# The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta



## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

sorry i mean which KIT to get...not just turbo alone
What im looking for is a reliable turbo that will give around 300-330HP nothing too crazy where i dont have to get really crazy with the fuel mangement, just like injectors, chip, MAF, FPR etc... Also i like that EIP says the turbo they puts out full boost @ 2500 rpm ?? anyone know how that works will the ATP put out full boost that fast?
I searched the tex and read almost all the post about each of them and the VS post with alot of people say that EIP support isnt too great etc but there parts are quality and if you can get it to work right you will be really happy, on the other hand people say to go with ATP because they are cheaper and there support is good. But ive also seen mixed feelings about there support were people got good support from EIP. Also heard that EIP software for the ECU is better and if the software isnt too good it was causes the car to buck and backfire which some people got with the ATP software?
Im pretty much wondering just about the quality it self of the turbos if you can give me much info as possible. Im looking at EIP Stage I (330hp) -vs- ATP stage II (300hp), I dont know too much about turbos but im willing to learn plus i will not be putting it in my self a professional VW shop will.
If anyone with professional knowlege about these turbos and would like to tell me what parts to get to peice one together that would be better then both the kits i was looking at or modify one kit abit to be better...

EIP: http://www.eiptuning.com/eip/v....html
ATP: http://www.vwturbo.com/products/items/mk3vr6.asp



_Modified by kewlrichie at 8:27 PM 10-15-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

Long story....
The turbo will not be an ATP or such, most likely you will get a Garret with either. 
Fueling is a whole nother can of worms, ATP uses an FMU, EIP uses an FMU, EIP has better chips but they also use high fuel pressure, which if you ask me is not the answer.
I would say to get the stage 2 kit from ATP and then grab the Jefnes3 MAF, chip set, do a search and you will see it. 
Or piece it together and go stand alone. I would go stand alone.


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (mattstacks)*

IM:
Jefnes3 (9:01 PM 10-15-2003): EIP and full boost @ ~2500... this is dependent on which turbo you choose, there is no free lunch, quick spool usually causes a trade off on top end (do some research
on turbo sizing)
compared to ATP: atp chose a larger turbo so the spoll is later but there is more topend potential.
'bucking' is cause by poor part throttle tuning when using larger injectors. ATP mad this famous.

*just posting it here so other people with the same kinda questions can read it*



_Modified by kewlrichie at 9:53 PM 10-15-2003_


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

I wanna learn about it instead of just choosing a turbo kit like EIP, ATP or trying to building a custom kit, but the truth is i think i would rather choose one of those kits or maybe just modify one of them alittle bit cause its like they kinda already did the work and all the stuff comes with it.
As for the turbo spooling part...if EIP uses a smaller turbo that spools faster and there stage1 is pushing 330hp that is sort of the area i wanna be nothing higher. So you also saying that ATP stuff is bigger and more room for higher performance. see i didnt think that cuase EIP goes up to like stage6 which is pretty crazy and ive only seen stage II for ATP for the vr6. But i think it doesnt matter what the stage there selling i guess it all be upgraded to more as long as you have the right part huh ?
so what would you recommend to buy straight out or look into modifying i guess i was kinda looking towards EIP cause it seems like quality stuff and horsepower pretty much got me looking at it but then again alot of people use ATP kit ? very confusing
if anyone has any sites or were i can read all about this stuff how it works in details, bybass/blow off valves, wastegates etc..anything i would need to know to understand what turbo to choose etc...
hope thats not to confusing


_Modified by kewlrichie at 10:04 PM 10-15-2003_


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## 1QUIKVR (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

I just want to add/let you know, it is going to take a lot more work than just bolting the kit on to get 300whp. Not as easy as they make it seem. Definately not plug and play as a "kit" would have you believe.


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (1QUIKVR)*

IM:
12 SEC ABA (12:23 AM 10-16-2003): I'll tel;l you what I know, I know ATP personally, I would go with them, I've gotten screwed by EIp before, not turbo, but never the less. That is a lot of HP your shooting for, I have a fully built bottom end and push 20 psi, and barely getting over 300whp. I run atp 310 chip and injectors, I also tune at ATP so we changed the chip a little more.

12 SEC ABA (12:26 AM 10-16-2003): From what I've heard the chips are hit or miss, I have never had a problem, but others have. I say a stage II kit, double stacked head gaskets and 15 psi will give you a great feeling, but probable only around 250. As far as turbo's, Your gonna get a garret from ATp, good turbo full ball bearing. 

12 SEC ABA (12:28 AM 10-16-2003): With a smaller turbo, like gt25 or 28 you'll boost quick around 2500, 3000. but that will restrict you up top. something like a gt30 or 35 you'll spool a little later, but you top end would be killer. I started out wiht a t3/t4 stg 1 turbine, 

12 SEC ABA (12:30 AM 10-16-2003): It felt great, until I upgrade to stg 3 T3/t4, what an asome feeling around 80 90 100 ++++++ mph. so It all depends on how you want the car to react, quick spoolup not as much top end, or slower spool up great top end. 
Let me know if you have any other questions

12 SEC ABA (12:32 AM 10-16-2003): One more thing EIP bullshi** about HP, there is no way their stg 1 pushes 330 WHP, no ****e** way. I dont even have that much and I have a lot a lot of ****. They are BS.


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## purple-pill (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (mattstacks)*



mattstacks said:


> Long story....
> Fueling is a whole nother can of worms, ATP uses an FMU, EIP uses an FMU, EIP has better chips but they also use high fuel pressure, which if you ask me is not the answer.
> /QUOTE]
> both kits have FMU's which both increase fuel pressure.


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*


_Quote »_ 12 SEC ABA (12:32 AM 10-16-2003): One more thing EIP bullshi** about HP, there is no way their stg 1 pushes 330 WHP, no ****e** way. I dont even have that much and I have a lot a lot of ****. They are BS. 

kewlrichie: Your name is spot-on...!!
12 SEC ABA...well I will just say this, we have never claimed 330whp we have PROVEN 330HP (at the crank) over, and over, and over. We were making 280-290WHP in 1996 with the Stage-1 VR6 Turbo, this is conservatively 330-340 engine hp. This was way back when we went to ERT in Delaware to use their Dynojet (we didn't buy ours 'till 1998) to prove the numbers. We do not make up HP numbers, we advertise those which we prove through dyno testing. Look here to see what I just said yesterday: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2 I stated the same hp numbers almost verbatim, this is hardly “BS”. BTW, you can see some Dyno sheets there and on our web site too. 
As for you not making 330whp with "lots of ****” that proves nothing. We have built dozens and dozens of Stage-2 VR6 Turbo cars that produce 340-350+ WHP with totally stock engines, I am sorry that you do not. 
As for you stating that you had a problem with EIP in the past, or as you put it in your IM “I've gotten screwed by EIp before”, if in fact this is true, I have made the offer before and I make it again now, please contact me directly and explain the situation and I will do everything necessary to make it right.
-Rich Chiavacci / Founder – EIP Tuning, 1993
Contact: [email protected]
Website: http://www.eiptuning.com


