# Car drifts back on hills



## whobboo (Oct 24, 2007)

Is anyone having problems with the car rolling back on a hill? I have a 2008 EOS 2.0T automatic and it seems when I'm on a hill stopped at a light, the light then turns green and when I take my foot off the brake to put it on the gas, the car rolls back quite a bit.
The dealer states this is a characteristic of the transmission but I have my doubts.


----------



## DANBURY VW-PASSAT (Jun 17, 2003)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

You will roll back a little on the hills with the DSG. Remember this not the normal Auto in your car. I hope this helps you.... any questions just ask me....


----------



## whobboo (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (DANBURY VW-PASSAT)*

Thanks for the info. and excuse my ignorance but what is DGS?


----------



## brandonk (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

DSG is the crazy cool auto transmission. Maybe use the hand brake as a hill "roll aid" until you get comfy will the required precision hill launch?


----------



## darrellc2002 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

It caught me off guard at first too, but you will get the hang of it.


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

DSG stands for Direct Shift Gearbox. The transmission is actually a manual transmission with two automatic clutches.
There are also two input shafts on the transmission, one clutch for each shaft. When you are in first gear, second gear is already selected on the second shaft, when the transmission shifts, it simply disengages one clutch, and engages the other. This continues through all six gears.
Here is a link with more info, or google up VW DSG for lots of info.
http://cars.about.com/od/thing...s.htm
The DSG is arguebly the most advanced automotive transmission available today.
Kevin


----------



## wndctyboy (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

I notice the same thing, also when I put the car in Parking it rolls back more than normal, compare with the Tiptronic on Passat.


----------



## Shaka (May 20, 2001)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (wndctyboy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wndctyboy* »_I notice the same thing, also when I put the car in Parking it rolls back more than normal, compare with the Tiptronic on Passat.

I think that this is due in part to the fact that there is no torque converter like a normal automatic. Which makes me wonder, what is PARK really on a DSG car? Is it just 1st or Reverse gear engaged with no throttle? Because if so, that is like leaving the car parked in gear...
I wonder if it wouldn't be healthier for the transmission to actually use the e-brake more often. When I drive cars w/a clutch pedal, I never park them in gear I use the e-brake. But with the DSG, I treat it like an auto and I too experience the roll-back in "park" after shutting off the car and taking my foot off the brake. Oh well... what does the manual say about that I wonder?


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (wndctyboy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wndctyboy* »_I notice the same thing, also when I put the car in Parking it rolls back more than normal, compare with the Tiptronic on Passat.

Not sure if you know this or not Chris, but for those who may not.
Tiptronic has nothing to do with the actual transmission itself, Tiptronic is the electronic shifting system used to shift the transmission. 
Transmissions other than the DSG can be equiped with Tiptronic shifting. (not sure if your passat is equiped with DSG??)
The "roll back" is unique to the DSG transmission.
Kevin


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (Shaka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shaka* »_
I wonder if it wouldn't be healthier for the transmission to actually use the e-brake more often. 

I have developed the habit of always setting the e-brake on the Eos because of the roll back in park. I don't normally set the e-brake on other automatics (although I know it is recomended to do so)
Not sure if the roll back would hurt the transmission, but I would rather err on the side of caution.
The owners manual says the same thing every owners manual says:
- Stop the vehicle using the brake pedal. 
- Fully apply the parking brake
- Shift the transmission into 1st gear (manual) or Park (DSG automatic)
- Stop the engine and remove the key from the ignition switch. turn the steering wheel slightly to engage the steering lock.
- Always take your keys with you when you leave the vehicle. 
Sage advice from VW








Kevin











_Modified by just4fun at 8:09 PM 10-24-2007_


----------



## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (just4fun)*

BTW in the rest of the world the 'E' Brake is referred to as the Parking Brake or Hand Brake..


