# 17705, P0300, Multiple misfires



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

My car: AWP 1.8t 2003 GTI (1J vin)

A little brief history on what I've done prior to these codes:
EVAP/SAI/N249 delete
Cleaned throttle body with carb cleaner (not the sensor though)
Tucked fuel injector wires beneath intake mani
Changed spark plugs (Double platinum NGK's, gapped to specs) and coil packs.
Replaced "hall sender sensor"

I did all the above, and cranked my GTI for the first time in a month. Idled HORRIBLE. Very rough idle (sporadic vac pressure and RPM's), so bad the engine was shaking.

Drove for a couple of days. Idle smoothed out. Idled at a steady 1200 RPM's or so. (400 higher than it should be).
Hit limp mode on the way home from work.
Scanned with VCDS.
Pulled a P0300 Multiple Cylinder Misfire code.
Cleared DTC while idling. Idle dropped back down to ~800 and started idling very badly again.

Which brings me to my scan results I pulled tonight.
Cleared DTC's.
Idled for ~1min.
_Scanned.
_Drove 1 mile.
_Scanned._


Here are the two scans. First is the one I pulled prior to my test drive. Second is post test drive.



> Saturday,08,December,2012,20:38:28:63269
> VCDS Version: Release 11.11.4
> Data version: 20120807
> 
> ...





> Saturday,08,December,2012,21:19:03:63269
> VCDS Version: Release 11.11.4
> Data version: 20120807
> 
> ...


The radio is not currently connected, I would assume that's the cause for the 01304 DTC.

Oh, I forgot to mention. On the most recent test drive, from when I pulled the before and after scans... my brakes were very odd! It was hard to press the brake pedal. It was the same feeling as if I was pressing the brakes and the car was turned off.


Can anybody offer advice on my misfire codes?

I hate throwing money at a problem without knowing a cause. I have a guess that it might be faulty fuel injector wiring. I've done a lot of research but in my case, I can't find anybody with my exact problem.

Thanks for reading. I hope someone can lend some advice. 


Edit: I have a thread *here *which records my progress prior to these codes. It started as a turbo oil seal leak, and ended with an EVAP/SAI/etc delete, and everything else I listed above.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Bump.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Deletes are your first problem, and never cool for the street.

Seems to me that MAF or false air along with a bad DV is your issue.

Don't forget good ground wires to the coils. Hopefully you didn't delete any in the tree when removing your valuable emission components, which could also be part of your misfire.

Firmware level is also way behind.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Deletes are your first problem, and never cool for the street.
> 
> Seems to me that MAF or false air along with a bad DV is your issue.
> 
> ...


i would think that the deletes only cause his "improper flow code" but not the random misfires.
he plugged in the resistors.
its not the DV. he came over today and we swapped DVs, i have the same car. he had the same issue with my DV.
we check the ground wires. they're good.
its puzzling me too.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)




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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I think I was pretty clear already.

I don't know how or what was done with the supposed deletes, so must include them since the system is tampered.

Not a debate, just a fact of the situation. The trouble tree changes for the repair manual when things are modified or deleted.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> I think I was pretty clear already.
> 
> I don't know how or what was done with the supposed deletes, so must include them since the system is tampered.
> 
> Not a debate, just a fact of the situation. The trouble tree changes for the repair manual when things are modified or deleted.


I'm not sure why you're jumping the gun on this whole "supposed deletes."
Plenty of people have done what I've done and had 0 problems afterwards. I didn't cut corners, I soldered all resistors/wires very neatly and they aren't exposed to the elements.

With all due respect, it's my car and I can mod it how I see fit.

All I'm asking for is some help diagnosing what my idle problem might be.
How about we forget about my deletes and diagnose it like it's a normal 1.8t OEM engine setup.
We've ruled out...
The DV
The MAF (replaced it in the last couple of weeks)
Coil packs
Spark plugs


Madness and I are going to give Sea Foam a shot tomorrow and see if I have any vac/exhaust leaks.



Edit: One side thing I did.... I tucked the two relays from Relay Box into the plastic "waterfall." I saw some exposed wires while looking closely at all the wires in that plastic cover. I individually wrapped them up in elec tape but I wonder if there is more extensive damage I didn't notice.
(The wires were old and brittle from age. The plastic insulation had cracked from age, prior to my touching them.)


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] Parts is a disrespectful @sshole. MrSavvy, he was being a huge D*CK to one of our good friends in this thread. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?t=5877350

Mods blackholed it of course so you can't see it. be forewarned the guy has an attitude problem that needs a readjusting


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

oh yes you can see SOME of it... 









http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...a-O2-cel&p=79617789+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm not telling you how to mod your car, just pointing out that the mods must be considered.

Even if you think you may have done everything you did correctly, it doesn't hurt to re-examine what was done.

I am listening to what you said from post #1 and not trying to be a dick, regardless of what Big_Tom says.

_A little brief history on what I've done prior to these codes:_

Your DTC's are for #1 and 2.

Have you verified in 0x01-08-020 for correction and block 015-016 for misfire?

Could be the intake gasket or injector, grounds at coil packs, etc. Many things can cause a misfire.

_Idled at a steady 1200 RPM's or so. (400 higher than it should be)._

This indicates false air.

Yup Big_Tom the above link is me being a dick to someone who refused to play by the forum rules here, for not posting an auto-scan. 
Respectfully.
Fun tickets were qualified here, with an auto-scan.

Now back to your deletes you want to forget about guys.
When the N249 is deleted and you run direct vac to the DV this is a an issue for slight false air at idle throwing the MAF off and can/will in some cases cause a misfire.

Easy test though to isolate. Crimp off at idle and see if idle or misfire improves.

Is the MAF OEM? Did you try swaps of injectors, coil pack and plugs to move miss to new location for diagnostic purposes?

I guess I'm being a dick though. 
If you want to diagnose it like a 1.8T stock then make it stock again.
Then do each mod while verifying where things went wrong.

FYI, when the DV code comes up, it will limit max boost request in programming and put the car in limp until next key cycle or DTC clear. A quick log in VCDS 0x01-08-115 will show the truth.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Even if you think you may have done everything you did correctly, it doesn't hurt to re-examine what was done.


I completely agree.



> Have you verified in 0x01-08-020 for correction and block 015-016 for misfire?


I'm very new to using VCDS. However, I'm good at researching. I found those blocks 2 nights ago while searching on how to test misfiring. I don't know what my results mean though. I had green numbers counting and increasing in all 4 cylinders.
Also, I'm a bit unclear on what you mean by "verified in 0x01-08-020 for correction" I'll have to research that and get back to you.



> Now back to your deletes you want to forget about guys.
> When the N249 is deleted and you run direct vac to the DV this is a an issue for slight false air at idle throwing the MAF off and can/will in some cases cause a misfire.
> 
> Easy test though to isolate. Crimp off at idle and see if idle or misfire improves.


Ok I gotcha. So just pinch that vac line and see if idle improves? I'll give it a shot.



> Is the MAF OEM? Did you try swaps of injectors, coil pack and plugs to move miss to new location for diagnostic purposes?


