# Frankenturbo



## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

Anyone in here running one of these....?? 

http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/F23.html


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

Looks pretty interesting! 

I had not seen anything about an application for our car until this post. I wonder if they could post up a dyno graph or something, would definitely help their sales.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

wrparrish said:


> Looks pretty interesting!
> 
> I had not seen anything but an application for our car until this post. I wonder if they could post up a dyno graph or something, would definitely help their sales.


 
There is a post in the 1.8t forum by a guy with a 225TTQC asking about running the F23 version. Some interesting info but I am waiting for a response from the frankenturbo guy about what software would work best?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

It's not officially out yet and still in testing stage. The manifold's second prototype is actually being made right now but the turbo itself is done. 

There is no dyno yet and I'm sure Doug will post some at official release. I also will be doing some testing for FrankenTurbo and will post some real data as soon as everything is done. My guess is mid 300 WHP with the right supporting mods:thumbup:.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

will be watching this one. I like the options...does it allow retaining of the 42DD dp...wonder about software, etc. too... 

Interesting...you guys doing a test group for them? 

Joe


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> will be watching this one. I like the options...does it allow retaining of the 42DD dp...wonder about software, etc. too...
> 
> Interesting...you guys doing a test group for them?
> 
> Joe


 You will be able to retain both TIP and downpipe since the turbo is bolted at the stock location, you can even run it with a stock manifold. 

The minimal extra fuel requirements can easily be handled by a few changes with unisettings and does not really call for a completely new flash. The TT's stock pump and injectors are also more than capable of handling the load, hardware wise. 

As far as I know, the only other member involved in testing beside me is spartiati with his vw golf.


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## corradojohnt (Sep 16, 2007)

watching this thread patiently :thumbup:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> You will be able to retain both TIP and downpipe since the turbo is bolted at the stock location, you can even run it with a stock manifold.
> 
> The minimal extra fuel requirements can easily be handled by a few changes with unisettings and does not really call for a completely new flash. The TT's stock pump and injectors are also more than capable of handling the load, hardware wise.
> 
> As far as I know, the only other member involved in testing beside me is spartiati with his vw golf.


 
Slappy just posted over at the 1.8t forum that a stock/aftermarket TIP wont fit because the outlet on the franken is 54mm compared to 50mm. Thoughts? 

Max - You think that Uni stage 1 or 2 is best with the uni settings to fine tune things? Maybe just some green top injectors and a fuel pump upgrade?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

omerkm1 said:


> Slappy just posted over at the 1.8t forum that a stock/aftermarket TIP wont fit because the outlet on the franken is 54mm compared to 50mm. Thoughts?
> 
> Max - You think that Uni stage 1 or 2 is best with the uni settings to fine tune things? Maybe just some green top injectors and a fuel pump upgrade?


 An aftermarket silicone TIP probably won't stretch enough but I know you can wrestle the stock one on. 

Uni/Apr/Revo stage 1 or 2 will work and unisettings/lemmi, will provide any extra fuel requirements, no problem. 

The stock TT pump is good enough as well as the stock injectors, maybe a 3.5 or 4 bar FPR if you plan on pushing serious boost(26+) with it. However, altough it is not going to be a requirement I'd recommend the upgraded hardware for extra peace of mind. Make sure you keep an eye on injector duty cycle, AFR and timing and you should be golden.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> An aftermarket silicone TIP probably won't stretch enough but I know you can wrestle the stock one on.
> 
> Uni/Apr/Revo stage 1 or 2 will work and unisettings/lemmi, will provide any extra fuel requirements, no problem.
> 
> The stock TT pump is good enough as well as the stock injectors, maybe a 3.5 or 4 bar FPR if you plan on pushing serious boost(26+) with it. However, altough it is not going to be a requirement I'd recommend the upgraded hardware for extra peace of mind. Make sure you keep an eye on injector duty cycle, AFR and timing and you should be golden.


 
Well, now I know what to be saving for. No reason to start spending on silicon piping, I just need to get some 630's, a inline pump and a Uni BT file. Then use the uni setting to data log whats happening as the boost gets turned up? An EBC would allow me the ability to do that along with a boost gauge, AFR and exhaust gas temp gauge? Anything else you can think of that I need to add aside from a 3in TBE and front mount intercooler?


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

I think the big consideration to look out for, is whether or not the performance achieved from this setup will push you into the territory where rods become a consideration. 

Hard to say, i really look forward to the results from the test rigs.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

wrparrish said:


> I think the big consideration to look out for, is whether or not the performance achieved from this setup will push you into the territory where rods become a consideration.
> 
> Hard to say, i really look forward to the results from the test rigs.


 
I think that the f23 is only rated to flow enough for about 300whp, so that should mean your stock rods are ok?


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

The number you will be concerned with is both peak torque, and its general onset and rise. Thats what breaks thing for the most part.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

wrparrish said:


> The number you will be concerned with is both peak torque, and its general onset and rise. Thats what breaks thing for the most part.


 
You are correct, I totally spaced out that torque kills rods and clutches, not WHP. Thanks


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## M-Power M3 (Oct 15, 2007)

omerkm1 said:


> Slappy just posted over at the 1.8t forum that a stock/aftermarket TIP wont fit because the outlet on the franken is 54mm compared to 50mm. Thoughts?
> 
> Max - You think that Uni stage 1 or 2 is best with the uni settings to fine tune things? Maybe just some green top injectors and a fuel pump upgrade?


 It looks like they have their own TIP? Or thats what the pic looks like. Can't wait to see where this goes. It would be nice to have a bolt on upgrade for a little extra power instead of doing a whole overhaul. :beer:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

M-Power M3 said:


> It looks like they have their own TIP? Or thats what the pic looks like. Can't wait to see where this goes. It would be nice to have a bolt on upgrade for a little extra power instead of doing a whole overhaul. :beer:


 
Yeah, I dont think that I can justify a full on BT build but a better turbo in the stock set up makes sense to me. There is another thread in the 1.8t forum where we are talking with the frankenturbo creator about fueling/tuning/software specifically for the setup instead of a basic tune and then using uni settings or maestro to fine tune everything. I just dont have access to a 4wd dyno or anyone with VAG tuning knowledge.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

wrparrish said:


> I think the big consideration to look out for, is whether or not the performance achieved from this setup will push you into the territory where rods become a consideration.
> 
> Hard to say, i really look forward to the results from the test rigs.


 I would recommend upgrading the rods. 
I bent 2 rods with the stock turbo and E85(360TQ at 3300rpm) so get the safety cushion if you plan on pushing some boost with the turbo.


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

omerkm1 said:


> You are correct


 Broken watch twice a day thing, ive got one more in me before its all over!


