# 8v race engine do over



## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Well I am trying a new setup in my circle track car. I recintly switched to a faster class and a longer 1/2 mile track in my mini stock car. the engine needs to turn 8000+ rpms. My last setup dropped a valve and tore everything apart.
























I couldnt figure out what the problem was. It worked fine on the dyno. It ran good for a couple laps. Then it would begin to break uo around 7000 revs twards the end of the straightaway. The first time I had it on the track after 5 laps I brought it in and found that I hsd lost copression in #3. I removed the head and it seems that the valve seats were burned a little. The machine shop said that it usually caused by a lean condition. I really couldnt see that because the dyno sheet showed a little on the rich side. But I never reved it passed 7200. So we recut the seats and put it back together. I took it back to the track and it blew up to the condition it is in here.
Here is the old dyno sheet with a/f








So I took it all apart and fount the pistons look like they are washed out from running lean. 









So after I get the motor apart and trying fo figure out why this happened, It dawned on me that I moved to a longer track and it requires more fuel to get to the end of the straight. The holley fuel bowl was running out of fuel either because of low fuel pressure or a improper set needle and seat. The pressure was set at 6 psi at idle but it needs to be at 6psi under full load. 
So when I get the new setup to the dyno I will be sure to address these issues.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

old motor specs 
85mm wiesco pistons
scch aba knife crank
light im shaft
scat rods
aba block

aba head
ferrea
42mm intake
35mm exhaust
102mm long
supertech 35mm shim under buckets

bertils camshaft
.568 lift
263* at .050
made 159 whp at 6500 rpms

The new enging needs to make peak hp as close to 8000 as I can get I would be happy with peak power at 7500


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

The new setup is going to have the same botom end but I am changing the whole valve and cam setup.
To try to move the powerband up as High as possible I worked with Lori at web cams to come up with a custom grind to get me where I need to be. I sent them the dyno sheet and the bertils cam to measure it. This is the profile we came up with








It took about 2 weeks to get the cam they had to hard weld matirial to the blank to get the amount of durration for this grind.
The new web cam makes the bertils cam look stock..


_Modified by MK123GTi at 8:11 AM 8-13-2009_


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*









I had the block honed again there were some scratches in the cylinder walls from the pistons.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

On the head I used an german ABA obd1 core
Supertech 7mm stem backcut to 6.5mm 97mm long Solid lifter
42mm Intake
35mm exhaust
TT overszed valve seats
37mm supertech buckets 3.6mm pad
5mm thick valve lash caps
I had to have the lifter holes bored out to run this new larger solid buckets
I didnt run into any problems boring them out with regards to getting into the oil galley it seemed to work fine on the hydro head.




































































_Modified by MK123GTi at 10:01 PM 7-13-2009_


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## Boost_Retard (Oct 10, 2005)

that block of yours is bored to 85mm?
i was looking at going as big as possible with my bore in my new motor i have on the go.. its a race only motor and should end up along the same lines as yours, i just had to ask if you have had any problems with that size of bore and if you would recommend it for another race only motor?..and do you run oil squirters in your block?


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## Boost_Retard (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: (Boost_Retard)*

i would have to get out my caliper but i wonder if its possible to stuff in some slipper skirt 85.5MM pistons intended for air cooled 1600CC motors...22mm wrist pin, and CHEAP, my last set of forged/coated pistons and cylinders were like 300CDN. you can get just pistons from AA for cheap..
hummmmmm.....


