# what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done??



## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

now that we have an all motor forum lets get something to talk about.gave up on my boosted project this year,sold everything off. im going back to all motor! figured i would need a good goal ,so why not try to go 9s on motor. first on order would be the engine. figuring i would need 340 whp to get me there. only motor that *should be able to do that would be the 3.2l r motor.paul (need a vr6) says its possible, so we will put his expert tuning abilities to work. so i picked the motor up and we have a start. next would be the chassis, picked that up while i was grabbing the motor. as some of you know i got a great deal on the corrado that was for sale here on the tex. a perfect start.as always ,this will be built on a fairly low budget, and so far it looks pretty promising. lets see what those boosted boys think when i go by them as there 3rd gear is grinding itself to bits







. everybody is always talking about spending thousands of dollars to go fast on motor. hopefully i can prove them wrong. in the end i will be happy to hit the 10.50 spot but we all need to set our goals high right?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

Yea..in a tube framed rail chasis..


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (PowerDubs)*

come on its not that hard.what do you think the 800whp turbo guys are running ?daily drivers? of course its going to be a light car,that just goes with the teritory.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

no offense... but the answer is no
I've personally seen der renner (mk2vr turbo w/ AWD 6speed)
his best time was 9.98 which was only bested by a polo with the same setup


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

its all made up on the short end 
very few people have seen nate rameros raddo go 10.7s with 240 whp on tap. thats faster than most turbo cars out there, its all about putting the power down.useable power that is.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

hey by all means, prove me wrong! 
I'd love to see it.... matter of fact use my statement as your inspiration
I'll be one of the first to congratulate you here if its done


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_figuring i would need 340 whp to get me there. only motor that *should be able to do that would be the 3.2l r motor.

I think an all _aluminum_ 2.2 motor with a FSI or TFSI head will get you close to 250-275whp.The VVT on those motors is amazing.


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I think an all _aluminum_ 2.2 motor with a FSI or TFSI head will get you close to 250-275whp.The VVT on those motors is amazing.
 true but i think that will cost double. i can use the torque and throw a big tire on it to get it moving. i know the r motor is heavy but ill make up for it. its my wieght that im worried about..ok i might have to hire a driver


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

i remember seeing the first all motor 9 sec honda pass in the eriks racing civic, he had a little over 300 whp. now the k series are well over 400 whp, but that another story.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

9's thats one serious motor Joe. high revving, with alot of weight reduction(in the motor i mean). you making me want to trade my rods in for some Grodens Rods


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*

I knoooooo riiight!?!
I watched an awd gs-t talon with ALOT of work (inc. turbo upgrade, forged internals, and nitrous) barely break into 9s..... I repeat BARELY break into the 9sec club


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

this is like small block chevy vrs big block chevy, why do i need to rev it? i have displacement and tq. 8000 will be fine


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_I knoooooo riiight!?!
I watched an awd gs-t talon with ALOT of work (inc. turbo upgrade, forged internals, and nitrous) barely break into 9s..... I repeat BARELY break into the 9sec club

ive watched alot of cars run 9s on motor. look at the 1/8 mile times form the all motor cars to the turbo cars, they come on strong on the back end,even the awd cars, thats alot of lost time there


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

that was in the 1/4 not the 1/8th
quick edit.... jimmy sprays off the line to compensate for that difference you speak of. trust me it was quite the sight. with some work he can get his times down, I'm sure of it


_Modified by GermanRob at 10:50 PM 11-10-2008_


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

Can the 3.6L VR6 be borred any more?








Seriously, grab one of those, plug the injector holes, throw in some 12.5:1 pistons, equal length SRI, port the shizz out of the head, run standalone and toss it in a MK2 tube chassis.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*

Possible, yes. Easy, nope. When is anything we do 'easy'








To clarify this will be a pro style car, don't expect it to go get groceries like all our other cars. 
Some maths...
1700lbs/300hp 10.06
1800lbs/320hp 10.04
1900lbs/340hp 10.02
All we need to do is take Powerdub's R32 motor out of that power sucking drivetrain and get scootin.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (need_a_VR6)*

Ha.. I've driven my car in FWD mode.. thought somebody greased my tires.. no thanks!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (PowerDubs)*

This one will have some tire under it, I think.


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (PowerDubs)*

am i going to hear crap about this car too. hes only going fast becuase its gutted.... i think im down past rabbit weight already, i got another 200 lbs to take off the car. i can already pick the car up myself.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*

I am all for it. The 10.5's you mentioned are a given, getting into the singles will take some effort but you're good for it. I am more interested to see what kind of trans and final drive set up is in place when you get the numbers.
Anyone who thinks this would be anything but an all out race car, go home, and don't pull out the weight reduction car on this one. Joe did mention this will be light weight, and that goes with the territory. Just let this project be what it is, an attempt to put a car into the 9's. No matter how you break it down, or how he gets there, if the goal is achieved it will be a great one!

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_I think an all _aluminum_ 2.2 motor...

The crank alone isn't going to do it, so would you have the block sleeved, or have the bores re-coated?



_Modified by billyVR6 at 9:54 AM 11-11-2008_


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

Well, Bernd A. got around 270 WHP out of his 24v with just about everything done to it (3.1 high compression) and he runs 11s. And PowerDubs got 25x out of headwork and bolt ons, im sure if you built the bottom end of a 3.2 did the head and got an equal length SRI you would be around your power goal.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

I think it can be done, but setup has to come down to a science


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

anybody could put in number in a 1/4 calc, but the real question is it possible to get even 300+, or even 350+ horses out of a VW engine what would it take? a 3.2? a 3.6?
one reason why the Kseries is doing so well is simply because of how great their heads are. damn near 300CFM's from the factory


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

high compression 24v...preferably a 3.2
obviously standalone
maybe do a single 80mm TB on a long runners.....with a aluminum airbox pulling air from under the car....kinda like the honda guys do
i think you just gotta build the valvtrain to spin close to 9k....
i think it can be done....and if anyone can do it its joe.....shoot me a pm joe on what you got brewing in that mellon of yours...
p.s. ill be your tire pressure guy!!!


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## water&air (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Corradokcid)*

alcohol burning aircooled (3liter) on a rail chassis.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Well, Bernd A. got around 270 WHP out of his 24v with just about everything done to it (3.1 high compression) and he runs 11s.

I am pretty sure that BA's engine is just a little over 12:1, that's not high compression. He has mentioned to me that he likes keeping the car together, and keeping it consistent (higher psi/lower RPM launch). With the car just under 2100lbs race weight, and 60' times in the 1.7's, there has to be some ET hiding there, for sure. 
That guy has been holding it down All Motor, for so long. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
The crank alone isn't going to do it, so would you have the block sleeved, or have the bores re-coated?

Sleeved
to get that Nikasil coating back on there after a bore is $200US/cylinder.
No Thanks...I would go 84.5mm bore + sleeves and call it a day.I am actually talking with Darton right now:








I got the uber rare closed deck aluminum blocks now.Too bad there are too many window shoppers that just want to add to there picture collection.
Little bit OT with respect to the aluminum blocks.If there is one thing I learnt in 2008 is that I wont be sharing anymore of my "secrets".Told 2 guys what the blocks were from and they went and tried to source them direct.I am going to start doing a KMD,grinding off OEM part #'s


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
I am pretty sure that BA's engine is just a little over 12:1, that's not high compression. He has mentioned to me that he likes keeping the car together, and keeping it consistent (higher psi/lower RPM launch). With the car just under 2100lbs race weight, and 60' times in the 1.7's, there has to be some ET hiding there, for sure. 
That guy has been holding it down All Motor, for so long. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









I know daily drivers that have 12:5 compression, just shows your how much potential a 24v motor has.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*

Does anyone know if you can even go past 12.5:1 or 13:1 on a 24v? I thought i remember Chris Riehl saying that there wasnt much more room in there when he cooked up these pistons.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_...to get that Nikasil coating back on there after a bore is $200US/cylinder.

I know, but for not having the market for it I was banking that getting it sleeved would be in the same ballpark as far as cost. I pretty much chalked that block up to living it's life at stock bore, and any displacement would come from the crank. I really couldn't afford to do anything else but that, and most likely won't, as I am very confidant that I can achieve my goal/s without it.



















