# Eurovan Replacement Options



## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I sold my EV MV not too long ago. I loved it, just not the steady flow of fixes. Seemed every month something was failing. I have tossed around trying to locate a 2003 MV with low low miles but these are hard to come by and still will be ten years old. I just don't have the time to be constantly working on the EV. I have been searching for options for a replacement but there is just nothing else out there that compares. I have driven many and have kind of given up for now. The closest alternative I have driven was a Ford Flex. I am interested to see more on Ford's new passenger version of the longer wheel-base Transit. Here is a quote from an article on the upcoming release this fall... 

_The Transit Connect carries the same sort of commercial-vehicle vibe as did the big, stern-looking Volkswagen Vanagon/Eurovan._ 

The article can be found here... 

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news 

There has to be someone else out there in a similar spot. What have you kicked around or even purchased? Any more rumors of another VW version coming stateside?


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## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

The new Transit is pretty cool, as is the Transit Connect Wagon. But this (knock on wood) will be the replacement for our Eurovan: 

http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-news/naias-2013-crossblue-concept/ 

The EV has 140,000 miles on it and hopefully I can get another couple of years out of it.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I've fixed up and restored cars now for a lout 30 years. Honestly, I don't see what age has to do with a properly maintained vehicle. 

All a newer car typically does is let you neglect it for a long time before needing to be caught up. 

Take a look at things like airplanes. Most of the ones flying around are MUCH older than a Eurovan. 

I also don't thing shelling out a guaranteed $30k on a new car is better than *maybe* having to put a few grand into fixing an older one purchased as a discount anyway. 

The EVC is an easy example here. A "new" *compatible* van by either Sportsmobile or Airstream is going to cost $80-150k. Could you ever get $80-150k of repairs into a EVC purchased from $10-30k?:screwy: 

How about the EVWK? What does a true comparible cost? Sportsmobile is the only one I know that makes a Poptop vehicle you can buy complete. $80k? 

Just food for thought!:wave:


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## a1junkie (Apr 26, 2000)

I've been looking hard at Sprinters, and checked out the Transits, but I just can't get into RWD, especially for Winter driving. I thought about giving up on vans and going back to a wagon or a Toe-rag/Tiguan, but instead I'm going to replace my timing chains even though the PO supposedly did them at 111,000 miles, and have a spare transmission standing by.


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

pan-d-man said:


> There has to be someone else out there in a similar spot. What have you kicked around or even purchased? Any more rumors of another VW version coming stateside?


 Yup, been there. Arrived at the conclusion that nothing compares. Closest thing as others have suggested is a sprinter but they are BIG bucks and the only affordable ones have like 300k miles on them (used fleet vehicles). 

I settled for sticking with mine. The 5cyls don't need as much work as the V6's and you can get a 5 speed which keeps you out of tranny worries. Now my only fear is if someone hits me and totals the van. No idea what I'd do.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

djnibler said:


> I settled for sticking with mine. The 5cyls don't need as much work as the V6's and you can get a 5 speed which keeps you out of tranny worries. Now my only fear is if someone hits me and totals the van. No idea what I'd do.


 The 5-cyl motor is generally more reliable and yeah the 5-speed too but these vans are OLD now...nearly two decades. If you don't get a properly maintained one, it will nickel and dime you. These are $800/year vehicles in terms of repairs and maintenance when they get this old.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I watch the EV-update group and the vast majority of issues are on the 5 cyl vans:what:


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

Xtremjeepn said:


> I watch the EV-update group and the vast majority of issues are on the 5 cyl vans:what:


 I used to watch the group but so many of the messages are about camper-specific topics and since I don't have a camper, I quit following it. But regardless, I think a big reason you may be seeing that is due to exactly what GTI_Matt said above... the 5cyls are OLD now. Lots of years and miles and neglect make for lots of problems. The 6cyl vans are worth a lot more and so people end up taking care of them better (because the people who can afford to pay their market price can, and are more willing to keep them maintained). Also, the people with 6cyl vans are more likely to take them to a shop than they are to post questions online and do the work themselves. 

I bought mine for $1k with 130k miles on it. The only thing that actually broke on it since I bought it was the steering rack. Oh and the cat broke apart. It came with it's share of issues when I bought it though, but I have since fixed those and done a lot of preventative maintenance on it. I've been rewarded with a reliable van. Wish it were quieter on the road and I wish the interior plastic trim pieces weren't sticky and cracked but oh well. 

The 5cyl motors are bullet proof, though most of them have some piston slap which is annoying and may cause a slight increase in oil consumption but is otherwise harmless. The auto transmissions on 5cyl and 6cyls can both have issues but some say the ones on the 6cyls are worse since they aren't any tougher than that of the 5cyl and the 6cyls are putting more power through them.


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

What about the option of a Tacoma with a popup camper? My buddy has one on his Taco 4x4. It is not the same, but it allows him to: 

Leave the camper off when not needed. 
Have a truck 
Have a reliable vehicle 
Have a 4x4 
Have same or better mileage. 
Etc. 

His light, alu based, shell fully outfitted with bateries, racks, converters, legs, was about $11k. The only mod he needed/wanted done to his truck was a set of $80 airbags for the rear springs. 

I love the EV, but it is a POS in both the tranny, HVAC, and the engine/electricals over design and over complication. 

I really need to bite the bullet and install a 2.0T or 2.0TDi with a 7spd DSG. Cole, I need your fab help buddy.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Come on over :laugh: 

I've looked at pickups with slide in campers quite a bit. 

They have some down sides compared to a van. (and some upsides like mentioned.


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## dapolrbear (Apr 30, 2004)

I put up with all the maintenance and repairs so I can have days like this:


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## meinvwauto (Jan 3, 2013)

Doing the same thing....just love these EVC's...albeit an arm n' leg in improvements. Just added a ezAwning. Have yet to mount it! Fiamma is the ultimate awning but after some $$$$ wifey nixed the idea.... 



cheers....


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## dapolrbear (Apr 30, 2004)

Love the awning! Feels like it adds some square footage to the EV. 


















Had to do the walk of shame. On this trip the transmission gave up(162k mi) as we pulled up to the camp site. We camped for 2 nights and called AAA for a flatbed and hitched a ride home with friends. Good thing we were only 2 hours away from home and I was glad I upgraded to AAA Premier which includes a 200 mile tow.


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

For me, it is not so much the cost of breakdowns, but the constant fear of something going wrong with the van. I've had great trips in my van since 05. The awning is key, and I wish I bought one since day 1 (still dont have one).


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

rensho said:


> For me, it is not so much the cost of breakdowns, but the constant fear of something going wrong with the van. I've had great trips in my van since 05. The awning is key, and I wish I bought one since day 1 (still dont have one).


 
Most of these vans have 100-200k on them. They must run sometime. 

Seems like the failures are just exploited when they happen.


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

rensho said:


> The awning is key, and I wish I bought one since day 1 (still dont have one).


 It depends what you use your van for. I understand if you holiday & stay in one location particularly if you have children. My children, in their late thirties, do their own camping with their friends. We only call into a camp spot late in the day & leave the following morning for more travelling or sightseeing. 
I am on my second T4 camper & never felt the need for an awning. What I am considering is a TV/DVD combo for those long winter nights when we do most of our travelling. 

 
This is my second camper just after returning home after purchase. As a RHD the awning would be mounted on the LHS above the sliding door. My first camper was a twin slider, so awning could be either side.


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Most of these vans have 100-200k on them. They must run sometime.
> 
> Seems like the failures are just exploited when they happen.


 You are right! Mine has 200500mi right now. Though, the first 160kmi seemed to be extremely easy hwy mi since it was put on by the previous owner in 3.5 years.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Post Alive*

Wow, I was quite surprised to see so many posts. There are several other posts of the EV that have totally died which kind of gave the impression the passion was gone. I think if more of being a hope for a similar replacement has weakened. Over the years there have been several concepts for a 7-passenger MV style van replacement. It is just so frustrating to see the perfect replacement still alive in Europe, even calling the one a California. 

The Cross-Blue looks nice but is only a six passenger and being an SUV, will not have the headroom of the EV. This is what makes the EV stand out from the other mini-vans out there. 

I also understand the comments on the comparison to an airplane in the thoughts of maintaining. Planes are typically owned and operated by people with a certain amount of disposable income, due to the cost of ownership and operation. It is a similar concept but just not the same. I was spending several hundred dollars every-other week. The guy that bought the van from me had to immediately dump another $3000 into it. The money is only part of it. It is the time to fix and also, like one post indicated, the constant worry of "will we make it home". I lost a pulley and pump coming home from a mulit-state snowboarding trip that ended up costing a fortune and time off work for all of us. Despite all the issues, I still have many good memories. I am a mechanical engineer and cannot just let things go. It is in my nature to have everything work, including the interior pieces and trim. It was just wearing me down trying to keep up with the weekly-restoration routine. 

My current situation just does not give me extra time to fix. Our local VW shop is not even worth buying parts from let alone taking it in for repairs. When I do get time to get out of town, I want to be able to go and make it back. We heavily used the EV for hauling building materials and loads of people too. It was for sure put to use, as I feel all vehicles should be. It just could not take the grind and needed to go to a home where it could be more pampered. 

Keep the ideas running on alternatives. Anyone tried the Ford Flex, Nissan NV Passenger, Transit Connect Passenger Wagon...?


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## meinvwauto (Jan 3, 2013)

pan-d-man said:


> Wow, I was quite surprised to see so many posts. There are several other posts of the EV that have totally died which kind of gave the impression the passion was gone. I think if more of being a hope for a similar replacement has weakened. Over the years there have been several concepts for a 7-passenger MV style van replacement. It is just so frustrating to see the perfect replacement still alive in Europe, even calling the one a California.
> 
> The Cross-Blue looks nice but is only a six passenger and being an SUV, will not have the headroom of the EV. This is what makes the EV stand out from the other mini-vans out there.
> 
> ...


 I feel the same as you yet love the EVC. Am a retired scientist and must have near "perfection" in things mechanical. Trying to restore her to her former glory...even trying to improve the shoody Winnebago build interior. Have replaced just about everything short of the transmission; engine..chains! At 120k transmission is still perfect...chains are silent...engine purrs :laugh: 

Pray she endures... 

cheers...


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Bulli*

Has anyone heard any news regarding the Bulli concept that was shown a bit ago? It seems to have fallen completely silent, just like the Microbus concept of a long while ago.


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

This type of scene, above, is why we had to finally trade in our EV for a damn Honda Odyssey. We miss the VW with every road trip. But the monthly $1500 or more repairs were a killer. Still, she gave us 175,000 miles of great memories.


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## kauboi (Nov 3, 2004)

Conceptually, the only thing on the market (almost), is the (flamesuit on) Ram Promaster (FIAT Ducato) van. IF they make a passenger version, it would be the only tall, narrow european style van with FWD.
I believe the price will be significantly lower than the Sprinter, which coincidently has just announced a lower cost 4cyl version, anticipating the Promaster and Transit competition.


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## Founderct (Feb 11, 2011)

*Eurovan Replacement*

Here's an interesting option...http://www.outsidevan.com/camping.php. Now the only problem is convincing the wife to add a larger garage to the homestead.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pan-d-man said:


> Has anyone heard any news regarding the Bulli concept that was shown a bit ago? It seems to have fallen completely silent, just like the Microbus concept of a long while ago.


Have heard no new news but that vehicle is nothing like a real VW van. From my understanding, it's not much bigger than a Scion XD 5-door hatch.:screwy: I have no idea where it's at all worthy of the Bulli moniker.

VW:facepalm:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Promaster Grouper*

Good catch on the Promaster. Looked it up and my-oh-my, it looks like a giant grouper. Nothing I could see on a passenger version, not that that would help the looks out at all. The EV was just so great on all fronts. Looks good still, good power and tons of utility. It does look like the market will begin to see some competition in the tall, low floor and narrow van segment. Maybe this will bring some competition. Always a good thing.

I say my first Nissan NV Passenger. Its huge. Much bigger than I thought it would be from the ads. No go on this one...:thumbdown:

The Ford Transit Connect is looking better all the time. I sure hope they keep the option of the panoramic sun roof. This reminds me of my old Toyota LE. I loved the huge sunroof in the back. Made a great travel and camping vehicle. The Ford will not likely have many of the other features of the EV. It sounds like the driving dynamics may be a bit on the dull side.

I keep looking for low mileage EVs just in case a jewel comes up without a new car price tag...opcorn:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pan-d-man said:


> I say my first Nissan NV Passenger. Its huge. Much bigger than I thought it would be from the ads.


Which one? There are TWO general NVs, not one.

NV200 (more like a Transit Connect and somewhat Eurovan-ish maybe):









NV1500/2500/3500 (more like an old-school Ford Econoline):


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

gti_matt said:


> Which one? There are TWO general NVs, not one.
> 
> NV200 (more like a Transit Connect and somewhat Eurovan-ish maybe):
> 
> ...


A friend bought that bottom NV with the tall top. It is hella ugly, but he really likes it and bought it over a Sprinter, eventhough he has A LOT of experience with Sprinters.
He says it gets 18-19mpg all in. It is much cheaper than a Sprinter.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Same NV200, different name (Chevrolet will also peddle this vehicle):

http://media.gm.com/content/media/u.../2013/May/0514-chevy-small-cargo-vehicle.html


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Nv 1500*

It was a passenger version of the NV1500 I saw. It did not have the high roof option and had all the passenger windows. It was a white elephant. With competiontion similar to the VW, it may prep the market for a return of the VW version, possibly even a passenger style. One can only hope...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

One can hope, yes.

Given VW's lofty goals of North American sales, I don't see how they can do it while ignoring the van segment and pickup segment entirely.:screwy:


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes but the question is whether they are prepared to launch their current vehicles (T5.2 and Amarok) which are all engineered for small capacity 2.0L engines in the North American market which has a well known aversion to little engines in these vehicle classes regardless of their output specifications.

The next question is...is it worth the expense of re-engineering these two lines so that they can also incorporate six cylinder drivelines that don't offer massive real world performance benefits over the existing driveline offerings and potentially poor returns against their development costs given the likely limited market penetration worldwide?

If they do produce V6 drivelines ala the recent Worthesee show specials for the vans and utes...they'll be sports orientated lines with performance pretensions and price tags to match...not family haulers or campers.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Well the T5.5 is already a warmed-over T5 which did come with a V6 back then (it was just dropped later on) so I'd imagine it'd fit in the T5.5 too.

In my head, I think of the T5 and T5.5 much like the T4a (short nose) and T4b (long nose)...one refresh and it's been in production for about 10 years now. Sound familiar? Thinking of 1993-2003 Eurovans...so this model may be approaching the end of its run before a full redesign. I don't think we'll see a T5.5 here but the next one...maybe.

The Amarok has already received a V6 (though not for production, but apparently it "fits"):
http://www.iol.co.za/motoring/cars/...v6-concept-in-pictures-1.1515553#.UZTuSKLCaSo


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*MB*










Pretty sweet looking MB van...


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## dapolrbear (Apr 30, 2004)

Sprinter will be the replacement for me. Check out the size difference compared to my buddy's 144 lowtop with a Sportsmobile poptop.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

WAY too big to be a suitable replacement for me.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Xtremjeepn said:


> WAY too big to be a suitable replacement for me.


and probably too expensive as well...? Aren't these like $80K for something outfitted like that? hardly a EV replacement when the price point doubles.


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## linkindinkin (Nov 5, 2009)

Wow, yeah, that thing is HUGE! YUCK! As far as I see it, there is no replacement!


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> and probably too expensive as well...? Aren't these like $80K for something outfitted like that? hardly a EV replacement when the price point doubles.


The one I looked at as $142k

A basic worn out Sprinter cargo van is the price of a Eurovan camper. 





linkindinkin said:


> Wow, yeah, that thing is HUGE! YUCK! As far as I see it, there is no replacement!



I'm sure they are nice for what they are. I just don't see why people seem to think they are in the same class?!:screwy:

Just today for example, I piled my 2 large dogs and 15 week old daughter in the Eurovato run some errands. Parked in a short 7' parking garage to keep the dogs out of the sun. Then stopped at the park where I pulled into a normal parking space, slid open the door and had a nice lunch at the table. opcorn:.....then off to do 3 other mundane things. 

Point being that all of those things would have been a big pain in the butt/impossible with the big Sprinter. (Like parking in the parking garage instead of trying to find a metered spot large enough). 

The Sprinter is cool, but just not a real comparison to the Eurovan.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Perspective*

This really puts things into perspective. There is a significant size difference between the two, with pros and cons. The MB becomes the desired vehicle for utility and camping for sure. As a daily driver? Not so sure. It would be great to do the same comparison photos with some of the other options such as the NV (thinking this is similar to the Sprinter), the Transit Connect Passenger (not available yet), etc. This gives me an excuse to go find some dealers with one of each...perfect plan for the up coming holiday...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Xtremjeepn said:


> I'm sure they are nice for what they are. I just don't see why people seem to think they are in the same class?!:screwy:


Agreed. All one needs to do is look at the European lineup of VW.

The Sprinter is a badge-engineered twin to the VW Crafter.

The VW Crafter is one size up from the T5.5.

Therefore, the Sprinter is one size up from the T5.5.

The T5.5 is the replacement for the T5 which is the replacement for the T4.

Therefore the Sprinter is one size up from the T4.

Q.E.D.


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## dapolrbear (Apr 30, 2004)

Ya it's bigger for sure, but it doesn't drive big. It fits in all the standard parking spaces, true it won't fit into parking garages but not a deal breaker for me.

The EV is great for everyday use and weekend trips to kids sports tournaments. It's just a bit small for camping duties for a family of 5 with 3 growing kids(12,10,8yo) and all the gear needed for a 2 night trip. 12 and 10 yo sleeps up top and the 8yo, wife and I sleep on the pullout down below. I think we might be out growing the EV.


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

dapolrbear said:


> It's just a bit small for camping duties for a family of 5 with 3 growing kids(12,10,8yo) and all the gear needed for a 2 night trip.


I have only ever considered the EV to be suitable for two adults plus maybe one child for camping. There is just not enough space inside if it's raining outside. Even the bed is narrow in mine with the cupboards along one side so it works best if the adults are not too big. I have just come home from a 3000km trip in ours on my own & it was good to spread out in bed & to not get in each others way while cooking breakfast.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

dapolrbear said:


> Ya it's bigger for sure, but it doesn't drive big. It fits in all the standard parking spaces....


How loosely are we using the term "fit" here I have yet to see a Sprinter park in a normal parking space. I always pay attention to them since I was considering one. EVERY one I've seen in a parking lot is taking up a row of spaces, pulled over to the side not in the spaces, or sitting somewhere else with its hazards on. You might think they don't drive big and fit in normal spaces but everyone I see roaming around a parking lot acts like they are driving a semi truck:screwy:


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## dapolrbear (Apr 30, 2004)

Xtremjeepn said:


> How loosely are we using the term "fit" here I have yet to see a Sprinter park in a normal parking space. I always pay attention to them since I was considering one. EVERY one I've seen in a parking lot is taking up a row of spaces, pulled over to the side not in the spaces, or sitting somewhere else with its hazards on. You might think they don't drive big and fit in normal spaces but everyone I see roaming around a parking lot acts like they are driving a semi truck:screwy:


I've only had experience with the short wheelbase 144" standard top version. It fits with room to open doors in all the suburban shopping center parking lots in my area, standard space sizes are about 8.5-9.5'x20-21'. It basically has the same footprint as a F150 Supercrew with standard bed. The ones you see pulled over to the side in parking lots are probably the long wheelbase 177" Sprinters?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Yes, most are probably the lwb versions. 

Seems that, around here at least, the swb is rare. Which has made them even harder to find used. 

It's amazing how even just a little size difference can make a big impact on the perception of the driver. My short bed Dodge pickup feels much larger to drive than the Eurovan. Makes the Eurovan seem so much easier, especially in tight parking areas. 

Have any of you watched the video tape that came with the Eurovan? One of the big selling points was that it is only 2" longer than a Honda Accord and has a better turning radius. This has proven to be handy so far in very tight urban environments. I bey it will be even more noticeable in tight back roads and small mountain towns not designed for large RV travel.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Have any of you watched the video tape that came with the Eurovan? One of the big selling points was that it is only 2" longer than a Honda Accord and has a better turning radius. This has proven to be handy so far in very tight urban environments. I bey it will be even more noticeable in tight back roads and small mountain towns not designed for large RV travel.


The other thing w/the Eurovan is that the turn circle is very good. That plus the short nose they are quite maneuverable in snug spaces.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Let's see ya do do this with a Sprinter :laugh:


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## dapolrbear (Apr 30, 2004)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Let's see ya do do this with a Sprinter :laugh:


Lol. Not gonna happen. 

How did you seal up the holes for the Yakima roof rails that you installed? How many holes and what size bolts did you end up using? I bought a roof top box for my Touareg and would like to use it on the EV to free up some space.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

dapolrbear said:


> Lol. Not gonna happen.
> 
> How did you seal up the holes for the Yakima roof rails that you installed? How many holes and what size bolts did you end up using? I bought a roof top box for my Touareg and would like to use it on the EV to free up some space.




Silicone gasket maker (black stuff) in the 1/4 holes with bolts and washers that fit tight. Worked well for the same install on a Jeep hardtop.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Dimensions*

I have been comparing the dimensions of the nearest vehicle to match the EV MV. The Weekender & Camper are just shy of 4" taller than the GL, GLS and MV. The MV style is 188.5" LOA and 76.4" Tall, depending on the tires and how tired your suspension is. The closest match available currently is none. It is a big jump up and down. You can get a Flex or Minivan which are both much shorter in height. They have the similar lower floor height which is a bonus on the EV. All of the SUV style comparisons are not close enough to even mention, especially when it comes to interior volume due to the lower floor of the EV. It is just a great size. Not perfect for everything but pretty good all around. The 2014 Transit Connect Passenger looks to be closest yet. The preliminary specifications have the LOA at 189.7" or just over an inch longer than the EV MV and 72" in height or 3.6" less than the EV MV and 8" than the Camper. That reduction in height will be noticed. If they really do offer the panoramic roof this would help. This option may leave the option for a pop-top...

Just killing time in hopes of the answer from somewhere. If nothing pops up this fall, like the Transit, I may just have to build my own...


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Bulli?*

I just stumbled onto this site. I could not find a date to see if this was old information but it indicates a 2014 Bulli... 

http://viewdew.com/2014-vw-bulli-concept/


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

Here is why I can't replace my van.... can't find something that will let me do all of this: 

Tow my dinghy (had it on the side to buff the hull in this pic): 









After a nice cross country flight with friends, load up a bunch of hang gliders on the roof via the roof rack and T-bar in front: 









Then give my fellow pilots a lift back: 

















Haul around my giant breed dogs: 


















And of course, camping; complete with breakfast cooked on a propane camp stove: 









Don't have a pic of the huge rear bed, or of it carrying a bunch of sheets of 4x8 plywood, or a bunch of 10' PVC pipes..... the list goes on and on.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Let's see ya do do this with a Sprinter :laugh:



My grey one won't even fit under those  I've been in a few garages like that and had to navigate between the pipes  










With the raised suspension and the way oversize tires it's enough to start hitting stuff


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

I know I'm going to catch hell for this from the group - and I realize I've got it coming - so I'm gonna just get it out of the way and over with...

We had just traded in our '03 EVW a while back (it was our second one), but quickly realized we needed and wanted a van to carry people and stuff. LOVED ours....and Cole's black creation really tempted me to get another one...but I have deemed maintenance of an EV in the SE simply impractical bordering on impossible - the mere thought of visiting another VW parts/service department for the hundredth time makes me want to hurl... 

