# turbo won't boost; mechanics are stumped



## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Guys, hoping you can help:

My turbo is boosting at only one-third to one-half of command pressure. I'm watching this on the LiquidTT gauge. This problem seems to have developed over the last six months or so.

The car has the APR Stage 3+ kit with some additional motor modifications including: 70mm throttle body; Autotech "sport" intake cam (recommended by Chris Teague at APR for use with the Stage 3+ kit), Ferrea valves & springs, not oversized; ABD intake mani; Synapse Synchronic diverter valve; Mann Provent catch can; 200-cell HJS cat; 3" custom downpipe; Blueflame 2.75" cat-back; APR front-mount intercooler; water-meth (175cc/min, progressive), and the GTX2860R turbo (not the GT2860RS that came with the kit). There are also irrelevant mods, like Carillo rods, nitrided & knife-edged crank, DLC-coated wrist-pins, thermal barrier coatings, etc.

Aside from the low boost, the car runs like crap when cold (while the SAI pump is running), misfires lightly when warm (enough to trip CEL and multiple misfire codes), and I've been getting the 17536 (too lean, multi) and the 17545 (fuel trim, bank one, additive (idle), too rich).

The whole engine and APR kit is not more than about 10K miles, so the injectors (550cc, IIRC) and most everything else are new. Fuel filter just replaced. Swapped out FPR with another 4-bar. I've run platinum and iridium plugs at .028 and .032 gaps. I've got the R8 coils that Max has explained make no difference (but I assume they're not worse). I've swapped out MAF with another known good one. New airfilter (in stock airbox). Tech says both MAF and pre-cat O2 sensor are reading normally. Did a smoke test and there are no boost or vacuum leaks (that are discoverable through smoke testing).

I am aware of the possibility that the GTX2860R may spool up a little more slowly than the GT2860RS that the tune was designed for. But, it used to boost up to 19-21psi peak. Now, I'm very lucky to see anything over 10, although very rarely it'll hit 14 or 16.

Something's wrong. Something's changed.

Not only that, but the turbo has nothing to do with why it's running like crap at idle. (I assume I have two or more separate issues here).

I've replaced the N75 valve with two other spares I have, plus a new one from the shop, and finally a brand new "J" version — four different N75 valves, still low boost. I've added a stronger concentration of meth for full boost to help offset the lean condition (tech says logging indicates it running +22 at high RPMs). Turbo is not smoking or making weird noises. I cannot hear any air escaping due to a weak diverter valve, although it's possible it's happening and I cannot hear it. I have tightened down the DV spring a bit, which is supposed to hold higher boost pressures (which, admittedly, I don't have, anyway).

I've thought of getting a Hallman MBC, but realize that this is not solving the problem. The turbo used to boost. Now it's not. 

Regarding the low boost, only thing I can think of to do now is to fiddle with the wastegate. Also, I have a Forge 007p laying around that I could put back in to eliminate the TDV as a culprit. I don't think it's a limp-mode problem, because, as stated earlier, command pressure is double or more of what the turbo is actually putting out.

Regarding the lean code, tech says the fuel pump is outputting ample flow and pressure, and he speculates that I simply need a different tune, or that the 70mm throttle body is throwing the code and might also be to blame for the idle.

[Edited for typos].


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Hey bud, couple of obvious questions:
- was there anything done, or new mods added right before the problem started?
- was the TB an after though and the tune not written for it, and did the car perform well with it and the issues came later? 

I know the questions are basic and obvious, but want to get that out of the way so it's not overlooked.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Max, 

The crappy idle has been around ever since the APR Stage 3+ kit was installed. So much was done all at once (valves, intercooler, tune, etc.), that I can think of no way to attribute to any one item.

The too-rich-at-idle and too-lean-at-other-than-idle continuous CELs seems to have happened after I upgraded from the 2.5" to 3" downpipe and replaced the GT2860R with the GTX2860RS. 

Only change I can recall after putting on the 70mm throttle body was that the boost was a little lower by about 2 psi. Issam (INA), who sold me the TB, told me this is because the system was more efficient (i.e, the stock TB was a restriction).

Because so much has been done to the car, it's hard to tell at this point whether the CELs came on after the water/meth system, after the TB "upgrade," after the turbo/downpipe "upgrade," after the Synapse DV install, or after certain boost leaks were identified and fixed. Usually, I take pictures of the error codes on the LiquidTT, and I might be able to put together a timeline to figure out when they happened.

Yes, the TB was an afterthought, and the APR Stage 3+ kit is not tuned for it. I have the old TB and can put back on.

