# vrt + bvh?



## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

Just wondering what you all think of this setup, since i just ordered a kinetics stage 1 kit and am finally getting the project together....The car was previously a all-motor beast, dyno'ed at 209hp on a hot ass day and on 91 fuel....now i've sold a few parts but don't know about a few things (bvh/cams for example)
The mk4 (10.5 to 1)gasket is getting switched out for a c2 8.5 spacer
Kinetics stage 1 kit
stage 2 gsb bvh (reworked and shrick retainers/valves/springs installed)
arp headstuds
3" turbo back exhaust with no cats/mufflers (out the side just before rear tire)
schrick 268 cams (i know the stock cam is the best, but since its already in there should i change it back and sell the cam, or leave it be since its pretty new and so are the lifters etc.)
Meth injection (either snow or devils own, mostly cause we don't even have 93 octane out here, only 91 or race fuel)
and a custome FMIC (haven't made any choices on this yet)
Also already have a kraftworks tranny and LSD and upgraded clutch

As for the bvh, should i be expecting much gains from running it or? Im just wondering if i'll be hitting the 300 hp limit of the 30# injectors much sooner then a regular vr . Obviously more air means you can run more fuel = more power, so i should be hitting the limits on less PSI, or are the gains going to be minimul enough not to notice?
also on the car already is MSD ignition, pullies (i heard somewhere i should pull these off when going turbo?), lightweight flywheel all that crap
I am also wondering what you think i should expect as far as HP if i was running stage 2 fueling 42lb injectors, and something like 15-16psi. Will the spacer, fueling, front mount, and arp hardware be enough to keep this a fairly reliable setup?
thanks for any help in advance, i know its a long post but yeah










_Modified by mavric at 8:06 AM 8-14-2007_


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

the head wont make much of a difference..as for the hp numbers..Id say you will make the avg numbers..+ 10whp dude to the allmotor mods..its not the kinda thing you can guess with little bolt ons..you need to hit the dyno to see whats really going on..


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (Vdubsolo)*

im just wondering why you said it won't make much gains (not saying your wrong, just wondering) because i thought one of the big problems with the vr was the head design, and for example one of the reasons honda's make so much hp is better head design, isn't PP and bigger valves greatly improving the flow characteristics of the head? It just seems logical that any benifits in airflow would be multiplied by FI.... lets use totally made up numbers, but if its 15 more effiecient, and normally you flow 100cmf at 1 psi, then with the better flow you would have 115cfm. Now at 5psi you'd be flowing 500cfm so a 15% increase would lead to 575cfm, a 75cfm gain
or am i thinking about this the wrong way?
5 psi through a smaller hose is going to have less flow then 5psi through a larger hose right? and flow = power not pressure and it works in a exponential way, the bigger the hole, the bigger the gains


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

BVHs make sense if you have increased the cylinder bore to at least 83mm. Every little helps, the easier the air can get in and the faster the exhaust can escape, the better. It's all about making the most of the boost you've set yourself, rather than simply turning it up. 
Bill Schimmel has built me a BVH with inconel exhaust valves and should be shipping it over this week hopefully. I'll throw it on and let you know what it's like.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_i thought one of the big problems with the vr was the head design, and for example one of the reasons honda's make so much hp is better head design

Rhondas make their admittedly impressive power from revs, not cylinder filling......and they have no torque as a consequence.
Same with most high revving nat asps.....
Torque does the moving, power does the talking


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

I've only seen a couple people with decent headwork dyno. It seems like the car revs out better and the result is more hp than tq and a flatter tq curve. I'd probably take out the cams for turbo cams though.


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_im just wondering why you said it won't make much gains (not saying your wrong, just wondering) because i thought one of the big problems with the vr was the head design, and for example one of the reasons honda's make so much hp is better head design, isn't PP and bigger valves greatly improving the flow characteristics of the head? It just seems logical that any benifits in airflow would be multiplied by FI.... lets use totally made up numbers, but if its 15 more effiecient, and normally you flow 100cmf at 1 psi, then with the better flow you would have 115cfm. Now at 5psi you'd be flowing 500cfm so a 15% increase would lead to 575cfm, a 75cfm gain
or am i thinking about this the wrong way?
5 psi through a smaller hose is going to have less flow then 5psi through a larger hose right? and flow = power not pressure and it works in a exponential way, the bigger the hole, the bigger the gains

Dont get me wrong, you will make more power gains than the same set up on a bone stock motor..but the gains wont be that much..thats what im getting at...On an N\A motor evey little buit helps..and a BVH is key..On a turbo car a bigger turbo makes more power..and boost regulates this..It seems alot of VRT guys are very successful with a stock motor. w\ a fresh rebuild with ARP hardware.and the turbo of choice to meet their power goals..Not many guys run a BVH..because there isnt much need for them..just add a little more boost and problem solved..


