# New brakes needed at 25,000 miles?????



## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

After just 25,000 miles the sensors are squeeking. The dealer wants $200 for a pair of pads, plus $180 labor PLUS $360 for a pair of rotors. Total is $740 for just one axle. Went to a brake shop who quoted $540. Can this be true???? That means each year I will be spending over a thousand dollars just for brakes!!!! Wow!!! If this is true (along with other problems and concerns) this vehicle is just too expensive to keep for a long time. My plans are to drive it for another couple of years then go back to domestic or Japanesse vehicles. Any others have information about brakes, mileage, costs, performance, etc??????


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

Has the dealer measured the rotors to know for sure they are needed? Both front and rear pads and rotors?


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Dealer claims as does the brake shop, that the rotors are "throw aways" which means they are thin and need to be replaced every time new pads are put on. Shop says this is common on European cars.


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## FASTER345 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

At 25K you should NOT need new rotors...unless you are constantly braking like you're approaching the chicane on the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans







...or stock VW brake pads are EXTREMELY aggressive. Which is it??? I've had slightly smaller Brembo rotors for 80,000 on a 4000 lb car and no need to replace yet. Cheers.


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (FASTER345)*

Thanks, I agree, that rotors should last longer than 25,000. I am not an agressive driver and sort of coast to a stop and slow down and play the traffic lights. So....can I look and see how thin the rotors are very easily??


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## matthewsjl (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (FASTER345)*

I'm from Europe and rotors should not need replacement at 25k.
The hub of the rotor should have a minimum thickness stamped on it (and the VW dealer should be able to give you this figure). Measure the disc with a micrometer.
Slight lipping of the disc where the pad has worn into the rotor is OK, as is scoring as long as it is light. Warped discs would cause vibration under braking.
In Europe, this trick of telling customers they need discs and pads is becomming more common. It's an easy sell as most people don't know the specs or what to ask/look for.
John.


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (matthewsjl)*

Again thanks for the information about rotors. I'm coming off a Nissan Pathfinder that went over 330,000 miles. I replaced the pads myself every 50-60k for years. Never neeeded new rotors. And....the pads were only about 20 bucks a pair. This Touareg is great to drive, but the up keep is killling me!!!


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## See5 (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

Unfortunately it is probably too early to find aftermarket pads, but it is not too early to do it yourself. There is nothing special about DIY brakes on the Touareg.
As far as throw away rotors-- whose $ are they throwing?


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (See5)*

Should there be a warning light on the instrument display to indicate that new brakes are needed? Or is it just the manual sound of the brake indicator at the shoes???


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## SlotCAR (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

For PRICE reference Only ...
I see Drew Auto Parts advertises here on Vortex.
I know 'nothing' about this company ...

--> Touareg Maintanence Parts 
--> Drew Auto Parts - 20% Discount For Vortex Members


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

There is a warning coming on in the MFI when new pads are needed..
And there is no way that new rotors are needed at this mileage.
In fact, if you change the pads when needed, the rotors will stay within tolerance for hundreds of thousands miles.
There's only the chance of warping them from excessive and sudden temperature variations but then you should get vibes on the steering wheel, when braking..
If this is not the case, stealer is taking you for a ride...


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

Ask for a measurement. If you decide to replace the rotors, ask for ALL the old parts back. Then you can measure yourself and see if new rotors are really warranted.
You can find the option codes on a sticker near the spare tire:
Front:
308 mm - 1LB
330 mm - 1LC
350 mm - 1LF
Rear:
314 mm - 1KE
330 mm - 1KF
*Front Brake specs:*
R5
Ventilated brake disc: diameter 308 mm - p/n 7H0 615 301 D (either side)
Brake disc thickness: 29.5 mm
Wear limit: 25.5 mm
Brake pads thickness 11.5 mm not including backing plate - p/n 7L6 698 151 B
Wear limit: 2 mm not including backing plate
V6/V8 
Ventilated brake disc: diameter 330 mm - p/n 7L6 615 301 D (left), 7L6 615 302 D (right)
brake disc thickness: 32 mm, wear limit: 30 mm
Brake pads thickness 11 mm not including backing plate - p/n 7L6 698 151 or 7L6 698 151 D
Wear limit: 2 mm not including backing plate
V10 
Ventilated brake disc: diameter 350 mm - p/n 7L6 615 301 E (left), 7L6 615 302 E (right)
brake disc thickness: 34 mm, wear limit: 32 mm
Brake pads thickness 11 mm not including backing plate - 7L6 698 151 A or 7L6 698 151 E
Wear limit: 2 mm not including backing plate
*Rear Brake specs:*
R5 
brake disc: diameter 314 mm - p/n 7L6 615 601 E
Brake disc thickness: 22 mm
Wear limit: 18 mm
Brake drum: diameter 185 mm
Wear limit 186 mm
Brake pad thickness: 13 mm not including backing plate - p/n 7L6 698 451
Wear limit: 2 mm not including backing plate
V8, V10, (V6?) 
disc diameter 330 mm - p/n 7L6 615 601 D
Brake disc thickness: 28 mm
Wear limit: 26 mm
Brake drum: diameter 210 mm
Wear limit 211 mm
Brake pad thickness 11 mm not including backing plate - p/n 7L6 698 451 A or 7L0 698 451 A
Wear limit: 2 mm not including backing plate
*LATER MODEL TOUAREG INFO:*
1LE are 330 mm front brakes. However, the pads are not the same as the earlier pads for the 1LC. The 1LE uses a 4 piston caliper rather than the earlier 6 piston caliper. 
1KQ (I think 1kg is an error on your part) are 330 mm rear brakes. However, the pads are not the same as the earlier pads for the 1KF. The 1KQ uses a 1 piston caliper rather than the earlier 2 piston caliper. 



_Modified by spockcat at 10:37 PM 7-4-2009_


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## Archimedes (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (jinxegg)*

Well, I disagree with everyone on this thread about needing rotors. Many heavy 4WD vehicles out there chew through rotors in 25k miles. My LandCruiser goes through them every 20k. And yes, I have checked the thickness and I've tried resurfacing old rotors a couple times but it always resulted in short life and problems. My neighbor's Cherokee needs rotors every 20k as well. Until we get a lot of Tregs out there with 30k+ miles, it's too early to say what the life of the rotors are going to be on these things.
A lot of it has to do with the way you drive it as well. 25k of city/suburban driving where you're stopping a lot is going to be a lot harder on the brakes than someone who commutes a long distance. Stopping these big pigs over and over takes its toll on the rotors.
I will say that $360 for two rotors seems really high. I think I pay $95 each for the ones on my Cruiser.