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (yokomomma)*

eiprich:
So lets saying I buy a EIP Stage I kit for a 12v mk3 VR6 would there be any problems running it at whatever boost is normally runs at to get the around the hp your advertising ?
fueling etc.. like mentioned here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1024179 where special hosing and chips were made cause of the CEL light keep going off (i think it only had to do with ATP chips though) or anything else you can tell me about ur stuff, see i would love for you guys to install when im ready to get it but your kinda far from New York, but i do have a shop around here that i think are very capable of doing the work....
Also can you tell us about the different turbos...is says you use a
Custom Turbonetics T-4 turbocharger (optional trims available)
can you explain to me the different trims only ones that would be ok for the VR6 from reading on this thread its said that for low end stuff its better to have a small one which will spool faster and a bigger one for more top end stuff more hp but it will take longer too spool. if that Custom T-4 can put out around 330+hp and spool up @ 2000rpm that sounds pretty good to me







is that the case
So your saying stage 1 doesnt need any modification to the feul system just the chip ? no bigger injectors etc...



_Modified by kewlrichie at 5:18 AM 10-16-2003_


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*

EIP Rulez http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . I would go with the more experience company. Rich is one of the pioneer's of Vw tuning. If you look at the video's on C3cars.com, you see they have some sicks car's in the shop. Im not putting down ATP but wut where were they 10 years ago? Not only that, i would go with a guy like Rich because he has the passion like a 19 year old. ATP has crappy customer service IMO and seem like they just want your money.
Seeing that im building a VR6T, im piecing my kit together and fabricating most of the parts to cut the cost down. I figure i can cut it around $2500 for a stage2-3. The only reason why im piecing it together is that i cant afford a kit from EIP or ATP. Do your homework on the subject before you make a decision


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*

lots of great information coming to me, thanks guys keep it coming http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by kewlrichie at 3:03 PM 10-16-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (purple-pill)*


_Quote, originally posted by *purple-pill* »_


mattstacks said:


> Long story....
> Fueling is a whole nother can of worms, ATP uses an FMU, EIP uses an FMU, EIP has better chips but they also use high fuel pressure, which if you ask me is not the answer.
> /QUOTE]
> both kits have FMU's which both increase fuel pressure.






mattstacks said:


> Yes, but the ATP kit does not require mass amounts of pressure via high flow inline/intank fuel pumps.
> GTRTim is right, the proof is in the numbers and you guys have shown that that system works.
> I can say that ATP's fueling is a joke. At least the two chips I got. One for stock injectors and another for 30# injectors.
> I just do not see running excessive fuel pressures as the best way to fuel a car.
> ...


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_I also don't understand how people still insist that EIP Chip/Stock or G60 Injectors/FMU doesn't work and/or isn't reliable... I mean... 1 car could be a fluke... 2 cars... well anything is possible... or even if it only lasted for 3-4months... but we have 6 yes SIX cars that all lasted over 2 years and every single one of them puts out more hp then 95% of the people running standalone and what ever other setups you try.

Not everyone with a turbo VR6 wants to run 14:1 A/F curves and 200 psi fuel pressures Tim. The trade off is to not make as much power, which is perfectly acceptable by me.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_
Yes, but the ATP kit does not require mass amounts of pressure via high flow inline/intank fuel pumps.
GTRTim is right, the proof is in the numbers and you guys have shown that that system works.
I can say that ATP's fueling is a joke. At least the two chips I got. One for stock injectors and another for 30# injectors. 
I just do not see running excessive fuel pressures as the best way to fuel a car. 
I would rather crunch the numbers and get the right sized injectors along with the right fuel pump for the flow I need. 
But I would also rather run stand alone regardless of the numbers I see because they can always get better, as I learn more and more what I am doing with the system.
I would go with the ATP stage 2 system, 04 sized turbo and than go another route for fueling. 


that's the nature of the fmu, stock injectors will need more fuel pressure to deliver the same amount of fuel.


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (killa)*

Ok so this is what i was getting from this because of ATP software wasn't that great and was cause fuel problems and CEL to go off during higher boost Jefnes3 and Collier made there own solution with was a custom MAF and custom chip and 30lb injectors so you think its better to do it that way then using a FMU, ive only heard good things about EIP software. what would be the different running it the way EIP does it or using the Jefne3 and Collier fuel system ?


_Modified by kewlrichie at 4:51 PM 10-16-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*

Those A/F's all seem fine. 
I think it can be summed up to this. 
Some of us, including myself are interested in the science of it all. 
I want my car to be fast but I also want to have made my car fast by using the proper methods to get there. 
The numbers dont lie, niether does the fact that you guys are getting the big numbers from stand alone. 
So, give us time, time to learn our systems and make the greates power possible, by learning as much as we can. 
Thats what this about for me, learning. 
I do not learm anything from slapping a high pressure fuel pump and a chip in my car.


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_
Well why the hell does it matter??? Are we sacraficing reliability??? Are these cars running other setups running better then ours... All I read on here is people have problems with fueling... So OBVIOUSLY these setups are better....
Trade off on power... If you consider 100whp less power then more power to ya... **** I turboed my vr to go fast... If I want a soso car I woulda put a shot on my car... So you can be like your boy cabzilla and fart around with tons of setups trying to get your "reliable" air/fuel ratio and after a YEAR of dyno tuning you can make 330whp... just so the air fuel is 11:1 instead of 11.7:1 that we run at 13psi??
Still whats your point you want reliable air/fuel and at 10psi on STOCK INJECTORS air/fuel was 12:1 made 300whp.... hmm... 
Just for point of reference 16psi with G60 injectors air/fuel was 12.7:1 and at 19psi it was back to 14:1 air/fuel... 
So you can argue till your blue in the face... but we have the numbers both on the dyno and the track... 

Tim, grow up. I said absolutely nothing about the reliability of the EIP/G60/FMU setup.
I just don't want to run 200 psi fuel pressures and 14:1 A/F curves. Maybe if you actually had some personal experience with tuning various setups you might know what I'm talking about? But that isn't the case though since Brian installed everything on your car, then tuned it for you since you couldn't do it yourself.
It's funny how you flaunt a car that someone else built, then tuned, like it's your accomplishment.
As far as you not seeing 14:1 A/F's, I'm just going by what you posted. I'm a bit confused as to why you would say yourself that you are running lean when you really aren't.








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=671456 
You posted yourself that you see 14:1 A/F @ 16 psi, and that's using a 94/112 combo.
I'd be interested in seeing what kind of power your car makes in it's daily driven form on the sh*t 91 octane that we have to use. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. It might deflate your precious numbers and bring you back to the real world.
Oh, and if you want to make a big deal out of this like I know you will, feel free to IM me. We can continue this flame-fest there so we don't destroy this guys thread.


