# 16v ITB project for the wife's Cabriolet



## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

Im going to cross post some of the ITB related content from my Cabriolet forum post as some of you may never go there. Ill keep this related to the ITB swap for the 16V. The rest of my build thread can be found here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3623886
Basically the project entails GSXR ITBs, MS with 36-1 wheel and VR sensor, custom radiator, custom ABA alternator mount, distro hole plug and coil mount, etc etc.

Since Im going to use ITBs and wanted to swap to a serp belt setup, and non a/c ABA brackets are nearly impossible to come by, I came up with my own setup. 
I got an ABA alternator from my buddies yard for $20. Eventually it will need to be pulled apart and blasted etc. 
I machined a block to mount the top of the alternator over the waterpump housing, utilizing the top two bolts. Then came up with an adjustable link, attached to the ps pump bracket, using some spacers that I turned on the lathe at the alternator end. 
The belt is a 33" Dayco (01 Infinity Q45 waterpump belt). The crank pulley is the ebay underdrive pulley that I machined the V belt drive off the front and 1/2" off the back. It lines up nicely with the VR6 waterpump pulley that I pulled off my old GTI motor. 
I dont have any competed shots of it out of the car yet (since I dropped the motor in quick on sunday to measure for the radiator and oil coolers). 
All of the pictures can be found here: http://clubhousecustoms.com/co...m.php
A few highlights:
My first mockup out of wood.... easier to cut than aluminum.








First pass with the aluminum (I forgot to add extra to the one dim, hence the washers). 








The adjustable link and spacers.








All put together using a junk 5rib belt from our Audi, cut and taped together 








Installed on the motor with the real belt and the extra parts of the ps bracket machined off, cleaned up, blasted etc. Also the Rev2 top bracket is in there now, notice no more washers.
















I will probably pull the motor back out tonight, then I can get some better shots of the entire setup. 
Next, once the custom 36-1 trigger wheel Im having waterjet cut arrives I will be mounting that to the back of the crank pulley and working on the mount for the VR sensor. 
Also I got the GSXR TBs in a couple weeks ago and have begun to mod them. Pics soon of that project. 
All for now. 
Dan


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: 16v ITB project for the wife's Cabriolet (juicedz4)*

I love the custom bracket, might have to steal your idea and make myself one at work.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

*Re: 16v ITB project for the wife's Cabriolet (juicedz4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juicedz4* »_Since Im going to use ITBs and wanted to swap to a serp belt setup, and non a/c ABA brackets are nearly impossible to come by

Here is one for sale,
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3799893


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: 16v ITB project for the wife's Cabriolet (frechem)*

Yap, there is one. Unfortunately its like an order of magnitude more expensive than what I have in this entire project. 
Dan


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: 16v ITB project for the wife's Cabriolet (juicedz4)*

More progress tonight, well finally got some pics, on the vacuum rail that will feed the brake booster. I notched the little pieces of tubing and counterbored the -8AN fitting for the tubing on the mill at work. The legs press in with o-ring seals to the stock bike injector port holes. I still need to come up with a couple of mounting tabs, and then TIG this all together, but you get the idea.
Also I got the 5mm threaded rod cut up, and the aluminum spacers test fit between each of the TBs to get the right spacing for the intake mani.
























Dan


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## e-townvdub (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: 16v ITB project for the wife's Cabriolet (juicedz4)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif great work


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

Picked up the waterjet cut 36-1 trigger wheel today, turned out pretty sweet. Should be test fitting it on the back of the crank pulley tonight. 








Dan


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

Little more progress last night. I pulled the motor back out quick and test fit the trigger wheel. I had to just file a tiny bit on the inside hole to get it to slip over (Which was the plan since its easier to make the hole bigger than smaller). I actually did first put the trigger wheel in the toaster and it slipped right over the hub, which had been in the cold garage all week, but I needed it to come off again so I went with the file. 
Couple pics of how it will mount to the crank pulley. 
















