# Delayed boost with K04



## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

I recently installed a K04 on my Mk5 and am running the Driver Motorsports K04+ tune. In the first week or so, there were some fitment issues with the throttle body pipe, which caused the intercooler outlet pipe to blow loose on several occasions. However, the car ran great, with loads of torque and was traction easily at 3,000 RPM. 

Anyway, all the fitment issues are resolved after I modified the throttle body pipe mounts. 

The problem is, the car no longer has the low end punch that it did when I was experiencing the fitment issues. It feels like the torque is still there, but it would not build up to it until much higher RPMs (maybe 5,000+ RPM). The tires would no longer break loose like before, unless I floor it completely. This was not the case just last week. 

I have removed and reinstalled every single piece of charge piping from the turbo outlet onwards, and couldn't fault anything. I even replaced my hose clamps with new ones to make sure there are no leaks. The clamps need to hold 23-25psi, which is not tough for them to do, I think - Basically, if I tightened the clamps any more, the worm gear would start stripping (happened once, and was replaced).

My VAGCOM logs look fine (I think), but the power is definitely lower than it used to be, and very noticeably:










When I accelerate, I can easily pinpoint the air travelling from the intake to the turbo, and then through the intercooler, etc. Basically, the air is travelling slow enough on hard acceleration that I can easily hear where it is in the system. Could I STILL have a leak even if my logs show I can hit specified boost?

The one piece that troubles me is the fitment of the S3 turbo outlet pipe. It does not want to sit very well. Everytime I reinstall it, I have to stretch it towards the front of the engine by about 1 inch for the mounting holes to align. Is this normal at all? Could there be an intermittent leak there?

What about partially stuck open wastegate? N75 looks fine, but could the wastegate still be physically faulty?


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Things I checked:

-Diverter valve
No issues. Swapped between rev. D OEM DV and AWE vacuum DV and no difference noted.

-Tune
Reloaded the tune. No change

-VAGCOM
Scanned for fault codes. None found.

-Exhaust manifold
Checked to make sure manifold is tight. All nuts were torqued to spec. No issues.



What else should I check?


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

I don't see a problem with it. It is exceeding specified within 600 rpm from when you are at full throttle correct?


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

perpetuus_delirium said:


> Things I checked:
> 
> -Diverter valve
> No issues. Swapped between rev. D OEM DV and AWE vacuum DV and no difference noted.
> ...


First of all, this is a very thoughtful post with helpful logs and data plots. If only everyone were so organized when they ask questions! Kudos for that.

Next, I think this is perfectly normal. It's easy to forget that turbos take time to develop pressure. Your N75 is maxed out boost is at specified once at steady state... There is a beautiful boost response and reflexive relaxation of the N75. I think this looks good. The risk you run in slamming the n75 for much longer is significant overshoot (for the same reason as turbo lag but at the opposite end of the spectrum, getting it to spin at specified pressure).


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

majic said:


> First of all, this is a very thoughtful post with helpful logs and data plots. If only everyone were so organized when they ask questions! Kudos for that.
> 
> Next, I think this is perfectly normal. It's easy to forget that turbos take time to develop pressure. Your N75 is maxed out boost is at specified once at steady state... There is a beautiful boost response and reflexive relaxation of the N75. I think this looks good. The risk you run in slamming the n75 for much longer is significant overshoot (for the same reason as turbo lag but at the opposite end of the spectrum, getting it to spin at specified pressure).


Thanks. I tried to do everything I could to get the post accurate.

I know the graph looks fine, and the N75 is probably OK, but every night I drive it, the boost gets more and more delayed. 

For example, last night it became worse, and there was absolutely zero torque ramping up to full spool at 3000 RPM. It felt stock in the power delivery, except with lots of noises from the air circulating through the charge system. I firmly believe that it is louder than it had used to be. I also was unable to get any power up top last night at 5000 RPM +. The motor revs relatively freely, but with stock levels of torque.

Then, I scanned the car again, and saw my long term fuel trims at +1.5% for idle, and +9.0% for partial load. 

