# Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect?



## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Hey everyone!
I'm in the midst of my 16v ABA swap and with complexities and the cost of expected purchases on the rise I have decided to opt out of a turbo setup in favor of a solid NA setup.
First off, a little information:
OBD1 ABA with a 2.0L 16v head, ARP head bolts, BBM Dizzy Gizzy, stock ABA headgasket, low impedance injectors (65lbs/hr) and a 4 bar FPR mated to a 1.8t intake manifold that was modified to fit a 16v head, stock exhaust manifold w/ OEM dual outlet downpipe running to a 2.5" TT catback system (deleted cat), all on standalone (034 efi).
I bought the intake for the sake of the turbocharger setup and now i think the injectors might be a little overkill. I'll have to examine 034 a little more to see if i can "de-tune" the injectors a little using the computer. Any one have any other suggestions? 
I also have a Walbro 255LPH External Fuel Pump that i can install as well. Should i proceed with the installation of this fuel pump or do you think my stock pump (1992 8v GTI) will be enough?
I'm also going to purchase ABF pistons to raise the compression back up. Does anyone recommend a certain company for these parts? So far Bahn Brenner seems to be the most fair priced. 
If anyone is running a high compression 16v ABA setup, please feel free to chime in with your experiences. If someone had dyno sheets from a similar setup i would be forever indebted!








thanks guys

p4v:


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## MattyDVR6 (Dec 8, 2002)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (lowlevelowl)*

i dont have one of these but ive been doing research for over a year now and sourcing parts slowly when i see a deal. what are you using for a fuel rain? since you have a short runner intake i believe you can use a 1.8t fuel rail to save on costs. your injectors might be a little overkill...i think the "green top" G60 injectors are what several people run, although thats on ABA16v motors utiliazing factory montronic management.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (MattyDVR6)*

Well, asuming you are using the motronic management with a stock chip, I'd expect around 120whp, but with a custom chip and cams (obviously intake and exhaust) I wouldn't flinch at 150whp.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Yeah I'll have to play around with 034 EFI a bit more to see what i can do about minimizing the output of the injectors.
As far as the fuel rail is concerned, I am using a 1.8t rail. It's actually a pretty nice little unit!


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (ABF Jeff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABF Jeff* »_Well, asuming you are using the motronic management with a stock chip, I'd expect around 120whp, but with a custom chip and cams (obviously intake and exhaust) I wouldn't flinch at 150whp.

Nope, 034 EFI stage Ic with stock cams http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MikkiJayne (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (lowlevelowl)*

Can you get a 3 bar FPR for that rail? That would reduce your injector flow by 25% which would probably make it easier to tune.


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (MikkiJayne)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MikkiJayne* »_Can you get a 3 bar FPR for that rail? That would reduce your injector flow by 25% which would probably make it easier to tune.


You can.
Speaking of the 1.8t fuel rail, mine had a barb fitting for the return and a goofy compression fitting for the supply line. You can find adapters in the junkyard from old Volvos to go from that compression fitting to a small (1/4" maybe?) barb, which was too small for my application. The best solution I found was from http://www.swagelok.com -- they have connectors (available in stainless!) that will adapt 5/16" hard line to NPT which you can subsequently adapt to a hose barb or AN fitting.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (jmaddocks)*

Thanks for the information dudes!
Does anyone know what bar the OEM 1.8t FPR would yield?


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (lowlevelowl)*

IIRC, some came w/ 3-bar FPRs, while others had 4-bar ones. Just pop the FPR out of your fuel rail -- the pressure rating is stamped on the side.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Well i'm positive i have a 4 bar in there right now.
Most aftermarket FPR's that i've found are 3.5+ Bar so i might have to try and source an OEM 3 bar fpr.

I should be ordering the ABF pistons and a few other things i need next week


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

Found one:
http://www.germanautoparts.com.../96/2
It's pretty easy squashing an fpr in a vice to go from, say, a 4-bar to a 5-bar rating. Too bad you can't go the other way, though.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Thanks a lot!
I'll have to order one this week as well. 
I've never purchased anything from germanautoparts.com, would you guys recommend them?


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## SLOWBOY02 (Jun 9, 2006)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

if you send me your 4bar i will send you my 3 bar


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Also, does anyone have any input on which fuel pump i should run? The OEM 8v GTi pump or the Walbro 255LPH?


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## goofydug (Feb 5, 2004)

what did you have to do to the 1.8t intake manifold to make it fit the 16v head?


