# No Throttle Response, bogs under throttle, idle jumps and stutters.



## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Hey everyone,

Kinda stumped at the moment. I've been working on getting my '79 CIS 8V running decent after putting it all back together. It has a 270 cam from Techtonics Tuning, new plugs/wires, ignition coil, fuel lines/injectors/o-rings.

The car idles rough and if you give it any gas, it will bog and want to die. If you ease on the throttle slowly, it will rev up just a bit but it sounds like it misses or cuts out. With it running, I have sprayed starting fluid all around any areas that could cause a vacuum leak, including the injectors, but it never effected the idle. The cam timing mark sits flush with the top of the cylinder head when the flywheel is pointing at TDC.

The car only seems to want to run with the timing set at like 10 degrees BTDC. If I spin the distributor so the timing light flashes on the TDC mark, it doesn't want to stay running. Here's a video of how it currently is running, and the distributor is set at about 10 degrees BTDC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QqzCoa3LPo&feature=youtu.be

Also, I recorded the timing light at the end to show how the light doesn't always flash consistently. I have adjusted the points so they are gapped correctly.

Any ideas? Possibly a bad WUR? I have yet to test that as I need to source a fuel pressure tester.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Alex


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Was it running OK before your took it apart?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

aeffertz said:


> . . . The car idles rough and if you give it any gas, it will bog and want to die. If you ease on the throttle slowly, it will rev up just a bit but it sounds like it misses or cuts out. . . The car only seems to want to run with the timing set at like 10 degrees BTDC.
> 
> Possibly a bad WUR?


First it is not the WUR which is causing your problems. test it if you like but it can't cause issues like you have.

Go back and check the engine timing, not ignition timing, real good. The problems you list sound just like an engine that is off a tooth on engine timing. I know, I know, you posted that the camshaft gear mark is fine when the flywheel indicates TDC. But there is more to it then just those two. Are you using the correct flywheel mark? Using the wrong one can put you a tooth off easy. By "putting it all back together" do you mean the whole engine? It is possible to install the flywheel wrong. Did you line up the ignition distributor also when setting the engine timing? Maybe everything is just fine, but the issues you have are the same one will have when the engine timing is off a little.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. The motor ran fine before I pulled it out years ago. Once it was out, I took off all the bolt on parts, cleaned and painted everything, replaced all the oil seals, put in a new oil pump, put in the bigger cam, put in stiffer valve springs, reshimmed the valves and replaced the clutch. When I put the flywheel back on, it appeared to only fit on one way. 

Here's the TDC mark I'm using. 


When I line that up with the pointer on the transmission case, the dimple on the cam gear sits flush with the top of the head. I stuck a straw in cylinder no. 1 and turned it over by hand and it appeared to hit TDC at the same time the flywheel indicates it. 

Originally, I had made sure the crank pulley and int. shaft pulley timing marks met each other but once I tightened the timing belt those two marks didn't quite line up anymore. But isn't the mark on the int. shaft pulley kind of irrelevant at this point since I had it timed do the TDC dimple was flashing under the timing light?


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

The car sounds like it is out of time. The dimple on the intermediate shaft will effect the distributor timing. One timing belt cog out is a big difference. Also at TDC the mark on the distributor body should align with the distributor rotor under the #1 wire on the distributor cap.

Also check the seating of the rotor in the distributor shaft, the seating of the cap on the distributor and the seating and order of the spark plug wires. The order of the wires should be 1-3-4-2 on the cap. It is real easy to get the wires out of order (I've done it several times.). It also wouldn't be unusual to get a bad rotor, cap or wires. But check everything else first. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

But doesn't the timing light prove that the ignition timing isn't off if the light (once attracted to the cylinder 1 plug wire) flashes and the TDC mark on the flywheel appears?

Even though the cam looks to be spot on, I'm going to try adjusting it one tooth in each direction to see what happens.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Does the TDC mark on the FW correspond to the TDC mark on the crank? And if you find TDC of the #1 piston, is the FW at the mark?


