# o Sh!t . Might be time for a clutch install. . .



## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

*o man, It Might be time for a clutch install. . . questions inside*

Ok so 01 TT 225Q 80K miles 
in high gears the rpms just raise without much effort and no much gain in MPH
must be the clutch, info on clutch install and parts/tools needed ??
Thx Guys
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by jason bouchard at 6:15 PM 5-1-2010_


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

*Might be time for a clutch install. . . (jason bouchard)*

looking at clutch kits, and wondering which one to get that WONT give me any chatter or any extra , i wouldnt mind a stiffer clutch pedal though. . 
Alot of different prices going around all with flywheels. . .
also which would be better for a mildly modded car (stage 2, intake/exhaust maybe downpipe later)
Thx guys


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## sims159915 (Jan 24, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I have the 19lb single mass steel flywheel and OEM clutch and it is fantastic. Yes there is some chatter at idle, but I cant hear it inside the car. I also have EVERY bolt on possible on my 225


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

any more ideas, any DIY for the clutch on an AWD TT ?? ive looked but couldnt find anything 

Thx


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

i have a spec stage 2 clutch for sale if you want it.. it will hold anything bolted onto for a 225 TTQ and then some. 

I dont need it cuz it just cannot hold my power down, since its well beyond stage 2 power atm. 

i dont honestly recommend a single mass flywheel as it will not do much for you with a stock with some bolt ons. 

save the $$ and get an electronic boost controller to play around with or an FMIC 

it iwll help mitigate the costs for you. 

let me know and ill shoot some pics at you.


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

Does your clutch work with the stock dual mass flywheel? 
I'd like some info on it, as im in the market as well.


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## Oh_My_VR6 (Sep 6, 2004)

DurTTy said:


> i have a spec stage 2 clutch for sale if you want it.. it will hold anything bolted onto for a 225 TTQ and then some.
> 
> I dont need it cuz it just cannot hold my power down, since its well beyond stage 2 power atm.
> 
> ...


 This is rather weird advice. Share that nugget of knowledge as to the physical benefits of running a single mass flywheel as compared to a dual mass?


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

I hear the single mass (more traditional clutch on other cars) is lighter in weight. . . So less rotational mass= faster spinning up and better, also nicer/easier for heal toe and rev matching. . . 

The downsides ive heard so far is the single mass as being lighter always may not be as balanced when it gets a lot lighter 
the other downside i have Heard is that in being lighter it also doesn't dampen vibration as well, and makes noise and can Chatter. . . 

I have never heard chatter, so im not sure what to expect. . . anyone with a sound clip or vid ? lol 

Again this is all speculation as I have no Hands on experience with VW/Audi trannys/clutches 

My clutch still works but I know its going because highway speeds (5th and 6th gears) all slip. . . 

Im looking for more pedal pressure/hardness if possible. . . but im not going more then bolt ones/tune/FMIC 

anyone with a DIY for clutch install on AWD TT 6speed ?? 
I might attempt this B!tch myself 
Thx guys


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## Murderface (Nov 13, 2006)

> I have never heard chatter, so im not sure what to expect. . . anyone with a sound clip or vid ? lol


 Let me put it this way. I was meeting up with a guy who wanted to buy my old shortblock. He pulled up in a GTI and at first, I thought he had a TDI swapped into it. Then I put two and two together and thought 'oh, he spun a rod bearing and that's why he needs my block' 

Turns out he had a 9lb flywheel. It just chattered so loud that his car sounded like a loud diesel or a 1.8T with a spun bearing. 

Clutch job is pretty straight forward...disconnect the shift cables, slave cyl line and two electrical conncetors. Then you have to unbolt the tie rods/control arms/drop the subframe and unbolt the driveshaft etc. Unbolt the bell housing and then remove the pressure plate and make sure you have an impact and a set of 12pt bits for the flywheel bolts. From there, reinstall everything and MAKE SURE THE DRIVESHAFT IS BALANCED else you'll be replacing that in no time....


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

okay sounds like I def don't want that Chatter then, i hate the sound of a spun bearing, makes my stomach hurt (bad memories) 

what do you mean the drive shaft balanced ? i noticed the emphasis on this so i wanted to make sure i knew what you meant.