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: (Boost_Retard)*

Looking good, looking good.
If that cam isn't enough for you, give Techtonics a call. They made a master off of my .560, 340* cam. Since you have 37mm's now, you can run just about anything. 
What springs are you running? 37mm bores lets you run shaved down crane spring seats and SBC springs with the proper retainer you know








I'm going to need to hit you up for some stock car setup advice for our car.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Well I got the car to the dyno last week. There is definatly a problem in the carb. Its wierd because I didnt change anything on it at all. On the dyno I couldnt get the car to rev past 5000 rpms. The A/F was fine up to 4500 rpms then it kept shooting way lean. I tried going up a size in jets and it would run richer then shoot lean. This is consistant with the damage to the motor previously. I didnt have a wideband at the track. I just assumed from the previous a/f curve (above) that the carb was fine. The power valve is blocked off with #83 jets installed. The float level is good and so is the fuel pressure. After about 2 hours of tinkering on the dyno and it constantly shooting lean I lost compression in #3 and shut it down. I think I burned the seat. Ill have to take the head off and reface the valves and seats. 
Im not a holley expert. I dont know wtf. I plan to take it all apart tomorow to see what is going on.









MKiiroc. I was wondering about your spring setup. Thats sweet v8 springs. I got my springs from LR engineering. Im sot sure what they are but they seem to work fine up to .60 lift. I was asking web about your grind and they sain since my head was un ported that the grind I got was overkill.
Im not too fimillar with dirt setup, but I know getting the corner weights dialed is the best place to start. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I love the 85mm bore. works great for me. 

like my fake fuel pump










_Modified by MK123GTi at 8:44 PM 7-21-2009_


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

I love the fuel pump!








Why not put a wideband in it? The AEM unit is relatively cheap and great to use. 
Which Holley are you running? Just a basic Avenger or a Dominator?


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Please get a video of these beast when you can next. I wanna see that motor scream.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*

Ok I got it all back together again. After talking with the holley tech about the lean issue they said there as a problem with the metering block or in the venturis in the carb getting gummed up because it sat for like 6 months. So I got a new circle track specific 4412 500 cfm racing carb off ebay. And An AEM wide band. So now I just dont have to trust the carb is working fine. If the carb acts up again I can shut it down hopefully before any damage is done. 
I had some issues with the valve job done by clearwater cylinder head. They were suposed to do a 3 angle seats and and back cut the valves. Seems they just gave it a crapy single cut job and passed it off as a racing valve job. After talking to those clowns about what a racing valve job was I decided that they were retards and will never use thier services again. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
I got the valves and seats recut locally and all the cylinders are equal compression now. New carb is installed. and I built an oil breather and catch can. I think she is ready to go now. I have a race this Saturday. I am trying to squeze in a couple dyno pulls on friday before the race. To tune the cam timing and get the jets dead on. 



























































_Modified by MK123GTi at 9:30 AM 8-13-2009_


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK123GTi* »_The new setup is going to have the same botom end but I am changing the whole valve and cam setup.
To try to move the powerband up as High as possible I worked with Lori at web cams to come up with a custom grind to get me where I need to be. I sent them the dyno sheet and the bertils cam to measure it. This is the profile we came up with








It took about 2 weeks to get the cam they had to hard weld matirial to the blank to get the amount of durration for this grind.
The new web cam makes the bertils cam look stock..

_Modified by MK123GTi at 8:11 AM 8-13-2009_

How much did web cams wack you for the custom grind?


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## WanganLLama (Apr 15, 2004)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (Prof315)*

so how'd it go on the dyno???


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (WanganLLama)*

well it seems that the supertech TT valves dont have enough valve tip to keep the lash caps in place. I got it on the dyno and on the first run one of the lash caps popped off and was bouncing around in under the cam follower. It ruined the follower and stuck the valve open. Luckily I cought it in time and it didnt bend the valve or ruin the piston. Looks like I am going back to the origonal ferrea 102mm valves. I never had a problem with the lash caps with that setup. I was switching to the supertech valves to hopely get some more flow with the 6.5mm back cut stems but the wont work with the lash caps.
Ill get it back together next week and try again.
Web cam got me for about 350 for the custom cam


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

Hmmm, that sucks!
That's strange that it couldn't hold it. What if you ground a bit off the bottom portion of the sides to keep it from touching the retainer? (I'm assuming the valve tip isn't long enough) 
I figured with the lash setup right it wouldn't have enough room to be able to go anywhere.
Hope you get it back together soon!


