# Check Engine Light = Code P2187: What's the cost to fix



## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

Definition: System too lean at idle bank 1
Explanation: Failed MAF
Probable Cause: Low fuel pressure, Vacuum leak on engine, or Failed H02S (Heated Oxygen Sensor)


Check engine light came on last Friday. Took it to AutoZone and the gave me they info above and stated that 9 times out of 10 it's a failed H02S heated oxygen sensor. I called Vdub to make an appointment and of course they want to charge me $100 to do their diagnostic test to tell me what I already know.

My question is does anyone know what the typical cost of this repair is? I just had the intake manifold decarb done about 8K ago luckily under extended warranty. I'd like to gauge this as I do have a $300 deductible for any repairs made using my extended warranty.


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## vwauditek25 (Aug 6, 2004)

Sounds like your main seal or crankcase breather is going. Lean fault is never an O2 sendor


Volkswagen of Crystal Lake
VW Master technician 
Authorized Unitronic dealer 
13 CC and 15 Jetta Sport


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## cj8 (Feb 11, 2014)

Are you seeing misfires or loss of power? I'm trying to remember what other symptoms I had. Trouble starting, squealing, etc. It ended up being the PCV/breather/oil separator. Call around to local shops. I got it done for 170 which was just over half what vw wanted to charge.


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## vwauditek25 (Aug 6, 2004)

cj8 said:


> Are you seeing misfires or loss of power? I'm trying to remember what other symptoms I had. Trouble starting, squealing, etc. It ended up being the PCV/breather/oil separator. Call around to local shops. I got it done for 170 which was just over half what vw wanted to charge.


That's installed without a VW part 


Volkswagen of Crystal Lake
VW Master technician 
Authorized Unitronic dealer 
13 CC and 15 Jetta Sport


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

vwauditek25 said:


> Sounds like your main seal or crankcase breather is going. Lean fault is never an O2 sendor


@#$%... now I'm concerned. Seems like I"m dropping 300-400 on this car in maintenance every 5 to 6 months and I haven't even hit 70K yet.




cj8 said:


> Are you seeing misfires or loss of power? I'm trying to remember what other symptoms I had. Trouble starting, squealing, etc.


No misfires or loss of power. A little sluggish at first when I step on the accelerator from time to time but other than that nothing.


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## CC'ed (Dec 1, 2009)

New PCV unit = $137, plus 30 minutes of your time to remove and replace it : 10 or so torx head screws.


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

CC'ed said:


> New PCV unit = $137, plus 30 minutes of your time to remove and replace it : 10 or so torx head screws.


I'm game... anyone in the Jacksonville area with tools wanna party this weekend? I think it's time I start get'n dirty.


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## oviedocc (Sep 13, 2012)

Mr_Jones said:


> I'm game... anyone in the Jacksonville area with tools wanna party this weekend? I think it's time I start get'n dirty.


I'm in the Orlando area and would love to help unfortunately the wife and kids have me tied up. I had this issue recently and replacing the PCV did the trick. I found mine on ebay for about $90 for the latest revision. The only tools you'll need is T-30 torx bit, ratchet and extension. This video shows how easy it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF3O6ChxBv0&index=7&list=PLtqrNCuhkOk4WbGoLap4H-W6IGnO40En_.


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

oviedocc said:


> I'm in the Orlando area and would love to help unfortunately the wife and kids have me tied up. I had this issue recently and replacing the PCV did the trick. I found mine on ebay for about $90 for the latest revision. The only tools you'll need is T-30 torx bit, ratchet and extension. This video shows how easy it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF3O6ChxBv0&index=7&list=PLtqrNCuhkOk4WbGoLap4H-W6IGnO40En_.


Thanks for the info. Ill check ebay today and pray it holds up until the part gets here. 

What symptoms did you experience? Right now the only indication i have that something is wrong is the constant check engine light.


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## oviedocc (Sep 13, 2012)

Mr_Jones said:


> Thanks for the info. Ill check ebay today and pray it holds up until the part gets here.
> 
> What symptoms did you experience? Right now the only indication i have that something is wrong is the constant check engine light.


