# underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank?



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

i just read on eip's site that underdrive pulleys kill crank bearings?
any body know of this to be true on vrt's?


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## callawayrabbit (Mar 20, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

I've heard this on std. transmission car's but haven't heard anything about automatics since the torque converter can still act as a dampner


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## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

IIRC the theory is that using lightweight / underdrive pullies and a lightened flywheel drastically reduces bearing life. 
Supposedly the VR6 crank needs at least some weight on the ends to dampen the harmonic vibration. I could see where this would be true, even though I have no personal experience with the light pullies. 



_Modified by vr6swap at 1:57 PM 2-6-2006_


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## JPLengineer (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

THis all started when some Harvard mechanical engineer wrote a paper on how they cause irregular vibrations, which can be equal to the resonant frequency of the motor.
THis amplifies the vibration and causes faster bearing wear.
I don't think anyone has proved or disproved it. As an engineer, I can definately see this as a possibility, but I an not ME.
If you're going to turbo, I would just stay away from them. I did have them and took them off and sold them. It isn't worth it.
Turning up your boost only 0.1 lb of boost more would probably give you more performance than the pullies would.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (JPLengineer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JPLengineer* »_THis all started when some Harvard mechanical engineer wrote a paper on how they cause irregular vibrations, which can be equal to the resonant frequency of the motor.
THis amplifies the vibration and causes faster bearing wear.
I don't think anyone has proved or disproved it. As an engineer, I can definately see this as a possibility, but I an not ME.
If you're going to turbo, I would just stay away from them. I did have them and took them off and sold them. It isn't worth it.
Turning up your boost only 0.1 lb of boost more would probably give you more performance than the pullies would.

.00000000001lbs


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*

the car is boosted allready ,,i just bought it and in the process of going over everything ,,,,,


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## JPLengineer (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

Don't use the pullies,
Your car will work and feel great. Even BubonicCorrado thinks even less than 0.1 extra lbs of boost will do more. Those pullies were designed for your motor. When pullies come with your car. . IMMENSE engineering even goes into making something like that so simple. Probably one of the last parts actually made to work out vibrations.
The parts come on your car for a reason. Putting a tubo/SC is bad enough for a stock engine.
I know it is hard to let go of something after you had your heart set on it and it is another mod you can say you have, and all of that good stuff, but you got to realize that it is not the best for your car . . Is the extra 4 ft-lbs of torque at 5500 rpms worth the possbility of completely destroying your motor?
Your car will work awsome, and kick major butt without them . .I am promise you that. I used to have the Neuspeed's before I got my turbo kit. I sold them on vortex, and it was hard letting go of them b/c they seemed cool . .but once your turbo kicks in, you'll never think of them again. . .


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (JPLengineer)*

my car allready kicks major arse,,, its a 3.2 litre bottom with forged 
eagle crank h beam rods with a eip stage 2 head,,,400 whp 
like i said im going over the whole thing this car is new to me 
and im working out the bugs,,
thanks for the advice


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## JPLengineer (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

DAMN dude,
man, with an engine like that . .that is awsome, good luck with everything


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (JPLengineer)*

ya the long block was like 6k ,,,so i want to make sure it holds together....


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

i wouldnt use em. the pulley is harmonically ballanced for a reason..


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (VW1990CORRADO)*

Well, my car had pulleys before turbo. I've already changed a set of rod bearings less than a year after boosting this engine. So, that may have some impact on your decision. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Corradovr6sc (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (AAdontworkx3)*

Is a lightened flywheel on its own ok with a forced induction car in terms of engine wear?


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (Corradovr6sc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradovr6sc* »_Is a lightened flywheel on its own ok with a forced induction car in terms of engine wear?

in my opinion yes.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (VW1990CORRADO)*

yep changed them out today ,,,, i hate REMODING.....
and 339.00 for a crank pulley holy crap!!!


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (VW1990CORRADO)*

Had mine on for a couple years now and thousands of miles. Others have used them for many years with no problems. Nearly every respectuble after market company makes and sells them.


