# mk3 bag help



## cgwblowout (Feb 2, 2010)

hey all
ok so here is what i would like to know. what front set up will go the lowest in a mk3 golf. i would like to set the sub frame on the ground. i have had mini trucks. so i know about air. my rear is going to be a on off set up. thanx ahead of time guys.


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

It's more about what you're willing to cut and what wheel/tire size your running..

Getting a mk3 to lay frame, while easy in theory, is not that easy. I've notched for tie rods and axle, i'm on 195-45's and i'm still about 1/2" from the ground. 

Air Lift and Bag Yard are the two air struts on the market for mk3's. Mason-Tech also makes, or used to make, air struts for these cars, but i'd avoid them personally.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

there's a general saying that bagyards go lower. i have them, i love them but i personally do not see it as lower. as reynolds said, it's the amount of cutting you are willing to partake to get it to lay. 

i recall afazz mentioning; getting it lower 5 inches is the easy part, it's last couple of mm's thats the hardest :laugh: (not in verbatim)


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## cgwblowout (Feb 2, 2010)

:laugh: coming from mins im not scared to cut stuff lol. i was planing on notch,tie rod flip and ball joint. i was looking into the air lifts i just didnt know if one wound go lower out of the box. less work in the long run. i have never played with strut bags so idk. :banghead:


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

if there is a difference it's a tolerable one. i haven't compared lengths of the struts themselves. if you're not afraid to cut, you will get to the ground :beer: --- again, most of us have the basics --- notch for the axle, tierods or the flip kit... i've seen one with modified strut mounts and he lays and was wondering if this is key to framing. :thumbup:


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## cgwblowout (Feb 2, 2010)

so air lifts are pretty good? the rear will be re6 slam bags and custom mounts


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

if it's for a mk3 you need chapman style rear struts. :thumbup:

i have airlift rears and i will not complain. quality is top notch. :thumbup:


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## cgwblowout (Feb 2, 2010)

my rear up is going to be a cantilever set up. idk if you know what they are pretty much a seasaw. i have done them in trucks b4 i will post pix when i start it.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

i see. modified rear beam? i assume?


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## Jayy (Jun 15, 2008)

nap83 said:


> i've seen one with modified strut mounts and he lays and was wondering if this is key to framing. :thumbup:


im tired of mine not laying 

care to elaborate


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

makes the struts shorter since it sits higher on the strut tower.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

I can't comment on the struts since I'm not on air, but there are only a few "secrets" needed to lay a mk3 on 205/40/16. Get PMW balljoint extenders and tie rod flip if you have a 2.0. You can maybe lay frame by cutting stuff up, but it's far easier to just extend the balljoints and flip the tie rods. You should be able to lay on 205/40/16 with one notch for the passenger axle. If you want to drive low you may need shortened axles. Watch for axle clearance on the rear engine mount bracket. Get a small-diameter aftermarket axle for the passenger side if you haven't already, this helps clearance problems. You shouldn't need a tie rod notch with the flip.

http://www.pmwltd.com/products.php

Oldskool_james raised his strut towers, if you have problems with the struts holding you up this is an option.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4732962-Mk3-Stance-Thread/page208&highlight=strut+towers

This dude built a nice cantilever setup in the rear.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4602434

I'm not sure if either Bagyard or Airlift struts will lay frame right out of the box. I've talked to a few people that had problems laying frame even with all the other proper mods.

For what it's worth, my front setup is:
-Shortened DS axle 0.2"
-Shortened PS axle around .375"
-PMW balljoint extenders
-Homemade tie rod flip, before the PMW stuff was available, using rod ends. 
-High-misalignment spherical bearing control arm bushings. I used a FK HIN-10T bearings, similar to Aurora HAB-10T
-Stock mk3 2.0 balljoints, control arms, tie rods, and forward LCA bushings.
-small diameter aftermarket passenger side axle. I think Velcon is the brand.
-stock rear motor mount bracket - rubs a little
-Passenger axle notch, drivers axle notch, two small tie rod notches.
-Wheel tubs
-Custom hydraulic lift struts based on shortened Koni 8610-1436 with GC camber plates and Eibach springs.
-Drives and drags on the frame with 205/40/17 no problem. It should lay with 215/35/18 but may not roll. 

