# Misfire Problem (2004 W12)



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

Hey everyone,

I'm currently having a misfire problem with my Phaeton.
Last time I went to the dealership, I was told that the Coilpack recall has already been done on my vehicle in March, 2010.

Here is the VCDS reading:

Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 39990 444 00648
VCID: 254135A9EF5B573072A

5 Faults Found:
18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2 
P1923 - 008 - 
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 008 - - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1 
P0301 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16689 - Cylinder 5 
P0305 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16687 - Cylinder 3 
P0303 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 97000 444 00415
VCID: 254135A9EF5B573072A

7 Faults Found:
17489 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 3; Range 1 
P1081 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
17493 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 4; Range 1 
P1085 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
16594 - Injector: Cylinder 10 (N300) 
P0210 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 008 - - Intermittent
16696 - Cylinder 12 
P0312 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16692 - Cylinder 8 
P0308 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16694 - Cylinder 10 
P0310 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent

Full Diagnostics Reading:

Saturday,09,February,2013,20:00:52:47697
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Kevin,

Do us a favor and clear all the codes and drive for a couple minutes then rescan and see what comes back. You have a bunch there that should go away.

Oddly enough, your misfires are on the outermost 3 cylinders of each bank. I'll have to think about this one a bit... :beer:


----------



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

> 17489 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 3; Range 1
> P1081 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
> 17493 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 4; Range 1
> P1085 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
> ...


You almost certainly have a vacuum leak on engine bank 2 (cylinder bank 3 and 4). I doubt you had six coil-on-plug modules die on the same day. It could technically be a bad MAF sensor giving you a faulty measurement, but you have the misfires that would go along with an air leak. A faulty measurement by the O2 sensors is unlikely because the sensors on cylinder banks 3 and 4 are in agreement. That injector electrical fault is of possible interest, but should only cause a misfire on the one cylinder if at all. I'd forget about it if it goes away and doesn't return after clearing codes.

Look for anything that could leak air under engine vacuum between the engine bank 2 MAF and the intake manifold. Also look at some of the vacuum plumbing that connects directly to the intake manifold. Hopefully it's something simple and obvious. It's easy to forget something or damage something when getting the air filter boxes out, for instance. If you have trouble finding it, you can use a small propane torch to troubleshoot. With the engine running at idle, turn on the torch gas valve but don't light it, and wave it around slowly in the suspected area. When you get close to the vacuum leak, engine RPM will pick up a bit.

When troubleshooting, remember that all of the engine bank 2 (cylinder bank 3 and 4) intake plumbing is on the passenger side of the vehicle, physically on top of engine bank 1. That big beautiful expensive intake manifold routes air over and across the engine to the opposite bank.

You can monitor your progress using VCDS. In Engine II (address 11) watch measured value block 32 fields 1 and 3. Those will be the cylinder bank 3 and 4 range 1 (idle/additive) fuel trim values respectively. The ideal values are zero, but you usually only see that right after clearing codes (which zaps all the fuel trim adaptations). Reasonably acceptable values are +/- 5%. You probably show 15-25%. When you think you've fixed it, clear codes to reset your fuel trims, start her up and let the engine idle for a bit, and see if those values start getting crazy again. 



W12Canada said:


> 16685 - Cylinder 1
> P0301 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
> 16689 - Cylinder 5
> P0305 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
> ...


I think these may be bogus. You have good reasons to have misfires on 12, 8 and 10 (too lean at idle). Not only are these adjacent in the firing order, they're firing overlapped across 60 degrees of crank angle. The W12 firing order is 1 - 12 - 5 - 8 - 3 -10 - 6 - 7 - 2 - 11 - 4 - 9. The two ECUs are both doing crank acceleration monitoring independently to detect misfires. I would not be at all surprised if heavy misfires on one bank could confuse the other bank's misfire detection algorithm.

