# living with DSG



## notawagon (Nov 7, 2005)

I can personally say after living with the Eos these past several days, DSG is great.
It's very interesting to hear and feel the clutch being taking up when starting from a stop. You can also occassionally have the car buck a little just like the feeling of a manual. Not that you're doing it on purpose, but it's interesting and makes others in the car think it is a manual. No negative comments, please. This is just an observation that RARELY happens if you are in 1st gear in stop and go traffic.
Don't worry about the paddle switches being too small or flimsy. I would like them a little longer at the bottom, but it's no big deal. They work fine, are smoot and quiet, and there is NO delay in shifting up or down.
One of the best parts about this transmission is the real-world application. Think about it. When I'm driving I have multiple cell phones (work and personal), the stereo with AM/FM/CD/Sat/Ipod options, and passengers all trying to distract (or add) to your day. Not to mention the huge distraction of driving with the top down.
If you are cruising around town or driving on the highway in light traffic, leave the gear selector in "D" and enjoy a very smooth and quiet drive train. If you suddenly need to be 1, 2, or 3 gears down for traffic pattern changes, simply click the left DSG paddle as necessary and watch and feel the gears change as fast as you can think about it.
Don't worry about having to manually shift them back up again. After a second or two, the DSG simply goes back into "D" mode and resumes what it was doing. Totally seamless and smooth.
If you want more response and involvement, slide the selector back in "S" for sport mode and feel and see a major difference. I like this setting but am sure it will eat up a little more gas. In sport mode, the DSG definitely shifts up at higher points, around 3500RPM or more depending on your acceleration, etc... It also holds gears at a higher rev for a longer time before shifting, just like you would if you were working your way through traffic going up and down the gears and/or staying in the lower gears longer for engine braking, etc... 
Once again, whenever you want or need to override the DSG auto mode, simply tap the appropriate paddle and the car responds. No need to slide the selector over into manual mode. Once you're done, the car goes back into auto mode. In sport mode you will notice the car does not go into 6th gear itself. If you put it there, you will notice after a few seconds it will go back into 5th or even 4th depending on how you're driving. It's very enjoyable how the DSG works with you.
Sport mode kinda reminds me of being on a good horse where all you have to do is move up in the saddle, move your rein hand slightly forward and squeeze your heels slightly against its ribs and the horse knows it's time for a little get up and go. Very intuitive and rewarding.
I know lots of you must have a manual trans. I'm just letting you know that after several days living with DSG in real world conditions versus just a short test drive, it is VERY interesting, enjoyable, and adds another level of sophistication and uniqueness.


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## Shaka (May 20, 2001)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

Good write-up. Totally agree... as a purist who much prefers manual transmission (but whose wife wanted/needed auto), the DSG was a great comprimise.
I'm really impressed with the S mode ... gas guzzling as it may be its really all you need. We dont have the paddles (no sport pkg), so thats the best we can get for now. And at 27+ MPG lately, its really a nice transmission option.
So to add to your write up... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: living with DSG (Shaka)*

Coming from a background of BMWs with manual gearboxes its quite obvious to me that DSG is the way of the future. BMW will be getting dual clutch transmissions next year. They are partnering with Borg-Warner and Getrag. I have to laugh at people who are unwilling to look at anything but a manual. Over in the R32 forum there's all manner of belligerent narrow minded people boo-hooing that the MK5 R32 only comes to the USA with DSG, and its genuinely funny to witness that level of ignorance.


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## IchLiebeVWs (Oct 11, 2006)

Nice job with the description.
I have always driven stick shifts and this is my first automatic. I swore I would never own an automatic. But I have to agree with you it is a wonderful experience especially in sport!


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

Ditto on the compliments for the well written review. I ordered our EOS with DSG because my wife doesn't drive a manual. 
At the time I ordered the car I wasn't fully aware of the technical specifications or operation of the DSG transmission. 
The more I learn following this forum, and researching associated material, the happier I am I ordered the car with DSG.
It will be a few months yet before I have the opportunity to try it, but it sounds like it should be a blast!


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## wy (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

Nice report. I originally wanted the manual for a sports car feel, but after one test drive with the DSG and I was convinced the DSG was the way to go - from a practical AND fun to drive standpoint. After sitting in bumper to bumper traffic this afternoon, I was really glad I got the DSG. When traffic let up, I switched to tiptronic mode and had a blast shifting through downtown traffic.
From a dead stop in D mode, there is a noticeable lag before the car starts moving. But from tiptronic mode, the take off is more immediate. Do you have the same experience?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

Something else that is really nice about having the paddle-shifters (or finger-shifters, I guess you would call them) is that if you happen to be on the freeway, and closing in on another car fairly quickly - too fast to simply let your car slow down if you take your foot off the brake - you can just tap the shifter button to move down one gear... that slows your car down nicely, and you don't have to lift your foot and put it on the brake.
That's about all I use the paddle shifters on the Phaeton for.
Michael


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (wy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wy* »_
From a dead stop in D mode, there is a noticeable lag before the car starts moving.
 I noticed the same 2 sec or so delay, but the dealer said it was "normal". Of course there are many more things wrong with thqat service department, so who knows.


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (wy)*

I have noticed that also. It is worst when the car is not warmed up. I was thinking that maybe it goes to neutral (sort of) so that there is less load on the engine when you are sitting in traffic with your foot on the brake and also to help gas mileage.


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## flyboy104g (May 3, 2005)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

I read your excellent report.
What exactly is the difference between thr DirektSchaltGetriebe on the EOS and the Tiptronic I have on my Touareg?
Thanks


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## justme97 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (flyboy104g)*

I rented a v8 dodge charger with a tiptronic slushbox and even though with all that hp the car was a blast to drive I found the tiptronic to be usueles. Having a "d" option lulled me into auto lazyness but the reality is that i love to shift in my current 5-speed standard car.
Does the dsg becon you to shift more than a torque box-connected tiptronic and if so why exactly? 
Thanks!


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## x9t (Sep 19, 2005)

DSG does not lag when shifting.. unlike the tiptronic.. its shifts instantly.. faster than a manual. Can hold the revs high. But the most important part is it can be set to Automatic mode and ignored. I like the DSG.. but it does not Replace the experience of a Manual Transmission. Granted, a manual in traffic sucks but i love pushing the clutch reving up and shifting down. VW plans to put the DSG on all VW in the future.
JT


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## Gunship (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

A wonderfully written piece on the DSG gearbox.
Thank for that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Gunship)*

How is DSG on Hill Starts, I mean San Fransisco Style Hill starts...


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Gunship)*

Tiptronic and DSG are two different things. 
DSG is the dual clutch system. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/....htm  is a good write up on it.
Currently, production automobiles equipped with DCTs are the Volkswagen Beetle, Golf, Touran, and Jetta as well as the Audi TT and A3; the Skoda Octavia; and the Seat Altea, Toledo and Leon. (pulled from howstuffworks.com). 
Tiptronic just means you go from automatic to manual shifting and there are other manufacturers that use a tiptronic type set up. Those tiptronics probably have a torque converter instead of a DSG set up. 
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/....htm  discusses how a torque converter works
I got the luxury DSG model so I don't have the paddle shifters, but it is still fun to flip the shifter to the right and use the gears.



