# Clear coat peeling!? Oh no!



## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

Hi all,
Yesterday I noticed a spot on the rear passenger door of the 8 mo., 9,000 mile old T. Thought maybe it was a bird dropping or something - no such luck. Looked at it close and it is a thumbnail size spot where the clear coat has peeled off - blistering I think they called it. http://www.glasurit.com/Servic....html There is no evidence of any door ding or anything in that spot.
Did an archive search and found a bunch of stuff about white spots under the paint, but no actual paint peeling issues. I have noticed some of the blotches, but never really thought to much about them.
Anyone else had this issue yet? Maybe the bigger question is do the blotches turn into clear coat failure over time?
Already swung by the dealer and they photographed it and said that VWOA would have to approve and it could take a week or more and that they might want to inspect the vehicle before deciding. I'm not too worried, as this is clearly a paint warranty issue, but you never know.
Fix at a minimum is to strip the clear on that door and respray - ugh!
I don't know why I am not pissed and coming unglued and raging and being







, but I am strangely calm about this. Let's see how I get if VWOA even tries to deny this claim.
I'll try to grab a photo tomorrow.


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## StuHaul (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

TregDad,
My family has owned and operated an auto paint store in AZ for nearly 25 years now. Without having seen the spot, here's my advice on what you're dealing with.
First, your paint (and clearcoat is included in that term) should not be doing that. You are clearly at risk for corrosion, and VW should jump on this asap. If it's just the clearcoat that's doing it, then I believe it to be something other than blistering as defined in the very cool link you included. (Glasurit is high-end paint!) If the clearcoat is coming off without the color, you have an *adhesion* problem really, not a paint problem. In other words, if I'm correct to assume that it's clearcoat only, the paint that was applied to your car is fine, the preparation that occured before hand was somehow flawed. This is usually caused by the presence of silicone-based products (stuff like wax, grease, or even human sweat from a slight touch) that have made their way onto your cars surface. This almost certainly happened at the car's surface after the color was sprayed but before the clear, but could've been the result of contamination in the mixing process of the paint which made it to the surface when that paint was sprayed.
Here's how adhesion works in all car paint. There's 2 types. Mechanical adhesion refers to the paint shrinking itself like saran-wrap to the car's surface as the last amounts of solvent/reducer/thinner evaporate out of the paint, using the tiny grooves of sandpaper as claws that lock the paint on once it's dry. Chemical adhesion is adhesion between two products like primer and paint or between paint color and paint clearcoat In this type of bond, the paints are chemically matched to interact with each other on the molecular level and react in such a way as to alter the composition of each product so that each aspect of the paint (color, gloss, adhesion, and resistance to osmosis of any kind) are all improved. You're experiencing a failure of chemical adhesion most likely, and it's hard to definitively say why.
Do you have any idea if the paint is coming off/came off in a single piece or in flecks? Little flecks would indicate that it's contaminated paint because it's not adhereing to itself even. Any paint/primer should at least do that. But larger strips or pieces would indicate that it's adhereing to itself just fine, but not to the surface underneath. This is my guess, and my guess at the cause would be a contaminaton of the surface prior to the clear being sprayed. But at this point, the only reason to care about how the problem got there is to better determine the extent of your warranty claim to VW, and you can't know this until you know how big your problem really is.
Second - what to do? First look over and document the rest of the car. Take some time to see if this is occuring anywhere else. You refer to some blotches. Can you get pics of those? Where are they on the car? "Blotches" like that sound like contamination trapped under the clearcoat trying to get out. It is true that any material trapped in paint like that behaves like a lost soul in Dante's inferno. If goes as deep as it can and then bounces back up and out through the top. It's not uncommon fo this to take a long time (months), and in that time the paint cures, causing that bit of contamination to be trapped and lookign for a way out. Sometimes it will bust through the top, snd this may be what you have, but it normally manitests itself an finish that one day begins to show a bunch of pinholes.
Regardless, the contaminaiton could be local (like from a finger or handprint) or it could be universal (like someone else in the painting area using a spray-bottle of any number of cleaning products). If it's local, then the door must at least have all the color sanded off, re-sprayed, and re-cleared. Clear only will not do it, becuase the color underneath it has passed it's window of opportunity to acheve chemical adhesion with the clearcoat, and sanding the color to get mechanical adhesion would surely change the color, but even if you did this, there is NO PAINT SYSTEM that can acheive the same corrosion protection that can be had a the factory. That is why this is a *corrosion issue* and VW should realize that unless they nip this in the bud, the corrosion will spread as a certianly and you'll be knocking again one day with a more expensive fix than just a door. If the contamination is not local but rather universal and present throughout the car's surface or simply in several different places, you should probably pursue a new car via your warranty due to the fact that any re-painting done to your car, no matter who does it, is at a greater risk for short and long term corrosion than a factory job because of your problem and also because the contamination would then appear so rampant that you'd expect to see more problems even after corrective measures had been taken
Why at risk for corrosion specifically? Becauase anywhere the clearcoat is not on the car is like a torn seam in a raincoat that allows moisture to get through the other layers of paint and primer to get to the metal, and then you'll be blistering, not with bubbles of water but rather with bubbles of rust. Yuck.
But don't fret, I haven't even seen the pics yet and I'm giving you a diagnosis based on averages drawn of what situations are most prevalent from my own experience. Also, body shop people prey on the ingnorance of the general public. There is no magic fix to this corrosion issue, and anyone who tries to sell you one is not looking out for you.
Hope this helps. Apologies for the long and geeky post.
-Stu