Jason


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

PowerDubs said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Do us a favor and clear all the codes and drive for a couple minutes then rescan and see what comes back. You have a bunch there that should go away.
> 
> Oddly enough, your misfires are on the outermost 3 cylinders of each bank. I'll have to think about this one a bit... :beer:


That's the scan after I cleared the codes (2 weeks ago). The CEL came on again this morning and I've driven the vehicle 3 times since yesterday. I'll scan it when I get home (The VCDS cable is in the car but my laptop has a dead battery).



jyoung8607 said:


> You almost certainly have a vacuum leak on engine bank 2 (cylinder bank 3 and 4). I doubt you had six coil-on-plug modules die on the same day. It could technically be a bad MAF sensor giving you a faulty measurement, but you have the misfires that would go along with an air leak. A faulty measurement by the O2 sensors is unlikely because the sensors on cylinder banks 3 and 4 are in agreement. That injector electrical fault is of possible interest, but should only cause a misfire on the one cylinder if at all. I'd forget about it if it goes away and doesn't return after clearing codes.
> 
> Look for anything that could leak air under engine vacuum between the engine bank 2 MAF and the intake manifold. Also look at some of the vacuum plumbing that connects directly to the intake manifold. Hopefully it's something simple and obvious. It's easy to forget something or damage something when getting the air filter boxes out, for instance. If you have trouble finding it, you can use a small propane torch to troubleshoot. With the engine running at idle, turn on the torch gas valve but don't light it, and wave it around slowly in the suspected area. When you get close to the vacuum leak, engine RPM will pick up a bit.
> 
> ...


I'll look into this and keep you posted. Would it be safe to drive with this current condition as of now?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

If that is the scan after you cleared the code- check your batteries. The codes are showing voltage issues.

I wouldn't drive with lean and misfire codes. Especially if the CEL is flashing, not solid. Why risk damaging a 30k engine?


----------



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

W12Canada said:


> I'll look into this and keep you posted. Would it be safe to drive with this current condition as of now?


I agree with Josh. It's probably not wise. You don't mention any symptoms, but your codes lead me to assume it idles badly but it's mostly okay under load when driving. Assuming that's true, it's safe to move it around your driveway as needed, and probably to drive it a short while to a dealer if you must. If you have another car I'd switch daily drivers for the time being.

Lean misfires at idle aren't the greatest thing for the engine, but a few aren't going to make it explode. The main problem is poor/incomplete combustion dumping gas into the catalytic converters, which will ruin them over time. In addition to the parts expense, the workshop procedure for replacing the cats starts something like "Step 1: Remove engine from car" and goes from there. You don't want that.

Of all the engine problems you could have, this is one of the easiest to deal with. You probably just have an unplugged, cracked or loose air fitting somewhere. You've got a garage, you've got VCDS, get hold of a propane torch if you don't have one. The internet and Youtube are full of info on how to find automotive engine vacuum leaks in general. Take off the engine covers and have a look; I bet it only takes a few minutes to find. Let us know how it goes. 

Jason


----------



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

W12Canada said:


> 17489 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 3; Range 1
> P1081 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
> 17493 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 4; Range 1
> P1085 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON


Following up to myself... Ross-Tech has a nice article describing how fuel trims work and when you'll see trouble codes. You can check it out here:

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/fuel-trim.html

In your case, the ECU thinks the fuel/air mixture is too lean on that side. That can be not enough fuel, or too much air (more than reported by the MAF sensor). In your case, it's probably too much air. With the throttle mostly closed at idle, there's negative pressure (vacuum) in the intake. The MAF sensor is before the throttle body. If there's a leaky spot somewhere past the throttle, extra air can get pulled in that the MAF sensor hasn't seen and reported. The ECU can adjust for small deviations, but only to a point, and then you set a lean DTC.

Way simplified:



MAFS: Here comes some air.
Injectors: Here's the right amount of fuel for that air.
Cylinder: *BANG*
Pre-cat O2 sensor: Still an awful lot of O2 left in the exhaust, guys!
ECU: Hmm, let me try some more fuel next time.



MAFS: Here comes some air.
Injectors: Here's the right amout of fuel for that air, with an adjustment.
Cylinder: *BANG*
Pre-cat O2 sensor: Still an awful lot of O2 left in the exhaust, guys!
ECU: Hmm, let me try even more fuel next time.



MAFS: Here comes some air.
Injectors: Here's the right amount of fuel for that air, with a bigger adjustment.
Cylinder: *BANG*
Pre-cat O2 sensor: Still an awful lot of O2 left in the exhaust, guys!
ECU: Bull****, take me to the mechanic.