_Modified by EosEnthusiastNB at 12:53 PM 1-5-2007_


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: living with DSG (justme97)*

DSG is more fun to shift than the Tiptronic in my old Passat. This is mainly because there is no lag but also the Eos is more fun and responsive.
I do have a hard time keeping track if I am gearing down from 6th to 2nd or 3rd. I do not have the hang of counting off 4 or 3 clicks yet and I am too busy watching the curve to look at the display at this time. On a manual I would know by where the shifter ends up in the gate.


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Grinder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grinder* »_DSG is more fun to shift than the Tiptronic in my old Passat. This is mainly because there is no lag but also the Eos is more fun and responsive.

 
Again not to split hairs but probably what you should say is the DSG is more fun to shift than the automatic transmission that I had in my old Passat....


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## Steve_UK (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (EosEnthusiastNB)*

I would just welcome the chance to have a go with my DSG. I know it's built and in transit - can't wait!!!!!


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Grinder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grinder* »_DSG is more fun to shift than the Tiptronic in my old Passat. This is mainly because there is no lag but also the Eos is more fun and responsive.
I do have a hard time keeping track if I am gearing down from 6th to 2nd or 3rd. I do not have the hang of counting off 4 or 3 clicks yet and I am too busy watching the curve to look at the display at this time. On a manual I would know by where the shifter ends up in the gate.

I agree, but I think in time, you will get used to it. try to use the tach to get an idea where you are at... 
I wish they had a steptronic that when you put it in the manual gate, it would behave like a manual stick.. even if it was an electronic connection... call it "manual by wire". 
I think for this reason that even in the year 2107, there will still be manual cars... soley for the pleasure of driving, even if the "need" for them should become obselete. A manual gear box can make a good car great. its like the difference between a beautiful woman and an attractive woman that you have something in common with.....


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: living with DSG (archiea)*

Perhaps if the MFD showed a very large number indicating the selected gear briefly after shifting it would be easier to follow which gear is selected. A manual-like gate would be interesting but might be confusing when the car over-rides your choice.
Thanks also for the Tiptronic correction to Automatic with Tiptronic in the Passat


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## EosEnthusiastNB (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Grinder)*

When using the manual setting on tiptronic I go more from the RPM gauge vs the actual gear number, but I do occaisionally glance at the gear numbers to see where I stand with it.


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: living with DSG (Grinder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grinder* »_Perhaps if the MFD showed a very large number indicating the selected gear briefly after shifting it would be easier to follow which gear is selected. 


BMW has a nice gear indicator in their MFD.
http://jalopnik.com/cars/hoon/...4.php


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## WolfinPR (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (notawagon)*

I have noticed that occasionally my 2.0T with auto DSG will roll backwards if I am stopped on a hill. I know that manual will do this and I wasn't sure if this is something normal with DSG or not. I also live in the SF Bay area and there are hills everywhere. As soon as I get my foot on the gas and push down it will go forward, but some people pull so close when you are at a stop light on the hill it makes me nervous that I am going to roll back into one of them.
Thanks for any input or thoughts.


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## oab97 (Feb 18, 2007)

*Re: living with DSG (WolfinPR)*

Can you use the ole' handbrake trick to keep the DSG car from rolling backwards just like we probably all used to do when we were first learning to drive traditional manuals? I would hope this would still work but I wouldn't be suprised if the electronics all talk to eachother too much now (like a bunch of excited schoolgirls) and the DSG transmission won't engage with the parking brake on. It's worth a shot though.
Regarding the gear postion discussion, it's funny because I've been riding motorcycles with sequential gearboxes since I was 7 years old and never had a gear selection display of any kind. On the street I just select the appropriate gear based on RPM. I honestly don't care what gear number it happens to be as long as it's the appropriate one for the current speed/situation. On the track, it takes a little more mental effort to keep track of what gear you're in and make sure you make the appropriate selection as you downshift for each upcoming turn, but I'm guessing most of you won't be taking your Eos to a racetrack anytime soon.


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## ccl (Nov 28, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (wy)*

Yes - same experience - lag in D, less lag in S, no lag with paddles, when rev at 2500-3000


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## Instynct (Sep 7, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (WolfinPR)*

Yes this happened to me. I was on a hill. took my foot off the break and started to give gas, but instead of going forward I rolled back!
It freaked me out big time! I almost planted my trunk into the car behind me.
Since then this has not happened again. 
I would not be surprised if there was a recall. The problem seems based on the software or sensors that control the DSG. The DSG is great, but does seem to have a few manual transmission traits like this that drivers should pay attention to.


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Instynct)*








no, no, no, no.. its not a recall issue... unless we are talking driver recall!!








however I do agree that the dealers should have outlined this to all DSG equiped buyers. 
have you evr driven a manual car? you have to excuse me, I am SUCH an elitist snob of a manual tranny..or at least was UNTIL I drove the DSG.








You have to treat it like a manual transmission... where on a hill you should use the parking brake to hold the car while you hit the gas.... All manual cars need to do this. The DSG, being a manual automatic, needs it too... You se the DSG is automatic in the sense that the clutch is automatically engaged instead of you doing that.. and also the shifting of gears with the above automatic clutch. So the issue her is that its a clutch based system for engagement. So regardless of being manual or automatic clutch, you need to treat it as a clutch... And when you press on the brake, the car i in neutral usually with the D selection, and I think it downshifts in the S selection. 
*however when you are stopped with the brakes engaged, your trannyis in neutral, effectively, not in drive EVEN THOUGH THE GEAR SHIFT IS IN DRIVE!!!!* 
Now to a manual nut







like me that makes sense. and is welcomed. For auto tranny drivers, they think its a defect.. sure feels like it at first.. but I think its more a defect in VW Dealer/customer service!!! thats forever in "Park" regardless what gear you are in!!


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## Instynct (Sep 7, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (archiea)*


_Quote, originally posted by *archiea* »_







no, no, no, no.. its not a recall issue... unless we are talking driver recall!!








however I do agree that the dealers should have outlined this to all DSG equiped buyers. 
have you evr driven a manual car? you have to excuse me, I am SUCH an elitist snob of a manual tranny..or at least was UNTIL I drove the DSG.










I disagree. 
The problem is completely intermittent. 99 hills the dsg keeps forward traction. Then on some random hill no steeper than any other it suddenly doesn't react resulting in an unexpected roll back that maintains even after the gas has been depressed. I'm sorry but thats a software or sensor problem. 
OH yes, and this is my 6th car and the very first that is not a manual. I'
The problem wouldn't bother me save that its happened only twice in 5 months/9k miles. With that low frequency it catches you off guard, and thats what makes it a scary little glitch.


_Modified by Instynct at 12:32 AM 3-3-2007_


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: living with DSG (Instynct)*

I agree that this 'feature' should not be happening IMHO. My house is atop a steep hill (right turn at the top to go into my garage). If I stop part way up, sometimes there is no 'lurch' and other times I am coasting backwards.
Related to http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3024516 ???? which I have experienced. The 'strange acceleration' happened 1 out of 10 during my 3-5 weeks of driving. Now is less (or I'm ignoring it like I don't 'see' my glasses). Maybe the DSG is now broken in.


