# Maestro 7: My guide on how I do it. (MAFless)



## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

*TO ALL: I HAVE MADE PROGESS ON MY TUNE. PLEASE REFER TO THE POSTS ON THE 2ND PAGE AS WELL* 

I want to create this thread for people to reference on how I personally have gone about creating a tune with Maestro. Im not writing this as an offer to help you all fix weird oddities with your setups. 

Feel free to ask questions about tuning and I will try to answer them in the second post of this thread and create some kind of FAQ. 

If you dont know what im taking about at any point in this thread, you probably should rethink using maestro. 

Keep in mind I dont have all the answers, im just sharing what I know. I don't run a maf and never will, and I don't know anything about boosting on N75's so I cant really help with either of those. This is just a guide based on my personal experiences with using this software. Im not responsible if you blow up your car. I will say that it is ABSOLUTELY essential that you have a AFR gauge, No vac or boost leaks, and not exhaust leaks. The Mechanics of your care have to be flawless, or else tuning becomes extremely hard and rather pointless (especially if you are mafless). If you have mechanical problems, leaks, improperly resistor-ed items (SAI, N249, N80 etc), s*it falling off or whatever, ignore this post until you fix it properly. What we are doing with these engines at these power levels entails keeping your setup mechanically sound and having your electrics in proper working order. If you cant keep your kit in top condition at all times you might as well hit back on your browser and ignore this post completely.  

I will update this post with pics when I can. My car is down at the moment because I have a ripped seal on my clutch bleeder block causing a clutch fluid leak, and in turn no clutch lol. 

My setup is as follows: 
MAFLESS! 
1781cc (81mm bore) 
AEB Head, stock. 
SEM big port mani 
80mm hemi tb 
PTE 5857 billet Dual ball bearing 
MBC 
Siemens 80lb injectors (Referred to as 870cc, but actually 840cc @ 3BAr) 
Pag v-band kit 

Again, THIS IS MY METHOD. Follow it or not, but it has worked for me so far. 

Step 1: Select a base file. 

This might seem obvious, but when I start a tune, I like to select a base file that is close to what I am actually running. for my setup, i've chosen to run with the 870 base file that has just been released recently. 

Next, I imported the 80mm SEM Alpha N and TB vs Airflow maps from the 1000cc file, as this seems to be the only base file that has these maps for 80mm currently. If you have a 70mm TB, import the maps. If you some next TB that is not listed in the base maps: im sorry I dont know what you can do lol. 










As I am running the AEB + SEM + 80MM, doing this is essential. You need both of these maps imported into the 870 base file you plan to use (or whatever file you are running) not just one or the other. 










This importing of these maps applies to ANY base file! If you are using any of the base maps, and a different TB, or if the base map you want to use does not have your TB listed, *you must import the correct alpha n and tb vs airflow maps into the base file you wish to use!* Basically unless the base map has the TB size listed in it, you can assume it it is for a stock TB, with a stock intake manifold, on a stock head, using stock displacement. 


Step 2: Setting up the base file for your injectors 

First things first before doing anything: I highly recommend you buy a mechanical fuel pressure gauge to put inline after your secondary inline fuel pump. The value of having this when it comes to tuning is huge. Not all stock 3BAR FPR's for example run at 43.5 PSI (3bar). Knowing the actual fuel pressure will come in handy. 

If you select a base file that is for your injectors and stock 3 bar fpr, there is no real need to change your battery voltage compensation or injector constant values at this stage. What Chris has provided us is sufficient. I believe all AWP base maps are made for 3BAR fuel pressure. 

If for whatever reason your injectors are not listed, your displacement is different, or you have a 4BAR fpr, run the fueling wizard to get the correct Injector constant (IC) for your setup, using 43.5 PSI if you dont have a fuel pressure gauge, or using the values recorded on your fuel pressure gauge. 
Now i've noticed the wizard provides poor battery voltage compensation (BVC) values, so I suggest that after you get the correct injector constant, Go to the manufactures website of whoever has made your injectors and get the battery voltage values for your setup and use those. This will provide more accurate data to start with. ALL injectors have a calibration sheet, so there is no reason for one not be able to find these values. Calibration sheets look like this: 










Using these values will provide you with the correct BVC curve. If need be, you can re scale the voltage cells. I used 8v, 10v, 12v, 14v and 15v on my BVC map and entered the corresponding values. 










