# MS2 V3. 16v turbo Acceleration Enrichment



## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

Hi.

i got a nasty lean spon when i go on the throttle when cruising. where it goes full lean a few seconds until it picks up.

the tune isn't the best yet. but does anyone have any good tips for tuning the AE? 

i did not understand much, too many choices, and too little brain to interpret it all


Some general info

16v KR (1.8)
wiseco pistons. china rods. and yada yada
440ccm injectors running @ 3.5bar
KKK K24 Turbo
MS2 v3 (MSe 3.3.3)

are there any secrets to tuning the AE? (treat me like i'm stupid, because thats what i am in this case)


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

Are you using the EAE or basic TPSdot/MAPdot enrichment?


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

as of right now all AE is disabled.

what SHOULD i use?

i'll include my crappy ass tune (if the link works. its to my webhost, havn't used FTP in years, so hopefully its there and working  )

http://foto-garasjen.net/files/


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

Ideally EAE, but you need a nearly perfect VE table. I'm using TPSdot enrichment (assuming you've got a TPS wired up that's the way to go instead of MAPdot). I'm at work at the moment and can't check out your tune.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

yep, tps is hooked up 


no worries, i've got time, car is on jack stands awaiting new innter CV joints (didn't like the torque) 


and a defective innovate MTX-L O2 sensor (throwing a E8 code after a few minuts of driving, and randomly an E4 code)


so. i've got time  

and i'll try to get a hold of a log aswell. have some on my "mapping" computer which is in the garage and a few miles from me


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

If you're interested in what I did (you'll have to reduce the raw pulsewidth #s as you have bigger injectors, but it's just to give you an idea anyway) here's my tune: http://www.msextra.com/forums/download/file.php?id=43140

You probably need to be registered/logged in on the msextra support forums for that link.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

thanks. AE isn't enabled in that msq? says off here

when you are saying reduce the raw pulsewidths, where? is that the req_fuel part?


damn, i feel like an idiot 

but it looks like the file might help me a bunch on the ISV settings


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

Yeah, I've spent tons of time on the ISV stuff :laugh: Needs some work on VE, but I'm holding off as I've maxed out my injectors.

AE is definitely enabled (or should be!) under the time based accel enrichment. That tune may be for msextra 3.4.0, but will load in tuner studio, but may have some funny behavior on earlier firmware.

Unfortunately the accel enrichment uses raw pulsewidths, not the req_fuel number and a percentage of that. Really dumb, but it is what it is.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

somehow it wasnt active when i loaded the tune the first time. but i opened in again now, and now it is.


so, timebasted TPSdot is the one to use? thats great.. because all that EAE stuff really seemed unnecessarily advanced.

now its just a matter of dialing in the rest. the tune is crude and not too good at all. but the car starts and it pulls sort of good.

but, there lives so much more power and fun under there 


are you using the stock bosch 2prong ISV?

had a look at the settings and saw you where running 31hz .. i tried 217hz the first time. had a fekking loud sound and is now defunct... (or so i think, does not make any more sounds)


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

weejunGL said:


> somehow it wasnt active when i loaded the tune the first time. but i opened in again now, and now it is.
> 
> 
> so, timebasted TPSdot is the one to use? thats great.. because all that EAE stuff really seemed unnecessarily advanced.
> ...


EAE is definitely the way to do things when you get the VE table dialed in. Really helps drivability and overall "niceness" of the tune. The time based TPSdot is definitely acceptable, my car drives nearly as well as stock and I have enormous cams and other stuff that should make it drive poorly.

