# G60 + Turbo... but which turbo?



## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

Been thinking of bumping the power in my corrado.
(whew, load off my chest







)
Its a fairly simple question for something a bit more important...
I'm wondering what sized turbo would be best for a 1.8l G60 setup. I'm looking for something that would MAX out (power) at around 6500 RPM's, as the Gheezecharger peaks around that range. Along with that, I dont want to drop in a fat turbo... and then not be able to fully utilize its power.
Peak psi that i'm looking for will be around 17-18psi.
Current mods on my engine are:
Stg.4 G60
Stg.4 SNS chip
268 cam
BBM RSR outlet
68mm pulley @ 15psi
And a few other small things...
Ignore the fact that its a 1.8l setup... future plans are to drop in a 2.0 bubble block or bore out the current block.
I will be porting the G60 head and doing some work to it to acommodate better flow, and be dropping in better fuel injectors to supply enough fuel to the car.
Searching for around 250whp (reliably)... doable?

TIA 
-AJ


_Modified by the_mad_rabbit at 5:46 PM 7-27-2007_


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

for 250whp from an 8vT id seriously recommend an ABA head swap so you can easily work on a turbo and manifold(log or equal length)
a garrett T3/T04 brand new is like $600, a used k26(audi) can be had for $50-$300(just got one on ebay rebuilt for $230)
250whp will also require an SNS stage 5 custom burnt turbo chip or a switch to ABA motronic w/ a C2 chip, or standalone. 
this is my golf
















ported ABA head
g60 rods/pistons
boostfactory snake manifold
KKK k26 turbo w/ audi wastegate
saturn redline FMIC
stock digi1 injection
i just got it on the road so i dont have any numbers as the block needs to break in. im gonna order an sns stg5 soon and get some 440 injectors for some fun, we'll see how much i can squeeze out of it.
a few years ago i spoke w/ this guy running stock ABA head/g60 block, digi1 sns 5, log mani, w/ a t3/t04 and he was making 245whp @ 22psi. i think with the ported head, 260 cam and SRI/equal length mani i sould be good for that much or a bit more. ill try to post numbers before/ after.


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

Ah, i think i have been misunderstood... or wasn't clear enough. Sorry.
G60 + Turbo... meaning a G60 supercharger + a turbo.
So, i would run the boost line from the charger to the inlet of the turbo, outlet to an IC, then IC to the TB.
CO Pot would be in its same location... before the TB and after the IC.
I would also be keeping the stock TB as a "blow off" for excess boost (in the same way that it works right now with blowing off excess boost under WOT + changing gears).
HTH
-AJ


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

if your only looking for 250whp then why used a turbo and a charger? it would be a big PITA to cram both of those systems into a counterflow engine .
but good luck...


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

Oh... my engine bay has plenty of room... especially after I finish the RWD project on it















Could I break 250whp with a turbo/charger setup?


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

probly but you'd be better off useing a standalone injection system to dial in the charger boost down low, then be able to keep up with more boost when the turbo spools.
try sniffing around in the g60 forum. i know ive heard people ask about doing this before.
quick question, why the hell would you want to put or keep a 1.8L 8v in a RWD converted VW? please, please, please just use an ABA/16v and save yourself a bunch of work, and all the questions. 
plus why wouldnt you want 300whp in a RWD car? with 15psi you should be close to 300.
i was gonna stick with 8v's for simplicitys sake, but the 16v are the same, but with 1 more cam. they put out so much better.
but if your doing this to be unique, then i know i cant change your mind. but i know that about a year after you put the 8v in you'll have plans for a 16vT. i did.


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

I'll show you a good reason WHY I don't go 16v:
Racing head... trashed








What's left of cylinder #1:








And thats the 2nd one that got mangled








I like my 8v's. I like how they run smooth. I like the looks and design. And I like how they don't blow up on me















15psi @ 300? Doubtful. How would a turbo double the amount of power that I am currently making? I'm at around ~165hp atm (dynoed), hitting 15psi of boost. After doing some reading and thinking, I may just slap a K24 on there and call it a day.
This is what I had in mind:


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

this is jwatts, of SNS tuning, signature off the v-tex.:
JDW
http://www.snstuning.com
16V ABA T3/4E Turbo: [email protected] with Digi-1 controlled 60# S-S injectors.

if you dont believe me than look at this thread i started, his post is the last one on the page.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3227395
told you so, muderfahcker.
and this is on digi1 to boot. its unbelieveable, i know, but it is real.


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

that diagram looks like its running an ABA head. whats the deal? i thought you were sticking with the counterflow?


