# 12v vrt, innovate motorsport MTX-l noob wideband question help/info needed



## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

car is a 96 mk3 gti .

I got the Innovate MTX-l wideband sensor to put in, and yes ive done searching so please dont tell me to go do it. if you dont have the answer to my question or potentially useable advice or ideas, just move on. 

I have the 12V power hooked up, ground, and dimmer wires all hooked up and gauge works and comes up with the "E2" message which is an error message leading to the next step in calibrating the o2 sensor. so all is fine with wiring

my question is about the signal wire that needs to be ran for the ecu, I have two available wires on the wideband to choose from. and this is from the instruction manual

I have a YELLOW (Analog out 1) and/or BROWN (Analog output 2).

The default analog outputs are as follows: 
Analog output one (yellow) is 0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39 AFR.
Analog output two (brown) is 1.1V = 14 AFR and .1V = 15 AFR.
then right after it says this is a simulated narrowband signal.

my confusion is that from my research I should use the brown wire for my wideband signal to the ecu, but it says that its a simulated narrowband signal right after the brown one? I honestly dont understand how this system works and would love some input.

Then my next question is, once I determine the correct wire for my signal wire from the wideband, Which wire do I run it to on the o2 wire thatll bring it to the ecu? I have looked everywhere for the signal wire on the o2 sensor plug and I havent came up with anything solid

thank you for your time and information



the gauge in question

















for this pile


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## optiks (Mar 15, 2003)

you want to hook up the 0-5V output to your gauge, you are not hooking anything up to the engine computer , because you are running the engine o2 sensor AND this o2 sensor


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

Then how will my computer know whats going on? itll be getting readings from an o2 sensor thats not even in the exhaust, and ill be getting the correct readings from an o2 sensor that doesnt even make a difference except the number output? It replaces the first o2 sensor, i know people still keep the regular o2 sensor connected but not into the exhaust, so how would it run right if its still connected to the original o2 sensor?


i thought the wideband o2 sensor replaces the before the cat o2, and then also you run a signal wire so that the ecu is getting the readings from the wideband o2 and not the original o2?

confused at this point.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

OP, are you trying to run the WB with the narrow band output going to the ecu instead of running the factory O2? This can only be done if you can calibrate the AFR vs voltage curve. Here is some reading and the pin numbers you need to splice into. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4699102-Wideband-simulating-a-narrowband-O2

My WB had a set curve so I could not do it, but yours is programable I think. You would leave the factory O2 hooked up and just cut the signal wire at the ECM connector. You leave the sensor hooked up so you don't get a O2 heater code. The narrow band output will just replace the signal to the ECU. You would then hook your gauge up to the WB output for reading AFR in boost.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

ericmasters said:


> Then how will my computer know whats going on? itll be getting readings from an o2 sensor thats not even in the exhaust, and ill be getting the correct readings from an o2 sensor that doesnt even make a difference except the number output? It replaces the first o2 sensor, i know people still keep the regular o2 sensor connected but not into the exhaust, so how would it run right if its still connected to the original o2 sensor?
> 
> 
> i thought the wideband o2 sensor replaces the before the cat o2, and then also you run a signal wire so that the ecu is getting the readings from the wideband o2 and not the original o2?
> ...


Misconception... your O2 wideband output is *not *relevant to the stock ECU at all in all the widebands I have used. It is purely for your monitoring purposes, ie let off the gas pedal when you are lean. You need to retain your original pre-cat O2 sensor as this is what is driving your ECU.

Now that was all said assuming that you are running a chip tune on a stock ECU. If you have some alternative harnessing in place because of a standalone system or some other custom installation forget all I just said.

Edit:
I am not experienced at all with this particular Innovate wideband so if this does allow you to eliminate the existing pre-cat O2 that is a learning experience for me. Actually my chick just picked this same wideband up for her ride so if you learn any more I will be interested to know too. :thumbup:


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

yeah thats what I was under the impression I had to do, again I dont have much experience with wideband/narrowband etc.

