# A3 < S3 < S3plus < RS3



## p.r.walker (May 31, 2000)

If you got a new 2015 S3, how upset would you be if AoA brings over an S3 plus with 360-375 or an RS3 @ 425-450, 2 years later?

I'm sure it comes down to cost, as the jump from the 1.8 to 2.0 is $3k (but also adds AWD), and the rumored jump to an S3 is $5900. Add another $5900 and an S3 Plus starts at $47.1, a few hundred under a base CLA AMG. Add another $10k for an RS3 starts just under $60 undercutting a BMW M3.

Does this make you consider leasing an S3? Or waiting?


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## Zorro83 (Sep 10, 2011)

I wouldn't be mad cause the S3 with the options I have in mind is already at my max budget. Sure it's always fun to have the 'top-dog' but in super conservative Ottawa even the S3 will be incredibly rare. Now MTL or TO is a different story.


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## MaX PL (Apr 10, 2006)

I really wouldn't care if the S3 Plus was released in 2 years, but I also don't think that it will come to the U.S.

As for the RS3, I don't expect that in 2 years so don't care.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Don't care. The S3 is already going to be pushing the limits of what's practical for a street car. If I were at a point in my life that I could spend $60,000+ on a toy, well... still wouldn't care. That's where I find a Cayman R.

I'm having a difficult enough time setting aside my cheapassedness long enough to buy the S3 as it is.

Anyway, I can't see them finding a business case for all three cars in the US. Two, sure- but not three. And I wouldn't expect those two to end up being S3+ and RS3, as that arrangement would surely outclass the S4, probably even as it moves into B9 form.

I absolutely think the power war is getting to its end. It's time to start working more on weight than raw power, IMO.


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

Dan Halen said:


> I absolutely think the power war is getting to its end. It's time to start working more on weight than raw power, IMO.


+1

Agreed. Entirely different animal that it is, and regardless the complexity and heat they're taking, but that's why Ford went to all aluminum on the F-150. Weight savings. If 700 pounds off a pick up truck makes a difference, imagine an S3 with 290hp and 200 pounds less weight.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

Dan Halen said:


> Don't care. The S3 is already going to be pushing the limits of what's practical for a street car. If I were at a point in my life that I could spend $60,000+ on a toy, well... still wouldn't care. That's where I find a Cayman R.
> 
> I'm having a difficult enough time setting aside my cheapassedness long enough to buy the S3 as it is.
> 
> ...


This. Prestige S3 will be the max of my budget, and to be honest this car stock will be more than enough for real world driving. And as I'll modify this car, it'll be more than I need in the end.


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## anti suv (Sep 26, 2013)

p.r.walker said:


> If you got a new 2015 S3, how upset would you be if AoA brings over an S3 plus with 360-375 or an RS3 @ 425-450, 2 years later?
> 
> I'm sure it comes down to cost, as the jump from the 1.8 to 2.0 is $3k (but also adds AWD), and the rumored jump to an S3 is $5900. Add another $5900 and an S3 Plus starts at $47.1, a few hundred under a base CLA AMG. Add another $10k for an RS3 starts just under $60 undercutting a BMW M3.
> 
> Does this make you consider leasing an S3? Or waiting?


I wouldn't be upset. It would be great if we had the demand here to get the top models. I dont think we will have an S3+ and a RS3 at the same time. Probably just one or the other. I would definitely buy an S3+/RS3. However, I don't think and RS3 would be 400+ hp. I think it the top level 3 would be more around 360-380ish. I also don't think it would be $60k. I would expect about $50k maybe a little lower. Here is an exert from an old post of mine where I got my guess for an RS3 price: 

"The TTS was around $48,700 and the TTRS around $57,200. Thats ~17.5% increase for the TTRS over the TTS. I would think a similar percent increase for a RS3 over an S3 would be a reasonable assumption. Amusing an S3 is around $40,000 then adding 17.5% would put the RS3 around $47,000."


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## chiphead (May 12, 2011)

Dan Halen said:


> Don't care. The S3 is already going to be pushing the limits of what's practical for a street car. If I were at a point in my life that I could spend $60,000+ on a toy, well... still wouldn't care. That's where I find a Cayman R.
> 
> I'm having a difficult enough time setting aside my cheapassedness long enough to buy the S3 as it is.
> 
> ...


Amen brutha


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## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

The 2.0t A3 with a downpipe and tune is likely plenty for me. At this stage in my life I'd be more upset if they decided to bring a sportback or avant A3. With an infant and a toddler, I'll likely do a short term lease then move up to a larger car as the kids get bigger (maybe a B9 depending on how the MLB platform shapes up, it's anticipated that an Avant and Allroad will be available about a year after its late 2014 release). But, a downpipe/tune don't jive with leasing so I may go the S3 route.


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## clemster (Sep 30, 2008)

*no such thing as too much power*

Seriously, I don't know what half of you are even going on about. Cars in the US are already about half price compared to what we pay in Oz. If I could get an S3 as cheap as you can in the states, I would buy it and flip it as soon as the S3+ comes out. 

Oh, and by the way, you will see the + by the end of the year, no question, RS3 by middle of next. This is a war gentlemen, and Audi are not going to lose it to BMW or Merc or anyone else for that matter. We already know that the 380hp S3+ engine will be going into a Golf R Evo. This is about technical dominance, who can build the biggest numbers from a four. I say its a great time to be a petrol head. 

As for the RS3, that will be something special, but you will pay for it. If the S3+ is going to have 380hp, then the RS3 will have at the least 420hp and well over 500 nm of torque (not sure what that is in your measurement but its a hell of a lot). As for whether both of the top models hit the US shores, probably not, you seem to miss out of some special cars even though you have a huge market, I expect Oz will see both of the top models. 

From where I sit, its a very bright future.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Because the price of cars in Australia has so much bearing on what we are personally willing to pay for a car in the US...


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## EZ (Jun 22, 1999)

Chimera said:


> With an infant and a toddler, I'll likely do a short term lease then move up to a larger car as the kids get bigger...


I've found it the opposite actually. With car seats (especially rear-facing), strollers, diaper bags, etc., you need the larger vehicle earlier on. Now that mine are six and done with all that stuff, it's no longer a challenge hauling them anywhere.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Dan Halen said:


> Because the price of cars in Australia has so much bearing on what we are personally willing to pay for a car in the US...


X2. When I find out what people pay for hotel rooms in Hong Kong it doesn't change what I am willing to pay on my next vacation.

I am not going to worry too much about what might come out years from now, if I did I would probably never buy a new car as there are always new cars around the corner. Worst case, by the car you want, wait a couple of years and buy another car.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

dmorrow said:


> X2. When I find out what people pay for hotel rooms in Hong Kong it doesn't change what I am willing to pay on my next vacation.
> 
> I am not going to worry too much about what might come out years from now, if I did I would probably never buy a new car as there are always new cars around the corner. Worst case, by the car you want, wait a couple of years and buy another car.


:thumbup:


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## Maitre Absolut (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't believe the "Plus" notion exists here....the NA spec TT-RS was already EU's "plus" version

50k is already alot for a "tuned version" of an entry level 4cyl 2.0T, i don't care if they made one with 500HP.

would pay for Rs3 though as long as it had a more unique engine (2.5T, 3.0T)


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

Maitre Absolut said:


> 50k is already alot for a "tuned version" of an entry level 4cyl 2.0T, i don't care if they made one with 500HP.
> 
> would pay for Rs3 though as long as it had a more unique engine (2.5T, 3.0T)


I agree, the more highly tuned version of the same 2.0T doesn't interest me. I can do that on my own for a lot cheaper (APR etc.).

The RS3 with a 2.5T on the other hand, I'll be all over that!


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## codewhore (Oct 22, 2006)

Maitre Absolut said:


> I don't believe the "Plus" notion exists here....the NA spec TT-RS was already EU's "plus" version
> 
> 50k is already alot for a "tuned version" of an entry level 4cyl 2.0T, i don't care if they made one with 500HP.
> 
> would pay for Rs3 though as long as it had a more unique engine (2.5T, 3.0T)


The R8 has a plus model here in Canada so they might be bringing that nomenclature to the brand here. 

The rumor for the Golf RS (S3?) looks to be a 6cyl turbo...we'll see.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...s-be-the-engine-in-the-upcoming-Golf-RS-R-evo


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## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Do we consider S models as true competitors to the AMG and 'true' M cars?

