# looking for some info on NA 20v's



## bunicula (Sep 9, 2001)

hello all.. ive been back and forth on building an all motor 20v and may have the chance to aquire one in the coming months so i wanted to see if i could get alittle more info on them..
from what i gather the only real diferance between these and our 20v T's is pistons and possibly the headgasket.. ive also heard that select years were made with all alum blocks but im not sure what year or what engine code those would be 
lastly im curious if anyone has built one of these on here and what kind of success you have had.. 
TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*

WolfGTI has one that I tuned to 193whp, there's a thread on it somewhere.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bunicula* »_... and may have the chance to aquire one in the coming months 

Buying Yves Bedard's engine?


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## bunicula (Sep 9, 2001)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (billyVR6)*

wow wolfies set up is pretty crazy! myself im not looking to do a hybrid 20v, im actually looking at getting a NA 20v from overseas to take all the guess work out...
Billy, Nah i have a buddie who imports tons of parts and is checking on some things for me..


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (Issam Abed)*

I know my machine shop has done 1, for a dude in south africa. He used it for rallye racing. Oh yea if anybody wants some huge schrick 20v cams let me know.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_I...anybody wants some huge schrick 20v cams let me know.

No, but got any dirt cheap FSI cams?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bunicula* »_im actually looking at getting a NA 20v from overseas to take all the guess work out...

So you're going to have the base of the build be the 1.8L ADR engine, or hold out for the 2.0 ALT?


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## bunicula (Sep 9, 2001)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (billyVR6)*

well as of now id most likely use the ADR code as they would be more readily available.. but after talking with a few people and getting some more info i may just use an AEB and try to source some stock NA 20v pistons and call it a day.. as stated im really not trying to build a crazy numbers motor.. just something little different than the average 16v swap in a mk1...


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*










































merry christmas guys lol


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (fourthchirpin)*

Interesting cam bearing girdle.


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Interesting cam bearing girdle.

yea, also the ports are alot better on this one. then even the AEB's.
note: the double cam gear is not stock.


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

What is that head off of?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (franque)*

Yeah I caught that







I know there is a VWMS part number for the head, don't think it was an actual 'production' item.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

*DO WANT*


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

That head is from the ALT engine.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bunicula* »_may just use an AEB and try to source some stock NA 20v pistons and call it a day. 

Look into the Audi 30v V6 engine. They are 5 valve cylinder heads with notched pistons, and one of them is 82.5mm bore with 92.8mm stroke. Those pistons are pretty easy to find used and would allow you gain displacement on the cheap.


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## bunicula (Sep 9, 2001)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (billyVR6)*

wowzers that head is a thing of beauty.. 
thanks for the tip on the 30v pistons billy! ill have to do some research on the matter http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

just found an ALT on ebay.de if someone wants to finagle shipping lol
http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-A4-A6-...c5c7b


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bunicula* »_thanks for the tip on the 30v pistons billy! ill have to do some research on the matter http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I wish I could remember more but that was a long time ago, and everything is gone.

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_just found an ALT on ebay.de

They're out there, a lot more now than before and $2500 is a lot better than than the $4K shipped this guy wanted over four years ago. Still, that $2500 (not even going to include the shipping) would have you well on your way using better aftermarket parts with a used large port head. That route will leave you with over a $1000 to spend on the build elsewhere.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
yea, also the ports are alot better on this one. then even the AEB's.
note: the double cam gear is not stock.

Nah Bro...
ports are pretty much the same.
BTDT... (on the ALT and the dual camgears)









_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_just found an ALT on ebay.de if someone wants to finagle shipping lol
http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-A4-A6-...c5c7b


Chris,
the issue with importing the ALT motor is :
1. They are expensive to source
2. The only useful part to most of us is the head
3. freight associated with it.
Before the engine even touches your door stop you are looking @ $3000 USD.
For $3000 USD you can build a pretty serious cylinder head. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 75injectedSB (Feb 6, 2006)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bunicula* »_thanks for the tip on the 30v pistons billy! ill have to do some research on the matter http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Been looking into this more. The 30v's use a 154mm rod, so your 10mm longer than 1.8t(144mm)and 5mm shorter than an ABA(159mm)rod. You could use these pistons in an ABA block and have it decked to bring up compression. Billy, do you remember any more on this, looking to go this route pretty soon myself.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (75injectedSB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *75injectedSB* »_
Billy, do you remember any more on this, looking to go this route pretty soon myself.


