# Water/meth (does it make power or not) searched



## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

yes i searched, didnt feel like reading a million pointless 1.8t threads
the next buy is going to be water/meth....thats if i hear what i want to hear. 
*does it actually make power?* 
current set-up is
10.5:1 compression
vortech v-2 
9psi pulley, making 11psi at 7k (3.125 pulley)
TT 268
high flow intake manifold
genie header 
c-2 42lb new software
i know during the summer it will keep the power consistant when the car gets warm. but i dont know if im going to stick on a smaller pulley yet. 
i live in PA so its only real hot during the summer and i know with it i can keep the intake manifold temp down alot too. 
i searched and i didnt feel like reading a million install threads. its not that hard to install it. 
and i want to get the basic kit without the controller cause unlike a turbo i wont be running high boost and i dont have a completely lead foot. 
pictures of the death trap in question.


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: Water/meth (does it make power or not) searched (punk rock kiel)*

The only way it makes more power is because it allows you to run more boost, not nessocery for your setup imo.


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: Water/meth (The Yoda)*

it cools the intake charge, thus allowing you to run more timing safely.... this is how it "makes" power. think of it fine tuning the power you already have. so the answer is yes, sort-of....








and for an SC'd VR, it would benefit even more, due to the lack of intercooler.... so definitely worth a shot for you. over winter, i am gonna take out the snow kit from my drag rabbit and put it into my mk3 SC'd VR GTI....


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (speeding-g60)*

so in a round about way its a huge grey area. 
a stock bottom end on 10.5:1 compression can only see 17lbs of boost before problems arise. 
i prolly wont run more than 13 max cause pulley slip and crap like that can be an issue. 
so yes looks like a positive answer towards it. cause it helps a little and saves my motor in the long run. 
*which kit would be better for my goals??*
i am thinking the base kit cause i will tune it for the right nozzle that does the best and pressure (you can adjust the pump pressure correct?)
i plan to daily drive the car. but i work 3 blocks from home so the car does last 2 weeks on a tank of gas even tho i only see 300 miles to a tank at my best right now.


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*

stg 2 kit from snow..... your best bet hands down is to get ahold of scott @ USRT. [email protected] is his screenname....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2212397
there is a ton of info in this thread, even though it is closed now....


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## need a vdub (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Water/meth (speeding-g60)*

Yes use scotts kit. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
COOLER AIR=MORE POWER


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*

kiel - ive got the devils own system on my car, wiring it today. since we are non intercooled, it will help keep temps down, and allow our chips to push the timing a little. its wont make any power on its own, its not nitrous. 
my plan was to dyno with and without it on, and see the differences, but im unsure if ill make it back to the dyno in time. 
btw - i ordered a 2.87 6rib vortech pulley, and started using contitech 6pk 1538 belts. the belts dont stretch as much and look quality made. pulley will be here soon, figured id replace my c2 one since its got some bent fins.
p.s. - blower was rebuilt, upgraded bearings and seals - its silent except for the straight cut gears http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (-THROTTLE-)*

the snow kit is just a bunch of hype. thats why i rather go with the devils own kit. 
1. it costs less
2. it actually comes with a syphon valve
those are the 2 things that sold me on it. i dont know if the pump pressure is adjustable like the snow kit. so you can play with nozzle size and pump pressure. 
can you adjust pump pressure on devils own kits?


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## crazysccrmd (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_
can you adjust pump pressure on devils own kits? 

ive got the DO basic kit right now, and as far as i know you can adjust pump pressure. you can change nozzle size and you can change the base boost pressure that the pump turns on at, but thats it. you should buy the DO basic kit and the snow performance vc-25 variable controller. its cheaper than either of the DO or SP stg 2 kits and better. the vc-25 allows you to set a start boost pressure and a full spray boost pressure, so it starts spraying at 5psi and linearly increases to full nozzle capacity until it reaches 11psi


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (crazysccrmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crazysccrmd* »_
ive got the DO basic kit right now, and as far as i know you can adjust pump pressure. you can change nozzle size and you can change the base boost pressure that the pump turns on at, but thats it. you should buy the DO basic kit and the snow performance vc-25 variable controller. its cheaper than either of the DO or SP stg 2 kits and better. the vc-25 allows you to set a start boost pressure and a full spray boost pressure, so it starts spraying at 5psi and linearly increases to full nozzle capacity until it reaches 11psi

i talked to a dude and will prolly buy the Devils Own with controller from him. 
i was just checking cause no where it says you can adjust the pump pressure with the devils own kit. it did with the snow kit. 
i will prolly have it come on at 3psi and set the max above my highest psi a lb or two so im not maxing out the pump but its following the boost as it raises also. then i just need to adjust nozzles. (tips from a dude)
once i get 3in exhaust i will go to the dyno. ill prolly wire it all up and make it work and have an on/off power switch to just kill it for the time being. but ready to go down the road. 
-throttle- let me know how it goes and post some pictures where you tap into if you didnt get the adapter plate from 20 Squared. 
also, before and after dyno run charts would help alot. ill get some too when i get there. i wanna try a few different things. like getting the car to 210 water temp and trying a run or two. make the car hot and see what it does. 


