# Detectable ECU modification & flash counter



## pechspilz (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi folks
I recently had my 2.0T optimized with Oettinger stage I (ECU software provided by APR). When my ECU got optimized I met with I think his name was Ben from APR who was at the local dealership that day to set up the notebooks and network for the tuning process. I had a little chat with him and he mentioned that APR took care of all known flash counters and other counter-measures in the ECU and that there's no way to detect that the ECU has been modified just by looking at the version numbers or flash counters.
I played around with VAG-COM today and look what I've found after pressing the "Advanced-ID" button:








Now, okay that's no drama but I just expected that it wouldn't be THAT easy to detect that my ECU had been modified








Am I the only one with an increased flash counter or am I just the first one who found out about it? Is there a way to set it back to zero? 
By the way the APR/Oettinger stage I is running very nicely and the ability to switch between different fuel qualities is just an outstanding feature http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*

I noticed this on my TDI (B5.5). I'll have to check on my GLI http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## allcool (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*

Could that mean its been flashed 1 time at the Audi factory?
The ecu has to get flashed at least once.
Wouldn't the counter go up every time you changed programs with emcs if the counter was working?


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (allcool)*

It's 0 from the factory.


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## pechspilz (Dec 8, 2005)

Right. It's zero in the beginning, the inital flash in the factory doesn't make the counter go up to 1 as can be seen in my VAG-COM screenshot.


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## allcool (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (pechspilz)*

Interesting, good observation.
I will have to check mine


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## Todeshandler (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*

Er.... Why are the 2 screenshots different vag-com version numbers? and different IMMO IV challenge codes? 


_Modified by Todeshandler at 4:10 PM 2-22-2006_


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## pechspilz (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (Todeshandler)*

Screenshot #1 was made last December. Obviously the challenge code changes from time to time.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pechspilz* »_










Just a thought......how is there a 1 showing for # of flashes yet no date for the the date flashed?


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## Nie Hinunter (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (Todeshandler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Todeshandler* »_Er.... Why are the 2 screenshots different vag-com version numbers? and different IMMO IV challenge codes? 

_Modified by Todeshandler at 4:10 PM 2-22-2006_

You have a very good point. That picture looks way too pro too.


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (niehinunter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *niehinunter* »_You have a very good point. That picture looks way too pro too.

The version number of vag-com wont make a difference on the results you get. Vag-Com 510 was likely the newest data logger version at the time he logged it when his car was first stock. Recently ross-tech released version 512. Obviously it doesnt give you different logging results. Challenge codes will change over time. cheers! Mike


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## [email protected] Technik (Mar 25, 2003)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_It's 0 from the factory.

But the counter could be higher than zero by the time the car is PDId. In some cases cars will receive software updates or be flashed out of "transport" mode at the port prior to being shipped to the dealers.


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## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (bhvrdr)*

call up your local dealer...dont tell them who you are and ask them if the ecu in a 2006 gti/gli has a flash counter....







.
Im willing to bet I know what the answer is.
I had warranty work done on my car with my flash counter up in area of 45 flashes







.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (nerdhotrod)*

Mine says "2". I'm in the car right now, about to log some datablocks. I'll post a screen shot later


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (syntrix)*


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## pechspilz (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter ([email protected] Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected] Technik* »_But the counter could be higher than zero by the time the car is PDId. In some cases cars will receive software updates or be flashed out of "transport" mode at the port prior to being shipped to the dealers.

But when it's officially flashed there's flash date and a flash tool code I suppose. No flash date/flash tool code and increased counter = chiptuning. This is my assumption so far.
And why reflashing the whole ECU to bring it out of transport mode if one just can set a byte in the transport-mode adapation channel (or login code, I'm not sure which one it was) for the same effect. This takes 10 seconds versus 15 minutes to flash the whole ecu.


_Modified by pechspilz at 11:13 PM 2/22/2006_


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*

My flash counter shows 1. I also don't get the flash date and tool # but my car has been aftermarket flashed more than once so I assume the "1" refers to a factory flash. When I asked my dealership to try and detect the flash and we spent some time on the 5051 they couldnt say it had been aftermarket flashed. Anyone know why the vag com doesnt appear to show the flash dates and tool? cheers! Mike


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## allcool (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (bhvrdr)*

Mine also shows 1

It has only been flashed once by APR but i have used emcs many times.


