# *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!*



## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

As I walked around the vendor area of H2O, I found at Induktion Motorsports' tent the Snow Performance Boost Cooler kit. This was something I had in mind for my girlfriend's GLI for some time because the car is pretty much maxed out on the stock Ko3S. With future plans of going big turbo, I figured this would prove to be a "healthy" mod for the car.
I had a long discussion with Scott Williams from USRT. Very cool guy, knows what he's talking about...definitely will be getting more of my business. So we talked and I promised him a big thread on here to promote this kit. So, here it is:
We opted for the Stage II MAP-based kit. Scott sells a Stage I kit, but it is better off for those with standalone systems to control the spray. With the Stage II, the spray is variable, and instead of getting a MAF-based kit that reads the MAF voltage, I decided to make use of the Golden Eagle vac manifold we already have on the car and use the MAP controller. We also bought a gallon of Snow Performance's "Boost Juice," which is their own water/methanol mixture, and quoting Scott, "It's 49% methanol, 50% water, and 1% if I told ya I'd have to kill ya."







Lastly, an 8oz bottle of Nitro Booster, which is just nitro methane, was included in our purchase. It says +50hp on the bottle, but I'm sure that's engine dependent.








Mod list of the car:
GIAC X+
4.7v Diode
Catch Can
Cranked Wastegate
(27psi Spikes, 15psi @ Redline)
GHL 3” Tb
Lemmiwinks Tuned
Samco TIH
NGK BKR7E Plugs
ECS Ultimate Dog Bone Mount
Golden Eagle Vacuum Manifold
Custom FMIC
ESE CAI
Relocated Forge DV
Bosch 4-bar FPR
ECS Pulleys
Dual Stage MBC
Powergasket Plus
N249 and Secondary Air Injection Deleted
Here's what is all included, minus the fluids:








Reservoir, pump, controller, nozzles, nylon tubing, and hell even wire loom, zip ties, and electrical connectors are all in the kit. There's also a NPT Tap for mounting the nozzle in a hardpipe. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
My concern for where to store the fluid began when I looked around and couldn't really find a spot for the extra reservoir. Her engine bay is cluttered with this and that and where there's room, it's either a) not convenient or b) too hot for plastic. So I figured, hell I'll just use the stock reservoir. It has a built in low level sensor which would make it easier to keep the fluid filled.








We drilled a hole at the very bottom of the reservoir, and thanks to VW for having a hole cutout directly below. Put in the threaded piece shown and gorilla glued it for lack of any other goop. Seals perfectly, no leaks!
My next step was figuring out how to mount the pump. It has a bracket with rubber vibration isolators, so I figured it's best to make use of those. Since we aren't running the secondary air injection, I hacked up the bracket for the SAI pump and welded on some flat sheetmetal.








This way, the pump is mounted "correctly" using the bracket it came with, and it's also lower than the reservoir which is a must if you want it to actually pump anything. There was also lots of room infront of the block, the only thing to watch for is the oil filter.
Next I just screwed in the 90 degree fittings to the pump. All the fittings for the nylon hose in this kit are the quick disconnect type like on paintball guns. Just pull back and the hose will slide out.








Here's a below and above shot of the pump mounted using the SAI pump bracket:
















Next thing to mount was the MAP controller. This was the most convenient, trouble-free spot to mount it. Just used 3M molding tape.








There's a vacuum port at the bottom, which runs to a boost/vac source, such as the Golden Eagle vac mani we're using. The harness for the power, ground, and pump wires clips in the bottom. The two dials for boost are on top, which shows the convenience. One dial reads Start PSI and the other is Full PSI. You set the PSI you want the pump to BEGIN spraying, and full is your max boost. The controller than makes a graph and signals the pump to spray according to your boost level. At full boost, it sprays at 100%.
Finally, the nozzle. This ended up being my bigget PITA b/c I ended up drilling the tap to big, so the nozzle was wobably. I got an 1/8" cap from work, cut off the end, and welded it to the hole I drilled. I retap died the nozzle to screw in perfectly, and put on some thread sealer.








You have to make sure the spray is perpendicular to the airflow.
For a lil extra







, I decided to make use of the green LED in the kit. It's use is to come on when the controller signals the pump to spray. One wire to ground, the other to the controller-pump wire. Well maybe I mixed the wires b/c it hasn't worked for me yet, but here's where I put it.








So now it's all wired up. The instruction manual with the kit is self-explanatory on the wiring and fluid lines and where what goes. What will take you the longest is if you want to make it a clean install. But that's anything right?
---------------------------------------
So with the system installed and working, it's time to head out and make the performance difference. We went out with the harness to the controller unplugged so we could get a baseline run or two in. It was about 60 degrees out during testing.
We started at 0 degrees advance with Lemmiwinks, and well, we couldn't go higher. A second run proved this so we left it at that. Here's the graph:








Pull was up at around 6 so we figured, can't really go higher now.
So pulled into a gas station, plugged the controller harness back in, and off we went. It took us 5 or 6 runs til we got it where we needed to be. What we ended up with was *6.75* degrees of advance!!







Here's the final graph:








Notice the difference in the IATs, and also the timing pull is around 3. I'm very comfortable with that, as it gives me some play should it get warmer out.
And a graph logging boost, a/f, and MAF signal.








Overall, the car is pulling very nice. The power delivery is super smooth. All the way to redline it just hauls. I have yet to see what the benefits are compared to a Civic-equipped friend of mine as we are very close matches.
So this testing confirms the "running race gas programming on pump gas" statement I've read before. I'm excited to put in some 100 or 112 and see what I can bump the timing to now.
We did not get a chance to test the Nitro Booster that same night as I was unsure of what blocks to log and also did not want to waste the entire bottle on what was in the tank. Rest assured tho that when I do get some results from it, they'll be posted here for easy access.
The only other thing I plan on doing is getting a small micron filter and seeing how regular old washer fluid works. The screens on the nozzles with the kit are 100 micron, so if the dye from washer fluid can get through 25 or 50, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't want to spray $12.50 washer fluid onto the windshield. Also, I decided that with this extra usage of the reservoir, it's time to upgrade to the Euro spec one, which is 5.3L instead of 3L. The part number for this is 1J0-955-453 L and the plug you'll need is 2D0-955-465 B. Ordered it today, but I don't think I need to give ya guys a write-up on installing that.








If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. Hope this write-up eases some of your fears of doing this if you are/were considering it. Definitely something to have no matter what turbo you're running. The kit is COMPLETE, and there's even a few options for upgrades, such as a solenoid in case you either mount the nozzle below the tank to keep from gravity feeding or if you mount the nozzle after the throttle body and it will keep from siphoning at idle (vacuum). Also there is a control switch that, if for some reason the pump stops spraying when you need it to, it will send a signal to lower your boost or timing, depending on what you can have it do. It's a failsafe thing for those "just in case's."
If there are tech questions I can't answer for ya, I'm pretty sure Scott will be able to chime in and give ya some feedback. Again, big thanks to USRT and Induktion Motorsports for the kit.









_Modified by SAVwKO at 11:25 PM 10-11-2006_


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

Is there a low fluid sensor?


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## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (Audi4u)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Audi4u* »_Is there a low fluid sensor?
 If you read the post you would see he said he used the washerfluid res. So Yes


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## lerak2598 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*

Sweet, can't wait to get mine! Thanks for the writeup!


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »__
So this testing confirms the "running race gas programming on pump gas" statement I've read before. I'm excited to put in some 100 or 112 and see what I can bump the timing to now.


i do believe you can run 100 octane programs on just 93 w/ the kit


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (cincyTT)*

And people were calling us crazy when we first started suggesting this!






















