# Explain the different K04 Trim Levels?



## B3VR6 (Jan 4, 2000)

What's the difference between the K04-1, K04-15, etc?
I found a site (don't have it handy) that even has K04/Garret GT28 Hybrids! I'd love to know what turbo sub model is better for what application...


----------



## 01 Wolfsburg (May 7, 2003)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (B3VR6)*

The 1 is what bolts onto our engines like a K03. The 15 is the Audi app that goes on the 225TT.


----------



## ND4SPDTT (Jan 7, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (B3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B3VR6* »_What's the difference between the K04-1, K04-15, etc?
I found a site (don't have it handy) that even has K04/Garret GT28 Hybrids! I'd love to know what turbo sub model is better for what application...

I believe that the TTs use the 20 or 23...
Where is this hybrid site? Could be very interesting...


----------



## B3VR6 (Jan 4, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (ND4SPDTT)*

Actually, I have a 99 Passat, so I must have the 15.
Here's the site:
http://www.mjmturbos.com/
Eye candy:


----------



## 01 Wolfsburg (May 7, 2003)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (ND4SPDTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ND4SPDTT* »_
I believe that the TTs use the 20 or 23...
Where is this hybrid site? Could be very interesting...

My fault, I think you're right. However I do believe the 15 is still an Audi application.


----------



## B3VR6 (Jan 4, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (01 Wolfsburg)*

We're both right. The Passat and Audi both share the same platform and the same longitudinally-oriented engine.


----------



## 01 Wolfsburg (May 7, 2003)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (B3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B3VR6* »_We're both right. The Passat and Audi both share the same platform and the same longitudinally-oriented engine.

Right. I got the 23 and the 15 mixed up I think. Oh well.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (01 Wolfsburg)*

K04-001 is a bolt-on to transverse 1.8Ts. Original application was a Ford diesel van.
This is almost the same size as a K03-052/053 in late model GTIs, Jettas, and Beetles, only the blades are different.
K04-015 is a longitidunal 1.8T turbo application. Don't know about the size of the housings.
K04-020 and K04-023 are used in the transverse 1.8T Audi TT 225. I believe the wheels are about 7-8mm larger than the K04-001.
All K03 and K04 turbos share the same 4mm shaft and mount, which means you can literally bolt the compressor of one trim to the impeller housing of another, but I think they may both have to be the same application (transverse or longtidunal).
Example: mine is a K03-053 impeller mated with a K04-020 compressor.


_Modified by paultakeda at 2:53 PM 3-18-2004_


----------



## B3VR6 (Jan 4, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Thanks for the reply Paul. It sounds like the limiting factor with our K03/4 turbos is the tiny shaft. 4mm is just too small to move the amount of air we need to move to get over 250hp or so reliably.
What does your K03/4 hybrid give you? Faster spool up with more flow at high RPM?


----------



## rsbaker (Apr 20, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *paultakeda* »_K04-001 is a bolt-on to transverse 1.8Ts. Original application was a Ford diesel van.
This is almost the same size as a K03-052/053 in late model GTIs, Jettas, and Beetles, only the blades are different.

Just wondering, are there appreciable lag differences between the K03 Sport and the K04, given that they are similar in size?
There was a technical discussion here somewhere regarding the Audi TT 225 design. They were comparing what was probably the early K03 (not the Sport) and the K04. While the K03 could produce the desired torque earlier, it had to spin almost 33% faster (200,000 RPM vs. 150,000 RPM, give or take) than the K04 to produce the same horsepower and did not perform as well under dynamic loads. I wonder how these numbers would change if you substituted the K03 Sport.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (rsbaker)*

My hybrid pulls about 15-20 g/s more than a K03 Sport at WOT, or at least, that's what the VAG-COM reports. Spool up is the about the same as the K03 sport I used to have... perhaps a little faster,
It was enough airflow that the ECU couldn't compensate and I was running lean.
Power output has yet to be figured out; I'm having a custom chip installed this weekend.
The K03 Sport has a larger compressor than the K03, by about 5mm.
A K04-001 has a larger impeller than the K03, by about 5mm. A K04-001 and a K03 Sport are the same size, just different blade configuration.
The K04-020 from a TT225 is 7-8mm larger than the K03 Sport.
That makes my hybrid really weird, since that means my compressor is 12-13mm larger than my impeller.


_Modified by paultakeda at 8:23 AM 3-19-2004_


----------



## rsbaker (Apr 20, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

So, the K03 Sport and K04 have the same size compressor wheel? On the surface, this would mean that for a given RPM (of the turbo) that they push the same amount of air, yes?


