# Is the S3 Worth Giving Up a Manual Trans For?



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

First of all, let me state that I absolutely love the new S3. If it came with a manual transmission I'd already own one. But it doesn't. So here I am.

I've been a huge fan of manuals since I was 19 (always having three-pedal cars since then) in everything from station wagons to diesels to pickups to sports cars. I've gotten to a point where I'm thinking of selling off my minty BRZ that I've had for 4.5 years and getting something with 4 real seats (a Miata and regular cab Ranger round out my fleet). I want something on the smaller side, a sedan, sporty, and maybe a bit more upscale. 

As you can see, a new S3 would tick off all the boxes. Except that it doesn't come with a manual. And I love manuals. I heel-toe and rev match my downshifts; I love the feeling of being connected with the car. I don't care much about 0-60 times or lap times of automatic trans cars. 

My ex had a 2008 GTI with the DSG. I didn't care for it. At interections I'd push the gas down a bit, and the car wouldn't move, I push it down further and I'd get wheel spin. I'd use the paddle shifters to knock it down a couple of gears before an on/off ramp, but that's about it. I wanted to keep it in manual mode, but always got bored of it and put it in auto-mode (I felt like I was fooling myself). Are DSGs different these days? Are they any better?

Other cars that are on my list would be the 3-Series (maybe a 340, but probably a 330), the Golf R, Chevy SS. There's not many RWD/AWD stick shift cars that are a little upscale available these days. The problem with the 3 Series are expense, and BMWs terrible way of doing options. The Golf R is a hatchback (not that I mind a lot, but I'd rather a sedan this time), I'm not a big fan of the front end, and the badge on the hood (I don't care at all, but _she_ does). The only real problem with the SS I have is that it won't fit in my garage. 

Of course, I could say 'screw the whole thing', keep the BRZ, and sell the Ranger to get a new 4x4, 4-door 6MT Tacoma. 

So, will I hate myself over time if I give up the manual trans to get an S3?


Pics for Clicks: My 4.5 year old BRZ with < 26,000 miles:


----------



## sgt_cr (Mar 18, 2015)

I know its not the same, but you can always pick your S3 with shifpaddles and just keep using your transmission on Manual, is not the stick but I rather have the shiftpaddles than the stick and if you commute to work and needs to go into traffic jams having an automatic is a dream come true. 

I had always a stick/manual but i wouldnt go back now after trying the dual clutch from Audi.


----------



## Diztek (May 27, 2004)

if you had to ditch the manual, dsg is the only way to go, unless you can afford a ferrari or porsche. if you like how the s3 drives, you may want to look into the golf r. you can get a manual with the "r".


----------



## India Whiskey Charlie (Feb 15, 2006)

Smigelski said:


> Is the S3 Worth Giving Up a Manual Trans For?


NO! 



> So, will I hate myself over time if I give up the manual trans to get an S3?


YES!

If you are an avid manual driver who enjoys rowing with 3 pedals, no automatic will give you the same pleasure. Don't be fooled by the idea of paddle shifting because it's not the same and, unless you are driving on the track, you will bore yourself to death doing that on the road. I've had them all, Audi DSG, Porsche PDK and Ferrari F1 and none of them is as exciting or satisfying as a manual. Period!


----------



## 27turbocars (Jun 26, 2016)

I know exactly what you mean about your GF's GTI and giving a tiny bit of as and not going anywhere or giving too much and spinning. The current DSG on D mode will do that, it will feel sluggish if you are only hitting the gas a little bit but it wouldn't sin tires if you get the S3 due to the AWD. 

I have had 6 DSG cars(16S3, 15 A3, 07 GTI, 07 GLI, 13' Golf TDI and a Passat TDI) they all manifest the same thing that you described except on the AWD models it wouldn't spin.

The DSG can be boring. There is a trade off, for instance the manual cars can be "entertaining" but they can also be frustrating (misshifting, wheel hop, bogging down, being stuck in traffic at low speed, etc). You have to ask yourself what type of driving you like the most. I particularily LOVE to race from a dig(any car, any traffic light, any weather, any time) so to me DSG is a win win. I drive a lot with a coffee in one hand and once again the DSG is a win win. 

My wife also likes Auto/DSGs so that is another reason. Think about what you like and make your own conclusions. To me is DSG or nothing although once in a while I have the temptation to drive a manual car.


----------



## Kamil Pawlak (Apr 26, 2013)

Smigelski said:


> First of all, let me state that I absolutely love the new S3. If it came with a manual transmission I'd already own one. But it doesn't. So here I am.
> 
> I've been a huge fan of manuals since I was 19 (always having three-pedal cars since then) in everything from station wagons to diesels to pickups to sports cars. I've gotten to a point where I'm thinking of selling off my minty BRZ that I've had for 4.5 years and getting something with 4 real seats (a Miata and regular cab Ranger round out my fleet). I want something on the smaller side, a sedan, sporty, and maybe a bit more upscale.
> 
> ...


Nice brz! Had one myself i do miss manual but the dsg is just blinding fast and just fun to hear it fart during shifts. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## johnnyR32 (Aug 31, 2004)

I've driven manual cars forever but don't miss it at all. The S3 is a great car and DSG is fun.


----------



## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

Smigelski said:


> First of all, let me state that I absolutely love the new S3. If it came with a manual transmission I'd already own one. But it doesn't. So here I am.
> 
> I've been a huge fan of manuals since I was 19 (always having three-pedal cars since then) in everything from station wagons to diesels to pickups to sports cars. I've gotten to a point where I'm thinking of selling off my minty BRZ that I've had for 4.5 years and getting something with 4 real seats (a Miata and regular cab Ranger round out my fleet). I want something on the smaller side, a sedan, sporty, and maybe a bit more upscale.
> 
> ...