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## 1QUIKVR (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

Wow, this got out of hand pretty quickly


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (1QUIKVR)*


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (1QUIKVR)*

I wouldn't say it's out of hand- this is where the information is for people that want to learn. Read the posts between Tim and IamJack and there is useful info for certain people.
EIP software= http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*

Why didn't you IM me? Are you trying to prove something to everyone here? You must be pretty insecure if you are...
I'm not saying your setup doesn't work. It's pretty obvious that it does. Six cars running the same setup for 2 years is impressive. So are the times you guys run. But the credit does not go to you Tim. Brian is the one who deserves credit, and from me, he gets it. You spout off at the mouth too much. It gets annoying to even read.
As far as tuning goes, you don't know anything about the subject so you shouldn't even be talking about it. *You are always saying that it's so "easy to tune an FMU", but if it was so easy, why didn't you do it yourself?* Answer that question and I won't say another word to you. But that's the thing, you couldn't and didn't do it yourself. Your pathetic excuse about "not being good with your hands" isn't going to cut it either.
All I said from the start was that I don't want to run 200 psi fuel pressures and 14:1 A/F's. It's that simple. I don't think it's safe to run 200 psi and 14:1 A/F's on a daily basis, so I won't. You do think its okay so you run them so you do. Where does that leave us? Square one.
You need as much power as you can get so your 1/4 times are faster.
I don't care about drag racing at all so more power isn't my concern. I like to turn my car and your _as much power as possible_ attitude doesn't always help in that situation.
And please don't put words in my mouth about Brian and Schimmel. I never said anything about it. But while we are on the subject, do you think Brian shouldn't give credit to Schimmel? I have spoken with Brian many times and he does give credit where credit is due. You on the other hand, don't. If I was in Brian's shoes and I built your car and tuned it as well, I'd be pretty pissed at your lack of credit.
Running higher octane gas gives you access to more boost, which equals more power. You are comparing the power levels of cars that are running 91 octane gas to your car that was running a mix of 94 and 112. Do you think that's a fair comparison? I don't. 
The offer still stands to IM me if you want to further discuss this.


_Modified by I am Jack's VR6 at 11:24 AM 10-16-2003_


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_I wouldn't say it's out of hand- this is where the information is for people that want to learn. Read the posts between Tim and IamJack and there is useful info for certain people.
EIP software= http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

You are absolutely correct about our posts being off-topic. That's why I tried to keep this fued in IM's where it belongs. Apparently Tim thinks otherwise.


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_Well we don't see it as the best way to fuel the car either.... but when your on a extremely limited budget as are 95% of the rest of the community... you use what works... Trust me if I had $2000 just laying around DTA would have been in my car a long time ago... mainly so I can run more boost then I do now... 
But you have to take what is given to you and most people can't afford standalone let alone tune it... Having standalone is only have the answer... tuning it is the other..Tim

I must agree with Tim (regarding the quote above), we have never considered our Stage-2 Fuel System (chip/pump/FPR) as the "ideal" method for fuel management but we proved back in 1995/96 that it is capable of 350+hp, is easy to install, very reliable, provided good drivability, and was cost effective...so we went with it and broke every expectation for the VR6 at that time. 
In 1996 I spent hours on the phone with the powers that be at European Car (and one well known west coast tuner) who argued with me that RC Engineering (not a criticism) said our hp figures were impossible with stock injectors. They wanted to know how we did it, what is the secret...All I said was let the west coast guys figure it out for themselves and read the dyno sheets. They doubted just like many still do now. 
The reality is we cheated the system and it works like a charm! Who cares what the fuel pressure is under full boost if it does not create a problem? Remember that at idle or cruise it is as low as stock and that most of the time on a daily driver.
Last thing, the reason that our Stage-3 for VR6 Turbo is basically a TEC3 Standalone System and Larger injectors is because TEC3 (or other good standalone) is the “ideal” method for engine management. But like Tim said, not everyone has the $ for Stage-3 so Stage-1 & 2 run the EIP Chip/Pump/FPR instead. 
-Rich


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kewlrichie* »_eiprich: So lets saying I buy a EIP Stage I kit for a 12v mk3 VR6 would there be any problems running it at whatever boost is normally runs at to get the around the hp your advertising ? 


Every car is unique, hp varies from vehicle to vehicle but we know that on a good running A3 VR6 the advertised hp is very realistic. When we do the installs we usually achieve the desired hp unless there are other problems with the vehicle, which can usually be resolved. We have seen poorly designed exhausts lose mad power, problems with engine management components, clogged cats, etc. But if all is well, you should achieve the desired hp at the recommended boost level.

_Quote »_ fueling etc.. like mentioned here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1024179 where special hosing and chips were made cause of the CEL light keep going off (i think it only had to do with ATP chips though) or anything else you can tell me about ur stuff, see i would love for you guys to install when im ready to get it but your kinda far from New York, but i do have a shop around here that i think are very capable of doing the work....

See my last post which speaks directly to the engine management question, as for installation, a good competent shop should be able to do the install without too much difficulty. We have the tech line (410)876-1336 which other shops call all the time for install help or various technical inquiries and we also offer email support as well in case your shop has any question.

_Quote »_Also can you tell us about the different turbos...is says you use a Custom Turbonetics T-4 turbocharger (optional trims available)
can you explain to me the different trims only ones that would be ok for the VR6 from reading on this thread its said that for low end stuff its better to have a small one which will spool faster and a bigger one for more top end stuff more hp but it will take longer too spool. if that Custom T-4 can put out around 330+hp and spool up @ 2000rpm that sounds pretty good to me







is that the case

We do offer a couple of different trims depending on what the long term plans are for the customer. Stage-1 and Stage-2 come standard with the same Turbonetics T-04B that we have been running for years. It reaches full boost by around 3000rpm and begins spooling hard as early as 2200-2500rpm. This turbo can make up to 440whp with our Stage-3 upgrade so it has plenty of additional capability for future upgrades. We also offer a quick spool version which is basically the same turbo design with a faster spooling compressor. It will reach full boost quicker and easily makes up to 400whp so it still has plenty of headroom. This option is recommended for those who do not plan to go beyond Stage-1. 

_Quote »_So your saying stage 1 doesnt need any modification to the feul system just the chip ? no bigger injectors etc...

Stage-1 or 2 come with everything you need, including the fuel system upgrades like FPR, Pump, Chip, Etc. The Stage-1 requires about the same modifications to the fuel system as Stage-2 but comes with a Stage-1 Eprom since this kits is designed for a higher compression engine. 
-Rich


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*

wow thanks for you the info your a real help eiprich and everyone else !!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_The reality is we cheated the system and it works like a charm! Who cares what the fuel pressure is under full boost if it does not create a problem? Remember that at idle or cruise it is as low as stock and that most of the time on a daily driver.

