# Excessive tire wear? 2011 TTS



## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

I've bitched and moaned about this on here before but I'm fixing to put the 5th pair of tires on the rear......and the fronts aren't going to be too far behind. The car has only 32,000 miles on it. Toyo's. They are wearing flat, no cupping, but wearing fast. I've had the suspension aligned 3 times-last time by Audi dealer who said it was in specs now. They were replaced at 24,900.....they are a 240 treadwear. Should not wear that fast. I don't slide the car around at all. It does have H&R sport springs and Neuspeed front and rear sway bars. In past experience with such wear on VW's, it was the toe that ate tires like this but Audi says it's in specs. Ideas? Clues? Others with tirewear?


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## RoadTTripper (Aug 12, 2012)

I have about 10K on my '13 TTS. Just changed over to my snows and the original Toyos still look near brand new. Front and back looked about the same in wear. Everything on mine is bone stock. No track activity, just spirited local and interstate driving. I wasn't sure how the Toyos would hold up. My Dad had a set on his '99 Miata and hated them, so I was prepared to change them over early, but will keep them a bit longer. Will evaluate in the spring.


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## Davespeed (May 4, 2004)

My 3.2 TT had more rear wear than the front. H&R springs just like you. Magride also. So much wear I could see the rubber on the rear bumper. I installed the springs and aligned it myself. Double checked it after my first time in the snow. I felt the rear was wandering alot. Checked out fine. Only thing I could think of was toe being out and or aggressive haldex braking. I traded it in for a B8.5 S4 so I'll have other issues to worry about. 

Posted from the Davespeed R&D facility.....


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

You should be very happy if you get 25000 out of a set of sport tyres


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

jaybyme said:


> You should be very happy if you get 25000 out of a set of sport tyres


No....that 24,000 was the first 3 sets of tires.....counting the original tires, it has been through 4 full sets in 32,000 miles:banghead:.....now the fronts are still good for now.....but they won't make it but 3-5,000 more miles at most.

I think it's the rear toe....I'll make an appt to get it aligned again after the new tires are put on.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

GaBoYnFla said:


> I think it's the rear toe....I'll make an appt to get it aligned again after the new tires are put on.


Bring it to a different place for alignment; its very possible that your dealer's machine is not calibrated correctly - I have seen this before.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

pal said:


> Bring it to a different place for alignment; its very possible that your dealer's machine is not calibrated correctly - I have seen this before.


You may be right.....24 degrees total toe sound very high to me.....


Here is what it was after:


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## oldGOLFer (May 22, 2012)

*Could the Differential be locked or lock early?*

I'm not sure if the TT's rear diff has the ability to lock. I had a non Audi in the past that took out the rears in 10,000 miles. It was due to the rear diff being locked all the time. Just put the winter tires on my 09 TTS and the rears are gone at 20,000, the front have at least 5,000 more.


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## sentari (Dec 4, 2011)

I have the same Neuspeed Front and Read ASB's and i'm doing just fine... I also have some MSS springs... But normal wear on tires...


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

That's actually 24 minutes (not degrees  ). But if their machine is not calibrated right, that number may be meaningless and hence its a good idea to bring it to another shop; preferably someone that does lowered and performance/sports cars.



GaBoYnFla said:


> You may be right.....24 degrees total toe sound very high to me.....
> 
> 
> Here is what it was after:


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

pal said:


> That's actually 24 minutes (not degrees  ). But if their machine is not calibrated right, that number may be meaningless and hence its a good idea to bring it to another shop; preferably someone that does lowered and performance/sports cars.


Ironically, the dealership (Jacksonville Audi) is a Stasis dealer too....they sell lowered cars....I know that doesn't mean really anything though. I booked an appt next week at Audi North Orlando.....and will put new tires on it again! :banghead:


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## DBart (Feb 8, 2012)

Improper toe on 1 rear corner was what ruined 1 set in 5K miles. Got it fixed. Getting 20,000 miles per set now on both Conti Extreme Contact DW and Michelin PSS. Car is stock 2010 TTS, so can't comment if impact from lowering, etc.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

DBart said:


> Improper toe on 1 rear corner was what ruined 1 set in 5K miles. Got it fixed. Getting 20,000 miles per set now on both Conti Extreme Contact DW and Michelin PSS. Car is stock 2010 TTS, so can't comment if impact from lowering, etc.


It's a very subtle lowering so it shouldn't affect it at all.....did it ruin all 4 or just two? Mine are worn perfectly flat that's why I suspect the TOE so much.