I traded a 3 pedal E90 M3 for my S3 and the only thing I miss is the sound of that S65 V8. The DSG is better and faster than any manual, just less engaging for the driver. I thought I would miss dd'ing a manual, but I don't.


----------



## will13k7 (Aug 30, 2015)

I don't miss manuals one bit, I drove them for over 15 years straight. everyone's different of course.


----------



## MarcMiller (Sep 22, 2010)

I've been driving manual for the last 7 years and getting my A3 in August was the best feeling. Driving 20+ miles to and from work everyday is so much easier not having stick. Finally can relax and just drive. No complaints.


----------



## India Whiskey Charlie (Feb 15, 2006)

Here's an interesting take on the "death" of the manual:

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/02/slow-death-of-the-manual-transmission-ev-engadget/


----------



## vdubjc97 (Feb 8, 2002)

I have only had 2 autos in my lifexperience out of the 12 cars I have owned. 2013 GTI and now the S3. 

The 2013 GTI, yes you come to a stop and hit the gas there is a pause like someone riding the clutch, best way I could ever explain it. It cleared up a big amount when I had the TCU flashed with Unitronic Stage 2 DSG tune. The shifts were stupid fast.

The S3 feels alot better than the GTI ever did in Stock form. The only thing I would say kind is a pain is the hill assist hold. It comes on way to early and holds way to long. It back be adjusted via a Vagcom or Obdeleven. I haven't messed with yet.

You have to drive it to experience anything in person.

Yes I miss driving around town banging threw 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. But I needed and auto since I now have 2 kids with a wife that refuses to drive manual.

The power of the S3 is impressive and it's a very well balanced car. I can almost compare the balance to my TT couple years back, atleast for me.

Best of luck!


----------



## -LoneStar- (Aug 5, 2015)

If you are truly a manual fan, which it sounds like you are, then no a DSG won't satisfy your needs or expectations. With that being said a DSG is a nice compromise between an old torque converter automatic and a true 3 pedal manual. I too started life driving a manual from age 15. Got my first automatic a few years back at the age of 27. Its a Jeep Grand Cherokee so I didn't have a choice. I still have my manual GTO when I need to fill the void. The wife's car is the S3 hence why I'm here lurking and giving input when I can. 

Since you would still have your fix with the Miata I don't think its a bad idea to get the S3. The DSG is truly an amazing piece of equipment. I still laugh to this day how fast and seamless it can shift. The paddles are fun but will never replace the feeling of rowing your own. The upshifts are pretty instantaneous when commanded by the paddle but the downshifts are slightly slower. I'm not saying they are slow by any stretch of the imagination but compared to the lightening quick upshift they are slightly, and I mean very slightly, slower. 

If I were in your shoes I would choose the SS. Its been compared to the E39 M5 so that must say a lot about it. Its the last of the Mohicans being a big naturally aspirated V8 tied to a manual. I believe it will be a collectable one day. The Magnetic Dampers it has are the best in the industry. I mean GM licensed it technology to Ferrari for crying out loud. 

The Golf R would be the closest thing to the S3. They don't use the same magnetic dampers as the S3 but the automatically adjusting dampers they do have are pretty good. They are just fluid and valve based compared to the magnetics on the S3. I can't do hatchbacks so I could never have one but they are pretty neat for what they are. 

I have never been a huge BMW fan. Not to say I hate them but they are kind of vanilla to me. They make a great car don't get me wrong but they have never done anything for me. 

Audi and BMW make great cars so you can't go wrong with either. The wildcard SS you threw in would be my pick though if you must stick with a manaul


----------



## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

I went from a Fully loaded Brz that was very nicely done with mods and track packages and went straight to S3 and haven't looked back. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

-LoneStar- said:


> If you are truly a manual fan, which it sounds like you are, then no a DSG won't satisfy your needs or expectations. With that being said a DSG is a nice compromise between an old torque converter automatic and a true 3 pedal manual. I too started life driving a manual from age 15. Got my first automatic a few years back at the age of 27. Its a Jeep Grand Cherokee so I didn't have a choice. I still have my manual GTO when I need to fill the void. The wife's car is the S3 hence why I'm here lurking and giving input when I can.
> 
> Since you would still have your fix with the Miata I don't think its a bad idea to get the S3. The DSG is truly an amazing piece of equipment. I still laugh to this day how fast and seamless it can shift. The paddles are fun but will never replace the feeling of rowing your own. The upshifts are pretty instantaneous when commanded by the paddle but the downshifts are slightly slower. I'm not saying they are slow by any stretch of the imagination but compared to the lightening quick upshift they are slightly, and I mean very slightly, slower.
> 
> ...



I kind of agree with every you said. I'm leaning heavily toward getting something with a stick. Every time I see an awesome car on the street/parking lot I look inside it to see what kind of transmission it has (if there was a choice). I'm dissapointed when I see an auto. Maybe that means I'm not ready to give up the stick shift yet. I shouldn't pass on the S3 without a test-drive, though. The overall package might be enough to sway me. 

But the SS seems like it's a fantastic car with everything I want. I just wish it was able to fit in my garage. 


I put the BRZ up for the Winter because I don't have cold-weather tires for it and I mainly drive my Ranger. I think around this time of the year I start to crave something a little smoother to drive on the cold commutes to work.


