# Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not?



## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

RedBox pads completely toasted on the way home last night, only 1 hard brake to avoid crash, other braking was normal street driving ~40mph.
Does this seem like a fluke? Bad set of rears?!? The fronts were fine. Do I dare risk putting another set of these pads on my GTI??? TPM rotors.
Thanks for any advice!
http://photobucket.com/albums/...xWoes/
Update:
http://photobucket.com/albums/MintexNext/









_Modified by Questor at 8:58 PM 8-4-2004_


_Modified by Questor at 10:38 AM 8-17-2004_


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## EVLG35 (Jun 30, 2000)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

I've been running mine for 2 years with a charger on TT brake setup...so with 9PSI, I stop quick and often and I have them on at all 4 corners...wear has been even and normal.
I say a fluke...


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## RavinJetta (Mar 31, 2002)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

Definitely not normal. What type of rotors are you using?


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (RavinJetta)*

The TPM rotors from AP Tuning that were shown on here a short while ago. All new pads/rotors front and back at the same time. TPM and Mintex at all 4 corners.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1372364



_Modified by Questor at 11:08 PM 8-4-2004_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

Wow! That amount of brake dust is definitely not normal. I don't think I got that much dust in over a year of use of OEM pads! Most likely the pads were defective from the factory.
I would forward those pictures to your dealer and request your money back or replacement. I would get them to replace the fronts while you're at it just to be safe. Mintex is an ok street pad for the price I guess - it is cheaper than OEM and you do get what you pay for so keep that in mind.
I would see if your dealer will allow you to credit the cost of the defective mintex pads against a more expensive, quality pad like Hawk HPS. You will get much better results that way.


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## samcat67 (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

This is really scary. I just installed a set of Mintex all the way around.
I don't have them broken in yet, but based on your pics, I may not be keeping them on the car.
Thanks for posting the pics. At least I've been warned.


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

Here's a link to the update pics:
Be sure to see the driveway dust trails on the second page...
http://photobucket.com/albums/...xNext/
I reset the pistons in the calipers and tested them both hydraulically and manually via the e-brake mechanism, the calipers seem to be operating properly.
At this point I'm going to try to get a refund on the Mintex pads and apply the cost to a set of Pagid Blues, Hawk HPS, or Ferodo DS2500's - Any recommendations? This GTI is mostly street use with occasional performance driving.
Thanks!


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## horsty69 (Jun 21, 2003)

I understand its a major thing but Im not sure why people are freaking out...just because one set of mintex pads went bad...I mean every product even they best can have a factory defect. Ive used mintex many times its not a bad pad at all...many many many people use them and how often do you see something like this..you dont.


_Modified by horsty69 at 12:43 PM 8-5-2004_


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## dmkozak (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: (horsty69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *horsty69* »_I understand its a major thing but Im not sure why people are freaking out...just because one set of mintex pads went bad...I mean every product even they best can have a factory defect. Ive used mintex many times its not a bad pad at all...many many many people use them and how often do you see something like this..you dont.

_Modified by horsty69 at 12:43 PM 8-5-2004_


I think you've missed the point. (In fact, I think you've totally missed the point.) "How often do you see something like this.. you don't." Well, actually, you do. Just look above in this thread. We know for a fact it happened once. If I understand you correctly, brakes are not zero defect items and one bad set of brake pads is acceptable.
Well, if it were your car, and if the one set of bad pads prevented your car from stopping, and if you crashed into something because your one set of bad brake pads did not stop your car, and if you were seriously injured, would you still feel the same way?
In fact, lives are very much dependent on brake pads. As such, brake pads are supposed to be zero defect items. That Mintex released even one set of brake pads where the pad material did not properly bond to the backing plate, is a scary thought. Scary enough that I'll probably never use Mintex as a street replacement pad.
I'm fortunate that I'm able to wait until PBR/Axiss/Repco makes their Ultimate Ceramic pads available fr and rr for Mk. IV's.


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## Geordie (Jun 22, 2001)

*Re: (dmkozak)*

I think the manufacturers of the pads and disks need to take a look at this. Have you checked for unusual disc wear or is it purely the pads? Do you have the same discs on the front.
I'm with the 'this is a catastrophe' crowd here. If this had been the fronts on a long mountain descent we could be reading the corroners report instead.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (dmkozak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dmkozak* »_

I think you've missed the point. (In fact, I think you've totally missed the point.) "How often do you see something like this.. you don't." Well, actually, you do. Just look above in this thread. We know for a fact it happened once. If I understand you correctly, brakes are not zero defect items and one bad set of brake pads is acceptable.


I think your missing HIS point... HE understands that it happened and was potentially dangersous.. he was talking to all of the people saying OH MY GOD, I'm takingmy mintex pads off.I guarntee you that every other pad manufacture had had a similar failure or worse even.. so why should you switch to them.. failures happen, it sucks and they can be horrible... this wa lucky that nothing bad happened... But freaking out and never buying mintex pads again or taking off a brand new set of mintex pads becuase one person had a failure doesnt' make anything better.. in fact it just inreases the potential for another company to have a failure.


