# Replace Torque Converter, or Entire Transmission?



## toaph (Nov 27, 2012)

So when I get up to speed in my Phaeton and hold my foot steady on the throttle, the engine will surge in pulses almost like I'm lightly pumping the gas. Last Fall I brought it to a local guy who diagnosed it as a problem with the torque converter. I followed his logic and trust his judgment. He gave me two options: replace the torque converter and be done with it, or replace the entire transmission and be assured there will be no future problems there. I am inclined to just replace the torque converter and take my chances, but I don't want to be victimized by my own frugality. I'd be interested to hear what other people had to say.

-- Toaph


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Depending on the relative costs, it's probably worth flushing the ATF first. If you search the forum, you'll find plenty of information about transmission flare and surge, and I seem to recall somebody changing the torque converter.


----------



## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

I too have surging in low rpm when cold. Once warm or over 2k rpm, the surge is gone. I've heard of a valve body rebuild taking care of the problem, but not interested in going that route yet.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Toaph:

What type of engine do you have - the V8 or the W12? Reason I ask is that there are two totally different transmissions involved, the V8 uses a 6 speed and the W12 uses a 5 speed.

Michael


----------



## toaph (Nov 27, 2012)

Oops, sorry, I have a 2004 V8. What the mechanic said was that the internal clutch is slipping, which is what's causing the surging.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

*Replace torque converter, or entire transmission? .......... check the valve body first!!!*

Hello Toaph,
Replacing the entire transmission may not be necessary. I replaced the TC on my car (2004 V8 - 100,000 miles) last year. I replaced only the TC and the valve body because there was no evidence that the transmission "core" was in trouble. By "evidence" I mean that each gear ran smoothly when selected in TIP, there were no external leaks and there were no metal filaments or other foreign objects in the transmission pan.

The "pulsing" may well be coming from the torque converter. IF you are satisfied that your mechanic has scanned and/or tested for (and ruled out) any other possible causes,

1) have your mechanic hook up the VAG-com, go for a drive, if the TC lock-up clutch is slipping it will be particularily easy to identify in top gear - the scanner will register the opening and closing even if it is very small ie: 1/64 of a second. The TC clutch is designed to slip..... but not too much and certainly not when the trans is in top gear (except in "kick-down" mode).

2) drain the ATF - see what comes out and check the pan magnets for metal filaments (mine had NO metal filaments, just sludge on the magnets). The oil will probably be black and may smell "burnt". But, if there are no signs of distress beyond dirty oil, and the transmission isn't leaking externally anywhere else, then you can be confident that the transmission itself is doing OK.

3) This part gets a little tricky.......... replacing the ATF will improve the "pressure" and may improve the feel of the lock-up clutch. But if the clutch has been slipping more than it should, you can bet that it neeeds more than just new ATF to survive in the longer term. Which brings me to the valve body........

4) Refurbish the valve body and then repeat the "lock-up" test. If the slippage in top gear is gone then you'll know that a solenoid in the VB was the source of the problem. Check out www.sonnax.com for useful info on valve bodies. If that solves the problem then you have just saved yourself the expense of parts and labour to replace the TC ie: the transmission doesn't have to come out.......!!

If the TC does have to be replaced you have lots of "parts" options (including replacing the entire transmission). Replacing the VB and the TC on my car cost 3,600C$ parts and labour. There are lots of great posts on the forum which can help you decide which option is best for you - for example one post says you can get a complete trans and TC for 4k$, yet another says that VW sells a TC for 200.00$. In any case, check out the threads regarding V8 and/or 6 speed transmissions..... there is a lot of info there which may help you to refine your decision.

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Sacha:

From your price I assume the task was performed by an independent transmission shop and the engine was NOT removed as VW normally does. I ask this because what most Phaeton owners fear are transmission problems and/or air suspension failures. If transmission replacement can be performed without engine removal that saves almost $2k and avoids potential collateral damage from such an extensive repair. With the recent information about strut replacement done one or two at a time rather than the in totality as has been the accepted procedure for some of the early models, the expense of owning an aging Phaeton is becoming more palatable. 

Glad to hear your repair went well.

Jim X


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

Hello Jxander,
You're right - the transmission came out without having to drop the engine. My mechanic is an independant general mechanic (not a transmission shop) who specializes in European cars and who has a lot of experience with Audi's. They know their way around air suspensions as well....... it is a great relief to know that, as we drive into unwarrantied territory, there are reasonable solutions to any major repairs that may be necessary. 

