# ABA 8v Supercharged & with Non ABA Superchargers (Discussion and Who's done it?)



## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

*ABA 8v Supercharged & with Non ABA S/C's (Discussion and Who's done it?)*

Ok guys, I know this has been beat to hell and back regarding supercharging the ABA, but it seems that everyone has gone completely away from it nowadays. I have seen every argument as to why not to S/C please keep that out of here. I know that 90% of you say turbo and have a lot of great reasons that I have read in searches that I have seen dating back to 96, but lets keep the why out of the discussion and keep the facts and how to in it. 

Alright, with that said, from what I can find the only S/C "Kit" available currently new is the BBM. Yes you can find used Neuspeed chargers here and there but again thats used. For new superchargers that you could piece together your own kit is from what I see only the BBM S/C and a rebuilt G60 from BBM that are made specifically for the ABA. Used there are a lot of ABA specific options available from the Lysholm, G60, BBM, and the NS. 

I want to discuss the options with other non kit types of SC's that people have used and had success with. Using inexpensive chargers already used on production vehicles like the cobalt ss, the GTP, cooper, and so on. I like this concept because the only difficult part of the setup would be making brackets and compatibility with the pulleys that I believe would be easy to overcome. The one I have found the most info in is using the smallest charger from eaton the m90. From what I have found is that there is limited success with power increase due to size and efficiency of the charger using smaller pulleys. Eaton seemed to only be a good option when twin charging. There is tons of info on going G60 but the issue with that is reliability and cost. I want to find out what has worked for people and what hasnt?

I found a thread with limited info about a guy (krazykolour) using a cooper s charger.He has not been on in over a year so asking him I doubt would be any help. Has anyone else done this? It appears that it could be a very low budget option if it actually worked. From what I could tell I like the fact that the charger was already designed to be a "Pre Throttle Body" S/C and not post being more efficient. It also being able to intercooled is a plus it as well. 

I also found another using a GTP Pontiac SC with only describing the fact he did it and got great results with no real info on cost and heart ache to do it. 

So post up threads you have maybe already made that are archived or and discussion you want I am trying to be an info sponge at the moment. 

Disclaimer: I have obviously searched and thought about this thoroughly, this being a basically dead discussion in 2012 the info that is able to be found is limited or very very old.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

I dont really have any info on supercharging a aba motor like you asked but I did notice that you said the smallest eaton charger was an M90. Eaton also make a M62 and a M45. The cobalt ss uses the M62. I am putting one of these on my 2.5, and should give me around 12psi. I would be glad to try to help with anything I came. I am on the downhill side of my s/c project, so maybe I could answer some questions. 

If you want check my supercharger build thread, there are calculations and maps to give you boost levels.

Good luck :thumbup:


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## 02vwgolf (Oct 6, 2009)

mldouthi said:


> I dont really have any info on supercharging a aba motor like you asked but I did notice that you said the smallest eaton charger was an M90. Eaton also make a M62 and a M45. The cobalt ss uses the M62. I am putting one of these on my 2.5, and should give me around 12psi. I would be glad to try to help with anything I came. I am on the downhill side of my s/c project, so maybe I could answer some questions.
> 
> If you want check my supercharger build thread, there are calculations and maps to give you boost levels.
> 
> Good luck :thumbup:


^^^you should definitely talk to this guy if you plan on going a different s/c route than normal. I have been following his build thread and he seems like a great resource:thumbup:

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

You can buy a Neuspeed kit new under MK4. I bought one for my wife's MK4 Jetta. Great kit. Easy to install, quick and easy powergain. 

I have a BBM stage 3 kit with upgraded cam, head, exhaust, etc. 300+hp, it's quite fun. The BBM kit is worth the money if you know what you're doing. 

Making a supercharger that wasn't meant to work on your car work will need a lot of fab work. ABA's respond well to boost. The cheapest route would be to find a used Neuspeed kit or a Z/VF-engineering kit.. even though they're centrifugal, they're fun for a 2.0, if you want more power.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> I dont really have any info on supercharging a aba motor like you asked but I did notice that you said the smallest eaton charger was an M90. Eaton also make a M62 and a M45. The cobalt ss uses the M62. I am putting one of these on my 2.5, and should give me around 12psi. I would be glad to try to help with anything I came. I am on the downhill side of my s/c project, so maybe I could answer some questions.
> 
> If you want check my supercharger build thread, there are calculations and maps to give you boost levels.
> Good luck :thumbup:


:thumbup: Thanks for the response mldouthi, Thanks for the correction on the M90, I guess that is all they reference as an aftermarket option offered by them. loving your idea with the cobalt charger and right up the alley with what I want to do. I am starting the read on your build and I am sure I will have a few questions that will correspond between what I want to do and what you have done. 



Hurt said:


> You can buy a Neuspeed kit new under MK4. I bought one for my wife's MK4 Jetta. Great kit. Easy to install, quick and easy powergain.
> 
> I have a BBM stage 3 kit with upgraded cam, head, exhaust, etc. 300+hp, it's quite fun. The BBM kit is worth the money if you know what you're doing.
> 
> Making a supercharger that wasn't meant to work on your car work will need a lot of fab work. ABA's respond well to boost. The cheapest route would be to find a used Neuspeed kit or a Z/VF-engineering kit.. even though they're centrifugal, they're fun for a 2.0, if you want more power.


Hurt, thanks for the great info. The only thing that turns me away from the NS is their lack of having be ability to modify to gain more power other than a pulley. Also given that my application will be a daily with long distances being driven, a smaller pulley isnt the best idea for longevity of the charger. Also the NS does not have the ability to be inter cooled and I am considering doing an air to water cooling for an SC setup, something I have not seen, so I want to do it:laugh:

I have heard a lot of good and a lot of bad from the BBM, the good is that it is a complete kit and easy to install. The bad is the high cost, low reliability, and high cost to reman once the SC goes bad. 

Keep the suggestions coming, anyone else done something similar to what mldouthi is doing?


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

For intercooling you will find some premade plates that are made for honda supercharger kits and zzperformance has some for the GM cars (eaton) stuff. 

If you dont mind a little more fab work, you could do a custom ic. Bell intercoolers makes nice stuff. I am using a one of there cores for my awic setup. They are good quality and have good customer service.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> For intercooling you will find some premade plates that are made for honda supercharger kits and zzperformance has some for the GM cars (eaton) stuff.
> 
> If you dont mind a little more fab work, you could do a custom ic. Bell intercoolers makes nice stuff. I am using a one of there cores for my awic setup. They are good quality and have good customer service.


I am trying to keep the fab work to the minimum due to very novice welding skills and being able to replicate the build easily for others.
:thumbup: Your build is amazing me, I am sure you have answered this in there but are you doing the welding or having a shop do it for you? 

I think I have a little different setup in mind as to how I would like to intercool and TB location. I am trying to avoid doing TB before the SC, but I am guessing this would be where my biggest question would be regarding the M62. Can it be used actually being mounted upside down and ran to the TB after the charger with a turbo style intercooling being run to the TB inlet of the IM? 

Some shots of what the guy that had the Mini SC did and where I am getting the idea.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

I am doing all the welding myself. I do have a machine shop I use that runs some of the stuff I need CNC cut. 

The M62 is self lubricated and therefore you can run it in any orientation. The only thing to look out for is where the drain plug is located. Its nice to be able to change out the oil without removing the s/c, but that is fixed by simply drilling a new drain hole. 

