# Linden VW 'Smoke Test ' finds big problem in 3" Downpipe !



## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Over a year ago a slight seepage of carbon was detected coming from the clamp area 
in between the downpipe and the cat. Had it Perma Sealed but now, after a 'smoke test',
not only had the leak become present again but severe deterioration of the actual pipe
occurred. Simply replacing the clamp was not going to correct the problem so I had two 
alternatives. 1. Take it to a professional welder and see if he could repair the pipe to a
point where it was considered correctly repaired. 2. Replace the APR downpipe. The fact
that my downpipe had not had the clamp removed when we went with the Perma Sealing,
about 6,000 miles ago, and now was showing a case of extreme metal fatigue that was far
more severe than before, I decided to replace the downpipe. I just didn't feel comfortable 
going with the APR downpipe again and I had 'Linden' replace it with one from HPA that they 
had on hand. All went well with the install and after doing another 'smoke test' I left 'Linden' 
with no problems experienced on the drive home. Will see how this one holds up over time.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

Congrats! I hope my APR Downpipe doesn't fall apart lol.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Vwguy026 said:


> Congrats! I hope my APR Downpipe doesn't fall apart lol.


Even though my set-up is with a K04, I was surprised to see such a high degree of metal fatgue
in the pipe, especially with so little mileage on it.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

I agree, it's really strange. Maybe the heat from the k04 burned it up perhaps?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Our downpipes don't fall apart. However, should they for some strange reason, they carry a lifetime warranty. 

I'm curious why I keep seeing the following pattern:

*Post by:*
ridgemanron

*Content:*
Something Anti-Insert Tuners Name Here
Something Pro-HPA
Something Pro-Linden VW

This has been going on for a few years now. Seems pretty fishy.


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

did your good friends at linden/hpa not tell you that their products carry life time warranty on their product? why use permaseal when you can simply call them to have the item replaced. 

I will post pictures of my APR 3'' catted downpipe from my last car with 80k on a k04 setup. Just as good as the day i put it on..


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

The original installation of the downpipe was done at a standard auto repair shop over two years
ago. The perma seal was done months later around the clamp and seemed to have stopped
the seepage of air. Thought it was only the fitting of the clamp that was the problem but now 
I can't determine the cause, only that the pipe had metal deterioration in it.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Our downpipes don't fall apart. However, should they for some strange reason, they carry a lifetime warranty.
> 
> I'm curious why I keep seeing the following pattern:
> 
> ...


Just for the record, your warranty does not include labor, misuse, faulty installation, failure of
related parts or parts purchased other than from APR, LLC. Shipping wasn't mentioned. Since my
HPA K04 can be considered as 'related parts purchased other than from APR, I smell a lot of wiggle
room for you there. 'Misuse' and 'faulty installation' are two other areas that leave you tons more
wiggle room. I'll end by saying that when your APR Tuner wasn't able to tune my Stage II, which was 
done by them in coordination with APR procedure, I was never told that my not being able to pass N.Y.
Inspection by a standard inspection station after your tuner exhausted all his attempts to avoid it, no
mention of a refund for my 'not properly functioning' Stage II being removed was ever offered to me. 
HPA guaranteed me I'd pay nothing in the event they weren't able to have me pass inspection anywhere.
No wiggle room for them there but then again, they're not APR are they?


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## oidoglr (Jan 26, 2009)

What I'd like to know is why there's always strange formatting in your posts, ridge.


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## Chris659 (Nov 16, 2012)

:facepalm:



:thumbdown:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

ridgemanron said:


> Just for the record, your warranty does not include labor, misuse, faulty installation, failure of
> related parts or parts purchased other than from APR, LLC. Shipping wasn't mentioned. Since my
> HPA K04 can be considered as 'related parts purchased other than from APR, I smell a lot of wiggle
> room for you there. 'Misuse' and 'faulty installation' are two other areas that leave you tons more
> wiggle room.


