# Time for Stand-Alone!



## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

I can't take dealing with the Motronic ECU any more. Time to spend the coin.
I know a lot of peeps are using SDS.
What do you pees think of DTA?
Any other good sugestions that would work well on my 2L 8v?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Time for Stand-Alone! (TurboABA)*

I love SDS







. This is my second car with it, and I have done at least 5 installs and programs for others locally. SDS rocks, super easy to use and provides wicked results.


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## peteM3 (Sep 10, 2001)

i'm buying SDS. If it could take oem crank / cams sensors, and had a way to store extra maps, it would be PERFECT. 
until then it sjust very close.


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (peteM3)*

Same here SDS all the way!! no problems very easy to tune http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (euroroccoT)*

Amen http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'd be tuning SDS right now if I had the coin


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## Blak Golf (Sep 10, 2003)

i have my unit but its not installed yet, i would save the $$$ and get sds and a nice wide band with dataloging and ur set. dta is really cool stuff but i dont think the average person really needs all that. plus sds have amazing customer service i. they shipped my unit over night i was very impressed


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Blak Golf)*

I bought SDS but it's still in a box. I'm glad I went with it but next time I will probably go with some that could datalog and intergrate with a wideband to eliminate some tuning(I'm an idiot)
BUT SDS was super cheap(25% off g-buy) so I'm not complaining.


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## Blak Golf (Sep 10, 2003)

yah GOD BLESS STEVET


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Blak Golf)*

SDS.........20k plus miles and street/ strip,and STILL pulling perfect vacuum,plugs are tan,and my car is starting to bore me,it is too dam reliable







even my downpipe bolts don't loosen up......must be the SDS


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_SDS.........20k plus miles and street/ strip,and STILL pulling perfect vacuum,plugs are tan,and my car is starting to bore me,it is too dam reliable







even my downpipe bolts don't loosen up......must be the SDS









you piss me off...in a good way http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_SDS.........20k plus miles and street/ strip,and STILL pulling perfect vacuum,plugs are tan,and my car is starting to bore me,it is too dam reliable







even my downpipe bolts don't loosen up......must be the SDS









Hmm... I have to go with SDS in that case just so that I can stop breaking my manifold studs!


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (TurboABA)*

I'm running DTA. Fairly easy to tune and very reliable. Heck... I made it 1000 miles each way to Dubwars and back!







Least of my worries was the DTA.
SDS is all fine and dandy but I gotta have something with a real user interface for tuning and datalogging.
I'd recommend DTA or Autronic if you want something a little more advanced (sequential injection, traction control, autotune, etc) and don't care about the knock sensor option.


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## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: (Angular)*

*Angular* 
Please tell me more.
From what I understand, the DTA just plugs into your stock harness and reads off all the sensors. All I would need is a MAP sensor added.
Does it come with start up maps? How good is the self tune? I mean.... I have the ability to properly tune it for power and stuff, I just don't want to piss around with it for 3 weeks trying to get it started and running!
Oh... and which system are you running? How did the install go? I will do everything myself as I don't trust anyone touching my car! 
Thanks


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## turboit (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: (TurboABA)*

I know Bill Schimmel uses and recommends DTA, you may also wanna give him a call at SP, I'm sure he would be more than willing to answer your questions in detail.


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## synthsis (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: (turboit)*

i'll be on TECII if my car ever gets finished


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_I'm running DTA. Fairly easy to tune and very reliable. Heck... I made it 1000 miles each way to Dubwars and back!







Least of my worries was the DTA.
*SDS is all fine and dandy but I gotta have something with a real user interface for tuning and datalogging.*
I'd recommend DTA or Autronic if you want something a little more advanced (sequential injection, traction control, autotune, etc) and don't care about the knock sensor option.


SDS is just that...Simple Digital Solutions.I am sorry but i had SDS before and i found it hard playing gameboy with the damn thing.It was like pressing A for jump and A and B to go forward








no no....i dont care what anyone says but i wanted something that i could porgram with my laptop FULLY.
DTA is excellent for a VR6 .Eurosport in TO are the agent for it and they told me that they have never had a problem with them.Installing was a breeze and tuning was excellent.But thats in Canada....i assume your in this US.
SO,if you want an affordable Standalone system then may i suggest 034efi?CHeck it out Http://www.034efi.com.The system was built for Audi's and VW's by an Audi owner.Jim Green Managed 341Whp with a turbo upgrade and the system.
Granted SDS may be what you want but i would check out Stage Ic for $1100US and 034 has its own forums and the guys are great.
for more infornation check out 
Http://www.motorgeek.com










_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 1:29 PM 6-24-2004_


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## MicrobiologyNerd (Dec 2, 2002)

*Re: (synthsis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *synthsis* »_i'll be on TECII if my car ever gets finished









welcome to the club


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## VW blk Jetta3 (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Time for Stand-Alone! (TurboABA)*

I just installed my sds a couple days ago. car fired up smooth as hell first try. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
DTA is excellent for a VR6 .Eurosport in TO are the agent for it and they told me that they have never had a problem with them.Installing was a breeze and tuning was excellent.But thats in Canada....i assume your in this US.


I've already contacted Eurosport as I'm 1h away from their shop! It's also going on a 2L not a VR. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (TurboABA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboABA* »_
I've already contacted Eurosport as I'm 1h away from their shop! It's also going on a 2L not a VR. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

well tell Jack you dont want to use DTA ....give 034 a shot.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

I currently run SDS, and I think if I was to choose build another turbo car for someone, I would probably use DTA or TEC3. I would really like to have a laptop program opened with all of my values in front of me. I find it a little bit tiring to have to scroll through every single adjustment field in the SDS.
SDS works well, but if you're the type of guy who really wants to get down and dirty with the tuning, you will probably like something that uses a laptop better.
I really wish SDS had the ability to control an ISV ... that's probably the part that bothers me the most.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

I have a haltech, and while I dont think its the greatest thing in the world I do like it very much. Its barely any more than an SDS, and does alot more. If the things it can do for you are worth an extra 1-200 bux is debatable, and Im debated out, but thats the truth.
And it can use all the stock sensors, but they dont work well with the factory motronic crank trigger on the 2.0 ABA. It works just fine on a 1.8 distributor though, which is easily swapped in place of the 2.0 unit.


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

OK So if I wanted to get SDS up and running on my Supercharged VR6 running 15 psi. What am I looking at for TOTAL cost?
I haveno wide band yet. But my dyno shop I use has one as well as a variable load dyno for total tunning?
Scooter


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (TurboABA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboABA* »_ From what I understand, the DTA just plugs into your stock harness and reads off all the sensors. All I would need is a MAP sensor added.
Does it come with start up maps? How good is the self tune? I mean.... I have the ability to properly tune it for power and stuff, I just don't want to piss around with it for 3 weeks trying to get it started and running!
Oh... and which system are you running? How did the install go? I will do everything myself as I don't trust anyone touching my car! 


It doesn't quite just plug into your stock harness but on a later model car that came with EFI it's much easier and you can splice into the factory harness. Pretty sure it should work with your stock coolant, airtemp, and throttle position sensors.
DTA ships some sample maps. I got a 2L 16V map from Jack and Eurospeed.ca but it required a lot of editing to get into "therapeutic range". It's not terribly difficult to get the car to idle. In a couple hours you can have it driveable, assuming you have a wideband O2 sensor and AFR display. Even full throttle tuning isn't all THAT hard. 
I haven't used the auto-tune feature yet as my wideband isn't hooked up to the DTA. I've been doing it the hard way!







But the idea is that DTA P8Pro generates a table of fuel correction values based on feedback from the O2 sensor. You can edit these values and finally choose to apply them to your fuel map. It's not really "self tuning" but it's definitely computer ASSISTED tuning.
I'm running the P8 Pro. Install wasn't terribly difficult considering all the wiring had to be done from scratch on the old Scirocco.
Like I said, if I had to do over again I would either choose DTA (again) or maybe one of the Autronic products since I hear many good things about them as well.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*

Ye Jack at Eurospeed is great.Spent a good while talking to him for my 16V turbo project(i belive he is going to break the world record in this class)
If your sticking with the VR6 then Eurospeed and DTA are what you want.If your looking for affordable engine management system that was built for the inline engines then 034efi is the thing for yiou.
Like i said before...SDS is for Game boy freaks.Sorry the less time i could spend tuning my car,the more time i have to make money


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Last I saw, that 034 EFI wasn't so affordable anymore.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_Last I saw, that 034 EFI wasn't so affordable anymore.

$1100 for a Stage Ic? 
Waste Spark ignition and more options than DTA or Haltech?
And MORE SUPPORT?The thing has its own website...
i am sorry but i have seen the customers of 034efi first hand and they all were satisfied.
I am going to be frank,obviously if you spend $5 or $5000 on something,your going to think you made the best descision and the best choice and noone is going to change your mind.Whatever you bought is best for you.Right or Wrong?
Well with the SDS i was reading on forums just like this and eveyrone said oh the system is the bomb,the price was great hadie hada....what ended up happening?had to get rid of the SDS.
The inline 5 system(Stage IIc) requires a different setup than the stage 1's.The stage Ic uses waste spark ignition (just like the rest) and at $1100 i could not go wrong.
This is Stage Ic:
http://www.034efi.com/034ECUSTGI.html
And check out this 1.8T User - Randy Hill.
http://www.034efi.com/featured_users.html
Honestly we could go on for days as to what systems to use and why they are so good.I allready said for a VR engine to use DTA.Why?
Because DTA developed a system for the VR6 engine.Not for a Nissan Sunny or Toyota Corolla.Specifically for the VR6 engine found in volkswagens.034efi was designed on an Audi inline 5 engine(lengthened inline 4 engine) and what does this guy own?An inline 4....therefore i think 034efi would be a better option for him.If he wants to go DTA then thats all up to him as well.
Agtronic,you and I are just satisfied customers spreading the word.Not so?Have a







on me for giving Jack support but i also gotta give props for Javad for what he has done.


