# The FrankenTUNE project



## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

Hey all! Well it has come time, for someone to build a specific file, or files, for those of us who have the Hybrid K04s. There are a few of us who have been putting our heads and resources together trying to figure out what to do. 

Folks, I give you the collaborated efforts of Slappy Dunbar, Dave Donnely, and myself (donating a few gunea pigs with the Frankenturbo F4h-T)
How would you like to get a bolt on turbo kit, to include Software, specifically designed for your car, your list of mods, and even your driving conditions, such as climate, and elevation, that can produce in upwards of 275bhp, without compromising reliability, or your bank account?

The biggest problem with the hybrid is that there isn’t a program designed SPECIFICALLY for them!
So, when you get one, you try your hardest to get the most out of the turbo, by matching it up with software made for the hybrids "closest relative" if you will. 
I.E. 
REVO Stage 2 (which is actually designed for the K03s, or the K04-001 at best)
GIAC (which has a close but still not the best K04-02x software)
Uni's Stage 2+ (which again, is for the K04-02x turbo)
APR offers the Stage 1 and/or 2 (again, from what I understand, still for the K03/04-001)
So, as you can see, not one program offers a file (let alone multiple files) that will take full advantage of a hybrid K04, and your personal list of modifications.
Plus, for those of us who live at any sort of altitude, all the current programs lose even more "oomph". So as long as you’re at sea level, you get some great numbers, Air is thick, and the car can operate the way it was designed. (For the closest relative to your hybrid)
But even 1200-1500 feet, you start to lose power. What about those of us in CO that live between 5000 and 6000 feet. Imagine the power you lose, because of the thinner air.
I, just so happen to live at a whopping 7500 feet.
In performance tuning, one size does not fit all. Wide variations of aftermarket hardware from intercooler combinations, exhaust configurations, fuel injector selection, water/methanol injection systems, regional fuel and octane availability all combine to result in uncertainty and compromise in off the shelf tunes.
When it comes to the Hybrid turbo, specifically the Frankenturbo, they are very similar to the K03s, and of course the K04-023. And you get the best of both worlds, plus a little bonus. (MORE POWER) There is no loss in low end torque as compared to the stock K03s, yet these hybrids go far beyond standard K04's and can produce up to 275bhp on stock internals when properly supported.
So are you interested yet? Along the way of this thread build, Slappy, myself, and then the brains behind it all, Dave will be collecting data from the Transverse motors lots of data, from stock ECU/turbo, to Hybrid turbo using different software, then Hybrid with our own software.
And best yet. We will be working on different stage files for the Hybrids. Imagine this, 
Hybrid K04 stage 1, Hybrid K04 Stage 2, and Hybrid K04 Stage 2+. Maybe more.
We will be using a 2003 Jetta, a 2002 337 edition GTI to start, and pairing them with different injectors, different intercoolers, hardware, and different little bonus add ons, Water/Methanol, Rods, all kinds of stuff.
And the programs are going to be made with options to better tune them to altitude as well.
Thus getting the absolute most out of a hybrid K04. Making it a better option/alternative to your K03s, and/or even your K04-01, or K04-023. 

Be sure to subscribe to this Thread to be updated on our latest tests and data! And please, don’t be shy! Ask any questions you may have!


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## DBVeeDB (Aug 3, 2007)

i needed this about 1.5 years ago when my ko4-02x with hybrid wheel struggled to make power off my giac ko4 file. Good luck on the project,and hope you guys can succeed!


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## Zneith (Jan 4, 2010)

one.fast.gti said:


> Hey all! Well it has come time, for someone to build a specific file, or files, for those of us who have the Hybrid K04s. There are a few of us who have been putting our heads and resources together trying to figure out what to do.
> 
> Folks, I give you the collaborated efforts of Slappy Dunbar, Dave Donnely, and myself (donating a few gunea pigs with the Frankenturbo F4h-T)
> How would you like to get a bolt on turbo kit, to include Software, specifically designed for your car, your list of mods, and even your driving conditions, such as climate, and elevation, that can produce in upwards of 275bhp, without compromising reliability, or your bank account?
> ...


Subscribed as well:beer: Wish you guys goodluck on this, could be useful to many:thumbup:


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

If you guys need any help, just drop a PM.

Have fun :beer:


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

Got my eye on this as I'm at 160k miles on the original factory setup.

:thumbup:


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## punisher89 (Oct 11, 2002)

I really like the F/T kit but the lack of decent software is what bothers me about this. Hopefully by the time I've saved up and am ready for the kit the software will be done. 

:beer: For you.

opcorn: for me.


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks all for the support! We are all very excited to get started on this project! Dave at Motoza has been developing some software for the F4h-L on the B6 Audi A4 that has put down some serious power, and it has been rock solid. 

I know for one, that if the software issue was solved, TONS of people would be looking at the FrankenTurbo as more of an option. and of course the interest in this thread already, after a few hours of it being put up, just proves that point.

We will be posting our progress, logs, and lots more stuff to drool over!
We will also be working on the F23 turbo here soon, thus creating a "BT" option for the Transverse motor. But, one project at a time. And for now, lets get this one movin! Thanks for the support all!

Dont hesitate to post questions, comments, silly anicdotes.... etc. lol.


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## don jaime (Nov 1, 2007)

are you guys starting from scratch or tweaking existing files to work with hybrids?


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## Zneith (Jan 4, 2010)

one.fast.gti said:


> Thanks all for the support! We are all very excited to get started on this project! Dave at Motoza has been developing some software for the F4h-L on the B6 Audi A4 that has put down some serious power, and it has been rock solid.
> 
> I know for one, that if the software issue was solved, TONS of people would be looking at the FrankenTurbo as more of an option. and of course the interest in this thread already, after a few hours of it being put up, just proves that point.
> 
> ...


Are you guys personally developing a tune? Or are you compiling data for someone else to write?


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

Zneith said:


> Are you guys personally developing a tune? Or are you compiling data for someone else to write?


To answer the last two questions. We are a three man team as for right now:
Dave from Motoza Tuning is our software developer, 

Slappy Dunbar, is well, Slappy Dunbar, Creator, and developer of the FrankenTurbo F4h-L, F4h-T, F23for TT225/S3, and the F4 Bi-Turbo. 

Sean, is our Software Tester, and Provider of our Test vehicles. 

We are starting from scratch on our OWN files for the hybrid K04 turbos. 

And then to answer the last question, We are personally developing our own tune. compiling our own data to develop OUR OWN TUNE. its going to be a fun adventure.

Dave has already developed his own tune for the Longitudnal 1.8t Frankenturbo, and it is a solid tune, very powerful and very reliable. Now we are developing a tune for the Transverse motor.
:beer:


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## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Good luck guys! It's about time someone did this.


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

one.fast.gti said:


> To answer the last two questions. We are a three man team as for right now:
> Dave from Motoza Tuning is our software developer,
> 
> Slappy Dunbar, is well, Slappy Dunbar, Creator, and developer of the FrankenTurbo F4h-L, F4h-T, F23for TT225/S3, and the F4 Bi-Turbo.
> ...


To be honest, it I don't think it will be too difficult. The most time consuming part of it will be logging and editing maps accordingly but it shouldn't be too hard.

I have no idea why the big name companies haven't developed any tunes for the FrankenTurbo yet...

Any ideas of licensing yet? Its not going to be freeware correct?


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Good luck guys, I'm interested in this hybrid setup, emailed Slappy recently Ref my 18t Bug, and as I'm on the other side of the World file software was a big concern to me before parting with my hard earned cash on this turbo. Will watch with baited breath.

Regards Lenny


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

DJ Gonzo said:


> To be honest, it I don't think it will be too difficult. The most time consuming part of it will be logging and editing maps accordingly but it shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> I have no idea why the big name companies haven't developed any tunes for the FrankenTurbo yet...
> 
> Any ideas of licensing yet? Its not going to be freeware correct?


As far as licensing, yes we are going to be going that direction with it. What our goal is, is to offer this software, as an option for when you buy the turbo kit.

But then again, on the other hand, we are going to be pricing it much more competitively than say Uni's Stage 2+, GIAC's K04-23 file, etc. Dave at Motoza already has a stage 1, and 1+ file for say your stock turbos and such. He also has a Stage 2 file. 
What we are working on now, is a Stage 1,2,2+ for specifically the Hybrids. And then of course we will be going on to other types of files as well. (Big turbo etc)

As far as creating the files, no, wont be hard at all. You are correct. The hard part is of course is data logging, and then building a reliable file, a File that will give you the most bang for your buck, and of course, take full advantage of the hybrid turbos, a feat, that even the bigger companies havent decided to tackle. Why? Because I personally think, that they feel it is better to focus on stock and BT applications. For whatever reason they dont think that the hybrid K04 will yeild enough of a buyer market to make it worth their time. 
Unitronic took some interest in the origional MK1 Frankenturbo, but dropped their support when Slappy decided to make a few modifications that, to be honest, made the turbo not only more reliable, but much more powerful as well.
Their loss in the interest of this project, is our gain. Dave has been working with the longitudnal turbo, but now we are switching focus to the transverse market, as we believe there are many many 1.8t owners that are interested already, and many more that will be even more interested once there is the correct software for it.


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## guanatozridez (Jan 8, 2008)

this looks very interesting n will be def following since i prob will upgrading my turbo in the near future.

Good luck guys:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

That's awesome :thumbup:

I wish you guys luck. I wish I could afford a FrankenTurbo to play around with, but just have fun tuning & logging for me instead


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

Leaving for work bump/subscribe.


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## contiman (Jun 28, 2009)

awesome !


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## jsillars (Oct 3, 2006)

subscribed! thanks dudes!:thumbup:


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## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

ill let u know in a week or so how a revo stg 3 tune works with the frankenturbo F23, as i just got mine in today, will be doing a install this weekend, along with trying out his maf setup to see how that works out, :thumbup:


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## jennekke (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm curious what kind of numbers you're aiming for. Obviously > 250. I'll be keeping an eye on this as well... but I doubt without switching to a wideband setup I'll be able to do much better than I have now


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## meex (May 19, 2010)

Im Fabian From Argentina South America, I go for the FH4 T very soon, if I can help in something let me know.

I suscribe at this thread, i hope can participate.


meanwhile this is my car www.mkiv.com.ar

Salut!


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

jennekke said:


> I'm curious what kind of numbers you're aiming for. Obviously > 250. I'll be keeping an eye on this as well... but I doubt without switching to a wideband setup I'll be able to do much better than I have now


Thanks again for all of the support all! We began our journey today, had to de immobilize a few ECUs so we can have multiple stock ones to work with, since we will be working at different stages.

On a transverse FWD motor, things are more aggressive than the Longitudnal FWD. 
Stage 1 we will be looking at the following:
Hardware Requirements
Frankenturbo F4h-T or Hybrid K04 with:
Highflow exhaust manifold
386cc Injectors on a 3-3.5bar FPR
Silicone TIP with Cold air intake (short ram recommended)
2.5-3" Turbo back Exhaust with cat delete/highflow cat

Optional Hardware:
Upgraded DV
3" MAF housing with stock sensor

Numbers: Looking to put down 225-250 WHP/250+WTQ (torque will vary depending on how aggressive we go with boost etc.)


Stage 2:
Hardware requirements:
Same as stage 1 
Mandantory upgraded DV
Mandantory 3" MAF with stock sensor
Mandantory 386cc Injectors on 3-3.5bar FPR 

Recommended Hardware:
Upgraded MBC to run in parallel with N75
NGK BKR7E plugs gapped @ .028
Upgraded Intercooler, either side mount or FMIC
Upgraded intank or inline fuel pump

Power: between 250-275 WHP/up to 275WTQ

Stage 2+:
Frankenturbo F4h-T/ Hybrid K04
Highflow Exhaust manifold
2.5-3" Turbo Back Exhaust with cat delete or highflow cat
upgraded TIP with cold air intake
Upgraded DV
3" MAF using stock sensor
Upgraded Intercooler
386cc injectors on 4bar FPR OR
415cc or 440cc Injectors on a 3bar FPR
Upgraded fuel pump, intank/inline
NGK BKR7E Plugs gapped @ .028

Optional Hardware:
Upgraded MBC to run in parallel with N75
Water/Methanol Injection Kit
Stage 2+ can be tuned to run water/methanol as a constant variable, or can be tuned without it for "added" effect.

Power anticipated: 275+ WHP/300WTQ

Obviously all figures are just anticipated as of now. But may I remind you again that FrankenTurbo as of now has been able to pull 260 WHP+ out of the Longitudnal motor without our list of bolt ons. *These figures are of course just figures for now, abd are also and this list of hardware is also just a 1st draft* and probably on the conservative side, for now, however, definitely attainable


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

how far are you going to try and push stock injectors?
hybrid k03 of any worth power wise is going to need 380cc injectors and likely 80mm MAF housing off the 225's

having done a few of these over here.

Good luck with it..
regards
bill


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

badger5 said:


> how far are you going to try and push stock injectors?
> hybrid k03 of any worth power wise is going to need 380cc injectors and likely 80mm MAF housing off the 225's


Hey all, :wave:
Sorry I wrote the reply last night while half asleep. You are correct bill, The stock injectors wornt provide enough fuel to give us any power worth trying. As far as any of the stages go, the stock injectors wont provide near enough fuel. I will edit the above list as well. Stage one and up will need at least the 380s on a 3bar FPR. and as stated stage 2 and up we recommend a fuel pump upgrade to keep from starving a fuel hungry engine to death. (literally)


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I'd recommend a fuel pump upgrade for Stage 2. That and 3.5fpr.


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## jennekke (Jan 8, 2010)

The only contention I have with this is the crazy boost spike. I can't see software compensating enough for the crazy torque spike from this turbo. I don't want this turbo to be known for throwing rods *crosses fingers*. After stage 2, it might be a good idea to recommend an overboost solution either through MBC or EBC. 

If people can keep intake temperatures down and psi at or around 20, I definitely see 275 hp being possible. I'm excited to see this happen.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

jennekke said:


> The only contention I have with this is the crazy boost spike. I can't see software compensating enough for the crazy torque spike from this turbo. I don't want this turbo to be known for throwing rods *crosses fingers*. After stage 2, it might be a good idea to recommend an overboost solution either through MBC or EBC.
> 
> If people can keep intake temperatures down and psi at or around 20, I definitely see 275 hp being possible. I'm excited to see this happen.


I believe the MBC is one of the advised components for tunes which are not specifically for this setup? cap the spike with it, running in parallel with n75

with appropriate software there does'nt need to be a spike.


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## jennekke (Jan 8, 2010)

software requires some number x of boost via the n75 valve.

turbo spools up and exceeds the ability of the n75 to compensate for boost request vs actual

call me crazy but I don't think you can control the spike via software with a small turbo because of the way it spools up. I really would be happy to be wrong about that though...


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## elliott18t (Apr 2, 2008)

loking forward to this, hoping i don't have to pay tons of money however (although the makers would deserve it lol).. There was a reason i went with Uni and chose this turbo :/.


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## kevinadamsvw (Oct 15, 2007)

:thumbup: in for updates.

just ordered my kit yesterday


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

Hey all! Thanks for the input.
As far as the boost spikes, they can be controlled about 80-90% with the appropriate software running it. however, for the most control over your boost spikes (because of the nature of this turbo) you will want to run a MBC in with your N75.

As far as the cost of the software, we really want to keep the price competitive. Right now our stage 1 and 2 is looking between 450-500. probably looking at maybe 550 for 2+. again just rough numbers for the moment. 

Again, since stage 1 and 2 will be kind of a "set" stage with a strict list of required hardware, we are trying to make it kind of a universal deal, however, if and when the user wants to move to stage 2+, the software becomes more "custom" to his/her setup. this would be more of a process of getting data on the specific car, then building a custom tune to yeild further power than the stage 2 file.


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I'd recommend a fuel pump upgrade for Stage 2. That and 3.5fpr.


You are so correct! I edited our list up yonder to include that as a recommendation.
After some data collection yesterday, the 380s on a 3 bar seem to suffice just fine, however switching to the 4 bar, (so basically going to the 415/440s the stock pump doesnt keep the flow high enough to keep feeding them past 4500rpm very well...

*Side note* Looking foreward to getting that TIP and In line!!!! Thanks again! Itll be sooooo much help for our next adventure... which starts Sat when we basically spend the next 4 days doing nothing but driving and logging... all types of driving and logging....normal, aggressive, WOT, then pulling over and switching out the injectors, and logging, and driving.


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## misternoob (Oct 25, 2009)

This would be perfect once the stock turbo dies. 

:thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

jennekke said:


> software requires some number x of boost via the n75 valve.
> 
> turbo spools up and exceeds the ability of the n75 to compensate for boost request vs actual
> 
> call me crazy but I don't think you can control the spike via software with a small turbo because of the way it spools up. I really would be happy to be wrong about that though...


you can, I have.
having an overly stiff actuator however makes it harder to control.
you can control the N75s control if you know what I mean in software


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> you can, I have.


That's the benefit of a custom map built from the ground up. N75 duty cycle calcs tailored to the turbo.

Here's an example courtesy of Motoza Performance


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## jennekke (Jan 8, 2010)

It will be cool to see the outcome of the 2+ program to see the program maintain torque down low and keep it around 200-215 by redline (depending on where you set your rev limiter) and how long the turbo can maintain boost

TQ	HP at 6700 RPM	HP At 7000 RPM
200	255.1408987	266.5651181
205	261.5194212	273.229246
210	267.8979436	279.893374
215	274.2764661	286.5575019
220	280.6549886	293.2216299


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

jennekke said:


> It will be cool to see the outcome of the 2+ program to see the program maintain torque down low and keep it around 200-215 by redline (depending on where you set your rev limiter) and how long the turbo can maintain boost


This turbo itself can maintain boost through the whole powerband. Its all about what you want the software to do. 
Dave has the longitudnal setup, and his 2+ program is holding somewhere between 1950-2200 
mbar of boost at 6100. He has since modified the program to taper off around 5500rom, but that is only due to altitude. up here at 6000+ feet, we have found it is best to back off on the boost in high rpm, and then compensate by adjusting timing...
But as for your comment, we can hold 2200mbar of boost through redline if the user so chooses.
There are a ton of things you can do with the boost request. have it build nice and gently then hold, have it spike then hold. have hit build then drop...etc


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## jennekke (Jan 8, 2010)

I already have the turbo, so I'm really interested in what you're working on for SW for it even if I may not be able to get it for my car.

I have revo stage 2 and in 3rd gear at 6500 I'm at 18-19psi and ~7k down to 15psi. I'm leaving the n75 plugged in electronically but boost is being handled by a mbc. With just the n75, boost falls off very quickly at 6000.