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (lowlevelowl)*

the walbro pump should be perfect with injectors sized correct for your power
the 65lb/hr injectors are huge, id say its unlikely to get the car running correctly on the 65lb injectors (the airflow they are designed to support is around 550hp. 
your maximum airflow in lbs could probably support between 140-160hp max in perfect conditions. so *you need an injector that could support 160hp with the 4 bar regulator you already have @ 80% duty cycle *
@ 80% duty cycle the injectors have more left in them so youd have a nice base line size to dial richer or leaner with the 034,
plus youll have the best throttle response this way as well as all out power. 




_Modified by Space9888 at 12:04 AM 12-31-2007_


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## push (Apr 12, 2003)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (Space9888)*

65 lb/hr injectors for a n/a 16v - no sir not going to work I dont care if god himself tunes your ecu.
G60 injectors with a 3 bar regulator will get you on the right track. stock 8v fuel pump is fine the walbro is a little overkill for your setup. get ABF pistons through bildon or get a set of JE pistons through INA on here. on sale right now for a little over 5 bills. a set of TT sport cams are copies of the ABF cams but I personally would go with a set of 260/276 cams to let that motor breathe. 
PS: I think your trans fell out








PSS: I have a set of G60 injectors I will trade you plus $$ for those 65lb/hr squirters IM if interested


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Wow thanks for all the information guys! I really appreciate it.
So right now i'm on the hunt for some lower-output injectors. I was thinking of ordering them from 034efi so i know for a fact they'll work with my ECU. 
http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=237
I found these but i'm unsure if i should make the switch from a low impedance to a high impedance injector before i FULLY understand the difference.

/google searches


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Ok so a local guy has offered to trade me some OEM 1.8t injectors for my 65 pounders. 
The 1.8t injectors are 369cc/min @4bar as opposed to the 682.5cc/min @ 3bar my current injectors are rated at. I think i'll probably make the swap with him (i'll get some cash too, of course







) unless someone here can suggest otherwise?
Thanks again for all of your input!


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Naturally aspirated 16v/ABA with ABF pistons: what to expect? (lowlevelowl)*

I'm running ABF pistons bought from BBM in my engine with Autotech Sport cams I made 143 whp (uncorrected) and 124 ft. lbs.
My timing map was way to advanced and was told after I dynoed it that I would have made more power with less advance up top. I'm guessing that it was probably right around 150 whp after taking some of the timing out.
If you're wanting more power out of it than this, for almost the same price as the OEM cast ABF pistons, you can get Wossner forged ABF pistons from Bildon Motorsports for like $50.00 more. I wish they had them available when I was building my engine. I would have loved to have 12.5:1 comp. over the 10.5:1 I'm running right now.
I was running 24lb.hr. injectors at 3.5 bar with this setup and was getting close to static at times.
Here's the dyno graph.











_Modified by evil-e at 11:53 AM 12/31/2007_


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

12.5:1 is extremely tempting! Thanks for the heads up, i never knew those pistons existed! I think that comp. ratio might be a little too aggressive for what i need. I'm looking to get a power increase from the 8v i had but i'm not looking to sacrifice reliability in the process (part of the reason why i scrapped the FI idea). 
I really appreciate the dyno graph! If i could make similiar power i would be satisfied.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

a little progress


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

034 can run high or low impedence injectors, when you setup the software set it for what you have. 
stock g60 injectors i believe to be 260cc/min @3 bar(would be my pick)
aph 150hp 1.8t injectors are 280cc injectors (probably an ok choice on 3 bar tho)
awp/aww 1.8t 180hp injectors are 317cc injectors @ 3bar (a bit big but might work)



_Modified by Space9888 at 12:52 AM 1-1-2008_


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Yeah i'm aware of 034's capabilities it's just I'm not certain of the differences between high and low impedance injectors. I'm assuming they differ mostly in the current they draw?
Either way, after some thinking I'm just going to try and secure some G60 injectors or something similar. So far everyone is telling me that these will be best for my application. Bahn Brenner has 24lbs injectors that i am considering as well.

I used this little calculator to give me a better idea of what i should be using: http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
I calculated it based on 150hp at the flywheel (a generous estimate), 4 injectors, 0.5 BSFC @ 80% duty cycle. It calculated that i'll require roughly 246 cc/min of fuel which is pretty close to the output of the g60 injectors or those BBM 24 pounders. 

