# APR vs Forge Twintercooler



## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

I got quite a few hundred dollars to spend so I've been meaning to get an intercooler kit for my stage 2+ setup. From the small amount of reviews I could find, I've narrowed it down to the Forge Twintercooler and the APR FMIC.
The forge has the benefit of being less expensive, can be used with my stock IC or even an S3 IC for maximum performance. On top of that it's got a great fit and finish. The APR(which I am biased towards honestly) it is very large and is made for stage 2+ and beyond and is backed by the quality that is APR.
BUT, I've heard things about the APR causing people to lose some boost due to the large volume of the IC, I've seen the graphs of the gains on APR's site with my exact setup but I wonder how true those really are.
Same goes with forge, I've heard there's considerable turbo lag because of the 2 IC setup.
So, what is the better buy in terms of performance gains, bang for buck, and future upgrades(like stage 3)? I'm ready to buy either one VERY SOON so any information would be appreciated.


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## [email protected] (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*

5, 4, 3, 2, 1.....

PM sent.


_Modified by [email protected] at 2:21 PM 7-17-2009_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_I got quite a few hundred dollars to spend so I've been meaning to get an intercooler kit for my stage 2+ setup. From the small amount of reviews I could find, I've narrowed it down to the Forge Twintercooler and the APR FMIC.
The forge has the benefit of being less expensive, can be used with my stock IC or even an S3 IC for maximum performance. On top of that it's got a great fit and finish. The APR(which I am biased towards honestly) it is very large and is made for stage 2+ and beyond and is backed by the quality that is APR.
BUT, I've heard things about the APR causing people to lose some boost due to the large volume of the IC, I've seen the graphs of the gains on APR's site with my exact setup but I wonder how true those really are.
Same goes with forge, I've heard there's considerable turbo lag because of the 2 IC setup.
So, what is the better buy in terms of performance gains, bang for buck, and future upgrades(like stage 3)? I'm ready to buy either one VERY SOON so any information would be appreciated. 

In terms of volume, the APR is not that much larger than the S3 intercooler. It has fewer charge rows and a much larger cooling fin structure than the S3. The core itself is deeper so overall it is about 20 or so cubic inches larger than the S3. Don't confuse size with efficiency as the APR core is much more efficient than the S3 intercooler.
The Forge intercooler adds significant volume when compared to the APR, S3 or stock intercooler. Core to core, the volume was about 20 cubic inches more than the APR, but when you count in the endtanks and all the additional plumbing, you're looking at a number much closer to 80 cubic inches over the APR intercooler. The core that Forge uses is also a much lower quality tube and fin core whereas all the upgrades for the MKV I've seen (including the Forge knockoff) all use bar and plate. Frankly if you really want to do twin-cooling, look at the VF setup instead since it uses a better core and cast endtanks for better flow.
APR's results aren't a credit to intercooler as it was all performed on a dyno where airflow is limited and cooling is less efficient. On the street, I see zero IAT climb with the APR IC and any lag is completely unnoticeable. 








Dave


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (crew219)*

APR does seem like the way to go so far. The decrease and consistency of air temps is astounding, but another issue is performance numbers. Plus I'm also a sucker for sprayed on logos on ICs,







can a APR reseller do that on the spot?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_APR does seem like the way to go so far. The decrease and consistency of air temps is astounding, but another issue is performance numbers. Plus I'm also a sucker for sprayed on logos on ICs,







can a APR reseller do that on the spot? 

Sure they can spray it !!!
Then all you have to do is remove your whole front piece while on the
road, so everyone can see it.....















Have you ever seen the APR IC ?


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

I had the APR intercooler installed on my Stage 2+ and haven't noticed any additional lag... It's a quality piece! I'm actually in the process of installing a water/meth kit as well to even bring the IAT down even further. My goal is to have arctic air blasting through my intake tract........wish me luck!


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_APR does seem like the way to go so far. The decrease and consistency of air temps is astounding, but another issue is performance numbers. Plus I'm also a sucker for sprayed on logos on ICs,







can a APR reseller do that on the spot? 

If it makes you feel any better, they have cast logos on the endtanks . . . but you pretty much won't be able to see any of the APR IC unless you do an A/C delete. The only thing you can see is the top of the core. Throw some stickers on it if that's your thing.
Dave


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (crew219)*

Yeah I totally forgot that you can't see it because of the way it's designed. I already got my APR tuned badge so it looks like my car will remain a sleeper for now. 
Now to get one for a decent price, $900 is just a little out of my price range for now.


