# Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU???



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

So what if I kept my 310s and stuck in the EIP turbo chip and ran it with an FMU and a cis pump+ the larger maf housing? Wouldn't that strain the injectors less? Is this worth trying? I could get either the 3" or the 3.5" maf housing.


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## xXx TURBO (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

damn that's a lot of piggy back stuff








i thought the point of the chip and injectors was to not have the FMU?
if ou want more fuel run the chip and like 440cc injectors and a big ass maf sensor


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

Tricking the Motronic ECU with either a larger MAF housing or a voltage calibrator on the MAF output lines results in a buck identical to that of the ATP 310cc chip. You know what that feels like, don't you?


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Tricking the Motronic ECU with either a larger MAF housing or a voltage calibrator on the MAF output lines results in a buck identical to that of the ATP 310cc chip. You know what that feels like, don't you?







[HR][/HR]​dammit


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

My favorite part about the ATP chip is when I downshift and punch it and it goes dead lean at about 4200 rpm, right when it's suppposed to go into open loop.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

That's quite a feature.


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

you just listed about 500-700 of piggyback stuff, save the extra 300 and get sds


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

What you could try is running 24# injectors at 3 bar. The ECU should be able to adapt to this without a special large injector chip. You'll be able to squeeze out quite a bit more fuel that way with the FMU.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (evoeone)*

quote:[HR][/HR]you just listed about 500-700 of piggyback stuff, save the extra 300 and get sds [HR][/HR]​I also have a TecII.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

No 'REAL' need for EIP Chip and absolutley no need for FMU.
Just install the injectros and MAF housing and a 1:1 adjustable regulator.
as for costs: get NEW injectors from summit racing, ACCEL #150630 ~$250
make your own housing if you can, I did. (couldn't buy one 1.5-2 yrs ago)
I have no complaints.....
I have 30# injectors, stock chip, 3.5" MAF housing. 3 bar reg.
Oh yeah, I also have a home made AFC that modifies the MAF signal
silightly, (never more than 5-8%) to flatten out the fuel curve based on
MAP and MAF in a 2d 10x10 table. This thing adds MAF signal at high vacuum
to avoid the bucking issue.
Datalogged over x-mas break... at 7-8 psi I am running 85-87% duty cycle
on the injectors on the top end. (I guess its time for larger injectors)
A/F ratio is 12-12.6 all the way up. Not as smooth as I would like it, but in the spring I hook up some data acquistion stuff and collect better data
Ignition timing is nice (18-20 Deg BTDC) on the top end. 
I am basically at the 'end' of the fuel system as I have put together.
Try this guys: (as and experiment) set-up the car with the larger MAF
and 30# injectors and unplug the front O2 sensor, then 'clear codes'
on the ECU to re-set the longterm fuel trims to zero. Use a 'standard'
(1:1) adjustable regulator to fine tune slightly, i.e. it'll move the entire
fuel curve. 
I have found (on my car, yours maybe different) that the ECU tends to 
lean out my set-up a little not much when ruuning closed loop,
say 5-7%, this exaggerates 
the bucking issue and doesn't allow the car to run rich enough on 
the top end for my taste (12-12.5). So I tuned the car with my Motec PLM
and run open loop with no front O2.
Oh yeah, I just got my Bildon Motorsport 3pc. head gasket, so I guess I'll need
some bigger injectors when I turn up the boost. Wooo Hooo !
My next project: Write my own chips.
How you ask?
look here: 
http://www.dimsport.com
http://www.evc.de
I would like to start a thread/discussion of ECU hacking. I want to decript 
the maps on the chip, checksums, map locations ect.
so we can all make our own chips. The honda guys have done this 
already and it's 'public' on the internet.

Jeffrey Atwood


[Modified by Jefnes3, 2:27 PM 1-9-2003]


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## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

wow man your crazy....







