# Please Help with Camshaft Position Sensor



## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

I was driving down the freeway last week....dropped the car into 3rd to accelerate past some slow-poke. When I looked down my check engine light was on. There was also a noticable power loss in the lower RPM band range.

1996 VW Jetta 2.0 8V

16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal 
P0341 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

-I replaced the distributor (together with the CPS) but the code came right back...same issues. 
-Removed and cleaned grounds with my dremel
-Checked voltages at sensor connector and are reading +12V
-Checked timing belt and there are no missing teeth and the belt is still tight

Could I have slipped a tooth without breaking any teeth? Please help! Here is what the timing on my engine looks like currently:

Camshaft









Crank









Distributor









Flywheel









I'm not 100% sure about the flywheel marks, but then again, I DO have a 16V lightened flywheel...I'm not sure if the markings on the 16V flywheel are different. 

Help? Please?


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## Dana @ Ross-Tech (Sep 15, 2009)

Please post the Auto-Scan, or at least all of the data from the engine.

Remove the plastic cover that's bolted to the valve cover and align the cam sprocket -0- to the valve cover. I don't think it looks bad...but I don't use warped plastic guides.

Is the center of the distributor rotor aligned perfectly with the mark in the distributor housing? A photo with the camera closer to the block would show the mark. If the plastic cover was under the rotor..there would be a cutout for it.

I don't like the flywheel mark, It should be a "V" or -0- depending on the year. The tooth is a normal casting mark. I would pull # 1 spark plug and see where TDC actually is.


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

VCDS Version: Release 908.2
Data version: 20100326

Tuesday,27,July,2010,18:23:31:62764

Chassis Type: 1H - VW Golf/Vento III
Scan: 01 02 03 08 12 15 25 41 56

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Address 01: Engine Labels: 037-906-259.lbl
Part No: 037 906 259 
Component: MOTRONIC M5.9 HS V08 
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 00185 

1 Fault Found:
16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal 
P0341 - 35-00 - - 
Readiness: 0110 0101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6N0-909-60x-VW2.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 603 D
Component: AIRBAG VW2 V00 
Coding: 00068
Shop #: WSC 00066 

1 Fault Found:
00588 - Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N95) 
32-10 - Resistance too High - Intermittent

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

The crank mark at flywheel doesn't look right. The pointer should point to a very small dot not the rectangle shaped piece. Go forward and backward about an inch and look for the dot. It is very hard to see and I don’t see it in the picture. This dot is so small that sometimes rust fills the hole. Find the dot and take another picture. I’ll know it when I see it and the picture is a very good picture I do not see it. I have 2 16 valve engines and they have the same dot. Look closer for the dot. Good Luck


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> The crank mark at flywheel doesn't look right. The pointer should point to a very small dot not the rectangle shaped piece. Go forward and backward about an inch and look for the dot. It is very hard to see and I don’t see it in the picture. This dot is so small that sometimes rust fills the hole. Find the dot and take another picture. I’ll know it when I see it and the picture is a very good picture I do not see it. I have 2 16 valve engines and they have the same dot. Look closer for the dot. Good Luck


Yeah, I did some more investigation today and here's what I found:

On my 16V lightened flywheel, I could NOT find the TDC mark. I found the 6 degree BTDC mark. There's a large dot on the flywheel. I set the crank to this mark and stuck something in the #1 cylinder, turned it and it went up just slightly before it started to go down.

Here's the mark on my flywheel, notice the mark is close to the alignment rectangle and not the bolt:









Pulled out my old flywheel. Notice that the mark is right next to the bolt:









So, does my 16V flywheel just NOT have a TDC mark on it?

My next question is how come my crank doesn't look like it should according to Dan J Reed's timing belt and water pump DIY?

Here is what my crank looks like at 6 degrees BTDC:









And this is what Dan's looks like:









Why is it different?

When I set the crank to TDC, my cam and dizzy are not lined up to their proper marks. So, it appears that the crank slipped a few teeth on the belt. Now, how come my engine still starts and idles fine?

Lastly, is it common for the crank to jump a few teeth? My belt looks fine. Its still tight. No missing teeth. 

