# Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste?



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

i was thinking of build a track motor and i really have my mind set on a 20v 2.0 with itbs. now i can get itbs for less that 100 and im goin stand alone anyway. and injectors and all that have to be bought any way so why do so mch ppl feel its a waste. im just curious before i dip if feet into this.. i want to do something different . and i think itbs is a good way.. what are the pros and cons of such a setup.. besides price.. is there any proof that it is in fact a waste of money?? or is that just one of the typical vortex myths cuz noone wants to spend the money or are scare of how hard the tunig woudl be.


----------



## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jok3sta* »_ or is that just one of the typical vortex myths cuz noone wants to spend the money 

IMHO, I think that it's a myth, I think the idea is that, since you're forced induction, the throttle body isn't really limitation to the amount of airflow, IMHO, ITB with four velocity stacks and forced induction would still flow a lot better.... I don't know though, I doubt anybody here has a proven answer for it either yay or nay


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (mechsoldier)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif yah eveyrone always says its a waste of money but ive never seen anyone prove why


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*

I belive they say that because you would still be flowing a larger volume of air with FI and the stock manifold, than with the less restrictive ITB setup N/A. But in truth a short runner intake such as atp's or some of the homade ones are in essence ITB setups but without the flow restricting throttle bodies. ITB's are like a short runner with an infinite plenum volume. Get yourself a short runner intake mani like all the big boys are using.


----------



## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*

It's a great idea & it's been done before on factory Nissans. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Select versions of the legendary SR20Det have 4 ITBs inside a log style plenum.
IIRC these engines made 250hp stock but are ridiculously overbuilt to handle serious amounts of boost.
If you can boost ITBS affordably go for it, you'll probably be the first one to do it with a VW. 
People have a really tough time thinking out of the box here. Unless you use the factory junk you're going to have to fab up a logstyle intake anyway, why not enclose 4 ITBS?
Fact: stock VW Intakes suck ass for flow, in NA or FI form.
It won't be a waste of money next to a stock intake manifold but you can probably make the same amount of power with a well designed log style manifold w/ say a VR6 TB or Ford 5.0+. Technically the 4 ITBS will be more responsive regardless. What kind of TBS are they? Hiyabusa, other motorcyle, I doubt you found TWMS for $100. 
look here:
http://www.se-r.net/multimedia...e.jpg




















_Modified by Digiracer at 1:27 PM 1-4-2005_


----------



## scott66 (Jul 5, 2003)

hes not the first one to do it on a VW though, it has been doen before......let me see if i can dig it up.


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (Digiracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Digiracer* »_It's a great idea & it's been done before on factory Nissans. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Select versions of the legendary SR20Det have 4 ITBs inside a log style plenum.
IIRC these engines made 250hp stock but are ridiculously overbuilt to handle serious amounts of boost.
If you can boost ITBS affordably go for it, you'll probably be the first one to do it with a VW. 
People have a really tough time thinking out of the box here. Unless you use the factory junk you're going to have to fab up a logstyle intake anyway, why not enclose 4 ITBS?
Fact: stock VW Intakes suck ass for flow, in NA or FI form.
It won't be a waste of money next to a stock intake manifold but you can probably make the same amount of power with a well designed log style manifold w/ say a VR6 TB or Ford 5.0+. Technically the 4 ITBS will be more responsive regardless. What kind of TBS are they? Hiyabusa, other motorcyle, I doubt you found TWMS for $100. 
look here:
_Modified by Digiracer at 1:27 PM 1-4-2005_

thanx man for good words. lol.. you are def right though people are scared to think out of the box. i think i mite just go ahead and do this.. and ill throw it ina mk3 jetta to make even more unique..







im looking on ebay and i see various tbs for sale rangin from 50-200

_Quote »_ Get yourself a short runner intake mani like all the big boys are using.


which is exactly why i want sumthin different..


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: (scott66)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scott66* »_hes not the first one to do it on a VW though, it has been doen before......let me see if i can dig it up.

yah i remember seeing one done on a 16v aba before.. and it had a sick intake mani.. individual runners to the tbs header style sick!!


----------



## scott66 (Jul 5, 2003)

*Re: (jok3sta)*

here is a post with a pic....towards the bottom
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1739618

plus his last post has his website with the build up pics and stuff


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: (scott66)*

yah i saw that already.. trust me ive been all over the tex lol


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jok3sta* »_i was thinking of build a track motor and i really have my mind set on a 20v 2.0 with itbs. now i can get itbs for less that* 100 *and im goin stand alone anyway. . 

For $100 I doubt there very big.Maybe 40mm if so much.You should seriously look into a set of these...
Some 45mm basterds.
ITB's on a Turbo motor are a waste in the sense that Kits are expensive and all the ITB's will do is increase throttle response and aid in the initiation of vaccuum to boost.ITB's should be the LAST modification you make to a Turbo engine as money should be spent on other things,but if money isnt an issue then go out with a Bang!








