# What's all the fuss cause of no manual??



## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

Just saw a FB thread of the S3 article by Road & Track. After looking at the comments, I saw things like "no manual, no thanks" and "BS, no manual". 

Was I the only one that was pissed that all US TT-RS where manual only? Euro spec RS did 0-60 in 2.7 sec (same as veyron).
Manual TT-RS did it in 4.4 sec.... Do that math people.

The "automatic" S3 is a manual without the 3rd pedal. If you want you can bounce off the limiter in every gear until you actually hit the paddle to shift up.

I just want to know why ppl are so mad that this car is not coming to the US with a manual trans, when yet the manual will be slower against an S-tronic?


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> Euro spec RS did 0-60 in 2.7 sec



citationneeded.jpg


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## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> Just saw a FB thread of the S3 article by Road & Track. After looking at the comments, I saw things like "no manual, no thanks" and "BS, no manual".
> 
> Was I the only one that was pissed that all US TT-RS where manual only? Euro spec RS did 0-60 in 2.7 sec (same as veyron).
> Manual TT-RS did it in 4.4 sec.... Do that math people.
> ...


Lol, wut? I would respond but somehow I don't think it matters. Veyron launches for the win.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AnadTd_nLjE


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AnadTd_nLjE
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'll take, "YouTube video descriptions that clearly state the Audi is modified" for $400 please, Alex.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

Just software... Clearly states 430hp. Still leaves the veyron the first 60 feet


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

You guys just aren't getting my point... People are complaining that the new S3 isn't available in manual. Why complain? I don't see any Nissan GTR, 911 PDK or 458 owners complaining. They way technology is set up, it's just better to have a paddle shifted car than a manually shifted 3 pedal car. 


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## 2.0TurboA3 (Dec 21, 2001)

I have driven a manual for almost two decades, I was one that complained it wasn't a manual... until I drove it. Three weeks later, I'm a convert. Ymmv


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## m3cosmos (Apr 28, 2011)

I complained quite a bit about my previously owned 2009 and 2013 GTR. The auto is just boring and fast does not mean fun to drive. I had a 911 turbo and it was difficult to catch up with the car since after the launch you immediately shift into 2nd and the power made the manual feel less enjoyable. On the track the twin clutch auto is the way to go but on the street a manual is a joy to drive if you don't have traffic. I skipped the S3 and traded my CLA45 for my F80 M3 because I was able to get a manual.


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## IHIERBal (Sep 26, 2014)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> You guys just aren't getting my point... People are complaining that the new S3 isn't available in manual. Why complain? I don't see any Nissan GTR, 911 PDK or 458 owners complaining. They way technology is set up, it's just better to have a paddle shifted car than a manually shifted 3 pedal car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do make a good point about people never complaining about the GTR. I just picked up my S3 and I personally don't have a problem with the DSG trans. My past 8 cars have all been stick shift. Can't say I'm missing it too much. I know it's more fun to be able to slam it into gear and feel more connected to the car. But driving this car feels just as good in a different way.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

I've owned manuals all my life too, plus I commute 80 round trip to manhattan, NY (90% of the time in traffic) and I don't complain about having a manual.... It's just like IHOERBal said, after driving it it simply feels right. 




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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> You guys just aren't getting my point... People are complaining that the new S3 isn't available in manual. Why complain? I don't see any Nissan GTR, 911 PDK or 458 owners complaining. They way technology is set up, it's just better to have a paddle shifted car than a manually shifted 3 pedal car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When your point is backed up with BS, your point is BS.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> When your point is backed up with BS, your point is BS.


Ok- if you insist 


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

Driving the exact same vehicle with a brilliant auto transmission and then a manual transmission are two totally different driving experiences.

The Audi DSG auto transmission, while world leading and quicker, requires a lot less input from the driver.

Driving a manual transmission requires that driver be far more engaged, especially when trying to squeeze that last drop of performance out of the vehicle.


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## Fizzboy7 (Feb 20, 2003)

The DSG is a manual. Anyone can keep it in sport and do their own shifting. Stuck in traffic? Back to auto mode. Best of both worlds, plus faster acceleration and higher mpg's in most cases.


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## dajiggalo (Jun 13, 2012)

performanc wise, the DSG will beat out the stick-shift every time (I don't think anyone is going to argue with that)....
however, I would presonally prefer the manual transmission because its more enjoyable (for me), more involving (i.e. more foot work, but I like it... except in heavy traffic), even though its slower (I don't race everybody on the street anyways)


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> Just saw a FB thread of the S3 article by Road & Track. After looking at the comments, I saw things like "no manual, no thanks" and "BS, no manual".
> 
> Was I the only one that was pissed that all US TT-RS where manual only? Euro spec RS did 0-60 in 2.7 sec (same as veyron).
> Manual TT-RS did it in 4.4 sec.... Do that math people.
> ...


Do you actually know how to drive a manual? If you did, you would understand what all the fuss is about.


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

Fizzboy7 said:


> The DSG is a manual. Anyone can keep it in sport and do their own shifting. Stuck in traffic? Back to auto mode. Best of both worlds, plus faster acceleration and higher mpg's in most cases.


Any reference to manual in this thread is to a transmission with a gear lever (or stick-shift).


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

jeff968 said:


> Do you actually know how to drive a manual? If you did, you would understand what all the fuss is about.


Besides my old A8 and my yukon, all my cars had and have a 3rd pedal. Question is have you compared 2 of the same cars with one being S-tronic and one being 6 speed manual. I have driven B8 S4's at limerock, one manual and one not. By far the Stronic was a better performer, 1 sec time difference 


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## lilmira (Feb 4, 2014)

It's all personal preference. Some people just want the job done, some people want the job done and enjoy doing it themselves. I can understand the frustration when the option is not available, unfortunately the market share has voted and manual is the minority. Suck it up, life goes on.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

Have you ever thought that people just enjoy shifting gears themselves and don't care if the DSG is 2/10ths of a second quicker?

Comparing the S3 to GTR's and Ferrari's is pretty stupid. I can understand that a super car or an exotic might be too powerful for most people to handle with a manual but a 300 hp S3 might quite simply be more fun to drive with a manual for the average driving enthusiast. Maybe that's why people are pissed, just a thought. :what:

BTW, people were complaining about the 911 turbo/GT3 losing the manual too. If the M3 or the Mustang all of sudden doesn't come with a manual, those buyers would complain too.


