# 8v gurus please chime in,rocco has spark,timed,fuel,still wont start!!!



## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

please fellow 8valvers i need help!!!! i recently bought a 85 rocco 8v that got the head gasket replaced to long ago(cis worked fine before rebuild and wasent touched or even looked at funny) so me and the local vortexer who did the head gasket work thought this would be an easy project...:banghead: should have known better. so heres the problem the engine is timed properly acccording to all the marks (cam,intermediate,crank,tranny,dizzy) all it does is chug and chug but wont start, it will make a poping sound sometimes. i should mention the reason it got a head gasket changed as stated by p/o is "i was on the highway and it overheated,i saw oil in the coolant" prior to this the car was a daily driver (77k). Ive comfirmed there is compression and the piston was at tdc with timing marks. I switched over to a battery know to be good(voltmeter)and put a battery charger on it; now heres the kicker although it chugs and chugs when i try to start it it seem like a slow chug (ive heard other 8v before on startup i seem to remeber them chuge faster) is can see the tach bouncing up to 300rpm or so, is that to slow?sounds lazy, could that be the or part or my problem? o and yes im getting fuel(i can smell it) yes im getting spark(my friend got zapped) there are no loose grounds or connections that i could see and i rooted around all day in there pretty good...please help i need a car so bad  thanks in advance


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*heeeeelp!*

early morning bump! heres something else it does....when i try to start it with the batteru charger on batt it chugs a little faster for a few seconds and then slows down....somebody please help


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

sounds like the cam is 180* out. Have you tried it with the cam at the other mark?


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*I agree*

Me and my buddy thought the same thing so we retimed it using the other mark on da cam (opposite the valve cover as well as the one on the other side)and nada.


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## AnAgentOrange (Jul 14, 2011)

You're talking about using the mark on the back side (when looking from the passenger side of car) of the cam gear? Or did you mistakenly use the mark on the front of the cam gear? I ask because I did this once...


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*timed*

ive timed it both ways...it still wont start...just put in order for a new starter...ill throw that in and see what happens


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## AnAgentOrange (Jul 14, 2011)

If the vehicle is cranking fine, I wouldn't throw money at a starter. Put a jumper on it and see, but it sounds to me like timing is still off somehow...


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*how*

but then if thats the case how do i confirm what my timing really is...timign light?.....:banghead:


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

toastystuff said:


> but then if thats the case how do i confirm what my timing really is...timign light?.....:banghead:


That would confirm for spark timing.For the mechanical timing, set the crank at TDC and the mark for on the flywheel should line up with the pointer and the mark on the pulley should match the mark on the cover. The cam should have both lobes "up". And the dizzy should have the rotor pointed at the small mark on the lip of the dizzy body.


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*did that*

used witness hole on tranny aligned it all up


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*tdc*

yes i checked for tdc


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## AnAgentOrange (Jul 14, 2011)

toastystuff said:


> used witness hole on tranny aligned it all up


Using the "O" mark and not the arrow correct? The arrow is 6* BTD I believe


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## Twinrocco's (Jan 8, 2009)

toastystuff said:


> yes i checked for tdc


check the fireing order 1-3-4-2 & Hall sender wires. Try turnning the dizzy colckwise 1/4 ''at a time.
I would replace the Ignition swicth first before a started. good luck
an is the dizzy the vacuume advanced one?


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*Yes*

Yes the dizzy is the vaccum advance type


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*O mark*

Thinking back i did use the arrow for timing the tranny not the "O" would that cause it not to start?


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

Get some whiteout! :laugh:

Stuff sounds legit, but I've personally never seen a starter turn so slow. Toss the starter in and give it another shot


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

starter wll be here today or tomorow,might as well pick up some quickstart....fingers crossed:facepalm:


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## unknowable (Apr 10, 2011)

have you tried some starter fluid?


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

unknowable said:


> have you tried some starter fluid?


No starter fluid, completely forgot it at my house.

It has spark, It has fuel, It has air....

Timing should be dead nuts, I timed it a dozen different times (the MKII Bentley is somewhat confusing mark wise) It was a running car before the PO & I tore it down for a head gasket.

As mentioned above about the mark on the flywheel, there would be no way it could be a tooth off if nothing had been moved, i.e. loosening screw on the dizzy, the majority of it simply had not been messed with, just what was necessary to get the head off.

We should have had some starting fluid, a timing light and compression tester, unfortunately the majority had been lent out. :banghead:


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*lesson learned*

i planned on buying some starter fluid when i pickup new starter...ill try that before opening the box


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## AnAgentOrange (Jul 14, 2011)

Keep us posted on how this goes. Also give her a good charge so you're putting all the amps you can to the starter...


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

AnAgentOrange said:


> Also give her a good charge so you're putting all the amps you can to the starter...


