# Fuel delivery problem, immediate & total failure 3.0tdi ?000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure P0087 - 012 - Too Low?



## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

*Fuel delivery problem, immediate & total failure 3.0tdi “000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure P0087 - 012 - Too Low”*

Hello all
As some will know, I have been the happy owner of a Nov 2007 (MY2008) 3.0tdi, and up until today, has provided 85,000 miles for problem free motoring.
With zero warning, the engine failed while driving (slowly) this afternoon. No warning lights, no misfire: nothing. I coasted to a safe stop and attempted restart, a hesitant run at very low rpm, but no response to throttle, died in < 5 seconds after a few attempts, it was clearly not going to run. 
Suspicion was failed fuel supply 
Lifted home by the AA, and ran VCDS. As expected a “000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure P0087 - 012 - Too Low”
What does this mean? Where are the fuel pumps, and is there anything I can do to narrow down the problem. 
Due to the super reliability I have experienced, I don’t have great expertise in VCDS.
Thanks
Hugh Dublin

Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Control Module Part Number: 3D0 907 401 D HW: 3D0 907 401 D
Component and/or Version: 3.0TDI EDC17G100AG 0050
Software Coding: 0406002C190F0160
Work Shop Code: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 20451E69F0D8C29
1 Fault Found:

000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure 
P0087 - 012 - Too Low
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01101100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 138159 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2012.10.14
Time: 14:01:36

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 651 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Pressure: 752.6 bar
Temperature: 31.5°C
Pressure: 227.2 bar
(no units): 4.0
Bin. Bits: 00110100


Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Irish Phaeton said:


> Hello all
> As some will know, I have been the happy owner of a Nov 2007 (MY2008) 3.0tdi, and up until today, has provided 85,000 miles for problem free motoring.
> With zero warning, the engine failed while driving (slowly) this afternoon. No warning lights, no misfire: nothing. I coasted to a safe stop and attempted restart, a hesitant run at very low rpm, but no response to throttle, died in < 5 seconds after a few attempts, it was clearly not going to run.
> Suspicion was failed fuel supply
> ...


Hi Hugh,

prime suspect would be the high pressure fuel pump sensor, failing that the pump itself (unlikely) or a glitch (hopeful)! Worst case scenario it could be cam followers (bad news)! (sorry)

Personally I'd start with new fuel filter and a new sensor and keep everything crossed.

Someone else with more knowledge of the "hairdryer" will no doubt have a more in depth answer!

Sincerely though good luck Hugh.

Stu


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi,
BY the looks of the fault it seems that there is not fuel pressure within the fuel rails, so have a look a the following explanation:
The high pressure pump is located at the front in the middle of the V. If you remove the engine cover, you will see it. It looks like a black mushroom and it sits sligtly behind and below the intake manifold. There is an electrical connector there, make sure that it is not loose.
From it, there are two pressure pipes that run to each pressure rail. The rails are located on top of each cilinder head cover. In the middle of one of the rails there is a pressure sensor, check the connectors, just in case they became loose. At the end of the other rail there is a pressure regulating valve, check the electrical connector too. If this valve fails, pressure cannot be maintained inside the rail, and the engine will die. So it could be the culprit.
Have a look at the pipes that run from the fuel rails to each injector, just in case there is a leak somewhere.
The high pressure pump receives fuel from the fuel filter. It is a black can with several hoses connected to its silver top cover. There is an additional pump that feeds the fuel filter, it is a silver canister located nearby the fuel filter. Check the electrical connectors as well.
The fuel lines that run from the fuel tank to the additional pump run at the bottom of the car body, on the right hand side. They are blue coloured, if I am not wrong, and are about 10mm in diameter. Check that none of them are squeezed, or that there is a fuel leakage along them.
If you want to inspect the main fuel pumps, you have to remove the spare wheel cover. Ahead of the spare wheel well there are two dark grey saucer like covers. If you remove them, you will then access the top of the pumps. Check for loose electrical connectors or fuel leaks around that area. 
I hope it all helps. 
Best of luck.