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Calm down there, sparky. I'm not slamming the 034 stuff, I'm just saying it isn't as inexpensive as it used to be when it was the first system designed around 5 cylinder engines. The entry level DTA and Autronic and other systems can be had for around $1000. Wasted spark is no big deal. Any decent EMS should support that, as does the low end DTA.
What features do you think 034 Stage Ic has that DTA doesn't. I paid $1600 for DTA P8Pro which is a little more but has full traction control, launch control, anti lag system, programmable PWM outputs, sequential and staged injection, coil on plug, etc.

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I am going to be frank,obviously if you spend $5 or $5000 on something,your going to think you made the best descision and the best choice and noone is going to change your mind.Whatever you bought is best for you.Right or Wrong?


I have no idea who "you" refers to. Certainly not me. I'm on my second standalone EMS already and not convinced it will be my last. If you read what I posted earlier, I suggested DTA *or* Autronic. I'm not locked into any one product.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_*Calm down there, sparky*. I'm not slamming the 034 stuff, I'm just saying it isn't as inexpensive as it used to be when it was the first system designed around 5 cylinder engines. The entry level DTA and Autronic and other systems can be had for around $1000. Wasted spark is no big deal. Any decent EMS should support that, as does the low end DTA.

no need for that comment.Were having a conversation...not a dog war.Now,when 034efi came out years ago it was a jacket/supplementary injection system to control extra injectors.Like all Standalone's development happens.
Stage 1b utilises the distributor and can be had for $900 and WILL control fuel as well as Ignition.

_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_
What features do you think 034 Stage Ic has that DTA doesn't. I paid $1600 for DTA P8Pro which is a little more but has full traction control, launch control, anti lag system, programmable PWM outputs, sequential and staged injection, coil on plug, etc.


And all of the above can be had in Stage Ic without that price tag


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

SDS is a SIMPLE DIGITAL SYSTEM.
If you want more...go with the others mentioned.
No standalone is perfect and wizard said it PERFECT when he said that you will stand behind what you buy because you don't want to think you wasted 1G.
Once again I bought SDS because of it's simplicity and I'm a simple guy plus lots of people use it. When Tyrone27 and the other guys start talking tecII/III talk I get lost fast. 
But please guys...it's just stand alone.
Jason


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
And all of the above can be had in Stage Ic without that price tag









Please note what it says right on the main page of their website:
STAGE IIc NOW W/ANTI-LAG, LAUNCH CONTROL, DUAL STAGE REVLIMITER AND DATALOGING MEMORY CHIP!*
And the price tag for the IIc is $1650.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Angular)*

Note to self, as posted above Stage IIc is typically used on Inline 5 Audi's
Stage Ic is for waste spark application (inline 4 engines) and is $1100US.







.By the way Laucnh control and all those other fancy gadgets are available from 034 for a small fee.Guess what...it will still be cheaper than $1650 
enough about that......this is going to end up leading nowhere.No need for CAPS and no need for slanderous remarks.At the end of the day neither you nor I will be buying this guy the ECU he needs/chooses so relax.


_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 12:32 AM 6-25-2004_


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## rhussjr (Aug 7, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Here is my latest project that I am working on. It has SDS on it. Fired it up yesterday. Runs like a champ. Rev's fast and strong and just have to take care of some minor things and start the fine tuning.








The SDS coil pack mounted in place of the washer bottle








Notice the blue hose at the center bottom of the picture, this is the "blow off valve hose - recirculated to the turbo inlet.








The T3/T40E








Aluminum radiator pipe & FAL fan








A more detailed shot of the lower hose as well








Another perspective








Intercooler shot (will get big bumper - or an RS front - to increase air flow)








Throttle body and cable bracket








A shot down the rail side








Dirt & grime will go away when we paint the car and bay.








Turbo and wastegate shot - have to make the dump tube for the wastegate








And another shot








16V plug wires and heat braid








Simple bracket to hold the MAP sensor


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

How much did the SDS cost in Total?


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## Blak Golf (Sep 10, 2003)

i payed mine with knock sensing without sensor, 3bar map for 1750$ canadian with the group buy that stevenT organised (if he ever does it again i give my word that hes a super guy to deal with). i was at first really thinking about dta but at the price that sds came up i could put it on run it for a while if i ever wanna change i can sell it and not lose to much $$$, i guess at the end its all about the $$$ doesnt matter how much u guys argue about whats better if the guy cant go pay for it. DTA is cool stuff and if there was a group buy i would have bought it.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Blak Golf)*

for my sds with every option and sensor I paid about 1200 from the StevenT group buy. 
it was a GREAT deal!
Jason


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_for my sds with every option and sensor I paid about 1200 from the StevenT group buy. 
it was a GREAT deal!
Jason

and what are yiou running your ignition off of?The Dizzy?


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
and what are yiou running your ignition off of?The Dizzy?

no I wanted to delete the dizzy so I went with the 4F system. Of course SDS provided the GM coilpacks. My options were knock control, fast idle, 3 bar map, fuel pump relay(just in case cause it was cheap) and bosch air water sensors. Like I said...because of the group buy I paid right around 1200 or something.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

SDS is easy to install,and takes WAY less time than Laptop system,unless you know what target afr you want and use aa"auto tune" function.......but SDS is easily programmed in the car by having controller plugged in all the time,you can have perfect drivability and no issues ,something a tuner wouyld have a hard time doing with the 2 hours you hire him for to program on the dyno,that will leave you to learn how tro tune and tune startup,drivability,etc.........I got 4 guys running it here,and we all have a conbined total of almost 40K driving with NOT ONE issue from the SDS.......these cars I have installed SDS,my car,23psi,12.8,113.7 best trap,VR6T13psi,13.005,112.45 best trap,2.0 turbo,[email protected],14 psi,and NA 16V Cabby,[email protected] 93......so SDS can give you good performance,and reliabilty.....I have not touched my controller for months.........I don't want to techno-geek out,I would rather have reliability and ease of tuning.........guys aren't usually saying "Gameboy"when I am showing them the back of my car..........







Funny I see all sorts of laptop threads about issues/problems,yet I NEVER see SDS "problems" posted about







explain that one


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

oh boy
now we are going to start a Stand Alone War?I Had SDS and there is no denying it....you WILL NEVER GET full control like 034/DTM/Haltech and whatever else.The system is good for starters but its not where i want to be again.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Man you are a "control freak" haha! So you are saying if I had one of your "full controlling systems" I would be faster+quicker right now? Please tell me how......and why this would happen.Are you saying you are such a master tuner,or can tell fueling differences at 100rpm increments through your right foot?







Man you have no clue how good SDS works,take a ride in my car and you would change your tune.........I drive it everyday to work BTW.......







did you get your SDS car to go fast?What were it's times and traps?Maybe because yu did not tune it correctly you are blaming it on the SDS,and you think a "full controlling"system will make your car faster.......they both do the same thing,fuel and spark right?It is what YOU input into it that makes it work good/bad,












_Modified by Holy Piston at 7:40 AM 6-25-2004_


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

I think it's perfectly okay for people to be very picky about their choice of standalone. But I don't see why people are getting offended or angry. There is one thing we all want : Control of fuel and ignition timing, and a MAP sensor. Once you have these 3 elements, you're in business. All systems will give you the same MAX HP number if programmed properly. If traction control is important to you, choose a system with traction control. If it pisses you off to use an incar programmer to tune the car, then get a system that requires a laptop. In the end, we all end-up with very similar numbers per psi ... (assuming identical setups).
Each one of the systems out there attract me for one reason or the other. For me, the perfect system would be something like DTA, but with an optional in-car programmer to make adjustments on the fly. I think Microtech offered that and I was REALLY interested in that system, but I had already installed SDS on my car. 
I don't regret getting SDS 'cause I know it works perfectly, but I would enjoy traction control and a Windows-based interface.
At the end of the day, I'm just happy my car starts everyday, and I can get into boost and fight for traction in 3rd on 8 PSI. (Soon to be 15-18 PSI).
I think people are looking too deeply into it, a standalone is a VERY VERY simple thing. It controls timing and fuel. Just 'cause one person likes one system and the other likes the next one, doesn't mean either a no good. I don't think that any system that is unacceptable will ever make it to market. So don't worry.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_Man you are a "control freak" haha! So you are saying if I had one of your "full controlling systems" I would be faster+quicker right now? Please tell me how......and why this would happen.Are you saying you are such a master tuner,or can tell fueling differences at 100rpm increments through your right foot?