She got a good charge with my new digital Schumacher charger 

We also tried another battery with the charger on "start" still a no go, hopefully going back down sometime early next week to get going on her again and his 91 non-sunroof G60 we got running last week :thumbup:


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## fwdvw (May 12, 2000)

Long shot but with the Flywheel at TDC, did you confirm Cylinder 1 is on a compression stroke or all the way up?

I've seen 2 pin flywheels with only 1 pin put back allowing you to place the flywheel in a different orientation. Machine shops sometimes remove the pins to do a surface and don't always replace them all.

A past clutch job on a running car does not have to be timed so its always possible. I had a car that had no timing marks aligned and was a runner too.

A car to run need only have #1 cylinder all the way up at TDC and the distributor set at the #1 mark. Intermediate shaft mark does not have to be anywhere as long as the distributor is set correctly.


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

fwdvw said:


> Long shot but with the Flywheel at TDC, did you confirm Cylinder 1 is on a compression stroke or all the way up?
> 
> I've seen 2 pin flywheels with only 1 pin put back allowing you to place the flywheel in a different orientation. Machine shops sometimes remove the pins to do a surface and don't always replace them all.
> 
> ...


Yes, it was confirmed to be at TDC :thumbup:


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

Went back at it and still a no go. 

Verified all timing marks to be correct
Tested with a digital strobe, strobe lights up on coil wire only, not any of the 4 plug wires
pulled plugs, getting spark on #1 right when the cam timing mark passes the alignment position
changed plug wires and coil with known working set
checked ground @ head to be 0 ohms to neg battery terminal

I am away from a Bentley ATM, any immediate help would be appreciated, thinking it may be a sensor or random wiring issue, still believe there may be a starter issue not getting enough revs to fire, would have been replaced, but Advance Auto messed up the order :facepalm:


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*please chime in!*

guys i really need some informative and helpful suggestions here...i know theres vortexers out there who have forgotten more than ill ever know about 8 valves...please for the love of v dub karma help me get this piece of SH!T moving before i throw it in the trash:banghead:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

I think this has gone on long enough and not going anywhere that I have seen. Forgive me for doing things this way but for me things have to be made more clear then they are right now to provide any help, if I can. So first I will state things as I understand them and feel free to correct me so I understand completely.
>You purchased this car having been told it had been overheated and you and the prior owner replaced the head gasket. The car ran fine prior to doing the head gasket work. 
>You have checked over and over again the engine timing, not talking ignition right now, and the engine still will not start. All the engine does is “chug” and maybe a pop or two. 
>You state it is getting fuel and spark, air is stupid really to worry about most times. The motor has compression also you said.

So if I have any of the above wrong please correct it or fill in the blanks. Now on to questions about what I’ve read.
>Not that this will probibly matter, but what was the compression readings?
> "Chug" Can you expand on this? A pause due to the mixture igniting or some mechanical blockage?
>Can you explain in detail, pictures would be great, just how you did the engine setup (mechanical timing)? The more details the better. One reason I ask is you stated you think you used the 6° notch rather than the TDC mark. This can throw you off enough to run bad and maybe even not start. This really is an important task which has to be done 100% correct.
>That you can smell fuel means nothing really, except maybe you are now flodded. So what else have you done to test for fuel/fuel pressure? This goes for fuel also. Getting zapped one time, doubt he held it longer than that, really just shows it fired the coil once. Using a timing light (strobe) is also poor unless it is the kind which goes between the plug and wire (think they are all gone in the world by now). Have you tested each plug and long enough to see repeated sparks (could care less if they are orange)?

You have stated,“As mentioned above about the mark on the flywheel, there would be no way it could be a tooth off if nothing had been moved, i.e. loosening screw on the dizzy”, but it is just wishfull thinking. The timing belt was removed so any thing from a strong wind to moving the car by bumping against it can cause things to move. The intermediate shaft seems to rotate just from looking at it and who can replace a cylinder head without leaning against the car? You can not assume that because you did not try to start the car or rotate it by hand with a wrench that nothing has moved.

A simple thing but none the less important is the order in which the spark plug wires are installed in the distributor cap. I see no mention of this being checked or varified. Are they installed in the correct order for the cylinders?


