# 250whp from 16V carb???



## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm in process of planning and sourcing out parts for my 16v carb build. The end goal is to be as close to 250whp as possible. There is no special reason behind the number, its just magic number in my head. A personal goal. The engine will be going into mk1 Cabby.

In a last year I made a rough blue print, plan if you will, and started sourcing out parts as they popped up for sale. So far I have:
-PL 16v engine
-4K trans
-eurospec light flywheel
-R1 carbs, mani, filters, Carter pump, and other carb accessories
-msd set up
-autotech sport cams
-autotech adjustable cam gear
-P&P head (extra head)
-Ferrrera valves

The spare head is getting sportech hd springs and retainers, 3 angle valve job and a full rebuild. New seals gaskets and such.

Next on my list is the short block. I was planning on buying JE high CR pistons and rods and do a full rebuild. All new gaskets, seals and everything that goes w it.
This is where my question comes in play: should I rebuild the PL block or source 9a block? Is there a big difference between the two, and I mean significant difference? Enough differences that I could sell the PL and buy a 9a block? 

Now you guys know roughly what I have and my plans. How possible or reachable are the 250whp on carbs? Do I need bigger better carb? I tried looking around thru builds but there aren't many charts.
I don't need feed spooning or my hand held, just pointers before I jump into the block and start spending hundreds and hundreds of Benjamins.

This is the car that's getting the new engine


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

250 whp?? You might get 210 if you put 5k into the motor.


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## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

prom king said:


> 250 whp?? You might get 210 if you put 5k into the motor.


That's a reason why I'm asking. I don't know much about carbs and numbers people get from them.
I'm not building the car just for dyno numbers. I wouldve gone many easier routes. 
The rest of the car will be balanced out. Nicer suspension, bigger brakes etc etc
It should be a fun weekend car I will enjoy driving.


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

TM87 said:


> That's a reason why I'm asking. I don't know much about carbs and numbers people get from them.
> I'm not building the car just for dyno numbers. I wouldve gone many easier routes.
> The rest of the car will be balanced out. Nicer suspension, bigger brakes etc etc
> It should be a fun weekend car I will enjoy driving.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4915865-Most-power-out-of-a-na-16v/page2

I've seen like 10,000 bucks into a N/A 16v highest I've seen is about 216 WHP.

With serious work... Are you prepared to spend that much?


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## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

prom king said:


> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4915865-Most-power-out-of-a-na-16v/page2
> 
> I've seen like 10,000 bucks into a N/A 16v highest I've seen is about 216 WHP.
> 
> With serious work... Are you prepared to spend that much?


Thanks.

That's what I needed. Im planning on full rebuild w all new internals, I just wanted to see what people are getting from similar set ups. 

I guess 170-180whp is more realistic goal w amount $$$ I have(willing) to spend. Im ok w that result . Like already said, I wanted dyno numbers I would've gone 1.8T.


I guess I should've named the thread "whp from 16V carbs"


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

You will def need bigger cams and the LW hydro lifters. And a fully balanced bottom-end(crank,rods,pistons,pp and FW). Cause you're going to need at least 7500rpm. And the PL will be better at rev'ing than the 9A. Better yet, an ABA bottom-end (ABF clone) will get you closer. But, truthfully, 250whp is a lot to ask of N/A and be "drive-able" on the street.

I still think you'll need bigger cams for the revised target.


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## starksan (Mar 30, 2013)

KR head and work, full exhaust, over sized valves, balanced and knife edged crank, billet rods, forged 13:1cr pistons, 50mm OER carbs, dry sump oil system.


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## rodperformance (Oct 9, 2010)

*freddy bender*

If you want a solid engine take a look at freddy benders build,mk1 sirocco,for me it just doesnt get any better,money well spent,top notch craftmanship and knowhow!!,look for his build its porn,hi freddy!!


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## rodperformance (Oct 9, 2010)

*freddy bender*

If you want a solid engine take a look at freddy benders build,mk1 sirocco,for me it just doesnt get any better,money well spent,top notch craftmanship and knowhow!!,look for his build its porn,hi freddy!!Roderick from PR


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## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

ps2375 said:


> You will def need bigger cams and the LW hydro lifters. And a fully balanced bottom-end(crank,rods,pistons,pp and FW). Cause you're going to need at least 7500rpm. And the PL will be better at rev'ing than the 9A. Better yet, an ABA bottom-end (ABF clone) will get you closer. But, truthfully, 250whp is a lot to ask of N/A and be "drive-able" on the street.
> 
> I still think you'll need bigger cams for the revised target.


Bigger cams were a plan all a long. Sportcams are what I have atm.
ABF was another idea, but I want to slap a turbo on it.
The more I read other builds the more I get an idea of what's need. I think I'm gonna finish the head and do a swap over winter(stock bottom). More realistic target is 150-170whp, and in mk1 that's a plenty. I will have to figure out the way there, but I'm in no rush. Ill continue to research.
I would love to see more charts and builds, so show em off.


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## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

rodperformance said:


> If you want a solid engine take a look at freddy benders build,mk1 sirocco,for me it just doesnt get any better,money well spent,top notch craftmanship and knowhow!!,look for his build its porn,hi freddy!!Roderick from PR


Link or vortex sn? Thanks


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

A stock abf on good management, intake and header will hit 150whp. Carbs might get you there once you learn how to tune them. However they are not the end all be all of making power.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

fuk carbs go ITB and save yourself the headaches.

megaaquirt..haltech...lugtronic..some kidn of stand alone. 12:1 or higher comp(no more pump gas), has to be 2.0l or more, lots of revs and light weight and balanced, and big cams will net you clsoer to 200whp..but like otehrs have said. this is now race car powerband and violence.


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## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

Vegeta Gti said:


> fuk carbs go ITB and save yourself the headaches.
> 
> megaaquirt..haltech...lugtronic..some kidn of stand alone. 12:1 or higher comp(no more pump gas), has to be 2.0l or more, lots of revs and light weight and balanced, and big cams will net you clsoer to 200whp..but like otehrs have said. this is now race car powerband and violence.


The more I read and inform my self, the more I see the carbs are not a way to go. I like the idea of carbs and I like the "different" factor from all the 1.8T and VR swaps being done into mk1s.

At the end of the day, I will probably do ABF clone since I already have ABA engine and worked 16V head.

Thanks everybody for the insight that safed me a lot of $$$.

PS My carb set up will go up for sale PM me


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

ITBs


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## Cushy (Oct 16, 2008)

Thought: Find a TFSI head, block off the secondary fuel pump, get custom cams, bolt to 06X block. I hear the CFM on a stock TFSI head is around what most standard 16v heads are making with good porting, so porting a TFSI should in theory make big power comparitively. 

Can't say its possible, as I have yet to see it done, but I dont see why not if you plan on running carbs or ITB's. But that said, its totally a left field idea, especially since youve already compiled parts.


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## TM87 (Dec 30, 2008)

That has been abounded already
Going old and trusted route ABAT.


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