Enjoy the pics


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (Wizard-of-OD)*

what TB's are those?


----------



## purple-pill (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*

main reason it is not done...is because for the extra a 1200 bucks or so it would cost to acquire a set of ITB's is off set by turning the boost up 2-3lbs to make up for any extra power that ITB's would/could produce.....most people would opt for the boost instead.....but if have the money and want to do it, do it. 90% of people dont because they are on a budget.
my .02


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (purple-pill)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jok3sta* »_what TB's are those?

Yamaha 45mm Throttle Bodies,Found on the SR20DET and 4A-GE

_Quote, originally posted by *purple-pill* »_main reason it is not done...is because for the extra a 1200 bucks or so it would cost to acquire a set of ITB's is off set by turning the boost up 2-3lbs to make up for any extra power that ITB's would/could produce 

Thats right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Like I said once your engine is vomiting out pressure (i.e. Boost) then ITB's are pointless.ITB's will only help in the "Engine sucking air to Engine Vomiting air stage" (i.e. Engine Vaccuum to Engine Boost).After that they arnt going to do anything that a normal plenum + 1TB wont do. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

ITB's allow you to use either a VERY large, or infinite (atmosphere) plenum, without hurting throttle responce. 
thats the point of them. 
Once your FI, then you can only run a BIG plenum with them... For guys who are drag racing and such there is no advantage at all. We've made 800+ whp on a b series with just an edlebrock extreme intake manifold, the ITB's are nothing more then an overcomplicated mess. 
PITA and pain in the wallet.


----------



## HAMgolf (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

just trow an additional like 1 pound of boost and bam that makes up for not having itbs


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jok3sta* »_or is that just one of the typical vortex myths cuz noone wants to spend the money or are scare of how hard the tunig woudl be. 

that saying might be true in the other forums(Golf I-IV) but in here...there are people that have spent more on the their car than their house.
I for one neglect everthing around me for my car.
I like what HamGolf said too.


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (vdubspeed)*

In addition to the fact that you aren't gaining that much airflow with the ITB's (nothing that can't be achieved with a couple more pounds of boost), you have to factor in what a PITA it will be to tune these things.
I think when Rodney and Dave did it on their Scirocco, they were running the Commander 950. This system does not have the capability to run Alpha-N and Speed Density at the same time, and with a turbo engine you need to run speed density. The problem you would run into is that at low rpms it will be difficult to get good vacuum readings, so the Speed-Density tune will be hard to achieve. What you would need is an EFI that can run the Alpha-N (TPS based) and Speed density at the same time, e.g. Autronic. You would need to start with Alpha-N at low rpms, and then at the point when you get a stable vacuum reading, or when you start getting into boost, you would switch over to Speed Density.
In other words, it sounds like a PITA for little gain. Although, it you are going balls out and have more money than you know what to do with, go for it. I'd love to see it work.


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (vfarren)*

yah the more i look into it it looks like it wont be worth it.. at least not for now.. im gonna concentrate on buildin up a nice motor first


----------



## TAIVW Boosted-Dubs (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*

Everytime I hear somebody say," I want to do it because it's DIFFERENT"...I am thinking...........SHOWCAR! lol.


----------



## Vr6Fidelity (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (TAIVW Boosted-Dubs)*

I explained what the big dogs were doing and why and then he said he wants to be different! Ok but why not ask? 
"what can i do to my car to make it as expensive to construct and tune as possible?"
I know that i have more knowledge and experience with air plumbing, thermo, and CFD than most, but the golden rule still holds: KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Good luck with your project!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (Vr6Fidelity)*

Alright dont get your panties in a Bunch guys.We will have the "true" answer in about 3 weeks when we will have before and after dyno's etc etc.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (Wizard-of-OD)*

thats what i like to hear


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

i would like to see one solid theory for how ITB's increase airflow over a large plenum / velocity stack setup in forced induction. 
....


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_i would like to see one solid theory for how ITB's increase airflow over a large plenum / velocity stack setup in forced induction. 
.... 

all the ITB's will do is increase Throttle response by reducing the vaccuum.Simple science....
Closer throttle Body is to head,Less vaccuum cylinder occupies.Like I Said before ITB's will be no benefit from 2nd gear onwards when the engine is developing boost but expect an economic kit soon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

eh who ****in takes there foot off the gas anyways. i mean honestly


----------



## 2slo4me (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (jok3sta)*

yea ur idea might work even better then the short runners that c&m or some of thoses other guys with short runners reason being yea the pipping on top is huge but the mani runners are stock there for restricted airflow on my car ill be using stock manifold and prolly boost up to 20psi dont forget the air doesnt stay as long in the intake mani if ur boosted as for an n/a car thats a different story however ur idea bring back memories of my doloto kit on my old rx7 13b boy i luved that car everyday at 13000 rpm thoses rotory motors are crazy


----------



## BlownGTT (May 14, 2004)

*Re: Explain to me why ITB' and turbo is a waste? (2slo4me)*

Look into this website, 525 Hp http://www.ame-racing.de/dragr...shtml


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

most short runners are constructed using the first inch or two of the oem manifold. this is not a restriction and in most cases its bigger then the port itself. 
If not, spend 3 dollars on a cartridge roll and port it out, rather then $1000 on some ITB's that have the exact same problem.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_most short runners are constructed using the first inch or two of the oem manifold. this is not a restriction and in most cases its bigger then the port itself. 
If not, spend 3 dollars on a cartridge roll and port it out, rather then *$1000* on some ITB's that have the exact same problem. 

