# EOS shudder with top down?



## macaddiict (Feb 26, 2003)

Hi all,

I test drove a 2011 Eos yesterday. Only 28 miles on the odometer, so it hadn’t been taken out much at all. The car that made me want a ‘vert of my own in the first place is a friend’s 2003 Beetle Convertible. That thing is SUCH a blast to drive (albeit, slow and not the best brakes). The thing that shocked me most about her NBC was how super solid feeling and sturdy it feels on our terrible Oklahoma roads.

So, I was kind of bummed by my test drive yesterday. First, the Eos felt a little cramped compared to the giant NBC bubble/round top. Then, as soon as I pulled on the road with the top down, the Eos had some fairly obvious shuddering or shaking that I really didn’t expect.

At first I thought it was just out of balance wheels or something, but I pulled over, put the top up – and bam, the car was solid and not shaky feeling. The salesman remarked that someone else had said the same thing to him (about the shuddering) while test driving a different Eos. Is this something you have noticed? I just really can’t believe that the more expensive Eos isn’t more rigid than the old NBC.

I actually found myself sitting in a NBC after the test drive and pondering going for one of them instead. But I can’t picture myself in one! And the 2012 Eos is calling my NAME!

Seriously though, it really felt like an old convertible to me due to the shuddering. Any thoughts?
Thanks! Hope to join the ranks soon.

-Stephen


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

Hmmm..... I have to answer this cautiously, because the Eos is our first convertible, so I'm not really in a position to compare based on experience.

I guess off the start I'm surprised that the NBC was totally solid feeling. Convertibles are known to be less rigid, and tend to have some shudder in them due to the structural rigidity that is lost when you remove the roof. I would have expected the NBC to exhibit some of these convertible qualities.

That said, the EOS was designed and built from the ground up to be a convertible, as opposed to taking an existing model, cutting off the roof, and then trying to stiffen the frame to reduce shudder and cowl shake. When it was first introduced many reviewers remarked on how solid the Eos was... for a convertible.

Being a retractable hard top, you will retain more structural rigidity with the top up when compared to a rag top with the top up. so it might be fair to note more difference in structural integrity between top up/top down driving with a hardtop, vs a rag top, which probably doesn't change much top up or top down.

I can't say I have ever noticed any unusual amount of shudder in our Eos, but again I have no experience with other verts to compare it to, and for the most part, we travel on fairly good roads.

Kevin


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## DubsNpugs (Dec 23, 2010)

I can't say I have experienced the "shudder" you are referring to. I drive about 25k miles a year on Tampa's dumpy roads and I have the top down A LOT!!! I will say that once I got rid of the stock Pirelli P6 tires the ride improved and it was not so loud. Im not a fan of pirelli ties and never have been. I think you should give a different EOS another try, maybe one that has been broken in. Im not a big fan of buying brand new VW's, get a CPO if anything. On another note...I have owned many cars in my day and I love everything about how the EOS looks, feels, and drives. It think it is very well done. I don't think you could get me to buy a NBC, they are too common and have terrible reliability issues. Ok so VW not known for having the most reliable cars in the fleet, but as an owner of them for 20 years I love the way they make me feel more than how they run. 

Give the EOS another chance...


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## macaddiict (Feb 26, 2003)

Thank you for both of your replies. After I posted this question, it crossed my mind that perhaps it was something with that particular road or the very low miles on the car that made it seem so shudder-y.

I'm definitely buying a 'vert this year - the new car bug has bitten, and weather is already awesome for top down driving here. I think I'll track down a used Eos this weekend to test drive and see if there is a difference.

Thanks again for your replies!

-Stephen


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## astromutt (Feb 17, 2011)

I noticed the same thing with my 2012 Eos. This is my first convertible and I attributed the feeling to it being a convertible as there is no problem with the top up. While it's not too bad, it is noticeable and does go away with the top up. Figured it had to do with the lower aerodynamics with the top down.


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## macaddiict (Feb 26, 2003)

Thanks, astromutt!

I test drove a 2008 last weekend and thought it seemed a lot more planted and less shaky. Definitely not as jarring as I thought the 2011 was. 

I'm still waiting on a local dealer to get a 2012 in stock... I have yet to see one in person, but I think that I will have a hard time holding back once I do. These are some great looking, fun to drive little cars!

