# too much pad?



## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

I recently upgraded to Ferodo DS2500frt/Hawk HPS rear. This was in anticipation of some track time this summer. (I was going to IM this question directly to phatvw, but I figured this might be good discussion for the forum)
So for street application, I notice that initial bite is similar to OEM. But moderate to mod-heavy braking requires more pedal pressure. Keep adding pressure and you get lots of braking. But compared to most other cars, the medium to medium heavy pedal pressure required for most quick stops is a little more than I'd like.
Now, on the track. I had as much braking force as I asked for. No sign of fading either. I consistently was at the tire's limits rather than the brakes. But there, I'm expecting to apply lots of pedal pressure. This is not the case when cruising on the arterials or highways.
What would be one step down from the DS2500 for street application that can still see some track time? Or, what combination of rotors/pads would help with the pedal modulation or feel for street application? I figure I'll track my car 3-4 times in the summer but have to drive it on the street the rest of the time.
Am I stuck with getting larger rotors, larger calipers and pads and running a less aggressive pad?


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

Ferodo has another pad, the DS2000 that may be more what you are looking for. Porterfield R4S may be another good choice.


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## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

My favorite street pad is the porterfield R4S, though the DS2000 might also fit the bill. Lots of people change their front pads for track events. So why not go with a lower temp pad.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (jamesb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesb* »_
My favorite street pad is the porterfield R4S, though the DS2000 might also fit the bill. Lots of people change their front pads for track events. So why not go with a lower temp pad.

Ok, this sounds interesting. Would there be any issues with pad memory or rotor memory of the two different sets of pads? I wouldn't mind having two sets of pads; one for track duty and one for street duty if there wasn't a safety issue of hot-swapping pads.
BTW, the DS2000 is discontinued. I think you can still get some from parts4vws.com, but can't find it anywhere else.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

If you swap pads it would be a good idea to get an extra set of rotors for the track pads.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (NOVAdub)*

Hey Paul.
I too notice that you have to press pretty hard to get some action from the Ferodo's. I think this is because in street driving they never get hot enough to really be at their peak friction level. The friction isn't bad cold, its just not great. On the track they do perform better.
I dunno, I still like the feel of the Ferodo's on the street though. I find them easy to modulate so that I can do both easy stops and hard stops. With my girlfriend's (ooops fiancé now) brakes, I don't have to press quite as hard to get maximum braking, but the modulation is far less linear. I really can't get used to it and I'll sometimes brake too hard and bring the car to a lurching halt. I really don't like the oem pads at all.

I understand your concern with having to press the pedal in so hard just for driving around town. Perhaps Hawk HPS in front would do the trick for city driving? Separate rotors for track days is a good idea, but keep in mind that this solution will probably add two hours total prep time for each track event (1 hour on each end). I decided that it wasn't worth all that extra time and just went with the tougher pads for everyday use.


_Modified by phatvw at 12:59 PM 7-13-2005_


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: too much pad? (phatvw)*

Hey there... your pads just don't have enough heat to have the"Bite" you're seeking. You have advanced pads which require heat to perform properly. So you will never have the proper pedal / braking feel that you require. 
Me say:
1. Downgrade pads... swap these in for track days
2. Live with it








3. You don't have to buy more rotors to swap pads. You'll be fine, i do it ALL the time.
- Sean


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (osbornsm)*

So how much brake dust should I expect from the ferodo and hawk pads? I'm seeing much less dust than the redbox I tried.
I suppose if the DS2500 are semi-metallics, then there'd be a little less dust.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

Im running ferodo street pads/hawk HPS rear and the hawks are pretty reasonable as far as dust. The ferodo pads however dust like crazy, and they are street pads.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (NOVAdub)*

Is there a part number for the ferodo street pad? I talked to someone at Parts4vws.com and he mentioned he had a new street performance pad.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

I got mine when I bought Potterman's 337 brakes. This is the part number from parts4vw.com: FDB590A. They have been back ordered for a while.


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (NOVAdub)*

this is banditt007 on my buddys SN....i'll just 2nd what nova said the ferrodods2500 brake pads i used up front...looooots of dust. talking 3 days wheels would be coated very nicely.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (L33t A2 Jetta)*

are you running slotted rotors?
the mintex redbox i was running for a while put way more dust on my wheels than the ds2500 is. also, very little dust at all in the rears with the hawk hps.
man, did i glaze my rotors again?