Then I should be getting $2000 for these...
PM for more details... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

hahaha i'm not gonna PM you for details... you couldn't pay me to put that nasty shiot on my car. what a fuggin nightmare.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_hahaha i'm not gonna PM you for details... you couldn't pay me to put that nasty shiot on my car. what a fuggin nightmare. 

<whaddaya think bucky? the public is listening.. 
>very unbiased review, i think based on that we should all abandon ITB's. god damn free enterprise and entrepreneurship. frig them. they dont even have Full Race stamped on the manifold. 
<thanks for that bucky.. over to bill now, for today's weather.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

yes since theres so much on my car stamped full race. lol
On the flip side, refurbishing those, getting rid of all the OEM water lines and such plugging everything and just getting them back to the basics would clean things up a lot.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_yes since theres so much on my car stamped full race. lol
On the flip side, refurbishing those, getting rid of all the *OEM water lines* and such plugging everything and just getting them back to the basics would clean things up a lot. 

your ignorance is bliss
those are fuel lines and below is a picture of the same TB'S,go pay toda $1500us


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

lol you crack me up man. 
thats a goofy fuel setup, and they look like OEM water lines such as on honda, toyota, and many other cars that have water ducted through the throttle body and intake manifold. 
i'm sorry, i must not dig through your junk pile enough to know what every unlabeled, unhooked hose barb on a misc toyota 20v part does.








yup, hell, by the time you refurbish all 4, make 4 velocity stacks custom machined to match, a custom (very) fuel rail, and make them as clean as those toda ones, $1500 is about right. 
MY ignorance? ****, at least i'm not the one creating make work projects meanwhile trying to make my car look OEM, flogging group buys on here without being a banner advertiser, speaking for a company you do not represent, and coming up with endless, worthless projects which will keep your car from ever moving. 
so why don't you hurry up and weld up that 25 valve 5er head while your at it.


----------



## Pagano (Sep 24, 2001)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

Sorry there bud..
But to clean up those ITB's is NOT a major effort - and can probably be done on a lunch break.
Then it's just fabricating an adapter plate and stacks - which I don't think will cost him in the upwards of $1400


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_lol you crack me up man. 
thats a goofy fuel setup, and they look like OEM water lines such as on honda, toyota, and many other cars that have water ducted through the throttle body and intake manifold. 
i'm sorry, i must not dig through your junk pile enough to know what every unlabeled, unhooked hose barb on a misc toyota 20v part does.








yup, hell, by the time you refurbish all 4, make 4 velocity stacks custom machined to match, a custom (very) fuel rail, and make them as clean as those toda ones, $1500 is about right. 
MY ignorance? ****, at least i'm not the one creating make work projects meanwhile trying to make my car look OEM, flogging group buys on here without being a banner advertiser, speaking for a company you do not represent, and coming up with endless, worthless projects which will keep your car from ever moving. 
so why don't you hurry up and weld up that 25 valve 5er head while your at it. 

*sniff sniff*....I smell Hate in the air.
Peter at least I have the ambition to get stuff done http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_lol you crack me up man. 
thats a goofy fuel setup, and they look like OEM water lines such as on honda, toyota, and many other cars that have water ducted through the throttle body and intake manifold. 
i'm sorry, i must not dig through your junk pile enough to know what every unlabeled, unhooked hose barb on a misc toyota 20v part does.








yup, hell, by the time you refurbish all 4, make 4 velocity stacks custom machined to match, a custom (very) fuel rail, and make them as clean as those toda ones, $1500 is about right. 
MY ignorance? ****, at least i'm not the one creating make work projects meanwhile trying to make my car look OEM, flogging group buys on here without being a banner advertiser, speaking for a company you do not represent, and coming up with endless, worthless projects which will keep your car from ever moving. 
so why don't you hurry up and weld up that 25 valve 5er head while your at it. 

Meh dude, its not that bad. I'll be the first to admit that I have had disputes with Wizard here, and on my local VW board, but I can see how it might very well work. I grabbed my set today and found out a lot. The spacing on the factory toyota manifold is identical to the VW 16v one, and if you modify a lower 16v manifold to accept the TBs, then you can use a 1.8T fuel rail and just get tabs welded to the manifold to secure it. Its really not rocket science once you have the TB made up. The hard lines are also vacuum routing, which is probably the best way to do it, since it works well for Toyota. 
I'm gonna give it a try soon, since I have some spare time







.