Yes, I was putting together budget built bottom end that consisted of an ABA 236mm block and 159mm rods but with a stock 95.5mm diesel crank. The piston pin was going to be offset, if I had continued any remaining difference would be compensated by decking the block (it would have been very minimal).

It’s not that bad of a build, I had $280 into everything that I needed for the bottom end, and decking the block and offsetting the rod bushing is pretty inexpensive all things considered. It saved me $675 that would have been spent on custom pistons and at the same time gain some displacement by using the crank. The power from the 20v was the top end and I wanted the bare minimum done to the bottom for this to run. Retaining a decent compression ratio was part of all this as well.
This was back in 2005 and the pricing and availability of parts has changed. I hope that info helps some...



_Modified by billyVR6 at 12:40 PM 12-1-2009_


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## 75injectedSB (Feb 6, 2006)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (billyVR6)*

That helps a ton, I will start looking in on that route.


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## TMTuned99.5Golf (Jan 27, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (75injectedSB)*

Don't forget that when you use the 20v head, your head CC is at least 42cc where as the 8v head is 32 at most. If you just bolted it on, you compression would be below 9:1 if I remember right.
I was going to do this a year ago but currently that AWD head is the centerpiece to my coffee table


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (75injectedSB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *75injectedSB* »_
Been looking into this more. The 30v's use a 154mm rod, so your 10mm longer than 1.8t(144mm)and 5mm shorter than an ABA(159mm)rod. You could use these pistons in an ABA block and have it decked to bring up compression. Billy, do you remember any more on this, looking to go this route pretty soon myself. 
yes but the deck height is different from VW engines. The correct ones for an ABA are the 2.8 ones ( they have ~30 mm compression height and 21 mm pins), the 3.0 ones are ~28 mm so would be better with a TDi crank or in a 220 mm block.


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## darks_aint (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (bunicula)*

There is an actual 20v engine that was built by the factory it came in the '05 passat and new beetle its letters are ALT but its uber rare... i can't even get parts for it as i'm building a NA 20v for my mk1 my self but i am making head way


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## darks_aint (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (fourthchirpin)*

where did u get a double pulley setup like that i wud like to get one like that


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## darks_aint (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (fourthchirpin)*

gimme a link on how to acquire that head plz
all left to do is attach a Toyota/Nissan rb32 vvt unit on2 the intake sprocket


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

If you run big cams variable valve timing is usually removed. Almost all big cam or all motor honda guys remove vtec. ( same with toyota and whatnot )
Steve-


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## lefty2foot (Jan 20, 2010)

What about the the intake CARB/ FI


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: (BSD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BSD* »_If you run big cams variable valve timing is usually removed. Almost all big cam or all motor honda guys remove vtec. ( same with toyota and whatnot )
Steve-

thats not true, hardly any of the high hp na honda boys disable vtec some of them do but that more has to do with rocker limitations than disadvantages of vtec. Regardless thats a completely different ballgame than vvt and not to be applied here.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_
thats not true, hardly any of the high hp na honda boys disable vtec some of them do but that more has to do with rocker limitations than disadvantages of vtec. Regardless thats a completely different ballgame than vvt and not to be applied here. 