(For those who dont know what BVC does, it adds time, in MS, to whatever your injectors are running. Example if your injectors at idle are running at 1.7ms at 14v, .645MS is being added to 1.055MS achieve 1.7MS.) 

Now you will notice that my BVC values are quite a bit lower than the calibration sheet. This is because my fuel pressure is 43.5 PSI, and the BVC values provided from Siemens are at 39.15 psi. Higher actual fuel pressure is going to equal less BVC time added to overall injector pulse width. 

Next, if you are using injectors that are not specified in any of the base maps, set your Main Fuel Correction map to 1.0001 and your Injector correction map to 1.0001. This will ensure these are tuned correctly. 

If you are using a base map made for your injectors, leave these maps alone. 

Step 3: Idle tuning setup. 

This can be tricky, but not overly complicated. If the last steps have been done correctly, there should be no reason why your car wont start and stay running with a decent idle. 

For idle fueling on a MAFless setup, I have modified the first row of alpha N and TB vs Airflow map. these are set to all 0's from the base maps. 










Now this is rather controversial, as i've been told not to do this by a few people on here, but it works for me and has no adverse effects that I can see on the tune. The reason I have modified the first row of these maps is so the computer has something to read from during idle. I found that without modifying these, the idle AFR hunts like crazy for target. I cant get a straight answer from anyone, including Chris Tapp on why this happens, so im going to run like this. Wrong or not it worked for me, it might not work for you.. so I suggest you try running first without this mod. If you notice AFR is hunting for target while correcting, try lowering min injector pulse width first before trying this. If anyone wants to suggest something else, feel free to post up and I will add it to this guide. If you do decide to modify these, make sure you make changes to both maps and that they are similar in values. 

First, start the car and let it warm up and start correcting. at operating temperature, note the Throttle position value. Mine is 1.5%. If you notice the car at idle is too lean, or two rich, adjust the very first cell of alpha N (1000RPM, TPS 1.5%) accordingly. A higher value = richer, lower = leaner) Try to set this value ONLY ONCE YOUR CAR HAS REACHED FULL OPERATING TEMPRATURE! Why? because your warm up fuel correction map will interfere with this. If you try to set this when the engine is still cold, it will become very lean when it actually warms up!!!! 
Another way to do this is to plug in a MAF and get the value from the sensor and plug this into the first cell, and then dial it up or down accordingly. Again, only do this when its warmed up fully. 

Step 4: Part throttle fueling 

Once you get your idle fueling right, its time to go out and start logging. First things first though. Go out for a long drive, 20 mins or so, and return to base. BEFORE SHUTTING THE CAR OFF, LOOK AT BLOCK 32 AND NOTE THE FIRST AND SECOND COLUMN VALUES AND WRITE THEM DOWN! Why? Because we are going to use these values to properly adjust your BVC and IC. 
The first value is your short term fuel trim (STFT). From what I understand, this is the amount, in percent, that the ecu is scaling your BVC values by. So if you go for a drive and its reading -5.00%, this means that the ecu is subtracting 5% from ALL the BVC values you have entered. To adjust this, simply open your BVC map, and subtract 5% from all the values that are in MS using right click -> math functions. if the value in the column is positive, add this in percentage to all the values. 

The second value is your long term fuel trim. This is a bit more complex, but still simple if you can handle basic math. This is the percentage amount that is being added or subtracted from your IC. 

If my IC is .037518, and my LTFT is +3.13%, you must find what 3.13% of .037518 is. 

3.13% is written as .0313 

Knowing this, .0313 x .037518 = .001174. Therefore, .001174 must be added to .037518 to get the correct IC of .038612. This will be your new IC and you will never need to touch it again. 

Again, if your LTFT is -3.13%, you will perfrom the same math: 

.0313 x .037518 = .001174 

Only now you must SUBTRACT from .037518, which will return the correct IC of .036344. 
You can repeat this process as much as you like, 3 or 4 times should be more than enough. Once you do this and you notice STFT and LTFT stay close to 0% after a 20 min drive, you are done. 

