# Anyone seen the new refrigeration-based intercooler?



## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

What's up guys?

So, I saw a car today which the owner claimed was using an 134a air conditioned intercooler. The guy was kind of a douche because he wouldn't let me photograph the unit, but it DEFINITELY looked like a well thought out idea. Being a pessimist non-believer buy nature, I pushed him for some facts. The speaking points he gave led me to believe that he'd used a water-to-air exchanger-type intercooler, but found that the new one was capable of deeper cooling without a cost to the drivetrain power. In fact, the power consumption of the unit is said to be less than 3 amps total.

Now, my questions are these:

A.) Is it legitimately possible that a 12v electrically-driven heat exchanger type of refrigeration unit make a real-world drop in intake temperature without killing off your battery in a single day?

B.) Can 134a refrigerant actually provide a useful cooling effect without an externally mounted radiator?

C.) Does anyone else out there think that this might be the future of intercooling units?


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

munkittrick said:


> What's up guys?
> 
> So, I saw a car today which the owner claimed was using an 134a air conditioned intercooler. The guy was kind of a douche because he wouldn't let me photograph the unit, but it DEFINITELY looked like a well thought out idea. Being a pessimist non-believer buy nature, I pushed him for some facts. The speaking points he gave led me to believe that he'd used a water-to-air exchanger-type intercooler, but found that the new one was capable of deeper cooling without a cost to the drivetrain power. In fact, the power consumption of the unit is said to be less than 3 amps total.
> 
> ...


i dont see why not, i just think unless you use your already in the car ac, im not sure there is room to add all that is needed. now if you use your stock ac then yes im sure it is possible.


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

I was impressed with the idea that he didn't require an additional compressor for the cooling unit. Since the resistance is what robs you of power, the idea that the cooling can be compressed via an electronic means seems like a win/win. The only thing I can find online anywhere refers to 12v heat-exchanging cooling units. They don't claim astronomical temperature drops, so I'm thinking that it has to be a very efficient unit to be of use. He's going to the Fixx Fest show next week and I heard him talk about the "introduction" of a product....so who knows, maybe he made some kind of breakthrough.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

Ill be at fixx this weekend... Ill be looking out for this... What color body model was it... It sounds interesting enough to want to see for myself...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Electricity still takes power, it just has to come through the alt instead of direct. There's no beating physics. You would have to make more power via charge cooling than is getting eaten up by the compressor and associated losses. I know Ford was looking to do this or did it on the next gen Cobras, but haven't kept up.


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## DWI_gti (Jan 12, 2004)

http://www.speedmaxperformance.com/Intercoolers.php

similar to this set up i believe.


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

Boost112 said:


> Ill be at fixx this weekend... Ill be looking out for this... What color body model was it... It sounds interesting enough to want to see for myself...



Platinum Grey 2004.5 GLI. The guy looks like a freaking pirate...tats down both arms and a head bandanna most times.




need_a_VR6 said:


> Electricity still takes power, it just has to come through the alt instead of direct. There's no beating physics. You would have to make more power via charge cooling than is getting eaten up by the compressor and associated losses. I know Ford was looking to do this or did it on the next gen Cobras, but haven't kept up.



Yes, but your alternator is generating power regardless of the usage, so you would incur no more resistance or loss of power. At worst, you'd experience a 50% rise in the duty cycle of the alternator...that's not bad at all. Furthermore, given that electronics have made so many advancements, the efficiency of an electrical system seems more plausible now. I'm not saying I am sold on the idea, but it's got to be something to consider.




DWI_gti said:


> http://www.speedmaxperformance.com/Intercoolers.php
> 
> similar to this set up i believe.


 I'm 99% sure that his was in a straight tubular shape. There were NO exposed fins. It looked like a 5" diameter piece of aluminum pipe with a 134a high-pressure fitting and a couple of aircraft aluminum fittings tapped into some stainless lines. I REALLY wish the guy wasn't so damned flighty. I'm betting that anyone with a nose for cooler theorum could figure it out pretty quick.

One more note. One of the guys who backed his claims up is a guy known to have built some of the sickest import tuners in our area. Without his word an stamp of approval, I'd be a LOT less interested. Anyway, I'll keep plugging away until the weekend.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

munkittrick said:


> Yes, but your alternator is generating power regardless of the usage...


Not quite, mechanical losses are always there from the moving components but put more electrical load on it and it will cause more drag. Your electrical system only draws what it needs, throw a huge dc motor load on there, and the power will have to come from somewhere!


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Not quite, mechanical losses are always there from the moving components but put more electrical load on it and it will cause more drag. Your electrical system only draws what it needs, throw a huge dc motor load on there, and the power will have to come from somewhere!


I understand the mechanical losses, but even a reasonably efficient cooler should be able to offset a slight drop in consumption. Do you think it's possible that he may have used some manner of capacitor bank or secondary charged source?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Like the battery? Probably


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Like the battery? Probably


 No, an additional source of power...beyond the cars factory features. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this idea sounds like a new level of charging. I'm just trying to sort the possibilities. If it's actually cooling the way this guy says it does, it may very well be the future of intercooling.


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

Get a thermo book and read it.


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

enginenerd said:


> Get a thermo book and read it.


I'm not interested in thermodynamics. I'm interested in this guy's intercooler. I'm a dreamer, but progress is progress is progress. When I see him this weekend, I'll press him a bit to get some specifics. Until then, it's just an idea that _MIGHT_ work.


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

It's bull....