_Modified by B4S at 8:11 PM 1-9-2005_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
Its really not rocket science once you have the TB made up.

Its BAH SCIENCE! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

its not rocket science, but it is *pointless* science
as for you having ambition to get things done wizza, wait wait... i do believe... um yes, my car is a helluva lot closer to done then yours is and i haven't even been working on it for 2 years. 

It costs ~ 100 per throttle to have a throttle body bored, cleaned and refurbished. x 4
4 custom machined velocity stacks (you could make them cheaper) $$$$$
custom cnc fuel rail OR the actual toda piece... Then weld up a plenum around it all and build an adaptor plate... whichever way you cut it, it will not be cheap. 
which brings us back to the fact that it won't make any more power anyways, so who cares? unless your building a show car then have at it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 9:29 PM 1-9-2005_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
as for you having ambition to get things done wizza, wait wait... i do believe... um yes, my car is a helluva lot closer to done then yours is and i haven't even been working on it for 2 years. 


You have no Idea how close or far my project is so quit while your ahead.
I am not even going to Argue with you Peter....your argument is petty,childish and low.Its amazing how some people decide to use personal attacks to get there message across....meh,typical
.ITB's work and I allready stated where and what they will work @.
*1*.They reduce enigne vaccuum
*2*.The Increase Throttle Response
*3*.HOWEVER They will not make a difference once boost has started to be produced,i.e.Typically once 2nd gear is selected ITB's will not help you.....
This is a setup from HONDA TECH(







).Why dont you ask him if he would loose power if he went Single Plenum.Anyways here we go:


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

Issam i only said that because you gave me that bull**** line about "Peter at least I have the ambition to get stuff done" 
silly really when you know the state of my project. 
anyways
if you want to get honda








832 whp (gasoline not alchy), excellent throttle responce, under $300. Plane jane, single plenum... no "make a project out of it" bull****. 
so like i said if a single plenum can deliever excelent throttle responce, and more power then you would ever need.... why bother, unless your building a show car.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
832 whp (gasoline not alchy), excellent throttle responce, under $300. Plane jane, single plenum... no "make a project out of it" bull****. 
so like i said if a single plenum can deliever excelent throttle responce, and more power then you would ever need.... why bother, unless your building a show car. 

so your saying 832Whp is not possible with ITB's?
and my comment about ambition was not geared towards your porject car.You on the other hand like to relate my personal life all over the tex....not that I care.It just doesnt look too well for you.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

lol sorry i'm too busy going to school to get my M.E. degree to whore myself out trying to sell somebody else's product for a free unit. 

i said why bother, not that it wouldn't work. english 2010 is your friend. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 5:12 AM 1-10-2005_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_lol sorry i'm too busy going to school to get my M.E. degree to whore myself out trying to sell somebody else's product for a free unit. 
i said why bother, not that it wouldn't work. english 2010 is your friend. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


So why the B.S.








The topic is ITB's + Turbo = Waste
not making silly remarks.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

"your ignorance is bliss"


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_"your ignorance is bliss" 
'
You = Honda Guru
Me = Toyota Guru
ITB's = Toyota...see the problem?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Pagano)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pagano* »_Sorry there bud..
But to clean up those ITB's is NOT a major effort - and can probably be done on a lunch break.
Then it's just fabricating an adapter plate and stacks - which I don't think will cost him in the upwards of $1400 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...eat your heart out Peter...


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

i see four red spray painted, junkyard ITB's that have been sandblasted. Thats a far strecth from the toda units you posted. 
sorry, still wouldn't let that mess near my car. Have fun with the throttle linkage. 
f'in waste of time but hey your car is a show car anyways have fun with it. might as well get em chromed that would be blingin yo


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_i see four red spray painted, junkyard ITB's that have been sandblasted. Thats a far strecth from the toda units you posted. 


And prey tell how are they are far fetch from the Toda Units when they are Toda units.These are not junkyard ITB's.They are pulled off good working enigne that have thrown a conrod.
I can call your engine a Junkyard engine as it wasnt brand new from VAG themselves but second hand from Vortex members.
Personally i think your loosing this argument....so you can blow that junkyard talk out of the window.
FACT they came off dirty engines.
*FACT *: This Cleans off the Dirt








*FACT* : This bring them back to New:








*FACT* : This is what enables them to look like whats above:


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

thats a far cry from a professional rebuild. You found 15 toyota motors that ALL threw a conrod? g'damn son where do you have these skills


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_thats a far cry from a professional rebuild. You found 15 toyota motors that ALL threw a conrod? g'damn son where do you have these skills

...sigh
And I suppose you couldve done a better job.
You know what really annoys me about you is that If you dont make it or market it or whatever then its garbage.
Keep your pettyness for another thread...keep it out of this one.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

i would have sent them in and had them actually refurbished... not doctored them up and sold used parts like they are new. 
u know what i don't think i will stay out of this thread its pretty comfy here. 
there are lots of things i don't make or market that i think are great. Just happens to be that your junkyard parts are not included in that group. 


