# VWvortex Feature - Our First Look at the new Golf 7 MQB Architecture



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Last week we had a unique opportunity to go to Wolfsburg, Germany to learn a little bit about Volkswagen Group's new MQB component architecture. Volkswagen Group brands (Volkswagen, Audi, Lamborghini, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche and more) comprise more than 200 individual models of cars. The complexity involved in trying to reduce costs and the number of components, meeting exceedingly strict emission and safety standards all the while reducing waste and consumption is obviously quite huge. MQB not only represents a new car specific part platform, but also an all-new modular engine program and modular production program. With MQB VW can build any vehicle from Polo to Mid-size SUV utilizing the same assembly line. Likewise, if a factory supports MQB, then producing an Audi, Seat or Skoda product at the same facility is also a possibility. This gives VW Group brands the ultimate flexibility to build market specific trim variations and response to regional needs far quicker while reducing the overall complexity involved in supporting so many products...

*FULL STORY...*


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## chisai88 (Jan 10, 2003)

2.8L VR6 Turbo....If that goes into a Golf. Yes, please.
2.5T....If that goes into a Golf. Yes, please.


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## Magmakensuke (Jan 7, 2008)

So this means there is no excuse for us not to get any VW offered in the UK...


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## Estate (Aug 1, 2000)

Magmakensuke said:


> So this means there is no excuse for us not to get any VW offered in the UK...


You mean, aside from NA demand?


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## KahviVW (Feb 26, 2009)

Magmakensuke said:


> So this means there is no excuse for us not to get any VW offered in the UK...


As the article states, it depends on the Mexico engine plant.


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## 29_MALE_SOCAL_SPICY (Jun 16, 2008)

awesome to see VAG flex the engineering muscle. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## AbuNigel (Jul 11, 2009)

This just makes me love VW even more. It's such a great company.

And perfect timing for my first new car purchase in a couple years post graduation :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## slightlyVR6stoopid (Apr 18, 2010)

I just hope the mk7 golf looks good.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

Estate said:


> You mean, aside from NA demand?


:thumbup::thumbup:

very true. and it's not even necessarily the lack of demand for cars like this, it's the lack of profitability for cars like this. they bring them here, but other cars are too big, so they don't get bought. that's why smartcar did not have the results they wanted. they did well the first year when people who wanted them already got them, but then after that... jack ****! because subconsciously, or even consciously, people cross off the idea just because it is the norm to imagine cars as bigger here and that means a general sense of wanting to be safe. people don't think 'oh that would benefit me', because we didn't grow up living around all small cars. we just don't even see the benefits like europeans do; whom have much different emissions standards.. the reason their cars have continued to be so much smaller. we don't have those lower models with 1.3 liter engines for a reason... they wouldn't sell. just to the enthusiasts and for people who buy it for novelty(like most of the people who buy smartcars).


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## BMBLE B (Dec 7, 2005)

My question...what the hell is this going to do to the part number system?

Seems to me it may be a radical change coming...


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## VeeDub Racer (Jan 24, 2002)

Pretty awesome that the base model VW will now be a 1.8T. That is pretty awesome for the tuner on a budget! Hopefully this new structure of the VW manufacturing will help lower prices and not just increase profits for VW.


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## 1-VW (Jul 15, 2006)

This is one of the most significant report I have seen in years regarding the development of a new VW product. I cant help the butterflies in the stomach feeling after reading this article. 

The innovations/achievements discussed is astounding and technically challenging. Having a mass-production platform that can be reconfigured with different alloys based on model using the same production line is extremely difficult to accomplish at the manufacturing level and you need to have a lot of faith in your quality control to pull this off. 

Nothing currently on the market will be able to compete with the MQB products.

On another topic, I pray that VW will keep the VR6 alive. The sound and smoothness is addictive, I also believe with all things equal it should be a faster revving engine. Contrary to popular belief 5 cylinders are oftentimes no lighter that a six cylinder due to the extra beefing-up that is required and don't usually offer any advantage in other areas for performance engine applications.


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## peter bisset (Feb 16, 2012)

*This is terrific news. re Audi A3.*

This is terrific news, and I am very impressed with the info on the new E288 diesel. If the new A3 has this engine, and especially if it has a hatchback 4 door design, I will be one of the first A3 buyers in Canada.


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## Sharpix (Feb 16, 1999)

The possibilities are huge.
But in this weird economic downturn, i suspect the economy will win this time. No Golf or cheaper GTI.

Its funny how they sell the GTI at Audi prices. The fun cars are no longer cheaper or somewhat attainable. The price for a GTI is the same as a loaded Nissan Altima. For us, that grew with VWs they leave us no option but buying the family oriented choice.

the Mk4 Gti was priced about 25% more than the base/average model. The MK6 is priced 50% more expensive than the base car. :banghead:

Dont they really know the economic is "in the hole" and they could sell 50% more Gtis by taking out the unneccesary bells from the car?


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## Crzypdilly (Feb 20, 2004)

Wow! Awesome writeup! Thank you:beer:


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## soop_soop (Dec 4, 2006)

*Cookie cutter cars!*

Mind as well purchase a Cobalt if it is basically the same car as an Impala. VW's used to have spirit and uniqueness. BMW


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## leakslikasieve (Nov 7, 2005)

Did i read the specs on the new 2.0tdi right? 188hp/280 tq? Is that going to be in the US, or is that the euro model numbers like the current GTD engine.


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## EuRoGTI86 (Sep 28, 2008)

:thumbup:


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## IloveMyCar32 (Jun 21, 2008)

It will be a good day, yet it will be a sad day.


