# Jetta vs Mazda Protege



## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

My mom owns a Mazda Protege and my bro has a Mk4 Jetta and whaaaat a difference. I just drove my moms car and feels like $hit. Suspension feels worn out and just feels rough! They both have 15000 miles and Jetta is soooo much better. Im talking Chevy - Benz difference between the two. I was very surprised how bad Mazda is. Really, I mean my 3 year old B5 with 17s has more comftable ride. Mazda is not solid at all!!! But I guess we all know the difference.
Anyways I just don't see how you can Zooom zooom in that piece of crap!!!
BTW my mom is 50+ and drives like a grandma!


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

I just registerd to ask about prices for Passats and I saw this post. 
First of all I Drive a 2002 Mazda Protege LX 2.0 and a 1999 Mustang GT with a few mods. I bought the Protege as a cheap daily driver that handled well.
What year are the cars you are comparing, and which model?
Yes the Jetta is a better car than a Protege. I know this. It is not questionable. 
You are comparing cars that are in two different classes. The Jetta is around 19-23K and I paid $14,215 for my car with auto, sunroof, alloy wheels, cruise, tilt, and CD player. That is alot cheaper than a Jetta no matter how you look at it. The comparision you are making is like a Tarus to a C320 Mercedes. 
Anyway my Protege will out accelerate and 2.0 jetta. 130hp 135 tq and it only weighs 2400 lbs. Were the Jetta 2.0 has what 120 hp and 130 tq and weighs 3100lbs. I probably get better gas milage too. 
The problem is I would rather have a Jetta than a protege if it was my only car. The 1.8t Jetta and the Passat are what I am looking for to get my wife. I love the way the 1.8t Jetta drives. She likes the Passat. Anyway, I love VW's. My dad is on his 4th Audi and currently drives a 98 A6 Quattro. They are great cars just kind of expensive. The jetta and the protege are not a comparison.
The quote in your sig says that American cars are poop. Name me one VW or Audi that is around 20K that can run with a Mustang or Camaro in performance.


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## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

First of all ,you are wrong! My bros Jetta (Wagon) that weights even more then 3100lbs beat my moms Mazda by one car length. Theres no driver factor since they are both Auto soo....... Jetta is deffinetely faster. Horsepower and torque doesn't mean ish. 
As far as your Us domestics go, well theres a good reason why they cost soo little. Its called quality. Look at your interior and look at Jettas (for example) do you think the rest of your car is made any better. Matter a fact theres not one US car that has better quality interior then a Jetta. 
Anyways Germans would never dare making a vehicle with such a poor quality. Im sure they can ,but they wont. And another reason why German cars cost so much is because of overengineering that goes into them and because most are made over seas. Unlike Us cars and Japanesse cars(90% are made here :thumbdown







).
Also Us cars are made to accelerate fast. So if you think your car is so fast then take it on a highway with a chipped 1.8t and you will get woooped. I've seen it done and even drove a Stang against 1 too. Yea, off the line you will kill it ,but you better do that with double the cylinders and almost triple the displacement. And name one US car thats not a V8 thats fast. Theres none. 
Take it as you want it ,its just a personal preference.


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## allan r (Dec 30, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Suspension feels worn out and just feels rough! 
[HR][/HR]​the MP3 runs a 70.2 slalom, according to road&track's best handling road/track car (i think 6/02). what did the jetta run again? oh, yeah, they didn't test it. the MP3 was the only front driver, (for reason that it just handles sooo well) and hung on the a$$es of a Z06, M3, 911TT, Boxter S, EVO IV, Elise, and 360M. Beat a few in some categories, too.
Good read, it was. The MP3 took last place overall, but right behind the M3. Elise was 2nd and Ferarri was 1st.


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## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

Mp3 has different suspension components and I don't believe what any mag says. Read some of their articles, most are just plain pathetic. 0-60 , slalom etc are just mag stats and dont mean crap. THe most important is THE DRIVER!!!


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

You still haven't said which model Jetta and Protege they are. If you take the Base mobel Protege with the 1.6 vs. the 1.8t or V6 Jetta then yes I can see that the Jetta would win. Put the 2.0 auto Jetta Vs. the 2.0 Protege and the Protege will win. By how much I don't know, depends on the driver. There is some skill required in launching an Auto. (Power Braking the trans). You still don't get my point. The protege and the jetta are in different classes. I paid 6-10K less for my protege than you can get a Jetta for. 
And if you think a stock turboed 1.8T will walk away from My Mustang then bring it. Now if you spend 2K on the K04 turbo swap and then add bigger injectors, exhaust ect. You might have a chance. I ran the 1/4 mile stock at 14.0 at 99mph. 
I have not seen any STOCK 1.8T run close to that. IF you want to talk modified then let me know. The aftermarket for the Mustang is about 3 times the size it is for the VW's. 

Know I know the VW and Audis have really nice interiors (Have had 4 in the family), but you are comparing them to under 20K American cars. If I want a luxory car I won't by American, but if I want a Fast car that won't set me back 30-60K that is easily moddable then I will by an American car. 
I am know bad mouthing VW, I am buying a Passat in a month. I am just saying you comparison between the Protege and the Jetta is not fair.


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## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

No.1 I was talking a highway race not a silly 1/4 mile. On the highway (top end) chipped 1.8t will walk on you. Like I said before I seen it done. And I was the one driving a Stang. I know 1/4 mile Stang will kill it. Remember US cars are not geared for top end! Even though theres guys running high 13s on K03s with Mk4 so.....
No.2 my moms Mazda is a 2.0 auto and so is my bro Jettas. And Jetta is faster. Me and my bro raced the other day. Jetta had a car length up to 80mph. And its a 2000 or 2001 LX (i think).
No.3 when I was refering to the driver it wasn't to Mazda vs. Jetta race, but to people that test them (mags).
If you want speed get a used Supra , 300zx, rx7 or 3000gt and hook it up. Most Stags won't have a chance. Anyhow Us cars stll blow. But thats just me. I dont car if its a Viper or Z06 ,they all garbage to me!!! Wont even give it a second look.
BTW, good luck with your Passat. Great choice! 
I bought mine 3 years ago and I love it. Couldn have choose a better car. I want to keep it forever!


[Modified by passaturbo, 3:25 PM 7-17-2002]


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## je_ (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

Dude, if the Protege in its current form was available when I bought my TDI Jetta, I would have got that instead, for these reasons:
* Jetta is a lot bigger, Protege is a better size for me
* Protege is about $6000 or $7000 all included less expensive
* Protege is less expensive to upgrade, looks just as good or better in black or red
* Protege has IRS. That's a big one. For that and other reasons it's a nicer handler.
* Mazda paint isn't an abomination like the VW paint. I wish I had know that before.
I didn't like the older Protege, I already had a Mazda before (a real sports car, not this VW 'facade' crap). I know a bit about interiors and materials, and the Mazda interior is hi-quality like the Jetta but it doesn't look as posh (I liked that too). I've had a gentle but infuriating time of OE part failures, which I understand the Mazda does not suffer from. If Protege offered a TDI, the choice wouldn't have been VW. Sorry for not toeing the line.
Protege, is that still built in Michigan? Why do you call it a US car? Jetta is built in Mexico, just like so many other American cars. Designed overseas, just like your Protege. Wise up.