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Yes and yes.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

And the cam and the rotor too? Hmmmm.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

I watched your video once again. The timing light pulsing on and off shows that the spark to #1 cylinder is not consistantly occuring (although when it does occur it may occur when #1 is at TDC). You should verify all of your timing marks (including TDC on the crank piston and flywheel as suggested above -- (it is possible to be 180* out of time on a four stroke engine) and then look to the distributor as I noted above. You don't mention that you replaced the cap and rotor. Over the years I have experienced new distributor caps with bad center posts and bad rotors right out of the box. Inconsistant firing could be the result of those parts being bad. Also, it has been years since I worked on a VW with points but the points need to be properly gapped with a feeler gauge and then zeroed in with a dwell meter. Check to see that the points open and close with the rotation of the distributor shaft. The condensor could also be bad or not connected properly. You can check the specifications of the condensor electrically. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Right, I mentioned that in the first post that it didn't seem to flash consistently. I forgot to mention that I did indeed replace the cap and rotor. Like I also mentioned in the first post, I gapped the points so it was within the specs.

Thanks for all the input and help guys!


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Gapping is only the first step, then you need to throw a dwell meter on it and check that spec, it may need slightly more or less gap to meet the dwell spec. That's how it was on mine when I had the pints dizzy in it.

It still sounds like it is slightly more than just that though.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Ahh, okay. I'll have to do that. And I agree. I'm pretty sure it's something bigger than the gap not quite being spot on.


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

hey whats up

i had a very similar issue with my 78, points dizzy, cis basic

i replaced the WUR/CPR with a used one and the problem disappeared

your cold/warm pressures are probally off.....might want to investigate cleaning it or attempting to measure its fuel pressure

symptom:
cold start really poorly, idled ok
give it any gas and the engine will die but slowly try to "catch up"

warm engine ran ok, occasionally misfired and caused some serious studdering while cruising


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

If you set the engine timing with the pointer and flywheel as shown in the picture, it is set wrong. If you look to the right a little from the pointer you will see a small notch machined into the flywheel rim. That notch (“V” or diamond ) is used for the 6 degree BTDC ignition timing. The casting which the pointer is above or pointing to is nothing, just casting marks more or less. If you rotate the flywheel so that the notch is to the left of the pointer about 12mm, the pointer should then be pointing to a small dimple cast into the flywheel. That is the TDC position, but it is often hard to see on old or even newer motors. Set the way pictured you will be off at least one tooth and maybe 2.

Timing light flashing means nothing if incorrect. The light will flash when current travels through the sparkplug wire. If the engine is set up wrong then turning the ignition distributor until the light flashes on the timing mark just causes the current to travel through the wire in sequence with the mark, but it does not correct the mechanical miss-match do to the engine being set wrong. You can place the timing light on cylinder #3 and rotate the ignition distributor, in theory of course as the engine will die, until the current traveling through the plug wire matches the timing mark on the flywheel. Moving the ignition timing does nothing for correcting mechanical timing (piston location, valve open and closing timing, etc.).


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the help, but I think you are mistaken. You must be thinking of the 210mm flywheels. I am running the 190mm clutch/flywheel which has different mark locations.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

aeffertz said:


> You must be thinking of the 210mm flywheels. I am running the 190mm clutch/flywheel which has different mark locations.


Correct, was thinking 210mm flywheel.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

How can you tell if the motor is 180* off? All of my timing marks line up, but I guess I don't know if they're lining up on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Ahh, nevermind. Don't think it's 180 off. I swapped the plugs around to see and it backfired like crazy. 

Well, rented a fuel pressure tester from O-Rileys but it didn't have the right size fittings on it, so I was unable to check the fuel pressure. I'm 99% sure the mechanical timing on it is spot on. Have a look...

So, with the TDC mark on the flywheel lined up with this:


Here's where the cam sits:


Here's how the crank/int. shaft pulley's line up:


Here's the how the dizzy sits:



Plug wires, 1-3-4-2


Yet still no dice. Everything looks okay, doesn't it?


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

The timing light hardly ever flashes anymore while cranking, so I checked for spark and swapped around the new and old rotors/caps, but nothing really changed. I pulled a plug and checked for spark and it seemed to have spark, but maybe weak spark. I pulled the center cap wire off and checked for spark, and it had great spark, no issues there. Maybe I'll pick up another cap and rotor and see what happens. If I put the timing light on the wire from the ignition coil to the cap, it flashes constantly without a skip, but if I put it on a plug wire, it rarely ever even flashes.
Is there anything else that would be causing weak spark? I gapped the points with a feeler gauge so it met the specs in the Bentley.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

The rotor might well be bad. Or perhaps the center contact on the cap is bad. The regular pulsing on the wire from coil to cap indicates to me that the points are opening and closing. Check the condenser too. There may also be an issue with the distributor itself. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Bought new cap and rotor and installed them just now and no difference. The points open and close as the engine turns.