Gabriel


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Stu/ Gabriel
thanks for those suggestions. I was planning to "work from home" tomorrow anyhow, so I now know what I will be doing. I somehow suspect the pump in the tank, I can see the tops as described.
I did pull the engine cover while waiting for the AA, and all looked normal: clean & dry.
It's now getting dark and


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Evening Hugh,
I forgot to mentioned the easyest of all checking procedures...
Before start dismantling bits and bobs, it is worth checking the fuses and relays first . I seem to recall that the fuel pumps related ones are on the left of the luggage compartment at the electronics box.

Gabriel


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

I did check the fuel pump fuse on the roadside (fuse table mentions L&R, in the thirties) but only one on my tdi, it was OK. Will look at the relays tomorrow.
Again, my gut somehow suggests something "simple" due to lack of warning or previous symptoms.

Gerry


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Irish Phaeton said:


> Again, my gut somehow suggests something "simple" due to lack of warning or previous symptoms.


Hi Gerry,

Something simple is to clear the DTC's. Your scan says that the fault is "intermittent" which means that it happened only once.
When you clear the DTC's, the readiness is reset to all 1111 1111 (except for those functions you do not have). When you drive the car for a day or two, then the ECU automatically will adapt itself. When there are no further problems, you may experience a better engine feel. When there ARE problems, 
readiness can't be set within the factory limits and the CEL then will light. When you make a scan when this has happened, possibly some more information rolls out of the scan.

Another possibility is checking the various fuel pressure in Measuring Blocks. Normally, this limits are given in the VCDS as well, so they are easy to check. First check with engine running stationary. Increase throttle, and pressure increases. Whatever you see, would be interesting to know, but the first priority is clearing the DTC's and run the car to complete the readiness cycle.

Willem


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

No hiss when you open the fuel filler cap? (ie negative pressure).

Chris


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

All
thanks for the input, a small update. I took off the fuel filter lid in the engine compartment, popped it into a bowl and turned on the ignition. Lots of fuel pumped into the bowl in seconds. No obvious junk in the filter pot, so I must assume fuel is getting from the filter to the injection pump. 

I will have a closer look at the engine 
Thanks
Hugh


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> Hi,
> BY the looks of the fault it seems that there is not fuel pressure within the fuel rails, so have a look a the following explanation:
> The high pressure pump is located at the front in the middle of the V. If you remove the engine cover, you will see it. It looks like a black mushroom and it sits sligtly behind and below the intake manifold. There is an electrical connector there, make sure that it is not loose.
> From it, there are two pressure pipes that run to each pressure rail. The rails are located on top of each cilinder head cover. In the middle of one of the rails there is a pressure sensor, check the connectors, just in case they became loose. At the end of the other rail there is a pressure regulating valve, check the electrical connector too. If this valve fails, pressure cannot be maintained inside the rail, and the engine will die. So it could be the culprit.
> ...


Gabriel/ all
We have fuel pumped to the fuel filter area, I located and looked at the fuel filter, sensors and pipe work as described above in the injector area, and all look intact, clean & dry.

It looks like a trip to VW, but the trusted VW garage is 120 miles away. Local VW have suggested that it may be a failed injector, as even one failed injector can cause a problem like this. I would have thought that VCDS might have indicated an injector problem, if it was present?

Thanks
Hugh


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hello again,​ 
Googling a bit I came across this piece of information. It belongs to the Audi R8 but it might help a bit:

*P0087 Fuel Rail/System Pressure - Too Low.*
*Posible causes:*​ 
Fuel trim activity 0.90 - 1.15_ -> This is how much fuel the injection module adds/removes from the ideal ammount in order to hace balanced combustion among all the cilinders._
Output value rail pressure controller > 2 MPa _-> This is the minimum pressure within the pressure rail. That figure equals to 20bar but remember that this figure is for a petrol engine. (At iddle with a warm engine the pressure that my Phaeton displays on the VCDS measuring blocks is 298.2bar.)_
Difference between target and actual pressure > -16.38 bar _-> Self explanatory_​ 
So as we guessed, it all seems to indicate that there is a problem regarding pressurization on the high pressure side of the injection system.​ 

Gabriel​


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

All
a fairly depressing call from local VW garage just now. Apparently the injector pump is full of metal filings, and has destroyed itself, the injectors and associated components.