-Stephen


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

Yeah, that is NOT normal! I myself am the reverse of everyone else, I've never owned a hardtop car. I only have and only will buy convertibles. One shaking just because the roof is lowered is not normal with any convertible. I've owned old ones and brand new ones and have never found that to be typical! Now if you will excuse me, I have to go pick up my son from school......the sun is shining the waves are sparkling blue and my EOS is dying to go driving to pick up the kiddo (top down of course)!


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## DavidPaul (Nov 28, 2009)

*Cowl Shake*



sapphirexae said:


> Yeah, that is NOT normal! I myself am the reverse of everyone else, I've never owned a hardtop car. I only have and only will buy convertibles. One shaking just because the roof is lowered is not normal with any convertible. I've owned old ones and brand new ones and have never found that to be typical! Now if you will excuse me, I have to go pick up my son from school......the sun is shining the waves are sparkling blue and my EOS is dying to go driving to pick up the kiddo (top down of course)!


Cowl shake with the top down has been normal since the introduction of modern convertibles in the late 40s.

Those models were nothing more than standard hardtops with the metal cut from the roof.

My 1949 Buick Super convertible was perhaps the most unstable car I have ever driven. It had massive cowl shake with the top up or down. It didn't make any difference. I still wish I had that car as a trailer and garage queen. It was a beautiful blue with matching leather seating. All leather, not just the seating surfaces.

My 50 Chrysler Town and Country convertible wasn't a very good driving experience either and it didn't even have leather. Ahhhh, but I digress.

Modern convertibles have far less cowl shake than older models because extra rigidity has been added to the bodies. This adds strength and unfortunately, weight too. For example, my Eos weighs a few hundred pounds more than my CC, VR6

However, even the most modern convertibles still elicit a certain amount of cowl shake, albeit much less. This is the nature of the beast.

In order to totally stop cowl shake, manufacturers would have to add stiff roll bars and add so much weight to the body that these cars would never pass EPA mileage tests.

I don't think they are made for the Eos yet, but a heavy duty, underhood, strut bar, would really help add stiffness. I know it helped my 2004 Cobra hard top.

Previous to my Eos, I owned a 2008 Chrysler Sebring convertible. It is by far the stiffest convertible I have ever driven, but the weight of that vehilce is huge. Mercedes engineered the 08 Sebring Convertibles and added a tremendous amount of structural beams throughout the unibody construction. However, in spite of all that steel, I could still feel a bit of cowl shake with the top down. I had the rag top as opposed to their hard top folder.

I don't claim to know everything there is to know about cars, but I have owned a solid mix of convertibles and hard tops in my 53 years of driving. In fact, 39 vehicles in all.

I think I started being a true automobile aficionado when I was about 10 years old.

If I hadn't wasted so much money on vehicles all my life, I would be a very wealthy man today.


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

"Cowl shake with the top down has been normal since the introduction of modern convertibles in the late 40s". I disagree and hardly think that the cars of the 40's can be thrown under the title of 'modern'. I collect cars for a hobby, in total I am up to 51 vehicles (43 have been open top cars) owned. Although some movement can be normal, especially with 'lesser' cars or older cars. I don't count cowl shake as normal or standard with convertibles at all though.



SIDE NOTE: BTW, a few folks PM'd me and asked if I would post a list of my collection to the forum. So, here ya' go guys.