Where is your setup getting its MAP signal? I would also like to burn these little PLCC chips myself (OBD2). I am not familar with the AFC you are talking about or the MAF housing...I'll have to do some searching, but that sounds nice. I as well as many others have turbines to slap on but I want to run low cost Motronic fuel system...and I think it can be done VERY WELL if we could all write our own chips and tune with the butt dyno and mad guages/VAG-COM


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (PAGTI91)*

My 'calibrator' adjusts the MAF signal based on a 2D lookup table.
the table is 10 x 10 based (with interpolation, 100 steps. (10bit a/d = 1024) )
on MAF signal (0-5V) and a Pressure sensor(0-5v) (-15 to 10 psi, i.e. 0 = atmosphere)I added myself. 
I did this so I wouldn have to hack into any stock wiring and I can remove it
at will if it should crap out. Ive been running it for 6-8 months now, no
issues to date.
I built it and programmed it myself. Runs on a PIC 16F873. Wrote the code in C.
I also made my MAF housing. 
Tuning works like this:
Datalog MAF and MAP and A/F ratio from Motec PLM.
adjust table
re-program controller
repeat until A/F is where I want it, when I want it. like 14.7 under vacuum/cruze
13.0 at WOT no boost, 12.4 WOT with boost.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

wow man thats cool. I have been thinking about buying a book on the M68HC11 microcontroller. I need to learn more about them. I would like to get digi-1 secrets but I am slightly lazy and there is no help out there as to how VW uses the M68HC11 in the Corrado.
Your calibrator using the PIC 16F873 is cool. I wanna control Motronic M5.9 too, that would be great...YGIM...


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (PAGTI91)*

You guys lost me,good stuff.I want to learn more. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gifI too would like a better fuel setup,but the only thing i know how to do is go out buy a standalone.Engine work is not a problem,but i have no clue about electronics


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

Injectors + MAF housing = buck buck buck, but it will work. Timing may be a little off, and it won't switch to open loop correctly, and the air/fuel will be all over the place (see dyno below), but the car will drive.










[Modified by Marty, 5:10 PM 1-9-2003]


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

Marty,
is your car 'up' yet?
Just unplug it (O2 sensor) and go open loop all day long.
BTW: I have some chip burning tools now, I need to speak with you.
email me a phone # I can reach you at this evening. (approx 2 hours)
Jeffrey Atwood


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

Ok so I just got a dyno sesion with a wide ban. Could some one post a GOOD dyno with wide band showing what an ideal graph would look like. I am running to rich between 3300 rpm and 5300 rpm.. the ration dips a tad below 10 then climbs back up into the to a about 11.4 from 5000 rpm to 5500 rpm.
Plus the rev limit was set at 5700 rpm not 6700..?
I will get these scaned and posted as soon as I can. This is the OBD1 atp chip with accel 310 cc injectors..
I wonder what would happen if I dropped in the 3bar instead of the 4bar..? 
Can some one explain what might happen going to a smaller fpr..?


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Scooter98144)*

I thought the ATP chip for obd1 was perfect







. Dammit, just put on a 12psi pulley to lean it out a bit.
Seriously though, that sucks, I thought your problems were all taken care of


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Just unplug it (O2 sensor) and go open loop all day long.[HR][/HR]​You're kidding right? C'mon, mister engineer.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Scooter98144)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ok so I just got a dyno sesion with a wide ban. Could some one post a GOOD dyno with wide band showing what an ideal graph would look like. I am running to rich between 3300 rpm and 5300 rpm.. the ration dips a tad below 10 then climbs back up into the to a about 11.4 from 5000 rpm to 5500 rpm.[HR][/HR]​What is your A/F ratio up towards redline? Can you post the curve? Or give datapoints every 500 RPM or so.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Scooter98144)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
I wonder what would happen if I dropped in the 3bar instead of the 4bar..? 
Can some one explain what might happen going to a smaller fpr..?
[HR][/HR]​Ok here we go.
IF (REALLY BIG IF) you change NOTHING else AND your ECU maintains
the SAME long term fuel correction(s) that it had before you change the pressure
regulator here is what MIGHT happen: use this at your own risk.
Switching from a 4 bar to a 3 bar regulator you will lean the motor out
by roughly 13.4%. 
so your 10 A/F will become 11.4
and your 11.4 will become 13.16
MY OPINOIN:
you will notice a power increase as you are leaning the motor in the right
direction. Best power is usually made at an A/F of 13.0 to 13.3. This will
make the most power, but its the 'limit' and not reliable in the long run
unless you are running NA. So the typical 'best' A/F for FI 
is 12.0 to 12.5 because the extra fuel adds some protection 
with a small loss in power.
DISCLAIMER:
Be Careful and you are on your own....
these word are just my opinion use at your own risk
Jeffrey Atwood BSME