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 5:52 AM 1-11-2005_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_i would have sent them in and had them actually refurbished... not doctored them up and sold used parts like they are new. 
u know what i don't think i will stay out of this thread its pretty comfy here. 
there are lots of things i don't make or market that i think are great. Just happens to be that your junkyard parts are not included in that group. 


SO you think you yourself are competant enough to Refurbish piece of metal and noone else is?
I played with grease since I was 8...not chilling on the block smoking a joint.
There was no indication in this thread of me marketing a product so before you dub this off and some punny group buy then get your facts correct.I turned a "junkyard piece of garbage" into what you see above on my own task.
What I think annoys you is the fact that you cant raise a good argument as to why ITB's are bad for FI other than the fact that 
"skylines use them...so they must be cool"


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_SO you think you yourself are competant enough to Refurbish piece of metal and noone else is?
I played with grease since I was 8...not chilling on the block smoking a joint.
There was no indication in this thread of me marketing a product so before you dub this off and some punny group buy then get your facts correct.I turned a "junkyard piece of garbage" into what you see above on my own task.
What I think annoys you is the fact that you cant raise a good argument as to why ITB's are bad for FI other than the fact that 
"skylines use them...so they must be cool"


you REALLY need to go to that english class. 
taken from your own qoute: "i would have sent them in and had them actually refurbished..." 
They are not bad for FI, but they do not provide any advantages either. They are simply an added complication. Sure, they do sharpen throttle responce a bit, but if you wanted throttle responce you wouldn't be building a low compression, big turbo beast. They do not help spool. They do not help top end power. They do not help ANYTHING.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
They are simply an added complication. Sure, *they do sharpen throttle responce *










_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
but if you wanted throttle responce you wouldn't be building a low compression, big turbo beast. They do not help spool. They do not help top end power. *They do not help ANYTHING*. 








(contradicting yourself again....)
And I suppose you have the proof to support this claim since one of your Honda Buddies did it before.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

_*Engine*_ : Toyota 3S-GTE
_*Intake*_ : Toyota 4A-GE 20V "junkyard" 45mm Throttle Bodies.
_*Boost*_ : LOW (20Psi)
HIGH - Blew the diff out before they had a chance to dyno it.
_*Power Made*_ : *480 WHP @ 20Psi*
Now you go and tell this guy in Japan that with a Single Plenum he will make More Power.He will laugh @ you in your face.








If you have ITB's Use em....


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

thats kinda crappy power for 20psi especially considering what went into it. 
PS, usually, when you try to prove something wrong, you should get examples that make MORE power then the other setup, not less.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1704775 http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 6:42 AM 1-11-2005_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_thats kinda crappy power for 20psi especially considering what went into it. 
PS, usually, when you try to prove something wrong, you should get examples that make MORE power then the other setup, not less.

My Apologies
I guess putting down a mid 10 for 480Whp is too slow.
Now If i can just find that 1200Hp TOp Secret 3SGTE on 50mm ITB's

_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1704775 

...sigh
*Honda Civic*
B16 Turbo I assume
91 octane, 14psi, 
GT40S turbo, 9:1 C/R
4" downpipe and exhaust, 
precision 750hp IC. 
It makes *510* Whp @ *9500* RPM's and *285* ft/lbs of Torque
It makes 440 Whp @ 8000 RPM's and the same give or take 285 ft/lbs of Torque
*3S-GTE now*
*@ 8000 *MOFO RPM's that basterd is making *480whp* and *500 ft/lbs* of Torque.Thats Twice the amount of torque your 4" Honda putting down...
If ITB's were so obsolete,men In Japan would have classifieds into Natural Aspiration and would have used single TB's for Turbo applications.
I realise you and your friends make these insane power figures but @ what RPM's
832 Whp
700whp
1000whp
I assure there are all @ 9500+ RPM's.I took the liberaty of cross referencing this Honda Dyno Plot with Javad Shadzi's 80 TQ.And it clearly shows that the Honda start making there power after VTEC kicks in.No big secret...rev the piss out of a VW engine and you will make that power.
I think this topic is officially dead.
You make and sell single Plenum manifolds so anything outside of what you sell will not work because you and your Honda buddies know the best for the performance world.(dont mind aircooled VW's were dropping times way before Honda knew how to spell there name).
I know that ITB's will help in an FI application because it has been proven time and time again.ITB's are available to me so I will use them.
As said before...ITB's should be the last modification you make as bang for buck,they are the most expensive part you could buy that will yield the least amount of gained power.
On Closing what I think is sad is that I have supported your welding and your work but because this one time I disagree with you,you decide to go all anal and hang out all the dirty laundry in the world from my intelligence to my project progress to my junkyard itb's.
Your behaviour is simply immature....