Projected repair bill, between Eu 5,000 and Eu 8,000

I need to think about this for a few moments....

Hugh


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Irish Phaeton said:


> All
> a fairly depressing call from local VW garage just now. Apparently the injector pump is full of metal filings, and has destroyed itself, the injectors and associated components.
> 
> Projected repair bill, between Eu 5,000 and Eu 8,000
> ...


Hugh,

please get part number of failed item asap I am away from thursday.

Stu


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

GOOD LORD!!!

And according to VW what was the cause of that self destruction mess?
I would say that it was due either to poor lubricity properties of the fuel, or to some sort of premature material wear of the high pressure pump internals.
If you regularly fill up the tank at the same station, it might be worth having a sample of the diesel fuel analysed and tested to check if it complies with EN 590 standard for diesel fuels.
Also, if you have a full service history, perhaps you can claim VW or Bosch to cover the repair.
Good luck anyway.

Gabriel


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> GOOD LORD!!!
> 
> And according to VW what was the cause of that self destruction mess?
> I would say that it was due either to poor lubricity properties of the fuel, or to some sort of premature material wear of the high pressure pump internals.
> ...


Gabriel
I am visiting the garage tomorrow to form an opinion. In Ireland we unfortunately do have a small but real criminal problem with "Diesel Laundering" whereby diesel fuel intended for farm use is "laundered" to remove the dye, thus making it appear as the higher tax road-use fuel. This process leaves residue that can damage fuel system components (not to mention potential damage to the environment from the toxic residue)
I purchase fuel from a variety of stations, but all mainstream branded stations, usually on the motorways. I would not have expected to have received any of this fuel in these stations.

Ironically, I just received an email from VW confirming that they would repair my small paintwork bubble and slightly corroded door mirrors would be replaced under warranty: 5 minutes later I get a quote for 5 to 8K for engine repair

You need a sense of humour sometimes…


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

There are only a few web results for the DTC you posted, but I researched them earlier today and most of them suggested Biodiesel as the 'main' cause (if that's statistically viable for so few events) of the pump destruction, which agrees with Gabriel's comment.

I sincerely hope you manage to find a good repair option, or perhaps VW might be prepared to discuss it, if they cover Eire and accept that properly specified fuel was used. That's a lot of 'ifs'.

Are you able to get a breakdown of the quote, in terms of parts list and labour?

Chris

Edit: I see that pumps list at £1100 + VAT and injectors at £370 + VAT (each) = £4000

But there's some reason for hope:
pump supplier £400


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

EnglishPhaeton said:


> Hugh,
> 
> please get part number of failed item asap I am away from thursday.
> 
> Stu


Stu
the main parts are 
V059130755BK PUMP
V059130277AN INJECTORS (X6)

Then a variety of fuel pipes in the engine compartment they suggest replacing
e.g V059130218Q FUEL HOSE

Effectively all the fuel system pipes are replaced ( other than tank-> engine compartment), and the system fully flushed, including tank removal. I have significantly lower quotes from an independent, but not sure the job is as thorough, and we might be storing up problems for the future. 
Regards
Hugh


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Irish Phaeton said:


> Stu
> the main parts are
> V059130755BK PUMP
> V059130277AN INJECTORS (X6)
> ...


Hugh,

I have sent you a IM

Stu


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

EnglishPhaeton said:


> Hugh,
> 
> I have sent you a IM
> 
> Stu


Hugh,

now I have sent the correct IM!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry I'm in holiday mode!

