# timing problems



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i have a '95 jetta gl 5speed and have replaced the water pump and timing belt. i took the old timing belt off with all the markings alined correctly and goto put the new belt on and the crank isnt lining up with the mark on the timing cover? i have read all the stuff on getting everything right but the crank still wont line up right, i did a search and read all of those too but still having problems.


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: timing problems (67vwdub)*

So how off is it, have you tried a tooth more or a tooth less?
Could it be that your cover is damaged, or he mark on the camshaft is moved?
Does it align with the mark on the flywheel?
Good luck. Keep posting.


----------



## mk4_2.ho (Sep 23, 2004)

*Re: timing problems (67vwdub)*

forget the timing cover, pull the inspection plug on the trans and use the flywheel marks. MUCH more reliable.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

it doesnt align with the flywheel either. and i dont think my cover is damaged and i think im a tooth off. i moved it a tooth and its still off


----------



## FL 2.0L (Aug 1, 2002)

Is the tab on the back of the crank gear good?


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

the crank gear is good, its tight and no play. the timing mark on my cam is pointing on the edge of the O almost in the middle where it needs to be, and the flywheel mark is not even close


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

Are you SURE, you're looking at the correct mark on the flywheel? The 0TDC mark is actually only a slight "dimple" about an inch away from the mark that looks like a gear tooth sticking up (for some special VW tool). That dimple needs to be under the "arrow" in the inspection hole on the bellhousing. Next make sure the cam sprocket timing mark is dead on with the arrow on the plastic inspection cover backing plate. Lastly, the oil pump/distributor gear in the middle gets rotated until the rotor is parallel with the hall sensor on the distributor base and the rotor is pointing at cylinder 1. Check Dan Reed's page for doing the timing belt for visuals on where the marks are and what they look like. It takes a little patience since one or more of the gears likes to move a skosh when you slide on the belt and tensioner. Having a couple of spring clamps to hold the belt on the cam/crank sprockets helps a lot to keep things still while you're fiddling with the tensioner.
If you're off by a tooth or two, it will run like poo.
Good luck!


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

yes i saw both marks on the flywheel and they are not under the pointer, i even mover the dizzy so it was parallel and i saw still off so i moved it back and my mark for the timing is almost in the middle but its on the edge of the O side of the gear


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

Well, you need to make sure those three items line up as I described or you'll have problems.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i tried everything and cant seem to get them all to line up


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: (67vwdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *67vwdub* »_i tried everything and cant seem to get them all to line up

Why not? Take off the belt. Move them to the desired positions, then replace the belt. What's the big deal? 
Best,


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: timing problems (67vwdub)*

Write us what kind of tenssioner your engine have, or what is the thing keeping U from aligning the pulleys. Is it the pulleys moving while you get the belt on?
Post please.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i had taken the belt off and on a dozen times, i moved everything where it needs to be and im still off. the only pully that moves is the intermediate , im only off by a half a tooth, its the regular tens not the adjustable one


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

will try to post some pics of all the markings tomorrow afternoon


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

*align the crank first*

*then set the timing sprokets* (this is closest I got)

*distributor rotor should lign up with marking*


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

Half a tooth off should be OK. When you rotate the engine by hand (twice), does the mark remain within the same 1/2 tooth distance? If so, you're probably OK. Try starting it up before you reinstall all the accessories and pulleys and make sure it runs. If it's too far off, you'll get a check engine light with "implausible camshaft sensor output" or somesuch. If it seems to idle OK and there's no CEL, button her back up and you're done.
Also, you probably know this already, but make sure you change the tensioner too.








Cheers,



_Modified by JCousteau at 7:19 AM 12-31-2009_


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: (JCousteau)*

http://i833.photobucket.com/al...0.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...9.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...7.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...1.jpg
hope thses pics work, if they do sorry they blurry best i can do. but thats how my marks are lined up and you can the flywheel is not even close


----------



## Cee-dub (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: (67vwdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *67vwdub* »_


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

The problem may that harmonic balancers slip sometimes. Go with the flywheel marking thru the peek hole. If completely lost, you need to find true TDC with a tool that screws into the spark plug hole.
Use macro setting (flower icon) on your camera and don't zoom in for clearer pictures.