Afterwards, I ran an auto-scan for all modules, and found several malfunctions. The strange thing is that some of the malfunctions showed mileages from a LONG time ago (6 years ago, at 4,080 KM!!). I couldn't make sense of that.
The car ran better after clearing all codes with better power delivery down low, but is missing power up top like before.

Because I can hear loud air induction/leaking from the passenger side under load, I highly suspect that the fitment of my S3 turbo outlet pipe is not 100%. It will physically click into the turbo outlet flange, but the side mount holes do not line up with the oil pan. I had to stretch the pipe forward to the front of the car while screwing the two mounting bolts in. I really think this is the culprit that might be causing an intermittently loose connection. (It had already blown loose on one occasion previously)

I've ordered an aftermarket turbo outlet pipe, to get rid of the clip-style connection at the turbo and hoping it will be a better, and leak-free fit.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

The accompanying VAGCOM log I pulled last night, with multiple fault codes.
I removed the last 6 digits of the VIN, but the current mileage is 54,250 KM, but the steering control module showed a code at 4,080 KM. What does this mean? I also have another inconsistent mileage that shows 54,099 KM in the scan. 

Before this scan, I have scanned and cleared my codes just last week. I can't make sense of the inconsistent mileages.



______________________________________________________


Tuesday,29,July,2014,20:57:59:17780
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222


Chassis Type: 1K0
Scan: 01 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 1C 25 42 44 46 52 55 56

VIN: WVWEV71K97Wxxxxxx Mileage: 54250km/33709miles

00-Steering Angle Sensor -- Status: OK 0000
*01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 1010*
*03-ABS Brakes -- Status: Malfunction 0010
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 0010
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: Malfunction 0010*
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
*17-Instruments -- Status: Malfunction 0010
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: Malfunction 0010*
1C-Position Sensing -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
*44-Steering Assist -- Status: Malfunction 0010*
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
*55-Xenon Range -- Status: Malfunction 0010*
56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 907 115 H HW: 8P0 907 115 B
Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0040 
Revision: 5BH15--- Serial number: VWZ7Z0F8204995
Coding: 0403010A18070160
Shop #: WSC 66565 257 00032
VCID: 2B5EA8D58A404440A4E

*1 Fault Found:
008598 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1 
P2196 - 004 - Signal too High (Rich) - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 54175 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 12:05:44

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 759 /min
Load: 21.6 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 92.0°C
Temperature: 51.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 970.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.462 V

Readiness: 0000 0000
*
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1K0-907-379-MK60-F.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 AC HW: 1K0 907 379 AC
Component: ESP FRONT MK60 0101 
Revision: 00H11001 
Coding: 0021122
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 73EE70B512F05C802CE

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 1K0-820-047.lbl
Part No: 1K0 820 047 GL
Component: Climatic PQ35 120 0606 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 74EC73A917FE5BB8354

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3C0-937-049-23-H.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 937 049 AE HW: 3C0 937 049 AE
Component: Bordnetz-SG H52 2002 
Revision: 00H52000 Serial number: 00000006408293
Coding: 078D8F214004150047140000001400000038770B5C0001
Shop #: WSC 93008 999 83881
VCID: 6CDC6BC94FCE8378ED4

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1K1 955 119 E Labels: 1KX-955-119.CLB
Component: Wischer 131006 020 0501 
Coding: 00038805
Shop #: WSC 93008 

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 145
Mileage: 54099 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
ON 
Voltage: 12.40 V
ON 
ON 
OFF 
OFF 
OFF 


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 1K0-909-605.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 909 605 AB HW: 1K0 909 605 AB
Component: 5M AIRBAG VW8R 034 8000 
Revision: 05034000 Serial number: 003B6D07GL2- 
Coding: 0013645
Shop #: WSC 01269 785 00200
VCID: 6CDC6BC94FCE8378ED4

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 1K0-953-549-MY8.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 953 549 AG HW: 1K0 953 549 AG
Component: J0527 636 0070 
Coding: 0002022
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 77F644A5068830A0106

Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: E0221 002 0010

No fault code found.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1K0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No SW: 1K6 920 873 A HW: 1K6 920 873 A
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT VDD 1610 
Revision: V0003000 Serial number: VWZ7Z0F8204995
Coding: 0007307
Shop #: WSC 93030 999 57625
VCID: 3064BFB9A366279891C

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 145
Mileage: 54099 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 05:34:32


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 1K0-907-530-V2.clb
Part No SW: 1K0 907 530 K HW: 1K0 907 951 
Component: J533__Gateway H04 0020 
Revision: H04 02 Serial number: 14100602000876
Coding: 7D0F03400F000000
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 2F66BCC5BE583860886

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 145
Mileage: 54099 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 05:34:33

*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 1C: Position Sensing Labels: 1Kx-919-xxx-1C.lbl
Part No SW: 1K6 919 879 HW: 1K6 919 879 
Component: Kompass 001 0003 
Revision: 00001000 Serial number: 1225223T1QBV03
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: FDFAD68DA4B49AF0CAA

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer Labels: 1K0-920-xxx-25.clb
Part No SW: 1K6 920 873 A HW: 1K6 920 873 A
Component: IMMO VDD 1610 
Revision: V0003000 Serial number: VWZ7Z0F8204995
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3064BFB9A366279891C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver Labels: 1K0-959-701-MIN3.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 959 701 M HW: 1K0 959 701 M
Component: Tuer-SG 005 0967 
Coding: 0001077
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 387487994B16FFD8D9C

No fault code found.
*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist Labels: 1Kx-909-14x-44.clb
Part No: 1K1 909 144 K
Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl.0 D06 1701 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 336EB0B552701C80ECE

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Mileage: 4080 km
Temperature: 26.0°C
Voltage: 12.50 V
Voltage: 12.30 V

*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1K0-959-433-MAX.clb
Part No SW: 1K0 959 433 CA HW: 1K0 959 433 CA
Component: KSG PQ35 G2 020 0203 
Revision: 00020000 Serial number: 00000000000000
Coding: 9390068851030C3E2904058FB0080A0488BC00
Shop #: WSC 01287 785 00200
VCID: 71E27ABD68EC6E90DE2

Component: Sounder n.mounted 

Component: NGS n.mounted 

Component: IRUE n.mounted 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass. Labels: 1K0-959-702-MIN3.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 959 702 M HW: 1K0 959 702 M
Component: Tuer-SG 005 0967 
Coding: 0001076
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 3972829D701CE6D0262

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Address 55: Xenon Range Labels: 1T0-907-357.lbl
Part No: 1T0 907 357 
Component: Dynamische LWR 0003 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: F4ECF3A997FEDBB8B54

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 1K0-035-1xx-56.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 035 180 H HW: 1K0 035 180 H
Component: Radio PM6 017 0023 
Revision: 00017000 Serial number: VWZ5Z7F2116808
Coding: 0040401
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 254A5EEDECA4723072A

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

perpetuus_delirium said:


> Thanks. I tried to do everything I could to get the post accurate.
> 
> I know the graph looks fine, and the N75 is probably OK, but every night I drive it, the boost gets more and more delayed.
> 
> ...



I would expect long term fuel trims to be much higher than that if you had a leak, but... Have you checked the turbo I let pipe?

When my intake was slipping off the turbo at the intake, it would make some wicked loud sounds, and I had no power... It was aweful.

Just a thought.


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Also... Can you post a log showing your lambda during a pull? Also include the MAF readings.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

majic said:


> I would expect long term fuel trims to be much higher than that if you had a leak, but... Have you checked the turbo I let pipe?
> 
> When my intake was slipping off the turbo at the intake, it would make some wicked loud sounds, and I had no power... It was aweful.
> 
> Just a thought.


Funny that you mentioned intake.

I know my intake is not fitting the best, because I have had to tighten it up a little last week. The reason is because I am running a T-shaped coupler at the turbo inlet for the DV relocation, which required some modification to fit my VWR intake.

I bought a 90 degree aluminium elbow for this, and a coupler to connect it to the rest of the VWR intake. The elbow was cut to length, but I had to cut a little into the radius of the bend. So, there is a slight tension at the straight (red) coupler that is not perfect for the fit over the turbo inlet. Not sure how much this affects it, but but the hose clamps are keeping it in place.