A Very nice write up!! We just re-did a customer's A4 install utilizing his washer bottle a few days ago (his dealership broke the Snow reservoir while they were doing an oil change, how they did this I don't know, but it ripped the lower fitting out).
Click here for the Stage 2 Kit on our website! Another customer of ours w/ a mk4 1.8T (all bolt ons) dyno'd ~ 10WHP higher than a similarly modified car (same exhaust, software, intake, etc) on the dyno @ H2O simply by running the Stage 2 kit w/ Boostjuice... And this was without any tuning, on regular 93 octane!! This really works!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_And people were calling us crazy when we first started suggesting this!






















A Very nice write up!! We just re-did a customer's A4 install utilizing his washer bottle a few days ago (his dealership broke the Snow reservoir while they were doing an oil change, how they did this I don't know, but it ripped the lower fitting out).
Click here for the Stage 2 Kit on our website! Another customer of ours w/ a mk4 1.8T (all bolt ons) dyno'd ~ 10WHP higher than a similarly modified car (same exhaust, software, intake, etc) on the dyno @ H2O simply by running the Stage 2 kit w/ Boostjuice... And this was without any tuning, on regular 93 octane!! This really works!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I also dyno'd at H2O but without the kit. 225whp and 270wtq. I hope to get on the rollers again before winter and see what this setup, + nitro + race gas does. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

Great kit, got one my self.
Make sure the check back on those quick connects every now and then because they tend to leak, or even break.
BTW no need to log knock voltage because VAG-COM is way to slow to catch any spikes.


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
BTW no need to log knock voltage because VAG-COM is way to slow to catch any spikes.

lol...the day that thread LA Wolfsburg gets brought back to the dead...I made the logs last night and saw that today. Oh well.


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

When you mix with nitro make sure to follow their directions.
What are you gonna be using for the 50/50 mix? Boost Juice is nice but kinda pricey?


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_
Next thing to mount was the MAP controller. This was the most convenient, trouble-free spot to mount it. Just used 3M molding tape.
There's a vacuum port at the bottom, which runs to a boost/vac source, such as the Golden Eagle vac mani we're using. The harness for the power, ground, and pump wires clips in the bottom. The two dials for boost are on top, which shows the convenience. One dial reads Start PSI and the other is Full PSI. You set the PSI you want the pump to BEGIN spraying, and full is your max boost. The controller than makes a graph and signals the pump to spray according to your boost level. At full boost, it sprays at 100%.

Sounds pretty straight forward thanks for the write up! Does it use a HOBBS switch or the controller has an internal brain of some sort? How does it know how much boost you are running? Seems like a pretty straight forward install, good job on the placement!!! I really want to run one of these soon on my car







(one project at a time though I guess







)


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## -Khaos- (Dec 22, 2003)

How's the timing pull at partial throttle? (IE: before the meth kicks in)


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: (-Khaos-)*


_Quote, originally posted by *-Khaos-* »_How's the timing pull at partial throttle? (IE: before the meth kicks in)

It has 2 settings so he can set 50% nozzle working at psi X and it progressively gets more until you reach the second setting psi Y so PT 'should' be ok...but good point http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## -Khaos- (Dec 22, 2003)

*Re: (18T_BT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *18T_BT* »_It has 2 settings so he can set 50% nozzle working at psi X and it progressively gets more until you reach the second setting psi Y so PT 'should' be ok...but good point http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yeah I noticed that, which is better than some other kits. I knew someone that had this and it was either on or off. He told me he had quite a bit of timing pull before the meth. kicked in, but afterwards it was all smooth sailing.








Just curious if he had a chance to do partial throttle logs and see where the spray needed to start. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (-Khaos-)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_When you mix with nitro make sure to follow their directions.
What are you gonna be using for the 50/50 mix? Boost Juice is nice but kinda pricey?

I'll end up testing regular ol washer fluid but I'll be filtering it with a smaller micron pad to get rid of the dye if it's a problem.

_Quote, originally posted by *18T_BT* »_
Sounds pretty straight forward thanks for the write up! Does it use a HOBBS switch or the controller has an internal brain of some sort? How does it know how much boost you are running? Seems like a pretty straight forward install, good job on the placement!!! I really want to run one of these soon on my car







(one project at a time though I guess







)

The controller does all the work. It has a built-in MAP sensor. So by tapping into a boost/vac source, when you're hitting 20psi, 20psi goes thru the vac line that you connect to the controller and it senses that.

_Quote, originally posted by *-Khaos-* »_How's the timing pull at partial throttle? (IE: before the meth kicks in)

I haven't ever thought to log that. But, since this thing turns on according to boost, it should be fine. I drive around on low boost (dual stage) regularly, but if I'm in high and I have a part throttle surge up to like 18 or so, once it hits 8psi, the pump will kick on and spray.


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

Also, another tid bit...the dial for the Start PSI goes from 2psi to 8psi. So you can have it start spraying as early as 2psi if you're that worried about high timing pull. But this thing isn't pulling timing on 6-7psi so...I set it for 8psi. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_
The controller does all the work. It has a built-in MAP sensor. So by tapping into a boost/vac source, when you're hitting 20psi, 20psi goes thru the vac line that you connect to the controller and it senses that.
* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif that's cool!* 
I haven't ever thought to log that. But, since this thing turns on according to boost, it should be fine. I drive around on low boost (dual stage) regularly, but if I'm in high and I have a part throttle surge up to like 18 or so, once it hits 8psi, the pump will kick on and spray.
* on a smaller turbo application as a k03 sport it's not AS bad, although there is a good amount of timing down low on most 'chips,' but for an upgraded turbo, that's actually a really nice feature, progressive water injection to limit PT timing advance*


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## 18t_QC_GTI (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*

What did you set the max boost at? Would it be better to set it at 10, or 11... So that at high RPM, when the turbo can't flow all that much, you get the full blast, this would help lower EGT's at higher RPMs.


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (18T_BT)*

Just another FYI, ruso has been p/ming me about it and is concerned about the clearance with the oil filter.
The bracket that comes with the pump can be fitted two ways. It has 3 holes in it, and 2 in the pump itself, so you can move the whole bracket like an inch either way, which in turn moves the pump when you bolt it down. Originally when I bolted the pump up, it was in the way of the filter vertically, so I got pissed and adjusted it. So now, the oil filter can unscrew and come off without the pump being in the way. Only thing I do differently is I just unscrew the filter til oil starts dripping out and let it all drain before taking it off. This way I don't get oil all over the water/meth pump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by SAVwKO at 10:35 PM 10-11-2006_


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (18t_QC_GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *18t_QC_GTI* »_What did you set the max boost at? Would it be better to set it at 10, or 11... So that at high RPM, when the turbo can't flow all that much, you get the full blast, this would help lower EGT's at higher RPMs.

Max boost is set at 25psi as that's the highest the dial goes. If you set the Full setting too low, it won't match the detonation curve. Most of the timing pull people see is at peak boost levels, not at 10-11psi at redline. So it's not a matter of flow of the turbo. If you want to increase the amount of liquid flow at ANY rpm level, just upgrade the nozzle size. They have them in 60, 100, 175, 225, 375, and 625 ml/min. I'm running the 225, and when we go BT, it'll be swapped for the 375.