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## cpearson (Aug 22, 2010)

Interested in the tune for the longitude 1.8. I have an AEB with a frankenturbo in my my newly built rock racer and have not nailed down the software. Running aftermarket intake manifold, 3" turbo back, 2 1/2" after market intercooler, inline fuel pump, Franken tip/diverter and exhaust manifold. Bought the red top injectors that GIAC recommends with their PC-16 file which is what I was originally thinking of running as no one makes software for this setup that I know of. Who do I need to get in touch with about this software?

Motor/Turbo is in this:


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## slickfisher (Oct 16, 2004)

The franken experience is looking more and more enticing. Franken specific dedicated software should just about complete the circle. 
Although, desiring 20+ psi above 7k rpms might be pushing it a bit with such a small turbo with repect to shaft speeds and the heat generated.
It's getting harder to not pull the trigger on this product.

I could see the world beating a path to Slappy's door if his hardware kit came with dedicated software for $1500. 

Good work.:thumbup:


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## BMP20th (Jul 23, 2006)

opcorn:


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## 20vGetta (Oct 8, 2006)

watching:beer:


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## VDub Dan-O (Mar 24, 2010)

slickfisher said:


> I could see the world beating a path to Slappy's door if his hardware kit came with dedicated software for $1500.


That might be a bit of a dream.


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

Just an update for all of you followers,

We are collecting data over the next week, building a few different injector tables. Right now we are working on the 386cc injectors on a 3bar. We are also going to be working on the 415/440 here pretty soon. Gotta install my inline fuel pump. I will post the logs up here very soon all! Thanks for the support!


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## 24Vjrod1.8T (Dec 24, 2009)

Watching this. 
opcorn:


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## G-Ride (Feb 21, 2011)

one.fast.gti said:


> This turbo itself can maintain boost through the whole powerband. Its all about what you want the software to do.
> Dave has the longitudnal setup, and his 2+ program is holding somewhere between 1950-2200
> mbar of boost at 6100. He has since modified the program to taper off around 5500rom, but that is only due to altitude. up here at 6000+ feet, we have found it is best to back off on the boost in high rpm, and then compensate by adjusting timing...
> But as for your comment, we can hold 2200mbar of boost through redline if the user so chooses.
> There are a ton of things you can do with the boost request. have it build nice and gently then hold, have it spike then hold. have hit build then drop...etc


I think its important to remember that the F4H's are still reasonably small frame turbo's and not exempt from the same traits as all other small frame turbos. Heat is still something to consider here. The taper isn't/wasn't due purely to altitude. I was finding that even at sea level (F4H-L) with an 18 degree celcius ambient temperature that the IAT's were soaring when trying to sustain high boost pressures above 5500RPM. While very efficient, the turbo still generates significant amounts of heat when you are working it that hard, as is reasonable to expect.

I wasn't able to keep the IAT's below 55-60 degrees celsius beyond this point even with a highly efficient EvolutionRacerwerks Intercooler. To make effective use of this 'sustained' top end boost pressure you really need to consider chemical intercooling, ie water/methanol injection unless you live in an already subzero climate.


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## KurtCav (May 8, 2010)

I love where the FT kit is going. Subscribed.

:thumbup:


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Just bought this little sucker, hope it lives up to my expectations, and lookin forward to it arriving over in N Ireland, prob the first over here, and will keep watching the software info now with even greater interest Ha Ha. 

Regards Lenny


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

my 2p input:

I think WMI should be part of everyones hybrid conversion.... It helps these hard worked little units very well in my experience.. where you pickup another 15-20bhp whilst keeping ait's cool and egt's under control. Running 2400mb to 6500rpm.
even more so a "requirement" to me for k04 based units


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Any more info on how the data logging is going ref maps

Regards Lenny


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## elliott18t (Apr 2, 2008)

G-Ride said:


> I think its important to remember that the F4H's are still reasonably small frame turbo's and not exempt from the same traits as all other small frame turbos. Heat is still something to consider here. The taper isn't/wasn't due purely to altitude. I was finding that even at sea level (F4H-L) with an 18 degree celcius ambient temperature that the IAT's were soaring when trying to sustain high boost pressures above 5500RPM. While very efficient, the turbo still generates significant amounts of heat when you are working it that hard, as is reasonable to expect.
> 
> I wasn't able to keep the IAT's below 55-60 degrees celsius beyond this point even with a highly efficient EvolutionRacerwerks Intercooler. To make effective use of this 'sustained' top end boost pressure you really need to consider chemical intercooling, ie water/methanol injection unless you live in an already subzero climate.


something to think about for me then... but also Im not sitting around above 5500rpms all day. :sly:
not sure if thats a thing i would want to do, but i have never really looked into it. Any good and reasonably priced kits?opcorn:


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

badger5 said:


> my 2p input:
> 
> I think WMI should be part of everyones hybrid conversion.... It helps these hard worked little units very well in my experience.. where you pickup another 15-20bhp whilst keeping ait's cool and egt's under control. Running 2400mb to 6500rpm.
> even more so a "requirement" to me for k04 based units


Again, its a matter of the persons long term goals. what kind of power youre wanting to make, etc. As far as the Stage 2, and 2+ absolutely, it will most likely be a recommendation that becomes a requirement. 

I have been doing just some tests on boost/WMI down here in AZ, and tonight I was managing to pull 24psi peak, and hold 20-22 (on the gauge) well into 5800+rpm with just the right timing settings and such. I did some logs which I will be posting soon (just need to go over them with dave to interpret them etc before throwing them up) Also, I am awaiting word from Dave, as I am waiting on some files he has been developing for my current injectors so we can start. so there is the delay folks, I apologize for it, and am eagerly awaiting the files from Dave, so we can get this party started!


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Couldn't you just use Eurodyne and make everything work with Maestro? It seems like the whole thread is about getting a custom file together, which was exactly the reason Chris made the programs...just my 2¢


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

i was thinking they are doing this to have a sub $800 tune that is perfectly tailored to the setup, and they can sell it as a bundle along with the hardware...

kinda like what APR did/does. 

but i could be wrong 

Keep up the good work guys.


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## Vr6Wannabe (Jan 16, 2007)

pretty stoked about this thread! lookin foward to the stage 2+ tune!


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## DrTrae (May 31, 2005)

Are you guys going to do upgrade pricing for the different stages? Also in for any news. :thumbup:


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> i was thinking they are doing this to have a sub $800 tune that is perfectly tailored to the setup, and they can sell it as a bundle along with the hardware...
> 
> kinda like what APR did/does.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what we are doing. guys!



DrTrae said:


> Are you guys going to do upgrade pricing for the different stages? Also in for any news. :thumbup:


Most likely, we are just working on the software for now, but yeah, we will most likely do the upgrade type pricing, unless of course, we do a custom upgrade tune that requires more than the usual stuff


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Any more updates guys 

Regards Lenny


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## meex (May 19, 2010)

*018CG*

I have my gti with AGU engine, ECU 906 018CG, flashable But Not readable. you think this software going work? 
I purchase very soon my kit and have curiosity about this if I wait or search for another softaware. 

Regards,


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I am sure that you would find success with either of the two forum sponsors (Malone and C2 Motorsports). Motoza might also be able to handle this.


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

Stage 2+ gonna blow rods?


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## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

This is an intressting thread !  



Brammage said:


> Stage 2+ gonna blow rods?


 Well.. apparently if you get the boost to early without control.. well im right now investigating why i have bent 2 rods in 2 weeks now.. i have to lift out my engine again.. 

read more in this thread whant happened to me.. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5228141-FrankenTurbo-Build-(Stock-rods-now-bent-again)


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

Just bought one. Wanna see where this goes....


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Brammage said:


> Stage 2+ gonna blow rods?


 Its all about torque spike, a small turbo with a quick-spool setup (smaller piping, less timing, stock manifold) will kill rods where a 30R won't because there is a lot more lag. Low-end torque kills rods, not high-RPM power (to a certain extent)


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

I cant wait for the f23 software!!! When does development on that start?


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Any more updates guys
> 
> Regards Lenny


 Heres the latest! We finally have gotten the 386cc on 4bar fueling map completed (for the most part...95%) so now we are on to boost and timing for a stage 1 and possibly stage 1+. I will be getting together with Dave this week to go over things, and then bang out the rest of stage 1 and 1+. But then starting work on the stage 2 file. 



meex said:


> I have my gti with AGU engine, ECU 906 018CG, flashable But Not readable. you think this software going work?
> I purchase very soon my kit and have curiosity about this if I wait or search for another softaware.
> 
> Regards,


 I will ask Dave what he thinks about this..... PM me with details on what you mean by flash but not read... etc, what is your goal for the ECM, and what all has been done? 



Brammage said:


> Stage 2+ gonna blow rods?


 We will be figuring that out here soon. They say that for the late 1.8t the max tq is 300 Crank TQ. since I have the rods done on mine already, we will watch for our torque spikes, Dave is a master at controlling the boost curve/spike with his software. we have been playing with spool/spike the last few revisions, it is amazing what all you can do with the n75! 



Jim_Coupe said:


> This is an intressting thread !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Seems like your tq spike may not be in control, what kind of software/engine code etc do you have goin on?


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

I made 264whp/291wtq with my k04-02x on stock rods. I was running somewhere in the low 13s for AFRS too at the point. Usually it has to be 300wtq to snap em, or really awful detontation, AFRs, and higher tq.


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

04VDubGLI said:


> I made 264whp/291wtq with my k04-02x on stock rods. I was running somewhere in the low 13s for AFRS too at the point. Usually it has to be 300wtq to snap em, or really awful detontation, AFRs, and higher tq.


 Snapping rods, from the experience I have had/heard about, happens at low rpms with high boost spikes. Low end torque is where the stock rods are weak. we are keeping an eye on the torque spikes and levels. Bottom line, is the turbo capable of snapping rods? Most likely.... Depending on the persons build and hardware list, there will be an appropriate stage to go with. and of course the closer we get to that stage, the more we will know. 

UPDATE FOLKS!!! I WILL POST LOGS AND DATA LATER THIS WEEK AFTER DAVE AND I GO THROUGH ALL OF IT..... UP UNTIL ABOUT 2 DAYS AGO, WE WERE WORKING ON FUELING TABLES.... FROM NOW ON ITS THE FUN STUFF


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## burkechrs1 (Dec 1, 2008)

Any chance you guys could look into a mafless option? Less to worry about and I can save $50 on a 3" housing haha


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

burkechrs1 said:


> Any chance you guys could look into a mafless option? Less to worry about and I can save $50 on a 3" housing haha


 It is possible for us to do a mafless option for you. The MAF however, is one of those ways we are able to get such good results. It provides one more level of accuracy. If we did a mafless option, it would be the type of deal where we would either a: need to know your exact setup and power goals so we would know exactly which file to get you set up with, or b: need to do a custom tune with you, either in person, or via remote data.... 

But to answer your question, yes it is possible, as of this moment, we havent gone that direction yet, since we are still in the middle of just building the core programs and stages themselves....


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

one.fast.gti said:


> This is exactly what we are doing.


 Awesome! Goodluck with your project!


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

My kit arrived today, many thanks Slappy, lookin forward to getting it all put together next month, and hopefully suitable software to light her up. 
So come on guys get the software packages sorted please. 

Regards Lenny


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## BluishGreen1.8T (Sep 2, 2006)

im running my big 16g EVO turbo off of GIAC ko4-023 software with some unisetting tweaks and it is very very well tuned for what it is. 

:thumbup::thumbup: 


i think if you are going to tweak any of the existing softwares...GIAC would probably be your best bet.:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

Have everything lined up for my frankenturbo install. Giving motoza tuning a try. Slappy is a class act to say the least.


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

Brammage said:


> Have everything lined up for my frankenturbo install. Giving motoza tuning a try. Slappy is a class act to say the least.


I'm with you Brammage. I'm going with Malone tuning, though.... I can't wait to get this thing done...


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

I considered my options and went this route. Competition is good right?

I gotta get this soft limp mode issue under control


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## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

I've been following the FrankenTurbo setup since the first threads popped up and now it gets even better!! :thumbup::thumbup: Keep up the good work and testing guys. On a slightly related note: What about MaloneTuning? I thought there was going to be an option from them... Oh well, this is moving ahead and a Stg1 kit seems perfect for what I'm looking for. :beer:


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

I guess the numbers will tell. As soon as I get everything ironed out (sometimes tells me boost leaks are going to pop up when I go to a 23-24 psi spike on a larger turbo than the 13-14 spike on a smaller one...) I'll be headed to the dyno. I will definitely post the numbers up.


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## KurtCav (May 8, 2010)

I still think Eurodyne Maestro would offer the most flexibility.

We'll see though.


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

KurtCav said:


> I still think Eurodyne Maestro would offer the most flexibility.
> 
> We'll see though.


Hmmm. I might still consider that. I'll have to look up if it can do logs like VCDS can. I am about to pull the trigger on that.


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## USCG_DUB (Feb 23, 2008)

Just saw this, very good idea. If I had the money to buy this kit I would right now, but in the mean time I get to sit back and drool. 
Anyways Im running revo stg2 right now with supporting mods and know that revo uses lemmiwinks to adjust their software. I was kinda wanting to get this kit and take lemmiwinks to adjust my software to work with the bigger turbo. Not sure how possible this would be though, sounds good in my head though lol.


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

USCG_DUB said:


> Just saw this, very good idea. If I had the money to buy this kit I would right now, but in the mean time I get to sit back and drool.
> Anyways Im running revo stg2 right now with supporting mods and know that revo uses lemmiwinks to adjust their software. I was kinda wanting to get this kit and take lemmiwinks to adjust my software to work with the bigger turbo. Not sure how possible this would be though, sounds good in my head though lol.


Its a great idea depending on your supporting mods. I had REVO2 as well when I first bought the F4h-T, had 386cc injectors on a 4bar, water/meth, FMIC, rods, Forge DV, etc etc etc, had all of my REVO settings as follows: Boost:9, Timing:9, Fuel:9. and instead of using lemmiwinks (because pulling my dash fuse was a pain in my ass) I used unisettings to tweak things out, added more timing, played with idle, load, fuel, etc and managed to pull 239 WHP and 271WTQ.

Frankly Im pretty convinced that Dave @ Motoza can produce a file that will get more power than that. Sorry for the lack of data by the way, We will get some up this week, I will be getting together with Dave to work some more on things. it turns out I had a small problem with my fueling... my system was dying out at the top end on a 4bar with 386's... things were a little kinked up. I was still managing to pull 180 g/s on a very conservative (in my opinion) stage one tune. little timing, bout 18psi boost, and very wierd fueling since my system was all kinked up. I will get the data and graphs from Dave and post them this week.

On a personal note, I have been very impressed with Daves program. I couldnt get my boost under control with REVO2. Dave has been very meticulous with things, which has been great. He got the boost under control with the N75, and its very close to the way I had things set with my FORGE UNOS MBC. 
He has been very quick to get back to me with files to correct issues and get things moving along with the file. A real pleasure to work with. Having him build a file and being able to converse with him, and request certain things and such has made this experience very worthwhile. A whole new meaning to customer service, having the guy building your file an email away. Dave is working on some 440cc files for me right now, and I know both he and I want to re-touch the 380 file now that my fuel system is unkinked.


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi guys, best place (price) to buy 440cc green giants injectors

Regards Lenny


ps have 386cc at present


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

*injectors...*



leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Hi guys, *where is the* best place (price) to buy 440cc green giants injectors*?*


Best prices I have found were off a guy whole deals them for mustangs. IIRC they should fit the 1.8T fuel rail. Not 100% sure though.

individual:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bosc...Accessories&hash=item43a4a6d93b#ht_2962wt_939

Pack of eight: (killer deal if you have a buddy to split them up.)
http://www.blueovalindustries.com/en4540.html


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Wow. blueovalindustries is a Ford parts dealer but they are a heck of a good source for those particular injectors. At ~$160/4pcs that's darn close to wholesale.


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## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

one.fast.gti said:


> Seems like your tq spike may not be in control, what kind of software/engine code etc do you have goin on?



I think my TQ spike went to high.. I didnt use an MBC valve.. My rods went to hell 2 times with a Stage 2+ software.. The spike was measured 1.7bar.. with VAG-COM 

BUT keep in mind.. I have 3.5" MAF, High flow tubular manifold, AEB bigport head, AEB bigport intake, 100 cell race kat and 3" DP... This setup means really good flow.. and I think i got to good flow to my Turbo to fast or something.. 

I run on 440cc´s and Stage2+ ....and with this setup the car was freakin WILD.. no doubt.. it feelt like my chipped Audi S2... 
A real BANG for the buck.. but after what happened to me i strongly recommend H-Beam rods if you´re not 110% sure of the boot control.... Otherwise adios to the rods.. This is only from my experience with 2 bent rods and 2 engine liftouts.. 
throwing the FT back in soon again.. cant live without it..  

Right now im running my old K04 again just to make sure everyting is OK after rebuild.. i have already damaged one FT due to gravel in the intake or something.. I dont really know for sure.. but most likely it was some crap in the filter.. 
Anyway i can feel a good difference between my K04-015 and the FT.. I think the inlet sizes of the FT has much to say asweel on the response..

Jim


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## travis_gli (Jan 31, 2008)

opcorn: I'm subscribed. :thumbup:


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## one.fast.gti (Dec 21, 2009)

Jim_Coupe said:


> I think my TQ spike went to high.. I didnt use an MBC valve.. My rods went to hell 2 times with a Stage 2+ software.. The spike was measured 1.7bar.. with VAG-COM
> 
> BUT keep in mind.. I have 3.5" MAF, High flow tubular manifold, AEB bigport head, AEB bigport intake, 100 cell race kat and 3" DP... This setup means really good flow.. and I think i got to good flow to my Turbo to fast or something..
> 
> ...


Wow! my next adventure is the AEB head with the AWP valves etc, The way that I have things set up right now is 3in DP, Test Pipe, high flow manifold, high flow IC piping etc. With REVO 2 on the N75 (which really, I never liked how they controlled their boost on the N75, spiked the dropped below target and struggled to get back up to request) When I went down to AZ which is about 1100ft elevation, REVO2 on the N75 and Dougs stock wastegate settings was giving me the craziest boost spikes! 33psi gauge pressure and over 2bar VAGcom..... thank god I have the IE rods that would have been disasterous, so after that, just becuase I freaked out I loosened the wastegate actuator settings, and still got crazy numbers.... so I set it back, went with my FORGE UNOS and there ya have it, problem solved. spike @ 24 hold @ 22 to 5400rpm and tapers down.