I just bought a set of brand new plugs. I tried Madness's coil packs. And I haven't swapped injectors yet, to test them.



> I guess I'm being a dick though.
> If you want to diagnose it like a 1.8T stock then make it stock again.
> Then do each mod while verifying where things went wrong.


Honestly? Yea, you are being a d_i_ck. I asked for help; I didn't ask for a lecture from a condescending patronizing as_s_hole.

You seem very knowledgeable. However, you would do well to lose the "internet tough guy" attitude. Who knows though, maybe you're just a d!ck in person as well.



> FYI, when the DV code comes up, it will limit max boost request in programming and put the car in limp until next key cycle or DTC clear. A quick log in VCDS 0x01-08-115 will show the truth.


Very good to know. Thank you, I was unaware. :beer:



If anybody else has any advice or insight to offer, please don't hesitate. Thanks. :beer:


Edit: Here is a screen cap of my exported results from blocks 15 and 16.
I only ran the test for about 4 seconds. I stopped once I realized I had no idea what the results meant. haha
Edit2: This might actually be the wrong log. Not sure. :facepalm: Again, I'm new to using VCDS.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

im thinking you need to take a longer log.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

020 is the timing pull in VCDS for all 4 cylinders. It would help determine fuel quality and maybe more.

Dick or *******? Yup, I qualify.
Usually it takes time for people to get to know me and still I think I would keep those definitions. 
Its always best to know where you stand I think, then there are no higher expectations.

How about that air mass? OEM.
Intake gasket?

Nope crimp the DV main line in which is full on boost out of the main charge pipe to test.
See,... if that DV is switched on by manifold vac at idle, the turbo forces air in, in small quantities.

That would be even with, an,..... in order DV valve, which is why you must cut the leak to be sure, and then also try the vac line. This is one reason I respectfully disagree with an N249, and vac accumulator on the VC, which everyone deletes in error, or poor judgment. 
Did you do this to?
Did you also delete the vac line to the LDP?

You will find that the deletion of the N249 will cause all kinds of performance drive-ability problems from my experience.

Back to basics:

Probably not the issue:
I would also do a cylinder leak down test and compression check.
A small or even bad miss can come from a small head gasket leak in some cases while not even seeming like your losing coolant, or smoke out the exhaust. When removing plugs cold, I would swab the cylinder one hole at a time cold with a long Q tip. If it turns G12 red, don't be surprised, its a leak.
Bore scope will also tell if its washed, if you have one.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

opcorn::wave:


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

All 4 cylinders came up with 0 coolant traces.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

We might have found a leak in my down pipe. A small crack. Could this cause the problems I'm having?

Also, despite the attitude Jack (lol) I do value your opinion. What if I remove the resistor on the n249 plug and add the n249 back? I saw someone run that without the sai or pcv before. Would this help?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

The cracked down pipe isn't gonna give you false air. Would effect OXS and CAT more.

Its possible on the N249, that if you undo what you have modified you may find a solution.

This can also be verified through crimps though to isolate.

No problem like I said it takes time to get used to my sarcasm and strict protocol for the rules.

Have you tried crimping all lines to isolate each possible leak to or at intake?


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> The cracked down pipe isn't gonna give you false air. Would effect OXS and CAT more.


i think the ECU would think its getting false air because of the crack in the DP. If its sensors, MAF, MAP, AIT are telling the ECU "there is "X" amount of intake" but the pre-cat o2 sensor is telling the ECU "but theres only "T" amount of exhaust" then it would get confused. and blame either the MAF and/or MAP and/or AIT and/or pre-cat o2 sensor. which in turn, i would think, give random miss fires and inconsistent RPMS.
no?


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Ok thanks.

I'll try crimping lines. But I need you to dumb it down a little for me (I still have a good bit to learn).
By crimping you mean blocking a vac line. Correct?

Now, which lines? And should I crimp all lines at once? Or individual lines one at a time, to narrow down the "leak"?
And lastly.. will crimping a line yield immediate results? Or will it take time running? I would assume I would see immediate results.

Here are the lines I have...
Vac lines:
DV>intake mani
FPR>intake mani
Intake mani>Brake booster valve
Oil cooler housing\valve cover>catch can>TIP (t fitting before oil catch can, and from catch can to the hole in the tip left by the PCV)

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt218/nstevic01/P1020388.jpg


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok thanks. *No problem*
I'll try crimping lines. But I need you to dumb it down a little for me (I still have a good bit to learn).
By crimping you mean blocking a vac line. Correct? *YES*
Now, which lines? *ALL and don't forget brake booster or to check it for leaks in car +check valve.* And should I crimp all lines at once? *You could *


Or individual lines one at a time, to narrow down the "leak"? *Either way and then release to find leak.*And lastly.. will crimping a line yield immediate results? *Most of the time yes if large like you say to hit such an rpm increase*


Or will it take time running? I would assume I would see immediate results. 
*If small I would say be ready to keep resetting the DTC memory for changed learned values but you should also do this with above at each attempt.*Here are the lines I have...
Vac lines:
DV>intake mani
FPR>intake mani
Intake mani>Brake booster valve
Oil cooler housing\valve cover>catch can>TIP (t fitting before oil catch can, and from catch can to the hole in the tip left by the PCV) *I would suspect the catch can immediately*


http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/t...1/P1020388.jpg


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> ]Since all you guys like to delete the vacuum lines for everything. Why not run an acumulator and electric auxilary vacuum pump, instead of doing all this crap to add vacuum back to the intake.
> 
> One it isolates the leaks.
> Two it allows everything to operate.
> ...



what is this "accumulator and electric auxilary vacuum pump" you speak of?
whats "LDP"?


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> *Since all you guys like to delete the vacuum lines for everything. *


:laugh: Hey if you have a vac line, I have a solution. Delete it.



MÄDDNESSS said:


> what is this "accumulator and electric auxilary vacuum pump" you speak of?
> whats "LDP"?


I'm curious too.

Just dug this up on Google. DIY
And found the kit the DIY refers to.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

thats fancy.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm taking my GTI over to the dealership after work today. I'm having them do a compression test just to rule out my head gasket and such completely. I'll get her back tomorrow after work.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

what is this "accumulator and electric auxiliary vacuum pump" you speak of?
whats "LDP"? 

LDP = Leak detection pump

The accumulator and additional pump are what I do when I want to isolate the systems while losing no function for valid emissions to be performed.

Additionally you should add a metal check valve for the N80 evap to the intake to stop boost loss past the N80 when going above stock ranges.

Really good metal check valves are all you really need to achieve this at every intake port except the FPR.

The additional vacuum pump isolating the system also helps for maintaining good power brakes.

The best thing is VW/Audi already makes PSI and VAC sensors which can be wired to a relay to maintain a specific value, or can even piggy back using a passat/a4 controller, which supports it.
Then you can calibrate using the ecu with VCDS. 0x01-08-008 to observe, with engine off, on a car which supports the pump.

A different approach.

Instead of deletes to improve performance . How about adding solutions which allow the mods clean, with real benefits?

I bet your not running a modified HD metal check valve to your booster are you?