_Modified by jorge r at 2:59 PM 12-31-2009_


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i dont think my balancer slipped, cuz the gear is tight no play. if i go with the mark on the flywheel then im way off then before. could the flywheel be installed wrong too?


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

I don't recall about VW but there should be a rubber section between the pulley and inner part that may go bad and slip, causing the itming mark on it to move.
Edit:
http://i902.photobucket.com/al...a.jpg
This is what I expect to find as the front pulley, notice the rubber section between the inner and outer sides.

_Modified by jorge r at 3:42 PM 12-31-2009_


_Modified by jorge r at 3:45 PM 12-31-2009_


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i never knew the rubber could make the mark slip but i will check it but dont think it did


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

It doesn't slip but some have


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

how do you know if it has slipped?


----------



## silentsee4 (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

Not to thread jack but i am having the same problem on my AEG after timing belt replacement. please check it out.


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

A TDC stop tool can be used to find tdc if you're having a problem finding it by the markings. The tool is installed in the No.1 spark plug hole and crank is carefuly turned by hand as to not damage the piston top until the tool meets the piston top, mark the pulley or elsewhere convenient. Then turn the crank the opposite direction until the tool meets the piston again and stops the crank. Make another marking. The midpoint between the two marks is TDC. 
A stationary reference point is required for the first marking, a wire is sometimes used as an indicator for a reference point, the wire is attached and placed stationary pointing near the pulley or a rotating part of the crank.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp+Cams/249/4792/10002/-1








I don't know if your marks have slipped or what. You use your best judgement in detemining what's going on. I'm guessing if you cant match TDC and timing marks, the harmonic balancer has slipped. 
I use the making on the flywheel, it works for me. I never have used the crank pulley side for timing my ABA.


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: timing problems (67vwdub)*

You can get an idea of how close or far the timing mark on the crank TDC is by inserting a feeler rod in thru the no1 spark plug hole and feel the piston come up and stop rising before going back down.
Don't damage the piston top by using force on it with any objects.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

if it has slipped my balancer will still be fine right, no need to replace it?


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

I don't know if it's a harmonic balancer for sure or a solid piece. I go with Murphy's law and replace it for reliability and keepsake.


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

If I were you, I'd completely ignore what's on the crank pulley and go by the mark on the flywheel. On mine, when it was done and in time, the little mark on the crank pulley was next to the timing mark on the oil pump/distributor gear. So that would put the little tic on the crank pulley at like 2 o'clock.
I was feeling frisky today yesterday and decided to fix my exhaust manifold gasket leak. Shoulda just left it alone...one of the studs snapped in the head. Sigh...I was so disgusted I just left it overnight soaking in pb blaster and will look at it again in a little while. 
Good luck!


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

when i use the mark on the flywheel thats where the crank lines up with the dimple on the intermedite gear like for the 1.8t in my book.
good luck on your exhaust


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (JCousteau)*

oh no


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

will post new picures of the markings tonite


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

these are my new marks when i line up the flywheel.
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...9.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...6.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...4.jpg
http://i833.photobucket.com/al...1.jpg


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

That seems right.
The alignment of the crank pulley with the distributor shaft pulley is only for 1.8L engines.
Have you started it? How does it sound?


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

no i havent started it yet, prolly try it tomorrow


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: (67vwdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *67vwdub* »_these are my new marks when i line up the flywheel.


That looks perfect. Exactly how mine looked. 
Best,


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

You'll probably have to move the distributor a bit to ease the idle, but no sure the timing there. I think is 12 degrees BTDC, but not sure. Mine was 5 degrees BTDC, but it's a digifant 1 '97 mk3 (Guatemala market).
Ask around just to be sure.
Good luck. Keep posting.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

when you time yours you time it looking at the flywheel mark with the timing light?


