# Transmission Discussions (5 speed, used on W12 Phaetons)



## Jarfman (Dec 25, 2004)

*Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter?*

My w12 has been to my local dealer 3 times because the yellow emmission light has come on. THe first time they told me the gas cap was misaligned, which was not possible. The secoond time they reset "something". Now I am told that the car will be out of service for 10 days while the get a new torque converter and replace it. They say it is a very lasrge job and cannot get it completed sooner.
I am not worried abou the time. I am worried that they may not know what they are doing. Does anyone have any experience with this issue?
Thanks


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (Jarfman)*

My experience is with a V8. The light came on a half dozen times and was traced finally to a solenoid for an air injection pump.
They said the pump was failing to turn on intermittantly.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (Jarfman)*

Hi John:
The emission light (MIL, malfunction indicator light, previously called a CEL, or check engine light) comes on when there is the possibility (not a certainty) that something in the US EPA mandated emission control system is not working as it should. For your info, Phaetons sold elsewhere in the world have emission control systems, but no MIL.
The MIL is not to be confused with a second light that indicates that something is wrong with the engine.
I have no idea why your light is coming on, however, I have never heard of any relationship between the torque converter and the MIL before. Normally, the MIL illuminates if the fuel cap is loose (due to the possibility of gasoline fumes escaping into the environment), or if the fuel is not being completely (cleanly) burned in the engine.
I would also be worried if someone wanted to replace the torque converter due to the CEL illuminating. Perhaps you could ask your VW dealer to tell you what fault code is showing up when they perform a diagnostic scan of the car. Then post that fault code here, we can have a look at it.
I don't think there is anything wrong or inappropriate with you telling the dealer that you do not want to have the torque converter replaced at this time. Once, the guided fault finding (GFF) system that VW technicians use to determine service action plans suggested that the generator be replaced on my W12 - the Phaeton tech and I looked at each other, and we both said 'no way'. It turned out (later on) that there was nothing wrong with the generator at all.
Michael


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

I've had the check engine light on on my W12 for a while. My dealer replaced a thermostat to try to clear the problem, but it came back a couple of days later. I brought it back in, and now they've told me the same thing the original poster experienced - the problem is that the torque converter is sending fault codes which triger the check engine light.
The car is at The Autobarn in Evanston, which probably has more Phaeton service experience than any other dealer in the US (there were 2 other W12s in the shop when I was there!), so I'm willing to believe they know what they're doing. Besides, this is under warranty, so it's not costing me anything besides having to drive a loaner Passat for a few days.


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## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (bobschneider)*

Good luck---I hope it is only a few days!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (Jarfman)*

John:
I have just found out that there is a technical bulletin (TB) out that describes a problem that causes the CEL (Check Engine Light) to come on as a result of a problem inside the torque converter. Funny thing is that the driveability of the car is not compromised - the car still works OK - but the torque converter needs to be replaced in order to turn the light out.
That TB is already here on the forum - it is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents', or you can go directly to it by clicking here: Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01). The number of the TB is 32-06-01, and the title is "MIL Illuminated, DTC 17125, P0741 Stored In Transmission Fault Memory, No Driveability Concern".
Be aware that although it is not particularly difficult to change a torque converter on either a V8 or a W12, there are two essential prerequisites that must exist in order to do the job properly without totally screwing up the car:
*1)* The VW dealer must have the special lift (like a huge operating table) that is used to lower the transmission from the car. If it is a V8 Phaeton, they must also have the special VW tools (fittings) that mount to the bottom of the transmission to allow it to fit properly on the table.
*2)* The technician must be able to read and follow directions!!!! This is not one of those "Oh, I'll just dive in and figure it out as I go" jobs. You have to print out the directions for removal and subsequent installation of the transmission and torque converter, then you have to actually READ THEM AND DO WHAT THEY SAY - otherwise, you get iatrogenic damage.
For example, after the part has been replaced, fluid needs to be added to the transmission. This is not a simple task - again, you have to print out the directions, read them, and follow them carefully. Have a look at this photo-essay I wrote about how to drain transmission fluid from a W12, and how to re-fill it: Changing Transmission Fluid on the 5 speed (FGE) Transmission. Once you look at that post - which deals only with the simple task of draining and refilling the fluid - you will begin to comprehend why the techs *MUST *pay attention to the written instructions when they change your torque converter.
It might be to your advantage to print that post out and give it to the service manager at your VW dealership. You might also want to mention to him that a VW dealer in the USA had to eat the $16,000 cost of a whole new transmission last year because the tech did not follow directions when doing a torque converter replacement. That might help the tech focus his attention on following directions.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 12:07 AM 2-20-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Also, one last point: NO AIR GUNS and NO ELECTRIC SOCKET DRIVERS during the assembly of any portion of the torque converter or transmission!
Every single fastener on that transmission has a specified torque value, and the torque values matter. Heck, there is even a specified torque value for every one of the 30+ little bolts that hold the transmission oil pan in place. Unless every single one of those little bolts is torqued "just right", the seal will leak. If the seal leaks, it has to be replaced... which means replacing all the ATF ($300 in fluid alone), as well as about 2 hours of work to properly fill the transmission.
This is another reason why all the instructions for both removal (disassembly) and installation (reassembly) need to be printed out ahead of time. Reassembly is *NOT *the opposite of disassembly, plus, all the torque values are listed on the reassembly instructions, but obviously not on the disassembly instructions.
Michael