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## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*

Both a good choices. Forge will give you the looks. But I wouldnt buy it for looks. g/l


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*

its not like you HAVE to have it right now. Save up and get the APR one if thats what you really want. You will be happier in the end!


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

Well their little 15% off deal on the intercooler ends the 31st though, that's the only thing.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_Well their little 15% off deal on the intercooler ends the 31st though, that's the only thing.

i hear ya......i just sent my pump to them for rebuild to jump on the sale. I was going to wait but for all I know a fireball could consume us all in 2 weeks........and at least this way right before the fireball consumes me I can yell aloud " stage 2+ was awesome" LOL!!


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## [email protected] (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
i hear ya......i just sent my pump to them for rebuild to jump on the sale. I was going to wait but for all I know a fireball could consume us all in 2 weeks........and at least this way right before the fireball consumes me I can yell aloud " stage 2+ was awesome" LOL!!

C'mon, everyone knows the fireball isn't coming till Dec 21, 2012.


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

APR is garbage. if ur gonna get one then forge. but if u want a real FMIC eurojet is the way to go


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## aussievfrss (Sep 8, 2008)

I would rather have an intercooler sitting in front getting the coldest air.
Its much like an air intake system, you want the coldest air.


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## marc1171 (Nov 19, 2008)

I just installed the APR IC.. It's amazing how nice it fit's right in! The quality of this product is beyond the others for sure!
haven't done testing with it yet, but ill come to that asap


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (aussievfrss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aussievfrss* »_I would rather have an intercooler sitting in front getting the coldest air.
Its much like an air intake system, you want the coldest air.

If you're not running the A/C how does it impact the APR IC?
Big surface area + huge cooling fins = win.
Dave


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
If you're not running the A/C how does it impact the APR IC?
Big surface area + huge cooling fins = win.
Dave


because it sits behind all the other stuff. there is a limit to the size of intercooler. bigger is not always better! apr has overdone it and made a sh*tty ptoduct!


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

I wouldnt get either. Id buy my own aluminum pipes, my own Core from a good company, and some silicone bends and do it myself for less than half the price...
Id rather have a fat TRUE FMIC than a thicker stock one or a crappy twintercooler.
or do what i plan on doing if i keep the car: water to air.


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## brekdown29 (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: (rysskii3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rysskii3* »_APR is garbage. if ur gonna get one then forge. but if u want a real FMIC eurojet is the way to go

I don't even know where to start regarding how wrong this entire statement is.
Like crew said, if you want a twin setup, VF is superior to the Forge. Based on first hand accounts regarding quality and fitment, EJ would be toward the bottom of the list. 
I think the Forge is a good product and the APR is the best there is if you don't care about the IC being front mounted.


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (brekdown29)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brekdown29* »_
I don't even know where to start regarding how wrong this entire statement is.
Like crew said, if you want a twin setup, VF is superior to the Forge. Based on first hand accounts regarding quality and fitment, *EJ would be toward the bottom of the list*. 
I think the Forge is a good product and the APR is the best there is if you don't care about the IC being front mounted.


hahaha. are u f**king serious? have u seen the setup in person? i have never done FMIC bfore EJ. this thing fits tight and perfect! get ur facts straight!


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## broccliman (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (rysskii3)*

I am also curious as to why "EJ would be toward the bottom of the list."


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (broccliman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *broccliman* »_I am also curious as to why "EJ would be toward the bottom of the list."

cuz he has never seen one in person, or had any experience with it


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## broccliman (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: APR vs Forge Twintercooler (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_From the small amount of reviews I could find, I've narrowed it down to the Forge Twintercooler and the APR FMIC.

Was there anything from the reviews that took EJ out of the running? I will be in the market for an IC soon so I was just curious. 
Thx


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## brekdown29 (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: (rysskii3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rysskii3* »_
hahaha. are u f**king serious? have u seen the setup in person? i have never done FMIC bfore EJ. this thing fits tight and perfect! get ur facts straight!

glad you find it funny/serious as a heart attack/seen it in person on several different applications/core quality is suspect/know several people with fitment and longevity issues/assuming makes an ass out of you/k thx.


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## brekdown29 (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: (broccliman)*

^^^

_Quote, originally posted by *broccliman* »_I am also curious as to why "EJ would be toward the bottom of the list."


