# T3/T4 VRT boosting REALLY late



## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

I've got a stage 3 kinetic kit installed recently with a Garrett T3/T4 .82 ar on my mk4 vr6 (I know, I should've just gone straight T04/60-1 but you live and you learn). I'm running 630 injectors with the 630cc UM 630 file, a Juan SRI and 2.5 inch dp and exhaust(small I know but kinetic says 3 inch dp's have fitment issues on mk4's so that's what they supply with all their kits). 

There's a 10 lb wastegate spring in and running a Hallman mbc. I'm not seeing any boost build up on my boost controller until almost 6k rpm! Even then, by 6500 or 7k it'll only give me like 3 psi. That's reductions as I went with the smaller turbo for quicker spool and a fat midrange since this is my daily driver. 2 of my buddies also went turbo at the same time in their vr6's except they went with straight T04 with .69 ar and their cars run and boost like champs. They both begin to build boost by around 2500 and in full boost by around 3500(rough estimate as I was holding on to my seat when they took me for a drive. But one stab at the throttle and a small wait and it was in full boost. I've checked everything 5 times, smoke tested and also rechecked timing. All came out fine. No jerkiness or misfires...just a huge hesitation and not as smooth up top. We did notice a tad but if smoke sealing out from between the turbo during the smoke test, some oil in the turbo and bit of shaft play. All the mentioned were brought up to ATP/Garret and say they are within spec.

What gives? I know some people have had problems with the UM 630 files on their mk4's so that could be the problem but I want to rule everything else (that's in my hands and can do) before I blame the tune. 

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

A leak between the turbo and the head or manifold will do this or the wastegate is stuck open or you forgot the fire ring in the wastegate.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

gti vr6er said:


> .... and 2.5 inch dp and exhaust(small I know but kinetic says 3 inch dp's have fitment issues on mk4's so that's what they supply with all their kits).


Where did you hear that? I have a 3" kinetic down pipe.

Have you tried just running off the spring (bypass the mbc)? How does it react then?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

masterqaz said:


> A leak between the turbo and the head or manifold will do this or the wastegate is stuck open or you forgot the fire ring in the wastegate.


Thx ill check that out!


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> Where did you hear that? I have a 3" kinetic down pipe.
> 
> Have you tried just running off the spring (bypass the mbc)? How does it react then?


That's what Clay from CTS told me when I was ordering the kit. I know I've heard guys going from a 2.5 to 3 inch and gaining upwards of 40hp. I don't know how true that is but when I saw my buddies 3 inch next to my 2.5 inch you could def see a big difference *insert witty comment here*

I noticed you have a 24v, maybe it's only the 12v that has the problem. They've told me it actually hits the steering rack on 12v vr6's and that's why they don't use them as part of the kit. Bears me, I myself would love to run a 3 inch as I'm sure it would help a ton.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

yeah I've gotten most of my parts from Clay and he's usually spot on with advice like that. And you're right I only have experience on 24v's and R's so yeah it may be a specific clearance problem with the 12v. I just always assumed 12v & 24v components were very very similar or the same. Guess not.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Your problem is it's on a VR. I make [email protected]


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

sp_golf said:


> Your problem is it's on a VR. I make [email protected]


I thought I was the only one.....


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## colovw (Aug 27, 2007)

masterqaz said:


> A leak between the turbo and the head or manifold will do this or the wastegate is stuck open or you forgot the fire ring in the wastegate.


First thing I thought too. What wastegate are you running?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

gti vr6er said:


> 2.5 inch dp and exhaust(small I know but kinetic says 3 inch dp's have fitment issues on mk4's so that's what they supply with all their kits).





24vGTiVR6 said:


> Where did you hear that? I have a 3" kinetic down pipe.





gti vr6er said:


> That's what Clay from CTS told me when I was ordering the kit. I know I've heard guys going from a 2.5 to 3 inch and gaining upwards of 40hp. I don't know how true that is but when I saw my buddies 3 inch next to my 2.5 inch you could def see a big difference *insert witty comment here*
> 
> I noticed you have a 24v, maybe it's only the 12v that has the problem. They've told me it actually hits the steering rack on 12v vr6's and that's why they don't use them as part of the kit.





24vGTiVR6 said:


> yeah I've gotten most of my parts from Clay and he's usually spot on with advice like that. And you're right I only have experience on 24v's and R's so yeah it may be a specific clearance problem with the 12v. I just always assumed 12v & 24v components were very very similar or the same. Guess not.



Kinetic/CTS has been stating that for years and I don't know why. There are several 12v Mk4 users (myself included) running a 3" or lager downpipe with no issues. The challenge on the Mk4 is that 180 deg bend that the dp makes prior to exiting through the tunnel. With the amount of expertise that Kinetic has by now I don't understand their reluctance to release a sensible dp for that 12v MK4. The 12/24v manifold is completely different and the issue is specific to the 12v Mk4 only (ie 12v Mk3 is a non-issue given the dp is driver's side mounted).

About your late spool issue also verify that the throttle body is opening as should... Vag-COM.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Kinetic/CTS has been stating that for years and I don't know why. There are several 12v Mk4 users (myself included) running a 3" or lager downpipe with no issues. The challenge on the Mk4 is that 180 deg bend that the dp makes prior to exiting through the tunnel. With the amount of expertise that Kinetic has by now I don't understand their reluctance to release a sensible dp for that 12v MK4. The 12/24v manifold is completely different and the issue is specific to the 12v Mk4 only (ie 12v Mk3 is a non-issue given the dp is driver's side mounted).
> 
> About your late spool issue also verify that the throttle body is opening as should... Vag-COM.


AMMMEN! Ya, I know tons of mk4 12v vrt's running 3 inch dp's with no problems. 2.5 just seems ridiculous on a turbocharged 6 cylinder car. I specifically asked clay if he could send out a 3 inch with my kit but no dice. It's not his fault...it's kinetics. With all the money they've made and the means they possess in R&D, Im blown away by the fact that the mk4 kits still come with 2.5 inch dp's. understandable maybe when they first out the kit together but come on. 

Needless to say, a 40 hp difference is big enough for me to begin shopping around for a 3 inch. Only bummer is the v band flange was just welded on the 2.5 but it is what it is...I'd just need to weld another. 

On a side note, anyone know if the 42dd corrado test pipe will fit a mk4? I know the mk3 will technically fit but it's not long enough apparently so more welding of an extension needs to be done. I'm looking for a true swap without any further welding(other than the v band of course). I wouldn't mind replacing it with a resonator either but just want to get rid of the cat altogether(in beyond CARB failed so no need for the cat)


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Have you solved your issue yet?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

masterqaz said:


> Have you solved your issue yet?