_Modified by lowlevelowl at 6:05 PM 1-1-2008_


_Modified by lowlevelowl at 6:07 PM 1-1-2008_


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwtechryan (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

im running an aba block 16v head a 95.5(tdi crank with 9a pistons. from what i have gathered i am at about 12.5.1 comp. the 9a piston is 1.5 mm shorter than the abf piston but the 95.5 crank is 2.7mm more stroke than stock and makes up for the 1.5 of the piston and you get 1.35mm more air from the downstroke. i got the crank for 275 shipped to my house from a online salvage yard then took it to a machine shop where they knife edged balanced and modified the snout for 500. the stock weight of a 92.8 crank is 32.5lbs and my modified crank is at 31.5lbs you can get them down to 27lbs for another 100 or so. autotech sells the 27lb crank for 1900


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Ok so I placed an order for some ABF pistons and 24lbs/hr fuel injectors from Bahn Brenner today. It should be a week or two before they arrive so i'll have a few larger updates in the future. 
For now, here's another pic of the progress:









I can't wait to get that wiring cleaned up, it's driving me mad! At least i know where everything needs to be put once the new pistons are in and the engine is back together. It will look a little different after everything is cleaned up and a few more parts are replaced. Aside from the rats nest things are moving along











_Modified by lowlevelowl at 6:17 AM 1-4-2008_


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: (vwtechryan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwtechryan* »_im running an aba block 16v head a 95.5(tdi crank with 9a pistons. from what i have gathered i am at about 12.5.1 comp. the 9a piston is 1.5 mm shorter than the abf piston but the 95.5 crank is 2.7mm more stroke than stock and makes up for the 1.5 of the piston and you get 1.35mm more air from the downstroke. i got the crank for 275 shipped to my house from a online salvage yard then took it to a machine shop where they knife edged balanced and modified the snout for 500. the stock weight of a 92.8 crank is 32.5lbs and my modified crank is at 31.5lbs you can get them down to 27lbs for another 100 or so. autotech sells the 27lb crank for 1900

im confused when you say you had the snout machined which side of the crank, the pulley side or the flywheel side? also what was the reason?
im considering building an ABA with my brother. ill have to contact the local machine shop and see what about it would cost to knife edge and balance and modify the snout of the tdi crank. 
are you running the 16v distributor, or the ABA distributor?, either way who sells the appropriate block off plate.


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lowlevelowl* »_Yeah i'm aware of 034's capabilities it's just I'm not certain of the differences between high and low impedance injectors. I'm assuming they differ mostly in the current they draw?
Either way, after some thinking I'm just going to try and secure some G60 injectors or something similar. So far everyone is telling me that these will be best for my application. Bahn Brenner has 24lbs injectors that i am considering as well.

I used this little calculator to give me a better idea of what i should be using: http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
I calculated it based on 150hp at the flywheel (a generous estimate), 4 injectors, 0.5 BSFC @ 80% duty cycle. It calculated that i'll require roughly 246 cc/min of fuel which is pretty close to the output of the g60 injectors or those BBM 24 pounders. 

_Modified by lowlevelowl at 6:05 PM 1-1-2008_

_Modified by lowlevelowl at 6:07 PM 1-1-2008_

Impedence is a complex term describing resistance,current, amplitude, and phasing of a solenoid. from this you can literally map out the characteristics of the way the part will perform from point a to b over time. 
this gives us the ability to map fuel deilery throughout this cycle. 
heres how the two largely used circuit drivers and injectors work
peak and hold driver (low impedence/high current)- ecu supplies 12v to injector. the ground side is pulsed by the driver which is a 2 stage process. peak circuit low resistance circuit, this allows the injector to quickly pop open since the imp of the solenoid in the injector is low a strong mangetic field results, this forces the solenoid to pop open quickly and compltely.The hold circuit adds minimal resistance to the circuit which modifies the total resistance in the circuit separate of the injector, this reduces the magnetic field strength of the solenoid in the injector causing it to close partially, until of course the ecu tells the driver to remove ground all together the circuit is opened and the injector closes. the ecu controls the duty cycle (saturation time of the hold circuits.)the eintire cycles happen very quickly about 1.-1.5 milliseconds resulting in injectors fuel pulse. 
saturated driver-(high impedence low current) 12v to injector, ground is switched by the driver the driver pulses the ground in response to inputs from the ecu, when ground is applied by driver, the coil in the injector is saturated and the solenoid opens, when ground is removed the solenoid closes, causing the pulsed of the injector. Unlike P/H there is not a current spike causing the solenoid to jump, the solenoid operates more gradually (still as fast as 2-2.5 milliseconds.

since engines reciprocate at up to thousands of times a minute the little bit more control you would have with P/H or low resistance circuitry would give allow you more specific dialing in capabilitites. 


_Modified by Space9888 at 12:56 PM 1-4-2008_


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Space9888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Space9888* »_
im confused when you say you had the snout machined which side of the crank, the pulley side or the flywheel side? also what was the reason?

Apparently he used a Mk IV TDi crank which has the oil pump drive on the snout of the crank (that is the timing belt side, not the flywheel side.) If he had used a MK III TDi or TD crank, the snout would not have to be modified.


