# Going for 300whp



## Holtzy822 (Oct 20, 2014)

Hey guys, I haven't been very active on this forum... Mainly because I wasn't impressed with the TT when I bought it... Long story short, I have a 2000 180Q and about $3500 to spend. The goal? 300 WHP and on coil overs. 

I know that's kind of a long shot but I think it can be done, the GTS GTTX hybrid turbo kit is 1700 and offers 270whp, KW coil overs are 1100 from TT stuff... That's only 2800 right. Then the issue, installing and exhaust. I can do the coil overs myself and will probably sell the newsfeed lowering springs I have on it now, but can the turbo swap be done without lifting the engine? Also, what ideas do you have for an exhaust, would like to do 3" turbo back if possible.


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

You can most certainly do the turbo swap without pulling the engine and 42 draft designs is a good answer for the exhaust. I have more details in my build thread, but feel free to ask more questions if you aren't sure.


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## dieGone (Sep 25, 2015)

I just bought a 225QC about a week ago and looking for the same goal. I was quite impressed with the TT. But then again my previous car was a 145hp Chevy FWD lol


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

In regards to budget.. make sure you don't skip / forget the little things while you have everything torn down as it can add up quickly. You may want to focus on either all suspension, or all power related mods, rather than skimp out in places just to get both done at the same time.


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## lite1979 (Sep 9, 2005)

I was going to say the same thing regarding both tuning and suspension. A good coilover kit can cost more than half your budget, Holtzy, and you don't want to go cheap on power upgrades. I would do one then the other, preferably suspension first, and replace as many suspension bushings as possible.

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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

Boulderhead said:


> In regards to budget.. make sure you don't skip / forget the little things while you have everything torn down as it can add up quickly. You may want to focus on either all suspension, or all power related mods, rather than skimp out in places just to get both done at the same time.


Very wise suggestion. I solely focused on performance first to get every detail right. Now I am in the process of wrapping up suspension. On coilovers now, R32 rear sway bar, poly bushes, getting cookbots soon, madmax control arms, spacers, etc. etc.

Take your time, and tackle one aspect at a time. I always suggest performance > suspension > aesthetics in that order. If you go backwards you tend to look like a ricer until the very end of your build :laugh:


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## Holtzy822 (Oct 20, 2014)

I already have lowering springs on it so I might just do all the power upgrades first and if I have money left over I'll pick up some new shocks and struts. My main concern is actually 2 things. I like the GTS 270 whp kit but my two questions are, would I need a stage 2 clutch and would I need to go with an FMIC or will the stock side mount do fine for the k04


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Very wise suggestion. I solely focused on performance first to get every detail right. Now I am in the process of wrapping up suspension. On coilovers now, R32 rear sway bar, poly bushes, getting cookbots soon, madmax control arms, spacers, etc. etc.
> 
> Take your time, and tackle one aspect at a time. I always suggest performance > suspension > aesthetics in that order. If you go backwards you tend to look like a ricer until the very end of your build :laugh:


Typically, I go by this evolutionary progression but considering the age of the vehicle the OP may get more return investment from completely refreshing the suspension first. If nothing else, the ride will be much more comfortable/responsive making the drive better until they're able to cover their performance goals. Either way OP, evaluate exactly what you want out of the car and save some of the budget for the all too familiar "Unexpected issues" column. As with any type of vehicle work, there is almost always some type of unexpected item/issue that manifests. Best of luck on whichever path you take! :beer:


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## dieGone (Sep 25, 2015)

There are used coilovers selling for $500 in many forums. It's only expensive if you buy brand new. So your budget can fit if you're a smart shopper. 


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

you'll want to consider rods with the Gttx kit, its not required but your tune will be able to produce much more torque than your rods can handle. 

IT can be tuned to make less torque but where is the fun in that.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

ejg3855 said:


> you'll want to consider rods with the Gttx kit, its not required but your tune will be able to produce much more torque than your rods can handle.
> 
> IT can be tuned to make less torque but where is the fun in that.


Having money from not doing an engine rebuild to go out? :beer:


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## dieGone (Sep 25, 2015)

Yeah don't forget internals. I don't even think the 225 can handle the torque and it has forged rods but I was told they still need to be upgraded.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

if you can't afford to do it right you shouldn't even start. 