Cars been flashed with the 440 file and I'm heading over to the shop in a few to check things out. I really hope it solves my issues otherwise I really don't know where else the problem can be.

Ill report back with news.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

masterqaz said:


> A leak between the turbo and the head or manifold will do this or the wastegate is stuck open or you forgot the fire ring in the wastegate.


Oh, checked on that with my shop a few days ago and they said the fire ring was installed. Is it possible for a brand new wastegate to be stuck open? Also, wouldn't the smoke from the smoke test leak out if the wastegate if it was stuck open? no snoke out if turbo-manifold gasket or manifold-head gasket. I was so convinced it was a wastegate problem or leak but I've been reassured that the smoke test ruled those out.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Problem with smoking the intake is the valves in the head. You'd be relying on the engine to be stopped at a specific point of valve over lap to see anything coming out the exhaust. Even at this it'd be limited and wont push out a leaking spot as easy since there is no restricions in the exhaust.

At this point Im going to have to say..... pull your WG reference line and go for a boot down the street. Obviously you'll have to be the boost controller with your foot.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Well, this sux. The 440 injectors and tune didn't solve the late spool problem. So a faulty 630 tune is officially ruled out(albeit the 630 file still runs crazy rich compared to the 440 on my car). 

I took it for a drive and still the same ****...0 boost until late 5k or early 6k and only 5 or 6 psi revving to the moon. 

I'm just completely stumped and burned out. I don't know what else to do. 4 seasons recommended taking the turbo off Monday and sending to get checked out. A bad turbo is the last thing they think it could be. I myself am not so sure since when the turbo spools it spools fine...albeit slow to spool. Also, no smoke or anything from the turbo or tailpipe. They did say they found some oil in the housing but i think thats a totally separate issue as I don't see how some oil could cause the spooling problems. Or could it? 

Anyhow, I took a few pics that I figured I'd post that might be useful in figuring things out. Apologies if they're HUGE, I'm uploading them like that so it's easier to see nooks and crannies.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

If there's any other pics anyone thinks might be useful plz let me know and ill take them. TIA for any/all help and input.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

Have you tried a test run with the exhaust temporarily disconnected from the downpipe? If you haven't, it would be a worthwhile test just to rule out an exhaust restriction of some sort; cat could be going south on you, or there could be some other restriction.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Is that a second side port on your wg, and is it open?


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

I'd also recommend picking up a boost leak tester to pressure test your system. I got mine here http://www.siliconeintakes.com/category.php?cat=8

I had a shop smoke test for leaks and we found none, a few days later I picked up one of these and an air tank with compressed air and found 3 major leaks. My turbo was still fully spooled by 4000 rpms even with the leaks though, so it may not be your problem, but it's good to have on hand. Good luck man :beer:


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Try the car just with the dp fitted. It might rule out a cogged cat. I had the same issue on my 35R mk3, and it was a Magnaflow cat that was toast.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> Is that a second side port on your wg, and is it open?


Good eye! Ya the mbc line was going there originally but they connected it to the top port instead and sealed the side port with a screw. Guess we figured it would help keep the wastegate closed since we were ruling out a stuck open wategate. I tried to get a pic of where its connected but its under a bunch of stuff,


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Ill def do the exhaust/cat removal test to see if it fixes the problem before I remove the turbo and all that fun stuff. 

Quick question, can a bad/malfunctioning turbo cause super late spool? I'm asking because I don't want to go through the labor and costs of removing it and sending it out to get tested and checked out if these symptoms could not be caused by the turbo itself. I was also EXTREMELY close to just buying a new turbo(6262) and throwing it on the while the other one is getting checked out. I figured if it checks out ok, then I cold just sell it. If not, I'd assume ATP would warrantee it anyways. But I just don't want to spend money on a new turbo if the symptoms I'm having can not be linked to a bad turbo.

Can anyone tell me if a bad turbo can cause such late spool characteristics? Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.


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## colovw (Aug 27, 2007)

Yes, it could cause late/ low boost. I've had it happen to me, thought there is usually other signs such as oil burning, etc. and you say there is no oil from tailpipe, right? Have you gotten a good look at the vanes to see if there is any damage? That could do it too.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

colovw said:


> Yes, it could cause late/ low boost. I've had it happen to me, thought there is usually other signs such as oil burning, etc. and you say there is no oil from tailpipe, right? Have you gotten a good look at the vanes to see if there is any damage? That could do it too.


No, no smoke from tail pipe and I heard you can actually smell burnt oil if you pop the hood after its run but I took it got a drive and popped the hood after and didn't smell anything- even with my head above the turbo. Don't know if that means anything though. 

You say check the "vanes"...are u referring to inside the turbo housing? Sorry if that's a dumb question but this is my first turbo project so I'm rapidly learning a lot as I go.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

With no oil burning, is it possible for a turbo to be bad? Damn, I must sound like a broken record asking the same question 3 times but I'm just trying to understand. If its possible then ill just do the exhaust /cat test and if it doesn't solve the problem just buy another turbo and send the one I have to ATP for analysis.


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## colovw (Aug 27, 2007)

gti vr6er said:


> You say check the "vanes"...are u referring to inside the turbo housing? Sorry if that's a dumb question but this is my first turbo project so I'm rapidly learning a lot as I go.


Yup. look in the intake and exhaust ends. Look for chips, missing vanes, rubbing, etc.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

colovw said:


> Yup. look in the intake and exhaust ends. Look for chips, missing vanes, rubbing, etc.


Will do. I asked my shop to try the exhaust test first before they take the turbo off. Hopefully it's just a bad cat as I was going to delete it anyways.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Well my shop didn't have time to try running it with just the dp but I did remember that I made a short video clip of something my boost gauge was doing last I test drive it. It seems my vacuum is a bit low at idle. I believe it's supposed to be something around 17-20 but mine was mostly at 14 and bouncing to 12 constantly. Anyhow, here's the vid. I'm assuming this shows that I have a vacuum leak somewhere. Or does it?
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b...-9E2D-6552FB71BC6F-31052-0000062395D38104.mp4


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

rpms hunting around, your fueling is prob bumping up and down as well which will affect vac readings. Pressure test the intake, cant hurt.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

masterqaz said:


> rpms hunting around, your fueling is prob bumping up and down as well which will affect vac readings. Pressure test the intake, cant hurt.


U won't believe how many times I've mentioned smoke testing/pressure testing it again but they keep saying they already did and that the only places leaks were found were a nipple on the bottom of my short runner(which they fixed) and a bit of smoke coming from between the turbine and compressor housing(ATP say its normal for there to be smoke seepage when under pressure). 

I wouldn't normally just go and spend $900 on a new turbo when I wasn't completely positive it was the turbo but this last 3.5 months has really burnt me out. Only thing it can be I guess if its not a clogged cat. 

