# Surging when cold and Sometimes Rough Idle- 2011 CC 2.0



## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

My CC has always had a_ cold engine surge_, since new. Usually only occured during winter months.

It is now happening at every start up-_warm months included_. 

Also now experiencing an _occasional rough idle_ and maybe some_ slight stumbling during acceleration_.

_Mpg_ may not be as good as in the past?

Dealer has updated the software and no improvement, at all.

Dealer wants to do an intake pressurized treatment for $190. Thinks that this may
be a carbon build up?

I have alsways used _ Red Line fuel system cleaner_ and _Marvel Mystery Oil i_n all fill ups. Also _Strartron_
additive every few fill ups.

I also have the option to have it checked at a local independent vw shop, who
did not think it was a carbon issue. Leaning towards a blocked vacuum?

Due to the fact that the surging was present since new, I'm not sure how to approach this.

All suggestions will be appreciated!


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## ChelCC (Sep 1, 2016)

I also like doing an additive here and there but unfortunately the fuel additives won't do anything to help keep the valves clean on the direct injection motor. Your money may be better spent on a catch can. How many miles are on your car now? Depending on your mileage, carbon build up could be a contributing factor if the car is due for one but I agree that the issue is probably related to something else being that its acted like that since new. I would recommend the independent shop over the dealer in this instance.


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## mdtony (Mar 3, 2008)

How many miles?
Any CEL codes?
When were the plugs/coils done last?

Most likely its either carbon build up or plugs/coils...

190 for carbon clean doesn't sound right... its more of a 500-700 dollar job at the dealer.
They might be offering you a fuel injector cleaning...


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## ChelCC (Sep 1, 2016)

mdtony said:


> How many miles?
> 190 for carbon clean doesn't sound right... its more of a 500-700 dollar job at the dealer.
> They might be offering you a fuel injector cleaning...


I think he said that the $190 was for a smoke test.


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## OEMplusCC (Jan 27, 2013)

What you just described sounds like a *carbon build up*. The only way to get it cleaned is to remove the intake manifold and have it cleaned manually. As someone mentioned already this is 500-700 service.

Or you might get lucky and your intake manifold will go bad which is covered under extended warranty. When they go replace your intake manifold ask them to do cleaning as well. This "extra" service can be in range of $150-$300.


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

55000 miles

The independent vw shop did the initial test and forund no errors.
They also found the software was out of date.

I went to the dealer who brought the software up to date with
the latest software.

The dealer advised doing the $190. pressurized treatment to the 
intake to eliminate any build up.

Hope I worded all of this correctly?


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

What are the typical symptoms of carbon build up?

The dealer suggested the BG products system:

BG Air Intake System Cleaner
PN 206

BG Air Intake System Cleaner removes deposits that can accumulate in the air throttle body assemblies and plenums.

Heavy deposits are common in the air intake because to help control emissions, noxious exhaust gases and crankcase vapors are captured and fed back into the air intake system. Gummy substances contained in these vapors combine with dirt and form deposits. These deposits will substantially reduce airflow, disrupting the critical air/fuel ratio that is essential to engine operation and fuel efficiency.

The result is:

Rough idle
Poor performance
Increased exhaust emissions

As an integral part of the BG Fuel/Air Induction Service, professional-use BG Air Intake System Cleaner is used with the BG AIS Cleaning Tool Kit, PN 9206, and provides a complete “on engine” cleaning of the air throttle body assembly and plenum area of the engine.


I changed the plugs round 50K. Coils are original-not replaced.

I have read several threads where many contributors have stated
they have the same issue and have not been able to find a way to 
resolve the cold surge.


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## Leisure_Shoot (May 26, 2017)

glad it's not just me. I've had the same thing since new. 2014 with 73K here. slightly worse than when new, but not much.


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## snobrdrdan (Sep 10, 2008)

That BG cleaner they're trying to sell you will NOT fix the problem.
As others on here already stated, you need to physically clean the valves

Call around to local dealers or find a independent VW shop that will do a carbon cleaning *OR* do it yourself: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5355100-TSI-Intake-Manifold-Removal-DIY-Valve-Cleaning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6jkEyncdCA


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

*Is a hose missing on this fitting??*

I am attaching 2 photos of the engine. In the center of the photo there
is a plastic fitting with a flange.

Looks as if it should have a hose pushed
onto it? 

Could this be the issue?



















Watched some youtube videos where someone sprayed water into the intake air,
and another video showed Marvel Mystery Oil being sprayed in while the engine was
running and hot.

Can this help?


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## CedarburgTDI (Jul 14, 2014)

The photos that you have mentioned don't seem to show up (at least from where I am).

The message that folks are trying to get across is that your car, with your mileage has intake ports that, more likely than not, look like the before photo:










This condition is normal and to be expected for the 2.0TFSI engine. There is not a single snake oil, BG products, super-mega-intake-cleaner, or other liquid that you can send down though the intake manifold with the engine running that will remedy the carbon buildup shown in the photo above. The most common method that shops use to take care of this issue, and get the ports looking like the "after" photo is media blasting with walnut shells or similar.

Why any honest mechanic would suggests a liquid cleaner as a first fix for $250 is beyond me. Informed readers know that you'll end up spending 2x that amount shortly after the snake oil treatment for a real manifold-off intake cleaning.


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## snobrdrdan (Sep 10, 2008)




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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

*Follow up, after the repair*

Here is what we found. Had the local VW repair shop do the work.

