# vag required for DSG fluid change?



## ordpetegti (May 20, 2004)

Is it absolutely necessary to have a Vag to change the DSG fluid? I know I should get one, but money is really tight now. It appears that it is only used to determine the temp of the fluid. 
Thanks


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## cmosentine (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: vag required for DSG fluid change? (ordpetegti)*

I have wondered that too. My tought is probably not if you are careful. Assuming you have to idle your vehicle for some time to allow the dsg fluid to heat to between 35 and 45 C, I have to imagine that the case temp should be similar (Al is a good heat transfer material).
With that said, I do have VAGCOM so I plan on testing my idea at my first change which I plan on doing before the fall (at about 15-20K miles).
I have also asked on this very forum what would be the harm in a blind refill. Would an overfill be damaging. The general thought was it was not a good idea. I then thought about just measuring the old fluid drained and replace that same amount. Assuming a proper factory fill and no obvious case leakage (from inspection) this should be safe. But I will probably chicken out and do it by the book.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

yes


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## RPIJG (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

I just did this to my GTI this weekend and despite puckering my hole most of the time, it went ok. 
I had an off-duty VW tech to assist (he brought the dumb refill tube thing as well).
Things I noticed. Had to remove battery and tray to get the filter out, dumb.
Tearing around with your head cut off before you reach the destination you wish to have your fluid changed at is dumb. Fluid hot.
Draining really is as simple as removing plug...waiting for overflow of screaming hot liquid to pour out, then having to place your hand for a second time back into the line of fire to remove the "overfill" tube again, with the screaming hot liquid.
Hook up the glorified fill tube and painstakingly squeeze the fluid in there. Here's where I learned a subtle nuance from most DIY's and the VW tech manual instructions. Most DIY's were saying to push 6L, the VW tech instructions said 5.5L.
With 6L of fluid in the vehicle, and a temp of 42ºC I got just over 750mL of overflow. 
Frankly, as long as you can be 100% sure that your tranny is over 35ºC, you wouldn't need VAG, for the following reason.
If you were to pull the adapter off and allow the fluid to exit the overflow at exactly 35ºC, you would have a different volume of fluid as someone who pulls the adapter off and allows overflow to exit when the tranny/fluid is at 45ºC. I don't know what the expansion of this particular oil is going to be over that 10ºC range, but I bet it's a reasonable amount.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

lol, that is scary that the fluid is hot when the car is warm.


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

*CV-QR*

Well, I'm changing mine, without Vag-Com.. I figure I couldn't do any worse than the dealer.. They changed it at 40,000 miles, I supplied the 6 liters of fluid and filter. They gave me back one liter, which means they only put in five liters, and it's been running fine for the last 50,000 miles.. I made my own change tool for about $10..


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## ordpetegti (May 20, 2004)

*Re: CV-QR (LMGS)*

I am doing mine today also without the vag. I have waited long enough and done the research. I made the tool with parts from home depot and am gonna take it slow. Hope it works.


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

*CV-QR*

Let us know how it goes.. I plan to do mine some time this week.. I'm going to measure how much fluid I get out of the transmission so I can see how bad the dealer screwed it up when they changed it..


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## ordpetegti (May 20, 2004)

*Re: CV-QR (ordpetegti)*

Well guys, I did mine yesterday. Took me about 2 hours because I worked extra slow and drank many beers during the change. It was a piece of cake. Easy!! Here is the link I used. 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5493...rvice
I ran the car for about 5 mins before to heat up the fluid to help it drain. The hardest part was tapping the extra drain plug to make the home-made filler tool, which worked flawlessly btw. I used an infrared thermometer that my neighbor had. It was a cheap $10 pen-sized model. The temp range was 35-45 C, which is 95-115 F. I took an average reading, because the bottom of the trans case took longer than the top to heat up. So I got to 96 on the bottom and 125F on the top, which would mean about a median of 110-111F. I removed the filler tool and the fluid ran out for about 1 minute and then slowed to a drip. It took about 5 minutes at idle for the trans to heat to that temp. 
I replaced the plug and washer and test drove the car. Everything worked great. Shifts were tight and precise and all functions normal. I did have an airbag light and ESP light for about 5 minutes but they went away after a little driving. 
I pulled off the air intake(stock) and the battery and battery box. It was an extra 10 minutes of work, but it made the element change that much easier. I did not even spill a drop of oil during the entire change. 
If anyone had been waiting to try this, go for it! It is easy!!


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## RPIJG (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: CV-QR (ordpetegti)*

airbag and ESP light are because of the battery removal. You can get those to turn off by resetting the "convenience mode" to factory settings. Then they go away. I think that people have been making more of this fluid swap than should be made of it. Unless you are a complete dumb butt, this is a no brainer and saves a TON of money.