_Modified by billyVR6 at 3:58 PM 11-11-2008_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_I thought i remember Chris Riehl saying that there wasnt much more room in there when he cooked up these pistons.


You can get a lot more comp with the same dome cc with a bigger bore/stroke. 15:1 should be no problem.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (need_a_VR6)*

mkay so we're talking non streetable car..... that's a different story


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_mkay so we're talking non streetable car...

You got it, lot of fiberglass, carbon fiber and lexan in effect.

_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_...that's a different story

Maybe, but it there is still a great task at hand.
It's not going to get there just on compression and weight.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

I forsee alot of messing with gear ratio's and final drive... I really think that's gonna make a very very very noteworthy difference


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_I forsee alot of messing with gear ratio's and final drive... I really think that's gonna make a very very very noteworthy difference

yes i think it will take a little to figure out. im going to start with the 24.5s and work with the gearing.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_mkay so we're talking non streetable car..... that's a different story

since when has running 9's been streetabe all motor.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
since when has running 9's been streetabe all motor.

I know of quite a few V8s doing this around my area.... my roommates boss being one of them
quick edit... ha ha ha yea sorry, around here the norm is for street cars, nobody really has track only cars so I assumed. 
but incase your wondering here in south carolina we don't have a state inspection hence that trend. 
I keep forgetting we're one of a few with that privilege 


_Modified by GermanRob at 2:53 PM 11-11-2008_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_I know of quite a few V8s doing this around my area...

I hear you, but this topic has always been about a water cooled VW, and fourthchirpen hit the nail on the head with that comment. To put this into perspective, look at how many All Motor imports have gone into the 9's, that's a only handful of cars, none even being close to street legal. You could back it off a second, and say take a look at 10's, there are a bit more, but again same deal.


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

south carolina, i might be showing up there thursday at the house of hook, last orsca race, should be fun


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_south carolina, i might be showing up there thursday at the house of hook, last orsca race, should be fun

what u runnin? Our club has a GTG there this thurs. I'll look for you


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
I hear you, but this topic has always been about a water cooled VW, and fourthchirpen hit the nail on the head with that comment. To put this into perspective, look at how many All Motor imports have gone into the 9's, that's a only handful of cars, none even being close to street legal. You could back it off a second, and say take a look at 10's, there are a bit more, but again same deal.


I said sorry, jeeez have a







and calm down buddy


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

Calm down? I am not even worked up. I just just made a statement on exactly how big of deal it would be for this to happen. I guess I should have separated out the paragraph better to avoid the knot.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

lol, we'll never know now will we.... btw it was a joke, loosen up.
so what's the plan here? tube out a rabbit and run the highest flowing head on whatever displacement is the highest and rev the piss out of it?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

In the very first post he mentioned, it's a Corrado, with an R32 engine.
Then goes on to say he doesn't need or want to rev the piss out of it.
I will loosen up when you learn to read, sound like a plan?


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

ha ha ha much better! now we're cookin with grease!
why rado shell, and yea I read that, rabbit has more potential to be lightened or? Besides, nobody said anything about STICKING with a particular setup.


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_
yes i think it will take a little to figure out. im going to start with the 24.5s and work with the gearing. 

mkay back on topic... you gonna gear the tranny like most v8 track whores, runs outta space at the 1/4mile mark?


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_why rado shell? 

VR6's bolt into Corrados. And they are sexay.


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## Bryan127 (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*

of the top of my head...
wasn't there an N/A 3.0 VR in a stripped MKI chassis in an issue of "European Car" a few years back. I think it was in that readers rides section towards the back. That was running mid 10's IIRC.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Bryan127)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bryan127* »_of the top of my head...
wasn't there an N/A 3.0 VR in a stripped MKI chassis in an issue of "European Car" a few years back. I think it was in that readers rides section towards the back. That was running mid 10's IIRC.

Yes, Bernd Arndt's (also owns the 11 sec 24v corrado mentioned in this thread). Its a 3.1L 12v p&p BVH, 288* Techtonics cams, 14:1 CR and it puts down 228 whp.


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## Bryan127 (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*

Thought so...thanks


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Bryan127)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bryan127* »_of the top of my head...
wasn't there an N/A 3.0 VR in a stripped MKI chassis in an issue of "European Car" a few years back. I think it was in that readers rides section towards the back. That was running mid 10's IIRC.


there are no MID 10 sec all motor VR6's.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (subrosasix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *subrosasix* »_
there are no MID 10 sec all motor VR6's.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Bernds Corrado runs a 11.35, and the Rabbit runs a 11.54. Fastest N/A FWD VW is Nates 2.1L 20V Corrado @ 10.74.
But it seems like there is PLENTY more room for improvement for the VR6.


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (subrosasix)*

that rabbit ran mid 11s the corrado runs low 11s.rabbit used a built 12v and raddo uses a built 24v based off a 2.8l, i should be at 3.3l and a good flowing r32 head. im using a raddo for a few reasons,. i got a good deal on a semi finished chassis, i have a 1 piece glass front end and glass doors for it, also i think the raddo has the best aerodynamics at speed, when youre working to get everything out of it everylittle bit counts.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*

ok, way to go guys. look at all the k series hondas. 340 wheel roughly and funning 9s all motor. in a pro car. thats what this is. i think its doable. heck i dynoed 266 wheel with bolt ons with my R32 poweed car. the only thing to figure out is gearing. every muscle car guy knows thats what makes you go fast, and its the same for any drag race specific car. you make that power, and figure out how to gear it properly, it will run that number. look at nates corrado. didnt that car runs 10s? now add more power and see where it goes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_the only thing to figure out is gearing.

People do not want to spend on the gearing...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
People do not want to spend on the gearing...









It's hard to know what to spend it on until you at least dyno the motor. Might as well start out with stock gear sets and work from there. It'll get some decent ET even without 'perfect' ratios.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (need_a_VR6)*

Pretty true, all the pieces are in place, the chassis, engine, trans, wheels, slicks, etc., etc. Next step is get it up and running and re-group after the dust settles.

_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_1 piece glass front end.

It seems like it was 10 years ago when we went and picked all that up.
I am just glad to see all that finally getting put to good use. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_that rabbit ran mid 11s the corrado runs low 11s.rabbit used a built 12v and raddo uses a built 24v based off a 2.8l, i should be at 3.3l and a good flowing r32 head. im using a raddo for a few reasons,. i got a good deal on a semi finished chassis, i have a 1 piece glass front end and glass doors for it, also i think the raddo has the best aerodynamics at speed, when youre working to get everything out of it everylittle bit counts.

heeeyyy now that makes sense to me
u boring, stroking, or a combination?


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
People do not want to spend on the gearing...









can't say I blame them to be honest.... but it is a good place to drop some time on his 1/4 passes


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_
can't say I blame them to be honest.... but it is a good place to drop some time on his 1/4 passes

You are lucky you have the option to CHOOSE your gearing.For us ,a gear kit for the 01E Gearbox is in excess of 10,000US....


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
You are lucky you have the option to CHOOSE your gearing.For us ,a gear kit for the 01E Gearbox is in excess of 10,000US....

damn that's enuf to BUY a 10sec muscle car


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_
heeeyyy now that makes sense to me
u boring, stroking, or a combination?

iwas thinking of keeping it simple. r32 block 85mm bore


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_
iwas thinking of keeping it simple. r32 block 85mm bore

Are you willing to change that plan if you can't succeed in your goals, or is the goal to do it on that setup? any idea if your gonna use baffles in the pan or a crank scraper to minimize resistance on the crank? Personally I would, the advantages have been proven in hard accelerating turns, I'd assume the concept would carry over for hard acceleration.... esp. this kind of hard lol


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

I say leave the thing stock bore, no reason to make it much bigger. Just concentrate on the top end. 
The scraper would work on any crank, doesn't matter if the oil is sloshing to the side or not at all.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_
Are you willing to change that plan if you can't succeed in your goals, or is the goal to do it on that setup? any idea if your gonna use baffles in the pan or a crank scraper to minimize resistance on the crank? Personally I would, the advantages have been proven in hard accelerating turns, I'd assume the concept would carry over for hard acceleration.... esp. this kind of hard lol

joe knows exactly what he is doing let him build. If it doesn't crack 9's w/e it will still be of the fastest out there hands down.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
joe knows exactly what he is doing let him build. If it doesn't crack 9's w/e it will still be of the fastest out there hands down.


hey, some of us haven't been doing this as long as you.... lemmie pick the man's brain


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

You can't pick at it, he might forget something important.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (need_a_VR6)*


----------



## vdubmike2 (Sep 21, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*

have you put any thought into ITB's?