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## matthewsjl (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Archimedes)*

I would agree that it is a little too early to tell the life of rotors based on the evidence out there - however, I would expect them to last at least 40,000 miles (and be surprised if they don't).
What I would expect is that the pads should go before the rotors. Pads are generally a softer material than the rotors and will wear quicker.
John.


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## TREGinginCO (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (matthewsjl)*

I have been driving 4WD vehicles (and heavy ones at that) and have always gotten 50,000 miles-plus on the brake rotors.
If anyone is only getting 20 to 25k on rotors - a couple of things are happening.
1: You're extremely hard on your brake - in which case you're wearing pads out about every 8k miles.
2: You're towing heavy loads - which goes back to my first point.
I have a cousin who has an F350 Super Duty and tows about 15-thousand pounds of stuff several times a month thru mountains, off-road trails etc and he didn't have to replace rotors 'till he hit 65k.


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## Archimedes (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TREGinginCO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TREGinginCO* »_
If anyone is only getting 20 to 25k on rotors - a couple of things are happening.
1: You're extremely hard on your brake - in which case you're wearing pads out about every 8k miles.
2: You're towing heavy loads - which goes back to my first point.


Well we do neither. Normal driving, don't tow anymore. And I'm not alone in this experience. I've talked to other LandCruiser owners and they've had the same experience, total brake job every 20-30k. And Jeep Grand Cherokee owners I've met tell me the same thing.
In Jeep's case I believe I read that it is largely due to the fact that the brakes they put on those vehicles in recent years were simply not big enough for the weight of the vehicle and that caused premature wear of the pads and rotors. I can tell you the brakes on my neighbor's Laredo are much smaller than those on my Cruiser.
In 160,000 miles I think I've had my Cruiser rotors either replaced or resurfaced 6 or 7 times. The resurfacings didn't work out so well (high spots and vibration) and were almost as expensive as new rotors, so I just started doing new ones.


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## matthewsjl (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TREGinginCO)*

On one of my (very European) cars, the rotors started to show signs of wear at 45k and eventually needed replacement at 85k.
One dealer suggested that they be replaced at 45k until they found out that it was a lease car on full maintenance (and lease companies are strict about replacement of parts before they are worn out).
On the above car I was going through pads every 20k miles. Pads should always go before rotors.
The more I read, it is typical that dealers will try to push rotors at the same time as pads. Often it is only the pads that are worn to near the limit.
I think somebody else said earlier that the Treg has a brake pad wear sensor. This should indicate when the pads require replacement. I could possibly understand a service department advising replacement without this if they thought the pads would not last until the next service.
John.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sea59sea* »_Dealer claims as does the brake shop, that the rotors are "throw aways" which means they are thin and need to be replaced every time new pads are put on. Shop says this is common on European cars.

Your dealer is full of crap! They don't know what they're talking about. Those are Brembo rotors on your Treg, as in ultra high performance. They are nothing close to "throw aways". Do they really think VW would want to put weak brakes on a 2.5 ton SUV? Not.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (matthewsjl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *matthewsjl* »_Pads should always go before rotors.
The more I read, it is typical that dealers will try to push rotors at the same time as pads. Often it is only the pads that are worn to near the limit.
I think somebody else said earlier that the Treg has a brake pad wear sensor. This should indicate when the pads require replacement. I could possibly understand a service department advising replacement without this if they thought the pads would not last until the next service.
John.

Exactly, pads will need replacement before rotors. No need to replace the rotors unless they are either warped or cracked. Certainly not at 25k miles. These people think they're dealing with a bunch of dummies that know absolutely nothing about automobiles. Tell them if they throw in a set of new rims you'll buy the brakes. Make them the 19s.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Archimedes)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Archimedes* »_
Well we do neither. Normal driving, don't tow anymore. And I'm not alone in this experience. I've talked to other LandCruiser owners and they've had the same experience, total brake job every 20-30k. And Jeep Grand Cherokee owners I've met tell me the same thing.
In Jeep's case I believe I read that it is largely due to the fact that the brakes they put on those vehicles in recent years were simply not big enough for the weight of the vehicle and that caused premature wear of the pads and rotors. I can tell you the brakes on my neighbor's Laredo are much smaller than those on my Cruiser.
In 160,000 miles I think I've had my Cruiser rotors either replaced or resurfaced 6 or 7 times. The resurfacings didn't work out so well (high spots and vibration) and were almost as expensive as new rotors, so I just started doing new ones.


I think in your case it's an issue with the brakes being utilized for the Landcruiser. Same thing with the Grand Cherokees. Those vehicles definitely are not using Brembo grade brakes.


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## igster (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

I had only front pads and sensors and turned the rotors at 20K for 
$ 475.00....







they told me that 20k to 25k was normal.....I am in the same boat as you.. I drive a lot...and you know that So.Cal freeways some times dont move so I am on the brakes a lot......


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

I commute between Costa Mesa and Torrance daily. I know what you mean by the stop-and-go traffic but the SoCal freeways are not going to do that much wear on the brakes. I'm at about 20k and just had servicing done. Absolutely nothing wrong with my pads/rotors. Which dealer are you using?


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## igster (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

I use Pacific VW in Hawthorne....they are good... what ever you do don't go to Power in Torrance.......Kinda funny I live in Torrance and drive around most of the day in the OC


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

Hmmm. I've actually heard the same thing about Pacific to tell you the truth. I actually first test drove the Touareg there. I did not care for the sales manager at all. The newbie who helped me out (who unfortunately reports to said mgr.) was an alright guy however. The only time I went to Power was to get a license plate frame and that was enough to tell me not to get my rig serviced there. Something about that place.








Did you ask the guys at Pacific for measurements and/or your old parts? I would not trust what they say is "normal". How do they even know what's normal for such a new vehicle anyway?
Btw, I've had pretty good experience at Commonwealth in Santa Ana.


_Modified by TCinOC at 4:45 PM 11-30-2004_


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## igster (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

Ya sly..... I like my dealer to speak english







....No I screwed up did not ask them for the old parts.....had to wait for sensors for about 4 days....they gave me a loaner......I was there first brake job......


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

And they're telling you what's normal though it's their first brake job. What's wrong with that picture? I don't remember the name of the sales mgr over there. Actually I think it was the assistant..oh well..long forgotten. Funny I ended up going all the way to Van Nuys to buy mine eventually.