The green wire that runs from the coil to the distributor does what exactly? Sends a pulsed ground? When I put the multimeter on it, it reads 12V but will constantly drop to 0 and then go back up to 12V again. Is this normal?


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Normal.

LOL Just for fun run a jumper cable from the block to the battery negative. I'm sensing that the spark can't find a reliable ground. Maybe that pretty orange paint job has interfered with the block to battery ground.

Essentially, when the points are closed 12V current from the coil goes to ground. The coil produces no HV current. When the points open the 12V current is absorbed by the condenser, HV current is produced by the coil and is transmitted through the cap and rotor to the plugs. If a current can't find a ground path it will not flow. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Okay, cool. Sounds like it's working at least. I have a 2 gauge ground wire running from the back of the block to the chassis. Both contact surfaces of the ground strap have been stripped clean of paint.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Your pictures don't show the normal battery to block ground wire which attaches to the shiny upper block/transmission bolt you can see in the flywheel pictures. I wouldn't ground to the chassis. But instead install the factory ground that connects between those two points. The shortest route will provide the best ground. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Well, the battery is relocated to the rear of the car. I have a grounding strap from the transmission to the chassis and also another ground strap from the block to the chassis. Both are pretty short.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

LOL Sounds like it was engineered by Lucas -- the British "Prince of Darkness." I delt a lot with him in the '60's. He was fond of placing batteries far away from starters. The positive ground set up was confusing too although I have seen it on tractors. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Any other ideas, fellas?

I noticed the markings on the int. shaft and cam pulley are a little different, is it possibly that those are flip flopped? The one on the int. shaft is marked SSW (or something, I'm away at work now) currently. As far as the spark goes, possibly be a bad condenser?

FR, I see you're from northern Wisconsin. How far from Ladysmith? Maybe if you had a weekend off, I could give ya' a few bucks to swing down and we could try to get it tackled in a day as I am running out of ideas, ha.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Bad coil. bad condensor even bad points -- all within the realm of possibility. Wires too. Especially the wire from the coil to the distributor cap. I thought for sure that improving grounding would fix your issue(s). IIRC the intermediate shaft and the cam sprockets are basically identical. In looking at your pictures I don't see anything untoward about the timing. 

Check to see that the points are grounded. There should be a wire from the stationary contact at the points that carries current to ground. Use your multimeter to check for continuity to ground. When the points are closed the 12V current on the green wire should go to ground. When the points are open the 12V current is absorbed by the condensor and the coil produces the high voltage spark which travels from the coil through the rotor and distributor cap to the appropriate spark plug. The voltage then jumps the spark plug gap and travels to ground through the engine. I've seen issues caused by the points set not being properly installed so the parts ground out when they are not supposed to. If there is somehow leakage to ground when the points open that would effect spark. 

I live a few miles south of Eau Claire. Never get anywhere close to Ladysmith these days. When I was in college back in the mid 60's I used to get over that way once in a while. Mainly because a college buddy's family ran a resturant there and we could get a free meal. I recall their last name was Speich (pronounced Spike). Back in those days gas was $0.25 - 0.35 a gallon but none of us had much money so we would pool money and drive over. Now gas is more than ten times that, we still don't have much money, it's a lot tougher to find a free lunch, and several of those college buddies have passed away. But life is great! FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Well, I finally got back around to this. I swapped out the points with an electrical ignition and now I'm getting spark every time, good deal! However, it still doesn't start. Occasionally I'm getting a random popping from the exhaust, which almost sounds like a backfire. The mechanical timing still appears to be spot on, though.

This is frustrating.