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## MickSF (May 22, 2008)

DaLeadBull said:


> Have you ever thought that people just enjoy shifting gears themselves and don't care if the DSG is 2/10ths of a second quicker?
> 
> Comparing the S3 to GTR's and Ferrari's is pretty stupid. I can understand that a super car or an exotic might be too powerful for most people to handle with a manual but a 300 hp S3 might quite simply be more fun to drive with a manual for the average driving enthusiast. Maybe that's why people are pissed, just a thought. :what:
> 
> BTW, people were complaining about the 911 turbo/GT3 losing the manual too. If the M3 or the Mustang all of sudden doesn't come with a manual, those buyers would complain too.


Well said. I agree. A stick should be an option, if you want and like DSG fine. If I want a stick, and I don't care that it is a little slower, I should have the choice. And yes, I drive a GTI now and I tried both versions.... I picked the manual.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)




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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm curious, who here would definitely order an A3/S3 as a manual if it was a $3900 special order option?


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

I'll repeat my piece... I agree that a manual can be more fun at times. My last car (I put 150k miles on it over 8 years) was a manual.. And I usually loved it. Except every day driving home from work (or should I day parking down the interstate?), or when trying to eat or grab my phone while driving.

My current car, I tested both transmissions.

I could be happy with a manual again. In a choice between a manual and a torque converter, I'll always choose the manual. But for my daily driver, I've come to prefer an automated manual. If I was buying a weekend/track car only, I'd be more likely to get a manual. But if you've never driven the DSG on a challenging road or a track, it really does so well, you start to appreciate it more. I'm not saying a manual sucks in that situation, or that its automatically better... But it is quite engaging, and the fast shifts allow you to focus more on the steering, you don't have to modify your steering or hold off on shifting because you can't take your hand off the wheel right then..

It comes down to preference.. Both are a lot of fun, but the daily driving experience is very different. A manual is a bit more fun at low/city speeds since you have to shift it yourself.

In the end, I'd say if you refuse to even test the S3 because of the DSG, give it a chance on some fun roads. If you still don't want it, that's your choice, but give it a fair chance.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Bruticus said:


> I'm curious, who here would definitely order an A3/S3 as a manual if it was a $3900 special order option?


Considering that on the S4 the S-Tronic is $1400 over the manual, what makes you think that on the S3 the manual would be a $3900 more than the S-Tronic?

That said, to answer your question more directly, if Audi wanted four grand for a stick in the S3, I'd buy a BMW M235i.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

araemo said:


> In the end, I'd say if you refuse to even test the S3 because of the DSG, give it a chance on some fun roads. If you still don't want it, that's your choice, but give it a fair chance.


Very well put... Seems like you and I are In the same situation. This is a point I was trying to make. The majority of people jump to a conclusion on an "auto" without even experiencing one. I plan on getting the S3 for daily and track day use. I am at a track every other week. I currently use my B6 A4 6MT USP with 207k miles for daily and track days. I love pounding in the gears as well, but from a track day standpoint I would Prefer Stronic S3. 

As far as using "other" cars as an example was a mistake and took this thread out of context. But I do plan on making close to 500 CHP on a 3400lb S3, that I'm certain would keep up with most exotics that aren't conventional manual.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> Considering that on the S4 the S-Tronic is $1400 over the manual, what makes you think that on the S3 the manual would be a $3900 more than the S-Tronic?
> 
> That said, to answer your question more directly, if Audi wanted four grand for a stick in the S3, I'd buy a BMW M235i.


He was postulating based on the flat fee to start an 'Audi exclusive' custom order for a nonstandard option (currently only paint is available for the s3). If you could get it by paying for 'Audi exclusive' ($3900), would you?


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

araemo said:


> He was postulating based on the flat fee to start an 'Audi exclusive' custom order for a nonstandard option (currently only paint is available for the s3). If you could get it by paying for 'Audi exclusive' ($3900), would you?


Exactly. I'm not trying to back anyone into a corner with that question or make a point against their desire for a manual.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

araemo said:


> If you could get it by paying for 'Audi exclusive' ($3900), would you?






rabbitgtibbar said:


> That said, to answer your question more directly, if Audi wanted four grand for a stick in the S3, I'd buy a BMW M235i.



If they priced it more like the standard stick/auto pricing scheme, I'd opt for the stick. I may even pay a slight premium for it. I'm certainly not going to pay a four grand premium for it, though.

I understand that the auto is a tick faster to 60 (.3 seconds, not a *ridiculous* 1.7 seconds as was stated up-thread). I just don't care. If I had 50 grand and only cared about acceleration, I'd buy a Fox-platform Mustang, drop 15 grand into it, eat up all comers in acceleration tests...then buy an brand new Miata with the leftover.

The thing is, I don't care just about acceleration. For me, being .3 seconds quicker to 60 mph (0-60 is a completely arbitrary performance metric, by the way) doesn't make the car "better". It may for some folks, and that's fine. I won't knock them for that. "Better" is subjective, and to belittle folks who don't share the same idea of "better" as you do is both immature and churlish.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

If the manual was $3900 more, it'd still be cheaper than a similarly equipped 335xi. (And the m235xi doesn't have a manual either.)


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## sevenVT (Aug 18, 2004)

I think the same people who complain about not having a manual are probably the same people who were complaining about DBW when it started being the standard. There's no such thing as a gas pedal, there's no MT... all these things have changed relatively recently for car folk, and I'm half expecting the same people would be arguing for power assisted steering and brakes to be stripped off if we gave them the chance, because nostalgia is a hard drug to kick.


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> I have driven B8 S4's at limerock, one manual and one not. By far the Stronic was a better performer, 1 sec time difference


This explains why you're confused. No question, today's modern automatics are better performers in every area. The fuss is about losing the driver engagement experience of a manual that the automatic will never offer. Many automotive enthusiasts look for that experience above everything else, hence the fuss.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

You are mistaken Jeff, I am not confused. I know exactly what I like. The fuss I am talking about is some people jump to a conclusion of staying "it's not manual, it's junk" with out even driving the car or something similar to it. 

You are also telling me that since you can no longer reach down to the shifter an make an "H" shift while depressing the clutch, you feel that you are losing driving engagement experience. I beg to differ in my experience, but will not belittle you for you opinion, i will respect it. 


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

DSG is terrible for anything other than daily driving. I own one and I have driven on the track with three different DSG cars. They are literally impossible to manipulate perfectly in every condition like a manual transmission. 

Who cares if it launches .5 seconds faster? Not everyone is a 0-60 bore, some of us like to DRIVE!


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

I will say that I have not driven a DSG with aftermarket software so that could solve some of the issues but the stock software is so dimwitted and slow that it's annoying.

Cars I've driven on the track: S6, S4, new A3. All of them would take .5-2.0 seconds to up shift, delay before downshifts, refuse to hold gears during maintenance throttle (up shifting when you back off rather than holding a gear) and shifting automatically at redline, even in dynamic mode. 