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_rabbit* »_I'll show you a good reason WHY I don't go 16v:

And thats the 2nd one that got mangled









*so what did you do to them?*

15psi @ 300? Doubtful. How would a turbo double the amount of power that I am currently making? I'm at around ~165hp atm (dynoed), hitting 15psi of boost. After doing some reading and thinking, I may just slap a K24 on there and call it a day. 

a turbo would double that cause g60 chargers suck-a$$ and 16v heads flow way better than 8v's. with a little port work a 16v intake can flow 200cfm's, thats like 40cfms more than an 8v. and that flow is what makes power, not boost. 
a tiny turbo can run 15psi but doent flow the same as a t3/t04 at 15spi. the bigger turbo flows more air at the same psi, understand?


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

too much trouble for the HP IMO...250whp? Go with a super 60 or a moderate size GT turbo (GT28R?)...lag would be minimal, the point of adding a G60 charger would be a hassle


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (GoKart_16v)*

Use the G charger as a fancy paper weight as that's all that they are...install proper software and turbo.....
but the easy way is ABA 16v ...it's a no brainer


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_
a turbo would double that cause g60 chargers suck-a$$ and 16v heads flow way better than 8v's. with a little port work a 16v intake can flow 200cfm's, thats like 40cfms more than an 8v. and that flow is what makes power, not boost. 
a tiny turbo can run 15psi but doent flow the same as a t3/t04 at 15spi. the bigger turbo flows more air at the same psi, understand?


G60's dont suck ass... the owners who are retards who don't know how to properly take care of an engine suck ass.
Tell the world something new? Who DOESN'T know that 16v's flow better than 8v's. A bit redundant there my friend.
Boost makes no power? Uh, so that, in theory, means a car pushing 5psi is as fast as a car pushing 15psi then eh?

_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_Use the G charger as a fancy paper weight as that's all that they are...install proper software and turbo.....
but the easy way is ABA 16v ...it's a no brainer

In your opinion. My cabriolet is G60'd... and im in the 13's with almost no modifications.
I will NOT go 16v.
I will NOT go purely turbo.
I WILL go G60 + turbo.
I will NOT slap on a leafblower onto my car that spools at 3k rpm.
I seriously think you guys are missing the point of what I am asking.
WHAT SIZED TURBO SHOULD I USE? (still waiting for an answer *cricket*)
A k24? A vibrator? A radiator fan?
That diagram is just to give an example of how I want the setup. That 
"intake" is by no means supposed to represent an aba head.
I am sticking to the G60 counterflow setup, 8v. No 16v... no aba this, no 2.0 that (for the time being). I like what i have.
Its effective, its efficient, I get 28mpg, smoke vr6's, etc. I'm not planning on building a 11634856183465hp setup, I'm just looking to bump my power by about 50~80hp.
Now, uh... G60 + turbo... but which turbo?
Looking for something that would stop pushing power at around 5.8k RPM, but kick in at a low RPM.

Edit:

_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_16V ABA T3/4E Turbo: [email protected] with Digi-1 controlled 60# S-S injectors.


Uhm, is that an 8v? No. Useless information to me.


_Modified by the_mad_rabbit at 9:41 PM 7-29-2007_


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*

Well I suggest you put a call in to Kompressor Canada as they are one of the few people that support these things these days.
Or perhaps John at BBM still cares...not sure as he is investing much time and money on the Lysom screw charger replacement.

Sorry for the lack of love for the unit...They have fallen out of favor for most people these days....sort of like the American v8 guys rarely use the old GMC roots chargers any longer ....well except for the top fuel funny cars and dragsters and alcohol ones as well.....but they are an odd bunch.
People tend to gravitate to newer technology.....the same reason they need a new cell phone every other week...it's just the way it goes.
Good luck on your quest.
Cheers
Dave










_Modified by Salsa GTI at 9:18 AM 7-30-2007_


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## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*

Garret T3 super 60 works nicely on my brother's G60


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (brilliantyellowg60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brilliantyellowg60* »_
Garret T3 super 60 works nicely on my brother's G60


With or without the G60 charger?


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*

Turbo magazine did an MR2 project about three years ago with a supercharger and large turbo. The supercharger spooled the turbo a little sooner and helped with low-end power, but IIRC high-rpm and peak power were not improved over the turbo alone. Needless to say, it was a pretty cool project.
I would look at compressor maps for different turbos to determine the right size, since I'm sure there are very few folks (if any) in this forum running this setup.


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_rabbit* »_

With or without the G60 charger?

without, cause nobody else would waste the time. thats all for me folks.


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_
without, cause nobody else would waste the time. thats all for me folks.























http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.

Peak HP is the one thing that does concern me... hence why im thinking of a setup that would hit full boost at 2.5k (~15psi) and hit peak power at 6.5k. With my current charger, Im hitting 10psi at around 2.5k, creeps up to 15psi at around 4.5-5k RPM.
Where can i find those maps?

