# OBD1 ABA 16V Dizzy in block



## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

Hi All!

I recently picked up a clean 95 surf green golf sport that I am installing a 9a head on and turbocharging. 

What I am curious about is why use a dizzy gizzy and then use the distributor in the head when I could block off the hole in the head and use the stock ABA distributor in the block? Why are more people not doing this. Ive only seen some from old magazines in mk2s and what not.

Thanks for the help!


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## Tomjr (Aug 8, 2012)

It sounds too easy.. There's more pieces to that puzzle I'm willing to bet. I'll try and do some research when I get off (if I remember.)

Sent from my LML414DL using Tapatalk


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

Im just trying to think critically, 

Like plan on turbocharging so ABA pistons are ok, install the head with 16v pulleys for the wider belt, block off distributor hole in head, and use stock spark plug wires if they are long enough, customer or alternative if they arent.


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

thanks boss


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

This has been done many times, both with the 16v head an 20v head on ABA.

Just know that you will have to use a 20v Cam gear, and modify the nose (Grind down) of the ABA IM Shaft for that Cam Gear to work. Also, you will have a tough time finding the right length belt for this since you are using the 52T Cam gear on the IM Shaft and need a longer belt. I used to have these custom made, but interest ceased about 8 years ago for this setup.

Anyone these days, use the 9a IM shaft, 9a IM shaft gear (43T which turns the oil pump faster), 9a Oil Pump, Drive gear and plug and ABF timing belt.

The reason you need the 52T on IM shaft to use the ABA Block Dist is so it turns 1:2 with Crank for Dist and the ABA uses a narrow 20mm square tooth timing belt which is no good for 16v or 20v head.. As mentioned, 16v used 43T with turns the pump faster that 1:2.

Also need the 16v Crank Cog for the wider timing belt and modified Serp Crank Pulley. Look at my project thread or the 20v G60 thread in the G60 forum as the is info and pictures of all of the above explanations.

Hope that helps,
Shawn


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

One Correction to the above mentioning Custom timing belt with ABA IM shaft and 52T 20v cam gear. While it is longer than the ABF belt, there may already be a solution now that I am thinking of it, but forget as it has been eons. perhaps the early 20vAEB or a honda belt. 20v head requires the custom belt/belts that I used to have custom made.

I would still go 9a IM shaft complete setup and Dist in head. $.02


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Also, there is a sticky at the top of this forum with every answer I'm sure, albeit 90+ pages


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

See above, no one does it because anyone that has done it is now too old to remember. 

I remember the 20v cam gear but thats about it and I did it at least twice.


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

sdezego said:


> One Correction to the above mentioning Custom timing belt with ABA IM shaft and 52T 20v cam gear. While it is longer than the ABF belt, there may already be a solution now that I am thinking of it, but forget as it has been eons. perhaps the early 20vAEB or a honda belt. 20v head requires the custom belt/belts that I used to have custom made.
> 
> I would still go 9a IM shaft complete setup and Dist in head. $.02


Thanks so much for the info! This is great! Just curious what you think the benefits of the im and dizzy in head are over this method? Say I did the dizzy in block with modified gears and belt, and did a diy specifying exactly what you needed, would that sway your opinion? So that there was no fogginess in how to do it? Also cam and oil pulleys need to be same dia for timing to be correct yes? 

Thanks!!!


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

sdezego said:


> Also, there is a sticky at the top of this forum with every answer I'm sure, albeit 90+ pages


I just looked through your whole ABA 20v conversion with G60 and found some pics that could be useful.

Could you mark up this picture stating parts needed (for either 16v or 20v)



















Thanks! Youre a legend!


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

TTT


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

whats all this talk about 20v gears if he's using a 9a head? why not just change the crank sprocket and im sprocket for 9a parts and use the dizzy in the head?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

He was asking about using the ABA Block complete and Dist in Block vs using 16v dist in head. 9a IM gear would not turn the Shaft /dist 1:2. In this specific case, you need a 52T IM shaft gear with 25mm width and Belt tooth profile for 16v. VW never made such a gear thus old school option was to use a 20v cam gear, and mod the nose of the IM shaft to accept said gear. Then you could use complete ABA bottom end as is and Distributor in Block. Would still need to change reluctor on the ABA Dist to 4 window...

