# another 16v itb build thread - V2.0



## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

ive been running bike throttles since christmas or so but came across a good deal on a set of used DCOE-pattern throttles and decided to upgrade. ive been gathering parts for a couple months now, and the install is in progress. i had a couple requests for pics and progress - so gere goes.
ill post all of the info from my thread on the local board, but heres a shot of what it looked like before V2.0 in progress.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

here are the throttles a day or two after i got them and gave them a good cleaning:
























then i thought i would polish the velocity stacks and stack extensions:
















i didnt bother working on the inside of the horns since they will always have filters on them and wont be seen after install.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

continuing on with more pictures.







i figured i may as well polish the bodies themselves along with the fuel rail and throttle bracket so that everything matches...
























the day i finished polishing the last pieces, the box of new stainless steel hardware showed up. this replaces all of the rusted hardware on the linkage, as well as new studs for the head, studs for the manifold, and for affixing the horns to the bodies...


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

a vacuum canister to store vacuum for the brakes.








malpassi regulator i had to order out of australia because i couldnt find a US dealer.








polished volvo oil cooler with 8AN adapters.








12-pass oil cooler with 8AN adapters.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

PROGRESS!
here is a shot of the new radiator being test fit yesterday. running the passat front lower rad support allowed me to run the full ABA radiator/fan setup without cutting. now that i am back to a normal height mk1/mk2 radiator, there is plenty of room above the rad to get fresh air into the throttles. the new radiator is out of an '83 quantum and is 27.5" between the end tanks.








theres MAYBE 1/8" of clearance between the stacks and the alternator...








a shot of where i mounted the regulator. ill finish the plumbing near the end. i also took the time to relocate the passenger side lighting harness. this involved pulling it the whole way back to the drivers side, then stripping all the plastic off and re-wrapping from there out. it really cleaned things up here...








an overall shot of the progress as of this evening. you can see i finally mounted the vacuum canister, and also hid the wideband controller behind it out of sight. im running 3/8" silicone tubing from the canister to the booster, and using an elbow from an S10 at the booster. perfect size.








thanks to the quantum radiator i can delete the expansion tank and related hoses which in turn cleans this side of the bay up a bit. hard to tell now with everything strewn about though... more go-kart throttle cabling in use on this set as well. i had the perfect amount left for this setup.








heres a pretty good look at how much lower the radiator sits for those that were wondering. keep in mind this is the same height radiator as a stock mk2. i changed my mind on oil cooler mounting and am currently thinking that ill run over the radiator and right down to the sandwich plate as shown. theres almost no room on either side of that enormous radiator. you can also see the relocated passenger lighting harness poking out under the core support waiting to be finished and routed.








thats about it for this weekend. doesnt looks like i got very far, but i assure you theres a lot of time involved with test fitting 3 radiator setups, plus different fan setup and all the mockups i was doing along the way before making up my mind on things.
i ordered (2) 12" electric fans to replace the mk3 ABA fans that wouldnt fit anymore. the radiator sits so low that the dual-fan fan motor electrical connector sat on the starter solenoid. motor movement would have snapped it off pretty quickly. i even flipped the whole fan setup upside down but the deep portion of the shroud hit the alternator. again, no good. kinda forced into the twin fans at that point...
as always: need more pics of something or have any questions - just ask!


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

heres an update from tonight. it was a really nice night outside and things went really well.
here you can see the block-off plate and the revised breather routing behind the halt bracket and below the edge of the head. in order to remove the factory oil warmer from the system - you need an 8v pump to head hose, and the straight hose from the crack pipe to the pump from any 8v that didnt have the oil warmer. the lower rad hose is a g60 hose.








yes, i know this ones a bit out of focus since i took them after dark but oh well. here is the sandwich plate and oil cooler hose routing i came up with. you can also see the hose splice i made at the lower rad outlet to go over the front crossmember and down to the g60 pipe.








and last but not least for the evening is a shot of the 12" electric fan installed. i have another fan on the way - they messed up my order and forgot to ship it. also another look at the oil cooler hose routing.


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## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

everything looks really nice, the passat rad support was a great idea and that vaccuum canister is a nifty piece http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (Mk2enthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mk2enthusiast* »_the passat rad support was a great idea

thanks. i first used one on a vr6 swap i did a few years ago and decided to run a mk3 rad setup on this car and did it again. everything seems to be working out pretty well with the new setup as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Those Mendra's old Pumas? Looking good!