----------



## JVita08 (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (vdubmike2)*

umm good luck with this but dont see it happening. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (JVita08)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JVita08* »_umm good luck with this but dont see it happening. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Why not?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Why not? 


9's are a feat. I dont blame him for being skeptical But I think we all will have to sit and watch how everything pans out. I think once he solves this small cam dilemma everything will fall into place.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*

Once this is done we'll just have to run 10's in a street car to quiet the haters.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*

4chirps, I hear you, but I was looking for some sort of backbone to his statement. I remember a day when it was common for people to say 13's and 12's couldn't be done by street cars, and look what happened.










_Modified by billyVR6 at 3:13 PM 11-14-2008_


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

Its all about having the right attitude, and bringing a positive energy to these types of threads.
And i dont see why no one has done regrinds yet for a 24v







no one wants to pony up the cash for a set of billet cams only to have them reground.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_And i dont see why no one has done regrinds yet for a 24v







no one wants to pony up the cash for a set of billet cams only to have them reground.

The cams are assembled, not cast/billet one piece.
That's a no go on the re-grind.


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

Aftermarket cams are billet arent they?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*

So you are saying buy a set of Schricks, and then sending them out to a place like Delta?
I had thought about doing just that for my stuff, but then I would be in the hole $2k just for cams, that's a tough one. I think the best bet is see what Cat has up their sleeve. They are set to release FSI cams, and I can't see them not offering 24v cams as well. They are usually good for a few different profiles.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 5:17 PM 11-14-2008_


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

Yeah it gets spendy, the cheapest aftermarket 24v cams are Techtonics for 800. Then a custom regrind really makes it expensive. I think i remember someone saying that Cat and Bildon didnt want to make any, but everyone has their price.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Yeah it gets spendy, the cheapest aftermarket 24v cams are Techtonics for 800. Then a custom regrind really makes it expensive. I think i remember someone saying that Cat and Bildon didnt want to make any, but everyone has their price.

it's not just cams, solid lifters. if your gona make biggers cams, your going to need solid lifters for that extra safety net.
bildon told me they can do it no problems. That cat was coming out with cams in the beginning of this year. If all goes well with me getting a full time job finally then I will probably go further with getting my schricks regrinded to a bigger lift/duration but as of right now it's not going to happen. Iam tired of building i just want to crack some numbers.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
bildon told me they can do it no problems.

Do not count your lucky stars on that.


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

ha ha ha... where's the token rich guy when you need him?


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

He's already running a 500whp boosted R32 somewhere, or a 9 second N/A honda 4cyl







.
There's no love for N/A VWs







.


----------



## TDIVentoDave (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (GermanRob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GermanRob* »_why rado shell, and yea I read that, rabbit has more potential to be lightened or? Besides, nobody said anything about STICKING with a particular setup.

The Corrado will get down the track easier.
According to Bernd, it takes much less effort to get the Rado to go in a straight line than the Rabbit. Think of the effort it takes just to keep the car from moving side-to-side and focus that energy forward. Those of you that have drag raced a high HP rabbit know what I am talking about. It is a work out...
I can totally see 9's happening from a NA vw motor.
I wish we could get Larry Widmer (endyn) to design us an aftermarket head that flows like a Honda head. Those of you not familiar with his work, I highly reccomend checking out: 
http://theoldone.com/



_Modified by TDIVentoDave at 10:35 PM 11-16-2008_


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

Catcams should have some 3.2 24v grinds in Feb of 09. Talking with Joe about his cam needs.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_Catcams should have some 3.2 24v grinds in Feb of 09. Talking with Joe about his cam needs.


ive heard that before last year.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_

ive heard that before last year.

From me? 

I deal direct with Catcams and was told this last week via email.
IM Replied.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_
From me? 

I deal direct with Catcams and was told this last week via email.
IM Replied.

i have no problem with you. but Ive had companies promise the same exact things privately. Thats all iam stating but like I said before cams are what make or break this whole dream of a 9sec vw I hope to see this all come out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*

I can only relay what the mfg has told me. I don't even like to mention new products until they are on the shelf in my warehouse and ready to ship.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_I can only relay what the mfg has told me.


I've spoken with both Ken and Ludo probably 30 times over the 1.5 years. They just keep making excuses and pushing back the dates like many other shops on many other projects.
At this point I'll believe larger cams when I see them in my hands.
I do know that an unnamed company dyno tested a set of 24v regrinds in early September but has yet to release results or any info for that matter.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

considering cat cams didnt do to well with the 12v i am not going to trust them in a R32 engine


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (PowerDubs)*

HPA?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
HPA?











Nope.. HPA wouldn't send cams to be tested in NJ by a private guy.. they would just test them local.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

I've spoken with both Ken and Ludo probably 30 times over the 1.5 years. They just keep making excuses and pushing back the dates like many other shops on many other projects.
At this point I'll believe larger cams when I see them in my hands.
I do know that an unnamed company dyno tested a set of 24v regrinds in early September but has yet to release results or any info for that matter.


Ludo was who told me the cams would be out in jan or feb of 09 as well.


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_
Ludo was who told me the cams would be out in jan or feb of 09 as well.


two more weeks...


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## Prospec Tuner (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_
iwas thinking of keeping it simple. r32 block 85mm bore

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif would luv to see this set up complete
hope the R works good for u


----------



## KransDubber (Apr 13, 2008)

I say modify an older bug..shoehorn a 
(N/A)20v or (N/A)12v VR and run big drag radials to get better launches and after a diet on the older bug the gearing shouldnt be a problem.
P.S. Keep it rear wheel drive http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by KransDubber at 7:42 AM 11-29-2008_


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: (KransDubber)*

the whole challenge is running the number with a fwd car. running 9s in a rwd car is way to easy. ive changed my goal lol as long as my car is always 1 car ahead of palumbo that will be good enuff


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (race-shop joe)*

yea man. i got my name knocked down a peg on that list so i have to bring it back up again!!! i am still the fastest street car. now i have to take ivans radial record too







its all in good fun guys. the competition will be great. it sucks having a car 1 second faster then everyone thats for damn sure. not to mention, now we can all push each other to go even faster! about time all motor water cooled cars are running the numbers they do now.


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## Super 180s (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

Why not just get a W12 engine out of the Phaeton and start with that?


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re:*

Th NE crew is good for this, I think. As long as I've been here you guys have done everything you've said.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Super 180s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Super 180s* »_Why not just get a W12 engine out of the Phaeton and start with that?

Cost for one, complexity, and he wants FWD.


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## GT42R32deepblue (Feb 29, 2008)

yeah... if u put a honda motor in a vw


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (Super 180s)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Super 180s* »_Why not just get a W12 engine out of the Phaeton and start with that?

thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard


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## lil8v (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (XXX008XXX)*

i believe 10s are possible now a high 9 eh maybe but more power to you in ur quest


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## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Can the 3.6L VR6 be borred any more?








Seriously, grab one of those, plug the injector holes, throw in some 12.5:1 pistons, equal length SRI, port the shizz out of the head, run standalone and toss it in a MK2 tube chassis.

3.6l stock compression is 12.0 (i think the early 3.6 were 12.5), i dont think another .5 CR would b considered high compression. I do agree, that would seemingly be the optimal choice, if i remeber correctly weighs about the same as the 3.2, makes more power, forged steel crank, forged aluminum pistons. Of course to buy it new is 17k....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (V.R.Lvr)*

If anyone has a cheap 3.6 to donate to the cause, we're all ears.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (need_a_VR6)*

I'll have to get my mom to pick up a toureg and it'll mysteriously get stolen and turn up burned in the woods w/o engine. Then proceed to leave a bunch of eastside stickers all around it.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (root beer)*

Have there been any new ideas/ plans for the build Joe? Got any pics of the chassis?


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## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_I'll have to get my mom to pick up a toureg and it'll mysteriously get stolen and turn up burned in the woods w/o engine. Then proceed to leave a bunch of eastside stickers all around it.
















Thats how a lot of MKII VR swaps were done when the MKIII came out, allegedly of course.


