# VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 dyno problem....



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem....*

Im not sure if you guys have heard about the incar logging system Mr.Dyno before?
A friend of mine have used it for a long time, and done alot off consise and accurate dyno runs with it.
So last night we where out on the road trying to dyno my car in 4th gear at 1.5 bar "21.7" PSI.
Exhaust is 3" DP with this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MPE-59959/
straight 3" all the way, until the silencer at the back that have a 2.5" Intake. 0.23 gapped BKR7e. 93 octan fuel.
AFR was 11.5-12.0 all the way. 
From 6000 rpm to 7000 takes forever compared to 5000-6000. Like it hits a peak at 6000 rpm.

And its like the rev limiter hits around 6800 rpm. The car shuts off, and I need to wait until it goes down to around 5000 rpm before I can give more throtle again.
I have a R32 gearbox and are running 215/40-17" tires. So its a very short gear ratio.



_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 2:16 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

334 whp and 340wtq at 21.7 psi is what we managed to get








So something is very wrong here.
_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 4:30 PM 10-28-2009_


_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 4:31 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

Im kind of having the same issue, at around the same RPM it seems that the car misfires a bit and takes while to reach 7200rpm. I gapped my plugs to .022 and used the bkr8e plugs and it seemed to help. I also use the T4 1.06 housing. Are you sure your AFR is at 11.8? Bc mine was at low 11s at one point, and it would act as if it was misfiring due to blowing the spark out.


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

you also have to realize, that 1.06 housing at 21psi hits full boost around 5000rpm, and then it will level out around 6200ish rpm, at least it did on my dyno graph and you will notice that it will take a little longer after its hit peak torque and rpm. 
But 320whp at 21psi sucks...i made 315whp at 7psi and 509whp at 20psi so something is definitly wrong...


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

I hit full boost at 4800 rpm. It pulls like crazy, but im not impressed.
Can it be the gear ratio vs software setup?
It runs on the C2 Pro-Maf 63#.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

What were the EGTs?
Cat and 2.5" back box presenting a restriction?
I had a 3" cat on mine and the AFRs turbo VR6s run killed it and blocked it very quickly.


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

It was a little more than that: 334whp and 340wtq, but still seems a little low.
Very similar to what a 450hp I5 20vt puts to all four wheels.


_Modified by Espen W at 3:27 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Espen W)*

whatever you are using to measure hp might not be accurate. It might actually be putting down more than you think. I can hit 20ish psi at 4800 as well and that seems about right for your setup


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

Numbers are usually spot on with a correctly calibrated Mustang Dyno. Made by the same folks, actually. Chipped VR6 with 2.9 Throttle body puts down a little under 160whp. Chipped 1.8TQ puts down 166whp, stock RS2 around 260whp.


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (Espen W)*

We first assumed it was traction limited at peak hp in 4th, but that was not the case. It could sustain 0.51G before slipping at peak torque in 3rd. In 4th, it would not spin, with a peak G of 0.47 at peak torque and 0.39G at peak power, so not traction limited at all in 4th.
Would be interesting to see graphs with a similar setup off a correctly calibrated Mustang or Dyno Dynamics (ie. not set up to read Dyno Jet numbers)


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

Almost sounds like a bad fuel pump but your AFR's are not showing it. What kind of plugs are you running?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (Espen W)*

I have pdf files showinome graphs, but I have trouble posting them








Espen: The whp number was sae corrected ? The Vag-Com logging seemed to be fine, with no Red-ALARM readings








Anyway, its very low numbers and I really cant understand why.

Try the car with just a straight pipe after dp...








Then I know its not a exhaust issue.


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: (Espen W)*

i may have a mustang dyno of my 20psi pull, id have to find it and scan it


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (KubotaPowered)*

0.23 gapped BKR7e plugs.
AFR's are fine, but I suspect a spark problem, seems like it misfires at high rpm. 
I'll post the power/torque plots if I can figure out how to post a pdf file here?