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (Scooter98144)*


_Quote »_Is a lightened flywheel on its own ok with a forced induction car in terms of engine wear?	
in my opinion yes.

Explain how a lightened flywheel is ok but a crank pulley isn't? Also no one mentioned that the start of all this was on a BMW forum and had nothing to do with VW engines or the VR6. To my knowledge anyway, I could be wrong.


_Modified by -:VW:- at 6:34 PM 2-7-2006_


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (-:VW*

If you look at the VR6 crank pulley. There is a Big peice of rubber in it. This is for vibration\harmonic dampening. The aluminum aftermarket peices do not have these.
VW would not have put them there from the factory if they didn't think the engine needed it. Car companies cut every corner possible. This obviously is not one of those corners they cut.


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*

You know what balance shafts are? They are included in engines not because the engine will rattle itself apart, but because it gives better driveability, less vibration etc. I don't think that the harmonic balancer has anything to do with the engine dying over it. Most likely it's just to cut down on vibration.
I want to know what any of this has to do with bearing life because the bearings never come in contact with the crank anyways.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*

i started this post from a warning on eip's web site that said "DO NOT USE AFTERMARKET CRANK PULLEYS ON VR6 TURBOS" THEY SAID THEY HAVE HAD LOTS OF CRANK PROBLEMS WITH THE USE OF THEM...
im just trying to be careful with my new bottom end..


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

I've had pulley's and boost on my VR for some time now. The pulleys have been on for over 18,000 miles and 8,000 of them were boosted. I'd really like to hear more input on this topic.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mechsoldier* »_You know what balance shafts are? They are included in engines not because the engine will rattle itself apart, but because it gives better driveability, less vibration etc.

Vibration kills engines. Period. There is less than .01 of an inch in between your crank and your rod bearings, with the only thing protecting them from catastrophic faliure being a thin film of oil.
You honestly don't think adding a little vibration to the crank shaft wont cause it to touch the bearings a little more than it already does
Well guess what?
It does.
Every time it even brushes the bearings, that is increased wear. Everything on your engine is balanced for a reason. Big heavy crank pulleys are used for this reason.
For a mod that does so little, and I mean like next to nothing. It's not worth taking the risk of destroying your motor.
You already have 18,000 miles with those pulleys on your car, lets say it takes about on average 1.5 min a mile, and the engine is turning at an average of 3500 RPM.
That is 94,500,000 times your engine has spun just a little bit off balance. Go ahead keep it up. I don't care about your motor. But at least you're informed now, and when your engine fails, you will have no one to blame but yourself.

_Quote »_I don't think that the harmonic balancer has anything to do with the engine dying over it. Most likely it's just to cut down on vibration.

There's a reason you balance and blueprint a motor. It's not just for horsepower. It's for longevity. When they balance and blueprint a motor. Everything gets balanced. From the flywheel to the crank pulley, and everything in between.
But you're right, you know better than EIP, you know better than VW, and you know better than the majority of the aftermarket community. 
Just because someone sells a product, doesn't mean it makes horsepower. Hell you should also go out and buy a Tornado, a fuel line magnet, and an electric supercharger. Because in my opinion pulleys fall under the same catagory.

_Quote »_I want to know what any of this has to do with bearing life because the bearings never come in contact with the crank anyways.

