# help with aba 16vt



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm looking to build an ABA 16vt to get 550 Hp+ I have been searching but nobody really gives good specifics on their motors that make 550+. So i need to know Compression ratio for the pistons. And who makes them. Im not sure if i can run aba pistons with bigger cams I know I'm going to be running lots of boost probably 30+ pounds. what cams should i be running in the car. The more info the better..


----------



## Bx V-dubber (Dec 17, 2010)

Pistons & rods, I went with IE drilled rods, 20mm w-pins & je pistons for abf. Compression will be @ 8.5:1. Have a 60 trim garret & have been told by several people I'll easily make 300-350whp @20-25 psi on a stock 16v head (provided getting stiffer springs to avoid valve contact @ high rpm). I would check out IE or auto tech for cams. Techtonics also has cams too. As far as info for building it, might have to talk to a few tuners or try to find/contact some of the guys on here for specifics. I also went with a bbm kit for the conversion instead of cannibalizing/sourcing a full 16v engine.:beer:


----------



## HendrikS (Apr 22, 2009)

For such a performance you should go to 8:1. Pistons JE or Woessner, rods doesn't really matter: IE, Pauter, Scat

cams should be your last option. first build the motor, choose a turbo and run it. when you know when the turbo starts spooling you can guess which cams would fit. I'd go for a mechanical head and the original ECU should also be changed. 

have you spend some thoughts about the gearbox?

I'm currently running 600+ on my Rallye Golf AWD. We are still in the process of mapping. 

cheers from Germany. 


Extrem Tapatalking


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm going to be run a 02a with a quaife for now.. when I get more $$$$ I do want to go awd


----------



## Bx V-dubber (Dec 17, 2010)

is this going to be a strictly drag or daily driver. i know a few guys that went my route and after head work went 580hp on a daily. not sure 8:1 compression would work smoothly for daily driving. but with 8:1 or 7.5:1, that's a great drag car!:beer:


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

What are you planning to do with this car? What fuel? What engine management?

What turbo are you planning to run? What turbine housing? What exhaust manifold, what intake manifold? Need to know before cams are discussed.

7.5:1 or 8:1 is too low, unless you are trying to set some kind of record on 93 octane pump. 

I would shoot for ~9:1 on a street car that is gonna run some pump unleaded. On drag cars we run 11:1plus (running 40+ psi boost). Proper engine management & tuning and good fuel is a prerequisite.


----------



## vwmaniac16vr6 (Nov 17, 2004)

The only 16v turbo I know making big power is a high compression 30psi car running on lugtronic and its front wheel drive. The car is still daily drive able. I'm not sure lower compression is the way to go. Also I believe its running on e85 or e100.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

vwmaniac16vr6 said:


> The only 16v turbo I know making big power is a high compression 30psi car running on lugtronic and its front wheel drive. The car is still daily drive able. I'm not sure lower compression is the way to go. Also I believe its running on e85 or e100.


Todd's car is now a 20v, but it was running a 16v with high compression and well over 30 psi on pump E85. Car was and is still running Lugtronic tuned by Kevin himself. 

There is another 16v car coming out this season with high compression and a 66mm Borg Warner turbo running Lugtronic on E85. Numbers should be good. :beer:


----------



## Bx V-dubber (Dec 17, 2010)

> vwmaniac16vr6
> 
> The only 16v turbo I know making big power is a high compression 30psi car running on lugtronic and its front wheel drive. The car is still daily drive able. I'm not sure lower compression is the way to go. Also I believe its running on e85 or e100.


now correct me if im wrong but i grew up the equation that lower compression made for better turbo running cars. I understand that higher compression is good for some drag cars & n/a cars as well. but if that car is a high compression boost beast.....isn't he tearing it down constantly to rebuild it. not trying to be an ass but imo that wouldn't be a daily driver. OP, you still haven't posted if this is gonna be a drag/daily yet.:beer:


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm going to be running megasquirt. Im not sure what Turbo yet probably t3/t4 I have not decided what brand yet or exactly what size. I need to do more research on that... Its not going to be a daily driver... more for fun and kick Honda guys ass. I like to drive it as much as I can I do live in Seattle I'm not going to drive it in the rain.


