# Understanding Timing Pull



## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

Greetings,
Preface: I searched vortex for 'timing' and 'pull' but came up short.
I am currently learning how to tune my REVO STGII FSI. I understand how boost and fuel can be adjusted and the results of doing so. What I'm not as clear on is how timing pull relates to the two other variables. I have been logging quite a bit and according to VAG SCOPE I am seeing peak timing pull as high as 6.5deg on the 4th cyl. I'm running the 93oct program which I believe is 7,4,9. I remeber hearing that TP should never exceed 5deg. I checked the misfire counter and it doesn't appear that there has been any knock. A/F looks good; only dipping to 10:1 under full load. 
My graphs can be found here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4258663
How far can I push the timing pull before I start to see problems?
Thanks!


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (SmithersSP)*

Once you see knock retard, there is NO more timing you can add...
Example: see ~3-4 deg retard, you think heck i'll add a bit more.
SO you add ~3 deg.
result: your next log will show 6-7 deg retard. i.e. the engine was already running as much ignition as possible.
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (SmithersSP)*

I'm running *6-4-6* & my car enjoys it very much. Anything higher than* 4* in timing the car doesn't like (too much pull)










_Modified by rippie74 at 6:09 PM 2-23-2009_


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## LeoB (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (rippie74)*

Rippie, have you tried 7-4-6?
I'm currently running Stage 2+ with 6-4-7, and it seems to me that I lost some low-end torque, compared to Stage 2 with 7-4-9.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (LeoB)*

Here are my graphs:
Running 7-4-9. 29F, 990Bar


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

As you can see my 4th gear timing pull is nasty...


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*

Without a fuel pump upgrade there is not much tuning change that you can make over the baseline 6-4-9 (93oct) which is where you should be at. Pull boost back to a 6 and that timing pull will lessen. IF you do log your wg.N75 duty cycle, fuel rail pressure requested vs actual, overall timing advance and injector duty cycle and We'll see if we cant squeeze something more out. 
Less is more http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1


_Modified by Noside at 4:41 AM 2-24-2009_


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## LeoB (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: (Noside)*

Noside, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in general high boost gives you more power than advanced timing, if everything else is equal. So, may be, the OP should leave boost at 7 and just pull back timing?
On a side note, I was running Stage 2 (7-4-9) for about 9,000 miles and was getting a lot of "soft" fuel cuts. Just replacing the HPFP, without changing the settings, solved the problem.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (LeoB)*

If your setting is higher on Default *B6* & you _don't_ have an aftermarket hpfp, then (in most cases) your ECU is requesting in boost what the factory hpfp & fuel rail can't provide. So the higher you set your boost the ECU is going to demand more fuel. This is why you are getting soft codes. I'm running *B6-T4-F9* currently. (I'm breaking in my SB clutch) So I'm taking it easy on the car & only giving it some gas (1/2 to 3/4 throttle) while I'm already in a specifc gear... & not trying to bang gears or launch the car hard off the line. 
Anyway the car feels crisp right now... because I'm not going WOT. However when the clutch is fully broken in (1000+miles) I'll switch back to *B6-T4-F6*. _My car makes more power & pulls harder through every gear @ this setting. _
Timing is where the POWER is made. (this is why Noside said less [boost] is more) I was running *B6-T3-F6* I had ZERO timing pull & the car felt a little sluggish. So I bumped the timing to *T4* & it was like driving a whole different car (that coupled with the fuel setting on *F6*)



_Modified by rippie74 at 11:12 AM 2-24-2009_


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

What are the longterm consequences of timing pull greater than -5deg? I'm not seeing any missfires/knock. 
Thanks


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SmithersSP* »_What are the longterm consequences of timing pull greater than -5deg? I'm not seeing any missfires/knock. 
Thanks

Long term effects of timing pull?? I really don't know... Thought.. it can't possibly be that good for your car.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Once you see knock *retard*, there is NO more timing you can add...

Let's hope the OP doesn't take that as an insult.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

Haha. None taken Arin. I'm just trying to get a better handle on tuning. I wish there was a faq or newbie tuning guide out there. I couldn't find anything on das google. So what I'm gathing is that:
One can increase the timing # until timing pull exceeds -5deg.
One can increase boost until the engine starts to knock/misfire?
Thanks for the patience with my noobish questions.


