# Curious about the TT's AWD system



## 100500 (Feb 6, 2007)

According to Audi's TT microsite:
"The Audi TT 3.2 Quattro is the only sports coupe in its class with permanent all-wheel-drive."
I had been under the impression that the TT used a system that only utilized the rear wheels when slippage was detected on the front wheels. I think it was called Haldex? As opposed to a "true" quattro as in other Audi cars?
Or is this another change between the Mk.1 and Mk.2 models?


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## agenTT (May 8, 2004)

I believe the MK II is using the haldex system.


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## AutobahnTT (Oct 8, 2006)

*Re: (agenTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *agenTT* »_I believe the MK II is using the haldex system.

True, but the second generation. haldex makes a sport controller that engages the rear wheels under throttle, not just slip. Why Audi thinks they have to make the Quattro system underperform is beyond me? Just shows who Audi is building the cars for average drivers, not enthusiasts. Save your money and buy the S5 when it comes out. At least then you won't have to modify it for it to perform as it should. Looks way better too!


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

The haldex unit on the MK1 was not considered "permanent awd"
-The sport controller did not do anything to change this.
I am curious why they are marketing this new system as "permanent awd"
(hope it's not "fluff")


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: (ylwghost)*

Permanent as in not part time...part time (at least the old definition) is a system that you as the driver manually engage by a lever inside or getting out and locking a transfer case (think like the old 4WD systems in pickup trucks...) You aren't controlling the change from FWD to AWD like you would in a part time system...( although I feel some of you would argue that...







)
So even the MKI TT Haldex system is permanent AWD.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (gizmopop)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gizmopop* »_( although I feel some of you would argue that...







)
So even the MKI TT Haldex system is permanent AWD.









Now wasn't that obvious:
-I would not consider my old TJ to be a part-time 4x4
Part-time (AKA Real-time) awd is generally known as "only awd when needed"
-Seemed to me that VAG had used the term "permanent" to leverage the advantage that their own torsen system has: Calling the old Haldex system "permanent" would blur the key advantages of each system. (unless the new Haldex system stays permanently engaged)


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

*Re: (ylwghost)*

Huge gray area with Audi's marketing statements. From what I understand (and others have stated this) permanent AWD simply means that it is seamless transfer ... additionally, on the MK1, the rears are under a ~5% load by default and transfer on front slippage as well as torque.
The blue/sport controller upgrade preloads the haldex for quicker and more seamless transfer based on torque and slip.
My guess is that the new TT uses a somewhat blue controller variant and hence is sportier.
Pal


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (pal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pal* »_
My guess is that the new TT uses a somewhat blue controller variant and hence is sportier.


And perhaps it stays engaged under braking like their competition controller.
-just that they have been very quiet about the details (most other awd cars on the market have detailed charts on how their system works). 
One thing is certain.. the system has been revised (and this is good for the TT).
-even journalists (EVO) have stated specs almost certianly mistaken as in-line with Audi's torsen system (i.e. 40:60 split).
-and the MKV R32 only mentions that at least 75% of the torque may be sent to the rear.
I am curious what has been revised on this system. (and has it been confirmed that it is actually a Haldex unit?







)


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## darTTh audi (Feb 3, 2007)

*Re: (ylwghost)*

I thought I had read that the default setting for the the MK2 is an 85/15 front/rear split with the ability to send 100% to either.


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## AutobahnTT (Oct 8, 2006)

*Re: (ylwghost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ylwghost* »_

And perhaps it stays engaged under braking like their competition controller.
-just that they have been very quiet about the details (most other awd cars on the market have detailed charts on how their system works). 
One thing is certain.. the system has been revised (and this is good for the TT).
-even journalists (EVO) have stated specs almost certianly mistaken as in-line with Audi's torsen system (i.e. 40:60 split).
-and the MKV R32 only mentions that at least 75% of the torque may be sent to the rear.
I am curious what has been revised on this system. (and has it been confirmed that it is actually a Haldex unit?