That's how mine started but after a few days the idle got erratic going from almost stalling to about 2k rpm. Got a misfire code as well. This is where I got mine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/131409420211?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Do a proper scan first!*

Before you start replacing parts, I strongly recommend that you do a proper scan with VCDS: this is essentially the same as the dealer's diagnostic software, runs on your windows laptop and gives you the specific VW codes and explanations, as well as the capability to erase codes and do adaptation from the basic of eliminating the seat belt warning chime to more sophisticated ones: this is very different from the generic tools of auto parts stores. This way you will really be able to understand what is going on, and what part(s) need to be replaced. It's available from Ross-Tech http://www.ross-tech.com/ for less than $250 for the basic version, and will pay for itself in one or two dealer visits, since you will save the $100 scan fee as well as being much more prepared and respected by giving the service manager the specific code scan, not to mention the amount of time it saves you instead of replacing . It supports all VW and Audi products and, if you leave the marque, you can sell it to others on this forum. Please note that I do not work for Ross-Tech nor have any financial interest in the company, but with 11 years' VW experience I would not even dream of owning a VW or Audi without it.

Alternatively if you don't want to buy it, try to find someone in your area who owns it and can do a scan of your codes: I'm sure there are many forum members out there who will do this for you (I do it often in my area but I live in Boston and Pittsburgh). However, you may have to find them in other model forums, such as the one for the VII generation Golf R or the one for the Phaeton: I'm always surprised at how few CC forum members use it, given how keen they are to do mods.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Meaning of check engine light*

Keep in mind that there are several hundred triggers of the check engine light, the vast majority of which are federally mandated for environmental protection reasons (such as not properly tightening the gas cap) and have nothing to do with mechanical performance. If you are not experiencing any drivability issues, especially given the relatively low mileage, you should not automatically assume that an expensive part is about to fail, especially at a relatively low mileage. 

The proper diagnostic procedure for any modern car is to scan and save the DTRs (Digital Trouble codes), erase them, and do at least one driving cycle, and scan again. Any codes that come up again need to be reviewed, including their frequency (intermittent or permanent, what time, speed, engine revolutions, fluids and atmospheric temperatures, etc.) to understand what is going on and what repairs to make. The VCDS software I mentioned in my previous post gives you this capability. This sounds more complicated than it really is, but s preferable, in my view, than shooting in the dark.


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## kbad (May 26, 2007)

Hey Mr. J .. If it is the pcv - it's most probably just the diaphragm - you can replace it with a doorman for ~$20 at local auto store and you're done in about 15 min! ... Rear main seal is a whole different ball of wax, but it is associated to the pcv system. .. You may need to have you intake ports "properly cleaned" and have your intake manifold/injectors inspected/replaced - VW extended the warranty on them - did they show you when it was cleaned? I doubt if they actually scraped the baked on gunk (or even media blasted it), which is the only effective cleaning for carbon buildup.. Good luck!


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

Motorista said:


> Do a proper scan first!





Motorista said:


> Meaning of check engine light


Very good stuff motorista. I've considered this scenario as well, and thanks for bringing it to my attention again before i made a decision based on emotion (fed up of being in the dealership every 7K-8K miles over the past two years having things done outside of routine maintenance). I do not own the VCDS software that you mention and will try and locate someone in the area who may have it as I agree this would be the correct way to proceed. I do think it would be worth getting but at this time i can not. I think I'm at a crossroads... trying to determine (with the repairs made so far over the past few years) whether I'll be keeping this vehicle or not. It's been a love / hate relationship thus far... one in which I've considered making the investent in tools and software so that I could do more of the repairs on my own rather than continue to throw money at the dealership. My extended warranty will be up at 75K and I'm almost there.



kbad said:


> Hey Mr. J .. If it is the pcv - it's most probably just the diaphragm - you can replace it with a doorman for ~$20 at local auto store and you're done in about 15 min! ... Rear main seal is a whole different ball of wax, but it is associated to the pcv system. .. You may need to have you intake ports "properly cleaned" and have your intake manifold/injectors inspected/replaced - VW extended the warranty on them - did they show you when it was cleaned? I doubt if they actually scraped the baked on gunk (or even media blasted it), which is the only effective cleaning for carbon buildup.. Good luck!


