# To GTI brakes or not to GTI brakes?



## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Ok so i know this is technically the 2.5L forum but really its more of a rabbit forum than anything else lol.

So heres the situation im in. My back brakes are shot, need to be changed (surprise surprise). I want to do the gti upgrade but my winter tires are on 15in steelies. Which means not only would i have to buy new brakes i would have to buy new wheels and tires as well. Definitely not in the budget.

My question is, well, what would you guys do? I was thinking do the rear upgrade and leave the stock fronts until summer. And when i put my summers tires back on ill switch over the fronts. Would this mess with abs or make the car really unstable under hard brakeing? The logic in my head says it has a chance of being fine or being really dangerous. 

Also, to anyone that has done the GTI upgrade. Is it worth it? Where did you find the new caliper carriers and dust shields? Would just doing an upgrade to the stock sized ones (ie. better pads and rotors) be a better way to go? that way i can do them all at once.

Last but not least in the monster post, ss brake lines. Are they a worth while investment? People are all over the map about this and i could use some more opinions. They seem rather expensive for what they do.

Thanks for any help that can be given.
Derek


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

While I cannot attest to pads and rotors on my MkV as I have yet to do any sort of brake upgrade, I can tell you that I've driven other cars with braided lines and new pads and it makes a huge difference. I've driven a Subie that had lines and Hawk pads on it and man the thing braked even harder than before. There is no fade whatsoever on the car as compared to what it was. And as I've helped the buddy clean his car, with nice and spokey BBS, I appreciate the low dust they throw, as tooth brushing his wheels is a PITA.

Personally I intend on moving to GTI brakes/maybe Cayenne brakes at some point in the future when funds provide for two sets of 18's, but as of right now I'm sitting totally stock. Make a post after you decide to let us all know if the feeling is that much better.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

Ecs tuning has a "big brake kit" that it larger carriers and rotors that use the stock calipers which is alot cheaper of a route...if you want better pads go with ebc or hawk pads ...personally I think stock are fine if your not going turbo and as far a ss brake lines that is sort of a if you wanna type deal like I said unless you plan on putting a lot of power to the ground and needing to stop pretty fast or if you plan on playing at the track a good bit 

Sent from my Droid Incredible


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_V--2.5/Braking/Big_Brake_OEM/

this will help you out buddy


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

This car will not likely ever see a turbo under my ownership. Not that i dont want it, i just cant afford it. It will see more than stock power and i like driving it hard and late brakeing and having fun. Which is why id like to do the upgrade. Right now im leaning towards doing a full gti upgrade to the back with vented rotors and ebc pads. And once summer rolls around ill do the same treatment to the fronts when i put bigger wheels on. Good lord would i love to have that Porsche kit though it makes my pants happy. Dont really want to drop 2+gs on it and still have to buy 2 sets of wheels though lol. Not to mention 18s would probably get trashed with the roads i have to drive on.

Thanks for the help guys. Any other opinions or suggestions are more than welcome.

Edit, i suppose i dont know for sure and im just assuming that you can put a 15 on the rear gti brakes. Can anyone verify?


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## b1aCkDeA7h (May 27, 2008)

I think ECS also has stock sized (260 mm) Schwaben replacement rotors available too. $40 or $50 if memory serves.

And yeah, GTI rears are the same size as Rabbit fronts, 286 mm, so 15's will clear GTI rear brakes.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

let me start by saying: 
-i have oem size drilled/slotted rotors (front and rear)
-Hawk pads (front, rear)
-tyrol sport brake bushings. (front only)

ok, so i have upgraded my brakes... the way I see it, you can never over do the brakes! lol... i rather stop than not... right?

anyways... no lines here, not just yet. on tax returns i plan on bigger brakes, front GLI and rear .:R32.
and sometime later on, i'll do porsche boxter brakes (front only, rears mean too much moddding, and maybe sacrificing the e-brake, hence the .:R32 rears) since the boxter's are aluminum (lightwheight) 4 pistons (performance) monoblock (easier to ensamble, less parts to fail) and most of all, it uses the GLI rotors. 
which is why imma do it by parts.

all in all. NO, swapping brakes WONT mess with your ABS.
since you want to keep it stock, and i suppose no track/autoX either, then just go better brakes (slotted with some good pads)

in my experience, i LOVE braking when i want, where i want. and in all honesty, because of the brakes improvements i have saved myself from a couple accidents, in which i put the brakes to their limits, and well... everything is in one piece! 

dont go gli/gti brakes if you cant afford it, or if there is no justification. trust me, better brakes oem size are just fine for most daily/ spirited driving affairs....

lol, i could go on and on talking about brake experiences...! lol

hope it helps


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

thygreyt said:


> let me start by saying:
> -i have oem size drilled/slotted rotors (front and rear)
> -Hawk pads (front, rear)
> -tyrol sport brake bushings. (front only)
> ...