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## jeffc31337 (Dec 31, 2007)

If you aren't seeing knock/preignition/misfires then you aren't doing damage. 
From what i've heard having the knock sensor need to intervene is going to have a more detrimental effect on performance than just having a tune that is requesting slightly less timing.
I don't profess to know all the details, but I've heard this from several tuners on different platforms(335 and evos): if a car is requesting 20 degrees timing and pulling 6 you are getting worse performance than a car requesting 16 degrees timing and pulling 2 even though the net effect of both is ~ 14 degrees of timing. Maybe one of the tuners on the board can speak to that specifically or say it isn't true for this particular platform.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

So your saying that having my boost at 7 with no knock, and shoing -6deg timing pull is just fine?


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## jeffc31337 (Dec 31, 2007)

Fine is relative.







I don't think it's good, no. But I don't think you are doing damage though if you don't have knock. For maximum perfomance you want to a tune that is right on the edge of what the hardware can provide.
Just remeber your knock sensor can only pull so much timing; if your knock sensor were to fail or you got a fill of bad gas and were running an agressive of enough timing map that the sensor couldn't pull as much as it needed bad thigns may happen!


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## JLT (May 18, 2008)

from what i understand, anything under -6 is permissible. if you are pulling more than -6, then you need a less aggressive tune, or need to buy more modzzzz


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (JLT)*

It may sound funny but "timing pull" is something very subjective and it's
specific to each car and each car engine.What this means is that even though two
cars might have the exact same mods, doesn't mean their timing pull will be the same,
or even the same for the same rpm.
Timing pull is "decided" by the cars ECU not only by the knock sensors nowadays.
Its the result of processing by the ECU of all the sensors in the cars engine, and the 
end result is the "best possible", ALWAYS taking into consideration the engine's 
"health", and fine tuning.Changes to the way the engine is "viewed" by the sensors
effect the whole management by the ECU, and the end result as i said is individualized 
for each motor/car.
There has been a lot of talk about how much "acceptable" timing pull is, and looking around 
the net, there is no concrete answer.What is safe to say is that besides possible damage to the engine
if that timing pull wasn't there, there is also the fact of power loss from an improperly tuned engine.
Unfortunately custom tuning isn't readily available, at least from the serious companies out there,so
people are left to their own devices to make the most out of their mods, trying to reach peak performance,
with the same tune their buddy might be making more power with.All the above has to say is that 
unfortunately you can't have your cake and eat it too.The only true "adaptable" software out there,
is Revo's but even that with all it's versatility can make up for different mods and different situations.
Lowering boost as it was recommended, is gonna lower both your peak and also your constant boost,
making the car pull..."better" in the "max timing pull" rev band, but also losing from where your pull (or lack of) would allow for more boost to be run.Its a win/lose situation.
Or at least that's my view on things....


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SmithersSP* »_So your saying that having my boost at 7 with no knock, and shoing -6deg timing pull is just fine?

I'm saying with your boost at 7 its worthless. You don't hold requested values. With boost 6 you'll boost the same but this time hitting your specified value. IDK with Euro cars it seems when everything is running somewhat harmonious and where the ecu wants it without having to struggle to hard the car runs better overall and produces more power. Rather then working with big blocks and you just want to dump as much fuel and air into as possible to create big power. Timing is key and something I've always used in my tuning philosophy.
Overall the changes you make on your sps+ don't directly effect boost or fuel or anything it really effects everything as the base of the program is holding a your user specified AFR and everything else stems off of it.
As far as your knock sensors and timing pull 12* is the max limit by the ecu which is why most users rely on 6 being a safe max due to ambient conditions and fuel quality variables. On my behalf I don't like to see more then 3 before my specified and actual values lock in and that well doesn't take me to long is you looked at my previous logs with the Revo Stg2+ file http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Noside at 1:01 PM 2-24-2009_


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*Re: (Noside)*

Fellas,
I haven't read the posts since my last but I wanted to post these graphs. I'm in the parking lot of my Dub Club meet.


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Your setting are too aggressive. You need to detune them (as Noside mentioned). Your overall timing advance looks terrible (8deg ATDC right before peak boost & around 10 BTDC @ 5800) and WG % doesn't look great either. I say start with turning boost down one and relog.


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (rbradleymedmd)*

looks like my W/G duty cycle


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Your setting are too aggressive. You need to detune them (as Noside mentioned). Your overall timing advance looks terrible (8deg ATDC right before peak boost & around 10 BTDC @ 5800) and WG % doesn't look great either. I say start with turning boost down one and relog.