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for the info, Michael. That sounds like my problem - the CEL was on, but there were no problems with how the car drove. Fortunately, my dealer has a lot of Phaeton experience, so they should know what they're doing.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (bobschneider)*

Aw Snap!
Now I am getting this same fault code on my W12. See my recent remark at the bottom of this post: F265 Map Controlled Engine Thermostat Replacement.
I guess this means we are soon going to have an illustrated post entitled "How to replace a 5 speed transmission torque converter".








At least the light (and whatever is going on inside the torque converter) doesn't seem to affect the car in any way. It kind of appears to me that the fault presents itself only for a second or two when the car is first started up, then the fault goes away... but the CEL stays on.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Just for the record, here is what the fault code looks like:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065
2 Fault Found:
18032 - MIL Request Signal Active (Check TCM for errors too!)
P1624 - 008 - Implausible Signal
Readiness: 0000 0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans
Part No: 3D0 927 156 N
Component: AG5 01L 6.0 W12 USA 1114
Coding: 0000102
Shop #: WSC 02137
1 Fault Found:
17125 - Torque Converter Clutch: Stuck OFF / No Power being transferred
P0741 - 003 - Mechanical Failure - MIL ON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 31: Engine other
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065
1 Fault Found:
18032 - MIL Request Signal Active (Check TCM for errors too!)
P1624 - 008 - Implausible Signal
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems that the one fault in the transmission controller (controller 02) also raises a red flag in controller 01 - the master engine controller - and in controller 31, the 'engine - other' controller.
Michael


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Sorry to hear that, Michael. I hope to have my car back later this week - I'll let you know how it goes


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Michael, how many miles on the clock when you got the fault codes with transmission?


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (Jack Orr)*

Jack, I can't speak for Michael, but mine had around 29K when my CEL came on


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (Jack Orr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jack Orr* »_Michael, how many miles on the clock when you got the fault codes with transmission?

58,000 km - I think that is about 35,000 miles.
One thing that is interesting - the fault appeared three times within two days, but this was when I was driving from Toronto to Chicago and back, and parking the car outside the hotel during a cold snap - temperatures were *well *below freezing, about -15°C (5 degrees American) overnight. Normally, my car is never exposed to those temperatures - I keep it inside at night.
In each of the three instances when the light came on, the car was fully cold-soaked. The CEL light came on instantly when I started up the car, before I even thought about moving the shift lever out of the 'Park' position. I happened to have a diagnostic scan tool with me, so, each time the light came on, I opened up the engine controller to see what the fault code was. The Engine Controller fault code was kind of funny - it said, more or less, "go look at the transmission controller", and the transmission controller fault code was the one shown above. I cleared the fault code, and then drove a couple of hundred miles (each time) without the fault coming back. But, after parking the car overnight and letting it get really, really cold - the CEL came back on again, with the same fault code generated.
So, I am kind of wondering if this might be temperature related?
FWIW, it warmed up today - to just a few degrees below freezing - and the fault code did not come back at any time during my drive from Auburn Hills to Toronto.
Michael


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Michael, the perfect solution to your car throwing these codes appears to be moving to TEXAS!
(Doesn't get near that cold- 69 degrees F outside as we speak)


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

That's odd, Michael. We had the worst cold snap in a couple of years down here, with temps down to around -5F, around the time my CEL first came on. At home, I park my car in an unheated garage which still stays maybe 20F above ambient (judging by the outside temp readout in the car), but I had a few times I had to park outside for several hours, long enough for the car to get down to below 0F.


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## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Cold was not an issue when I had the CEL/torque convertor problem in November/December. We were having a very warm winter in NC. CEL came on and stayed on.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (bobschneider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobschneider* »_That's odd, Michael. We had the worst cold snap in a couple of years down here, with temps down to around -5F, around the time my CEL first came on. At home, I park my car in an unheated garage which still stays maybe 20F above ambient (judging by the outside temp readout in the car), but I had a few times I had to park outside for several hours, long enough for the car to get down to below 0F.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this fault code that supposedly mandates replacement of the torque converter is *a)* spurious, and *b)* related to cold temperatures.
The last thing I want to do is replace the torque converter in my car - for starters, it work perfectly well (seems to convert the torque into forward motion), and on top of that, I don't want to blow my VW dealer's warranty index out the window by needlessly replacing such an expensive part.
I think I am going to go and visit ZF Transmission in Friedrichshafen, Germany next month - they are only about a half-hour drive away from where I live in Zurich - and see what they have to say about this.
In the meantime, I'll get my VW dealer to poll the car for the fault code, and I will ask them to carry out the function-testing of the transmission as required by the two TB's that have been published about transmission function testing (Transmission Function Concerns - includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01). That will cover me in case the torque converter actually fails at some point in the future when I am out of warranty.
I would really, really like to hear from anyone else who has encountered a torque converter problem (fault code) on the W12 powered Phaeton - I think further investigation is needed.
Michael