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

I think the setup will work great and I'm interested to see the power numbers your setup puts out. Keep the 268 cams in there and if your head was built for it rev it out to 7500 (you will need a larger turbine housing then the one provided by Kinetic to make power this high). I would also add some arp rod bolts in there for added safety. Speak with Jeff and see if any tweaks would be needed given the 268 cams and head work. Keep a wideband on it to track A/F and get a VAG com so you can calculate duty cycle on the injectors with the boost level you are running. I would also consider getting ride of the lightweight pulleys.


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_ if its 15 more effiecient, and normally you flow 100cmf at 1 psi, then with the better flow you would have 115cfm. Now at 5psi you'd be flowing 500cfm so a 15% increase would lead to 575cfm, a 75cfm gain


HP is solely basep upon Flow, spark and fuel. you will indeed see favorable results from a BVH. 
(i have to admit tho, it took me 8 minutes to figure out what BVH stood for. dammit, i am getting old.......)


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## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mikemcnair)*

i made some good power with stock head just a light port job, and 268 cams, had 3 missfires, and little valve float up high, and made 371hp and 384 tq on 16lbs and with a 3.0 bottom end 9.0:1 compression,
i am gonna upgrade the valvetrain and see what happens


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (swim69bob)*

I built a car about a year and a half ago with a P&P BVH with stock cams and it maxes the 42# injectors at 15psi instead of the normal 18-20psi. It'd obviously make more power with more fuel, but if you're limited by injector size there's no reason to do it. Though, it's the quickest feeling 60-1 HIFI car I've ever been in


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_
HP is solely basep upon Flow, spark and fuel. you will indeed see favorable results from a BVH. 
(i have to admit tho, it took me 8 minutes to figure out what BVH stood for. dammit, i am getting old.......) 

absolutely true.
1. flow is what matters
2. you are old!!!


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_
2. you are old!!!









still younger than you Nancy!!!!!


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mikemcnair)*

thats what i was figuring, i want to run 42lb c2 dizzy chip (with the long ass MAF) if i can get my hands on it, then i have zeitronix in the car logging tps, a/f, rpm, boost, and egt, so hopefully i'll be able to work with chris @ c2 and be able to make some specific tweaks
i was just trying to figure out since i already have it, if i should keep it or sell it for $$ for more turbo parts. I think i'll keep it! Plan stands as this: kinetics stage 1 kit ordered. Get car up and running with 6lbs and a local shop is diong a front mount and 3" exhaust as i said (damn thats gonna be loud) and after everything is running well and such, i'll move to the larger injectors and start slowly playing with the boost controller. Car is pretty much stripped out as well, a/c gone, etc. so i've dropped a few hundred pounds out of it, traction should be an issue














Oh and what would be a good turbo to go to for 15/17 psi up high, a gt40r? 35r?


_Modified by mavric at 9:13 PM 8-15-2007_


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

mavric am in the same boat u are i got a built vr6 with BVH arp hardware schrick 268 cams eip intake manifold euro TB , lw pulleys , no ac , mk4 head gasket , Lw flywheel and i want a stage 2 turbo set up and im trying to figure out what to keep and what to get rid of .... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

there's one of 2 results that you'll see depending on your perspective... 
1: you'll see the same tq/hp numbers at lower psi's than other people...
2: you'll see higher tq/hp numbers at the same psi's than others ... 
It's because the BVH increases the VE of the engine allowing it to run with a higher efficiency... I think you'll be loving the results!


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (ExtremeVR6)*

BVH with the right cam can do nothing but help , your not going to lose power.....







but at what boost level or point do you need to swap out the 268* cams ??? 


_Modified by G60ed777 at 10:58 AM 8-21-2007_


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

Im not sure, i guess we'll find out. When im running the stage 1 turbo setup (to work out all the kinks before moving to 42lbers, jeff said the 268's would be fine, so trusting him!


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

Awesome please do keep me up dated on the whole project seeing that we both have almost the same motor set up and wanna run pretty much the same F.I set up you'll be done B4 me im currently in Iraq till july 08 ..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

Also why do people say not to use LW pulleys and or LW Flywheels???


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

I saw numbers from a guy on here earlier this summer who got the highest hp on the lowest boost levels ever. I think something like 350whp on 12psi. He had headwork bvh/P&P plus cams. I think he said the power came on very smoothly with no big torque spike on his 12VR6. So again a BVH and P&P + cams will work great for your system just get a good tune.


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (VR6DPLMT.)*

yeah i'll keep everyone updated.....today was a mess, pulling out a TON of wiring, mostly from getting broken into and having the stereo cut out....this is my first time really diving deep into the dash, boy its a bitch!
car is getting fully gutted with race interior, i can't wait to loose more stuff
on the way out: wiring for sunroof, power seats, Heated mirrors, ABS, ac, Fan controls, cruiser control, headlights getting relayed, seatbelts, whatever else i can get rid of


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

Any updates mavric??