Any other suggestions before I pull the turbo off?


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

Didnt see it mentioned but is the car throwing any codes that would lead you to look at sensors like maf/o2/iat?

I know it sounds dumb but I've heard of misplaced shop rags causing issues like this, either in the intake or intercooler piping. Trust me, it happens


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## GingerH8r (Aug 16, 2010)

First I'd take the MBC off and let the WG spring do all the work. Take off the intake pipe and see how free the shaft spins, if there is any play, if the blades/housing is chewed up. If that checks out maybe an exh. manifold leak but you would definitely smell it in the car. I'm willing to bet that catalytic coverter is cooked though. Bust out the sawzall


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Yareka said:


> Didnt see it mentioned but is the car throwing any codes that would lead you to look at sensors like maf/o2/iat?
> 
> I know it sounds dumb but I've heard of misplaced shop rags causing issues like this, either in the intake or intercooler piping. Trust me, it happens


That's the thing that's irritating, there's no codes whatsoever. We swapped maf's because we knew they are notorious for being bad and not throwing a code. One thing that is weird with the maf(do t know if this is normal) is when u unplug it at idle it idles rough for like 2-3 seconds them smoothens out to normal. I'm told its going into closed loop. I have no idea what that means and don't see how that could cause such a dramatic change in late spool or have anything to do with it. 

Regarding the shop rag, wouldn't that throw a code for sure? Plus my guy is a bit of a perfectionist with his work and extremely thorough so I doubt that would be the case on my situation. Not saying it doesn't happen as I'm sure it happens more than people know but don't think that's my issue ATM


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

GingerH8r said:


> First I'd take the MBC off and let the WG spring do all the work. Take off the intake pipe and see how free the shaft spins, if there is any play, if the blades/housing is chewed up. If that checks out maybe an exh. manifold leak but you would definitely smell it in the car. I'm willing to bet that catalytic coverter is cooked though. Bust out the sawzall


We actually did that. There was a but of "in-out" play but none side to side. The blades wouldn't touch the housing either when it was spun. I took a video of it and sent it to ATP and they said its normal. I just don't see how a turbo with oil in it should have shaft play. Garret's do have a bit of shaft play when there's no oil in the turbo(their website stated that's normal) but not with actual oil in the turbo. ATP were more than helpful and said they'd stand behind their sale and said that I am more than welcome to send the turbo back for analysis but just trying to rule out other things before Im confounded its the turbo and go through all that. This is why it's so tempting to just buy another turbo(one that I should've gotten in the first place anyways(pt 6262 or gt35r)


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Yareka said:


> Didnt see it mentioned but is the car throwing any codes that would lead you to look at sensors like maf/o2/iat?
> 
> I know it sounds dumb but I've heard of misplaced shop rags causing issues like this, either in the intake or intercooler piping. Trust me, it happens


Oh and o2 was swapped for a new one and didn't change a thing so we put mine back on which is only like 6 months old anyways and it's oem bosch


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Video of shaft play
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b...-881E-496844273E99-26543-000019597DCA2218.mp4


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

My mk3 VRT with a Juan Sri and 6262 doesn't boost till almost 5K! 
It's the intake manifold that kills it. Get the drc/foffa regrinds and it should help :thumbup: 
I have a 3" turbo back as well. Lubromoly anti-friction additive will help it spool quicker


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

dub_slug said:


> My mk3 VRT with a Juan Sri and 6262 doesn't boost till almost 5K!
> It's the intake manifold that kills it. Get the drc/foffa regrinds and it should help :thumbup:
> I have a 3" turbo back as well. Lubromoly anti-friction additive will help it spool quicker


Just out of curiosity, what are the hot-side specs of your 6262 turbo?


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

prob .82 ar


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

my 6262 t4 .68 hits 15psi by 42xx and thats with 268 cams. The op has the basic kinetic 60trim which should spool way earlier, thats not his issue. Hes loosing exhaust velocity somewhere.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

gti vr6er said:


> Video of shaft play
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b...-881E-496844273E99-26543-000019597DCA2218.mp4


wow... you were tugging and pushing on that turbine shalf pretty good... :facepalm:

my 6766 (journal bearing) with a .96 T4 exhaust housing hits wastegate boost (15psi) at ~4200rpm... 20psi at ~4500... 3L with 263 cams ( I wish I have 268 or 288s cams in there, next year mods i guess  )


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

My turbo is in fact not the standard 60 trim supplied with the kits. I didn't want those so I upgraded at a minimal cost difference. Here's the turbo. FYI I went with .82 ar hotside.
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...tp&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-061&Category_Code=TBN

It's the journal bearing equivalent of the GT3582R and slightly larger than the 60-1, but smaller than the 3582R. In fact they share the same compressor wheel. Precision makes a turbo similar to this one (SC61). This is Garretts answer to Precisions SC61.

So the more I think about it the more I'm ok with my turbo choice but ill be totally ecstatic when I get this late spooling problem fixed. No news from my shop regarding running only the dp. If I do t hear back from them by noon tomorrow, I'm going to head down there and just take the exhaust off myself and take it for a spin. Hopefully their lift won't be occupied or ill need to take my jack. 

First things first I guess, ill try running it with just a dp. If that doesn't solve it ill be convinced its the turbo. Ill remove the mbc too just to simplify things. 

Tia for help.


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

has to be your exhaust. seen similar thing with a clogged cat on a s/c vr


what is the exhaust set up?  and 3" dp made my car much better


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## Bluegrape2 (Mar 3, 2012)

Well there are lots of good ideas mentioned on here. First let me say I had the same turbo on my 12v and it started to make boost 2800rpm and was making 18psi by 4000RPM. It is a nice little turbo and will make 400whp if your car is healthy.

-Go over all you IC piping look for kinks in silicones and visually inspect with flashlight to make sure there are no blockages in your charge pipes.
-Go back to running just WG boost pressure like mentioned , ditch the MBC for the moment. 
-Make sure you have all you Vacuum lines running correctly, Matter of fact please post pics of all your vac lines (DV, WG ect)
-Crawl under your car with cordless impact gun and run open DP , just leave exhaust hanging and if its dragging just wire tie it up for the mean time. Running open down pipe you should 100% notice better spool/response and more power. I mean a very obvious kick in the ass increase. If you dont you have something else going on. 
-Your motor is time correctly? double check.
-I would take WG off (ditch fire ring you should not need to run one at all just tq down tight, and re-assemble, also take time ti check which spring(s) you have in there for sure

My guess is you have your vac lines wrong, faulty WG, or maybe bad cat. This should be easy to figure out brother. Get you cheeks out there and go make some big boost.