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

lol
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i'm done. buy your itb's


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_lol
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i'm done. buy your itb's

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

fwiw its pretty much impossible to have a 4cyl 2 liter that makes 480 hp and 500 ft/lbs
do the math. 
single plenum. nitromethane + turbo + nitrous = 4000hp 
















and thats a norwood car so you KNOW there was $ in the budget for itb's if there was any advantage.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_fwiw its pretty much impossible to have a 4cyl 2 liter that makes 480 hp and 500 ft/lbs


Ok your right...guess the guy who owns the car was lieing.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
p.s. I said it was a 3S-GTE,never said it was a 2 liter
p.s.s. you can have any HP and Torque Combination you want.







.Torque being higher than the HP is nothing new to Diesels.You will learn that next year when you play around with engine cell's


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

dood, if you had 500 ft/lbs at anything over like 3000 rpms you would have more then 480 peak hp. 
if you made it at really low rpms, your turbo would have to be so small that you would never make 500 ft/lbs in the first place. especially at only 20 psi. 
once again, you dissapoint me for someone who is supposedly a mechanical engineering major. 
you should call up bob norwood and let him know that he doesn't know what he's doing and he should be running some junkyard itb's. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
once again, you dissapoint me for someone who is supposedly a mechanical engineering major. 


ok


----------



## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*








this thread go lame


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (jok3sta)*

Meh, I got mine from Wiz and I am happy with them http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif. I had not planned on using them on my current car, more as a side project over the next little while...but after all this hubbub, I think I will give it a go







.
P.S: Mine came with the throttle linkage, and anybody can mod a cable end to fit







. I think it will be cool to just see something different, more power or not. Its not a hard job from what I have seen by playing with my set.


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_dood, if you had 500 ft/lbs at anything over like 3000 rpms you would have more then 480 peak hp. 
if you made it at really low rpms, your turbo would have to be so small that you would never make 500 ft/lbs in the first place. especially at only 20 psi. 
once again, you dissapoint me for someone who is supposedly a mechanical engineering major. 
you should call up bob norwood and let him know that he doesn't know what he's doing and he should be running some junkyard itb's. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


best thread ever, wizzzzaaaaaaaaaa

Petey dont waste your time


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (Pagano)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pagano* »_Sorry there bud..
But to clean up those ITB's is NOT a major effort - and can probably be done on a lunch break.
Then it's just fabricating an adapter plate and stacks - which I don't think will cost him in the upwards of $1400 


Sure thing bud. I need the extra throttle response when i'm making a drag car because i'm not spooling on the line







. Those would look sik if they were chromed out, just enough to complete the show car image, maybe wrap a neon tube around it. Just imagine the shine, now thats hot.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_
best thread ever, wizzzzaaaaaaaaaa

Petey dont waste your time









dont waste what time?So everytime Peter is loosing a debate your going to come and rescue him?
What you think I cant link this to all my friends too?
Debate was are ITB's + Turbo a waste...
He says Yes because he makes Single Plenum's for people
I Say No.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

i haven't ever sold a single plenum intake manifold. 
but you can keep thinking that if you like. Yes, its all because i'm pissed your having somebody else make them. (even though i've told you numorous times i wouldn't do it anyways), and yes i'm in competition thats why 
just keep telling yourself that. 
didn't it occur to you that i just do not like ITB's on turbo engines?


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
dont waste what time?So everytime Peter is loosing a debate your going to come and rescue him?
What you think I cant link this to all my friends too?


Petey didnt link me to this, i was reading the FI forum and it made me laugh. I'm sure you have the ability to link people too.
If I was building a large run of cars like Nissan did I may incorporate them somehow, but for a single car like petes or yours or mine I wouldnt bother. Too much time and hassle, but i'm not one to waste time...
got to go


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_but you can keep thinking that if you like. Yes, its all because i'm pissed your having somebody else make them. (even though i've told you numorous times i wouldn't do it anyways), and yes i'm in competition thats why 

What are You talking about










_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
didn't it occur to you that *i* just *do not like ITB's on turbo engines?* 

Thats your *PERSONAL OPINION*.*You* Dont Like ITB's + Turbo...that *does not* mean they are a *waste*.I dont like Candy...so that must mean according to your logic that Candy is a waste.
*never Let your Personal Opinion affect your Professional Opinion....*

_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_
Petey didnt link me to this, i was reading the FI forum and it made me laugh. I'm sure you have the ability to link people too.
If I was building a large run of cars like Nissan did I may incorporate them somehow, but for a single car like petes or yours or mine I wouldnt bother. Too much time and hassle, but i'm not one to waste time...
got to go

Why would It make you laugh







I didnt think I was posted information to gain points on the giggle scale. 
I am pretty sure somewhere in this post that I said ITB's should be the last modification made to a Turbo charged engine.

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
As said before...ITB's should be the last modification you make as bang for buck,they are the most expensive part you could buy that will yield the least amount of gained power.