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## EuRoGTI86 (Sep 28, 2008)

When is this looking to start? I just started a 3year lease on my mk6 Jetta. Hopefully by then this will have been started :beer:


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## ncgr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

Magmakensuke said:


> So this means there is no excuse for us not to get any VW offered in the UK...


VW would still need to get the vehicles certified for sale in the USA. If there is no market for the version, there would be no justification to invest the millions in USA approval.


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## ncgr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

Sharpix said:


> ....Dont they really know the economic is "in the hole" and they could sell 50% more Gtis by taking out the unneccesary bells from the car?


Do you have a reference to your marketing information source that is better than VW's marketing information? Do you have an opinion why VW would not be offering the car in the form that is wanted? Are they trying to limit sales, do you think?


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## 155VERT83 (Aug 1, 2000)

*.*

No mention of when the Scirocco will be avialable in the US. :laugh:  :banghead:


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## Misorizxe (Jun 17, 2011)

Lower it.


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## Eurofan4eva (Aug 21, 2002)

The VAQ diff better be available on the next GTI here. It would be a big mistake if VW leaves that out, it should be standard on the GTI. Then bump the power in the 2.0T to 280hp, I'm tired of so many people complaigning that the GTI is under powered.


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## Brush (Nov 18, 2002)

Does this mean that we will finally get a *6*-speed stick in the Golf?


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## vincenzo (Oct 22, 2002)

This all looks promising. Particularly for the GTI. MKVII may be in my future.


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## deno (Dec 13, 2007)

Did i hear just read that the TDI will feature a 188 hp engine with 280 pounds of trq ?

Can you say ..chip a TDI and run 13 second quarter mile 

Who da hell would wanna buy the 2.5l or 2.0t if the tdi is going to be that fast ? and still running 1200km a tank ?


wow....good job vw


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## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Oh good reading for later! Going to tweet this ASAP: @LuvGermanCars


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

This would be interesting if one were to know that you have a chance at getting the diesel in your vehicle of interest, lane assist, park assist, the LSD, and other features. Since the NA market gets reduced engine choices and features, its nothing more than a tease. VW's ultra conservative approach is starting to become somewhat of a bore. Foreign and domestic manufacturers in NA are catching up on traditional VW strengths (handling, powertrain, features) as VW is trying to become more like the completion by deleting content and devolving the product to 10 years ago (2.slow, beam rear suspension, drum brakes). If I wanted a Toyota Corolla or Camry, that's what I'd buy so I could get the quality associated with the brand. I don't want to buy a bland, defeatured car plus have to deal with VWs less than exceptional quality.

MQB just further enables VW to make the interesting cars Europeans expect and the garbage they feel NA deserves.


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Ok, I feel your frustration, but when was the last time you drove a Golf 6 GTI or Golf R (or Jetta GLI or new Passat for that matter)?


I know it is fashionable to throw them under the bus for trying to be profitable in the U.S. market, but here's the deal - profitability means we can actually get the cool stuff. Some of the features you talk about are the type of thing that people think are cool, but in reality aren't will to pay for at the end of the day. You can't just sell a bunch of $30k Jettas to a handful of people. If VW is profitable, they can justify offering some of those luxury features (if the demand is there or competitors offer them) because it is a built-in cost absorbed in the profits (to an extent).

The new Jetta is a worst case example of a car that just didn't get the oversight it should have under old management. That said (and despite the criticism) it is selling like crazy and profitable. Clearly the automotive press and a handful of enthusiasts don't know crap about the real market for cars. However (and this is important), despite the sales success, VW has been quietly fixing the criticisms with the Jetta. The higher trim level cars are getting soft-touch plastics added back in. The 2.5l engine will be replaced by a far better 1.8TSI and on and on. The Passat shows that VW can build a very good car with the feel and quality of a German/European car and sell it at a price point that is extremely competitive. With sales success of the Passat comes more options like HID's and LED tails and other things that some of the much smaller higher-end customers want.

Lets be frank - the Golf III and Golf IV were crap boxes with loads of problems. Golf V/Jetta V got much, much better in terms of quality and things have gotten much better. MQB is a worldwide component platform and has been engineered for the German market first and everything else second. That means at its core, it will be European and still feel like a proper Volkswagen. Let's wait and see what the future holds. Or you can always buy a Toyota. 

-jamie


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> The new Jetta is a worst case example of a car that just didn't get the oversight it should have under old management. That said (and despite the criticism) it is selling like crazy and profitable. Clearly the automotive press and a handful of enthusiasts don't know crap about the real market for cars. However (and this is important), despite the sales success, VW has been quietly fixing the criticisms with the Jetta. The higher trim level cars are getting soft-touch plastics added back in. The 2.5l engine will be replaced by a far better 1.8TSI and on and on. The Passat shows that VW can build a very good car with the feel and quality of a German/European car and sell it at a price point that is extremely competitive. With sales success of the Passat comes more options like HID's and LED tails and other things that some of the much smaller higher-end customers want.
> 
> Lets be frank - the Golf III and Golf IV were crap boxes with loads of problems. Golf V/Jetta V got much, much better in terms of quality and things have gotten much better. MQB is a worldwide component platform and has been engineered for the German market first and everything else second. That means at its core, it will be European and still feel like a proper Volkswagen. Let's wait and see what the future holds. Or you can always buy a Toyota.
> 
> -jamie


Jamie -

That kind of brutal honesty is sorely lacking in the world, thanks. 

Great write up about MQB. The implications for the auto industry as a whole are immense. This new architecture will be a major game changer and provide some significant competitive advantages.