EXACTLY http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

Sounds good. I'll do do that. Unfortunetly I'm heading out of town til Monday so it will have to wait. I'll update the thread with fresh graphs when I get them. 
Thanks for all the help/advice!


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## brekdown29 (Jun 26, 2007)

keep us posted


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (LeoB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LeoB* »_Rippie, have you tried 7-4-6?
I'm currently running Stage 2+ with 6-4-7, and it seems to me that I lost some low-end torque, compared to Stage 2 with 7-4-9.

Leo, I got Vag-Com now! So call me and will check your car. Still have the deal of I help do logs you beef up my lab top?








oh ya good thread, so if pulling timing it's better to lower boost or timing?


_Modified by fahrenheit 525 at 2:34 AM 2-26-2009_


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (fahrenheit 525)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fahrenheit 525* »_
Leo, I got Vag-Com now! So call me and will check your car. Still have the deal of I help do logs you beef up my lab top?








oh ya good thread, so if pulling timing it's better to lower boost or timing?

_Modified by fahrenheit 525 at 2:34 AM 2-26-2009_

Depends on how well you are hitting your requested value as far as boost is concerned. Also have to keep into account rail pressure and injector duty cycle to determine how well you can maintain the AFR that you have specified with the Fuel Setting. 
Tuning Revo is difficult as if you make one adjustment for any of the three variables it will directly effect multiple things on the car. Its all about finding your cars sweet spot. Lots of trial and error. I know when I head out to start tuning again in about a week or two I'll spend about 3-4 hours running back to back to back reviewing logs and making adjustments.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (Noside)*

Greetings,
I'm finally back in town and had a chance to log a 4th gear pull. Boost - 6, Timing - 4, Fuel - 9. 55F


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Less boost...log 4-4-9 and then see where you're at. IMO, your settings are still too aggressive. You're still pulling too much timing upon boost onset (thus the ATDC overall timing advance) and in the upper RPM, your car is pulling timing again...thus creating zero timing advance (or very little) as you approach redline. Do you happen to have an intercooler upgrade? I would imagine that your IAT are rising quite rapidly towards redline...thus the higher the corrections factors higher in the band.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

Only the stock intercooler. 6-4-9 is what Revo recomends for a STGII downpipe/intake senerio. I'll try 4-4-9 and 5-4-9 and see what I log. It's dissapointing to think that my car can't even handle REVO's baseline STGII configuration.


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*

Your graphs dont look good. Choppy timing advance, pull every where, you dont meet spec boost at all. What does your rail pressure and AFR's look like? I've got plenty of prelim logs here so far and there will be plenty more to add if you want read ask questions Ill explain as much as I can. But these generally are what I consider good healthy looking logs. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

AF is spot on. Drops to 12:1 under full load but is right on par with what the ECM is calling for. What program were those plot made with? Is it the method in which I'm plotting which is making it look choppy? I don't have any smoothing enabled. 
Either way;
What could be causing all this pull? Is this indicative of a larger overal problem?


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

Bump for advice...


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SmithersSP* »_
What could be causing all this pull? Is this indicative of a larger overal problem?
 
If you look at the the cars pulling lots of timing and under performing its the 06 and early cars . 
IMO there some type of hardware spec that's different along with the ECU ability having less internal maps to pick from causing this timing pull.







Bob.G


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (Noside)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noside* »_
Depends on how well you are hitting your requested value as far as boost is concerned. Also have to keep into account rail pressure and injector duty cycle to determine how well you can maintain the AFR that you have specified with the Fuel Setting. 
Tuning Revo is difficult as if you make one adjustment for any of the three variables it will directly effect multiple things on the car. Its all about finding your cars sweet spot. Lots of trial and error. I know when I head out to start tuning again in about a week or two I'll spend about 3-4 hours running back to back to back reviewing logs and making adjustments. 

what would be the blocks to log to get a good idea of what's going on could you please give the #'s


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: Understanding Timing Pull (fahrenheit 525)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fahrenheit 525* »_
what would be the blocks to log to get a good idea of what's going on could you please give the #'s

Under ADV mes blocks in the engine control module check off MB001 Engine Speed, MB002 Injection Median, MB011 Timing Angle (current value), MB020,1,2,3,4 Timing Pull, MB031 AFR,Spec,Act,MB114WG/N75, MB115 Boost,Spec,Act, MB230 Rail Pressure, Spec,Act.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

I'm using this as a control. 6-4-9. 4th gear. 62F. WTF is going on with my cyl 4 timing pull and my timing overall! I'm going to hack off the resonator and see if the decrease in backpressure helps. Otherwise I'm going to need to kick the timing down a notch...










