# European van that is far superior to the Routan



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

_Modified by Seyfarth at 11:47 PM 2-27-2008_


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*


----------



## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*

Build one and then back out 17% VAT, and then convert at 1.50 Euro or 1.98 GBP to $1, then let me know if you still want it. This van is too expensive, and with the volume the EV sold at, I kinda understand why they did not bring the T5 here, even though the executive model is AMAZING!!! We need volume, and VW is attempting to do that with the Routan, time will be the judge for Stephan Jacoby and crew.


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (DCubed)*

Wait a minute. VW de Mexico sells a decontented B5, they sell the Sharan and even the big diesel Badger.
Considering that the Mexican household income is a fraction of ours, how can they justify it?
I'm honestly curious.
http://www.vw.com.mx/


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (DCubed)*

Mexican Sharan: http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcm....html
Mexican B5: http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcm....html
Mexican Crafter (not Badger, sorry): http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcm....html


----------



## iamsuperdan (Aug 9, 2001)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*

And in other groundbreaking news, Germany has just invaded Poland!









We know that the Routan is a rebadged and slightly modified Chrysler. We know that Europe gets much better VW vans. 
The fact remains, VW will not bring over a "real" VW van. The volume just wasn't there with the Eurovan, because the pricing was too high, and ALL other vans had more features. The typical van buyer doesn't care about Fahrvergnugen.


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm not talking about Europe, the Sharan and T5 are available 120 miles south of where I live, in Mexico. I can cross the border and see them in the showroom.
If Americans can't afford a real VW van, how do Mexicans do it with their reduced median income?


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*

By the way, the Mexican Sharan sells for $40000 pesos (about $4000 dollars) less than their entry level Passat.


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Anyway, hope springs eternal...*


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

The Space UP! photo is copyrighted. If you would like to use it, please post a reply here.


----------



## clanton1.8T (May 28, 2004)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_The Space UP! photo is copyrighted. If you would like to use it, please post a reply here.


----------



## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_The Space UP! photo is copyrighted. If you would like to use it, please post a reply here.

You've now resorted to _requesting_ that someone please post in your thread?








Naaaaah, you're doing a good enough job all on your very own. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
So...........how do you really feel about the Routan?


----------



## AzBarber (Jun 2, 2003)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (DCubed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DCubed* »_We need volume, and VW is attempting to do that with the Routan, time will be the judge for Stephan Jacoby and crew. 

This is the part I don't understand. The T5 is avaiable in Australia and England, both much smaller markets that the US. Even New Zealand gets 4 wheel drive models and a selection of drivetrains.
I don't think the problem is volume.
Az


----------



## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (AzBarber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AzBarber* »_
This is the part I don't understand. The T5 is avaiable in Australia and England, both much smaller markets that the US. Even New Zealand gets 4 wheel drive models and a selection of drivetrains.
I don't think the problem is volume.
Az

I have been told its a 100% volume issue by my contacts at VWoA, the cost to certify the cars is not worth the small volume for us here in the states, the things did not sell for 28-35K new, and they want something more family friendly, dual sliding doors, Leather, Nav, all the cool stuff that the oddy/sienna has and be able to badge it a VW, I have seen the sharan and T5 in MX, I have no answer than other than some people can afford it, I saw plenty of nice cars in my time in MX and have family there that drives "Nice" VWs (Believe it or not I am 1/2 Mexican) and other nice cars, there is a middle class and an upper class in MX, also businesses use them, and most sharans I saw were rentals. I think the Routan will have to find its place in the market quickly to be considered a success, I hope it does well, because we need VWoA to start turning a profit, or else I am afraid to see the backup plan if they have one.


----------



## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (DCubed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DCubed* »_
I have been told its a 100% volume issue by my contacts at VWoA, the cost to certify the cars is not worth the small volume for us here in the states, the things did not sell for 28-35K new, and they want something more family friendly, dual sliding doors, Leather, Nav, all the cool stuff that the oddy/sienna has and be able to badge it a VW.... 

Agreed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *DCubed* »_.... I hope it does well, because we need VWoA to start turning a profit, or else I am afraid to see the backup plan if they have one. 

I hope so too....for obvious reasons......personal and professional.


----------



## johnrg (Jul 11, 2003)

The California is quite simply the most elegant and efficient camper I've seen recently. When you consider there is nothing in the US market today under $55k to match the garageability, the utility and interior space and interior style/finish, I so wish this model was available.
Damn.
John


----------



## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: (johnrg)*

Comparing the T5 California to the Routan is like comparing apples & oranges.....
Although not a VW, these are pretty cool:
http://www.sportsmobile.com/index.html
And they do have a bit of VW "heritage."