If you read any warrant, you'll roughly find the same literature. However, if one of our parts fails, and it has a lifetime warranty, and nothing was stupidly out of order (like say, cutting the exhaust in half and welding it back together), we'll follow through with the warranty. We enjoy customer service and our customers enjoy it too. I would have suggested you simply contact us. It could have saved you in the long run. 



> I'll end by saying that when your APR Tuner wasn't able to tune my Stage II,


I'm not sure that statement makes sense unless the tuner was simply not paying their bills and was temporarily shut off, didn't buy the tools to flash the car, or something else strange was going on. We did get rid of your local dealer because we did have a lot of problems with them. Maybe that's the scenario in which you speak? However good dealers in your area, like RedLine Speed Worx, bend over backwards to help their, and our customers. They're always up on their game and their level of commitment and work really shows. 



> Inspection by a standard inspection station after your tuner exhausted all his attempts to avoid it, no
> mention of a refund for my 'not properly functioning' Stage II being removed was ever offered to me.


I'm not sure if I follow. You've removed your catalyst. In New York, it's possible you can't do that and still pass emissions. It doesn't matter what exhaust / tuner you choose. If it's not stock, they can fail you. 



> HPA guaranteed me I'd pay nothing in the event they weren't able to have me pass inspection anywhere.
> No wiggle room for them there but then again, they're not APR are they?


When it comes to the computer tests, we can make your car pass readiness. That's simple and trivial. However, it's a federal offense. That's what we consider a "big crime" so we don't do it. :thumbup:

Usually you, as the end user, can just simply install a spacer on your rear O2 sensor and you, yourself, can cheat the test on your own. But keep us out of it!


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Tried, today, to take my original 3" downpipe carton to Linden and ask them to send the pipe
back for your inspection but they had already thrown it in the dumpster and it was taken away.
The Service Mgr., Rick Campbell, should be able to supply you with tech details concerning the
problems he noted in the pipe, if your interested. As far as my car having no cat, that isn't and
wasn't the case. I am able to pass strict N.Y. Inspection without 02 sensor inserts, and that was
with your Downpipe as well as the HPA one that I now have in the car. Hey, I still have your 
Intercooler and Tranny Mount in the car so that's something in APR's favor. Like I've said, Stage II
was a nightmare when the tuner couldn't get the car to pass a N.Y. Inspection at a standard 
auto repair shop and that's when I moved on to HPA. Since your Downpipe was installed by a 
regular repair shop, perhaps something wasn't quite right during fitment, but we'll never know. The
guy has over 35 years experience and I would think he knew what he was doing during the install,
but anything is possible.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I'm not sure if I follow. You've removed your catalyst. In New York, it's possible you can't do that and still pass emissions. It doesn't matter what exhaust / tuner you choose. If it's not stock, they can fail you.


Arin seriously save your breath, I tried to explain to him his aftermarket exhaust was illegal anyway, but he doesn't care. He's just he to talk poorly about people.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Dr. Bozo! Are you 'stuck on stupid' or is it something that 'comes and goes'? My downpipe, whether
it was the APR one or the present HPA unit, has a cat. The only difference between an APR Tune
and the Tune from HPA is that I don't need 02 sensor inserts to pass N.Y. Inspection.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

A 200 cell race cat, which is what is on those downpipes, is NOT legal no matter what. PERIOD! From the factory it comes with 2 cats with what I believe are 2 400 cell cats. 

posted via tapatalk


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)




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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

you are correct "Dr. Bozo" or w.e he calls you. Factory cats are 400 cells. It doesnt matter if the downpipe is catless or catted it is stamped on the downpipe (even catted ones) for OFF ROAD USE ONLY. Hence why people need o2 foolers to pass minus Mr. HPA here. 

Glad for you on the no fooler needed ridgemanron. I personally don't care if my car has one or not since either way the downpipe's high flow cat is illegal in the state of new york. 

Damn you Arin and your illegal parts!!!! :laugh: :heart:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

ridgemanron said:


> Dr. Bozo! Are you 'stuck on stupid' or is it something that 'comes and goes'? My downpipe, whether
> it was the APR one or the present HPA unit, has a cat. The only difference between an APR Tune
> and the Tune from HPA is that I don't need 02 sensor inserts to pass N.Y. Inspection.