[Modified by je_, 7:35 PM 7-17-2002]


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## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (je_)*

My bros Jetta wagon isn't , made in Germany! Thats the reason he bought it. His older Mexican made 99 GL was breaking left and right so he got rid of it for the wagon. 
Anyways Mazda is a Ford ,I wouldn't be surprised if it shared parts with escort or Focus. 
I ve had number of Japanese cars and they all drive like crap after 20k or so. They feel like vw with 100+ miles. But I never said they are not reliable...
As far as reliability on US cars go, well check out Consumer reports....theres only 3 US cars that are average on reliability, everything else below average http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


[Modified by passaturbo, 5:19 PM 7-17-2002]


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

Actually, Proteges are 98 % parts and assembled in Hiroshima, Japan. Just because ford owns 50 somthing % of their stock doesn't mean they design everything. Same thing with Volvo and Jaguar. 
I have many friends that have mustangs with over 160k+ miles still going strong with original transmissions. Hell my brothers 1990 lX 5.0 had 140K when he sold it with all the original parts (except brake pads, tires, and belts) including the original clutch never used a drop of oil. The reason people think cars like the Mustang are unreliable is that 16 year old kids get them and run the crap out of them and don't change the oil. 
And the thing about Mustangs that can't keep up with Supras, and 300ZXs. I have many videos of Mustangs running 200 + MPH on the stock block with just a supercharger strapped on. And I don't get what you mean they aren't geared for it. Mustangs come with 3.73 gears which gives them a top speed when stock over 150 that is only limited by aerodynamics. I personally have had my Mustang over 150 with 4:10 gears. I redline in 5th at 164. It costs about 350 to change the gears in a mustang. That way you can tune to the 1/4 mile or for the highway, whichever you want. There are many street driven mustangs that have 600HP + that will tear up BPU+ supras on the highway. 
It all takes money....How fast do you want to go. You can make any car fast! It just matters what you have when the time comes. 
Anyway....the reason I am buying a VW is because it is a really nice car. Losts of room, nice interior and engine. I bought the Mustang for a completely different reason. Easy and Cheap to make fast. Its all about PERSONAL preference. 
I am glad you have you opinion, but everyone has their own. It dosn't make either of us right.


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

OK, my brother has a worked over 5.0 Mustang, and I have a 1.8T, and I've driven both. Does the Mustang accelerate faster off the line? Of course it does, it's grossly oversized engine produces gobs of low-end torque. It's really fun driving it, as long as you're going in a straight line.
But if your comparison includes a turn in the road, the VW will destroy the Ford, nevermind the 245/45-17 rubber vs. the 195/65-15 tires on the Jetta.
Oh, and bumps in the road? Better not be any in the Mustang's lane! If the whole body doesn't rattle itself apart, and if the solid rear axle doesn't send your head flying into the roof, knocking you out, you're going to be having fun trying to keep the car from spinning out.
BTW, maybe you should check the price of a new Mustang GT. You're not going to get one of those for less than 20K--MSRP for a base GT Coupe is over $23,000 with no options, or nearly $26,000 with leather and auto...
260bhp/302 lb-ft is not impressive for a car with a 4.6L V8 engine--perhaps that's why it only turns a 14 sec time slip. Volkswagen is getting 275/270 out of their 4.0L W8, and Audi gets 300 from their 4.2L V8. Now you're in Cobra territory (320bhp 32V DOHC for 2001). Maybe that's why Ford had to add a blower to the 2003 Cobra.
Granted, the Ford engine is a SOHC design, versus the VW and Audi DOHC's--but then Ford's website claims that the SOHC design "helps provide power output at a higher rpm and is designed for those who tend to push their vehicle". Laughable. Anybody who believes that will soon be separated with their money. Actually, the reverse is true. SOHC designs help provide power output at *lower* rpms and are designed for those who *don't* push their vehicle. The 16V V8 is made for low-end torque, not high-end torque. For that, you need a 32V Cobra. Oops, there you go--right past $30,000. At least for that money, you get the independent rear suspension.
Much of the "larger aftermarket" for American cars is comprised of non- street legal equipment. If you want to build a drag car, by all means go American.
That said, the Mustang is great for stoplight intimidation of overconfident rice racers. Just don't ask it to do anything else. I think Ford should keep the Mustang in the lineup for the older enthusiasts, but Ford needs a new platform capable of performing with the best in the world. The Focus ain't it.
There is absolutely no reason why an American car company can't design a simple, affordable, high performance, high quality car that uses modern technology. The problem is, the American car companies are too ponderous to see their toes past their waistlines.

quote:[HR][/HR]And if you think a stock turboed 1.8T will walk away from My Mustang then bring it. Now if you spend 2K on the K04 turbo swap and then add bigger injectors, exhaust ect. You might have a chance. I ran the 1/4 mile stock at 14.0 at 99mph. 
I have not seen any STOCK 1.8T run close to that. IF you want to talk modified then let me know. The aftermarket for the Mustang is about 3 times the size it is for the VW's. 
Know I know the VW and Audis have really nice interiors (Have had 4 in the family), but you are comparing them to under 20K American cars. If I want a luxory car I won't by American, but if I want a Fast car that won't set me back 30-60K that is easily moddable then I will by an American car. [HR][/HR]​
[Modified by amper, 11:09 AM 7-18-2002]


[Modified by amper, 11:14 AM 7-18-2002]


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

I paid 19000 for my GT with every option except Auto and Mach 460 Stereo. My brother paid 26800 for his Cobra with every option. Which put my GT cheaper than a Jetta. 
There are plenty of suspension companies out there for the Mustang. If you don't think Mustangs handle go drive a stage I or II Steeda or a Saleen. 
The aftermarket has companies like Maximum Motorsports and Kenny Brown that make mustang some of the best handling cars in the world. Go to their site and look at all the SCCA and other wins they have. 
People are just ignorant to how versitile the Mustang platform is. 
You can talk about the W8 all you want, but it is about 35-40K which is the same price or more than a Terminator Cobra that has 380rwhp and also out handles it. I am not going to quote magazine times. There is a reason why Ford sticks with the SOHC V8. It may not be as high tech as a W8, but it costs about 1/2 the price to make. That is why the Mustang GT can be sold for around 20K. If you want a good handling mustang that has plenty of HP get a Cobra. People road race those all the time and do very well. 
What does the Beloved W8 run in the 1/4 mile and what are the slalom and Skidpad #'s. Just because it has 270 HP doesn't mean it will out accelerate another car with say 260hp. There are torque curves and power to weight ratios and gearing that all effect that.
You people still don't get the point. You are comparing cars in different classes. 
If you want to campare something to the Jetta and Passat its not a Mustang, or Camaro or even a Focus. It is the Camary, Tarus, and Altima. Which I believe the Passat is a better car then all of those. THAT IS WHY I AM BUYING ONE. Compare matching Prices and body types. 
I understand you guys love you cars, but don't be blind. 
I know my car is not the best car in the world. I get my ass handed to me by LS1 Firebirds and Camaros all the time. I also get beat by M3's and the such. 
Some of you guys seem to have blinders on.


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## allan r (Dec 30, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

"260bhp/302 lb-ft is not impressive for a car with a 4.6L V8 engine--perhaps that's why it only turns a 14 sec time slip. Volkswagen is getting 275/270 out of their 4.0L W8, and Audi gets 300 from their 4.2L V8"
oh, man. so the ford produces 32tq more than the vw? ok, we've got that down. must be tuned for higher tq output then. the passat with it's mighty W8 with 275hp runs a 15 sec 1320. whoopadeedo. too bad the thing's a pig at 4000+ lbls.








Aftermarket for Mustangs and F bods is HUGE, and it's absurdly simple to make the cars go fast. And yes, they do handle and will hand any production VW it's A$$ on a track. don't deny it, every new VW is a pot-bellied elephant and you know it.
next person: non-protege believers: yes the MP3 has different components plus better (17in) rubber and it of course helps. the base one isn't that far off, they still use the same chassis and sorry, i don't have my own testing facility. i guess i'll have to rely on magazines and their tests. EVERY magazine likes the protege, and EVERY magazine says the vw's could lose some weight and get better sus. tuninig. I gues they are all wrong because we at vwvortex did not witness the tests first hand.


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

Well I hope I didn't offend anyone with my OPINIONS. I love the VW and Audis or I wouldn't be here. My dad is on his 4th Audi so I know what kind of cars they are. I love his A6 and I really liked his 9000 Turbo. His A6 Handles and rides like a dream. 
I am buying a VW and I obviously love them so lets just get along. 
The Protoge I have is my first Japanese Car and the Passat will be my first German car. I am happy with the Protege so far, and hope it will give me many years of fun trouble free driving. I am sure the Passat will meet or beat any expectation I have. As soon as I drove the Passat I was hooked. 
Anyway....Just had some highway fun on the way back from lunch with an old Lexus SC400.







