# help tuning start up on MS-2



## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

hey all 
i just got my new MS ecu 
i went with the 3.57 board and went with MS-2 
i called diyautotune and they recommended it as the best under ms3 

got it in and it started yesterday 
but took work to get it started. lots of tries and pedal modulation 

tuing startup on MS2 is much much different than ms1 

any secrets you guys can share? 
im totally lost :/ 

edit: im using tunerstudio for tuning. it uses PW% and coolant temp as variables. 
i knew how to set the PW lengths in TS when it was PW in m/s but now it has changed to "cranking PW %" and im not sure how that works :/ 

i understand "To begin, set the -40°F cranking pulse width to about 88% of your "upper" req_fuel value, and the 170°F cranking pulse width to about 23% of your req_fuel. Those should get you 'in the ball park' for starting." from the megamanual, but i dont know how cranking PW% works  

also just wondering what you guys use for priming pulses 
it reccommends under 4.0m/s and ideally around two. 
will around 2m/s be fine on my 16v?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

VWs seem to like a lot of fuel for cold start. I'm using the following settings on my beast with 35lb injectors and a required fuel of 11.0 

Priming pulse: 20.0ms from -40 to 0 deg and tapering down to 8.0ms at 160 deg 
Cranking pulse 245% at -40, taper to 110% at 160 
ASE % 40% at -40 taper to 15% at 130 back up to 20% at 160 ( hot starts are instant for me) 
ASE Taper 1200 cycles at -40 taper to 500 at 160 
Warmup Enrichment 180% at 0 taper to 100% at 175. 

As I said this is what works for me with a 2.0L 20V.


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

Prof315 said:


> VWs seem to like a lot of fuel for cold start. I'm using the following settings on my beast with 35lb injectors and a required fuel of 11.0
> 
> Priming pulse: 20.0ms from -40 to 0 deg and tapering down to 8.0ms at 160 deg
> Cranking pulse 245% at -40, taper to 110% at 160
> ...


 awesome! 
thanks ill keep that in mind. i kept the prime pulse way low. 
and my other stuff was all funky too. ill try your settings and adjust from there 
im using stock aba injectors. (people say anywhere from 17-19lb/hr so i just went with 17lb hr in engine constants and 1985 for the CC) giving me 10.8 req_fuel


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The nice thing about everything being in % req_fuel is that the settings are more portable across injector sizes. I run a lot more cranking fuel at low temps then Jeff, I think I'm over 300% at 0F.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The nice thing about everything being in % req_fuel is that the settings are more portable across injector sizes. I run a lot more cranking fuel at low temps then Jeff, I think I'm over 300% at 0F.


 That's probably because I've never really had to tune below 30degF. I live in Florida


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

well i tried the values and nothing worked. i played for about 2 hours today to have it barely start once. then die. 
it will start and hiccup over and over like it wants to start. 
when i first put it in it took a little work to start but started and ran after a little work. 
i have no clue why it wont now! 
and to top it off the starter blew. so now no starting it until i get a new one. 
flm 
im so frustrated 

when it did start i had to almost floor it to get it to stay running. then let off a hair and it died. 
it sounded like it was under load. low vac and everything. 
idk whats going on


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

i also want to mention that the pulsewidth gauge on the main screen doesnt even show a steady number. it usually jumps between 0 8 and 12 while cranking no mater where i have te cranking PW% at...i have a feeling somethings not set up right. or my computer is slow? but then why would it jump so much and do the same numbers? 

im gonna go out with a spare dizzy and try to see what they are individually. 
i found out of i take a spare dizzy out and spin the rotor i can hear the injectors fire and i can see the rpm on the MS gauge and i can see spark if i pull a plug boot and add a spare sprakplug. so i know it has spark and fuel. 

ill see what PW it has when i do that


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You getting consistent rpm during cranking? Whats your battery voltage?