If the only change was software, then the software cheated the test. Doing so is a federal offence. Not our cup of tea. :thumbup:


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> If the only change was software, then the software cheated the test. Doing so is a federal offence. Not our cup of tea. :thumbup:


Don't bother trying to tell him that Arin lol

EEEK I'm agreeing with Arin, I better get outta here asap! lol


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> If the only change was software, then the software cheated the test. Doing so is a federal offence. Not our cup of tea. :thumbup:


you are only mad because you want to know their secret... you HOUND :laugh: opcorn: :heart:


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## ViRtUaLheretic (Aug 17, 2008)

bc racecar


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

APR isn't able to fine tune an ECU so that it can pass a strict inspection like that in N.Y. and 
don't have a clue as to how HPA does, so Arin decides to call what HPA does as being illegal.
It isn't, for if it was then the highly sophisticated NY Emission Probe would red-flag the car,
and it doesn't. He knows full well that the NY System would not pass inspection for APR tuned
cars without illegal 02 sensor inserts in the downpipe, so he turns around and says, 'You the
consumer can do this illegal add on to the downpipe but remember that APR doesn't do it.'
Remember, an APR Tuned Car will stop the illegal signal APR has programmed into the ECU,
via their, oops! I mean your, illegal 02 sensor inserts, before the sensor is able to feed back
the info into the ECU. Plain fact of the matter is APR would be in deep 'do do' if 02 sensor inserts
were 'magically' removed from being available.........whereas HPA wouldn't.

Case in point: Volvo offers a tweak of the ECU to give you more power and according to the U.S.
Government it is perfectly legal. What HPA does is technically no different. What the U.S. Government
won't allow is placing 02 sensor inserts in a downpipe and Volvo is very careful not to state that
their customers can do that.


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## ViRtUaLheretic (Aug 17, 2008)

are you really that stupid?


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

ridgemanron said:


> APR isn't able to fine tune an ECU so that it can pass a strict inspection like that in N.Y. and
> don't have a clue as to how HPA does, so Arin decides to call what HPA does as being illegal.
> It isn't, for if it was then the highly sophisticated NY Emission Probe would red-flag the car,
> and it doesn't. He knows full well that the NY System would not pass inspection for APR tuned
> ...


what you seem to not understand is the following: 

the APR tune parameters as far as emissions require the CBFA ecu to use a fouler to pass the "strict" ny inspection. 

the HPA tune embeds the same effect of the fouler in its SOFTWARE without the requirement of HARDWARE. 

At the end of the day is the same exact thing...... either way with or without fouler it is not LEGAL in the state of ny to run a 200 cel cat. 

This is what we have been trying to explain to you.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

sp33dy said:


> what you seem to not understand is the following:
> 
> the APR tune parameters as far as emissions require the CBFA ecu to use a fouler to pass the "strict" ny inspection.
> 
> ...


For your information, HPA offers a 100 cell cat, not a 200 cell cat. I think you missed my 'Volvo' add on. I
think you should read it and if you aren't able to comprehend it, see if Dr. Bozo can explain it to you.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)




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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

ridgemanron said:


> For your information, HPA offers a 100 cell cat, not a 200 cell cat. I think you missed my 'Volvo' add on. I
> think you should read it and if you aren't able to comprehend it, see if Dr. Bozo can explain it to you.


You amaze me, can't even read your own stuff. So Volvo offers a tweak for more power with the stock exhaust in place, hmmm funnyy how that has nothing to do with this lol


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Volvo Polestar Tuning:

Software recalibrates hundreds of parameters that control the engine which
* increases turbo charge boost pressure
* re-optimization of ignition and fuel mapping
* recalibration of throttle response.

ALL IS LEGAL AND NOT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HPA DOES !


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

if it is a 100 cell cat it is even worse for emission related issues but since you dont have any then great. Good for you. 