----------



## wndctyboy (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
Not sure if you know this or not Chris, but for those who may not.
Tiptronic has nothing to do with the actual transmission itself, Tiptronic is the electronic shifting system used to shift the transmission. 
Transmissions other than the DSG can be equiped with Tiptronic shifting. (not sure if your passat is equiped with DSG??)
The "roll back" is unique to the DSG transmission.
Kevin









Thanks for the replay Kevin. I know tiptronic has nothing to do with that, I should better say it compare with the regular transm.box the DSG has more roll back. 
Last transm. box I've seen it open was Chevy Caprice police car, when the gear shift was in Park position, a little bolt was blocking one of the gears directly connected to the shaft blocking the wheels.(excuse my bad tech.lingo) I'm thinking the DSG might be different, also in Europe they use hand brake more due to the fact that most cars are manual. Maybe VW thought this is a minor issue and will not be noticed by most people.


----------



## Shaka (May 20, 2001)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_BTW in the rest of the world the 'E' Brake is referred to as the Parking Brake or Hand Brake..

Those crazy non-americans.







Hehe....
Yeah it is odd, if the car was a manual transmission with a 3rd pedal, I'd use the parking brake religously. But somehow in automatic vehicles, the only time I ever use the parking brake is when parking on a hill (like visiting SF,CA for example).
It would be nice to know what, if any, harm the rolling forward/back of the car does when using the park feature without the hand brake with a DSG car.


----------



## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (Shaka)*

Believe it or not when I took my CA driving test I was almost failed for setting the Hand ('E' or 'P') brake at a 4-way stop. In the UK if you do not set the Hand brake at a stop it is (or was 25 years ago) an instant fail. The argument being that if you have your foot on the foot brake and get rear ended your foot may slip of the brake, allowing you to roll into the oncoming traffic. If the Hand Brake is set this cannot be released by a rear-end tap.


----------



## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (mark_d_drake)*

Any AT car will roll back on a hill if the resistance of the torque converter is overcome. Try it. Most cars don't move as much in P as the DSG does.


----------



## monocle (Jun 27, 2007)

I found myself sitting a a light on a hill just this evening and I remembered this topic. I did a bit of testing. If I released my foot from the brake slowly, the car would only roll back a little and then the transmission would engage and it would actually start going back up without me ever touching the gas. I did it 4 times and found nothing to be concerned about. I didn't try it where I just release the brake swiftly... I'm not sure what it would do then. I didn't want to risk rolling into the car behind me. And for reference the hill in question is a rather aggressive dip to go under a train track... but I don't know the grade.


----------



## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
The owners manual says the same thing every owners manual says:
- Shift the transmission into 1st gear (manual) or Park (DSG automatic)


This is a bit off topic, but does it really matter what gear you put it in? I always put it in 2nd gear, having the gear shift pointing "downward" (2nd/4th/6th) just feels better than up (1st/3rd/5th). Does it matter?


----------



## wndctyboy (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

I found this site about DSG, download the PDF file, on page 19(23) are some brief explanations on how parking works on DSG, the entire brochure is very interesting, may answer some of your questions about DSG box. http://208.179.211.245/sspen/dsg.pdf










_Modified by wndctyboy at 10:48 PM 10-25-2007_


----------



## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (wndctyboy)*

Interesting article but I don't think this PDF is about the DSG, rather, just a regular 6 speed automatic as there is discussion about torque converters. It is interesting how Park locks works. I always heard about a "lock pin" and that you weren't suppose to let the car rock while in park for fear of breaking that pin. The Park lever looks a bit more robust then a pin. 
The only way a torque converter would keep a car from rolling would be if the lock-up part of it were engaged. Torque converter deliver power from the engine to the transition through fluid. If there's no engine output there no resistance in the torque converter so nothing to stop the car from moving as there is no direct connection from the engine to transmission. There was always this "slippage" which reduces fuel economy. The lock-up torque converter eliminated this slippage by locking the torque converter input to output after the final transmission gear is reached.