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## igster (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

actually the light came on on my MFI......I bought mine up North and had it flatbeded down here.... got a better deal...they did not have what I was looking for here in So Cal... I bout mine in Aug 04......


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

I was in Scottsdale over the Thanksgiving weekend and they were the ones who said the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. Then back in southern California my local brake shop told me the samething. They agreed to check the brakes. While taking off the tires they found the Key Wrench missing from the back near the spare. We looked all over for it.
Just a month ago at 20,000 miles I had to have new tires put on at my dealer in Huntington Beach, so...figured out they forgot to replace the Key Wrench. Called them and drove to the dealer. They agreed they failed to replace the Key and surprise the tech found it in his workbox!!! Thank goodness I did not have a flat tire. But....asked about brakes and again was told the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. There cost: pads, rotors, senors, and labor per axle ---$780, yes, $780. I plan on using my local shop and NOT replacing the rotors. My deal with them is they will let me watch so I can change my own pads.


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

I was in Scottsdale over the Thanksgiving weekend and they were the ones who said the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. Then back in southern California my local brake shop told me the samething. They agreed to check the brakes. While taking off the tires they found the Key Wrench missing from the back near the spare. We looked all over for it.
Just a month ago at 20,000 miles I had to have new tires put on at my dealer in Huntington Beach, so...figured out they forgot to replace the Key Wrench. Called them and drove to the dealer. They agreed they failed to replace the Key and surprise the tech found it in his workbox!!! Thank goodness I did not have a flat tire. But....asked about brakes and again was told the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. There cost: pads, rotors, senors, and labor per axle ---$780, yes, $780. I plan on using my local shop and NOT replacing the rotors. My deal with them is they will let me watch so I can change my own pads.


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

I was in Scottsdale over the Thanksgiving weekend and they were the ones who said the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. Then back in southern California my local brake shop told me the samething. They agreed to check the brakes. While taking off the tires they found the Key Wrench missing from the back near the spare. We looked all over for it.
Just a month ago at 20,000 miles I had to have new tires put on at my dealer in Huntington Beach, so...figured out they forgot to replace the Key Wrench. Called them and drove to the dealer. They agreed they failed to replace the Key and surprise the tech found it in his workbox!!! Thank goodness I did not have a flat tire. But....asked about brakes and again was told the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. There cost: pads, rotors, senors, and labor per axle ---$780, yes, $780. I plan on using my local shop and NOT replacing the rotors. My deal with them is they will let me watch so I can change my own pads.


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## matthewsjl (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

Do you have a micrometer? You should be able to check the thickness off the discs yourself easily. Pads I can understand at that mileage but not the rotors.
What is the reason that they use to justify the replacement of the rotors?
I see at the top of the thread that you mention that the brakes are squealing. As long as it's not the metal of the pad backing directly contacting the disc (which probably would lead to terrible braking performance and damaged rotors), the noise is probably due to the pads vibrating in the caliper under braking. In the UK, this is cured by putting a little coper grease on the back of the pads to damp the vibration.
John.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (matthewsjl)*

Sounds to me like typical pad deposit buildup leading to the squeaking. A few stop-and-go runs should take care of that.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sea59sea* »_I was in Scottsdale over the Thanksgiving weekend and they were the ones who said the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. Then back in southern California my local brake shop told me the samething. They agreed to check the brakes. While taking off the tires they found the Key Wrench missing from the back near the spare. We looked all over for it.
Just a month ago at 20,000 miles I had to have new tires put on at my dealer in Huntington Beach, so...figured out they forgot to replace the Key Wrench. Called them and drove to the dealer. They agreed they failed to replace the Key and surprise the tech found it in his workbox!!! Thank goodness I did not have a flat tire. But....asked about brakes and again was told the rotors need to be replaced with the pads. There cost: pads, rotors, senors, and labor per axle ---$780, yes, $780. I plan on using my local shop and NOT replacing the rotors. My deal with them is they will let me watch so I can change my own pads.

You must be referring to McKenna in HB. Very strange that they're telling you it's an all or nothing deal (pads/rotors).


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## livinglarge (Oct 11, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

My dealer told me, and I have no reason to not believe him, that VW designed the rotors to wear at the same rate as the pads. That gives better, more consistent braking and is why Tregs have so much brake dust on the wheels after a few miles. He is telling me this when the vehicle is brand new, not when I need brake service so I have no reason to doubt him. He went to the intro of the vehicle and VW was very specific about this beign how it was designed. If you are concerned about these types of costs, you need to ask right up front average break life and cost to replace.


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## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (livinglarge)*

I hate to say it but you getting it up the rear. In all my vehicles I have never replace rotors just pads. I tow a lot with the T and had 24k on my last ones and my brake wear was about half. I cannot see you needing a brake job unless your MFI is saying so. And even at 25k I wouldn't believe it. I think there has to be something wrong. And as far a replacing rotors it's all a sham. Rotors only need to be replaced if and I mean if your thickness falls below minimum specs thats the only reason. Never turn rotors unless you have a vibration when braking. And then sometimes if it's minimal I just let it go. With the size of the T's rotors (thickness) I cannot see having the rotors warp. They should be good for at least 150-200k miles.
Go out and buy a caliper and measure your rotors yourself. Spockcat gave you the tollerances. 2mm is a lot of metal to wear off.
And for those of you who talk about Jeep Grand Cherokees. I have one and never have had the rotor replaced or turned. Yes they are small for the Vehicle but I have only replace them once and that was at 80k and only pads. And I towed with it more than I every towed with the T. If you turn rotors it makes the metal thinner which makes them easier to heat up and warp. Usually a rotor can be turned at least two times before it needs to be replaced. Resurfacing a rotor that is not warped it hogwash. Because after 1k of driving with braking it will be right back to where it was. I now have 120k on the JGC and have no brake problems. 
The trick to saving your brakes are as follows. Never brake over bumps (pot holes, speed bumps) this cause all kinds of stress on pads and calipers. After applying your brakes in a hard stop never let the pads sit on one spot of the rotor this is what causes warping because the hot pads on that one spot of the rotor cools of slower than the rest of the rotor. Always creeps slowly after a hard stop; this will distribute the heat of the pads over the entire rotor and minimise warping. Never let a brake shop replace your rotors because they say that is spec. Never trust a dealer who says your brake rotor wear out at the same time your pads do. The only time I have heard of this happening is on F1 or Indy cars since they use Carbon Fiber Rotors. Though I do not know what kind of material are used on T-regs brake pads most likely they are carbon metalic which wears much greater than a steel rotor. I could believe if they were ceramic that the rotors would need to be replace with the pads since ceramic pads last a lot longer and by longer I mean 100-150k miles.
And the reason you have so much brake dust is because you have huge brake pads. No other reason.
Just my two cents take it with a grain of salt.








here are some places to buy brake pads.
http://www.drivewire.com/volks....html
http://replacement.autopartswa...False
_Modified by trollhole at 9:54 AM 12-1-2004_


_Modified by trollhole at 10:11 AM 12-1-2004_


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## jinxegg (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (livinglarge)*

Are you flashing 'bucks" around every time you go to your dealer??
There is nowhere in the service manual of the Treg that rotors are replaced at the same intervals as pads and moreover there is no mention that rotors are replaced at 10k or 20k services....