Jason


----------



## cswhite2 (Jul 4, 2007)

jyoung8607 said:


> Way simplified:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a great description for us modern-engine dumdums! Good stuff.


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Miss Spark Plug was missing, it must be the first W12 diesel engine ever... 

Gabriel


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

My CEL is solid. It has never blinked.

Here is the scan as of right now:
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222

Monday,11,February,2013,19:40:14:47697

Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

W12Canada said:


> 1 Fault Found:
> 18158 - Supply Voltage
> P1750 - 003 - too Low
> 
> ...




You cleared the codes again and still have voltage issues popping up??


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

PowerDubs said:


> You cleared the codes again and still have voltage issues popping up??


I just replaced the battery a couple of weeks ago and it's still giving me the issue. I have informed the dealer and they're going to replace it again. (1year/20000km warranty on all parts).


----------



## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Guys,

You may want to take a look at a recent scan of a W12 engine which turned out to have 2 defective coils:
Setting-Readiness-Code-W12-Engine

The faults reported in that thread look very different than this one. I think that solving the power supply problem, as Josh suggested, is a major priority prior to doing anything else.

If that is solved and the problem still persists...could it be perhaps a defective (worn out) oxygen sensor? Or just poor fuel?

Willem


----------



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> The faults reported in that thread look very different than this one. I think that solving the power supply problem, as Josh suggested, is a major priority prior to doing anything else.


His ECUs aren't in closed-loop mode (actively managing AF ratio based on O2 sensor feedback) until the engine has been running for several seconds and the engine has reached some minimal operation baselines. It takes even longer if it's started cold. The alternator will be spinning and providing power long before that happens.



> If that is solved and the problem still persists...could it be perhaps a defective (worn out) oxygen sensor?


To reproduce the diagnostic codes he's showing, the sensors at positions B3S1 and B4S1 would have to fail in exactly the same way at exactly the same time.



> Or just poor fuel?


It's possible, but unlikely. He only has AF ratio problems on engine bank 2, confirmed by multiple independent sensors. Any fuel problem should manifest on both sides. He does have intermittent misfire codes, some of which appeared on engine bank 1 (1-3-5). But, it's very possible those misfire codes for engine bank 1 were recorded in error due to reasons I outlined above.

Jason


----------



## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

jyoung8607 said:


> His ECUs aren't in closed-loop mode (actively managing AF ratio based on O2 sensor feedback) until the engine has been running for several seconds and the engine has reached some minimal operation baselines. It takes even longer if it's started cold. *The alternator will be spinning and providing power long before that happens.*


Just wondering what will happen when the alternator will not do what you expect it to do...
I think we may assume that the controllers are not reporting any errors which are voltage related during the starting procedure up to about 5 seconds after starting. The LH supply voltage can easily drop below the ideal value during starting sequence. Well designed car electronics should be "forgiving" during and shortly after the start sequence until the car can expect that the alternator is spinning and providing power. So we must assume that these electrical faults are generated during normal operation of the engine.

When you take a look at these errors, then there are simply too many to deny electrical problems. (an understatement for sure...)



There are about 15 controllers which are reporting problems in the two scans:
8 occurrences of no signal/communication errors
4 times Error 00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
Even the transmission controller is whining about it.
2 times 00907 - Intervention load Management 
Some weird errors like Missing vehicle speed signal


Some more serious electrical problems are reported as well:

The 00143 - Right Front Dampening Adjustment Valve (N337) is complaining about an electrical fault in the circuit.

Even the ECU itself reports electrical problems:
2 times 16594 - Injector: Cylinder 10 (N300), detail: P0210 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction – Intermittent

The xenon headlight is in trouble as well.
In other words… there are too many electrical faults to ignore. Looking into engine problems can be frustrating when these electrical problems aren’t resolved. Except for the bass speaker problem, they all need to be not present for a reliable engine diagnostic.

The first thing to look at, is the power supply. Check battery voltage using a DMM. It should be at least 13.5 volts during with the engine running idle and should be constant when RPM is increased.


Willem


----------



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> Just wondering what will happen when the alternator will not do what you expect it to do...


I **knew** the moment I hit Submit that you would seize on that. :laugh: Get your alternator replaced yet?



