# VW suspension primer/FAQ



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus*

A MkIV "coil-over" strut assembly:









Phatvw's master DIY/FAQ list:

What is this FAQ all about?
I wrote this FAQ to help save people money and get the most fun and utility out of thier VW's. Use it to decide how to restore an old suspension or to upgrade to something even better.

The Internet is full of useless opinions - especially mine
# Do a little hands-on research and seek test drives in modified cars. That's the only way to really find what you like. You may need to try several times to get it right. Formula-1 teams go through hundreds of design iterations when preparing a car for a season and still go through dozens of tweaks just to setup for a particular race track.
# Bottom line is you have to make a decision. Don't get caught up researching for too long. Save up the cash, pick something, and have fun!
# The focus of this article is on PERFORMANCE. Not lowering, aesthetics nor comfort.
General info:
# shocks=struts=dampers A strut is basically the same as a shock except it has an integrated spring perch and is used only is specific suspensions like the MacPherson design. Damper is the more generic term.
# Under-steer is the tendency of the car to go straighter when you want it to turn - i.e. plowing straight off the road. Over-steer is the tendency of the car to turn when you want to go straighter i.e. spinning out. Neutral is a delicate balance right in between.
# ANY car can be made to under-steer OR over-steer depending on the conditions and driver-inputs.
# In a front-heavy, front-wheel drive car such as most watercooled VW's, there are two kinds of under-steer. The first is chassis/suspension-induced under-steer. By design, the front wheels lose grip before the rears when we go into a tight turn. The second is power-induced - when you add throttle (gas pedal) at the limit of grip, the front wheels start slipping and you get under-steer.
# This is the opposite of many rear-wheel drive cars where adding throttle promotes over-steer.
# Not all RWD cars over-steer. Under steady-state conditions many RWD cars under-steer and will only over-steer when you add more throttle to break the rear tires loose. For untrained drivers, under-steer is far safer than over-steer and is thus the majority design-choice of automakers.

What to upgrade first?
# Tires and driving technique affect ultimate grip more than anything else. Upgrade those first if you're serious about good handling, otherwise you're wasting your time.
# Do you think you're a good driver? Why not prove it by taking a high-performance driving skills class on a closed-circuit. You are probably a crappy driver and you don't even know it. The amount of money you spend on upgrades has nothing to do with your driving skill. Ask in your regional forum for more info.
# High-school drivers-ed courses are a joke - they do not teach you how to drive at all. They only teach you the rules of the road and the very basics of operating a motor vehicle.
# Even if you take all the courses in the world, driving in traffic is unpredictable. Be safe and enjoy your car responsibly.

The prioritized suspension performance upgrade list (biggest bang-for-buck):
# optimized tire pressures (usually 3-5PSI higher than OEM rating)
# fix worn or broken parts such as tie-rods, ball-joints, bearings, bushings, mounts, bumpstops, etc
# performance alignment (usually max negative camber, 1/8th toe out on front axle)
# driver skills
# performance tires
# dampers
# sway bars
# springs
# camber plates
# re-located suspension points via optimized spindles/steering knuckles (such as Audi TT or H2Sport for MkIV cars)
# upgraded bushings/bearings
# strut bars/roll cages/chassis & frame stiffeners
# aerodynamics, limited slip differentials and 4WD conversions can have a huge impact on handling & grip, but they are not strictly suspension modifications and are beyond the scope of this article.

Is lower really better? Roll-center vs Center-of-Gravity
# Lower is not always better. Formula-1 cars are low, but they also have a design budget of several million dollars and never encounter potholes.
# Center of gravity (CG) is not the only consideration - it is just one small part of the picture. Other parts include roll-centers (RC), camber curves, and suspension travel. CG is the easiest concept for manufacturers to convey in advertising so they always imply that lower CG = better handling. While this is an easy sell to the un-enlightened masses, it simply isn't true for all cars For some car designs this may be true, but not for the specific McPherson Strut design on most VW cars. Get technical
# Lower does look cool to a lot of younger folks, but when you get older, higher looks better since you're less concerned about impressing your friends with your suspension and more interested in actually using your car and getting your money's worth from it. A low car just isn't practical.

What if I still want to lower but maintain or improve handling?
# A lot of folks ask this. The bottom line is that if you want to do it right, its going to be expensive. Don't expect to out-handle a Subaru STI by slapping on a set of $100 ebay lowering springs. Figure out your priorities. Do you really want handling, or do you just want to feel cool? Or maybe you just want to spend money? Figure that out first and you'll get a lot more help on the forums. To really impress your friends, there are some creative alternatives to lowering springs.
# You can modify the fenders and side skirts to look lower while maintaining your suspension height.
# You can correct some of the geometry, camber curve, and bump-steer issues of a lower suspension by swapping out the oem spindles (aka knuckles or hub-carriers) for Audi-TT or H2Sport.com units in the case of MkIV cars. Hint: check the main FAQ.
# You can cut and weld your car and totally modify the suspension pickup-points.

What do road-holding and handling actually mean?
# Handling feel and road-holding are two entirely different concepts: handling is subjective while road-holding is objective. Both contribute to better lap times at the race circuit, but road-holding is more important. If you are familiar with popular car magazines, road-holding roughly translates to the skid-pad and slalom test scores while handling-feel translates to the test driver's comments about the car.
# Any spring kit will change handling-feel and make you think your car is faster, but when you record your lap times, you may actually be slower. You won't know for sure until you test it out. Don't assume that a modified suspension is better than the OEM suspension. Those Volkswagen engineers know what they're doing believe it or not!

Comfort, suspension travel, and bump-stops
# You need suspension travel for maximum grip on rough/bumpy surfaces. Look how much suspension travel rally cars have! When you go lower, you may lose grip and speed on the street.
# You need suspension travel for good comfort. There is no way around this.
# Bump-stops (rubber things at the end of the damper shaft) act as secondary springs which prevent damage to the damper and increase spring rate.
# Many lowering kits "ride" on firm bump-stops meaning there is no free suspension travel. This makes the car feel stiff and sporty, but road-holding is worse on bumpy surfaces and comfort is greatly reduced.
# Some lowering spring kits require that you cut a section of the OEM bump-stop out, so that you do not "ride" on them. For each inch of lowering, remove an inch from the bump-stop. For best results, remove a section from the middle of the bump-stop rather than the top or bottom. This helps preserve the non-linear ramp-up of the bump-stop stiffness for comfort. Use crazy glue to stick the two end-pieces back together.
# Dampers affect ride comfort a lot more than springs. You can have springs that are double or triple oem stiffness, but with proper suspension travel and specially tuned dampers, you can be comfortable and controlled.

