# Cost-cutting measures put VW Beetle in jeopardy



## Chrisho (Dec 1, 2012)

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/03/10/vw-beetle-jeopardy-cost-cutting-report/


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

Tell me it isn't so!


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## JustFord0099 (Apr 5, 2009)

Lets hope not!!!!!  This is to much of an amazing car to ditch. Please VW dont do it!!


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

Oh no! Let's hope not!! The beetle is such a great car


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## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

The Vortex Editorial below was true then and more true now. IMO VW hasn't done enough to make the Beetle anything more than a round Golf. (My wife had the New Beetle and now has the current one so I speak from experience.)

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_392.shtml

They had (have?) a real shot at making it a competitor to the Mini Cooper, Fiat 500, and other micro cars. Otherwise it just isn't anything special beyond its looks.

PS: There is _definite_ cost-cutting in the current Beetle vs. the New Beetle. Sorry to see VW spiral downhill while the Japanese just keep getting better with fit'n'finish.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

I have loads of thoughts on this topic, and at some point if I have the time, I'll type up and post what I feel would be viable short-term and long-term solution to keep a Beetle-like vehicle in showrooms. If there's credibility in this article, there are three major issues here: internal VW product planning, marketing, and the overall decline of the 2 door car. 

*Decline of 2 doors*
I don't know if everyone's noticed this, but there's been a huge decline in the sales of 2 door cars. IIRC, the 4 door Jeep Wrangler outsells the 2 door by close to 10 to 1. MINI is expecting the 4 door Cooper that they just introduced to outsell the 2 door. VW brought out a 2 door GTI a few months ago, but sales of the 4 door appear to outpace it. Sales of convertibles have declined as well. Many maunfacturers have ditched their 2 door models altogether. Hyundai rolled out a 2 door Elantra and cancelled it after only a couple of years. KIA offered the 2 door Koup as well, but I believe it's been cancelled too. Ford didn't even offer a 2 door Focus hatchback on this current model, same for the Fiesta (at least here in the states). How many 2 door Civics do you see? Back in the 90s and through the early 2000s the 2 door Civic hatch and coupe were EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately, people no longer see 2 door cars as sportier than 4 doors. Buyers are no longer willing to give up the convenience of 4 doors for the aesthetics of a coupe. 

*Product plans/planning*
As i think g_man_ae is getting at, VW hasn't realized the full potential of the Beetle brand. To me, it feels like the models they offer are too dialed back. They are trying to make what is the definition of a lifestyle car into a more mainstream automobile. I think this needs to stop. They need a full-on retro model and full-on sport model. The limited edition Beetle 'Classic' model needs to become the standard retro model. Offer it in more colors (orange, bright blue, brgith green, etc), manual transmission, all three engines, and additional dark grey and black houndstooth interior color, and add the decal options to the standard vw.com build site (instead of the seperate vwsecondskin.com site that no one knows about). Ditch the R-Line name and call all sporty Beetles Super Beetles. They do this in Canada and I think they absolutely squandered this opportunity in the United States. There's a lot of recognition still to this day in the name 'Super Beetle.' Make it available with both the 2.0T and the TDI engine, bring the handling up to par with the GTI, give it more aggressively styled wheels, make xenon lights standard, and beef up the bumper styling a bit more. 

*Marketing*
VW's marketing in the US continues to be an issue. While I'm personally seeing more VW commercials than ever before, they will continue to lag behind competitors unless they up their marketing budget. I'll keep this brief as I'm doubting most readers have gotten this far, but the Beetle has been out for going on 4 years, and people still don't know about it. Seriously: I talk to people all the time that think the car just came out last year. Or they think this Beetle is still the "New Beetle" that came out in 1998. If VW wants to sell more Beetles, they really need to push the ads and product placement in TV/movies to build awareness.

*Beetle long-term*
Let's cut right to the chase: they need to offer a 4 door Beetle. Now I know purists will scoff at this idea, but if they want sales, they need 4 doors. Period. Wrangler purists scoffed at a 4 door model, but if Jeep didn't add the extra doors I wonder if there'd still be a pure Jeep Jeep in dealerships today. And I think comparing the Beetle to the Wrangler is rather fitting: they're both iconic models for their brand. Moving the Beetle to MQB allows VW to make more daring moves with the model as manufacturing costs go down and the ability for smaller-run models that are profitable increases. In addition to a 4 door Beetle, could there be an all wheel drive model? Why not a 'Thing' with dune buggy-like fenders and bumpers? There's many more possibilities with an MQB based Beetle than there is right now on the shared Jetta platform.