I care what my fuel pressure is under full boost. I have been very clear about that from the start. I also don't want to see any A/F's above 12.8:1. I saw both of those when I was running the EIP chip.
The base pressure needed for a setup like Tim's is somewhere around 75 psi, if not higher. That is at idle and it is not even close to as low as stock.
Actually to be more exact, Tim's setup should yeild even higher pressures than 200 psi under full boost.
Please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't I multiply the rising rate (12) by boost (16-18 psi), plus the base pressure? If that is correct, Tim see's 267 psi fuel pressures at 16 psi and 291 psi fuel pressures at 18 psi, assuming he is running a 75 psi base pressure.
That is absolutely insane. But it works, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut about the reliablility.
On the other side of this, since you are using an FMU to "trick the system", your gas millage will be almost as good as stock (except when in boost). That's got to be nice. I only get ~250 miles to the tank with my 310's and ATP chip.
...and BTW, I have ZERO bucking with ATP's software. Never have and I never will.


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

Where did Tim's posts go?
He didn't get banned again, did he? LOL


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## 1QUIKVR (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
...and BTW, I have ZERO bucking with ATP's software. Never have and I never will.

You're lucky, I had a mad bucking problem. But then again I can't go visit ATP and say that.


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (1QUIKVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1QUIKVR* »_
You're lucky, I had a mad bucking problem. But then again I can't go visit ATP and say that.

ATP didn't solve the issue, cabzilla did. We learned a little trick from Jeff that solved every issue we ever had.


----------



## 1QUIKVR (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

BASTARDS!!!! j/k Kooter found his way around mine as well.


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_I care what my fuel pressure is under full boost. I have been very clear about that from the start. I also don't want to see any A/F's above 12.8:1. I saw both of those when I was running the EIP chip.

Our chip is not designed to work alone, it never was designed that way so unless you were running our complete Stage-2 Fuel System Upgrade, I am not surprised that you had a problem. If you were running the complete kit, something else was at issue. What is your concern with higher fuel pressure anyway?

_Quote »_The base pressure needed for a setup like Tim's is somewhere around 75 psi, if not higher. That is at idle and it is not even close to as low as stock. Actually to be more exact, Tim's setup should yeild even higher pressures than 200 psi under full boost.

I cannot tell you what he runs for pressure at idle but we never run over 60psi base and that is with the FPR signal line open to atmosphere and when you connect the signal line to vacuum the pressure drops below 50psi, just like a 4.0bar OEM fpr found on the fuel rail of Corrado VR6¡¦s. As for 200psi this is absolutely not possible with the pump supplied in our kit, in fact I do not know of an electric pump that can be put in-line that runs that kind of fuel pressure at the volume we need, and we tested many pumps. At the most our pump will maintain around 110-120psi at boost. 

_Quote »_Please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't I multiply the rising rate (12) by boost (16-18 psi), plus the base pressure? If that is correct, Tim see's 267 psi fuel pressures at 16 psi and 291 psi fuel pressures at 18 psi, assuming he is running a 75 psi base pressure.

Theory is often far from reality and this is exactly the case here, again the pump cannot support that pressure, heck we could probably run 20+ psi if we had a pump and injectors that could support that pressure under boost, in fact that would be our Stage-3 Fuel System Upgrade ƒº

_Quote »_That is absolutely insane. But it works, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut about the reliablility.

It is probably less insane to you now that you realize that we are only talking 50-60psi over stock, the OEM fuel lines and injectors have no problem with this pressure, if we were talking the 250+ psi that would be a very different story.

_Quote »_On the other side of this, since you are using an FMU to "trick the system", your gas millage will be almost as good as stock (except when in boost). That's got to be nice. I only get ~250 miles to the tank with my 310's and ATP chip.

You are correct, in fact most of our Stage-1 or 2 VR6 Turbo customers claim around 2mpg INCREASE when used on long highway cruises, crazy but true unless of course you constantly run the car hard as it takes lots of fuel to make good hp.
-Rich


----------



## VRQUICK (Sep 20, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
ATP didn't solve the issue, cabzilla did. We learned a little trick from Jeff that solved every issue we ever had.

And what was that secret? Not blowing off into the atmosphere?


----------



## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

Richie -
You need to ask yourself a very important question.
How much power are you going to be happy with? Be careful though, that is a difficult one to answer. Once you taste boost, you just want more and more of it. It really is a dissease.
If you are planning on running low boost (under 12 psi - around 300 whp), the choice is going to be tough between EIP/ATP/Jeff's chip. All have their strong/weak points.
With the EIP chip, you will have better gas millage than the ATP/Jeff's chip because of the way the FMU/stock injectors combo works. On the other hand, you will need to run higher fuel pressures along with an inline fuel pump with the EIP setup, and the in-lines can get loud and obnoxious. The higher fuel pressures are also something you need to either accept or decline. It really is a personal decision. The ATP/Jeff's chip is plug-and-play. Assuming that everything else in your car is working like it should (in-tank pump, new fuel filter, etc), all you have to do is put in the chip and you're set for fueling. The EIP chip makes more power than the ATP/Jeff's chip, but that's because it doesn't run as rich. Being rich is safer, leaning things out makes more power. There is always a comprimise.
If I were you, I would seriously consider all setups. In the end it's all about what YOU want from your car.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*

Rich -
I ran the exact same setup the GTR guys run, only at MUCH less boost. I got all the info straight from the source. I even spoke with you about why I might be going so lean. Nobody could help me find the issue. I STILL don't know why my car was running so lean, but it was. I tried for months to figure out what was going on but I couldn't, so I gave up and went on to another setup.
I don't want my posts to be misunderstood. If you can get the EIP setup to work on your car, it's great. You almost get the best of both worlds. Great power and great fuel ecconomy. The only trade-off is the fuel pressue and the buzzing of the in-line pump. But that's a personal choice. Honestly, if I could have gotten the EIP/FMU combo to work on my car, I would probably be running it as we speak. But things didn't happen that way so I'm not.
As for the fuel pressure formula, I really wasn't sure if it was correct. That's why I asked if I was wrong for someone to correct me. I appreciate you clearing it up. Again, I didn't try to put down EIP in any way.
So, by your post I'm assuming that running the crazy 18 psi on the EIP/FMU combo is basically maxing out the in-line? Maybe they are running dual in-lines. I know when Brian was still running that setup, he had dual Bosch pumps.


_Modified by I am Jack's VR6 at 4:07 PM 10-16-2003_


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

There's no a problem, I didn't think you bashed us at all.
I have enjoyed this discussion and if I was able to straighten out a misnomer or two, even better.
It is too bad you didn’t get your old set up to work properly but you seem pleased with your current modification, if your happy that all that matters. 
As for our setup, with our fuel system, we have a slightly lean area in the lower to mid range intentionally to create more heat which induces the turbo to spool faster. I really shouldn’t even be talking about this! Then we move into a rich condition which is usually around 11:1 AFR. This is running between 12-15psi boost. I know some guys run 17-18psi with our Stage-2 Turbo System but we do not consider this safe because we know that AFR goes too high for safety. 
We run duel feed lines on many cars but usually once we convert them to TEC3, it helps to balance pressure on longer fuel rails like that of a VR6. 
-Rich


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_As for our setup, with our fuel system, we have a slightly lean area in the lower to mid range intentionally to create more heat which induces the turbo to spool faster. I really shouldn’t even be talking about this! Then we move into a rich condition which is usually around 11:1 AFR. This is running between 12-15psi boost. I know some guys run 17-18psi with our Stage-2 Turbo System but we do not consider this safe because we know that AFR goes too high for safety.