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## Goatey (Sep 13, 2000)

This is all fine and dandy but unless vw lets the styling department make some inspirational design choices I will never buy a new vw again! IMO the last really nice looking designs ended with the mk4. The new passat makes me sick because it looks like a lumpy ford fusion with some audiesk tail lights. :facepalm: 

Vw now that the underpinnings are in line let all the artists get together to develop great designs through out the family.

Man I never log in anymore but this thread is very interesting.

Keep the good stuff coming please.


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## randy915 (Jan 5, 2009)

Funny how I posted a link to an Autoblog article about this very subject a few weeks ago and the post magically disappeared within a few hours...


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Brush said:


> Does this mean that we will finally get a *6*-speed stick in the Golf?


Already possible ... just buy a TDI.


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

soop_soop said:


> Mind as well purchase a Cobalt if it is basically the same car as an Impala. VW's used to have spirit and uniqueness. BMW


Just because two cars share the same mounting points for the suspension and use the same lower control arms and ball joints and steering rack etc doesn't necessarily mean that they will be calibrated identically and it doesn't mean they'll feel identical.

Besides, aside from generational differences, Mk4 Golf = Mk4 Jetta = GTI = New Beetle (the previous one, not 2012+) = Audi TT = Audi A3 = Skoda, Seat, etc and that's before this level of modular construction. Does an Audi TT feel the same as a Golf TDI (same vehicle generation) even though they're dimensionally the same underneath?

For a couple of decades, every Volkswagen regardless of size had transverse engine, front drive, MacPherson struts, rack and pinion steering, twist-beam rear axle, and a lot of that stuff was either interchangeable or very similar already. VQ doesn't change this, it just reduces cost and improves manufacturing flexibility, and that's a GOOD thing.


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## Euro_Boiii (Feb 18, 2012)

HOPEFULLY they keep the design similiar to the MK7, in my opinion its the best design so far


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## Euro_Boiii (Feb 18, 2012)

My bad, i meant the MK6


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Lets be frank - the Golf III and Golf IV were crap boxes with loads of problems. Golf V/Jetta V got much, much better in terms of quality and things have gotten much better.
> ...
> 
> -jamie


Golf IV maybe, but I'm not so sure the Golf III qualifies as a crap box with loads of problems.


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## Wolfrado (Dec 31, 2006)

*Rigidity?*

Most car makers tout improvement in platform rigidity with each generation but I haven't heard anything with VWs recent offerings like this MQB. Is that because they aren't any better or because they don't want to share?


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Wolfrado said:


> Most car makers tout improvement in platform rigidity with each generation but I haven't heard anything with VWs recent offerings like this MQB. Is that because they aren't any better or because they don't want to share?


It will probably vary considerably depending on what top hat they put on top of that floor, and it's too early for anyone outside of VW to know that. There's no reason to suspect that MQB is going to be a flexi-flier ... VW isn't that dumb.


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## jonedal (Mar 14, 2010)

Great concept but when will NA get the new pick up sold in every market but NA is VAG afraid to go toe to toe with FOMOCO to become bigger than toyota and gm


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## ncgr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

GoFaster said:


> It will probably vary considerably depending on what top hat they put on top of that floor, and it's too early for anyone outside of VW to know that. There's no reason to suspect that MQB is going to be a flexi-flier ... VW isn't that dumb.


The days of auto chassis that are not rigid and better than the previous generation is over. The commercial viability of a car in VW's premium class requires top notch structures for crash test results as well as improved vehicle control. And the advanced CAD/CAM systems and materials science make it almost easy.


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## ncgr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

jonedal said:


> ....but when will NA get the new pick up sold in every market but NA is VAG afraid to go toe to toe with FOMOCO to become bigger than toyota and gm


VW's current non-commercial P-up is more like the Honda USA entry, which has never been successful. I don't think VW will need a model the P-up segment to be successful in the future, and would bet their market research confirms it.


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## ncgr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

mhjett said:


> Golf IV maybe, but I'm not so sure the Golf III qualifies as a crap box with loads of problems.


I have had both in VR6 form, and the Mk4 is a whole level higher than the Mk3. My Mk4 has had no issues in 12 1/2 years and 90k miles. The Mk3 was the low point in my 30 year VW history, other than the PA made Rabbit.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

ncgr12 said:


> I have had both in VR6 form, and the Mk4 is a whole level higher than the Mk3. My Mk4 has had no issues in 12 1/2 years and 90k miles. The Mk3 was the low point in my 30 year VW history, other than the PA made Rabbit.


I've had my '95 GLX VR6 for eight years and it now has 172k miles and runs like a top. Only recurring issue has been the driver's side window regulator.


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## merog (Mar 8, 2006)

I look forward to the unveiling of the golf mk7 and the audi a3.
To see what equipment and engine choices we get here in europe.
let's hope vw add's 4 motion to several engine options, not just to the largest Diesel and the golf R.
Whit a modular system like the MQB it should not be difficult. 
How about a golf 1,8 tsi 4 motion??


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## Audiophil (Sep 30, 2007)

Excellent feature, thank you for the write up Vortex. :thumbup:

As long as VW/Audi doesn't over extend the use of MQB it sounds like a real cost saving winner. Remember your core customers expect something approaching a 3 series but not as cheap/beige as a Toyota/Ford, etc.. keep that in mind and you will do very well.