If that is a new turbo I would not think it would be bad. They have been around forever...its not smoking -and it would most likely sound funny spooling.!!! GL and keep us posted.

Also what IC are you running? make sure both end tanks are clear. You should be able to figure this out in two hours max...can't beleive your "shop" can't diag this


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## Bluegrape2 (Mar 3, 2012)

Also I hope you are not paying a shop to swap turbo's for you. def learn how to do stuff like that. swapping turbos is a 90min job max with basic tools. you will thank yourself and so will your wallet.:beer:


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

as mentioned ditch the MBC for now. did someone change the spring on the waste gate ever? maybe they pinched the diaphragm? just throwing things out there :beer:


my car 3rd-4th 60 trim


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

BLSport said:


> Just out of curiosity, what are the hot-side specs of your 6262 turbo?


It's a t3 .63

My old setup on the stock intake manifold, 6265 t4 .81 3" turbo back, full 30+psi right at 4k rpm.
I prefer a modified stock intake manifold setup as it has a lot more torque and nasty high-mid range power


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

Soundwave_vr6 said:


> as mentioned ditch the MBC for now. did someone change the spring on the waste gate ever? maybe they pinched the diaphragm? just throwing things out there :beer:
> 
> 
> my car 3rd-4th 60 trim


Your car would be alot faster with a bigger turbo :thumbup:
I think the new 6266 or 6466 would the perfect turbo for a VR


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Yeah those 60 trims are on the lower end. I'd expect better pick up outta 20 psi on mine but at least my ring lands are intact.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

dub_slug said:


> It's a t3 .63
> 
> My old setup on the stock intake manifold, 6265 t4 .81 3" turbo back, full 30+psi right at 4k rpm.
> I prefer a modified stock intake manifold setup as it has a lot more torque and nasty high-mid range power


Thanks for the info. :beer:


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## 10sec-rabbit (Oct 14, 2003)

The waste-gate valve seat/ fire ring was installed properly or at all??

I have seen many people just forget to put it in. 

obviously with out it your losing a bunch of exhaust energy to turbine wheel..


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Apparently it was fitted


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

10sec-rabbit said:


> The waste-gate valve seat/ fire ring was installed properly or at all??
> 
> I have seen many people just forget to put it in.
> 
> obviously with out it your losing a bunch of exhaust energy to turbine wheel..


Ya I'm told it's been installed. That's what alot of people thought actually since its such a common thing to forget or not even know about.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Soundwave_vr6 said:


> as mentioned ditch the MBC for now. did someone change the spring on the waste gate ever? maybe they pinched the diaphragm? just throwing things out there :beer:
> 
> 
> my car 3rd-4th 60 trim


Ya when I asked about the wastegate Adrian(person who did the install) didn't know what spring was in and that he never opened it during the install. He said he left whatever it came with in. That brings me to the question: wouldn't you have to open the wastegate in order to put the fire ring in?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Bluegrape2 said:


> Also I hope you are not paying a shop to swap turbo's for you. def learn how to do stuff like that. swapping turbos is a 90min job max with basic tools. you will thank yourself and so will your wallet.:beer:


I'm definitely more than capable of removing/swapping the turbo(I counted only 10-11 bolts actually) but I don't feel like its fair to go pick up my car with it running the way it is after paying so much in labor. So I'd prefer if they did whatever it is they need to do to make this right. I'm so tired of this whole thing that I don't mind paying a bit more for it to be FIXED! Something just isnt right. 

But I feel you and thx for the headsup. It would be ridiculous to pay for something I can do myself but I guess this is a unique situation.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Bluegrape2 said:


> Well there are lots of good ideas mentioned on here. First let me say I had the same turbo on my 12v and it started to make boost 2800rpm and was making 18psi by 4000RPM. It is a nice little turbo and will make 400whp if your car is healthy.
> 
> -Go over all you IC piping look for kinks in silicones and visually inspect with flashlight to make sure there are no blockages in your charge pipes.
> -Go back to running just WG boost pressure like mentioned , ditch the MBC for the moment.
> ...


Ya I totally doubted my choice of turbo when I talked to my shop about their recently T04 turbocharged 12v vrt's(their cars got turbocharged in the midst of mine). They were questioning the .82 ar and basically the whole turbo choice but the more I read, the more I realize that I'm very happy with my turbo choice. Much better than a t04 IMHO. Boost by 2500rpm and 18 psi by 4k rpm is exactly what I was shooting for.

Thanks for all the suggestions...at this point all I can do is forward this info to them. I have faith in them...they know their stuff. I just think it takes forever to get anything done to my car. 

Most importantly thanks for the optimism and enthusiasm. It's much appreciated at this time as I'm just totally frustrated and burned out from this. 4+ months of just waiting. Car is covered in dirt...looks like a junkyard car.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Soundwave_vr6 said:


> has to be your exhaust. seen similar thing with a clogged cat on a s/c vr
> 
> 
> what is the exhaust set up?  and 3" dp made my car much better


I forwarded what everyone's saying about the cat and trying to run the car with just the dp last week and it hasn't been done yet. Almost a full week since I mentioned it.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

PjS860ct said:


> wow... you were tugging and pushing on that turbine shalf pretty good... :facepalm:
> 
> my 6766 (journal bearing) with a .96 T4 exhaust housing hits wastegate boost (15psi) at ~4200rpm... 20psi at ~4500... 3L with 263 cams ( I wish I have 268 or 288s cams in there, next year mods i guess  )


Ya that wasn't me...that was my shop who made the vid.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

You dont have to open the wastegate up to install the fire ring. It goes on from the bottom of the flange where the valve is. 

Not sure on the spring size..... Id open it up and check what spring is in it.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

gti vr6er said:


> Ya that wasn't me...that was my shop who made the vid.


:facepalm:


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

masterqaz said:


> You dont have to open the wastegate up to install the fire ring. It goes on from the bottom of the flange where the valve is.
> 
> Not sure on the spring size..... Id open it up and check what spring is in it.


Gotcha...thanks. Ill look for it when I go check on the car. The shop says its installed so I'm pretty sure it's on there. Ill double check that and what spring is in there.


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

I installed heavy duty light weight lifters today along with stock MkIV cams and picked up almost 1,000 rpm faster spool!    full boost a little before 4,000rpm now and couldn't be happier. Need to do plugs and wires as its breaking up in the top end. But it's ripping fat now. I would highly recommend this to anyone with a short runner on mk3 vr6.