From my research, the wideband provided the signal for the ECU with the updated readings from the wideband sensor, I dont want to use the gauge just for a readout. I want it to be used as like you said where its the narrow band output going to the ecu instead of the factory o2

The MTX-l has an o2 sensor that can be calibrated, if that is what you are reffering to and I have the signal wire tapped into my ECM connector on the black wire which is signal to the ECU as far as i can tell.



i appreciate that info, exactly what i needed to see, thank you for your time.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Misconception... your O2 wideband output is *not *relevant to the stock ECU at all. It is purely for your monitoring purposes, ie let off the gas pedal when you are lean. You need to retain your original pre-cat O2 sensor as this is what is driving your ECU.


okay so then that goes against what i just thought i understood haha

so I can only use the MTX-l wideband gauge as a readout *ONLY*?

Ive been reading and a lot of people keep their original o2 sensor hooked up to keep away from any sensor codes popping up when its gone, have the sensor mounted somewhere else outside of the exhaust, and replace the before cat o2 sensor with the wideband and tap into the signal to the ECU so it reads off the wideband?

and yes its a stock ecu with the C2 #42 software


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Honestly if that is true this new territory for me also but I am interested to know more.

I know the one I will be wiring on the said car will be monitoring only as I suspect the electrical characteristics might be different to the original Bosch supplied unit. I understand what you are saying about a calibration curve but I don't know if the response time due to resistance etc is identical to what the ECU is expecting from the original O2 sensor. Really I can only see this being of value if you were tuning the car in real-time and needed the wideband output to be exported so the tuner could modify AFRs etc, but on your C2 chip I don't see how this benefits you (not saying don't do it, just saying I don't understand the utility).


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Honestly if that is true this new territory for me also but I am interested to know more.
> 
> I know the one I will be wiring on the said car will be monitoring only as I suspect the electrical characteristics might be different to the original Bosch supplied unit. I understand what you are saying about a calibration curve but I don't know if the response time due to resistance etc is identical to what the ECU is expecting from the original O2 sensor.


okay that makes absolute sense when you put it that way



V-dubbulyuh said:


> Really I can only see this being of value if you were tuning the car in real-time and needed the wideband output to be exported so the tuner could modify AFRs etc, but on your C2 chip I don't see how this benefits you (not saying don't do it, just saying I don't understand the utility).


and this may be me not knowing what im talking about, but the MTX-l wideband does come with software that allows me to adjust things. It may not be applicable to me since I have the C2 chip, again I am learning about this aspect and have no idea. Plus the software only works on PC and i have a MAC haha


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

What is crazy about the whole thing... I told her to get it due to the economical price. It was the cheapest wideband that she found. It had nothing to do with being programmable. If this is truly that advanced I might wind up getting one for myself at some point. One of the standalone guys will probably soon chime in as to the use of this wideband when doing dyno/street tuning.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> What is crazy about the whole thing... I told her to get it due to the economical price. It was the cheapest wideband that she found. It had nothing to do with being programmable. If this is truly that advanced I might wind up getting one for myself at some point. One of the standalone guys will probably soon chime in as to the use of this wideband when doing dyno/street tuning.


hopefully! I'd love to get this thing finalized in my car, all wired up and glowing in my face but not reading anything because i want to know what i need to do before i weld up the bung and put the sensor in.

it says in the manual," optionally, the yellow or brown analog output wires can be connected to the analog inputs of other devices such as data loggers or ECU's."

so if the only concern is matching the time of the signal and resistance, etc between the new sensor and the stock o2 the ECU is used to, would the two options for outputs fall into what we needed?

since analog 1: 0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39 AFR
analog 2: 1.1V = 14 AFR and .1V = 15 AFR

i may just be talking out of my a$$, im just trying to make sense of it until someone tells me whats up haha


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> OP, are you trying to run the WB with the narrow band output going to the ecu instead of running the factory O2? This can only be done if you can calibrate the AFR vs voltage curve.


like what hes saying


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

if this helps with any information, the o2 sensor used with the MTX-l is the Bosch LSU4.2


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

OP, 
You can have a WB gauge in your car with AFR readings. You can delete your OEM pre cat O2 with this WB setup. You will use the narrowband output on the WB to run a 0-5v signal to the ecu in place of the factory narrowband O2 signal. You must retain your OEM O2 to prevent the heater circut fault,m but it will no longer do anything. You will then use the WB input for hooking up the gauge too. Pretty cool if you ask me.:thumbup: DO IT! I am saving for this WB for this very reason.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ericmasters said:


> The MTX-l has an o2 sensor that can be calibrated, if that is what you are reffering to and I have the signal wire tapped into my ECM connector on the black wire which is signal to the ECU as far as i can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> i appreciate that info, exactly what i needed to see, thank you for your time.