----------



## -LoneStar- (Aug 5, 2015)

Smigelski said:


> I kind of agree with every you said. I'm leaning heavily toward getting something with a stick. Every time I see an awesome car on the street/parking lot I look inside it to see what kind of transmission it has (if there was a choice). I'm dissapointed when I see an auto. Maybe that means I'm not ready to give up the stick shift yet. I shouldn't pass on the S3 without a test-drive, though. The overall package might be enough to sway me.
> 
> But the SS seems like it's a fantastic car with everything I want. I just wish it was able to fit in my garage.
> 
> ...



I do the EXACT same thing when I see a nice car in the parking lot. Quickly look through the window to see if it a stick. 

I would drive every car on your list before buying. I could never buy a car with taking someone's else's word on it. Even if a magazine rants and raves about a car I would have to check into it myself. The only guy's word I could take at face value is Randy Pobst. That guy is awesome. 

True the SS is a big car. I noticed that when you threw it in there as choice. If something doesn't fit in the garage I would pass on it. I almost got a Suburban before my Jeep but it would barely fit in the garage. Were talking like 2 inches to spare so I didn't want to have to deal with that. 

The S3 is truly amazing and capable car. I know your BRZ handles awesome (never drove one but that's what I hear from EVERYONE) but I feel the S3 will get close to the handling of your BRZ. If your BRZ is a 10 out of 10 I feel the S3 would be a solid 8 out of 10. It will push as its AWD is still FWD bias but its pretty hard to reach that limit on the street. I feel like it handles very neutral and just sticks and goes. I'm sure you have much more experience in this department just trying to give the best feed back I can. 

The S3 is a fun car though. As I said its my wife's car but when we ride together to go somewhere, we both race to see who can get to the driver seat first. The steering doesn't offer much feed back but it is super precise. There is some turbo lag. The first time I really noticed this was when I got an A3 as a loaner car. It has a slightly smaller turbo that spools faster and you can feel the difference. I'm not saying its like driving an enormous turbo Supra but there is some turbo lag. I might be overlapping turbo lag with throttle response too as I feel the throttle response is also lacking a little. 

Those are the only real downfalls to the S3 in my opinion. When you stand on it and watch the DSG do its thing, its quite a satisfying thing to watch and hear it shifts. I will say the mod potential for the S3 is quite good. A tune really wakes these cars up. A tune alone is good for a minimum of .5 seconds in the quarter and an increase of 5 mph in the trap speed. Pretty good aftermarket support as well. Lots of different vendors with lots of different parts. 

Drive every car and see what fits you best :thumbup: If you have any specific questions to the S3 I'll be here to try and answer them the best I can.


----------



## Ginder (Aug 3, 2006)

Yes. Vag fan for a long time, manual for 10 years before I bought the S3. Don't regret it one bit - fantastic car.


----------



## wsjchoi (Nov 25, 2016)

I sold my 16' WRX after 10 months
excuse my choice of words but the manual trans in that wrx was garbage
happy with my S3, although not as good as the PDK in my 911, it's more than great so far!


----------



## UWbadger91 (Apr 10, 2016)

I got my 2016 S3 in April and have not missed manual yet. In the past I had two tuned GLIs and it was always on my mind about when the clutch would go since they cannot handle the power. With the S3 it can handle the extra power and frankly I haven't gotten the itch to tune it yet since it's a blast in stock form. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## littleredwagen (May 31, 2004)

Been Driving Manual Trans Cars since high school (almost 20 years  ) I am making the switch to DSG next month when my S3 finally comes, it will be my first semi auto car. I test drove one and liked it, plus since I like doing HPDEs the DSG is much better then a manual. I tell myself there is more to driving then just shifting.


----------



## Diztek (May 27, 2004)

my only gripe about the dsg is the lag you get when quicly shifting down from 5th to 2nd. it takes a second for the computer to acknowledge. i wish it downshifted as fast as it upshifts.


----------



## jared_703 (Aug 17, 2016)

littleredwagen said:


> Been Driving Manual Trans Cars since high school (almost 20 years  ) I am making the switch to DSG next month when my S3 finally comes, it will be my first semi auto car. I test drove one and liked it, plus since I like doing HPDEs the DSG is much better then a manual. I tell myself there is more to driving then just shifting.


I'm in the same boat at (22+ years with a manual), but I don't find myself missing the manual just yet. I do have a fair bit of traffic in my area (northern Va) and I'm using manual mode roughly 1/2 the time.


----------



## SilverBane (Mar 4, 2008)

I was sold on the Manual Golf R until I drove the S3. The transmission is just so quick (noticably faster than the manual), and I found both paddle shifting as well as the knob to be satisfying enough. I have owned pretty much all manual cars (a4, abarth, 128i, civic si, etc) and never thought I would enjoy a automatic as much as I enjoy this s3.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

The past couple of days I took a look at (sat in, but didn't drive) a manual Golf R and test drove an S3. My thoughts:

Golf R:

I liked the interior. Pretty upscale for a Golf, but I'm not terribly in love with the Piano black trim.
The back seats seemed to have more room than the rear seats in the S3. Also, way more rear headroom in the Golf R.
Smaller trunk than the S3 (obviously).
The electronic do-dads are nice. There are still real buttons in the car unlike some other cars that go all touch screen.
Seats were very nice.
Of course, the car doesn't look very "special" for its price point.



S3:

Very nice interior as well. I like the design a bit more than the Golf R's. 
Auto stop/start was interesting, and a little jarring on starts. It's disable-able, but does not stay off through an ignition sequence. That might annoy me. 
The virtual cockpit is really damn cool. I'm not sure I'd opt for it because it's part of a $3k package.
Bigger trunk, but smaller backseat area. Less legroom than the R, and my head hits the roof. 


