# Open-Heart Surgery: Chronicles of BGP to CBTA and other various rants



## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

I'll try to keep this short and to the point and for those who want to read the ramblings and a bit more 'in-depth' postings, you can follow my build blog (link in my signature). 

In short: I picked up a used 2011 Jetta 2.5l CBTA longblock, harness and automatic transmission under 22k mi, for a steal. Didn't _need_ it, but the deal was there and I pounced. After just hitting 100k on my stock 2006 BGP motor, the fear has always been "when". With the purchase of the new(er) motor and reading a few in-depth posts on doing similar swaps, I feel somewhat confident I can get this done (hopefully inside 2 weekends :screwy. 

I'll be keeping a spreadsheet of parts I pick up along the way, as I know this will not be a simple direct swap as there is bound to be some sort of hang up, somewhere. 

Also came up on VCDS software this weekend so I should be getting that later this weekend, which will help aid any arising issues once the motor is installed (if any). 

A couple of pics: 









the new mule 

http://dr0pthehamm3r.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/168.jpg?w=510[img] 

[img]http://dr0pthehamm3r.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/169.jpg?w=510 
the other project going on with the car (body/exhaust parts, galore) 


A majority of the pictures and postings (and rants) will be listed in my build blog, in long form, here: 
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/ 




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Related Links and (very) Helpful How-To's: 


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=348476 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...2005.5-Jetta-CBUA-Replaces-BGP-It-Is-Possible 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...a-5-cylinder-2.5-motor-diagnosis-and-swap-DIY 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5536442-2005.5-to-2008-Engine-swap-The-results 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5314602-swapping-motors 
http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/11342-Rabbit-5-speed-Clutch-Pressure-plate-DIY 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5553021-Stock-2.5L-clutch-limit 
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/transmission-removal-vw-jetta.htm


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

*Hurdle #1*

Anyone know what size/grade bolts are used to attach the CBTA & tranny to the engine hoist chain? I called the dealership and they say they drop the motor from the bottom and have a special carriage for the motor to sit into, thus not needing a hoist. 

Wracking my brain and want this thing out of my truck 

---------------------- 

UPDATE: 

Not really an updated, but I have to head to VW tomorrow morning to talk to the shop foreman to see if he can give advice on how and where to hook this beast up and get it on the hoist and out of my truck. 

Really wish I was paying attention to where it was mounted when I picked it up, instead of getting the ratchet tie-downs together. :banghead:


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## Geo (Nov 14, 2000)

a bracket that will help is still on your old motor held on by two triple square bolts. The location for those bolts correspond the the shiny aluminum area where the two bolt holes are oriented vertically as shown in this picture near the top left of the head. 









The bracket on the old motor is black and has a loop near the two bolt holes. The bracket continues to the right, the length of the head, and sits in the loop that is found on the timing chain housing. 

NOTE** I've only used those points to move the engine alone. Anyone else have any experience with the engine and trans or have other suggestions?


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

Yeah! I stopped by the VW dealership and spoke with the shop foreman and he really helped me out. said the same exact point. I totlly spaced out on that (as my car was at my buddies house). But yes, it IS the thin looking piece of steel that has two bolts on the very top left of the head. It actually holds the connectors in place for the injectors and sits along side the fuel rail. 

3 days later, we got the motor out and on the ground inside of maybe 3 mins. Felt like such a n00b :banghead:. In any case, I picked up a Bentley manual from eBay so thats on its way as well. 

Now to start stockpiling the one-time use screw, clips, gaskets breakable parts and specialty tools (if any) and so on. Once I get all the necessary bits, it will be go time.


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## Geo (Nov 14, 2000)

is the oil cooler different between the auto vs manual trans cars? 

If so, I would imagine your old one would just swap over. 

anyhow, thanks for all the updates and pictures. I'm following along with your progress:beer:


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm honestly not sure. But I've been eye-f*cking the bluewater performance oil cooler (https://bwperformance.com/vintage/p...-performance-25l-street-series-oil-cooler-kit) 

I also plan on replacing all 4 mounts, but AFTER i get the motor in. Should save me $700+/- for incidentals and 'just in case' parts i might need for the swap. Thereafter I'll be looking into a tune, SRI, oil cooler and tune. Would love to find a exhaust header, but i REALLY dont want to dump more money into the car as I'm really supposed to be 'done' with parts and moving onto my next car.