You(he) say it's only taking 3 amps max, that gives you around 40W of power, even with an 100% efficient electric motor this will produce 200W of cooling power, with a COP of 5(which is large, but doable at higher temps).

200W of cooling power will not drop 40lbl(around 400 horsepower) of compressed air temp much, if I find the time I’ll do the calculation how much cooling power is needed to have a significant air temp drop.


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

MarcoVR6SC said:


> It's bull....
> 
> You(he) say it's only taking 3 amps max, that gives you around 40W of power, even with an 100% efficient electric motor this will produce 200W of cooling power, with a COP of 5(which is large, but doable at higher temps).
> 
> 200W of cooling power will not drop 40lbl(around 400 horsepower) of compressed air temp much, if I find the time I’ll do the calculation how much cooling power is needed to have a significant air temp drop.



Well, I saw it with my own eyes...so it does exist. *I* am not saying anything about the power draw, but he claims 3 amps is the draw. I have a mini fridge for my travel trailer and it only draws 5 amps, so it doesn't sound astronomically out of whack. That fridge pumps out ice almost as fast as you can use it. Technically, there is loss with any kind of cooling, but I think that the goal is pushing the point of diminishing returns farther.

Like I said, I just want to get the idea of how it would be possible. If he ends up being full-of-sh!t...no harm done, but if he has done this to a successfully efficient degree...it sounds like a new option. Option are what make cars fun.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think a VR6 smog pump pulls more then 3A...


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I think a VR6 smog pump pulls more then 3A...


Nah, it measured at less than a single amp with very little fluctuation during its duty cycle.


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

Holy sh!t! This is what he has running, except his is run to the compressor directly. After reading over this info, I get the idea completely. Not only does the 134a injection cool the charge, but it also works like a traditional heat-exchanger, water-to-air cooler. THAT'S a much more plausible scenario.

I've actually contacted the rep to see if I can get one cut specifically for my car. I'll let you guys know in a week once it gets here.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

munkittrick said:


> Holy sh!t! This is what he has running, except his is run to the compressor directly. After reading over this info, I get the idea completely. Not only does the 134a injection cool the charge, but it also works like a traditional heat-exchanger, water-to-air cooler. THAT'S a much more plausible scenario.
> 
> I've actually contacted the rep to see if I can get one cut specifically for my car. I'll let you guys know in a week once it gets here.


...i have seen those before but no one with any experience has ever posted... neat idea and i could seeing working but not with the coolant coming from the radiator... good luck...


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

>



1) problem I see is the width of the fins. With only the outside diameter being cooled (even if the inside diameter was also), the effective heat transfer from the outside of the fins will decrease as the fin reaches toward the center. 

So, the air toward the outer diameter will be cooled much more than the inner air.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

its not referring to engine coolant from your radiator, it would come from a seperate heat exchanger like an air/water intercooler. These pipes just look to be a newer more effecient air/water core from the looks of it, based on the pwr barrel cores.


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## munkittrick (Aug 27, 2006)

Yareka said:


> its not referring to engine coolant from your radiator, it would come from a seperate heat exchanger like an air/water intercooler. These pipes just look to be a newer more effecient air/water core from the looks of it, based on the pwr barrel cores.


Actually, no. These are tapping into your 134a air conditioning compressor line and using the coolant pressure to lower the temperature dramatically in one fell swoop. THAT'S the part I think is so far beyond other options out there. These things are literally supposed to refrigerate the internal fins of the tubes and as air is forced through, it's cooled simply by passing over the cooled internal fins.

Like I said, I'll see this guy again this weekend and get a far better idea of the ability of the system.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

I was referring to the guy above suggesting that g12 be used in the collar.

from the lindsey page


> This void can be filled with water, glycol, gasses or other substances to "flush" the heat away from the inner tube.


This product is not specific to r134, you could use any gas or liquid to fill the collars with and get lower temps. If you look at the picture at the bottom of the page of the 944 setup, those are water fittings. I'm not doubting the setup that you saw on the other car, but this is just the core that carries the refrigerant. 

The debate is still whether the electrical draw on the compressor is worth the cooling gained :thumbup:


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

munkittrick said:


> I have a mini fridge for my travel trailer and it only draws 5 amps, so it doesn't sound astronomically out of whack. That fridge pumps out ice almost as fast as you can use it. Technically, there is loss with any kind of cooling, but I think that the goal is pushing the point of diminishing returns farther.


Yeah, but that is with an isolated box, and closed from the outside air. How much ice will it make when you open up the cover and blow 40 lb/min of hot air into it?



munkittrick said:


> Holy sh!t! This is what he has running, except his is run to the compressor directly. After reading over this info, I get the idea completely. Not only does the 134a injection cool the charge, but it also works like a traditional heat-exchanger, water-to-air cooler. THAT'S a much more plausible scenario.
> 
> I've actually contacted the rep to see if I can get one cut specifically for my car. I'll let you guys know in a week once it gets here.


This style of heat exchangers are used in the rally sport, but mainly to cool oil, thus liquid to liquid coolers.

If you want to cool air(a lot of it, fast) then you can’t beat physics, you need surface, even if you use refrigerant to cool it, you still need enough surface. Also looking at those heat exchangers they don’t look refrigerant fluid tight, it will leak the refrigerant.

Just wait and see…


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i can't find that thread already "debating" ac evaporator ideas
btus were provided there


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## freakyGTI (Oct 10, 2007)

no balls...










could be the answer 

-320F


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