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Those Mendra's old Pumas?

yes they are


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Those Mendra's old Pumas? Looking good!

Yeah he blinged the **** out of them.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*

Damn straight he did.


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*

How did you manage to get into some of those spaces for polishing?
Looks awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_How did you manage to get into some of those spaces for polishing?
Looks awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

it was all done on a buffing wheel from 180 greaseless up to white rouge. thanks for the comments guys! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Nice work, clean install and nice attention to detail. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

very nice.
what parts are involved in that radiator setup? I want to do something similar, without spending a ton on a mini aluminum radiator.


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## Low_Dub (Jun 19, 2004)

what are you using for engine management ?


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (Low_Dub)*

ms-1 v2.2, hi-res code.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_what parts are involved in that radiator setup?

youll need a passat rad support to install it because the filler neck is on the pass side of this radiator. if you use the 20.5" core rabbit one you can use a stock support but wont get free area above the rad. 
using the rad with filler neck lets you delete the expansion tank and associated hoses. cap the crack pipe with a plug and youre good to go with some custom rad hoses.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (mk2dubbin)*

got the car up and running yesterday. it took me about 6 hours to get the cooling system bubbles worked out. running straight water now because it boiled the rest out... 
















































i have sock filters on there for driving but didnt take any pics of them. they come about 1/4" shy of the rad support and fit perfectly.


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## Alex g (Apr 20, 2005)

those bodies looks so nice, nothing like polishing nice billet alloy


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (dubstarmk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubstarmk2* »_those bodies looks so nice, nothing like polishing nice billet alloy

thanks!


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Me likey.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Me likey.

you should - its just a highly watered-down version of your car!


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*








- Your car is quite sweet, don't under rate it like that.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*

ive had several requests for my msq, so here it is as of yesterday:
My latest MSQ
Note: MS1, V2.2, 09C Hi-Res code.


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Any updates on the car? I wanna see this setup completed and running http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_Any updates on the car? I wanna see this setup completed and running http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









its completed and running. the last pics above are of the finished product - minus the filters of course. it goes on the dyno this weekend at aptuning's dyno day.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

for those that are interested:
my coolant temps have been consistently in the 197-200 range even with some very spirited driving last night. cooling system right now is straight water with a stock thermostat and low temp fan switch. 
oil temps stayed around 212 but hit 218 heading up the small mountain by my house after the spirited run and whatnot.
finally got around to ordering a carb sync tool (snail shaped one) so i can balance everything out.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

back from the dyno this morning. sorry to those who showed up to see the runs only to find out they ran me early...








first off, heres the dyno chart from last may. specs were then:
bone stock 2.0l 16v with autotech cams
digi1 management with 16v cams chip
header/exhaust








and now todays run. specs are:
stock 2.0l 16v bottem end 
mild p/p 1.8l head with autotech cams and springs, tapered guides
megasquirt SEM
header/exhaust
45mm itb's








so im pretty disappointed overall that i lost 1whp and gained 3wtq. however, i know the power is there i just need to learn how to tune better. this was a street tune i did by myself, and i think it performed fairly well overall in comparison to before.
here is the msq i used for all three runs (ms1 v2.2 hires 09c):
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...o.msq
here is a complete datalog of all three runs:
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...s.xls
and last but not least - a video clip of each run. each file is 3mb, and be sure to have the latest divx installed or it probably wont work. special thanks to THE REV for taking the time to come and video the runs for me!
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...1.wmv
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...2.wmv
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...3.wmv



_Modified by mk2dubbin at 3:01 PM 7-14-2007_


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

wow - i didnt even get any haters saying how crappy my car is... haha.
like i said - the power is in there it just needs coaxed out. its hard to see in these pics but @ 3k rpm +/-, ive achieved roughly a 12-15 ft-lb increase in torque at the wheels. look at that area and compare new to old and you see a dramatic change in the shape of the torque curve in this area.
i am also up roughly 5whp from start to about 5500rpm - it just didnt follow thru beyond the torque peak. once i put the 276's in and get it street tuned again i may look into either dyno tuning it myself or aquiring someone to assist in dyno tuning. ive gotta save up some $$ before then for that as that part gets expensive quite fast...