[Modified by Jefnes3, 3:51 AM 1-10-2003]


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

yawn!Lets see some real numbers from all your jibber jabber tech talk.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Bad Habit)*

ok mr DUM AS,
you want numbers:
how about a Honda B16A Turbo.
I built it, I tuned it.
Sure I blew it up 2 times before I got it right, but I got right ....
333 whp @ 7800 rpm 
246 ft/lbs @ 5500 rpm
on 18 psi.
Oh yeah, its passed CT emmisions running Open Loop. 
I am currently building my VR6 to make over 300 whp. I will do it and
not for your amusement. (I'm currently around 260 whp)
You try and make over 300 whp on ANYTHING, don't buy, don't rent it,
when you can make 200 whp/L on an engine I'll listen to you.
Until then leave the tech stuff to those of us DOING it , and keep your
useless comments to yourself.
Jeffrey Atwood 'equal opportunity tuner'


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ok mr DUM AS,
you want numbers:
how about a Honda B16A Turbo.
I built it, I tuned it.
Sure I blew it up 2 times before I got it right, but I got right ....
333 whp @ 7800 rpm 
246 ft/lbs @ 5500 rpm
on 18 psi.
Oh yeah, its passed CT emmisions running Open Loop. 
I am currently building my VR6 to make over 300 whp. I will do it and
not for your amusement. (I'm currently around 260 whp)
You try and make over 300 whp on ANYTHING, don't buy, don't rent it,
when you can make 200 whp/L on an engine I'll listen to you.
Until then leave the tech stuff to those of us DOING it , and keep your
useless comments to yourself.
Jeffrey Atwood 'equal opportunity tuner'[HR][/HR]​Somebody got told.


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

Will do my best at getting them scanned tomarow and posted. Or at least a link to them. So max power was 206 hp @ 4700 rpm torq was 206 @ 5700.. but the rev limiter was kicking in. For some reason this chip had the rev limit set to 5700 rpm.
The torq was pretty flat from 5100 to 5700 rpm.
Here is some of the air ratio numbers as well.

2500 13
2700 12
3000 11.7
3330 10
4000 10
4600 10
4800 10.7
5000 11.2
5300 11.4
5500 11.2
5600 10.8
5700 10.8

When I get the graphs posted you will see that as it hit 4800 rpm it started to knock as the power was pulled down and stayed pretty flat till red line. This is were the topic of a blow off valve comes in. and also a better cold air in take.? 
Or a colder plug. Stop buying Arco gas..LOL 
So I guess the next step is to Email these to ATP and have a 3rd chip burned and see how it runs. 
P.S I kind of like the 12 PSI pulley idea as well...Any one want to comment on that some more.?
Were do I get one..


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Scooter98144)*

Change the reg from 4 bar to 3 bar to lean you out a little.
You have too much fuel now.
or just like you said, get a new chip.
If you are truly pining, there may be other issues.
Possibilities:
Too much ignition advance
Intake temps too high
Fuel octane too low
Stock temp range spark plugs, try 1-2 steps colder.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

I thought you had the chip in for a while now scooter? Did you just notice the 5700 rev limiter. And I thought you said the car was alot more powerful? If its alot more powerful and you only put down 206, what were you making before














Are you having some serious belt slippage or something, I dunno man.
I say start a new post for the topic cause we kinda hijacked this guys post


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Chill jefnes3,my 2.0 liter puts down more ponies then your vr6 and i have had a lame piggy back fmu and a stock chip,hahaha


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

Where's the dyno?


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Marty)*

A 2.0 at 17psi should be making like 240whp, similar to a 1.8t.


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

my MAF is just unplugged, seems to work fine!


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Gerapudo)*

I just tried driving for about an hour with the MAF unplugged, feels like I lost about 50hp on the top end.


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

ya i feel that too, but i also have a .48 T3 turbine http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
got the standard 60-1 sittin my room.
but i buck if i have it plugged in! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (Gerapudo)*

Here is a link to the dyno showing air/fuel and power. 
[http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/scooter98144/lst?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dynoplots&.view=t/IMG] 

I hope it works. it is about a 450k file.
Take a look folks and say something smart..LOL


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Gerapudo)*

I don't get bucking, I just go lean randomly under full throttle after a downshift.