_Modified by SmithersSP at 5:33 PM 3-20-2009_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SmithersSP* »_. WTF is going on with my cyl 4 timing pull and my timing overall!









Looking at your graph my guess your IAT where climbing too high and its pulling the timing back or your HPFP actual pressure is not keeping up with what your software is requesting via the select + . 
Get your hands on a VAG- tool and get logs to confirm .







Bob.G


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

So you are saying that I should log IAT and rail pressure?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SmithersSP* »_So you are saying that I should log IAT and rail pressure?

Yes , I would start with those blocks/ logs







Bob.G


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Your timing looks pretty horrible as it is dipping very far into ATDC timing.








I'd try a lower timing setting.
Dave


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

They shipped my ass to TX again. It will be a week before I can run 6-3-9 and log. Thanks for the ungoing help guys!


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

Greetings,
I finally had a chance to log some more data. Per the suggestions in this thread I logged rail pressure, injector timing and AIT. The ambient air temp was 68F. My AIT's (block 04-4) never exceeded 36C. I am still at 6-4-9. 
Here are the other two plots.



















_Modified by SmithersSP at 11:07 PM 4-12-2009_


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

I had a race cat installed and the resonator deleted today. While I don't think the res was creating my timing issue I plan on taking more logs to see if it helps...


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Greetings,
I had a chance to log today during lunch. 70F Ambient. B6-T3-F9. I reduced the timing as recommended. No misfires occurred during the log. I still have nasty timing/timing pull. Any advice would be appreciated.








Thanks!


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## JLT (May 18, 2008)

im sorry, did you log your IATS and fuel rail pressures?


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*

Indeed I did. 

_Quote, originally posted by *SmithersSP* »_Greetings,
I finally had a chance to log some more data. Per the suggestions in this thread I logged rail pressure, injector timing and AIT. The ambient air temp was 68F. My AIT's (block 04-4) never exceeded 36C. I am still at 6-4-9. 
Here are the other two plots.
















_Modified by SmithersSP at 11:07 PM 4-12-2009_


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*

Try T1


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*Re: (fahrenheit 525)*

Okay,
Just so I understand, what happens as I continue to lower T and leave B alone (6). Will I start to see misfires?
Thanks!


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*

No shouldn't have any mis fires. I just want to see if we can get rid of timing pull.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Sounds good. I'll try to grab a log on the way home...
Thanks again for the help folks!


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Gentlemen,
Here is my B6-T1-F9 plot.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

It seems that the timing pull is better (below -5) however overall timing advance is still dipping into the negative. The car was noticeably less powerful...


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (SmithersSP)*

It may sound funny but start bumping the timing back up, T2 then T3 and so on. Remember to drive for a while before doing logs and always do 4-5 even 6 runs. It takes the ECU a few runs to adjust under normal driving you don't go WOT all the time and doing logs you do. See how high you can get timing back up to before timing pull is to much. At that setting try to lower boost one setting and see if that lets you run the higher timing setting with less pull.


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## SmithersSP (May 24, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Would it make sense to log with the [near] stock configuration to use as a baseline reading?


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (SmithersSP)*

The idea is to run as much boost and timing as possible. But u have to balance the two to get a happy medium. you may end up running 5-3-9


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

run less boost...you have an '06 model...the ecu on the MY06 is not as boost happy as the MY07+ models. to put it into perspective, I run the apr sII+ file and barely request 20psi spike, but my overall timing advance at this point is 4-6* BTDC...IMO, you need to try something along the lines of 4-3-9 and relog.


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_run less boost...you have an '06 model...the ecu on the MY06 is not as boost happy as the MY07+ models. to put it into perspective, I run the apr sII+ file and barely request 20psi spike, but my overall timing advance at this point is 4-6* BTDC...IMO, you need to try something along the lines of 4-3-9 and relog.


I would try 5-3-9 first and then uf he still has pull then 4-3-9. If lowering your boost fixes your timing pul try to bump up timing one setting at a time


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (fahrenheit 525)*

definitely lower boost. You deviate completely from the requested value which means timing is going to be off. Stick with T1 hone in your boost request and actual values then try building timing.


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (Noside)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noside* »_definitely lower boost. You deviate completely from the requested value which means timing is going to be off. Stick with T1 hone in your boost request and actual values then try building timing.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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