# Cold Start dies, warm ok



## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

89 16v GLI
When I cold start (sits for a few hours) the car it will turn over no problem and start right up. If i do not hit the gas or anything to keep the PRMs up it will die. I have to do this little song and dance for about 4 mins until the car is warmed up.








Here are some things to take into consideration:
-New CTS and Thermo-time Switch
-Timing is advanced a little (2 degrees maybe)
-CSV works
-I dont think it is a fuel problem because the car is running pretty rich right now. I even leaned it down a little bit.
-My Distributor leaks oil (already ordered a new one)
-Tested for vaccum leaks (using cans of carb cleaner) came up with nothing.
It seems as though it may be starving for air? the filter looks ok but aside from that i am at a loss. The car runs fine when it is warm and it will hold an idle (although shakey). I cleaned the ISV maybe 2 months ago.
So i am thinking it is still vacuum leak related? or something else that i dont know about...
Thanks for your time and Help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

Did you test injectors? I had something similar and thought I checked everything. Then I had a shop check it and they found two bad injectors.










_Modified by Flyingsheep at 12:13 AM 12-9-2009_


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

Havent yet, Didnt think that it would be those considering it runs fine when warm...


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (RhodyVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RhodyVW* »_89 16v GLI
Here are some things to take into consideration:
-New CTS and Thermo-time Switch
-Timing is advanced a little (2 degrees maybe)
-CSV works
-I dont think it is a fuel problem because the car is running pretty rich right now. I even leaned it down a little bit.
-My Distributor leaks oil (already ordered a new one)
-Tested for vaccum leaks (using cans of carb cleaner) came up with nothing.


Having oil in the distributor is a bad thing and can/will cause problems. Spray it out with some brake cleaner once in a while until you get the other one. Why didn't you just replace the seal though?
You say it is running rich, how do you know? A lean condition will do just what you say it is currently doing. Until warmed up there is not enough fuel to keep it running, cold engines require a rich mixture to keep running. The cold start system is fine and doing it's job, just to get the engine to start. Once started the engine still needs extra fuel, but the cold start system is no longer giving any help (it's job is just to get it started). So again, and it's important, how did you determine the engine is already rich?


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (WaterWheels)*

I can smell it. The exhaust gases coming out are very rich smelling. I am getting the new distributor today. So i hope that helps a little bit. 
I didnt fix it because It is the seal inside that it leaking and instead of tearing the dizzy apart and probably further damaging it i just decided to get a new one.


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

In my case the bad injectors would make everything miserable until it warmed up, then it got a lot better. I had one that wasn't firing though so it makes it a little different, but it did improve once it warmed up. If you have one or more injectors with a bad spray pattern, it does get better when the engine warms up and you don't really notice. I also smelled my car running rich all the time when this was happening.


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flyingsheep* »_In my case the bad injectors would make everything miserable until it warmed up, then it got a lot better. I had one that wasn't firing though so it makes it a little different, but it did improve once it warmed up. If you have one or more injectors with a bad spray pattern, it does get better when the engine warms up and you don't really notice. I also smelled my car running rich all the time when this was happening.

Did your car have trouble holding an idle by any chance. Mine will not hold an idle while cold and its even starting to struggle when warm. So this might be my answer! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

No... it idled half-decent, but it held it at 1k and didn't die. It could be a combination of things for you. But even if it may not be it definitely check the injectors if you have a bentley manual. should be pretty easy. Just make sure you get new o-rings (the black ones are easy to pop in, the green ones are impossible unless you put grease around them). For me it was actually multiple factors. Even though two injectors were bad, only one was causing the most havoc (the one not firing unless it warmed up or I was at high speed). My injector seats were leaking also which messed with the idle, and I had a vacuum line thing going into the back of the head that wasn't sealed with sillicone.
Here's the thread I made a half a year ago about this issue I had:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
I hope that helps in some shape or form. Our problems aren't identical but one thing I learned from all of that was that even if you are like sure it's not something, better check it, because in my case that happened.


_Modified by Flyingsheep at 1:14 PM 12-10-2009_


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

Also I got another idea for you. Check your grounds, or replace them. It doesn't hurt to add more grounds either. You can get them cheap here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ories


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

I actually cleaned them off and stuck a 0-1 gauge wire from the neg battery mounting point to the head. So hopefully that took care of any grounding issues... Im going to test my injectors either tonight or tomorrow if i cant get to it tonight.
So i was reading in the Bentley, I just need to jump the fuel relay and turn the key and gas should come out?