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## AnAgentOrange (Jul 14, 2011)

WaterWheels said:


> The intermediate shaft seems to rotate just from looking at it


So true, lol. I've never done a belt without this giving me a hard time. Definitely need to check where the rotor is pointing when head and crank are at TDC and see what order those wires are in. :thumbup:


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> I think this has gone on long enough and not going anywhere that I have seen. Forgive me for doing things this way but for me things have to be made more clear then they are right now to provide any help, if I can. So first I will state things as I understand them and feel free to correct me so I understand completely.
> >You purchased this car having been told it had been overheated and you and the prior owner replaced the head gasket. The car ran fine prior to doing the head gasket work. *yes, I assisted the PO with the head gasket replacement, not my first  *
> >You have checked over and over again the engine timing, not talking ignition right now, and the engine still will not start. All the engine does is “chug” and maybe a pop or two. *yes, but the discrepancy on the cam timing mark vs the Bentley is screwy, I have tried both marks, engine "chug" is from starter, only had a pop once or twice, none on this last round*
> >You state it is getting fuel and spark, air is stupid really to worry about most times. The motor has compression also you said. *Tested the compression and was super low, but think either the comp tester is faulty or the cam was not timed properly, didn't have enough time to test compression again after using cam secondary mark*
> ...


Thank you for chiming in! I have NEVER had issues like these, EVER... I will do my best to answer everything above in bold :thumbup:

It would help if we had some pics posted, but we don't have any, maybe the owner will take some . *I would like to see what the lobes over cyl #1's orientation is when timed mechanically*

Thanks for the help guys :beer:


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## superl8 (Dec 31, 2002)

distributor may be out of sync with the intermediate shaft. get all your timing marks lined up then pop the cap off and you'll likely see the rotor is not pointing to #1 lead. pull the dizzy turn and re insert with the rotor on #1. start car.

concerning the "lobes" question. both lobes on the intake and exhaust for #1 (right at the cam gear) should form a perfect v in relation to the surface of the head. \ / just like that. 

the marking dot is on the back side of the cam gear it'll wanna be lined up where the cam cover meets gasket meets head - on the front of the motor.


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

superl8 said:


> distributor may be out of sync with the intermediate shaft. get all your timing marks lined up then pop the cap off and you'll likely see the rotor is not pointing to #1 lead. pull the dizzy turn and re insert with the rotor on #1. start car.
> 
> concerning the "lobes" question. both lobes on the intake and exhaust for #1 (right at the cam gear) should form a perfect v in relation to the surface of the head. \ / just like that.
> 
> the marking dot is on the back side of the cam gear it'll wanna be lined up where the cam cover meets gasket meets head - on the front of the motor.


Dizzy and IM are aligned, hell I even spun it to spark a tad early and still nothing.

Sounds good about the description about the lobes, but I'd still like a pic, need to see where these lie.

Clarification: There is no marking "dot" on the back side of the cam gear, there is a groove, or hash mark there, the dot locates on the front


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Not that this will probibly matter, but what was the compression readings? *"45-60-60-75*roughly"

 That is low, really low, and uneven also. But it speaks volumes about what might be the problem here.

Can you explain in detail . . .*"I found and used the 0* mark, lines up with where the nick is supposed to be on the crank pulley as well. . . One tooth on the crank sprocket will push it out way further than 6*"*

OK, that's not exactly a detailed explaination but it does open something up for discussion. What do you mean when you say "lines up with where the nick is supposed to be on the crank pulley as well"? The nick, if you mean the small groove stamped into the v-belt pulley, is for matching up the intermediate shaft gear and has nothing to do with any TDC position. Some models do have an arrow on the belt cover which this groove lines up with to indicate TDC, but not your engine and the groove is in a different location.

One tooth at the camshaft gear is just over 8° and one tooth at the crankshaft gear is I believe a little over 16°. So being off on either for any reason can throw things out of wack enough to not run or even start. But I think the problem is related but not exactly being a tooth off. You said your camshaft gear has a line/groove on the cylinder head side and a dot on the fender side. This sounds like a camshaft gear which was installed backwards. That would throw the camshaft timing way out of kilter, cause some popping when trying to start and serious bad compression, all of which you have.

The picture below, stolen from somewhere/someone, shows an 8v camshaft at about the TDC compression stroke position. I say about because there is nothing to check against in the picture to see how close it really is. But when viewed from either side, belt or transmission, the two lobes should be pointing to about the 10 and 2 clock positions. It is often said the form "rabbit ears" but they don't stick up in tha air as high as you would picture a rabbit's ears doing.


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## superl8 (Dec 31, 2002)

pop the cam cover off if you want to confirm. And there will be a dot on the back side of the cam gear - I'm positive.

Never seen an 8v gear without one. This was in my closet so I snapped a pic. It is oriented as it would be @ TDC Both cam lobes pointing up. See the dot????? It's subtle to be sure - but always there. Align it with the head to cam cover gasket surface.:beer: BTW 260 deg of raging TT duration :laugh:










Can I suggest something? The manual is great but you need to fully understand what these pieces are all about.

In order to start it must have the correct relationship between cam, crank and dizzy. 
check these 3 and it will start.

Check the cam as I indicated.