After this is set, I use my S4 MAF to trace my Alpha N and TB vs Airflow maps by driving around. These were pretty close to what Chris has entered, so I was able to just apply histogram values and leave it alone. To do this, log a long drive, and trace over your alpha n and tb maps. 

After I get to this point and the previous items are completed, I adjust part throttle fueling via the Main Fuel Correction map. I have not touched Injector Correction Map at all, as I am using the values Chris has written from the 870cc base map. Some people have done it via opt torque map, but I was unsuccessful in doing so. 

Next, go take a long drive and log. Once I finish logging, I open maestro, and trace my main fuel correction map using AVERAGE and not LAST VALUE. Just to note the bigger the log, the better and more accurate data you will have when using average. 

Once you trace, do not just apply histogram values. For fueling this doesn't work. The idea when creating fueling maps with fuel injection systems is to sculpt them so they are nice and smooth. Notice my main fuel map: 










There are no abrupt peaks, valleys, or sudden changes. Its smooth. When you apply histogram values and have mountains and valleys on your main fuel map and take it for a drive, not only will the drive not feel smooth, but this will send your corrections for a loop. going from 1.0001 to 1.0240 is not good practice. the ecu cant correct for crazy sudden changes like this. *MAKING A SMOOTH FUELING MAP IS KEY TO GETTING YOUR PART THROTTLE FUELING DOWN SOLID!* 

So when populating this map with trace values, it is best to modify the cells manually. 

When I populate this map, I dont usually make corrections to it more than 2%. Small changes are best. Now if you make corrections to 1 column, adjust all the cells accordingly around it to make it smooth. I cant tell anyone how to do this. If you cant grasp how to make a map look smooth, then you might as well sell your maestro because tuning is not for you.  

Also, I noticed that my throttle tip in and tip out was rather quite harsh and it was getting really rich during these transients. I reduced my Accel and Decel fuel maps by like 15% and it has seemed to help. Im at the stage of getting this ironed out right now so im still experimenting with it. If you notice rich AFR during throttle transients then play with these maps...don't adjust more than 5% at a time. When you do adjust, adjust the whole map up or down. 

After you do all this, you might want to go back and double check your STFT and LTFT and adjust BVC and IC again as it might change from modifying all the maps. 



I Hope this info can help get you guys to a drivable tune. Again, these are just my findings with maestro and what has worked for me. I hope my experiences can help you all out with setting up a useable base tune. 

As I start pushing my setup, I will post here my findings. For now though this should help with starting a base file from scratch. 

If you have some questions PM me and I will try to help. 

For everyone: Here is my VVT file that I am using *FOR MY SETUP* that is working amazing. Power feels great, and after adaption O2 corrections hover in the +/- 1% range. 

http://www19.zippyshare.com/v/12972811/file.html 

:beer::beer::wave:


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

Reserved 2


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## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Sub'd opcorn: 
Looks great! :heart:


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## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

subscribed this is wtf im talkin about.. an actual DIY


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

:beer: 

if people have some questions ask and i'll try to answer them and keep them in the 2nd post as a FAQ.


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## hootyburra (Feb 19, 2007)

Thank you for all of the info.


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## NJ1.8T (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks for the info, now if I could just figure out what the heck I am doing I would be fine. I will read this over and over and get something out of it so I can actually add more timing to my car and get some more HP's out of it. Just wish there was a way to get the boost to come on earlier from throttle


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

use a smaller turbo


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## CupraDR (Feb 22, 2009)

Two thumbs up! :thumbup: Please keep updating with your findings!!!


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

Have you played with your timing maps yet?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Very Nice!!:thumbup::beer:


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Subd:beer:


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## createddeleted (Sep 24, 2008)

Good work. 

Some questions:

- have you tuned your cam timing maps yet?
- vvt on/off How did you come across you crossover points? Set to A then set to B then compare power output?
- how much boost are you running currently?
- got a dyno sheet at all? (5857 brethren)


It must be noted to never set a map at 1!!!!!