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## 1-VW (Jul 15, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Ok, I feel your frustration, but when was the last time you drove a Golf 6 GTI or Golf R (or Jetta GLI or new Passat for that matter)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good insight and VW fans like myself are happy that VW will partially make right the wrong they did with the MK6 Jetta but I respectfully disagree with the conclusion that the automotive press are out of touch with the real market. 

IMO the MK5 proved that VW can once again make superior & reliable cars and people now feel comfortable buying the MK6, based on the time-proven MK5 reputation. If VW does to the MK7 Jetta what they did to the MK6 it will carry a heavy price and they wont be this lucky the next time around. 

The MBQ architecture and torque vectoring system is a step in the right direction and I really hope VW use these strengths to there full potential (hint: give us the lightweight aluminum floor on the GTI and keep the Haldex setup active during braking maneuvers).


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## slippyfish (Oct 29, 2001)

Excellent post, read the whole thing (which is rare) but I've worked in design groups within manufacturing organizations and know the challenges first hand.

I have to wonder how MQB differs from Toyota's current thinking - modular, strategic, what-have-you - and the resulting limitations that it puts on the designers, including exterior, interior, and chief engineer.

It would seem that the Toyota Way started all this some years ago, and that it translates visually into dull cars, last place in the Car Design surveys. Its not a matter of good or bad designers; every company has amazing resources and designers. Its how long it might take before the designers figure out how to work within or around the new requirements to create amazing, astonishing new cars.


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

slippyfish said:


> Excellent post, read the whole thing (which is rare) but I've worked in design groups within manufacturing organizations and know the challenges first hand.
> 
> I have to wonder how MQB differs from Toyota's current thinking - modular, strategic, what-have-you - and the resulting limitations that it puts on the designers, including exterior, interior, and chief engineer.
> 
> It would seem that the Toyota Way started all this some years ago, and that it translates visually into dull cars, last place in the Car Design surveys. Its not a matter of good or bad designers; every company has amazing resources and designers. Its how long it might take before the designers figure out how to work within or around the new requirements to create amazing, astonishing new cars.


Not much about the way the floorpan looks affects the top hat that they put on top of it within reason. Besides, VW is not new at sharing considerable portions of the vehicle layout between models that differ widely in appearance. Could you tell the difference between an Audi TT and an ordinary Golf if all the outer panels and structure that gave the cars their shape were removed?

It was Toyota's choice to do their designs by committee so as not to offend anyone. VW has shown that they can do this too, with the current Jetta and Passat, which are inoffensive but bland. But the prior Jetta shared mechanicals with Golf, Audi TT, Audi A3, etc even though it looks nothing like an Audi TT. They know how to do this and it need not force blandness. It also need not force overassisted power steering, limp suspension, dull drivetrain dynamics, or any of the other things that are associated with Toyotas being bland.

Of course, this platform is not going to spawn a competitor for anything like, say, a Chevrolet Camaro, but that's not what this is about.

I really hope MQB results in a rework of the Jetta sooner rather than later.


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## Brush (Nov 18, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> Already possible ... just buy a TDI.


If I had meant *Golf TDI*, I would have said *Golf TDI*.

But a *GOLF*, normally aspirated, gasoline powered, does not have a friggin' 6-speed.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Ok, I feel your frustration, but when was the last time you drove a Golf 6 GTI or Golf R (or Jetta GLI or new Passat for that matter)?


I wanted to let your comments maronade for a minute before I offered you a resonse. First of all, I drove a 4 door GTI VI for two days the last time I had to leave my Jetta TDI V overnight for service. A brand new example with the floor mats still in the hatch with less than 20 miles on the odometer. Suncoast was short of VW loaners so they pulled one out of the line. Its a nice vehicle. I think you're being a little presumptuous in your efforts to offer a defense to VW. The passat reminds me a little too much of a Chevy Impala to gain my attention. 



[email protected] said:


> I know it is fashionable to throw them under the bus for trying to be profitable in the U.S. market, but here's the deal - profitability means we can actually get the cool stuff. Some of the features you talk about are the type of thing that people think are cool, but in reality aren't will to pay for at the end of the day. You can't just sell a bunch of $30k Jettas to a handful of people. If VW is profitable, they can justify offering some of those luxury features (if the demand is there or competitors offer them) because it is a built-in cost absorbed in the profits (to an extent).


Why thanks but I was not attempting to be fashionable, just accurate. That's your attempt to color the situation to discredit my statements. VW has themselves asserted that they intend to design cars targeted to the NA market. I didn't make the crap up, they did. Thus far, the Jetta, Passat, and the Beetle are the latest product they rolled out. I'm not impressed with some of the choices they made and the equipment they left out. 

Too bad that Volkswagen drug thier feet for ten years talking about expanding NA production while even Hyundai and Kia got around to building plants with far less deliberation. If you want to compete with the masses, make decisions just as promptly and maybe you have a chance. They could leverage production anywhere in the world but they are too risk averse to take a chance. As VW improves profitability I wouldn't be the least suprised that we will get more products that increase profitabilty (ie, dull mass market products based upon the lowest common denominator).

VW can't build a better (ie, cheap car) Kia than Kia (especially with German labor). They can't bet Toyota, Honda, and Nissan on quality anytime in the near future. The domestics can build generic boxes of conveyance to match American sensibilities and muscles cars the way we want them. They can't sell cars that compete well with BMWs in the US market. The best thing they could've done some time ago was to build what they know closer to the US or find a low cost market to export from. 



[email protected] said:


> The new Jetta is a worst case example of a car that just didn't get the oversight it should have under old management. That said (and despite the criticism) it is selling like crazy and profitable.