After looking at EVERYTHING for weeks, I decided on a literally _perfect_ '04 Quest (pearl white, leather, loaded, rear air, factory skylights, power moonroof, entertainment system, all that nonsense) which I got for much less than $10K and it looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor. Seats fold flat so it is huge in the back...adding 110V power outlet and inverter this weekend to duplicate my EVW setup and I'll be using prolly an Autohome rooftop tent painted pearl white to match. Have it in the shop today getting all the fluids, belts, and hoses replaced to refresh it. I can road trip it...camp in it...and drive it to work. 

While I know this purchase is blasphemous in this forum (I get it believe me), my mechanic said it's easy to work on, parts are easy to get, and the engines and transmissions are solid. I'll use this until VW gives me something cool to just get plain stupid over.


----------



## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> I know I'm going to catch hell for this from the group - and I realize I've got it coming - so I'm gonna just get it out of the way and over with...
> 
> We had just traded in our '03 EVW a while back (it was our second one), but quickly realized we needed and wanted a van to carry people and stuff. LOVED ours....and Cole's black creation really tempted me to get another one...but I have deemed maintenance of an EV in the SE simply impractical bordering on impossible - the mere thought of visiting another VW parts/service department for the hundredth time makes me want to hurl...
> 
> ...



Well at least post picures 

I think most of the hype "over hard to work" on it simply unfamiliarity with the platform. The more I've worked on restoring mine the easier it has become. .....but I will admit to having some of the "most difficult to work on" cars of all time in my garage, so its all relative. :screwy:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Nissan NV*

I drove the new Nissan NV3500 passenger van. I am not too thrilled with it, other than it is not a mini-van. It is huge. The main thing is the nose is as large as an Excursion. In fact, that is what it reminds me of driving. The floor is also very high, at least a foot higher than an EV. This one is out. The seating options are cool, you can remove many of the 12 seats individually to end up with lots of cargo space and retain plenty of seating options. It would be a great camp vehicle. I would hate to have to drive this as a daily driver though. Almost feel like you should have a CDL. Still nothing to replace the old EV...


----------



## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Kinda interesting that this came back up today. 

We camped all over Colorado for the last 5 days. 5 of us. (2 big dogs, 5 month old baby, and 2 adults). Moving almost every night. :screwy:

We talked a lot about the other options for a camper other than my Eurovan Weekender. 

We have daily drivers so the EV doesn't "need" to fill that need..... But.... We do use it daily a LOT because it is so useful. As a matter of fact, I'm posting from it at the park right now. 


While it would have been nice not to convert the sleeping arrangements every night. It would also have been a pain to just park anything bigger in some of the towns and campsites. 

We actually got the last space left at one campground because the Eurovan was the only camper small enough to fit.


----------



## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I looked up some Sprinter specs while on our trip and it looks like the shortest sprinter is still about 5 feet longer than my SWB Eurovan. Which makes it about 3.5 feet longer than a Eurovan camper. 

Obviously the extra room makes it nice for camping. But...


Here is a very early AM picture of downtown Manitou Springs. None of the shops are open. When they open the street is packed. 

Hard to see in the picture since the van is blocking the stripe(notice they don't go all the way to the curb and stop at the concrete gutter). The van is up against, maybe even hanging over a bit, the front parking stripe. Now imagine this street with a car or truck in every one of those spaces and trying to find a gap to park a Sprinter in:screwy: (we had a TIGHT space the night before when going out to dinner)


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Yeah, the Sprinter is a big beastie compared to the Transporter/Multivan/Eurovan. And until you start seeing the smaller euro styled vans it will continue to be...

Thing is though...in the RoW markets, the Transporter/Eurovan class seems to be getting squeezed by the smaller Caddy/Transit Connect/Kangoo class and the larger Sprinter/Crafter/Transit/Master/Daily class. There more diversity, flexibility and scope for these classes than the now somewhat inbetweener T5/Viano/Trafic/iLoad type vehicle which are often perceived to be too large/dull/expensive for the average Euro/RoW family (compared to a typical wagon) and too small or inflexible for camper, conversion and commercial duties.

Upshot is that the mid size van class is slowly becoming ever more car like with smaller engines and less practical body styles than was typical in the past. And the bigger units are simply becoming more interesting and versatile - but still impractically large.

Only answer might be for the US to redevelop its own van culture rather than rely on getting access to the European reinvention of the same thing...


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*They are coming...*

The eurostyle vans are coming, they just look super funky, and not in a good way. You can see what Nissan is planning with the smaller NV200 passenger and it looks like GM will be using them just like VW has been using Chrysler. 

http://www.nissancommercialvehicles.com/future-vehicles?tool=footer.future.link 

http://nissanblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/a888a042press628opt.jpg


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Ran across a couple of interesting size comparisons recently. Fortunately parked side by side!:screwy:


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## Jonwid (Aug 18, 2013)

Don't...want...to...think...about...it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## meinvwauto (Jan 3, 2013)

*One size fits all....*

Our trip to the Canadian Maritimes. Quebec rt. #138 ends in Natashqhuan.. then one is being loaded onto a cargo/ferry/passenger ship for visiting the many Harbors up there that have no roads. 

Can't do that with Sprinter....too BIG!














































cheers...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Sweet!:thumbup:


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## ekimfunk (May 9, 2010)

*Vans*

Those are uglier than a sack of hemorrhoids!


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

meinvwauto said:


>




I'm sure they do that all the time with vehicles and it's no big deal but somehow it still looks quite precarious and vulnerable.


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## meinvwauto (Jan 3, 2013)

gti_matt said:


> I'm sure they do that all the time with vehicles and it's no big deal but somehow it still looks quite precarious and vulnerable.


Oh sure! But quite a nailbiter...am sure that my Insurance wouldn't cover us if it ended up in the drink..IF it did...but not at GoWesty or PopTop Heaven prices; nor would the ships insurance pay the current going rate of the EVC in the USA.










cheers...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Here is part of the Sprinter issue. 

I say a 725K mile one for sale today for $9K:screwycargo van too, so no seating for a family, no camping, etc)

and then this one with only 298k miles on this 02 with body damage and a steal at $18.9k:screwy:


http://richmond.craigslist.org/cto/3967789086.html


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

I'm still looking to swap over to the Sprinter van. The 2014 can get 30mpg on diesel.

Dimensions:

Sprinter:
H- 108" or 96"
L- 233" or longer(3 total lengths)
W- 80"

Eurovan:
H- 80" WK/camper
L- 189"
W- 72"

For those that haven't driven a Sprinter, go test drive one. You'll be pleasantly surprised. I tested the 2013 V6. I want to drive the 2014 I4T with the new 7sp tranny.

If you're looking for the smallest Sprinter, you want the 118" wb, all pre 2006

The new vans are too expensive for me now.

The used ones often have 150kmi+

Here's a reasonable example for what to pay:
http://reno.craigslist.org/ctd/4117514181.html
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/ctd/4102137866.html


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

What about the new Transit Connect?

Nothing overly alternative about it except for the CNG fuel option and it's still a smidge smaller than a Eurovan, but at least it's not one of the more common V6 oinkers out there either (engines are both 4-cylinder). Also it's more Euro-boxy and space efficient rather than a lot of minivans that are more about the jellybean exterior. The new 2014 model is also a bit less commercial looking than its predecessor as well.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

Mercedes V-class coming in 2015

http://www.autonews.com/article/20131111/OEM03/311119951/u-s-dealers-might-get-mercedes-rwd-minivan#axzz2kjSSTSuO




Automotive News said:


> Mercedes-Benz may offer its next-generation European minivan and commercial van in the United States, company insiders say.
> 
> The new V-class minivan and Vito commercial vehicle will go on sale in spring in Europe and could arrive in the United States in 2015.
> 
> ...


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

Hoping to replicate something like this. Not sure where the interior will take me yet, but the wheels and windows for sure.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17258&page=82

diesel heater, solar and batteries, air vent and a small sink and fridge for sure.

Need to decide to make room for dirtbike inside or not, that makes the interior planning difficult. The 144" wheelbase model doesn't really have enough room inside for a dirtbike and living area.


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## ventucky red (Oct 25, 2013)

Regarding the MBZ Minivan post.... Have a friend at Toyota Corp in Torrence, CA, telling me the mini-van market is declining each year... What was big in the late 90's and early 20's is moving to the crossover market... At one time the Sienna was the king of the the Toyota stable, now they are giving them away.. IMPO this is not going to happen..

Saw a few VW Multivans vans while in Germany last year... One gent was kind enough to let take it for a drive with him. It was awesome, 5 speed manual with a diesel engine... Oh well, maybe VW Norte Merica will figure out there is a niche market and bring these to our shores...


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

ventucky red said:


> Regarding the MBZ Minivan post.... .. IMPO this is not going to happen..


Who knows... seems M-B wants some kind of replacement for the R-class?

And can't a guy wish? Turbo-diesel would be great... and doesn't Diamler still own Westfalia?

Anyway... more pics from autocar

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/geneva-motor-show/mercedes-v-class-spotted-latest-pictures


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

More V-class info from worldcarfans:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113120667228/2014-mercedes-v-class-spied-yet-again-will-replace-the




worldcarfans.com said:


> *2014 Mercedes V-Class spied yet again, will replace the Viano*
> 
> *Could be offered in the United States*
> 
> ...


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*Sprinter AWD in 2015*

Too big for me, but kinda cool:



autonews.com said:


> *Sprinter awd van likely in U.S. by 2015*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Uggggh that's a bit of a butterface of a van. Those side indicators too...could they look any more 1970s tacky? I hope this is just a prototype and the final version will be smoothed out a bit.


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## meinvwauto (Jan 3, 2013)

gti_matt said:


> Uggggh that's a bit of a butterface of a van. Those side indicators too...could they look any more 1970s tacky? I hope this is just a prototype and the final version will be smoothed out a bit.


Yes, it's stacky and requires a bit of high entry like the UPS/FedEx Truck if you meant the Sprinter. Went to see em' all in FL last weekend. The 19' which is more akin to he EVC, just 2' longer. Mighty tall, so that you can move around upright, hmmnn.....plenty of diesel power for the 2500 cc 19' conversion vanned camper. Gets the same mileage as the EVC 17-23mpg. I am currently contemplating retiring my 2002 EVC and make the switch. Looking for a 19' 2006-2012. The 19' is very maneuverable, small space parking etc. very good...great driving it through tight St. Augustine streets and easy parking-that's for the 19'.

MB did it right to come here and do the Sprinter dance now they're coming with a 4x4...wooo...$$$. BUT you can get one new for 30+k and convert to Camper. VW shot itself in the foot by not coming here with the T5-6. Now it's too late and no mo' T's.

cheers....


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

The height doesn't bother me for what it is but something about that front end screams "locally-made and locally-styled for the Chinese market".


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

With regard to the Sprinter 4x4...we can get that in Oz at the moment. The 'problem' is that it's a AU$22,000 option. Over what are already some fairly significant list prices (not including on road costs).










http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/8DAC8596E6BE0151CA257C07001A024B

As for the new smaller Merc...you all realise that it will essentially be a passenger car rather than a van. Unless you also get the commercial Viano version which'll be a bare bones exercise rather than a passenger van.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

A friend of mine had his US-spec Sprinter converted to 4WD in Germany using, of all things, Toyota components (!!). I'll have to dig up the name of the company that did the conversion. His Sprinter is now being outfitted for the amazing adventures that he has in store...


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

Seano said:


> As for the new smaller Merc...you all realise that it will essentially be a passenger car rather than a van. Unless you also get the commercial Viano version which'll be a bare bones exercise rather than a passenger van.


Is the Viano Marco Polo Westfalia not a viable alternative to our Eurovans/T4s?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

J_Westy2 said:


> Is the Viano Marco Polo Westfalia not a viable alternative to our Eurovans/T4s?


No, since you can't buy one here.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

gti_matt said:


> No, since you can't buy one here.


Fair enough... wrong tense.

Better said: Wouldn't the 2015 V-class Marco Polo Westfalia be a viable EV alternative IF Daimler decides to import it?

Probably too expensive for me, but I'd sure like one :thumbup:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Closest option yet...*

 I am not really a big MB fan, a bit too ostentatious, but I must admit, this is the closest match I have seen yet to a potential EV replacement. Does anyone know of talks of actually bringing stateside?

Has anyone heard anything lately about a 2014 Microbus type vehicle? The web is scattered with different configurations of a retro-style version of a transporter and many of them indicate a 2014 model year. It is most likely just a coincidence and/or wishful thinking. I have seen nothing really too credible on any new 2014releases of a 6,7 or 8 passenger VW.










Ford has not released any new information on the Transit Passenger Wagon. They had some on display at SEMA.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

The micro Bulli that was proposed a couple of years back seems to have fallen from the 'schedule'. The Microbus concept as pictured is a historical artefact...virtually a fossil.

As for the Transit Custom...check out the Ford UK website. It scored a good review from the mob at WhatVan too. The Tourneo Custom is the passenger version of the Transit Custom. There is also a passenger version of the Transit Connect...called the Tourneo Connect.

And if you get confused with the Ford Transit range just remember that the Transit Courier is the microvan (VW Caddy) Transit Connect is the small van (VW CaddyMaxi), Transit Custom is the mid size van (VW Transporter) and Transit is the large van (VW Crafter). http://www.ford.co.uk/Commercialvehicles/Transit-Range


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Transit Wagon Coming*

I went by the local Ford dealer and was told they will begin to see deliveries of the new Transit Connect Passenger Wagon. You can actually configure this on the Ford site now. Perhaps soon I can finally rule this one in or out. It does not appear that it will be a great replacement for the EV, just the closest so far. I am not a big fan of many of the Ford interiors. The images give the impression it will be more in line with the Focus rather than Flex level of fit and finish. The Transit looks to get better mileage that the MV but loses payload and towing capacity. The EV was a true commercial van. We shall see very soon...

Keep up the searches and posts. I do like the options that everyone has throuwn out there. The MB looks like it could be pretty sweet, especially with an option for two rear facing seats, perhaps one of my favorite features of the EVMV.


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

For those considering the Sprinter, do some research about the Gen2 07-13, the later years require a $120 fuel filter change every 10-20kmi. There is NO cheap alternative to that filter. There are a few other ins outs so do some homework before you pick a year.

Still shopping for a van, but likely will wait till snow melt, as the van will just sit.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*European Options*

I made the mistake again of going to the UK VW site and looking at the models they have selection from. They have some super vehicle to choose from, perfect. I would love so much to be able to get the option of buying a Caravelle...










The California Beach...










or the California SE


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

If it helps any...just convert the asking price in US dollars and then ask yourself if you really want pay that much :laugh: 

That 'velle price is comparable to the 'Velle asking price in Oz...so, to that end, would you be willing to pay US$50K for a 'Velle? Or $60K for a Beach? Or even $75K for a California SE. 

And no Oz doesn't get either of the California versions...for much the same reason.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Used Prices*

I am pretty sure there are many out there that could and would pay that price. I lived in Morro Bay, just a stones throw from Go Westy. I watched many "restored" EV and Combi vans leave the place. There was a friend that restores cars and he had a client dump $125k o a Vanagon Westfalia. Not saying there are large populations of these types but a limited sale, similar to the R32, could do much for the brand. I live in an area where guys drop $45-50k on their trucks all day long. These are not work trucks either. I would never do this but if someone loves it, they will lay out the cash.

I can't say I would run out and buy a new one. I rarely do this. I typically wait for the first model year to go by and then pick one up 20-30% off new MSRP. I have done this many times over the years. If VW does not bring over something to fill the dwindling supply of nice EVs and Vanagons, someone else will. If Ford or Mercedes bring to market a good EV replacement, people will buy. This greatly increases the chances of brand swapping. I am sure VW has put plenty of resources into market research and understand much more than I ever will. This does not change the fact that I would love to again be the owner of a sweet VW van that is less than 10 years old...:beer:


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## Founderct (Feb 11, 2011)

*EV Replacement*

Check out the MB Sprinter in house design camper (Sprinter Caravan Concept).

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/04/mercedes-benz-classes-up-camper-market-with-sprinter-caravan-con/


Looks interesting but probably another forbidden fruit to salivate over.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Ford Options*

Anyone out there own a Ford Flex? I am looking to know just how user friendly the back seats are. I only plan to use them occasionally, if I end up getting a Flex. The Transit LWB Wagon is supposed to start showing up soon so I plan to hold off until I have a chance to check this one out. I love the idea of a panoramic sunroof. I live in Western Washington so daylight is very important. I love anything with a huge sunroof.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*2014 Mercedes-Benz V-Class Revealed*

*From Motor Authority*

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1090035_2014-mercedes-benz-v-class-revealed-video



motorauthority.com said:


> *2014 Mercedes-Benz V-Class Revealed*
> 
> Mercedes-Benz’s R-Class may not have been a success but the German automaker is giving the luxury MPV segment another go, unveiling today the all-new V-Class. The vehicle has not yet been confirmed for the U.S., but there are indications it may come eventually.
> So what exactly is the V-Class? The latest Benz is a full-size MPV catering to families and shuttle bus operators looking to haul upwards of eight people in luxury and comfort. A rugged and more utilitarian version, which will likely be called the Vito, is also in the works and will be aimed at commercial buyers looking for something smaller than Mercedes’ existing Sprinter van.
> ...



*From World Car Fans*

http://www.worldcarfans.com/114013069545/2014-mercedes-v-class-unveiled-with-upscale-styling-inside



worldcarfans.com said:


> *2014 Mercedes V-Class unveiled with upscale styling inside & out*
> 
> Mercedes has officially unveiled the 2014 V-Class in Munich, Germany.
> 
> ...


----------



## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

By crikey...I'm seeing an awful lot of Hyundai Imax in that V-class


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Seano said:


> By crikey...I'm seeing an awful lot of Hyundai Imax in that V-class


Eh:screwy: Hyundai basically copies design elements that have been successful on other high end brands. Not a bad plan really.....


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Eh:screwy: Hyundai basically copies design elements that have been successful on other high end brands. Not a bad plan really.....


Except here, Hyundai didn't do the copying. That Hyundai is years old.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> Except here, Hyundai didn't do the copying. That Hyundai is years old.


You're missing the point. 

Ever wonder why every Ford looks like a Ford? Or every BMW looks like a BMW? There are elements of the design, a "dna" if you will, that creates an image. Some are obvious and some not. 

Hyundai takes these design questions to make their vehicles look like something more expensive, prestigious, etc. Not enough to totally replicate something else, but enough that you "kinda" see a resemblance when you look at their cars. 


Mercedes has built vans and wagonw for decades. Hyundai didn't have to copy the latest Mercedes to include elements that make you think they look similar. If it has Mercedes design cues in it, every new Mercedes will kinda look like the Hyundai.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Hyundai basically copies design elements that have been successful on other high end brands. Not a bad plan really.....


True but you wouldn't expect M-B to do it too...

I'll admit that there's not much you can do design-wise in terms of giving a minivan 'unique styling' but it strikes me that M-B struggled here in the face of their own brand image being applied to a passenger van. 

Of course it also doesn't help that I don't think any of the current crop of M-B's passenger cars are anything less than appalling to look at...but they are different.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Seano said:


> True but you wouldn't expect M-B to do it too...



They didn't :banghead:


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## firebrick (Oct 22, 2012)

Xtremjeepn said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> Ever wonder why every Ford looks like a Ford? Or every BMW looks like a BMW? There are elements of the design, a "dna" if you will, that creates an image. Some are obvious and some not.
> 
> ...


Well put, Cole. It may just "looks like" a duck but it will never swims or quacks like a duck...notorious Korean trick. :what:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Transit Wagon*

Anyone on the East Coast seen a Transit Connect Wagon in the flesh? I see they are at the lots there. They will not be here for another month. Must be all frozen to the ground over there...

I am curious to know how the seating in the second and third row are. They look pretty thin. How is getting to the third row compared with most other vans? It looks like the third row seats slide independently? I am also wondering if the dash is along the lines of Focus quality rather than Flex quality...


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

This help? Taken from Motortrend...I think


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Thanks*

Thanks Seano, good find. It does show more detail than what I have seen so far. It looks like a whole lot a hard plastic up front, especially in the door panel. It looks like they are hoping to appeal to the lower end of the market. The seats look good wrapped in leather but I am just not sure that this compensates for the rest of the interior fit and finish. If you compare this to the Flex, there is a big spread. They did a really nice job on the inside of the Flex, especially with the 2013 MY. The EV fits somewhere right in between if not leaning a bit more to the Flex level. The EV is for sure nicer than the Transit Wagon, IMO. I never could really get into the Focus interior/dash spread. To me, this part of a vehicle is more important than many other parts. Its the part you stare at all the time...










Come on VW, bring something to the crowd over here...










BTW, I am set to pounce on the 2015 R. It is good to see they finally plan to bring one over that can compete with the STI...and look better.:beer:


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

pan-d-man said:


> Thanks Seano, good find. It does show more detail than what I have seen so far. It looks like a whole lot a hard plastic up front, especially in the door panel. It looks like they are hoping to appeal to the lower end of the market.


That's exactly what it is targeted at...it's a small van. A working vehicle. That's the perception so that's the response. The expectation is that if you want bling you'll get a loaded SUV or a passenger wagon (though the latter is something I believe few makers offer in North America).


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

They give you much selection there in Australia? Nice wagons are not common here. VW dropped the Passat wagon a while back. Audi just brought back an Allroad wagon that looks great, but these are still pretty small for an overnight car-camping trip. We do not do this a lot but enough to know the fun. Living here in the Pacific Northwest makes tent camping a high risk of event of waking up floating. The old EV was perfect for a quick trip to the coast and so many other uses. It just made us want to hit the road. We literally travel much less now that we got rid of it. Back in my bachelor years I had an early Toyota LE van that had the dual sunroof, ice maker and rear seat bed arrangement. It was very similar to the EV and was equally successful at begging for a road trip for surfing, mountain biking, kayaking etc. The EV MV or Weekender was perfect for daily use and the road. Others favor one or the other just a bit too much. Perhaps someday someone will recognize the niche and fill it, until then, we compromise and dream of a VW California...


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

Founderct said:


> Check out the MB Sprinter in house design camper (Sprinter Caravan Concept).
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/04/mercedes-benz-classes-up-camper-market-with-sprinter-caravan-con/
> 
> ...


That pic looks 4x4.

A 4x4 like that from MB must be $70k+


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

pan-d-man said:


> They give you much selection there in Australia? Nice wagons are not common here.


Heaps. Because we have low tariffs (and they're headed to zero soon) we have virtually every major brand on the planet represented:

Alfa Romeo
Aston Martin
Audi
Bentley
BMW
Chery
Chrysler
Citroen
Dodge
Elfin
Ferrari
Fiat
Ford
Great Wall
Holden
Honda
Hyundai
Infiniti
Isuzu
Iveco
Jaguar
Jeep
Kia
Lamborghini
Land Rover
Lexus
Lotus
Mahindra
Maserati
Mazda
Mercedes-Benz
MG
Mini
Mitsubishi
Morgan
Nissan
Peugeot
Porsche
Proton
Renault
Rolls-Royce
Skoda
Smart
SsangYong
Subaru
Suzuki
Tesla
Toyota
Volkswagen
Volvo

The only limiting factor is volume and Australian Design Rule compliance - if a brand can't make a business case for a small volume with ADR compliance then it doesn't come in.

So we have a range of small and medium passenger MPV's (new Citroen Grand C4 Picasso just launched this week) plus a decent range of small, medium & large LCV's from Asia and Europe. And then there's the station wagons - again across all three small medium & large classes. 

However, because of the tiny volumes and the range of vehicle converters already here were get no specialist campers from the importers...that's all after market.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Nice Selection*

I see you definitely get many more European brands than what makes it here to the US. Looks like a much better selection of hot wagons and hatches. I have never been able to get into sedans. I have owned a couple but have no desire whatsoever right now. Maybe when I have aged more and no longer have a need to support an active lifestyle...or maybe never.:beer:

I have been working with a client to build a custom dive tender using a VW TDI engine built to 200hp. This has me really thinking about picking up an EV MV shell and building one up to my needs, using a 200hp TDI engine. After building one for a boat, doing a vehicle swap is actually pretty simple...