Check the dizzy as I indicated - rotor pointing to #1 lead

Check the piston location - I put a wooden pencil in the spark-plug hole, ereaser end in, once you suspect you've got it very close to tdc. gently turn the motor with a wrench on the crank. back and forth ever so gently. you should be able to establish very accurately where TDC is. 

Note the flywheel. You can further deduce what the flywheel markings are now. TDC and Before TDC - both have marks - not to be confused. Add paint to the marks to help distinguish. TDC is where everything needs to be set for the mechanical relationship between cam and crank. BTDC (8deg???) is where the ignition timing gets set. The spark needs to lead the mechanical timing events in order for the explosion to deliver its power at the correct instance in the cycle. as the motor turns faster (RPM) the spark has to happen sooner - the mixture only burns at one rate but a more usable and extended power-band can be achieved by manipulate the ignition timing.

blah blah blah. I apologize for the rant if you knew most of this but if you didn't I hope it'll help solve your problems.


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the help guys it is greatly appreciated. I will post up some pictures later, the owner is supposed to snap some per my instruction. I have answered and commented bold in your quotes :beer:



WaterWheels said:


> Not that this will probibly matter, but what was the compression readings? *"45-60-60-75*roughly"
> 
> That is low, really low, and uneven also. But it speaks volumes about what might be the problem here. _*indeed*_
> 
> ...





superl8 said:


> pop the cam cover off if you want to confirm. And there will be a dot on the back side of the cam gear - I'm positive. *THERE IS NO DOT ON THE MOTOR SIDE OF THE CAM GEAR! There is one on the fender side, but with the offset correct to the tensioner*
> 
> Never seen an 8v gear without one. This was in my closet so I snapped a pic. It is oriented as it would be @ TDC Both cam lobes pointing up. See the dot????? It's subtle to be sure - but always there. Align it with the head to cam cover gasket surface.:beer: BTW 260 deg of raging TT duration :laugh:
> 
> ...


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*cam gear marks*

took some quick pics of the marks on the cam gear...

the dot is facing the fender(opposite the valve cover)









the hash mark is opposite the fender(towards the valve cover)









if i where to guess id say this is not the correct cam gear for this engine...:banghead:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

This sounds like a camshaft gear which was installed backwards. That would throw the camshaft timing way out of kilter, cause some popping when trying to start and serious bad compression, all of which you have.*agreed and I truly believe it is in relation to the mechanical timing of the cam, but the gear cannot be on backward due to the offset of the gear itself. However, a different 8v cam gear could have been tossed on in the past 25 years of life*

The pictures you posted indicate to me what I believe the problem to be, on backwards. There is a very important photo you could have made but didn't which would prove this one way or the other (and I'll eat crow if wrong). Pop the valve cover, position the inner mark where it should be when setting up the engine (cylinder head gasket ledge) and snap a picture with the mark and the cam lobes clearly in focus.

In you pictures the rusty side is facing the engine, most times it is facing away. Also you can see some oil on the outward facing side of the gear which most times happens towards the engine. The marks, the dot is outward and the line is inward which is backwards. Although I have seen gears made the reverse way, most times the logo and part number are facing away from the engine and in the pictures they seem to be facing inwards. When installed correctly the gear is very close to the cylinder head sometime the valve cover is hard to lift off as the lip is under the gear. You can see this in the picture I posted, your picture seems to have a larger gap. Plus the problem you are having which all seems to ad up to placing the gear on wrong.

I don't know what you mean by it being not being possible due to the off-set as I have done it my self more than one time and others have also. The hole is not tapered so it can be installed wrong. I hpe you can prove me wrong as I get no joy from finding and pointing out mistakes. I just try to help fix problems or direct people to possible problem areas if possible.


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> This sounds like a camshaft gear which was installed backwards. That would throw the camshaft timing way out of kilter, cause some popping when trying to start and serious bad compression, all of which you have.*agreed and I truly believe it is in relation to the mechanical timing of the cam, but the gear cannot be on backward due to the offset of the gear itself. However, a different 8v cam gear could have been tossed on in the past 25 years of life*
> 
> The pictures you posted indicate to me what I believe the problem to be, on backwards. There is a very important photo you could have made but didn't which would prove this one way or the other (and I'll eat crow if wrong). Pop the valve cover, position the inner mark where it should be when setting up the engine (cylinder head gasket ledge) and snap a picture with the mark and the cam lobes clearly in focus.
> 
> ...


Again, thanks for the feedback, but I am 95% positive this gear is not installed backward, look at the orientation of the dot in relation to the raised/lowered portion of the teeth and position in relation to the "spokes", they are definitely not the same.

The offset of the cam gear fits the gear closer to the head as you say, if it were installed the other way, it would push the gear outward toward the fender and not line up with the tensioner, causing uneven wear leading to premature belt failure.