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## rustlerdude (Aug 13, 2007)

Your new engine has a dual pressure oil pump. If you leave it disconnected (obviously, you have no connector on your old ecm) it will remain at the high pressure which is similar to your old motor. 

If you pick up a 2008 or newer intake manifold it will move your powerband higher. Low end torque will suffer a bit and move higher in the rev range but HP will increase. This is the main point when vw increased power from 150 hp to 170 and why the rev limiter on new 2.5's is 6300 vs 5800. Using your old manifold will bring the power back down. If you can source the newer exhaust manifold it uses individual header tubes and is thus better for removing exhaust gases.


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

Yeah, my only reason for using my stock intake manifold is simply to get the motor dialed in, and up and running. I just saw that IE finally released their new Intake manifold setup, so I'm likely going to purchase one but put it on AFTER the motor is installed and dialed in. I want to ensure everything is working as it should, before I stick any go fast bits in the heart or brain. I want to confirm stability and if anything is to not function correctly, right off the bat, then it will eliminate any second guessing on if its a go-fast bit or not.


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

*Quick, Pic-less Update*

Got my VagCom cable and Bentley manual in last Thursday. Hadnt had much time to play with it as I was heading to Vegas Thursday night.

Placed my pre-order for the IE intake manifold this morning.

Now I'm looking into clutches. I'm sure I _could_ manage with an OEM clutch replacement, but I was looking at what ECS had to offer (http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_V--2.5/Drivetrain/Clutch/ES2569771/). I'm sure there are other brands and selection to look at just the same, but ECS has become a point of reference for me.

I can honestly say I've never replaced a clutch or hard to pay for a clutch repair job in my car history. With that being said, I'm a little unaware of what clutch (or clutch kit) to buy or what I'll need for the clutch replacement, much less whats entailed in the replacement. I know I won't be pushing Turbo HP, but with the IE Intake Mani + tune, I should have a fair bit more than stock.

Thoughts?


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## Geo (Nov 14, 2000)

I don't have much experience with clutches either. When I swapped in the gti 02q 6 speed, I just ordered an oem style gti FSI clutch kit with a solid fly wheel made by Valeo. I didn't opt for a lightened flywheel and really like the solid flywheel compared to the oem dual mass flywheel. My clutch pedal feels similar to the way it did before but the feed back while trying to engage a gear is what I like.

PS: I specified gti FSI because it shares the same flywheel 6 bolt pattern with the 2.5L as opposed to the TSI that has 8 bolts.


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## mjb8482 (Mar 4, 2008)

My philosophy when I went turbo (edit: I know you aren't planning on going turbo) was not to replace it until it was broken. I knew I would eventually have to do it but I waited until it started slipping before going for a new one. Unfortunately, it only took about 1000 miles. 

It depends a lot on how many miles are on your car and how you drive it. Some guys are running stage 2 turbo kits with the stock clutch. I wasn't so lucky.

The install process is pretty lengthy if you've never done it before (like me), but the Bentley manual is your best friend. Took me and my wife (she's pretty awesome) 3 evenings to finish.

I went with a Clutchnet stage 2 rated at 325 lb-ft and a Four Seasons Tuning 14lb single mass flywheel. I have nothing bad to say about it. You might as well do a lighter flywheel while you're at it--for me it has made a big difference on how the car feels. 

I hope this helps!