I totally agree here dude. I've autox'ed with stock brakes (hawk pads, stock rotors), and honestly, I've never had an issue with them... They serve me properly. (I could still lock them up after 5 runs with minimal time between laps). I'm gonna be a sissy and upgrade to better rotors and such, but I'm making the debate myself as far as being turbo'ed. I honestly think better rotors/fluid would make the car happy, even with the turbo, but I'm probably gonna do the GTI brakes to be safe. 

The stock GTI rears will clear 15in. wheels, it's the fronts that require the 16in. wheel.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah it will probably see minimal if any track but i drive it like im autoxing every day lol. Its fun stopping late and rushing corners. I agree with thygreyt, cant over do brakes. Thats why i am interested in this, fairly cheap mod and ive gotta change the brakes anyways. So whats the big deal if i change the carrier at the same time. Is my thought anyways.

So far the consensus is go for the gti upgrade and do slotted/drilled with upgraded pads?

And just to clarify i do mean im doing the rears now and the fronts later, shouldnt cause any issues right?


Thanks for clarifying that TeamZleep.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

no issues whatsoever.

however, not much gains either... after all, most of OUR braking is in the front.

edit: to do the rears buy this kit, since it comes with everything needed to work, including the shields, except the pads.

and, i like teamzleep have Hawk HPS, amazing.

and i believe that slotted is good! (i'll choose slotted rotors for the next upgrade)


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## rabbitransit (Feb 18, 2007)

If you live in the snow belt and run winter tires, I don't think you will be able to use 15" steelies anymore.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

I was thinking id like to use that kit but im not too sure about the ecs rotors, they look kind of like they are just oem with some cuts in them lol. I might try to find the carriers and shields at a wreckers and go with ebc rotors and pads.

Yes, ill have to change my winter setup for next year for sure.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

I've been trolling the scrap yards thinking about building my own BBK. I'm liking this sound of the Boxster front brake upgrade, I think I'll have to look into this idea. Only issue I'd be running into is the winters and roads here are brutal, running 18's year round would be brutal. Cost mad coin just to do that. I'm thinking I might build myself bigger brakes slowly by getting stuff from crashed GTI's and stuff.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

here is the thread with the info for the boxter brakes
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4922910-GTI-Brake-upgrade


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

DerekH said:


> Ok so i know this is technically the 2.5L forum but really its more of a rabbit forum than anything else lol.
> 
> So heres the situation im in. My back brakes are shot, need to be changed (surprise surprise). I want to do the gti upgrade but my winter tires are on 15in steelies. Which means not only would i have to buy new brakes i would have to buy new wheels and tires as well. Definitely not in the budget.
> 
> ...


I haven't done it yet but several people on the vwownersclub forum have and they all seem happy with the improvement (especially with the right pads). There's even a DIY over there.

ECSTuning.com has the best deals on the parts. 
I plan on doing it if my brakes every actually wear out. (I'm at 43K and the rears still have plenty of meat on them). I'll be doing plain rotors as sloted/drilled are pointless for a daily driver unless you like wearing out your pads faster and/or making more dust.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Yo man check out ebay and also the FS threads for the Mk5 on here and you should be able to piece this kit together for cheaper then you could get the front and rears from ECS. That is if you'd like the red calipers like me haha. I got my fronts off of ebay and the rears off a guy on here who parts out crashed cars. Also bought used rotors, zimmerman pads and lines off a guy on here and all in all only spent around 500. If your just looking to upgrade to the GTI carriers and use your stock calipers then ECS will prolly be better. Im waiting for my rears to get bad again and then Ill probably swap the GTI ones on when I change those. Also, the rear GTI rotors aren't vented as you had mentioned before, only the fronts are. R32 rear brakes on the other hand are vented in the rear. Just an fyi.