I spoke with the owner late last night and he will try to pull the cam cover this morning and snap a pic of the lobes. I didn't even think to ask him to jot down the part number so we could cross reference the gear.

I really think we are on to something here and have high hopes on the pulley simply being wrong, but just needing to be spun for the proper lobe orientation :thumbup:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Sr. Karmann said:


> . . . look at the orientation of the dot in relation to the raised/lowered portion of the teeth and position in relation to the "spokes", they are definitely not the same. . . .The offset of the cam gear fits the gear closer to the head as you say, if it were installed the other way, it would push the gear outward toward the fender


The position to the cylinder head from the picture is hard to judge and was only an observation as to how it "looked". I'm going to have to say you got me as far as the dot is concerned. Didn't notice it was at the land and not at the grove, made wrong is possible but whatever the reason I'll have to choke on that part.



Sr. Karmann said:


> . . . he will try to pull the cam cover this morning and snap a pic of the lobes. I didn't even think to ask him to jot down the part number so we could cross reference the gear. . . have high hopes on the pulley simply being wrong, but just needing to be spun for the proper lobe orientation :thumbup: thumbdown


Yes, a part number would clear a lot up at this point and maybe you could contact him again to get it. If it is the wrong part, and it is looking more and more that way, just moving the cam to the correct position might not work. You will have to count the teeth and measure the diameter first to be sure it is the exact same size. I don't know what a 5 cylinder gear looks like but if that is what it is then no matter what you do it will never run right, if at all. Lets say it is the wrong gear, I suggest buying or finding the correct one before trying any "odd ball" fixes. But yea, part number :thumbup:


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

ok so i took the valve cover off and aligned both marks...the dot on the out side of the pully was clearly not "rabbit ears" however heres what it the cam position looke like when i aligned the hash mark on the back of the pulley...


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

*cam gear...*

heres the P/N # for the cam gear in question

049109111B


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## superl8 (Dec 31, 2002)

concerning the way you've got the cam in the pictures - what you've done there is fine.:thumbup:

However. Looks to me like the gear is on backwards. The writing stamped on the spokes should go out methinks. The cam I took a picture of cam off a running car - timed exactly as I described... and its installed the reverse of yours.

BTW. Be careful not to over-tighten the belt. It'll bitch the bearings on the intermediate shaft. It should twist 90deg @ mid-span - not using superhuman strength. I


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

toastystuff said:


> heres the P/N # for the cam gear in question
> 049109111B


I did a little search to find out about this cam gear. Yes I also got the number via IM, thanks. Turns out it is what you might call a "one off" part. It was listed as only used in the USA and was only installed in Golf models for about a year (85 - 86). I have discovered chatter however about it also in Audi and Seat sites and in the UK so maybe ETKA is not correct. It seems that it was made backwards to the more common part, dot in rear and line in front. They seem to be made the same, location of the marks and their effects on engine timing, just that the type of marks were reversed  In any case the replacement gear and the gear installed from that time period on is PN 049 109 111 C

If this were my car I would either locate the newer gear and use that or get a cool looking aluminum one with adjustment if you ever need it. But seeing as the engine looks so far to be set up correctly, we're back to just why your compression is so low? Two other requests that will help rule out engine setup as the problem. A picture of the ignition distributor, cap and shield removed, showing the rotor position and one of the flywheel through the timing hole showing the markings and pointer (if possible). Both taken with the camshaft set just as it sits in the pictures above. Or an least your honest word as to their positions. Don't want to sound like I don't believe you, it is just that pictures often show more than what they were intended to show.


Sent from my home computer using the keyboard


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> I did a little search to find out about this cam gear. Yes I also got the number via IM, thanks. Turns out it is what you might call a "one off" part. It was listed as only used in the USA and was only installed in Golf models for about a year (85 - 86). I have discovered chatter however about it also in Audi and Seat sites and in the UK so maybe ETKA is not correct. It seems that it was made backwards to the more common part, dot in rear and line in front. They seem to be made the same, location of the marks and their effects on engine timing, just that the type of marks were reversed  In any case the replacement gear and the gear installed from that time period on is PN 049 109 111 C
> 
> If this were my car I would either locate the newer gear and use that or get a cool looking aluminum one with adjustment if you ever need it. But seeing as the engine looks so far to be set up correctly, we're back to just why your compression is so low? Two other requests that will help rule out engine setup as the problem. A picture of the ignition distributor, cap and shield removed, showing the rotor position and one of the flywheel through the timing hole showing the markings and pointer (if possible). Both taken with the camshaft set just as it sits in the pictures above. Or an least your honest word as to their positions. Don't want to sound like I don't believe you, it is just that pictures often show more than what they were intended to show.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info on the PN :thumbup:

At this point, dumping more $ on an engine that was running with this cam gear would be out of the question IMHO. Not saying that the motor is junk, but I'm having mixed emotions. When we (PO & I) pulled the head originally, there was no indication of the motor being damaged, everything looked spot on for a 25yo motor, any indication and the head would not have gone back on.

