# Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Metals, viscosity TBN, and TAN came in about where one would expect based on previous runs. Flashpoint was lower on this run than on the others. Use was probably 50% highway with the last 1000 miles or so nearly all highway. First 2700 miles was mostly city (80%).
I'm surprised it stayed a 40 weight with the long OCI (for this engine). So far, the redline 5W40 runs were the only ones that have stayed in grade of the many 40 weight UOAs we have for this engine.
Note the shear rate in the first 2700 miles (12% loss from virgin) of this run vs. the last nearly 5000 miles (13% total loss from virgin) of this run. I was not expecting that. Possible reasons could be the change from 80% city driving but also I rerouted my pcv bypass routing to increase the amount of vacuum pulling crankcase gasses out of the valve cover into the exhaust. That was at around 3000 mile mark or so. Those shear rates are very low. We typically see 15-25% shear on 502 oils even on 3k runs or lots of highway.
Iron was 4.6 ppm/100 miles at 21k miles on engine, which is low.
Currently running 4 qts redline 5w30 + 1 quart redline 10w40. This lower viscosity mix makes more engine noise at idle. Comments welcome.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (saaber2)*

i like how you did 2 analyses per fill.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_i like how you did 2 analyses per fill.

Ha ha I call it overkill sampling! : ) Actually I needed to sample that often to see what changes if any the pcv bypass was having on the oil. Really used oil analysis frequency just depends on what questions you are trying to answer. In this case I was trying to evaluate the bypass but also trying to find the best oil for this engine also. Later if I try some other oils this early trending will help me tell if there is actually a difference. It is interesting to see the shear rates at 1/2 run vs. full run. I may continue mid-run sampling just for that, but really it is overkill.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (saaber2)*

It's great info!
A few questions: Which trends tell you how your bypass is performing? 
Did you run the dealership Castrol on that first 5000mi run? 
How about your break-in technique?


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

From all the UOAs out there... This redline really can't be beat. Considering that it is less expensive than the Motul 300V and other like oils, I might just move in this direction. 
Iron / miles def popped up a little there towards the end relative to your other changes, but it's still on the low side of the trend.
I think it's going to be hard to pick out any improvements from the bypass in the UOAs... Don't think our analysis and sampling measures such minute oil quality variations. The biggest improvement of the bypass will always be carbon accumulation on the intake valves...


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_I think it's going to be hard to pick out any improvements from the bypass in the UOAs... Don't think our analysis and sampling measures such minute oil quality variations. The biggest improvement of the bypass will always be carbon accumulation on the intake valves... 

That's correct. The UOAs can show you if the bypass is causing a problem, such as building up acids at an abnormal rate, but one wouldn't expect any improvements over the stock pcv setup in terms of oil condition. In other words, the bypass is to eliminate valve deposits, not to improve oil life/condition. I used the UOAs to verify that the bypass is not decreasing oil life/condition vs. stock.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_Did you run the dealership Castrol on that first 5000mi run? 
How about your break-in technique?

I believe the factory fill is Fuchs Titan but it is difficult to tell exactly but that is the closest oil IMO and Fuchs is known as a very widely used factory fill oil.
We can be certain that the factory fill is not castrol 5w40 or GC. The reason is the lack of Magnesium. Both those formulas use gobs of cheap Mg and it's not there in the FF UOAs.
My break in was moderate to hard with lots of variability, engine breaking down hills, minimal WOT, no highway cruise at constant speed. If I were to do it again I would break in the car in harder (after proper warm up of course) based on everything I have seen.
VW marketing/printing has missed the mark by a wide margin when they printed the owners manuals for these cars IMO. 
1) It is abundantly clear that 10k is much to long to run a U.S. spec car for an oil change. 
2) It is also clear to me that run-of-the mill 502 oils are inadequate in terms of volatility, shear stability, and perhaps cam follower protection. 
3) It is less clear but to me I am leaning to the view that "easy break in" as recommended by the manual may not be the best break in method. Hard to say definitively but there is a lot of evidence that hard break in causes better ring sealing. That's a bit of a reach though. I'd say it is more of an impression.


_Modified by saaber2 at 10:49 AM 12-18-2009_


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_A few questions: Which trends tell you how your bypass is performing? 


Taken from an old post:
Got my oil test back today. The bypass appears to have no positive or negative affect on the oil. What this means to me is that there is probably adequate crankcase evacuation because there is no increase in Total Acid Number (TAN) in the oil. I will re-check at 5k miles.
The red bars below are the post-bypass run. The pink bars are the pre-bypass run. The blue bars are what I predicted a non-bypassed run would be based on % city driving. In other words, any red bars higher than the blue are better than expected. Any red bars higher than the pink are better than a same mileage run that had easier usage (except for TAN, where lower bars are better).


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
3) It is less clear but to me I am leaning to the view that "easy break in" as recommended by the manual may not be the best break in method. Hard to say definitively but there is a lot of evidence that hard break in causes better ring sealing. That's a bit of a reach though. I'd say it is more of an impression.