1998 Acura Integra GS-R

1988 BMW 325i, Convertible

1991 BMW 318i, Convertible

1993 BMW 325i, Convertible

1994 BMW 325i, Convertible

1995 BMW 325i, Convertible

1996 BMW Z3, Roadster

2000 BMW Z3, Roadster

2002 BMW Z3, Roadster

2004 BMW 325ci, Convertible

2004 BMW X3 2.5

2005 BMW X3 3.0

2006 BMW M3, Convertible

1995 Corvette, Targa Top

1981 DeLorean 

1981 DeLorean 

1982 DeLorean

1983 DeLorean

1979 Ferrari 308 GTS, Targa Top

1993 Honda del Sol S, Targa Top

1993 Honda del Sol Si, Targa Top

1997 Honda del Sol S, Targa Top

1997 Honda del Sol S, Targa Top

1991 Lotus Elan, Roadster

2006 Mazda RX8

2003 Mercedes SLK 320, Roadster

1990 Miata, Roadster

1991 Miata, Roadster

1994 Miata M-Edition, Roadster

1995 Miata M-Edition, Roadster

1997 Miata, Roadster

1999 Miata Sport, Roadster

1999 Miata 10AE, Roadster

1999 Miata 10AE, Roadster

1999 Miata 10AE, Roadster

2002 Miata SE, Roadster

2006 Miata, Roadster

2007 Miata Folding Hardtop, Roadster

2006 Mini Cooper S, Convertible

1994 Mercury Capri XR-2, Convertible (what was I thinking)

1970 Porsche 914-6, Targa Top

1976 Porsche 914, Targa Top

1988 Porsche 911 Carrera, Convertible

1991 Porsche 944, Cabriolet

2000 Porsche Boxster, Roadster

2002 Porsche Carrera, Convertible

2004 Porsche Boxster, Roadster

1988 Volkswagen Cabriolet

1993 Volkswagen Cabriolet

1997 Volkswagen Cabrio

2008 Volkswagen EOS


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## DavidPaul (Nov 28, 2009)

sapphirexae said:


> "Cowl shake with the top down has been normal since the introduction of modern convertibles in the late 40s". I disagree and hardly think that the cars of the 40's can be thrown under the title of 'modern'. I collect cars for a hobby, in total I am up to 51 vehicles (43 have been open top cars) owned. Although some movement can be normal, especially with 'lesser' cars or older cars. I don't count cowl shake as normal or standard with convertibles at all though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, in view of your enlightenment, I will have to concede. You win. 

Apparently there is no cowl shake in any of the late model convertibles. Something in my upper body must have loosened up over the past 69 years or I may have suffered brain damage at some point in my life.:screwy:

I'll see a shrink or an Orthopedic surgeon in the morning.

BTW, I could post the list of my vehicles also, but to what purpose? Unless, of course, those same people who privately mailed you will mail me for the same request.


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow, a different opinion then yours equals sarcasm and attitude. Yeah, thats mature and healthy alright. Who cares if a couple folks asked me to make a list. I've had a lot of cars.....big deal.


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## DavidPaul (Nov 28, 2009)

*Back on Subject*



sapphirexae said:


> Wow, a different opinion then yours equals sarcasm and attitude. Yeah, thats mature and healthy alright. Who cares if a couple folks asked me to make a list. I've had a lot of cars.....big deal.


Okay, between the two of us, we have managed to take this great thread totally off subject trying to prove which one of us can piss the farthest. 

Let's just agree to disagree.


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

Sounds like a grand idea. Besides, difference of opinions and experiences makes us all who we are.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks guys...


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## Boosted2003! (Mar 10, 2009)

DavidPaul said:


> Cowl shake with the top down has been normal since the introduction of modern convertibles in the late 40s.
> 
> Those models were nothing more than standard hardtops with the metal cut from the roof.
> 
> ...


 Very well said about the 2008 Sebring. My mom has one. I find it quite a bit stiffer chassis then EOS. I drive VW's quite a bit. I find going over speed bumps or concrete ramps leading up into a garage at an angle you can really tell the EOS chassis is flexing. 

I really think an additional under body bracing could help the EOS out. The front underbody panel is a medal pan that does help with body flex but not enough. Upper strut mount would be good but it would have to be able to go under the front cowl panel.


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## liquid stereo (Feb 26, 2003)

Consider this - the roof is not a structural element in the sense that its not load bearing. Look at the way it connects to the body and its quite clear. What does this mean? Well, if there is in fact a shudder/thud, or some such noise, with the top down then its just a matter of the roof panels being "in the trunk".





macaddiict said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I test drove a 2011 Eos yesterday. Only 28 miles on the odometer, so it hadn’t been taken out much at all. The car that made me want a ‘vert of my own in the first place is a friend’s 2003 Beetle Convertible. That thing is SUCH a blast to drive (albeit, slow and not the best brakes). The thing that shocked me most about her NBC was how super solid feeling and sturdy it feels on our terrible Oklahoma roads.
> 
> ...


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## DavidPaul (Nov 28, 2009)

*I'm Not Getting Sucked Into This One Again.*

No way, no how.


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