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (trollhole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trollhole* »_And the reason you have so much brake dust is because you have huge brake pads. No other reason.
Just my two cents take it with a grain of salt.








here are some places to buy brake pads.
http://www.drivewire.com/volks....html
http://replacement.autopartswa...False
_Modified by trollhole at 9:54 AM 12-1-2004_

_Modified by trollhole at 10:11 AM 12-1-2004_

I agree. Just because there's a lot of brake dust doesn't mean anything in regards to the rotors. These dealers are unbelievable! For the person who said there's no reason not to believe him...think about that for a moment. They're giving you the lube job up front is all that is. Please find the part of the owner's manual that clearly states pads and rotors will always need to be replaced at the same time. I'm sure many people would like to see this.


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## FASTER345 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

"And the reason you have so much brake dust is because you have huge brake pads. No other reason."
Actually, I bought a Brembo 'big brake' kit for my 525 Touring (station wagon) and the geniuses mistakenly sold me Porterfield rally-grade pads. Worked great, but at what cost? Those things chewed through my Brembo rotors in about a month depositing a thick black dust that when combined with a light rain turned into a black cement that never fully came off the wheels. I still see the remnants of that effing dust. So it *IS* possible to go through rotors in no time, but for this to happen with EOM pads/rotors is strange. Perhaps VW changed pad material at some point hence different wear experience for different cars??? I have been using Hawk HPS pads ever since on all my cars and they work great with no dust or squeal.
Speaking of Power VW in Torrance, I got an email from them inviting me to come down and check out their Volkswagons. Volkswagons??? If they can't spell their own name...oh boy. While there I asked them about a V6 with Xenons, and was told by the manager that V6s are not available with Xenons. I told him I had driven one at another dealership and he was very surprised because he said he had never seen a V6 with them. Perhaps it was his first day. Cheers.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (FASTER345)*

Lol. I think one of their sales guys once told me I couldn't get a silver with gray interior Touareg.


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## igster (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (FASTER345)*

It would help if Power had people that spoke english......







and undersood VW.... I think they are more into HYNDIS or what ever else they sell there...


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (igster)*

Yeah the big POWER HYUNDAI next to the VW sign tends to scare me away.


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## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (trollhole)*

Find out the truth today. Do NOT need new brakes!!! Had the local brake shop take the wheels off while I looked on. Less than HALF of the front pads are gone as stated by the two brake guys and my own eyes. Even more of the pads left in the rear. The rotors appeared OK. So.....it would appear that the brakes are good for about 50,000 miles. Now...must solve the noise from the right front. The two guys thought it might be the bearings or the sensor plastic rubbing or "they just don't know". They suggested I take it to the dealer since it should be covered under warranty.
At least the dealer can NOT nail me for new brakes and "they owe me one" because of the key lock issue. But the noise continues?????


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## ksand (May 17, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

Glad to hear the brakes turned out to be ok! That's one issue I would not want to deal with.
Just out of curiosity, did your dealer actually look at your brakes and tell you you needed new pads and rotors, or did they just price them out based on the fact that there seemed to be a brake squeal? Forgive me if you mentioned that, but I skimmed through this thread again and couldn't find a definitive answer.
I find it hard to believe they would try to put one over on you like that, and on a relatively new Touareg, no less.







If they did, time to find a new dealer!
Good luck to you.


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## TREGinginCO (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

Isn't it good to know that you nailed your dealer who was trying to STEAL from you??!?!?!?!?!?
Now you can get your problem fixed.... hopefully (fingers crossed)

Good Luck!


----------



## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sea59sea* »_Find out the truth today. Do NOT need new brakes!!! Had the local brake shop take the wheels off while I looked on. Less than HALF of the front pads are gone as stated by the two brake guys and my own eyes. Even more of the pads left in the rear. The rotors appeared OK. So.....it would appear that the brakes are good for about 50,000 miles. Now...must solve the noise from the right front. The two guys thought it might be the bearings or the sensor plastic rubbing or "they just don't know". They suggested I take it to the dealer since it should be covered under warranty.
At least the dealer can NOT nail me for new brakes and "they owe me one" because of the key lock issue. But the noise continues?????

Good for you. I'm glad this has finally been settled. This whole story about needing new brakes at 20k mile business was getting under my skin. Just shows you that there are too many dealers out there full of you know what.


----------



## sea59sea (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

I went to three dealers, the one where I purchased (HB) and (Capo) and (Scottsdale).
I just discussed brakes and prices. Both said it was normal to need new brakes @ 20,000-25,000 miles due to the weight of the vehicle and very likey to need new rotors.
Local brake shop took off wheels and we looked to confirm no need for brakes. But....I bet when I take to the dealer for the sound (not the squeaking from dust) they will tell me I need new brakes. 
All three dealers did say that the warning light would come on when it was really necessary to change pads.


----------



## SoBayJake (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (FASTER345)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FASTER345* »_Speaking of Power VW in Torrance, I got an email from them inviting me to come down and check out their Volkswagons. Volkswagons??? If they can't spell their own name...oh boy. While there I asked them about a V6 with Xenons, and was told by the manager that V6s are not available with Xenons. I told him I had driven one at another dealership and he was very surprised because he said he had never seen a V6 with them. Perhaps it was his first day. Cheers.