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

We can swap wheels then go and bed the brakes, again!







THEN you will feel the difference between the all-seasons and the Pilot Sports






















My tires are almost gone. You can't do anything worse than I have already done to them. (Besides run over a nail).


_Modified by eggroller at 10:03 AM 7-19-2005_


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (eggroller)*

So bedding in brakes would consist of scoring the rotors and cleaning them. But what about the pads themselves? Do they need to be scored as well? Do you think we added too much heat too soon on our initial bedding? I mean, we did some rapid successions of hard braking with three of us in the car.
Heh, I wouldn't mind seeing what your wheels look like on my car though.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Man, I miss GT4. My PS2 machine crapped out on me. The dvd tray stopped moving.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_So bedding in brakes would consist of scoring the rotors and cleaning them. But what about the pads themselves?
Generally the bedding procedure for pads goes somethig like this: make 5 or so stops from 60-5mph using maybe 60-70% braking. These shoudl be done with just a little time for the brakes to cool. Then you are goign to repeat the same but use almost all of the braking force you have, just dont get into ABS. The key is to not stop the car, you dont want to hold the pad on the rotor. After you have done this park the car for several hours to completely allow the brakes to cool. The process may vary from one manufacturer to the next but they will all be pretty similar.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (NOVAdub)*

So you don't think my track time bedded in my brakes?
How do you get rid of glaze?


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_So you don't think my track time bedded in my brakes?

Well a track day should definitely ahve transferred a good amoutn of pad material to the rotors. The problem is that it may be uneven bbecause of all the high speeds but you are probably ok. You can always repeat the bedding process if you want to make sure it was done. 

_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_How do you get rid of glaze?
Do the rotors have a blueish tint to them? You cant really get rid of that because its what happens when you get them really hot. It will even happen to your tires if you ge them hot.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (NOVAdub)*

Rotors are not blue. I thought I did a good job of bedding in the brakes when I first put them on. They did very well at the track. Never faded and was always at the limits of my tires (tires are pretty chuncked from the event...all seasons on a track don't last too long.)
If I'm going down a steep hill, when I hit the brakes, I get ok initial bite. Then I press harder on the brakes and it gives me a little more, then I can feel with heat build up I start getting really good braking. I press a little more and anything not tied down is hitting my windshield.
Surprisingly, after I do a braking like that, my brake sqeal goes away. Then after a bit of cruise mode or light braking, then the squeal comes back. If I've been really granny-ing it for a while, then it's like I've got bus brake squeal








I had Raybestos semi metallics on my mk3 and found its cold braking downright dangerous. The ds2500 isn't that bad at all when cold. And the first good braking will get the warmed enough for better than oem stopping.
Something else to note. I washed my car on Saturday. I've put a good 200miles of mixed driving. And I just have a little hint of brake dust.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_
Something else to note. I washed my car on Saturday. I've put a good 200miles of mixed driving. And I just have a little hint of brake dust.









For everyday driving the brake dust isn't really that bad. And on our oem wheels, it kinda blends into the clear coat. hHe only way I notice it on my wheels is if I wipe off one spot and leave the rest. Trackdays are totally different though, and after that last event my wheels were caked in crap!
Do you notice the difference in color between the Hawk and the Ferodo pads? On mine the Ferodo is black while the Hawk is almost orangy brown.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (phatvw)*

My fronts can be black and I have very little dust on the rears.
So what street pads give off the most dust? I'm inclined to try a set.







Actually, I got a lot of dust from the redboxes you gave me for the fronts.
I'm going to pick up some anti-squeal past and put them on the pads. The squealing is killing me and bugging the heck out of my wife as well. If that doesn't cure it, I may have to run different pads on the street.
The good news is that my pedal feel is still great. So I guess the new brake fluid worked well for the track day.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

One additional thought, Dan. I know you're not in favor of slotted rotors. But I can't help feeling that one of the added benefits of the slots is to give a clean surface to bite. This would help with any glazing issues. I'm wondering if this helps with the squealing as well?