Not sure why do you have to be a complete di.ckhead on every thread. You are stating wrong facts and hate when even a tuning company tries to correct you. It is no ones fault but your own that you did not contact APR about the issues directly rather than "throwing the downpipe on a dumpster"

you are not happy with an APR product, you are entitled to, just stop spreading false rumors. You are the only person that i know of who has ever had an issue with an apr down pipe "falling apart" or with "illegal charges" to pass inspection. I am sorry that happened to you but there are different ways to deal with this. 

You can continue to try to insult Mario calling him dr. w.e or call me stupid i could care less it only makes you look worse than you already do. 

I know i do not speak for myself when i say that this behavior of yours to post the same story on every thread is getting very old. 

It is a shame that a fellow New Yorker and enthusiast can be such a sour fellow. Best of luck to you sir. 

end/

Arin, Jason, Mario and others - Do not bother anymore. There is no light at the end of the tunel.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

APR knows that selling a 3" downpipe isn't illegal......but placing inserts in them is.
HPA knows that selling a 3" downpipe isn't illegal......but placing inserts in them is.

Now, who advocates the addition of these inserts? In his own words, Arin of APR does. He just wants
the customer to do it and not APR, for if they did their company would be in big trouble.

HPA doesn't have to advocate the addition of these inserts....because their Tune doesn't require it.

APR, HPA, and even Volvo do major software re-calibration to increase power. This is legal.

When people like you and Dr. Bozo try to install character assassination with a littany of pure 'BS',
and then try to present yourselves as being upstanding people, when you're totally the opposite,
you make me laugh. Arin needs to perpetuate the 'BS' because of his being a part of APR. That
I can understand, but you two guys should let people present their points on the site and let each
member decide if they found them useful. If I don't care for some of the ignorant, self centered 
threads guys like you two post, I ignore them. You two, think you're above this and like to 'snipe'.
At least, if your 'sniping' was based in fact, that would be one thing, but when you guys make up crap
'on the fly', that's a totally different matter.


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

ridgemanron said:


> APR knows that selling a 3" downpipe isn't illegal......but placing inserts in them is.
> HPA knows that selling a 3" downpipe isn't illegal......but placing inserts in them is.
> 
> Now, who advocates the addition of these inserts? In his own words, Arin of APR does. He just wants
> ...


Snipe? pure BS? - sure Sir. I would like to point out that you do not ignore threads you simply post the same mambo jumbo on every single one of them. It doesnt matter if it is an intake thread, exhaust thread or turbo thread, the outcome it is always the same. 

I have been part of this community for way too long to make "crap" on the fly. 

PS - i am not above anything, i just happen to not need a shop do my work therefore im very familiar with my VW's - I guess a paying customer like yourself would not understand that. 

I will just say good bye and best of luck.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

I personally like the way he says we're performing (your install word isn't properly used at all) character assassinations yet he's always calling me Dr Bozo, bit hypocritical no? Trololololol

posted via tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Everyone else on the forums seems to understand what I've posted, correct?

If so, I don't see any point in responding further on my end.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

Volvo polestar mod is equivalent to a tuner's stage 1 program 


Does polestar offer a downpipe with less restrictive cats?

the stock downpipe has a 600 cpi cat (1st cat) and a 400 cpi cat (2nd cat).... technically, replacing a fully functioning stock downpipe with a less restrictive downpipe also violates the federal laws for emissions.... that's why there is usually a disclaimer of "For off-road use only"

Also, if there is a defect with the HPA downpipe, will you demand HPA to cover the labor? Most likely they won't. They'll only cover the downpipe. Then you'll have to demand Linden VW to cover your labor.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

BsickPassat said:


> Volvo polestar mod is equivalent to a tuner's stage 1 program
> 
> 
> Does polestar offer a downpipe with less restrictive cats?
> ...