_Modified by StuHaul at 1:13 AM 9-11-2004_


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## CaptainT-reg (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

WOW!! I"m not having any paint problems, but I sure learned a lot. 
Thanks for all the information.


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## 4x4s (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

I don't know about anyone else, but I _like_ long geeky posts that are informative as this one.
Thanks Stu!


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## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

Awesome answer Stu!
The blotches I mentioned are just like what others here have reported: Small white spots that at first look like water spots until you try to wipe them off and you realize they are under the paint. They have never really botherred or concerned me.
It appears to becoming off in small chunks - kind of like a peeling sunburn - ragged on the edges, some of it has come off completely and some is still on the car, but clearly unattached. You are correct that the underlying paint appears solid. For reference this is about the size of 3/4 of a thumbnail:


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## Jeff from Mass (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

Most excellent. I learned a lot, I especially like the info on mechanical vs. chemical adhesion.
My Advise is to TregDad is to bring it to Stu for warranty work.


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## StuHaul (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

Thanks for the friendly feedback!
TregDad, it sounds like these type of bubbles (is that an accurate description?) are throughout the car's surface. Is that correct? 3/4 of a thumbnail is a hell of a big flake as far as auto paint is concerned, so I think we can positively say that the contamination wasn't in the paint because the paint is sticking to itself better than it sticks to the color underneath it (in that area of the car, I mean). This means that something prevented the clear and the color from acheiving the chemical adhesion that it was designed to have. If you were able to say that you were pulling off clearcoat in pieces the size of bacon strips, then I'd say that someone used the wrong clearcoat or they used the worng reducer or catalyst in the correct clearcoat. But that's not what yours is doing. Your clearcoat problems imply something like the presence of a contaminant in the painting environment that came into contact with the car in a copule different spots. In other words, your entire surface isn't contaminated, just a few areas of it. Indeed, your car has mostly terrific color-to-clear adhesion, right? But in car paint, mostly doesn't cut it, and so I suggest you strongly pursue a warranty claim to get brand-new body parts from the *factory*. Even the best painter in the world can't acheive the same corrosion resistance that an OEM factory can. Your current car is quite the exception to this rule. Indeed, that's why VW can offer the kind of corrosion warranty that they do. If i'm you, I pursue getting any part (e.g., a door, a hood, a bumper cover, etc) that has such a spot on it replaced with a *brand new* part. If they argue, write down what they say because future blemishes that arrive will enable you to make liars out of them in the future. I hate to say this, but pursuing a new door vs a new car is comepletely a function of where these spots have shown up.
Can a body shop make the spot go away and make it look like new? Yes, but the owner of that car in 10 years will experience a bite-back for sure. That is why it's imperative that you treat this as corrosion as far as a warranty claim goes, and not a paint issue. It is a fact that some corrosion, at the tiniest level, has already occured, and rust is like a snowball rolling down a hill. It will rear it's ugly head again one day and if you plan on owning it long enough to find out, then I'd suggest going after a new door/car.
Good luck! Post some more if the situation gets too hairy with the warranty people. or IM me if you get in a pinch with those folks.
-Stu


_Modified by StuHaul at 10:04 AM 9-11-2004_


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

Mr. StuHaul...whet have you bin hidin?...with 12 posts!!!
Great advice and great answers toTregDad.
Please assist all paint/blemish inquiries...we had some discusssion weeks ago on "blotchy silver". I wonder if you can be a geek again







search the thread and post the answers.