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

Yeah or I think another way was to take the boot off of the airbox housing and manually lift the air plate up to make them spray.


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

Thanks, I will be trying this tonight!


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

How'd it go?


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

ok, I didnt get to test the volume of the flow but I did see that 2 of my injectors did not have a good spray pattern. I replaced 2 of the injectors and today im going to test the volume of the flow of the new ones versus the old ones and we are going to see if i need to replace the other 2 injectors as well.
The 2 new injectors did not help my start and die problem but i think that i might need to replace the other 2 as well. We shall find out today.


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## spencer2829 (Aug 23, 2009)

the problem is the WUR. try cleaning it, if it still has the problem, replace it.


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (spencer2829)*

Does CIS-E have a WUR? I didnt think that i did... I have a CPR? would cleaning that help?


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

Isn't that the DPR? Differential Pressure Regulator


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

Ok so if i unplug the CTS sensor(which i replaced) it will hold an idle on cold start...at 2k rpms


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (RhodyVW)*

Does it do the same thing with the old CTS? Sounds almost like an ECU malfunction but that's just an educated guess.


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

I do not know if it did that with the old CTS when i first bought the car the first thing that i did was replace all the sensors. As far as i know the CTS is still good because i can drive with it connected when the car is warm.
I thought it was the ECU too, so i swapped my ecu with another one and everything is working the same as it was with my original ecu. I guess im going to have to start testing each individual wire and make sure that they are good








In the mean time i wired a switch to the CTS so i can actually cold start the car.


_Modified by RhodyVW at 4:43 AM 12-14-2009_


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## Flyingsheep (Apr 24, 2008)

Dude that's just bizarre. I think I'm out of ideas. You could check the wires though. Also, you don't have the original CTS on hand?


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (Flyingsheep)*

No way, it was junked 3ish months ago when i swapped it out


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (RhodyVW)*

It sounds like I am having the exact same problem as you. Car will turn right over and then die. At first it would do it a couple times and then on the 3rd time it would turn over and stay running but really low idle like 500rpm. Now It wont stay running unless I give it gas but can't give it to much or it will die. I have to start it then just barly give it gas to keep the rpms up after 30 sec or so it's good to go. 
I pulled apart my WUR to see if it was gunked up or anything and it looked brandnew the PO must have replaced it. So I don't think it's that, I belive I have a vacume leak on the injector O-rings that I thought may be causing the problem,(I don't know if you've check them) I was also wondering about the injectors. I'll be interested to see if replacing yout last 2 injectors will solve your issue. My car also smelled rich like yours so I had leaned it out but richend it back up. Been looking to get a A/F for it.
Also on my car wich is the reason I signed on to day was to make a thread asking about o2 sensors on cis cars and how important they are. I bought mine and the PO had put in a TT downpipe with no 02 sensor, so the car is running no o2 at the moment. Didn't have a problem with it and he had been running without it for a while but I don'r think he drove it in the winter.
Edit: I forgot that also once mine starts now after I hold the rpms up for a little while, when I stop. the car revs up to 2,000 and then falls to 5-900 and thev revs back up to 2,000 it will do it a couple of times befor it settles at somewhere between 5-900.
Also it's not in my sig but I have a 83 GTI thats the car I'm talking about.


_Modified by TWIZTD R32 at 6:23 AM 12-21-2009_


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## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (RhodyVW)*

Too lean or too rich can be quickly evaluated by simply pumping vacuum asisted brakes repeatedly to see if the engine speeds up or slows down (unplug the ISV). If you are too rich than pumping the brakes should cause the engine to run better because you are effectively introducing more air into the manifold past the CIS plate. A water-soaked ECU harness plug can cause problems too.


