# new intake manifold project:16v itbs turbo intake manifold



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Edit: I'm selling this build. pm me if you interested in anything.
or email me [email protected]

original start:
so,
I've been kicking this idea around for a year or so, lurking, looking for a deal; got the 42mm plate itbs for $43 shipped, the manifold for $40 shipped.
I have access to a full machine shop,
a buddy to design the itb to head flange adapter, 
another who is an increadable machinist with a full cnc shop in his garage I'm gunna get to machine the adapters.

the manifold is a toyota corolla piece

the head to itb flange and the itb to manifold flange will be made out of the oe casting.

the air shroud rial will be made into the vacuum source. it will also have an idle stabilizer. the second injector bank will be used for water injection.


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## Amsterdam087 (Dec 31, 2007)

another awesome project of yours! 
good stuff man, :beer::thumbup:


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## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

Woah, looks pretty complex.

What are the characteristics of a turbo charged ITB engine? I'd imagine the turbo would spool rather quickly


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

guess im not the only one who thought of using a corrola manifold. My design is a bit different though.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

that's pretty neat:thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

my premis is that with a traditional runner plenum throttle, the whole manifold is under vacuum at idle/part throttle which must fill before the pressure at the intake valves can increase. the plan is to put the throttle plates as close to the intake valves as possible which will keep the rest of the intake system at atmophere/boost. also the need for the plenum is reduced with the corolla intake design.

should spool quicker.
should be able to keep up with a na v8 performance wise. 
should be able to slaughter in the autocross performance band of things.
I plan on a before and after dyno with the manifold being the only change


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so a few things I need to take care of


I have an alu water neck I can chop and angle. I'll figure out the rad hose once in place.

The dipstick looks like I may be able to angle to clear between the runners. 

I'll have to work out the crank breather after I get things in place.

I think I can locate the radiator forward into the ac evaporator position for a bit more room.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

didnt i say a little while ago that you were going to do this? :laugh:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so after talking with my buddy that does the cad stuff at work, We 've come to the conclusion the itb to intake flange shape will be too difficult to machine without alot of steps.

so

time to look into a casting run. might go ahead and do 15-20 sets if pricing is relativley reasonable to recoupe the project costs.

or

I may look at machining a blank of the space and do something like making plaster molds of it to make wax copies and laying up carbon around it.

I'll have to epoxy them to the flange though.
or 
put 8 or so 4-40 thread brass insert in the head side of the adapter and run 4/40 screws threw the flange into the adapter. that might be cool, I think 32 to 40 4-40 screws will be strong enough to keep things in place with an additional support bracket holding the corolla manifold plenum to the block

I still need that accessory bracket though, my 8v alt took a dump. I pinched a wire inside and blew the diode bridge.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

very interesting, i wonder the net pulse tuning effects

any calculations on that like TB venturi to intake valve seat, or 4into1 to valve seat ?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I've been thinking about that a bit. but fuguring out the logistics of making the adapters has been more of an issue. I really like where the stock manifold runner length puts the pulse harmonic right above cruise rpm i.e. mpg highway is better. I have not gotten an accurate runner length yet, but I know it will be longer than stock by a few inches.

btw the alt bracket isssue is taken care of.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

hope to have my oval to round transitions done this week.
making em out of 1.75" ID 1/8" wall.
attempting to keep the transition to 1.25" long using a round .20" deep flanged plug and .20" of the other end in a mill vice using the mill head as a press to keep things held down while I'm squeezing.

should have plenum to valve length of just over 25" 

I predict I'll catch the second harmonic @ 5700ish range if the runner to plenum calcs still apply to a throttlebody manifold setup like this. since the 4 runners join at the plenum and there is no tb, I should have a harmonic off the intercooler, so I'm going to try and measure that out correctly and catch the first harmonic around 6000 rpm.


I'm machining taper transitions on the engine side of the itbs to bring the opening ID to 1.75" dia round. will be easier to mate up to than trying the match the 1.50"ish dia with the .75" dia ish upper cut-out where the injector tapers in and still achieve the venturi effect around the injection area and not cause a bunch of turbulance. will also cut a 2" dia inset to locate the round to oval tapers in the itbs.

thinking of squirting the fuel in @ the itb injector port and water in at the stock injector port.
the fuel should get a better mix if it goes in first,,, I think, instead of trying to mix fuel in air with a bunch of water droplets in it.

it's better than watching tv i guess.


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

Hmm id like to see the flow numbers of that Toyota manifold vs our stock 16v manifold. Wonder how it would pair up against say a SRI for a turbo application. 

Also where did you get that manifold, like what motor/year/car?

Love the creativity of this build tho cant wait to see more progress :thumbup:


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## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

i like your build. when i decided to turbo my car a few years back i ran into some problems with the intake manifold i wanted to run and had a race to get to in 3 days...so i had my old jenvy itb's sitting collecting dust. a few calls later a friend made me a plenum to fit onto the itb's. put them on the car and i have loved it ever since. spools much better in the midrange compared to my old intake. power up top is still the same. heres a lil vid of a low boost dyno pass i did last year.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Stussy NJ said:


> Hmm id like to see the flow numbers of that Toyota manifold vs our stock 16v manifold. Wonder how it would pair up against say a SRI for a turbo application.
> 
> Also where did you get that manifold, like what motor/year/car?
> 
> Love the creativity of this build tho cant wait to see more progress :thumbup:


98-02 corolla 1zzfe engine

the oe rocco plenum puts the opening 90* and right next to #4 cylinder, no way it is getting equel flow compared to #1 cylinder. the other oe manifolds will be better getting air into #4. but that would not clear my tower brace and would be too easy.

honestly I'm still haven't commited to the toyota runners over a plenum on the itbs. I want to make the runners removable. maybe I will build a big plenum and compare both, hmmm


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

Im going to be picking one up shortly ( if i can find one somewhere) and have it port matched and see how it is, the look of the damn thing is just amazing in its self:thumbup:. From your pics i can really tell how #4 gets uneven flow compared to #1 but ill take your word for it haha. 

Reason i believe those will beat out a SIR at lest on your set up is the amount of torque your going to make vs a short runner with a large plenum. Just my .02 either way keep us updated :beer:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

silly rabbit, exhaust manifolds are for exhausts, not intakes!!!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

current setup









didn't get the transitions made yet. I had mid terms and saturday class final to get ready (getting a piece of paper with the word "engineer" on it) and had to take my boy over to Purdue for a perspective student visit. dang life getting in the way of car time again


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Turboed ITB 16v eh... this goes in the watched-list.  

Good luck on the build. Something I've been thinking of for a long time now. Turbo or SC on ITB's. Think the SC would give more low and mid range torque though.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

now if this thread pulls through; we can mate this to the audi v8 head set-up and make a real abomination of mother nature out of a 16v engine....:laugh:


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

^ i like your style :thumbup:


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

ellocolindo said:


> now if this thread pulls through; we can mate this to the audi v8 head set-up and make a real abomination of mother nature out of a 16v engine....:laugh:


 That's what I was thinking.  

VW MK2, Audi 4-cilinder bottom, V8 head, Corolla manifold, big ass turbo, TWM itb's and a nice SC for low end torque. :laugh::laugh:


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

only if it was so simple... we can all dream


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Stussy NJ said:


> only if it was so simple... we can all dream


 Everybody can do simple. 
Simple is boring!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

got the transitions part way done. 
able to get em in 1.14" of tubing. have to mill the taco shape off the ends to get em flat so I can weld em up. 

so I have about 12"+ of tubing left. anyone want transitions made let me know. I just want to cover my tubing purchase $35 shipped for anything made out of the rest.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

interested in this. any pictures?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm thinking of putting a flange on the engine and runner side of the itb's and sandiwching the itb's between the flanges with through bolts. this way I can get the itb's apart to maintain/swap if necessary. 
the flange will be set all the way down around the transitions to not lengthen things. it will justtake some mill time. 

also I'm going to mimic the cis fuel nozzles for the water injection, minus the o-rings on the end of the air shrouds. this should put the nozzle where the vw engineers decided to inject in the manifold. not including the lower o-ring will open the the air shroud rail to the manifold to use for the brake booster while still shielding the nozzles from radiant heat soak and vaporizing the water out.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

also so everyone knows. 
the toyota manifold runners apears to be spaced about 87mm. our haeds are spaced 88mm. 
not quite a direct mate up but workable with a bit of muscle. 
that said I did take the plunge and cut the manifold flange and the round to oval transitions off.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i am a bit lost here. 
on the last picture it would be like this? 

flange that connects the head to the ITBs; the missing ITBs; the flange from the corolla manifold? 

can you pm me a number to reach you at for a exahust cam mod purchase? 
paypal ready


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

What about the coolant flange off the head....im curious to see what your solution is for that. The stock one looks rather tight


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

TWM sells one that should work like a charm. It's not on their site, but you get it as a packagedeal along with the ITB's. If you want just the flange, just shoot them an email and they'll sell you one.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

ellocolindo said:


> i am a bit lost here.
> on the last picture it would be like this?
> 
> flange that connects the head to the ITBs; the missing ITBs; the flange from the corolla manifold?
> ...


 pictured is the motor to itb side of the project. overall length will be about 1/4" lower than the top of the transitions, the flange will be flush with the transition tops. 

my plan is to have this done this winter and running by spring. it is a slow process. alot of things need to be considered for the full assembly. being able to get to all the damn screws for isntallation and dissasembly, adjusting the plate linkage to balance the idle, reach the idle bypass screws, fuel and water plumbing, over all length and dissassmbly for maintainance, clearance for the water neck, distance between the motor and radiator, and supporting the whole assembly on the motor (with the length of things there is a good possiblilty of hitting a harmonic and shaking the damn thing apart @ 5k or so rpms) 

If I just slapped it together, I very well may have something that cannot be installed or adjusted or maintained. 