I'm willing to consider another tune. It's my understanding that the APR tune is no adjustable (except through a few parameters in Lemmi). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's also my understanding that the Stage 3+ kit, which uses the cruise-control stalk to change programs, is not a simple flash, but some sort of EEPROM soldered into the ECU. Is this true? If so, does that mean I cannot switch to a different tune?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Regarding lower boost, I'd start checking for exhaust leaks pre-turbo. Don't rely on smoke test completely ( Seafoam the intake...watch where smoke comes out ). Physically check for loose bolts/nuts at the exhaust manifold to head and at turbo mounting flange. These two places have a habit of vibrating loose and will affect boost. A tiny leak at idle can become a big " auxiliary waste-gate " under full load. 6 months after install is a good time to re-torque all fasteners. 

Exhaust leaks pre-O2 sensor will also mess up AFR, particularly at idle.

If you don't find anything. Disconnect the battery for 15 minutes. Reconnect then clear any codes. This will reset the ECU into " Learning mode " and can sometimes solve a low boots issue due to a bad tank of gas etc. A bad tank of gas or using the wrong octane can cause excessive spark knock. The ECU will adjust by lowering boost and/or reducing timing. It can take some time to recover. Disconnecting battery will force a " Re-learn " mode.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

> I've added a stronger concentration of meth for full boost to help offset the lean condition (tech says logging indicates it running *+22* at high RPMs)


WTF??? What is +22? That can't be AFR can it? If so ( and accurate ) STOP!! That's god awefull lean.

Run some logs with VAG-COM and check real time Lambda readings. 

Edit: Did you get the complete APR kit with the supplied High volume fuel pump? I just checked the component list to confirm that the kit does spec a 4 bar FPR. It does. 

Just curious... but what brand of injectors does APR supply?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Considering the upgrades, new TB, etc., it sounds like you need a new tune more than anything, none of your parts are weird or out of place (from what I can read). APR isn't known for having the best tune, and your parts aren't going to make nice, hence the rich and lean conditions. Also, am I guessing correctly that you are narrowband since you have an '01? The issues, while they need to be rectified, sound like them would come on a car without a wbo2...


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## 180dan (Apr 4, 2011)

l88m22vette said:


> Considering the upgrades, new TB, etc., it sounds like you need a new tune more than anything, none of your parts are weird or out of place (from what I can read). APR isn't known for having the best tune, and your parts aren't going to make nice, hence the rich and lean conditions. Also, am I guessing correctly that you are narrowband since you have an '01? The issues, while they need to be rectified, sound like them would come on a car without a wbo2...


TT is wide band in 01.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

180dan said:


> TT is wide band in 01.


Not on 225's. AMU were narrowband through 02, and became wideband in 03 with BEA. 



Chickenman35 said:


> If you don't find anything. Disconnect the battery for 15 minutes. Reconnect then clear any codes. This will reset the ECU into " Learning mode " and can sometimes solve a low boots issue due to a bad tank of gas etc. A bad tank of gas or using the wrong octane can cause excessive spark knock. The ECU will adjust by lowering boost and/or reducing timing. It can take some time to recover. Disconnecting battery will force a " Re-learn " mode.


I see this repeated a lot, but don't think it's true. There is never a period where the ECU isn't "learning," aka adapting. Adaptation happens all the time, and can be seen in block 033 once the o2 sensors are up to temp. 

OP, this just sounds like the typical style of APR's files being too "tight" on limits, and not playing well with hardware changes made to the kit. I know it's not easy to test, but I'd wager a good wideband 630cc ECU and injectors would fix all of the issues other than the boost. As for the turbo, try a line straight to the WG (remove N75 from control). This would verify the WG is functioning. Then try a MBC, or even remove the line to the WG, to diagnose that the WG is shut before boost onset and that the boost will actually be produced without external boost control. If you do this and have no boost control on the WG, you would just verify that boost will spike way up as long as you stay in the throttle just to verify that the compressor has no issues, WG isn't stuck open, etc.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Chickenman35 said:


> WTF??? What is +22? That can't be AFR can it? If so ( and accurate ) STOP!! That's god awefull lean.
> 
> Run some logs with VAG-COM and check real time Lambda readings.
> 
> ...


My tech, who did the logging and also a fuel
Pressure monitoring, said "+22 at high RPMs," which he said was minor. I don't know what that measurement means. I assume he was logging block 032. He said he wouldn't have let me leave it it was really a problem, and that I'd have other codes if it was.

APR doesn't make a Quattro kit, so the pump supplied with their FWD complete kit is inapplicable. APR said the OEM Quattro pump is more than adequate.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

180dan said:


> TT is wide band in 01.