Check this build out. Its not a vw but he is running a s/c like you want to.... and a turbo 
http://www.calibersrt4.net/dodge-caliber-srt-4-performance/43441-twincharged-srt4-24.html


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Also, I would not run a plate like shown above on that s/c. Make something more tapered, these things create enough heat as it is without putting a small tube with 90 deg inlet corners right after. haha


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> I am doing all the welding myself. I do have a machine shop I use that runs some of the stuff I need CNC cut.
> The M62 is self lubricated and therefore you can run it in any orientation.
> Check this build out. Its not a vw but he is running a s/c like you want to.... and a turbo
> http://www.calibersrt4.net/dodge-caliber-srt-4-performance/43441-twincharged-srt4-24.html





mldouthi said:


> Also, I would not run a plate like shown above on that s/c. Make something more tapered, these things create enough heat as it is without putting a small tube with 90 deg inlet corners right after. haha


:thumbup: Excellent welds my friend, I really hope to be that good one day. 
Good to know about the M62, and one thing that seems to be a better pick is that a self lubercating S/C is the way to go. How often do you have to change the oil on them, from what I see it does look like the drain would need to be tapped?

Thanks for the link and extra info, do you have a different link on that one, it just goes to an error page saying I need to be a member, I tried to google but it does the same?

Makes a lot of sense on the plate, it would make more sense to have the 90deg actually made in the plate so the heat is not being diverted at that angle by a coupler.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Thanks, they are getting better, still not great though. Just takes practice.

The drain hole would need to be tapped for a plug.

How often you change the oil depends on your pulley size. Smaller will need changed more often. but if you are running the stock size pulley that came on the charger, should be around 30K for eatons. But there will be recommended change intervals from the car it came off.

I guess I created an account a long time ago just to view the thread. Sorry I didnt notice it auto logged me in.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> I guess I created an account a long time ago just to view the thread. Sorry I didnt notice it auto logged me in.


No worries, I guess I will have to do the same. 

I might not have read far enough but what did you decide to do with the BOV? I see that in the MINI application it looks like he used a TiAl BOV, I am just wondering how much affect it has on the charger and the issues of running rich.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

The cobalt M62 has a bypass valve built in. So thats all I need for running the tb pre s/c.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> The cobalt M62 has a bypass valve built in. So thats all I need for running the tb pre s/c.


:thumbup: Thanks again for all the info, and props on your build its some impressive stuff!!

Right now I am still debating between two S/C's, the Eaton M62 from the Cobalt and the M45 from the Mini R53 CooperS. It seems that all the others are either becoming obsolete, too expensive, or too large for the gains and efficiency I am looking for. Anyone see one I might be missing?

One thing I am trying to figure out is with the M45 it has a drive gear for the water pump on the cooper. Obviously this would not be something that I would need to use. I am having trouble finding any clear info on if the gear needs to stay as a part of the charger or if it can be removed from the housing but still enable the charger to operate properly. There appear to be many issues with the gears wearing out inside this portion of the charger and not much is offered to replace them from what I can find.

From this I looks as if the larger gear could be left out and the charger would still operate as normal.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

The M45 superchargers came on some of the SLKs also. Im not sure if you already have that mini s/c but then you wouldnt have to worry about the pump. There are also some other cars that the m45 come on that dont have pumps. 

Do you know the airflow (cfm) of the aba motor? That will help with the choice.


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2229154


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> The M45 superchargers came on some of the SLKs also. Im not sure if you already have that mini s/c but then you wouldnt have to worry about the pump. There are also some other cars that the m45 come on that dont have pumps.
> 
> Do you know the airflow (cfm) of the aba motor? That will help with the choice.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: How many forums are you a member of :laugh: 
I am going to see if he still has that fs, thats a steal. 

Excuse my ignorance in advance in this arena my knowledge is slightly limited. From what I can find the stock CFM is around 139-145, search on here really sucks and google wasnt much help either. I was trying to find a graph but could only find a few discussions of the overall CFM for the ABA. I did find a graph of the Pressure Ratio and Inlet Volume Flow of the M45. I will also list some info on the intake I found as well. Please point me in the right direction or calculation in figuring out what can I do with this info to determine the correct charger to use. 

Motor: 2.0L (1984 cc) I4 SOHC 8V Fuel Injected (121.071 cu in) 
Engine code: ABA 
HP: 116.6 PS (115 bhp) (85.8 kW) 
Hp Peak: 5400 rpm 
Torque: 122 ft/lbs 
Torque peak: 3200 rpm 
Unitary capacity: 496 cc per cylinder 
0-60 mph: 10.60 seconds 
1/4 mile: :edit: they call it 2 point slow for a reason 
Top Speed: 124 mph (200 km/h) 
Power-to-weight: 104.83 bhp/ton 
Hp per liter: 58.97 
Firing order: 1-3-4-2 
Engine idle speed: 800-880 rpm ; (with a/c on 830-910 rpm) 

OBD I 
(Lower Intake) 
Part Number:037 133 206 C 
Lower runner length: 6.2" long 
Port inside diameter: 32.5mm (head side) 
Port inside diameter: 34.5mm (opening connecting to upper manifold) 
Single runner volume: 150cc 

(Upper Intake) 
Part Number: 037 133 203 T 
Port inside diameter: 34.25mm (opening connecting to lower manifold) 
Runner length: 3.875" 
Plenum Volume: 1.8L


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Haha. Im not a member there. That was just from a quick google search. 


For sizing the s/c you will need to play with pulley sizes and s/c speeds. Once you determine the air intake that the s/c is capable of convert it to m^3/hr and use the chart below. You also want to try and stay in the highest effiecency range for the s/c to help get all the power you can. That is where you will play with the actual s/c size, to get the boost pressure, and s/c speed where you want them. 

Here is a calculator to help. 
http://performancetrends.com/Calcul...-Calculator/Supercharger-Boost-Calculator.php 

I have an excel spreadsheet at home I can send you later that will help with this as well. It will help show the boost levels at different rpms.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> I have an excel spreadsheet at home I can send you later that will help with this as well. It will help show the boost levels at different rpms.


 I would love to see that excel sheet when you get the chance, I will PM you my email addy. I am trying to find the pulley sizes for the ABA right now, you would think I wouldnt be the first to need the information on a engine that is over 18 years old. I might just have to go out and measure tonight when I get home. 

One thing I am trying to find a little more info on as well and you may be able to help.. What would be a good range or peak engine RPM and s/c efficiency to base my calculations on and help me find what I am looking for? The thing I am worried about is over spooling/spinning the charger for too long. The s/c is going on my DD and I drive 45miles one way on interstate to work. I am worried about the charger spinning at that high of a rate for so many hours that it will die quicker as opposed to someone who has a highway commute normally keeping the rpm slightly lower for less time. Should it calculate everything based upon a slightly higher rpm to meet efficiency of the s/c in order to keep the revs of the s/c lower or am I just being too careful?  

I wanted to post as a reference for myself and others watching this to 
Page 3 & Page 8 of mldouthi's s/c build with lots of info on calculating psi and efficiency of the s/c.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

U_know_me said:


> I would love to see that excel sheet when you get the chance, I will PM you my email addy. I am trying to find the pulley sizes for the ABA right now, you would think I wouldnt be the first to need the information on a engine that is over 18 years old. I might just have to go out and measure tonight when I get home.
> 
> One thing I am trying to find a little more info on as well and you may be able to help.. What would be a good range or peak engine RPM and s/c efficiency to base my calculations on and help me find what I am looking for? The thing I am worried about is over spooling/spinning the charger for too long. The s/c is going on my DD and I drive 45miles one way on interstate to work. I am worried about the charger spinning at that high of a rate for so many hours that it will die quicker as opposed to someone who has a highway commute normally keeping the rpm slightly lower for less time. Should it calculate everything based upon a slightly higher rpm to meet efficiency of the s/c in order to keep the revs of the s/c lower or am I just being too careful?
> 
> ...


