# Lots of 2.0T tuners, anyone Tune VR6?



## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

Anyone know if any of the ECU tuning companies out there will provide some performance updates for the 3.6 VR6 motor? I have seen a bunch like APR and the like for the 2.0T, but nothing came up via searching for VR6 tuners.


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## thenew3 (Jun 18, 2006)

danporges said:


> Anyone know if any of the ECU tuning companies out there will provide some performance updates for the 3.6 VR6 motor? I have seen a bunch like APR and the like for the 2.0T, but nothing came up via searching for VR6 tuners.


Tuning can do a lot for a turbo engine. Not a whole lot can be done for a NA engine like the VR6. At most 10 to 15 HP under ideal conditions.


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## danporges (Dec 31, 2017)

thenew3 said:


> Tuning can do a lot for a turbo engine. Not a whole lot can be done for a NA engine like the VR6. At most 10 to 15 HP under ideal conditions.


While the increase in power would most likely be modest, understood, there is a lot that can be done in tuning the torque curve and such. I would like to do a cold air intake or some sort of high flow filter and a mild tune just to smooth out a couple of flat spots off idle I have noticed.


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## kootenaydub (May 15, 2009)

I would look at the R36 forums to see what they've done. But like mentioned above, modest gains from tunes, yes you can change the mapping but you'll be dealing with the same power/torque. A lot of it is front loaded which you want in the Atlas as it's heavy, so you need that get up and go. And expect fuel efficiency, although not great already, to go down if you start playing around.

CAI will just be a noise maker, the box is actually pretty efficient, it's more or less and ram air style intake, a CAI will expose the filter to the general engine compartment heat. The vacuum under a NA engine is nothing compared to a turbo, where an intake can actually impede air flow. A good high flow drop in filter will get you all the gains you'll get with a CAI without the cost.

Best thing you can do for the engine is keep it tuned up, clean the air filter, change spark plugs more often, change oil, etc. and it will run for a long time with no issues.


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## 0macman0 (Nov 6, 2017)

thenew3 said:


> Tuning can do a lot for a turbo engine. Not a whole lot can be done for a NA engine like the VR6. At most 10 to 15 HP under ideal conditions.


Even 15hp would be a 5.4% increase, I would do it if the price was right.


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## 0macman0 (Nov 6, 2017)

kootenaydub said:


> I would look at the R36 forums to see what they've done. But like mentioned above, modest gains from tunes, yes you can change the mapping but you'll be dealing with the same power/torque. A lot of it is front loaded which you want in the Atlas as it's heavy, so you need that get up and go. And expect fuel efficiency, although not great already, to go down if you start playing around.
> 
> CAI will just be a noise maker, the box is actually pretty efficient, it's more or less and ram air style intake, a CAI will expose the filter to the general engine compartment heat. The vacuum under a NA engine is nothing compared to a turbo, where an intake can actually impede air flow. A good high flow drop in filter will get you all the gains you'll get with a CAI without the cost.
> 
> Best thing you can do for the engine is keep it tuned up, clean the air filter, change spark plugs more often, change oil, etc. and it will run for a long time with no issues.


Seems like the stock intake is a slick setup, agreed with all points on this vehicle


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## KarstGeo (Jan 19, 2018)

When K&N comes out with a drop-in I'll probably pick one up but I don't' think a CAI is goign to do much over a higher flow drop in but make noise on a large family vehicle.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

I just picked up a PG SEL, I also have a MK4 R32 with 3.6 swap. My R has a united motor sports tune, as I will probably do the same for my Atlas. 


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## kootenaydub (May 15, 2009)

from United Website

MK5 Golf R32 VR6 Performance Software
Stock Mk5 R32:
Gains: 15whp / 16wftlbs
$400

Seems steep for gains that will hardly be noticed by the butt dyno, but to each their own.


