# AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible?



## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi, 
i am trying to make my TB idle valve vork on my AEB 1.8t,but i cant find out the pinout for the TB IDLE valve.I wired the tps in,works correcly.
My wiring diagram tells me,that the pin 1 and 8 is for the idle control.Ign switched on with stock ecu on pin 8 is 12v+.
i swichted 12v+ to pin 8 (B4 on the 5 ecu connector),but then the main fuse for ecu was out...
between pin 1 and 8 i cant measure resistance,other diagram tells me that between pin 1 and pin 2 should be 2-300R,but there is no resistance,it is like a wire.
Has someone run MS on this TB?Please help me!


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (radics1)*

So,
pin 1,2 is the same,ign switched on they are grounded.
Pin 8 is 5V+ 
Pin 3 is 12V+,but if i wire there 12V+ with megasquirt,the ecu fuse is blown
Pin 7 is ground,
pin 4 is 5V+ for the tps
Pin 5 is the tps output
pin 6 not used
So i tried to give switsched ground to pin 1,2 (Fidle output) and 5V+ to pin 8,nothing happened.I put then normal ground to pin 1,2, also nothing happened.Idle motor works for sure,with stock ecu,it mooves the plate fine.
I tried it,with running engine i disconnected the 8 pin connector from tb,and measured everything.There was everything the same as just ign switched on.What the hell is with it?I cant control it,and solong i cant move forward with the MS setup...
Please help me,here are several peolpe who has done it before me!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (radics1)*

Here is what I have for the pinout. Shows Pin1 +12v (3 amps - i.e. must use a relay from the Fidle or possible a TIP120) will activate a fast idle, but I am sure you know this is not the closed loop idle control that the TB had on the AEB.
1. actuator +12V/3A (idle control)
2. actuator GND (idle control)
3. throttle closed = pin 7 / open = ∞
4. GND
5. TPS (0,6V closed / 4,3V full)
6. Not connected
7. +5V
8. Not needed (TPS with smaller range)


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (sdezego)*

This pinout is for the AGU,
at pin 7 i have ground for sure,pin 4 5v+,
Pin 1 and 2 is both the same and grounded (possibly with PWM).
What this mean,that TB idle on AEB is not cloosed loop?


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## AutoCrosser11 (Jun 23, 2004)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (radics1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radics1* »_Hi, 
i am trying to make my TB idle valve vork on my AEB 1.8t,but i cant find out the pinout for the TB IDLE valve.I wired the tps in,works correcly.
My wiring diagram tells me,that the pin 1 and 8 is for the idle control.Ign switched on with stock ecu on pin 8 is 12v+.
i swichted 12v+ to pin 8 (B4 on the 5 ecu connector),but then the main fuse for ecu was out...
between pin 1 and 8 i cant measure resistance,other diagram tells me that between pin 1 and pin 2 should be 2-300R,but there is no resistance,it is like a wire.
Has someone run MS on this TB?Please help me!






























I am just running fuel control on my AEG right now but I didn't want to mess with the tb and idle valve. so I left both connected to the stock ecu. stock ecu still controls the idle valve and and I tuned excel enrichment's via map. so far so good. car starts like a champ at 20 degrees F. 
only down fall is the boost control needs tps so I will still need to figure it out eventually.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (AutoCrosser11)*

Hi,
yeah,you see what are the disadvantages of having the stock ecu in place and control only the fuel.I want to fully replace the stock ecu,and i want to run MS only to control everything possible,like boost,idle,fuel,ignition,and,and,and...
If you got the answer feel free to post it here!
TIA!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (radics1)*

The AEB tb I have is the same pinout as OBD2 ABA and VR6 from what I remember. Not sure about the AGU as we never got those here.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (need_a_VR6)*

could you measure the resistance beetwen pin 1 and 2, and 1 and 8 also?Hopely that will help me a lot!
Thanks!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: AEB TB for idle control with MS impossible? (radics1)*

I'll try and find one of these tonight for you.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I posted this in another thread regarding the same topic:
Here is a post from Kevin Black (lugnuts) on the Autronic forum about the stock TPS/idle control:
VAG runs the TPS "backwards" on these throttle bodies. This screws us in several ways if we are trying to use the idle motor.
The 2nd tps is a signal for the throttle only when controlled by the idle system. At idle, the switch going to pin #3 is closed and this tells the ecu to maintain stable timing and fuel.
But, since the switch gets +5v instead of ground, we have to figure out how to make this and the backwards TPS work with the Autronic.
If you do not use the idle motor, all you need to do is wire it up with pin 4 gnd and pin 7 +5v (and pin 5 = tps)
He said he was working on a solution, but not sure if it ever happened.