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

i'll be wide open and it will be like i let off the gas fully and then got back on full.
Its very radical, cause its 
full gas - fully closed - full gas
thats with out me moving the petal off the floor







no good
any gear, through the whole RPM range too.


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

240 to the wheels maybe,no dyno sheet to prove it but a buddy of mine was putting that down with a little more then half the boost.


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

i know i dont trust G-tech but i layed down 263 on it, and thats at 2900 lbs. (the thing in the door says like 2750 but...) i thought if i over shot it it would be more mind easy)
thats 9psi on a VR.
and a crazy small turbo.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I don't get bucking, I just go lean randomly under full throttle after a downshift.[HR][/HR]​Are you running an EIP chip / inline pump / fmu now? How does it compare to the ATP chip?


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

quote:[HR][/HR]A 2.0 at 17psi should be making like 240whp, similar to a 1.8t. [HR][/HR]​
My motor still has 10 to 1 comp.Common knowledge would tell you i have a little more then 240 horses http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]A 2.0 at 17psi should be making like 240whp, similar to a 1.8t. 

My motor still has 10 to 1 comp.Common knowledge would tell you i have a little more then 240 horses http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif [HR][/HR]​Not really... Get dynoed you cheap bastard.


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

hahahaha,iam a cheap bastard


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## PineappleMonkey (Mar 2, 2000)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

Lesson learned: VR6 chips suck for #30s injectors.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Chill jefnes3,my 2.0 liter puts down more ponies then your vr6 and i have had a lame piggy back fmu and a stock chip,hahaha
[HR][/HR]​Oh yeah, why don't you follow your own advice and show us YOUR numbers?
I'll bet you CASH that my VR6 makes more than your 2.0 AND gets better gas 
mileage when cruzing...
I KNOW my 1.6 already does....
anytime my man.....

Jeffrey Atwood


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

oing to waterfest?iam.I believe they have a quarter mile there.I will be in a green Jetta 3 with bbs rsII's and some porsche recaro's.I will run you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

sorry,
I don't mean to single you out or start any crap.
I am just tired trying to have an info-gathering/sharing
topic here on the vortex only to have someone drop 
some 'my sausage is bigger than yours'
comment, like they know all there is 
to know and that all the theory stuff is useless....
If you have some contructive comments then by all means,
please share....
Jeffrey Atwood


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

"I don't believe in equations."


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Marty)*

How about the Bernouli type...








Jeffrey Atwood


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

"I don't believe in equations." <-- that's just the lamest response I've gotten on a forum. But "tech jibber jabber" by Mr. DUM AS was pretty good too.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Marty)*

Yeah, I remember reading that one....


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

It is all a bunch of jibberish.What kind of real world use does that all have.Horsepower is made in the motors,yes mangement is important but why not save the headache and let electromotive or the equivilent take care of that for you?Use your brain power for something else like figuring out a cure for cancer http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif And who r u calling mr dum?,im the guy who is probably running more boost then all of you with a STOCK CHIP and an FMU.Who is dumb again with your special written chips and what have you.hahahahahahahaha


























[Modified by Bad Habit, 6:16 AM 1-12-2003]


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]It is all a bunch of jibberish.What kind of real world use does that all have.
[Modified by Bad Habit, 6:16 AM 1-12-2003][HR][/HR]​Well let me tell you...
I am currently running the STOCK chip as well with NO FMU.
I made my own large MAF housing and installed larger injectors.
I made my own 'calibrator' that 'fiddles' with the MAF signal
to fine tune the fueling. 
You will note that the olther guys have little
'anoying' driving issues that just adding injectors and an MAF can't
fix by themselves. 
My car has NONE of their issues, and a MUCH flatter A/F curve.
My cruzing A/F is between 14.8 and 13.8 ALL the time.
My A/F at idle is 14.6-14.8.
At WOT my A/F stays between 12.0-13.0 ALL the time, every time.
Note to Marty: This is why I run without a front O2. I have more consistent
A/F ratios without it... 
I am just waiting for better weather, (spring time) to flatten the A/F
curves the way they should be by datalogging and modifying my
'calibrator' table...
This, my fiend is what real world use all of this has...I don't have to pay
someone to tune my car, nor do I have to settle for adjusting
the entire fuel curve with 'tweaking' of just one or two screws...
You do realize that the increase in 
flow of a fluid through and orifice is proportional to the SQUARE 
of th increase in pressure?
simply: to double the flow through your injectors you need 
FOUR times the pressure. This is why RRPR's aren't the 'best'
solution. 
This is what 'real world' use all this 'jibberish' has.