Now, heres the best part, with Dave running the N75 on his software, he was able to tame the frankenturbo and still get a REALLY nice boost curve. on the stage 1 software that I had him run the boost up to about 20 gauge pressure and he had it hold up between 18-20 all the way to about 5400 where he tapered it down but honestly I was VERY impressed with the way Dave was able to tame the infamous torque spiking Frankenturbo.... 

On the stage 2+ software I am going to ask Dave to run the turbo a little harder, 22-24 psi and get the N75 duty cycle up into the 95 ish % range.... thus more boost longer curve, since I will be running water methanol adding more timing as well. 
Of course everything is going to change now since I have the fueling problem fixed up. 

Again sorry for the lack of data, Dave has the good info at the moment and I want to go over things with him and get the right info posted.


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

one.fast.gti said:


> Wow! my next adventure is the AEB head with the AWP valves etc, The way that I have things set up right now is 3in DP, Test Pipe, high flow manifold, high flow IC piping etc. With REVO 2 on the N75 (which really, I never liked how they controlled their boost on the N75, spiked the dropped below target and struggled to get back up to request) When I went down to AZ which is about 1100ft elevation, REVO2 on the N75 and Dougs stock wastegate settings was giving me the craziest boost spikes! 33psi gauge pressure and over 2bar VAGcom..... thank god I have the IE rods that would have been disasterous, so after that, just becuase I freaked out I loosened the wastegate actuator settings, and still got crazy numbers.... so I set it back, went with my FORGE UNOS and there ya have it, problem solved. spike @ 24 hold @ 22 to 5400rpm and tapers down.
> 
> Now, heres the best part, with Dave running the N75 on his software, he was able to tame the frankenturbo and still get a REALLY nice boost curve. on the stage 1 software that I had him run the boost up to about 20 gauge pressure and he had it hold up between 18-20 all the way to about 5400 where he tapered it down but honestly I was VERY impressed with the way Dave was able to tame the infamous torque spiking Frankenturbo....
> 
> ...


Hopefully I have some numbers and such to report in the next month. Gonna try to get on a dyno while I have Daves remote tuning kit so he can make some tweaks. Gonna have to stay shy of 300 wtq though


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## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

One more thing when speaking of boost spikes.. Make sure to use minimum 8mm vacuumlines when using longer lines.. One tiny little leak in a line that´s under 6mm could introduce you to Mr boost spike.. With 8mm you are safer.. 

And soft rubber vacuum lines can be a disaster if you apply som pressure from outside equippment. I did that once.. I installed soft vacuumlines and to make it look more nice i used stripes to make installation more clean.. the pressure from that stripe was engough to choke the flow in the line..


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

hatetolovemydub said:


> I'm with you Brammage. I'm going with Malone tuning, though.... I can't wait to get this thing done...


I just got my flashloader from malone, I'm gonna do my install of my ko4 hybrid in a couple weeks!! really excited to work with Malone, what tune are you using with them? generic or custom, and what turbo are you running. :beer:


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## USCG_DUB (Feb 23, 2008)

one.fast.gti said:


> Its a great idea depending on your supporting mods. I had REVO2 as well when I first bought the F4h-T, had 386cc injectors on a 4bar, water/meth, FMIC, rods, Forge DV, etc etc etc, had all of my REVO settings as follows: Boost:9, Timing:9, Fuel:9. and instead of using lemmiwinks (because pulling my dash fuse was a pain in my ass) I used unisettings to tweak things out, added more timing, played with idle, load, fuel, etc and managed to pull 239 WHP and 271WTQ.
> 
> Frankly Im pretty convinced that Dave @ Motoza can produce a file that will get more power than that. Sorry for the lack of data by the way, We will get some up this week, I will be getting together with Dave to work some more on things. it turns out I had a small problem with my fueling... my system was dying out at the top end on a 4bar with 386's... things were a little kinked up. I was still managing to pull 180 g/s on a very conservative (in my opinion) stage one tune. little timing, bout 18psi boost, and very wierd fueling since my system was all kinked up. I will get the data and graphs from Dave and post them this week.
> 
> ...




One of my local shops down here in South Florida is having his their annual dyno day next month. Ill make sure I make this one to get on the dyno again and get new graphs. Last time I dynoed my K03s was 220ishHP and 280TQ, on settings 9boost and 7 timing, 0fuel since it doesnt matter the value nothing will change. 
So when I upgrade to the FT, I have some graphs to work against. Im hoping ill put dont alittle more power as the car feels faster now then from the last time it was dynoed.


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

mk4boost said:


> I just got my flashloader from malone, I'm gonna do my install of my ko4 hybrid in a couple weeks!! really excited to work with Malone, what tune are you using with them? generic or custom, and what turbo are you running. :beer:


I am doing a custom/frankentune. I have a Eurosport FMIC, Green giant injectors, and a 42dd downpipe/highflow cat. I am not going to be able to do the install for a couple weeks. I need to get my timing belt and a few other little things done before I put the turbo on, and my schedule just isn't allowing it at the moment.:thumbdown:


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

hatetolovemydub said:


> I am doing a custom/frankentune. I have a Eurosport FMIC, Green giant injectors, and a 42dd downpipe/highflow cat. I am not going to be able to do the install for a couple weeks. I need to get my timing belt and a few other little things done before I put the turbo on, and my schedule just isn't allowing it at the moment.:thumbdown:


yea I'm in the same boat, 440cc genesis, ghl downpipe, 3 inch straigh from there... my inner valve cover gasket is leaking so my plugs are swimming in oil :facepalm:, nasty misfires at high boost... I'm trying for the weekend of the 23rd... which frankenturbo are you running? f4 or thr new f23?


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

mk4boost said:


> yea I'm in the same boat, 440cc genesis, ghl downpipe, 3 inch straigh from there... my inner valve cover gasket is leaking so my plugs are swimming in oil :facepalm:, nasty misfires at high boost... I'm trying for the weekend of the 23rd... which frankenturbo are you running? f4 or thr new f23?


I'm doing the F4. 

I also have some swimming plugs and oil all over my head from my VCG, lol. I just haven't gotten to that yet either... Maybe this weekend, it's supposed to be pretty nice here...


I did all the brakes and suspension a couple weeks ago, so as soon as I can get this going, I should be all set. My biggest problem is it is my DD and I don't have another car, so once I start the stars need to align so I can get it all done asap.


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

hatetolovemydub said:


> I'm doing the F4.
> 
> I also have some swimming plugs and oil all over my head from my VCG, lol. I just haven't gotten to that yet either... Maybe this weekend, it's supposed to be pretty nice here...
> 
> ...



haha yupp, its killing me not having another car to drive... where are you located?


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## R32dreamer17 (Oct 11, 2007)

:thumbup:


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## R32dreamer17 (Oct 11, 2007)

> I made 264whp/291wtq with my k04-02x on stock rods. I was running somewhere in the low 13s for AFRS too at the point. Usually it has to be 300wtq to snap em, or really awful detontation, AFRs, and higher tq.


what software are you using?


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi, just checking on position of actuator bolt on shaft ref psi to open, ie 5psi to 10psi, if need to, will post pic of my own, as this is obviously very important

Regards Lenny


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

It should be set to whatever preload your tuner wants. I tend to think 8psi crack pressure is good: it matches OEM K04 settings and holds pressure well. What pressure did it come to you at?


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Have no paper work to suggest a preset pressure for my unit Slappy ??

Regards Lenny


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## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

one.fast.gti said:


> Its a great idea depending on your supporting mods. I had REVO2 as well when I first bought the F4h-T, had 386cc injectors on a 4bar, water/meth, FMIC, rods, Forge DV, etc etc etc, had all of my REVO settings as follows: Boost:9, Timing:9, Fuel:9. and instead of using lemmiwinks (because pulling my dash fuse was a pain in my ass) I used unisettings to tweak things out, added more timing, played with idle, load, fuel, etc and managed to pull 239 WHP and 271WTQ.
> .


i had the revo file for the pro imports ko4-23 kit and made 267 whp on less than 20 lbs with 2 bent rods, u should have made more if u turned down the timing, to like 6 man, 9 is wayy to high for pump gas it will pull lots of timing, 

got the f23 in there now with revo stg 3, and if i can ever get the kinks worked out it should make some decent power,


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Any more info ref the software guys

Regards Lenny


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Ok guys, is this thread grinding to a halt or are the remap guys coming up with something for this hybrid, as my unit is now ready for some sort of imput (remap) 

Regards Lenny


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I know it appears that nothing is happening with this, but not so:

Unitronic has completed their 440cc Stage 2+ file and it's now available
Motoza is actively working on their Stage 2 and the Stage 1 is finished.
Forum advertiser Malone is working with several users and making progress
Forum advertiser C2 Motorsports also has hardware in-hand and will have transversal-engine files shortly. Longitudinal engine files for 440cc are available now.

All of the above are combining F4 turbos with Bosch Green GIANTS injectors. 440cc @ 3bar.

Yesterday I was at ForceFed Engineering to dyno test a Stage 2 base file on a couple of exhaust configurations. We were examining the difference between a "de-cat" stock downpipe versus a proper 3" test pipe. It was a good learning experience for me, and as usual, ForceFed was terrific. Later today I'll post to the thread a short video of highlights (such as they are).


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Unitronic has completed their 440cc Stage 2+ file and it's now available
> Motoza is actively working on their Stage 2 and the Stage 1 is finished.


Motoza is pretty backed up and I was put on a waiting list :banghead:
This newly released Unitronic file seems very enticing.

I am going to contact the nearest uni dealer and see if they know about the new release or not. For some reason I am doubtful. The local dealers are usually the last to know about anything.

This software thing blows but it is only because I am so impatient :laugh:


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I know it appears that nothing is happening with this, but not so:
> 
> Unitronic has completed their 440cc Stage 2+ file and it's now available
> Motoza is actively working on their Stage 2 and the Stage 1 is finished.
> ...


Thanks Doug for your prompt reply, is it possible that you, or some other informed person, could post a table of each tuners rough BHP and TORQUE figures for there remaps, stating either stage1, stage2 etc etc. It's just a thought that would make picking a suitable tuner much easier for all concerned, depending on there own (power) wishes for this excellent hybrid turbo

Regards Lenny


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Thanks Doug for your prompt reply, is it possible that you, or some other informed person, could post a table of each tuners rough BHP and TORQUE figures for there remaps, stating either stage1, stage2 etc etc. It's just a thought that would make picking a suitable tuner much easier for all concerned, depending on there own (power) wishes for this excellent hybrid turbo
> 
> Regards Lenny


Stage 2 file is still in the works. Dave is awaiting logs from me at the moment, but Ohio has decided to be wet....all the time. Running logs at 100mph in the rain isn't exactly a good idea. 

Patience my child. I know it's tough...even mine is starting to show signs of fatigue.


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

Just got off the phone with Unitronic. The guy I spoke to was extremely helpful. He actually seem excited about the new file. He said it is not ready publicly but If you want the file it can be sent to a specific dealer to be installed. All they need is your ECU code from a vag scan. Very very tempting see that all the other tuners out there have not really been blowin my socks off. sorry guys.


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

Personally, I kinda like the fact that I can send an email to [email protected] and get a reply from the owner of the company. But that's just me. 

Not knocking UNI, I am sure that their tune will rock when all is said and done. :thumbup:


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

I just got the Uni stage 2+ tune for the frankenTurbo with 440cc injectors and a 3bar FPR

Im spiking around 29psi but don't know where I tapper b/c I haven't many miles on the turbo

My mods are in my signature and will be doing some logs and dyno in a few weeks


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

VDuBPL said:


> I just got the Uni stage 2+ tune for the frankenTurbo with 440cc injectors and a 3bar FPR


beat me to it. I think I am going to get mine on friday. What did they charge you if you dont mind me askin?


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

tune upgrade $50


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

VDuBPL said:


> tune upgrade $50


:thumbup:

( also, why such a small exhaust when all software hosts recommend custom TBE?)


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

I used a 3" catless downpipe for a while but I hate the drone and the vibrations from it are terrible, I went back to 2.25" downpipe for now but after I sell my 3"" I will end up buying myself a 2.5" dowpipe to match my cat back.


----------



## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

oh ok. I have one of those 3" ebay DP that I added a 3" highflow cat to. with a 10" resonator and a borla muffler I get zero drone, and no rattle and clearance issues. How is your dogbone mm? that would make the DP move enough to get some rattles.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

VDuBPL said:


> I just got the Uni stage 2+ tune for the frankenTurbo with 440cc injectors and a 3bar FPR
> 
> Im spiking around 24psi but don't know where I tapper b/c I haven't many miles on the turbo
> 
> My mods are in my signature and will be doing some logs and dyno in a few weeks


What the??? At ForceFed? You had to have done this today because I was down there with them all of yesterday. You a grey GTi? Keep me posted on your availability to dyno that thing. I'm especially interested to see what (if any) impact your conservative exhaust has.

Mike Z. called into ForceFed while I was there so I was able to wrestle the phone out of Fabian's hands. I talked to the man behind the curtain! Anyway, he says the file is a bit better than the one dynoed a couple of weeks ago. Maybe torque is up a bit? Hope to know soon.


----------



## JWoody (May 17, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Mike Z. called into ForceFed while I was there...Anyway, he says the file is a bit better than the one dynoed a couple of weeks ago. Maybe torque is up a bit? Hope to know soon.


 WWwwwwhhhaaaaaaaattttttt?!?!! Do I need to call RAI or wait? The car is still running great with +.75 Timing Advance. Steve thought I could go a plug colder to BKR8's at .25-27 gap and bump timing to +1.5 and she'll really be going...nice to finally see others in the UNI 440cc club... :thumbup: send me an email...

-J


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

O wow, Hi Doug!

Yes the reflex silver gti was the one getting the nice tune, I spike at 25 psi and like said before, I havent held the pedal down yet...

I am going back to forcefed when time allows to get the car dynoed, Fabian isent gonna be there next week and im going to the bahamas the on the 20th, hope to make it on the dyno either 2morrow or friday or in 2 weeks.

The turbo really pulls, thanks for putting out a great product!

The car got finished with tune and all 5/3/11, I picked the car up around 8pm, were you stil there then?


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

maniakmax1788 said:


> oh ok. I have one of those 3" ebay DP that I added a 3" highflow cat to. with a 10" resonator and a borla muffler I get zero drone, and no rattle and clearance issues. How is your dogbone mm? that would make the DP move enough to get some rattles.


LOL, I have all 3 vf engine mounts but the drone is the worst part, Im really looking forward to the 2.5" downpipe tho...


----------



## kevinadamsvw (Oct 15, 2007)

i guess i need to get ahold of unitronic and get the 440cc file.


----------



## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

nice to see some progress on here... finallyyy just dropped the ol' ko3 today 

hybrid ko4 is hopefully getting installed tomorrow/saturday, mark at malone tuning sent me a base file the other day so i'm gonna try and get everything installed by this weekend and get a dyno run in at forcefed to see what we've got! i'll post some updates when theyre ready...


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

man i really like what i am seeing here.

i am still debating the switch to new Uni Stage 2+ file.

i really enjoy my 300 pounds of torque and off the line grunt.


i want to see more dynos with this tune. Kudos to all you guys who went with the frankenturbo.

I told u this was a great product! :beer:


----------



## VDub Dan-O (Mar 24, 2010)

X2
I've been FT-ing since last July.


----------



## carcraz (Jan 25, 2011)

i have FT mine since Feb this year. looking forward to get a software from Uni too. hope they have a file for passat B5.
now running with MBC to control overboost as mine is a APR stage 1 chipped to prevent from going into limp mode also.
this is good news!! hurray... reliable + stable tune coming for the FT's..


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Just took my car out, I havent really pushed my car untill today and wow, I just boosted up to 29psi with the uni stage 2+ frankenTurbo tune...I need to get myself a electronic boost controller

Any good ones I should buy so I can adjust from the cockpit?


----------



## boosted b5 (Nov 1, 2004)

JWoody said:


> WWwwwwhhhaaaaaaaattttttt?!?!! Do I need to call RAI or wait? The car is still running great with +.75 Timing Advance. Steve thought I could go a plug colder to BKR8's at .25-27 gap and bump timing to +1.5 and she'll really be going...nice to finally see others in the UNI 440cc club... :thumbup: send me an email...
> 
> -J


NGK 4554 is a NGK V-Racing plug. 8 heat range. personally just witnessed it used in a car that made 1105RWHP. so id say its a good plug.


----------



## JWoody (May 17, 2006)

And this is for sure the 440cc tune with stock N75 and 3bar FPR? What source are you using for your gauge? I'd be curious to see some logs and see what your ECU is seeing.

-J


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Yea 440cc tune, new south boost gauge tapped into the FPR, Im gonna get logs done in 2 weeks, fabian is off at force fed and i want him to be present


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

VDuBPL said:


> Just took my car out, I havent really pushed my car untill today and wow, I just boosted up to 29psi with the uni stage 2+ frankenTurbo tune...I need to get myself a electronic boost controller
> 
> Any good ones I should buy so I can adjust from the cockpit?


the 440cc Uni file doesn't overboost. So something is not behaving as it should. Have you tried running on pure wastegate pressure to be sure the turbo itself is functioning ok?


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

I have no clue how to do that, Im running the turbo as I got it from force fed

Tell me what to do so I can try it... Is maybe my n75 not tight enough in the tip? They only ziptied it instead of using a pipe clamp


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Does this wastegate look like its cranked too little thus why I get over boosting?


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

So I unplugged my N75 and I spike at 9 psi...plugging it back in I spike somewhere around 28 (I let go of the pedal cause I get scared) LoL

HELP


----------



## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

remove the clip, loosen the top nut so it moves up the rod.

loosen it a few turns, then screw the bottom nut up so it locks the wastegate rod in place.

This should lower your boost some.

if that doesnt work. get a boostvalve from boostvalve.com and run it in overboost configuration.

this will allow you to keep a check on the over boosting.

also make sure you are using the N75F.... look at the part # on the n75 if its the F revision the part number will end in a F.

Come back to me with some info after you've moved the wastegate rod up. 

If you dont understand how to adjust your wastegate look up. "cranking wastegate" 

good luck

also you should verify that the vacuum line going from the wastegate to the N75 isnt ripped. 

if that line is ripped your N75 wont be able to control boost and you'll see your turbo spike uncontrollably.


----------



## Mindfault (Feb 2, 2010)

get to work Shaun!


