# Fiat to kill off DGC



## VWroutanvanman (Feb 12, 2011)

*Fiat to kill off DGC?*

Here's the article:

According to Automotive News, the Chrysler Group will kill off one of its bread-and-butter minivans – the Dodge Grand Caravan – sometime during the 2013 calendar year. This will leave only the Chrysler Town & Country to do minivan battle for the Pentastar automaker. Curiously, through September of 2011, the Grand Caravan has actually outsold the more expensive Town & Country by almost 14,000 units.

Getting rid of the Grand Caravan is apparently part of Chrysler's move to eliminate dealership duplication, a plan that was started under the company's previous owners, Cerberus Capital Management. In addition to the Dodge van, the Avenger sedan will also be killed off when the Chrysler 200 replacement arrives in 2013. (Like the Grand Caravan and Town & Country, the Avenger and 200 are nearly identical underneath the skin.)

Automotive News suggests that the Grand Caravan and Avenger will be replaced by a single future Dodge crossover that will be based on a Fiat platform. The next-generation Town & Country is expected to arrive sometime in 2014.

In 2008, Cerebus Capital hatched a plan called Genesis that was to do two things: one, make all dealerships to be Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, and Ram dealers with all brands under one roof, and second, to eliminate duplication of models (to avoid customer confusion!). The bankrupcy and subsequent purchase by Fiat delayed Genesis some, and now Fiat appears to be putting the plan into action.

Where does that leave VW and our Routans? Lets hope that a van based on the Passat platform comes to be (and with a diesel, please. 2-tone 21-window version optional).


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## juvefan20 (Mar 24, 2001)

Something does not sound right about this. :screwy:


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## luckeydoug1 (Feb 11, 2001)

VWroutanvanman said:


> ...
> Where does that leave VW and our Routans? Lets hope that a van based on the Passat platform comes to be (and with a diesel, please. 2-tone 21-window version optional).


Yes, yes, yes and yes! May I also add a request for more exciting colors?


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## VWroutanvanman (Feb 12, 2011)

*Overseas sales*

I suppose that if one of the vans had to go, it would be the Dodge, as the CT&C is also sold in Europe as the Chrysler Voyager, and the Lancia Voyager in some markets. Rest in peace Dodge Grand Caravan. Maybe the CT&C will be available with the diesel they sell in Europe when the new model comes out in 2014. As for more exciting colors, the 2012 vans are available with the red color called Redline, and as there are only six colors shown for the 2012s, more colors will probably be added.


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

VWroutanvanman said:


> Here's the article:
> 
> According to Automotive News, the Chrysler Group will kill off one of its bread-and-butter minivans – the Dodge Grand Caravan – sometime during the 2013 calendar year. This will leave only the Chrysler Town & Country to do minivan battle for the Pentastar automaker. Curiously, through September of 2011, the Grand Caravan has actually outsold the more expensive Town & Country by almost 14,000 units.
> 
> ...


If/when this is to take place, the contract between Chrysler and VW will have been completed and VW will have their own van again. I don't see this as being a good move by Chrysler, they just seperated the two vans with little to no overlap (where Dodge maxes out, the Chrysler picks up as it should be.) Also, who doesn't associate the Caravan when they think minivan (like it or hate it.) As for a crossover vehicle, they already have the Journey at this size. Just my $.02


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## 58kafer (Jun 27, 2007)

VWroutanvanman said:


> I suppose that if one of the vans had to go, it would be the Dodge, as the CT&C is also sold in Europe as the Chrysler Voyager, and the Lancia Voyager in some markets. Rest in peace Dodge Grand Caravan. Maybe the CT&C will be available with the diesel they sell in Europe when the new model comes out in 2014. As for more exciting colors, the 2012 vans are available with the red color called Redline, and as there are only six colors shown for the 2012s, more colors will probably be added.


I like how the euro market has the Chrysler Voyager, a recycled name from the Plymouth Voyager, that was killed off years ago, now bye-bye to the DGC. I'm sure even if they kill the DGC, Chrysler will fill that market with a comprable trim level, you can't kill a name and just forget those sales numbers and expect everyone to splurge and step up the the T&C higer trim levels.

Don't hold your breath for a T&C with a diesel in the US. Look at the vehicles that are pushing the diesel envelope, they're european. Ford has an awesome little diesel (in europe) that gets incredible mileage, but they won't bring it to the US. We're so F'd up over here that we need to get off fossil fuels, the last thing people want to do is buy a diesel. I for one would rather a diesel over an electric car or a hybrid, what a waste of money. I just walked infront of a Ford F250 Lariat with a 6.7L Powerstroke, it was running and it was quite possibly quieter than a gas engine, yes it was diesel (very proud badging on the sides), only thing I heard was the turbo spool up when the guy pulled away, made my Cummins Turbo sound like a it was ready to grenade. I still love the rattle of the 5.9 Cummins though!