The 90 degree tubing before I trimmed down the two legs to fit.









The red coupler sits slightly tilted because it had to slip partially onto the radius of the 90 degree elbow tubing









Before fitting coupler. Note slanted cut into elbow









Close up of coupler and slanted fitment









My S3 turbo outlet pipe coming loose almost right after my K04 install last month. I have since clipped it back in, but there has always been tension pulling on that pipe because of poor alignment, which I suspect could be causing some issues. It almost seems like the silicone coupler on it is too short.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Regarding the turbo outlet...I made/modified mine, but I had an AWE outlet coupler to work with. I used a vibrant hose and cut the oem tube. If you can locate a bolt on outlet coupler you could do this.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

ROH ECHT said:


> Regarding the turbo outlet...I made/modified mine, but I had an AWE outlet coupler to work with. I used a vibrant hose and cut the oem tube. If you can locate a bolt on outlet coupler you could do this.


Are you running a modified S3 turbo outlet pipe there? Curious if you had fitment issues too.

I was under the impression that the S3 pipe is complete bolt on with no mods needed. Which Vibrant hose did you buy to make it fit?


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

No, with the AWE K04 kit they give a turbo outlet alloy coupler and a short portion of rubber hose to connect to the oem pipe, but you have to trim down the oem pipe a bit first. So it is still the oem pipe but I cut it off even more:
This isn't mine, but the red and green marks I added to show where I cut it about the green line to avoid the two pinch points marked by red arrows:



The outlet adapter looks like this:


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

I also just switched over to DM and I have the Both a MAf Tune and A MAFless tune...everything was pretty smooth up until last tuesday...I started throwing all kinds of Front o2 sensor too rich codes. 

As a precaution I swapped it out, mine had never been changed in 95k miles...I also switched out my intake for the new CTS 3 inch and am now running mafless, so far so good! 

If that o2 sensor code keeps popping up you should think about changing it out


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Rub-ISH said:


> I also just switched over to DM and I have the Both a MAf Tune and A MAFless tune...everything was pretty smooth up until last tuesday...I started throwing all kinds of Front o2 sensor too rich codes.
> 
> As a precaution I swapped it out, mine had never been changed in 95k miles...I also switched out my intake for the new CTS 3 inch and am now running mafless, so far so good!
> 
> If that o2 sensor code keeps popping up you should think about changing it out


I also got a front O2 sensor too rich code yesterday. This happened at idle with the car fully warmed up 30 minutes ago. Was about to do some VAGCOM logs but the CEL came on.

What's strange is that the car is running so rich that when I let off the throttle between 1st -> 2nd, or 2nd-> 3rd gear, there is a loud pop in the exhaust, somewhere near the downpipe. It is not a drone noise or exhaust burble, but a backfire or afterfire of some sort. There is definitely unburnt fuel exploding in the exhaust. I never had this sound before the K04. It is loud and scares little children walking by. 

Not sure what else to check, but I no longer hear the wastegate opening unless I stab the throttle hard and hold it there. When my K04 was working right, only a moderate amount of tip-in to the accelerator pedal would open the wastegate and build great power.

I am going to replace that front O2 today and check again.

Here is the code:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 907 115 H HW: 8P0 907 115 B
Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0040 
Revision: 5BH15--- Serial number: VWZ7Z0F8204995
Coding: 0403010A18070160
Shop #: WSC 66565 257 00032
VCID: 2B5EA8D58A404440A4E

1 Fault Found:
008598 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1 
P2196 - 004 - Signal too High (Rich) - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 54319 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 1018

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 769 /min
Load: 19.6 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 90.0°C
Temperature: 36.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 980.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.843 V

Readiness: 0000 0000


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Pulled some logs today. I forgot to log N75, but regardless, the boost does show that it is holding fine.

I also logged ignition timing, which looks quite strange. Now I am suspecting that the boost is fine, but the fuel is not being burnt well - also explains loud pops in exhaust after letting off throttle maybe. For sure there is excess fuel making it to the exhaust, even after I fixed the downpipe leak and confirmed that it is still tight. So, it might be worthwhile to rephrase the problem - the K04 is boosting well, but the engine is not making good power. The car feels heavy when accelerating, like it is hitting a wall.