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

that picture of the distributor looks a little funny to me, normally the hall sender plug is opposite where you have it, there should be a small notch in the distributor that lines up with the rotor while also pointing to the #1 spark plug wire, while the engine is at TDC


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

nevermind i read you're running points and i have no idea about them, but if you're getting random popping of the exhaust while cranking, have a buddy help you and loosen the dizzy hold down bolt enough to turn the dizzy to adjust ignition timing, have your friend try and start the car while you slowly rotate the dizzy back and forth, hopefully its just a little out of range and you'll get it to fire up, then dial it in with the timing light


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Just for fun switch the 2&3 SP wires on the distributor. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Alrighty, I'll go out and try that in a bit. I forgot about checking the fuel pressure, so I had to order a fuel pressure tester that should be here tomorrow.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

I've been wondering if you ever considered the fuel system. CIS takes a special tester to do all the tests to check the system. You can build one if that isn't what you ordered. The injectors take quite a bit of pressure to pop them open. You may want to pull the banjo bolts at the fuel pump and fuel distributor to check for blockages. You can pull the injectors, power the fuel pump by jumping the fuel pump relay then carefully lift the fuel distributor airflow plate to check the fuel distribution spray and -- that observation can tell you a lot even without an official fuel pressure measurement. FR


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## prjkt84 (Jan 9, 2009)

*buzzing.*

I had the same problem after I did my heater core. When I put the dash back in I knocked the cis controller slightly askew. Just for fun make sure its got a solid connection and is'nt damaged by water. 
Secondly is your frequency valve on the back of your fuel block making any sound like a buzzing sound? This was my issue. I cleaned the connections and after that my car runs.


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## govwgo77 (May 13, 2008)

Did you check the fuel pressure? Get it running good?


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

I checked the pressure from the top of the fuel distributor to the WUR line. It read ~30 psi. I don't know if that's how I should've checked it or not, but I just followed what the Bentley said. It seems like it's a fuel delivery issue or something. I have the 5th injector hardwired so I can make it spray whenever. If I spray it for a few seconds and try to crank it over, it sputters a little. Same thing if I spray starting fluid into the intake, it'll sputter. I jumped the fuel pump relay so the pump was constantly running and cranked it over but it didn't make a difference.

So I popped out an injector and cranked it over. Here's what I don't know. While I cranked it, the injector I pulled didn't spray any fuel. Should it? If I push up on the intake bowl/fuel lever thing while cranking, fuel does come out. So there's definitely fuel at the injectors. So I guess my question is should there be a constant spray of fuel from the injectors while the motor is cranking over? Also I noticed that a lot of times right as I turn the key to stop cranking, it acts as if it's going to start. Like something isn't quite right while cranking, but as soon as the key gets turned back to a certain point, it acts like it wants to fire up, but obviously doesn't because I'm turning the key back.

Timing is all on and I have very strong spark.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

And just an update. Haven't been able to get the car to run after those videos. Switched to an electronic ignition and now have great spark at each plug. I checked the compression while the motor was cold (since it won't run, obviously) and the numbers looked okay. A fuel pressure test shows a system pressure of ~70 psi and a cold control pressure of ~30 psi.

While I did have the car running roughly in those videos, I did spray all around the intake with starting fluid to check for a vacuum leak but the idle never seemed to jump. Timing is all spot on, minus the dizzy which is very close and will be able to dial it in if I can get it to run.


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

aeffertz said:


> Timing is all spot on, minus the dizzy which is very close and will be able to dial it in if I can get it to run.


Did you try what I suggested on the last page? Find a helper to turn the key to crank it. Stand in front of the car, loosen the dizzy hold down bolt and while its cranking, slowly rotate the dizzy left and right to see if it catches the sweet spot to start it.


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Really slow, no more than 1/8th turn in either direction and you should get it to fire


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Yes, had a buddy over the other day and had him crank it over while I slowly turned the dizzy in both directions. But no luck.

The only way it wants to run is if I spray fuel into the intake from the 5th injector.


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## govwgo77 (May 13, 2008)

Knowing the injectors will spray when lifting plate the motor should get fuel if you lift the plate when cranking. Did you try starting it while lifting the plate?


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

I did a couple times, but Sydney seem to make much of a difference.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

With the FP relay jumpered lifting the air plate should cause the injectors to spray. It takes quite a bit of pressure to pop the injectors open -- like 60 PSI or so. That's an easy check. Jumper the fuel pump -- pull an injector -- lift the air flow plate carefully and observe the injector spray.