:beer:


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## Bluegrape2 (Mar 3, 2012)

After you check the easy stuff ask them to make sure timing is on as well. I am sure you will be up and boosting soon and you will forget all about the headaches. As soon as you get everything ironed out and the extra heat from the turbo exposes all the old coolant parts, (which will happen in first 6 months) replace and wrap all the vulnerable areas and you should have a very reliable set up. Get everything ironed out and you will only have to pop the hood to show off the kit and check the oil! Get on their ASS to get you up and running and keep us posted!GL:beer:


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

some videos from tonight after stock mkiv cam and lw hd lifter install. mk3 vrt with juan sri and 6262


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

dub_slug which cams did you have before, or do you think the lifters made the difference?

And what boost are you running?


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

I had stock mkIII cams before and now I have stock MkIV cams. The car already had heavy duty lifters installed but I went ahead and put in the lightweight ones instead. 
I'm running 14psi until I get the fuel pump and diff installed 

Edit: 
I think it was the cams that made the difference because in the mk3's they have equal length runners thanks to the intake manifold. In the MkIV the runners are uneven but the cams have runner compensation. The MkIV cams correct the airflow of the motor while using a short runner on a mk3. The MkIV guys using short runners are good to go. 

Next I will get my DRC 268's regrinded to a more extreme profile like 268/274, 262/268 or whatever foffa stage 3's are


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

Forgot to mention those videos were with me and three other friends in the car. We're all big dudes. Needless to say the VRT was weighed down


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)




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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

gti vr6er said:


> Video of shaft play
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b...-881E-496844273E99-26543-000019597DCA2218.mp4


 I'm not sure if you mentioned this yet, but is that being addressed? That seems like more movement than should be.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

*Update time* Well, problem solved! I got to the shop and my car was on the lift and my cat on the table. Both of us, James(4 seasons shop owner) and myself, looked through it towards the light and you could see light through it...albeit not all of it looked open. It didnt smell foul or crazy rich either. So needless to say, we were skeptical it was the problem. So James brings the car down off the lift(after we secured the 02's out and away from the opening of the dp as we were pretty sure sparks would fly out) and James said go take her for a spin. I start the car(loud as hell obviously), get onto the street and mash the pedal. Bogging, sputtering, choppy. I thought, oh crap! Then I remembered and told myself "dude, the 02's are just hanging there...of course it's bogging and running funny...The ecu is confused. So instead of mashing the pedal, I ease into it from 2nd gear and viola!! I see 11 psi almost instantly! I try it one more time and see 13psi. With a grin on my face and scared ****less of getting pulled over(there are a TON of cops out here in orange county California right now due to the holidays...and I mean a TON. I head back to the shop. As I'm giving the news to James and we're going over what the options are, Adrian(master mechanic at 4 seasons) pulls up and asks how it went. I told him I saw 13 psi but I'd rather we go for a spin with someone else in the car or driving so we can be sure it wasn't my wishful thinking(or seeing?) or imagination. Adrian hops in the drivers seat and we go for a spin. All I gotta say is holy ****tttt!! It pulls like a damn rocket ship or freight train! I hadn't really let her rip since I was on main roads but Adrian took us to some back roads and did a couple pulls and it pulls so hard I couldn't lift my head off the headrest. Keep in mind that this is my first vrt so "holy ****" to me might not be the same "holy ****" to you. But it pulled harder than I could ask for when I started this whole thing. I couldn't wipe the huge grin off my face. I could tell even Adrian was surprised at how much power it had. He stops at a light and looks over to me and says: "well, guess we found the problem" haha. So the plan is I'm going to get a test pipe built and run a test pipe(only for the track of course) 

Well, I just wanted to thank everyone for their help and input. Those of you guessing it was a clogged/faulty cat really hit the nail in the head and those of you thinking otherwise had some very valid points. 

I can't close this post out without thanking 4 seasons. I know I got pretty frustrated and tbh doubted them at times since it was taking so long to diagnose the problem, but in all fairness when I think back, they did A LOT to my car in these 4 months and didn't even think of charging me. James, Adrian and even Eric put their own time and effort into it and treated my car as if it was their own. They just didn't want 

Well, long post is a long post. Videos and any more updates will be posted soon. 

Thanks again!!!


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: 


awesome man :thumbup:


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> I'm not sure if you mentioned this yet, but is that being addressed? That seems like more movement than should be.


 No I sent the vid to ATP and they didn't find that odd at all. It was spinning freely and wouldn't touch the housing so I suppose I'm ok with it. We all thought that wasn't right for a brand new turbo to have play like that but ATP didn't see anything wrong with it. Ill keep an eye on it though and if it becomes worse ill send it back for a warranty refund or replacement.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Bluegrape2 said:


> After you check the easy stuff ask them to make sure timing is on as well. I am sure you will be up and boosting soon and you will forget all about the headaches. As soon as you get everything ironed out and the extra heat from the turbo exposes all the old coolant parts, (which will happen in first 6 months) replace and wrap all the vulnerable areas and you should have a very reliable set up. Get everything ironed out and you will only have to pop the hood to show off the kit and check the oil! Get on their ASS to get you up and running and keep us posted!GL:beer:


 thx a lot man. Ya I'm looking into a turbo blanket right now(either PTP or DEI) and prob some dei flexible Velcro gear sheilding material to wrap up a few lines and hoses near the turbo. Thx for the headsup though. 👍🍺


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

dub_slug said:


> I installed heavy duty light weight lifters today along with stock MkIV cams and picked up almost 1,000 rpm faster spool!    full boost a little before 4,000rpm now and couldn't be happier. Need to do plugs and wires as its breaking up in the top end. But it's ripping fat now. I would highly recommend this to anyone with a short runner on mk3 vr6.
> 
> :beer:


 Sweet man...glad to hear that! Although, my car is a mk4. I know we have my stock mk4 cams laying around the shop from when I swapped them for my 262's so putting my stock cams and light weight valve springs might be a nice upgrade down the line.🍺


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

*ucking awesome. Been waiting awhile to find out.


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## colovw (Aug 27, 2007)

Glad you figured it out:thumbup: 
And thanks for following up with what it was.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

Good to hear, glad you got it sorted. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2012)

Awesome to hear your finally boostin. Good guys over at Four Season!


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

Hell yea dude!! ****ing awesome! James is the man for sure. I always order my parts from him. I didn't know they ran a shop too  

Time to enjoy the good ole VRT! 

Post a video of 2nd-3rd gear pull


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

Glad you got it figured out man! So are you still running really rich?


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## Bluegrape2 (Mar 3, 2012)

Hell Yea!!! Happy to hear you got it fixxed up. You sound like a good dude! Enjoy VRT Bliss!!!


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

gti vr6er said:


> So the plan is I'm going to get a test pipe built and run a test pipe(only for the track of course)


 Of course. :laugh: 

And congrats on getting it running right. 

