# vr6 ITB's?!



## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

is there anyone out there that has itb's on their 24v vr6?!?!?! would be interesting for power gains


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (vdub5818)*

Yum...
http://www.bubsy.co.uk/share/24vitb.avi


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

yea but is that a 100% custom job or does anyone make a kit for it"?


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## LISTO14 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

you better look into engine management too.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

No, you will not be able to find a kit for it...


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (LISTO14)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LISTO14* »_you better look into engine management too.

You dont need engine managment for carbs. You dont need to control fuel injectors, or get signals from the crank, cams etc.


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

um who's talking about carbs.....
i believe the poster said ITB's...
its been done...would be interesting to see there was a post about 2-3 pages long on all-motor 24v's that had some info on pros/cons of running itb's on a 24v jeff attwood got into talking a bit about cam phasing...i cant seem to dig it up tho







anyone remember the post name....it wasnt long but was a good post


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_um who's talking about carbs.....


Sorry, ITB's


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
Sorry, ITB's









Uhm -- ITB's CAN be ran on either carbs or EFI -- but running ITB's doesnt really have anything to do with using carbs or not -- I am sure they were talking about EFI -- and you cant run the stock management with ITB unless you put them all into a plenum past the throttle bodies, which kind of makes it pointless to run the ITB's anyways.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_
Uhm -- ITB's CAN be ran on either carbs or EFI -- but running ITB's doesnt really have anything to do with using carbs or not -- I am sure they were talking about EFI -- and you cant run the stock management with ITB unless you put them all into a plenum past the throttle bodies, which kind of makes it pointless to run the ITB's anyways.








I never said anything about running ITB's had to do with using carbs or not. And i know that running managment defeats the purpose of running ITB's, thats why i said you didnt need managment to control injectors, or any of the sensors that the motronic 7.1 system needs to see how much torque is needed, etc.







. I am by no means a carb/ ITB expert, but dont you rip out the engine managment, put in the ITB's, get spark, and convert to DBC (clearly not everything you have to do, but the jist of it)


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (PhReE)*

well you can run single webbers on anything but that doesnt mean i call it a throttle body...technically the early days of EFi was just single butterfly with a giant injector....but thats irrelevant because you wouldnt call that a CARB. cause it isnt a carb its a throttle body








*"and you cant run the stock management with ITB unless you put them all into a plenum past the throttle bodies"*
can you rephrase this statement because it makes no sense....your putting the throttle bodies past the throttle bodies????
did you mean putting all the throttle bodies into a plenum???
if you did you wouldnt be able to controll 6 DBW throttle bodies off stock engine management


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## LISTO14 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
You dont need engine managment for carbs. You dont need to control fuel injectors, or get signals from the crank, cams etc.


.....Drive by wire, TPS, and the maf







how can you run stock management with ITB's?




_Modified by LISTO14 at 8:32 PM 2-24-2008_


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (LISTO14)*

i made a thread about this a while back.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3463950


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (LISTO14)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LISTO14* »_

.....Drive by wire, TPS, and the maf







how can you run stock management with ITB's?
_Modified by LISTO14 at 8:32 PM 2-24-2008_

You dont use TPS and MAF with carbs







Thats what i was saying you dont need managment...


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (RipCity Euros)*

Real sharp engine compartment but I wonder how much power is LOST from drawing in all the hot air off the radiator? Not a good design unfortunately.


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## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (TechMeister)*

youd need a great tune or standalone, im sure you could do it with 034 pretty easily


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (TechMeister)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TechMeister* »_Real sharp engine compartment but I wonder how much power is LOST from drawing in all the hot air off the radiator? Not a good design unfortunately.









He had to move the radiatior for clearance issues. so it is a good design


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (RipCity Euros)*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVS3CI-9C4E
same engine in action


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## Fat Jon (Feb 27, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

ohhh the joys of the 24v forum.