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You getting consistent rpm during cranking? Whats your battery voltage?


 rpm is all over between like 200 and 600ish 
voltage sucks. im doing a constant jump off my dads jeep. during cranking it will vary between like6-10 

the starter had been going bad. got a new one, itll go in tomorrow. 
ill take another crack at it tomorrow and we'll see how it goes. maybe the new starter will give me something to work with


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## bomberbob (Sep 19, 2004)

Gee, after looking at the prof's settings maybe I have been too conservative on my numbers. 
Are you running MS for just fuel, or are you running ignition too? 
If you are able to log data, save it to a file and send it. 
I fiddled with ASE for quite awhile and finally ditched it. I turned it down to 35 cycles at -40 (practically nothing), and just let warm up enrichment take care of it. 
I could send you what I am running but its set up for E85, so they would be bloated for what you need. What the Prof sent are probably better numbers. 
See following website, maybe it will help. 
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/megasquirt-cold-starting-pulse-widths/5725/page1/


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

bomberbob said:


> Gee, after looking at the prof's settings maybe I have been too conservative on my numbers.
> Are you running MS for just fuel, or are you running ignition too?
> If you are able to log data, save it to a file and send it.
> I fiddled with ASE for quite awhile and finally ditched it. I turned it down to 35 cycles at -40 (practically nothing), and just let warm up enrichment take care of it.
> ...


 Lots and lots of ASE really seems to help me with cold starts especially at 50 deg and below.


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

im running it where ms controls everything. fuel and spark 

does anyone have a MSQ of a 16v on ms2? 
i dont think i have all the settings right. ive played with timing, prime pulse crank pulse cranking rpm and still nothing. itll crank and hiccup like it wants to start and thats it... i got a data log done of one of the cranks. i can email it. idk how to post it here. 

if i post the msq can you guys tell me if its all set up right for the 16v on a stock coil and dizzy?


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

if you look here, the second post down i have my msq uploaded 
please feel free to open it and take a look to see if i have settings wrong! 
thanks! :beer: 

click me 

or heres a direct dowload link


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rocklizzard91 said:


> im running it where ms controls everything. fuel and spark
> 
> does anyone have a MSQ of a 16v on ms2?


 

its a turbo 16v with huge injectors... but it might help 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4913827-MS2-extra-distributor-settings 
near the bottom theres a link to msruns with the msq file - it was starting well with those settings, map just isnt tuned but that wont matter. 

id make sure you get consistant rpm during cranking, and also be sure to check your ignition timing now that youve made the switch to ms2 - its not as straightforward as ms1 (as you can tell from that thread i linked) 
it sounds to me like youve got more issues than just fuel


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> its a turbo 16v with huge injectors... but it might help
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4913827-MS2-extra-distributor-settings
> near the bottom theres a link to msruns with the msq file - it was starting well with those settings, map just isnt tuned but that wont matter.
> 
> ...


 awesome thanks ill open that up once im at home. 
i can post a datalog too if i pick up a starter 

im getting consistent rpms when its starting consistently. but once it starts hiccupping like it wants to start the rpms jump (obviously) but if the motor is just cranking with no fuel its perfectly fine and consistent 

im guessing i may be having timing issues too. i left everything the same as i left it with ms1. ms1 worked until the ecu died. i left the wiring all the same and plugged in MS2 and reset the cam-camshaft timing. 
i didnt know there was more to do  

im also unsure as to how i set ignition timing on this without it running and using a timing light. 
my mr2 turbo has a mark on the camshaft under the valvecover you can align and it sets the dizzy timing perfectly. no need for a timing gun. i dont think the vw has such a mark :/ or is there a similar trick? 

i dont understand anything in the wiring diagram in the link you posted. 
i had diyautotune do the mods to the board that were supposed to make it work with my setup.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

if youre getting a consistant rpm with the starter running than i take back what i said earlier, i had misunderstood that you were getting flaky rpm with just the starter on. 

well when you do get it going again, even if its burping and stumbling around, it would be nice to get a timing light on it, lock the timing in ms to 6*, and check it against the flywheel... as you can see in the thread i linked i had some issues getting that sorted on the software side in ms2-e, and it was much easier to troubleshoot with a timing light.


