# Major Issues



## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

*Major Issues P0016.. the death code*

So I am going to try and be short and sweet with this and give you all the info needed. I searched everything related to these problem prior to posting nothing seemed to shed any light... I have 2005.5 2.5 with 95K on the odometer up until yesterday she was bulletproof, not a single CEL, synthetic oil every 5K on the dot and I did my regular tune-up at 75K, zero mods on the car. 


It was driving great Friday no problems I have had zero timing change noise mind you for the life of the car. Turn the car on Saturday morning and it running like crap at low RPMs (anything sub 1500). Drove for a bit to try and find a problem shifts great pulled hard above 2K literally falls flat on its face under 2K sputters sometimes stalls out. Barely starting I have to stomp on the gas to get it to turn over. :sly: Battery light flashed a bunch and then turned off and the CEL came on it was P0016 (the death code) it seems like nothing but issues follow after this CEL. So I started with cam and crank sensors replaced those no difference car is still idling like **** shaking like crazy, sputtering and stalling. So I decided to check coils seemed viable. Found one coil that smelt burnt and was black where it meets the spark plug. Ran a voltage test they all tested uniformly at 395 but replaced it anyway thinking it was on its way out or causing misfire, car ran a tad better still idling terribly, falling flat on its face and sputtering and stalling out, engine shakes like crazy.


This is where it got bad, very bad. :facepalm: Decided to disconnect the battery to try and reset the computer maybe it would recognize the new sensors and changes. So I do so for 1 minute reconnect the battery turn the key and boom nothing car doesn't start at all period no noise of it turning over nothing almost like I have a dead battery. Check battery with a volt meter plenty of juice. Then My buddies and I looked at the old sensors metal shaving stuck to the old cam sensor we removed.....:banghead: I hope to god my timing chain isnt to far gone seeing as its never given me a single problem till today. 


My buddy checked my fuse box before we reconnected the battery and said it looked like i was missing fuses. Could you please take a look at my external fuse box under the hood and see if I am missing any fuses, he was also checking fuses to see if any where blown so maybe he put one back in the wrong spot and that's why it isn't starting.. couldn't find pics for reference to the fuse box and the cars manual is terrible. 


Here is the pic below of the fuse box... it just blows my mind how this literally happened overnight went from running perfectly to complete **** aka kinda running to not even starting in 12 hours which pushes me in the direction that its electrical maybe a bad ECU... Any help or experience with similar problems would be awesome, Thank you in advance vortex. I am losing my mind and sleep. In the meantime a friend will be coming over to vagcom it seeing as its on stands in driveway deader than a door nail.


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

if your car was running great up until now, if you haven't removed any of the fuses in the past the only problem you may run into is a bad fuse...not a missing one.

if the car has a P0016 code that generally results in a timing chain problem stop running it immediately, don't keep trying to crank it and test it for other problematic areas. just take the car in and pay the diagnosis fee to have them figure out what's wrong. then you can decide whether you'll do the repair yourself (if possible), or if you want to have a shop complete the work. totally sucks that this came about, but at this point you need to cut your losses and have a professional take a look under the hood so that you can move forward.


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

LampyB said:


> if your car was running great up until now, if you haven't removed any of the fuses in the past the only problem you may run into is a bad fuse...not a missing one.
> 
> if the car has a P0016 code that generally results in a timing chain problem stop running it immediately, don't keep trying to crank it and test it for other problematic areas. just take the car in and pay the diagnosis fee to have them figure out what's wrong. then you can decide whether you'll do the repair yourself (if possible), or if you want to have a shop complete the work. totally sucks that this came about, but at this point you need to cut your losses and have a professional take a look under the hood so that you can move forward.