Easy break-in is the absolute worst possible thing you can do to a brand new, machined to fine tollerances, modern engine... If you conceptualize what is actually happening in a motor during the break in process (add these newly assembled virgin metal surfaces attempting to mate up with eachother), you really need to work at putting a motor through its paces. Everything needs to be stretched out and expanded and imperfections need to be smoothed. You can't accomplish this by babying the motor, you need to apply some force. 
But when I say force, you can't beat on the thing either. No full boost runs or banging off the redline until 600 miles or so... No rpms above 3k until the motor is fully warmed up (and just cause your temp gauges says its warm does not mean that the oil is actually warm). Need to constantly varry rpm and load... 
When you add in the fact that VW used relatively poor quality rings in these motors too, there is potential for disaster if you don't get them seated properly. Hence the overwhelming number of oil consumption horror stories floating around. You won't seat rings by driving 5 minutes at a time to the local packy or food store, you need to work at it...


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_
When you add in the fact that VW used relatively poor quality rings in these motors too, there is potential for disaster if you don't get them seated properly. Hence the overwhelming number of oil consumption horror stories floating around. You won't seat rings by driving 5 minutes at a time to the local packy or food store, you need to work at it... 

While I'm necessarily disagreeing with your statement, my experience with 2 different 2.0T's has been just the opposite. My wife's A4 2.0T was broken in pretty much just as you described, mostly short trips in the city, gentle throttle, and no compression braking...pretty much how she normally drives. That motor burns next to no oil with nearly 30k miles on it as long as I keep M1 or LubroMoly in it. It did consume 1/2 quart over 5k miles with Syntec. 
On the other hand, my GTI was broken in aggressively, though without beating on it. It consumed 1-2 quarts every 5k miles.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Dec 2009 Redline 5w40 UOA, 7600 miles, 2.0 FSI (bcze1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bcze1* »_While I'm necessarily disagreeing with your statement, my experience with 2 different 2.0T's has been just the opposite. My wife's A4 2.0T was broken in pretty much just as you described, mostly short trips in the city, gentle throttle, and no compression braking...pretty much how she normally drives. That motor burns next to no oil with nearly 30k miles on it as long as I keep M1 or LubroMoly in it. It did consume 1/2 quart over 5k miles with Syntec. 
On the other hand, my GTI was broken in aggressively, though without beating on it. It consumed 1-2 quarts every 5k miles.

Interesting info.! Could be that individual engine variances override consumer break in procedure. Or it could be that the primary break-in occurs well before we even get the cars. 
I bought my GTI with 12 miles on it and the MFD said over 11 hours of operation for those 12 miles. I wonder what that means? Was it run for many hours without moving? Was it left in "on" ignition setting but not running? Probably never know but one might speculate that these cars do a ton of idling before we get them. ?


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## gearshifter6 (Mar 18, 2007)

Glad to hear the PCV re-route to exhaust isn't causing any detrimental effects to the oil. What are your thoughts on German Castrol 0w30? I know that people say it's pretty thick for a 30 weight but I don't know how well that 30 weight would hold up due to the oil shearing that I've heard was common on the 2.0T engine. 
Out of all the motor oils out there, what made you go w/ redline vs. Motul, M1, etc.?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (gearshifter6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gearshifter6* »_Glad to hear the PCV re-route to exhaust isn't causing any detrimental effects to the oil. What are your thoughts on German Castrol 0w30? I know that people say it's pretty thick for a 30 weight but I don't know how well that 30 weight would hold up due to the oil shearing that I've heard was common on the 2.0T engine. 
Out of all the motor oils out there, what made you go w/ redline vs. Motul, M1, etc.?

German Castrol (GC) has shown good resistance to shear relative to other common 502 oils based on the 50+ UOAs we have for this engine. Motul has also shown well in terms of the 502 oils.
My reasons for using redline are best explained in this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4433118
Really most of those comments in that thread apply to any loaded ester-based oil. The problem is that very few oils use esters because they are so expensive. So feel free to insert "ester based oil with strong anti-wear additive pack" wherever it says "redline".
The esters really are in a different class. They do everything better (see linked thread above) but they are more expensive. For example of all the 40 weight oil UOAs we have, only the redline UOAs have stayed a 40 weight. All the others have sheared down to a 30 weight or in some cases a 20 weight. This engine is amazingly hard on oil and IMO it needs the most bulletproof oil you can find.

Also Terry Dyson's (ultra oil guru) quotes in the thread below should not be overlooked IMO. He does know his stuff. The thread is regarding using M1 0w40 in the 2.0FSI: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4671459
From that thread:
"reb03, the M1 0w40 should not be run longer than 1000 miles to be safe.. Audi and BMW know they are having problems but are marketing tied to certain LARGE oil company that sponsors BITOG thus they cannot speak out about it. "
"reb03, I have customers running BMW5w30, M1 0w40 all with the same effect, the wear control is good if we change the oil at 1000 mile intervals but the deposit formation from REAL volatility issues are slowly damaging the engines. I just worked a 07 335 Biturbo yesterday USING ASTM lab tests on the used oil and M1 0w40 went from VOA flash of 430+F to 280 F in 1150 miles, oil sheared to 12.1 cSt and fuel was at 1.99% by IR. Amsoil has not been tested in this engine yet. Because Amsoil is a traditional based PAO I predict similar results to the M1 0w40 which is still one of few M1 products that can perform reasonably well. "



_Modified by saaber2 at 9:08 PM 12-27-2009_


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## gearshifter6 (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for the reply! I'll switch over to Redline on my next oil change


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