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (VR6JettaGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6JettaGLI* »_youd need a great tune or standalone, im sure you could do it with 034 pretty easily

a great tune has nothing to do with it ......fueling/spark isnt the issue using stock management...spark remains the same fueling can be adjusted...but you must remember where are you gonna put a MAF??
as far as i know all the ITB's i have seen worked of MAP tuning...
correct me if i'm wrong....


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (Corradokcid)*

Yeah sorry that's what I meant you would need to make a common plenum in in front of the tb's so you could run the maf -- but you would still need to cable control the tb's manually -- seems like too much of a pain really heh.
Yes I believe pretty much everyone running ITB's uses standalone so they are MAP based. 


_Modified by PhReE at 10:02 AM 2-25-2008_


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_







I never said anything about running ITB's had to do with using carbs or not. And i know that running managment defeats the purpose of running ITB's, thats why i said you didnt need managment to control injectors, or any of the sensors that the motronic 7.1 system needs to see how much torque is needed, etc.







. I am by no means a carb/ ITB expert, but dont you rip out the engine managment, put in the ITB's, get spark, and convert to DBC (clearly not everything you have to do, but the jist of it)

Carb's and ITB's are seporate things -- we are talkin about using ITB's but not using carbs.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_
Carb's and ITB's are seporate things -- we are talkin about using ITB's but not using carbs.

I know, thats why i said









_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
Sorry, ITB's


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## Fat Jon (Feb 27, 2007)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_Yeah sorry that's what I meant you would need to make a common plenum in in front of the tb's so you could run the maf -- but you would still need to cable control the tb's manually -- seems like too much of a pain really heh.
Yes I believe pretty much everyone running ITB's uses standalone so they are MAP based. 

_Modified by PhReE at 10:02 AM 2-25-2008_

yeah, generally there will exist a port, between each of the throttle bodies and the cylinder head, what will be TEE'd together with the other 3 ports and run into one MAP sensor which will be used to tune the motor.


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

ty fat jon


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

i believe grant motorsports has a kit out but it's damn near 5k for the kit with DTA. I think u can find hp for cheaper else where IMO or make them your self which isn't hard.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*

Building a Naturally Aspirated Engine is an honour and I tip my hat off to anyone that can successfully pull it off.Vento_Gareth is probably the only person _I know_ that has done it successfully with proven results.I dont have a dyno of his engine but you can read all about it in Performance VW.I have sent him this link so hopefully he will chime in.


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

i just want the ITBS for the amazing throttle response you get out of them. for my old e36 bmw there were quite a few people that had kits for only about 2500-3000. but then again it is an inline 6 and the tb's were in a complete straight line. much easier to do i would imagine


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## Velocity_Sport_Tuned (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Building a Naturally Aspirated Engine is an honour and I tip my hat off to anyone that can successfully pull it off.Vento_Gareth is probably the only person _I know_ that has done it successfully with proven results.I dont have a dyno of his engine but you can read all about it in Performance VW.I have sent him this link so hopefully he will chime in.









Same here ..There are easier ways to make power ..."but" if you can get a fair ammount of power N/A from the 2.8 24v thats quite an achievement in my book







.. _It`s kind of like getting blood from a turnup _















Hopefully Vento_Gareth can chime in here and give some good pointers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## B Arndt (Dec 20, 2000)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (vdub5818)*

A really nice plenum setup works just REALLY great.
I guess it's cool to have the throttle bodies but a lot of work, cost, and getting them setup can be a bitch. Plus not much room in that area.
You must really think why you want this setup and weigh your options before diving into this venture.
Just offering another option for you.









As for power gains that argument could go on forever.
BA


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (B Arndt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B Arndt* »_
You must really think why you want this setup and weigh your options before diving into this venture.


fully agree.


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## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_
a great tune has nothing to do with it ......fueling/spark isnt the issue using stock management...spark remains the same fueling can be adjusted...but you must remember where are you gonna put a MAF??
as far as i know all the ITB's i have seen worked of MAP tuning...
correct me if i'm wrong....



