# '13 Golf R hyper active ABS



## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

I apologize if this is a third post on this subject, but it seems like I might be able to get a post to stick now, after a week or so of "getting approved".

Anyway, took my R out to finally play in the snow since the roads were clean and covered with nice, hard packed snow.
It accelerated amazingly well, corned quite good, but would not stop worth a damn. The ABS effectively prevented stopping, and I'm sure that downshifting would've been twice as effective as using the brakes.
Tires are Continental DWS, and not being directional I see no reason they would act differently between acceleration and deceleration.
The vehicle itself should be in good shape, having always been garaged, never driven in rain, and with just over 3,000 miles on it.
Actually, this was the first outing with this vehicle since coming back from the dealer for the "20,000-mile" service. Or 2-year service in real life.
And, yes, it's the vehicle. I do know how to drive on snow and ice. 

Any advice appreciated. But if this is really how a Golf R normally behaves, I have a clean one for sale.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

the EWC DWS are not real snow tires, despite what you read on the interwebz. That's why the ABS is kicking in so much on a difficult surface such as packed snow.

It's not the car's fault.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

I'm aware of that, and didn't buy them for use in snow.
What I'd like to figure out is why they only work under acceleration and laterally, but not for deceleration.
Alright, I already know the answer, and it is not tire related but ABS related.
True, I could put the stock tires and wheels back on and try again, but why?


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

Can't stop said:


> I'm aware of that, and didn't buy them for use in snow.
> What I'd like to figure out is why they only work under acceleration and laterally, but not for deceleration.
> Alright, I already know the answer, and it is not tire related but ABS related.
> True, I could put the stock tires and wheels back on and try again, but why?


Acceleration, you also have the benefits of the Haldex coupling kicking in.

laterally, you do have the ABS system working via the ESP system, as well as the Haldex coupling also.

Were you purposely trying to break traction accelerating? and "cornering" as in trying to do the Scandinavian flick?

Plus, full on braking puts a different load on the tire.

If you want to reduce the responsiveness of the ABS system, change the fluid to a regular DOT 4, instead of the Low Viscosity DOT4 it comes from the factory.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Come to think of it, instead of wasting time switching tires, next time the road is clean again (no salt or cinder) I'll measure the difference in stopping distance between downshifting and using the brakes.
That would eliminated the tires' influence altogether, right?


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

BsickPassat said:


> Acceleration, you also have the benefits of the Haldex coupling kicking in.
> 
> laterally, you do have the ABS system working via the ESP system, as well as the Haldex coupling also.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I accelerated as quickly as possible, several times. And, yes, I tried different cornering techniques, all just for fun.
The fun stopped abruptly (unlike the Golf) when I saw salt ahead and decided to turn around. Basically repeated it all on the return trip, with the same results.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Last night I thought about trying some other things that might be worthwhile, it's just that I don't know anywhere near enough about these systems to know if it'd be a waste of time, or could prove something.
First, pulling the fuse for the ABS, which would allow for three different versions of slowing the Golf down; With ABS, downshifting, and without ABS.
Also, if the system(s) used in a Porsche Macan are similar, I could try duplicating what I did with the Golf and find out how/if different the results are.
It might really be stretching it from an apples to apples perspective, but I could also try with a 911 Turbo S.
Anybody with knowledge about the different systems who'd care to guess if the above is worth trying?

Ultimately, I would like to be able to slow the Golf down at least as well as my '71 MGB does, on 12 year old crappy tires.
I'm not even asking for it to be as good at stopping than my Ram 1500 (with its unobtrusive ABS), which it rightfully should be since it's lighter.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Today, by dumb luck, I got the opportunity to duplicate the hard packed snow braking with a Porsche Macan.
Like the Golf, it didn't stop as well as it accelerated. I'd say it was 60/40, meaning that the stopping power was about 20% lesser than the acceleration.
In comparison, the Golf was at about 85/15. 
Yes, there's snow and there's snow, and temperatures were probably different (below freezing both times) but the difference between these two cars was huge. And I doubt that the Macan's three times higher price (technology) is responsible for the difference in deceleration performance.
If price is a factor, my Ram 1500 should stop almost exactly as badly as the Golf does.


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## rommeldawg (May 25, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Well, for what it's worth, I am aware of the differences between all season and winter tires. I also know that studded tires grip better, and that chains can help immensely with traction.
Having grown up in Scandinavia, and consequently drove more on snow, ice, and gravel than on dry pavement, I know fairly well what vehicles can be expected to do, and not do, on various surfaces.
Also having enjoyed much four wheeling, that is another situation where I've learned that ABS and traction control can be detrimental to safe driving.
So, to go back to the actual issue, why does this '13 Golf R refuse to stop on a snow packed road?
Alright, I already know why. The ABS won't allow it. So the question really is; Why is the ABS so sensitive that it prevents decent deceleration?


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

In the snow, ABS does lengthen stopping distances. ABS also gives you the ability to steer.

Without ABS, you'll have to threshold brake, but it does shorten distances, but steering is compromised, in case you also need to get around an obstacle.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Yes, ABS does usually make a for a bit less than max stopping power on slippery surfaces, or even pavement, but in this particular case it's not a bit less.