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Hill start in DSG*

Unfortunately, I bought my Eos straight off the forecourt (saved a long wait) but one of the things I missed out on was the paddle changer on the steering wheel. Why, I do not know, it has the multifunction steering wheel and the extra cost of the paddles was peanuts, but whoever spec'ed it up, omitted it. I find putting the car in manual mode on twisty hilly country roads means making a conscious decision to be more involved, very much like driving a manual. The paddles would have been much better and I do regret it each time I do it - so if you are thinking about whether they are for you or not - go for it!.
That said, hill starts.
The DSG is a 'manual' in the way it operates and shouldn't be confused with a traditional automatic. My last car was an auto Merc and on hills etc, I could very leisurely allow the auto box to take the strain and help me get away without worrying about slipping backwards (or having to use the foot-brake and hand release).
The Eos will slip backwards if you are not prompt in setting off on an incline or giving it some gas in the same way you would in a manual. the reason why you don't always experience this each and every time you set off is because it has a hill assist feature. When you set off on an incline, the car will hold itself in position for a few seconds (to mimic an old style auto) after that, you are on your own and will slip back if you dawdle. Of course, the answer is just to use the handbrake when stationary on decent inclines, or where you think you might need a few seconds to get started. I am now getting into the habit of 'handbrake on, engage neutral' when waiting at lights. Leaving it in D with the handbrake on and you can feel the car working against the brake and wishing to move off. (I think putting your foot on the brake is the equivalent of dipping the clutch and you can feel the car rest easy). The hill assist also works when you just come to a momentary stop in traffic, otherwise you would be working the handbrake like you would work the gears/clutch/handbrake in a manual. 
It is documented in the handbook.


_Modified by Gadgeteer1066 at 9:41 AM 3-3-2007_


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## Instynct (Sep 7, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_
The DSG is a 'manual' in the way it operates and shouldn't be confused with a traditional automatic....
The Eos will slip backwards if you are not prompt in setting off on an incline or giving it some gas in the same way you would in a manual. the reason why you don't always experience this each and every time you set off is because it has a hill assist feature. When you set off on an incline, the car will hold itself in position for a few seconds (to mimic an old style auto) after that, you are on your own and will slip back if you dawdle. Of course, the answer is just to use the handbrake when stationary on decent inclines, or where you think you might need a few seconds to get started. I am now getting into the habit of 'handbrake on, engage neutral' when waiting at lights. Leaving it in D with the handbrake on and you can feel the car working against the brake and wishing to move off. (I think putting your foot on the brake is the equivalent of dipping the clutch and you can feel the car rest easy). The hill assist also works when you just come to a momentary stop in traffic, otherwise you would be working the handbrake like you would work the gears/clutch/handbrake in a manual. 
It is documented in the handbook.
_Modified by Gadgeteer1066 at 9:41 AM 3-3-2007_

1) The US EOS does not come with hill assist. 
2) The US handbook has the following to say about the DSG on hills. Booklet 3.1 Controls and Equipment, page 108.
"Stopping on a Hill
- When necessary, you should hold the vehicle in position with the foot break to keep it from rolling backward.
- Do not try to keep the vehicle from rolling backward by increasing engine speed with the transmission in a drive gear.
Starting on a hill
- With a gear engaged, release the break and depress the accelerator.
" 
Thats it!
3) The DSG is simply a dual drive shaft manual transmission with computer controlled clutches. The issue that you can release the foot break and give the car a liberal amount gas (3.5k - 4k rpms!)and the transmission will not engage is a sensor problem with the break, the transmission, or a software glitch. The irregularity with which this problem happens further points to that conclusion. 
4) We are not talking steep hills, we are talking metered freeway on ramps of only a gradual slope. Gas is given immediately after the foot break is removed. 
This in no way lowers my love for the car or the DSG. But I am saying I would not be surprised if there is a sensor recall, an addendum to the manual, or a software update placed at some point to minimize this rare yet scary oddity. 
My money is on the break sensor, VW has had problems with these in the past on the Jetta.



_Modified by Instynct at 3:08 PM 3-4-2007_


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Instynct)*


_Quote »_The issue that you can release the foot break and give the car a liberal amount gas (3.5k - 4k rpms!)and the transmission will not engage is a sensor problem with the brake, the transmission, or a software glitch. The irregularity with which this problem happens further points to that conclusion. 

If this is true it sounds an awlful lot like launch control to me..


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_ The hill assist also works when you just come to a momentary stop in traffic, otherwise you would be working the handbrake like you would work the gears/clutch/handbrake in a manual. 
It is documented in the handbook.

_Modified by Gadgeteer1066 at 9:41 AM 3-3-2007_

Since this is not in the U.S. version of the handbook, would you mind telling us what your handbook says?
Many thanks,
Martha


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

I am amazed at what VWoA considers to be unnecessary and gobsmacked if they think hill assist isn't worth bothering with. Begs the question, why bother developing it in the first place








Any way, page 132 in section 3.1:
The hill hold assist function helps the driver move off on an uphill slope.
If the driver releases the footbrake on an incline, the vehicle will be held in position by the hill hold assist function for approximately 2 seconds. The brake will gradually be released as the vehicle pulls away. If the vehicle does not pull away within 2 seconds, the brake will be released and the vehicle will roll back.
When is it activated?
- stationary vehicle is standing on an incline facing uphill of more than 5% + the drivers door is closed + engine is running.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_I am amazed at what VWoA considers to be unnecessary and gobsmacked if they think hill assist isn't worth bothering with. Begs the question, why bother developing it in the first place

Norman:
Please keep an open mind. Volkswagen of America might thing that the hill-hold feature is the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread, but their hands might be tied by legislation in the USA. Consider the following:
*1)* It took 3 years for automakers to get adaptive (cornering) headlights approved for use in the USA.
*2)* VW cannot offer the same level of sophistication in the tire pressure monitoring system in the USA as they can in the rest of the world due to American legislation.
*3)* No car maker can offer a keyswitch to turn off a front passenger airbag in the USA - that is against the law.
*4)* VW can't offer any of the new diesel engines that meet EC4 emission specs in the USA because the diesel fuel sold in the USA doesn't meet the quality standards that these engines require. Diesel fuel sold in the EC has met the required standard since 1999, in Canada, since 2002.
*5)* RDS (dynamic traffic broadcasts), something you have been used to for the last 15 years, just started in North America at the beginning of 2006.
In other words, the decision might be out of VW's hands.
Michael


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*

So we need to SUE WVoA the first time a 'roll back' on a hill causes an accident! (just kidding but it would be nice)


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Norman:
Please keep an open mind. Volkswagen of America might thing that the hill-hold feature is the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread, but their hands might be tied by legislation in the USA. [chopped] In other words, the decision might be out of VW's hands.
Michael

Michael, It is possible. In which case, I still have the same sentiments, but just need to change my previous statement from VWoA simply to US. 
I have to say however, that one of the strong themes I have picked up on in here is a general opinion over the $$$$$ cost of the Eos in the US. In such a price conscious environment, I could also see an argument for VWoA to build 'down to a price' by leaving off some goodies. As you say, each market has its own standard features, optional extras.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*