Man you have no clue how good SDS works,take a ride in my car and you would change your tune.........I drive it everyday to work BTW.......







did you get your SDS car to go fast?What were it's times and traps?Maybe because yu did not tune it correctly you are blaming it on the SDS,and you think a "full controlling"system will make your car faster.......they both do the same thing,fuel and spark right?It is what YOU input into it that makes it work good/bad,








_Modified by Holy Piston at 7:40 AM 6-25-2004_









dont get me wrong ...SDS is an alrigt system just that it is annoying to tune.I prefer to have all my values infront me and i am far from a Tuning God.Having a Laptop just makes things so much easier.Please dont let the SDS guys come and beat on me now







(they usually come in packs







)
But in all seriousness Holy Piston i am sure that you would hate to think you wasted your money buying something that someone else thinks is a waste of time.Your obviously going to back up your product to the end.
Look the truth of the fact....i WAS an SDS owner.There is no Denying that yes the System worked for me.Why did it work for me?Because i had the patience to sit down and tune it.What happened then?Well i got tired of sitting down and playing with a pad.It was time to go all out.Even SDS on the bottom in there disclaimer says that they know they dont have the best system out there.
FACT:There is no denying it that SDS owners will always swear by there products....am i right or wrong?


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

I understand what yu are saying Ag,and agree,but it is funny to me that guys think that there set-up is so radical that they will use EVERY feature of a high end system,when all you 99% of the time need is air/fuel,ignition,and MAP based timing/fuel.......like I said,what IS the ratio of "I need help/having problems"laptop threads as opposed to SDS ones........







I have turbo peace now,I drive in my car,I 100% trust it,and drive home from the track after 20+ psi boost....no tow-truck needed........







and Wizard,I personally don't care what anybody else buys,I just want to share my experience with SDS,and have no desire to make my car any "better" with a laptop system.......there is a lot of racing still to be had this summer and I will be trying to get better times,still with the SDS........I will post vids one day and you can see what I am talking about.....










_Modified by Holy Piston at 7:58 AM 6-25-2004_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_like I said,what IS the ratio of "I need help/having problems"laptop threads as opposed to SDS ones........







: 

Well obviously not all systems are the same Holy.If thats the case everyone would have Dell computers instead of IBM/Macintosh and all the rest.Each system has there ups and downs.
Personally i like 034 efi because the ease of install.Others like Haltech becasue of the ease of Tuning.But yes your right,i have not seen anyone with an SDS having problems with the system.I have howveer seen people rip it out of the car without hassle and go elsewhere.
But yes its no big secret as to what there functions/jobs are.Last i checked Stand Alone systems didnt make coffee for me....so whatever


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_FACT:There is no denying it that SDS owners will always swear by there products....am i right or wrong?









Sorry man, but I don't think this has anything to do with anything. I mean, sure people always stand by their choice of system. I like to encourage SDS 'cause they're a Canadian company, and I am really into their business ethics and the brutal honesty they display on their site. And in the end, I know the system is key to keeping my newly-boosted 90,000-mile engine running strong for the next 90,000.
I didn't buy this system 'cause of the SDS guys pushing it on this site, I actually bought it before noticing there was an "SDS gang" on here. I liked the fact that the installation was clear in my head the first time I visited their site. I didn't know anything about this stuff, went there and in a few hours had a clear idea of what was required to get this thing running in my car.
Even with a primitive standalone system like SDS, we're miles ahead of FMU / CHIP setups. (Not that they don't work, but are a lot of work and hassle to get right). 
Again, I'm not trying to push SDS, just trying to get the message across that there is a place for all of these systems, and none should be considered "a waste of time".


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

fair enough.I said my piece....








Dont let this turn into an SDS bashing thread or a Wizard-of-OD hating thread.Lets try and give the guy some choices/options. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_fair enough.I said my piece....








Dont let this turn into an SDS bashing thread or a Wizard-of-OD hating thread.Lets try and give the guy some choices/options. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Good call. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I think he has plenty of material here to read through.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Wizard,I am not bashing you at all,and I am not the only one that is happy with SDS,just as there are peeps happy with their chip/fmu setup,whatever you are happy with ....I thinkSDS is stand alone for the "average Joe"like myself.......


----------



## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

Thanks for the info guys. (although most posts are a bickering match)








Anyways.... this is where I'm at.
I'm currently making 255whp and 273 wtrq out of my 2L 8v. This is with Split Second and no timing control.
I need timing control because I know there's more ponies in there.
On Tuesday I will be going down to see Jack @ Eurospeed. I have considered SDS for a while now, but I like to see all my values on the same screen and don't want to have to scroll through everything just to change something. I'm also considering a Wolf 3D system.
I would really like not to have to put on magnets or a missing tooth wheel on my crank.


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD, TurboABA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_No need for CAPS and no need for slanderous remarks.At the end of the day neither you nor I will be buying this guy the ECU he needs/chooses so relax.

Slanderous remarks? You are indeed a funny little man. How's that for slanderous?







The "CAPS" stuff was direct cut and paste from 034EFI website.

_Quote, originally posted by *TurboABA* »_On Tuesday I will be going down to see Jack @ Eurospeed. I have considered SDS for a while now, but I like to see all my values on the same screen and don't want to have to scroll through everything just to change something. I'm also considering a Wolf 3D system.
I would really like not to have to put on magnets or a missing tooth wheel on my crank.


Cool. Tell [email protected] that Bradley Peet from Seattle says hi. Having local support for a product can be a huge benefit and definitely a plus in favor of DTA (if that's the route you choose to go).
Assuming you have a ABA block, you can use the OEM crank sensor with DTA. Piece of cake.


----------



## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_
Cool. Tell [email protected] that Bradley Peet from Seattle says hi. Having local support for a product can be a huge benefit and definitely a plus in favor of DTA (if that's the route you choose to go).
Assuming you have a ABA block, you can use the OEM crank sensor with DTA. Piece of cake.









I will tell him. And yes.... I'm using the ABA block (well.... whole motor). Also, I think I'm going for the DTA. Just need to talk to Jack and I will decide on Tues.


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (TurboABA)*

You sound like a candidate for the Holley system. 

_Quote, originally posted by *TurboABA* »_Thanks for the info guys. (although most posts are a bickering match)








Anyways.... this is where I'm at.
I'm currently making 255whp and 273 wtrq out of my 2L 8v. This is with Split Second and no timing control.
I need timing control because I know there's more ponies in there.
On Tuesday I will be going down to see Jack @ Eurospeed. I have considered SDS for a while now, but I like to see all my values on the same screen and don't want to have to scroll through everything just to change something. I'm also considering a Wolf 3D system.
I would really like not to have to put on magnets or a missing tooth wheel on my crank.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

did anybody check out the digital dash that hooks up to p8pro! talk about goodies...
that looks straight like the dash that is in my formula car! that would blow peoples minds in an old vdub.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (TurboABA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboABA* »_
I will tell him. And yes.... I'm using the ABA block (well.... whole motor). Also, I think I'm going for the DTA. Just need to talk to Jack and I will decide on Tues.

see so he didnt go SDS or 034efi
we helped him decide to go DTA.
what a nice outcome..


----------



## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

There is also Emerald, the M3DK, good prices and features. http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_m3dk.html


----------



## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: (MarcoVR6SC)*

UPDATE:
I went and talked to Jack at Eurospeed. He seems like a very knowledgeble guy. He answered all my questions and gave me advice as well. I will go back tomorrow most likely and purchase a system from him. He specializes in the other engines, and has not really built serious ABAs before, but seems to be willing to help if problems arise.
We'll see how it goes!


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (TurboABA)*

Couple questions about SDS and others.
Does SDS compensate automatically for changes in weather, ie humidity, tuning it in one locale and then say driving up into the mountains etc.
Does any system allow for you to have a setting for pump gas and another for race gas, without having to go in and change all the values?


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (16vracer)*

fight fight fight. lol I say wire in a small computer with touch screen with your stand alone for full engine management.


----------



## PorpShow (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: (tyrone27)*

Anyone using MegaSquirt? http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html How about Genboard (MS+wideband O2) http://www.vems-group.org/
I'm gonna be putting the Genboard on my 93 Corrado VR6 (soon to be Turbo)
Full software tuning, integrated wideband controller, LCD controller (a'la SDS) for about $200. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: (PorpShow)*

cool. I been looking into gen board v3 for the longest but I don't know anything that has used it. I can't solider so if I got it it would be the complete assembled version for 500 some dollars.


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (16vracer)*

I know the Holley system has that type of compensation, so I assume that the other higher end systems do. Not sure if SDS does. FYI, the Holley system should be considered on the lower end of the scale, not on par with DTA or Autronic, but it is cheaper or at least comparable to SDS and has more features. The thing is you need to use GM sensors. The system has come a ways since its initial version.

_Quote, originally posted by *16vracer* »_Couple questions about SDS and others.
Does SDS compensate automatically for changes in weather, ie humidity, tuning it in one locale and then say driving up into the mountains etc.
Does any system allow for you to have a setting for pump gas and another for race gas, without having to go in and change all the values?


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_oh boy
now we are going to start a Stand Alone War?I Had SDS and there is no denying it....you WILL NEVER GET full control like 034/DTM/Haltech and whatever else.The system is good for starters but its not where i want to be again.

