# Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers....



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Please look at the pic in the following thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=428241
He's running 12.3" TT Rotors and Wilwood calipers.....He bought the setup used. I think RPI used to sell it. Anyone have any idea which Wilwood calipers they are? The owner believes that they are the Billet Superlite 4s, but is not sure......Thanks!
-Mike P


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## drli (Jan 15, 2002)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (tyrolkid)*

I would need a better photo... I think that they are different then mine. Call RPI-Equipped and ask, they are very helpful, and friendly.


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (drli)*

Mike, your starting to think a lot like me. The brakes pictured are probably the only 4 piston 12.3" set up on the market that will allow a 16" wheel. This is of course due to the low profile of the Wilwood caliper. But then you already knew that didn't you....


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## chlubb (Oct 4, 2000)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (Crash6)*

actually, I am using the Porsche Boxster setup with Audi TT 12.3" rotors under 16" wheels as well. There was a thread about it a while back with some pics. Its a tiht fit but it works.
Chris


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (Crash6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Mike, your starting to think a lot like me. The brakes pictured are probably the only 4 piston 12.3" set up on the market that will allow a 16" wheel. This is of course due to the low profile of the Wilwood caliper. But then you already knew that didn't you....







[HR][/HR]​LOL. hehehehe
The only problem with the wilwood/TT setup is the caliper design doesnt allow the full rotor braking surface to be used. I need to find a caliper with more "reach" for lack of better words....
-Mike


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (chlubb)*

quote:[HR][/HR]actually, I am using the Porsche Boxster setup with Audi TT 12.3" rotors under 16" wheels as well. There was a thread about it a while back with some pics. Its a tiht fit but it works.
[HR][/HR]​Yeah I remember, we discussed this before. I saw the pictures you sent and believe me, I'm happy for that you got them to work. However, I have three major issues with your set-up:
1. I don't like the Porsche Boxster brakes. They were designed for a car with a *very* different weight distribution. Not to mention, the proportioning valve in the Porsches distribute pressure much differently and the caliper pistons are designed for it, not for a FWD VW with a weight distribution of almost 65/35. 
Just because they bolt up, doesn't mean that they are a good upgrade. I know I will get flamed for saying that but its my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
2. I know that you had to file the corners of your calipers to get them to fit inside the wheel's circumfrance. I will never ever take a file or anything to a set of brake calipers for any reason if I can help it. Plus, with the cornering forces I'll be applying to my wheels, even 1mm of flex would scrape with your set up.
3. I don't want to run the Audi TT wheels or any other OEM wheel for that matter. I want something light and durable. I have a very expensive set of Speedline wheels that weigh just a touch over 13 lbs that I am determined to use. If not then I'll try a set of SSR comps, I hear they have a slightly larger inside diameter. Should have done more homework I guess.....
Again, I'm glad you got your set up to work, but I just don't want to take that route. What I have intended for this car will require it to be almost bulletproof and everything to work the way its supposed to. Just being able to put it together right isn't enough for me.
*Tyrolkid:* In answer to your original question, I don't know which model of calipers those are. If I was in the states, I would be tempted to give Wilwood a call. I'm willing to bet that they make a caliper with a slightly larger/deeper 'sweep' area to grab that extra space on the rotor, it will just take some digging. You know I've been trying to do the same thing with the Seat Cupra 'R' Brembos. I've actually downgraded to an Ibiza set-up that utilizes 12" rotors. Now my big snag is finding 12" rotors with the 5 lug bolt pattern since the Ibiza uses a 4 lug.








Let me know if you find anything, I will definately be interested.





[Modified by Crash6, 3:12 PM 10-10-2002]


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (Crash6)*

After doing some more research, I have narrowed it down to the following two calipers: Billet Superlite or Billet Superlite ST. Very similar calipers, with the ST appearing to be more oriented towards durability, heat resistance, etc. 
I will call Wilwood today to see what caliper they might recommend with the 12.3" Audi TT rotors. Looking at various diagrams on the Wilwood site, I'm thinking the Billet Dynalite might do the trick.......
-Mike P


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## drli (Jan 15, 2002)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (tyrolkid)*

The Billet Dynalite is what I have and is pictured above.