Here's the pinout as listed in the Autronic forum:
Wiring on the 7 pin throttle body connector:
1. actuator +12V/3A (idle control)
2. actuator PWM (idle control)
3. throttle closed = pin 7 / open = ∞
4. +5V
5. TPS (0.6V closed / 4.3V full)
6. Not connected
7. GND
8. Not needed (TPS with smaller range)

This makes the TPS backwards, switch pin 4 and 7 to use the TPS normally, but it screws up the idle controller as stated above.


_Modified by xr4tic at 3:25 PM 2-18-2009_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

1/2 are the actuator, I don't see why you can't just swap the +/gnd on the tps and use it. That's how I did it on the bench and it worked fine (OBD2 ABA TB with MS). MS does not use an idle switch at all, so that's not an issue. 
I'll have the OBD2 VR6 TB wired into my MS fully in a few weeks if folks want a full solution available.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Between 1 and 2 i measured zero resistance,so i could not imagine that is my idle motor.I will try it to make work,but i am afraid i will blow another fuse.If it works altrough,i will be far happy.
Have you measured resistance between 1 and 2?
Greetings!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

I will have to check a tb for that, and the Bentley for the rest. I've had the one tb on my car for a while so I haven't looked at it in a bit.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (radics1)*

here is the wiring diagram from my AEB.You can see,in the idle there is only pin 1 2 and 8....
http://msruns.com/download/file.php?id=5915


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

1/2 is the actuator, not sure what 8 is. The windings of the actuator won't have a ton of resistance. You might want to try to hook it right up to +12/gnd and see if you can get it to physically move.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Hi,
I will try it tomorrow.It is still working fine with stock ecu,i would wonder if the MS is not able to handle it.
I dont want tonns of resistance,but certainly more than 2-3 R 
Autodata tells me there should be 2-300R.Well, i give a try for it,probably with fused input power...
Thanks for helping me a lot! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

No problem, keep us posted. If you do get it moving be sure to make sure you start with it in warmup only mode and watch the plate to make sure it's doing what you think it's doing. I think with no signal it gets left slightly open and then goes closed and open again.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Ok,but i want it to run closed loop.
Here in MS the closed loop means,that it is watching the rpm only,not the TPS opening,i am right?I think the other TPS is for that used in oem system.


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## [email protected] (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: (radics1)*

Closed loop primarily watches the RPM, but it also uses throttle position for the Dashpot Adder function. The Dashpot Adder adds a little bit of extra opening if the throttle suddenly snaps shut to reduce the likelihood of the car stalling.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

You can use closed loop but make sure open loop moves the throttle the way you think it will before closed loop.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Hi,
it is working now! I want to run it in cloosed loop mode,because if i use pwm warmup,and i move the throttle,the idle motor holds it in position.
In closed loop there are many variables,and i dont know how to set it up properly.If the temperature was abowe 90 degrees celsius,it doesnt change anything.
It idles then at 0% tps with 820 rpm,a bit low for me.
If you have a manual for closed loop or any infos,i would be happy,if you tell me some hints!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

http://www.msextra.com/manuals...Fidle
Under closed loop mode. Make sure the motor is well tuned first.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

There are just little info,in MS2 there are many other variables.I search in the msextra forum too,hopely i will find what i am searching for.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

There is a big idle writeup in the MS2 extra development forum.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

cant find it...do you have the link for it?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=30441
You need to be logged in to view it.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Thanks!Today i will upgrade to the 2.1.0 extra code,someone telld me,it has many fixes to the idle control.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (radics1)*

Now on 2.1.0 Firmware i have idle,so i was trying the car out.I noticed with my ignition map knock at low rev/ high load.At 1200 rpm in 3rd gear,and put the pedal down,i noticed knock until it reached the 2000-2300 rpm.
For the test rides boost is only 0,2 bar.I had az 1500 rpm and 120 kpa 22 degree advance,i pulled it back to 18,but still knocking a bit.Has anyone a suitable map for the 1.8t?It is bone stock at the time...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

You getting the knock info from the stock ecu still or an MS knock circuit?


