# 2007-2008 difference



## cndracer25 (Mar 19, 2009)

could anybody tell me the difference from the 2007(150hp) motor and the 2008 and on(170hp)motor. is it a internal mod or just a software upgrade. and it possible to make the change to the older motor. thanks


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## MK5_II.V (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (cndracer25)*

i was wondering about this for a while too, found this stuff a little while back
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4020541 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3660884 

its also discussed a little in here
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4100576 


_Modified by MK5_II.V at 1:51 AM 3-20-2009_


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## darkk (Jun 22, 2006)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (cndracer25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cndracer25* »_could anybody tell me the difference from the 2007(150hp) motor and the 2008 and on(170hp)motor.

...sales hype...no real noticeable difference on a dyno. one is smoother here,the other more torque for 500rpm in this range,this one has more hp at this rpm,blah,blah,blah.comes out the same in the end +/-...


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

The revised motor has a much smoother powerband that delivers power all the way up until the redline (which is higher than the old motor). The older motor has a sharp drop in power around 5200 rpm. Don't make it out to be sales hype, my sis drives an 08, and stock for stock it is a much smoother motor than my 07.


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## darkk (Jun 22, 2006)

*Re: (david8814)*


_Quote, originally posted by *david8814* »_The revised motor has a much smoother powerband that delivers power all the way up until the redline (which is higher than the old motor). The older motor has a sharp drop in power around 5200 rpm. Don't make it out to be sales hype, my sis drives an 08, and stock for stock it is a much smoother motor than my 07.

there have been many discussions on the subject. yes the new motor is smoother. the "old" motor is more in spurts here and there. there is not a substantial redline difference.all said and done, the hp difference in the end is less than 4 hp. this can happen to the same engine over several different dyno sessions. there have been a couple of dynos on the vortex. I should have bookmarked it but it wasn't that big a deal to me.


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## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (darkk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darkk* »_
...sales hype...no real noticeable difference on a dyno. one is smoother here,the other more torque for 500rpm in this range,this one has more hp at this rpm,blah,blah,blah.comes out the same in the end +/-...

Not really, because VW never made a big deal out of it. If VW was about big hp, then why are 2.0Ts putting down 180-190whp, but VW says 200bhp? A lot of 150 hp motors are putting down 125-135whp and 170 hp motors are putting down 140-147whp which is pretty right on when you calculate 15% FWD power loss. The 08's have more hp through out the power band. If you drive both years, you will notice the difference. 
The only thing that isn't really different is the torque. The 07s and 08s seem to be putting down about the same. 
Also a lot of VWs are inconsistant in power. I've seen 172 hp stock 12v vr6 put down anywhere from 135-160whp. It is stupid to look at one dyno and call it truth.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (2ohgti)*

The ~smoothness is due to the cam phase tuning difference.
easy enough to put that tuning into the 'older' motors and have the same smoothness...








mmm, I've been doing this since the 1st time I read an '08 file... (say Jan. 2008)
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*

So are you saying C2 software for the older 2.5s includes the upgraded ECU mapping of the 08?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (_V-Dubber_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_V-Dubber_* »_So are you saying C2 software for the older 2.5s includes the upgraded ECU mapping of the 08?

Yes. I put the mod in all the way back to the '05.5 software.
When the '08 car hit the street the 'advertised' power went up.
Since the motor hard parts are the same (basically), the only 'real' difference had to be in software.
i.e. if you change a valve guide you cannot magically make 20hp.
the reality is that the '08 does NOT make significantly more power than the '07, its just a bit smoother in its delivery.
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

and the truth is finally told...lol


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*

So then theoretically with all other variables being equal, if an 07 with C2 software was dyno'd and its graph compared with an 08 with C2 software, the power curves should be almost identical in shape and be pretty close in peak power? And this goes for C2's turbo software as well, I imagine?
Sorry for being so anal retentive this is just an interesting topic IMO. Why didnt you mention that in your advertising that you smoothed out the older 2.5 power curve? That would have been a tremendous selling point for you.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (_V-Dubber_)*

Yes, this mod is applied to C2 turbo stuff also.
re: advertise the '08 software match...
We have defo mentioned this before, but most don't 'hear' it, I guess.
Customer reviews tend to be seen as a 'nut swinging'.
Others come into the 2.5L market, after saying 'there is no market for 2.5L' with drivability fixes for the 2.5L that I solved over TWO years ago....
I don't know what more I can do.
Want a CAM for your 2.5L? We're working on that too...
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*

WOOT!!!! cams http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk5 r666 (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (bunnyhopin)*

I knew I wanted C2 software, I just didn't realize how much. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Oh and cams?