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Djusted the wastegate rod and now I'm spiking at 22, It feels like a sweet spot, no surging...nice and smooth too


----------



## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

VDuBPL said:


> Djusted the wastegate rod and now I'm spiking at 22, It feels like a sweet spot, no surging...nice and smooth too


glad i've been able to bless u with my knowledge. :beer: go have a beer on me.

i would crank it down a turn. you should be able to spike 24-25 and hold 20 at redline.

if your happy with 22 then stay there. 22 psi feels very good with these turbos


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Thank you so much for your help!

I'll keep it at 24 for right now cause it feels just right, boost comes on nice not too much all at once. Its nice to know I can always crank it up a bit...I might crank it if needed later on 

Heres an image of the difference, only couple threads difference.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Todd -- thx for the troubleshooting help. Mother's day kept me off the computer today.

So we're boosting to a max of 25psi? How is spool? 3rd gear WOT from 2000 you should be getting 1bar of boost by no later than 2700-ish rpm. Are you good there?


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

I was playing around with it yesterday, I turned the actuator rod down to like 18 and the spikes were no good, it would spike to 18 in 1 and second gear but spike at 25 in higher gears, the boost dident come in smooth and the pwer wasent strong so I turned it up just a bit and now im spinking at 22 or 23 in every gear. Its smooth and strong, perfect!


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

At 2800 rpms (vws go up by 2's ) I'm at 15 psi. Sound good?


----------



## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Todd -- thx for the troubleshooting help. Mother's day kept me off the computer today.
> 
> So we're boosting to a max of 25psi? How is spool? 3rd gear WOT from 2000 you should be getting 1bar of boost by no later than 2700-ish rpm. Are you good there?


No problem Doug


----------



## kevinadamsvw (Oct 15, 2007)

so the 440cc file from uni is good to go?

i talked to a dealer close to me and they said it was a 415cc file? :sly:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

kevinadamsvw said:


> so the 440cc file from uni is good to go?
> 
> i talked to a dealer close to me and they said it was a 415cc file? :sly:


I can tell this is going to be a misconception that I'll be fighting for a long while. Bosch Green Giant injectors are *440cc at 3bar*. These are the injectors for which the new Stage 2+ file was written.


----------



## kevinadamsvw (Oct 15, 2007)

:thumbup:


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Doug, 

Do you know what psi the uni stage 2+ franturbo file is soposu run? Im spiking at 22/23, does that sound good?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Initial boost request is ~23psi, which the turbo meets at ~3000rpm. The file then ramps up boost to a max of ~24psi at ~5500. After that point it backs of the wastegate duty cycles until you are at about 20psi at redline. With this kind of profile the torque is very flat up to 5500, and temps are under control all the way up to 7000. Pretty slick.


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Ok, i turned it up, im spiking at 24 now! Much nicer power


----------



## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

I am having so much fun with this.

Am I the first AEB largeport F4?? Any more of you guys out there?

Still waiting on a few more parts. . .


----------



## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

maniakmax1788 said:


> I am having so much fun with this.
> 
> Am I the first AEB largeport F4?? Any more of you guys out there?
> 
> Still waiting on a few more parts. . .



I hope a front mount intercooler is on those list of parts :wave:


----------



## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

yeah, its a work in progress. i have all the necessities for the turbo. FMIC, DV, TIP, Ex mani, TBE...


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Is 24psi fine or should I bring it down to 23?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Can you log it?


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Not myself but im gonna be going down to force fed and will be dynoing and logging next week


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

I'll try to meet with a friend this weekend to do some logs, is there anything specific to look for/at?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

003 - -020
and
118 - 034


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

I'm gonna try dialing in a 23 psi spike tomorrow

I'll try to post logs when I get a chance to do them, Lavi from uni will be helping me out...

Thanks Doug, your customer service is A++


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## carcraz (Jan 25, 2011)

VDuBPL,
i notice u tweak ur wastegate on ur turbine frequently to get the right boost. did you have to unbolt the whole turbine out to tweak the wastegate?


----------



## netken (Mar 20, 2011)

subscribed all the way from Msia .. :laugh:


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## VeeDubbinMike (Oct 30, 2006)

maniakmax1788 said:


> Motoza is pretty backed up and I was put on a waiting list :banghead:
> This newly released Unitronic file seems very enticing.
> 
> I am going to contact the nearest uni dealer and see if they know about the new release or not. For some reason I am doubtful. The local dealers are usually the last to know about anything.
> ...


i'm impatient too, my car is at the point where everything is ready, and it's time to start with go fast motor goodies

i've tried contacting local dealers with no luck, i'd really like to sort of software before i make a decision on the kit, FT should think about maybe including (for an additional fee of course) an fmic w/ install kit in the kit :laugh:


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Adjusted the wastegate to 23/24 but seems to missfire up high in first gear my plugs might be sooty from oil from the old turbo, ill replace and come back


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

gap you plugs to .25

some say .27 but with Hitachi E coils and iridium plugs .25 stopped the misses up top in high boost situations


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Nice, ill try that after work, im running those new irradium NGKs with stock coil packs that were just replaced under recall


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

looks like .025 on iridium plugs with stock coils did the trick!


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

VDuBPL said:


> looks like .025 on iridium plugs with stock coils did the trick!


Good stuff. the iridiums have been good to me. i guess they are special and require .025.

snap some pics of the car and the install


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Heres the car, Ill get a engine bay pic soon!


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## Brammage (Sep 6, 2004)

maniakmax1788 said:


> I am having so much fun with this.
> 
> Am I the first AEB largeport F4?? Any more of you guys out there?
> 
> Still waiting on a few more parts. . .


Fellow Longbeach 17" owner :thumbup:


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

what gap should ppl run with copper plugs?


----------



## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

VDuBPL said:


> what gap should ppl run with copper plugs?


Anyone?

copper NGK bkr7e


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

VDuBPL said:


> Anyone?
> 
> copper NGK bkr7e


not that I am correct, but I re gapped all mine to .25. everything seems to be ok so far. but out of the box they were way off. one was almost .35


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## fodo1.8t (Sep 21, 2010)

what kind of numbers is your setup putting out?

EDIT: are these turbos available seperately? do you have to run these with the hi flow mani?


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

VDuBPL said:


> what gap should ppl run with copper plugs?


.028 or a hair less


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

fodo1.8t said:


> what kind of numbers is your setup putting out?
> 
> EDIT: are these turbos available seperately? do you have to run these with the hi flow mani?


Who are you asking? I havent dynoed yet, and I still dont have software due to Uni throwing me a hell of a curve ball. Trying to get flashed this week and will be hitting the dyno shortly after.

But as an update for this kit. I have the F4 frankenturbo, 440cc green giants, vr6 3" maf with the 1.8T sensor. TIP, FMIC, kinetic high flow mani. AEB large port head. Full custom exhaust. ALL on the stock tune. And man this thing runs incredible! I cant wait for the flash :laugh:


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## 20vGetta (Oct 8, 2006)

do you guys have a website up yet?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

fodo1.8t said:


> are these turbos available seperately?


Yes, with conditions



fodo1.8t said:


> do you have to run these with the hi flow mani?


You have to run a high flow manifold with the F4 turbos, whether its ours or from Kinetic, CTS, et al. No exceptions.


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## Mike.Mike. (Apr 19, 2006)

Soo how new is this new stg2+ program? I just flashed mine for 380cc 2 to 3 weeks ago :[


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

its good, around 26psi I made 238 whp 271 wtq with a stock downpipe!

Ill post some real numbers soon, im just waiting on my 2.5" catless downpipe


----------



## Mike.Mike. (Apr 19, 2006)

Im hoping to be making more than 240whp :/ lol


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Ok guys, turbo, forged rods, JBS exhaust mani,peliquin lsd, 386cc injectors just fitted, running in period now, and then remap, she feels sharp even at the minute with my original map, only slight problem was the TIP does not seem to be long enough to fit unto original style Beetle airbox, so may have to go to a cone type, any make or style I should be lookin at guys ??

Regards Lenny


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## VDub Dan-O (Mar 24, 2010)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> any make or style I should be lookin at guys ??
> 
> Regards Lenny


I cut and tilted the airbox where the MAF is. I then plastic welded in pieces to fill in the gaps.
If you compare the TIP to the MAF you'll see how much you need to angle it.

If you think it's sharp now, wait 'til you get the boost going!!


Dan


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Made a insert today between the TIP and 3" MAF to make mine fit a little better, had a dyno run with the 386cc and 3 bar fpr, with the map they where using she made 238 bhp at 3857 rpm and thought the fuel plot was runing lean from there up so they decided I need a extra fuel pump and a 4 bar fpr.
So they backed the whole lot back slightly for the running in process, and till I buy the items above

Regards Lenny


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

TT225 386 injectors running at 4bar -- and backed by an upgraded fuel pump -- is a good combo. Keep us posted Lenny!


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## 20vGetta (Oct 8, 2006)

I wanna see some pictures, what are you charging for tunes?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Contact C2 Motorsports or Malone Tuning for their pricing. They're both forum sponsors and dedicated to the 1.8T platform.
:thumbup:


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

How come its always a different tune? Uni has been proven. Now its Malone, which hasnt proven ro be anything spectacular. Now were pushing C2 which there is very little info available with regards to their 1.8t tunes. ?? Im confused?? 

Stick with someone for christ sake...

This "bi polar", "tuner of the week" thing is dumb.... 

Just sayin.....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, I prioritize vortex sponsors when posting here. Otherwise I don't play favorites.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Doug... Your product has filled a much needed void in this market, and seems to be selling quite well. Pick a vendor, and stick with them. Then maybe one of these software guys would show YOU a little love. Heck, become a distributor yourself. Offer a COMPLETE package with a proven tune. Pony up the $600 a month, and advertise on here. Get this schit legit...


----------



## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

The kit should also include rods :laugh: " sits back and waits "


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

16plus4v said:


> The kit should also include rods :laugh: " sits back and waits "


Ok Dylan... I just dont get why this guy cant pay for advertising on here LIKE EVERYONE ELSE and keeps changing his recomendations with regards to software everyday..


----------



## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

yeh a lot of people seemed to have gone with malone.....


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

checkdalevel said:


> yeh a lot of people seemed to have gone with malone.....


Exactly what ruffles my feathers here.. 

UNI worked well.. Then (for some unknown reason) he starts pushing Malone. Then, he slaps Malone in the face, and pushes C2. Ive never heard of ANYBODY with a high powered 1.8t running C2.. EVER.. Malone either.. 

If the guy was pushing Tapp tunes it would at least make sense, as their tuning practices are at least on the same planet as UNI.. Arguably better.. 

Noone with real custom schit runs any of these other tunes.. I dont get it.. C2 Makes great vr6 turbo software..

Malone, just appeared out of nowhere, and has no track record really.. Not saying the tunes arent legit, but why jump ship on UNI?

This is all very confusing, and im sure many others are scratching their heads as well


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Ok, ok

I see your point. So...

Firstly, I do advertise on here. Every once in a while you'll see my banner. Not that this makes me anything fancy, but the Vortex staff long ago pitched a persuasive case for advertising and happily got me on board once I felt the expense was manageable.

Secondly, don't get the impression that when I recommend a certain party it is to the absolute exclusion of others. I do try to support my fellow advertisers on here, so that's why you see me invoking Malone and C2 Motorsports as I do.

Another reason is because both Malone and C2 are proactively involved with the 1.8T consumer market. So is Unitronic, although their separation from the Vortex is puzzling to me. All three of these companies have been supportive of FrankenTurbo and enthusiastic about creating products to suit it.

Regardless, as a marketer of products dependent upon such suppliers I have always tried to be diplomatic and non-partisan. Maybe that has come off more as cagey or even wishy-washy but I can't afford to step on toes. Hope this makes sense.

Thx

dh


----------



## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

GIAC ko4-02x tune work for it? 

i have GIAC X+ and i dont really wanna drop 800 or something just to switch software


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Gberg888GLI said:


> GIAC ko4-02x tune work for it?
> 
> i have GIAC X+ and i dont really wanna drop 800 or something just to switch software


Yes. Works well. GIAC requires injectors and MAF from a TT225.


----------



## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

maniakmax1788 said:


> I am having so much fun with this.
> 
> Am I the first AEB largeport F4?? Any more of you guys out there?
> 
> Still waiting on a few more parts. . .




Here´s a link to my AEB car.. But im running an K04 temporary now.. THE FRANKENSTEN MONSTER will be back inte cage This weekend ....
Im running 440cc´s, 3" DP, tubular mani, H-beams and AEB head ... Im going back to The F4 again after the turbo crash that dirty intake hose caused 

Been longin for F4 drama for some time now  

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5228141-FrankenTurbo-Build-(Stock-rods-now-bent-again)


----------



## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

I was just wondering about this F4H and E85... Can I use the same software and just uppgrade the injectors and fuel pump ?? Or do one need a new map ?


----------



## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Yes. Works well. GIAC requires injectors and MAF from a TT225.


I have 440s... will those work in the tt injectors place?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

You can't run higher flowing 440cc injectors on the GIAC file written for 380s, I'm afraid. You should check with your dealer, though. They might have a 440cc file for your car's ECU. I know they've developed software against that size injector.


----------



## jon-vw (May 25, 2011)

*Slightly Worried...*

Thank the lord I found this thread because I was beginning to wonder about many things regarding this kit. I purchased the transversal kit on Wed. and was referred to Chris at CBTuning for the remaining hardware. Chris was real pleasant and helpful. He advised me to buy his F4T install kit that comes with 415cc "Green Giant" Injectors. 

Link --> CB Tuning F4T Install Kit 

Being a Unitronic dealer he also stated specifically that Unitronic has 415cc File running at 3bar with the F4T, yet, everyone on here is saying there's only a 440cc/3bar file from Unitronic. I am now totally lost and am worried I'm going to have to buy new injectors all over again.. 

I checked Unitronic's site and no such file exists, so I endlessly called them up today and got nothing but voicemail... I am currently an owner of Unitronic Stage2 software for my AWP so I prefer not to switch tuners as it will be costly. 

I feel totally stuck already and I haven't even begun my build yet. Help a confuzzled newb out :S 

Thanks for any help/advice in advance, 

Jon


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Ahhhhh!!!! 

No matter how many times I try to get my business partners to communicate this correctly, the wrong nomenclature is constantly used. 


TO CLARIFY: 

There is only one type of "Green Giant" injector. It is the Bosch part number 0280155968. *This injector flows 440cc of petrol at 3bar*. Any/all software written for the F4T and F4L is meant to be used with Green Giants. So the injectors Chris sold you are 440s. The Unitronic software for 440cc works with Green Giants. 

So you're good. You've got the right injectors. And Unitronic has a file for them. It's just not yet up on the site. 

Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Here's where the confusion comes from: Bosch rates their injectors based on weight, not volume. From their documentation: 

_Bosch fuel injectors have their flow rates defined in N-Heptane as part of 
their engineering specification_​ 
So the issue is that somewhere along the line it got missed that a given weight of N-Heptane is not the same volume of fluid as that same weight of petrol. 310 grams of N-Heptane is equivalent to 440cc. But 310 grams of petrol (if the conversion is done ignoring the Bosch documentation) works out to ~415cc. That's the root of this issue. 

Lastly, I have flow checked these injectors myself...just to be 100% certain. They flow 440cc of petrol. On the nose.


----------



## jon-vw (May 25, 2011)

You the man! 
How can I promote your business where I live in appreciation for the countless questions you've answered with patience.. (aside from word of mouth which has already begun, and the tshirt, hehe) 


Back to tech: Anyone running a Walbro 255LPH inline fuel pump with this kit? The reason I ask is my buddy is parting out his VRT and has one in mint condish, wondering if it's required for this kit with the 440cc unitronic tune, cause I can snag that off him asap if need be..


----------



## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

jon-vw said:


> You the man!
> How can I promote your business where I live in appreciation for the countless questions you've answered with patience.. (aside from word of mouth which has already begun, and the tshirt, hehe)
> 
> 
> Back to tech: Anyone running a Walbro 255LPH inline fuel pump with this kit? The reason I ask is my buddy is parting out his VRT and has one in mint condish, wondering if it's required for this kit with the 440cc unitronic tune, cause I can snag that off him asap if need be..


 i am running an inline walbro... Doug? do u think these are needed for the new 440 tunes? 

i was running lean with my 380 tune and the pump was suggested but thats probably more because of the injectors not being able to keep up.


----------



## jon-vw (May 25, 2011)

anyone with the F4T experience issues WITHOUT an aftermarket fuel pump? i didn't order one with my kit :banghead:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

My thinking is that it's always better to run larger injectors at stock pressure than to fiddle with the FPR. In high boost applications like Unitronic's software, the pump is being really challenged. That's why I encouraged them (and others) to specify higher-flowing injectors like the 440s. The bigger injectors have more "headroom", which basically means the stock pump doesn't need to be pushing so hard. So I think a supplemental pump on a 440cc setup is probably not needed. 

Todd - in the case of a 380cc setup like yours, we have logs to show they can't flow enough without a Walbro or similar. So it's good you've got one.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

i have 440s. I also have GIAC X+ currently... is there a file that uses 440s that would fit the F4h? I really dont want to have to spend money on more injectors... especially since i have the 440s sitting here... 

PS.. with 440s would i need the inline fuel pump? or is that only with the 380/TT injectors?


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_IV_GLI--1.8T/Engine/Turbo/ES6665/ 

are these the exhaust manifold nuts? 

Looking at that kit, i figure i could piece it together cheaper on ECS...


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

Gberg888GLI said:


> http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_IV_GLI--1.8T/Engine/Turbo/ES6665/
> 
> are these the exhaust manifold nuts?
> 
> Looking at that kit, i figure i could piece it together cheaper on ECS...


 
these are the ones your looking for... 

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_IV--1.8T/Exhaust/OEM/ES6398/ 


just went to pagparts and got their eurodyne 440 mafless flash from Arnold, gonna get some logging done this weekend along with a custom intake and w/m during the week... hopefully I'll have some dyno numbers up for everyone to check out fairly soon. eace:


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes chum, with 386cc injectors, making 240 bhp at 3789 rpm, then things seem to lean off big style from a fuel point of view, so need secondary fuel pump, to stop me frying pistons 

Regards Lenny


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Matoza is now at rev8 on their MkIV file and it's shaping up well. Take a look at the boost curves on a couple different customers' cars:


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

Slappy, why is boost request falling below 20 before redline? Shouldnt the request be held up to at least 7k? I know its slightly higher than stock redline but every chip has a raised redline anyway. 

Im no expert here. I currently run a k04-01 on APR ...its falls off so bad its almost pointless at redline. 