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> I'm taking my GTI over to the dealership after work today. I'm having them do a compression test just to rule out my head gasket and such completely. I'll get her back tomorrow after work.


We could have done the test here or at your place. Auto zone rents stuff like that out FO FREE!


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Agreed, Maddnesss there is also harbor freight for cheap tools that you can keep.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

I LOVE FREE STUFF. Deletes are free. 


I'm thinking my discharge pipe is leaking inbetween my turbo and SMIC. Could that cause these issues?

I'll be trying the crimping and also the compression test tonight after work.

Edit: Let's say my compression sucks. That means I probably have bent valves, no?
Let's say my compression is spot on. That means it isn't anything internal in the head. Yea?

What if it's my brake booster check valve? That seems to make the most sense right now. That would explain my funky/sh!tty brakes right now as well as flucuating vac pressure. Right?


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> I LOVE FREE STUFF. Deletes are free.
> 
> 
> I'm thinking my discharge pipe is leaking inbetween my turbo and SMIC. Could that cause these issues?
> ...



im sure a cracked discharge pipe would cause these problems, but i highly doubt its cracks. if anything, its probably one of the cheap OEM rubber hoses.

if your compression sucks its either a valve or the head gasket. 
if its good, the head is fine and is doing its job.

its could be the check valve. that too would make sense.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Well I think Madness and I figured out my problem. My head gasket is fine... but cylinder 1 failed the compression test. Spiked at 170psi and quickly dropped back down to 150 or so. We put a table spoon of oil in the cylinder and tested it again. It held 180psi before dropping. So at the very least my piston rings are shot. Which would cause metal shavings to go through my turbo. Which would explain why I've been eating up turbo after turbo since I bought the GTI.

Thanks for the help guys. Looks like I'll be doing a rebuild.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_MrSavvy 
Well I think Madness and I figured out my problem. My head gasket is fine... but cylinder 1 failed the compression test. Spiked at 170psi and quickly dropped back down to 150 or so. We put a table spoon of oil in the cylinder and tested it again. It held 180psi before dropping. So at the very least my piston rings are shot. Which would cause metal shavings to go through my turbo. Which would explain why I've been eating up turbo after turbo since I bought the GTI.

Thanks for the help guys. Looks like I'll be doing a rebuild. _


NO NO NO, 150 PSI is fine for the issue and it shows the cylinder in question to isolate the diagnosis. Don't be so quick to wanna rebuild.

Its washed due to fuel being injected and not being burned from the miss.

Swap the injector and install a new plug, and verified coil pack.
Make sure the grounds to the coil packs are good. I bet they aren't.
Turbo's going over and over huh?! Thats more then likely from boost spikes from your not gonna wanna hear this,.... deletes, DV or incorrect N75/waste-gate settings or some type of manual rigged boost controller.


_I'm thinking my discharge pipe is leaking inbetween my turbo and SMIC. Could that cause these issues?_ YES


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> NO NO NO, 150 PSI is fine for the issue and it shows the cylinder in question to isolate the diagnosis. Don't be so quick to wanna rebuild.
> 
> Its washed due to fuel being injected and not being burned from the miss.
> 
> ...


i thought the tolerance for these cars was only 5-10 PSI.
not 30PSI.
there is no manual rigged boost controller of any type.
it look completely stock back there.
and the 1st 2 or 3 turbos went out before he did the deletes.
PLUS, his valves have been kissing the pistons.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> Well I think Madness and I figured out my problem. My head gasket is fine... but cylinder 1 failed the compression test. Spiked at 170psi and quickly dropped back down to 150 or so. We put a table spoon of oil in the cylinder and tested it again. It held 180psi before dropping. So at the very least my piston rings are shot. Which would cause metal shavings to go through my turbo. Which would explain why I've been eating up turbo after turbo since I bought the GTI.
> 
> Thanks for the help guys. Looks like I'll be doing a rebuild.


if the pistons rings are shot, which i believe they are.
its not from those that the turbo is shot.
the valve kissing the pistons is where the little pieces of metal are coming from and those work their way through the manifold and into the turbo, thus, killing one after the other.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> if the pistons rings are shot, which i believe they are.
> its not from those that the turbo is shot.
> *the valves kissing the pistons is where the little pieces of metal are coming from* and those work their way through the manifold and into the turbo, thus, killing one after the other.


Yea I forgot to mention this in my previous post. Back when I did my head gasket I noticed several pistons had indentations from the valves. It was like that when I bought it though, I'm sure of it in retrospect.
I had my fingers crossed that the pistons only hit the valves that one time. But the problems I'm having now would make sense if the valves were bent.

Edit: found pics from my head gasket replace. Here's one I just edited that show just one piston and where 2 valves 'kissed' it.
Large pic.
Unfortunately I was more worried about the valves so I didn't take but one or two pics of the pistons. I didn't even snap pictures of 2 and 4. I might have better pics on my camera, just have to put my hands on it.


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## lgibson (Jun 13, 2007)

It is ususally a good idea to take Jack's advice.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

lgibson said:


> It is ususally a good idea to take Jack's advice.


Yea I can tell he knows his sh!t. lol



[email protected] Parts said:


> _MrSavvy
> NO NO NO, 150 PSI is fine for the issue and it shows the cylinder in question to isolate the diagnosis. Don't be so quick to wanna rebuild.
> 
> Its washed due to fuel being injected and not being burned from the miss.
> ...


_
Ok. I have brand new plugs installed. I bought/installed them after starting this thread. So we know plugs are good.

Coil packs. I know they're good. However, like you said, I wouldn't be surprised if the harness is bad. Now the wires going from the ECU to the coils is actually the entire engine harness unless I'm mistaken. I'd be glad to buy a new one and see if that's the issue. That would also eliminate the fuel injector wiring as a possible issue.

I can swap injectors with a local MKIV to see if an injector might be bad.

As for my turbo dying repeatedly... the very first "mod" I did when I bought my GTI_


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Well there is an overlay harness available at the dealer for about under 60 USD, which goes to the coils, speed sensor and grounds back to the ecu at a reduced price compared to a complete harness.

There are also individual repair kits. "Crimp ins" That I designed a while back to help people.

Total coils 4 x 4 wires each.
Keep in mind you have two grounds per coil, so that's eight wires to ground which should be sent directly back to the battery. *You should do this immediately!*

That leaves 4 wires as the terminal 15 bridge.
The last 4 are trigger directly to the ecu. 
So even if doing a repair it isn't that intense.

As far as the kiss on the pistons.
I am always for replacing, after a hit, but it is pretty routine in stock engines to reuse what you have there with no error.

The valves of course are OK, because you are getting 150 PSI or better then more with oil.
It is more likely the rings have been washed from fuel, either over sprayed, or a bad ignition component. Also smell your oil dip stick for fuel. 
If it is saturated, you must vacate the oil immediately. This will also cause a rich miss. 
I have seen engines run with the injectors unplugged in certain instances for several minutes on vapors.