Can I keep my OEM dampers?/I think my dampers are wearing out
# Stiffer springs generally do not work well with OEM dampers, especially when the springs are lower. Ever see Honda kids bumping up and down on the highway? That's because they chose not to install proper dampers for their springs. Not only is it wearing out all the parts of their suspension, it is a road hazard waiting to happen because when you're bouncing around you're not in control.
# If you can't afford dampers, wait. You'll end up paying more later if you use OEM dampers with stiffer or lower springs. The OEM dampers will wear out and then you'll be sorry about your crappy ride.
# OEM dampers on OEM springs last a long time for non-enthusiasts. However, many enthusiasts notice that the performance decreases over time and some folks believe their dampers are completely "shot" after 20-40k miles. Testing on this is inconclusive, but dampers, and especially the oil inside them, wear out eventually. If your car is a few years old, chances are the dampers are not "shot" but then they probably don't perform like day-1 either. The best bet is to replace them with a quality aftermarket brand. You'll pay more than the oem replacements, but unless you're planning to sell the car real soon, its worth it in the long-run.

Can I swap my current OEM suspension for another OEM suspension from another VW car?
# Many folks believe swapping out their OEM suspension for a 337/GLI or similar lowered OEM suspension will improve handling. It really doesn't do much except change the look. You still have the low-quality dampers which will wear out. From a return-on-investment perspective, it just doesn't make sense to pay money to install another OEM suspension. You are much better off getting aftermarket dampers and keeping your existing springs.
# Ok you understand all that, but you still want to do the swap. What will fit? Any OEM suspension from the same platform (i.e. MkIV) will fit. For example you can swap Golf/Jetta and 1.8/VR6 springs no problem. Your ride height may be a little weird and your handling balance may not be the same due to different weight distributions between cars. But if you've decided to do the swap, you probably don't care about the performance implications.
# Some folks like using the 20thAE/337 suspension (~150# all around) on the MkIV VR6 cars: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3148512

Gap between the strut tower and the top plate in engine bay?
# Don't worry, that is normal. Turn your steering wheel all the way and you'll see one gap grow larger as the other one becomes smaller. If the gap gets much larger than 1/2" or so, you may need to replace the strut bushings/bearing (see below), however, even a brand-new car has that gap.

What about OEM hardware and suspension rebuild kits? Poly bushings?
# Strut bushings and bearings wear out and should be replaced every 4 years /50,000 miles for best performance. Also, any time you install a new suspension it is a good idea to inspect or replace the strut bearings/bushings regardless of their age.
# Lower-control-arm bushings wear out and should be replaced with OEM equivalents every 4 years/50,000 miles or so for best performance as well.
# Polyurethane bushings are not a good choice for the VW design despite what aftermarket companies say. They generally feel stiff and sporty for a while but wear out quickly. Plus many need to be lubed regularly while oem bushings are maintenance-free. If you want the stiffest-and-sportiest setup, and the most expensive, you do not want a bushing at all; you want a spherical bearing. Get Technical | LCA bushing DIY | Discussion
# tie-rod ends, ball-joints, and rear upper shock mounts should be replaced every 100,000 miles for best performance. Rear-axle bushings can also be replaced, but the process is much more involved.
# Alignments are important. As tires and parts wear, it is more important to get routine wheel alignments. Most cars do well with zero toe or 1/8th toe-out up front and even camber/caster side to side. Unless you have AWD/4WD don't worry about the rear as there usually aren't any adjustments.

Clunks or other noises from suspension?
# Suspension noises can be difficult to diagnose. The most likely causes of suspension noises are the following rubber bushings and bearings:
Front:
# upper strut mount - clunks, BIG gap in engine bay
# upper strut bearing - clunks when steering
# LCA bushing - clunks when braking, erratic steering feedback under heavy acceleration/braking
# swaybar [email protected] rack- clunks when corning, especially 90° parking-lot turns over curbs, etc
# swaybar end-link - clunks
# ball-joint - bunch of different symptoms
# steering - tie-rod end (outer & inner) - alignment issues
# axle - CV joint - clicking when turning and accelerating slightly
# wheel bearing - whirring noise that increases with speed - whole wheel assembly has play
Rear noise?
# 99% of the time, it's a loose 16mm bolt on the shock- there are 3 of them per side
# Sometimes the upper shock mount goes bad internally - there is a metal plate surrounded by a rubber bushing. If the rubber wears too thin, the plate will clank against the outer housing. This should be replaced Check the shock nut which fastens the mount to the shock shaft as well. It need to be torqued to spec.
# aftermarket swaybar - check those bushings & clamps especially H&R which are notorious for wearing out and snapping.

Do I need to replace my front sway bar (FSB)?/Do I need a FSB?
# Your car comes with an OEM FSB aka stabilizer bar. When you lower, there is a chance that the drive axle will hit the sway-bar when riding over bumps. There are a few options.
# You can try aftermarket swaybar end-links to position the FSB further away from the drive axle. Note, this solution works for most cars, but some cars with extreme lowering will still have clearance issues. Refer to the manufacturer regarding how to adjust the links for your particular swaybar setup.
# You can replace the oem bar with an aftermarket bar that is shaped a little differently. If you get a thicker bar, the car will feel flatter in turns, but will under-steer more. Some successful auto-x setups use large front bars, but this is not popular for street or road-racing.
# You can also remove the FSB altogether, but this can make your car's handling unpredictable in emergency situations on the street and is only recommended for track/closed-course use.
# Yet another alternative is to use aftermarket steering knuckles.spindles which change the pickup points of the suspension to correct these issues such as http://www.h2sport.com
# For drops less than 2", you won't know if you actually need end-links or a new bar until you try it. Many folks take the wait-and-see approach. After you install the suspension, listen for clunks while driving. If you don't hear clunks, great! If you hear clunks, drive slow, don't corner hard, and take it REALLY easy going over any sort of potholes or speed bumps. Its ok to drive for a couple days like this while you wait for your new parts to arrive in the mail.

Coil-overs are better, I mean they cost more so they must be... right?
# Adjustable "coil-overs" are good for one thing: balancing the diagonal cross-weight so that left and right turns have equal grip. This is called corner balancing Sounds neat - but it doesn't really do a whole lot for street performance and only helps for pro drivers in competition where every millisecond counts. Other than that, coil-overs are just a spring and a damper like any other kit. Nothing special.
# You can use coil-overs to adjust ride height instead of corner-balancing. You generally cannot do both since the act of corner-balancing will throw your ride heights all wacky and vice versa.
# When you change ride-height with coil-overs, even an inch, you may need to get an alignment. Hint: invest in a lifetime alignment at Firestone or get some DIY camber gauges and toe plates to check your alignment at home. You don't want to chew through your expensive 19" tires in 3 months do you?
# Its official; bragging about how much drop you have on your "coil-overs" is lame. Go record your lap times at the local race course instead.