Take your budget and double it thats what it will take. 

Fast, Cheap, Reliable. Pick 2.


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## dieGone (Sep 25, 2015)

What do you need to replace aside from rods? Pistons? Anyone has an idea of how much does a mechanic charge for "rebuilding" the engine with those parts if you bring them yourself? Thinking to go BT if it isnt too costly. 


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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

dieGone said:


> What do you need to replace aside from rods? Pistons? Anyone has an idea of how much does a mechanic charge for "rebuilding" the engine with those parts if you bring them yourself? Thinking to go BT if it isnt too costly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Forget BT. Way expensive to do right. Buying used is just buying someone else's headache in my experience.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

$3k would be a complete, properly-done Gonzo kit, especially with supporting stuff and not doing the work yourself. Sure, you don't NEED rods, but building a new engine because the old one blew would cost a hell of a lot more money. Decent used coilovers are only a part of the equation, you'll need at least some camber correction in the rear, and considering the age of our cars I assume you'll need some bushings and possibly bearings, and again unless you have a press you won't get that far with DIY for those parts. You could *probably* get the stuff you'd need for suspension and a turbo kit, but it'd be bare-minimum, some stuff would be used, and the parts would only be sitting in boxes at that point. There is no easy answer, you can save a lot of money by trolling classifieds and eBay but you're trading time, whereas you could do it all quickly but that's spending a lot more money for all new stuff and shop labor costs. Assume there are twice as many parts needed as you think, and assume its at least another $1k for misc parts, work, and labor.


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

Holtzy822 said:


> I already have lowering springs on it so I might just do all the power upgrades first and if I have money left over I'll pick up some new shocks and struts. My main concern is actually 2 things. I like the GTS 270 whp kit but my two questions are, would I need a stage 2 clutch and would I need to go with an FMIC or will the stock side mount do fine for the k04


I am still on OEM clutch and OEM rods.. granted the car hasn't been back on the dyno since I finished up, so I can't tell you exactly how much power its laying down and where the failure points might be. The change in intercooler is debatable as Noah (Deckmandubs) runs side mounts (tyrolsport) on his track focused TT. The upgraded ICs won't make more power, they just keep you from losing power as IAT rises. If you are primarily driving on the street, this may not be as much of a focus as someone who is competing and putting the car through more abuse than can be seen on the highway.

Another way to solve the IAT problem is with water injection, so you have options to explore


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> On coilovers now, R32 rear sway bar, poly bushes, *getting cookbots soon*, madmax control arms, spacers, etc. etc.


You've been hanging out on the TT forum across the pond WAY too much. :laugh:


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## dieGone (Sep 25, 2015)

I'd be willing to go BT if it comes out to less than $5,000 with labor and parts... Any more than that not worth it lol


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

20v master said:


> You've been hanging out on the TT forum across the pond WAY too much. :laugh:


LOL I knowwww brotha . They're so much more active though sadly.

Are you implying cookbots are bad though? I'm referring to the product not the user, they are basically the no longer made defcons.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

It's just an aluminum sleeve. He picked up the market when MPCi dropped out because, as you say, there is demand over there.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

20v master said:


> It's just an aluminum sleeve. He picked up the market when MPCi dropped out because, as you say, there is demand over there.


I know, but as far as I'm aware, now that Steve doesn't make them, there's no distributor here correct? Where else would I get them...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> I know, but as far as I'm aware, now that Steve doesn't make them, there's no distributor here correct? Where else would I get them...


Who's Steve? Mike at MCPi came up with the Defcon sleeve idea. He likley decided to let production phase out because Paul (aka Cookbots) simply cloned the idea and was able to supply it in the UK (where product for this platform still sells) at way less than it can be done from US manufacture. 