Yeah thanks for the input my friend. After the vagcom gets run today unless its something as simple as a blown fuse or some other idiotic small problem I am 99% sure its getting towed down to the dealer seeing that its very close and the closest reliable German shop is NGP in Aberdeen which is like an hour tow... it just crazy to think it could be the timing chain even though it hasn't made any noise at all and I haven't had any of the associated problem codes till now. But my friend said they can be ghostly like that and it can go bad without any audible warning signs.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

This sounds alot like what happend to my 98 Beetle when the MAF sensor went bad. Thought it was electrical problem as well. Replaced the coil pack, wires, plugs, and put a brand new optima red top in it. Problem got slightly better but still would not hold a steady idle and would die quickly after start up. Thought it was possibly the alternator so I changed that out. Still same problems. Took my MAF out and checked it, ended up being super dirty on the element inside. Cleaned the sensor, reinstalled it and the car ran great. Sucks I ended up blowing through so much money on other parts just to find out it was only my MAF sensor. Considering your code doesnt pertain to the MAF, Id say it prolly isnt the problem but still something you should check. They are notorious for causing all kinds of problems on VWs, especially idle related ones.


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah my buddy thought the same thing as well so we did end up disconnecting it and running it with and without the sensor plugged in just to see if there was any sort of a difference there wasn't really any noticeable difference regrettably. So I am hopefully running the vag on it tomorrow so if its nothing major which I am crossing my fingers it is we will fix it if it is something major like the timing chain its getting towed to NGP. Thanks for the input :thumbup: I really appreciate it if anyone else out there has a similar story to share or anything related feel free to post it up. In the meantime I will try and keep the thread updated for fellow 2fivers to use as a resource.:beer:


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

I have a friend with a 2005 Jetta (85k miles) that has starting issues. Kind of similar to what you described in your second paragraph. Did some research and it seems like the circular rubber gasket inside the valve cover is a common problem with 2.5s (if that gasket gets ripped causing a vacuum leak) Its pretty thin so it looks like it can rip easily. We will try to replace the rubber gasket and see if it works. You might be having this issue compounded with something else. Will let you know how it goes. Here is where a Ross-tech Vag-Com cable pays off:beer:


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

Started up perfectly with no check engine light.

This was indeed the problem

http://newbeetle.org/forums/784185-post14.html


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## A1an (Mar 22, 2007)

^ very interesting. Link should be a sticky in the FAQ section (if it isn't already).


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

I agree as this is a serious issue. I also noticed that the rubber gasket I had was grey in color and the one my friend has was the orange one. Im not sure if there was a change in integrity since I have an 08 Rabbit compared his 05 Jetta. There has been a number of revisions for this motor but I decided I didnt want to take the chance and bought the BW valve cover

OP: Did you figure out what the issue may be? I think there could be a blown fuse in addition to a PCV leak.


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Cherb32 said:


> Started up perfectly with no check engine light.
> 
> This was indeed the problem
> 
> http://newbeetle.org/forums/784185-post14.html


Thats wild, congrats on the cheap fix! I will have to take a look at that when I get home from work. And yes I am really leaning towards it being a blown fuse along with a combination of something else, I am just not a firm believer it could be the chain seeing as there were no previous symptoms. But maybe that is just me not wanting to face the 1K-3K associated with most timing chain replacement 

I noticed a tad of bit oily build up on the backside of the engine block by the valave cover but not a significant amount maybe a little to much than normal wear would cause the other night when I was in there poking around. I will inspect both places more thoroughly this evening, and keep you posted, especially after the vag as well.


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

kitten_puncher said:


> ...I noticed a tad of oily build up on the backside of the engine block by the valve cover but not a significant amount but maybe a little to much than normal wear would cause the other night when I was in there poking around. I will inspect both places more thoroughly this evening, and keep you posted, especially after the vag as well.


Yeah you may need a new gasket. But if you plan on replacing the valve cover (since you cant just buy the rubber piece separate from the dealer), you might as well do the gasket at the same time. I think a gasket is around ~$25-30. Definitely keep us posted:thumbup::beer:

Oh yeah and make sure you torque those valve cover bolts to spec (10Nm). Over torque them and youll be adding another issue to the rats nest


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Update: Vag on wed. till then just 











not touching the car, hopefully the update will be...... ok.