Again, I don't advocate this direction by any means this day and age.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

duhafnusa4 said:


> I just looked through your whole ABA 20v conversion with G60 and found some pics that could be useful.
> 
> Could you mark up this picture stating parts needed (for either 16v or 20v)
> 
> ...


Thanks. Those pics are not 100% relevant to you and might confuse the issue. 20v Head with 20v tensioner/Bearing would be irrelevant to you. You use 9a head and 9a Tensioner Bearing.

The Silver Intermediate Shaft (IM) gear is from a 9a setup (notice 43 tooth smaller diam) and can not drive a block Distributor at correct speed. This 9a IM gear setup includes the gear, shaft in the Block, 9a Oil Pump, Drive gear and Block Cap (to replace where Dist would normally go). Search 9a Intermediate Shaft setup and you will see those parts.

On the Crank, this is the same timing belt Cog/gear and bolt you would use and is from any 16v. You will notice the wider width (25mm vs 19mm) and tooth shape different from the 8v ABA.

Because of this width different, you now need a custom Serpentine Pulley (i.e. harmonic Balancer) shortened otherwise the serpentine belt will not line up with your accessories because that timing belt crank cog just pushed it out 6mm further due to the extra timing belt width.


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

sdezego said:


> He was asking about using the ABA Block complete and Dist in Block vs using 16v dist in head. 9a IM gear would not turn the Shaft /dist 1:2. In this specific case, you need a 52T IM shaft gear with 25mm width and Belt tooth profile for 16v. VW never made such a gear thus old school option was to use a 20v cam gear, and mod the nose of the IM shaft to accept said gear. Then you could use complete ABA bottom end as is and Distributor in Block. Would still need to change reluctor on the ABA Dist to 4 window...
> 
> Again, I don't advocate this direction by any means this day and age.


ah right. I see what you mean now. so basically you can't get a 16v im sprocket the right ratio to turn the in block dizzy in time:thumbup:


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

sdezego said:


> Thanks. Those pics are not 100% relevant to you and might confuse the issue. 20v Head with 20v tensioner/Bearing would be irrelevant to you. You use 9a head and 9a Tensioner Bearing.
> 
> The Silver Intermediate Shaft (IM) gear is from a 9a setup (notice 46 tooth smaller diam) and can not drive a block Distributor at correct speed. This 9a IM gear setup includes the gear, shaft in the Block, 9a Oil Pump, Drive gear and Block Cap (to replace where Dist would normally go). Search 9a Intermediate Shaft setup and you will see those parts.
> 
> ...


why you want rid of the head dizzy? to make room for turbo pipes?


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

sdezego said:


> Thanks. Those pics are not 100% relevant to you and might confuse the issue. 20v Head with 20v tensioner/Bearing would be irrelevant to you. You use 9a head and 9a Tensioner Bearing.
> 
> The Silver Intermediate Shaft (IM) gear is from a 9a setup (notice 46 tooth smaller diam) and can not drive a block Distributor at correct speed. This 9a IM gear setup includes the gear, shaft in the Block, 9a Oil Pump, Drive gear and Block Cap (to replace where Dist would normally go). Search 9a Intermediate Shaft setup and you will see those parts.
> 
> ...



I understand they arent but having a visual aid is beneficial. 

Parts needed (please edit as needed)

16V cylinder head
9a tensioner bearing
16v crank cog
16v crank pulley (custom/modified)
52T IM shaft gear
20v cam gear
custom length timing belt/serp belt (or equal length and spec from another engine)

Anything else?

Just out of curiousity sake, why not use an 8v width timing belt on the 16v head (find a longer belt if needed) so no custom modding needed.

Thanks


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

could you not use another 16v cam sprocket on the im shaft???


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

and an abf timing belt?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

duhafnusa4 said:


> I understand they arent but having a visual aid is beneficial.
> 
> Parts needed (please edit as needed)
> 
> ...


8v is not near strong enough to turn extra Cam and 8 more valves.