Personally, I think the whole metal sleeve with bushings to emulate pre-recall arms is obsolete. Full delrin bushings are what people should be using these days, but I guess lack of knowledge and poor marketing have caused them to not catch on. They improve the directness of the steering tremendously (even over the stiffest defcon setup) with zero discernible penalty to NVH and comfort. I believe Mike was making these and Noah cut a few batch too at some point. It would be worth a try to ask them Gonzy..:beer:


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## TA (Sep 15, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Who's Steve? Mike at MCPi came up with the Defcon sleeve idea. He likley decided to let production phase out because Paul (aka Cookbots) simply cloned the idea and was able to supply it in the UK (where product for this platform still sells) at way less than it can be done from US manufacture.
> 
> Personally, I think the whole metal sleeve with bushings to emulate pre-recall arms is obsolete. Full delrin bushings are what people should be using these days, but I guess lack of knowledge and poor marketing have caused them to not catch on. They improve the directness of the steering tremendously (even over the stiffest defcon setup) with zero discernible penalty to NVH and comfort. I believe Mike was making these and Noah cut a few batch too at some point. It would be worth a try to ask them Gonzy..:beer:


I must not spend enough time on the forums. First I've heard of full delrin bushings for the control arms...

And I just pressed in my Defcons 2 weeks ago


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

TA said:


> I must not spend enough time on the forums. First I've heard of full delrin bushings for the control arms...
> 
> And I just pressed in my Defcons 2 weeks ago


Just got mine in last week too.. but easy enough to get a spare set of arms and see what you like best :thumbup:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Who's Steve? Mike at MCPi came up with the Defcon sleeve idea. He likley decided to let production phase out because Paul (aka Cookbots) simply cloned the idea and was able to supply it in the UK (where product for this platform still sells) at way less than it can be done from US manufacture.
> 
> Personally, I think the whole metal sleeve with bushings to emulate pre-recall arms is obsolete. Full delrin bushings are what people should be using these days, but I guess lack of knowledge and poor marketing have caused them to not catch on. They improve the directness of the steering tremendously (even over the stiffest defcon setup) with zero discernible penalty to NVH and comfort. I believe Mike was making these and Noah cut a few batch too at some point. It would be worth a try to ask them Gonzy..:beer:


Ooops maybe I got the names mixed up lol! They're both so common :facepalm:

Hmm considering nothing has been purchased yet, I'd love some more information on these delrin bushings, I'd say I spend a fair bit of time on this forum too but I've never heard of them?? 

Lastly, what makes these Delrin bushings better from a quantitative analysis? I would imagine the sleeve + smaller poly bush combo would provide more stiffness than an oem sized poly bushing no? Unless there's something else behind these bushings? 
Also cost plays a huge factor in this too, not trying to spend $300 on bushings lol, the cookbots are $100 or so.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Been running mine for many years now. They were the first set that Mike (MCPi) made because I wanted a solution that can pass SCCA Street Prepared rules that does not allow OEM rubber to be replaced with metal (Defcons wouldn't be legal). Back when I fitted them, the car was still daily driven and they totally changed the steering sharpness without any NVH penalties.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Lastly, what makes these Delrin bushings better from a quantitative analysis? I would imagine the sleeve + smaller poly bush combo would provide more stiffness than an oem sized poly bushing no? Unless there's something else behind these bushings?
> Also cost plays a huge factor in this too, not trying to spend $300 on bushings lol, the cookbots are $100 or so.


Polyoxymethylene glycol, made popular and patented by Dupon under the name Delrin is an engineering thermoplastic polymer. Its specific characteristic includes very high stiffness and structural stability, as well as having low friction. The material os used in many applications and is very popular as a bushing replacement where strength and low deflection is needed. Delrin bushing (although still offering some deflection) is closer in properties to a solid metal. 

As for pricing, the beauty of delrin or most polymers is that they are relatively cheap to make. Delrin bushing for this specific location will be cheaper than a metal insert and a set of bushing.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I made my own front arm front bushings from Delrin, though I don't know the exact material because it was some scrap laying around the machine shop. That said, I do have a lot of creaking/groaning, that I can't attribute to anything else in my setup. I"ll take a video and post it later, maybe you can "steer" me right Max, pun intended. :laugh:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Polyoxymethylene glycol, made popular and patented by Dupon under the name Delrin is an engineering thermoplastic polymer. Its specific characteristic includes very high stiffness and structural stability, as well as having low friction. The material os used in many applications and is very popular as a bushing replacement where strength and low deflection is needed. Delrin bushing (although still offering some deflection) is closer in properties to a solid metal.
> 
> As for pricing, the beauty of delrin or most polymers is that they are relatively cheap to make. Delrin bushing for this specific location will be cheaper than a metal insert and a set of bushing.