Jeffrey Atwood


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BoostedBannana (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

BadHabit who do you think you are talkin like your poop don't stink and you ain't got nothing to back it up..
Hell yea I and some of my friends talk poop... but we got the numbers and facts to back it up..
You say all this how your 2.0 is faster then a vr6 turbo and how u run so much boost..with a stock chip and fmu your the one who is dumb cause i guarantee your car runs like ass.
And your bragging about having some HEAVY ass recaro seats and some HEAVY ass bbs rims when you talkin about drag racing... right there you get the big ole Internet Racer label....
How about you show me a timeslip or a break down of your 1/4 mile run... cause otherwise your car is SLOW... and your an internet racer like most others .
Tim


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## Gerapudo (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (BoostedBannana)*

this is the closest thing to road rage you guys will get!


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (Gerapudo)*

16v Po boy took the pic.Ask him how my car runs.it certainly does not trun like ass that is for sure.You are right no time slips as i throw them away at the end of the day,but we are going to Rockingham this weekend.We'll check em out as i have not been to the track in some time.What do you run tough guy?you dont know what i have and what i dont have.I tell you right now i have a lot more then some lame low boost chip.I dont rely on a computer to make horsepower.Im not some punk 23 year that has mommy and daddies money to build cars.Been doing motor swaps on cars b4 you were even messing with cars little boy.I might be in NC now but im from where doing out VWs originated.Not from some arm pit.




[Modified by Bad Habit, 4:32 PM 1-12-2003]


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## BoostedBannana (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]16v Po boy took the pic.Ask him how my car runs.it certainly does not trun like ass that is for sure.You are right no time slips as i throw them away at the end of the day,but we are going to Rockingham this weekend.We'll check em out as i have not been to the track in some time.What do you run tough guy?you dont know what i have and what i dont have.I tell you right now i have a lot more then some lame low boost chip.I dont rely on a computer to make horsepower.Im not some punk 23 year that has mommy and daddies money to build cars.Been doing motor swaps on cars b4 you were even messing with cars little boy.I might be in NC now but im from where doing out VWs originated.Not from some arm pit.
[Modified by Bad Habit, 4:32 PM 1-12-2003][HR][/HR]​Well there genious.. just cause you throw out your slips doesn't mean you can't post a time... It doesn't take a brain surgeon to remeber your 60ft time, e/t and trap speed.. but of couse internet racers have a tough time remebering that since they don't exist. I mean i remeber what i ran on runs 3-4 years ago.
Just cause 16v po boy thinks your car runs strong what other fast cars has he been in to compare... I can show you people who think my car was fast when it went 13's... was it NO. 
As for what i run... Reading is one of the first things you should have learned since it's right there in my sig.. but since thats too obvious for ya it's 12.22 @ 119.46 w/2.046 60ft. And if mommie and daddy paid for my car and my mods. I wouldn't still be running a stock block,stock injectors,stock ecu,eip chip and fmu... I'd have a built motor with bigger turbo and stand alone and a E46 M3 as my daily driver... but I'm just a poor 23 year old punk ass that knows how to drive...
Where as your some 35yr old who thinks he knows more just cause you've been around longer, who brags about running a stock chip and fmu thinking it's better when all it is, is the poor mans temporary solution. And has no proof to back up any of your internet racing claims...
Any time you wanna challenge me just lemme know. And if you are at waterfest you better be running 11's...
Tim


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (BoostedBannana)*

If you are running 11's then you are quicker then me hands down.I am sure if i weighed a bit less then 3300 lbs i would shave some time off.Could you run 11's in a full weight Jetta?No.My car is a street driven automobile wih a littel fun attached.If i were to build an all out drag car it sure wouldn't be vw.I had a 62 Pontiac Ventura with a 421 Super duty that would run 11's crossing at 124 miles an hour,STREETABLE.Big deal http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## BoostedBannana (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