EDIT: Found a number of 4 door Beetle photoshops out on the net. Obviously this concept is on a number of people's minds.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

A few years ago, I knew we would be here. VW squandered this opportunity by limiting features, colors, and options on the Beetle. This was further aggrevated by optimistic base pricing and poor initial quality. VW is too timid in it's North American strategy and it shows in the results. No risk is too small to avoid. There's no such thing as moving too slow.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

I just feel there was not enough marketing done for the beetle I can probably count 3 commercials throughout the time it's been out. Super bowl and the high five commercial and the beetle preview with the beetle scurrying around.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

I admit the high five commercial made me go check it out originally

posted from tapatalk


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

drtechy said:


> I admit the high five commercial made me go check it out originally
> 
> posted from tapatalk


Gotten any high fives yet?? I know I haven't yet lol


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Vwguy026 said:


> Gotten any high fives yet?? I know I haven't yet lol


Me neither, kinda disappointing 

posted from tapatalk


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

This one, with the actual Beetle added to the end, is still my favorite. I swear they could add the updated R-Line to the end and use this one again. 







In terms of commercials, they actually had three Super Bowl ads with the Beetle: the 'black betty' one that was a teaser for the new car, the dog exercising ad, and then they had a 'get happy' one. This last one actually got them in a little hot water as some people felt the ad was a little racist; white people singing with Jamaican accents. 

These are good too:


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> ...Moving the Beetle to MQB allows VW to make more daring moves with the model as manufacturing costs go down and the ability for smaller-run models that are profitable increases...
> 
> ...There's many more possibilities with an MQB based Beetle than there is right now on the shared Jetta platform...


VW hasn't done a very good job marketing cars in the US but they have done an excellent job of marketing MQB here. Everyone seems to accept the assertion that MQB lives up to the hype. MQB will allow for lower cost variants using modular toolkits. Sounds great but the very fact VW has been looking to reduce variations implies all isn't well in MQB. 

Autoline Daily #1575 seems to believe that MQB is "a very expensive way to cut costs" and the savings that were supposed to show up in 2014 didn't. That's why VW is looking for other ways to slash costs such as reducing model combinations and cutting slow selling models. I can smell more dropped manual transmissions coming this way.

MQB does not necessarily have to accomplish what VW claims it will. There's the idea of a thing and then there's the reality of it.

Maybe next year.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

VW confirmed today that the Beetle will move to MQB in the next 3 years or so!

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/01/new-volkswagen-beetle-coming/

It will live!


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> VW confirmed today that the Beetle will move to MQB in the next 3 years or so!
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/01/new-volkswagen-beetle-coming/
> 
> It will live!


I have no reason to doubt except for VW's habit of building expectations just enough to create hope just to dash them when the time to put up or shut up comes along. I'll believe it when they start rolling down the assembly line. Anything else is VW pipe dreams, fiction, and flights of fancy. VW is not to be relied on to do anything but talk and move slow.


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## Chrisho (Dec 1, 2012)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> VW confirmed today that the Beetle will move to MQB in the next 3 years or so!
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/01/new-volkswagen-beetle-coming/
> 
> It will live!


Wax On, Wax Off

Really VW seems like its confused.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

VR6Now said:


> I have no reason to doubt except for VW's habit of building expectations just enough to create hope just to dash them when the time to put up or shut up comes along. I'll believe it when they start rolling down the assembly line. Anything else is VW pipe dreams, fiction, and flights of fancy. VW is not to be relied on to do anything but talk and move slow.


I love when VW people talk crap on VW on a VW forum


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Chrisho said:


> Wax On, Wax Off
> 
> Really VW seems like its confused.


VW isn't sonfused, it's the auto press that's confused. One of the major auto site/magazines started the rumor that the model was in jeapordy. VW clarified at their press conference at the New York Auto Show that the model will continue on. 

In fact, in a thread in the Car Lounge, I threw together sales figures from the past three years: the Beetle runs neck and neck with the Golf in sales. In 2013, the Beetle outsold the Golf in the U.S. by a wide margin. In fact, the Beetle was their third best-selling model here. In 2015 The Golf/GTI outsold the Beetle by only 10% (roughly 3000 cars). So the Beetle is just a viable product in their portfolio as the Golf.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

Interesting, as I saw figures that were depressing for the Beetle - 100,000+ worldwide compared to 800,000+ Golf's and 900,000+ Jetta's. 

