# HALL Distributor Setup, MS2Extra, Paul or VCG help!



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

I'm trying to setup my ignition on my new engine, and I am having a ***** of a time getting it setup right in MegaTune/TunerStudio... the "manual" is only leaving me frustrated, I follow the instructions and it isn't getting me anywhere. Engine does run (poorly) if I "don't follow the manual" for setup. 
I don't know if either of you have experimented with "Trigger Return", treats the HALL sender as a VR Trigger wheel. It is supposed to give more accurate timing than just "Basic Trigger"
MSExtra Manual page: http://www.msextra.com/ms2extr...t.htm
The engine is an ealry Mk2 Golf 1.8, with late Digifant Distributor
MS2Extra 2.1.0 Release, 3.57 SMD board, proper pullup resistor, using VW ignition module for coil
Here is the "diagram" I have of my timing:








I plug in the numbers, and it just doesn't want to work








Edit... I have run this exact same MS setup (but different distributor) on another engine... so the wiring, ignition, and fuel system are known good. The trigger degrees and such are different so I can't use my old MSQ for ignition settings
(I'll post a capture of the MT values I have when I get home from work)


_Modified by Southcross at 1:23 PM 9-17-2009_


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

ok.. to put it more simply, is anyone running MS2Extra using a Digifant Distributor for ignition?


----------



## Shawn B (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Why are you using the trigger return instead of what has worked before (basic trigger)?
I guess I am using MS1 and we are talking about the trigger angle.
Are you timing the motor correctly?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

using MS2Extra, version 2.1.0 release. MS2Extra will work as basic trigger, or for added accuracy, in trigger return (treats the distributor as a 4-tooth VR trigger wheel). I would use use my old "Basic Trigger" MSQ, but the distributor is different (between the 3A distributor and Digifant 1.8L distributor the HALL windows are vastly different). 
I am _trying_ to determine if I have the motor timed correctly.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: HALL Distributor Setup, MS2Extra, Paul or VCG help! (Southcross)*

i dont know the ms2e menu options off the top of my head... and im not in front of my computer... but ill check this out again at the shop


----------



## Shawn B (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: HALL Distributor Setup, MS2Extra, Paul or VCG help! (ValveCoverGasket)*

Still not sure what exactly you are trying to do? Trigger windows are different? I've used the digifant distributor shaft (from a G60) 4 window in the ABA distributor housing and I am currently using the center shaft and 4 window from a 1.8L CL throttle body injected motor in an ABA housing. You should be able to set trigger angle like you normally would and be fine.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: HALL Distributor Setup, MS2Extra, Paul or VCG help! (Shawn B)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shawn B* »_Still not sure what exactly you are trying to do? 

much of the verbage has changed from ms1e to ms2e... so its not quite as straightforward to transfer setups over.
having said that i completely forgot to look last night...


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

how about sharing your setup for the G60 distributor? that might go in the right direction regardless if you don't know what I'm trying to do








_Quote, originally posted by *Shawn B* »_Still not sure what exactly you are trying to do? ... I've used the digifant distributor shaft (from a G60) 4 window


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

for ms1e stuff theres a couple 8v and 16v files posted in the downloads section on spitfireefi if youre just looking for how to set up a distributor...


----------



## Shawn B (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (ValveCoverGasket)*

The G60/ABA distributor is the same as the 1.8cl/ABA distributor msq I am using now I think.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Shawn B)*

if you have the 4 window setup swapped into your aba dist, then yes theyre the same http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I'm having troubles trying to put into words how this isn't helping


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

troubleshooting a "no-run", when it ran on an old engine, is frustraiting... I believe it to be a timing issue, could be meqasquirt settings, could be something "failed" in the year the car sat. Since I was unable to get proper timing at idle, that leads be directly to "timing" and that something isn't set right with my Distributor and/or MegaSquirt Values
maybe step by step and pictures will help, maybe I'll see what I'm missing...
Pictures (ignore the values in the screen captures):








(example of settings used for Trigger Return)








Timing setup based on MS2Extra manual
step 1. turn engine to TDC
2. install Distributor, rotor pointing at #1
3. turn engine to cranking advance location (lets use 8 degrees BTDC)
4. turn on MS2 middle LED ignition indicator
5. turn distributor to match the "Cranking" position, adjust until the LED indicator just turns off, lock down
_(and this is where it doesn't seem to work)_
6. turn engine backwards, LED comes on, turn until LED turns off again... this is trigger angle (BTDC)
7. total degrees LED is on is return angle (Did this on the Bench, 83 degrees... *this I am 90% sure this is my problem*)
maybe someone can share how they setup their timing and their values, and maybe I'll see what I'm missing...