Thanks,
Cy


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## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StuHaul* »_Thanks for the friendly feedback!
TregDad, it sounds like these type of bubbles (is that an accurate description?) are throughout the car's surface. Is that correct? 
_Modified by StuHaul at 10:04 AM 9-11-2004_

No, I have noticed them mostly on the other rear passenger door, not even on this one. Those have appeared to be what others have posted about and VW has claimed to be trapped moisture under the clear coat. VW recommends a heat gun on those to evaporate the moisture and it sounded like that has done the trick. Mine were so small I barely even noticed them until this forum prompted me to do so and even at that haven't considered them to be an issue - cosmetically speaking anyway.
This one was just out of the blue (so to speak!) I would have never guessed it to happen and can't recall noticing any other spots in that area.
Your comments about the corrosion vis-a-vis the warranty are good and are probably quite accurate, but don't seem realistic. I doubt there is anyway that VW would replace the entire car due to one spot, and I don't see how replacing the entire door, which would still get painted at the same body shop as the existing door, would be any additional value. Maybe I am missing something?
I'm following you and guessing that this is some isolated, local contaminant on the base coat, e.g. a fingerprint or whatever. I still don't see how trapped moisture can be ruled out as a cause and if that is the case, maybe those white spots that people have reported should be of greater concern.
I am going to take it to my own body shop that I greatly respect and has done great work on many of my other cars and have them document any abnormalities that they may find - that is good advice. I don't feel qualified to try to do it myself. I think I can also have them do the repair work. I'll take it in next week and see what I can get in terms of an estimate.


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## Uriah (Nov 2, 2003)

I have these white blotches on my hood (which is black).
Kind of reminds me of Monica's dress - so to speak.
Uri


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## jack oconnor (Oct 23, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

I once visited the Hattaras Yacht plant in High Point NC and they were having a prob, Three 50 foot yachts with Imron paint jobs were "fish eyed" and had to be completely refinished , only to "fish eye" a 2nd time. They finally found the prob was a new maintaince man was spraying silicone on the machinery and tools , and the ventilation system was picking it up and spreading it into the paint room. They naturally banned any and all silicone sprays from the entire place.
Just shows things you would never suspect can have crazy effects.
I too thank you for the very informative post.


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## 12johnny (Oct 28, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StuHaul* »_ Your posts 

Thanks for your info!! It's good to know more about "how things work"...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AZBob (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TregDad* »_
Your comments about the corrosion vis-a-vis the warranty are good and are probably quite accurate, but don't seem realistic. I doubt there is anyway that VW would replace the entire car due to one spot, and I don't see how replacing the entire door, which would still get painted at the same body shop as the existing door, would be any additional value. Maybe I am missing something?


He means you should get a new, already-painted door shipped to the dealership here, from Germany.
And oh yeah, dude, what's the name of your store? We're in the same place and in case anyone I know asks for someone who knows paint, I can then recommend you with full confidence. Also, do you recommend any body shops in the area? I need to have the front fascia and hood of my Corvette repainted one of these days and would like a good recommendation because the place that fixed it after the accident I had, sucked (it's got a big white stripe going down the middle, and it's not straight as it goes over the fascia/bumper cover).



_Modified by AZBob at 12:22 AM 9-12-2004_


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## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (AZBob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AZBob* »_
He means you should get a new, already-painted door shipped to the dealership here, from Germany.


I didn't think they did that . . . do they? I mean they paint the whole body together when it is manufactured . . . why would they have prepainted pieces? I would think you would get a better match in a body shop.
Hey VW, got some extra Shadow Blue doors laying around?
It still sounds like an extremely expensive way to fix to what appears to be a minor problem. Guess I am not as intense about some of this stuff as others. Maybe I should be . . .


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## jack oconnor (Oct 23, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

I wonder how it would match,I know all that stuff is supposed to be computer controlled{ like my 1st v-10 was computer destroyed}, But I really think there is a lot of variation. I sweare my new car has more metalic stuff and is shinner than my 1st one.


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## Phagus (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

just a small note.
usually, a repaint job includes neighboring panels (both doors in your case) to achieve a proper color blend.
do not forget that VW/Audi (and BMW and MB nowdays) use zink plating against corrosion. so, as long as there is no damage done to the metal, you panels are as protected as from the factory.