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## CupraDR (Feb 22, 2009)

Could you please share some logs in order to see how your file works?


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

I will try to answer all these questions, sorry havent really been cruising the tex too much lately.

A quick update though on my findings.

I am no longer using main fuel correction for fueling....only for adding extra fueling in high load / high rpm areas. I have reverted my main fueling back to 1.0001 for anything under 3000 RPM:










This map will need some adjusting, but for now its working fairly decent.

For my part throttle fueling, i've had great success with using the trace feature on the injection correction map, then smoothing out the data so it looks nice and smooth, like this:










The key here is to take nice long, fat logs of how you would normally drive the car. this helps get the most amount of data to get a proper map. This method i've noticed has to be done multiple times before the map starts falling into place. 

The great thing about tracing injection correction and using smooth data is that the map resolution is very high, so smooth data function is extremely effective. 

One other thing i've noticed is that the 80mm hemi and tb maps were rather rich at low rpm and high TPS (99% range). If youve seen my post in the maestro thread you will know what im taking about. this richness caused massive corrections from 2 to 4000rpm. What this means is that if you are seeing super rich conditions during low RPM / WOT conditions and you cannot mend it with acceleration fuel map adjustments, look at the 99% TPS range (all red) in alpha n and lower it some. (if you compare my alpha n map to the one from the 80mm file you will see what has changed in the 99% range):










Now also you will notice i have edited the first cell to 14.4. I dont think 18 was an acceptable (or realistic) number for idle airflow. It was way too high, and way to rich. THIS one single thing was extactly why I was getting weird rev hang when coming off the throttle, such as when coming to a stop light. If your STFT's are in check and you still are running rich or lean, look at this value and adjust it.

I've also made edits to my accel fuel map as well. It was also stupid rich. I've lowered it since quite significantly:










Playing with this map has helped keep my corrections within reason when romping on the throttle.

Just for FYI to all, if you make edits, do them in small amounts, dont just copy what i've done. I dont want this post to be anyones reason as to why they blew their engine up lol

Haven't really had a chance to do much else as i've been busy, but I will try to get some logs posted up here once the weather is favorable. 

:beer::beer::beer:


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

sabbySC said:


> Have you played with your timing maps yet?


Yes, I've basically adjusted the whole pump gas timing map up 18% so far, with some reductions in the upper rpm/load ranges to bring WOT timing pull back down to around -4.5CF at most. I do get the ocassional part throttle crusing timing pull so I need to work on it more.


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

createddeleted said:


> Good work.
> 
> Some questions:
> 
> ...


Answered


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

CupraDR said:


> Could you please share some logs in order to see how your file works?


Sure. Once it stops raining, I will post.


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

I figured you would start to steer away from main fuel correction. :thumbup: Injection correction is the way to go. Also setting the map to 1.0001 is simply asking for no change on desired lambda. Those values are simply multiplier's say your requesting 14.7(lambda 1) and you find a recorded lambda of 1.1 there will need to be a 10% correction to bring it to requested.


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## Bx V-dubber (Dec 17, 2010)

Sub'd, thanks! Just ordered maestro & read the other info thread on it. This is a better structured thread!


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## Cryser (Sep 9, 2009)

Something I've noticed that I can't get rid off in my mafless file is the ecu deciding to target 11.77 AFR once I press the clutch in or if I let it coast down to 1500rpm in gear. Any ideas on how to get that to stop happening.

Also I've found you can adjust the AlphaN map by your 02 correction at that TPS/rpm angle and it works fairly well if you don't have a MAF to run with. I'm gonna to be adjusting my BVC and IC values by this thread but so far I've really only played with adjusting AlphaN by 02 correction with great sucess. Also I have a pretty solid Power enrichment map now if your still looking for one shoot me a PM.


