# megasquirt help. spark+fuel



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

Im using MSnS v2.2 with the relay board. im running stock distrubotor/hall sendor and a bosch ignition control module. i cannot figure out why i am not getting spark or signal to the injectors. i have an injector tester, and they turn on when the key is turned to accessory, but when i turn it over they arn't getting any signal. also, i believe one of the problems is my ignition trigger. where does this get wired to? 
fyi, RS-autosport built the ms2.2 board.
#7 on the relay board is the ignition trigger, and #9 on the board is the tach signal from hall sesnor.
#1 ----------------------#20


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

also how does the ignition module get wired up?


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

edit, i was really frustrated










_Modified by yettaIII at 8:06 PM 5-6-2008_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Impatient much?
What board mods have been done? For a VW hall there are a few ways to get it done, the wiring will change with each way. 
The approved msextra way puts the hall input on Tach (pin24) and the spark output on X11 (S1 on the relay/Pin25). Other, older mods, can move both of those around quite a lot. The spark output pin needs to go to Pin6 of the ICM in any case, it will also need the power, ground and coil connections like it has stock. There is good info here: http://www.msextra.com/manuals...bosch
For starters: do you see RPM in Megatune? If not do you have power to the hall? If you have hall power does it match the pullup voltage used in the input modifications? If you have rpm but no spark, do you have the ignition module wired correctly, are you wiring pin6 to the correct MS pin to match the board mods?
If you can answer the above it will tell you where the problem is pretty easily.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

pmed


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

im about to do away with the relay board since there is less info on it


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Sure, just don't use it!


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

pm'd http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

i never use the relay board, pain in the butt imo..
paul will get you sorted, listen to his advice fo sho http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

















































with that setup, can i use this diagram for my ignition control module? what wires go to the hall?
http://members.cox.net/vwguyfr...m.jpg


_Modified by yettaIII at 8:24 PM 5-7-2008_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Check the bottom as well, there should be a pullup from the LED to 5v as well as a pullup on the top side of the opto as well. I honestly don't know how this worked with a VW hall if it's missing those features in the circuit.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

ok ill take more pictures tomorrow









using this diagram for ignition control module, hall sender goes (from left to right( -, sig, +) right?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

So you can see clearly you don't even have the Midnight mods either, right?
For the hall input setup to work you need 5v on Pin24 jumpered somewhere.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

what would i have to do to mod it correctly? what pin gets jumpered where?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Correctly is very subjective. I suggest the mods on the msextra site, http://www.msextra.com in the hardware manual, just follow the mods for 5v low to high hall (XG1-XG2 clipped) and the single spark output for the Bosch module.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

hey im about to take pictures of the bottom side of the board http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Resistor on the LED is the 5v pullup I mentioned, good.
The bottom side one it's hard to tell where it goes but it almost looks like it ties Pin24 to 5v. Can you power up the board and see if you get voltage there and verify those spots are marked topside (if anything).


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

are you talking about the black jumper wire ?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Yes


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

if so, it goes from x14 to the pin right under r29, i believe its the 5th pin from the left.
XXXXXXXXXX~....
_XXXX*XXXX~.... the * is where it goes from x14, and x14 is also jumped to jp1-8, pin closest to "jp1"


_Modified by yettaIII at 1:27 PM 5-8-2008_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Looks like it's 5v to the tach pin (24). If you have power those mods, though odd, should work.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

ok ok, where do i geet the +5v that goes to the tach pin? im still going to try using the relay board, i do not want to hurt the ms board itself, because no one locally could fix it and dubs on the beach is coming up soon


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Tach and Vref will have 5v
S1 - Spark out
S3 - hall in


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

I'm watching this... I have the same issue... I can see RPMs on when trying to start... but there is no spark. Could it be the dizzy? Or is the hall just not getting any power? I wired mine ICM the Midnight way and the MS jumpers the Midnight way as well. Sorry if I'm thread jacking. Just tryin to help anyone who is searching for no spark with MS


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

you can test really easily if its the hall by grounding out the pins on the plug for the hall, if you get a pump cycle an a spark, the hall is bad or you have it wired in-correctly


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWralley)*

Usually if you see rpm but no spark there's something wired wrong, mis configured or your board mods don't match your wiring. 
So, what's the internal spark output modification and what pin are you wiring in for spark?