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (pirateat50)*

My W12 was fixed yesterday. The service manager called me yesterday afternoon, and asked if one of their techs could drive it home overnight, so they could be sure the new torque converter was working right. I said that was fine, and we agreed he'd bring it by my house first thing this morning.
He called me this morning, and said that when they were getting it washed before brining it to me, something went wrong in the car wash and scratched the hood.







So they need to bring it to a body shop to get the hood repainted.
Oh well, at least they fessed up to this in advance, rather than not saying anything and hoping I wouldn't notice


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (bobschneider)*

Well, some interesting insights on this fault code that causes the torque converter light to come on:
The MIL (malfunction indication light) came on three times during my drive from Toronto to Chicago and back last weekend. In each case, the car had been parked outside overnight and it was cold-soaked - well below freezing - in the morning when I started it. The light came on right away after start.
Because I had a diagnostic scan tool with me, I just turned the light off and cleared the codes the first two times. I left the light on (and thus the fault codes present) after the light came on the third time, because I wanted to show the problem to the Phaeton tech at my VW dealership. After he looked at it, he cleared all the codes and the light went off.
I then parked the car in my garage at night - as I normally do - for the rest of the week. No more lights. Last evening, I left the car in the driveway, it cold-soaked to about -10°C (15° American), and guess what - the light came back on. Same fault code in the transmission as before (listed above).
So, now I am sure that the appearance of this fault code is temperature related. I'm going to bring this subject up at Dresden when I go to the factory in April. But, I need some more background information, and help from those of you who have had a torque converter replaced - did the light come on during cold weather?
In the meantime, I am NOT going to replace that torque converter. It is an expensive part, and getting at it requires about 15 hours of labour.
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Michael
You are right, it is temperature related, I think it is caused by the change in viscosity of the fluid with temperature that causes the Torque converter to produce a different pressure when the pumps operate and that in turn cause a tripping of the light.
Sure be neat if you can leave the car in a heated garage overnight and see if the light stays off.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_Sure be neat if you can leave the car in a heated garage overnight and see if the light stays off.

Well, that's more or less what I did all week. The light won't go off by itself, though - it has to be turned off with a diagnostic scan tool. Once it is turned off, it stays off until the fault is detected again.
The fault only seems to appear right away after starting when the car is fully cold-soaked, at about -10°C or less. If the fault code is then cleared with the diagnostic scan tool, even if the car has been running for less than 2 minutes and even if it has not been moved (not taken out of the 'Park' gear position), the fault will not reappear.
Perplexing.
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Bingo ! That proves it. Glad Ii could help.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

*Archival Note:*
For information about transmission concerns on *V8 * powered Phaetons that use the 6 speed transmission, see these posts: 
2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns
6 Speed Automatic Transmission Concerns (V8 Phaetons)
For information about transmission concerns on *W12 * powered Phaetons that use the 5 speed transmission, see this post:
Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter?
Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)

Please do not confuse the two transmissions! There are known issues that affect a minority of the Phaetons out there with both of the transmissions, but the two transmissions are as different as chalk and cheese! All V8 Phaetons have a 6 speed transmission installed, and all W12 Phaetons have a 5 speed transmission installed. There is no carry-over and no correlation between the problems described and solutions provided for the two different transmissions!
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:*
A tangentally related discussion: Engine icon warning light


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (bobschneider)*

Bob, Jay (and the rest of the W12 owners):
I just spent all day at the ZF Transmission factory and overhaul center in Saarbrucken, Germany, discussing the CEL (MIL) light problem that affects the 5 speed transmission in the W12 Phaetons.
I will write up a more detailed post later, but the short answer is this: Don't do anything, other than perhaps turning the light off with the VAG-COM. It is absolutely, positively, 100% totally un-necessary to make any kind of repair to the transmission as a result of this light coming on. In fact, if your W12 transmission was coded to indicate that it was in Europe (as opposed to in North America), the light would not even come on.
It's a friggin' *EMISSION CONTROL* issue, for Pete's sake! The torque converter slips a tiny bit (not noticeable by anything other than measuring instruments) for about 10 seconds when the car is first started if the transmission is very, very cold, this is interpreted by the American government to be 'ineffective power transfer', therefore the car is using more fuel than it should, therefore it is polluting, therefore the law says that the MIL light must be illuminated to stop this crime from happening.
In the ROW markets, Phaetons do not have MIL lights (no cars in the ROW markets have MIL lights), therefore, this "problem" is never announced. Note also that this exact same transmission (the very same part, the very same model number) is also used in BMWs and some Jaguars. Neither the BMWs, nor the Jaguars, nor the ROW W12 Phaetons have any history of warranty claims for transmissions.
More info (far more info) to follow later next week. Unfortunately for me, my car is at my VW dealer in Canada, with the engine and transmission removed, waiting for me to return with precise instructions about how to replace the torque converter. Grrrrrrr.