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## vwtoys (Mar 31, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Maybe some hotter cams than the autotechs? My bro's 16v (the way he bought it) had 276/268 Schricks running regular Motronic with a stock 1.8 head on a stock 2.0 bottom. The motor made 126whp with a crappy tune. You have a much better breathing and fueling setup so it has so much more potential. 
I love the throttles! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_wow - i didnt even get any haters saying how crappy my car is... haha.


Na you are still making decent power, and you car looks good doing it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The power increase down low had to have helped improve the feel of the car


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## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*

everything looks great keep at it!


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_Na you are still making decent power, and you car looks good doing it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The power increase down low had to have helped improve the feel of the car

thanks! the low range torque increase totally transformed the car. i drive a mostly stockish 16v as my daily driver and the two cars have a night and day difference in feel to them.


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_
thanks! the low range torque increase totally transformed the car. i drive a mostly stockish 16v as my daily driver and the two cars have a night and day difference in feel to them. 

Now to talk the GF into letting me do this to her 16v...








I think bigger cams will wake up a little bit more power in your setup, but the tuning will do more.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*

ultimately id like to see what i could squeeze out of this setup, but i dont think ill waste my $$ on dyno tuning it. ive had a set of TT 276 cams sitting waiting to go in the car for a few months now, so maybe once they are installed and street tuned - ill make the jump to dyno tuning.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

heres a quick excel graph i put together to better show the gains i DID get. its a little choppy due to my extrapolation points, but gives a better feel for the two graphs together.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

I think the car still has more in it with the present cams, but if you're going to 276's then put them in and tune the setup with them. At least you know you are making progress. When I went to ITB's on the 8v it made less torque but more a little more hp the first time on the dyno - and it held the power further into the rpm range, some tuning brought more power and again holding it deeper in the rpms.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_When I went to ITB's on the 8v it made less torque but more a little more hp the first time on the dyno

that was the behaviour i was expecting to see in my situation as well. thanks for all your great advise!


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

i know its been a bit now since the dyno, but Tom was able to send me the run files for me to play with in the dynojet software and overlay the runs. 
first off is a comparison of the two itb runs from the 14th. note the affect the richer afr had on the dyno results. without looking at my datalog, i would have to guess that it was a result of the air density correction factor i was running to compensate for heatsoak. 








secondly is the actual overlay of the digi1 run with the better MS itb run:


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

That is a HUGE difference in AFR over the Digi 1
Looks to be much smoother


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_That is a HUGE difference in AFR over the Digi 1
Looks to be much smoother


+1 but why did you lean it out once it left almost idle? wouldnt you want it to be more rich up top? just curious Im just learning this stuff myself


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (eaturhonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eaturhonda* »_+1 but why did you lean it out once it left almost idle? wouldnt you want it to be more rich up top? just curious Im just learning this stuff myself

its set for 15.8afr during cruise. when dynoing they get the car rolling steady around 2k rpm, then go WOT. the afr is that high because it was in low-load cruising when they hit the throttle.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

stupidity strikes again...
ive been fighting what i thought was a bad tps sensor. a good tps in megatune will generally run from below 30 counts to around 200 counts. mine went from 104-245, and it cruised at around 200. barely touching the throttle would send the tps thru 90 counts on a whim - plus it wasnt a repeatable signal. i had it tuned around this problem and it ran well enough to drive but it wasnt smooth.
i looked into it and talked to some people for ideas on what was wrong and if it was a sign of a bad tps. finally checked the voltage and was getting the correct 5v supply, but instead of a 0-5v sweep it was giving a 2-5v sweep. friday night i had a little more time to mess with it and thru testing voltages and whatnot i determined that reversing the signal and +5v wires gave me a 5v supply and a 0-5v sweep. strange, thats backwards... 
so i went back to the wiring diagrams and it turns out i am an idiot and wired it backward. on top of that i think i wired the last throttles wrong as well because i had it in my head that those wires were the other way around. i had similar symptoms on the last ones as well... DOH!







so now the counts went from 9-152 which was close but still not quite what i was expecting. i jammed the pedal down to the floor and went out and checked throttle rotation - hmm ive still got 1/4" of rotation before the throttles hit the stop... so in the end i cut 1/2-3/4" off of the pedal stop so that i could move the pedal far enough to open the throttles fully. now my sweep is 9-200 and is repeatable...