> I think we may assume that the controllers are not reporting any errors which are voltage related during the starting procedure up to about 5 seconds after starting. The LH supply voltage can easily drop below the ideal value during starting sequence. Well designed car electronics should be "forgiving" during and shortly after the start sequence until the car can expect that the alternator is spinning and providing power. So we must assume that these electrical faults are generated during normal operation of the engine.


That is a very big assumption and I don't think I fully agree for the Phaeton. On many cars that's true, but for the Phaeton there are several things to bear in mind:



The Phaeton has very high accessory load, especially in winter
By design, most of the onboard electronics voltage aren't exposed to a voltage dip from engaging the starter, BUT
It's very typical to see low-voltage errors when the Phaeton needed to use one of its special start modes, AND
One of those modes is automatic battery paralleling at -10C and below

Kevin's car is in Canada in early February.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a battery problem. He may very well have a problem. If he only replaced his VPS battery but his start battery is old and weak, that will make parallel-mode start even tougher on the VPS side of the electrical system. But, I also think these cars can be forgiven a couple of transient voltage faults when started in extreme cold. And, I think the engine AF ratio complaint is separate and legitimate.



> When you take a look at these errors, then there are simply too many to deny electrical problems. (an understatement for sure...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's had the dampener valve, bass speaker, parking lamp and alarm horn codes ever since he bought the car. They appear to be legitimate problems in need of work. The communications problems seem to be limited to the Infotainment system and its navigation computer, and are very explainable if they're briefly interrupted by cold-weather parallel start.

Virtually everyone is going to show an Intervention Load Management code in winter. It's a notification, not an error.



> Even the ECU itself reports electrical problems:
> 2 times 16594 - Injector: Cylinder 10 (N300), detail: P0210 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction – Intermittent


I grant you this is a possible problem and I don't know where it came from. Could be low voltage, but the ECU should say so. And, engine management stuff is very tolerant. It has to work reliably under the worst possible conditions, like jump-starting a dead car when cold.

If it's a legitimate problem with that one injector, it could very possibly cause the AF ratio codes on engine bank 2. But, a faulty injector (or faulty wiring) should cause AF ratio problems on range 1 *and* range 2 for that engine bank, and focus any misfires on that one cylinder rather than three (or six). He's only shown it once and it hasn't come back. The AF ratio codes DID come back. That's a pretty important indicator, because clearing codes on the ECU resets the AF ratio adaptations to zero. The ECUs had to see AF ratio problems again, for a long enough time that it ran all the way through its adaptation range to the max allowed before posting a DTC.



> The xenon headlight is in trouble as well.


Maybe. Let's check.

Kevin: does your right headlight flicker sometimes when you're driving, perhaps over bumps? If so, that's a sign it's near the end of its service life and it needs to be replaced. If it isn't doing that, then we can possibly move it into the low-voltage issues column.

Jason


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I haven't been following this thread in detail, but when my batteries were replaced, the dealer claimed they were "seeing" (they never said exactly how) voltage drops during starting that weren't recorded in the log.


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi Jason,

The car is currently parked and being charged with the NAPA battery tender (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2235554)

- The CEL came on around 30km after clearing the codes.
- As for the poor fuel mixture, I've always put in 91 Octane (with a few exceptions when they ran out and I had to put in 87 instead).
- The xenon lights (both of them) are always flickering which I may have mentioned previously in my mega thread. I have 2 sets of bulbs for them but after attempting to tackle the bulb replacement and finding how difficult it was, I'll be purchasing OEM philips bulbs and have it done by a specialist. Since the low beams also double as DRLs (mandatory in Canada), they have a shorter lifespan than they should.
- The infotainment keeps on randomly restarting on the car now.

EDIT: To add to this, the PRNDS still lights up and a scan shows low voltage.
However, after I charged the VPS battery by driving for an extended period of time (4-5 hours), it worked again for a few start ups and now they're all lit up again.
I'm getting a hunch that the dealer didn't change the battery.
When they showed me the battery, it had a red rubber cover on the positive terminal. Last night, when I plugged my vehicle in, it had a black or grey cover instead.


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

As well, I passed on the software update suggested by Michael.

The dealership informed me that it required 6 hours of labour (6x$120=$720 - $20 discount/hour = $600).