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

so... 4 hours of different combinations of Rising Edge/Falling Edge... and a bazillions different itterations of trigger angles... Running Fixed angle 10*, I can either get the car to run either ADC (best was a zero degrees advance) or 40 degrees of advance (down from 50* at first). No matter how much I change the trigger angle I can't get it to 10 degrees.
can _anyone_ help point me in the right direction?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Try changing it to rising edge and see if that works.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Try changing it to rising edge and see if that works.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Danke!
now, to figure out trigger angle... if my crank marks are correct, with the distributor locked at 10 degrees, the trigger comes at 100 degrees (between 90-100*). What I can't seem to figure out is why am I getting such a high number??


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I may have discovered a caveat in the MS2Extra method of timing... based on information in the manual, and the physical construction of the VW Digifant Distributor. From the manual, going in reverse rotation of the Hall it is expecting to see a "Vane" right at TDC (or cranking location), but in reverse rotation on the VW it sees a Window... if the MS2Extra firmware only triggers off the Vane edge, it will never be in correct phase to fire anything but 40-50 or so degrees BTDC
don't know yet, just a theory.... I'm waiting for feedback on the MSExtra forums


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

confirmed visually... the VW distributor is exactly backwards to the MS2Extra manual:


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Confirmed that vane edge doesn't matter as you can switch "Trigger" method... I hate the MegaSquirt manuals








ok... tried something completely different (and probably more correct







) to get my data
Rising Edge
Middle LED on
Using a Magnetic Angle Gauge stuck to my Camshaft bolt
I determined by happenstance that the bolt on my Camshaft timing gear is exactly 7 degrees from level
Cam rotation = 1/2 Crank
I determined that:
TDC = 7* (7-7=0)
10 BTDC = 12* (12-7=5, 5x2 = *10* so far so good on the math) *Cranking*
LED Turned off at 45* (45-7=38, 38x2=*76*) *Trigger* (I think this is where my numbers went wrong)
so assuming that I haven't gone horribly wrong this time...
Cranking = 10*
Trigger = 76*
Return = 66* (76-10)








edit... and the gas tank is nearly empty










_Modified by Southcross at 3:24 PM 9-27-2009_


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I just killed two car batteries... and cut the mother****ing hell out of my hand. Could you or some please talk me through setting up and engine that was assembled from scratch (not some joe-schmoe's megasquirt install on a stock engine). I went from poorly running engine on "guessed settings", to no or sporadic spark with the above setup... I'm running on such little patience for an engine that I could have running and tuned with CIS in 20 ****ing minutes. I'm about ready to throw in the towel on MegaSquirt, I'm out of time and money to throw a bunch of ****ing money on all new ignition wheels and BS to do what a ****ing 1979 Rabbit can do... ****ing make spark
here is everything, even maybe what I wouldn't make a difference...
MegaSquirt 2 v 3.57 SMD board
MAP Daddy
1k Pull up on ignition input (known working with distributor setup) on desginated v3.57 pads
Digifant Distributor
VW ignition module (known working with distributor setup)
Now cranking I see an even pulse and constant RPM, no spark... before spark would ONLY happen at TDC or 50* advance... not 10* on fixed advance no matter what I would try
GX Golf 1.8L 9:1 compression (the only thing not done to it are a bearing/crank/rod/piston overhaul)
Late Golf GTI 8v head fully rebuilt
AutoTech 270
HD Springs
New valves
Ti Retainers
330cc low Z injectors
TT adjustable cam gear
TT light intermediate gear
Garret (AiResearch) T3 ar45
ARP hardware everywhere
Assume you have upwards of $6k into the engine, electronics, etc... hand assembled the engine, installed the Distributor like Bentley Spec... then try and follow the "MS Manual" to setup the ignition... and you have 12 days until the last car show of the year (9 days till the race track closes for the season)


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Switch back to basic trigger. Play with dizzy/trigger angle to get car idling. Set timing to fixed. Move trigger angle and/or dizzy to sync. Set back to map timing.
I have never had the above not work on a distro car.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I used basic trigger from the get'go... I tried trigger angles starting from 76 (66, 56, 46, 36 and up 86, 96, 106) and I couldn't get squat for a spark anywhere TDC (if at all)... BUT, I have a good solid constant RPM and trigger input using TS. I found that briefly at below 36 degrees I could get consistant spark, but at such a high-advance the engine ran backwards... so obvious that the trigger was way way too low


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Rotor button points to/near the notch on the dizzy at tdc, and the #1 wire is there?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

yep, just like every other VW engine I've setup (mine and and other peoples)... I've even "double checked" timing/TDC/Etc so many time now...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Just noticed you're on a 3.57, are you using the opto circuit or the vr circuit for conditioning? List your jumpers.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

oi... wish I had it here to check, I want to say Opto... but that is just what sticks in my mind


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

I'm starting to question if maybe I don't have the settings for the VW ignition module correct, or if the module has somehow failed... too many damn things to go wrong








I hate having to be at work...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Normally the spark output should be non inverted if you're using a VW module, though that's off the LED or fidle circuit not right off the processor pin. You can try jumpering one of the led pads to your spark pin and seeing if that works as well.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Normally the spark output should be non inverted if you're using a VW module

"non inverted"? i.e. "Going Low (Normal)"?








edit...
"other options"










_Modified by Southcross at 7:28 PM 9-29-2009_


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Just noticed you're on a 3.57, are you using the opto circuit or the vr circuit for conditioning? List your jumpers.


