# Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers...



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

03H 115 403 J
Listed as an oil filter housing for Q7 and Toureg 3.6L and 3.2L. Seen at worldimpex.com
Applications include:
Year	Make	Model
2004	Volkswagen	Touareg 3.2L Base V6 BAA
2005	Volkswagen	Touareg 3.2L Base V6 BAA
2006	Volkswagen	Touareg 3.2L Base V6 BAA
2005	Volkswagen	Touareg 3.6L Base V6 BMX
2006	Volkswagen	Touareg 3.6L Base V6 BMX


In speaking with my local VW parts guy he said he looked at the pictures of the new Q7 part (year 2012) and the 06-08 3.6L passat and saw that they are "completely different". 

Now, I haven't looked at either because I can't see a picture anywhere on the internet. But I NEED to find a way to make this housing work. 

The part that user JBallou says has been updated includes a new check valve that combats the dry start up worries. He speaks of it on this post in the 3.6L failure thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ine-failed&p=70965422&viewfull=1#post70965422

Trust me, dry start up noise that you hear is that of your bearings making noise. How do I know? Well, the same noise I heard upon start up was the noise I heard when I spun my bearing. This can't be good for the motor and I'm sure it's only going to make my motor spin it's new bearings I just put in (spun 2 of them....cylinder 4 and 6).


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## JBallou (Jan 6, 2009)

It sounds like a different housing than the q7, but it could have a check valve. That is what really matters a check valve. Do yourself a win and order the part, save the reciept. Then give it a good hands on and see if it has a check valve. Thats what you need to do. If no way to keep the oil up in the upper parts of the motor with some fancy valve or wierd passage, send it back. Get your money back.


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## JBallou (Jan 6, 2009)

You dont need to modify anything to put the one from the q7 in, your post speaks of a updated part # for the passsat.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

JBallou said:


> You dont need to modify anything to put the one from the q7 in, your post speaks of a updated part # for the passsat.


How do you know this for sure? I only found these parts by searching through the Audi tsb. I didn't get this part # from the dealer in regards to my passat. Can you clarify?
Thanks


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## JBallou (Jan 6, 2009)

What I mean to say is the Q7 part will fit the Q7, most likely not the passat. You need the passat part. The dealers were no help in providing part numbers. Just able to confirm the numbers. I ordered it online. The less idiot parts guys involved the better.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Parts guys are telling me no new passat part exists.


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## Shtbox (Nov 27, 2010)

any update on this? does the q7 actually have a check valve, and does it fit? i am SO TIRED of hearing my bearings going to **** every time i cold start!


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*



Shtbox said:


> any update on this? does the q7 actually have a check valve, and does it fit? i am SO TIRED of hearing my bearings going to **** every time i cold start!


No update.
But I wonder if its just timing chain noise?
That's what has put my mind at ease for the time since I posted this.


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## Shtbox (Nov 27, 2010)

nater said:


> No update.
> But I wonder if its just timing chain noise?
> That's what has put my mind at ease for the time since I posted this.


I really hope you're right. My ******* puckers and my face cringes every cold start


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*

Well, I don't have extra money to just play around with otherwise I'd get each housing in my hand and see what is so different....
Maybe it can be made to work. Then install and see if the noise goes away.

Seems like a lot of $ and time just to find out if it indeed is chain noise or not. :banghead:


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Don't some/all Mobil1 oil filters have an internal check valve? Someone could try running one of those for an oil change and see if there's any difference.

I suspect it's either chain noise or the hydraulic valve adjustment system repressurizing. If all that racket was bearings I feel like every 3.6 would need new ones every 50,000mi!


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## Shtbox (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Oil_Filter_Check_Valves.aspx


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*

3.6L uses a canister element. No check valve.


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

That's right, there couldn't be any check valve in the element--shouldn't post before I have my coffee!

I still suspect that the noise comes from the top-end rather than the bottom. The camshaft adjusters and valve lifters seem to have the biggest potential for leakdown as they're furthest from the sump.

