# Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside!



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

Folks,
I just woke up and it hit me.... I think there is a very easy solution for us the MK4 guys that are wanting the BBM charger. If only we can get two companies to collaborate...
Here are the issues with MK4s and BBM charger:
1. The alternator sits higher and the BBM bracket for the MK3s will not work. There is not enough room for the pulley.
2. You can't place the BBM charger at the back of the engine due to lack of space and complications with the ducting as the MK4 airbox is on the driver side of the engine bay much closer to the windshield.
So I've been thinking: the biggest thing about the BBM charger and the MK4s is the fact that there isn't a good spot in the engine bay that will accomodate the charger, allow you to run proper ducting for air intake and intercooling for later stages. 
Now, consider this: You purchase a USRT manifold. You have options of placing the throttle body on the left or on the right. This will free up lots of space at the back of the engine. You install the BBM charger in the same spot as the Neuspeed charger. You only have to fabricate two new brackets for the back and find a longer belt. This will:
1) Provide enough space for the BBM charger at the back of the engine
2. Put the charger much closer to the MK4 airbox and thus simplify the ducting
3) You don't have to worry about the alternator location problem
4) You will have ample space for intercooling for later stages of the BBM.
Basically you take this:








Add the BBM charger starter kit:








So really, what it comes down to is finding someone to build an MK4 chip for the BBM charger, finding the right size accessory belt AND fabricating 2 brackets for the charger... 
Now, can [email protected] approach BBM and try to work with them on this... They get to sell a lot of manifolds, BBM gets to sell a lot of chargers, and us the MK4 fellas get a monster...
Discuss!
P.S.
The price so far is $1600 + $525 = $2125. But that's still $400 cheaper than the neuspeed and is enough (i hope) for both companies to make profit and develop a MK4 chip and ducting...


_Modified by vasillalov at 10:25 AM 4-30-2006_


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## innovativeedge (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

i'd buy one! 
bump


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (2.0tuner)*

brackets are not a problem at all, thats just simple engineering.
buying a SRI manifold and the charger seperalty works as well.
and if you can tune it! and as you ahve said the guys at BBM pretty much got the down and dirty of the OBD2 stuff, then i really dont see a problem

also if piping is a problem you can always relocate the windshield washer bottle...
however i do like the fact that you end up mounting the charger (a relativly heavy peice) behind the drive wheels as opposed to infront (like an MK3)
would make for better handling http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by 7thGear at 9:02 AM 4-30-2006_


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

Sounds good on paper. Now we need someone who is willing to experiment.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_Sounds good on paper. Now we need someone who is willing to experiment.

I am, its just that I am in the middle of nowhere in butt f\/ck West Virgnia! The main problem for me would be the downtime waiting for my ECU to travel back and forth to BBM in California. I think that with some donations from USRT (used mockups of their manifold) I can get something up and running...
Hmm...
Come to think of it, I have a spare ECU from 98 New Beetle laying around... I could reprogram it for my car as it was from AEG with manual tranny. Then I could use this spare ECU to send it back and forth to BBM for chip tuning... 


_Modified by vasillalov at 12:09 PM 4-30-2006_


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (McNeil)*

I'm looking into a supercharger in the late summer / fall, so someone please, experiment


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## NINj4 (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

I would buy one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

I believe that it could be done, but at about $3000 mininum IMHO. It cannot cost more than the NS SC.
About ecu tuning: reading the VW documentation it caught my eye that the obd2 mk3 use Motronic 5.9 and mk4 AEGs use Motronic 5.9.2. I do not think a version 0.0.2 would make a lot of difference.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (randallhb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *randallhb* »_I believe that it could be done, but at about $3000 mininum IMHO. It cannot cost more than the NS SC.
About ecu tuning: reading the VW documentation it caught my eye that the obd2 mk3 use Motronic 5.9 and mk4 AEGs use Motronic 5.9.2. I do not think a version 0.0.2 would make a lot of difference.









The difference is probably in the extra modules and systems that are present in the AEG. See the even at $3000 it is still a much better solution than the Neuspeed. You can upgrade and add intercooling MUCH MUCH easier than with Neuspeed.
Also, the prices I posted above are for single units. I am sure the price will drop signifficantly once there is an order for 50 chargers + manifolds...


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

Just to push the day dreaming even further:
Just imagine an AEB 20V head with the intake manifold + BBM charger...
Ooooohhh!


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

in a chassis that weights 2000 lb and has 50/50 weight distribution... ahh such dreams...


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_Just to push the day dreaming even further:
Just imagine an AEB 20V head with the intake manifold + BBM charger...
Ooooohhh!























Just port and polish the head and manifolds on the 2.0. Lets not transform this thread into dreams please http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (randallhb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *randallhb* »_Just port and polish the head and manifolds on the 2.0. Lets not transform this thread into dreams please http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Sorry. I got carried away....
I am seriously starting to think about this project. I might just whip one of the credit cards and dive into this...


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## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_I am seriously starting to think about this project. I might just whip one of the credit cards and dive into this...









That can be a very dangerous thing.


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

Vasil, you could have lots of space in the engine bay if you relocated the battery and removed the stock airbox.


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## Maverik869 (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (randallhb)*

ok... everything sounds good... BUT!!!
where is that picture of management systems in our cars!?!!?
they go back and forth in what type of management system they used in mk4's
some where drive by wire!
so even if you put out a kit thats custom to ur car, they cant make a kit to make all the mk4's happy. Companies like to make things for widest specturm possible, custom making something that will only fit 1-2yr car production is kinda hard due to possibility of low ROI(Return on Investment). thats something for you to think about!


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (Maverik869)*

Very good point there!
The AEG is the only engine that is still with throttle cable. The rest are Drive By Wire. However, from mechanical standpoint, the only difference is in the throttle bodies. It all boils down to proper software. The hardware part is the harderst one..
*randallhb*,
The problem is that the charger must line up with the accessory belt because it is belt driven. I am sure you are aware of that. It makes no sense to put the charger where the factory airbox is. This leaves basically two options:
1. Put it infront of the engine - not possible in the MK4 due to the higher standing alternator
2. Put it at the back of the engine - requires removal of the OEM intake manifold to free up space (ala Neuspeed style). With the USRT manifold, this is very feasible...
Again, it all boils down to chip tuning and fabricating some brackets and ducting...


_Modified by vasillalov at 5:34 PM 4-30-2006_


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## Blue.Slow (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

I already got a hkk manifold so if you guys can get a kit together with a burnt chip im in.


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## ll Black Blurr ll (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (Blue.Slow)*

bump for a great idea! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (v-tecs suck)*

Here is another shot:








Now, imagine the charger sitting at the back of the endine. In the MK4 you can actually hook it up with the existing airbox. You won't even have to relocate throttle body or MAF or any other...
On the other hand, you can have the USRT manifold with TB opening on the passenger side. Connect the two with some piping and your are done. All that's left is the chip tuning...
I am thinking of starting to take donations for this project.


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

Vasil, you could mount the SC in the back of the engine. I just went out to check it out and I think that after removing the intake manifold there is enough space between the head and the firewall.
1) then you could add piping to a 1.8T sidemount IC (cheaper to get used) and then use a USRT manifold with the entrance on the passanger side. OR
2) you could add longer piping to a frontmount IC and use a USRT manifoled with the entrance on the drivers side
I think it is very possible and just a matter a test fitting. Write to both companies to get the units for test fitting







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You deserve a










_Modified by randallhb at 6:38 PM 4-30-2006_


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_Here is another shot:
On the other hand, you can have the USRT manifold with TB opening on the passenger side. Connect the two with some piping and your are done. All that's left is the chip tuning...


i dont think this would work, notice in your own pic, the TB is BEFORE the charger
whatever manifold USRT will make (if we dont use existing ones) wont need a TB plate, because after the charger there should be as small and bentless pipe as possible before the intake runners.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_i dont think this would work, notice in your own pic, the TB is BEFORE the charger
whatever manifold USRT will make (if we dont use existing ones) wont need a TB plate, because after the charger there should be as small and bentless pipe as possible before the intake runners.

No no,
What I meant was that the USRT manifold would have to have the air opening on the passenger side. The throttle body will have to be before the charger anyway...