What do you guys think? New coil pack, new spark plugs, new O2 sensor?

Long term fuel trims are also quite strange..it thinks the car is rich both in idle, and in partial loading. The long term fuel trims used to be -1.9% and + 8% for idle and partial just earlier today. I pulled the fuel trims after a long and steady drive on the highway.
Also, check out the timing angles... is it completely out of whack, or is it just me? You can see that before I boost (or when fully releasing the gas pedal to relieve boost), the timing is +35 degrees BTDC.


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

perpetuus_delirium said:


> Pulled some logs today. I forgot to log N75, but regardless, the boost does show that it is holding fine.
> 
> I also logged ignition timing, which looks quite strange. Now I am suspecting that the boost is fine, but the fuel is not being burnt well - also explains loud pops in exhaust after letting off throttle maybe. For sure there is excess fuel making it to the exhaust, even after I fixed the downpipe leak and confirmed that it is still tight. So, it might be worthwhile to rephrase the problem - the K04 is boosting well, but the engine is not making good power. The car feels heavy when accelerating, like it is hitting a wall.
> 
> ...


Log your injector duty cycle and your high pressure fuel pump specified vs actual. You might have low fuel pressure


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

majic said:


> Log your injector duty cycle and your high pressure fuel pump specified vs actual. You might have low fuel pressure


I will log again for that, but for now:

Here is the cylinder CF- It is pulling up to 5.3 degrees of timing in cylinder 1, and 4.5 in cylinder 2. Looks like it is pulling timing from all cylinders, starting from cylinder 4 at 2000 RPM, up to 3520 RPM.











Rail pressure looks ok? I know it's hitting just shy of specified though. Largest gap is at 3760 RPM, where it is reaching 126 bar instead of the specified 130 bar. But, it eventually hits 130 bar at about 5000 RPM.











*And, although I didn't log fueling yesterday, this log from two days ago shows that it's just fine:
*


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

FYI there is a new K04 file from DM...Just got it today...Hit up the boys


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Rub-ISH said:


> FYI there is a new K04 file from DM...Just got it today...Hit up the boys


I got the new file last night too. 
V4.21, right?

Well, I flashed the car right away, and still the issues are there. While I am not convinced it's a software problem, it is definitely still frustrating.

The car is still not running properly (lacks torque, struggles to deliver power despite good boost logs), even after reflashing the ECU with the latest K04+ tune. 
Also, idling is a little on the rough side and the RPMs may somewhat surge up/down randomly. The power delivery is also not linear or consistent, feels like it's hitting a wall.

*Timing Pull is still looking strange....
*









*Lambda Correction is fluctuating up and down while accelerating at full throttle. What does this mean?*









*Boost logs look to be ok*









*Fuel Trims after long highway drive*









*And, although I didn't log fueling yesterday, this log from two days ago shows that it's just fine*












What do you guys think?


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

perpetuus_delirium said:


> I got the new file last night too.
> V4.21, right?
> 
> Well, I flashed the car right away, and still the issues are there. While I am not convinced it's a software problem, it is definitely still frustrating.
> ...


5 degrees of timing pull is okay. Any more than five and you want to take .5 to 1 from
The target timing map. 

Fuel looks good.

Lambda is going to flop around, it can only correct so fast... And for that matter, above a certain temp it doesn't even go off lambda (it just goes rich) because at high rpm the feedback loop is too quick to make fuel adjustments... Timing pull is easier to make rapid adjustments to, so it will pull timing to protect the motor. 

Looking at your fuel trims, spec is less than 12% on long term fuel trim. 

So to be perfectly honest, these are the most normal logs I've seen in a while lol. But... That being said, these also speak I the great product that DM has... That's a solid linear turbo response, great boost control.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

majic said:


> 5 degrees of timing pull is okay. Any more than five and you want to take .5 to 1 from
> The target timing map.
> 
> Fuel looks good.
> ...