_Modified by punk rock kiel at 8:27 PM 11-10-2007_


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## crazysccrmd (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*

the stuff works really awesome. after about 1.5hrs of hard freeways driving (runs up to 150+mph with the other vrt's) my manifold was cold to the touch. my IAT are usually around 43* when in boost with meth spraying, compared to my friend's intercooled vrt which is around 45*. im running 11psi on stock compression btw


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*

kiel - from what i can see you can NOT adjust pressure on the pump, just the nozzles in the fitting that you put in your intake tube or whatever you plan on doing. i tried the 20squared plate with my DO kit, and it does not work. its tapped for a nitrous nozzle, but not the meth nozzle. nitrous nozzles get screwed in from outside in, whereas the DO kit gets screwed from inside out. 
ill get pics for you, dont know when ill get to the dyno though.
just ordered a vortech pulley and installed my inline fuel pump, so ill see how it does soon enough.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (-THROTTLE-)*

from what a dude said, you can adjust the flow pressure on the devils own pump. its the same pump as the snow kit he said. 
so you can pick a nozzle size and then fine tune it from there. 
i was going to tap into the manifold after the throttle body cause the piping in my kit doesnt fit that great. 
*maybe someone can chime in...ive seen a picture of the less than mist the snow or devils kits give off.....would you chance a wet shot of nitrous along with that?????*


_Modified by punk rock kiel at 8:28 PM 11-10-2007_


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## sitinchair (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_the snow kit is just a bunch of hype. thats why i rather go with the devils own kit. 
1. it costs less
2. it actually comes with a syphon valve


93
Many more people have used the snow kit. While most have had good experience with devil's own, I was not one of them. The DO controller is a very nice piece though.
93 93/93


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (sitinchair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sitinchair* »_
93
Many more people have used the snow kit. While most have had good experience with devil's own, I was not one of them. The DO controller is a very nice piece though.
93 93/93

what issues did you have? kit related or car related?


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## sitinchair (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*

93
Kit related. The kit only worked for two days(not at first-random days). A simple test determined that even though the pump worked(was making noise) and alky was getting to it, nothing was coming out. D.O. stated that the pump had defective seals. It was either shipped out this way or could'nt handle 100% meth as they advertise(I'm inclined to think the former as the pump did'nt work on the very first day). Regardless, they told me to ship out the pump in exchange for a new/fixed pump. After a month or so and no response, I inquired about the new pump and they claimed that I was in luck and they sent it out the day prior. Wait...wait.. wait.. no pump. Never recieved it and I ended up selling my controller and just running 1/2 race gas. I never got back to them. 
I can see people asking why, and why did'nt I just ask for a tracking # and such. Perhaps I should have, but in all honesty at that time I was very disgruntled at the whole performance aftermarket and just gave up. Like I said, most people have good experience with d.o. Their controller is the poop and their forum is rather helpful. It's just that my luck with their kit was'nt so good. The absolute best injection kit on the market(at least it was a while ago when I used to reasearch this stuff) is the Julio Don alkycontrol kit. However, they cater mostly to gn's and are expensive. Choose wisely, as a failed injection kit could = boom boom. I was just lucky that my stuff did'nt work from the getgo instead of failing down the road.
93 93/93


_Modified by sitinchair at 11:12 PM 11-11-2007_


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (sitinchair)*

that does suck. i kinda figured it wasnt completely kit related as to it was junk. its the same type of pump as the snow kits but with better seals to handle the 100% meth. 
the reason its called water/meth is cause your suppose to run a 50/50 mix and not straight meth. if you needed 100%, you needed more than this.


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## brew city (Aug 3, 2007)

dude water meth would be perfect for you high compression supercharged... non intercooled...not letting you run high psi before you see detonation... well with water meth it retards timing and its like running 104 octane race gas all the time...so you can run high psi w/ out detonation...plus it makes ur car runn cooler


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (brew city)*

Gotta agree, you are a prime candidate for this....done right, the claims are "race gas octane". Which any stock VW bottom end over 10psi needs. The limits to the improvement you will see are the limits of your software's willingness to increase ignition advance to the detonation threshold.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

I'm considering this as well as I'm seeing 11.5 psi w/ stock compression 10:1 non-IC. I think I'm getting away w/ it due to an 11:1 A/F ratio, cold ambient temps, and running 93 octane. I'm leaning towards a FMIC though as it's less maintenance, no parts to wear or break, and you are increasing the density of the air w/out adding water vapor to it which robs a little power. The Meth will prevent detonation and let you run full timing though.


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (slc92)*

I had the DO base kit (killer deal!) then I just bought the snow controller for $100 because it was simpler to install / use than the DO kit. 
I love it! I run 11-12 psi stock comp nonintercooled kinetic stage 1. On my old turbo, old c2 software, and 2.5" dp I dyno'd 297 whp and 321 wtq at 11-12 psi. Now I have a c2 update, 3" dp, and bigger turbo. I have managed to run a 13.5 @ 108 on fat fives with fuzion zri's and I know I can do much much better.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (VR6OOM)*

a stock motor can handle up to around 17psi. which is next to impossible to hit with a charger and not run into some kinda belt slip. 
so ill stay at the higher compression and put water/meth on and use the windshield washer bottle as the fill. i have a relocated battery also, so i got plenty of room right on the frame horn. 
i dont need it right now but im going to get it and install it and just put an on/off switch cause its way cold enough and my car bearly gets above 165 water or oil temp unless i let it warm up.


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## volkswagengeek (Dec 17, 2004)

I have the devilsown kit running on my vr6t, my a/f's are where they need to be now, and I was able to run 4 more lbs of boost.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (volkswagengeek)*

you can just turn the boost up if the turbo can make it. 
for any charger guy, i dont think its worth it to lower the compression unless someone can make a cogged set-up thats cheap to make above 15psi.