Jumper Block: J1
Pins 1&2
Jumper Block: JP1
Pins 2&3
XG1 & XG2 are jumpered


_Modified by Southcross at 7:44 PM 9-29-2009_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

That's all right. You might want to change to LED spark output, and use Pad1 off the led pads to the output pin and see if that works. Could be something funny driving that ignition module direct from the processor.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_That's all right. You might want to change to LED spark output, and use Pad1 off the led pads to the output pin and see if that works. Could be something funny driving that ignition module direct from the processor. 


I posted a Q on the MSExtra boards... there is Pad1 (which has a 1k pull-up resistor) and the R26, both are on the same "circuit" but the MS manual says to solder to the R26 resistor for SparkA output?
oh... and just for giggles, I'm re-researching from scratch (i.e. following the manual for initial setup of things like injectors, etc)... I have been re-using my old PWM settings for my injectors, from my old setup... but _just_ in case they were wrong and somehow are affecting my ability to start/run the engine (I'll re-tune the PWM settings after the engine idles, just like the manual says LOL)
edit...
come to think of it, maybe the pullup is what I need. Normally the Ign module would see 1.xxx voltage from the HALL seeing the vane, then ground "low" with the shutter triggering the module... maybe without the pull-up there isnt' enough Vane +V to put the module into "ready" when its pulled low for firing










_Modified by Southcross at 1:23 PM 10-1-2009_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

All the boards I've done I use the PAD locations for VW ignition modules (7 Pin, 3pin ABA, coil and distro VR6), it has the 1k pullup to 5v and works perfectly. I use the same circuit on V3's handbuilt as well. If use that circuit make sure you have the ign output non-inverted. 
Totally possible that having no pullup is the problem, I've only driven VB's and BIPs straight from the processor, never an ignition module directly (VW at least).


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Totally possible that having no pullup is the problem, I've only driven VB's and BIPs straight from the processor, never an ignition module directly (VW at least).


I've been trying to keep the board modifications to bare minimum (MapDaddy currently, Boost and Launch control are next)... I had this fear that I would have to try and solder to those ity-bity surface mounts, seeing now that it has a Pad, bah... where the heck is my soldering gun


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I had a harder time getting my my MS out of its case than soldering in the new jumper wire... love it, just on the Stim, I noticed that the D14 LED makes an AWESOME spark indicator... 
at Zero RPM the D14 LED is solid, at Cranking speed you can clearly see the LED blinking and goes "solid looking" over 1k rpms... great visual indicator, if the LED blinks its sending a "Fire" signal.
This evening will be spent "Testing" all of my spare ignition modules on my Rabbit, looking for bad ones... starting with the one currently on the car.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

well, ran out time today to try starting the car tonight... but I confirmed the IGN module is indeed good by using it on my Rabbit, I checked all of my underhood wiring connections/wire condition/etc... and just for giggles re-built the IGN module ground
*crossing fingers for tomorrow*


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

OMFG... it RUNS!








and I'm going to document my settings right now
























had some severe fueling issues to figure out, at first I was getting the engine to run, but only on one cylinder... pulled the plugs, #1 dry and #2-4 were black and gooey.... thought oil, till I smelled them... carbon and a **** ton of gasoline, dried/cleaned them off and installed them... fired right up, super rich but it runs







as it sits right now, it fires right up and still runs a touch rich, but its drivable








Paul, I can't come up with a good way to than you








edit.. I should point out, that my timing falls within 1 degree of timing (slightly to the low side??), such a small variance that I am not concerned in the slightest little bit. I will be keeping "basic trigger" for a while, its running so well I'm not going to jinx it LOL Now I'm just dealing with a crappy serial port on my Laptop










_Modified by Southcross at 6:34 PM 10-3-2009_


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

Southcross said:


>


Seven years later.... 

chasin' spark again :banghead:

bumping so I can find my old thread again


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Oh my, did you lose it totally or just some of it?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Oh my, did you lose it totally or just some of it?


well... yes? LOL 
As it turned out.... when I had my flywheel lightened they cut all the timing marks off, and never stamped new ones on it... 
AND somehow my timing belt was loose when it was installed, so there was no finding TDC without doing it the hard way (screw driver through the sparkplug hole) :banghead:

plus my old fuel pump must have been dieing for a long time, since installing a new one it started running super rich/miss-firing/exhaust backfires/etc... 

more or less I've been trying to work backwards, when in reality I guess I should have been "redoing" everything


----------