Michael


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## maz60 (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Jaw drop!!!
Welcome to Wonderland, Alice
This transmission is on double secret probation!!
If you drive one over the border to Canada, will they let you back in the country?
I suspect the replacement torque converter will be just as flagrent a violater of the pollution laws.
Maz


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## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Well, I already have my new torque converter, so I guess I shall keep it.
If the CEL light is on you can't pass emissions test in NC. Heaven forbid we should add a molecule of CO2 to the universe!



_Modified by pirateat50 at 8:51 AM 6-28-2007_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_It's a friggin' *EMISSION CONTROL* issue, for Pete's sake! The torque converter slips a tiny bit (not noticeable by anything other than measuring instruments) for about 10 seconds when the car is first started if the transmission is very, very cold, this is interpreted by the American government to be 'ineffective power transfer', therefore the car is using more fuel than it should, therefore it is polluting, therefore the law says that the MIL light must be illuminated to stop this crime from happening.
In the ROW markets, Phaetons do not have MIL lights (no cars in the ROW markets have MIL lights), therefore, this "problem" is never announced. Note also that this exact same transmission (the very same part, the very same model number) is also used in BMWs and some Jaguars. Neither the BMWs, nor the Jaguars, nor the ROW W12 Phaetons have any history of warranty claims for transmissions.

Michael, I think your anger at the "American government" is misplaced. The "American government" doesn't turn on the MIL light, the software in the car does. 
You state that some BMWs and Jaguars have the same transmission, and in all likelihood have the same issue. However, they don't turn on the MIL light. This would lead me to believe that they do a better job of interpreting the information and not presenting a warning. It's easy to blame the government, but in this case it appears to be the car's fault. 
However, I would also be pretty p*ssed off if my Phaeton's engine and tranny were sitting on the ground for no good reason.


_Modified by car_guy at 8:09 AM 6-28-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (car_guy)*

Hi Steven:
You are correct - I apologize. I often get very frustrated by the two different world standards for automobile certification (FMVSS and EPA vs. EC), and wish that a closer level of global standardization could be achieved, sort of like what exists in the aviation industry, where there is very good co-operation between the FAA and the JAA (JAA being the European certification body), with very, very few differences between the two organizations.
The MIL in particular drives me crazy.
Anyway - again, apologies.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_Michael, I think your anger at the "American government" is misplaced. The "American government" doesn't turn on the MIL light, the software in the car does.

Steven,
As with just about everything, there are three or four sides to this as well.
You're correct -- the "American government" doesn't actually turn on the light. However, "American government" dictates when the light should be on and when it should be off. Perhaps the issue is with how VW interprets those directives?
Having been a service advisor with VW for nearly five years, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt, the MIL was the scourge of my existence. Now that I am with Pontiac/Buick/GMC, I rarely see one. From this, I have to infer the problem actually lies with VW -- either in the components they are using or the software running said components.
However, to Michael's point, there seems to be a "Rest of the World" vs. "North America" dichotomy with respect to how emissions are handled. (Where have I heard those terms before???







) We are concerned with HC and NOx whereas the rest of the free world is concerned with CO2 output -- surely we face the same problems world-wide where emissions are concerned, why the two very different approaches to their management?


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (chrisj428)*

I guess that's good news but is this the only fault that is indicated by the CEL light? Mine has intermittently been on for days and then off for days. I have never had a scan done on it yet to determine the faults and I don't think temperature has had anything to do with it either. Sometimes I'll happen to notice that it is on and stays on for a few days and then I'll look and it will be off. I think I'm now more concerned about trying to get under the car to see if any of the plugs are missing from where it may have had tow chains connected!


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_is this the only fault that is indicated by the CEL light?

If only that were true.
There are a plethora of reasons why this light would come on.
It was the bane of my existence as a VW Service Writer across all model lines. 
Everything from a loose gas cap to a misfire to looking at it cross-eyed as you approach is enough cause to trip a MIL (CEL, SES).


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
If only that were true.
There are a plethora of reasons why this light would come on.
It was the bane of my existence as a VW Service Writer across all model lines. 
Everything from a loose gas cap to a misfire *to looking at it cross-eyed as you approach is enough cause to trip a MIL* (CEL, SES).

That was a good one Chris.








Michael,
Thanks for the good news which means all we need is the VAGCOM to clear that particular error message. In the case of my CEL light episode, since I erased the fault message, it has not been back on so I had to cancel my appointment yesterday with the VW service department.