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (does it make power or not) searched (punk rock kiel)*

i can't beleive i missed this thread. 


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_
*does it actually make power?*


fast answer: NO.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Water/meth (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_i can't beleive i missed this thread. 
fast answer: NO. 


haha. 
for running non intercooled and low boost on 10.5:1 compression, all its mainly for is to keep things cool and keep my motor in one piece.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Water/meth (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_
haha. 
for running non intercooled and low boost on 10.5:1 compression, all its mainly for is to keep things cool and keep my motor in one piece. 
.

keeps the engine clean as hell inside as well... we pulled the intake pipe off my friend stage 1.something off and looked inside, the TB and intake look litterally NEW. I'd love to see the combustion chambers and valves. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## memoryred gti (Oct 24, 2002)

is that goes to aba 2.0l too ?
i like the idea of the W/I and no I/C
for 15psi...


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (memoryred gti)*

kiel - buy the kit, install it, and enjoy it. weve got 3 guys in the club running the DO kit, and they all love it.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (-THROTTLE-)*


_Quote, originally posted by *-THROTTLE-* »_kiel - buy the kit, install it, and enjoy it. weve got 3 guys in the club running the DO kit, and they all love it.

oh i will. once i get 3in exhaust and water/meth tuned in right then its on to figure out the nitrous. 
im still undecided about it. running a single shot wet or a 6 fogger low shot. 
i just dont know about that much fluid going through the intake manifold, water/meth, nitrous, and fuel 
ill make another post on that later near spring time. not really itching to use it but want to since it came on the car and i installed a 2nd bottle.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

35shot would be nice thru a single nozzle with the boost. anymore and you may be pushing the internals too far. i ran a 75 and 100shot thru a single nozzle, no issues...


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (-THROTTLE-)*


_Quote, originally posted by *-THROTTLE-* »_35shot would be nice thru a single nozzle with the boost. anymore and you may be pushing the internals too far. i ran a 75 and 100shot thru a single nozzle, no issues...

with the charger and water/meth?
right now its a 70 shot dry. (nitrous only)


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

ive seen 35shot with a s/c, no meth. meth has only come into the vw scene as of late...like, its booming all of a sudden. id worry about your internals stressing, thats all...btw - you have a pm


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (-THROTTLE-)*

so does it being a dry kit and having different injectors and such mess with anything?? cause dry shot ups the fuel pressure to add the needed fuel. 
id run something like a 35 shot cause it would help cool the intake also. 
i would need to do some looking to figure out what jet size that is tho. im sure its smaller than anything i have.


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_I'm considering this as well as I'm seeing 11.5 psi w/ stock compression 10:1 non-IC. I think I'm getting away w/ it due to an 11:1 A/F ratio, cold ambient temps, and running 93 octane. I'm leaning towards a FMIC though as it's less maintenance, no parts to wear or break, and you are increasing the density of the air w/out adding water vapor to it which *robs a little power*. The Meth will prevent detonation and let you run full timing though.

whats with you and the 'water vapor robs power' bs?








do a back to back comparo with ANY water/meth system and an air-to-air i/c and the water/meth will ALWAYS make more power. 
you're killing me bro.


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (punkrider99)*

btw devils own is pretty crappy. the system depends on an external check valve which reduces flow by a large amount. because the system modulates the pump (pressure) you're essentially losing max output and control. the snow kit doesn't have a check valve because one isn't need. 
snows the way to go. those guys are vw guys anyways. the tech guys really know their stuff. has anyone ever tried getting tech support from devils own?


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: Water/meth (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_i can't beleive i missed this thread. 
fast answer: NO. 


why don't you give us the slow answer. i guess all the guys on here picking up 20-30-40 horse are lying.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

Stock bottom end w/ 10.5:1 cannot handle 17psi... you could with a stock bottom end and 8.5:1 though. where did you hear you could run that much boost on a stock motor? Even with an intercooler you would probably only be able to run 14 max atleas thats what i have heard about a turbo setup, but i couldnt immagine a supercharger setup being much different, because it still compresses the air and makes it hot. (however i do realize the heat soak differance between turbos and superchargers, but that couldnt possibly make up for a max of 7 psi differance between the two...)


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## memoryred gti (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (memoryred gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *memoryred gti* »_is that goes to aba 2.0l too ?
i like the idea of the W/I and no I/C
for 15psi...


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (memoryred gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *memoryred gti* »_









Running a DO kit on my ABF car, ran fine. Now also installed on my NA 2.0L... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Stock bottom end w/ 10.5:1 cannot handle 17psi... you could with a stock bottom end and 8.5:1 though. where did you hear you could run that much boost on a stock motor? Even with an intercooler you would probably only be able to run 14 max atleas thats what i have heard about a turbo setup, but i couldnt immagine a supercharger setup being much different, because it still compresses the air and makes it hot. (however i do realize the heat soak differance between turbos and superchargers, but that couldnt possibly make up for a max of 7 psi differance between the two...)

us supercharged guys see max boost at almost redline...turbo guys see it way earlier, and produce it til redline usually, which means more stress sooner. i see 14psi daily on my vr, non intercooled, and no issues.