And now on to the driving characteristics. 


I can't shift very well with the paddles if the steering wheel is slightly turned, especially with my right hand. I'd probably forgo paddle use all together. 
The car does shift quickly, when it decides to (in auto mode). It always seems like there's a lag between when I'd want it to shift and when it does. 
In manual mode, it shifts down pretty quickly when I tell it to, but there's a delay on commanded upshifts. Granted, I didn't do WOT upshifts. I'd imagine they'd be quicker. 
Off the line starts are a bit aggravating, as they were with the 2008 DSG GTI. A moderate amount of gas doesn't really get the car moving, making more throttle application necessary.
I played with the different driving modes a little, but couldn't tell much of a difference on the test drive. 


Overall, I really do the like the S3. This is how I break it down:


+ Sedan
+ Audi badge & interior (ok, I'm a bit of a brand whore this time around)
+ Pretty good size trunk
o Interior. I like it, but I don't think it's objectively better than the Golf R's
- Smaller backseats than I'd care for
- Transmission
- Price. With a couple options I'd want, it gets a little more expensive than I'd care for. Are there deals on these cars?

Golf R
- VW badge
- Doesn't look very 'special.'
- Small trunk
o Hatchback. I don;t hate hatchbacks, but I'd perfer a sedan this time. 
+ Price. I'd rather get a non DDC/Nav model, but those aren't available for '17. Otherwise, it's pretty loaded up.
+ Bigger backseats
+ Transmission


Are my impressions way off? I didn't want to beat on the S3 since it had low mileage and I wasn't buying that particular one. Maybe it's different with harder throttle application?


----------



## duB-Side (Apr 24, 2010)

A little food for thought on your impressions. I don't know your knowledge level on DSG or how much the salesperson went in to it so forgive me if I'm going too basic, but if you already know all this hopefully it helps someone else who doesn't. 

The transmission in the Golf R and Audi S3 are the same. Although they might be programmed different. They both can be changed by tuning if you are into that. 

They key to driving DSG is knowing a few things. 
1. It's adaptive. It changes depending on your driving style. 
2. The DSG primes whatever gear it thinks you need next. If you upshift when it has a downshift primed, it's going to be slightly slower. This will get better as it adapts to your driving habits. 

I would see if you can get another test drive and try to be over deliberate on your intentions with shifting i.e. Downshift during heavy braking, or upshift with high revs. You should see faster shifts. I say over deliberate because with a manual you are probably used to shifting slightly before/during the beginning of an action. With DSG, it feels better if you start the action a little before your shifts if that makes sense.

I wanted a manual Golf R, but settled with the DSG because the wife can't drive stick. These tips helped me get a little better handle on it. 

Also, auto start/stop on the S3 can be completely disabled via coding FWIW.


----------



## mroberte (Dec 18, 2014)

I came from owning manuals my while life and then bought this car with the dsg and of it weren't for the dsg, I think I'd be annoyed. The car shifts so quick with the paddle shifters and the car is smart enough to have you in the right gear most of the time if in sportmode. 

My only gripe is that you cant keep the car in a gear at redline without it automatically changing gears. You can alleviate this with a transmission tune.

Do I miss manual transmissions, yes, but because of this transmission it's not a deal breaker.

I had the same issue with the new Infiniti Q60 coupe. If that car came with a dual clutch transmission I'd be all over it, but it has a conventional transmission which really hurts performance and driving. I'm still waiting for them to get with the dsg program to hopefully purchase in the far future.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## littleredwagen (May 31, 2004)

mroberte said:


> I came from owning manuals my while life and then bought this car with the dsg and of it weren't for the dsg, I think I'd be annoyed. The car shifts so quick with the paddle shifters and the car is smart enough to have you in the right gear most of the time if in sportmode.
> 
> My only gripe is that you cant keep the car in a gear at redline without it automatically changing gears. You can alleviate this with a transmission tune.
> 
> ...


That is exactly why I'm skipping the next S4


----------



## b-R-ad (Mar 17, 2012)

My Last 2 cars have been manuals (several years ago also, but recent history here) Golf R and TDI Wagen, both manuals. I do miss them... at times, but for daily driving, I love my S3 DSG.

My advice... if you drive a lot either commuting or daily driving, DSG all the way. Save the manual for your project or track car. I still love rowing the gears of a manual, but not enough to own one again as a daily driver.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

b-R-ad said:


> My Last 2 cars have been manuals (several years ago also, but recent history here) Golf R and TDI Wagen, both manuals. I do miss them... at times, but for daily driving, I love my S3 DSG.
> 
> My advice... if you drive a lot either commuting or daily driving, DSG all the way. Save the manual for your project or track car. I still love rowing the gears of a manual, but not enough to own one again as a daily driver.


Well, my BRZ is 4.5 years old, and it has _almost_ 26k miles on it. :laugh: It's mainly due to me never driving it in poor weather or during the cold (I never bought Winter wheels/tires for it). I have put a ton of miles on my 5 speed Ranger in the same time frame, though, though - about 50k miles in the last 4.5 years. 

Between all 3 of my cars (BRZ, Ranger, Miata), I've been averaging about 21k miles per year. All stick shift; all around the Baltimore/DC/Annapolis area - so it's not like traffic is really light. I definitely haven't minded having a stick.


----------



## matsayswhat (Jan 1, 2011)

I went from a '13 BRZ to a '16 S3, so I might be able to help you with a bit of perspective. 

Initially I was shopping for e90/92 M3s, but I really wanted a manual sedan and just couldn't seem to find one. I also looked at C63s which are rocket ships, but couldn't find one in good condition (I'm a picky SOB). Finally I looked at IS-Fs and, well, meh. 