If not, is the S+ or the RS intended to be the direct competitor?

One way or the other, one of these needs to be aimed at AMG/M


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

To me, Audi has always had an indirect competitor in the "S" cars. A is to 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 and CLA/C/E/S/GLK/G/ML as RS is to M and AMG, IMO. With BMW coming out with the Mxxxi cars, that's S competition. I don't really see a mid-line competitor from Mercedes as it stands. With BMW only now coming with a relative "S" equivalent, Audi's been the only game in town at that level. Of course, their M-equivalent RS offerings are slow to start here, so I think they've probably done what they can to make S competitive with M.


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## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

I am disappointed in the lack of performance available in the S3. The whp should be similar to a V6 Toyota Camry, but I'm sure APR will have a tune to fix that. The lack of real LSD is a real disappointment as well and I also expected the MQB platform to shed a few pounds. This really seems like a half hearted badge engineering job like BMW did with the M235i, its just a 135is coupe festooned with //M badges.

I would be concerned that Audi would release a S3+ or RS3 with some serious performance options available. I am starting to really second guess wanting this car, I am arranging a test drive and hopefully once I am behind the wheel I will feel better about it. I don't plan on being one of the first buyers, hopefully some information on US availability of the RS3 surfaces shortly after the S3 launch.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

GTI2Slow said:


> I am disappointed in the lack of performance available in the S3. The whp should be similar to a V6 Toyota Camry [...]


Not sure if srs. 

None of us has driven the car yet, but the journalist reviews we've seen aren't some massive plot by AoA to fudge the truth. I think you're shopping the wrong segment if you're buying HP. Ford can sell you a Mustang for pennies on the dollar with the new one on the horizon. Hell, why not just get that Camry? It's an even match for the S3, HP for HP, by your statement. I'm taking your word for that, by the way. I'm not wasting my time cross-checking you on a Scamry. :laugh:


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

GTI2Slow said:


> *I am disappointed in the lack of performance available in the S3.* The whp should be similar to a V6 Toyota Camry, but I'm sure APR will have a tune to fix that. The lack of real LSD is a real disappointment as well and I also expected the MQB platform to shed a few pounds. * This really seems like a half hearted badge engineering job like BMW did with the M235i, its just a 135is coupe festooned with //M badges.*
> 
> I would be concerned that Audi would release a S3+ or RS3 with some serious performance options available. I am starting to really second guess wanting this car, I am arranging a test drive and hopefully once I am behind the wheel I will feel better about it. I don't plan on being one of the first buyers, hopefully some information on US availability of the RS3 surfaces shortly after the S3 launch.



WAT.


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## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

I was expecting to see a larger gap between the S3 and A3. The s3 will come with bigger brakes, and a larger turbo strapped to the EA888 under the hood but without the ancillaries like a mechanical LSD. This isn't really a performance oriented car in my mind.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

The nonsensical Camry talk was enough for me. I didn't even make it to the, perhaps even more ridiculous given what we know about MQB, "badge engineering" accusation.

I'd have to say that's the first time I've seen someone claim MQB to be "badge engineering." Bold (and flat wrong) claim, but hey... we can try our best to squelch the spread of misinformation, but we can't force someone to learn.

:wave:


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## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

So, based off of other Haldex AWD cars in the VAG stable you think my guesstimate of 250whp is not reasonable? If you don't trust me about the v6 Camry specs I suggest you use your favorite search engine to verify. I doubt the Camery will be able to out corner the S3 even with its 200lb curb weight advantage but I was just using it to illustrate its not some road going monster.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

GTI2Slow said:


> So, based off of other Haldex AWD cars in the VAG stable you think my guesstimate of 250whp is not reasonable? If you don't trust me about the v6 Camry specs I suggest you use your favorite search engine to verify. I doubt the Camery will be able to out corner the S3 even with its 200lb curb weight advantage but I was just using it to illustrate its not some road going monster.


I don't doubt that 250whp is a fair guess. I also don't doubt that drawing any parallel to a Camry, other than to say they're both gasoline-powered vehicles, is anything short of wholly asinine. I don't care if the car ends up distributing 200whp to the pavement; the feedback we've seen from those who have driven it says your concerns are moot. I should clarify, however, that I'm talking about a sensible street car which can handle well, accelerate well, and brake well. It would seem that you believe the S3 should be a "one thing great, all others acceptable" car rather than as "all things well" type of car- you know, the old Evo/STI vs. Golf R debate. Is that the disconnect here? If so, no love lost... but I'm left wondering, because I don't think anyone who has been following this car expects it to be anything other than the "all things well" sort of car. Now, if it's a matter of seeing it as the "all things well" car, but thinking that it can't or won't move well with the stated power, well... I can't help you resolve that expectation other than to point out the sub-5.0s to-sixty time. I think you're selling short what we'll find to be a fantastic package, and I'm not sure why.

The final weight of the thing hasn't even been confirmed yet. We have the 3,460lb-ish figure, but until it's confirmed by AoA, it's a guess. Sometimes the near-instant availability of information is exactly what we don't need if we can't police ourselves when it comes to tempering such information.


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## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

I guess I should of been more specific, I expect a 40K sports car to pull away from a 20K penalty box at a stop light. 

If Audi releases a S3+ or better yet a RS3 I would feel I got a raw deal with the S3. I am a performance oriented buyer, I also would like a quality interior (Dash stroker in TCL speak). I understand others have different priorities when shopping for a car, yours clearly do not align with mine.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

GTI2Slow said:


> I guess I should of been more specific, I expect a 40K sports car to pull away from a 20K penalty box at a stop light.
> 
> If Audi releases a S3+ or better yet a RS3 I would feel I got a raw deal with the S3. I am a performance oriented buyer, I also would like a quality interior (Dash stroker in TCL speak). I understand others have different priorities when shopping for a car, your clearly do not align with mine.


No worries, and thanks for clarifying. What's the 0-60 time on that Camry you referenced?


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

GTI2Slow said:


> I am disappointed in the lack of performance available in the S3. The whp should be similar to a V6 Toyota Camry, but I'm sure APR will have a tune to fix that. The lack of real LSD is a real disappointment as well and I also expected the MQB platform to shed a few pounds. This really seems like a half hearted badge engineering job like BMW did with the M235i, its just a 135is coupe festooned with //M badges.
> 
> I would be concerned that Audi would release a S3+ or RS3 with some serious performance options available. I am starting to really second guess wanting this car, I am arranging a test drive and hopefully once I am behind the wheel I will feel better about it. I don't plan on being one of the first buyers, hopefully some information on US availability of the RS3 surfaces shortly after the S3 launch.


I can get on board with you on almost everything but you lost me when you bring the Camry into this equation. Come on man, stop looking that the horsepower "on paper". Even if you do want to play the hp game, I'm sure the S3 makes more power than it is advertised.

The S3 can run a sub 5 second time to 60, I don't see the Camry even coming close. Plus the S3 will be better in all other performance aspects as well, please slap yourself for bringing the Camry into this conversation.

If you are buying the S3 because its the top of the line A3 then you're doing it wrong imo. If you like what the S3 offers then buy it, if not wait and see if we do end up getting the RS3 or the M2 from BMW etc. I'm keeping an eye on the RS3 too, hopefully we do end up getting it. Audi needs to expand its RS offerings in the US!


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## MaX PL (Apr 10, 2006)

GTI2Slow said:


> I guess I should of been more specific, I expect a 40K sports car to pull away from a 20K penalty box at a stop light.
> 
> If Audi releases a S3+ or better yet a RS3 I would feel I got a raw deal with the S3. I am a performance oriented buyer, I also would like a quality interior (Dash stroker in TCL speak). I understand others have different priorities when shopping for a car, yours clearly do not align with mine.


V6 camry's cost $32.5, are far slower than the S3, and are Camry's.

If you're a performance oriented buyer why do you drive a GTI?


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## outshined (Jul 30, 2011)

V6 Camry is not 20k.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

MaX PL said:


> V6 camry's cost $32.5, are far slower than the S3, and are Camry's.


I'm suddenly compelled to post the AT&T guy around the table of kids. :laugh:


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

GTI2Slow said:


> I guess I should of been more specific, I expect a 40K sports car to pull away from a 20K penalty box at a stop light.
> 
> If Audi releases a S3+ or better yet a RS3 I would feel I got a raw deal with the S3. I am a performance oriented buyer, I also would like a quality interior (Dash stroker in TCL speak). I understand others have different priorities when shopping for a car, yours clearly do not align with mine.