WOOT! 

halloween smilies:vampire::vampire:umpkin::vampire:umpkin::vampire::wave:


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

okay i will follow the progress on this. 
i am boosting my 16v maybe with a audi v8 head as described in the other thread. 
i am not shooting water into the engine to cool it down. i am only looking for like 220 hp at the most. 
so i am looking for the exahsut cam mod right now. 
can you calculate shipping with usps to l8h 6p1? 
paypal ready.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Breadfan can you post a pic of the twm waterneck?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Thanks Dave926 for reminding me to add a water neck to the aluminum scrap pile I have under my desk at work right now:beer:


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Dave926 said:


> Breadfan can you post a pic of the twm waterneck?


Frechem has one on his 16v: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4900673-frechem-s-winter-project-build-thread

There must be a pic in that thread, but you can also just ask him. I know he posted a pic of it somewhere recently, just can't remember where it was anymore.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Breadfan5968 said:


> Frechem has one on his 16v: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4900673-frechem-s-winter-project-build-thread
> 
> There must be a pic in that thread, but you can also just ask him. I know he posted a pic of it somewhere recently, just can't remember where it was anymore.


It was over on club gti.

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223540


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

just looked at the pics
yah that flange is about perfect. no way to make one better, unless it's over $75 buck for it.
apears to be the same down angle as the stock maybe closer to the abf only straight out from the head with a down turn after the bottom hose connection.

I'll call em tomarrow:thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

$60 for the water neck:beer:
from the other thread from somone contacting them about the waterneck.

Please call Pierce Manifolds at 408 842 6667 for the part.

Best regards

Borla Induction


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

you dont need an after market waterneck. I used the factory one and it worked great. but with your setup it might be a little tighter on space then mine was.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

after putting theparts together with the water neck, I know I'm gunna need a straight water neck. the stock one points right into the vacuum nipples and bypass screw on the bottom of the tb.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> you dont need an after market waterneck. I used the factory one and it worked great. but with your setup it might be a little tighter on space then mine was.


could i bother you for a closer up pic of it, just seems from the pic on page 1 it looks tight. and whats you belt setup?

it looks like the water neck is right at the #2 runner


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

Best pic i got.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

is the oil dipstick at a 90 degree position to the block?
how do you do that ?:sly:


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

ellocolindo said:


> is the oil dipstick at a 90 degree position to the block?
> how do you do that ?:sly:


 it is at a pretty harsh angle to the block. It works great, and read perfect. Just a little tough to get to.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

hey [email protected]
what alternator setup are you running? do you have a wider angle pick to see the relative location of the mani/alt?

I may just make a waterneck out of 5/16" alu plate and pipe or -AN fittings


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

not running an alternator. It only has to run for 10mins or so, then it gets put back on the charger in the pits


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so I chopped my water neck.
dunno what I was thinking about buying one. 
it's not like I don't have a full machine shop to use at lunch time and after work.
I'm getting ready to hit my buddy up to do 12 welds, what is 1 more around the water neck.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

well unlike some full out race car drivers :banghead:; other people ( like me for instance); need to have an alternator around to charge the battery... :laugh:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

need to get the control side of things squared up also.
since I need to bring out a switch for the water injection relays, I may as well bring 3 out. warm up led and accel led are coming out as 1A pn2222a switches for relays along with js0 as a 10A irf540 switch for just to have available. starting to run out of room in the box though


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

switches brought out of the box.

lower mani ready to take over to my buddy who welds for a consult. I think it is ready to weld.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

my buddy that welds looked at it, he's not confident he can weld it up without it warping beyond usability. he has a buddy that is more experienced welding aluminum he's going to show it to.


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## 86Franklin (Apr 5, 2008)

I want to do this someday. Cant wait to see this done as well. Also where in Indiana are you? I noticed you mentioned Purdue earlier on.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I-70/ ohio boarder area.
I just don't see it being that bad of a weld job, I'd suspect the flanges are thick enough to resist twisting up. the weld point on the lower flange is the same thickness as the transitions and roughly .5" from the flange base. the upper flange is .55" thick and the transitions come completely through the flange. it should stay straight while the bottom flange and transitions are welded. the upper flange only needs to be tacked to the transitions. I would suspect that if the lower flange and transitions were welded in sections while clamped flat and anealed in between sections, it should stay flat.

my buddy that welds does not have an oven or the time to weld the manifold in sections.

I have a anealing oven and a full tig welding setup at work. 

maybe I need to learn to weld aluminum.


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## hamhead1 (Oct 7, 2007)

whats the purpose of putting that corolla manifold onto the intake ports like that???

is it similar to equal length headers, but this is equal length intake???


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yah flow dynamics
most log manifold designs do not flow the same amount of air to each cylinder at high flow rates. 
the premis is to reduce the aprupt changes in direction and in flow velocity in the intake tract.

so I decided to run 2 bolts through the lower manifold assembly flanges between runners 2-3 and 3-4 and glue it.
no worries, using supreme 10HT epoxy shiz is $950/qt and will heat cycle over 100k times
that should finish out the lower manifold.
I may use it to afix the runners to the other flange since it will be really hard to mill the flange flat after welding with that metal squid on the other side of it.


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## hamhead1 (Oct 7, 2007)

what kind of dyno numbers would this intake give compared to a stock 16v intake?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

max hp is not the goal

hp is not additive, it is cumulative. any given "mod" does not necessarily = increase in hp

reducing flow turbulance allows to reduce boost pressure needed for a given volume fill of the cylinder which reduces the intake temp which increases the mass of air going into the cylinders, which increases the exhaust gas coming out of the back spinning the turbo faster.

short answer?
dunno, don't care, not the point 

edit addition
that said an intake track like this should have hp more quickly, the runners do not have a large enough cross section for really high hp #'s though, although the same concept with say 2" runners would be really neat to try on someone's 500hp build.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

epoxy'd the lower manifold today, had to leave it in the oven to finish curing when I left.
hope to get it on the mill friday.

btw cure temp is 250-275*F


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

will you think about building a limited batch of these after real life testing? interested in one along with the exhaust cam mod .:thumbup::laugh:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

someone would have to percure the parts and send them to me if they'd want me to make one for them. I've seen too many really cool parts come out and no one pony's up. the old school vw crowd does not spend money.

really once I figure something out, I move on anyway. 
I make x-ray generators @ work, taking classes to get a piece of paper with the word engineer on it, and am just trying to get some machinist skills so I can build a gyroplane. 

this whole car thing is because I bought a 88 gti way back when and the motor blew 2 weeks later and I had no car knowledge


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

weeblebiker said:


> someone would have to percure the parts and send them to me if they'd want me to make one for them. I've seen too many really cool parts come out and no one pony's up. the old school vw crowd does not spend money.
> 
> really once I figure something out, I move on anyway.
> I make x-ray generators @ work, taking classes to get a piece of paper with the word engineer on it, and am just trying to get some machinist skills so I can build a gyroplane.
> ...


interesting story :laugh:
you are a genius and I am watching :thumbup:

the corolla manifold looks mean as FCK!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so I think I worked out what was bothering me about long runner vs. short runner intake design na vs. boosted to the point of conveying it. first the position of the throttle plates

the reason I think this set up will be great in a boosted ap is that the runners are before the throttle plates. the runners are kept at boost pressure. the flow rate through them should be the same as in an na aplication at a given rpm since the pressure differential is after the runners,,,,boosted same flow rate as na, but greater density (and temp if the intercooler isn't up to snuff, that ol PV=NrT thing). so really the runner dia should not matter as long as it is good for the rpm and cylinder volume (which it is close, 40mm dia)

as apposed to the throttle at the other end of the runners, this creates a greater pressure differential across the runners which means higher flow rate, less density which means the runner diameter will cause greater restriction (fluid dynamics through a pipe diameter)

so why don't manufacturers do this? cost.

btw I hope to have the rocco in the garage and do a preliminary test fit this week.


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## bingbongplop3 (Aug 5, 2008)

not sure if this will help at all but check it out http://www.ame-racing.de/dragracer/galerie_Polo1_Dragster.shtml


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

initial rough fit on my motor in the garage is promising.
hight looks like no hood issues
length measurement apears that moving the rad forward to the evaporator position should give about 1" clearance from the dual fan shroud but the fan motor will may be in the way of the pluming connection. looks close to clrearing the rad if the fan was not there, maybe I can set the fan up in front to push instead of pull.

so progress will continue


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

progress
weight: approx 10lbs:laugh:


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

That looks amazing


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I have the dip stick, vent and water neck brake booster vac figured out.

I still have to get the manifold-radiator and manifold alt clearance, fuel rail, water injection, map, tps connector, idle stabilizer figured out.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm going to have as much in fasteners as I paid for the mani or itbs :banghead:
picking up a bag 'O stainless from fastenal tomarrow


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

btw
I still need a 1.8T aeb fuel rail.
willing to trade work for one or pay a reasonable price.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

This is great^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Will this one work?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5030577-20v-fuel-rail-4bar-fpr-(16v-efi-swap-stuff)


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Why not make your own fuel rail? Ross machine sells this







http://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash6.html 

which I used to make this rail (anodized dark blue)









Basically all you have to do is bore some holes that fit the injector o-rings, tap each end, and add some mounting features. 

Oh and if it helps, the dip stick is from a 2007 Audi A4 (cable style which can snake in any direction) and the dipstick tube is just some aluminum tubing from mcmaster that has the perfect OD and ID for this application, plus you can bend it by hand! Good luck with your build!