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## Alan71 (May 29, 2013)

Hi GBYF,
Not being a smart-ass here at all!
While your tire wear seems to be outrageous, in looking at your Toyo's wear rating of 240, it seems relatively low. I realize that the tires with ratings of 500 and above are quite different than your 'summer performance' tires, but do you think the 240 is PART of the problem your experiencing?
Happy Thanksgiving!
Regards,
Alan


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

Alan71 said:


> Hi GBYF,
> Not being a smart-ass here at all!
> While your tire wear seems to be outrageous, in looking at your Toyo's wear rating of 240, it seems relatively low. I realize that the tires with ratings of 500 and above are quite different than your 'summer performance' tires, but do you think the 240 is PART of the problem your experiencing?
> Happy Thanksgiving!
> ...


Partly......They aren't too soft.....I had a similar tire on the R32 and got about 20,000 out of them.....and the wear is esp noticeable on the rears....it should be the fronts wearing since the car is FWD most of the time.....


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## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

OP,

I met a guy at h2o that had the same issue. He actually approached me to ask if I had it with my RS. GL getting it sorted.


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## SKNKWRX (Sep 27, 1999)

My car came with the Toyos and they lasted one summer, in the winter I run Blizzaks. Summer 2012 and 2013 I ran Potenza RE-11s. These has spent 3 weekends at Tail of the Dragon in that time and still have tread left on them to get me into next season and they are stickier than the Toyo Proxes and about $100 per tire cheaper.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

SKNKWRX said:


> My car came with the Toyos and they lasted one summer, in the winter I run Blizzaks. Summer 2012 and 2013 I ran Potenza RE-11s. These has spent 3 weekends at Tail of the Dragon in that time and still have tread left on them to get me into next season and they are stickier than the Toyo Proxes and about $100 per tire cheaper.


How many miles are these seasons?


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## SKNKWRX (Sep 27, 1999)

GaBoYnFla said:


> How many miles are these seasons?



My car is a 2011 and I have 55,000 miles on it. I commute 100 miles a day 4 days a week I run the summer tires from April - early November. It goes to the Dragon 1-3 times a year and has done a 3000 mile tour of CO, WY and SD as well.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*Some points that may be of use...*

Interesting as for a FWD your car is exhibiting the tire wear rate of a RWD.

Some observations and Pal has already touched on one...;

MACHINE
- go to your usual shop and get the alignment checked though ask for a print out. Checking should be at zero cost;
- take the car to another/different tire specific shop and get the alignment checked though ask for a print out. Again, checking should be at zero cost;

The above action will give you a rough idea if the machines are saying same thing or contradicting each other. I did same once with startling results so I now only go to shops with a Hunter or John Bean machine as I found these two to be at least consistent...assuming the operator knows what to do...often they do.

Things to check
Tire pressures make a huge difference to wear rate and my hunch here is that one of the following applies...;


Negative rake – car sits lower on the rear axle compared to front; 
Load in trunk – carrying heavy load can increase wear rate because of #4 below; 
Lack of tire rotation between the axles – I swap mine every 5k miles; 
 Tire pressures are higher on rears compared to fronts or certainly higher than is optimum...manufacturers stated tire PSI does not always necessarily mean these are ideal for all...Porsche have a history of recommending high tire pressures and these tend to affect tire wear. I note that US spec Audi TT cars are recommended with higher tire pressures compared to European cars. From memory US specs TT-RS are 35fr / 33re...same cars for the European market is 32fr / 26re . That rear pressure is awfully high to me for a road car especially where the US spec cars are noted as same weight to European cars. 
Stiffer RSB setting; 
 
Just some thoughts.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Interesting as for a FWD your car is exhibiting the tire wear rate of a RWD.
> 
> Some observations and Pal has already touched on one...;
> 
> ...


Thanks for the ideas......I agree-seems odd that a car that is front biased to wear the rears.

I used Audi shop on last one hoping they knew what they were doing. I have that print out...and will compare to one at different Audi dealer I'm going to now. 

The tire ware is completely flat....not inside, center, or outside wearing more...no cupping....perfect balancing....no vibrations-no noise.....nothing but flat wear.....that's what makes me think toe. I do have the rear bar on stiff....Neuspeed one. Plus I'm one of the few that did do the front bar too....most don't. Never anything in the trunk but an umbrella and blankets to pad stuff if I need them. The car does have a appearance of the rear being lower....but measuring the side skirt-it's lower in the front.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Based on your response, #1 and #5 will be points to focus on and tackle/investigate further.


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## GaBoYnFla (Oct 2, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Based on your response, #1 and #5 will be points to focus on and tackle/investigate further.