The SpaceUp! is awsome - too bad VW didn't beat Scion to that market segment before the xB came out.











_Modified by vwbugstuff at 1:51 PM 3-1-2008_


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: (jsmyle1%@vw)*

Sorry. i think you misunderstood.
The space UP! photo is mine. If you would like to repost it or publish it, please send me a request and we an negotiate.


----------



## clanton1.8T (May 28, 2004)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_Sorry. i think you misunderstood.
The space UP! photo is mine. If you would like to repost it or publish it, please send me a request and we an negotiate.


oh, please can i re post YOUR picture


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

I hope the Routan does well too, just not too well. I wouldn't want to see more re-badged Chryslers in the VW lineup.
As far as what I think about the Routan, I thought it obvious, but I can say that when I read that the Microbus was confirmed, I was ready to buy one as soon as I could, and I was willing to do so even if it meant it was the last car I would ever buy. It was a minivan with "cool" and "soul" written all over it. I do not feel that way about the Routan or any other minivan sold in the US now, for that matter.
I'm sure the Routan will sell well to the many cross shopping the Chrysler and Dodge versions, The VW is better looking and the detailing has much better quality. I personally will need more convincing as far as reliability and build quality are concerned.
Ultimately it comes down to that. I would have bought a Microbus or new Eurovan at whatever the price. A purchase out of passion. 
The Routan is just another minivan to consider.


----------



## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_I hope the Routan does well too, just not too well. I wouldn't want to see more re-badged Chryslers in the VW lineup....


Don't panic. I don't think we'll have to worry about the next GTI being built on a Calibar platform.

_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_....As far as what I think about the Routan, I thought it obvious, but I can say that when I read that the Microbus was confirmed, I was ready to buy one as soon as I could, and I was willing to do so even if it meant it was the last car I would ever buy. It was a minivan with "cool" and "soul" written all over it. .....

I would have done the same thing....right up until the point of getting into the finance department and having to figure out how to budget for a 50K vehicle.









_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_....I'm sure the Routan will sell well to the many cross shopping the Chrysler and Dodge versions, The VW is better looking and the detailing has much better quality. I personally will need more convincing as far as reliability and build quality are concerned.
Ultimately it comes down to that. I would have bought a Microbus or new Eurovan at whatever the price. A purchase out of passion. 
The Routan is just another minivan to consider.


I hope the Routan sells well too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I agree that it looks much better than the Chrysler and Dodge versions. In fact, I think (based on pictures alone) that it looks just as good as the Odyssey.
I'm somewhat concerned about the reliability and build quality issue too.....especially since we are into the third year with our Odyssey. It's been relatively reliable.....not bulletproof mind you.
If the VW Credit lease program is competitive, we'll give it a shot (out of passion and value







)....no question.....despite not having *black leather *as an option.


----------



## iamsuperdan (Aug 9, 2001)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_The Space UP! photo is copyrighted. If you would like to use it, please post a reply here.

Right click, save as, woo hoo! 
Excuse me while I email some people.


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: (iamsuperdan)*

Enjoy


----------



## alvint_vw (Jun 6, 2003)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_Sorry. i think you misunderstood.
The space UP! photo is mine. If you would like to repost it or publish it, please send me a request and we an negotiate.















free.....


----------



## vibes099 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (DCubed)*

Chrysler needs volume as well, so their main strategy is two fold. One, overcome their perceived quality issues with the powertrain, many of which were real, by offering their product with the best warranty available, a lifetime powertrain warranty, covering parts and labor. The second is to offer a product which offers more innovative features than the competition. The innovation gives you the emotional reason to buy through great product differentiation and the warranty gives you the logical reason to commit. A good strategy IMHO.
VW though stripping away the warranty , stripping away many of the innovative features, ignoring the quality issues, and changing the facade to come up to a Toyota. So VW is hoping that people will by their product because it has the superior facade and that people will ignore the quality issues of having a Chrysler powertrain that even Chrysler can't overcome.
I think VWs backup plan is already 90% implimented, make no lasting commitments to North America so they can pull out quickly without having to worry about closing a factory or laying off workers. 
A plan of a strategic retreat.


----------



## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (vibes099)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vibes099* »_stripping away many of the innovative features

Ummm, like what?


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (vibes099)*

Is this true? is it rue that VW will offer a lesser warranty than Chrysler?
Where is this info coming from?


----------



## Skisbp (Dec 25, 2003)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (DCubed)*

Nearly don't forget about the chicken tax!