Well, regardless the Jetta is out there. I can't judge it by what you say or what VW has said but what they have done with the car. Impressive. The Vega and Citation were just as popular too starting out. I'm not saying that this is VW's equivalent. I'm just saying that current results may not reflect future prospects. Let's see how the latest incarnation of Jetta does in the long term.



[email protected] said:


> Clearly the automotive press and a handful of enthusiasts don't know crap about the real market for cars.


I will assume that this doesn't apply to me. Considering you probably have as much time writing about the auto industry as I have working in it, I would say that I am just as qualified if not more so about how the 'real market for cars' works. Instead of being feed press releases, I was designing fuel system, vehicle controls, powertrain components and braking solutions. Before the economic down turn forced me into defense, that was what I did. 



[email protected] said:


> However (and this is important), despite the sales success, VW has been quietly fixing the criticisms with the Jetta.


And a fair amount of those sucesses are conquest sales based upon the price point on a car that has a slim profit margin. Conquest sales are a tricky thing. Many of these were price/value buyers VW just won over and they are the hardest to keep. You will loose them on the next buy if your quality isn't good. VW still has some growing to do in this department. You will loose them in the next buy cycle if you don't have the right product to step up to. You will loose them in the next buy cycle if something cheaper / cooler comes around. You probably can hold a feature buyer longer as long as you have the features to keep them. They may let you slide a little on quality if the overall experience is decent. VW saw an uptick at the begining of the Mk IV Jetta / Golf release but I think the quality wasn't good enough to keep some of these conquest sales. The enthusiast stuck by the brand while some others fled. I think VW can make a price / value play without killing off enthusiast buy offering them better appointed cars at the top of the range.



[email protected] said:


> The Passat shows that VW can build a very good car with the feel and quality of a German/European car and sell it at a price point that is extremely competitive. With sales success of the Passat comes more options like HID's and LED tails and other things that some of the much smaller higher-end customers want.


And when are these higher end features coming? I have no doubt that the Passat is a very good car. But there are alot of folks making good cars these days. The Passat is very cost competive and has the same visual lack of distinction that most cars in it's segment have. Accords, Camrys, Malibus, Altimas, and Fusions are all 'nice'. I really don't know if there is enough about the Passat to stand above the crowd besides the optional diesel engine.



[email protected] said:


> MQB is a worldwide component platform and has been engineered for the German market first and everything else second. That means at its core, it will be European and still feel like a proper Volkswagen.


Sounds like marketing talking points from VW. Deeds not words.



[email protected] said:


> Let's wait and see what the future holds. Or you can always buy a Toyota. .


I think they've already started to show us and it isn't good IMO. Let's not be try to bend words. I said* if *I wanted a boring, dull, bland, characterless vehicle, I would get a Toyota and have a less eventful ownership experience on average. Obviously, I don't have a Toyota because that isn't what I want. I like interesting cars with character. I just don't know where I will be migrating to if VW's future is reflected in the last two years.

I do thank you for presenting the article. I'm just not as beholden as you are to VW. I'm in a position where I can be more critical.


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

When is any of this going to be in the showroom to buy???

Thinking about a Golf TDI, but is it worth waiting a year, or more for the new one???


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## GTIDamien_407 (Nov 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Ok, I feel your frustration, but when was the last time you drove a Golf 6 GTI or Golf R (or Jetta GLI or new Passat for that matter)?
> 
> 
> I know it is fashionable to throw them under the bus for trying to be profitable in the U.S. market, but here's the deal - profitability means we can actually get the cool stuff. Some of the features you talk about are the type of thing that people think are cool, but in reality aren't will to pay for at the end of the day. You can't just sell a bunch of $30k Jettas to a handful of people. If VW is profitable, they can justify offering some of those luxury features (if the demand is there or competitors offer them) because it is a built-in cost absorbed in the profits (to an extent).
> ...



 why do people not like mk3/4's they're reliable cars and if maintained properly will go on forever. I have to say the mk4's were definately the best generation, you had the 2.0, 1.8t, tdi, vr6, 3.2 r32. Recaros, lip kits etc

But on side note I think the gas tank placement is stupid, just asking to get ruptured during a side impact collision. Might cause issues for those people who are lowering their cars too.


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## Crzypdilly (Feb 20, 2004)

I'd have to disagree. My MK4 is a love hate relationship. I take care of my vehicles very very well, but I've put a lot of money to keep my MK4 on the road. Slave cylinder, shift forks, steering rack, power steering pump, and fried fuse boxes are just some of the things that have failed on my car. Not to mention 10-15 other small issues I've had during my 90,000 mile ownership.


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## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

VR6Now said:


> Why thanks but I was not attempting to be fashionable, just accurate. That's your attempt to color the situation to discredit my statements. VW has themselves asserted that they intend to design cars targeted to the NA market. I didn't make the crap up, they did. Thus far, the Jetta, Passat, and the Beetle are the latest product they rolled out. I'm not impressed with some of the choices they made and the equipment they left out.


Sorry if I came off harsh, but I felt like your post was throwing the baby out with the bathwater and a bit dramatic in regards to the current situation. I understand that there have been some changes with the realignment of products that some people don't like. The design blandness lately is one of the things that I think they can adjust (although the designs are wearing on me more and more and I'll take the new Jetta over the last gen chrome shield and bug-eye look). I think a little more detailing with HIDs, LED tails and a few other things will help.



> Too bad that Volkswagen drug thier feet for ten years talking about expanding NA production while even Hyundai and Kia got around to building plants with far less deliberation. If you want to compete with the masses, make decisions just as promptly and maybe you have a chance. They could leverage production anywhere in the world but they are too risk averse to take a chance. As VW improves profitability I wouldn't be the least suprised that we will get more products that increase profitabilty (ie, dull mass market products based upon the lowest common denominator).