*? Did the car run without a miss after assembly of the engine before all these delete mods?*

_And I'm not a rice kid who rigs a manual boost controller. I do everything by the book no cutting corners. _

I disagree. You have been cutting corners everywhere from your diagnosis path and the deletes even being done. Not being a dick and want you to rethink your process from start.
Do not omit tests because you have already done them you believe.

Get a note pad and pen keeping a professional problem solver.

1: Describe the problem like we are doing here.
List known symptoms.
Avoid opinions or disguised solutions.
2: Verify and analyze.
Try to duplicate the problem if sporadic.
List possible causes.
3: Locate the problem.
Select probable causes.
Prioritize the tasks.
Identify the problem.
4: Repair the problem.
Determine the specific cause.
Perform the repair.
5: MOST IMPORTANT Conduct a quality check.
Recheck for proper operation and Reassembly! 
Check for cleanliness and appearance.
Just remember poor reassembly contains the word ASS and this is what you look like when not doing so!



Please report back a log of what 0x01-08-015 and 016 selected during a cold start of 2 Min's.

At idle please.

I wish you were close by so I could show you personally.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Please explain to me then; how do so many people run these deletes without any problems? How do you shave your engine bay without deleting anything?

"Correct reassembly" also contains the word a_ss_.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

_Well there is an overlay harness available at the dealer for about under 60 USD, which goes to the coils, speed sensor and grounds back to the ecu at a reduced price compared to a complete harness._
Lmao I am telling you man. My dealership is full of idiots. :banghead:
I just called them and spoke to the parts department. I told them exactly what you told me. I said "I need an "overlay harness," which goes to the coil packs, speed sensor and grounds, and back to the ecu"
She put me on hold for 2mins. Came back and said "Ok I have the part for you. The total comes to one thousand and six dollars" The f*cking harness for my entire engine doesn't cost that much. What did she think I was talking about.


_As far as the kiss on the pistons.
I am always for replacing, after a hit, but it is pretty routine in stock engines to reuse what you have there with no error._
Roger.

_The valves of course are OK, because you are getting 150 PSI or better then more with oil.
It is more likely the rings have been washed from fuel, either over sprayed, or a bad ignition component. Also smell your oil dip stick for fuel. 
If it is saturated, you must vacate the oil immediately. This will also cause a rich miss. 
I have seen engines run with the injectors unplugged in certain instances for several minutes on vapors._
Makes sense.

_*? Did the car run without a miss after assembly of the engine before all these delete mods?*_
Well since I did multiple jobs since it ran smoothly, I can't say.

_And I'm not a rice kid who rigs a manual boost controller. I do everything by the book no cutting corners.

I disagree. You have been cutting corners everywhere from your diagnosis path and the deletes even being done. Not being a dick and want you to rethink your process from start.
Do not omit tests because you have already done them you believe._

The deletes were not a form of cutting corners. I planned out how I would complete the deletes. I bought quality parts. I followed the DIY to the T.

_Get a note pad and pen keeping a professional problem solver.

1: Describe the problem like we are doing here.
List known symptoms.
Avoid opinions or disguised solutions.
2: Verify and analyze.
Try to duplicate the problem if sporadic.
List possible causes.
3: Locate the problem.
Select probable causes.
Prioritize the tasks.
Identify the problem.
4: Repair the problem.
Determine the specific cause.
Perform the repair.
5: MOST IMPORTANT Conduct a quality check.
Recheck for proper operation and Reassembly! 
Check for cleanliness and appearance.
Just remember poor reassembly contains the word ASS and this is what you look like when not doing so!



Please report back a log of what 0x01-08-015 and 016 selected during a cold start of 2 Min's.

At idle please.

I wish you were close by so I could show you personally._
Will do. Thanks.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Well I'm sure many are doing this, since it seems to be the stupid trendy thing to do.
There is no doubt.
It has always seemed to be a fight from the start of emission devices, being installed a long time ago. 
Starting with test pipes or air pump removals, or switching fuel injected cars in the 80's, back to carbs. 
Simply,..... it comes down to laziness, the failure to embrace new technology to move forward, or the willingness to learn.

As for as not having issues, I disagree.

I get more calls, emails, with related issues posted on cars, which people are in a loop because they have the deletes. 

When it throws off the basic learned DTC paths, or even those I see deleted too, in order to achieve no MIL. 

It makes it very hard for someone without true understanding/experience of basics to diagnose the car as you do to fix your car.

Why don't we do this for each deleted device. 
Lets discuss why, and what the benefits of that device are.
How it works, and why you want it deleted. 
A valid reason, or belief that there is a benefit stock as well as modified, besides a trendy, shaved clean cosmetically looking engine bay, or aside of the cost the components are to replace.

First one SAI system : Please advise.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

_"It makes it very hard for someone without true understanding/experience of basics to diagnose the car as you do to fix your car."_I haven't had a mechanic touch my GTI since I bought it. I do 100% of my own work. (no smart comments!! lol)

_"Why don't we do this for each deleted device. 
Lets discuss why, and what the benefits of that device are.
How it works, and why you want it deleted. 
A valid reason, or belief that there is a benefit stock as well as modified, besides a trendy, shaved clean cosmetically looking engine bay, or aside of the cost the components are to replace."_
Honestly, I couldn't tell you. This is going to sound very cliché and stupid, but everybody else is doing it. I have been told by numerous VW enthusiasts that the SAI and PCV systems are extra baggage and not necessarily needed.
Yours is the first opinion that these deletes are bad and potentially harmful.

According to your knowledge, is it okay to remove any of these systems? Or is it necessary to keep everything the Mark 4's came with?


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> everybody else is doing it.


:laugh:

same here btw. everybody else that has done it said the same. inappropriate check valves and vac lines, so on and so forth.
i believe IE makes a fancy piece that goes onto the end of the intake Mani. one can, people do, attach all vac lines from that point. there is 4 or 5 fitting on it for attachment. people do this to isolate the vac system as a whole.

When the SAI and associated parts are removed, when done properly, people have better fuel economy. less parts, less sh*i*t to break. smoother idle.
one guy said, there is a faster reaction in the throttle, but i dont see how.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

LOL like the sheep to slaughter.

Everything designed isn't always perfect, is why things like OEM programming updates, or hardware revisions are needed.

Some things deleted are OK, when they are improvements to the normal and even modified functions of a system while still passing emissions.

An OEM example for 1.8T for allowable misfire and CAT threshold changes, due to the changes from wear, and the fact that fuel additives for the US region have changed.

Now I think goals need to be established for stock/mod HP, and what the feasibility will be for those updates. Cost is one, vs benefits, and the fact that a car on the street requires smog.

Race cars are a different story, and consider that a thought of a different platform be adhered to, while trying to keep the old design, or maybe improvements or additions to enhance power, or even cleaner emissions. Racing is what gives ideas to implement technology change, and should never be suppressed when being done under the correct conditions.


Your example isn't one of them 

It is important to understand why systems are there and what they do.
How they will effect other items, due to there failure possibly. LIKE DOMINO'S!
OK a basic function for SAI for example. A very easy system to understand. (YOUR APP)

You have an air pump, a controlled combi valve, via vacuum switched solenoid by ecu and relay for pump.
When the ecu instructs, for example: during warm up when it comes on the most.