Well, I wouldn't say _nothing_ to do with it, tuning ALWAYS matters, its just not what makes the ITB setup tricky. Since you can't use an MAF without a plenum over the throttles, you need to either run a MAP-based setup OR, more ideally, Alpha-N, which bases your fueling strictly off of RPM, TPS, and IAT inputs. The only reason I say that Alpha-N is better for ITBs is because for the throttles to be worth anything, you also need to be running wicked cams, which generally translates into an erratic and/or low vacuum signal which can drive a MAP-based setup crazy. You can use a vacuum canister or manifold to try and smoothe out the pulses you'd get, but these only have varying degrees of success.
From what I understand of Motronic engine management, I don't think its impossible to build fuel maps based off Alpha-N protocols, so assuming you found a tuner willing and able, you could keep the factory ecu, but it would have to be flashed and using the factory harness would leave things like the throttle-by-wire connector dangling in your engine bay.


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: vr6 ITB's?! (Scarab_Beetle)*

what defines great tune????
adjusting fuel??? 
i think you misunderstood where i was coming from....
anything that runs properly need proper a/f's....what i was getting at what defines a great tune? proper a/f's? well all car's need proper A/f's ITB's or not.....



_Modified by Corradokcid at 7:00 AM 3-7-2008_


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## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

Great tune means not only have proper AF's, but a timing map that isn't constantly on knock retard, but also doesn't leave a crapload of advance off. Its a tune that otherwise lets the engine run as it would have from the factory, despite being highly modified. Its a tune that that idles properly, and will work perfectly in all conditions. I've seen a lot of tuners who write fuel tables but never take the time to properly square away things like IAT/ECT offsets and decel fuel trims and you wind up having a car that runs great sometimes, and stalls, bogs, refuses to start, or does other weird crap other times. Tuning is more than just an air/fuel ratio. And since ITBs represent the challenge of not having a common vacuum source as I said, you'll need someone who knows how to tune Alpha-N style, or can find some way to make a MAP setup work properly without going nuts over an erratic vacuum signal. Just as a disclaimer, I do not believe myself to know anywhere near enough about tuning to do it myself or for anyone else, but I do believe I know enough to recognize an experienced tuner from an incompetent one.


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Scarab_Beetle)*

cant agree anymore there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
itbs are tuff to tune on a obd2 without making on/off switch like power
a consistant vaccuum source that doesnt pulse is def. a issue when tuning itb's....because like he said on map tuning with ITB's consitant vaccuum is needed otherwise the computer will act erractic because of the rapid decline/incline....so yes there is more to it then a/f's
you are correct
excellent explanation scarab http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

lol i feel like i passed a pop quiz or something hahahaha... do I at least get a gold star sticker or something?


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

well im not talking about running filters directly off the TB's, im looking for a setup kinda like this....








that carbon intake mani doesnt allow the use of a MAF, but this is the only pic i could find that shows the tb's with the plenum after it. this is the stock setup








this pic clearly shows the tb's then the plenum then the MAF. and to those who think this doesnt make a difference, euro spec s52b32 m3 motor makes 321hp, us spec s52 makes 240


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Scarab_Beetle)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
three gold stars.... it just helps people to grasp how things really work
i always encourage people to buy the jeff hartman book on how to tune engine managment systems...its a great cheap book that really makes you understand modern ecu's in simple terms


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

how will you be controlling the throttle bodies?


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

you mean by mechanically or electronically?


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

yea


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## Fugee (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

How much would you guys pay for acomplete ITB setup( 50MM) tolt on to a 24V? My buddies shop is putting a setup togehter and if there would be enough interest we could get something going on!


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## Velocity_Sport_Tuned (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: (Fugee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fugee* »_How much would you guys pay for acomplete ITB setup( 50MM) tolt on to a 24V?!