LMAO, for someone who knows says you know alot about VWs you keep posting idiotic facts.
First off a full weight VR6 jetta w/200lbs driver weighs 3080lbs.
A 2.0 is about 100-150lbs lighter then a vr6. so your lookin at 2930-2980lbs given that you weigh 200lbs my guess is your lighter. So ain't no way no how your car is even close to 3300lbs.
Take out the spare tire and tools your lookin at 2900lbs even.
Now you take my DAILY DRIVER GTI, that has my CAR WEIGHT in my signature 2840lbs w/driver. So look I'm all of what 60lbs lighter then your car. 
I'd be ashamed if i had a full race vr6 turbo that ran only high 11's...
Our 3/4 race A2 gti which is still a street car goes 10.81 @ 127.6 on stock block,injectors,eip chip and fmu ... So again you don't have anything to back up that crap you were slinging...
And your right a 11sec streetable Domestic car is nothing special they are more then a dime a dozen... tell me how many 11sec vw's you know of? then tell me how many of them are street cars... Ok... what i thought.
So go do some homework before you start trying to call other people idiots and talkin like you know everything.
Tim


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (BoostedBannana)*

Hmm...well i guess the local garbage dumps scales are off then.I really dont think an 11 sec. street car is a dime a dozen.The domestic you are talking trash about is a car you will never see in your life.ALuminum fenders,bumper,hood.John Sidwell curved distributor.Fully balanced bottom end with true forged pistons 12:1 comp,full head work.factory side dump,dual 550's.Fully built trans from hydromotive out of Chicago,4.11 rear.580 horse w/600 ft lbs all on pump gas.500 of these cars were built.I may not know much but i know more then you abot making horepower little boy.Hahahahahaha.Now get a riled up and start talking your trash again.


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## BoostedBannana (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Hmm...well i guess the local garbage dumps scales are off then.I really dont think an 11 sec. street car is a dime a dozen.The domestic you are talking trash about is a car you will never see in your life.ALuminum fenders,bumper,hood.John Sidwell curved distributor.Fully balanced bottom end with true forged pistons 12:1 comp,full head work.factory side dump,dual 550's.Fully built trans from hydromotive out of Chicago,4.11 rear.580 horse w/600 ft lbs all on pump gas.500 of these cars were built.I may not know much but i know more then you abot making horepower little boy.Hahahahahaha.Now get a riled up and start talking your trash again.[HR][/HR]​Ut oh you know more about making horsepower in a DOMESTIC, something i have never trying to learn about... yup way to compare apples and oranges... How about you show me your vdub making power...
Also where are i talkin trash about the rarity of your particular car? I don't see any where... but saying 11sec street domestics are a dime a dozen...
I can go out at any time in my area and meet with 15 11second domestics...
You take a LS1 w/gears/heads and cams/e/t streets you got 11's or you take a LS1 with gears/whisper lid/exhaust/e/t streets and say 100shot and you got 11's...
We have 10sec street driven vettes.VW's,Supras,F-bodys.... so not sure what your talkin about maybe in your neck of the woods but in the tristate area they area a dime a dozen
Yup, you just keep calling me little boy and makin comments like that but guess what i'm still faster so obviously i'm doin something better then you...


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## vento 95 GL (May 25, 1999)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Datalogged over x-mas break... at 7-8 psi I am running 85-87% duty cycle
on the injectors on the top end. (I guess its time for larger injectors)
A/F ratio is 12-12.6 all the way up. Not as smooth as I would like it, but in the spring I hook up some data acquistion stuff and collect better data
Ignition timing is nice (18-20 Deg BTDC) on the top end. 

Jeffrey Atwood[HR][/HR]​Jeffrey are you using any device to control the timing??


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## PineappleMonkey (Mar 2, 2000)

*Re: (BoostedBannana)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Yup, you just keep calling me little boy and makin comments like that but guess what i'm still faster so obviously i'm doin something better then you...[HR][/HR]​


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (vento 95 GL)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Jeffrey are you using any device to control the timing?? [HR][/HR]​
Nothing, that's why I logged it. This is where the stock chip is putting me 
when running ~7psi this is around 5-6K rpm...
I have not figured out how to easily contol timing, I have a VERY good
idea i just dont know if i can make a device that is accurate enough.
If you run the stock injecors and MAF housing you will likely be running less
timing. (sorta like a built in boost retard of sorts, but too agressive)
Jeffrey Atwood


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## GrinchVR6 (May 15, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

Do you run the rising rate fpr inline to the fuel rail, or on the return line. If on the return line what do you do to the stock fpr????