----------



## emPoWaH (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_I'm not talking about Europe, the Sharan and T5 are available 120 miles south of where I live, in Mexico. I can cross the border and see them in the showroom.
If Americans can't afford a real VW van, how do Mexicans do it with their reduced median income?


_Quote »_
By the way, the Mexican Sharan sells for $40000 pesos (about $4000 dollars) less than their entry level Passat. 

'Cause the Routan is far better than any thirteen-year-old Sharan, which has the soul, passion, and character of a white Camry.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (emPoWaH)*

I joined this forum just to post on this thread. I have a 2003 Eurovan Camper. My second one. I don't buy the argument that the pricing of the new van would be so much more due to the value of the dollar, etc. There are a lot of cars that sell for less in the U.S. than what you can buy them for in Europe that are made in Europe. The French Smart ForTwo costs about $4 to $6,000 more in France than it does for the same exact car in the U.S.
I've heard all kinds of reasons from diesel engine patents with Dodge and VW, to the Sprinter deal with Dodge...it's rather confusing. VW is following the U.S. model of big box stores where every town has to be identical, the U.S. is getting away from unique stores. The Eurovan didn't sell a lot, but I can cross the border to Mexico and illegally bring over a VW T5 and convert my T4 into a T5 illegally, swap VIN numbers and have a diesel that gets double the gas mileage (30 to 38mpg) rather than my current 17 to 18mpg and a manual and a much improved interior. 
VW is stepping away from its base. I'm now considering the Sprinter van but I may just keep the 03 EVC. When I heard VW was discontinuing it, I immediately sold my former EVC and bought the 03.
Now, these EVCs are selling for more in 2008 used than they were NEW in 2003, so there is a demand for them. I can't imagine the "high cost" to certify the van through the EPA/NHTSA is the reason. I hear Dodge didn't want a cargo version of the Eurovan as competition with the Sprinter should VW start using it as a Fleet vehicle in the U.S. like they do in Europe. A diesel VW Eurovan gets far better gas mileage than a Sprinter, and not everyone needs the space of a sprinter van and with the air shocks allowing for weight...I don't know. All I know is I won't be buying the 2009 VW van that Dodge is making and I will be looking at alternatives even if they are extreme.
Bring back the diesels to the USA. Stop the nonsense.
The better option may be for an independent organization to crash test a T5 and pay to get it certified through the EPA, but this would require organization of enough people to put money down to reserve an imported T5 from Germany and it'd be more expensive. Mexico would be the place to import them yet better options in Europe. I don't understand why they can't give us both options. The price tag never seemed that high to me considering most large SUVs are upwards $60k. Personally, I see more value in a unique van that holds its value than a depreciating large SUV. Bring back the diesel and you've got one unique vehicle holding its resale value. If they would have offered a T5, I would have likely traded in my van at least once, possibly would be ready for a second T5 by now. There's no way I am going to be interested in this gasoline Dodge Caravan. What a joke. Soccer mom van, it'll sell but will it carry a resale value...I think not.


_Modified by 03T4EVC at 3:32 AM 3-16-2008_


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

Oh, and you can get a T5 in Mexico in the $20s (US) and a year or two ago you could buy the California there, but I'm not sure if you still can. I spoke with someone regarding cutting off the front end of the T4 to put the T5 front end on it, etc. Apparently a $10k job, but add in the low cost of a T5 in Mexico..I'd say you'd have a unique vehicle that might be legal enough. I mean the majority of the van would be a T4 from behind the seats, but I'm not sure what qualifies a "repaired" vehicle to be the T4 or T5. I suspect nobody would know the difference except EV fans. I'm not crazy about up sizing to a Sprinter, but like the T5 front end/diesel/stick/features and dislike the blah factor of every U.S. van on dealer lots. So our options are to keep an older VW van and hope they bring us a European option years down the road or go with a Sprinter. Buying a Dodge caravan is not an option...first of all, it's too small and second it's a Dodge.


----------



## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

To all you EV drivers/lovers:
*I FEEL YOUR PAIN*! I _really_ do. You all are very special individuals. You all share a passion for a special vehicle. I just wish there had been more (a whole lot more) of you all back when I was doing my best to sell them.
The majority of the individuals that bought them from me were just that....._Individuals_. Individuals that marched to whole different drum _and_ beat. It seems the vehicle was selected _more_ for its utility and flexibility...._less_ for its child-hauling/child-accommodating capabilities.... and _in spite of _its lack of aerodynamics







, OEM leather seats, OEM CD player, dual-sliding doors, power seats, DVD players, etc.
I don't expect EV drivers/lovers to accept the Routan any more than I would expect them to accept the Odyssey or Sienna.
For the sake of VWs dealer group's (potential) success as well as my livelihood, I will welcome the Routan into my showroom......especially since the number of potential customers that want this vehicle far out number those that want a T5.
I will also, more than likely, welcome the Routan into my driveway if all goes according to plan:
a) The Routan's road feel is close to our Odyssey
and
b) VW Credit's lease program for the Routan is similar to the Odyssey.