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (solarflare)*

I agree, it is an interesting article, but that is not a DSG transmission. The cut away views show only 1 shaft, and it says that particular transmission is manufactured in Japan. The DSG is manufactured in VW's plant in Kassel, Germany.
Here is a link to an article about a DSG trans built from Meccano, there is also a good general overview of the operation of the real DSG. (this has been posted here previously)
http://www.selmec.org.uk/artic....aspx
It doesn't give any insight into how the park "pin" works in a DSG though.
Kevin









*MODIFIED* - 2007/10/26 - Actually I read this article through a bit more thoroughly and if you look at Figure 3, it identifies "Differential with Integral Parking Lock Gear Ring". There is no additional information, but if the description is accurate, it would appear the DSG uses a locking ring gear to hold the Park position.
Now I know what it is called, I'll see if I can find any info on it in the Bentley Manual.



_Modified by just4fun at 9:20 AM 10-26-2007_


----------



## whobboo (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (monocle)*

Thanks for the test. I'll be sure to try taking my foot off the brake slowly and see what happens. I guess I should make sure that no cars are behind me just in case


----------



## cityjohn (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: (whobboo)*

Come on, everyone likes a little rollback!


----------



## itsmejerry (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

The DSG on the Passats sold in the US has an Autohold feature where, when engaged prevents the car from moving with one's foot off the brake unti the gas pedal is pushed. On Passats this prevents rear rolling on hills when starting off. I've wondered why all DSG equipped cars dont have this feature. 
The satisfaction rate of DSG cars would be better if all had the Autohold feature.


----------



## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (itsmejerry)*

Just a quick guess but if you are talking about the current model Passat it has an Electronic Parking Brake so that may be part of its function rather than the DSG.


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (sydeos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sydeos* »_Just a quick guess but if you are talking about the current model Passat it has an Electronic Parking Brake so that may be part of its function rather than the DSG.

Is the Passat available with DSG in the US??
I was looking at the Passat a couple days ago. Here in Canada they are available with a 6 speed automatic with tiptronic, but it is not specified as being a DSG.
Just wondering.
Kevin


----------



## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (just4fun)*

Here in Australia both versions of the 2.0TDI (103 and 125KW) and the 3.2FSI come with the DSG transmission. However I note the US site says 6SP Auto Tiptronic so I guess it is the conventional Automatic Transmission and not the DSG then. So disregard my comment about the the Electronic Parking Brake as it is not applicable then


----------



## OregonEOS (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*

I know these transmission differences have been explained before but here is my take on the issue:
DSG is one type of automatic transmission. It is an automatic because it shifts gears automatically.
DSG is one type of Tiptronic transmission because it has the ability to let the driver select each gear. It is not the only automatic transmission with Tiptronic.
DSG uses clutches to engage the engine to the drive wheels. Manual transmissions do this as well, only with manual gear selection and a foot operated clutch pedal.
Typical, non DSG, automatics use a torque converter to engage the engine to the drive wheels. Torque converters have a nifty quality of allowing power (twisting torque) to be applied in a smooth gradual fashion. The torque (twisting power) is temporary "converted" to intermediate values that give a feeling of having many gears continuously engaging as the car smoothly starts off. 
The converter also allows just enough power (twisting torque to the wheels) to hold a vehicle in place on a moderate slope and yet not cause the motor to stall. The drive wheels have some twisting power to go forward yet are not really turning. The engine still keeps turning even though the gear is engaged and the vehicle is a rest. It works well, though at a performance cost. The torque converter looses power in the process. It turns the power of some engine revolutions into frictional heat that is dissipated in transmission fluids.
The DSG transmission does not have this type of loss. It uses clutches to transfer power and, as in a typical manual transmission clutch, the power is transfered in a rather abrupt fashion. When starting on a hill the DSG clutches are not engaged so no twisting power is applied to the drive wheels and the car then rolls backward. Fairly quickly and abruptly the clutch engages and you are off.
The Audi vehicles sold in the USA that have the DSG automatics do not have the problem of rolling backwards when stopped on a hill. Apparently they have a Hill-hold feature that temporary applies the rear brakes to hold the car until the DSG clutch has engaged.
In EOS and Mark V vehicles with DSG, drivers must provide their own brakes to the rear wheels by gently pulling up on the hand brake. Also hold the hand brake button in so the break is easily released. Practice!
Note: When applying the hand brake do not be too worried about giving it some gas with the hand brake still being gently applied. That is just fine as it will not damage the transmission, clutch, or bakes. It is much better than rolling back, or forward, into someone.