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_stupidity strikes again...
ive been fighting what i thought was a bad tps sensor. a good tps in megatune will generally run from below 30 counts to around 200 counts. mine went from 104-245, and it cruised at around 200. barely touching the throttle would send the tps thru 90 counts on a whim - plus it wasnt a repeatable signal. i had it tuned around this problem and it ran well enough to drive but it wasnt smooth.
i looked into it and talked to some people for ideas on what was wrong and if it was a sign of a bad tps. finally checked the voltage and was getting the correct 5v supply, but instead of a 0-5v sweep it was giving a 2-5v sweep. friday night i had a little more time to mess with it and thru testing voltages and whatnot i determined that reversing the signal and +5v wires gave me a 5v supply and a 0-5v sweep. strange, thats backwards... 
so i went back to the wiring diagrams and it turns out i am an idiot and wired it backward. on top of that i think i wired the last throttles wrong as well because i had it in my head that those wires were the other way around. i had similar symptoms on the last ones as well... DOH!







so now the counts went from 9-152 which was close but still not quite what i was expecting. i jammed the pedal down to the floor and went out and checked throttle rotation - hmm ive still got 1/4" of rotation before the throttles hit the stop... so in the end i cut 1/2-3/4" off of the pedal stop so that i could move the pedal far enough to open the throttles fully. now my sweep is 9-200 and is repeatable... 
















Glad you solved your issue.


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*

Well maybe now you can get a few more to the ground. Get it on the dyno again. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsrphat* »_Well maybe now you can get a few more to the ground. Get it on the dyno again. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

the throttle not being wide open potentially limited my overall hp output, but not necessarily. they were probably still flowing all the air the head could handle with the autotech cams. if i were running bigger cams it may have been affecting the outcome.
althought i wouldnt mind running the car on the dyno again to compare my speed density vs alpha-n tunes - i dont see it happening any time soon and by the time i get around to it the 276's should be installed...


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## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

good thread....nice car keep us posted http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (redGTInj)*

i changed out to a long 2-piece manifold now and thought i would share so people can see how much longer they really are. they are a full 2" longer than the regular pierce/twm short manifold. i know the rowland chadil and dibilas are all different and i cant compare to them.
powdercoated pierce/twm long manifolds. i drilled and tapped them and installed the vacuum fittings.
















a parting shot of the old setup:








i can finally run the phenolic spacer again with this manifold since i can use studs everywhere in the head, plus a good look at the abf front water neck in case i didnt post it from the first round.








all installed except the alternator - the 120A vr6 alt i was using is too big now for this manifold so i need to get a 90A again. a 60A would be great, but theres about zero chance of finding one...








front shot of the same:








and another one with the grille off just for fun!


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

TB's looking a little dirty - shine em up.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Where did you get that ABF water neck? I need to get one of those, or something similar


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

John,
Rodney at JRC has em, head over to the HC site....


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_TB's looking a little dirty - shine em up.









they are pretty crusty... however, since i wont be showing at h2o unlike you - i'm good.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_
they are pretty crusty... however, since i wont be showing at h2o unlike you - i'm good.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

I was going to point out that you did gain some nice low/mid range torque. I agree with you though, it's in the tune, get it mint and that'll be a very fun car to drive. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (secondgen)*

anxious to see this in ocean city


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (Mk2enthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mk2enthusiast* »_anxious to see this in ocean city









it will be there!


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Better be.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Better be.

dont worry, ill make your car look fast for you just like we agreed.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_
dont worry, ill make your car look fast for you just like we agreed.









WTF ? lol - it's on now.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_it's on now.


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

I love this build bro giving me lots of good ideas on what to do for mine. Are you running msns or just ms? Also when you tune it do you play with the cam gear at all or have you just set it in one spot and call it a day?
and how come you let it drop off at 6800 rpm, you have ITBs!!! take it atleast to 7200 or something before you cut it off


_Modified by eaturhonda at 8:43 PM 9-12-2007_


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (eaturhonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eaturhonda* »_Are you running msns or just ms? Also when you tune it do you play with the cam gear at all or have you just set it in one spot and call it a day?

msns-e, ms1 v2.2, hires code hr_10d2. i have had the cam gear advanced up to 3* in the past but found i didnt really need it once i added some timing down low and increased the torque. when i put the 276 cams in i may go back to the 3* advanced because i dont go around revving the snot out of the car ALL of the time...