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> I would recommend upgrading the rods.
> I bent 2 rods with the stock turbo and E85(360TQ at 3300rpm) so get the safety cushion if you plan on pushing some boost with the turbo.


 
Yes Sir, 

Ill go this frankenturbo route unless the results are just outright dissappointing. 
I am at 105,xxx miles right now, so at that stage of the game i'd be taking the head off for a reconditioning, and that in and of itself is a bit of a waste if your not addressing the wear on the rings. So the head will come off to make the install easier for the turbo, and at that point, the rods and cylinder hone would be no issue.


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

I'm subscribed. I would love to know what this turbo is willing to make :thumbup:


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

was still thinking about this with a properly built motor on my part as well (trying to located extra 1.8longblock now, etc) and would do rods, etc. etc. to pull the most out of it. I like the idea of being able to use some of the hardware I already have...like the 42DD dp, etc. 

Joe


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> was still thinking about this with a properly built motor on my part as well (trying to located extra 1.8longblock now, etc) and would do rods, etc. etc. to pull the most out of it. I like the idea of being able to use some of the hardware I already have...like the 42DD dp, etc.
> 
> Joe


 
I'm dumb and want it to be easy to put together. Someone just put a package deal together, I will send a check or even better cash.....


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## steve05ram360 (Aug 14, 2006)

I have one of these on my 180TTQ... I like it however I've had boost leaks that I am resolving as time is permitting... just picked up the last of the good clamps for the lower IC hose off the charge pipe. that plus the DV is leaking and needs a rebuild (not the one from the FT kit...) 

I am running Uni stage 1 s/w with a couple of tweeks with uni-settings... (bumped up the fueling some) Feels strong and should have come from the factory like this. 

IF you go with uni s/w and are after the stage 2+, you need to have a wideband o2 setup to use the s/w. I dont and am limited to the uni-stage 2 s/w unless I do the wideband conversion.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

I am looking forward to the F23 hopefully for longitudinal application... 
Alas I digress. Back on point: 

Dyno Graph: 


















Dyno Run in B6 1.8T Quattro 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy_XJqkQqIY 

....Now about that F23:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Beats a disco? Wow :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Beats a disco? Wow :thumbup:


 It has to spin faster but yeah its compressor map is really comparable to the Disco Potato's. To address the question of rods, forum sponsor Malone Tuning is going to develop a file that modulates the low end boost and slowly ramps pressure up as volumetric efficiency drops with engine speed. 

Would the stock fuel pump be adequate for a 440cc injectors and 4bar fuel rail pressure? The stockers can push almost the same amount if run at 5bar, but that definitely necessitates a supplemental pump.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

How about 550cc at 3bar?


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> It has to spin faster but yeah its compressor map is really comparable to the Disco Potato's. To address the question of rods, forum sponsor Malone Tuning is going to develop a file that modulates the low end boost and slowly ramps pressure up as volumetric efficiency drops with engine speed.
> 
> Would the stock fuel pump be adequate for a 440cc injectors and 4bar fuel rail pressure? The stockers can push almost the same amount if run at 5bar, but that definitely necessitates a supplemental pump.


 
Would Malone be able to sell that tune as a package with your turbo?


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

l88m22vette said:


> How about 550cc at 3bar?


 Fuel volume requirement is a function of fuel pressure, injector and duty cycle. 

I have been studying the Unitronic 630cc file, and at 3 bar and it will require either an inline/in-tank pum upgrade with something like a Bosch 044 @ 22psi on a GT2871R 

Apr stage 3+ using the GT28RS includes a the Bosch 044 as part of the kit at 4 bar. 
(At 25PSI tweaking with Uni-settings, FMIC, SEM intake and 80mm TB, this setup fuels with no problem.)


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> ...To address the question of rods, forum sponsor Malone Tuning is going to develop a file that modulates the low end boost and slowly ramps pressure up as volumetric efficiency drops with engine speed.


 I may be missing the point but the reason I have been planning a GT2871R and am now considering a F23 (If a kit becomes available for the A4) is that I want it to spool fast and "instant on". For what a set of IE rods cost and the chance to do a small refresh for a tired engine, I would just use Unitronic. 



slappy_dunbar said:


> Would the stock fuel pump be adequate for a 440cc injectors and 4bar fuel rail pressure? The stockers can push almost the same amount if run at 5bar, but that definitely necessitates a supplemental pump.


 If you are going to run 22-23 PSI use the Unitronic 630CC file with the Siemens DEKA High Z injectors and a Bosh 044 intank. Its thier most tested file and has more than enough fueling. (Using the aeromotive intank sounds like a jet priming.)


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

So whats gonna spool faster the f23 or a 28rs


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Depends on the setup, but a "bolt-on" smallport F23 would almost definitely beat the 2860 - that said, the exhaust housing on the k04 is still ultimately flow limited as compared to the RS (especially the rarer T3 versions), and the spool of the F23 would prevent its use on a more built engine. I'm not knocking the F in any way, the whole point is that you _don't_ have to do a ton of stuff :thumbup:


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

abacorrado said:


> So whats gonna spool faster the f23 or a 28rs


 F23.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> F23.


 
so F23 with the uni BT file, 630 injectors and the bosch pump would be a fine set up? using uni settings would allow for fine tuning on the dyno? what about using the inline pump that can be bought with the f23 and some 630 injectors?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> How about 550cc at 3bar?





omerkm1 said:


> Would Malone be able to sell that tune as a package with your turbo?


 
I think 550cc fueling such as Delphis is a solid approach. The injectors are inexpensive and you can run them at 3bar, most likely eliminating the hassle of modifying your fuel pump. As for Malone, right now they're just standing by for me to deliver them a good candidate or candidates to tune. But I don't know about "packaging" something. Not sure if they're set up that way.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I think 550cc fueling such as Delphis is a solid approach. The injectors are inexpensive and you can run them at 3bar, most likely eliminating the hassle of modifying your fuel pump. As for Malone, right now they're just standing by for me to deliver them a good candidate or candidates to tune. But I don't know about "packaging" something. Not sure if they're set up that way.