The secret is out!







I believe ATP does the same thing for the same reason. Their lean area is a little earlier though.
I always figured that your lean area was due to the FMU starting to do it's job. That actually changes my outlook about the AFR, especially if you designed it to work that way.


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_Rich -
I ran the exact same setup the GTR guys run, only at MUCH less boost. I got all the info straight from the source. I even spoke with you about why I might be going so lean. Nobody could help me find the issue. I STILL don't know why my car was running so lean, but it was. I tried for months to figure out what was going on but I couldn't, so I gave up and went on to another setup.
I don't want my posts to be misunderstood. If you can get the EIP setup to work on your car, it's great. You almost get the best of both worlds. Great power and great fuel ecconomy. The only trade-off is the fuel pressue and the buzzing of the in-line pump. But that's a personal choice. Honestly, if I could have gotten the EIP/FMU combo to work on my car, I would probably be running it as we speak. But things didn't happen that way so I'm not.
As for the fuel pressure formula, I really wasn't sure if it was correct. That's why I asked if I was wrong for someone to correct me. I appreciate you clearing it up. Again, I didn't try to put down EIP in any way.
So, by your post I'm assuming that running the crazy 18 psi on the EIP/FMU combo is basically maxing out the in-line? Maybe they are running dual in-lines. I know when Brian was still running that setup, he had dual Bosch pumps.

_Modified by I am Jack's VR6 at 4:07 PM 10-16-2003_

Fuel Pressure at 16psi+ is greater then 160psi... this I know because when I was having an issue with my stock intank pump I was watching fuel pressure... in car underboost and it would peg the gauge... 
I think your confused about Brian running 2 inline pumps, it's was Steve who had 2 inline pumps because his intank was the one that came with his 8v.
I currently am running a walbro 255hp intake in addition to the bosch inline, the reason I changed the intake pump is my stock pump took a crap... replace it with a stock one from a 93passat and after 2 days that also took a crap. 
We have ran 20-21psi with the G60 injectors on C16... not for extended time with no problems... but the amount of timing being pulled canceled out and hp gains from increased boost
Running 18psi on stock injectors = short injector life span... we had 3 cars each go through a set after bout 1 year...


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*

If you run and FMU then your fuel pressure under boost will depend on what ratio (fuel pressure/psi of boost) the fmu is set for, so saying that you have 160psi of fuel pressure at such and such boost is pretty much meaningless.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
The ATP/Jeff's chip is plug-and-play. Assuming that everything else in your car is working like it should (in-tank pump, new fuel filter, etc), all you have to do is put in the chip and you're set for fueling. The EIP chip makes more power than the ATP/Jeff's chip, but that's because it doesn't run as rich. Being rich is safer, leaning things out makes more power. 
There is always a comprimise.


The last line says it all.... there is always a compromise. I wrote my chip
with the 'lowest common denomonator' in mind. That is: Pump gas, NO IC
and timing such that the knock sensor NEVER pulls timing. (unless there's a problem). Its basically as 'safe' as a stock chip is on an NA motor, and follows
a similar power deliver, add 8 psi of boost get + ~50% power.
It may not be for everyone, but it agrees with my personal 
conservative tuning philosophies. 
Can I afford to blow up my friend's motor? nope
I'm just like the guys here searching for a tuning solution, only I got a 
little further than most. A little engineering school did hurt either.









Jeffrey Atwood



_Modified by Jefnes3 at 1:36 AM 10-17-2003_


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_Please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't I multiply the rising rate (12) by boost (16-18 psi), plus the base pressure? If that is correct, Tim see's 267 psi fuel pressures at 16 psi and 291 psi fuel pressures at 18 psi, assuming he is running a 75 psi base pressure.


I don't think his Bosch pump nor his lines can support that kind of pressure. The reason he's using a RRFPR (Cartech, BEGI, EIP), is because of adjustibility. He sets his base pressure at 75psi but the lowers the gain needle to like 6:1 (171psi) or 4:1 (139psi) and thats at 16psi of boost. 
Take a look here for the pump rates
http://www.supras.nl/modsFuelPump.htm


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_
I don't think his Bosch pump nor his lines can support that kind of pressure. The reason he's using a RRFPR (Cartech, BEGI, EIP), is because of adjustibility. He sets his base pressure at 75psi but the lowers the gain needle to like 6:1 (171psi) or 4:1 (139psi) and thats at 16psi of boost. 
Take a look here for the pump rates
http://www.supras.nl/modsFuelPump.htm


I can _almost_ guarantee that everyone in GTR has that rate/gain screw all the way in to 12:1.
I think they are asking for the FMU to try to supply those pressures, but just maxing out pretty much everything in the fuel system in the process.
Tim was saying himself that he peggs a 160 psi gauge under full boost.


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## dubworld2.0t (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

WOW, nobody argueing and yelling and calling people out! amazing! i just wanted to say this is an awesome thread. and probably the most calmest and most inteligent ones i have read lately actually ever! 
keep it up guys! im actually learning something! wooohoo!!! 
and to rich @eip i just wanted to say great job!! thanks for comming to vortex and explaining everything. i had one of your old techs ronnie install my turbo on my mk4 2.0 at a different shop. i have been to your shop one time and had a bad experience there talking to one of the guys behind the counter. (sorry dont remember his name) it was about 2 years ago. but, im glad to see you making an effort to change things. 
sorry i dont want to change the subject. just wanted to say keep it up guys great thread!
thanks
anthony


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (dubworld2.0t)*

so guys im really liking the EIP method with the stock injectors/fmu if it works out ok but your saying you going to need a new inline fuel pump that is really noisey, making a buzzing now is there anyway around that my friend has a loud one on hes mustang and its kinda anonying ?
oh and jefnes3: your saying the software wasnt made with a Intercooler in mind so you have one on the chip would have to be modified?


_Modified by kewlrichie at 5:07 PM 10-17-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

You can build a box around the pump, to get rid of some of the noise
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=488999
Here is what marty id with his walbro inline.
I don't mind the noise, I can actually hear the fuel run through the pump, I would know if that pump was running dry or if something was amiss. 
If I hear the pump pushing fuel, then I know I have pressure.
But maybe i am just rationalizing.


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
I can _almost_ guarantee that everyone in GTR has that rate/gain screw all the way in to 12:1.
I think they are asking for the FMU to try to supply those pressures, but just maxing out pretty much everything in the fuel system in the process.
Tim was saying himself that he peggs a 160 psi gauge under full boost.

come on man...now if they had it turned up all the way, they'd be TOO rich and not make the power they've made. Also, thats how the Cartech comes stock, so that would mean that they did not tune at all, just set their base pressure.
Remeber...LEAN=MORE POWER(dangerous) RICH=LESS POWER(safer; but still dangerous)
*I* can almost guarantee that the GTR crew sat on the dyno and tuned the FMU under load. (The correct way)


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (mattstacks)*

great idea so is that the pump thats used with the EIP setup does anyone know ?
Well for hearing if the pump is on or not isnt that what the gauge is for if you lose peasure then i guess the pump stopped working huh ?