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Just so everyone understands how our i.c. was developed......
We received some valuable data from VAG regarding the front end of the mk5 chassis cars and the way the bumpers and vents are designed to aid us in the .:RGTi concept car project that we provided the engine package for.
We were given some drawings and wind tunnel info regarding VAG's front end design. Our engineers were able to fully understand VAG's choices for ic placement and like them concluded that our core placement was the best spot.


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (brekdown29)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brekdown29* »_
glad you find it funny/serious as a heart attack/seen it in person on several different applications/core quality is suspect/know several people with fitment and longevity issues/assuming makes an ass out of you *and me*/k thx.

fixed
I bought their IC setup the day it was available (was the first on the market i believe.) fitment was second to none and I have never had a single hiccup with the kit in almost 3 plus years of use, as well as two midwest winters. I would be suspect to user error for the problems you described. and as far as core quality. LOL. there is a reason the second fastest gti and fastest rabbit in the world use them, and its not because of suspect core quality. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Just so everyone understands how our i.c. was developed......
We received some valuable data from VAG regarding the front end of the mk5 chassis cars and the way the bumpers and vents are designed to aid us in the .:RGTi concept car project that we provided the engine package for.
We were given some drawings and wind tunnel info regarding VAG's front end design. Our engineers were able to fully understand VAG's choices for ic placement and like them concluded that our core placement was the best spot.

Hey Keith! I wouldn't even bother justifying the APR IC to some people, they just like to bash! When I saw the comment "APR is garbage" from the above poster, I just laugh! It's usually someone who simply couldn't afford it! There are plenty of threads that declare the APR as the best IC, which is why I have one!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

In regards to the EJ FMIC sub-par performance, this log was taken from the 5th pull of back to back runs...


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (mikey3117)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikey3117* »_
Hey Keith! I wouldn't even bother justifying the APR IC to some people, they just like to bash! When I saw the comment "APR is garbage" from the above poster, I just laugh! It's usually someone who simply couldn't afford it! There are plenty of threads that declare the APR as the best IC, which is why I have one!









I've seen smaller intercoolers on turbo diesels pushing in excess of 100 psi


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
I've seen smaller intercoolers on turbo diesels pushing in excess of 100 psi










and?


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (mikey3117)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikey3117* »_
and?

Unless i'm running compound turbos, this setup is overkill. the adiabatic effiecency of the turbo is the limiting factor here, not the intercooler. I'm not knocking APRs products. I question their ethics (or lack there of...) but there products are usually topnotch. if you don't count their billy boat exhaust hanger problemsand multiple stage 2 revision they had to come out with to cure the ailments everyone had with their software, they have a good track record with the mkv generation of cars. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## brekdown29 (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
fixed
I bought their IC setup the day it was available (was the first on the market i believe.) fitment was second to none and I have never had a single hiccup with the kit in almost 3 plus years of use, as well as two midwest winters. I would be suspect to user error for the problems you described. and as far as core quality. LOL. there is a reason the second fastest gti and fastest rabbit in the world use them, and its not because of suspect core quality. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

not to get into semantics but it would only be fixed if i said assume...i didn't. i'm not saying that the ej kit is bad. i think their oem fitment kit for approx. $600 is the best value on the market. but from what i've seen FIRSTHAND, it would not be my top choice if money was no object. that is all.


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
Unless i'm running compound turbos, this setup is overkill. the adiabatic effiecency of the turbo is the limiting factor here, not the intercooler. I'm not knocking APRs products. I question their ethics (or lack there of...) but there products are usually topnotch. if you don't count their billy boat exhaust hanger problemsand multiple stage 2 revision they had to come out with to cure the ailments everyone had with their software, they have a good track record with the mkv generation of cars. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I would tend to agree on the overkill point. The stock intercooler does a pretty good job. I run at DE's with boost at max for extended periods (with K03 and Revo Stg 2), even on hot days the boost holds steady every lap. Do I need a bigger intercooler? Probably not, although I think following the factory model isn't a bad thing, if I went to the K04 turbo, I'd likely bump my intercooler to the S3 unit. It has enough efficiency to match the K04's additional boost, and its a perfect fit. For street price of <$500 what more could you want?