Stu


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

An update.
VW claim this catastrophic failure is "unprecedented" in the V6 tdi, yet despite strong emails, there was no contribution from VW goodwill fund. I was less than impressed, especially as I count at least 7 new VW or Audi cars I have purchased in the past decade for private use.
On a positive note (if there is one) the repair is warranted for 2 years, parts & labour as it’s within the VW network. Total bill (significantly discounted from list) Eu 6,700
An independent would have been cheaper, by up to 15% , but warranty would have been less certain and there were delays for Bosch parts, and logistics of moving the disabled car was messy.
Would I buy another VW/ Audi with a V6tdi? Not sure. This has for sure left a bad taste, but it is the only breakdown and only repair bill in 5 years (85K miles) of ownership, so maybe average is not so bad.
Away now for a week, so should be repaired on return.
Hugh

See below the €6,700 euro metal filings in the High Pressure Injector pump outlet









http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh609/FortyFivePlus/Pump_zpsa6b52452.jpg


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Hugh,
Do not take me wrong, but if I was you I would have a sample of the diesel fuel analysed. 
Now, relax sit in a cosy atmosphere and have a nice glass of Irish whiskey 
Cheers.

Gabriel


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> Hi Hugh,
> Do not take me wrong, but if I was you I would have a sample of the diesel fuel analysed.
> Now, relax sit in a cosy atmosphere and have a nice glass of Irish whiskey
> Cheers.
> ...


Middleton Old Rare, a little goes a long way...

Yes, the fuel. I was looking back at VISA statements to see where recent fuel was purchased, and all are mainstream stations. I wonder if bad fuel will cause an immediate failure, or just make the odds worse in the long term. I suspect the latter.

Hugh


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## W12mike (Apr 13, 2005)

If water droplets, no matter how small, makes it past the fuel filter and in to the high pressure pump, there is immediate damage. Once tha damage has started the wear will accelerate, to the point where the engine will stop running.

This could happen even if the diesel quality is premium, IF the tank at the petrol station was contaminated.


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## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

Bosch Common Raiil Pump failures are getting all to common, the pumps are asked to produce crazy pressures whilst being lubricated with nothing more than Diesel, to make matters worse sulphur which acts as a lubricant in the fuel is being reduced - stay away from supermarket ultra low sulphur fuels!

The legal limit for lubricity in diesel in the Uk is exactly the same as the minimum recommended by Bosch for the pumps, leaving no margine for error, ie water or petrol contamination

Running out of fuel or accidentally filling with Petrol s a disaster for common rail pumps any reduction in lubricity is likely to lead to premature and rapid failure

Biodiesel is also a problem as it is more likely to absorb water in storage and use again reducing lubricity

I run a fleet of chauffeur vehicles inc 2 phaeton all equipped with Bosch Common Rail Pumps, having seen a Phaeton and 7 series BMW belonging to colleagues both suffer pump failures 2 yrs ago all our vehicles now get a shot of fuel additive and 500ml of 2 stroke oil added to the fuel each fill up

The Phaeton that suffered the pump failure had been run exclusively on Sainsburys ultra low sulphur diesel - am sure there's a lesson there somewhere !


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

That's very useful information. Do you have a preferred additive?

Chris


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## W12mike (Apr 13, 2005)

In EU there isnt any choise on disel fuel any more.
All diesel fuel must conform to EN590 = Ultra low sulphur diesel fulel.

A mix of bio (RME) in the fuel drastically increase the lubricity, actually beating all addives.
www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44499

The problem as I se it, is not the modern low sulphur diesel fuel, but rather the handling of it from refinery to the fuel tank in our cars. (contamination)


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## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

Stanadyne, but any that have water demulsifiers are prob good, also change the fuel filter every service as that is where water will collect

If you are going to try the 2 stroke make sure you buy the cheapest you can get, the high performance synthetics are designed not to burn off completely so as to give more lubrication to high revving bike or boat engines

My older phaeton 2008 3.0 tdi 233hp cara engine code absolutely loved the 2stroke noticeably quiter cold starts, smoother idle better throttle response and more torque 

The newer 240hp cars the effects are not so obvious but the engine is all those things over the older one anyway, still the injectors and pump are getting constantly nicely greased


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## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

W12mike said:


> In EU there isnt any choise on disel fuel any more.
> All diesel fuel must conform to EN590 = Ultra low sulphur diesel fulel.
> 
> A mix of bio (RME) in the fuel drastically increase the lubricity, actually beating all addives.
> ...