The Golf R was never in the equation for me after having an R32 and just not being into how plain jane they look. 

Finally I looked at S3s and was hesitant until I drove one and loved it. I ended up buying one and have had it for 1.5 years and am just shy of 10k miles. As a DD it's not quite as engaged in the way the BRZ was, but I still have fun driving it and the acceleration and ride at speed if very appreciated with the type of commute I have. The BRZ was noisy and peaky and while it was very analog, for as much as the car cost it just didn't have the oompf or the refinement I think it should have had for the price (which was as much as a GR STI when those were new). The S3 is very refined and even after a year and a half I still find myself noticing small details about the interior of the car and it's design that make me feel like not only is it a nice place to be, it's also probably the best modern interior I've ever seen in person. It's definitely the best car I've owned and I feel like overall that it's a better car than the BRZ even when adjusting for price. 

Alllll of that said lately I've been pining for an M2. The DSG in the S3 is good and it's fast and while I love it I'm being lured to the M2 by the aggression, displacement, sound, power, and manual... It's like the BRZ got me to 8.5/10, the S3 to 9/10 and the M2 seems to be 9.5/10. 10/10 in my price range doesn't exist, unless I somehow can get a M2 sedan with a cinnamon interior and dark blue exterior for the same price as the current gen. 

So with that in mind, maybe you would be better off saving for a bit longer and then reaching for an M2? Or an RS3? I don't know! Anyway, hope this helps, good luck with your hunt!


----------



## Hessen7R (May 2, 2016)

Did you make your mind up yet?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Hessen7R said:


> Did you make your mind up yet?!



I haven't made a decision yet. I'm currently bouncing back and forth between my options. The S3 is still top of the list, but my time spent thinking about the cars are giving me a slightly new perspective. Is the rear seat room in the S3 enough? Luckily I'm short, but a baby seat might be an issue in the future depending on how long I keep the car. Also, I'm not finding a lot of good info on permanently disabling the auto start/stop feature. the more I think about my test drive the more annoyed I get at it. 

Besides, one thing I'll have to do is sell the BRZ before the new car. I'll want to sell it with it's basic mods if I can, other than that I'll part it out. I'm not in a super rush for a car, but I am doing research daily. 

I'm hoping the next car I get will stay mostly stock, so I need to choose wisely. I'm going to go t othe Philly new car show next week, so I'll be able to spend some time with multiple cars without dealer involvement.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

matsayswhat said:


> The Golf R was never in the equation for me after having an R32 and just not being into how plain jane they look.
> 
> Finally I looked at S3s and was hesitant until I drove one and loved it. I ended up buying one and have had it for 1.5 years and am just shy of 10k miles. As a DD it's not quite as engaged in the way the BRZ was, but I still have fun driving it and the acceleration and ride at speed if very appreciated with the type of commute I have. The BRZ was noisy and peaky and while it was very analog, for as much as the car cost it just didn't have the oompf or the refinement I think it should have had for the price (which was as much as a GR STI when those were new). The S3 is very refined and even after a year and a half I still find myself noticing small details about the interior of the car and it's design that make me feel like not only is it a nice place to be, it's also probably the best modern interior I've ever seen in person. It's definitely the best car I've owned and I feel like overall that it's a better car than the BRZ even when adjusting for price.
> 
> ...


THanks for the input. I think we feel pretty similarly about a lot of things. The looks of the Golf R are one of its biggest negatives for me. I am looking for something a little more refined than the BRZ this time around, although I do love the sounds the BRZ makes (UEL Header, resonated Perrin exhaust). The M2 would be a near-ideal car for me (even the M240i would be fantastic), but the lack of rear doors and decent rear seat space kill it for me (we haven't heard anything on a 2-series grand coupe in a while). An RS3 would be great, but probably well outside of my budget. It might be worth saving for it, though.


----------



## jared_703 (Aug 17, 2016)

Smigelski said:


> Is the rear seat room in the S3 enough? Luckily I'm short, but a baby seat might be an issue in the future depending on how long I keep the car


Most cars are going to struggle to fit a baby seat infant carrier as it's reversed and takes up a lot of space. Once the kids are not rear facing this is usually way less of an issue.


----------



## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

*Correction*

So I chimed in earlier on the thread saying that I do not miss driving a manual. Now that the thread has made its way back to the top, I have to take that back...We just bought a new three pedal car for my wife, a Subaru Forester of all cars!!! It's not even a "good" manual trans, or a sporty car. Still I found myself just driving it...not worrying about what gear/driving/suspension mode I was in. I even have a second car with a manual transmission, but I still miss it in my daily. I love my S3 but I think I'm going back to 3 pedals when my lease is up.


----------



## maverickar15 (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm repeating a lot of other people's words here but you will really have to make that decision for yourself. I don't think a quick test drive is going to be good enough though.

I tried DSG in a few Golf / GTIs and the TC-SST in an Evo 10. While they can be fun for a lot of people I too felt like I was fooling myself without a 3rd pedal.

One of the biggest things that disengaged me from the experience was the following.

I could be in manual mode at any gear slowing down. As soon as I come to a stop it will automatically go back into first gear for me.
I know this is nitpicking but I don't have to take it out of gear and back into neutral when I'm stopped, even when I'm in manual mode.
That is when this whole immersion thing for me completely breaks down - reminding me it is still automatic (albeit very good) transmission.