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

pan-d-man said:


> I have been working with a client to build a custom dive tender using a VW TDI engine built to 200hp. This has me really thinking about picking up an EV MV shell and building one up to my needs, using a 200hp TDI engine. After building one for a boat, doing a vehicle swap is actually pretty simple...


If I was starting with an EV sans engine and g/box then I'd look seriously at a mid mounted engine and gearbox talking to a Ford 9" LSD out the back....:laugh:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

RWD or even AWD would be pimp. I have been keeping an eye out for a good deal on a 2000 or newer EV MV to use as a donor vehicle. High miles means nothing. If I can find one, this would be a complete resto-mod. :thumbup::laugh:


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

pan-d-man said:


> RWD or even AWD would be pimp. I have been keeping an eye out for a good deal on a 2000 or newer EV MV to use as a donor vehicle. High miles means nothing. If I can find one, this would be a complete resto-mod. :thumbup::laugh:


I've got several RWD and AWD cars right now. Including a RWD Sprinter. In the van I'm seeing no advantage to the RWD platform. It's not a sports car! The Sprinter SUCKS in the snow compared to the Eurovan's FWD. Nowhere near as stable at speed on a slick surface and much easier to get stuck on a slick slope.

Just saying that AWD is the only way to improve upon the Eurovan for a truly functional vehicles (and they have already done that, just not in the USA modles)


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Xtremjeepn said:


> I've got several RWD and AWD cars right now. Including a RWD Sprinter. In the van I'm seeing no advantage to the RWD platform. It's not a sports car! The Sprinter SUCKS in the snow compared to the Eurovan's FWD. Nowhere near as stable at speed on a slick surface and much easier to get stuck on a slick slope.
> 
> Just saying that AWD is the only way to improve upon the Eurovan for a truly functional vehicles (and they have already done that, just not in the USA modles)


Even in a sports car, I don't see the endless infatuation with RWD unless you're gonna be hooning around and breaking the tail loose deliberately.

FWD cars can be great handlers as long as the weight balance is right. Being FWD doesn't mean that the car has to be a poor handler.

FWD is partly why the T4 has a wonderfully low load floor and rear cabin with a low step-in height. For street use, why would you want to raise that up?

And sit in a RWD enthusiast darling like a 3-series BMW and note how cramped the front seats are from that huge transmission bulge.:thumbdown:


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## 17 (Aug 19, 2000)

*Sprinter 4x4 coming to US*

http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz-to-offer-lifted-sprinter-4x4-and-its-coming-to-the-u-s/

:what:


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

Exactly. No sense for a RWD mid-sized van. When I want RWD, I reach for one of these toys from my garage:

or 


My EV is just fine w/FWD.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*New MV Concept, not for US*

http://blog.caranddriver.com/volksw...man-camper-van-we-want-2014-geneva-auto-show/

The Geneva show revealed an AWD MV concept that looks pretty sweet. Again, not intended for US. Super bummer. This would fit the bill quite nice. I am kind of getting used to the disappointment. Meanwhile I will continue the hunt elsewhere...:banghead:


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

Some just decide to have theirs custom built  pic taken five days ago...


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## rensho (Jan 21, 2002)

There is a guy that has a new Jeep JK unlimited with an Ursa Minor pop top in my hood. Looks very cool.
http://www.ursaminorvehicles.com/jeep.htm

Not easy to stand up in, but think of where you can go in the jeep and camp!!!


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

rensho said:


> There is a guy that has a new Jeep JK unlimited with an Ursa Minor pop top in my hood. Looks very cool.
> http://www.ursaminorvehicles.com/jeep.htm
> 
> Not easy to stand up in, but think of where you can go in the jeep and camp!!!



I've had built Jeeps for 25 years. I've put over a million miles on jeeps! :screwy: Had an 08 JK Rubicon Unlimited set up for 37s. Both the best Jeep and the worst Jeep ever built!:banghead: 

Most of my Jeeps I'd run to 200k and beyond. Sold the JK with only 38k on it. Fewest miles I've put on any of them and I was very happy to get out of it. 

But.......there is seemingly a HUGE difference between pre-recession Jeep and post. The 2012+ JK seems to be a whole different beast and much worthier of the $35k+ price tag for a Rubi Unlimited. 

Unfortunately I can't see the Poptop being very useful on them. The rear doors are hard enough to get in as a seat. It would be even harder with a flat platform/seat down to access the roof. Or through the back door. The storage space is still tiny Jeep sized. Which means it all has to come out or get moved to the front seats so that you can hop up into the top to sleep. 

This seems like it would have been way better as a side fold out like a Wildernest. It would have a built in awning, full length standing room since the roll cage would still be in the way of getting up front, but at leat one person could stand and cook or something while the other was in the bed.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

*Ford Transit Wagon*

Well I drove my first Ford Transit Connect LWB Wagon. I can safely say it is not anywhere near what I would consider an EV replacement. It is actually much smaller than a typical "mini-van" which means it is a "micro-van"? It is not that much smaller but you for sure will not be putting in a sheet of plywood in there, let alone a stack of them like I had regularly done with the EV. It is taller than many mini-vans, except for the EV, which was nice for getting into the third row but access was not any more gracious than anything else out there. In some ways better, in other ways worst. The second row folds down into the floor about halfway and then you have to step on top of the back of the seat to get in or out. It is a good thing it is taller or this would not work. A younger healthy adult could handle this but I would never ask anyone not sure footed and somewhat limber to make the trek. The second row has a fixed angle to the back. It is not too vertical but would really be nice if it could recline just a bit. Long trips in the second row would not really be very nice. The second row also does not slide. It is where it is. The third row seats slide independently. Nice bonus but not as nice as if the second row could as well. The third row is for sure a kids realm. It is built on the Focus platform and feels like it. The 2.5 really groans but does a descent job. I imagine if you had a spirited style of driving, your mileage would really suffer. This engine is adequate but if you want to scoot more quickly, your going to have to keep the foot into it. I am sure, at least I would hope, it will get better mileage than the EV. I regularly got 15mpg in mine. It never did feel underpowered though, perhaps due in part to the great drive ratios. 

At the end of the day, the TCW is a light duty car based small mini-van and the EV is a commercial based FWD proper van. I do hear that Ford is coming out with a FWD Transit commercial duty van in 2015? It looks like the Transit Connect, just larger. Same plastic interior as the Connect and the current E series. It too looks like it was taken from the Focus. Many people like the Focus interior or they would not sell so many. I don't. Speaking of looks, have you seen the Ram Promaster? Wow, can we say pedestrian impact front end? It looks like the front bumper got stung by a bee!










Come on VW, bring over the current model of the Caravelle! It is just right. Wow, am I a snob? No, just spoiled by the EV MV I used to have...


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## running bear (Apr 22, 2014)

when my 2d '93 ev wore out, I jacked up the radiator cap and drove an e-350 super-duty15-passenger van underneath it. the ford is not without fault, but after years of asking vw to bring the t-5, time ran out. I would submit that the ford was lacking when I got it, but I am pleased to report that there are better parts than o.e.m. for it on the market and those parts have allowed me to make it handle like the European it replaced. it gets 14 mpg, the rwd in snow is terrible, but it has required 30% of the repair time that the ev required; it is easy to work on as long as you respect the fact that it is bigger beast. i agonized long and hard before doing this, American business does it's work out of this platform, parts are everywhere, and plentiful. come to think of it, it reminds me a lot of a brand who used to be much the same all those long years ago.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Got any pics? Sounds pretty cool. I had thought of this but I really like the lower floor. The E series is so high. I have seen a few lowered and they don't look too bad. The A-Team van is the coolest though...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

My Eurovan next to the Sprinter












And a Vanagon (modded)


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Trying to ease the frustration so just picked up a new JSW TDI. Maybe this will keep me calm for a while. Perhaps once life calms down a bit, like it never does, I can embark on a van build.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I am on the hunt for a donor van to build from. If I can find a reasonably priced EV MV Weekender, great, but if not, I will just use a Ford or Dodge van. If anyone spots a good donor, let me know. If it is an EV MV, I don't care if the engine is toast as I plan to swap it out for a TDI drivetrain, possibly even manual tranny. If I end up with a full size V8 van, I will drop it a little to get a better load floor height and build a custom EV MV type interior. This will keep me off the streets for a while...:beer:


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

pan-d-man said:


> I am on the hunt for a donor van to build from. If I can find a reasonably priced EV MV Weekender, great, but if not, I will just use a Ford or Dodge van. If anyone spots a good donor, let me know. If it is an EV MV, I don't care if the engine is toast as I plan to swap it out for a TDI drivetrain, possibly even manual tranny. If I end up with a full size V8 van, I will drop it a little to get a better load floor height and build a custom EV MV type interior. This will keep me off the streets for a while...:beer:


Sounds like a good solid weekend of work!


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## linkindinkin (Nov 5, 2009)

Ran across a couple of brand new Dodge Ram 2500, so I slipped in beside them for a few comparison picks, for the record. Those Dodge vans have a face only a mother could love, lol.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Yes, they are pretty ugly. They do look like they could handle being a Ram though. They call it a Ram and it looks like a Ram, perhaps it is a ram. In many countries, that is what you need to get through the mayhem. Maybe this was their vision. I think I will go back and watch Mad Max now...


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## paulpap (Mar 4, 2010)

*ram van test drive*

I test drove the new RAM 1500 short wheelbase. It drove like a truck with no payload. Unless you put a lot of heavy camping gear in it it's way too harsh for me. My EV MV weekender has a great ride!


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

pan-d-man said:


> Well I drove my first Ford Transit Connect LWB Wagon. I can safely say it is not anywhere near what I would consider an EV replacement. It is actually much smaller than a typical "mini-van" which means it is a "micro-van"? .


In VW-ish we would call it a Caddy today (by size and type)

http://www.volkswagen-nutzfahrzeuge.de/de/modelle/caddy.html


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## Wimwesty (Jun 26, 2011)

*Westfalia* is today working on a new *Mercedes V Class* Marco Polo camper (coming out on the end of 2014) and also for a new * VW Camper*, it will be launched in the beginning of 2015 as the *successor of the T5, the new Volkswagen T6*










Wim


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

This is great news! Unless you live here in the great big We-don't-get-those-here USA. If you want something here, you have to build or restore it. It is not that bad of an option, it just takes time and money. I actually looked at some older Dodge vans to try to find one to convert into a sweet ride. Check this one out...


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## scirocconaut (Oct 7, 2011)

I would never own a dodge/Chrysler/Pontiac/whatever 
Vehicle 

If you are going to build one from the ground up take a west fails safari van
FYI dodge sprinters are not a dodge product 
But a rebadged Mercedes built from kits shipped to America

I'm sure the kits are cheaper than the high mileage asking prices we see here

Think about your time and effort into a build 
Time is money {hrs} x (how much your time is worth) + what you think is a reasonable price
And buy a damn. Caravelle in canada since all the vws Europe doesn't want us to have go there


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

:sly:


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

_"I would never own a dodge/Chrysler/Pontiac/whatever 
Vehicle 

If you are going to build one from the ground up take a west fails safari van
FYI dodge sprinters are not a dodge product 
But a rebadged Mercedes built from kits shipped to America

I'm sure the kits are cheaper than the high mileage asking prices we see here

Think about your time and effort into a build 
Time is money {hrs} x (how much your time is worth) + what you think is a reasonable price
And buy a damn. Caravelle in canada since all the vws Europe doesn't want us to have go there"_
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Thinking) ...(I know I'm gonna regret commenting on this...just let it go..but d**mn...OK, I'll reluctantly play along)

Actually, a 94-00's Dodge van approach is not a bad idea. We had a Dodge conversion van ('94) with a 318 and I never did _anything_ to that van and drove it all over the country for years...and that engine? It would pull your house off the foundation. Their 383's (or whatever they were) are the same way. Also, they are cheap in comparison. Strong engine and trans...and cheap. Not a bad combo.

...and I dont even know what to say about that Caravelle thing or the "kits" thing...:what:

D*mn...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> _
> 
> (Thinking) ...(I know I'm gonna regret commenting on this...just let it go..but d**mn...OK, I'll reluctantly play along)
> 
> ...


_

It's been amazing to me that you can buy a domestic conversion van for pennies compared to a VW or Mercedes. 

Definitely lots of bang for the buck. 


So that brings up the question..."Why are they so cheap?" Is it just styling?_


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

I guess so... I guess that and a general feeling they weren't as goood as the GMC's or Fords. I dunno....I never understood that as well. When I was shopping for mine, the Dodges with either engine were all a much better value (in my opinion) than the others. I knew the engines were rock-solid and had been for decades. I thought it was a no-brainer. So..to the guy looking at Dodges for a conversion...thats a good call. As long as you aren't looking for something smaller to put in a garage, you're in good shape.

This topic is one of the things that keep me scratching my head about some of the crazy prices of the used Sprinters and VW's. Supply and demand I guess...:beer:

Late edit: My...that thought gives me chills. A Dodge 318 in a Eurovan? Sign me up anyyyyyy day for that. Granted it is an unfair comparison because one of the reasons VW crammed that junk trans in there in the first place was because they had no room. Sooo, in fairness, I'm not being fair..I can't compare a huge RWD trans with a 318 to a smaller V6 stuck in sideways with a trans the size of a basketball... its comparing apples to oranges...but still. The thought is fun. I'd drive that van for 25 years and never do s*** to that engine...

I know I know...its a stupid thought. But fun..


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Here is how I came to the conclusion of even considering using a Dodge B1500/B150 for a custom build...

I have owned a used up EV MV and loved it, except for the constant trickle of repairs. This eventually let to the decision to sell it. I knew I would miss it but my frustration with repairs had eclipsed the joy the vehicle brought. I was no longer comfortable using it for long road trips. The last few ended with towing the vehicle home. The guy that bought it immediately dumped $3,000.00 into repairs and that was just to address the necessary ones. I have owned every vintage of VW van from a 1958 Kombi to the 2000 EV MV and many in-between. They are all great, but also have what I would consider a useful life span. If what I wanted was a Sunday driver, no worries with any of them. I tend to use the daylights out of every vehicle I own so it better be able to pull its weight or it gets replaced. This is how I ended up where I am now, with no EV MV replacement or equivalent. Yes, I have a hole in my arsenal...

I have owned the following Mopar products with the 318...1968 Fury Sport III Convertible, 1997 Grand Cherokee. and 1999 B150. I have also had a few with the 360. This one can't keep oil inside the case to save its life. I have owned some heavier duty GM and Ford vehicles as well and even an International. The 318 engines were never a problem for me but I can't say the same for the trannys or other parts of the vehicle. Overall though, each one was enjoyable and contributed its fair share to my experience of my life's collection of vehicles. I don't regret any of them. My Chevy truck was great too but I have no interest in getting one of their vans. Of the three full size vans, to me the Dodge looks better than the Chevy or Ford ever could. Any of them will need worked on in their life span but the Dodge just tips the scale more in its favor than the other two. The Sprinter is just too large and expensive to be considered. The newer generation of Ford and GM vans have no non-commercial qualities to them whatsoever. They do great at what they are intended for, work. They look like it too. The newest round of commercial vans leave much to be desired for the non-commercial segment. The Nissan, Ram, Chevy and Ford are true commercial grade, and look it (except maybe the Ram, I am still not sure what it looks like). Ford may have something with it's next generation of commercial Transit due next year. The last generation (late 90's to 2003) of Dodge vans don't make a bad looking work and play and passenger van. The one in the picture I posted above looks pretty sweet to me. Almost better than the old A Team GMC, foo. I have even been on the hunt for a used up EV MV and see one every once in a while for less than $7,000.00, but they all are pretty hammered and will need work to be deemed safe for long hard road trips. Also having owned one, I am all too familiar with all the hidden things that have either failed or are right on the edge of it. Handles, latches and other hardware, AC, controls, cruise, not to mention the engine and tranny issues. I lived in Morro Bay, CA for a little while which is next door to Go Westy. They do a good job of restoring the Vanagon and EVs but they also charge a hefty price for them. The list of refit parts though still leave some that will no doubt pop up in the near future. I would not consider them a fully restored version but rather just a little more extensive than a freshening up. They are a business set up to make money and they do. There is a reason they are located where they are. That part of the country love the VW EV and will pay handsomely for them. One friend of mine that restores and builds custom cars had a guy dump $125,000.00 on a Synchro Vanagon. It was a pimp ride but that's big money.

I have not pulled the trigger on anything yet. I have looked at a few local Dodge vans but did not even drive them. I have to get rid of the Nissan and F250 right now before I would even have room for another van. Just picking up the 2014 JSW TDI has taken the edge off too. The hunt for the large vehicle in the family has faded a little into the background but is for sure still on my mind. It's what keeps me coming back to this thread...:beer:

One comment made above talked about getting a Caravelle in Canada. Has anyone ever been successful in bringing one across the border and getting it licensed? This is not an easy process. If anyone has any good data or knowledge on this option, please spill!:thumbup:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pan-d-man said:


> One comment made above talked about getting a Caravelle in Canada. Has anyone ever been successful in bringing one across the border and getting it licensed? This is not an easy process. If anyone has any good data or knowledge on this option, please spill!:thumbup:


That was a comment made with what sounded like a lot of assumptions and no facts.

The Caravelle was NEVER sold in Canada, so there wasn't any built to CMVSS.

Vehicles originally built to CMVSS are easier to get into the US than ROW vehicles because CMVSS and US-FMVSS are similar.

But as EV99 pointed out from NHTSA's site, if you side trip a Caravelle from the EU through Canada and then try to get it to the US, it won't work. Even if brought up to CMVSS first and brought to Canada via their 15-year rule, since it was not originally built to CMVSS you probably won't get a letter from the original manufacturer that would be helpful to getting it into the US.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Could a person cube a vehicle in Germany with a sawzall and plasma cutter, import it as parts, then put it back together here and license it as a kit car? I know we are getting a little crazy here but desperate times call for desperate measures...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pan-d-man said:


> Could a person cube a vehicle in Germany with a sawzall and plasma cutter, import it as parts, then put it back together here and license it as a kit car? I know we are getting a little crazy here but desperate times call for desperate measures...


Maybe, but why? I guess it depends on what you're after. If you're after the body and drivetrain both, that's one thing. But most of us here are generally OK with Eurovan bodies and it's the TDI motor and 02G manual trans that we're all leg humping. Why not just import the drivetrain and use that in a conversion into a US-spec van somehow? That might be less of a headache.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Those new Ram's from earlier on are simply rebadged RoW Fiat's. You can fix the ride by fitting de-rated rear springs...that's what VW did (and still do) to the Transporter to make the Eurovan. Fiat also do this...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

So I saw my first Ram Promaster in the wild today (at least I think it was my first...or at least the first that I got more of a fleeting glance of). I was behind it for a few miles on the way to work. It was a rental one from Enterprise.

This particular one looked like it was somewhere between a Nissan NV3500 (?...the big Nissan van, not the little NV200) and a Sprinter. The ride height looked higher than a Sprinter (or at least could have seemed that way due to the amount of rear suspension hardware I saw underneath it clearly) and the body from the back wasn't quite that "tall rectangle" that characterizes most Sprinters but it approached the more cube-proportion-like body of the Nissan.

And while we're talking rear suspensions, over bumps it sure did look like it bounced quite sharply, noticeably, and stiffly. It actually doesn't have much suspension ground clearance due to the design which looked like a drop-axle (by that I mean the axle looked lower than the centerline of the wheels) that hung fairly low and then on top of that were one leaf spring either side. Definitely primitive and commercial and not very IRS-Eurovan at all.

Don't know what was under the hood but it did move...the driver took off quite quickly from traffic lights.

And somewhat ironically, when we parted ways on our drive, it pulled in here at the first address on this list :

http://www.bilsteinus.com/about-bilstein/contact/


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## paulpap (Mar 4, 2010)

*spring swap out*

I talked to my local ram dealer after I took the test drive about swapping springs. He tried to find someone to do it and couldn't, and had never heard of doing that. Also there might be warrantee considerations. The new Ram van was a decent replacement for me except for the ride and it being so new in the US market.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Fiat Ducato (what you call Dodge Ram) can be had in payloads as low as 1,460 kg so it might be worth checking what the local spec is.

The other thing to bear in mind is that these suckers have a leaf spring rear on a beam axle...so a perfect candidate for an air ride conversion. http://www.vbairsuspension.com/nl/files/239.html

Also air ride is actually offered as an option by Fiat in most markets including ours.

Here's something else that might interest/appal some here - a comparison between some of the basic vans on the market in Oz http://www.caradvice.com.au/291602/...-mercedes-benz-vito-v-volkswagen-transporter/


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Nice article of the options available there in Australia. Thanks for sharing...

That is a pretty impressive line-up of commercial vans. It seems we are a bit behind here in the US. It sounds like the Ford Transit will be coming next year but doubtful to have the diesel or manual option. I am really surprised that there is not more of a market here for this segment of utility vehicles with a diesel and manual gearbox. Looking at the number of vans sold per year there, it is much lower than what is sold here. It must be related to federalization requirements, import taxes etc. that just push the price too high (and cutting profit margins) even with a higher market volume potential.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pan-d-man said:


> Nice article of the options available there in Australia. Thanks for sharing...
> 
> That is a pretty impressive line-up of commercial vans. It seems we are a bit behind here in the US. It sounds like the Ford Transit will be coming next year but doubtful to have the diesel or manual option. I am really surprised that there is not more of a market here for this segment of utility vehicles with a diesel and manual gearbox. Looking at the number of vans sold per year there, it is much lower than what is sold here. It must be related to federalization requirements, import taxes etc. that just push the price too high (and cutting profit margins) even with a higher market volume potential.


The Transit I think is supposed to be built in the US (or at least in some NAFTA location) so the import taxes might not be an issue. I bet it's the anti-MT mentality in the US and our relative unlove of diesel that makes a hard case for anything other than an AT gasser.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*Mercedes Marco Polo*

From worldcarfans.com July 8, 2014



worldcarfans said:


> *Mercedes Marco Polo introduced, based on the V-Class*
> 
> Mercedes has introduced the new Marco Polo at the Caravan Salon in Düsseldorf, Germany.
> 
> ...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Sweet!


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Land yacht?

More and more rumors are popping up on a return of the Microbus...

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140514/CARNEWS/140519934


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

pan-d-man said:


> Land yacht?
> 
> More and more rumors are popping up on a return of the Microbus...
> 
> http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140514/CARNEWS/140519934


With the emphasis on 'micro'....


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Seano said:


> With the emphasis on 'micro'....


But it does say this:

"The Bulli was nowhere near the size of the original Microbus, and it appears that Volkswagen will be planning something that is a couple sizes larger for a production version of the Microbus"

That's promising.

That silly Bulli thing from a year or two ago was nothing more than a hatchback with a two-tone paint job.:thumbdown:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Having just owned a Nissan Cube (go ahead and throw mud now) I am now back in a JSW. I must admit, there are many aspects of the Cube that I really do miss. At first, the very vertical interior took some getting used to but now I am having an even harder time getting used to the low roof of the JSW. So far, I have yet to begin to like the change. I love the JSW for many reasons, much that had me cursing the Nissan. The Cube was just too short but for its size, could swallow a huge volume of stuff (something I tend to do regularly) and comfortably seat for 6'+ adults. The JSW does OK on the volume end but really is difficult when it comes to making four 6'+ adults feel comfortable. The new Mazda3 is much worst. It felt light the windshield header was touching my forehead. We have not sold the Cube yet and every time I use it for something, it feels refreshing to have that extra bit of space up high. I also love the fact that the back seat can slide up almost touching the front seats or back far enough to give long-legged passengers plenty of space. Having said all this, the thought of a VW built Microbus has me interested. I know that it will never take the place of a T-4 EV but it may just be the ticket for our small car. Driving dynamics though are important. When you get too large, you really lose the tossability of the car. The Cube drove much like a small car, even though it has a lot of vehicle up higher (our Tiguan was not even close to being tossable, much too bulky). It actually feels more sporty than the JSW. The Cube actually feels very similar to the Cooper S, just without the power. Having the wheels at the far corners contributes much to this feeling. The JSW does barely OK in the sportiness feel. I must do something about the 1st gear start lag. It is unbearable. You have to slip the clutch in 1st to get going. Without sufficient throttle, it poops out. This is by far the easiest car I have ever had to stall-out. I have owned two Golf TDIs (ALH) and one Jetta TDI (BEW), none of which had this same feeling. I keep thinking I will catch on the process of a smooth take-off but I still struggle. Anyone else having similar experiences? Perhaps this is a good search in the TDI forums...