Also when you guys and other say FMU are you meaning....FPR, CHIP, PUMP anything that tweaks the fuel etc.. ? see i thought those little computers that have screens where FMU fuel mangement Units ?










_Modified by kewlrichie at 7:45 PM 10-17-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

If I had a fuel pressure gage, then yes if you loose pressure at the gage your pump failed, but I don't have one in car, nor do i have room for one. I have one on my fuel rail for base pressure readings and have run the car down the road with the hood off to check pressure under boost.
I am not saying that hearing it is an end all solution but it doesn't bother me for that reason. 
I build huge water systems at work, with high pressure vessels, alot of the trouble shooting I do is from hearing the pumps, on an average system I have 6 to 10 large water pumps. If one fails or does not have the base pressure it needs then I can hear it from the other room. i can hear the system now as I type and can tell all is reasonable from the sound of the pumps.
I should have been more specific, the sound lets me know that my intank is feeding the inline enough pressure for it not to run dry. 
I believe the EIP pump is a CIS E bosh inline pump. Not a walbro. 
An FMU uses intake pressure to force more fuel into the fuel rail, so when boost rises so does the pressure in the fuel line coming from the FMU. Assuming you can flow enough fuel. The fpr(Fuel pressure regulator) uses back pressure or restricts the flow in the rail to keep constant pressure at the injectors. 
The two combined allow more fuel to pass through the injector per pulse, therefore tricking the car into delivering more fuel.
I would think that it took a lot of playing around to get the chip right. Since pressure is the only reference. 
I do not know how they get around the MAF signal to high, but I would assume they use a bigger MAF housing,.



_Modified by mattstacks at 3:09 PM 10-17-2003_


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_
come on man...now if they had it turned up all the way, they'd be TOO rich and not make the power they've made. Also, thats how the Cartech comes stock, so that would mean that they did not tune at all, just set their base pressure.
Remeber...LEAN=MORE POWER(dangerous) RICH=LESS POWER(safer; but still dangerous)
*I* can almost guarantee that the GTR crew sat on the dyno and tuned the FMU under load. (The correct way)

Nope... none of us even saw the dyno till almost a year after we had our kits...
Let's see Brian never dynoed his car with air/fuel ratio till he got standalone... he made 2 pulls at EIP just for ****s and giggles.... 
I dynoed after having the my car running for about 8months also just for ****s and giggles... 
Steve finally dynoed after 2 years just a couple months ago... He is the only one to dyno with G60 injectors....
Bill's car has never seen a dyno... he was strapped to the dyno at the NHRA event 2 weeks ago but it started to rain
Phil's car never saw a dyno and that was our first 12second car
We all run 12:1 ratio on the fmu and base pressure varies between 65-75psi 
Remeber it's kinda hard to run rich with injectors that techincally aren't supposed to flow enough fuel for 250whp let alone 430whp
Well Brian and Phil the first 2 turbo cars did some street/track i guess you could call it tuning... but neither car ever had an wide band o2 or egt gauge.I know they tryed different base pressures but that was about it... 1/4 mile said it all... 
Tim


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*

So Tim, you're saying all your FMU tuning was just setting base pressures and NOT touching the check needle at all? Well if that's the case, its safe to say that EIP has a miraculous chip at setting the A/F at 12.7:1 with no tuning!!!
At 10psi I ran EXTREMLY rich (10:1) with my stock injectors and my Cartech set to 12:1


_Modified by LoGIc at 4:00 PM 10-17-2003_


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (mattstacks)*

Yes, we use a Bosch pump with our kit. It comes complete with lines, adapters, a wiring harness and relay and fuse/holder for safety. It also comes with an isolation bracket and sleeve to minimize noise. It works using the OEM pump acting as a feeder pump to our inline unit. This allows the OEM pump to work very little so it is under no stress. Rarely have we ever seen one fail. Look here (bottom of page): http://www.eiptuning.com/eip/fuelpumps.html or here: http://www.eiptuning.com/eip/s....html 
We particularly do not like the Walbro pumps as the inline unit but perhaps they work ok as a feeder pump. We found that the OEM pump flow excellent volume at near zero pressure and thus work great as a feeder. We then use the ultra reliable Bosch rotary vein pump which can flow both good volume and very high pressure. Perhaps if you crimp the return line at idle you may see over 120psi with this setup but at full boost and thus full duty cycle and demand from the injectors, we usually see between 110-120psi and yes we run our billet FPR near full rate of rise, almost never less than 10:1 on VR6 Turbo. When you adjust the screw your really only adjusting how quickly you reach peak fuel pressure because at 12+psi and a minimum of 10:1 rate of rise, you will quickly see the maximum that the fuel system can supply. 
-Rich


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_When you adjust the screw your really only adjusting how quickly you reach peak fuel pressure because at 12+psi and a minimum of 10:1 rate of rise, you will quickly see the maximum that the fuel system can supply. 

Correct me if I'm wrong Rich, but I though that the top screw only sets the base pressure and the needle valve sets the rising rate (e.g 10:1,11:1,12:1)? I got my info from the source of my FMU here:
http://www.bellengineering.net/fmu2020instruc.html
_The second adjustment, the needle valve, controls the rate of gain of fuel pressure versus boost pressure. The lowest rate of gain is with the needle valve fully open, the highest, fully closed. Clockwise closes the needle valve._
Unless, your FMU is compleatly different from Cartech/BEGI


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*

wow thanks for the info rich, im so glad i started this thread ive learnt soo much from you and everyone else.
Can you hear the pump when its turned on from inside is it that noticable, did you see what marty did to hes pump where he made that sound proof box you think thats a good idea if its too loud for me? http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=488999
is this how the pump works with the EIP kit ?
stock intank-pump > new Bosch inline-pump > stock fuel filter > stock injectors
is that right

So i was thinking i live in NY im about roughly 3 hours away from you guys and you guys to install your stuff right ? when im ready to go turbo and ii buy the kit from you i was thinking off driving down there and letting you guys install since its your stuff. I was wondering what you guys would charge for the install ?