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Espen W)*

i had the same issue, try some new plugs and see if that will help


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (KubotaPowered)*

New NGK bkr7e 0.23
Bosch 044 has been screaming like crazy since I got it, back in 2007.
Its bought from Vems, and they said it was the oem 044, not a replica.
Maybe stock fuelpump is not working as it should?
In that case, what good pump can I install in the tank, that bolts "ok" to mk3?


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_
Espen: The whp number was sae corrected ? The Vag-Com logging seemed to be fine, with no Red-ALARM readings










Yep, SAE corrected for temperature and humidity (sea level and barometric was at 1013mb).


_Modified by Espen W at 5:54 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

your using a 044 after the stock one???
i use an in tank 044 and it works just fine, 60psi of pressure feeding ID 1000's with -6 AN to the rail...it could definitly be a fueling problem, i had a problem with the stock fuel lines after 20psi and had to upgrade to the -6


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

Also, what management are you using?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (KubotaPowered)*

If someone have graphs off 18-25 psi VR6 Turbo's, please post it. And write what management is used. Thanx
We will get dyno pictures up soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.SLEEPYDUB.* »_Also, what management are you using?

C2 stage 4 Pro maf. 
Kinetic intercooler setup.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.SLEEPYDUB.* »_your using a 044 after the stock one???
i use an in tank 044 and it works just fine, 60psi of pressure feeding ID 1000's with -6 AN to the rail...it could definitly be a fueling problem, i had a problem with the stock fuel lines after 20psi and had to upgrade to the -6

Intresting.
044 after the stock, YEP. Stock lines and rail.
So -6an lines should be a fair upgrade.


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

You need to get rid of the stock pump, it IS restricting the fuel flow.
With stock lines and just an 044 pump my car saw 60psi of fuel until i saw 20psi of boost, then it would restrict down to about 40psi...
When i ran -6 lines from the pump to the fuel rail i saw 60psi and up all the way to 28psi of boost http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Stock lines and pump are restrictive after 450whp


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

I can tell you that the stock lines and pump with just a Walbro will make more than 450whp, I did 577whp with just an in line pump. I have spoken to Kristian many times while he was setting up his drivetrain and the setup is almost identical except he has an 02M. He should be capable of the same numbers that my set up is, we just have to find out what is making his car bonk out.


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (KubotaPowered)*

Hmm...
Can you data log and post up on here?


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

I would like to see what the fuel pressures are doing as well when boost and RPMs go up. Like I said, I don't think its a pump issue as the AFRs stay right where they need to be but its something to rule out


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (KubotaPowered)*

I will be back with some graphs.
How many feet of an-6 lines would I need? And what fittings/brand should I get?


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (Norwegian-VR6)*

jeez...um, i cant remember how much i used, i want to say i ordered 12 feet but didnt use it all


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

Bigger lines is not a bad idea, but fueling is not an issue here, as AFR stays in the 11's and low 12's (assuming that all cylinders are running at that AFR, of course).
Not only is hp missing, but torque as well, with approx 340wtq, and that is definitely not fuel related.

Also, definitely gains to be had with a proper enclosure/shield for the filter. Ambient temp was 37F, temperature at the surface of the filter was 77F during cruise, but stayed at 90F+ for a long time after a stop. Not good. IAT was at 65F during cruise/boost onset, but a heat shield would drop that considerably. The IC works, but the turbo has to work harder, increasing charge temps and increasing back pressure when it has to compress air that is 40-60F above ambient.



_Modified by Espen W at 6:18 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 Turbo 02M GT35 1.06 Pro-Maf dyno problem.... (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

12 feet.. Its not the biggest cost anyway. 
If someone have any idea of clamps to use on fuelrail and pump, chime in.
Weiss should know something about what I need??
Car feels fine when driving normal. No issues. 
And Espen: We didnt have any fault codes with Vag-Com either?