I've got the AWP motor with the 8-pin wideband pre-cat O2.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

esoxlucios said:


> My tech, who did the logging and also a fuel
> Pressure monitoring, said "+22 at high RPMs," which he said was minor. I don't know what that measurement means. I assume he was logging block 032. He said he wouldn't have let me leave it it was really a problem, and that I'd have other codes if it was.
> 
> APR doesn't make a Quattro kit, so the pump supplied with their FWD complete kit is inapplicable. APR said the OEM Quattro pump is more than adequate.


Uhmmm.... APR have given you dangerous advice. The stock pump can handle a Stage 1...but a Stage 3 and a GTX2860R? No way IMHO. Especially if the pump is old and tired. As others have mentioned you are likely going to have to jump up to at least a 630cc tune and at least a Walpro 255 pump.

Your +22 is probably fuel correction factor in percent. ECU is increasing Injector Duty Cycle ( 22% above normal ) trying to feed the engine enough fuel because it is very likely running out fuel volume at high RPM's and boost. That's probably the reason for your 17536 multiplicative code ( Long term fuel trim running lean under Load ). ECU can compensate up to 25% before a hard code and CEL is thrown....but that does NOT mean that everything is OK by any means. 

Run proper real time Fuel logs block 032 ( Lambda real time ). If you don't have a VAG-COM or VCDS get one. Do you have a Wide band AF meter such as an AEM? If not get one. These are both *essential tools* for tuning or running any VW/Audi, especially when you are running a Big(ger) Turbo. A generic code reader is just not good enough. I think you probably already know that :beer:

In the meantime, stay out of the loud pedal until you can run some logs and find out what is really going on. I suspect that you are running out of fuel on the top end and under high load. Especially on the Stock fuel pump and a GTX2860R The ECU has likely gone into a fail safe mode and has reduced both boost and ignition timing. If it went lean, you would get detonation and high EGT's. Both would cause engine to go into " a Protection mode ". Failure to fix the issue could result in serious damage to the engine.

Knowing what your AFR curve is is vital when running Turbo engines at higher than stock boosts. Not a good idea to raise boost with a MBC or EBC. These bypass the ECU's fail safes and if you are running lean..well, you won't be for long because the pistons and other internal parts can be severely damaged. 

You may want to read the following link by Ross-Tech regarding Multiplicative and Additive fuel trims:

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Fuel_Trim_Info

BTW, what Fuel pump did come in the APR kit? A Walpro 255 inline or Bosch 044/040? That could have easily been plumbed inline with your current system and should provide more than enough fuel. It won't be an in-tank bolt in...but that doesn't really matter.

Kepp us updated. GL :beer:


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Chickenman35 said:


> Uhmmm.... APR have given you dangerous advice. The stock pump can handle a Stage 1...but a Stage 3 and a GTX2860R? No way IMHO. Especially if the pump is old and tired. As others have mentioned you are likely going to have to jump up to at least a 630cc tune and at least a Walpro 255 pump.
> 
> Your +22 is probably fuel correction factor in percent. ECU is increasing Injector Duty Cycle ( 22% above normal ) trying to feed the engine enough fuel because it is very likely running out fuel volume at high RPM's and boost. That's probably the reason for your 17536 multiplicative code ( Long term fuel trim running lean under Load ). ECU can compensate up to 25% before a hard code and CEL is thrown....but that does NOT mean that everything is OK by any means.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for the counsel.

The pump supplied by APR was exactly like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Pump-VOLKSWAGEN-Golf-Mk-V-3-2-R32-4-motion-Mot-993762052-/231058125956 I think it's some kind of submersible Walbro pump. I ended up selling it on eBay, because it was incompatible with the Quattro fuel tank. And, APR did advise the shop putting in the kit that the OEM Quattro one would be fine or adequate (at least that's what the shop, Imola Motorsports, reported to me).

Another question, however: If the ECU is cutting boost, why does the command pressure show to be 2-3X higher than the turbo is actually outputting? It is requesting 19-21 PSI. If it was cutting boost, wouldn't the command pressure be low, too?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Wait, this is a 180hp motor? So they told you the stock pump would be fine for bigger turbo than their kit, an intake cam, and an intake manifold with a bigger throttle? And all of that at 4 bar.on the stock pump? I think we have found the problem. A quick log of injector pulse converted to duty cycle will tell you if this is the true problem, or a visible fuel pressure gauge during a WOT run.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

What's I'm not getting is that the car supposedly ran fine with this setup and combo of parts. Maybe it's timeline that I'm not getting right, but if it ran well before (with fueling and boost within specs) than something is off. 