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: (vwpat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwpat* »_Apparently he used a Mk IV TDi crank which has the oil pump drive on the snout of the crank (that is the timing belt side, not the flywheel side.) If he had used a MK III TDi or TD crank, the snout would not have to be modified.

oh ok, thats good info.


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## Mk1lover (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: (vwtechryan)*

If you are gona use a ABA block with 9A pistons and 95.5 TDI cranck you will have to modify the pistons to prevent the piston hit the head.
The bottom of the head(the chamber) is smaller than the piston bore, unless you decide to modify the head, allso that combination is goin to give you a 12.5 CR and is to hi for sreet. In my opinion I will order a custom pistons.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Mk1lover)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mk1lover* »_If you are gona use a ABA block with 9A pistons and 95.5 TDI cranck you will have to modify the pistons to prevent the piston hit the head.
The bottom of the head(the chamber) is smaller than the piston bore, unless you decide to modify the head, allso that combination is goin to give you a 12.5 CR and is to hi for sreet. In my opinion I will order a custom pistons.
Firstly, how is the head smaller than the piston bore when the pistons and head come from the same engine originally (9A, no problem even if you use the PL head) so that is no problem. Secondly, the 9A pistons have a 1.4 mm lower compression height than the correct ABF pistons so the increased stroke (1.35mm) of the TDi crank makes up for that. You can offset the rod bushings to "push" the piston and therefore compression higher.


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## Mk1lover (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: (vwpat)*

I have both heads the 1.8 16v and 2.0 16v and both of them are the same in the bottom the diferece is in the ports. I mesured my self and it is smaller. If you use the 9A pistons will rech like 1.7mm over the block, less the head gascket its like 0.7mm over, so its goin to hit the head.
Go to wisseco.com and look the 9A 11:1CR they have and in the top of the piston you will see a groove or a step between the top of the piston and the shoulder. That is to prevent the piston hit the head.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Mk1lover)*

yes, the port shape is the only difference. (intake larger on 1.8, exhaust larger on 2.0) Why do you say the 9A pistons will stick 1.7mm over deck? All 9A pistons have the "groove" for valve clearance.


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## Mk1lover (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: (vwpat)*

Yes the 9A pistons have the valve relive(the groove on one side of the piston) but is flat top. The hi compresion pistons for all 16V engines have a litle groove around the top. 
Its a shame that I canot post pictures of it.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Mk1lover)*

I think I see what you mean looking at the JE 11:1 pistons. That is to raise it up to a true 11:1, 9As are advertised 10.8:1 but cc out to ~10.2:1. I \f you buying pistons, just buy them for an ABF, then you will not have to modify the rods. But regardless, the 9A piston, ABA block and rods with TDi crank combo measurements are approximately the same as a complete 9A setup so it would not be a problem.


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## goofydug (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: (vwpat)*

these are my wiseco 11:1 ABF pistons, note the deep valve relief


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (goofydug)*

nice, that is what I was refering to. It will not hit the head.


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## Mk1lover (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: (vwpat)*

I'm building a 2.1 16V ABF using a 1.8 16V head, 276 cams, custom wisseco 11:1 pistons, eurospecs 95.5mm cranck, stock 159mm rods and euro KR 50MM intake manifold. Plus a corrado 02A tranny.
I expect from 185-200 WHP.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

My new injectors and pistons arrived in town yesterday.
Now i just have to play run-around with UPS to get my stuff 
should be some more progress pictures in the next week or so


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

the UPS man made a quick stop by work today...

















T-minus two weeks til she's running


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## Hebero (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

can't wait to see what you think of it. Ive been dying to get a good opinion of this set-up from someone who owns one. keep the thread updated!


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

I will keep the thread updated, i guarantee it!
I need to get a few small things locally and then i need to figure out what i'm going to do for a crankcase breather. After that it's just tuning and then it's off to the shop for paint


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## rabidroco (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

the 1.8t manifold is going to hurt you on a NA setup, the runners are too short to build up the velocity you need to produce good torque. IMO I would trade it for a 50mm intake and a matching rail, or even better get the 52mm ABF intake and rail. that mani you have will be easy to sell on here.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Yeah i've been thinking of trying to trade it off for something else locally. If i can get a good deal on something i might. I wont' be selling it on here though. 
If i can't then I'll just run it til something comes along.


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## Hebero (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

I actually just bought the 50mm for my first part for my project. The shorter runners probably won't be the best thing but it will give you more room to work in the bay while you're tuning.


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

I won't be doing a lot of underhood tuning


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## Mylch (Nov 19, 2006)

*Re: (lowlevelowl)*

have you gotten my pm's?


_Modified by Mylch at 3:17 PM 1-20-2008_


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

Engine teardown to take place this weekend.
Keep your eyes peeled for some updates!


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## goofydug (Feb 5, 2004)

where are the freakin updates?


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