And this forum plays a key role in the peace-of-mind department for me..... and for others too, I'm sure!!

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## toaph (Nov 27, 2012)

So my mechanic wound up pulling the engine out as part of the torque converter replacement. I had already instructed him to replace the timing belt. You would not believe how much slack there was in it! It's a miracle that it didn't jump teeth, or for that matter that it would spin the water pump enough to keep the engine cool. I have a little video at http://youtu.be/UbA6WdrQaQY.


----------



## jenvee828 (Jun 25, 2011)

*Similar issue...*

Hi guys,

I wanted to revive this thread because I have a similar issue on my '04 V8 Phaeton, ~135k mi on the clock. On chilly mornings (below 50F) the car will start and run great, as usual, but driving it straight out of the garage will result in rpms all over the board. Mind you, this is usually at low speed in stop-and-go traffic just outside my neighborhood, so definitely under 50mph, and work is a mere 4.5mi away. 

If I let the car warm up for 10 mins or so inside the garage, the issue is drastically reduced or nonexistent. Also, on days above 65F, the car is perfectly normal straight out of the gate. In fact, I've been driving around since May with absolutely no problems each morning, but I know come fall I'll be in the same boat. Transmission fluid and filter(s) changed in spring with no effect on the issue, good or bad.

So, I'd like to know your experience with this problem. Which one of the following ultimately ends up being the resolution?

1. Valve body rebuild
2. Valve body replacement
3. Torque converter replacement
4. Transmission replacement
5. Other?

Associated cost reporting is also appreciated. This will help me choose a shop wisely.

Many thanks.


----------



## jenvee828 (Jun 25, 2011)

*It's fall again...*

The leaves are falling, the temperature is dropping, and this little issue is hinting at cropping up again. 

Any permanent resolution found, for those who have been through it? Take a look at my post above for more detail. Completely goes away during summer; I just start up and drive with no warm-up.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If I remember correctly, flare shifting is usually caused by pressure problems in the valve body, which is good news because it's relatively easy to get to and can be refurbished if you can find someone you trust to do it. If it were me, I'd also check the fluid level, the hard downshifts improved on mine after I removed the excess fluid.


----------



## pgoober (Jan 4, 2009)

*Changed my Torque converter a few thousand miles ago (150k ish)*

Replaced the converter and symptoms similar to yours vanished. 

I have not rebuilt the valve body, but I did look into it.

I did consider the full transmission option, but ultimately went for the converter only. 

1. Was cheaper
2. problem was likely isolated and did not have to do with the rest of the transmission. I'm not big on replacing working parts.
3. Seemed likely that the rest of the ZF internals would survive ~100k more miles.

-BD


----------



## jenvee828 (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks for confirming, both of you. This helps.

Last year, VW couldn't reproduce when I had it in for other diagnostics (too warm of a morning) and the transmission shop wouldn't investigate until it was diagnosed by another mechanic as transmission-related (instead of a speed sensor or some other electrical issue). Had the fluid flushed for good measure, but still the same. Now I feel a little more confident about pressing for transmission diagnostic. Thanks again!


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Whatever it is, it definitely sounds transmission-related. The other option for diagnosis is to contact ZF, they were very helpful with mine.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Our Phaeton has 205,000 miles on the clock. Recently the car started noticeably shuddering, usually at about 40-50MPH. Sometimes goes away quickly, other times it doesn't go away. The service tech has advised it is most likely the torque converter. I called the authorized ZF transmission parts dealer (Eriksson Industries, Old Saybrook, CT), and they can rebuild the torque converter for ~$260, in two days. A complete transmission rebuild is ~$2900 and it comes back with new fluid in it, takes one week. As we are fairly close, Eriksson will pick up and return the torque converter or transmission to us. 

It appears there are no new Phaeton transmissions available, only rebuilts. 

This is a hard decision, but selling or trading in the Phaeton with an obvious transmission problem, is essentially a write-off. A few weeks ago, we became convinced the 2019 Genesis G90 AWD would be our replacement car, but none are available yet, and service on our Hyundai Elantra has not been very good.

With the fixed labor costs of the transmission replacement, we are most likely opting for the full transmission replacement, and then keep driving the Phaeton into next year. 