It forces air into the exhaust for a number of reasons. Cold start is rich, and the rich mixture vacating the exhaust is then leaned out by this air, to net a temp increase. This is a cleaner for pre CAT OXS sensor burn, and CAT . This aids the CAT in reaching temp faster, and the OXS sensor crystal from being contaminated. This is also why OXS sensors have heaters/internal glow plugs in them, to keep them clean, and on-line faster for lambda control, before the ECT cold start cycle is complete, from its pre programmed map to ON. 

Example hypothetical.
Which is why raw fuel from a misfire will destroy a cat as well will over filled oil.
A plugged/melted cat as a result will also cause misfires.

The misfire can start from false air being lean, a faulty air mass, any bad part in the system, or connection/ground for example.
As the misfire grows it can't spark the plug which in turn over whelms the driver and grounds for the coils causing them to get hot and further raising the needed ground path to inadequate.

Keep in mind the cat only cleans when it reaches temp to achieve the exothermic reaction process.
This heat is also why racers wrap the exhaust, to increase the heat, which induces a further exothermic reaction because of the air velocity it will increase to vacate the exhaust faster, netting more HP.

The last I checked from a performance stand point, looking for a benefit I can see none which would point to me not wanting this system, by deleting it. I do want my OXS sensor sharp and fast for a good A/F change. Don't you?

It is a part mechanical system, so yes things can wear like diaphragm, a pump, vacuum line etc.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Hahaha I was waiting for you to gloat and make a sheep comment. :laugh:

You have convinced me to reinstall everything I removed. I'll have to drop a couple hundred $$ though. Half the parts for the PCV system are shot.
Oh, also, in my state we have 0 emission tests. You hand the DMV $ for registration and you're golden for another year.
However, obviously, I want my car to run like it should.

I'll have to inspect my box of PCV/SAI/EVAP/N249 sh!t when I get home and figure out what needs to be replaced and what's re-usable.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Yeah you left the sheep one open.

Good for you! 
Please advise of any questions here.

I like the idea for simplifying the vacuum at intake and even enhancing it with an external pump.

Please always make safety your #1 priority.
Then move to the benefits something can have with real feasibility.

Read about design and function of the ME7 system and how it works.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Yeah you left the sheep one open.
> 
> Good for you!
> Please advise of any questions here.
> ...


Yes... I did. lol 
I'll do some research on it, thanks.

My only question off the top of my head; is there a way to test valves in the emission system? I know my PCV itself is shot. But there are more than a couple vac/misc valves (as I'm sure you're aware) in the systems I deleted. Before re-adding them, is there a way to verify they are still ok to re-install/re-use? Aside from visually of course. I'm gonna guess no.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

There are.

You use a mighty vac pump with vac caps to verify.

A balloon is also sometimes helpful to fab up large connections or cover.

It is the best way.

There is also smoke for the visual, which I am not fond of at all.

This also may sound crude: 

Take a garbage bag and tape it off around connections, or the entire intake. It will implode if a vac leak and expand if a boost leak. It will give you an interesting show in some cases, or special whistle/fart noise.


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I would still pressure test the entire intake tract after putting everything back together. I've seen properly installed new vacuum lines, and ic couplings leak. You just never know until you test.

As I'm sure Jack will attest; me7 is quite fickle. Even a pinhole that only opens under boost can be a problem.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Yes sir Mr. Rod Ratio.

The infamous cross check DTC! 

A helpful tech thing for the N80 and evap circuit to not be deleted.

IN VCDS 0x01-04-070 This test if completes slow, or won't complete, and times out, is a direct indicator of a vacuum leak.

I do endorse installing a metal check valve in the circuit, to prevent boost from entering the N80, which is in my opinion, also causes the N80 to fail, if subjected to boost, or especially mod boost.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Roger that.

Jack since you advocate keeping these systems, do you have a recommendation for replacing these hoses?
Hose 1 & 2
Hose 3
They both snapped when removing them from my engine bay. They were so brittle I almost didn't have to touch them for them to crack.
$240 seems awfully damn expensive for these plastic hoses. :facepalm:
I'm asking if there are alternatives that won't decrease reliability or performance of the SAI tract.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I have a solution possibly.

You still have the old broken ones?


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> I have a solution possibly.
> 
> You still have the old broken ones?


Yep. I kept everything. If you're thinking of the heatshrink method, that might work on one maybe two of them. But the 3rd is completely gone.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Nope 

We have some options.

You could buy the new ones. Yes very expensive!

You could electrical tape them, and shrink them if wrapped tight. ( least favorite idea )

You could cut/split the ends with an exacto knife, or razor blade carefully!, with safety in mind.

This will give you the connectors to the combi, and pump.

Then a visit to a hardware store, or auto store for hose.
I like the clear pex or clear tygone. Then you get some 360 degree pinch clamps.
Make them up yourself to fit.
The reason I like clear is, that you can observe for condensation, or water traffic, from a stuck open combi in the future, to aid you in diagnosis. When a combi stays open it dumps exhaust direct to the pump in small quantities,.... filling the pumps up with water causing damage.

Up here its a real issue in cold weather, because they freeze and destroy an expensive pump.
Sometimes depending on which one is broken I reuse the old and add one as a sight glass.

The plastic welder is also your friend here ( basically a soldering iron ) can be made cheap or bought at harbor freight or urethane supply company. This tool will allow you to take junk yard scraps, to repair, build, or rebuild what is often very expensive.

Additional ideas which are cheap with quick search on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...5573.m570.l1313&_nkw=corrugated+hose&_sacat=0


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Well I returned everything to stock, bought new SAI hoses for the ones that broke. Triple checked ALL vac lines, everything is perfect. Even check valves are good, replaced a couple.

I still have my horrible idling. Still have loss of pressure DTC, and if I drove the GTI, the misfire DTC's would probably come back up.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

If the car ecu is modified.
Now flash the car stock, or install a stock ecu, and follow the repair manual trouble tree to the finish line.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> If the car ecu is modified.
> Now flash the car stock, or install a stock ecu, and follow the repair manual trouble tree to the finish line.


But the ECU isn't modified/chipped. And I cleared all DTC's and still no difference. However, you mentioned I need a firmware update bad. I dropped the GTI off at the dealership tonight, going to have them check it out tomorrow. I'll have them update the firmware. :thumbup:

I'll see if they find anything and then go from there. Keep ya posted.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

After the update and all is settled, please post a fresh new auto-scan.

Then we can do the tests one by one.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Will do thanks buddy. Hey one question for you jack, software related.

Have you heard of an after market maf causing a dtc? The dealership says they can't diagnose past the maf because it's throwing the ecu off. It's a bosch maf, from ecs. Less than 500 miles. but I didn't have this idling problem until my deletes. The first 300 miles on the bosch maf were flawless. I feel like the dealership is bsing me.

edit: not only that but they're charging $200 labor to install it. Wtf. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem paying for honest work. And I know dealership prices are higher. But $200 to unscrew 2 screws?


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Seems unfair for the MAF install, we get .5 which is a half hour, that's more feasible.

