# Best motorbike ITB’s to use?



## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

Ill be attempting to create a 16v with ITB’s but my main concern using motorbike ITB’s is the spacing between the cylinders. Are there any motorbikes that have spacing close to a 16v application or ones that you can adjust?
Thanks


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## benny_mech (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (Jetta90WB)*

Suzuki GSXR 750, 1000, and 1300 (Hayabusa) ITB's up to '02 are the best for altering the spacing. In '03 they started to pair them up. Spacing is 88mm FYI on the 16V head.


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## ditchdigger (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (benny_mech)*

I ended up spacing my 750's exactly 5/16" at each joint. Fits my mani just great


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

When you spaced the ITB's out, did you have to build anything to link the throttle linkages?


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## ditchdigger (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Jetta90WB)*

I welded an extension to each of the tabs and ground them smooth.


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: (ditchdigger)*

I cant tell for sure, but do these look the same?


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (Jetta90WB)*

I believe those are the newer style units which are harder to modify. Someone please correct me if im wrong.

-Chris


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## ditchdigger (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Jetta90WB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jetta90WB* »_I cant tell for sure, but do these look the same?


They look just like the ones I used. the way I dealt with the secondary butterflies was to remove them and tap the holes to 5/16" 18 but not all the way through. I then used a 1/4" long 5/16" set screw into my newly threaded hole, a little loctite ensures that they aint comin' out. On the same not I used a 1/8" pipe tap on the holes for the bike injectors and filled them with pipe plugs.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

the gsxr1000 ones i got look like the ones pictured above
i am lovin them so far (as i start to work with them)


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## scirocco25 (Aug 22, 2004)

*Re: (ditchdigger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ditchdigger* »_They look just like the ones I used. the way I dealt with the secondary butterflies was to remove them and tap the holes to 5/16" 18 but not all the way through. I then used a 1/4" long 5/16" set screw into my newly threaded hole, a little loctite ensures that they aint comin' out. On the same not I used a 1/8" pipe tap on the holes for the bike injectors and filled them with pipe plugs.








Works pretty nice right?


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

Also what injectors are you using with these ITB's? Are you using the stock ones or will generic bosch fit into these ports?
Also what do you think about these ones?










_Modified by Jetta90WB at 4:52 PM 12-16-2005_


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## benny_mech (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (Jetta90WB)*

Most people hack off the stock lower manifold and attach the ITB's to that.
















If you then unscrew the CIS injector cups (17mm Allen, I think), the Digifant injector cups (10mm Allen) will thread into the existing injector holes. They accept Bosch style injectors. Since the EFI injectors are far shorter than the CIS ones, I removed some material from around the injector holes on the cylinnder head side of the manifold.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

*Re: (benny_mech)*

thats my plan... i got my silicone adapters in today...
never got a straight answer on gsxr1000 injector flow rates, but someone said they flow like 315cc, so i guess they would work
but i am gonna plug the holes and use my crossflow rail with digi2 injectors for now.


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## benny_mech (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (urogolf)*

315 sounds high. Do you know what pressure that was at? Check out these guys for tons of good injector info. 
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.htm
If you don't plan on making more hp than the bike, you could use the bike's injectors. The claimed hp for the GSXR 1000 is 175, which gives a recommended injector size of 288cc using the above calculator. I wouldn't be surprised if the duty cycle was a little higher than 80% though. 
Edit: According to this:
http://www.loam.org/vw/Vanagon...iFant/
Digi injectors only flow 174cc/min. 


_Modified by benny_mech at 5:34 PM 12-16-2005_


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## Rat4Life (Oct 14, 2004)

if i use bike trottle bodies, do i have to get stand alone for ignition and fuel? 
or there is a way to use oem ecu?