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## rocker212 (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

Traffic - how long have you had the 2500's? I'd say mine squeaked every time I came to a stop for the first 1K-2K miles. Now they never squeak. Banditt007, do yours squeak still? I think you said yours didn't anymore as well. Most people I've talked to aren't squeaking with the 2500's...
I have noticed that the 2500's do take time to heat up on the street, and their bite is somewhat compromised when cold. However, this does not bother me in daily driving.
I would also take into consideration phatvw's point of how much extra time it takes to swap brakes in and out for track use. I used to do this (Hawk Blue's up front) and it was definitely too much work. I would give the DS2500's a little time to wear in and see if they stop squeaking because I don't think you'll want to keep changing your pads in and out. Also, usually when you try to use that anti-squeal stuff it just becomes liquid when it heats up and makes a mess of the brake system (I don't know if synthetic grease would help you). I used DS2000's on the rear and they worked great at the track FWIW.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (rocker212)*

rocker212, thanks for you input. I don't seem to have squeaking problems with the hawk hps in the rears. I pull on my e-brake at very low speeds to see if I can get them to squeak and they don't. So it's all in the fronts.
What kind of rotors are you using? Again, I just wonder if the slotted rotors help with some of this. I'm running plain OEM.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

You know I'm kinda torn about the slotted rotors now.
They are noisier for sure. For example when slowing down from highway speed on an offramp, there is a definite hum that isn't there on oem rotors. Also if you press them just the right amount at the right speed, it can almost feel like mild warpage, but its just the slots doing their thing. I thought my pad wear was going to be crazy with these, but my Ferodo's aren't wearing fast at all - even after 4 or 5 track days!! And Ray measured the rotor thickness and it was fine.
I don't think the slots will help the brake squeal at all. All you can do for that is the paste on the back of the pads. Also, I found that a high pressure hose directed at the pad/rotor interface can dislodge some of the brake dust cake-up which contributes to the noise. Just remember that spraying water on the rotors like that will cause rust to form pretty quickly and your braking will be weird for a few minutes.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rocker212* »_Traffic - how long have you had the 2500's? 

I've had these pads for about 1000 miles now.

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Also, I found that a high pressure hose directed at the pad/rotor interface can dislodge some of the brake dust cake-up which contributes to the noise. Just remember that spraying water on the rotors like that will cause rust to form pretty quickly and your braking will be weird for a few minutes.

Do you mean a pressure washer or just compressed air? Hm... I do have a 2700psi pressure washer handy.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

I just talked with a guy at Speedware about my dilemna. He suggested I might try grind the leading edge of my pads to form a chamfer. And that helps out a bit (mostly done to performance street pads since no one really cares about race pads.)
He also agreed that the paste will melt off after a good hot run.
My other option is street pads.
My only hope is that the squeaking goes away after another 1000 miles I guess.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

Actaully a garden hose with a $5 home depot watering tip set to "jet" mode will clean out a lot of junk. But a 2700 psi job should work even better! Just watch out for your paint and your brake hoses









I don't think the paste will melt off for what we're doing. It will get a little runny, but it works kind of like an adhesive. I got my stuff at shucks and it is still there - although instead of appearing red, it is blackened with brake dust


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## rocker212 (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

I would give the pads some time. I have driven other DS2500 cars and they don't squeal. I remember someone else said this on the vortex a little while ago... Brakes are like a woman, they tend to whine if you're not beating on them.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (rocker212)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rocker212* »_Brakes are like a woman, they tend to whine if you're not beating on them.

Wow. Just... wow.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (phatvw)*

My only comment on beating on women is that it's not very funny even in gest.
Back to the brakes.
I drove to work in my car after not driving my car for 4 days. I didn't notice the squeal. Coincidence? I dunno. But I'll be listening closely on the way home.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_My only comment on beating on women is that it's not very funny even in gest.
Back to the brakes.
I drove to work in my car after not driving my car for 4 days. I didn't notice the squeal. Coincidence? I dunno. But I'll be listening closely on the way home.

Yeah I was hoping "beating" meant something else in that context... but I still don't understand how the simile could work without being offensive.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Now to lighten the mood, here is a good car/woman analogy:
"Using race tires is a lot like pleasing a woman. If they're not all hot and sticky when you're done, you didn't do it right."
Hey Paul, I cleaned my wheels and sprayed all the built-up dust out of my brake pads and they are a little less squeaky now. It really does help!