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## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Got any pics of the chassis?


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (skydaman)*

Ahhhh that shell


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*

Nice, I'm glad to see someone is stepping up to build a serious all motor car. I can't wait to see this thing built and going down the track. I hope you can get it done and get plenty of track time, good luck with everything


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Ahhhh that shell









The hatch on that car was reason enough to pick it up.


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## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Yeah its a damn nice car lot of time and money in it. Had I got a truck in time I would have picked it up and put my engine in that rather then the shell I have now. But of course I got my shell for $100 so I can't complain...


----------



## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (skydaman)*

what class do you plan on running in joe??has that chassis been scaled without the motor??? you could prolly shave 50 pounds just cutting some inside panels out .... oh man i wish i still lived in jersey


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## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Corradokcid)*

im actually not worried about what class to race right now, i would like to just build a fast car. i have plenty of crap to cut out of the car still. it looks so sad in those pics. it will have a diffrent front end (not the snow plow edition) and doors.i would love to get all the undercoat off the bottom but might have to wait.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_(not the snow plow edition)

Yes, thank god! Those front ends make cars look like choo choo trains.


----------



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (race-shop joe)*

Joe what kind of fueling are you talking about running? Meth would always be a fun choice. Allows much higher compression and would give you a bigger ceiling to make more power.
I could see a 20/20 in the 250-300whp range with meth, solid lifter, and massive cams.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_I could see a 20/20 in the 250-300whp range with meth, solid lifter, and massive cams.

There are a few of those floating around, and they're not even close to having the ET, or the power needed to achieve this goal.


----------



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
There are a few of those floating around, and they're not even close to having the ET, or the power needed to achieve this goal.

Not even that much would put a bulimic mk1 into the high 9's?
edit: After plugging in some rough numbers on a 1/4 calc, a 2000 lb car would need 400whp to run 9.99. NA, on any motor with 6 or fewer slugs is going to be near impossible without the help of nitrous.
Now, on a 1600 lb car, like Nate's Corrado, you would only need around 325whp to break 9.99, which could be very possible on meth.


_Modified by VWn00b at 7:11 PM 12-10-2008_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

The cars I have been following are all race prepped A1 Golf Chassis.

_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Now, on a 1600 lb car, like Nate's Corrado, you would only need around 325whp to break 9.99, which could be very possible on meth.

Sure, Nate's car was light, and did have a few things to improve the build.
An extra 85whp from doing so?? That is a lot no matter what way you look at it!
We all know the deal with that engine, and with all things considered, it was a *great* build. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## illahee (Feb 26, 2005)

Good luck with the all-motor build m8. 
Will you be running ITB's?
Some Jenvey 52/55mm's maybe?
An idea I've always wanted to try out was running ITB's w/megasquirt and having a second bank of smaller injectors that only run at wide open throttle. Then add another nos nozzle for each runner...lol that'd be some hard-core engine plumbing






















How about jacking up the compression (like 14 or 15) and running an extreme toluene mixture? Like half and half with 92 octane? I'm pretty sure that's well above a 100 octane rating. (too lazy to do the math now. I know some streeters run 70/30 gas/toluene on pretty stock motors)
Race cars in the eighties were pretty ****ing cool. Ran on pretty much 90% toluene and made 1000hp per liter (turbocharged of course with something like a 15:1 compression) with just little 1.5 liter motors. 
Not sure how any toluene mixtures would comply with whatever sub-set of race rules, et cetera. 
Also, another idea that I'd like to try someday to squeeze a few extra ponies would be to create a chiller (evap/cooler - essentially an A/C system) for the fuel tank. Basically buy a 12V hermetically sealed compressor, build a system, and cool down your fuel tank. (Phase-change systems are foolishly easy compared to internal combustion systems)
"The flash point of gasoline is about -97F, meaning that it will still burn at 97 degrees below zero" - Some website. So you could probably cool your fuel down tremendously. Methinks that would equal a lot more bang when it comes to the atomization of fuel. 
Balancing obviously is extremely important. I'd buy a scale and a stand to do the rods myself if you don't have the equipment. If you search for an hour or so you can find a 500g x .01 accuracy scale for less than a several hundred dollars. And I'm just a bit ocd, but if I was going to build a motor I'd balance them until they all ****ing matched perfectly. (or until you can afford an analytical scale, LOL)
Small things will help make huge differences here as well. Not sure if the R32 motor has a windage-tray or oil baffle but that would make a world of difference at high-rpm's.
And I know this is a budget build, but if you could afford it, I'd cryo-treat your block, head, crank, pistons, cams, valves, basically any moving metal part for ****s and giggles as well.
Seriously man, Good Luck!!! I'm excited to watch the progress of your build, and pictures are always such excellent eye candy. Can't wait to see how things unfold,
-Illahee


----------



## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: (illahee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *illahee* »_Good luck with the all-motor build m8. 
Will you be running ITB's?
Some Jenvey 52/55mm's maybe?
An idea I've always wanted to try out was running ITB's w/megasquirt and having a second bank of smaller injectors that only run at wide open throttle. Then add another nos nozzle for each runner...lol that'd be some hard-core engine plumbing






















_Why? Just run proper sized injectors. For a race car, it's all throttle anyways._
How about jacking up the compression (like 14 or 15) and running an extreme toluene mixture? Like half and half with 92 octane? I'm pretty sure that's well above a 100 octane rating. (too lazy to do the math now. I know some streeters run 70/30 gas/toluene on pretty stock motors)
Race cars in the eighties were pretty ****ing cool. Ran on pretty much 90% toluene and made 1000hp per liter (turbocharged of course with something like a 15:1 compression) with just little 1.5 liter motors. 
_What?_
Not sure how any toluene mixtures would comply with whatever sub-set of race rules, et cetera. 
_Why would you run paint thinner when you can run premium blended leaded race fuels?_
Also, another idea that I'd like to try someday to squeeze a few extra ponies would be to create a chiller (evap/cooler - essentially an A/C system) for the fuel tank. Basically buy a 12V hermetically sealed compressor, build a system, and cool down your fuel tank. (Phase-change systems are foolishly easy compared to internal combustion systems)
"The flash point of gasoline is about -97F, meaning that it will still burn at 97 degrees below zero" - Some website. So you could probably cool your fuel down tremendously. Methinks that would equal a lot more bang when it comes to the atomization of fuel. 
_ANY gain you make from cooling your fuel would instantly be lost on running the compressor, either electrically through the alternator or off the crank. Hence the law of conservation of energy. Wou would make a larger gain by going to the track on a day when the DA was 300ft lower _
Balancing obviously is extremely important. I'd buy a scale and a stand to do the rods myself if you don't have the equipment. If you search for an hour or so you can find a 500g x .01 accuracy scale for less than a several hundred dollars. And I'm just a bit ocd, but if I was going to build a motor I'd balance them until they all ****ing matched perfectly. (or until you can afford an analytical scale, LOL)
_Dynamic balancing is worth more to spend money on then a scale. Once you balance the rods/pistons together, you still need to have it spun up and balanced. Just drop it off at the machine shop or a shop with the neccesary equipment_
Small things will help make huge differences here as well. Not sure if the R32 motor has a windage-tray or oil baffle but that would make a world of difference at high-rpm's.
And I know this is a budget build, but if you could afford it, I'd cryo-treat your block, head, crank, pistons, cams, valves, basically any moving metal part for ****s and giggles as well.

Seriously man, Good Luck!!! I'm excited to watch the progress of your build, and pictures are always such excellent eye candy. Can't wait to see how things unfold,
-Illahee

A little confused...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_
A little confused...

I passed a little confused right after the line about the nitrous.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

ok ok ok, i will show you where to hide the bottle


----------



## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

im hoping to get the car in the 1700-1800 lb range. the heaviest part is the boat anchor r 32 motor, i still think it will make way more power than any 4cyl, and ill take that torque that goes along with it. i need an alumn r 32 block with no water jackets.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (race-shop joe)*

No water jackets....alcohol's cheaper anyway.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (root beer)*

damn all this alum block talk making me think of "other" 6cylinder swaps that are just as bad ass as a R32 swap. even less money too. 2 come to mine right away.


----------



## illahee (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Sorry about the ****ty confusing post. I had lost the first and it was a re-type and I was in a hurry to get to work...so yeah. my apologies.