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## Maverik869 (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_The hardware part is the harderst one..

i think software is the hardpart.... having to tune 2 different ecu systems vs just dealing w. hardware that will be the same all mk4s. look at it this way! if it was soo simple to tune, we would have multiple revisions that are still not complete w. the mk3 kit!

_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_It all boils down to proper software. 

BINGO!


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## hkk735 (Jul 14, 2001)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (Maverik869)*

i like where this is heading...we can deff make this work, just need someone to send me a mk4 and the charger, we can make all the brackets and such, and then we take it to 3 hours south to our secret software guru who can tune it no problem


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## Maverik869 (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (hkk735)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hkk735* »_i like where this is heading...we can deff make this work, just need someone to send me a mk4 and the charger, we can make all the brackets and such, and then we take it to 3 hours south to our secret software guru who can tune it no problem









JEFNES!!!!!!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif its 3hrs from you?


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (hkk735)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hkk735* »_i like where this is heading...we can deff make this work, just need someone to send me a mk4 and the charger, we can make all the brackets and such, and then we take it to 3 hours south to our secret software guru who can tune it no problem










I can travel! I gotta figure this out logistically first!


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

Not that this is a huge concern, but if you wanted to include the business of 2.0 new beetle owners, the charger would have to mount slightly farther forward due to the rain tray in the New Beetle.
I will look for a better pic, but here is the old New Dimensions charger on their NB.










_Modified by bugasm99 at 10:37 AM 5-1-2006_


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (bugasm99)*

I'm looking into a FI option on my NB, as well as a lot of other folks. The business from New Beetle owners would be pretty significant I'd say.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (SomeMacGuy)*

so we got USRT/HKK in on this
tuning we got as well, i think
fabrication is simply a logistics concern
what about belts, and the charger itself, any word from BBM on their cooperation?


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

I would gladly donate my car to the project. Does anyone want to donate a charger? I don't mind driving down, either. As long as I get to keep it all I'll be a happy camper








Here's an idea:
USRT is developing an alternator reloaction kit. It moves the alt to the back of the vehicle. The only problem is clearing the airpump.


_Modified by pwnt by pat at 4:45 PM 5-1-2006_


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

wasn't there an early 98 aeg motor in the beetle that came without an airpump? is this a possible code for deleting the airpump through vag-com?
p.s. I would definitely travel for this and if it can fit in a beetle, it will fit in a golf/ jetta.


_Modified by bugasm99 at 4:55 PM 5-1-2006_


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

There is a way to delete the secondary air-pump using the vag-come. Tdogg posted this up a few days ago http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2491737
So what charger is going to be used? The screw that comes on the MKIII aba's or another one of bbm's units? 
What about fueling?


_Modified by McNeil at 5:27 PM 5-1-2006_


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

It seems to be miss and hit with the mk4 ecu and deleting the airpump. 
If you notice, the bently manual page only shows codes for ABA engines where mk4 are aeg, avh, etc. 
In the same thread, I believe, it's stated that the air pump can not be deleted. Relocation should be possible, however. I mean, it's just another bracket.


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (McNeil)*

[off topic] I thought that only worked for the OBD2 ABA, not for the AEG [/off topic]


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

I am going to check my Bentley right now.
Edit: I did not find anything on eliminating the pump.


_Modified by McNeil at 5:41 PM 5-1-2006_


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (bugasm99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bugasm99* »_wasn't there an early 98 aeg motor in the beetle that came without an airpump? is this a possible code for deleting the airpump through vag-com?
p.s. I would definitely travel for this and if it can fit in a beetle, it will fit in a golf/ jetta.

_Modified by bugasm99 at 4:55 PM 5-1-2006_

I have a 2000 AEG, no airpump.


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## ll Black Blurr ll (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*

Can someone with a mk4 bentley please check this air pump issue out??


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: (v-tecs suck)*

3 posts up. I looked and found nothing.


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## zilla (Jun 17, 2000)

*Re: (McNeil)*

This is amazing.
I feel like BBM has alienated all mk4 2.0 owners by not giving an AEG option but giving a mk2 1.8L digi 2 option








I suppose you can get around the software "problem" entirely by running SDS or some other standalone system.
I'll be watching this thread closely. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
aside: I have a 2000 AEG and it doesn't have an airpump, either.


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## ll Black Blurr ll (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: (zilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zilla* »_aside: I have a 2000 AEG and it doesn't have an airpump, either.

Lucky Bastid!







Let me get a copy of your ecu








I guess it's a Canadian thing....


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (v-tecs suck)*

Folks,
Why oh why is the Secondary Air Pump such a big issue? Just mount the charger at the back a la Neuspeed Style...


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

Vasil,
Do you plan on contacting bbm with this revalation of yours?


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_Vasil,
Do you plan on contacting bbm with this revalation of yours? 

Yes..
I attempted to contact John (JBETZ) but he has not responded so far. I will try to call BBM tomorrow to find out what my options are and if there is even a hint of interest on their behalf... The thing is I have suspension coming in on Wednesday and it will probably consume most of my attention during this week. 
Trust me, I've been thinking about this so hard that I am getting headaches....


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

What supercharger are you theorizing will work?


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_What supercharger are you theorizing will work?

Their lysholm unit looks very promising. The same thing they ship out for the MK3s...


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_What supercharger are you theorizing will work?

did you even read the title for this thread?


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: (7thGear)*

No shiza its a BBM, I thought there were different units that BBM offers.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (McNeil)*

hmmmm,
Some other stuff that I was missing in this pretty picture:
1. Fuel Pressure Regulator
2. Injectors
3. Boost by-pass valve
4. Oil supply and return lines
5. Spark plugs
I gotta call BBM...










_Modified by vasillalov at 9:33 PM 5-1-2006_


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## ll Black Blurr ll (Sep 24, 2004)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

looks confusing....


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

It's a good idea to keep the airpump because:
not having it will throw a cel
this kit is indended to be a streetable kit (correct?) carb certified
it's a federal offense to remove any emissions equipment on a street vehicle
The airpump doesn't even have to be removed. It can be relocated. If you take out the stock airbox, there is plent of room to relocate the airpump, as well as add in a catchcan for the crankcase/oil breather. The pump could even be relocated behind the engine on the firewall.
I see this as having two options:
1) Mount the SC to the top of the engine, feeding in to the SRI. Keep the stock alt location
2) relocate the alt to the back of the engine, via the USRT relocation kit (not available yet). mount the SC to the front of the vehicle (alt's location) where air passing through the radiator can blow on it.
Either way should work the same. If you do top-of the engine, you should be able to use a cold air intake with a close to stock TB location and still have room for the airpump and oil catchcan.
OT: lets make this a dual induction kit. I'd bite










_Modified by pwnt by pat at 10:00 PM 5-1-2006_


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2491737

BUMP b/c I posted on travis' thread


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## gargameliob (Jul 16, 2001)

*Re: (McNeil)*

bump
Let's make this happen guys


_Modified by gargameliob at 12:21 PM 5-3-2006_


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## HtotheZ (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (gargameliob)*

i like this idea, but i doubt BBM will want to dive into this seeing if anything goes wrong, all fingers start pointing in their direction. liability is a factor here


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (HtotheZ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HtotheZ* »_i like this idea, but i doubt BBM will want to dive into this seeing if anything goes wrong, all fingers start pointing in their direction. liability is a factor here

Care to elaborate on what could go wrong? Like you said anything can go wrong when you modify your engine.


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (randallhb)*

Where is this forum's sponsor


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (randallhb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *randallhb* »_
Care to elaborate on what could go wrong? Like you said anything can go wrong when you modify your engine.

a joint venture means joint liability, and i have seen first hand when **** like that gets ugly


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## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_a joint venture means joint liability, and i have seen first hand when **** like that gets ugly

I do not think this would be a joint venture, BBM just needs to fab this or buy it from USRT/HKK or whomever. Anyway it would be BBM's warranty (quality control from their fab process or provider of the part).


