# Camshaft timing - NEED HELP!!!



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Ok so I have read all the threads on here and found some really good information on how to set both the timing belt "timing" and the cam chain "timing". However I can't for the life of me figure out the link that most people use, the Volkswagen Workshop one. 

I understand that the intake and exhaust cams must be set so that cylinder 4 intake and exhaust cams have the "indent" directly across from each other. But how do I tell that the chain is correctly timed at this point? Is there any indicators on the chain that I can use in correlation with the sprockets? I can't see anything between the camshaft adjuster and the "divided" valve cover to see any marks on the sprocket. Also can't really see any marks on the intake cam sprocket to use, nor do I have any colored links on my chain like most people say there is.

Secondly what order to I set the timing in. Should I set the crank timing (timing belt) first, and then align the cams, or should I set the cams first and THEN do the timing belt. 

I'm so confused...


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Additional information...

Getting a CMP/Speed Sensor implausible code on my VCDS, which is the reason I'm checking this out.

Trying to make sure that the either the timing belt, or the timing chain didn't skip a tooth. That's why I need to know exactly how to determine this. 

I'm hoping that with the timing belt lined up with the mark on the upper housing, the timing chain should be lined up so that cylinder 4 has the indents facing each other. Am I wrong in this assumption?


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

Somebody else will want to verify this but I don't think the cam chain side matters as long as the cam indentations line up and the timing belt is aligned. 

I recently change my cam chain and I just lined up the cams for the tool to fit on and took the chain off. No problem.


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

Even Bentley was confusing on this job. I tok a risk and just wung it since it find seen like something many people ha done before. It was hard to find any info on it. 

My chain didnt have any markings on it either and I couldn't see anything on the chain side that indicated correct timing. 

Did you use the cam looking tool?

It was my assumption that once the cam indentations were facing each other, you would be at tdc and would install the locking tool. It didnt seem like there was enough slack in the new chain for it to jump a tooth so it didn't seem to matter as long a the cams didnt move at all.


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Thanks for the help. I actually found another thread on here as well that said the same thing. As long as cylinder 4 cam indents are timed right, and the timing BELT is TDC set properly, then all should be well. 

Interesting though because here's what happened...

At first I noticed a ticking sound on the drivers side top of the engine. Figured it was my chain tensioner or chain but I checked my HPFP first. Noticed a smell of gas in my oil so I know my internal seal on my HPFP is done. Ordered a new one of those and a new thrust sensor as well. Was throwing codes of "Low Fuel Pressure Regulation" or something along those lines. I ended up putting in a new cam follower and figured it would be ok until my new pump arrived. Well I drove it one more time and had a huge fuel cut or something that actually caused the car to shut off. It started right back up, so I drove it home and checked and the brand new cam follower was already cracked and I had a HELL of a time getting it out of the hole. The spring retainer actually failed (Autotech kit) and I'm sure jammed the hell out of the cam follower/HPFP plunger, causing the carnage which I now am dealing with. 

This is when I decided to park it and leave it. This is when it threw the "CMP/Speed Sensor - Implausible" fault.

At this point I took of the valve cover and the timing chain cover. As far as I can see there is zero physical damage to any of the valves, springs, or rockers/lifters. Also my intake cam lobe doesn't look too scored. On top of that my timing chain seems perfectly fine. It had plenty of oil on it so I know it's getting lubed and it's also still very tight and the tensioner seems to be fine.

I'm tired as heck and it's 6:30am here now so I'm going to get some sleep. When I get up I'll go ahead and start on getting to the crank bolt and checking the timing. 

The only thing I can think is that when the cam follower seized inside the hole, the intake cam some how skipped a tooth on the timing chain and so the intake cam is off time by a tooth. Either that or the actually timing belt skipped a tooth and it's off by one. 

We shall see I suppose...


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Tutti57 said:


> Did you use the cam looking tool?
> 
> It was my assumption that once the cam indentations were facing each other, you would be at tdc and would install the locking tool. It didnt seem like there was enough slack in the new chain for it to jump a tooth so it didn't seem to matter as long a the cams didnt move at all.


I don't have the tool yet but I will get it.

Question is, if the timing is ALREADY off between the two cams will the tool actually allow me to fix this and get it timed back to the proper specs for the cams? 

If I know the cams are properly timed then I can also time my crank pulley/timing belt so I know BOTH would be correct.


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

Good point. If they are off now, the tool won't help. It will just keep them one tooth off. 

If it was off a tooth I think it would run pretty poorly and you'd probably run the risk of piston/valve interference. 

Do you have a boost gauge where you can check vacuum a idle? Did you notice if it was low?

I guess I would check the marks on the timing belt an see if when they are lined up, the intake cam indentations are pointing at each other. 

It may be really close though and you lowly wouldn't be able to tell if it was one tooth off. 

Lets see if someone else has another way to check timing maybe using Vcds somehow.


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Exactly what I was worried about. I have a feeling it may be out of time already, which is what I need to fix. 