kbad, I just had the intake manifold decard done (under VW extended warranty in Nov at around 59K). I didn't check that it was clean for myself. I just dropped car off at the dealership for the day before going to work and picked it up when I got off. I thought at first that this latest code was something related to the manifold issue that i had previously (emissions... MAF... ect...) but I don't know enough about this system to pinpoint what's happening. I have to depend on the dealership right now, not good I know but I'm trying to change that by learning more about the car and how it operates and the guys here really give good advice.


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

*Still no real symptoms other than constant check engine light...*

It's been a week to the day since the check engine light initially appeared and still the car idles normally and shows no ill effects while driving. 

Still, I'm very worried as this vehicle has exhibited characteristics in the past that it will leave me stranded pretty abruptly after the first sign of trouble. I'm at a point where I'm thinking of taking it to VW, paying the 100 bucks to have them run a diagnostic check to tell me what's really happening. My fear is having it come back being a 300-400 dollar repair that I know I can not get done right now so I'd be at the same point... minus a 100 bucks. Now if it's really is the PVC unit then I could swing doing the job myself but would just have to wait on the part to ship after ordering, guessing a few days or so before I could make the repair myself.

If there is anyone in the Jax area that reads this thread and has access to the VCDS software please ping me as I'm free this weekend and would like to have a proper diagnostic check done so I'll know how to proceed. Other than that, I'd just have to pray nothing major happens and that I can make it to next pay day.


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## kbad (May 26, 2007)

hey .. short of findind/getting vag-com, if your warranty is up soon, then go in and pay for a diag, they can apply the $100 to whatever it is they end up fixing - they just dont want you to wander off somewhere else after they did all the work to tell you what the computer tells them!?!? .. dont trust them, and only take the dealership at their word if they are paying for it, otherwise they really dont know any much more than what is out there for them to know and theyll turn you into their money making pit for the month! .. given that, these engines have issues from the start and good maintenance is key to longevity .. some parts may need to be updated (because original stock had shortcommings) and some parts may be worn out by now - you need to know all that has been done and when and that some specific major items need maintenance at the higher mileage/age youre at now .. that said, for s&g have you checked your gas cap?? .. and, have your cleaned your maf lately? .. good luck!


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Some insights about your DTC*

Check the Ross-Tech wiki about your DTC at http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18619/P2187/008583, I think you'll find it helpful, especially the following passage:

"_* Special Notes

When found in the NAR 2.0T (BPY) check RVUTB: 01-09-03 or 2018919 for updated Crankcase Breather Valve
If the breather valve is faulty, full engine vacuum is typically found when removing the oil cap at idle. "
*_
Looks like replacing it might be worth a try. 
Step by step video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYIzpX3ptjQ.

One possible source via Amazon @$41: http://www.amazon.com/Volkswagen-Crankcase-Breather-Premium-Quality/dp/B00HK2A16O, but you should contact the seller with your vin. Another possible source for OEM VW parts: http://www.oemplus.com/. 

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## CC'ed (Dec 1, 2009)

To verify if you have a ruptured diaphragm in the PCV unit : clear the DTC code and do this :

Try this temporary diagnostic : Disconnect the black ribbed "front" PCV hose (with the foam insulation sleeve) from the intake manifold nipple, put a piece of plastic wrap over the nipple, and push the hose back on. (this blocks the PCV into the intake). Start the engine and drive. If the DTC code does not come back, replace your PCV unit. Remove the temporary plastic wrap seal.

That's one way to check it, but there's an even easier one: if the diaphragm is ruptured, you will detect a vacuum leak at the pressure equalization port on the side of the diaphragm cover.


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

*Finally got it diagnosed...*



kbad said:


> given that, these engines have issues from the start and good maintenance is key to longevity .. some parts may need to be updated (because original stock had shortcommings) and some parts may be worn out by now - you need to know all that has been done and when and that some specific major items need maintenance at the higher mileage/age youre at now .. that said, for s&g have you checked your gas cap?? .. and, have your cleaned your maf lately? .. good luck!


