# ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ***



## jackfrost1031 (Oct 19, 2004)

Disclaimer: I do not know everything. I have not done a 16v swap. I have lurked long enough on the Fox forum to learn this stuff but don't blame me for your not doing due diligence and researching for yourself!
*Table of contents:*
Definitions
Can I fit a 16v in my fox?
What about the distributor?
What about the clutch?
What about the oil pan?
What about the oil filter flange?
What about engine mounts?
What about fueling?
What about intake?
What about exhaust?
What about wiring?
What about cooling?








_A comparison of longitudinal and transverse OEM 16v setups_
*Definitions:*
9A - 2.0L 16v engine in Golf/Jetta/Passat from 1990-1996?
PL - 1.8L 16v engine in Golf/Jetta/Scirocco from 1985-1989
AEB - 1.8L 20v engine in Audi A4/VW Passat from 1997-1999? Has external water pump.
SEM - Standalone engine management
There are early and late 9A models.
More info needed
*Can I fit a 16v in my Fox?*
Yes, you can fit a 16v into your Fox. It has been done several times.
There are several options for where to get your 16v. B3/B4 Passats with automatic or manual transmission make great swap candidates as do any of the A1 or A2 cars with a 16v. The automatic Passats are great because the transmission dies long before the engine and as a result they are abundant in junkyards for a reasonable price.
*
What about the distributor?*
The battery will interfere with the cylinder head mounted distributor. You can:
-Relocate your battery to the trunk or anywhere else (but not in the passenger cab -- battery acid is bad.)
-Use a block mounted distributor with a low profile distributor cap. These are found on '94-98 Saab 900's with the 2.0 and 2.3L and also Hyndai Scoupe's (unknown year). The "crab cap" is roughly 3/4" shorter not including wire plugs ends.
If you use the block mount distributor check the intermediate shaft and oil pump drive for compatibility. 








_Notice how much shorter the "crab cap" is, credit: mahkra_
-Use a distributorless ignition system. Check with your engine management system for help. This is out of the scope of this FAQ.
*What about the clutch?*
Use the Fox clutch. You can get uprated models as well from SPEC. A Jetta/Passat/Golf clutch will NOT work. The clutch is transmission specific.
Use a Fox, Quantum, Dasher, or FWD Audi transmission -- 4 or 5 speeds. Here is a list of gear ratios and acceptable transmissions. 
http://www.lunaticfringe.org/v....html
_Thanks Adam_
*
What about the oil pan?*
Use the Fox oil pan. Swap it from your dead 8v engine. Also, swap the pump _pickup tube_.
If you want a windage tray order one for a 95 Jetta with a 1.9L TDI diesel. To install you must remove the oil pickup, put on the windage tray, then reinstall the pickup. A transverse oil pan will not clear the subframe.
*
What about the oil filter flange?*
The stock 16v flange will not clear the Fox motor mount.
PL: Use the Fox oil filter flange.
Early 9A: Use the Fox oil filter flange.
Late 9A: Use an AEB oil filter flange.
The AEB and late 9A share the same bolt pattern on the block. 
The Fox, PL, and early 9A bolt pattern are the same.
More Info Needed

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_The difference in Fox and AEB oil filter flange_

For more information see JohnBarleyCorn's post a few down from this.
Make sure to note the sensors as well. The oil pressure sensor on the flange is a 0-5 bar sensor.
*What about engine mounts?*
The brackets for the stock 8v are a direct fit onto the 16v motor. Use them. If you want fancy mounts you can use BMW E30 mounts or order a set from 034motorsport. 
Solid rubber hockey pucks also work well and lower the engine a few millimeters, too. They are stiff. 
The 034 mounts are also stiff and a good upgrade if you want a racy feel. Here is a link:
Engine mounts:
http://www.034motorsport.com/p...13096
Engine mounts and transmission mount:
http://www.034motorsport.com/p...13095
_Thanks 034motorsport._
*What about fueling?*
This is best split into 2 categories: Digifant cars and CIS/CIS-e cars.
Digifant:
Here is info on Digifant 2 and 16v. This is written for A2 cars I believe but should be helpful.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1648969
CIS:
CIS-e can fuel a 16v with no problem. It will require some tuning. For a how-to visit 
Longitudinal's CIS-e tuning FAQ.
You will have to use 16v fuel lines and you are best to double check and make sure they are long enough.