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## R8ordered (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael:
I certainly would like to purchase the diagnostic tool to which you referred.
Is it possible for an ordinary consumer to obtain one? How costly would it be?
I have a 2004 W12 4 seater in NM, and a 2005 V8 5 seater in NYC.
It would be very comforting to own one, especially in NM where VW Phaeton dealers are rare and distances to Phoenix, Denver or Houston would be daunting if the check engine light were on all the way.
Thanks for any advice or help.


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## R8ordered (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael:
I am unenlightened.
What is the VAG-COM to which you refer for turning off the warning light?
Also, as noted earlier, can one purchase the diagnostic tool to which have referred earlier on?


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (R8ordered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *R8ordered* »_Hi Michael:
I certainly would like to purchase the diagnostic tool to which you referred.
Is it possible for an ordinary consumer to obtain one? How costly would it be?
I have a 2004 W12 4 seater in NM, and a 2005 V8 5 seater in NYC.
It would be very comforting to own one, especially in NM where VW Phaeton dealers are rare and distances to Phoenix, Denver or Houston would be daunting if the check engine light were on all the way.
Thanks for any advice or help. 


R8ordered,
The diagnostics software can be bought directly from the manufacturers at http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/index.html.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (R8ordered)*

There is more background information about diagnostic scan tools (both the VAS 5052 and the VAG-COM) at these posts:
VAS 5051 Diagnostic and Programming Tool
VAG-COM Diagnostic Scan Tool and the Phaeton - reference information 
....Additional Information about the VAG-COM diagnostic scan tool
....VAG-COM Controller Lists from Phaetons (for comparing coding, controller part numbers, software revisions, etc.)
....How to determine controller software version levels using a diagnostic scan tool

Michael


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## maz60 (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (R8ordered)*

Hi Michael,
Your recent post on the shocks reminded me of your transmission issues. 
Did you replace the torque converter? Did the new one get rid of the problem?
Is there a work around to prevent other W 12 owners in North America from being told to replace the torque converter?
Maz


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## ZOG (Apr 5, 2008)

*W12 Transmission Woes*

Sadly, I am now suddenly having transmission issues. Seriously, ran like a Swiss watch until Friday morning on my way to work, when accelerating in low gear, at low speed, the transmission slipped, and then KA-THUNK! I was thrust forward with such momentum I thought someone rear ended me (turns out there was no one behind me). Car slipped all the way to my office, so I drove it very gently. Did the same thing on the way home that evening and dropped it straight to the dealership the very next morning. I was praying it was only some sort of fluid/shortage issue (forgive my naivite) but I was told later on that Saturday that they were getting Torque Converter fault codes, and that the transmission might have to be replaced...uggggh!!! Despite Real Driver warranty, dealership said they can get it covered under the factory drivetrain warranty (53K) They'll be contacting VW for verifications and what comes next. I've read lots of posts that seem to indirectly related back to having the transmission, is there any summary of what I should make sure happens to make sure this is done right? I seem to remember something about if the torque converter is not done properly that it can cause transmission failure...

_Modified by ZOG at 12:42 PM 5-5-2008_


_Modified by ZOG at 12:43 PM 5-5-2008_


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## v1mbrt (Dec 25, 2007)

Might be a leaking transmission oil cooling heat exchanger. Happens sometimes, is a known problem. Will result in cooling liquid in the transmission oil.. 100% oil change should be enough, though the 100% is hard to reach without dedicated equipement.


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## bigwednesday (Jun 29, 2009)

*W12 Gearbox Problems ahh*

I have owned a w12 for two years bought it with 26k on the clock she now has 40 k and it has been a great car until.
After returning from a trip away I started the car and found it difficult to engage drive.
Did go into drive and seemed ok until I put the accelerator down she hesitated clunked and reveved high.
Thought Fluid problem had it checked by dealer no joy it has a fault code 171







14 the dealer wants 3000 plus vat at 17% for a new box and 32 hours at 100 pounds an hour to replace the box.
And yes the car is out of warentty.
Think I might scrap the car for parts as shes worth now 14k repair could be 6 k.
Any one want to buy a w12 engine..


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## bigwednesday (Jun 29, 2009)

*Re: W12 Gearbox Problems ahh (bigwednesday)*

Some history with this car that may be of interest.
The w12 has had a emission warning light come on and off for some time my dealer has told me it may be an air leak at the manifold and to check is an engine out job.
Having read some threads here I am wondering if this is conected to my transmission failure.
Does anyone on the forum know how long it should take to change a transmission by a trainned Phaeton tech?
Fault code 17114 as listed above any ideas .
I love this car but it is starting to break my heart and my wallet.
Any advice will be greatfully recieved.
My car is a euro model and I am in Ireland.
This is the only w12 in Ireland so my dealers experience may be limited.
as


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: W12 Gearbox Problems ahh (bigwednesday)*