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

thats true, i missed that part, he clarified via IM


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWralley)*

The mods made to the board are the Midnight mods... 
Jumper X11 & XG1
Jumper Pin 24 & JP1
Jumper D8... a bridge over the diode... like in this pic:








I am thinking that I need to make sure that the Hall 3 wire is going to the 24 pin... When I wired the Hall 2 to the 25 pin... I went from no RPMs to having RPMs. Also... right now the 30 pin is going to the 6 of the IGM.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

XG1 - X11 means the Hall Input is on Pin25
LED to X13 means spark output is on Pin29 (if D17 is set for SparkA)
Hall power can be from either 24 or 26.
Pin 30 is FIDLE and if you want that to spark, you need to set FIDLE to SparkA in the 'codebase and outputs' section.



_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 3:53 PM 6-16-2008_


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

ok ill try that tonight. i just got really burnt out with it. working 8 hours at work than 8 hours on my car..hated it! im all rested up and ready to dig back in. ill keep ya updated. thanks again! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yettaIII* »_ok ill try that tonight. i just got really burnt out with it. working 8 hours at work than 8 hours on my car..hated it! im all rested up and ready to dig back in. ill keep ya updated. thanks again! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I hear that! Good luck brother!


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_XG1 - X11 means the Hall Input is on Pin25
LED to X13 means spark output is on Pin29 (if D17 is set for SparkA)
Hall power can be from either 24 or 26.
Pin 30 is FIDLE and if you want that to spark, you need to set FIDLE to SparkA in the 'codebase and outputs' section.
_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 3:53 PM 6-16-2008_

I just checked my box... so I have:
Jumper X11 to XG1
Jumper Pin 24 to JP1
Bridge on D8
I changed my wiring to the MS box so:
Hall 2 is going to Pin 25
Hall 1 is ground
Hall 3 is going to Pin 24
My IGM to MS....
Pin 6 is going to Pin 31 
Pin 2 to ground
Pin 1 to -1 on ignition coil
Pin 4 meets with the +15 on the ignition coil
Still no spark.
I just looked at my box and it looks like someone has removed the LED to X13 jumper. So does that mean that I should put a jumper there and run my IGM Pin 6 to MS Pin 29? I really don't know why I was running IGM Pin 6 to Pin 31... I guess it was because I saw it in the Patatron diagram. I don't think that I am getting a "spark out" on pin 31.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

Make sure FIDLE is set to Spark A in codebase and outputs and report back.


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

Is this... 








The resistor talked about here...


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

Just found this little gem








v2.2
X11 = pin 25 of 37pin db
X12 = pin 27 of 37pin db
X13 = pin 29 of 37pin db
X14 = pin 31 of 37pin db


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

Yes that resistor is the 5v pullup for the LED spark circuit. That little gem has been on the original MS V2.2 schematic from the beginning


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Yes that resistor is the 5v pullup for the LED spark circuit. That little gem has been on the original MS V2.2 schematic from the beginning









Does it matter where that pullup goes? Where should I put it from D17? There is so much info... I must have missed that gem


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

I have 270 olm and 1k olm pullups... which one should I use?


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

so your having trouble getting spark with the stock IGM? are your injectors pulsing?


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

If you're asking me... I have RPMs and no spark. Fuel is workin great







Do you know if it's ok to use that 1k resistor between LED17 and the 5v?


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

im really not sure, gotta ask paul or someone else who knows about the board. im still a noob at this, after several months









are you using the relay board?* edit*


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

and yes that resistor is the is the one shown, for that question u asked on the end of hte 1st page


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

i just tested my board, it doesn't pick up the db9 cable


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

Just tried mine and still no spark. But still have RPM.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

retested it, im getting loopback on hyperterm jumping 12+13 on the 40 pin processor, but still not getting connection to the unit itself, megatune will not pick it up


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

I use 1k pullups from the LED to 5v.
So the hyperterm loopback test passes?
No other program running that uses the serial port (like hyperterm) when you try and connect to Megatune?
Does it give an error or just sit there not connected? What are your settings for your COM port as well as MT in Communications?