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (ultravw)*

Rhody, did you do the other injectors? If so did it fix your issue, really sounds like my GTI has the same issue so I'm interested.
I made a video of starting my car in the morning wondering if yours is the same. It's in 4 clips cause my digital camera only does 60sec Videos








http://s275.photobucket.com/al...3.flv
http://s275.photobucket.com/al...4.flv
http://s275.photobucket.com/al...5.flv
http://s275.photobucket.com/al...e.flv
I also did a video of pumping the brakes RPM drops 100-200 rpm but when I stop it revs up about 300rpm. At the end of the first video and then the 2nd you can see even though I stoped pumping the brakes you can see the Idle bouncing but it was idling fine befor I tried pumping the brakes.??? So acordin tot he test I'm a little lean, right? cause you want the rpm to stay still when pumping the brakes.
http://s275.photobucket.com/al...2.flv
http://s275.photobucket.com/al...e.flv


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## aero1591 (Jan 20, 2007)

My car 88' Audi 90 does the same thing . Have you found a cause to this yet


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (aero1591)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aero1591* »_My car 88' Audi 90 does the same thing . Have you found a cause to this yet

I have not... was hoping the OP would mention if replacing his injectors solved the issue or not.


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## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (ultravw)*

My 85 has much of the same symptons. Takes 3-5 false starts in the cold to actually run. I am interested in the pumping the bakes idea. When I pump mine, the engine revs up a little. The ISV was still plugged in, do I need to test with it unplugged? Does this mean that I am running a little rich or lean. I have checked with a DVOM and my duty cycle is right around 45-50%. I have read that a lean mixture will make it hard to start and run when cold but with the readings, not sure which way I need to go. Any help would be awesome


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (khartman2394)*


_Quote, originally posted by *khartman2394* »_My 85 has much of the same symptons. Takes 3-5 false starts in the cold to actually run. I am interested in the pumping the bakes idea. When I pump mine, the engine revs up a little. The ISV was still plugged in, do I need to test with it unplugged? Does this mean that I am running a little rich or lean. I have checked with a DVOM and my duty cycle is right around 45-50%. I have read that a lean mixture will make it hard to start and run when cold but with the readings, not sure which way I need to go. Any help would be awesome









I have read about pumpming the brakes in a couple threads, thats why I decided to give it a try. I did mine with the ISV pluged in, I don't remember anyone saying to unplug it for the test. 
I belive when it rev's up your a little rich because you adding air when you pump the brakes so your getting a better air/fuel mixture. 
In the begining of winter when it was just getting cold mine would start like yours after 3-4 false starts. Now that it's colder it won't start unless I give it a little gas and hold it for 30 sec or so.


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## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: Cold Start dies, warm ok (TWIZTD R32)*

Makes sense that I am running a little rich, and introducing more air will make it run better. I was hoping it was lean so I could richen it up some to make it start better in the cold mornings. The way it is set now, when I check my plugs they have little "crusties" on them and I always thought that indicated lean mixture.







If I richen it up enough that it starts fair in the cold, it seems to not have the power on acceleration that it should. I guess I need to get the WUR off and check it to see if the little screen is maybe gunked up. Not really sure where to look next.


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## aero1591 (Jan 20, 2007)

Well I noticed some wetness around the Differential Pressure Regulator DPR the other day . I changed the two o rings and it is still leaking is there supposed to be a gasket there also or is there a clog in my system somewhere. 
New DPR is $250.00 plus = Out of the question
Any options...


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (aero1591)*

Sorry for the delayed response. I did not end up replacing the other 2 injectors because they flowed just as much as the new ones did. What i did do for a temporary fix was wire the CTS to a switch and turn it off (tricking the motor to think it was a very cold start) until the motor warmed up. Then i would run fine once warmed up.
I did find a couple of new things that were "fun" i had low compression in all of my cylinders ranging from 80-120 psi. I am not sure that this would have any effect on the motor dying out on cold starts but now im tearing it down for a rebuild so i am going to go and check all of the wires even though they seem to be in tact. 
Also, my catalytic converter was basically clogged. The inside of the flex pipe that was on my header had separated it self and was hanging out right in front of my 02 sensor. So i think that may have something to do with why i couldnt get a reading from the DPR with a brand new sensor. 