I can't recall at which cam mark we did the compression check, the owner is supposed to let me know where it is timed now. We did the compression test, then after all else failed close to the end of the day, I timed it to the other mark and did not do a compression check there, hoping it is timed at the hash mark now. Owner is supposed to call this morning for another photo session including all the timing marks lined up. Really I could time an 8v with my eyes closed and don't understand why this one is giving so much trouble. :banghead:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Sr. Karmann said:


> . . . an engine that was running with this cam gear . . . When we (PO & I) pulled the head originally, there was no indication of the motor being damaged, everything looked spot on for a 25yo motor . . .


The thought to get and use the newer gear was just so it conforms to current, for the time, engines and avoid any issues at a later date. The gear you have is fine as long as you understand and remember it was made in reverse, markings anyway, from newer ones. 

The low compression could have been caused by having it set wrong when the test was done and to be sure I would do a second one with the engine set up correctly. Right now it seems that engine set up is not the issue. Once the crankshaft and ignition rotor positions are confirmed it should be a dead subject, but just what is wrong still has to be determined. So having a correct compression test will at least dismiss cylinder sealing as a possible problem. CIS is easy enough to determine of fuel is reaching the cylinders, have you done any tests in that area yet? Correct pressure requires a gauge but just basic fuel reaching the chambers is no real task. Is this a knock sensor or vacuum/mechanical ignition? Have you tested each plug for spark? Mechanical or hydraulic followers?

Am I wrong in saying the car is not by you to look at or work on daily? If that is true then things will be slow, but if it ran before it should run again.


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> CIS is easy enough to determine of fuel is reaching the cylinders, have you done any tests in that area yet? Correct pressure requires a gauge but just basic fuel reaching the chambers is no real task. Is this a knock sensor or vacuum/mechanical ignition? Have you tested each plug for spark? Mechanical or hydraulic followers?
> 
> Am I wrong in saying the car is not by you to look at or work on daily? If that is true then things will be slow, but if it ran before it should run again.


Haven't tested for fuel. I believe it is vacuum ignition. Each plug tested well. I am unsure whether the lifters are solid or hydraulic. I am not close to the car, unfortunately and is quite a distance away.

We went at it again and still a no go. I took a ton of pics and there is a video of the compression test on cly #1, please let me know what you think.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

OK, looked at the pictures and watched the video. It is a mechanical/Vacuum ignition distributor, just so you know, and seems to be positioned fine. All the marks do seem to be lined up correctly. The cylinder head is a mechanical follower type. The video disturbs me though as the cylinder not only does not build much pressure at all on the first compression stroke, but does not hold pressure either. The first compression stroke on a healthy engine should kick up to about 3/4 or more of the total pressure it will build. Yours hits 30psi each stroke and does not stay but rather falls (bad gauge?). A side from something having been done wrong during the head gasket work, can't say what but anything that would cause the cylinders not to seal, all I can think of is the valve clearance. Was the camshaft removed? Are there any secrets not mentioned yet, camshaft change or unsure history of the engine? Have you at least checked the valve clearance cold to be sure the valves are not being held open?


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> OK, looked at the pictures and watched the video. It is a mechanical/Vacuum ignition distributor, just so you know, and seems to be positioned fine. All the marks do seem to be lined up correctly. The cylinder head is a mechanical follower type. The video disturbs me though as the cylinder not only does not build much pressure at all on the first compression stroke, but does not hold pressure either. The first compression stroke on a healthy engine should kick up to about 3/4 or more of the total pressure it will build. Yours hits 30psi each stroke and does not stay but rather falls (bad gauge?). A side from something having been done wrong during the head gasket work, can't say what but anything that would cause the cylinders not to seal, all I can think of is the valve clearance. Was the camshaft removed? Are there any secrets not mentioned yet, camshaft change or unsure history of the engine? Have you at least checked the valve clearance cold to be sure the valves are not being held open?


I believe it to be a faulty gauge, a friend tried it on his R32T and could not get it to hold pressure. Thanks for the info on ignition and lifters :thumbup:

The camshaft was not removed for the head gasket. No secrets that I know of, I was with the PO when he bought the car, he wanted my opinion before the purchase. It was a solid running car, drove it back about 2 hours from where he bought it. It needed a few maintenance items, mostly fluid change and some new hoses, that was it. I have not checked valve clearance, which is actually what I was thinking of next, that the valves were possibly being held (stuck) open. I will refer to the Bentley on the test procedure.