However,.......

Keep in mind we get $100 to hook up with VAS/VCDS
$100 to generate readiness tests and the first hour of diagnosis time @ 90 USD.
Then we would add the MAF, but if its only a MAF, I might just install at that point for free typically. 
We apply those tests again, when we need to do again, during the final quality check at no additional charge, since it is required,..... not just for diagnosis, but to complete and final verify the repair during at least a second DCY.

I would believe, that the MAF could be bad, the wrong one, or a China clone. Even a vendor who sells it such as ECS could be unaware maybe they are selling junk.

If the prices are to good to be true, they usually is some type of compromise.


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ECS has been known to sell Chinese knockoffs(possibly unknowingly).

I agree with jack on the bad maf. Know anyone else with an awp that you could temporarily trade maf's with to verify?


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Seems unfair for the MAF install, we get .5 which is a half hour, that's more feasible.
> 
> However,.......
> 
> ...


 Yea that's what they told me when I brought the $ up to clarify.



Rod Ratio said:


> ECS has been known to sell Chinese knockoffs(possibly unknowingly).
> 
> I agree with jack on the bad maf. Know anyone else with an awp that you could temporarily trade maf's with to verify?


I swapped an older MAF I had laying around, an OEM VW maf. Fixed that code.



The tech finished on my GTI. He told me I need to replace my engine harness. lol On my ticket, the front desk guy wrote "tech found bad ground" but didn't specify.
Here's the auto scan I pulled as soon as I got my GTI home.

```
Wednesday,09,January,2013,17:33:47:63269
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57 75
          76
 
VIN: 9BWDE61J834060849   Mileage: 223100km/138627miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 06A-906-032-AWP.lbl
   Part No: 06A 906 032 LP
   Component: 1.8L R4/5VT     G   0005  
   Coding: 07500
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: 77F3EBF7553A61A0106
   9BWDE61J834060849     VWZ7Z0C6909824

9 Faults Found:
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
            P0300 - 35-00 - 
16685 - Cylinder 1 
            P0301 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16687 - Cylinder 3 
            P0303 - 35-10 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
17645 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 1 (N30) 
            P1237 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
17646 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 2 (N31) 
            P1238 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
17647 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 3 (N32) 
            P1239 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
17648 - Fuel Injector for Cylinder 4 (N33) 
            P1240 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
17705 - Pressure Drop between Turbo and Throttle Valve (check D.V.!) 
            P1297 - 35-00 - 
16686 - Cylinder 2 
            P0302 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
Readiness: 0010 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ASR.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 907 379 K
   Component: ASR FRONT MK60      0103  
   Coding: 0018945
   Shop #: WSC 00001 785 00200
   VCID: 32651AE3AED84488E78

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
            013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 909 605 F
   Component: 08 AIRBAG VW61 0202 0001  
   Coding: 12344
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: 2753FBB7C51A3120406

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 1J0-920-xx5-17.lbl
   Part No: 1J0 920 906 J
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V07  
   Coding: 07232
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: 2F631397EDEA6960886
   9BWDE61J834060849     VWZ7Z0C6909824

1 Fault Found:
01304 - Radio 
            49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
   Part No: 6N0 909 901 
   Component: Gateway KCAN    0001  
   Coding: 00006
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: F0E150EBB054B69851C

1 Fault Found:
01304 - Radio 
            49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
   Component: C7 Komfortgerát HLO 0004  
   Coding: 00064
   Shop #: WSC 04940  
   VCID: 37732BF715BAA1A0D06

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801A
   Component: 8B Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0009  

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802A
   Component: 8B Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0009  

No fault code found.

End   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday,09,January,2013,17:51:05:63269
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222


Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57 75
          76
 
VIN: 9BWDE61J834060849   Mileage: 223100km/138627miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 06A-906-032-AWP.lbl
   Part No: 06A 906 032 LP
   Component: 1.8L R4/5VT     G   0005  
   Coding: 07500
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: 77F3EBF7553A61A0106
   9BWDE61J834060849     VWZ7Z0C6909824

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ASR.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 907 379 K
   Component: ASR FRONT MK60      0103  
   Coding: 0018945
   Shop #: WSC 00001 785 00200
   VCID: 32651AE3AED84488E78

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
            013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 909 605 F
   Component: 08 AIRBAG VW61 0202 0001  
   Coding: 12344
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: 2753FBB7C51A3120406

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 1J0-920-xx5-17.lbl
   Part No: 1J0 920 906 J
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V07  
   Coding: 07232
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: 2F631397EDEA6960886
   9BWDE61J834060849     VWZ7Z0C6909824

1 Fault Found:
01304 - Radio 
            49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
   Part No: 6N0 909 901 
   Component: Gateway KCAN    0001  
   Coding: 00006
   Shop #: WSC 00001  
   VCID: F0E150EBB054B69851C

1 Fault Found:
01304 - Radio 
            49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
   Component: C7 Komfortgerát HLO 0004  
   Coding: 00064
   Shop #: WSC 04940  
   VCID: 37732BF715BAA1A0D06

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801A
   Component: 8B Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0009  

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802A
   Component: 8B Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0009  

No fault code found.

End   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
```

Tell me what to do/try Jack and I'll do it. I'm at wit's end.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

OK so no firmware update has been performed still.

Based on the trouble codes and the history discussed in thread:

You did try to tuck the injector harness under the intake. 
So,..... you may have induced a stretch causing that damage.

Verify the power supply BUS, or for that matter, jump it out with known good power leads as per WD.

Verify the signal wires from injectors back to ecu and run overlay if required.
This would be a total of 4 wires plus 1 wire for the power BUS.

Change the ground leads to all coils x8 and run an additional ground wire x1 from VC location, direct to battery ground. Make sure you are using coil pack part # 06B-905-115E Hitachi version and Bosch spark plug FR7DTC or FR7LDC+ or FR7DSR or FR7LTCR not NGK!

Fix the boost leak or DV bypass valve/function,.... by verifying the switched vacuum, and make sure the accumulator, which stores energy, is installed back on the intake/top of VC.

You could always consider a new harness or additionally the over lay factory harness for the coil pack area, but it doesn't solve the problem for the injector issue with the over lay harness.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

What do you mean by "power supply bus"? I asked some buddies they aren't sure either.

You said change the ground leads from each coil pack, x8. So 2 grounds per coil. Can I just use regular copper (12g?) electrical wire?
And why do you think the coil pack grounds might be faulty? If they were, wouldn't I have a CP DTC not a FI DTC?

The accumulator is installed. I reverted everything to OEM standard.

As for buying a new harness... they run $900-$1k. I'd just as soon spend an extra $500 and buy an entire 6spd engine with a harness attached, before I bought a new harness. 

Edit: I just tested the voltage on the injectors with a multimeter. Using both the VC first and then the injector ground. I got exactly 3.47v on each injector. If all 4 are reading the exact same, that means the harness is fine (unless I'm missing something here).