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

tay272 said:


> Yo man check out ebay and also the FS threads for the Mk5 on here and you should be able to piece this kit together for cheaper then you could get the front and rears from ECS. That is if you'd like the red calipers like me haha. I got my fronts off of ebay and the rears off a guy on here who parts out crashed cars. Also bought used rotors, zimmerman pads and lines off a guy on here and all in all only spent around 500. If your just looking to upgrade to the GTI carriers and use your stock calipers then ECS will prolly be better. Im waiting for my rears to get bad again and then Ill probably swap the GTI ones on when I change those. Also, the rear GTI rotors aren't vented as you had mentioned before, only the fronts are. R32 rear brakes on the other hand are vented in the rear. Just an fyi.


Calipers are the exact same between the GTI and Rabbit other than the color. If you want red just paint them instead.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

they are talking about the calipper carrier


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> they are talking about the calipper carrier


He spent $500 on used rotors, lines, and pads/cariers? Ouch. Looked like he was including the calipers as he refers to liking the red ones and mentions " If your just looking to upgrade to the GTI carriers and use your stock calipers then ECS will prolly be better."


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

Dude, You'd honestly be better off buying a good quality brake pad, good rotors (slotted work well), and bleed the system with better brake fluid. 

It'll honestly be more than enough for the car. Most people don't realize how well the stock brakes work (with just pads, mind you), and over half of them use them to their fullest. If it's a better brake pedal "feel" you want, get the tyrol bushings. 

But for real as per the OG post, the rear upgrade isn't gonna hurt brake performance, may throw the balance off a bit, but not really noticeable, and it'll clear the 15in steelies.


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

TeamZleep said:


> and it'll clear the 15in steelies.


According to someone I trust, 15inch Rabbit steelies will not clear the rear GTI brake upgrade. 
He has a 2008 Rabbit, tried mounting the 15" steel wheel and it didn't clear.

http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/20844-DIY-MKV-Rabbit-Rear-Brakes-GTI-Brake-swap.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Not really into the red, too much flash. Im not interested in attracting extra attention to myself lol. Ill probably spray them with barbecue paint just to keep them from rusting and looking like crap. Tomorrows project is trying to find the carriers and dust shields at a wreckers. Might be fun, anyone know what bit it is to take them off if its a 'u pull' place?


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

seanmcd72 said:


> According to someone I trust, 15inch Rabbit steelies will not clear the rear GTI brake upgrade.
> He has a 2008 Rabbit, tried mounting the 15" steel wheel and it didn't clear.
> 
> http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/20844-DIY-MKV-Rabbit-Rear-Brakes-GTI-Brake-swap.


I know they wont in the front, im assuming they will in the rear though.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

rear should be fine, unless you do .:R32


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

I wish i could do R32 . 

Some people in this forum are saying it will and some are saying it wont. http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/s...GTI-Brake-swap.

Im so confused. Maybe ill try putting my 15in spare on the back of my dads 2.0t jetta and see if it clears.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

seanmcd72 said:


> According to someone I trust, 15inch Rabbit steelies will not clear the rear GTI brake upgrade.
> He has a 2008 Rabbit, tried mounting the 15" steel wheel and it didn't clear.
> 
> http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/20844-DIY-MKV-Rabbit-Rear-Brakes-GTI-Brake-swap.


Well then I stand corrected. It's just silly that it doesn't clear, being that they not only are the same size as the rabbit fronts, but the fact that it's a solid rotor, and is thinner... Hmmm...


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

In that thread link, some dude tried, but the caliper hit the steelie.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

seanmcd72 said:


> He spent $500 on used rotors, lines, and pads/cariers? Ouch. Looked like he was including the calipers as he refers to liking the red ones and mentions " If your just looking to upgrade to the GTI carriers and use your stock calipers then ECS will prolly be better."


I know they all have the same caliper and no I bought the calipers and carriers and everything else mentioned for that much. I think it was a pretty good deal. I just didnt feel like having to paint them myself and wait a day for the paint to dry. This way I can swap in the painted ones and then sell my entire Rabbit brake setup and make some money back.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

So looks like im going to be going with stock sizes for now, probably do front and back at the same time if thats the case. And might as well go with ebc yellows while im at it. It will probably still be a pretty sweet upgrade. I cant really see the gti brakes being a big upgrade anyways because its the same amount of contact area. just moved out a very small amount.