)

It's a Generation 2 Haldex system. Works just like the Mk1 system. Haldex makes a Performance controller for the Mk2, although it's $400 more than the HPP for the Mk1 (and much smaller...EIP Tuning sells it). Without the HPP both cars are essentially FWD until slip is detected. However, both OEM controllers can send up to 100% power to the rears during extremely brief intervals and under perfect circumstances. Neither system is complete without the HPP.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

*Re: (AutobahnTT)*

Interesting you mention that ... I was also reading someplace that the Gen2 controller has a feedback loop wherein it will do a 2 phase detection of slip and the transfer.
I also hear that the electronic boards and memory etc are bigger allowing aftermarket tuners to potentially load 2 programs into the controller for switchability.
All heresay though ... no details from anywhere reliable.


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: (pal)*

ITs good news if they have in fact improved it, I'm still wondering how they are able to send more than 50% power to the rear, to my knowledge the HPP controller serves to lock Haldex at 50:50 vs 100-50:0-50. I know 100% torque comes out of the rear when no traction is available upfront...but this isn't the same thing....


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## struTTer (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: (gizmopop)*

A dealer here told me it was all the time 60/40 and if need be 100% at either end. I asked another one just to confirm and they did. They both wanted to point out that it was a much improved system and were defiant that it was a "true" Quattro system.


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## 32Panels (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: (struTTer)*

never trust a dealer on technical information, unless you know them personally and they have shown that they understand what they are talking about.
There is a lot of confusion and misinformation that can get spread around at the dealership level.
This isn't a jab at the dealers themselves but they are just that much more susceptible to believing what they've heard from inside the company.


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## Razor1973 (Jul 25, 2001)

So no definite answer on this? I have the Haldex system in my Volvo S60R and I'd rather have "real" full-time AWD as I did in my B5 S4.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Razor1973)*

I think there is a definite answer, and it is very clear:
- the system is Haldex
- it sends about 5-10% of the torque to the rear on an ideal surface under straight driving
- when slip is detected (something like 15 degrees difference in rotation angle! - i.e., almost instantaneously), the clutch pack engages and can almost lock up fully (this was not the case with earlier, heavier Volvos and their units)
- although Gen. II is implemented, VW/Audi does not use the extra pump (Prex) that allows to pre-charge the system for yet faster available torque to the back
- the system relies on the differential rotation mechanically (the pump is driven by it), so it cannot engage via electronic impulses. A separate pump and reservoir could help with that --- then the system could be fully electronic, pro-actively engaging based on steering input, yaw angle, throttle, speed, rpm, etc. --- like some of Subaru's systems
- still, under most driving situations the system seems to be doing just fine, as per reviews. In particular, when not driving in a straight line, there is almost always sufficient differential rotation to engage the system
- the 50:50 vs. 0:100 number confusion stems from a misconception what constitutes transmitted torque. The only useful definition is the torque transmitted to the road via the wheels (or axles). Therefore, the Haldex system, since it can (almost) lock the differential, can transmit ~100% to the back although the front wheels are permanently driven (attached to the drive train). This can happen when there is virtually no traction up front, and good traction in the back. Both axles will turn at the same rate, but only the one with traction is actually transmitting torque to the road.
- marketing brochures of the R32, A3, or TT are not engineering specifications.


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## Razor1973 (Jul 25, 2001)

According to someone in the Volvo forums, this info sounds almost identical to the Volvo. To clarify the 0-100% torque transfer, the Haldex system can in fact transfer 100% to the rear, in the case where the front wheels have zero traction and the rears have good traction. This pretty much never occurs on the road, of course, but it can happen when stuck.
If this is all true, it's somewhat sad that Audi is using the same Haldex unit Volvo started using 6 years ago and is not making use of the few new features in the new implementation of the technology. Or so it seems.


_Modified by Razor1973 at 8:54 AM 4/3/2007_


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Razor1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Razor1973* »_
If this is all true, it's somewhat sad that Audi is using the same Haldex unit Volvo started using 6 years ago and is not making use of the few new features in the new implementation of the technology. Or so it seems.