 
PM Sent


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I think 550cc fueling such as Delphis is a solid approach. The injectors are inexpensive and you can run them at 3bar, most likely eliminating the hassle of modifying your fuel pump. As for Malone, right now they're just standing by for me to deliver them a good candidate or candidates to tune. But I don't know about "packaging" something. Not sure if they're set up that way.


 
if that set up would work, it would go along with the idea that this is a true plug and play set up. bolt on the turbo, put in the injectors and send your ecu somewhere to get tuned. of course the options of inline pump and manifold are there, but for those of us looking for something as stock as possible but able to push 300whp, this is pretty exciting.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The Delphis at ECS seem like a good value and well-suited to the TT225: 

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-TT_MKI-Quattro-225HP/Engine/Fuel/ES9863/


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

:thumbup:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> The Delphis at ECS seem like a good value and well-suited to the TT225:
> 
> http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-TT_MKI-Quattro-225HP/Engine/Fuel/ES9863/


 
would a N75 race valve be a good addition as well?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Try that after getting everything else sorted, no reason to throw in more variables before your setup is running


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## M-Power M3 (Oct 15, 2007)

omerkm1 said:


> would a N75 race valve be a good addition as well?


 http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/FrankenTurboFAQ.html


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

M-Power M3 said:


> http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/FrankenTurboFAQ.html


 :beer:


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

My inner child dies a little on the inside, everytime i have to give ECS money.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

M-Power M3 said:


> http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/FrankenTurboFAQ.html


 You guys ROCK! You read the fine print! 

Yes! The "race" valve suuuuuuuucks!


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

slappy I really want this setup, but I want to keep unitronic software. Has anyone contacted unitronic about what software would be best for this setup?


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I think 550cc fueling such as Delphis is a solid approach. The injectors are inexpensive and you can run them at 3bar, most likely eliminating the hassle of modifying your fuel pump. As for Malone, right now they're just standing by for me to deliver them a good candidate or candidates to tune. But I don't know about "packaging" something. Not sure if they're set up that way.


 Match the injectors to software. For those looking to run Unitronicsoftware, they suggest the 630cc DEKA "High Z" to their software and is the best burn with their setup as it is the most similar to the factory spray pattern. 

Sorry I am not familiar with other manufacturers.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> slappy I really want this setup, but I want to keep unitronic software. Has anyone contacted unitronic about what software would be best for this setup?


 I have done the research for a GT2560 and GT2871R. 630cc file is the most consistent and recommended file for this setup. (It uses a 3bar FPR so you'll need a standard 1.8T one.) 
It will cover fueling into very high boost with any 28 series turbo.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

G-radoT said:


> I have done the research for a GT2560 and GT2871R. 630cc file is the most consistent and recommended file for this setup. (It uses a 3bar FPR so you'll need a standard 1.8T one.)
> It will cover fueling into very high boost with any 28 series turbo.


 
Would the Unitronic file be designed for a built motor? I worry that the boost requests might be really high down low. On a Garrett that might not be too important. But on a hybrid capable of 25+psi before 3000rpm I'd be hesitant to do that on stock rods.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Would the Unitronic file be designed for a built motor? I worry that the boost requests might be really high down low. On a Garrett that might not be too important. But on a hybrid capable of 25+psi before 3000rpm I'd be hesitant to do that on stock rods.


 
with Uni software, my thought is that you would use the stage 2 software along with an EBC and AFR gauge when using the F23. Then run the recommended 440 or 530 injectors and inline pump. Basically treat everything as a stock turbo set up but monitor levels with the AFR gauge.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Would the Unitronic file be designed for a built motor? I worry that the boost requests might be really high down low. On a Garrett that might not be too important. But on a hybrid capable of 25+psi before 3000rpm I'd be hesitant to do that on stock rods.


 GT28RS/F23/GT2871R if you are going to be heading towards a boost setup that will get you into the 400 crank Torque level I would be scared to run stock rods TT and/or 1.8T. (I am running IE rods so this will not be an issue.) 



omerkm1 said:


> with Uni software, my thought is that you would use the stage 2 software along with an EBC and AFR gauge when using the F23. Then run the recommended 440 or 530 injectors and inline pump. Basically treat everything as a stock turbo set up but monitor levels with the AFR gauge.


 Yeah that is one way to do it but it introduces the human element to keep things at 100% performance/tune. 
-Either way you will need a pump inline or in-tank is unimportant. I will be using the Bosch 044 in-tank as it is OEM quiet and invisible. (Not a fan of the space shuttle priming of some other brands.) 
-Injectors are the same price either way. 
-3 Bar FPR you will be able to trade, get used, buy new for almost nothing. 
-Unitronic Software is all about the same price. 
-Use a boost controller of your choice like a Turbosmart Gated 2 Stage boost controller and away you go. No electronics or finicky stuff. 

I always lean towards the 630cc file as it is the file that Mike Z (Unitronic Software tuner) used in his own daily driver for many years. As such it has the most seat time as well as custom setups and variations. 12 months a year in all conditions -35 degrees celcius to plus 35 degrees c. Best part throttle, idle and WOT of them all. 

100% reliability, no tweaking straight out of the box... but you'll need rods at 20+ psi. lower boost on a F23 like 12psi will still flow more than a stock K04 at 12PSI.


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

The reason I liked this turbo setup was because you could run it without having to dig into the engine and start replacing rods and stuff! If thats the case I can promise you im not going to do a litte F23, I will be doing a GT 30 or 35 of some sort. This is pretty much going to be just as expensive as a turbo setup from the many dealers out there!


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> GT28RS/F23/GT2871R if you are going to be heading towards a boost setup that will get you into the 400 crank Torque level I would be scared to run stock rods TT and/or 1.8T. (I am running IE rods so this will not be an issue.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
so f23, uni BT 630 file, 630 injectors, bosch 044, 3bar FPR and a EBC will make it work up to 20psi? Interesting.....


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> The reason I liked this turbo setup was because you could run it without having to dig into the engine and start replacing rods and stuff! If thats the case I can promise you im not going to do a litte F23, I will be doing a GT 30 or 35 of some sort. This is pretty much going to be just as expensive as a turbo setup from the many dealers out there!


 There needs to be a tuning solution that allows people to run their stock motors. This means careful modulation of the boost onset, preventing the turbo from pumping too much air into the cylinders when they're spinning slowly. First off, I am still really liking the sound of 550cc fueling. Here is another option, this one from one of CTS/Kinetic's dealers: 

http://cbtuning.net/store/products.php?129&cPath=78&sid=74beqkcseckogo0e7pb6sn4ff7 

$200 for fueling. Freaking great deal. Next comes the software. My guidelines would be this: 

18psi boost spike (3000rpm) 
24psi boost peak (5000rpm) 
22psi boost at rev limit (7000rpm) 

Basically you're looking at a "big turbo" boost profile but with much livelier down low boost response. This would be the task I'd give to Malone.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> There needs to be a tuning solution that allows people to run their stock motors. This means careful modulation of the boost onset, preventing the turbo from pumping too much air into the cylinders when they're spinning slowly. First off, I am still really liking the sound of 550cc fueling. Here is another option, this one from one of CTS/Kinetic's dealers:
> 
> http://cbtuning.net/store/products.php?129&cPath=78&sid=74beqkcseckogo0e7pb6sn4ff7
> 
> ...


 
so those injectors and your kit along with Malone software would be the combo. now I just need to assemble all the parts and drive up to BC.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

omerkm1 said:


> ... of course the options of inline pump and manifold are there...