Hi Norman:
I think if anything, VW of America consistently tends to 'build up', rather than 'build down'. Some examples that come to mind are the Phaeton, which in base 'Plain Jane' format came to NAR with over 85% of available options embodied, and the Touareg, same thing.
What is very noticeable about VW of America is that they are slow to bring some new technology developments to NAR. By example, the start button on Phaetons and Touaregs, Adaptive Cruise Control on the Phaetons, RDS functionality on all cars, and so forth. I know that those three examples were the result of internal VW decisions - either liability concerns in the US marketplace, or in the case of RDS, knowledge that the owners would not read the owner manual and would bombard the dealers with complaints about the 'functionality problems' of the radio.
In a lot of other areas, though (as mentioned before), the carmakers' hands are tied by the US government, which simply will not accept a European standard as being 'good enough' for America. If the standard wasn't invented in the USA, then it's not good enough, plain and simple.
Canada kind of straddles the fence - we will accept either standard (EC or USA) in many areas, lighting being a good example, but the major carmakers will not cater to the small Canadian market on a stand-alone basis, and generally insist on giving us cars that meet the US specs.
Michael


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
From what I've recently read, there has been a "hill hold button" in the Passat since 2006. Why would hill assist in the Eos be a problem for the U.S. version? 
Is it possible to find out if a U.S. car could be retrofitted with hill assist? The absence of this feature leaves the DSG operation abnormal for automatic transmissions, in my opinion. I wish I had been told about it or experienced it in my test drive, because I'm one of "those" who only can drive an automatic. I'm really struggling with this, living in "The Mountain State". 
By the way, thank you for all the information you have also provided in other topics in this forum. 
Martha


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

What's strange is that in the Passat it appears to be a button that a driver has to deliberately engage, while in the UK spec EOS it appears to be a automatic feature of the car...


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## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*

Some of you I think are over looking the fact that the car will also roll forward with the DSG. A hill holder option might be useful, but IMHO if you don't know how to use your two feet and the emergency brake to keep the car from moving when you don't want it to you really are "driving challenged".


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (vweosdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_What's strange is that in the Passat it appears to be a button that a driver has to deliberately engage, while in the UK spec EOS it appears to be a automatic feature of the car...

Those two cars have very different transmissions and braking systems. I have driven a Passat that had an automatic transmission (conventional automatic, not DSG) and the 'automatic parking brake' feature. It is an automatic parking brake, not a hill-hold, although it will function on hills.
The main claim to fame of that feature is that once you come to a stop, you can take your foot off the brake and the brake will remain applied until you next step on the gas. My wife loved it, thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
NB that the Passat has electric brakes - I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that the Eos does NOT have electric brakes, because the Eos does not have controller 53 present, which is the parking brake controller. The Passat does.
Michael


----------



## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (vweosdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vweosdriver* »_Some of you I think are over looking the fact that the car will also roll forward with the DSG. A hill holder option might be useful, but IMHO if you don't know how to use your two feet and the emergency brake to keep the car from moving when you don't want it to you really are "driving challenged".









I believe you've missed my point, but I won't respond to your slur by calling you a name. I am here seeking a solution. This rollback/rollforward issue is not normal for automatic transmissions and should be disclosed. I don't want to deal with the parking brake every time I stop on a hill. That's why I buy cars with an automatic transmission.


----------



## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

Agreed! My '94 chevy doesn't even roll back (even with a plow on the front!). 
Would a higher idle work?


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## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

Sorry I offended you, my comment was for drivers in general.


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

I checked the owner's manual and it says when starting on a hill you should release the foot brake and depress the the accelerator. Now I know this is not what you want to hear. However let me offer a work around. If you have tried this please ignore this. If not here goes. When you are sitting facing up hill with your foot on the brake, try slowly easing off of the brake until you feel the car start to pull forward and then release the brake fully and step on the gas pedal. This seems to work for me on mild grades. 
Andy


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (cb391)*

Thanks, Andy-
I have tried it, but I'm even more uncoordinated when my heart is pounding! It's the "two-footed" aspect of manual transmissions that I can't master. I can manage the emergency brake if I have to, but right now I'm driving outside my normal routes to avoid traffic stopped in underpasses, on bridges and on hills with traffic lights. 
I meet with a VW rep tomorrow afternoon and plan to inquire about the UK hill assist that's not on the US model. Hopefully it's a computer program modification that would allow that to be added to mine. If not, it appears i'm out of ideas and out of luck.
Gadgeteer1066-could you scan the page from the U.K. manual and attach it to a post so I'd have that to take with me? Thanks anyway for the information if you can't.








Martha


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (gdevitry)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gdevitry* »_Agreed! My '94 chevy doesn't even roll back (even with a plow on the front!). 
Would a higher idle work?

I'll ask about adjusting the idle, too. Thanks so much!
Martha


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## Canadian Lurker (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mconfer* »_
....This rollback/roll forward issue is not normal for automatic transmissions and should be disclosed. I don't want to deal with the parking brake every time I stop on a hill. That's why I buy cars with an automatic transmission. 

Martha,
To call a DSG transmission an automatic is a bit of a mis-nomer of sorts. Indeed, on a traditional automatic no roll-back or certainly only a minute amount should be expected. Obviously, on a manual it goes without saying that roll-back is part of the nature of the transmission. The DSG however, while having a lot in common with an automatic in that you do not have to actually shift the gears for yourself, is actually much closer to being a manual transmission. Therefore, some degree of roll-back should probably be considered as expected behaviour rather than a surprise.
Hopefully though, more comes to light on the possibility of either activating or retro-fitting the ROW hill-holder feature. Other than that, given the e-brake approach requires some hand-foot coordination which can be a challenge, you may want to try to see if you can brake with your left foot and gas with your right. As you ease off with your left, press down with the right and this should minimize the roll-back. It would require some getting used to, but some folks do use this method while some will be quick to point out possible wear/tear issues. Unfortunately, you're in a bit of a no-win situation.
JJ


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## bbwinterpeg (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*

This is one of the reasons I applauded Mercedes-Benz for bringing the smart to Canada. For once, Canada wasn't an afterthought tacked on to US Operations, so we got a car the US didn't, and sales far surpassed expectations, showing that small European cars can be sold in N.A.
AND my smart has hill assist. which holds the brake for 0.7 seconds after your foot releases the brake pedal. I have to say it's one of those European features I have really grown to appreciate. 
I wish I could say the same about the sequential manual gearbox in the smart...


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## WolfinPR (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Canadian Lurker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Canadian Lurker* »_
you may want to try to see if you can brake with your left foot and gas with your right. As you ease off with your left, press down with the right and this should minimize the roll-back. It would require some getting used to, but some folks do use this method while some will be quick to point out possible wear/tear issues. Unfortunately, you're in a bit of a no-win situation.
JJ

I had this same thought and it did not work. Essentially the car is in neutral when you have your foot on the brake, when I tried to coordinate between the two pedals the car only revved and started to slide back. I have been told that the only brake to coordinate the gas pedal with is the emergency brake.