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

Is that a carbon fiber outlet?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

that is a possibility, but it would have to be anodized, certain grades of aluminum and ethanol do not play nice together. and my fuel lines are set up for the aeb rail already. 
the oil dipstick is a great addition though. mine hangs just slightly in the bend as it is now I don't want to be putting dipstick tube shavings through the oil pump


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

If your going to buy fuel rail you should probably check out http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=808 they have built in mounting bracketry and will drill them to any offset:thumbup: 

Other reasons for using factory fuel rail would be the injector cup clips that most aftermarket fuel rails dont have and you also have to buy aftermarket FPR or FPR adapter to use the billet rails, So in all reality it is much more cost effective to use a factory piece that cost pennies compared to setting up the billet fuel rails:snowcool:


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Well if you're interested in dipstick setup the tube is Mcmaster p/n 9929T152. I welded an aluminum washer to the bottom to make a flange that stopped on the block but I wouldn't recommend it since it's super thin and easy to mess up the ID. I think you're better off with the high temp epoxy.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yah the oe rails are stainless and fully alcohol compatable. 
Thanks for the mcmaster #. 
yah the newer poxy's are amazing in strength heat and fatigue resistance. 

got all the fasteners in so the manifold part is pretty much done. 
now for the rest of the intake tract and to get the liquid spraying in.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

going back and forth on the air or water intercoooler. I can make a real clean flowing intake path with the water intercooler compared to a front mount. dunno about the added wheight of a water cooler system though maybe 20lbs added up front.


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## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

i ran a water ic for a while. it's a really great set-up for a all out drag car(ran ice in there at the track), but for a daily driver not as practical. between the ic, 5 gal aux water tank, lines, water pump etc...the weight was easily around 20+ lbs. Worked great when it was cold but with the ic in the engine bay it would still warm up quite a bit...even with water wetter. i even thought about mounting a lil fan on it but changed my mind. 

so i went air to air a lot less weight and pain in the butt. 
.02


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

soch naungayan said:


> i ran a water ic for a while. it's a really great set-up for a all out drag car(ran ice in there at the track), but for a daily driver not as practical. between the ic, 5 gal aux water tank, lines, water pump etc...the weight was easily around 20+ lbs. Worked great when it was cold but with the ic in the engine bay it would still warm up quite a bit...even with water wetter. i even thought about mounting a lil fan on it but changed my mind.
> 
> so i went air to air a lot less weight and pain in the butt.
> .02


 Soch, 

You have any updated pics of your setup? Looking to see if Jim can build me an enclosed plenum for my itb's and we're going to roll the PT5857 I think.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I'd be running a water air heat exchanger up front. 
Im still thinking through the water injection spraying right at the intake valves and how that will effect the intake charge cylinder fill density compared to filling a flamin hot cylinder with a charge 20-50*(guessing) cooler using a ic. 

the main reason I want a air water ic is I'd be able to run a barrel style ic in place of a straight run ic pipe to keep the intake flow characteristics as smooth as possible. 

trying to aproach things from a cylinder fill charge density/ flow rate perspective intead of the temp/ boost pressure perspective. 

really, the amount of heat added by the turbo compared to the heat produced during compression is not that great 

trying to stay focused on maximizing cylinder fill while not detonating with the least amount of work 

maybe I'll just run non ic and plumb things so I'd be able to drop one in later if necessary. 
let the dyno and knock be the determining factor.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so I figured out the water injector nozzles. I will be mimicing the cis nozzles and using the oe brass cups and air shrouds. 

first I have both .003" and .004" have amfog misting tips. they are little things, about 3/8"dia with 10-24 threads. slightly smaller than the cis nozzle tips. 

for the bodies I will be using 3" long 3/8" dia virgin PEEK. the shiz is great, 480* working temp and is highly thermaly insulative. will keep the water from vaporizing in the nozzles. there will be no front o-ring though to let the air shroud rail be used for the brake booster. 

push connect fittings on the other end 

so another mcmaster parts list is starting


----------



## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

Fast929 said:


> Soch,
> 
> You have any updated pics of your setup? Looking to see if Jim can build me an enclosed plenum for my itb's and we're going to roll the PT5857 I think.


 give me few days...i gotta get the external hd out with my last pic's of the set up.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

weeblebiker said:


> so I figured out the water injector nozzles. I will be mimicing the cis nozzles and using the oe brass cups and air shrouds.
> 
> first I have both .003" and .004" have amfog misting tips. they are little things, about 3/8"dia with 10-24 threads. slightly smaller than the cis nozzle tips.
> 
> ...


 I'd recommend using a solenoid for actuation vs a check valve to keep them from "bleeding" into the cylinder or IC. I need to source similar stuff for my WI setup as well.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yah I have all that stuff already  

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4692725-project-water-injection-diy-better-than-kits. 

this manifold is kinda a second gen project


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## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

soch naungayan said:


> give me few days...i gotta get the external hd out with my last pic's of the set up.


 some of my old pics from mocking things up...kinda crappy pics but.. 

































k so these were earlier pics from a few years ago. basically badger5/jenvey itb's. had a buddy fab up an intake with 3inch long runners to a 3 inch intake. i can bolt the intake off the itb's. i only went this rte as a last second emergency...as we were just shooting for anyting at the time. took it to the track but at 120deg(las vegas) the intake got way too hot between the air temp and engine temps. so i had a buddy make me a Phenolic gasket(to go where the itb's bolt to the head)to help with the heat...and boy it did help a ton.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

tell us more about the phenolic gasket. 
how much did it help?


----------



## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

i wish i had a concrete number but i don't. at the time i was looking for anything to cool intake temps down...a nos intercooler would have made(great help)but it made it a 2nd power adder..sooo i said no to that. 
so i looked at alternatives... 
...when i would go to the track a 12 sec et @ 120+(at 120+ temps) would easily be a 11 with a few extra mph with the gasket as i found out....lot's of heat not on the intake. 
even to the touch there was a big difference....no gasket..HOT...gasket...just warm.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

just checked some thermal transfer #'s. there are plenty of better materials out there than phenolic which can be done @ lower thickness. oftcourse you still have the studs conducting heat unless insuating washers are used. 

but then again, dwell time of the air. it may be a better idea just to insulate the fuel rail from the manifold and make sure there is no metal matal contact on the water injection instead. 

and I do think I need to get the carbon canister system working again. I know in the summer my tank will drop when sitting a couple days in the heat. :banghead: 

efficiency ain't just about tree huggingeace:


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

weeblebiker said:


> yah I have all that stuff already
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4692725-project-water-injection-diy-better-than-kits.
> 
> this manifold is kinda a second gen project


 
btw this set up is what I'll be using for my initial dyno, then swapping to this thread manifold some time afterword as time permits. 

I think the kenetic mani/td04 will be the limiting factor afterword, I may ripp that stuff off and flow port it before hand.


----------



## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

not sure if you seen my money pit...but here's a few vids...itb's and turbo.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

nice.
just looked over your pics again, is your rad moved forward? also I think I see a catch can setup in one of the pics, could you give me the details? I do need to move to a catch can setup but would like to make it drain back to the pan somehow. We use alot of vacuum pumps at work some have oil vapor traps on em that are really effective. I may use/copy that design and have it sit above the block vent so it will drain back down through that hose and vent the valve cover into it as well.

like I told the guys that are somewhat into cars at work: building the mani is the easy part,, modifying all the systems around it is the real work.

back to cleaning the garage so I can get my car in to start on this. hope to be working on it over the week between xmas and newyear


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

more progress.
the part you dont see was getting the garage in condition to get the car in to work on. have my father in laws house in there also taking up half of it.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

minor update. the radiator clears in the stock location. dual fans will clear flipped around in the front of the rad. the fan motor needs to be rotated 120* for the plug to clear. however this pretty much eliminates running a intrcooler in front of the rad.

so what about tapping into the radiator return hose to feed a air water intercooler?
hmmmmmmm


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

major update:
throttle cable, alt and radiator hose worked out. 

The throttle cable is prety slick. used a stock throttle lever arm so the I'll have full pedal throw. the cable stop is on the manifold toward the head. the cable is mostly straight line to the firewall tucked along the head. hacked the stock throttle cable and some bicycle parts left over from the bike shop days (it's all legos) for the cable. had to machine a new cable end cause I couldn't find anything that style locally.

had to put the slip pully back on the water pump for the lower alt position. need get a correct size v-belt still

radiator hose is a $10 "S" bend from the autoparts store with one end slightly cut down. I got freakin lucky on my water neck. I was aiming for straight out from the head, ended up pointing slightly to the driver's side, since the base is slightly offset to the passenger side, the hose connection ended up dead center with the itbs on each side about .001" clearance from the hose.

pics to come when it's not in bits


----------



## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

weeblebiker said:


> minor update. the radiator clears in the stock location. dual fans will clear flipped around in the front of the rad. the fan motor needs to be rotated 120* for the plug to clear. however this pretty much eliminates running a intrcooler in front of the rad.
> 
> so what about tapping into the radiator return hose to feed a air water intercooler?
> hmmmmmmm


Have you tried to flip the duel fans to the outside yet I was wondering if there was any issues with it and the grillopcorn:


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Send me a cam and you can have mine lol.

Not sure if you thought of it yet, but what about using a turnbuckle from the hardware store?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I've tried em before and the engine vibration kills the eyelets or loosens em.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Svedka said:


> Have you tried to flip the duel fans to the outside yet I was wondering if there was any issues with it and the grillopcorn:


yes and no. I have two dual fan setups. the electrical connector must be at the 12 O'clock position to clear on the mk2 rocco. one of the motors I have will not clear as the connector can only be placed at 10 and 2 O'clock. this will not work on any other chassis as the mk2 has the most realestate in front of the radiator.