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

Finally got it looked at.........

Was getting spark plugs changed and turns out that there was a valve cover gasket leak which was leaking onto the coils AND to the spark plugs causing the misfire.

The spark plugs have been replaced before as they are definitely not OEM (Bosch).

As for the CEL and the air leak, there was one hose on the passenger side (driver's side has one too) that was snapped in half so they temporarily repaired it in the mean time so that I can at least drive the vehicle.

There are the spark plugs that I ordered:










From this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5959840-Spark-Plug-Question

Took 3 weeks to arrive from the U.S.

The tech that's never worked on a V.W. before, removed the cover in about 15 minutes









Here's how the engine looks with it removed:










With the two spark plugs and coils removed, you can kind of see that there is a slight oil leak in there:










The oil leaking into the ignition coil is the reason as to why I had a electrical malfunction









Here are the plugs that were pulled from the vehicle:









So the service manager decided not to change the spark plugs as the oil leak needs to be cleaned and because of his involvement with Volkswagen Canada before, he had some contacts that were able to pull some strings to get me the coils at no charge.

I'll most likely be going to get all the work done for under $1000 which is great!

Also, took about 3 hours of labour but got the two low beam bulbs replaced and they work great!
I haven't been charged for any work on my vehicle yet.

Will keep everyone updated.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Kevin,

That's great news, and an interesting set of photos! You seem to be able to get things done cheerfully and resolutely (and at low cost...)

I love the sight of that manifold inlet, it looks like a proper classic vehicle, connected to all those Bentley 4-litres and Hispano-Suiza's that were once icons of power and technology, covered with honorable road spray from pushing inexorably through the weather.

Photos of shiny new engines in the factory are also impressive, but in a different way. 

Chris


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, that inlet shot is great! I can't for the life of me visualize how the air makes its way to the outside cylinders. That's one hell of an engine.


----------



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

W12Canada said:


> Finally got it looked at.........
> 
> Was getting spark plugs changed and turns out that there was a valve cover gasket leak which was leaking onto the coils AND to the spark plugs causing the misfire.
> 
> The spark plugs have been replaced before as they are definitely not OEM (Bosch).


Yeah that stuff certainly won't help. Pooled oil around the plugs will cause all kinds of trouble. And that's an odd choice of spark plug. They could at least have used the NGK equivalents. The VW plugs are the same model NGKs with an added VW logo on the insulator.



> As for the CEL and the air leak, there was one hose on the passenger side (driver's side has one too) that was snapped in half so they temporarily repaired it in the mean time so that I can at least drive the vehicle.


Called that one. 



> The tech that's never worked on a V.W. before, removed the cover in about 15 minutes


Make sure he doesn't drop it.  That's made up of three hand-tooled and matched manifold parts, made from magnesium I think. A new set will set you back about ten grand. Although, these days you could probably turn up a manifold set in a scrapyard somewhere. And FYI, if you just need access to the COP modules or spark plugs, you can remove the sides of the intake rather than the whole assembly. Two bolts per side and you're done, with less risk of foreign object damage from stuff falling into the intake ports. Here's an example:

http://ccxtips.net/~jyoung/vwvortex/phaeton40k-19.jpg



> The oil leaking into the ignition coil is the reason as to why I had a electrical malfunction


The oil leak won't have done the coil-on-plug module or the spark plug any good, and may well have contributed to misfires, but your electrical malfunction code was a fuel injector fault - not a coil-on-plug ignition fault. Nothing you're doing here will affect that in any way, with the possible exception of the wiring itself being touched/disturbed during the service work. The injectors are under the fuel rail, the twisty silver tube in the center that circles around the intake ports.



> Here are the plugs that were pulled from the vehicle:
> ...
> So the service manager decided not to change the spark plugs as the oil leak needs to be cleaned and because of his involvement with Volkswagen Canada before, he had some contacts that were able to pull some strings to get me the coils at no charge.


That's great that VW is covering you, if that's 100% confirmed. Are you sure it's happening, have you already got them for free? There was a coil-on-plug module recall a few years back and all the W12 owners got new modules out of that, and that might be what they were thinking of. But, there's a campaign sticker in your pictures that I'm pretty sure it says "28F3". It's hard to see for sure, but if that's what it says, VW already paid out for a new set on your car's VIN and probably wouldn't pay for another absent some serious string-pulling.