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (randallhb)*

or USRT could just buy the core chargers as it seems as if most of the fabrication will be coming out of USRT.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

Fabrication is the easiest part! BBM needs to develop the chip tuning. They know the lysholm charger in and out and have long term experience with it. BBM can also do fabrication I am sure. Its a matter of them sitting on their a$$ and getting to work.
This is how money is made!


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## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

Are there other options for chip tuning if BBM wants nothing to do with this? C2?


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## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

C2 would be good, but Im sure that they wouldnt even bother with the Lysholm since they've not used it as often. BBM is the best thing to go with since they already have the knowledge and experience with the 8v 2.0 ABA, etc block and head. They're the best bet.
EDIT: Here I am, nto even owning a 2.0 (2.Slow) and Im giving you all advice and watching this thread like Ive owned a 2.0 for YEARS.


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_Fabrication is the easiest part! BBM needs to develop the chip tuning. They know the lysholm charger in and out and have long term experience with it. BBM can also do fabrication I am sure. Its a matter of them sitting on their a$$ and getting to work.
This is how money is made!

Yep, I agree. I'd buy a MK4 kit in a second.


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## Dubboi (Sep 18, 2004)

*Re: (v-tecs suck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *v-tecs suck* »_
Lucky Bastid!







Let me get a copy of your ecu








I guess it's a Canadian thing....

Yeah i guess it is anyway i have no airpump on my Mk4 AEG and that sounds very good so if that comes out i will deff. get a kit, and ditch the N/S charger








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_Fabrication is the easiest part! BBM needs to develop the chip tuning. 

I agree and disagree. I worked as a fabricator for 3 years at a major vw/ audi/ porsche tuner and it is all about the package. Each piece needs to work together for the total system to work. I was just saying that since we are starting with a USRT manifold, it may be smart to make the brackets, piping, manifold, etc. all at once to create the best design possible. Chip tuning takes time and patience but you have to have a good mechanical base or all the chip tuning is a waste.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

Very true!
I will try to find some time tomorrow to call BBM and talk to them. I'll try to squeeze this inbetween doing a complete suspension install, sending flowers to a hot chick I met the other day and celebrating one of my buddies birthday!


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

i say send the flowers, then do the suspension install... your buddy will understand. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

Make it happen... No choice. What kind of internals would/should be updated/replaced b4 install (if kit came together..)? I have 113,000 miles...


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (GaTeIg)*

i think with mild boost and no crazy revability stock compression will be just fine.
we have flattop pistons in our cars stock right? thats already a plus.
if neuspeed can push what is it? 7 psi and claim factory reliability, with an intercooler and a bit more guts i think 10-12 psi could probably be achieved without having to change anything
and if anything... just slap on a thicker gasket...


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## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

any guess for hp/tq numbers? curves?


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (7thGear)*

with all the talk about supercharging an mk4. I just came across this on ebay... interesting theory, not sure if it would really work but i won't knock it.








http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...W0_IT


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Thats crazy!
Remove AC
Drop alternator
reposition charger on top of alt
plumb with intercooler


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

exactly. my first thoughts are...
1) will the alternator spin fast enough to spool up a compressor wheel in a turbo to create boost in a housing that size?
2) I don't see any form of oil supply so I am assuming it is a bearing assembly, and that could cause an awful racket down the line.


----------



## vwboomer2 (Jan 26, 2003)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

Yeah so um, isn't a turbo charger that is driven by a belt and not exhaust a supercharger?


_Modified by vwboomer2 at 12:43 AM 5-6-2006_


----------



## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (vwboomer2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwboomer2* »_Yeah so um, isn't a turbo charger that isn't driven by a belt and not exhaust a supercharger?

Exactly my thoughts. They're using the same concept as C2 and VF Engineering uses?


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (Scuba2001)*

yes, the only difference I can see here is that the housing itself seems like a turbo housing, where as a supercharger has a slightly different wheel characteristics. Plus C2/ VF/ Vortech units have built in oil feeds or are self contained. I don't see any of that here.


----------



## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

Does a belt driven unit like the VF even get hot? I mean, yeah, the bearings would but enough to oil/water cool?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

How about this....a supercharger that changes gears!!!
http://www.fastcar.co.uk/New_s....html


----------



## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re:*

How about getting this thread back to the topic Vasil started


----------



## gargameliob (Jul 16, 2001)

*Re: Re: (randallhb)*

I guess the question may be
1. Who are the parties we need to speak to, to make this happen and do they think this will be fesible/possible for a price point of ~$2500?
2. What support do they need from us (volunteer/test cars)
3. Who is wants to volunteer there cars to the cause and are they in the locations where testing can be performed?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: (gargameliob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gargameliob* »_I guess the question may be
1. Who are the parties we need to speak to, to make this happen and do they think this will be fesible/possible for a price point of ~$2500?
2. What support do they need from us (volunteer/test cars)
3. Who is wants to volunteer there cars to the cause and are they in the locations where testing can be performed?

What's gotta happen is this......Greg needs a MKIV and a BBM charger to do this. So, if anyone has a MKIV local to Newport, NH and wants to buy a BBM kit, then he is 100% willing to take this on and make it work. 
Just keep in mind folks, this isnt gonna be cheap IMHO. Even if/when this thing is installed and works, THEN you have to have a custom chip for it. THis will take time and be costly up front for the brave soul willing to take this on.
Bottom line....R&D takes a lot of time and a lot of money.


----------



## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

I am willing to take the drive up from Pittsburgh, I just can't afford the charger, or many of the parts right now


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: Re: (randallhb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *randallhb* »_How about getting this thread back to the topic Vasil started









sorry, just throwing out other options since BBM seems to be somewhat non-repsonsive to all of this. I guess its because its for an mk4.

If I had the money I would be all over this. I am, however, local to and an old employee of AWE tuning and could possibly talk to them about GIAC involvement and dyno tuning if this kit gets down to the philadelphia area.


----------



## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: Re: (bugasm99)*

Thats sounds good!


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: (McNeil)*

Alright, 
That's it! I am done with all the suspension work and other little things on the car. I am calling BBM on Monday and will find out what is their position on this. I will post and update after that...


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: Re: (vasillalov)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif two thumbs up to that


----------



## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

In the BBM thread, the stage III just came out and John Betz said that they paired up with one of the best chip tuners out there. C2? That would be nice.


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

UPDATE:
I just talked to BBM. Here is what I am told:
1. They have been researching about mounting the charger on the back of the engine (a la Neuspeed style). However, this is not feasible because of the heat from the exhaust. (whatever the hell that means)...
2. They said that mounting the charger on the front is only possible if a custom cast intake manifold is made and the charger is bolted on top of it.


----------



## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

They don't like us MKIV guys huh.


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

so basically a custom manifold has to be made that the charger can bolt right too. Its not like that is outrageously difficult to design and form..


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

heat from the exhaust my ass...
stick a 1X2 foot phonelic sheet between the charger and the exhaust manifold cover and your good to go...


----------



## hkk735 (Jul 14, 2001)

*Re: (7thGear)*

heat shield indeed, but not phenolic, it wont withstand the heat....inconel or ss sheet would be best http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## zilla (Jun 17, 2000)

*Re: (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_UPDATE:
I just talked to BBM. Here is what I am told:
1. They have been researching about mounting the charger on the back of the engine (a la Neuspeed style). However, this is not feasible because of the heat from the exhaust. (whatever the hell that means)...
2. They said that mounting the charger on the front is only possible if a custom cast intake manifold is made and the charger is bolted on top of it. 


so like... am I missing the obvious here? Why not just use an ABA intake manifold instead of the AEG one?


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (hkk735)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hkk735* »_heat shield indeed, but not phenolic, it wont withstand the heat....inconel or ss sheet would be best http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

you guys know best
in fact, why not take the factory exhaust manifold heat shield and cover it with something, special coating. I remember reading up on crazy turbo M3 buildup, they were using this fabric like carbon-god-knows-what
they said that you can place your hand on one side and torch it from the other and you'll hardly feel the heat..!!
gotta dig up that issue... wouldnt mind getting my hands on this stuff.


_Quote, originally posted by *zilla* »_

so like... am I missing the obvious here? Why not just use an ABA intake manifold instead of the AEG one?

its all because of the alternator and where its mounted.