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

How about getting the ferrea stems necked down. Or If you want I can hook u up with a set of 5.5 valve stem valves for your solid lifter head. 5.5 for the length of the valve, not just in the bowl.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (ny_fam)*

I've personally seen a counterflow 8v head with Honda VTEC valves in it. IIRC, 5.5mm stem diameter.
It cost a lot of money to make it happen though...


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (ny_fam)*

I am verry inerested in the 5.5 setup. I was told about it a couple of years ago from Jose at LR engineering who built my origonal race head for me. Who, what when where do I get this setup. Are there special valve guides that are around? What is the valve legnth? A 42 I 35 E at arounf 102 in legnth would be awesome. If you guys know the details. Hook me up I am willing to give it a try.

In the head I have going right now the tt/supertech valves dont have enough tip to run lash caps. I think> either that or the 37mm lifter bores arent bored out enough. they feel verry tight compared to a stock solid lifter head. (Clearwater cylinder head disaster....) The last two trips to the dyno resulted in a valve sticking open after the first run. Not sure if the lash cap popped out and wobbled the follower and stuck it open or the 37mm follower was creating friction in the lifter bore and stuck open and the lash cap fell out. There is evidence supporting both cases. However after a close examination of the cam follower bores I am leaning twards friction in the lifter bores causing the valve sticking as the bore holes look like heat and wear are evident. I just spent 4+ hours machineing new lash caps to a set of ferrea valves with plenty of valve tip to hold the lash cap in place. On monday I m taking the head to another machine sho to try and get the cam followers to move freely. 
The nightmare continues


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...epage
ok this was fun.

building motors is fun. but winning or crashing is more fun 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...epage



_Modified by MK123GTi at 2:39 AM 8-29-2009_


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

PM sent on the 5.5mm stem valves etc..
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## pipper (May 23, 2009)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (ny_fam)*

could you please pm me about the 5.5mm stems. verry intrested


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

I got it all back together. The lifter bores were worn and the cam followers were sticking badly in the bores. I got a cylinder brake hone and honed all of the lifter bores smooth. I put a smaller web cam in this time with only .50 lift and 280 durration at 050. Maybee the ramp was too fast on the other grind causing the buckets to stick to the sides. Not sure. Ill try to get the smaller cam to work first. I put the ferrea 102mm valves back in it. Taking it to the dyno on thursday for a couple pulls. 
I also got the ball rolling on a 5.5 stem setup


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*

Good luck, can't wait to see some numbers!


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK123GTi* »_ Taking it to the dyno on thursday for a couple pulls. 


Anything to report?


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (Andrew Stauffer)*

I got it to the dyno last thursday. I used the smaller web .50 lift 280* cam. It held up and made 144hp at the wheels. I cant seem to get it to make any power over 7000 rpms. 








I took it to the track on saturday and it ran good and made it the whole race with no problems. 20 laps which is 40 straight dyno pulls from 5500 to 8100 it didnt skip a beat. I started in 8th and got up to third but I finished 4th I can kill it on the restarts but my top end power falls off.
The Top 159 whp graph is where I was at with the bertills cam. 
Well I guess without porting the head this is the best I can do. I am swaping out the 4k 3.94 f/d for a 9a 3.67 which acording to the TT rpm calculator will drop 500 of the rpms. With a max rpm of around 7500 I will be much more competive. I am going to put the bertils back in and call it a day. For now. I just picked up a 2.0 16v block. I might try that next.
I ordered the race video I should get it by the weekend.


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## turbomkII (Jul 25, 2005)

*FV-QR*

damn i just read your entire 15 page vrt build... throw this 8v in the garbage and get some updates on the mk3


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (turbomkII)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbomkII* »_damn i just read your entire 15 page vrt build... throw this 8v in the garbage and get some updates on the mk3

Updated with video

Drag racing is a lot of fun. However driving an hour and fourty minuets to only get 2 or 3 passes is not. Personally i like racing against ten people at a time for 25 laps (12 miles) at a time. If you ever get a chance to get in a stock car of any kind, try it. 
I love my drag car. I paln on blowing the dust off it in october. racing in florida is much better in the winter