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

Hi-res DIY still available here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=169356


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (Slickvic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slickvic* »_Hi-res DIY still available here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=169356

That's a good DIY, but one thing has me worried.. Is it really safe to put the jack stands under the middle of the control arm?? I don't think the control arms are made to hold up the weight of the car. Just looks dangerous to me..


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: (LMGS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LMGS* »_
That's a good DIY, but one thing has me worried.. Is it really safe to put the jack stands under the middle of the control arm?? I don't think the control arms are made to hold up the weight of the car. Just looks dangerous to me..

I would agree with you. I dont put my jackstands there when I work on my car.


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## RPIJG (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: (Slickvic)*

the other thing with that DIY is that it is for a diesel. The majority of the section where you are removing items to get to the filter assembly and drain plug are entirely different for a DSG on a GTI.


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## ordpetegti (May 20, 2004)

*Re: (RPIJG)*

true, it is for a diesel. The only difference is as follows: remove the stock airbox, battery and battery box. That will allow all the access you need to get to remove the DSG filter housing.


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

*CV-QR*

I changed mine yesterday.. I put the entire car up on jack stands so it was still level.. It was an easy job that only took about an hour, and I let it drain for about 15 minutes.. I put in 5.5 liters, just like the Bentley says.. I don't have a Vag-com, so I just started the engine, shifted through all the gears with the brakes on, let it run for about 10 minutes.. When I removed my home made fill tool, I had almost a liter run back out.. If I would have known it was only going to hold 4.5 liters, I would have only put in 5 liters, and not opened the last bottle.. Anyway, I got it done and it seems to be running and shifting fine.. I guess the fluid does wear out over time, but the old fluid looked pretty much like the new fluid..


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## ordpetegti (May 20, 2004)

*Re: CV-QR (LMGS)*

when I did mine, when all the fluid had run out when it got to temperature, It had about 5.25 liters in it. 4.5 quarts sounds a bit low. Maybe you should have monitored the temp of the trans. Seems like it may have gotten a little hot and drained more fluid. or maybe it will be fine. I used an infrared thermometer to measure temp off the case. I was too much of a scaredy cat to try and wing it. The temp range required seemed to narrow to me to guess. How is you car running and shifting afterwards? Hope it works out all right. 
I have put 1500 miles on mine and everything seems fine, although some shifts don't feel as violent as when the car was new.


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

*CV-QR*

Well, here's the story.. I changed the filter two or three days before I changed the fluid, so there was still some fluid in the filter housing.. The first time I had the dealer change it, and they didn't put over 5 liters in it then.. I gave them the 6 liters of fluid and they gave me 1 liter back, so maybe changing the filter at the same time would account for the other 1/2 liter that I didn't put in..
I thought about the infrared thermometer method, but it wouldn't give an accurate fluid temperature.. I don't see why VW didn't just put a tube in there, that is the right length to give a correct fill with it fully warmed up, not some temperature between cold and hot.. I also don't see how the level could change that much over a certain temperature range.
So far it running and shifting fine.. I still have the fluid, so if I do get a Vag-com I can check it later..


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## ordpetegti (May 20, 2004)

*Re: CV-QR (LMGS)*

I hear you now. Glad it has worked out for you. Yes, VW could have made it easier, but they suck and didn't. Let us know how the car keeps running. Maybe more people will start trying this on their own.


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: CV-QR (ordpetegti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ordpetegti* »_I hear you now. Glad it has worked out for you. Yes, VW could have made it easier, but they suck and didn't. Let us know how the car keeps running. *Maybe more people will start trying this on their own.* 

I will be as soon as I complete my DIY fill kit.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387117


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## LMGS (Sep 21, 2007)

*CV-QR*

I bought another DSG Fill plug, Item # 15 Part# N 902 154 04, and a brass hose fitting and six feet of clear plastic hose at Lowes.. I drilled out the plug, and used JD Weld to attach the hose fitting to it.. On the other end I just used a funnel that would slip into the hose. The funnel also had a small hole in the lip that I used to wire it to the open hood latch. I used a small pair of vice grips to pinch off the hose between bottles of fluid. The whole thing cost me less than $10, and worked great..


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: CV-QR (LMGS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LMGS* »_I bought another DSG Fill plug, Item # 15 Part# N 902 154 04, and a brass hose fitting and six feet of clear plastic hose at Lowes.. I drilled out the plug, and used JD Weld to attach the hose fitting to it.. On the other end I just used a funnel that would slip into the hose. The funnel also had a small hole in the lip that I used to wire it to the open hood latch. I used a small pair of vice grips to pinch off the hose between bottles of fluid. The whole thing cost me less than $10, and worked great.. 