I dont know if it truly matter but I have a Neuspeed DP which is years old. Im not exacly sure of the actual size other than its bigger than stock. Stock exhaust. But as I saw on the stage one video even at near 200whp there was no real difference.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

This Motoza file is being developed as an off the shelf product. And the mods necessary for 20+ psi at redline are just too cost-prohibitive to design around. So I think the boost curve here is pretty close to the finished product... and I'd imagine is good for 240+whp.


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

slappy_dunbar said:


> This Motoza file is being developed as an off the shelf product. And the mods necessary for 20+ psi at redline are just too cost-prohibitive to design around. So I think the boost curve here is pretty close to the finished product... and I'd imagine is good for 240+whp.


 What mods are necessary? I know there would be some Involved in a stage two set up anyway ...IE 440s...exhaust..? correct? 

How is that different from the Uni stage 2+ that Checkdalevel is running? 260+ whp


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## Green_Fast (Jan 27, 2011)

opcorn:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

GTIRACER2.0t said:


> What mods are necessary? I know there would be some Involved in a stage two set up anyway ...IE 440s...exhaust..? correct?
> 
> How is that different from the Uni stage 2+ that Checkdalevel is running? 260+ whp


 Intercooling. The higher-powered F4 setups have big intercoolers or W/M as a substitute. Otherwise the pressurized air heat soaks the hardware and forces the ecu to drop timing. The Motoza file above is written for modest intercooling and has a safety margin for the heat of summer. Unitronic's file does this too: boost tapers just ahead of redline to protect against over-high IATs.


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Intercooling. The higher-powered F4 setups have big intercoolers or W/M as a substitute. Otherwise the pressurized air heat soaks the hardware and forces the ecu to drop timing. The Motoza file above is written for modest intercooling and has a safety margin for the heat of summer. Unitronic's file does this too: boost tapers just ahead of redline to protect against over-high IATs.


 Im currently running a Kinetic FMIC. Over the years ive seen many running all sorts of FMIC's from ebay versions to Eurosport or similar type set ups. Is that enough intercooling. I thought pretty much everyone upgraded to those because the stock gets heat soaked even with a k03.


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

I've been running a tyrolsport smic on my remapped K03 and now on my FT4 Bug, on normal to the odd really fast run, I usually see IATs about 9c to 12c above ambient, at 60/70 mph, and have only seen really high IATs at tracks days, which is to be expected ( once or twice a year ). In stop and go driving around town the IATs do increase, but once I start moving at any sort of speed the temps drop quickly, great intercooler for mid to high 200bhp I think, that want the standard type of look to there car 

Regards Lenny


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

I would expect that most people on this site looking to spend the kind of money for a f4h would have been modding their car initially... While i understand having a safety margin, taking a closer glance at the actual market would probably display that most people getting into this turbo have some current bolt on mods... thus, i think tuning for exhaust, a upgraded intercooler, simc or fmic so bet it, would be fine and honestly expected. 

Currently im trying to figure out what tune to get with my setup because i have a set of 440s but there is no GIAC file i know of that matches up with those injectors. GIAC has the ko4-02x file which matches nicely this turbo though, and calls for the TT injectors.


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## Low: i has it? (Dec 16, 2009)

scribe


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## Mike.Mike. (Apr 19, 2006)

So by the looks of it everyone running Uni and 386cc injectors is having to run a secondary fuel pump :/ hmm


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## Stoked_On_Spool (Mar 19, 2009)

Have the F4T kit installed and currently have my apr software running the stock program so i dont have to worry about boost spikes or the like until i have a new tune. I have ordered the green giant injectors but now i'm just waiting, trying to figure out what kind of sw to get. 

from what i've been told, the uni frankenturbo stg 2+ sw is $650 and it's between uni for me and malone or motoza (roughly 500? for stg 2+). I've just been trying to be patient so I make the right tuning choice, but it's getting a little hard waiting. I think I may just pull the plug and go with the uni sw, even tho it seems to be more expensive, but more power seems to be on tap for them at the moment. 

your thoughts FT crowd?


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## 20vGetta (Oct 8, 2006)

When I do mine, I think Im going to go with UNi


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

Stoked_On_Spool said:


> Have the F4T kit installed and currently have my apr software running the stock program so i dont have to worry about boost spikes or the like until i have a new tune. I have ordered the green giant injectors but now i'm just waiting, trying to figure out what kind of sw to get.
> 
> from what i've been told, the uni frankenturbo stg 2+ sw is $650 and it's between uni for me and malone or motoza (roughly 500? for stg 2+). I've just been trying to be patient so I make the right tuning choice, but it's getting a little hard waiting. I think I may just pull the plug and go with the uni sw, even tho it seems to be more expensive, but more power seems to be on tap for them at the moment.
> 
> your thoughts FT crowd?





20vGetta said:


> When I do mine, I think Im going to go with UNi


 wouldn't be a bad choice, their file sound pretty good... plus upgrades are always an option which is a plus... haven't ever heard of a complaint about a uni tune


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

I have a k04-02x with a Unitronic tune. I can't say I've had any good luck with it at all. The file I have is supposed to a "custom" file. I had a k04-02x file from Unitronic originally, but kept getting overboost codes and lean codes. So they made a 415cc file for me to allow for more boost and fueling... since then I've had nothing but issues though. I put a wideband in and such and nothing is at all where it should be fueling wise. I deleted evap and such and resistored them off - but it still doesn't work properly. I actually made more power with k04-02x on the Revo Stg3 k04 file. 264whp/291wtq on that file, 258whp/278wtq on the Unitronic. Drivability was also better on the Revo. I'd say to wait and buy a file that a company is putting a lot of R&D into for this turbo.

Edit: And about upgrades... the Unitronic stg2+ file is $650. If you were to want to go to a 630cc file ($890) you'd end up paying an additional $600 to upgrade. They greatly devalue what you've already purchased when you go to upgrade.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

what MAF sensor have you been running on that custom file? In what housing?


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## jon-vw (May 25, 2011)

What fuel pressure regulator are you running with the Unitronic tune?


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

slappy_dunbar said:


> what MAF sensor have you been running on that custom file? In what housing?


3" MAF housing w/1.8T sensor.



jon-vw said:


> What fuel pressure regulator are you running with the Unitronic tune?


ECS Adj FPR. Right around 3.5 bar usually. Maybe a bit higher. w/415cc injectors.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

I have 415 injectors that will be paired with the f4h... eventually. i need to find a file that would work with them though...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

B -- what EXACTLY are these 415s you speak of? Because I have a suspicion they'd flow 440cc if you put them on a flowtest bench.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

Its honestly unknown whether they are 440s or 415s. i bought them originally for a ko4-02x... but then i decided it wasnt a good idea and then this was released... so i naturally gravitated towards this kit. 

Is there a way to tell what they flow

the full story if your interested was that my friend was selling tt injectors which i bought then he wanted the tt injectors back and traded me these... told me they were 440s and then 415s... so i have no idea honestly... 

either way, im going to need some software around the 415-440 mark rather than the tt 364/386... still have no idea which one the TTs actually are because everyone says something different. 

Berg!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Injector flow rate info can get really muddied by various people's misinterpretations of Bosch's published specs. But I do know this much:

Green Giants flow 440cc of petrol at 3bar with a twin beam pattern
White Giants flow 380cc of petrol at 3bar, but in a single beam pattern (not so great for the 20V)

I know these things because I had them flow tested at a facility nearby to me here in NY.

TT225s almost certainly flow 380cc. They're rated for this and Bosch's ratings for the other two injectors (above) were spot on. Some people think they flow less, but, again, that's owing to a misunderstanding of Bosch's specification methods.

So...I recommend you get those mystery injectors flow tested. Cost is ~$10 a pop. Then you'll know what software to plan for.


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## kevinadamsvw (Oct 15, 2007)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Injector flow rate info can get really muddied by various people's misinterpretations of Bosch's published specs. But I do know this much:
> 
> Green Giants flow 440cc of petrol at 3bar with a twin beam pattern
> White Giants flow 380cc of petrol at 3bar, but in a single beam pattern (not so great for the 20V)
> ...


sounds like i need to get rid of my white giants..


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## Stoked_On_Spool (Mar 19, 2009)

slappy, so if i'm running a 4bar already, should i look in to getting other injectors instead of the green giants or would it be better just to swap out my 4bar for a 3bar and stick with the green giants?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

whenever you can comply with the tuner's fueling requirement at 3bar, go for that. It's a much better fuel rail pressure for our stock fuel pumps.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

the difference between 415s and 380s/TT injectors cant be that bad can it?

Because i may just run the injectors i have and grab the ko4 file from GIAC... then use the F4H...

is that a terrible idea?


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

Gberg888GLI said:


> the difference between 415s and 380s/TT injectors cant be that bad can it?
> 
> Because i may just run the injectors i have and grab the ko4 file from GIAC... then use the F4H...
> 
> is that a terrible idea?


Not terrible, but you will need to keep the boost in check with an mbc... methinks.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

that wouldnt be an issue to do... just set it manually to a max with a boost controller


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Gberg888GLI said:


> the difference between 415s and 380s/TT injectors cant be that bad can it?
> 
> Because i may just run the injectors i have and grab the ko4 file from GIAC... then use the F4H...
> 
> is that a terrible idea?





Gberg888GLI said:


> that wouldnt be an issue to do... just set it manually to a max with a boost controller


I think when the time comes you should just send me the injectors to test. If they really are 415cc at 3bar then I'd say you'd be perfectly fine with them on GIAC's K04-20 file. That little bit of extra capacity could be just the trick when you're boosting at red line. An MBC in parallel is also a really good idea.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

that is a good option! i figure in about a month i will be purchasing the f4h.

Quick question... how encouraged should i be to change my oil lines when i swap this turbo in?

Another one... i know there is someone who has pieced together a kit for all the leftout hardware and gaskets... that being said its another 200 bucks or so... without the optional oil lines. Why the hell is it that expensive, im pretty sure through ECS i could get it all for under 100 bucks... so is there another option besides that guys kit? 

Can you please post exactly what other hardware we will need for the install?

thank you,
Ben


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Does that $200+ kit include fuel injectors? I'll be it does, and that's why the price is where it is. Opt out of the injectors and you'll be under $100.


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Does that $200+ kit include fuel injectors? I'll be it does, and that's why the price is where it is. Opt out of the injectors and you'll be under $100.


Doug that install kit at CB Tuning has "Green Giant" advertised as 415's on their site. Just to be clear , are they truely 440's ?


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## Stoked_On_Spool (Mar 19, 2009)

Gberg888GLI said:


> that is a good option! i figure in about a month i will be purchasing the f4h.
> 
> Quick question... how encouraged should i be to change my oil lines when i swap this turbo in?
> 
> ...



This is all you're looking for then...

http://cbtuning.net/store/products.php?1143&cPath=7_9_8_20_21&sid=p04b3o1i56aslt9avekmptm5v3

you can add the oil line with a little drop down tab near the price if you want, thats an extra $130 option if you want to change it out, which he highly recommends. that physical part tho is a complete pita to try to take out tho just fyi. I tried on mine and it was ridiculous for me. lol. 

-Bret


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

GTIRACER2.0t said:


> Doug that install kit at CB Tuning has "Green Giant" advertised as 415's on their site. Just to be clear , are they truely 440's ?


Yes. CB Tuning and CTS Turbo's injectors are OEM Bosch. Flowing a true 440cc of petrol at 3bar, they are the ones to get. Pay no more than $50/pc for them wherever you go.


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

I chose to change the oil line, and am glad I did, my old one was pinched right where it does the funky turn to bolt to the turbo. The other oil line (hard line, it runs to the front of the block) is nearly impossible to change without taking the pcv system off. Don't do that one, lol. And if you do, make sure you have replacement parts for the pcv, and a new dipstick tube. 

I have to say (again) that chris at cb tuning is a great guy to deal with. The kit he pieced together is complete, and fair in it's price. You will not be lacking any nuts or bolts that may break when you try and remove them. Gaskets are in there as well. Just bite the bullet and buy it. New stuff is so much better to put together than old rotted parts.


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## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

didnt realize it came with injectors... im sorry about that... i wouldnt have complained had i known...


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

Might as well chime in here as well.

To re-confirm, the 415cc injectors I sell on the site are the 440cc replacements and are the proper injectors to run for this setup and what the tuners are basing the software on. The 440's aren't sold anymore.

If there are ever any questions on things on our site let us know. We are more than happy to explain things and answer any and all questions. If you find something cheaper let us know that also. Remember our products all currently have free shipping in the USA (I have been selling a lot to Canada so just contact us before purchase for shipping information there).

We are always available via e-mail and text message, phone is m-f 9-6 if we are able to make it to the phone in time to answer!

With injectors: http://cbtuning.net/store/products.php?875
Without injectors: http://cbtuning.net/store/products.php?1143


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## slickfisher (Oct 16, 2004)

What a cluster.


Slappy, you need to find a partner. One partner. Create software/kit to finish out your product. 

Performance for your product is all over the map. 

And so is information.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

slickfisher said:


> Performance for your product is all over the map.
> 
> And so is information.



I know what you're saying. To some of you it looks like I'm herding cats. But I expect more clarity pretty fast now. A number of solid companies want to get involved with this product, we just need to arrive at a consensus for a tuning strategy.

dh


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Its simple... Run a ko4-2xx file with appropriate hardware for the f4t..

And run a gt28 file with appropriate hardware for the f23..

There are already plenty of files out there that would work great..


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## jennekke (Jan 8, 2010)

There's also people, like myself willing to run another tune that wasn't made for the turbo. All the information out there was to make the best out of what we had. 

We ran stage 1, stage 2, or stock. Different FPR/injector combos. Inline fuel pumps or not. 

The thing to keep in mind with the turbo is it can be used as a stock replacement. You just get the benefit of having a bit more headroom tuning your car later on if you're into that kind of thing. It's a better deal than a drop in k03s OE replacement or a k04-001.


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't see how hard it is to tune properly for a turbo this size...

Its not rocket size. All major companies should have a file for FrankenTurbo's by now.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

DJ Gonzo said:


> I don't see how hard it is to tune properly for a turbo this size...
> 
> Its not rocket size. All major companies should have a file for FrankenTurbo's by now.


They already did before it was introduced... The files dont care what turbo is on the car..


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> They already did before it was introduced... The files dont care what turbo is on the car..


They actually do when it comes to the wastegate spring. If you are willing to run a manual boost controller then it doesn't matter. Our cars running Unitronic use no boost controller, just stock n75 :thumbup:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> They already did before it was introduced... The files dont care what turbo is on the car..


I've gone through 2 different software companies on my k04-02x. I still don't like any of the results I've had. And now I have a built engine with an AEB head, etc... and I'm really SOL. I hate these stupid canned tunes. All of the k04 files that currently exist can't handle what I have. I don't even think a GT28 file would. I feel like the same may happen for the f23 or f4h. Hopefully someone figures it out.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Yeah we definitely need a proper tune...my GIAC K04 file works pretty decently, but i'm still not a huge fan of it...i'm sure we can get a better tune and it would help numbers and over feel without a doubt

EDIT: I'm also pretty up there in elevation, I feel the tune doesn't do so great for correction


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

04VDubGLI said:


> I've gone through 2 different software companies on my k04-02x. I still don't like any of the results I've had. And now I have a built engine with an AEB head, etc... and I'm really SOL. I hate these stupid canned tunes. All of the k04 files that currently exist can't handle what I have. I don't even think a GT28 file would. I feel like the same may happen for the f23 or f4h. Hopefully someone figures it out.


The Unitronic tune on the Ft's works well on every car we have had in-house. Your car is another story so I don't wanna hear it haha - but I'll agree software tuning adjustability on end-user side is what holds the community back some compared to other cars.


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

sfajk1 said:


> They actually do when it comes to the wastegate spring. If you are willing to run a manual boost controller then it doesn't matter. Our cars running Unitronic use no boost controller, just stock n75 :thumbup:


 :thumbup:

Plus optimized timing maps and can smooth out some parts of the tune since every turbo has different spool characteristics .


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

slickfisher said:


> What a cluster.
> 
> 
> Slappy, you need to find a partner. One partner. Create software/kit to finish out your product.
> ...


* 
I know what you're saying. To some of you it looks like I'm herding cats. But I expect more clarity pretty fast now. A number of solid companies want to get involved with this product, we just need to arrive at a consensus for a tuning strategy.

dh *
So far Unitronic is the best option but Doug is giving us many choices which I think is great. How many K03/K04 tunes out there are there for the stock turbos? 
Why should Doug alienate any company? Ultimately we as the consumer will win because of competition:thumbup:
I'll be running this turbo soon. Already ordered:thumbup:


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## sponcar (Feb 5, 2010)

Sinner44 said:


> Yeah we definitely need a proper tune...my GIAC K04 file works pretty decently, but i'm still not a huge fan of it...i'm sure we can get a better tune and it would help numbers and over feel without a doubt
> 
> EDIT: I'm also pretty up there in elevation, I feel the tune doesn't do so great for correction


wait.! do you have a F4T with giac k04 file? does it feels the difference between the k03 and f4t with the giac software?

well I really would like the f23 but i already have my giac tune. I've seen the video of the f23 with eurodyno base file and so far thats my goal. 280whp-300whp.. BUT if the giac file could take me on the 250whp with any of these turbos i wouldnt complain either...

what you guys think?


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

sponcar said:


> wait.! do you have a F4T with giac k04 file? does it feels the difference between the k03 and f4t with the giac software?
> 
> well I really would like the f23 but i already have my giac tune. I've seen the video of the f23 with eurodyno base file and so far thats my goal. 280whp-300whp.. BUT if the giac file could take me on the 250whp with any of these turbos i wouldnt complain either...
> 
> what you guys think?


Yes I have the f4t and the giac K04-23/K04-20 done from AWE...and it's done on my AWP motor.. and it definitely pulls harder...i need to throw my MBC today because i've been getting some boost issues...once i do that i'll let you know if there is a difference...also I may switch form the 4 bar down to the 3.5...seems to run really rich...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

04VDubGLI said:


> I've gone through 2 different software companies on my k04-02x. I still don't like any of the results I've had. And now I have a built engine with an AEB head, etc... and I'm really SOL. I hate these stupid canned tunes. All of the k04 files that currently exist can't handle what I have. I don't even think a GT28 file would. I feel like the same may happen for the f23 or f4h. Hopefully someone figures it out.


Why aren't you flashing over to the new 440cc Stage 2+ file? You probably just need more fuel.


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Why aren't you flashing over to the new 440cc Stage 2+ file? You probably just need more fuel.