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (MK123GTi)*

Hey Bruce,
any updates on the engine? were you able to get it back to the track before the end?
Craig


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Shrttrackr)*

Yea I made it to 2 more races before the end of the season. The car is fast and competitive. I have been starting scratch to get a feel for the new car and track. I managed to eek out a 2nd place in the last race only 7 cars showed, however the car is deffinatly coming around. Im ready to do some serious racing next year with these guys. I Think I can get the VW in the winners circle before too long..
Here are a couple videos (not too exiting)
2nd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHcB4Xs792g
I shot this in car vid to record the rpms and the a/f ratio durring the race. I need to go down a size in the jetting its running ritch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupMeBh-Te8
I got some good testing in last year. should be able to give the fords a run for the money this year










_Modified by MK123GTi at 10:36 PM 1-26-2010_


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

When and if you do win, won't your car be subject to closer inspection and/or tear-down? Might your fuel pump be inspected then??? Or has that setup changed since the original post was made?


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (pipper)*

Cool car. Maybe I missed it, but what is the problem with the fuel pump? Does the class require a mechanical pump?

_Quote, originally posted by *pipper* »_could you please pm me about the 5.5mm stems. verry intrested

Same here. PM please.


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (MK123GTi)*

Hey Bruce
your car looks like it really jumps out of the turns nicely. but, if your motor stops making power after 7k, then you should change the gearing....or at least try it...you may not come out as nice but your power throughout the straits will be nice and even.
you are close with those guys...i think you are losing a little in the turns...you should start experimenting with some different setups to free the car up a little. how high is your seat mounted? can you lower it at all?
Also, are you running the power valve in the carb or a block off? i have been told to run the plug instead of the valve. 
Craig


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (Tom A)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tom A* »_Cool car. Maybe I missed it, but what is the problem with the fuel pump? Does the class require a mechanical pump?


See the engine photos posted above.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Shrttrackr)*

I origonaly had the 4k running in third it was spining to 8k. I switched to a 9a tranny and dropped the rpms to 7500, still need to be lower. After tooling with the TT gear calculator for a couple hours with all the vw ratios to the best rpm band, it seems I had it right all along to achieve the same speeds from Im getting from 6k to 7.5k. All I have to do is shift to 4th gear in the 4k tranny. It should run in the 5200 to 6700. It never occurred to me when I first had it on the tack to try 4th gear. Im going to give that a try next time out.
The car is pretty tight. Im going to try some softer front springs, and maybee a stock sway bar in the front instead of the giant nuspeed one. That, and I have not pushed the car to its limits in the corners yet. Im still affraid to scratch it. I am notorious for coming off the corners and sliding into the wall.








I block off the power valve and run 82 jets.
This year im sure ill get more aquainted with the wall and the other drivers. I didnt want to make any enemys being the new guy at the track with the oddball car.


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (MK123GTi)*

Hey Bruce
check out the gear chart i posted a while back. it may be helpful as there are a few R/P's that you may not be aware of.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4318862

Craig


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: 8v race engine do over (MK123GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK123GTi* »_I am verry inerested in the 5.5 setup. I was told about it a couple of years ago from Jose at LR engineering who built my origonal race head for me. Who, what when where do I get this setup. Are there special valve guides that are around? What is the valve legnth? A 42 I 35 E at arounf 102 in legnth would be awesome. If you guys know the details. Hook me up I am willing to give it a try.

Tring to find any info on this on the web and coming up dry. I can't find any Honda Valves large enough. Any more info would be appreciated.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

I looked myself as well for the Honda valves, but since they are DOHC ( SOHC hondas are still multi-valve ), none of them are even Close to being the same size. The only valves I found similar in size were Alfa valves, and they are 9mm!








When I decide to push the extremes of the 8v, I will be going through ny_fam. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Steve-


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: Bertils Cam*

Hey Bruce
What is the number on your bertils cam?
here is mine.... same as yours? i am looking for a comparison sheet of his cams.