The A3 even decided it would rather bounce off the redline while in a neutral corner for about 3 seconds rather than respond to my paddle input -- it took so long I thought maybe I didn't hit it right, so I pushed it again and when it finally changed, it went up twice. 

I will never buy a "fun" car in DSG.

My daily is a CC with DSG. I'm getting an APR box tune put on it next week. It lurches during takeoff, loves to lug and start in 2nd, and suffers from the same down and up shift problems.

Best transmission I've ever driven on track was a gated manual on a V10 R8. Best "automatic" was/is the Magnetti Marelli semiautomatic on an Aston. It's essentially a manual without a clutch that actually shifts when you tell it to do so.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jsausley said:


> DSG is terrible for anything other than daily driving. I own one and I have driven on the track with three different DSG cars. They are literally impossible to manipulate perfectly in every condition like a manual transmission.
> 
> Who cares if it launches .5 seconds faster? Not everyone is a 0-60 bore, some of us like to DRIVE!


What about the Porsche GT3 owners? Do they like not to "DRIVE"? There isn't a clutch pedal in sight in the GT3. And when you say "DRIVE" that doesn't mean the fastest lap times. And what DSG cars did you drive on the track? Reason I ask is because the DSG's are faster around the track. And isn't that the main part of the track experience? Faster times? 

I don't know... but I don't need to a clutch pedal to have fun. I don't need the clutch pedal to effectively drive. Ask a Ferrari 458 owner if the car is fun or not? You know what the answer is. 458 never had a clutch pedal. The clutch pedal is archaic, cumbersome, and counter-productive. I drove my friends A4 manual and I felt like I was driving something from the 1800s.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jsausley said:


> I will say that I have not driven a DSG with aftermarket software so that could solve some of the issues but the stock software is so dimwitted and slow that it's annoying.
> 
> Cars I've driven on the track: S6, S4, new A3. All of them would take .5-2.0 seconds to up shift, delay before downshifts, refuse to hold gears during maintenance throttle (up shifting when you back off rather than holding a gear) and shifting automatically at redline, even in dynamic mode.


Drive a DSG that isn't an Audi. Audi DSG's do not represent how all DSG's operate. It isn't about software. Drive a GT-R or a F458 on a track, and I'll bet my life that the experience will be completely different than what you experienced in the Audis. Or better yet a Mclaren P1, or a Porsche 918. When I watched reviewers driving those cars on the track, one of them couldn't imagine the car with a gear lever and a clutch pedal. It took him a while to realize it, but he did realized that a clutch pedal on the track is counter-productive.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

jsausley said:


> I will say that I have not driven a DSG with aftermarket software so that could solve some of the issues but the stock software is so dimwitted and slow that it's annoying.
> 
> Cars I've driven on the track: S6, S4, new A3. All of them would take .5-2.0 seconds to up shift, delay before downshifts, refuse to hold gears during maintenance throttle (up shifting when you back off rather than holding a gear) and shifting automatically at redline, even in dynamic mode.
> 
> ...


I've not had the experiences you describe. I don't have aftermarket software, but one thing I usually noticed early.. if the engine/transmission is not at 'full temp', it is a bit less responsive. On mine though, it will auto upshift at redline.

I will say... it sounds like you're using them in a very weird way. You are putting them in 'auto' or 'sport', but then using the paddles to override the programming. That works, but it's not ideal. If you want full control, go to manual mode. It works much better. I never ever use 'sport' mode.. because if I'm driving hard enough that I want it to never upshift before redline... I'll be in manual, thanks. Hell, I'll be in manual if I'm expecting an empty interstate. And also, if you want to get the most out of it, treat it like anything else: learn how it works. (And I don't mean the mechanicals, I mean the programmimg..). If you are at steady-state throttle, but want to downshift for something coming up, give it more throttle first so it knows to pre-select the lower gear. Throttle, then hit the down paddle, and it'll shift quickly. This would be easily fixable with a two-stage paddle (like a camera shutter button.. pull lightly to have the transmission pre-select a gear.. pull the rest of the way to actually change)... but McLaren has that patented (they call it "PreCog"), so I doubt we'll see it on normal cars for a long time. I won't say it's perfect.. but honestly, I'm not perfect either - it 'flubs' (long delay or overly jerky) a shift less often than I did when I drove a manual.



Tony_S3 said:


> Drive a DSG that isn't an Audi. Audi DSG's do not represent how all DSG's operate. It isn't about software. Drive a GT-R or a F458 on a track, and I'll bet my life that the experience will be completely different than what you experienced in the Audis. Or better yet a Mclaren P1, or a Porsche 918. When I watched reviewers driving those cars on the track, one of them couldn't imagine the car with a gear lever and a clutch pedal. It took him a while to realize it, but he did realized that a clutch pedal on the track is counter-productive.


And also.. DIFFERENT Audi models. Just like the same engine in different applications gets a different ECU tune.. different models have different software revisions/tunes for the DSG, and everything I've read suggests each new model is better than the previous one, programming wise.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Try to wrap you head around this; some people don't live by 0-60 or lap times. They purchase a car for the driving experience. To them, the driving experience is more rewarding to them by rowing thier own gears and using a clutch. 

Some people enjoy base jumping and others think its ridiculous. The importance of necessity and functionality differs from butt cheek to butt cheek. What I don't understand is why you are preoccupied with other people's preferences if they don't affect you.

My personal preference is I'd rather not purchase a car in the S3 price point if I can't get the transmission I prefer. If I am forced into a experience I don't prefer, I rather save some money and buy a more reliable appliance car.

If I want to drive an automated trasnmission vehicle, I have one to drive already to get all the 'advantages' of owning one. I like to able to drive a manual when I want to and drive an automated transmission when I choose to, thus I chose not to buy an S3 or TT.


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## Xanlith (Apr 19, 2014)

Like many of you I've never owned anything other than a manual for myself and only drive automatics when I'm in my wife's car or a rental. That said, I'm going to give the DSG a try because frankly I want to have all the data points when it comes to making an informed decision for my next car. If the manual was available tomorrow for the S3, I'd almost certainly take it over the DSG for the pure fact that I don't care about 0-60 or lap times but rather the feel of being more closely connected to the car and the road.


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## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Dsg sucks


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## Wiley337 (May 1, 2002)

One point that I have not seen brought up, and may be a reason for more automatics: Variable speed autopilot features that only work in automatics. It is pretty nice to have the car come to a complete stop in bumper to bumper traffic, and have then have it manage the brake and accelerator to keep the distance just right between the car in front. Yep, this is about as opposite of driving on a track as you can get, but a reality of many drivers.