The Macan was a bit less, the Ram 1500 also a bit less (to use the most direct comparisons I have) and most every vehicle with ABS that I've driven has behaved similarly.
One exception that comes to mind was when descending a steep, loose shale hill in a Range Rover. Its ABS effectively prevented slowing down as it refused to let the tires lock up, which was the only way to actually stop. It was a definite "oh crap" moment, one which thankfully ended well, mostly due to luck.

Anyway, knowing full well what ABS is and what it's supposed to do, I'd like to know why this Golf's ABS makes its brakes practically useless on packed snow.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to find, and pull, the ABS fuse soon. Then measure the stopping distance from a given speed with and without ABS.
With this car, it won't be a small difference.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

http://youtu.be/iXjzYbpt9Ow

Look at the difference between CRV with snows and stock all-seasons 

It is what it is. It's about tire traction which you don't have much of on the stock all-seasons 


Packed snow, it's also like ice, nothing for the tread to dig into, unlike fresh powder


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Sorry if I didn't clarify it, but the stock tires and wheels came off as soon as the new tires and wheels arrived - which was within 240 miles on the odo.
Not the the new tires are necessarily any better on snow.
Still, it comes down to traction as you point out. What I fail to understand is why the traction is surprisingly good in one direction (two actually, forwards and laterally) but nearly non existent in "reverse". As in stopping.
These aren't directional tires, by the way.
It sure seems to me that the tires indeed provide decent traction, but the ABS prevents the vehicle from slowing down much.

Again, testing with and without ABS, as well as down shifting instead of using the brakes, will be very telling. 

And also again, why doesn't the other ABS equipped vehicles behave as poorly as this Golf?

It would certainly be fun to try snow tires, and my guess is that all three (acceleration, cornering, and stopping) would improve noticeably. But, they would do so by a percentage, leaving deceleration still lacking in comparison. 

Please remember that even my '71 MGB stops far better than the Golf on these same surfaces. What's different between the two? That the Golf has much, much better tires...and ABS.

Up until maybe five years ago I was a firm believer in "When in doubt, throttle out". Maybe it's a sign of getting old when I now expect a modern car to be able to stop instead of relying on the gas pedal to save my butt?


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

does the MGB weigh 3300 lbs? Probably not. You have the mass of the car to stop also, which influence how fast it will brake as well.


If you can find a way to add 1300 lbs to the MGB, then go try again.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

There is indeed a weight discrepancy between the Golf and the MGB, and obviously in the MGB's favor.
That doesn't explain why the Ram 1500 stops so much better than the Golf, with the Ram weighing quite a bit more.
Nor does it explain why the Macan, which also outweighs the Golf, stops so much better.
Do I need to take the Peterbilt and an empty trailer out on the road for a comparison run, too? It would outweigh the Golf by nearly 10 times.

Yes, I understand that people on this forum like VWs, but to try blaming this Golf's poorly performing ABS on _anything_ but its braking system is going a bit too far, I think.
Have we become so politically correct that the other vehicles perform better because (insert reason here) and there can't possibly be anything wrong with our beloved VW? I hope not.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

Can't stop said:


> There is indeed a weight discrepancy between the Golf and the MGB, and obviously in the MGB's favor.
> That doesn't explain why the Ram 1500 stops so much better than the Golf, with the Ram weighing quite a bit more.
> Nor does it explain why the Macan, which also outweighs the Golf, stops so much better.
> Do I need to take the Peterbilt and an empty trailer out on the road for a comparison run, too? It would outweigh the Golf by nearly 10 times.
> ...


Time to sell the Golf R, because there is too many variables involved, including tires between the glorified AUdi Q5 and the Dodge Ram 1500.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Yep, as mentioned in my first post, it'll likely be for sale really soon.

There are indeed several variables (not that it matters here, but one difference between a Q5 and a Macan Turbo is 128 hp) and I suppose that I should apologize for not having access to identical vehicles for a comparison. Or ones more to your liking.
But if "glorified" is somehow relevant here, perhaps I should rephrase the original question and ask why my glorified GTI's ABS isn't working right?

I do appreciate the ONE helpful answer, but I'm not about to switch brake fluid even if it could lessen the problem.
I was hoping to be able to figure out the issue through analytical troubleshooting and test drives instead.


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## xpystchrisx (Sep 27, 2009)

Have you tried going to the dealer or taking some video so we can visualize what is happening? Often times that helps more than written description. A large amount can be lost in translation.


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## Can't stop (Dec 20, 2015)

Thanks for the suggestions!

I did call the dealer as soon as I found the brake issue, but in normal fashion - and understandably so - the reply was "Bring it in and we'll look at it."
There are two problems with that approach. One is that where the dealer is located, not exactly locally, there's no snow.
The other is that I have no easy way to get the Golf to them. It'd be in an enclosed trailer as I won't drive it on salted or slushy roads. Or wet ones, for that matter.

I have no simple way to get a video of it, but hope that the incoming snow storm will cover the roads nicely again, allowing me to find the difference in stopping distances between ABS, no ABS, and downshifting. At least I think that performing that test should be somewhat enlightening by eliminating several variables.
Of course, first I have to figure out how to defeat the ABS.


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