----------



## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_UPDATE:
I just talked to BBM. Here is what I am told:
1. They have been researching about mounting the charger on the back of the engine (a la Neuspeed style). However, this is not feasible because of the heat from the exhaust. (whatever the hell that means)...
2. They said that mounting the charger on the front is only possible if a custom cast intake manifold is made and the charger is bolted on top of it. 

All I see here is lack of interest from BBM http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## zilla (Jun 17, 2000)

*Re: (randallhb)*

agreed. their position hasn't changed since they first came out with the kit.
What i don't understand is that they think that the mk2 1.8 L digifart market is bigger than the mk4 aeg 2.0 market


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (zilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zilla* »_agreed. their position hasn't changed since they first came out with the kit.
What i don't understand is that they think that the mk2 1.8 L digifart market is bigger than the mk4 aeg 2.0 market









the AEG market spans the production run of 2 years.... not exactly that big
the rest of 3-4 year production runs is drive by wire and would require a different approach yet again.


_Modified by 7thGear at 12:30 PM 5-9-2006_


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_
the AEG market spans the production run of 2 years.... not exactly that big
the rest of 3-4 year production runs is drive by wire and would require a different approach yet again.

_Modified by 7thGear at 12:30 PM 5-9-2006_

Yea... but there are alot of em around... before onepointate was all the rage, aeg was there was besides vrs


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (GaTeIg)*

not to mention with the numbers of turbo mk4 vr6's with DBW around, someone has to know how to tune around that. I personally built up an 01 vr6 turbo and managed to get the throttle body to cooperate, and i'm no tuner.


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

I think you if plp are really serious about FI, they'd all get cable TBs. Response is so much better...(obviously)


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (GaTeIg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GaTeIg* »_I think you if plp are really serious about FI, they'd all get cable TBs. Response is so much better...(obviously)

are you saying your foot is faster than electricity?








seriously tho ive driven in a drive by wire car and for one thing there alot more comfortable, and anything electrical could be repogramed, so i'm sure if one wanted a 'responsive' wire driven TB they could do it... hehe... question is who will......


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_are you saying your foot is faster than electricity?










Its not just the speed of electricity... but the switching/latching speed of the digital logic gates that make it work, and the frequency that the microcontroller is running at... digital circuits do have a delay, period.


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitalhippie* »_Its not just the speed of electricity... but the switching/latching speed of the digital logic gates that make it work, and the frequency that the microcontroller is running at... digital circuits do have a delay, period.

He is right! There is a delay (lag) in all DBW vehicles. Also, with DBW the ECU controls how much to open the butterfly of the throttle body. If the ECU thinks that you are requesting more power than it is programmed for, it will only open the butterfly as much as it wants. That way you can end up having your pedal to the metal, and yet, your TB butterfly is only open 15 degrees....
Anyway...
About my conversation with BBM. 
1. They know about this thread and they know about the USRT manifold
2. They know about the interest in making a BBM kit for the MK4s.
3. I spoke with two different people, John and someone from R&D. John seemed pretty cool and very welcoming while the other guy sounded like I should piss off and not bother them at all.... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

About this heat from the exhaust... I thought: well how on earth does Neuspeed make it happen with the charger put at the back of the engine... Also, the BBM charger has oil lines which lubricate and cool it down... I can only guess that the intake charge gets too heated to run anything reliable.....
Nevertheless, collaborating with BBM will be a hard nut to crack...


----------



## Dubboi (Sep 18, 2004)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

in my opinion BBM are too lazy to make their charger work on the MK4's














http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

When I first read about relocating the charger to the back, I was surprised no one else mentioned the heat issue. Doesn't the BBM kit have a sort of cooling core built into the charger (thought I saw what looks like a small intercooler at the "front" of the charger)? If thats the case, its put up front for a reason, so putting the charger in the back would just heat up the charge WAY too much (don't think there is much airflow at the back by the firewall). Alt. relocation kit would be a must, possibly a different SRI manifold from USRT so that it sits above or below the charger (depending on charger location) would be optimal.
What about putting the charger as low as possible? So long as the charge pipe doesn't make any sharp bends, it can route directly to a 1.8t style IC on the passenger side, and have a passenger side mounted TB a la 1.8t manifold. Would need to relocate some accessories I bet, but I don't see why this option wouldn't work.


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (abawp)*

Time for a hood scoop i guess


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (GaTeIg)*

what about mounting the charger up on top of the engine similar to the location of the neuspeed but slightly rather forward (not on the back) and then run a split manifold. This would be similar to what the guys were doing to intercool their neuspeed chargers.


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

idealy, since were on the topic, mounting the charger as low and as closer to the center of the car will be most beneficial.


----------



## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

I don't know the configuration/layout of mkIV accesories, but what all is at the front lower portion of the motor? P/S, A/C, and the water pump? How hard would it be to relocate all (including the alternator) but the water pump? I would imagine that would free up quite a bit of room if it were possible.


----------



## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

AC, alternator, and airpump


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (abawp)*

OK,
On the MK4s, the water pump is internal. There is only one accessory belt which drives the PS/AC/ALT.
The real issue is the fact that the alternator is much higher than compared to the MK3s due to the different design of the accessory belt tensioner. Now don't forget that most MK4 engines have the secondary air pump which simply eats up all the space at the front.
So basically this leaves two options:
1. Alternator relocation kit and hope that the harger will fit around the SAI pump
2. Custom cast intake manifold which will have the charger bolted ON TOP of it...


----------



## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

Ok, question, if you can relocate the alternator, and maybe relocate the airpump, what is stopping you from doing something like this:








basically, have a USRT SRI manifold thats all closed up except for where the discharge is located on the charger, which is essentially welded or bolted to it via a flanged connection.


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (abawp)*

^^ Nothing!
I am yet to see an Alternator and Air Pump relocation kit for the MK4..


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

Hasn't someone found a way to code out the airpump yet?
I thought we were past that.


----------



## Pry (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*

on the mk3 cars with air pump bbm has you remove it. you could keep the pump and relocate it, but it seems pointless since you wont be carb legal with the blower anyway.


----------



## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

http://www.usrallyteam.com/altreloc.html
I'm not sure if it's mk3 or 4 though.


----------



## BMGFifty (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

^^^ looks just like the one that BBM has been making for some time....and that VW made first


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pwnt by pat* »_http://www.usrallyteam.com/altreloc.html
I'm not sure if it's mk3 or 4 though.

That's for the MK3s.
Like I said, I am yet to see an altertnator relocation kit for the AEG and later engines...


----------



## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_Hasn't someone found a way to code out the airpump yet?
I thought we were past that.

No, the MKIV ecus do not support coding for removing the airpump, i posted that you would need to change to a different ecu part number.


----------



## zilla (Jun 17, 2000)

So what's the big deal about dropping the alternator a few inches?


----------



## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (zilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zilla* »_So what's the big deal about dropping the alternator a few inches?

The AC compressor is just below the alternator.


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (randallhb)*

so what if you dump the ac compressor
or move the compressor...


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Alright,
Here is the deal... The MK3s have two accessory belts. The MK4s have only one. Now, granted the coolant pump on the MK4s is internal (timing belt driven), you still have very little space to play with. Also, another major problem is the different accessory belt tentioner and the alternator brackets. See, in the MK4s the belt tensioner uses he bracket for the alternator. As such, you can't just drop the damn alternator. You need to find a way to bolt the tentioner, the alternator and make sure that all the pulleys line up. 
Also, the alternator bracket provides support for the engine bay cover bracket. Its basically a buch of brackets all relying on each other for support....
As you can see, any MK3 alternator relocation kits will simply not work...


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

i took off all the engine cover brackets.. extra weight...


----------



## zilla (Jun 17, 2000)

why does it feel like VW intentionally designed the AEG to thwart tuners?


----------



## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

you need to start a poll on this to gauge interest....


