# Carbed 20V?



## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

im about to get my hands on a mk1 jetta coupe that is diesel powered. im going to drive it as is for a while,but i was think about eventually doing a 20v turbo swap. i gotta keep it old school though and that got me thinkin about a high revving NA 20v on carbs.... 
any ideas? has this been done? is it a good idea? 

pic for views, and to help your mental picture...


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## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

people have done 20v N/a setups before, usually with itbs. That is still a pretty rare setup. Its largest drawback is the lack of availability when it comes to cams for high rev NA setups. Also I have heard that the rocker design isn't as good for a really high reving engine.. is this true? 
I realize that you probably just want to be different, but your taking a engine designed for boost, throwing lots of $$ at it inorder to take a loss in the power department... I vote for staying turbo... or doing a 16v carb setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (jib.ninja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jib.ninja* »_
I realize that you probably just want to be different, but your taking a engine designed for boost, throwing lots of $$ at it inorder to take a loss in the power department... I vote for staying turbo... or doing a 16v carb setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

luckily i have time on my side since there wont be a motor swap for a long time, but i really want to avoid doing things others have already done. a carbed 16v setup i know would be fun, clean and simple but most of the cars have exactly that . if i wanted to do an ITB setup than yes it would cost a lot of $$. but thats not how i want to do it. im trying to make the motor simple. plus im not a big fan of 300+whp front wheel drive cars. i like taking turns with my foot on the gas








maybe i should just keep it diesel and add a more modern turbo diesel engine.....
any more ideas on the carbed 20V setup?


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

Go 16v. Nate romero is making mad power from a N/A 20v 14:1 on meth (240 whp) but says hi cam lift is bad cause the valves open IN towards each other, and will actually hit. 16vs are awesome for N/A (and cheaper). Some dual 48s, 2.1L, and some ~300 degree cams should get you to near 200 whp on street gas (91), and in that light car you are talking easy 14 second pass, prolly well into 13s.


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## kevinmacd (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

I believe there was a white corrado drag car with a 20v on ITBS floating around I saw it run at e town last year i think.


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## XKROMX (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*

~300 degree cams should get you to near 200 whp on street gas (91), and in that light car you are talking easy 14 second pass, prolly well into 13s.[/QUOTE]
not on 91 octane there is no way with a comp ratio of 14/1 say buh bye to your motor.


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## XKROMX (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

the real problem with the 20v ITB set up is cam availability or lack there of not to mention making a adaption plate for the t-body's .I have yet to see a 20v make any more power over a well built 16v motor,My reaconcern is the new FSI head no that seem's to be be rather promising and very interesting to fool around with.....


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (XKROMX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XKROMX* »_~300 degree cams should get you to near 200 whp on street gas (91), and in that light car you are talking easy 14 second pass, prolly well into 13s.

not on 91 octane there is no way with a comp ratio of 14/1 say buh bye to your motor.[/QUOTE]
I did not mean run 14:1 on street gas. Did you read my entire post, or just the part you wanted? I never said 14:1 for the 2.1, I was talking about the 20/20 corrado. 11:1 on 91 octane, 2.1L and 300 deg cams should put you just below 200 whp, or 210-220 crank horse.


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agaeris* »_
11:1 on 91 octane, 2.1L and 300 deg cams should put you just below 200 whp, or 210-220 crank horse.
 hahah thats the same as my vr6 does







i think its time for a coupe for sure.


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2manvr6* »_ hahah thats the same as my vr6 does







i think its time for a coupe for sure.

Yeah, and my Chevy 350 makes 300!






















Kind of out of context here. Now lets try making 270 whp in your vr6, a little more difficult. Why can the vr make the same power with less work, CAUSE ITS A BIGGER MOTOR. Wow!
And did you not say you wanted a car you could still pull corners with, wuote "not 300whp"? Changin your mind a bit? If you wanted a heavy pig of a drag only car you could just go ahead and put that vr in your 1900lb car and make it a 2300lb car.