I'm using the stock CIS-Motronic 2 wire ISV. Ignore the frequency setting as I'm using a jbperf frequency multiplier to bump the frequency up by 8 to 248Hz. I did that because you get more fine control of the ISV when you control with a lower frequency, but the valve doesn't like anything below about 150Hz. Are you running the ISV off of 12V or 5V? My ISV doesn't make any odd noises, just a steady hum (even without the jbperf multiplier using MS to control to anywhere from 150Hz to 500Hz)


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

DocWalt said:


> EAE is definitely the way to do things when you get the VE table dialed in. Really helps drivability and overall "niceness" of the tune. The time based TPSdot is definitely acceptable, my car drives nearly as well as stock and I have enormous cams and other stuff that should make it drive poorly.
> 
> I'm using the stock CIS-Motronic 2 wire ISV. Ignore the frequency setting as I'm using a jbperf frequency multiplier to bump the frequency up by 8 to 248Hz. I did that because you get more fine control of the ISV when you control with a lower frequency, but the valve doesn't like anything below about 150Hz. Are you running the ISV off of 12V or 5V? My ISV doesn't make any odd noises, just a steady hum (even without the jbperf multiplier using MS to control to anywhere from 150Hz to 500Hz)


the ISV feed is 12v.

it made a hell of a loud noise when i tested it... its just had a mild hum/buzz to it when i used the old Digifant on it.


i've got more of them. so i can experiment a bit.


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

weejunGL said:


> the ISV feed is 12v.
> 
> it made a hell of a loud noise when i tested it... its just had a mild hum/buzz to it when i used the old Digifant on it.
> 
> ...


Hmm. Pretty sure I'm using 12V too. When you do get it setup, make sure that you set the closed % to something like 30 to actually close the ISV. I'm not closing the valve all the way as it makes the car VERY jerky to drive using a CIS-M throttle body without any air bypass. There's a LOT of engine braking, haha.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

vw feeds it 12v originally, so i did the same 

right know its disabled and i've adjusted the butterfly valve a bit to make it idle about about 1 000rpm.

but this won't help when winter comes. when the temperatures goes to -25degrees C 


my main "issue" is that damn leanspot when i'm first on the throttle when driving, its annoying as f-uck. 

i have a lot of work on the ve and ign tables. but i need to get rid of that damn leanspot...


and i probably need a new wideband... and what should i buy? i've only had innovate products. and i'm not impressed with them anymore. nice products, but the quality is way under par


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

For "simple" installs I have moved to the 14point7 Spartan 2. Before that I was having decent luck with lc2s but too many problems with the lc1 to keep pushing Innovate. 

Leanspot... What tps dot do you see when you see the lean spot?


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

i've got an MTX-L gauge now. its my second one actually, bought one in 2012, which was stored at home until i was installing in in late 2014 on this engine, and it turned out to be DOA. so bought a new one. and this is fekkerd also. thoring E8 after a while, and sometimes an E4 code... havea a new sensor from the first MTX-L i bought that i'm going to try, if that does the samething, then i'm switching to some other brand. 

however.

i've got a small section of a log that has what you ask for

you'll se the TPS first going to 50% then to about 100 after a short while, thats mye little "work-around" to ease the lean spike you can se on inition throttle there.


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

The tune that's currently in your folder is responsible for that log? I finally got a chance to look at the tune regarding the AE settings. If that's the same tune, you need to lower your TPSdot threshold setting and shift all of your TPSdot values in the AE chart to match. Look at your TPSdot values when the throttle isn't moving and figure out what the background noise in the TPSdot value is (it looks awfully low based on that snapshot of a log), set the threshold a bit higher, then tune the rest. You're currently not moving the throttle fast enough to get much if any accel enrichment.

Also, DIYAutotune put together a good guide on tuning it. http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/megasquirt_acceleration_enrichment_tuning.htm


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

yes. the log is from that very msq. the only thing that might have changed is a few cells in the ign/ve table, and not much more.


i'll try your advice when the car is back on the road. i'm waiting for my new inner cv joints now. and i've got to figure out a way to keep the shifter cables from rubbing on the propshaft


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

I totally forgot that you're synchro swapped. I have to imagine it feels quite different from a FWD car


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

DocWalt said:


> I totally forgot that you're synchro swapped. I have to imagine it feels quite different from a FWD car


its an original 1990 Golf GT Syncro 3door 

does not feel too different when just driving normally, but there are way less wheelspin. and its fun as f.uck on snow  (and we do have a lot of that here in norway)


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

weejunGL said:


> its an original 1990 Golf GT Syncro 3door
> 
> does not feel too different when just driving normally, but there are way less wheelspin. and its fun as f.uck on snow  (and we do have a lot of that here in norway)