Vacum setup:
1. Hose from 38mm Tial "6psi" spring" to Kinetic mbc. 
2. From mbc to a T
3. From the T, one hose goes into the Forge 007 w/yellow spring.
4. From the T, second hose goes into the SRI.


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

A few codes, but it was basically max revs exceeded and lack of speed signal for the speedo


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Espen W)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Espen W* »_A few codes, but it was basically max revs exceeded and lack of speed signal for the speedo

Couldn't the lack of speedo signal mess up the maps?


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (Espen W)*

Fuel quality, spark knock, ignition retard. Try again with race gas and air to fuel logs.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
Couldn't the lack of speedo signal mess up the maps? 
 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
Couldn't the lack of speedo signal mess up the maps? 

Possibly. However, we had boost and fuel, and the timing looked OK in real time (didn't log, but will do)
The ECU takes road speed and rpm in order to determine what gear is being used. I think worst case is rev limiter at the wrong place, however, that would be a lot more abrubt than this, and it still would not explain the relatively low torque figure.


_Modified by Espen W at 7:03 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: (Espen W)*

Whats the ignition timing under boost?


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

Dropped to approx 15 at peak torque and increased from there. Need to do some logging.
Even if it had stayed at 15 we should have seen more power than we did.


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: (Espen W)*

i bet that 2.5" intake he mentioned isnt helping the car any...what turbo is it?


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

Turbo is GT35R 1.06 a/r


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (Espen W)*

Here is he graph:


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

i dont think it is your fuel lines that makes the problem, i made 539 hp with stock lines bmw m5 in tank..and a seriel 255 bosch under the car..







tjeck your cams..lift at ot, if they are just a half teeth out of timing you will lose 100 hp at that boost level


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: (Espen W)*

man you havent even seen what that turbos capable of yet!!








I dont know what to tell you about that graph man, seems like you got a problem that could be a number of things. With 20psi and that large of a turbo you may want to run a slightly colder plug, id recommend the bkr8e gapped to .022-.026 and you need to get a larger intake than what you have, 4" is what id go with minimum, i bet thats choking it down. 
And with a dyno graph like that, i bet the afr is all over the place


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (Espen W)*

I think there was a misunderstanding regarding the "intake".
Kristian mentioned that his rear muffler is a 2.5" (where the pipe enters the muffler), not the actual air intake.
Induction side is plenty big on this car.
AFRs looked spot on, and even if they had been somewhat off, they would not affect power this much.
I'm thinking timing or spark issues. We will get some timing logs done soon.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Espen W)*

That 2.5inch rear muffler is way to small.
even 225hp audi TT use 2.75 inch OEM
Remove the muffler.

BUT it doesent solve why it falls off like that.
Fuel or ignition.

check ms duty cycle


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

like i said, same thing happened to me and one of the problems was one of the plugs was gapped to .008







causing a huge misfire...reason it was like that was bc the tuner who put them in must have dropped the sparkplug in the hole and just threaded it in causing it to close


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

3" exhaust is a MUST for this setup...?when you take away the 2,5" muffler,you will see faster spool up and higher boost without touching the boostcontroller..


----------



## Espen W (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

Yeah, no idea why Kristian was running that muffler, I'm sure that he'll get that sorted.
Interesting note about exhaust size, though:
On my Audi RS2, I run the stock 2.75" downpipe (with stock dual metal cats and 3" catback)
I still make over 400awhp, so more than 500 at the crank. What is even more interesting is that this is on E85, and that creates approx 30% more exhaust volume than gasoline, and thus would be expected to get choked from the 2.75" downpipe at far lower hp levels than that.