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## chlubb (Oct 4, 2000)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (Crash6)*

Well, what you are saying is somewhat insulting that I am some kid off the street that bought the fanciest thing. I had this first on my Audi A4 of which was a perfect, engineering wise, upgrade. I have done a tremendous amount fo research on this. As for the GTI, this upgrade is within operating specs of the braking system of the car. The piston size is the most important factor along with the master cylinder size on your car. The Boxster caliper does not overshoot those parameters. I do beleive that the Porsche 993TT or newer 996TT calipers would be out of bounds and purely for look.
Proportioning is an entirely different matter that is based upon the cars weight characteristics and street cars are not setup as a race car with optimal balance.
One side note, buying a generic Wilwood caliper doesnt mean it was made for your FWD VW either, its the size of the pistons that they will look at when recommending one for your application. 
As well, the Seat Cupra R caliper is essentially identical in mechanical characteristics to the Boxster one. VW uses this, as you say I did, in a bolt on sort of way. 
They use stock size and caliper type VW rear calipers.
You have to remember that the Brembo caliper is always a Brembo, Porsche or not, maybe 2 piece or monoblock. The only underlying factor in all calipers is piston number and size.
As well, I NEVEr defaced my calipers. What I shaved was the portion of the caliper that mates to the adaptor bracket, thus bringing it 1mm closer to the hub to give a safer clearence.
A wheel should never flex in towards the brakes unless bent from hitting but there will be no lateral flex that will make contact occur. 
My car as well is being setup for track time and my system has been reviewed by a few shops and multiple mechanics. 
I am also using a set of 16" technomagnesio wheels. I am not sure what using stock wheels had to do with the conversation.
What it comes down to is that increased swept area and leverage arm of the larger rotor makes braking better. Caliper piston size gives you a pedal feel equal to that of stock as long as those measurements are indentical.
Besides that, as I mentioned before, looking at the Seat Cupra calipers is no better than what I did and saying that your cornering forces are extremem has bearing on using 1 or the other as long as fitment works.
Chris


[Modified by chlubb, 8:25 AM 10-10-2002]


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (chlubb)*

I was afraid this would happen. 
Please, if any offense was taken, I apologize. I know you are not the poseur type, quite the contrary. I enjoy speaking with knowledgable people as often as I can. I have not physically pulled apart a set of Porsche Boxster Calipers and a set of Brembos designed for my application and taken a micrometer to them. I also have not seen documentation as to the pressure exerted on those pistons, whatever size they are. I have however driven a MKIV with the Porsche set-up on the front, and it just didn't feel right. It was almost as if the rear was engaging harder and the back of the car would shimmy slightly under an extreme load. I actually preffered the distribution of stopping power better on the stock set-up. 
I have been working the brake issue on my car for some time now. I have spoken to many, many people about my options including Brembo USA and Brembo Italia. The Porsche Boxster upgrade is popular and it does work. However, I still don't believe it is the best route. Granted, the Wilwood isn't optimal either as you pointed out. They are actually quite indescriminate in their applications. However, they are cheap, light, and exert a lot of clamping force. I don't have $2,500 for the 305mm, aluminum hat, Brembo kit I really want, so I'm trying to get the best I can with what I have. Add in the OEM factor and the Seat swap seemed like the way to go. Not only that, but the Calipers were designed for a car on the same chassis. I admit, there is some pride at stake on my part just trying to get the kit to work and some considerations were set aside for that.
Honestly, I don't know how your set-up works. Sorry, I misunderstod where exactly you removed the metal from. Every 4 piston caliper on the 12.3" rotor combo I have tried, resulted in little red rings around the inside diameter of my 16" wheels and red paint rubbed off the corners of my caliper. I would hate to see the results after an event when everything is scorching hot. 
Your correct, the wheel itself doesn't flex that much, but your spindle/hub assembly will, especially with 8mm hub spacers. Thats why lug bolts have to be re-torqued and wheel bearings eventually blow out. If you are not suffering this problem when the car is being tossed into a corner at 40+ mph, then good for you. I haven't stumbled on to that magical combination yet. I just prefer to stay on the side of safety and give my wheels and calipers room to breathe.
Thats just me. Sorry if any offense was taken. 




[Modified by Crash6, 6:09 PM 10-10-2002]


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## chlubb (Oct 4, 2000)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (Crash6)*