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (eaturhonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eaturhonda* »_and how come you let it drop off at 6800 rpm, you have ITBs!!! take it atleast to 7200 or something before you cut it off

this motor doesnt make any more power above 6800 as you can tell from the diagram. and since its a dyno, i dont need to over-rev to keep the next gear in the powerband going down the track. 
its not a honda and isnt made to rev like one. the 16v motor is notoriously unbalanced internally as it is.


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

gotcha, Im just asking because even my basically stock 16v with tt street cams will pull to 7k before I switch gears and if you have ITBs I figured it could go even further but I guess its based on the cams you have and the tune its got, but I respect you concern for the safety of your motor looks sweet bro


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (eaturhonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eaturhonda* »_gotcha, Im just asking because even my basically stock 16v with tt street cams will pull to 7k before I switch gears and if you have ITBs I figured it could go even further but I guess its based on the cams you have and the tune its got, but I respect you concern for the safety of your motor looks sweet bro

Revving to 7k and actually still making power there are 2 different things.


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (WolfGTI)*

it does the butt dyno says so, I used to never take it that high till I found there was still potential up there, but its not something I usually do since the motor is stock on everything else


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (eaturhonda)*

finally installed the TT276 cams, semi-polished valve cover (i got bored and stopped - short attention span







), added a LW crank pulley, and the ABF alt setup with a 70A alt.
updated pic:


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

So how do the 276's feel? And does it pull any extra at or above 7k rpm? It does look good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_So how do the 276's feel? And does it pull any extra at or above 7k rpm? It does look good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

the engine revs quicker, and the power seems smoother. a lot of the mid-range 'bog' has gone away and power delivery seems to constantly build as the revs increase - though theres no significant power increase above a certain rpm range like many have experienced from what ive read. quite possibly due to the way i have my timing and fuel setup at this point. all in all: i would say that the bottom end showed the most improvement, and thats probably because the timing may be closer to optimal. 
previously i would have had to really try to break the tires loose if i were driving in first and nailed the gas, but now its pretty effortless. and i really have to be careful pulling out on gravel because the power off-idle is so strong. on a heavy pedal mash, it bogs down a bit and really hows how much i need some professional dyno tuning. 
i also really am not getting the most benefit from the cams since my head only has a little bit of bowl and port smoothing done. head flow is probably the other main thing that is limiting the potential of this setup. 
also, the ear candy is greatly increased with the 276's vs the autotechs. coming into 'the powerband' around 3800-4300 under load they really scream at you. not performance related but everyone likes cool noises


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

looks good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif cool noises http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















that is great, I don't know anything about MS other than what I've read, but isn't there a "tuning" mode to put it in while you're driving to help in the tuning? If this is your daily, I'd have that thing working for me. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Just my .02.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (ps2375)*

no, its not my daily. the car is street tuned and runs pretty well, thers just more in there to be brought out on a dyno.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (vwtoys)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwtoys* »_Maybe some hotter cams than the autotechs? My bro's 16v (the way he bought it) had 276/268 Schricks running regular Motronic with a stock 1.8 head on a stock 2.0 bottom. The motor made 126whp with a crappy tune. You have a much better breathing and fueling setup so it has so much more potential. 
I love the throttles! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

How do you tune Motronic?







, you can only chip it, the only cis system that you can tune is Cis-e...


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## mxman (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

he's only running 28-29 degrees advance up top








which injectors are you running?
Is it just me or are you running 11:1 or maybe SLIGHTLY leaner at wot? to idle at 22 ve and then be revving up and hitting 90 ve in the high rpm is pretty nutso... 
BTW, you also if you haven't...check your tpsdot you should change it to the point where ACCEL DECEL enrich aren't turning off and on a bunch, it really throws the engine off a lot...