No offense dude, but you are full of isht. When you were post whoring on OVD it seemed like you had no clue. Now you are doing you Audi, a 16V project, and searching for that elusive OEM look short intake runner...because OEM is "where its at". Whatever happened to that SDS you were set to buy off me at Christmas of 2003? Somehow you got a system, and got tired of it in 6 months? Especially since your car is in Barbados where you live?
Whatever


----------



## Blak Golf (Sep 10, 2003)

burnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, sorry i just like seing people get bashed for putting down sds, noone here is saying its the best far from that but it works and some of us like it








BURNNNNNNNN


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Blak Golf)*

Honest to god man(B4S),not to be a hater,but I was thinking the same thing................I really wondered if this guy has a turbo car at all........I think he(wIZARD) is just talking out his arse,which is OK.......but don't lie about your experiences.........yu are right.......what the hell is a "OEM performance "VW manifold supposed to look like?..........Wizard,post a pic of your car,and with the SDS.....I would like to see if you really even have a turbo SDS car...........or whatever







must be a compulsive liar or something.........














"XDavid" anyone? Remember,the guy with the 11.4 1.8T trapping 124mph?







why do guys have to post Bullsh*t?







Just "keeping it real" my nigzz oh yeah and the 500hp 8V Greek manifolds,and numerous guys making up timeslips,and "corrected"







1/4 mile times.........it's like reading European Car mag or something............










_Modified by Holy Piston at 6:16 AM 7-2-2004_


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

B4S>wizard=own3d


----------



## VW blk Jetta3 (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: (Blak Golf)*

got mine with coils,3 bar map and intake and water sensor with backlit lcd for a grand http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif u cant beat that!!! god bless StevenT


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
No offense dude, *but you are full of isht*. When you were post whoring on OVD it seemed like you had no clue. Now you are doing you Audi, a 16V project, and searching for that elusive OEM look short intake runner...because OEM is "where its at". Whatever happened to that SDS you were set to buy off me at Christmas of 2003? Somehow you got a system, and got tired of it in 6 months? Especially since your car is in Barbados where you live?
Whatever

Right....everyone is Full of **** to you BS.You think your words are like gold....everyone has no clue to you.I wanted to see how much bull**** you could tell me about SDS.By the way....the only knowledgeable guy i could honestly say that is on the OVD forums is Kompressor Kanada.That guy cuts through all the red tape and gets straight to the point,excellent at relaying messages and making info simple enough for everyone to read.Remeber the Digifant I/II debate?
Look i am going to be Frank,not everyone is born a doctor or an engineer.Sometimes things need to be broken done for others to understand.If you can install a car Radio,you can install SDS.
Umm by the way.....the OEM look short intake is being done in California.I prefer to spend the extra $$$ to have it done out there than listen to the bickering and the oh so ever "impossibility of my project".By the way....i purchased a 034efi Stage Ic.I was not about to pay $1600 for a System that has less buttons than my cell phone.
p.s. You dont know anything about what i have and what i am Doing.I could have 10 Audi's and building 25 engines,thats of no concern to you because your not reaching into your pocket and pulling out $5 to give me.Your just byist to anything anyone says about SDS because you are the agent and all that.By the way....just so your mind is at ease.I had SDS in an 87 converted 20V starlet.It was after everyone called bull**** on that one ,that i stopped posting.
The car in question is viewable here:
http://www.bajanboost.com/classdetail.php?id=4
The owner got so pissed off at the limitations of SDS that i transplanted back the original Harness and ECU and the car is now up for sale.AND YES,THAT IS/WAS THE WORLDS FIRST 20V IN A STARLET







finished in March 2002.
Look i am not going to argue about how Good or Bad SDS is.The guy allready made up his mind and is going with DTM from Eurospeed.The last thing Holy Piston that i wanted to start was an SDS hating club against me.Now thanks to BS,this has been accomplished.
I DO NOT HATE SDS....GET THAT STRAIGHT,I JUST THINK 034EFI WILL GIVE ME MORE OPTIONS FOR TUNING!SO LET THE WIZARD BASHING END!
OK!?















By the way .....great job of hanging out the dirty laundry on a PUBLIC Forum.My Personal Life and what i plan to do is none of your buisness man....WTF?







This could have been resolved in a Private Message.And to think i brought the Quad TB's up here for you.








Hope this ends here Chad....have a nice day http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 



_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 2:31 AM 7-2-2004_


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_I was not about to pay $1600 for a System that has less buttons than my cell phone.

I don't doubt you have had or SDS or not because you are right...it's your life and I couldn't care two $hits about it but why would you ask so many questions about our SDS systems if you have tuned it already and especially on such a cool car like that starlet(bad ass I must say)
That comment you made above is kinda ignorant. just because it doesn't have as many buttons doesn't mean it's not worth it. 
I'm glad you found something you liked though(034efi), I'm going to stick with my gameboy because EVERYBODY knows game boy is so damn cool








Jason


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

This has NOTHING to do with your choice of stand alone....Because I personally think you are post whoring to "talk" abut things you haven't even done... Where are the pics of yur "16V turbo with SDS"?All I see is a pic of some crappy $1100.00 car........ this just backs up more that YOU are lying,quit while yu are ahead,and keep reading and learning,not trying to fool everybody with your lies.............I don't think everybody is full of it,I just want peeps to keep it real and don't post phony crap in a tech forum.....














Build SOMETHING first,then say how crappy it was....you never installed any SDS or ANY stand -alone in ANYthing........










_Modified by Holy Piston at 9:06 AM 7-2-2004_


----------



## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Everyone needs to chill out!
I'll relate my experiences with standalone (which aren't many, but might be insightful). It is a big decision, and I'll go through the process I went through, why I like certain systems and dislike others. Hopefully it helps guide someone through the decision. Remember: any of them are a better choice than a custom chipset/FMU if you are serious about performance/driveability and aren't afraid of some wiring and the tuning work.
And here we go with the yacking...
My roommate has SDS on his 280z which has been run both N/A and turbo. He doesn't let anyone else drive it, so I'm the programming b!tch while we're driving. It's easy to use, doesn't need a laptop (which is good and bad) and has worked pretty well. I like that it doesn't need a laptop, because A)you don't need to buy one if you don't have one, B)you can keep the controller in the car at all times if you need to make an adjustment, and C)you'll never run out of battery power like you might on the laptop.
I don't like the controller because it doesnt' allow you to look at an entire map. It is less intuitive for me to look at a series of numbers than it is to look at a 3D graph. It's also more work and time to scroll through the menus (until you get used to them) on the SDS. Lastly, I prefer a laptop because it allows you to store multiple engine setups and load them on command. Do I want to run the same setup/maps for race gas as street gas? No! With any laptop-based system (at least as far as I know) you can load these on command without changing mutliple values and reading your logs out of a notebook or whatever. Granted, the SDS I have worked with was the last generation, but AFAIK the new generation doesn't have this feature either. How about datalogging? Usually pretty easy on a laptop-based system, but not possible on SDS (at least on the older model I have experience with). What else is SDS lacking? Well it should have an ISV control IMO, and this older model has occasional RPM-error when it switches off the fast-idle solenoid (no replacement for an ISV, IMO).
I am friend with the developer/producer of 034EFI, have met him twice in person in CA (he definetly knows his stuff), and I think it is a very competitive system - on par with Autronic, DTA, and many others. While I don't know much about its use on VR6 motors, it is very popular for Audis and has basically everything I could imagine I need in an engine management package. I'll be using one on my next Audi project, probably a stage IIc because I think I'll want that launch control.
My current standalone project involves TEC3. Why TEC3 over 034? Well, at the time I bought it, 034EFI was still under development for things like direct-fire ignition and sequential ignition, and no projected date for direct fire ignition (absolutely required as I am running an Audi motor that was equipped with coil packs from the factory). I needed DIS, and USA tech support. Plus, it used a lot of my factory sensors, including Intake Air Temp, Crank Trigger, TPS, and Knock. If I could get out of TEC3 for close to what I paid for it, I probably would and I'd get an 034EFI for 2/3 the price. 034 has more features than TEC3 does such as traction/launch control and anti-lag (which can be rigged on the TEC3 but it is not publicly advertised). I'll admit there are a lot of features I probably won't touch, like the air-intake-temp-dependant fuel enrichment curve. It comes preset and it's probably OK as is, but I CAN change it if I want/need to.
One thing to look at is the general-purpose outputs (GPOs) - sure they might not sound like you need them, but maybe you come up with a use for them later. As I understand it, SDS is purchased with the options you choose to install, then if you need something more, you have to send it back. Sounds good - you don't pay for anything you don't want. But unless you have a lot of experience (I don't) then you might not know 100% of what you want from your ECU; there are even things that you might not have known it could do. TEC3 and the upper-end 034EFI systems come with 4 GPOs and I am using all of them: A)Fan switch B)disengage A/C compressor clutch C)trigger variable-geometry intake plenum and D)well I didn't really have a use for it so I will either use it to work as a secondary fan switch (I have two separate radiator fans) or if that proves impractical, just to trigger a shift light. The point is that even though I really only needed 3, I found a convenient use for the fourth. Other examples I can think of you might find useful - triggering water or alcohol injection, nitrous-ignition retard/enable switch, secondary fuel pump...and well anything you can think of that you would want to switch on and off dependant on engine conditions like MAP value, rpm, coolant temp, etc. GPOs with table output are programmable to operate a boost control solenoid or additional injectors even.
A note on software - in my searches and research on standalone EMS, I chose to test the software for each one and see how intuitive it was to me and how quickly I adjusted to it. So far my top three go: 1)TEC3, 2)Megasquirt, and 3)034EFI. Quite simply, the TEC3 is the easiest to program and is something that anyone with Windows can just jump right into. It does not sacrifice functionality for user-friendliness either. Megasquirt is drastically different from TEC3 - it is simplified to the bare bones that you need to run a car and I think really only has 3 screens (at least in the control version I was looking at). Totally simple, easy to use, and powerful enough to extract serious performance - you just don't get the niceties you get from other systems. Lastly - 034EFI - requires a bit more tech understanding, but some things are easier to understand. For instance the GPOs on TEC3 are labeled like "fan thermo control", "Intake Runner Control" and such, then it asks you to input certain values which control these like coolant temp (fan control) or MAP/RPM values (intake runner). In 034EFI, these are laid out by what parameters you want to control the output. For instance they says "coolant temp/MAP value", "MAP value/RPM" and such, and they have more options available for operating GPOs. 
YET ANOTHER thing to consider is enthusiast support - not necessarily how many die-hard fans there are who will stand behind their system to the death (who seem to be abound in this thread), but more how many people have experience which might help you if there are problems. In the VW crowd, the SDS folks have a lot of engine-specific experience. For instance, there are probably 20-30 guys here with 16v turbos with SDS, 20-30 VR6t guys with SDS, and a similar number of 8vt guys with SDS. They will be able to help you out with running issues, install problems, and tips and tricks for tuning on certain motors. This is a big thing for some people, especially if you are new to the standalone EMS game. 
In the 034EFI crowd, there is an internet forum dedicated to install and tech info on 034 where the developer frequently posts and answers questions. Even better is that there are many knowledgeable people who often answer first. However! There are fewer people with engine-specific knowledge, but many very very knowledgeable people who can tackle any question in the general sense. What I mean - 16vt-SDS users might tell you to buy the crank trigger mount kit from Ross Machine (I think they are the guys?). 034EFI owners can walk you through making one for any motor. 
Megasquirt has a similar following - lots of newgroups and public forums and also open-source development. Regular users are often developing updates and new revisions that better the system for everyone else. In this respect, it is to EMS what Unix is to operating systems. Again - not as many people who have used it for specific VW installs, but lots of experienced help is available.
And last is my case with TEC3....well no one buys TEC3. I'm on my own. It's easy to use, and to be honest, I don't need a lot of help. When I do, I ask the guys in the 034EFI forum, because the systems are so very similar that they steer me in the right direction when I need to. And after all, we are all enthusiasts and we care more about the end result than the brand-name we used to get there.