With that said, I'm with everybody else, your fuel supply is very suspect. In order of importance: 
- change tuning company
- Fire those mechanics
- log lambda actual
- log injector duty cycle (or at least give us a log of injector "on" time with rpm reference and we'll calculate for you)
- get an inline Bosh 044 (good insurance policy that should have been at the heart of the build)
- get and wideband AFR gauge with alarms (will give you real time warnings of anything out of line with fueling)
- invest in an EGT probe/gauge (another valuable monitoring tool that should be part of every performance turbo build)

It's beyond me that "tuning" companies are selling turbo kits with shaky fuel supply, and techs are so programed to doing repairs that they can't diagnose potential ticking bombs. At least APR isn't responsible if you didn't make sure you got proper fueling, but for a mechanic to not even know to check your actual lambda or IDC, I think you need to put yourself in better hands (or learn how to check these things for yourself). I know that you don't cut corners and cheap out on parts that you put in the car, get an inline pump ASAP and order these monitoring tools that will take you out of the dark with the health of your motor (the lambda and IDC logs are important too).


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

20v master said:


> So they told you the stock pump would be fine for bigger turbo than their kit, an intake cam, and an intake manifold with a bigger throttle?


Not exactly. First, I spoke with Chris Teague, who recommended the Autotech intake cam. At that time, we weren't talking about fuel pumps, larger throttle bodies, or anything else.

Later, while installing the Stage 3+ kit, Imola discovered the supplied Walbro fuel pump wouldn't work, and they (not me) called APR, and allegedly were told that the Quattro pump was adequate, so they put it all back together (except the seal, causing gas to leak all over the place when the tank was filled up, but that's another story already told on another thread).



20v master said:


> And all of that at 4 bar.on the stock pump? I think we have found the problem. A quick log of injector pulse converted to duty cycle will tell you if this is the true problem, or a visible fuel pressure gauge during a WOT run.


I called the tech this morning to get my story straight. He said hooked up a fuel pressure testing kit (the kind that you tape the gauge to the windshield of the car), and he said at WOT, it spiked to 72-73 PSI and tapered to 62-65 PSI (4 bar, which is required by this APR kit). He confirmed that the ECU was applying 22% fuel correction at high RPMs, resulting in that lean code. He doesn't know why the car runs like crap when cold and at idle, except that perhaps I should revert back to the stock throttle body.

[edited for clarity]


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What's I'm not getting is that the car supposedly ran fine with this setup and combo of parts. Maybe it's timeline that I'm not getting right, but if it ran well before (with fueling and boost within specs) than something is off.
> 
> With that said, I'm with everybody else, your fuel supply is very suspect. In order of importance:
> - change tuning company
> ...


Between Chickenman, 20Vmaster, and you, Max, a lot of good suggestions for me to work on myself and/or with my tech (his name is "Ratt" at Nür Technik in Minnesota, and he seems to be very consciensious and capable).

Let me ask this: in lieu of *immediately* purchasing VCDS and/or installing a separate wideband gauge, can I get by with monitoring Lambda output on the LiquidTT? It has both a gauge and graph setting.

I've also used the LiquidTT gauge from time to time to test for timing pull, and since I installed this water/meth system, I get zero to maybe 1 or 2 degrees of timing pull on a hot day at WOT pulls in third gear. I used to get 10 or even 11 degrees when running the APR 93 program on 93 gas!

Also, should I consider installing your Home Depot springs from the other thread you started? Assuming there are no boost leaks (I know that smoke testing won't find every type of leak, so I need to hook up my air compressor & tennis ball and listen for any), could the boost issue simply be a problem with the wastegate actuator? I remember when I bought the GTX2860R, they had to TIG-weld on some bosses to the compressor housing to accommodate the actuator that was supplied with the APR kit. I'll post up some pics later when I locate them.

Also, what is the "Primary fueling" setting in Lemi? Something I should mess with? And, assuming I've got the 550 injectors that APR supplied (whatever brand they are), are there slightly bigger ones I can put in without needing a new tune (e.g., 575cc, 600cc)? And increasing the fuel pressure via an adjustable FPR is not a viable option, correct?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

esoxlucios said:


> Let me ask this: in lieu of *immediately* purchasing VCDS and/or installing a separate wideband gauge, can I get by with monitoring Lambda output on the LiquidTT? It has both a gauge and graph setting.
> 
> I've also used the LiquidTT gauge from time to time to test for timing pull, and since I installed this water/meth system, I get zero to maybe 1 or 2 degrees of timing pull on a hot day at WOT pulls in third gear. I used to get 10 or even 11 degrees when running the APR 93 program on 93 gas!
> .


The LiquidTT gauge looks like it has a function to show AFR in ether Lambda or Standard designation. I would definitely be running it in AFR mode . Since it read off the factory OBD2 data, it should be reasonably accurate. Personally I have no experience with the product so cannot vouch for it's accuracy. Perhaps other can chime in.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Regarding your Mechanics FP pressure testing method. The only proper way to test for adequate Fuel pressure ( especially on Turbo cars ) is on a load cell style chassis Dyno or in real time on a Track ( or long steep hill ). Engine must be at 100% load, at full throttle and monitored throughout the entire RPM range. 