----------



## Pry (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (the_q_jet)*

as you know, BBM tried to make this work on the mk4 AEG. they had a test car and tried to fit the blower but determined that there wasnt enough space under the hood to mount the charger. the money/time it would cost to fabricate new brackets or make new manifolds would push the cost up too high to make it worth while. im sure BBM could make it work but do they want to invest the time/money in R&D to develop a kit that only works on motors that were in production for 2-3 years? plus the fact that they would have to charge a lot more than the mk3 kit for the same outcome. im sure theyd sell a few but not as many as the mk3/mk2 kits which are more affordable. BBM knows what theyre doing, they tried but it wasnt economical for them to do this.. if you want to fab something custom up to make this work im sure it would be possible but it would cost a lot of money. you still could go turbo or Nuespeed so you have some options. you cant blame BBM tho, because if they could make it work and keep it on the cheap they would have.


----------



## gargameliob (Jul 16, 2001)

Keeping the dream alive, bump


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (Pry)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pry* »_as you know, BBM tried to make this work on the mk4 AEG. they had a test car and tried to fit the blower but determined that there wasnt enough space under the hood to mount the charger. the money/time it would cost to fabricate new brackets or make new manifolds would push the cost up too high to make it worth while. im sure BBM could make it work but do they want to invest the time/money in R&D to develop a kit that only works on motors that were in production for 2-3 years? plus the fact that they would have to charge a lot more than the mk3 kit for the same outcome. im sure theyd sell a few but not as many as the mk3/mk2 kits which are more affordable. BBM knows what theyre doing, they tried but it wasnt economical for them to do this.. if you want to fab something custom up to make this work im sure it would be possible but it would cost a lot of money. you still could go turbo or Nuespeed so you have some options. you cant blame BBM tho, because if they could make it work and keep it on the cheap they would have.









it will only cost us (the consumer) alot of money if the supplies wants to *make money*
BBM can make this, but they wont because they cant MAKE money on it. and unfortunetly thats the name of the game


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*

I’m no stranger to this place,
Where real life and dreams collide.
And even though I fall from grace,
I will keep the dream alive
I will keep the dream alive...


----------



## hkk735 (Jul 14, 2001)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_
it will only cost us (the consumer) alot of money if the supplies wants to *make money*
BBM can make this, but they wont because they cant MAKE money on it. and unfortunetly thats the name of the game










well, we are up to the challenge over here. hell, we intercooled the NS charger even though there isnt a huge market for it, and profit on that piece is a whopping $50, in *MY* eyes its not about the profit, yes i do have a bottom line as this is what i do for a living, but im not looking to get rich doing this. if i wanted to get rich i would still be a power plant welder, now i make a living doing what i love http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
so as a stated before, anyone w/ a MK4 who wants to be the guinea pig for this setup, get in touch w/ either myself or scott and we will take care of it


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (hkk735)*

Has anyone gotten in touch with you guys?
If you were within 4 or 5 hours of me I'd be all over it!








SMG


_Modified by SomeMacGuy at 1:00 AM 5-19-2006_


----------



## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

2 hours 47 minutes away...


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (McNeil)*

Be the guinea pig then man!








The is a lot of people wanting this to happen.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
SMG


----------



## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

I would love too but I am not sure I am the most qualified candidate.
1. mileage: 103k
2. What are we looking at for costs?
3. Daily driver.


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_I would love too but I am not sure I am the most qualified candidate.
1. mileage: 103k
2. What are we looking at for costs?
3. Daily driver.

good questions..


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *McNeil* »_I would love too but I am not sure I am the most qualified candidate.
1. mileage: 103k
2. *What are we looking at for costs?*
3. Daily driver.

Like the old saying goes...if you gotta ask, you probably cannot afford it. R&D costs time and money.


----------



## McNeil (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Exactly. If we are looking at roughly the price of a Neuspeed unit then I might have the money capabilities, but seeing that I live in CT and have to drive 2.5 hours to get it installed and if it were ever to give me problems and needed HKK to have a look at it...woah.


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
Like the old saying goes...if you gotta ask, you probably cannot afford it. R&D costs time and money. 

I thought the company producing the kit would be the one to spend R&D money rather than the owner of the test car. I mean.. if he pays for all the parts, the R&D, etc, what's in it for him when you go to sell the product he bankrolled?
SMG


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*

So nobody has an answer for my question?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_
I thought the company producing the kit would be the one to spend R&D money rather than the owner of the test car. I mean.. if he pays for all the parts, the R&D, etc, what's in it for him when you go to sell the product he bankrolled?
SMG

So lemme get this straight....one of you're going to just drive on up to Greg's, have him measure/fabricate/test-fit all in, and THEN expect to not pay for anything?







All in ONE AFTERNOON!!!








H&H Tuning (HKK Motorsports) is just starting out....nowhere NEAR the size of, say, BBM or Neuspeed. 
FWIW....it took 2 FULL days to just fabricate/install my USRT manifold, catchcan, coolant resevoir, and power steering reseviour. (Actually, I believe a couple of the pieces were already done prior to the install.) I paid for it ALL...time/labor/stock. Granted, I'm friends with Greg so _my_ cost was less than anyone else, but I still had to _pay for it_. Same goes with that Intake dyno comparison I did last November that you've all seen. $100 for the dyno time out of MY pocket. 
For the one who wants to do this and be the "first", more power to you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif But be prepared to spend some time up there WITH your car because this sh*t just doesnt "magically" happen. It takes time and _your_ money. 
*EDIT*
I just want to go on record here stating the above statements weren't a complaint about money I've spent....I support HKK Motorsports and USRT 100%. The time and money I spend in R&D and product from their buisness' comes from my personal desire for Greg & Scott to be #1 in the VW market. 



_Modified by tdogg74 at 11:25 AM 5-22-2006_


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Well if say I was the first car to have it done, I'd expect to pay the same amount as someone who would later buy the kit. So if the kit was going to retail for $3499, I'd expect to pay $3499. The first person to do this will pay extra in the long run with their time and support of the project.
I don't think it's fair to make someone bankroll a product, only to have USRT turn around and sell it, making money off of a design someone else paid for. If I was the one who had to pay the R&D on the kit, I'd want royalties on every kit sold since I was the one who paid the cash to bring it to market.
If we have a misunderstanding (which I hope we do), that's great. If not, that is seriously messed up.
SMG


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_
I don't think it's fair to make someone bankroll a product, only to have USRT turn around and sell it, making money off of a design someone else paid for. If I was the one who had to pay the R&D on the kit, I'd want royalties on every kit sold since I was the one who paid the cash to bring it to market.


Well seeing how you would be supplying the *car and BBM supercharger*, my guess is you would pay for all the labor to make it work and metal stock. I personally don't know how much that would be. That would be between you and Greg. Also, I don't see how you would own any "rights" to any design, nor would you have "rights" to any royalties. You would be bringing it to him to figure out and make work. 
Again, I'm NOT trying to speak for Greg here, but I know there are a bunch of you MKIV guys wanting this. In order for this to happen, someone needs to donate their MKIV (physically) WITH a BBM charger. I know for a fact he doesnt have either just laying around his shop. 
Oh, there is also the chip tuning that will need to be done to make this work. (Dont MKIV's have soldered chips as opposed to plug-ins MKIIIs have?) There currently is no chip tuning in existance for MKIVs and a BBM charger, right? Does that mean if a chip is tuned by someone, you will own the "rights" to that chip? I think not. 
This is a lot more involved than most of you think.


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (hkk735)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hkk735* »_i like where this is heading...we can deff make this work, *just need someone to send me a mk4 and the charger*, we can make all the brackets and such, and then we take it to 3 hours south to our secret software guru who can tune it no problem









Just bumping this from the first page.....


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Whoever pays to make this work owns the design. USRT would have no rights to reproduce it.
SMG


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*

You have to spend money to make money.
Apple didn't make the first iPod customer spend millions in R&D.
I can't even get over this.. lol.
SMG


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_Whoever pays to make this work owns the design. USRT would have no rights to reproduce it.
SMG









Ok, pal, you're right. I'm done arguing about this.
*edit*
I take that back, Im not done with this....
You take your MKIV and a BBM charger to Greg.
You say "Greg, please make this work"
He says "Sure"
.......
He says, here's your car and here's your bill...
Time/Labor = $
Materials cost = $
Custom chip tuning = $
What *do* you own? A working MKIV 2.0 with a BBM supercharger. 
What you *don't* own...the way Greg figured out how to make it work, and the chip programing it took Jeff to tune it.
Unless *you* go in there with the plans from start-to-finish to make the necessary parts to make it work and the correct chip programming to make it run right, I honestly don't see what you own other than a car that runs. 