4Seasons has been great to deal with whenever I have ordered parts so I have only praise for James there. :thumbup:


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

dub_slug said:


> Hell yea dude!! ****ing awesome! James is the man for sure. I always order my parts from him. I didn't know they ran a shop too
> 
> Time to enjoy the good ole VRT!
> 
> Post a video of 2nd-3rd gear pull


 Pull or spin lol


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

Haha spinnin all day for me lol! 
I start getting traction in third but I'm only on 14psi, 7lb wg spring with soft spring in the controller. Definitely a soft spool


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks alot everyone! This forum is incredibly helpful and informative. To be honest, it's pretty much all I read if I'm on vortex. Hopefully this thread will some people's problems in the future if/when they search for my symptoms.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

R32Smoker said:


> Glad you got it figured out man! So are you still running really rich?


 Good question! With the file that Jeff cut back some fueling- no. But, I was curious to see if the car would still run rich and like **** on the original 630 file with the clogged cat deleted. Not sure if that clogged cat was causing that original file to run funny. Still gotta contact James on that. I'm just scared of upping the boost in the near future(I know I will lol) and for there not to be enough fueling. Tbh, even if James isn't able to swap files to test it out I'm fine with it. I'm just happy that the main problem was finally diagnosed and is being solved ATM.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Now that the main problem was diagnosed, does anyone know if a clogged cat can cause damage to a turbo? Would the build up of back pressure cause harm to the turbo? I guess I'm asking because Im kind if curious to see if the clogged cat problem led to the bit of shaft play I have.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Oh, and how high can I turn up the boost without running lean and needing a fuel pump(I have an inline in my room but figured I could hold off on that for now)?


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

gti vr6er said:


> Sweet man...glad to hear that! Although, my car is a mk4. I know we have my stock mk4 cams laying around the shop from when I swapped them for my 262's so putting my stock cams and light weight valve springs might be a nice upgrade down the line.🍺


 honestly the 262 is the best cam for boost but in a mk3 with the stock intake manifold...if you pull the 262's send them to DRC (dougherty racing cams) he can grind them into a 262/268 or something to that effect. look up the foffa2002 he did a lot of research on the mkiv style cams and you can yield big power and high rpm flow by doing a custom grind like that. just give drc a call one day. 



gti vr6er said:


> Now that the main problem was diagnosed, does anyone know if a clogged cat can cause damage to a turbo? Would the build up of back pressure cause harm to the turbo? I guess I'm asking because Im kind if curious to see if the clogged cat problem led to the bit of shaft play I have.


 your turbo will be fine. it just wasn't able to push the exhaust out because of the clogged cat. 




gti vr6er said:


> Oh, and how high can I turn up the boost without running lean and needing a fuel pump(I have an inline in my room but figured I could hold off on that for now)?


 your maf sensor will read the additional airflow and add fuel accordingly :thumbup: i wouldn't run more than 10-14psi on the stock fuel pump. put the walbro in and your good to 30+psi


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

So are you running the 440 injectors and file or an updated 630 tune?


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

1st post 

" I'm running 630 injectors with the 630cc UM 630 file"


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

dub_slug said:


> honestly the 262 is the best cam for boost but in a mk3 with the stock intake manifold...if you pull the 262's send them to DRC (dougherty racing cams) he can grind them into a 262/268 or something to that effect. look up the foffa2002 he did a lot of research on the mkiv style cams and you can yield big power and high rpm flow by doing a custom grind like that. just give drc a call one day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the headsup on the regrind option. Would it be possible to send the stock mk4 came out for regrind? Only reason I'm asking is that way I wouldn't have to remove my 262's while the other ones were getting the regrind. I'm guessing not due to such shorter duration/lift of the stock cams but thought I'd ask. 

Glad to hear the turbo will be fine for the time being...I'm really tapped out financially. 

Fuel pump wise, I think ill just set it up at like 10-12 psi for now just to get used to all this added power and get used to a turboed car and throw in the pump when I'm itching to up the boost. 

Thx dub_slug 👍🍺


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

Soundwave_vr6 said:


> 1st post
> 
> " I'm running 630 injectors with the 630cc UM 630 file"


 I saw that, but I know he also bought some 440 injectors and tried out the 440 tune for bit since the original 630 file was running too rich. I was just wondering if he ever got an updated 630 file that works well. I'm not really sure if a clogged cat could cause a rich condition or not. 

I'm still waiting to hear from Jeff about an updated file, hence my curiosity


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

R32Smoker said:


> So are you running the 440 injectors and file or an updated 630 tune?


 Wish there was a revised mk4 630 file...I'm told he(Jeff) is working on one. But to answer your question, we put back my 630 injectors and are running the tweaked(cut back some fueling) file.


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

gti vr6er said:


> Thanks for the headsup on the regrind option. Would it be possible to send the stock mk4 came out for regrind? Only reason I'm asking is that way I wouldn't have to remove my 262's while the other ones were getting the regrind. I'm guessing not due to such shorter duration/lift of the stock cams but thought I'd ask.
> 
> Glad to hear the turbo will be fine for the time being...I'm really tapped out financially.
> 
> ...


 hey sounds like a good plan bro. and yes you can definitely send the stock cams in to get them modified. i did that a while back but never got to use them. sold them to a guy on here with a 3l and he said he noticed a good improvement. said it really woke up the engine. hope that helps. i thinks only $175. I would get the 262's reground tho as drc told me they can do a pretty aggressive profile on those since they are new billets. removing the cams is easy, just get the timing lined up right, zip tie the sprockets and your good. its easy I've done two cars this past week with heavy duty lifters and swapping stock cams around lol. just takes patience :thumbup: 

enjoy the vrt for now; when you're ready for more power...do the cam regrind, put the fuel pump in and crank the boost up


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Well guys, problem is back Im ready to just cry lol. We threw the test pipe on, attached the test pile back exhaust(one resonator and a borla muffler) and I'm only seeing like 5 at 5500 rpm. It flies after that but annoying as **** to have to floor the pedal just to see a little boost. I noticed I'm even seeing no boost in first. So car feels like its supercharged...feels na til 5500 then flies. 

So, could I clogged muffler even cause such a big problem? I mean when it was running straight through the dp I'd see 5 psi at almost 2000-2500 rpm but exhaust is attached and once again late spool. I'm stumped. 

I'm going to dc the muffler just in case it's that. Otherwise, ill be convinced its the injectors or tune. Does anyone remember what injectors and tune were in when I tried running straight dp? If it was the 440's ill be positive it's either the 630 injectors or the tune.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Exhaust is restrictive. It wont be the file or the tune.


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

time for 3" :beer:


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

masterqaz said:


> Exhaust is restrictive. It wont be the file or the tune.