Does the motor look like it is turning over fast enough with the current starter to fire over? Seems very slow to me.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

If it was running OK before and the cam had not been touched there really is no reason to check the valve clearance. If it makes you feel better knowing it is correct or requires a little adjusting then fine do it as it only takes a few minutes. Gauge being bad could explain the drop in pressure between compression strokes but not the low initial pressure (first jump). I guess this will have to wait until a known good gauge is used for another test.

Hard to really tell if the engine is turning "fast enough". I have had motors fire while turning at a very very slow speed, almost not even turning,maybe luck but it has happened. I wanted to time the belt but in the video it does not appear until too late. From the compression spikes of the gauge I would say it is turning slow, but how slow I can't say. I did hear some things that I could not nail down. One was a kind of tick sound which seemed to be in beat with the cranking. The other was some kind of background sound that seemed to be constant during the cranking. Any idea as to what they are or maybe just noise in the garage?


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> If it was running OK before and the cam had not been touched there really is no reason to check the valve clearance. If it makes you feel better knowing it is correct or requires a little adjusting then fine do it as it only takes a few minutes. Gauge being bad could explain the drop in pressure between compression strokes but not the low initial pressure (first jump). I guess this will have to wait until a known good gauge is used for another test.
> 
> Hard to really tell if the engine is turning "fast enough". I have had motors fire while turning at a very very slow speed, almost not even turning,maybe luck but it has happened. I wanted to time the belt but in the video it does not appear until too late. From the compression spikes of the gauge I would say it is turning slow, but how slow I can't say. I did hear some things that I could not nail down. One was a kind of tick sound which seemed to be in beat with the cranking. The other was some kind of background sound that seemed to be constant during the cranking. Any idea as to what they are or maybe just noise in the garage?


We even went and rented another gauge, it did the same thing! I used this gauge successfully on my boat and used it for a motorcycle when it started "not holding pressure", has done the same since. Unsure of the noises, I think it's just old motor sounds


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## VWDugan (Mar 22, 2001)

that car will NOT start with compression numbers that low. i know you said you rented another gauge and it did the same thing...i would suggest renting maybe a more expensive quality gauge and try again. it should pump up and HOLD the pressure in each cylinder. 
if you try another gauge and it still does not read good compression i would suggest that this is your issue. according to my bentley...for engine codes HT, RD, PL, 9A, RV and PF....the wear limit on compression is 109psi....and for a new engine it should be between 145-189psi. i know personally mine tested at 210psi across the board with my Mac compression gauge. 
so i believe this is your problem..
but it could be a number of different things causing it. could be bad rings, valve stuck open, etc...
post new results with a better compression gauge


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## superl8 (Dec 31, 2002)

Guess what can make your compression fuct? I'd bet your cam is timed wrong. i can't imagine what else.

You're probably close however. try either way a tooth.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

I think this has been covered but I have to ask to be sure, has the camshaft been changed during this head gasket replacement? I ask because if someone swapped in a hydraulic cam on the mechanical head the base circle will be to large and hold the valve off the seat. So are you sure about the camshaft?

The gauge dropping after each pulse I'm sure is just the release valve of the gauge stuck open. That tiny button on the side just below the gauge itself. That two do the same thing would be strange but OK. The real issue is not that the pressure drops between the pulses but rather the initial pulse, way to low. So this is the very first area you need to work on and find out why. Do all the cylinders read this way? Do you have access to compressed air to shoot into the cylinder and listen for it escaping somewhere?


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## Sr. Karmann (Feb 5, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> I think this has been covered but I have to ask to be sure, has the camshaft been changed during this head gasket replacement? I ask because if someone swapped in a hydraulic cam on the mechanical head the base circle will be to large and hold the valve off the seat. So are you sure about the camshaft?
> 
> The gauge dropping after each pulse I'm sure is just the release valve of the gauge stuck open. That tiny button on the side just below the gauge itself. That two do the same thing would be strange but OK. The real issue is not that the pressure drops between the pulses but rather the initial pulse, way to low. So this is the very first area you need to work on and find out why. Do all the cylinders read this way? Do you have access to compressed air to shoot into the cylinder and listen for it escaping somewhere?


Cam was not messed with and we do not have a fitting to shoot compressed air in. We have taken a break from this one and doing an engine swap in his Corrado next. I think we will pull the head to see if there may be something amiss


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## Seacucumber (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm having the same problems with my GTI. It's an '84 Rabbit with an '87 GTI engine. Before I started it ran, not well, but it ran. I swapped in a VW remanufactured head (same part number), new gaskets, timing belt, etc. I didn't pay much attention to the timing marks before I started. I'm getting the exact same symptoms as the op. It won't fire up. Here are my findings:

I used the pencil trick to check when pistion one (closest to timing belt) was at tdc. I also confirmed through the timing hole that the flyweel was in the correct orientiation. When piston one is set to tdc the groove on my crank shaft pulley is completely in the wrong spot to line up with the intermediate shaft sprocket.