According to the self-study guide for the 3.2/3.6L GDI VR6, the oil filter housing has a check valve, and the oil pump has a reservoir that doesn't drain down to the sump to provide oil pressure right away. Based on the position and orientation of the filter housing, it seems like there'd be quite a bit of oil pooled there on cold start, too.

See pages 28 and 29:
http://sandbox.enjoybeing.net/veedub/vw_vr6_self_study.pdf


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## Corrado4Life (Jul 3, 2001)

I'm pretty sure the passat housing has a check valve. I have it off of the engine and can take pics tomorrow. 

here's the q7 images http://www.ecstuning.com/ES275791/PriceAlert/


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Corrado4Life said:


> I'm pretty sure the passat housing has a check valve. I have it off of the engine and can take pics tomorrow.
> 
> here's the q7 images http://www.ecstuning.com/ES275791/PriceAlert/


Nice! It'll be great to have some photos for comparison.


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## DBVeeDB (Aug 3, 2007)

All I can say is I definitely have this cold start noise. And it breaks my heart every morning.


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## Corrado4Life (Jul 3, 2001)




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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*

http://youtu.be/RyEDlq25kNE

This is a video I took this am, documenting the noise. 

But this is quiet compared to the usual.

Ill add a vid of the louder one in the am.


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Corrado4Life said:


>


That sure looks like a check valve on the right to me. Is the the inlet or outlet? Thanks for posting the photos!


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

nater said:


> http://youtu.be/RyEDlq25kNE
> 
> This is a video I took this am, documenting the noise.
> 
> ...


Sounds just like mine.

How are your new bearings holding up? Any change in the noise, before and after the new bearings?


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*



jddaigle said:


> Sounds just like mine.
> 
> How are your new bearings holding up? Any change in the noise, before and after the new bearings?


Noise is the same. And after 30k+ miles I'd say they are holding up well considering I threw them in there. :laugh:


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## DBVeeDB (Aug 3, 2007)

looks like there is a blank plug/port on the housing just like the older VRs. Maybe I'll add my own oil press or temp gauge.

video sounds just like mine Nater


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*

Thats the same housing as the 2.8/3.2 24v. Any of those suffer from the same issue?


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*



need_a_VR6 said:


> Thats the same housing as the 2.8/3.2 24v. Any of those suffer from the same issue?


My 12v does not have (never has had) that issue.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*

I dont remember my 3.2 doing it, but I didnt use it up much!


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*

http://youtu.be/NFQWHZWBH-g

This is the noise I'm more used to hearing.
I do NOT like this noise!


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

So after giving this some thought over the past couple of days, I'm leaning towards not adding this noise to my (overly long) list of things to worry about. Here's why--let me know if you all think I've missed something. Warning: TL, but hope you R anyway.

Let's start by taking a look at the oil circulation diagram from page 28 the VR6 FSI Self Study Program:










As it says in the accompanying text:



> Oil pressure is generated by a self-priming duocentric oil pump. It is installed in the cylinder block and is chain driven.
> 
> The installation of the oil pump results in a longer path for the oil. This can be a disadvantage when starting the lubrication of engine components. For this reason, oil is drawn from an oil tank located behind the oil pump to ensure the initial supply of oil.


At first this might sound not-so-encouraging, but take a look at the path the oil takes on a cold start: first, the oil pump starts up with the engine and pressurizes the line from the pump to the filter housing using oil in the oil pump's auxillary tank. The filter housing is already full of oil thanks to the check valve that Corrado4Life confirmed the existence of for us, so oil should start flowing immediately to its next stops, the crankshaft bearnings and lower timing chain tensioner.

So, where is this noise coming from? The high pressure fuel pump has its own aux. tank to keep it lubricated until pressure builds up. Next we have the valve lifters, the cam adjusters, and the upper timing chain tensioner. This is where I think the noise is originating, from one of these top-end components that are furthest from the sump.

They're all possible (and I had an experience a few weeks ago that I suspect was caused by excessibe leakdown the lifters or cam adjusters), but my current theory is that the noise we all hear is caused by the upper timing chain tensioner--it collapses partially as the car sits and oil drains out, causing the chain to rattle briefly before the tensioner re-fills.