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## psykokid (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (russiandub)*

Digi 2 injectors may flow that low number, but Digi 1 injectors run at about 260cc per min.. lots of digi 1 guys get the ford red tops which pump out 310cc per min as a safety net expecially with a smaller pulley on the charger


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (russiandub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *russiandub* »_if i use bike trottle bodies, do i have to get stand alone for ignition and fuel? 
or there is a way to use oem ecu?

for your 93 gl? there is a way, im trying to figure it out a bit now to make it work right. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (Jetta90WB)*

benny_mech: i've seen many setups like the one you pictured, but my concern is the short runner length. Even with velocity stacks, the runner length is still shorter than optimum for the 7500rpm (give or take depending on budget) of most 16v's. I have been tossing the idea around to hack off the top of the intake manifold and put the throttle bodies over the valve cover, but that then leaves the filters over the headers. This isn't a problem when under way, but the heat soak would be huge when sitting in traffic or a staging area. Maybe a heat shield? I have been looking around for solutions people are using for this issue. Anyone here seen anything else?
Also, from what I remember, the gixxer 750 injectors that came with my throttle bodies flow 19lb/hr. They are off a '98 750, and the throttle bodies are a very easy style to work with. I just have to make one new bracket, weld the actuating arm extensions on, and away I go.


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## broccom (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (kalvinlk)*

Are you guys sure the GSX 750 injectors can be used ?? I would like to hear fron someone who has actually done it. 
What about the fuel return line ??
I was planning on using a custom fuel rail and bosch injectors like some others on the forum. 
I am using an SDS and would to use the GSX injector I am just worried that they are not compatible.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

*Re: (urogolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *urogolf* »_t....... but i am gonna plug the injector holes and use my crossflow rail with digi2 injectors for now.

new plan... use those holes for vacuum feed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## benny_mech (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (kalvinlk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kalvinlk* »_benny_mech: i've seen many setups like the one you pictured, but my concern is the short runner length.

That's true, the runner length is far from optimal. My setup is intended for rallycross though, and I believe throttle response is more important in that application. I guess it depends on what you are using it for. 
kalvinlk: You could fab a hood scoop and make an airbox/heat shield of sorts. It could even be sort of a 'ram air' at speed. I think it'd have to be pretty well sealed to keep out the heat, and keep in the air cramming its way into the intakes.


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (benny_mech)*

Exactly. I am running my scirocco as a daily driver, so i want to retain/add as much torque as I can. I was considering the hood scoop as well, and the heat shield should protect against short sessions idling in traffic. I guess there's no way to know until I try, I'll post some before/after numbers for intake air temps, in a few months when I finish saving up for rings/pistons and get this project completed.


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: (benny_mech)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benny_mech* »_Most people hack off the stock lower manifold and attach the ITB's to that.
















If you then unscrew the CIS injector cups (17mm Allen, I think), the Digifant injector cups (10mm Allen) will thread into the existing injector holes. They accept Bosch style injectors. Since the EFI injectors are far shorter than the CIS ones, I removed some material from around the injector holes on the cylinnder head side of the manifold.









They look good man! Keep posting with more pics and updates


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## IceBoy (Mar 28, 2003)

honda super blackbird bodiess (mine were from a 2001 XX i believe) are absolutely perfectly spaced as standard for a vw 16v head. Mine also came with a map seonsor, tps, perfect fuel rail and fpr, and injectors good for 250hp. They only cost me about 90 great britain pounds (cheaper than all the gsxr ones were going for by a long way).


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## NefariousVW (May 21, 2002)

*Re: (Jetta90WB)*

*<2003 GSXR 750 ITB's*








*2003+ GSXR 750 ITB's*








For reference


_Modified by Nefarious1.8t at 8:16 AM 1-20-2006_


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: (Nefarious1.8t)*

I used GSXR750 bodies and spaced then 8mm, fuel rail is from 1.8T.


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*

Does anyyony have any power numbers for thier bike body setups. Mines going on a stock 2.0l ABF and would like to know what to exspect.


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## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*

how do you prevent that fuel rail from poping up under fuel pressure?


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*

If you look closely you can see i've welded tags on the outer 2 runners and bolted to that.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

awesome


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## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*

very nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NefariousVW (May 21, 2002)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*

Side note:
How are the GSXR throttle bodies held in place when used on the bike?


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iwanaturbo* »_I used GSXR750 bodies and spaced then 8mm, fuel rail is from 1.8T.

