Do u think it might be the muffler? Or do u think its because of the 2.5 inch exhaust?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Soundwave_vr6 said:


> time for 3" :beer:


I'm so financially tapped it its ridiculous. And is have to have the dp made custom since no one sells a 3 inch for the mk4 12v. Tbh, it's pathetic because when I looked back there it seems like a 3 inch is totally doable...it just needs to precise or slightly notched or a small curve near where it would hit the steering rack


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

gti vr6er said:


> Do u think it might be the muffler? Or do u think its because of the 2.5 inch exhaust?


You could always remove one thing at a time and run it each time to test and see.

My setup is a little different than yours, with a t3/t4 .63 ar, so a lower boost threshold, but when I went from my original turbo exhaust setup which was a 2.5" downpipe mated to an oem cat (which is 2.5" in, to 2.25" out) mated to 2.25" piping going to a resonator and then an oem vr rear muffler, I swapped it out for a 3" downpipe and full 3" exhaust with high-flow cat, no resonator, and one 3" in/out muffler, my original setup was NOT that restrictive as compared to my new one, or maybe as compared to what you are dealing with, and I imagine that I was dealing with a lot more back-pressure than you, with my 2.25" stuff in there. I'm just wondering about that shaft play, and I know that they are telling you it's fine, but, it seems like a lot more movement than I would be happy with. I just wonder if it is affecting the performance at all.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> You could always remove one thing at a time and run it each time to test and see.
> 
> My setup is a little different than yours, with a t3/t4 .63 ar, so a lower boost threshold, but when I went from my original turbo exhaust setup which was a 2.5" downpipe mated to an oem cat (which is 2.5" in, to 2.25" out) mated to 2.25" piping going to a resonator and then an oem vr rear muffler, I swapped it out for a 3" downpipe and full 3" exhaust with high-flow cat, no resonator, and one 3" in/out muffler, my original setup was NOT that restrictive as compared to my new one, or maybe as compared to what you are dealing with, and I imagine that I was dealing with a lot more back-pressure than you, with my 2.25" stuff in there. I'm just wondering about that shaft play, and I know that they are telling you it's fine, but, it seems like a lot more movement than I would be happy with. I just wonder if it is affecting the performance at all.


I agree with u...as much as a 2.5 is on on the smaller size for a vrt, there are many running it and don't have the problems I do. I'm def going to remove the muffler first and see if that affects anything. Next, I'm going to try and source some 440 injectors and swap those in with a 440 tune. Or, just buy a .63 ar housing. When do you hit full boost with the .63 ar housing? How much boost are u running? I'm just trying to see how much of a difference it would make as far as spooling goes. But then again, the thing spooled fast as hell running only dp and 440 injectors and tune so don't think it's the larger housing. Makes me think its the tune or a faulty injector or something. My idle is rough and bouncy...not smooth at all. And if I'm cruising and decide to go WOT, it hesitates, stumbles bucks for a second then smoothens out. It's extremely annoying actually.


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

just remove the muffler, for sure. dont worry about the tune. 


maybe?


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

gti vr6er said:


> I agree with u...as much as a 2.5 is on on the smaller size for a vrt, there are many running it and don't have the problems I do. I'm def going to remove the muffler first and see if that affects anything. Next, I'm going to try and source some 440 injectors and swap those in with a 440 tune. Or, just buy a .63 ar housing. When do you hit full boost with the .63 ar housing? How much boost are u running? I'm just trying to see how much of a difference it would make as far as spooling goes. But then again, the thing spooled fast as hell running only dp and 440 injectors and tune so don't think it's the larger housing. Makes me think its the tune or a faulty injector or something. My idle is rough and bouncy...not smooth at all. And if I'm cruising and decide to go WOT, it hesitates, stumbles bucks for a second then smoothens out. It's extremely annoying actually.




I'd have to look at my logs to verify exactly, but boost usually starts to come in at around 2500 or maybe a little higher, and I'm at full boost probably at around 4000. I can look at some logs tomorrow to verify. The boost maxes out between 14 and 15 psi (11 lb spring and a Boostvalves MBC). 

I will say that going to the 3" did help me reach max boost a bit more quickly, as did installing a turbo blanket and wrapping the top half of my downpipe, but not an extreme amount. 

If your idle is rough and bouncy, you might keep looking for vac leaks or something along those lines. What is your vac pressure and afr looking like during the crappy idle?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Soundwave_vr6 said:


> just remove the muffler, for sure. dont worry about the tune.
> 
> 
> maybe?


****, anything at this point wouldn't surprise me...even a nana stuck up in there lol


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> I'd have to look at my logs to verify exactly, but boost usually starts to come in at around 2500 or maybe a little higher, and I'm at full boost probably at around 4000. I can look at some logs tomorrow to verify. The boost maxes out between 14 and 15 psi (11 lb spring and a Boostvalves MBC).
> 
> I will say that going to the 3" did help me reach max boost a bit more quickly, as did installing a turbo blanket and wrapping the top half of my downpipe, but not an extreme amount.
> 
> If your idle is rough and bouncy, you might keep looking for vac leaks or something along those lines. What is your vac pressure and afr looking like during the crappy idle?


Well, vac on the boost gauge reads a steady 12 at idle which I'm told is quite normal(give or take). I know some get up to 16, 18 or even 20 but I'm told 12 is normal. Afr? Good question! I'd like to know as well. The bung is welded and I have the sensor with the wiring.,,I just have to get down there and install it. One more thing ill be learning as I go. 

On a side note, I've narrowed the bucking(almost the exact feeling of a bad plug wire...put put put put like a misfire when u step on it all of a sudden but I scanned with an vag ODBII scanner and no codes) to around 2800 rpm. Guess it happens anywhere between 2000-3000 rpm and sometimes sooner depending on how fast I step on it. It's ridiculous and the drivability of my car due to this is TERRIBLE. Now I'm not sure if the above symptom I mentioned is linked to the late spooling as well but...right now at this point...it seems like I have more of a problem than just late spooling. At least before the only problem was late spool...I never had this misfire-like bucking and hesitation. Feels almost like fuel cutting in and out. I really need to put that wideband in


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

12vacuum at idle is low...


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

PjS860ct said:


> 12vacuum at idle is low...


yup :thumbup:


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

PjS860ct said:


> 12vacuum at idle is low...


I was hoping I wouldn't get that response Im assuming a low vac reading and bouncy idle means a vac leak. Sux because I don't hear any obvious hissing and the vac line nipples for my Sri are literally under the mani so it's almost impossible to check the fittings or the entire lines. Ill see if I can get another smoke test after New Years to once and for all rule out any vac leaks. Anything else other than a vac leak that can cause low vac readings?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Well, I haven't removed the muffler yet. I'm kind of thinking its pointless since if it was THAT clogged the sound of the car would prob be noticeably different and its not. 