_Modified by phatvw at 1:46 PM 7-25-2005_


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (phatvw)*

well, the squeal is back. Seems to be not so bad if I keep everything cold. But once heated and then cooled makes the most noise.
I picked up some anti-squeal paste. They had the pink/red stuff at NAPA for $4. This stuff is like $14.







It's supposed to last longer than the red stuff.
Will see how it works.


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## 1.9..16vTurbo (Jan 25, 2004)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

I put this in another post as well but here's some guides...all PDF format
PDF Formats:
*Hawk* brake pads...
cross reference and drawings - http://essexparts.com/CatalogP...k.pdf
applications - http://essexparts.com/CatalogP...k.pdf
*Ferodo* brake pads...
http://essexparts.com/CatalogP...o.pdf
*Perfomance Friction* brake pads...
http://essexparts.com/CatalogP...C.pdf
*Mintex* brake pads...
http://essexparts.com/CatalogP...x.pdf


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (1.9..16vTurbo)*

Thanks for posting up the information.
Spent some more time driving. It bugs me that I don't have good braking until I put some heat in it. Fortunately I live on a big hill, so usually when I come down, I heat up the brakes and I have good brake afterwards.
I see from some of the description, that a firm pedal feel is part of the ferodo characteristics. That's probably the sensation I have and that phatvw likes for pedal modulation.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

So after about two months with the new setup, it feels like it's more worn in now. The squealing has gone down to very small range (like 3mph at low pedal pressure) and isn't as loud either.
The initial cold bite is a little better. Although serious braking on the first application requires A LOT of pedal pressure still. But the setup has become much more livable for streets now.
I'd say I'm still a ways from my ideal "feel." But I don't hate my brakes for streets anymore. I'm toying with the idea of installing the stock pads for the winter months. But once you've had strong braking, its tough to go back.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

Glad you are starting to like those Ferodo's. You will love em even more when you get some proper rubber


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*

I use Hawk HPS all the way around for daily driving and I switch the fronts to Hawk HP+ for track days (the track I typically go to isn't very hard on brakes, so they're perfect for my usage).
I find that the HP+ are too much pad for the street, mostly because of the increased dust and rotor wear. I also change fluid every other track day with Pentosin Racing fluid.
Just letting you know what I do and what my recommendation is.
T.C.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: too much pad? (collins_tc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *collins_tc* »_I use Hawk HPS all the way around for daily driving and I switch the fronts to Hawk HP+ for track days (the track I typically go to isn't very hard on brakes, so they're perfect for my usage).
I find that the HP+ are too much pad for the street, mostly because of the increased dust and rotor wear. I also change fluid every other track day with Pentosin Racing fluid.
Just letting you know what I do and what my recommendation is.
T.C.

Cool. Do you use the same rotors with the two sets of pads? And if so, do you do any special bedding-in procedure when you switch them out for track days?


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: too much pad? (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Cool. Do you use the same rotors with the two sets of pads? And if so, do you do any special bedding-in procedure when you switch them out for track days?


I run the same rotors and I always bed them in after switching between sets of pads. I also mark the pads when I take them off so they are always run in the same position. I wrap them in paper from a notepad and write which pad it is (i.e. "passenger inner").


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: too much pad? (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_are you running slotted rotors?
the mintex redbox i was running for a while put way more dust on my wheels than the ds2500 is. also, very little dust at all in the rears with the hawk hps.
man, did i glaze my rotors again?


Nope not running slotted rotors.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: too much pad? (rocker212)*

"Banditt007, do yours squeak still? I think you said yours didn't anymore as well. Most people I've talked to aren't squeaking with the 2500's..." 
Mine squeeked to all hell for the first 1/3 of wear, then were quiet w/ maybe light light squeel very occasionaly. if i blasted out the brakes w/ a hose every now and then the little bit of squeek would never come around. But yeah at first for thousands of miles unless i was really hard on the brakes they would squeel like you dont even want to know. They never fit good the ds2500s for me. the pads would rattle and clank around to no end from new to worn out.
I actually dont have my MKIV any more but the last pads i had on it were the PBR ulitmate ceramics.


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: too much pad? (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_ the pads would rattle and clank around to no end from new to worn out.

I wonder if this is the same thing I'm experiencing? I've got some clanking going on at low speeds. Similar sound to a floating rotor on my old sport bike.


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