----------



## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: (jsmyle1%@vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsmyle1%@vw* »_I don't expect EV drivers/lovers to accept the Routan......

I already have....because I'm sure it will be easier to buy the correct load rated tires for a Routan and there will probably be a dipstick so that you can check the transmission fluid without a computer.......
























_Modified by vwbugstuff at 12:00 PM 3-16-2008_


----------



## clanton1.8T (May 28, 2004)

*Re: (vwbugstuff)*

i love the idea of owning a new VW van but because in reality it will just be a chrystler i think we will be going with a honda.


----------



## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: (clanton1.8T)*

Not to start a Honda bashing thread, but here's a couple of things that make you stop and say, "Huh"....
*Transmission issues*
Many owners reported transmission problems with their second generation Odyssey, and Honda ended up replacing many transmissions under warranty for free. The 4-speed automatic transmission in 1999 to 2001 models had very serious problems with transmission durability. Honda responded to the problems by extending the warranty on the transmission to 7 years or 100,000 miles (160,900 km). A class action settlement further extended coverage to 109,000 miles (175,400 km) or 93 months for some '99-01 Odysseys in the U.S.A.[1]. Canada is not included. The five-speed automatic introduced in 2002 was supposed to fix this, but general reliability of the transmission did not improve until 2004. The five-speed introduced in 2002 suffered early wear out and failure of the transmission's third clutch pack. This causes large amounts of clutch debris to migrate through the transmission and block flow of transmission fluid, caused slipping, poor or no shifts, or sudden down-shifts from 5th gear to 2nd gear. Under some conditions, the second gear could overheat and break, causing the transmission to lock. An oil jet was added to lubricate this gear but this did not solve the third clutch problem[2]. The addition of a transmission cooler with the towing package does not help with transmission reliability but it was required for any towing, or the warranty would be voided. The optional towing package included coolers for power steering and transmission.
2003 models are also affected by this problem.
*Third Generation (2005 - Present)*
This Odyssey has not had the rampant transmission problems of the last generation, and 2005-2006 overall reliability has been average according to Consumer Reports. Problem areas include body integrity, body hardware, audio system, brakes and suspension according to Consumer Reports, April 2007. Crash test ratings have been five star in every test but the 2005 had a safety concern. "During the side impact test, the driver door became unlatched and opened. A door opening during a side impact crash increases the likelihood of occupant ejection." Odyssey has won a spot on Car and Driver's 5Best trucks for the past three years, as well as a host of other awards.
There have also been issues with the power steering pump and power steering fluid containment system, causing a national backlog of replacement part orders.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (vwbugstuff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwbugstuff* »_
I already have....because I'm sure it will be easier to buy the correct load rated tires for a Routan and there will probably be a dipstick so that you can check the transmission fluid without a computer.......























_Modified by vwbugstuff at 12:00 PM 3-16-2008_

I've owned two VW Eurovans for a total of ten years and I never even thought about checking the transmission fluid. I didn't know it didn't have a stick to check the transmission fluid. Interesting. Are people having transmission problems? I drive past literally five VW dealerships to get to the one VW dealer who is fair on pricing and service is outstanding. I guess I rely on my VW dealer more than I should and check the transmission fluid. Makes sense. 
The nice thing about the EVC is you can put an 800 tread wear rating with Hydroedge which is 2 to 5 times higher than every other tire on the market...expect to get around 75k miles on these tires which are highly rated on tirerack. http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=683
I only use the stock rims for studded snow tires. I have alloys on it with a load rating of 98. 102 is overkill for the van unless you are hauling the 4400 pounds the Class III trailer will pull. I've had as low as 96.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (clanton1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clanton1.8T* »_i love the idea of owning a new VW van but because in reality it will just be a chrystler i think we will be going with a honda.