Something like R32 brakes or the boxter would be a big difference because of the larger contact area and more clamping force. Still wish i could do it but it doesnt look like its gonna happen this time around.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

Hey man, don't sweat it. The prices of BBK's are outrageous! Just upgrade what you have currently and piece the BBK together, one piece at a time. That's what I'll be doing.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

TeamZleep said:


> Hey man, don't sweat it. The prices of BBK's are outrageous! Just upgrade what you have currently and piece the BBK together, one piece at a time. That's what I'll be doing.


Thats the plan, i really wanted to save this money for new wheels and tires in the summer but i guess that will have to wait a little while. This will be a fun mod and its gonna have to be done so i might as well do it now.


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

i was in the same situation recently, and just ended up going Hawk Pads + Zimmerman (OEM) rotors, with upgraded fluid. braking is significantly nicer than it was before, and even if you spent the extra bills for slotted rotors its doubtful you'll ever be able to notice a difference, except for the look. SS lines on top of this setup will provide a firmer pedal and significantly reduce fade. I didn't go with the SS lines mainly due to price, but used to have them in my Audi. 

even if you modify the engine and increase power, you're not going to need anything more than OEM+ as far as brakes unless you're autocrossing. our car simply doesn't have enough power to really make a difference, and you probably shouldn't be trying to brake late and hard anyway...just not exactly safe driving. i LOVE the hawk pads too BTW, virtually no dust and fade is reduced.


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

honestly, the name of the game is "friction". I had an e36 M3 with Handful of power-Vortech supercharger, headers, exhaust, cams, etc...-I upgraded to stainless steel brake lines, ATE Super Blue, Slotted rotors and Pagid pads. Car would stop on a dime. Took it on some few autocrosses, never seen that much brake fade. 
It is where, and how you are going to drive the car. I would upgrade to stainless steel lines, slotted rotors and good pads.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

eatrach said:


> honestly, the name of the game is "friction". I had an e36 M3 with Handful of power-Vortech supercharger, headers, exhaust, cams, etc...-I upgraded to stainless steel brake lines, ATE Super Blue, Slotted rotors and Pagid pads. Car would stop on a dime. Took it on some few autocrosses, never seen that much brake fade.
> It is where, and how you are going to drive the car. I would upgrade to stainless steel lines, slotted rotors and good pads.


xEleventybillion.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Gonna go with adams or ebc rotors and probably ebc reds or hawks hp+ pads.

Im struggling with the idea of spending the money on ss lines. Seems like more money than they should be for what they do and what you get. Plus you then have to do quite a bit more work.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Ok, so finally got my brakes and went to put them on at my friends place. Hes got a lift and a sweet setup in his garage. Unfortunately he diddnt have the right socket for the rear caliper carriers. Ive read on here 14mm triple square but he is saying it says 10mm in his tool book. Can anyone that has done the rear brakes on a rabbit please speak up and let me know what the correct socket is?

It looks like 14mm to me but i havnt seen a whole lot of that style of bolt so im really not sure.

Thanks
Derek


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

I have a 3/8th mini breaker bar with sharp edges that I managed to use and it fit in perfectly and worked great. I tried a ratchet, but it was going to strip the teeth in the triple square bolt because of it's shape.









Will work. Notice the sharp edges on the tip of the head?









Won't work.


Or you could order a 14mm triple square bit.:beer:


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Awesome, thanks.


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

on the MKV GLI it's a 14mm triple square bit, and i've read the same for the rabbit while doing research, as i need to swap out my rear pads and rotors soon as well.

if you were to go with GTI brakes, you need to add a part onto the rabbit's caliper to make it a bit larger...anyone know what part number this is? (it's for the front calipers, the same part that ECS tuning sells in their GTI brake upgrade kit for the rabbit)


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

LampyB said:


> on the MKV GLI it's a 14mm triple square bit, and i've read the same for the rabbit while doing research, as i need to swap out my rear pads and rotors soon as well.
> 
> if you were to go with GTI brakes, you need to add a part onto the rabbit's caliper to make it a bit larger...anyone know what part number this is? (it's for the front calipers, the same part that ECS tuning sells in their GTI brake upgrade kit for the rabbit)


The part is called a caliper carrier, i dont know the part number but if you call a dealership and ask for a GTI brake caliper carrier im sure they will be able to get it for you. Your best bet to get one cheap is from a wreckers though. I diddnt go through with the brake upgrade because i would have to get bigger snow tires as well and its just not in the budget right now unfortunately.