 I ended up having to measure the 2.5 ones, no companies want to give out measurements or info they have gathered that might reduce their sales. 

As for the peak RPM, that will be the highest you will ever run your car. I am not that familiar with the aba motors, so maybe someone else can chime in on the highest you should run this motor. 

From the flow map below the optimal rpm for the s/c is around 6000 rpm, green lines are rpm. and the blue areas show effiecency. Those are the values you should use for the calculator. 

I wouldnt worry about trying to underclock the s/c just try to get it in the optimal range. The calculation will be max and I doubt you will be running max rpm to work everyday. haha. 

Also that isnt the final calcs on my setup either, there are more on page 14  haha


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

The rev limit is at 7000rpm so use that for your engine speed. 




Blower Belt Ratio = TBD 
Engine Vol. Efficiency, % = 70 
Blower Vol. Efficiency, % = 70 
Engine Displacement Units = L 
Engine Displacement = 2.0 
Blower Displacement Units = L 
Blower Displacement = .737 
Pressure Units = in_mercury 
Barometric Pressure = 30.42 (today in Atlanta) 




More info 
http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-eaton-data.htm


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> The rev limit is at 7000rpm so use that for your engine speed.
> Blower Belt Ratio = TBD
> Engine Vol. Efficiency, % = 70
> Blower Vol. Efficiency, % = 70
> ...


 I used this quote to figure from Kevin on Page3 of your thread to determine some things. I could be way off in what I am doing with it please correct me if I am wrong. 

Quote: 
So you take measurements of each pulley divide crank by s/c pulley to get ratio, then multiply the ratio by engine redline to comare with supercharger manufacture listed charger redline, and lower/raise pulley size by that. 
If we can get the circumferance of the crank and s/c pulley we can do the equation. So far this is all I can fill out 
Crank Pulley Circumferance = xxx 
S/C Pulley Circumferance = xxx 
Ratio = xxxx 
@ 6200 rpm = xxxx S/C rpm 
Then you take s/c rpm multiply it by .03531 to get CFM 
M62 supercharger output capacity = 1 L/ rpm = 14300 L (LPM*.03531 = CFM) = ~454 CFM of air 
2.5 engine can inhale 271 CFM of air (151.33 cubic inches*6200RPM/3464) 
Excess air = 454 – 271 = 183 “boosted” CFM 
Boost = excess CFM / normal CFM * atmospheric pressure 
183 / 271 * 14.7 = 9.93 so ~10 pounds boost This was done using a 2.3 ratio made up from 6200rpm divided by the supplied 14300 rpm charger speed given already 
To do it right we need crank circumference as well as s/c pulley. BUT if you can get a 2.3 ratio you will get the boost levels you are looking for. 
End Quote: 

I was trying to determine the perfect s/c to crank ratio and also decide the correct charger with that. Using this _"This was done using a 2.3 ratio made up from 6200rpm divided by the supplied 14300 rpm charger speed given already To do it right we need crank circumference as well as s/c pulley."_ I came up with a ratio made up of 2.07 for perfect performance of the M45. (14500 / 7000) The issue with this is what you see below, way to much boost for what I want. 










So I adjust the ratio to achieve the boost I want with the setup getting a ratio of only 1.7 giving 10 psi of boost. 










Essentially the engine rpm wouldnt change so If that stays the same you would get an equation of (12000 / 7000) to get a ratio of 1.7, making the s/c only spin at a rate of 12000 RPM. Do you think this would still be an ok range for the M45. I could drop to the M24 but then I would be over spinning the s/c by a long shot.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

22.26inHg = 10.9psi 
10.36 inHg = 5.09psi 

With your calculations below you gave the baraometric pressure in inHg (inches of mercury), because thats what its normally measured in, so that is the units they gave you boost in. Convertions shown above. (psi = inHg x 0.49) 

So the ratio around 2 looks good. 

Without the actual pulley sizes its hard to say, you need to make sure you can get the correct sized pulley for the s/c. I think you are looking at a M45 with a small pulley or an M62 with a large one. Remember that most vehicles that these chargers come on are only running like ~5psi so thats the engine size ranges they give.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> 22.26inHg = 10.9psi
> 10.36 inHg = 5.09psi
> 
> With your calculations below you gave the baraometric pressure in inHg (inches of mercury), because thats what its normally measured in, so that is the units they gave you boost in. Convertions shown above. (psi = inHg x 0.49)
> ...


 Thanks for catching my mistake looks like the ratio of 2.07 would be perfect then! Now for my lazy ass to measure that thing!


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

U_know_me said:


> Thanks for catching my mistake looks like the ratio of 2.07 would be perfect then! Now for my lazy ass to measure that thing!


 Ok I measured the crankshaft pulley, it looks to be about 4.5. So that would mean I need a crankshaft pulley of 2.17 in order to have the ratio of 2.07 to be perfect for the numbers I am looking for. I am going to do the research on the s/c pulleys tomorrow and see what I come up with. Anyone have any easy links stock pulley sizes on the chargers. I am going to search myself in the morning.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Here is one link to pulleys 
http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/c/53-Pulleys-Belts.aspx 



I think you will have a hard time finding that small of a pulley. and getting it to fit over the snout.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

M62 with 3inch pulley. This will keep the charger mostly in peak efficiency and not max out the s/c. Max s/c rpm would be 10500rpm. This would also allow for easy furture upgrades, if you would like.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> M62 with 3inch pulley. This will keep the charger mostly in peak efficiency and not max out the s/c. Max s/c rpm would be 10500rpm. This would also allow for easy furture upgrades, if you would like.


 :thumbup: I originally ruled out the M62 Because of the mistake I was making on the boost calculation, but this looks perfect! Now time to hunt for a M62, google, ebay, cobalt forums here I come!


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## b5blazing (Apr 30, 2011)

So the other night I was talking to my buddy about doing this exact build. 
He found this thread and brought it to my attention. So I played catch up and read threw the thread. 
So off all the calculations the eaton m62 is most efficient. 
So from experience with the m62 there are 3 generations of just the m62. 
Some of the earlier generations don't have bypass valve built in. I have a pes g2 kit on my 30v b5 a4, 
It's a 3rd gen eaton m62 at. 7psi 
But onto the aba. Before reading thread here I had my mind set that the m45 would be the best bet for the aba. But an m62 is cool I'm comfortable with it cause I have worked with it before. And with the m62 it performs well without an ic. And mounting in the front of the engine bay you will avoid a lot of the heat soak issues. 
So for me it would be be cutting up my short runner and having a mounting plate put on for the m62 and having an adapter for the m62 to a vr tb. Running a short runner as a custom manifold will cut down on all the charge piping and keep pipe bending at a minimum. I would essentially moun the m62 with an adapter plate right to the short runner. No Ic used. I would most llikly use water meth to cool charge and individual nozzles on each manifold runner would ensure proper mixture. 
But again I'm just in the dreamer stage. But would like to get my idea going sooner than later. 

Also here is a lnk to pulley boys. This is where I got my upgraded(smaller) pulley for my m62 on my 
a4 I have a 2.9 and a 2.8 as well as a 3 15 in if needed for testing 
http://www.pulleyboys.com/store/home.php?cat= 
:wave: 
Jimmy


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

b5blazing said:


> So the other night I was talking to my buddy about doing this exact build.
> He found this thread and brought it to my attention. So I played catch up and read threw the thread.
> So off all the calculations the eaton m62 is most efficient.
> So from experience with the m62 there are 3 generations of just the m62.
> ...