No, they are not. Audi is using the second generation system, and according to Haldex' website, there are also important different software settings between e.g. wagons and sports cars. And, the system seems to be working very well by all accounts.
So, I don't see what is "sad," here.


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## Razor1973 (Jul 25, 2001)

*Re: (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_No, they are not. Audi is using the second generation system, and according to Haldex' website, there are also important different software settings between e.g. wagons and sports cars. And, the system seems to be working very well by all accounts.
So, I don't see what is "sad," here.









Well, since my S60R is not a wagon, but a 300HP sport sedan aimed directly at the S4 and M3 (which I must say I can certainly not agree with), I assume the settings will be similar to those used on the TT. Or maybe not.
But regardless... Aside from the performance of the system in question, I have a concern that stems from the fact that Audi is the creator of quattro... true. But they aren't the creator of Haldex. Can they still legally call their AWD TT quattro and keep saying they created it with a straight face?


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Razor1973)*

Sure, quattro is a marketing term (applied to at least five completely different systems), and they created that term.








If you don't trust what reviewers have to say, I think only a test drive can confirm or put to rest your reservations.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (Razor1973)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Razor1973* »_But regardless... Aside from the performance of the system in question, I have a concern that stems from the fact that Audi is the creator of quattro... true. But they aren't the creator of Haldex. Can they still legally call their AWD TT quattro and keep saying they created it with a straight face?









Yes they can.. even a few times (a la "DSG" & "S_tronic".. borgwarner did not coin any of those terms)
-I am sure BMW will coin their own term as well
Just as mentioned, it's all marketing:
If it is an AWD system that Audi approves... it's "quattro"
-It is in their best interest to make sure that the badge symbolizes a top notch awd system.
(problem is that there has been past speculation whether the Haldex system is "top notch", compared to Subi and Mitsu)
-If this speculation continued.. it would not be good for Audi
Point is.. it is at Audi's risk.
I just don't understand why they have yet to spill the beans on how this works for the MK2 (even if nothing has changed)
-Most manufactures do in fact have demos how their systems work


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## andylyco (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: (ylwghost)*

I test drove the new TT today- the salesman swore up and down that the Mk2 TT quattro is NOT A Haldex system. He says he was at the Audi track/training seminar, and they told him it is a Quattro system like other Audi's. It's sad that you can't trust the dealer. I'll just have to climb under the thing when I see my 1st new TT quattro. Or drive it.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (andylyco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *andylyco* »_I test drove the new TT today- the salesman swore up and down that the Mk2 TT quattro is NOT A Haldex system. He says he was at the Audi track/training seminar, and they told him it is a Quattro system like other Audi's. It's sad that you can't trust the dealer. I'll just have to climb under the thing when I see my 1st new TT quattro. Or drive it.









If not Haldex... it could be a new BorgWarner system.
-But this would have had to go _way_ under the radar.
Regardless: It is interesting they have not even clued in the sales-force (regarding the details).
-Does it have a center differential?


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## GTi20vMA (Aug 5, 2005)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (100500)*

Just the FYI, As I have just returned from R8 and TT Training and we have been told that there will be another TT available with Quattro called the TTS. This will feature a 265 hp 2.0t FSI 4 Cyclinder Motor. There is also a TTRS in the works


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## ccd (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (GTi20vMA)*

That may not be good news for the US. That 263 hp engine is supposedly not certified for the US


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (ccd)*

The new TT is Gen II Haldex- a more complex controller with a feedback loop for better transfer and a more seamless experience.
And based on the info so far, Audi is still undecided whether they will even offer AWD on the 2.0T TT in the US, let alone get the 265 hp motor.


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## GTi20vMA (Aug 5, 2005)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (pal)*

This comes straight from the TT Trainer that travels quit often to Germany. The engine is the same from the S3 as well as the AWD system. By the way is nothing higher than 263hp in a 4cyl engine would not pass the laws in the US the Evo and WRX STi would not be a reality here in the US. But we all know the answer to that...