AS:
I copied the following info regarding Code 17114 from the Ross-Tech website. Possibly this might be helpful. 
17114/P0730/001840 - Gear Ratio Monitoring: Incorrect Gear Ratio 
Possible Symptoms 
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON 
Possible Causes 
Transmission Fluid contaminated 
Transmission faulty (Mechanical Problem) 
Possible Solutions 
Check Transmission Fluid (Color and Contamination) 
Replace Transmission Fluid when necessary 
Check Transmission Mechanics 
Special Notes 
Transmission Damage may be caused by Engine Problems, make sure there are no other/relevant Fault Codes stored in Engine Control Module. 
When found in 6-Speed Automatic Transmission (01J/Multitronic): 
Instructions on how to check the Transmission Fluid as well as Details on a special Test Kit can be found in TPI 2016661. TPI 2006088 may also be relevant. 
A conversion from 6 to 7 Clutch Plates may be possible. See TPI 2004856 for Details. 
Retrieved from "http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/17114/P0730/001840"

I certainly hope you don't have to part it out because of a faulty transmission but I certainly understand the economics of the situation. I have a feeling more Phaetons will find there way into the auto boneyards because of the high cost of repairs rather than the car being unserviceable or physically wrecked. If you really like the car and it is otherwise solid you may want to see if an independent mechanic can locally rebuild your transmission. I believe it is merely a 5 speed ZF that is common to some big Jags and BMWs. While the engine and transmission are out you might be able to deal with the manifold leak without the double cost of removing the engine.
Good luck.


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## bigwednesday (Jun 29, 2009)

Thanks Jim for the info.
The fluids have been checked and topped up no joy.
Looks like the tranny is coming out to be replaced.
Manifold will be checked at the same time.
Again many thanks for your kind comments.
Any one out there know about the timescale involved in trans swap?


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*How many W12 transmissions have failed and at what mileage?*

My transmission was dropped from the chassis to replace the torque converter, under Certified Pre-Owned warranty.
I made an appointment several week in advance on advice from the Phaeton tech so that he would not have other concurrent jobs scheduled. It took at least four full business days to get the car back, if not more.
*I think yours is the first W12 transmission to fail outright that has been reported to the forum and your mileage is exceptionally low for a failed transmission. * 
I am at 41K miles myself, no transmission issues other than some downshifts/upshifts between 1st and 2nd gear are harder than one would expect on a higher-end vehicle, but that's been my experience since I got the car at 17K miles.


_Modified by Itzmann at 4:22 PM 6-30-2009_


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## bigwednesday (Jun 29, 2009)

Im sorry to say that is how my car statrted to act before the clunk.
It still drives but any excess power will cause a violent thud and sky high reving.
I am in talks with a company in Kent in England who will supply and fit for 2k.
Fingers crossed.
Alan


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (bigwednesday)*

Hi Allan,
Has it ever had a replacment gear box fitted?
Rgds Tony


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## bigwednesday (Jun 29, 2009)

*Re: (plastech)*

Hi Tony,
Not that I am aware of.
I have found a company in Kent that do a cracking deal on boxs and do the swap.
They are a ferrari shop but cover all.
Just shows you that VW can charge big bucks for labour and parts and a prancing horse company can under cut them by two thirds mm food for thought.
Alan


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: How many W12 transmissions have failed and at what mileage? (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_
*I think yours is the first W12 transmission to fail outright that has been reported to the forum and your mileage is exceptionally low for a failed transmission. * 
_Modified by Itzmann at 4:22 PM 6-30-2009_

I don't think mine would be considered an outright failure, but it’s my understanding there were a handful of early 2004 W12s that had transmission replacements performed here in the US (mine being one of them). VW went so far as to perform complete swap outs and offered up ‘courtesy’ buy backs. 
I tried searching the archives and haven’t been able to find anything on this topic. I just recall when I got mine; there were others in the same boat. For what it's worth, mine had 17K/miles at purchase and 35K/miles on it now with no hint of transmission problems.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: How many W12 transmissions have failed and at what mileage? (Auzivision)*

Wow.
OK, for the memo file, then: a small number of replaced W12 transmissions, some of them with 40K miles or less.
Let's hope any bugs have been figured out by now!


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: How many W12 transmissions have failed and at what mileage? (Itzmann)*

Now that I think about it, I don't believe any of these made it to 15K before the swap. The details I've heard are sketchy at best, but something was amiss and it was quickly rectified. 
If I recall properly, some believe it might have been over zealous techs not knowing what they were doing (trying to fix a minor problem the hard way by swaping parts). 
Either way, I don't believe there are any outstanding long-term issues to my knowledge.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: How many W12 transmissions have failed and at what mileage? (Auzivision)*

vw had issues with the valve bodys being overbored causing too much pressure to prematurely burn out the front reverse clutch. happened on almost all 4motion vehicles. its a ZF known transmission problem and its also an issue on the bmw 760's.