We may try that if he wants to, but he has deletes, cams, and other mods that cause problems as well. He really needs a custom dyno tune to be right and it is a one off setup.


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi guys, as some of you know I have fitted the F4h to my Bug, was lookin at the SEM inlet mani, and was wondering if it was worth considering for this turbo, or would it just be overkill, your thoughts please

Regards Lenny


ps I'm currently running 386cc, with 440cc available if needed, JBS performance exhaust mani, full milltek exhaust including sport cat, forge 007 DV, Bosch 044 fuel pump, 3" MAF with TIP to suit and 18T sensor, tyrolsport SMIC.


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Hi guys, as some of you know I have fitted the F4h to my Bug, was lookin at the SEM inlet mani, and was wondering if it was worth considering for this turbo, or would it just be overkill, your thoughts please
> 
> Regards Lenny
> 
> ...


I would personally consider a proper front mount if at all possible and/or water meth injection. The SEM intake is very nice, but also probably a bit overkill for this setup. I'm assuming you would be getting a bigger throttle body with that as well - not sure what you are using for tuning, but you might want to consult whoever is doing that for you.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I'd vote for intercooling or W/M over an aftermarket intake manifold too.


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

sfajk1 said:


> I would personally consider a proper front mount if at all possible and/or water meth injection. The SEM intake is very nice, but also probably a bit overkill for this setup. I'm assuming you would be getting a bigger throttle body with that as well - not sure what you are using for tuning, but you might want to consult whoever is doing that for you.





[email protected] said:


> I'd vote for intercooling or W/M over an aftermarket intake manifold too.


You guys might want to look at the IAT's of the Tyrolsport before telling him to get a fmic. Not to mention this is a bug, so its not so simple or clean.


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

cincyTT said:


> You guys might want to look at the IAT's of the Tyrolsport before telling him to get a fmic. Not to mention this is a bug, so its not so simple or clean.


I have seen them and I know it is a bug. Hence saying "if at all possible". Regardless, I would probably recommend the WMI first since he already has an upgraded smic - so maybe I should have posted it in a different order. I haven't seen any sidemount yet that I am as happy with as a true FMIC - not to say that they don't work well enough for certain situations.


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

sfajk1 said:


> not to say that they don't work well enough for certain situations.


They either work or they dont. If these turbos really are more efficient, they would make less heat. Plus these have been proven more than enough for bigger than a stock turbo with proper ducting. So again, need to see his iat's before telling him to dump his $700 smic for something that will get him nothing.


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## sfajk1 (Dec 31, 2006)

cincyTT said:


> They either work or they dont.


I don't want to get into any argument or change topic too much, but this is untrue. Different intercoolers work better than others and there are a lot of factors involved in that - and I think you know that. Depending how much heat you are creating, ambient temperatures, etc. determines how much cooling you need from the intercooler. Also airflow to the core and the efficiency of the core play a role as well.

Regardless, the point was that better cooling solutions would be better things to look into before spending so much money on an intake manifold that may not work well depending on his tuning - not saying "Go buy a fmic now".

I'll leave things at that on my end.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

The Tyrolsport is one of the few sidemount intercoolers proven to work, and work well.. Guys have used them successfully with gt2871 turbo's.. It can def handle this...


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

I second the w/m...i'm running the dual nozzle setup on my F4t setup and it works very well...I installed an MBC this morning and most my issues seemed to be cleared up...I was getting misfires higher up in the rpm range, but I re-adapted the ECU and it seems to be running pretty good for now.

I'll take some IAT data running the stock intercooler and the dual nozzle w/m on 60cc nozzles on the f4t when I get some time next week...but i suspect that it should be fairly low. with an upgraded sidemount they'd be even lower...i wouldnt suspect you'd need a fmic....a good side mount should work fine..


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Many thanks for your prompt replies guys, yea might be better lookin at WMI instead of the SEM.

Regards Lenny


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Yeah i run the dual nozzle on my stock smic and it runs great...but i'll get some hard data as soon as i get my vagcom in


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

:thumbup::beer::beer::thumbup:


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## sponcar (Feb 5, 2010)

Sinner44 said:


> Yes I have the f4t and the giac K04-23/K04-20 done from AWE...and it's done on my AWP motor.. and it definitely pulls harder...i need to throw my MBC today because i've been getting some boost issues...once i do that i'll let you know if there is a difference...also I may switch form the 4 bar down to the 3.5...seems to run really rich...


I'll be lokking forward for that info. I want to give giac a try, I heard giac and revo were the best option to tweak with big turbo kit bacck in time..

I send you a friend request btw


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Sinner44 said:


> Yes I have the f4t and the giac K04-23/K04-20 done from AWE..also I may switch form the 4 bar down to the 3.5...seems to run really rich...


Why are you running anything other than the 3bar fpr / 380cc injectors that are called for by the GIAC K04 file? Do you have a special AWE Tuning version?


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Why are you running anything other than the 3bar fpr / 380cc injectors that are called for by the GIAC K04 file? Do you have a special AWE Tuning version?


Not that I am aware of...but I will throw the 3 back in and re-adapt the ECU it should help with the MBC...the last time I tried the OEM 3bar it was missing much worse... but now that things seem to be running a bit better than I will definitely give the 3bar another go...


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

sponcar said:


> I'll be lokking forward for that info. I want to give giac a try, I heard giac and revo were the best option to tweak with big turbo kit bacck in time..
> 
> I send you a friend request btw


Request accepted or at least should be haha... the MBC seems to do a much better job at regulating boost (imagine that)... I am neither spiking really high nor do I have fluctuation in the boost...and once I did that along with re-adapting the ECU, it seemed to run much better... 

Currently I have the Forge UNOS ball spring MBC hooked from the charge pipe to the wastegate then n75 is still in the TIP, but with the other two nipples plugged... If there is a more recommended setup I'd be willing to adjust the setup...

Also, I need to swap back to the 3 bar FPR per Doug's advice... and once that is done I'll again have more info


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

i was just reading this and theres ALOT of ****ing information on here. i mean. holy ****.
i didnt catch the part about the lastest news on the FrankenTUNE.
what the word with that now?
any updates?

opcorn:


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Why are you running anything other than the 3bar fpr / 380cc injectors that are called for by the GIAC K04 file? Do you have a special AWE Tuning version?


3bar seems to be running much better than the 4 bar! I need to do some longer runs, but I'm thinking that it's going to work out a lot better than the 4bar! Thanks Doug.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Sinner44 said:


> 3bar seems to be running much better than the 4 bar! I need to do some longer runs, but I'm thinking that it's going to work out a lot better than the 4bar! Thanks Doug.



Can you log it? It'd be really interesting to see how a stock K04-02x performs on the GIAC file designed for it.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Yeah I'll get on that as soon as I get the vagcom in...my old off-brand cable took a dive awhile ago and I'm just getting around to getting the real thing... should hopefully be in around Thursday...I hope...seeing as how they are in PA and I'm in NV lol


But I am not running a K04-2X ....I'm running the F4T on the GIAC K04-2X file..if that's what you were thinking...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Doh! Well then I *definitely* want to see logs!


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Absolutely


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## Mike.Mike. (Apr 19, 2006)

Hey doug..Which blocks would you like to see logged?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I generally like to do it this way:

002-033-031 for fueling
003-020 for ignition timing
118-034 for turbo and intercooling

Post 'em up!


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

I'll post mine up, but I wont be able to take logs until Monday...Ross-tech was slacking on getting the cable shipped...also the MAF that FT sent me was bad from the start so I'm going to have to get a new TT225 MAF here soon.. I need the TT sensor per GIAC...but they're not cheap... about 150ish (think i can find one much cheaper though)... so if i do take logs monday they'll be off the O2 sensor and not using the MAF...so they wont be the best...


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## CT.WREKT-1 (Jan 25, 2006)

one.fast.gti said:


> Snapping rods, from the experience I have had/heard about, happens at low rpms with high boost spikes. Low end torque is where the stock rods are weak. we are keeping an eye on the torque spikes and levels. Bottom line, is the turbo capable of snapping rods? Most likely.... Depending on the persons build and hardware list, there will be an appropriate stage to go with. and of course the closer we get to that stage, the more we will know.
> 
> UPDATE FOLKS!!! I WILL POST LOGS AND DATA LATER THIS WEEK AFTER DAVE AND I GO THROUGH ALL OF IT..... UP UNTIL ABOUT 2 DAYS AGO, WE WERE WORKING ON FUELING TABLES.... FROM NOW ON ITS THE FUN STUFF


ABSOLUTELY!!!!Happened to me. Had a bad spike in lower RPMS. everything kicked in on cue except it wasn't dialed in just right. BANG! POW! CRUNCH! rumble rumble rumble, kaput. Bad news. But now I have a built bottom end and get to play EVEN BIGGER...maybe


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

CT.WREKT-1 said:


> But now I have a built bottom end and get to play EVEN BIGGER...maybe


F23!!


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

If anyone is interested I did a few logs yesterday logging my IAT and With ambient temp around 80F I hold around 59C at cruise 75-85mph....doesnt peak much above that...but I have the Dual Nozzle kit with 60cc nozzles one post TB and one Pre-TB starting injection at 10psi and full at 15psi and on...when injected I got temps spiking all the way down to 12C...I'm not sure how reliable the measures are from vagcom, but that's what the spikes read....forgot to mention on stock SMIC

Also Doug if you're still interested in getting my logs for the GIAC K04-2x file on my f4t setup I can do that monday...I ordered a new MAF last night..should be in monday... so once it's in I can get you some logs... Unless you'd like logs of it running off the O2 sensor


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

logs with the MAF connected would be great. Tx


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Sounds good I'll post them either late monday night or tuesday morning...or if you'd prefer I can email


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

finally got to hit the dyno with my hybrid, f23 compressor wheel in a k04, clipped exhaust wheel, ported, high flow 034 motorsports exhaust mani, meth, genesis 415 injectors on 3.5 bar fpr (440's) on a eurodyne 440 mafless file... 

283whp and 293ft/lbs on 20lbs of boost... and stock internals  which is going to have to change soon (I lowered the boost a bit, 293ft/lbs kinda made me nervous)

I'll post the graphs and such when I get some more time, just want to throw a huuge thanks to (Spartiati) for the help and even doug who worked with him on this setup when it was on spartiatis car.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

283 whp on an unbuilt, small-port motor is really good stuff. I'd love to see your dyno graph. Put it up there!


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

What about those dyno results ?? 

Regards Lenny


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

still waiting for them to get emailed to me, hopefully this week some time


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## mcgyver7923 (Oct 16, 2003)

opcorn:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

bump for those plots... and logs if you have them please


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Gonna run some fresh logs tomorrow and post em to contribute:beer:


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

stiiiiiill waiting for my dyno stuff to be emailed to me


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

This is what the Unitronic Stage 2+ 440cc file is doing for me.
Running a mbc at 22psi or so...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> This is what the Unitronic Stage 2+ 440cc file is doing for me.
> Running a mbc at 22psi or so...


its pulling a lot of fueling out is'nt it?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> its pulling a lot of fueling out is'nt it?


Yep.. the ECU is pulling a good bit of fuel and the mixture is still a bit rich.
But check the 222g/s peak....that's moving some air:laugh:
I need to try and do a little something about the richness for sure...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> Yep.. the ECU is pulling a good bit of fuel and the mixture is still a bit rich.
> But check the 222g/s peak....that's moving some air:laugh:
> I need to try and do a little something about the richness for sure...


If maf scaling is to be believed it is nice airflow.
hybrid K03's here make the same airflows.... but their power levels are [email protected] usually unless aided by wmi and we have got one to [email protected]


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> If maf scaling is to be believed it is nice airflow.
> hybrid K03's here make the same airflows.... but their power levels are [email protected] usually unless aided by wmi and we have got one to [email protected]


Wow...nice numbers out of a KO3:thumbup:
At this point we are definitely thinking that the airflow numbers are correct


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> Wow...nice numbers out of a KO3:thumbup:
> At this point we are definitely thinking that the airflow numbers are correct


just to confirm... K03 I describe being hybrids. not k03s
similar in concept to F4T hybrid

where atw figures are reported on US hybrids on US dyno's (dynojets etc) they equate to flywheel figures that I see over here. (13-15% higher figures vs what I see)

We have been playing with a larger hybrid K03, which is in reality a hybrid K04, inside a K03 wrapper.. From this one, I see peak of 315bhp from 1.6bar peak, holding 1.4 at 7krpm - 245g/s, but does run wmi also.. which helps.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> just to confirm... K03 I describe being hybrids. not k03s
> similar in concept to F4T hybrid
> 
> where atw figures are reported on US hybrids on US dyno's (dynojets etc) they equate to flywheel figures that I see over here. (13-15% higher figures vs what I see)
> ...


Very respectable even from a hybrid:laugh::thumbup:
I'm gonna throw some water/meth at my setup and head to the dyno here in the next week or two and see what I can squeeze out of it...


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## Jmacc (Jul 6, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> Yep.. the ECU is pulling a good bit of fuel and the mixture is still a bit rich.
> But check the 222g/s peak....that's moving some air:laugh:
> I need to try and do a little something about the richness for sure...


I have been reading your other threads and i know you called and checked but since it is calling for so much boost and fuel maybe they loaded the 440cc big turbo file that uni has by mistake. Its weird because everyone else who is running this file is fine.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Jmacc said:


> I have been reading your other threads and i know you called and checked but since it is calling for so much boost and fuel maybe they loaded the 440cc big turbo file that uni has by mistake. Its weird because everyone else who is running this file is fine.


Yeah I am going to keep pursuing this issue with Uni. They are not being the most helpful I've ever dealt with. That was my exact thought..I got the 440cc BT file by accident. The guy who is heading up the uni/ft file so to speak says it is impossible. I'm not sure if he is saying that because there would be extra steps to do the big turbo file and he didn't do those extra steps or what. I do know from searching around that I am not the only one that has had some problems with the file. It may be working out for a lot of people but there are some out there that are having to adjust the overboost out via the wastegate or a MBC. I think that some people aren't giving feed back to Uni and are just fixing the issue. It would be nice if someone running this file would post a current log or two. A lot of people who have looked at the logs say they look different then the other stage 2+ 440cc files they have seen and I am sure Doug at FT has seen quite a lot.:beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Here are some more if any one is interested...


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## kevinadamsvw (Oct 15, 2007)

what kinda of intake air temps should i be seeing?

its in the low 90s right now... on 22psi its between 45-50C after a few pulls


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Can you post up block 118? This'd tell us whether your intercooling is up to snuff.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Here are some 118 logs I took after beating up on the car REALLY HARD. I'd like some honest opinions and thoughts as to how this compares to others. If your gonna talk ish about how high my temps are then post up your logs and let me see what the low low really looks like...anyway... this is running a forced performance side mount that I got back in 03 that I had on a t3 super 60-1 setup with another ic running a dual side mount set up. It is no longer made and it is sorta sought after since it is bigger then most side mounts made these days. It never really seems to get heat soaked, it will always drop down to 48 pretty quick. My plan is to keep this set up and throw some Water/meth at it for now. None the less the butt dyno is having a good time:thumbup::laugh::beer:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

First log... high temp of 172.4.
Second log... high temp of 194.

Truthfully, the timing doesn't look awful given the horrendous intake air temps. 









T_in : intercooler inlet temperature (or post compressor temperature). 
T_out : intercooler outlet temperature.
T_ambient : ambient temperature. 

Let's say for an example that your ambient air temp there is 90*F.
Your T_out is 194*F.
Obviously this means that your IC is terribly inefficient, or you're working that turbo WAYYYYY too hard. For 50% efficiency (which most people shoot for 70-80% ideally) - 

T_in would have to be 246*F. If you try to up efficiencies then the turbo-outlet temps get absolutely insane. Obviously, inversely, if you decrease efficiencies then the temps start going down. I'd be interested for you to do a log and then throw an infared heat gun at the turbo-outlet pipe immediately after parking (as to prevent radiant heat from the manifold affecting the reading). That is using a worst-case scenario. After all, it looks like a 4 gear pull there - that's going to make some heat. But even in the shorter pulls you're starting to creep up towards that 170*F mark. Just some food for thought.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> Here are some 118 logs I took after beating up on the car REALLY HARD. I'd like some honest opinions and thoughts as to how this compares to others. If your gonna talk ish about how high my temps are then post up your logs and let me see what the low low really looks like...anyway... this is running a forced performance side mount that I got back in 03 that I had on a t3 super 60-1 setup with another ic running a dual side mount set up. It is no longer made and it is sorta sought after since it is bigger then most side mounts made these days. It never really seems to get heat soaked, it will always drop down to 48 pretty quick. My plan is to keep this set up and throw some Water/meth at it for now. None the less the butt dyno is having a good time:thumbup::laugh::beer:


I know I said in the past that I'd leave all FrankenTurbo threads alone because Doug seem to get a little defensive when faced with constructive coments that aren't sugar coated. And before this get taken out of proportion, I am big fan of the option FrankenTurbo provides the community and even plan to run this turbo (hardware only because the software is all over the place) when my K04 decides it had enough. 

Twopnt016v, your IATs are insanely high! If you look closely, anything higher than 60 celc registered by the manifold temp sensor the ecu takes action and pulls substantial timing to protect your wallet. I'd suggest you reconsider your air charge cooling strategy so you keep the temp registered under that 60 celc whenever you're at WOT.
A more efficient intercooler or chemical cooling would go a long way at helping your situation!

This is IAT at 33 psi on a stock K04 pushed past its common efficiency range (pushing a lot of hot air), the chemical cooling of water injection got the charge temps back to ambient (85F or 29.5 celc)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## carcraz (Jan 25, 2011)

madmax199,
any idea on wat software to get for the FT-4L. yes i agreed with you, the software is all over the place


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

simply too hot indeed.
you need to revisit the charge cooling of this... fmic, wmi both etc

as said, for the temps its seeing the CFs are pretty reasonable.. and will nett down to low if in fact zero with wmi and efficient intercooling. duty cycle is max'd out at the 1.4bar which is normal on these k03 hybrids in my experience.

sort out your cooling or turn it down a bit is my advise


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

04VDubGLI said:


> First log... high temp of 172.4.
> Second log... high temp of 194.
> 
> Truthfully, the timing doesn't look awful given the horrendous intake air temps.
> ...





madmax199 said:


> I know I said in the past that I'd leave all FrankenTurbo threads alone because Doug seem to get a little defensive when faced with constructive coments that aren't sugar coated. And before this get taken out of proportion, I am big fan of the option FrankenTurbo provides the community and even plan to run this turbo (hardware only because the software is all over the place) when my K04 decides it had enough.
> 
> Twopnt016v, your IATs are insanely high! If you look closely, anything higher than 60 celc registered by the manifold temp sensor the ecu takes action and pulls substantial timing to protect your wallet. I'd suggest you reconsider your air charge cooling strategy so you keep the temp registered under that 60 celc whenever you're at WOT.
> A more efficient intercooler or chemical cooling would go a long way at helping your situation!
> ...





badger5 said:


> simply too hot indeed.
> you need to revisit the charge cooling of this... fmic, wmi both etc
> 
> as said, for the temps its seeing the CFs are pretty reasonable.. and will nett down to low if in fact zero with wmi and efficient intercooling. duty cycle is max'd out at the 1.4bar which is normal on these k03 hybrids in my experience.
> ...