Next I need to mount the VR sensor. I have a piece of square aluminum tubing on order to make the bracket. That will probably happen tuesday ish. 
Dan


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## Fankii-T (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: (juicedz4)*

Very nice thread!! keep up


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (Fankii-T)*

Aluminum came today for the VR sensor mount. Was pretty simple really. I may clean up some of the edges a bit more, and I need to drill the second sensor mounting hole yet, but otherwise its basically done. 
































I also got the waste spark coil that I plan on using today. Should be a nice fit where the stock distributor once lived. 








Dan


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## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (juicedz4)*

your VR sensor is too far away. it needs to be ~2mm


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (rockin16v)*

Actually, it is near exactly 2mm in that picture. But yes, I do need to double check that before I bolt it down for the final time. 
Dan


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (juicedz4)*

Cleaned up the edges of the bracket today at work and bead blasted it quick. Its done now. I double checked the VR sensor to wheel clearance and its 1.75mm as shown in the picture below. 
















I just need to now time the trigger wheel to the crank pulley and bolt it down. 
Dan


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## syracusegli (Jan 22, 2005)

*FV-QR*

how the hell did you get those allens in there and tight?


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (syracusegli)*

with a long ball end socket bit through the holes in the outside of the bracket.








Dan


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

Cut a plate to replace the stock oil filter housing today. I just need to clean up the edges, drill holes for the AN fittings and weld the fittings on. Should make for a much cleaner setup. Also the oil filter mount came the other day (and of course its polished so Im going to have to bead blast, stupid polished crap).

















I also finally took a picture of the exhaust flange that I got about a month ago. $36 shipped from a guy in Canada I found on Honda-tech. Ill be making my own header since I refuse to spend $400 or whatever on a new one. I still need to get the rest of the parts for this. Probably sometime this month.
















Dan


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## syracusegli (Jan 22, 2005)

*FV-QR*

ooo i need that flange! point me in the right direction!!


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (syracusegli)*

Of course I deleted all the emails from him etc, and I cant find the exact link on HT right now. However, if you contact "weiRtech" on HT you should be all set. It took me almost a month to get the flange, somehting with the canda post slow boat shipment. 
Anyway, smoking deal if you can wait. 
Dan


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

Few new goodies came today: oil cooler, some -8an weld bungs for the motor block off plate I made and for the oil filter mount, and the connector pigtails for the VR sensor and coil pack. 
























May work on the distributor block off plate / coil mount tomorrow. 
Dan


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

Velocity stack finally showed up from Velocity of Sound in AU today. They are a damn perfect fit. 
























Should have some progress on the fuel rail and the dist block off / coil mount tomorrow. 
Dan


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juicedz4* »_Cut a plate to replace the stock oil filter housing today

The stock oil filter housing has a pressure valve in it.You know this right?


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## OrangeDUB (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
The stock oil filter housing has a pressure valve in it.You know this right?

How can you tell if the oil filter housing has a bad pressure valve? on cold starts this weekend my 82 cabby blew all the oil out of the crank case through the oil filter o-ring. 3 different oil filters and 10 quarts of oil in my driveway later i'm still stumped. seems as if this part might have gone bad on mine. can you get a replacement and how can you get it out to test it?
EDIT: sorry about getting slightly off topic!!


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Wizard-of-OD)*

I guess I was assuming that was an oil filter bypass valve, not a pressure control valve. Unless this is different than every other car, where the pump regulates oil pressure. Guess I will need to double check this before I get to crazy.
Dan


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## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

So what are you doing with the filter/housing?


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

Plan was to mount hte filter remotely, the exactly location TBD.
It depends on how the oil cooler / radiator ect turns out. 
Dan


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## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

ah, so weld fittings onto the plate you made?


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

Exactly. I thought I mentioned that. If not, that is the plan. I guess Im waiting to TIG everything at once.