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

Geo said:


> I don't have much experience with clutches either. When I swapped in the gti 02q 6 speed, I just ordered an oem style gti FSI clutch kit with a solid fly wheel made by Valeo. I didn't opt for a lightened flywheel and really like the solid flywheel compared to the oem dual mass flywheel. My clutch pedal feels similar to the way it did before but the feed back while trying to engage a gear is what I like.
> 
> PS: I specified gti FSI because it shares the same flywheel 6 bolt pattern with the 2.5L as opposed to the TSI that has 8 bolts.


good to know! I've been looking for specific 2.5l/5spd clutches. I found a bevy of different kinds, brands and such. A lot of them are gauged towards high horsepower/torque setups. This will be a simple daily driven car. No turbo in the future. MAYBE an exhaust header, but for now, very mild. I saw the Valeo setup listed on ECS's site. And after digging for a couple hours, I became a bit more familiar with what I'll need and what I should be spending.






mjb8482 said:


> My philosophy when I went turbo (edit: I know you aren't planning on going turbo) was not to replace it until it was broken. I knew I would eventually have to do it but I waited until it started slipping before going for a new one. Unfortunately, it only took about 1000 miles.
> 
> It depends a lot on how many miles are on your car and how you drive it. Some guys are running stage 2 turbo kits with the stock clutch. I wasn't so lucky.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I wanted to keep costs down during my swap, but being that I already have separate the transmission from the current engine, it will already make itself available. I just checked all the documents I got from the previous owner and it looks like the clutch I'm on now (stock replacement) has been in since 2006 and since has clocked up over 66,000 miles. Hindsight tells me, to pop for the extra couple hundred dollars and take care of it while its present.

I have never done a clutch job myself (or at all, for that matter), but I have a Bentley manual, a DIY (found in the above 'related links' area in post #1), and seen a few youtube videos to better understand the task at hand. Doesn't seem too hard, comparatively speaking.

I pinged the guys at Four Seasons Tuning to see what they recommended. I have my eye on their 2.5L Stage 1 Clutch kit but says it must be used in conjunction with their alloy flywheel. So while the clutch is only $180 shipped, the alloy flywheel is an added $390 

Currently, I've got my eyes on the SPEC Stage 1 Clutch Kit which I can pick up for about $415 shipped. So as of right now, I'm really leaning towards that.

Just got a couple checks in, so I will be picking up a few belts and some coolant for the swap. Going to pick the Service Departments brain to see what else I might need for the job as I'm really trying to make the swap as fast/smooth as possible with as little downtime as possible.


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## Geo (Nov 14, 2000)

flywheel bolts..AND DON"T LET THE ENGINE ROTATE BACKWARDS!!! unless you are doing the timing chain and want to see what happens


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

Geo said:


> flywheel bolts..AND DON"T LET THE ENGINE ROTATE BACKWARDS!!! unless you are doing the timing chain and want to see what happens


haha! yes, I can't recall which thread it was (I think PDJetta's swap) where the engine got cranked backwards. I read that and cringed.

I did a bit more digging and found that a SPEC might not be the best idea. Though the horror stories I did read were on high HP cars, having that off-chance of being the minority and having a new clutch go on me isnt an easy feeling to settle with.

I found a thread from a while back (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5553021-Stock-2.5L-clutch-limit) asking the OEM clutch limit. Oddly enough, in doing a random google search, I've found a user on vortex who is selling a NIB OEM Sachs clutch (pressure plate & clutch disc) http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6044055-FS-SACHS-CLUTCH-KIT-FOR-TDI-AND-2.5l-115-shipped. Though I'm going to get in contact with FourSeasonsTuning today to see about getting a billet steel flywheel 

Anyhow, I've made a list of things I need to get and will be flipping through my Bentley Manual this week to ensure I have all the parts I need prior to starting. So far I have:

- Clutch (pressure plate and clutch disc)
- Throwout bearing
- Clutch Alignment tool
- Serpentine belts
- G12 Coolant
- Transmission seal

Also considering picking up:
- New Coil-packs (mine are at 40k the CBTA's are at 22k. will check condition as I may hold off)
- New Alternator
- Lightweight Flywheel


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## mjb8482 (Mar 4, 2008)

Sounds like you're on the right track! I also had never done a clutch before, so you can definitely do it by yourself if you are mechanically inclined.

The throwout/release bearing typically comes with the clutch, (FST provided a Sachs bearing with mine) so verify that so you don't end up with an extra.

Another thing I suggest is blue Loctite for all the bolts you will be re-installing--just to make sure they stay nice and tight.