Do strut/stress bars/braces help handling?
# Yes and no. In mony cases its not worth the extra weight from a performance perspective but some folks like them for the look and feel. In any case, these should be the last item on your mod list since the return on investment is usually quite small.
# There are exceptions. Some bars can reduce cabin vibration which is important to some folks. In older cars where there is a lot of chassis flex, these bars can actually make a big difference, but the effect is generally minimal on a new car.
# Update: MkIV sub-frame stiffening can yield impressive results.

What about a roll cage? I like it stiff!
# Not for a street car!!! Unless you wear a helmet driving around town, getting a full roll cage is about the dumbest mod you can do to a street car. Heads and steel tubes don't mix. You think a half-inch of foam padding is gonna protect you? Get your friend to whack you in the face with a padded steel pole as hard as they can. If that doesn't hurt, by all means get a roll cage.
# If you want to get a half-roll cage for the rear of the car, thats fine as long as you don't have rear passengers. A full roll-cage will protect you much more than a half-cage.
# You will need a 4 or 5-point harness and appropriate harness bar if you have a roll cage. A regular factory seatbelt just doesn't cut it and you probably won't pass safety inspection at most race tracks.

Do I need a camber kit?
# For VW's you generally don't need a camber kit when modifying suspension. Unlike Honda cars, the camber doesn't change a whole lot when lowering. Camber is mainly for performance tuning. You still need an alignment though.

MkIV Stock spring rates (courtesy Pyce)
Front
Rear


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## seesquared (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

Nice writeup! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Now how do we get this added to the main FAQ thread?


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

This thread needs a sticky or at least a link in the FAQ.


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (briang)*

I particularly like your line of trying things several times before getting it right. On my A4 I've gone from stock to Shine to Stock springs with Bilstein HDs to Stock Springs with Koni Reds. From 15" wheels to 16" back to 15. I'm on my third set of springs on my A3, second set of dampers, and bought my third (!) set of tires today. And I'm signed up for two driving schools this spring. 
Trial and error. Fortunately it's fairly easy to sell used suspension components.


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## Bagman (Jun 8, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

Great write up! Thanks. You're quite candid in some spots, so one needs to read with a grain of salt.








In your opinion, what is the better way to go:
Car is Mk2. Person wants to lower a decent and understandable amount. Person wants an good improvement in performance, but does not want the ride to be overly harsh. Coilovers of a quality brand or Strut/Spring combo of a quality brand?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

Nice write-up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .I'm new to suspension tuning but looks like I'm doing things in the right order. Tires were first. Next are coilovers.


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## oj1480 (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

very cool
i read it all http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Kenji1013 (Feb 24, 2003)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

I have a new GLI and I read somewhere that the European version is about 2" lower than the US version. Is that true? If so, what are we looking at for $$$ and effort to change over?


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## calfonso (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

Great writeup! Jus acquired a 97 Jetta GLX with blown struts and shocks. Really like the Shine RSS and have read a lot of good stuff about them. 
My main suspension goals for the car are:
*streetable
*will barely see the track (haven't tried an event yet)
*keep stock height for suspension travel, be able to drive car during the harsh winters in MI
After reading the testimonials on the Shine setup, I'm pretty much sold but I am still open for ideas since it's going to be a while before I can even consider buying a set for the car. I may just consider buying performance dampers to cure my "cadillac" ride.
I have a questions re: the statement below 
_Quote »_Strut bushings and bearings do wear out and should be replaced every 4 years /50,000 miles for best performance. Also, any time you install a new suspension it is a good idea to replace the bearings/bushings too. They are cheap.

Are you referring to jus the strut bushings/bearings? What others would your recommend. I apologize for the newbish q's and thanx in advance


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## calfonso (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

I reread the quote and u-know


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## Al_ (May 9, 2004)

That was beautiful!!!
It is nice to read something like this since I am interested in tuning my A4's suspension.
I don't want to lower it, but I do want it to not be so soft. My other car is a 92 integra LS and the suspension is very firm, but your butt does not hurt after driving 400 miles.
This wagon tends to get on my nerves when it does a little 'shimmy' when I get on the brakes hard while in a slight turn. Also, the nose drops too much during hard braking.
I think stiffer sway bars are the answer along with a slightly stiffer damper. Because the nose also drops hard without rebounding, would springs be reccomended? Is there a complete kit for the whole 9 yards?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Al_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Al_* »_bars are the answer along with a slightly stiffer damper. Because the nose also drops hard without rebounding, would springs be reccomended? Is there a complete kit for the whole 9 yards?

Try the Shine kit: http://www.srsvw.com


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## vwbora1point8T (Apr 30, 2006)

i have a quick question ive been searching everywhere for, my car is lowered and i noticed that the front sway bar is rubbing the passenger side drive axle and i ordered adjustable end links. Question is: should i make the endlinks longer or shorter than my current stock ones to allow for more clearance? need help asap. thanks ! !


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## AndyBlk18t (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (seesquared)*

Nice thread. Learned quite a bit.
But lets take this a bit further. If the TT bushings are a good+ upgrade, wouldn't also upgrading the LCA to the TT version w/ these uprated bushings be even better? Or is the TT Lower Arm not a direct bolt on. I heard rumors that this was possible, but would like to confirm this.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (AndyBlk18t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AndyBlk18t* »_Nice thread. Learned quite a bit.
But lets take this a bit further. If the TT bushings are a good+ upgrade, wouldn't also upgrading the LCA to the TT version w/ these uprated bushings be even better? Or is the TT Lower Arm not a direct bolt on. I heard rumors that this was possible, but would like to confirm this.









I try to refrain from having long discussions in these FAQ threads, but your question has been asked a few times so its fair game. I have added some more info the the LCA bushing thread to address this: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2300853



_Modified by phatvw at 11:46 AM 9-28-2006_


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## AndyBlk18t (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

Cool Thanks!!


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## Jettar (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (AndyBlk18t)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Shinex1 (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

I read every word of this, thank you for this gem of wisdom!
One thing I was wondering about ... the amount of negative camber that can be squeezed out of a Mark 4? I know this is very minimal, but I was hoping one degree could be coaxed out by a good technician?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (Shinex1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shinex1* »_I read every word of this, thank you for this gem of wisdom!
One thing I was wondering about ... the amount of negative camber that can be squeezed out of a Mark 4? I know this is very minimal, but I was hoping one degree could be coaxed out by a good technician? 