I'm of of the few, it would seem, that bought my car at Power, but I got the car I liked and the deal I wanted, but I know not to service there now.
I had called my sales person ("internet director") back to ask about some things, but got someone else's voicemail. So I called direct, asked if she still worked there, was told yes, and transferred. Again, I got the same wrong person's voicemail, and this woman claimed her title was the "internet director" so I figured my salesperson left. No biggie.
Then I get an email saying (paraphrasing) "we see your request from Aug, and apologize if we were unable to meet your needs, and would like to invite you back to try to get you the vehicle you desire." Funny thing, this is from the SAME woman I bought from, who, 3 months later, is BACK at the dealership. So I emailed back saying "uh, ya thanks, but I bought a car from YOU on Aug 14th"















And I'm still getting invites to buy a car...one $45+K car isn't enough? I need two?


----------



## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (SoBayJake)*

Total idiots at that dealership! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## mr.vw (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (sea59sea)*

ok....now a word from the "stealerships" perspective.....over the last few years VW(and other euro car company's) have changed the way we made/used pads and rotors....In order to improve and maintain brake performance(over the long haul), brake pad material tends to be harder... therefore they tend to chew through rotors a bit faster. The reason that dealership now recomend replacement of rotors (as well as pads) has more to due with liability, saftey and cost than anything. Also, most dealerships are NOT equipped to turn rotor's anymore....if rotor's are marginal or questionable, it become cheaper to replace them, than turn them....we tossed our brake lathe years ago...


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (mr.vw)*

Have to disagree.
The rotors in question are so overpriced, you had better be measuring them before recommending their replacement. Your techs have the wear limits in their manuals and I gave the wear limits HERE.
If the pads were chewing up the rotors, then you would have iron dust on the wheels which would turn red-orange when it got wet. I mainly see black dust on my wheels. Are you sure the pads are not actaully softer? Racing cars use hard pads. Hard pads require some use to heat up before they work as intended. Hard pads on a street car are not advised. See here: http://www.sierraracing.com/brakepads.html 



_Modified by spockcat at 10:56 AM 12-6-2004_


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

I also can't imagine why the pads supplied with our Touaregs would be of race caliber. I'm sure they're somewhere in the middle. I recall seeing Pagid on my pads, but don't remember the numbers. It's also easy for a dealer just to say buy a new set of rotors and pads to be on the safe side. Hell, if they're gonna pay for it, fine. Otherwise, show me the measurements and parts!! As I said many times before, we're talking Brembos and they're not going to wear out so easily. I don't care what people say about their experiences with Jeep Cherokees and Landcruisers. It's not the same vehicle, nor is it the same brake setup.


----------



## Archimedes (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

He didn't say the brakes were of race caliber, he simply said they were harder than previous pads.
What I noticed over time was, with labor rates increasing, the cost to turn and resurface rotors on my Cruiser began to approach the cost of just replacing them. And every time I had a resurfacing done, I wound up with high spots and vibration that sent me back to the dealer. So I just started putting new ones on, and after that I found that my brakes felt much better. However, they're much cheaper for my Cruiser than for the Treg.
Simple solution here, if people don't agree with their dealer, is to simply go to an Indy shop and have them just do pads. Then don't cry if it doesn't work out too well.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Archimedes)*

I agree as far as taking it to an indy brake shop for advise. As you alluded to, it's not cheap to replace the oem brakes on our Touaregs. I do think there is a slight justification for the cost in comparison to say a "Cruiser" however. Brembos are just a better grade of brakes than most.


----------



## trollhole (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Archimedes)*

I just find it hard to believe VW would but on pads and rotors that only have a life expectancy of 20 to 25k.


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## JiggyJoe (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (trollhole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trollhole* »_I just find it hard to believe VW would but on pads and rotors that only have a life expectancy of 20 to 25k.









A couple years ago I had a hard time believing they were producing a 5300 lb SUV for $40k+.








We're getting 20k service done within the next month and I'll post about their comments on the brakes, if any. On a side note, I'm good friends with a mechanic and in previous discussions he's stated that rotors are rarely turned anymore, simply replaced, and that most shops aren't even equipped to do this anymore.


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## cybulman (Dec 18, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Further to what Spock writes..if the stealer does not have the equipment, they can send them/rotors out to be turned to specs. 
I had a dealer do that once.
Cy


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## mr.vw (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

overpriced by what standards?


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## livinglarge (Oct 11, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (mr.vw)*

Mr. VW, thank you. I believe that is all my dealer was trying to say and it makes sense to me. I never said that rotors and pads should only go 25,000 miles, but if at 50,000 I needed a brake job and rotors were past 60 to 70% gone, I'd replace them to. I've never had a set of turned rotors that were as smooth or held up as long as new ones.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (mr.vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mr.vw* »_overpriced by what standards?









How much does Langen charge for the pads and rotors? Here is what the starter of this thread said about his dealer:

_Quote, originally posted by *sea59sea* »_After just 25,000 miles the sensors are squeeking. The dealer wants $200 for a pair of pads, plus $180 labor PLUS $360 for a pair of rotors. Total is $740 for just one axle. 

If I go to Tirerack.com for Touareg brakes, they don't have anything. But if I use a 2000 BMW 540i as an example, they have new Brembo rotors for $100 each. They have a selection of pads from $36 to $98 per axle. 
2002 ML55 rotors: $71 each, pads: $67 to $139 per axle.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Has anyone checked with Brembo directly? Actually, Brembo America is located down the road from where I live, literally. Never actually looked for their building but noticed their address is near where I live.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

Actually you can get the front and rear rotors for $100 each from: https://www.1stvwparts.com/ 
sea59sea's dealer is a real STEALER by charging $180/rotor.


_Modified by spockcat at 3:00 PM 12-6-2004_


----------



## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Oh okay, that's not too bad. Parts departments and stealers get away with overcharging customers. I'll remember this link when I'm in need for new brakes. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

Why are there no part numbers associated with the components on that website for !st VW Parts?
I did notice the front rotors were on sale for $93.75!! Sounds much better than $180.
Btw, I contacted someone at Brembo and they said due to agreements with Volkswagen, he cannot provide me part number or pricing information. Oh well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TCinOC* »_Why are there no part numbers associated with the components on that website for !st VW Parts?
I did notice the front rotors were on sale for $93.75!! Sounds much better than $180.
Btw, I contacted someone at Brembo and they said due to agreements with Volkswagen, he cannot provide me part number or pricing information. Oh well.









I've updated my post on the first page of this thread to include all the part numbers for the rotors and pads. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...54969


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## Archimedes (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_Actually you can get the front and rear rotors for $100 each from: https://www.1stvwparts.com/ 
_Modified by spockcat at 3:00 PM 12-6-2004_

That's more like it. And at that price, given how much shops charge for labor to resurface rotors, it make sense to just replace them. Dealers will charge you $50-75 per rotor to resurface old ones. Why do that when you can buy new ones for $75-$100 and not have to deal with the inevitable high spots from resurfacing?