Ah right, you guys had Syncro cars from the factory 

I'd love that! My GTI wasn't great on snow, and I'm sure it'll now be even worse, haha.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

finally got the golf of the jack stands. 

installed a new Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor today. still the same crap. the MTX-L is throwing of error codes..

the newest now is that its stuck on "heater".. and nothing else. 


so.. i'm calling it a day. i now officaially hate the Innovate s-hit.. 


so. no tuning today. makes no sense in firing up the computer to tune without the wideband working :/


so, i have to find a new one. and this time, it won't be that innovate crap..

either 14point7 or AEM.. i kinda like the AEM best because of its gauge. don't like the blacked out gauge on the 14point7..

but which is best? or are they just the same crap as innovate?


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

I have no issues with my AEM (besides its output not exactly matching between the gauge display and TunerStudio, though I've got it within .2 AFR)


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

my mtx-l was a few points of aswell


if its not worse i might go for the AEM. hopefully it will last a bit longer


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm on ~2 years on mine. I just changed the sensor to confirm that the whacky readings I was getting were real. Sensor was still fine.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

i have decided to buy an AEM UEGO this time.

the only downside is the shipping and taxes from USA to norway.

and our currency is **** at the moment. but hey. its still cheaper then to buy it in norway


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

AEM UEGO 4110 is on the way. 

should arrive in a few weeks (hopefully)


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

DocWalt said:


> Hmm. Pretty sure I'm using 12V too. When you do get it setup, make sure that you set the closed % to something like 30 to actually close the ISV. I'm not closing the valve all the way as it makes the car VERY jerky to drive using a CIS-M throttle body without any air bypass. There's a LOT of engine braking, haha.


This is truth. If you drive with the ISV completely closed, throttle lift and tip-in are impossible to tune. I'm using the G60 throttle body, which only has a tiny bypass. I leave the ISV almost full open, the engine sounds a lot happier, it growls. I think the air in the runners is equalized by having a leak in each port.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

hmm. right now my ISV is turned off and i've opened the butterfly valve in the TB a bit so it idles around 1 grand.


would that make it problematic?


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

weejunGL said:


> hmm. right now my ISV is turned off and i've opened the butterfly valve in the TB a bit so it idles around 1 grand.
> 
> 
> would that make it problematic?


IMO I'd set that bypass to idle at ~800 with the ISV hoses blocked off, because then you can use Megasquirt to partially open the ISV and bring the RPMs up. Keep in mind that the factory ISVs are in a "safe" default position to bleed air with no power so unless you have the ISV hoses blocked off you've got that extra airflow affecting idle RPM (which is perfect, so if the ISV dies the car doesn't just stall every time you try to idle). When you ramp up the duty cycle from 0% the ISV closes somewhere around 30% duty cycle then starts opening again around 38%. I set Megasquirt to use a "closed" setting of 45% or something like that to achieve the same sort of bleed that you have on your throttle body right now.

My car currently drives pretty much like stock regarding the ISV behavior. I can even slowly let out the clutch and drive off without touching the throttle, even with TT's big 288 cams  No jerky behavior on and off throttle either... but it's taken me almost two years of learning and playing with things to figure out what seems to work well for me and my constantly changing setup. That said, the ISV is overly sensitive IMO and the smallest duty cycle changes I can do in MS lead to bigger changes in RPM than I'd like, but I've learned to just live with it for now.

I doubt what you're doing will be problematic, just be aware of the ISV behavior.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I adjusted my ISV physically to get a tighter seal but regret doing so. Now with MS it's closed at 24% and open at 30%. Check this out: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4351677-Adjusting-an-ISV


Stupid "mod"! Now mine can actually get stuck open when it's below 20 degrees out. :banghead: Someday I'll adjust it back to stock "limp mode" position.

As far as the resolution goes. Word has it that the VW ECU outputs a saw tooth waveform. MS can only output a square wave. This is believed to be the reason for lack of resolution.