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## ECS Tuning-Tom (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

Go to who you bought the pads from. They should give you new ones or at least credit towards another set. If it's us, just give us a call & you will be taken care of.


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

Tom - it's not you guys - thanks for sponsoring!
I'm in contact with the shop right now and confident they'll do the right thing.








I checked the rotors for runout - they were OK. I also mic'd the disc and it was still right at spec, so little or no wear.
No pads should have disentegrated like that, not without doing some serious damage to the rotors, and as you can see from the photos they are in pretty good shape.
I've also got a couple short videos checking the drag, rotation, caliper action etc...
Normally in these cases, I'd suspect improper installation or other problem, piston seize, etc... But this time, all I can come up with is defective pads.
Thanks for all the advice and input!


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Questor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Questor* »_
At this point I'm going to try to get a refund on the Mintex pads and apply the cost to a set of Pagid Blues, Hawk HPS, or Ferodo DS2500's - Any recommendations? This GTI is mostly street use with occasional performance driving.


I would try Ferodo DS2500 in the front and Hawk HPS in the rear. That will give you better performance than OEM and remove the rear-bias that the MkIV VW's come with out of the factory. This is the setup I have and it is great for regular highway and city driving. It also held up nicely in my track session last month.
The only downfall to this setup is that you'll have to remember to spray your wheels with a garden hose or wipe them down with a wet rag every week or so to keep them looking nice.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
I think your missing HIS point... HE understands that it happened and was potentially dangersous.. he was talking to all of the people saying OH MY GOD, I'm takingmy mintex pads off.I guarntee you that every other pad manufacture had had a similar failure or worse even.. so why should you switch to them.. failures happen, it sucks and they can be horrible... this wa lucky that nothing bad happened... But freaking out and never buying mintex pads again or taking off a brand new set of mintex pads becuase one person had a failure doesnt' make anything better.. in fact it just inreases the potential for another company to have a failure.


Yes failures do happen. There is no such thing as a zero failure part. My understanding is that most large parts compaines have a formula for cost/benefit analysis in testing. It tells them how much testing should be done to achieve a particular fail rate. Say for brake pads, this rate is one in a million.
The additional cost to test each pad to reach a rate of one in two million might be $2/pad, so thats an additional $2,000,000 to spend by the manufacturer. If we assume that a lawsuit costs $1,000,000, then even though there would be fewer lawsuits, it doesn't pay for the company to do the additional testing.
Sounds heartless, but that is business. Remember the Firestone/Bridgestone/Ford Explorer thing a few years back? Same deal, except in that case, the lawsuits ended up costing way more than even the parts and everybody suffered.


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## dmkozak (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_ I guarntee you that every other pad manufacture had had a similar failure or worse even.. 

Except, you really can't guarantee this. It is only your thought or belief. You really haven't done any actual research to support your thought or belief. Therefore, what you say has either no or little validity.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (dmkozak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dmkozak* »_
Except, you really can't guarantee this. It is only your thought or belief. You really haven't done any actual research to support your thought or belief. Therefore, what you say has either no or little validity.

ok:
well heres one with an EBC failure:
http://www.audi-sport.net/ubbt...83229

Heres one on I think Ferodos (maybe a model by them not sure)
http://www.armyofdarkness.com/1997/part4.html

found a dead link that the google search clearly stated AP pad failure..

Every manufacture has failures at some point... some may never make it to the street but they had the potential to and its still a failure when they find it in random testing... I'll say it again and I'll stand behind it.. every pad manufacture has had some sort of similar failure or worse..


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

Information of this failure and links to the pics have been sent to a number of parties, and the initial response this far has been very positive!
Thanks for everyone's great input and advice.
I will post more details next week as the saga continues...


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## greyhare (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: (Questor)*

Are the slots and holes in your rotors chamfered? It is difficult to tell from the photos on there website. (looks like holes are but slots are not)
Most of the time I have heard of this sort of pad failure it has been caused by unchamfered slots or holes in the rotor.
Good luck on resolving this issue.


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: (greyhare)*

Update:
I am still in contact with the shop that sold me the rotors and the manufacturer of the Mintex pads (TMD friction Ltd.) regarding this incident and the possibility of compensation and refund for the defective items.
I am happy to say that a rep at TPM products (rotor maker) who was not responsibile for this incident in the slightest heard what happened and offered to get me a deep discount on a set of Hawk HPS pads simply because he felt bad about the defective mintex parts and noted that his products performed excellently - the rotors came through basically unscathed in the incident (you can still clearly see the factory crosshatching in the photos).
The Hawk pads arrived at my door today and I am eager to try them out - Thanks again TPM! Can't speak highly enough of your products and outstanding commitment to excellence in all areas.
Will update again when I hear back regarding reimbursement of the defective pads under warranty. I am seeking a full refund of both the front and rear pads, and I feel that Mintex should cover my initial shipping costs as well. If anyone from Mintex / TMD friction Ltd. is reading - I will happily return the unused portion of the front pads as well as the destroyed rears at your shipping and packaging cost to any location you wish. Just glad that this happened when I was pulling into my residence and not on the highway at freeway speeds.
Grey - both the slots and the holes on these rotors are chamfered and covered by the excellent EDP coating that TPM uses to keep the rotors rust free and looking new on the non-friction surfaces, this plating is black and makes the features harder to see.


