# VRT running very rich and missing



## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

*Pics added*

Well my guys just installed a stage 3 kinetic kit with 60lb injectors and UM tune from Jeff but the car seems to be running really rich at idle and misses under any load. They can't seem to figure it out and I thought I'd ask the experts here what the likely/common culprits could be. Car was running fine before the install. Head was removed by shop and resurfaced before the head spacer was thrown in. Piston heads micro polished. ARP head studs. New ring lands/rings. SAI delete. Aux radiator delete. Car has been there for 3 weeks now and I'm starting to get frustrated. All help is greatly appreciated! Pics of progress:


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Boost leaks, Backwards maf, inncorrect fuel pressure. come to mind. Damn 3 weeks that's a while.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks man. I'll have them look into those. Ya 3 weeks...they said it would be one week. Im getting a little annoyed. Is it ok of I PM u with a quick question I'd rather not ask here?


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## Scrubbs (Mar 14, 2006)

New ring lands/rings??? How do you replace a ring land? Micro polishing piston heads? Why not coat the pistons while they were out?


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Scrubbs said:


> New ring lands/rings??? How do you replace a ring land? Micro polishing piston heads? Why not coat the pistons while they were out?


 My bad...tbh, I've never tore apart an engine before so I was trying to relay the info the shop gave me and obviously was wrong lol. I do all the work on my car myself but with me being a perfectionist, this being my daily driver and this being my first turbo build...I figured the best thing would be to hand it over to some people that could do it faster and get it up and running ASAP. I'd have loved to tear it apart myself but I'm sure it would take forever to get it up and running. 

Anyhow, ya regarding the micro polish....that's what he said. I posted a pic above that I think that's what he was referring to. I'm just frustrated ATM so any info that I could possibly suggest and forward to them would be really helpful in getting my car running properly.


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## Scrubbs (Mar 14, 2006)

Im all for making pistons last, but again i ask, why not coat them while they were out. Were they taken out? Rings would require that, but then do you have the gap info. But as far as polishing the piston.... they look like they were scuffed with scotch brite to remove the carbon. And still i would have the skirts coated and tops thermal barriered.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Scrubbs said:


> Im all for making pistons last, but again i ask, why not coat them while they were out. Were they taken out? Rings would require that, but then do you have the gap info. But as far as polishing the piston.... they look like they were scuffed with scotch brite to remove the carbon. And still i would have the skirts coated and tops thermal barriered.


 Hey man, thx for the reply. To answer your question, no I don't believe the piston was removed(at least not that I know of). My guess is that once the head was off they saw all the carbon buildup and just gave it a good cleaning. Only reason I didn't go with new pistons/rods was that I thought it would drastically up the cost of installation of the kit. I guess u live and u learn...story of my vr6. Before this car I'd never even changed my oil...and just with research, lots of reading and willingness I've learned how to pretty much do all the work myself(granted electrical, internals or transmission related I'll pass lol). But I'm learning as I go and learn something new everyday(it's a vr6 so new problems arise which lead me to do more research and learn new things). 

Back on topic, I believe my guy is very competent as the shop is very well known(I'd rather not mention the shop name) in California but I'm beginning to think this might be their first turbo install. They've done a lot of good, clean maintenance work on my far thus far but I'm really starting to think my car is their first turbo install because the last time I heard an update it was already 70hrs of work! And counting prob as they're trying to figure this problem out.

Anyhow, if you or anyone else had some clues or hints as to what this problem might be I'd really appreciate your opinion/input so that 1)I have an idea of what's going on with my car over there at the shop and 2) I can relay the info to them. 

Thx and sorry for the long post.


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## Scrubbs (Mar 14, 2006)

Wow, 70 hours....thats alot of labor for a turbo kit install. Even with head rework. Go over the basics, the tune requires. make sure you have 60 lb injectors and not 80lb, check for O2 sensor activity, not pegged rich. or lean. MAke sure Jeff has the proper info, the tune may be adjusted up or down for wrong info. Double check fuel pressure. and fuel quality.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Scrubbs said:


> Wow, 70 hours....thats alot of labor for a turbo kit install. Even with head rework. Go over the basics, the tune requires. make sure you have 60 lb injectors and not 80lb, check for O2 sensor activity, not pegged rich. or lean. MAke sure Jeff has the proper info, the tune may be adjusted up or down for wrong info. Double check fuel pressure. and fuel quality.


Yeah I was talking to him about this already. 70 hrs is nuts. I pulled off my engine pull and build in about 3 days in a driveway. Since then I have built and rewired a standalone into a buddies corrado at about 50 hours work.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Were the plug wires bundled together like that before?
Did you double check timing?


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

Whats your voltage at idle?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I thought the 60lbs tune was for a ProMAF... I see a stock sensor in a 4" housing in your pics though... parts mix up?


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> I thought the 60lbs tune was for a ProMAF... I see a stock sensor in a 4" housing in your pics though... parts mix up?


I run 60lbs w/ stock MAF in the exact same housing. It's 24v however but still - no issues.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

DieGTi said:


> I thought the 60lbs tune was for a ProMAF... I see a stock sensor in a 4" housing in your pics though... parts mix up?


He's got a *Mk4 *12v Vr so stock MAF is correct.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Gotcha. I'm seeing a downsize directly following the MAF sensor... I think this would potentially play with the flow.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

What are the hot compression numbers?
Are you seeing an active o2 sensor once its warm?


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

My setup is very similar to yours (VRT UM 630) and I have been trying to figure out these same problems for a while now. 

What kind of plugs are you running and what is the gap? How much boost? How's your idle?

My car was pegging rich at idle, missing under high boost, and eventually started flooding out at idle. I replaced the front O2 sensor and that stopped it from flooding out, and it runs now, but I'm still rich. 