Might want to double check that wiring vs whats in my thread.:thumbup: I believe the wire is yellow.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Might want to double check that wiring vs whats in my thread.:thumbup: I believe the wire is yellow.


are you referring to the wire from the wideband, or the signal wire in the stock o2 wiring?
and if you are reffering to the stock o2 wiring, i did mine before the connector on the o2 side not on the ecu side of the connection. just trying to identify so we are both on the same page


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> OP,
> You can have a WB gauge in your car with AFR readings. You can delete your OEM pre cat O2 with this WB setup. You will use the narrowband output on the WB to run a 0-5v signal to the ecu in place of the factory narrowband O2 signal. You must retain your OEM O2 to prevent the heater circut fault,m but it will no longer do anything. You will then use the WB input for hooking up the gauge too. Pretty cool if you ask me.:thumbup: DO IT! I am saving for this WB for this very reason.


this is exactly what i needed to know you nailed it and thank you.

i ran the yellow wire from the wideband, and connected it to the signal from the o2 sensor, which on my four-prong o2 connector there are 3 that are grouped in a line and then a single one which to my knowledge is the signal but is black.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> OP,
> You can have a WB gauge in your car with AFR readings. You can delete your OEM pre cat O2 with this WB setup. You will use the narrowband output on the WB to run a 0-5v signal to the ecu in place of the factory narrowband O2 signal. You must retain your OEM O2 to prevent the heater circut fault,m but it will no longer do anything.


This is good info...

Still don't see why you would "delete" the original O2 only to retain it to avoid a fault code, on a stock ECU/chip setup.


Thnx Ginster. :thumbup:


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> This is good info...
> 
> Still don't see why you would "delete" the original O2 only to retain it to avoid a fault code, on a stock ECU/chip setup.
> 
> ...


wouldnt it almost be a plus though considering you can take the wideband o2 sensor out and re-calibrate it if needed? because then you know that the readings your getting on the wideband gauge are accurate with the ones being read by your ECU. Instead of relying on your stock o2 sensor that could not be accurate while still getting good readings from your wideband sensor?

but then again if your stock o2 goes bad and your wideband is just for measures you'd see it whether its running to the ecu or not

hm


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

You want to use the gray wire on your factory O2 for the signal, the black is ground and the two white wires are for the O2 heater. Makes sense to use the wire down at the factory O2.:thumbup: 

You want to run your power and ground for the WB as close to the ECU as possible to keep the voltage equal for the best response. 

The idea behind doing this is WB sensor respond much faster than the OEM O2 narrowband one. In theory, doing this would decrease the time it takes for the ecu to see the actual fueling needs of the engine. Us chip tune guys all know how our AFR's walk at idle and cruise, this should decrease that walk and help the ecu keep fueling closer to stoich under those conditions. need_a_vr6 has some knowledge of this, maybe he will chime in as he helped me when I thought of this awhile back. My PLX has a fixed voltage vs AFR scale so it did not work on my car. Need a new WB anyway, mine is really old.

You can either run a resistor on the heater wires or keep the original O2 in place and hooked up, but with no signal wire. This will prevent a CEL for O2 heater regulation, but you will be using a converted output to feed to the ecu. 

Hope that makes sense.:thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ericmasters said:


> wouldnt it almost be a plus though considering you can take the wideband o2 sensor out and re-calibrate it if needed? because then you know that the readings your getting on the wideband gauge are accurate with the ones being read by your ECU. Instead of relying on your stock o2 sensor that could not be accurate while still getting good readings from your wideband sensor?
> 
> but then again if your stock o2 goes bad and your wideband is just for measures you'd see it whether its running to the ecu or not
> 
> hm


Big plus with this setup IMO, if your sensor fails it can be replaced for ~80.00 bucks and is used by other OEM's so you should be able to find it anywhere. The new LSU sensors are very accurate with a bind blowingly fast switch rate.:laugh:

You will still see it on your gauge, not running stoich and you will actually get a CEL if your WB is failing setup this way. Your ecu is using the same output signal, just scaled to a narrowband voltage.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

that just solved all of my questions! youre the man and i greatly appreciate your time and info, should have it all finished up by tomorrow!