Anyway. If your ever in Tulsa stop by Tulsa Internation Speedway. There are some fast cars out there. There is a couple 10 second Hondas and a 12 Second Turbo Rabbit.


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## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

Im not saying that anyone is right or wrong but..............my bros Jetta is faster then Mazda, believe it or not.
As far as car makers go, IMO Americans make the worst cars in the world (thats just my opinion) Im not saying Im right or wrong. I base my opinion on my past experiance. From what I know:
-I haven't seen 1 US car that had every detail finished and if you think about it ,if they make such a low quality interior do you think they make the rest any better?
-I ve worked as a draftsman at a lot of companies in US and get to work with many engineers. I ve been to the biggest Jet engine company in the world to the smallest Joe Shmo shop and I know all about American work force. Im sure you guys see it every day too. Anyhow I know how the parts are designed and all about the process of selecting vendors to make them. Which do you think they pick , more money for better quality or less for crap(which effects their product down the line)????
- Safety!!! The most important! US companies are still catching up with safety. You can see it with the resent off side tests. In which all US cars+trucks did poor. 3-4 years ago when they started head on test same thing happened. Now they have "5 star" ratings on all their vehicles because of the publicity. Now that off side test went public they will have 5 star on that also ...in few years. US makers dont care about your life or safety. Thats been for soo many year. Look at all the law suits against Ford and GM. In 86 GM saved 4 bucks per car ,and they didn't fix the trunk switch on a 86 Cutless. They knew about it but didnt fix it. Now theres hundreds of people that are burned cause the switch ignited when they got hit from the back. Also they lost more then it would've costed them to fix it in the law suits Anyways this kind of thing has been going on forever! 
-Performance , slalom, stats blah blah blah, when I drive my Vdub and a Mustang its the way the car feels. How solid it is and the way it drives. Most US cars Ive been in are boats. Hit a bump and you bouncin down the road. The way they feel is terible. They are fast but not responsive. Most take a sec or two in order to go after you floor it. Dont like any..........Mustangs to Vettes.
-IMO they are in the class of its own. They compete against each other. They are all the same ish with different badge. Anyone that compares a Vette to Porsche, Ferrari is on crack. Compare it to Viper or something. BTW I noticed the new Viper has the same vent controls as my dads Caravan







.Supercar you said???
-theres soo much more I just cant type anymore......


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## je_ (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]-I ve worked as a draftsman at a lot of companies in US and get to work with many engineers. I ve been to the biggest Jet engine company in the world to the smallest Joe Shmo shop and I know all about American work force. Im sure you guys see it every day too. Anyhow I know how the parts are designed and all about the process of selecting vendors to make them. Which do you think they pick , more money for better quality or less for crap(which effects their product down the line)????[HR][/HR]​I've designed many parts, and drafted them, and been engineer on a few, and I tell you they all get designed the same everywhere in the world. I've got Japanese CAD models that couldn't be built. Oh, and the sourcing method is THE SAME everywhere in the world. It has to be that way. Your arguments are all over the map - and now you're calling these 2 cars American, when the first one is built almost entirely in Japan, and the other is either Mexican or German.







Just give up!
Mustang weight dist - 60:40
Jetta weight dist - 64:36? And the heavy end drives too?










[Modified by je_, 5:08 PM 7-19-2002]


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I paid 19000 for my GT with every option except Auto and Mach 460 Stereo. My brother paid 26800 for his Cobra with every option. Which put my GT cheaper than a Jetta. [HR][/HR]​I really find it difficult to believe you paid 19000 for a car that lists for 25,000. I also find it hard to believe you can get a fully loaded Cobra for under 27K. If that's really how much you paid, good for you! We paid 21,200 for our Jetta with every option except the Monsoon stereo and the 17" wheels.
quote:[HR][/HR]There are plenty of suspension companies out there for the Mustang. If you don't think Mustangs handle go drive a stage I or II Steeda or a Saleen. 
The aftermarket has companies like Maximum Motorsports and Kenny Brown that make mustang some of the best handling cars in the world. Go to their site and look at all the SCCA and other wins they have.[HR][/HR]​My brothers Mustang is loaded with Steeda and/or Saleen suspension parts. Our stock Jetta smokes the Mustang when it come to handling. Period. The live axle and severe front end weight bias kill any chance the Mustang has of cornering well at high speeds on real roads. Not to mention the atrocious chassis dynamics of the Mustang...
quote:[HR][/HR]People are just ignorant to how versitile the Mustang platform is. 
You can talk about the W8 all you want, but it is about 35-40K which is the same price or more than a Terminator Cobra that has 380rwhp and also out handles it. I am not going to quote magazine times. There is a reason why Ford sticks with the SOHC V8. It may not be as high tech as a W8, but it costs about 1/2 the price to make. That is why the Mustang GT can be sold for around 20K. If you want a good handling mustang that has plenty of HP get a Cobra. People road race those all the time and do very well. [HR][/HR]​My point is that the Mustang is severely limited in its ultimate performance capability by Ford's stubborn insistence on using outdated technology. The OHV and SOHC engines coupled with a live axle make for a very poor handling car. Yes, you can beef it up with all sorts of aftermarket components, but then you just have a car that handles as well as most stock European cars. Big deal.
The Cobra is the only Mustang worth talking about as far as performance and handling is concerned, but when all is said and done, it still suffers from the same questionable build quality and material choices as the rest of Ford's cars. If the only thing I wanted to do with a vehicle is go fast, I'd be riding my motorcycle more.
quote:[HR][/HR]What does the Beloved W8 run in the 1/4 mile and what are the slalom and Skidpad #'s. Just because it has 270 HP doesn't mean it will out accelerate another car with say 260hp. There are torque curves and power to weight ratios and gearing that all effect that.[HR][/HR]​Who the hell cares what the car will run at a drag strip? Real racing is not done from a standing start and generally involves turning the car. The point is that the W8 at "only" 4.0L is quite a bit more efficient than the Mustang engine. The W8 makes 68.75 bhp/liter, as opposed to the Mustang's 56.52 bhp/liter. And the stock VW engines are generally tuned at quite a bit less than maximum. It takes a Cobra, at 69.56 bhp/liter to match the performance level of the W8.
Curb weight of 2002 Passat W8 = 3907lbs. This includes 4Motion and Tiptronic trans, not to mention a boat load of luxury features. Curb weight of 2002 Mustang GT Premium Coupe = 3241 lbs. Yes, the Mustang, at 12.46 lbs/hp is going to out accelerate the Passat W8, at 14.20 lbs/hp--that is, as long as the road is flat, dry, and straight...
Curb weight of 2003 Mustang Cobra = 3665 lbs?! This is a sports car?! Which one is the overweight pig again (see post above by allan r)? Boy, it's a good thing that new Cobra has a blower on it--its going to need it if it wants to play at being a performance car!
If you really want to be embarrassed, pit a Mustang against a 350Z...300bhp out of a 3.5L V6.
quote:[HR][/HR]You people still don't get the point. You are comparing cars in different classes.[HR][/HR]​Hey, you were the one that suggested your Mustang would beat a 1.8T Jetta in a race, not me...[/quote]
And no, I'm not offended by your opinions--I just love arguing about automotive engineering...







And I'm jealous that we don't have as many wide open straight, flat, dry roads in NJ as you do in OK!