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (GrinchVR6)*

Stock 3 bar regulator, no FMU (RRPR).
I am running 30# injectors. 
Make sure to read the entire post...it all in here








BTW: NEVER run and RRPR on the feed line you'll just be restricting the
flow to the engine. Run it on the RETURN line ALWAYS.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## vento 95 GL (May 25, 1999)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Jeffrey are you using any device to control the timing?? 

Nothing, that's why I logged it. This is where the stock chip is putting me 
when running ~7psi this is around 5-6K rpm...
I have not figured out how to easily contol timing, I have a VERY good
idea i just dont know if i can make a device that is accurate enough.
If you run the stock injecors and MAF housing you will likely be running less
timing. (sorta like a built in boost retard of sorts, but too agressive)
Jeffrey Atwood[HR][/HR]​cool thanks . it makes sense. this could be applied to a 2.0L too right?
what calculations did you make to know what size of Maf you need for a certain size of injectors?
thanks
Steve


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (vento 95 GL)*

simple area ratio.
Disclaimer:
this method will get you close, but fine tuning is still required.
because at short pulse widths the injectors size change is not quite
a linear relationship. i.e. changing from 20# injectors to 40# injectors
does not mean that you get double the fuel at the shorter pulse widths, but
near the topend you will get (almost) double the fuel for the same pulse width.
New Injector size / Old (stock) injectors size = 
Area of New sensor housing / Area of old (stock) sensor housing
on the stock VR6 the 'calculated size' should be 3.37" ID to change for
30# injectors, 3.5" is close enough.... Just add a little fuel pressure.
30# allow the car to run 7-8 psi and still be 'inside' the stock tables...
I will re-do my set-up for higher boost in the future, when I get bored
with 8 psi and install my 8.5:1 headgasket...
Jeffrey Atwood


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## CorradoFANATIC (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

if the name calling and pissing contests have ended here, does anyone have any new constructive info to share?


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## vw4sport (Sep 25, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (GrinchVR6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Do you run the rising rate fpr inline to the fuel rail, or on the return line. If on the return line what do you do to the stock fpr????[HR][/HR]​It sounds like you have no idea about cars.Everyone knows you run the RRFPR on the return side.If it was on the inlet you would be droping fuel pressure at boost instead of raising it..So if your RRFPR is a 1-1 and is mounted on the inlet side and it was set at 45 static and your car got 11 psi of boost it would cut the fuel to 34.Now if the RRFPR was mounted on the correct side The return line. And it was set at 45 static at 11psi of boost the fuel will be at 56........Sounds like you need to do some research my friend.Got off the PS2 and start learning about Boost...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (vw4sport)*

quote:[HR][/HR]If it was on the inlet you would be droping fuel pressure at boost instead of raising it..So if your RRFPR is a 1-1 and is mounted on the inlet side and it was set at 45 static and your car got 11 psi of boost it would cut the fuel to 34.[HR][/HR]​LOL. No need to be hostile, he was just asking a question, so obviously "everybody" doesn't know. And that is not what would happen if you mounted an FMU on the inlet line to the rail. Sounds like you need to take some of your own advice and read up on how FMUs actually work.


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## IMWALKIN (Mar 28, 2002)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

this is all very good information....thank you all for the education...all us VR6SC guys want is a proper chip....sounds like some people that know how are doing something about it!!!! the sword fighting however has got to go..... maybe because I'm Irish..










[Modified by IMWALKIN, 1:27 PM 1-29-2003]


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## vw4sport (Sep 25, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

quote:[HR][/HR]If it was on the inlet you would be droping fuel pressure at boost instead of raising it..So if your RRFPR is a 1-1 and is mounted on the inlet side and it was set at 45 static and your car got 11 psi of boost it would cut the fuel to 34.
LOL. No need to be hostile, he was just asking a question, so obviously "everybody" doesn't know. And that is not what would happen if you mounted an FMU on the inlet line to the rail. Sounds like you need to take some of your own advice and read up on how FMUs actually work.[HR][/HR]​Hes a friend of mine i was messing with him..So marty what does happen if you have a 1-1 RRFPR on the inlet side and set it at 45psi what does the fuel do when the boost kicks in.. explain please