Exactly, however I would consider it IF they had a larger version of it. I understand they want to sell the mid-size minivan to the average van consumer in the U.S. High sales numbers and all, however VW seems to allow for multiple van versions in Europe and even Mexico. They have all sorts of options, yet we are stuck with something that basically is the same as the competition. The main reason I won't be interested is the cargo capacity is substantially smaller and a Sprinter van is enormous in comparison.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (jsmyle1%@vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsmyle1%@vw* »_To all you EV drivers/lovers:
*I FEEL YOUR PAIN*! I _really_ do. You all are very special individuals. You all share a passion for a special vehicle. I just wish there had been more (a whole lot more) of you all back when I was doing my best to sell them.
The majority of the individuals that bought them from me were just that....._Individuals_. Individuals that marched to whole different drum _and_ beat. It seems the vehicle was selected _more_ for its utility and flexibility...._less_ for its child-hauling/child-accommodating capabilities.... and _in spite of _its lack of aerodynamics







, OEM leather seats, OEM CD player, dual-sliding doors, power seats, DVD players, etc.
I don't expect EV drivers/lovers to accept the Routan any more than I would expect them to accept the Odyssey or Sienna.
For the sake of VWs dealer group's (potential) success as well as my livelihood, I will welcome the Routan into my showroom......especially since the number of potential customers that want this vehicle far out number those that want a T5.
I will also, more than likely, welcome the Routan into my driveway if all goes according to plan:
a) The Routan's road feel is close to our Odyssey
and
b) VW Credit's lease program for the Routan is similar to the Odyssey. 


I don't disagree with you. The Routan will be a more profitable car for the dealerships and Volkswagen than the more specialized Eurovan. It's my understanding that Dodge had pushed hard not to allow the T5 to be offered in the U.S. as a fleet commercial vehicle as they are in the other countries as they didn't want a Sprinter competitor. Which is strange because the EV is so much smaller, yet a base cargo version of the T5 is less expensive and gets far better gas mileage so for someone wanting a large van, the EV makes sense. For someone who wants a commercial size van, then Sprinter makes sense. 
However, I will disagree that IF Volkswagen brought the T5 diesel which gets over 30mpg and with gas prices expected to go well over $4 in the Spring (some places are already reporting over $4 a gallon). I suspect the gasoline version of these vans will be less desirable, however nobody is offering a fuel efficient diesel anymore in the way of over 30mpg. I don't understand why they don't push diesel more. They say it is because Americans don't want them...I know when I looked for them at the dealerships, they are hard to find. Few know that a Golf, Jetta, Jetta Wagon, Beetle 1.9 TDI gets over 40mpg. But you can't buy them anymore.
The Sprinter gets 18mpg loaded and 24mpg unloaded. I'd much rather a T5 TDI van for cargo that gets 27 loaded to 38mpg unloaded. These are summer averages. Not everybody needs/wants the space of a Sprinter and the small van market for the family to take their kids to soccer practice makes sense, but why don't they offer a larger van, the T5, in fleet form like they do in Mexico and Europe? They offer the T5 in luxury form there too for the rare buyer wanting something like a California van or a passenger van. They have several different soccer mom vans and the T5. They already have the van designed and made. I don't buy the fact that it was slow numbers. I think it has more to do with Dodge/Mercedes and Volkswagen's agreement to keep the T5 out of the fleet lineup for commercial transport trucks. There was a deal made regarding the engine design and a trade off was made with regard to the sell of the T5 and Sprinter.
What we really should be asking is why didn't they offer a soccer mom van such as the Sharon in the past in addition to the T5. I mean the market is different. Comparing a T5 and trying to get an Honda van market is pointless. They are completely different vehicles. Yes, the T5 fits into it's own category...that's the point. It fits closer to the Sprinter and recreation vehicles than it does with a Honda van...at least it does in other countries. The USA isn't as unique as they say it is...they just simply didn't offer both vans because Dodge/Mercedes broke a deal with them long before the Routan was designed. This goes back to why they didn't bring the T5 and the whole Sprinter lineup and how the two companies had various patents, namely on engines, etc.
The Routan will compete as a rebadged Dodge with some VW flare and there will still be a market for a mini-Sprinter. And in the meantime my resale value on my EVC will stay high. I think the current prices for a 2003 EVC on autotrader and gowesty is in the mid 40s. I paid $36k new for my 2003 and $33.5k new was the price on the offered 2002 EVC.
My thoughts now are going to diesel and how to convert the van to a diesel. I'll be keeping this long-term as there is nothing on the market that makes sense.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