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

I connected my LED17 to X14 since I had already run a wire from Pin 31 to ICM pin 6. The instructions said to use LED17 to X13 thus using Pin 29 to pin 6 ICM. Would it matter which one I used as long as it was open? My Pin 29 is already running to the Idle Boost relay.


_Modified by VWeezly at 10:32 AM 6-18-2008_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

Doesn't matter at all as long as the pin is wired to what you want.


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Doesn't matter at all as long as the pin is wired to what you want.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

I HAVE SPARK! But my spark plugs are all effed after trying to start it so much... My issue was some non soldered connections and a faulty dizzy cap. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

So....
With the Bosch ICM I currently am sure that I have spark... when I ground one of the plug wires there is a consistent tick, tick, tick, of of the spark arcing to the ground. I have fuel. The spark plugs have fuel on them when I pull one after trying to start it. I changed the dwell settings to 50% Fixed Duty Cycle and made sure the spark was not inverted. I tried it inverted as well and no go. I know that my "Power Cycle" is set up correctly. I pulled the fuel pump fuse and turned it over while holding the throttle at full for a few seconds. To make sure the engine wasn't flooded. No go. I still don't know how to save a datalog... any advice?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

Host your msq somewhere or post up your cranking/afterrun settings.


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (need_a_VR6)*

I will do that tonight (the box is at home







) Thanks!


----------



## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (VWeezly)*

PMed you vr6


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I'm helping someone troubleshoot a MS 2.2 install, and I'm not at all familiar with 2.2 My v3 install is rock solid though








The board wasn't setup correctly, looks like they tried to follow the MidnightGLI setup, but ran JP1-8 to XG12 instead of pin24.
I'm following this post:
http://www.ottawa-vdubbing.com...15948
But there's nothing in there about a pull-up resistor. Is it still needed if the 7-pin bosch module is being used?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

I always use a 1k pullup to 5v for the Bosch modules, or the externally ignited coils (VR6/ABA). 
If JP1-8 is jumpered to X12 then you just have 5v on that pin now, no big deal. If X11 is jumpered to XG1 then the hall input needs to go to pin25 instead of pin24. You can grab ahll power from Pin27 (X12) or Pin26 (tps vref).


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

ok, I see, so JP1-8 is just a way to bring 5V out to pin 24 or whatever.
is it possible to use pin 24 as the hall input? why bother switching it to pin 25 if you could just use 24? or does it require more work?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

I use Pin24 as the hall input still, the mods are different then the Pin25 method. I see no reason to use Pin25 anymore, it's just that was how the first person that figured it out did it. The way using Pin 24 is on msextra.com in the hardware manual for V2.2 hall low-high.


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I'm assuming it's the 5V modification, or do you prefer to use 12V on the hall?
I will most likely get rid of the Bosch ICM, and just fit an internal coil driver, and freeing up pin 25 would be nice. The MSExtra manual recommends doubling up the coil wires if you're not going to use another connector, but why don't they just 2 of the grounds off the top row instead of wasting 2 of the spare terminals?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

I use 5v, not sure why but I always have. 
You can use the internal type drivers (VB921 or Bosch BIP) but it sinks a lot of current and the board traces on the spares can't handle it. If you solder directly from your ignition driver output to the spare pin itself it *should* work fine. 
The normal ground locations can't be used because the ignition drivers switches the coil to ground through the ECU itself. You can ground the VB/BIP to any of those pins, but the external connection will still have to be either double spare terminals or a direct soldered connection to a pin.


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Cool, thanks.
I saw that one person ran the coil output to X13, than ran another wire from X13 to pin 29. Then used JP1-7 for the ground. I don't have the board in front of me, but the entire bottom is pretty much the ground trace, so if JP1-7 has a good connection there, it should be OK. An extra ground wire to the DB37 couldn't hurt though.


----------



## yettaIII (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: megasquirt help. spark+fuel (yettaIII)*

bump, still no spark


----------