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

This week I finally managed to machine the holes in the fuel rail blank from RMR and got it cut to length. I just used a 17/32" endmill for the counterbores which are 0.40" deep, and then a 0.25" thruhole. I cleaned out the burrs inside the rail with a 12" long 1/2" bit we had in the shop. Now I need to TIG on the FPR cup and the -6AN bungs and create some mounting tabs. 
















Stock injectors fit nicely.








I also cut the plate for the coil mount and distro hole plug. I had one of the guys in the shop cut the groove for the o-ring to seal around the distro hole, and made my own o-ring at home with some cord stock I had. I still need to drill the mounting holes... hopefully this weekend. 
Groove (1.92" centerline dia) and o-ring.








Close up of where I glued the cordstock together:








Perfect fit








Dan


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## syracusegli (Jan 22, 2005)

*FV-QR*

damn http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## eojthekid (Jul 18, 2006)

*Re: (juicedz4)*

Dan keep the pics coming great job!


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

having access to the right tools is always nice looks like your doing a good job


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## sr20de (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

Boy, you don't believe in buying anything. Making a rubber o-ring???????? That's crazy. Your time would be better spent using the phone to buy all of the correct parts instead of making the junk you're making.


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (sr20de)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sr20de* »_Making a rubber o-ring???????? That's crazy. Your time would be better spent using the phone to buy all of the correct parts instead of making the junk you're making.









bs
keep up the good work, having access to use a machine shop and scrap aluminum if you know what you're doing is far better than buying ANY parts. plus if you made them, you know that they fit and work correctly.
now the o-ring i'm skeptical about, but so far i see nothing wrong with all the parts made here http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (L33t A2)*

Exactly, why would I buy anything when I can just make it myself for near free. Im trying to do this as really nice budget build. Sure I could buy a block off plate for 60 bux, but this one was free. Not to mention I dont think anyone has a plate that works with the Ford coil pack Im using.
The glue used to make the o-ring is a special super glue from Loctite ($20 for a 1/3 oz) that is specialy designed to bond rubber to create o-rings. Its pretty common practice. 
Dan


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

sr20de=tool
keep up the good work juiced http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## eurojunkman (Jul 11, 2007)

I second that sr20de is a tool. Work looks great. Keep up the pics highly interested to see final job.


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

Thanks guys. No new progress on this lately. I have been busy finishing up some house projects. Probably get back to this in a couple weeks, else right after the new year.


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (juicedz4)*

Got the bare radiator late last week from Howe. I need to trim about 5" off the top of it and fab up some tanks, mounts etc. Prob start on this early Jan as I have another radiator to do for someone else. Its going to end up being a 10x24" dual pass, dual 1" row.
















And yes, Im making my own radiator.....
Dan


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## syracusegli (Jan 22, 2005)

*FV-QR*

yes! i tired to make my own rad by hacking one up.. didnt go so well.
can you give some insight/ post pics when you do it?
i thought i had it figured out but.. ehhh


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (syracusegli)*

This will be my first attempt too actually. Shouldnt be too hard. Ill def have a pile of pics. Probably will practice on the part Im cutting off first before heading to the real deal. 
Dan


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

I nominate the make your own radiator thread


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## dmitry88 (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Svedka)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (dmitry88)*









Much as I admire the engineering you've put into this build, do you realise your brake booster set-up negates the whole point of having ITB's? 


_Modified by Golden at 4:35 AM 12-27-2008_


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## LO-vw (Sep 24, 2001)

*FV-QR*

itb's still build vacuum and as long as you dont run a huge cam your alright


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (LO-vw)*

^^^^
Eh? I'm not saying the booster wont work, what I'm saying is by linking the TB's in that way you may as well have a common chamber manifold


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## LO-vw (Sep 24, 2001)

*FV-QR*

I know what your worrying about but it works don't worry its not your car so you would have to deal with the headache if it backfires







. I'm building a very similar motor and im not worried about it. 
worst comes to worst he can get a diesel vacuum pump and run that.


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (LO-vw)*
























Hands up anyone in this thread who actually knows why TB's are better than the stock manifold?