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## sitinchair (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABF Jeff* »_
Running a DO kit on my ABF car, ran fine. Now also installed on my NA 2.0L... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

93
Wow, an n/a injection setup, quite rare! So are you running some crazy timing or compression or something?
Btw, this topic is really very diverse. As with all ai discussion, I can see this topic soon heading over into the endless meth vs mix vs water debate. It really does depend on application and as soon as new variables are introduced, the ideal setup changes. Fact of the matter is, when done properly, injection CAN make more power without adding boost, and CAN allow more boost to be run. Yet, just slapping a kit on may actually reduce power if one does'nt up the timing or take out petrol, even when charge temps drop.
93 93/93


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (sitinchair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_
snows the way to go. tech guys really know their stuff. 

100 %!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_i guess all the guys on here picking up 20-30-40 horse are lying.

YES. their car was pulling enough timing to hinder their #'s that much. not to be a dick, but do research on it. 

_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_ Even with an intercooler you would probably only be able to run 14 max atleas thats what *i have heard *about a turbo setup

avoid the people you are hearing things from bro. seriously. 

_Quote, originally posted by *sitinchair* »_
Fact of the matter is, when done properly, injection CAN make more power without adding boost

horribly misleading!!!!!!!!!!!! and partially incorrect. 
*METHANOL INJECTION AND WATER INJECTION WILL ONLY MAKE POWER GAINS BY THEM SELVES IF YOUR TUNING IS RETARDING TIMING OR YOUR IAT'S ARE SOOOOOO BAD THAT IT BANDAIDS THE POOR TUNING. 
I HAVE SEEN 70 WHP COME ON WITH THE FLICK OF THE METH SWITCH, BUT THE MOTOR DIDN'T "FIND" THIS POWER, IT WAS INTENTIONALLY HOLDING IT BACK DUE TO TIMING PULL. *
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3426278


_Modified by mikemcnair at 10:11 PM 11-14-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Stock bottom end w/ 10.5:1 cannot handle 17psi...

People have done that on C16 and an FMU.


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Paul knows his ish







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## seL (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: (punkrider99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_btw devils own is pretty crappy. the system depends on an external check valve which reduces flow by a large amount. because the system modulates the pump (pressure) you're essentially losing max output and control. the snow kit doesn't have a check valve because one isn't need. 
snows the way to go. those guys are vw guys anyways. the tech guys really know their stuff. has anyone ever tried getting tech support from devils own? 

Why is the DO kit crappy? How does it differ from any other kit out there? Every kit out there uses the exact same Shurflo 8030 Series pump. Fittings are fittings, jets are jets, and line is line. The only difference between the DO kit and anything else is that you don't get fancy controllers or sensors, but you also don't spend $300 or more for the kit.
The DO kit is perfect for anyone who knows what they are doing and wants a simple setup. A few wires, 2 lines, 1 nozzle and a pressure switch to set for when you want the meth to kick in. Since when is simple crappy? With sensors and controllers there is just more to go wrong and more to have to play with. Get a wideband, a DO kit and call it a day. You shouldn't be using meth injection without a wideband anyways, as it's not a matter of just installing the meth and turning up the boost. If the meth comes on too soon you will actually lose power.
DO FTW! 
I have never had to use DO tech support or any meth tech support so I can't comment on it.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (seL)*

wow this turned into a pissing match real quick. 
first off, a turbo guy has tested stock compression on his car and it held 17psi for a little while and blew up on the dyno. *thats where i heard that from*
2nd, plenty of charger guys have seen 12 or more psi easy and no intercooler without problems. we dont make 12psi from 4 grand on, we only see that at 6-7 grand, so its alot less stress on the motor and it isnt a "kick" when it hits too. 
its called water/meth for a reason, this isnt going to turn into a mythbusters episode cause you run 50/50. not just water or just meth or water and winterized windsheild washer fluid (35/65) mix. 
what would you need customer service for? follow the instructions. both pumps are exactly the same (so ive been told the DO kit has better seals to be able to use 100% meth). DO has a new and improved syphon check valve. the kit is cheaper than snow with or without the controller. i know where im getting my kit from, i dont have to worry about customer service. 
you cant buy a snow kit and get all the stuff you truely need. DO is everything you need. and electronics can fail quicker than mechanical stuff. 
pulling timing and better iat are what it does to help out the car and up the octane rating for less chance of detonation. 
whether it makes power or not depends on the car and IF its a bandaid to fix another problem you dont wanna fix or dont know about. i dont have any problems....i have a genie header that needs a heat shield and jet hot coating tho. it makes the hood dry in the rain, so im sure its heating my intake up too.


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## volkswagengeek (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (punkrider99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_btw devils own is pretty crappy. the system depends on an external check valve which reduces flow by a large amount. because the system modulates the pump (pressure) you're essentially losing max output and control. the snow kit doesn't have a check valve because one isn't need. 
snows the way to go. those guys are vw guys anyways. the tech guys really know their stuff. has anyone ever tried getting tech support from devils own? 

to each his own I guess. It actually uses a hobbs switch that has a dial on it, there is a check valve but its so alcohol doesn't go back up the line. I looked at the snow kit too, the devilsown kit was cheaper, and I got what I was looking for out of it. As for tech support, it very easy to get a whole of the guy who built/ships the kits. I have talked with him many times on aim, through email he is very responsive, and not to mention he is a nice guy too. There is a support forum too.