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## StuHaul (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

TregDad,
Yeah, I think you should try to get a new door from the factory. I believe that the doors are painted separately from the car from the day they're born, and even if they weren't, then they are most assuredly available as replacement parts. As far as the color goes, as I said in another paint-geek post in the thread about the blotchy silver, metallics are somewhat tougher to match than a solid color regardless. I believe that your best chance for a match is an original part from VW. Here's why: They tell you at paint school that there are 3 parts to doing a repair/repaint to fool the eye of an onlooker. (1) color (2) gloss (3) texture. When the painter can match 2 of these 3, he is usually successful in fooling the eye of an onlooker. The problem with body shops is that often their repairs are better than the factory job (in terms of appearance I mean). I mean that they sometimes have better gloss and texture than the original job and a contrast is evident. This is less likely with an OEM part becuase they will both math the color from a specific formula (i strongly disagree with any painter who deviates from a paint code's formula, for reasons too long to explain here), but the OEM part has a better shot maybe at matching gloss and texture.
Glad to hear that the contamination appears isolated. I apologize if I seemed to rule out the moisture - I only meant to rule out that moisture under the clearcoat is normal and OK. It's definately not!! I think your idea to take it to a body shop is a good one, if only to better enable yourself to weigh your options. I'm sure he'll be willing to fix it, and I'm sure he'll do a good job if he ends up doing the work. My reservations for having a body shop perform the fix are the following: 1)- it'll be out of pocket money from you instead of warranty money from VW and 2) it is impossible as a rule for any body shop, regardless of talent, to acheive the same corrosion protection that they can at the factory. Your painter sounds like a good one, but the painter's talent can't affect 1 or 2.

I believe the paint's first job is to protect against corrosion. That's why they paint cars - to protect them! It is true that if they managed to avoid sanding through to the metal, then the factory corrosion protection is still "intact", but doing that is about as easy as sprinting with a glass of water without spilling a drop. And besides, TregDad's door is already in question due to contamination, and that puts the whole door, including the zinc layer, at a risk. Fact is, anyone who claims that they can match the corrosion protection of a factory part is either lying to you or to himself. I realize that your car currently is the exception to this rule of OEM protection, but it's a rule that is backed up by thousands upon thousands of examples that bear it out. Like i said in the other thread and other post, your car is corroding as we sit here. It may take years to manifest itself to the point that it's a problem, or it may take months. If I had to bet on it, I'd bet a million that you car will show rust before a blister/bubble-free car will... and I'd win, although it might take 15 years to win it. But I could also win by February. If you can tolerate it, by all means, it's your car and you should do (or not do) what you want with it. Taking it to the painter will be better than doing nothing, that's for sure. I'm just trying to give you good info with which to make a decision. I don't want to be the paint police, and I have no desire to bore folks with long posts that no one wants to read anyway. So with that, I've said my peace on it. Good luck TregDad! - feel free to IM me if you want to chat more about it.

AzBob,
Space Age Auto Paint (plug: http://www.spaceagepaint.com) on Country Club N. of Southern in Mesa is the place. We don't paint cars but we sell everything you might ever need to paint and fix them There's a ton of cool ish on display, too, if you want a fun way to kill 30 mins on a weekend (General Lee, Viper, Norton, Ducati, Ford Mk IV, etc). If you have any, little kids who like Hot Wheels LOVE it. As for recommending a body shop, I'll IM you...
-Stu


_Modified by StuHaul at 12:14 AM 9-12-2004_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

No offense but I think his chances of getting another door from Slovakia are ZERO. I would bet VW would buy the car back before they get another door shipped from Slovakia. Or somebody at VW would get a replacement door painted locally and LIE to you, telling you it was painted at the factory before they shipped one from the factory. 
I also believe that while the parts are not painted on the car, they are painted at the same time and sending a single door through the paint line would be tough for VW. I've got no proof of that though. Just a suspicion.
One other opinion, I think that he should let VW find a good local paint shop to fix the problem and that he will not have any issue with rust or corrosion on the spot. 


_Modified by spockcat at 8:46 AM 9-12-2004_


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## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (spockcat)*

Yeah, the dealer has already indicated that the "Warranty" fix is a local repaint. Good news is I get to choose my own shop, which actually makes me more confident. 
I'm with you I think it would be a cold day in you know where before VW would acutally send me a new door.