_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_
A little confused...
"Why? Just run proper sized injectors. For a race car, it's all throttle anyways."


Well, injectors are designed to deliver fuel over an entire range. So if you ran massive over-sized injectors you'd have trouble with idling right? With a second bank you could run "normal" sized injectors for your application, and have a second set for just a few hundred cc's at WOT anyway. Sounds cool to me. And if this just sounds like crap, then you can take it from a tex "veteran":

_Quote, originally posted by *vwhammer1* »_
One more thing that I think is seriously overlooked is injector placement.
It has been proven that injectors closer to the intake valve is good for low rpm power and injectors placed further out in the intake, Sometimes outside of the throttle body opening, is better for high rpm power.
So why not do both, which is what some motorcycle manufactures are now doing.
This is generally very possible with most aftermarket EFI systems.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3472422 



_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_
Why would you run paint thinner when you can run premium blended leaded race fuels?



Sorry, forgot it was a straight race-car and ya'll were goin with meth. I was thinking about gasoline. And a 50/50 mix would probably be cheaper than race-fuel...and some-what comprable. budget car right? lol.















....I'd actually like to build an inline system someday in a street car that would utilize a second reservoir of straight toluene/xylene so you could automatically mix it on the fly...road trips and such, i'm a real diy kinda guy...hah. 

_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_
ANY gain you make from cooling your fuel would instantly be lost on running the compressor, either electrically through the alternator or off the crank. Hence the law of conservation of energy. Wou would make a larger gain by going to the track on a day when the DA was 300ft lower 


Well, to be blatant, why the hell would you ever think of running it off of the alternator or crank??? Would you really assume I'm that much of a dumb-ass?? 
How about just in the back of the car with an extra 12V battery. Or even without the battery and just a bat charger? Just leave it plugged in an hour or so before you'll be up for a run, and you could have fuel in the -50F range.... I know it'd be a lot of work, but if you were straight dragging with the car, and going all motor trying to squeeze that extra inch out... Too lazy to look up the equations and do the math, but please tell me cooling the fuel 100 degrees Fahrenheit would make a statistically significant difference in power. (Even with the added 50lbs or so of chiller)
Too take it even further, if you didn't want to build a heavy mobile chiller system....I could imagine designing some kind of evaporator that you could run through your fuel reservoir and then just purge CO2 or some other gas through... Make sure to have a pump inside circulating the fuel as it cools, but one could probably make significant drops of fuel temperature in mere minutes prepping for a race. 

_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_
Dynamic balancing is worth more to spend money on then a scale. Once you balance the rods/pistons together, you still need to have it spun up and balanced. Just drop it off at the machine shop or a shop with the neccesary equipment


Well yeah...sorry I wasn't really clear on that one. Was assuming taking crank for complete balancing by professionals was assumed. For a budget setup though, I was envisioning spending 300-500 on tools (scales and a stand) and how ever many man hours it would take to get them perfectly balanced yourself would be cheaper than the machine shop right?
Cause if you're trying to get the friggin most out of your parts they have to be perfect right? And how much would it cost to get a professional to get your rods and pistons balanced perfectly...?? I don't know, never had machine work done before...not sure what range of variation is standard? To me it wouldn't be ok until it was perfect. I think I'd care more about getting my parts perfect than the average machinist...but if you know a shop??? et cetera. (God I sound super arrogrant and stupid there...lol please don't flame me on that one. I'm tired and need sleep...just like to do things myself...like i said earlier, lol.)
Sorry about the rant. Hopefully I've clarified myself. Often I have good ideas but am incredibly scatter brained with them...bit eccentric I guess. So yeah...sorry about the clarification issues and ramblings, et cetera.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (illahee)*

I honestly tried to read that post, but about halfway I stopped.


----------



## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I got about 1/3 the way through and started drooling. I then tried to bite my ear and scratch my elbow.
Back on topic, I want to see it happen. Anything I can donate towards the cause?


----------



## NVmyVW (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Good to see someone bought Art's car


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (NVmyVW)*

That post just brought my ADD to a whole new elevated level. Interesting ideas though, doesnt hurt to throw around ideas when you are trying to build a 9 sec FWD NA VW.


----------



## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Does anyone know if you can even go past 12.5:1 or 13:1 on a 24v? I thought i remember Chris Riehl saying that there wasnt much more room in there when he cooked up these pistons.
























dang


----------



## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (-skidmarks-)*

deff seems possible, wasnt nate runnin 10s with his all motor 8v?


----------



## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (-skidmarks-)*

that was with a 20v 4 cyl. i think he would have went right in the 9s with that raddo smart car http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*

ahhhh, i remember now. he painted the car silver and went all motor 2.0/20.
thats some good stuff http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i look forward to your 9sec all motor joe http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

It is kinda disheartening when Honda guys run deep 9's - high 8's with a 4cyl, and we can't do it without a 6







.


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_It is kinda disheartening when Honda guys run deep 9's - high 8's with a 4cyl, and we can't do it without a 6







.

No its not disheartening... they are usually lighter, rev higher, heads flow better, and have a bigger market engineering products for them. I don't really care what others are doing I just want to have fun and meet my personal goals. 
When you play basketball do you compare yourself to Michael Jordan? No, you just have fun playing on your court...


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Understandable, but if you're playing against Michael Jordan, and you're wearing construction boots...you'd better be a LOT better than he is, or it just looks funny. I applaud the guys who are giving it a shot though, no matter what engine choice, because that's the sort of thing that leads to the proper development of high HP NA engines.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_It is kinda disheartening when Honda guys run deep 9's - high 8's with a 4cyl, and we can't do it without a 6







.

I wouldn’t say that we can't do it without a six cylinder. It's just that nobody trying, or has the desire, to do it with a four. Nate's 20v was well on his way to getting there when the decision was made to change it up and go boost.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
It's just that nobody trying, or has the desire, to do it


PERIOD. its not just vw's. there are way better motors out there. toyotas, nissan, etc. its just that people aren't trying and the people who do try something aren't even pushing the envelop like all these honda people because they dont know how to.


----------



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*

For a VW to rival Honda NA times it's going to take alot of money, R&D and learning from mistakes and engine failures. The biggest thing, obviously, is making something close to what Honda's do on power. K-series motors make easily in the high 300whp range with the right stuff.
Most people look at that and say, "NA? You got to be crazy. Just boost it and your done"
I personally would love to take my 16vABA build into the drag scene when my car no longer becomes daily driveable. Only changes that would need to be made would be cams, compression, retune on race gas. Even then, it would still be hard to compete at Honda levels.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_the people who do try something aren't even pushing the envelop like all these honda people because they dont know how to.

Who are these people?


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Who are these people?

I wasn't talking about anybody specifically. if you go search through other communities youll see how people have a good motor and because the consensus believes they can't do it then most people dont even try. Or if they do they put together good factory builds and dont push the limit on their already good motor.
but hey product support is the key driver in all this if there are no products or even demand then people wont make.


_Modified by fourthchirpin at 11:18 PM 12-29-2008_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*

I hear ya, I was just curious to see if you knew of a car with potential that came up short. There are those pushing the envelope, just not here in the states right now. Elton Scullard over in South Africa is chipping away at it. I always wanted to see what would happen if those in PR built a serious all motor car, on the same build level as their RWD boost cars.
Anyway, with this Honda business...
Honda does cast a great shadow, and we are in it, but people need to compare build vs. build. People like Anthony and Nate had very budget minded set ups, nowhere near the level that most of the competition is at these days. Support, money invested, parts, and chassis set up.
There is a lot of "K this and K that" being dropped in the forums lately. It's a great engine, but what I mentioned above still applies. I think there are a few VW's that are right in there when stacked against your typical street driven, bolt on, engine management K & B Series car at the track. The whole 6 vs. 4, yeah, but who cares when you just want to win the damn race!
This type-cast problem comes up when you get compared those dominating the street classes, and then saying we can't.
If people think those are real street cars...



















_Modified by billyVR6 at 11:14 AM 12-30-2008_


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_There is a lot of "K this and K that" being dropped in the forums lately. It's a great engine, but what I mentioned above still applies. I think there are a few VW's that are right in there when stacked against your typical street driven, bolt on, engine management K & B Series car at the track. The whole 6 vs. 4, yeah, but who cares when you just want to win the damn race!
This type-cast problem comes up when you get compared those dominating the street classes, and then saying we can't.
If people think those are real street cars...

