Oh okay! That is very interesting. Essentially being a metalloid, and more so leaning towards the metals, it would definitely make sense as to why this compound would be considered superior. Can't believe I'm just now finding out about this!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> I made my own front arm front bushings from Delrin, though I don't know the exact material because it was some scrap laying around the machine shop. That said, I do have a lot of creaking/groaning, that I can't attribute to anything else in my setup. I"ll take a video and post it later, maybe you can "steer" me right Max, pun intended. :laugh:


Let's hear the video! Mine have been on mute, but some grease grooves were incorporated in the design for that very purpose. 



Gonzalo1495 said:


> Oh okay! That is very interesting. Essentially being a metalloid, and more so leaning towards the metals, it would definitely make sense as to why this compound would be considered superior. Can't believe I'm just now finding out about this!


Lots and lots to learn about cars young padawan (yoda voice).


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Let's hear the video! Mine have been on mute, but some grease grooves were incorporated in the design for that very purpose.


Great minds and all....I did the same. Linear grooves with a hack saw blade filled with grease on the front and rear face of the bushings. Didn't help.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Great minds and all....I did the same. Linear grooves with a hack saw blade filled with grease on the front and rear face of the bushings. Didn't help.


By front and rear face, do you mean inner (sleeve side) and outer (control arm housing side) surfaces? There should only be grooves on the inner (sleeve side) to allow a bit a slippage without noise and biding. The outer surface you want tight tolerances and high friction with no groves. If you added groves there, the entire bushing will potentially rotate within the control arm's housing and make noise. 

BTW, a few of you have been PM'ing me about where to find these bushings. Here is a link to Noah's:
https://phenixengineering.com/shop/gt1-control-arm-bushings-mk4-r32-mk1-tt/


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> By front and rear face, do you mean inner (sleeve side) and outer (control arm housing side) surfaces? There should only be grooves on the inner (sleeve side) to allow a bit a slippage without noise and biding. The outer surface you want tight tolerances and high friction with no groves. If you added groves there, the entire bushing will potentially rotate within the control arm's housing and make noise.
> 
> BTW, a few of you have been PM'ing me about where to find these bushings. Here is a link to Noah's:
> https://phenixengineering.com/shop/gt1-control-arm-bushings-mk4-r32-mk1-tt/


No, I meant the vertical faces as installed, as in the front and rear of the bushing "faces" as they insert into the subframe. I took a video on the way to work but not sure it captures it accurately. Will try to get another later today.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> No, I meant the vertical faces as installed, as in the front and rear of the bushing "faces" as they insert into the subframe. I took a video on the way to work but not sure it captures it accurately. Will try to get another later today.


Ok, maybe the video will help. 

This is the surface that needs the grooves (allows some slip from the metal sleeve without the associated noise). The outer surface that is in contact with the control arm housing should be tightly pressed and rely on the high friction to stay put.


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## Holtzy822 (Oct 20, 2014)

So I think I've decided to just do a tune and use the rest of the money for a down payment on an airplane. Im thinking about going unitronic stage 1+ any issues I should know about before purchase? Will it over power the stock 180 clutch? Its supposed to be 225hp and 260ft lbs torque.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

There is nothing to worry about if you're decided with Unitronic (although it wouldn't be my first choice nowadays). The cluth will take the stage tune no problem.


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

What kind or airplane can you put up $2500 for down payment?


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Holtzy822 said:


> ...Im thinking about going unitronic stage 1+...


I've been running Unitronic tunes for several years now and the performance has been ok - customer service has been terrible. If I were you, I'd opt for a company that will customize their software to your needs - things change over time so why be handicapped with software that limits hardware choices.


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## Holtzy822 (Oct 20, 2014)

All_Euro said:


> I've been running Unitronic tunes for several years now and the performance has been ok - customer service has been terrible. If I were you, I'd opt for a company that will customize their software to your needs - things change over time so why be handicapped with software that limits hardware choices.