Well if they worked properly.......this much


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (Velocity_Sport_Tuned)*

i'd love ITB's if i could, but boost is calling me


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (vdub5818)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdub5818* »_well im not talking about running filters directly off the TB's, im looking for a setup kinda like this....
this pic clearly shows the tb's then the plenum then the MAF. and to those who think this doesnt make a difference, euro spec s52b32 m3 motor makes 321hp, us spec s52 makes 240


your comparing a vr6 to the m3 that makes 321hp. bmw is the god of all motor power from the factory thats until Porsche came out with their 4xxhp car with 3.6 liters flat 6. itb's are all fun and dandy but if your going to put them on a car that doesn't have them might as well get the most out of them using standalone imo.
i still think a well made intake manifold/tb combo will make more power then itb's.


_Modified by fourthchirpin at 12:03 AM 3-10-2008_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_i still think a well made intake manifold/tb combo will make more power then itb's.

Dont think so....not if you are staying NA (Forced Induced is another story).
Now the whole reason people go with ITB's is for throttle response (and the noise).
Can an ITB set up be done on a 24V? Sure...but you will need to overcome the following:
* DBW - There are OEM DBW set ups that allow you to run ITB's.Just got to know where to look.







.That being said,the cost of said set ups are insane to the point where a DBC conversion is in order.Once that is done you will need a chip
* MAF - I brain stormed with this a time back when I had my R32 head looking @ various set ups across the net.You will need to create a plenum and relocate your MAF to the passenger side bumper or to be over the gearbox.
* PRICE - ITB's are not cheap and there is no reason why your German built Volkswagen should get cheap ass ebay throttle bodies to suite your desire.The biggest problem with this industry (which I found out the hard way) is that everyone wants wants wants but no one is willing to pay for it.Venture over to the evolution forums and whatever the guys want they *get* and not because they are a more mature crowd (they really actually are),but because they actually know what stuff costs and they SPEND the money needed.
Whatever the case if you have the money or time to import parts then you can get an ITB set up from here for ~ 3000US.
















And of course the set up its on:


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

wiz could you show us a example of a ITB DBW.....im interested in how there did this???do the 24v throttles see 5volts?? or am i wrong on that?? are you just using some sort of amplifying to get the power across 6 throttles??? very curious on how this works http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
this would make things alot easier for the 24v crowd because stock managment would still be usable


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## Fat Jon (Feb 27, 2007)

*Re: (vdub5818)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdub5818* »_and to those who think this doesnt make a difference, euro spec s52b32 m3 motor makes 321hp, us spec s52 makes 240


The S52B32 is the 3.2 L M3 version of the M52. It produced 240 hp (179 kW).
just FYI...


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

that clip on the first page sounds amazing


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

trust me man bmws are my thing, the us spec s52 is 240hp, the eurospec s52b32 makes 321. the us spec s50(95-96) makes 240hp, the euro spec s50b32 makes 289hp.


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## Fat Jon (Feb 27, 2007)

*Re: (vdub5818)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdub5818* »_trust me man bmws are my thing, the us spec s52 is 240hp, the eurospec s52b32 makes 321. the us spec s50(95-96) makes 240hp, the euro spec s50b32 makes 289hp.

well maybe you should go back to the BEEEEMER forums and read some more cuz you're about to get schooled.
The US version, was actually designated the "S52B32" it makes 240hp
The engine commonly referred to as the "Euro S52 motor" is actually an "S50B32" it makes 321hp.


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## eddiemiller (Jan 3, 2002)

*Re: (Scarab_Beetle)*

maybe a simple question:
so would there be 6 throttle plates on an ITB setup? and would it just be regular cable linkage?
and where would the filters be? i mean in the pics before i just seen the 6 horns?
thanks.