----------



## monocle (Jun 27, 2007)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (OregonEOS)*

thanks for the thorough explanation.
I have to assume that most of the people with "issues" with the roll back have not driven a manual shift car on a regular basis (if ever even). I don't mean this a criticism since I totally understand if one prefers an automatic. I only make that comment because as a person who has driven a manual shift car everyday for the past 10 years (before getting the Eos), I don't even notice the roll back on the Eos unless I am looking for. I am used to the swift motion needed to move from brake to gas. I'm just curious what others' take on the "roll back situation" if you have significant time behind the wheel of a manual shift vehicle.


----------



## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Car drifts back on hills (monocle)*

Like you, it's not an issue for me. In fact, I like it as it makes the car feel more like a manual.


----------



## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

I never noticed until it was brought up here. I have had some manual transmission cars, but more recently they have been automatics (manual - PITA for the traffic here). I have never had to resort to the handbrake method, and I don't make a concious effort to switch _quickly_ from brake to gas either. So to me, it is something which is part of my driving style and could probably be learned pretty easily, it's just a matter of getting used to it.
The thread did bring up a question though. I notice when parking on even a slight incline, desengaging park is much harder. It's almost as if you can feel the metal to metal friction when shifting into D. So is this bad? I know it is probably a good idea to use the handbrake in this case, but will it do damage if I do not use this method?



_Modified by jgermuga at 1:58 PM 11-5-2007_


----------



## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: (jgermuga)*

Why take the chance. If you go back up the thread Kevin posted from the Owner's manual VW's recommened method of parking the car with respect to using the emergency(handbrake) before putting the shifter into Park. On a steep grade not using this method could cause extreme force to get the lever out of park, that something could get damaged. Also could cause a safety issue if the car somehow would come out of Park.


_Modified by cb391 at 1:37 PM 11-5-2007_


----------



## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (cb391)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cb391* »_Why take the chance. If you go back up the thread Kevin posted from the Owner's manual VW's recommened method of parking the car with respect to using the emergency(handbrake) before putting the shifter into Park. On a steep grade not using this method could cause extreme force to get the lever out of park, that something could get damaged. Also could cause a safety issue if the car somehow would come out of Park.

_Modified by cb391 at 1:37 PM 11-5-2007_

There is also information that warns against putting too much stress on the "park lock" mechanism because you can stretch the cable on the shift linkage when trying to disengage.
the articles I read were specific to VW, but not necessarily specific to the DSG. However I seem to recall reading something about a cable on the shift linkage in the Bentley manual, so I'm pretty certain this would apply to the DSG on the Eos as well.
Kevin


----------



## grantLdaw (Feb 14, 2021)

brandonk said:


> *Re: Car drifts back on hills (whobboo)*
> 
> DSG is the crazy cool auto transmission. Maybe use the hand brake as a hill "roll aid" until you get comfy will the required precision hill launch?


the hand brake doesn't help as there is a delay between you letting the brake off and the accelerator picking up


----------



## MLB123 (Jan 19, 2021)

whobboo said:


> Is anyone having problems with the car rolling back on a hill? I have a 2008 EOS 2.0T automatic and it seems when I'm on a hill stopped at a light, the light then turns green and when I take my foot off the brake to put it on the gas, the car rolls back quite a bit.
> The dealer states this is a characteristic of the transmission but I have my doubts.


I've had my Eos for about 2 months now and have also wondered about the pause between letting off the brakes and when the transmission engages. I'm not a fan of it and still haven't gotten used to it. I had a car behind me at a red light that was on a moderate incline blow the horn when the light changed as I was waiting for the trans to engage. In all actuality it's only like 5 seconds or so but seems like minutes when you have people behind you. I'm relieved however to know that this is normal behavior for these cars. ☺


----------