I understand why it has to automatically go into first gear in manual mode when I'm stopped, but it just doesn't sit right with me.
Up until that point of stopping I was doing all the shifting with paddle shifter, but as soon as I stop the computer takes again takes over.
It is such a stark contrast for me that I would rather leave it in D / S and prefer it to actually act like an auto instead.
The more I drove DSG in manual mode the more I felt I was an unnecessary part of the DSG gearbox operation.

Am I completely alone in here with this or does anyone else think the same way?

Yes the shifts are lightning fast but jerky around town and at slow speeds compared to traditional auto. 
I almost prefer the high torque CVT in Forester XT / WRX these days because they are super smooth and simulates shifting quickly enough.

I used to think DSG would be better at the track and I'm sure it is in terms of raw times. But it is not for me, at least not at my skill level and not for what I'm looking to do at the track, which is just to have fun without speed limit.
Unless you are very serious about times I think manual can be still more fun even at the track, as you are always looking for that perfect shifts. It feels good to nail that shift corner after corner even if you are a bit slower.

One time I was racing a S2000 in my 06 STI around a track and he was way better driver than I was. I was trying to keep up with him but I was losing him... then he screwed up the downshift rev-match just before a corner and sent his car backwards into grass  It happens to everybody with a manual every once in a while and that sort of thing still keeps it interesting and hard to predict. 

When I had the 07 A3 hatchback I bought it in FWD even though it had an Audi badge which should mean I should get it with quattro, except that was only available with DSG. I never once regretted that decision, and was just fine with snow tires all around in Colorado. 

My friend also has a TT-RS with 6 speed and that thing is so much fun to drive around and I can't imagine having a DSG instead, even though it gives up ~0.4 seconds to 60 mph. 

I now live in the SF bay area and yes the traffic absolutely sucks. However I can still leave it in 2nd and not use brakes much to control my distance to the car in front of me just using less gas and looking ahead to predict when he is going to brake.
I'm more aware this way, I use less brake and I also don't have to take it out of gear as much. 

So long rant short I'm sort of in the same boat but manual is a must for me... If Audi had S3 sportback with 6 speed here in the U.S I would have already bought it.


----------



## evanescent03 (Sep 4, 2016)

I keep telling myself I would fall in love with autos (DCT, PDK, DSG...) but I keep failing. I had a 2015 M3 with DCT, traded it for a 2016 M3 with 6MT. Wanted to downgrade, got an S3, tracked it, didn't love it for the track or spirited driving (lovely for sprinting around town, but less engaging as I hoped). Kept the S3 for a DD and got a Boxster 718S with PDK... fast on track, but still missing the manual so I dumped the Porsche for a camaro SS 1LE.. perfect complement to the S3. well mannered, comfortable and quick S3 (juicebox tune), don't spill my coffee around town bc it's smooth (over bumps) and frees up a hand.

My vote would be for a manual Golf R for you... same dynamics as S3, but manual option. If you want something less high-school (sorry :-\) i'd get the best BMW you can afford. 340i or M3 .. 330i would be questionable bc they aren't as sporty as they used to be unfortunately and for sporty driving I'm not sure I can really recommend a non-M BMW for that purpose. Although depends on if you're actually doing autocross/track stuff with it or just enjoy the sporty handling on the street. I haven't driven a non-M 3 series for a couple years so maybe they tweaked the suspension & transmission settings some. Also I think the 2 series gran coupe should be coming out before long ... THAT should have your attention if u want fun, 4 doors, and a manual. RWD is a bonus.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

I went to the Philly auto show this passed weekend, and it was kind of a disappointment. I saw a lot of neat cars, no doubt, but there was no S3 and no Chevy SS. I played around a lot in the new A4 (which was also on my list), the A3, TT (because Virtual Cockpit), a 340i, and the Golf R. 

The 340i was a bit of a let down. The interior didn't strike me as anything interesting at all. And the sedan was an X-drive, and I guess those don't come automatically with the M-sport package like the RWD ones do. 
(*EDIT*: I do like the 340i overall. It's capability cannot be denied. But to get it optioned to a point where I'd be happy with it (like "luxury" features such as heated seats and a rear view camera), it would be decently more than I want to spend. The 330i is an option, but it lacks the pizazz I want.)


The A4 was nice, but at the end of the day, it didn't really have that 'special' factor that I am looking for, even with the longitudinal engine, manual transmission, and the non-Haldex quattro. 

After playing around with the TT for a while, I decided that the Virtual Cockpit was cool, but not worth $3,000 to me. I don't want the rest of the stuff in the package (navigation, internet connection), so the price is hard to swallow. Instead, I could get some other neat options that I like a bit better and still come in cheaper. 

So it's back down to a Golf R and the S3. And at least they had a Golf R there. I liked the R. A lot. The biggest sticking point for me is that the Golf R doesn't look the part it's trying to play. While it looks nice, it's dull. And with the manual trans - I've been reading about issues. There are some complaints about vague and spongy shifter feel, but I'm not sure how much I really want to pay attention to those. Then there's the issue with the clutch (slipping, not handling the power), and that's more of a concern to me. I know most only have the issues when the car is tuned, and I don't really want to tune anyway, but still.

The 2017 S3 got a few upgrades from the previous years - upgraded differentials that can handle 100% of the torque of the engine, and a more rearward bias to the AWD (especially in dynamic mode). I'm not sure that the Golf R got these upgrades. I haven't read anything about it.