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## 18t_QC_GTI (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*

thanks for the info! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (18t_QC_GTI)*

And here's some more tidbits that I guess are share-worthy.
Just found out that most washer fluids are NOT 50/50, more like 80% water and 20% methanol. So, what does this mean? Well, water is the better of the two for detonation control. So I'm guessing this would help with timing pull overall. Water also cools MORE because it takes more energy to vaporize water than methanol. However, it takes longer for water to vaporize than methanol. One way to help with this is to position your nozzle farther from the throttle body. This way, it has more time to cool down the air stream. By using more methanol in the mixture, you get immediate cooling, but not as much as water.
I guess there's no harm in seeing what washer fluid will do. It's not like I'll blow anything up. Also there are some deep freeze versions for harsh winters that are 60/40 mixes so it's closer to 50/50. I'll see what I turn up.


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_I'll end up testing regular ol washer fluid but I'll be filtering it with a smaller micron pad to get rid of the dye if it's a problem.

No need for that.
Been running washer fluid with few bottles of HEET mix for little over 3 months and no clogging what so ever. Just took out nozzle for re-check yesterday.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
No need for that.
Been running washer fluid with few bottles of HEET mix for little over 3 months and no clogging what so ever. Just took out nozzle for re-check yesterday.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Well I figure it can't hurt. Is that the stuff WalMart carries? How much is a bottle?


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

good reading from a old forced induction forum for those that havent read yet
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2212397
if need be 27psi has some logs he made with just distilled water
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2688048


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_Well I figure it can't hurt. Is that the stuff WalMart carries? How much is a bottle?

HEET is about $1 a bottle from Walmart


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_As I walked around the vendor area of H2O, I found at *Induktion Motorsports'* tent the Snow Performance Boost Cooler kit. I had a long discussion with Scott Williams from *USRT*. Very cool guy, knows what he's talking about...definitely will be getting more of my business. So we talked and I* promised him a big thread on here to promote this kit. *_Modified by SAVwKO at 11:25 PM 10-11-2006_

nuf said


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## SDvDubs (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (cincyTT)*

So how often do you need to refill it? 
Great write up BTW I've been very interested in this and just learned a lot!


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## livesoundz (Aug 24, 2005)

how long is your stock reservior lasting while being daily driven, i.e., how many miles to a full tank of fluid?


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (DubGray1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubGray1.8T* »_ If you read the post you would see he said he used the washerfluid res. So Yes









Sorry, I meant the pump. Is there some sort of sensor in the pump to keep it from buring up if you run out of fluid? For the guys that cant use a oem res.


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (Audi4u)*


_Quote, originally posted by *livesoundz* »_how long is your stock reservior lasting while being daily driven, i.e., how many miles to a full tank of fluid?

Well that depends on the driving style. See I daily drive on low boost, which spikes at 7psi and after 4krpm will go up to about 15. The pump is set via the controller to start spraying at 8psi. So, it doesn't get used at all unless I'm boosting above 8psi. The nozzle in there is rated at 225ml/min. So if the reservoir is 3L, or 3000ml, that means I'd have 13minutes and 20 seconds of continuous spray, which is a lot. I'm upgrading to the Euro spec reservoir that is 5.3L so it lasts longer.

_Quote, originally posted by *Audi4u* »_
Sorry, I meant the pump. Is there some sort of sensor in the pump to keep it from buring up if you run out of fluid? For the guys that cant use a oem res.

Not to sure on that. I think if you do this mod, it should be very critical that you make sure to keep the tank filled up. If you're going to go thru all this time to install it and have the performance gain, when that light comes on...get some more liquid!


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (Audi4u)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Audi4u* »_Sorry, I meant the pump. Is there some sort of sensor in the pump to keep it from buring up if you run out of fluid? For the guys that cant use a oem res.

No sensor in the pump, but you can opt to get the 2qt reservoir w/ a low-level sensor.... $39.95 w/ LED and all!


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## turbotuner20V (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

could you gut the stock washer reservoir and pull out the sensor elements and reattach them to a seperate bottle? This way you'd still get the light on the cluster?
My throttlebody is now on the driver side and i've got a ton of room where the stock battery/airbox used to be, so i'll be installing it over there if i pick one up.

badass writeup by the way... i'm convinced to try it now http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (turbotuner20V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbotuner20V* »_could you gut the stock washer reservoir and pull out the sensor elements and reattach them to a seperate bottle? This way you'd still get the light on the cluster?
My throttlebody is now on the driver side and i've got a ton of room where the stock battery/airbox used to be, so i'll be installing it over there if i pick one up.

badass writeup by the way... i'm convinced to try it now http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'm sure it's doable. That reservoir is made outa soft plastic. Doesn't take much from a power drill to make a hole thru it.
Glad you liked the write-up. Give my old motor some water/meth love.








P.S. Since you have all that room, I'd suggest getting a nice sized bottle. The one with the kit is smaller than the stock washer reservoir. I'd say find something that is 5L mininum.


_Modified by SAVwKO at 10:15 AM 10-12-2006_


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## under boost (Apr 22, 2006)

*Re: (turbotuner20V)*

nice work mike! 2 write ups in a month...you've been busy.









i like the part where it says "timing pull was 3*, and i am totally comfortable with that.* just in case it gets warm out,* i have some room to play" i just want to clarify for myself, you, and the rest of the forum, *you do live in ohio.* it will not be warm again til march/april 2007.


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## turbotuner20V (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_
I'm sure it's doable. That reservoir is made outa soft plastic. Doesn't take much from a power drill to make a hole thru it.
Glad you liked the write-up. Give my old motor some water/meth love.








P.S. Since you have all that room, I'd suggest getting a nice sized bottle. The one with the kit is smaller than the stock washer reservoir. I'd say find something that is 5L mininum.



yea, i'll be looking for a big tank.. part of the reason why i want to keep my washer sensor vs. the 2qt. tank w/ led linked above my other post.
oh, and your motor is coming back to life friday


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## k0mpresd (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: (under boost)*

this write up has got me thinking...


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (k0mpresd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *under boost* »_nice work mike! 2 write ups in a month...you've been busy.








i like the part where it says "timing pull was 3*, and i am totally comfortable with that.* just in case it gets warm out,* i have some room to play" i just want to clarify for myself, you, and the rest of the forum, *you do live in ohio.* it will not be warm again til march/april 2007.









Yes I have. Lucky me I have a g/f who buys the stuff and I get to put it on. And plus I'm going outside the box, not just the regular bolt ons.
And hey, yea it's Ohio...which means you never know when we'll end up with a random day in January that's 70 degrees out, and the next it snows. I know you remember this past January when that happened.









_Quote, originally posted by *turbotuner20V* »_
yea, i'll be looking for a big tank.. part of the reason why i want to keep my washer sensor vs. the 2qt. tank w/ led linked above my other post.
oh, and your motor is coming back to life friday









Sweet...can't wait to hear about it!

_Quote, originally posted by *k0mpresd* »_this write up has got me thinking...









What you thinking mang?


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## k0mpresd (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_What you thinking mang?

i might need to invest in one of these kits instead of a new intercooler core
this kit would be cheaper (for me) and prob more efficient


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (k0mpresd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *k0mpresd* »_
i might need to invest in one of these kits instead of a new intercooler core
this kit would be cheaper (for me) and prob more efficient

Well, I'm sure you looked at the difference in IATs from non-water/meth to spraying it. Definitely lower, especially mid-rpm range when boost is higher. And if you're BT and go with a bigger nozzle, you'll be spraying more volume. Not to mention, if IATs are all you're worried about, you can position the nozzle farther away from the throttle body. The solution will cool the air down more if it's in the air longer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Geeze, noticed I was reading my own graphs wrong lol. Noticed that at peak boost, I lowered IATs about 12-13 degrees Celsius, which is 53-55 degrees Fahrenheit.