They ran the diagnostics and used the scope to see if we had carbon build up.

They found unusually high amount of carbon build up, and a slight tear in the
diaphram of the breather valve.

They disassembled and manually cleaned the valves and installed a new breather valve.

Advised me against using the Marvel Mystery oil and Red Line fuel system cleaner. Thye
felt that they may be contributing to the largecarbon build up at only 55k.

They did advised using the VW G17 additive and said that it may help prevent future
carbon build up.

The results:

The engine runs so much better! Smoother, and more powerful. 

The best result is how smoothly the tubo integration is, when it kicks in.

Before the repair is was annoying and difficult to drive with the turbo
engaging. It would give you whiplash. Now, it's hard to tell it's even there.

_So, yes, you were all correct...it was carbon build up needing to be cleaned out._

My opinion, when you notice the turbo interfrering with the smooth operation
of this engine, it's a good time to check for carbon build up.

The surging may be back to what we experienced when the car was new. Surging on Cold starts,
during the cold months. We are not getting the surging on cold starts or warm restarts
that we had before the repair-on warm days.

Regarding the sometimes rough idle- it is there, but more subtle. It is noticable at 
cold start up...you can feel the engine stumbling-slightly.

Any ideas as to what to do or use to prevent future carbon build up...G17, etc.?

Thanks to all. Any feedback will be appreciated.


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## snobrdrdan (Sep 10, 2008)

jodebg said:


> Any ideas as to what to do or use to prevent future carbon build up...G17, etc.?


Again, there is no way to prevent it. It's the by product of direct injection unfortunately


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

snobrdrdan said:


> Again, there is no way to prevent it. It's the by product of direct injection unfortunately


Thanks for your help. Glad we did this...runs so much better!

After a few days of driving we can confirm that the surging is gone on both cold starts in the warm season 
and on warm restarts.

One question. Are either the VW G17 or Red Line Fuel systme cleaner worth using, and how frequently
would you use them.

I was advised to use the G17 every other tank full. At that rate it would cost $1000. over 50,000 miles.


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## mrsteve7 (Jul 3, 2012)

What and where is the "breather valve" you speak of?
Is the the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve?

I've got surging on acceleration between 2500 - 3500rpm I've not been able to lick.


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

mrsteve7 said:


> What and where is the "breather valve" you speak of?
> Is the the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve?
> 
> I've got surging on acceleration between 2500 - 3500rpm I've not been able to lick.


I did not do this repair and don't know where it is. It is a sizable component-I saw the old one off the engine.

How many miles on your engine?


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## mrsteve7 (Jul 3, 2012)

48k on the odo

The PCV valve is quite sizable, so perhaps it was that


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

mrsteve7 said:


> 48k on the odo
> 
> This is when mine began displaying symptoms that something was wrong.
> 
> ...


It's a sizeable part and costs $185.

I will try to get the exact name for you.


One of the issues we had (as the problem progressed) was with turbo kicking in and out
at the around the rpms where you are having your surging. Made driving the car quite difficult.
I think we may just be just using different ways of describing the same problem?

Best thing to do is have a tech scope the intake for carbon buildup and that diapharam for a 
small tear.

My carbon buildup was bad at your current milage and was in need of manual cleaning.
Worth doing! Wish I had it done then.


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## DaGGer (Dec 30, 2004)

I've completed doing the Carbon Cleaning and the worst part is getting everything taken apart as it took me longer to do that than actually clean the carbon. When I was cleaning the valves I did 3 at a time as they were all closed, I filled the intake passage with a cleaner and attached a copper wire brush to my drill and after a few minutes they were nearly perfect. I had to use some picks to get behind the valves, as well as pick some harder deposits but all in all it was really easy. All my injector came out and I did not replace the seal on them and have had no leaks from them, simply cleaned them off and kept them in the intake manifold. I did not replace my Intake Manifold although if you have the money it would help as they do get some bits of carbon on them.

After the cleaning my car no longer had that jump when accelerating nor did it jump around at idle in the cold. I could tell right away that the flappers weren't touching anything or getting caught anymore and it provided a much smoother application of power.


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## mrsteve7 (Jul 3, 2012)

mrsteve7 said:


> What and where is the "breather valve" you speak of?
> Is the the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve?
> 
> I've got surging on acceleration between 2500 - 3500rpm I've not been able to lick.


Thought I'd report back as the problem is now evident and has been resolved ... a failed coil pack.
I assume it was on the way out for the time I noticed the surging and just today it completely failed, and boy did the car shudder bad.
Replaced the coil pack and the car runs smooth as butta now.

Interestingly, there was never a code thrown to give an indication of the problem.


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## jodebg (Sep 9, 2010)

*Follow up to this thread*

My cold engine surge problem has continued to be a problem now all months of the year as well as an unstable idle at start up.

I have also had a key fob issue develop over the last few years. Car would not start when the weather was cold. Had to reinsert the fob several times to get the engine to start. During this time I would also get warnings of defective steering lock spring.

I finally went to the dealer and they replaced the _steering column lock module_. The key fob issue is now gone on both warm and cold days. In addition, it seems as if the surge problem is gone as well. 

The surge problem was getting progressively worse during the same time that the key fob issue was worsening.

Can this module have also been the source of the cold engine surge and the rough idle when cold?

All problems were related to cold weather conditions.


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