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## Woozlum (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: (bigwednesday)*

Hi Alan,
I have a 5.0 TDi which has developed a problem - when started from cold it goies straight into limp-home mode, but afetr warming up, turning off than starting up again, it's OK.
VW have diagnosed a sticking solenoid, and quoted £6000 to replace the gearbox. (Sadly it's 4 months out of warranty).
The car is currently in Kent, so I was interested in what you said about the Ferrari dealership offereing to do it for half-way sensible money. Could you let me know who they are?
Thanks,
Russell


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (Woozlum)*

Hi Russel,
Do you know what grade of gearbox oil is in it?
Tony


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## Woozlum (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: (plastech)*

Hi Tony,
Not sure. It's always been serviced by VW dealerships, so I'd hope it's as recommended. Is there a chance that a better spec oil would help, do you think?
- Russell


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (Woozlum)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Woozlum* »_Hi Tony,
Not sure. It's always been serviced by VW dealerships, so I'd hope it's as recommended. Is there a chance that a better spec oil would help, do you think?
- Russell


Ask your retailer have they ever reflushed your gearbox using the thinner grade
.I need to find the new part number for you
Tony


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: W12 Gearbox Problems ahh (bigwednesday)*

Hi Alan:
Here are some past discussions that may contain information that is of value to you. In particular, I recommend that you thoroughly read the discussion at the first link below.
Michael
Transmission Discussions (5 speed, used on W12 Phaetons)
....Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)
....Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level (illustrated how-to guide)
....Transmission (any version) - cannot shift out of Park
....Transmission (any version) - PRNDS lights up in display


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: W12 Gearbox Problems ahh (bigwednesday)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigwednesday* »_...had it checked by dealer no joy it has a fault code 171







14 the dealer wants 3000 plus vat at 17% for a new box and 32 hours at 100 pounds an hour to replace the box...

Alan:
I am a bit concerned that the fault code you have cited (171 14) is a 'generic' fault code, rather than a detailed fault code that has been read out using a VW diagnostic scan tool. You may want to check and make sure that your VW dealer has the appropriate diagnostic scan tool.
As for the time to re and re the transmission, 32 hours sounds low, if anything. I have done the same job on my W12 (re and re a transmission), and it took me a full week. The entire engine and transmission has to be removed as a single unit, then separated once it has been removed. It is a very time-consuming task that requires a great deal of component disassembly.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: W12 Gearbox Problems ahh (PanEuropean)*

Another perspective:


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: W12 Gearbox Problems ahh (bigwednesday)*

Alan:
See this post also, because it relates to a design problem that could (in a worst-case situation) lead to transmission failure. The problem affects the W12 powered vehicles only. I don't know if it is LHD specific or not.
W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification (Includes TB 00-06-02 and TB 37-07-08)
Michael


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (Woozlum)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Woozlum* »_Hi Tony,
Not sure. It's always been serviced by VW dealerships, so I'd hope it's as recommended. Is there a chance that a better spec oil would help, do you think?
- Russell



Hi Russell,
Have a read of .
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2420606


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (plastech)*

Hi Folks:
There are about 5 different transmission fluids in use on all the various VW products at the moment (refer to the attached 'Tech Tips' bulletin from VW).
Please be very careful to make sure that you are using the correct fluid for the transmission in your vehicle. The exact specification for the transmission fluid may be found either in the appendix (technical specifications) section of the owner manual, or in the VW repair manual.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter? (Jarfman)*

Note that since January of 2008, there has been a maintenance requirement (in North America, anyway) to change the fluid in the 5 speed transmission used in the W12 powered Phaeton once every 2 years.
If a transmission has failed and the cause of the failure can be traced to fluid breakdown, it is possible that the owner might have some recourse to VW because this preventative maintenance requirement was not published until January of 2008.
I was always a bit skeptical of the "lifetime fluid" claim, and I changed the fluid in my 5 speed transmission after the car had been in service for about 2 years. VW then paid for the second fluid change at the 4 year point, just before the car went out of warranty.
Here is a link to a post that describes the process of changing the transmission fluid. It is a complex process that requires that the transmission be cold when work is started - this means the work cannot be done on a 'same day' basis at the VW dealership. ....Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level (illustrated how-to guide)
Below is a copy of the amendment to the Owner Manual (maintenance schedule) that VW sent out to NAR W12 owners in early 2008 to promulgate this change.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Since I made the last post in this discussion (thread) about 2 years ago, some other discussions have popped up on the same topic of W12 transmissions.

Because this particular thread - the one you are reading now - is the one that is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category), I would like to preserve it as the primary reference for this topic. However, I am a bit reluctant to simply merge the newer discussions onto the end of this existing discussion, because there is more than one newer discussion, and to merge several discussions into one sometimes results in a confusing loss of continuity.

So, here are the links to the other discussions about this same topic:

Persistent 'Check Engine Light' on W12
- for the most part, the above discussion raises the same question as this (master) discussion does.

Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)
- an older discussion that preceded the establishment of the two different transmission topics listed in the FAQ (5 speed and 6 speed transmission discussions).

I'll post links on the above two discussions that point back to this 'master' thread. If you have a question or concern about the 5 speed transmission used in the W12 Phaeton, please post it here (on the master thread) - that will help keep all the accumulated community knowledge together in one place.