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

Will be running it on 93 most the time. I will have a tune set up for race gas 101 maybe 110 just for drag racing it. If I could get around 450hp on 93 I would be more then happy and 550+ HP on 101


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I would go with 9.5:1 or 9:1 if you can only run 93. If e85 is available can run higher. A lot also has to do with the tune. Some of the turbo knowledge is still relevant but some of it also isn't. You don't need 8:1 7:1 etc. and also you will make more power with big overlap cams contrary to popular belief.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

^^^:thumbup:


----------



## vwmaniac16vr6 (Nov 17, 2004)

The higher compression helps the car to have more usable power out of boost and with e85 is great for boost. Best to have forged internals to take the extra abuse when making over 350wheel on a 4cylinder could push more with ARP hardware but e85 would be a must. I'm not sure how the rods would handle the power on 16v/2.0 I know 1.8t rods are like tooth picks and are the first thing you want to do when making more power.


----------



## Bx V-dubber (Dec 17, 2010)

thanks for the info. so if i'm getting it right....9.1 or other would be good for a n/a off boost on a bt car.of course i assume some spark timing would be done as well. i know the older muscle cars lumped @ idle with lower compression until turbos kicked in.:beer:


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

If I run a 9:1 cr motor on 93 octane I can run 30+ lbs of boost or what ever it takes to hit my 450hp goal safely driving it all the time? Or is 8.5:1 bettler for me The Bottom end will have H beam rods arp rod bolts and arp main bolt.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Shanevw77 said:


> If I run a 9:1 cr motor on 93 octane I can run 30+ lbs of boost or what ever it takes to hit my 450hp goal safely driving it all the time? Or is 8.5:1 bettler for me The Bottom end will have H beam rods arp rod bolts and arp main bolt.


See my revised post below.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

Shanevw77 said:


> If I run a 9:1 cr motor on 93 octane I can run 30+ lbs of boost or what ever it takes to hit my 450hp goal safely driving it all the time? Or is 8.5:1 bettler for me The Bottom end will have H beam rods arp rod bolts and arp main bolt.


100% dependant on the tune, 30+psi is a LOT of boost and getting it dialed in will take a very experienced tuner familiar with that engine. 

Killa on here had a daily driven 16vt that was over 400hp on pump gas so it is possible, but it will take time and dedication to finding the right combination of parts to make it happen. whatever you do, budget probably 3 grand in dyno time to make the numbers you want to see.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Mark Morris said:


> You're not going to make 450 at the wheels on 93 octane, it's just unrealistic, trust me. I'm speaking from experience building crossflow turbos, not theory or what I have "read". If you wanna make that much power from a fuel out of a pump you are going to have to run E85.


Sorry, I got this thread confused with another about crossflow 8v engines. 450 whp is a pretty lofty goal on pump for a 16v, but it could be done with the right combo of parts. Forget about boost pressures, they are just numbers--you have to put together the right combo of parts for your intended goal.


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

That's why I started this post. So I know where to start with the aba 16v-t.


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

What head should I use 1.8 16v or 2.0 16v.


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Stock for stock, a 1.8 flows a hair more on the intake and the 2.0 hair more on the exhaust side. Whatever you can find in better condition is the realistic answer. There really isn't much difference, even though people tend to think the 1.8 is better based on old lore.


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

I have a good 1.8 16v head and a good 2.0 16v head. I'm trying to figure out with one I should have built for my build


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

Heres my most trusted and simple old 16v setup. Best time of 10.4? on slicks. car was a real street car back then. full interior, exhaust, only a roll bar at that time. 
aba/16v
stock obd1 crank
crower aba length rods with small wrist pins
shelf wiseco all motor 11:1 16v pistons
arp hardware throughout
stock port 1.8 16v head with tt valve springs stock cams, retainers etc...
race craft intake and exhaust manifold
precision 6262 t3 .63 exhaust housing
precision 600hp intercooler
lugtronic ecu w/ 1600 bosch injectors on e85

edit: this same short block went 9s a year later no rebuild(then it died)

things kinda got outta control after that.


----------



## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

not to thread jack, but i'm about to finish up my 16/aba. Aba block is staying stock. Some have expressed concerns about valve+piston contact under boost. I'm planning on running about 15 daily. Would it be beneficial to either advance or retard the cam timing by 1 degree to try and prevent contact?