Corrected List:

16V cylinder head
16v tensioner bearing
16v crank cog
**16v Crank/Cog Bolt*
**ABA Serp* crank pulley (custom/modified) (Bahn Brenner sells/used to sell these)
**20v cam gear (52T to use on Modified ABA IM Shaft nose)- NOTE: see my build thread at beginning. Shows modified IM Shaft and 20v Cam gear on it as I was going this route early on, then changed to 9a setup and Non-Distributor*
custom length timing belt (or equal length and spec from another engine) *(Most likely a Honda belt which uses a Round Tooth vs Curvilinear II Tooth like VW used. People used them for many years, but not perfect IMO). 
ABA Serpentine belt
**4 window Reluctor wheel to swap into Distributor (OR use G60 Distributor with Techtonics Tuning block Adapter Ring in ABA Block) note: ABA has only 1 window reluctor in Dist for Phase Sync, 60-2 was for Engine angle.*


Also, I have never done this with 16v head, so I have no idea if the Block Dist cap would clear intake runner?? Might need Fiat cap with 90* plug wires?? Might want to check that out for sure before committing.

You can start to see why it makes less sense to go this route. Plus you are turning oil pump slower than with 9a Im Shaft setup.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

garryt said:


> and an abf timing belt?


Too Short. Would only work with ABF Clone (i.e. using the 9a IM Shaft/ 43T Gear Setup for 16v Head Distributor). 52T gear on IM Shaft needs longer belt.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Edit: Removed Links I referenced because that would confuse matter... ABA Tall Deck Block vs G60 Short Deck Block


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

sdezego said:


> Too Short. Would only work with ABF Clone (i.e. using the 9a IM Shaft/ 43T Gear Setup for 16v Head Distributor). 52T gear on IM Shaft needs longer belt.


would the abf belt work with a smaller diameter tensioner? also, I think the 1.8 dizzy is shorter than aba one and already has 4 window wheel. might be a better option with that and a spacer ring. would it not work fine as it's already got a 36mm oil pump?


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

does the 9a engine have a 36mm oil pump? pretty sure the 3a I had a few years back had the 36mm


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

ABA and 9a and even PL and PG all have the larger oil pump gears from what I recall.

Tensioner Diam is not significant, so no, ABF belt would still not work with 52T IM shaft gear.

The difference with running the 43T IM shaft gear (16v and 20v AEB) VS using the 52T gear on the IM shaft is ~ 2 teeth. So, to run a 16v head on an ABA running distributor in block and using the 52t 20v cam gear on modified ABA IM shaft, you would need the length of the ABF timing belt +2 teeth and use the regular 16v tensioner. I forget what the length of the ABF belt is off hand. Curvilinear II tooth profile is proper.

Don't know about regular 8v dist (assuming you are talking about say the RD vs the JH which had advance canister), but I know that the Dist hole in the block is larger on the ABA thus why you need an adapter to use the G60 Dist in ABA. I have heard of people changing the reluctor wheel on the ABA dist to the 4 window, but I tried it once and it seemed like it was welded... Gears are not all the same either in fact (thus why the hole in the block is larger on ABA), I failed to mention that above, so if you use the G60 Dist, you need to use the ABA dist drive gear on it with adapter bushing like TT sells.

Again, this has been over 8+ years since I even thought about going this route.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

@duhafnusa4

After all of the above complications, can I ask what the reasoning is to still use the ABA dist in the block vs 16v Dist on the head?

I just realized that I never asked what management you plan to run. For some reason, I just assumed Digi, but perhaps you plan to run your ABA OBD1 management? If this is the case, then we have a whole other discussion regarding Distributers, etc


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

sdezego said:


> ABA and 9a and even PL and PG all have the larger oil pump gears from what I recall.
> 
> Tensioner Diam is not significant, so no, ABF belt would still not work with 52T IM shaft gear.
> 
> ...


I was meaning the 4 window digi II dizzy. yeah you would need to fit spacer and the aba lower gear and it's good to go.


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

sdezego said:


> @duhafnusa4
> 
> After all of the above complications, can I ask what the reasoning is to still use the ABA dist in the block vs 16v Dist on the head?
> 
> I just realized that I never asked what management you plan to run. For some reason, I just assumed Digi, but perhaps you plan to run your ABA OBD1 management? If this is the case, then we have a whole other discussion regarding Distributers, etc


he must be wanting the space for the turbo pipes.


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

might be able to make up a plate between the engine and tensioner to move it back enough for abf belt.


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

sdezego said:


> @duhafnusa4
> 
> After all of the above complications, can I ask what the reasoning is to still use the ABA dist in the block vs 16v Dist on the head?
> 
> I just realized that I never asked what management you plan to run. For some reason, I just assumed Digi, but perhaps you plan to run your ABA OBD1 management? If this is the case, then we have a whole other discussion regarding Distributers, etc


Hey yeah not Digi but aba obd1. This would be in an obd1 mk3. Sorry I didn't clarify that earlier.