Below is a copy of the technical bulletin that addresses the problem of the CEL (check engine light) coming on as a result of a minor problem in the 5 speed transmission.

Michael


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## hyder5614 (Jan 22, 2010)

*'04 W12 needs torque convertor, what's my car worth?*

As the title says, I have a 2004 W12 with 85,000. The car has developed a strange shifting problem. It slips into second gear. Once in second gear, all other gears upshift/downshift perfectly. It is completey driveable. 

Check engine light comes on sometimes, and gives a code about "torque convertor". I searched the forums and it seems to be a common problem with these cars.

The nearest certified Phaeton dealer is five hours from me. Instead of going though that hassle, I purchased a similar mileage W12 for $20,000.

I would like to sell this one now, and will probably list it on ebay, no reserve. 

Trying to determine a fair asking price.

Car has all service records, interior looks like new. Only two small dings on the body, needs PDR. Tire pressure monitor turned off. I am the second owner. 

Will try to post some pics this afternoon.

Thanks,
Hyder


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

85000 km is not much, and there are not that many W12 in Australia. You should be able to get a good price out of it.

P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hello Hyder:

There are at least two different possible problems that can arise with the W12 transmission, they should not be confused with each other.

One consists of the 'Check Engine Light' (Malfunction Indication Light) coming on, and the car otherwise operating properly. This is explained in a technical bulletin that VW circulated many years ago. See post #6 in this thread: Transmission Discussions (5 speed, used on W12 Phaetons). The TB itself is at the end of the second page of that thread (the link to the TB in post #6 is broken).

In that particular case, the only problem is that the malfunction light illuminates. It does so because fuel economy will drop below acceptable (certification) levels. The transmission itself continues to function, there are no operational concerns.

I had this problem with my W12 and had the seal replaced. It took about 60 hours of labour to do the job, the entire engine and transmission needs to be dropped. I would not recommend having this work done unless your service facility are Phaeton experts. There is far too much of a risk of screwing other things up - this due to the extensive disassembly required.

The good news about this problem (if you can call it good news) is that because it is primarily an emissions problem, the emissions warranty on the car - which is much longer than the basic warranty - should cover the cost of doing the work, provided that the car is still covered by the emissions warranty. But, like I said before, think twice before you dive into this - it is the automotive equivalent of open heart surgery.

----------------

The second problem that can arise with the 5 speed transmission on the W12 is a result of the fluid reaching the end of its life. VW released a TB around 2007 stating that the fluid in the 5 speed transmission (used in the W12 engine models only) must be changed every 20,000 miles. That TB is here: W12 Service Bulletin (Transmission Fluid Change every 20K miles), and an illustrated guide explaining how to change the transmission fluid, is here: Changing Transmission Fluid on the 5 speed (FGE) Transmission (W12 Engine).

You might want to consider changing the fluid in your existing (and your new) W12. That might solve the problem in the first car, and prevent a problem from arising with the second car.

By the way - are the two cars actually in Australia? Your profile indicates you are from Australia, but VW did not import Phaetons into Australia. Please let us know what country the cars are in, that helps us figure out what your emissions warranty coverage is, etc.

Thanks,

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note:*

See also these discussions:

Changing Transmission Fluid on the 5 speed (FGE) Transmission (W12 Engine)

Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)

 W12 Service Bulletin (Transmission Fluid Change every 20K miles)

Michael


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## hyder5614 (Jan 22, 2010)

Thanks for quick reply. Sorry for starting a new thread. Thank you for moving it.

Also, I corrected my profile. I am in Mississippi.

I did change the fluid and filter following your detailed instructions. At the same time, I checked all of the solenoids on the valve body with a multimeter. ZF emailed me the wiring diagram and resistances. Everything on the valve body checked out.

The old transmission filter was cracked, and separated from the metal. Very strange, never seen anything like this. Fluid was dark brown, but did not smell burnt. Metal on magnets was minimal.

Before doing the filter/fluid replacement, the car would immediately bang into fifth gear. After the replacement, I can now drive the car normally, it shifts in and out of 2nd thru 5th gears perfectly. You can floor it, it downshifts, redlines, shift into next gear without any problem.

I am only experiencing problems in traffic or during initial take off when 1st gear is in play. If I accelerate very gently (below 2,000 rpm), the car will shift in to 2nd just fine. If I push the accelerator more than half, when the rpm reaches 3,000+, it just pops out of gear and engine free revs. Also, lets say I'm in 2nd gear, if I push the accelerator hard (try to make it downshift), it will not go into 1st, just rev free, like its hunting for the gear.

The nearest Certified Phaeton dealer is in Atlanta, about 500 miles for me. The local dealer refuses to work on it as they don't have the tech or special tools/lift.

Car has now been parked in my garage for about 15 months. I think its best for me to sell it and let the buyer get it fixed, because there's nobody around here to work on it.

On ebay, there are W12's selling with similar mileage for about $20K~22K. I think starting it off at $12,000 no reserve is a reasonable/fair asking price. What you think?

Thanks


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