# Worlds quickest/fastest vr6 build ( think tank thread )



## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

My name is Mike Booher. I live in Dayton , Ohio USA. Im 60 years old , I just joined this site minutes ago , and this is my first post on this forum. Hope it turns out to be an epic thread with lots of input and valuable information( I / we need it !! ). 

I currently own a blown BuickV6 powered dragster and a VW air cooled ProStock car (almost done). Last September I traveled to the ProStock Nationals in California as a race offical. I met Bill Eserini and his team/family. They have a VR6 powered dragster than runs very low 7 seconds. The VR6 engine really caught my attention and we shared war stories about the long road of torn up parts to get to the 6 second zone. About a month ago I started looking for my next project and started some reasearch on the VR6 engine. Somehow I found the thread on here by VR6-GT42RS entitled "My R36 Bigturbo build". Needless to say I was totally impressed and hooked on the idea of building a VR6 to put in my dragster to attend /race at VW races along with my ProStock car and possibly being capable of going deep into the 6 second zone with a VR6. Just to be clear that I am dead serious about this. Attached are a few videos from a few years ago. I normally run 1/8 mile. This was to be a match race at 1/4 mile so I was scared to death about the engine making a full 1/4 mile pass. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPqmKCWu9bg 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3-E50kNso 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHJLRCQ8DKo 

OK so I need help!! I dont have a single VR6 part!! If you were me and you were going to take on this project where would YOU start ??? Right now Im thinking a R36 24valve 3.6L although I do not know why the R36 head is preferred. Any input appreciated!! Hope VR6-GT42RS will help here!! 

Thanks Mike


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

You did well navigating to this area for your first post, so kudos to you! :beer: 

There are a ton on helpful individuals here that can give you advice and point you in the right direction. There are some very powerful cars that lurk around here, but mine is not one of them. Good luck on your quest and I'll certainly be watching for updates!


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks for that. One of my first questions on these motors is what would the actuall TDC be in crank shaft degrees being that the 3.6 block has a 10.6 degree bank angle ? I will most likely run MFI with a combination fuel pump/distributor set up like I use on my buick. That means I would need to make a reluctor to suit the TDC degrees. Mike


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Here is a self study guide to start you off.. 
http://sandbox.enjoybeing.net/veedub/vw_vr6_self_study.pdf 
Steve


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

Hey thanks a lot for that. That helped with many questions I had about the engine mechanical basics , however most of that info pertains to production road cars and will not be used in an allout racing engine. But it defenetly cleared up a few questions I had about a number of things !! 
Many thanks Mike


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Your welcome. 

Ps I think the 3.6 head has larger inlet ports than the 3.2 
Steve


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

sTT eV6 said:


> Your welcome.
> 
> Ps I think the 3.6 head has larger inlet ports than the 3.2
> Steve


 I see in VR6-GT42Rs thread that he used an R36 head. I also realize that thread was started quite a while ago. I see a lot of engines are R32. What makes the R36 head different or better?? Seems that the 3.6 Passat engines are rated fairly high HP. Do the 3.6 Passat (maybe Touareg , audi Q7 , cayenne) have the R36 head. 
The only real reference to the R36 head that I see was maybe the Golf R36 , but smaller engine??? 

Mike


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

I would get in touch with Kevin at Lugtronic as well. He's a VW tuning guru and can definitely help with the more technical aspects as he has years of race prep and working with some of the highest horsepower VR6s as well. 

lugtronic.com has a contact section or I believe his email is [email protected]


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I would consider the 12v for its reliability, ease of getting parts, and cost. but you do have a few options to choose from. 2.8L 12v, 2.8L 24v, 3.2L 24v, 3.6 24v. parts are not interchangable except on 2.8 24v and 3.2 24v.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

You're my new hero if you go 12V. 

I think the 12V would be the most reliable choise. 
I'd advise you to contact Lugtronic.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

wabbitGTl said:


> I would get in touch with Kevin at Lugtronic as well. He's a VW tuning guru and can definitely help with the more technical aspects as he has years of race prep and working with some of the highest horsepower VR6s as well.
> 
> lugtronic.com has a contact section or I believe his email is [email protected]


 Thanks for that info. Had a PM suggesting him also so I will contact him today and see how it goes. 
Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

pimS said:


> You're my new hero if you go 12V.
> 
> I think the 12V would be the most reliable choise.
> I'd advise you to contact Lugtronic.