MJM set me up with a full set of powerslot rotors and hps pads for 450. Ill be doing a review when i get the rears in and have a chance to give them some abuse


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## Schrottplatzer (Jun 13, 2009)

*Real Autobahn experience*

I did the ECS GLI brakes on the front (Jetta have 2.5s too!) and love it. I'm in Germany for a few years and take the car on hours long trips in the 100-130mph range on the autobahn where braking is VERY important--especially at 130mph in a turn. 

The only upgrade to the brakes is the ECS drilled and slotted GLI kit--no pad change, no line change and they are GREAT! If I can stop a Jetta from 130mph I'm sure a Rabbit in the US would be more than happy.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

sounds great!

thanks for sharing the experience. i'll be sure to buy the upgrade sooon enough.


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## spitpilot (Feb 14, 2000)

I did the GTI upgrade on both front and rear axles...
Fronts are a piece of cake...all you need is GTI carriers and of course the 312mm rotors...dust shields calipers lines etc are all the same on GTI and stock Rabbit.....
Rears a bit of a PITA...you need to change dust shields as well as carriers and rotors.which means pullin the rear stub axles..and you need the following to do this job right:
14 and 18 mm triple square bits..14 for carrire bolts, 18 for axle bolt...its super important that you get a really short small 14mm bit since rear suspension parts cramp working area and of course you must get a straight shot at the bolt heads with the bit to avoid strippin out the star pattern! I got my bit from "Metalnerd" website...way cheaper and smaller than my SnapOn bit.
Carrier bolts and axle bolts are locked by stretch torquing...DO NOT reuse these bolts...Stretch troqing takes the bolts into the yield zone of their steel....doing that a second time increases chances of stress cracking failure of the bolts....look on the 2.0L engine forum for threads about "crank pulley flew off"..from guys who reused the stretch torqued pulley bolt on their engines!
The GTI brake set up uses stock calipers...so with stock pads (same grip power) you get about a 10% increase in braking torque (the rotors are 10% or so bigger..same force X 10% larger torque radius= 10% increase in brake torque).....Not gonna throw you into your shoulder belt..but feels a bit more powerfull.... I got my parts off the Vortex classifieds...whole new GTI front set up...so I changed calipers to get "boy racer red" look For rears I just bought a set of used carriers and left calipers stock.:thumbup:


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## vw93to85 (May 10, 2007)

I'm running the cross drilled and slotted rotors from North American Motorsports and Hawk pads. The rotors pretty much refuse to warp. Not sure what they coat the rotors with but they don't rust either.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

DerekH said:


> Thats the plan, i really wanted to save this money for new wheels and tires in the summer but i guess that will have to wait a little while. This will be a fun mod and its gonna have to be done so i might as well do it now.


I'm sorry I didn't check this thread out sooner, your money would have been much better spent on tires and just replacing the rear pads. Everyone needs to keep in mind that it isn't your brakes that stop the car, it's the tires. The OEM brakes have way more than plenty clamping force to lock up all the wheels even with stock pads, what will make you stop faster is stickier tires. Now if you are doing track days you definitely do want to upgrade your brakes to resist fade but even just bleeding out your OEM brake fluid and replacing it with a high temp fluid like ATE Superblue will yield a huge improvement to fade resistance. Bigger brakes won't make you stop any faster, you can say things like "I put a BBK on my -insert car here- and it stops in half the distance!" all day but you'd be wrong. Simple physics, if your brakes can hold the rotor then all the stopping is done by the tires and there is no changing that. I'll say it again, upgrading your brakes a lot will only help reduce fade. Slapping bigger brakes on your front wheels can hinder performance as well by increasing unsprung weight and rotational mass. Spend your money on good tires and your stopping will improve, simple as that.

Upgrading the rears is next to pointless as well, when you stop all the weight transfers to the front of the car and that's where up to 95% of the braking is done. The OEM rears are vastly more than capable of keeping up without any modification.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Both the rotors and the pads were shot, i wouldnt have been comfortable with just replacing the pads. I got a good deal on the rotors and pads and i had a friend help me install them. so it diddnt cost as much as i was expecting. Im very happy with the results so far, once they bed in a little more im going to abuse them a bit and write up a review.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

right on, I must have missed that the rotors were shot too. Reading comprehension > me. I was just trying to get the word out there to really put some consideration into what kind of improvement you're really getting for the money. And with the exception of putting heavy components on your drive wheels you really can't go wrong with upgrading your brakes. All it takes is for them to fail once and you can be in huuuuge trouble!