They start coming in contact with the crank when you add vibration aka shaking the crank.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_
Vibration kills engines. Period. There is less than .01 of an inch in between your crank and your rod bearings, with the only thing protecting them from catastrophic faliure being a thin film of oil.
You honestly don't think adding a little vibration to the crank shaft wont cause it to touch the bearings a little more than it already does
Well guess what?
It does.
Every time it even brushes the bearings, that is increased wear. Everything on your engine is balanced for a reason. Big heavy crank pulleys are used for this reason.
For a mod that does so little, and I mean like next to nothing. It's not worth taking the risk of destroying your motor.
You already have 18,000 miles with those pulleys on your car, lets say it takes about on average 1.5 min a mile, and the engine is turning at an average of 3500 RPM.
That is 94,500,000 times your engine has spun just a little bit off balance. Go ahead keep it up. I don't care about your motor. But at least you're informed now, and when your engine fails, you will have no one to blame but yourself.
There's a reason you balance and blueprint a motor. It's not just for horsepower. It's for longevity. When they balance and blueprint a motor. Everything gets balanced. From the flywheel to the crank pulley, and everything in between.
But you're right, you know better than EIP, you know better than VW, and you know better than the majority of the aftermarket community. 
Just because someone sells a product, doesn't mean it makes horsepower. Hell you should also go out and buy a Tornado, a fuel line magnet, and an electric supercharger. Because in my opinion pulleys fall under the same catagory.
They start coming in contact with the crank when you add vibration aka shaking the crank.


well said ,,, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*

Ok, no need to get angry, I'm just looking for information. I guess the question I have is has irreversable damage been done to my engine already? Does this take a long time to develope, does it happen over night? What are the symptoms that should be looked for? The pulley's were in long before the turbo, so it didn't even pop into my head at the time. I can always have them taken out. I still have the OEM pulley's. To the original poster of this thread and from a performance/power gain stand point don't bother with them you wont even notice the difference. Mine are still on because I had them put on and didn't feel like having them taken off. That may change now though.


_Modified by -:VW:- at 6:04 PM 2-8-2006_


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## oppressed (Sep 18, 2005)

6+ years with my unorthodox pullies and no bearing problems


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: (oppressed)*

Ok, lets go a step further, are you boosted, how many miles/years boosted with pulley's?


_Modified by -:VW:- at 7:07 PM 2-8-2006_


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## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

i drilled holes in my flywheel to make it light weight (i thought it couldnt hurt because its like x-drilled rotors) think all that weight loss will cause bearings to wear out prematurely?
I also drilled my underdrive pulley to lose some weight while i was at it. Think that could cause bearing problems? i assume since its like the colored light weight ones
Shaved some of the pistons skirts down too, but didnt weight them so they could be different...And put some slots in my crank so it can go through the oil better. . . think ill have vibrations?



_Modified by EternalXresT at 11:13 PM 2-8-2006_


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## nmrado (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*

Okay, I'm normally just read the forums looking for cool tips and new ideas for my 90 Corrado G60T...but I feel obligated to respond to topic of reducing weight on your own. Every piece of a reciprocating assembly, including the flywheel is/needs to be balanced to minimize vibrations. The previous post about bearing wear was dead on. I just had 6 lbs taken off my G60 flywheel by a shop. Anytime weight is taken off a flywheel, it needs to be rebalance...professionally. While you're at it, throw 'em your pressure plate and they will take care of it as one assembly. If you drill holes, not recommended, you should always have the component rebalanced. The pulley drilling may not cause much of a problem due to the smaller moment of inertia but the flywheel could cause serious wear and tear on your engine. Hope that helps.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EternalXresT* »_i drilled holes in my flywheel to make it light weight (i thought it couldnt hurt because its like x-drilled rotors) think all that weight loss will cause bearings to wear out prematurely?
I also drilled my underdrive pulley to lose some weight while i was at it. Think that could cause bearing problems? i assume since its like the colored light weight ones
Shaved some of the pistons skirts down too, but didnt weight them so they could be different...And put some slots in my crank so it can go through the oil better. . . think ill have vibrations?
_Modified by EternalXresT at 11:13 PM 2-8-2006_


omg are f-ing joking ......