Jim


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

That's a pretty good deal on the rebuild. I believe mine was around $4500, plus another $1500 or so labor, total was around $6500 (warranty). For $2900, I would also do it.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Good to know, Martin. Here is some more information:


The VW dealer parts dept trans stickers at over $5K. They would cut a better deal, don't know how much better.
The parts department tech advised the suffix "X" on the trans part number means it is remanufactured.
The rebuild comes filled with transmission fluid.
If you are having the service done in Connecticut, the pickup and delivery is no charge; don't know about pickup and delivery charges for other states 
Eriksson are ZF factory authorized, and have what looks like a good warranty. 
Ours is a V8. If you have a W12, you could call, and they will most likely give you a price right away.
Also, we need to consider logistics, as the car has to hang out for a week or so until the rebuilt trans comes back
​.

I'll report on the result in a couple weeks.


Jim


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

When you get it back, I would advise that you check the fluid level. Mine was installed with too much and has performed much better since I removed the excess. My car was from CT, I bought it in Port Chester.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Thanks, Martin. Will do. By the way, that $1500 labor rate for the tranny install in Texas is great. Almost double that here!


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It may have been nearer $2k, it was a while ago. Not sure if it's something to do with it being warranty work. Since then I've found a place near by called Eagle Transmissions who apparently routinely service ZF transmissions, they had a BMW 750 transmission out when I visited, that's my plan if this transmission eventually goes tits-up.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

*Trans is out for Rebuild...*

The transmission is now at Eriksson for the rebuild. I asked the tech to look at why the loud muffler, and they advised there is a flex connection on the downpipe that is shot on both sides. Don't have a price yet, but it looks like both downpipes need to be replaced. 

On another note, since the engine is out of the car, are there any recommendations for other preventative maintenance or fixes that we should consider?

Jim


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, if you do absolutely nothing else, replace the plastic pipe inside the oil cooler from the aluminium version from Gruvenparts. It's a simple job with the engine out, and it absolutely will fail eventually.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Martin, thanks for the heads-up. Dealer has advised the plastic oil cooler tube is leaking. I ordered the Gruvenparts aluminum oil cooler tube for 2 day UPS delivery. Zero labor cost to install with engine out. 

I also opted for a new starter. I saw a Phaeton a few years ago in the shop where the engine and transmission were removed to replace the starter. I recall the starter had a broken bolt and it was a PITA to get it out.


Considering replacing the alternator, but it is kind of pricey. I have been told the alternator replacement requires removal of the engine. With +200K miles, it's probably a good thing to do.


Jim


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Haha, those plastic pipes are the height of stupidity! Ask them to show it to you, it's unbelievable that they'd put those into every single friggin' 4.2l V8 they make!

Who told you the alternator can't be removed??? That's a load of old bollocks. Changing the alternator is a simple job, the only complications are the water pipes, but they come off easily. The first thing we did when doing the oil cooler job was remove the alternator, Rick had the thing off in literally 5 minutes. You definitely shouldn't spend the money on it! Apart from anything else, I can't recall anyone posting about alternator failure on the V8. Starter motor is probably worth considering if the part isn't too expensive.

One other thing you might think about is the secondary air pump and the associated piping. Mine has just failed, and I've previously had leaking pipes replaced. I haven't looked yet from underneath, but it's probably much easier to get to with the engine out. The new Phaeton part is expensive though, >$300 compared with about $70 for the other cars (and Touareg). Whether they're actually different I don't know, I ended up buying a used one on Ebay, I'll be fitting it in the next few weeks.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Got it - I haven't seen any posts here on the alternator failing in V8s either, and, if it's easy to get in and out,.... ixnay on replacing the alternator now. 

Will check in on the secondary air pump tomorrow.

Jim


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Martin, just thought I would follow-up on the Secondary Air Pump (I'll call it the SAP) issue. With the engine out, it's easy, even for the untrained eye, to spot the SAP. The tech thought it's probably best to leave it alone for now. He advised it's pretty straight forward to remove and replace with the engine in the car. As I have encountered several relatively unexpected and expensive replacement items - the two transmission coolers, both catalytic converters, etc. - I decided to just leave the SAP as-is.

When I searched the forum, I didn't see vey many posts on the SAP. Do we know if it has been a common problem in the Phaetons? The tech said he has replaced SAPs, but I didn't ask about frequency


Jim


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info Jim. I bought a used one on Ebay with all the piping, and took a look from underneath while I was changing the oil at the weekend. It looks as if I can get at it with the airbox and the wheel well liner removed on that side, so it shouldn't be too difficult.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Martin, that is basically what the tech said, too. 

Quick update - the transmission, and all the other parts have arrived. Still in the shop.

More news soon...