Maybe they were wrong?


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

drtechy said:


> I love when VW people talk crap on VW on a VW forum


And Volkswagen has been the catalyst for more than a few VW people talking crap about VW on a VW forum. It wasn't I who sent a TDI 4motion sportwagen to a US autoshow just to listen to Michael Horn later say urea + 4motion wasn't going to happen. Seems like it would've made more sense to vet that selection before showing it here. That is a backroom decision that should've been made in the backroom before displaying the car in the first place. That gives real confidence in their marketing and communications. Of course I know this isn't an engineering problem but a cost and/or a ROI problem. If it was an engineering problem, it would even be dumber to show a car that was impossible to sell here. 

Don't get me wrong. Volkswagen makes enjoyable cars to drive but they have been damaged by constant change at VWoA (new leaders every 2 years), timidity, indecision, and perceived durability issues. If I were a value or appliance buyer, I wouldn't shop VW. Unfortunately a large percentage of US consumers are so value and reliability oriented that you will never capture their automotive dollar. VW does certain niches well and they are are not playing to that strength in the US by selling carymcords without camrycord reputations. Subaru understands their role here and capitalizes on it. VW doesn't have a clue what it wants to be here.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

GZB said:


> Interesting, as I saw figures that were depressing for the Beetle - 100,000+ *worldwide* compared to 800,000+ Golf's and 900,000+ Jetta's.
> 
> Maybe they were wrong?


I'm not sure what they are worldwide, but here in the U.S. the Golf (and GTI) and the Beetle have had similar sales over the past few years. I'm sure there will be substantially less Beetle sales this year (2015) as the Golf/GTI/Golf Sportwagen are all new and multiple 'Car of the Year' award winners. On top of that, VW is actively marketing the Golf on TV while there's nothing for the Beetle. TV ads almost always guarantee higher sales. 

To build on what you have above, if those numbers are even close to correct, 100,000 sales is nothing to sneeze at. They will never sell as many Beetles as they do Golfs or Jettas. The Beetle is not as practical, and is truly a 'niche' model. But sales are strong enough to justify the model and shows that it's still a valuable model in their product portfolio.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> VW isn't sonfused, it's the auto press that's confused. One of the major auto site/magazines started the rumor that the model was in jeapordy. VW clarified at their press conference at the New York Auto Show that the model will continue on.
> 
> In fact, in a thread in the Car Lounge, I threw together sales figures from the past three years: the Beetle runs neck and neck with the Golf in sales. In 2013, the Beetle outsold the Golf in the U.S. by a wide margin. In fact, the Beetle was their third best-selling model here. In 2015 The Golf/GTI outsold the Beetle by only 10% (roughly 3000 cars). So the Beetle is just a viable product in their portfolio as the Golf.


But to be fair, the Golf has one thing the Beetle doesn't...large international and EU sales. If the Beetle isn't selling big in north america and isn't selling big in other markets, I can see it being on the bubble. The Golf just needs to hold its own here because in the rest of the world, its kicking tail. If the Beetle were an Audi, it's sales volumes wouldn't be too bad.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Seems to me that if VW created that photo-shopped 4-door Beetle, they would definitely entice
buyers who need a 4-door car. Mini and Fiat are just two of the companies that got the jump on VW in
their segment and I think the Beetle looks much more substantial and attractive than both of them in
a 4-door car.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> ...To build on what you have above, if those numbers are even close to correct, 100,000 sales is nothing to sneeze at. They will never sell as many Beetles as they do Golfs or Jettas. The Beetle is not as practical, and is truly a 'niche' model. But sales are strong enough to justify the model and shows that it's still a valuable model in their product portfolio.


100,000 worldwide annual sales is not really very good unless the car has high profit margins. I don't the Beetle has high enough profit margins to make 100k that special. Since you can swing a decent discount on a Beetle, I suspect they really aren't making much on them in the US. Probably the same thing could be said for Europe.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

VR6Now said:


> And Volkswagen has been the catalyst for more than a few VW people talking crap about VW on a VW forum. It wasn't I who sent a TDI 4motion sportwagen to a US autoshow just to listen to Michael Horn later say urea + 4motion wasn't going to happen. Seems like it would've made more sense to vet that selection before showing it here. That is a backroom decision that should've been made in the backroom before displaying the car in the first place. That gives real confidence in their marketing and communications. Of course I know this isn't an engineering problem but a cost and/or a ROI problem. If it was an engineering problem, it would even be dumber to show a car that was impossible to sell here.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Volkswagen makes enjoyable cars to drive but they have been damaged by constant change at VWoA (new leaders every 2 years), timidity, indecision, and perceived durability issues. If I were a value or appliance buyer, I wouldn't shop VW. Unfortunately a large percentage of US consumers are so value and reliability oriented that you will never capture their automotive dollar. VW does certain niches well and they are are not playing to that strength in the US by selling carymcords without camrycord reputations. Subaru understands their role here and capitalizes on it. VW doesn't have a clue what it wants to be here.