_Modified by tdogg74 at 5:29 PM 5-22-2006_


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2006)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_desire for Greg & Scott to be #1 in the VW market. 


...steve has no feelings...


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I usually try and stay out of this stuff, but after working as a fabricator off and on for 3 years at reputable VW/Audi/Porsche tuner, I do have my own feelings on this matter.
Travis, I understand your feelings on this subject. But I think this only holds true if you are producing a one off product that will never be reproduced for any sort of profit on the fabricators end. If the fabricator plans on taking the final product and then mass producing this for their own profit, then all bets are off.
There is no formal law that says the fabricator has to give the car owner a break, but it is an understanding. The frabricator is giving up time, and money while the car owner is giving up his car. The car owner will pay a reasonable fee which will be aproximately the cost of the final product.
I am not trying to take sides in this as I would like to see this finally come to fruition, but SMG has a point in that you cannot expect someone to fund an entire fabrication, testing, tuning session out of their own product, to have the fabricator turn around a reproduce the product for his own profit.
as an example, I am personally a Graphic Designer. I would not expect someone to pay me to develop a logo for them, and then turn around and resell that logo to someone else. 
Either you the owner pays and retains all rights, or the fabricator helps to fund the project.


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_You have to spend money to make money.
Apple didn't make the first iPod customer spend millions in R&D.
I can't even get over this.. lol.
SMG
 so i should take a hammer, and toothbrush and rocketfuel and tell nasa to make me a spacestation and i'd own the design/rights etc. to it?


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (bugasm99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bugasm99* »_I usually try and stay out of this stuff, but after working as a fabricator off and on for 3 years at reputable VW/Audi/Porsche tuner, I do have my own feelings on this matter.
Travis, I understand your feelings on this subject. But I think this only holds true if you are producing a one off product that will never be reproduced for any sort of profit on the fabricators end. If the fabricator plans on taking the final product and then mass producing this for their own profit, then all bets are off.
There is no formal law that says the fabricator has to give the car owner a break, but it is an understanding. The frabricator is giving up time, and money while the car owner is giving up his car. The car owner will pay a reasonable fee which will be aproximately the cost of the final product.
I am not trying to take sides in this as I would like to see this finally come to fruition, but SMG has a point in that you cannot expect someone to fund an entire fabrication, testing, tuning session out of their own product, to have the fabricator turn around a reproduce the product for his own profit.
as an example, I am personally a Graphic Designer. I would not expect someone to pay me to develop a logo for them, and then turn around and resell that logo to someone else. 
Either you the owner pays and retains all rights, or the fabricator helps to fund the project.
 hmm goodpoint..


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (bugasm99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bugasm99* »_
Travis, I understand your feelings on this subject. But I think this only holds true if you are producing a one off product that will never be reproduced for any sort of profit on the fabricators end. If the fabricator plans on taking the final product and then mass producing this for their own profit, then all bets are off.
There is no formal law that says the fabricator has to give the car owner a break, but it is an understanding. The frabricator is giving up time, and money while the car owner is giving up his car. The car owner will pay a reasonable fee which will be aproximately the cost of the final product..

I'm sorry....I just don't see how the guinnea pig of this project gets rights to anything that is designed by the fabricator to make it work. He's paying for the work to be done, (however much that may be) but thats it. The only way I could see it being any different is if the guinnea pig goes in with blueprints and literally tells what gets made and how. Same goes to get it tuned. 
People don't work for free. Even the guinnea pig has to fork up some cash to get things done. It's pretty much a given you'll pay way less becuase of the fact that you're volunteering your car and charger. But to think you get a piece of the pie just because you donate your car for the "cause"? Nah.


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

I am in no way saying that the person who donates their car is getting a piece of the pie, and they in no way hold rights to the design. What I am saying is that they cannot be expected to fund the whole project so that the fabricator can turn around and resell the product that someone else just funded. In fact, the guinea pig (car owner) usually gets a discount since they are lending their car for the development.
This is the concept behind a shop owner having a development vehicle. If USRT had an mk4 AEG of thier own they would not have to give a discount to anyone since they could do the development on their own vehicle, and in turn sell their own product. Since they do not have the vehicle, however, they must give a discount in order to pursuade someone else to loan their vehicle.
The real truth behind all of this is if USRT truly wants to develop this as a product they can sell, or simply build a one off and call it a day. This will determine how the financial side is worked out.


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (bugasm99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bugasm99* »_What I am saying is that they cannot be expected to fund the whole project so that the fabricator can turn around and resell the product that someone else just funded. In fact, the guinea pig (car owner) usually gets a discount since they are lending their car for the development.

I never said they would end up funding the _whole_ project....I simply stated that there would be _some_ cost to the car owner......there HAS to be. 
People dont work for free. 
Materials aren't free. 
Tuning time isnt free.


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Well seeing how you would be supplying the *car and BBM supercharger*, my guess is you would pay for all the labor to make it work and metal stock. 

car + charger + $ for labor + $ for materials = *everything needed*
I think at this point with both agree so there is no point debating this anymore. Basically someone has to step up with a car they can loan out, and enough funding an entire kit, no more, no less.


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

My main argument was that USRT would take a lot of time to figure out how to make the thing actually work, resulting in a huge bill for the car donor.
If you can guarantee the owner a fair price, which is what you're hoping to market the kit for, that is totally fair. But, if they have to pay for the R&D time on a product that you plan to bring to market, hence saving you guys the cost of researching and developing the product, and making someone else pay for it. That's downright crooked.
I had an insanely high opinion of USRT before today, now I really don't know.
That's just not how you do business.
SMG


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
What *do* you own? A working MKIV 2.0 with a BBM supercharger. 
What you *don't* own...the way Greg figured out how to make it work, and the chip programing it took Jeff to tune it.
Unless *you* go in there with the plans from start-to-finish to make the necessary parts to make it work and the correct chip programming to make it run right, I honestly don't see what you own other than a car that runs.]

If you pay for a custom chip, how is it fair for that same chip to then be resold as a cheaper chip? If you pay Greg's labour while he figures out how to make it work, how is that fair if you then copy this custom charger kit and market it at a lower price?
Like I said, you have to spend money to make money. I'm a graphic designer as well, and Bugasm99 had an awesome point. I make sets of toolbar icons for developers. 90 icons per set and I can sell them to as many people I want as I own complete ownership to the icons. However, if someone hires me to make a custom icon for them, I can't turn around and include it in my next icon set if they paid for it as a custom job. When I'm developing an icon set for mass-sale, I don't get paid for my time while I'm working. The payment comes later when I actually sell my sets. You guys just seem to be too cheap to take unpaid time to develop a product to sell.
Craziness..
SMG


----------



## domin4nt (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_
Like I said, you have to spend money to make money. I'm a graphic designer as well, and Bugasm99 had an awesome point. I make sets of toolbar icons for developers. 90 icons per set and I can sell them to as many people I want as I own complete ownership to the icons. However, if someone hires me to make a custom icon for them, I can't turn around and include it in my next icon set if they paid for it as a custom job. When I'm developing an icon set for mass-sale, I don't get paid for my time while I'm working. The payment comes later when I actually sell my sets. You guys just seem to be too cheap to take unpaid time to develop a product to sell.
Craziness..
SMG

So what you're saying is that if a heart surgeon develops a custom, experimental pace maker for someone. After it passes through all it's testing, he has to pay royalties to that patient for each pace maker after that? Sure, I know you're going to respond with, "that's completely different". It a sense it is, but it's all boils down to the same concept. Everything starts somewhere, if an idea stems from making brackets or whatever for this charger, then a product should be allowed to be sold without royalties being paid.
If I donate a kidney to science, should I be expecting royalties for every new medication they come out with because of my kidney? Hell no
To quote you
"Craziness.."


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (domin4nt)*

Fellas,
snap out of it already!







Lets keep this on topic. Rather than arguing about who gets to collect royalties for a non-existing product, lets focus on how to make this work....