You are right, the logs don't reveal a problem. But, it most definitely is there... and is not being picked up by the sensors.

If I am building proper boost, could an exhaust leak still be possible?

How about leak at intake manifold, or after the throttle body? (I have a USRT spacer installed there).

Also, why does it run smoother with MAF unplugged?


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

One minor detail I forgot to mention:

Last week when I was pulling all sorts of codes, I went and checked my downpipe and found it was loose pre-cat. The downpipe was still connected to the cat, but the cat had shifted backwards towards the rear of the car, and was loose. There were even some witness marks on it. I suspect the car was running with a loose cat for the first week (or two weeks). 

Now I've made double sure that the cat was firmly clamped in place. It looks like my clamp was not fitting directly over the compressible portion of the cat before (with the three slits on the pipe). 

Could this have destroyed my cat? I could hear a rattle from the exhaust at certain RPMs while accelerating hard. If it destroyed my cat, would it be causing the low power issues?

Also the car seems to deliver good power like I remembered when I stab the gas hard ( at, or close to 100% throttle) when the RPM is at 3,500 or higher. This is the ONLY scenario where I could still hear the wastegate opening. When the car was running right, even a modestly firm pedal effort would open up the wastegates (i.e: at medium loads at around 3,000 RPM, without the need to stab the throttle hard).

Here is the portion pre-cat that slid off. It is before the secondary O2 sensor. I cannot find any codes that were set off.


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## Super .:R-Type (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as some of the other guys who have replied so far, but I'll offer a hypothesis:

Unburnt fuel detonates in exhaust and either a) blows DP loose or b) blows DP loose & destroys cat
Destroyed cat chunks clogging DP and/or catback causing backpressure in exhaust making car feel sluggish


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

perpetuus_delirium said:


> You are right, the logs don't reveal a problem. But, it most definitely is there... and is not being picked up by the sensors.
> 
> If I am building proper boost, could an exhaust leak still be possible?
> 
> ...





perpetuus_delirium said:


> One minor detail I forgot to mention:
> 
> Last week when I was pulling all sorts of codes, I went and checked my downpipe and found it was loose pre-cat. The downpipe was still connected to the cat, but the cat had shifted backwards towards the rear of the car, and was loose. There were even some witness marks on it. I suspect the car was running with a loose cat for the first week (or two weeks).
> 
> ...


IMO, the logs do reveal a problem. Even though you're not pulling an excessive amount of timing, your advance is way too low on boost ramp up. Single digit advance is normal in this area, but not 6deg ATDC. You're down 10-15deg from ideal in this area. You can also see the wall you refer to by the massive stall in MAF flow. Might want to run some logs that include the throttle angle.

Sure, you could still be building boost w/ an exhaust leak. Unless it's a huge leak, there is more than enough exhaust pressure to spool the stock turbo. Leaks on the intake side are a bigger problem for building boost. Exhaust leaks before the primary o2 will confuse the ECU and can result in poor performance or engine damage from inconsistent and inaccurate A/F readings.

You need to pressure test your intake to check for any leaks. A visual test will not cut it. You need to be absolutely leak free while under 20+psi of pressure from the MAF all the way to the primary o2.

If the car runs better with the MAF unplugged, it means the car is not metering the correct amount of air. Either a sensor is faulty (MAF or primary o2), or you have a vacuum leak.

Take care of the exhaust leak, pressure test the intake and take some more logs. Gotta start with a solid baseline to diagnose from or you'll run in circles throwing time and money at it.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Super .:R-Type said:


> I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as some of the other guys who have replied so far, but I'll offer a hypothesis:
> 
> Unburnt fuel detonates in exhaust and either a) blows DP loose or b) blows DP loose & destroys cat
> Destroyed cat chunks clogging DP and/or catback causing backpressure in exhaust making car feel sluggish


Yes, I agree that this is a very real possibility where the cat could be damaged, and I am not ruling it out. 

But, I have now fixed the leak at the downpipe and cat, and drove the car tonight again, I can say that the revs can definitely climb fairly effortlessly. The only problem is that as the revs climb, the car feels gutless and low on torque, as if the turbo is not working (but it is).