The fully equipped S3 is a great all-rounder. A comfortable, smallish daily driver that can handle the bumper-to-bumper commute, and then have a relatively serious sporty mode to enjoy when space opens up. You can take control of the gears, but no manual clutch mode. I can live with that. Overall it is a personal choice and calculus, which is why it is a fuss, or not for folks.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Audi's Adaptive cruise control can be had on a manual in Europe:

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/adaptive-cruise-control-worth-it-on-the-1-4-manual.225438/

Obviously it has limitations. 

Frankly, I'm ok with actually driving my car instead of relying on a system to handle the basic stuff I was taught in high school driver's education class. I also have a 16 core workstation on my desk that can do computational fluid dynamics, static and transient structural analysis, steady state and transient thermal analysis, electro-magnetic analysis, and explicit dynamics. Nonetheless, I maintain the ability to solve basic problems by hand, calculator, or spreadsheet. I don't stop being an engineer because my computer is down. I don't stop being a driver with adaptive cruise control.

I think when people use these driving aids, they stop paying attention to what's going on around them. They are more inclined to text when driving.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

VR6Now said:


> I think when people use these driving aids, they stop paying attention to what's going on around them. They are more inclined to text when driving.


So to sum up your logic: driving aids --> people stop paying attention --> people texting while driving --> thermonuclear war! 

OK, I added the last part but you were probably thinking it because...


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Anecdote to be sure, but my wife raked our mailbox down the left rear flank of her A3 because she was staring at the backup screen and never once checked her mirrors.

Needless to say, I agree with *VR6now*. Why check your blind-spot before changing lanes when the blind-spot monitoring system will do it for you? Why pay attention to the road up ahead when the accident avoidance system will do that for you? Why pay attention to the car in front of you when the cruise control will just keep a constant gap for you? Why pay attention to the lane markings when the lane departure system will do that for you?

Why have a car at all when you have no desire to drive it? Take the bus or a taxi and when you want to "drive" fast, fire up Forza. You get your push button transmission and you don't have to pay attention to anyone else in the world. Win/win. As an added bonus, I don't have to worry about you driving into me because you forgot that your car doesn't have a "red light monitoring system". Win/win/win


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## Tailwagger (Nov 30, 2008)

The fuss is pretty simple. Some of us like to think for ourselves and be as much in control of our own destiny as is possible. I wonder how the OP would feel if a few years hence Google and Audi partnered to produce an autonomous S3 that was 15 seconds faster around the Ring than their quickest test driver. Would you ask what all the fuss was about then? Regardless, that's where this is all headed in case you hadn't noticed.

OTOH, I don't hear many crying over the loss of cables and Webers. But if you're after is the most direct connection from your toes to your engine you should hate the fact these cars are all e-throttles, turbos and EFI. Brake feel? It been a decade at least since I've read anyone bitching about ABS, but I can tell you there is nothing like loosing the sensors and power boosters such that when you press the pedal you directly act on the fluid that moves the caliper pistons. Having owned many cars with non-power rack and pinion steering, I always have to laugh every time I read another review bemoaning the loss of steering feel now that the racks are electrically rather than hydraulically boosted. DSGs are but one more step in the slow but inexorable set of steps of interposing computers and electronics between man and machine and each time its done, a little something of the driving experience dies. 

The sad fact is that in very short order row it yourself models will be but a memory and no amount of bitching and moaning will turn back this clock. But hopefully it will get us a few more examples before the robots chauffeurs take over entirely.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Bruticus said:


> so sum up your logic: driving aids --> people stop paying attention --> people texting while driving --> thermonuclear war!
> 
> OK, I added the last part but you were probably thinking


Oh my, I need the car to stop and go for me because traffic is to hard. I can't go to the gym because the weights are too heavy.

Over dependence on flight automation in aviation is a concern of alot of people in the industry. Attentiveness and skill atrophy are what worry experts. 

http://m.aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/editorial-how-end-automation-dependency

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._1_colgan-air-flight-pilot-error-airline-jobs

http://m.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304439804579204202526288042?mobile=y

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction-pilots-forgetting-fly/story?id=14417730

And the concerns are now moving to driving:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3576059

It's clear the driving automation will save lives. It's also clear that people will let attention drift and they relax when a solid state device is demonstrating competent control. This gets you ignorant people that don't think to put there cars in neutral when their floor mats jam the accelerator down. People who don't think their way through problems. Air France 447 and Asiana 214 might have been avoided if the pilots reverted to flying skills pilots are given in training.

Being I have actually designed automotive control system components, I have more respect for my logic than yours. I'm so glad you have so much confidence in people like me getting it right. Good luck with that. You may have already flown or driven somewhere while dependent upon my flawed logic. Enjoy the fruits of my labor. I warn you that now it is applied to weapons systems in tactical and strategic roles. Sleep well tonight.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Tailwagger said:


> The fuss is pretty simple. Some of us like to think for ourselves and be as much in control of our own destiny as is possible...


For me, it isn't just a control thing. I *enjoy* shifting. It's really that simple.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

Some folks are just resistant to change, even if its for the better.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

Some folks here act like no one has ever fallen asleep while driving a manual. I fail to see the connection between not having a clutch pedal and inattentive driving. 

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I've actually enjoyed the less restrictive nature of the dsg while spirited driving more than a clutch- pedal manual. Everything is more accessible. Gear shift? Pull a lever vs. The manual method which requires for you to, Remove your foot off the throttle, depress the clutch pedal, remove your hand from the wheel, reach down to the center console, grab the gear lever, put the shifter into the gear needed, remove your foot from the clutch pedal, and re apply the throttle. Shifting doesn't have to require all of those steps in order for me to have fun, or feel involved. I'd rather rattle off shifts like I'm shooting gun. Guess I'm different. But a dsg is a more effective device. All that clutch pedal stuff just seems unnecessary to me.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

VR6Now said:


> Oh my, I need the car to stop and go for me because traffic is to hard. I can't go to the gym because the weights are too heavy.
> 
> Over dependence on flight automation in aviation is a concern of alot of people in the industry. Attentiveness and skill atrophy are what worry experts.
> 
> ...


There is zero causation in this argument but it is typical of laypeople trying to find some causation where they perceive correlation (aka post hoc). The fact is, there is no temporal antecedence (a requirement of causation) of technology causing people to be inattentive while driving. Much more likely, people who are being inattentive driving a car with these features were already poor drivers and that is the true cause. In other words, the real (lurking) variable at play here is a person's inattentive habits/poor driving practices. However, there is plenty of evidence to support that computer aids can help reduce (but never eliminate) the harmful results of these drivers (e.g. ABS brakes).

Your first paragraph is just a silly straw man argument.