Craig


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

they could be the same maybee 605 is the grind, im pretty sure that 33.6 is the base circle maybee 7-2000 is the date of mfg


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

I cant find the sheet but when web measured it for me im pretty sure it was .55 lift and 288 @ 050 durration


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

New dyno numbers HOLY crap

I put the huge web custom cam back in. It is on point. My personal best numbers ever. 172 at the wheels.

My powerband is right where it needs to be between 6 and 7500 rpms 

I gaind 30+ HP at 7500. 

Its on this saturday. Ill either win or put in the wall :banghead:


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## bvillelounge (Jan 28, 2003)

Good numbers, good luck :thumbup:


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

MK123GTi said:


> I gaind 30+ HP at 7500.


 That is some good stuff right there.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*bitter*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbVoKt0CPk


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

thats racing my man, you get some idiots that give you no room. just be careful when your coming down for the block next time. Nice looking track too. I am from up north in RI/MA area and and 4cyl vws used to be real big. and my family has built some of the fastest 1.8s around. The track that we used to race at got rid of the 4cyl divsion about 6-7 years ago. but we would love to give you some insight if you had any questions about your car.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

maniakmax1788 said:


> just be careful when your coming down for the block next time. Nice looking track too. I am from up north in RI/MA area and and 4cyl vws used to be real big. and my family has built some of the fastest 1.8s around. The track that we used to race at got rid of the 4cyl divsion about 6-7 years ago. but we would love to give you some insight if you had any questions about your car.



No blocking here, if someone can pass me I will alwayse give a lane. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLJJ6H6xtDM&feature=player_embedded


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

well put, yeah he shot u right into the wall. what are your rules on radiators? yours blew apart pretty easily. try using bungie cords and get rid of the mounts. believe me it works. you will save your radiators on any impact. it just floats instead of cracking.


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

The radiator is fine. The water is from the bigg puddle I slid through in the grass


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## mrbatavus (Nov 29, 2008)

wow that guys an *******


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## idntnowhtimdoin (Jun 3, 2010)

well power definitely isnt a problem! you seem to own everything but corner entry speed... the car is great! hopefully you get it back together soon :thumbup:


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Edit:* I don't want to impose on the OP's thread. I'm happy to move this information elsewhere if desired.

For the people asking about the 5.5mm valves - Sorry, I wasn't sure if you were directing the questions at me or NYFam.

I have one of the Honda valves sitting in a bag on my desk, I'll try and get some measurements and photos ASAP.

I was told that these valves came from a single-cam D-Series cylinder head. (Likely found in the Civic EX, CX, DX, VX).

In the meantime, here is a picture of the valve keeper of the particular Honda valve used in the custom head that I mentioned:


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## GTIDIRTRACER (Jun 4, 2010)

A little off subject but I race an MK3 GTI on dirt and I was wondering if you run the stock rear hubs? Mine is disk in the back and this year the spindal broke I lost the RR wheel and rolled the car five times. Any help would be great. Also love all the motor info I am the only single cam in my class and I have been looking for more power. Thanks for the help.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

maniakmax1788 said:


> thats racing my man, you get some idiots that give you no room. just be careful when your coming down for the block next time. Nice looking track too. I am from up north in RI/MA area and and 4cyl vws used to be real big. and my family has built some of the fastest 1.8s around. The track that we used to race at got rid of the 4cyl divsion about 6-7 years ago. but we would love to give you some insight if you had any questions about your car.



you must be talking about Seekonk, i used to watch those races when I was a kid. Guy I work with used to run a mk2 16v gti, had some major money in it. Built up 16v from portugal and used to annihilate v8's


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## thechamp1122 (Mar 20, 2008)

*Sell the motor?*

I hate to bring this thread back from the dead, but I'm looking to move from my mustang to a VW, hopefully they're cheaper? I know at least they'll make more power for the same price. You still have this car/motor kicking around? What are you racing now? Would you sell the motor? Or maybe send me all the build specs with part numbers etc... From what I see in your videos and posts, that motor should easily put me towards the front of the field I race with. Thanks for the help!!


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