 
Good link for the pulleys. They look very similar to the zzp stuff. Do you know the bolt pattern on the modular pulleys? 

Also, there are 5 generations of M62s


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

b5blazing said:


> So for me it would be be cutting up my short runner and having a mounting plate put on for the m62 and having an adapter for the m62 to a vr tb. Running a short runner as a custom manifold will cut down on all the charge piping and keep pipe bending at a minimum. I would essentially moun the m62 with an adapter plate right to the short runner. No Ic used. I would most llikly use water meth to cool charge and individual nozzles on each manifold runner would ensure proper mixture.
> But again I'm just in the dreamer stage. But would like to get my idea going sooner than later.
> 
> Also here is a lnk to pulley boys. This is where I got my upgraded(smaller) pulley for my m62 on my a4 I have a 2.9 and a 2.8 as well as a 3 15 in if needed for testing
> ...


 :thumbup: Great link, & good luck on your build! 

What sri do you currently have? I was originally planning to not use one to cut down on cost, but I believe the benefit will out weigh the cost. 

mldouthi and I put in some hard work on a calculator for s/c sizing, it also gives all the data (boost,HP,CFM..etc) based upon your engine size, desired HP and the s/c you want to use. We wanted to have it all in one place giving all the data we could think of. Feel free to shoot me a PM and I would be more than happy to send it to you and anyone else that is interested.


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## Jh0104 (Jul 15, 2010)

subscribed, i cant wait to see some results and some build pcitures!


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

This thread is awesome alot of good info

How hard would it be to take a mk4 air mani and modify it so the m62 bolts up to it, i believe it would look alot like a neuspeed s/c and would it be a good design for keeping the s/c cool


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

That could work. It would probably just end up upper half's runners, because you would need to make the "plenum" with an ic inside. 

Good thought. :thumbup:


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

So the m62 would need a ic, how would u go about doing that


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> So the m62 would need a ic, how would u go about doing that


In the ABA running it as a front mount it will not be beneficial because your going to be pushing right around 10lbs of boost. If you do it inline with the s/c as mldouthi has done in his build this page has pics you will see many benefits also going air to water.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

db3ck said:


> So the m62 would need a ic, how would u go about doing that


The neuspeed s/c kit I googled looked to have a built in awic thats why I mentioned it. You will also be picking up some heat for the exhaust manifold having it on the back side of the motor. So even more of a reason to have a ic.



U_know_me said:


> In the ABA running it as a front mount it will not be beneficial because your going to be pushing right around 10lbs of boost. If you do it inline with the s/c as mldouthi has done in his build this page has pics you will see many benefits also going air to water.


You will still see benefits from running a front mount at 10psi. Roots blowers are the highest heat producing chagers. Having cooler air will always helps. When you run the air though an ic you are making the s/c a more efficient system. So basically you would then add a certain percent to each of the efficiency rings in the flow map. 

The benefit of air to water is the ability to cool past ambient, with the use of an ice box. But you are also at risk of heat soak if you dont have enough water in the system, and water = weight.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Is there another way to cool the s/c or is the awic the best route, i would probly make a heat shield the factory ones kinda suck


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## b5blazing (Apr 30, 2011)

Chemical inter cooling with water methanol injection. 
It cools the intake temps and raises octain levels allowing more boost and timing


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Water meth as b5blazing said, but personally I wouldnt really on something that can run out. 

awic and meth injection :thumbup:


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> You will still see benefits from running a front mount at 10psi. Roots blowers are the highest heat producing chagers. Having cooler air will always helps. When you run the air though an ic you are making the s/c a more efficient system. So basically you would then add a certain percent to each of the efficiency rings in the flow map.
> 
> The benefit of air to water is the ability to cool past ambient, with the use of an ice box. But you are also at risk of heat soak if you dont have enough water in the system, and water = weight.


:thumbup: Good to know about the IC still being beneficial with roots, I have heard rumor that anything less than 10 PSI front mount is not beneficial, but after thinking about it I dont really see how it could hurt as long as you have a well working (no leaks) system.

On the water = weight issue, I wonder how much water they typically hold and how long does it stay in the system? I will have to look into this in the morning. 



mldouthi said:


> Water meth as b5blazing said, but personally I wouldnt really on something that can run out.
> 
> awic and meth injection :thumbup:


:thumbup: x2 on that, and its just a lot more of that green stuff that is hard to come by these days:laugh:


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

So if i go this s/c route what would i do for a ecu can i get a chip for a stock ecu or would i have to go standalone


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

U_know_me said:


> :thumbup: Good to know about the IC still being beneficial with roots, I have heard rumor that anything less than 10 PSI front mount is not beneficial, but after thinking about it I dont really see how it could hurt as long as you have a well working (no leaks) system.
> 
> On the water = weight issue, I wonder how much water they typically hold and how long does it stay in the system? I will have to look into this in the morning.


Well the under 10psi is most talked about for the centrifugal s/c's because they are more efficient and dont produce as much heat. Also most applications for roots blowers dont allow for a front mount and therefore isnt mentioned much. 

As far as the water goes, that all depends on what type of vehicle its on. Drag cars hold enough water to do one pass through the system as to use all the potential of the water in one pass. You dont see air water set ups alot on road race (long distance) cars because the longer you run the car hot the more water you will need to keep it form heat soaking. The other thing that can cause this is not having a big enough heat exchanger. 
More than likely with low boost you wont need much water, so a small expansion tank would due, with a proper size heat exchanger.
The water/coolant stays in the system until you flush it.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> So if i go this s/c route what would i do for a ecu can i get a chip for a stock ecu or would i have to go standalone


There are a lot of different companies that make chips for our cars, I would say C2 or TechTonics being the most popular. There are also a few that will go by what type of setup you have and do a custom one for you. If your obdI like myself your going to be a little limited but there are still a few out there. Personally I am going to go with the NS stage 2 chip and see how it works out. I could be wrong but from what I have seen in the vdub world stand alone is rarely used, unlike the Japanese world.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> Well the under 10psi is most talked about for the centrifugal s/c's because they are more efficient and dont produce as much heat. Also most applications for roots blowers dont allow for a front mount and therefore isnt mentioned much.


:thumbup: This makes perfect sense!


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

U_know_me said:


> There are a lot of different companies that make chips for our cars, I would say C2 or TechTonics being the most popular. There are also a few that will go by what type of setup you have and do a custom one for you. If your obdI like myself your going to be a little limited but there are still a few out there. Personally I am going to go with the NS stage 2 chip and see how it works out. I could be wrong but from what I have seen in the vdub world stand alone is rarely used, unlike the Japanese world.


I have a obdI aba and it already has the pflow chip, i have a buddy that aba swapped a mk1 rabbit truck and he is soon to be putting a ns s/c on it and he plans to go standalone so i may just have to see how well it goes for him and if its worth the hassle


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> I have a obdI aba and it already has the pflow chip, i have a buddy that aba swapped a mk1 rabbit truck and he is soon to be putting a ns s/c on it and he plans to go standalone so i may just have to see how well it goes for him and if its worth the hassle


How do you like the Pflow? Is he OBDI, I assume going standalone is probably the best way to go for obdI becasue it gives us everything we are missing.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

*Calculation Debate*

I wanted to post my current debate with myself. Below I you will see the differences between the M62 and the M90 in reference to the ABA. 