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## Ryan E. (Oct 1, 2002)

kootenaydub said:


> from United Website
> 
> MK5 Golf R32 VR6 Performance Software
> Stock Mk5 R32:
> ...


It’s a great tune and adapts to higher octane fuel. Combined with intake and catback its a noticeable improvement. Take it further with cams and your looking at up to 50hp more with all the above. I understand cams would be overkill but it would be cool to do if you plan on keeping long term.


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## snobrdrdan (Sep 10, 2008)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> I just picked up a PG SEL, I also have a MK4 R32 with 3.6 swap. My R has a united motor sports tune, as I will probably do the same for my Atlas.





kootenaydub said:


> from United Website
> 
> MK5 Golf R32 VR6 Performance Software
> Stock Mk5 R32:
> ...


Before you start going down that road....UM doesn't have a tune for the newer 3.6's ECU, like found in the NMS Passat as well, which has been out since 2012.
_(APR does for the Passat though, but the gains are pretty minimal)_


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## TeamAtlas (Oct 17, 2017)

> It’s a great tune and adapts to higher octane fuel.


How do you suppose it does this? 

Furthermore, if there's 15 hp left in this motor, it should probably be left, since you know, VW left it. 

You can do a tune of an NA motor for higher octane, since your knock limit will move (provided you're able to provide both more fuel and more air and that the cooling system/head/block design is good). Fuel/air will be held stoic in most cases by the O2 sensors (regardless of octane) and only maybe during WOT will your engine go open loop. If you don't knock, it may allow the limit to move slightly. "Tuning" the tables to provide more fuel or run rich does you absolutely no good. This engine has a great intake and exhaust and a restrictive head. Unfortunately the head is full of fuel injectors so good luck to anyone who tries to improve that. Maybe a little more flow from a valve job, but not enough to be worth pulling the head.


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## 0macman0 (Nov 6, 2017)

TeamAtlas said:


> How do you suppose it does this?


Ignition timing advance and possibly camshaft angles to take advantage of the higher compression ratio. Fuel will stay relatively constant. 


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## TeamAtlas (Oct 17, 2017)

That's what you might do if you knew you had different fuel.

How does your ECM KNOW that it has different fuel? Which sensor does that?


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## 0macman0 (Nov 6, 2017)

TeamAtlas said:


> That's what you might do if you knew you had different fuel.
> 
> How does your ECM KNOW that it has different fuel? Which sensor does that?


It doesn’t, you tune it for high octane, you feed it high octane.

I suppose you could modify the knock tables but that is too risky IMO


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## TeamAtlas (Oct 17, 2017)

That's my point. Guy said it "adapts" to different fuels and that could only be true if it knew what fuel it was using. 

People seem to think their motors can "tell" if they put in high octane and they simply can't. 

Futhermore, increasing octane in an NA motor only benefits you in moving the knock limit, so if you weren't operating in a knock-limited regime, you will not see a noticeable difference. With a turbo, you have more control of in-cylinder temps, so more can be gained from the octane change.


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## 0macman0 (Nov 6, 2017)

TeamAtlas said:


> That's my point. Guy said it "adapts" to different fuels and that could only be true if it knew what fuel it was using.
> 
> People seem to think their motors can "tell" if they put in high octane and they simply can't.
> 
> Futhermore, increasing octane in an NA motor only benefits you in moving the knock limit, so if you weren't operating in a knock-limited regime, you will not see a noticeable difference. With a turbo, you have more control of in-cylinder temps, so more can be gained from the octane change.


You may be right. However in our day of considerably high compressions engines running on regular, I’m very inclined to believe that most in fact are running near the knock limit in the name of efficiency and emissions.

An ECU will generally adjust ignition to lower octane fuels based on its knock programming. So in a way, an ECU may make the best out of the fuel in the car within certain parameters or “know the octane rating” based off knock feedback.

Again, not saying this is the case in every vehicle, but the ECUs I have tuned generally work this way from the factory.