*Disclaimer* - My seat of the pants evaluation:
As far as driveability goes, I find that when engine braking, the vacuum shouldn't pull less than 20 kPa. If it pulls all the way down to 15 kPa, the manifold is too "tight". You need to let it leak. My engine makes more power when breathing through the ISV port(s) (due to equalization of air supply in each runner).


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

still_a_G said:


> I adjusted my ISV physically to get a tighter seal but regret doing so. Now with MS it's closed at 24% and open at 30%. Check this out:
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4351677-Adjusting-an-ISV
> 
> ...


The stock VW ECU uses a circuit that controls the ISV using varying current, like the factory DPR on a CIS car. Someone built a circuit to clone the VW control using MS's PWM output. See here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=28952 and here: http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?162119-Who-is-running-MS-with-a-Bosch-ISV


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Completely unnecessary on ms2, the 2 wire in pwm at ~100hz works great and matches how the aba and vr6 circuits work. 

This does make me wonder if the g60 isv is different...


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Completely unnecessary on ms2, the 2 wire in pwm at ~100hz works great and matches how the aba and vr6 circuits work.
> 
> This does make me wonder if the g60 isv is different...


I agree, mine ran fine at ~100hz. It is smoother with jbperf's PWM multiplier though


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

the AEM UEGO came today. so hopefully i can start tuning some more 


if my differential don't die. it has gotten sloppy as hell after i started driving the 16v turbo (way to much torque i guess. and the O2C isn't the strongest gearbox in the world)


i'll try the AE first. just to see if i can get anything happening there.

i have tons of tuning on the ve and ignition maps. but i want to see if there are any changes when i tip the trottle


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

DocWalt said:


> The stock VW ECU uses a circuit that controls the ISV using varying current, like the factory DPR on a CIS car. Someone built a circuit to clone the VW control using MS's PWM output. See here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=28952 and here: http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?162119-Who-is-running-MS-with-a-Bosch-ISV



I don't know what a DPR or CIS is. But apparently I read similar works by the same author: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=28952


BTW, I have an AEM wideband that I bought in 2008. Been in use on and off since 2009. Still working fine. For one reason or the other the Innovate product didn't seem like a good purchase, at the time anyways.


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

still_a_G said:


> *I don't know what a DPR or CIS is.* But apparently I read similar works by the same author: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=28952
> 
> 
> BTW, I have an AEM wideband that I bought in 2008. Been in use on and off since 2009. Still working fine. For one reason or the other the Innovate product didn't seem like a good purchase, at the time anyways.


Must be nice :laugh:


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

using the AEM UEGO 4110. which settings should be used under the "calibrate afr targets" ?

there are a few AEMs there, but not the 4110.

is custom the way to go ?


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

weejunGL said:


> using the AEM UEGO 4110. which settings should be used under the "calibrate afr targets" ?
> 
> there are a few AEMs there, but not the 4110.
> 
> is custom the way to go ?


I went with custom using the chart that AEM provides for calibration.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

had some time and got to install the AEM UEGO today.

plotted in the "calibration" data from the AEM chart, and voila. near identical on the gauge and MS

(.1 off. MS shows .1 leaner then the gauge)

this is acceptible in my book. and its WAY faster then the Innovate on the warmup too


so far so good. but we'll se how it behaves over time. the MTX-L also worked good to begin with


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

had a go at the AE today.. became a bit better, but not good enough.

however, i've relalized that i need to have a friend with me while mapping. doing this crap alone while driving is not optimal. to say the least.


but i'm definatley on the right track.

and i generally need the lean the VE map. mostly on the rich side here now.


and has anyone activated the Over run fuelcut?

i thought that it would be a great idea to do this. but it was pretty on-off while driving normally, even tho i lowered the RPM and MAP to better suit coasting.


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm using the over run fuel cut. disabling after 1.7(?) seconds. I recently changed the MAP threshold (I had to raise the MAP setting because I have pretty poor vacuum with my cams) to enable the overrun, but otherwise it's the same as the tune file I linked earlier.

Yeah, tuning by yourself is tough. I need to go out and log while driving in a way that will cause the bad behavior I was experiencing, then go home and study what it was doing in the logs and figure out what I need to do to prevent the issue.