_Modified by SAVwKO at 10:52 AM 10-12-2006_


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## k0mpresd (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

yea..im more going for lower iat's not so much being able to increase timing...i dont really want to crank my timing 6* all the way across the map


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (k0mpresd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *k0mpresd* »_yea..im more going for lower iat's not so much being able to increase timing...i dont really want to crank my timing 6* all the way across the map

I'm sure you read it but remember water cools more than methanol does, but takes longer. So you could either run a higher methanol mixture with the nozzle closer to the throttle body, or you can run a higher water mixture with it farther away. If you run washer fluid, and it's a higher water mixture than meth, put the nozzle farther away. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## k0mpresd (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

i read the thread.. but cool..thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: (k0mpresd)*

i installed mine last weel. made a bracket with diamond platng to mount to the outer frame rail under the washer fluis res (bumper off to get to it). ran the snow perf reservior where the oem washer fluid is, and used the low level sensor in the SP tank( drilled and installed)
also using the stage2 map setup i have my contold unit in my glovebox next to my electronic bost controller. also did the green LED activator light in my column guage pod, i have a dual pos so i have it facing the inside to if the wheel is turned i can still see it. got some boost juice and went to do some logs, but the onset adjustment pot is not working, it just spins. so as of now i am waiting for scott to contace me back from the IM i sent a few days ago..... i would like to get to the track before the end of the month using this. i did [email protected] without it, i should be 12s with it. a friend of mine that had an evo gained 6mph with alchy inj and good tune.
heres the pump mounted on the rail on the diamond plating
















heres the res








and the motor (something new with the stock mani, gave it a brused Al look, as opposed the the common polished look







) also hid all the wires that normally are on top of the fuel rail. cut and extended em to reach the inj. little bit cleaner i think



















_Modified by VW1990CORRADO at 12:07 PM 10-12-2006_


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (VW1990CORRADO)*

bump for some more to see


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## shotofgmplease (May 21, 2003)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

great write up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i might have to give this a shot in the future.


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## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

*Re: (shotofgmplease)*

Nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I am currently in the process of upgrading my Aquamist 1s to the 2d system which should be far better.
The 2d system is nice because it is linked to the fuel injector signal. The other thing which I like is you can vary the volume of water in 2 ways, 1 by changing the water jet size and 2 by changing the pressure in the pre-pressurized system.
There is something I wanted some opinions on.
If water injection reduces the intake air temp by 10+*C, I wonder how much the volume of air decreases with that temp drop? What I am getting at here is - if the volume of the air decreases enough, that would mean a drop in pressure (boost) as seen in the intake manifold. So....... would it be worth while to move the MAP sensor so that it measures boost pressure in the manifold?








Or.... would the higher pressure hot air coming in behind the cooler air simply keep it compressed?








This could be part of the reason why VW put the MAP sensor on the cold side of the IC as well as to make up for pressure drop caused by flow restrictions in the IC.
Just wanted to get others opinions on this http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## beachball6 (Apr 22, 2003)

I WISH I COULD TUNE MINE!!!!!!!!!!


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (SAGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAGTI* »_The other thing which I like is you can vary the volume of water in 2 ways, 1 by changing the water jet size and 2 by changing the pressure in the pre-pressurized system.

Isn't this possible with most any WAI kit?

_Quote »_If water injection reduces the intake air temp by 10+*C, I wonder how much the volume of air decreases with that temp drop?

This can be calculated, but the temperature drop comes with evaporation of the spray fluid. That volume of fluid adds mass to the intake charge, displaces air, and thusly increases boost pressure. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## lerak2598 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: (shotofgmplease)*

I think this thread helped alot of people decide to think seriously about WMI. 
Where can we get the 5l res. that was referenced?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (lerak2598)*

Karl, you can get the bigger resevoir directly from USRT or support one of our dealers: Induktion, PAG Parts, 20 Squared Tuning, etc. Thanks very much for the interest. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
The bottom line about water/alcohol injection is that it *works*. It is not new technology by any means. Rather, it has been around for ages and the VW tuning community is only now getting hardcore enough to need it. These systems were a really hard sell even just last year. Between Corky Bell's nonsensical advice and simple lack of familiarity in the VW scene, it wasn't really appreciated. It has taken years of hard work to push this into the mainstream.
My hat goes off to Mike who has done an excellent job at explaining his installation and results in simple language that all can appreciate. Hopefully, this will accelerate the migration to this tuning technique!


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## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Isn't this possible with most any WAI kit?
This can be calculated, but the temperature drop comes with evaporation of the spray fluid. That volume of fluid adds mass to the intake charge, displaces air, and thusly increases boost pressure. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I am sure other systems can vary pressure, I am not saying one is better than the other. When I got mine, Aquamist was the only one available over here. I am just upgrading so it does not make sense for me to go for a whole new system. The 2d system comes with adjustable water pressure up to 10 bar and different jet sizes.
I am just looking forward to being able to tune my setup as opposed to having an on/off 1s system. Sorry if I stepped on someones toes.
Anyway, so you are saying that the volume of water injected more than makes up for the volume lost due to cooling? Makes sense http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I just thought the volume lost in the cooling process might be more than the volume gained from the relatively small amount of water sprayed. I will def try and search for those calculations you are talking about http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: (SAGTI)*

Great install. I like the kit and the results that come from it. I would like to install the pump/reservoir in the rear of the car. Does the kit come with enough hose to let this happen? 
Is there any way to use the controller to only let this spray in the later part of 3rd gear and above? I dont need any more power in those gears because I spin like crazy. I guess I could just set the min boost higher like about 19psi and have the high boost at 28psi. 
I also heard rumors of the injection messing up the DBW TB? Anyone else heard this. If you install the nozzle after the TB, I have heard of no problems with it.


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## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

Skydaman, I have had my system for about 30,000 km with no problems with the DBW. That system was the worst case senario as well - as I was using the on/off type which meant too much water at lower rpm's.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (SAGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAGTI* »_I am just looking forward to being able to tune my setup as opposed to having an on/off 1s system. Sorry if I stepped on someones toes.

Oh, you certainly didn't step on mine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I just thought it was an odd comment.







As for the enhanced control, on/off is no good. Load-based control makes all the difference.

_Quote »_Anyway, so you are saying that the volume of water injected more than makes up for the volume lost due to cooling?

Ya, water expands about 1600x when it fully evaporates. Even if the pressure was lowered after the sensor, that'd produce a scavenging effect which would pull more air in.


----------



## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Glad not to cause friction!








Thanks for the info about the water expanding http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I also did some reading and it appears that the volume of air will change by about 3.6% per 10*C, so that is pretty small anyway, and based on what you say about water expanding and other stuff already mentioned, it would be a total waste of time moving the MAP sensor.
It was a worthwhile discusion anyway.


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (SAGTI)*

If no one noticed, this stuff + nitro + race gas added 33hp and 52lb-ft of torque on a 30degree cooler day.


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## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_If no one noticed, this stuff + nitro + race gas added 33hp and 52lb-ft of torque on a 30degree cooler day.









Not to be a buzzkill but race gas alone gives me a 41whp gain over pump. Add in the cooler temps and its even more. I believe the gains of this kit are not having to buy race gas and being able to run race gas programming on pump with WMI, which is a bit cheaper.
The advantage of the nitro is still up in the air. At his point I equate it to the octane boosters in the local parts store.


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

i talked with joe at http://www.axismotorsport.com about this set up. i currently am dyno'd at 218whp and 290wtq, am looking forward to seeing what it is capable of after this application.
stay tuned for the spring time dyno when it is intalled.
awesome write up.


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## Tetzuoe (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (BigAl03GTI)*

awww this is bad, now i want to run this setup.