To be fair I had run the car really hard before running these logs. I had made about 4 WOT 3rd gear runs and then went down a "fun" road by my house that is about 5min each way. The "fun" road I pretty much ran WOT in every gear the whole way. Then I did a few more WOT 3rd and 4th gear pulls, then took these logs. These logs did have some 4th gear and one was 1-4th. That being said..that is not the norm for the way anyones car is pushed regularly. I really wanted to see how the IC was holding up after being hammered on. I ran a log this morning after doing a little spirited driving and max temp was 66c at 6500rpm. The graph that max posted has got to be with WMI from the beginning right? My intake temp was 30c when i started my car this morning so I don't see how it is possible to run a K04 at 33psi and only have intake temps to 39c before WMI. 

Does 66c at 6500rpm seem descent to you guys after a little spirited driving? It is about 90 amb temp right now. I am really looking to buy a WMI kit in a week or so and Im planning on sticking with this IC for now. Maybe those werent the best logs to post since the car NEVER gets driven that hard but like I said I wanted to see how things looked after the IC had taken some beating. Thanks for the input guys! Thanks for the equation 04VDubGLI. 

I still would like to see some logs of other FT users with whatever IC set up they are running.....come on guys...POST EM UP:beer:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> To be fair I had run the car really hard before running these logs. I had made about 4 WOT 3rd gear runs and then went down a "fun" road by my house that is about 5min each way. The "fun" road I pretty much ran WOT in every gear the whole way. Then I did a few more WOT 3rd and 4th gear pulls, then took these logs. These logs did have some 4th gear and one was 1-4th. That being said..that is not the norm for the way anyones car is pushed regularly. I really wanted to see how the IC was holding up after being hammered on. I ran a log this morning after doing a little spirited driving and max temp was 66c at 6500rpm. The graph that max posted has got to be with WMI from the beginning right? My intake temp was 30c when i started my car this morning so I don't see how it is possible to run a K04 at 33psi and only have intake temps to 39c before WMI.
> 
> Does 66c at 6500rpm seem descent to you guys after a little spirited driving? It is about 90 amb temp right now. I am really looking to buy a WMI kit in a week or so and Im planning on sticking with this IC for now. Maybe those werent the best logs to post since the car NEVER gets driven that hard but like I said I wanted to see how things looked after the IC had taken some beating. Thanks for the input guys! Thanks for the equation 04VDubGLI.
> 
> I still would like to see some logs of other FT users with whatever IC set up they are running.....come on guys...POST EM UP:beer:


OIn cars here with efficient intercoolers, on the dyno (worse than on the road) I see 10 degree above ambient start temps at the end of the pulls.. On WMI the temps drop down below ambient momentarily then climb back to the start point give or take a degree. 30'c Temps on 1.5bar boost on K04 hybrids as an exmaple.

your intercooler setup is not even in that league of efficiency by the logs you have. Sure it was heat soaked but thats the point it had heat soaked and was'nt recovering well.

Cool it better and you will be all the better for it - imho


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> OIn cars here with efficient intercoolers, on the dyno (worse than on the road) I see 10 degree above ambient start temps at the end of the pulls.. On WMI the temps drop down below ambient momentarily then climb back to the start point give or take a degree. 30'c Temps on 1.5bar boost on K04 hybrids as an exmaple.
> 
> your intercooler setup is not even in that league of efficiency by the logs you have. Sure it was heat soaked but thats the point it had heat soaked and was'nt recovering well.
> 
> Cool it better and you will be all the better for it - imho


I know the dyno is worse then the road but I doubt is worse then going out and pushing your car to the max for 30min and then testing the IC efficiency.
I saw a 4-6 degree increase driving on the highway going 75mph off boost for the most part. Can the intercooler be that inefficient??? 
Are you saying that 66c at 6500rpm at 90amb temp is way high?


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

What type of intercooler are you running? bar or tube? I have a front mounted tube and fin and am seeing excessive heat soaking. I am currently looking for a bar and fin style to help it along with water injection.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> I know the dyno is worse then the road but I doubt is worse then going out and pushing your car to the max for 30min and then testing the IC efficiency.
> I saw a 4-6 degree increase driving on the highway going 75mph off boost for the most part. Can the intercooler be that inefficient???
> Are you saying that 66c at 6500rpm at 90amb temp is way high?


yes - its that high

my example of dyno is worst case and on the road the car does'nt leave 30'c temps ever...
your temps are simply too high


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

maniakmax1788 said:


> What type of intercooler are you running? bar or tube? I have a front mounted tube and fin and am seeing excessive heat soaking. I am currently looking for a bar and fin style to help it along with water injection.


Mine is a bar and fin type. When this intercooler came out it was sought after because it had a bigger core and when tested on the dyno it was holding up better then front mounts that it was compared to. This was independent data too not from the manufacture. Even today this intercooler is sought after by people who want a better side mount as its better then the forge and the eurojet side mount. If the intercooler isn't being efficient for this application then there is nothing I can do other then get a different one. I refuse to buy a front mount and run into the same problem so I would be looking to see some hard data from someone who is running a FT and has these supposed 40c intake temps. I will definitely be going WMI first....


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## RDE38 (Aug 16, 2001)

IATs are not going to be that low when it's 100 degrees outside. Ambient temps just idling will be close to 50 degrees C. I'd say add a water-meth kit and call it a day.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

.:Ryan99:. said:


> IATs are not going to be that low when it's 100 degrees outside. Ambient temps just idling will be close to 50 degrees C. I'd say add a water-meth kit and call it a day.


:thumbup: exactly what i was thinking.:beer:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

.:Ryan99:. said:


> IATs are not going to be that low when it's 100 degrees outside. Ambient temps just idling will be close to 50 degrees C. I'd say add a water-meth kit and call it a day.


38*C = 100*F
12*C = 54*F. 
So that's quite a bit of a difference. If it's 90* (32.2) outside then expecting 40*C IATs is not unreasonable at all. Honestly, at cruising speeds 40*C IATs should be seen with 100*F AITs. 

Honestly, I recall back in the day there being a bunch of testing on SMICs... I don't care what anyone says, cooling is a lot about surface area (among density of the core, proper volume, etc... just speaking generically here). No matter how much a SMIC tries it will never be able to create the surface area of a FMIC. Volume... sure... SA no. I'd be highly skeptical of anything that says a SMIC of similiar quality core is anywhere near as good as a FMIC of the same quality... even if they were similiarly volumed (or whatever the word would be). Of course given the same relative air flow.


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## RDE38 (Aug 16, 2001)

It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Take a piece of metal and set it outside in 100 degree weather for a couple of hours. Think about a wrench sitting out in the sun. I guarantee you when you go to pick it back up it will be hotter then 100 degrees.


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## JWoody (May 17, 2006)

Here are some logs I did awhile back in my build Thread. The car is about to flip 150K, turbo was installed at 137K. W/M installed at 138K. I'm still running the BETA software, no issues. No MBC. Just fine and dandy. When the weather cools, I'm heading back to the Dyno to capture the +.75 Timing and maybe do a run or two at +1.5. Doug has every one of my logs as does UNI when we were testing the setup. I'm running the Eurojet SMIC with a vented wheel well liner, phenolic spacer with the ABD IM, stock motor. No rods or AEB head. All runs in 4th from 2K to the limiter.

I swapped out the BKR7E's about a month ago. They were at .27 gap. Ran them for 9K miles. They were replaced with BKR8IEX's at .25-.26 gap. No issues. Timing looked to be slightly better. Not by much.










-J

This was before W/M.










After W/M.


















And finally here is a comparison run after bumping timing .+75 which it still is to this day some 10K miles later. The upper part is the Timing Advance, the lower is just the stock file.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

^^^^Thanks for posting the logs JWOODY:thumbup::beer:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

.:Ryan99:. said:


> It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Take a piece of metal and set it outside in 100 degree weather for a couple of hours. Think about a wrench sitting out in the sun. I guarantee you when you go to pick it back up it will be hotter then 100 degrees.


While that's true, we're not worried about idling log IATs. Whenever air moves across the IC it cools it via forced convection. That's the only reason to bother having an IC. If you are not stopped in traffic then your IATs should be basically AIT. Typically right at atmospheric pressure (i.e. 0 on a boost gauge) you'll see that as the case. While heat soaking does occur, the point is still the same. And the surface area of the object directly correlates to it's ability to convect. Another factor being the amount of "fresh"/"cooled" air traveling across the object.


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## JWoody (May 17, 2006)

Twopnt016v said:


> ^^^^Thanks for posting the logs JWOODY:thumbup::beer:


 Hey man no worries. I'm still watching all these FT Threads to see where things are going. I picked up a Buell in the beginning of summer so I havn't been paying too much attention. 

The only way to really get this setup going strong and consistent is with the best cooling you can get. I think W/M clearly shows that. Your EGT's are prolly pretty high at the exhaust mani also I bet. 

As an FYI when we first put it on RAI's Mustang Dyno with a full fans running, she hit 99C after 4-5 runs. Thats with no W/M. Very scary. HOT! Dyno runs at NGP never got about 35C and we did 10 minute cool downs between each run and that was with W/M. I got in 5 altogether that day back in April.

-J


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

JWoody said:


> Hey man no worries. I'm still watching all these FT Threads to see where things are going. I picked up a Buell in the beginning of summer so I havn't been paying too much attention.
> 
> The only way to really get this setup going strong and consistent is with the best cooling you can get. I think W/M clearly shows that. Your EGT's are prolly pretty high at the exhaust mani also I bet.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that extra information. I agree my EGT's are probably pretty high as well. I ran a few more logs on the way home and they never got close to what they did last night after running it hard. What type of nozzle set up are you running?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

.:Ryan99:. said:


> IATs are not going to be that low when it's 100 degrees outside. Ambient temps just idling will be close to 50 degrees C. I'd say add a water-meth kit and call it a day.


add a phenolic insulator to reduce the intake "reported" temps also


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> add a phenolic insulator to reduce the intake "reported" temps also


I understand how a phenolic insulator works but how would that change "reported" temps? Would it be the sensor would be sitting in a cooler housing since the manifold is now a little cooler because it is spaced off the engine so the reading would go down some?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> I understand how a phenolic insulator works but how would that change "reported" temps? Would it be the sensor would be sitting in a cooler housing since the manifold is now a little cooler because it is spaced off the engine so the reading would go down some?


yes.
sensor currently lives in a hot oven..


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

Twopnt016v said:


> I understand how a phenolic insulator works but how would that change "reported" temps? Would it be the sensor would be sitting in a cooler housing since the manifold is now a little cooler because it is spaced off the engine so the reading would go down some?


i am using the 034 phenolic transitional spacer between my AWP head and AGU intake manifold.

It keeps a lot of the engine heat from being conducted into the intake manifold. Your IAT sensor is more likely to give a false reading if your intake manifold is blazing hot because is grabbing heat off your cylinder head.

FYI when the temperature is about 85 and the the humidity is above 90s even my intake manifold is too hot to even touch. This is with running a front mount and phenolic spacer.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Hey guys!! Help me out the water meth kit. I'm trying to gather my facts and buy this kit. I was going to go with the snow stage 2 boost cooler kit. I was looking into running a dual nozzle kit but when I called snow they said don't run a dual kit. They recommend running one 365 nozzle for my application. I explained that most people were running 2 nozzles, one after the intercooler and one after the throttle body in a plate. He said there is no benefit from running two nozzles like that. He said if the don't have a special solenoid then the plate after the throttle body being subject to vac will end up spraying into the engine the entire time. I also told him I was going to run the washer fluid res and it would be above the nozzle so he said I needed to buy a special solenoid for that so gravity doesn't force fluid into the motor. He said if the car is parked for a few days it can fill the motor up with fluid. Before talking to him I was going to run a dual set up with the throttle body plate and a 100 and 225 nozzle. Any help is greatly appreciated!!:beer:

Also if I get the stage 2 kit that is set up for one nozzle and then I buy the usrt dual kit as seen here
http://www.ngpracing.com/store/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=7013 will I need other items like hose and t's to split the single nozzle line into a dual nozzle set up?


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

I run the snow stage 2 dual nozzle with the 100 and 225 and it works great... varying the distance of the nozzles and positions vary which effect or how they will affect the mixture into the air... at least from what I have read and been told.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Sinner44 said:


> I run the snow stage 2 dual nozzle with the 100 and 225 and it works great... varying the distance of the nozzles and positions vary which effect or how they will affect the mixture into the air... at least from what I have read and been told.


Thanks for the input! I have read a few people that are running the FT are running the dual set up with the 100 and 225 nozzles. I talked to Scott at USRT and they are awesome in the help department. Snow has no clue what is going on obviously. Scott recommend... "100cc for placement immediately after the intercooler and a 60cc for use in the TB spacer plate. You’ll probably need to turn the pump pressure up a bit to get enough flow, but the droplet atomization will be superior to going with a 2x 100cc setup and less than standard pressure".

What I most likely will do is go with what USRT recommended for the time being. Since I am buying the dual nozzle kit from USRT I will get the 60 and 100 from them and then get a 225 nozzle with the snow kit in case I want to got the 100 and 225 in the future.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Sinner44 said:


> I run the snow stage 2 dual nozzle with the 100 and 225 and it works great... varying the distance of the nozzles and positions vary which effect or how they will affect the mixture into the air... at least from what I have read and been told.


Also I saw in another thread that you posted to that you are running the 100 pre tb and the 225 post. According to USRT......Position the higher-flow nozzle far away from the combustion chamber for maximum intake cooling. (The longer the intake pipe the more significant the gains.) Place a smaller nozzle behind the TB in our custom-machined plate for superior detonation control.

Just thought you might want to know. I know you said you are at higher altitude and I'm not sure if that means you should reverse the nozzles or not.


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

Twopnt016v said:


> Also I saw in another thread that you posted to that you are running the 100 pre tb and the 225 post. According to USRT......Position the higher-flow nozzle far away from the combustion chamber for maximum intake cooling. (The longer the intake pipe the more significant the gains.) Place a smaller nozzle behind the TB in our custom-machined plate for superior detonation control.
> 
> Just thought you might want to know. I know you said you are at higher altitude and I'm not sure if that means you should reverse the nozzles or not.


Typically the more you put pre-TB the more "cooling" of the air charge you'll get. The more you put post-TB the more "detonation prevention" you get. If you're spraying more pre-TB than a higher water to meth mixture may be better. If you're spraying more post-TB than a higher meth to water mixture may be better. At least I'm pretty sure that's correct.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

04VDubGLI said:


> Typically the more you put pre-TB the more "cooling" of the air charge you'll get. The more you put post-TB the more "detonation prevention" you get. If you're spraying more pre-TB than a higher water to meth mixture may be better. If you're spraying more post-TB than a higher meth to water mixture may be better. At least I'm pretty sure that's correct.


Yeah that's what the paragraph above was saying minus the mixture ratios.
For anyone who is interested here is some tech info on nozzle placement from USRT...

There's only but so much evaporation that a unit volume of air at a given starting temperature can possible do in a given period of time. Placement of a single very large nozzle will oversaturated the intake air with humidity. Then it will "precipitate". In plain English, that means that it will literally rain inside the intake piping as the fluid falls out of suspension and coats the walls. When this occurs there is no cooling, no octane boost, and the owner may run the risk of damaging engine internals.

A dual nozzle strategy involves two smaller nozzles with a total flow capacity that matches or often exceeds what a single large one can do. The bigger of the two is wisely placed just after the intercooler and the smaller one just after the throttle. More distance traveled from the spray point to the combustion chamber ensures that the mist is carried by the air for a longer time period. More time allows for more complete evaporation. More evaporation guarantees more cooling.

A throttle body-mounted nozzle works exactly the same way but in reverse. Less distance traveled = less evaporation = more droplets ready to turn to steam INSIDE the combustion chambers. This reduction in combustion temperature boosts the air/fuel charge's octane rating in a huge and very beneficial way. Of course, one may run a single medium-sized nozzle midway between the two ends. This delivers a compromised mix of both cooling and octane vs. maximum amounts of both. Special care must be taken to ensure that liquid droplets do not reach a drive by wire throttle body. (This is a non-issue for drive by cable throttles.)


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> Hey guys!! Help me out the water meth kit. I'm trying to gather my facts and buy this kit. I was going to go with the snow stage 2 boost cooler kit. I was looking into running a dual nozzle kit but when I called snow they said don't run a dual kit. They recommend running one 365 nozzle for my application. I explained that most people were running 2 nozzles, one after the intercooler and one after the throttle body in a plate. He said there is no benefit from running two nozzles like that. He said if the don't have a special solenoid then the plate after the throttle body being subject to vac will end up spraying into the engine the entire time. I also told him I was going to run the washer fluid res and it would be above the nozzle so he said I needed to buy a special solenoid for that so gravity doesn't force fluid into the motor. He said if the car is parked for a few days it can fill the motor up with fluid. Before talking to him I was going to run a dual set up with the throttle body plate and a 100 and 225 nozzle. Any help is greatly appreciated!!:beer:
> 
> Also if I get the stage 2 kit that is set up for one nozzle and then I buy the usrt dual kit as seen here
> http://www.ngpracing.com/store/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=7013 will I need other items like hose and t's to split the single nozzle line into a dual nozzle set up?


Personally, there's only two kits that are worthy of going in my cars:

1) *Aquamist* they are pioneers that set the tone for the rest of the market. Richard L is probably the most knowledgable guy about water injection you will find. The kits are top notch and make some of the entry level ones look like crap but they are based in the UK.

2) *Labonte motorsport* Great kits, using on of the best pumps and based in the US. Dan, is great guy and will go above and beyond to satisfy any customers need. Just like Aquamist, they do not follow the market but pionner stuff. I run a Labonte kit on the TT because I choose to help the US business that is putting out great products, but the Aquamist kit I run in the evo is the best there is.