Surely there HAS to be some way to time the cams. There's no way it can't be done.


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

Right. There has to be a way to do it otherwise you would never be able to replace the head. 

Let me check the Bentley on the head replacement procedure to see if its mentioned.


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

It basically says to line up the cam indentations and the timing marks on the belt. After thinking about it, maybe if all of this lines up and the tool fits onto the cams, it wont allow it to be off a tooth. 

Basically if you can get the tool on and the belt lines up, you're good. 

That's what in thinking at least. 

I don't see anything else here that says there's another way to do it.


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

I think you're absolutely right. 

If you think about it, the cam tool will hold the number 4 cylinder at the firing position, and not allow it to move. You can then align your crank pulley to the proper timing (TDC). At that point your camshafts will be in the proper position (firing cylinder 4) in correlation to the TDC on the crank. 

Simple enough when I think about it. I was just exhausted yesterday and needed a break to think properly.


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

In the end though, I still don't get what caused this whole mess with the camshafts. Like I said, tensioner and chain look fine. I don't understand what could have caused it to throw the code saying that the camshaft sensor/speed sensor are out of whack.


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

Ok so I just verified the timing is spot on for the crank to exhaust cam. Used the timing mark on the cranks pulley and the lower belt cover as well the upper belt cover and exhaust cam belt sprocket.

Also that cams seem to be very much in time too. The indents both face inwards after rotating the crank 720 degrees. I can even very that the space between the cam lobe machine marks are the exact same distance to the little arrows on the cam cover.

So as far as I can tell there is no physical problem with the timing either on the belt or the chain. So now I'm really at a loss. I really am starting to think it's the camshaft position sensor so I will order a new one of the those and try that.

The only thing I can see is that there is slack on the bottom of the camshaft chain after rotating the crank by hand. I'm assuming this is because the tensioner works off oil pressure which obviously I have none now. You can see that the tensioner has loosened up a bit because of this. If it's not the camshaft position sensor, then my next move is to replace the camshaft chain and the tensioner which isn't cheap...


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

Mine had some strange slack too but I didn't check it on the new one. 

I was able to source a new aftermarket chain and tensioner for $100. Oem was going to be about $220 iirc. 

You will need that special socket to get them out though and at least some way of securing the cams if you don't get the lock tool.


----------



## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Implausible signal is not a timing performance fault. It's something with the sensor signal. A "performance" fault with the camshaft sensor would be timing related. 

As for how to get the cams at TDC and in time 100%. The tool is the only way. It is designed so that it ONLY fits in place when the cams are at TDC and the right angles. As for the chain, it just goes in place once the cams are timed properly. There are really no marks on the cams like a 1.8t or anything. There can be some slack on the bottom side of the tensioner. When the engine is fired up and gets oil pressure, it will pull the slack out using the exhaust cam adjuster/phaser. 

But if you are having a ticking noise when the engine is running, it's very likely that the chain tensioner is beginning to get weak. It's not a cheap repair, but it's a LOT cheaper than it failing!!! I have a Passat here at work right now that the guy just ignored the irritating ticking noise. Now the chain link has torn in half, the tensioner is destroyed and and it's likely getting a new engine due to internal damage to the valvetrain. So be very causious around the FSI engine.......it has no mercy! lol
-J. Hines


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

That's for clarifying all of this. Love when knowledgable techs shed light on the questionable.


----------



## darcness (Aug 8, 2008)

jhines_06gli said:


> Implausible signal is not a timing performance fault. It's something with the sensor signal. A "performance" fault with the camshaft sensor would be timing related.
> 
> As for how to get the cams at TDC and in time 100%. The tool is the only way. It is designed so that it ONLY fits in place when the cams are at TDC and the right angles. As for the chain, it just goes in place once the cams are timed properly. There are really no marks on the cams like a 1.8t or anything. There can be some slack on the bottom side of the tensioner. When the engine is fired up and gets oil pressure, it will pull the slack out using the exhaust cam adjuster/phaser.
> 
> ...


First of all let me say THANK YOU so much for answering and clarifying this. That's such good news. Of all the places I posted (4 different forums) you're the only one who gave me this information and trust me it's greatly appreciated. 

I already removed the sensor so I'm going to replace that tomorrow when I grab one from the dealer. 

Today I put the valve cover back on with a new gasket and silicone. Also put the cam chain cover back on with a tiny bit of silicone on it because I saw the old one had a small bead around it. I made my BSH catch can plate into a block off plate by making a channel between the two bungs since my catch can only ends up freezing up in the winter anyways and I'm sure that's what blew out my valve cover gasket. I put the coil packs back in and got all the brackets/wiring/hoses secure on the drivers side. 

Tomorrow my new fuel pump comes in and I'm going to grab a new timing belt from the dealer as well. 

Hopefully I will have it all buttoned up by tomorrow so I can scan it again and make sure I've got everything straightened out.


----------