Now would be the time for VW to be gearing up for their van to hit the market when this all happens, bring it with a TDI, and it better be the same size as the Routan. They know what the pricing and options will need to be at for people to jump at them. They also know the areas of improvements too.

Sorry for the rant, not directed at you VWroutanvanman:beer:


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## taxman100 (Apr 30, 2011)

My understanding is there will be a smaller minivan/crossover for Dodge based upon a Fiat design. They needed to get rid of the DGC in order that there is room price-wise under the Town & Country for their new little van.

I see Kia coming out the big winner here. 

Volkswagen will most likely kill the Routan after the 2013 model year, and I really don't see them making the investment in their own minivan platform due to cost and difficulty of designing a good minivan. 

Toyota, Honda and Chrysler - everyone else either tried and failed, or are a small part of the market.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm no expert in this, but I'd be surprised if the Chrysler diesel could meet 50-state emissions requirements for cars. The focus in the U.S. on tailpipe emissions are also biased against diesels, so it'd be difficult unless they can get the minivan classified as a light-truck, a la Sprinter, which I doubt they could (or would) do.

If VW puts a TDI in their next minivan, I do hope they go with a 4 cylinder option. If a 4-cylinder gasser can power a Sienna (although a bit underpowered), then the added torque of a diesel as well as the addition of a turbo should allow a 2.0L TDI motor to be plenty sufficient for a minivan, and still get in the mid-30s or better in MPGs. Just my $0.02.


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

http://dodgeforum.com/articles/2011...yone-in-america-really-care-industrynews.html


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

CARAVAN DISCONTINUED:
Not going to happen. If it did, Chrysler would get what the deserve. It would be a huge mistake to just throw in the towel on that much of the market. It is clear that Chrysler was streamlining their platforms by building the Caravan up to the T&C level and not overlapping trims. That was a smart move. Chrysler would have never separated the trim levels if they were contemplating a discontinued Caravan. They would have to increase the trim levels of the T&C to accomodate, which doesn't appear to be the case. Bad info as far as I'm concerned. 

ROUTAN DISCONTINUED:
Based upon the lack of upgrades, the poor sales (price slashing), lack of marketing, etcetera, I believe that Routan's life is coming to an end. I wish it weren't so, but it seems like it never took off like VW hoped and they may very well be losing money on the deal. I suspect a 2013 model is the best we can hope for. Unfortunate from my perspective. I really like mine and I would buy another no question.

TDI VAN:
I wish! Doesn't look like it. I have followed diesels for a long long time. I had a 12 valve cummins for over 200k. There's always been talk of an F150 diesel, 1/2 ton diesels, SUV diesels, etcetera, etcetera. They never come to fruition. And that was when diesel fuel was cheaper than gas. I just don't see it happening. The sofisticated buyer that would appreciate the value of a diesel are too few to market such a model. VW TDI buyers are most often repeat customers that get it. It's hard to break into the market with a diesel in the U.S. It's unchartered waters in the van segment. At least for now.


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## Trail Ryder (Jul 18, 2011)

If all Dogde dealerships are also Chrysler dealerships, then killing off the Grand Caravan is not too big of a deal. They will just need a defeatured T&C to compete at the low price-point.

When minivan shopping, I found that even GC Crew seamed rather spartan, whereas I found the T&C to be very luxurious and attractive. We wanted the T&C, but the deal on the Routan was just too good to pass up.

I'm not sure that they will kill the Routan. I bet they sell a lot more Routans in the US then they ever sold Eurovans, plus the development cost is ZERO.


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

Steveaut said:


> ROUTAN DISCONTINUED:
> Based upon the lack of upgrades, the poor sales (price slashing), lack of marketing, etcetera, I believe that Routan's life is coming to an end. I wish it weren't so, but it seems like it never took off like VW hoped and they may very well be losing money on the deal. I suspect a 2013 model is the best we can hope for. Unfortunate from my perspective. I really like mine and I would buy another no question.


It's my understanding the Routan was never meant to last past this generation of the Caravan. It's only purpose was to keep VW in the minivan market until development is complete on their own minivan for the US market (rumors abound of a Passat based van to be built in TN.)