I guess what I am trying to give my feelings on is that I think I would enjoy a Microbus/Bulli version built on the Beetle/Golf platform. Of course, this all is directly connected to how well they pull it off. The concepts seen over the years are not bad. Lets hope they pull something together that fits the market well. I owned a new Beetle when they first came out in 1998 (bought originally for my sister) and did enjoy driving it. It was not for me though so ended up trading for a Golf. Thoughts of a new Bulli has me interested but by no means hoping for a replacement for the EVMV. For this I must continue the quest...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pan-d-man said:


> The JSW does barely OK in the sportiness feel. I must do something about the 1st gear start lag. It is unbearable. You have to slip the clutch in 1st to get going. Without sufficient throttle, it poops out.


Mk6 Golf TDI 6MT owner here, so same car more or less. It's easier to stall in that while a gas engine if you lug it or aren't giving it enough throttle it will buck and kick as a warning whereas the TDI just says "Nope!" with almost no warning and quits. The very first thing I did with mine while driving it off the dealer lot was stall it.:laugh: I also find I don't like the turbo lag or maybe it's the electronic throttle (not sure which) but flooring it at low revs it's downright dead and then at about 1700 rpm it's like a switch and the power tangibly comes on. This is my first turbo car of any kind and while perhaps it's less turbo lag than in older turbos, it's still definitely perceptible.


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## definition56 (Jan 8, 2005)

Kinda chiming in late here and I'm not a regular in these parts but great discussion. 

I've driven VW's all my life....the only cars I've ever owned, until recently. Back in 2001, while we didn't have kids at the time, when we saw the Microbus concept at NAIAS, we were totally sold. Would have stood in line to buy one (and we did to buy a New Beetle back in '99). With VW's promises of production falling flat on their face, we stuck with a Jetta Wagon, a Jetta, and eventually a Passat Wagon. Within the last couple years, we needed a larger family vehicle and the N. Amer. standard minivan's just aren't us....VW fell flat on their face again. Routan, nope. Toureg, too small, too expensive for what it is. We REALLY wanted a new VW van...but...VW slapped us in the face again with the T5 "California".....only offered in Europe. Ha. Good one. Then they slapped us in the face with the Bulli concept...looks like a van...cute, but not a van. We looked at the CrossBlue in Detroit this past year and laughed. Judging by the cost of the Touareg, to slot the CrossBlue, the base price would have to be over $50k and it's about the size of a Ford Explorer. Sorry, Nope. 

We ended up buying a new Toyota Tundra Crew Max...huge cabin with truck functionality. I know, crazy, but we love it. We're still in the market for a van but nothing's hit the sweet spot yet. We looked really hard at the Nissan NV but it just didn't have that special feel that the Eurovan's had....and they are ugly as sin. We even considered buying one and customizing the interior We've also looked at all of the small commercial vans like the Transit but most are too small or too large, or too spartan even with the passenger options. 

I'm baffled here myself, especially after spending some time on the UK VW site and seeing how perfect the Caravelle or the Caddy Maxi would be for us. And if you are into camping...you can "ironically" still buy a California Camper Van....in the UK. Sorry for the rant here but our days of even considering driving VW's are dwindling. Coming from a LONG time VW family. 

This article pretty much sums it all up.
http://commonplacebook.com/culture/geek-bling/volkswagen-microbus-2014-and-concepts-of-the-past/


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Has anyone checked out a new Ford Transit full size van, not the passenger wagon? It appears they are on dealer lots now except none have here in Western Washington, at least that I have seen yet. The Ford site indicates they are available in a passenger version as well. It looks like the load floor may be lower than the old E Series vans but it may be similar to the Ram Lipmaster, or Promaster.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Transit competes against the VW Transporter in our market despite being in a larger size class...mainly because they are similar in price. However, the new Transit Custom is the new direct competitor and the Transit is free to punch hard against the Crafter, Sprinter etc...

They are a good tough drive (though not remotely light van like) but the previous generation had a well earned reputation for premature corrosion early in its life.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*WestfaliaNugget*

Ran across this on Ford.de ... any chance we'll see this in the US?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)




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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I think its great too that Ford will be giving an option of the 2.5 diesel in the new Transit. I know nothing of this engine but we will now have a chance to find out.:thumbup: All indications right now are that Ford is coming the closest to bringing us the best EV replacement. Recent indicators are that VW is planning to cut back on the lower profit vehicles which means that bringing over limited quantities of special vehicles becomes much less likely. I am actually pretty surprised they are bringing the Golf R this way. The new three row SUV does not have the look of success but you never know...


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## paulpap (Mar 4, 2010)

*tried the transit*

I test drove the transit high roof 148" wheelbase a few days ago. It has the best ride of all I have tried MB Sprinter, Dodge RAM, Nissan, and Chevy Van. Quiet, powerful, lots of room. It's big though, I am more interested in the low roof 130" that will fit in my garage, it's not available in this area yet for test drive. It could have a much more choppy ride than the 148" model. Has anyone driven the low roof 130"


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

I spotted a prototype of Hyundai's forthcoming large van on Saturday morning, approaching the I-5 Tejon pass from the south.



There was a sticker on the driver's door window that said PROTOTYPE VEHICLE in red text, along with some fine print. Likely legalese that stated that safety equipment may not function properly, etc. 

Apologies for the blurry shot, the iPhone decided to focus on the window instead of the van. A wrapped Hyundai badge was clearly evident, you can see it if you look closely. Development is pretty far along.



Not sure if they'll offer it in the US, but it's being tested here. 

The new-style van market sure is heating up.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

So nice to see a low loading floor. This makes a big difference for interior volume. The more the merrier. Maybe VW will wake up and see there is a party starting. They already have the vehicles in production, they just need to make a case for US distribution.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

J_Westy2 said:


> Ran across this on Ford.de ... any chance we'll see this in the US?


I think this is based on the Ford Tourneo -- which isn't scheduled for NA. So - probably not much chance it makes it here. 

It does make me wonder about the older Ford Transit though -- there seems to be community of users that have gone ahead with converting these. Could be an option for daily driver or 2 person camper.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

It's time to stop deliberating and waiting for VW to build a proper EV replacement. After driving every option conceivable, I think we are down to the new Sienna. I don't like its looks but it has the best interior layout for what we need and drives decent enough. For our up coming cross-country trip we will probably pick up a little tear-drop trailer to tow unless we can outfit the van properly for a 6 week journey. The full size vans are just too big for daily driving and the SUVs just don't have the interior volume for comfortable car camping. I am sad but have to move on...


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Now that I have put a few miles on the Sienna, I appreciate its utility but still sorely miss the EV. Its just not the same but it will have to do for now. I just don't have the time to build a van and am not interested in paying $40-50 for one to be build for me. Someday VW will take a look across the water here and see what the market is really looking for.


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## tiiger (Nov 29, 2004)

When our Eurovan had a water pump fail, I had the chance to rent a Sienna for a week. (Two 150+ mile trips in it, too.)

It's a beautiful rig, but I couldn't wait to get my EV back. The rental Sienna had all the bells and whistles: Automatic doors, leather everywhere, nav screen, backup-camera, quiet interior. But I never felt like it was connected to the road. Steering was rather vague, and I just got bored driving it. And the sticker was $36K. 

Now, I don't mean to post this to diss you on your selection. It was a super nice van, and I'd be totally fine with one. But there is something about the EV that, even at 10+ years old, still captivates a lot of people. It's nice not having a car payment, and even if I have $1000 worth of repair bills a year, it's still a lot less than a new vehicle.

Reliability is worth something, though! (And the EV did strand us last weekend when the water pump died.)

It's a tough call, that's for sure. 

You would think, in this day and age, with air travel being such a monster hassle, VW would find a way to bring a great camping/travel van back to the states. I think it would be supremely popular, even if it wound up being kind of expensive. People will pay for it, I'd think.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

tiiger said:


> But I never felt like it was connected to the road.


Not grounded to the ground? Apparently the Camry has that feature, but not the Sienna.


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

tiiger said:


> Reliability is worth something, though! (And the EV did strand us last weekend when the water pump died.)


I have been fairly successful at mitigating this issue by preventatively replacing things. Some would argue against it by saying, "if it aint broke don't fix it," but given how cheap some of the stuff is, to me it's worth the added piece of mind. Examples of things I replaced before they failed include water pump, heater core, heater blower motor, ignition switch, coil, hall sensor, fuel injectors, spark plug wires, starter, ECTS, nearly all of the water hoses, and all of the plastic coolant flanges. I did the automatic to manual conversion as well, for the same reason (didn't want the $4k liability and wanted all the benefits that a manual provides). 

So far the only time it's come close to stranding me was when the steering rack blew its seal. Luckily I was at a gas station 1 mile from home. 

It is getting increasingly difficult to obtain some parts though, and that has me worried. I backed into a tree branch that was sticking out into the road (night time and I didn't see it) and it shattered the back window. I had to call like 10 auto glass shops before finding one that could obtain the part. Lots of other stuff is obsolete like exhaust manifolds etc. Have to get creative on some of it (like finding things on Germany eBay or whatever, though many of the German eBayers won't ship outside of the EU). 

I still plan on keeping it forever. For the $1k I paid for it, it has been the biggest bang for the buck of any vehicle I've ever owned. I'd even dare to say it's the most fun to drive of my current vehicles but a strange (yet hardly noticeable) surging issue under acceleration puts a bit of a damper on that.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

The EV is an easy vehicle to love, no question. The six months prior to selling mine, I spent over $3,000 in repairs, mostly parts (labor complements of the owner). The guy that bought it had to put another $3,000 into a timing chain replacement and rear AC. Our last long road trip left us stranded 3/4 of the way home with friends that had to be to work. It was a pain. We towed it home and put it back on the road. This was our water pump blow-out. The pulley also shattered into many pieces. It was a winter trip so the repair in the parking lot in Eastern Washington was cold, very cold. It broke down again just on the other side of the Cascades and we spent the night in a Safeway parking lot to get parts the next morning. The Toyota is merely an appliance, a stop-gap measure to safely strike out on the road. We plan to drive from Washington State to Florida next month. The Toyota will do fine, for now. If VW does not start giving indications of a real replacement in the next few years, I may hunt down an EV hulk and do a complete restoration using a TDI and manual tranny. This is just not possible right now...


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## USAFVR6 (Mar 26, 2002)

We need a van soon. I had a Sprinter, sucker was too big. We tried a Sienna, just can't love it. Don't want anything Dodge/Chevy/Ford.

Any updates on next-gen EuroVan's, or maybe a Mercedes V-class?


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

It sounds like Mercedes-Benz is bringing the V-Class to North America as the Metris:

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/11/04/mercedes-metris-sema-concepts-debut/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/11/mercedes-benz-metris-north-americas-v-class/

Dear Mercedes-Benz, please offer it w/a diesel engine and an interior configuration similar to my beloved EuroVan MV. Something that I can easily eat/sleep in, yet is still practical for daily driver use.

UPDATE: A friend of mine is at SEMA and just posted this: http://instagram.com/p/vACPRkPX1l/ 

And for those of you on Twitter, check the hashtag #luxuryvan (BTW, I'm @greenlaker if anyone cares)


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*SEMA*

http://www.worldcarfans.com/114110483784/mercedes-benz-previews-metris-midsize-van-with-four-concepts

*Mercedes-Benz previews Metris midsize van with four concepts at SEMA*

_Basically a US-spec Vito_

Mercedes-Benz has introduced four concepts today at SEMA which serve as a preview for the forthcoming US-spec Vito.

It was the end of July when Mercedes-Benz introduced the Euro-spec Vito and now the Daimler-owned company is previewing the American version which will be commercialized with the "Metris" moniker in United States and Canada starting the fall of 2015. The midsize van is debuting at SEMA taking the shape of four concepts: RENNtech: Party/DJ Van, HQ Custom Design: Luxury Van, RADO: Fire Chief Concept Truck, Garmin: Mobile Golf Pro Shop.

RENNtech's customized Metris is a mobile DJ van with a clamshell-style roof while HQ Custom Design's luxury van promises to offer "the best in audio/visual that is surrounded by the finest craftsmanship and attention to detail." As for the RADO concept, it’s described as being a "rolling communications center" capable of transporting a fire chief to any location. Lastly, the golf-oriented Garmin concept is equipped with a high-tech golf simulator as well as an infotainment system specially developed for both personal and commercial uses.

Source: Mercedes-Benz









_Mercedes-Benz Metris concept RENNtech: Party/DJ Van _









_Mercedes-Benz Metris RADO: Fire Chief Concept Truck_ 









_Mercedes-Benz Metris Garmin: Mobile Golf Pro Shop _









_Mercedes-Benz Metris HQ Custom Design: Luxury Van _​


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## USAFVR6 (Mar 26, 2002)

Interesting. 

I wonder what a Metris will cost..?


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

We have put 2,500 miles on the Sienna now and have not fallen in love with it. Don't get me wrong, it is a nice vehicle, in some ways. It rides smooth and has OK power. The seating configurations are pretty good for a minivan. I would not consider the interior high quality. A lot of hard plastic. Not just a little, a lot. I think we might be able to hang on to it for a while longer as it works good for utility and people hauling. As soon as a better option comes out though, its gone for sure. So how about bringing over a nice option from the VW fleet? An MB like the ones above look nice too. I have never been a big MB fan but it would for sure have a nicer interior than the Toyota, even the Limited version. opcorn:


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## GoStumpy (Jul 14, 2000)

gti_matt said:


> The 5-cyl motor is generally more reliable and yeah the 5-speed too but these vans are OLD now...nearly two decades. If you don't get a properly maintained one, it will nickel and dime you. These are $800/year vehicles in terms of repairs and maintenance when they get this old.


I don't mind $70/month in repairs


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

$70/month would have been awesome. I don't think a single month went by with spending less than that but many went by with over $1,000 repairs and not always at the most convenient of times.

In looking more at the MB Metris, it appears to be very close to the volume of the EV. They indicate a fall 2015 release?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

I guess I should say that once up to snuff and you're all caught up, they are maybe $800-1000/year in repairs on an ongoing basis. But just getting caught up on maintenance and parts that need to be replaced that a P.O. may have neglected can be very daunting.


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## chudzikb (Sep 21, 2000)

gti_matt said:


> I guess I should say that once up to snuff and you're all caught up, they are maybe $800-1000/year in repairs on an ongoing basis. But just getting caught up on maintenance and parts that need to be replaced that a P.O. may have neglected can be very daunting.


And expensive! Got my 02 up to snuff, just one more thing, worn out seat cushion on the drivers side, once perfect, sell, because no more challenges?


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## snowbird88 (Dec 28, 2014)

*Consider other garageable variants?*

Hi happy holidays everyone. I am new to the forum but owed a VW Westfalia before. I liked it but when I moved to a condom, they don't allow parking outside garage, and our garage was 6'8" tall so I had no where to park the westy but sell. I did spend quite some bucks to maintain it. Now our garage is 7' tall that I can park a garageable RV inside it. So I face same question, to get newer EV or other variants that are close to EV. I will only consider garageable one. But there are some out there, like GTRV etc, will people here consider those?
I notice many posters have love hate relationship with EV, just wonder what is cut off age or mileage if any it becomes a headache ?
By the way, in Craigslist there are a couple of newer EV that have 50 to 80 K miles, but their price is close to $50K, basically a dollar per mile.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Anyone been up close and personal with a passenger version of the new Ford Transit? Not the smaller than mini-van version but the E-Series replacement. I see it comes in many sizes. I am curious if this thing is just like the full size Nissan NV3500.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

snowbird88 said:


> I notice many posters have love hate relationship with EV, just wonder what is cut off age or mileage if any it becomes a headache ?


They are probably all at an age or mileage now that they're a headache. The last ones sold here were 2003 models so the newest ones are 12 years old now and probably most are well over 100K miles.

I would say that the 1997-2003 models (VR6s and autos) are maybe a tad less nickel-and-dimey than the now-very-old 1993-1995 5-bangers, but the VR6s and autos can be ticking time bombs for fewer but HUGE repair$ (timing chain/guide issues and auto trans issues). The older 5-bangers are probably more nickel-and-dimey due to sheer age, but have fewer huge issues (although autos can still be iffy...stick with a 5-speed on these if possible).


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2014)

*Again, what else for the money*

My EVC is a 99, 130K on the odometer. I use it strictly for camping, so new miles are limited. Excellent condition, but certainly I expect to spend *about* $1K per year keeping it in excellent condition. What else can I drive for $1K/year that allows me, my wife, and our 8 year old to easily camp in relative comfort? If this were a daily driver, then sure....there's lots of choices. But there is still nothing like an EVC on the market, and of there were I'd be looking at $50K purchase price. I love this van. Would I love it more if it had the durability of a 2014 Sienna/Odyssey? Of course. But that is not a choice that is available to me.


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## snowbird88 (Dec 28, 2014)

*No replacement so far for EVC at the moment?*

Maybe.

After considering all factors and looking for over a couple of years, I still find it very resistive to consider other substitute for a nicer EVC.
So I will consider to have preventive repair like some other poster mentioned before and gti said here, i.e. solve timing chain/guide issues and auto trans issues before they appear. I dont know what else important issues other than regular maintenance. Can gti give us some estimates for cost of timing chain/guide issues and auto trans issues?




gti_matt said:


> They are probably all at an age or mileage now that they're a headache. The last ones sold here were 2003 models so the newest ones are 12 years old now and probably most are well over 100K miles.
> 
> I would say that the 1997-2003 models (VR6s and autos) are maybe a tad less nickel-and-dimey than the now-very-old 1993-1995 5-bangers, but the VR6s and autos can be ticking time bombs for fewer but HUGE repair$ (timing chain/guide issues and auto trans issues). The older 5-bangers are probably more nickel-and-dimey due to sheer age, but have fewer huge issues (although autos can still be iffy...stick with a 5-speed on these if possible).



Agree completely. What else can we drive for $1K/year extra keeping up that allows for a couple of people to easily camp in relative comfort? I dont foresee anything like disintegrating, does it?



[email protected] said:


> My EVC is a 99, 130K on the odometer. I use it strictly for camping, so new miles are limited. Excellent condition, but certainly I expect to spend *about* $1K per year keeping it in excellent condition. What else can I drive for $1K/year that allows me, my wife, and our 8 year old to easily camp in relative comfort? If this were a daily driver, then sure....there's lots of choices. But there is still nothing like an EVC on the market, and of there were I'd be looking at $50K purchase price. I love this van. Would I love it more if it had the durability of a 2014 Sienna/Odyssey? Of course. But that is not a choice that is available to me.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Unfortunately, I am not in a spot right now to have a trip only EVMV, let alone an EVC. In decent shape these still command a good price, and for good reason. I needed a daily driver to double as the occasional overnighter rig. As soon as my circumstances change, and nothing better has come to market, I will embark on a resto-mod of an EV. I have been doing some TDI swaps for clients and am very ready to build one for myself...:beer:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I just read an article on the Motor Trend website that I found encouraging. Below is the paragraph that to me, represents the nearest EV replacement planned...

The Ford Transit Connect isn't the only Euro van making waves in the minivan market. Mercedes-Benz recently announced that its Vito van -- a familiar site in London as a black cab -- is making its way to the United States. Dubbed the Mercedes-Benz Metris for the American market, the Metris will be available in both cargo and passenger versions. The Metris is slated to be a tweener in size, meaning it will be larger than a Transit Connect but smaller than full-size commercial vans. A diesel powertrain and Mercedes' full array of driver assistance and active safety tech can be expected when the Metris goes on sale here this fall.

If it really is sized as it says in this article, it should be just about EV sized, or just a smidge bigger than todays minivans. Keeping an eye on the progress for these plans for sure...


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I was a little disappointed in the recent offerings by VW at NAIAS. A pretty benign demonstration of anything beyond five passengers. Meanwhile, MB seems to be moving forward with their not-so-mini van...


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150120/OEM04/150119737?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

At least they're "thinking" about it....


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

FWIW, I took another bare Eurovan shell to the recycler today. Just thought it was another good size comparison shot of a Sprinter (the older smaller one) compared to a Eurovan.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

marshy said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/20150120/OEM04/150119737?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
> 
> At least they're "thinking" about it....


Unfortunately no mention of the T6... just Crafter and Caddy.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

J_Westy2 said:


> Unfortunately no mention of the T6... just Crafter and Caddy.


Lets apply recent VW logic here. If VW's marketing dept. finds out that people in the US want the crafter or caddy more than the transporter, then its is highly likely that they'll bring the transporter here, likely out of spite. :laugh::banghead:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

The T6 is perfect. Whatever psychology it takes to convince them of this, I am game. Blunt, reverse, antagonistic...I can play any of these. This thread has tried just about all of them...:banghead:


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*Mercedes Metris*

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/most-affordable-mercedes-benz-will-be-new-2016-metris-van

Not surprising I suppose, but:

No luxury model - boo
4-cylinder gas - double boo
7 speed auto - triple boo



================

New 2016 Metris van will be the most affordable US Mercedes-Benz March 4, 2015





Stuttgart will bring cargo and passenger versions of the Vito to the US starting this fall
We remember a time when the smallest Mercedes-Benz model was the brand's most affordable in the U.S. -- that would have been the 2002 C230 Kompressor SportCoupe hatch with a starting price of just over $25,000. But times have certainly changed and the most affordable vehicle in Mercedes-Benz's stateside lineup starting this fall will be one of the largest: the Metris van set to start at $29,945.

Sold as the Vito in other markets, the Metris is a midsize van that will be positioned below the slightly roomier if not more upscale Sprinter, which has been on sale in the U.S. under various badges for a little over a decade now. Slated to be offered in Cargo and Passenger configurations, the Metris will be powered by four-cylinder gasoline engine producing 208 hp and 258 lb-ft of torque connected to a seven-speed automatic transmission. 



Mercedes-Benz has positioned the Metris to be just larger than small commercial vans such as the Chevrolet City Express, but smaller than the full-size vans like the Ford Transit. The closest vehicle in terms of simple length is the Ram C/V Tradesman which measures 202.8 inches to the Metris' 202.4, though the Mercedes-Benz vehicle will offer 29 percent more interior space and will be carry over 700 pounds more. It's certainly an interesting niche to carve out when entering the suddenly modern commercial van market in the U.S., with Stuttgart also hoping to get a slice of the school run market (with a side helping of Eurocrat security vehicle chic) with the passenger version set to start at $33,495.


We are pleased to debut the Mercedes-Benz Metris at NTEA, which is a major step in launching our midsize commercial van in the U.S. market in October 2015,” said Bernie Glaser, vice president and managing director of Daimler Vans USA, LLC. “It is only logical that we adopt the global approach and also expand our successful vans business in the USA. Our SEMA ‘Mission: Metris’ presence with four distinctive van concepts was an effective way for us to hit the ground running to announce the nameplate ‘Mercedes-Benz Metris’ and to show off its unmatched versatility, size, and safety." 



Mercedes-Benz also took the opportunity to announce that the luxury V-class van will not be making it to the U.S., the company having judged that the passenger versions of the Metris and the Sprinter will satisfy all the demand for vans with the three-pointed star badge.


The Metris will go on sale this October and will be available through the a network of over 200 Mercedes-Benz van dealers, alongside the Sprinter.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

On one hand, i'm amazed they got a van here for under $30K.