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bostonaudi1)*

All good points guys! I'm not a master mechanic or tuner, and on top of that this is my first turbocharged car that I've modded... I have to rely on what others have said and purchased in regards to their IC choice. My OCD kicks in strong too when I'm making choices and since I have pretty much an APR tuned car, I stayed with APR for the IC. It is probably overkill but it's nice to know that when I "hopefully" go to Stage 3, I won't have to worry about another IC choice.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (bostonaudi1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bostonaudi1* »_
I would tend to agree on the overkill point. The stock intercooler does a pretty good job. I run at DE's with boost at max for extended periods (with K03 and Revo Stg 2), even on hot days the boost holds steady every lap. Do I need a bigger intercooler? Probably not, although I think following the factory model isn't a bad thing, if I went to the K04 turbo, I'd likely bump my intercooler to the S3 unit. It has enough efficiency to match the K04's additional boost, and its a perfect fit. For street price of <$500 what more could you want?



intercooler inefficiency won't decrease your boost pressure as your wastegate duty will increase to meet requested.
Lower iat's will always make more power at the same boost pressures and will typically lower wastegate duty cycle increasing the efficiency of the turbocharger and therefore its overall life.
an i.c. upgrade would be very beneficial to you in a racing environment regardless of who's software and what turbo unless the i.c. is too big which our's most certainly is not.


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
fixed
I bought their IC setup the day it was available (was the first on the market i believe.) fitment was second to none and I have never had a single hiccup with the kit in almost 3 plus years of use, as well as two midwest winters. I would be suspect to user error for the problems you described. and as far as core quality. LOL. there is a reason the second fastest gti and fastest rabbit in the world use them, and its not because of suspect core quality. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: (rysskii3)*

I was aware of the eurojet solution but it honestly never crossed my mind. I have no experience with their products and haven't heard a lot of testimonials about them...other than some subpar to average reviews.


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## anoobis82 (May 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bostonaudi1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bostonaudi1* »_
I would tend to agree on the overkill point. The stock intercooler does a pretty good job. I run at DE's with boost at max for extended periods (with K03 and Revo Stg 2), even on hot days the boost holds steady every lap. Do I need a bigger intercooler? Probably not, although I think following the factory model isn't a bad thing, if I went to the K04 turbo, I'd likely bump my intercooler to the S3 unit. It has enough efficiency to match the K04's additional boost, and its a perfect fit. For street price of <$500 what more could you want?


I agree to a point....If you plan on going big turbo I def reccomend the APR IC as it is tested and proven to maintain colder temps longer than any other IC...But if you are just planning on doing mild mods and sticking with a stock turbo...then paying almost 1K for a IC is def overkill....


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (anoobis82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *anoobis82* »_
I agree to a point....If you plan on going big turbo I def reccomend the APR IC as it is tested and proven to maintain colder temps longer than any other IC...But if you are just planning on doing mild mods and sticking with a stock turbo...then paying almost 1K for a IC is def overkill....

Perhaps you may forget that with a chip the stock turbo is usually running out of it's peak efficiency range, therefore the air that comes out of the turbo will be significantly warmer than the air from a larger turbo at the same PSI levels.
Dave


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## anoobis82 (May 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Perhaps you may forget that with a chip the stock turbo is usually running out of it's peak efficiency range, therefore the air that comes out of the turbo will be significantly warmer than the air from a larger turbo at the same PSI levels.
Dave

True...good point...especially if you are competing in a type of event....but answer me this...are you going to put 1K down on an IC when your only planning to dump about 2K into you car?....What Im saying is that depending on your intentions with the car, you should stick with the stock IC unless you plan on dumping extensive mods into it....


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

What if you used the APR & Forge FMIC together? lol


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## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

Using Forge and S3 myself.
I am running at 1700m. So am fairly high.If there was lag to be had I should be feeling it.
Haven't logged but have "felt" no permissable lag compared to just stock GTi cooler. And I did a straight transitionm from GTI intercooler to both S3 and Forge at the same time.
Am running K04 with all the accesories. Straight away noticed the car felt more urgent and now so far havn't been able to get any heat soak she just keep pulling and pulling and pulling.
Install took around 8hrs and some silicon pipe cutting was required but am very impressed so far.
I did want the APR intercooler but in S.A. the distributor is a complete rip off. 
APR intercooler = R 18 000.
S3 + Forge Intercooler = R 11 000.
That's a huge saving for a product I feel might even be better for cooling based on the double surface area keeping things cool.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Diocletian, PM sent.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (anoobis82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *anoobis82* »_
True...good point...especially if you are competing in a type of event....but answer me this...are you going to put 1K down on an IC when your only planning to dump about 2K into you car?....What Im saying is that depending on your intentions with the car, you should stick with the stock IC unless you plan on dumping extensive mods into it....