Info on the COP recall program: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4630136

Jason


----------



## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

jyoung8607 said:


> Yeah that stuff certainly won't help. Pooled oil around the plugs will cause all kinds of trouble. And that's an odd choice of spark plug. They could at least have used the NGK equivalents. The VW plugs are the same model NGKs with an added VW logo on the insulator.
> 
> 
> Called that one.
> ...


Fuel injector issue... My beloved companion seems to seek for my affection through trips to the repair shop. As for the recall, yes, the recall has been completed in March/2010 and they're going to cover it again. It's not 100% confirmed but so far I was told not to pay for my $300 repair bill (which is nice).


----------



## Sebasvanbladel (Jun 25, 2014)

*Also misfiring problems Sith bentley w12*



WillemBal said:


> Just wondering what will happen when the alternator will not do what you expect it to do...
> I think we may assume that the controllers are not reporting any errors which are voltage related during the starting procedure up to about 5 seconds after starting. The LH supply voltage can easily drop below the ideal value during starting sequence. Well designed car electronics should be "forgiving" during and shortly after the start sequence until the car can expect that the alternator is spinning and providing power. So we must assume that these electrical faults are generated during normal operation of the engine.
> 
> When you take a look at these errors, then there are simply too many to deny electrical problems. (an understatement for sure...)
> ...


Hello Willem,

I have THE samen problem with my bentley gt w12. THE acceleration is coming in waves and when i drive normal with not much gas THE car runs grate. But whem i want to acceleration hard THEn is Goes slowly. I let read out of my car and THE told misfire at 3 cilinders. I just removed all ignition Coils and spark plugs and THE problem is still there!!

THE computer read iT againg and still misfiring at 3 cilinders. Is this à injector problem? And at THE frist time Reading hè sayed also ladedrucksensor 2 times. 

Maybe you can help me by email. [email protected]

Best regards all


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Sebas (is that correct?),

Welcome to the forum! Willem has not posted for a few months, so perhaps he is busy elsewhere, but surely someone here can comment on your W12 problem.

Can you post a complete scan here, preferably using a VCDS scanner from Ross-Tech? It sounds as if your engine controllers are shutting off the turbos from time to time.

Chris


(ladedrucksensor= Boost Pressure sensor)


----------



## Sebasvanbladel (Jun 25, 2014)

*Thanks for reply Paximus*

Yes the name is correct

I really dont know where to look now. There is no leak i think in the hoses.
What do you mean by VCDS scanner from Ross-Tech? I dont know it. I will google it.

Now i changed all the spark plugs and ignition coils so that wasnt the problem.
The garage told me this is the problem with 2 ladedrucksensors. 

After installing coils and plugs all errors where erased.

Then i was driving the motor managment light came op some times and goes out.

I connected the laptop again and the only fault it gave was misfire at 3 cilinders.

But the error ladedrucksensors is not in the computer now. The sensors are not expensive (95 euro for 2 pcs) but it cost a lot of time to mount them.
The frontbumper has to take of. If this is 100% the problem i will to it bij them. 
But now like the plugs an coils it is a cost of 700 euro for nothing.

Maybe a injector who i dirty? I can put Forte Injector cleaner in the car. Bentley does this every time with the service. The adviced me.
Nice people by the way from Bentley Leusden in Netherlands. The help you good on the phone.

For other people to let them know how much time it takes to change the plugs en coils: 2,5 hour total.

Take the filters off (the complete airboxes!), take the 2 front air hoses of, 2 hoses on the sites (left and right) and 2 connectors front.
When you remove filters you can change allready the back 8 coils and plug. Then the 8 torqs of the manifold. The front 4 coils are under the manifold but you can pull it up in the front and then change the front 4 spark plugs. You dont need to take the complete manifold of. Only lift it up a little. The 4 hoses back on the manifold you dont have to disconnect them. Then you only need the middle manifold metal gasket.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

The VCDS scanner (or the VAG factory equivalent that Bentley Motors dealers use) interrogates all the car's controllers. An OBD-II scanner only reads legally-required emissions information.