That's it, no secrets. Just time and money! 










P.S. you can see the control arm bearings there


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Oh and the early style strut mounts are shorter. Make sure you use the proper nuts on top! Doug shortened his. This voids the Bagyard warranty, and he still had problems laying.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4408733


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

Afazz said:


> -Shortened DS axle 0.2"
> -Shortened PS axle around .375"


why not just run mk2 driveshafts? not a lot of difference in driveshaft length


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

They're a lot shorter, too short in most cases. I don't have exact measurements, but they're around a full inch shorter than mk3 2.0 axles. Mk2 tie rods and control arems are around 1" shorter than the mk3 stuff, and the mk2 strut towers are 1" narrower too. 

Here are some more related threads:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4359390

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4870464-MK2-Control-Arms-Axles-Tie-Rods-on-MK3


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## JBGITTY (Apr 9, 2002)

Afazz said:


> It should lay with 215/35/18 but may not roll.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

thanks for contributing mr. anthony. oh and the pm you sent me explaining things about my tierods is saved in pdf format in my laptop for future use :laugh:


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

Afazz said:


> Oh and the early style strut mounts are shorter. Make sure you use the proper nuts on top! Doug shortened his. This voids the Bagyard warranty, and he still had problems laying.
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4408733


thanks for the input :thumbup:, but i think it'll solve this. at least that's my first guess since i'm so close. 










thats my only set back is actually voiding the warranty, which i do not want.

you mentioned a driver's side axle notch... doesn't that clear already when dumped? this may be what we're looking for fellas


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

I'm also on 17s, and I only needed a little baby notch for the drivers side. I would be really surprised if that was holding you up. 










Another thing you can try is loosening and re-tightening the front forward lower control arm mounting bolts at a lower ride height. The bushings could be holding you up a little bit, and probably the front-rear bushing is all bound up. Those both use stretch bolts though, it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace them if you go loosening and tightening things.

Of course make sure the strut isn't running out of travel. Unplug the airline and jack under the control arm, you should be able to "feel" what and when things start holding you up.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

brand new control arms... the method you mentioned is what i did... i need to inspect more. but i do feel the strut itself is holding me up. but what do i know? hahaha.


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

good info for sure but i'm still stumped on what's holding me up.


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## cgwblowout (Feb 2, 2010)

lots of good info in here. lets keep it up ill post what i find up. im thinking about making my own front struts.:screwy::thumbup:


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## cgwblowout (Feb 2, 2010)

so i got everthing in besides front struts. i just started renting a shop with my buddy for 175 a month. i will be moving in the first of the month. so the build will start pretty soon.:laugh:


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

Afazz said:


> They're a lot shorter, too short in most cases. I don't have exact measurements, but they're around a full inch shorter than mk3 2.0 axles. Mk2 tie rods and control arems are around 1" shorter than the mk3 stuff, and the mk2 strut towers are 1" narrower too.


hmm wonder if the mk3 cv joints are wider than mk2 joints? i just picked up a set of oem mk3 driveaxles from a wrecking yard and installed the cv joints onto a set of mk2 shafts. they were less than half an inch difference on the pass side shaft and even less than that on the drivers side


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

pics... or it didn't happen :thumbup:


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

when i was static, i was running a scirocco 16v axle on my driver side to help with the binding. it got rid of the binding but the car pull a little to the left on acceleration just cause the axle was thaaaaat much shorter, and obviously a little too short. when i put thr air in, i went back to the stock axle and just drive around sky high.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

i drove sky high for the first 2 weeks after getting it installed (so dang comfy) but i'm on a super dumped phase for the past week... the new control arms seem to have eased down the binding, i don't feel it as much. the scirroco 16v axle seems like a grand idea...


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## mk3_vws (Oct 24, 2007)

nap83 said:


> i drove sky high for the first 2 weeks after getting it installed (so dang comfy) but i'm on a super dumped phase for the past week... the new control arms seem to have eased down the binding, i don't feel it as much. the scirroco 16v axle seems like a grand idea...


im only wondering if the axle will be too short when aired up


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

your right.