I'll take a pic of it and post when I post the other pics.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

wishing I didn't toss my ac condensor now:banghead:
anyone who has a good scirocco 16v ac condensor please im me


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Why not make a strap, they are pretty simply to be honest, or use 2 pieces of flat steel and hinge it.


----------



## soch naungayan (Dec 23, 2001)

weeblebiker said:


> nice.
> just looked over your pics again, is your rad moved forward? also I think I see a catch can setup in one of the pics, could you give me the details? I do need to move to a catch can setup but would like to make it drain back to the pan somehow. We use alot of vacuum pumps at work some have oil vapor traps on em that are really effective. I may use/copy that design and have it sit above the block vent so it will drain back down through that hose and vent the valve cover into it as well.
> 
> like I told the guys that are somewhat into cars at work: building the mani is the easy part,, modifying all the systems around it is the real work.
> ...


sorry i did not get to ya earlier...60 hour work weeks...
the rad is in the stock location. dual mk3 fan. i tried a single mk1 set up but it did not cool things fast enough. 
as far as the catch can....i run it cause under really high boost(20+)psi and 8000rpm shifts... oil would puke out no matter what. so i drain it after about 3 runs. usually a milky contaminated quart.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Setup looks good! Looking forward to seeing this come together. Your a little ahead of where I am right now  

Working on a piston tool to machine my NA 12:1 wiseco's this week. Should be set mid week'ish and time to machine them down. 


Soch, do you happen to have your motor spec around? I remember that wicked k-edged crank you had on the NA motor. This still the same mill?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Fast929 said:


> Setup looks good! Looking forward to seeing this come together. Your a little ahead of where I am right now


 

It's been what? 6-7 years?


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

PowerDubs said:


> It's been what? 6-7 years?


 Working on a new roller. 

I got something for ya


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

From what application were those ITBs?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

gsxr 750.
they are big enoughto be ok with the 42mm and alot cheaper than hayabusa's
progress will be back burnered

have to become an expert in type 1 diabetes for my little guy right now.


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

Sorry to hear that man! I'll pray for him.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

thanks,
his assigned juvenile endocrineologist is type 1 and we found a local pharmacist who's 8 year old is type 1. this last week has felt pretty lonely but providence has helped us with a support network. my little guy is handling it better than his parents, our job is to act like it's no big deal while treating it like a big deal.

some progress was made
mostly just tinkering down time at this point

water injectors are done
3/8 brass rod tapped for the spray nozzle and push to connect. 3/8" compression olive soldered on. 3 -204 o-rings and a 1/4" stainless washer using the push to connect fitting to put compression on the o-rings to lock em in place. stock cis injector holders. nozzle end is not sealed to allow the rail to see manifold pressure. but can easily be sealed with a 3/8 id-1/2"od o-ring
somewhat concerend how having a rail connecting the runners below the fuel injectors will effect idle, how much idle air will be pulled from the rail @ 900 rpm.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

mostly playing with fitment.
I'll run a air-water intercooler eventually, was even contemplating going cheap ebay awic, cheap ebay slim profile rad fans and a salvage yard vr6 style auxillary water pump and ac condensor, then though better of it. 

but right now I'm going non-intercooled, at least untill I get past the medical bills 

even non intercooled, it should be a very peppy little build.

I'll definitely do some engine bay straightening up, it deserves to look as clean as it will flow.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

You must be spooling at 1100 rpm now.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

maybe spooling by end of the month


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

red vac line or black?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

black
I have real eyecandy in the bay now, more color would just detract from it.
I kinda like the silver, I'll see if I can't get the two pieces silver anodized.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

or i could do the motor side and manifold, and elbow pieces in black and keep the itbs and fuel rail silver


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

weeblebiker said:


> or i could do the motor side and manifold, and elbow pieces in black and keep the itbs and fuel rail silver


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

black texture powdercoat, similar to ecu cases. 
manifold base, runners, elbow, and saab outlet pipe(reblack it)
the anodize won't look good/not work, too many different grades of aluminum and the glue joints won't anodize at all.
will tag it along with a upcoming powdercoat run at work


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so now I'm kicking the idea of putting a 5th water nozzle in the saab 90* right off the turbo outlet and going soley h20 phase change cooling. putting an amfog nozzle with the od lathed down on the end of a 1/8" tube extended from the sidewall of the 90* into the center of the straight section so it has max gas cooling efficiency.

I should get pretty good cooling results and won't be much additional cost in hardware.

For management, switching to a maf on the turbo intake should work very well with the setup. the af will be calculated before the water is added to the gas load that way and will also get around the itb tubulance issues with map.
the 78mm venturi maf off a volvo xc70 looks like a good match. it's where the turbo came from also. volvo gets kudos for sizing all their stuff for max efficiency. looking into the ms2 stuff for that.

may pick up a high pressure diaphram pump and switch to the lowest flow rate water nozzles for the port water injection, do half the water load right after the turbo and half at the intake valves


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I just wanted to tell you something


























Your ****ing nuts


----------



## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

^Right, next thing we know hes going to say hes going with an awd set up to top it all off


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Dave926 said:


> I just wanted to tell you something
> 
> 
> 
> ...


maybe, 
or eccentric if I sat on my ass,
but I can do math, have access to a machine shop and can spin a wrench, so that makes me an inventor
it's not like it's x-ray science, now that a job 
nuts? yah it's alot of work for a low hp build

not awd but the intake system/ head may find it's way into a mkIV or onto a 20v long block


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

as far as nuts goes,,,

one of the 3/8" vac nipples in the plenum goes all the way into the 2" od director run inside the plenum, I could hide a nitrous injector there using a pwm control off my ms to make up for the o2displaced by the water, or as much oxidizer needed to max out my 55lb injectors. 

switch back to pump gas and make 300+hp off a stock long block and a $250 volvo turbo

there!
hows that! 

that may be next winters project:laugh:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the electical side is going to get a little nuts also.
since my build will pop like a zit at any given time above 7 ish psi,,,
I will plumb a pressure switch into the water injection to power the boost control valve. the water injection pump will be on a toggle switch. 

no water pressure, no boost over wastegate spring setting.

then we will get into the other electrical control stuff later,,,,

since I'm nuts.:wave:

btw, I'll post up pics of the 5th injector bits next week.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

looks like I'm going to get a pump for an espresso machine. have to look up the dc/ac conversion efficiency and see which would be better to run; 120v ac or 220v ac.
my hunch is 120v.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Stussy NJ said:


> ^Right, next thing we know hes going to say hes going with an awd set up to top it all off


what I'm talking about doing will cost me all of an aditional $110 max with shipping. it's getting the max efficiency out of what I have now for the least cost and will be benefit to future additions

the control side is just knowing how to do it, I got more time to think than money to spend.


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

I've got to say, your pretty damn creative, not only do you come up with great ideas, you execute them nicely.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

You know you could control the water injection and boost with Megasquirt. you can toggle between two different boost maps and turn on the water at the flick of a switch. Or you could have the water come on at a certain boost pressure. Or when boost pressure is greater than 7psi and manifold temperature is greater than 120F and throttle position . . . Endless possibilities.

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yup
will end up with a multiple control regimen.
something like pump on manual switchfor autoX or @90kpa or 80%tps, solenoid open @ 120kpa or whatever I set it at.

the pressure swith is a hard wire override in case of pump failure. can't be accidently software overridden
I actually have written updates three times but the freaken board times out before I get it posted.
got as ulka pump and saab maf to add to the mix, only down side is the pump has a bspp thread outlet that I have to worl out with the rest of the plumbing.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

if I can cram any more I/O's in this thing


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

I'm running the stock 16v fuel pump on my turbo 16v and it lets me maintain 11:1 AFR just fine all the way up to 7k rpm at 210 kPa. When I looked into it a while back I figured that the stock pump should be good for almost 300 HP. Why not give that a try first? Oh and btw, dash 6 AN lines screw right on to the factory hard fuel lines in the engine compartment! I got so excited when I discovered that.

And about the MAF, have you been reading the MSextra forums regarding ITBs and MAF sensors? From what I've read it's something that few people have gotten to work right. Apparently you need to have the sensor's transfer function dead on and you need to make sure that the air flow through it isn't too slow, or too fast. Too slow and you won't get an accurate reading, too fast and you'll get turbulent flow and everything goes out the window.

I think most people that run ITBs are doing some sort of alpha-N and speed density blending. There's also ways to blend the MAF sensor's reading in there too.

This is a great build to follow. I love that it's so different! :beer::beer::beer: cheers!

-Alex


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Holy cow that's a ton of wires! Have you looked into this? http://jbperf.com/io_extender/index.html
I think Bowling and Grippo also make a GPIO board that lets you add tons more IO. I'm running the V3 PCB which has a little prototyping area and an extra high output current driver or two.

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

why throw money away on an "upgrade" when I can follow the wires and they fit and more importantly they work? the wires are to remote the high current transistors to heat sink on the case, not a free floating strip of aluminum om the board :thumbup:
I'll upgrade when I run out of room


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

also the more important part hiding in the jumble of wires is all the high current pulsed ground is isolated board and has a completely seperate ground path to the central lug.
v2.2 only has 1 ground plain.

found a nice double y tube connector that should flow equally to the 4 water injectors, been hard to find a 1 to 4 splitter that has equal flow,, but it's bsp/metric. my new pump outlet is also bsp. gunna have to buy new water plumbing:banghead:
but it will be worth it to have adjustable pressure, pulse damped, equal flowing water injection system.

what I'm reading about maf is it is ball park at best initially since actual intake flow rate is dependant on the entire intake tract but can be tuned with a wideband. will run maf up to 100kpa than map in boost with the current ms2 alpha/beta code.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

got the water fittings ordered, now I have to find a supplier that will special order the parker legris metric push connect fittings for me,, maybe I'll see if the parker rep will kick down some swag for the production conponent spec I'm dangling in front of him


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

If your water injector nozzles are "chocked" then the geometry of the 1-4 manifold won't matter. Do you know if the flow is chocked through them?