_Modified by kewlrichie at 9:39 PM 10-17-2003_


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_So Tim, you're saying all your FMU tuning was just setting base pressures and NOT touching the check needle at all? Well if that's the case, its safe to say that EIP has a miraculous chip at setting the A/F at 12.7:1 with no tuning!!!
At 10psi I ran EXTREMLY rich (10:1) with my stock injectors and my Cartech set to 12:1

_Modified by LoGIc at 4:00 PM 10-17-2003_

Well only thing I can say is that Mk4 is different because I don't really know anyone with a Mk4 that runs strong whether it's the DBW or what .... not sure... Also are the stock mk4 injectors same as stock mk3... cause with G60 injectors at low boost yes it runs very rich... so if mk4 injectors are slightly bigger I can see that as a problem...
But yes the EIP chip is definately a peice of work
Tim


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_Correct me if I'm wrong Rich, but I though that the top screw only sets the base pressure and the needle valve sets the rising rate (e.g 10:1,11:1,12:1)? _The second adjustment, the needle valve, controls the rate of gain of fuel pressure versus boost pressure. The lowest rate of gain is with the needle valve fully open, the highest, fully closed. Clockwise closes the needle valve._Unless, your FMU is compleatly different from Cartech/BEGI

You are correct, the top screw is base pressure only and the valve on the side is for rate of rise adjustment. When I was refering to adjsuting the screw I meant the bleed off valve...sorry if it was confusing. 
-Rich


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kewlrichie* »_wow thanks for the info rich, im so glad i started this thread ive learnt soo much from you and everyone else. Can you hear the pump when its turned on from inside is it that noticable, did you see what marty did to hes pump where he made that sound proof box you think thats a good idea if its too loud for me? http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=488999
is this how the pump works with the EIP kit ?
stock intank-pump > new Bosch inline-pump > stock fuel filter > stock injectors
is that right
So i was thinking i live in NY im about roughly 3 hours away from you guys and you guys to install your stuff right ? when im ready to go turbo and ii buy the kit from you i was thinking off driving down there and letting you guys install since its your stuff. I was wondering what you guys would charge for the install ?
_Modified by kewlrichie at 9:39 PM 10-17-2003_

With our bracket and sleeve you can barely hear the pump from inside the car, it's a bit louder outside. I do not think the elaborate box is necessary but it looks neat.
Yes the order of flow is correct.
Send me an email and I will work with you on price, there are VWVortex member discounts and some other deals we will offer you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Rich


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## corradokyd (Jun 4, 1999)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

if eip uses the same stlye manifold as eastside then id go with eip. atp kit is ok but i just dont care for the manifold. or just got with eastsides kit. its prob the only one id use.


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## garyw (Oct 17, 1999)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (corradokyd)*

Personally I think the EIP fuel management is quite good if you don't plan on doing major power to your car. Just install and go since you get the chip, pump, fmu, so just a fine adjustment to the fmu.
I didn't like the idea of high fuel pressure, so I went with larger injectors in my car.
Anyone know what should be the ideal a/f ratio throughout the curve running a max of 9psi? when dynoing on 4th gear, boost comes at around 2200rpm and peak boost is at 3000rpm.
Gary


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (garyw)*

this thread is by far the best one I ever started







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by kewlrichie at 1:08 PM 10-20-2003_


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## VRBTCHCAR (May 10, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kewlrichie* »_this thread in by far the best one I ever started







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Damn good thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

gotta keep this baby up top http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (garyw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *garyw* »_
Anyone know what should be the ideal a/f ratio throughout the curve running a max of 9psi? when dynoing on 4th gear, boost comes at around 2200rpm and peak boost is at 3000rpm.
Gary

This is just how I tune stuff:
Below ~5psi I like to see 12.6-12.8 all the time, but upto ~13.0 is fine
Above ~5-7 psi I like to see 12.0-12.2 all the time, but up to ~12.7 is fine.
Over ~10 psi I like to see 11.8-12.0 all the time, but up to ~12.3 is fine.
Proper tuning should yield a FLAT a/f curve.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## JettaGLXdriver (Oct 3, 2002)

whats the deal with the "Eastsides kit"?
Never heard of it. Link please?
I found their site but it says down till further notice? Go out of business?
What about that guy in florida selling turbo kits on ebay?


_Modified by JettaGLXdriver at 11:18 PM 11-3-2003_


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## 79909 (Dec 30, 2002)

bringing it back up


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (JettaGLXdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaGLXdriver* »_whats the deal with the "Eastsides kit"?
Never heard of it. Link please?
I found their site but it says down till further notice? Go out of business?
What about that guy in florida selling turbo kits on ebay?

_Modified by JettaGLXdriver at 11:18 PM 11-3-2003_

man i wont say anything about the comnaies you speak of..... just research first......
eastside di ddo a 1.*t mk4 swap on a buddy's car who had SDS and they in turn took the SDS off of the car
BTW did o mention instead of feeding the hall sensor wire back thru the firewall they cut it, costed me 2 hours to sauter and find pin connections, and managed to toss my crank magnets that were MINE, just research, and use the search button, ill let you make the call


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Took the SDS off?


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*

There are so many more options available now for turboing a VR6 and getting away from the high fuel pressure. All I can remember about running a FMU is the fuel leaks and broken hoses leaving me stranded on the highway and having to double up on the clamps. At first it was a nightmare cause I had no help but now if I needed to do it, it would be a sinch. Knowing what I know now youll never see one on any of my cars or my friend cars. As for Tim as soon as he gets his act together we will be taking the FMU out of his car too.
Brian


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Took the SDS off? 

nah, it ran great for a week, took the first pass down the track and cooked the clutch banging into 2nd, 
fitty is right... all you need is amanifold, turbo an dpping... basically the fueling and tuning is what differentiates kit from kit in my opinion


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

So my question for my set up to the folks in the know. How do I raise my air/fuel down low in the 2000-4800 rpm range as mine is running way to rich. I see air fuel ratios from 10-11.5 through that rpm range. 
It is an AMS kit Accel 30lb injecters 11PSI @6900rpm with a 4 bar FPR. I tried a 3 bar for a little while but at full boost it would go lean. In some ways it felt punchy and ran better but I could tell the chip did not like it up top so I put the 4 bar back in. 
I have wondered about piggy back units as well as a 3 bar with an added neuspeed fpr for the high end fuel.? I have had ATP dial out fuel down low and it is still to rich it seems. Should I just try one more time and have a little more removed.?
Just seems like I am missing out on some low end grunt running so rich.


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (50CENT)*

Are you talking about DTA or other options?
How far have you and Schimmel gone with DTA so far? I'm very curious about what you had to go through to get everything running well. How is the "drivability" of your car?
Basically, how easy is DTA to tune to exactly what you want?


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_There are so many more options available now for turboing a VR6 and getting away from the high fuel pressure...

We have produced hundreds of turbo cars running FMU's and we have experienced and heard of so few problems that it is simply a very proven and reliable and cost effective way to make power, period. The few problems that we did experience were usually related to the unreliability of the old cast FMU?s that we used to sell. That issue has been fully resolved with the production of our very reliable Billet unit that we now manufacture. 
Sure other options are available, in fact stand alone is necessary (like TEC3) once you reach a certain point, but for the street and for 300-350whp on a daily driver few need nor want to spend the money to go stand alone.
-Rich


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*

Rich, lemme ask you this, using your 300-350whp/FMU/Stock injectors setup, what would you say the lifespan of a WELL maintained VR6T? Concidering the fact that the fuel pressure will be running high in boost, which for most daily drivers is once or twice a day.


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## 2ATMsLater (Oct 30, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*

a Corrado here is going on 3 years running between 10-12psi and 120k on the clock
that seems pretty reliable to me


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_Rich, lemme ask you this, using your 300-350whp/FMU/Stock injectors setup, what would you say the lifespan of a WELL maintained VR6T? Concidering the fact that the fuel pressure will be running high in boost, which for most daily drivers is once or twice a day.