SEM is perfectly viable for both Digi and CIS cars. More info may be found in other VWVortex forums.

*What about intake?*
There are several options:
-Notch your hood
-Notch your intake manifold. Note, this may require stiff motor mounds to limit engine movement.
-Replace the intake with one from a factory longitudinal 16v
-Individual Throttle Bodies (ITBs)
-Carburetors

The picture at the top shows the Audi 80 16v from Europe. There is also the Gol 16v in Brazil. They both use a low-profile intake manifold with the throttle body in the middle of the plenum instead of on the end like the transverse cars.
They are the best looking, in my opinion, option however the others work quite well too. The other options are beyond the scope of this FAQ.








_Brazilian OEM intake manifold_








_Ground down A2 intake manifold,credit MEC.TEDI_








_Another factory 16v manifold, credit: magicninja_

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_A set of ITBs and a V8 header installed on the brit's 16v fox. Carburetors were previously installed on this car. credit: the brit_
*What about exhaust?*
Stock 16v units exit pointing straight down instead of angled back as the stock longitudinal units. You can make a custom down pipe but it is not the most direct way out. However, it's cheap and it works.
The Audi 3.6L and 4.2L V8 share the same flange as the 16v. As a result, the passenger side header works and looks great to boot.
The Audi 16v also has a cast manifold with dual outlets. 
Unless you can get a downpipe shipped from Europe or Brazil, the downpipe is a custom unit.








_Audi 16v OEM manifold, credit: magicninja_








_A tubular welded v8 manifold, credit: JohnBarleyCorn_
*What about wiring?*
You are best off getting a copy of the VW Fox Bentley from Ebay, the VWVortex classifieds, or somewhere else. You should also get a Bentley for the 16v donor car. There are too many options to cover here.
All else fails, here is a picture of the sensors on the 16v head. 








*
What about cooling?* 
The 16v water pump is different from the 8v water pump. The big difference is the number of outputs. The 16v has 3 while the the 8v has 2. The Fox feeds the heater core from the back of the cylinder head while the 16v feeds it from a water pump outlet. 
More Info Needed
The radiator interferes with the 16v alternator location. You may relocate the radiator as the brit has done (small CRX radiator with custom mounts) or relocate the alternator to the passenger side of the block. Early NA diesels have a passenger side (or back, for transverse) alternator mount and bracket setup. They require clearancing the front engine mount. Custom brackets may be easier than locating said brackets. 
ABF alternator setups are also possible. Rotating the radiator on its stock mount allows enough clearance, barely -- 5mm at most.

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_ABF setup, credit Fox-n-it_
More Info Needed
*If any of this information is wrong or incomplete please respond and I will edit my post! I intend this to be a living document.
Many thanks to everyone who offers a correction!*
_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:12 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:13 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:21 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:22 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:31 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:32 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:40 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:42 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 11:45 PM 12-17-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 12:54 AM 12-18-2008_

_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 2:37 AM 12-18-2008_


_Modified by jackfrost1031 at 3:39 PM 12-19-2008_


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## Ian! (Mar 13, 2005)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jackfrost1031* »_
What about the clutch?
Fox oil pan. Swap it from your dead 8v engine. Also, swap the pump _pickup tube_. 


'What about the clutch' is in here twice.


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (Ian!)*

Cool. Good idea. Let me know if I can answer anything to help.

edit: Added to the FAQs.


_Modified by the brit at 1:42 PM 12-17-2008_


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## JohnBarleyCorn (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*

OK, here's what I've found out:
There are a few different 16V blocks. The PL is is the 1.8 engine which is the early 16V found in all Sciroccos (meaning all 16V Sciroccos of course) and in GLIs and GTIs up to 1990. Then the 9a was found in later GTIs and GLIs and in the Passats. I don't have a PL block here, so I'll assume it's the same as the early 9a for our purposes here. I do have a picture of my early 9a block and my current later 9a block. I think I have them the right way around...
Anyway, the early 9a block has the same pattern as the Fox oil filter/cooler flange so no problem. The later 9a has the same pattern as the AEB flange and the Fox flange will NOT fit it. The Fox flange will line up with the oil passageway instead of the bolt hole. 
Mystery solved.
I don't know of any relevant pros/cons of the 3 different blocks. 2L vs 1.8L is about it. 
Here are my pics:
First the reason you have to use a different flange:








Now here is the later 9a oil flange pattern:
















And the early 9a Flange Pattern (yup my old 16VT block...sold a couple weeks ago):








And here is the Fox flange vs the 9a flange:








Which gives you this result:









And the AEB vs the 9a flange:








And lastly, here's the AEB flange on the later 9a block:








I think that does it...