Regarding your mechanics findings. 4 Bar = 58 psi. You have to add boost pressure to that amount and still have a certain amount of overhead...or you will run out of fuel VOLUME and the engine will go lean. Volume is really important. Think of a fire hose at 120 psi vs a garden hose at 120 psi. Both have the same water pressure..but the volume of water coming out of the fire hose is much greater. The fuel injectors act as a variable size hose. 

So boosting at 10 psi you should see an absolute minimum of 68 psi....and you need the pump to have a overhead capability above that to maintain pressure and volume. At 20lbs boost, you need a minimum of 78 psi plus the overhead to maintain volume. And your mechanic measured 62 to 65 psi? Doesn't tell you much does it?

Engine LOAD greatly affects Fuel flow volume. You can free rev an engine to WOT and see adequate fuel pressure. But the engine is at low LOAD, perhaps only 50%. The Injector duty cycle ( think of IDC as being a variable size hydraulic hose ) will also be at a lower percentage. IE: It's a garden hose. Fuel pressure looks OK..so you think you're good. However, under 100% load and full boost ( IE: WOT 3rd gear, steep hill, full boost ) the IDC goes to maximum ( Should be no higher than 80% to 85% ) and your injectors are now acting like a fire hose. The fuel pump cannot maintain this amount of VOLUME, so the pressure drops. Then the engine goes laen as does your wallet.

So to check for adequate FP pressure and volume, the car has to be run at FULL power on a Load Cell Chassis Dyno or a long steep hill, ( Legality and safety are an issue on the road ), while pressure and IDC and AFR are monitored in real time. Did your mechanic do that?

BTW, I'm not knocking him. He may be an excellent mechanic. But just checking the specs in a manual is not good enough when dealing with Race Cars or Modified cars. This can be the the difference between a RACE Mechanic and a regular " Shop " mechanic. The shop mechanic can be a really good mechanic, but is not exposed daily to the extreme stresses that a Race car or Modified cars are under.

Bottom line #1. There are flow charts with pressure and volume for all of the popular fuel pumps for our cars. They plainly show the horsepower level that can be supported by each individual pump. And from experience and these charts, we know that the stock Quattro pump cannot maintain the levels of pressure and volume that are required for the HP level that your engine can attain.

Bottom line #2. You are going to need a better fuel pump ( Bosch 044 is good ). May as well go order one now. Now this may not solve your particular problem right now...but at least it will prevent you from melting holes in your pistons while you are testing. Now that REALLY affects boost levels  :beer: 

Wow...sorry for the Novel. I sometimes get carried away.... :laugh:


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Chickenman35 said:


> Regarding your Mechanics FP pressure testing method. The only proper way to test for adequate Fuel pressure ( especially on Turbo cars ) is on a load cell style chassis Dyno or in real time on a Track ( or long steep hill ). Engine must be at 100% load, at full throttle and monitored throughout the entire RPM range.
> 
> Regarding your mechanics findings. 4 Bar = 58 psi. You have to add boost pressure to that amount and still have a certain amount of overhead...or you will run out of fuel VOLUME and the engine will go lean. Volume is really important. Think of a fire hose at 120 psi vs a garden hose at 120 psi. Both have the same water pressure..but the volume of water coming out of the fire hose is much greater. The fuel injectors act as a variable size hose.
> 
> ...


I'll do it right now. Does the Bosch get installed inline under the hood, preferably? With some kind of insulator sleeve to keep it quiet? And do I leave the OEM pump in place and forget about it? I understand that it has an auxiliary supply pump that is supposed to bring fuel over from the other side of the drive shaft hump.

What about Lemmi "primary fueling" setting, slightly larger injectors, or any changes to the adjustable FPR? And, should I consider changing down to the 91 octane program, in the meantime (while I'm waiting for the pump to arrive)?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Doh..don't know how we all missed this. But from history of your long term trims and excessive spark timing pulls ( 11 to 12 percent ) it's very likely that your car has gone into " soft limp " mode. And that restricts boost to 10 psi and may not throw a CEL ( although you did mention that you had CEL's at various times ).

Disconnect the battery for 15 minutes ( Make sure you have Radio Code if you have an OEM radio ). Then re-connect battery, drive the car around for a while and see if the boost comes back. Note: this doesn't mean that everything is fixed. It just does a re-set on the ECU so that it using the standard Fuel and Timing Maps or calibrations instead of the fail safe ones. Only 1 to 2 degrees of timing pull down from 11 - 12 is another indication of being in " fail safe or " soft limp " mode.