----------



## domin4nt (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_Fellas,
snap out of it already!







Lets keep this on topic. Rather than arguing about who gets to collect royalties for a non-existing product, lets focus on how to make this work....

I could not agree more! 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to rational thinking


----------



## gargameliob (Jul 16, 2001)

*Re: (domin4nt)*

Let's do this Leroyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!! Jeeeennkins..
In all honestly tho, I would buy this kit for $3300+ if it can get me 150hp to the floor.


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (gargameliob)*

I give up.. lol.
I'm not the poor bastard who's going to have to bankroll it, so who cares.. right?
SMG


----------



## Pry (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bugasm99* »_The real truth behind all of this is if USRT truly wants to develop this as a product they can sell, or simply build a one off and call it a day. This will determine how the financial side is worked out.

thats it right there. BBM was in the same situation when they tried to develop the kit. they needed a donor car. to make it worthwhile for the person donating the car as a guinea pig BBM offered a slightly discounted price on the first kit to the owner of the donor car. BBM paid for the R&D and even lost a bit of profit for the favor of lending the car. so like SMG and others are saying, if USRT/HKK took the design of the first kit and then re-sold it for a profit that would be messed up. if they invested their own money to make it work then its legit.


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_My main argument was that USRT would take a lot of time to figure out how to make the thing actually work, resulting in a huge bill for the car donor.

Really? Have you actually talked with anyone about this, or are you just assuming?? 

_Quote, originally posted by *SomeMacGuy* »_
I had an insanely high opinion of USRT before today, now I really don't know.
That's just not how you do business.
SMG

Just so you know, I don't work for Scott, nor do I work for Greg. Other than them being my friends, I have no offiliation other than being a product consumer, just like anyone else. Everything I said is common buisness sense...at least to _me_. Don't base your opinions on a company off of my (obviously







) senseless ramblings. All Im trying to do here with my replies is to pop the _"I wanna be the first so I can have everything for freeeeeee"_ bubble.
It would be nice if one of them would chime in here and either back me up or tell me I'm wrong...but either way, I give up. My head hurts from all this arguing. Good luck with this project guys. I really hope it works out for you. You definitely get screwed when it comes to the aftermarket.


_Modified by tdogg74 at 9:17 AM 5-23-2006_


----------



## hkk735 (Jul 14, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

ok, sorry this has gone on this long, just got back from a race weekend.
basically it boils down to this:
if you people want this to happen, this is what I need...1 mk4 car, 1 charger that is to be used. i will make this all work, take it to jeff and he will tune the software. yes their IS an exspense to the customer, it will be NOWHERE near what you might think. our shop rate is $50/HR-does that mean that every hour i spend developing this they get charged??? not even close. basically it boils downn to this-you will need to pay for a manifold ( materials cost, no charge for labor on building it) pay for some stock to make the bracketry ( again, no charge for the labor) etc, etc, etc. the first person to get this will be getting a HELL of a deal, in all reality it wil be around 1/3 of market price. no $2500 labor charge thrown in...sorry but my time is worth money, if you think its unreasonable for me to donate my time to make something YOU want then you have issues, all im looking for in this project is to cover materials cost and chip tuning.my whole outlook is to not LOSE money out of pocket on this, time is donated. basically this project could happen or not happen and it wouldnt bother me either way-i dont have a mk4 and i dont play w/superchargers ( mk3 and turbo all the way for ME)
quite frankly i dont know anyone else who is even WILLING to touch this project. so if you have any further ?'s or want to talk about numbers on what it might take to make this happe n feel free to call the shop and we can discuss...603-863-9800 thanks, greg


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## tofush0e (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_...steve has no feelings...
















I feel for Pagano. I feel. +1+1+1 You're still a hero of mine Steve. 
Anyway, how different is this project from a custom turbo setup as far as figuring out how thing will work out in piping and mounting? Software I understand needs to be custom burned but as far as hardware is concerned, it's all going to be parts already produced by USRT/HKK and BBM. BBM charger, USRT/HKK manifold, HKK custom fabricated piping. damn people, y'all need to calm down. I understand that it took a lot of planning to put this idea together, and props to Vasillilov for having this idea and wanting so much to see it become a reality. If anyone jumps into this balls first, props to them too, but I don't think royalties should be paid unless one man put all this **** together by himself. 
That said, I'd like to see where this goes and Greg is the man for having the nads to donate labor time for the first person to have this fabricated.


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (hkk735)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hkk735* »_ok, sorry this has gone on this long, just got back from a race weekend.
basically it boils down to this:
if you people want this to happen, this is what I need...1 mk4 car, 1 charger that is to be used. i will make this all work, take it to jeff and he will tune the software. yes their IS an exspense to the customer, it will be NOWHERE near what you might think. our shop rate is $50/HR-does that mean that every hour i spend developing this they get charged??? not even close. basically it boils downn to this-you will need to pay for a manifold ( materials cost, no charge for labor on building it) pay for some stock to make the bracketry ( again, no charge for the labor) etc, etc, etc. the first person to get this will be getting a HELL of a deal, in all reality it wil be around 1/3 of market price. no $2500 labor charge thrown in...sorry but my time is worth money, if you think its unreasonable for me to donate my time to make something YOU want then you have issues, all im looking for in this project is to cover materials cost and chip tuning.my whole outlook is to not LOSE money out of pocket on this, time is donated. basically this project could happen or not happen and it wouldnt bother me either way-i dont have a mk4 and i dont play w/superchargers ( mk3 and turbo all the way for ME)
quite frankly i dont know anyone else who is even WILLING to touch this project. so if you have any further ?'s or want to talk about numbers on what it might take to make this happe n feel free to call the shop and we can discuss...603-863-9800 thanks, greg

Sounds good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Someone step up already!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

Whoa, guys. Ultimately, there is one person who calls shots at USRT and that is me, Scott F. Williams.. There is one person who calls shots at HKK Motorsports, and that is our fabrication partner, Greg Haley. This is the very first time that I've posted in this thread and yet there is all sorts of discussion about what USRT is going to do, how we will behave, that we're being unfair, etc. Assumptions and value calls have been made about what we owe or will owe people.








Meanwhile, we haven't agreed to even take on this project. Heck, we haven't even discussed it publically! Other firms have elected not to help y'all. Perhaps there's a reason? Don't take the fun out of this venture before we even get started, okay?








Remember that business terms are negotiated and not demanded. We're not obligated to build *anything * for you, your buddy, or his goldfish's uncle if we don't want to or if we feel that we'll lose on the deal for any reason. Is this a demonstration of Mk4 entitlement? Mk3 and older folks sure seem more humble. Finally, USRT/HKK will pick who we work with and together with that person we will decide on the appropriate discount, terms, and all logistics.
On a more gentle note, please realize that this organization is enthusiast-driven. We are passionate about our cars, serving our customers, and the VW/Audi performance market as a whole. We make sacrifices, are as generous as we can afford to be, and look out for folks. People who work with us on these special projects are taken care of appropriately and professionally. Part of that means that the chosen partner does not incur the R&D costs which we bear ourselves. The notion that this R&D cost would be passed on baffles me. Where did that come from???
We're friendly and are usually just an email or an IM away. If you'd like to know USRT's policy on something, please ASK us.


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! ([email protected])*

Ok, I misunderstood, I apologize for being a giant dick.








SMG


----------



## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

Greg and Scott, you both have IMs


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

wow, this snowballed fast. As Scott said, they are enthusiasts and so are we. I think everyone is nervous about being the one who gets screwed in this deal, but no one is actually looking to screw anyone else so that point is mute.
Hell, if I was a little bit farther along in starting my own business I would jump on this, i'm right across the bridge.


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

I wish I was closer to the NH/CT area!







I am too far away. I have money and I have desire to get this done. For me this will be a logistical nightmare!
I can offer to donate a spare 2.0 ECU from a 1998 Beetle for this project if needed. 