Swapped to the DUI Screamin Demon Ford Mustang coilpack w/ NGK BKR8EIX plugs and it doesn't miss near as much under boost. Runs much smoother with better idle, and helps combat the rich conditions.

I had my car at a shop today to check for boost leaks, they didn't have a way to pressure test, but they did have a smoke tester. Checked it out and no leaks. They took a look at it with VAGCOM and noticed my maf numbers looked off, so we swapped in a new maf. Mine had already been replaced with a brand new Bosch one about 8 months ago (car had only been running for less than 4 though), but the new one seemed to work much better and brought my maf numbers back to normal and it's no longer pegging rich, though I'm still throwing the system too rich codes. The car is running fairly well at 14 psi now, but is nowhere near it's full potential.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

The maf sensors respond well to regular crc cleaner application.


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## KMSgolf (May 9, 2004)

R32Smoker said:


> What kind of plugs are you running and what is the gap? How much boost? How's your idle?


x2

If plugs are stock that will cause mis fire right when you hit boost. It took me a long time to figure out when i first built my car.

Its so simple sometimes its overlooked.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Scrubbs said:


> Wow, 70 hours....thats alot of labor for a turbo kit install. Even with head rework. Go over the basics, the tune requires. make sure you have 60 lb injectors and not 80lb, check for O2 sensor activity, not pegged rich. or lean. MAke sure Jeff has the proper info, the tune may be adjusted up or down for wrong info. Double check fuel pressure. and fuel quality.


Thx man. Ya, I'm feelin a bit screwed here as far as the labor goes. I remember him mentioning it taking longer because I "decided to go with a mk3 intake" when it's the same exact Sri for a mk4 so other than the lower intake manifold gasket it's all the same plumbing. I really feel ripped off but we'll see how much the total is when the far is ready. 

I'll def relay the above info. Thx.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> Were the plug wires bundled together like that before?
> Did you double check timing?


No actually they weren't. I thought of arching but figured I'd seen several setups with wires bundled at some point...not to say that makes it right way.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Yareka said:


> Whats your voltage at idle?


Wish I knew. I'll ask them tomorrow and post back. This is what I was afraid of...something going wrong and since I didn't do the work, I have no clue what or where the problem could be. I'll get back to u though as that seems like pretty relevant info to have anyhow.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

'dubber said:


> What are the hot compression numbers?
> Are you seeing an active o2 sensor once its warm?


Wish I had the car to go outside and get the info. I'll ask and post back.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

KMSgolf said:


> x2
> 
> If plugs are stock that will cause mis fire right when you hit boost. It took me a long time to figure out when i first built my car.
> 
> Its so simple sometimes its overlooked.


Plugs are the ones that came with the kinetic stage 3 kit from CTS which i believe are ngk bkr7e. I could be wrong but that's what I remember it being.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

R32Smoker said:


> My setup is very similar to yours (VRT UM 630) and I have been trying to figure out these same problems for a while now.
> 
> What kind of plugs are you running and what is the gap? How much boost? How's your idle?
> 
> ...


Interesting you mentioned the coil pack because I did forget to mention in my original post that they said it was misfiring and that they think I need a new coilpack. I told them that I was pretty sure my coilpack was fine since I had no misfires prior to the install but told them to swap it out with a new oem one to see if it solves the problem. I guess it didn't because that was the last I heard about the coilpack. But I did change the plug wires with oem bosch ones not too long ago.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

So I contacted them requesting an update and was told that my logs were sent to Jeff and said that he needed additional information. I'm told that the additional info was obtained and sent to Jeff a week ago but they haven't heard back from them. I'm going to put together all the possible culprits you guys have suggested and email them first thing tomorrow morning. I really appreciate all the help guys.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Have them clean the maf sensor with the spray... can make a huuuuge difference.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> Have them clean the maf sensor with the spray... can make a huuuuge difference.


I clean it with crc maf cleaner once a month religiously and cleaned it before I took it in. Although, I will add that to the list of stuff everyone's mentioned when I speak with them. Thx


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Hey guys, so I got an update and some info that might help. Nothing much buy heres what was emailed to me: 

will recheck the maf
gapped the plugs
I put a 630 file on the car, we need to verify these are 630 inj
checked fuel pressure with out gauge OK
new 02, stuck cold. this is the issue.
smoke test OK

Also, what Jeff replied after we sent the logs of the car:

From Jeff: 

Lambda control is NOT active in these logs.

Look like CLT is ~cold...

I'll see if I can get a log of the car if that helps. My guys are leaning towards it being incorrect injector/tune combo.


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Today log block 32 scanned. Looks like o2 sensor is stuck at 102 degrees and won't move regardless or rpm. We've swapped o2 sensors with new ones and contacting Jeff today. I hope this finally solves the problem...I really miss my car


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## Scrubbs (Mar 14, 2006)

Wiring , ? Bad ecu, since no heat circuit function?Check to see if you have the voltage in the heating circuit. I the power is there and the sensor is new, then more than likely the function is there, just not being calculated by the ecm, ( resistance if i am correct) Go over the harness. cover the basics, and dont cheat


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

Scrubbs said:


> Wiring , ? Bad ecu, since no heat circuit function?Check to see if you have the voltage in the heating circuit. I the power is there and the sensor is new, then more than likely the function is there, just not being calculated by the ecm, ( resistance if i am correct) Go over the harness. cover the basics, and dont cheat


 Ah Scrubbs..,I was hoping you wouldn't say ecu That's what they think it might be too. He said something about "sometimes installing a wideband fry the ecu". I'm really hoping this isn't the case...I'm really tapped out financially on this build(and I still need to get the notch filled, new wheels and bumpers painted). VW addiction is no joke!


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