BTW..in answer to a previous question. Don't overly concern yourself with " Requested Boost " vs " Actual boost " while under soft limp mode. Depends on how Bosch wrote the programming, but Requested Boost is an taken from an Input Map using certain sensors ( usually TPS, MAF, MAP, RPM, Gear ). Fail safes can have multiple levels and may be applied on the output side, with no affect to the standard Input Map as far as boost. You could also have a different Maps for soft limp and hard limp. They can get more aggressive in cutting HP levels as the severity of the malfunction increases. IE : Level 1 = timing retard. Level 2 = Timing retard and boost cut via N75. Level 3 = Fuel cut. I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about that. :beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

esoxlucios said:


> I'll do it right now. Does the Bosch get installed inline under the hood, preferably? With some kind of insulator sleeve to keep it quiet? And do I leave the OEM pump in place and forget about it? I understand that it has an auxiliary supply pump that is supposed to bring fuel over from the other side of the drive shaft hump.
> 
> What about Lemmi "primary fueling" setting, slightly larger injectors, or any changes to the adjustable FPR? And, should I consider changing down to the 91 octane program, in the meantime (while I'm waiting for the pump to arrive)?


Yes you can leave the OEM pump in place, in fact it is recommended. Electric full pumps are designed to be a " Pusher " pump, so if you mount one up front you need the stock intank pump to act as a scavenge pump to supply the new pump.

Check out USRT fueling solutions. They may have an In tank solution for you. Give Scott a call. Don't forget the HD relay kits!!

http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10_45

034 Motorsports also has various In-Tank and Inline solutions.

http://store.034motorsport.com/products/fuel-injection-solutions/fuel-pumps.html 

Yes, it would be a good idea to temporarily reset the program to 91 Octane just to be on the safe side. Disconnect the battery as I suggested to reset ECU and clear any possible " soft limp " mode. Then do your logging at 91 Octane mode till you get your new pump. Once the new pump is in, then you can start serious tuning.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

20v master said:


> (Snip)I see this repeated a lot, but don't think it's true. There is never a period where the ECU isn't "learning," aka adapting. Adaptation happens all the time, and can be seen in block 033 once the o2 sensors are up to temp.


While the ECU is constantly " learning, it can take a long time for a normal Map to be restored. Particularly if you have received a bad tank of gas. It could take hundreds of miles of driving. Insufficient fuel delivery due to a weak fuel pump and a BT tune? Engine could stay in " soft limp " forever due to long term fuel trims being lean or knock detection.

Disconnecting the battery instantly resets the ECU to the Baseline mode and the ECU adapts from there. Of course if you still have a bad tank of fuel ( or insufficient fuel delivery for example ) then the ECU will eventually go back into " soft limp" mode. The battery disconnect is just a quick way to see if you are in " soft limp".

Pretyy much universal strategy used by all ECU mfg's. It's the Ctrl-Alt-Delete for cars. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

A few quick answers and pointers:

- inline high flow pump goes under the hood or under the the chassis and is used in conjunction with the intank pump (which becomes a supply/feed at this point). Bosh 044 is recommended because of stellar performance and reliability in the industry (much better than the somewhat comparable Walbro 255). 

- Get VCDS, and a real time wideband gauge with alarms. The sampling rate with VCDS or the liquid TT is too slow for real time use. You also need alarms to alert you of rich lean conditions on the fly before it's too late. Same thing with EGT, but you can worry about adding that to your monitoring later.

- Don't add the external springs. Get sorted first before introducing new variables that may make diagnostic harder (may also mask ECU triggered limp by raising the boost achieved at wastegate pressure).


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Get . . . a real time wideband gauge with alarms. The sampling rate with VCDS or the liquid TT is too slow for real time use. You also need alarms to alert you of rich lean conditions on the fly before it's too late.


Max, do you have a favorite wideband gauge with alarms that's suitable for our cars? 

Unfortunately, I don't have any more real estate in the car for more gauges. I've got a turbo and meth-flow gauges in the Osir ashtray pod, and I have the Liquid TT atop the dashboard (I didn't want to use any of the air vents for gauges). I'm trying to avoid having the cockpit of the car resemble a Kenworth truck or Boeing 767.


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

You need a Euro dash...


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

This is one reason the Liquid doesn't appeal to me: it can't be logged. A simple log in VAG COM of injector pulse at WOT has to be converted to injector duty cycle (IDC) to know if you are running low on fuel capability (whether it is injector, pump, rail that can't flow, etc). Can you even see fuel trims in a Liquid? I can see them in the Android Torque app, but I've never seen anyone mention if Liquid displays them. What they are has been discussed in this thread, but we need to know what they are. As for widebands, I use a Zeitronix due to it's LCD display showing AFR, EGT, and boost, and it all being loggable by rpm with high sampling rate. It's no substitute for VAG COM, but it adds a lot of data to the mix. Max has had issues with his Innovative recently, so not sure if he has a recommendation. 