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (eddiemiller)*

yes 6 throttle bodies linked together through a common rail....
you can make a filter box around the horns


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

wow, typo ERROR, yea the s50b32 is 321 the s50b30 is 280, and the s52b32 is 240 as is the s50b30us


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

i would run a manifold off the 6 tb's and then run a maf off that, then filter


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## BakBer (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

I'm pretty sure that is how the M3 works but I'm not a bimmer guy so IDK.


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

thats exactly how it works, but why cant that be used for our cars?!


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

it can be done.....just gotta remember the MAF is gonna be seeing volume that it didnt with 1 throttle body..... so you need somone who knows there stuff on these ECU's...cough cough jeff


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

But that is the beauty of a MAF -- so long as you arent pulling so much air that you scale beyond the max output volts of the maf -- it should read ~perfectly. (Get a BIGger Maf housing, and proper software..







)


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

i was just going to say half way through reading that jeffffffffff lol
DBW ITB's would solve alot of issues in wanting to run ITB here in the north, because SEM is illegal...well not illegal persay, but won't pass NYS inspection on an OBDII car


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: (Attack.:Rabbit)*

yea if you run out of room with the stock housing you can always go bigger....but i doubt that will happen unless your making 300whp+
just some dyno time.... the DBW solution def. make things much easier....now if the wiz can only show us how to make 6 TB's work together


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (Corradokcid)*

i'd imagine you just link it from the DBW mechanism the same way you would link ITB's from the cable


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*

Just seen this post, this may give you some insparation








































It's still running mild schrick cams 264/268's and has just run 262 WHP 300bhp at the crank at 7288rpm and 240 lb/ft torque at 5400rpm


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## MeiK (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

^^^ Details please. 
...The first time I'm actually interested about a N/A VR6. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 262whp ain't too shabby.


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## vdub5818 (Jan 20, 2008)

Thread back from the dead. Glad to see someone had some progress in this field.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (vdub5818)*

The original build thread is http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
but there is another thread up on edition38 forum in readers rides, do a search for Vento_Gareth and it should come up.
This may be of some insparation when it comes to noise! check out the second half of the clip with me gunning the tunnels in Rotterdam with my mate Ash in his S3 Polo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcVH5Ir4G6c
262whp may not sound like much but the car out performs many forced induction cars with far more power. The throttle response and mid range grunt is immense, it's pulling hard up to 7400rpm with short gear ratios. M3's may have more power but they also have far more weight than my car. I'm regularly taking on and beating S4's to 100mph and having fun up behind RS4's in my car








_Modified by Vento_Gareth at 3:40 PM 7-21-2009_


_Modified by Vento_Gareth at 3:42 PM 7-21-2009_


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## MatadoR32 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Your links are being parsed incorrectly, getting a 404 error.








*edit* Yay they work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by MatadoR32 at 11:01 AM 7-21-2009_


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

They should work now, I've tried both and they are O'k for me.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Lets see the dyno chart http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## koko5869 (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

so basically what is needed(compiled from a bunch of different threads ((not necessarily needed for 24v??))....
(i know nothing of itb's)
ITBs
matched trumpets/horns/filters/throttle cable linkage
manifold(s)
injectors
fuel rail
fpr & fuel lines (basic AN- fittings?)
standalone
most likely machining down the alt.
I'm not sure of.....
MAP Sensor
coolant flange
air temp sensor
throttle position sensor (included in itb's?)
wideband o2 sensor/controller


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (koko5869)*


_Quote, originally posted by *koko5869* »_so basically what is needed(compiled from a bunch of different threads ((not necessarily needed for 24v??))....
(i know nothing of itb's)
ITBs
matched trumpets/horns/filters/throttle cable linkage
manifold(s)
injectors
fuel rail
fpr & fuel lines (basic AN- fittings?)
standalone
most likely machining down the alt.
I'm not sure of.....
MAP Sensor
coolant flange
air temp sensor
throttle position sensor (included in itb's?)
wideband o2 sensor/controller

Injectors, fuel rail, fuel lines can all be left as standard if you like. You will need stand alone management and yes you will need to do alternator and bracket modifications. Not sure what you mean about coolant flange? I'm just running the crank sensor, air and water temp sensors and one of the throttle housings is fitted with a throttle position sensor which can be bought with the ITB's from Jenvey. I'm not running a closed loop set-up but the car is mapped using a wideband sensor.