I'll get a new tune up soon that should have some more useful values, just take note of my injector size and scale the pulse widths for AE appropriately. It should at least be driveable on your setup.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

i've got pretty good vacuum (0.8/9 bar) so i set it to activate on a bit lower vacuum.

it turned of the car at one point. and driving it through the city was a pain as it kicked in and out like a switch, not smooth

i'll fiddle around with theese settings some more in the future. kinda makes sense using it. and it made the car decel better when coasting downhill


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

If you take a look at my VE table, you can see how I ramp up the fueling from low values quickly at the bottom of the table. I had to do that or it was really jerky using the decel fuel cut. I'm not sure why I had to do that, because I've just been upping the AE a little, so it's just as rich when I get back onto the throttle.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

i see.


bit different then mine i can see too 

but i'm running turbo. and pig stinking rich..

need to get more acceptible AFRs. driving with the AFRs i've got now can't be good


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

What kind of AFRs are you running at?

Here's my latest tune: http://www.msextra.com/forums/download/file.php?id=44017


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

not much different then last time. but heres the current tune + most recent little log

http://www.foto-garasjen.net/files/


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

Yeah, wow, you're running way rich. EGO is maxing out trying to correct. Do you have a license for TunerStudio? I ask because you could drive around a bit using VE Analyze Live and at least get the tune within 5-10%, then do some fine tuning.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

DocWalt said:


> Yeah, wow, you're running way rich. EGO is maxing out trying to correct. Do you have a license for TunerStudio? I ask because you could drive around a bit using VE Analyze Live and at least get the tune within 5-10%, then do some fine tuning.



yes. TS and MLV licence.

i don't use the EGO to correct anything. just as a display at the moment


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

weejunGL said:


> yes. TS and MLV licence.
> 
> i don't use the EGO to correct anything. just as a display at the moment


or am i? 

i believe i might have misunderstood something here.

even tho i'm not including the AFR targets. does it still correct since i've got EGO control set to single wide band?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yes it will correct to stoich if you're using single wideband and an afr target (even if its not a target map). The only way to turn it fully off is set controller authority = 0% in the EGO menu or set one of the rpm/tps/map filters to keep it off.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Yes it will correct to stoich if you're using single wideband and an afr target (even if its not a target map). The only way to turn it fully off is set controller authority = 0% in the EGO menu or set one of the rpm/tps/map filters to keep it off.


for **** sake.... i'm a moron..

i can indeed disable the O2 completly for the time being ? (there is an option for this in the EGO control window)


no wonder i've had some funky AFR values. it has tried correcting 15% all the time.


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

Just set the EGO authority to 0% like Paul said, then either do the tuning by hand or with VEAL in TS. I ran your log and tune through the VE Analyze in MLV... It wanted to change some cells a LOT even when using "Very Hard" cell change. Disabling EGO for now should help you get a lot more consistent values


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

thanks

i've done so now. 

also tired what you said. analyze the the VEs. only with normal cell change, and it was quite the change i could see.


i havn't had the time to load the tune to the MS2 yet. but i'll probably have some time in the weekend to drive around and test some more


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I use the overrun fuel cut. Suits my engine and driving style nicely. Plus, I can't get a smooth off throttle deceleration a/f mixture. I think my injectors suck. They are newer Accel's.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

i uploaded the new "VE optimized" map today.. that had ALOT to say when it came to driveability..

WAY WAY WAAY better to drive, and not overly rich as it has been.

about 14.5 to 15 ARF while crusing. a bit rich on boost, but that is managable.


overall a good improvement

and i've also disababeled the controller authority. so the MS does not try to alter the AFR while driving


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## DocWalt (Sep 6, 2012)

:thumbup: Get it dialed in then start playing with the drivability stuff like AE, decel fuel cut, EGO, etc. Then get some videos of it


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

had a go at the AE today. lowered the threshold step by step..

became way better. it didn't lean out as much on initial throttle.

however, i found out that my thermostat has stopped working. so going to have to fix that (pretty much new, but still does not open anymore)

overall its much better to drive now.

just hate my clutch. (clutchnet stage 2) the pedal is stiff, and that actually takes away some of the fun in driving for me.


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