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

turbodub said:


> things kinda got outta control after that.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

Shanevw77 said:


> What head should I use 1.8 16v or 2.0 16v.


the 1.8 will allow for more metal to be shaped, but in all reality, neither will be more beneficial than the other once some basic porting is done. I have a friend who does a mild port job for a great price, and it really cleans things up. His head with 276 cams, 50mm intake, 12:1 compression puts down 180whp in our race rabbit, and that is a totally streetable engine aside from the race gas mix we use to add safety 



snikfrits said:


> not to thread jack, but i'm about to finish up my 16/aba. Aba block is staying stock. Some have expressed concerns about valve+piston contact under boost. I'm planning on running about 15 daily. Would it be beneficial to either advance or retard the cam timing by 1 degree to try and prevent contact?


If you don't have valve contact under normal running, you wont run into it under boost. So no, do not change the cam timing. If you turn the engine over by hand and the valves hit, you need to take the engine apart and figure out why.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodub said:


> Heres my most trusted and simple old 16v setup. Best time of 10.4? on slicks. car was a real street car back then. full interior, exhaust, only a roll bar at that time.
> aba/16v
> stock obd1 crank
> crower aba length rods with small wrist pins
> ...


See this is why boost and e85 are awesome, you just run a strong engine and crank the boost until either the engine blows up or you make really good hp :laugh:


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

So with e85 u can run a run a higher compression ratio and all u need is way bigger injectors? That's the big difference between pump gas and e85 When you're building a turbo motor


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

Where do you get ABA pistons with the release cut for the 16v head I'm guessing I'm going to need 11:1 ABA pistons to get 9:1 with the 16v head


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

Shanevw77 said:


> Where do you get ABA pistons with the release cut for the 16v head I'm guessing I'm going to need 11:1 ABA pistons to get 9:1 with the 16v head


integrated engineering has them


----------



## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

Shanevw77 said:


> Where do you get ABA pistons with the release cut for the 16v head I'm guessing I'm going to need 11:1 ABA pistons to get 9:1 with the 16v head



you can have reliefs cut into stock pistons if you want,but any "abf" piston will come close to advertised CR on a aba-16v and have the proper valve reliefs.I highly recommend anyone running a aba 16v with aba pistons to clearance check their motor.The 16v has been around a long time and chances are the head has been resurfaced a time or 2 in its life,all in all it is cheap insurance.

Porting is key to releasing big numbers from a 16v imo,the way the head flows you can only cram so much into them before reaching a point of diminishing returns..There is more to making HP then boost alone


----------



## _muppet_ (Aug 5, 2004)

turbodub said:


> Heres my most trusted and simple old 16v setup. Best time of 10.4? on slicks. car was a real street car back then. full interior, exhaust, only a roll bar at that time.
> aba/16v
> stock obd1 crank
> crower aba length rods with small wrist pins
> ...


Saw you run that setup at the classic years ago. :thumbup:


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

What Throttle cable works with a 16v short runner intake manifold with a obd1 vr6 throttle body


----------



## EdDzZzZz (Mar 7, 2010)

Shane u want my advice use google as ur friend it will help u a lot to clarify things

Sent from my SGH-T999V using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## EdDzZzZz (Mar 7, 2010)

And goodluck with ur built mine is almost done I'll let u knw how it goes 

Sent from my SGH-T999V using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## Bx V-dubber (Dec 17, 2010)

I assumed that the cable which came with that throttle body would work.


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

All the ones I have are to short


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

Shanevw77 said:


> All the ones I have are to short


mk3 vr6


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6062433-Feature-Spotlight-June-Corrados-PNW 

I run 25psi on pump gas as a daily. Stock head with no work at all just TT cams and springs 
makes 425WHP and 361WTQ on 92 octane. Very reliable at 8.5:1 comp. 
Come down to Portland and I'll let you take it for a drive. 


Question for Mark Morris 
At 11.1:1+ and 40+psi how do you keep the candles lit? 
what is the ignition setup?


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Bosch Motorsports 2x2 coil, Lugtronic. 50++psi


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

The problem with these threads is, people ask how to make 400 hp, and the advice from people making 500-600-700 hp gets buried in BS by people who haven't done it. 
Nitpicking about compression, turbos, etc. Find someone who has done it and listen to them.