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## gazoo66 (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: (volkswagengeek)*

Newbie on the meth inject front here. I was having temperature related power problems as described here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3542437
To summarize, when it's hot ( I live in FL) the car is worse than stock. When it's cold, it's NIIICCEEEE!
The guys on those threads recommended the injection method because they said I had heat soak something awful. I have an almost extremely stock setup compared to you guys (you guys are customizing fiends). Passat 2001.5, upsolute chip, stock intercooler and stock everything else, THAT'S IT!
I was reading about the coolingmist system, but it's a boost trigger on/off type thing..is that a crappy route to go? I'm not really wanting to spend more than $300 for this if it can be avoided.
Also, I think I get the general concept except for the following questions:
1) Where does the injector get drilled into? Does it HAVE TO BE right on the throttle body or maf or whatever? That scares me a bit..will shavings get in there? Is there another way to do this like getting a small connector pipe inline and drilling into that before the tb, etc.?
2) What do you put in the tank? water + isopropyl alcohol? water only? Something else?
3) Where do I tap the boost pressure from? Remember I have a Passat. It seems like everyone else has Jetta's or older Passats here.
4) Do I trunk mount or engine mount everything?
5) How much liquid is used up in a given week? I'm a leadfoot too, FYI.
Passat install pictures would be nice, but I think I have as much a chance of seeing that as winning the lotto..
Sorry for the n00bness again, but I thought everything would be fine after the chip, but it sounds like I need more now


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (gazoo66)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gazoo66* »_Newbie on the meth inject front here. I was having temperature related power problems as described here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3542437
To summarize, when it's hot ( I live in FL) the car is worse than stock. When it's cold, it's NIIICCEEEE!
The guys on those threads recommended the injection method because they said I had heat soak something awful. I have an almost extremely stock setup compared to you guys (you guys are customizing fiends). Passat 2001.5, upsolute chip, stock intercooler and stock everything else, THAT'S IT!
*1.8t i take it?*
I was reading about the coolingmist system, but it's a boost trigger on/off type thing..is that a crappy route to go? I'm not really wanting to spend more than $300 for this if it can be avoided.
Also, I think I get the general concept except for the following questions:
1) Where does the injector get drilled into? Does it HAVE TO BE right on the throttle body or maf or whatever? That scares me a bit..will shavings get in there? Is there another way to do this like getting a small connector pipe inline and drilling into that before the tb, etc.?
*they actually have adapter plates for the 1.8t guys so you can unbolt the throttle body and install the plate. i found alot more 1.8t owners were running it when i tried a search, you might get flamed for that*
2) What do you put in the tank? water + isopropyl alcohol? water only? Something else?
*50/50 distilled water and methonal, no excuses, dont use anything else, thats why its called water/meth, not water/alcohol, winterized windshield washer fluid, just water, none of that crap*
3) Where do I tap the boost pressure from? Remember I have a Passat. It seems like everyone else has Jetta's or older Passats here.
*somewhere in the manifold. youll prolly have to pull the manifold off and get technical here with cleaning out the metal shavings.*
4) Do I trunk mount or engine mount everything?
*who ever thinks mounting it in the trunk has been drinking. im sure the pump isnt quiet. plus you have to rely on the pump to push the fluid all the way through the line to the front of the car. it just doesnt hold pressure in the line. (i could be wrong here but trunk idea is bad)*
5) How much liquid is used up in a given week? I'm a leadfoot too, FYI.
*one fill of the windsheild washer bottle (mk3) i heard can last 3 tanks of gas. no use pushing a stock 1.8t all the itme*
Passat install pictures would be nice, but I think I have as much a chance of seeing that as winning the lotto..
*any 1.8t is the same as the next. hit up the search in the upper right corner. see what turns up. *
Sorry for the n00bness again, but I thought everything would be fine after the chip, but it sounds like I need more now











dont drive the car until night time. go chill on the beach!


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

http://www.miataturbo.net/forumdisplay.php?f=22
try looking there for real info. 
*not*
-what i heard
-myths
-all the misleading info people have been posting
cant wait to see how it goes when i get off work later. haha


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

injector nozzle can be mounted almost anywhere. read the link i posted above for my thoughts on that, and a pic of my old setup.
the "plates" mentioned are a good idea as well, but a matter of preferance. i do like them though. 
trunk mounting is fine, the pump stayes primed all the time, as do the lines. (unless you run out and "air lock" the pump. 
vacuum source can be the FPR if you want, or the manifold, or the WG line, basically any GOOD source of vacuum. no drilling needed. 
water/meth, 50/50, 100/0 etc are all based upon your individual needs/tune. there is no "perfect" answer to that. 
frequency of filling the meth tank depends upon so many factors (ie boost run, ammount of time in boost, nozzle, pump psi, size of reservoir, etc) that one cannot simply say it takes "x" number of fill ups per meth tank. 
i have a 5 qt meth tank, and have had it last 4 hours, or 3 weeks. the day it went in 4 hours was a fun one though










_Modified by mikemcnair at 1:32 PM 11-15-2007_


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (seL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seL* »_
Why is the DO kit crappy? How does it differ from any other kit out there? Every kit out there uses the exact same Shurflo 8030 Series pump. Fittings are fittings, jets are jets, and line is line. The only difference between the DO kit and anything else is that you don't get fancy controllers or sensors, but you also don't spend $300 or more for the kit.
The DO kit is perfect for anyone who knows what they are doing and wants a simple setup. A few wires, 2 lines, 1 nozzle and a pressure switch to set for when you want the meth to kick in. Since when is simple crappy? With sensors and controllers there is just more to go wrong and more to have to play with. Get a wideband, a DO kit and call it a day. You shouldn't be using meth injection without a wideband anyways, as it's not a matter of just installing the meth and turning up the boost. If the meth comes on too soon you will actually lose power.
DO FTW! 
I have never had to use DO tech support or any meth tech support so I can't comment on it.









maybe if you re-read my post you'll see that i mentioned the fact that they use an external check valve that reduces output pressure, operational pressure, and flow. also going non-progressive is a joke.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*

*i have a 5 qt meth tank, and have had it last 4 hours, or 3 weeks. the day it went in 4 hours was a fun one though







*
theres your answer lead footed people. 
i didnt know if everything stays primed. that is good to know. 
*how loud is the pump? *(lets people get an idea on where to mount it)
you could spend a whole day on that link but i only like pictures.