If you are a performance oriented buyer, I am quite confident moving from the mark 5 GTI you have into a new S3 will be more than you need. Lots of people griped about the ASR/ESP on the mk 6 Golf R but once in the car it was quite manageable engaged in most track conditions. My point, don't knock it till you try it.... I also Second Halen's point about the many many journalists who have driven the car and given it a good review when thrown into the corners. 

You also mentioned hp figures and haldex etc...... check APRs website, their tests pretty much always rate the VW/Audi cars at higher than advertised power. 

Also, have you seen the stats ? S3 has a sub 5 second 0-60 time which should peg it around a low 13 second 1/4 mile, perhaps even better. Name another car with four doors that is not near to it in price but will perform as well...... they are all going to be up there in price or completely lacking in quality.

You mentioned you are performance oriented and would be ticked if the + model was later offered..... only you can answer this but at what point is cost a factor. I assume it is a factor at some point in the process since you have nice vehicles which are also economical according to your sig. And we are not all made of $$, I certainly wouldn't want to spend an extra 5K+ above a speced out S3. 

point is, not to gripe at you but your asking some loaded questions.


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## chiphead (May 12, 2011)

GTI2Slow said:


> I guess I should of been more specific, I expect a 40K sports car...


The only sports car Audi sells is an R8, and arguably the RS5. You should consider the S models as an engine/suspension upgrade.


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## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

phospher5 said:


> the many many journalists who have driven the car


those are only vaguely applicable as no one has driven the US release


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

mookieblaylock said:


> those are only vaguely applicable as no one has driven the US release


I was thinking the same thing. What they going to say when they drive the US version? Adding 200lbs and dropping the power (maybe) would likely be noticed.* But it sure did drum up a lot of interest! Lesson learned on my part.

*speculation


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## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

The DarkSide said:


> I was thinking the same thing. What they going to say when they drive the US version? Adding 200lbs and dropping the power (maybe) would likely be noticed.* But it sure did drum up a lot of interest! Lesson learned on my part.
> 
> *speculation


the big deal for me is not peak power it is low and mid and i'm not comfortable modifying an almost $50k brand new car w/ hpfp,injectors etc and killing the warranty just so it's comparable to a 27k wrx , then again if this is all bs and we do get the real deal my name is on a loaded R


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

I'm right there with you. I'm not big into modding at all these days. My GTI has oem sport springs and an ECU flash. Sometimes I feel like I should have left out the ecu flash. I got burned badly when I was younger modding cars, and I'm certainly not going to mod a 40k+ new car.. maybe after the warranty..


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

I guess if we want to take the optimistic route, we can say audi is letting the euro market be the guinea pig for the new tech in regards to reliability. :laugh:


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

The DarkSide said:


> I guess if we want to take the optimistic route, we can say audi is letting the euro market be the guinea pig for the new tech in regards to reliability. :laugh:


Absolutely.


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

with everything being said and being worried about...... chill out because we can infer with great certainty everything will be fine- we have no reason to worry. especially for the nay-sayers who are worried the S3 won't be sporty enough. having had the long lineup of AVG products I've had, along with all the other cars in my family and at the track over the years I enjoy and am happy with the S products. The journalist reviews are positive, the S and R models we get have always been good and they are not going to suddenly throw that away for literally no reason. 

for those of you who think you would actually pony up the $ for the RS3 if it came here, and would be ticked you got a "regular" S3 beforehand........ go get a porsche and call it a day then you won't do the whole hindsight thing.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

I just ran a piece on the S3 plus on our blog and linked this thread as the main point of discussion around it. 

The piece included this render by me and with zero insight... so don't expect it to be accurate or anything (looking at you Jalopnik who has begun to quote what we're posting in the forums http://jalopnik.com/will-the-2015-audi-s3-and-volkswagen-golf-r-lose-power-1529975612)










More on this story here: http://fourtitude.com/news/audi-rumors-renders-spy-photos/rumor-audi-planning-375-hp-s3-plus/


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> (looking at you Jalopnik who has begun to quote what we're posting in the forums http://jalopnik.com/will-the-2015-audi-s3-and-volkswagen-golf-r-lose-power-1529975612)


Zing!

Real talk, George... do you really see a spot for the S3+ in the US market? Or more to the point, do you see a place for an S3, and S3+, and an RS3? I'm sort of envisioning a "pick two" scenario, where we get passed over for the RS3 but get the S3+ in its place or see the S3 phased out for the S3+ to become the base car and the RS3 to hit the high range. I can't see the latter scenario being conceivable unless the S3+ replaces the S3, at time of PI introduction, for example, with no bump in price. Reactions have already been somewhat salty re: the S3 pricing for the US, anyway.

/near-worthless conjecture


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

Dan Halen said:


> Zing!
> 
> Real talk, George... do you really see a spot for the S3+ in the US market? Or more to the point, do you see a place for an S3, and S3+, and an RS3? I'm sort of envisioning a "pick two" scenario, where we get passed over for the RS3 but get the S3+ in its place or see the S3 phased out for the S3+ to become the base car and the RS3 to hit the high range. I can't see the latter scenario being conceivable unless the S3+ replaces the S3, at time of PI introduction, for example, with no bump in price. Reactions have already been somewhat salty re: the S3 pricing for the US, anyway.
> 
> /near-worthless conjecture


Conjecture it may very well be, but you certainly draw up logical possibilities.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

Dan Halen said:


> Zing!
> 
> Real talk, George... do you really see a spot for the S3+ in the US market? Or more to the point, do you see a place for an S3, and S3+, and an RS3? I'm sort of envisioning a "pick two" scenario, where we get passed over for the RS3 but get the S3+ in its place or see the S3 phased out for the S3+ to become the base car and the RS3 to hit the high range. I can't see the latter scenario being conceivable unless the S3+ replaces the S3, at time of PI introduction, for example, with no bump in price. Reactions have already been somewhat salty re: the S3 pricing for the US, anyway.
> 
> /near-worthless conjecture


I was chatting with a highly placed contact at quattro GmbH a few months ago about RS 3 (before learning about S3). He essentially said that's the debate. The RS 3 Sportback is a lock... done deal and will price at 50,000 Euros or more. He asked if I thought the market would bear that sort of pricing on an RS 3 sedan because he was unconvinced and implied that was the debate right now. Throw in the S3 plus and there's even less reason for an RS 3 sedan I guess, but I'd bet that if they do build an RS 3 sedan then we will be part of that model.

One scenario might be the S3+ sedan and then late in the cycle... say after the PI... give us the RS 3 Sportback. By then the e-tron is entrenched in the market and likely we'll get more versions of e-tron... like sedan. Saving the Sportback body to make a point won't be as important at that stage. Even that though might not make sense if TT RS is here and also if RS Q3 is planned. I had another source on the production side who seemed to think RS Q3 is being tooled up for USA but that's a much less proven source.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I was chatting with a highly placed contact at quattro GmbH a few months ago about RS 3 (before learning about S3). He essentially said that's the debate. The RS 3 Sportback is a lock... done deal and will price at 50,000 Euros or more. He asked if I thought the market would bear that sort of pricing on an RS 3 sedan because he was unconvinced and implied that was the debate right now. Throw in the S3 plus and there's even less reason for an RS 3 sedan I guess, but I'd bet that if they do build an RS 3 sedan then we will be part of that model.
> 
> One scenario might be the S3+ sedan and then late in the cycle... say after the PI... give us the RS 3 Sportback. By then the e-tron is entrenched in the market and likely we'll get more versions of e-tron... like sedan. Saving the Sportback body to make a point won't be as important at that stage. Even that though might not make sense if TT RS is here and also if RS Q3 is planned. I had another source on the production side who seemed to think RS Q3 is being tooled up for USA but that's a much less proven source.


For this very reason, I honestly don't like the concept behind an S3+. Why does Audi need to copy what AMG did and bring us a highly boosted 4 cyl? Why can't the 5 cyl turbo RS3 positioned as a competitor, both here and overseas?

BTW, I think a lot of people would be more than fine with a RS3 sportback, no need for the sedan. 

George, is the S3+ a sure thing for production at this point? 

Audi can keep the RS Q3 too while we're at it, just give us the damn RS3. lol no enthusiast wants a lifted, heavier, lower powered version of the RS3. Again, this is just Audi copying what Mercedes is doing with the GLA45.