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: (EternalXresT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EternalXresT* »_i drilled holes in my flywheel to make it light weight (i thought it couldnt hurt because its like x-drilled rotors) think all that weight loss will cause bearings to wear out prematurely?
I also drilled my underdrive pulley to lose some weight while i was at it. Think that could cause bearing problems? i assume since its like the colored light weight ones
Shaved some of the pistons skirts down too, but didnt weight them so they could be different...And put some slots in my crank so it can go through the oil better. . . think ill have vibrations?
_Modified by EternalXresT at 11:13 PM 2-8-2006_

thats straight supertuner style. you can actually cool the engine with the slots and drills..
you should do the next step. with the engine running take the intake boot off and slowly pour sand into it. it ports and polishs it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## EternalXresT (Jan 5, 2005)

*Re: (VW1990CORRADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW1990CORRADO* »_
with the engine running take the intake boot off and slowly pour sand into it. it ports and polishs it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I HEARD ABOUT THAT! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_
For a mod that does so little, and I mean like next to nothing. It's not worth taking the risk of destroying your motor.

You've never ran an underdrive pulley before have you

_Quote »_
That is 94,500,000 times your engine has spun just a little bit off balance. Go ahead keep it up. I don't care about your motor. But at least you're informed now, and when your engine fails, you will have no one to blame but yourself. 

Yeah at least I'm informed now







You've obviously never weighed the pistons and rods against each other before, because if you had, you wouldn't be spouting off this crap. I'm not going to bother to do the math, but a piston and rod assembly can vary from cylinder to cylinder by 10-15 grams, that doesn't seem like a lot, but do the math of the different force between the two at 6000 rpm.


_Quote »_
There's a reason you balance and blueprint a motor. It's not just for horsepower. It's for longevity. When they balance and blueprint a motor. Everything gets balanced. From the flywheel to the crank pulley, and everything in between. 

Do you even know what blueprinting is because in that whole paragraph, you never even TOUCHED on what blueprinting is.

_Quote »_
But you're right, you know better than EIP, you know better than VW, and you know better than the majority of the aftermarket community. 

As far as "the rest of the aftermarket community" you won't hear any of this BS from other makes and models, just like you won't hear them crying about not turboing maf based systems or using FMUs....


_Quote »_
Just because someone sells a product, doesn't mean it makes horsepower. 

I've experienced firsthand how an underdrive pulley can make more power on an engine, but you just keep reading your articles. Not only because they are lighter, but also since it spins the alternator at a slower speed it cuts down on counter electromagnetic force. 
All this talk about balancing and blueprinting doesn't matter anyways because that's not even the dampner's purpose anyways.
Everything cuts down on the life of your engine, if you're so worried about it, go back to stock. I've personally ran them for 20,000 miles of driving in 1 year (not boosted though) and had no problems. I haven't actually heard from anybody EVER about having a problem with them. 



_Modified by mechsoldier at 7:48 AM 2-9-2006_


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## oppressed (Sep 18, 2005)

*Re: (-:VW*

boost has nothing to do with it
5 years since i turboed my vr


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (VW1990CORRADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW1990CORRADO* »_
thats straight supertuner style. you can actually cool the engine with the slots and drills..
you should do the next step. with the engine running take the intake boot off and slowly pour sand into it. it ports and polishs it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*

Mech. When you fire your car up one morning, and you hear that consistent, knock knock knock knock, that goes up and down with RPM. Think of this post.
You can roll your eyes at me all you want, try to discredit me all you want. I'm just trying to help.
Good luck!


_Modified by BubonicCorrado at 12:06 PM 2-9-2006_


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*

Won't happen, I am running an early 8v which has a lightweight pulley from the factory


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mechsoldier* »_Won't happen, I am running an early 8v which has a lightweight pulley from the factory









Then why the **** are you responding in a VR6 thread.







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_
Then why the **** are you responding in a VR6 thread.







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

this guy is dumbass....holy pointless post jacker


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mechsoldier* »_Won't happen, I am running an early 8v which has a lightweight pulley from the factory









Then it's not "lightweight". When ppl talk about lightweight they talk about "relative to stock".
Everybody here can yell and scream at eachother but I'll never worry about lightweight pullies on a turbo vr6 motor...
There is soo much other crap you can spend your money on.
For the guy that didn't start the thread but already has the pullies on his car...I'd say be safe and pull them off...b/c you add 1lb of boost and are already over what the pullies can do for you.
Of course, I'm no engineer. But you can't go wrong with OEM stuff either (at least not when it comes to that stuff).