Hi Mike

It's fact that biodiesel is more hygroscopic than mineral diesel, unfortunately not only are we at the mercy of the supply chain, our own cars produce a fair amount of condensation in the tank mainly due to the fuel return from the engine being hot when it gets back to the tank.

Whatever fuel you are using changing the fuel filter very regularly makes a great deal of sense as its also a water separator


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## W12mike (Apr 13, 2005)

In the Phaeton we have a return fuel-cooler, and the design of the fuel system only return a very small amount of fuel to the tank. So in our cars, hot fuel in the tank is not an issue.

Replacing the fuel filter should always be done at the recommended intervals.
The filter element does not filter out water, the water is collected in the bottom of the filter housing, where it can be drained.


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## W12mike (Apr 13, 2005)

It just struck me, if ECM tuning or a tuning box is used, no wonder if the pump takes a beating.

The tuning boxes only rely on increasing the fuel pressure beyond the factory setting
to achieve the increase in torque.
Example going from 500Nm to 625Nnm would require almost a 50% pressure increase.
i.e. 2000 bar to 3000 bar. Even if this example is not 100% correct, the principle certainly apply!


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

W12mike said:


> In the Phaeton we have a return fuel-coolerQUOTE]
> 
> Hi,
> I am aware that the V10 had it under the floor pan. But, where is it on the 3.0TDI? I have never spotted it.
> ...


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## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

I think the early 3.0 tdi's had fuel coolers but by 2008 they no longer fitted them, my GP2 2009 certainly hasnt got one!

even if fitted can't imagine it would do much in heavy traffic unless it had a fan bolted to it.

does anyone know if our filters have a drain?


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

8secs,
What was the mileage and the model year of the Phaeton and BMW 7 series that failed?
How many miles have you and your colleagues driven using the 2 stroke oil plus fuel additive?
Cheers.

Gabriel


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## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

The phaeton was around the 80k mark and the 7 just over a 100k
There is another chauffeur on here with a pair of phaeton he has had a failure as well around the 120k mark I think

Between us the 2 stroke club has covered around 350000 mls in the last two yrs with 4 vehicles


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

8secs, 
Thanks a lot!
Just a couple of extra questions:
The Phaetons that failed, were the 165HP, 233HP or 240HP units?
Along your experience with the 2 stroke oil, have you had any issues whatsoever regarding the operation of either the EGR system, or the turbo, or the DPF, or the catalytic converter?
Cheers.

Gabriel

P.S. Sorry for bothering you so much, but frankly I find this discussion quite fascinating.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Whatever fuel you are using changing the fuel filter very regularly makes a great deal of sense as its also a water separator


The 5.0 TDI has a fuel composition sensor in the bottom of the filter housing that detects excessive water in the fuel. The water can then be pumped out using the proper VAG hand-pump during maintenance.

The 3.0 TDI doesn't have that facility. [Edit - re snapdragon's post, I should have said it doesn't have the sensor].

Chris


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## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> 8secs,
> Thanks a lot!
> Just a couple of extra questions:
> The Phaetons that failed, were the 165HP, 233HP or 240HP units?
> ...


Both phaeton that failed were 2008 233hp gp1 cars

The cars that have been running with 2 stroke have all been fine no problems at all, the 2 stroke is designed to burn clean, cleaner than the diesel !

We have also seen a slight but noticeable increase in MPG on the 2 stroke


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

Paximus said:


> The water can then be pumped out using the proper VAG hand-pump during maintenance.
> 
> The 3.0 TDI doesn't have that facility.


On the V6TDI, you should have a nipple with a hex screw in it on top of the filter.
The factory manual says the water drain action is to draw off 100ml of fuel, it is part of the maintenance schedule.
You can use a Pela if you have one with some flexible clear tubing as an adaptor.