I trust that the 30 PSI you mentioned above is cold control pressure. That sounds like it should be "in-range." I built my own test set-up using some brass fittings and some junkyard fuel lines. Basically you need to connect a fuel pressure gauge between the control pressure fitting top center of the fuel distributor and the control pressure regulator (CPR) on the block. The test set up has a fuel pressure guage and a valve that you can open and close. I connected the guage and the valve together with some brass hardware store fittings. 

To test you remove the electrical connection from the CPR and connect the test set-up. Then, with the test set-up connected, valve open, jumper the fuel pump relay to run the fuel pump and observe the pressure shown on the gauge. That pressure will vary by temperature -- increasing with ambient temperature -- You should get around 19 to 25 PSI at 68* and around 30-35 PSI at 80-90* F. That is cold control pressure.

Then close the valve -- keeping the FP relay jumpered -- and the pressure should increase to 65 to 75 PSI. That will be the system pressure. Remember, I said earlier that it takes a lot of pressure to pop the injectors open. If the pump fails to generate that much pressure the injectors will never open.

If those two tests are OK -- do a leak down test. With the valve still closed - remove the FP jumper and enjoy two bottles of Leinies. Is the pressure still above 23 PSI??? Open the valve - reinstall the FP jumper and get your cold control pressure back on the gauge. Remove the jumper and have another couple of bottles of Leinies. Pressure still above 23PSI???

Send the remaining two bottles of Leinies from the six-pack to me with a note explaining how the tests went. FR


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Thanks for the post of the dizzy wires going to the plugs. I mixed mine up today and this made things a snap!





aeffertz said:


> Ahh, nevermind. Don't think it's 180 off. I swapped the plugs around to see and it backfired like crazy.
> 
> Well, rented a fuel pressure tester from O-Rileys but it didn't have the right size fittings on it, so I was unable to check the fuel pressure. I'm 99% sure the mechanical timing on it is spot on. Have a look...
> 
> ...


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

FR,

I have done the pressure tests like you mentioned amd wrote down the results in the previous posts, system was ~70 psi and the cold control pressure was ~30 psi. The only thing I didn't do was a leak down test. The injectors sprayed when I lifted the intake lever. 

Sometimes when I'm cranking the car, the motor will backfire out of the intake but only if I have sprayed a bit of fuel into the intake manifold.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

I feel like the cam is off somehow. Even though the timing mark on the cam gear is perfectly flush with the top of the cylinder head (just like the pictures show) it only attempts to run if the distributor is set at like 30 degrees BTDC! (Rotor pointing way to the right of the reference mark on the dizzy)


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

I thought I went through the cam stuff somewhere above. Since the same pulley is used for the cam and the IM shaft it makes a difference which timing marks are used where. With #1 at TDC the cam lobes for #1 should be pointing up like bunny ears. There also could be an issue with the woodruff keys for the cam and intermediate shaft. Those keys locate the IM shaft and cam pulley timing marks. I've found the keys missing with the pulleys rotated on the shaft. (The same would go for the crank pulley too. Usually those are tough to screw up but I seem to recall there were some flywheels that didn't have a positive locator pin or hole offset for TDC. ) I had one car that was timed wrong because the IM shaft broke around the Woodruff key allowing play. I guess I would consider the flywheel too -- could that be installed in the wrong position on the crank??? I have to say tho that your pictures of the timing all look good to me. Just things to consider. It's basically just connect the dots. It sounds like you are 180* out or 90* out. Certainly been there and done that!

BTW -- Do you have a kid that plays sports for Ladysmith? I thought I heard Effertz on Channel 13 or Channel 18 sports the other week. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm too young to have a kid playing sports! I'm only 21 but I do have relatives that are still in high school, yep.

The shafts still have the locking peg on them so the gear could only go on one way and when I put the flywheel and crank gear on, they seemed to only be able to go on one way.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Okay, I think I figured out the problem. It's not getting fuel, I believe. If I make the 5th injector constantly spray, it fires right up and idles fine. But as soon as I quit spraying the 5th injector, it dies right away. I hear the pump prime or whatever when I first turn the key forward and then sometimes once I turn the key backwards from cranking. 

If I jump the relay so the pump is constantly running, it still won't start or run. What gives?


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## mjkicks2 (Feb 24, 2011)

Back from the dead bump, 
What ever happened with posting the solution to your running problem?? 
I've got similar running issue now. Working to resolve it.


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