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agaeris* »_
And did you not say you wanted a car you could still pull corners with, wuote "not 300whp"? Changin your mind a bit? If you wanted a heavy pig of a drag only car you could just go ahead and put that vr in your 1900lb car and make it a 2300lb car.









this is totally pointless i dont even know how to respond......
the mk1 coupe doesnt need 300whp to be fast, i think we all know that. i just wanted to keep it all motor with 20valves instead of 16, but it looks like the 16v is what i am going to have to do. either that or a 1.6TD. it may not have 300whp, but it will probably make that much torque at the wheels








ps the vr6 doesnt ass that much weight. my mk2 weighs less than 2300lbs....


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

Sounded like 200 wasnt enough.








Anyway, a vr weighs a good 200 to 300 lbs more than a 4-cyl vw motor, and that much weight added to the end of a mk1 makes a bit more of a difference than a mk2. And also consider that in the mk1 you cannot widen the track with the mk3 a-arms as you probably have in the mk2, so that limits it to a good straight line car, but only marginal and understeering car for the corners.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2manvr6* »_im about to get my hands on a mk1 jetta coupe that is diesel powered. im going to drive it as is for a while,but i was think about eventually doing a 20v turbo swap. i gotta keep it old school though and that got me thinkin about a high revving NA 20v on carbs.... 

Carbs?Welcome to 2005.
ITB's + Standalone are your best friend.
250whp 20V on ITB's:








Eurosport's 187?hp 20V On Carbs:










_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 12:57 PM 5-26-2007_


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## XKROMX (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Wizard-of-OD)*

YOU KNOW RAFFI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Carbs?Welcome to 2005.
ITB's + Standalone are your best friend.
250whp 20V on ITB's:








USRT will soon be offering affordable 20V and 16V ITB kit.I believe there target range is about $600-700US.PM them 

the car is an 84, i was trying to stay kinda specific to _THAT_ era.... also i will never put the vr in the mk1. maybe in the back








the ITB 20V was in a rabbit correct? anymore info on that setup?
i think most people are lost as to why i wanted to do a carbed 20v, but ive already decided that it wont be the way to go. right now im thinkin of either keeping it diesel powered, or ITB 20v. its not all about power here, but 250whp from an NA 4 cylinder in a car weighin less than 2000lbs should move, fast. and i like that


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## sicks (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Carbs?Welcome to 2005.
ITB's + Standalone are your best friend.
250whp 20V on ITB's:








Eurosport's 187?hp 20V On Carbs:




















ITBS definitely don't account for 90% of the power that motor makes... makin' that kinda power consistantly at diff weather/altitudes.. is a diff story... 
im sure it could be within 5hp w/ the right carbs of course usin' a digital ignition in tandem tho


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (sicks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sicks* »_im sure it could be within 5hp w/ the right carbs of course usin' a digital ignition in tandem tho









When I had my 4AGE 16V on webbers it made 132whp
when I bolted on 45mm ITB's + SDS it made 146whp or there abouts (huge improvement over stock).
ITB's own carbs in every way possible.Yes ITB's are responsible for the huge increase over webbers (the 204cc bump in displacement does help a little) because you can fine tune injectors a hell of alot easier than you can fine tune carb jets.


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








When I had my 4AGE 16V on webbers it made 132whp
when I bolted on 45mm ITB's + SDS it made 146whp or there abouts (huge improvement over stock).
ITB's own carbs in every way possible.Yes ITB's are responsible for the huge increase over webbers (the 204cc bump in displacement does help a little) because you can fine tune injectors a hell of alot easier than you can fine tune carb jets.


What kind of ignition on both setups, what jet sizing, etc... Webers tend to need a much stronger ignition system than ITBs do, and super fine jet tuning, and they will be darn near ITBs. A lot of people also prefer webers cause you can eliminate computers and injectors and all sorts of stuff. 
And cause they rock old skool fashion! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*

forget it.