Looking on H-T, k20.org, etc.. it looks like a few of the VR's are holding their own against the street K cars on radials. Especially when you start looking at the non swap cars or cars of similar weight and mods.


----------



## vw1320 (Jul 11, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*

Look at the Nissan sr20ve. 200whp is easy and there are finally some tranny options out there for those guys. There cars aren't as light as they could be but I am sure they can get close. I would imagine you could make good power with a Toyota 3sgte as well. Not sure about some of the newer Toyota motors. Unfortunately there aren't many platforms that combine the lightweight with the parts and power potential of a Honda. That doesn't mean there can't be. Look at the H22 - it was the redheaded stepchild of the Honda world not that long ago. With the work of a couple people its now one of the most popular motors out there. 
Having said this I don't think we can worry too much what other makes are doing. I just want to see some more quick all motor vw's next year.


----------



## GT42R32deepblue (Feb 29, 2008)

just throwing this out there for the more experienced vr guys... or whoever wants to chime in... what do u guys think a mk3 r32 swap will run with high compression, fully built.. standalone.. the whole 9 yards.. 6 speed o2m and all... i know palumbos car ran 12.006 ... not talking about his.. cause i been in it and the dam thing moves out..


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (GT42R32deepblue)*

A well put together R32 motor with big compression, some real cams, real tuning, etc into a well prepped 'street class legal' chassis should run high 10s.
I would do that, but I'm poor.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (vw1320)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw1320* »_Having said this I don't think we can worry too much what other makes are doing.

So true. Funny, I honestly think it's the people who don't race at all that worry more about it than those who actually show up on race day.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (vw1320)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw1320* »_Look at the Nissan sr20ve. 200whp is easy and there are finally some tranny options out there for those guys. There cars aren't as light as they could be but I am sure they can get close. I would imagine you could make good power with a Toyota 3sgte as well. Not sure about some of the newer Toyota motors. Unfortunately there aren't many platforms that combine the lightweight with the parts and power potential of a Honda. That doesn't mean there can't be. Look at the H22 - it was the redheaded stepchild of the Honda world not that long ago. With the work of a couple people its now one of the most popular motors out there. 
Having said this I don't think we can worry too much what other makes are doing. I just want to see some more quick all motor vw's next year.










exactly that motor is a way better factory motor then any b-series made. the sr16ve N1 makes 197hp and it's a 1.6! *123hp per liter from the factory.
* other then that their all VE heads flow over 270CFM stock. thats not much off from the new Kseries motors and yet SR20/16 VE motors are from 97-98'
it's funny how everybody goes crazy over the K-series yet it's basically an H-series motor upgraded.the kseries head is really the only "special" 
theres also a toyota motor 4cylinder that makes 200whp from just switching to a tune-able computer.
hell I know vw has a sweet 4cylinder setup that doesn't involve the 20v head but Ill let the guru's elaborate on this.
all this talk really makes me want to finish my science project to help others push the envelop as ways I can't push. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (GT42R32deepblue)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT42R32deepblue* »_just throwing this out there for the more experienced vr guys... or whoever wants to chime in... what do u guys think a mk3 r32 swap will run with high compression, fully built.. standalone.. the whole 9 yards.. 6 speed o2m and all... i know palumbos car ran 12.006 ... not talking about his.. cause i been in it and the dam thing moves out..

we can race and see


----------



## GT42R32deepblue (Feb 29, 2008)

haha.. i hope so.. i wanna see it... i wanna let him use my standalone but than my newly made harness will be all chewed up.. he needs a standalone then where ready to go.. funds are low for everyone right now.. sux cause its only one more thing to finish ..


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

It's actually super refreshing to see a discussion about other makes of motor that doesn't involve the typical "anything but VW SUCKS!" attitudes so prevalent around the VW scene. I'd throw my hat into the NA pool, but I'm a lowly 1.8 8v...and I can't handle an over-cammed street car now that the nearest track is 2 hours away







.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

This forum is one of reality, we all know how far behind we are.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_...we all know how far behind we are.

Yep, I am still working on a *2005 NHRA Street Stock* car.


----------



## 75injectedSB (Feb 6, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_This forum is one of reality, we all know how far behind we are. 

So we just keep moving forward and making it happen. Its hard to do anything in the VW community when all the prevalent tuners are so tight lipped about their progress forward. I think we can take from the other crowds as well, they had to break the same barriers that we have to. Knowledge is power, the same principles apply to all internal combustion engines, no matter if it is branded with a H or VW... Happy New Years every one...


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (race-shop joe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *race-shop joe* »_what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? 

If it can be done, you and Paul would be the ones to pull it off, Joe! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? ([email protected])*

Thats it i am shooting for 9s in street trim now


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (XXX008XXX)*

Try running 11's first or you'll have 12v's passing you next season.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (need_a_VR6)*

that .007 is a b*tch!


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

i am scratching my head with my middle finger right now...


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (XXX008XXX)*

Awesome.








Hey, you had the car to the track three times.
I think we all know where this car is going next season. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ScientificRabbit (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: what does everyone think of a 9 sec all motor vw? can it be done?? (billyVR6)*

I like the challenge posed in the title "9 sec all motor vw"
I think you'll need to bring something new to the table to accomplish your goal.
so you need a bit more than 320 whp as stated earlier in the post.
I've never seen a vr6 12v NA make more than 250whp. (Bildon motor sports had a project a few years ago to get there and didn't) Think the vr6 12v is not going to get you there.
220 crank HP out of a super vee 1.6 8v has been done. Most likely not going to get any better than that, after many years of development and lost of money.
It seems to me that our vw motors have two major issues - poor head flow (cfm), poor combustion efficiencies.
Solution to these would like something like:
You'll need in the high 200's low 300's CFM to get the power you need.
Also a combustion chamber that is designed to run 11:1 on street gas.
Cheers
ny_fam


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (vw1320)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw1320* »_Look at the Nissan sr20ve. 200whp is easy and there are finally some tranny options out there for those guys. There cars aren't as light as they could be but I am sure they can get close. I would imagine you could make good power with a Toyota 3sgte as well. Not sure about some of the newer Toyota motors. Unfortunately there aren't many platforms that combine the lightweight with the parts and power potential of a Honda. That doesn't mean there can't be. Look at the H22 - it was the redheaded stepchild of the Honda world not that long ago. With the work of a couple people its now one of the most popular motors out there. 
Having said this I don't think we can worry too much what other makes are doing. I just want to see some more quick all motor vw's next year.

















if u know anybody I have a whole slue of sr16ve and sr20ve parts.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_








if u know anybody I have a whole slue of sr16ve and sr20ve parts.

we can match that to a VW bottom and and no one would ever know


----------



## TDIVentoDave (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
we can match that to a VW bottom and and no one would ever know









Funny you mention that...
I have taken headgaskets from both a 4g63 (from an evo 8) and a b18c to a vw bottom end just to see if anything would line up. No such luck


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (TDIVentoDave)*

*BLING BLING*


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*

C.R?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (RipCity Euros)*

I thought you were going to buy high comp pistons.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

14:1


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_14:1

So your running good gas...


----------



## croniccorrado (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (skydaman)*

so i guess its no longer a street car?


_Modified by croniccorrado at 5:46 PM 1-16-2009_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (croniccorrado)*

Looks like Palumbo's Exxon got an E85 pump.










_Modified by billyVR6 at 8:36 PM 1-16-2009_


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*

yes its a street car and we dont sell gas anymore!!! Palumbo's Auto Repair my friend. it will be ran on pump gas as well as race gas. i figure, for the amount i drive it what is the difference. not too far off from a turbo car. in the motec i have switchable maps on the fly, so if i need some pump gas somewhere, i will have to do my thing, unless more E85 pumps pop up. thats what i am really hoping for. always thinking ahead







. i also ordered my supertech valvetrain. be afraid... can we say 1231343123542534 RPM???