At this point I adjusted the timing belt so all marks are properly lined up. In this position all the pistons are at about the same level (none at tdc).

I pulled off my cam cover and with all my timing marks lined up the cam is set so the lobes are in the bunny ears position on pistion one.

So to sum it up when my timing marks are all lined up the crank isn't at tdc and the lobes are in the bunny ear position (piston 1). I don't have a MK2 Bently, just MK1. Is there a different procedure for timing a MK2 engine?


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## Seacucumber (Jan 17, 2009)

Ok, I didn't look closely enough at the Bentley and I was lining up the notch on the crank shaft pulley when the dot was on the lower side of the intermediat shaft sprocket. Supposed to line it up when the dot is around the other side. No harm done. I always check that everything goes around a revolution before I start it. So I got the timing set correctly. Dot on cam sprocket is lined up with the top of the head and all marks line up when piston one is at TDC. Distributor is pointing at wire for number one. I tried to start it but I'm getting the chug chug like the original post. It's like the starter isn't strong enough or something. It started fine before I began this. This head has hydraulic lifters. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.


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## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

I noticed when comparing starters - that the rated power of the starter increases from 0.8 -0.9 kw to 1.1 kw from a 8.5:1 8v CIS engine to the 10:1 mk2 or mk3. Fortunately not an expensive fix. I'm upgrading to the 10:1 mk2 engine.

My tips: ignore the intermediate shaft mark - it just drives the distributor. The #1 cam lobes are obviously at TDC, the #1 piston is at TDC, the distributor rotor is at the mark in the circumference, done.

My Scirocco has not started due to:
1. bad ignition switch providing poor 12 volt power to the 15 power circuit. I was driving around with 2 toggle switches for a while. 
DO - jump the terminals at the ignition switch, then operate the starter otherwise.

2. Idle screw WAY off, or clogged up. The car just will not run unless throttle is opened.

3. No fuel from main injectors, but possibly from the cold start valve - not sure of its opening pressure. I learned that plenty of fuel can shoot out of the fuel filter banjo bolt when stop cranking, but that doesn't mean enough pressure exists to open the injectors. 
DO: jump the fuel pump relay, and listen for a smooth fuel flow, then lift the air flap and should hear gas squirting into the cylinders. Pull the plugs to verify gas indeed in the piston dish.

4. vacuum leak, possible underneath - a torn boot.

My last no start - damaged Hall sender wires so no spark. [edit] Damaged while replacing both intake and exhaust manifolds, and cleaning up the aged coil connections. That was a puzzler.


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## Seacucumber (Jan 17, 2009)

Got mine running. Timing was a little too advanced. It's running like a finely tuned sewing machine now.  Now that it's running I'll get out the timing light tomorrow. Toastystuff, I don't know if you tried this but loosen the hold down bolt and turn your distributor clockwise a bit then lock it down. Try to start it. If it doesn't go then turn the distributor a little more. I had the same symptoms as you. Seemed like my starter had no power. That's because your spark is too soon and firing way before your piston reaches tic causing reverse force against your starter. I'm no expert. I got this info from google.


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## PoorMansDub (Nov 28, 2010)

To whoevers car is still not running due to timing. Plain and simple, start from scratch... 
1. Line up cam (i DO use the dot, line it up with the top of the cylinder head on the frontside stud) 
2. Line up the crank to top dead center (use the flywheel mark 0 degrees) 
3. Line up the spark dizzy (remove cap, rotor pointing at line) 
4. Make sure wires are hooked in proper firing order. 
5. Install belt without moving anything (at this point your crank and i-shaft sprokets should also line up) 
6. Start the car. 

If it doesnt start you have fuel issues. Even removing the line and seeing fuel come out of the filter means nothing, you must pressure test it.


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## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

Other possibilities - the idle screw could have fallen out during parts replacing. 

A fuel system repair - leading to a dry pump or lines - I have noticed leads to having to crank and crank and crank. If jumper the fuel pump relay and let the pumps push the air through the system back to the tank, then start it, it starts right up.


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## toastystuff (Jan 17, 2007)

need to put this to rest,the block was toast,cylinder bore was massively scratched and fakked beyond all reason,low compression = car wont start! how this wasent caught at the time of headgasket swap is beyond me but then again i didint do it


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## AnAgentOrange (Jul 14, 2011)

Wow, that sucks. At least there's a fix for it. 









It's called ABA :laugh:


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