It's a bummer though that they are going largely for commercial customers and not so much for consumers.:thumbdown: But then again, people pay $50K for luxo SUVs in the US but not for luxo vans (even though vans really are more practical, space-efficient, accessible, etc.).


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> On one hand, i'm amazed they got a van here for under $30K.
> 
> But then again, people pay $50K for luxo SUVs in the US


Let's be realistic here. Real Luxury SUVs coat far more than $50k

Sure there are cheap SUVs with leather and other options, but that some doesn't put them in the luxury end of the market.


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## Founderct (Feb 11, 2011)

*Metris*

So much for the "Chicken Tax" excuse that we've been told as the reason why VW can't make a profit with a van state side. 

MB has also announced that they will invest $500 million to build a new plant to assemble it's next Sprinter and Metris. 

"As it originally did with the Sprinter, Mercedes will ship partially assembled Metris vans from Europe to Charleston for final assembly. But Mornhingweg said it is possible that if demand grows large enough, the new South Carolina facility could be expanded to build the smaller van from the ground up, as well".

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2015/03/mercedes-benz-planning-500-mil-us-van-plant/

VW needs to purge their marketing department because they are not riding this wave of vans from MB, Ford, Fiat and Nissan. 

It'll be interesting to see how many Metris passenger van they'll sell with rear wheel drive.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Chicken tax + exchange rate = massive incentive to build USA based manufacturing facility!

(Even though the exchange rate is low right now, it's still a discount to spend Euros in the USA)

Add in the savings of the entire import and transportation costs and I'd bet MB saves 40-50% per van!!!!






Founderct said:


> So much for the "Chicken Tax" excuse that we've been told as the reason why VW can't make a profit with a van state side.
> 
> MB has also announced that they will invest $500 million to build a new plant to assemble it's next Sprinter and Metris.
> 
> ...


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I could not be happier to see this actually happening. So VW is playing it safe, or being overly cautious with their vans, by MB making a go of it, there is more of a chance that VW will follow suit. I am not holding my breath though. I am eager to see these on the ground here. If it looks like a good enough option, I am ditching the Sienna for a metris. The Toyota is OK but I am not attached to it in any way shape or form. It is merely the best option available right now, in my opinion. Until VW finds their way, I am on to another source. I must say I am losing interest in the direction their brand face is headed. The massive horizontal bars that dominate the entire front end is not doing it for me at all. I love my 2015 GTI, at least until the manual R is available anyway. For the main family and utility vehicle, VW is out...


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

more news emerges...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ns-and-pickups-to-broaden-u-s-customer-appeal


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

marshy said:


> more news emerges...
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ns-and-pickups-to-broaden-u-s-customer-appeal




This teaser image of the T6 was released today:










I was expecting a horizontal taillight like the Tristar concept -- which was very Vanagon like and inline with the current tail-light design.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Barn doors with no center glass support? I suspect that line down the back just as much tease as those wheels...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Looking at the T5 Allroad concept -- the T6 preview looks very similar. Is this just a facelift? Sorry if we've had this conversation before. :laugh:

Read somewhere else that the real next gen van is scheduled as a 2020/2019 model.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

The T6 is an engineering refresh of the T5...though there are claims that it is on the new MQB platform (I am not convinced). Body style is basically what you see at the back with the Tristar concept from last year giving the front.

Next complete refresh is due in 2020.


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

While those look cool and would grab attention...if anyone in the US was actually paying attention to VW..it just gets me more and more indifferent to VW. I hate to say it, but I don't even care anymore because VW is so irrelevant over here in this class. The last van was 2003...the cool concept Microbus was when?..2002? Um..by my calendar I think it says 2015. No truck, no real SUV (I'm not an SUV fan anyway, but others are), and no van.

We're living in the past over here and forced - if we have the motivation to keep them running - to either tear into old ones to keep them going (Cole and other talented souls), or deal with specialty VW shops or the always-pleasant dealer experience. 

I'm like many of you on this thread...I keep looking for other options. How pathetic is that? We're on a VW forum talking about non-VW van solutions. Great job VWofA - you've done nothing in this segment.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> While those look cool and would grab attention...if anyone in the US was actually paying attention to VW..it just gets me more and more indifferent to VW. I hate to say it, but I don't even care anymore because VW is so irrelevant over here in this class. The last van was 2003...the cool concept Microbus was when?..2002? Um..by my calendar I think it says 2015. No truck, no real SUV (I'm not an SUV fan anyway, but others are), and no van.
> 
> We're living in the past over here and forced - if we have the motivation to keep them running - to either tear into old ones to keep them going (Cole and other talented souls), or deal with specialty VW shops or the always-pleasant dealer experience.
> 
> I'm like many of you on this thread...I keep looking for other options. How pathetic is that? We're on a VW forum talking about non-VW van solutions. Great job VWofA - you've done nothing in this segment.


Actually I'm not looking at any other option -- but I am interested to see what may come in the future. Sometimes, the suggestions in this thread actually are more reassuring that a Eurovan and it's maintenance headaches are actually a decent and sound choice. Just about any import mini-van with a blown automatic transmission will cost you several thousands at a dealership.

I looked for a long time and nothing out there fits the bill as nicely as the Eurovan. Not one mini-van does the job that weekender interior does. I looked a lot of other options -- new and used - and I chose the Eurovan. I've owned plenty of VW's over the years -- and I am very happy with the fit, finish and the support you can find in enthusiast community that keeps these vehicles on the road. The Eurovan/T4 has that going for it -- an upside of owning VW. 

There is also a slew of people who are Mk3 an mk4 owners who are wowed and excited that Eurovan has a VR6 -- a venerable engine with a lot of knowledge and support. That generation of car owner is not as afraid of the Eurovan's engine bay the way some Vanagon owners seem to be (on the Samba). 

I sat on the sidelines for years -- Vanagons too old to let my wife drive, and wasted time waiting for the Microbus concept to become reality. All those years - I regret not just jumping in and getting our Eurovan even earlier.


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## max asst (Mar 19, 2001)

*also trying to peer into the future*

Our 2003 EV MV has 212,000 miles on the odometer and all this talk about replacing transmission has me on the hunt for an eventual replacement. Ours is fully optioned with sunroof and cd changer , outfitted with Mio GPS and and personalized with 10 inch LCD with Gamecube, Whistler radar detector and Blaupunkt stereo to match the dash at night. It has served us well. In no other van have we witnessed a quick and efficient way to haul four or five hockey players with accompanying bags with such ease. It's as plain as plain can be on the outside, but so readily recognizable. We can't go anywhere in our town without being recognized. The bed, table and space make it the ideal "go do your homework" in the van while waiting for someone to finish dance/hockey/soccer/violin lessons/practice or to go out of town halfway across the US. The kids have only known this VAN and are attached to this van. It is making 17.5mpg on the highway. I am at the point of performing oil changes every 5000 miles, yearly brake fluid and radiator fluid changes, and transmission fluid service every 50,000, then consumables like tires, brakes and wipers and fixing items like ball joints, exhaust, door handles as they fail. We have averaged a major (more than $1000) repair once a year in the past 4-5 years for things like AC compressor, sensor replacement, timing belt, etc. The next thing that is probably due is the water pump. My CD is stuck inside with an 80 minute club mix from 2003, so whenever it's on, it's like a timecapsule, listening to the Black eyed peas. 

What I'm trying to say is that the van has served us well and is still a predictable, reliable vehicle. I think I will keep maintaining it until transmission rears its ugly head. 

I too would like a van with as much space but better economy than the Eurovan.

Until reading about the MB Metris, I was leaning toward a short roof, short wheelbase Sprinter with intention to reverse the second row of seats to mimic our current van. I have a midsize MB rear-wheel drive sedan with turbo diesel which is comfortable, has a great amount of torque and awesome efficiency, but maintenance compared to VW makes me cringe. I love the comfort of MB, but I don't have a local mechanic who can take care of it, unlike the VW.

For these economics and logistics alone, Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey make more financial sense, and treat it as a commodity to be replaced in 11 years.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I am back to being independent or semi-retired as I like to put it. This is typical for anyone that has chosen to work in the maritime industries. What this means is I am again in full control of my schedule and will have time to pursue building an MV. 

What I am debating right now is starting with a retired EV-MV or Weekender or actually waiting until the MB Metris is released this fall. I am seriously considering building a modular interior that would give the option of what equipment you want to bring along. The van could be used with just the table and more seats like the EV-MV or add a refrigerator, sink, stove etc. depending on how long you wanted to be away from home. A pop-top would be installed, no question. The advantage to starting with a donor EV would be easier to justify a TDI swap. Starting with a $30k MB with a new engine would not make much sense to swap. It does not look like MB will be offering a diesel option. 

I am just wrapping up a custom yacht tender that I have built a custom TDI for and after doing this, a vehicle engine swap would be a piece of cake. With the boat engine, there are extensive modifications necessary to make it reliable and robust in the marine environment, including changing everything over to being water cooled. Looking at the various salvage vehicle auction sites, a wrecked TDI vehicle can be bought for anywhere from $5-15k, depending on the miles and size of engine. The 1.9L 150PD ARL TDI I used to power the custom tender puts out 200HP at the flywheel. A 2.5L or 3.0L TDI would be even better though fitting it into the EV might be a trick. The thought of starting with a new vehicle though sounds pretty nice. I think back to all the interior parts and pieces I had replaced in my old EV-MV and I cringe. It seemed like every month something was failing or needing totally replaced (door handles-latches-rollers, climate control parts, sunroof mechanism, etc.). At this point, I think I will wait until the Metris is on the ground and I can go sit, drive and lay back in one just to see how the package is put together. The EV will be a tough package to beat but who knows, maybe MB has done it...

Now that there has been some shakeup inside the VW upper management, maybe we will start to see some changes in what is offered here in the US? Of course it could go the other direction too and become worst than it is now.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

With the upcoming arrival of the Metris, we are starting to see more articles of reviews and drives. Most of these indicate it to be much more EV-like than anything else we have seen yet. I like the fact that it is a commercial van and not a luxury minivan. It sounds like it would make a very good platform for a Weekender or Camper conversion. Being RWD can be a bonus too, in some cases. I will be keeping a close eye on dealer arrival dates for sure. Maybe I will be able to finally get rid of the Sienna! I continue to be disappointed with the utility quality of the Toyota. It is very light duty indeed, obviously not intended to be used for much more than moving people and some luggage around. I used the old EV for hauling all kinds of stuff like sheetrock, plywood, granite countertops, marble floor tile boxes, carpet rolls etc. and used it to tow fairly heavy trailers of materials and equipment. The Toyota can handle some of this but shows the wear very very quickly. I am please with its reliability though. It has been nice to not have to worry about breakdowns on long road trips etc. Maybe, just maybe, the Metris will give us as close of an MV replacement as we will see. At least until VW wakes up to this market segment.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-mercedes-benz-metris-first-drive-review

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/09/2016-mercedes-benz-metris-first-drive-review/


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## nasd90 (Jan 10, 2015)

max asst said:


> Our 2003 EV MV has 212,000 miles on the odometer and all this talk about replacing transmission has me on the hunt for an eventual replacement.


KEEP IT. Screw all those other wannabe's, regardless of the year the T4 is awesome. The others are just vans and minivans.

I just replaced the Transmission in my 2002 EuroVan GLS from German Transaxle in Bend, Oregon and though pricey, they were the only one's who had some type of warranty, a 4yr 48k compared to everyone elses 1yr, 12k... The dealer wanted $8500 out the door. I paid, $4k for the transmission, another $1k because something was shot in my original transmission ($3500 core charge plus $500 shipping both ways... another $4k for Transmission) ahem... Then I had to pay my private VW shop to install it, another $1500 or so. The owner has a Rialta and has done a few transmissions and he said when his goes, there's no other one he'd choose. It comes with a transmission intercooler so I doubt a regular dealer would do it, but find someone who knows these things and that you trust. 

I'm going to have this a while, just bought it within the past year... and I gotta say the transmission is tits.

Sorry to go off topic a little, but if you have the cash, keep this running. Unless you can get a T5 in the country, the others are junk. Absolute junk with no soul.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

More News...

Could the Chicken Tax be gone by the year's end?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150629/OEM/306299968/after-chicken-tax-a-flood-of-foreign-trucks

One can only hope...


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

I always thought it was weird that people say the T5 is classified as a light truck. If you look at the definition:




> Federal regulations define a light-duty truck to be any motor vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating (curb weight plus payload) of no more than 8,500 pounds (3,855.5 kg) which is “(1) Designed primarily for purposes of transportation of property or is a derivation of such a vehicle, or (2) Designed primarily for transportation of persons and has a capacity of more than 12 persons, or (3) Available with special features enabling off-street or off-highway operation and use.”



It looks like the T5 doesn't fit the bill. I wonder if it just didn't get imported due to waning sales of the T4 and people assumed it was because of the "chicken tax".


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Cargo versions do. Look at a van like the Transit Connect. Ford shipped it here with seats and windows as a passenger version and then at port the windows were removed and panels added and the seats removed and destroyed, all to get around the "chicken tax".

If VW shipped the T5 here that way, it would be fine as well, but VW didn't make a business case for it (volume vs. cost).


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

xinnar said:


> I always thought it was weird that people say the T5 is classified as a light truck. If you look at the definition:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a standard T5 with out passenger seats fits that definition perfectly.


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

Without passenger seats, sure, but the US market who loves the VWs wants to buy them in passenger and camper versions, which means it'd wouldn't fall under the "chicken tax".

Unless I'm reading this all wrong. My point is that there's a chance that the "chicken tax" isn't why the T5 never made it here.



Xtremjeepn said:


> Looks like a standard T5 with out passenger seats fits that definition perfectly.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

xinnar said:


> Without passenger seats, sure, but the US market who loves the VWs wants to buy them in passenger and camper versions, which means it'd wouldn't fall under the "chicken tax".
> 
> Unless I'm reading this all wrong. My point is that there's a chance that the "chicken tax" isn't why the T5 never made it here.


The US market proved that they do NOT "love the VW" by only purchasing something like 9K Eurovans. Compare that to the 1 million or so domestically produced mini-vans of the same time frame and the Eurovan was an epic failure. (Or just compare to the Jetta that sold about 400K over the same time frame as the Eurovan)

In order for the T5 to be a financially feasible import to the USA VW would probably need to sell their entire line up of T5 vans/trucks. The T5 vans had engine and drivetrain components that were not very closely related to other domestic cars. So VW would need to pass those engines through the EPA certification process and have the chassis pass the NHTSA safety tests. All of which cost big dollars. 

Part of that financial equation probably requires stocking parts for these vans so the dealer network can service them. Doesn't make financial sense to stock a pile of parts for only one iteration of the van. Makes much more sense if you have a whole fleet of cargo vans on the road too. Cargo vans that would be taxed an additional 25% to bring in. 

So looking at the low sales numbers, expense to certify, expense to stock parts, and tax on the rest of the fleet. It seems like a very expensive and risky venture.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

xinnar said:


> Without passenger seats, sure, but the US market who loves the VWs wants to buy them in passenger and camper versions, which means it'd wouldn't fall under the "chicken tax".
> 
> Unless I'm reading this all wrong. My point is that there's a chance that the "chicken tax" isn't why the T5 never made it here.


The chicken tax probably isn't THE ONLY reason, but it is a contributing factor and one of several strikes against bringing it here.

If a full range of T5/5.5/6/whatever vehicles can't be brought in and since VW opted to continue to make the van in fairly expensive Germany (rather than also in Mexico or the US for less expensive labor and taking advantage of any benefits that NAFTA might bring towards versions exported to the US and Canada), it gets hard to make a profitable business case for it.

Nevertheless, Ford and Mercedes and Chrysler/Fiat figured it out because they saw a market (or at least a niche but a worthwhile one) to get Transits, Transit Connects, and RAM vans here. It's a shame VW didn't think they needed to play in this market a dozen years ago when the first Sprinters were arriving or VW could also be here, and perhaps at a lower price point than Benz that would have VW playing here in lieu of Ford and Chrysler.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Matt, 

Remember that Diamler(Mercedes) owned Dodge/Chrysler at the time the Sprinter (MUCH larger van) came to the USA. It was "re-assembled" here at Dodge faculties to get around the tax. The Transit-Connect (much smaller van) was also "re-assembled" here at a Ford facility to get around the tax. 

I don't think VW has any extra plants laying around the USA to "assemble" vehicles in.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Remember that Diamler(Mercedes) owned Dodge/Chrysler at the time the Sprinter (MUCH larger van) came to the USA. It was "re-assembled" here at Dodge faculties to get around the tax.


The cargo versions were shipped in CKD format and assembled here to get around the tax. Passenger versions were not CKD but were imported fully assembled.



Xtremjeepn said:


> The Transit-Connect (much smaller van) was also "re-assembled" here at a Ford facility to get around the tax.


No, they are not re-assembled! They are fully assembled as passenger vans and then they are cargo-ized by the shipper (not Ford) immediately when they arrive at port.

See http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125357990638429655

_"The vans leave Turkey on cargo ships owned by Wallenius Wilhelmsen Logistics. Once they arrive in Baltimore, they are driven into a warehouse, where 65 workers from the shipping company's WWL Vehicle Services Americas Inc. convert them into commercial vehicles amid the blare of rock music and the whirring of industrial fans."_



Xtremjeepn said:


> I don't think VW has any extra plants laying around the USA to "assemble" vehicles in.


VW could have gone the Ford route in theory without building a full plant to do it. But the Ford TC came from Turkey at the time which is likely much cheaper than building in Germany (I'm sure we don't doubt that, do we?). So trashing some seats and windows and gluing in panels in place of the windows is no big deal and the less expensive Turkish labor to make the vans is probably easier to stomach when you can drop the tax from 25% to 2.5%. However, a German-built T5 probably costs more to make, even in a cheap-ish passenger format, and then you have to trash the passenger bits in the same manner. It was probably easier for Ford to do this to a TC from Turkey but perhaps less of a business case for VW to do it to a T5 from Hannover.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Ford's approach was actually quite brilliant because the cargo-i-zation is more about removing parts than installing parts (except for the window panels) and could be done by a 3rd party fairly easily with the main thing being testing the panel inserts for watertightness after installation. Don't need a full assembly plant, don't need all that much training for removing parts so very few QC risks, and note that the article says this conversion only costs "hundreds of dollars" per van (implying it's not more than $1K) yet the tax savings far exceeds that.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I'm not going to waste time requoting all that. 

You basically just restated what my point was. You are stuck on semantics of using the term "re-assembled".

If you have to deconstruct a van and put it back together as a cargo then it's ""re-assembled". Same with the Sprinter that had to come in as parts and be put back together. 

All to the point that VW didn't think that was worth the plant and effort for a lack luster USA market.


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Please...please...this is supposed to be a happy occasionnn. Let's not bicker..and argue...about who kil*ed who...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34RlJ0L0xE

:beer:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

No, there's a significant difference between a CKD kit that is assembled in a dedicated plant (and building one if one does not exist) versus paying a third party contractor in a third party warehouse to unbolt and remove some parts and installing two window panels. It's not getting hung up on semantics. The two processes are very different and affect the decisions towards creating or rejecting a business model for a product.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> No, there's a significant difference between a CKD kit that is assembled in a dedicated plant (and building one if one does not exist) versus paying a third party contractor in a third party warehouse to unbolt and remove some parts and installing two window panels. It's not getting hung up on semantics. The two processes are very different and affect the decisions towards creating or rejecting a business model for a product.



Yep, still missing the forest through the trees!:screwy:

I over simplified those details because they were/are not significant to the larger point. Which you seem to miss entirely, probably because you jumped on an opportunity to nit-pick and create arguments around the insignificant points.


I could try to simplify the point further if you like?(which ironically was in total agreement with your statements, but you seemed to take that as an argument instead)


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

The T5 did not make it. Unless the T6 was designed with the idea of importing it here to the US, it is doubtful it will make it either. The Transporter has been exported to so many other countries through the years. The USA is a tough nut to crack for sure. Now that the competition has a good jump on the new Euro style van commercial/passenger van market, it makes it more difficult for VW to justify the expense. I am sure someone some where inside the VW halls has all the answers, at least in their own mind. VW has had some difficulties with their own people getting in the way with their own personal political/financial agendas. Similar to what GM went through and continues to struggle with. Let's just hope VW remembers it is about the customers, not their own retirement plans. If you build what the world wants, at a price that they will pay, your retirement will be fine. Get greedy and the results become unpredictable...

Anyway, the Metris arrival is getting close. Although I would prefer a T6, it does not look good for the next several years. Nothing else appears to be as close a match to the EV. I am hopeful for this one. So far, all the other alternatives have been a let down, mostly in size. They have been too big or too little. The Metris is about the same length as a typical mini-van but adds a good 5-7 inches in height. This is significant and what really makes a van a good candidate for a camper...:beer:


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Anyone seen a Metris at a dealer? They should be rolling in soon.


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## Founderct (Feb 11, 2011)

*EV Replacement*

It looks like we are getting closer to a factory replacement for the EVWK even though it's not a VW.

MB is planning on importing the MP to Canada and there was a Metris camper at a MB van camp in Colorado for auto journalists.

http://blog.performancemercedes.ca/mercedes-benz-marco-polo/


http://www.metrisforum.com/forum/19...ercedes-considering-us-marco-polo-metris.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iJ4gANW_6c


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Thanks Founderct for the links to some videos and the Metris forum. I am getting more excited that he Metris will in fact be as close a T4/T5/T6 replacement we will get. I really like the idea it is based on a commercial vehicle. I loved the commercial veins of the T4. It is also just around the corner on arrival. I think that more people will shop this van for personal use than MB anticipates. It will do well for them. It is a segment that currently has no options without going up or down in size.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I am curious if anyone has been able to find a Metris passenger van at a Sprinter dealer? It appears these are available but seem to be very limited on the lot. If anyone has seen one and better yet, driven one, please spill. Has the EV replacement arrived?


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

Saw a passenger version out front in a prominent position at the Santa Rosa, CA M-B dealer yesterday. I had planned on motoring on up there in my '92 400E today to take a look at it, and possibly drive it, but I didn't have the time to do so.

So they are arriving at dealers.


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## Farther (Aug 4, 2015)

It's may have been said before in this thread but I think a short wheelbase, low roof 4x4 Sprinter would be just what I need for a EuroVan replacement.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Farther said:


> It's may have been said before in this thread but I think a short wheelbase, low roof 4x4 Sprinter would be just what I need for a EuroVan replacement.


They really are not comparable in size at all. Below is a quote from early in this thread that shows a short wheel base low roof Sprinter next to a Eurovan. This isn't even the 4x4 which sits even taller. 

Also, the low roof doesn't gain anything. Its not short enough to fit in a standard home or public parking garage, so you may as well have the room to stand up inside with the high roof. The height difference is only a few inches, and not anywhere that makes a difference but inside. 





dapolrbear said:


> Sprinter will be the replacement for me. Check out the size difference compared to my buddy's 144 lowtop with a Sportsmobile poptop.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7281577-mercedes-metris


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I have been seeing rumblings that a Bulli-Microbus concept is to be revealed this week at CES? Although not appearing to be anything more than a 5 passenger vehicle, I am interested to see what the latest tease will be about. VW has cried wolf on a retro-type bus release now way too many times. I hold no confidence yet, but hope to live to see one someday. I liked my originals very much, the oldest being a 1954 Combi.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

From what I'm reading, it'll be all electric. So, that will be something all old Bus owners will be ready to buy. It'll be the best Bus yet since you can now live completely off the grid. Go camping and set up a solar panel to recharge it. After a month, go to the next campsite. No more dirty diesels, underpowered oil leaking aircooled motors, underpowered headgasket leaking watercooled boxers or transmission failing Eurovans. We will finally, all have the perfect Bus. Complement that with the Amarok, you got the perfect vehicle solution.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

There is so much potential to bring a vehicle to market that follows the charm, utility, and economics the original Bus represented. Future generations were good too, but none captured so many peoples inner bond as strongly as the original split. The fond memories of those that owned these vehicles are still very strong and the generation is still of a vehicle buying age. Wait too much longer and this generation will pass out of value to VW. The time is now to not just bring back a microbus, but do it proper. Not a rushed or forced concept just to bring sales numbers up a few notches but a truly charming, utility laden and economic option that will bring in solid customers and help console many who are a little hurt right now. VW could use this opportunity wisely, or blow it completely. Time will tell...