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

alrighty. ill pull the fuel pump fuse and crank it to see if i can get it to line up with the 6* mark.
will that be ok?
it will spin around 200-300rpm with no fuel added and is pretty consistent


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rocklizzard91 said:


> alrighty. ill pull the fuel pump fuse and crank it to see if i can get it to line up with the 6* mark.
> will that be ok?
> it will spin around 200-300rpm with no fuel added and is pretty consistent


that oughta be a start
pull the spark plugs out and lay them on the manifold or something to make it easier to spin over, so you dont burn out another starter :beer:


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> that oughta be a start
> pull the spark plugs out and lay them on the manifold or something to make it easier to spin over, so you dont burn out another starter :beer:


thats what im saying! it has to be the ecu or something. everything else is there. it cranks well. fuel is there and spark is there.
im betting on timing of some sort be it dizzy timing or MS timing.

and oh great idea! i dont wanna buy another starter! :banghead:

for the record, a vw touareg oem jack makes the starter swap a 5 min job on a lowered car  fits in the bay if you slide it in right by the starter and get it on the ground. a few cranks and the motor is supported and itll swap right out! no more driving on blocks, widowmaker jacking it up to fit a read jack under and doing it that way


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

oh snaps! she started today!
i played with the trigger wizard. its kinda confusing. the big main number kept changing between 0 6 10 and 20. the one where it says to set the timing light to that number.
i ended up at 5* offset and it lined up it seemed like.
set the timing to 6* and used the 6* mark on the flywheel and got it close.
kept playing and playing and playing (plugs out trying to just line up the timing.)
then threw the plugs in and it didnt work. so looking at the timign stuff.
i kept switching between rising edge and falling edge (forgot which made it start)
and between basic trigger and trigger

i dont know which it needs. but it started right up! wouldnt idle without me holding the throttle. but iw as so happy!

so happy i forgot to save it before i kept playing to get it to idle :/
so it started 3x and i went to change stuff and didnt save so now no more starting 
grrrrr

shes close though!
maybe?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rocklizzard91 said:


> oh snaps! she started today!


nice work :thumbup:

id go and check through that thread i linked to and try to copy those settings if you can... i had a bit of a struggle sorting through that info as not many folks run ms2e with a distributor, but the settings i posted in there work well and the timing lines up perfect :thumbup:


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

awesome! ill run out there and try soon. the battery sucks so i have limited starting 
and the jeep im using to jump it is almost out of gas 
too lazy to get up and get more gas 
mostly cause its not cheap to fill up the jeep :laugh:

i just finished copying the settings out of your msq. so well see how that turns out.

you said lots of guys dont use the stock dizzy?
what do they use? coil packs and a missing tooth wheel on the crank?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rocklizzard91 said:


> what do they use? coil packs and a missing tooth wheel on the crank?


that seems to be the common ms2e application, i found very very few instances of folks running ms2e on a 16v with the stock distributor still. most were on aba bottom ends with the trigger wheel and wasted spark


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> that seems to be the common ms2e application, i found very very few instances of folks running ms2e on a 16v with the stock distributor still. most were on aba bottom ends with the trigger wheel and wasted spark


ah, right on.
is that a more reliable setup?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

rocklizzard91 said:


> ah, right on.
> is that a more reliable setup?


It can be. Fewer moving parts and the ABA trigger wheel and crank sensor are easy to set up with MS.


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

Prof315 said:


> It can be. Fewer moving parts and the ABA trigger wheel and crank sensor are easy to set up with MS.


Gah! More reason I should get an aba block and turbo it 

Thats good to know. Is it easier to set timing on that trigger setup too? No dizzy synching needed


Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

rocklizzard91 said:


> Gah! More reason I should get an aba block and turbo it
> 
> Thats good to know. Is it easier to set timing on that trigger setup too? No dizzy synching needed
> 
> ...


Much easier. Set ignition input to missing tooth wheel, 60-2, trigger angle 78*, possibly add a 10K resistor to the VR+ wire (pin 24) and go.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rocklizzard91 said:


> Gah! More reason I should get an aba block and turbo it
> 
> Thats good to know. Is it easier to set timing on that trigger setup too? No dizzy synching needed
> 
> ...


it is easier, as prof mentioned, but i wouldnt redo my entire engine setup just because you dont want to spend the 5 minutes synching up your dist :sly:


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

no not just to sync the dizzy 

so i tried the settings from your msq. it doesnt seem to help.
grrrrr im kicking myself for not saving the time it started!! :banghead:

sorry i forgot to send you that stuff valvecover, doing it now :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Dizzy should *not* be this hard.