TIA
-AJ


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*

internet. Most reputable manufactuers have them right on their website.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

first of all...
glader gaskets are not made for pull thru.
Your issue will be not guiding the air via the glader, but make a y junction with electronic valve...


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## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_
without, cause nobody else would waste the time. thats all for me folks.


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (brilliantyellowg60)*


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## sitinchair (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*

93
If it was a turbo only setup, I'd reccomend a t3/t4e .48 stage 3/ .60 46 trim. However, for what you want to attempt, perhaps a .63 turbine would be better suited to prevent surging and such. Your propensity for difference is definitely recognized and appreciated, but I'm sure you're aware of the issues involved with a twincharged setup. Sure it's worked properly(that lancia!), but there are many that failed with it. 
Ideally, the blower would be disconnected at a certain rpm, via a clutch or something, but I'm sure that such a setup would definitely present a whole slew of new challenges. At 17 psi, a g60 blower is'nt exactly pushing out cool air. And pre turbo charge cooling would'nt really be practical. So, if somehow you are able to master the tuning difficulties, excellent charge cooling is essential. A supplementary liquid injection system would help tons. Just be aware that there's no way you are going to achieve the same max hp levels of a turbo only setup. But since a proper 2.0t on 17psi should do low 300's whp, I'm sure 250 is within reach. Just be aware that this project has a lot of potential to turn ugly, tuning and moneywise. Good luck.
93 93/93


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (sitinchair)*

A GT28RS turbo alone would prolly hit boost quick and has good top end for what u want


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: (GoKart_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoKart_16v* »_A GT28RS turbo alone would prolly hit boost quick and has good top end for what u want

excuse me, but thats not what he wants. and dont try to tell him about turbos working better alone than with a g-fixme charger, cause he doesnt like that.
he wants to utilize both kinds of chargers for a "unique" setup, i think.
but dont tell him its easier, i think hes a glutton for headaches and technical punishment.


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## editionone_16v (Sep 2, 2006)

Here's how some germans did it (with a 16v head). http://www.cft-motortec.com/stoppelfeldgolf.php
looks complicated...


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## vw_dred (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: (editionone_16v)*

This one was done by jwatts
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2529804 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2511545


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (vw_dred)*

G60's sukazz......sorry,had to say it!


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_G60's sukazz......sorry,had to say it!

now, now. g60's are a treasur-trove of parts for mkII's.
11" brakes
02A
PG blocks for 8vT's
digi1 for the fund-impaired
nice seats front and rear
15" rims
dash swaps
but the charger i dont rate very high on m list of parts to take.


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## 16vturbo gti (Dec 24, 2006)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

i like the pic of the blowen 16v. any retard yould know it is the same as an 8v lower end so the same thing could happen 


_Modified by 16vturbo gti at 9:37 AM 8-9-2007_


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_
but dont tell him its easier, i think hes a glutton for headaches and technical punishment.









wow, you sound like an old friend of his!








aj, you never told me about this project, you know i got parts for you man... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
-j


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (16vturbo gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16vturbo gti* »_i like the pic of the blowen 16v. any retard yould know it is the same as an 8v lower end so the same thing could happen 


I have yet to pull that off on a 8v engine. The carnage of that left me with a toasted block, toasted head, toasted valves... aka, 100% loss.
And that was 16v no.2









_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_
but dont tell him its easier, i think hes a glutton for headaches and technical punishment. 

Uh, g60's, to me, have been completely problem free








Sup J- eh, its just something that im thinking of... it all depends on if i do decide to keep the corrado afterall... unless i can get the amount that i want for the diesel.
And yes, I already know about your Stg.4 charger that you want to sell to me... we discussed this already








-AJ


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

wiat, this motor in the pig of a corrado? nah man, put it in the cabby http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
ps, buy my parts.
-j


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (Muffler Bearing)*

here is my input. (this is only my opinion







)
your turbo MAY not be effective since it has to pull the air through the G60 unit. 
i think people know how i feel about the G60 unit.
for instance.
mini cooper S. 2005. 
you can get a twin charger kit for it from Webb Motorsports. it adds a turbo to the car but keeps the charger.
it puts down 250 wheel HP. whoopty doo.
oh. you can spend the same money and get a turbo kit from FIREBALLED. 
they remove the charger and put on a GT 2871 and you put down about 350-400 wheel HP. 
i think that the issue is that you cant feed the turbo enough air with the charger still in place. but im not sure. 
on a 1.8 8v engine. i would imagine that a typical t3t4 60 trim would be plenty of turbo for your twin charged application.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

It doesn't matter what everybody thinks or says
Fact is, you can't drag air thru the glader as the bearings can't handle pull thru (or push thru)
BTW what you are saying about the mini: if you build it as it should with elect valves, then the charger will not have any negative effect on the hp


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Well, what about reversing the whole process? Turbo first, then charger?
I got that great torque curve (or lack thereof, lol, it flatlevels at 165 @ 2k rpm-6k) but my HP curve is ****.