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_
I've updated my post on the first page of this thread to include all the part numbers for the rotors and pads. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...54969 

Excellent! In the meantime, who's going to be the first one to go ahead and replace their brakes??


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## mdjak (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*

Just my one cent contribution. I now have 42,000 miles and am not in need of brakes yet. When I do need them, I will buy the parts from the link posted by spock and have him do them.


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (mdjak)*

Hmmm..how much is Spock charging for brake jobs these days?


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## TCinOC (Nov 25, 2003)

So here's some of the correspondence i've had with someone at Brembo. I will leave his name out of this.

_Tim:
Take everything I say with a grain of salt—I do not work directly on German-market vehicles. I am the OEM Account Manager for Big Three vehicles, and mostly supercars (Ford GT, Dodge Viper…) at that.
Wear varies from vehicle to vehicle, but considering that Touareg is an SUV, I would consider 20000 miles a reasonable lifespan for your pads. Target life for some other programs I’ve worked on was 40000km (25000 miles) but those targets are always optimistic. Driving styles and conditions always differ between drivers.
Discs should be checked for minimum thickness and cracking. Brembo discs always have a minimum thickness stamped on the outer ring. Check this with a micrometer. Regarding cracking, we allow cracks to be 2/3 of the annulus (or “ring”) height, provided they don’t touch the inner our outer edge. Cracking this severe on an undrilled disc would be unlikely on your vehicle. That said, you should know that some manufacturers recommend replacing discs at the same time as pads regardless of condition, so if your pads are wearing at 20k miles, it might be reasonable to change the discs at the same time.
With regards to pricing, I acknowledge service pricing is always high—for our stuff and others. I drive a 2004 Audi S4 and those brake parts cost more than most Brembo components! VW determines this pricing and we have no influence. There may be alternative sources for OE replacements, but they are probably not Brembo factory components. To my knowledge, we only sell directly to the OE for service components. If you can find a Brembo disc cheaper, by all means do it… but if not I suggest staying with your dealer, regardless of the cost. Of course you’ll think I’m biased, but this is the reality of owning a premium vehicle. Premium vehicles command premium pricing—both in the dealership and at the service counter. Your ownership experience will be better for having the right parts on the car.
For the record, $180 for a disc isn’t bad. Ask your VW guy what a Phaeton front disc costs!
Hope this helps, and enjoy the VW. I’m a die-hard VW / Audi guy, and envy your ride.
Regards,
xxxx_


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## febrile (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: (TCinOC)*

I just got all my brakes replaced: brake pads, rotors and brake sensors x 4. I got all parts from alretta.com, "ClubTouareg rotor/pad offer". It was a real good deal when compared to the VW dealers.







I then had all parts installed at brake max here in Tucson, AZ for just another $159.00. The savings from this deal saved me over $1,000.00 at least. The brakes work fine, no complaint from me yet in the first 100 miles. The guy I ordered my supplies from and discussed parts for the Touareg at alretta.com named Geoff, nice guy with familiarity of Touareg and forums. Anyone who needs brakes repaired would benefit from his guidance and supplies. Anyone going to VW dealer is crazy, or needs help spending their money.


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## Lief (Apr 17, 2001)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Anyone have the updated codes for a 2007 model? I have the 1.5 Touareg with the fsi vr6. I wonder what size front brakes I have?
I see codes:
1kg, 1le, and 1be . none match the post.
So, do I have 330 MM front brakes or 350 MM?


_Modified by Lief at 4:09 PM 7-4-2009_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Lief)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lief* »_Anyone have the updated codes for a 2007 model? I have the 1.5 Touareg with the fsi vr6. I wonder what size front brakes I have?
I see codes:
1kg, 1le, and 1be . none match the post.
So, do I have 330 MM front brakes or 350 MM?

_Modified by Lief at 4:09 PM 7-4-2009_

1LE are 330 mm front brakes. However, the pads are not the same as the earlier pads for the 1LC. The 1LE uses a 4 piston caliper rather than the earlier 6 piston caliper. 
1KQ (I think 1kg is an error on your part) are 330 mm rear brakes. However, the pads are not the same as the earlier pads for the 1KF. The 1KQ uses a 1 piston caliper rather than the earlier 2 piston caliper.


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## RoutanDaddy (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Actually, the 1KQ uses a two piston caliper, one opposing one, as the 1KF rears are two opposing two.
Sad to say, the truck is still as large and the brakes are materially smaller in size, more like a Toyota Corolla...front, perhaps, but still not what makes for long wearing brakes... the distinguishing feature to look for is the twin pin design that mounts the pads within the caliper. It mirrors the design for the 1LE fronts as well, which bear the same design style.
I expect the aftermarket to launch 1LE brake pads within the next three months, as only Pagid offers them today. The 1KQ rear brakes are currently available aftermarket.
Exoect as much as 50% fewer mileage on average before wearout with the downsized brakes.
Be aware that many vehicles in the US and Canada are equipped with the old 1KF rear brakes even thru the 2009 model year. There is almost no rhyme or reason to the deployment, except perhaps that there are more of the older style brakes sold in the northern tier states and in states with harsher climates ?? - I haven't seen a 1KQ system here in Massachusetts for instance.
So, Lief, to answer your question foremost, you have 1LE front brakes with either 1KF rear or 1KQ rear... you would need to look at the RPO tag in the truck compartment near the spare tire for these two codes side-by-side in the middle row area of the tag, on the left side at the center. They butt up to a "3FE" code.









_Modified by RoutanDaddy at 10:35 PM 7-4-2009_


_Modified by RoutanDaddy at 10:35 PM 7-4-2009_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (RoutanDaddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RoutanDaddy* »_Actually, the 1KQ uses a two piston caliper, one opposing one, as the 1KF rears are two opposing two.

The ETKA illustration is wrong. It only shows one.


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## Lief (Apr 17, 2001)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

Thanks for the replies!







So should I be looking for pads that cover a 2008 model? Will that cover these updated calipers? I'm thinking that my late model 2007 must use 2008/2009 brake parts?
Yes, it's 1KQ for the rear and 1LE for the front. No wear lights yet, but, the pads look very low.
Last question do I need any special tools such as the caliper turn in tool for the rear calipers? I already have a triple square kit and a full torx set along with a metric socket set. Last set of brakes I replaced was on a mk4 GTI. I know that the truck is much heaver but I am motivated to do the job myself to save $ and know I have done the job correctly.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Lief)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lief* »_Thanks for the replies!