Currently I am debating the M90 for the following reasons. I will be applying this to a rebuilt and fully forged bottom end. I believe I will be using the stock compression but that is still for debate . I like the M90 because It gives me a little more room at the high end for the max RPM of the charger, as well as gives increased boost that the block will be able to handle. Also I feel that the loss of HP from the size of the charger will be overcome by the gain of the engine build. 

As you see the M62 with a 2.25 pulley the s/c would be spinning close to its max efficiency. I could go to a 2.5 pulley on the M62 but then I will be spinning at only 12420 RPM @6900 engine RPM. This being well below from the peak efficiency of the s/c.

One thought I did have using the 2.5Pulley the M62 being lower boost I could raise the compression slightly and be able to be a little more aggressive with the cam safely, as well as have room to increase redline. 

Decisions decisions....


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

You will have to do some major machining to the snout if you want to fit anything under a 2.5" pulley on an M26. 2.7 is the smallest modular pulley you can use without machining.

Also the peak efficiency of the M62 is around 5500 to 7500 RPM at a 1.4 pressure ratio.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

I say M90 :thumbup: Tire burner for sure.

I mean you have the room


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> I say M90 :thumbup: Tire burner for sure.
> 
> I mean you have the room


:thumbup: I like the way you think!!
Oh yes the room is on my side, but I might have to get rid of the A/C though


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

U_know_me said:


> How do you like the Pflow? Is he OBDI, I assume going standalone is probably the best way to go for obdI becasue it gives us everything we are missing.


To tell u the truth idk i bought a mk3 golf with aba already chipped drove it maybe 5 or 6 hrs it sat for awhile then i pulled the motor to put it in a mk2 jetta but now im putting it in a b3 wagon that had a 16v that went bad and i dont have the money atm to fix so once i get the aba in a car and can actualy drive it ill be able to see how it is

Yes hes obdI and going standalone u should be able to get more power then if u got a chip unless it was custom right?? So far his s/c setup is pretty cheap he got good deals on all the parts for it i think he has maybe 1200 into it but deals like that are hard to find unless u know alot of good ppl and its got me wondering if its worth building a custom setup which to me would be worth any amount of money it gunna cost to do but if it cost more then a ns s/c kit and makes the same or less amount of power then i would rather buy a kit that bolts right up with little hassle and saves hella time then i might do that but it would be lame

I like the idea of using a m90 espicialy cuz i have a friend with one sitting around so i could get it cheap, but what would be a good way to mount it?? In front of the motor or like how ns designed theres


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> Yes hes obdI and going standalone u should be able to get more power then if u got a chip unless it was custom right??


Going standalone gives you unlimited tuning capabilities, the only issue is knowing how to use it, what to adjust, and when to do so. Also you will need to become good friends with a shop that has a dyno, thats were you will gain the most benefit. 




db3ck said:


> So far his s/c setup is pretty cheap he got good deals on all the parts for it i think he has maybe 1200 into it but deals like that are hard to find unless u know alot of good ppl and its got me wondering if its worth building a custom setup which to me would be worth any amount of money it gunna cost to do but if it cost more then a ns s/c kit and makes the same or less amount of power then i would rather buy a kit that bolts right up with little hassle and saves hella time then i might do that but it would be lame
> 
> I like the idea of using a m90 espicialy cuz i have a friend with one sitting around so i could get it cheap, but what would be a good way to mount it?? In front of the motor or like how ns designed theres



Honestly doing something from scratch that no one has ever done/documented is more than likely going to cost you a lot more than you expect. Mark my words, any project you do will cost more than you expect, its just the name of the game. A complete kit is going to be more consistent and less unexpected cost, but you will still have odds and ends that you just dont expect that will come up. 

I feel that if you knew of a good spot for the M90 to mount, get brackets made off of knowing what dimensions you need, run the s/c pre throttle body, and use an inexpensive chip, you could do it pretty cheap. I feel going that route more than likely you would get a stage I low power result but in theory it would work.

With your question on mounting, yes on the front of the engine is going to be the best position because of the size. If you do something similar to the style of the N/S kit your going to be getting into a lot of fabrication and a lot of time and money invested into it. Mldouthi is currently working on one and has not said exactly how much the cost is but from the looks of it I am pretty sure its going to be the largest cost and use of time on the build.

I am thinking that mounting would be similar to the pics on page 1 with the MiniCooper charger. Due to the size I have a feeling that some manipulation would have to be had with the coolant system/ radiator as well.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

So if i go this route then ill probly get a chip unless my buddy can help me out with standalone

To make the m90 pre throttle body do u just block off the spot where a throttle body would go and then make a plate that u can attach piping to, to run to a ic and then back to the actual throttle body??

I think making it sit kinda behind the motor would be cool but the cost imo wouldnt be worth it unless i had all the tools and knowledge to make it so ill probly just run it pre throttle body to make it less complicated


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## Jh0104 (Jul 15, 2010)

i like the idea of the m90 on an aba.

gm used the m90 on almost all w-body cars like the bonneville ssei and the grand prix gtp. the most common is the gen 2 which is on all 97-03 grand prix gtp's and has the most aftermarket support. gen 3 was a little more efficient and created more pressure, it gave the gtp 20 more hp in 2004-08 models. the gen 3 is louder and controls heat better as well. 

zzperformance.com and the w-body store has rebuild kits and modular pulley systems for the m90 for pretty cheap, tuning gtp's has been around for a long time (i owned a 97 and an 04 gtp) :beer:


http://shop.zzperformance.com/eaton-m90-supercharger-performance.aspx

http://www.3800performance.com/Merc...ode=3800P-SC&Category_Code=PA&Product_Count=4


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## Jh0104 (Jul 15, 2010)

i think as long as you got a way to mount it and spin it, itll work. it would probably be best to mount it up front and low and spin it around where the power steering used to be or the ac used to be. you could probably run it on stock ecu and maybe even stock injectors (im sure they would be maxed out though)

as long as you route the boost bypass valve or even just use a generic recirc or blow off valve, itll work great.

the hardest part will probably be the fabrication but that should be easy with an sri like my buddy (b5blazing) is going to do. :thumbup:


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## b5blazing (Apr 30, 2011)

You could run a baseline cam chip and a piggy back air fuel controller. 
http://www.splitsec.com/
I have a split second psc1 sitting in my kitchen for my Audi. 
It allows adjusting air fuel mixture. To dail in what you need.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> So if i go this route then ill probly get a chip unless my buddy can help me out with standalone
> 
> To make the m90 pre throttle body do u just block off the spot where a throttle body would go and then make a plate that u can attach piping to, to run to a ic and then back to the actual throttle body??


pretty much, I have heard that having the tb post s/c makes is louder, because of the engine actually pulling on the sc more than if the tb was before. To me it doesnt make any difference on how much wine it makes.


Jh0104 said:


> i like the idea of the m90 on an aba.
> 
> gm used the m90 on almost all w-body cars like the bonneville ssei and the grand prix gtp. the most common is the gen 2 which is on all 97-03 grand prix gtp's and has the most aftermarket support. gen 3 was a little more efficient and created more pressure, it gave the gtp 20 more hp in 2004-08 models. the gen 3 is louder and controls heat better as well.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: this is also another reason why i like it as well, I love the fact they are common and a lot of support. makes it easier on the pocket book.