What do you think?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Okay the dot isn’t there for some reason my 16 valve engines have the dot. But my 16v are A2 body style. Your car is an A3 and is not suppose to have a 16v flywheel. I’d like to know how you got a 16v flywheel to work in an A3? As far as I know the output shaft of the trans is a different size is this a 16v trans too? That’s the only way I know of to put a A2 16v flywheel in an A3 trans and flywheel.
The dot you are looking at on old fly wheel is the dot you need or should have. But isn’t that a converter & fly wheel. Did you change this from an auto to a standard and use an A2 16v trans?
The ft crank gear can break and move a notch that’s why you always use the fly wheel end to line up the crank. The picture you have from Dan is from an A2 1.8 motor and you had to line the auxiliary drive gear up with the crank dot to dot (the blue line) to line up the distributor rotor. This was a hall unit in dist. and 4 notches one for every cly. The A3 is a cam sensor with 1 notch for top dead center of #1 cyl only.
At this point you have to put something in the spark plug hole and watch as you turn the crank till the piston is at top dead center. This is the only way to find top dead center of #1 cly. 
You can’t trust the flywheel mark because you changed it.
You can try to line the ft. up with the pulley on and the lower cover installed. There is a notch or should be. But I never trust the front crank marks.
You have to use the actual piston travel to get TDC.
Good Luck


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

When in doubt of flywheel use this.

Crank use keyway at 12 lined up with 6mm bolt hole to hex at 12.
Cam use what you have at 12 and 12

Distributor use the hash mark.

If harmonic and black plastic cover are on and verified not out of sync on rubber.
Use arrow on black plastic cover to notch on harmonic dampner.

This will rule out what ever flywheel you are using.

Jack


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> Okay the dot isn’t there for some reason my 16 valve engines have the dot. But my 16v are A2 body style. Your car is an A3 and is not suppose to have a 16v flywheel. I’d like to know how you got a 16v flywheel to work in an A3? As far as I know the output shaft of the trans is a different size is this a 16v trans too? That’s the only way I know of to put a A2 16v flywheel in an A3 trans and flywheel.
> The dot you are looking at on old fly wheel is the dot you need or should have. But isn’t that a converter & fly wheel. Did you change this from an auto to a standard and use an A2 16v trans?
> 
> At this point you have to put something in the spark plug hole and watch as you turn the crank till the piston is at top dead center. This is the only way to find top dead center of #1 cly.
> ...


It was originally a manual. I just "upgraded" to a 16V lightened flywheel from parts4vws.com. The only difference between the two (besides weight) is that the 16V is a dual pin, so I just got ordered a dual pin pressure plate to match. Here's the flywheel I purchased. And the pressure plate.

I put a rod in the cylinder when I was at the dot (6 degrees BTDC). Turned it barely to about where the mark would be on the old flywheel and the rod went up barely. So, I'm just assuming that the marks for the 16V engine are all for 6 degrees BTDC.

A few more questions:
1. Is it normal for my car to seemingly run fine when I'm off by 2 teeth? Starts fine. Idles fine. Etc.
2. How should I determine TDC? Just look at the old flywheel and match up about where the mark should be?

Thanks everyone so far for your help. This forum has been 100x more helpful than the Golf/Jetta III forum.


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## Dana @ Ross-Tech (Sep 15, 2009)

And one more comment... Make sure the key-way in the camshaft / sprocket didn't shear. I would say that's more common of the crank, as Stan mentioned, but it can happen at the Cam also.


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

Dana @ Ross-Tech said:


> And one more comment... Make sure the key-way in the camshaft / sprocket didn't shear. I would say that's more common of the crank, as Stan mentioned, but it can happen at the Cam also.


I can check the cam by just removing the bolt and checking the woodruff key, how do I check it on the crank? I thought that it was a stretch bolt and wasn't able to be removed?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Okay here goes more info. Yes if the belt is off or you have the cam code the car will normally run fine. A2 1.8 liter engine run on sequential injection all injectors fire at the same time not one at a time like multi port injection. A3 2.0 was the first multi port injection Jetta and it uses the camshaft sensor to signal the ECM position of #1 cyl. and it bases the firing sequence for multi port injection off that signal. If you loose the camshaft signal completely or the code sets because it’s off a tooth the ECM defaults the fuel injection to sequential injection based off the engine speed sensor only. No camshaft signal at all just like the A2 1.8 always ran. You may see a mileage differents but that’s about it and a check engine light. This car does not need a cam shaft signal to run, I tell people that all the time for no starts and they don’t believe me.

I clicked the link for the fly wheel and are you kidding me $1,500.00. What the hell do you really gain for that amount of money? That’s nuts!