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## StuHaul (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (spockcat)*

I'm totally without expertise as to being able to comment VW's willingness to cough up replacement parts or their propensity (or lack therof) to lie, so I won't opine as to the likelyhood of actually getting a new door. But I know something of collision repair. Surely there are other situations (like big wrecks that total cars) that warrant (no pun intended) or rather necessitate a new OEM door. What if a good door falls off a cart or otherwise damaged irrepairably at the factory? I think for TregDad to be sent one of these wouldn't mean sending a single door through the spray booth, but rather just pulling one off the shelf. How many of these cars have they made? How many countries do they sell it in? VW can most assuredly get a door sent somewhere if they see a situation that merits it. And if they'd rather buy back the car, then I'd say "sold".
But back to the part thing - If I'm the VW boss, I make sure that those parts are sent out with paint becuase I'd rather control what brand of paint and whose color formula those parts are painted with. That gets me real control over color-match worldwide and I since I get a good deal on paint, I can make more money on a painted part by charging more / writing it off as a greater loss for it instead of giving that business to a painter. I also imagine that many of these new-door scenarios would have some kind of warranty, even if it's 90 days, and for that reason, again, if I'm King VW, then I wouldn't want to honor or back the work of a painter I don't know. Selling the part unpainted leaves more loose ends for them to tie up later and opens up more avenues for cutomer complaint. But companies do things I wouldn't do all the time. This is only what my experience elsewhere suggests to me. So I take no offense and don't want to give you one either.
I'm not saying that TregDad won't get a new piece, but I believe it's possible to be sent one. If it were me, I'd go after one thats for sure. The worst they can say is no. It's certainly within his rights to seek one, that is clear to me. And even if a new part isn't finished, it would definately come with the zinc coating that is a better start corrosion/adhesion-wise than any body shop could acheive on repainting the old door.
And again, any of the fixes mentioned in this thread are going to imporve TregDad's situation. He shouldn't lose a whole lot of sleep as long as he's doing something. My opinion is to go all out, and that may be overkill, but that's how I treat my stuff I guess. Again, good luck!
-Stu


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## StuHaul (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (StuHaul)*

Time to eat a little crow. After asking around this weekend, newly painted parts are pretty hard to come by. I stand by the fact that a zinc-primered factory part is better than a repainted one that has already had problems, but the bottom line is that I was wrong about being able to obtain finished OEM parts. Feel free to lower me one full peg on your board.
-Stu


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## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

I heard from VW today that they are warrantying the peeling clear coat on ou door. No new spare door shipped from slovakia, just a local repaint. Estimate for the work is $397. Work includes stripping the clear coat from the door, sanding the exposed area, spot touch up with color if needed, reclearing the door. All trim to be removed for the repaint. 3 days time needed.
Ugh, not fun, but I am surprisingly composed on the whole thing. Glad they are covering it.


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## TregDad (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

So the door on this was fixed satisfactorily. They used a spot finish process that worked quite nicely. That fix apparently only applies to vertical surfaces that aren't in direct sun. It is some kind of newly developed process and has a lifetime warranty.
Anyway, today, I am washing the vehicle, and noticed 3 dime size peels on the roof of the vehicle, 2 toward the front, one in the center of the roof behind the sun roof. Looks like another trip back to the dealer and the paint shop for new paint on the roof.
I'll post some pics if people care to see.


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## Ross08TouaregV8 (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

TregDad:
please post some pics..would like to see what I could be in for http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## TREGGUY (May 22, 2004)

*Re: Clear coat peeling!? Oh no! (TregDad)*

This has happened to me last summer. Both pass. side doors had a quarter size flake of clearcoat come off on the bottom corners. What is also weird is that the clearcoat on one of my factory wheels was flaking too.







They sent it to the shop of my choice the same day and I had it fixed perfectly and a new wheel in two days.







Great service, but not happy with what happened and the resale value. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif I am on my 5th airbag fault, and now they have no idea how to fix it I think. Harnesses were replaced twice, and the pods have been flased 4 thousand times. I got my dealer on my side and the GM of the dealership is pushing for buyback from VW for me. He said he would know next week. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## treg4574 (Apr 14, 2004)

Including Tregguy, this is 4 cases of this happening that I am aware of. All 4 of them were 2004 models.
Yeah, the clearcoat just peels off of the paint surface. If you stare at the paint underneath, it appears perfect, just no clearcoat.
A good local paint shop is the correct fix. They should also give you a lifetime warrenty on their work.
It appears that there was a contamination problem at the factory.
Hopefully it is/was contained to a particular 2004 run. Fingers-Crossed.


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