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*High pressure diesel fuel pump*

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Crafte...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35be156f9d


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Fuel filter*



Paximus said:


> The 5.0 TDI has a fuel composition sensor in the bottom of the filter housing that detects excessive water in the fuel. The water can then be pumped out using the proper VAG hand-pump during maintenance.
> 
> The 3.0 TDI doesn't have that facility.
> 
> Chris


One up for sale on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-PHAETO...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item519d03fe14


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

*update & pics*

All
an update. When the fuel system was replaced, it was discovered that the damaged injectors had over fueled at least 2 of the cylinders and caused uncontrolled compression, leading to con rod damage. In summary it has now evolved into an engine-out job, and the procedure is looking increasingly like a replacement new engine from VW, the price of which is yet to be determined

So a sorry tale indeed, but the car will be better than ever in the end, with a 2 year engine & fuel system warranty. Financially it's a disaster, and may well end my involvement with the car, but as my work life is changing, the need for a this form of long distance transport is less and less.

For the benefit of one of the other forum members who requested this, here are pictures of the car, taken on one of the last days of what passes for summer here in Ireland, a few weeks ago.
Regards
Hugh




















































Model . . : 08 Phaeton GP V6 TDI 3.0 233PS 6spd
Colour . . : Reflex Silver Metallic Status : Sold
Upholstery : Navy Blue Sensitive Nappa Leather
Options . : customized installation
operating permit, alteration 13
Audio system 12/12 (270w, 6 x CD canger)
18 way seat options includes
3 x memory for driver & passengers, seat heat/ cool & massage, steering wheel position memory.
Automatic Dipping interior & dipping /folding exterior mirrors,
Bi-Xenon lights, cornering + LED DRL
Exterior badge deletion
Heated outer rear seats
Keyless entry and keyless start
Multi-function steering wheel, heated, leather
Myrtle wood trim
Power operated boot lid
Ski sack, with load through provision
Sunblind-rear windscrn(pwd) + side windows(manual)
Sunroof - electric, glass
Telephone prep, Bluetooth, voice activated
Digital TV reception with teletext
19" Helios alloy wheels with tyre fit repair kit
Multimedia package: rear screens + 6 DVD changer


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hello Hugh,
Sorry to hear about all those bad news.
With regards to the pictures you have just posted it looks fabulous with the helios wheels. I have always loved them! 
Now, a quick one: Is the interior blue or dark grey?

Gabriel


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> Hello Hugh,
> Sorry to hear about all those bad news.
> With regards to the pictures you have just posted it looks fabulous with the helios wheels. I have always loved them!
> Now, a quick one: Is the interior blue or dark grey?
> ...


Its Navy Blue. The image of the drivers seat is most accurate color representation. In reality it's a great color combination. I would pick it again.

Hugh


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## bilmac (Oct 10, 2012)

Irish Phaeton said:


> All
> an update. When the fuel system was replaced, it was discovered that the damaged injectors had over fueled at least 2 of the cylinders and caused uncontrolled compression, leading to con rod damage. In summary it has now evolved into an engine-out job, and the procedure is looking increasingly like a replacement new engine from VW, the price of which is yet to be determined
> 
> So a sorry tale indeed, but the car will be better than ever in the end, with a 2 year engine & fuel system warranty. Financially it's a disaster, and may well end my involvement with the car, but as my work life is changing, the need for a this form of long distance transport is less and less.
> ...


This car is a credit to the owner, *anyone* looking at the your photos would want one. bilmac


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

OK, an update
The car is getting a new engine, and VW & local garage have worked hard to reduce the pain, but final costs are as yet indeterminate. Anyhow, at least parts are now on order.

The question is, what should I have the garage do while the car is in pieces? I mentioned to the service manager the possibility of changing the gearbox (transmission) oil and he indicated he would investigate.