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## 04 GLI Luva (May 30, 2007)

Good stuff in here :thumbup:


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## Cryser (Sep 9, 2009)

So i've been using this guide we mixed success recently with my MAFless tune. I've gotten BVC to start to dial in but my IC keeps wanting to go up and down by at least 4%. What seems to happen is the BVC are constantly being asked to come down so I'm assuming they are being more and more dialed in. This falls in line with the fact I'm using a 4bar FPR so I'm happy with that. With the IC though I'll tend to get readings that ask to increase it by ~5% 2-3 times in a row, then the next run out I'll be told to lower it ~5% for 2-3 runs and I keep going back and forth in this circle. Although each time the numbers become smaller, at first it was ~8% then ~6% now it's high 4-5%. Personally I think my IC is a bit high for my set up atm (IC is .063XXX on a [email protected] 4bar base pressure) but I'm gonna leave the tune how it is and drive it a few days and then see what it balances out too. 

I've also noticed that my idle Vacuum has gone down by 2inHG (from 20inHg to 18inHg) and the idle has begun to search a tad so I'm gonna retune the idle and try and get it rock steady before adjusting the IC again, tomorrow at school between classes.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Good read, just need to read it about 10 times to get a grasp


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

This has actually answered pretty much every question I just posted in the Maestro thread.  Thanks for the awesome information!!


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

any updates/input for this? Time to get more in depth! :wave:opcorn:


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

Not really no. Car has been down for awhile so I havent looked at Maestro since last year lol

Once my stroker build is done then I will update.


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Subscribed to this.. Excellent write up:thumbup:


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## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

Rac_337 said:


> Not really no. Car has been down for awhile so I havent looked at Maestro since last year lol
> 
> Once my stroker build is done then I will update.


My cars not down if you need one to tinker with  

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


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## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

Trying to adjust my idle, its currently at 10.0 afr at idle, underload its fine it sits around 12. My issue is that my Alpha N top blocks are all set to 0. do I remove 1.5 from that making it −1.5?


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## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

sabbySC said:


> What size TB are you running?


stock tb that came with the tt225


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

cruzanstx said:


> stock tb that came with the tt225


Post your questions in this thread, try not to clog up space in this one... 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...g-FAQ-DIY-hard-data-and-advice-thread/page128


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

This man speaks the truth about not letting more than 2% changes when running the histogram. Im seeing less and less corrections when running it now.

Smooth driving is key, I see massive corrections when the accel enrichment kicks in.


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## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

sabbySC said:


> Post your questions in this thread, try not to clog up space in this one...
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...g-FAQ-DIY-hard-data-and-advice-thread/page128


Thanks....

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

cruzanstx said:


> Trying to adjust my idle, its currently at 10.0 afr at idle, underload its fine it sits around 12. My issue is that my Alpha N top blocks are all set to 0. do I remove 1.5 from that making it −1.5?


no, leave the top row as 0, and remove it from the first cell top left that has a value.


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## un1ko (Apr 6, 2004)

Subscribed! Getting close to start using my Maestro


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

My 2L build is almost done, just waiting on pistons and it should (hopefully) be back together in a few weeks. 

Will make a proper update when I have time


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## SMOKii3Y (Jan 28, 2009)

Quickquestion. Are you running a type of n75 or mbc?


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## adgoff21 (Sep 19, 2004)

Nice. This helps


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## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

so after this whats next to get more power? add more timing out of boost?


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

latest revisions to this thread are a vast improvement on original writeup well done :thumbup:


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## jettaman18t (Sep 14, 2005)

So does anyone know why my car would be under 30% load at idle? You can hear the turbo sucking in a ton of air which isnt supposed to happen at idle. I originally thought my cam timing was off a tooth but it was checked today and thats not the case. I also found 2 vacuum leaks that were fixed but that still doesn't solve the problem. I have the ie race cams. And from every idle video I have heard the cams are very lopey and distinct in sound and always have 7-8 inches of vacuum and I only have 4. I am thinking at this point I could possibly have the wrong bov spring and maybe that is causing issues. I tested it and it didn't open until 22 inches of vacuum which I dont have anywhere close to. Or could this be tune related? This file ran perfect on a identical set up to mine. Let me know what I should do next. Thanks


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

Budsdubbin said:


> latest revisions to this thread are a vast improvement on original writeup well done :thumbup:


 :beer::beer: 

will revise more once I finish my 2L build, and will write on how to dial in for the increased displacement.