Look first off put the lower timing cover on and then the crank pulley. Using both the piston travel and the front timing mark on the lower cover and pulley. Put the #1 cyl piston at top of its travel and see if the lower crank marks line up. If they do that’s the best TDC you’re going to get. If the piston travel and marks don’t line up then check the keyway of the crank sprocket as Dana suggested. Yes, you are supposed to change the bolt but nobody really does just tighten it real tight with an air impact gun. That’s what I’ve done for years. This engine is simple and even if the belt breaks you don’t bend valves, so be brave.

I really don’t think I have anything more to add piston travel alone should be enough for you to get the TDC right.
Good Luck
Stan


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> I clicked the link for the fly wheel and are you kidding me $1,500.00. What the hell do you really gain for that amount of money? That’s nuts!
> 
> Good Luck
> Stan


Well, I didn't pay $1500. They just changed the price to something ridiculous because the item is no longer available. I think I paid like $150. I installed those parts over 10 years ago.

Thanks for this info. I set the timing marks to the mark on the lower belt cover and I was not at TDC. I'll remove the crank bolt and see where my key-way is.

Hopefully I'll have an update soon.


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Ok some data.

I have flywheels cheap if anyone needs for ABA. Used, new, light etc. No biggy.
It is not your issue.

The key-way's should all be checked.

However your code is not because of a cam correlation issue period. 
It is not monitored on cam even though it is written this way.
The distributor contains G40, the ecu doesn't need it to run. Uses this signal purely for additional timing correlation for performance. If faulty the ecu still has the ability to retard for knock from the G28 angle. Car will run with reduced output.

In some cases this code could be a faulty G40 ( Ignition distributor ) is highly unlikely.

The ecu only cares if it see's the G40 distributor Hash #1 zyl for correlation to the G28 engine speed @ 12.

You should break the tits on distributor that are locking you to one position. Then turn distributor while running loose slight until light extinguishes for the complete idiot that cant check/align marks.

Where a pair of gloves or use an insulated tool to rotate distributor so you don't get shocked.

You must at the very least make sure that the cam and crank are at 12 while the hash for #1 is on point at rotor.

Wrong depth distributor cap or incorrect rotor not displaying proper Resistance value may also get you this code. Rotor should display R1 marking on underside as per repair information.

Jack


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## volks_r_us (Dec 19, 2004)

I must deal with this code 300 times in my life 

2 possible causes :

1- incorrect belt or ignition distributor timing.

2- Faulty ignition distributor (replaced and sold at least 200)

Your timing mark on picture is not the correct one 

This is the notch you are after as the "0" mark. also there a Line "|" on the other side of the engine crank pulley the you can align with the line on the plastic timing belt cover

It is possible that you have the "0" notch and a Diamond mark. the Diamond is the "0" it's a Default 6 degrees timing mark not use with 2.0L you want you timing belt to be set a 0 degree.

Notice the 2 large notches. the "0" is always between those 2 close to the flywheel 9mm bolt









for the ignition distributor , Cut the pins the lock it between the 13 mm bolt so you can move it once the timing belt is in place. underneath the rotor the it a line | on the distributor this must be perfectly align with the rotor and normally should point to cylinder #1 

Set the timing belt then the distributor. you might need to fine tune the distributor a couple time. 
remember to always put the engine to top dead center before moving the distributor . This way you will know it's set perfectly 

Good luck


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

toasters said:


> Well, I didn't pay $1500. They just changed the price to something ridiculous because the item is no longer available. I think I paid like $150. I installed those parts over 10 years ago.
> 
> Thanks for this info. I set the timing marks to the mark on the lower belt cover and I was not at TDC. I'll remove the crank bolt and see where my key-way is.
> 
> Hopefully I'll have an update soon.


Update:

Good and Bad news.

The good? I finally know what's wrong with the car. Turns out Stan was right....my keyway on the crank gear sheared.










The bad?

It also messed up the key hole on the crankshaft:









So...is my engine toast? Is there enough material left on the crank to install a new crank gear?

What are my options?


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Your engine is not toasters!

Have a guy that actually knows how to weld, fill it fast, or you can use filler rod, then file it in car.
Buy a new gear and bolt.
Some have even used epoxy with success but it is not my choice.

Very easy, done many for people that didn't change the stretch bolt at crank.

You will also need the seal after applying heat.

200 distributor's is just way to may G40's diagnosed wrong.

Jack


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

vwemporium said:


> Your engine is not toasters!
> 
> Have a guy that actually knows how to weld, fill it fast, or you can use filler rod, then file it in car.
> Buy a new gear and bolt.
> ...


Ha! Thanks for the reply...this is good news! 