Also keep in mind they discontinued the T4 Eurovan in 2003 back when gas prices were still a dollar and change a gallon.
Volkswagen is VERY unique with regard to the sheer number of diesel vehicles they offer that get up to 50mpg. The diesel version of the van is rated over 30mpg. Now that prices are projected to be over $4.00 a gallon this Spring, I suspect VW needs to get their act together and start pushing hard to get their diesels back to the U.S. I get on average 17mpg for my van driving conservatively and I'd pay a premium to double that number which is what the diesel gets. I drive about 20,000 a year...I'm not sure how many thousand dollars a year that is but it's only going to get more expensive.
Does anybody know of anyone in the U.S. who knows how to convert a T4 into a diesel? I would gladly get rid of my VR6 engine for the diesel.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

Here's my list of cars that get over 40mpg in the U.S. 
Smart ForTwo 2008
Honda Civic Hybrid 2003-08
Honda Civic HX 2002 (manual only)
Honda Insight 2000-06
Toyota Prius 2001-08
VW Jetta Diesel 2000-03; 2004-05 (manual only) 
VW Jetta Wagon Diesel 2002-03; 2004 (manual only)
VW New Beetle Diesel 2000-01; 2002-06 (manual only) 
VW Golf TDI 
The only part of this list that is incomplete isn't the models, but the years for the models. I don't have a complete list for the years, but I don't think there are any other cars out there that get over 40mpg stock.
Now as far as vans go...the only van that gets over 30mpg
VW Eurovan/Transporter T4/T5
The gasoline T4 gets horrible gas mileage compared to the U.S. mini-van competition...no wonder they sold so poorly...they were marketing them to the wrong people! These aren't soccer mom vans. VW has plenty of those already in other countries.
But the sad part is the VW heritage of buses...the bottomline is they need to come out with four styles of "buses".
Change the name to bus...why not, VW could market that and sell it nicely.
1. A very inexpensive basic air-cooled bus similar to the affordable VW buses of several decades ago. 
2. A soccer mom van to compete with Honda, Toyota, GM, Chrysler, etc.
3. A full-size van like the T5 to compete with other full size vans, the Ford E-line, Dodge Sprinter, GM Express.
The idea that they were trying to satisfy all three types of consumers with one van is insane. The people who wanted an inexpensive bus like they got back in the 60s didn't want the Microbus price tag and that's too pricey for a soccer mom, so yes sell the Routan to satisfy the typical family van buyer. Make a stripped version of a 60s bus with loads of accessories and options to make each one unique, sorta like what they did with the Mini Cooper and some other vehicles that you could do all kinds of things. But make a cargo size van like the T5 and give it gas mileage that makes sense. A T5 that gets in the teens doesn't make sense when you can buy a larger Sprinter that gets in the low 20s. FINALLY bring a diesel van over here and you will have a very nice commercial van to sell to fleet companies as well as one to highly customize like the California.
At the very least, bring the California van to California...otherwise rename the van.


----------



## 03T4EVC (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

One more thing. If you want a brand new class B recreational van similar to the Eurovan then the only known option is to go with a Dodge Sprinter. Dodge Sprinter recreational vehicles start at around $90 and go up beyond six figures. Yes folks, you heard right. Thought the Microbus was overpriced?
Well, take the Dodge Sprinter van without any conversion. You can get a stripped version starting at $34k for the smallest one and the basic features that you likely will want to include on it will cost you another a MINIMUM of another $4k (and that's still stripped for the most part) but overall if you want the Sprinter van with a fair amount of features you'll be leaving the Dodge dealer with a van costing fairly close to $50k (and that's before you get to the RV conversion.)
There's only one company that I know in the USA that will convert a Sprinter van the way you like it. All the others, Roadtrek; Leisurevans; Pleasureway; Great West Vans - Legend; Gulf Stream Vista Cruiser and Winnebago's Era are all cookie cutter designs costing six figure (plus or minus). Sportsmobile will custom design your van and it can cost well over six figure too, or you can get a very basic stripped version with next to nothing installed will cost you $19k, but anyone who knows anything about what you need in a class B knows that the options they offer you will cost you far more than what the one-size-fits all companys above sell them for and these vans average around 18mpg fully loaded to very low 20s fully loaded. $100k+ for a huge van that is very difficult to find parking for versus the $36k I paid for my van and the idea that they could put diesel in the van to pull 30mpg.
I'd be willing to pay $40 to 50k or more for a Microbus. How many SUVs are over 50k now....a lot. They wouldn't sell a lot of these, but if there were clever enough in the design, they could at the very least attract people into the showroom and then sell them a TDIl car (should they decide to bring them back) Otherwise, VW is just rebadging products like the American companies which in my opinion is one of the main reasons why the American companies are doing so poorly. They rebadge everything. They finally got rid of Oldsmobile, next Buick needs to go, and then Pontiac, because the same car is found in the other makes such as Saturn, Chevrolet, GMC & Saab. BTW, the 2009 Chevrolet Travene or however it is spelled van looks similar in quality design as the new Malibu, which I think they may have a competing product for the Dodge Caravan.
The point is that VW did not stop selling the Eurovan because of the sales figures. The sales were low because they were selling a van that is designed more for commercial/industrial use than homeowner use. They never brought over any of their regular vans to sell here. Instead, they made a deal with Dodge to forbid VW from selling VW Eurovan in fleets for commercial use and so Dodge gets to make VWs for Volkswagen and Dodge gets to sell the Sprinter. All because VW needed Chrysler/Mercedes to design engines and use their patents. Oh well, what are you going to do?








