# Major improvement is coming for the MkIV suspension



## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

*Major improvement is coming for the MkIV TT/R32 suspension*

A lot of you are familiar with the Defcons from MCPI
*http://www.mcpii.com/suspension.html*

For those not in the loop, they are pressed in metal spacers that brings the post recalled front control arms to pre-recalled specs. The result is much sharper steering response and less dynamic toe changes that greatly reduce the understeery behavior of the car at corner entry and overall.

Well, Mike Phillips (president of MCPI) and I got together after my dissapointments that no legal solution was available for the SCCA guys. SCCA rules does not allow rubber to be replaced by metal and that made the Defcons not an option except for the Prepared class(full race cars with almost unlimited suspension allowances). 

The solution Mike came up with is a full solid Delrin split bushing with a metal insert that's not only legal for the racers but also improve the car's behavior a lot more than the original Defcons. There is no more bushing deflection and the steering response is instant. These things does to the Defcons what the Defcons did to the OEM recalled set up. They have been on my car for a little while now and they are awesome, I have a big  everyday. I find myself looking for reasons to turn because it's so enjoyable, compared to before.

The engineering is great (internal grooves for greasing, chamfered leading edges for ease of pressing them in). I am not sure what pricing is going to be but they are well worth the investment if you're looking for a real performance improvement. Mike should have all the details posted on the website shortly.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



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## [email protected] (Oct 16, 2006)

Very cool stuff! I would be picking up a set of these if I didn't already have the H2Sport Metal Bushings installed. Hell I might even try these out as the metal ones are a little harsh and noisy on the roads here. :thumbup:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Great.....more money to spend:facepalm::snowcool:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

DAMN! Just bought my Defcons last week...:banghead:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> DAMN! Just bought my Defcons last week...:banghead:


Installed yet? If not, sell them and get the real(er) deal.
I'm sure someone will take them off your hands at a deal.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> Installed yet? If not, sell them and get the real(er) deal.
> I'm sure someone will take them off your hands at a deal.


I probably could, but is it worth it? Since they are Delrin, you can probably just use a vice instead of a press right? Any idea what the price point is?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> I probably could, but is it worth it? Since they are Delrin, you can probably just use a vice instead of a press right? Any idea what the price point is?


I didn't use a press to do mine because I couldn't get a good angle to press the OEM bushes out without loading the arms in weird angles. You could just tap them in with a screwdriver handle. I just chiselled out the OEM rubber one out(real easy with an air chisel).

Oh, and they are well worth it, the steering is instant and super connected.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

Damn I want I'm also looking at buying bushings right now to complete me suspension project its next on my List of things to buy along with ball joints how much are these bushings?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm not sure what the final price is going to be, Mike will be posting the details on his website shortly.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Awesome...his stuff is always great!


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Cool beans, Max - I love what you're doing for the TT community :thumbup:

I _really_ want these, but I already have Defcons and just got an alignment, so I need more motivation to put these in - come up with some other awesome stuff to make me have to remove my control arms right now!  Either way, these are for sure going in next time I need an alignment.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

jbrehm said:


> I already have Defcons and just got an alignment.


How do you like the Defcons?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jbrehm said:


> Cool beans, Max - I love what you're doing for the TT community :thumbup:
> 
> I _really_ want these, but I already have Defcons and just got an alignment, so I need more motivation to put these in - come up with some other awesome stuff to make me have to remove my control arms right now!  Either way, these are for sure going in next time I need an alignment.


Mike and I are working on something even more ground braking for the rearward bushing of the front control arms. Just be a little patient because things are going to get interesting, that's all I can say.


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## Vdub 2.0 (Jan 8, 2008)

:thumbup:


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

madmax199 said:


> Mike and I are working on something even more ground braking for the rearward bushing of the front control arms. Just be a little patient because things are going to get interesting, that's all I can say.


That's what I wanted to hear! I'll be waiting - albeit excitedly and impatiently - for my favourite upgrades: suspension/handling stuff :beer:




warranty225cpe said:


> How do you like the Defcons?


If you're discerning at all about handling, I strongly recommend them. I'd go so far as to say forgo some power mods in order to get our pigs handling right :thumbup:


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

that is when I'll be making the move. Already have the defcons in...love them. but this as a start for a really solid upgrade coupled with a rear bushing is really going to make a night/day difference. Hoping its all said/ready for this winter as that'll be one of the upgrades. 