A friend told me that you shouldn't weld to a crank shaft because since the shaft is case hardened....heating it up will change its material properties, making it more brittle..

So, I'm scared to apply heat....looking into epoxy and other options.

What about press fitting a dowel pin in there? Bad idea?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

First off Dana was right also. I told you they move and you can’t trust the ft. mark, Dana told you why.
I’d get a new sprocket clean both ends with sand paper and use a steel epoxy. I’d also drill to holes perfect size! Right thru the sprocket and crank and bang in 2 dowel pins. Then tighten the **** out of the bolt. The outer pulley would stop the dowel pins from coming out also. 
You motor is good but the crank is broken only option you got is to rig it!
Good news is I’ve seen this a lot and never actually change anything. I just always line up the belt at the flywheel end and they run fine. I guess once they slip they just stay there, I have seen many front marks be off and I’ve never touch them. You need it right because you have no flywheel mark to line the belt up. So rig it and get the belt in time from the front mark.
Good Luck


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Well if you weld fast and cool it with oil it should be fine.

I have done many helping people with no issue.

At this point what is there to lose anyway?

Jack


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

vwemporium said:


> Well if you weld fast and cool it with oil it should be fine.
> 
> I have done many helping people with no issue.
> 
> ...


So, I ended up using this DIY to repair the crank:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1598023

My problem now? I can't freaking get the new crank bolt torqued down. I have it down to 66 lb-ft, but I'm not getting the "+1/4" turn...my strap wrench isn't capable of holding it.

Does anyone have a solution to tighten the bolt that does not require welding a bracket together?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

You are not going to like the sound of this one...... Get motor at TDC #1 cyl. pull the spark plug turn the crank backwards get the piston down about half way (both valve closed) and feed a lot of cloth rope down the spark plug hole and fill as much of the cyl as you can. Then tighten the bolt in the crank. The rope will fill the cyl and not damage anything but not allow the piston to go up to TDC so the motor can't turn. Takes a lot of balls but I've done it. Good Luck


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## Dana @ Ross-Tech (Sep 15, 2009)

How about putting the car in gear with all of the wheels on the ground, and cut the steering wheel to the right so the 19mm bolt can be accessed with an extension. Now the critical thing is that it's a manual trans, so it must be in gear and someone who is capable of holding the brake (without vacuum assist, no sissies) must hold the car from rolling so the crank doesn't turn as you torque it.

Make sure you use the parking brake and a wheel chalk as a backup so you don't run yourself or any toolboxes over if a brake line blows.

Don't try to shortcut by doing this in the air without wheels because the rotor screws will just break off and defeat the whole thing when the axles turn.


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> You are not going to like the sound of this one...... Get motor at TDC #1 cyl. pull the spark plug turn the crank backwards get the piston down about half way (both valve closed) and feed a lot of cloth rope down the spark plug hole and fill as much of the cyl as you can. Then tighten the bolt in the crank. The rope will fill the cyl and not damage anything but not allow the piston to go up to TDC so the motor can't turn. Takes a lot of balls but I've done it. Good Luck


Man, I don't think I have the balls to try this...I'm gonna try what Dana suggested and then use this as a second option. Thanks everyone for your suggestions...my car is almost better!


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Dana has the best idea. I knew you wouldn't like my idea. But it works as long as you get the valves closed and once tightened back the piston down and you pull the rope right out. I am still laughing!!! No balls no glory...LOL I'll bet even Dana is is scratching her head on that one too. On small engines like lawn mower and motor cycles is where I learned this trick. I have done it 2 or 3 times on cars and it does work but you do what you think best. I am still laughing... Good Luck. What do you do in an automatic trans?


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> Dana has the best idea. I knew you wouldn't like my idea. But it works as long as you get the valves closed and once tightened back the piston down and you pull the rope right out. I am still laughing!!! No balls no glory...LOL I'll bet even Dana is is scratching her head on that one too. On small engines like lawn mower and motor cycles is where I learned this trick. I have done it 2 or 3 times on cars and it does work but you do what you think best. I am still laughing... Good Luck. What do you do in an automatic trans?



Tried Dana's idea...its not working. I'm pretty sure there's slippage at the clutch cause the car's in gear and its not moving.