What I try to do with the advance table around idle is to make a 500 rpm 800 1200 rpm bins .. something like that... and try to catch the idle in the middle if you can or try making 4 bins where if the idle rpm varies at all try to capture the idle in that area so it doesn't have more and less advance making further idle like poop... another thing you can do is try and capture the range of map variance and try to make sure your 4 or so idle advance spots are slightly above and below those ammounts... makes for a little better idle too








duty cycle around 75% supposedly?
what do you think ryan?
btw i have your msq and log loaded... are they sure their dyno afr is right?
Bug me on aim mxmang on your list ttyl (i realize after i read all this that you threw the cams in and played with some settings LOL)


_Modified by mxman at 3:33 AM 11-20-2007_


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mxman)*

ive changed a lot of things since the dyno, but my wot timing is about the same - even on my alpha-n tune. its pretty safe until i can get it dyno-tuned a bit.
i am running stock g60 injectors.
dont worry about the ve sweep. i am not running a vacuum signal into the remote fpr - hence the really low idle ve numbers. 
my AE seems to be working pretty well - totally different msq than whats posted though.
ive never had a problem with idle - only warmup - and that was lack of extra air. i am currently using a 16v 2-wire isv, and it fires right up every time. 
yes - about 75% duty cycle even with the 276 cams in there now. 
yes they are sure about the dyno afr. they told me straight off that the dyno afr would be i think about a half point leaner than my wideband. or vice-versa - i cant remember anymore. lol.


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## mxman (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

the dyno says 13:1 and your msq said 11:1 or something... lol


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re:*

Can you give a little more details on the passat radiator support? which years? which part?


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: (wantacad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wantacad* »_Can you give a little more details on the passat radiator support? which years? which part?









B3 Passat. The part under the radiator. You do have to cut off the tow hook or both front corners if you are running fog lights to make it fit though.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Re: (frechem)*


_Quote, originally posted by *frechem* »_
B3 Passat. The part under the radiator. You do have to cut off the tow hook or both front corners if you are running fog lights to make it fit though.

Interesting. I'll have to keep my eye out in the junkyards for one. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: Re: (wantacad)*

how do the 276s feel at idle?


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (eaturhonda)*

they idle pretty smooth. with itb's the individual cylinder pulses dont affect the other cylinders so you dont really have a lumpy idle.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (mk2dubbin)*

heres my dyno results from yesterday:








Max power: 158.92
Max Torque: 131.57


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: Re: (mk2dubbin)*

Told you a long time ago your car had [email protected] the wheels easily. 
FYI looking @ the dyno - it flattens up top like mine did with the exhaust being the restriction, my motor behaved like that before the header. I am guessing a little more port work on the exhaust side and 2.5 inch pipe will give you a little more oomph up high.
Still - very excellent #'s.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (WolfGTI)*

Either advance the cam gear to bring the peak rpm down a bit, or rev that pig another 500rpm higher. Good stuff. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Told you a long time ago your car had [email protected] the wheels easily. 
FYI looking @ the dyno - it flattens up top like mine did with the exhaust being the restriction, my motor behaved like that before the header. I am guessing a little more port work on the exhaust side and 2.5 inch pipe will give you a little more oomph up high.

interesting thought - i wouldnt have expected to hit the limit on the 2.25" exhaust already... i would guess exhaust porting (lack thereof) to be the biggest culprit. its only running a bosal/brospeed street header, gutted cat, and a TT exhaust though so perhaps there is some restriction there. i ran this exhaust on my jetta previously and it was 10x quieter...


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## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Re: (mk2dubbin)*

Head porting is one of the restrictions. Header if you don't have one. With the parts you have and the head work and header will add a significant amount of power. My 9A woke up with the head work. Example - 83MM bore, shelf stock JE pistons, 283 cams, 50mm euro intake, header etc... pulled 154WHP, head work brought it north of 170.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (rivethead)*

yea, i believe the time for headwork is quickly approaching. unfortunately it will be quite a while until i can save up enough for that! 
my current list is ignition, new filter setup, and now a race header and 2.5" exhaust thanks to mendra's past experience and recommendation. i think that list pretty well uses up the "bolt-on" type power mods at this point.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: Re: (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_yea, i believe the time for headwork is quickly approaching. unfortunately it will be quite a while until i can save up enough for that! 


Everything takes steps man, it great to see you progress as you move along though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: Re: (WolfGTI)*

Amazing setup man.
I have a couple questions.
1. Where do I find an ABF water outlet? I have checked BFI and techtonics already.
2. Where do i get sock filters like yours?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: (oopseyesharted)*

water outlet http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_...lange
there could be a more reasonably priced alternative available.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_water outlet http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_...lange
there could be a more reasonably priced alternative available.

there stuff is cool, i just dont see spending 150 bucks to reroute a hose.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Re: (oopseyesharted)*

PM rhussjr I got mine from him, it's OEM and works great.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_PM rhussjr I got mine from him, it's OEM and works great.