-Alex


----------



## Mathew... (Feb 22, 2009)

awesome thread! Also, I've had type 1 diabetes for 15 years now. (diagnosed at age 5). Its not that bad, just gotta stick to the mealplan! haha cheers,

Matt


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I have not run the #'s to for chock pressure in the system, but I know it is higher than I want to run. all the 1 to 4 manifolds besides this one do not have enough cross section in the common rail to not cause a pressure difference between the first to last nozzles unless I run freakish high pressure.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Great progress!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

elRey said:


> Great progress!


Thanks!

have a few more bits worked out: custom ait, 110v ac vibratory 15bar water pump assembly, etc,,, 
ordering a few push connect fittings tommarrow.
hope to post more pics this weekend


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

may be picking up another upgrade to the project, not sure which one, but they are both on the same property. 
something is always coming up to delay progress:banghead:


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

Wish I could have a delay like that, that's a sweet upgrade tho:thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

water injection 4-1 double y parker fitting to injectors and 5/32 push to connects on the water injectprs $50 shipped 








$50shipped 52watt ulka pump 
$10 shipped 80watt ebay inverter 
$10 in fittings


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I was wondering what you were going to do with 2 sets of injector ports/seats. 


Very cool indeed  Very slick and clean execution.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

thanks! 
I will take a set of detailed pics before final assembly with applicable part numbers. 
that parker 4-1 is the bomb!


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

yea im wondering were exactly you snagged that from :thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

parker double y connector 362PLPD-5/32-4. 
go to parker.com and find a local dealer


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

water injection manifold system is done. symetrical split, equal length= equal flow at any pressure


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

got the lower manifold and itbs bolted on the block and the throttle cable installed and the vac lines attached, fuel return line connected. 

still have to fix the kinked fuel supply hard line. 

get the engine bay wiring worked over. I have an aeb injector harness and the other connectors to get things hooked up on their way. 

wire and plumb the water pump system. 

the cool part is the toyota manifold can be detached from the itbs and the car will still run. it has to be that way to get the itbs balanced at idle. 

the powder coating may just happen later so I can have all the final plumbing done at once


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so after going over and over the water injection calcs and checking pressure vs. flow with the new pump, I can greatly reduce the compexity of the injection system. 

ulka esspresso pump has the same flow characteristics as the rsr pump (which I greatly suspect is an Ulka lab pump)

so the 4 amflo 0.3mm black nozzles and the ulka pump gives a pressure of 158 @ 0psi boost and 143 psi @ 15 psi boost with a flow rate abouts 175ccm. according to rcr racing 170ccm supports 300hp with a 15% water fuel ratio. I want higher water fuel ratio as my static comp is high and I'm only shooting for 225-250 hp so this is just about prfect

so pump directly into the 1-4 connector. no need for solnoid valve or high pressure tubing. 
will probably add a T fitting between the pump and 1-4 for a pressure switch. I don't want to boost past waste gate spring if the water pump fails


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

just have wiring to finish now. 
current pic


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

wiring is done.

going to go through testout and start up this week.

hope to be idling next weekend get the maf/map blend working, maybe play with automatic mixture control and get it set up to do adaptive learing off my base map using two load regimens. 

crank the ignition timing back in up under boost with the water injection kicking in @ positive pressure. boost solnoid wired with a n/o pressure switch inline, closes @ 120psi placed in the water injection system. no water pressure, no boost above wastegate setting. brake fluid in the switch isolated from the water in the injection system with a piston made out of a insulin syringe. keeps the switch from putting rust into the injection system and plugging the spray nozzles. I looked for a water compatable high pressure n/o switch but could not find anything under $100. the brake light switch was $15 shipped. the ulka pumps can partial fail hense a pressure switch right under system pressure

windshield wiper resivoir for water injection. $7 mcmaster inline filter in place of the wiper fluid pump.

water pressure switch means no blowing up the motor if the water resivoir goes dry or the water pump fails.

with the water injection I may be able to ditch teh wideband o2 also since I am not using fuel for detonation prevention.

will be doing a powdercoat run at work in the next few weeks I may still pull the intakes parts and powdercoat em.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm idling
has a nice growl from the air filter now. will drive around the block tomarrow.


----------



## Farlos (Jul 5, 2010)

i know im really ignorant,but, why are you not using a intercooler?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

er well
started this project,
wife (BS RN) got hours cut, and looks like will get canned this summer, 5 days later my little guy went to the hospital and came out diagnosed type 1 diabetes, about a $250/month med expense for the rest of his life, and I'm moving to a new house cause I won't be able to afford this house by September.
a intercooler system costs money
the car need to be drivable. 

a air water intercooler is in the future plans


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so looks like a full retune is in order.
idle map is way higher and the new injectors make for everything being just down right off
:sly:


----------



## Farlos (Jul 5, 2010)

weeblebiker said:


> a intercooler system costs money


sorry about your bad luck man, my question was pointed more toward the "is it possible to run a turbo with no intercooler", really nice build BTW


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the use of water injection (especially spraying into the cylinders in the cis nozzle position) in conjunction with E85 reduces the possibility of pre-ignition/detonation in a high temp/high compression combustion engine system, which is what blows pistons. the water injection alows a hotter intake charge without detonating since the water absorbs the final temp spike of cylinder compression. a hotter intake charge at a specific pressure has less o2 than a cooler intake charge, so less potenetial hp than a intercooled intake charge. however spark ignition does not have to be retarded as much with water injection which means a greater amount of torque can be generated at relative boost/hp levels than without water injection.

summery: I should have close to "regular" acceleration at specific boost pressure compared to a "standard" gasoline intercooled 9:1 or less comp build with this build non intercooled
and greater acceleration with no lag once intercooled. :wave:


there is some thought of flow dynamics in this set up also


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*bosch HFM2 tranfer function*

maf setup is a bitch
got a transfer function made with maf analyyzer but can't find a clear description of how to make ms use it :banghead:


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

working through some code issues, I think are resolved now. the msextra forums are very helpfull!

the good thing is I seem to be able to run reasonably well using map, except for hot starts and after running lean (heat soak still is a bitch)and idle fuel a bit off cold. I have map reading off the vac nipple at teh brake booster check valve connected to the cis injector air shroud rail with a 5/16" hose. seems to be enough to smoth out the pulses enough to run(efficiency be damned).

need to still get to the bike shop and get the itbs balanced, should help the kinda rough idle, I just eyeballed using light sliver balancing the throttle plates, close enough to start with. or the injector placement and large rail joining the runners below the injectors are causing the roughness

I am hoping that code will be written in the near future to use both load sensing regimens as I am running the maf into the 6v range at 7psiand 7k+ rpm, but have way better resolution at idle up through 4ish psi @ 7200rpm than map. the ms maf documentation is missleading, currently, the code calculates map from maf and ait.

still dialing in the water injection trigger regimen. starting low and working up. it causes a bit of hesitation if coming in under 2ish psi and under 4k rpm.

it's fun to be driving though:wave:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

got the maf figuresd out but may stay on map till a true maf map code blend is available. seeing close to 6v out of the maf already @ 7krpm and 5psi. and only .3v difference betwwen no flow and idle 

one last bit before I dive into really pushing the tune and turn on the boost control valve. 
installing a green led in a led blank in the gauge cluster that lights green when the water injection pressure comes up. this is in parralel to the boost control valve tied to + between the boost valve and the pressure switch. the pressure switch provides + to both circuits. 

kindof a "go baby go" light


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## CodeMan (May 12, 2006)

Love this project, very innovative. :beer:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Thanks. 
got moved into the new house (on a cul-de-sac, not the one woth the out buildings   ) 
and having my oldest's senior gaduation open house this weekend (which means I'm missing the scirocco cinci meet AGAIN :banghead::banghead: ) 

I should have time to really dive into the car again in 2 weeks. Flush out all that is going on with it with pics. hope to get over to the community college and talk the head of the automotive program into giving me some free dyno time. 

I'll make cinci next year


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

amazing what you screw up when your stressed out.
family left for vacation today which gave me all afternoon to work on the car undisturbed in hte new garage. 
the driving ive done was real easy, mostly just to heat cycle everything.

had the water injection wiring all screwed up. 
had a bond crack which gave a crappy idle and made the maf untunable

it's all fixed now. 
lower mani has reinforcement bolts holding the engine and itb flanges together

"go baby go" light is up and running which means when green, I have at least 120 psi water pressure at the nozzles and the boost valve has a pos connection. time to turn that thing on!
water calculation seems on target. no noticable hesitation unless I trounce the throttle at low rpm.

megasquirt kicking the water injection on at 105 kpa and 60% tps.
gunna kick around a few more weeks and then take it over to the dyno


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

About time you got that thing on the rollers. Ive I'vebeen dying to see what your power band is like.