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

cruzanstx said:


> so after this whats next to get more power? add more timing out of boost?


 I haven't gotten that far yet lol ended up tearing down due to something being sucked into my #3 cyl. and causing a gouge. Now going to 2L. Once I get a base down for that I will tinker some more and post up. :beer:


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

interesting post 

:beer:


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Load calculation is off. If you've already done revisions to the alpha n map along with the adjustment in throttle vrs air then what is left is adjustments in optimal torque map. Try lowering those values at idle. Loads. If your actual torque is lower then what the map is calibrated for then you'll see timing jump to add additional load to meet the calibrated torque. You may Have to start over from scratch because you probably compensated for richness in other maps. The reason why you were rich is because of high calculated load.


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## jettaman18t (Sep 14, 2005)

^^^ Is this regarding my issue? (Buds dubbin)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Rac_337 said:


> :beer::beer:
> 
> will revise more once I finish my 2L build, and will write on how to dial in for the increased displacement.


 Anxious to see the outcome of this!! 

With your mafless file what does spec load vs. actual load look like?


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

derekb727 said:


> Anxious to see the outcome of this!!
> 
> With your mafless file what does spec load vs. actual load look like?


 *edit 

nevermind was looking at a freinds log. my spec and actual are not close at all. lol never bothered to look into it really, but will try to see how I can change that.


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

was looking at a log from a long time ago...just pulled my last log i did before teardown... 

actual load at wot was 185 spec was 196. so pretty close.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Why is spec so low. I thought on a big turbo and higher boost you should be in 200s


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

derekb727 said:


> Why is spec so low. I thought on a big turbo and higher boost you should be in 200s


 Well I lowered the scale in opt tq. to make use of the entire table. The base file topped out at like 230 something, so i brought it back down to be inline with what my actual was showing and brought the last column of the table up to 100% except for the first 3 cells at low rpm (tapered it from 96 to 99%) 

Will be experimenting with dialing in KFMIRL and IOP to coincide with eachother...never really got to it though. Would probably help to do this for corrections being spotty.


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

They will have to compliment one another target filling is driver requested and optimal torque is sort of a ve map. Lowering values decrease the anticipated ve so less fuel is assumed before maf and other various inputs correct. Now this is my interpretation based on based on everything I've read and studied so far but my issue is recognizing and understanding how problem areas. You cannot just change one of the torque control maps without calibrating the others. Throttle vrs airflow I believe is another one of these maps, as you can see tapp has listed it under torque control.


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Correct load at idle should be from 15-23% of course it varies based on your particular engines ve or pumping efficiency. The biggest hurtle for tuners I believe is developing a strategy that works. Timing should be around 20 and steady for those with stock cams. If your tuning for bigger cams you should request a richer mix at idle and cruise.


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## NJ1.8T (Nov 4, 2005)

*BVC Values*

Rac_337 Sent you a PM in regards to the BVC values and when adding or subtracting %, do you just do it to the top where it's highlighted in Blue or do you do it to both the highlighted Blue and also the White?

Thanks for a great thread

Harvey


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

You should probably add that there will be fueling issues that need to be handled for those requesting or setting boost levels above 22 (Max pressure read by map). Beyond this calculated load cannot surpass values beyond that point. So many will have to use main fuel correction for peak loads. Or get a higher bar MAP


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

So I guess I should update this a bit as things have changed.

The new maestro updates now allow for tracing of other various maps and also allow you to select what parameter can be traced. This is such a handy feature for people trying to do mafeless tunes.

So after some tinkering with my 2.0 stroker build and driving around a bit and logging, I have noticed a few things:

This might be obvious, but it might not: I cant stress enough how important it is to calibrate alpha n properly. Before I did not really have a way of doing it as my maf input signal on my ecu is messed up and does not read. Using the new feature of maestro, I have been able to tune idle and part throttle fueling just by running traces on alpha n. After tracing over it multiple times, the car has become much smoother. I have not been able to go WOT yet as I am still on my break in phase, but I imagine this would work for WOT fueling as well. 