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## koko5869 (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

idk where i got that either?








the 16v guys use a lot of throttle bodies from street bikes. 
which i have a lot of access to. think gsxr750 throttle bodies would work fine?


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (koko5869)*


_Quote, originally posted by *koko5869* »_idk where i got that either?








the 16v guys use a lot of throttle bodies from street bikes. 
which i have a lot of access to. think gsxr750 throttle bodies would work fine?

I think Big Ron's Mk1 3.1 12v VR6 ITB runs bike carbs, there are loads of photo's on the net of his grey Mk1 Golf. If you haven't seen that drop me a PM with your email address and I will bang some over to you.


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## koko5869 (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

I'm gonna do a lot more research, just realized how ignorant my post was. 
I wanted to do it a while ago, but figuring out the tune would I think be the roughest part. And my buddy (mk3 12v) joked, we'd each have to blow up at least one motor for the sake of lab testing. 
12v= $400 and the 24v was still at like $2g's. 
Will do though. Thanks.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

Throttle bodies aren't difficult and there is more chance of blowing a forced induction engine than ITB's. I've been running ITB's on 24v for 6 years now and I drive the car hard every time I take it out, it's never once broken down. You just need to get a reliable mangaement system and someone who knows how to map the car properly. It takes skill to get an ITB engine running smooth at idle and nicely balanced.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Lets see the dyno chart http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## fulleloaded (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_









Damn that's a clean chart http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
What kind of dyno was this?


_Modified by fulleloaded at 10:58 PM 7-22-2009_


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## Ld7w_VR (Apr 21, 2006)

*Re: (fulleloaded)*

Really interesting thread. Can not wait to read more info on the subject of ITB's on a 24v VR.
One thing I would like to know is what a Alpha-N style tune is. I have never heard of this.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (fulleloaded)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fulleloaded* »_
Damn that's a clean chart http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
What kind of dyno was this?

_Modified by fulleloaded at 10:58 PM 7-22-2009_

It's on the Track N Road dyno, they are expert mappers and engine builders. They do a lot of work on specialist race cars, single seaters, 24h cars, touring cars, DTM things like that. It's a very accuarate dyno, I could probably take it to another dyno and get a graph showing 320bhp but it's just a number and doesn't reflect how quick the car is on the road. It's all about improvements made on the same dyno so pick someone you trust and stick with them.


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## koko5869 (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (fulleloaded)*

yea really, look at that curve.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