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## fusor (Oct 6, 2008)

Such a vague overview... and a little bit of misinformation. Having completed over 90% of the swap already here is my input. First off, the factory passat exhaust manifold fits the motor in the fox chassis but the downpipe takes some tricky fabrication. The placement of the alternator on the stock cast piece wont allow the radiator to mount correctly. I have found if you move the alternator to the passanger side of the motor you gain alot of room and with relative ease you can mock up your own mount and weld it together. If you opt to change over the distributor to block mount you may need to use the factory fox oil pump because the drive is different- i.e the 16v has a gear on the end.... and the fox has a flat blade style end. 
Lets touch a bit on the water pump outputs. the fox has 2 . Passat 16v has 3. The fox utilizes two hoses that come off the head to operate the heater core, the passat has its own feed out of the waterpump to the heater core. If you have anything else just toss it out there...


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## jackfrost1031 (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (fusor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fusor* »_Such a vague overview... and a little bit of misinformation. Having completed over 90% of the swap already here is my input. First off, the factory passat exhaust manifold fits the motor in the fox chassis but the downpipe takes some tricky fabrication. The placement of the alternator on the stock cast piece wont allow the radiator to mount correctly. I have found if you move the alternator to the passanger side of the motor you gain alot of room and with relative ease you can mock up your own mount and weld it together. If you opt to change over the distributor to block mount you may need to use the factory fox oil pump because the drive is different- i.e the 16v has a gear on the end.... and the fox has a flat blade style end. 
Lets touch a bit on the water pump outputs. the fox has 2 . Passat 16v has 3. The fox utilizes two hoses that come off the head to operate the heater core, the passat has its own feed out of the waterpump to the heater core. If you have anything else just toss it out there...


Thanks!
Having never touched a 16v or having more than a passing interest in this swap I don't pretend to know that much. I'm just quoting things I have seen posted on here several times.
I'll add your and JohnBarleyCorns info into the earlier post.


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## magicninja (Sep 30, 2007)

2 things to add. solid rubber hockey pucks will work for motor mounts, and also will lower the engine a little bit.
the dual outlet manifold is from a european audi 80 16v, like the one pictured above with the jetta. i opted for the v8 manifold for the ease of fabricating a downpipe.


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## jackfrost1031 (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (magicninja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magicninja* »_2 things to add. solid rubber hockey pucks will work for motor mounts, and also will lower the engine a little bit.
the dual outlet manifold is from a european audi 80 16v, like the one pictured above with the jetta. i opted for the v8 manifold for the ease of fabricating a downpipe.

thanks!


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*

I am assumming that moving the alternator to the passengers side with elimimate the use of the AC compressor. What about moving the Alternator to lower on the same side?
Greg w.


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## jackfrost1031 (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (90quattrocoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *90quattrocoupe* »_I am assumming that moving the alternator to the passengers side with elimimate the use of the AC compressor. What about moving the Alternator to lower on the same side?
Greg w.

Perhaps ABF setup with a v-belt pulley on it would work. I don't know; most people ditch AC.


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

Nice start to a thread, Z. I will look through later with my "correctionist" eye and see if I can offer critique-ism.


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: (Longitudinal)*

I have posted photos before:
Hockey pucks lower very slightly. I think the photos are in the FAQs with the heights.
Rear mounting the alternator. There are various VW OEM brackets, I ran a dasher diesel setup but had to modify (dent) my front mount to make it fit. 
I now use a 'ABF' setup instead. I have 5mm of clearance, that's it.
Audi V8 exhaust manifold. I notched mine for the steering arm, and re-welded the outlet to change the direction it exits at. 
Standard Golf/Jetta exhaust manifold - fits fine of course, but exits almost directly at the subframe. Some simple exhaust bending would solve it, but it wouldn't be very straight or short.


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*

Waterpumps - use almost any waterpump you want. I used a welded up one with one bottom outlet, the fox lower outlet. The normal 16v outlet is at a bad angle.
V-Belt / Serp Belt. I ran v-belt originally, both front and rear mount alts, but switched to serp instead. Haven't looked back since.