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

Today we got alot of work done, pics will be up.We started by stripping the dash of all parts, gauges/vents/HVAC/Ashtray/oil and volt gauge etc. The we pulled the door pannels, all other plastic pieces minus the pillars/headliner.carpet in the front. Using cardboard we mocked up the new aluim dash and relay pannel where the glovebox used to be, and alum pannels for the doors, and got dinomat to go in between. EGT was pulled and plugged and tomorrow im going to go get the resistors. Im having surgery in the afternoon but i should be up and at it againg on friday and by then the rest of the parts should be here 
ordered and waiting for (should be here this week yay!)
Kinetics stage 1 kit for dizzy
Zeitronix screen/boost gauge sender/egt probe
Auto meter tach, oil pres. oil temp, water temp, and fuel gauges
Battery re-locate box and cables
Devils own meth injection
Have sitting in the garage
8.5 comp headspacer
BBM oilcooler
Master battery switch
aircraft toggle switchs
car is also getting looked at by insurance cause of the deer accident and they are going to redo the tie-rod, alignment, motor mounts (going to HD bfi mounts)


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

also go hooked up on the exhaust, having it done not this wed but the next, 3" straight pipe no muffs/cat/res.
once we get all the bugs out im thinking of switching to a garrett GT4088 Journal bearing 1.06 t-40, with v-band (can get it for 750 brand new, anyone have any opinions of this turbo?!) and going to the 42# c2 chip
also when i go back to utah on the 20th i have a front mount waiting to be installed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_ *Im having surgery* in the afternoon 

what? you ok? 
eff the car!!! health is WAY too important!!!


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mikemcnair)*

septoplasty and turbinate reduction.....broke my nose for the like the 5th time and have a deviated septum (touching one side) so i can breathe propperly and wake up in the AM with a completly dry mouth, like bone dry, cause i breathe through my mouth at night
rebreak the bone and set it, remove pieces of my turbinates that are now intrusive.....and they asked if i wanted it a different shape/look while we were already in there!








"ugh, yeah, NO! im not a girl and i dont need plastic surgery, leave it be damnit!"
I'll be wrenching tomorrow i swears!


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_septoplasty and *turbinate reduction*!

lol, while reading that i thought you were getting a smaller turbo!!! lol. 
well, good luck, i hope yer ok!!! 
any surgery involving the face SUCKS!!! i have 5 plates, and 39 screws in my face after 2 surgeries, and 12 years later still have pains and aches. 
when is yer turbo supposed to be here? this friday? so you will have it in friday night







?


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

meds and wrenching







post those picks dubber in iraq wanna see .
So whats the diff turbo bring to the table ?? 
I wanna hear this rado run http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

alright, majoy update #1

Car is stripped, electrical is getting done this weekedn
Talked to devin at c2 and turbo stuff hasn't shipped cause of some mis-communication, but im going to whistler for 2 days on monday, so stopping by kinetic and picking it up myself!









Alum Dash fab, cardboard cutout for template, been grinding on it to get it to fit right all day 








Stripped








Sitting a little higher with everything out!
















Parts ready to be boxed and shipped tonight!
























Now time for you guys help with some wiring, i hate wiring diagrams can anyone tell me what these things are?
#1








#2 Big silver thinger








#3 Bright green/blue wires to this relay which was just stuffed under the dash, not on the relay pannel








#4 haha uhhhh?








#5 blue./brown wire to the drivers side area, the rest to the pass side area?








#6


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

and just for fun, heres what came out of my nose today at post-op
i had one of these on each side.....try turning a wrech with that shoved up your nose!


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## vwjettagl96 (Jun 3, 2006)

i can tell u #2 is either cruise control or alarm


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_
HP is solely basep upon Flow, spark and fuel. you will indeed see favorable results from a BVH. 


you're assuming that installing bigger valves increases flow. In most cases. it actually decreases flow due to shrouding.


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (TBT-Syncro)*

Then why do you see gains? I was at 209hp on a na vr, and without the bvh i would have never got there, so how with decreased flow do you increase hp? (not trying to come off smart or a jackass, im seriously wondering, i know i have alot to learn...) Im a little confused on the whole bhv thing now! haha please explain
assuming that bigger valves matched with the propper porting, polishing, and reworking of the head, the flow should be optimized around the larger vavle, correct? Thats part of doing a good job on a head, is grinding out spots to get the best flow, and my guess is you bowl out the bottoms a bit so the air flows along side of the port, and underneath the vavle (this is all total speculation and please correct me if im wrong) But being in boost changes things as well, cause now your trying to force air into the champer, a bigger hole = easier time filling correct?