Your last paragraph proves my first contention about laypeople failing to understand causation. In your case, your post hoc logic failure sounds like it is being supported by something known as confirmation bias. If that is actually part of your work, hopefully, it does not render your designs too terribly flawed or others are able to correct them for you.

BTW, I am in no way opposed to manual transmissions. I say give the people what they want and charge them for it. I think the problem is that most will not want to pay an amount the car manufacturers would feel they need to charge in the current market and thus the feature is lost. It's only one sad example of the many tradeoffs that come from mass manufacturing and market segmentation.

I think it should also be noted in this thread that the DSG, and others like it, is not what most people think of when referring to a transmission as an automatic. Dual clutch transmissions are significantly better than the typical 5 or 6 speed automatics, or even worse, the CVT. I'm not saying it should totally displace the manual either. I'm just putting it into perspective relative to the other types.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

Tailwagger said:


> The fuss is pretty simple. Some of us like to think for ourselves and be as much in control of our own destiny as is possible.





VR6Now said:


> For me, it isn't just a control thing. I *enjoy* shifting. It's really that simple.




I think these two posts actually answer OP's question. The first quote, like many people who post complaints about the lack of a manual, takes the tack that anyone who likes a dual clutch transmission is lazy, stupid, can't really drive, or is somehow inferior to those that want a manual. Obviously, that is baseless and clouds the issue. The second quote best sums up the real reason there is all the "fuss." Some people want to do it themselves and don't like having the option taken away from them. 

So now,


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## Wiley337 (May 1, 2002)

VR6Now said:


> Oh my, I need the car to stop and go for me because traffic is to hard. I can't go to the gym because the weights are too heavy.
> 
> Over dependence on flight automation in aviation is a concern of alot of people in the industry. Attentiveness and skill atrophy are what worry experts. .


This is a slippery slope argument, as well as false equivalence. It seems you are trying to say computer controlled progress is not like in the good 'ol days when people had to do hard work. All these lazy good for nuthin', disrespectin' generation with their gadgets and new fangled stuff. Clearly that will be the end of the good people, right?

The professional commercial shipping and aviation industry have depended on great autopilots and automation for a long time. They have been key technologies to let our economy scale. Yes, critical human thought gets us through tough situations. And thankfully in _most_ instances the autopilots help keep the humans rested and ready to take action. Interesting articles, and the "automation managers" have had an overall good safety record.

I welcome more personal car and transportation automation, and it will indeed save lives. As well as let people focus on other endeavors if they choose. You never know what innovation may open up because someone was freed from that thing that became automated. This has been the story of human progress.

Anyway, adaptive cruise and pre-sense are consistent, and do not get tired or distracted. Yep, they may fail or have a disfunction, but I will take those odds any day. If I want to have a throw back to a different era, I can certainly find the niche technology (classic kit cars, motorcycles, dune buggies, etc.). But the attitude that we need more hard work for things that can be automated is disempowering and backwards. Progress is not always 100% positive, but it is progress. We do live in a era with lots of interesting choices.


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## Tailwagger (Nov 30, 2008)

Bruticus said:


> BTW, I am in no way opposed to manual transmissions. I say give the people what they want and charge them for it. I think the problem is that most will not want to pay an amount the car manufacturers would feel they need to charge in the current market and thus the feature is lost. It's only one sad example of the many tradeoffs that come from mass manufacturing and market segmentation.
> 
> I think it should also be noted in this thread that the DSG, and others like it, is not what most people think of when referring to a transmission as an automatic. Dual clutch transmissions are significantly better than the typical 5 or 6 speed automatics, or even worse, the CVT. I'm not saying it should totally displace the manual either. I'm just putting it into perspective relative to the other types.


For the record, if I do wind up with an S3 or a MKVII R, for a number of reasons, it will be a DSG this time around. But then I'll be keeping my current manual R as well.

The cost argument, at least in this case, doesn't hold as Audi already supplies a manual versions in Europe. VWoA has learned its lesson in this regard. The R32/R experience has taught them to offer both this time around. Likely A4/5/S4 manual sales have push Audi the other way. But FWIW, the R, offered manual only, over sold its subscription in the US whereas many of the DSG-only R32s languished on lots for many months after production had ceased. One wonders just how many potential S3 sales will ultimately fall to VW due to the lack of a 6 speed.

As for manumatics being better, with any engineering exercise alternate approaches have strengths and weaknesses. They're certainly not cheaper to produce, nor to date, can we claim that they're more reliable or have greater longevity. Have you driven a CLA? I wouldn't in any way call it superior to other ATs I've recently road tested including the Golf TSI 6 speed. I don't hear many BMW guys clamoring for a DCT over the 8sp ZF. These are road cars, not race cars and in that regard these trannies are not about ultimate performance. They're just ATs. good ones are good, bad ones are bad.


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## spa2k (Aug 12, 2005)

VR6Now said:


> For me, it isn't just a control thing. I *enjoy* shifting. It's really that simple.


There is nothing quite so orgasmic as the perfect 3-2 downshift.


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## Tailwagger (Nov 30, 2008)

spa2k said:


> There is nothing quite so orgasmic as the perfect 3-2 downshift.


Then what ever you do, dont ever try to execute a 130 to 40, 5-4-3-2. You might black out from ecstasy and hit a wall.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Tony_S3 said:


> Drive a DSG that isn't an Audi. Audi DSG's do not represent how all DSG's operate. It isn't about software. Drive a GT-R or a F458 on a track, and I'll bet my life that the experience will be completely different than what you experienced in the Audis. Or better yet a Mclaren P1, or a Porsche 918. When I watched reviewers driving those cars on the track, one of them couldn't imagine the car with a gear lever and a clutch pedal. It took him a while to realize it, but he did realized that a clutch pedal on the track is counter-productive.


Nope, I've driven a GT-R on track and had similar situations occur (I actually thought it was BORING -- way too much computer intervention -- fast, when it's not pushing, but boring -- the 6MT R8 V10 was MUCH more involving and charismatic). I will admit the GT-R's programming is better than any Audi I've been in (it will not upshift when you let off like Audi programming) but it still auto-upshifts rather than hold the gear, which I find really annoying. 

I drove the S4 and A3 in manual mode and the S6 in Sport mode (auto). The reason I drove the S6 in Sport mode is because the car's exhaust is so quiet, you can't hear the engine noise so there's no way to time your shifts (better to let the computer do it for you), all you hear is wind-noise.

I've done over 2,000 laps of VIR, which is where I have driven all of these cars, most of those laps in racing so I can tell you when something is slowing me down.. and the DSGs that I have driven definitely do that. If one existed that could skip down gears and would unquestionably hold gears 100% of the time, it would be faster than a manual but I have not driven a dual clutch, DSG, DCT, etc., box that has those characteristics.