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

DerekH said:


> MJM set me up with a full set of powerslot rotors and hps pads for 450. Ill be doing a review when i get the rears in and have a chance to give them some abuse


Sweet deal dude, I got ATE slotted rotors/ATE superblue and hwaks for 450-460ish. I'm honestly happier than a pig in sh*t. Stops the Turbo'ed Bunny just fine.


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

jettafan[atic] said:


> Everyone needs to keep in mind that it isn't your brakes that stop the car, it's the tires


Try unhooking all 4 brake lines and see how well you stop with real sticky tires!


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

seanmcd72 said:


> Try unhooking all 4 brake lines and see how well you stop with real sticky tires!


:facepalm:


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## brian81 (Apr 19, 2007)

jettafan[atic] said:


> I'm sorry I didn't check this thread out sooner, your money would have been much better spent on tires and just replacing the rear pads. Everyone needs to keep in mind that it isn't your brakes that stop the car, it's the tires. The OEM brakes have way more than plenty clamping force to lock up all the wheels even with stock pads, what will make you stop faster is stickier tires........ Simple physics, if your brakes can hold the rotor then all the stopping is done by the tires and there is no changing that. I'll say it again, upgrading your brakes a lot will only help reduce fade.
> 
> Upgrading the rears is next to pointless as well, when you stop all the weight transfers to the front of the car and that's where up to 95% of the braking is done. The OEM rears are vastly more than capable of keeping up without any modification.


 My son has been driving a '10 Golf 2.5 in D.C. and the surrounding area. It has an H & R Touring Cup kit (1.2" drop and original ride quality) and Conti ExtremeContact tires on VW Bioline 16" wheels. The car performs amazingly, but last summer we swapped to the ECS upgrade f/R with Hawk HPS pads and stainless lines. My son who I trust due to 3 Barber school sessons (7 days) track experience said that in Beltway traffic and in the VA/MD hills the original brakes faded out way too soon. The difference is night and day. In normal driving, the car _does_ stop shorter, and at a lapping day at Lime Rock we didn't notice much difference in performance when they got hot. 

My thoughts on any 2.5's that are going to be driven hard (and 2.0t Wolfburgs) is tires first, then the ECS kit. Leave the originals to the diesel guys.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

brian81 said:


> My son has been driving a '10 Golf 2.5 in D.C. and the surrounding area. It has an H & R Touring Cup kit (1.2" drop and original ride quality) and Conti ExtremeContact tires on VW Bioline 16" wheels. The car performs amazingly, but last summer we swapped to the ECS upgrade f/R with Hawk HPS pads and stainless lines. My son who I trust due to 3 Barber school sessons (7 days) track experience said that in Beltway traffic and in the VA/MD hills the original brakes faded out way too soon. The difference is night and day. In normal driving, the car _does_ stop shorter, and at a lapping day at Lime Rock we didn't notice much difference in performance when they got hot.
> 
> My thoughts on any 2.5's that are going to be driven hard (and 2.0t Wolfburgs) is tires first, then the ECS kit. Leave the originals to the diesel guys.


 If he rides the brakes or normally stops pretty hard and/or frequently then yest the normal brakes can fade. He definitely may notice shorter stopping distances as well. Both would most likely be caused by having bad brake fluid before. The fluid that comes stock isn't close to a high temp fluid like ATE Superblue for example. Over time water can get into the brake fluid and trash it's boiling point. A much cheaper fix would be to bleed the brakes and use new fluid. 

I'm not trying to say anything negative about your sons driving or anything like that but the fact is that our stock brakes are more than large enough to fully lock up all four wheels through multiple panic stops. They have to be to pass regulations. That doesn't mean that they won't get worse over time but the answer isn't necessarily going to be an overhaul of your braking setup. Something else to keep in mind when looking at braking needs is that stickier, grippier tires that will stop the car sooner will also generate more heat and lead to fading quicker. I would absolutely 100% suggest for everyone that is going to drive their car hard at any point to upgrade pads and fluid but for 99% of us that will be plenty. Upgrading rotors calipers, lines etc... is overkill for normal use.


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