I don't like the bosst based kits because I don't want my water injection following the boost curve. If you didn't realize the spray will follow boost lag and lazy recovery after letting off the throttle and getting back on it quickly. A maf controlled, IPW controlled, or a kit that you can tune for all of them together is much more effective and reliable. Also make sure to get a kit that has god failsafe(s) and pumps compatible to run at least 50% meth (not all of them are, but I already gave you a good hint on where to go).

Nozzle placement and selection is like tuning the ecu, it's good to have options but you really can screw it up if you dont know what you are doing. I would not advise to run a nozzle bigger than 1 gal/hour past the TB. The TB adapters can be a good way to have in-cylinder cooling but be aware that the first runner always get left behind and starve for juice compared to the rest. Always make sure you run a dedicated solenoid whenever running a post TB nozzle, Vacuum will cause water droplets to be sucked in, especially if the solenoid is more than a 6" downstream.
Pre TB spraying is a litlle less problematic but there is still a few "do and don'ts". Allow at least a foot for proper atomization before the TB and dont spray a 90 degree if the nozzle is in a straight section. You'll get rain effect from the spray bouncing off the wall facing the nozzle. You could either spray at a curve or angle your bungs. 

In my cars I ususally run a directly ported nozzle dedicated to the first runner and another one mounted on a TB spacer supplying the other cylinders. My IAT charge nozzles are placed way downstream, one right after the DV "T" so I don't recirculate the air I'm cooling and another one right after the turbo(the most effective at bringing IAT down and there is plenty of heat to vaporize things before the SMIC).

Most don't care about all that stuff but if you do it right, you will get good reliable results. Choose wisely!


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> There's only but so much evaporation that a unit volume of air at a given starting temperature can possible do in a given period of time. Placement of a single very large nozzle will oversaturated the intake air with humidity. Then it will "precipitate". In plain English, that means that it will literally rain inside the intake piping as the fluid falls out of suspension and coats the walls. When this occurs there is no cooling, no octane boost, and the owner may run the risk of damaging engine internals.


This is all very much influenced by how you set the start and full trigger points tho surely? 
progressive controller deals with how much is atomised and delivered relative to boost and airflow


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Personally, there's only two kits that are worthy of going in my cars:
> 
> 1) *Aquamist* they are pioneers that set the tone for the rest of the market. Richard L is probably the most knowledgable guy about water injection you will find. The kits are top notch and make some of the entry level ones look like crap but they are based in the UK.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input as well! I will look into those. The kit I am looking into is a maf based kit.
How many nozzles are you running total? 4? You drilled a hole in your intake mani and put one nozzle in the number 1 cyl runner? Then you have one in a throttle plate. Then you have one in the charge pipe right out of the turbo and then I got a little confused about the Dv nozzle? The Dv is mounted in the TIP or intake bellows and has a line running from the charge pipe. I doubt you put one in the TIP so the way you described it sounds like there are two in the charge pipe? Can you clear that up for me cause I doubt you have one on each side of the DV pressure line? Thanks again for the help man!:beer:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> Thanks for your input as well! I will look into those. The kit I am looking into is a maf based kit.
> How many nozzles are you running total? 4? You drilled a hole in your intake mani and put one nozzle in the number 1 cyl runner? Then you have one in a throttle plate. Then you have one in the charge pipe right out of the turbo and then I got a little confused about the Dv nozzle? The Dv is mounted in the TIP or intake bellows and has a line running from the charge pipe. I doubt you put one in the TIP so the way you described it sounds like there are two in the charge pipe? Can you clear that up for me cause I doubt you have one on each side of the DV pressure line? Thanks again for the help man!:beer:


I can see where you got confused, remember the TT has driver side facing manifold plus I have a cold side DV relocation. So, nozzle 1 right after turbo in the metal harpipe leading to the 1st SMIC, nozzle 2 after the cold side dv relocation T, nozzle 3 TB spacer, nozzle 4 directly ported low in the manifold mainly to supply the first runner.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Yes I do run the kit with the 225 post tb to get more of the octane boost; however, it may be more beneficial for me to run the 225 down low..but I feel that the 225 up front is best for my needs...

anyways as it's been recommended you should also run solenoids... it will make sure air isnt being sucked from the nozzle and you get better flow without dripping


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

just a quick pull tonight on the highway, cooler night around 80F. my front mount is garbage. i used it in a pinch and its just not the size and style this application is called for. (no w/m)


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Max -- what gear is this?


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

3rd, but i honestly cannot remember :banghead:. i didnt have a whole lot of room and I wasn't going over 100


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

You, sir, have terrific spool. Way to be.


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> You, sir, have terrific spool. Way to be.


Thanks!:beer: 

but i am still way to hot. going to get a larger intercooler and then W/M. 

I have an extremely free flowing setup. :thumbup:


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

I need a better core, and WMI as well. Luckily a good friend has a snow performance kit on the cheap...

What core are you using now Max?


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

hatetolovemydub said:


> What core are you using now Max?


I honestly could not tell you. It is about 2ft x 8in x 4in. Tube and fin style, not too pleased with its efficiency at the moment. I am trying to source one local before I jump on anything expensive. money is limited at the moment.


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

i have come to expect a decrease in performance due to IATs in the summer.

even when running a K03S i saw a difference even when running a front mount intercooler.

When the fall arrives, this talk about high IAT and intercoolers being inefficient will vanish.

watch you'll see 

my car becomes a beast as the weather gets colder


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

Funny you say that, I have been working nights and the early morning ride home is way fun with no one on the road... She runs great when it's damp and cool out!!


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

hatetolovemydub said:


> Funny you say that, I have been working nights and the early morning ride home is way fun with no one on the road... She runs great when it's damp and cool out!!


my ride to work at 7:40am is very enjoyable


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

*waiting for January*


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

hatetolovemydub said:


> *waiting for January*


fit WMI and enjoy January all year round


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

badger5 said:


> fit WMI and enjoy January all year round


Exactly what I was thinking.....
:laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup:


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Twopnt016v said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.....
> :laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


>


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

badger5 said:


> fit WMI and enjoy January all year round


Yeah, it's going to happen...


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Twopnt016v said:


>


 LOL


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Twopnt016v said:


>


 :thumbup::thumbup:


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Anyone recommend a certain MBC? I boost to 24 in 1st second and go up to 28 in 3rd and so on...:banghead:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

VDuBPL said:


> Anyone recommend a certain MBC? I boost to 24 in 1st second and go up to 28 in 3rd and so on...:banghead:


You want the boost valve from boostvalve.com. Make sure you get the over boost kit:thumbup:
This is what myself and many others run.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

are you running a stock N75? None of that crappy "race valve" business, right?


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

yes, im running the stock n75


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

should I buy this 1?

http://bmb.goemerchant.com/cart/car...dd&Merchant=boostvalvecom&ItemNumber=OVB!45BV


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)




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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

should I buy this 1?

http://bmb.goemerchant.com/cart/car...dd&Merchant=boostvalvecom&ItemNumber=OVB!45BV


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

VDuBPL said:


> should I buy this 1?
> 
> http://bmb.goemerchant.com/cart/car...dd&Merchant=boostvalvecom&ItemNumber=OVB!45BV


That is the one...yes.


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

purchased, thanks!


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

LOL

I ordered the overboost valve this morning.

I went outside to go to work but first messed with the wastegate rod....Can you believe I got it to peak at 26psi in every gear now? WTF!

Im now getting a boost controller that I no longer really need :-D

Im gonna set my boost to 15psi and save gas. :thumbup:

I have like half an inch of the wastegate rod showing after the screws, is this okay?
With the n75 unplugged I boost at 6psi max

I went in 3rd gear at 2k rpm and floored it, I smoothly buit boost and was a little over 15psi at 3k rpms...

Does this all sound fine?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

VDuBPL said:


> LOL
> 
> I have like half an inch of the wastegate rod showing after the screws, is this okay?
> With the n75 unplugged I boost at 6psi max
> ...


Put in the mbc and then you can crank the rod tighter until the turbo boosts 8-9psi with the N75 turned off. Cap the MBC wherever you feel comfortable. 22-24psi is probably as high as you should go.


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## VDuBPL (May 10, 2006)

Cranked the wastegate to it opens at 8 1/2 psi without the n75.

Hooked up the n75 and seen that boost doesn't stop until my foot is off the pedal, I let off with fright!

Cant wait to get the manual boost controller next week and set it to somewhere around 23 psi.

Now when flooring it from 2k rpm I build the boost I want by 3k rpm, power is soo nice 

Im gonna get it dynoed the week after I get the MBC and see what numbers im pushing. 

Rock on and as always, Doug, thank you for the excellent customer support you give with you product!




With this product I did realize too,
You cannot run the stock catted downpipe, I guess the cat and the small piping restrict the flow and clogs stuff up, I was getting a horrible misfire at 20 psi with the stock downpipe, I tried changing the plugs but that dident help at all. Now that I have the 2.5" uncatted downpipe I get 0 misfire, no matter what RPM/Boost!


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

VDuBPL said:


> Cranked the wastegate to it opens at 8 1/2 psi without the n75.
> 
> Hooked up the n75 and seen that boost doesn't stop until my foot is off the pedal, I let off with fright!
> 
> ...




Ok... this also backs up what I have been telling unitronic...I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE OVER BOOSTING ON THE UNI STAGE 2+ 440CC file. You should send David at Unitronic a email and tell him that you overboost with the unitronic stage 2+ file and that your wastegate is set to 8psi. This would not be to complain but to give some feed back to him so he knows how this file is working for people. I love the way my car is running, its a little on the rich side but it is very fun to drive. 
This is what I was last told by unitronic.....

"Ok, I've talk to a few customer using the same software.
I had a customer with exact same file running perfectly until his wastegate actuator blew up. It was replace by frankenturbo but they used different preload setting on it so when he did the install it gave him the exact same problem as you have with overboosting. His preload was at 19psi!!!
After some research, we have found out that all turbo come preloaded differently according to when it was built or who build them."

So essentially they are blaming the hardware and not the software. I on the other hand think it is a software related issue as my car will still overboost to 30psi with the wategate set to 6psi. I am over trying to resolve the issue, I just run the MBC and enjoy my car. I am going to get around to trying to resolve my richness issue with unisettings or maybe turn the fuel pressure down a tad since I am running an adjustable FPR.

I think it should just be told to people that they are going to need a MBC when running a FT. This will just take a lot of the headache away and make the install smoother. That way everyone has all the parts they will need from the start.:thumbup::beer:


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## checkdalevel (Apr 29, 2005)

ok..... 

i do consider my FT dyno run to be the basis for a lot of your purchases.
I stated multiple times that i run a boostvalve in overboost mode to control spikes.

people have been overboosting with k04s since the days of the APR ko4 software.

its the nature of the beast. the K04 tunes for what ever reason are hit or miss when controlling n75s an k04s. 

so every one who gets a k04 tune... do your self a favor and get a boostvalve overboost kit.

dial it in and no more issues....:thumbup:


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## VDub Dan-O (Mar 24, 2010)

checkdalevel said:


> ok.....
> 
> i do consider my FT dyno run to be the basis for a lot of your purchases.
> I stated multiple times that i run a boostvalve in overboost mode to control spikes.
> ...


Well said!
Customer testimonial:
Going on a year now with my FT, 22 PSI all day long with a MBC and my Uni 2+, and I'm talking about the $5 ebay unit, it hasn't missed a beat in a year. I have one of the earlier stiff WG actuators and the lowest I can go is 15 PSI. Even after adjusting the actuator rod a gazillion times.

Doug should almost toss one of the $5 MBCs in the kit, like Todd said it sure would save a ton of headaches.


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## SB_GLI (Oct 17, 2005)

Instead of waiting by the mail box after ordering a MBC for $35 + shipping, go to the hardware store and make one yourself for < $20. After trying out a bleeder type MBC from ebay, I went the route of making my own ball & spring MBC from hardware store parts for around $15 which works just as good as the boostvalve one, and gives you a sense of accomplishment at the same time.

parts include 2 ball bearings, 1 spring, 1 brass T fitting with female ends, 3 barbed ends and a bolt bolt and locking nut to adjust the boost control.

If anyone has any interest in doing this and needs more details, let me know and I can share some pics and maybe a quicky DIY.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

checkdalevel said:


> ok.....
> 
> i do consider my FT dyno run to be the basis for a lot of your purchases.
> I stated multiple times that i run a boostvalve in overboost mode to control spikes.
> ...


I did a gang of reading before my purchase and I did see that a lot of people were running a mbc but then again most people were running other software not specific for FT(generic K04) and it was early in the FT project. I have been watching the FT project for a long time and I held out until a lot of the kinks had been worked out. I'm not trying to bitch at all. I am just one of those people who really plan before I buy, that way I have all the parts need to do the install in one day so the down time is minimal. Before I ordered any parts for my set up I emailed back and forth with Doug and Uni and was told by both of them that I was not going to need a MBC and that was the joy of the stage 2+ 440cc file. So I didn't buy one with the rest of the items.
That being said I am just putting this out there so new buyers realize they should get one from the very beginning.. I also think Doug should just raise the rate of the kit 5$-50$ and toss a mbc in with the kit. I also suggested that Doug loose the DV since most people doing turbo upgrades have one already and toss a complete install kit in as well. Seems like he thought that was a good idea as well.
Like I said not trying to bitch at all, just trying to document this here so other people get the heads up.:beer:


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## vee_dubb_gti (Nov 17, 2004)

back from the dead!!!

cant wait to get my hands on a F4t. Any new updates from anybody?


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

Mine has been running great for some time now! Love it! And Doug is amazing to talk with! Very helpful!!

Just switched finally to a FMIC and rerouted the lines to run the overboost style routing solution....run much better! 0 surging and holds a nice strong consistent pull all the way through!

coupled with the Dual Nozzle WMI and the FMIC....she's a champ :thumbup::thumbup:


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Sinner44 said:


> overboost style routing solution.


what is this?


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## flamtastix (Mar 8, 2011)

My guess would be that he is referring to the MBC being run in parallel with the N75


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

yeah that's what I was referring to lol It just runs inline with the n75


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

huh?
thats weird, my MBC wont work like that.
instead of the 2 smaller hoses going to the N75, i have them directly through to the MBC. the N75 is still in the TIP and plugged into the harness, but the other 2 nipples just have rubber caps on them and hose clamps.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

that's the setup I was originally using too, but it just wasnt working well at all... so I ran it inline with the n75....much better...which MBC are you using??


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## 2OVT (Sep 11, 2009)

Just checking out the bandwagon for the FT. I'm a Corrado g60 owner doing a AWP swap into my C. To get things started I'll be sticking with the K03s and a Giac-X+ tune for the time being. I'm debating whether or not to go FT or BT...I'm kind of leaning toward FT, but if I do...are the FT tunes available yet?


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

yes, Unitronic has a file in their stage 2+ program, others are using custom or Eurodyne.


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## BoostedGLS0218 (Dec 10, 2011)

Uhhmmm. So is there any word on what is happening with these tunes? Have these guys just given up? I've been following this post and I noticed there hasn't been any talk on it in a while. 

I'm still totally in for something like this.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Sinner44 said:


> which MBC are you using??


TurboXS


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> yes, Unitronic has a file in their stage 2+ program, others are using custom or Eurodyne.


X2.



2OVT said:


> Just checking out the bandwagon for the FT. I'm a Corrado g60 owner doing a AWP swap into my C. To get things started I'll be sticking with the K03s and a Giac-X+ tune for the time being. I'm debating whether or not to go FT or BT...I'm kind of leaning toward FT, but if I do...are the FT tunes available yet?


Giac does not have a tune for the FT. shops will tell you their 2+ is a FT tune, they are full of shi+. a buddy of mine got the Giac "2+ FT tune" and he only boosts like 15PSI. AFRs, and EGTs are out of wack.
keep in mind he has an oil cooler, and WMI.
save your self some head ache and money, get a tune for the Ko3s that has the FT tune. so that way it wont cost you another arm and a leg when you get the FT. and if you dont get the FT, EVERY company that has a FT tune, with also have a BT tune.
so your safe for both routes.



BoostedGLS0218 said:


> Uhhmmm. So is there any word on what is happening with these tunes? Have these guys just given up? I've been following this post and I noticed there hasn't been any talk on it in a while.
> 
> I'm still totally in for something like this.


as stated by AmidyFreak, the Unitronic 2+ FT tunes are getting very good reviews, along with Eurodyne. and you cant really go wrong with any of the custom tunes. Malone, Maestro, ect, ect.


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## BoostedGLS0218 (Dec 10, 2011)

So I guess these guys just gave up on the custom FT tunes and just decided to let these bigger name companies do the work. Kinda sticks. The stuff on the first page seemed real promising. 
Oh well I'm getting a stg2 uni tune anyhow. So when the time comes the 2+ will be there then. CBtuning is real close by to me anyhow.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> TurboXS



hmm should work fine...I use the forge unos mbc and it works well....

Also, about tunes. I run the GIAC K04-023 (i think i can't remember exactly) file and it works out pretty well, but I dont have any other tunes to compare it to. I took some logs awhile back ago, but the altitude i'm at and with a capped n75 readings weren't all that accurate... If I ever get a chance to get down to sea level again and log it I'll let you guys know what I come up with, but not too bad of a tune as long as you have all the recommended hardware from GIAC...


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Sinner44 said:


> hmm should work fine...I use the forge unos mbc and it works well


i was told that before. but when i run it with the N75, it wont control the boost. at 1st i thought i had it backwards, so i flipped it around, and same thing. it just wont control the FT boost. unless i run it separate from the n75.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

seems a bit strange i wonder why that is


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Does this help?


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

As long as you hooked up in the config. that Doug posted, I dont see why it wouldn't work for you, unless you have a bad n75?


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Doug, i did that the 1st time. and the MBC wasnt doing its job.
your F4H is just too much!:laugh::laugh:

Sinner, i never thought about having a bad N75. but i did use 3 different N75s. no difference.

any who, im not worried about it. it works the way i have it. i currently have it capped at 11-12 psi.
until i get my tune.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

pic of the MBC im using for reference.


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## forumaccount (Jul 24, 2012)

Any news from the front lines?


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## dav1129 (Dec 16, 2011)

*B5 Frankenturbo with DNA Tuning 'Stage 3' tuning [MBC not helping!!!]*

I just found this thread but haven't yet read it beginning to end but I desperately need a tune for the F4L in DBC 99 Passat down under in Australia. 

Is that ever going to be possible. Where is this project at?

I have been promised a tune but if you have the time here's a link to a post PW where I describe where I am up to....

*B5 Frankenturbo with DNA Tuning 'Stage 3' tuning [MBC not helping!!!]*


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