Here are the two authorised VCDS suppliers in The Netherlands:
www.priemus.nl/
www.randstadcarsolutions.nl

Here is a link to an example scan from a Bentley Continental using an older version of the VCDS software (the latest software shows slightly more information):
VAG-COM Controller Lists from Phaetons

The type of information from one of the engine ECUs might look like this sample:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 97000 444 00415
VCID: 254135A9EF5B573072A

7 Faults Found:
17489 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 3; Range 1 
P1081 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
17493 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 4; Range 1 
P1085 - 001 - Lean Limit Exceeded - MIL ON
16594 - Injector: Cylinder 10 (N300) 
P0210 - 004 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 008 - - Intermittent
16696 - Cylinder 12 
P0312 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16692 - Cylinder 8 
P0308 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16694 - Cylinder 10 
P0310 - 008 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent

Full Diagnostics Reading:

Saturday,09,February,2013,20:00:52:47697
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Chris


----------



## Sebasvanbladel (Jun 25, 2014)

Oke but i let it allready read out by a Launch.
And then it told 3 cilinders misfire. Nothing else.
New coils and plug didnt helped the problem.

I cant find anything on the internet. Only one told that 1 rocker arm was damaged.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

'Launch' is an OBD-II scanner, not a VAG/Bentley-capable scanner.

Please can you post your fault codes? Detailed codes might help someone interpret which area of the engine is causing misfiring, by analysing the cylinder numbers and other details. We do not have much information to go on.

I do not think you will get a lucky answer just from someone saying 'I changed Sensor ABC and the fault went away'. The W12 is a complex engine.

Chris


----------



## Sebasvanbladel (Jun 25, 2014)

Yesterday i was spoken to the last owner and told him this problem.
The car was in the beginning allready broken but i didnt test it long enough with buying. 
When the engine is cold then it takes more time when the turbo turns of.
Also with cold weather the engine runs better. 

Now i have to bring the car EXCO.nl en the will look at it. 
The are specialized in this kind of cars.
The old owner will pay the costs ofcourse.

I will let you know when the problem is solved. I hope its not the Membrane of the turbo. This is a very high cost!:facepalm:
The Bentley dealer says that this is a formiliar problem.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Sebas,

I'm glad that you have a plan. Hopefully the repair shop will know what to do.

Do let us know when you make good progress!

Good luck,
Chris


----------



## ernil (Sep 1, 2016)

Hello from Poland, 

at first - special greetings for PanEuropean - I am third "flying" generation in my family, so I just wanted to say a special "hello" to him 

I've bought Phaeton W12 2003, 75oookm with some problems with converter and some fuel mixture issues. 

Car is just after coils and sparks service-action, didn't help. Owner sold it to me after that. 

Only one bank has missfires, so possible vacuum leak? 

VAG-COM Version: Release 311.2-N

Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 B 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AT A Ş5112
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01244
9 Faults Found:
18060 - Please check DTC Memory of Transmission Controller
P1652 - 008 - Implausible Signal
17699 - Coolant Temp Sensor at Radiator Outlet (G83): Signal too Large
P1291 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
17573 - Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air Bank 1: Range 1: System too Rich
P1165 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
17499 - Mixture Regulation: Bank 2: Range 1: Rich Limit Exceeded
P1091 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
16523 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S2: Response too Slow
P0139 - 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
17500 - Mixture Regulation: Bank 2: Range 2: Rich Limit Exceeded
P1092 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
17574 - Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air Bank 1: Range 2: System too Rich
P1166 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
16543 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S2: Response too Slow
P0159 - 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2
P1923 - 008 - Implausible Signal

VAG-COM Version: Release 311.2-N

Control Module Part Number: 07C 906 018 B 
Component and/or Version: D1-6.0L-AT A Ş5112
Software Coding: 0000173
Work Shop Code: WSC 01244
7 Faults Found:
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
P0301 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
P0303 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected
P0302 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
16689 - Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
P0305 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
16690 - Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
P0306 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
16688 - Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
P0304 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

ernil said:


> Hello from Poland,
> 
> at first - special greetings for PanEuropean - I am third "flying" generation in my family, so I just wanted to say a special "hello" to him
> 
> ...


Who serviced it? 