If you have a 225TT, dont waste your money on a shiny new manifold, unless you like the way it looks. Many of the manifolds will not show large enough gains with an F23 or even show a decrease in power and increase in lag. The SEM is a 2 Litre internal volume and thus is too large for anything smaller than a GT3076. Many of the other options show modest gains with such a relatively small turbo and will require airflow volume to retain boost. 
If you have $600 to blow the better return on investment is a snow performance water meth kit. It will allow you to run more timing and cooler inlet temps on the same pump gas. Some run 100 octane race fuel using this setup without timing being pulled.


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

What about the AGU manifold. Or would that manifold even work on our setup, if we changed the charge piping


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

abacorrado said:


> What about the AGU manifold. Or would that manifold even work on our setup, if we changed the charge piping


What do you figure the return is going to be? Not sure that this is going to change your results as this setup is relying on boost pressure to make power rather than by moving a ton of air volume. 1.8T forum has an intake manifold bench test guide. Be warned that bench tests on flow without a bottom end an firing sequence etc to effect pulses can only be used as an indicator of flow.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

G-radoT said:


> If you have a 225TT, dont waste your money on a shiny new manifold, unless you like the way it looks. Many of the manifolds will not show large enough gains with an F23 or even show a decrease in power and increase in lag. The SEM is a 2 Litre internal volume and thus is too large for anything smaller than a GT3076. Many of the other options show modest gains with such a relatively small turbo and will require airflow volume to retain boost.
> If you have $600 to blow the better return on investment is a snow performance water meth kit. It will allow you to run more timing and cooler inlet temps on the same pump gas. Some run 100 octane race fuel using this setup without timing being pulled.


I believe he was talking about the *exhaust manifold *and that anemic thing is a major source of restriction.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> There needs to be a tuning solution that allows people to run their stock motors. This means careful modulation of the boost onset, preventing the turbo from pumping too much air into the cylinders when they're spinning slowly. First off, I am still really liking the sound of 550cc fueling.... Basically you're looking at a "big turbo" boost profile but with much livelier down low boost response. This would be the task I'd give to Malone.


I do not disagree. This are all great points. 

One must keep in mind also the production costs for tuned and tested software for all national markets. I would say that for an F23 specific program at this point is a risk is no sales data to back the investment of tuning and programming time. It would seem to me to be a risk that only a smaller tuner will take and/or unless there was a partnership between the hardware and software company. As a customer who drives 30K miles per year out of the box proven hard and software that has a track record and it proven is my first choice as this is not a race test bed for me. I prefer an off the shelf tune with years and hundreds if not thousands of cars running it.

Why not just run the turbo at 18PSI then and use an off the shelf tune? Many of the vehicles are likely 80K Miles and higher at which point throwing in a set of rods when the refresh is being done is a good idea. Not sure that a custom tune is going to replace doing a set of rods. (my $0.02)


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

madmax199 said:


> I believe he was talking about the *exhaust manifold *and that anemic thing is a major source of restriction.


My bad... eace:

Eurojet showed one then never out it into production. What is actually avaialble?


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> The reason I liked this turbo setup was because you could run it without having to dig into the engine and start replacing rods and stuff! If thats the case I can promise you im not going to do a litte F23, I will be doing a GT 30 or 35 of some sort. This is pretty much going to be just as expensive as a turbo setup from the many dealers out there!


Rods are only required if your power requirements are high. Keep in mind 225TT rods are stronger than reg. 1.8T so unless you want crazy boost down low and/or are launcing it hard I am not sure you REQUIRE a rod upgrade. If using a high mileage motor and or are doing service this a a great time to do rods as added precaution. Keep in mind this kit eliminates all the fab work and addiitonal piping required to do a Garrett or otehr Kit. The APR kit replaces half the the engine bay and costs big $$$ and still strongly suggest doing rods.

This will be no where near the cost in my math to do a Garrett.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

G-radoT said:


> Rods are only required if your power requirements are high. Keep in mind 225TT rods are stronger than reg. 1.8T so unless you want crazy boost down low and/or are launcing it hard I am not sure you REQUIRE a rod upgrade. If using a high mileage motor and or are doing service this a a great time to do rods as added precaution. Keep in mind this kit eliminates all the fab work and addiitonal piping required to do a Garrett or otehr Kit. The APR kit replaces half the the engine bay and costs big $$$ and still strongly suggest doing rods.
> 
> This will be no where near the cost in my math to do a Garrett.


I would advise anyone to get the rods done, the whole point of getting the turbo is to make more power. I have bent rods with the stock turbo and E85, so the extra flow/power of the turbo could put the engine in that rod bearing territory. Be safe and do it right:thumbup:.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

madmax199 said:


> I would advise anyone to get the rods done, the whole point of getting the turbo is to make more power. I have bent rods with the stock turbo and E85, so the extra flow/power of the turbo could put the engine in that rod bearing territory. Be safe and do it right:thumbup:.


 AMEN to that. 
I think the same way and did: rods, OEM pistons, AEB head, decked, 1st over and tanked. Whats a few hundred extra to do it right? I'm not much of a gambler. I have a GT2871R ready to go in but the F23 interests me if it is ever available in a longitudinal setup as I will not have to change a bunch of piping etc... Injectors, software, pump, TT MAF housing all stay the same.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> AMEN to that.
> I think the same way and did: rods, OEM pistons, AEB head, decked, 1st over and tanked. Whats a few hundred extra to do it right? I'm not much of a gambler. I have a GT2871R ready to go in but the F23 interests me if it is ever available in a longitudinal setup as I will not have to change a bunch of piping etc... Injectors, software, pump, TT MAF housing all stay the same.



this

I want to go faster but dont really want to rip the car apart for a true BT set up. Plus, for autox and DD, the quicker spooling turbo along with pretty good flow makes this almost the best of both worlds.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

omerkm1 said:


> this
> 
> I want to go faster but dont really want to rip the car apart for a true BT set up. Plus, for autox and DD, the quicker spooling turbo along with pretty good flow makes this almost the best of both worlds.


 The isssue regarding rods is determined by how much torque you will be straining them with when launching/standing on the throttle. The turbo spool size is less relevant as a slow spooling big turbo at 10psi at high rpm may be the same as a F23 at 30psi for example.
Torque is torque. 
If she's spoolin fast and the torque is hittng hard and that is how you drive thenrods should be a consideration. This setuo is still thousands less in hard parts costs, custom fabrication and install labor than a garett package.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> The isssue regarding rods is determined by how much torque you will be straining them with when launching/standing on the throttle. The turbo spool size is less relevant as a slow spooling big turbo at 10psi at high rpm may be the same as a F23 at 30psi for example.
> Torque is torque.
> If she's spoolin fast and the torque is hittng hard and that is how you drive thenrods should be a consideration. This setuo is still thousands less in hard parts costs, custom fabrication and install labor than a garett package.