Hm, what would you suggest I go with? I had chose unitronic because of the 225 and 160ft lbs but that's on 93 octane... Which doesn't exist in Arizona... The only other place near me is an APR dealer. If someone could get me up to 225 and 160 on 91 octane Im sold. And a 10% downpayment on a 20k Pitts stunt plane is 2k lol


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## SteveCJr (Aug 3, 2008)

Holtzy822 said:


> Hm, what would you suggest I go with?


http://tunedbygts.com/


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

SteveCJr said:


> http://tunedbygts.com/


:thumbup:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Holtzy822 said:


> Hm, what would you suggest I go with? I had chose unitronic because of the 225 and 160ft lbs but that's on 93 octane... Which doesn't exist in Arizona... The only other place near me is an APR dealer. If someone could get me up to 225 and 160 on 91 octane Im sold. And a 10% downpayment on a 20k Pitts stunt plane is 2k lol


APR is another company that designs their software for specific hardware kits... there's nothing really wrong with that either but it doesn't allow you much flexibility. Personally, I'd go with a company that does custom tunes and offers a remote tuning service.

Gonzo would be my first choice and next in line would be United Motorsport...


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## Holtzy822 (Oct 20, 2014)

SteveCJr said:


> http://tunedbygts.com/


 hm... I like the stage 2 but what does it mean by k03s upgrade? Thats what bumps it to 235 so thats the one I'm really interested in. Also, doesnt the 180TT already have a k03s turbo and 317cc injectors? I'm not worried about the FPR because they're easy to source but I'm really not interested in putting in a new intercooler and doing a turbo back exhaust at the moment.


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## killjoy593 (Apr 27, 2015)

Holtzy822 said:


> hm... I like the stage 2 but what does it mean by k03s upgrade? Thats what bumps it to 235 so thats the one I'm really interested in. Also, doesnt the 180TT already have a k03s turbo and 317cc injectors? I'm not worried about the FPR because they're easy to source but I'm really not interested in putting in a new intercooler and doing a turbo back exhaust at the moment.


On early generations of the 1.8t in the TT they had the k03 turbo. After around 2001.5 they revised the turbo and developed the k03s on the 180hp versions of the TT. I'd assume that's what they mean by k03s upgrade. Gonzo stage 1+ after the supporting mod he requires is pretty good for a stock TT.


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## Holtzy822 (Oct 20, 2014)

killjoy593 said:


> On early generations of the 1.8t in the TT they had the k03 turbo. After around 2001.5 they revised the turbo and developed the k03s on the 180hp versions of the TT. I'd assume that's what they mean by k03s upgrade. Gonzo stage 1+ after the supporting mod he requires is pretty good for a stock TT.


Stage 1+? All they have is the stage 1 and stage 2 and 2 with the k03s upgrade.


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## kkbturbo (Aug 6, 2013)

If your on a budget, I've heard Raceland coil overs get you there cheap. 

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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

kkbturbo said:


> If your on a budget, I've heard Raceland coil overs get you there cheap.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Speaking frome experience, they'll also rattle all of your fillings out every time you run over a pebble. 

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## killjoy593 (Apr 27, 2015)

Holtzy822 said:


> Stage 1+? All they have is the stage 1 and stage 2 and 2 with the k03s upgrade.


Sorry about that, I meant the Gonzo stage 2. I was looking at the unitonic stage 1+ and gonzo stage 2 at the same time, must've gotten them mixed up when I was typing.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

hunTTsvegas said:


> Speaking frome experience, they'll also rattle all of your fillings out every time you run over a pebble.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


Speaking from experience, I've had them on the car for over a month now, You either went full stance nation or got some pretty bad shocks, they are very comfortable still, the ride quality where I have them at is enjoyable. You WILL feel the bumps, but it's not going to "rattle" anything at least not on my TT


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Speaking from experience, I've had them on the car for over a month now, You either went full stance nation or got some pretty bad shocks, they are very comfortable still, the ride quality where I have them at is enjoyable. You WILL feel the bumps, but it's not going to "rattle" anything at least not on my TT


Had them on my WRX completely extended and it was worse than having no shocks at all. No amount of adjustment I made mattered. They're a cheap coil and I got what I paid for. If they're working for you, that's fantastic but I'll never own them again.

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