Let me break it down for everyone again incase you all missed the point.With ITB's there arnt any Substational gains to be had when compared to cost involved ,but they will definately increase off boost throttle response.
Say you spend $1500US on ITB's to gain 2 Hp,some other guy would say well hmmm I just acquired a 1.8T engine with standalone,what else can I do with $1500US.
*1.* ATP Manifold - $200US
*2.* T3/T04E Turbo - $500US
*3.* Intercooler + Piping - $800US
He would have spent his $1500US elsewhere and seen a gain over 100Hp.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

there total and utter uselessness is what sways my personal opionion in that matter. 
I am not a professional therefore i have no professional opionion to be affected. 
"Let me break it down for everyone again incase you all missed the point.With ITB's there arnt any Substational gains to be had when compared to cost involved" 
good job. 
throttle responce is more then adequate with a single plenum and a lightweight flywheel. "snappy" even


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
throttle responce is more then adequate with a *single plenum* and a lightweight flywheel. "snappy" even

Single Plenum Single TB << Quad Throttle Body when it comes to throttle Response.
Increased Throttle Response = Faster time out of the box aka the more you can increase that throttle response the quicker your machine would be.


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_dood, if you had 500 ft/lbs at anything over like 3000 rpms you would have more then 480 peak hp. 


Actually no, Since hp is only a function of tq times rpm it's making it at divided by 5252, so if you're making 500tq at less than 5252, you're hp will be lower than 500, sounds more like a non reving car such as a diesel but you get the point, it's *technically* possible








hth
Paul


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (killa)*

Haha, look who just busted out MATH.








They let engineering students argue more often, #$*&'s funny.


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

need_a_VR6
Vortex Elder
You still awake at this time grandpa?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_need_a_VR6
Vortex Elder
You still awake at this time grandpa?









I was heading out to catch the ole Early Bird at Dennys in a few, then off to bed.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Haha, look who just busted out MATH.








They let engineering students argue more often, #$*&'s funny.

@8000 Rpm's that what its making
480Whp, and about 312 ft-lb 
the 500 ft-lb's was probably @ a peak somewhere before 5252 Rpm's
That 3S-GTE has the potential to rev to 9800 Rpm's just like the 20V 4A-GE's
Thanks Killa for clearing that up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 3:45 PM 1-11-2005_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

500lb-ft @ 8k is well over 700whp... 761.something. What's that about?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_500lb-ft @ 8k is well over 700whp... 761.something. What's that about?

Top Secret made 1200Hp using 50mm Throttle Bodies with similar mods.I have no doubts this engine will make that power.Whatever the case....still back to my point.
ITB's + Turbo does not = Waste.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

I'm not arguing what that car made, just what the one that made 500lbft and only 480whp @ 8k as it's not really possible.
In any event, I need that huge velocity stack for my turbo.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_ I need that huge velocity stack for my turbo.

agreed the power numbers do sound fishy/funny but I still posted them to compare to the Honda.The owner of said vehicle should have a new rear end and a fresh dyno plot sometime this month.
Whatever the case it proved the point that ITB's + Turbo is/was not a waste.
I think I have exhausted this topic to the point of no return.
Was a healthy discussion and we will see the gains soon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

know i know the formula actually i played with it to find where peak torque would have to be in order to get those power numbers after i posted. 
not likely. 
you didn't prove anything wizza 
Need_a_vr6 jason used to run those but found no gains on the dyno. :-/


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
you didn't prove anything wizza 

Wizza > I proved there not a waste
Peter > whats the benefit?
Wizza > they increase Throttle Response.
Peter > so does lightened flywheels,etc whats your point?
Wizza > Lightened Flywheels are not a waste....so neither is ITB's

_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_
Need_a_vr6 jason used to run those but found no gains on the dyno. :-/ 

Your comparing Apples with oranges.
In My comparisons I am comparing ITB's with MultiValve heads which flow high cfm's such as the PG or AEB heads.Not 2V per cylinder VR6's.Agreed that Paul did have an All motor monster that was ported to the max.I dont know what happened but I would prefer to discuss the use of ITb's on either a 16V or 20V motor.(multi-valve heads)
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Sleepy Mk1 (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

They increase throttle response on a NA car cause theres a direct shot to the valve when the throttle is open. On a boosted car you have to enclose them in a plenum so the throttle response will be the same as that same plenum with one big TB. 
Do it if you want, but the reason people are saying its a waste is because you won't make any more power with them and the trade off is they are a pain in the ass to deal with. You can show all the toyota pictures and useless comparissons you want, that fact doesn't change.
If you want to do it to be cool, do it. Don't try to convince anyone that there is a reason other than that you want to, cause there isn't.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Sleepy Mk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sleepy Mk1* »_They increase throttle response on a NA car cause theres a direct shot to the valve when the throttle is open. On a boosted car you have to enclose them in a plenum so the throttle response will be the same as that same plenum with one big TB. 
Do it if you want, but the reason people are saying its a waste is because you won't make any more power with them and the trade off is they are a pain in the ass to deal with. You can show all the toyota pictures and useless comparissons you want, that fact doesn't change.
If you want to do it to be cool, do it. Don't try to convince anyone that there is a reason other than that you want to, cause there isn't.