----------



## race-shop joe (Apr 6, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*

all that to go 11.99 huh. i love it


----------



## THE GOLF (Aug 26, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (race-shop joe)*

i dont think its about the power its about how we put the power down. if you look at Prof. Nates specs he was only making about 250hp its his total package. I do think how ever to get an all motor vw into the 10s forget the 9 is quiet an achievment. How do you guy over there do with sponsers are they easy to come by, cause i think its a great help. Looking at the Honda's Jeremy Lookofsky fastest N/a car inthe world has full backing, the manufacturers do RND for his car. VW is just not interested in Drag Racing.
To get back to the point of a 9sec all motor car yes it is possible, But we need to get back into the 10s first. BABY STEP GUYS


----------



## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (THE GOLF)*

i have a feeling E-Town is gonna have alot of fast cars this year.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (THE GOLF)*


_Quote, originally posted by *THE GOLF* »_ How do you guy over there do with sponsers are they easy to come by,

whats this word sponser? i have never seen it before.


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_whats this word sponser? i have never seen it before.

















Sponsored by VISA/MASTERCARD


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (skydaman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skydaman* »_

Sponsored by VISA/MASTERCARD









haha maybe you, but my car was paid for before it was even together







i was lucky enough to learn not to build a car on a credit card. thats probably why it takes me so long to get things done


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
haha maybe you, but my car was paid for before it was even together







i was lucky enough to learn not to build a car on a credit card. thats probably why it takes me so long to get things done









tell me about it. plus the economy.


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_haha maybe you, but my car was paid for before it was even together







i was lucky enough to learn not to build a car on a credit card. thats probably why it takes me so long to get things done










haha no not my problem at all... I just saw a MKIV GTI with that sticker the other day, typical MKIV driver upside down on their loan but busy modifying the banks car.


----------



## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (XXX008XXX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
haha maybe you, but my car was paid for before it was even together







i was lucky enough to learn not to build a car on a credit card. thats probably why it takes me so long to get things done









I hear that.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (skidplate)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skidplate* »_
I hear that.

I only change one thing a year and not by choice.


----------



## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

if your going to get in to the 9's i think you will need a 3.6 and retain FSI custom burn , and a lot of work. I know you guys know your stuff, but its going to take it all to get there.....
p.s. I work for a vw dealer and I can tell you that 3.6 stock is a very good motor, I will sware all day the 3.6 passat is faster then the 3.2 r32. 
1600 pound body ,3.6 ti valve train big cams 9000rpm, really good port job, custom intake (the verable vw one just wont do) with a w8 tb , or some kinda ITB setup, custom pistons 14-1 or higher (FSI remeber) , upgraded fuel pump, custom tune, rods shaved crank, wingige setup, crank case pump, alky , and I would use a dsg trans..... less likly to get custom gearing.... but the shift time and the ability to never miss a shift would be worth that down side, lsd, what ever hpa is doing to keep them together in the turbo cars, big stickys. and luck. 
I was thinking the other day ...have you guys looked in the 2.5 intake> a intake like that could be made to work with a vr, the curled runners could just open up soner for the short runners. 

and I know thats a unrealistic list.







so I hope your smarter then me and can do it with out all that. could try asking vw for a donation 3.6 you guys do have the history to be taken serious.... and even vw could see 9's as a worth wiled investment....







even if it was a donor from a failure. bore it out and mak eit a 3.7. lol
its late and im










_Modified by elmer fud at 1:30 AM 2-21-2009_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*

Why bother keeping all the FSI crap and a DSG trans? That kind of stuff just robs power that could be used to go down the track.


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

3.6 is a great motor I know somebody who has dynoed pretty darn high with his swap. show n go it will hit the track.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_... and retain FSI

For a stripped down, bare bones drag race engine?
I can't think of a good reason to keep that system in place.

_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_...have you guys looked in the 2.5 intake> a intake like that could be made to work with a vr, the curled runners could just open up soner for the short runners.

I actually have on of those laying around somewhere, it's a well thought out factory manifold and it does have a type of velocity stack entry in the plenum. The only reason the runners are wrapped like that is because they are roughly 22" long from the flange face to the runner inlet. With his car there would be no real engine bay restraints/constrictions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

do you know what FSI does and how it works? it is a far better way of getting fuel in to the combustion chamber, and it would allow higher compression ratios, with out detonation. every car that uses it gains hp in a stock form. the biggest problem would be finding a aftermarket fuel pump. a its on the head and not a common thing yet.
as for the dsg, I know its a new tech, but it is significantly faster in stock form then a manuel and I would think that it would also be if modified to handle the power. add to that you will never miss a shift and I think its the wave of the future in import drag. some one just has to step up and work the bugs out. 
as for the 2.5 mani I was saying that the design is good for a vr6 cus you could have a effective short ram with unequal length tubes (like you need on a vr6). I would def shorten up the length of said tubes for a drag car obviously but the theroy is sound. 
I can really fight with you as your real world experience is far more then mine (good work by the way) but I feel these technology's are a good thing.


_Modified by elmer fud at 3:13 PM 2-22-2009_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*

Not fighting, I was just responding to your post.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_do you know what FSI does and how it works? it is a far better way of getting fuel in to the combustion chamber, and it would allow higher compression ratios, with out detonation. every car that uses it gains hp in a stock form. the biggest problem would be finding a aftermarket fuel pump. a its on the head and not a common thing yet.
as for the dsg, I know its a new tech, but it is significantly faster in stock form then a manuel and I would think that it would also be if modified to handle the power. add to that you will never miss a shift and I think its the wave of the future in import drag. some one just has to step up and work the bugs out. 
as for the 2.5 mani I was saying that the design is good for a vr6 cus you could have a effective short ram with unequal length tubes (like you need on a vr6). I would def shorten up the length of said tubes for a drag car obviously but the theroy is sound. 
I can really fight with you as your real world experience is far more then mine (good work by the way) but I feel these technology's are a good thing.

_Modified by elmer fud at 3:13 PM 2-22-2009_

do you know anyone that has put FSI in a non FSI car and gotten more power? i dont think so. every engine that has FSI is completly different then any other engine that doesnt have it. yes you can run more compression and bla bla bla, but we are not talking about a pump gas car either, and not to mention you can run more compression on pump E85. the BIGGEST problem with FSI is there is no aftermarket support AT ALL, not to mention parts are stupid expensive. ill stick to my injector setup for now, but FSI may be better in the future. only time will tell.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*

this is a race motor, having fsi vs. non fsi is not even debatable. the only reason they went fsi is to utilize a high compression for a factory car setting.


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
do you know anyone that has put FSI in a non FSI car and gotten more power? i dont think so. every engine that has FSI is completly different then any other engine that doesnt have it. yes you can run more compression and bla bla bla, but we are not talking about a pump gas car either, and not to mention you can run more compression on pump E85. the BIGGEST problem with FSI is there is no aftermarket support AT ALL, not to mention parts are stupid expensive. ill stick to my injector setup for now, but FSI may be better in the future. only time will tell.


if you reread my post I was talking of the 3.6 24v motor vw has out now in the Passat,Touareg and CC that has FSI stock. witch btw is 280 crank hp stock. 
the question what do you think it will take to see a 9 sec vw. I think its going to take this motor plus work to get there. im not trying to pick fights here. I just know how fast 9 sec is. and the fact that 250 whp is almost never seen in a vr6 n/a means its going to take alot of work to get there. yes FSI is new and has no backing yet...... but it will why not be the name that shows what it can do. 

look what FSI is doing for the 2.0t guys, the down side is that you cant used aftermarket efi... true but the chip is recodeable. I just think if it lets them use more compression on the street it would help with more compression on the track. 



_Modified by elmer fud at 10:03 AM 2-23-2009_


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Not fighting, I was just responding to your post. 


me neither just having a discussion.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_and the fact that 250 whp is almost never seen in a vr6 n/a means its going to take alot of work to get there. 


I'm pretty sure Chris (xxx008xxx) put down 266whp with just cams/intake/standalone/exhaust with the R32 motor in his MK3. 
FSI is neat, but it's not really needed for a race application. At high loads FSI works just like normal sequential injection. Sure you can argue that the fuel is more highly vaporized, but I think we're talking very small power difference here.


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
I'm pretty sure Chris (xxx008xxx) put down 266whp with just cams/intake/standalone/exhaust with the R32 motor in his MK3. 
FSI is neat, but it's not really needed for a race application. At high loads FSI works just like normal sequential injection. Sure you can argue that the fuel is more highly vaporized, but I think we're talking very small power difference here. 


ok I will bye that, but if the motor has it stock why not utilize it.?
and I did say "almost"











_Modified by elmer fud at 11:40 AM 2-23-2009_


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_
and the fact that 250 whp is almost never seen in a vr6 n/a means its going to take alot of work to get there.