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## vw4sport (Sep 25, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (vw4sport)*

waiting for a response from marty!!!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (vw4sport)*

Just look at how FMUs work and think about it for a second. FMUs operate using pressure differentials across diaphrams that mechanically actuate a blockage in the flow. Fuel flows in one side, where the FMU is mechanically "measuring" the fuel pressure, and flows out the other. The FMU has no idea what is happening at the exit.
Your fuel pump also knows nothing about the position of the FMU in the line. If you put the FMU on the inlet side of the rail, it would increase the fuel pressure on the inlet side of the FMU just like it would if you mounted it on the return side of the rail. So now the line from the pump to the FMU would have rising fuel pressure, with less fuel making it past the FMU and to the rail. The OEM fuel pressure regulator would then attempt to keep the fuel pressure at the appropriate value. If the FMU isn't overly restricting the flow in order to produce some incredibly high pressure (not the case with a 1:1 rate), then adequate flow will make it to the rail, and the fuel pressure at the rail will remain "stock" (i.e., 3 bar if the OEM FPR is 3 bar) at all boost levels.
Of course the pressure differential across the injectors will decrease at a 1:1 rate, as the OEM FPRs stop rising at atmospheric.


[Modified by Marty, 7:10 PM 1-29-2003]


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## collier (Aug 6, 1999)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (cabzilla)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ok mr DUM AS,
you want numbers:
how about a Honda B16A Turbo.
I built it, I tuned it.
Sure I blew it up 2 times before I got it right, but I got right ....
333 whp @ 7800 rpm 
246 ft/lbs @ 5500 rpm
on 18 psi.
Oh yeah, its passed CT emmisions running Open Loop. 
I am currently building my VR6 to make over 300 whp. I will do it and
not for your amusement. (I'm currently around 260 whp)
You try and make over 300 whp on ANYTHING, don't buy, don't rent it,
when you can make 200 whp/L on an engine I'll listen to you.
Until then leave the tech stuff to those of us DOING it , and keep your
useless comments to yourself.
Jeffrey Atwood 'equal opportunity tuner'
Somebody got told.







[HR][/HR]​Yeah, what they said................


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## vw4sport (Sep 25, 2001)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Marty)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Just look at how FMUs work and think about it for a second. FMUs operate using pressure differentials across diaphrams that mechanically actuate a blockage in the flow. Fuel flows in one side, where the FMU is mechanically "measuring" the fuel pressure, and flows out the other. The FMU has no idea what is happening at the exit.
Your fuel pump also knows nothing about the position of the FMU in the line. If you put the FMU on the inlet side of the rail, it would increase the fuel pressure on the inlet side of the FMU just like it would if you mounted it on the return side of the rail. So now the line from the pump to the FMU would have rising fuel pressure, with less fuel making it past the FMU and to the rail. The OEM fuel pressure regulator would then attempt to keep the fuel pressure at the appropriate value. If the FMU isn't overly restricting the flow in order to produce some incredibly high pressure (not the case with a 1:1 rate), then adequate flow will make it to the rail, and the fuel pressure at the rail will remain "stock" (i.e., 3 bar if the OEM FPR is 3 bar) at all boost levels.
Of course the pressure differential across the injectors will decrease at a 1:1 rate, as the OEM FPRs stop rising at atmospheric.

[Modified by Marty, 7:10 PM 1-29-2003][HR][/HR]​ I dont see it man..I had my rising rate on the inlet side and during boost it was cutting fuel off because The RRFPR was closing...If its on the return side it will build more pressure which made my fuel rise....It has to be on the return side.....


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## RobBlev1 (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: Idea: ATP larger MAF housing + EIP Turbo Chip +310s +FMU??? (Jefnes3)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Jeffrey are you using any device to control the timing?? 

Nothing, that's why I logged it. This is where the stock chip is putting me 
when running ~7psi this is around 5-6K rpm...
I have not figured out how to easily contol timing, I have a VERY good
idea i just dont know if i can make a device that is accurate enough.
If you run the stock injecors and MAF housing you will likely be running less
timing. (sorta like a built in boost retard of sorts, but too agressive)
Jeffrey Atwood[HR][/HR]​YEAH they call it an EPROM...buy a Turbo chip and your timing question is solved... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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