After I trace and apply values and get my map looking well, I like to go back over it and just make sure the map is not too rough looking. some manual smoothing needs to be done on this when you trace, otherwise the car will drive kind of funnny (jerking, not smooth, etc).

After this is complete, hit the little A button on the top of alpha N and paste the values to note pad or something. Then use the pasted values and enter them into throttle angle vs. airflow map. Not sure if this is necessary but I do it anyways to keep it proper.

When I trace, I leave my BVC set to manufacture recommendations and my IC set to the calculated value. *THERE IS NO POINT WHAT SO EVER* tuning STFT and LTFT unless you do the above mentioned work first. If you dont, you will just chase your tail.

Also to note that I didnt put into the guide before: when I do any kind of logging, I unplug my N80 so I dont get trims. This lets me trace maps and get good data sets without intervention from trims. Doing this is also essential. If you haven't been doing this then you should start over with the N80 unplugged. 

Again with the new base file im trying to create, I have both injection correction and main fuel set to 1.0001 until I get my alpha n where I want it. After you get Alpha down then you can carry on like I mention and start tracing Inj. Correction, and adding to main fuel if need be. 

Thats all I got right now. Will try to update more with any findings I come up with once I can go wot and not break anything. I want to try and experiment with torque maps and see where that will get me....wont be for awhile tho.

:beer::beer:


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## SteelHeadBC (Feb 3, 2010)

what traces do you use on alpha n?


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

SteelHeadBC said:


> what traces do you use on alpha n?


x2???


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

When you open the Alpha N map, it gives you the option now of which piece of data you choose to trace.

On a MAFless setup, 02 corrections would the one since for a given amount of air, you need a given amount of fuel

Unless something has changed, when this option became available a few weeks ago when you went to apply the changes from the histogram it gave some illegitimate numbers. Instead I tweak the numbers on the map itself up or down based on corrections


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## burkechrs1 (Dec 1, 2008)

Rac_337 said:


> So I guess I should update this a bit as things have changed.
> 
> The new maestro updates now allow for tracing of other various maps and also allow you to select what parameter can be traced. This is such a handy feature for people trying to do mafeless tunes.
> 
> ...


So even when we are logging for injection correction and main fuel we should unplug the N80 resistor so we don't get any corrections? Or is that only for alpha-n


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Rac_337 said:


> After this is complete, hit the little A button on the top of alpha N and paste the values to note pad or something. Then use the pasted values and enter them into throttle angle vs. airflow map. Not sure if this is necessary but I do it anyways to keep it proper.


So you literally just copy and pasted the values from Alpha N map to the throttle angle vs airflow map?



> Also to note that I didnt put into the guide before: when I do any kind of logging, I unplug my N80 so I dont get trims. This lets me trace maps and get good data sets without intervention from trims. Doing this is also essential. If you haven't been doing this then you should start over with the N80 unplugged.


With a working MAF, could one populate the AlphaN right? if so, what parameter is being traced? The maf reading?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

burkechrs1 said:


> So even when we are logging for injection correction and main fuel we should unplug the N80 resistor so we don't get any corrections? Or is that only for alpha-n


Car will not have any ltft. It will still corrrect to hit target lambda set by either/or the power enrichment and full load lambda maps.



RodgertheRabit II said:


> So you literally just copy and pasted the values from Alpha N map to the throttle angle vs airflow map?
> 
> You click the big 'A' to generate the Y-axis, nothing else.
> 
> ...


I believe Gulfstream did this. If you read the description for the Alpha N map though, I dont think its the best way.


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

SteelHeadBC said:


> what traces do you use on alpha n?





formerly silveratljetta said:


> x2???


o2 correction.


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

burkechrs1 said:


> So even when we are logging for injection correction and main fuel we should unplug the N80 resistor so we don't get any corrections? Or is that only for alpha-n


for any kind of logging to do with fueling.

I've had good results sticking with injector specs for BVC and the calculated IC that maestro gives. If your trims are far off when N80 is plugged in then something else is causing it.


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## Rac_337 (Sep 24, 2004)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> So you literally just copy and pasted the values from Alpha N map to the throttle angle vs airflow map?
> 
> 
> 
> With a working MAF, could one populate the AlphaN right? if so, what parameter is being traced? The maf reading?