I love the way you guys spend all this time, money and effort without knowing why you're doing what you're doing!


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

manual brakes arnt that bad


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Golden* »_























Hands up anyone in this thread who actually knows why TB's are better than the stock manifold?

I love the way you guys spend all this time, money and effort without knowing why you're doing what you're doing!









uhhh, maybe cause they flow way more air then a stock IM/TB could ever????
you are ridiculous. this guys building all his own **** and doing an impressive job and youfu ckin **** heads just pick pick pick pick on his project.
shut the fuc k up. go do somthing productive, or just stop typing your thoughts.


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (vagrant_mugen)*










Yes, that's why TB's are better, because the throttle body on the original design was a restriction http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Funny how 30 years after the GTI engine came out, no tuning company realised this and started selling Corvette throttle bodies to bolt on in place of the 'drinking straw' VW fitted.
I bet VW are also kicking themselves, if only they'd known their throttle body was too small, they could have had the most powerful compact for years!


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## stew72 (Jan 24, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*

now there's at least 2 of us








Golden has a very valid point, athough it is shiney.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*

or vw was going after some fuel efficiency. i know that i put a larger tb on my car and it didnt help alot it did some but without headwork or a bigger cam i think i am dead in the water. but that was on an 8v. i i could just be wrong about it. 
not meanin to bust anyones chops or anything.


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## Funkatollah Insaney (Aug 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

So the fact that each cylinder now has its own dedicated intake tract and won't have to deal with resonance waves from the other cylinders isn't an advantage?
Or that the increased throttle response would be a severe dis-advantage?
If there is a check valve between the ITBs and the vacuum manifold, they wouldn't be entirely linked, save for the section of tubing before the check valve.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Funkatollah Insaney)*

good points there. i will keep my chops shut and take in the info! just a question does the resonanse play a huge role in a manifold? not to side track anything from the thread or anything.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

yeah its kind of a big deal, that and runner length/plenum volume.
A lot of the honda guys actually loose power when switching to itb's compared to a well designed intake manifold. 
vw is at a pretty severe disadvantage in the tuning/aftermarket parts world, no one has even attempted to build a "tuned" intake manifold for a set of cams or worked head.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

yeah good point we seem to be stuck in the build it yourself and try to get it right territory or pay big a** bucks for something. just kinda nice to see how people can be innovative with what they have or what they can make to satisfy their needs.


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Funkatollah Insaney)*


_Quote »_Re: FV-QR (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81) »	« » 8:05 AM 1-1-2009 Reply to this post
If there is a check valve between the ITBs and the vacuum manifold, they wouldn't be entirely linked, save for the section of tubing before the check valve.



That sounds good, but is complete rubbish.

Explain how a one-way valve will stop one cylinder drawing air and disrupting flow from another? 










_Modified by Golden at 4:31 AM 1-3-2009_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

golden what you saying may be true, but when under any kind of load those holes will have limited if no effect on anything. Have you ever seen a set of off the shelf throttle bodies, or car with itb's stock.

They ALL draw vac the same was he is doing. The ideal setup would be to use an electric vac pump but this setup wil be fine for 99.9999 percent of people interested in itb's


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

a quote for fun
"OE Nissan individual throttle systems have a small vacuum passage in each bore which connect to a shared log-type chamber. This chamber stores a vacuum signal that’s strong enough to assist the brakes and provide a load signal to the fuel pressure regulator. Idle speed is controlled by a stepper motor bypass. "


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

So my plan for this was never to make a ton of power. Its going to be more show than go. I just wanted to do something "different".
I think im going to get back to this in the next couple weeks. Just need to finish up one more house project. 
Dan


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## Funkatollah Insaney (Aug 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Golden* »_That sounds good, but is complete rubbish.
Explain how a one-way valve will stop one cylinder drawing air and disrupting flow from another?









