# Need help sourcing adjustable sway bar endlinks.



## 96AAAjetta (Jul 7, 2008)

Like the title says, I'm trying to source some adjustable front and rear sway bar endlinks for an 02 225. Haven't had much luck. And before anyone suggests it, I absolutely will not purchase anything from Gruvenparts. Thanks in advance for your help.:beer:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

96AAAjetta said:


> And before anyone suggests it, I absolutely will not purchase anything from Gruvenparts


:laugh:


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## EuroSpic_TT (Apr 24, 2012)

rear- http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-TT_MKI-Quattro-225HP/Suspension/Sway_Bar/ES2497385/


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

What do you think Josh, should I make you the test mule on a set? opcorn:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What do you think Josh, should I make you the test mule on a set? opcorn:


Do it you won't! (Hoping you fall into the easily convinced category). Ill be needing new end links too. So hurry and make them!!!!


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## 96AAAjetta (Jul 7, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What do you think Josh, should I make you the test mule on a set? opcorn:


I would venture to say absolutely. I'm a huge fan of everything that has come out of MadMax Labs thus far. My DV, both sets of rear control arms, and even the suggested specs for my alignment have performed flawless, and I have no reason to believe that a set of MadMax end links would be anything short of AMAZING!!! :beer: to you sir.




EuroSpic_TT said:


> rear- http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-TT_MKI-Quattro-225HP/Suspension/Sway_Bar/ES2497385/


Sorry sir. I appreciate the link, but those are most deff from Gruven, and are not for me.


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## 96AAAjetta (Jul 7, 2008)

For the curious:
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-TT_MKI-Quattro-225HP/Suspension/Sway_Bar/ES5475/
These are what they're going on


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## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What do you think Josh, should I make you the test mule on a set? opcorn:


I'd take a set too


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Out of curiosity why do you feel like you need adjustable links?

Or why would someone purchase adjustable links?

I run both front & rear H&R bars with stock links and no problems to my knowledge.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

DougLoBue said:


> Out of curiosity why do you feel like you need adjustable links?
> 
> Or why would someone purchase adjustable links?
> 
> I run both front & rear H&R bars with stock links and no problems to my knowledge.




To help corner balancing the last little bit of the suspension loading.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Because I like wasting money and buying parts I don't need and because max is making them. Duh :laugh:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> To help corner balancing the last little bit of the suspension loading.


Correct answer: to remove preload once the height at each corner is adjust to achieve weight balance. WINNER! 



PLAYED TT said:


> Because I like wasting money and buying parts I don't need and because max is making them. Duh :laugh:


Correct answer to most of this forum: ALSO WINNER! 

Best answer: Delete front swaybar and adjust spring rate to achieve desired performance. TRIPLE WINNER!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DougLoBue said:


> Out of curiosity why do you feel like you need adjustable links?
> 
> Or why would someone purchase adjustable links?
> 
> I run both front & rear H&R bars with stock links and no problems to my knowledge.


At stock height, there is absolutely no need for them!!! and that's because the drop links length is measured to bolt the swaybars with zero preload or binding. Now once we decide to go fancy and lower the car (even a slight amount), the shock-bar distance is no longer the same, and mounting the bar creates odd angles on the link's pivots that gives preload/binding. Not a huge deal, but now you have swaybars with different rates left to right (this makes the handling unpredictable if pushing it). In some cases, the car is dropped so much that the stock links can't even bolt up, so that's where the necessity for adjustable links arise.



[email protected] said:


> To help corner balancing the last little bit of the suspension loading.


That's 100% correct



PLAYED TT said:


> Because I like wasting money and buying parts I don't need and because max is making them. Duh :laugh:


That too! 

I'm going to take measurements on Saturday (my car is at Doug's house) and order material to make a couple ASAP.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> At stock height, there is absolutely no need for them!!! and that's because the drop links length is measured to bolt the swaybars with zero preload or binding. Now once we decide to go fancy and lower the car (even a slight amount), the shock-bar distance is no longer the same, and mounting the bar creates odd angles on the link's pivots that gives preload/binding.


So I could actually benefit from them:what:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Max conveniently ignored the triple winning answer. :laugh::beer:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

20v master said:


> Max conveniently ignored the triple winning answer. :laugh::beer:


I guess bagged guys are smart for removing their sway bars for more low :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Best answer: Delete front swaybar and adjust spring rate to achieve desired performance. TRIPLE WINNER!


Best best answer: Run a bar with reduced rate (compared to stock) and adjust spring rate to achieve desired wheel rate and Natural Frequency.