I know that the goal of Mr. Frankenturbo is to get Malone Tuning to design something that incorporates gear/speed specific boosting. The f23 hits boost so quick that like you are saying, hard launching will destroy the stock rods. But by limiting boost in 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc, based on rpm, you can control that. Rods will probably still be necessary, but a tune that helps deal with hitting 25psi at 2800rpm will also be necessary I think.


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

"25 psi at 2800 rpm" is that some random figure or will the f23 spool that quick?


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

abacorrado said:


> "25 psi at 2800 rpm" is that some random figure or will the f23 spool that quick?



I didnt make it up, something like that was posted earlier in this thread or in the 1.8t forum thread by the owner of Frankenturbo. His screen name is Slappy Dunbar.


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)

omerkm1 said:


> I didnt make it up, something like that was posted earlier in this thread or in the 1.8t forum thread by the owner of Frankenturbo. His screen name is Slappy Dunbar.


Um, that's the maker of the FT.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

darrenbyrnes said:


> Um, that's the maker of the FT.


yeah, so we can all take it with a grain of salt. I was just trying to comment on the post about quick spooling turbos, boost and rods. sorry if it was confusing.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

omerkm1 said:


> I didnt make it up, something like that was posted earlier in this thread or in the 1.8t forum thread by the owner of Frankenturbo. His screen name is Slappy Dunbar.


He'd know, he's they guy who is making them!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, I was actually indicating a fear that they'd spool so quick that they'd over-run the software's ability to modulate them. My expectation, though, is full boost before 3000rpm. If the software isn't on top of it (and also NOOOOO "race valves") the engine will be over-stressed.

Unfortunately, since the majority of TT225 cars are narrow-band, being careful with the software maps is especially critical.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

omerkm1 said:


> I know that the goal of Mr. Frankenturbo is to get Malone Tuning to design something that incorporates gear/speed specific boosting. The f23 hits boost so quick that like you are saying, hard launching will destroy the stock rods. But by limiting boost in 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc, based on rpm, you can control that. Rods will probably still be necessary, but a tune that helps deal with hitting 25psi at 2800rpm will also be necessary I think.


Unitronic Stage II for 225hp TT

Unitronic 630CC File for 225HP TT

If you are going to make more power than an a Disco Potato and want to crank the boost then go with the Big Boy file. If you want to run 22psi etc, then the stage 2 file will run for you. Contact Lavi at Unitronic for more info.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Well, I was actually indicating a fear that they'd spool so quick that they'd over-run the software's ability to modulate them. My expectation, though, is full boost before 3000rpm. If the software isn't on top of it (and also NOOOOO "race valves") the engine will be over-stressed.
> 
> Unfortunately, since the majority of TT225 cars are narrow-band, being careful with the software maps is especially critical.


Hence Unitronic indicates that rods are recommended for 300+tq and a Wide Band ECU upgrade is suggested over 400hp in the 2002 section. 

We are debating semantics. Either way you go its gonna be a fun ride!


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> Unitronic Stage II for 225hp TT
> 
> Unitronic 630CC File for 225HP TT
> 
> If you are going to make more power than an a Disco Potato and want to crank the boost then go with the Big Boy file. If you want to run 22psi etc, then the stage 2 file will run for you. Contact Lavi at Unitronic for more info.



It would be pretty amazing to run a stock Uni file with a f23 set up. My guess is that you would also need the uni settings adjustments to really fine tune things.


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

ok so who is gonna bite the bullet and try this madness :laugh:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> ok so who is gonna bite the bullet and try this madness :laugh:



I am trying to work out how to get my car up to Malone for tuning, so I might be the first. Will keep the forum updated.


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

omerkm1 said:


> I am trying to work out how to get my car up to Malone for tuning, so I might be the first. Will keep the forum updated.


I was thinking about just running a uni 630 file and see what happens :laugh: just use unisettings and see what I can do with it!


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> I was thinking about just running a uni 630 file and see what happens :laugh: just use unisettings and see what I can do with it!



I like that plan too. At least I would have no one to blame but myself when i throw a rod!!


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> I was thinking about just running a uni 630 file and see what happens :laugh: just use unisettings and see what I can do with it!


:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> I was thinking about just running a uni 630 file and see what happens :laugh: just use unisettings and see what I can do with it!


Retail on that 630 file is 890usd. Is there a price break for existing customers? If so, what is the actual cost to have a dealer re-flash to this?


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Retail on that 630 file is 890usd. Is there a price break for existing customers? If so, what is the actual cost to have a dealer re-flash to this?


You only pay the difference.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

G-radoT said:


> You only pay the difference.


So less than 400usd for existing customers? Unitronic has been really good for the F4 series. I'd imagine the Stage 3 is every bit as good. But I'm interested in moving beyond speculation.

Well, I need to be cautious here with what I say I'd do in a scenario that involves a non-advertiser such as Unitronic. That wouldn't be fair to Malone Tuning et al. But that upgrade pricing certainly opens some doors...


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## wrparrish (Nov 13, 2008)

It does open doors yes, but it also creates leverage for you as the developer.

Unitronic is a big name in the software game, and will be regardless of whether guys running the franken line use them or not. 

The game changing opportunity exists for the smaller software company, or the larger company that isnt quite controlling the market like it used to. 

You can pitch your setup to Malone or even someone like Revo, and show the interest youve seen, and the hard data you have from F4 sales. Your product provides an opportunity for a company without a niche in the software game to get one. And the beauty of it, is that its not a ground up kind of software build, Revo already has a stg3 file they could play with.


I had never heard of malone tuning before reading into frankenturbo... Not once. That i know have gone to their site, and read about them, is hard proof of what you can offer to these companies with your product.

:beer:


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> So less than 400usd for existing customers? Unitronic has been really good for the F4 series. I'd imagine the Stage 3 is every bit as good. But I'm interested in moving beyond speculation.
> 
> Well, I need to be cautious here with what I say I'd do in a scenario that involves a non-advertiser such as Unitronic. That wouldn't be fair to Malone Tuning et al. But that upgrade pricing certainly opens some doors...