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (nater)*

ya, i need to pluck mine off. Just need to get a stock one and remount the crank magnet.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (AAdontworkx3)*

ya i just took mine off ,,,and the stock one new is like 300+


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

I found some more information here if anyone is interested.

_Quote »_People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels.

Here is the OEM Crank pulley from my '98 GTI-VR6.








The arrow indicates the rubber that according to some in this thread provides harmonic dampening. The rubber measures under 1/8" I do not see any type of counter balance on the pulley.
Here is the other side of the pulley.








The rubber does not continue thru to the other side. I don't think it could otherwise it would be torn apart.
I would also like to point out that we have one person in this thread that claims the pulleys destroyed his bearings. It's true that I'm sure that VW engineers designed the pulley's the way they did for a reason. They also designed the VR6 to be naturally aspirated. Do we not think that by bolting a turbo kit on an engine not meant for it with a compression ratio of 10:1 could be doing just as much if not more damage than a pulley being swapped out? 
Do we not also think that the link on EIP's website is a way to cover themselves against claims of their turbo kits causing damage like this when their bolted onto engines that may already be over the hill and failing? Also note that the link to the technical article about harmonic balancing and how pulleys are inherintly bad for engines isn't really specific to any type of engine or engine maker. I'm not claiming to be the engineer here I'm just bringing other things to light.
I would like to hear more from the person with the bearing failure on what exactly the car was being used for, how it was treated, and how much boost was being run on it. Also millage would be good to know as well as an idea of how long the turbo was run for. There's too many vaugeries in general in a lot of the posts on this site, too much information left out of the picture to draw any kind of conclusion.


_Modified by -:VW:- at 9:24 PM 2-9-2006_


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (-:VW*

I'm not a pointless jacker, you're full of **** and so I joined in.....there's no basis for the claims that have been made, EIP said something and you jumped on their dick. VR6's aren't magical, they're an engine just like any other. And by the way, they don't MAKE a lightweight pulley for my engine because it weighs like less than a pound....That's why I called it lightweight, just like TT bought a bunch of MK4 lifters and started selling them as lightweight









Don't worry about it :VW: the people in this thread aren't speaking from experience, they aren't qualified to comment on this **** anyways. They're being desk racers. If you want to run it then run it. You aren't going to have a problem.


_Modified by mechsoldier at 9:11 PM 2-9-2006_


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## xanthus (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*

First problem here, I dont think may people even know the full purpose of a harmonic balancer.
"The harmonic balancer, or vibration damper, is a device connected to the crankshaft to lessen the torsional vibration. When the cylinders fire, power gets transmitted through the crankshaft. The front of the crankshaft takes the brunt of this power, so it often moves before the rear of the crankshaft. This causes a twisting motion. Then, when the power is removed from the front, the halfway twisted shaft unwinds and snaps back in the opposite direction. Although this unwinding process is quite small, it causes "torsional vibration." To prevent this vibration, a harmonic balancer is attached to the front part of the crankshaft that's causing all the trouble. The balancer is made of two pieces connected by rubber plugs, spring loaded friction discs, or both. When the power from the cylinder hits the front of the crankshaft, it tries to twist the heavy part of the damper, but ends up twisting the rubber or discs connecting the two parts of the damper. The front of the crank can't speed up as much with the damper attached; the force is used to twist the rubber and speed up the damper wheel. This keeps the crankshaft operation calm."
So, dumping the dampiner on SC engines is not as big of a deal. For turbo guys, in the long run, you will be causing damage.. however, your lightweight flywheels will cause an equal ammount of damage because the rotational assembily and harmonic balancer are designed for a specific weight. If that idea and theory were true, then we would see many more rear main seal failures, which doesn't happen.... 
In resolution, instead of my vr6 running to 300K miles it will only live to 250K.. whoopie! At that point it will need a rebuild anyways.
More e-muscles.. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (xanthus)*