I have not driven a GT3, F458, P1 or 918 and I doubt you have either.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

Tailwagger said:


> The cost argument, at least in this case, doesn't hold as Audi already supplies a manual versions in Europe.


The availability of the manual in Europe really does not resolve the fixed costs issue for bringing it to NA. Sure, R&D and quality testing are done but the real cost lies in filling and maintaining the supply chain. If there is enough demand for the MT option, that is covered. However, Audi believes (like so many other car manufacturers now) that there is not enough demand for MTs to cover those costs. I don't pretend to know if the anticipated low demand is ultimately true or not but it's the car manufacturers' perception that counts.


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## Tailwagger (Nov 30, 2008)

Bruticus said:


> The availability of the manual in Europe really does not resolve the fixed costs issue for bringing it to NA. Sure, R&D and quality testing are done but the real cost lies in filling and maintaining the supply chain. If there is enough demand for the MT option, that is covered. However, Audi believes (like so many other car manufacturers now) that there is not enough demand for MTs to cover those costs. I don't pretend to know if the anticipated low demand is ultimately true or not but it's the car manufacturers' perception that counts.


The real money, as you put it, billions and billions, is spent on the tooling and development side and its recouped by selling product, not holding it back. The supply chain is already here for the US. The pipeline is already here. Its a single unit, shared with the sister company who's already committed to shipping it here. The parts are already being stockpile in Germany for the dozens of markets that do get the stick. And parts, in the end, are very profitable. No, if indeed there is a cost issue, its more likely with US red tape such as emissions and crash re-certification etc as a result of changing transmissions. manual or other wise. 

But I dont think that's really it either. My guess is that the overriding factor is down to the direction being set by the brand psychologists and a growing set of large, powerful, upscale dealerships, not something as mundane as a supply chain cost. Those folks believe, probably correctly given how successful they been, that the bigger market serves those who place a higher value on fresh croissants and free Starbucks than an involving driving experience. They are goal is clearly defining the upscale nature of the brand and manuals just dont fit into the picture they are trying to paint.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

Tailwagger said:


> The real money, as you put it, billions and billions, is spent on the tooling and development side and its recouped by selling product, not holding it back. The supply chain is already here for the US. The pipeline is already here. Its a single unit, shared with the sister company who's already committed to shipping it here. The parts are already being stockpile in Germany for the dozens of markets that do get the stick. And parts, in the end, are very profitable. No, if indeed there is a cost issue, its more likely with US red tape such as emissions and crash re-certification etc as a result of changing transmissions. manual or other wise.
> 
> But I dont think that's really it either. My guess is that the overriding factor is down to the direction being set by the brand psychologists and a growing set of large, powerful, upscale dealerships, not something as mundane as a supply chain cost. Those folks believe, probably correctly given how successful they been, that the bigger market serves those who place a higher value on fresh croissants and free Starbucks than an involving driving experience. They are goal is clearly defining the upscale nature of the brand and manuals just dont fit into the picture they are trying to paint.


Tooling and development represent sunk costs and wouldn't factor into the decision. Inventory costs of having to have a bunch of parts throughout the country for, in their mind, very few sales is not worth it. I'm willing to bet that somewhere someone ran an ABC accounting analysis and decided those SCM costs are not recoverable based upon projected demand.

However, I do see merit in your theory about their plans regarding brand identity and MTs in a luxury brand. I'm sure there are many factors affecting their decision.


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## KnockKnock (Jun 30, 2005)

Whoa! Hey!!! I almost missed a(nother) DSG vs STICK thread?!

:wave:


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jsausley said:


> I've done over 2,000 laps of VIR, which is where I have driven all of these cars, most of those laps in racing so I can tell you when something is slowing me down.. and the DSGs that I have driven definitely do that.


That's funny... Porsche didn't include a manual on the GT-3 for that very reason. It was slowing the car down. 



jsausley said:


> If one existed that could skip down gears and would unquestionably hold gears 100% of the time, it would be faster than a manual but I have not driven a dual clutch, DSG, DCT, etc., box that has those characteristics.


Then you haven't driven a GT-R in race mode. Boxes like that exist. GT-R's do not shift by themselves in race mode. The SST trans in my old EVO X would hold gears and never shift on its own in manual mode. You could drive around bouncing off the rev limiter all day in 1st gear if you wanted. Dual clutches are faster than manuals. It isn't even up for debate. I'm starting to really doubt that you've even driven a GT-R at all. Sounds suspect. The fact that you think that all of those boxes, will eventually shift by themselves, tells me that you don’t have any REAL experience with those boxes. Or someone just let you drive the car. You didn't spend any real time with the car to see what it can really do. You can’t form an accurate opinion on that limited exposure, especially when you never drove it in race mode.
Follow this link: 
http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/44243-shifts-automatically-even-when-in-manual-mode/


jsausley said:


> I have not driven a GT3, F458, P1 or 918 and I doubt you have either.


When did I say that I did drive those cars? And if you did drive those cars you wouldn't be saying what you are saying now about Dual-Clutch transmissions. There's a reason why you don't see F1 drivers shifting gears with a center mounted gear lever and a clutch pedal. A Clutch-Pedal, Console mounted Gear-Shift manual on an F1 car would be comical, not to mention significantly slower.


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> You are also telling me that since you can no longer reach down to the shifter an make an "H" shift while depressing the clutch, you feel that you are losing driving engagement experience. I beg to differ in my experience, Tapatalk


Ohh, there is so much more to it then that. Listening to the RPMs of the engine and applying the correct gear for the situation, using the gear to avoid braking, choosing the gear and applying the clutch as you go into and come out of a turn. It is an amazingly fun experience. And let's not forget, you don't have to come to a complete stop when you back out of a parking spot :thumbup:


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

jeff968 said:


> Ohh, there is so much more to it then that. Listening to the RPMs of the engine and applying the correct gear for the situation, using the gear to avoid braking, choosing the gear and applying the clutch as you go into and come out of a turn. It is an amazingly fun experience. And let's not forget, you don't have to come to a complete stop when you back out of a parking spot :thumbup:


Except for applying the clutch coming in and out of turns (don't see a reason for it), dual clutch transmissions can do exactly what you have just described.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Versus










Hey, the bottom one is faster, so it must be better.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> Versus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very poor analogy. Faster at what? The one on the top cooks faster.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> Except for applying the clutch coming in and out of turns (don't see a reason for it), dual clutch transmissions can do exactly what you have just described.


Yep.. we're getting comments about Dual-Clutch transmissions from folks who don't have any experience with them. If he did, he would know that a dual-clutch trans does everything he mentioned. Even down shifting before a turn. Not sure how pushing in a clutch to make that downshift makes it more "fun"? If he had to wiggle his hips to perform that down-shift I guess that would be more fun as well?