I'm usually meticulous about my vehicle maintenance. Schedule has been kept since I've had it. Gas cap is typically the first thing I check whenever I get a check engine light. Also, I had the intake manifold decarb done about 10K miles ago.



Motorista said:


> Check the Ross-Tech wiki about your DTC at http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18619/P2187/008583, I think you'll find it helpful, especially the following passage:
> 
> "_* Special Notes
> 
> ...


Seems that you were right on point here motorista. I wish I had the tools and space or knew someone local that could help out. Seems I'd save myself an @$$load of money. Thanks again for the suggestions & resources.


So, after a little over a month and some back and forward with my local dealership I was able to secure a free diagnostic reading. The car still idles fine and still seems to drive properly with the exception of being sluggish at times when I step on it. I dropped it off this morning at a local VW and my service guy just called to relay his findings, one of which surprised me since I just had the fuel pump replaced last year.


System running too lean at idle: Tech stated that I need a crank case breather valve as this is what's causing the car to run lean. Quoted me $354 parts & labor

Misfire Codes / Check fuel pressure: Tech stated that my fuel pressure is low. Quoted me $513 to replace the fuel pump.


So, I just hit 70,500 miles over the weekend. I went back through my service records and found that I did have the fuel pump replaced last May. Of course, now I'm a month outside of that 12 month warranty on the new part. After my discussing with the tech this morning it seems like I'll be dropping another $867 on not so routine maintenance. I can't even be mad anymore... sad to say, I've come to expect it this whenever I go in to visit my VW service team.


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## kbad (May 26, 2007)

Mr_Jones said:


> I'm usually meticulous about my vehicle maintenance. Schedule has been kept since I've had it ...... had the intake manifold decarb done about 10K miles ago ...
> 
> 
> System running too lean at idle: Tech stated that I need a crank case breather valve as this is what's causing the car to run lean. Quoted me $354 parts & labor
> ...


hey Mr J ... yeah, we all pretty much take care of our vehicles, eh, but they do have unforseen/expected shortcommings that the manufacturers dont want to fess up to and never will ... it s pretty much one problem leading to the other ... the vw intake manifold decarb service is useless and should be explained in detail by the service center - they DO NOT remove/scrape the caked on carbon buildup down to the metal , its a chemical wash that only removes the soft top layer and their ONLY goal is to clean the top of the valves in order to reduce 'cold start' symptoms!!! ... 'crank case breather' - do they mean pcv plate? if so, it should not be a $354 job - a new plate is about 100 or so and r&r is 30 min ... mind you, it may just be the diaphragm and thats a 20 part and 15 min to swap out ... at 70k have them check your rear main seal as well .. good luck!


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks again for that advice kBad. it's really a matter of hopefully getting a house in the next few months with a garage and space to start doing some of this stuff myself. At least I'll feel more inclined with the space and tools to do some of the work myself. PCV unit replacement looked fairly simple from the youtube vid.

So, I just picked up the car from the dealership. Tech said everything could be done under my extended warranty ($300 deductible for me). He first wants to do the crank case breather valve (not sure if it's the $100 part or the $20 flap but will get more info on that). At first he wanted to do everything until I notified him that I just replaced the fuel pump last year around this time. So now, he wants to replace the crank case breather valve as he states that a bad breather valve could be causing the misfire codes related to my fuel pressure. Why did it take me saying that I replaced the fuel pump last year for him to want to take that "Stepped Approach" to diagnose what's really wrong with the car? Seems that would be the initial way to go rather than quote for everything that it could be. Seems a little backwards but I guess it would prevent those "why is my bill so much higher than what was first quoted" conversations...

In any event... I had nothing done today other than to take advantage of my free diagnostic. I was prepared to handle the charges if it were hondo or less but since it's north of that I've decided to wait until next Thursday (Payday) to get the work done... Maybe!

Maybe because I noticed they cleared my check engine cel. I'm curious at this point to see if it comes back as I've put over 1500 miles on the car within the past month since the cel first appeared. Still drives the same.