I want to know why International can't sell a Sprinter anymore. I have to say going to the VW dealership is quite boring. The rabbit...yawn. No TDI's anymore. The EOS is nice though but I'm sure they will say it's overpriced...too expensive for VW and discontinue it, then come out with an even more overpriced vehicle that fails miserably...you know like the Phaeton. Actually what's ridiculous is the VW Phaeton...that's proof that VW hasn't got a clue about what VW consumers want anymore. Maybe they are trying to recap R&D still in Europe on the money they loss on that car here.
It wouldn't take much for them to bring the T5 six speed diesel Eurovan over to the U.S. such as the California. So you don't sell tens of thousands of them...at least you have something interesting in the showroom. How are those VW 10 cylinder gas guzzling diesels in the Tourag doing? $70 to 80k...brilliant. I'm waiting for the V12 to come out before I buy one because I really need low rpm horsepower and 553 pounds of torque in a VW SUV with a car that gets gas mileage in the teens no matter which engine choice you pick you'll get very low gas mileage. What happened to high gas mileage VWs? You don't see Honda trying to be a Lexus. Why is VW trying so hard to be Audi? Are they going to use this diesel SUV as more proof of failed diesel engines? A less expensive van makes sense, but the T4 was never overpriced in my opinion...it just never should be marketed to the mass public. It's the backbone of VW. The buses and beetles is what people historically think about when someone says Vdub. They don't think about rabbits (which historically was a failure) nor the other line ups which basically are the bread winners of the company. They had the buses to bring in the public, for brand recognition...I don't think they are going to get that by following the masses to compete with Honda, Toyota, GM & Dodge. Honda and Toyota will produce a better mass market car than Dodge...it's just history repeats itself. Why, because Dodge produces vans in quantity...not quality. 
The difference between an expensive Microbus ($50k) versus an expensive Toureg/Phaeton ($70k+) is there is zero competition for such a product. Everybody and their grandmother is competing for the SUV/luxury car market. And the high production van market is high competitive too. Heck, even Audi A8 can't be competitive, they sell that car at huge discounts...what made VW think they could do better than Audi? And so VW, you were wrong, there IS a big market for the Microbus. Rebadging with Dodge only hurts VW...I don't care how they flower it up, it's an overpriced Dodge Caravan. When the newness wears off after a couple of years, it'll be like any other Dodge van on the market. Poor resale and reliability.
Okay, I'm done. I love VW, but the stuff they have been doing doesn't make a bit of since. Are they planning on pulling out of the U.S.? Seems like the U.S. is the last on their list. What has happened to VW?
If they come out with a TDI Routan then I will be more forgiving, because then they will actually be out of the ordinary in something, i.e. gas mileage that currently would make any hybrid look pointless. That is until they come out with these 80 to 100mpg cars Prius and Volt keep talking about.


_Modified by 03T4EVC at 6:47 AM 3-17-2008_


----------



## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: (Seyfarth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Seyfarth* »_Sorry. i think you misunderstood.
The space UP! photo is mine. If you would like to repost it or publish it, please send me a request and we an negotiate.


LMAO
its the internet...no one is making money off posting your photo here..why would they pay you? you should be happy someone chose to use your photo over someone elses.