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (billzcat1)*

Very good write-up.........and I agree with you,I am more of a "motor man",and I do build all my own stuff,so I don't put a lot of emphasis on techno-gadgets........I just know that SDS helped me get from 16's to 12 sec. time slips,and never gave one problem.........but "da Wizard" is irritating me because he speaks as if he has first hand experience(with SDS),and is obviously passing on false info and getting all uptight when he is







EXPOSED!!







this sh*t ain't serious anyway,it is the same goddam crap for years now,just updated!!haha,lol







I don't sell SDS,but have helped sell dozens of systems for them! Party on Garth,Party on Wayne.........


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_SDS helped me get from 16's to 12 sec. time slips 

Sweet


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_what the hell is a "OEM performance "VW manifold supposed to look like?

Dude... it looks like this:
















(sorry, couldn't resist)


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Right....everyone is Full of **** to you BS.You think your words are like gold....everyone has no clue to you.I wanted to see how much bull**** you could tell me about SDS.By the way....the only knowledgeable guy i could honestly say that is on the OVD forums is Kompressor Kanada.That guy cuts through all the red tape and gets straight to the point,excellent at relaying messages and making info simple enough for everyone to read.Remeber the Digifant I/II debate?
Look i am going to be Frank,not everyone is born a doctor or an engineer.Sometimes things need to be broken done for others to understand.If you can install a car Radio,you can install SDS.
Umm by the way.....the OEM look short intake is being done in California.I prefer to spend the extra $$$ to have it done out there than listen to the bickering and the oh so ever "impossibility of my project".By the way....i purchased a 034efi Stage Ic.I was not about to pay $1600 for a System that has less buttons than my cell phone.
p.s. You dont know anything about what i have and what i am Doing.I could have 10 Audi's and building 25 engines,thats of no concern to you because your not reaching into your pocket and pulling out $5 to give me.Your just byist to anything anyone says about SDS because you are the agent and all that.By the way....just so your mind is at ease.I had SDS in an 87 converted 20V starlet.It was after everyone called bull**** on that one ,that i stopped posting.
The car in question is viewable here:
http://www.bajanboost.com/classdetail.php?id=4
The owner got so pissed off at the limitations of SDS that i transplanted back the original Harness and ECU and the car is now up for sale.AND YES,THAT IS/WAS THE WORLDS FIRST 20V IN A STARLET







finished in March 2002.
Look i am not going to argue about how Good or Bad SDS is.The guy allready made up his mind and is going with DTM from Eurospeed.The last thing Holy Piston that i wanted to start was an SDS hating club against me.Now thanks to BS,this has been accomplished.
I DO NOT HATE SDS....GET THAT STRAIGHT,I JUST THINK 034EFI WILL GIVE ME MORE OPTIONS FOR TUNING!SO LET THE WIZARD BASHING END!
OK!?















By the way .....great job of hanging out the dirty laundry on a PUBLIC Forum.My Personal Life and what i plan to do is none of your buisness man....WTF?







This could have been resolved in a Private Message.And to think i brought the Quad TB's up here for you.








Hope this ends here Chad....have a nice day http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 2:31 AM 7-2-2004_

Whatever, check your IM's. No more stress. I've explained myself quite clearly IM wise.
As for your thoughts that I was slagging anything non-SDS, if you read my post I am not even close to that. I love SEM's, of all types. I've even been thinking of trying a Haltech next year. SDS is not the be-all-end-all of standalones, but it sure is friggin simple to use and the results are just as good as the ones with the bells and whistles attached. The only reason I would even consider switching is the datalogging options of the other systems. If I could find a way to log my SDS, then I'd stick with it...but nope, I am not that smart







.


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Angular)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Angular* »_
Dude... it looks like this:

that bungy cord doesn't look to OEM though...well it is a VW...it just might be


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_Very good write-up.........and I agree with you,I am more of a "motor man",and I do build all my own stuff,so I don't put a lot of emphasis on techno-gadgets........I just know that SDS helped me get from 16's to 12 sec. time slips,and never gave one problem.........but "da Wizard" is irritating me because he speaks as if he has first hand experience(with SDS),and is obviously passing on false info and getting all uptight when he is







EXPOSED!!







this sh*t ain't serious anyway,it is the same goddam crap for years now,just updated!!haha,lol







I don't sell SDS,but have helped sell dozens of systems for them! Party on Garth,Party on Wayne.........































p.s. Holy Piston.....did you not read where i said i did have first hand experience with it?Exposed my big toe....do you think this bothers me whether you think i lie or tell the truth?Probability of us meeting is 1 in 6Billion.







.Reality check guys.....this is a forum,if you guys dont agree with what someone is saying,it doesnt mean there lieing and your teling the truth.
I guess thats my $0.02...can i have back some change please?


_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 1:58 PM 7-2-2004_


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Angular........you know I've always admired your car.......and in that 16V manifold post you and ZeeuwVW have the same manny,and posted it,and Wizared-man was still "not satisfied" that it was "OEM" enough........that's what I am talking about...so now a "OEM" one is being "made" in CA..........OK














As for "logging".........I'll show you guys some "logs"...........OOOOPs! sorry I just flushed them down the toilet.........I'll do some more "logging" later and try to post a pic!

















_Modified by Holy Piston at 7:54 PM 7-2-2004_


----------



## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_Angular........you know I've always admired your car.......and in that 16V manifold post you and ZeeuwVW have the same manny,and posted it,and Wizared-man was still "not satisfied" that it was "OEM" enough........that's what I am talking about...so now a "OEM" one is being "made" in CA..........OK














As for "logging".........I'll show you guys some "logs"...........OOOOPs! sorry I just flushed them down the toilet.........I'll do some more "logging" later and try to post a pic!
















Hahahaha... yeah, I know... we've talked about it before and I gotta give ZeeuwVW credit for inspiring me to do the Audi 5 cyl 20VT (3B) manifold hack. It's all good... just thought I'd post-whore my engine bay picture one more time!








So what exactly is the Wiz having made?


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Angular)*

Well,out of the 10,000 manifolds peeps posted in that 4 page thread,NOT ONE was "OEM performance" enough...so the claim is "now I'm getting one made in CA" maybe he found some guys in Tijuana that will make him a sand-cast "OEM performance manifold" for 200 bux.......I recommend the Greek manifold,it will give you 500hp you know


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_Well,out of the 10,000 manifolds peeps posted in that 4 page thread,NOT ONE was "OEM performance" enough...so the claim is *"now I'm getting one made in CA"* maybe he found some guys in Tijuana that will make him a sand-cast "OEM performance manifold" for 200 bux.......I recommend the Greek manifold,it will give you 500hp you know









hmmm...you just dont know where to quit?Where is the finger Icon?People like you piss me off.....if i want something to look original that is my buisness man.Unless your ****** grabbing a welding plant and making the thing for me i suggest you just bugger off.
Jesus christ....