Well, first I would clear all DTCs and see what sticks.

The W12 has two engine ECUs. Address 1 and Address 11. Since you didn't post the whole scan, I'm just guessing. Is the 2nd set of codes from address 11?

I would also check ECU fuses. 

See post #16 for a .pdf file with the fuse locations:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3001224

Do you have a Bentley manual?


----------



## ernil (Sep 1, 2016)

Hi, 
thanks for the reply, and I'm sorry, if I will make some mistakes in writing - that's not my native language...  

It was serviced by AutoRud Rzeszów - VW dealer in my city. But I wasn't the owner then. I've bought it few months after the service. 

I know, that it has got two ECUs and the first part of scan is from the 1st ECU, the second one (with missfires) is from the other one. And those are new one. I've cleared the codes few times. 

I've bought a new G83 sensor yesterday, I will try to mount it today, so one problem will be propably solved. 

AutoRud also changed one lambda probe, as far as I know. I will try to figure out what exactly they did in this car, I am going there right now. 

No, I do not have manuals yet. Just some self-study VW stuff from the Internet.


----------



## ernil (Sep 1, 2016)

I'm back from VW service. 3oookm ago they've changed: 
- coils (service action)
- spark plugs
- filters
- engine oil

Those unprofessional idiots destroyed MAF sensor's housing (mount) on the driver's side. 










I have also found, that PCV valve hose (I am not sure if it is a PCV valve, but I think so) wasn't fully plugged in. Oil was leaking, so maybe some air could get through there too causing air-fuel mixture related codes, same as the broken MAF sensor mount. 
(On the photo below it is unplugged by me already). 










I have replaced the G83 sensor, so I do not want to start the engine now cause I need to fill the cooling fluid up before. 
I've glued MAF sensor mount and I plugged thet PCV hose firmly. 

I will clear all codes and start the engine later. 
Will see what happens


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Does your left intake look like this with the hose fitting on the back?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-200...ash=item1eb123c7f1:g:riQAAOSwEa5XPvE4&vxp=mtr

On mine, there is a valve or something attached to my left intake hose and it was broken. It's part of the emission system but I can't find it in the parts diagrams to show you a picture. 

If it's broken or not attached or missing, it is another place that would cause a huge vacuum leak. 

If you have one, it's under the back cover by the firewall.


-Eric


----------



## ernil (Sep 1, 2016)

Yes, I've got the same one. I think I know what you are talking about. 
This valve? http://assets.suredone.com/1517/med...9-05-vw-jetta-golf-passat-058-133-753-b-2.jpg

I know them well, hehe. I have also Audi S8 D2 2000, so I am familiar with some vacuum leak issues  

I drove 50km, cleared DTC's two times and only three codes showed up:

17573 - Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air Bank 1: Range 1: System too Rich
P1165 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
17499 - Mixture Regulation: Bank 2: Range 1: Rich Limit Exceeded
P1091 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

and one with converter (transmission), but there is nothing we can do with this one right now. Engine first


----------



## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

ernil said:


> Yes, I've got the same one. I think I know what you are talking about.
> This valve? http://assets.suredone.com/1517/med...9-05-vw-jetta-golf-passat-058-133-753-b-2.jpg
> 
> I know them well, hehe. I have also Audi S8 D2 2000, so I am familiar with some vacuum leak issues
> ...


Yes, that's the exact part I was talking about. Mine broke at the top seam. I bought a new one, but was able to glue the old one back together. 

It sounds like yours is acting almost normal now. Maybe if you drive it a bit more those last two faults will clear up. 

Vacuum leaks are common faults on all cars. A little vacuum line can cause so many problems that people blame on other components. The lines get old and brittle. I tried to replace all of the vacuum lines on my old Ford, but couldn't find all of the right sizes. 

Good luck,

-Eric


----------



## ernil (Sep 1, 2016)

Everything is OK now. I forgot to plug that small servo-hose into the 90deg intake hose between air filter and intake manifold. 
I wanted to use a new clamp there, so I left it loose till morning and than I forgot to do it... 
I've re-checked my work day after that and found my mistake. 
I've drove 600km from then and got no codes (besides the converter of course). 
So I have almost repaired my Phaeton 

I have also bought a new, genuine converter few days ago.


----------