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## MrRline (Apr 6, 2010)

Mr_Jones said:


> Thanks again for that advice kBad. it's really a matter of hopefully getting a house in the next few months with a garage and space to start doing some of this stuff myself. At least I'll feel more inclined with the space and tools to do some of the work myself. PCV unit replacement looked fairly simple from the youtube vid.
> 
> So, I just picked up the car from the dealership. Tech said everything could be done under my extended warranty ($300 deductible for me). He first wants to do the crank case breather valve (not sure if it's the $100 part or the $20 flap but will get more info on that). At first he wanted to do everything until I notified him that I just replaced the fuel pump last year around this time. So now, he wants to replace the crank case breather valve as he states that a bad breather valve could be causing the misfire codes related to my fuel pressure. Why did it take me saying that I replaced the fuel pump last year for him to want to take that "Stepped Approach" to diagnose what's really wrong with the car? Seems that would be the initial way to go rather than quote for everything that it could be. Seems a little backwards but I guess it would prevent those "why is my bill so much higher than what was first quoted" conversations...
> 
> ...


I believe he's speaking of the PCV. It's around 130 bucks and it's something so simple a child could replace.


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

*UPDATE - my $1448.17 service visit...*

... well, not really since I only had to pay my deductible.

So I continued to drive the car for another 7,237 miles with the check engine light on due to the causes described above. I decided not to do it myself since it was still under warranty, but I've also been in the process of closing on a home so I've been trying to hold on to any and all money for as long as I can.

That being said, I pulled into the dealership with exactly 56 miles left on my warranty. I cancelled my initial appointment a month ago because I had started the process of purchasing a home and it was a good thing because two days after I cancelled that appointment to get this taken care of, my driver side door could not be opened from the outside:-(. Yes, this would have resulted in another trip to the dealership shortly after the warranty work had been done.

In any event I had the crank case breather valve ($183 dealership cost) and the fuel pump ($336 dealership cost) replaced @ $112/hr labor rate. They also replaced the F-Latch in the driver side door ($178.97 dealership cost).

Now, I'm shopping or another extended warranty because if the next few years of ownership go anything like the first two years the warranty will pay for itself within 6 months it seems. Today I sit at 74,948 on the odometer (45,948 of that being mine) and have done the following outside of routine maintenance:

Replaced wheel @ 47K
Replaced fuel pump at 50K
Replaced battery @ 54K
Intake manifold decarb @ 59K
Replaced driver side headlight @ 60K
Replaced crank case breather valve @ 74.9K
Replaced fuel pump again @ 74.9K
Replaced F Latch in driver side door @ 74.9K​
Next up... it's time for tires again, and looking forward to the 80K DSG service. Anyone have an idea of what that service usually runs?


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## CC'ed (Dec 1, 2009)

$300 to $400 for a DSG fluid and filter change at a VW dealer. Do it yourself for $130.


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## Mr_Jones (Apr 20, 2013)

thanks


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## B rhode (Dec 30, 2020)

Mr_Jones said:


> Definition: System too lean at idle bank 1
> Explanation: Failed MAF
> Probable Cause: Low fuel pressure, Vacuum leak on engine, or Failed H02S (Heated Oxygen Sensor)
> 
> ...


It can be a number of things I have an 2012 vw cc sport same code, ended up being failed injector seal. But I also have a failing rear main seal which I believe is causing the code to come back on. It’s best to take your car to vw with a code like that, you’ll spend more trying to figure it out on your own tbh.


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## khanhamza (Mar 22, 2021)

For error code P2187, one or more of the below repairs may be needed to solve the underlying issue. For each possible repair, the estimated cost of repair includes the cost of the relevant parts and the cost of labor required to make the repair. 

Vacuum leak $100-$200
Clean MAF $100
Replace MAF $300
Fuel Pump $1300-$1700
Fuel pressure regulator $200-$400
Exhaust repair $100-$200 (if welded to repair)
Air fuel sensor or oxygen sensor $200-$300


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## AgentSmith (Apr 24, 2019)

Uhhhh.........the original post of this was like 6 years ago. Pretty sure it's been sorted by now.......


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