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

As a rule of thumb, chatter increases as a single mass flywheel gets lighter. I'm an EE, not a MechE so I can't prove why but I believe it has to do with the less material, and of course different (Aluminum, Chromoly, etc.) material will flex differently and resonate acoustically when the clutch is engaged at low rpm. Basically it isn't harmonically balanced. Dual mass flywheels actually balance everything out harmonically by an interesting dampening spring between the two plates. 

I prefer single mass. Dual mass, IMO has less feel and also doesn't have as predictable pedal grab that a single mass does. This is what my big ol' left leg feels so don't take this as the truth. I'm not a fan of those light weight jobbies either. Too much chatter makes it feel like the pedal has a long engagement point. To clear this up, I feel like the clutch is engaged, but it is only making contact due to the clutch and flywheel oscillating at different frequencies, therefore they sort of touch loosely, but they aren't connected. This happens so fast that it makes it feel like the clutch is engaged but in reality there is still anywhere from 1/2" to 1" left of pedal travel before making full contact. The heavier flywheels reduce chatter, which fundamentally remedies the oscillation problem which minimizes the engagement point feel in the pedal. You just drop revs slower. Overall I go with the lightest STEEL flywheel I can get, and since my lovely car has a stage 4 POS clutch in it, I'll be going with the Sachs 240mm kit with a 16.5 lb single mass steel flywheel relatively soon. I call it my graduation present to myself. 

Again, the above explanation of the flywheel is poorly written. If it was a circuit, semiconductor, filter, or comm system I could give an A+ description, but alas I suck at Vibrations, and all mechanics for that matter.


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

I opted for the the 21 or 22lb single mass from fourseasonstuning to go with their st 1+ kit. Chatters 80% of the time. I effin hate it.


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

Damn this sucks, i want the direct feel of the single mass(its also cheaper too) but i dont wanna hear chatter or vibrations . . . we gotta team up and figure out the differences in chatter of the flywheel depending on weight, material, and any other factors that may determine the vibration/chatter


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

from what I researched before I bought mine, every one is hit and miss. There's people running 9lb Fidenza's with no chatter and then someone else with the same setup and it chatters. I thought I would be safe with anything over 19-20lbs but I guessed wrong. Maybe because mine was made by fourseasonstuning instead of a company like LUK or Fidenza..


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

Oh_My_VR6 said:


> This is rather weird advice. Share that nugget of knowledge as to the physical benefits of running a single mass flywheel as compared to a dual mass?


 im saying that for a stock car with bolt ons, daily driven with no serious track time, the Single mass flywheel will most likely annoy the heck outa you. 

From a performance stand point, yes a SM LW FW will perform better, but for the OP, the idea was to save some $$ and just change the clutch disc + slave cylinder and re-machine the OEM FW --- most cost effective way to get back on the road and hold more power than OEM 




--- for the most part, almost all single mass flywheels (LW FW) on the 02M drivetrain will make noise in idle. "chatter" is just the idler gear making noise, it wont "chatter" while the car is engaged in gear -----


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

I don't think the dual mass flywheels can be re-surfaced. That's what multiple mechanics have told me. 

PDubbs - as I understand it, the dual mass flywheel isn't for balancing - it's for vibration dampening. Many companies will offer a clutch that mates to the stock dual mass flywheel (spec, and clutchmaster, and I think Southbend, too for example) AND offer a clutch that mates up to a single mass flywheel. The latter have springs in the ?hub? that will dampen like the the stock flywheel does, w/o the added rotational weight on the flywheel. Plus, now that the flywheel is a "single mass," it can be resurfaced to mate up to a new clutch (when it's needed). 

Been doing research, too - my clutch is slipping in 4, 5, and 6 (and I only have 73K...I blame the previous owner, cause I'm not hard on the car). I think I'm going to go w/ Southbend clutch and single mass flywheel.


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

DnA-TT said:


> PDubbs - as I understand it, the dual mass flywheel isn't for balancing - it's for vibration dampening. Many companies will offer a clutch that mates to the stock dual mass flywheel (spec, and clutchmaster, and I think Southbend, too for example) AND offer a clutch that mates up to a single mass flywheel. The latter have springs in the ?hub? that will dampen like the the stock flywheel does, w/o the added rotational weight on the flywheel. Plus, now that the flywheel is a "single mass," it can be resurfaced to mate up to a new clutch (when it's needed).


 ^^^ This is a much better explanation than mine. Harmonic vibration was what I was thinking, but not what I wrote!