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## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Confirm methanol also has a high amount of oxygen?
Also confirm methanol is perfectly safe for use with a WI system? You make me worry when you say how corrosive it is to the fuel system!
I have not put methanol in my aquamist system yet, just spraying 100% water, still gives good gains that way








What do you think of putting another small jet right after the turbo as mentioned in a previous post here?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (skydaman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skydaman* »_Not to be a buzzkill but race gas alone gives me a 41whp gain over pump.

Let's be clear. High octane (whether supplied in the form of racing fuel, water/alcohol injection, or "other") does not _make_ power. Rather, it safely permits a more aggressive fuel/ignition map that would otherwise be possible to run. Simply adding race gas will often produce a net loss of power because there's less potential energy available to release. Water/alcohol injection ("WAI" in my abbreviation book) does have a slight advantage here in that the pump gasoline's extra energy is kept, but is released over a longer period of time. Also, WAI radically lowers intake temperatures. Race fuel does not provide this advantage.
The point here is that Mike dyno'd with race gas + WAI which is redundant. *Don't be surprised if he gains torque by switching to pump fuel*.

_Quote »_Add in the cooler temps and its even more.

TRUE. The cooler ambient air temps are certainly beneficial. Practically speaking, there is no such thing as intake temps that are too low. Thus, while WAI may be critical for preserving output during the hot months, it is still very beneficial even when it is freezing outside. Heat reduction is heat reduction and the benefits of such are always there.

_Quote »_I believe the gains of this kit are not having to buy race gas and being able to run race gas programming on pump with WMI, which is a bit cheaper.

YES!

_Quote »_The advantage of the nitro is still up in the air. At this point I equate it to the octane boosters in the local parts store.


It really isn't up for dispute at all, actually. Nitromethane is a wickedly powerful compound and is run in top drag race classes for a damned good reason. Even small amounts of nitro increase octane significantly. Also, by weight it is composed 49.5% of oxygen. As we all know, dumping fuel into an engine is easy. It's getting the oxidizer in there that is the tuning challenge! Adding nitro makes the engine run leaner which is balanced by the extra fuel (alcohol). Detonation resistance is kept under control by the water.
*The challenge with nitromethane is delivery*. The stuff mixes poorly with gasoline. So, high concentrations are simply not feasible without the presence of alcohol. Concentrated raw methanol, however, eats fuel lines and seals, corrodes injectors, pumps, and such. So, throwing a big dose of that in the tank is out of the question. Nitro mixes even worse with water! The Nitro Booster that Mike ran is specially formulated to stay dissolved in a 50/50 mix of water and methanol. In fact, our tests show that even a 70/30 water/alky mix can be tolerated. Nitro Booster is a unique formula.
Commercial octane boosters poured into the fuel tank are very weak and produce relatively insignificant gains. On the contrary, a WAI system supplies highly concentrated chemicals directly into the intake. Dyno testing shows that up to a *10% gain* in engine output can be expected. By NO MEANS should Nitro Booster or straight nitromethane be thrown in the gas tank, though. That'd produce spectacularly catastrophic results. Nor should users pour more nitro in their WAI systems than is directed! This stuff is rocket fuel.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (SAGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAGTI* »_Confirm methanol also has a high amount of oxygen?

Confirmed.

_Quote »_Also confirm methanol is perfectly safe for use with a WI system? You make me worry when you say how corrosive it is to the fuel system!

Oh, I'll tell you straight up that methanol will tear up a stock fuel system. Racers routinely flush their entire systems from tank to injector (or carbs) with gasoline after a day of racing. Spraying the stuff into the intake tube bypasses the fuel system entirely, though. Thus, it isn't a risk at all.

_Quote »_What do you think of putting another small jet right after the turbo as mentioned in a previous post here?

You mean injecting before the intercooler? That is a definite no no. Let the intercooler pull as much heat as possible and introduce the WAI afterwards. Spraying right after the turbo reduces intercooler efficiency. Furthermore, you'll end up with a puddle of condensed fluid sloshing around.
_Note to avoid confusion: I deleted and reposted because I hate seeing the ugly "modified by" info at the bottom._


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## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Let's be clear. High octane (whether supplied in the form of racing fuel, water/alcohol injection, or "other") does not _make_ power. Rather, it safely permits a more aggressive fuel/ignition map that would otherwise be possible to run. 
 
True I do switch programs via the APR software. The race programs do have more aggressive maps and a slightly higher boost setting. 

How safe is this kit? To my knowledge it is run off the MAP sensor. I think I read that it has a safety setting if you run out of the mixture in the reservoir. Just the big "what if" still lingers in my thoughts.
I do like the fact of running the more aggresive maps on pump but can it be controlled via a switch or is boost controlled the only option?
Also my question of does it come with enough tubing to mount the reservoir in the rear of the car hasnt been answered.


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## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I meant is methanol 100% safe for the WI pump. pipes and jets? Or will it reduce the lifespan? Only asking as I am thinking of sourcing methanol from somewhere, but water alone actually works pretty well.
On the jet right after the turbo, I am talking a small 0.3mm jet. I fully understand your point, just got to thinking that the air at that point is very hot which would probably mean total vapourization of the small amount of water being injected at that point. This would mean 100% useage of the cooling effect of the water.
Would cooling the air down to 30ish *C in the intercooler actually cause that water to recondense? Just throwing ideas arround







. Would the denser air not cause the intercooler to actually be more efficient?
Just to be clear, I am not arguing, just ideas http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (skydaman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skydaman* »_How safe is this kit?.. I think I read that it has a safety setting if you run out of the mixture in the reservoir. Just the big "what if" still lingers in my thoughts.

Sky, I've never read a post of anybody fragging their engine because a WAI system failed to engage. However improbable the chances the possibility is certainly there, though. That's why we offer a flow meter-based failsafe box.

The "Safe Injection" unit powers up along with the controller and does absolutely nothing unless flow falls below the proper level. If that happens, the box sends a simple 12V pulse. This can be wired into a general purpose input on a standalone ECU or electronic boost controller so that boost is automatically purged. If an MBC is used, you'd wire the thing to operate a boost-purging solenoid that'd be spliced directly into the wastegate control lines. It's really easy and is cheap protection.

_Quote »_To my knowledge it is run off the MAP sensor.

There are two load-based control boxes. One of them has a built-in MAP sensor. The other references the MAF sensor's output voltage. The MAF version is best for quick-spooling small/stock turbos. The MAP controller is typically the choice for folks running big turbos and is the obvious choice for guys who've deleted their MAF sensors.

_Quote »_I do like the fact of running the more aggresive maps on pump but can it be controlled via a switch or is boost controlled the only option?

Running a secondary switch is as simple as wiring it in. Such a switch would cost less than $5 from Radio Shack. However, this would be a fairly pointless modification and would unnecessarily introduce a point of failure. The Stage 2 controllers are fancy switches to begin with. Keeping the WAI system deactivated is as simple as not boosting to a point where it is needed to protect the engine. Alternately, one could also set the WAI trigger point above the maximum expected level of boost.

_Quote »_Also my question of does it come with enough tubing to mount the reservoir in the rear of the car hasnt been answered.

Distance to the trunk varies from car to car, of course. We can certainly provide extra tubing to work in any application. The pump and tank must be close to each other, though.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (SAGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAGTI* »_I meant is methanol 100% safe for the WI pump. pipes and jets? Or will it reduce the lifespan?