Jh0104 said:


> i think as long as you got a way to mount it and spin it, itll work. it would probably be best to mount it up front and low and spin it around where the power steering used to be or the ac used to be. you could probably run it on stock ecu and maybe even stock injectors (im sure they would be maxed out though)
> 
> as long as you route the boost bypass valve or even just use a generic recirc or blow off valve, itll work great.
> 
> the hardest part will probably be the fabrication but that should be easy with an sri like my buddy (b5blazing) is going to do. :thumbup:


Yep you pretty much nailed it!


b5blazing said:


> You could run a baseline cam chip and a piggy back air fuel controller.
> http://www.splitsec.com/
> I have a split second psc1 sitting in my kitchen for my Audi.
> It allows adjusting air fuel mixture. To dail in what you need.


 :thumbup: great idea here, you will have to let me know how you like it once its on your audi. i like this because i think this is one of the limits of obdI


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

mldouthi said:


> Water meth as b5blazing said, but personally I wouldnt really on something that can run out.
> 
> awic and meth injection :thumbup:


I have a 5 gallon meth tank!!!


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

jettred3 said:


> I have a 5 gallon meth tank!!!


That still runs out 

I had a friend with a giant meth tank also in his 800+awhp sti and he ran out quite often.


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## justin_6649 (Aug 19, 2007)

keep the updates coming, this is a good thread! :thumbup:


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

So i talked to my buddy who has the m90 sitting around and he said 55 befor the 20th or 75 so if i can come up with the money soon im getting it he said its in really good shape and doesnt make any funny noises

so i need some ideas on how to make it work like do i get a 2.75 size pulley find a way to mount it in front of the motor and how i should run the ic piping how hard will it be to make the plate to attach ic piping


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Go with the 2.8 pulley so you dont need to machine the snout. And you arent loosing that much in rpms.


If you are wanting to run a air to air intercooler system I would try to mount it in the fashion shown on the first images in this thread.

So you will need a mounting bracket, s/c to round adaptor. and then plumbing.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

mldouthi said:


> Go with the 2.8 pulley so you dont need to machine the snout. And you arent loosing that much in rpms.
> 
> 
> If you are wanting to run a air to air intercooler system I would try to mount it in the fashion shown on the first images in this thread.
> ...


Ok thanks, what if i run a mkIV intake could i just route the piping the other direction and would a smic be as effective as a fmic what about injectors and what kinda chip should i get or will my current pflow chip work


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

I dont know much about the aba motor. But if you are building a custom setup you can run the piping where ever you want. 

The only restriction with a side mount is size. If you look through some sites that sell intercoolers, they will tell what hp they are rated for. That is a good estimate of what size you will need, without doing the math.

again I dont know much about the tunes. but I would suggest getting a different tune. One made for boost.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> Ok thanks, what if i run a mkIV intake could i just route the piping the other direction and would a smic be as effective as a fmic what about injectors and what kinda chip should i get or will my current pflow chip work


The MKIV 2.0 manifold has the same TB location as the stocker so it will be the same. I would do what Mldouthi says below as far as pulley size and routing. As far as injectors stock may work but if you want to go with 40# Green Giants injectors that will be an upgrade from stock. Your pflow should work it would at least be worth trying it out, but it depends on what it was originally made for. usually the chips are made for f/i or n/a.



mldouthi said:


> Go with the 2.8 pulley so you dont need to machine the snout. And you arent loosing that much in rpms.
> If you are wanting to run a air to air intercooler system I would try to mount it in the fashion shown on the first images in this thread.
> So you will need a mounting bracket, s/c to round adaptor. and then plumbing.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

Just wanted to update the Data for you, running an M90 with a 2.8 S/C Pulley


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

U_know_me said:


> The MKIV 2.0 manifold has the same TB location as the stocker so it will be the same. I would do what Mldouthi says below as far as pulley size and routing. As far as injectors stock may work but if you want to go with 40# Green Giants injectors that will be an upgrade from stock. Your pflow should work it would at least be worth trying it out, but it depends on what it was originally made for. usually the chips are made for f/i or n/a.


The mkIV tb points toward the ds the mk3 points to the ps 
The pflow was made for n/a or well thats what i think it was made for
Ill look take a look at the injectors and ill look whats out there as far as f/i chips go and check out price and how well it would work with the setup

I looked at c2 and there stage 1 is capabale of 250hp with a 70mm maf and bosch 42# injectors seem like it would be perfect for the setup even with a cam it should still be good but $300 is alittle much


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> I looked at c2 and there stage 1 is capabale of 250hp with a 70mm maf and bosch 42# injectors seem like it would be perfect for the setup even with a cam it should still be good but $300 is alittle much


I love how you added the second line and blindsided me lol..... snail edit...



911_fan said:


> Ideally, you want a split duration cam.....smaller intake and larger exhaust (like a Piper 264. Has a 256 intake and a 264 exhaust) But finding a split duration cam is hard, and when you DO find one, its well above $200. TT and Autotech sell reverse split duration cams (intake larger than the exhaust) like the TT 260/256, TT268/260 and the Autotech 260/256, but those are set up for a turbo application. Best to stick with a cam with a high lobe separating angle (112*-113*). THe Autotech 270 is a good candidate, as well as a Neuspeed 268, and TT 266*. Any one of those would work well in a supercharged motor.


This is some good info on looking into cams with a s/c application that was posted in another thread. Remember with Supercharged we want split duration NOT Reverse Split.. Basically think of us doing the opposite f/i to the engine that a turbo does.

I am going to do some additional research today on different tuning/ecu options for this type of build. I believe we have the s/c data down pretty good so I think the next step is going to be Fuel delivery and ECU.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

U_know_me said:


> I love how you added the second line and blindsided me lol..... snail edit...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol i posted then went looking and thought i would add what i found 


Well if ur running the s/c pre thorttle body does that still come in to effect and could u get away with running a 272 cam


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

*2009 Was a good year*

I ran across some great great stuff from 2009 from people that are no longer active members  ..

This was on a twin charged Corrado, I believe that the engine sits back further giving more room in the Corrado. From the limited posts I could find I believe this is a M45 S/C, it gives a lot of good references for mounting, and I love the bracket that was created for it. 









This is his monitoring setup. Again in a Corrado, but would be a similar application.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> Well if ur running the s/c pre thorttle body does that still come in to effect and could u get away with running a 272 cam


I dont think the TB location makes a big difference on the engine side (cam choice), only the a/f monitoring and the s/c bypass. I could be wrong, someone please correct me if so


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

**Tuning ABA**



U_know_me said:


> Going standalone gives you unlimited tuning capabilities, the only issue is knowing how to use it, what to adjust, and when to do so. Also you will need to become good friends with a shop that has a dyno, thats were you will gain the most benefit.


To correct myself, a dyno is an option but from what I have learned and describe below its not the only way. :thumbup:

Ok after doing several hours of research I cam up with a lot of options and ways to do things. Obviously using a chip from someone like C2 is the easiest way, but those are made as a generic for the "masses" to use and not for your particular setup.

I found a lot of information from an active members posts :B4S: AKA BrendanSmall, and want to be sure to mention that he put in a lot of work on this information. 

B4S with the help of some others came up with all the needed information in a fourm called ECUCONNECTIONS for tuning an ABA OBDI, and many basics to be learned to advance to OBDII.

From what I gather if you want to be able to real time tune an OBDI ABA you need the following. A wideband 02 sensor, use "TunerPro Software" , vag-com software, an ebay vag-com cable, and Ostrich 2.0 Software (from moates.net) to actually upload from the ecu. 