Thats not because its not attainable, its because no one is trying. I would say its relatively easy (easier then people make it out to be) to do in a 24V or R32 (especially the R32) engine with headwork, cams, pistons SEM etc.
I think that people are just now starting to actually get on the bandwagon of really tuning these two engines N/A, and you will be surprised in the next year or two with the numbers and times that guys are going to lay down.
The only realistic reason any drag car would use the 3.6 VR6 would be for the monster intake and exhaust ports, and bore. The option of running FSI in a drag car isnt realistic right now because (like you stated) there isnt any way of controlling it, no serious drag racer is going to be running a chip tune on a car that they are trying to get into 9's, they need to be able to make tuning changes on the spot at the track.
A little debate is healthy in these forums, read back to the first or second page, i also suggested the 3.6, but it seems like these guys know what power/weight/suspension/redline/ etc. they need to run to break into thte 9's, and it seems like the 3.2 can bring him there.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*



elmer fud every car that uses it gains hp in a stock form. [I said:


> Modified by elmer fud at 3:13 PM 2-22-2009[/I]


you obviously dont remember what you type now do you. you were talking about the 3.6 and that is a completly different motor then any other engine VW makes, so how can you say every car that uses it gains hp in a stock form?


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *XXX008XXX* »_
you obviously dont remember what you type now do you. you were talking about the 3.6 and that is a completly different motor then any other engine VW makes, so how can you say every car that uses it gains hp in a stock form?


there not the only people useing in port injection, and at the time thats all I was speaking of. FSI or in port injection on all cars that use it makes a noteable increase in power in stock form, and from what I have seen in modified form as well. 

not to kill the subject cus I am enjoying this... but non of this 3.6 fsi dsg talk is realy worth anything unless someone is going to use it, its all guesses. most people including the serious drag guys on here do not have the funds to try this stuff yet... I knew that when I posted it, I guess what I was trying to say is in my opinion we are aways away from a 9 sec N/A car. it would be great if I was wroung but I dont think I am. I believe the technology is her now to do so but the money/backing is not as everyone said it would take alot of cash to develop the 3.6 in to a true drag motor but I believe it could hit 380-400 hp N/A . only time will tell ..... but you heard it her first.











_Modified by elmer fud at 1:28 PM 2-23-2009_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_ most people including the serious drag guys on here do not have the funds to try this stuff yet...

Even if there were funds available I would be hard pressed to spend any money dumping them into FSI or a DSG.. heck put all that money into a dog box and you'd be way ahead of the game. 
Some of the 'gains' from FSI have to be due to being able to run increased comp on lower octane fuels. Take that out as a factor and what is left? Also, why try and use a system that has to be tied to a bunch of systems that won't be used on a drag car (immo, epc, abs, traction control, etc). 
I still don't think it would take a 3.6 at any rate.








FSI to regular EFI is going to be the next hot conversion.


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 3:37 PM 2-23-2009_


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## GTIStile (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

I know nothing about FSI, but paul, you said that it allows you to run higher compression with less octane... Would the concept not remain using a fuel like C16 or Q16? Obviously that fuel has its limits as well and maybe what elmer fud is getting at is this could increase what you could do with a given fuel, even high octane?
Again, i know absolutly nothing about FSI, including what it stands for, but this discussion is interesting.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (GTIStile)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIStile* »_Obviously that fuel has its limits as well and maybe what elmer fud is getting at is this could increase what you could do with a given fuel, even high octane?

It seems like people can get by with 14:1 CR on high octane, but the HP increase isnt that great when you keep going higher... So i dont think it would be worth it to run FSI on C16 so you can run 15 or 16:1.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
It seems like people can get by with 14:1 CR on high octane, but the HP increase isnt that great when you keep going higher... So i dont think it would be worth it to run FSI on C16 so you can run 15 or 16:1.









i hate that chart.


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
It seems like people can get by with 14:1 CR on high octane, but the HP increase isnt that great when you keep going higher... So i dont think it would be worth it to run FSI on C16 so you can run 15 or 16:1.










you know I forgot about that chart, and that rule/concept, that was what I was getting at tho. raising the high compression roof on race fuel.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*

I hate that chart as well, it assumes that as you raise the compression ratio that nothing else changes. We all know how often that happens. One of the benefits of the higher compression ratio is to increase efficiency, sure. The other benefit is being able to keep high dynamic compression ratios with late intake valve closings, allowing big ve at higher rpms.
As far as FSI on race gas, I don't think it will help much with a very high octane fuel like Q16 or C16. It might have some benefit with lower octane fuels, and it might have a detrimental effect with oxygenated fuels (due to overcooling in the chamber). It's hard to say without actual experimentation, but at this point the view doesn't look worth the climb. It's easy to imagine that FSI with race gas will not make as much power as EFI and methanol.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_every car that uses it gains hp in a stock form.


_Quote, originally posted by *elmer fud* »_FSI or in port injection on all cars that use it makes a noteable increase in power in stock form, and from what I have seen in modified form as well.

If this were the case the naturally aspirated FSI 2.0 16v engine should have been a monster. When you look at the build, that is one hell of an engine in stock form, but it only lays down the same as a stock ABF 2.0 16v. I have a few ideas why, and all of them have been taken out of the scenario.


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## Ezhoracing (Aug 7, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (billyVR6)*

A drag motor only requires to run at FULL throttle.
Ive seen the injection on a 3.6 but have ideas on getting rid of it and making a useful manifold and injectors to get the fuel in.
Of course that's my opinion and what I will do but this is why we have this forum. 
I like to hear what others have and plan on doing. That way people don't make the same mistake twice.
And if someone comes up with a sweet idea and makes it work than all the better.








I know a great story about a XK150 at Bonneville Salt flats where a very simple quick custom manifold made the car go faster than ever before. Their "expert" custom intake manifold by some engineer was basically junk.
So trail and error is the best teacher and it don't have to be your.
BA


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## TDIVentoDave (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (Ezhoracing)*

This guy did a 3.6 swap in a mk4 that dropped FSI and made his own IM with injection ports.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3816965


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (TDIVentoDave)*

It's easy when you just leave the injectors in place.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

i'm imagining your car racing orange crush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_pAJ463zCg

i'm thinking nitromethane 3.6 and lots more weight
have you set a trap sp goal?


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 1:47 PM 2-27-2009_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_just leave the injectors in place.

Yeah, that was a chance I didn't want to take. I know they are sealed really well, but still having them welded shut made the most sense to me.
That reminds me, I need to put the injectors up for sale.


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_i'm imagining your car racing orange crush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_pAJ463zCg




 
i'm thinking nitromethane 3.6 and lots more weight
have you set a trap sp goal?




_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_i'm imagining your car racing orange crush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_pAJ463zCg




 
i'm thinking nitromethane 3.6 and lots more weight
have you set a trap sp goal?



more of that car!!!!!!!


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (elmer fud)*

it seems like a better head would help
is it possable to cnc copy honda ports (or something so revolutionary) to vw head
or alternative head design options for different ports (on a vr head)
like taking 6 air cooled 3.6 hemi porsche heads, cutting & welding them together, close up for coolant jacket, routing intakes to inside up, ex on both sides, 2 cams for all


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 2:39 PM 3-1-2009_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_it seems like a better head would help


The 3.2 heads flow pretty well.


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## stoners vr6 (Mar 19, 2008)

Any updates/new pics? This is an interesting build. Love the fact that you guys are really pushing the envelope and not going turbo like everyone else out there. There is something special to be said that you did it ALL MOTOR, and no boost. Props and best of luck!


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (stoners vr6)*

My contribution. Working on getting it done sometime this year.
16v/ABA build.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_My contribution. Working on getting it done sometime this year.
16v/ABA build.

... and looking for 9's?!


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
... and looking for 9's?!









Maybe one day. Need to finish it first


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

Cool. What throttles you got there; AE101's or AE111's?


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Cool. What throttles you got there; AE101's or AE111's?

AE111. Need a little cleaning but they are in good shape.


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## croniccorrado (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

any updates on this?


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