Well, you've got an Aquamist pump. I think ERL says that up to a 50/50 mix is okay. USRT has experimented with 100% methanol in the Snow Performance pumps with no problems. (We also flushed the system shortly after the race event.) A 50/50 mix is typically the best compromise of tuning ease, detonation resistance, cooling, and TORQUE maximization. So, don't feel bad. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









_Quote »_On the jet right after the turbo, I am talking a small 0.3mm jet. I fully understand your point, just got to thinking that the air at that point is very hot which would probably mean total vapourization of the small amount of water being injected at that point. This would mean 100% useage of the cooling effect of the water.

No, it is a very bad idea. Consider that the intercooler cools air with air. If you cool the air going into the IC with the WAI, then the temperature differential is reduced. The IC thusly cools less. By this time, however, the intake charge is now laden with the spray fluid. It will not accept any more once the humidity has reached 100%. Thus, it is game over for cooling.

_Quote »_Just to be clear, I am not arguing, just ideas http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Hey, keep the technical questions and challenges flowing, man! This is how folks learn the real deal.











_Modified by [email protected] at 8:21 PM 10-20-2006_


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## SAGTI (May 14, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Cool bananas!







Thanks for the answers, makes good sense now. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So if I buy one of these kits & install it I'm good to go? No further tuning required or is it advisable to check A/F ratio on a dyno? 
Just trying to find some way to gain the power the IM was supposed to give me














.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (skydaman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skydaman* »_So if I buy one of these kits & install it I'm good to go? No further tuning required or is it advisable to check A/F ratio on a dyno?

This WAI kit + the APR 100 octane map should = rocket sauce. Wideband results will be thrown off big time by the water, though. That's because the stuff expands about 1600x by volume and "dilutes" the exhaust. So, I'd monitor the knock sensor activity if anything. Pretty much, though, this is a plug n' play operation for you in particular. (Just select the optimal trigger point and max load voltage.) APR has already produced the map. All you need to do is add the octane. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_This WAI kit + the APR 100 octane map should = rocket sauce. Wideband results will be thrown off big time by the water, though. That's because the stuff expands about 1600x by volume and "dilutes" the exhaust. So, I'd monitor the knock sensor activity if anything. Pretty much, though, this is a plug n' play operation for you in particular. (Just select the optimal trigger point and max load voltage.) APR has already produced the map. All you need to do is add the octane. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Sounds great, thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif !


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This WAI kit + the APR 100 octane map should = rocket sauce. APR has already produced the map. All you need to do is add the octane. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

want to bring this post back from the dead to ask a question about the statements like this i've been reading...
running APR 91 and 100 octane programs... easy ability to switch between the two... ko3s turbo on AWP engine... 
*the quick question:* when running the (APR or any vendor's, really) 100 octane program, how is the non-boost application handled in terms of "higher octane programming with lower octane in the gas tank"?
*the setup i'm hoping to create with more questions:*
i daily drive my car... my commute is ridiculously short and i'm rarely in boost... so, in those situations, i'd want to run my 91 program with 91 in the tank... to conserve juice, i'd like to even completely switch off the WAI setup... i understand it may not be necessary, as i won't be in boost, hence using the WAI, but switching off the whole system with a little switch in the cockpit would be a nice touch/feeling, i think... 
then, when switching over to the 100 octane program via the cruise control stalk and switching on the WAI system... i'd still like the daily drivability (because i'd potentially do this every weekend)... by that, i don't mean my short commute, but any other driving... 30 minutes on the road? switch it on because it's more enjoyable, etc... trackdays? need it on...








my confusion, though, is that the 100 octane programs are meant for 100 octane fuel... which is what i could set up the WAI to effectively simulate even with 91 octane in the tank... but the WAI really would only come on during boost / heavier load... what about all those moments when the WAI is not spraying, i've got 91 in the tank, and i'm not in boost or heavier boost? wouldn't that be bad because the programming is requesting 100 octane, but only getting 91 in those circumstances?








or is this something i'm over-worried about because i can change the a/f ratios per rev/load/boost with vagcom/lemmiwinks/vtune tweaks? is it just some extra messing with the trusty ol' laptop in the car? or should i look into a program swapping EBC, in addition to the laptop tweaks?
i've heard of people running constantly on 100 octane programs with WAI and pump gas, but i've yet to find in hours of searching an answer to the above... *thanks in advance for any help, guys! *


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (fazeShift)*

ttt for the evening/night crowd http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
(hoping that somebody will read my long-winded post and answer...







)


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (fazeShift)*

Put it in 100 octane mode...done. Running w/m allows you to run race gas programs on pump gas.
When you're not in boost, it doesn't matter if you're on 100 and have pump gas in the tank. And by using a progressive controller, you don't have to have an on/off switch. The controller IS the switch. As long as you're not in heavy boost (depending on what you set your controller at), you won't have to worry about the stuff spraying.


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_Put it in 100 octane mode...done. Running w/m allows you to run race gas programs on pump gas.
When you're not in boost, it doesn't matter if you're on 100 and have pump gas in the tank. And by using a progressive controller, you don't have to have an on/off switch. The controller IS the switch. As long as you're not in heavy boost (depending on what you set your controller at), you won't have to worry about the stuff spraying.

maybe i'm dumb or something, but you're not really answering my questions?








so, what you're saying is that it's fine to run 100 octane programs on 91 octane gas... because that's effectively what would happen with anything less than 8psi (as an example, based off of what i think i remember of your settings)... everything i've ever heard in the past says that is not good... 
as for the switch... again... i said that it's a mod for me... i know how a progressive controller / vac switch works, too... in laymans terms, it's like having cable internet... it's on all the time, but is only really active when i'm surfing the interweb... i'm thinking that's not what i want... i'd like to be able to have the option of "full off" whenever i want... and not just when the car is turned off








again... i know it's easy to do... i'm kind of asking "why" because it doesn't make sense... if the WAI injects only on boost... then it's only 100 octane in boost... so what about the rest of the time?


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

I normally run my GTRS on 91 octane without WAI with SPS3 timng set at 3, and i get some 4-6 deg of timing pull. With WAI I run T7 and I get 0 deg timing pull across the board.



_Modified by zemun2 at 6:08 PM 1-11-2007_


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_I normally run my GTRS on 91 octane without WAI with SPS3 timng set at 3, and i get some 4-6 deg of timing pull. With WAI I run T7 and I get 0 deg timing pull across the board.


what software is the T7 on? same BT Revo SPS3 set at 3? i'm having a hard time making the comparison and drawing a conclusion from it... mostly because i thought that the Revo was designed to run with 91 octane, anyways... but i guess that's what the timing setting is for, right?
guys, i'm really not trying to cause any grief... i'm just trying to get a good answer to what i'm really asking: why is it safe to run a 100 octane program on 91 octane gas with WAI when no injection / mixing is actually happening to get the gas to 100 octane?
thanks if you can help... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (fazeShift)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fazeShift* »_what software is the T7 on? same BT Revo SPS3 set at 3? i'm having a hard time making the comparison and drawing a conclusion from it... mostly because i thought that the Revo was designed to run with 91 octane, anyways... but i guess that's what the timing setting is for, right?
guys, i'm really not trying to cause any grief... i'm just trying to get a good answer to what i'm really asking: why is it safe to run a 100 octane program on 91 octane gas with WAI when no injection / mixing is actually happening to get the gas to 100 octane?
thanks if you can help... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

REVO BT software with two different timing settings.
T3 for 91 octane and T7 for water injection. I can go as high as T9 for pure 100 octane.
WAI acts as knock suppressant, thus allowing more timing or boost to be added.