[Modified by amper, 12:45 AM 7-19-2002]


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

Actually, the Mustang engine produces more torque than the W8 because of it's greater displacement and its cylinder/valve configuration. The 16V V8 is going to produce more torque, displacement aside, than the 32V W8 because charge velocities are higher due to the smaller intake area. The Mustang SOHC is producing ~11% more torque from ~14% more displacement--it also produces ~6% less horsepower from the same ~14% greater displacement. It's a good thing the Mustang only weighs 3241 lbs--any more and it wouldn't be able to get out of its own way.
The aftermarket for VW's and Audi's is quite large enough and is geared more for street-legal cars than the the Mustang aftermarket. Most of the performance parts available for Mustangs can't legally be used on public roads.
It is also just as "absurdly simple" to bolt on aftermarket products to a VW and make it go faster.
And no, Mustangs do not handle well. A live axle setup with the gross weight imbalance of the Mustang is not going to produce a car with a high level of handling performance without severe alterations. Not so "absurdly simple"...
As I mentioned before, my brother has a Mustang GT with a heavily modified suspension, and our stock Jetta will beat the pants off the Mustang any day of the week when it comes to handling. I would stack any stock GTI or Jetta with the VW sport suspension against any stock Mustang short of a Cobra on any street or track course that isn't a straight drag--and I won't gloat when I hand the Mustang *it's* ass.
Cripes, my brother's Mustang can't even keep up in a turn or over a bump with my Passat, which hasn't had a suspension part replaced in over 187,000 miles!
Matching a Mustang, even a Cobra, against a Passat W8 isn't a fair fight. That's why Audi is constantly fighting the FIA to keep its cars from getting banned from competiton. The 4Motion (alias quattro) Passat would be looking at the Mustang in its rear view at every turn.
quote:[HR][/HR]oh, man. so the ford produces 32tq more than the vw? ok, we've got that down. must be tuned for higher tq output then. the passat with it's mighty W8 with 275hp runs a 15 sec 1320. whoopadeedo. too bad the thing's a pig at 4000+ lbls.








Aftermarket for Mustangs and F bods is HUGE, and it's absurdly simple to make the cars go fast. And yes, they do handle and will hand any production VW it's A$$ on a track. don't deny it, every new VW is a pot-bellied elephant and you know it.[HR][/HR]​
[Modified by amper, 1:05 AM 7-19-2002]


[Modified by amper, 1:10 AM 7-19-2002]


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I am buying a VW and I obviously love them so lets just get along.[HR][/HR]​Well, in that case, can I get a ride in that Mustang GT with the 4.10 gears? Do I need to bring a neck brace?


----------



## allan r (Dec 30, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

Of course it makes more tq because of the extra .6/l. but you can still tune an engine to produce more bottom end than top end regardless, and vice versa. 
if your Jetta can "beat the pants off the Mustang" then the driver of the Mustang doesn't know what the hell he's doing. It is hard to drive a powerful RWD car to it's potential, after all. You can make a VW handle well (read: for a front driver) but there's always that limiting factor of FWD. You've got poor traction around turns, weight transfer to the wrong wheels upon acceleration, and a very front heavy car. None of those things are of desire when building a race car. Not to mention the VW's have a solid rear axle for cripes sake, still in 2002 (who's old tech now?) Many other cars are much smoother and that is true whether the elitists at VWVortex believe it or not. Watch a Honda go around an autox track for other FWD comparisons.
quote:[HR][/HR]
It's a good thing the Mustang only weighs 3241 lbs--any more and it wouldn't be able to get out of its own way.[HR][/HR]​and a Jetta weighs in at almost 3000lbls with, oh 60 less hp. it can barely get out of _it's_ own way
quote:[HR][/HR]
Curb weight of 2003 Mustang Cobra = 3665 lbs?! This is a sports car?! Which one is the overweight pig again (see post above by allan r)? 
[HR][/HR]​No, it's a sports COUPE. And it weighs that much because they decided on a cast iron block to handle the extra power from the blower. FYI, there are already 03 Cobras in the 11's with just a few bolt-ons. And the chassis has really come along way. 03 Cobra = Jetta oWnAr.
The Jetta weighs almost 3000 lbls? This is a compact car???








It's great that you've got a favorite type of car, but honestly - you can't be dillusional about it. the VW's are overweight, FWD and not super fast. They can't handle well at all with out serious modification (read: coilovers, anti-roll bars, bushings, seroius camber adj, etc). 


[Modified by allan r, 11:10 PM 7-18-2002]


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## jon3k (Dec 4, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

Never seen so much disinformation in my entire life ... where are your moderators? You'd think they'd come in and close this thread to avoid further embarassment








*Oh, and bumps in the road? Better not be any in the Mustang's lane! If the whole body doesn't rattle itself apart, and if the solid rear axle doesn't send your head flying into the roof, knocking you out, you're going to be having fun trying to keep the car from spinning out.*
Don't jetta's have solid beam rear's?
quote:[HR][/HR]260bhp/302 lb-ft is not impressive for a car with a 4.6L V8 engine--perhaps that's why it only turns a 14 sec time slip. Volkswagen is getting 275/270 out of their 4.0L W8, and Audi gets 300 from their 4.2L V8. Now you're in Cobra territory (320bhp 32V DOHC for 2001). *Maybe that's why Ford had to add a blower to the 2003 Cobra.*[HR][/HR]​What about a 1.8L engine needing a turbo to make 150hp?


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## corpsedub (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

amper...a stock 2002 mustang GT will kill you in more than just a straight line...ever heard of something called RWD...while a jetta has WRONG WHEEL DRIVE...please..there is allready WAYYYYYYYYYYYY to much mag racing going on in this thread..to any mustang guy's just comming here to stick up for your rides..im sorry..not all of us dubbers are like this...peace


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Suspension feels worn out and just feels rough! 

the MP3 runs a 70.2 slalom, according to road&track's best handling road/track car (i think 6/02). what did the jetta run again? oh, yeah, they didn't test it. the MP3 was the only front driver, (for reason that it just handles sooo well) and hung on the a$$es of a Z06, M3, 911TT, Boxter S, EVO IV, Elise, and 360M. Beat a few in some categories, too.
Good read, it was. The MP3 took last place overall, but right behind the M3. Elise was 2nd and Ferarri was 1st.[HR][/HR]​ In an attempt to get back to topic , I read that article it was very good and showed the potential that little mazda has, Road & Track said if it had more hp it would have given some of those others a better run for their money. They said something similar for the Elise, with a bit more power it would have won the competition outright...
The Mp3 and the Protege5 Wagon are pretty cool well equipped cars, If I were a teenager again looking for my 1st new car,I would consider it high on my list..(heck I remember wanting a 323 GTX back then...







)


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## Eric F4i (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (jon3k)*

Man o Man! I have to agree w/ ya john. The mod's should be in here with tear gas!!! This thread is just full of BS. 
I've never heard anybody say VW and handling in the same sentence and now there outhandling mustang's and MP3's.
Yes, you can a new mustang for @20K it's not a special deal. 
LOL @passatturbo, he doesn't even give Z06's a second look because it's US made. You f-ing jackass it's one of, if not the best sports car in the WORLD for 50K.
quote:[HR][/HR] So if you think your car is so fast then take it on a highway with a chipped 1.8t and you will get woooped.[HR][/HR]​Yeah because real racers(i.e. stunnaz) don't cut the go pedal until about 150. EVERYBODY knows high speed highway runs are the shizznit, yO.
quote:[HR][/HR] do you think the rest of your car is made any better[HR][/HR]​Uhm, yes. Although the interior leaves a little to be desired, the drivetrain is tough as nails. As someone else started to mentioned, that's part of the reason they can sell cars with good power for so cheap. But whatcha gonna do after a rustang w/ some gears, flows and some shorty's blows your doors off...tell him how nice your interior looks and functional it is? I thought this was a performance site?
quote:[HR][/HR]If you want speed get a used Supra , 300zx, rx7 or 3000gt and hook it up. Most Stags won't have a chance. Anyhow Us cars stll blow. But thats just me. I dont car if its a Viper or Z06 ,they all garbage to me!!! Wont even give it a second look.[HR][/HR]​Christ, for the price of any of those cars used you could have a griggs equiped, blown mustang that would...well I think you get my point.
You say:
quote:[HR][/HR]are just mag stats and dont mean crap[HR][/HR]​then say:
quote:[HR][/HR]well check out Consumer reports....[HR][/HR]​I'll stop now, this thraed stinks.
Makin' the VW owners look really good bud. Honest