_Modified by billyVR6 at 12:49 PM 8-26-2005_


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agaeris* »_
And cause they rock old skool fashion! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

hence why i wanted to make a carbed 20v.
billy i had an idea you were going to do something with the 20v head when you said you were leaving the NA vr6 scene. that head plus the tdi crank, aba bottom... am i getting the right picture, thats why u want the 94 golf III right?
its funny, cuz i had one before my vr6...too bad i didnt realize what i had.







BTW it was black with a sunroof and a/c. i think its gonna be tough to find one as stripped down as you want, but keep looking. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
maybe i can build something that may actually compete with you....


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## sicks (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








When I had my 4AGE 16V on webbers it made 132whp
when I bolted on 45mm ITB's + SDS it made 146whp or there abouts (huge improvement over stock).
ITB's own carbs in every way possible.Yes ITB's are responsible for the huge increase over webbers (the 204cc bump in displacement does help a little) because you can fine tune injectors a hell of alot easier than you can fine tune carb jets.


sds made the extra power not the ITBs.
ITBs have nothin' to do w/ extra horsepower over carbs. people are usually forced to goto a standalone engine management when usin' ITBs... which accounts for the extra power.
if carb users could make jet changes at the click of a mouse... oh wait.. they can.. it's called efi + stand alone. ;]


_Modified by sicks at 9:56 PM 8-25-2005_


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (sicks)*

xjoxx likes to stir it up.....bear him no mind.....Nate Romero has already been mentioned and is the *KING* of all motor 20vhp as well as ET. 
16v *IS*easier, it's been done a zillion times. But it's only about 10% cheaper than doing a similarly capable 20v set up. 10 is 10, it's up to you, but there's plenty of 20v all motor cam sets out there if you look around. Schrick, Cat, Web although I hear Web might be out of the game. 
Bottom line is this....the 20v head is a midrange head, meant for boost. You don't need much lift to get good #s with 3 intake valves and positive manifold pressure. That was it's intended design goal. Hotrodding, however, is about pushing limits and doing it how *you* want to do it. Don't be put off by naysayers. The results of of a heavy huffing all motor 20v are quite good, DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

nevermind.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 12:48 PM 8-26-2005_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (billyVR6)*

I know Billy is in the game for sure. Will be interesting to see how many of these things will actually be built and running. Seems like suddenly this is the bandwagon of the moment to jump on.


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## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (billyVR6)*

Let me throw in a little bit since it is late and I feel like adding my 2 cents as always. I am an old carb guy (have kids in college







)- Helping dad and friends with old scca MG's (MGA-Sears Point, Laguna etc..) on plus my own experiences. A well setup carb will run with FI to a point - Add a change in temperature - Humidity - Altitude - Bad gas or change octane - FI will win hands down. Been there - seen it on the track-at my expense. Watch the pro V8 guys running carbs with portable weather stations and software figuring out what jets to put in from run to run. Never see that with a FI team - maybe check the run on the log then make a change maybe not. Look at every pro race team outside of 1/4 mile and Nascar. Thats why I am switching over to FI. First install this weekend. I have seen the light!!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (sicks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sicks* »_sds made the extra power not the ITBs.
ITBs have nothin' to do w/ extra horsepower over carbs.









There is no way you can fine tune a webber jet the way you can fine tune an injector.SDS only helped in the tuning department.The mere fact I was running injectors,a TPS and 4 throttle bodies is what aided me in making power.
I dont know about you but balacing webbers every month got kinda tiring to me.ITB's own 45's Webbers any day of the week


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
ITB's own 45's Webbers any day of the week


Daily Driving or weekend racer, the carb application varies from motor to motor -period. 



_Modified by the12for12 at 7:16 AM 8-26-2005_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (the12for12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the12for12* »_Daily Driving or weekend racer, the carb application varies from motor to motor -period.