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (zemun2)*

OH! i see... i was just mis-reading your post... thanks for the update!
so... how is your WAI set up? vaccuum pressure switch? is there a specific setting that you have the mix start to inject? or is it progressive from the very bottom (i.e. slow drip at 0-1psi to full flow at partial-max boost)?


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (fazeShift)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fazeShift* »_OH! i see... i was just mis-reading your post... thanks for the update!
so... how is your WAI set up? vaccuum pressure switch? is there a specific setting that you have the mix start to inject? or is it progressive from the very bottom (i.e. slow drip at 0-1psi to full flow at partial-max boost)?

I have progressive controller that starts spraying at 7 psi and goes full spray at 20 psi. I wish i can start spraying even later (10 psi), but dial only goes high as 8 psi (pressure tested agains accurate gauge and found that when dial set at 8 psi it actually start spraying at 7 psi)


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
I have progressive controller that starts spraying at 7 psi and goes full spray at 20 psi. I wish i can start spraying even later (10 psi), but dial only goes high as 8 psi (pressure tested agains accurate gauge and found that when dial set at 8 psi it actually start spraying at 7 psi)

okay... it seems that most people run a similar setup when the WAI is ordained by pressure...
so, i guess this is the answer to my question?
"at lower boost (i.e. lower than 10psi dependant on turbo), or in vac, the a/f ratio as it relates to octane is relatively unimportant with most programming... it's only under heavier load that octane and a/f become really important because you're pushing the engine, rather than feeding it what it needs..."
right?


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (fazeShift)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fazeShift* »_okay... it seems that most people run a similar setup when the WAI is ordained by pressure...
so, i guess this is the answer to my question?
"at lower boost (i.e. lower than 10psi dependant on turbo), or in vac, the a/f ratio as it relates to octane is relatively unimportant with most programming... it's only under heavier load that octane and a/f become really important because you're pushing the engine, rather than feeding it what it needs..."
right?









Yup, thats pretty much it... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also few thing to keep in mind if you want your WAI kit to last the long time.
1. Mount pump as low as you can so it gets it mix via gravity feed vs. suction feed.
2. Use more durable fittings most commonly found at hardware stores ( ACE has best selection)
3. Don't tap into the mild steel pipe, or any non stainless pipe because it will rust up and eventually clog up the nozzle and cause the pump to fail.


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## fazeShift (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
Yup, thats pretty much it... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also few thing to keep in mind if you want your WAI kit to last the long time.
1. Mount pump as low as you can so it gets it mix via gravity feed vs. suction feed.
2. Use more durable fittings most commonly found at hardware stores ( ACE has best selection)
3. Don't tap into the mild steel pipe, or any non stainless pipe because it will rust up and eventually clog up the nozzle and cause the pump to fail.

thanks, man... i really appreciate it... i'm not one of those "it works, so do it" type of people... when i do stuff, i need to know all the "whys" and "hows" to make sure i do it once and correctly...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
good notes, too... especially about the extra-durable fittings... probably wouldn't have thought of that until i actually spotted a leak...


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## hackataq (Jun 21, 2005)

For those running aftermarket throttle body hoses (like Forge/Samco or Eurojet), does the methanol have any corrosive effect on them? Most silicone hoses aren't supposed to be used with oil or fuel, but does a 50/50 (or less) mix, or possibly the atomization, prevent the methanol from accumulating on and eating away at the silicone?
I know Scott from USRT touched on this earlier in the thread, but I think it was only on methanol's effects on mild steel, as opposed to silicone...


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## Golf_kris (Dec 2, 2001)

*Re: (VW1990CORRADO)*

Did you tap the stock IC to TB hose? If so how'd you do it?


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (Golf_kris)*

I just used a piece of pipe and put it between the couplers. I welded on a steel nut to thread the nozzle into.


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## Golf_kris (Dec 2, 2001)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

Any other options since I don't know how to weld?


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_I just used a piece of pipe and put it between the couplers. I welded on a steel nut to thread the nozzle into.


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (Golf_kris)*

Um...you can just tap the metal and thread it in but the nozzle won't be very stable. You could just drill the pipe, source the nut and take it somewhere to have them weld it. I'm sure it'd be uber cheap for someone to weld a nut on.


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## Golf_kris (Dec 2, 2001)

*Re: (SAVwKO)*

Sounds like a plan, thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

are there larger tank options i'd missed in here? any way to get like a 2 - 3 gallon setup going in the rear hatch?


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## Golf_kris (Dec 2, 2001)

*Re: (screwball)*


_Quote, originally posted by *screwball* »_are there larger tank options i'd missed in here? any way to get like a 2 - 3 gallon setup going in the rear hatch?

7 quart reservoir http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=35


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## boosted1800cc (Feb 8, 2004)

*Re: (Golf_kris)*

has any one just tapped thier silicone hoses? i dont feel like cutting mine up and adding a piece of pipe in it, id rather drill a hole and pole it in...


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (boosted1800cc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boosted1800cc* »_has any one just tapped thier silicone hoses? i dont feel like cutting mine up and adding a piece of pipe in it, id rather drill a hole and pole it in...









Your answer is 1 click away..








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3013970


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## ryanvw (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (zemun2)*

my next mod great info on meth!!!


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## [email protected] (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (ryanvw)*

Currently I am having to upgrade my K03s (daily driver with 120k+) to a K04 because of turbo seals leaking on the k03s. Anyways would I benefit from WAI? I have a FMIC would it be more beneficial to go with a halo kit or WAI?


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## BluishGreen1.8T (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: (SMOOTH)*

i just had water/meth installed on my k03s and two days later the turbo blew up, but the meth wasnt pumping. so i just got the K04 kit on overnight from ECS and it will be on tomorrow and i cant get the GIAC flash until friday so i will let you know if it is beneficial to have on a K04.


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## 05GLI (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (fazeShift)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fazeShift* »_

guys, i'm really not trying to cause any grief... i'm just trying to get a good answer to what i'm really asking: why is it safe to run a 100 octane program on 91 octane gas with WAI when no injection / mixing is actually happening to get the gas to 100 octane?
thanks if you can help... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Dude, Nobody's going to be able to tell you if it safe for you to run your car in the 100 octane mode on 91 gas. Only you can figure that out for yourself by using vag-com and watching your timing pulled and other vital parts of your car. Just because it works for one person does'nt mean it's gonna work for the next. Some people are willing to run their cars on the edge and some are'nt. If you wanna play it safe, I would keep your timing pulled below 3 or 4 which might mean you would have to decrease timing to run your car in the 100 mode on 91 gas. And it all depends if its cold outside. Like at night if your drag racing, your probably not going to pull as much timing as you would during the day when it's hot. So, sorry to break the news to you, but you need to your homework just like everyone else


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## mkato13 (Dec 6, 2004)

looks like a nice write up...gonna be doing this myself once it warms up...damn snow and NJ temps


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## reflex 337 (Feb 18, 2007)

Read through the thread and couldnt find what size nozzle you used. Usrt asks when u order the kit. I got TBE, FMIC and giac xany suggestions? thanks


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (reflex 337)*

just use a single 175 or 225.


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## euroT_93446 (Jun 2, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Nice write up. In the process of installing my SP stage II kit now. What are you guys using for your +12 volt key on source for power?


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## IzVW (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (euroT_93446)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euroT_93446* »_Nice write up. In the process of installing my SP stage II kit now. What are you guys using for your +12 volt key on source for power?

I'm using the 75x terminal off the block that's located under the steering column.


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## euroT_93446 (Jun 2, 2008)

*Re: (IzVW)*

Thanks.. I was just under there and saw that. any info on the 87f/diesel to the right of that 75x? That also seems to put out +12 volts only when the car is running.