I suspect there are quite a few things that are easier to get at right now :laugh:

Car is November 2008 (MY2008) with 85K miles (130,000 KM)


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

All 
just in case anyone was interested, I got the car back a few days ago with a new engine and fuel system, and it drives like new. Frank Keane VW in Dublin did a great job, and were 100% professional. The amount of work to transfer components to the new engine, drop the entire front end, etc was significant. VW Ireland & VW AG made a significant contribution to the costs of the engine (but I still had a significant bill), but at least I now have a new engine, and a 2 year warranty. 

One interesting point is the OBC is showing better fuel consumption that the previous engine. It's too early to be certain, but it indicates a change from an average 30mpg to maybe 32mpg (imperial) on my routine commute. 

It will be interesting to monitor. 

Hugh 
Dubin


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Hugh, 

It's good news that all is now well, excepting for your big bill of course. This has been a disturbing story to follow and has raised some still-open questions about the benefits or risks of fuel additives. 

Good luck for a quieter life! 

Chris


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Irish Phaeton said:


> The amount of work to transfer components to the new engine, *drop the entire front end*, etc was significant.


 Hi Hugh, 

Glad to hear everything is OK now. It sure is interesting to hear the details about the work which has been done. You mentioned that components needed to be transferred to the new engine. Do you have specific details about those components, which didn't come with the new engine? 

Another question is about "dropping the entire front end". I'm wondering whether it is just a matter of removing the bumper and radiators? (for which the work may be already considered as significant) 

I've spotted a very nice 2006 3.0 V6 TDI, which I'm considering to buy as additional car and to see whether I could upgrade the control head. One issue is that the engine basically needs total replacement. Since I've sourced several replacement engines in Germany (refurbished or overhauled), I'm currently trying to estimate the workload for doing this. So any information about the workload and the used or transferred components is welcome. 

Willem


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Willem 

to answer the question on the work required: broadly speaking these were the steps 
# bumper was not removed: the front of the car remained intact 
# the front sub frame was removed: suspension, driveshafts, hubs, etc 
# all connections to the engine were removed, rear driveshaft disconnected, etc 
# engine supported and disconnected from car 
# car raised, leaving engine & transmission on the trolly 

The new engine arrived without (as far as I know) 
Alternator 
AC compressor 
Oil pump (I think) (sits in the V between the banks) 
Turbo 
Fuel pump or injectors 

So it arrived as new engine, but without any of the external systems which all had to be transferred from the old one. 

While there was some time wasted in the first few days, the hours worked were in the region of > 70 hours. 

Trust this helps 
Hugh


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks Hugh, 

This is exactly what I wanted to know. I discussed this with my indy garage, who looked up the price of a replacement engine - about 3750 Euro ex VAT. He would immediately do the job for 70 hours!  It sounds amazing, almost 2 weeks of work to replace the engine... But you're right, a new engine comes without anything, so they need to be taken off the old engine (hoping they are not defective, causing again problems to the new engine) and this may time consuming, but still...70 hours is a lot! 

Btw...can you confirm that the engine code is BMK? 

Willem


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Hugh, 
I am trully glad to hear that your Phaeton is up and running again! 



Irish Phaeton said:


> Middleton Old Rare, a little goes a long way...


 If you have been a little too much on it while waiting for your phaeton to be fixed, that might be the cause why your fuel consumption seems to be improved  (Don't take me wrong please, just a joke). 
All the best. 

Gabriel


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

WillemBal said:


> Thanks Hugh,
> 
> Btw...can you confirm that the engine code is BMK?
> 
> Willem


Willem
Does BMK just refer to the 3.0tdi, or something more specific?

my car is the ~230bhp (MY 2008) V6 tdi. The garage indicated that the replacement would be exactly the same as the one removed, but it does feel slightly "different", very smooth, but at the same time all tyres were replaced and expertly balanced, and everything in the front end tightened up, so it will feel better with thee changes.

Hugh


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Irish Phaeton said:


> Willem
> Does BMK just refer to the 3.0tdi, or something more specific?


Hi Hugh,

BMK refers to the engine code. But basically I already found the answer to my own question. It is described in SSP350.