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (rsbaker)*

I would say yes, but the larger impeller on a K04 allows it to push the impeller with greater ease once it spools up. Also, the compressor wheel is the same size, but the blade configuration is different. 
This is why many people don't think the K04-001 is a reasonable upgrade for the price if the car already has a K03 Sport, and why Neuspeed has now turned to Kinetic Motorsports, who use a modified K04-001 that has a different set of wheels.


----------



## Sim (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

K04-020, K04-022, K04-023 are TT225 turbos. I happen to have one waiting for "the transplant". It has got 44mm (inside diameter) compressor inlet. The K04-023 picture on the MJM site is not a real K04-23. K04-23 looks like the K04-020 (& 022).


----------



## ND4SPDTT (Jan 7, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (B3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B3VR6* »_We're both right. The Passat and Audi both share the same platform and the same longitudinally-oriented engine.

Sorry.. but the TT's transverse.


----------



## Wal (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (ND4SPDTT)*

How the hell do you mate a ko4 turbine to a GT28 compressor? Surely that cannot be done. And if they still use the KKK turbine shaft its going to snap. This is one setup I will probably never see being used.


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (Wal)*

not sure, i've seen a GT28 mated to a K04 but it was a GT28 that could be mounted onto the KKK manifold, no adaptors just welded, pretty neat


----------



## WhiteG60 (Aug 20, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (ND4SPDTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ND4SPDTT* »_Sorry.. but the TT's transverse.
 A4's aren't.


----------



## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *paultakeda* »_K04-001 is a bolt-on to transverse 1.8Ts. Original application was a Ford diesel van.

Not sure if you saw my post in an older K04 thread of yours, but according to a U.S. Borg-Warner distributor, the "Ford Van" application is a Vortex Myth.

_Quote »_All K03 and K04 turbos share the same 4mm shaft and mount, 

Very interesting, as I've heard people say that the K04-001 is somehow "weaker" than the 015, 020, 022, 023 due to its "wimpy" shaft. 
Please keep us posted on the custom chip process!


----------



## Wal (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (cburkart)*

Now here's a proposition. If the shaft on a KO4 is only 4mm then why not use the shaft off a bigger turbo eg K04-20, or even a K16. Anyone know the shaft size of the KI6. Or go one step further and uses the impeller aswell. Presuming the shafts are compatible then you have a hybrid KO4-01. I have a sneaking suspicion this is what the Kenetic KO4 is. 
Tell you what, when someone buys the super KO4 pull it apart and reverse engineer it then you can provide everyone the definative answers


----------



## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (Wal)*

The problem with different turbine side (impeller) is that you need a different exhaust manifold. With a K04-001 or K03 turbine side it bolts on to our stock manifold; a different compressor side only requires a new inlet pipe and a means of routing to the stock intercooler pipe.
Also, housing sizes are different for the other K04 variants, so you'd probably have to machine the interior of a K04-001 or K03 housing to fit larger wheels. This is supposedly what Kinetic has done on the Neuspeed kit.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (cburkart)*

The K04 series turbocharger has a part number of 5304 988 xxxx, where the last four numbers designate what K04 model it is.
Example:
The TT225 is a K04-020/022/023, part numbers 5304 988 0020, 5304 988 0022, and 5304 988 0023.
Using that as a based, the K04-001 should therefore be 5304 988 0001.
The Borg-Warner site lists the following for the 5304 988 0001:

_Quote »_
BW part no.: *5304 988 0001 
OEM part no.: 914F6K682AF 
Manufacturer: Ford 
Vehicle: Transit FT 190 
Engine: 2,5DI 
From: 01.09.1991 
Power (KW/HP): 74/100


As for shafts... I have a K03-053 turbine mated to a K04-020 using a 4mm shaft. They bolt together perfectly.
The perceived weakness of the K04-001 may lie elsewhere....


_Modified by paultakeda at 2:54 PM 3-23-2004_


----------



## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Here's the information from the distributor (Pro-Imports in the D.C. area):

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There's a misconception that the K04-01 is 5304 988 0001 and it is off a Ford Transit. It is not. If you try to order a 5304 988 0001, you will get something completely useless. All the heresay about how the K04-01 is stock on a 110hp Ford pickup and shouldn't be trusted to run high horsepower on a 1.8T is all ludicrous ignorance.
...
5304 988 0001 = Some K04 variant off a Ford Transit, don't know what the heck else it fits other than the Ford Transit. Certainly doesn't fit any VAG car.
5304 950 0001 = K04-01, fits the tranverse Mk 1.8T. Not listed in the BW catalog.


He stated that he had to talk with Borg-Warner directly to get the proper part number.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (cburkart)*

Thanks for the clarification.
Borg-Warner needs a more comprehensive catalog and search routine (does not allow wildcard searching).
Your contact is being a bit harsh about it being ludicrous ignorance. With insufficient information, we can only go by what can be learned. No one's ever posted the KKK part number for the K04-001 before (to my knowledge). It should be placed in the FAQ, something like: K04-001 bolt-on is KKK 5304 950 0001.
Did he find out the original application for the K04-001?