Also, make sure you tighten the hell out of your drive flange bolts (the bolts that hold the CV-Axle assembly to the transmission drive flanges) and then do it again just to be sure. I tightened them to the OEM spec and they backed out--not cool!

Good luck! Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

mjb8482 said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track! I also had never done a clutch before, so you can definitely do it by yourself if you are mechanically inclined.
> 
> The throwout/release bearing typically comes with the clutch, (FST provided a Sachs bearing with mine) so verify that so you don't end up with an extra.
> 
> ...



thanks for the support guys! I can turn a wrench here and there, but this is a huge undertaking. Each time I find a new thread that I find pertinent to the swap or the clutch, I add it to the top posts "related links" so as it is, there is quite a bevy of info to sift through.

Having done at least 2 CV boots (1 for my jetta, 1 for my wifes gti. both mkv) I'm familiar with the 12-point bolts that head into the transmission. Never checked to see if they've ever backed out though.


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

UUUUUUUUUUPDATE!

been running around getting part numbers in order and figuring out whats needed. Just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone whose been helpful thus far, as well as everyone who has taken the time to contribute and document their own experiences with relative jobs. Its been a lot to sift through but VERY insightful.



dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com said:


> All told the parts on order shouldn't be more than $450+/-. Thats only a touch more than I paid for the motor and transmission itself. The current parts list to get are as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As always, the long-form update is in the signature


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

UPDATE -- In Short:

- Exhaust off. Now resonator with turndown
- Car wheel dolly/skates
- FST stage 1 clutch kit with lightweight flywheel
- Eurojet exhaust header
- Parts ordered and confirmed
- Picked up extra sockets and wrenches
- Exhaust header studs
- Car Blanket
- Found digital camera. Charged and ready to document



Full details address in build blog. :wave:


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

*Finally Started*

Pics are up Way too late for me to be up. Sorry for being lazy, but theyre up.

http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/...o-go-and-a-short-time-to-get-there-07-20-013/

x_x


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

moar progress. moar pics. needz sleeps.

http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/who-censors-the-sensors-07-20-013/


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

A few pics



dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com said:


> snapped bolt in the head. :facepalm:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the full rub, found here: http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/22/how-i-spent-my-summer-vacation-07-21-013/


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

A few swapped parts and the difference in BGP and CBTA. Need some insight as to the new sensors found on the CBTA that arent on the BGP. I also plan on reusing the original 2006 wiring harness due to the newer harness having more sensors and pins (from what I've heard)




dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com said:


> Sensor that gets threaded in on the BGP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The full rundown:
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/...25-and-m12-the-bits-that-saved-vag-07-23-013/

Anyone have any insight as to how to approach the sensor debacle?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

so, the CBTA has 2 sensors where the bgp has none?

interesting... 
Could it be that the cbta has an OEM oil temp sensor...??


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

thygreyt said:


> so, the CBTA has 2 sensors where the bgp has none?
> *YES*
> 
> interesting...
> Could it be that the cbta has an OEM oil temp sensor...??


thats what im trying to figure out. the two 'new' sensors are are to the right of the oil filter housing on the CBTA. However on the BGP there are no bungs.


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

anyone?


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com said:


>


Trannys are out. Clutch awaiting to go in!
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/two-heavy-trannys-07-25-013/


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com said:


>


Transmission cleaned up. Clutch in!
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/in-the-clutch-no-seriously-07-25-013/


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

Someone's been a very busy boy!

Pt1: http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/...transmission-rows-a-viable-workout-07-27-013/

Pt2: http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/home-stretch-is-right-around-the-corner-07-27-013/

Pt3:http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/aint-nothin-to-it-but-to-do-it-07-28-013/


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

chipping away. only a little bit left.

http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/minor-progress-minor-holding-pattern-07-29-013/


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

*project motor swap is complete!!

part 1
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/minor-progress-minor-holding-pattern-07-29-013/

part 2
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/click-click-07-30-013/

part 3
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/a-shift-in-progress-07-31-013/

part 4 - the (almost) finale
http://dr0pthehamm3r.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/life-under-3000-rpms-08-01-013/*


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