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

DaLeadBull said:


> For this very reason, I honestly don't like the concept behind an S3+. Why does Audi need to copy what AMG did and bring us a highly boosted 4 cyl? Why can't the 5 cyl turbo RS3 positioned as a competitor, both here and overseas?


From the article it almost sounds like they are doing it just to stick it to MB's boast that they have the highest powered production 4. :laugh: 

I don't think it makes a lot of sense. If it's 375hp, then what will the RS3 have to put out to make upgrading to it be worth it? 400? 425? At 425 it'd start to encroach heavily on other products in regards to performance.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

The DarkSide said:


> From the article it almost sounds like they are doing it just to stick it to MB's boast that they have the highest powered production 4. :laugh:


They did poach the lead engineer of MB's CLA AMG anchor, didn't they?

I have to believe there's at least some validity to your statement.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

The DarkSide said:


> From the article it almost sounds like they are doing it just to stick it to MB's boast that they have the highest powered production 4. :laugh:
> 
> I don't think it makes a lot of sense. If it's 375hp, then what will the RS3 have to put out to make upgrading to it be worth it? 400? 425? At 425 it'd start to encroach heavily on other products in regards to performance.



I agree with you honestly, delete the S3+ and just jump to an RS3 5 cylinder offering. I don't see how offering a 5 cylinder for a Mercedes 4 cylinder price is a bad thing. To me I'd just mod my S3 and get close to S3+ power for a lot less money.....(yes I know TD1 and warranty voiding will be responses).


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

jrwamp said:


> I agree with you honestly, delete the S3+ and just jump to an RS3 5 cylinder offering. I don't see how offering a 5 cylinder for a Mercedes 4 cylinder price is a bad thing. To me I'd just mod my S3 and get close to S3+ power for a lot less money.....(yes I know TD1 and warranty voiding will be responses).


Exactly! This is the reason if the US were to get one or the other, I hope they send over the RS3 instead.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Enthusiasts want the RS3 but without knowing what it would cost it's hard to say it would be a good idea for them to bring it. I personally wouldn't buy it and am guessing many on this forum that want it to come are also not going to buy it.

Pricing goes S3<S3plus<RS3 and it could end up a lot more than the S4 with a very limited market.

Just bringing up the realistic side which many probably don't want to hear.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

dmorrow said:


> Enthusiasts want the RS3 but without knowing what it would cost it's hard to say it would be a good idea for them to bring it. I personally wouldn't buy it and am guessing many on this forum that want it to come are also not going to buy it.
> 
> Pricing goes S3<S3plus<RS3 and it could end up a lot more than the S4 with a very limited market.
> 
> Just bringing up the realistic side which many probably don't want to hear.


Totally agree with you, I'm just making the argument for argument's sake. A Prestige S3 is at the very top of what I'm comfortable spending, so whether they brought an S3+, RS3, neither, or both doesn't really matter to me. I'm just trying to make a comparison that an optioned up CLA AMG costs over $60k, so if Audi brought an RS3 at that price(which I think is a realistic assumption) they would probably sell about as many as MB. Which is to say not many. 

But that also makes me wonder if it came to that, they might as well bring the sportback version of it over if they were bringing anything. At that price you're only appealing to hardcore Audi enthusiasts anyways in that class of car, who for the most part would probably want the sportback as it is more of an Audi heritage sort of thing.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

dmorrow said:


> Enthusiasts want the RS3 but without knowing what it would cost it's hard to say it would be a good idea for them to bring it. I personally wouldn't buy it and am guessing many on this forum that want it to come are also not going to buy it.
> 
> Pricing goes S3<S3plus<RS3 and it could end up a lot more than the S4 with a very limited market.
> 
> Just bringing up the realistic side which many probably don't want to hear.


Yes, we do know what the RS3 will end up costing. Just look at what the previous gen model sold for, my guess is it will sticker in the low $50's (Maybe lower). Just because they're introducing an S3+ (has it even been confirmed for production?), does not mean they have to up the price of the RS3. The RS3 was a big hit overseas and I don't think Audi would mess with its pricing/success to make room for this rumored S3+. 

If the S3+ does go into production, it will probably be a very limited run special edition car.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

DaLeadBull said:


> *Yes, we do know what the RS3 will end up costing.* Just look at what the previous gen model sold for, *my guess is* it will sticker in the low $50's (Maybe lower). Just because they're introducing an S3+ (has it even been confirmed for production?), does not mean they have to up the price of the RS3. The RS3 was a big hit overseas and I don't think Audi would mess with its pricing/success to make room for this rumored S3+.
> 
> If the S3+ does go into production, it will probably be a very limited run special edition car.


At best we have guesses I say at least mid to high $50's, maybe with pay colors, other stand alone options low $60's.


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

RS3 pricing talks eh...... around here the A5 is 44, the S5 is 55, and the RS5 is 77........ I believe the TT had a similar spread but slightly tighter when the RS was available last year. So, if the S3 is going to 41 in the us an S3+ would be.... what, like high 40s.... then the RS3 should come in as others have suggested, mid to high 50s or worse........ in Canada, definately in the 60s. 

I'd buy a porsche at that point I think.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

dmorrow said:


> At best we have guesses I say at least mid to high $50's, maybe with pay colors, other stand alone options low $60's.


Well the last gen TT RS stickered around $57K here and the RS3 will be lower than that by a few grand. Of course, all this is a guess but we have a rough idea. Fully loaded will probably be around $60K tho much like the CLA45 AMG.


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

I guess we should be thinking......would we rather see....... will they be more likely to bring over ...... an RS4 or and RS3 because bringing both at the same time would actually seem like a major marketing error in the grand scheme of things. Next RS4 is expected to have a v6 turbo from what I have read.


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## anti suv (Sep 26, 2013)

DaLeadBull said:


> Well the last gen TT RS stickered around $57K here and the RS3 will be lower than that by a few grand. Of course, all this is a guess but we have a rough idea. Fully loaded will probably be around $60K tho much like the CLA45 AMG.


I dont think the cla45 amg is the best benchmark for rs3 pricing. I think most would agree its a bit overpriced.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

DaLeadBull said:


> George, is the S3+ a sure thing for production at this point?
> .


From the sounds of it... yes. I will ask around in Geneva next week. As to whether we'll get it... I don't know. Merc sells the AMG here, and if it's a competitive thing then maybe so.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> Enthusiasts want the RS3 but without knowing what it would cost it's hard to say it would be a good idea for them to bring it. I personally wouldn't buy it and am guessing many on this forum that want it to come are also not going to buy it.
> 
> Pricing goes S3<S3plus<RS3 and it could end up a lot more than the S4 with a very limited market.
> 
> Just bringing up the realistic side which many probably don't want to hear.


So the pricing for the Sportback is 50,0000 plus Euros. If that's the case, you can figure the sedan would be at least $50K. Would people pay $50K+ for an RS 3?


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## anti suv (Sep 26, 2013)

It would depend on the specs but i would pay ~50k for an rs3.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

anti suv said:


> It would depend on the specs but i would pay ~50k for an rs3.


If it were around that price, I'd probably try to stretch it. I mean top spec S3 is probably going to be right around that number too. And if I had an opportunity to scoop up a 5 cylinder I would do everything I could. But realistically I'm not going to wait longer for a rumored car, so the S3 is fine. :laugh:


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> So the pricing for the Sportback is 50,0000 plus Euros. If that's the case, you can figure the sedan would be at least $50K. Would people pay $50K+ for an RS 3?


In one word, Yes. If the RS3 comes well equipped in the 50-55K range, I would definitely be up for it.

BTW if you do some snooping around in Geneva, try to get an idea of which more likely to show up in the US, the RS3 or S3+. I'm afraid the answer will be S3+ but I would rather see the RS3.


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## HalvieCuw (Mar 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> So the pricing for the Sportback is 50,0000 plus Euros. If that's the case, you can figure the sedan would be at least $50K. Would people pay $50K+ for an RS 3?


Uhh, if they can sell a single prestige that would start at 47, they couldn't sell an rs3 for a couple grand more...? Would people pay 47 for an s3 is the better question.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

$50,000 RS3? Sure, with one very specific qualification: it must be "well-equipped" for $50,000, such that adding a couple small missing things doesn't risk pushing it above $55,000. If I have to add a seat upgrade, magride, and the high-trim infotainment gear, I don't see that happening.