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## gianni versace (Oct 11, 2009)

guys, you need to modify the strut mount like hyphytrain203 and notch for tie rods and axle.
ive seen with my own eyes 3 mk3s lay frame on this formula. 2 on BY supremes and 1 on BOC.

at the same time ive heard of people doing this and not laying. everybody who tells me they cant lay are on airlift or bombers. i have a bunch of wild theories like by supremes will lay easier than bombers no matter what ORT says. Airlift will not go as low as BY supremes either. Ive heard alot of opposing views but i have to stick with what ive seen in person. 

most Airlift mk3's wont lay on semi aggressive offsets, yet ive seen people get lower on 17x9's on supremes that people with 16x7.5 and even 15's on airlift.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

gianni; i've never put that in that equation... i didn't think about the fact that dubbint's setup consists of supremes and not bombers with modified struts.

no cigar


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

that's where i'm at.. Sometime i get lucky and lay frame in a parking spot where the asphalt is slightly humped, but that's cheating.


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

At 0psi in the front, my car will still rolling/drive (though the axles bind). I'm thinking it's either the strut itself (air lift) or the control arm is binding on something and i can't see it.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Which three, besides DubbinT, are laying frame in a mk3 on air?


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4408733

i did this tonight and the car is a little lower, but definitely still not touching the ground.

i'm on airlift struts, front and rear, with an axle notch on the passenger side, and tie rod notches on both sides. wheels up front are 8.5 et14 and yeah the tires are touching the fenders but thats definitely not what is holding me up.



Afazz said:


> Which three, besides DubbinT, are laying frame in a mk3 on air?


i'd like to know as well. only 2 i know of were DubbinT and james in england but he has raised towers as well as all 3 frame notches, control arm notches, and a notch in the motor mount on the passenger side.


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## gianni versace (Oct 11, 2009)

Afazz said:


> Which three, besides DubbinT, are laying frame in a mk3 on air?


this car lays frame on 16's


Paul q's old jetta.( im sure there are better pics but its all i have)









i cant for the life of me remember the other guys name since he doesnt go on the forums

and if im not mistaken charmander did it. is it really that uncommon?


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

gianni versace said:


> this car lays frame on 16's


those are 17's.

and yeah, i forgot about paul's old jetta. and idk if charmander layed frame or not. he should chime in.


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## gianni versace (Oct 11, 2009)

dehate. said:


> those are 17's.
> 
> and yeah, i forgot about paul's old jetta. and idk if charmander layed frame or not. he should chime in.


17x9 up front and if it werent for the tire hitting fender it would go lower.

this guys got a bmw now so he doesnt frequent here as much but hopefully he chimes in.
looks like he lays


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

he lays.


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

Afazz said:


> Which three, besides DubbinT, are laying frame in a mk3 on air?


tagged dreams _(*hoping he chimes in here as well)_ also lays frame along with james oldskool --- both have raised strut towers. whats odd to me is the fact that james has supremes and still needed the good ole' raised strut tower trick to lay. 

http://itsalmosttime.co.uk/blog/post/index/403/Bit-of-a-downer

also the cars mentioned above by gianni and charmander.


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## gianni versace (Oct 11, 2009)

might be wrong but europeans cant get supreme shorties like we get here because of some safety stuff


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

james definitely had supremes. i almost bought them from him.


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## slamdIam (Nov 27, 2010)

hey guys got a new name just letting everone know. just moved in to the new shop. pic will come soon it was alot of work. the website will be up by the end of the week so i will post up a link for you guys. i can pretty much promiss the lowwest prices for air so hit me up.:laugh:


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

dehate. said:


> james definitely had supremes. i almost bought them from him.




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def shorties. heard he's switching to bombers too.