Unitronic was a the long time banner sponsor for the 1.8T forum. While I do understand your point regarding supporting the VAG community, I do not believe there is any doubt in anyone's mind that Unitronic is huge VAG supporter. Having said that, these guys have the proven product to run the cars we are driving. While I cant speak for others, I am not into a lot of "research" into solving a problem that has already been solved 5 years ago. The software works when used as prescribed. I am not a gambler and not willing to bet my motor on a custom tune. My experience has always been that these "custom tunes" require a lot of tweaking a la race car. If I was going to have to log and tune often, I would have gone 034 standalone and C4 coilpacks with a GT3071R. 

The point of this kit is to give performance and daily driven stability and for that I lean towards proven track record.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

REVO is in the midst of a legal battle with APR...
FTR: Witness Statement


Stick with a proven product till there is a proven improved alternative. One dyno sheet does not a full software tune make.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, Revo's staff are cordial and willing to take the time to discuss this product but they will not go beyond that. They will not be dedicating any resources to a legacy product like the 1.8T. And they also expressed reservations about use of their Stage 3 file on any narrow-band TT225. So that pretty much sidelines them.

From what I gather, Unitronic's 630 file is excellent. But they, too, will be unlikely to explore a modified version of it for the F23 or any other hybrid K04. There just isn't enough of a market. That doesn't eliminate them, though. Their Stage 2+ flash, originally developed for the K04-20 on the MkIV, works ideally for our F4 hybrid. So it stands to reason that their existing Stage 3 might be a good fit. The only way to find out, though, is to try. And rather than entice Unitronic into sponsoring a test, I'll just sort out the financials on my end.


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

So Slappy, you gonna make the F23 available to the rest of the 1.8T market or only the 225TT's?
The market in A4's for instance interest me and others.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

we have an up-pipe adapter prototype to fit MkIVs which will be getting tested late this week. But the longitudinal cars would require a custom-fabricated manifold as well as a downpipe adapter. I looked into the expense for this and determined it wouldn't be doable. The door's not completely closed but it's pretty unlikely.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

So Would i be able to run my APR software? sorry, if it was already discussed..


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> You only pay the difference.




So you could try the F23 and the Uni stage 2 file and then go with the 630 BT file when the time was right for rods?


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

omerkm1 said:


> So you could try the F23 and the Uni stage 2 file and then go with the 630 BT file when the time was right for rods?


*STAGE 2*
*STOCK POWER*: 225HP / 207LB-TQ
*UNITRONIC STAGE 2 *: 285HP / 290LB-TQ
*DESCRIPTION*: Performance software specially engineered to run at 22psi of boost using a upgraded exhaust system.
*GAS TYPE*: Optimized for 93 Octane / 98 Ron gas

*REQUIRED HARDWARE:*


Turbo Back Exhaust System
Cold Air Intake / Short Ram

*RECOMMENDED HARDWARE*:


Upgraded (DV) Diverter Valve
Upgraded Intercooler


Unitronic Stage 2 225TT

*STAGE 3 BT 630CC*

*STOCK POWER*: 225HP / 207LB-TQ
*UNITRONIC BT 630CC*: UP TO 500HP
*DESCRIPTION*: Big Turbo Software Precisely Engineered to Run 20psi of Boost on a Stock Engine. (For over 300WTQ you need upgraded rods).
*GAS TYPE OPTION*S: 91 Octane - 93 Octane

*REQUIRED HARDWARE*:


Siemens 630cc Injectors
OBD2 VR6 or TT225 Maf Housing (Keep Stock Sensor)
3 Bar FPR
Upgraded Exhaust System
Upgraded Intercooler
Cold Air Intake / Short Ram

*RECOMMENDED HARDWARE:*


Upgraded Fuel Pump (For over 300HP)
Upgraded (DV) Diverter Valve
Upgraded Rods (For over 300WTQ)


Unitronic Stage 3 630cc 225TT

Either way you'll need rods if you are going to run a F23 at full boost and launching from a standstill. This is not an issue in my case but may be for many of you.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

G-radoT said:


> *STAGE 2*
> *STOCK POWER*: 225HP / 207LB-TQ
> *UNITRONIC STAGE 2 *: 285HP / 290LB-TQ
> *DESCRIPTION*: Performance software specially engineered to run at 22psi of boost using a upgraded exhaust system.
> ...



Thanks for posting that. Has anyone had any experience with GIAC's BT files? Here is a link showing a file for a gt2871R with 580 and also a file for gt2871r/gt30 with 680's and rods. I was thinking that the smaller injector file with the boost control would be an option with the f23?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

G-radoT said:


> *STAGE 3 BT 630CC*
> 
> *STOCK POWER*: 225HP / 207LB-TQ
> *UNITRONIC BT 630CC*: UP TO 500HP
> *DESCRIPTION*: Big Turbo Software Precisely_* Engineered to Run 20psi of Boost on a Stock Engine*_. (For over 300WTQ you need upgraded rods).


How interesting that they specify this file as meant for a stock engine. We've been running slightly over 300wtq with the F4 on stock AWP motors. I should think the same power level is acceptable on the TT225 internals.


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

slappy_dunbar said:


> How interesting that they specify this file as meant for a stock engine. We've been running slightly over 300wtq with the F4 on stock AWP motors. I should think the same power level is acceptable on the TT225 internals.


They say that to cover their a$$.. My buddy use to own a 225 and he ran gt3076R at around 26 PSI on a stock AMU 1.8T and never had an issue for over a year, then he sold it. The 225 has all forged internals thats why im just thinking about giving it a whirl! My BT jetta was around 340tq and ran it as my daily for about 2 years and never had a hicup.. That was an AWD 1.8T and the model year was a 2000. I guess my question is, has anyone actually thrown stock rods on 225 1.8T? I would love to know what setup they are running! I think 1.8T owners have just heard so much crap about rods they just natrually assume they need them. Random boost spikes are wjat kill rods :thumbup:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> They say that to cover their a$$.. My buddy use to own a 225 and he ran gt3076R at around 26 PSI on a stock AMU 1.8T and never had an issue for over a year, then he sold it. The 225 has all forged internals thats why im just thinking about giving it a whirl! My BT jetta was around 340tq and ran it as my daily for about 2 years and never had a hicup.. That was an AWD 1.8T and the model year was a 2000. I guess my question is, has anyone actually thrown stock rods on 225 1.8T? I would love to know what setup they are running! I think 1.8T owners have just heard so much crap about rods they just natrually assume they need them. Random boost spikes are wjat kill rods :thumbup:



and really hard awd launches I would think are rod killers. something has to give in those situations. in a fwd, unless you have a lsd, only one wheel is trying to go. in an awd its more like 2.5-3 wheels trying to go. something is going to break with a 4000rpm launch. 

you are probably correct about it being tough to find someone who has actually eaten their rods.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

How many of you following this thread are converted to wideband?


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

i have an 04 tt 225 (bea) so mine is wideband... i have been keeping a close eye on this thread though, i have been looking for a bolt-on (bigger) turbo for some time now...