----------



## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

lugnuts said:


> The problem with these threads is, people ask how to make 400 hp, and the advice from people making 500-600-700 hp gets buried in BS by people who haven't done it.
> Nitpicking about compression, turbos, etc. Find someone who has done it and listen to them.


 
Solid advice :thumbup:


----------



## Shanevw77 (Jul 23, 2010)

I would love to take it for a drive if I get down that way. Are you going to the Leavenworth gtg by any chance? If I have any questions with My build do you mind if I PM you with my questions.


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

lugnuts said:


> The problem with these threads is, people ask how to make 400 hp, and the advice from people making 500-600-700 hp gets buried in BS by people who haven't done it.
> Nitpicking about compression, turbos, etc. Find someone who has done it and listen to them.


 Agreed 
I make over 400whp so I qualifie. Getting information out of real players making 500-600-700hp is next to impossible. nobody want to share there tunes and build secrets. there are a few exceptions[Radoboy] 

Do you really think 500-600-700 is reasonable on a 4 cyl unibody* daily driven street car*? 
IMO I think it's dangerous and requires a lot of maintenance. 

I won't be going to Leavenworth cruise But any time you make it to Portland I will make time for you to try it out, you can see what I mean about light unibody cars and massive whp. 

:beer::beer:


----------



## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Something that is sometimes neglected by the aba/16vT builder is thinking about the transmission. Unfortunately, that was I! Instead of putting my stock creation to the test at 20-25 psi, i'll have to set it to 10psi and call it a day. 020 transmission, new stock clutch, and no money for a diff.


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

The trans setup I have come to like is 02A w/ CCM 1 2 &3 gears from a VR6 trans. Also the carrier bearing housing if beefier so use it also. it just bolts into a 4cyl trans. I would get a 3.94 [email protected] from a 16v trans. this allows for a shorter ratio allowing you to get threw the gear quicker. less load on the motor/clutch/PP/axles. it will also keep you in the power band on a higher revving 16v motor. An LSD is a must. 
:beer::beer:


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

REPOMAN said:


> Agreed
> I make over 400whp so I qualifie. Getting information out of real players making 500-600-700hp is next to impossible. nobody want to share there tunes and build secrets. there are a few exceptions[Radoboy]
> 
> Do you really think 500-600-700 is reasonable on a 4 cyl unibody* daily driven street car*?
> ...


 next to impossible? you have pretty much all the info you would need to go 9's in a 16v. go 10's daily. the biggest secret most of us have is a really good tuner and no you are not going to get the hard earned data from us. ask your tuner/software supplier maybe they will give you their secrets 

btw if you are looking for a trans to go fast with and hold any real power we have all said in the past either buy a ap gearset or sqs.


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

> 

That's ridiculous. We post more (useful) info here than anyone. All of our specs are on my website, have been for years. We answer your same 5 questions over and over again and then lose interest. 
Ask Brien (Radoboy) or any of my other customers, it's all you can do to get me to shut the F up when talking about these cars most of the time. 

I'm not just going to have over ecu maps. 1) Because you blow up a lot anyway and you'll blame me and 2) because the tunes are the result of my customers and my hard work/time/money. 

Become a customer and see what happens. You'll get a 9 second basemap and then there's no excuses. 

If your current system isn't getting the job done, scrap it and join the winning team. 

Ask Aaron, he will tell you. Oh yeah, you took a crack at me about remote tuning his car one time, forget it. Good luck.


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

lugnuts said:


> >
> 
> That's ridiculous. We post more (useful) info here than anyone. All of our specs are on my website, have been for years. We answer your same 5 questions over and over again and then lose interest.
> Ask Brien (Radoboy) or any of my other customers,
> ...


----------



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

No idea who's car that is. 
The one I referred to is a cherry MK2 VR6 Jetta, nothing cut, 2800#, was stock motor with rod bolts last year when it went 11.36, 110 octane, never been on a dyno just like 80% of my customer's cars. Stock trans and single plate clutch. 
Not trying to act hot sh!t, just saying that we answer people's questions.