Going this route is not only very risky but also takes a lot of time, skill, and patience to get it right, but would be the best in tuning and the most accurate. B4S explains and documents pretty much every step to how this task is completed in this thread at ECUCONNECTIONS.... You will need to make a username & create a password in order to access any of the information. I recommend reading through all the dialog and see if its even something you would consider getting into before posting anything to actually download links. Page 13 has a PDF of a guide that B4S obviously put a lot of work into to explain tuning an OBDI ABA. 

Personally I am going to go this rout as I believe its the most beneficial as well as only costs around $200 bucks.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

How did u figure out it would only cost $200??


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> How did u figure out it would only cost $200??


Well I should have said, $200 not including the wideband.. The ostrich software is 170 and the cable is 30, roughly.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

So from my understandings u can tune the stock ecu with a few add on parts to it??


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> So from my understandings u can tune the stock ecu with a few add on parts to it??


Yes, you can burn your own chips, but it requires replacing the chip every time you want to make a change, although this method is much cheaper it doesnt seem very realistic. Or you can purchase the Ostrich software to tune on the fly. The wide band would be separate all on its own, giving its own mapping.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Ostrich seems like the way to go then or a complete standalone setup but it doesnt really seem needed if this other way is just as affective


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> Ostrich seems like the way to go then or a complete standalone setup but it doesnt really seem needed if this other way is just as affective


True, but I need to look into if a standalone would include or need wideband. From what I see you can get away without it when making low power numbers, you get some reading from the stock o2 in the ecu but it is not very accurate. Wideband is expensive ($200+) but is a must when you get higher in the numbers.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Ok that makes sense look in to it and post what u find


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Howdy. I was messaged by the OP about helping with info, so I'll gladly lend a hand where I can . 

Basically, the Ostrich 2.0 from Moates.net is a physical device that replaces the chip, and you plug your laptop into it. Then you upload the chip file into that device, essentially fooling the ecu into thinking the chip is there. Then, you use TunerPro software (FREEWARE! ) to tune on the fly. It's great stuff, and once you get the hang of it, it's no harder than tuning any other interface...in fact it's a bit easier since you only need to touch a couple things to make a good tune. Standalone means you need to tune everything, start up maps, cold start enrichment, etc etc. 

I had an 83 Rabbit running an ABA-T that I tuned myself. It was running stock everything, and some 356cc injectors. I never dynoed it, but after making a few small changes to the bin file (the name for the file on the chip), it ran like a dream in all conditions. I sold the car to a local guy, and he's been driving it like he stole it for the past 7-8 months, lol. Not a single issue . A supercharger tune would be even easier to work with, since it's a more linear power delivery.

Here are the files you'll need (after you download tunerpro, of course):
-This is the XDF file, which is a template file used by tunerpro to interpret the stock chip file into maps like standalone: http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/OBD1 ABA DIY Tuning/OBD1 ABA GENERIC.xdf

-This is the 'bin' file for the stock ABA (the one I used most often anyway, there are three of them. All files work in all ECUs): http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/OBD1 ABA DIY Tuning/ABA_OBD1_AE.bin

-This is a PDF that explains how to tune this nonsense, lol: http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/OBD1 ABA DIY Tuning/DIY_ABA_MAPPING.pdf

Remember, 'right-click-save-as' folks, or you'll get a lot of gobbledeygook .

I'll subscribe to this thread, so if anyone has any questions I can answer when I check back in . The link in my sig also has a thread from the Vortex that's a lot of good info too. TIGninja is the guy who started it, and he shared a lot of his info with me, so without him I would never have been able to get this going. Credit where credit is due .

Oh yeah, OBD1 only. OBD2 is a bit more complex, and the version used in the ABAs was only around for a couple years so the info available isn't the best. The Mk4 stuff is much easier to work with, because it's everywhere. They also jump to 16bit processing with OBD2, so there's no live-tuning available without spending a few thousand dollars on very specific hardware .


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

B4S thanks again for the great info :thumbup: This is going to be a life saver! 


B4S said:


> Oh yeah, OBD1 only. OBD2 is a bit more complex, and the version used in the ABAs was only around for a couple years so the info available isn't the best. The Mk4 stuff is much easier to work with, because it's everywhere. They also jump to 16bit processing with OBD2, so there's no live-tuning available without spending a few thousand dollars on very specific hardware .


This makes sense as to why people actually convert to OBDI to save some cash.




B4S said:


> I had an 83 Rabbit running an ABA-T that I tuned myself. It was running stock everything, and some 356cc injectors. I never dynoed it, but after making a few small changes to the bin file (the name for the file on the chip), it ran like a dream in all conditions. I sold the car to a local guy, and he's been driving it like he stole it for the past 7-8 months, lol. Not a single issue . A supercharger tune would be even easier to work with, since it's a more linear power delivery.


On your Rabbit did you have a wideband 02, and what are your thoughts on the need for one? Only asking because keeping cost down is what I am trying to achieve within this thread.


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

There is an RSC kit from RUF on the market that you can purchase brand new for somewhere around $3-5k+ depending on charger options and if you get the water injection too. They really only market for VR6 from what I found a bit back when looking at upgrades and replacements for my Z-Engineering kits. 
http://www.ruf-kompressoren.com/wb/pages/en/products/rsc-supercharger.php?lang=EN
http://www.carlicious-parts.com/epa...th=/Shops/62028049/Categories/Kompressor_Kits

I was told the charger is a direct bolt-on for ABA if you have the Z-Engineering brackets, but you only need the larger bracket and spacers/threaded rods. It's basically an upgraded and modified Z-Engineering charger. This guy is in Germany and deals for them. He also makes upgraded impellers with more wings for around 17+ psi: http://forums.vwvortex.com/member.php?384336-napkin
I gave him some scans of my brackets, but don't know if he ever got them fabricated.

I've seen several posts in the past where people were playing with the M62 and M90 on ABA's. More work/money than it's worth IMO unless you can find the chargers cheap.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

U_know_me said:


> B4S thanks again for the great info :thumbup: This is going to be a life saver!
> 
> This makes sense as to why people actually convert to OBDI to save some cash.
> 
> ...


 IMO, a wideband is essential equipment for tuning any forced induction setup. It should be priority #1. They are available around the $200 mark now, which is actually cheap compared to when they first came out years back. A buddy paid $1200 for his first FJO wideband about 10 years ago, lol.

Without it, priority #1 could become finding a new engine .


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

zero. said:


> There is an RSC kit from RUF on the market that you can purchase brand new for somewhere around $3-5k+ depending on charger options and if you get the water injection too. They really only market for VR6 from what I found a bit back when looking at upgrades and replacements for my Z-Engineering kits.
> http://www.ruf-kompressoren.com/wb/pages/en/products/rsc-supercharger.php?lang=EN
> http://www.carlicious-parts.com/epa...th=/Shops/62028049/Categories/Kompressor_Kits
> 
> ...


Thanks for the good info, and I would like to find out more about your brackets your describing. What are you referring to or do you have your own thread with the info? 

I have seen some posts of limited info towards this subject but also seems to be a little different than what I am to achieve. $3-5k is the biggest reason why I am trying to go another rout. I am sure some have succeeded and some have failed at this but I believe that with the proper research, planning, and execution this can be pulled off. If not I want to at least have well documented proof that it will not work and then come up with a solution. An S/C kit for 3 to 5K just seems outrageous to me and thats why I am spending time and money on this. Some may argue that if there was a solution that was less expensive then a major company would build a kit and sell it. I personally believe that because of the lack of interest but some, and the mass availability of turbo's that companies have decided to not spend the money in developing something that would potentially never sell. 