If you realise i was the Author of the threads and i did like some of the products i saw.However for 8V i will be sticking with a KH chopped manifold and for 16V i will use either a chopped 3B or AAN manifold so you can keep your fire extinguisher manifold.I dont care if yours made 10 hp or 1000hp increase.Originality is what gets the magazine covers and articles....not being a follower.And that is my food for though.....
http://www.80tq.com/images/complete1.JPG
This is what i am looking to have as a finished product.Although this is inline 5 and mine is inline 4,it would be the same.Does that look as though it has been chopped or the VR6 TB came standard on inline 5 turbo manifolds?
By the way....about that $200Bux joke...i dont think anyone on this forum would pay $500 for a chopped Audi 10V turbo manifold.I may be nice...but i am not stupid.$120 did the job just fine....
Its so true...never argue with idiots as they will just bring you down to there level and beat you with experience.I Think all this arguing is useless....I may not have an online photo gallery where i can post up all the pictures of my projects,i gotta count on people to post pictures for me.This project has been going on for over a year and some.When i come out i know allready there will be haters and the usual average joe that says well instead of spending $900...you could have gone to home depot and bought so so and so.What i do with my time and money is my buisness.
is that all or you wish to continue?



_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 6:18 PM 7-2-2004_


----------



## scott66 (Jul 5, 2003)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

this was fun to read and my install was fun and it started on the first turn of the key, BTW.
i just thought i would post some pics of my own here
2L 16V on SDS (N/A)....soon to be on T3/T4E


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Originality is what gets the magazine covers and articles....not being a follower

[devils advocate]I would venture to say that the majority of poeple in this forum could not care less about getting coverage. Basically...hauling ass and taking names is what it's all about.[/devils advocate]
this post has gone to $hit.
Jason


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_
[devils advocate]I would venture to say that the majority of poeple in this forum could not care less about getting coverage. Basically...hauling ass and taking names is what it's all about.[/devils advocate]
*this post has gone to $hit.*
Jason

Yes...this occured at the end of Page 2..Sadly
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Wizard,so you are building a 8V,a 16V,and a Audi at the same time?














I might piss you off,but yu totally crack me up!







Thanks for the laughs! You are 19 years old and have the time and $$ to build 3 turbo cars? Must be nice!!!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*









nobody ever heard of 8V Audi's?They are called 80's buddy....








p.s. MikTip found out the hard way......want me to shame you as well?


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Oh please, take me to school in your 8V Audi!







you will have fun even keepingf that car running,let alone trying to turbo it,those Audi 80's and 90's were not the hot ticket for performance.........


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

Now the insults start flying... If 80/90s are not the "hot ticket" for performance, please tell me, why not? It's still a VW 8v, but the difference is that you can't buy as many bolt-ons because of the engine orientation. They aren't terribly heavy (a common Audi problem) - 2570 lbs and came equipped with CIS-Motronic, much like a 2.0L 16v, and much more reliable than say...Digi 1. 
Anyway, the car in question is getting a stand alone EFI system that has been proven dead reliable on numerous Audis. Where your "have fun trying to keep that car running" comment comes from I have no idea. Truth be told, I've seen more running issues from the previously mentioned SDS 280z than I have seen from any of the 034EFI installs which are so popular in the Audi world.
My vote is baseless accusation which adds nothing to the thread but shows you are less an enthusiast and more upset by people disagreeing with you. Check the thread buddy, it was you who started it. Wizza posted his opinion based on experience and you insult it time and time again. It's ok to disagree man. We all have different experiences with different things and they are all valid points to bring up when someone wants to know what people think about a product.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

Made a new thread as this was a Stand alone thread...not a debate about my Audi
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...d=113


_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 1:05 AM 7-4-2004_


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

hmmm...you posted the wrong link.
this is what you meant
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1476952
feeling like you have to redeem yourself huh


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

Right on man! I SAW the pics,and I retract my statements of doubting "da Wizard",I HONESTLY thought you were full of crap,you have to understand guys come and post such rediculous claims sometimes that it is easy top be speculative,and doubt peeps.......looks good,and I guess a Corrado isn't much better than a Audi 80 to turbo,so have fun,I wish you luck,and that will be quite a sleeper! I don't know of anyone boosting that car (8V Audi 80) If you tune it right,you will get some good hp,my 8V turbo was fun as hell and made great torque,just what yu want for a heavy 4 door car.....post pics when yu get the engine/turbo in!







I owe you 5 more beers later.....


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

I have just a few questions for ya Holy...
Have you ever personally used a system other than the SDS? You already showed how little you think of datalogging and most other features on other standalones, so I was just wondering what other systems you have used and what problems you have had with them.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

I' will be totally honest with you and say no........I am someone that is TOTALLY computer illiterate,so the last thing I want to do is learn how to program a system that is so complicated that I have to study it and become a total pro at that system.........I like the fact that with SDS you can be a "first timer" (which 99% of guys on here are) and get it running quickly and start tuning right away.And 99% of peeps,this will be their only system,so unless you have installed/configured/programmed/tuned a laptop system and did a few and got comfortable with it,you will certainly have a harder time the FIRST time,and usually the only time,you install one in your car.There is a guy on here named "twodubs",he's got a 1.8T Corrado,DTA,etc.....running mid 13's at 105-ish,I got a 16V Corrado running 12 sec. at 113-ish with SDS,so peeps are saying a laptop system will work better for me?If so tell me why!And I'll buy one!I have been on this board 3 years now,and read countless laptop system stuff,from bad ECU's to figuring out how to modify sensors,to all sorts of stuff,and most times SDS guys just ask for timing maps!
I have EMS stinger laptop nprogram downloaded on my laptop right now,and I don't need launch control,nitrous,rpm switching,soft-hard rev limiter,etc.,my car IS a streetcar by the way.......unless EVERYBODY on this board is building a RACECAR,which I didn't know.........










_Modified by Holy Piston at 7:14 PM 7-4-2004_


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## larryvw (Aug 20, 2002)

*Re: Time for Stand-Alone! (TurboABA)*

give eurospeed a call 
in T.O ask for Jack 
they carry DTA 














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
check there web site!!!!!!!

http://www.eurospeed.ca


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## TurboABA (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Time for Stand-Alone! (larryvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *larryvw* »_give eurospeed a call 
in T.O ask for Jack 
they carry DTA 














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
check there web site!!!!!!!

http://www.eurospeed.ca

Thanks.... already went there a couple of times and bought it last friday! Now I need to get around to putting it in!


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

I hate to say it because it sounds to cliche and trite... but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 
I honestly don't see how that tiny little display on the SDS can make it any easier to use or tune with. I like to see as much real time data on screen as possible when tuning. There's also a 3D wire graph of the main fuel map and ignition map which really helps illustrate what your fuel curves look like and visually spot any irregularities. DTA and Autronic both have auto tune or semi-auto tune features where input from a O2 sensor can be used to make corrections to the fuel map based on your desired AFR.
So sure, there's a little bit of a learning curve, but clearly a whole lot of cool stuff that will save time and yield better results in the long run (and not just tuning for WOT but also driveability and fuel mileage).
Anyway, I'm not saying you need anything other than what you got. But I don't want you to sell yourself short or think laptop based systems are only for the hardcore geeks.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_I' will be totally honest with you and say no........I am someone that is TOTALLY computer illiterate,so the last thing I want to do is learn how to program a system that is so complicated that I have to study it and become a total pro at that system.........I like the fact that with SDS you can be a "first timer" (which 99% of guys on here are) and get it running quickly and start tuning right away.And 99% of peeps,this will be their only system,so unless you have installed/configured/programmed/tuned a laptop system and did a few and got comfortable with it,you will certainly have a harder time the FIRST time,and usually the only time,you install one in your car.There is a guy on here named "twodubs",he's got a 1.8T Corrado,DTA,etc.....running mid 13's at 105-ish,I got a 16V Corrado running 12 sec. at 113-ish with SDS,so peeps are saying a laptop system will work better for me?If so tell me why!And I'll buy one!I have been on this board 3 years now,and read countless laptop system stuff,from bad ECU's to figuring out how to modify sensors,to all sorts of stuff,and most times SDS guys just ask for timing maps!
I have EMS stinger laptop nprogram downloaded on my laptop right now,and I don't need launch control,nitrous,rpm switching,soft-hard rev limiter,etc.,my car IS a streetcar by the way.......unless EVERYBODY on this board is building a RACECAR,which I didn't know.........









_Modified by Holy Piston at 7:14 PM 7-4-2004_

Thats cool. I just wonder if you tried one of the standalones you always make out to be so complicated if you would still think they are.
What is it about modding sensors that has to be done for other standalones that does not have to be done with an SDS? The sensors I see in the SDS pictures for ACT and ECT and MAP look the same as the GM sensors used by almost every other standalone out there. About all that is left off the top of my head is crank triggers, which the SDS uses flying magnets(which sometimes literally do fly, LOL), and every standalone I know of could use that same trigger system.
If there is anything complicated about the system I run, I have yet to find out what it is. My timing maps are MAP vs timing in degrees, vs RPM. My fuel maps are MAP vs injection time in milliseconds vs RPM. How much more straight forward can you get? Then it has percentage corrections for ECT, ACT and battery voltage on a different map. Basically it has say, ECT running horizontally on a graph and when you move the bars up and down for the amount you want to add or subtract fuel in % for each location. The numbers on an SDS fuel screen make no sense to me. What unit is say 45 on a SDS fuel map? Duty cycle? VE? huh?
You might not need nitrous control, you might not care if the ECU can control the fan, you may not care that for another 150 dollars you could have onboard logging of every function which makes tuning the car ALONE much easier, you may not see the benefit of being able to view the shape of your fuel curve without graph paper. But many people do, and before you assume that all they want to do is have a vehicle that can move under its own power, you may want to clarify. 
I know if I was a total newb and somebody talked me into an SDS for say, a 16VT that I was working on and I found out later I could have had alot more features for not much more money, I would be kinda peeved. Or if did that and later bought a Vr6 as a second car, and found I could have used another unit that cost barely anymore money on the VR6 as well as a Turbo 16V with the only thing needed as a wiring harness and a minute of time to upload the map, I would be pissed.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

I would be pretty peeved if I bought into all that hype of how laptop systems are "so much better" and a guy with SDS is going quicker/faster than me...............because SDS is so inferior,how can that be,that someone can have great results with it?