I disagree with the honda part, considering some of the fastest N/A ones don't even run vtec, but I guess the VVT system is different. My understanding was with wilder cams overlap was harder to compenate. 
Steve-


_Modified by BSD at 9:17 PM 1-19-2010_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (darks_aint)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darks_aint* »_There is an actual 20v engine that was built by the factory it came in the '05 passat and new beetle its letters are ALT but its uber rare... i can't even get parts for it as i'm building a NA 20v for my mk1 my self but i am making head way 

It never came in the new Beetle and I am not showing any landing in Jamaica through our dealership network. Probably imported from UK through dovercourt but even then yes it is uber rare.
Audi/VW built 1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 20V motors. I have an ITB kit for sale complete if anyone is interested.


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## bunicula (Sep 9, 2001)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (Issam Abed)*

just wanted to pop in and say thanks for all the great info in this thread.. unfortunatly my plans for this motor have been put on hold as the workspace i had planned on using fell through... i would love to see this thread continue for anyone else who is looking for info and for myself later down the line.. thanks again http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## darks_aint (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (fourthchirpin)*

yow how much 4 a head like that .... i'm building a 2.0 aba 20v for my mk1 the head loook sweeeeeet i 'll be the envy in the mk1 community here


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

Can i use the 30v pistons in my aeg?


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (sauron18)*

Nope, wrong stroke.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Nope, wrong stroke.
huh?, the 3.0 is the same stroke but is the wrong compression height and that is what matters. the 2.8 pistons compression height is ~ 1 mm too much so use the higher compression or shave them slightly. You also need to ream the rod bushings out to 21 mm.


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

The 3.0 v6 are 82.5 and 92.8 stroke the only thing is the rods are bigger.
Is better for me to get 2.0 20v pistons for 550bucks or get the 3.0 v6 30v and adapt them? 


_Modified by sauron18 at 10:54 PM 2-19-2010_


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (sauron18)*

the 3,0 will sit lower and give lower compression, the 2,8s will be ~1 mm higher and give close to 12:1 compression.


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

I need lower cr like 10


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (sauron18)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sauron18* »_I need lower cr like 10
 shave some off the 2,8s or use the 3,0s and a TDi crank.


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

Would be cheaper for me to do that instead of getting 2.0 20v pistons? What is the bore and stroke of the 2.8? i think i would get the 3.0 and let me see about the tdi crank...wich one the 1.9?


_Modified by sauron18 at 11:36 AM 2-20-2010_


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (sauron18)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sauron18* »_Would be cheaper for me to do that instead of getting 2.0 20v pistons? What is the bore and stroke of the 2.8? i think i would get the 3.0 and let me see about the tdi crank...wich one the 1.9?

 82,5 X 86,4. yes


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

The 2.0 is 82.5 x 92.8 and the pistons of the 3.0 are the same....so i need to put the tdi crank tu use those pistons? is there anyone with the tdi crank? i have searched but maybe not right.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (sauron18)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sauron18* »_The 2.0 is 82.5 x 92.8 and the pistons of the 3.0 are the same....so i need to put the tdi crank tu use those pistons? is there anyone with the tdi crank? i have searched but maybe not right.
 yes because the V-6 uses 154 mm rods IIRC and has a different deck height so that puts the compression height of the 3,0 pistons at ~28 mm.


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think i will get piston for 1.8t bored to 2.0, don´t want to complicate things maybe later on i will think about the tdi crank...I will be happy with my 2.0 20v.
If i do the head first i would need to buy pistons later on for the TDI crank right?


_Modified by sauron18 at 9:35 AM 2-21-2010_


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## lefty2foot (Jan 20, 2010)

has anyone seen a single carb on the 20V.
Thinking about upgrading the mini stock race car.
You can see the rules at
evergreenspeedway.com


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## darks_aint (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (Issam Abed)*

would like to know bout the vvt tensioner in the 20vw///how it works .....wud like to put one in my aeb head....as to how i understand it ..... it retards the cams at start up and idleand then goes normal while driving....sinc i'm using stand alone i wud like to retard the cam at hi revs say starting at 4000rpms wht u think


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (darks_aint)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darks_aint* »_would like to know bout the vvt tensioner in the 20vw///how it works .....wud like to put one in my aeb head....as to how i understand it ..... it retards the cams at start up and idleand then goes normal while driving....sinc i'm using stand alone i wud like to retard the cam at hi revs say starting at 4000rpms wht u think 

Fellow islander
I do not mean to be harsh on you but it seems to me you are trying to reinvent the wheel with all of these posts.
You will not gain any horsepower trying to play with the VVT solenoid of the 1.8T cylinder head.This is not a 4A-GE.
Tell me your power goals and budget and I will gladly help.