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

Wish I was smart enough and had the know how to pull this off, cant wait to see what this things lays down congrats to you sir:beer:


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## miggs (May 1, 2008)

I would really like to see a video of this thing running if you have one yet.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the video will be on the dyno.
I don't expect big numbers, ideally will hit 225ish non intercooled. the torque curve should be impressive for the hp #'s, should look more like a turbodiesel curve than a gas curve, or I'm just plane off on my enitre rational:banghead:


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## Stussy NJ (Jun 28, 2008)

Numbers are numbers, it will be responsive as hell and fun to drive no less


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

made a pressure tester and found a couple more leaks.
the manifold is coming off, making a block off plate for the head side and going to fix the leaks, heat cycle the manifold 25x and put it on the helium leak detector at work to ensure no more leaks before reinstalling it.

may have to redo the whole head to itb manifold piece.


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## 86jettajerk (Dec 6, 2010)

weeblebiker said:


> current setup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That hood latch totally looks like a check mark over your motor So good job lol


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

making a new head to itb mani,,,welded, leak checked, and stress relieved. 

the epoxy did it's job; cheap quick prototype proof of concept. and fitment. 

the other intake parts are getting powdercoated black while it's apart.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Any more progress on the intake re-work? Pics?

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

why yes, today actually
the machinist @ work gave me a hand to program and locate the new flange on the cnc mill.
made this.




































zornig is going to weld it up. ya pay for what you get:thumbup:

the powdercoating isn't done yet, the guy spaced it, but it's only costing me $50 for all the pieces so I can't complain. he said he'd get to it this weekend.


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## Amsterdam087 (Dec 31, 2007)

:thumbup:


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Why is there a flange in the middle of the assembly? Will this be welded in?

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the two flanges and oval to round transitions will be welded together. the throttle bodies o-ring seal in the flange. the itbs are o-ring sealed and sandwiched between this manifold and the runner assembly and easily removable for assembly/disassembly and maintenance.

edit
and to be able to drop in 46mm hyabusa itbs later
edit
or put on some short stacks welded inside an goodly sized plenum 
edit
necessity may be the mother of invention, but indecisiveness and a dash of OCD goes along way too!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

should see the mani from zornig mid week, guy said he'd have the powdercoating done this weekend so I should have it together mid week

I'm guna make dubdash in southern ohio this fall, I wil I will I will:banghead:

a few odd tidbits of info.
the ulka vibratory pump has a diode on the coil. which means it only uses 1 side of the ac wave, which means it could work off of pulsed dc. 

italy runs on 24V 50Hz ac so an italian ulka pump could easily be driven by megasquirt with a 12 to 24v dc step up source with some line code modifications (maybe already an option in the water injection control) using a goodly sized mosfet could run 30 -70Hz easily.
dunno if it would really be worth doing though, I trust what rbracing-rsr.com has to say on the subject.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

zornig just sent this


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

If you want to ditch the A/C inverter, why not build a simple circuit that creates a DC square wave at 60 hz? Just set up a 555 timer to pulse a big fat FET and let the megasquirt turn it on. My question is, can you get away with 12v pulses instead of 60v pulses?

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the number of turns on the coil in the pump is wrong for 12v. you won't get the the mechanical force for the pump. If one could get a coil wound for 12v that would generate the same magnetic field, then one wouldn't even need a square wave circuit or any voltage step up. ms could pulse it through mosfet and a flyback clamping circuit. 30-70Hz isn't anything difficult for the standard ms outs. no need for pwm outs.

I'm guessing the coil would be huge though

yah it can be done, but a $10 shipped ac inverter may be enough, it's only water, the ratio of water to fuel is something like 15-25% by weight


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

welding jacks machined hole tolorances. have to recut the o-ring seal holes, they shrank about .025" :banghead:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

if there is any interest, I'm selling my rocco ms turbo water injection intake manifold














































manfold has the back freeze plug tapped for isv hose, can be plugged with a 3/4 npt plug
g60 tb with tps and the male plug with new wire connectors and seals loose to make the tps harness, bypass plugged and tapped, custom gm iat sensor and elbow and hose barb to run a idle stabilizer instead also. rocco cable stop (not shown), I had to use the rocco cable pull for the itbs so that needs to be sourced.will include a 2" straight length tube with a ait bung in it also 

$165 shipped

have 2 lowers, both gasket matched to the upper 
one stock, included
or
lower manifold modified into a water injection rail, 3 sets of amfog water nozzles and filters are included. $100 

$240 shipped for complete mani

I suggest a ulka esspresso pump ($60 internet) and 80 watt inverter ($10 ebay) and plumbing. should handle 200-400hp water flow with nozzle selection thwt is included


eab fuel rail modified, 3bar regulator will include the proper hose fitting $100 shipped

55lb bosch lowZ injectors and resistor pack(Ididn't use it, running pwm) cleaned and flowtested by witchunter $125 shipped. (I'm running delphi low Z's now)

1.8T injectors $65 shipped

package pricing negotiable

pm me


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

this just isn't working out:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I gotta get this done this weekend! 
it's coming up on a year Ive been working on this


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## Road Boss (Jul 16, 2004)

Keep working on it.:thumbup: I will be watching and see how this turns out.:thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

up and running
leak checked have a small leak on tb #3 butterfly shaft. have to see if I can get a rebuild kit.

I'm also riding on coilover sleeves #400F #300R over my bilstien sports now.
:wave:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

tuning stage now. 
the manifold for all practical purposes is done. it fits and works.

thanks zornig for welding this up and putting up with me, your a real professional. I know it turned into more of an ordeal than expected. 

water injection needs some more work to do what I want it to do. gunna start a thread in the water injection form to cover all that.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

tuning is gunna be a bitch!!
reading up on itb mode; transitions from map at part throttle to tps based, but it all assumes static barometric correction of 100% max (NA apllication). boosted, my max baro is a 2-3 axis beast of a curve that I have no idea how to plot yet

I may end up being a ms alpha tester:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

> tuning is gunna be a bitch!!


Yeah seems like it! Can you run Alpha-N with real-time barometric pressure correction? Assuming your barometric pressure is after the turbo of course. What about using a MAF sensor pre-turbo and forget about the Alpha-N? What are the turbo-GSX-R guys doing for tuning?

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

thought of that first but baro correction algorithm is just for adjusting change in exhaust backpressure:banghead: not the same as multiply map

speed density (map) is definitly the best at partial throttle. heck, highway cruise is like 6% tps and 75kpa, 5%tps is 65kpa and 7%tps is 85kpa (accelerating) and hit @ 100 kpa under 16% tps. conversly I can go 30% to 100%tps and only cover 120kpa to 150kpa (acceration changes with throttle position the whole way though), who knows how low resolution map would be once the boost goes from 6psi to 15psi

I think idealy running 2 map sensors one before the ITBs in the plenum for multiply map and one after the ITB's for partial throttle speed density and tune in itb mode with a single SD/alpha-n blend ve table would be ideal. 

really I'd like to run maf low throttle and alpha-n up top with multiply map in the plenum in a ITB mode type configuration.

im'ing Ken about this over on the ms2-e board.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

tuning is going well
ms2e or ms3 itb mode with multiply map on seems to do the trick. 

itb mode is a blended table speed density low and alpha-n high and multiplies alpha-n with the map signal when multiply map is on.

plenty of resolution with map at part throttle, all cruise driving is under 6% tps:what: so sd is an absolute must. once above 16% tps the map goes up above 100kpa into boost even though there is deffinitly power response with throttle position all the way up to 100%tps, so SD would have no resolution from that point on.

would really like to have 2 map sensors hooked up though, pre itb for multiply map and post itb for speed density. otherwise I suspect every change in boost pressure setting will cause the top end of the ve map to shift to the lean and require a retune of the ve map


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I think I'm close to getting the intercooler worked out; gunna use a 1st gen toyota celica top mount air water intercooler, apears to be the best design for my project.

water injection is worked out, just needed an addition of a solenoid valve a 120 psi no switch, a 200psi nc switch, a high pressure water hammer arrestor, two 30u insulin syringes, and a 4 1/4" tube to 1/8npt manifold, should have it tested out this week.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

figuring out the water injection still having to play with pressure and voltage


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

have a 11.5"x22"x2" 24,000 btu heat exchanger comming which should fit nicely in the ac condensor position and be covered completely by the two 11X11.5" fans I have. It has 1/2 npt connections, will flow much more than the condensor without having to rely on a high pressure pump pushing through 2 parallel 5/16" tubes then the 50" single of 5/16 tube at the bottom of the condensor.

also have a vr6 auxillary water pump comming.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

better post this pic up here. waiting on some new water injection nozzles with 20 micron inline filters this time. but running well enough to turn on the boost control valve in ms and start heading to 15 psi. does anyone have a straight clean mk2 rocco hood?????


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so the injectors need to be in the oe position. using the itb position causes more wall wetting/puddleing of the fuel which makes it really hard to tune. 
will work on swapping the injector positions after cincy


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Sounds like there will be some EAE in your future. 

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

well into eae. 

I know once the injectors are back in the right place the tune will come together. it's close already. 

the injector location and a issue with map electrical noise (not to much of a deal since I'm running alpha-n) worked out and I'm ready to tune into higher boost pressure.


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

any updates on this? 

hows tuning?


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

...


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yes 
it been up and running, the injectors in the upstream position caused too much trouble.
now it has 8 injectors with long nose 1.8T injectors in the cis position, and the gsxr injectors in the gsxr injector position. also on an aba bottom end. but not up and running yet with the current settup.

the cis position injectors are for off idle through ish 120kpa the gsxr injectors upstream will be for upper boost.

oing to run 4 injector channels semi sequential ABBA in the cis position CDDC in the gsxr position.

need to get a vr conditioner in place for the crank sensor to run 4 channel semi sequential.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Why not use the VR conditioner that's built into megasquirt?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

v2.2 box


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

current pics


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

crank sensor wired in, I still need a connector housing for the black crank sensor end. pulled the lc-1 out to bench test at work. 