Okey dokey troll. Put down the eel pie and try some theory.
Imagine, if you can, sucking air through a straw. Got some flow there, right?
Now, put a vacuum cleaner nozzle (with the vacuum on. Be careful not to suck the worts off of your nose) on the other end of the straw and try sucking air through it. A bit harder, yes?
Vacuum doesn't necessarily mean airflow. In fact the absence of it, this is where I believe you're going cross-eyed. There can't be an opening in the vacuum system to allow flow, or there would be no vacuum. See what I did there?
Water, air, and electricity all follow the path of least resistance, which would be down the huge hole in the tract known as the butterfly valve, followed by the valve port which opens up to the cylinder.
The 0.125" (or approx. 3mm) opening is going to do nothing for equalizing cylinder pressure. There's too much resistance. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Funkatollah Insaney)*

Thank you for yet another, ill thought through, pointless post.

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
Vacuum doesn't necessarily mean airflow. In fact the absence of it, this is where I believe you're going cross-eyed. There can't be an opening in the vacuum system to allow flow, or there would be no vacuum. See what I did there?


Wow, that's sooooo true, I'm sure everyone has noticed that when you brake with the throttle slightly open you get no booster assistance







Thinking about it though, working on your theory the booster will never work as the throttle has to be open slightly to idle, OMG the vacuums leaked out









_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
Water, air, and electricity all follow the path of least resistance, which would be down the huge hole in the tract known as the butterfly valve, followed by the valve port which opens up to the cylinder.


Yet again, what a genius point! That's right, there's no pressure difference between a cylinder that has just had a combustion event producing thousands of PSI and a cylinder that is half way through the induction stroke at less than atmospheric pressure. YEP! no pressure difference to promote flow there!

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
The 0.125" (or approx. 3mm) opening is going to do nothing for equalizing cylinder pressure. There's too much resistance. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I don't know what are you looking at but that booster link pipe looks at least 15mm diameter to me


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*

dude get out of here golden your an idiot, did you even read anything I wrote? Do I need to find another 100000 people running conjoined vac lines on ITB cars for you to believe that it works fine???


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## Funkatollah Insaney (Aug 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*

Mr. Golden,
You're welcome for my post. I hope you learned something from it. You're a chav, aren't you? Maybe even the elusive Brummy variety?
The engine will create vacuum whenever it is running. Because the negative pressure of the intake stroke creates this. More vacuum is generated at anything less than WOT, than at WOT, but there is still vacuum. To prove the point, try heel-toe braking. It works and its not fairy magic.
The combustion event happens against closed valves, making a sealed container (the cylinder). This results in only a local pressure difference, inside the sealed container. Hence the way an internal combustion engine produces power. Then the EXHAUST valve opens, using the positive pressure created by the RISING PISTON, not the exploded fuel, to force gases out. There is no connection with the intake tract or vacuum associated with those events. I think you're confusing Helmholtz Theory of an Acoustic Resonance Chamber with the explosion.
The plumbed vacuum line on that set of throttle bodies is indeed much larger than 3mm. I bet it will generate the same amount of vacuum.
You get to piss off now, you sodding wanker.


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## Golden (Jun 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Funkatollah Insaney)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_Mr. Golden,
You're welcome for my post. I hope you learned something from it. You're a chav, aren't you? Maybe even the elusive Brummy variety?

Name calling, such a powerful tool to get your point across. Also you'll see it says London below my name, which is nowhere near Bermming Ham.

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
The engine will create vacuum whenever it is running. Because the negative pressure of the intake stroke creates this. More vacuum is generated at anything less than WOT, than at WOT, but there is still vacuum. To prove the point, try heel-toe braking. It works and its not fairy magic.

I'm fully aware of this fact, it is you that isn't, shall I remind you of your previous post.

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
There can't be an opening in the vacuum system to allow flow, or there would be no vacuum. See what I did there?

Make your mind up, does the inlet need to be a sealed system or not? (p.s. that's a question for you, I know the answer).