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## girdwood (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (Issam Abed)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Keep the info coming guys, I'm tryin to learn what I can about possible output from an N/A 20v with ITBs... thinking I might do this instead of boost in the Mk1


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## Turbo Benzina! (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Chris,
the issue with importing the ALT motor is :
1. They are expensive to source
*2. The only useful part to most of us is the head*
3. freight associated with it.
Before the engine even touches your door stop you are looking @ $3000 USD.
For $3000 USD you can build a pretty serious cylinder head. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Sorry for bringing up an old topic but could you please explain why is that? How big are the differences between the ALT head and e.g. an AEB cylinder head? Is there any advantages of going with an ALT head, both in stock form and with some head work?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: looking for some info on NA 20v's (Yugoslavia!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yugoslavia!* »_
Sorry for bringing up an old topic but could you please explain why is that? How big are the differences between the ALT head and e.g. an AEB cylinder head? Is there any advantages of going with an ALT head, both in stock form and with some head work?

ALT head has an integrated camshaft girdle compared to the AEB which has a multiple camshaft cap set up.
ALT intake port dimensions are the same as an AEB so I do not see how there would be any gain going 1 over the other.


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## justvwpower (Jul 8, 2007)

*n/a 20 valve in mk1*

i looking for anything close to 200 hp ...but my main problem is that my country has gone to e-10 BLEND FUEL even the 90 octane n e help can/and will be appreciated .....


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## justvwpower (Jul 8, 2007)

*to ISSAM*

SORRY BOUT THE TENDENCY TO BE RICED but there is a large influence of hondas'& toys in ja and we sometime for get that it a vw engine we are dealing with but i'm planning on running cams also jus thought i cud get a li'l more on the top with running the tensioner in reverse lol  
thanks for bringing me back to reality


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## justvwpower (Jul 8, 2007)

seems like this thread is abandoned .... n e way ...i need a 20v N/A exhaust manifold .... any help plz ... sum1 ???:sly:


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## bvillelounge (Jan 28, 2003)

I have one.


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## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

vwpat said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *sauron18* »_I need lower cr like 10
> shave some off the 2,8s or use the 3,0s and a TDi crank.


I might do this this year. I think i will go with the 3.0 v6 pistons and put in a tdi crank because i would like to go n/a. Where i can get this pistons?

But i'm confused right now, because i have a AEG and in the other post of this conversion someone said " the AEG block would be a poor choice for this as it has no oils squirters. the AZG would be a better go at it. then again, the AEG would not need piston skirt notching to clear the squirters becasue they are not there.."

Also i found a post saying that engines with a stroker dosen't have good longetivity? is that true? because i will use my car for daily driver for now.


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## justvwpower (Jul 8, 2007)

sauron18 said:


> I might do this this year. I think i will go with the 3.0 v6 pistons and put in a tdi crank because i would like to go n/a. Where i can get this pistons?
> 
> But i'm confused right now, because i have a AEG and in the other post of this conversion someone said " the AEG block would be a poor choice for this as it has no oils squirters. the AZG would be a better go at it. then again, the AEG would not need piston skirt notching to clear the squirters becasue they are not there.."
> 
> Also i found a post saying that engines with a stroker dosen't have good longetivity? is that true? because i will use my car for daily driver for now.


 the confusion thickens .....wha i have done was use the original old school ABA block ... with rebushed 9a pistons .....wich kinda in the ballpark of around 11.5 :1 ...but BILDON has overbored 20v pistons ...might go with that ....opcorn:


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Wossner makes high comp 20v na pistons. Takes the guess work out.


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