Steveaut said:


> TDI VAN:
> I wish! Doesn't look like it. I have followed diesels for a long long time. I had a 12 valve cummins for over 200k. There's always been talk of an F150 diesel, 1/2 ton diesels, SUV diesels, etcetera, etcetera. They never come to fruition. And that was when diesel fuel was cheaper than gas. I just don't see it happening. The sofisticated buyer that would appreciate the value of a diesel are too few to market such a model. VW TDI buyers are most often repeat customers that get it. It's hard to break into the market with a diesel in the U.S. It's unchartered waters in the van segment. At least for now.


When VW's new van comes to market, it will most likely have a TDI (maybe not at first release though.) The question is will Fiat bring diesels to the Chrysler lineup as claimed? opcorn:


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

Trailrider:

You actually make my point. The T&C is an upgrade from the Caravan. That's how Chrysler designed it. The Caravan caters to a sub-segment of the van market, which I would describe as the lower end and less expensive models and the more working class look. I would describe the T&C as a refined sub-segment ov the market, more costly, higher end. If Chrysler ended the Caravan, they would have to alter the market for the T&C. And just like the Routan buyers, there are those Caravan/Dodge loyalist that simply will not buy a T&C. The opposite is true as well. If Chrysler was, in my opinion, crazy enough to end the Caravan, they would lose a huge chunk of the van market. Those Caravan buyers are not guaranteed to turn to T&C as the logical replacement. Look at Ford and the Taurus history. Ford believed that Taurus loyalists would turn to the 500 and instead the left the brand. It was a mistake to end the Taurus and Ford realized that and behold, a reborn Taurus. People like familiar things, they are brand loyal (which is even more of a reason not to end the Caravan). Many Dodge folks would never buy a Chrysler for the same reason that a Chrysler T&C owner wouldn't buy a Routan or Caravan. They identify with their brand, even if it doesn't make sense.

Jetwagon:

You make good points if we assume your premise is correct. Unfortunately, there is no support that a VW van is coming, that VW intended Routan to be temporary, etcetera. It's all just speculation and rumor. That was kind of my point about the TDI versions. How many models of VW don't have TDIs? It's no given that a VW van is coming, especially one that would market to the same Routan crowd. It's even less of a given to assume a TDI would be offered.

Oh, and I would disagree that VW didn't incur development costs in the Routan. If they didn't incur the upfront cost to upgrade the suspension, interior, etcetera, then it would have been rolled into the contract with Chrysler. VW, one way or the other, paid for the development of the Routan. It was just less demanding on them by using an existing platform by a competitor than to R&D their own. But it definitely was a cost to them. I honestly don't think the deal was good for VW, but they had no choice under the contract, depending on what their obligation is. There can be all sorts of requirements in the contract, years, years plus total sales, percentage, flat rate charge and so on. But I think it's fair to say that with the deep discounting, things don't look pretty.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

The current/new Passat is on the Jetta/Golf platform, so a minivan on the "Passat platform" would be on the Jetta/Golf platform. The VW Touran minivan sold outside US/Canada is also on the Golf/Jetta platform, so nothing to fear. The B5.5 was the last Passat on a separate platform from the other VW cars (shared the Audi A4 platform).

The 2011 Touran looks like this: 









In any event, this article is worth a read about VW's minivan plans for the 2014 model year, plans as of Dec. 2010 anyway:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q4/2014_volkswagen_microbus_rendered-future_cars

Some excerpts:
_the Microbus is back, on the front-wheel-drive platform of the Touran, a Golf-derived compact minivan not sold in the U.S. _

_Motivation for the new Microbus will come from several engines in VW’s parts bin, including four-cylinder gas and turbo-diesels. 
_
_Production of the Microbus will coincide with the launch of another new, bigger van, a replacement for the Chrysler-supplied Routan to be built in Tennessee on VW's own platform._


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## tuanies (Oct 16, 2009)

I can see the DGC clone being killed but the name would probably live on, maybe as a short wheel base only model / Journey replacement, or maybe be a Mazda 5 competitor.


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## higgledy (Jul 24, 2011)

I am thinking the entire minivan market is going to disappear (as we know it)...within 5 to 10 years. Therefore, I can see the Caravan going away, if Fiat is planning to bring out something similar to the Mazda 5 in the Dodge lineup.


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## Cool Dub (Aug 25, 2010)

*Auto forcasting is a lot like guessing lotto tickets*

No one knows!
Just a bunch of guessing.


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

Cool Dub said:


> No one knows!
> Just a bunch of guessing.


Yep, speculation. But still good discussion and interesting points.


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