Joe


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> that is when I'll be making the move. Already have the defcons in...love them. but this as a start for a really solid upgrade coupled with a rear bushing is really going to make a night/day difference. Hoping its all said/ready for this winter as that'll be one of the upgrades.
> 
> Joe


I agree Joe, it makes sense if you have defcons already, to wait for the rear solution to be out and make one single upgrade.


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

For those interested in the rear position solution, it will NOT be cheap, likely around $300 for a set, maybe even more. It is in NO way an easy item to tackle and still comply with the SCCA rules. If you ARE STILL INTERESTED, please e-mail me at [email protected] so I can get a gauge of interest. I need to know there will be a potential market in order to commit development time to them... Thanks!

I am not a forum sponsor, and therefore not entitled to list prices, so this will be my only comment on them on this forum other than responses to user questions that I may respond to.


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## audiguy01 (Aug 12, 2008)

MCPaudiTT said:


> For those interested in the rear position solution, it will NOT be cheap, likely around $300 for a set, maybe even more. It is in NO way an easy item to tackle and still comply with the SCCA rules. If you ARE STILL INTERESTED, please e-mail me at [email protected] so I can get a gauge of interest. I need to know there will be a potential market in order to commit development time to them... Thanks!.


Email sent stating interest.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

audiguy01 said:


> Email sent stating interest.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: ^^^^^^^^^^

If only everyone else here understood the importance of a rearward front control arm bushing that offers limited or no horizontal deflection(sphericals are not legal in the popular and competitive SCCA classes and aren't suited for extended street duties). Although I can't get into the details of the design, I can leak the fact that they will make dynamic toe changes, resulting from bushing deflection, a thing of the past. HUUUUGE for handling! 

Thanks MCPI for taking the time to build parts for the segment of the community that cares about how this platform handles. I will continue to make a push for parts that could change the way our TT behave in a turn.


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## jmh2002 (Jun 28, 2007)

madmax199 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> If only everyone else here understood the importance of a rearward front control arm bushing that offers limited or no horizontal deflection(sphericals are not legal in the popular and competitive SCCA classes and aren't suited for extended street duties). Although I can't get into the details of the design, I can leak the fact that they will make dynamic toe changes, resulting from bushing deflection, a thing of the past. HUUUUGE for handling!
> .


Not trying to threadjack (the opposite actually). I have sphericals installed in my MKIV (from another reputable company) and I can attest to HUGE difference it makes to the handling.

My car is not a track car, its a daily driver (when Im there to drive it, at least)

So much less understeer. So much more predictable. A must. :thumbup:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jmh2002 said:


> Not trying to threadjack (the opposite actually). I have sphericals installed in my MKIV (from another reputable company) and I can attest to HUGE difference it makes to the handling.
> 
> My car is not a track car, its a daily driver (when Im there to drive it, at least)
> 
> So much less understeer. So much more predictable. A must. :thumbup:


Your input is welcomed, sphericals provides the same kind of connection between car and driver. The only thing with spherical bearings is that they aren't SCCA legal until the prepared classes and have *a limited life when daily driven*.


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

That's not the "only" thing ; ) Sphericals can and do wear out, as keeping the metal to metal contact lubricated can be a PITA. When worn, or even before, they can be quite noisy...


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## jmh2002 (Jun 28, 2007)

I wasnt intending to state the relative merits of sphericals, and I still dont since you stated its not legal for SCCA.

Regardless of the fact that I think mine are pretty good - more than 50,000 km with no signs of wear or noise yet I just wanted to AGREE and SUPPORT that any product that eliminates that unwanted flex / movement at the bushing / bearing points will make a HUGE difference to the handling.

For about the first week after my changes I noticed I kept over correcting, ie: thinking he car was going to understeer and then it wouldnt! A couple of time this took me closer the the highway barriers than I would have preferred!

The difference was that noticeable. Along ith some other changes, my front end grip is much greater than stock.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jmh2002 said:


> I wasnt intending to state the relative merits of sphericals, and I still dont since you stated its not legal for SCCA.
> 
> Regardless of the fact that I think mine are pretty good - more than 50,000 km with no signs of wear or noise yet I just wanted to AGREE and SUPPORT that any product that eliminates that unwanted flex / movement at the bushing / bearing points will make a HUGE difference to the handling.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, we got your point!

I also have been experiencing the same thing you are describing, since I installed the delrins bushings in my car. 

Before, in a spirited turn, the sequence was: 1-turn the steering wheel 2-wait a bit for the car to react to the input 3-understeer until the front end finally grip and change direction.

Now with the delrin, there's no sequence, you turn the steering and the car follows instantly.


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## Draxus (Jan 6, 2009)

I can't wait!