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> You want to use the gray wire on your factory O2 for the signal, the black is ground and the two white wires are for the O2 heater. Makes sense to use the wire down at the factory O2.:thumbup:
> 
> You want to run your power and ground for the WB as close to the ECU as possible to keep the voltage equal for the best response.
> 
> ...


ill switch the black over to grey, good thing i made sure to ask before i finished everything. do you think the difference of about a foot will make alterations to the voltage enough to matter? i have it grounded behind the knee bar, and am pulling power close to the fuse box


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

The only thing left is to figure out the lambda to voltage ratio of the stock ecu.:laugh:

*EDIT*
I forgot need_a_vr6 posted this in my thread.


need_a_VR6 said:


> Yes .5v for stoich. You will want the 'curve' very steep though. Innovate sets this as 1.1v = .958 lambda, .103v = 1.022 lambda.


Here is a link I saved for converting lambada to AFR.
http://www.tatech.fi/cms/uploads/Lambda_vs_AFR.pdf


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ericmasters said:


> ill switch the black over to grey, good thing i made sure to ask before i finished everything. do you think the difference of about a foot will make alterations to the voltage enough to matter? i have it grounded behind the knee bar, and am pulling power close to the fuse box


That's what PLX says to do, but I don't see any reason why it should matter. Maybe electric noise from the alt or something.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> The only thing left is to figure out the lambda to voltage ratio of the stock ecu.:laugh:
> 
> *EDIT*
> I forgot need_a_vr6 posted this in my thread.
> ...


so, about that. please explain haha is that just for the tuning aspect of it?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ericmasters said:


> so, about that. please explain haha is that just for the tuning aspect of it?


Let me read a little about that WB and see if I can answer your question.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

You will need to buy one of these from them so you can interface with your computer.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16333&cat=250&page=2
You will then be able to set the curve up on the program that came with your kit. Should be pretty strait forward, what a cool WB kit. Very useful for data logging and keeping your investment calibrated.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> You will need to buy one of these from them so you can interface with your computer.
> http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16333&cat=250&page=2
> You will then be able to set the curve up on the program that came with your kit. Should be pretty strait forward, what a cool WB kit. Very useful for data logging and keeping your investment calibrated.


only problem is I have a MAC, the disc included with the MTX-L wont even load and that also says for PC, hmm


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ericmasters said:


> only problem is I have a MAC, the disc included with the MTX-L wont even load and that also says for PC, hmm


The brown wire might work, thats the one for NB output. yellow is for datalogging or a standalone because its a WB output. It think the factory setting will work.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

The MTX-L does output it's simulated narrow band signal on the brown wire when using the default settings. And default wideband analog out is yellow. The nice thing about it is the fact that it also has a gauge that doesn't use either of the outputs. A friend has one installed in one of his cars and uses it both to simulate narrow band for the stock ecu ( plus he can see the actual AFR's on the gauge!) and for when he has his MS DIYPnP hooked up using the wideband output.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

so then I should go back to the brown wire, will switch that now, thats what i had it hooked up to initially

haha this gauge seems awesome and I can't wait to have it in, everything is hooked up, and i had to go get a bigger wrench last night for the o2 sensor and im about to go start on it right now, all i need to do is connect it, calibrate it, and thread it in!

thanks again guys for all this info, it seems there had been a lot of confusion for many people about how to do this, so for your time and effort and for a thread that is still hate-free so far :beer:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

ericmasters said:


> thanks again guys for all this info, it seems there had been a lot of confusion for many people about how to do this, so for your time and effort and for a thread that is still hate-free so far :beer:


x2 :thumbup:


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

all hooked up and running! i took videos and took my first test drive, will have the videos up shortly.

this gauge is seriously nice, it doesnt jump around at all, the digital readout is super clear and fast reading

I didn't even drive one mile and my check engine light went off, and it seriously is driving better than ever, now just to get my rich fouled plugs out and put my new set of bkr7eku's in and ill be primetime! also new maf


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Great news, glad you decided to be the ginnie pig, lol. You have Vagcom? if you could look at your O2 regulation at idle and partial load, that would be a good place to look for improvement in the signal to the ECU. Badarse!