If you're using an inverted jumper (XG1/2 not connected in the opto, or the VRoutINV output) start off with a non inverted trigger edge.

If you're using a non inverted jumper (XG1/2 still connected, or VRout output) start off with an inverted trigger edge.

Set the offset to 0 and the trigger angle to 60. 

Make sure the flywheel is marked at TDC or somewhere else that you KNOW the deg. 

Set fixed timing to either 0 or what your mark indicates.

Crank motor while looking at timing light, adjust distro as needed to get sync. 

If you have a problem, verify distro position in block (notch facing front drivers corner on 8v), and lined up with rotor when motor is at TDC.

Only now if you have no luck with sync, change the trigger edge and cycle power. Repeat above process.

Change timing back from fixed. Drive car.

I have never had that method not work.


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Dizzy should *not* be this hard.
> 
> If you're using an inverted jumper (XG1/2 not connected in the opto, or the VRoutINV output) start off with a non inverted trigger edge.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Thats VERY helpfull! I will try it that way today. I have a 16v so there is no set position like on the 8v you mentioned having a notch for right? Just loosen the bolts and the dizzy

As for the jumper, I'm not sure, I had diyautotune do the work in the case. I'll look in the notes they sent and check

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rocklizzard91 said:


> I have a 16v so there is no set position like on the 8v you mentioned having a notch for right? Just loosen the bolts and the dizzy


there is, its just in a different spot... when the motors at tdc the rotor should point to where the #1 lead plugs in
there was a pic floating around the 16v forum... i dont have it on this computer unfortunately.

you can pop the ecu open and check for the jumper :thumbup:


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> there is, its just in a different spot... when the motors at tdc the rotor should point to where the #1 lead plugs in
> there was a pic floating around the 16v forum... i dont have it on this computer unfortunately.
> 
> you can pop the ecu open and check for the jumper :thumbup:


ah, ok! sweet, ill try that too.
all the pics ive seen lately are dead :/

and ill look in the case if the notes dont have it written on it


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

the notes say:

-inverse 5v hall/ optical triggering for VW or HEI ignitions
-modified for single bosch BIP373 ignition output on pin36


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

check the underside of the ecu, and compare it to what paul wrote a few posts up...


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

ive done it!
thank you SOOOOO much guys!
if i was old enough, you all were close by, and i drank, iw ould treat you all to a nice round of drinks! :laugh:

i got her started and idling like a champ!
my dumbass had the middle two spark plug wires mixed. i went the wrong way around the dizzy for the wires  i thought it went CW not CCW
that explains the under load symptoms.
and then how the middle two spark plugs were clean and wet yet the other two were nasty black.

everything is falling into place!
im soooo happy right now! :laugh:

still gonna take her up to bellingham for valvecover so i can get it tuned and everything. but now i can get her on the trailer on its own power 

accel enrichment is way off. if i stab the gas it shoots way lean for a sec.
but overall my day has been made!

got a few datalogs in
warmed it up and played with a few cranking settings.
it starts right up!
the old ecu had to have been bad. these are just the generic values youve given me and they worked. i tried that before with ms1 (suggested values) and they were WAY off what i needed to use. and it took like 10 sec of cranking
this ecu did the trick!

thanks again sooo much!:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

rocklizzard91 said:


> ...
> my dumbass had the middle two spark plug wires mixed. i went the wrong way around the dizzy for the wires  i thought it went CW not CCW...


I swear I almost posted to check this, this morning. You are not the first person to do this.


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## rocklizzard91 (Dec 18, 2007)

sdezego said:


> I swear I almost posted to check this, this morning. You are not the first person to do this.


hahaha yeah ive heard that 

i only knew because my outer two spark plugs were pretty nasty and black. while the inner two were wet and completely clean.
started it and pulled the plug boots and it didnt get any worse, so i put the #2 plug in #3 and it ran better and i was like :banghead:imma noob! :laugh:

took her around the block just now. idling mostly and watching the wideband like a hawk.
such a happy day!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

When in doubt, check your stupids  Glad you got it all worked out. I have to say that I did run into that with an install over the winter on a 16v where that was the issue starting it up. Luckily that wasn't my responsibility.. gave the owner a lot of **** over it!!


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