eat tires! - The last word on this subject.



## Dyzee (Mar 19, 2005)

I'm posting this here as a quick reference to camber and how it does not negatively effect your tires as everyone around here makes it seem. Also, I'm going to use this as a guide to link people to whom just don't get it.

This was originally posted by Mrhealtoe from healtoeauto.com 
This topic is one of the most frequently asked on one of our major customer sites. So, rather than continue to post wordy replies over and over again, we are making it a tech article!
Do I need a camber kit? The short answer is: If you are worried about your tires, then no. If you are more anal about your car and want all the numbers correct, then yes. For the long answer, keep reading.
For Hondas, a camber kit is a debatable issue. When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will.
Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don't wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key.
When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension.
Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.
But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!
Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it vertical on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha...it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you turn it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it's side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.
Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It's why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car.
The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).
The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I AM COMPLETELY SERIOUS when I say that, as an authorized Tein distributor, 9 times out of ten we do not sell a camber kit. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2". I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure.
Camber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjunction with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?
Here are some images to illustrate what I mean.
In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there: 








Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside...that's camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed.
In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned.








Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire.

Other things of note!
Front tires always wear faster than rear ones. The wheels back there are just free wheeling. There is little weight on them and the is no load/torque on them. Traction is not an issue and wear is nearly non-existent. If you are going to get a camber kit for your Honda, you only really need it in the front.
Alignment shops are like body shops. Most of them suck, but they are a necessary evil in our world. The trick is to find a good one you like. I know a lot about alignments because I did them at work for a while. I wish I had an alignment machine JUST so I could do my own now!
Negative camber is visually apparent from outside the car. This is a big deal to some people. Likewise, I am not trying to tell people that lowering the car will not result in negative camber which is out of spec. All I am saying is that is does not have a big impact. Really, to fix the looks and alignment numbers, you'd need a camber kit. Some people just have different priorities.


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## vaultpsu (Aug 4, 2005)

This looks like a FWD honda post and not a AWD TT post. Have you ever looked at the TT's suspension? lol


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## cdougyfresh (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (vaultpsu)*

umm yea im pretty sure you cant align the rear end of a TT without a camber kit. 
A for effort?


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (cdougyfresh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cdougyfresh* »_umm yea im pretty sure you cant align the rear end of a TT without a camber kit. 
A for effort?

Correct and due to the trailing arm design - changes to our rear camber affect toe as well - and which due to the limited toe adjustment in the rear - once you've lowered the car - you can't change toe back to spec without adjustable control arms. Some need adjustments on both top and bottom to get toe back into spec. 
It is true however that toe does have an affect on tire wear - but so does camber depending on the suspension design and the movement of the wheel during it's suspension travel.


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## Dyzee (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (cdougyfresh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cdougyfresh* »_umm yea im pretty sure you cant align the rear end of a TT without a camber kit. 
A for effort?

Yes. Although at the end of the day, people still say "camber is eating my tires". All I'm trying to say here is, TOE is eating tires. A camber kit is the solution to our cars because the camber and toe act as one entity, you can't change one without the other.


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## TTracing (Mar 20, 2008)

*Re: (Dyzee)*

Gee, and all that time, I thought that not enough camber ate the outside of my fronts tires...
And all it was, was my TOE!... 
Steve, why did I buy those camber plates??


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## cdougyfresh (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (TTracing)*

I'll be seeing first hand how much lowering it changes camber / toe here soon.. have my coilovers & adjustable control arms sittin in boxes right now waiting for F'ing tax season to be over already.


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (TTracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TTracing* »_ Gee, and all that time, I thought that not enough camber ate the outside of my fronts tires...
And all it was, was my TOE!... 
Steve, why did I buy those camber plates??
















Just curious - what specs are you running alignment wise on the Track TT?


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## TTracing (Mar 20, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Well, it's kind of a "secret d'usine". Don't tell McLaren or Ferrari...
Camber: 3 deg front ( but we're changing to 2.5), 1.5 rear
Toe: 0, front and rear. It comes from Steve.
Then, I have those beautiful Avance Design coilovers, with 3 choices of compression rate, f &r, and 3 turns of adjustable rebound, f& r. Thanks, Steve, for the help.
On top of that, we're installing this week, those gorgeous hollow Hotchkis sway bars , adjustable f & r, stiff, stiffer or stiffest...