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

okay so i talked with a friend who works at aamco and he said 1700 with parts (oem stock stuff) 

He said the only other stuff he will install is centerforce. . . Does anyone have any experince with centerforce on a TT ? 

Also is there any stronger clutches that will work that are OEM ?? (ive heard somethign about a vr6 or something) 

basicly i will be changing out the clutch and flywheel and want a stronger holding replacement. . . either OEM or centerforce 

Thanks guys


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

DnA-TT said:


> I don't think the dual mass flywheels can be re-surfaced. That's what multiple mechanics have told me.


 you are correct, im thinking of 02J trans. 

but non the less, a lot of Mk4 1.8t guys i know switch clutch only and run the old FW with no issues. 
when you take the assembly off, its up to due diligence to determine how usable the OEM Flywheel really is. 

i know of 1 person who did get slight machining on the FW to remove buildup from the spent clutch, no problems for him, but its at your own risk. 

Once again, due to the idler gear design, it will make "added" gear noise @ idle regardless of the weight or material of the FW -- 
the problem is, how do you know you can live with it? wont find out till its on, and at that point its too late  

LWFW is definitely not for show and shine or don't expect regular driving conditions out of it either. 

If you are looking for a Clutch Setup, i would advise you to veer away from SB kits. some pple in the R32 word have done quite a bit of nasty damage with those setups. get in touch with Arnold @ Pagparts or James of Fourseasonstuning.com --- they are pretty helpful in decision making. 

i personally went with CNStg3+ Full face Feramic Sprung Disc with Steel SMFW, Arp FW bolts, ARP PP Bolts, ARP Ring Gear bolts for Assurance and even with that im not going the push max power of the clutch for D2D driving -- 02M Quattro does not like exploding clutches when abused beyond intended use


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

okay my two options are centerforce or OEM . . . if i stick with an OEM clutch I will either strick with the stock flywheel on the car, or a new oem flywheel. 
If i go with a centerforce i will use the kit suppled but as it sounds a dual mass is the only way to go to keep things quiet. . . 

any ideas ? anyone try a Centerforce on a TT ? 
Thx


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## bigblack718 (Jan 27, 2010)

what you guys think about the south bend clutches aka dxd Apr is selling dxd southbend clutches and they look pretty good anybody have an info


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

come on guy ??


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

Chatter sounds like you dropped a fork into your tranny. you really hear it when in neutral. clutch in, it's gone. it truely sounds like something HAS to be broken in the car. if you're stock turbo........go Dual Mass! the fear of a dual mass on a BT is that since the two pieces of the DMFW are heald together by rubber........you can rip that rubber apart under power and send pieces of flywheel thru your tranny


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

Jason - if I'm not mistaken, Centerforce offers a clutch that will mate up to a DM flywheel (i.e. non-sprung hub). It sounds like it has a little better torque rating than the stock SACHS clutch. You will be taking your chances with the stock flywheel - if there's a lot of buildup on it from the used up clutch, it cannot be resurfaced *easily* (though, I guess some have done it successfully). I would plan on purchasing a new OEM flywheel. They're about $400+. 

I'm still wavering...still gotta decide. Gonna pull the trigger today and buy it today.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

bigblack718 said:


> what you guys think about the south bend clutches aka dxd Apr is selling dxd southbend clutches and they look pretty good anybody have an info


 yea stay away from southbend and Spec --- not to say large failure rate-- just saying that they are jsut using oem stuff with diff friction plates = recipie for disaster on high TQ cars 

if you getting a SB clutch, i woudl be weary of the "claimed" #s and dont push your luck or that clutch kit will be pushing your Account Balance South  

IIRC -- ceterforce = Clutch Masters under diff name ?? im not 100% on that .. jsut off the top of my head... 

CM makes good products and are known for quality, CM Stg 4 was my other option for consideration, but CM can be really aggressive for my taste in some applications. 

I beleive-- APR STG 3 or 3+ for Quattro TT uses Clutch Masters Stg 3 with Alum Flywheel


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## 225TTRoadster (Oct 24, 2007)

southbend setups are widely used in this area and highly prefered over spec. 

but if you are not going to beat the hell out of the clutch setup (track etc...) just go with something closer to OE. 

and for SURE BAIL on the DM flywheel.