I'm chalking all the choppiness and loading up to just running pig rich(which I still have no idea what it could be other than the tune). Car guzzles gas, backfires and loads up like crazy. Now that's a whole separate issue than the late spool. 

Dubber...did you find those logs? The car is spooling so late that I'm just short of buying a new turbo and giving up on finding the true cause of the late spool. but if you're sure your numbers you posted above are pretty much accurate than Ill hand onto it and keep searching for the culprit. Although that shaft play has planted a seed in my head that the turbo is bad. Ahh...as you can see I'm very scatter brained right now. I need to sleep and wake up with a fresh head.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Oops...forgot to mention. I bought some 440's which should be here by 5th or 6th. I plan on swapping those out and retuning to the 440 tune and leaving it at that until we figure this problem out. At least that will(theoretically) solve the running rich and loading up problem at least. Then I can strictly focus on the late spool issue. Ill report back.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

'Well, I haven't removed the muffler yet. I'm kind of thinking its pointless since if it was THAT clogged the sound of the car would prob be noticeably different and its not' 

dont assume.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

That's what I was thinking...didn't the car run great when you took it out with the DP unhooked?

My log tells me that in third gear I'm seeing boost threshold at 2700 @ 55% throttle, ( and I'm at 100% throttle by 2900 rpm and upwards), and I'm hitting full boost of 14psi by 3500 rpms....


...was idling at 19" Hg...


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

If the car ran great with the exhaust removed, it's not the tune. 

The answer is staring you right in the face; not sure why your looking elsewhere.


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

Rod Ratio said:


> If the car ran great with the exhaust removed, it's not the tune.
> 
> The answer is staring you right in the face; not sure why your looking elsewhere.


this


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Seriously... Problem is found.. Fix the exhaust.

If you've found that your roof leaks; you don't attempt to fix it by painting your bathroom. That's just stupid..


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Rod Ratio said:


> Seriously... Problem is found.. Fix the exhaust.
> 
> If you've found that your roof leaks; you don't attempt to fix it by painting your bathroom. That's just stupid..


:beer: WOW, SO MUCH FAIL IN HERE....


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Big_Tom said:


> :beer: WOW, SO MUCH FAIL IN HERE....


Right!!?? 

Common sense > OP :facepalm:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Rod Ratio said:


> Right!!??
> 
> Common sense > OP :facepalm:


This :screwy: ic:


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Lol...I do have to agree that these issues have definitely impaired my normal sense of judgment. Although at times it does take one to point something out in order to really open your eyes. In this case, "mc flyyyyyy" lol

Anyhow, good news and bad news. 

Good news: 
car runs smooth as butter after swapping 440's in and uploading the 440 file. No more bogging, running crazy rich or hesitation problems anymore. No more crazy back fires either. 

Bad news: 
spool characteristics still the same. Vac reading still same(14 at idle warmed up, ~10-12 with heater one, ~20 on decel and partial throttle while cruising on highway). One thing I did notice is that unless I go WOT, I see no boost. I can literally drive normally the whole day and not hear the turbo spool. I'm normally at ~18-20 partial throttle/steady throttle and if I step on it barely makes it to 0psi. Not until I literally hold the pedal down for a couple seconds that it'll show >0. 

To do tomorrow: take the damn muffler off and disconnect the wastegate vac line and taking it for a drive to rule out the wastegate AGAIN. After removing the muffler, if it doesn't solve the problem I'm going to DC the whole exhaust from dp back because the resonator that's on my Techtonics piping seems pretty narrow and I think that could be potentially clogged. 

I'm normally extremely detail oriented as I'm a medical imaging specialist but common sense>me at times with all this. My brain is a over the place with this so bare with me guys.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Forgot to add that ill be doing a ANOTHER compression test just to make sure the motors still healthy after all the god damn backfiring and running stupid rich. Secondly, I'm gonna do another smoke test to verify no leaks since the last one a few months ago.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

I just saw on YouTube that an exhaust restriction can lower your vacuum at idle.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

gti vr6er said:


> To do tomorrow: take the damn muffler off and disconnect the wastegate vac line and taking it for a drive to rule out the wastegate AGAIN.


I strongly recommend not attempting to boost with the signal line disconnected from the wastegate, until after you've ruled out that an exhaust restriction isn't the cause of your issue; if you do both at the same time, and an exhaust restriction is the cause of your issue, you could over-boost in a hurry.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

BLSport said:


> I strongly recommend not attempting to boost with the signal line disconnected from the wastegate, until after you've ruled out that an exhaust restriction isn't the cause of your issue; if you do both at the same time, and an exhaust restriction is the cause of your issue, you could over-boost in a hurry.


Ok ill def do the exhaust test first. Thx for the headsup! Ya I was gonna be really careful anyhow..was gonna just watch the gauge and let off at about 10. I suppose I'd know for sure by 2nd gear. Thx though👍


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> I just saw on YouTube that an exhaust restriction can lower your vacuum at idle.


Ya I suppose we'll find out if its the cause in my particular case. Told the short runner causes vac readings to drop a bit too.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Question. Can the little bit of shaft play cause late spool? I was thinking about how the turbo works and it seems reasonable to assume that at lower rpm there's less exhaust gases spinning the turbine thus lowering the work load of the compressor....if there's a bit of wobble in the shaft and not enough exhaust gasses to force it to spin more efficiently, that the little bit of shaft play would in theory be more pronounced at lower rpm vs higher rpm. And if this is correct, it would explain why the turbo feels inefficient at lower rpm's and efficient in higher rpm's with throttle pegged. Woukdnt the shaft play cause turbulence thus requiring more exhaust gasses to spin freely? Can anyone verify if I'm correct or explain to me the affect of a loose shaft on air velocity and dynamics in the turbocharger?


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

stop thinking so hard and go saw off your muffler


:beer:


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

gti vr6er said:


> Question. Can the little bit of shaft play cause late spool? I was thinking about how the turbo works and it seems reasonable to assume that at lower rpm there's less exhaust gases spinning the turbine thus lowering the work load of the compressor....if there's a bit of wobble in the shaft and not enough exhaust gasses to force it to spin more efficiently, that the little bit of shaft play would in theory be more pronounced at lower rpm vs higher rpm. And if this is correct, it would explain why the turbo feels inefficient at lower rpm's and efficient in higher rpm's with throttle pegged. Woukdnt the shaft play cause turbulence thus requiring more exhaust gasses to spin freely? Can anyone verify if I'm correct or explain to me the affect of a loose shaft on air velocity and dynamics in the turbocharger?


Jesus fvcking Christ man! You found the problem a long time ago. Swap your muffler, and get on with your life:screwy:


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## trouble1mk (Sep 25, 2005)

Have you fix your car? was there more problem other than clogged exhaust?


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