I've got to agree with you on most points. VWoA really needs an American at the helm, but we all know that isn't going to happen. VW is just now realizing they are far too conservative with their U.S. models. At the release of the Cross Coupe GTE concept (the golden yellow CC replacement concept) they stated they are working on designs that are more in line with the 'bold' designs that Americans want. I equate VW with Honda in a few ways: Honda is VERY cautious and careful when they redesign the Accord. The Accord is their most popular model and they sell tons of them, so they don't want to upset their core buyers. VW is the same way with the Golf in Europe: very cautious, very careful. But the Golf is not the most popular model here, so they can take much larger risks with it. But they don't. 

Where I differ from what you have above is that VW _does_ have a clue about what IT wants to be here: the same VW buyers as Germany. What it wants is American buyers to act like German buyers. I think they are finally realizing that they can't keep pushing the cars that Germans love on U.S. buyers and expect them to suddenly start scooping up Golfs like they do Accords/Camrys/Fusions. I just have to think that they're all sitting over there thinking "When will these stupid Americans wise up and buy our sensible Golfs? When will they be over this infatuation with sedans? And SUVs? We'll keep pushing them Golfs and eventually they'll get it."


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

ridgemanron said:


> Seems to me that if VW created that photo-shopped 4-door Beetle, they would definitely entice
> buyers who need a 4-door car. Mini and Fiat are just two of the companies that got the jump on VW in
> their segment and I think the Beetle looks much more substantial and attractive than both of them in
> a 4-door car.


when looking at this








Does anyone else see Porsche Panamera?


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

flynavyj said:


> when looking at this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Definitely...










(But it's still not an $80,000 Beetle!)


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## oidoglr (Jan 26, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I've got to agree with you on most points. VWoA really needs an American at the helm, but we all know that isn't going to happen. VW is just now realizing they are far too conservative with their U.S. models. At the release of the Cross Coupe GTE concept (the golden yellow CC replacement concept) they stated they are working on designs that are more in line with the 'bold' designs that Americans want. I equate VW with Honda in a few ways: Honda is VERY cautious and careful when they redesign the Accord. The Accord is their most popular model and they sell tons of them, so they don't want to upset their core buyers. VW is the same way with the Golf in Europe: very cautious, very careful. But the Golf is not the most popular model here, so they can take much larger risks with it. But they don't.
> 
> Where I differ from what you have above is that VW _does_ have a clue about what IT wants to be here: the same VW buyers as Germany. What it wants is American buyers to act like German buyers. I think they are finally realizing that they can't keep pushing the cars that Germans love on U.S. buyers and expect them to suddenly start scooping up Golfs like they do Accords/Camrys/Fusions. I just have to think that they're all sitting over there thinking "When will these stupid Americans wise up and buy our sensible Golfs? When will they be over this infatuation with sedans? And SUVs? We'll keep pushing them Golfs and eventually they'll get it."


Absolutely. A few enthusiasts on a forum who wish they could buy what's available in the EU/ROW doesn't create a market here. The problem with enthusiasts is that they don't think like the average consumer. Without fail, the first thing another person who meets me when they find out I like VWs remarks about how "they won't last" or someother comment about the unreliability. No amount of clever design will change public perception...only backing it up with _EXCELLENT_ customer service at the dealer networks and a solid warranty that communicates to the consumer 2 things: Our cars are built so well that we have confidence in them, and if something goes wrong, we've got your back. Only then, when VWoA can sell volumes of consumer-mobiles can it make a business case to offer exciting enthusiast cars here.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

7-year/70k bumper to bumper warranty helps. If they didn't have any confidence in reliability, they wouldn't offer it, even as an optional upgrade. (Yes, I did get it. For $700 total over the life of the loan, seemed prudent at the time. If almost anything goes wrong, including busting a rim on one our "wonderful" michigan roads, it's covered and justifies the cost.)