1) You have to hit the "A" button at the top and then paste it to note pad, then enter in the values manually to tb vs airflow. 

And im not sure if you can use maf values to populate. I've never had a maf to use so I dont really know. I dont think you can though. Best way to do it is use o2 correction.


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Rac_337 said:


> for any kind of logging to do with fueling.
> 
> I've had good results sticking with injector specs for BVC and the calculated IC that maestro gives. If your trims are far off when N80 is plugged in then something else is causing it.



Maybe Im overlooking the obvious, but if you unplug the n80 you stop o2 corrections from working and/or logging in Maestro?

If so, how are you using them to trace alphaN or anything to do with fueling?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Maybe Im overlooking the obvious, but if you unplug the n80 you stop o2 corrections from working and/or logging in Maestro?
> 
> If so, how are you using them to trace alphaN or anything to do with fueling?



You unplug the n80, the car will still make corrections to meet target lambda.

Unplug the N80, go make a log.

Pull up Maestro, load your log and file.

Click on the Alpha N Map

Click on the drop down menu, select 02 corrections

Run the histogram using the 'Average' 

Use the data posted when the log is finished and adjust the kg/hr up or down.


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Gotta love some clear/consise instructions! :beer: Sorry If I sound stupid, but Im still learning hear in the little spare time I have lately:wave:


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Gotta love some clear/consise instructions! :beer: Sorry If I sound stupid, but Im still learning hear in the little spare time I have lately:wave:


hell man, no one knows this software inside and out yet..... its taken the power of the users group to help each other get on top of this tuning software's real potential. 

:beer:

thanks for all the great info guys!


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## vwdirector (Jan 31, 2006)

*Base Files*

Where do you get all those base files shown in the first page?


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## Maxpowerz (Feb 9, 2004)

vwdirector said:


> Where do you get all those base files shown in the first page?


click on file then load base file from the bottom menu


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## vwdirector (Jan 31, 2006)

Maxpowerz said:


> click on file then load base file from the bottom menu


So all those base files are included when you purchase eurodyne maestro 7?


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## Maxpowerz (Feb 9, 2004)

vwdirector said:


> So all those base files are included when you purchase eurodyne maestro 7?


yes, you pick your engine code and it bring up a bunch of files for it.


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## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

If you're starting from scratch.... I was able to get the correct voltage tables for the siemens/deka injectors, 830cc.










Which ends up being this.....


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## vwdirector (Jan 31, 2006)

Do you guys know if the stage 1 and 2 files are included


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## sponcar (Feb 5, 2010)

vwdirector said:


> Do you guys know if the stage 1 and 2 files are included


*Check the first post again. Your answer is in the picture attached.*


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## Maxpowerz (Feb 9, 2004)

vwdirector said:


> Do you guys know if the stage 1 and 2 files are included


it depends on the engine code, if you want tell me what code and ill check for you


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## vwdirector (Jan 31, 2006)

Maxpowerz said:


> it depends on the engine code, if you want tell me what code and ill check for you


I appreciate it, I have AWW and AWP engines


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## Maxpowerz (Feb 9, 2004)

vwdirector said:


> I appreciate it, I have AWW and AWP engines


there are 4 files for awp for stage 1 and 2
Stage1
Stage1Auto
Stage2 4bar fpr
stage2 4bar auto

took a pic for you

http://imgur.com/6K1log8


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## needlessthing (Oct 28, 2005)

have a question about tuning alpha n....

so you are suppose to data log in open loop? when trying to dial in your alpha n?

well...unplugging n80 does not force open loop. going to block 99 it still shows that it is closed loop.

going to block 99 and switching to basic settings forces open loop...but you cant data log after doing that. Switching blocks turns off block 99 and ecu goes back into closed loop.

now..i have n240 n112 and n80 all deleted and resisted....pulling the resisters doesn't do a think to open or close loop status. unless something in maestro is bypassing those keeping the ecu in closed loop. 

kinda hit a brick wall here...really need to dial in my alpha n but can not seem to get the car into open loop to log data properly.


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