Before, I was able to hear the wastegate open LOUDLY when the car was making excellent power. I take this to mean that there was alot of charge air in the turbo waiting to be released. Contrast that to now, I can no longer hear the wastegate at all, unless I stab the throttle very quickly and very hard at a higher RPM (3500 RPM or higher). I could feel that the power is being made in that scenario, but ONLY in that scenario.

I talked to my friend about this issue, and we suspected that maybe the logs are not showing any boost leak because the leak might be after the MAP sensor. It's a fair point, and would explain that all the logs look OK, and the surplus of fuel in the exhaust that should accompany more oxygen (charge air) that the ECU anticipates to be there. Well, I pulled off the intercooler outlet pipe, the throttle body pipe, and the J-coupler at the throttle body after the MAP sensor and refitted everything. To my surprise, there was zero change to the way the car drives, and the issue is still unresolved.

I believe now that the turbo is still making proper boost, and that boost is reaching the engine. However, it seems as though the engine is not using that charge air properly as it is running too rich (based on surplus fuel in exhaust). The reason I believe the charge air is not leaking is because I remember distinctly a slight resistance in the powerband when climbing from 2,000 to 3,000 RPM. When working correctly, the torque ramps up impressively from 2,000 RPM to 3,000 RPM. I assume this is when the turbo is on its way to full spool. Now, I can still feel the "resistance" in this rev range, but the torque is not climbing like it used to. I had to consciously keep the revs below 3,000 RPM to not break the wheels loose before. This is no longer the case, since the wheels dont break loose at any RPM (except when I stab the throttle hard like I described before).


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

bzflag said:


> IMO, the logs do reveal a problem. Even though you're not pulling an excessive amount of timing, your advance is way too low on boost ramp up. Single digit advance is normal in this area, but not 6deg ATDC. You're down 10-15deg from ideal in this area. You can also see the wall you refer to by the massive stall in MAF flow. Might want to run some logs that include the throttle angle.
> 
> Sure, you could still be building boost w/ an exhaust leak. Unless it's a huge leak, there is more than enough exhaust pressure to spool the stock turbo. Leaks on the intake side are a bigger problem for building boost. Exhaust leaks before the primary o2 will confuse the ECU and can result in poor performance or engine damage from inconsistent and inaccurate A/F readings.
> 
> ...



The MAF g/s drop in the plot was considered normal by DM. They told me that it's normal because at the flow rate, it is getting close to the onset of the "surge line" for the turbo. In all my logs, I plotted them with WOT on acceleration. I believe the throttle position showed up as 80% as corresponding to 100% gas pedal application in my drives.

These are logs I did two nights ago. The exhaust leak has been fixed before these logs. 


















I think you are right about the ignition timing. DM pointed this out in the beginning too, but later on they said it's OK and only pulls about 10-15hp. 

What controls the ignition timing in our cars? I am not getting misfires, so what is commanding it to advance so slowly on boost ramp up?

I have pressurized the intake previously with the rear PCV disconnected. The problem is, I was not able to put much pressure in the turbo inlet before the engine oil starts gurgling and I had to pause the test. What am I missing in the pressure test?? If there is a leak after the MAF so the turbo is seeing more air than it thinks, how would it affect performance? Would turbo spool not be faster as a result of the surplus air? I am curious because my logs show that it is boosting and holding 23 psi.


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

Knock sensors will usually pull timing long before audible misfires occur. They'll pick up on detonation and pull timing.

Test or replace knock sensor?

Or... This might be a silly question, but have you tried changing your gas station?


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

majic said:


> Knock sensors will usually pull timing long before audible misfires occur. They'll pick up on detonation and pull timing.
> 
> Test or replace knock sensor?
> 
> Or... This might be a silly question, but have you tried changing your gas station?


Haven't tried another gas station after installing K04, it's been Shell 91 all along.

How do I test the knock sensor? In VAGCOM I can read the CF for each cylinder, but what about reading the knock sensor more directly? Which channel am I looking for?