I did. He doesnt have them right now. The search continues.


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## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: Re: (oopseyesharted)*

At the time I had no welder, I paid $10 to have the factory piece cut and welded to model an abf


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Mk2enthusiast)*


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: (mk2dubbin)*

nice filtration! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif where did you get that setup?


_Modified by ps2375 at 8:26 AM 3-23-2008_


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## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: Re: (ps2375)*

you have any recent MSQs? i was looking at your old datalogs but you prob have it tuned better now. If there is a TPS i would def use Alpha N and run off the TPS sensor instead of speed density with the map sensor. Naturally asp motors ... esp itb motors run 100% better it seems with Alpha N due to the erratic map signal from the itbs.
And what wideband are you using? I understand that datalog is old but it looks like its rich as hell on the top pull. Im sure you changed it by now.
_edit_ 
read above you tried alpha n... did you like it any better? it seems to make every ms car ive seen run alot smoother. it will make more power up top if you tune it to around 13.5 WOT, and if its a LC1 wideband the switchpoint should be 2.352. post a new msq and i can prob help you out a bit.
"ive never had a problem with idle - only warmup" 

_Modified by oilpangasket at 8:53 PM 3-30-2008_


_Modified by oilpangasket at 8:54 PM 3-30-2008_


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (oilpangasket)*

i am sorta in the process of retuning a bit since the new filters breathe a lot better. the VE table increased around 4-5 points in most places based on the little bit ive driven it since then. 
alpha-n is infinitely better than SD on my car, and i am using the map sensor for constant baro too - so that keeps everything happy on the mountains. i am using an lc-1 and i think i have my afr table set for around 13.2 afr at WOT. 

thanks for the comments!


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## TehLonz (Oct 5, 2006)

*Re: Re: (mk2dubbin)*

nice #'s


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: Re: (TehLonz)*

Uni Filter make the Filter?


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: (buttbump)*

uni filter australia only.


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## H2Zero (Apr 25, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_...... i am currently using a 16v 2-wire isv, and it fires right up every time. 

would really like to see pic of how u mount your ISV, I have problem with cold start (due to flooding) and once started it idle as if on 3 cyclinder but once warm up its OK.... appreciate your comments/advice.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (H2Zero)*

you can barely see it in this pic; the red filter just past the #4 runner. it plumbed in between the throttles and the vacuum tank.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Interesting. So you actually have the isv running off MS?
What version are you running again?
Setup looks great!


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_Interesting. So you actually have the isv running off MS?
What version are you running again?
Setup looks great!

yes, the isv was running off of MS1 V2.2 fidle output per the manual.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

Very interesting. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dubsrphat)*

i am in the middle of tuning my itb 16v. i was wondering if you could send me some msq's to help me get runing better


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## elveloz69 (Aug 26, 2006)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (vwjunkie42)*

nice! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif kinda low hp







but nice


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (elveloz69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elveloz69* »_nice! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif kinda low hp







but nice









low hp? 158.9whp really isnt too bad for a stock block and a really mild head... assuming a 12% driveline loss (typical vw loss) 175 crank hp is pretty decent considering its 40hp more than stock.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*

This is a very nice setup. It looks like we may have some ITB's for our 16V mkI scirocco to install this next off season. It's only a 1.8l and we have the exhaust cam mod and should have a tt race header soon. If we can get to 150whp range, I'll be thrilled. Hopefully it'll look half as good as yours does. Very good work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_
low hp? 158.9whp really isnt too bad for a stock block and a really mild head... assuming a 12% driveline loss (typical vw loss) 175 crank hp is pretty decent considering its 40hp more than stock.









Looks real good sounds great to








Want to go EFI with my rocco but the carbs work so good and i have no drivability problems at all Plus it put down 150whp for the last 2 years and the block has about 280km's(170k miles i think?) on it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dmitry88 (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (impulse byer)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (dmitry88)*

for those of you who like burnouts, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...annel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-sxpJIO1Hk
blowing a set of 15" donuts for the fun of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRWDlu-Wsu8


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## danzig20v (Feb 9, 2006)

*Re: another 16v itb build thread - V2.0 (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_for those of you who like burnouts, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...annel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-sxpJIO1Hk
blowing a set of 15" donuts for the fun of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRWDlu-Wsu8

oooooo man awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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