They took their time and ran it up on the dyno loads of times until they were happy with the air/fuel ratio, the line is prety flat on the graph. The fine tuning means no flat spots in the map just a nice clean power curve. Anyone in the UK wanting mapping should consider Track N Road, very knowledgeable chaps when it comes to trick engines.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Let me start by saying this is not bashing you. I really like what you have done, it is very well executed..looks great, sounds great and is unique.
If we look at this in black & white.. that graph shows just how well designed the stock R32 intake manifold truly is. 
Between it and the variable cam timing, an otherwise similarly tuned R32 engine achieves the same peak hp and substantially more tq especially under 5k.
The first thing to point out on the chart is that they graph both crank hp and wheel hp.. but the tq graph is only shown at the engine. 
Lets calculate the drivetrain loss % they have used for hp and converting the tq #'s.
Taking the 300bhp down to 262.5whp would be a 12.5% loss 
(not even remotely accurate to real world losses, but that is a different discussion.. be happy, your car is actually making more than 300 crank assuming this was an all wheel dyno, not fwd.)
So if we hit up the crank TQ curve and apply the same 12.5% loss we get the following-
Bear with me, your chart is hard to be exact with since they do not show the graphing lines..everything has to be eyeballed.
It looks as though you are hitting 200 crank tq at 3700RPM. 200 - 12.5% = 175 wheel tq. By comparison a stock manifold + cam timing system with intake/cams/exhaust/chip is making 230-235 wheel tq at the same RPM.
You are making your peak tq from roughly 5500 to 6200..
240 crank - 12.5% = 210 wheel tq.
The stock manifold/cam timing setup with otherwise similar mods doesn't fall below 210 wheel tq the entire rpm range until over 6500ish.
You can see where the ITB's make a positive change up top where the peak power stays strong right up to your 7400 rev limit. By comparison, the stock parts make the power peak then decline right around 6600-6700.
This is very similar to the results HPA got with the CVP manifold (short runner based design).. they lost massive TQ thorughout most of the rev range and they also held peak hp further at the very upper RPM .
Again, this is not bashing you. It appears they did a great job on the WOT mapping. I give you a lot of respect for trying new things. I did the same thing when I ported my R32 cyl head..spent a lot of money and time on it and the results didn't match what they should have on paper.
Once some larger cams are available you should see the benefits of increased breathing capabilities up top. Then the low end loss won't matter when you can rev it out to 8k ala BMW.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

Mine is FWD and I don't need big torque as I'm running a 4.24 final drive in my O2A box which means my revs never drop below 4,500 when I'm on it. I've gone head to head with 4wd R32 with 305bhp crank power at a runway and I was quicker to 100mph by over a second. If the R32 launches quicked due to 4wd and has more torque and more power how did I beat him? It's not all about the numbers its about the way a throttle bodied car delivers the power.
Power train losses are generated from the dyno on run down after every go and I think they are prety accuarte. I could have gone to a different dyno and had 25% losses given and had a much higher crank power figure but that's not the point.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

Don't get me started on run down losses... again. Unless you did it by switching off the ecu and had the throttle wide open, they're very far off.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_If the R32 launches quicked due to 4wd and has more torque and more power how did I beat him?


Easy.. your car weighs substantially less, and the gearing is probably more aggressive.
If it is fwd then the drivetrain loss will be less than awd naturally. 
Still nowhere near as low as 12% though.
You are correct that crank #'s don't mean squat.. it is what is at the wheels that matters as that is what moves the car.
The problem is, now knowing that the car is FWD, your results should be much higher. Other than being cool and sounding good the throttlebodies/standalone are hurting your results big time.
Your engine is putting out substantially less power (even peak hp) than it would with the stock intake manifold and cam timing functional on the standard R32 EMS and a flash.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

That's fine, stick to your standard bolt ons if you think there better.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

What et does your car run at that power? 260+ has been made on a stock R32 longblock with 268/264s, standalone, exhaust, intake, 75mm tb, with the stock manifold. That car weighed about 2500 and went 12.0, which backs up the power pretty well. 
Either the dyno used is conservative (other then the spindown numbers), or there's something up with your setup.


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

The dyno numbers are conservative, other cars that I know of that have run there have gone on to run 10-15% higher on other dyno's. I'm not that bothered with numbers as I know the car feels strong on the road. My mate had a Mk4 R32 with cams, remap and Miltek exhaust and hi-flow CAT's and he couldn't believe how quick my car felt and how much more pull it had at the top end. I have a couple of Vortex regulars from the US staying at mine for Edition38 this summer, perhaps I will get them to post after they have had a ride in my Vento. They are both used to driving similar power cars so we will see how mine compares.
I don't mind if mine remains one of a very select few running ITB's as it helps me stand out and win at all the shows I enter.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*

After they get back send them my way for a ride, I want as direct a comparo as possible with a car that doesn't make a lot of power.








There won't be a ton more running ITB's until the power gains are more proven on that motor. The stock manifolds are decent on the 24v.


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## eric62backstrom (Nov 16, 2008)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*















juat because..


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