I agree completely that VW took their sweet time building a factory here, but given how small their market share is/was here and past failures at a U.S. factory, the decision wasn't easy for them. Profitability is only partially controlled by lowest common denominator products - locally sourced parts and manufacturing with associated tax breaks are also a big part of the equation. The Passat has had no problem winning nearly every comparison test it has been put in against the Accord and Sonata. That didn't happen strictly based on price. If that had been the Jetta, then the outcome likely would have been quite different. I'll agree with you that the Jetta is feeding a lower common customer on the bottom end, but the average transaction price is actually *higher* (over $21k) than the last generation car. So it isn't the base models that are making the sales volume.



> Well, regardless the Jetta is out there. I can't judge it by what you say or what VW has said but what they have done with the car. Impressive. The Vega and Citation were just as popular too starting out. I'm not saying that this is VW's equivalent. I'm just saying that current results may not reflect future prospects. Let's see how the latest incarnation of Jetta does in the long term.
> 
> And a fair amount of those sucesses are conquest sales based upon the price point on a car that has a slim profit margin. Conquest sales are a tricky thing. Many of these were price/value buyers VW just won over and they are the hardest to keep. You will loose them on the next buy if your quality isn't good. VW still has some growing to do in this department. You will loose them in the next buy cycle if you don't have the right product to step up to. You will loose them in the next buy cycle if something cheaper / cooler comes around. You probably can hold a feature buyer longer as long as you have the features to keep them. They may let you slide a little on quality if the overall experience is decent. VW saw an uptick at the begining of the Mk IV Jetta / Golf release but I think the quality wasn't good enough to keep some of these conquest sales. The enthusiast stuck by the brand while some others fled. I think VW can make a price / value play without killing off enthusiast buy offering them better appointed cars at the top of the range.


Like I mentioned above, the average transaction price on the new Jetta is *higher* than the outgoing model at more than $21,000. That's not the bargain basement low-spec models with slimmer margins. When those buyers need to upgrade they will have a number of choices - MQB Jetta which will be better than current Jetta, new Passat which will be face lifted and move to MQB as well or the new B-class mid-size SUV (if they are looking for something like that). In all cases, VW should have no problem moving them into something for the future. 

I understand your point on the better appointed cars (to an extent). It sounds like you're looking for some luxury features at a non-luxury or slight-premium price point. I think VW will continue to push these new models on the upper trim level with increasing levels of features. There is generally more profitability in the higher-trim level cars and if people are willing to buy them, then everyone wins. Right now VW is under intense pressure to show performance based on the recent changes and realignments made. With the new-found profitability will come the ability to push for more features that a smaller subset of the market is willing to pay for. 



> And when are these higher end features coming? I have no doubt that the Passat is a very good car. But there are alot of folks making good cars these days. The Passat is very cost competive and has the same visual lack of distinction that most cars in it's segment have. Accords, Camrys, Malibus, Altimas, and Fusions are all 'nice'. I really don't know if there is enough about the Passat to stand above the crowd besides the optional diesel engine.


My understanding is that Passat will evolve. A hybrid will come and AWD is being looked at as well. There is an identical version of our Passat that was cross developed with China. The Chinese market Passat is a luxury car though and has quite a few additional features we don't current get (along with a bit higher price tag). The good news is that those features (like HID's, LED tails, 12-way power seats, etc., etc.) can be added to our Passat. Some are already planned for the future. Others will have to be scrutinized to determine whether there are enough people willing to pay for them. Competitors stepping up their game will only force the decision further for VW. 




> I do thank you for presenting the article. I'm just not as beholden as you are to VW. I'm in a position where I can be more critical.


I realize that I'm in a position of running a VW enthusiast website, but I am actually quite critical of the company as I would like to see them succeed here. VW often shows me future product before it is released and solicits feedback on an almost weekly basis. I'm at a point now where I find I have to be critical (via substantiated criticism) as I often have only one chance to try and convince the powers that be at VW why I think they should do something. My approach has to temper a logical business answer with an enthusiast viewpoint and I've gotten better over the years at walking the line between the two. There are some good people at Volkswagen of America that understand a bit about where Volkswagen uniquely fits into this market. They have to work within the goals of expanding volume *and* profitability, but they want their core customers to be happy and stay in the brand.

- jamie


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## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> I realize that I'm in a position of running a VW enthusiast website, but I am actually quite critical of the company as I would like to see them succeed here. VW often shows me future product before it is released and solicits feedback on an almost weekly basis. I'm at a point now where I find I have to be critical (via substantiated criticism) as I often have only one chance to try and convince the powers that be at VW why I think they should do something. My approach has to temper a logical business answer with an enthusiast viewpoint and I've gotten better over the years at walking the line between the two. There are some good people at Volkswagen of America that understand a bit about where Volkswagen uniquely fits into this market. They have to work within the goals of expanding volume *and* profitability, but they want their core customers to be happy and stay in the brand.
> 
> - jamie


Jamie 

Very well said and those are words of a wise man. Often I bet it feels like a double edged sword when your asked and you have to think by VW of America. You must think and analyze each situation or suggestions to the "big wigs" of both (A) Business Case/ROI & (B) The hardcore VW owners wanting it all.

Keep it up dude... 