exactly


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*

Well. my motor has 22k miles on it right now. I run a built VR and at the time the rod bearing failied, i was only running .55bar with 15k. Originally, the car was all motor with pulley. After rebuilding the bottom end i went boost. My worry is that the crank magnet could possibly be the "offset" in weight. It was not originally put on there and was added during the Tec3 install (during all motor days). To this day, i believe it over revved ... the head is in fact a BVH which, before boost, was regularly taken to 7400rpms. When i tore the bottom end apart, #1 bearing was worn unevenly and had a slight crack across it. The rest were fine. I also run a autotech L/W flywheel and saw no problems at that end of the crank. 
Now, after replacing rod bearings with OEMs, I push a consistent 1.1bar daily and shift around 6800. I haven't had a problem since and continue to push my car to its imaginery limits. This thread has brought new light to my past problem, but proves nothing to me... even after reading the EIP site, members post, and internet searching. I feel even more confused.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mechsoldier* »_I'm not a pointless jacker, you're full of **** and so I joined in.....there's no basis for the claims that have been made, EIP said something and you jumped on their dick. VR6's aren't magical, they're an engine just like any other. And by the way, they don't MAKE a lightweight pulley for my engine because it weighs like less than a pound....That's why I called it lightweight, just like TT bought a bunch of MK4 lifters and started selling them as lightweight








Don't worry about it :VW: the people in this thread aren't speaking from experience, they aren't qualified to comment on this **** anyways. They're being desk racers. If you want to run it then run it. You aren't going to have a problem.

_Modified by mechsoldier at 9:11 PM 2-9-2006_

ok first off,,,
1 you jacked the post
2 ive been a vw mechanic for 10 years
3 i own my own shop and do this every day ,(no desk involved)
4 this topic is up in the air 
5 i removed mine to be safe 
6 my long block cost 6k to build and id rather be safe than sorry
7 stop acting like a dick http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
8 if you opened a magazine in the last six months (pvw) (eurotuner)
my cars in it


_Modified by dtm337 at 9:13 AM 2-10-2006_


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

....


_Modified by -:VW:- at 5:53 AM 2-10-2006_


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

Look my point was just that it hasn't been proven, if you want to do it then fine, that's up to you. But the one or two cases where somebody screwed up their main bearing and happened to be running a underdrive pulley hardly justify telling everybody that you shouldn't run them. That's all. Sorry about being a dick


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*

thats ok ,,,i have so much loot into this project ,,,id hate to see it die so soon.


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## the awesome (Oct 7, 2003)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (mechsoldier)*

ive been reading various threads and doing research....it seems that companies that offer them unorthodox, neuspeed, euro sport (which is pretty reputable, raffi the owner is active in motorsports) say that our cranks are balanced from the factory and do not use pulleys for balance...i know u might suggest they're just pushing their product, but these are reputable companies...this makes sense, i know w/ 1.8Ts people have had the crank out an proved this, as well as proven the pulley is not counter weighted or balanced...so the question is does the rubber do anything? its seems like its a 50/50 split some swear it does nothing, some say its necessary...there is a few w/ over 100k hard miles chipped on 1.8T's w/ no issues..i know its not a vr but laws of physics would lead to the vr being a smoother, more balanced motor do to its v (although minimal) and and additional cylinders.....i think its more of a is it worth the 230 bux? if they were on my car id probably leave them, if not, they would be one of my last mods if i did them at all


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_thats ok ,,,i have so much loot into this project ,,,id hate to see it die so soon.









$18k from ebay


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (nater)*

omgthisthreadroxorz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (VW1990CORRADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW1990CORRADO* »_
$18k from ebay










wow rick u are a real a$$-hole.... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Modified by dtm337 at 5:50 PM 2-10-2006_


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (dtm337)*

why? i am sorry if you think that. i was just stating a fact..? sorry boss.


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (VW1990CORRADO)*


_Quote »_ I run a built VR

Woah! So.... you had it all apart and put back together. Could it be possilbe that something wasn't assembled or balanced properly inside the engine in all that? I don't think it's a coincidence that this bearing failure happened after you had the engine built, and with all that internal work done I don't think you've got a case by blaming the pulley. Just my .02$.