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh and check this out.


```
Thursday,10,January,2013,15:52:52:63269
VCDS Release 11.11.5:  Generic OBD2
TID 01 - Rich to lean sensor threshold voltage N/A
TID 02 - Lean to rich sensor threshold voltage N/A
TID 03 - Low sensor voltage for switch time calculation N/A
TID 04 - High sensor voltage for switch time calculation N/A
TID 05 - Rich to lean sensor switch time N/A
TID 06 - Lean to rich sensor switch time N/A
TID 07 - Minimum sensor voltage for test cycle N/A
TID 08 - Maximum sensor voltage for test cycle N/A
TID 09 - Time between sensor transitions N/A
TID 10 - Sensor period N/A



Thursday,10,January,2013,15:52:34:63269
VCDS Release 11.11.5:  Generic OBD2
TID 01 - Rich to lean sensor threshold voltage Test:0.630 V
TID 02 - Lean to rich sensor threshold voltage Test:0.630 V
TID 03 - Low sensor voltage for switch time calculation N/A
TID 04 - High sensor voltage for switch time calculation N/A
TID 05 - Rich to lean sensor switch time N/A
TID 06 - Lean to rich sensor switch time N/A
TID 07 - Minimum sensor voltage for test cycle Test:0.200 V - Min:0.000 V - Max:0.620 V
TID 08 - Maximum sensor voltage for test cycle Test:0.695 V - Min:0.640 V - Max:1.040 V
TID 09 - Time between sensor transitions N/A
TID 10 - Sensor period N/A

Thursday,10,January,2013,15:53:16:63269
VCDS Release 11.11.5:  Generic OBD2
Mode 01 - PID 01 : Readiness  --  Address 10

Number of DTCs stored: 0  --  MIL Status: MIL OFF
Misfire monitoring:  Passed
Fuel System:  Passed
Comprehensive Components:  Passed
Catalyst monitoring:  Failed or Incomplete
Heated catalyst monitoring: Not installed.
Evaporative system monitoring:  Failed or Incomplete
Secondary air system monitoring:  Failed or Incomplete
A/C system refrigerant monitoring: Not installed.
Oxygen sensor monitoring:  Failed or Incomplete
Oxygen sensor heater monitoring:  Failed or Incomplete
Exhaust Gas Recirculation: Not installed.
```
I'm still learning VCDS. But doesn't that say my pre-cat 02 sensor is bad? (no readings)
And my cat itself failed?

Edit: also, I should mention. Madness and I found an exhaust leak in the flex section of my DP. Not sure if I mentioned that already, or if that could attribute to all this craziness.


----------



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

I think you just need a o2 sensor.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

bump


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

What do you mean by "power supply bus"? I asked some buddies they aren't sure either.



_Power switched VIA the ignition and through ECU supply voltage relay to all parts_



You said change the ground leads from each coil pack, x8. So 2 grounds per coil. Can I just use regular copper (12g?) electrical wire? 

_Nope just buy the repair kits with tool and crimps._




And why do you think the coil pack grounds might be faulty? If they were, wouldn't I have a CP DTC not a FI DTC? 

_Nope speaking from day to day experience here._


The accumulator is installed. I reverted everything to OEM standard. _OK_


As for buying a new harness... they run $900-$1k. I'd just as soon spend an extra $500 and buy an entire 6spd engine with a harness attached, before I bought a new harness. 

_UNDERSTOOD JUST OPTIONS PRESENTED._


Edit: I just tested the voltage on the injectors with a multimeter. Using both the VC first and then the injector ground. I got exactly 3.47v on each injector. If all 4 are reading the exact same, that means the harness is fine (unless I'm missing something here). 

_FOLLOW THE REPAIR MANUAL STOP GUESSING._

_Use VCDS not OBD2 mode its really worthless compared to using real tests in 0x01_


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Hahahaha FINE. You're hilarious when you get riled up.

Verification needed: Repair manual. You referring to the all powerful Bentley?


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Well yeah the WD there and the test terminal Id's are pretty good for your application and then there is Erwin from VW direct.

Wow,.... wasn't trying to be funny, or thought I was riled up. 

Really trying to guide you proper.

What do you think, I use the Matco Crystal ball, or something?

Oh you could use temporary back probes with alligator clips to verify grounds/B+ but for the time it takes to do this, you might as well run the leads.


----------



## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Issue resolved. The disc that sits inside the rod that pivots within the throttle body was the culprit. It had become misaligned. When I ran a TBA, adapt percentage was at aprox 15%.
I had to manually unscrew the two screws in the TB cross-beam/rod, adjust the TB disc, and re-tighten the 2 screws. After that I ran another TBA, adaptation percentage settled at around 10%. That's a 5% difference, enough to cause misfires in all cylinders, and give other DTC's.

Maybe this will help people out in the future who come across my problem, and this will save you time. Also, make sure you use a new throttle body gasket each time it's removed.
And just for reference, a TBA is a "Throttle Body Alignment."

Thank you greatly to all who offered advice, tips, and helped me out. :beer:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Great so it was false air, like I said,.... when we discussed the 1200 RPM issue.

It would seem you induced this when cleaning the TB, based on information.

This is why it is important to pay attention to what you are doing.


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Great so it was false air, like I said,.... when we discussed the 1200 RPM issue.
> 
> It would seem you induced this when cleaning the TB, based on information.
> 
> This is why it is important to pay attention to what you are doing.


Watch your damn mouth. :wave:

I do pay attention to what I'm doing. I know this might surprise you, but I'm not perfect... I mess up sometimes. 

Thanks for your dedication in helping my GTI get back up and running. I really appreciate it buddy.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> Issue resolved. The disc that sits inside the rod that pivots within the throttle body was the culprit. It had become misaligned. When I ran a TBA, adapt percentage was at aprox 15%.
> I had to manually unscrew the two screws in the TB cross-beam/rod, adjust the TB disc, and re-tighten the 2 screws. After that I ran another TBA, adaptation percentage settled at around 10%. That's a 5% difference, enough to cause misfires in all cylinders, and give other DTC's.
> 
> Maybe this will help people out in the future who come across my problem, and this will save you time. Also, make sure you use a new throttle body gasket each time it's removed.
> ...





[email protected] Parts said:


> would seem you induced this when cleaning the TB, based on information.


No sh*i*t Sherlock.



[email protected] Parts said:


> Deletes are your first problem


The deletes were never the problem.



[email protected] Parts said:


> never cool for the street.


Your opinion, not fact.



[email protected] Parts said:


> Great so it was false air, like I said,.... when we discussed the 1200 RPM issue./QUOTE]
> 
> *you never, definitively, said this.*
> 
> ...


Not at all related to the deletes which you were oh so convinced of being the culprit.



[email protected] Parts said:


> back to your deletes you want to forget about guys.
> When the N249 is deleted and you run direct vac to the DV this is a an issue for slight false air at idle throwing the MAF off and can/will in some cases cause a misfire.
> 
> If you want to diagnose it like a 1.8T stock then make it stock again.





[email protected] Parts said:


> I think I was pretty clear already.
> 
> I don't know how or what was done with the supposed deletes, so must include them since the system is tampered.
> 
> Not a debate, just a fact of the situation. The trouble tree changes for the repair manual when things are modified or deleted.