Chickenman, I still don't quite believe all of that. Yes, it forces the ECU to start from scratch and recalculate trims on many things, more than just fuel trims for example. Here's the catch, and you yourself said it, that unless you change something hardware wise, it's going to adapt back to the same state as it was before you disconnected the battery. It's the same thing as clearing codes in VAG COM. The fuel trims then go right back to where they were unless you adjust MAF size, fuel pressure, or some other element that allows a shift in running state of the engine. So I'm not sure how it will help here other than he doesn't have a VAG COM. Can't Liquid clear codes too?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

20v master said:


> Chickenman, I still don't quite believe all of that. Yes, it forces the ECU to start from scratch and recalculate trims on many things, more than just fuel trims for example. Here's the catch, and you yourself said it, that unless you change something hardware wise, it's going to adapt back to the same state as it was before you disconnected the battery. It's the same thing as clearing codes in VAG COM. The fuel trims then go right back to where they were unless you adjust MAF size, fuel pressure, or some other element that allows a shift in running state of the engine. So I'm not sure how it will help here other than he doesn't have a VAG COM. Can't Liquid clear codes too?


What's not to believe? A battery disconnect does a reset. You know that's true and just said so. OP does not have a VAG-COM. That's why I suggested it. It's just a down and dirty quick check to *see if you're in soft limp *. I said if the hardware problem still exists then it's going to adapt back. I made no other claims. What's the problem? :wave:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm not a fan of Innovate either. Personal experience and too many reports of failures and hassles with warranties. Zeitronix or AEM both just plain work :thumbup:


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

20v master said:


> Can you even see fuel trims in a Liquid? I can see them in the Android Torque app, but I've never seen anyone mention if Liquid displays them. What they are has been discussed in this thread, but we need to know what they are. As for widebands, I use a Zeitronix due to it's LCD display showing AFR, EGT, and boost, and it all being loggable by rpm with high sampling rate. It's no substitute for VAG COM, but it adds a lot of data to the mix. . . Can't Liquid clear codes too?


Liquid shows only air-to-fuel ratio expressed as lambda (where 1.0 is stoichiometric, I guess). Liquid does allow clearing of CEL codes (but not airbag light resets or others). I'll check out the Zeitronix (thanks!)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

My recommendation is either the zeitronix reader (high end), or Auber Instrument's multi meter (low end in pricing but equally as good in function and quality). I was a long time user of Innovate, but would not recommend them to others in the vag community, their stuff is very sensitive to voltage fluctuations and die in a hurry even with the recommended fuse in place. With both choices I mentioned, one gauge can do pressure, and other 0-5v signals like Lambda and EGT, so you won't be running out space in the cockpit since one reader can read and display several sensors. 

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/LCD/LCD.shtml
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_21&products_id=19


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

Such a wealth of information in this forum and post, yet no one asked the obvious question. If you had the money and resources to buy a turbo kit and pay a shop to install it, why in gods name are you running APR ?

Sent from my M2105 using Tapatalk


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

I may have found my turbo boost problem.

I removed the APR turbo intake cross pipe (near the back of the motor, by the firewall, just past the coil packs) in order to inspect the wastegate. It is really, really difficult to see or get at anything back there, even with a flashlight and mirror (the APR exhaust manifold is in the way).

Reaching down there, I was able to feel a single nut spinning freely on the actuator arm. It had spun itself all the way toward the vacuum actuator. I assume this nut is suppose to lock snug against the adjustment nut, which I could not reach with my fingers or see.

Assuming the locking nut had backed out, too, would that result in the above-described boosting problems?

Also, because of the difficult in actually seeing the actuator, I can't tell if it is something that I can install the spring mod (when the time comes to do so). I was able to snap a picture of a sticker on it (below). Do these part numbers mean anything to anyone? Is this still eligible for the spring mod?










I ordered the Bosch 044, as you all recommended, and am getting the registered $99 version of VCDS-lite.

Thank you, again, and I'll keep the thread updated. I have an app't for next week to have the shop check and adjust the actuator arm to whatever the APR-specified cracking pressure is.