I still want the T6 too!


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## Farther (Aug 4, 2015)

pan-d-man said:


> There is so much potential to bring a vehicle to market....


 Wow, you could write marketing/promotional stuff.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

The time has already passed for another Bus here in the US. There are too many other options out there. It would be a niche vehicle that would result in dismal sales. VW could barely sell the EV in it's last few years. Yes, I'd love a T6 but I'm realistic, it would be a sales flop. It might do well the first year but it's novelty would soon wear off. Same thing goes for the Fiat 500. I bought an Abarth because I feel that even though everyone I meet loves it, it's going to be pulled from the product line pretty soon since the sales are in the toilet for them and it's just getting worse.

Only way I could see VW making it work would be to do like in other countries, open a separate commercial vehicles division and sell certain models through specific dealers. Selling them through regular dealers just doesn't work because they are too hard to sell as opposed to the other vehicles in the VW lineup. If you want to buy a T6 California TDI, no problem. The dealer can then order it for you. It's going to cost a ton but at least the dealer doesn't have to floorpan the thing for a year and then sell it at a loss. As for the other commercial vehicles that actually sell in fleet numbers, that keeps the dealer going strong. 

Do this for the US: http://www.volkswagen-commercial-vehicles.com/en.html


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

*This looks interesting...*

I know many of you are not fond of the Bulli concept (if, in fact that's what VW reveals), but this electric drivetrain could be cool...
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/report-vw-microbus-return-electric-powertrain
opcorn:


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Agreed - the powertrain looks cool. However, the Bulli is not a van in any way and has nothing to do with this forum (its too small). I like this:

http://jalopnik.com/theres-really-only-one-thing-volkswagen-can-build-to-wi-1741091134


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

Or, to reference a more current and just as poorly written Jalopnik article: http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/heres-what-volkswagens-new-electric-microbus-could-look-1747977611


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Jjvincent, I agree with your sentiments regarding a new transporter or commercial style van like the current T6. There is a market for them here but it is highly competitive with the current level of offerings. It would be a difficult battle to break into this market segment. The vehicles would have to be dynamic enough from a utility and pricing standpoint. I will say I am surprised the Promaster has done as well as it has. I think if a Microbus type vehicle would make it, the strongest market segment would be in the minivan and minicube (Soul, Xb, Cube) category. The country is eating up the crossovers right now as utility and economy are high on the need list. A properly sized 5-7 passenger vehicle with a low floor (lower than a crossover) with decent driving dynamics would do well. The same size as the original split-window would do nicely. Larger would be better but does not seem likely (T6 is perfect). I guess we will see. VW has an opportunity here that could play out well. Lets hope they do it proper.

I have had about every size vehicle imagined, each with its pros and cons. Although very cheaply made, the Nissan Cube was a great all around vehicle. It had decent handling (6 speed manual) and great size interior for the size of exterior. We called it the biggest little car. The EV was awesome. Loved my 84 Toyota van (huge rear sunroof was mint). Our current Sienna is OK but that's it. Its is too large to drive like a car but too small to serve as a van, the way we use it anyway. It is a compromise on both ends. I really loved my old Combi. I can't say it would have hauled 7 very well. There was something magical about it though. VW needs to put together a magical bus. This takes magical people though. Perhaps if they clean out the corporate culture the last leader created they can get back to producing people cars. If you build it they will come? Todays vehicle market is a tough one indeed. So many angles that have to be considered with a seemingly small chance of getting it just right and being a hit for more than just a couple years. A fickle customer that is running from here to there trying to satisfy all they want in one vehicle. Kind of sounds like me. So many cars, so little time...


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

jjvincent said:


> From what I'm reading, it'll be all electric.


This article claims gas/diesel too:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151221/OEM04/312219994/vw-microbus-to-return-as-an-ev










*Autoweek*
December 21, 2015 - 12:01 am ET

Volkswagen's battery-electric Microbus concept to be unveiled next month at International CES, the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas, will preview a production version due in 2017, according to British magazine Autocar.

VW has rolled out various Microbus concepts over the past 20 years. The latest was the electric Bulli concept at the 2011 Geneva auto show. Autocar says a production version of the CES vehicle will be built in Puebla, Mexico, starting in 2017 using battery technology from the Audi Q6 e-tron quattro and the Audi R8 e-tron. The EV will have a range of 250 to 310 miles on a full charge.

The Microbus is expected to feature familiar design cues from the original 1960s version with one departure: a slightly longer nose due to crash and pedestrian safety requirements.

The new Microbus will be shown as an EV, but the production version is expected to be offered with gasoline and diesel engines as well. The vehicle is also expected to be a platform for VW's latest connectivity and autonomous driving features -- hence its debut at CES.

Contact Automotive News


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Sounds like they are going to throw a few ideas on the wall and see what sticks. Could be EV, could be hybrid, could be gas, could be diesel, could be nothing at all. Funny thing is that VW in Mexico offers tons of different models across the board.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

The latest tease shows design queues that appear totally new. None of the surfaces look like anything from past concepts. It is difficult to tell for sure but it looks larger than earlier Bulli concepts. The anticipation of a well thought out model, with hopes of actual production, are pretty high. :laugh:


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

This is coming up on a year old but you can see why the T6 won't be coming.

http://michiganradio.org/post/why-vw-will-not-bring-back-van-us-least-right-now


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

I have heard these lines of reasoning many times. The thought that comes back in my mind is VW has brought several low volume vehicles to market, some for many years. The Eos has never sold well but it lasted a very long time. They did the Phantom a few times and brought us the beloved R several times. Each time these come to our shores, there is a reason. Each of these vehicles have a very different explanation for their existence and some actually fulfill. Some have not. What I think VW has underestimated is the value that bringing a nostalgic "bus" to market would prove to be more beneficial than many of their other experiments. Americans appreciate nostalgia and even a low volume version would have an impact on brand perception, much like the beetle has. There are manufacturers that would love to have anchor models like these in their past. They can have a great impact if done right. Look at Dodge, they thrive on it and it brings in buyers, even if their vehicles are not as reliable as others out there. If VW is going to roll the dice on some low volume vehicle with the hopes of a positive affect on market brand, don't let the "bus" generation disappear. Once we are gone, its over. Recapture it while the opportunity exists. This is what I hope they can do.:thumbup:


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

For anyone interested in the VW Keynote at CES tonight (8:30 pm PST), and this vaporware E-van... Livestream here: http://volkswagen.gomexlive.com/vw_live_pk/
opcorn:


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Here's some sales numbers from VW:

Some numbers:

VW US Sales:
2002: 424,946
2003: 389,518
2004: 256,111
2005: 224,195
2006: 235,140
2007: 230,572
2008: 223,128
2009: 214,454
2010: 256,830
2011: 324,402
2012: 438,113
2013: 407,704
2014: 366,970
2015: N/A

Eurovan (% of total sales):
2002: 6673 (1.5%)
2003: 4735 (1.2%)
2004: 209 (these were leftover 2003's still sitting on the lot)

Routan (% of total sales):
2009: 14,681 (6.8%)
2010: 15,961 (6.2%)
2011: 12,473 (3.8%)
2012: 10,483 (2.4%)
2013: 2,109 (2012 leftover)
2014: 1,103 (2012 leftover)

Eos (% of total sales):
2006: 3,394 (1.4% of total sales but these were 2007 models)
2007: 12,744 (5.5%)
2008: 12,837 (5.7%)
2009: 7,204 (3.3%)
2010: 6,690 (2.6%)
2011: 7,533 (2.3%)
2012: 6,214 (1.4%)
2013: 4,178 (1.0%)
2014: 3,411 (0.9%)
2015: N/A

Tiguan (% of total sales):
2008: 8,664 (3.8%)
2009: 13,903 (6.4%)
2010: 20,946 (8.1%)
2011: 25,990 (8.0%)
2012: 31,731 (7.2%)
2013: 30,002 (7.3%)
2014: 25,121 (6.8%)
2015: N/A

Tourag (% of total sales)
2003: 16,410 (4.2%)
2004: 27,706 (10.8%)
2005: 18,050 (8.0%)
2006: 10,163 (4.3%)
2007: 8,812 (3.8%)
2008: 6,755 (3.0%)
2009: 4,392 (2.0%)
2010: 4,713 (1.8%)
2011: 7,535 (2.3%)
2012: 10,553 (2.4%)
2013: 8,233 (1.8%)
2014: 6,961 (1.9%)
2015: N/A

As you can see, the EV was not some sort of sales leader for VW. The Eos has got to be on the chopping block because the sales went from goo to bad. The Tourag is doing well either as it's been floundering around the 2% mark. VW could take and get rid of the Eos and Tourag and bring in a mid size van like the Metris (which is quite similar in dimensions of a EV). Make it a TDI hybrid or a gas hybrid with a 7 speed DSG. Then after a year, offer it in AWD with a few other options levels.

Offer something that regular people would be interested in and give them a reason why they would want it. People want a refined van (if you have ever driven a T6 or a Metris, they are much more refined than the old T3's). Give it plenty of power and economy. Forget a manual with a TDI. The 100 or so people that would buy that does not make it viable to sell. Start the van at $30K and top it out at $50K.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*BUDD-e*

I think this article says it best:

http://autoweek.com/article/international-ces/vw-reveals-budd-e-ces-and-it-aint-no-microbus

*Minivan-ish EV highlights interfaces and connectivity, not nostalgia*

Well, it ain’t no microbus. After decades of hoping and believing that Volkswagen would bring back the iconic microbus that we all loved more than the Beetle, we are left at the altar once again. VW specifically tortured us by saying the BUDD-e “…brings the microbus into the 21st century.” So of course we expected to see a split-window Westphalia in magnificent two-tone paint job with the big, round VW logo on the front. Instead, VW revealed something that looked more like a stretched Scion xA. Go ahead, google Scion xA and tell us the BUDD-e doesn’t look almost line-for-line like it, maybe with a little more wheelbase.

Sigh.​


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

I think it looks great. Since VW will be offering it with a diesel in 2017, I'm going to buy one.


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

Here's the Budd-e portion of VW's CES presentation. Meh. https://youtu.be/dT5YdeABbYU?t=23m31s
I do like the 233 mile range... Getting there, I suppose.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

This is for sure an evolution of the UP van concept, not microbus. They say it does, but not enough to qualify as a retro version at all. Yes, it appears VW has given up on bringing back anything that evokes the same feelings as the original. This concept is not all bad, just not what I was hoping to see. I don't see this one going into production but rather a concept mule for technology. Bummer


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

I still have no idea what VW is doing in the US.

And neither do they.

The features are interesting and positive and I'm sure some will be included in future releases of SUV's/cars, but I
am really disappointed with this prototype. VW still has no substantial SUV, no palatable crossover, and nothing that can carry more than five medium-sized people. The earlier post listing VW's corporate reasons for not putting out a "van" in the US made no sense given the small sales numbers for the numerous other debacles they have released in the US - all I saw was a lot of double talk. If this is where you're going, just save everyone the time and effort and drop out of the US market because you still have no clue what you're doing.

VW right now in the US is that train wreck that you know is coming, but can't take your eyes off.

(Given their quality advance planning on the diesel disaster, what reason do I have to believe that any of these new features are anywhere close to being tested or even in any future QA cycle for 2018/19?)

I give up.

(Late edit: ..and I mean that literally. I'm so disgusted with VW right now that I feel like closing out my Vortex ID and not looking at anything VW. Ever. I keep biting on these liiiiiittle glimmers of hope, only to roll my eyes again and get pi**ed for hoping. Stupid me..)

(Late edit #2: ..and by the way..by my rough count, Toyota has sold 1.76 MILLION minivans in the US and Canada since 2003 and the numbers have increased each of the last five years (this number roughly equals VW's entire US sales - for all of its vehicles in the US for 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014...COMBINED). That's just Toyota. No Honda, FCA, or Nissan. If the minivan market is soooooo bad and sales are declining, don't call it a "minivan" if that makes you feel better. Call it some version of an MPV (I know Mazda already did that, but you get the idea)..god get a clue..


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

The VW Budd-e is just like the old VW busses. If it wasn't, then VW wouldn't have shown that video at the beginning. Plus a German with a PhD. came out on stage and told you how great it is. It has that nice screen in the van that keeps the kids from sticking their nose in their iPod or iPad. Now they can all just argue about who gets to control the screen while you are trying to figure out if you have enough brewski's for your Budd-e's because they are coming over to your pad to watch the playoffs. Hopefully you can hook up an XBox and play GTA5 or Call of Duty while your parents are driving down the road. It's even a post office. I don't see anything ever going wrong with that. I don't see all of those screens being a distraction at all when driving either. It's good that it has no door handles, as it's so 2016. As we all know with EV's, they break the front outside door handles. So, that problem is solved. Plus, it's a Syncro and that means some heavy duty rock crawling is in order. Heat has been solved so all of you air cooled guys will have instant heat because they use the power from the batteries to warm up the interior. I doubt that will hurt the overall range because if it did, then the good Dr. would have told us so. VW has answered everyones gripes about every offering of the T model range sold here in the US.

So, if that doesn't sell you on it, then nothing will.


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## definition56 (Jan 8, 2005)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> I still have no idea what VW is doing in the US.
> 
> And neither do they.
> 
> ...



Yep. Totally agree. I'm done with them. I still have a 2003 gli that only has 84k miles on it.....no one wants to drive it because only 2 people can fit in it. haha. It's on a battery tender now and it's leaving in the spring.


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*BUDD-e headed to production*

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-budd-e-electric-van-will-reportedly-see-production










The electric drivetrain and platform of the BUDD-e will see production, but whether it will look more like a Microbus is uncertain.​


*Vaguely Microbus-styled mini-MPV to use new electric platform*

The purely-electric and distantly Microbus-related Volkswagen BUDD-e will see production in the near future, Britain's Car magazine reports. The wee MPV that shares its name with a vape pen made its debut at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) earlier this year alongside other "connected mobility solutions," and presented Wolfsburg's vision of what a vehicle with the automaker's Modular Electric platform (MEB) could offer.

Volkswagen made no secret of its intention to put the new platform to use, hinting that it would "enable a series production car to have pure electric range on par with today’s gasoline-powered cars by the end of the decade," but stopped short of promising a specific model.

But Dr. Volkmar Tanneberger, head of electronic development at VW, did just that in an interview with Car magazine.

"You will see a car that looks a lot like this, on the MEB platform, reach production," Dr. Tanneberger said. "I can’t say exactly when, but 2020 or thereabouts."

In concept form the BUDD-e houses a 101-kWh battery that takes up almost the entire base of the chassis, with the automaker claiming a range of 373 miles in the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC). The concept itself measures 181 inches in length, making it closer in dimensions to a large upright MPV than an American-market minivan, with many at the CES comparing it to a larger version of the Scion xB.

"The basic idea is to develop a modular toolkit and take this flat battery idea into serial production, one motor on the front, one on the rear," said Dr. Tanneberger.

Tanneberger also indicated that the Transporter panel van and its passenger version would continue with internal combustion engines, stating that the MEB platform would not displace gas and diesel-engined van platforms entirely. That's a prudent development, as the production version of the BUDD-e would still be a niche vehicle even when it does go on sale.

We just wish the production model would look more like the VW Bus.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

> Tanneberger also indicated that the Transporter panel van and its passenger version would continue with internal combustion engines, stating that the MEB platform would not displace gas and diesel-engined van platforms entirely. That's a prudent development, as the production version of the BUDD-e would still be a niche vehicle even when it does go on sale.


 That's because when you go to Mexico, there are T6's everywhere. Just stand on a corner in Mexico and there seems to be at least three of them in sight at any time. Go to a VW Commercial dealer in Mexico City and there have got to be at least 100 sitting on the lot (they come in any color as long as it's white). Go over to the Cancun area and you'd think there was a T6 convention going on.

That van segment has intense competition down there and VW is really battling Ford and Toyota on those fronts. If VW stopped making that T6 in a diesel, that would be like shooting themselves in the foot. There is no way VW could ever sell a Budd-e to the Mexicans.

I think Tanneberger was just referring to the plant where they build the T6's as to keep the plant manager from getting murdered (that's not uncommon in Mexico but it's not as bad as it is in Brazil) from angry employees afraid VW would build a dud like the Budd-e, try to sell it to Mexicans and then shutter the plant.

Actually, I'd rather have a Toyota Hiace Van over a T6. If you are thinking of a van that reminds you of an old bus, that's the van for you. Plus it's cheaper than the T6.

http://toyota.com.mx/homevehiculo/vehiculos-comerciales-y-pick-ups/hiace/


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Vincent,

now you got me thinking. According to Wiki the T5 was sold with a stick. 

I once imported a car from Canada and it was fairly easy. I hooked up with a very good RI in Upstate NY and paid some duties and fees but it was straightforward. Now I am wondering if this could be done with a Mexican car as well. Need to do a research on RI's on the Southern border if they even exist at all.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Quite a few of them offer services under options 2,4 and 10:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/web_RI_list01122006.html


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

I live 2 hrs from ol' Mexico and I've seen at least 4 T5's around town (San Antonio). I have a buddy that lives 5 miles from Mexico in the McAllen metroplex and he sees all kinds of various non-US VWs in town, including Amaroks. Of course they all have Mexico plates. Does the 25 year import rule apply to Canadian and Mexican market vehicles?


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

AFAIK the 25 year rule applies to all markets.

The beauty of the Canadian market cars is that their specs are almost 1:1 the same as those in the US sans the obvious items like instrument clusters and a few odds and ends. This makes the importation of a Canadian car that is younger than 25y/o possible (mine was only 2 y/o). 

I am wondering if the same lax rules apply to the Mexican market cars. Did you ever see T5's with US plates down there?


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

KBATTPO said:


> Did you ever see T5's with US plates down there?


No, the ones I've seen have only had Mexico plates. I've seen a panel version at the BMW motorcycle dealer, and I've seen a beautiful blue California going down the hwy.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

I have never seen a Mexican VW with US plates when I go to Mexico. There are plenty of T5's down there. You can tell a T6 because it not all beat up yet.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

KBATTPO said:


> I am wondering if the same lax rules apply to the Mexican market cars.


No it does not.

Canadian cars are in their own category because their standards, as you noted, are very close to US-spec. CMVSS and FMVSS are quite close.

Mexico might as well be India, China, Brazil, Italy, Spain, Germany, etc. as far as vehicle importation is concerned.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Best way to put it is this. If it was easy and cheap to do, we'd all be doing it.

I suggest Googling: Importing in a non-US spec car into the US

If you really want to spend a month reading the 5 million posts on a subject: Importing a JDM car into the US

Trust me, you'll read many stories of someones father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate imported a "insert non-US spec car name here" and if they got it in all legit with title, license and insurance. Plus, it passes emissions without a problem. So, it's not hard at all to do. Trying to find out how it was done, that's another story. There are plenty of ideas that people have to sidestep the process yet they never do it.

If someone here could just start importing the T6 with a 102hp TDI and a 5 speed, then chip it up to 170hp, that will kill off the massive 5 speed conversion business for US spec VR6 T4's. Plus since the T6 is a TDI, I heard from a friend of a friend who is a buddy of a guy that posts over on the Food TV forum, that TDI's are exempt from emissions. If in doubt, VW will at least show you the trick as to getting it to pass.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Agree. If this were easy I would've been driving an RS2 a long time ago. So far I've seen only two stateside: one in PA w/o tags and the other one was on temp MI tags imported for a year by a Bilstein rep.

OTOH I do own a Canadian spec car not available in the US that I have imported myself 17 years ago that is fully DOT legal and PA titled. Hence my temptation to repeat this with a T5 VW. It's a pity this appears to be impossible with Mexican cars.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

There is good news though. If someone here would buy a few T5's (or T6's) and get them crash tested (plus figure out how to get it to pass) and then figure out the things like lights and emissions. Post the info here. It would be a service that we'd all appreciate. We would give you many thumbs ups and likes.

I'll even get you all feeling warm and fuzzy inside.

With cars being so global today, the T6 would pass crash testing. T6's are made for the global market and are designed to pass any crash test. I don't see any reason at all why a non US spec VW TDI would ever send up a red flag with the EPA right now. Just tell them that the T6 has European emissions and they are much more strict, which would pass any EPA test on even the T6's worst day.

You have to be aggressive with these agencies. Don't let them push you around. Do this and you'll get a T6 or T5 here with little if any money or time involved. I'd do it but I'm remodeling my bathroom, so I don;t have the time. After that, I got to put a roof on the house. So, when I'm done I expect to see some detailed info here. We need to save the EV!


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

You know that it's never about emissions or crash testing but is about the good ol' boys in Detroit shielding their turf from the competition and lobbying the antiquated junk they've been crunching out for the past 40 years with little or no design improvement (Ford Econoline, anyone?). Never has been. 

But I like your metaphor re: bathroom remodeling. Now if you gentlemen excuse me, I got some snow in the backyard to shovel.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

KBATTPO said:


> ...the antiquated junk they've been crunching out for the past 40 years with little or no design improvement (Ford Econoline, anyone?).


What I always found ironic is that one could go and buy a new vehicle that is less safe and more polluting than a new T5 or T6. And that vehicle is a motorcycle. Don't get me wrong, I like motorcycles plenty, but they lag behind cars in regards to emissions equipment, and they obviously don't surround the rider in a cage of high-tensile steel and airbags. 

I did go and look at a Metris van over the weekend, primarily to ask the sales manager to tell Mercedes that there is consumer interest in a more consumer-focused variant (ahem, the "Marco Polo"). The passenger Metris model makes for a great business shuttle van, not a family adventure-mobile. The good news is that the sales manager said that Metris sales have been strong for him. Interesting, as I have only seen one out in the wilds of the North Bay so far.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

jjvincent said:


> I suggest Googling: Importing in a non-US spec car into the US


http://icsw.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/

Note that there are links to instructions and they're labelled "Canadian" and "non-Canadian".

They are not labelled "NAFTA and non-NAFTA". Nor are they labelled "North American" and "non North American".

Therefore, Mexico is like any other country other than Canada and is not to be treated like Canada is.

Bear in mind there are at least three major agencies that are poking their nose into vehicle importation.

1. US CBP - probably mostly interested in tariff law, although I believe they will enforce the laws of some of the other departments (look for youtube videos of the CBP crushing non-conforming vehicles).
2. NHTSA - safety
3. EPA - emissions

While importing from Mexico might mean that NAFTA could possibly reduce the taxes and duties you pay on the vehicle compared to if it were a EU, Asian, etc. country, it doesn't excuse it from safety and emissions regulations.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

An old school mate of mine works for one of the big 3 doing the ol' safety thing. Anyway, when I asked him about a Mexican vehicle and US safety standards, his response, "They are on the list as the lower 1/4 of the worst safety regulations we have to meet." He's confident that the unibody is probably all up to the latest safety standards but as the the rest of it, it's whatever is the cheapest that any manufacturer can get away with (i.e. airbags are optional and even at that, are not to the same standard as the US counterparts). Things like the speed of the airbag, if it has three different levels of deployment dependent on weight of the passengers, side impact beam design, rollover protection, ect...

As for emissions, I can imagine what that's got to be like.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

jjvincent said:


> Actually, I'd rather have a Toyota Hiace Van over a T6. If you are thinking of a van that reminds you of an old bus, that's the van for you. Plus it's cheaper than the T6.