----------



## lacuna (May 10, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

i've owned a '73 bug and a '90 a2 golf.
my my g/f has owned a '75 mercury comet v8, and a '85 mazda rx-7
those who are saying domestic cars are crap have their head stuck up their a$$. lets see where your a4 jetta is in 30 years... my g/fs comet had a v8 302 that pulled like mad even with 240,000 km on it. that car's handling was getting pretty loose and bouncy, but age was taking its toll. how's that for longevity
if you think mustang 5.0/gt's suck, then you've never raced one. my a2 golf cant even stay close enough to one to see it. the comet came close, but not quite.
vw's handling is descent but by no means the best. the rx/7's handling beats every car i've ever driven hands down. its not crazy fast but it sticks to the road at any speed with out fail. it has 225,000km and is just starting to burn oil.. hows that for longevity.
my old bug was 30 years old when i sold it for financial reasons. it had very little rust, and the motor was only beginning to burn oil. it didnt handle very well and was really slow. but it'll last forever. hows that for longevity?
domestics dont suck because they're made in the usa. vw isnt good because its made in germany......
germany puts out crap. (the fox anyone?) usa puts out crap. (sunfire? escort? etc..)
germany also puts out amazing cars. (911!!) the us also puts out amazing cars. (mustangs, corvettes)
brand loyalty is kinda stupid.
you can buy amazing vws. i love them. i'll aways own them. but not because they're vw. but because i know the models i bought are quality and because they can be depended on.
the mustang is crazy fast. it may not be the nicest looking car, but its well constructed and will last. its also cheap for what you're getting. look how many 60's american cars are still on the road. 
drive what you want. they're all cars. just make sure you know what you're getting.


----------



## Kainam (Mar 10, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (lacuna)*








Thanks for the laugh passaturbo


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Kainam)*

Why don't you guys go settle this with a round of Gran Tourismo 3?


----------



## jk94z28 (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

What mustangs come with 3.73 gears? I don't know where you heard this but it is not so. And as for top end 3.73's and 4.10's are terrible up high and as far as a high end race you'd be better off with the stockers.


----------



## Kainam (Mar 10, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (jk94z28)*

quote:[HR][/HR]What mustangs come with 3.73 gears? I don't know where you heard this but it is not so. And as for top end 3.73's and 4.10's are terrible up high and as far as a high end race you'd be better off with the stockers.[HR][/HR]​Nope, if you do the calculations, 4.10s are good for 190 mph at 6800 rpm.
With the stock 3.27s, 5th gear is pretty much useless for top speed runs. A higher gear ratio makes 5th gear useful and gives you better acceleration.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (gizmopop)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Why don't you guys go settle this with a round of Gran Tourismo 3?







[HR][/HR]​haha http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Good Idea


----------



## jk94z28 (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Kainam)*

3.73's and 4.10's are good for 1/4 mile, not top speed. This is why cars like maseratis, feraris and lamborghinis dont have steep gears. And again whose mustang came stock with 3.73's???? Thanks.


----------



## Kainam (Mar 10, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (jk94z28)*

quote:[HR][/HR]3.73's and 4.10's are good for 1/4 mile, not top speed. This is why cars like maseratis, feraris and lamborghinis dont have steep gears. And again whose mustang came stock with 3.73's???? Thanks. [HR][/HR]​I didn't say my mustang came with 3.73's, I said 3.27. So, with 3.27 gears, what would you say my top speed is. Since I see you drive a chevy







, I'll give you a link to help you out http://www.prestage.com/carmath/calc_Gears.asp. Use 25.68 for tire height, 3.27 for axle ratio, 6800 for rpm, and 0.67 for transmission ratio. Youre saying a stock Cobra can do 237mph if the electronic limiter were to be bypassed? AMAZING!!!


----------



## Kainam (Mar 10, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (jk94z28)*

quote:[HR][/HR]3.73's and 4.10's are good for 1/4 mile, not top speed. This is why cars like maseratis, feraris and lamborghinis dont have steep gears. And again whose mustang came stock with 3.73's???? Thanks. [HR][/HR]​Really? What exactly are the gear ratios for the Maseratis, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis?
According to http://www.lamborghiniregistry.com/Diablo/Diablo/index.html The Diablo has an effective drive ratio of 3.83:1 (1.59:1 xfer gear ratio x 2.41:1 final drive)

Me thinks you are another







that doesn't know WTH they are talking about.