....


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

Holy piston - you don't have to be so stalwart in your defense of SDS. No one here is disputing your results or the excellent experience you have had. The fact is that any standalone system should perform within say...2% (an arbitrary number I picked) of any other when they are properly tuned.
You've got good results with your SDS. Congrats. That doesn't mean its the only way. So your car is faster than some other guy with DTA. Who cares? Was his setup exactly the same? Same turbo, same engine, same intercooler and same boost level? Does his car weigh the same and use the same tires, transmission and suspension? Just because it is slower doesn't mean the standalone EMS he used is inferior. I am sure you know there are many more factors to producing power or running quick ETs than just your choice of standalone. I'm sure your Corrado isn't the fastest 16vt on Earth, but do the people who go faster see the need to tell you the SDS is inferior?
How can you say that laptop systems are overhyped? Real world users have provided input here. Yes, I like the intuitive nature of 3D fuel and timing maps. Not only do they look cool, but they actually provide function! For me, it is much easier to look at this graph than look at a series of numbers on an LCD screen. For me, it is easier to datalog a run and watch your AFR as is corresponds to various RPM, load, and TPS values. For me, it is easier to use a wideband and Auto-tune or at least datalog with wideband mode. Sure, you can do it just fine with the SDS mixture meter while you are driving, but it's kind of dangerous to not be paying attention to the road.
I like having an idle stabilizer valve. I like having general purpose outputs to switch the fan, a/c, variable intake, and whatever else I want. I like having lambda correction for whatever AFR I set at whatever rpm/load condition I want. I like these features, but the car doesn't need them to run. I like having multi-stage rev limiters and switchable speed limiters (valet mode). I like being able to load a race gas setting with 2 clicks of the mouse (or pointer thingy on my crappy $200 laptop)
I like being able to readily replace my MAP sensor if I feel the need for more boost. SDS has to be sent back to have new MAP circuitry installed. I like using my stock crank trigger. These things really don't affect peak power, but they do make installation easier. I also like that the TEC3 or 034EFI (and many others) don't need modification to run on any engine type. The same TEC3 will run 1-4,6,8 cylinder applications just by using the appropriate number of coils and changing one number in a menu. 034EFI will run basically any number of cylinders you want. You might not care about that, but someone else might, and I know of a few Audi folks who have gone from 5-cyl to 8-cyl applications using the same 034EFI unit. Wow, all of a sudden all that money they wasted buying a standalone wasn't such a waste. They would have had to buy 2 SDS's for a project like that...if SDS would have even run a 5-cyl. 
SDS is less advanced than most laptop based systems, but that doesn't mean you can't have excellent results with it. People still get excellent results from carburetors too, and that's stone age technology compared to programmable EFI. They still perform the same function! There are obviously a lot of features in laptop systems that you don't need to make maximum hp. Just because you don't need them doesn't mean they aren't nice to have. Things like sequential injection for instance - improves emissions but doesn't really affect power. You don't use datalogging. So what? Lots of people do and it makes it easier for some people to tune with. 
You want some humbling info on standalones? A friend of mine in Cali runs megaquirt on his 2.2L 10vt quantum syncro wagon. At 6psi it ran a 13.8, at 15psi it ran a 12.8 at 112. The car has never been dyno'd and has never seen a wideband O2 sensor. He just plugged in numbers that made the car run well, then richened them up everywhere with fantastic results. Considering he spent under $200 on the Megasquirt, it sure makes SDS look like a bad deal. The point is you can get great results with ANY system, and which you choose should be based on what fits your budget the best, what features you want, and which software you prefer. ALL are great upgrades from stock management (on most cars).


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (billzcat1)*

I NEVER said SDS is the ONLY way,I am rebutting the remarks that it is "inferior"and doesn't work well............ and BTW I do not believe those Quantum times,I would have to see a time slip to even believe that ........everybody "has a friend" that did this or that........I don't believe those comments.


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

I can tell you one thing about those Quantum Syncro wagons... they have insanely low gear ratios. I owned one for a while and that thing turned more RPMs in 5th gear than my Scirocco's stock gearbox. That was a key reason I sold it, actually. Not sure what they weigh but it's certainly possible that with boost, AWD, and close gearing it could sprint the 1/4 mi faster than you might otherwise guess.


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (Angular)*

I asked him for time slips. I used to have the video on my hard drive of the 13.8 run and he even showed me the datalogs proving his peak boost was only 6psi. He is not the usual internet bull**** artist. That was a long time ago. I'll get as much info as I can next time I chat with him. TTYL


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_I NEVER said SDS is the ONLY way,I am rebutting the remarks that it is "inferior"and doesn't work well............ *and BTW I do not believe those Quantum times*,I would have to see a time slip to even believe that ........everybody "has a friend" that did this or that........I don't believe those comments.

Ok cool...Richard get Mike to host his video.
Dude this Quantam is the original sleeper,trust me on that


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_I NEVER said SDS is the ONLY way,I am rebutting the remarks that it is "inferior"and doesn't work well............ 

Oh please. Who said the SDS doesnt work? I see you say people have problems with other standalone sensors, as if the SDS will cure that when it uses the same sensors though.
You start screaming every time someone says there just might be an easier to use system out there. You talk smack about how useless onboard datalogging is. I don't know, I find it pretty damn convenient to be able to hit enter on my lap top then do a pass on the car, come to a stop, look at the log, and make the appropriate adjustment from one package. If you always have someone with you to tune, datalogging isnt as important(as a tuning feature), but it sure helps when you don't.
Just about all my friends that use standalones run the datalogging at the track. Why? It helps solve problems if they arise. Im not talking about just 13 second cars either, one is running [email protected] in a 4 cylinder focus wagon with all steel body and non tube framed.
A time slip isnt the only measure of how good a system is, especially when the setups vary so much. I mean hell you can take two identical cars according to a spec sheet and have them perform radically different. Depends on the tuning, attention to mechanical detail, and driver skill..Scientifically speaking comparing timeslips is worthless.
But like I said, the time slip is only part of the equation. Hell, Grumpy Jenkins ran low 10s, high 9s in a 8V 2.0L Pinto back in the 70s! Does that mean we should all switch over to running carburetors because they are better? Hey, its faster than your SDS with 8 less valves....
You know what comparison I would be really interested to see? Lets take two cars that are the same, but neither of us is familiar with at all. I mean radically different, where you can't just throw in numbers into the SDS off the top of your head. Something you would have to tune from scratch, say a sequentially injected turbo big block running 15psi, 160lb low impedence injectors, etc.
You, by yourself, no dyno. Me, by myself no dyno. You on an SDS with an LM1 only(no laptop or desktop). Me with a Haltech unit and LM1, using only my Haltech programmer software. I wonder who could get it to have smooth idle, good snap throttle response, 14.4-14.9 AF under cruise conditions with 11 or 12:1AF under WOT, starts on first fire, doesnt run excessive EGT, doesn't detonate, etc.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

Boosted one,I have already beaten yur challenge,my car weighs atleast 5-600lbs heavier than yours,no dyno time,and is faster and quicker than your car......and funny thing is it is not even built for drag racing,it is built to be a fun street car,like most are trying to build here.
Chris Green is reunning 10.3 with his SDS car,and others are running 8 sec. cars with it,so I don't accept the "elitest attitude" of peeps that think they are so "high tech" that they are above SDS and think that launch control will give them a 9 sec. time slip. 
Remember I don't build race cars,these are street cars with excellent drivability and RELIABILITY,working on 25,000 miles on my system alone. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TurboSyncro (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_I NEVER said SDS is the ONLY way,I am rebutting the remarks that it is "inferior"and doesn't work well............ and BTW I do not believe those Quantum times,I would have to see a time slip to even believe that ........everybody "has a friend" that did this or that........I don't believe those comments.

Oh, I might as well jump in here, what the heck.
A couple things.
The 6psi run was 13.9 @ 98mph. There's a vid of one of the many passes I've made at....
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~go...e.AVI
It takes exactly 13 seconds from the time the video starts until the trap lights pop up with my time, and you'll notice it starts 15 feet from the starting line. And yes, we both redlighted








The car DID run those times, I have the timeslips around here . It doesn't really matter if you believe it or not, I didn't build the car to impress some wanker on the internet.
Race weight with me in the car is about 3200 lbs.
That should answer all the questions....
And finally, here's my take on fool injection and "stand-alone dude! omg wtf?!?!" as the ricers at Palmdale (where I race) always say when they see the laptop.
Say a motor is at XXXX RPM and YYY Manifold pressure. To get an AFR of 12.5:1 (for example) you need a fuel injector pulsewidth of ZZ.Zms. Any EFI controller will open the injector for ZZ.Zms as well as another. SDS, 034, AEM, Motec, Haltech, Megasquirt, Electromotive etc. They'll all open the injector the same length of time if the tuning is correct. The basic operation of them is all identical. The differences between those 7 systems (and all the rest) are simply software, support and "accessory" related (things like boost control etc.) Saying one system will make the car run "better" than another is simply silly. Any of them will open the injectors for 13ms! This whole debate is a bit silly, since it's all a matter of personal prefrence. A car propperly tuned with SDS that runs 12.9 in the quarter mile, should run 12.9 in the quarter mile with a Megasquirt or Haltech controlling the fuel, as long as the tuning is the same. I personally prefer the extra 700 bucks in my wallet that I have because of the Megasquirt.
That's all I have to say about that.
Mike
'88 QSWt


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

you guys sound like a bunch of girls.
Quit whinning so damn much. Whatever driver X spends on his standalone he/she is going to believe they made the best pick.
I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet.