_Modified by RhodyVW at 10:54 AM 2-4-2010_


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (TWIZTD R32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TWIZTD R32* »_
It sounds like I am having the exact same problem as you. Car will turn right over and then die. At first it would do it a couple times and then on the 3rd time it would turn over and stay running but really low idle like 500rpm. Now It wont stay running unless I give it gas but can't give it to much or it will die. I have to start it then just barly give it gas to keep the rpms up after 30 sec or so it's good to go. 
I pulled apart my WUR to see if it was gunked up or anything and it looked brandnew the PO must have replaced it. So I don't think it's that, I belive I have a vacume leak on the injector O-rings that I thought may be causing the problem,(I don't know if you've check them) I was also wondering about the injectors. I'll be interested to see if replacing yout last 2 injectors will solve your issue. My car also smelled rich like yours so I had leaned it out but richend it back up. Been looking to get a A/F for it.
Also on my car wich is the reason I signed on to day was to make a thread asking about o2 sensors on cis cars and how important they are. I bought mine and the PO had put in a TT downpipe with no 02 sensor, so the car is running no o2 at the moment. Didn't have a problem with it and he had been running without it for a while but I don'r think he drove it in the winter.
Edit: I forgot that also once mine starts now after I hold the rpms up for a little while, when I stop. the car revs up to 2,000 and then falls to 5-900 and thev revs back up to 2,000 it will do it a couple of times befor it settles at somewhere between 5-900.
Also it's not in my sig but I have a 83 GTI thats the car I'm talking about.

_Modified by TWIZTD R32 at 6:23 AM 12-21-2009_


I dont know what you have for ecu in CIS basic but i think that you can adjust your WUR by using the lambda port on your exhaust ( if it is still there)


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (RhodyVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RhodyVW* »_

I dont know what you have for ecu in CIS basic but i think that you can adjust your WUR by using the lambda port on your exhaust ( if it is still there)

Whee would that be on the exhaust? I have a MK2 exhaust Mani and TT down pipe, I put a full 2.25 straight pip I know there is nothing there. So unless it could be on the mk2 mani I probably don't have it. I have seen the threads on modifying the WUR to make it adjustable.


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## RhodyVW (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: (TWIZTD R32)*

I THINK that it is that little piece of pipe that comes up (towards the intake manifold) in the middle of the exhaust manifold, it is capped off at the end.
There is a bung on the manifold where this pipe comes out of, but alot of people put a bolt in it/ cap it off.


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## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: (RhodyVW)*

The small pipe is known as the sniffer tube for the exhaust gas analyzer. I just fixed this problem last night on my 86 Golf being a clogged WUR as expected and proven by a fuel pressure measurement. Bad gas from the previous tank was the gremlin.


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (bouley77)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bouley77* »_i have a jetta 1.7 csi that starts after 3or 4 times when pushing gas,but then when it starts it idles a little funky i have been try to find the cause,Iam new to this working on cars thing.the motor run strong except for the cold start and stalls a few times i thought it was fuel injectors but from reading all this i gues not and what wur and where is that located or cst thanks.









read
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4646417
and
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3261748
Alot of info in there... Mine's doing the same as you .... I can't figure it out.


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (ultravw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ultravw* »_The small pipe is known as the sniffer tube for the exhaust gas analyzer. I just fixed this problem last night on my 86 Golf being a clogged WUR as expected and proven by a fuel pressure measurement. Bad gas from the previous tank was the gremlin.









I wish that worked for mine... pulled it all apart it's brand new... clean as a whistle inside.


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (RhodyVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RhodyVW* »_I THINK that it is that little piece of pipe that comes up (towards the intake manifold) in the middle of the exhaust manifold, it is capped off at the end.
There is a bung on the manifold where this pipe comes out of, but alot of people put a bolt in it/ cap it off. 


so how would I use this to tune the WUR? Do I need to make my WUR ajustable by installing a bolt?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com....html
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3690186


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## blubullet509 (Oct 15, 2007)

*Re: (TWIZTD R32)*

Theres a thread under my name on the main cis page and it has link on how to recalibrate your wur, you will need a fuel pressure gauge.


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## TWIZTD R32 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (blubullet509)*

Found it .. thanks!


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## 75rusty (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: (bouley77)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bouley77* »_i have a jetta 1.7 csi that starts after 3or 4 times when pushing gas,but then when it starts it idles a little funky i have been try to find the cause,Iam new to this working on cars thing.the motor run strong except for the cold start and stalls a few times i thought it was fuel injectors but from reading all this i gues not and what wur and where is that located or cst thanks.









Carefull, this kid will call your mom a whore and block your messages!


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## bouley77 (Jun 26, 2009)

*Re: (75rusty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *75rusty* »_
Carefull, this kid will call your mom a whore and block your messages!








75rusty







he will rip you off









_Modified by bouley77 at 12:35 PM 2-22-2010_


_Modified by bouley77 at 12:35 PM 2-22-2010_


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