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

Decided on a Clutchmaster "stage 1" with a steel flywheel.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

if you are grabbing the CM stg 1 setup off ebay... 

make sure you are getting the Quattro version... 
last thing you need is to get the 02J version and realize it after the car is apart


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

Probably going to get it from Pagparts.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

Arnold is a nice guy, very soft spoken lol. 

after speaking with him, he is definately a CM fan. 
for a Stg1 with Flywheel, consider ClutchNet as well, more cost effective alternative.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

With 80k miles, I recommend REPLACING the flywheel with whatever you want. I had my original OEM FW machined when I put a south bend clutch it. After a year I developed shifting problems and we now believe the dual mass started to fail.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

JettaRed said:


> With 80k miles, I recommend REPLACING the flywheel with whatever you want. I had my original OEM FW machined when I put a south bend clutch it. After a year I developed shifting problems and we now believe the dual mass started to fail.


when was the last time you changed the gear oil in the trans? 

"shifting problem" is really generic.


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

I'm having trouble finding any that use the stock flywheel. Anyone have any links to replacement performance clutches?

Its really becoming an issue finding them. . . 


Also does Sachs( the OEM manufacturer) does it make any performance or "stronger then stock" clutches? 

Thanks guys


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## 225TTRoadster (Oct 24, 2007)

jason bouchard said:


> I'm having trouble finding any that use the stock flywheel. Anyone have any links to replacement performance clutches?
> 
> Its really becoming an issue finding them. . .
> 
> ...


I do not believe Sachs makes aftermarket clutches. I am not sure why you are trying to find stock FW information. Do yourself a favor and rid of it. seriously.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

225TTRoadster said:


> I do not believe Sachs makes aftermarket clutches. I am not sure why you are trying to find stock FW information. Do yourself a favor and rid of it. seriously.



Sachs makes performance clutches, ITS UNDER THE NAME OF ZF SACHS/SRE 

Great product, (SRE makes F1 Racing clutches for top teams) but dont expect to get it into North America in less than 30-45 Days, plus the Duty will be ludicrous. --- price is ok, around $600

If you have a stock motor with or witout bolt ons, just ebay a Sachs or Valeo Clutch kit with the OEM flywheel for $350 or w/e and call it a day 

at most i would do a stage 1 or stg2 clutch is overkill it on a 1.8T k03/k04-02x -- just my opinion. 

In the World of 02M Quattro, aftermarket clutch kits are $$$$$$ and the damage on failed kits is even more $$$$$$

I suggest you email [email protected] get some more details-- if you want to go with aftermarket.


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

the reason i want to keep the stock flywheel is i REALLLY dont want noise/chatter, how much of a feel difference (pedal feel)is the non-stock flywheel ? if i can get one that will not make noises i'm sold


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

DurTTy said:


> ...I suggest you email [email protected] get some more details-- if you want to go with aftermarket.


There is no "s" in fourseasontuning.com.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

jason bouchard said:


> the reason i want to keep the stock flywheel is i REALLLY dont want noise/chatter, how much of a feel difference (pedal feel)is the non-stock flywheel ? if i can get one that will not make noises i'm sold


All single mass FW will add gear noise at idle, its unavoidable. 

just stick to the OEM kit from Valeo or Sachs, they are rated to higher HP/TQ levels than a bolt on 1.8T 225/180 can throw at it -- there are a million listings on ebay for a solid price .. complete kit. 


btw higher pedal pressure is from the clutch itself not the FW, has to do with the pressure of the fluid in the hydraulic lines when engaging/dis-engaging the clutch (not the flywheel) -- at least my understanding of it.

and yea my bad its [email protected]


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

DurTTy said:


> btw higher pedal pressure is from the clutch itself not the FW, has to do with the pressure of the fluid in the hydraulic lines when engaging/dis-engaging the clutch (not the flywheel) -- at least my understanding of it.


Its from the pressure plate, and the associated clamp load or stifness of the tines on the plate, as your throwout bearing pushes on it.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

wrparrish said:


> Its from the pressure plate, and the associated clamp load or stifness of the tines on the plate, as your throwout bearing pushes on it.


:thumb: there ya go.


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

well i want a harder pressure plate that will work with a stock flywheel if possible


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

Southbend offers a Stage 2 or 3 clutch that works with the stock flywheel. But, it seems people here don't like them. I put Southbends in both of my A4s and my TT, but I am having problems with the TT. Don't know if its the clutch or the flywheel. I did not replace the flywheel with the clutch (kept the stock one) and I have over 90,000 miles on the car.