You're most welcome. ~1° +/- 0.5° is the OEM setting on all four corners. If you want a little more check out:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1432095


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## Shinex1 (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
You're most welcome. ~1° +/- 0.5° is the OEM setting on all four corners. If you want a little more check out:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1432095

Thanks ... I had a similiar post on the 20th/GLI forum and got zero response. Glad to have those numbers - getting an alignment tomorrow! That other link looks like a gem too - will check that out


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## howzit-eksee (Mar 24, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (Shinex1)*

thanks for the write up.
i do feel that this whole write up is rather opinion based.
i see that a rear sway bar is 5th on the list. i dont mean to bomb the write up, but a rear sway bar goes below tires. If you state that this list is "bang for the buck" then a $150 rear sway bar takes out understeer and makes the car handle a lot better, compared to damper and springs which cost a lot more and do nothing for understeer. You can have the best dampers, but if the car understeers, you just cant corner as fast you want to.
also, most of the write up basically says do nothing, i.e springs and struts are just as good as coilovers, OEM suspension is good enough, lower does nothing if not only makes things worse, caber plates are not important.
in summery, i can say this write up basically says if you are not a pro race car driver you have no business changing anything, its good enough.
well, i disagree strongly.
Since this is a VW (the people's car) forum, most of the members are not pro race drivers. Actually, if i may remind you, most of them drive a hatchback. simply put, this is an economic car designed for young people and small families, not race car drivers. In short, I am saying there IS A LOT to be modified before these cars have decent handling for the track.
Now to say basically dont do anything unless you are a race car driver i feel is opinionated.
changing out the suspension and adding a rear sway bar is a mild modification compared to what real race cars go through. So i would say we should have a more usefull informative write up on what choices to get, what combos work best, and so on, rather than some write up that basically says that everyone wanting to go do their best on the track should just stick to stock because they are not pro race car drivers. I feel this is not helpful and creates the wrong mentality on the forum.
the reason there are so many thread "WHAT SUSPENSION SHOULD I GET" is simply because of write ups such as this. Where people are trying to get information and they are just being told to go "learn to drive" While this is true, they are not asking anybody for driving advice, they are asking for suspension advice, weather they know how to drive or not.
i can make a write up too, and make a list of things and say you should go learn to drive and everyone will reply with a thumbs up, but this is not helping anybody, especially to those who are wanting to know what upgrades to their cars they can do.
I remember years ago when i first came and asked what suspension to get in this forum, and all i got was a little list such as the one above, and basically a click of people who hang out in the suspension forum say "dont do anything, OEM suspension is good, learn to drive"
well, i went to the Subabru forums, and they had a much better attitude about giving info, and I upgraded my suspension. With a lot of track days behind me, I still learned a lot about driving and have improved greatly. I dont drive an F1 car, so no matter how much i spend on my car, there will still be SOOOOO much to learn in terms of driving.
the posts i find imply that upgrading a suspension will make you have an F1 car and that all your driving mistakes will magically disappear. i dont know where this mentality comes from. This is not even a Porsche, so you can get the best suspension set up for a GTI and still have a lot to learn in terms of driving.

i have much respect for the knowledge everyone in the suspension forum has, but the attitude not to give advice baffles me. I read over and over again threads from people wanting to know what to upgrade and the answer is always exactly the same: "stock suspension wasent made that way for no reason!! Go learn to drive!!!!"
we should call this the "Go learn to drive" forum, not the suspension forum. Very disappointing http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
to anyone wanting the best upgrade for suspension and have the bst bang for the buck, a rear sway bar is the first thing (tires are part of wheelsetup so thats why swaybar is first SUSPENSION UPGRADE)


_Modified by howzit-eksee at 11:36 AM 5-5-2007_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (howzit-eksee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *howzit-eksee* »_thanks for the write up.


Thanks for the comments. I'll have think about what you wrote.
My goal in writing this was to allow folks to learn from all the expensive mistakes myself and others on the forum have made over the years. "Do nothing" is not the intended message, please tell me how I can make that more clear. "Go drive" _is_ the intended message for the purposes of learning what to expect from different modifications and to appreciate the bang-for-the buck.
Learning the vocabulary and being able to describe what it is that you want is of utmost importance. Once an individual is qualified with certain vocabulary and driving experience (does not have to be on a race track, but that helps) then they are in a much better position to make an informed decision.


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## [Oo=MK2=oO]macelius (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

I think that exchange is a good start. "Go Drive" in stead of "Do Nothing", I like that. I think the idea is to differentiate between those who just started driving that want to trick out their car right away, and those who's skills have reached the limit of their equipment and are looking to make an educated decision on the right upgrade for them. I have to give credit to the PO for attempting to make the reader ask themselves the question of "why am I doing this", but I agree with the comment that there is a lack of info for those who are good with their cars (mkII driver going on 12 years), do try different setups, but with the larger expenditures, not many of us have the resources to just try this or that set of suspension and see how we like it, and lets face it, not many of you will let someone take your car for a spin to see how those mods feel and if it suits his driving style. I think we all would like to hear more answers and less negativity. I thought that was a great first post for a faq thread, an awesome intro, making the reader ask themselves the right questions and prepare themselves, now, let's follow it up with some actual specific vw suspension info, lists, links, facts.









_Quote »_Gap between the strut tower and the top plate in engine bay?
Don't worry, that is normal. Turn your steering wheel all the way and you'll see one gap grow larger as the other one becomes smaller. If the gap gets excessive, you may need to replace the strut bushings/bearing (see above), however, even a brand-new car has that gap.

yes, finally on mk5, they bolted the top mounts to the shock towers like every other proper car, suspension redemption for vw in my eyes, i don't care for the way our suspension drops out when the front wheels lift off the ground.
Good will be the day i weld my camber plates.


_Modified by [Oo=MK2=oO]macelius at 10:45 PM 5-16-2007_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ ([Oo=MK2=oO]macelius)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_Oo=MK2=oO_macelius* »_I thought that was a great first post for a faq thread, an awesome intro, making the reader ask themselves the right questions and prepare themselves


Thanks for the kind words. That was exactly my intent with a "primer" thread.

_Quote, originally posted by *_Oo=MK2=oO_macelius* »_
, now, let's follow it up with some actual specific vw suspension info, lists, links, facts.










Hopefully, the main FAQ thread can cover this part of it. I am heavily biased towards MkIV content because thats what I know. Unfortunately, the market for modifications on the older cars is getting smaller every day, so you have to dig deeper to find the info you're looking for.



_Modified by phatvw at 12:25 AM 5-17-2007_


----------



## redzone98 (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (phatvw)*

Anyone out there with mk3 VR / 2.0L OEM spring rate color codes?


----------



## xsrfs (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (redzone98)*

brilliant


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## mk4gtiboy (Feb 26, 2005)

awesome!!! thanks a lot


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## rocco21 (Jan 24, 2007)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (xsrfs)*

how about the older stuff like mid 80 ish stuff. i race the old szit circle track it would be very helpfull thanks in advance


----------



## hectorp (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Great article, It is all so confusing, would like to know your advise.
I own a GTI 20th with 59K, always had a little body flex, had finally replaced suspension.
Went with KW street comfort, the ride is set on soft side 7 clicks front, 2 clicks on back. The ride height is maybe 1/3 inch lower.
The ride is comfortable, but the flexing of the body is a little more, was wondering what would you sugest.
Would really appreciate any advise.
Thanks.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (hectorp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hectorp* »_Great article, It is all so confusing, would like to know your advise.
I own a GTI 20th with 59K, always had a little body flex, had finally replaced suspension.
Went with KW street comfort, the ride is set on soft side 7 clicks front, 2 clicks on back. The ride height is maybe 1/3 inch lower.
The ride is comfortable, but the flexing of the body is a little more, was wondering what would you sugest.
Would really appreciate any advise.
Thanks.