Probably your engine is identical, but since you have a later model, the code of your engine may be different. It is probably indicated on the invoice.

Willem


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## F4TCT (Jul 7, 2014)

Hello everyone.

Im in the UK.

I have a 3.0 litre tdi V6 bought new in 2010.

Last week, i suffered exactly the same problem. I fill up at the same supermarket filling station every week. The car went into limp mode and then finally cut out and would not restart.

Audi claiming this issue can only be caused by the fuel, having pulled the thing to bits.

They have quoted around £10,000 for this work which is devastating.. The car has 55,000 statute miles on the clock and has never missed a beat... New injectors, entire fuel system is needed - and again, swarf and filings found as per the picture earlier in this thread... 

Sorry to bump this thread up again but this is the only other instance i have found for the issue.

Regards

Dan


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## daemont (Mar 24, 2015)

*Another P0087 issue but not so catastrophic..yet at least*

Hi guys,
Couple of months ago, while at a traffic light, I got the "Engine fault Workshop" warning and I noticed immediately the car was in limp mode.
After stopping and restarting minutes later, everything was just fine. I started investigating the problem myself and I soon realized what I might be heading into.. 
Couple of days later the problem repeated and after restarting everything was again fine.
This time, however, I made an appointment with a VW garage nearby... The car run fine and two days they looked for the problem and could not find anything.

According to them they checked
- fuel filter
- main pumps (in the tank)
- inspected visually the lines and rails
- connectors
- pipes
and everything was extremely clean.. no metal fillings in the filter.

They suggested replacing the pressure sensor and the pump's regulating pressure valve, although they could not guarantee that would solved it.
.. so, after this 800,- CHF speculation I found myself with a new sensor and regulating valve.

1000 km later the problem re-appeared, while 50km away from home. This time however, stopping and starting didn't solve the issue, so I ended up limping with 90km/h on a highway till I got home.
Having called the VW garage to inform them about the re-occurrence of the problem, they scared me with blind estimates over the value of the car... 

So, I decided to take it to a different garage, which was able to set an appointment for me, only couple of weeks later. I haven't moved or started the car meanwhile and I have even used a platform to transport it there..

At the second garage, the car run again perfectly and the problem could not be reproduced anymore.
Besides the P0087 registered error nothing shows the car would have a problem..  Again, the filter inspection revealed no metal fillings, everything looks clean and the mechanic has been trying since a week to find the issue.
He's currently preparing to open the engine, check the cams, test the injectors and the high pressure pump.

I am preparing for a 4000 km route across Europe, and I just can't leave with this issue hanging in there...

Any suggestion are highly appreciated?

Thanks a lot,
Mike


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Dear Mike,
I would have the pressure sensors wiring checked too.
Unfortunately if there are any metal fillings They do not necesarelly have to be located in the filter. I would have the high pressure injector pipes and pressure rails inspected as well as they are not difficult to disassemble.
I hope it helps and lets hope for the best.

Gabriel


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Mike,

One or more faulty fuel pumps are known to cause intermittent fuel starvation (low fuel pressure) in the petrol versions, gradually getting worse over a few hundred or a few thousand miles. The petrol cars reported in the forum do not go into limp-home mode when this happens, but perhaps the later diesel cars have more sophisticated software.

The failures reported did not always flag pump DTCs in a scan.

bad fuel pump??
fuelpump shortcircuit on a W12 SWB 2004 in Sweden
2004 Phaeton shutting off
Electric Fuel Pump Failure (W12) Diagnosis, Mitigation, Pump Replacement

BTW, I am working on re-hosting the photos in the threads which are actively in use. 

Chris










image (c) Volkswagen


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## kenne125 (10 mo ago)

daemont said:


> *Another P0087 issue but not so catastrophic..yet at least*
> 
> Hi guys,
> Couple of months ago, while at a traffic light, I got the "Engine fault Workshop" warning and I noticed immediately the car was in limp mode.
> ...


Same problem with my car, did you find out what was wrong?


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