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## tageddreams (Nov 3, 2008)

Afazz said:


> Which three, besides DubbinT, are laying frame in a mk3 on air?


im damn close in my black car, but now the setup is moved into another car(new car doesn't even come close for some reason, 3 notches and raised motor to avoid the axle hitting the mount, cause it was) as the black car awaits bag yards for the front, and this may solve my problem, at least i would hope so with raised towers


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## tageddreams (Nov 3, 2008)

nap83 said:


> tagged dreams _(*hoping he chimes in here as well)_ also lays frame along with james oldskool --- both have raised strut towers. whats odd to me is the fact that james has supremes and still needed the good ole' raised strut tower trick to lay.
> 
> http://itsalmosttime.co.uk/blog/post/index/403/Bit-of-a-downer
> 
> also the cars mentioned above by gianni and charmander.


and i used an aero on coil for my setup, if anyone was curious

and im also chasing not even a mm, st driving yes i can lay no matter what, but a very flat surface like a garage floor i dont

going with bag yards now for the front, should solve my problem, my issue now is i cant sping the aero bag far enough down with out hitting the wheel, had to run a 9 up front to be cool, haha

however my rat doesn't even come close, has the black cars old setup, same notch work done to both cars, minus the raised towers on the rat, however the bag is spun real far down the strut now, and still nothing looks like the control arms holding me up now by binding on the subframe??


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## Charmander (Jul 2, 2006)

i


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## slamdIam (Nov 27, 2010)

can one of you guys that has bags laying around let me know how tall the bag and strut is at full lift and full drop? i got a little something cooking up in my head.:thumbup:


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## Charmander (Jul 2, 2006)

^you're not supposed to pressurize a bag without a load on it, so this is hard to do.


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## slamdIam (Nov 27, 2010)

yes know this. i was just asking for drop more than anything.


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

i'm bumping this.










ok. here's where im at now. i can literally stick a small zip tie under my subframe and nothing more. i'm really getting pissed off though that the car isnt completely laying out.

here's what i have done:
-air lift struts front and rear
-cut early style bushings ( like these... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4408733 )
-frame is notched for axle on the passenger side
-frame is notched for tie rods on both sides
-rear motor mount bracket is notched
-all those notches are clearing.
-control arms are notched in 4 places (where they were hitting the subframe and the body of the car)

in case you're wondering, the wheels are 16x8 et17 and 16x9 et27.

i would think its the struts bottoming out, but i jacked the car up and took the strut bushings out completely (i would obviously never drive the car like that) and just put the bag up in the tower so it sat higher (like i had raise towers or something) and aired it out and it still didnt lay, so i know its not the struts holding me up.

i can push down on the fender though and watch/hear the car lay frame. it's literally riiiiight there, but still not good enough for me.

my last guess is that the control arm bushings is the problem. when i notched the motor mount bracket and put in new ball joints and tie rod ends on friday, i put in brand new OEM control arms with stock bushings. like i said, before i put them in, i cut them down where they were hitting the subframe and body of the car. but anyways, i think the control arm bushings are just so new that they arent flexing enough to let the control arm angle any more than it is. i know at one point, santi's car (blue mk4 jetta) was laying out and then he replaced his control arm bushings and it didnt lay out any more or something like that. in my opinion, this is my last option/guess, because there is literally nothing else holding me up.

any ideas guys?


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Are you running VR or 2.0 spindles and control arms? If you have 2.0 stuff you can get balljoint extenders and tie rod flip.


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

Afazz said:


> Are you running VR or 2.0 spindles and control arms? If you have 2.0 stuff you can get balljoint extenders and tie rod flip.


all 2.0 stuff. i actually have the tie rod flip kit sitting in the garage but i never put it in since i just notched for them and i've never had the money for the balljoint enxtenders. you think that would help? i dont see how it would?


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Yeah it will surely help. It flattens out both the control arm and tie rod, which eliminates all the binding in the tie rod ends, balljoints, and inner bushings. It also gives more clearance between the control arm and subframe, you probably don't even need to trim it to lay on 16s. I believe all the cars laying frame have PMW balljoint extenders and tie rod flip. I have them, and lay frame on 17s with no control arm trimming. I have little wee baby tie rod notches, but they're only about 3/8" deep. If you're positive the struts are short enough - which sounds like you proved with your test - and the axles have room, there isn't really much else that can hold you up.


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## dehate. (Oct 27, 2008)

damn, yeah i obviously wasnt thinking. well i have the tie rod flip kit, so i guess once i get some money, i'll be ordering those ball joint extenders. i'm pretty sure the only thing holding me up is the stress on those inner control arm bushings. and i wish i would have known/thought about this before i hacked my control arms, haha. actually, they arent cut that much. just trimmed the lips around the edges. thanks though afazz. you always got the answers.


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