_Modified by -:VW:- at 4:35 PM 2-10-2006_


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

What happened to this forum? 
The lighting forum kinda went the same way too...
Kind of depressing...
The technical forums used to be a place to go to get information and get FAIRLY unbiased and at the very least, "un-sarcastic" information.
Now everybody is like beatin' the $hit out of each other via their keyboard.
If you were all standing around in a parking lot kicking tires you wouldn't be talking all this crap...
At least I don't think you would.


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: (nater)*

Nater, just let it be at this point. Posting something like that is just going to bring more unecessary posts into this thread. Just ignore it and keep your posts on topic.
Back on topic.
Now in order for that OEM pulley to dampen wouldn't the rubber insert have to run all the way through the pulley? The way it's made the pulley is still one solid piece of metal, no?


_Modified by -:VW:- at 6:40 PM 2-10-2006_


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: underdrive pulleys = dead vr6 crank? (-:VW*


_Quote, originally posted by *-:VW:-* »_Woah! So.... you had it all apart and put back together. Could it be possilbe that something wasn't assembled or balanced properly inside the engine in all that? I don't think it's a coincidence that this bearing failure happened after you had the engine built, and with all that internal work done I don't think you've got a case by blaming the pulley. Just my .02$.

_Modified by -:VW:- at 4:35 PM 2-10-2006_

Yes, a built VR on Tec 3 and methanol. I believe what you say.. like i posted before man. I think it was me over-revving it. Regardless of how it was assembled; I know that it's failure was directly related with to my heavy foot. I was just curious if the pulley played a part in its failure.. because like i said, the crank magnet is mounted on a L/W pulley... may have had a hand in it. Oh well, its fixed and now i have no problems what so ever.


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## Feanor (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: (-:VW*


_Quote, originally posted by *-:VW:-* »_Nater, just let it be at this point. Posting something like that is just going to bring more unecessary posts into this thread. Just ignore it and keep your posts on topic.
Back on topic.
Now in order for that OEM pulley to dampen wouldn't the rubber insert have to run all the way through the pulley? The way it's made the pulley is still one solid piece of metal, no?

_Modified by -:VW:- at 6:40 PM 2-10-2006_

Aren't you rather new to be telling Nate how it is? He's been around longer that you have, so he should know.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: (Feanor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Feanor* »_Aren't you rather new to be telling Nate how it is? He's been around longer that you have, so he should know.

Relax man... there is no rank system or chain of command here. Nate started out just like the rest of us.


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## Feanor (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: (AAdontworkx3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AAdontworkx3* »_
Relax man... there is no rank system or chain of command here. Nate started out just like the rest of us.









Don't tell me to relax!


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: (Feanor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Feanor* »_Don't tell me to relax!









Relax puto


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## Feanor (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: (AAdontworkx3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AAdontworkx3* »_
Relax puto
 
Nice! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (Feanor)*

ok so back on topic ,,,,why would eip say that? i mean they sell pullies and turbo kits?,,,,i guess well never know ,,, and maybe the rubber dosent have to go all the way through to dampen some vibration?


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote »_ they sell pullies and turbo kits? and maybe the rubber dosent have to go all the way through to dampen some vibration?

That doesn't mean they can be used together necessarily. Have you called EIP and asked I haven't seen any rep's from EIP step into this thread. I don't think were going to get any more info out of this thread though, not with theway it's gone thus far. In seeing what I've seen in this thread maybe Vortex should start a separate forum for people who just want to yell at each other. 


_Modified by -:VW:- at 8:15 AM 2-11-2006_


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (-:VW*


_Quote, originally posted by *-:VW:-* »_
That doesn't mean they can be used together necessarily. Have you called EIP and asked I haven't seen any rep's from EIP step into this thread. I don't think were going to get any more info out of this thread though, not with theway it's gone thus far. In seeing what I've seen in this thread maybe Vortex should start a separate forum for people who just want to yell at each other. 