_Modified by Questor at 9:22 AM 8-18-2004_


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## samcat67 (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (samcat67)*

Follow up.
I've been keeping an eye on the brakes since I saw this and so far everything looks good. I rotated the tires last night and the pads and rotors are all in good shape. There is no sign of anything like what happened to Questor
The Mintex pads are living up to their reputation for less dust than OEM pads.
Looks like it was a fluke.
Thanks again for posting Questor. It's nice to be warned when something like this might happen.


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## GTR_man (Sep 26, 2003)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

Hey man, do you realize that your rotors are at the wrong sides, the left rotor is in right rotors place, and it's against the spinning direction, it seems like that from the pics...or may be there is something that i don't get...








I don't exactly know what side effects it will do, but it don't seems right...


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (GTR_man)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTR_man* »_Hey man, do you realize that your rotors are at the wrong sides, the left rotor is in right rotors place, and it's against the spinning direction, it seems like that from the pics...or may be there is something that i don't get...








I don't exactly know what side effects it will do, but it don't seems right...









How do you know they're the wrong way?
I thought the rotor mounting direction of a vented rotor depends on the direction of the internal vanes which you can't see in those pictures. I thought that the direction of the slot/hole pattern on the surface didin't really matter since some rotors are designed to go one way and some designed to go the other way...


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (GTR_man)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTR_man* »_Hey man, do you realize that your rotors are at the wrong sides, the left rotor is in right rotors place, and it's against the spinning direction, it seems like that from the pics...or may be there is something that i don't get...








I don't exactly know what side effects it will do, but it don't seems right...









There must be something you're not getting! These rotors are installed according to the manufacturers recommendation which is in line with the currently accepted method:
"correct usage is to install the rotors on the side of the vehicle that results in the end of the slot nearest the outer edge of the rotor always contacting the brake pads first"
This has been the thinking with slotted rotors for quite some time now, and I'm not aware of anyone who does differently, unless their venting system is something special. These are VW rears BTW which have always been solid (not vented) rotors.










_Modified by Questor at 11:59 PM 8-20-2004_


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## GTR_man (Sep 26, 2003)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

Well i think it's the other way arround, for example the same brakes from EBC are clearly specified that it's suppose to be the other way, i mean with the slotted side heading toward the spinning direction... What rotors are those..?
Don't know what to say...this issue should be checked by an experts... Cause i have that deep thought that it's the other way... Anyway it's not suppose to do that to the pads... so you better check this up...
It's just an opinion, i could be wrong...


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## eyco (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (GTR_man)*

the slots & drills should go with the spinning direction of the wheel(like in picture) and not against it!!
it clearly showed in the instruction(and logic), the discs came in two boxes, one for the right and one for the left.
anyway it shouldn't disintegrate the pad's like that..
it's or a materiel flaw, or the pads doesn't match the discs.








p.s GTR_man, do you recognize that pic?









_Modified by eyco at 3:37 AM 8-21-2004_


_Modified by eyco at 4:13 AM 8-21-2004_


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (eyco)*









from stoptech site:

_Quote »_The slots on StopTech AeroRotors are cut in the OPPOSITE direction of the vanes. The pattern on a drilled AeroRotor also has the same appearance.* The direction of the slots or hole pattern should not be used to determine what side of the vehicle to place a rotor.* Different manufacturers may have different strategies for slot and hole patterns. 
*The only correct way to determine what side a directional rotor goes on is the internal vane direction.*


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (chris86vw)*

Thanks chris86
Here's another link that illustrates the direction in which most manufacturers create the vanes on their vented rotors:
http://www.baer.com/support/Te...pID=2
Again, these are VW rears, and thus are not vented - they are installed to match the fronts, which are vented, and properly installed according to the manufacturers directions.
Here's a shot of the directions in the background of the rotors - you can just see that they indicate the leading edge with the direction of travel:


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## 20vBeat (Jul 10, 2002)

*Re: Mintex RedBox - ANNHILIATED - Fluke or Not? (Questor)*

Did you happen clean your wheels while they were hot? What type of cleaner do you use on them? I'm only asking because I've read that certain wheel cleaners can damage brake pads and even more so if they are still hot from driving. Just a thought.


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## Questor (Sep 5, 2003)

Hadn't cleaned the wheels with anything since changing the rotors and pads when this happened.


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