So should I be looking for pads that cover a 2008 model? Will that cover these updated calipers? I'm thinking that my late model 2007 must use 2008/2009 brake parts?










_Quote, originally posted by *RoutanDaddy* »_
I expect the aftermarket to launch 1LE brake pads within the next three months, as only Pagid offers them today. The 1KQ rear brakes are currently available aftermarket.


That's the problem. There are no front aftermarket pads for your Touareg yet. So you have to go OEM. According to this post, there are aftermarket rear pads. But what you probably need are the fronts. So you are stick with going to the dealer for them.
Also, I don't think you can just look for pads for 2007, 2008, 2009 models. I suspect that the V8 carried on with the better calipers. So what you need are 2007, 2008, 2009 V6 model brakes.


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## Lief (Apr 17, 2001)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (spockcat)*

so no special tools?


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## RoutanDaddy (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Lief)*

As far as I know, one still needs a 16mm Triple Square and a 5mm T-S. 
Take a look at this thread on ClubTouareg.com for the balance of these parts: http://www.clubtouareg.com/for....html
It is not uncommon to run through these brakes (with your "de-contented" brake design) in under 25K miles. The swept area of the pads is much less than the previous type, yet the vehicle has not become appreciably lighter.
To Spockcat, the copies of VW fiche I have been provided show the 1KQ as one caliper piston per caliper half-body, it takes two halves to make the whole assembly; by this rule of thumb, you have three piston fronts and two piston rears (?!) It may be that there has been a change in descriptive conventionality, but Brembo needs to be a multi-piston design because they are all fixed caliper types, only the pistons move to force the brake pads into position. The body is stationary - in a traditional single piston design, either the caliper body is suspended on pins or it floats against the knuckle. 
Brembo is always a fixed body type.


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## Lief (Apr 17, 2001)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (RoutanDaddy)*

Ok just got the check brakes warning today.
Does anyone know using vag-com what module to interface to find which sensor has tripped?
I want to see if I need to replace the front brakes, rears or both.
thanks again!


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## geremy (Sep 17, 2003)

It won't tell you. Easiest way probably is to check your discs for a significant lip at the edge. My 2007 had the light go off last week, and all 4 discs have a big lip.


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## Lief (Apr 17, 2001)

*Re: (geremy)*

Thanks for your reply ...
My fronts had a pretty noticeable lip. The rears do not.
Where did you get your replacement brake parts?


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (Lief)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lief* »_Thanks for your reply ...
My fronts had a pretty noticeable lip. The rears do not.
Where did you get your replacement brake parts?


http://www.clubtouareg.com/for....html


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## Ted K (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (FASTER345)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FASTER345* »_At 25K you should NOT need new rotors...unless you are constantly braking like you're approaching the chicane on the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans







...or stock VW brake pads are EXTREMELY aggressive. Which is it??? I've had slightly smaller Brembo rotors for 80,000 on a 4000 lb car and no need to replace yet. Cheers.

I needed new rotors at 18k. Plus, they are composite rotors, so they cannot be ground.


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## Ted K (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TCinOC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TCinOC* »_
Your dealer is full of crap! They don't know what they're talking about. Those are Brembo rotors on your Treg, as in ultra high performance. They are nothing close to "throw aways". Do they really think VW would want to put weak brakes on a 2.5 ton SUV? Not.

Sorry, but you are not right. This is a very heavy vehicle, that if you drive alot of stop and go traffic, like I do, the brakes do not last more than 20k. Composite rotors cannot be resurfaced. They need to be replaced.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Ted K)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ted K* »_
I needed new rotors at 18k. Plus, they are composite rotors, so they cannot be ground.

What do you mean by composite? Look like steel/cast iron to me.


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## RoutanDaddy (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Ted K)*

Ted -
What makes you think these are "composite" rotors? 
A composite rotor is made of two related but dissimilar metals, typically, the disc is cast iron, but the hat or insert that forms the back is made from stamped steel. In this country, Kelsey-Hayes created this technology to reduce the weight of the rotor, in a attempt to reduce the rotational inertia needed to be overcome during braking. Among other things it was designed to increase fuel economy and lower cost to produce in OEM quantity. 
But there was an unwanted side-effect: usual and customary repair techniques caused the rotor to be mishandled and the insert to commonly receive insult that warped the disc even from the retightening of the lug nuts. It became clear after enough millions of units were on the market that the negative issues outweighed the positive ones and so composite usage has waned dramatically. 
Are you aware that these are in fact full-cast rotors? No stamped steel back, no bi-metal design. A two piece rotor as is found in some racing designs, this is not.
Thought this might be of value to make clear...


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## Ted K (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (RoutanDaddy)*

Because one of my closest friends owns a shop and at least on my 08 this year, when I needed brakes, he thought he could cut/grind the rotors. That is until he pulled the wheels and called VW. They are composite material (not sure what the underlying materials are). They are made by brembo and cannot be resurfaced. I think it was the fronts only though. Rears may be standard iron. Not sure. I'll have to call him again and ask.


_Modified by Ted K at 7:42 PM 7-30-2009_


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## RoutanDaddy (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Ted K)*

Again, your terminology is incorrect. Your 2008 is no different than the previous model years in regards the rotor material. Front is no different than rear , either, in material specs. 
Brembo uses high-carbon iron, which provides several salutary benefits, but is softer in the overall pantheon of possible materials and does wear out apace with the brake pads. Hence, the rotors are not resurfaceable, but not because they are a bi-metal construction as I have outlined in my previous post. 
High-carbon iron is also called noise-dampening iron because it absorbs squeal producing resonant energy frequencies better than other harder materials used for rotor production. Use of this material provides the best co-efficients of friction for the brake system, but at an increased cost to the owner in terms of overall maintenance expenses. That is the privilege of owning the world's top commercial brake system!


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## Lief (Apr 17, 2001)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (RoutanDaddy)*

I replaced the pads all the way around, the rears were worst as the wear sensors had just rubbed though and were showing exposed wire. I did order new discs but the old ones were still within wear limits. I do expect that I will have to replace the disks next time, aka 20k miles from now. If you are doing this job for the very first time BE SURE to order new wear sensors. I ordered a set for the front but not for the back. Will need to still do this but for now I clipped the ones in the rear and disabled the light via VAG.
Next item needed to be replaced are tires!