Of course, that's neither realistic nor fair to expect, given S3 pricing. You're probably at $50,000 with super sport seats and magride on an S3, so to think we'd see a base price of $50,000 for an RS3 Prestige is absurd. We'd be looking at P+, I figure, and at that point, you're well on your way to building a $60,000 RS3- specifically if they open additional "halo" options such as black optics.

When I consider that I feel like an S3 will already be at the top end of "justifiable" (both in cost and in power that can be practically applied on a routine basis), it's easy to say that no, I wouldn't buy a $50,000 RS3. At that point, I'd have to make the decision to sacrifice features/ comforts for power, and since I'd use the former frequently and the latter sparingly, it just doesn't make sense. I'd love to have a potent five-pot, but this just isn't the time or place for me.

As soon as the S3 is paid for, I'll be right back at the dealership replacing the Rabbit, so I also have to be mindful of that.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

HalvieCuw said:


> Uhh, if they can sell a single prestige that would start at 47, they couldn't sell an rs3 for a couple grand more...? Would people pay 47 for an s3 is the better question.


At least one person will. :laugh:

As alluded to in my post above this one, I doubt you'd see a $3,000 gap between S3 Prs and RS3 P+.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

Dan Halen said:


> At least one person will. :laugh:
> 
> As alluded to in my post above this one, I doubt you'd see a $3,000 gap between S3 Prs and RS3 P+.


Well, don't the RS cars only have one trim level available? So no prestige, premium non sense. lol

That said, I think the base RS3 will have to come with things standard that were optional on the S3. If a similarly equipped RS3 is $10k or less over an S3, then I think its a fair deal.


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## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> So the pricing for the Sportback is 50,0000 plus Euros. If that's the case, you can figure the sedan would be at least $50K. Would people pay $50K+ for an RS 3?


I would, just to have an engine that doesn't sound like a 4-cylinder. :thumbup:


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

At the price points being discussed here you need some serious brand cachet to be able to sell in any appreciable volume. 

Let's make some pretty big assumptions, based on no knowledge at all: $10mm to certify and a 20% margin on a $50,000 vehicle. Audi would need to sell 1,000 units to break even on the certification costs. This doesn't include the training and marketing costs, put conservatively at $10mm. They now need to sell 2,000 units to break even. 

That's a lot of metal to move. 

I use this merely as a thought exercise to lend a bit of perspective. If you look at your potential buyers, they are both small in number and more than likely in the top 5% of income. At this level people are very interested in showing off. If you want a good example of this, see the recent Top Gear episode where Hammond drove the monster AMG SUV and compared it to equally garish, flashy autos. These are people with money and looking to flaunt it. When the police drive Lambos, you know you're in crazy town.

I would suspect that down the road Audi will be able to build the case for a $50,000 A/S/RS/Plus 3 model, but the timing isn't right. The R8 came at just the right time in North America: Audi had made a good impression on the US, they needed something to grab peoples' attention, and it did - and it was then followed up with the A5, Q7, B8 A4, Q5, A7. You can bet the model rollout has been very carefully planned and orchestrated. 

The same will have to occur with high-end A3 class vehicles. The 8P Sportback was an experiment to gauge American tastes. There was a LOT of experimentation that went on throughout the model years and this was intentional. They finally found the right mix for MY2010, but knew in order to really break out, a sedan was necessary. We now (soon) have that, with the Sportback e-tron filling in an important niche next year. I suspect that come the end of the 8V product run the US market will be ready for $50k A3s.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I agree with some of Travis' reply above. Part I disagree with is the part about wanting to show off at this income level. I would say more likely the person wants a bigger, more useful 4 door car or a 2 door sports car. I think the RS3 sits in an odd part of the market, a really high priced, very small sedan. If person is in their late 40's or older (guessing demographic of people that buy $50k sedans), probably not the car he can take his family (close to adults at this point), friends or business associates out as comfortably as the next larger car. Rarely will use the power over the S3 & it is at S4 prices.

My opinion is they won't bring the RS3, based on our market and what people that have this kind of money want. Probably not a good business case for it and it's not a "halo" car like some of the cars above it. I believe the only "R" models that come now are the RS7, RS5, & R8, if I was in charge at Audi the RS3 wouldn't be the next one I would bring.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

The S3+ comes off as more of a 'factory' package then anything. It is essentially the same power companies like ABT are obtaining. 
http://www.worldcarfans.com/113111466063/abt-tunes-the-audi-s3-to-370-hp

Essentially an APR Stage II, where Stage III is generally replacing the blower. With TD1, it is a nice option because not only are you not voiding your warranty, you are getting what APR/GIAC is already offering.

The RS3 adds a LOT more, including potentially a new engine, suspension and a whole slew of other things. 

IMO, I think AoA should see if they can market it more as a package like a true 'Sport Package' then a *new model* which requires all the government testing / etc


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

Well, I think both Audi and Audi fans tend to over analyze the situation. The mere fact that the CLA45 AMG exists in the US should be looked at as a encouraging factor for the possibility of an RS3. Also wasn't Audi talking about expanding its RS offerings in the US? 

When it comes to performance models, car manufacturers take risks knowing that the market is limited. If Audi was only into selling huge numbers, then there would be no business case for S and RS models at all. Again, looking at the certification costs etc. is for the Audi accountants, lets leave that alone. We don't know all the numbers, so its pointless to justify our claims for or against the RS3 coming to the US. Instead lets look at the marketplace and competition. 

BMW and Mercedes both offer more top of the line M and AMG models in the US than Audi does. If what we've heard about Audi wanting to compete by expanding its RS offering in the US is true then why not the RS3? Also lets not talk about a $50k RS3 likes its a $100k RS7. lol


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

We will see an RS Q3 long before we see a proper RS3 in the USA, thats my bet.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

ChrisFu said:


> We will see an RS Q3 long before we see a proper RS3 in the USA, thats my bet.


Which will be a giant shame, who the hell is asking for the RS Q3? Sometimes I don't understand Audi at all, its like they have this stereotype of America in their heads and there's nothing we can do to change it.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

DaLeadBull said:


> In one word, Yes. If the RS3 comes well equipped in the 50-55K range, I would definitely be up for it.
> 
> BTW if you do some snooping around in Geneva, try to get an idea of which more likely to show up in the US, the RS3 or S3+. I'm afraid the answer will be S3+ but I would rather see the RS3.


will do.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

The other thing I wasn't factoring when I had that discussion with a friend from quattro GmbH was the S3 plus. There will likely be pricing space between the two if both came. Given that plus the Euro exchange rate, I suspect higher 50s or into 60s would be possible for RS 3. Again, would people buy them?


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

I would argue that there would need to be some significant sheetmetal differences (read: aggressive fender flares) and not just new fascias for people to pony up that kind of money for an RS3.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

Honestly, $55-60k for a fully loaded RS3 is my limit and that's already pushing it. If we go past that, we're talking M3, C63 etc. money!

Like ChrisFu said, Audi can't do what they did with the previous RS3 and half ass it. We need fender flares, wider wheels, more aggressive body kit, lighter weight material use, etc. They also can't pull any of this BS with the MPI either.


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## anti suv (Sep 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I suspect higher 50s or into 60s would be possible for RS 3. Again, would people buy them?


A ~$20,000 price increase over an S3? That doesnt seem realistic. People would expect a lot for that kind of money.

The ttrs had a price increase of ~$8-9k over the tts. The ttrs also came standard with most of the availalbe options too. A similar increase would work for an rs3.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

anti suv said:


> A ~$20,000 price increase over an S3? That doesnt seem realistic. People would expect a lot for that kind of money.
> 
> The ttrs had a price increase of ~$8-9k over the tts. The ttrs also came standard with most of the availalbe options too. A similar increase would work for an rs3.


S3 Prestige is about $48k with destination so with your spread (which I think makes sense) it would be $56k-$57k.


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## JOES1.8T (Sep 8, 2003)

ChrisFu said:


> We will see an RS Q3 long before we see a proper RS3 in the USA, thats my bet.


I saw one today... not going to lie, that thing was a beaut. Then again pretty much all of Audi's RS line up cars are great.


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

ba dah bump.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-boss-confirms-new-395bhp-four-cylinder-engine

I'm kind of digging the horsepower war from the diff manufacturers on the 4's. :laugh:


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## Jatmobil (Mar 11, 2002)

opcorn:


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

Will there eventually be an exclusive S3 forum here, like the S4?