jeff,
Thank you, I just felt your original post was a little harsh towards me. I thought we had discussed things on a higher level before. 
I, as you, were once going to use the SEAT kit on my GTI but it became very costly being in the US. The calipers commanded a high price since they were rare, dealers didnt stock them in Europe and would have to be imported. I only paid $185 for my Porsche calipers(each that is) new. That is a steal any way you look at it. 
I did a lot of research and felt this was the best for the performance and money. I did not buy them because they were Porsche, per se.... but you know that. 
I looked at the Wilwood setup, as my brother has it on his Civic and I just felt for the money the Boxster caliper was better overall, with more durability built in.
I too have driven cars with brake setups that dont feel right and I think there are a lot of factors to blame. My brothers Civic with the Wilwood dynalite kit immediately locks the brakes at 60mph due to the lack of ABS, I find this unacceptable and useless. However it may work much better on the GTI.
The pedal feel on my car now feels like stock, just not as quick actioned but that is what happens when you go to a 4 piston solid caliper from a single piston floating type. This was the same sensation on my Audi A4. The single piston is great for the jerky feeling pedal that snaps into action but progressivley looses feel the farther you push it whereas the Porsche are the opposite.
Actually, i would have loved to continue the pursuit of the Seat but it became too difficult. I was in talks with ND in California but they never got back to me at the beginning of the year. 
As well, the idea of shaving the bottom mounting portion was my first thought but came up numerous times in conversations with other shops as to the outcome of my problem.
I too hope that there are no issues that arise with mine being so close during track time but i wont know that until December. 
I think that I will take some more metal off the bottom to give me some more room for error.
The only thing I do not like about any of these 12.3" kits that people have done is the fact that the swept area of the caliper is not enough to cover the rotor and leaves an almost 1" wide ring around the hub of the caliper.
This is most annoying and looks nasty after it rusts.
I think the most important factor with all of these kits to remember is that by upgrading the front only we are disproportioning the braking and perhaps confusing the ABS somewhat due to the miniscule rear brakes we have on these cars. It would be great to do an upgrade there as well but then again if we all could afford to we wouldnt be having this argument now.
No hard feelings,
Chris


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (chlubb)*

Thanks for your understanding Chris. I will try to keep my posts toned down in the future. 
You bring up an interesting point with the front/ rear proportioning issue. During my research, I talked to representatives at Stoptech and Brembo, as well as people who have raced the MKIV. They all seemed to agree that this car has a little bit too much rear brake bias as it is. Hence the rear brakes are usually never touched. All the research so far has gone into the fronts.
I learned this first hand recently when I pulled all the wheels and brake components off of my car. The rear pads seem to be wearing a lot faster than the fronts. I will most likely have to replace them within 3K miles. One of the mechanics recomended an adjustable proportioning valve, but I would have to do some homework before I tackled that. Maybe running a different heat range of pad in the rear would make a difference? I haven't personally felt a problem with my brakes, but I'm very curious.
Ideas? Suggestions? 


[Modified by Crash6, 7:33 AM 10-11-2002]


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## 155VERT83 (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (tyrolkid)*

Very informative post. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (155VERT83)*

The rear brakes definitely have too much bias. I've run into an interesting phenomena on the track which I think is related to the bias. Here is basically what happens(copied from one of my older posts):
Basically, if I brake hard entering a turn after a long straightaway, I will have brake problems in the _following_ turn. The braking problem manifests itself like this:
I will begin braking hard. The car will brake normally. The pedal will then sink another 1/2" and begin to "turtle". It feels as if the car is braking the right side, then the left side, then the right side. I don't feel any ABS pulsation. Sometimes, it will pull heavily to one side and I will have to steer to keep the car straight(Very scary) For the rest of the track, braking returns to normal. This happens in turn 2 at Lime Rock(after hard braking in the front straight), and going into the boot at Watkins Glen(after hard braking for the chicane/bus stop). 
I'm running Ferodo DS2000 pads all around. My hypothesis is that the rear pads are too aggressive, and I'm getting a tiny bit of rear lockup(enough for the ABS computer to drop pressure(the 1/2" loss in pedal), which causes the car to act strangely. I've tried increasing the rebound dampening in the rear to no avail. Any help is appreciated.
-Mike P


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (tyrolkid)*

Damn. That sounds kind of scary. I haven't experienced anything like that, but then I haven't really road raced the car to that level yet. Like I said, my only problem so far is the difference in wear from front to rear. 
It definately sounds like the rear brakes are doing a little more biting then they should. Again, is this the fault of the proprtioning valve or could it be fixed with a different set of pads? Did you do some extensive weight reduction to the rear of the car?








Oh yeah, one more thing. Don't flame me for my ignorance, but does the proportioning valve split front to rear or a dual diagnol? 


[Modified by Crash6, 4:55 PM 10-11-2002]


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## chlubb (Oct 4, 2000)

*Re: Need help identifying these Wilwood Calipers.... (Crash6)*

no need to keep them toned down, just remember that some of us do things intelligently here.
I think one important issue with the rear brakes is that although they may have a higher than usual bias, it does not mean that they are sufficient enough based on clamping force. In coordination with overly large front brakes I think that the bias issue becomes more of a problem. The excessively fast wear of the rear pads is abnormal and perhaps the proportioning should be set externally to allow more to go to the front especially with the use of a larger setup. 
With the rear being overly biased it causes increased heat production in the rear.
I think this subject needs more study to determine if the stock biasing is bad for the braking system and perhaps not ideal for a track setup.
For example, maybe lower heat range pads in the rear and a proportioning valve would help.
I am interested in fixing this issue and making it more ideal for track use.
If anyone has successfully used a mechanical proportioning valve please chime in.
HTH,
Chris


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