Whereas you mention companies that offer less restrictive cats, which both APR and HPA do, both 'openly'
offer their products. Because APR knows the vital need for 02 sensor inserts in their downpipe, in order to
pass State Inspections, they are careful to mention their not installing them, but as their rep said, 'customers 
can do this on their own'. I assume their legal advisors feel this is their way to protect themselves from
lawsuits. However, if this was tested in a court of law, would they be absolved of wrong doing, since they have
made it clear that the illegal inserts are of vital importance for inspection in their cars? With regard to the
tuning of the ECU. All three, APR, HPA & Volvo, recalibrate numerous parameters that control the engine,
allowing for added power. Again, this is an area that they all advertise openly. Only APR, and not HPA or
Volvo, makes sure to address the fact that they don't install illegal downpipe inserts. Why? Because they are
the only one of the three companies mentioned who know that their tunes require them as a vital part of 
allowing their tuned cars to pass inspection, whereas HPA doesn't. If you want to place Volvo in a somewhat
different category because they don't get involved with less restrictive downpipes and are adding much less
power in their tuning, that is understandable. However, APR and HPA are to be compared to each other and
the plain fact of the matter is that both do high level tunes, both offer less restrictive cats, but only one of
them goes further, having to address the vital need for their tuned cars to add illegal inserts that cannot be
advertised openly in the same way the less restrictive cats can be....and are. When I hear moronic statements
like, 'HPA's tuning is illegal.......but APR's isn't', it's laughable. To prove this, simply examine the fact that HPA
Tunes have been approved by Volkswagen, Inc., after having been examined for legality by their legal staff.


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

ridgemanron said:


> Whereas you mention companies that offer less restrictive cats, which both APR and HPA do, both 'openly'
> offer their products. Because APR knows the vital need for 02 sensor inserts in their downpipe, in order to
> pass State Inspections, they are careful to mention their not installing them, but as their rep said, 'customers
> can do this on their own'. I assume their legal advisors feel this is their way to protect themselves from
> ...


and APR has not been approved by Volkswagen? Are you kidding me? Have you paid attention at any point for the last 10+ years? What company has the most amount of builds and prototypes for VW? 

you keep twisting words around to try and make a point.... it is not the software that is illegal (to drive in ny streets) is the HARDWARE which is for OFF ROAD USE ONLY. That is what you keep missing. Im sure at this point you are just doing in on purpose. 

You seem to think you know a lot about "law" but you are wrong. The company in no event has forced you to purchase or install "off road use only" parts on a daily driven vehicle, therefore it is your choice and yours only to do such thing. Meaning, the one committing the only illegal act is you, me and everyone else who opts to not run the OEM equipment in the car. It does not matter if it is APR, HPA or whoever. less than 400 cell cats are illegal in the state of new york period. No ifs ands or buts. 

Again it does not matter if you "pass" or not since you are only passing readiness which is the ecu telling the DMV "hey this guys car is ok" that is all. It does not matter how do you pass readiness as long as you do (ecu tuning for readiness is what differs APR from HPA) If you go to states where visual inspection of emissions is required and you have a high flow cat, IE: Ohio - you will not pass. 

No one said here HPA's tune in your car is illegal, who the hell cares, we said the tune is made to trick the ecu to think there is a fouler on the 3rd o2 sensor or simply stop the readings on it. Which has the same effect as if you were to add a piece of HARDWARE to compliment your SOFTWARE such as a o2 spacer. 

Like i mentioned before a paying customer much like yourself may not understand ecu tuning and how things work under the hood so please do not take it upon yourself to try and explain to people how things work when you do not do your own work. It is eminently clear that you pay for your modifications and have no clue what parts affect what and how do things work.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

sp33dy said:


> Again it does not matter if you "pass" or not since you are only passing readiness which is the ecu telling the DMV "hey this guys car is ok" that is all. It does not matter how do you pass readiness as long as you do (ecu tuning for readiness is what differs APR from HPA) If you go to states where visual inspection of emissions is required and you have a high flow cat, IE: Ohio - you will not pass.