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## TeamAtlas (Oct 17, 2017)

A big portion of why we can run higher CRs on modern motors is actually the thermal engineering. Heads and blocks that are well-designed using modern analysis and testing tools will not tend to knock in the way that older motors do. 

Many OEM ECUS will step in and adjust timing if it thinks it has bad fuel based on knocking where it doesn't think it should knock (not hot or fast enough) but this is still a different thing than opening up more power if higher-than-spec octane is used.


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## KarstGeo (Jan 19, 2018)

Yes, always seems to be confusion on octane. There always seems to be an assumption that motors are running by default with the ignition retarded for knock on regular so that when premium is used you get to the optimal timing for max power. If you car was designed/tune for regular it will work optimally on regular and adding premium does about zero except drain your wallet.


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## Ryan E. (Oct 1, 2002)

TeamAtlas said:


> That's my point. Guy said it "adapts" to different fuels and that could only be true if it knew what fuel it was using.
> 
> People seem to think their motors can "tell" if they put in high octane and they simply can't.
> 
> Futhermore, increasing octane in an NA motor only benefits you in moving the knock limit, so if you weren't operating in a knock-limited regime, you will not see a noticeable difference. With a turbo, you have more control of in-cylinder temps, so more can be gained from the octane change.


You're contradicting yourself, and you took my point out of adapting out of context interpreting too literal. I never said the engine knows exactly what octane you put in it, but the ECU can tell if there's less knock and adapt to that fuel pulling less timing. I would say that's "adapting".

Some E85 ECU's are an exception that use a sensor to determine fuel type (E85/Standard 91).

If the tune, United Motorsport in the context I mentioned (not OEM tune) seems to have more timing programmed into it, it can tell less knock is occurring and not pull as much timing out. This is standard NA stuff and was huge up until 10-15 years ago, now that turbos are the norm most want to dismiss NA tuning saying the gains aren't worth it. I would disagree, but that's my opinion.


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## 0macman0 (Nov 6, 2017)

Ryan E. said:


> You're contradicting yourself, and you took my point out of adapting out of context interpreting too literal. I never said the engine knows exactly what octane you put in it, but the ECU can tell if there's less knock and adapt to that fuel pulling less timing. I would say that's "adapting".
> 
> Some E85 ECU's are an exception that use a sensor to determine fuel type (E85/Standard 91).
> 
> If the tune, United Motorsport in the context I mentioned (not OEM tune) seems to have more timing programmed into it, it can tell less knock is occurring and not pull as much timing out. This is standard NA stuff and was huge up until 10-15 years ago, now that turbos are the norm most want to dismiss NA tuning saying the gains aren't worth it. I would disagree, but that's my opinion.


NA tuning is alive and well, and it is worth it. Between some flattening of torque curves, throttle programming and transmission programming, there are gains to be had, and it is noticeable. I have been tuning my own ECU tables for years and it’s pretty amazing what you can do.


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## [email protected] (Oct 24, 2002)

Alpen Offroad has lots of new stuff coming out for the 3.6 Motor.

Currently I am running their Sprintbooster for the Atlas and love the response I now get from the throttle:

https://alpenoffroad.com/shop?olsPage=products/vw-atlas-sprintbooster-throttle-pedal

They are also developing an intake with Forge Motorsport:

https://alpenoffroad.com/shop?olsPage=products/air-intake-for-vw-atlas-with-36l-engine


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## LFG (May 30, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> Alpen Offroad has lots of new stuff coming out for the 3.6 Motor.
> 
> Currently I am running their Sprintbooster for the Atlas and love the response I now get from the throttle:
> 
> ...


Thank you for this info. I'm considering getting an Atlas, and the performance is really the only questionable feature about the vehicle. From what I've read and seen online, the Sprintbooster makes a pretty noticeable difference. Can you confirm? Also, with regard to installation, was it as straightforward as the website indicates? Thanks so much!


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