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

No,stock ecu is not in place,and ms is not ready to sense knock.
I hear the knock,it is knocking definiately. I will build the knock circuit,or it would be better to buy a GM Knock module,but i dont know,if here in europe wich vechile has it if one has.How much is a GM Knock module in the US?
I could buy a unit from viatrack,but the postage is high.Anyone using the MS circuit?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (radics1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radics1* »_
I could buy a unit from viatrack,but the postage is high.Anyone using the MS circuit?

I am using the viatrack KnockSense with very good luck. In fact, I swear by it.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

Post up an msq and try and take a log, hit spacebar when it happens to mark it. 
I wouldn't think 18deg at 120kpa would knock. 
Have you verified that your MS timing matches timing read on the engine?


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## DonSupreme (Apr 11, 2006)

Please post your idle control settings.
Screenshot or .msq file.
Also, does the engine consistently idle where you set it? How well is the megasquirt controlling the idle?


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (DonSupreme)*

Well now it idles well if engine hot.It is a bit higher,about 1000 rpm (is should be 850),but now i want to tune the ve table well,before i mess up further with idle.Without idle control i had about 6-800 rpm,changing randomly...
I will post my msq in the evening.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I will to look it,i have the stroboscope for it.Where is the timing mark on this engine?Flywheel or on serpentine belt side?There is less place...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

Not sure where it is on the AEB but most transverse cars are on the flywheel/pressure plate. You may have to make your own tdc mark, check for it at tdc.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Here is my basic msq,take a look.

http://msruns.com/download/file.php?id=5925


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

I would run richer around 100kpa through 200kpa, even n/a cars I shoot for 12.7-12.8 afr before I hit the dyno. I'd shoot for the same around 100kpa and richen up into the 12.3 range up top. The timing looks decent around boost transition but you will need to take timing out up at full boost, 1.8t's sometimes run no advance up there, and even fire atdc.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Now the car runs only on 0,2 bar boost,max 0,3 when it spikes in.Thats only for tuning it in the light load range.If it is there good,i will give it boost.
Do you think i should go for 12.8 az 100kpa? With stock ecu it is there near stoich...
No advance at high boost?I would then have there no power.
Please keep in mind,it is a k03 stock turbo,what is only capable of around 200 chp,it is not a big turbo conversion.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

Yes, that rich around 100kpa I can't see how it's different then an n/a car in that respect. The stock ecu runs much leaner, but takes a ton of timing out, you'd have to look at logs but that's how it works. 
No advance at high boost, the turbo is so inefficient that it makes a ton of heat. Lower boost and more timing can and will make more power with how hard that turbo is working around 1.4bar.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i changed it a bit,please take a look.if afr is good,i have to tune ve and advance table too.
How affects advance the afr?Higher advance higher fuel required?
http://msruns.com/download/file.php?id=5926

Iwill run big FMIC,so the temperatures will be some less


_Modified by radics1 at 1:07 PM 2-24-2009_


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (radics1)*

Anyone knows how to modify the stoboscope to use with COP?Normally it it triggered from the HT cable..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

Yes if you try and run stoich you will have to run less advance because you'll hit the knock limit. Richen it up and you can add more timing, and you'll make more power there. The reason the factory ran it like that was for emissions and fuel economy. 
If your light has a clamp on it just hold/tape that open and lay it on top of the COP, move it around, etc. You might be able to get something.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I want have fuel economy in the light cruise area,and best power in the upper ranges.Only thing i dont want:to much fuel at boost,and poor efficiency due the unburned gasoline.
In the future i will have meth injection.How does it affect to the lifecycle of WBO?And will my afr readings be off?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

Shouldn't make a big difference for the life of the wideband, only lead really messes them up after a while. As far as AFR, really depends on the meth/h20 mix and how much you're injecting. Most people don't even worry about the change in afr from the volume of meth as there will be some air displaced as well.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

At the weekend i will check the timing,and tune the VE table ,to keep EGO corr in the 1-2% range.
Can i see the knock with a scope (Software with audio input)?
It would be great,if i find out what this "knock" is,what i hear at low revs/high load.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (radics1)*

I've never done that but if you have a scope it's worth trying.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Today my Bosch 211 died with the stock ecu...It is the fault,i think,because MS doesnt use it,and with Bips and MS car runs well.
Here is so a f*cking module 150-200$,so far the pice of a MS.Well i think it is time to give MS the all day control over the car....


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