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

RyanA3 said:


> Will there eventually be an exclusive S3 forum here, like the S4?


Good question. We can certainly set one up. I think this is probably the strongest A3 MQB forum going, so I'm not so concerned about thinning it down too much. I think the question may be more what you guys think. The cars are still a few months out (for Americans), but there's certainly plenty of chat going on about them already. I guess I'd ask a general consensus then from you all who are the most active in here. Shall we split it out or leave it in here?


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

I'd say leave it as is combined.. I look on the B8 S4/5 forums and it's 90% ad's.


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Good question. We can certainly set one up. I think this is probably the strongest A3 MQB forum going,


Yes it is!! Very happy to be part of this group.



[email protected] said:


> so I'm not so concerned about thinning it down too much. I think the question may be more what you guys think. The cars are still a few months out (for Americans), but there's certainly plenty of chat going on about them already. I guess I'd ask a general consensus then from you all who are the most active in here. Shall we split it out or leave it in here?


I'd say leave it as one for now as I agree with TheDarkSide...see below



The DarkSide said:


> I'd say leave it as is combined.. I look on the B8 S4/5 forums and it's 90% ad's.


+1


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

It ain't broke, so... yeah. 

I know ads keep this place going, but I'm with the others who are saying that it's just 2x the places to post ads. I also am not too keen on moderating them separately- at least at this point. Once the A3 falls into flat-brimmer used car territory, maybe I'll change my tune.


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## Zorro83 (Sep 10, 2011)

Keeping it combined for now is probably best...one question though, why would separating it cause the influx of ads (which i am against)? Can't sponsors have their own area instead of spammng the boards?


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Zorro83 said:


> Keeping it combined for now is probably best...one question though, why would separating it cause the influx of ads (which i am against)? Can't sponsors have their own area instead of spammng the boards?


Take a look at the A4 and S4 B8 subforums.

For some odd reason, it's just not picked up here yet. When someone posts or bumps an ad thread, we generally manage to suffocate it pretty quickly with our average daily volume here.


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

I don't have a problem with a separate S3 forum.
There are folks talking about:
- pics
- colors
- pricing
- order dates
- arrival dates
- mpg
- exhaust tips
- wheels
- steering wheels


all sorts of things, that are predicated on whether you're talking about A3 vs. S3.


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## JOES1.8T (Sep 8, 2003)

The DarkSide said:


> I'd say leave it as is combined.. I look on the B8 S4/5 forums and it's 90% ad's.


I noticed that as well, it's just as bad as the A3/S3 forum in Audizine. Freaking horrible.


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

JOES1.8T said:


> I noticed that as well, it's just as bad as the A3/S3 forum in Audizine. Freaking horrible.


It's funny you mention Audizine.. I joined them recently just because their B8 S4/5 forums had some decent activity and not full of ad's!

Nothing wrong with ad's mind you, I'm glad the forums make money off them. But it can be a problem when the daily/weekly user traffic is severely out paced by advertisers... IMO.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

The DarkSide said:


> It's funny you mention Audizine.. I joined them recently just because their B8 S4/5 forums had some decent activity and not full of ad's!
> 
> Nothing wrong with ad's mind you, I'm glad the forums make money off them. But it can be a problem when the daily/weekly user traffic is severely out paced by advertisers... IMO.


Just a clarification even though it's obvious ads are how any site of substantial size keeps the lights on IF they don't charge some sort of user fee or subscription. I think the phenomenon you are seeing is in forums where there is low traffic. Our A3/S3 forum is well populated as are their S4 forums whereas ours are pretty quite. If signal = users and noise = advertisers, you can use the old signal to noise ratio analogy. The S4 forums are overrun because they're not really used by many people. Additionally, there are advertisers that have scripts that allow them to post in multiple forums and thus never even going into those forums to see the signal to noise ratio because if I were an advertiser I'd not want to look like I'm spamming.

Unlike scripts or robots, people like to go where the crowd is. Those who pay for advertising want access to owners who might want to buy their product. Those who use forums want to go to a forum where they'll find other owners to converse with. It is the magic of any forum and the curse in cases where you have less traffic. If you like Fourtitude, if you like what we do, then I'd ask you to encourage people to use our forums... even our lower traffic ones, because that's how we sustain ourselves. If you look at page views on forums or page views on blogs, the mass inventory of page views is on forums. Blogs are considerably more costly to run, so forum only sites sort of have this great thing going where they can sell adds perpetually... but (and I'm biased), I think our blog and our galleries and such add more intrinsic value to the community. I think the value of a good and solid forum to the community is obvious to anyone who uses them.

On the subject of separating out the S3 forum, I'd say let's wait until the cars start arriving and if we have a mass of S3 owners who want their own space then we can separate it out. I just want to make sure it has a nucleus of users because we don't want it to get overrun much like the S4 forum currently is.


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Just a clarification even though it's obvious ads are how any site of substantial size keeps the lights on IF they don't charge some sort of user fee or subscription. I think the phenomenon you are seeing is in forums where there is low traffic. Our A3/S3 forum is well populated as are their S4 forums whereas ours are pretty quite. If signal = users and noise = advertisers, you can use the old signal to noise ratio analogy. The S4 forums are overrun because they're not really used by many people. Additionally, there are advertisers that have scripts that allow them to post in multiple forums and thus never even going into those forums to see the signal to noise ratio because if I were an advertiser I'd not want to look like I'm spamming.
> 
> Unlike scripts or robots, people like to go where the crowd is. Those who pay for advertising want access to owners who might want to buy their product. Those who use forums want to go to a forum where they'll find other owners to converse with. It is the magic of any forum and the curse in cases where you have less traffic. If you like Fourtitude, if you like what we do, then I'd ask you to encourage people to use our forums... even our lower traffic ones, because that's how we sustain ourselves. If you look at page views on forums or page views on blogs, the mass inventory of page views is on forums. Blogs are considerably more costly to run, so forum only sites sort of have this great thing going where they can sell adds perpetually... but (and I'm biased), I think our blog and our galleries and such add more intrinsic value to the community. I think the value of a good and solid forum to the community is obvious to anyone who uses them.
> 
> On the subject of separating out the S3 forum, I'd say let's wait until the cars start arriving and if we have a mass of S3 owners who want their own space then we can separate it out. I just want to make sure it has a nucleus of users because we don't want it to get overrun much like the S4 forum currently is.


Sorry - my comment wasn't meant as a slight. It was just that like you said, the volume of users posting in S4 forums is low. I was honestly a bit surprised. Obviously the amount of owners, interested owners, or the pure curious is going to drive the amount of users posting actively in a specific forum. Right now the A3/S3 forum is pretty active. Will it die down once the car is released? Will it increase? Will the volume of S3 owners warrant their own sub-forum? That's kind of why I'd vote keep them together at least for now.  :thumbup: 

Also - to clarify.. I'm always posting in this forum from vwvortex. Does it help Fortitude in regards to ad money if I'm logged in from Fortitude? From my perspective (because I took a very long hiatus from the forums) they are identical except their news pages and or style (color)?


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

The DarkSide said:


> Sorry - my comment wasn't meant as a slight. It was just that like you said, the volume of users posting in S4 forums is low. I was honestly a bit surprised. Obviously the amount of owners, interested owners, or the pure curious is going to drive the amount of users posting actively in a specific forum. Right now the A3/S3 forum is pretty active. Will it die down once the car is released? Will it increase? Will the volume of S3 owners warrant their own sub-forum? That's kind of why I'd vote keep them together at least for now.  :thumbup:


Traffic on the Dodge Durango forum I frequent died down almost entirely after the large group of us waiting to order/take delivery of 2014s got our vehicles.



The DarkSide said:


> Also - to clarify.. I'm always posting in this forum from vwvortex. Does it help Fortitude in regards to ad money if I'm logged in from Fortitude? From my perspective (because I took a very long hiatus from the forums) they are identical except their news pages and or style (color)?


Great question. I wondered this same thing myself. I'm happy to support through both main sites. I'm on the VW threads as I continue to ponder A3/S3 v MkVII GTI/R.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

davewg said:


> Traffic on the Dodge Durango forum I frequent died down almost entirely after the large group of us waiting to order/take delivery of 2014s got our vehicles


Funny, my wife just asked me the other day if I'd be on the forum less after I get my car. I said probably slightly, but not much. There will be plenty of content to build after we have our cars. She also isn't aware that I'm now on another forum as well. :laugh:



davewg said:


> Great question. I wondered this same thing myself. I'm happy to support through both main sites. I'm on the VW threads as I continue to ponder A3/S3 v MkVII GTI/R.