Also, I was told that my NGK PFRS8EG spark plugs have too wide a gap for my K04. I will try to regap them. Could this possibly contribute to the lack of torque and unspent fuel exploding in the exhaust?

Another observation is that the while cruising in 4th gear on the highway at 3,500 RPM, if I lift my foot off the gas and then reapply gas, the car seems to be quite slow to resume its power from before lifting off the gas. Is that normal for a turbo engine?

I also had a chance to replace my wideband AF sensor. The car idles quieter now and the throttle is more responsive and smoother overall. I am happy with the change. Power is not improved, however. (Or only marginally improved)


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## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

perpetuus_delirium said:


> Haven't tried another gas station after installing K04, it's been Shell 91 all along.
> 
> How do I test the knock sensor? In VAGCOM I can read the CF for each cylinder, but what about reading the knock sensor more directly? Which channel am I looking for?
> 
> ...


Try blocks 14/15/16


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

majic said:


> Try blocks 14/15/16


Pulled logs again tonight.

No misfire codes whatsoever. However, I saw 3 misfires in cylinder 3 while just looking at blocks 14/15/16 in the simple measuring blocks. The misfire counter resetted itself back to 0 afterwards, and I did not see anything while I logged it:












Something else peculiar is that I was doing a hard pull on the highway last night. Right after the hard pull, I was playing with the throttle between 2,600 RPM and 3,200 RPM and I could tell that most of the torque was back. I don't really understand it. Maybe it really spells cat failure if the hard pull blew out some of the honeycomb media that was blocking the exhaust flow before. I talked to DM and they told me that code P0420 is deleted for this tune. P0420 is for Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1). If my theory is correct, the cat could be completely destroyed and the ECU would not report it...

Also, take a look at these logs (you might have to look at both at the same time to see throttle position). It appears that I am spiking 30 psi momentarily, AFTER releasing the throttle.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Guys, I am still chasing this problem. I have since switched tunes from Driver Motorsports to Unitronic but it appears that the problem is still there.

I took it to a local VW/Audi performance shop and they mechanically tested for boost pressure with a gauge - looks like I am building boost and holding it just fine.
However, I showed him the logs and he also believes that I am pulling too much timing. Particularly, the timing should not be negative for the entire duration of WOT up to about 6,000 RPM.

Last year I took my K04 out of the car again to inspect it. There were no issues whatsoever. While I was at it, I replaced the N75 too just in case.

Basically, I don't think that there is a boost leak. It's just that the boost is not being used because of excessive timing pull, because I can definitely feel the power at about 6,000 RPM onwards. 

I pulled two graphs again to compare them. 

The first graph is with APR stage 2+ on the stock K03 and Wagner Intercooler (should perform the same as APR's).

The second graph is with the Driver Motorsports K04+ tune with K04, and the same intercooler.

There are some ripples to the timing in the first graph, but the car engine never goes into negative timing despite WOT, and instead gives 5 to 10 degrees of positive timing for the most part. On the K04+ tune, the same WOT scenario is showing negative timing until about 4,000 RPM.


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## perpetuus_delirium (Jul 12, 2005)

Something else of interest:


When I installed my K04, I put in a water/meth injection spacer between the throttle body pipe and the throttle body itself. This appears to directly affect the Intake Air Temp. sensor harness, since the wiring is now "just" long enough, or so I thought.

Last week I looked at this harness again, and now the plastic sheathing for this harness looks like this:

1) Water meth spacer placement and stretched IAT harness










2) Another view










3) IAT harness unplugged. The plastic sheathing is no longer clipped in this time, due to the extension?










I need to bolt the suspension and subframe back on the car before I can drive it again, but this is the only idea I have right now.. an intermittent connection at the harness?
Last time I drove the car - if I drove it with hard acceleration and braking, sometimes the power seems to come back momentarily. This surely feels like an electronic problem. Could the IAT readings be off and telling the ECU to pull more timing than normal?

What do you guys think? Also, how do I diagnose this harness other than the resistance check?


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## Josein06GLI (Jun 29, 2008)

Are you running meth or just using it as a spacer with a plug in it? Message me. I have a similar setup and also run meth with the same tune company you have 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


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