Best,
Jim


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Another thought that just occurred to me is the mounts, both motor & transmission. Mine has had a vibration at idle ever since the transmission was changed. The motor mounts should be easier to get to with the transmission out. Mine also came back with a stripped bolt on one of the transmission mounts, they'd left it so it wasn't even flush.....


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Sounds good, I'll ask, maybe too late. 

FYI - there are two aluminum transmission fluid coolers with soft, easily stripped, aluminum fittings. These are both being replaced, and they are fairly pricey.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I didn't know about those. As far as I know, they weren't replaced on mine unless they come as part of the transmission. I assume they must be the target of the air channels built into the engine cover.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Good heads-up on motor mounts, Martin. One is no good so we will replace both.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Finally got the Phaeton back yesterday. We got lots of parts replaced:


Transmission - rebuilt by Eriksson Industries
Both transmission fluid coolers
Transmission fluid lines
Left and right downpipes (catalytic converter)
Both motor mounts
Starter
Rear main seal (for engine) 
Oil cooler billet pipe (why is the OEM pipe in plastic instead of aluminum??)

Thanks to Martin for his suggestions on replacing the oil cooler billet pipe - mine was leaking, cost to replace was included in the engine and transmission removal - and replacing the motor mounts.

A quick note - the service techs advised the quality of the Eriksson rebuild and their responsiveness to questions were excellent, and if they had any transmissions to be rebuilt, they would not hesitate to send them to Eriksson. 

The next step is to drive it for a week or two and then bring it back for a service review. 

This was a big job. Our initial plan was to replace the Phaeton with the Genesis G90, but instead opted to fix Phaeton and buy a 2019 Hyundai Ioniq Plug-in Hybrid, to replace our 2005 Elantra. I have been over to the Ioniq owners forum, and the level of technical experitise and the general site organization is far, far, less useful than our Phaeton Forum. 

Jim


----------



## lelievre12 (Nov 25, 2015)

Jim,

Just wondering how your Phaeton transmission is fairing? Smooth?

Unfortunately my 2005 V8 (205K miles) is starting to hunt when cold just like all the others. Not bad yet but I guess the writing is on the wall. As the engine is also 205K and is due for a belt, I'm starting to think to change both engine and transmission for younger salvage units. Body on my Phaeton is perfect (rare Coucou Grey 4 seater) so is worth keeping. At this stage the plan is to keep the current engine/transmission running as long as it holds together.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

Thanks for asking - We have put another ~7K miles on the car since the transmission (and all the other stuff) was replaced, and the trans has performed well, smooth shifts, but I have noticed a hard shift between second and third sometimes. Invisiblewave has warned several times to check the trans fluid level, so that's to be done in the next few weeks. 

The car was built in July 2004, has 212K miles on it now. The major issues since the trans are:

1. The serpentine belt shredded and destroyed the power steering pump. The reason for shredding could have been age. In retrospect, I should have had that belt replaced when the transmission was done.

2. the roof drain lines became separated from the tubes that carry the water out - I noticed this right away so no damage to the Kessey. Fix required the typical things, and replacement of the roof drain line.

3. the wipers got stuck, and the wiper mechanism was replaced, and most likely the wiper motor, too. I will have this checked again as I now hear an annoying clicking when the wipers are running.

Other than those three items, the maintenance needs (tires, bakes, TPMS sensors, etc.) are in-line with previous years.

I also spent a tidy sum at a body shop to replace the front bumper and a host of other related plastic bits that had, over time and use, fallen apart. The front of the car looks new again. Unfortunately, due to the winters in New England, there is some on-going deterioration around the rear wheel wells...

There are a few more upgrades or fixes I'd like to make, but time and cost are delaying further actions.

As a side note, I have been pleasantly surprised by our new 2019 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV Limited Ultimate. A very nice ride. I know you need to count the electrons (around here, that's ~20cts/kWh) as well as the gas, but since we got it in January, we put over 5K miles on it, and we have filled the very small tank maybe 4 times. Most trips are less than the 29-mile all electric range. My wife hates to pump gas and I have all-electric range anxiety (w/o any plug-in recharging, in hybrid mode, Ioniq range is 648 miles on a full gas tank - that's ~52 MPG on regular gasoline).

_"I believe I can say, without fear of contradiction"_, the Ioniq forum is nowhere near the Phaeton forum in terms of content, usefulness, and entertainment - more like a slightly weird social club - I looked at the Ioniq forum for a month or two and then gave it up.

Best,
Jim


----------