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

Oh, where to begin....
Man, talk about a whole lot of blustering...first of all I apologize about getting *way* off topic and inadvertantly starting what has apparently turned into a flame war supported by a whole lot of non-VW drivers and non-Mustang drivers.
Anybody that thinks a Mustang GT, even with suspension mods, is going to out-do an A4 Jetta with the VW sport suspension on any road course that isn't perfectly smooth obviously hasn't driven the two back to back, and even more obviously understands very little about chassis and suspension dynamics. I have driven both, and the Jetta just flat out handles better around turns and over bumps. Maybe some of you guys aren't familiar with the "superb" quality of northeastern US roads...
as for allan r: 
quote:[HR][/HR]Of course it makes more tq because of the extra .6/l. but you can still tune an engine to produce more bottom end than top end regardless, and vice versa.[HR][/HR]​Not without major internal modifications to the engine. Your torque curve is determined by the overall design of the engine, the most limiting factor in this case being intake charge speed. All other things being equal (read: bore x stroke), no amount of "tuning" is going to turn a engine with a multi-valve head into a low-end torque monster--conversely, no amount of "tuning" is going to make a two-valve cylinder head suck faster at high rpms.
quote:[HR][/HR]if your Jetta can "beat the pants off the Mustang" then the driver of the Mustang doesn't know what the hell he's doing. It is hard to drive a powerful RWD car to it's potential, after all. You can make a VW handle well (read: for a front driver) but there's always that limiting factor of FWD. You've got poor traction around turns, weight transfer to the wrong wheels upon acceleration, and a very front heavy car. None of those things are of desire when building a race car.[HR][/HR]​Actually I'm a pretty good driver...of FWD, RWD, AWD, and 4WD vehicles. And two-wheeled vehicles, too (at least on the street, not so good with bikes off-road, yet). It's hard to drive any car to its potential; however, you seem to think that FWD means poor turning characteristics. Turning characteristics are more related to suspension configuration and weight balance. The Jetta beats the Mustang on both counts. The only limiting factors of FWD are that it's harder to induce oversteer on demand and that FWD setups tend to have less ultimate power-handling capabilities, due to the necessarily smaller volume available for drivetrain components.
As far as "poor traction around turns" is concerned, that has nothing to do with FWD. "Weight transfer to the wrong wheels" is only an issue from a standing start, as in a drag. What does that have to do with handling? A very front heavy car? The Mustang is even more front heavy than the VW! The only thing keeping the Mustang planted in a high-speed turn is the outrageously wide tires.
quote:[HR][/HR]Not to mention the VW's have a solid rear axle for cripes sake, still in 2002 (who's old tech now?) Many other cars are much smoother and that is true whether the elitists at VWVortex believe it or not. Watch a Honda go around an autox track for other FWD comparisons.[HR][/HR]​No, the VW's don't have a solid rear axle, they have a torsion beam rear axle. If you don't know the difference, go read about it before you spout off. Yes, there are better handling cars than a Jetta, but no, the Mustang isn't one of them.
quote:[HR][/HR]No, it's a sports COUPE. And it weighs that much because they decided on a cast iron block to handle the extra power from the blower. FYI, there are already 03 Cobras in the 11's with just a few bolt-ons. And the chassis has really come along way. 03 Cobra = Jetta oWnAr.[HR][/HR]​The difference between "sports car" and "sports coupe" would be what, exactly? The cast iron block is for cost and compatibility reasons, not strength. The new Cobra "only" makes 390bhp, after all. Ever hear of a ZL1? All-aluminum GM 427 big block that made nearly 600bhp back when. And yes, the chassis of the Cobra is a great improvement over the standard Mustang. I wasn't criticizing the handling of the Cobra. And WTF is an "oWnAr"? Is that some of that new "teen speak", like "3733t haX0r"?! Grow up. The Cobra ought to be lighter than the GT, not heavier by some 400+ pounds.
jon 3k:
quote:[HR][/HR]Don't jetta's have solid beam rear's?
What about a 1.8L engine needing a turbo to make 150hp?[HR][/HR]​See above re: the solid axle debate. 
The 1.8T doesn't *need* a turbo to make 150hp, it uses the turbo to smooth out the torque curve. It's a very small (K03) turbo, after all. Ford is doing the same thing with the 2003 Cobra. Jeez, the turboless version of the same engine makes 125bhp--VW wouldn't go through the expense of adding a turbo just for 25bhp. There are many normally aspirated sub 2-liter engines that make even more horsepower than the 150bhp 1.8T (e.g. Honda VTEC's, etc), but none of them have the flat torque curve of the 1.8T.
BTW, that 150bhp 1.8T is making 83+bhp/liter, on par with the 2003 Cobra's ~85bhp/liter. The newer 180bhp version ups that to 100bhp/liter, and the Audi TT ups even that to a very impressive 125bhp/liter. Now we're getting close to motorcyle territory. And as far as normally aspirated engines go, VW's Polo Super 1600 makes 215bhp from 1.6 liters, or 135+bhp/liter--not that you'd want this engine in a street car, but it illustrates that VW can build high performance engines with the best of them.
Eric F4i:
quote:[HR][/HR]LOL @passatturbo, he doesn't even give Z06's a second look because it's US made. You f-ing jackass it's one of, if not the best sports car in the WORLD for 50K.[HR][/HR]​For 50 grand I can get any number of cars that will make a laughingstock of the Z06, but the real problem with the Z06 is the quality of its manufacturing, not its performance.
lacuna:
quote:[HR][/HR]lets see where your a4 jetta is in 30 years... my g/fs comet had a v8 302 that pulled like mad even with 240,000 km on it. that car's handling was getting pretty loose and bouncy, but age was taking its toll. how's that for longevity[HR][/HR]​It took me a few minutes to stop laughing after I read that. My Passat has over 300,000km on it, and it too "pulls like mad", at least for a car with a 2.8L 12v six. 30 years? Cars aren't built like that anymore for a reason.
quote:[HR][/HR]if you think mustang 5.0/gt's suck, then you've never raced one. my a2 golf cant even stay close enough to one to see it. the comet came close, but not quite.[HR][/HR]​The A4 platform is miles ahead of the A2. I have raced Mustang's--with me in the Mustang, as well as me against the Mustang. They're not all that fast, and they only shine when straight-line acceleration is the point. That's not racing.
quote:[HR][/HR]vw's handling is descent but by no means the best. the rx/7's handling beats every car i've ever driven hands down. its not crazy fast but it sticks to the road at any speed with out fail. it has 225,000km and is just starting to burn oil.. hows that for longevity.[HR][/HR]​Nobody ever said VW's were the best handling cars, just better handling than a Mustang. And if you think the RX-7 is great, try some truly great cars.
quote:[HR][/HR]germany puts out crap. (the fox anyone?)[HR][/HR]​The Fox wasn't designed or built in Germany, unless you count the fact that it was an evolution of the earlier Audi Fox, which may have been from Germany (don't remember). The VW Fox came out of Brasil. And when it comes right down to it, it wasn't crap, either. It handily beat other cars of its class in its day (Honda Civic, Hyundai Excel).
quote:[HR][/HR]brand loyalty is kinda stupid.
you can buy amazing vws. i love them. i'll aways own them. but not because they're vw. but because i know the models i bought are quality and because they can be depended on.[HR][/HR]​Huh? That's the *definition* of brand loyalty!
quote:[HR][/HR]the mustang is crazy fast. it may not be the nicest looking car, but its well constructed and will last. its also cheap for what you're getting. look how many 60's american cars are still on the road.[HR][/HR]​The modern Mustang is not anything like a 60's era car, except in its basic engine and suspension configuration. Well constructed? Don't make me laugh! My brother's Mustang practically shakes itself to death every time you hit a bump in the road! It's embarrassing...
Look, people, if all you want to do with your car is go fast in a straight line and impress the less than well-educated, by all means get a RWD car with a huge engine and knock your self silly. If you want to go fast in a straight line, fast around the turns, and fast over the bumps, get a car that will do that for you.
Just recognize that all cars have limitations and that every driver will have a different set of criteria as to what make a good car--and when you argue, argue facts. And remember that at the end of the day, we're all brother and sister enthusiasts...which is why we argue about these things in the first place!


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## Carguy12 (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

Amper,
Kudos on your ability to wrap up a monstrous amount of BS into such an eloquently written dissertation. It would seem that you paid attention sufficiently in English class, but often slept through automotive theory 101.
quote:[HR][/HR]Anybody that thinks a Mustang GT, even with suspension mods, is going to out-do an A4 Jetta with the VW sport suspension on any road course that isn't perfectly smooth obviously hasn't driven the two back to back, and even more obviously understands very little about chassis and suspension dynamics[HR][/HR]​Suspension dynamics such as overly dampened? Excessive body roll? And oh, umm, a little thing called FWD? Stock for stock, a new Mustang GT would demolish a stock A4 Jetta on nearly any road course in the country. The only car enthusiests that I know who praise the greatness of the stock Jetta's suspension "dynamics" are brand loyalist dolts. Most admit the shortcomings of the A4's cornering capabilites and make up for them in the aftermarket.
quote:[HR][/HR]As far as "poor traction around turns" is concerned, that has nothing to do with FWD. "Weight transfer to the wrong wheels" is only an issue from a standing start, as in a drag. What does that have to do with handling? A very front heavy car? The Mustang is even more front heavy than the VW! The only thing keeping the Mustang planted in a high-speed turn is the outrageously wide tires.[HR][/HR]​Wrong wrong wrong! You really think that weight transfer rearward doesn't apply when you're blasting out of a corner at Buttonwillow? Of course it does! And just for ****s and giggles, what is a stock 03 Jetta's front/rear weight distribution? I wouldn't be surprised if the Mustang's is more even.
quote:[HR][/HR]The difference between "sports car" and "sports coupe" would be what, exactly?[HR][/HR]​Sports car traditionally = 2 seater convertible. 
quote:[HR][/HR]The cast iron block is for cost and compatibility reasons, not strength. The new Cobra "only" makes 390bhp, after all.[HR][/HR]​An aluminum block was tested and it was found to be inadequate to handle the Cobra's power. They were forced to revert to a cast iron block to ensure that the car would be reliable when subject to lots of full throttle blasts around a road course. A far more expensive aluminum block would have corrected the problem, sure. But the Cobra's MSRP is high enough as is.
quote:[HR][/HR]BTW, that 150bhp 1.8T is making 83+bhp/liter, on par with the 2003 Cobra's ~85bhp/liter. The newer 180bhp version ups that to 100bhp/liter, and the Audi TT ups even that to a very impressive 125bhp/liter. Now we're getting close to motorcyle territory. And as far as normally aspirated engines go, VW's Polo Super 1600 makes 215bhp from 1.6 liters, or 135+bhp/liter--not that you'd want this engine in a street car, but it illustrates that VW can build high performance engines with the best of them.[HR][/HR]​What does HP/L have to do with performance, or even who can build a better engine? I have Dremel tools that outperform your VW in that respect. Think I should drop one of them under my hood? I'll be sure to outrun everyone!
quote:[HR][/HR]For 50 grand I can get any number of cars that will make a laughingstock of the Z06, but the real problem with the Z06 is the quality of its manufacturing, not its performance.[HR][/HR]​Name me 1 factory car that you can buy today for under $50k that will make a laughingstock out of the Z06 in any contest of speed.
quote:[HR][/HR]The A4 platform is miles ahead of the A2. I have raced Mustang's--with me in the Mustang, as well as me against the Mustang. They're not all that fast, and they only shine when straight-line acceleration is the point. That's not racing.[HR][/HR]​So you're just demonstrating that you haven't the faintest idea of how to properly handle a high power RWD car around corners. Again, stock for stock,equal drivers, etc, a new Mustang would demolish a new Jetta on a drag strip, or on a road course. If you have proof as to the contrary, I'd love to see it. 