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_ 
what would you need customer service for? 

apparently you've never had an issue with any of the aftermarket products you've ever used. customer service gets very important when you've got something that doesn't work or when you're using something you've never used before... oh wait, just follow the directions 'cause that'll answer every possible question you might have.


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (punkrider99)*

the pumps are really quiet.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (punkrider99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_
apparently you've never had an issue with any of the aftermarket products you've ever used. customer service gets very important when you've got something that doesn't work or when you're using something you've never used before... oh wait, just follow the directions 'cause that'll answer every possible question you might have.









my customer service is going to be waiting by AIM when i need him. 
i also plan to give some actual feed back and tests to show the difference before and after tuning with a hot and cold car.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (sitinchair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sitinchair* »_
93
Wow, an n/a injection setup, quite rare! So are you running some crazy timing or compression or something?


It's a snow stage 2 kit, maf controlled... I am running decent compression 11.5:1, but with the custom chip I'm getting, I'll need the detonation control.


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## gazoo66 (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: (punkrider99)*

So, for my 1.8T with chip, do you guys recommend the "basic kit" which is boost pressure activated? I don't know if I would need the progressive one since the chip only claims like 205HP or something. 
Also, spraying the stock SMIC with water, is that gonna buy me anything?


_Modified by gazoo66 at 8:08 PM 11-15-2007_


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## volkswagengeek (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (punkrider99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_
also going non-progressive is a joke.

explain this please?


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (volkswagengeek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gazoo66* »_
Also, spraying the stock SMIC with water, is that gonna buy me anything?


read the link i posted in here, top of this page. 

_Quote, originally posted by *volkswagengeek* »_
explain this please?

imagine hitting boost and your fuel dumping as much as it can, instead of the ECU slowly ramping the fuel up for demand. same concept. the progressive controller is just that: progressive. it ramps up the W/M spray based upon load/demand so as to not just "flood" the cylinders every time you mash the throttle.


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_imagine hitting boost and your fuel dumping as much as it can, instead of the ECU slowly ramping the fuel up for demand. same concept. the progressive controller is just that: progressive. it ramps up the W/M spray based upon load/demand so as to not just "flood" the cylinders every time you mash the throttle. 


PERFECT explanation! glad to see someone is driven by function and not just getting the cheapest piece of **** available. lets expand upon this further:
do you drive using an on-off throttle switch? does you turbo make boost in an on-off fashion? do you fuel injectors inject in an on-off manner? 
answers: no, no, and nope.
so why would you use a secondary injection system that is on-off? NOTHING on your car is on-off. unless you drive around at wot and max boost and max injector duty cycle i don't really think you want a simple on-off system.
consider this: lets say you make 20 psi of boost. now lets say you have a simple on-off injection system. when the system comes on it injects 300 ml/min of 50/50 water/methanol. think you can inject all that fluid at once at 5 psi? how about 8 psi? fact of the matter is that there isn't enough heat or airflow (engine load) below probably 10 psi to support that much additional fluid in the combustion chamber. so what about the detonation suppresant and cooling at low boost? this is where progressive systems reign king.
now consider this: lets say you still make 20 psi of boost. with a progressive system you can starting injecting a small amount of fluid at low boost and then as boost pressure increases the injection rate increases along with it. imagine that!! better driveability and more benefit across the entire power curve!! wow! technology is cool!!
who was the genius that said an electronically controlled system is just another potential point of failure? that sounds like a lame excuse and a poor atempt to justify your purchase of a crappy on-off system. if you're so worried about electronically controlled systems failing why the hell are you driving an efi volkswagen? 
pulse width modulation pump drivers are very simple devices and when used correctly provide EXCELLENT injection management.


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (punkrider99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkrider99* »_pulse width modulation pump drivers are very simple devices and when used correctly provide EXCELLENT injection management. 

you forgot to mention VERY simple technology that fails VERY infrequently








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*

I will add my $.02
I have Snow kits on my TDI Jetta and VRT Jetta and both help a lot. It feels as if the power comes in sooner and gives you the sensation the turbo spools up faster, although its not. The power hits much harder as well once the turbo is spooled and hits full boost. I have yet to dyno either car to prove this but I do know that I have traction problems in both cars where I previously didn't


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## sitinchair (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_
horribly misleading!!!!!!!!!!!! and partially incorrect. 
*METHANOL INJECTION AND WATER INJECTION WILL ONLY MAKE POWER GAINS BY THEM SELVES IF YOUR TUNING IS RETARDING TIMING OR YOUR IAT'S ARE SOOOOOO BAD THAT IT BANDAIDS THE POOR TUNING. 
I HAVE SEEN 70 WHP COME ON WITH THE FLICK OF THE METH SWITCH, BUT THE MOTOR DIDN'T "FIND" THIS POWER, IT WAS INTENTIONALLY HOLDING IT BACK DUE TO TIMING PULL. *