_Modified by vasillalov at 7:44 PM 5-23-2006_


----------



## gargameliob (Jul 16, 2001)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

bump, because I really want this to happen because I can't stand how the neuspeed SC looks with the huge Neuspeed engraving on it


----------



## GreenGolfGreen (Aug 23, 2005)

we need to get more info on this. stat. what parts we can buy and what not.. & why does it have to have an intake manifold? why can you just run the charger in front of the engine move the alt and have it hook up to the current intake?


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

The outlet of the supercharger is on the passenger side, so in a mkIII application, this means shorter plumbing. On the mkIV's, the TB is on the other side, so now you have to make several bends, plus several feet of tubing, just to get it to the TB. I don't remember exactly where I read this, but every bend causes a miniscule drop in boost. So routing a ton of piping from the outlet towards the fender, down into the bumper, up from the bumper to the other side, then to the TB, I would imagine you would be looking at a nice pressure drop.


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## tofush0e (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (abawp)*

That is why they were proposing a custom intake manifold (such as an SRI made for the "kit) in order to accomodate the supercharger. I'd get the BBM kit for my mk3 but I don't want to use the stock intake mani and I wanted to make sure I could get a passenger-side tb sri (although I sort of need the money first). Putting this together would take more innovation and thought than slapping crap into the engine bay and hoping that it works. I understand that it would increase the cost of the unit to have a custom fabbed intake mani but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. Besides, who wants the stock intake mani?







Anyway, I probably shouldn't have any input because this entire project does not affect me as I never plan on getting a mk4 and I currently do not have one to begin with. I would, however, like to see the development of new ideas, whether or not they apply to my own belongings.


----------



## the_m_f_s (May 29, 2006)

is a 2.0 with 160000miles out of the question?


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## tofush0e (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (the_m_f_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_m_f_s* »_is a 2.0 with 160000miles out of the question?

It really depends on how much you beat on your car and how well you maintained it. Lots around here can tell you about people starting to boost at 150k+ and still having reliable cars in the end. You obviously do this at your own risk but the 2.0 is a pretty sturdy motor; the driver does more damage than the boost.


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## hkk735 (Jul 14, 2001)

*Re: (the_m_f_s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_m_f_s* »_is a 2.0 with 160000miles out of the question?

my first turbo experiment started on a mk3 2.0 w/ 167,000 miles....really awful software, stock cr, and me trying to find out how much boost you could push on stock cr....it lasted about 12,000 miles before i wiped it out ( my own stupidity)


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (hkk735)*

Any takers? Someone volunteer please.








For the sake of all 2.0L MK4's.. volunteer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## the_m_f_s (May 29, 2006)

about how much time in a hotel are we talking about here? this seems like something that could take some time......ballpark?


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## the_m_f_s (May 29, 2006)

oh yeah, and about the " how well do take care of your car" part, lets just say, i'm one of those guys that changed his oil @500 miles then @1000, then @2000, and then again untill every 5000 on 5000. i get alot of slack for the love of my car, but i still use the same lawn mower from when i was eight. one pull start too.


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## gargameliob (Jul 16, 2001)

*Re: (the_m_f_s)*

Back from the dead


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## 2.0LGtiPwr (Mar 23, 2002)

*Re: (gargameliob)*

How does a customer (me) deal with *1*: Purchasing this kit and *2*: troubleshooting any problems that come up 
*IF* this is not done as a joint venture between BBM and USRT or HKK. Hopefully this doesn't turn out to be something where I buy the charger from one company, the manifold from another, the brackets from another, and so on and so forth just in order to make a very interesting idea work.


----------



## 2.0LGtiPwr (Mar 23, 2002)

*Re: (2.0LGtiPwr)*

^^^
Oohh ....... and the instructions on how everything goes together from the Vortex


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (2.0LGtiPwr)*

This is totally a dead topic isn't it?
SMG


----------



## GaTeIg (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*


----------



## hkk735 (Jul 14, 2001)

*Re: (GaTeIg)*

not dead, im still willing for what its worth


----------



## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (hkk735)*

its worth more then I can afford right now, i know that much.


----------



## jordub (May 10, 2006)

SO BBM's only problem is the heat from the exhaust manifold?


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (jordub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jordub* »_SO BBM's only problem is the heat from the exhaust manifold?

Correct.


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (vasillalov)*


----------



## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (jordub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jordub* »_SO BBM's only problem is the heat from the exhaust manifold?

a heat shield should be prettty easy to fabricate


----------



## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (the_q_jet)*

Or what about a custom exhaust mani? How cramped is it back there exactly?


----------



## randallhb (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*

Who cares anymore ... Lets just wait and hope for the kinetic turbo kit just announced


----------



## DutchcaribbeanGTI (Dec 7, 2000)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

First of all, I am not familiar with the AEG engine.
Have you guy look into swapping in the MK3 ABA accesories bracket, belt system?
Which would relocate the alt to a lower position.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (DutchcaribbeanGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DutchcaribbeanGTI* »_First of all, I am not familiar with the AEG engine.
Have you guy look into swapping in the MK3 ABA accesories bracket, belt system?
Which would relocate the alt to a lower position.

Not gonna work. The AEG accessories are way different and mounted completely different than the ABA. There is only accessory belt. The coolant pump is timing belt driven and the alternator sits higher, closer to the lower intake runners.


----------



## AutoCrosser11 (Jun 23, 2004)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (vasillalov)*

I just stumbled onto this thread; I still don't see why this won’t work. Mount the charger to the back of the engine and deal with the heat. A better heat shield can be made, or make a tube header and wrap in header tape. or put a heat shield over a header wrapped in header tape. Then top it off with a hood scoop and we should be all set. Once this year's autocross season is over I think I will give this a try. Only help I will need is engine management. Now who is willing to help me with that part???


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Possible Solution to MK4 + BBM Charger! Brainstorming inside! (AutoCrosser11)*

For engine management talk to C2 motorsports.


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

I would be interested in this if there wasnt the fact that my ride is a DD.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

I dont agree with BBM's comment on the heat issue (looks like the cowards way out), just heat wrap the exhaust or Fab up a better heat shield. Then mount it in the back, pipe it to a FMIC (just like the turbo setups) and back up to the SRI. All that we would need would be belt routing.


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (ejg3855)*

Bump for a dead thread! Keeping the dream alive.


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## DVLAX (Dec 8, 2007)

yeah too bad they dont make those manifolds nymore, or that chip tuning alone for this would be at least a grand


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

i bet a C2 could produce a chip for underr $500. Prolly need new injectors too. 
C2 currently chips for the neuspeed


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## DVLAX (Dec 8, 2007)

yeah, after they made the chip they would sell it for 500, but a custom burn, which would be required for there to even be a chip costs 1200, trust me i kno


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

someone go and make this happen.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (ejg3855)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ejg3855* »_someone go and make this happen.


Greg, fire up the mill.


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (ejg3855)*

x2 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (SomeMacGuy)*

*Stil*l keeping the dream alive.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (SMG8vT)*

Figured I'd bump this again for the hell of it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubbugman53 (Nov 7, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Jesus Christ Jordan ( i know how your brain works im not calling you Jesus Christ).......talk about bringing back the dead


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (vdubbugman53)*

You know how I feel about this.







As much as I love the Kinetic turbo setup I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a screaming lysholm.


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## vdubbugman53 (Nov 7, 2006)

*FV-QR*

this thread needs to die!


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## silentsee4 (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (vdubbugman53)*

die thread!


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (silentsee4)*

You want it to die so you bumped it after 8 days? Brilliant.


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## silentsee4 (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (SMG8vT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SMG8vT* »_You want it to die so you bumped it after 8 days? Brilliant.









thats the point, I like the ideas in here


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## Venkman (Jun 24, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (silentsee4)*

This thread is kinda obsolete unless BBM come up with a solution to their charger supplier 'situation', which seeing as they now sell turbo kits for the 2.0 isn't looking very promising. It is a shame because I really wanted one of those, guess I'll have to hit up the classifieds when the time comes.


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## V-DubStep (Nov 9, 2010)

*alittle late*

so i just found this thread and i have a mk3 running the bbm kit as well as a mk4 jetta 2.0 i would be willing to use them both if i had the money for the fabrication/ecu tuning :banghead:


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## Pabskalli (Dec 23, 2018)

*Well..*

So has anything actually happened??


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