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

From the Fourtitude S3 driver's reports:

_Unless I lived in a city with constant bumper-to-bumper traffic, I’d want the manual. There’s something more self gratifying, more engaging and even magical about rowing your own gears, rev matching and pairing it all with an empty snaking back road. Yes, the S tronic is very good and yes the steering wheel paddles on the flat-bottom wheel are satisfying to use as well, but not as much as the manual is for those who see shifting as an art._


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jeff968 said:


> From the Fourtitude S3 driver's reports:
> 
> _Unless I lived in a city with constant bumper-to-bumper traffic, I’d want the manual. There’s something more self gratifying, more engaging and even magical about rowing your own gears, rev matching and pairing it all with an empty snaking back road. Yes, the S tronic is very good and yes the steering wheel paddles on the flat-bottom wheel are satisfying to use as well, but not as much as the manual is for those who see shifting as an art._


What he calls self gratifying, I call cumbersome and unnecessary.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Tony_S3 said:


> Very poor analogy. Faster at what? The one on the top cooks faster.


Hey, you and I just want linguini with clams. The box stuff gets you there faster. Who has time to mix and measure semolina and eggs? Box of pasta FTW! Right?

To each their own. Me? When I want to eat, I prefer the whole experience of making the dish. You? Take-out is better, as it gets the food in your face faster. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I prefer something else.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

How each side of this debate views the other group:


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> I'm just saying I prefer something else.


Then why can't folks just say that instead of knocking the DCT? I think where the Manuals guys get upset is that they see less and less manuals being produced. There's a reason for that. And that reason is that there's a more efficient, faster shifting, newer, better transmission available. Where the manual guys get it wrong is when they try to argue that the Clutch-Pedal manual is better. It isn't better by any measure... Subjectively a person can think that it's better. That doesn't mean that it is. Subjectively a person can feel that Rosanne Barr is more attractive than Selena Gomez. It's all personal preference and one group shouldn't knock the other. What I see are Manual guys trying to knock DCT transmissions. That is where it all starts imo.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)




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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Then why can't folks just say that instead of knocking the stick? I think where the DCT guys get big-headed is that they see more and more DCT's being produced. There's a reason for that. And that reason is that they are more efficient, faster shifting and newer. Where the DCT guys get it wrong is when they try to argue that the flappy paddle manual is better. It isn't better. Subjectively a person can think that it's better. That doesn't mean that it is. Subjectively a person can feel that Salma Hayak is more attractive than Selena Gomez. It's all personal preference and one group shouldn't knock the other. What I see are DCT guys trying to knock manual transmissions. That is where it all starts imo.

I'll say it again, and for the last time, as I'm seriously tired of saying it. Faster isn't better. Faster is faster. Faster isn't the end all be all for everyone. It is for you. Great, that makes the DCT better...for *you*. It doesn't make it better, period.

This whole thread started with a guy asking why stick lovers can't just admit they're wrong and admit that the DCT is better. It then got dogpiled with a bunch of guys who condescendingly tried to tell us why stick-lovers are wrong.

/Your post by the way, made my irony meter explode.


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

Tony_S3 said:


> I think where the Manuals guys get upset is that they see less and less manuals being produced. There's a reason for that. And that reason is that there's a more efficient, faster shifting, newer, better transmission available.


All true but the automatic will never as much fun. That is the part you don't understand. You'll have to spend time with a sports car outfitted with a manual to learn how to use it and understand how the driver and machine work together resulting in a more rewarding experience. 

The #1 reason that less manuals are sold is because new drivers aren't learning how to use them and because of that, the demand has dropped. Just like anything worth knowing, it takes some time but in the end you are rewarded with a more satisfying experience. But in today's "hurry up and go" "instant gratification" culture we just want things to be easier and simpler and you can't get much easier and simpler then a "ho hum" automatic. Get in, start it, put it in "D" and you're off. Ah, but the fun you could have had.... Oh well, the good news is you'll never know the fun you are missing. Long live the automatic!  IMHO of course.


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## EmphasisTuningNYC (Jan 9, 2002)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> This whole thread started with a guy asking why stick lovers can't just admit they're wrong and admit that the DCT is better. It then got dogpiled with a bunch of guys who condescendingly tried to tell us why stick-lovers are wrong.


This whole whole started when I asked why people are hating on DSG? Not that DSG is better... It all started with me when I saw a road and track post on FB and in the comments ppl were saying that it sucked, when I'm sure 95% of these ppl never driven anything but either an torque converted auto or 3rd pedal manual. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> Then why can't folks just say that instead of knocking the stick? I think where the DCT guys get big-headed is that they see more and more DCT's being produced. There's a reason for that. And that reason is that they are more efficient, faster shifting and newer. Where the DCT guys get it wrong is when they try to argue that the flappy paddle manual is better. It isn't better. Subjectively a person can think that it's better. That doesn't mean that it is. Subjectively a person can feel that Salma Hayak is more attractive than Selena Gomez. It's all personal preference and one group shouldn't knock the other. What I see are DCT guys trying to knock manual transmissions. That is where it all starts imo.


Your welcome for putting that paragraph together for you. Guess it's hard to be original? 

Anyway... DCT guys might knock a manual transmission as a reaction to the DCT trans being knocked. Remember, it isn't the DCT's that are experiencing dwindling numbers. So why would DCT drivers go on the offensive? It's the manual guys that are the most vocal because they see their favorite transmission being relegated to the waste bin. DCT guys are straight, no need to argue. Our Transmissions aren't going anywhere. Yours is. So you have to be more vocal if you want to keep it. And that is exactly what is happening. Now reverse this like you did my last paragraph. You cant.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

EmphasisTuningNYC said:


> when I'm sure 95% of these ppl never driven anything but either an torque converted auto or 3rd pedal manual.


Yep... That doesn't stop them from being super vocal about how much they don't like something they've never experienced.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jeff968 said:


> But in today's "hurry up and go" "instant gratification" culture we just want things to be easier and simpler and you can't get much easier and simpler then a "ho hum" automatic. Get in, start it, put it in "D" and you're off. Ah, but the fun you could have had.... Oh well, the good news is you'll never know the fun you are missing. Long live the automatic!  IMHO of course.


Then cant we say that manual guys are old fashioned and need unnecessary involvement to feel engaged? 

I learned to drive with a manual. 6 out of the 7 cars that I've owned were manuals. I owned 4 motorcycles, 2 dirt bikes. I'm not missing anything. The second I drove the EVO X MR with the Dual Clutch I didn't want to see another clutch pedal again. Clutch pedals are cumbersome, archaic, and counterproductive.