Oh thats a different case.If I was to build a track NA car it would definately be on webbers using an MSD box for ignition.That way I wouldnt have to run extra weight like alternator and accessory brackets.
But i dont race....so thats where ITB's come in.When I had my webbers and I sat in traffic I use to actually see my gas guage move.You have to factor in all this...for a street car or weekend racer I would recommend ITB's and I dont know a single person who wouldnt. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agaeris* »_Sounded like 200 wasnt enough.








Anyway, a vr weighs a good 200 to 300 lbs more than a 4-cyl vw motor, and that much weight added to the end of a mk1 makes a bit more of a difference than a mk2. And also consider that in the mk1 you cannot widen the track with the mk3 a-arms as you probably have in the mk2, so that limits it to a good straight line car, but only marginal and understeering car for the corners.

Actually this a myth that has stopped alot of VR swaps from happening








The VR is a really _small_ motor for a near 3.0L 6cyl, and it only weights ~135lbs more then a 4cyl. If you've ever seen a VR with manifolds taken off in person right next to a 4cyl, you'd believe me. Actually I have that scenario setup in my garage right now, I'll take a pic when I get my camera back.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (2manvr6)*

Motion seconded.


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (dohc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dohc* »_Actually this a myth that has stopped alot of VR swaps from happening








The VR is a really _small_ motor for a near 3.0L 6cyl, and it only weights ~135lbs more then a 4cyl. If you've ever seen a VR with manifolds taken off in person right next to a 4cyl, you'd believe me. Actually I have that scenario setup in my garage right now, I'll take a pic when I get my camera back.

Considering total weight of intake, exhaust. tranny, block, etc, the swap is over 200 lbs. I have both vr and aba motors sitting on my side yard, bit difference. And 200lbs on top of an 1800 lb car is an extra 11% weight increase, all at one end. I have driven vr swaps and they are no match for an equally built 4 cyl in corners.


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agaeris* »_Considering total weight of intake, exhaust. tranny, block, etc, the swap is over 200 lbs. I have both vr and aba motors sitting on my side yard, bit difference. And 200lbs on top of an 1800 lb car is an extra 11% weight increase, all at one end. I have driven vr swaps and they are no match for an equally built 4 cyl in corners.

The numbers I quoted are with everything on the motors. The biggest weight difference is in the trannies. The 020 is much lighter then the 02A.
Also with properly setup suspension, the difference in not really noticable on the street. If pushed to the absolute limit on the track, yes there is an advantage running the 4cyl.


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (dohc)*

On a mk2 is does not make much of a difference 'cause the track width in the front is pushed out 1.5 inches because of longer a arms and such. In a mk1 you cannot do this, so there is more of a difference. VR mk1s are a bit too heavy for my taste, having driven many different vr and 16v swaps in mk1 and mk2s.


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## SM2Ghia (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (Agaeris)*

Hmmm,
Well I think I'll cime in here with a couple words on ITB's vs. carbs.
Up until a couple years ago (and many still believe this way) most domestic drag guys asserted that carbs have a better "off the line" punch. Although most did agree that the fuel injected cars, particularly when it came to forced induction, made more overall power.
There will always be some disagreement on which will make more power, but there is something to think about when dealing with a carb. You _MUST ALWAYS_ have some sort of intake restriction, and resultant pressure drop, in order for them to work. Even at WOT there is always some manifold vacuum, because that vacuum is required to draw the fuel _UP_ out of the float bowl and out the venturies. (for FI, there's still a difference in pre carb vs. post carb pressure)
A throttle body, with it's complimenting fuel _injection_, has no need of any such restriction. And that's where the carbs are left behind.
The bottom line is that if you know what you're doing, either can make quite a lot of power.








(Now I just have to decide if I want 44mm weber carbs, or a CB fuel injection setup on my own air-cooled autocrosser!














)


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## Agaeris (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: Carbed 20V? (SM2Ghia)*

Good point. I have no doubt a properly set up ITB makes more power than a similar carb, but the extra 5-10hp is not really worth it to me. It does not make a difference unless you are talking class racing with tight regs and very similar cars. For my basic street/track car carbs have the old skool appeal and the power that stock CIS never has, so Im happy.


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