Wow that looks great! Good idea on using the 1.8T rail too!
I should be ordering my ITB setup soon and get started on them (gives me something to do during college







)


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## HisMajesty (Sep 4, 2000)

*Re: (Nefarious1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nefarious1.8t* »_Side note:
How are the GSXR throttle bodies held in place when used on the bike?

As far as I know when used on the bike they are just connected with the silicone/rubber couplers.


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (HisMajesty)*

is there a difference between the gsxr 750, 1000, or 1300 ITB's 
are the ones off the larger bikes larger? or are they the same thing on difference sized motors??
thanks


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iwanaturbo* »_I used GSXR750 bodies and spaced then 8mm, fuel rail is from 1.8T.


















Nice work,
So thats a cut down 16V intake with silicon / rubber couplers?


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

Yes it's a cut down 50mm stock manifold with stubs welded on, think you can do it with out welding stubs on but i wanted to keep the silicon hoses short to stop the bodies from moving around.


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (kcbmxer)*

they have different sizes, a little googling will get you the inlet/outlet sizes for different models and years.
As far as which years to get, it's a toss up. Some of the newer ones are tapered, meaning a large inlet with a smaller outlet. Helps produce a higher intake air velocity, so torque is improved. I got a set of '98 GSXR 750's, and they have a 48mm inlet, 40mm outlet. The main benefit I got from using older bodies were they went for much cheaper than the newer ones ($60 bucks shipped to my door, ebay) and they are easier to work with. No secondary butterflies to remove, and I just had a bracket laser cut to space them out the proper length. I made a couple extras in case someone wants one. They are made out of aluminum; I will post pics when I pick them up.


_Modified by kalvinlk at 3:24 PM 2-2-2006_


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*

if im running a 1.8L thats over twice as much displacement as a 750 steetbike, so wouldnt the throttle bodies need to be much larger, even the ones off of the 1100 still dont match the displacment. I know theres something im missing here, can someone bridge the gap for me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

if you add together the area from all 4 throttle plates it would be much larger than any single vw throttle body you could use, and the gain is also from the runers being so short


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iwanaturbo* »_Yes it's a cut down 50mm stock manifold with stubs welded on, think you can do it with out welding stubs on but i wanted to keep the silicon hoses short to stop the bodies from moving around.

With your 1.8t fuel rail what injectors did you use? Will stock VW (such as digi II or G60) work also (or even Bosch injectors)? And do they fit the digi injector caps that go into the intake manifold?


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (urogolf)*

It's different even from that: You cannot simply add together the four butterfly sizes and get one large one. For example, I have four ITB's with 40mm butterflies each, that does not mean it's equivelent to a single 160mm throttle body. If this was the case, cracking the throttle to 10% open or so would mean I was pretty much full throttled!
Follow this link, and about 3/4 the way down the page there is a throttle body size calculator. Search the page for "throttle bores" and you will get right to it. Kinda interesting to play with, and it will show you why you do not need huge ITB throttle bodies.
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm
As far as the bikes go, they are flowing air to support between 150 and 180 hp at 15,500rpms. So, they are goign to flow more than enough air to support your application


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*

you cut down a 50mm manifold? Sure it's not a 40 or 42mm version? Ouch, coulda sold it for $400 or so on ebay and had money leftover from switching to ITB's!


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kalvinlk* »_
As far as the bikes go, they are flowing air to support between 150 and 180 hp at 15,500rpms. So, they are goign to flow more than enough air to support your application









thats the piece of the puzzle i was missing, i realize that you cant just add the size of the butterflies, its the area they ocupy and the amount of air that flows threw them.
the thing that had me stumped was why the bikes could use such large throttle bodies for there smaller motor. Didnt give the rpms a thought. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kalvinlk* »_you cut down a 50mm manifold? Sure it's not a 40 or 42mm version? Ouch, coulda sold it for $400 or so on ebay and had money leftover from switching to ITB's!

In the UK most valver manifolds are 50mm, if some one wants one just PM me.