What's the theory behind this? I had a large bar on the rear of the R32 and they wore even and I got 20,000 out of a set of tires with same treadwear rating? I know they're not the same but simular suspension.....


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

GaBoYnFla said:


> What's the theory behind this? I had a large bar on the rear of the R32 and they wore even and I got 20,000 out of a set of tires with same treadwear rating? I know they're not the same but simular suspension.....


If the car is running reverse rake (negative) and you also have stiffer RSB then on acceleration that will cause increased rate of weight transfer (natural tendencies for cars on this platform) to the rear and this will mean the rear tyres get more worked out - that is my theory.

I suspect your tire pressures on rears are relatively close to fronts...likely +/- 1PSI.

In your position, I will look to fix #1 by either raising the rears a little or dropping the fronts a little.

IMHO, I think the issue is mostly due to #1 though #5 does not help either as it stiffens the rear springs up thus transferring more of the load to the tarmac.

Reverse rake promoting increased rate of weight transfer to the rears seems to me to be the key driver of the issue here.

I do not know enough about the R32 to comment though I suspect it won't take me long to understand why you fared better with it if I had access to your previous car for a period of time.


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## Velocipedio_Redux (Jul 26, 2013)

GaBoYnFla said:


> Partly......They aren't too soft.....I had a similar tire on the R32 and got about 20,000 out of them.....and the wear is esp noticeable on the rears....it should be the fronts wearing since the car is FWD most of the time.....


The thing is, with Haldex 4, it really isn't "FWD most of the time." Haldex 4 can lock the rear clutch pack and do 50/50 without any slip on the driveline, meaning that when slip is introduced, the car can actually be rear-biased during many acceleration and cornering scenarios.

It can even do rear bias when there is no spin on the front wheels, to match dynamic weight transfer (on hard acceleration, for example the car could 60-70 percent of torque directed rearward). This info. is straight from a Haldex engineer.

My Gen. 4 S3 goes through rears faster than the fronts too, and it is totally stock and alignment is in spec.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Velocipedio_Redux said:


> The thing is, with Haldex 4, it really isn't "FWD most of the time." Haldex 4 can lock the rear clutch pack and do 50/50 without any slip on the driveline, meaning that when slip is introduced, the car can actually be rear-biased during many acceleration and cornering scenarios.
> 
> It can even do rear bias when there is no spin on the front wheels, to match dynamic weight transfer (on hard acceleration, for example the car could 60-70 percent of torque directed rearward). This info. is straight from a Haldex engineer.
> 
> My Gen. 4 S3 goes through rears faster than the fronts too, and it is totally stock and alignment is in spec.


There's no way to send more than 50% of the torque to the rear unless the front had less traction than the rear and starts to slip. There is just no mechanism for this in the car (it's a simple open diff front and rear with the Haldex up to full lock).


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Thanks for clarifying. My point was that the TTRS gen4 Haldex system can't really send more than 50% of the torque to the rear, because there is no mechanism to actively increase slip in the front other than driving conditions causing the front tires to lose traction. So you will never get it to behave like a RWD car where all the power goes to the rear even when the front tires have traction.


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## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> Thanks for clarifying. My point was that the TTRS gen4 Haldex system can't really send more than 50% of the torque to the rear, because there is no mechanism to actively increase slip in the front other than driving conditions causing the front tires to lose traction. So you will never get it to behave like a RWD car where all the power goes to the rear even when the front tires have traction.


Not disputing anyone's comments but I'd be damned if it doesn't feel more rear biased durin LC. Before I installed the haldex last week, it was front tire fire. Now it's all ass end and fish tailing at 4200rpm launches. I would say it is well over 75% to the rear with the front controlling slip and bite.


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## Velocipedio_Redux (Jul 26, 2013)

Marty said:


> Thanks for clarifying. My point was that the TTRS gen4 Haldex system can't really send more than 50% of the torque to the rear, because there is no mechanism to actively increase slip in the front other than driving conditions causing the front tires to lose traction. So you will never get it to behave like a RWD car where all the power goes to the rear even when the front tires have traction.


Right. I find that in the real world, Gen. 4 essentially mimics the older Torsen systems in its operation (except in steady state cruising). Premptive clutch lockup at 50/50 and torque bias proportional to slip is essentially what the center diff did on the older cars. The rear tire wear I get on my S3 seems to confirm that the rear is more active than some might think.

This video of an MK2 TT from a German forum also nicely depicts just how heavily the rears can be engaged, depending on slip and conditions: http://www.vimeo.com/3313154


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