I'm not sure what you mean by body flex? Do you mean your doors not closing properly when your car is on a hill? Or like creaks and groans when you go over a speedbump? Suspension tuning and chassis stiffness are related, but they are not the same thing at all. I encourage you to check out:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2527106
Also I'd prefer to keep the FAQ thread short and to the main point without a lot of discussion. Instead I'd prefer to link to other discussion threads, so go ahead and post in the thread I linked http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## truckeebiofuels (Dec 4, 2007)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Thanks for this. 
I can't find any information about lifting the front end of my 1999 Jetta TDI about 1 or 1.5 inches. 
I found this:
http://www.metalnerd.com/cat09.htm
but have heard I might be able to replace the front shocks with something that would give me the needed 1 - 1.5" . I think I'd prefer the shock replacement option as opposed to the bushings. 
Thanks for any additional insight offered.


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## sestep1 (Dec 6, 2007)

Ok. Here's an easy one. I have a 2004 GTI w/ 63K miles. I'm replacing the tires this weekend. I already have Neuspeed sport springs in the garage, and figured I'd see about picking up some dampers and having the shop put it all together when they put the tires on. I've read that either Bilstein or Koni are decent pairings to these springs. I don't need anything fancy or extreme. Just want a little sportier look and performance.


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (howzit-eksee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *howzit-eksee* »_thanks for the write up.
i do feel that this whole write up is rather opinion based.
i see that a rear sway bar is 5th on the list. i dont mean to bomb the write up, but a rear sway bar goes below tires. If you state that this list is "bang for the buck" then a $150 rear sway bar takes out understeer and makes the car handle a lot better, compared to damper and springs which cost a lot more and do nothing for understeer. You can have the best dampers, but if the car understeers, you just cant corner as fast you want to.
also, most of the write up basically says do nothing, i.e springs and struts are just as good as coilovers, OEM suspension is good enough, lower does nothing if not only makes things worse, caber plates are not important.
in summery, i can say this write up basically says if you are not a pro race car driver you have no business changing anything, its good enough.
well, i disagree strongly.
Since this is a VW (the people's car) forum, most of the members are not pro race drivers. Actually, if i may remind you, most of them drive a hatchback. simply put, this is an economic car designed for young people and small families, not race car drivers. In short, I am saying there IS A LOT to be modified before these cars have decent handling for the track.
Now to say basically dont do anything unless you are a race car driver i feel is opinionated.
Edited... for sanity !








_Modified by howzit-eksee at 11:36 AM 5-5-2007_


The fact of the matter is many people if not most enthusiasts don't even know how their car handles because few have any real experience in HPDE. You see this every time a new model comes out. Immediately the purchaser wants to change/improve the handling, but in most cases they have NO knowledge of what the real handling is. Most people think they can tell by driving on the street how a car handles at the limit. Well for everyone's sake I hope you're not driving at the limit on the street... 
Without actually driving the car in a safe controlled environment to see how the car really handles with proper driving skills, mods are a waste of time and money because most enthusiasts make the handling worse but they don't even know it. The information at the beginning of this thread is useful in that it implies doing all the things people normally do is not the smart thing to do. The thing to do is learn how to drive properly so you can determine what your car is really doing and then use a logical approach to alter the handling to suit your driving. 
Most people don't want to hear the truth so they use selective listening to get reinforcement for their beliefs. If you don't know what your car is doing right or wrong and you don't have the driving skills to determine that, then doing mods is foolish IMNHO until you develop the driving skills.
The REAL reason people keep asking what suspension mods they should make is because they want someone to tell them what they want to hear. Typically they want someone to say: Buy the trick-of-the-week XYZ BFB or BRB or coil-over or tire or whatever. When you suggest that they learn how to drive first so they can determine on their own what the car needs to suit their driving style, they get pissed. Changing the suspension before you can properly drive is putting the cart before the horse and a waste of time and money because you don't know if the mods worked or made it worse.


_Modified by raceware at 11:53 PM 12-25-2007_


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_
The fact of the matter is ...
... many people if not most enthusiasts don't even know how their car handles because few have any real experience in HPDE.

Amen

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_ ... Most people think they can tell by driving on the street how a car handles at the limit. Well for everyone's sake I hope you're not driving at the limit on the street ... 

Amen

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_ ... Most people don't want to hear the truth so they use selective listening to get reinforcement for their beliefs.

Amen

_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_ ... The REAL reason people keep asking what suspension mods they should make is because they want someone to tell them what they want to hear. Typically they want someone to say: Buy the trick-of-the-week XYZ BFB or BRB or coil-over or tire or whatever.


Amen


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## toobs777 (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (f1forkvr6)*

can some one help me? I have a 2006 Jetta GLI and i am looking to lowering it. I really do not race, but i do like the way my would look if it was lower. Now I do not want to do it the micky mouse way. I want to do it right and affordable.\
soory for my spelling


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (toobs777)*

Welcome to the Vortex http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You'll probably get more responses to your question if you create a separate thread asking the questions you posed here.
Try this forum: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=142
They'll be most able to assess your needs and goals.
Should you ever decide to come to the dark side (suspension tuning primarily for performance purposes), c'mon back to this forum and we'll help you the best we can.


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## piscorpio (Jun 13, 2003)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (f1forkvr6)*

A strut is not exactly the same thing as a shock, they serve a similar purpose, but in a different way. Maybe I am being too technical for the purpose of this thread though.


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (piscorpio)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piscorpio* »_A strut is not exactly the same thing as a shock, they serve a similar purpose, but in a different way. Maybe I am being too technical for the purpose of this thread though.

Nope - not too technical for this forum ... but I'm really not sure what your post was trying to add to the topic


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## SGLoki (Dec 12, 2004)

Thanks for the tutorial! you confirmed a lot for me and I learned enough that you probably just saved me a few hundred bucks....and a few hundred more in the long run.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (SGLoki)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SGLoki* »_Thanks for the tutorial! you confirmed a lot for me and I learned enough that you probably just saved me a few hundred bucks....and a few hundred more in the long run. 