Debating whether I'm man enough to try Stan's idea...or up for making a bracket to hold it on place....ugh, why is this repair being such a pain in the ass?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Dude nobody is going to tell you to try my idea! And it takes balls to do it! No tech would ever agree with it. I also know you have no idea if I am a crack pot or a real tech. But I’ve been a tech for 25 some years been a V.W. & Audi tech only tech for about the past 8 yrs. I no longer work on anything else, except friends and family (they make me step outside of VAG cars). Cars now are way more complicated then they use to be and I can’t keep up with all makes so I only do VAG. If you put the #1 piston at TDC (just like you would for a timing belt) the piston is at top and the valves are closed. Remove #1 cly. spark plug stick a long screwdriver in the spark plug hole and feel the piston top. Turn the crank backwards while feeling the screw driver drop down. Get the piston down at least ½ its stroke 2/3 is better. Pull the screw driver out and feed cloth rope down the spark plug hole (spin the rope as you do it because you want it to coil like a snake on top of the piston) you may also need a pick to help feed the rope in the hole its small. Thin rope helps. Feed in a lot, the more the better at least 2 to 3 feet. Now turn the crank forward and you will feel it lock the crank up. Now try it and feel it if all is good tighten the bolt as tight as you wish. Once done turn the crank backwards and pull the rope out. You shouldn’t bend a connecting rod or break a piston and if the valves are close you won’t screw them up. It takes a lot of force to do damage. The right way is to remove the trans and put a flywheel holder in and tighten the bolt, but that’s a lot of work. I guess you could weld something but still a lot of work. I wouldn’t tell you to do this if I didn’t do it a few times myself, it will work just takes balls the size of church bells. Also this is a 1996 VW Jetta 2.0 8V it’s not an Audi A6 2.8 30V and it’s not a 30.000 dollar car. You make the call this sounds crazy but it’s what I would do. But no one on this site will ever recommend you do this. Even if you post back it worked, they still wouldn’t tell anybody to do it. You think about it…. Good Luck


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> Dana has the best idea. I knew you wouldn't like my idea. But it works as long as you get the valves closed and once tightened back the piston down and you pull the rope right out. I am still laughing!!! No balls no glory...LOL I'll bet even Dana is is scratching her head on that one too. On small engines like lawn mower and motor cycles is where I learned this trick. I have done it 2 or 3 times on cars and it does work but you do what you think best. I am still laughing... Good Luck. What do you do in an automatic trans?


Stan, your idea was crazy...and I was sure that it would damage my engine....but...

I didn't have the equipment to fabricate bracket, so I decided to grow a pair and give it a try. I ended up stuffing about 5 ft of nylon rope inside the cylinder...it ended up locking about 5 degrees BTDC, which I felt was ok.

It required so much torque that it blew my ratchet, I ended up getting an 18" breaker bar from Sears to finish the job.

I really can't believe it worked, but it did. Thanks so much for the suggestion. Now to put the cover back on and I'll be good to go!


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Well glad to see you got a big set. I do have to say your lucky because you used nylon rope. That can cause problems when trying to get the rope out. I told you cloth rope for a reason. And if anybody ever reads these posts please use cloth rope. I am glad it all worked out. I would also like to know what Dana and the other's think now that you actually did it and it worked like I said it would. Still even to this day if I have to do it it takes a big set... I would of love to have seen your face when the ratchet broke that had to blow your mind. Glad it's all good and good luck with the rest of it. Stan


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## Dana @ Ross-Tech (Sep 15, 2009)

Nice. I've heard of that when working on small engines, but I never actually did it. 

I would agree this ABA 2.0L should be indestructible, but I wouldn't try that on a 20V T (or anything with more than 2 valves and a chain cam tensioner) as Stan mentioned. 

I had a snap-on ratchet snap just last weekend when pulling a spark plug on a '00 AEG last weekend. It was due to rust from not using my tools on a regular basis since leaving the dealer, but quite a scare! I was simply tuning up and for that brief moment..thought I was pulling a head off on a Sunday afternoon.


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## toasters (Sep 17, 2001)

stan067 said:


> I do have to say your lucky because you used nylon rope. That can cause problems when trying to get the rope out. I told you cloth rope for a reason. And if anybody ever reads these posts please use cloth rope.


Well, actually, I don't know what kind of rope it was. I feel like an ass for not paying attention to that detail. I just used climbing rope. Probably about 8-10mm in diameter. What's the danger? just the fact that the rope could fuse to itself and not come out?

I finished putting the car together today. Put all the belts back on and drove it around. Works great! I'm so glad to have my car back....6 weeks later. I wasn't in a hurry...that's why it took so long.

Thanks again everyone for all your help! I hope this thread is useful for someone's search in the future.


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