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3426278

_Modified by mikemcnair at 10:11 PM 11-14-2007_

93
No!! It is possible, especially with straight meth when going from a proper tune to another proper tune on the same boost. People do'nt run increased timing or a different fuel curve with injection because they simply can, they do it because it is necessary to compensate for the decreased combustion effeciency brought about by injection. Here is what I wrote on the topic for another forum on fluid selection that touches on this topic:
To start, it is best to discuss the 2 extremes:
Straight water- To be brief, straight water will work best on non-intercooled setups, using as small a nozzle as possible mounted just after the turbo outlet(or pre-turbo for the more daring). Although water has the potential to remove more heat, it is far slower in doing so than methanol. Therefore, you want to allow as much time as possible for the conversion to steam, at the hottest point of the charge. Though good atomization is very important for any injection, it is moreso for water to take advantage of it's cooling attributes as well as prevent suspension dropout. It is also absolutely essential for a motor to be tuned for any sort of injection to take advantage of it. Slap on a water kit on the same boost, and you'll likely make less power, even with the reduced IAT's. Why? Because you significantly reduce the EGT's and decrease flammability. You can crank up the boost without getting detonation but you would still be selling yourself short with a very inefficient combustion process. Therefore, it is essential to increase timing and tune the afr to keep the EGT in line. Water is far less forgiving when it comes to oversizing a nozzle. I remember reading about a mustang person with a kenne-bell charger running some decent boost. Even though this is a big motor, he made the most power by using a tiny 2gph nozzle using straight water. 
Straight meth- Take a look at all the fastest turbo buicks, supras, and v8 cars running injection and what do you see? 100% meth without fail. This is not due to ignorance of other ways, but simply because it just works FAR better in big engined cars. On the race cars that run meth as a fuel, they can get away with absurd amounts of boost and compression. Most people think that this is because meth has a higher octane than race gas, which is simply false. Meth has an octane rating of 99! You cannot compare gas to alky. For example, the addage "lean is mean" is only so because gas has a very low flammability limit. With a meth car, rich is mean because far more energy is added while still retaining flammability, as meth has a rich flammability ratio. So, back on the subject of auxillary injection, one can dump a lot of meth in the chamber without diluting the spark. While water does it's best work in the charge pipe, meth does it's work in the chamber. Therefore, with meth, you can inject close to the throttle body as the cooling energy transfer is much quicker than water. It's also better for an intercooled car because it does'nt need the high heat for conversion as does water. As you can see, the more meth you can get away with running, the better. A 25% total fuel volume is ideal. Another benefit of meth is that you can use it as overboost protection by using a big nozzle and prog controller. Another huge benefit(they keep on coming) is that when injecting a lot of meth there is a lot of added exhaust energy, even with low egt's, so that spoolup from point of injection to max boost is quicker. Too much however, and you lose flammability, creating a bog. But remember, meth is far more forgiving in this regard than water, so 20-30% volume is ideal with the proper tune. This is also where a prog controller is so helpful. Thing with meth is that you need a pump that can handle it. Only then can you use it to effect obviously. Again a tune for proper timing and afr is essential to maximize chamber efficiency for the most power without detonation. 
mix- Well, most people run a mix to good effect. It combines both the best and worst attributes of the previously mentioned liquids. It'll work good with an intercooler and the benefits of meth are experienced. You can also use up to 50% meth(remember: % is measured by weight, not volume) on any pump that I am aware of without risk of damage. I do'nt really need to say more on this other than the water will start to decrease flammability the more that is injected. therefore, as you go up on nozzle size, use a greater meth/water ratio.
Okay, there you have it. Interpret as you will. In short, the best application of each:
Straight water- Small engines. Non intercooled. 3gph(100 psi) max nozzle size.
Mix-Small to medium engines. Intercooled or not. 5gph max nozzle size.
Meth- Medium to large engines. Intercooled. As large a nozzle for the tune without bog.
I guess ethanol shares similar benefits with meth, but I'm not certain as to it's flammability limit. Some daring people have added hydrogen peroxide and nitromethane to their mix for oxygenation, but we'll not go into that here. Not for the faint of heart and nitrous is far more predictable anyway.
93 93/93


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (punkrider99)*

Found this post by my buddy Phill at BSH and the tests on the MKV with dyno charts
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3465713


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (sitinchair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sitinchair* »_
93
No!! It is possible, especially with straight meth when going from a proper tune to another proper tune on the same boost. 
93 93/93


so, said "proper tune" will have the same timing retard and/or andvance? then where did this "possible" hp come from? 
i agree with the majority of your post, but let's be real here.....
same timing, tune, boost, fuel= meth/water does nothing but make IAT's consistant.


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## sitinchair (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_
same timing, tune, boost, fuel= meth/water does nothing but make IAT's consistant. 

93
Yes. I think our disagreement in those last posts was due to misunderstanding and we are actually on the same page for the most part.
93 93/93


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## mikemcnair (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (sitinchair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sitinchair* »_
93
Yes. I think our disagreement in those last posts was due to misunderstanding and we are actually on the same page for the most part.
93 93/93

ok, but WTF is this 93 93 93 93 crap?