The 1.8T fuel rail will take the bosch type injectors, i'm using injectors out of a Pug 405 turbo which will flow anough fuel for 200hp. I used digifant injector bosses in the 16v manifold.
Got my ECU the other day, all i need to do now is put it in a car.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kalvinlk* »_It's different even from that: You cannot simply add together the four butterfly sizes and get one large one. For example, I have four ITB's with 40mm butterflies each, that does not mean it's equivelent to a single 160mm throttle body. 

correct!
however what i was referring to was the AREA that each throttle plate takes up. 
the area that 4 40 mm throttle plates takes up is substantially less than than 1 160mm as you pointed out in your example, but substantially more area than say a 2.0l or vr6 t-body plate...
i wasnt sayin that 4 40mm throttles + 1 160 mm throttle, you may have misunderstood my earlier post


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## Rat4Life (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*

does this emerald ecu plugs into stock harness?


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: (russiandub)*

No, most 16v motors over here are k-jet so isn't mush loom to use. You have to make a one off loom for each application.


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

Do you want the butterflys close or far away from the head? What is the advantage to having them farther away?


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

The further away the butterflys the longer the inlet track, the longer the inlet track the better the low end torque will be at the exspence of top end power. More or less anyway.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iwanaturbo* »_The further away the butterflys the longer the inlet track, the longer the inlet track the better the low end torque will be at the exspence of top end power. More or less anyway.

Question for you ITB Guru's:
Has anyone ever tried building a "tornado" into their intake manifold after the TB's to get the air in a spiraling motion? U know, those devices that are thin-gauge metal and go in the intake piping in a way that as the air passes through it, it makes it spiral...
I was wondering about that...
Anyone?


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

bump.


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## 2002maniac (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kalvinlk* »_
Follow this link, and about 3/4 the way down the page there is a throttle body size calculator. Search the page for "throttle bores" and you will get right to it. Kinda interesting to play with, and it will show you why you do not need huge ITB throttle bodies.
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm
As far as the bikes go, they are flowing air to support between 150 and 180 hp at 15,500rpms. So, they are goign to flow more than enough air to support your application









I dont see how that calculator can be accurate if it doesnt account for maximum RPM.


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## hase_kind (Nov 24, 2003)

I'm planning on doing an ITB setup on my rabbit and I'm curious how the runner length effects the characteristics of the mod....could someone fill me in?


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: (hase_kind)*

In very general:
Short runners are best for high rpm power.
Longer runners are better for lower rpm.
Runner length can be tuned to a sweet spot, just like primary length on the headers.


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## hase_kind (Nov 24, 2003)

*Re: (chois)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chois* »_In very general:
Short runners are best for high rpm power.
Longer runners are better for lower rpm.
Runner length can be tuned to a sweet spot, just like primary length on the headers.

thanks....is there a tested middle ground that's decent for both? and i the 50 mil the best mani to use?


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: (hase_kind)*

Here is the start to my ITB setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (EuroRabbit)*

I used GSXR750 throttle bodies on a 42mm lower manifold with flanges welded on. The rubber flanges provide a smooth transition to the oval shape of the manifold while keeping the ITBs compact. I am selling this setup with megasquirt, wiring harness, 1.8T fuel rail, FPR 305cc 1.8T injectors, air filter, trumpets. All tuned and running on a 1.8L16V.
I also have a plain set of 750 throttle bodies for sale as well. 


















_Modified by BennyB at 9:08 PM 3-5-2006_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (kcbmxer)*

Not sure if its been covered or not yet, but the Gixxer Injectors are quite small.
The 750's are something around 19lb/hr, the 1000's will obviously be bigger but not a lot. 
The thing to note here is that There is no fuel pressure regulator on most of these rails, and only a feed line no return. Suzuki controlled the fuel pressure with a special pump.
If you want to use the injectors you'll need to do something really funky.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

couple quick pix of my most recent progress
laser cut wooden flange for test fit 








dry fitting








havin the flange cut/ milled within the next 2 nights out of aluminum http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
update
















tomorow night we mill the angle anf the holes for the injectors http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 















updated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by urogolf at 5:06 PM 3-10-2006_


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (urogolf)*

thats some sweet work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (diygti)*















hotness!


