# Most power out of a na 16v?



## mik3d (May 18, 2006)

Doing a total rebuild, wondering what kind of power can you get after a build from ground up and staying NA


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Same as stock. 

You'll have to provide a little more detail than that. What will be stock, what won't be stock. Fuel system, spark control, porting, lots of variables. 

I'm sure if you spend enough money, you can get 300hp out of one, NA.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

*good question*

I'm rebuilding my 16v after scaring my 1.8l cylinder wall; starting with a 2l 9a block bored to 83.5mm, a lightened balanced 92.8 crank, 83.5mm je pistons 10.8:1 c/r, resurfaced head with autotech cam set(not sure durations off hand,only 16v set they sell)titanium valve springs, new lifters, autotech tri header, high flow cat and 2.5in cat back exhaust(already installed), pelican lsd. Only thing im missing for a n/a is the L/B 95.5 crank, motor wise(autotech couldnt get the forged crank from germany,and they still advertise it?), except a 50mm intake manifold. What am I forgetting, and a big bore intake pipe(I have). I'm hoping to pull between 170hp-180hp. I wish I could find a 95.5 forged crank. Im sure these motors can pull 200hp easy with a crazy cam set up, I wanted my power throughout the rpms band. My build should be complete within a couple weeks, the motor is still being shipped to me from salvage.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Is that whp or at the crank? And this is on CIS-e? I have seen a chart for one CIS car in that range (actually above it), he had more compression I think, and a lot of tuning into the CIS-e. It can be done. I think the extra cc's will help, but the fairly mild street cams could hold you back some. And the smaller intake and lack of porting will not help either. Be sure to spend the money/time to get the IM shaft turned/balanced, it is worth the small expense.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2005)

Youngfonza said:


> I'm hoping to pull between 170hp-180hp. I wish I could find a forged crank. Im sure these motors can pull 200hp easy with a crazy cam set up,


With what you have listed, you wont hit those numbers to the wheels. If your running a 9a block, then you have a forged crank already. and believe me, there is nothing easy (or cheap) about making 200whp out of an NA 16v.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

Well, I would like to have 150+whp. And I was referring to a 95.5 forged crank. What mods could I do to the cis e system? I


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

I know how expensive n/a projects are, but the 16v/g60 swap was more. I have 4500 hundo invested.


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## bru-CTi (Sep 6, 2007)

ps2375 said:


> Be sure to spend the money/time to get the IM shaft turned/balanced, it is worth the small expense.


? seriously, what is that going to do? i heard that its not going to make a difference...

and when you say turned, you mean machined smaller?

thanks


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Having the center shaft section turned and made straight will reduce some vibrations and the motor will feel smoother. If you put the shaft on a lathe and turn it between the centers, you will see how much wobble there is cast into it. And for the $50-75 it'll cost at a shop, it is more than worth it.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

Acknowledged; TY for that tip. I think my bro with his drag rabbit had a similar problem with vibrations. sounds like time and money saver. Does anyone know who Techtonics uses for machining?I'm out in the NW(US).


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## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

i have a 2.0L 16v Fresh re-build, everything new ie (pistons,rods,rings,bearings,gaskets etc,etc)with 40mm twin webers carbs, 4-2-1 header 2 1/2" exhaust, light fly-wheel. and i got 183whp.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

how much did the carb set up cost?


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## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

Youngfonza said:


> how much did the carb set up cost?


i pieced mine together the manifold was 220. and the webers were 500.00 mounting brackets, fuel lines and all i would say less than 1000.00


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## bru-CTi (Sep 6, 2007)

ps2375 said:


> Having the center shaft section turned and made straight will reduce some vibrations and the motor will feel smoother. If you put the shaft on a lathe and turn it between the centers, you will see how much wobble there is cast into it. And for the $50-75 it'll cost at a shop, it is more than worth it.


wow, thanks for the tip! makes sense really:thumbup: while my motor is in, thats what i am going to have done for sure!