George can add some additional color, but I know that some things are exclusive. The Fourtitude regional forums, for example, are 4T only. They're sort of quiet, so if I'm looking for regional something or other, I usually go back to vwVortex. I know... that's just contributing to the problem. 

Also, you can't get to the VW model forums through 4T, but you can get to the Audi model forums through vwVortex. The technical forums appear to be linked across both sites. It's a mixed bag, really. All that said, I come in through forums.fourtitude.com unless I have a specific need to go back in through vwVortex. Now, how Tapatalk handles it is a whole other discussion... :laugh:


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

Dan Halen said:


> Funny, my wife just asked me the other day if I'd be on the forum less after I get my car. I said probably slightly, but not much. There will be plenty of content to build after we have our cars. She also isn't aware that I'm now on another forum as well. :laugh:


Porsche I assume??

Agree I think this place will be more active than the Durango forum. There's just more we can do with these cars.



Dan Halen said:


> Now, how Tapatalk handles it is a whole other discussion... :laugh:


Tapatalk... :thumbdown:


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

davewg said:


> Porsche I assume??
> 
> Agree I think this place will be more active than the Durango forum. There's just more we can do with these cars.


Audi-sport.net.


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

Off I go to check it out...

What can I say - it's a slow day at work.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Reader beware. It ain't all rosy. 

The only real S3 "issue" they're seeing is something tinny or metallic sounding under throttle on the upper low end of the rev range. There is an A3 owner whose car has **** two water pumps at this point.

There's also some sort of rattle issue with B&O cars.


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

...so I noticed...


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

The DarkSide said:


> Sorry - my comment wasn't meant as a slight. It was just that like you said, the volume of users posting in S4 forums is low. I was honestly a bit surprised.


I'm hard to offend, so no worries. It's the reality of a forum right? I don't use MySpace because none of my friends are there. Instead I use Facebook. There are things I like about Facebook, but I also find it really flawed and if I could find a Facebook like platform that wouldn't choose what I like but allow me to choose it and wouldn't weight against people or communities who post a lot of links off of Facebook, then I'd probably make the switch and try to evangelize my friends to it. Nevertheless, I'd likely keep using FB to some degree if all my friends were still there. That's human online nature I suppose.

As to being surprised our S4 forum is pretty low traffic, it is an unfortunate phenomenon of the Audi community that I am directly a part of. At one time (pre-Fourtitude) VWvortex almost merged into the same company as Audiworld. We had all the analytics data for both sites back then and Audiworld was actually bigger believe it or not. We were with them for about a year or two and then decided we didn't like the way the company was being managed and we had an out so we took it. Audiworld stayed, that company eventually ran out of money and the main sites were sold off to buyers like Internet Brands who picked up AW. We left about 2001, and were under a non-compete and that's right about the time Audizine started. When the non-compete was over, Fourtitude launched... so we were late to the party but we had our own Audi forums on Vortex at least and we networked those in.

That's a long-winded way of saying that there are a lot of really good Audi sites with forums out there. AW is still a major player, as is Audizine. QuattroWorld popped up when Internet Brands bought AW, and they seem to be shrinking more recently from what I can tell via Alexa, but they've also got their own sizable following. The American Audi scene is split then amongst these major sites and then a bunch of minor ones. So we have strong A3 forums, strong TT forums, decent B5 forums, and others have really good other ones like Audizine with S4 and more. A5OC and R8Talk have cherry picked those models, etc. I wish we were all on platform and of course I'm biased as to which one. 



> Also - to clarify.. I'm always posting in this forum from vwvortex. Does it help Fortitude in regards to ad money if I'm logged in from Fortitude? From my perspective (because I took a very long hiatus from the forums) they are identical except their news pages and or style (color)?


It wouldn't hurt. VWvortex allows you to see the VW forums as well. When we switched from ZeroForum to VBulletin, we became the only forum that I know of outside of Internet Brands using networked forums. Unlike Zero Forum, you can't choose forum by forum which site to serve in the header. Over night we lost and VWvortex gained a LOT of traffic because there were many logging in that way. Your same username works on all of our sites with the exception of Swedespeed. I use this setup to use different usernames, [email protected] on that url and [email protected] on this one.

When we played with the INR8.com R8-focused blog last year, I learned a way to force an environment. If you click on the R8 forum here (now without table data visible unfortunately), it'll push you over to INR8. I could do that with all the Audi forums on VWvortex and regain that traffic, but I'm concerned that people will get frustrated when they have to log in again and wonder why they're being pushed. If you guys have thoughts on this, I'd be curious. I'd really like to get that Audi owner traffic back on Fourtitude because it really helps our analytics bottom line and that helps us in ad sales and also lobbying Audi for better access to things.

That last part is important. In Audi's push for volume, they've cut back on budget for enthusiast publications like ours and like the other major players. At one time I'd do any TechDay or whatever that Audi of America would attend in Germany. Nowadays, that's not the case. If we had more readers that I could show via analytics, that would get us more access or at least raise our importance, but with everyone being split over so many sites, that makes no one much of a power player. I've resorted to pushing the fact that we're by far the biggest Audi blog, but overall traffic only makes it that much more appealing.

Anyway, that's a REALLY long answer to your question. Thanks for your patience if you've bothered reading it all.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

Dan Halen said:


> Funny, my wife just asked me the other day if I'd be on the forum less after I get my car. I said probably slightly, but not much. There will be plenty of content to build after we have our cars. She also isn't aware that I'm now on another forum as well. :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're spot on. If you have reason to be using Volkswagen AND Audi forums then clearly the more convenient is to use Vortex. It's still part of our company so it's not like we're losing traffic, but internally we measure how many resources to throw at sites based on traffic. We do universally recognize there's some grey area between Fourtitude and Vortex for this very reason, but I can tell you when we switched forum platforms Fourtitude dropped 2/3 of its forum traffic over night. The traffic didn't go away, but it flipped to Vortex. If it's all the same, yes, please use Fourtitude but if you're jumping around I know I'd probably use whatever was most convenient.


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## davewg (Jul 30, 2001)

George -

That's great info to have (all of it).

I for one frequent both the VW and Audi sides of the house, but have no issues using Fourtitude to access the MQB A3 forum and Vortex for the MKVII forums.

You guys have a great product here, and I'll say again I'm happy to be a member because of the forum structure and general community.

Thanks


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Anyway, that's a REALLY long answer to your question. Thanks for your patience if you've bothered reading it all.


I read it! Thanks for the lengthy explanation and history lesson! You're by far my favorite vortex/fortitude person. Why? Because you sold me your 93 VR6 Corrado long, long ago! :wave: I know that due to a slightly public tiff with one of the vortex advertisers long ago I'm probably not that well liked by some of the vortex administration but I hope that time heals all wounds in this regard. I was young and I think mistakes were made on both sides.(My outlook has certainly softened a bit over the years) Regardless, that car died a very ignoble death, which I deeply regret. She deserved far better.  I still miss that car, she was a beast. My lesson learned was to never heavily modify a car again. Modest suspension drop/ecu flash is about as far as I'm willing to go, even then I am hesitant with ecu flashes! 



[email protected] said:


> If it's all the same, yes, please use Fourtitude but if you're jumping around I know I'd probably use whatever was most convenient.


At one point not too recently, I tried to login to Fortitude with my VWVORTEX credentials and it asked me to register a user name/pw. Maybe I typoed? I don't often read the VW side of the house at all so I'd happily login from fortitude. 

-mike


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

davewg said:


> George -
> 
> That's great info to have (all of it).
> 
> ...


Very kind of you to say. Thanks!


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

The DarkSide said:


> I read it! Thanks for the lengthy explanation and history lesson! You're by far my favorite vortex/fortitude person. Why? Because you sold me your 93 VR6 Corrado long, long ago! :wave: I know that due to a slightly public tiff with one of the vortex advertisers long ago I'm probably not that well liked by some of the vortex administration but I hope that time heals all wounds in this regard. I was young and I think mistakes were made on both sides.(My outlook has certainly softened a bit over the years) Regardless, that car died a very ignoble death, which I deeply regret. She deserved far better.  I still miss that car, she was a beast. My lesson learned was to never heavily modify a car again. Modest suspension drop/ecu flash is about as far as I'm willing to go, even then I am hesitant with ecu flashes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Mike! I do remember you and that car. I think you'd put a Schrick VG on it last time I'd seen you with it and we were both living in and around Gaithersburg, MD at the time. I miss it too and I'm sorry to hear of its demise. So many Corrados have gone down that way unfortunately. No worries on the past, we all were like that at one point most likely. I know I was. I try not to hold grudges and I suggest the same to our mods. Life's too short and policing such issues becomes incredibly time consuming. 