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

what helps you with e85 is ,lower temp and lower backpressure even at higher timing. even on a 400hp vr6t 2,5" makes backpressure

_Modified by VR6-GT42RS at 2:00 PM 10-28-2009_


_Modified by VR6-GT42RS at 2:02 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

Thank you guys so much for the intrest you have for my problem. And a big thanx to Espen W for his knowledge and can do attitude. 
Your Audi RS2 is a killer car, that really have everything http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Im not sure if my vacum is hooked up right. But that is not the issue here I guess. 
The Simons rear muffler is 2.5" 
So logging/dyno the car with straight 3" pipes is an option.
I re-checked the gap on the 7e's before they was mounted.
I have a set off new Bosch F5DPOR and a set off new Bosch F2CS that I can try.


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*

Kristian, the exhaust is the least of your concerns at this point in time. Run some logs on timing pull, note when the timing starts being pulled back I.E. at what RPM the timing is being retarded.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_Kristian, the exhaust is the least of your concerns at this point in time. Run some logs on timing pull, note when the timing starts being pulled back I.E. at what RPM the timing is being retarded.

John, we will check it. Low numbers and correct AFR is strange ? Pretty new coilpack and new mk4 12V wires. 
Love the driveability, and the Pro-Maf is a really good upgrade from the 4" C2 MAF. 
I feel that the R32 02M is to short. 2900 rpm at 60mph is not what you want. But the gear shift is butter http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 12:14 AM 10-29-2009_

_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 12:16 AM 10-29-2009_


_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 12:21 AM 10-29-2009_


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*

I agree, I do not like the 02M for that reason, they rev out too quickly, hell I would like a 4 speed for a boost car with a big turbo, let it rev out and have more time in gear making power rather than shifting. It sounds like its a timing issue, maybe a load issue as well within the ECU because of the intermittent speedo signal. Maybe PM Jeff Atwood and see if he has any insight


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_I agree, I do not like the 02M for that reason, they rev out too quickly, hell I would like a 4 speed for a boost car with a big turbo, let it rev out and have more time in gear making power rather than shifting. It sounds like its a timing issue, maybe a load issue as well within the ECU because of the intermittent speedo signal. Maybe PM Jeff Atwood and see if he has any insight

In Europe mk4 came in 1998 as 2.8 24V 4Motion.
The gearbox code was 02M DRP.
DRP have a very nice ratio "fits mk3", and is the strongest 02M made that ive read about.
MK3 have 3 signal cabels to the speed sensor. 02M have the same. What cabel that works with who, I dont know. But it cant be more than 9 diffrent ways?


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_I have a set off new Bosch F5DPOR 

i made less power on those plugs over the NGk...just fyi


----------



## S3.2 (Sep 19, 2009)

*Re: (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

I think there is too much lag there.
Stupid but did you press-check your I/C pipes for leaking?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (S3.2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *S3.2* »_I think there is too much lag there.
Stupid but did you press-check your I/C pipes for leaking?

You have a good point here, cause nothing is pressure tested. I have been going thru the hole system alot of times, just to check all the clamps. But im going to try the car without the 2.5" muffler... If that doesnt work, I will take the Magnaflow race-cat off and run the car with straight pipe's.


----------



## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

yeah you would think when you hit the point when the signal dies fro the speedo the timing immediatly retards...


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (GLI_jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLI_jetta* »_yeah you would think when you hit the point when the signal dies fro the speedo the timing immediatly retards...

Ok? The speedo is not up and running yet. It is 3 wires, and I havent found out witch is what yet. Vag-Com has a fault code on it.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*

i know that position 1 in space W on your fusebox (the back of it) has the VSS wire that feeds the ECU. 
make sure its plugged in. i had odd dyno issues when i had my VSS code a while back.
my car is a swap car.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Thanx to C2Motorsports.co.uk the speedo is up and running. Rev limiter is working as it should.
The 2.5" exhaust muffler is long gone, for a 3" in/out Vibram.
Just waiting on some new parts for the KW2 suspension, and we should be ok.
Gonna be funny to drive the car again.


_Modified by Norwegian-VR6 at 4:19 PM 4-25-2010_


----------