Now do the Ford coil mod and try some BKR8EIX's @ .030!


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Prof315 said:


> The MTX-L does output it's simulated narrow band signal on the brown wire when using the default settings. And default wideband analog out is yellow. The nice thing about it is the fact that it also has a gauge that doesn't use either of the outputs. A friend has one installed in one of his cars and uses it both to simulate narrow band for the stock ecu ( plus he can see the actual AFR's on the gauge!) and for when he has his MS DIYPnP hooked up using the wideband output.


PnP MS? removable for emissions? Sounds cool.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> PnP MS? removable for emissions? Sounds cool.


yea it is but it's in a honda. there's no real VW support.....yet.....I'm working on that though


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Prof315 said:


> yea it is but it's in a honda. there's no real VW support.....yet.....I'm working on that though


Damn Hondas!


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

pretty easy to set up once ready! ( the videos are a little slow sorry )

once everything is connected, provide power to the gauge with the o2 sensor disconnected and out of the exhaust and the gauge will sweep the needle and come up with a message saying " E2" which is fine, it just means it isn't reading an o2

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/ericmasters/?action=view&current=2011-06-23_10-36-01_34.mp4


then after you get the E2 message leave it on for about a minute, and power down. then connect your o2 sensor, but leave it in the free air and NOT in the exhaust. (this is so the o2 sensor can calibrate itself in open air and be ready, and it can be re-calibrated at any time.) once connected, put power back to the gauge, and itll sweep and then say HTR, for heater because its powering up the sensor, and then HTR will change to do its calibration, and then it should say 22.4 if correct. power back down.

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/ericmasters/?action=view&current=2011-06-23_10-36-42_436.mp4


install o2 sensor, and you can disconnect it to install it, as long as you dont power the gauge back up because then itll reset. once installed, reconnect any plugs if you need, and start!

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/ericmasters/?action=view&current=2011-06-23_11-06-58_76.mp4


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

will take driving video in a few, also this thing is super nice, is reads quick and fast, it doesnt jump all over the place, and my check engine light went off before i went even a mile!  good so far and its running a lot smoother


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Win. :thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Once warm, what is your af at idle? I also noticed your only pulling 10 in hg on your boost gauge, what do you get once warm, you might have a vacuum leak.


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Once warm, what is your af at idle? I also noticed your only pulling 10 in hg on your boost gauge, what do you get once warm, you might have a vacuum leak.


i just took a bunch of videos of my cars af before driving idle, after driving idle, and decel and whatnot, i need a second person to read it in full boost haha

anytime i start my car and its cold, it takes a few seconds for the vacuum to get down to 20. after i drive and the engine is heated up, it sits right around 19-20. should it instantly be 20 at idle? could that show signs of a leak

heres my idle which fluctuates between like 13.5 and 14.5 and you can see how my vacuum slowly goes to 20

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/ericmasters/?action=view&current=2011-06-23_15-35-12_348.mp4

since im trying to drive in full boost and hold my camera phone its pretty hard haha but you can see right when im in boost the gauge needle is in the green so it seems good but once i get a second person i can give you the boost af ratio. 

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/ericmasters/?action=view&current=2011-06-23_15-38-02_840.mp4

my hard decel is 22.4 always


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

this is more like it  need to secure the gauge a bit more i guess haha such a noticeable difference in the car already


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CSHofqKeNw

looks like in boost i saw a 11.5 at the lowest and 12.5 highest


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=0006&product=FMDVSUPR

this should be in hopefully in a few days


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Sounds good man, How much boost you running?


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

10lbs for now, i have a new timing kit and the C2 9.5:1 HG waiting to go in so that i can turn up the boost more


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Word, just got done doing a refresh on mine. Yours pulls pretty good for 10psi, what turbo are you running?


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Word, just got done doing a refresh on mine. Yours pulls pretty good for 10psi, what turbo are you running?


its a garret T04E .60 trim with a .82 hotside and yeah i was surprised at how well its pulling now!


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

ericmasters said:


> its a garret T04E .60 trim with a .82 hotside and yeah i was surprised at how well its pulling now!


Same here. Your car was not running as well before?


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## ericmasters (Sep 18, 2005)

no, it was alright but it definitely didnt feel this clean. plus my o2 was bad so it definitely needed it, as well as the maf i need to do next


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