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## vluxbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Great thread with excellent info! I just ordered my meth kit from here...
http://www.autoanything.com/co....aspx
A buddy of mine is gonna help me install and tune everything, I can't wait to see what kind of gains I get from this mod! 
Is it true that running water/meth injection will actually help keep your engine clean? Someone I met at the local drag strip was telling me stories about how he tore his engine down to rebuild it and all the engine parts were immaculate because of the water/meth. Any truth to his story or was he just pulling my leg? thx


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## raddad (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (SAVwKO)*

Phenomenal review, thanks! I am also running the Snow Performance system on my '01 TT 225 with APR tuning, 93 and 100 octane modes. I echo the praise for Scott at USRT; he will sell you a spacer with the intake port for the nozzle that works nicely and makes the install simple.
I ran with the Porsche club yesterday at Miller Motorsports Park and really shocked some of those guys with the power I was putting down. (Guys with $75-100k cars don't like it when you beat them up with a $15k car!) I run 50/50 water/meth, get the methanol at our local drag racing track. In the 100 octane mode the additional power is outstanding, more than I get with 100 octane fuel, so it's saving me the $8/gal.!
My only question is which wire to use to switch to MAF instead of boost. No one seems to be able to tell me which one it is for my TT with the AMU engine, so if any of you know please reply!
I want to try MAF, but using boost is working fine. I have mine set up the same, comes in around 7-8, and my tuning peaks at 18-20. I can drive 250-300 miles on the street if I stay out of the boost; at the track I use up the 2.5L bottle in a 30 min. session. I plan to mount the big bottle next season.
I highly recommend this setup, it will blow you away. I have another ECU that we will custom tune next, will let you know how that works, but the APR 100 octane mode works great. And the guys at Snow Peroformance and USRT are great to help you get it set up.
Also, if you live in Utah, Hans and Allan at Utah Imports do a great job of getting all installed and running nicely. They do a phenomenal job with my car, period.
Thanks!


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## kalm10 (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (raddad)*

hey i was looking around for some low cost but effective performance parts until i had enought for a stage 1 turbo kit. will this snow performance stage 1 boost kit be affective in my stock 97 gti 2.0 ???


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## GoldGolf2.0 (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (kalm10)*

Snow performance kits will benefit even a stock car. I am not saying that it should be your first mod but it wouldn't hurt. Below is a link to a reputable store that is having some great deals right now. http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Ultimate-CC


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## veedubbinn (Jan 25, 2009)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (GoldGolf2.0)*

anyone ever look into the AEM kits? they offer a safety cut off switch when it senses a failure it cuts the system off or no fluid. personally, i think im going with AEM.


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## GoldGolf2.0 (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (veedubbinn)*

they are nice but i really prefer the snow performance kits, there are so many little extras that you get with them at no additional cost...


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## HSTuning (Jul 1, 2009)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* (GoldGolf2.0)*

We've actually started using Labonte Motorsport kits in the past 5 months, as they not only have better parts (ie...pump, nozzles, install adapters), but they're priced at a much more affordable level than the Snow kits. Snow continues to raise their pricing for reasons beyond my understanding, yet companies like Labonte and Devil's Own are still able to sell complete kits for roughly $100 less. Compared the Devil's Own the Labonte kit comes with a better pump out of the box (unless they've changed their standard) and a cut-off solenoid, which reacts quicker than a checkvalve rated at x psi. Not to mention the Labonte controller is more slim looking at it's control face than DO, and therefore you can mount it in stealthy locations in the car like glovebox, bottom of steering column panel, etc.
Been working on a post on Labonte stuff just need to finish it up a bit and post some more complete info. Anyone interested in a kit shoot me a p/m.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: *Snow Performance Water Methanol Injection! Install, Test & Tune!* ([email protected])*

Good stuff Mike.. Nice to see someone brought this back from the Dead http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I hope to see a nice thread like your famous for on the Labonte Kit







Do Werk Son


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We've actually started using Labonte Motorsport kits in the past 5 months, as they not only have better parts (ie...pump, nozzles, install adapters), but they're priced at a much more affordable level than the Snow kits. Snow continues to raise their pricing for reasons beyond my understanding, yet companies like Labonte and Devil's Own are still able to sell complete kits for roughly $100 less. Compared the Devil's Own the Labonte kit comes with a better pump out of the box (unless they've changed their standard) and a cut-off solenoid, which reacts quicker than a checkvalve rated at x psi. Not to mention the Labonte controller is more slim looking at it's control face than DO, and therefore you can mount it in stealthy locations in the car like glovebox, bottom of steering column panel, etc.
Been working on a post on Labonte stuff just need to finish it up a bit and post some more complete info. Anyone interested in a kit shoot me a p/m.

snow and labonte seem to go tit for tat with each other...aside from the $100 price difference...and a 220psi rated pump (snow) vs a 250psi rated pump (LB) everything else seems the same...i'd love to get ahold of LB's stg3 controller to see how it compares to the simplicity of the snow's...


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## zaberayx (Oct 31, 2004)

I thought Labonte did the kits for snow..


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## HSTuning (Jul 1, 2009)

*Re: (zaberayx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zaberayx* »_I thought Labonte did the kits for snow..

He did. He was the engineer, snow was the marketing company. Hence, why we've made our decision.


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## GoldGolf2.0 (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (zaberayx)*

Labonte was a former employee of snow performance...they are no longer the same, yes there is some overlap of products but take a look at the difference in stage3 kits and you will see why I still support snow performance...snows prices actually have been coming down which has been great and they even have a 30 dollar rebate going on right now...


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## SnowTech.4 (Oct 23, 2009)

Two points to make:
1) Snow Performance has dropped prices on many of its parts and systems this year. I am not on here to advertise, so I will simply suggest that people do their own research rather than go by third party accounts. We have not increased prices in a long time.
2) The Snow Performance pump is called the SHO pump. If we wanted to we could call it a 300 pump since it will easily put out that much 
pressure even on our largest nozzle. But we don't do that. Frankly naming a pump based on a pressure it can theoretically make with the regulator turned up beyond what it's set to at the factory is a bit thin. Aquatec (the manufacturer of all these units) is comfortable with around 200 psig from them unless they have the double seal, which the SHO pump does. The SHO pump also features high temperature internals and a heat sink specifically so that it can handle the higher pressures and duty cycles if people so choose. 
Again, I am not here to advertise, as we have top notch vendors on this forum who sell our product and we wish to support them. Just providing information.


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## GarbatyA4 (Mar 13, 2008)

quick question:
I have Unitronics stage 1.
Can you run W/M injection on a 91octane map and increase timing and boost till you hit a little bit of timing pull?
I don't have a fully loaded APR ecu like most of you.
Please help me as I'm going to buy a kit for christmas


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*

yes


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## matty675 (Oct 2, 2011)

I would like to voice one complaint about the snow performance kit- It no longer comes with an NPT fitting for mounting the nozzle in a metal pipe. 

Only some 10mmx1.0 hex nuts will fit onto the nozzle, so a 1/8-27 NPT fitting is almost indispensible. They are hard to find, and excluding an essential item like that is not cool!

A note on the LED: I went to radioshack and purchased a 1/4 watt 330 ohm resistor and a 300 mcd 5mm blue LED to use in place of the green one. Simply wire the resitor onto either side of the LED (longer side is always positive) The 2600 mcd super bright blue LED is unnecessary and will be VERY annoying without the proper resistor.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Forget the bung and use a 1/8"-27 NPT tap :thumbup:


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

thanks for the write up
i had the maf sensor controller, but now i am mafless so been looking into the map sensor set up. thank you:beer:


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