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (WolfinPR)*

It seems a strange omission (unless, as Michael says, it is not legal in US). 
In a manual car, when you stop, you apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral. then when you want to set off, you bring the clutch up to the biting point and then release the hand brake. If you are in slow, stop-start traffic, you would drive with the foot brake, depressing the clutch when you need to to come to a halt and holding the car stationary with the foot brake. Normally, then you would just lift off the clutch until it starts to bite and then transfer your foot from the brake to the accelerator.
In an auto, you just put your foot on the foot brake to stop, release it and use the accelerator to go.
In an auto, you can often feel engine creep, as you reduce pressure on the foot brake, the car is eager to move forward. I notice in my Eos that when I come to a stop and depress the brake pedal, the clutch disengages. Now, if I leave it in D and apply the handbrake, when I release my foot off the foot brake, I can noticeably see the front of the car lift a little, as though it wants to set off but the handbrake is preventing it. This is the equivalent feel of an auto and the foot brake.
Therefore, if I did not have the hill assist, I would have imagined that if I am stationary with my foot on the foot brake, as I released it and the clutch engages, this 'desire' to move off I have just described should be enough to get the car moving forward without slipping back. 
If this wasn't the case, then the hill start function is not a luxury, but a necessity - unless the cars where this is happening are in need of adjustment to bring them in line with other people's cars where it is not an issue.
I used to have a Hyundai Coupe auto that had very little engine creep. When I was manoeuvring into my car parking spot in any other car (it was up a very very slight incline of 1 - 2 degrees only), all I did was control the motion on the foot brake; less application, a bit more forward motion etc. The Hyundai didn't do that and you had to use a combination of the accelerator and the handbrake. Not the best and I always worried I would gas it too much and bump the car next to me. I don't know if it is something you would get used to because I dumped the car quite quickly.


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (WolfsburgerMitFries)*

I have a manual. I test drove the DSG and I must say the whole concept seemed a bit silly. And I was really hoping I would like it because if so, that meant a shorter wait because those are much easier to find in L.A. But when I shifted it I got no "response" at all from the car. It was perfectly smooth. Some would think this made it a smashing success, but it seemed utterly boring to me. It really lacked the life of a manual. Those were my impressions. Maybe after driving it for a month I could figure out a way to make it feel like it was responding but it just seemed like it would be so forced.


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (jnhashmi)*

Great post and a great reason to retain a manual. Obviously many people (like myself) want no response and think it's really great what technology can do to "hide" the inner workings of a car. But that isn't what everyone is looking for in their car, especially a sporty car used as often for fun trips as a steady day-to-day car for sitting on the 405.
I appreciate the insight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
P.S. Did you try DSG in Sport mode? With the increased revs it's a little hard not to notice when accelerating. Still wouldn't notice the gear shifts, especially if you're like me just flicking the paddles on the wheel. Just curious if it's the car and the transmission, or simply the action of engaging the clutch and moving the stick that works for you.


_Modified by neweosowner at 2:44 PM 3-9-2007_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (bbwinterpeg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bbwinterpeg* »_This is one of the reasons I applauded Mercedes-Benz for bringing the smart to Canada. For once, Canada wasn't an afterthought tacked on to US Operations, so we got a car the US didn't, and sales far surpassed expectations, showing that small European cars can be sold in N.A. 

VW is no slouch when it come to recognizing the unique differences of the Canadian marketplace. The 'City Golf' and 'City Jetta' (MK IV Golfs and Jettas with simple option packages) are only offered in Canada, and they have sold right out. For the benefit of our American friends, this is a little experiment that VW has run in Canada for the last 8 months or so, to see how well a USD $13,000 (yep, you read that right) new VW would sell. The car is nothing more than a MK IV that is being sold alongside the more expensive (and newer design) Golf V (called a GTI) and Jetta V (called a Jetta). They have a little 'City' nameplate on the back of them. The test has been a great success.
Hatchbacks (Golf, etc.) sell very well in Canada, whereas Americans tend to prefer sedans. The Golf vs. Jetta percentages have historically always been almost exactly reversed between Canada and the USA. On top of that, Québec is a unique marketplace. A very small car such as a Polo or Fox would probably sell very well in Québec.
Michael


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (WolfinPR)*


_Quote »_
_ you may want to try to see if you can brake with your left foot and gas with your right. As you ease off with your left, press down with the right and this should minimize the roll-back. It would require some getting used to, but some folks do use this method while some will be quick to point out possible wear/tear issues. Unfortunately, you're in a bit of a no-win situation.
JJ_ 


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfinPR* »_
I had this same thought and it did not work. Essentially the car is in neutral when you have your foot on the brake, when I tried to coordinate between the two pedals the car only revved and started to slide back. I have been told that the only brake to coordinate the gas pedal with is the emergency brake.

If we leave hill start to one side, the issue is whether the way in which the DSG works on inclines is at fault, or whether a number of cars fitted with DSG are at fault. It seems to me that the emergency brake (we call it the handbrake in the UK) is not the only brake to coordinate with, as the footbrake pedal causes the clutch to engage/disengage and this, in one pedal, replicates what you would do with a pair of manual clutch/brake pedals. By the way, in the UK, the handbrake is not an 'emergency brake' and standard driving instruction technique is to hold the manual box car stationary on an incline with the handbrake on until the clutch is at the biting point and then slowly release it as you move off. I would presume that technique is pretty global, yes? 
To identify the issue, I have done the following:
(1) come to a stop and left car in D (2) pressed down and held footbrake (3) applied handbrake whilst keeping my foot on the footbrake (4) released footbrake.
The result was that as I lifted my foot off the footbrake, the car strained against the handbrake and wanted to move forward.
I did the same on an incline and the same happened.
I then did the same with the drivers door ajar (this stops the hill start from operating)
The car did the same.
I then tried it without the handbrake, but on an incline with the door ajar:
(1) came to stop with foot on footbrake leaving car in D (2) opened drivers door slightly (3) slowly lifted foot off foot brake and felt clutch engage (4) moved foot from footbrake to accelerator and moved off.
The car did not roll back, I always felt in control and there was no real world difference between this and how my old Merc's auto box behaved.
The incline was not huge, but was sufficient to be noticeable. I would say that my car did not suffer from any DSG incline start problem.
If anyone out there with a VWoA spec car without hill start would like to try it and see if they get the same results along with anyone who is having difficulty with this issue, perhaps we may be able to identify if it is a problem across the board, or a problem with a few cars.


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

Hillstop button? CD'mon, be a man: use the handbrake! ;P
seriously, though, I'm too uncordinated to do the brake gas thing, so I use the hand brake, even in my traditional auto car!! it saves the tranny from undo stress... Ipm currently in sanfrancisco, so don;t talk to me about hills!! ;D


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_
By the way, in the UK, the handbrake is not an 'emergency brake' and standard driving instruction technique is to hold the manual box car stationary on an incline with the handbrake on until the clutch is at the biting point and then slowly release it as you move off. I would presume that technique is pretty global, yes?


Actually you'd be suprised. When I moved to the San Franscisco about 17 years ago the examiner was going to fail me for (a) Setting the hand brake at a 4 way stop and (b) excesive head movement with the Mirror Signal Mirror Manouver that's drummed into us before taking the UK Test. I was driving a manual Corrado G60 an we had a big discussion about being rear ended at a stop....


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (archiea)*

Archie.. Come on, it's not that bad, I lived in SF for 6 years with my MT Corrado.. Unfortunately both had to go when my son was born, as I tell people "You only push a stroller up California Street once", and there was no way to fit a child seat in the back of the 'rrado....