And VW if your reading this; please hire me (or even a call back!) Lord knows I've been applying for jobs at Herndon like a madman


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## Brush (Nov 18, 2002)

Crzypdilly said:


> I'd have to disagree. My MK4 is a love hate relationship. I take care of my vehicles very very well, but I've put a lot of money to keep my MK4 on the road. Slave cylinder, shift forks, steering rack, power steering pump, and fried fuse boxes are just some of the things that have failed on my car. Not to mention 10-15 other small issues I've had during my 90,000 mile ownership.


Not my experience with my MkIV GTI. 100,000mi/160,000Km and only major issues have been a starter motor and a water pump both replaced.
No electrical problems, no window problems, no sunroof problems, no coil-pack problems, or any of the other "known", "common(?)" issues.

I've had the brakes done a couple of times, but that is mostly because my car sits for days, sometimes weeks, at a time. (Ottawa, Canada - parked outdoors at minus 20°C sometimes).

It has some, but not many squeaks and rattles, mostly interior when the air temperature is below zero. Much quieter when the whole car (and the driver) has warmed up. Engine still purrs. And I still go to my original VW dealership where I still get great service on a 10yr-old purchase, so I cannot complain about even that.

:beer:


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## ocellaris (Sep 6, 2009)

I think this all looks great except for the "light weight electrical system" design. My family has owned a few VW and a bunch of my friends have Audis and various VW models. I feel like we finally got to the point where electrical gremlins were gone once the MKV platform launched. Now I am worried they are going to redo all the wiring and bring the gremlins back to gain a meager 3kg weight savings over the entire vehicle


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## peace (May 5, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> Lets be frank - the Golf III and Golf IV were crap boxes with loads of problems....
> 
> -jamie



I love my crap box thank you very much!!!! 

Kudos to VW for simplifying the manufacturing process, reducing cost, and what I always love to see, reducing the weight.


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## KahviVW (Feb 26, 2009)

How will future upgrades to MQB-based models be addressed? At what point are engineers tied down by the dependence on MQB?


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## Skaffles (May 27, 2011)

Locking differential?! :thumbup:


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Sorry if I came off harsh, but I felt like your post was throwing the baby out with the bathwater and a bit dramatic in regards to the current situation.


And the same could be said of your response....a little too dramatic. 



[email protected] said:


> I agree completely that VW took their sweet time building a factory here, but given how small their market share is/was here and past failures at a U.S. factory, the decision wasn't easy for them.


And thier market share was going to remain small without talking some type of action. Business decisions of this magnitude are not easy for anyone but they have to be made. Instead, the decision was deferred. Unfortunately, I speculate they focussed too much on the Westmoreland County, PA fiasco (looking back) instead of what can I do 'Today' (looking forward). How long did it take VW to decide on a U.S. Golf R? We all understand what is involved. You can only crunch the number so many times. At the end, it's either a go or a no go. If you'll loose money on the project, make the call and move on. If you can make a buck or two, call it and go. The material facts (besides currency and market health) are not going to change too much.



[email protected] said:


> The Passat has had no problem winning nearly every comparison test it has been put in against the Accord and Sonata.


That may be true in the automotive press but the customer dictates long-term outcomes. Let's see if this is a long or short term even. First year results can be decieving (Dodge/Plymouth Neon) and VW has risen/fallen in the U.S. before (early 80's, 1992-1993, mid 2000s).



[email protected] said:


> I understand your point on the better appointed cars (to an extent). It sounds like you're looking for some luxury features at a non-luxury or slight-premium price point.


I think I would settle for being able to get a Beetle TDI with a IRS. You can have a gasser with an IRS or a oil burner but you can't have both the diesel and an IRS. Where are the sunroofs? Some turbos have the sport suspension, some don't. It seems rather arbitrary which ones get it. You can find cars with the three pod gauge and no sport suspension or a sport suspension without the three pod gauge. Forget about park assist; If putting some easy stuff together is causing chaos you can forget getting HID lights, IRS, three pod gauge, sport suspension, sunroof, and an manual transmission on a TDI Beetle. Is that too premium to ask for? It would appear the answer is yes if you judge the situation on the ground. Just build it and price it accordingly. Better yet, don't build it and atleast let me order it! All the parts are already in the bin. I understand this creates costs but you pay a price by loosing sales too.



[email protected] said:


> I realize that I'm in a position of running a VW enthusiast website, but I am actually quite critical of the company as I would like to see them succeed here.


You do a better job of being critical of my opinions and offering a defense of VW. That's your right and it's fair for you to offer your opinions. It's just as fair for me to offer a descenting opinion. 

I've spent time actually 'in' the automotive industry so I'm accutely aware of cost, sourcing, sales, and profitibility issues. I don't think I need to be schooled on how it works. I understand that if your not making money, you're dead. VW has spent alot of years in the U.S. not making money and alot of that can not be blamed on too much product content. They make descisions (or fail to) and reap the result of those descisions. When a company is sucessful, its always due to great strategy and planning. When companies are not, it's the consumers, market, labor costs, war, famine, currency fluxuations, government regulation, tarriffs, or commodity cost at fault. It's never the fault of bad decisions. Well I'm here to say that descision making is the chief reason.

I've worked on enough development programs and launched enough products at this stage of the game to earn the right to be critical.



[email protected] said:


> VW often shows me future product before it is released and solicits feedback on an almost weekly basis.


And let's be honest, you'd never be placed in that postion if you were a agitator and a thorn in thier side. There is a certain level of expectation that they have of you. Well, I'm not in that position and feel I can speak more freely. I apprecicate and value your opinion and insight but I don't fully agree. You're right to a certain extent but please allow me to respectfully take a different view.