@ J- SHHHHHHH,















-AJ


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*

the problem is that you cant pull or push air through the charger. so its efficiency stops at what it can put out by itself.


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Even if the charger is pushing 15psi, and the turbo pushes/pulls 14?
Not quite following what youre saying there....


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## g60_c (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (the_mad_rabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_rabbit* »_Even if the charger is pushing 15psi, and the turbo pushes/pulls 14?
Not quite following what youre saying there....

what he is saying, is that w/the G-lader, running a series operation... just flat out wont' work out... well.. it will.. but i'll dive into that further down.
The G-lader does not have the ability to "autorotate"... meaning, if your turbo is trying to push say... 400CFM... at the same time the G-lader is trying to push 300CFM... you will be flow limited by the G-lader because of it's internal design... 
and of course, i can't remember how you were going to run these, series or parallel plumbed.. sounds like series...
NOW.. with that being said..
two pumps, running in series... assuming the flow-rates are matched, will ALWAYS (and i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule)... cause both to operate more efficiently than either one is capable of on it's own....
so, if you had say, a turbo trying to flow 400CFM @ ... 15psi, all by it's lonesome... it would be working reasonably hard to do so... AND.. if you had a g-lader trying to flow 400CFM, at 15psi... it would also be working rather hard to do so on it's own (aka, robbing more HP from your engine to turn the charger.. either turbo, OR super)... 
now, lets say you take that turbo trying to flow 400CFM... and you couple the outlet side to the inlet side of a supercharger... the supercharger is creating a relative vacuum on it's own intake side (aka, sucking air in)... if you are forcing air into a vacuum, that air will be more prone to flow in that direction (path of least resistance, would indeed be "following the crowd")... this of course, will end up with the turbo having to work less hard, to flow that 400CFM of air... in turn, the supercharger, is already being "fed" 400CFM of air, at a pressure level (and i'm sure my wording is off here, just trying to convey the concept), that is easier to deal with than the previous atmospheric pressure it is used to dealing with... so now, to create the same 400CFM @ 15psi on the supercharger outlet, less work is required by to turn the supercharger.. 
for some numbers (and these are completely through rectal extraction.. aka.. pulled them outta my arse)... all in relation to atmospheric pressure (our starting point).. atmospheric pressure -> turbo -> (400CFM @5psi) ->supercharger -> 15psi... @ 400CFM... so now your turbo is only working to raise atmospheric to 5psi (very little work)... and your supercharger is only working to raise 5psi to 15psi (fairly little work)... as opposed to individually.... atmospheric -> turbo->400CFM @ 15psi (lots of work)... and atmospheric -> supercharger -> 400CFM @ 15psi (again, lots of work)...
however, this is assuming your flowrates are well matched between your two air pumps... 
i'm going to hope that someone that *actually* knows what they're talking about chimes in here... I have lots of bits & pieces.. but never took the time to put it all together as a system in my head.... 
Also, you want to keep in mind... psi (restriction) = bad... FLOW (aka, lack of restriction) = GOOD... so try not to think in terms of psi... think in terms of CFM... the more CFM you have.. the less heat rise, and the more HP you can make.... the more PSI you have.. the less CFM you get, the pumps need to work harder, and you get more heat rise = less HP potential.
-nate
*not really sure where i was going with this......


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (g60_c)*

the problem is that a turbo and a G60 have very different boost characteristics too.
g60 = pretty linear boost. more RPM = more boost with a pretty linear increase.
most turbos = not linear. meaning they make some boost then they make lots of boost. they dont climb steadily like a G charger. and at the top they can max out boost as early as 4000rpms. 
so, you could have a turbo making boost at 15psi at 4k rpms and your G charger could only be making 10psi at that point. 
i think it will be very difficult to get it to work properly and make any more power than just the G charger or just the turbo alone.


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## g60_c (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_the problem is that a turbo and a G60 have very different boost characteristics too.
g60 = pretty linear boost. more RPM = more boost with a pretty linear increase.
most turbos = not linear. meaning they make some boost then they make lots of boost. they dont climb steadily like a G charger. and at the top they can max out boost as early as 4000rpms. 
so, you could have a turbo making boost at 15psi at 4k rpms and your G charger could only be making 10psi at that point. 
i think it will be very difficult to get it to work properly and make any more power than just the G charger or just the turbo alone.

i didn't want to complicate matters any more than they already were








-nate


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (g60_c)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60_c* »_
i didn't want to complicate matters any more than they already were








-nate

i hear that. 
i think that the fact of the matter is that using the g60 combined with anything else is not going to be economically viable.


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## the_mad_rabbit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (g60_c)*









Well, looks like I may just stay G60 afterall then....
-AJ


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