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## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

20psi now said:


> i have an 04 tt 225 (bea) so mine is wideband... i have been keeping a close eye on this thread though, i have been looking for a bolt-on (bigger) turbo for some time now...


Slap on the turbo, pump, injectors, 3bar FPR and send out your ECU to be flashed with the 630cc file. Easy on the boost depending on the turbo size till you get rods done. 
et voila. :thumbup:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Guys: DO RODS FIRST. Normal 022/023 k04s have broken rods, and this turbo outflows a disco (a genuine 300whp turbo) with possibly better spool; if anything do rods first and get them broken in before throwing go-fast parts at the engine. Stop trying to half-ass power, its just going to cost more in the end...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

20psi now said:


> i have an 04 tt 225 (bea) so mine is wideband... i have been keeping a close eye on this thread though, i have been looking for a bolt-on (bigger) turbo for some time now...





l88m22vette said:


> Guys: DO RODS FIRST. Normal 022/023 k04s have broken rods,


Well, the BEA does have uprated 20mm wrist pin rods. And Uni specifies their 630cc file for stock motors. _Wideband_ stock motors. I think individuals' driving habits are also a factor. If you drive like you're trying to break something, you probably will.


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

slappy_dunbar said:


> How many of you following this thread are converted to wideband?


Me, I have a 2001 AMU that I converted over to wideband :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I got this from Mark at Malone Tuning:


_Bosch EV14 550ccs with stock FPR is better than 440cc + 4bar FPR. I will limit power to 320HP for stock engine/rods.

I will ask my local dealer (JS Performance) if they can do the parts installation. It's the same dealer that installed a turbo kit in a 2001 VW 90HP 1.9L TDI and we dynoed 262whp (295bhp) with it several years ago. I want to start tuning the TT by Feb. 26th so it will need to be here before that for parts installation._


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

l88m22vette said:


> Guys: DO RODS FIRST. Normal 022/023 k04s have broken rods, and this turbo outflows a disco (a genuine 300whp turbo) with possibly better spool; if anything do rods first and get them broken in before throwing go-fast parts at the engine. Stop trying to half-ass power, its just going to cost more in the end...


I wanna see somone that has bent or thrown rods in a 225! So far this is all speculation because of weaker built 1.8Ts :sly:


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I got this from Mark at Malone Tuning:
> 
> 
> _Bosch EV14 550ccs with stock FPR is better than 440cc + 4bar FPR. I will limit power to 320HP for stock engine/rods.
> ...


The HP numbers arent what needs to be restricted, its the instant torque spikes :thumbup:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> I wanna see somone that has bent or thrown rods in a 225! So far this is all speculation because of weaker built 1.8Ts :sly:


I bent two rods on *stock turbo,downpipe and manifolds* running E85(AFR was good, IAT and EGT were low and there was no knock). Altough it is not typical, it is possible ... 360 awtq did it on the stock hardware.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> How many of you following this thread are converted to wideband?




I am a 2001 225TTQC still running narrowband.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

314whp/338ft-lbs on a mk5 with a k04 swap: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71860









TFSI with its stock k03 variant: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-rods-Wiseco-pistons...&p=65276203&viewfull=1

Smaller turbos break stock engines, even though we have 19mm/20mm sintered rods, they simply are not as good as forged IEs or Brutes or whatever. You have to remove the head to deal with the turbo stuff anyway, at that point rods should be a single day's work as long as you have all the supplies. Even though the engines mentioned are the newer 2.0s they still matter, and are the results I could find. The reason you always hear "do rods" is because you _should_, sayings got started for a reason. If you don't do rods its a gamble, if you do install them its not :beer:


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> I bent two rods on *stock turbo,downpipe and manifolds* running E85(AFR was good, IAT and EGT were low and there was no knock). Altough it is not typical, it is possible ... 360 awtq did it on the stock hardware.


You would have to be seeing boost spikes at 30 psi and above! Thats not the same situation on this turbo. You would only show a 20 psi spike and it would be at a higher RPM then your K04 was. The UNI 630cc file is meant to run at 20 psi. I really dont think you will have a problem running the F23 at 20 psi.

Slappy do you know when the F23 hits full boost?


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

l88m22vette said:


> 314whp/338ft-lbs on a mk5 with a k04 swap: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71860
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The 2.0's have weaker rods then the 1.8t's that why that put such restrictive fuel pumps on those cars! I want to see bent rods on a 225 not SPIKING 30+ psi

Who has a gt28 on their 225....We need some of those guys in here because it has the closest flow characteristics to the F23! :thumbup:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> You would have to be seeing boost spikes at 30 psi and above! Thats not the same situation on this turbo. You would only show a 20 psi spike and it would be at a higher RPM then your K04 was. The UNI 630cc file is meant to run at 20 psi. I really dont think you will have a problem running the F23 at 20 psi.
> 
> Slappy do you know when the F23 hits full boost?



It was posted earlier in this thread that the f23 is seeing full boost before 3000rpm.


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

omerkm1 said:


> It was posted earlier in this thread that the f23 is seeing full boost before 3000rpm.


Is that known for sure and has been tested or is that a guess?


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> Is that known for sure and has been tested or is that a guess?



Thats coming straight from the owner of frankenturbo. I dont think that anyone is actually running a f23 yet?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Smaller turbos break stock engines, even though we have 19mm/20mm sintered rods, they simply are not as good as forged IEs or Brutes or whatever. ... The reason you always hear "do rods" is because you _should_, sayings got started for a reason. If you don't do rods its a gamble, if you do install them its not :beer:


Here is what Malone has to say about this and tuning for narrowband ECUs:

_1. Yes, controlling peak torque is easy. Peak torque is a big thing we deal with in TDIs and we've made as much as 400-500 wheel torque @ 2200-2400 RPM out of a few 1.9Ls, but at the same time we can limit them to 200 (or even 10ft-lb if the gearbox is made of glass).

2. I've tuned a 1.8T APX (narrowband) with 1000cc working just fine and passing emissions tests etc. HOWEVER, the only problem with narrowband is with 750cc and 1000cc injectors, or 400HP 1.8Ts, sometimes the lambda adaptation values creep up to 10-15% in the long run. When I tune, I always tune for 0% adaptation. The 10-15% doesn't matter much and clearing the DTCs (even if there are no fault codes) will reset the adaptations. It's not uncommon to scan highly modified 1.8Ts so clearing DTCs (even if codes don't exist) to reset the adaptation is not a big deal.

In the context of Frankenturbo with smaller than 750cc and less than 400HP, there is no drawback whatsoever with narrowband. To answer your question, yes full satisfaction can be achieved with narrowband  Tuners who suggest wideband don't really know what they are doing. I recently looked at [Brand X] and it's all wrong for proper tuning. Their base file has common fueling issues that I also see in Unironic, etc. 