After Stage II with exhaust, I went with the IC. The IC brings a whole new level of consistency to the car during daily driving. Suddenly the car simply isn't as sluggish in the summer heat as before. 
Dave


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## anoobis82 (May 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
After Stage II with exhaust, I went with the IC. The IC brings a whole new level of consistency to the car during daily driving. Suddenly the car simply isn't as sluggish in the summer heat as before. 
Dave

Yea me too...especially after I did the APR HPFP...def keeps the car cooler during city driving....I was running Stage II for a while and the stock IC was doing fine...but I figured since I just spent 650 bucks on a HPFP I might as well get an IC...lol


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## Diocletian (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (anoobis82)*

Well look at my mods list in my sig. That's what I've done so far and I haven't had the car for a year yet. I plan on getting a K04 by next summer so I think this would be a logical upgrade for me. Plus being in South Florida were the weather is as hot as @ss it makes sense. Heat soak is a big issue with my car and I can DEFINITELY feel it during this time of the year.


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## anoobis82 (May 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Diocletian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Diocletian* »_Well look at my mods list in my sig. That's what I've done so far and I haven't had the car for a year yet. I plan on getting a K04 by next summer so I think this would be a logical upgrade for me. Plus being in South Florida were the weather is as hot as @ss it makes sense. Heat soak is a big issue with my car and I can DEFINITELY feel it during this time of the year.

yea that would be a good idea then...I feel your pain when Im in NC and CA....now the summers in Alaska are the FN' best dude...the high is like 70 degrees tops...my car has def had its best runs in AK


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re:*

The purpose of an aftermarket intercooler, regardless of the type or configuration, IS NOT to increase horsepower. The purpose is solely to increase cooling efficiency, reduce charge intake temperatures, eliminate heatsoak, improve consistency, etc.
If, on any application, any added amount of cooling efficiency results in an increase in power, it is undoubtedly a welcomed side effect, however, any increase in power will be based on dozens of other factors in addition to the intercooler.
Our kit provides the largest overall effective surface area for heat dissipation with a minimal loss in pressure.
For all of you fervent disbelievers of the TWIN-intercooler design we impliment, VW and Audi themselves openly endorse and support the use of twin parallel intercoolers, and use them on one of their most popular diesel engines throughout Europe and the rest of the world in various models.
The fact that this is a diesel motor is irrelevant to the core function of the intercoolers within the system. Their job remains the same and they obviously work well enough for VAG to incorporate them on such a widely used engine.
Have a read of the press release found here:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2040824...-facility-and-front-grille-for-the-vw-phaeton

_Quote, originally posted by *VW's Press Release* »_In order to achieve *the best possible efficiency* from the turbocharger, *the temperature of the intake air is effectively lowered through two parallel intercoolers with a minimal loss in pressure*.

This engine can be sound in all of the following vehicles, ALL using the same twin intercooler setup:
B7 A4
A5 Coupe
C6 A6 (also on the 2.7 V6 TDI)
D3 A8
Q7 SUV
Touareg
Phaeton
The motor as used in the A8 V6 TDI








Again, the same motor in the Q7 SUV








A4 setup. The last row in the right intercooler is the crossover tube that brings both separate pipes back together in the last intercooler end tank.








A similar setup is used in the A6.