[edited: forgot to add photo; and answered my own question re: fittings]


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## lite1979 (Sep 9, 2005)

You might get a better picture of things from below, but yes, having a loose connecting rod between the actuator and the wastegate will certainly cause boost problems.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Wastegate was cracking at 2 PSI. Adjusted and secured to crack at 10 PSI. With N75 J valve, now boosts to 25 PSI and settles at 22. Also, using Lemmi, I increased Primary Fueling and reduced trim from +22% to +2.3%. Timing pull is no more than an occasional 2 degrees on this cylinder or that. (Bought VCDS Lite and logged) Bosch 044 is on the way, so Ill go easy until then.


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## lite1979 (Sep 9, 2005)

Great news! Thanks for the update.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Unfortunately, still getting the rich idle error and misfires. There's no way that I know of to adjust idle AFR with Lemmi, and increasing the Primary Fueling only made it worse (about -9% additive-trim). Don't take me seriously, but I thought of opening up an intake manifold leak with a check valve (so that it sucks in vacuum, but doesn't leak boost) to correct the rich idle & misfires. Not sure what else to do!


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## lite1979 (Sep 9, 2005)

This is out of left field, but could you do a throttle body adaptation?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

> The crappy idle has been around ever since the APR Stage 3+ kit was installed. So much was done all at once (valves, intercooler, tune, etc.), that I can think of no way to attribute to any one item.


That is a very revealing quote. Idle quality is affected very much by injector spray pattern, especially with larger injectors. What injectors are supplied with the APR Stage 3 kit? 

Genesis II injectors may be in the cards for you.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Honestly, if all the parts are tip-top (especially the injectors, as Chickenman mentioned) you need a new tune, APR was never great but with essentially no more 1.8T support and new parts, Eurodyne or Gonzo would be your best bet. If you let either know exactly what you have you'll have a car that runs better as soon as its flashed, and then you can tweak from there as necessary. 

Question: how did the car run before all the upgrades? Was it awesome, or always a little lacking?


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

lite1979 said:


> This is out of left field, but could you do a throttle body adaptation?


Yeah, have done many times (no effect). (The LiquidTT has an app for that!)


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Honestly, if all the parts are tip-top (especially the injectors, as Chickenman mentioned) you need a new tune, APR was never great but with essentially no more 1.8T support and new parts, Eurodyne or Gonzo would be your best bet. If you let either know exactly what you have you'll have a car that runs better as soon as its flashed, and then you can tweak from there as necessary.
> 
> Question: how did the car run before all the upgrades? Was it awesome, or always a little lacking?


Before the upgrades, it was just a 180hp Quattro —overall anemic, although the K03s spooled up quickly.

I'll find out about the injectors. I had that thought at some point in the past, but because they're so expensive, I wasn't keen on randomly replacing them just to see if the car ran better (if it doesn't, I have a set of used injectors worth only half of what I just paid).


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Holy crap, this Bosch 044 is loud! This pump is actually used in OEM applications? My car now sounds like a commercial jet on the runway awaiting permission to depart. What do you all do, if anything, to quiet it down? I have it mounted in the engine bay, and I adhered the pump mount using silicone to help dampen it. I've read about people putting sleeves over it (which seems impossible due to the mount I have), but doesn't the pump produce heat and need to breath? I'm not sure that any sleeve could make this quiet!

Edit: I've got a question: Could I use the trigger wire for the water/meth solenoid to turn on the Bosch 044 via a relay so that it's only on when boost reaches the level I've set? I.e., since the stock TT Quattro pump and Bosch are in series, would the stock pump be able to push fuel through the deactivated Bosch at < 4psi-boost? If the Bosch turns on only during boost, I won't hear it anyway due to the sound of the motor & exhaust.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Double isolate it. Make a mounting plate out of aluminum. ABS, Plywood...whatever. Then mount that plate with some rubber isolating blocks. MSD makes some for isolating Ignition boxes.

BTW... Take a picture of your current mounting. Most electrical pumps are mounted in rubber sleeves of some sort. Some are better than others. 

Question about stock pump pushing through Bosch 044 when switched off. No... Not a good idea.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

As Richard stated in his post, it's not advisable to run with the inline switched off (mostly because it's upstream of the factory pump). Doing so will stress the factory pump because it will have to work extra hard to overcome the additional restriction created by the inline pump when it's not powered. 

As far as insulation, the 044 does not come with any insulation, so it will be very loud if left as is. You could use your own insulating foam sleeve or get a walbro one to use with it. With the insulating sleeve, the noise will be cut down in half and bearable. There is no concern with heat dissipation with the added insulating sleeve, so insulate as much as you want. A double sleeved pump with insulation at both ends of the cylindrical pump would be very quiet (you can cut and glue the same material on the ends with just a hole for the fuel lines).


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. I have it running all the time. It's quieted down slightly due to air in the system at first (cavitation), but is still very loud and annoying. I will post a picture of the installation in shortly. I will research sleeving it, too.


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