Glad you mentioned this since I live in a state which requires visual inspection. What happens is they plug into the ecu just like in NY, but then they have to send pictures of your car to the dmv. If the dmv comes back and requires more, they will actually take a picture of the underside of the car to prove the proper cats are in place. Luckily they did not require this when I went but if they had I would have failed immediately and not due to the spacer but due to lack of proper catalytic converter. It happened to me on my mkv.

posted via tapatalk


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

drtechy said:


> Glad you mentioned this since I live in a state which requires visual inspection. What happens is they plug into the ecu just like in NY, but then they have to send pictures of your car to the dmv. If the dmv comes back and requires more, they will actually take a picture of the underside of the car to prove the proper cats are in place. Luckily they did not require this when I went but if they had I would have failed immediately.
> 
> posted via tapatalk


That is exactly what i mean... but i guess im screaming at a deaf


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

sp33dy said:


> and APR has not been approved by Volkswagen? Are you kidding me? Have you paid attention at any point for the last 10+ years? What company has the most amount of builds and prototypes for VW?
> 
> you keep twisting words around to try and make a point.... it is not the software that is illegal (to drive in ny streets) is the HARDWARE which is for OFF ROAD USE ONLY. That is what you keep missing. Im sure at this point you are just doing in on purpose.
> 
> ...


Moron! Your Bozo Brigade were the ones who said that HPA is doing something so illegal with regard to tuning.
Then when I point out that VW has approved their tune at their dealership, you pivot to not address the fact that
your staements were 'BS', but that APR is also available at the VW dealership. You're a group of lying scoundrels,
love that word, who can't handle the fact that the HPA Tune is without inserts and APR's is. With regard to the cat,
I've been told that HPA's downpipe is superior for power than APR's. Are you going to backtrack on that too?
APR and TyrolSport both were not there to help solve my problem when Stage II was installed. I went to HPA
when they guaranteed me I would hve no inserts and no problem passing inspection in N.Y.. I'm still waiting for
APR to guarantee inspection passing here in N.Y.....or anywhere for that matter. They won't do it. Therefor, who
should I have turned to when APR and TyrolSport 'threw me under the bus'? These are a few of the points why
you are a moron. Dr. Bozo has already told me he's a jerk via PM. He was 'on the money' with that self 
description of his. Any you, you're another one who PM's me. I can see how you're not interested in my talking,
unless it's something that is self serving for you.

P.S. - Whether you know it or not, your Bozo Buddies, along with Mike at Tyrol, all accused HPA of doing an
illegal tune, and that's how this whole scenario began from 'Day 1'. Now you make a moronic statement that
they never accused of HPA of doing al illegal tune. Go back and check the transcripts , you A$$!


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## JPeezy (Mar 30, 2007)

ridgemanron said:


> Moron! Your Bozo Brigade were the ones who said that HPA is doing something so illegal with regard to tuning.
> Then when I point out that VW has approved their tune at their dealership, you pivot to not address the fact that
> your staements were 'BS', but that APR is also available at the VW dealership. You're a group of lying scoundrels,
> love that word, who can't handle the fact that the HPA Tune is without inserts and APR's is. With regard to the cat,
> ...


I would love for you to call me moron in person, lets try that out and see how it goes. You keep switching statements and accusing people of BS this and that. Tyrol and APR BOTH posted on your threads saying you were the problem and offering help. You did not want neither, so why dont you just stop this. 

I tried making amends with you but you are a complete idiot who wants to have the last word on a matter where you are wrong. Ive said plenty times is great for you that you can pass inspection without an instert. BRAVO for HPA. needless to say you continue to say i cant handle the fact. 

I think you are the one who cant handle the fact that even if you pass or not with or without inserts you are stil using off road parts only that given a visual inspection would fail your "hpa k04 car"


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

ridgemanron said:


> Whereas you mention companies that offer less restrictive cats, which both APR and HPA do, both 'openly'
> offer their products. Because APR knows the vital need for 02 sensor inserts in their downpipe, in order to
> pass State Inspections, they are careful to mention their not installing them, but as their rep said, 'customers
> can do this on their own'. I assume their legal advisors feel this is their way to protect themselves from
> ...


How is HPA tune approved by VW? It isn't, where's your proof? You have none.

Second, why didn't you just get stage 1 software? It does not require you purchase a downpipe.

Your ignorance on this thread is appalling


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

:what: Locking this up until I can figure out what is going on.


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