Ohhhh no you wouldn't. You speak like a human of western dimensions who has never sat in one. My 14 yr old T4 is more comfortable than the current Hiace. Cheap is only half the story...check out the Hyundai I-Load and I-Max if you see that in action.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

I have ridden in a Hiace more than once. I thought it was pretty nice. In some parts of Mexico, that's what they use for public transportation. It actually reminded me of riding in a T2 when it came to driver/passenger placement and size.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Just on the Budd-e concept here. First off, I don't believe they will build this even for 2020 (its still way too conceptual). Now, I'd love to have EV vehicle that could haul my family and give me the potential storage of a van -- and here's why the Budd-e is a complete disappointment - because its not a van! Where is that van functionality and robustness?

We in this forum probably love vans for our own reasons -- so it hurts because this Budd-e really isn't designed for us van lovers. And I'm not down with these gimmicky shiny features either - in fact those are the sorts of features (touch screens, panel displays, motion sensors, etc) that I don't want in a car. Maybe I'm a dinosaur - maybe a control freak - but I want tactile interfaces with machinery and with cars. I don't want no stink'n Johnny-Cab.










Now for a really-really optimistic view of Eurovan/T4 platform -- stay with me for minute --I'm not trying to blow smoke here. So, if you think about the structural layout of the van, it actually seems like a great platform for converting to an electric vehicle. Sure, the weight of the van is probably an issue -- but optimistically there is so much room for battery packs on the undercarriage. Ample space -- deep channels that run the length of the van. When I look at EV conversions done to classic or everyday cars -- battery pack placement seems to present major challenges in terms of storage, access and balancing the car. Where as true EV-designed cars seem to be built upon the battery platform -- allocating space for a bank of batteries that makes up the underside of the car. So there you go, there's a "+1" for staying with your Eurovan.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Totally agree. The vehicle in the pic above may be good in its own right but is no replacement for the EV. It resembles those cute Japanese vehicles that look like cubes on cart wheels. I already own a crossover with quite an impressive cargo hauling capacity. The EV is a minimum size van that makes practical sense. I'd be looking at the Sprinter were it not for its RWD layout coupled with automatic transmission - I am not in a suicidal mood to drive one of those in the winter.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

The only option you have in the US right now is a Metris. Anything else is too big for a normal garage or so small but had a roof like a Vista Cruiser. Since MB only sells it through the Commercial side, most of their sales will be aimed for that market. I've driven a few of them and they are way better than a T4. Comfortable, a diesel and thank goodness, no manual (as we all know automatics are the way to go). Plus you can buy parts for them and not have that dreaded NLA arts problem that is starting to plague the T4 market.

Since MB already went through the whole expenditure of making it US legal and selling them through the commercial side, the opportunity of them selling a Westy version is much easier. Even having an approved up-fitter makes the opportunity for someone buying a ready made van that can be flexible for a niche market actually doable here in the US. As for VW, they are not even close to doing that and I don't ever see it being done.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

How's this for a really-really-ridiculously-good-looking van?



















Unofficial, but supposedly based on the T6 dimensions.

Read more here: LINKAGE


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Lets see..

- Elegant? (check)
- Great looking? (check)
- Practical? (check)
- Doable? (check)
- Cool? (check)
- Ease of option add-on's? (check)

_This_ explains how and why this was thought up by someone NOT in Volkswagen..


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

@itsamoto - that is, by far, the best reinterpretation of a classic Bus that anyone has done. The fact that it didn't come from VW itself makes it even more amazing.

Imagine how many of these they could have sold during the height of the retro car fad of the late-90s/early '00s (think New Beetle, PT Cruiser, Prowler, HHR, the reborn MINI, etc.). Still, I am certain that they'd sell a bunch of those. They sure look better and more unique than the bland crossovers and vans that are currently on the market.

Make mine a pop top "MV"-type spec, please.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry that it's too nice for it to come from VW. 

It reminds me a lot of when somebody photoshopped round headlights over the the New Microbus concept. But overall - I like this new T1-Revival design much better -- it's not as George Jetson.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

How about this for an EV replacement?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsof-2aHSOU


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> How about this for an EV replacement?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsof-2aHSOU


LOL!!! :laugh:

I used to own one of those -- it's actually a Toyota Previa with some add-ons.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Ah the Previa. Back when Toyota had somewhat of an imagination. The supercharger setup on those was quite a stretch!


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

That T1 revival is amazing. So much better than the old concept from 15 years ago, better than the little Silli Bulli, and better than the Budd-e thing. Volkswagen needs to hire that guy or just pay him a gazillion bucks for his design and just do it.


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

@gti_matt Agreed! :banghead:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

digginthevan said:


> @gti_matt Agreed! :banghead:


IMHO, none of the previous concepts by VW truly captured the correct size nor styling details that properly echoed the original T1, especially the Bulli which was sized just 3 inches longer than a Scion xD (and shorter than a Mk7 Golf!) and had conventionally hinged rear doors:facepalm::screwy:. Just because they call it a Bulli doesn't mean it is. The Budd-e was a step in the right direction in terms of size but the styling details have zero going on in terms of paying homage to the T1.

This T1 revival is brilliant in echoing the original in and out, much like the NB echoed the Beetle, the Fiat 500 vs the classic 500, the Mini vs the Mini Cooper, etc.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Do any of you realise how small the original Transporter is? Truly it's no longer than a Ford Focus and not a lot taller. For the artists impression to work then it'd have to be built off a Golf chassis...[ding]...just like the forthcoming T7.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Seano said:


> Do any of you realise how small the original Transporter is? Truly it's no longer than a Ford Focus and not a lot taller. For the artists impression to work then it'd have to be built off a Golf chassis...[ding]...just like the forthcoming T7.



Original transporter is 168.5 in long. a new Focus hatch is 171" long. But you are comparing a car vs a van in actual interior space. The whole point of the VW Van is that its "car sized' in its footprint so that its as easy to drive around as a car. 

In VWs advertising for the Eurovan they made sure to note that it was within 2" of a Honda Accord in size!

Not the original, but pretty close. Not really all that much smaller than a T4. The Weekender T4 is also parked closer tote camera making it look even bigger.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

And also


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

The T1 and T2 were built when there was no such thing as safety and driver comfort (the T3 sort of got better). So, they are like driving around in a tin can, thus the interior space is pretty big. Since we now have to address driver comfort and safety, the physical outside needs to be bigger to address these issues.

When I drive my dads 1968 bus, it reminds me of how much of a deathtrap it is. Handling is horrible, it sort of stops and unless you can get it running around 80 to 90 mph, any cross wind makes it a real challenge to drive on the highway. My dad put a 911 engine in it back in 1977 and that just did a few things to make it different. It gave it more than enough heat, it allowed you to go faster than 68 mph and it demonstrated how terrible the brakes and handling are. Since it only weighs 2800 lbs (I put it on the scales one day) it's probably as fast as my 4500lb EV to a certain point (trust me at 100 mph, a T2 really makes you think if you are doing something that can end really bad). When I get back into my EV, it's like a sigh of relief and I feel like I'm back in something sort of modern.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

You're all missing the point...for the proportions of the T1 revival to work it has to be smaller than the T4 and the current T6...especially in terms of width.

Given that the T7 will be built on the same MQB architecture as the current Golf...then smaller seems almost a given.

The question for US consumers...is this what you want? If the answer is no then tough. Because it looks like that is what will happen. More so given that Crafter design and manufacturing is coming back to VW. And if VW doesn't sell their commercial vehicle division then they'll go down the route of Ford with the smaller Transit Connect and larger Transit. T7 in the former niche and new Crafter in the larger...and perhaps a downsize for both?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Seano said:


> You're all missing the point...for the proportions of the T1 revival to work it has to be smaller than the T4 and the current T6...especially in terms of width.




Why? 


Its not like anyone is complaining about the size of a T4. ALL cars have gotten larger over time. So the T4-T6 are still "Car sized" in relative terms.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

This thing would blow the original T1 out of the water for size -- but proportionally it feels right. :thumbup:

One source states (in regards to the T1 Revival): 



> Given the wheelbase of the T6 was extended by 7 cm. The VW T1 Revival Concept comes as a center distance of 3,070 mm. The total length is 4848 mm, width 1983 mm and height of 1,905 mm.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

A T4-T6 are the approximately the same size at a Metris and other vehicles in it's size. Why would we want to go to a T1 size? If we do, it'll be really small for interior size because of the points I mentioned before (comfort and safety). The T4-T6 will still fit into a garage and that's a good selling point. A T1 Revival model would just be another run of the mill Minivan. At that point, might as well buy a Chrysler Minivan.


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## snowbird88 (Dec 28, 2014)

Where do you see them, if I may ask?



jjvincent said:


> The only option you have in the US right now is a Metris. Anything else is too big for a normal garage or so small but had a roof like a Vista Cruiser. Since MB only sells it through the Commercial side, most of their sales will be aimed for that market. I've driven a few of them and they are way better than a T4. Comfortable, a diesel and thank goodness, no manual (as we all know automatics are the way to go). Plus you can buy parts for them and not have that dreaded NLA arts problem that is starting to plague the T4 market.
> 
> Since MB already went through the whole expenditure of making it US legal and selling them through the commercial side, the opportunity of them selling a Westy version is much easier. Even having an approved up-fitter makes the opportunity for someone buying a ready made van that can be flexible for a niche market actually doable here in the US. As for VW, they are not even close to doing that and I don't ever see it being done.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

snowbird88 said:


> Where do you see them, if I may ask?


My local MB dealer has a few of them on their lot. Both passenger and cargo.


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## paulpap (Mar 4, 2010)

*Drove a metris yesterday.*

The Metris handles well and is comfortable. But for me the cargo area is small for a potential weekender replacement. The floor foot print in back is about 4x8 feet, too small for me. I drove my 93 EV weekender to the Mercedes dealer for comparison. To me the EV is better, more space and just a bit less comfortable.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

The main difference is that you can't buy a new EV. Since people are looking for a replacement for a EV, the Metris is the only option everyone has right now. Sprinter/Promaster is too big and the Promaster Jr/Connect is too small. At the end of the day, if it wasn't for the Metris, we'd all be still trying to keep EV's going along with their shrinking parts supply.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Reading the newer news lead on the release of the new PanAmericana made me want to scream, both in delight and disgust. That such the perfect vehicle is available, yet so out of reach. I throw my arms in the air...


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Yeah but it's a diesel and you know what the US EPA thinks of VW diesels!!!

I'm sensing a significant future cutback in NA VW models in the short to medium term. You can forget about getting any sort of van from VW...for quite some time.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

I think you are going to see more SUV's from VW here in thee US. That's what sells. Minivans and mid size cars sales are going down. Then when articles bring up the "euro" vans that are showing up here in the US, 90% of them are fleet sales. Few ever get sold to the average person. Even MB is running TV ads for the Metris aimed at business owners, not the average family. FCA just got a contract from the USPS and has bought 9,000 Promasters. FedEx and UPS are even buying a combination of Promaster and Promaster Jr's. Unless VW plans on commercial van sales, no EV's here. 

Interesting thing is, Nissan never had a commercial vehicles division up until a few years ago and somehow they managed to pull it off. The correct way to go after VW and let them know you want a EV but not let them know, is to request a commercial vehicles division consisting of the Caddy, T6 and Crafter. That way, the old excuse of, "It'll be too expensive to ever bring a T6 to the US" won't be the first thing to come out of their mouth. Instead, it could be, "Well, Nissan started up a commercial vehicles division from scratch and it's working. So let's utilize our current manufacturing of the Caddy, T6 and Crafter in Mexico and start selling them here in the US. Our current lineup is suffering and we need something to increase our overall sales numbers here in the US."


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Just sold the Sienna and back on the prowl for a replacement van. I did swing by and loot at a Metris and found the size to be just about right. It feels smaller in the cab than the EV. They only had cargo version, no passenger options. It would have been nice to check a passenger version. They get spendy real quick and are for sure commercial grade, lots of hard plastic and generic interior parts. I plan to keep hunting around a bit before making a decision. Used EV MVs are out there but they are pretty spendy if they are in decent shape. It still might be the best way to go for now. I get so frustrated every time I see a picture of a T5. It would be so nice to get one!


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

There are a couple unique finds on Craigslist in my area...

VW '09 T5 Camper "California" $9000
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/cto/5720919086.html

1993 VW Eurovan Get-Away Camper $11000
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/rvs/5719698584.html


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Looks like Reimo has a pop top in their NA Metris and are out camping with it:

http://reimoamericas.com/updates-posts.html


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## J_Westy2 (Aug 12, 2009)

*Ford Westfalia Nugget*

I've relocated to Germany and was checking out the Ford Transit Westfalia Nugget while ordering a Grand Tourneo Connect.

Pretty nice package for 38k Euro I think. Ford NA should import this and capture all the boomer hippies and new hippies!

Better pictures here on the official website:

http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/0downloaddocs/2016/Nugget_auf_Basis_Ford_Transit_Custom_Broschuere_03.2016.pdf?m=1467037210


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Simply awesome: http://theinterferencemovement.org/RV/

[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/112112445084
[/URL]


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Had my first sighting of a Metris Passenger in the wild over the weekend. Very similar in size to the EV. 
The second row can face rearward like the MV (the one I saw was rear facing), but it's a two or three-wide bench with the middle in place wither way, so no walkthrough. 
The sliding doors can be ordered in either power or manual.
There is about the same amount of room behind the rear seat as the EV but with no shelf, and rear opening can be had with barn doors.
Did you know these are rear wheel drive? 

I'd have to say, if my EV were put out to pasture by an errant collision, the Metris would be my second choice replacement. The first being a good condition EV.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

marshy said:


> Had my first sighting of a Metris Passenger in the wild over the weekend. Very similar in size to the EV.
> The second row can face rearward like the MV (the one I saw was rear facing), but it's a two or three-wide bench with the middle in place wither way, so no walkthrough.
> The sliding doors can be ordered in either power or manual.
> There is about the same amount of room behind the rear seat as the EV but with no shelf, and rear opening can be had with barn doors.
> ...


I had no idea the second row could face backwards with these -- that was a huge draw for us with EV.

In August, I found one outside of a dealership at the ferry terminal -- I couldn't resist to grab a couple of quick pictures for a side by side with my GLS "camper". In the GLS's defence, she was quite packed at the back and may have had a bit of a droopy rear end. Stacked by my shortbase EV, I would say it definitely looks longer, is a bit wider but not as tall -- seating position is considerabley more car like (lower, further back) compared to the EV. Reminds me a lot of a Dodge Caravan - I don't know why (Routan similarities perhaps?). 









I rushed this shot - wish I parked it much closer for a tighter picture.










Note the second Paulchen bike rack while traveling (up on the roof) -- I just couldn't resist a good deal. 

I gotta say that I think the Metris looks pretty slick - but perhaps a bit too delicate in places. 

Considering the long-nose refresh dates back to 97 -- I think the EV is holding up pretty good in the looks department too. :thumbup:


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Itsamoto said:


> I had no idea the second row could face backwards with these -- that was a huge draw for us with EV.


I had no idea either. So according to MBUSA's van website, rear facing second row, or "conference seating" isn't available. In fact, I was so excited to see the second row facing rearwards, I forgot to see if it had Mexico plates, which is a high possibility here in south Texas. So it's possible it wasn't an American market Metris; which is also strange because the badge said Mertris and not V-* or Vito. 
And yes the Metris driving position is very low and car-like. One of my favorite things about the EV is it's high driving position. It's quite funny to pull up to people in tall trucks and be at eye level with them.
I'd have to agree that the EV's looks are aging quite well. The only thing that looks dated on it is the refractor headlights. I quite often surprise people when I tell them my EV is 13 years old.
I'm really admiring your bike rack setup. What system is this? And how well does the hatch open with the bikes on?


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

What were your thoughts on driving the Metris as compared to the T4?


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

I haven't driven one yet. But I could see just from standing next to it that the driving position is very low compared to the EV. The Car & Driver review is quite positive, especially the "80 mph at 2550 rpm" part.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

I've driven a few and they are really nice. Ride and comfort are much nicer than the EV. It's refined like a T6 but the real difference with the T6 is that you still get the T4 driving position. Like I've said before, "Go drive a T6 and the T4 feels pretty old."


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> I've driven a few and they are really nice. Ride and comfort are much nicer than the EV.


That confirms my suspicions -- now I definitely can't test drive it or Mrs. Itsamoto will insist we buy it. Good thing the middle row is only forward facing. 

I read somewhere that Mercedes is opening a plant in the US for their commercial/van production -- makes it a bit more tempting.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

This:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jaclyntrop/2016/07/27/mercedes-breaks-ground-on-its-500-million-sprinter-van-plant-in-south-carolina/#4e81469a7290


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> This:
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jaclyntrop/2016/07/27/mercedes-breaks-ground-on-its-500-million-sprinter-van-plant-in-south-carolina/#4e81469a7290


Uh-oh -- "Chicken Tax" talk could ensue. A more affordable Sprinter - or a more profitable one? Hmmmm, I wonder which it will be?


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Itsamoto said:


> Uh-oh -- "Chicken Tax" talk could ensue. A more affordable Sprinter - or a more profitable one? Hmmmm, I wonder which it will be?


More profitable. They're already circumventing the tax (along with ford and gm at their respective factories) by partially assembling in the SC factory. As long as the van imports with rear seats, or is assembled in the US, the tax is avoided.


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## max asst (Mar 19, 2001)

*I want it too.*

I saw the Metris in Appleton, WI this summer and parked our 2003 EV MV side by side, I know it won't feel cramped inside. My main concern is ice and snow driveability and having adequate torque from a 4 cylinder motor to propel this large vehicle. 

Our beloved Eurovan just turned 250,000miles this wee. It needs new exhaust, battery, tires and repairs to the rear hatch and sliding door which are nagging problems during the winter. Tires are ordered and fix the exhaust this week. I'll nurse the battery through the winter with a battery tender (awesome Optima blue top has lasted 6+ years, so no complaints there). Engine, transmission, suspension, electricals are all solid but the space and convenience of this wonderful van to use with 3 kids in ice hockey motivates me to keep.

So the question, repair the doors and eke another 1-2 years or get the Metris?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

max asst said:


> So the question, repair the doors and eke another 1-2 years or get the Metris?


C'mon this is the vw-van forum -- of course the answer is "repair" the doors!


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Even in San Diego's mild winter weather last year, along with some rain, made my slider latch act up. Just lube it up and it should be good to go.


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## Phae Phae (Apr 22, 2008)

jjvincent said:


> I've driven a few and they are really nice. Ride and comfort are much nicer than the EV.


Totally agree. What I really loved was the slick 7 speed automatic transmission and the turning radius.

If I were to buy one, I'd buy an entire Mercedes Vito dash and do a swap.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

Hey - another Bus-inspired concept coming that'll likely never see the light of day:

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/22/...icrobus-meb-platform-568523698/#slide-4319972


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## max asst (Mar 19, 2001)

*Test drove it. hmmm what next?*

I test drove the passenger Metris in Madison, WI along with my 10 and 6 year old. They loved it. 

Here are my impressions:

1. Cockpit - Aside from the joystick gearshift, the layout is good, but it feels more industrial and coarser than our E320. I am 5'5" which makes some vehicles difficult to adjust because of seats being too high. This was just right, and I had a commanding view, just like in our EV MV.

2. Driving - steering is lighter but with excellent feedback compared to our EV. Just right nimble responsive steering that makes it feel "smaller" than its physical size. It doesn't wallow on the road like an Odyssey or Town and Country which are more numb at the steering wheel. Steering input in those vehicles is more akin to a suggestion of a navigation change rather than the Metris' crisp steering like a car. The metris did not feel twitchy either and was quite stable and predictable on negative camber turns. The icing on the cake is the traction control which keeps it pointed where you want it when 1 or 2 wheels touch ice. Very impressive and not overdone or abrupt. It really takes the fatigue out of driving on these surfaces during the winter.

3. Engine - excellent power and pickup for a 4 cylinder motor. We didn't have our entire complement of 6 passengers with luggage and 3 hockey bags, so that part remains to be seen and experienced.

4. Storage - although the van seems larger on the outside, the floor seems higher and I find myself missing the height below the seats of the EV where we can slide two full-size roller hockey bags underneath and still have room for a full size soft bag. I am also missing the rear shelf. A rear shelf's utility in allowing easy access to large items below and many items above cannot be underemphasized.

5. Other: passenger seats are hard and there is no sunroof.

Hmmm, since we repaired the sliding door ($41) and rear trunk (free),then replaced battery ($125) power steering fluid ($16) and tires (Nokian enTyre with proper 102 load rating $67 each off Amazon and installed at a new Discount Tire for $12 each) and the EV is again zipping along doing its job quietly. I think we'll belay the Metris purchase as it's hard to spend when everything works again as it should.


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## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

With as many times as our '03 has been in the shop this year, the blower motor might be the final straw. The Atlas can't get here soon enough.....


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Finally... something to get our hopes up over -- the ID Buzz concept. Electric AWD. Seems VW has kept that 2001 Microbus concept -- keeping it up their sleeve for just such an occasion as diesel gate. ETA 2022-2025.



















My only gripe is with this "self-driving" car thing - I'm obviously not the intended generation -- but check out the pedals: Pause and Play. :laugh:










Linkage: http://www.caranddriver.com/news/volkswagen-id-buzz-ev-concept-photos-and-info-news


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

Bus concept #8? I've lost count on how many concepts they've made over the last 20 years. I'm not holding my breath over this one or anything else they come up with. This seems to just be another example of what Volkswagen can, but won't/can't make. The other thing that bugs me about these concepts are how small they are. I think the idea behind the original bus was that when it broke down, you could live in it for a few days.

The front crash test standards of today are making these concepts nearly impossible to put into production. I don't have an article to quote, but it's been mentioned that the front end would need to be extended in order to pass crash tests. Doing that would basically give us a Scion xB, not a VW bus. Nobody wants a new van or bus because it's small, that market has already been covered. 

I'm shocked that they haven't at least considered bringing the T6 here and doing the same thing other brands do to get around the chicken tax. Every time one of these concepts comes out it's yet another chance for VW to let me down. I feel like what VW could do is pony up a handful of T6's and submit them for US crash testing and emission testing. That would at least open the door for us to import them legally. It would be cheaper for them to make a "US package" for their existing models than design and build a completely new model. They're already under a worldwide microscope with their emissions so building them all to be clean enough for the California market certainly wouldn't hurt their reputation.

But what do I know. It seems the only people that _really_ know the US market are getting escorted out of VW headquarters in handcuffs.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

Close - it's their fifth concept:










A few years after the whole retro car craze pretty much came to an end. 

(via Jalopnik - http://jalopnik.com/why-volkswagen-absolutely-has-to-make-this-electric-mic-1790961408)


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Go home VW, you're drunk.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

gti_matt said:


> Go home VW, you're drunk.


Seconded.

VW, pull your head out of your rear and start selling the transporter line in the U.S. :banghead:


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

I don't even care if they refuse to sell the transporter line here. Every article I've read says they wouldn't be able to price it realistically in the United States. What I don't understand is why they won't at least make it possible to import them here. 

Right now, if I wanted to import a T5, I would have to buy 7 or 8 of them for crash testing and emission testing. Once they were given the green flag to import them, anyone could import one. Why can't VW just offer up some to be tested on to open the door for us to import? Seems silly for them to not do this. Then we could have them if we wanted them and VW wouldn't have anything to worry about. 

I've owned 24 VW's in my 15 years of driving (5 of which were bought from the dealership) and I'm pretty much done with the brand. They don't offer anything that appeals to me except _maybe_ a Golf R. I love the models they offer elsewhere but my next new purchase will be a different brand for sure. 

I won't bore anyone with my thoughts on the Atlas.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

"Won't be able to price it reasonably" is a farce and a BS excuse. Ford, GM, FCA, MB all do it. I think VW is so concerned with keeping some sort of distorted image as a company that they can no longer see the forest for the trees. C'mon, get with the damned program. Use the same model everyone else is SUCCESSFULLY using. The volume money maker is cargo. Then you can also offer your higher passenger trims along side that.