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

oidoglr said:


> Absolutely. A few enthusiasts on a forum who wish they could buy what's available in the EU/ROW doesn't create a market here. The problem with enthusiasts is that they don't think like the average consumer. Without fail, the first thing another person who meets me when they find out I like VWs remarks about how "they won't last" or someother comment about the unreliability. No amount of clever design will change public perception...only backing it up with _EXCELLENT_ customer service at the dealer networks and a solid warranty that communicates to the consumer 2 things: Our cars are built so well that we have confidence in them, and if something goes wrong, we've got your back. Only then, when VWoA can sell volumes of consumer-mobiles can it make a business case to offer exciting enthusiast cars here.


The point is 'enthusiasts' do get it. VW doesn't have a prayer as a competitor to Honda, Kia, Hyundai, Mazda, Ford, or Toyota. They don't have the reliability, responsiveness, local engineering focus, local manufacturing capability, marketing, cost structure, or understanding of wider customer wants/needs to do any better than what they are doing now. They simply don't have the capability to compete with them in the US market nor do they seem to be on a trajectory to ever be capable to do so. Niche manufacturers that do well (Subaru) understand the niches that they cater to and zero in on them with a laser focus. Volkswagen has the R, TDI, and GTI. Everything else they make can be found in abundance in the broader market with better reliability, cost, or feature set.

I worked automotive and have designed and developed components for foreign and domestic automakers. I don't live in a consumer bubble. I can see the entire equation and VW is in a difficult spot in the USA.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

GZB said:


> Tell me it isn't so!


It ain't so. If it were, why would they show not 1, but 4 concepts at the NY Auto Show: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...pts-shown-at-New-York-International-Auto-Show


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I have loads of thoughts on this topic, and at some point if I have the time, I'll type up and post what I feel would be viable short-term and long-term solution to keep a Beetle-like vehicle in showrooms. If there's credibility in this article, there are three major issues here: internal VW product planning, marketing, and the overall decline of the 2 door car.
> 
> *Decline of 2 doors*
> I don't know if everyone's noticed this, but there's been a huge decline in the sales of 2 door cars. IIRC, the 4 door Jeep Wrangler outsells the 2 door by close to 10 to 1. MINI is expecting the 4 door Cooper that they just introduced to outsell the 2 door. VW brought out a 2 door GTI a few months ago, but sales of the 4 door appear to outpace it. Sales of convertibles have declined as well. Many maunfacturers have ditched their 2 door models altogether. Hyundai rolled out a 2 door Elantra and cancelled it after only a couple of years. KIA offered the 2 door Koup as well, but I believe it's been cancelled too. Ford didn't even offer a 2 door Focus hatchback on this current model, same for the Fiesta (at least here in the states). How many 2 door Civics do you see? Back in the 90s and through the early 2000s the 2 door Civic hatch and coupe were EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately, people no longer see 2 door cars as sportier than 4 doors. Buyers are no longer willing to give up the convenience of 4 doors for the aesthetics of a coupe.
> ...


That is Flugly! :thumbdown::thumbdown::facepalm:


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

While we're modifying the Beetle, I always imagined a shortened version. One that might compete with the Smart Cars, etc. 

I call it the Bee, because it's half of a Bee-tle... 

I realize this is a rough hack-job, but all I could do in 15 minutes...


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

Um, no. And you said a 4-door version was "flugly"!


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## BUG-BITE (May 3, 2014)

the beet said:


> While we're modifying the Beetle, I always imagined a shortened version. One that might compete with the Smart Cars, etc.
> 
> I call it the Bee, because it's half of a Bee-tle...
> 
> I realize this is a rough hack-job, but all I could do in 15 minutes...


To Funny....now that is a clown car! Good job on the quick edit.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

GZB said:


> Um, no. And you said a 4-door version was "flugly"!


That is my point exactly. 

You don't see them making a 4-door Mustang or Corvette. The Beetle is a classic icon and should not be mutilated into a mini-van.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

the beet said:


> That is my point exactly.
> 
> You don't see them making a 4-door Mustang or Corvette. The Beetle is a classic icon and should not be mutilated into a mini-van.


But the Mustang and the Corvette are a pony car and a full-on sports car, not what is (essentially) a 4 person hatchback. I agree with you that it is an icon, but icons have to adapt with the times. Ford didn't update the Mustang with more room and an independent rear suspension, and they lost sales to the more modern Camaro. 