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*

Hockey Puck Mounts


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## fusor (Oct 6, 2008)

im having some plans drawn up for those who want to put the alternator on the passanger side of the block where the ac mounts--- it will be a printable template true to scale


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## fusor (Oct 6, 2008)

nobody has anything else to add to this- i figured fox guys would be all over this thread- how sad


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## Nick84 (Aug 4, 2007)

nice write up


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: (fusor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fusor* »_nobody has anything else to add to this- i figured fox guys would be all over this thread- how sad


Meh. It's just an engine swap.


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## JohnBarleyCorn (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: (the brit)*

Now if it were a VRT syncro swap....








I can't even imagine all the fabbing that would entail. Any takers?


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## fusor (Oct 6, 2008)

yeah but motor swap is the only way to go and i have never seen a vr swap into the fox neither the syncro-


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## JohnBarleyCorn (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: (fusor)*

Well, I know I won't ever do a 6 swap. I don't have any interest in adding cylinders, unless it's an I-5 Turbo, but that would necessitate a bunch of fabbing and relocation too...I'd rather go 16V or 20V and save on the weight.


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## fusor (Oct 6, 2008)

but johnbarleycorn "its only a motorswap"


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## JohnBarleyCorn (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: (fusor)*

yeah, and considering I don't even have a garage to work in anymore (I'll have to find one to rent soon), I already have my hands full.


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## fusor (Oct 6, 2008)

dude i found this thread in two other forums whats up with that???


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## foxnuts (Jan 7, 2009)

Here is the downpipe fabbed up by fusor for the 16v passat factory manifold








some pretty decent welds!


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## foxnuts (Jan 7, 2009)

Did the fitment into the chassis, fits great with plenty of clearance. My dude fusor wants to remove the slip style triangle flange and weld a solid flat flange on the end.


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## junn (May 6, 2008)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (jackfrost1031)*

the mectedi intake is not grinded down that was the hood that scraped the intake when the motor was in before the cross member mod that lowered down the engine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## littlesnides (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (junn)*

very interesting thread...
but almost discouraging


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## E. Castro (Jul 7, 2008)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (littlesnides)*

how long did it take to do this swap & can someone guide me on where to cut and weld on the manifold








edit: i have a 91 passat 16v.never done a swap can i use stock wire harness or would i have to use the passat harness? the fox its going into is a 5-speed 93 coupe


_Modified by E. Castro at 7:10 AM 4-8-2009_


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## Canadian V-Dub (Feb 10, 2009)

WHOA! Where did that strut tower brace on that yellow one come from?


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

it took me around 30 hours to have the motor in and bolted up- pretty much ready to wire up, i used the same platform, a 91 passat and ecu, im using the passats main engine harness but the rest is going to be fox, ill try and figure out a diagram for you to check out on how to weld together a downpipe to use the factory exhaust manifold----


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

*Re: (Canadian V-Dub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Canadian V-Dub* »_WHOA! Where did that strut tower brace on that yellow one come from?

Brazil. All though I have a feeling a shortened MK2 one will work.


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## Canadian V-Dub (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: (efritsch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *efritsch* »_
Brazil. All though I have a feeling a shortened MK2 one will work.

That's what I've been thinking, and I see the adjustable/universal ones, but I don't know how much they need tightened. I don't want to put something on and then end up warping something. I suppose I can't really warp much, and the more pressure I have on there, the less twist can occur.


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

*Re: (Canadian V-Dub)*

I can let you know. I have a MK2 Strut bar I just don't know if I can actually use it as it might interfere with my plans for the intake and air filter.


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## Canadian V-Dub (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: (efritsch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *efritsch* »_I can let you know. I have a MK2 Strut bar I just don't know if I can actually use it as it might interfere with my plans for the intake and air filter.

That'd be good. Any info as to the installation on the Fox would be greatly appreciated.


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## CStockRun (Mar 25, 2005)

*Re: (Canadian V-Dub)*

Engine code ATW also has an external waterpump as well...1.8/20v from 2000 my Passat..just a little FYI.


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

can anyone tell me where i can pick up a coolant transfer pipe that goes from the waterpump to the heatercore?


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## mariocbp (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: ***VW Fox 16v swap FAQ*** (the brit)*

Hey man what does that breather does all the way down there. I ask cause i am pretty sure i have not seen that before.