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

You get shrouding problems on BVH mostly on things with a tight combustion chamber, since the VRs chamber is actually in the piston, it how close is the valve to the cylinder wall, get the valve too close to it and you will have a problem.
You head seems to work just fine so don't sweat it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
you're assuming that installing bigger valves increases flow. In most cases. it actually decreases flow due to shrouding.

Not less flow, just diminishing returns as you go up in size without upping the bore as well.


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

Hey mavric looks like the inside of my rado all wires...


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

Todays progress.....got about half way with pulling wiring....got i would much rather be installing it all neatly, but nooooooo damn vw factory tangling wires together, twisting ARGH!

This is pretty much how it came out, about this tangled









Made some progress, this is looking a bit neater








what are these 2 relay's for?









i do have to say i wouldn't be this far without the vortex, so thanks everybody


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_
what are these 2 relay's for?


95.6% sure they're for the ABS.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_95.6% sure they're for the ABS.

That is where the factory mounts the ABS relays. They are actually on a fused, double relay panel. If you are ditching ABS and you don't want that panel, feel free to sell it to me


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (leebro61)*

i'm 98.2% its the ABS ......you pick up the turbo kit ???


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

got very frusturated today, taking it to someone we know who does wiring to finish pulling the stuff we don't need, paying with some beer
**** stock wiring! i hate it
can't wait to pick up the turbo stuff this coming week directly from kinetic


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

i hear you on that one thats why i got my mahanic doing all that and installing my standalone and we opted to put together our own turbo kit should be better then any on the market....


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

any updates? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

update: Turbo kit is on its way to utah instead of in my hands (i went to pick it up in surrey bc on my way to whislter) and there was a big mix up, not really sure exactly what happpened but yeah, i don't have the kit yet








alot of other stuff should be waiting at my house when i get back sunday night, then we'll get back to interior work and getting the wiring finished while waiting for the turbo to come


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## #1 S T U N N A (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

Not to get off topic, but shiat how is Whistler? trying to go there in Dec. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

Saw your other thread on that whole situation ...sounds like a mess hope it gets fixs soon ....so you can get to installing...


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

yeah i'll find out where my parts actually are tomorrow, and go from there, it just sucks because if they dont get here this week, project looses the exhaust, IC piping, and a awesome shop to work and fab in
im pissed
car HAS to be running by friday so i'll be working overtime this week on getting the wiring finished up and new dash/gauges installed, along with the zeitronix while im at it, and i'll just keep the wideband sensor and egt sensor not plugged in.
goal for the week. Get dash in with new gauges. Mount zeitronix and run all the wiring i can. Get car up and running with new electrical system.....mostly likley will be driving to utah now to do the actual turbo install, so i loose my lift, airtools, and my 3rd and 4th hands








oh man it sucks but its what happens right?


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

But hey it'll be worth it in the end and after all its a corrado Vr6 to be 'T"......
Hey or so you dont lose shop time rent a car to do your running around????








so are you running standalone???


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

Got her up and running tonight even with the full stripped interior.









got this guy installed with the ignition and push start working, headlights rewired and relayed
car fired right up, i'll get a shot of my fuse/relay box that has like 4 connectors in a little bit. Super stoked.
got the turbo situation figured out, its sitting at my house in utah







so install will be this coming weekend i believe


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

looks like you got some work done ...good to hear the turbo miss hap is over








what head gasket are you going to run???
i just picked up a EIP turbo exhaust manifold http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
what you going to run for engine managment ???
Im bought a MicroTech Standalone last week http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by G60ed777 at 7:29 AM 9-25-2007_


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

Still have to smooth the edges, apply the trip around the outside and get it solidly mounted in there but heres the dash with zeitronix wideband, the switch pannel, and new gauges.....progressive meth injection controller, and electronic boost controller still need to be mounted


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## G60ed777 (Sep 27, 2004)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (mavric)*

Starting to like a race rado









questions above what stuf you going to use??????


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: vrt + bvh? (G60ed777)*

alright little update. Currently have alot of rewiring to do (i had to throw some stuff together to make it to utah, want to clean everything up) but heres where everything is at
got the wipers working on the switch
have to figure out the Fuel pump still
got two of these







pulling 1100 cmf each
headlights are now on relay's, brights are MUCH better then stock
Zeitronix is somewhat intalled, need to wait for turbo to be on to hook up the wideband/EGT/boost sensor.
then, my kinetics kit, 8.5 head spacer, and BBH oil cooler are sitting in my room waiting to be installed. Since the whole screw up with getting the kit, a shop offered to put the headspacer and turbo on for 600, but i can't decided if i want to wait and just do it myself (which would require waiting till at least thanksgiving till i go back to oregon to use my shop)


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