_Modified by -:VW:- at 8:15 AM 2-11-2006_

i havent called eip but its on the web site as a flag next to the mk4 kit


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## stuntman213 (Sep 28, 2004)

I am building a VR6 turbo right now and I am staying with the stock damper because of a few reasons: I am having the whole rotating assembly balanced with it because high rpm is when harmonic vibrations can do the most damage, You can actually break the crank by taking to much weight off either side (teacher races hes done it), and lastly you get more torque high rpm with the stock weight


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## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (stuntman213)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stuntman213* »_I am building a VR6 turbo right now and I am staying with the stock damper because of a few reasons: I am having the whole rotating assembly balanced with it because high rpm is when harmonic vibrations can do the most damage, You can actually break the crank by taking to much weight off either side (teacher races hes done it), and lastly you get more torque high rpm with the stock weight

Are you balancing the flywheel with the crank??? Are you balancing the pulling with the crank?? 
Do you really think that VW balances each and evrey crank pulley they put on each motor?? For those that went out and bought a new crank pulley have you pulled out your rotating assembly so that everything can be balanced together? 
To each their own but I like lightweight stuff. Oh yeah If you just slap on a flywheel and don't have it balanced, how do you think your car will like that


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (Not4show)*

i think the point of this post is to agree or not ,,,that the oem crank pulley
has some sort of damping characteristics...


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## QuickK03Crap (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: (dtm337)*

I have a 1.8t so I'm sure this won't get taken into account, but........, I put pullies on at less than 1K miles on my 03's motor. I'm now at 113K miles. Yeah, I don't make a whole lot of power, but I do a lot of drag racing and even a few road courses. The compression on the motor is perfect, nothing crazy in the oil analysis, and when I sell the shortblock soon, I'll have the next person take a pic of the bearings when they pull it apart. IMO, the stock pulley that you guys are calling a dampener is bonded with rubber just for noise vibration and harshness control, just like the dual mass flywheels. It's to make our luxurious German cars feel smooth. Someone in a similar thread put the stock 1.8t pulley on a balancer and it was off. lol


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## stuntman213 (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: (Not4show)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Not4show* »_
Are you balancing the flywheel with the crank??? Are you balancing the pulling with the crank?? 
Do you really think that VW balances each and evrey crank pulley they put on each motor?? For those that went out and bought a new crank pulley have you pulled out your rotating assembly so that everything can be balanced together? 
To each their own but I like lightweight stuff. Oh yeah If you just slap on a flywheel and don't have it balanced, how do you think your car will like that









The entire rotating assembly gets balanced thats flywheel, bolts, crank, pistons, damper(pulley), rods. Because of the damage high rpm can do with harmonic vibrations.
If you have ever pulled apart the motor you will realize that It was all balanced there are drilled holes in the crank counter weights and even some in the damper.
I am not saying everyone will balance a rotating assembley hell most people on here wouldnt do it during a build but just because a company sells a product doesnt mean it wont cause harm


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## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (stuntman213)*

I've had a few VR's none of them have had a balanced crank pulley, motor is not balanced with it from factory. My current build will spin 10k so yes it will be balanced, just for the extra safe factor. But saying that a a lightwieght pulley is the cause of bearing failure??? HMM, sounds more like CYA stuff to me. besides EIP's write up about pullies is more after the inline 6 bmw motor in which the crank pulley does work as part of the balancing part of the motor.


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## LTony81 (Nov 26, 2004)

I just took mine off after reading this post.


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## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (LTony81)*

its all a bunch of crap...
I've had a 10lb flywheel and a turn2 pulley combo on 4 different motors and never a problem..... even on boosted motors....
I will say that the gains from the parts are next to nothing... they just make rev matching a little easier... not worth the money when you can just up the boost 1 lb or add cams and gain double/triple what pulleys and a flywheel would unlock....
It's something thats not really worth the money unless your building an NA car.... theres other things to spend money on with a FI car.....

Take the same money and put it into either maintinence, a wideband, or in a jar for standalone savings


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