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

Tony_S3 said:


> Then cant we say that manual guys are old fashioned and need unnecessary involvement to feel engaged?


Tony, 

Again, what you continue to miss is that the unnecessary involvement is the fun part. Think of it this way, you can reproduce using in vitro fertilization. Still, most of us prefer the unnecessary involvement.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jeff968 said:


> Tony,
> 
> Again, what you continue to miss is that the unnecessary involvement is the fun part. Think of it this way, you can reproduce using in vitro fertilization. Still, most of us prefer the unnecessary involvement.


Another poor analogy. Manuals are physical sex and DCTs are in vitro? C'mon man.... So I guess the Ferrari F458 Italia is the automotive equivalent to in vitro fertilization? vs Actual sex. Both have their pluses and minuses. But the folks who make high performance sports cars prefer DCT. I'm with them.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Clutch pedals are stupid!

I prefer a clutch.

Well, you're stupid! A clutch makes the car slower!

That may be true, but I'm not all that concerned about being a tick slower. I prefer a clutch.

Why can't you just admit that a clutch pedals makes the car slower and therefore worse?!

Again, I don't care about speed. I just prefer a stick.

Well, some folks might like AIDS but I like chocolate ice cream. I guess you just like AIDS.

I think we're done here.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Why the hell does anyone own a gas stove or a grill? Its objectively faster and easier to use a microwave.

Perhaps the _process _is what people enjoy, not just the result.

And don't kid yourself that the vast majority of people buy automatics over manuals for performance....its simply a feature that enables simultaneous texting/phonecalling/cheeseburger eating


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

Tony_S3 said:


> I'm with them.



I'm on the fun side!!! Row your own! :thumbup:

Go for a ride with a competent manual driver in a true manual transmission sports car and you'll understand. Just look at the big grin on his or her face!


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## BLKGTIVR6 (Sep 28, 2000)

When you're paying $50,000, you want what you want. You might not see Nissan GTR, 911 PDK or 458 owners complaining because they are a different buyer demographic than the one buying the S3. People who buy more expensive cars tend to be older since they tend to have more spending power. The older you are, the more likely you are to not mind a car with an auto tranny. This is all generally speaking, of course.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jeff968 said:


> I'm on the fun side!!! Row your own! :thumbup:
> 
> Go for a ride with a competent manual driver in a true manual transmission sports car and you'll understand. Just look at the big grin on his or her face!


No need to ride with one. I am one.  I've driven manuals for 26 years straight.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

ChrisFu said:


> And don't kid yourself that the vast majority of people buy automatics over manuals for performance....its simply a feature that enables simultaneous texting/phonecalling/cheeseburger eating



I could do all of that with a manual. In fact I remember when I was young, I was racing someone while I was eating chicken wings while driving a manual, I dusted him. What makes you think that folks cant do the things you mentioned while driving a Manual transmission?


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

DCTs are Boring!

I prefer a DCT.

Well, you're stupid! DCT's are for folks who want to text drive and eat cheeseburgers. They don't care about driving. Only old rich folks like DCT

That is a complete crock of crap.... I prefer the direct nature of the DCT.

Why can't you just admit that DCT's lack involvement and is the equivalent of eating steak with a condom on your tongue. ?!

Again, I don't need a clutch pedal to have fun and enjoy the car.

Well, some folks might like AIDS but I like chocolate ice cream. I guess you just like AIDS.


I can also play that game dude.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

Cars that I've owned that were manuals:

1988 Ford Escort GT
1990 Eagle Talon TSI 
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1998 Audi A4 1.8t
2001 BMW 330i

I might have said 6 cars that were manuals. It was only 5.

Motorcycles:
1982 Kawasaki KX80
1984 Suzuki GS550 ES
1985 Ninja 600r
2004 Suzuki GSX-R 750
2005 Suzuki GSX-R 1000 (I still have it)

I'm willing to bet that I have more experience with manual transmissions than 99.99% of the folks here that are defending it.


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## DaLeadBull (Feb 15, 2011)

Tony, no one cares man. Give it a rest, this DCT vs Manual battle has been fought a million times. :facepalm:


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

DaLeadBull said:


> Tony, no one cares man. Give it a rest, this DCT vs Manual battle has been fought a million times. :facepalm:


I know what side you are on.  Battle has been fought and we know who's winning.


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## Nealric (Feb 16, 2013)

Tony_S3 said:


> I know what side you are on.  Battle has been fought and we know who's winning.


In 20 years, everything is going to be direct drive electric. In 50 years, it will be illegal for a human driver to be on most major roads. Enjoy your DCT while you can


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)

Tony_S3 said:


> I know what side you are on.  Battle has been fought and we know who's winning.



Ah, I see the problem here. You think this is a contest, something to be "won", like Android versus Apple, Democrat versus Republican, Steelers fan versus Ravens fan, or Catholic versus Protestant. You seek...nay *need* validation that you have made the correct decision, and in your mind the best way to "prove" that is to have the most people on your team.

I'm on team "Pick Whatever the Fark Works Best for You". You're on team "Zealous Ass". Congrats on "winning"; however, you're still a zealous ass.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Got my DSG tune this week.

It still sucks.

It's a little better than it was -- I appreciate the noticeable smoother up and downshifts, but it's still ungodly clunky at slow speeds.


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## MickSF (May 22, 2008)

Tony_S3 said:


> I could do all of that with a manual. In fact I remember when I was young, I was racing someone while I was eating chicken wings while driving a manual, I dusted him. What makes you think that folks cant do the things you mentioned while driving a Manual transmission?


Tony maybe you can but most can't. Many people buy automatic because they don't really want to be "burdened" with shifting, they want to eat, text, put on make up, read, etc... Many others don't know how to drive a stick... at the end of the buy what you like and enjoy it, life is short. Each choice has it's positives and negatives.


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## Bruticus (Aug 30, 2014)

rabbitgtibbar said:


> "Zealous Ass"


Reminds me of a girl I dated in college.


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## rabbitgtibbar (Apr 29, 2002)




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## Disarm99 (Jan 2, 2010)

We know that DCTs are faster than manuals, but manuals are more fun and rewarding to drive. I just sold my evo x mr because I didn't enjoy driving it even though the sst it is an amazing transmission. I rather be slower in something I enjoy more.


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## jeff968 (Apr 25, 2006)

Disarm99 said:


> We know that DCTs are faster than manuals, but manuals are more fun and rewarding to drive. I just sold my evo x mr because I didn't enjoy driving it even though the sst it is an amazing transmission. I rather be slower in something I enjoy more.


I agree but don't say that around Tony. He knows more then 99.99% of us. :bs:


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