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## Dr McNugget (Dec 17, 2003)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*

Ok sorry i'm a little late to this thread, witch is one of the more usefull WMI threads i've read. 
WMI is FANTASTIC, i can defintly tell when i've run out. Run 22 psi daily AND i have dyno's to prove it, the first dyno i did was at 20 psi as that was all i was able to run safely, the second is at 23 psi wich is lower then i am able to run. 
McNair can attest to this as he was the reason for me jumping into 
meth and has felt before AND after
Also the smoothness with witch the car runs now is fantastic, you can even see it in the dyno runs.
*BEFORE*








*AFTER*


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (mikemcnair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikemcnair* »_
same timing, tune, boost, fuel= meth/water does nothing but make IAT's consistant. 

the only problem with your statement is that the tune is going to change _by itself_. this is thanks in part to the iat sensor, knock sensor, and o2 sensor. 
motronic engine management is freaking awesome. in fact, when the 1.8t hit the market back in the late 90's it was seriously a good ten years ahead of _anything_ else. it picks up the slightest changes and reacts accordingly. 
so, as the water/meth reduces your iats, the ecu says "hey it's cooler out now so the engine is getting more molecules of oxygen thanks to a denser air charge... injectors, dial in some more fuel!" viola more fuel is added.
then as the water/meth gets into the combustion chamber and provides it's effective increase in octane (93 + 50/50 = 100+) the ecu says "wow all the detonation just went away... let's dial in some more timing advance and starting making some more power!" viola timing added.
and then the o2 sensor tells the ecu "hey ecu, there is less oxygen in the exhaust now so dial back the fuel a bit and lean this sucker out... btw is that methanol i smell?" viola leaner afr.
sorry for the lame story but that's the level i think. so anyways, yes water/methanol will make more power on a modern forced induction efi engine WITHOUT ANY TUNING. don't believe me? do some data logging with a 91/93 octane tune and monitor timing pull. a majority of tunes out there are more aggressive than the octane they're rated for. without the water/meth the ecu is going to be pulling timing. you'll more than likely see a cf of 5-8 depending on the cylinder. flip on the water/meth and see the timing pull go away and timing advance actually get added automatically. 
is it magic you ask? no son, it's modern engine management. welcome to today.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

I thoroughly enjoyed that read


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

well you all seemed to play nice tonight. 
alot of good info and less of the junk myths. 
i mainly started to thread so i can get a positive yes or no and the good and/or the bad about water/meth. and im sure alot of other people have wondered the same and no other posts seem to answer a single question. 
the post about the 2 dyno runs....the first one falls flat into rich. so being a before and after doesnt really show the real effects cause adding water/meth to too much fuel already isnt going to make it any better. 

thats why i wanna do a true before and after with the car running good before i switch on the water/meth. 
i might need an inline pump but im not going to dyno til spring time prolly. ill hook it all up and leave it be cause the car runs cool enough during the winter.


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## Dr McNugget (Dec 17, 2003)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

The reason why it was running rich was the tune itself, it was a tune that wasn't suited quite right as it would start pulling timing way to early. 
The second one the FPR was turned down and didn't pull timing once.
I'm not much use, i just drive it hard and know when it's not running right, tuning, **** that, that's why people get paid to write chips.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Dietbudda)*

Theory is great. Do before and after dyno runs and/or 1/4 mile runs w/ no other changes and see what the numbers say.







If your car was pulling timing then I could see it helping some. If not, I don't see it helping much if you aren't upping boost or increasing timing. Good luck and post your results.



_Modified by slc92 at 6:49 PM 11-16-2007_


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (slc92)*

if it helps a little, i will up the boost. 
i still have nitrous also. another fun adder!


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_if it helps a little, i will up the boost. 
i still have nitrous also. another fun adder! 

V9 here, so no more upping boost for me







I see about 11.5psi so I'll work w/ that for awhile. I'm gonna play w/ fmic, slicks, 100 octane, more weight reduction and better driving and see how far that gets me. Nitrous w/ the SC? HMM


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (slc92)*

you need to upgrade chargers.








nitrous will help cool things down a little more too.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punk rock kiel* »_you need to upgrade chargers.








nitrous will help cool things down a little more too. 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Maybe, but I doubt it. This setup is rock solid reliable, more than enough on the street, and I'll run mid 12's with it next year. If I wan't more for a mainly track car I can't see changing my setup only to run mid/high 11's w/ a V1 or V2. If I ever do it I'm thinking Garrett GT35R or GT40R







. I will however most likely put this kit on my daily. It's just too much fun, as reliable as stock, and doesn't break anything.


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Maybe, but I doubt it. This setup is rock solid reliable, more than enough on the street, and I'll run mid 12's with it next year. If I wan't more for a mainly track car I can't see changing my setup only to run mid/high 11's w/ a V1 or V2. If I ever do it I'm thinking Garrett GT35R or GT40R







. I will however most likely put this kit on my daily. *It's just too much fun, as reliable as stock, and doesn't break anything.* 

youll jinx yourself.


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

I run the Devils Own kit on my turbo vr and only saw a 10whp gain by just turning it on.. I ran 16psi with out meth and made 338whp.. and the ran 16 psi and made 348whp with meth...I have yet to push the limits.. maybe this winter ill shot for 24psi..
Power feels smoother and my IAs are definatly lower... but my AFR is definatly richer than it needs to be..


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (Vdubsolo)*

^ the man that got me to buy my kit...iirc he ran straight meth at times too with zero issues...


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: (-THROTTLE-)*

well i will be getting it now that ill be getting move overtime at work. but overtime helps when your heater core blows out...when you bought the car with it just done! YAY mofo'in YAY


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (punk rock kiel)*

that sucks kiel...especially with snow hittig the ground today - by me anyway. im swapping out headlights right now


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## Autockr989 (Sep 19, 2007)

*Re: (Vdubsolo)*

Vdubsolo: what part of the Jerz you from? I'd def like to see the water/meth kit since i'm on the fence.


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