[Modified by Carguy12, 3:39 PM 7-20-2002]


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## mad8vskillz (Aug 20, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

check it out, people on clubsi discussing this thread
http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.p...r=954400&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (mad8vskillz)*

quote:[HR][/HR]check it out, people on clubsi discussing this thread
http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.p...r=954400&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=[HR][/HR]​That was good for a few laughs!


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Carguy12)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Suspension dynamics such as overly dampened? Excessive body roll? And oh, umm, a little thing called FWD? Stock for stock, a new Mustang GT would demolish a stock A4 Jetta on nearly any road course in the country. The only car enthusiests that I know who praise the greatness of the stock Jetta's suspension "dynamics" are brand loyalist dolts. Most admit the shortcomings of the A4's cornering capabilites and make up for them in the aftermarket.
Wrong wrong wrong! You really think that weight transfer rearward doesn't apply when you're blasting out of a corner at Buttonwillow? Of course it does! And just for ****s and giggles, what is a stock 03 Jetta's front/rear weight distribution? I wouldn't be surprised if the Mustang's is more even.[HR][/HR]​Overly dampened? Excessive body roll? Oh, I see, it sounds like you've read what the mass-market car magazines have to say, but you've never actually driven a VW...but anyway, I thought you just said "stock for stock"--so who cares about the aftermarket, then? Of course the A4 platform has "shortcomings" when it comes to handling--every car does and that's a relative term, anyway. The Mustangs shortcomings are even worse. There's no getting around that immensely heavy and unsophisticated live axle back there. Can you say "unsprung weight"? I thought you could! Nor, for that matter, are you going to get a 4.6L cast-iron engine without a hell of a lot of weight over the front wheels.
When I said "road course" I was talking about real roads--you know, the kind that aren't perfectly flat and don't have apex markers? Read the rest of the thread and keep up, pal. The discussion I was having relates to the relative handling of an A4 Jetta 1.8T with VW's factory sport suspension versus that of a stock Mustang GT in real-life driving. Who the hell cares what a Mustang or a Jetta will do at "Buttonwillow", whatever that is?
Weight transfer rearward certainly has something to do with the ability to accelerate out of a corner, but that's not handling, that's acceleration. Weight transfer to the driven wheels doesn't mean the car handles better, it just means you're less likely to spin the wheels.
quote:[HR][/HR]Sports car traditionally = 2 seater convertible.[HR][/HR]​Oh, please...get real.
quote:[HR][/HR]An aluminum block was tested and it was found to be inadequate to handle the Cobra's power. They were forced to revert to a cast iron block to ensure that the car would be reliable when subject to lots of full throttle blasts around a road course. A far more expensive aluminum block would have corrected the problem, sure. But the Cobra's MSRP is high enough as is.[HR][/HR]​Give me a break...do you really believe that? The Cobra only makes 390bhp! That's not a whole hell of a lot from a 4.6L engine. Aluminum would have done just fine, but then Ford would have had to produce a second block. They already have a cast iron block (there's a reason its called the "modular" motor).
quote:[HR][/HR]What does HP/L have to do with performance, or even who can build a better engine? I have Dremel tools that outperform your VW in that respect. Think I should drop one of them under my hood? I'll be sure to outrun everyone![HR][/HR]​If you need that explained to you, it would seem that you know even less about automotive engineering than you seem to think I do...
quote:[HR][/HR]Name me 1 factory car that you can buy today for under $50k that will make a laughingstock out of the Z06 in any contest of speed.[HR][/HR]​Who said anything about "factory" cars? I was talking about price versus price. The Z06 is an overpriced POS with the same questionable build quality as every other Detroit car. Why is it that you people who stick up for American "sports" cars always seem to think that just because a car has fat tires and a big engine it's going to beat everything else out there? Open your eyes. A high skidpad number does not necessarily mean good handling, just as a quick 0-60 time or 1/4 mile time does not necessarily mean a car is going to be the fastest thing from point A to point B.
quote:[HR][/HR]So you're just demonstrating that you haven't the faintest idea of how to properly handle a high power RWD car around corners. Again, stock for stock,equal drivers, etc, a new Mustang would demolish a new Jetta on a drag strip, or on a road course. If you have proof as to the contrary, I'd love to see it.[HR][/HR]​Ah, more wishful thinking...you're more than welcome to take a Mustang and a Jetta to a drag strip or a road racing track. I couldn't care less what any production car will do on a race track. I do my driving in the real world. Put one single big bump in the middle of a fast turn and that Mustang will be sideways faster than you'll know what hit you.
Oh wait, that's right. Race tracks don't have bumps...funny how no one seems to praising the Mustang's handling on real roads...isn't it?
OH, and BTW, your attempts to belittle my driving expertise don't impress me. It's been my experience that most people who claim to know an awful lot about "racing", haven't. You may have noticed that I make no such claims...
And before you go spouting off again, answer one question: I've driven both cars. Have you? Somehow, I doubt it.


[Modified by amper, 12:32 AM 7-21-2002]


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## Kainam (Mar 10, 2001)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*


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## Carguy12 (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Kainam)*

Amper,
You're getting more absurd by the post. Z06 a poor handling car? I really hope you didn't type that with a straight face. Otherwise, you're in worse shape than the poor soul in the picture above this post. If you were to drive even a standard C5, hook up to a lie detector and truthfully say that a stock VW handles better, I'll pay you $500 in cold hard cash. 
And for reference, I have driven: a 2002 Jetta, a 2000 Passat, and a 2001 Golf, all owned by coworkers. I have also driven 2 bolt on (stock suspensioned) 99 Mustang GT's. Give me any friggin road you want, the Mustang would severly walk away from all three of the above VW's. So no, I don't get my information from magazines. In fact, I've never read an article that centered on any VW. If you need further appraisals of VW handling characteristics, look at the link to Clubsi above. People who own the cars you are trying to defend are calling you clueless. Yet that's not triggering any lightbulbs?
Also, I live in east PA, the land of atrocious roads. If a bump of any size ever got me sideways in my Mustang, I'd turn in my license. That would be friggin' comedy gold. Oh wait, I did snag a small pebble once and got launched into orbit. Damn that live axle! It's the devil!
Anywho, I don't feel the need to pick apart your other "points", as they are so far removed from reality that I wouldn't know where to begin completely tearing them down and rebuilding them into something even remotely resembling logical thoughts.


[Modified by Carguy12, 8:59 AM 7-21-2002]


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## Carguy12 (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Carguy12)*

Oh, and just to piss in your Cheerios a bit more. From Dictionary.com:
"sports car
n : a small low car with a high-powered engine; usually seats two persons "
I was way off with my 2 seater convertible mark.


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## allan r (Dec 30, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

ampers' only saving grace is that he can write well. Get off your brand loyalist, vw nazi desk chair throne







you know something? i don't particularily care for american cars myself. that doesn't mean i can't recognize the things they (the ones in question here) do well. a Z06 is a race-ready road car. PERIOD. yeah, it's got an ugly dash, and the rear end looks like it's been made out of Play-Do but you know what? It'll own anything in it's price range, and many of double price. And it'll be VERY DIFFICULT to build anything to kill it in a conest of speed. It's also easy to make a C5 go faster, too - ever heard of Ligenfleter?