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## themagellan (Mar 30, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Lets be frank - the Golf III and Golf IV were crap boxes with loads of problems. Golf V/Jetta V got much, much better in terms of quality and things have gotten much better. MQB is a worldwide component platform and has been engineered for the German market first and everything else second. That means at its core, it will be European and still feel like a proper Volkswagen. Let's wait and see what the future holds. Or you can always buy a Toyota.
> 
> -jamie


I would agree with with your statement of crapboxes regarding if you paid for a loaded 2002+ mk4.

However any 2.0 Mk3 or Mk4 is one of the easiest german cars a normal person to maintain and keep running.

If you're speaking even about Mk3's being crap boxes you might as well lump the Mk2's into the same category as a Mk3 in my opinion was just a Mk2 with creature comforts.


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## squishmann (Nov 20, 2003)

*Infotainment*

am i the only one that thinks VW is doing it wrong when it comes to their infotainment system?

when it comes to "touch" features will VW really be able to make a display that feels and functions as good as an iPad or any other leading mobile device? i don't think so. and considering more and more people are using these touch devices and have a certain expectation on how they respond it would be best for VW not to compete with that unless they really want to invest in their display and touch technology 200%.

i think Audi's MMI is a better way to go. you're not reaching over to the dash which pulls you out of your seat and those miliseconds are crucial in reducing distraction. imo MMI is safer, and more intuitive.

it all comes down to the end user experience. the experience has to be rock solid. you don't get that w/ VW's current set up and this just looks like a continuation of it. no one wants fingerprints on their map screen. take advantage of the voice recognition technologies that are out there. you think someone that has an iphone, nokia, or samsung is really going to enjoy your cheap display VW?


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

As much as I don't care for the small screen on the RNS315, I do like the central knob, with the buttons on either side.. With this setup you don't really have to touch the touchscreen.. Now if they would move the knob and buttons down to the console you could operate it with a lot less distraction..


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

GTIDamien_407 said:


> But on side note I think the gas tank placement is stupid, just asking to get ruptured during a side impact collision. Might cause issues for those people who are lowering their cars too.


If this is concerning the tank at the right rear of the MQB platform (it's not clear from the post ...) that is NOT the fuel tank. It's the AdBlue tank for the diesel engine's emission control system. AdBlue is not flammable and therefore the placement of that tank within the vehicle need not be concerned with being hit in a collision.


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## sirAQUAMAN64 (Oct 25, 2004)

Excellent, detailed review of MQB that I enjoyed learning about.

Fantastic work as always Jamie. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Lower it.


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## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Does the MQB make the GTI better? I couldn't care less if it allows the VW to make the GTI and the Tiguan on the same platform. All I care about is the GTI. I'm not a VW accountant. I'm not a VW shareholder. I'm a VW driver.


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Progress, but not that much.*

Most of these changes will save VW money and allow re-contenting. That's great, but how about putting that money into chassis dynamics rather than gadgets? People who want gadgets will pay extra for them. Chassis's are pretty much be set and unchangeable. 

We're into the second decade of the 21st century VW, what's up with the unequal length drive shafts and Mac struts up front? I know they can perform pretty well when tuned correctly, but are still inferior to what came on a civic in the 90's :screwy: . Time to step it up.


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## Ricor72 (Sep 18, 2014)

*2008 Audi A3 Sportback 2.0l FSI Turbo*

Hi, I would like to know if my 2008 A3 ,which I have been really happy with is simply a Golf? And also, does Audi AG develop and manufacture the engine?
If not then, I would seriously consider buying a BMW, or Mercedes for my next car because these cars are actually developed and built by them and I'm sick and tired of being told my A3 is "just a Golf" ( not that its a bad car).I'm sure if Audi AG was a fully autonomous corporation with no connection with VW they would be making some really awesome cars to compete with Mercedes and BMW. I wish for Audi to be like its early days, well known for luxury and quality.http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/confused.gif


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Ricor72 said:


> Hi, I would like to know if my 2008 A3 ,which I have been really happy with is simply a Golf? And also, does Audi AG develop and manufacture the engine?
> If not then, I would seriously consider buying a BMW, or Mercedes for my next car because these cars are actually developed and built by them and I'm sick and tired of being told my A3 is "just a Golf" ( not that its a bad car).I'm sure if Audi AG was a fully autonomous corporation with no connection with VW they would be making some really awesome cars to compete with Mercedes and BMW. I wish for Audi to be like its early days, well known for luxury and quality.http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/confused.gif


You really like your car, so why would you care what others say? 

The pre-2012 new A3s were based on the VW PQ35 platform and called the "8P" model designation. Yes, they were essentially Golfs with a different interior, suspension and exterior. 

The 2.0TFSI motor in the A3 is based on the Audi designed transverse 2.0T and is utilized across the entire VW group.

The new MQB based A3, designated "8V" is based on a modular architecture, not a platform. While it technically shares this architecture with the VW Golf the two cars share only things like motors and transmissions and the distance between the front axle and the pedal box in the cabin. Otherwise the A3 is a completely distinct model with its own suspension, use of aluminum, etc. 

Audi is technically autonomous, with their own board of directors, finances, research and management.


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## Ricor72 (Sep 18, 2014)

Travis Grundke said:


> You really like your car, so why would you care what others say?
> 
> The pre-2012 new A3s were based on the VW PQ35 platform and called the "8P" model designation. Yes, they were essentially Golfs with a different interior, suspension and exterior.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that info. It just irritates me when someone refers to it as just a Golf, ironically Audi developed the first Golf for VW back in the late sixties also the Passat and Polo.


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