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## Pwagondraggin (Nov 20, 2009)

Youngfonza said:


> I'm rebuilding my 16v after scaring my 1.8l cylinder wall; starting with a 2l 9a block bored to 83.5mm, a lightened balanced 92.8 crank, 83.5mm je pistons 10.8:1 c/r, resurfaced head with autotech cam set(not sure durations off hand,only 16v set they sell)titanium valve springs, new lifters, autotech tri header, high flow cat and 2.5in cat back exhaust(already installed), pelican lsd. Only thing im missing for a n/a is the L/B 95.5 crank, motor wise(autotech couldnt get the forged crank from germany,and they still advertise it?), except a 50mm intake manifold. What am I forgetting, and a big bore intake pipe(I have). I'm hoping to pull between 170hp-180hp. I wish I could find a 95.5 forged crank. Im sure these motors can pull 200hp easy with a crazy cam set up, I wanted my power throughout the rpms band. My build should be complete within a couple weeks, the motor is still being shipped to me from salvage.


i'll be interested to see how this goes i was thinking something along the lines of this


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## Pwagondraggin (Nov 20, 2009)

but still curious about what kind of fuel system there would be running.


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## newtron63h (Aug 20, 2006)

check out eurospecsport.com quite a bit of vw/audi performance products including bottom end components. surprisingly decent prices too......billet 95.5mm cranks for 1300........hard to find that kinda price on a billet crank for anything. doesnt look like they have 95.5mm cranks in anything except billet though. they have 92.8mm OE forged though. 

just running some numbers here..........looks like 200hp at the crank is going to be pretty difficult while still keeping some street driveability and a normal persons budget. since HP is largely a function of RPM and these engines are relatively low displacement.........so sticking NA there are 2 ways to get high HP......big torque or high RPM(or some combination of both). 200hp @8000rpm also means 131ft/lbs of torque and i think its pretty unlikely that a basic to moderate build could get that much torque that high and to get [email protected] is going to require 150ft/lbs .......remember the US spec had 134hp around 5800rpm and 133ft/lbs at about 4500rpm. on mine(keep in mind its a 90 with about 150,000 miles never rebuilt 115hp and 121tq to the wheels(eurosport lower intake box, autotech tri-y street header, full custom exhaust.....and at the time of the pull i had no full throttle enrichment) the torque drops off pretty steadily after it peaks. 

so if you get a big cam that enables your engine to continue flowing air at 8000rpm then in reality you will hit your peak torque at somewhere in the 6k range(just a guess) and then it will start dropping off until you let out at 8000. 

mine dropped from 121ft/[email protected] to about 98ft/[email protected] so assuming that a built engine would keep a similar torque curve then it would have to peak at about 150ft/[email protected] to still be at [email protected] therefore 200hp. and im not sure thats gonna be a reasonable goal 

sorry to go nerdy on you guys..........i just think it puts things into perspective a bit better when you see the numbers and basic physics of what it takes to make power.

also to make power at that kinda rpm is going to require a decent amount of head work, porting, valve job, maybe bigger valves. 

and i just saw that you changed to wanting about 150hp......so all of this is kinda useless. but its still good information in case you decide to do a serious build later.


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## newtron63h (Aug 20, 2006)

really clean setup, really simplifies the engine bay. i just dont think i can stand to dump that beautiful intake manifold..........a good looking manifold is so rare these days. 

also i was wondering, whats the advantages or appeal to switching to carbs on these? i see it becoming more and more common.


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## Pwagondraggin (Nov 20, 2009)

gotta get the techtonics software, im runnin that with autotech cams. i don't really notice any torque drop it redlines at 6900 and gives a nice little sweet spot between 3000 and 4000. can run 91 octane and just picked up a set of raceland headers, its a pretty fun car to drive. not sure the exact numbers on it though.


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## Pwagondraggin (Nov 20, 2009)

as for intake manifold i'm tryin to get the euro spec one off a buddy, less room to grab plug wires but it looks saweet and i'm sure it would give a little improvement.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

*Pwagondraggin*

Well, I found myself a 95.5 forged crank used for about 300. So the build will be with a 95.5mm crank not lightened instead of a 92.8 lightened and balanced crank. So, I have a 92.8 crank in garage if anyone is curious. The motor came few days ago and is going to the shop for boring as soon as my pistons arrive again(sent the wrong set from autotech). The head will be ported and polished and I picked up 50mm intke that I plan on polishing myself. The project is coming along; now I'm currently reassembling my 020 tranny, just installed the pelican. I'm to the point of pressing on the gears. I never knew installing the races on bearing was so complicated, shimmies, yaw, pitch, etc... I have pics and if they come out nice, I will build a thread and dyno my car eventually and put up specs. Wish me luck people I'm gonna need in this tranny:what:


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## Sallad (Aug 29, 2004)

SpoolinJetta18T said:


> i have a 2.0L 16v Fresh re-build



That's some serious engine porn right there! Nice work.:thumbup:


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## vdubxcrew (Jul 25, 2004)

Heres my build. I'm hoping for around 180whp. I may not get it though until I get stand alone. But I can only hope.:

94 2-door Golf GL ABA 16v

OBD1 ABA block shaved 20thou w/ ABF pistons to acheive 11.5:1 comp
3" CAI pipe from front fender to TB
3" ported & polished ABF throttle body
ported & polished ABF 52mm intake manifold
ported & polished (worked!) 9a head w/ Supertech .5mm OS intake valves, HD valve springs
lightweight lifters
Schrick 276 cams
1.8t IAT sensor rewired to front fender
TT adjustable cam sprocket
lightened/balanced int shaft
ABF alternator set-up w/ aluminum alt and WP pullies
modified/shaved LW/UD crank pulley
TT tuning custom chip burned to my specs
deleted A/C, P/S, coolant reservoir, washer fluid reservoir, fan control module & alot more
direct wired 14" high CFM slim fan w/ low temp switch
Evans NPG+ coolant
Raceland stainless header
42DD test pipe
Eurosport 2.25 catback
BFI .5 mounts
4K 020 trans w/ Peloquin 80% shim kit
8lb flywheel w/ stock clutch and pressure plate
TT tuning short shift kit
Innovate LC-1 wideband

On top of that I have gutted most of the interior and am running lightweight wheels. If it doesn't come up with the 180whp estimate it should at least feel alot faster due to the gearing, weightloss and combined mods. It theoretically should be a 12 second car.


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

ps2375 said:


> Having the center shaft section turned and made straight will reduce some vibrations and the motor will feel smoother. If you put the shaft on a lathe and turn it between the centers, you will see how much wobble there is cast into it. And for the $50-75 it'll cost at a shop, it is more than worth it.


so true, its just amazing to watch one of these spin, even at slow speeds, the amount of "wobble" makes you wonder what was vw thinking.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

well heres my thread pwagon.. if you still pay attention to this thread. It's just about finished up at the machine shop. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4906191-2.1L-16v-87-gti&p=66719080#post66719080


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

VW used the IM shaft to drive the fuel pump years ago. Hence the lobe. In a modern motor, it isn't required so the lightening helps by balancing the shaft. I'd assume the instance of shattered IM bearings should go down. 

The lightening affect of having it machined does nothing for you. It's not part of a reciprocating mass.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

To whom said the G60/16V build was more costly, it's certainly not based on HP/$. 200whp NA 16v will cost you significantly more.... 


I'm shooting for 220+whp with my build. Probably 10k+ into my motor now. 


Build spec thus far: 

- 1.8L PL based block punched to 84mm (1915cc). 
- 12.5:1 Wiseco forged. 
- Knife edged/lightened/balanced 86.4mm crank (27lbs). 
- Pauter 144mm con rods. 
- Race ported BV "027" casting 1.8L head from Jarod @ SCCH (240+cfm intake/180+cfm exhast). 
- Full Supertech OS valvetrain including Ti retainers. 
- VWMS 300* copies (.522" lift). 
- Solid lifter. 
- Custom VW/Toyota 4AGE manifold ([email protected]). 
- 4AGE black top 48m ITB's. 
- Custom glass large volume airbox. 
- Balanced IM. 
- Windage tray. 
- MS standalone. 
- Walbro 255. 
- 4-1 TT race (modified). 
- 2.5" Jetex. 

Provided it doesn't blow up and Paul can get it tuned, it should go pretty good. Expecting it to spin 9k+ with peak numbers in the 8500-8700rpm range. Coupled with the 2H and 4.25r+p, it should get up and go pretty well.


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## Youngfonza (Jan 23, 2005)

*I like when sellers put "not in a hurry"... yes you are*

sounds like a nice build and I will assume you were talking to me. Overall I would assume with the upgraded lysom or bbm twin screw charger and air to water inter cooler, plus piping and bbm adapter kit, fuel man., and the needed low CR pistons it would be expensive. Plus I would have to uprgade everything that went in to the build, just my style. Couple that with the reliability issues of those motors, and I would choose n/a again. And S/c's are loud and always on,not to mention the variable power output in differing altitudes. 