Let me know if you have problems doing that. It SHOULD work, but if it's not then I need to get to the bottom of that.


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Hi Mike! I do remember you and that car. I think you'd put a Schrick VG on it last time I'd seen you with it and we were both living in and around Gaithersburg, MD at the time. I miss it too and I'm sorry to hear of its demise. So many Corrados have gone down that way unfortunately. No worries on the past, we all were like that at one point most likely. I know I was. I try not to hold grudges and I suggest the same to our mods. Life's too short and policing such issues becomes incredibly time consuming.
> 
> Let me know if you have problems doing that. It SHOULD work, but if it's not then I need to get to the bottom of that.


Yep - I didn't realize you were living in Gaithersburg at the time though.. We lived in a complex we nick named "londonscary" instead of "londonberry." :laugh:

That Corrado was the strongest VR6 I'd ever been in. With bolt ons, shrick VGI and 264/260 cams(i think) she put down 183whp on a fairly neutral dyno. Her best 1/4 was a 14.3 @ 97.x mph (the wife pulled that number too). She had the rear seats/tires removed for that run but still. 

Anyways, sorry for the thread jack. Back to A3/S3/S3+ stuff! I'll double check the logon stuff.

/edit - worked logging in with same UN/PW. No idea why it didn't work the 1st time I tried it awhile back. Oh well problem solved. +1 to fourtitude traffic -1 to vortex traffic. :laugh:


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## kharma (Jan 2, 2004)

Interesting... my site traffic is split between Vortex and Fortitude only because I'm too lazy to change my TCL bookmark dating back to when it wasn't the same on 4T. 

Back on topic, I figure I've got another three years left in my 8P before it's really time to move on. Hopefully by then AoA comes to their senses and brings a non e-tron sportback. The higher the trim the better, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

kharma said:


> Back on topic, I figure I've got another three years left in my 8P before it's really time to move on. Hopefully by then AoA comes to their senses and brings a non e-tron sportback. The higher the trim the better, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


TDI work for you? I have it on pretty good authority we'll get more drivetrain options in Sportback... at least TDI. That's still up for changes in decision as it's not directly imminent (probably facelift) but it seems that's what they're expecting to do. e-tron just needs a unique body style for launch... but we'll likely get e-tron sedans eventually too.


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

there was some discussion of the handling in a post dedicated to the launch event.
I wanted to bring it here.

handling
cornering
body roll
whatever you want to call it.

I think the new mk7 chassis is supposed to be light and tight overall. But the (5") wheel gap is atrocious and will need to be addressed if you want the car to handle properly. The S3 will be another story, more controlled. But if Audi wants to really compete with the 3'ers, they need to lower the cars, all of them... or they will float and roll like a boat compared with the bimmers. Even with quattro, you don't need Ford Explorer wheel gap, on a sedan. It's completely ridiculous.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> TDI work for you? I have it on pretty good authority we'll get more drivetrain options in Sportback... at least TDI. That's still up for changes in decision as it's not directly imminent (probably facelift) but it seems that's what they're expecting to do. e-tron just needs a unique body style for launch... but we'll likely get e-tron sedans eventually too.


Too funny. I met a guy on the trails yesterday; he has a 2011 A3 TDI on which he's logged 110,000 miles. We got to talking about the A3 and S3, as I'm at the stage that I'll ramble about the S3 to anyone who will listen. He'd be apt to replace his car with another TDI were it available in sportback form.

Hell, I'd be apt to replace my Rabbit with a sportback TDI were it different enough in feel from the sedan to satisfy my wife. Her only complaint of the sedan was that it felt confined. I suspect the sportback form would be enough to address that. I hope so as, feature for feature, an A3 TDI is going to hurt my wallet less than a Q5 TDI. Even more ideal? An A3 sportwagen TDI.


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

Just ran our accounts plus many photos from NY, Chicago and Houston here:

http://fourtitude.com/news/Audi_New...ts-last-nights-a3-launch-parties-coast-coast/


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## The DarkSide (Aug 4, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Just ran our accounts plus many photos from NY, Chicago and Houston here:
> 
> http://fourtitude.com/news/Audi_New...ts-last-nights-a3-launch-parties-coast-coast/


If I could make a suggestion it would be to upgrade the gallery software. I find it painful to try and navigate the pics.. I usually give up after 1 or 2.


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> Too funny. I met a guy on the trails yesterday; he has a 2011 A3 TDI on which he's logged 110,000 miles. We got to talking about the A3 and S3, as I'm at the stage that I'll ramble about the S3 to anyone who will listen. He'd be apt to replace his car with another TDI were it available in sportback form.
> 
> Hell, I'd be apt to replace my Rabbit with a sportback TDI were it different enough in feel from the sedan to satisfy my wife. Her only complaint of the sedan was that it felt confined. I suspect the sportback form would be enough to address that. I hope so as, feature for feature, an A3 TDI is going to hurt my wallet less than a Q5 TDI. Even more ideal? An A3 sportwagen TDI.


Just grab an A6 TDI..... great performance...... great fuel economy/performance....Should feel kinda open.


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## kharma (Jan 2, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> TDI work for you? I have it on pretty good authority we'll get more drivetrain options in Sportback... at least TDI. That's still up for changes in decision as it's not directly imminent (probably facelift) but it seems that's what they're expecting to do. e-tron just needs a unique body style for launch... but we'll likely get e-tron sedans eventually too.


If Quattro. I was really impressed by a co-worker's TDI Jetta Sportwagen, and have seriously considered one but am too spoiled by AWD.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

More justification for the RS3, and maybe insight into comparable power numbers:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-m2.html


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Dan Halen said:


> Reader beware. It ain't all rosy.
> 
> The only real S3 "issue" they're seeing is something tinny or metallic sounding under throttle on the upper low end of the rev range. There is an A3 owner whose car has **** two water pumps at this point.
> 
> There's also some sort of rattle issue with B&O cars.


An update...

Audi's stance seems to be that there's a wastegate rod vibration due to exhaust gas puslations.



Translated Audi Bulletin said:


> *Technical Product
> Operation No.:. 2036787/1
> 
> Schwirr, or pattering sound of the wastegate rod on turbocharger - 1.8 and 2.0 liter engine EA888Gen3
> Release Date: 12/03/2014 Customer statement / workshop finding Prassel-/Rassel-/Schwirrrgeräusch from the range engine compartment / exhaust system between 1600 ... 2200 r / min. BACKGROUND Because of exhaust gas pulsations get wastegate valve and the wastegate rod on the turbocharger to vibrate. Due to these oscillations, the above mentioned noises caused. The function of the boost pressure control is not affected. measure A Component replacement does not help. Repair is reset. A repair attempt can therefore not be billed through warranty. Once a solution is available, it is published on TPI. customers information Because of exhaust gas pulsations get wastegate valve and the wastegate rod on the turbocharger to vibrate. Due to these oscillations, the above mentioned noises caused. The function of the boost pressure control is not affected. *


*

*I suspect that we'll have this on our cars as well. Maybe they'll have a fix soon, but I sort of doubt it- unless it's software-related.


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## jrwamp (Mar 25, 2011)

Dan Halen said:


> An update...
> 
> Audi's stance seems to be that there's a wastegate rod vibration due to exhaust gas puslations.
> 
> ...


This sounds familiar... my 2010 GTI(first year) had a waste gate rattle as well, VW sent out a TSB where they just applied a little clip to stop it. Problem solved, I wouldn't be concerned about this at all. 

For reference:
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20401


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Ain't skeered.


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## Drof (Jun 27, 2013)

Dan Halen said:


> Ain't skeered.


im ok with it. at least it being a new engine/platform the tuning aftermarket will take a bit to get goin. should give people who want to modify the car time to put some miles on it and get these fixed.

i will be doing suspension mods and probably wait a good year or two before engine tuning to make sure all these small hiccups are found and replaced by warranty


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