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm in, does anyone want Defcon inserts for $75 shipped? :laugh:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Bump for pricing posted on MCPI website!
http://www.mcpii.com/suspension.html#anchor_39

I still can't get over how drastically the delrins have changed the car's feel and handling! 
Anyone who doesn't have one is really missing out on some serious fun with their car.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> Bump for pricing posted on MCPI website!
> http://www.mcpii.com/suspension.html#anchor_39
> 
> I still can't get over how drastically the delrins have changed the car's feel and handling!
> Anyone who doesn't have one is really missing out on some serious fun with their car.



I already have the defcon 1 set up, can I just buy the new kit and install to be used with what I have? or are these replacing the defcon 1 parts?


thanks Max! :thumbup:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

omerkm1 said:


> I already have the defcon 1 set up, can I just buy the new kit and install to be used with what I have? or are these replacing the defcon 1 parts?
> 
> 
> thanks Max! :thumbup:


They are basically defcons on steroids that were designed and build by Mike to answer my ideas/demands on a race ready and SCCA legal solution for the platform. Defcons are nice and a big improvement over stock, but these are an equal improvement over the defcons since there is no rubber/poly deflection at all. These completly replace your defcon+bushing in the arm.

The best way to describe it:
Stock= banging a hot chick with 6 condoms strapped on (OK, if you enjoy a numb experience)
Defcons= with 3 condoms (big improvement)
New delrin solution= raw with all condoms removed (you finally get the real thing)


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

as long as you dont need a shot of penicillin afterwards


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## audiguy01 (Aug 12, 2008)

I have a DEFCON Ultimate setup on its way and looking forward to posting my impressions over my 10 year old OEM current set up.


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## jmh2002 (Jun 28, 2007)

How many miles? Either way, should be night and day kind of difference.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> Stock= banging a hot chick with 6 condoms strapped on (OK, if you enjoy a numb experience)
> Defcons= with 3 condoms (big improvement)
> New delrin solution= raw with all condoms removed (you finally get the real thing)


:laugh:


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

omerkm1 said:


> I already have the defcon 1 set up, can I just buy the new kit and install to be used with what I have? or are these replacing the defcon 1 parts?
> 
> 
> thanks Max! :thumbup:


DD will replace the DEFCON and PowerFlex combo at the front of the control arm, the new PowerFlex rear bush would replace the OEM bush at the rear of the front control arm. You would basically remove all the DEFCON1 parts if you went to DEFCON Ultimate. 

I have not decided to make an insert for current DEFCON owners to use with their current parts as I didn't think there would be enough demand to support it at the price I would need to charge. I may end up making delrin bushes available to insert in to the DEFCONs as well - anyone else interested if I do go that route? This bush would replace the small OEM one used in DEFCON2/3/4 or the PowerFlex used in DEFCON1 of current DEFCON users.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

MCPaudiTT said:


> DD will replace the DEFCON and PowerFlex combo at the front of the control arm, the new PowerFlex rear bush would replace the OEM bush at the rear of the front control arm. You would basically remove all the DEFCON1 parts if you went to DEFCON Ultimate.
> 
> I have not decided to make an insert for current DEFCON owners to use with their current parts as I didn't think there would be enough demand to support it at the price I would need to charge. I may end up making delrin bushes available to insert in to the DEFCONs as well - anyone else interested if I do go that route? This bush would replace the small OEM one used in DEFCON2/3/4 or the PowerFlex used in DEFCON1 of current DEFCON users.



I just installed the defcon 1 setup a couple of months ago, maybe 500-600 miles? If you needed a test mule for the insert, I would be happy to pay for the parts so I wasnt throwing away everything I just had installed. 

Otherwise I will probably wait till next year to think about the Defcon Ultimate upgrade. 

:beer:


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

I would be interested in the smaller bushing. I believe the smaller bushing in the Defcon unit is the same as the base MKIV chassis bushing. If so, it would be applicable across a large range of other vehicles including the Beetle, Golf, GTi and Jetta. That being the case I would potentially be interested.

I'm also interested in seeing what SP legal solution you come up with in the rearward bushing, that does not change the style/type of bushing that is used as compared to stock, as per class rules. If you are able to come up with something will you be making an offset version to increase camber/caster?


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## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

I actually had not thought about the fact that a smaller diameter version would be usable for the rest of the Golf chassis cars - good point!

For the rear bush, it is going to take a while before I get a prototype out. I may be able to get enhanced camber out of it, but I don't think it could be adjustable as well and still rules compliant.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Subscribed


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## beeyond (Oct 6, 2008)

*question*

will you give guys that have the defcon powerflex set up a trade in allowance?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

beeyond said:


> will you give guys that have the defcon powerflex set up a trade in allowance?