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

does the obd1 not have the 4 window dizzy though? like the early uk mk3 gti with the 2E engine?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

duhafnusa4 said:


> Hey yeah not Digi but aba obd1. This would be in an obd1 mk3. Sorry I didn't clarify that earlier.


Ahh, I see. So then you can ignore the talk about reluctors, other distributors and adapters, since you need to run your ABA 1 window Distributor for ECU Sync.

Think you are gonna need that Fiat dist cap with the 90* plug wire outlets (see page 90 in the 16v Sticky at top of the forum) in order to clear the 16v intake. I have never done this, so I don't know.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

garryt said:


> does the obd1 not have the 4 window dizzy though? like the early uk mk3 gti with the 2E engine?


No, all ABA (OBD1 and OBD2) used the 60-2 crank trigger and then the Dist with a 1 Window reluctor for Cam Sync.


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

sdezego said:


> Ahh, I see. So then you can ignore the talk about reluctors, other distributors and adapters, since you need to run your ABA 1 window Distributor for ECU Sync.
> 
> Think you are gonna need that Fiat dist cap with the 90* plug wire outlets (see page 90 in the 16v Sticky at top of the forum) in order to clear the 16v intake. I have never done this, so I don't know.


Thanks for the heads up (pun intended :laugh: ) Ill take photos as I install to see if there are any clearance issues. 

Again thanks for the help with this, it will be nice to have it in a clear and concise DIY for those that search for "16V ABA stock distributor" so that no more new threads are created


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

sdezego said:


> No, all ABA (OBD1 and OBD2) used the 60-2 crank trigger and then the Dist with a 1 Window reluctor for Cam Sync.


there's no way around that one then:thumbdown:


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## DbilasTDI (Nov 5, 2017)

MegaSquirt + EDIS or Megajoltlt JR, crank trigger, map sensor with a 3D ignition map would be much better spark with full control.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If standalone is an option you can easily run the 60-2 with a waste spark coil and no distributor at all.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> If standalone is an option you can easily run the 60-2 with a waste spark coil and no distributor at all.


Since it was not asked, I wasn't going to be the one to mention standalone, but since it's out there now... I totally agree  

This is the route that I would go, especially if the plan is to add Turbo!


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

DbilasTDI said:


> MegaSquirt + EDIS or Megajoltlt JR, crank trigger, map sensor with a 3D ignition map would be much better spark with full control.





need_a_VR6 said:


> If standalone is an option you can easily run the 60-2 with a waste spark coil and no distributor at all.



While I appreciate the info on what you would need, I am wanting to stay obd1 mk3 engine management as I can burn chips as needed.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yeah I know how that one ends up. Just get standalone now before you lose your hair like I did.


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## duhafnusa4 (Dec 20, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Yeah I know how that one ends up. Just get standalone now before you lose your hair like I did.


yeah? what happened?


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## DbilasTDI (Nov 5, 2017)

No need to burn chips with megasquirt. You can tune the map while you drive it. And much better spark with an EDIS ignition.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

duhafnusa4 said:


> yeah? what happened?


I learned that after a point obd1 will fight you and it will win. Then you end up on standalone.


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

I'm having trouble finding the drive gear for a 9a oil pump. Does anyone know with aeb stuff work?


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

why not use a ground down kr aux shaft and gear?


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## garryt (Dec 22, 2016)

duhafnusa4 said:


> While I appreciate the info on what you would need, I am wanting to stay obd1 mk3 engine management as I can burn chips as needed.


you could swap the single window trigger wheel on to the 1.8 dizzy along with the lower drive gear and a block spacer ring:thumbup:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

raguturbo said:


> I'm having trouble finding the drive gear for a 9a oil pump. Does anyone know with aeb stuff work?


Nope not really. Not without the AEB IM shaft and still requires machining of IM shaft gear on the IM shaft itself to clear the crank. This is based on my foggy recollection from eons ago..


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## Rosestreet (Nov 24, 2016)

top


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

If your not using the dizzy in the block for ignition just to drive the pump. Would it be a bad idea to use the 16v intermediate shaft gear on the aba shaft? Would it over drive the pump? I've heard people say they don't like going over 8500 as is.


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