Gunna revisit the MAF sensor I have installed and try to get that figured out. MAF and TPS based EAE is the best fuel delivery model for this thing, so that's what I will work on getting running right. I have a bosch HFM 2 MAF off a 225 HP Saab 9000 T plumbed and wired in. just need to go over all the software and code mods again, something is buggered with it in my current config. 
should get me up to the waste gate spring boost of 6-7 psi. then I'll need a bigger housing, maybe go ahead and swap in an HFM 5. The 300+ HP Audi A8 is a good donner for both HFM2 and 5. and I need a good battery.:banghead:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

lc-1 is stone cold dead. the test led does not blink, the software des not see the controller.:banghead::banghead:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

opened up the lc-1 and found the mosfet and main filter capacitor smoked, pretty sure that anything that could fry did. 
looking at the 14point7.com stuff now, may be able to stuff a new board in the lc-1 case.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

14point7 has some interesting products. Are you thinking of one of their "oem" wideband controllers? Let us know how it works out. 

-Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Almost running! Had trouble getting the crank sensor working, hooked the 5v in on the conditioner board to the v in side of the voltage regulator (12v) new board on the way. Scoped the trigger sensor and it's good. Also picked up an android tablet for some shadowdash action. Got a spartan PCB board from 14point7 for $25 shipped gutted the connector on the lc1 and made a reusable spartan controller. I have pics to post when i have time. Still need to see if the battery is salvageable. Plan on running maf and eae for fuel control. If I can't get the hfm 2 working I'll plumb in a full mustang maf intake. Should be easier to tune.:wave:


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## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

this is wild! good for you :thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

May as well update.
Decided to do staged injection so got a 4 channel driver board
Put in a aba bottom end so I got a vr trigger to do staged sequential injection and also did a block mount distributor 
Was getting Noise on the vr trigger so decided to do a rewire
Doing a rewire so decided to go ahead and do sequential ignition.
Doing sequential ignition so went to coil on plugs.
Doing coil on plugs so now have to re plumb the intercooler. 
Waiting on a 01 CBR radiator hose to replumb the intercooler
Since I have to pull the intercooler, I might as well powder coat it and the manifold. 
Also have an aba alternator set up to put on once I get the PS worked out.

Current picks


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Wish I could help.

Would donate $5 to the dyno fund. 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I'll get to the dyno eventually:wave:
Actually the ivy tech in town has a dyno, I bet I can get them to dyno it for ****s and grins


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the damn aba serpentine swap vr6 120 amp alt doesn't fit. anyone know if the 90 amp aba alternater or a tdi alternator is smaller? maybe a alternator from a different ap?
pic with the plastic shroud on the rear of the alternator removed, I need about 3 mm more clearance:banghead:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

grind down the alt casing


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## boost is better (May 26, 2007)

The 70 amp aba one is alot smaller came on cars with no a/c or power anything.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the intake is hitting on the back side on all the black electrical bolt on stuff. :banghead:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

boost is better said:


> The 70 amp aba one is alot smaller came on cars with no a/c or power anything.


yippie:thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

alt should be here by next weekend. also have to fab a ps pulley spacer, will space out the water pump pulley out 3mm or so also.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

The 70amp alt was the ticket!!:wave:
I over bored the ps pulley spacer id by .005" or so,:banghead:
i have to cut another tommorrow.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Gotta love old cars. 70amps makes me giggle. The alt in my Phaeton can produce 300amps.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Your pheaton also has alot more electronics and amps and speakers and such.
Heck, it probably takes 70 amps just to fire all 12 ignition coils!


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Yup. Over 60 ECU, 11,000 electrical components, 2 batteries and the alt is liquid cooled.

I still miss my 16v cars though.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Yah the tech has advanced so much, it feels like I'm building a diy flip phone and feeling good figuring out how to do 8 biit ring tones.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Figuring out how to program an 8 bit PIC is awesome! So is hot rodding 16v's

My fun car is a 16vT Scirocco, my sensible car is an IS 250. I don't even want to open the hood of the IS. There's sooo much more stuff going on in a modern well-equipped, emissions friendly car. It's intimidating.

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

it's running!
got the last of the crank sync loss taken care of. 
into tuning now 
the 06a 906 031 s 366cc @ 4bar long nose injectors in the oe injector position seem to be the ticket! 
have to do a full retune of the maps and eae, but so far so good.


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

WOOOHOOOOO I love this build!!!!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

tuning is going extremely well, even compared to my original efi setup.

the long nose ev12 duel spray cone injectors almost mimic the cis nozzels in placement. it really makes a difference having the fuel spray where the head was designed for the fuel to spray as opposed to uhm, not.


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## Mohair_nib (Jan 20, 2013)

weeblebiker said:


> tuning is going extremely well, even compared to my original efi setup.
> 
> the long nose ev12 duel spray cone injectors almost mimic the cis nozzels in placement. it really makes a difference having the fuel spray where the head was designed for the fuel to spray as opposed to uhm, not.


exactly> I just finished my 16v swap as well but I am running too rich because I have abf injectors with a higher flow rate than aba ones. So I need a lower fuel pressure to make the injectors act different but I cant find a 2.5 fpr.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

there are adjustable drop in FPRs that fit in place of the clip in fpr in the stock rail. they run around $100 ish though
what management are you running?


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

What was up with the crank sync loss? Are you still using the ABA VR sensor? VR conditioner circuit?

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

back in the usual position:banghead:



sheered the 9 flywheel bolts, all but 2 . during my first pull with the boost control turned, made only 160 kpa
I used a torque wrench, but they were reused.
the pressure plate (quad strapped), fly wheel, and clutch look like they servived


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

20v_boost said:


> What was up with the crank sync loss? Are you still using the ABA VR sensor? VR conditioner circuit?
> 
> -Alex


the crank trigger and cops was a late decision / direction change in the project

I was getting missing teeth sync loss, not noise induced extra teeth. 
using the aba vr and a jb performance vr conditioner (based on the max9926 ic). 

the culprit was I had left the noise filtering on from when I was setting up for distributor, and filtering out real teeth signals randomly

there is also a 4.7k resistor across the vr- and vr+ left in the box from when I was trying to correct with voltage dividers on the vr. I still need to remove the resistor to see if it is actually necessary.

,,,,,that and I ran out of gas while I was sorting out the ignition driving vag coils and sync loss and lost two weeks trying to figure out why the motor wasn't catching and firing:banghead:


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## Mohair_nib (Jan 20, 2013)

weeblebiker said:


> there are adjustable drop in FPRs that fit in place of the clip in fpr in the stock rail. they run around $100 ish though
> what management are you running?


Im running aba management with an abf fuel rail and everytime I start the car or hit the gas hard a big puff of smoke comes out of my exhaust and its not burning oil it smells like fuel


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

some fun pics since I can't get bolts today

you can run an aba alt setup without hammering in the frame rail on a a1 chassis if you use a seatbelt buckle bolt, same thread but a pan head Phillips




if you pull the vr sensor and the seal ring sheers and is stuck in the block, you can do this
slide hammer puller from autozone tool loan







second best use of a beer can!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the damage, me thinks I almost lost my transmission case


this is how ya quad strap a pressure plate. grade 10 low profile bolts and nuts from mcmaster


if you run the 16v power steering pump instead o the aba ya have to space out the pulley a good bit to get it to line up




oh yah 
if you do an aba serpentine swap, you can use the drive shaft triple square bolts to mount the serpentine pulley to the crank, no more stripping those allen bolts!


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Mohair_nib said:


> Im running aba management with an abf fuel rail and everytime I start the car or hit the gas hard a big puff of smoke comes out of my exhaust and its not burning oil it smells like fuel


that will happen when you mix and match hardware and management. your probably running the ecu in limp mode


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

:banghead::banghead::banghead:
since the tuning is a lot more stable and the tranny is out sitting on the ground,, and I really don't want to be dropping the tranny all the time ,,,,
maybe it's time for an lsd
:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Well that's unfortunate. But I don't have to tell you that this his how projects go sometimes. I had the bolts loosen on my rear main seal and they carved big ugly grooves on my pressure plate. So be sure to Loctite those.

I would save up for an LSD but in an 02J. Once you start making power you'll find that it's hard to keep a 210mm clutch alive in the 020. I had my stock clutch last for a few thousand miles wile I did my initial tune, then a spec stage 2 for a few more thousand, and now I'm running an 02J with a mild clutch upgrade from ECS. Just think about it.