Thanks, that means a lot actually. Thats exactly why I wrote the article http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Wow, I just read the entire writeup. 
While I own an MkV and it differs in some ways, most of the article is true for all street cars.
I'm currently on an H&R Sport cupkit 2.2" front, 1.6" rear, with a 24mm H&R rear swaybar, and 225/40 summer tires that I'm really missing right now.
I haven't had the chance to test out the rear swaybar yet as I put it on in winter with my winter setup, but I can't wait. I'm planning on doing some autox this year, so we shall see how it turns out. 
I'm sure I can use driving lessons too. 
One more thing. You mentioned that you should always replace the strut mounts and bearings when you do a suspension install no matter the age of it. I had my cupkit installed at ~18k, but didn't do the aforementioned items. I will plan on replacing them in the next year probably. I'm at 23k now and haven't had any weird noises when turning or anything like that.
Anyhow, thanks for taking the time for writing that up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (g60_corrado_91)*

Okay, you agree with the lowering = less performance, yet you lowered 2.2" up front







and 1.6" in the rear







and you are going to auto-x





























I'm sure you have the "look" you're going for, but if you want to be at all competitive, put the stock stuff back on before trying to tame the cones.


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## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *f1forkvr6* »_Okay, you agree with the lowering = less performance, yet you lowered 2.2" up front







and 1.6" in the rear







and you are going to auto-x





























I'm sure you have the "look" you're going for, but if you want to be at all competitive, put the stock stuff back on before trying to tame the cones.

Okay...
I don't have to win the autox competition. I just want to have fun doing it. 
Is that a problem for you?








In the end, it's my car and money.








Also, while it is lower, have you seen how high the stock MkV suspension is on an 06? Anything lower than what I am is probably a threat, but I'm sure mine will still be competitive.


_Modified by g60_corrado_91 at 11:20 PM 2-10-2008_


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (g60_corrado_91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60_corrado_91* »_
Okay...
I don't have to win the autox competition. I just want to have fun doing it. 
Is that a problem for you?









Nope ... just pointing out your position is counterintuitive to the main thrust of this thread ...


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## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *f1forkvr6* »_
Nope ... just pointing out your position is counterintuitive to the main thrust of this thread ...

Yes, you're right.
I'll let you know how I do. My friend with his stock suspension MkV GTI may autox too, so I can tell you how we both did. Obviously there's still variables though. Different tires and driver skills.


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## shwamo83 (May 22, 2004)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

is there another name for steering knuckle/spindle because I can not find anywhere online that sells them by that name? please help
thanks


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (shwamo83)*

steering knuckle = wheel bearing housing = spindle.
http://www.ECStuning.com lists them as both "steering knuckle" and "bearing housing"


_Modified by phatvw at 10:37 AM 4-18-2008_


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## shwamo83 (May 22, 2004)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

thank you!


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## oldschool86045 (Mar 22, 2005)

this thread is my hero.


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## Elrod49 (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Thanks for the detailed writeup. I've been scouring the forums to get educated on MkIV suspension setups and haven't seen anyone address this issue.
I see a lot threads about how far is too far to lower your car before you start having negative handling characteristics to deal with. However, doesn't it depend on which model/options your starting from?
Example: 1" drop on a stock 337/AE suspension w/17" wheels is going to be different from a 1" drop on a Golf non-sport suspension w/15" wheels.
Case in Point: Autotech claim's different drop heights on their ClubSport suspension depending on the car.


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (Elrod49)*

All "drops" lower than stock - non sport, non 337, non AE heights - will detrimentally affect handling.


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## Elrod49 (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (f1forkvr6)*

I wouldn't say detrimentally. It depends on how low you go. A mild drop isn't detrimental.


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (Elrod49)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Elrod49* »_I wouldn't say detrimentally. It depends on how low you go. A mild drop isn't detrimental.

Folks have tested drops and found that as little as 1/4 inch on a MK4 has a noticeable, and detrimental, impact. I think eggroller was involved in these tests.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (f1forkvr6)*

A pro driver might notice even a 1/8" change in ride height and itsnegative effects on handling WITHOUT the use of a g-tech or other instrumentation.
Your average driver probably wouldn't notice anything until you lowered more than 1.5".
Its been shown that a g-tech can record differences in cornering with even 1/4" ride hight change!


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## Elrod49 (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (f1forkvr6)*

Are you saying that if you "drop" your car lower than a 337/AE suspension, you're going to affect handling?
What is the ride height difference between my car (non-sport suspension 15" wheels) and a 337/AE?


_Modified by Elrod49 at 8:42 AM 4-28-2008_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (Elrod49)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Elrod49* »_Are you saying that if you "drop" your car lower than a 337/AE suspension, you're going to affect handling?
What is the ride height difference between my car (non-sport suspension 15" wheels) and a 337/AE?


Thats exactly what we're saying. As long as you hold other variables constant (vehicle weight, tires, wheels etc. There are many other things different between the cars that can affect handling. The 337/AE is about 1" lower than you car depending on options engine/transmission etc. Visit a VW dealer and see how different the ride heights really are. Even two cars that appear to have the same options can have different ride heights!


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## pharph (Apr 23, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Great writeup! Thanks.


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## xphiledan (Aug 11, 2003)

*FV-QR*

here's a cache:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=...fox-a


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## Wermz (Jul 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (xphiledan)*

Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Sit down and read one day, and the next day Poof, gone.


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## pharph (Apr 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (xphiledan)*

And such a great write-up too. Sorry to hear the news. I can only imagine how that conversation went.


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## Veedub_junky (Aug 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (xphiledan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xphiledan* »_here's a cache:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=...fox-a

I don't know if that's a permanent cache, but if not, someone should probably make it permanent or re-make the thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Veedub_junky)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Veedub_junky* »_
I don't know if that's a permanent cache, but if not, someone should probably make it permanent or re-make the thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Why? The VWV "community" crapped all over phat and others that tried to explain the truth behind our suspension designs - why should "these folks" benefit from the person they shat upon?







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## jetta48 (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

I certainly enjoyed your primer - good info. I have a simple question. As respects the rider side LCA on a 2001 Jetta GLX. With the car jacked up it is impossible to get the bolt out on the inside of the LCA next to the pan. What is the best method for getting the bolt out and then replacing a new LCA. I already took out the driver side LCA along with the CV Joint and didn't encounter this problem.
Thanks for your help.
SM


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## Veedub_junky (Aug 13, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (jetta48)*

What you have to do is loosen the motor mounts and jack up the engine (easiestvia the oil pan with a block of wood to spread the load). Kind of a PITA if you are working on jackstands, but doable.


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## ComradePie (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for the write up! Very well laid out. I wouldn't do the suspension tuning myself, but I will take your advice to whomever I have do the work. Solid!!!