This thread made me happy.


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Yes, this mod is applied to C2 turbo stuff also.
re: advertise the '08 software match...
We have defo mentioned this before, but most don't 'hear' it, I guess.
Customer reviews tend to be seen as a 'nut swinging'.
Others come into the 2.5L market, after saying 'there is no market for 2.5L' with drivability fixes for the 2.5L that I solved over TWO years ago....
I don't know what more I can do.
Want a CAM for your 2.5L? We're working on that too...
-Jeffrey Atwood


Wow! Any ball park price on the Cam?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (SpiderX1016)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpiderX1016* »_
Wow! Any ball park price on the Cam?

More than $100 but, less than $1000.
Honestly: I have no idea right now what it'll cost, I'm not at that point in the process yet.
-Jeffrey Atwood


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*

I apologize for my ignorance. If its been mentioned on Vortex before, word never reached my ear.
Anyways, thats very good you fixed the power delivery. Makes me not feel too bad about having the "older" 2.5. I'm sure Brad Beadrow from 1552 has contacted you about purchasing a custom stage III for my Rabbit?
As far as cams go, I dont know how much more I can spend on this build. We're still waiting for Pauter to get back to us and let us know if they can make us a set of the 6AL4V-grade titanium rods. You have to ask at the time of purchase since quantities of this type of titanium are limited. If word comes down from Pauter that the answer is yes, then idk if I'll be able to spring for the cams at this time since Shawn estimates its going to run me about $800-$1000 PER ROD (x5 rods lol). I'll see how much I have leftover. If word comes down from Pauter that the answer is no, then obviously I'll have plenty of leftover cash for cams.
What degree & duration are you planning? I know I'll have to give up a little on the bottom end in order to make a sh!tload up top and I know you always err on the side of safety, but Jeff dont make the powerband too peaky since these cars do not rev high so it wouldnt do any good to make a cam that would only make peak power above 6 grand. That just wouldnt make any sense. Anyways, how soon could you have a working prototype ready? Hello, test car sitting here ready and waiting.
Getting back to the purpose of the thread, I know VW changed valve guides, changed the cam chain type, deleted the IAT sensor (in 2008 and later cars) and then later switch to a MAP sensor (in 09 cars), added an exhaust cam sensor. So all the hardware changes I think were just refinements to the engine and didnt really add any power. I dont think it was anything like oh the 2008 intake manifold is better because its not. It looks exactly the same. All those refinements helped to smooth out the power curve. To increase power what I think happened was VW changed the ECU tuning. VW might have used that exhaust cam positioning sensor to either add variable exhaust cam timing or used the information of the exhaust cam position as an additional imput to help fine-tune its ECU programming for a hair more power.


_Modified by _V-Dubber_ at 3:10 AM 3-26-2009_


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## mk5 r666 (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*

Alright, I have a question.
I'm not extremely knowledgeable about these kind of things; would the cams need their own updated tune or would it just be plug and play with the regular C2 software?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (mk5 r666)*

Cam specific software WILL be required, for a C2 cam...
It will be a 'package', intake cam combined software.

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## mk5 r666 (Nov 23, 2008)

*Re: 2007-2008 difference (Jefnes3)*

Good to know, thanks.


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

sweet i get a c2 flash in may then a cam is def on my list along with a intake mani and headers/testpipe I may actually see a all motor 200whp bunny afterall...thanks c2


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (youngkal)*

You'll need alot more than that to get 200 WHEEL hp out of the 2.5. And good luck on the intake manifold, looks like everyone has given up on developing one for mass-market http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## chilipad (Jan 6, 2007)

Hey Jeff, where can I buy your software in Ontario?


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: (_V-Dubber_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_V-Dubber_* »_You'll need alot more than that to get 200 WHEEL hp out of the 2.5. And good luck on the intake manifold, looks like everyone has given up on developing one for mass-market http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Dude....give it some time....its getting made...just need a company to get off their asses to make it. 
Its the same with the supercharger thats being made right now. If one person can take the time to figure it out, soon a company will pick up on it and either help out like C2 has ( http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif by the way C2 ) or make their own.
Intake manifold 2.5L
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...89770
Eaton Supercharger for 2.5L
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4177789
They are both almost done http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Cherb32 (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re:*

There also needs to be some C2 dealers in north CA!


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## Froster (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: (chilipad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chilipad* »_Hey Jeff, where can I buy your software in Ontario?

x2


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## lexluthor (Feb 6, 2009)

I dynoed before I chipped the ecu and then I dynoed after and if anything it has a smoother band.


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