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (TTracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TTracing* »_ Well, it's kind of a "secret d'usine". Don't tell McLaren or Ferrari...
Camber: 3 deg front ( but we're changing to 2.5), 1.5 rear
Toe: 0, front and rear. It comes from Steve.
Then, I have those beautiful Avance Design coilovers, with 3 choices of compression rate, f &r, and 3 turns of adjustable rebound, f& r. Thanks, Steve, for the help.
On top of that, we're installing this week, those gorgeous hollow Hotchkis sway bars , adjustable f & r, stiff, stiffer or stiffest...










Thanks - I just set mine with -1.2 in the front with .06 toe and -1.8 in the rear with .06 toe. I run the 21mm rear bar set of the softer setting. I don't have the camber plates so -1.5 is the most I can go up front. I'm gonna run this at Sears Point for the first time this weekend - and see how it is. 
I'm curious why you went 0 toe - as most people I talked to said to do just a slight bit of toe for a bit sharper turn in.


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

wow thats a long read


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## TTracing (Mar 20, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I think it just make sense for racing. Toe + or - slows the car in the straightaway , where you make the time.
Yes, if you want to play more with the settings, you need camber plates and rear arms, but, hey, one step a'the time...
Sears point, you lucky http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'm at Sebring this Sat., sounds repetitif...
Take pics










_Modified by TTracing at 7:40 PM 4-10-2008_


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## TTRU (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Camber does not eat tires! - The last word on this subject. (Dyzee)*

Dyzee, you flunked geometry didn't you?


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (TTracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TTracing* »_ I think it just make sense for racing. Toe + or - slows the car in the straightaway , where you make the time.
Yes, if you want to play more with the settings, you need camber plates and rear arms, but, hey, one step a'the time...
Sears point, you lucky http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'm at Sebring this Sat., sounds repetitif...
Take pics









_Modified by TTracing at 7:40 PM 4-10-2008_

You are right - does make sense. Have fun at Sebring!


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## GOFASTT (Mar 3, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

More camber up front... less rear for the TT- Joe i'm seeing a pattern here...back to the alignment rack!


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (TTracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TTracing* »_ Gee, and all that time, I thought that not enough camber ate the outside of my fronts tires...
And all it was, was my TOE!... 
Steve, why did I buy those camber plates??
















Cause our camber plates look cool!








To answer Joe's question, toe out improves initial turn in but suffers a bit with mid corner grip. You run a little toe out when you have a stock car that doesn't have many adjustment options. Having a solid camber plate and little deflection at the control arm in addition to higher levels of grip up front will achieve all the turn in one would want without having to add toe out.
Steve


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (GOFASTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GOFASTT* »_More camber up front... less rear for the TT- Joe i'm seeing a pattern here...back to the alignment rack!










I know - and I just threw down major $$$ for an alignment















The major difference is street vs track. I also went a bit overboard on rear camber as a result of increasing front. Looks like that was a mistake. Oh well


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## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_
Cause our camber plates look cool!








To answer Joe's question, toe out improves initial turn in but suffers a bit with mid corner grip. You run a little toe out when you have a stock car that doesn't have many adjustment options. Having a solid camber plate and little deflection at the control arm in addition to higher levels of grip up front will achieve all the turn in one would want without having to add toe out.
Steve

Thanks for clarifying that for me. Looks like next time i'll max out front at -1.5 or so and go 0 toe and probably match that in the rear.


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So what would you recommend for a autocross setup alignment wise?I am finishing my coilover install this week and will be getting the car aligned and corner balanced.It will also see street duty some.


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## SupaWhiteTC (Mar 3, 2005)

I went to school for Automotive Technology for 3 years and took Steering and Suspension classes. YES Camber DOES wear your tires, Toe can wear your tires but it wears evenly accross the whole tire and leaves the tire rough and shredded not smooth like your picture which IS camber wear. Almost everything you posted above is incorrect, camber and caster are your number one tire wearing specs. Also positive camber will make the car pull badly as well as negative caster and also both will wear your tires. Although negative camber won't really hurt much it will just wear your tires. When you lower it your car will normally toe out in front but not nearly enough to even come close to wearing your tires.


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## vaultpsu (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (SupaWhiteTC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SupaWhiteTC* »_I went to school for Automotive Technology for 3 years and took Steering and Suspension classes. YES Camber DOES wear your tires, Toe can wear your tires but it wears evenly accross the whole tire and leaves the tire rough and shredded not smooth like your picture which IS camber wear. Almost everything you posted above is incorrect, camber and caster are your number one tire wearing specs. Also positive camber will make the car pull badly as well as negative caster and also both will wear your tires. Although negative camber won't really hurt much it will just wear your tires. When you lower it your car will normally toe out in front but not nearly enough to even come close to wearing your tires.








YEAH OP, WHAT HE SAID!!! thanks for the info bro!


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