[Reason for that is: without any bar in the front of our platform and a steering ratio that needs some Cialis, you loose too much response in sharp transitions. There is also the problem of the McCrapson design, where there is an amount of Natural Frequency that it will allow before completely skipping over bumps and deeps. I doubt that you can bump the front spring rate enough to *ideally* make up for zero front bar. Trust me, I tried! 700 lbs springs is as far as I'd venture in the front (and that's pushing it for bumpy surfaces), but that's nowhere enough to restore ideal steering feel or roll stiffness without the help of a bar. It can definitely be done in the back though without any penalty.] :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Best best answer: Run a bar with reduced rate (compared to stock) and adjust spring rate to achieve desired wheel rate and Natural Frequency.
> 
> [Reason for that is: without any bar in the front of our platform and a steering ratio that needs some Cialis, you loose too much response in sharp transitions. There is also the problem of the McCrapson design, where there is an amount of Natural Frequency that it will allow before completely skipping over bumps and deeps. I doubt that you can bump the front spring rate enough to *ideally* make up for zero front bar. Trust me, I tried! 700 lbs springs is as far as I'd venture in the front (and that's pushing it for bumpy surfaces), but that's nowhere enough to restore ideal steering feel or roll stiffness without the help of a bar. It can definitely be done in the back though without any penalty.] :beer:


Can you expand on that? How can you have less steering response by removing the independent limiting factor, and have the same comparable wheel rate? That imples that the sway bar strengthens/reinforces the steering rack and spindles. I'm going to assume the 315's have and your caster have something to do with this. Any news on the trial upgrades?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

PLAYED TT said:


> So I could actually benefit from them:what:


 Like republicans need votes nowadays!



20v master said:


> Max conveniently ignored the triple winning answer. :laugh::beer:


Spoke too soon!:laugh:


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm going to take measurements on Saturday (my car is at Doug's house) and order material to make a couple ASAP.



I have an extra rear sway bar link. I think I dumped it out of that huge bucket of bolts I have.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Can you expand on that? How can you have less steering response by removing the independent limiting factor, and have the same comparable wheel rate? That imples that the sway bar strengthens/reinforces the steering rack and spindles. I'm going to assume the 315's have and your caster have something to do with this. Any news on the trial upgrades?


Sure, that's the kind of conversation I love to have! 

Steering response and feel, although totally based on different things make up the overall balance and quickness in transitions. (response being a factor of steering ratio, and feel being a broader term that incorporates steering ratio, bushing stiffness, sidewall stiffness, *swaybar size* etc.) 

With that explained, without a bar you loose some sharpness in transition (realize I keep on saying transition and never mention steady state cornering). Yes, there is less independence, maybe less grip if that means falling out of the camber curve sweet spot, but overall not having that roll stiffness that the bar allows is detrimental. If the car is rolling too much, driver will have less confidence and ability to have speedy transitional inputs; if the car is too stiff in Natural Frequency, as it would become if you bump the spring rate high enough to make up for the deleted bar, it will loose grip over bumps. So, for the whole package, we still need some bar to avoid some numbness in transitional phases. 

It's not that the bar strengthens the rack or spindles, it's more like having the bar helps load the front end quicker, up to a point ( too fast load transfers could become a bad thing if your overloading and overheating outer edge of the tires. That's one of many reasons more bar isn't necessarily better). Simply put, it's the same principle as the Defcons, they don't alter the steering, nor the geometry, nor stiffness of the suspension, but by allowing faster load transfer without the deflection, they considerably sharpen the steering feel.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Spoiler Alert

Alright guys, I just got some inside info that our great crew and forum sponsor at Verdict Motorsports were just about to release adjustable links. These guys are not only my partners, but more importantly fellow enthusiasts that care and know what they're doing. I will backtrack off of the project and recommend anyone to go with these. Good design that I reviewed, very competitive pricing, and at the same helping people that help us as a community! Phil or Noah will come in with official release and pricing.

(Maybe we can get a group buy going because I want a set too!) :thumbup::thumbup:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> (Maybe we can get a group buy going because I want a set too!) :thumbup::thumbup:


:thumbup:


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## 96AAAjetta (Jul 7, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> (Maybe we can get a group buy going because I want a set too!) :thumbup::thumbup:


Me three


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Spoiler Alert
> 
> Alright guys, I just got some inside info that our great crew and forum sponsor at Verdict Motorsports were just about to release adjustable links. These guys are not only my partners, but more importantly fellow enthusiasts that care and know what they're doing. I will backtrack off of the project and recommend anyone to go with these. Good design that I reviewed, very competitive pricing, and at the same helping people that help us as a community! Phil or Noah will come in with official release and pricing.
> 
> (Maybe we can get a group buy going because I want a set too!) :thumbup::thumbup:





PLAYED TT said:


> :thumbup:





96AAAjetta said:


> Me three


Our prototype links are finished and are making their way onto two cars that will undergo testing. We went with a new and improved sealed joint for these. As a lot of you may know we're not fond of heim joints for street applications. Our intent is to be able to offer a single component that will work for all applications whether it be street or race. Once we can confirm durability, longevity and fitment for the lowest of low as well as the more modestly lowered cars we'll put our name on it. 

As Max mentioned we're happy to put together a group buy when the time comes. 

Thanks for the added support and here's to 2013's product growth! :beer: 

http://www.verdictmotorsports.com/product_p/0034.htm


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Awesome! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## 96AAAjetta (Jul 7, 2008)

Good, very good.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> As Max mentioned we're happy to put together a group buy when the time comes.


:heart:


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

Oh man, I so need a set of these. My end links hate me because of the lowness. They pretty much have to get changed yearly so this will be a welcome product.