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
The combustion event happens against closed valves, making a sealed container (the cylinder). This results in only a local pressure difference, inside the sealed container. Hence the way an internal combustion engine produces power. Then the EXHAUST valve opens, using the positive pressure created by the RISING PISTON, not the exploded fuel, to force gases out. 

LMAO, I love your rudimentary understanding of the 4 stroke engine. You really think the piston 'pushes' the exhaust out PMSL. So what happens during the valve overlap period? In your 'THE PISTON PUMPS THE EXHAUST OUT' theory what's to stop the piston forcing the exhaust gas out the inlet valve?

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
There is no connection with the intake tract or vacuum associated with those events.

So things like cylinder scavenging and cylinder robbing are myths, damn, the respected tuners who have written books on these subjects are going to look real jerks now!


_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
I think you're confusing Helmholtz Theory of an Acoustic Resonance Chamber with the explosion.

It's like listening to stand up, for a start it's not an 'explosion' lmao, and it's even more amusing when combined with Helmholtz Theory. It's like someone saying, "I think you're confusing the Theory of Relativity with baseball".

_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
The plumbed vacuum line on that set of throttle bodies is indeed much larger than 3mm. I bet it will generate the same amount of vacuum.

What the ****! Pipework doesn't generate vacuum, vacuum is a pressure differential.


_Quote, originally posted by *Funkatollah Insaney* »_
You get to piss off now, you sodding wanker. 









Keyboard warrior.


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## Funkatollah Insaney (Aug 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Golden)*

You're the best. We'll stop jacking this guys thread now.
ITBs work great, the engine still generates vacuum. Whether I've explained well enough or not. 
Have a good day.


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## bluebug300 (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Funkatollah Insaney)*

Hey guys, enough about the back n forth stuff!!
I've got "individual throttles" aka carbs and from the time i put them on there was a difference in performance....throttle response, revs higher and easier...ect..
and i also got a vacuum manifold that i made and i works perfect. Whats important is that the check valve remains between the vacuum manifold and the booster so that the pedal doesn't stiffen up while driving.

pics:













































http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

*FV-QR*

as much as i wanted to tell golden he is a ****ing dickwad, i think i finally understand him. by linking the throttle bodies, since the cylinders are all different in their intake strokes, when one cylinder is on the intake stroke, the ones next to it arent, so those valves are closed. therefore the strongest vacuum will be in the tract of the cylinder on the intake stroke. therefore, that cylinder will suck some air from the surrounding cylinders, which will disrupt the airflow to those cylinders. plus, having an opening between cylinders should disrupt the wave characteristics. with that said, the gsxr throttle bodies are connected with small vacuum lines from the factory. I believe the small size of the lines prevents this from having much effect on the joined cylinders, but big bore lines would.

that being said, i believe the cold start valve links all 4 cylinders, so if you are attaching the gsxr bodies to the factory cut lower manifold they are already linked there, so you could use the cold start location as your vacuum manifold.


_Modified by yeayeayea at 2:52 PM 1-13-2009_


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## LostBoyChuck (Sep 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (yeayeayea)*

Just like anything else, there's ideal and realistic. If any of us are building full on race cars and have the money to do it that way as Golden obviously does then we can contact him directly so he can enlighten us as he has not in this thread.
For the rest of us, as well as mass production there will be compromises. Yes the cylinders are joined to a small extent, but we need a signal that is best gathered from a vac log as is common practice. I'm sure there are a few ITB kits out there without vac feeds or holes, but I have yet to see one. I guess the question is how much of a gain would we see from total isolation vs the way it is commonly done and will it be worth the hassle of doing the vac pump and all the related work.
Now back to the important part which is probably where this conversation should have ended. The title WIFE'S CABRIOLET... two words that don't translate to DEDICATED RACE CAR in my book. I'm sure if his wife drives like mine it might be up for debate.








Good job on the build http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif just wish I had the resources and skill to do some of those things myself.