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## pechspilz (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (bhvrdr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bhvrdr* »_so I assume the "1" refers to a factory flash.

It's been proven so far that this is not the case. APR-flash a Bosch MED9.1 and the flashcounter increases. I don't know what happens with a GIAC or Revo flash though.

_Quote, originally posted by *bhvrdr* »_Anyone know why the vag com doesnt appear to show the flash dates and tool? cheers! Mike

It ain't there when the car rolls out from the factory and it most likely it isn't there because APR made sure it isn't there or simply because APR doesn't fill out those memory positions (for a good reason).


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

According to my sources, we send cars off of our lot(Audi) with sometimes 1 or 2 flashes.
It's not uncommon.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*

Keep in mind that I have edited fields out of the image, so they appear blank.


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## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

When we flash an ME9 ECU the flash counter and attempts are set to 1 (in most cases.) The flash counter is never incremented. However, if the factory flash counter is 0 then the counter after flashing will be 1. Subsequent APR flashes will also be one. This is because many ECUs are set to one from the factory. If you see an ECU that is APR flashed and set to 2 or greater then let us know because that should never happen.


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:28 AM 2-23-2006_


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## pechspilz (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thanks for the explanation. I absolutely can live with a steady 1


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (pechspilz)*

yeah, that makes sense now. Mine has been aftermarket flashed several times (not talking about program switching) and still shows "1". cheers! Mike


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## PD Performance (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_When we flash an ME9 ECU the flash counter and attempts are set to 1 (in most cases.) The flash counter is never incremented. However, if the factory flash counter is 0 then the counter after flashing will be 1. Subsequent APR flashes will also be one. This is because many ECUs are set to one from the factory. If you see an ECU that is APR flashed and set to 2 or greater then let us know because that should never happen.



Brett not trying to start anything but just earlier this week Ben posted saying that it takes what you have and puts that back in.
"APR retrieves realtime the workshopcode, and number of flashes(attempts and succesfull) REALTIME from the car...then our system builds the binary that goes into the ECU displaying what the customer allready has on their car..."
Now you are saying that it only seems to do that when you already show 1 in the counter.


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## PD Performance (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (pechspilz)*

The counters are all over the place.. It doesn't have to be 0 when you get the car. My personal A3 which I know for a fact was never flashed at the dealer since a personal friend did the PDI, came in with 5 attempts and 2 completed. My car has been flashed probably 20 times and that is what it still reads.
My main point is that a dealer really can't say much just by looking at the flash counter unless they printed out and kept a record of what it was when it came in. My car is a perfect example of how they could question it being chipped, which it is, but the numbers would really not reflect the fact that it is chipped only that yes it has been flashed more then once.. by whom they have no proof of.


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## Rice-Eater (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (PD Performance)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PD Performance* »_
My main point is that a dealer really can't say much just by looking at the flash counter unless they printed out and kept a record of what it was when it came in

Well in a way they do (will). With the new telediagnosis based systems, the flash counter is interrogated when the car is connected to the server and the values are logged. If the car was flashed between services and the chip vendors software does not properly reset the flash counter, the system will recognize it and flag the car. Most dealers are not yet using this system but they all have to be in compliance eventually.


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## PD Performance (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (Rice-Eater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rice-Eater* »_
Well in a way they do (will). With the new telediagnosis based systems, the flash counter is interrogated when the car is connected to the server and the values are logged. If the car was flashed between services and the chip vendors software does not properly reset the flash counter, the system will recognize it and flag the car. Most dealers are not yet using this system but they all have to be in compliance eventually.