That's my round-about way of saying I don't think the noise is caused by the crank bearings. Here's a shorter argument: the VR6 FSI has is now in its 9th model year and has been used in at least 6 models from three manufacturers sold all over the world. If it suffered from a design flaw causing premature bearing wear, where are the reports of failed engines? Look at how much forum traffic the oil pump bolt failure still generates, even though it affected only a small portion of all the VR6 FSI motors produced. The fact that nater's experience is the only one that we've seen on the busiest VW/Audi forum on the internet argues strongly that this isn't a widespread issue, IMO, and the noise we all hear is unsettling, but ultimately harmless.

For those of you who made it this far, what's your take? I'm going to go start up my VR6 now. :laugh:


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## fife78 (Mar 16, 2005)

I am leaning towards agreeing with Jeff and here's why:

I hear the same cold start noise as in the videos that Nate posted, and I cringe every time I hear it. But given the fact that Nate heard the same noise before he did the bearing work as after (correct me if I'm wrong here, Nate) eliminates, at least for me, a bearing issue. After reading Jeff's theory and looking at that page from the self study guide, the upper timing chain tensioner appears to be the last location in the oil path.


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## DBVeeDB (Aug 3, 2007)

Jeff, to me - your logic seems reasonable. Not that my opinion matters, But mostly the last part, about how we haven't seen any cases o bearing failure turn up to me is almost more convincing than the explanation of oil flow from the SSP. 

I think we are save.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*



fife78 said:


> I hear the same cold start noise as in the videos that Nate posted, and I cringe every time I hear it. But given the fact that Nate heard the same noise before he did the bearing work as after (correct me if I'm wrong here, Nate


You are correct. Same noise before and after I swapped bearings in.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The tensioner is spring loaded, it shouldn't need much oil pressure to hold tension on a cold start. 

I would suspect something that's inherently different between this motor and the 2.8/3.2L engines. Such as the HPFP drive assembly or the locking exhaust cam shaft gear.


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I would suspect something that's inherently different between this motor and the 2.8/3.2L engines. Such as the HPFP drive assembly or the *locking exhaust cam shaft gear.*


That could very well be. A little while ago mine started up sounding like and old clattery MB Diesel for a couple of seconds after sitting overnight. The cam adjustment being off due to low oil pressure could definitely be the culprit there.

Anyway, I'm still not adding it to my Worry List--whatever it is doesn't seem to be causing any wide-spread problems.


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Bringing this back with some new information--over at clubtouareg.com one of the users posted a list of Tech Tips, which are advisories sent out to techs regarding customer questions/complaints that don't require a TSB to document a production or warranty fix. There are no links to original sources, but people on the forum seem to trust the user who posted them.

_edit:_ actually there is a PDF of the Tech Tip in this thread:
http://www.clubtouareg.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2501&d=1187716711

Here's the one that caught my eye:



> TT-06-106
> All Model Year Engines with Adjustable Cam Timing
> 
> If you have a complaint of a rattle or knocking noise coming from the Camshaft Chain Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) for the first couple of seconds after the engine starts, do NOT replace the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) for this concern; it will NOT eliminate this noise.
> ...


Case closed?


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Differences between Q7 2012 oil filter housing and Passat..a quest for answers.*



jddaigle said:


> Case closed?


I've been meaning to post this thought: I actually think what we are hearing is normal. As time has passed I've heard more and more videos of this engine on YouTube. In my search for 3.6 exhaust vids it seems almost every 3.6 suffers this noise. 
R36 in Germany also have this noise. 

I'd say this is case closed!!! I agree.

And I feel much much better. 

Good info!


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## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Back from the dead!

I thought I'd post an update on this: I changed my oil a couple of weeks ago and switched to Mobil1 0w40 from the OEM 5w40, and my startup noise has all but disappeared. Instead of ~4 seconds of noise it's down to perhaps 1 second, and a bit quieter too. My guess is that since the 0w40 is thinner when cold it just takes less time to get pumped back into all the things that need to be pressurized on a cold start. I'll probably use 0w40 year-round since I only change my oil twice a year and my schedule (and Denver's wacky weather) doesn't really lend itself to "summer oil" and "winter oil".


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