After playing around with the configuration tool (after nixing VC), this is currently my ideal S3:

Premium Plus
Ara Blue
Dynamic Package
Bang & Olufsen stereo 
Red Calipers


I like the Ara Blue, and I figure it'll be pretty rare. It looks really good with red, hence the calipers. the Dynamic Package is a forgone conclusion - I like the wheels and the magnetic ride. The B&O system is a bit of a luxury, and I can be persuaded to drop it. If I didn't get Ara Blue, I'd go for Tango Red, and I'd drop the red calipers as well. I like the idea of the resonator delete kit, and I was originally going to get it. It's a port-installed option, and for the price, I'm better off buying the kit and installing it myself. Plus it would give me something to putz on with the car and I'd at least have the resonator to put back on if I wanted.

Back to the crux - the transmission. I think I can learn to love it. I know it shift quick, especially under heavy throttle. And the DSG farts are kind of cool. I might even get paddle extensions for the steering wheel. 

So I'm going to take a look at the S3 again this weekend. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## -LoneStar- (Aug 5, 2015)

Smigelski said:


> I went to the Philly auto show this passed weekend, and it was kind of a disappointment. I saw a lot of neat cars, no doubt, but there was no S3 and no Chevy SS. I played around a lot in the new A4 (which was also on my list), the A3, TT (because Virtual Cockpit), a 340i, and the Golf R.
> 
> The 340i was a bit of a let down. The interior didn't strike me as anything interesting at all. And the sedan was an X-drive, and I guess those don't come automatically with the M-sport package like the RWD ones do.
> (*EDIT*: I do like the 340i overall. It's capability cannot be denied. But to get it optioned to a point where I'd be happy with it (like "luxury" features such as heated seats and a rear view camera), it would be decently more than I want to spend. The 330i is an option, but it lacks the pizazz I want.)
> ...



While I'm not in the market to get a new car, I agree with you that at the price point you are looking at the pickings for a nice sport sedan are somewhat lacking. 

The BMW's are a joke in the sense that to get any type of luxury item, like heated seats, you have to include some $3k package. Even the reviews about them say how soft the 3 series has become over the years. I think Motortrend said the M2 was the first real BMW since the E46 M3 days. 

The Chevy SS is sweet but there's something about the exterior that I cant get over. It looks just so bland. I think how you feel about the R is how I feel about the SS. I love the performance, the interior, the tech seems great, its just the exterior that I haven't warmed up to. I thought I remember building one awhile back and you could swap the badges for Holden ones which might be cool. 

I have heard that the R's shifter is pretty crappy and can't hold much power over stock. I don't know how bad it is since I've never driven one. If it is that bad though would you really want to drive a chitty shifter just for the sake of rowing your own gears? I know I wouldn't and I'm a pretty die hard manual guy. I would also think the frustration of a bad shifter would take away from other positive aspects of the car because you would be constantly thinking about it. Think about it this way, if someone says 5 nice things about you and 1 bad thing you tend to remember and think about the 1 bad thing and forget or ignore the other 5 good things. 

The S3 is an enjoyable car. It does a lot of things pretty well. I truly think you will get over the fact its not a stick. 

The way you would like to option it out is all you really need too. The B&O is sweet. It sounds great and I'm not even a huge music buff. I will say that the standard system sounds pretty good too. The standard seats are very nice but the SS seats are pretty awesome. Look super sharp and if your a medium or under frame person they snug and hold very well. You could swing them if you dropped the Ara blue and red brakes or dropped the red brakes and B&O. Just a thought. The Dynamic package is a must as the standard 18's on the MY17 look pretty bad. The magnetic dampers are pretty sweet and you can feel a difference between the comfort mode and dynamic. 

The thing is you keep coming back to the S3 so that has to say something. I would drive every car you are considering. I would also ask to maybe take the car home for the night. I've had dealerships let me do this before. Test drives suck if you drive 5 miles and then bring it back. Its nice to see how the car functions over a 24 hour period. 

Good luck and report back with questions. I'll try to help you out :thumbup:


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

This past weekend we went to see three cars: Chevy SS, Audi S3, and the BMW 340i.

*Chevy SS*

Hilariously big, and drove big, but it handled competently. I was impressed. I loved the 6MT and the V8. It sounded fantastic. On the test drive I happened across a roundabout, so I rounded it 4 times. The salesman was not impressed. They were willing to do about $1k of of MSRP of the cars on the lot (2), which is kind of understandable. I wish Chevy was doing the 20% off sales again. I liked the car, she did not. In reality, it's way too big for my needs, but I figured I'd try it out as a wildcard. 










*BMW 340i*

It's a little bigger than I'd like, but at least it fits in the garage. I'm okay with that. I drove an automatic. The engine sounded great, pulled well. Lots of power. I did not get to test out the handling of the car very well. I find the dash and interior very bland and I hate the way BMW does options. The cold weather package _requires_ leather seats. Apple CarPlay _requires_ navigation, etc. And almost nothing of interest is included in the $47k base price. But the car drove well and it's the quintessential sports sedan. The sales guy "quoted" ~%6 off MSRP for an ordered car. Not bad, but still a litter higher than I wanted with the options I desire. She liked it a lot. #1 on her list. 










*Audi S3*

She was turned off majorly by its size ("it's a fancy Civic"), but I liked it a lot. Best interior of the three. I like the options it came with in the base configuration, but I'd at least want the Dynamic package. I like the way it drove (again). I was even starting to get used to the idea of owning a DSG transmission car. But her not liking it was a bit of a turn off. The biggest problem was the dealership didn't want to play ball with the price of an ordered car. They quoted me MSRP, and that I didn't care for at all. *Is that normal?* KBB/Edmunds says I should be able to get a couple grand off the price at least. 










*Back to BMW*

We went to another BMW dealer to see if they would do better on the price. This dealer was full of rude people. The entire dealership (~4 people) laughed when I mentioned that I wanted a manual. These guys would noto budge on MSRP and it took a lot of work just to get them to give me the numbers I needed to calculate a least (59% residual and .00134 MF). I won't be back.