I have a 92.8 crank for sale from my 9a block that fits the pl block?? And I have numerous other Pl block accessories + block and a downpipe If anyone wants get at me. 

$250 takes it, the 92.8 crank. 

I also have another 84.6 crank, $200 takes that OBO


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

No 92.8mm crank in a PL block without some grinding.... 

To build a G60/16v, I'd drop a aba box stock block in and bolt up the 16v head. Boost ready for ~$150 (minus IM and dizzy drive stuff) but it's pretty easy. 

Then it's just sourcing the G60 stuff, BBM or otherwise. I'll assure you, to make 200whp with a G60 is far cheaper (and easier). Motor requires no work to get there. 200whp NA..... Totally different game. 

Now if we're talking 300whp or even trying to get that poopy stain charger to 400whp (not sure it's possible), now your talking money. If it's not NA, I'd go turbo and call it a day. Same deal with the aba bottom end. Easy, cheap....


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## noface (Jan 5, 2006)

guy in my group put down 193 wit and aba counterflow 8v wit sds head work cam and built bottom end he spent around 2800 dollers.... its mostly in the head though and he tuned it himself shocked the **** outta me!.....im pretty sure 200 can be done 16v all motor just gotta know where to put the money.......


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## rattycaddy (Oct 5, 2004)

Fast929 said:


> To whom said the G60/16V build was more costly, it's certainly not based on HP/$. 200whp NA 16v will cost you significantly more....
> 
> 
> I'm shooting for 220+whp with my build. Probably 10k+ into my motor now.
> ...


 
Wow fast929, looks like we are building very similar set ups. I agree, I have put almost put $4500 into my head alone. Look forward to seeing the progress on a few of the builds in here. A few highlighted differences (although I am sure there is plenty you and I have left out): 
-9A 
-034 standalone 
-2.0l Race ported SCCH Head 
-TWM 48mm ITB's 
-298 cams 
-2 1/4 exhaust 
-Dry sump 

4k tranny 
pelequin diff 
quaiffe bolt kit 
cryo dipped gears 
.80 5th 
4.90vwms r+p 

I'm hoping for 215-225whp. Will also be using secondary injectors running water/meth.


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## rattycaddy (Oct 5, 2004)

Fast929 said:


> Provided it doesn't blow up and Paul can get it tuned, it should go pretty good. Expecting it to spin 9k+ with peak numbers in the 8500-8700rpm range. Coupled with the 2H and 4.25r+p, it should get up and go pretty well.


 
Oh yeah, I'm not sure if you know or not but your motor will not last long at all in that rpm range with a factory oil pump and windage tray.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

rattycaddy said:


> Oh yeah, I'm not sure if you know or not but your motor will not last long at all in that rpm range with a factory oil pump and windage tray.


I'm actually sizing my oil pump down (1.6 or 1.8L 8v) pump. Less initial volume but with the solids, I don't need the volume the 36mm gear pump puts down. Cavitation is the biggest concern and Collin suggested this as a way to make it work without going full dry sump.

Jarod also ran his motor on the 1.8L pump @ 8500+ for roughly the equiv of 10k miles. Not too bad.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

rattycaddy said:


> Wow fast929, looks like we are building very similar set ups. I agree, I have put almost put $4500 into my head alone. Look forward to seeing the progress on a few of the builds in here. A few highlighted differences (although I am sure there is plenty you and I have left out):
> -9A
> -034 standalone
> -2.0l Race ported SCCH Head
> ...



I know your pain! lol This head has been out 3 times, Jarod being the last. This head is big bucks. The biggest problem I have now is I can't swing these cams through. I just don't have enough valve lift available. Working on sorting some "custom" lower spring seats to pick up a smidgy more. As is, I'll need to replace those springs often.

I'm also planning on running water/meth but not sure how I'm going to do it. I think my plan is custom glass an airbox and use a std nozzel within the box. Probably use a vac switch for actuation. 

That 4.90r+p is going to be wicked! I can't wait to see how it all works out.


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## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

FINALLY some decent 16v motors coming through! Last good one was Lil' Bunny Foo Foo, it's good to see not everyone has moved on from the old 16v or slapped turbos on them.