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (neweosowner)*

I didn't try it in Sport mode. Sounds like that would have helped. 
To answer your question, what I really like about a manual is the "tension and release." I like being in gear, then pushing in the clutch and feeling the release, then putting it in gear and - this is the part I really like - feeling it grab the road and give that little g-force type jolt. So I guess it's not really the movement of the stick I like, because that is basically what you get with the DSG. So to make a movement with my arms like I'm shifting but for there to be no "payoff" really lead me to that "what's the point?" feeling.


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*

Thanks for trying to see what would happen with hill assist "off". Does it really disengage with the door open??
I met with the regional VW rep about my car and he acknowledged that the rollback on the US spec model is "operating as designed". I had asked that they have an explanation for me as to why my car couldn't be retro-fitted with hill assist since it was available on the U.K. model. His explanation was it would be MUCH more than a softwware tweak to add hill assist and was not possible. 
He said decisions had to be made what features to trim from the European model to make it fit a certain "price point" in the U.S. market and hill assist was one of the items they decided to leave off. Amazing. Someone in a prior post thought this might be the case and it is!! 
My point was that this omission makes it not operate as a "normal" automatic transmission and that it was a misrepresentation to market it as one. It should be disclosed. His position was that I just didn't like one of the features of the DSG transmission. 
Hopefully in some later model they will add hill assist to the U.S. Eos. If I still have my 2007 at that time I will trade it. Perhaps all who would like to see this added (those who thought they were getting a "normal" automatic transmission and don't appreciate the rollback "feature") would let their dealer know how they feel it might happen. There have been two complaints to my dealership since mine on Feb 22.
I suggested the VW rep read the posts on this thread since he said he was not aware of any complaints before mine.
Thanks to all!
Martha


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

Martha,
According to the UK handbook, the hill start assist is only activated when: 
Car is stationary, facing uphill, on an incline of more than 5%
Drivers door closed
Engine running.
I think hill start assist is there to make the car mimic an ordinary automatic. Because it is there, choosing DSG in the UK is the same as choosing the automatic over the manual. The vast majority of people buy the DSG because it is the automatic version, i.e. they don't have to change gears and most of them won't - ever. (This is reinforced by some insurance companies referring to the DSG as 'automatic' when you get online insurance quotes). My wife's Golf is DSG and her reasoning for shifting the gear stick to the left is to select a lower gear when she is going down a steep hill, so she doesn't have to keep her foot on the brake all the time (After I showed her what it could do). She now uses it exactly as she used the previous (true) automatic box.
If VW choose to sell a car with DSG, but without hill assist, then I think they have a duty to explain what the box is about and what it's characteristics are... 'You are not buying an automatic in the normal sense, let me explain...' type thing.
I would encourage people to have a go to see whether their car rolls back, or not. I think it would be useful to Martha and others who are experiencing this to see whether their car is typical, or whether they need it adjusting / fixing.


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (jnhashmi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jnhashmi* »_I didn't try it in Sport mode. Sounds like that would have helped. 
To answer your question, what I really like about a manual is the "tension and release." I like being in gear, then pushing in the clutch and feeling the release, then putting it in gear and - this is the part I really like - feeling it grab the road and give that little g-force type jolt. So I guess it's not really the movement of the stick I like, because that is basically what you get with the DSG. So to make a movement with my arms like I'm shifting but for there to be no "payoff" really lead me to that "what's the point?" feeling.

I like the DSG because you set off and the car gives you constant acceleration all the way up, as smooth as anything. A bit like the Hulk ride in Orlando








When I am in the mood, I see the advantage of the DSG as allowing me to keep the car as responsive as possible (i.e. in the right gear) without having to constantly use the brake. I'm talking on narrow, twisty and hilly roads where you would otherwise be using the brake a lot more; anticipating a bend, dropping a gear, powering through, accelerating away, changing up. Have to say, selecting S is almost as good, but a little less involving.


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_Martha,
...If VW choose to sell a car with DSG, but without hill assist, then I think they have a duty to explain what the box is about and what it's characteristics are... 'You are not buying an automatic in the normal sense, let me explain...' type thing.
I would encourage people to have a go to see whether their car rolls back, or not. I think it would be useful to Martha and others who are experiencing this to see whether their car is typical, or whether they need it adjusting / fixing.
 
Norman,
Thanks for your support. I feel exactly the same way. Luckily, I am starting to improve with my hill starts. Who knows, maybe someone will even show me how to use the paddle shifters and I can stay off the brakes on our twisty, winding hills!
I love my Eos in every way except for the rollback. Now that I'm resigned to it, I'll just move on to the fun stuff - accessories/mods! Ordered the custom suitcases from Rich and I'm saving up for the bike rack/hitch combo. Soon it will be time to cruise to various rail trail/bike path locations! 
Happy Spring to all! 
Martha


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

Martha 
Are you aware you'll need a new rear bumper cover for the Eurospec Hitch / Bikerack.. I was really disappointed when I confirmed this... In the mean time U-Haul does now have a Hitch for the EOS. Mine should be fitted in the next week or two, so I'll post pictures. Doubt it willl be quite as discrete as the Euro spec unit...
-Mark


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

To fit the suitcases in the trunk area, you'll need to remove the NAR tire change kit. Those suitcases where 'meant' for ROW (right?)

_Quote, originally posted by *mconfer* »_
I'll just move on to the fun stuff - accessories/mods! Ordered the custom suitcases from Rich 


If you don't mind a 'messy' ending, you can cut the styrofoam down to fit in the ski pass through.








The jack/wrench can be wrapped in cloth. 








*Bonus: the cloth can be used if you get messy hands!










_Modified by gdevitry at 6:06 PM 3-12-2007_


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## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Are you aware you'll need a new rear bumper cover for the Eurospec Hitch / Bikerack..

The VW bike rack also appears to snug right up to the bumper and prevent the top from opening. It might be better to find one of the many third party swing down/swing away racks so the top could be operated without removing the rack.
However, I wonder if a bike on a rack has a strong enough profile to trigger the parking sensors to prevent the top from operating if you forget to swing the rack away. I understand the VW hitch has switches to disable the top when anything is mounted.


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

Great summy of the DSG... bravo...

_Quote, originally posted by *mconfer* »_ 
Norman,
Thanks for your support. I feel exactly the same way. Luckily, I am starting to improve with my hill starts. Who knows, maybe someone will even show me how to use the paddle shifters and I can stay off the brakes on our twisty, winding hills!
I love my Eos in every way except for the rollback. Now that I'm resigned to it, I'll just move on to the fun stuff - accessories/mods! Ordered the custom suitcases from Rich and I'm saving up for the bike rack/hitch combo. Soon it will be time to cruise to various rail trail/bike path locations! 
Happy Spring to all! 
Martha


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (flubber)*

i was intending seeing if I could fit something to the Rack to make sure that the PDC would detected it... 
- Michael, partially my fault, we've gone way of subject here. Is it possibe to move these posts to one of the Bike Rack posts..