As I indicated in my thread:
_Yes, there is the home made fix that was created by Deviantspeed:
http://deviantspeed.com/diy-ds...s6262
That solution is a bit too much DIY for me. _
My goal is to build a fluid filler that is priced as close to the $10 solution as possible without having to to do the whole drilling, thread tapping and JB weld routine.












_Modified by Slickvic at 9:00 AM 5-13-2009_


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## RPIJG (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: CV-QR (LMGS)*

I believe that the range is likely the normal operating temperature for the fluid not some random value. The overflow tube defines the end volume. So long as the car is level, this change should be no more difficult than drain, fill, warm, let overflow drain, plug and drive.


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: CV-QR (RPIJG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RPIJG* »_I believe that the range is likely the normal operating temperature for the fluid not some random value. The overflow tube defines the end volume. So long as the car is level, this change should be no more difficult than drain, fill, warm, let overflow drain, plug and drive.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I tend to agree with this. Think about it. Viscosity may change with temperature but not volume as it is a liquid not a gas.
Whether the fluid is 50 degrees or 300 degrees, 5 liters is still 5 liters.


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## RPIJG (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: CV-QR (Slickvic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slickvic* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I tend to agree with this. Think about it. Viscosity may change with temperature but not volume as it is a liquid not a gas.
Whether the fluid is 50 degrees or 300 degrees, 5 liters is still 5 liters. 

Well, that isn't entirely correct, as liquids do expand and contract depending on temperature. Not to the extent of gases, but it still happens.


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## Slickvic (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: CV-QR (RPIJG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RPIJG* »_
Well, that isn't entirely correct, as liquids do expand and contract depending on temperature. Not to the extent of gases, but it still happens.

For the purpose of this exercise I will assume approximate volumes and get back to guys on this.


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## PoorMansDub (Nov 28, 2010)

I know this is an old thread, but I am preparing to do a DSG fluid change without VCDS and would like to comment. Why can't someone just do a little quick math and settle this once and for all. 

If you have VCDS and you do a fluid change at the correct temp (lets say 40C) and you put in 5.5L and when you were done with the process you measured out that you ended up using 5.25L total, wouldn't it stand to reason that the correct fluid level for the DSG is 5.25L? 

This is hypothetical of course...:wave:


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## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

PoorMansDub said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I am preparing to do a DSG fluid change without VCDS and would like to comment. Why can't someone just do a little quick math and settle this once and for all.
> 
> If you have VCDS and you do a fluid change at the correct temp (lets say 40C) and you put in 5.5L and when you were done with the process you measured out that you ended up using 5.25L total, wouldn't it stand to reason that the correct fluid level for the DSG is 5.25L?
> 
> This is hypothetical of course...:wave:


that's assuming the transmission was correctly filled to begin with. there also could be variances in how much fluid is removed when draining.


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## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

People seem to think that if you're a pint over, you're so screwed, NO...

Simply put in what you took out, COLD.. Motor does not have to be ON, running, or
needs to be at any temperature. This is ridiculous, how scared people
are to do their own services because of procedures, that are not necessary.

I never followed ANY of the procedures changing the DSG fluid, ran 243,500+ miles,
all original drive-train parts. 

Corvette started doing the same thing, we put in what we took out after it sat and
cooled off. 

Take the plug out, then take the level tube out, and let it ALL drain! Car must at least
be level... When it's all done, put the level tube & plug back in, do the TOP fill with a long
funnel, and put in what you took out, simple as that. BOTTOM fill is the hard part, it 
makes a big mess, and you can still pump in what you took out, then put the plug back in.

YES, you can overfill, but for god's sake, 5.5 out, and 6 in, won't hurt a THING!

They make these procedures to SCARE you into going to the dealer and paying $250.00 
to have them do it. I did mine three times in 243,500 miles, it was fine. I went 80,000
before doing mine, because it was tons of highway miles.


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## Jaxone (Jul 4, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> People seem to think that if you're a pint over, you're so screwed, NO...
> 
> Simply put in what you took out, COLD.. Motor does not have to be ON, running, or
> needs to be at any temperature. This is ridiculous, how scared people
> ...


Guess again 
You MUST measure with engine running because there is actually much oil that will be sucked into the mechatronic unit and in the oil pipes.
Removing and filling while cold not recommended.

If you under fill you might experience problems , if you over fill (way to much over the limit) you might experience problems.

Never just assume your gearbox HAD enough oil in it when you start the oil change operation. If your gearbox had only 6 liters of oil to begin with, by filling up what you took out, you are going to under fill again.
So this is the reason you need to measure level. 

If you are 100% sure the oil level in your gearbox is correct when you start the operation, then yes, you can put back what you take. But are you 100% sure ?


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