Cheers,
Mark_




1.8 skeet skeet said:


> Is that known for sure and has been tested or is that a guess?


Spool before 3000 is a guess. But it's an educated one.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Well, the BEA does have uprated 20mm wrist pin rods. And Uni specifies their 630cc file for stock motors. _Wideband_ stock motors. I think individuals' driving habits are also a factor. If you drive like you're trying to break something, you probably will.


i have to say i dont drive like speed racer! so i think id be ok to keeeep :laugh: the boost low and still have fun with something that make more power up top, i also dont drop the clutch at 5k not really a street racer but i like to do 3 gear rips on the on ramp to the highway.. i dont think id have to much of a problem keeping the bottom end happy..


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

Slappy how much is the turbo and the inlet pipe?


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> Slappy how much is the turbo and the inlet pipe?




Here is the link to the website. http://frankenturbo.com/new/F23.html

You get the turbo, TIP and DV for $1099.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

these are reason alone to at least go to the website. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x9gA20DkoA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22d3HrxXYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNhrRwfPOBE


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

omerkm1 said:


> these are reason alone to at least go to the website.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x9gA20DkoA
> 
> ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJNROwW-17s


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)

omerkm1 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJNROwW-17s


Raccoon attack?

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## M-Power M3 (Oct 15, 2007)

darrenbyrnes said:


> Raccoon attack?
> 
> :laugh::laugh::laugh:


They love boost! :beer:


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

M-Power M3 said:


> They love boost! :beer:



I hoped that everyone would enjoy those. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

tthem videos are great!! :laugh:


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## [email protected]frankenturbo.com (Jul 1, 2009)

*F23 first fitment*

Here's a quick video of our first prototype running (in a MkIV 20th). This installation exposed an issue with the turbo's machining. Its three bolt holes on the exhaust inlet flange are not quite deep enough for standard OEM bolts. We'll need to supply properly-sized bolts with the turbos to ensure a good, tight fit. Anyway: first look...


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

so has there been any more testing? im keeping an eye on this thread... would like to see some more videos!


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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

20psi now said:


> so has there been any more testing? im keeping an eye on this thread... would like to see some more videos!


Totally agreed :thumbup:


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## BikerDave52 (Feb 4, 2009)

im running a revo tune....i saw revo come up in the thread a few times but nothing on wats possible....id love to try one of these out im in the market for a new turbo and my 225 just chipped is askin for more in the back roads....im also doing a head gasket and rods and the goodies this spring but i dont want to have to switch to uni. for a whole new tune


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Revo has a 550cc Stage 3 file, but they don't recommend using a turbo other than the GT-series Garrett for which it was developed. They are leery of okaying a hardware change such as this on the narrow-band ECU in most TT225 cars. If you are running a wide-band AWP car, I am sure it would work very well.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Not sure if anyone has asked yet, but with gas prices going up im thinking more about going to e85. Any idea what kind of power youd be able to squeeze of of one of your tubos on my 225 running e85? Also, what all would be involved in the build? IE., rods, tune, F23, injectors, etc.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I'd suggest you get in touch with forum sponsor Malone Tuning about that kind of proposal. Are you wideband?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Not sure if anyone has asked yet, but with gas prices going up im thinking more about going to e85. Any idea what kind of power youd be able to squeeze of of one of your tubos on my 225 running e85? Also, what all would be involved in the build? IE., rods, tune, F23, injectors, etc.


I would think mid 300 AWD horsepower and 400 AWTQ if you take full advantage of the extra timing E85 would allow. I am making about 375 AWTQ and 290 AWHP on the stock turbo, manifolds and downpipe chocking everything down.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I'd suggest you get in touch with forum sponsor Malone Tuning about that kind of proposal. Are you wideband?


Yeah, I've got an 04 BEA.



madmax199 said:


> I would think mid 300 AWD horsepower and 400 AWTQ if you take full advantage of the extra timing E85 would allow. I am making about 375 AWTQ and 290 AWHP on the stock turbo, manifolds and downpipe chocking everything down.


Wow! Sounds like a potent combo. Oh yeah, I forgot to add a clutch to that list.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

The only thing about e85, you get worse mileage because there isn't as much energy per gallon


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

l88m22vette said:


> The only thing about e85, you get worse mileage because there isn't as much energy per gallon


yeah, but with all that crazy **** going on in the middle east we could see the beginning of REALLY BAD gas prices. So bad we'd kill for $4 a gallon gas. Id rather bypass all the shananigans.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> The only thing about e85, you get worse mileage because there isn't as much energy per gallon


Not really an energy thing, it is one of the many misconception about E85, and I'll explain why:

Gas has 114,000 btu/gal
E85 has 81,000 btu/gal

However, you also have to understand how you burn both. Gas has a stoich value of 14.7 while E85 is only 9.765

114,000/14.7 gives you 7750btu burned for gas
81,000/9.765 gives you 8289btu burned for E85

That's why you usually see power increased just by switching the fuels and correcting AFR accordingly( adding boost and timing will give even more power)

The reason you may see a mileage decrease is because you need to flow more of it per min(about 1.5 volume wise)

To me, after converting a few cars including the TT, if tuned right it is a wash in terms of consumption. I cruise at leaner lambda values(gas calibrated AFR of 17:1 in the evo and 15:9 in theTT) and my WOT are also a lot leaner at .82 lambda targeted safely. 

If you take into account the price difference($2.80 vs $3.60 average in my area) it's a win win for a more powerful, cooler burning, more oxygenated fuel that don't entirely enrich terrorists.


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## roadking90 (Feb 13, 2012)

So slappy, 
What would be a great setup for my 2002 TT Quattro 225 using the frankenturbo? I have forge tip, forge DV, 42DD downpipe, custom cat-back, and 4 bar FPR. What else should I get such as injectors, MAF, fuel pump and whatever? I'm new to this so I rly dont know much, sorry. Also ill be using Revo tuning.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Do you know the engine code of your 2002 car?


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## roadking90 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have the AMU. I'll give a complete run down of my car. 

Its a 2002 TT Quattro 225 AMU code. Currently have Neuspeed Intake, Forge TIP, Miltek Cat-back, and Forge DV/BOV splitter. 

Installing 42DD Downpipe, either the 42 DD cat back system or create a custom exhaust, 4-Bar FPR, replace all rubber hoses with Silicone hoses, CTS FMIC, Frankenturbo whatever number(lol), Frankenturbo exhaust manifold, NGK Spark Plugs, Ignition Coils, Southbend clutch, Forge catch can, and Revo Stage 2 tune.


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