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

Right on that's cool. 
I do enjoy reading about your endeavors. 
OP 
Your goal is doable and has been done many times. I have laid out 1 way of getting there. 
My best advice is set a goal but don't get obsessed over it and neglect the most important thing in life, Family and friends. 

building a 400+ hp 4 cyl is going cost $$$$, cutting corners will cost you more. if some one is faster than you, they cut less corners. 

keep up on maintainence, check for loose bolts often, make responcable dessisions on the street this can save your life. 

:beer::beer:


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

REPOMAN said:


> BTW
> just because your **** doesn't stink and you have the fastest VW's in the U.S you shouldn't be a Douche to every one on the Vortex because there vw expierence isn't as fast or powerful as yours.
> Just saying


 Don, nobody is going around acting holy. It gets tiring when all people do is argue and either say something is not possible or challenge advice that has been tested against theory and hearsay. 

At the end of the day Kevin does this for a living-- this isn't his hobby or side job, it's his livelihood. I think he shares a lot of free information. Some appreciate it, expect everything on a silver platter. 

I think he has the right to get a little grumpy from time-to-time when the above is considered.


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

We are all good. 
:beer::beer:


----------



## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

:thumbup:


----------



## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

Turbo choices for 400-500whp on a vw 16v. a good match for the head flow is a PT6262 or a 
GT3076 for 400whp range 
A gt35 if you want 500-600whp with the bigger turbo you shorten your power band[higher spool up] but make more power. 

The new GTX is more efficient then the GT series. You can't go wrong with the quality of Garrett Turbo's They do cost more. a dual cooled/ dual ceramic ball bearing turbo is more daily friendly due to you don't have to let it cool down before you turn the key off. 

Always maximize power within the rpm band where the engine spends most it's time. 
The OEM 16v power band is 4k to7.5k this can be altered and widened with the right parts. Intake manifold, exhaust, Cams. 

Port velocity will improve cylinder filling more efficiently especially at and below peak torque 
than big flow numbers generated by large slow moving ports. 

A strong cylinder head will always make more power even if poorly matched with the cam. A weak 
cylinder head matched with an optimized cam will never perform as well. 

Intake runner length is one of the critical decisions in engine building since it 
contributes significantly to the shape of the power curve. 

Durability is as important as speed and any modification that jeopardizes reliability in exchange for power is foolish. 

In the final analysis the question of Bore vs Stroke is actually one of torque vs horsepower. 
The ideal racing engine would produce a lot of torque in the mid range crank speeds and a lot of horsepower at high crank speeds. 

Reducing the compression ratio or using higher octane fuel are the two best ways to increase power on a turbocharged/supercharged engine. 
If you drive on the street, you pretty well have to use pump fuel. In this case, you may want to fit some lower compression pistons. 
Pistons and spark plugs are often the first parts in the engine to suffer from the effects of overpressure and over temperature conditions. 
A high output engine should always be fitted with colder spark plugs. NGK BRKE7 EIX is common on 16v T motors. 

Forged pistons, there are wide variations between forged pistons. On a turbocharged application, temperatures and pressures will far exceed anything seen on a naturally aspirated engine. 
Because the specific output is higher, the rate of energy release is higher. Piston dome temperatures can run between 450 and 550 degrees F. 
Most aluminum alloys have lost over half of their strength at 400F. Turbo pistons need to have thick upper sections to be able to dissipate heat faster to the skirts and cylinder walls to keep dome temperatures down to safe limits. 
High silicon pistons [Wossner] [Ross] can be fitted tighter because of their lower expansion rates for less rattling when cold but because they are more brittle, they don't stand as much detonation as a low silicon pistons[JE]. 

Frankly there are very few high compression turbo engines running on pump fuel lasting more than a month before they fail. This is why you don't see any high power factory turbo cars with 10 to 1 CRs. Stick to under 8.5 CRs and you will make more power and have higher reliability. 

If you go higher Comp ratio you need to commit to E85 or Water Meth. you will make more power with less turbo CFM with higher Comp ratio. the trade off is higher combustion chamber pressure/Heat which is why E85 works great on higher comp engines. 

The down side to E85 is availability/consistency/and 30% more volume required.[ this means going to the gas station twice as often] there are other fuel system requirements like no neoprene rubber in the fuel tank due to the high alcohol content melting it. 

with this information you need to make some choices to move forward on your build.


----------