Never had a problem with them in the A4s, but then again, I replace the flywheels when I replaced the clutches.


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## BLK225TT (Oct 25, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VALE...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

So would this valeo kit be ok? or would it still have the chatter?


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

Never heard of Valeo clutches before. The only Valeo I've heard of makes headlights and electrical components.


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

Clutch goes in tomorrow. Car will probably be at the shop a couple days. I'll give impressions in due time.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

So, what clutch did you get?


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## Oh_My_VR6 (Sep 6, 2004)

JettaRed said:


> Never heard of Valeo clutches before. The only Valeo I've heard of makes headlights and electrical components.


 
It's the same company that makes headlights, blower motors etc.. :thumbup: 

Valeo and Sachs clutches are actually inter-changeable. I've had Sachs clutches come with Valeo discs and vice versa. 

The price in the ebay auction isn't all that stellar, but to answer your question, you will get a slight chatter while slipping out into reverse and 1st. It's really not that big of a deal though. I plan on going with a full Southbend setup myself however.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

Does the chatter diminish after a while?


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

i went with oem stock and its doing pretty well, broke it in and now it launches Great and chirps 2nd hard


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## Oh_My_VR6 (Sep 6, 2004)

JettaRed said:


> Does the chatter diminish after a while?


 Unfortunately no. I've had many lightened flywheels both steel and aluminum and they all rattle in reverse and first, regardless of mileage. The absolute worst was the 14lb. Eurospec Steel flywheel I put in my 95 GTI VR6. That bitch would rattle your teeth out in reverse!


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

> So, what clutch did you get?


I went with a Clutchmaster "Stage 1" with a steel flywheel. I bought the two from PagParts at a great deal. My mechanic said it's pretty much the stock pressure plate, he liked the flywheel and the clutch material.
Turns out, a seal was leaking a little transmission fluid into/onto the clutch. So the clutch itself wasn't the culprit, but it certainly wasn't usable again. I have some Redline synth fluid in there now.

I put 25 miles on it tonight, just cruising around in different conditions. 
Initial impressions: :thumbup:
Whoa does this clutch grab - initial "bite" is big; 
Nice pedal feel, but it's just a bit softer than stock; 
Whoa, my car feels freakin' fast. Clutchmaster doesn't say anything about a break-in period for my clutch, but I wasn't going to beat on a brand new clutch. Still, at part throttle, my car is MOVING. I don't know if it's the clutch actually being able to hold, the lighter flywheel, or both. But it feels good!


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## sheetmetal (Dec 1, 2005)

DnA-TT said:


> I went with a Clutchmaster "Stage 1" with a steel flywheel. I bought the two from PagParts at a great deal. My mechanic said it's pretty much the stock pressure plate, he liked the flywheel and the clutch material.
> Turns out, a seal was leaking a little transmission fluid into/onto the clutch. So the clutch itself wasn't the culprit, but it certainly wasn't usable again. I have some Redline synth fluid in there now.
> 
> I put 25 miles on it tonight, just cruising around in different conditions.
> ...


Glad to hear your initial impressions are positive! OK just a few quick questions:
What is the weight of our stock DM FW for the 225? How much does your steel FW weigh? Has chatter plagued your setup at all? Lastly how's the pedal feel after a few more miles on it? :beer::beer:


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

sheetmetal said:


> Glad to hear your initial impressions are positive! OK just a few quick questions:
> What is the weight of our stock DM FW for the 225? How much does your steel FW weigh? Has chatter plagued your setup at all? Lastly how's the pedal feel after a few more miles on it? :beer::beer:


Can't recall the weight of the stock flywheel. 24lbs? The steel flywheel was quoted at 19lbs. There's definitely more gear noise with 1st gear, and (as expected) chatter at idle. Put about 20 more miles on it this morning and the pedal feels good. I'm getting used to the initial bite/grab (though I bucked a couple times this morning ... I'm not a teenager learning to drive, I swear! :laugh. Not a big deal.


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## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

Ooops...
Clutch pedal feel is good. Like I said, maybe a little lighter than stock. The throw feels a little shorter, too. But, it's not soft like a Corolla - it's appropriately sporty and going to be nice for daily driving.


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