I'd counter the two door argument with the Jeep Wrangler 4 door (which *greatly* outsells the 2 door) and the new MINI Cooper 4 door (no sales data yet, it just went on sale). Heck, VW sells far more 4 door GTIs than 2 doors. Sadly, the market for 2 door vehicles has just about dried up.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

^While I do agree with your statement I don't think the beetle needs a 4 door. What the beetle brand needs is a real performance model "Real R:.", AWD, more tech for the money, it needs more creature comforts "Power Seats" Remote Start Digital Climate Control those features would make the car more competitive in today's US market. Not more doors. The days of large hulking sedans is over. I think a 4 door beetle is a silly idea to even be considered. people want value for their money and right now unfortunately your basically paying more to drive an icon. That's fine for some but if the Beetle wants to be more successful make the top of the range worth the dollar amount with tech, performance styling and options like a mini, and offer lower cost options to be more affordable to get it into people's hands. That's the formula for success.

However... The biggest issue with all this is the Golf and Golf GTI. The GTI is the "Golden Child" holding back major investment into the Beetle Platform when it comes to performance and such. If they had An AWD Beetle R it would compete with their GTI and Golf R platforms which would be a no no. However if VW was brash enough to engage in building a performance version and or lowering the base cost giving people what they have been stating since the introduction of the new platform that would be awesome.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Vwguy026 said:


> However... The biggest issue with all this is the Golf and Golf GTI. The GTI is the "Golden Child" holding back major investment into the Beetle Platform when it comes to performance and such. If they had An AWD Beetle R it would compete with their GTI and Golf R platforms which would be a no no. However if VW was brash enough to engage in building a performance version and or lowering the base cost giving people what they have been stating since the introduction of the new platform that would be awesome.


We obviously won't agree on the 4 door thing, and there's nothing wrong with that. :wave:

I think they need to let go of the GTI *OR* Beetle internal 'argument' that they're having. Why not offer both with nearly identical performance? Beetle buyers are going to be Beetle buyers and GTI/Golf buyers aren't going to migrate to a Beetle. Read the comments in the Car Lounge here and you'll see that: GTI guys don't 'get' the Beetle as it's not as practical, and Beetle buyers aren't as interested in the Golf or GTI because it's not as emotional. VW dialed back the performance on the Beetle so the GTI would be their best handler/sportiest car. They didn't want the Beetle to outshine the MKVI GTI. Now that the MKVII is out, I think they could add the gearing and suspension bits from the MKVI GTI to the Beetle; it would bring up the performance an handling, but will still be a step behind the all-new GTI. 

The same could apply to the Beetle R vs. the Golf R: there may be room for both for the same reasons (Beetle buyers vs. Golf buyers) that I mentioned above. Heck, a Beetle R could be identical to the Scirocco R with the boosted 2.0T, upgraded suspension, and FWD. Journalists have driven the Scirocco R and loved it even without the AWD system. A FWD Beetle R would boost the image of the Beetle, could cost little to implement, and still wouldn't step on the toes of the AWD Golf R.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> We obviously won't agree on the 4 door thing, and there's nothing wrong with that. :wave:
> 
> I think they need to let go of the GTI *OR* Beetle internal 'argument' that they're having. Why not offer both with nearly identical performance? Beetle buyers are going to be Beetle buyers and GTI/Golf buyers aren't going to migrate to a Beetle. Read the comments in the Car Lounge here and you'll see that: GTI guys don't 'get' the Beetle as it's not as practical, and Beetle buyers aren't as interested in the Golf or GTI because it's not as emotional. VW dialed back the performance on the Beetle so the GTI would be their best handler/sportiest car. They didn't want the Beetle to outshine the MKVI GTI. Now that the MKVII is out, I think they could add the gearing and suspension bits from the MKVI GTI to the Beetle; it would bring up the performance an handling, but will still be a step behind the all-new GTI.
> 
> The same could apply to the Beetle R vs. the Golf R: there may be room for both for the same reasons (Beetle buyers vs. Golf buyers) that I mentioned above. Heck, a Beetle R could be identical to the Scirocco R with the boosted 2.0T, upgraded suspension, and FWD. Journalists have driven the Scirocco R and loved it even without the AWD system. A FWD Beetle R would boost the image of the Beetle, could cost little to implement, and still wouldn't step on the toes of the AWD Golf R.


I disagree with both of you. VW has plenty of vehicles with 4 doors and the other features without having to sacrifice the Beetle. The beetle is already keeping up with the times, with a front engine, front wheel drive and better fuel economy, etc. and eventually electric/hybrid. 

I guess we all just disagree.


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