----------



## vibes099 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (vwbugstuff)*

innovative features stripped away. Swivel and go seating for comfortable seats and long road trips where an adult can sit and have a sandwich with their children on a removable table. Unique feature, if you want it you have to get a Chrysler, not available in any van or VW. Stow and go seating for those who more want a multipurpose van for family road trips with the kids in the middle seats which are slightly less comfortable (who needs that much comfort when they are in a child seat anyway) but really need the ability to have everything go flat for hauling large materials in a utility van setup and don't want to simply take the seats out and set them on the front lawn or in the garage. Neat feature that do it yourself families would love, gone on the VW. Need to get the Chrysler. Movable tray/ center arm rest which allows mom to open the food in the passanger seat and then move it back to the second row, neat feature, unique on the market, unavailabe in VW. Lifetime warranty for those who don't lease (which is most of us) and want something that we don't have to turn in after a few years once it's paid off. Perhaps you loose your job or get sick and aren't in a position to buy a new vehicle and need the present ones to last. Great peace of mind, only in Chrysler. 
What VW has, fold flat third row, just like every other minivan on the market. Stationary second row seating that can be removed if you need to haul something large, just like every other minivan on the market. Navigation computer, everyone else has it. LCD screens for watching movies, everyone else has it. You don't sell as a marginal player in the market with a product which is undifferentiated from everyone else and has no unique sell points. Especially when none of your products have made the Consumer Reports recommended list for the last 5 years. That strategy will have you trying to close dealerships faster than you can go into debt on sales losses.


----------



## chewym (Jun 21, 2006)

The Sharan is a very outdated product. The T5 is a smaller minivan than the Routan. And it gets really expensive with an engine that Americans would buy (the 3.2)
Can't say that either one is a better product than the Routan for 25,000 dollars. The Routan delivers a lot more of what Americans want.


_Modified by chewym at 3:52 PM 3-31-2008_


----------



## Seyfarth (Nov 11, 2002)

LMAO
its the internet...no one is making money off posting your photo here..why would they pay you? you should be happy someone chose to use your photo over someone elses. 
OK. I made an ass of myself.
My apologies to all who are disconcerted and confused, (and ultimately angry) by my photo post.
Can we get past that already?
I am happy to see all the posts about the Routan vs. real VW vans. I hope VW can see we are loyal VW followers and only want the best from our favorite company.
I will wait patiently for another 5 years to see what VW has in store for us. For now, I will spend all my money keeping my 99 Passat wagon alive. It's up to 107,000 miles. It's burning 2 quarts of oil between changes, so it probably needs a rebuild. So is life.


----------



## driver0069 (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

Dookie


----------



## InSaNeBoY (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (driver0069)*

I'd love a T5 too. But I can honestly say there is no way in hell I could afford $50k for a van and really I doubt I need something that large any how.


----------



## Dieselkraftstoff (Jul 25, 2006)

*Re: (03T4EVC)*

Mexico gets this:








And we get 5hit.


----------



## luisgp (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: (Dieselkraftstoff)*

I started a Poll for a new Sharan Forum here
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3899181
To create the forum we need 200 votes. Please Help me if you can.
Luis


----------



## tkempster (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: (Dieselkraftstoff)*

Couple of thoughts I wanted to share. I travel a lot in Europe and my fiancee is Austrian. We're planning a long trip (ca. 1700km or 1100 miles) following our wedding there next year, so I was estimating fuel costs. I was expecting to get reamed because we need to take a van (I have three children from my first marriage).
Believe it or not, at current fuel prices it looks like the cost will be about 120 Euros ($187 at current rates). Why so "little"?? Three words: VW - Sharan - Diesel ! ... 41mpg(US) (5,7 l/100km) on the highway!!!
I know you all love the T5 (as do I, I've owned three Eurovans of various vintages) but the 7 passenger diesel Sharan has GOT to be the best kept secret going. It's a crime that this isn't being readied for the US market with "50-State-Diesel" technology.
When it comes to buying my next car, I'm going to do everything in my power to get a Mexican one into the US... even though I live in Massachusetts!!


----------



## luisgp (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: (tkempster)*

Man, all Sharans here are 1.8T or VR6 models. No diesel. It's a shame.


----------



## tkempster (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: (luisgp)*

Hmph... so much for my master plan!
Good thing I know a dealer in Germany... will have to see what it would take to import one privately. What a stupid thing to have to do for what really should be a $20k vehicle!!


----------



## dubstarks (Dec 4, 2002)

*Re: European van that is far superior to the Routan (Seyfarth)*

Illuminated cup holders?? Is this the kind of leaps and bounds we can expect from VW.
Sorry but most of the features are sheared with all the other MV's and SUV's out there and are marketing doodads that "you need to have to be competitive"
Nothing to really set it apart from the others
No pop top 
No all wheel drive 
This will be white noise in the already dying van market.
Mostly I'm just disappointed, I was really hoping VW would do something new and different or at least stay true to it's van roots. I will give them credit for a diesel option if we see it.
Another case of to little to late in the VW line
I miss my Weekender more than any car I have owned, and would gladly pay the extra coin for gas, to have that kind of quality and versatility. 





_Modified by dubstarks at 12:31 AM 7-9-2008_


----------