what it would take for a current VW to keep up with a Mustang GT on any kind of race course would render said VW into a non-streetable vehicle. weight transfer doesn't matter? are you biased or just plain stupid? coming out of a turn you want to be on the gas. your car's momentum will shift rearward, only with WRD (that's wrong wheel drive) the weight is transferred AWAY from the drive wheels, and takes traction with it. is there ways around it? sure, but you don't want to be driving on city streets with a full race suspension. the Mustang will still be ahead, and won't have to be driven home on a trailer (READ: for you, too stupid to realize the correlation of track and road - that means that the Mustang can do comfortably on the street what the Jetta needs track-prep to do. since you like to drive on the street, you're now in the wrong car).
Yes, I know what a TORSION BEAM is - I typed the wrong thing without thinking about it. And you really don't know the difference of a sports car/sports coupe? the lines are a bit blurry, i suppose.
Sports Car - one's who's intended purpose is for pure driving sport. comfort is sacrificed for performance if needed. trunks space and back seats are for sissies.
FD RX-7
Corvette
S2000
Z8
MX-5
Nissan Z
Sports Coupe - one's who's intended purpose is generally for sport, however compromizes will be made for everyday driveability. (including trunk space and back seats).
Mustang
M3
CLK
SLK (yup, it fits here)
Corrado
ITR
F body
Eclipse
You should get the idea. Nobody likes a brand snob. Get off your high horse!! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif it's great that you've got a favorite car - people buy different cars for different reasons and who are we to tell them what's right and wrong?? you have to be rational, because just because a car is made in america doesn't mean we have to hate it, and not realize it's performance. I admit, I had some brand snobbery in me too. Alot of it came from hanging out on Vortex too much (lots of that to rub off here). That's why I rarely come back here.
oh, yeah, oWn3d is an inside joke. i'm not a teenager, but thanks for resorting to insults.
You've been:












[Modified by allan r, 9:22 AM 7-21-2002]


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## Slalom (Jun 25, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

wow, u guys got really out of hand on this one!








i drive both cars that started all this... an auto 2000 Jetta 2.0 and a 5-spd Protege5... now ive never driven a 2.0 Protege with an auto, i hear they really suck, but then again so does the auto in the Jetta... i dont really have a point to all this except that VW and Mazda auto trannies are terrible, who cares which one is faster, neither of them are fast nor should they be...


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Slalom)*

Man Oh Man....I leave for the weekend and this thing turns into a war. Thank you to the people that are better at explaining a point then I am. At least someone sees what I was saying. Anyway. Just drove 1500 miles in less than 3 days and I am tired. I did get to do it in an A6 quatto though so at least it was comfortable. 
Thanks to all of those that are backing the Mustang. I know it is not the be all of automotive engineering, but I knew it could beat a stock Jetta in handling. I also love my Protege for what it is. A decent handling car that looks good and gets good gas mileage. 
I got a quote of 24897 for a loaded 2003 Anthricite Blue Passat GLS Auto. I posted in a different thread, but I guess everyone was busy flaming Amper while I was gone.
Is this a decent price or not? Also is 475 for the dealer installed wood trim high or low?


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## Eric F4i (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

quote:[HR][/HR]That was good for a few laughs![HR][/HR]​Yeah, just like the line you provided for my sig. is good for a few.
quote:[HR][/HR]Who said anything about "factory" cars?[HR][/HR]​LOL, so now that you can't think of Z06 killer you'll make excuses like this. We talked about nothing BUT factory cars smart guy. But just for kicks, what "car(s)" did you have in mind?


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## MadKilla (Jul 24, 2002)

It is faster and outhandles a Protege, AMAZING!! lol, Man try setting yourself up for some higher goals, you won't sound so much like a bottom feeder fanboy.


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## nyisles (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (amper)*

For crap's sake, amper, please punch yourself in the face repeatedly for me. Despite the fact that you've been proven wrong many times over, you insist on continually polluting this thread with your gross ignorance. Do yourself a favor and smash your keyboard before you make an even bigger jackass out of yourself. You made it clear that you don't have any clue about the subjects on which you're arguing with one of your first posts, stating idiotically that weight transfer is only important in a drag-racing situation.









People like you give the VWVortex a bad name.


[Modified by nyisles, 5:18 PM 7-24-2002]


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## je_ (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (nyisles)*

Use the words of Lt. Frank Drebin: *"Signal 'Yes' by shooting yourself in the head three times."*


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

Price seems about right....dealer installed wood trim...hmmm make sure they are using VWs trim check VW.com or even on here I'm sure you can get the trim for less.


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (gizmopop)*

Thanks, the only problem is that I can't get that price in Tulsa. Only one dealer and they told me MSRP or nothing. So I am going to Dallas to get it. I am working with the guys in Tulsa to match my quote with no luck yet.


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## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (mad8vskillz)*

yeah brand snobs suckhttp://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Eric F4i (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (nyisles)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Do yourself a favor and smash your keyboard before you make an even bigger jackass out of yourself.[HR][/HR]​We need a certain CSi member to perform fore-head war on amper's PC.


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## TheCheeta (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (Eric F4i)*

<-- Jetta owner, hanging his head in shame that another Dub owner is giving us a bad name...
I love my little Jetta. It is a great car. But it would be a cold day in hell before I put it up against a Mustang. And I don't even like Mustangs. Hell, I don't even like Fords, but I know my limits... not a whole lotta cars I can tangle with in my VW.
Z06 a piece of crap?







That HAD to be a joke, right? Please tell me you were kidding?
Hand a Mustang its ass...


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## Jetta2.show (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (TheCheeta)*

Wow, this thread was lenghty...







I own a 2001 Jetta 2.0L automatic, yes automatic...and I love it!







I also know that a Mustang can spank my car any day...but hopefully once I get some engine mods I can at least keep up with it.







I am partial to VW's and European made cars, but that does not mean that there are not some pretty phukn' nuts cars out there made by other brands, such as Ford, Chevy, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, Toyota, etc.! Peace Out!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## daveg243 (Feb 28, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (uroryd)*

Wow what a thread....not locked yet huh.. Well let me say this the current Mustang Gt will smoke any new VW MKIV out of the box in a straight line period. With some suspension mods the Mustang would hand most MKIVs it's a$$. So would any GM LS1 or LT1 F-body car. The only car in this price range that stands a chance (stock vs. stock) is the WRX. *HOWEVER* the Mustang will not win at the dragstrip as it would explode halfway down the track while the TDI Golf driver waves goodbye toward the finish with both window regulators breaking from the blistering 17 second pass. *FORD = Fixing Our Recalls Daily *







Got Nawzzzz?







By the way neither Ford, GM or VW give a damn about you so don't sweat the brand loyalty nonsense.


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (daveg243)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Well let me say this the current Mustang Gt will smoke any new VW MKIV out of the box in a straight line period. .[HR][/HR]​Does that include the R32?

Serioulsy how did a thread about a vw and a mazda morph into a mustang GT vs VW Jetta monster?


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## daveg243 (Feb 28, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (gizmopop)*

Depends if the R32 ends up weighing 4000lbs I guess, but point taken. Then again tthe R32 is about as obtainable as a reliable Ford.


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## passaturbo (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (daveg243)*

Mustang is faster then Jetta 1.8t chipped at top end right??? READ AGAIN I said top end fellas. 

DOOOOUUUUUBBBT IT. Try and see!!! I've seen it few times. Top speed Stang might be faster but getting there......no frikin way!!!
I never said nothing about 1/4 between the two. So some of you here and in the other forum need to read the whole post not first few words!


[Modified by passaturbo, 3:55 AM 7-30-2002]


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (passaturbo)*

So if a mustang raced a Chipped 1.8t in say a 1 mile straight race you are saying that the Mustang would win the the 1/4 miles, then get passed for a while by the 1.8T and then the Mustang would pull back ahead later because of the higher top speed. 
OOOOOOK


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## vdubbed81 (Dec 14, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (99Silverbullet)*

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH........... *SHUT UP!!!!!!







*


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## allan r (Dec 30, 2000)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (vdubbed81)*

all you yahoos are giving the rest of us VDubbers a bad name! accept the fact that a VW is not as fast as a Mustang. Cripes, grow some balls. accept it. i didn't buy a VW because I wanted a Mustang killer. I would have got an LS1.







Throw $3K into a 1.8T and get a mid 13 if you can drive. Put $1K into a Mustang GT and see 12's easily.
This thread makes me wonder if the college educated vw owner stereotype is really true


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## 99Silverbullet (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Jetta vs Mazda Protege (allan r)*

Well anyway. 
I love the New Passat we got. Awsome car. Got it for 2% over invoice. Talked the Tulsa store into it so I didn't have to drive to Dallas. 
Silverstone Grey GLS all the options. 
Tint is first then Tip Chip and then maybe an APR or something later on.


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