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I haven't looked into tranny swapping in years, it was pretty rough swap then everyone fabing their own motor mounts .
I'll have to look into it again,


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

i must say,
NAPA still ROCKS!
they always surprised me with what they stocked regionally, just as good as any mail order autoparts warehouse except they get you the parts the next day if not in stock somewhere locally


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

started putting it back together Tuesday @ 6 done by 11 with stopping for dinner and blood sugars and a pod change. everything properly torqued with new bolts. the 6 puck sprung clutch disc isn't nearly broke in yet showing hardly any surface contact wear.
had a little hiccup, the alternator stopped workingwhen I went for a lunch time tuning run I have a voltage gauge but it was too sunny to see driving, stalled and wouldn't start on an on ramp, took me 15 min of jerking around and stressing before I figured I could pop the clutch rolling backwards in reverse gear :banghead: barley made it up into my garage. pulled the voltage regulator the next morning and the brushes were stuck, pulled the brushes down and wiggled em and it's all good again, 14v
got my decal fuel cut working
starting into the boost control tuning next


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Turned the staged injection on, 

set the transition to 120 kpa. went for a test drive, thought something was wrong because nothing seamed different, then set up the injector pulse width gauges in tuner studio for all 4 injector banks,,,,,,,it's working , and I can't even feel the transitions


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## Mohair_nib (Jan 20, 2013)

weeblebiker said:


> that will happen when you mix and match hardware and management. your probably running the ecu in limp mode


Well I replaced my MAF and its running a hell of a lot better but still a little rich I need to get a new tune from TT but I just have no way to monitor my A/F ratio at the moment


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

open loop boost duty set to 30 takes it to 140 kpa 50 takes it to 200 kpa at the manifold, didn't go wot so only 10psi after the throttlebodies.
fuelling looks like I'll have plenty available, gunna drop back in the cold plugs, check my compression, and get ready to start closed loop boost control tuning.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

boost control pid getting close. I have 150 kpa across the table hitting 147 stable, hardly any oscilations. spikes to 170ish kpa when I go off throttle, I suspect that is a pressure reflection as I have the map attached to the plenum pre runner and itb. basically running alpha-n plus "increasing atmospheric pressure" at the plenum, so the boost target is somewhat independent of what is actually happening post itb.

going to do a compression check and drop in my coler plugs before moving up pressure. may need to swap out my 14t to a 19t to get good boost efficiency at 15psi.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

back up in the usual position :banghead:
got a rattle/clack from the clutch again
may have been breaking traction in 4th gear @ 13 psi on a dry sunny day by pressing the throttle kinda torque that did it with the close ratio 3.94 final drive tranny. maybe I need to put on narrower wheels
turning off the boost control and staged injection till I get the 02j swap done.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Go for a TDI 02J. I wish I had. Plus I think they already come with the 100mm drive flanges.

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

One of the jam nuts popped off the quad straps on the pressure plate. 80 inlbs is good for the 10.9 bolt,not so good for a thin nut. New nuts going on and red locktited instead of blue and just up to 40 -50 inlbs.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

So since running, my problems have been with the clutch asm fasteners. Gonna take some time to work through this more thoughtfully.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I think I'm good now, should be done with all the mechanical stuff for awhile. and just focusing on engine management.
back together. I also swapped the 1 piece engine transmission cover tin to a two piece I took off the cabby and replaced with a single pice. the cabby is stock so should not have to be inspected as much. 

next steps.
1. Dyno current setup @ 10 and 12 psi
2 02j swap
3: td04-18t turbo (it's not about 1/4 mile times, it's about torque)
hopefully it wont take 4 years to do it :banghead:
but hey, that life


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

Would like to see your alternator setup 
I've appreciated your comments on my builds before 
I like the creativity in your mk2 
Looks like my first Rocco


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

it is a standard aba bracket on an aba block.
the water pump pulley has a 0.040" ish (eyeballed) spacer between the pulley and pump. and the standard amount lathed off the back of the aba crank pulley. (difference between 8v and 16v timing gear thickness)
the arp crank bolt has a shoulder that requires a couple thousandths of the aba pulley id to be opened up and can be used to center the pulley
I can get measurements for the 70amp alt if thats what your looking for.

Thanks, your builds have been enlightening also.


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

I'm using the aba block with aba crank pulley
Aba alt bracket 
Aba alt pulley 
Vr6 power steering pulley on waterpump 

Just went from 120 amp alt to 90 amp 
The w terminal is digging into my radiator fins 1/16 an inch 
I'm using the stock non overflow mk1 Rocco radiator 
27" wide OD radiator 
And my intercooler is 4" thick 
And 32" wide 
Hence the trouble with radiator fitment 

I got my 800hp intercooler for 50$ 
And built the tubing and turbo around that for best results 
I wanted to keep my heavy duty alt for rally lights 
And upgraded ignition setup but at the point I just want to get the car going 
I may reshape the W terminal so that it clears the radiator


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

If you could get the part number 
And measurement alternator overall size


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

Where did you get your alt? 
I've been thinking of using a vr6 
70amp one from a 1993 eurovan 

Or a 70 amp from a polo 
I wonder if either fit the aba alt bracket


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

it came off a '93 golf no ac


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

tracking down a wierd "Pfft" sound that occasionally occurs, my suspicion is it is the volvo oe CBV (blow off valve) as I do not have the same pressure differential between the valve and post throttle. it occurs at low idle and highway cruise and occasionally between. by looking at my boost/vac gauge and ms map gauge, the differential appears to be consistent when the "pfft" occurs. 
steps: 
rebuild kit for CBV, if the diaphram looks fine, install a weaker spring.
figure out how to run an electronic controlled by MS cbv using TPS and TPS dot

the pffft noise is random blowback out the intake valves from the valves not seating raondomly


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

off E85
it caused the intake valves to stick from black goo in the guides causing some rough running.
I had to drop more than 10* ignition advance going back to gas. on E85 I was able to run 26* everywhere! I miss the torque I lost 

found a vacuum hose that wss cracked for awhile. now I have the boost control about dialed in WOOT eace:

getting close to a stable 10psi, then will push 12.


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

What compression ratio are you running?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

9a pistons in aba block, aba head gasket. so maybe 9:1 ish


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm running dual ignition tables tps and then a secondary map retard table for boost. (map is connected before the itbs so it reads from 90 kpa up) the detonation was would start early in the throttle press when it happened, so I may be able to increase retard at lower tps/ pressure and reduce retard at higher pressures. 

but that's a little later in the project, probably leave it retarded till dyno time.


but,,,,,
since I'm running 2 fuel rails, maybe I should go 2 fuels and set up another fuel system on the secondary rail with straight ethanol or some other high octane liquid. would go back to water injection if it didn't rust the throttle plates

and

I will probably add a lsd and TD04HL-19T turbo, do a real long block rebuild and change chassis before dyno time.

the intake R&D is done. will do some cosmetic changes and make it look cleaner.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

nm on the dual fuel. I need to stop making it more complex and harder to tune and start enjoying the accomplishment at some point :wave:


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

I ask about the compression because I'm running 8.5:1 and boost 15-18 psi with no detonation. Same head as you but "low compression" 9A pistons which have a dish in them. I don't think the piston makes that much of a difference.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

so,
yesterday I was working on leaning out the high rpm wot portion of my alpha-n ve map (wastegate diconnected no boost) and spun a rod bearing. :banghead:
may have been from running cheap 30wt oil at the time, second oil change after re ringing (I don't drive it much, 6 mile commute) and had to track down a massive leak which was a pressure switch, had it all nice and drip free

as I was inspecting the damage, I got a call that the counter offer on our house was accepted so I'm going to be without a garage soon! :banghead::banghead:

probably the first time our agent got a pause and a half hearted "great news" on a good price counter acceptance in the last 7 years.

new house only has a 1 car detached garage that will be used as construction staging till next year when it gets torn down for the 3 car plus (and 2 post lift ) garage. so no car play area for a year or two

the rod was not knocking much, just enough for me to recognize it as the "death rattle". already tossed in a new bearing and will run 50wt oil to make it drivable, no more boost for awhile.

will start parts gathering for rebuilding the long block properly now I have the management worked out 

grrrr:banghead:


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## 20v_boost (Jan 29, 2002)

Well congratulations on your house. Sucks about the bearing. Hey my project 16vt was 7 years in the build stage with it being under a tarp most of the time. Now I'm like you in the continual improvement stage. But at least you have a complete running car to park next to your new house (under a nice cover).

-Alex


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

dropping in as straight aba so around 8:1 compression.
should be able to bring the timing back up a bit on 92 octane gas.
going to drop the intake valves and get em de-stickied from the e-85 and check the valve stems/guides while i'm at it

pulling motors is getting old.

a 2 post lift will make it better


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Did this ever see the dyno?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

not yet but it is close now.
tossed in way too many variables at once with this build. 
crank triggers,cops, numerous injectors and positions, e85 gunking things up in the process.
I think I have it all sorted out now,,,, if I can get a bottom end to stay together @ sustained high rpms :laugh:

i'd like to dyno this summer


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

keep at it!!! love this car


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Same here


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

back in the game.
now running an unmolested aba bottom end. just drove over to get donuts in it.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

So dyno, next week?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Lets see
closing on house 5/8, no garage at the new house, till next spring/summer
wife has knee surgury scheduled end of may 
got my door on the rocco taken out 3 days ago and need to deal with that.
nope


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

any progress?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

it was running and driving pretty good, then I got hit by an old guy with parkinsens I couldent get away from.
let it sit idling and overheated and have a coolent leak into a cylinder. so the long block need rebuilt.

I'm parting the car if anyone is interested, I'm done playing with cars, no garage and kids too expensive now. the next toy will be airborn

search my handle for all the info.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I,,,cccan't,,,,let,,,,go
GRRRRRRRRR:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

picking up a new chassis, nice clean shiny one.
building a nice strong long block and going to clean this design up and build my old man hotrod garage queen.

no more rat-rod'ing for me.

may do a nice high compression mild boost non intercooled running E85. 
similar to this rendition only with cops and staged injection and everything tucked and shaved


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## bengone1 (Jun 17, 2003)

I am gathering the hoard of parts for my 16v on standalone and saw a while back you switched to an ev12 based extended tip 1.8t injector. Then you mentioned gumming up the valve guides with e85. Did you take into account the difference in install angle from a 1.8t to a ITB setup? If I had to guess I would say you are injecting fuel onto the roof of the intake port which could explain the sticking valve guides. Check out the link.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/media/catalog_resources/Injection_Valve_EV_12_Datasheet_51_en_2775957003pdf.pdf


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

im selling this build. pm me if you interested in anything.
or email me [email protected]


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