Whats works for you may not work for me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif And I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.You say there a waste,I say they are not...Simple.
In about 3 weeks or so a well known Vortexer will have a set on his car and he plans on giving before and after dyno plots/ 1/4 mile times and his own personal opinion on them.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 8:04 PM 1-11-2005_


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Why would It make you laugh







I didnt think I was posted information to gain points on the giggle scale. 


I dont know, you just do, you're quite the character and i've heard much about your projects. 2 20V heads welded together would be pretty neet to make a 5cylinder 25v head, good luck with the cams.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_
I dont know, you just do, you're quite the character and i've heard much about your projects. 2 20V heads welded together would be pretty neet to make a 5cylinder 25v head, good luck with the cams.









well I am glad I have made an impact on you...
the 2 20V Heads are being done by VAGSPORT to relplicate the Talgeda Engine since only 1 was ever produced.Thats where the 5 V per cyl technology came from.
a 25V Inline 5 engine does exist for your infromation and it was nowhere near my project. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
well I am glad I have made an impact on you...
the 2 20V Heads are being done by VAGSPORT to relplicate the Talgeda Engine since only 1 was ever produced.Thats where the 5 V per cyl technology came from.
a 25V Inline 5 engine does exist for your infromation and it was nowhere near my project. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I must have been missinformed, welding cast is not an ideal situation on any type of head.
thanks for the clarification wizzza


----------



## Lysholm (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (Sleepy Mk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sleepy Mk1* »_They increase throttle response on a NA car cause theres a direct shot to the valve when the throttle is open. On a boosted car you have to enclose them in a plenum so the throttle response will be the same as that same plenum with one big TB. 


is that your final answer, maybe you should re-read what you wrote


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_
I must have been missinformed, welding cast is not an ideal situation on any type of head.
thanks for the clarification wizzza


Thats true but it was used as a Mold.They had to start somewhere...
Cut 2 20V's into a 3 + 2 Block and weld them together.Take that to the machine shop,Slap some serious $$$ in there hands and out comes a Talgeda mock up.
As for cams there are many people who have the time if you have the money.For some of us Education comes first and money isnt always there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Thats true but it was used as a Mold.They had to start somewhere...
Cut 2 20V's into a 3 + 2 Block and weld them together.Take that to the machine shop,Slap some serious $$$ in there hands and out comes a Talgeda mock up.
As for cams there are many people who have the time if you have the money.For some of us Education comes first and money isnt always there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Education is very important, an agreement withiin this thread has been reached. Mark this day, wizza and rippinralf agree.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_
Education is very important, an agreement withiin this thread has been reached. Mark this day, wizza and rippinralf agree.









err...ok


----------



## Sleepy Mk1 (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: (Lysholm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lysholm* »_is that your final answer, maybe you should re-read what you wrote









Whats the problem?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Your comparing Apples with oranges.
In My comparisons I am comparing ITB's with MultiValve heads which flow high cfm's such as the PG or AEB heads.

For clarification, Peter's example was about a B series Honda motor, which tends to have many valves and good flow. I'm not sure if he even works on cars with a lowly 2valve/cyl.


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

lol... well my shifter kart has reed valves? 








honsetly i'd rock the 2 valve per cylinder too if it would flow the same, that would save me sooooo much time + money lol


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 8:10 PM 1-12-2005_


----------



## Lysholm (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (Sleepy Mk1)*

throttle response improvements from itb's, as you said, are due to the reduced distance traveled from the throttle body to the intake valve, how does encloseing the inlets on itbs change that distance?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_lol... well my shifter kart has reed valves? 








honsetly i'd rock the 2 valve per cylinder too if it would flow the same, that would save me sooooo much time + money lol


well I prefer the best of both worlds. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

there IS no best of both worlds. lol. 
its either you get PWNED and have a simple valvetrain, or, you finance yoru house, and actually have CFM. 
BTW, "faster throttle responce" doesn't make you ANY faster out of the hole because 9/10ths of big big turbo cars are launching from full throttle on a 2 step anyways so, once again, there is 0 difference.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_there IS no best of both worlds. lol. 
its either you get PWNED and have a simple valvetrain, or, you finance yoru house, and actually have CFM. 
BTW, "faster throttle responce" doesn't make you ANY faster out of the hole because 9/10ths of big big turbo cars are launching from full throttle on a 2 step anyways so, once again, there is 0 difference. 

This has been exhausted to the point of no return.Original question has been answered and I have said my piece.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Brutalikx (Mar 25, 2021)

scott66 said:


> hes not the first one to do it on a VW though, it has been doen before......let me see if i can dig it up.


2021 and still waiting.. I've got a A4 with a BFB motor im busy building up. Follow me on Instagram @jays_b6. I'll be doing ITB + exhaust and tune before the end of summer.


----------