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mark_d_drake)*

Hi Mark:
It's not technically possible to move single posts, only to merge entire threads together. As for PDC and bike racks, if you buy the bike rack that has the lights on it (brake lights, turn signals, etc.), when you plug it in, the trailer controller detects the presence of the "trailer" (bike rack in this case) and turns off the PDC.
If your bike rack does not have an electrical connection (or, if you don't want to go to the expense and trouble of retrofitting a trailer controller), you can program an offset into the PDC system to allow for the presence of the bike rack.
BTW - continuing on the off-topic bike rack - it might be a good idea to make sure that the bike rack sticks out far enough behind the car that you can open the roof without the trunk lid banging into the bike rack (or the bikes).
Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*

Michael
I have a Yakima bike rack that we use with the MDX. The rack mounts to the tow hitch on the MDX and swings out 180 degrees to allow the tailgate of the MDX to open. while the rack is mounted. I'm just wondering whether the PDC sensors will detect it when it's closed and bolted in the locked position and also whether or not there will be enough clearence at the bottom where the rack connects to the towbar, to allow the tailgate to swing open properly. I'll need to take some very careful measurements....
-Mark



_Modified by mark_d_drake at 9:02 PM 3-12-2007_


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_When I am in the mood, I see the advantage of the DSG as allowing me to keep the car as responsive as possible (i.e. in the right gear) without having to constantly use the brake. I'm talking on narrow, twisty and hilly roads where you would otherwise be using the brake a lot more; anticipating a bend, dropping a gear, powering through, accelerating away, changing up. Have to say, selecting S is almost as good, but a little less involving.

True. I can see that. Although I figured I used the brake in the above situation becuase I didn't really know how to drive a stick properly - you know - being able to engine brake by downshifting without touching the brake. But yes, the DSG would be good in that situation.


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (jnhashmi)*

I just had an afternoon on deserted twisty, undulating roads across the Yorkshire Dales. 100 miles and hardly saw another car for half of that. You can really get into a rhythm, working the gearbox as you approach and then depart the bends and other good bits.
I was a bit careful, some of the roads are straight but have so many dips in them, it would be easy to take off, but I kept thinking about the rear head rests exploding!


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Martha 
Are you aware you'll need a new rear bumper cover for the Eurospec Hitch / Bikerack.. I was really disappointed when I confirmed this... In the mean time U-Haul does now have a Hitch for the EOS. Mine should be fitted in the next week or two, so I'll post pictures. Doubt it willl be quite as discrete as the Euro spec unit...
-Mark

Hi Mark,
That's great news about U-haul because I already have a bike rack that I'd love to be able to use. I'll look forward to seeing the pics...I 'll watch for you post them in the bike rack thread!!
Martha


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (gdevitry)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gdevitry* »_To fit the suitcases in the trunk area, you'll need to remove the NAR tire change kit. Those suitcases where 'meant' for ROW (right?)
If you don't mind a 'messy' ending, you can cut the styrofoam down to fit in the ski pass through.

*Bonus: the cloth can be used if you get messy hands!









_Modifid by gdevitry at 6:06 PM 3-12-2007_

Thanks for the pics! I don't ski so that's the perfect place for the jack/toolbox. 
I don't know the right thread for this topic, so apologies to Michael! I'll not post again here other than in re DSG, but I wanted to thank those who were kind enough to share some ideas.
Martha


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_...
If VW choose to sell a car with DSG, but without hill assist, then I think they have a duty to explain what the box is about and what it's characteristics are... 'You are not buying an automatic in the normal sense, let me explain...' type thing.
I would encourage people to have a go to see whether their car rolls back, or not. I think it would be useful to Martha and others who are experiencing this to see whether their car is typical, or whether they need it adjusting / fixing.

Hi Norman,
Just an update on my DSG issue. Unexpectedly, my dealership bought my Eos back. I don't think I'm that persuasive, so they must have thought there was a problem other than an unhappy customer who thought she should have been told about the DSG operation without hill hold.
I have since driven another Eos and the rollback was noticeably less in that one and very manageable, even by me! I now also believe mine had a problem and now it's VW's problem. Glad I won't be the one in and out of the shop, but I wish I had gotten a "normal" one in the first place. I loved my Eos and have custom suitcases already on order! 
I'm now without a vehicle and a little gun shy about buying another Eos, although it's still the only car that has all the features I want. I'm considering leasing a car and buying a later model Eos in a few years, especially if the hill assist is added and all the other issues noted on the forum are resolved. I'd consider leasing another Eos...one that doesn't have as much rollback...but that little voice is saying, "lease a BMW that doesn't roll back and doesn't leak. You can wait another three years for an Eos." 
Any thoughts? I have to decide soon because I'm "on foot" right now! Luckily I live on the bus line...
Keep up the good information sharing and I'll keep monitoring the forum regardless of the car decision I make. Thanks to all.
Martha


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mconfer* »_
Hi Norman,
Just an update on my DSG issue. Unexpectedly, my dealership bought my Eos back. I don't think I'm that persuasive, so they must have thought there was a problem other than an unhappy customer who thought she should have been told about the DSG operation without hill hold.
I have since driven another Eos and the rollback was noticeably less in that one and very manageable, even by me! I now also believe mine had a problem and now it's VW's problem. Glad I won't be the one in and out of the shop, but I wish I had gotten a "normal" one in the first place. I loved my Eos and have custom suitcases already on order! 
I'm now without a vehicle and a little gun shy about buying another Eos, although it's still the only car that has all the features I want. I'm considering leasing a car and buying a later model Eos in a few years, especially if the hill assist is added and all the other issues noted on the forum are resolved. I'd consider leasing another Eos...one that doesn't have as much rollback...but that little voice is saying, "lease a BMW that doesn't roll back and doesn't leak. You can wait another three years for an Eos." 
Any thoughts? I have to decide soon because I'm "on foot" right now! Luckily I live on the bus line...
Keep up the good information sharing and I'll keep monitoring the forum regardless of the car decision I make. Thanks to all.
Martha

Sorry to hear it got to the stage where you had to give the car up. Did the dealer give you a good deal when he bought it back? I have noticed in the UK car price indexes that second hand Eos have a value higher than new (not taking account of all the on the road extras obviously, but a good sign there is demand).
What about a manual model? At least that way you get a clutch - That said, I would not go back to a manual, too tiring.
Not sure what is available in your market and I guess you want a car sooner, rather than later. That probably rules out all the 'new' models on the market because of wait periods to get hold of one, plus they can all suffer from early life issues.
Probably worthy of starting a new thread - What car would you buy if the Eos was not an option. Hope you don't mind, I just have done http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3143020 


_Modified by Gadgeteer1066 at 4:09 PM 3-23-2007_


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*

My dealer gave me everything back except for a $50 cancellation fee on the extended warranty I had purchased. So essentially, I got all my money back. 
I'll take a look at the suggestions on the new thread! Thanks!
Martha


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*

...would it be so hard to use the emergency brake to brace the car? I have a regular automatic car here on the hills of san francisco, and I use the emergency brake to prevent roll back too, of just to releave the tranny of stress. Why do you have to return an entire car for operating the way its supposed to: DSG uses an automatic clutch that takes a moment to engage when your release the foot brake. Having the emergency brake as a brace is what every manual car driver does... The DSG shares a similar philosophy as manuals do on hills. Case closed.