Currently M90's can be had for $250 to $400 with lots of rebuild support and options because of the mass use on GM and other car manufactures. It not only is close to a perfect fit for the ABA but its one of the more common s/c's. As well as from what I have seen it is close to the easiest to work on and find parts for.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

B4S said:


> IMO, a wideband is essential equipment for tuning any forced induction setup. It should be priority #1. They are available around the $200 mark now, which is actually cheap compared to when they first came out years back. A buddy paid $1200 for his first FJO wideband about 10 years ago, lol.
> 
> Without it, priority #1 could become finding a new engine .


Wide band added to the list :thumbup: I trust your opinion and your explanation makes perfect sense.


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

U_know_me said:


> Thanks for the good info, and I would like to find out more about your brackets your describing. What are you referring to or do you have your own thread with the info?


These are my Z-Engineering chargers:









With that RSC charger, you don't need the smaller "inner charger" bracket that bolts to the charger because it's integrated and part of the new RSC design. 









This G60 thread has a lot of info on Eaton's: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2521071-Eaton-guys-represent...


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

zero. said:


> These are my Z-Engineering chargers
> This G60 thread has a lot of info on Eaton's:
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2521071-Eaton-guys-represent...


:thumbup: looks great, just wish they were not so expensive.  Thanks for that link, I had stumbled across it a while back and could not for the life of me find it again.


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## Jh0104 (Jul 15, 2010)

zero. said:


> These are my Z-Engineering chargers:


those things look great!


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

Jh0104 said:


> those things look great!


If only they ran great. The one on the left is in pieces for rebuild and the one on the right seized. I had to cut that beefier welded tab off the right charger because PO had it welded to both sides and I couldn't open housing to rebuild. I paid $600-700 for one and $1200 for the other. Both were complete kits with piping, fueling, etc. and supposedly rebuilt, but had bad bearings, one broken alternator bracket, and one damaged drive pulley that doesn't hold a bearing. 

They seem easy to rebuild and the charger bearings are around $200. The rest of the bearings for the pulleys are all the same size and cheap. It was fun when I ran it and pushed around 8psi. The RSC is a much better design than the old z's, but if you can find a cogged drive pulley for an old z, it'd probably be about the same. The ribbed drive pulley has slippage if not tensioned perfectly and if you over tighten, the bearings cook. I was going to rebuild both and maybe sell one, but parts fabrication isn't cheap. Pulley Boys wanted close to $1k to make a one-off pulley for it.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

zero. said:


> If only they ran great. I paid $600-700 for one and $1200 for the other. Both were complete kits with piping, fueling, etc. and supposedly rebuilt, but had bad bearings, one broken alternator bracket, and one damaged drive pulley that doesn't hold a bearing.


This is why although the size is much larger, I believe roots are so much better, and dat sound :laugh:. I love the super loud wine personally.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

Through my browsing I found some shots of what was done on an M62 for the air exit to the TB..


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Thats a good idea but wouldnt u want it to go to a ic first??


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> Thats a good idea but wouldnt u want it to go to a ic first??


The pic is more of a reference of how the flange off the s/c was done, but yes you are correct if you chose to do an I/C you would want it come off in the opposite direction.


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

*Quote from Eaton thread*

I found a good comparison between Lysholm and Eaton.. Made Eaton look even better :thumbup:


swingwing205 said:


> I'm going to chime in on the choice of chargers, it's not an apples to apples comparison. There are real advantages and disadvanatges to both the Eaton roots charger and the Lysholm twin screw charger. This is largely due to the fact that one is a compressor (Lysholm), while the ohter is a displacer (Eaton).
> Lysholm is better for upper mid range to high end RPM, and it's absolutely amazing to be able to get very close to high psi turbo boost levels out of a belt driven charger. Great of modders trying to get the upper end out of their cars.
> On the down side: It is more expensive, requires oil in feed, and robs tons of crank HP, although if you're making so much more power it kind of cancels the latter out. Main bearing wear then could become an issue sooner than expected, not like the G60 isn't already hard enough it seems on those.
> Eaton is better for lower range to mid range end RPM, and installed properly, the boost is cold and fat. Great for someone looking to get better torque response off little pedal, and rally race conditions because of helping torque responce.
> ...


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Good info there, knowing that the eaton is good for low to mid range is good because thats what i want so this is looking good


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## Jh0104 (Jul 15, 2010)

U_know_me said:


> This is why although the size is much larger, I believe roots are so much better, and dat sound :laugh:. I love the super loud wine personally.


me too, i love the blower whine :beer:


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Any more new info or updates on some one doing this


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

db3ck said:


> Any more new info or updates on some one doing this


I am currently working on a complete parts list for the build that I plan to post soon. It is separated by each different category so everyone can see what part they want to spend on if they want to make the modification.

I have not fully explained my build plans so I will go ahead and enlighten everyone. 
It will be broken up into 4 major parts that will be broken down, documented and explained in detail as progress is made. The removal & install each of the below will be performed by myself and the help of some good friends. It all will be shown here as well. The only part I will not be performing myself will be the balancing of the rods & crank as well as Decking of the head & block if needed. 

1:ABA Head Rebuild/Refresh
2:ABA Block (Bottom End)Rebuild/Refresh with balanced rotating assembly. 
3:Supercharger/InterCooler install & Tuning
4:Still Debating between the below due to leftover funds of the above
>Transmission Swap to 02A or 02J
>020 Rebuild and with taller 4th & 5th gears. 
(Both with upgraded Clutch & Flywheel) 

Unfortunately I will not be getting started on the project till after the holidays. Unlike most that start something and never finish, this will finish, either a failure or with epic success. Either way it will be explained in detail on here for the world to see.


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## db3ck (Sep 2, 2011)

Sounds like a awesome plan man cant wait to see it


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## automan89 (Sep 17, 2007)

U_know_me said:


> The removal & install each of the below will be performed by *myself* and will be shown here as well. The only part I will not be performing myself will be the balancing of the rods & crank as well as Decking of the head & block if needed.


this made me lol.
you can never do a complete anything without calling me :laugh:


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## U_know_me (Aug 3, 2012)

U_know_me said:


> The removal & install each of the below will be performed by myself and the help of some good friends. It all will be shown here as well.


Fixed it :laugh:



automan89 said:


> this made me lol.
> you can never do a complete anything without calling me :laugh:


:thumbup: This is so true, I hate working alone :nohomo:


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## TwCabby2002 (Aug 26, 2018)

I actually just got done putting an eaton m90 on a 1.8l 8v. I havn't seen a 2l block in person so I don't really know the differences between the 1.8 and the 2.0. I obviously had to make a manifold for my application but if you run an eaton m62 you can buy a billit manifold for a couple hundred bucks. I can post some pictures if that would be any help.


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

Post it up. I'd like to see the setup. Also where can you purchase the manifold?


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## TwCabby2002 (Aug 26, 2018)

zero. said:


> Post it up. I'd like to see the setup. Also where can you purchase the manifold?


Sorry this is a little late. I custom made a manifold by cutting the shape of the bottom of the supercharger into a plate of 1/4in steel. I then cut out a square on the bottom of the plate and then welded a box around the hole and welded a pipe on to it to fit a charge pipe. And to mount it I put two arms coming off the manifold connecting to the two holes of the front of the engine that you would hook an engine lift to. And for the belt setup I went to my local junk yard and stole the whole accessory system off of an aba. Unfortunately I have the sc off as of now because i need a standalone and I don't have any good pictures of it. I do have a few videos of it running on my Instagram though @tristanjwendt


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