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## gfunk00 (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: (ComradePie)*

Thank you. I have a 337 and I have decided to wait on suspension for now. The reason is I want to prep my car for track days. I will do a few days with my factory suspension and see how that works.
I will get some sticky tires and race compound pads as a starting point.
I will focus on other things now like turbo back etc. 
I really agree with the idea of driving first to establish a baseline understanding of the car. I may find that I like the stock suspension better. I have driven a car with MK4 golf with a rear sway bar and noticed a huge improvement (In my opinion) so that may happen between track day one and track day two.
Off to research tires and brake pads! Cheers! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dtj318 (Jun 3, 2006)

*bilstein TCs w Eibach sportlines*

will bilstein TCs work well with eibach sportlines? im lowering my car i need to buy some shocks/struts i dont have alot of money to spend tho i saw these for cheap just wondering if i have to get the more expensive yellow bilsteins or will the black sport TCs work with eibach sports? thanks


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## DAVEG (Aug 14, 2001)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Good information...I was interested in lowering the front 3/4 to 1" to reduce understeer (more weight on rear) and improve aero-dynamics. I was told that just lowering with coil over or lower springs hurts the geometry. Can or should I switch spindles to allow lowering and can I use OEM or lower height with revised spindles?


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## E30 all day (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (toobs777)*

what about high horse power cars what suspension would work and do best


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## ROC DOC (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Very informative...thanks! I would like to open up a discussion on the rear alignment. You stated: "Alignments are important. As tires and parts wear, it is more important to get routine wheel alignments. Most cars do well with zero toe or 1/8th toe-out up front and even camber/caster side to side. Unless you have AWD/4WD don't worry about the rear as there usually aren't any adjustments".
I know that the toe can be corrected using shims plates. In addition if you're rear thrust angle is off the rear will "dog track" down the road.
Rear thrust angle is less easily adjustable, but I would recommend 4 wheel alignment to anyone.


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## resqguy77 (Dec 18, 2008)

Ok...I have read all of this and I still would like some constructive input. 
I have a 95 Cabrio w/110k (purchased at 98k) and I dont think anything has ever been done to the suspension (maintenance/repairs). I am going to be replacing the cv axles soon. Both are shot. And I would like to overhaul the suspension as well. I am sure it needs all new bushings, tie rods, ball joints etc. 
Is there a good shock/strut package out there? I am not looking for high performance, racing, etc. I just want a good handling car for daily drives and weekend cruising.
Thanks for any help.


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## SPICYchunk (Oct 28, 2008)

i have a mkv gti and i want to drop it 2.0"
would it be too low? and how would it look like?
thanks!


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## granaldistomatopie (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

I just posted a new topic, but basically, I want to moderately increase the handling on my '04 GLI without jepordizing ride quality. I don't want ot lower it, so I was thinking H&R OE's with Bilstein T/C's.


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## Emmanuel (May 30, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Battery died on '03 VR6 GTI... is Sears or dealership better 4 new one?
Finally, my battery died after 6.5 years. Do I go with the dealership battery, Sears, or someone else? I noticed a HUGE price difference between various retailers. Is the OEM battery better than a Sears? Any significant difference in weight of batteries from one manufacturer to another? Just trying to figure out where to go for a new one. Thanks!
____________________________
www.wasserbettenhife.com
gelato


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## Mr. Friday (Apr 21, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

i love how this thread started out with a great write-up about suspension upgrades and degenerates into a question about where to find the best battery.
hilarious.


_Modified by Mr. Friday at 3:23 PM 6-3-2009_


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## jetta48 (Jan 12, 2005)

I wouldn't worry too much about a battery unless you live in an extremely cold or hot climate - or you are pushing a big amp. Check the local parts stores & internet sales for the cold cranking amps required on your vehicle. Sometimes Optima batteries can be priced competitively (red top or Yellow top)


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## Rays_2001gti (May 31, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

This helped out a lot... Just bought coils an my axle rubs am gonna try the least expensive things. NICE RESEARCH


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## hyeedo818 (Mar 10, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

So basically putting a rear sway bar wont improve handling performance?


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (Mr. Friday)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Friday* »_i love how this thread started out with a great write-up about suspension upgrades and degenerates ....

Fixed it for you. I have now wasted even more time on this more recently useless forum .... (It used to be pretty good).


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## unmilionusd (Jul 6, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

what s is the best hard or soft??


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (unmilionusd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *unmilionusd* »_what s is the best hard or soft??

Context is everything ...








You've included none ...


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## magnosis (Feb 7, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (Emmanuel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Emmanuel* »_Battery died on '03 VR6 GTI... is Sears or dealership better 4 new one?
Finally, my battery died after 6.5 years. Do I go with the dealership battery, Sears, or someone else?

I'm probably the most n00b poster here, but still, this post could hardly be more off-topic







come on guy, a little effort please


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## magnosis (Feb 7, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (f1forkvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *f1forkvr6* »_
Context is everything ...








You've included none ...









LOL.
My GF's 2 cents: hard is always better.


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## magnosis (Feb 7, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Clunks or other noises from suspension?
# Suspension noises can be difficult to diagnose. The most likely causes of suspension noises are the following rubber bushings and bearings:
Front:
# upper strut mount - clunks, BIG gap in engine bay
# upper strut bearing - clunks when steering
# LCA bushing - clunks when braking, erratic steering feedback under heavy acceleration/braking
# swaybar [email protected] rack- clunks when corning, especially 90° parking-lot turns over curbs, etc
# swaybar end-link - clunks
# ball-joint - bunch of different symptoms
# steering - tie-rod end (outer & inner) - alignment issues
# axle - CV joint - clicking when turning and accelerating slightly
# wheel bearing - whirring noise that increases with speed - whole wheel assembly has play
Rear noise?
# 99% of the time, it's a loose 16mm bolt on the shock- there are 3 of them per side
# Sometimes the upper shock mount goes bad internally - there is a metal plate surrounded by a rubber bushing. If the rubber wears too thin, the plate will clank against the outer housing. This should be replaced Check the shock nut which fastens the mount to the shock shaft as well. It need to be torqued to spec.
# aftermarket swaybar - check those bushings & clamps especially H&R which are notorious for wearing out and snapping.

My front struts are making squeeky noises, just by pushing down hard on the front-end w my own weight (e.g. sitting on it). I feel excessive roll during hard turns yet the car doesn't go waving up & down like a civic when I hit a bump. Visual inspection didn't reveal any leak from the shocks whatsoever nor any sign of breakage on the springs. I've had busted shocks before and they were pissing out oil like crazy.
Any way to test 'em beside driver feel ? I've had ppl test drive me only to tell me everything was fine, I'm no autox expert pilot but my guts tells me there's definitely something wrong.
These are Bilstein/Neuspeed combo with 1" drop, driven for 5 yrs now. I did hit a few potholes over that period of time. Should I expect more life out of these ? Or is 5yrs of hard cornering on rough Quebec roads asking too much out of these ?


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## magnosis (Feb 7, 2006)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (magnosis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *myself* »_I hope this remains in-topic, and not overly n00b for this thread








Could we get a short list of the most popular brands & models that people use on MKIV's ? Such that lesser experienced buyers like me can at least start their research and test-drives with a decent baseline.
As I'm looking at different retailers I'm quickly getting swarmed under dozens after dozens of different shocks/springs/struts combos and getting a hard time to differentiate. Imagine the time and $ spent on testing them all








Maybe even sort 'em by stiffness or something like that would also benefits the lesser experienced people








Just a wish. Don't be afraid to relocate if this doesn't belong here...