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## mconfer (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (archiea)*


_Quote, originally posted by *archiea* »_...would it be so hard to use the emergency brake to brace the car? I have a regular automatic car here on the hills of san francisco, and I use the emergency brake to prevent roll back too, of just to releave the tranny of stress. Why do you have to return an entire car for operating the way its supposed to: DSG uses an automatic clutch that takes a moment to engage when your release the foot brake. Having the emergency brake as a brace is what every manual car driver does... The DSG shares a similar philosophy as manuals do on hills. Case closed.









If I'd wanted a manual transmission, or a version thereof, then I wouldn't have bought something called an "automatic". They should have told me it wasn't an automatic...then I wouldn't have bought it...and I wouldn't have to have given a whole car back. Now, case closed.


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (mconfer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mconfer* »_If I'd wanted a manual transmission, or a version thereof, then I wouldn't have bought something called an "automatic". They should have told me it wasn't an automatic...then I wouldn't have bought it...and I wouldn't have to have given a whole car back. Now, case closed.









Agreed that VW should ahve made it clear to you how to operate it. I too found out the hard way, but having driven manual cars for centuries, I quickly adapted. But in the grand scheme of things, how dificult is it to use the hand brake to brace the car on a hill? I mean, I think we're getting too depenedent on computers, that having to rely on a computer to know that we are on a hill vs just gaining the driver's habit of using the handbrake, i.e. being in control dosn't sound like people want to even drive anymore. 
Personlly, i don't care for automatics BECAUSE i'm not in control: the persistant engagement in drive, the computer attempting to shift when you stomp on the pedal.. I talways seems off. . its like youhave to learn your auto tranny instead of it learning you, despite the computing power in cars today. I thought that the DSG was a manyl car driver's automatic..







perhaps moreso than an automatic for everyday people. I can feel the clutch engage, I can feel the car go into nuetral when I brake, instead of feeling the constant nudging that one feels with an automatic as it comes to a stop.








BTW, you would have still bough the Eos.. You know it!!!








I agree that without knowing how the DSG works, the rollback does make it seem like its broken....



_Modified by archiea at 1:14 PM 3-23-2007_


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (archiea)*

Arthur,
In a manual you have that extra control, that extra finesse, through the use of a clutch. Take that away and you need to change how you drive, because you no longer have full control in the same way. VW recognise this with the DSG and have built a hill start assist function to compensate. That is just the same as you feeling the car go into neutral when you brake, or the spare clutch anticipating your next gear because you are slowing down and turning the wheel. They are all computer functions, all of them and it is the synergy of the parts taken together that make the whole a better experience. Take one part away and you miss out. 
I would imagine stop-start traffic in a hilly area would be a total pain, in part because you know if you had a normal auto, you would control the car simply with your foot brake. Even more irritating, I would imagine, is having to do so in a car that was designed to have a function that took care of this for you and which, for reasons of cost (according to an earlier posters report from his dealer) has not only been taken out, but isn't even offered as an option.
I don't think we can limit discussion of using the gearbox simply in the context of when we want to enjoy the car; we are not always out on the open road and enjoying driving for the sake of it, a lot of the time we have to endure the pain of commuter driving, returning home after a hard day at work, and that's why people buy automatics and the DSG is still marketed as an automatic, but one of its key features has been left off.
If VWoA is trying so hard to market the Eos in a lifestyle way, perhaps they might respond to negative publicity. If the lifestyle is one of 'making do'; 'driving a half finished car' or 'driving a pain in traffic because of VWoA' its much harder to sell that to lifestyle gurus and maybe they might either put the hill assist back in, or at least offer it as an option.








*Here's a question: seeing things all cost and the Eos is a very price conscious vehicle in the US, what 'item' would everyone be willing to give up in order to have hill start and to keep the price the same? *


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (Gadgeteer1066)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gadgeteer1066* »_... 'item' would everyone be willing to give up in order to have hill start and to keep the price the same? 

Just a 'shot in the dark' here - I wonder if the hill assist (anti-roll-back) feature is something that actually requires significant additional parts or systems to be installed on the vehicle, or something that can be enabled / disabled via coding?
By example, retrofitting paddle shifters (an option that was never offered in North America) to a Phaeton or a Touareg is a very simple task - you just buy the paddles for about $150 or so, plug them in to the existing electrical connector, and make a small change to the software coding of the transmission. Voila, they work just like an OEM fitment.
I don't know anything at all about the design or concepts behind the hill-hold function. Perhaps it requires an electro-mechanical brake component to be present, and if that is the case, then a retrofit would be beyond the capability of an enthusiast (due to safety issues). Then again, maybe inside the DSG transmission there is already a part that 'grabs' the driveshaft to prevent the car from rolling, and all we need to do is change the behaviour of that 'grabbing' part to make it grab more frequently, or grab for longer periods of time, etc.
Just thinking out loud - everything I have written is uneducated speculation.
Michael


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: Hill start/hill hold*

Found a couple of links talking about this subject that you might want to look at. This system appears to have different types of application.
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/tech...6.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5820515.html
You may also get some info on the Toureg site. VW appears to use hillhold in the transmission

Andy


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## capulet (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: living with DSG (Grinder)*

When using the DSG in manual mode, I have noticed that changing down can be a little "jerky" (nothing drastic, but not as smooth as in auto mode) if I treat the box as an automatic and just click the paddle switch without altering the pressure on the accellerator pedal.
If I treat the box as a real manual - easing slightly off the throttle, clicking the paddle switch then re-applying the throttle - it is much smoother. 
Does anyone find they drive the DSG in manual mode as a manual to get completely smooth changes or do you just click the paddle and all is smooth anyway ?
Also, I do notice lag on changing up at times. If I am noticeably accellerating, there is no noticeable lag. Just accellerating slowly, I notice there is around a 1 second delay between clicking + and the rev counter dropping the revs. It's smooth and does what it should, but there just seems to be that delay. Only ask because others seem to suggest there is no lag at all. All is well in both D and S modes.
All experiences welcome.
Andy


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: living with DSG (capulet)*

*Another important announcement from me*







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
In trying to constantly be aware of what the future holds, I've learned some VW relevant stuff which has the potential to creep into the Eos.
Apparently VW is putting the rush on the Mark 6 Golf to reduce costs, but there is also new technology to make everybody aware of...namely improved DSG action.
The new DSG is supposed to have 7 speeds, and the twin clutch assembly is no longer going to be immersed in fluid. That's a potential maintenence cost reduction. The new DSG is said to be "particularly good for fuel economy". This information is about 3 days old.
http://www.eurocarblog.com/pos...om-vw


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: living with DSG (WolfsburgerMitFries)*

Very interesting.............
Thanks Wolf
Kevin


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Hill start in DSG (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Just a 'shot in the dark' here - I wonder if the hill assist (anti-roll-back) feature is something that actually requires significant additional parts or systems to be installed on the vehicle, or something that can be enabled / disabled via coding?
Michael

Every EOS has hill assist feature... its called the emergency brake. Here in San francisco, there are hills that will make any auto tranny roll back. I give cars ahead of me at least a half a car length distance because idiots think slamming on the gas and peeling out of a hill is how you drive. meanwhile I calmly disengage the emergency brake and apply the gas, and my car doesn't even roill back an inch on a 45 deg hill. Also, I'd rather have the stress put on the emergency brake rather than the tranny as far as I'm concerned.


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