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

thanks guys i cant take all the credit for it though


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## Rat4Life (Oct 14, 2004)

looks really nice, great work.


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## 3mpi (Oct 27, 2004)

When using the bike Itb's what are most you you doing for the injectors? just one set, or running a primary and secondary set?


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## SuperChicken13 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: (iwanaturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iwanaturbo* »_In the UK most valver manifolds are 50mm, if some one wants one just PM me.








The 1.8T fuel rail will take the bosch type injectors, i'm using injectors out of a Pug 405 turbo which will flow anough fuel for 200hp. I used digifant injector bosses in the 16v manifold.
Got my ECU the other day, all i need to do now is put it in a car.







































Can I come work at your shop?







Cheap labour, 7p/hr please


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## EuroRabbit (Aug 4, 2003)

How long of rubber tubes did you guys use with the 16v setups?


_Modified by EuroRabbit at 9:58 AM 5-5-2006_


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## XwalkerX (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: (EuroRabbit)*

bumpin it back up for good info i can use


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## scirocco25 (Aug 22, 2004)

*Re: (urogolf)*



urogolf said:


> thanks guys i cant take all the credit for it though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## STORM_TROOPER (Jul 18, 2006)

Bump


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## Lowjack (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (scirocco25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scirocco25* »_Got a link for sourcing those filters?

air-cooled VW part....try jbugs or jc whitney


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## Speed Racer. (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: (scirocco25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scirocco25* »_Got a link for sourcing those filters?

You can get them from a few different parts places online. I can't think of any off the top of my head but I am pretty sure Summit has them. Bear in mind, they are $25 a piece.


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## XwalkerX (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: (Speed Racer.)*

What about screens for velocity stacks? i was thinking about getting some cheap aircooled stacks to throw on my itbs but i need to find the screens...


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## scirocco25 (Aug 22, 2004)

*Re: (Lowjack)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lowjack* »_air-cooled VW part....try jbugs or jc whitney

Need some kind of a description or link, cant find them on jbugs.


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## Speed Racer. (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: (scirocco25)*

I have some of the 750 ITBs if anybody is needing them.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kalvinlk* »_It's different even from that: You cannot simply add together the four butterfly sizes and get one large one. For example, I have four ITB's with 40mm butterflies each, that does not mean it's equivelent to a single 160mm throttle body. If this was the case, cracking the throttle to 10% open or so would mean I was pretty much full throttled!
Follow this link, and about 3/4 the way down the page there is a throttle body size calculator. Search the page for "throttle bores" and you will get right to it. Kinda interesting to play with, and it will show you why you do not need huge ITB throttle bodies.
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/minj.htm
As far as the bikes go, they are flowing air to support between 150 and 180 hp at 15,500rpms. So, they are goign to flow more than enough air to support your application









Not to quote an old post here but figured I'd add to this info so everyone looking will be informed.
With 42mm throttle plates, you can fairly easily flow enough air to support 250+whp. The AMA superbikes are making nearly 220whp out of less than 1L displacement. The limiter with our motors is in the head not the intake.
That being said, I don't fully agree with the hp numbers on the above metioned page. 400hp worth of flow is not taking into account anything other than the flow rate of the tb's themselves. Even honda guys aren't making that power and they're running 50+mm and turning 10k+. It's not a linear relationship.
No worries in our applications http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Fast929 at 8:20 PM 9-11-2006_


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## Lowjack (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (EuroRabbit)*

http://www.jbugs.com/store/mer...=6920








jbugs has them for $10, but my vw shop near my house sells them for like $7 i think (the pointy ones on the previous page)


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## goofydug (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (Lowjack)*

bump


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## rventoo7 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: Best motorbike ITB’s to use? (goofydug)*

bump can someone make a list of everything needed to convert to motorcycle itb's (looking for a CHEAP setup)
ill start the list
1. megasquirts engine management
2. coolant pipe
3. itb (which ones work best?)
4.


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