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## LO-vw (Sep 24, 2001)

*FV-QR*

if everyone is so worried about the vacuum form the 2 cylinders sucking in air and the other two being closed wouldn't an easy fix be to connect the two cylinders that run together to a vacuum block with check valve, and the other two cylinders to a vacuum block with a check valve. 
So then only when the 2 cylinders that are truly in vacuum it is sucking air past the check valve and the other two cylinders are isolated with their own vacuum bank and closed check valve not being disturbed by the others. 
just a thought and those plastic check valves are cheap. only thing that would worry me with this would be any harmonic pulses from the closing of the valves could possibly override the check valve, or you don't get enough vacuum.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

we don't even need to talk about this subject anymore, the way the Op is doing it is fine and there will be no issues


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (LO-vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LO-vw* »_if everyone is so worried about the vacuum form the 2 cylinders sucking in air and the other two being closed wouldn't an easy fix be to connect the two cylinders that run together to a vacuum block with check valve, and the other two cylinders to a vacuum block with a check valve. 
just a thought and those plastic check valves are cheap. only thing that would worry me with this would be any harmonic pulses from the closing of the valves could possibly override the check valve, or you don't get enough vacuum. 

no two cylinders are ever open at the same time, 4 cylinders, 4 different intake strokes.
You could run 4 check valves, one for each cylinder, that way one cylinder can not back feed into the other. that way, air can only come out of the brake booster, not swap between cylinders.
that being said, and like i said before, the cold start joins the cylinders already, so if you use a cut stock manifold then it is a moot point. Also, when I do my ITB's, they will be joined for the brake booster, instead of relying on one cylinder to pull the vacuum. I dont own a race car, im not going to treat it like one.
Also, the "wifes car" part is very valid. its not a race car golden.


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## mildsteven (Apr 9, 2006)

Lovely work, looks more awesome than 1000 hotdogs.....but does linking the ITB's not go against the whole point of them?


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

*Re: (mildsteven)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mildsteven* »_Lovely work, looks more awesome than 1000 hotdogs.....but does linking the ITB's not go against the whole point of them?

did you read the whole thread? its been covered pretty thoroughly.


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## LO-vw (Sep 24, 2001)

*Re: (mildsteven)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mildsteven* »_Lovely work, looks more awesome than 1000 hotdogs.....but does linking the ITB's not go against the whole point of them?











yeayeayea- glad you understood what I meant. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (LO-vw)*

So Im seriously thinking about scrapping this ITB setup and doing a mild turbo setup instead. I have no idea what brought it on but I think this may be the end of this thread. 
Hmm

Dan


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## 4doorfloorit (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (sr20de)*

""Boy, you don't believe in buying anything. Making a rubber o-ring???????? That's crazy. Your time would be better spent using the phone to buy all of the correct parts instead of making the junk you're making."" dude that is THE funniest **** someone posted on here ever!! thanks for a great laugh, haven't laughed that hard in a long time!! Anyways keep up the good work and good luck on your home made O-rings http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## juicedz4 (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (4doorfloorit)*

Im not sure just how to take that. Thanks?


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## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (juicedz4)*

total props on the project! looks like quality work and i say f*** all the negative nancy's. Not everyone has the time/know how/skills... to fab their own stuff let alone take on a project like yours. Good luck with it, which ever way you take it!


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## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (mudanddust)*

I REALLY wish people were capable of discussing topics like this without attacking one another. 
Honestly, discussion of the theory behind ITB setups and the way vacuum is used for accessories and/or load sensing is something that is blatantly absent from this forum. If we could get some people with engineering smarts together with experienced ITB'd engine builders to discuss (like adults, no name calling or attacks) we'd all be better off.
Anyway, back on topic. Dan, please continue the good work. I'm learning a lot from threads like yours and I hope all the negativity doesn't change your mind about where you're going with the project.
What direction are you planning to go with management? Alpha-n? Speed density? 
Oh, and you must have the coolest wife around to have her hand her car over to you so you can build a sick totally customized motor for it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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