Anything 04 and on must have a guided fault finding log done for any problem that could throw a code. Or really technically anything. You can do a GFF for brake pulsation, it won't show anything but you'd get paid for doing it







.
These logs aren't always sent instantly, if you are not connected it saves it and sends it later. And nothing would flag right then for the dealer.
Audis policy is really if its chipped the ECM is void and any future problems that arise that can point back to the chip. Audi is definitly not out to get people who chip, just cover their ass basicaly. I meant to actually get the sheet today and scan it in.
I've only been asked twice while working at the dealer to help figure out if a car with some problems was chipped or not.. One ended up being hydrolocked.. The other is clearly chipped but not sure by who and I wasn't gonna throw someone under the bridge


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## Rice-Eater (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (PD Performance)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PD Performance* »_
Anything 04 and on must have a guided fault finding log done for any problem that could throw a code. Or really technically anything. You can do a GFF for brake pulsation, it won't show anything but you'd get paid for doing it







.
These logs aren't always sent instantly, if you are not connected it saves it and sends it later. And nothing would flag right then for the dealer.
Audis policy is really if its chipped the ECM is void and any future problems that arise that can point back to the chip. Audi is definitly not out to get people who chip, just cover their ass basicaly. I meant to actually get the sheet today and scan it in.
I've only been asked twice while working at the dealer to help figure out if a car with some problems was chipped or not.. One ended up being hydrolocked.. The other is clearly chipped but not sure by who and I wasn't gonna throw someone under the bridge


True, but GFF is a function of the diagnostic procedure. Telediagnosis takes the "human" aspect out of the equation and automatically interogates fault memory. DTC's are displayed and then through GFF, the tech begins the repair process. The issue is, with Telediagnosis, you can't circumvent the system logging the flash counter. It does it automatically. If a dealership isn't yet on "the grid" then the tech can still choose to ignore the fact that the flash counter has changed since the cars last visit if they even chose to document that information in the first place.


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## PD Performance (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (Rice-Eater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rice-Eater* »_
True, but GFF is a function of the diagnostic procedure. Telediagnosis takes the "human" aspect out of the equation and automatically interogates fault memory. DTC's are displayed and then through GFF, the tech begins the repair process. The issue is, with Telediagnosis, you can't circumvent the system logging the flash counter. It does it automatically. If a dealership isn't yet on "the grid" then the tech can still choose to ignore the fact that the flash counter has changed since the cars last visit if they even chose to document that information in the first place.

I have heard of some changes coming to the system but nothing quite that high tech. I honestly don't even see its place.
I have yet to have one car where going through the GFF procedures even resulted in actually fixing it. I either usually know whats up before or after an hour of GFF I'm still left scratching my head and it only took me the wrong way. Taking the human out in theory could save time and money.. But it will also waste alot.. The key is really to actually just hire people who are qualified to work on these cars.


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## feuerdog (Feb 11, 2002)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (PD Performance)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PD Performance* »_
The key is really to actually just hire people who are qualified to work on these cars.

You speaketh the truth my son, verily. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PD Performance (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (feuerdog)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feuerdog* »_
You speaketh the truth my son, verily. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

HAHAHA
I mean cough cough cough


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## VW420VR6 (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (Rice-Eater)*

if u dont have a feature off turning the flash tune off for a dealer visit i think u can still look at the engines requested and actual torque values. 
What MVB channel # is it to get the flash counter on the 5051/52/b??


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## PD Performance (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (VW420VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW420VR6* »_if u dont have a feature off turning the flash tune off for a dealer visit i think u can still look at the engines requested and actual torque values. 

Yes, if the car is not put back into a stock mode then a test drive and logging of requested boost and a few other things could possibly show that its chipped. However the technician would have to know exactly what the stock values are. Since they vary depending on conditions and because Audi no longer gives us/you/I any info about what the values should be.. ITs actually harder for a tech to figure it out.


_Quote »_
What MVB channel # is it to get the flash counter on the 5051/52/b?? 

You can find it once you enter 01 for engine. Its called advanced identification or something like that I forget. I've only gone in once with a 5052 usually check it with vag com.


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## DubDriver17 (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: Detectable ECU modification & flash counter (PD Performance)*

I like how the software says POOO! ha ha


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

FYI: IMMO Challange changes every time you cycle tjhe ignition.







Its intended to be that way, so don't worry about it too much.


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