_Modified by paultakeda at 5:09 PM 3-23-2004_


----------



## Wal (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *paultakeda* »_As for shafts... I have a K03-053 turbine mated to a K04-020 using a 4mm shaft. They bolt together perfectly.
The perceived weakness of the K04-001 may lie elsewhere....
_Modified by paultakeda at 2:54 PM 3-23-2004_

This is exactly what I'm getting at so paultakeda which blades are you using the KO3 or the KO4-020? Actually just thinking about it you must be using the compressor blade from the KO3 but did you change the turbine side to be using the KO4 or is that the same size as the KO3? As I see it the trick would be to use the KO4 compressor blade for the extra gains over the KO3. Am I correct?


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (Wal)*

I didn't change the wheels.
I put the compressor half of a K04-020 together with the turbine half of a K03-053 (Sport). Since I didn't change the wheels out, I have a K04-020 compressor wheel (51mm) and a K03-053 turbine wheel (37mm).
The turbine half of my turbo is basically stock, so it bolts right up to the exhaust manifold.
The compressor half is not stock, and required fabricating a 2" inlet pipe and an L pipe to connect it to the LIC.


----------



## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Were you able to re-use the oil and coolant feed lines from your K03? I don't remember exactly where they attach and don't have a diagram handy. I've read that the K04-020~023 require new lines.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (cburkart)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cburkart* »_Were you able to re-use the oil and coolant feed lines from your K03? I don't remember exactly where they attach and don't have a diagram handy. I've read that the K04-020~023 require new lines.

I was able to re-use the feed lines, yes. The only custom fitment issues were the inlet pipe and connection to LIC.
Oh, and they had to shave 1mm off of this flange coming off the block.. looked like a fabrication process piece (a tiny 1x1cmx0.5cm piece of metal sticking out of the block). The large compressor whorl was butting up against it.


----------



## Blue GTI (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Exactly the same turbine I am going to install in about two weeks. Parts have about 40k miles, but it was rebuilded and complited 3k miles ago. I bought it from a friend and he bought for himself a T3/T4. Here are some pictures of my K04-020/K03-011 hybrid : 
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...7.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...1.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...2.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...3.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...4.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...5.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...6.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...7.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...8.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...9.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...0.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...1.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...2.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...3.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...4.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...5.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...6.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...7.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...8.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...9.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...0.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...1.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...2.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...3.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...4.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...5.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...6.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...7.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...8.jpg
http://www.mobisux.com/album/d...9.jpg

Can you tell me are K03-053 turbine wheel (37mm) and older K03-011 turbine wheel the same size? My turbine half is from standard old K03.
Does original K04-020(2,3) from Audi TT 225HP has 4mm shaft?


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (Blue GTI)*

The K03-011 and the K03-053 have the same turbine housing. So you basically did the exact same thing I did.








Yes, the K04-020 has the same 4mm shaft, otherwise I don't thin the hybrid would have been as easy to bolt together.


_Modified by paultakeda at 4:07 PM 3-24-2004_


----------



## Blue GTI (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Does somebody know what diameter is wheel on turbine side on original K04-020?
You can use my pictures, no problem


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (Blue GTI)*

I think the K04-020 is 51mm on both ends... but that's an assumption. It's more likely the K04-020 has a smaller turbine, maybe 47mm?


_Modified by paultakeda at 4:38 PM 3-24-2004_


----------



## Blue GTI (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Outer diameter is 50mm from compressor housing intake and is the same on K04-020 and K04-023. So compressor wheel is bigger than 50mm. But I dont know about turbine wheel, but is probably much bigger than K03's 37mm.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (Blue GTI)*

My size references are all based on the inducer diameter.. I've never seen the wheels outside the housing, so absolute sizes are problably best left out.
Let's just say the following:
1. The K03-011 is the baseline.
2. The K03-053 has a compressor wheel 5mm larger than the K03-011.
3. The K04-020 has a compressor wheel 13mm larger than the K03-011.


----------



## paultakeda (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

Someone just broke open a K03 and posted pics.
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/513476/3
He measures the compressor at 52mm A/R 0.72.
The turbine is 46.5mm A/R 0.95.
If that's the case, then the K04-020 compressor is 65mm. If the K03 he busted open is a Sport, then the K04-020 compressor is 60mm.
He did not specify which K03 it is, but I have a K03 Sport sitting on my desk (the one that originally came with my car), and from the looks of it, I'd say what he's got cracked open is a K03-011.


_Modified by paultakeda at 9:53 AM 3-25-2004_


----------



## Blue GTI (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: Explain the different K04 Trim Levels? (paultakeda)*

That's a great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------