Thanks, mario


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

i take it your talking about on the brits car? the orange one? the only thing i could imagine is maybe pcv, but dont quote me on it-


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

*Re: (Fusor2)*

Canadian V-Dub, as to the MK2 Strut bar, I don't think it will work. I eyeballed it fairly good yesterday and it looks like to would stick up, above the hood with the stock mounting rings.


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## Canadian V-Dub (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: (efritsch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *efritsch* »_Canadian V-Dub, as to the MK2 Strut bar, I don't think it will work. I eyeballed it fairly good yesterday and it looks like to would stick up, above the hood with the stock mounting rings.

Yeah, a strut bar won't be of much use to me now, wrote off the Fox last Thursday. On to some other VW project when I can afford it.


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

so constant work and thoughts about my fox project, seeing as im running factory cis-e and not running all new fuel injector lines im running extensions where the plastic flexable ones were from the factory by using brake line and compression fittings- anyone else do anything like this?


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

*Re: (Fusor2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fusor2* »_ by using brake line and compression fittings- anyone else do anything like this?

Windowlicker and I tried that, but by using actual flares and nuts and everything. We lit his engine bay on fire.


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

well i would imagine yours had to leak for that to happen- i guess we will see- i couldn't find any sort of substitute for the fuel lines - the stainless ones i have are way too small and looked around the foreign junkyard near me and they didn't have anything close- i was looking around at the older volvo and mercedes stuff they had and checked out some other vw stuff but most wasn't cis-e


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## Canadian V-Dub (Feb 10, 2009)

You pretty much have to get stock lines, I tried special flare fittings from a local parts guy who can get almost anything, and they wouldn't fit properly. The only other option was import then from England, and that would have been ridiculously expensive.
I think the flare angle is something like 24 degrees, that's what my parts guy told me, or it was really close to that.

Try delorean injectors, some of them have banjo ends on them. That'd be easy to make lines for.


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## Banned wagon (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: (Canadian V-Dub)*

034 motorsports sells AN to the VW banjo factory connections IIRC.


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

well seeing as the compression fittings are dot certified for fuel systems and alot of ******** around me use them for the higher pressure repairs on brakes we will see how this pans out-- i really dont think ill have any issues- but there is a summit racing pretty close to me and ill have to hit them up and see what they have to offer- but i still cant understand how nobody has figured the fuel line issue out-- and as for the delorean injectors... WHO would have those expensive as balls things??? dude im living in the real world and not looking for an expensive alternative to my problem--keeping all of my receipts and including the prices of both cars im only up to around four hundred and fifty some odd dollars-- 


_Modified by Fusor2 at 7:07 PM 4-27-2009_


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## spdrace11 (Oct 27, 2003)

I might do this in the future.:sly:


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## suburbangeorge (Apr 24, 2004)

Back to life.  

Seems as though no one is doing 16V conversions any more or they're not talking about them. I have the euro Audi 16V intake and the passenger side V8 exhaust. Thinking that they are the two hardest parts to source. No, I'm not offering them for sale so this is not the wrong forum. I'll keep them like all the other nice parts that I have no current use for but by resurrecting this thread and then saving it in my favorites I give other members an opportunity to add other information that might help me if I ever get around to the swap. Keep thinking that a Fox wagon 16V quattro would make a cool little expedition rig.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

I doubt anyone is doing them. The couple I remember floating around were years back and I haven't heard mention of one in several years. At this point, Brazil might be the only place you would be lucky enough to spot this swap.


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## QuantumMechanic (Mar 1, 2015)

I was trolling for my buddy JBC (he no longer inters the net) and saw this thread. He's finally got his setup running and all. He's just buttoning it up now. It's not a Fox, but it's pretty close. Quantum 2-dr. He's gone for a very clean install that looks close to factory. He's planning on making the Audi exhaust manifold exit angled back instead of straight down. He has flex pipe on it for now.
If anyone is still looking for info, I can pass info on to him and from him. Older pic, but it's pretty much the same. He's got factory brackets ready to mount the expansion tank and windshield wiper tank. 








The big problem he had was the input shaft splines on the trans were bottoming out on the clutch disc hub so he finally figured it out and cut it down about 1/4" and now it finally works. Maybe the nose of the crank protrudes more on the 16V engine? 










Sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge


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