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

From what I remember the entry level passenger van wasn't brought here because it would have been in the $50k ballpark. 
Edit: I stand corrected- well equipped for $50k. "We are selling vans, very well-equipped vans with four-wheel-drive, with kitchenette, with everything that you want for prices of $50,000 and up, which is not where the market here is..."

Article:http://michiganradio.org/post/why-vw-will-not-bring-back-van-us-least-right-now

Another big problem for them is reliability. No company wants to pay top dollar for a cargo van that will be in the shop on a monthly basis. I don't know how, after 80 years making automobiles, they've become more unreliable and more expensive than everyone else. You'd think they would have had it all figured out by now. 

They need to stop making engine parts out of cheap plastic (coolant flanges, intake manifolds, oil pans, dipstick tubes, valve covers,etc) and stop doing things the more complicated way just to be different. The list of specialty tools needed to do simple repairs has gotten out of hand. It's great that their service departments are always busy fixing their design flaws but it's not so good for those of us paying the bill. I guess it's a good thing they are so money hungry, otherwise they wouldn't have the $14B they've had to pay in penalties over the scandal.


Tesla-http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-about-to-eat-volkswagens-lunch-1784408514


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it's pretty much auto industry standard now to make seemingly critical parts from plastic, so they're not alone there, but they do tend to over complicate things. I like to say, If German car companies invested as much into their quality control departments as they do in their engineering departments, they'd be the best cars on the road.

As for price, Counterpoint:

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...SIP=sOv5EMzNshyUd8zuq1qkexpV&showToolbar=true

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...SIP=sOv5EMzNshyUd8zuq1qkexpV&showToolbar=true

A top of the line toyota and honda minivan for $46K? So for only $4K more i can have a diesel, 4x4 campervan?


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

marshy said:


> A top of the line toyota and honda minivan for $46K? So for only $4K more i can have a diesel, 4x4 campervan?


I'll take a cloth with manual transmission. And who do I make the check out to?


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

04VWGTITURBO said:


> I'll take a cloth with manual transmission. And who do I make the check out to?


Romano Motors of Fayetteville, NY 

I suppose...

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...=MB&modelCode1=MBSPRINTER&listingId=444320795


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

No manual 

Mercedes can sell that passenger van at $58k. VW doesn't think anyone would be interested in anything like that, with a fridge, that's a camper, that's already being produced, for $8k less and would still fit in your garage. 

Meanwhile 10 year old TDI swapped Eurovan weekenders are selling for $40k, Syncro Vanagons with 1.8t swaps are selling for $70k...there's a reason the prices are high. There is a high demand for these types of vehicles with newer more reliable engines.

Passenger T6's are selling brand new at Tijuana Volkswagen for $25k USD. They offer 28 VW models including a passenger Crafter. What am I missing? 

http://www.vw-emporio.com.mx/Modelos/


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Have any of you been to Mexico and been in their T6? If you have, that's not the one everyone wants. The ones they sell there are for commercial use. VW could sell them here but until they set up a commercial vehicles division and dealer base, you can forget it. They need to do what MB did. Plus, MB even spent $1.3B just to expand their Alabama plant and they are processing more Sprinter and Metris vehicles through that place.

The EV's we all want will cost $65 - $70K. Just go price one out and you'll see. I'll buy one in a jiffy but who else here is ready to drop that kind of coin? We went through this discussion more than once yet the interest in a new T6 is about 100 people total. Only reason why everyone here thinks that the the US is chomping at the bit for a T6 is because we all own old T4's and love to sit around the glow of our computer screens with like minded T4 owners and talk about what it would be like to have a new T6 California with 4wd, TDI and DSG. Problem is, nobody ever prices one out to see how much they actually cost. This is not 2003 when you could pick up a new Weekender for $32K.

On the other hand, go drive a new T6 in Europe and you'll really want to get rid of your T4 because it makes your T4 seem really antiquated. Sort of like my new Alltrack makes my Eurovan and Jetta seem really old. Even my fathers 2008 Jetta is not seeming as nice as it was when it was back when it was new.


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

I have not been in a Mexican T6 but from the pictures that's a vehicle I want right now. New, T4 sized, updated cabin, appealing exterior, manual, not over the top in the rear passenger compartment. For $25k I can deal with it not being as nice as a California. It's still nicer than my 93 or my 00, it's a new car. I can see from the pictures on the link I posted that some areas in the rear of the van are just painted metal for the interior. Hopefully they have rubber floors in the rear too. Kids are good at destroying interiors. 

It wouldn't be hard to find someone to build your dream camper out of a base model for $40k if that's what you desire. That platform being available to bring here is what I'd like to see, in any version. Like I've said, I don't even care if I have to drive to Mexico to get one, VW should at very least help make it possible to own one in the United States.


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

04VWGTITURBO said:


> For $25k I can deal with it not being as nice as a California



I think that's the problem - they can't really be had for $25k, right?


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

jjvincent said:


> The EV's we all want will cost $65 - $70K. Just go price one out and you'll see. I'll buy one in a jiffy but who else here is ready to drop that kind of coin? We went through this discussion more than once yet the interest in a new T6 is about 100 people total. Only reason why everyone here thinks that the the US is chomping at the bit for a T6 is because we all own old T4's and love to sit around the glow of our computer screens with like minded T4 owners and talk about what it would be like to have a new T6 California with 4wd, TDI and DSG. Problem is, nobody ever prices one out to see how much they actually cost. This is not 2003 when you could pick up a new Weekender for $32K.


Sure, I dream about the T6 Cali. And I probably couldn't afford the exorbitant price tag if they went on sale tomorrow. But if they did go on sale tomorrow, I'd be at the dealer ordering an MV (or Caravelle equivalent), which is in the same price range as the Oddesey and Sienna. Then, in a few years after the market calms, I could find a nicely used Cali. And don't doubt for a second that there would be plenty of used cali's on the market. There are tons of people looking for compact campers, many have remorse for the purchase and go back to bigger buses, many keep them. My grandparents are an example of the remorse crowd.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Again, unless VW does commercial sales, no T6 will ever be sold here. MB cranked out 5982 Metris' in 2016. I guarantee that the majority of them were for commercial use. Plus, MB gets around the 25% Chicken Tax by reassembling them in SC. MB didn't spend $500M to build Sprinters here and reassemble the Metris here for no reason. Contrary to what everyone believes, the T6 is subject to the Chicken Tax (it was when it was sold here as a T4 and that's why it was overpriced as compared to every other van out there, thus the bad sales when mini vans were all the rage).

So, that $25K 140hp TDI T6 will actually cost you an extra $6250. The way VW prices similar vehicles for the US market, that would be a $35K vehicle when it's done. That version is pretty much a 1999 GLS when it comes to how it's outfitted and the power. On the other hand, MB can sell you the same plain Jane Metris for $30K right now. They even just introduced the Metris Worker for $26K and it has 208hp. As you can see, VW would have to upgrade the Mexican T6 because you can't survive on 100 enthusiasts that are willing to put up with a 140hp TDI in their brand new T6. Unless you match MB, rebuild them in the US and have a commercial outlet to justify selling it here, it's never going to be done.

In addition to MB, you have RAM and Ford which have a distribution and tons of fleet sales. Thus, they are successful. The amount of Ford and RAM vans that are for personal use and pleasure is tiny. They only offer the personal ones because most of those are sold as fleet because we need people movers.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Contrary to popular belief, the chicken tax did not apply to the T4 and would not apply to the passenger T6 that all of us want; but would apply to the cargo T6 VW would need to sell in order to make money. The T4 was more expensive than others in it's segment because VW marketed itself as a premium brand back then. It was almost laughable to consider the Eurovan as "premuim" compared to Honda and Toyota with it's spartan list of options and lack of leather and other gizmo crap that the average soccer mom can't live without. In my opinion that lack of "luxury" played a large part in the American sales failure of the T4. 

But I digress.

Only vans that are cargo, with no rear seats or windows, and light duty pickups are subject to chicken tax. However, in order to follow current the business models of Ford, FCA, MB etc. all vans have to be imported as passenger versions, including rear windows, then converted to cargo versions replacing windows with paneling and removing rear seats on U.S. soil. This is something that VW would have to implement, just as others have, to join the volume cargo market, and is something they're not currently willing to do. As for dealer fleet network, that's a no-brainer. Just do as MB did and sell them through existing dealerships. Either way, I agree, VW has to do commercial sales to make money with the T6 in the U.S. And now the passenger version can be outfitted with enough gizmo and luxury to satisfy the most voracious of soccer moms. 
I'll still take mine in cloth though.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

According to my contact that worked at VWoA from 1965-2001, every T1-T4 had a chicken tax applied to it. Maybe he was wrong but I have a feeling he was not. Maybe VWoA was paying it and didn't need to. If he was still alive today, I could ask him for the 10th time if it had the chicken tax.

Back to what everyone here wants. I have asked in the past how many would really buy a T6 and I get about 7-10 "absolutely" after that, it's like crickets. I've asked people to do a writing campaign and yet I never hear of anyone who has written VWoA a letter. Since 2005, I have written VWoA two letters a year. I do it in two paragraphs and never the same letter (so I don't look like I just am just doing a resend). As of January 3rd, I have sent 25 letters to VW asking them to send over the T5 and now T6. I let them know I am a VW owner, I currently own a Eurovan and I have priced out which T6 I'd buy. I then give them a short list of the exact version I want. The latest letter I even let them know I bought a new Alltrack and will be buying another new car within 12 months.

I ask all of you. How many letters have you written VW? Because unless you have and keep doing it, just thinking that someone from VWoA is looking at the forum and gauging interest is just wishful thinking. Unless you actually spend 30 minutes per year writing two letters, I have a feeling that the 25 that I have written since 2005 is not going to cut it because I think they have figured out that selling one EV per year to me is probably not going to happen. I'll buy one and keep it for 10 years. Unless the tens of thousands of EV owners out there let VW know they have cash in hand and will buy one, there's no reason to offer here at all. You can't just sit in the corner and hope that VW can read your mind.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

jjvincent said:


> According to my contact that worked at VWoA from 1965-2001, every T1-T4 had a chicken tax applied to it. Maybe he was wrong but I have a feeling he was not. Maybe VWoA was paying it and didn't need to. If he was still alive today, I could ask him for the 10th time if it had the chicken tax..


Everyone else is circumventing it one way or another. There is market share to be had. Nothing ventured, Nothing gained.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141124/OEM11/311249980/how-sprinter-dodges-the-chicken-tax


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

marshy said:


> Everyone else is circumventing it one way or another. There is market share to be had. Nothing ventured, Nothing gained.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/20141124/OEM11/311249980/how-sprinter-dodges-the-chicken-tax


 I know exactly how it works and I know someone who works in the plant. In the end, if VW was doing it wrong, then it's up to you to let them know. Then let them know you want a T6. When this thread goes away for a while, we all go back to the same thing. Wishing that VW could read our minds that someone out there except this one goofball that writes twice a year, actually would buy a T6 (I'm not talking about those people that wish they could buy one but the ones that will lay down cash for one) if it was for sale here in the US. We can discuss the chicken tax until it's ready to serve in a bucket with a side of mashed potatoes and gravy, but it won't change the fact that VWoA has no idea that people want a T6, chicken tax or not.


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

The new Crafter might be more along the lines of what the general public would want.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/n...d-option-us-market-entry-possible-109892.html

The new one isn't based on the Sprinter and has some nice features. I could see it coming here to compete with the Sprinter/Transit/Promaster/NV2000, as they're pretty popular.


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

Here's another 5,000 people that are at least interested...Facebook's "Bring the T5 VW Camper to USA" group. They brought 5,000 R32's to the US. That seemed to be enough vehicles to make it worthwhile for them, right? 

Understand that my argument isn't even for them to bring it here. My argument is that they should at very least make it able to be imported here. They'll still get their vehicle sale, we will get the vehicle we desire and everyone is happy. What does Volkswagen care if we own one. Shouldn't they want us to buy their vehicles? Bringing one up from Mexico, import a California from overseas, doesn't matter to me. 

If they did officially bring the transporter here they would also have to stock enough parts in all of their US warehouses to keep up with the parts demand for X years. I realize that would cost them tons of money. But if they let me bring one here, that would be my problem, not Volkswagen's. They would get my money from a vehicle that would be sitting on a lot waiting to be purchased, they would get my money buying parts across a border. They wouldn't have any money invested in making it legal to import aside from the base models they submit for testing.

I guess I'm just curious as to why they wouldn't make it possible for any customer to own the VW of their choice. They're in the volume business after all...

The entry level passenger T6 in Mexico starts at 435,231 pesos. That's $19,826 USD according to the current exchange rate.


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

They don't really have a lot of incentive to bring a T5 or T6 here. Especially if they plan to bring in the new Crafter.

The 5000 count R32 didn't sell very well, either. VW/Audi doesn't have a great history of meeting the enthusiast demand, but to be honest the enthusiasts don't have a great history on following through. People on the vortex and other forums talk about what they'd buy, but when it comes time to put their money where their mouth is, they just don't follow through.

I'd love to see more enthusiast vehicles and I'd love to buy a T6. Even a base model version. But I don't see it happening. I'm crossing my fingers for the new Crafter with a 5 cylinder diesel. AWD would be fantastic.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

It seems to me that another group that has no incentive for a new VW camper van to be sold in the US, a large part of the enthusiast community itself, is those who are currently making a living off of refurbishing, retrofitting and flipping older units. It is in their best interest to remain silent on the issue as it would reduce demand for their businesses.

I wonder what their official stance on the issue is?


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

> The entry level passenger T6 in Mexico starts at 435,231 pesos. That's $19,826 USD according to the current exchange rate.


Before you start quoting Mexican prices, let's just look at some other VW products that are sold in Mexico and the US.

Mexican built VW's sold in US and Mexico:
Golf: US: $19,895 - 21,595 , Mexico: $12,897 - $16,536
Jetta: US: $17,895 - $24,995, Mexico: $10,778 - $14,832
Beetle: US: $19,995 - $25,975, Mexico: $12,897 - $18,655
Golf GTI US: $25,595 - $34,095, Mexico: $20,313
Jetta GTI US: $27,895, Mexico: $19,853

This is an interesting one (since I just bought an Alltrack and was looking up Sportwagen prices):
You can buy a brand new CrossGolf in Mexico for $16,845K. It's a Golf Sportwagen that looks like a Alltrack, DSG panoramic sunroof and technology package. Same equipped Golf Sportwagen in the US costs $27,030. The cheapest Sportwagen you can buy in the US is $21,580 (an S with a manual). Think about it. Both cars are made in the same plant and are obviously the same car. Why is it that in Mexico, the CrossGolf costs $10,185K less? Why does the cheapest Sportwagen in the US cost $4,735 more than the CrossGolf? If anyone should be salivating, it would be every Golf Sportwagen owners dream because they can get an Alltrack lookalike for 37.6% less than owning the comparable Sportwagen in the US.

VW not built in Mexico or US:
Tourag: US:$49,495 - $60,195, Mexico: $39,615 - $47,905. The top of the line Tourag is an R-Line with a 360hp V8. Not like all US Tourag's with the $280hp V6. Plus in Mexico they have a Hybrid Tourag that's $50,900.
CC: US: $34,475, Mexico: $23,952 - $24,920
Tiguan: US: $24,995 - $34,500, Mexico: $16,992 - $22,382 (I did not include 4wd since it's not offered in Mexico)

VW built in the US, sold in the US and imported to Mexico:
Passat: US: $22,440 - $30,995, Mexico:$16,352 - $21,925 (the Passat in Mexico even gets an R-Line and you can get the 280hp V6 as opposed to every US spec only gets 170hp Turbo 4 and no R-Line).

If you are looking for some other great VW products:
UP!: $6,333 - $8,429
Gol: $7,277 - $7,968


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

marshy said:


> It seems to me that another group that has no incentive for a new VW camper van to be sold in the US, a large part of the enthusiast community itself, is those who are currently making a living off of refurbishing, retrofitting and flipping older units. It is in their best interest to remain silent on the issue as it would reduce demand for their businesses.
> 
> I wonder what their official stance on the issue is?


If I was generous, I'd say there are 8-10 people in the US that make a living off of flipping and retrofitting T4's. They can be silent all they want and that's not going to make a difference.

Not wanting a T6 is just shooting you in the foot because you have a problem with T4's. Your stock depletes and you customer base gets grayer and dies off. The younger people don't even know what a T4 is and pretty much could care less even if they seen one. Then if you refurbish one, they sure don't have the $50K to buy it. So, with a new T6, you are right out there in the public eye and in addition to that, outfitters can use their talent, knowledge and all of that equipment to use that for new T6's. It just expands their business. I can't imagine anyone who is in that business, wouldn't want more. It's just like in 2005 when Ford went retro on the Mustang, all it did is increase everyone's business on classic Mustangs because people remembered those existed and want a new and old one as a garage king and queen.


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## 04VWGTITURBO (Apr 14, 2004)

So what's the explanation for the Mexican equivalents being so much less? 

Why do they get fully loaded models that are made, but not offered here...and are less expensive?


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

04VWGTITURBO said:


> So what's the explanation for the Mexican equivalents being so much less?
> 
> Why do they get fully loaded models that are made, but not offered here...and are less expensive?


 Every market it different. I'd say that in Mexico, what you mostly see are T6's, Crafters, Golf's, Jetta's and Gol's. For not current production, a ton of Nuevo Jetta (MKIV Jetta that they kept selling until 2015). You are seeing more Saviero's and CrossFox's. As for the rest of the VW line, you rarely see anything. I don't think I've ever seen a T6 that was not a people mover or taxi that was owned by a company. For Mexicans, cars are really expensive and even a $10K VW is a lot of money for them. In general, I guess that Americans can afford to pay more and that's why they charge more here.

One other thing is that many of the cars are not even close to US standards. I rented a brand new 2016 VW Gol and it had no airbags, no radio, no ABS, no TC and no ESP. Roll up windows and manual locks. It did have motion sensors and an alarm. Even the T6's you see driving around, they smoke a bit out the tailpipe. Pretty much the same as my old 2000 Jetta TDI does today with 191K. I seriously doubt those thing even come close to any emission standard. Mexico is not very strict on emissions and car safety. Probably the US VW's that are built in Mexico are close to US safety standards but I have a feeling VW cuts corners because they can. Same for the emissions.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Billions in penalties, multi-billions in a settlement plan and an executive being arrested and others indicted. I don't know, but perhaps the US market just isn't worth it to VW?

Their parting shot, "Release the Micro-buzz concept."


What's VW/Audi gross from US sales? Probably $4-6 billion a year?


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## swimrr (Jan 8, 2009)

*Sportsmobile Metris Terra Camper Edition*

Sportsmobile has just announced their new Metris Terra Camper Edition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvcyBQwzh1Y


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

At least someone is doing something and that's good.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

Hooray for Sportsmobile picking up M-B's slack. I couldn't find info online, but anyone care to venture to guess what their Metris conversion is going to retail for? I am guessing $60-$65k.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

VW self driving van concept: Sedric











http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/6/14832354/volkswagen-sedric-self-driving-van-concept-mobility


Drivers wanted!


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

How about a group buy for this:
http://www.motor1.com/news/138016/brabus-v-class-business-lounge/


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

jjvincent said:


> How about a group buy for this:
> http://www.motor1.com/news/138016/brabus-v-class-business-lounge/


PFFFT! Call me back when they have an AMG version :laugh:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> How about a group buy for this:
> http://www.motor1.com/news/138016/brabus-v-class-business-lounge/


€298k (not including VAT)


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

It's here! 

https://youtu.be/WvcyBQwzh1Y

http://sportsmobile.com/mercedes-metris/


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Am I reading that right? $36k for just the conversion?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Itsamoto said:


> Am I reading that right? $36k for just the conversion?


That’s probably about right.



On a related note. I’ll be able to offer full Metris conversions soon. I just set up a deal with one of the largest Euro conversion companies to start building here.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

That conversion costs more than the van - and while it doesn't look bad, its nothing that special. The fit and finish along that driver side rear door is awful for that type of money. :screwy:

Good on you Cole - undercut that please. :thumbup:


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Itsamoto said:


> Am I reading that right? $36k for just the conversion?


$9,600 for just the top. Just to put it on par with weekender capabilities. Not to mention it's a new vehicle, with all the modern creature comforts (you can bring them your used metris for a conversion). And compared to some EV weekender prices, that's not too bad. Full camper conversion adds another $26k, which does seem highly unreasonable, and the fit & finish does leave alot to be desired. I would suspect many would opt for the top install, then try and outfit the inside themselves, not that it really needs anything besides maybe a 12v fridge.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Now having watched the video of this and seeing it in use -- its worse than I thought. And compared to the Marco Polo interior - just terrible, very poorly thought out when there are much better examples that already exist. 

Modular cabinets, a portable stove and a portable cooler -- thats not exactly a refined packaged solution that a conversion should be. And good luck pulling that bed into place if you didn't buy the pop-top (which I admit seems to work pretty nicely) - and you'd probably only have about 18-24" (if that) of clearance from mattress to the roof.

Why not just have a bench that folds down into a bed -- like every other van-camper?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Ok -- just thinking this through now, based on the converted interior -- that $26k must include a new van. Which makes it $35k for a new pop top camper. Am I wrong?


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

Itsamoto said:


> Ok -- just thinking this through now, based on the converted interior -- that $26k must include a new van. Which makes it $35k for a new pop top camper. Am I wrong?


I think you may be wrong. While it seems that the price should include the van, I'm 95% sure it doesn't. Their pricing kind of defies logic. I'd assume the top conversion would be the more expensive item judging by the amount and fit and finish of their interior conversion options. That sure doesn't look like $26k worth of outfitting. 
Good news is you can now pick up gently used a Metris in the lower $20k range.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

*Bulli in Bavaria*

I stopped by a VW dealer in the Munich area yesterday and ogled a new T6 "Bulli" edition. So sweet - and so expensive. 









































































Yep - €92,000 for a VW van. The white one in front of it was a lesser-equipped model, a mere €86,000.


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## marshy (Aug 7, 2012)

bigfatgeek said:


> Yep - €92,000 for a VW van. The white one in front of it was a lesser-equipped model, a mere €86,000.


Have you seen how much people are paying for sprinter RVs?


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## wildenbeast (Jul 25, 2008)

There is a Metris Camper with a Terra Camper interior for sale in the Denver craigslist. It looks sweet but is listed at $80k.
https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/mercedes-benz-metris-camper/6357067837.html


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Funny you should mention this Bill.

I’m in Germany right now doing a Metris Camper conversion at Reimo. CaveVan will be offering at least 3 versions when I get back.


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## wildenbeast (Jul 25, 2008)

Let me know if you need any help testing the cool products you bring back. There's a nice Syncro transmission on eBay Germany right now that could add some fun to one of your projects too!


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## Phae Phae (Apr 22, 2008)

Xtremjeepn said:


> Funny you should mention this Bill.
> 
> I’m in Germany right now doing a Metris Camper conversion at Reimo. CaveVan will be offering at least 3 versions when I get back.


Metris, EV, Sprinter?

Out of curiosity - think it'll be possible to port over the Mercedes Vito dashboard over to the Metris? Also would it be possible to get AWD?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Phae Phae said:


> Metris, EV, Sprinter?
> 
> Out of curiosity - think it'll be possible to port over the Mercedes Vito dashboard over to the Metris? Also would it be possible to get AWD?



Sorry, I've been so busy I forgot to come back to this thread and reply. 

Germany was awesome. So much more impressed with the Reimo products than I expected. I spend 7 days in the factory and making deals in Germany to get set up to do Metris conversions and other fun stuff. 



















First roof I got to cut off in Germany....I have growing collection of van with roof cut off selfies. Thats a Metris FWIW.


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## pan-d-man (May 23, 2006)

Sienna SE available in AWD for 2019. Still nothing new on electric Bulli. They were saying 2020-2021? That's not far off.


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