Will there be instructions on properly adjusting them? I've only ever installed them when they were at an awkward angle so I don't really know how they're supposed to be setup.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Neb said:


> Oh man, I so need a set of these. My end links hate me because of the lowness. They pretty much have to get changed yearly so this will be a welcome product.
> 
> Will there be instructions on properly adjusting them? I've only ever installed them when they were at an awkward angle so I don't really know how they're supposed to be setup.


The best way is to jack the car up, then lower it on 4 ramps. If you can ballast your weight on the driver seat (have someone sitting behind the wheel to simulate your weight), it is a good practice. Then with the clearance created with the car resting on the ramps, crawl under there and install the links with zero preload on them. Make sure they are going through the swaybar holes without any angle or biding on the short pivot bolt. This guarantees that there's no static preload from the bars and that you'll get evenly distributed dynamic forces when going down the road. :beer:

Shameless plug: I also have something in the pipeline that will be a game changer for you guys that go real low (Ben and James won't be able to get picked on anymore in the handling and suspension geometry department )


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Shameless plug: I also have something in the pipeline that will be a game changer for you guys that go real low (Ben and James won't be able to get picked on anymore in the handling and suspension geometry department )


 I'm sure this excites Ben just as much as it excites me! Now only if I knew what it was :sly::laugh:


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

PLAYED TT said:


> I'm sure this excites Ben just as much as it excites me! Now only if I knew what it was :sly::laugh:


A better rear setup so it's an even lowness?


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Neb said:


> A better rear setup so it's an even lowness?


 I just assumed TT's will forever have rake and/or not low in the front:laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

PLAYED TT said:


> I'm sure this excites Ben just as much as it excites me! Now only if I knew what it was :sly::laugh:


All that I can say is that it's a fix for the front geometry for when you're scraping dogbones, polishing subframes and cracking pans.  (PM coming to both of ya for details).



Neb said:


> A better rear setup so it's an even lowness?


No, it's going to be handling restoration for the front!



PLAYED TT said:


> I just assumed TT's will forever have rake and/or not low in the front:laugh:


How much lower can you go when you're already scraping stuff??? Soon you'll have the first subterranean vehicle if you keep chasing that goal :laugh:


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> All that I can say is that it's a fix for the front geometry for when you're scraping dogbones, polishing subframes and cracking pans.  (PM coming to both of ya for details).


Should I hold off on disassembling my balljoints, lol?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Late__Apex said:


> Should I hold off on disassembling my balljoints, lol?


Look at this timing! I just finished texting Ryan (brillianTT) and you were next to receive an email about what I'm cooking. Yeah, don't disassemble anything yet Steve, I could use you as a tester. Does classing allow you to do geometry alterations? I'm sending you my cell via PM so we can have faster communication. Shoot me a text when you get a minute!:beer:


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Does classing allow you to do geometry alterations?


SCCA is no penalty and NASA is a small classing issue which won't affect my situation.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> fHow much lower can you go when you're already scraping stuff??? Soon you'll have the first subterranean vehicle if you keep chasing that goal :laugh:


Found my new sig:laugh:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Shameless plug: I also have something in the pipeline that will be a game changer for you guys that go real low (Ben and James won't be able to get picked on anymore in the handling and suspension geometry department )


Doesn't matter, they don't care about handling. :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Doesn't matter, they don't care about handling. :laugh:


One will try and be amazed that there was hope, the rest will follow his lead!


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm waiting for someone to tell us to raise our cars 1"


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> I'm waiting for someone to tell us to raise our cars 1"


:laugh: Would solve some issues lol


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> :laugh: Would solve some issues lol


:laugh::laugh::laugh:
I cant wait to try and get in the garage at h20 this year! I think the wooden ramps are coming with!


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Shameless plug: I also have something in the pipeline that will be a game changer for you guys that go real low (Ben and James won't be able to get picked on anymore in the handling and suspension geometry department )


Glad I was in the loop on this one:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Keep the parts coming, and I'll keep sending my hard earned cash your way buddy:laugh:


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> I cant wait to try and get in the garage at h20 this year! I think the wooden ramps are coming with!


If you render your car anymore un-driveable you may just wake up to find your problems fixed and your roof line matching Noah's.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> If you render your car anymore un-driveable you may just wake up to find your problems fixed and your roof line matching Noah's.


:laugh:


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

20v master said:


> Doesn't matter, they don't care about handling. :laugh:


We care, just not as much as getting it low


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Neb said:


> We care, just not as much as getting it low


Precisely. And if we can be low and handle well then it's a win win!


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

A little teaser for everyone!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> A little teaser for everyone!


:thumbup:


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## 96AAAjetta (Jul 7, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> A little teaser for everyone!


Nice! 

Do you have a price point on the links yet? I need to know how many pennies I have to start saving.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

96AAAjetta said:


> Nice!
> 
> Do you have a price point on the links yet? I need to know how many pennies I have to start saving.



The pricing will be finalized after testing and production time studies. No first borns will need to be auctioned off, I can assure everyone!

Another teaser!


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> No first borns will need to be auctioned off


Good. I don't want to knock a slut up and wait 9 months for these :laugh:


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