Wrong and wrong. A gas motor only needs 3 things to function properly; Fuel, Compression and spark. Modified or stock.
Again, problem had nothing to do with the deletes.



[email protected] Parts said:


> Its washed due to fuel being injected and not being burned from the miss.


It was not "washed", only has more wear and tear from the previous owner.



[email protected] Parts said:


> more then likely from boost spikes from your not gonna wanna hear this,.... deletes, DV or incorrect N75/waste-gate settings or some type of manual rigged boost controller.


Wrong again. I agree the deletes could cause boost spikes if sh*i*t were done half fast, but it was not. Everything was done the proper way with tried and true methods.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Ah huh!


You really are mad, maddnesss!



I'm sorry you wear your heart on your sleeve.
Yay the car is fixed.

Deletes do really stink, just my opinion, and when it corrupts the normal diagnostic path, which is written, it makes it hard for someone who isn't familiar with basics.

These cars I can tell you, don't just need fuel, spark, and compression, to run proper as a gas engine. I guess you never heard of cross checks, or limp modes etc.

Ah yes,.... the deletes did cause it. 
If he never would of been duped into it. 
He probably wouldn't of under taken the disruption,.... to the TV.

What ever,.... you know best, that's why your Maddnesss! Mad I say!

I just tried to help as a guide. 
Its hard to do with an inexperienced person, when the repair manual will say otherwise.

I believe everyone makes mistakes, even me. I did say false air though LOL!

Nite Nite Maddnesss, you are the man.:beer:

You find things, to make things go, to find for things you need. You are smart! *S*amaritan *S*nare *S*mart.
You need help! Is your car the Mondoor? Rubber band broke? Thats your three S's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeFoGo3N_4g


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Deletes do really stink, just my opinion, and when it corrupts the normal diagnostic path, which is written, it makes it hard for someone who isn't familiar with basics.


Well if we're going to break it down here... you didn't say "I think delete's are bad" or "in my opinion deletes are bad," etc... You clearly stated they are bad. No questions.


[email protected] Parts said:


> Deletes are your first problem, and never cool for the street.





> Ah yes,.... the deletes did cause it.
> If he never would of been duped into it.
> He probably wouldn't of under taken the disruption,.... to the TV.


No, the deletes didn't cause it. I cleaned my throttle body before I even decided to do the deletes.
And I missed that... what the hell does that mean? "Duped into it"?? I make my own decisions and choices. I researched how to properly delete emission components, I bought everything I needed, and I did everything correctly.
And now I'm going to re-buy everything and do it a second time, even better than the first.



> I just tried to help as a guide.
> Its hard to do with an inexperienced person, when the repair manual will say otherwise.


Second time you've patronized me in one post.


Madness brings several valid points to the table. Also, I would like to point out that Madness and I haven't reacted negatively to any of your previous a_ss_hole comments. Yet when Madness makes _one_ post challenging _your_ claims in this thread, you fill up a post with words dripping in sarcasm.
I always stick with my homies, especially over some guy on the other side of the internet, who comes off as a complete a_ss_hole, but who really just needs to "be warmed up to."
Ain't nobody got time for that.

Everybody has said their pieces. Let's leave it at this.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

:heart:I DISAGREE.

AT LEAST YOU LEARNED SOMETHING!

"Homies" LOL 

10-4,....... PEACE OUT BOYYYYYYYYzzzzzzzzzzz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGkVcnIuj0


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

Yea. Homies. You know, friends? Wouldn't expect you to understand that concept though. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Awsome!..... You're Right I hate all equally.

You should know one thing if you read my posts here.

If anyone is gonna say something stupid, its going to be me.:thumbup:

I thrive on negative attention,.... because,.. its still attention!

Hey wanna be my friend now?

Just glad you gots your car fixed, so you can hang more with the homies.

Piece/Peace out home slice! Just not seven rounds here in NY!:heart:


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## RichardSEL (Apr 5, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> Issue resolved. The disc that sits inside the rod that pivots within the throttle body was the culprit. It had become misaligned. When I ran a TBA, adapt percentage was at aprox 15%.
> I had to manually unscrew the two screws in the TB cross-beam/rod, adjust the TB disc, and re-tighten the 2 screws. After that I ran another TBA, adaptation percentage settled at around 10%. That's a 5% difference, enough to cause misfires in all cylinders, and give other DTC's.
> 
> Maybe this will help people out in the future who come across my problem, and this will save you time. Also, make sure you use a new throttle body gasket each time it's removed.
> ...


 I've got mine to do if the figs below are too far out? '06 2L tFSI 

Address 01: Engine (3C0 907 115 Q) 

13:21:11 Group 060: Speed Regulation (Basic Setting: Throttle Body Adaptation) 
16.4 % Throttle Drive Angle Sensor 1 
83.2 % Throttle Drive Angle Sensor 2 
8 Self-Adaptation Steps Counter 
ADP. O.K. Result Throttle Valve Adp.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Jesus is coming again.!!!! Keep up with deletes and see where it leads. 

OHHH there a coming. 

http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/air/cases/edgeproducts.html


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## RichardSEL (Apr 5, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Jesus is coming again.!!!! Keep up with deletes and see where it leads.


 What a terrible way to spend Easter 
Hows my TB figs in prevous post? Good? Bad? Indifferent?


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## MrSavvy (Mar 21, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Jesus is coming again.!!!! Keep up with deletes and see where it leads.
> 
> OHHH there a coming.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/air/cases/edgeproducts.html


 First off, you look really f_u_cking immature right now. And that's putting it softly. 
Second off, you look really f_u_cking stupid right now. Last time I checked, my MK4 isn't a 07+ TRUCK. It isn't diesel. And my state doesn't give emission tests. EVER. 
Also, do you even understand what PM is? I highly doubt you're even aware of the difference between the excess amount of PM in diesel and gas emissions. 

Your posting that article literally brings 0 valid points to the argument you're trying so hard to bring into fruition. Stop trying before you embarrass yourself further. 

Honestly, the more of your posts I read, the more I pity you. 



RichardSEL said:


> What a terrible way to spend Easter
> Hows my TB figs in prevous post? Good? Bad? Indifferent?


 Hey Richard. What engine do you have, a 1.8t? What year is your car? What makes you question your adaptation %?


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## RichardSEL (Apr 5, 2010)

MrSavvy said:


> Hey Richard. What engine do you have, a 1.8t? What year is your car? What makes you question your adaptation %?


 I've got mine to do if the figs below are too far out? '06 2L tFSI BWA in a 3c5 55k 
Address 01: Engine (3C0 907 115 Q) 

13:21:11 Group 060: Speed Regulation (Basic Setting: Throttle Body Adaptation) 
16.4 % Throttle Drive Angle Sensor 1 
83.2 % Throttle Drive Angle Sensor 2 
8 Self-Adaptation Steps Counter 
ADP. O.K. Result Throttle Valve Adp. 

Coz poster said that he'd got his down to 10% and it was better/fixed his problem


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I guess you missed the point, it went right passed your little peanut. 

NO no no this is immature. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ekIzGfJkBs


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