That 4.90 isn't common, currently running a box with a 4.90/quaiffe/.85 5th and it's in my daily. 4.5k rpms doing 75!

Soon to have a better motor... I hope... setup a little different but shows promise. :beer:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Finally!!! 


Lol, I've been working on this project like 5yrs. But, it's getting close!!!


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## rattycaddy (Oct 5, 2004)

PintSized said:


> FINALLY some decent 16v motors coming through! Last good one was Lil' Bunny Foo Foo, it's good to see not everyone has moved on from the old 16v or slapped turbos on them.
> 
> That 4.90 isn't common, currently running a box with a 4.90/quaiffe/.85 5th and it's in my daily. 4.5k rpms doing 75!
> 
> Soon to have a better motor... I hope... setup a little different but shows promise. :beer:


I'm currently running my tranny with a stock 1.7 just so I could drive my rabbit around until the 16v is finished. The 1.7 feels pulls like a built jh because of the 490r+p 

45mph @ 3300roms. 

75mph @ 5400rpms


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## PintSized (Sep 27, 2005)

I had the trans for a couple years sitting in the corner of the garage, new job made it so I had to give up on my project car and get a daily. I couldn't take it, picked up a 91 gti and the first thing I did was drop in my trans - I love that thing! 

Previous owner has the car currently on digiII (suck...) but hopefully here in a couple months will be on EFI technologies SEM w/ a built ABA and a SCCH 16v head running VWMS copy 288s on a short runner with velocity stacks. I can't wait, been putting this together for 6 years or so now.....

:beer:


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

Youngfonza said:


> Well, I would like to have 150+whp. And I was referring to a 95.5 forged crank. What mods could I do to the cis e system? I


 I made 138whp on a 1.8 16v with cbr 900rr carbs, decked head with 3 angle valve job, autotech street cams, eurosport header, and a tt borla exhaust, no cat. stock block with 140k miles. 

I would hope a 2.0 block would bump it up the 12whp needed for 150whp. however I am going to break 150 with a little work (better valve springs, hooking up the throttle switches, playing with the cam timing) looking to redyno in april. 

Stock vs current 
http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac228/yeayeayea1/CBR 900 Carbs/vw1816vstockvsmodifieddyno.jpg 

the actual dyno graph.


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## Sallad (Aug 29, 2004)

^^What are you running for management?


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

cbr 900 rr carbs, stage 3 main jets.


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## Jones84 (Sep 6, 2007)

I Just Finished my 2.0 16v build a few months ago. Let me tell you i have over 7k in to my N/A motor. I did everything i could to it. JE pistons, IE rods, coated bearings, 1.5mm over bore, 12.1.1 comp. Autotech cams, balanced crank, All arp, full P&P 1.8 head. Header, custom 2.5" open exhaust, MS 3.57 ECU, 300cc injectors,and on and on and on. I could go for ever. I had it dynoed at about 50mil so not yet full broke in. It hit 198whp at the wheels. I backed it of a Little and set it at 185whp just tell i get it all broke in and go throw my oil change. then i will be pushing it up to i hope 200+whp. 

My goal with this build was 200whp and i made it. so i am happy. If you have unlimited $$$ I am sure you could get more out of a 9A not to sure about 300whp but more than 200whp yes. Also this is not my DD as i lots all street ability and fuel mileage. I have a 10g fuel cell and it wont go far on that. 

Good luck with your build, i hope you get the HP you want out of it....


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)




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## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Jump to the 4:02 minute mark...
A lot of people claim numbers, I can happily provide proof !
Measured HP at the wheels...
175 ft-lbs is not too bad either...
Mustang dyno last calibrated April 2011 (new)

2116cc 16v
Wossner 84.00 pistons (14:1 compression)
95.5 lightened TD crank (-17.4lbs)
lightened Int. shaft
Lightened flywheel (8lbs)
lightened 144mm con rods
ABA block 
Schrick 276's
HD springs / Ti retainers
Big valve kit (+2 intake +0.5 exhaust)
Lightweight lifters
Mild work on head
Weber 45's
Megajolt with EDIS4 ignition
TT race headers & 2-1/4 exhaust
Running VP C12 fuel


Non HP related goodies:
All ARP all over
Wavetrac diff with modified 2H tranny 
Etc, too much to list...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GBvajInBJ0


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