 I'll contact Mike so he can give you a reply since he's not here often :thumbup:!


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Any testamonials on these?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

20v master said:


> Any testamonials on these?


 Fitment is great. Improves the steering feel greatly over the vague stock units that never tell you what your steering input is doing.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> Fitment is great. Improves the steering feel greatly over the vague stock units that never tell you what your steering input is doing.


 For what they cost, they had better fit. You went from stock post recall bushings to the Delrin bushings?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

20v master said:


> For what they cost, they had better fit. You went from stock post recall bushings to the Delrin bushings?


 That is correct. 4 days at Lime Rock so far on them :thumbup: 

The reduction in bushing deflection is pretty astounding.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Any testamonials on these?


 They make the pre-recall configuration with stiff bushing feel like post-recall crap. The improvement on the directness of the steering response can't even be explained but only experienced. I still have the prototype that Mike developped for me in the car, there is no slop or decrease in tolerances (they still need to be pressed out for removal) and most importantly zero noise. 

You know I wouldn't help develop, do the initial prototype testing, and endorse something if it wasn't top notch. Bite the bullet and enjoy a different driving experience (these thing makes the steering feel like it was meant to feel). Let Mike know I personally sent you, when you get it :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

PM'ed. :thumbup:


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> They make the pre-recall configuration with stiff bushing feel like post-recall crap. The improvement on the directness of the steering response can't even be explained but only experienced.


 i am confused.....is this a good thing??? 

is your review positive or negative????


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Positive. He's saying these are the same amount of improvement over Defcons that the Defcons are over stock. Double the pleasure, double the fun.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ yep! 
Let's say the defcons + stiff poly bushings improve the post-recall feel by 50%. These completely take out the unwanted deflection and add another 50% improvement over the defcons (maybe even more).


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Max, it's been a year since this conversation: 



jbrehm said:


> I _really_ want these, but I already have Defcons and just got an alignment, so I need more motivation to put these in - come up with some other awesome stuff to make me have to remove my control arms right now!  Either way, these are for sure going in next time I need an alignment.





madmax199 said:


> Mike and I are working on something even more ground braking for the rearward bushing of the front control arms. Just be a little patient because things are going to get interesting, that's all I can say.


 
Give me a reason to go through the pain of taking my car to half a dozen alignment shops before it gets done properly! :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> Max, it's been a year since this conversation:
> 
> Give me a reason to go through the pain of taking my car to half a dozen alignment shops before it gets done properly! :laugh:


 You know what Jeremy, you're absolutely right about that. This project has been spinning its wheels for too long. Part of it is my fault because I haven't been on Mike's back about it enough. I will revive it as this will really put our OEM arms on par with exotic tubular versions with spherical bearings, while remaining legal for all SCCA competion (except stock classing).


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You know what Jeremy, you're absolutely right about that. This project has been spinning its wheels for too long. Part of it is my fault because I haven't been on Mike's back about it enough. I will revive it as this will really put our OEM arms on par with exotic tubular versions with spherical bearings, while remaining legal for all SCCA competion (except stock classing).


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You know what Jeremy, you're absolutely right about that. This project has been spinning its wheels for too long. Part of it is my fault because I haven't been on Mike's back about it enough. I will revive it as this will really put our OEM arms on par with exotic tubular versions with spherical bearings, while remaining legal for all SCCA competion (except stock classing).


 Haha, then I guess part of it is _my_ fault for not being on _your_ back about it enough  Looking forward to seeing what's in store for us!


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

Subscribedopcorn:


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## hemicuda1313 (Jun 22, 2007)

Just got my Delrin stuff in this week. Can't wait to install and turn around the feel of the car. Any updates on the rear position solution mentioned in this thread? Anyone heard anything? Sounds very interesting.


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## 3.1415 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Update or not?*

I daily drive an early (8/99 build date) TT with the un-violated suspension. This was documented by the prior (original) owner as NOT having been done as he would have none of it on his car. I have copies of certified mail between the owner and Audi telling them to STOP bugging him about the "upgrade" as he didn't want it and was tired of being pressured by the service department. 

Anyway. Would these new bushings be a good thing for my car, or is it already plenty good in terms of balance between sharp handling and NVH? And, who makes a decent camber plate for the car. It currently has a solid disc with an offset hole to allow some basic caster/camber adjustment. I'm at approx -1.8 on each side. Can I do better with a different style of camper plate? 

Dave


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