*Upcoming Plans*

This weekend we are going to go to the Baltimore car show and look around again. This time I'm taking her with me, so she can see the cars (again). I plan on showing her the S3, 3-series, and a Golf R at the very least. Depending on the results of that, I may call up another Audi dealer and ask if they are willing to discount an ordered car (they have no S3s on the lot anyway) or check out another BMW with better reviews.


----------



## littleredwagen (May 31, 2004)

Smigelski said:


> This past weekend we went to see three cars: Chevy SS, Audi S3, and the BMW 340i.
> 
> *Chevy SS*
> 
> ...


You can definitely do better than MSRP on an order most people I've talked to got anywhere from 4-12% or so off MSRP. I was right at 12% myself after Audi Marketing money etc... mine was an order as well.


----------



## Hessen7R (May 2, 2016)

Why not a A4? Then get it tuned. Have you seen the S5 sedan sport back? Looks like a smaller version of the A7. Won't be released until next year, but damn, looks good. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Hessen7R said:


> Why not a A4? Then get it tuned. Have you seen the S5 sedan sport back? Looks like a smaller version of the A7. Won't be released until next year, but damn, looks good.


I briefly considered the A4, but it doesn't loo special enough and it's pretty big. 

After going to the Baltimore car show, we have narrowed the car choices down to what were my original two: The Golf R and the S3. I definitely took a round-about way to get back to the beginning. 

Between the two:

*Golf R*

(+)
Cheaper 
Manual
Available NOW in a single spec with a lot of stuff
Touch Screen in center console

(-)
Hatchback
Doesn't look as good
Didn't get the S3's AWD updates for 2017 (as far as I can tell)

*S3*

(+)
I love the classy sedan look
'Status' badge
Updated AWD with more rearward bias

(-)
DSG (but not too bad, I guess)
non-touchscreen, stupid clickwheel on center console (I'm left handed)
More expensive
I'd have to search around a lot for one with decent specs at a reasonable price


I've seen seen one dealer mark down a few Golf Rs to around $36k on its website. That seems like a screamin' deal for a 2017. Meanwhile, on lots I can't find S3s for les than $47k-$51k. Most have the Technology package that I don't really care for. 


Now that I have the mt future car nailed down, I have put my BRZ up for sale.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...aru-BRZ-Low-Mileage-Amazing-condtion-Maryland


----------



## Somejace (Jul 7, 2016)

Haven't looked back, loved having 6 speed but I'm still having fun with my a3 stage 2. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

To bring this thread full circle, I have come to a decision. I have purchased a car. Have I decided the S3 was worth giving up a manual transmission for? Answer: *No.* eace:

Meet my new Golf R:


----------



## India Whiskey Charlie (Feb 15, 2006)

Smigelski said:


> To bring this thread full circle, I have come to a decision. I have purchased a car. Have I decided the S3 was worth giving up a manual transmission for? Answer: *No.* eace: Meet my new Golf R:


Great car and color. Good to see that you came around to your original feelings about manual vs. automatic.:thumbup:


----------



## Hessen7R (May 2, 2016)

Happy modding. Looks clean in white. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hessen7R (May 2, 2016)

Hessen7R said:


> Happy modding. Looks clean in white.
> 
> Gratz
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jared_703 (Aug 17, 2016)

Congrats! 

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk


----------



## lucastony (Sep 15, 2009)

Smigelski said:


> To bring this thread full circle, I have come to a decision. I have purchased a car. Have I decided the S3 was worth giving up a manual transmission for? Answer: *No.* eace:
> 
> Meet my new Golf R:


How about a two week update? How are you liking the manual in the R? Better or worse than you thought it'd be?

Thanks!


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

lucastony said:


> How about a two week update? How are you liking the manual in the R? Better or worse than you thought it'd be?
> 
> Thanks!


So far I've gotten about 300 miles in the car. I haven't been able to push on the _Go_ pedal too much, but overall I like the car a lot. 

Here's the thread I started on the car in The Car Lounge: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8506602-I-Bought-A-Golf

As far s the manual itself goes, I do like it. It's not as 'connected' as the rear wheel drive cars I have (or had), but for a cable shifter, it's nice (though not as nice as some of Honda's). Overall, I like it and I have no problems with it. I've been reading a lot about the shifter linkage bushings and how replacing them is supposed to make a substantial difference in the feel of the shifter. I may do that at some point just to see what everyone is talking about. And for the price, I might as well. 

It's neat that the adaptive cruise control works with the manual, and the cruise doesn't shut itself off when you shift gears. So I can speed up or slow down based on the car in front of me and shift into the correct gear. 

The dealer I bought the car from does APR tunes and is (of course) encouraging me to tune the car. I know I'd need a clutch at that point as well, so I doubt I'll do that any time soon, if at all. Like I said, I haven't even really gotten to experience the stock power in this car yet. 

On the way home from the dealership I muttered to myself "I'm glad I got the stick" and so far I stand by that. I'm not sure how long stick shift cars will be available (especially in non-sports cars), so I'll enjoy them while I can. 

eace:


----------



## lucastony (Sep 15, 2009)

Smigelski said:


> So far I've gotten about 300 miles in the car. I haven't been able to push on the _Go_ pedal too much, but overall I like the car a lot.
> 
> Here's the thread I started on the car in The Car Lounge: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8506602-I-Bought-A-Golf
> 
> ...


You're awesome!  Thanks for the thread link -- just read the whole thing -- great info!


----------