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## Snap Orange Beetle (Dec 28, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Lief)*

I tried searching but at what point does the Brake Wear light come on. I took the car in for a 20,000 service, everything checked out. I was getting a intermittent squeal not to bad. Of course the vehicle failed to make a sound at dealership. Maybe 500 miles later car went in for loud squeal. They checked it out and said they didn't find anything and focused on suspension and relubed everything. Sound went away. Now for last 1000 miles vehicle squealing louder then ever. Dealer "claims 4mm on pads but no indicator light on dash. I agreed to let them swap front pads for an arm and a leg although it was same price as my service station.


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## TheWaterSkier (Dec 12, 2003)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (Snap Orange Beetle)*

I just did my front brakes on our 04 V8. The sensor slides into a slot on the pad and intrudes into the pad area about 2mm. From this, I expect you could drive at least 2000 miles after the indicator comes on in the MFD. Lucky for me, the company I work for sells Porsche parts and the Cyan S brakes are identical to the Touareg. I got rotors, pads, and sensors for $207.00 (fronts only) and did the work myself. I only needed to buy the Torx tool since I didn't have that size. But the info found here and on the other forum prepared me for the job which went smoothly. I'll be doing the rears in about 15 or 20 thousand miles. BTW, the dealer wanted 750.00+ for the job


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## definition56 (Jan 8, 2005)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (TheWaterSkier)*

I just checked out '08 T-reg brakes on http://www.1stvwparts.com and they are listed for: 
ROTORS (per side)
$96.33 - $112.29 
PADS (complete front set)
$120.41
SENSORS (per side)
$16.67

So total for brand-spankin-new, OEM VW parts and worst-case-scenario you are looking at $378.33 for parts if you were to replace everything. I'm not sure how you are mechanically but brake jobs are really a pretty simple procedure. I think I would go this route long before I would spread my cheeks for any dealer. I always replace rotors when doing pads on all my cars because I like it to be done and new and not worry about it.


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## ghent96 (Sep 4, 2009)

A dishonest dealer or brake shop will purposely bend the wear indicator strips or parts of the pads' bracket to contact the rotor sooner (at a lesser wear point) to ensure the brakes start squealing sooner. This brings the customer back in sooner for a very expensive brake job. It's a very lucrative repair for dealers. They spend virtually nothing in time and parts, but overcharge you drastically for the service.
Change pads first, WHEN you actually need them, not when the dealer cons you into believing you need them. After several rounds of pad changes, then measure your rotors and consider changing them if worn too thin or too rusted inside.
You DO NOT need to change rotors everytime you put on new pads. You DO NOT need to turn rotors either. This is a HUGE and very expensive myth used to con you into wasting money. The new pads adjust very quickly to the groove pattern already on your rotors, and will work just fine.


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## RoutanDaddy (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: (ghent96)*

Ouch!
You are filled with "wisdom" and inaccuracies about brake function and integrity. The Touareg has a distinctly different brake system than all other VW products - it has the brake system of a Ferrari, or if you prefer, a Rolls-Royce. REALLY... no hyperbole here. Same engineering, same components. Ever heard of Brembo, SpA?
Unfortunately, you are telling those of us who know otherwise that the moon is made of cheese, the Earth is flat, and ..... (fill in one's favorite white lie). 
Brake pads don't mold themselves to rotor faces, per se, they get worn irreparably into the rotor shape, which reduces the brake systems effectiveness; the Touareg doesn't have metal wear tabs; the Touareg brakes don't squeak in the span of their entire life under normal circumstance; the Touareg's Brembo brake design ensures that the rotors will be worn to or below minimum spec at the useful end of the pad's life; Touareg rotors are made of a softer, differential material called high-carbon iron, used largely by Brembo for its complimentary wear rate to the carbon-metallic pads they use.
I have written a lot on this before, as many others here know. I'm wish you well; but while I don't trust a dealer as far as I could throw him, and many do suggest brake work when it is not yet needed, still much of what you have blythely put forth in your post above is untrue and incorrect and requires rebuttal.
Regards,
Geoff 


_Modified by RoutanDaddy at 4:19 AM 1-9-2010_


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## geremy (Sep 17, 2003)

Easy way to tell if you need new rotors: If there is a noticeable protruding lip at the outer circumference of the face of the rotor, and your brake sensor goes off, they need to be changed.


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## Phagus (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: (RoutanDaddy)*

There is obviously a new expert on board with lots of free time?
The higher the carbon content of the steel, the more brittle it is. Iron starts as a pig iron, which contains 5% of carbon, and as brittle as hell. Not suitable for rotors, obviously.
Brembo rotors are close in their chemical composition to many other rotors. A lot vendors like to pair them with Pagid pads (this was the setup on earlier Touaregs). I do not know much about the composition of Pagid pads, but they eat through any rotor much quicker than others.
Cheers.


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## RoutanDaddy (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: (****us)*

Au contraire, ****us, an old expert, ...well schooled in the ways of the Touareg brake system.
Whether you like, or appreciate, the nomenclature "high-carbon", that's what it is and it provides a differentially different rotor surface than common rotor materials, especially those used in China. It is Brembo's preferred material for premium systems.
Please see the following for some explanation: http://bremboaftermarket.com/E....aspx
Ciao!










_Modified by RoutanDaddy at 5:37 PM 1-10-2010_


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## NickM (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: New brakes needed at 25,000 miles????? (definition56)*


_Quote, originally posted by *definition56* »_I just checked out '08 T-reg brakes on http://www.1stvwparts.com and they are listed for: 
ROTORS (per side)
$96.33 - $112.29 
PADS (complete front set)
$120.41
SENSORS (per side)
$16.67


Don't forget the hardware kit, you need to replace the spring clip and shoulder bolt, these parts are not reusable.


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## geremy (Sep 17, 2003)

It's easier just to get them from Geoff at Alretta Truck Parts. He sells the kit complete and even includes some tools you might need. His pricing is very good as well.


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## NickM (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: (geremy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *geremy* »_It's easier just to get them from Geoff at Alretta Truck Parts. He sells the kit complete and even includes some tools you might need. His pricing is very good as well.

Thats what I did...everything you need shows up in 1 box.no need to run around. Top quality parts that outperform the OEM setup.


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## Black06GLI (Jun 23, 2010)

How about specific specs for rotor dimensions and pads based on model years? As well as aftermarket pads and rotors?


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