If you drive your car hard you'll be going through tranny's quicker then motors


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_If you drive your car hard you'll be going through tranny's quicker then motors

So, having the fuel presure that high won't have a lasting effect on injectors or fuel lines (providing that it's clamped on tight)? In other words, injectors can last three years at 10-12psi of boost and 65-100+psi fuel pressure?


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_
So, having the fuel presure that high won't have a lasting effect on injectors or fuel lines (providing that it's clamped on tight)? In other words, injectors can last three years at 10-12psi of boost and 65-100+psi fuel pressure?

3 years at 10-12psi yea... 18psi nah... haha , 1 year @ 18psi stock injectors took a dump, My stock fuel pump took a dump after a year... but none of the other cars had a problem with the stock fuel pump but i also have the most miles on my car in a whole. but again this is all with boost in excess of 15psi..
10-12psi you will have more tranny issues then fuel related


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## Migvr6NYC (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (GTRTim)*

my friends jetta vr6 has been turbo going on 4 1/2 years and the car been running on stock block running from 10-15psi . on to4e/t3. car has dyno at 340 to wheels.running on fmu and there car only problems have been the tranny and clutch related. tranny issues being second gear syncros. and burning out clutches.
the car has a/c full interior fastest he ever ran in 1/4 was 12.4 
we made custom pipeing and turbo manifoild and 3 inch exhaust.


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_Rich, lemme ask you this, using your 300-350whp/FMU/Stock injectors setup, what would you say the lifespan of a WELL maintained VR6T? Concidering the fact that the fuel pressure will be running high in boost, which for most daily drivers is once or twice a day.

We have many cars that we did in 1996/7 still on the road in Stage2 configuration. We know of several with over 140k and going strong. We just got in a Corrado that has 125k (we did the kit @ 45k) and it still runs well, we replaced the sticking cast FMU wih our Billet unit but that was it besides normal stuff (brakes etc.)
-Rich


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*

So I guess the answer to my question is the *STOCK* injectors WILL handle this fuel pressure for this length of time?


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_So I guess the answer to my question is the *STOCK* injectors WILL handle this fuel pressure for this length of time?

The answer is absolutely, yes. The MK4 stock (weber type) injectors also can handle the higher fuel pressures and can flow enough fuel to support 325-350whp just like the MK3 Bosch injectors. This is based on our experiences with the MK4 VR6 Turbo's that we have had on the road since late '99 / early 2000 and MK3's running since 1996.
-Rich


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (kewlrichie)*

if you look at what eip gives you in the kit , they give you so much more and yes they have been around longer , in todays world you will always have pros and cons all people are diffrent. when i get home from iraq i will stay with eip in my 92 vR6 corrado http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and i forgot to say they been putting out some bad a$$ cars


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## crazykidbig58 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (eiprich)*

I'm not reading this whole thread, so if someone has already said it, sorry for the rerun. Kinetic's kit is great. Stg I is about 230 whp (245 with 3" exhaust w/o cat). Stg II is about 300 whp and Stg III is about 330 whp. I have had my Stg I kit installed for about 5k miles now and I am extremely satisfied with it. They are also great guys to deal with, and for the price, you can't go wrong! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (crazykidbig58)*

I have a pretty good understanding of how a fuel injector operates. 
They basically have a precision orifice and they are on/off devices and the amount of fuel is dictated basically by duty cycle of the injector. The longer it is open the more fuel, Quite simple
I am also aware that you can force more fuel thru a given size orifice with substantially more fuel pressure.
People don't want to use huge injectors because of there lack of control at low duty cycles, they often let out more fuel than is really required, there just too coarse.
My question is why don't the people who need this much fuel and drivability use 12 injectors? Obviously this requires two fuel rails and bosses welded into the lower intake manifold, i was thinking of putting them nearly horizontal, on the front of the lower intake mani with a straight shot into the intake ports of the head.
You could rig up some sort of system when the primary stock injectors reach 100 percent duty cycle, the system applies a 50% duty cycle to both sets of injectors and continues to increase the duty cycle of all 12 on from there. 
There would need to be some sort of electronic box that accepted the square wave output that would normally go to the injector. the box would have two outputs per cylinder, one for each injector. The box sees that the square wave has gone to dc, and then outputs two square waves of a 50% duty cycle two both injectors. 
This would totally eliminate the need for high fuel pressures, and complicated multi pump systems.
Opinions from respected VR-t tuners and owners are much appreciated, preferably only from people who truly understand what i have just thrown out there. Home hackers are welcome to absorb only. Thanks.


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## .:VRT:. (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (Vr6Fidelity)*


_Quote »_My question is why don't the people who need this much fuel and drivability use 12 injectors?

Because it's a PITA and expensive (6 added injectors = $$$$) and there's other ways of doing it that are easier, cheaper, and already proven to work? Dunno just throwing it out there.

_Modified by .:VRT:. at 3:27 PM 8-19-2005_
Sorry had to say something on this....

_Quote »_Opinions from respected VR-t tuners and owners are much appreciated, preferably only from people who truly understand what i have just thrown out there. Home hackers are welcome to absorb only. Thanks.








This is a public forum and anyone can respond and get involved in the coversation if they so choose. Don't be that way "Mr. Engineer".

_Modified by .:VRT:. at 3:30 PM 8-19-2005_ 


_Modified by .:VRT:. at 3:31 PM 8-19-2005_


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## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (.:VRT:.)*

Alright show me your 60/40 type responses welsome too then...
And look if your jealous of engineers go to school don't take it out on me!
And if you had read _and_ comprehended you would note i specifically stated stock injectors, so again you would only need to buy six.
Perhaps thats what i meant by my statement at the end? 
What exactally is cheap about a VR-t anyway? Its all pricy to me.


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## .:VRT:. (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (Vr6Fidelity)*

Hehe, I noted 6 ADDED injectors, and where did this jealousy thing come from? I don't want to be an engineer and I'm certainly not jealous of any. I made that statement because engineers tend to come off as being a bit pompous and your statement about no one else being able to post, as well as understand what you had wrote seemed that way to me. Not trying to start an argument here, just an observation.


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## crazykidbig58 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: The All Famous EIP Turbo or ATP Turbo for 12v VR6 MK3 Jetta (.:VRT:.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.:VRT:.* »_Hehe, I noted 6 ADDED injectors, and where did this jealousy thing come from? I don't want to be an engineer and I'm certainly not jealous of any. I made that statement because engineers tend to come off as being a bit pompous and your statement about no one else being able to post, as well as understand what you had wrote seemed that way to me. Not trying to start an argument here, just an observation.

Good observation if you ask me. Who cares if the guy is an engineer. I agree that he might have a better understanding on something like this, but if he is an engineer why would he even post what he did? Maybe to make himself look good? If not, and he just wanted to share his opinion with all of us, then don't say who can and who shouldn't respond.


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