Jason
p.s. I have SDS 4f for the record


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

You understand my point then......they ALL do the same thing....BTW ,post those [email protected] slips.........I want to see em'.....and my SDS car is only 2wd,weighs almost the same and is 4 valves and one cylinder short of yours,and is faster, look at my sig......







I don't care about the 13.9 runs,I want to see the 12.8 @111 slips for what your boy is claiming.....Nice times BTW.........


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_You understand my point then......they ALL do the same thing....BTW ,post those [email protected] slips.........I want to see em'.....and my SDS car is only 2wd,weighs almost the same and is* 4 valves* and one cylinder short of yours,and is faster, look at my sig......







I don't care about the 13.9 runs,I want to see the 12.8 @111 slips for what your boy is claiming.....Nice times BTW.........

unless your running a 6V VW , i dont see how this is possible.
Mike runs a 10V


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (TurboSyncro)*

I don't know how we even got to the point of arguing "my car is fast/faster with brand X of standalone engine management". Sorry to repeat myself, but... tuning at full throttle is fairly easy and, like you said, any decent engine management system will do the job. Getting the OTHER 90% of the fuel map right takes far more time and to me that's where the data logging and "auto tune" type features come in handy.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Angular, there is only one person arguing over and over again that time slips mean everything.
But you are 100% correct.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_Boosted one,I have already beaten yur challenge,my car weighs atleast 5-600lbs heavier than yours,no dyno time,and is faster and quicker than your car......and funny thing is it is not even built for drag racing,it is built to be a fun street car,like most are trying to build here.

Huh? You beat me on my challenge? What you posted has nothing to do with my "challenge", not that it could ever actually happen. But there is no way you are going to tell me you could take an SDS on a totally different combo than everything else you ever worked with, and tune it in 2 hours not knowing where to even begin when it comes to maps, doing it by yourself, without using some sort of logging while meeting all of the requirements I have stated.
Then again, without any datalogging you really don't know how stable the a/f curve is of the cars you have tuned.
So your car is 5-600lbs heavier than mine and faster than mine? Wow, how did you come to that conclusion? Do you know something about how fast my car is that I don't? Mine hasnt been to the track in over 2 years, and when it was there it had a totally different head design(was counterflow, now crossflow), on different management(was Ford EEC-IV injection, now Haltech). A fully loaded Rado weighs 600lbs more than a fully loaded Golf II? I didnt know a Rado was a 3000lb car.
But I would hope your car is faster. You got a bigger engine, 8 more valves, and SDS(LOL), and you give a damn how fast it goes at the track so you optimize the car for the track when you get there. When I did take my GTI to the track, it ran EXACTLY how it does on the street. No higher boost, no race gas, no removing seats, no bolting on slicks in the front and skinnies on the back, no playing with the coilovers or damping settings, no raising pressure in the back tires while dropping the pressure in the front. Hell, I ran on 3/4 tank of gas which on a GII is like 13 gallons.
In case you got my car mixed up with someone elses, it doesnt get more loaded than mine without a sunroof or power recaros. I still have full AC, power steering pump, full interior(with 2 layers of sound deadening in from the back seat forward), power windows, broken power locks, full dash with kneebar, etc blah blah blah...


_Modified by BoostedOne at 3:22 PM 7-7-2004_


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

Bro you are talking to the king of full interiors







Try FULLY LOADED Corrado,a "little" bit heavier than your A2







,and if you didn't know,some C's came with; full leather,pwr.sunroof,pwr.windows,AC.......like mine.I am too lazy to pull out evap and heater core,and compressor is still here as are all seats and all panels.You want to tell me that Haltech is so much better,then how come you only give me excuses when I can show you time slips....and yes,I can get a SDS car running in under 2 hours easily,remember,I am not a "rocket scientist",or"Brainiac" ,and if I can do it,then most peeps can.............I will tell you how that VR runs after we get a new WG spring,and I will tell you how my car does this year with better turbo and manifold,and you get your car back at the track "after not running for 2 years",and we will see if YOU can tune that Haltech better than I can get these cars going... .I am not arguing with you,just presenting the facts,how I know it.Hows my "challenge"....I know there are 8 sec.Haltech guys,and there are 8 sec SDS guys.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Ok man, you win. What can I say? I have 5 cars, 4 of them projects, not including the A3 Jetta parts car that is going to be stripped and have just about every conceivable peice stuck in my 92. 
Lemme break it down a bit. Once again, I am not as infatuated with what I can run the 1/4 in a VW as you are. I built the car to be a fun street car, nothing else. If I can get the car to run 13s on my street rubber(street rubber with a treadwear number greater than 000), I would be happy. Its not that I have short sighted goals, its just that I dont want the breakage hassles or the expense of a 12 or 11 second drivetrain. 
The car that I do care about going to the track in would take your Rado and eat it for lunch. Its a Merkur with a stock floor backhalf. This one hasn't gotten to the track because I squashed a rod, but the last one I had ran [email protected] on street tires. This car runs the Haltech(as opposed to stock Ford injection like the last one), runs 5psi more boost(31psi vs 26), same tranny but now with a brake, and some other things you don't really care about. Why isnt it running? Because I could easily dump 2500 into building the engine again, then I have to do a cage, and redo the fuel system before I expect it to be half reliable. Once all thats done, hello low 11s, high 10s. I just dont have the money to dump into that right now because I am saving it to build my house in the next few months. The money on the VW stuff is childs play compared to that, but goin fast costs money.
Anyhow, why bring up the Merkur? Simply to point out I am not making excuses on why my GTI can't smoke your Rado, why I don't spend every Friday night at the track, and why Im not going to turn my car into a streetable but even more finicky POS just to prove a point to some internet brawler. Not like I'd even have anything to gain out of it.
Sorry, but a Peloquin diff and a set of drag radials or slicks is not in my near future on the GTI, and thats what it would take.


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Actually let me just ask you one simple question. Are you meaning to tell me if I pull off my Haltech and simply thow on an SDS, my car will run 12.80s without changing ANYTHING else?


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

I guess peeps can figure it out for themselves......if they want a reliable car that can be EASY to tune,handle daily driving and be respectable at the track,or if they want excuses.........







not laughing at you,just at the comedy this has become.Really man,I'm no turbo expert,I barely have over 2 years under my belt boosting cars,but in that time have done well with the SDS,my customers like it and so do I,hell,their cars are more reliable than stock VW's ,example.............VW MAF,coolant temp sensors,coil packs anybody??? SDS builds them better than the Germans/Mexicans/ do!


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## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

I already said it Holy, you da man. You are the best tuner on this board, with the fastest Dub ever, and its all because of your pimp ass tuning skills and your SDS. 
I'd ditch my Haltech and buy an SDS since from what you say I could probably install the SDS and have it tuned faster than it would take me to install some spark plugs, but Im afraid all the excess power would blow my trans. I guess all the extra features in my current unit slows down the whole car..
I mean, you never even seen a Haltech, much less worked on it, so I can see how you think its overly complicated. Hell, a doorknob is complicated for some depending on their IQ.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (BoostedOne)*

Oh boosted one,you are the "clueless one".......I am not the "best tuner"by far,that is why I chose SDS,so I can tune MY OWN car.....why DID you put Haltech in your car if you are never gonna race it?Just so you can say how much better it is than SDS? Like I said,all I hear from you are excuses,4 projects,Merkur,whatever........







You have a car that should smoke mine,A2,Haltech,etc......but it DOESN'T.....


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*

One more thing,if Haltech is "so easy"and you have mastered all it's functions,and USE all the features,2step,launch control,etc......why can't you post up any decent times with it? I guess I will hear more excuses from you?WHY haven't you "raced in 2 years"?It's not that hard you know..........


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## Angular (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_their cars are more reliable than stock VW's ,example.............VW MAF,coolant temp sensors,coil packs anybody??? SDS builds them better than the Germans/Mexicans/ do!

I thought SDS uses pretty much all GM sensors and coil packs and so forth. Right?
Since we're on the subject... with DTA I'm running a VW coolant temp sensor ($30 but free since I already had one), VW/Lucas air temp sensor ($30), MSD GM style MAP sensor ($50), 1998 Ford ZX2 EDIS coil pack ($55) and Ford TFI ignition amps ($50 ea x2), Eurospeed.ca crank trigger kit ($200). 
Incidentally, my ECU will drive coils directly but I feel it's safer to isolate the high voltage side from the ECU and also keeps the ECU running a bit cooler.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (Angular)*

Actually it uses Bosch or GM,but I am using Bosch,and GM MAP sensors,I service/repair VAG cars everyday,and can attest to multiple MAF,coil pack,water temp,TB,etc. failures.........


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