We have measured no more than a 0.7 PSI pressure drop and there is ample evidence showing no change to spool up on various cars, so the increase in volume is negligible at best and is more than overcome by the added cooling efficiency, as has been noted on our own dynos as well as more than a few independent tests. 
Were there any appreciable increase in "lag", the onset of boost and power would be achieved later in the RPM band, which has NOT been shown to be the case with our kit.
"Lag", as the term is most commonly used, implies that there is a delay in how quickly the turbo is able to spool and generate the ECU's request amount of boost pressure. This delay, if it occured, would result in a loss of power lower in the RPM band prior to when the turbo reaches full spool, since would be reaching full spool later.
If you look at all of the data we have previously provided, you will notice all of the following:
- Lower intake temperatures from idle to redline
- An almost exponential increase in cooling efficiency as boost increases
- Added horsepower sooner in the RPM band than baseline tests
- Added torque sooner in the RPM band than baseline tests
All of this indicates that our intercooler does EXACTLY what an aftermarket intercooler is designed and expected to do for this application. The fact that the car reaches full boost sooner and subsequently makes more power sooner in the RPM band and for longer is clear evidence of this fact.
http://www.forgemotorsport.com...k.pdf
http://forgemotorsport.com/med...r.pdf
http://forgemotorsport.com/med...e.pdf
As for any potential reduced efficiency of the OEM intercooler or the radiator and A/C condenser that are sandwiched with it, we have seen no evidence of any negative change. Obviously the OEM intercooler remains largely unaffected as the entire charge cooling system has repeatedly shown measurable improvements to overall cooling efficiency and numerous people have validated our findings in that regard. We have not measured ourselves, nor has anyone else presented us with any evidence of higher coolant temps after installing our intercooler, thus indicating marginal to no affect on the radiator and A/C condenser as well.
There is still the entire UPPER bumper grill which remains completed unobstructed allowing ambient airflow to everything behind it, as well as two rather substantial fans which will draw air over the entire sandwich thus maintaing the cooling capacity of the OEM componentry.
The forward placement of our core is no different from the placement of multiple other FMIC kits, and no adverse affects to the radiator nor A/C condenser have been claimed to result from the installation of those kits, and even the OEM S3 and APR's replacement units place a substantial additional volume of material in front of the radiator, and coolant temps remain unaffected with the installation of those parts as well, so the ACTUAL affects on the cooling system are marginal at best, if at all.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Mike, you are clearly using an example of an engine with packaging constraints which force VW/Audi to utilize parallel intercoolers. Aside from the fact, you will see that neither core obstructs the other.








Dave


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## aussievfrss (Sep 8, 2008)

Well wouldn't using the OEM intercooler location with the Radiator Cooler sitting in front of it be an obstruction as well???


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*

My example illustrtates very clearly that the other supposed downsides to a parallel intercooler configuration as outlined by yourself and others are not nearly the detriment that you proclaim. 
Furthermore, VW and Audi could have just as easily developed a single intercooler setup for the above mentioned applications, just as they have done for the tranverse FSI/TSI cars, sandwiching it between the radiator an A/C condenser if such placement were superior to a degree that warranted doing so. 
Why not space the radiator and A/C condenser apart on those applications as well, and fit a large front mount inbetween, and save themselves the unnecesary extra volume of piping connecting the parallel side mounts? 
Again, you have provided absolutely no supporting evidence indicating that any "_obstructions_" have negatively impacted the application in any way. If you were to place particle board in the front bumper grills completely blocking airflow to everything behind, I would not doubt there would be an increase in coolant temps., yet we use a core with a fin density such that ample ambient airflow can penetrate the forward placement of the core and still effectively act upon the radiator and A/C condenser. Not to mention, neither the thermostat nor radiator fans will be prevented from regulating coolant temps.


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## aussievfrss (Sep 8, 2008)

I have concerns with the APR Intercooler after seeing some dynos of an APR Stage 3 car here in Australia. When they dyno'd the car..., it had an intake air temp reading of 240 degree celsius and an ambient temp of around 20 something degree celsius. His car produced amazing amount of power with 300kw, but surely the intake air temp can be a lot lower, especially with such a well designed intercooler.
Considering the APR intake is 3 times larger than the stock one, I thought it would be able to reduce intake air temp not increase it.


_Modified by aussievfrss at 11:27 PM 7-23-2009_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (aussievfrss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aussievfrss* »_Well wouldn't using the OEM intercooler location with the Radiator Cooler sitting in front of it be an obstruction as well???

Radiator sits behind the IC.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_My example illustrtates very clearly that the other supposed downsides to a parallel intercooler configuration as outlined by yourself and others are not nearly the detriment that you proclaim. 
Furthermore, VW and Audi could have just as easily developed a single intercooler setup for the above mentioned applications, just as they have done for the tranverse FSI/TSI cars, sandwiching it between the radiator an A/C condenser if such placement were superior to a degree that warranted doing so. 
Why not space the radiator and A/C condenser apart on those applications as well, and fit a large front mount inbetween, and save themselves the unnecesary extra volume of piping connecting the parallel side mounts? 