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

That's correct. Although I don't know if there's a mark for the correct ignition advance for your managment system.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

yea im not sure either but i will find out when i start it. i wanna try and get this old green coolant out first so i can put back the blue stuff


----------



## JCousteau (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: (cwcabrio)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cwcabrio* »_You'll probably have to move the distributor a bit to ease the idle, but no sure the timing there. I think is 12 degrees BTDC, but not sure. Mine was 5 degrees BTDC, but it's a digifant 1 '97 mk3 (Guatemala market).
Ask around just to be sure.
Good luck. Keep posting.

Actually, no. You do NOT need to touch the distributor. The ECU can (and will deal with the timing) so long as your initial marks are correct. Moving the distributor around is only going to confuse things and likely won't achieve the desired effect.
Best,


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

thanks. i wasnt gonna touch the distributor cuz i didnt wnat to make things worse


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

Looks like we are sure now that there's no need to move the distributor.
By the way, be sure to take all the green stuff out of the system, flush it with plenty of water before adding the blue stuff. Think they're not compatible.
So let us know when you start it.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

yea i plan on putting water in it till i see no more green, yea they are not compatible.
yea will let you know when i start up


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

can i run the engine with no pvc vavle and hose till i get a new one


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

Sure, if you plug the holes in the intake boot and on the engine block breather.
Lots of oil fumes though. Big no no for the other hoses and wires/conectors.
If you ask me, I would wait.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

ok i finally got a pcv valve and hose, almost done putting it all back together. so later tonite im gonna start it, i hope no cel cuz i dont have a way to check them


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i finally started it, kinda started sluggish but once i gave it alil gas it evened out. no cel yeppie







so thats a good sign, is there a faster way to add coolant in?


----------



## the mad conductor (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

I did the screwdriver trick and it worked.


----------



## 83_WabbitGTI (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: (no_cash)*

Great thread here, Sorry to jack.... I see the timing mark for the flywheel on here, but what about the automatic transmission guys? I don't see that mark anywhere.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i now have a cel and my coolant light is flashing and i barely added any coolant yet, my gauge is sitting around 200 and the fans havent kicked in yet?????????????????????


----------



## FL 2.0L (Aug 1, 2002)

Make sure the hose to the engine from the reservoir is clear.
I add coolant, take it around the block to get the tstat to open and coolant to get sucked in, let it cool, and add more coolant. If that hose is blocked, though, no coolant is going to make it from the res to the engine. The fans aren't coming on because there is air in the system.


----------



## FL 2.0L (Aug 1, 2002)

You did a good flush, too, right?


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

no i havent did a doo flush dont know too


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

its going in tomorrow morning to get the coolant flushed out good and put the correct coolant back in. just hope i didnt over heat it or anything


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

Good luck. Keep us posted.


----------



## dzeagenius (Jul 24, 2009)

*Re: (Cee-dub)*

Just wanted to say thanks for the pics. They really helped me out. I just replaced my water pump and timing belt for the first time. After the initial job my car wouldn't start because my timing was off. After reading this thread I went back and repositioned my pulleys and like magic she started right up. Thanks again. I'm not sure what I would do without vortex. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

yea my jetta wnet in this morning to get flushed and i was told it over heated alil while over there and that my fans didnt work. the guy asked me if i put my t-stat in backwards. so he jumped the wires for the fans they work but i dont have any flow, so he thinks i have a clogged raditor or bad water pump or t-stat. will know more tomorrow when he does more tests


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Is there a way to time the motor with no transmission on it that is reliable since the harmonic balancer isn't that truthful for setting it? my motor is out of the car and I'd like to do the timing now instead of waiting to put it back in the car then have to do it.


----------



## FL 2.0L (Aug 1, 2002)

There is only one way the harmonic balancer wouldn't be reliable: if the tab on the back of the crank gear were sheared and the gear rotated on the crankshaft.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

i got my car back today from the shop, and my new t-stat that i got with my timing belt kit wasnt opening all the way so thats why my fans didnt work and why it over heated too. so they put in a new t-stat and now everything works fine.







thanks for everyones help thank you


----------



## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

*Re: (67vwdub)*

Sure no problem.
Enjoy your ride and keep posting.


----------



## 67vwdub (Jul 17, 2009)

yea im enjoying it and i will keep posting cuz i know i will need help again


----------