Self-reply : it's all here under "Suspension Comparisons/Reviews" (and there aren't "dozens and dozens"..)
# MkIV Sofsport/Bilstein HD
# MkIV Shine/Sofsport comparison
# MkIV Koni Yellow/Red + Sofsport review
# MkIV Shine "Lite" setup comparisons
# H2Sport+Shine


_Modified by magnosis at 3:20 PM 8-17-2009_


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## avs1sa (Feb 2, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

its all bout TEIN coilovers!!!


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## avs1sa (Feb 2, 2009)

*Re: (resqguy77)*


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## avs1sa (Feb 2, 2009)

*Re: (resqguy77)*








http://www.hpautoworks.com/images/tein%20ss%20comparison.jpg


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (avs1sa)*

edited to remove useless commentary


_Modified by f1forkvr6 at 8:37 PM 9-22-2009_


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## jeallen01 (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: Year 2000 Mk IV Golf TDI Variant/Estate - Standard Height Springs?*

Hi Folks
Most of the threads relate to lowering/stiffer shocks, but, in one of the of them, I noted a comment that there are literally dozens (if not hundreds) of original fit VAG spring combinations for the Mk IV.
Therefore, does anyone know of a source of information where some of these are defined or discussed, because what I am looking for are standard height front spings for my TDI estate/variant that are stiffer than original fit?
I suspect that these may have been available for later models which might be heavier at the front - possibly the 2.0l PDI versions, or for similar Skoda Octavias or SEATs which tend to have a more "positive" ride than the VW variations on the Mk IV theme
So, would anyone have any suggestions, as these would be most welcome, ?
Thanks in advance
John


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## jeallen01 (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (magnosis)*

With respect to the links to Peter Pyce's pages on spring rates, could anybody interpret the meaning of the colour (I'm British!) codes of the boxes shown in the jpegs for the Front and Rear Springs?








Without this, the only real information I can make out is the actual spring rates for the various MkIV/A3 models. 
Thanks in advance.
John


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## pnw_dubz (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (jeallen01)*

The coloured boxes refer to the paint splotches on the spring as shipped from the factory. Look at the paint and refer to Pyce's chart to see what approximate spring rate you have. Sometimes the colors aren't exact i.e. pink looks like orange.


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## jetta PWR (Apr 5, 2009)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ (seesquared)*

wow, great write up


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## tbav (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: VW suspension primer/FAQ with MkIV focus (phatvw)*

Good primer. I can vouch for the pitfalls of a poor suspension upgrade choice on my MKIII GTI, specifically cheap(Raceland) coilovers. I live fairly cose to a decent road course (VIR), and have had the good fortune to run there 8 times over the past couple of years. This has provided me with the opportunity to incrementally evaluate performance mod.s to my car near or at its limits, in a repeatable fashion - something simply not possible on the street (unless the metrics are confined to very simple ones: skid pad cornering and straight ahead speed). The dynamics of driving through 17 turns over 3+ miles as fast as one's abilities and hardware allow cannot be duplicated elsewhere, and performance mod.s can lead to unexpected results.
Regarding the coilovers, I initially installed them with the heights set to the maximum practical value (lower perches within about 1 in of top ends of the threads), which still dropped the car over 1.5in. This left the front A-arm angles still positive (ends lower then the inner mounting points), which was intentional so as to minimize the camber reversal (from negative to positive) which occurs when the inner mounting points drop well below the outer ends (see below for explanation). Unfortunately to achieve a minimal drop in ride height, the static spring compression was quite high, to the point were the small "helper" springs were mostly compressed before strut installation, and totally compressed when supporting the weight of the car. The resultant ride was that of a cut spring bouevard cruiser: waaaay underdamped and bouncy due to the severe mismatch between shock and spring rates. The only way to compensate for this was to reduce the spring rate by lowering the spring perch (due to the lack of shock rate adjustments), which of course further lowered the car. To achieve any reasonable matching of shock and spring rates, the car had to be dropped about 3 inches front/ 2.5 inches rear. This shifted the A-arm angles slightly negative: the ends were about 1/2in HIGHER than the inner mounting points. The initial street driving impressions were favorable: not overly rude over bumps, and the cornering seemed to have improved. Then came track time...
First, an explanation of the front camber shift (a manifestation of bump steer) as the A-arm inner mounting point height moves with respect to end. To visualize this, think of the A-arm as the radius of a circle and the weight of the car as movement of the pivot point (center of the circle). Assuming that the initial/ static wheel camber is negative, and that the A-arm static angle is positive (end lower than the pivot point), the camber will initially become more negative as the pivot point drops due to weight transfer, such as occurs during cornerning. This is because the A-arm is a fixed length, which means as the pivot point moves down, the bottom of the strut must move out, thus shifting the camber further negative. This is desireable, as the goal of camber is to maintain a wheel attitude as close to perpendicular to the road surface as possible when experiencing high dynamic lateral loads. As more weight is transfered to the A-arm pivot point (harder cornering), it will start to drop below the end point. Again since the radius = A-arm length is fixed, this must result in movement of the lower portion of the strut in towards the center of the car, and consequently a shift in the camber towards positive. Once the instantaneous camber has crossed zero and moved in to the positive territory, the weight is no longer distributed across the tire, but begins riding on the outer edge. Traction is thus reduced when it's needed most: during maximum weight transfer. Result: crappy handling when driving near the limits.
Track time. Everythig started out well during the warm up laps, but once the pace picked up, I noticed that the handling seemed to fade. I intially attributed this to tired tires (this was their 6th straight HDPE), but upon inspection at the end of the run, the wear along the outer edges was readily apparent. This continued throughout the weekend, to the point where I was much slower than I had been previously with the OEM struts, and my tires were down to the cords on the outer edges even though I had plenty of tread over the rest of the surface. The last few sessions were definitely not fun. The only positive parts of the experience were that I hadn't dumped much money in to the struts ($350), and the education of having experienced first hand the foiibles of violating suspension geometry.
Now I'm looking for advice. Who out there has track experience with a MKIII strut setup that really works (better than OEM)? A very modest drop height (not much more than an inch) with well matched and stiffer spring & shock rates would appear to be the ticket. I haven't found any coilovers for which such a low drop wouldn't result in poorly matched spring/ shock rates (since the spring compression to achieve the desired height would be too great). There are some aftermarket springs out there designed for the OEM strut assemblies, but I'd like to profit from other's knowledge before sinking the time and money in to them.


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## 06_JETTA_MASTER (Aug 13, 2010)

Got a MKV Jetta with 55k miles on it. Clunking noise coming from front when going over bumps, other then that suspension feels good. Should I just replace the strut mounts since it seems to early to replace struts with such low miles?


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