Nope, ever wonder why the longi 2.0ts don't use a single FMIC but two small SMICs in series? They simply can't fit the FMIC with ample clearance for the bumper support and such. Regardless in every picture example of the same engine you have provided, all of the piping is minimized to reduce overall volume, and then increases in sizing for the TB pipe. Your design shares very little in common with the OEM setup.


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Again, you have provided absolutely no supporting evidence indicating that any "_obstructions_" have negatively impacted the application in any way. If you were to place particle board in the front bumper grills completely blocking airflow to everything behind, I would not doubt there would be an increase in coolant temps., yet we use a core with a fin density such that ample ambient airflow can penetrate the forward placement of the core and still effectively act upon the radiator and A/C condenser. Not to mention, neither the thermostat nor radiator fans will be prevented from regulating coolant temps.

So you are claiming that if you obstruct airflow that there is no impact on IATs and coolant temp? Why bother having any open grilles at all then? Cars would be significantly more aerodynamic if they had no openings on the front bumper at all.








Dave


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (aussievfrss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aussievfrss* »_I have concerns with the APR Intercooler after seeing some dynos of an APR Stage 3 car here in Australia. When they dyno'd the car..., it had an intake air temp reading of 240 degree celsius and an ambient temp of around 20 something degree celsius. His car produced amazing amount of power with 300kw, but surely the intake air temp can be a lot lower, especially with such a well designed intercooler.
Considering the APR intake is 3 times larger than the stock one, I thought it would be able to reduce intake air temp not increase it.

_Modified by aussievfrss at 11:27 PM 7-23-2009_









Come on . . . you and I both know that the reason why it read 240C was because the IAT probe blew out from the pipe and was damaged. 
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/...73859
The car wouldn't be able to make that amount of power with either a boost leak or 240C IATs.
Dave


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_*Nope*, ever wonder why the longi 2.0ts don't use a single FMIC but two small SMICs in series? They simply can't fit the FMIC with ample clearance for the bumper support and such. 
Regardless in every picture example of the same engine you have provided, all of the piping is minimized to reduce overall volume, and then increases in sizing for the TB pipe. Your design shares very little in common with the OEM setup.

That's it?
Your responses now have been reduced to "*nope*" and further speculation by yourself regarding the engineering behind the usage of various OEM componentry?
Do you know the finite volume of the charge piping on those applications in comparison to ours to be able to make the firm declaration that our intercooler is detrimentally large, while that shown above is substantially lower to a degree that is not harmful, but beneficial? 
Beyond speculating about OEM packaging constraints?
When you have previously made declarative statements to the effect that any increase in piping volume is harmful regardless.

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_By effectively increasing the volume, you increase the time required to pressurize the entire system thereby inducing further lag. 
This philosophy doesn't apply to only the twintercooler but to ALL intercoolers.
Dave

Furthermore, you have openly admitted to having never used our product firsthand, so any statement you make about it is speculation at best.

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_I do not have firsthand experience with the Twintercooler (meaning i don't have or have had on my car). However, others have, and one particular member forwarded his logs to me.....
Dave


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_So you are claiming that if you obstruct airflow that there is no impact on IATs and coolant temp? Why bother having any open grilles at all then? Cars would be significantly more aerodynamic if they had no openings on the front bumper at all.








Dave

Every statement I make is twisted by you in an attempt to help support your arguement because you otherwise have no leg to stand on yourself.
I am making no claims beyond that which I know for a fact to be true.
We have measured no adverse affects on the cooling systems of the application with our product installed, and you have continually provided NO evidence to support your repeatecd claims that problems exist based on nothing more than speculation and conjecture.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

To the OP, here are photos of our intercooler:

















Here is how large it is in the front of the car:


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## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Arin, how thick is the APR intercooler?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*









GTI - 32mm
S3 - 40mm
*APR - 57mm*


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Lour32: keep in mind that thickness needs to be taken into consideration with # of charge rows + size of cooling fins.


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## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*

Well I have a EJ intercooler, but I probably would have bought a APR one if they made the hoses that would fit my B6 Passat!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Well I have a EJ intercooler, but I probably would have bought a APR one if they made the hoses that would fit my B6 Passat!

FWIW, your current FMIC is more than satisfactory...the EJ set-up is a great FMIC (so is the APR set-up) and definitely not worth switching out. That said, I don't believe there is any problem fitting the APR IC on the Passat (at least to my knowledge).


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## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

I agree the EJ intercooler is pretty darn good! I think APR hoses are to short for the Passat application!


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