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

LOL thats the thing with VW's, sometimes its something simple thats causes major issues. I cant tell you how many times Ive had something small cause a major breakdown. And since your car was running like a champ and then the next day it craps out, Im sure its something small


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Cherb32 said:


> LOL thats the thing with VW's, sometimes its something simple thats causes major issues. I cant tell you how many times Ive had something small cause a major breakdown. And since your car was running like a champ and then the next day it craps out, Im sure its something small


yeah man I hope so thanks for the good vibes.. we will see what happens tomorrow fingers are still crossed.


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Couldnt get any live data via the vagcom because by car wont actually turn over and run (should have known this brain fart :facepalm. So its getting towed to Redline Motorsports in Cockeysville there is a VW/Audi tech up there that my buddy swears on, and he knows the most about VW's out of any person I know so his opinion is worth alot to me. Its a small time shop but very very credible, hopefully they will take care of everything. Will keep thread updated when I get a quote and a diagnostic from the guys up there. towing it up when I can get a minute away from work.:thumbup:


On the light side, passed the Series 63 securities exam today though so that is the good news it had been taking alot of my time away from the car so now the VW can become the focus. H20i is only a couple months away it needs to be on the road. :beer:


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

So.. quick update my ecm fuse was blown so the guys at Redline ordered a new one so they can do a proper diagnostic on it today, they ran it for a bit just holding down the relay yesterday and they were 99% sure it had nothing to do with the timing chain which is a huge relief. May or may not need a new ECM... will update later today with the final prognosis. :thumbup:


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

Ahhhhh so it WAS something simple lol.. typical VW's:thumbup:


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Cherb32 said:


> Ahhhhh so it WAS something simple lol.. typical VW's:thumbup:


 Yeah we forgot to knock on wood.... Got the call from Redline its official the chains are bad, according to the vagcom. All symptoms point thats the case, Ill let the guys over a Redline take care of business, should be done next wed.-thurs. Its going to be $1700 bucks :sly: to replace both the top and the bottom timing chain.... there you have it the flaw in the vw 2.5 motor never ceases to amaze me I did everything right full synthetic oil changes every 5K, never had a check engine light, had my tune-up done on time, zero chain noise, and boom failure. **** me.


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

kitten_puncher said:


> Yeah we forgot to knock on wood.... Got the call from Redline its official the chains are bad, according to the vagcom. All symptoms point thats the case, Ill let the guys over a Redline take care of business, should be done next wed.-thurs. Its going to be $1700 bucks :sly: to replace both the top and the bottom timing chain.... there you have it the flaw in the vw 2.5 motor never ceases to amaze me I did everything right full synthetic oil changes every 5K, never had a check engine light, had my tune-up done on time, zero chain noise, and boom failure. **** me.


 Nooooooooooooooooooo:thumbdown::thumbdown: Yeah we should have knocked on wood. Sorry to hear that man...smh. Are they going to use the current guides for the new chain (in the 08 motor) so it doesnt happen again?


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah man huge bummer, they are checking everything over today internally, making sure there was no damage aside from the guides i.e. no bent rods or wacked out pistons. Talked with them for a bit yesterday good dudes up there at Redline, they are definently going to put 08 guides in there he thought it would be a seemless replacement. 

It a love hate thing with these VW's but we always seem to come back to them.


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## psn (May 22, 2012)

Been following this thread for a bit; sorry to hear about your engine, but at least it's on the road to recovery (no pun intended). 



kitten_puncher said:


> It a love hate thing with these VW's but we always seem to come back to them.


 ^Truth.


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

psn said:


> Been following this thread for a bit; sorry to hear about your engine, but at least it's on the road to recovery (no pun intended).


 Thanks boss, hopefully I will have it back by friday.


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

Thats it thats all 2 Chainz. It was both upper and lower timing chains they skipped some teeth guides were worn no internal damage engine is in great shape no sludge, car runs like new but I guess it should for a cool 17 hundo. Is what it is I woulda bought an audi if I wanted cheap maintanence :laugh:


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