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (GTi20vMA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTi20vMA* »_...there will be another TT available with Quattro called the TTS. This will feature a 265 hp 2.0t FSI 4 Cyclinder Motor. 


Good to see this "rumor" confirmed/repeated from a another source.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (pal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pal* »_The new TT is Gen II Haldex- a more complex controller with a feedback loop for better transfer and a more seamless experience.
And based on the info so far, Audi is still undecided whether they will even offer AWD on the 2.0T TT in the US, let alone get the 265 hp motor. 

I am understanding that the general split with this Haldex system is 85:15; thus making it a "permanent" awd (with the ability to transfer 100% to any axle).
While there has not been any official announcement yet (regarding quattro on the base engine, for the States), they _have_ spoke about plans for "us" to get even an A3 with quattro (on the base engine).
-I am assuming it is a given (the TT will come as a 2.0Tq), considering the TT would most likely get quattro on the 2.0T first.
(yet no official confirmation on the awd specs, either)


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (ylwghost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ylwghost* »_-I am assuming it is a given (the TT will come as a 2.0Tq), considering the TT would most likely get quattro on the 2.0T first.

The TTs on sale in the US currently are
(1) TT 2.0T 6 spd DSG FWD only.
(2) TT 3.2 6 spd manual or 6 spd DSG Quattro only.
No other choices aer available at this time.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (pal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pal* »_
The TTs on sale in the US currently are
(1) TT 2.0T 6 spd DSG FWD only.
(2) TT 3.2 6 spd manual or 6 spd DSG Quattro only.
No other choices aer available at this time.

To Clarify:
I ment "first", meaning _when _the 2.0Tquattro drivetrain is available.. the TT will (most likely) be the 1st, before the said "A3 sport."

_Quote, originally posted by *Jason Teller @ audiworld.com* »_One the best tidbits we picked up at Sebring was confirmation that Audi will eventually be offering an A3 2.0T quattro in the US.

http://www.audiworld.com/news/...umors/
-quattro on the base TT is pretty much a given (I was told at the la auto show, 7months after launch).


_Modified by ylwghost at 1:42 PM 4-16-2007_


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (ylwghost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ylwghost* »_
-quattro on the base TT is pretty much a given (I was told at the la auto show, 7months after launch).


Very cool ... I am looking forward to the 2.0T 6spd Quattro TT. That should be a very sporty combination given the aluminium/steel layout, better weight distribution, mag ride and Gen2 Haldex.


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (ccd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ccd* »_That 263 hp engine is supposedly not certified for the US

I'd probably just add a 'yet" to the end of that.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (pal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pal* »_
Very cool ... I am looking forward to the 2.0T 6spd Quattro TT. That should be a very sporty combination given the aluminium/steel layout, better weight distribution, mag ride and Gen2 Haldex.

- don't forget to add the adjusting xenons http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

And to hope that the (stand-alone) quattro option may off-set (partially) the lack of DSG -- it would really be a "bargain" for ~36k (base); IMO.



_Modified by ylwghost at 9:01 AM 4-17-2007_


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## andylyco (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: Curious about the TT's AWD system (ylwghost)*

Tuesday I spoke with Harvey Huffman- one of the salesmen at Desert Audi in Las Vegas. He told me he is one of the few salesmen in the USA who are traveling to Ingolstadt next week for further training and test drives. He seemed to know a LOT more about the technical details than the last salesman with whom I spoke.
He claims that the new TT quattro does indeed use the Haldex system, although with a full time 10% power split to the rear.
In addition to the 2.0 DSG that I've already test driven, Desert Audi just received a 3.2 MT Quattro Coupe (red, black leather) and a 3.2 DSG Quattro Roadster. (silver, baseball interior!!) I was hoping to get there to test drive them today, but with my schedule it looks like it'll have to wait till next week... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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