 I think the 12v would defenetly be the cheapest/easiest engine to work with but Im looking to make 1000HP ++. Im seeing the severe limitations of just the cylinder head that are steering me away from that. I know the Eserinis are struggling to make the power required to get in the 6 second zone with the 12v head. I do believe that they will make it into the 6's this year and they certainly deserve it!!! Seems that there are a few people out there developing the 24v stuff and having some 1000HP results. Good chance that more HP is possible if the right combination of parts can be obtained. Sorry but I believe Im going 24v 3.6 version. Mike


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Blown-v6 said:


> Seems that there are a few people out there developing the 24v stuff and having some 1000HP results. Good chance that more HP is possible if the right combination of parts can be obtained. Sorry but I believe Im going 24v 3.6 version. Mike


 /agree 

I'm no expert when it comes to pure race engines but your thought process definitely makes sense. 

and I still have no idea why 12v guys feel that the 12v is "more reliable" compared with the newer & improved upon 24v / R32 engines........


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> /agree
> 
> I'm no expert when it comes to pure race engines but your thought process definitely makes sense.
> 
> and I still have no idea why 12v guys feel that the 12v is "more reliable" compared with the newer & improved upon 24v / R32 engines........


 Im not sure that they feel like the 24v engines are less reliable or not , but Im getting the idea that not many people have done anything with these motors. Also looks like a swap from an older 12v to the new 3.6 24v engine would get really complex in an everday road car. 

I will follow in the steps of VR6-GT42RS and use stand alone ignition and injection systems so it should be much easier to do for me. Mike


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## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> /agree
> 
> I'm no expert when it comes to pure race engines but your thought process definitely makes sense.
> 
> and I still have no idea why 12v guys feel that the 12v is "more reliable" compared with the newer & improved upon 24v / R32 engines........


 Fewer moving parts maybe?


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

Uberhare said:


> Fewer moving parts maybe?


 While that is true Im not sure that the problems would be valve train related. Basically thats all were talking about is twice the number valves. Most everything else is in numbers the same. The thing is that the 24v head is capable of making more power , which will create bottom end troubles. Of coarse that will need to be addressed right away and in overboard mode!! Mike


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## VWBugman00 (Mar 17, 2009)

So you could definitely start with the basics. Get a 3.6 block and head. Get some forged pistons, like JE, Wisco, etc (8.5 compression?). Get some good forged rods, like Integrated Engneering, Brutes, etc. Pull the crank, have it knife edged (maybe not needed, don't really know). Pull the head, put some supertech or fererra valve train in there, oversize the intake valves if it's available. Inconel exhaust valves at this level are probably a must due to the heat. Have the head ported and polished (again don't know if the 3.6 head really needs this). ARP bolts are a neccessity at this point for everything. Get coated bearings for both the crank and the rods. Find some cams, or have some made. 

Once this is done, get a manifold made for the turbo, with probably 2 ports for wastegates. Fabricate an intake manifold. Get a huge turbo (Garrett GTX-4508R Turbocharger is good to 1400hp). Find software, likely a standalone system or maestro (someone to tune it if you're not sure how). Fuel system requirements, pumps, injectors, etc. Water/Meth injection, nitrous, intercooler set up (I'd go with air to water set up for this) 

There is just so much that will need to go into this to get it to that level, you kinda just have to start with the block, and run from there. Then you get to the transmission, which is a whole different animal at this level. 

I am looking forward to this build, and I sincrely hope it all goes well for you. :thumbup:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

VWBugman00 said:


> So you could definitely start with the basics. Get a 3.6 block and head. Get some forged pistons, like JE, Wisco, etc (8.5 compression?). Get some good forged rods, like Integrated Engneering, Brutes, etc. Pull the crank, have it knife edged (maybe not needed, don't really know). Pull the head, put some supertech or fererra valve train in there, oversize the intake valves if it's available. Inconel exhaust valves at this level are probably a must due to the heat. Have the head ported and polished (again don't know if the 3.6 head really needs this). ARP bolts are a neccessity at this point for everything. Get coated bearings for both the crank and the rods. Find some cams, or have some made.
> 
> Once this is done, get a manifold made for the turbo, with probably 2 ports for wastegates. Fabricate an intake manifold. Get a huge turbo (Garrett GTX-4508R Turbocharger is good to 1400hp). Find software, likely a standalone system or maestro (someone to tune it if you're not sure how). Fuel system requirements, pumps, injectors, etc. Water/Meth injection, nitrous, intercooler set up (I'd go with air to water set up for this)
> 
> ...


 Hold up there!! First I need to determine which 3.6 24v engine has the desired cylinder head and determine what the engine code for it is!! I believe that I need a code BHK ,BHL, or BLV (mexico) but No one is confirming that. 

I will most likely be buying an engine from a junk yard!! So I NEED TO KNOW THE CODE!! Any help determining this would be most appreciated. Then I will get an engine to look at. 

I have a 2 speed powerglide in the car with a 9" 6500 stall (with my buick) torque converter so the trans is covered. 

Pretty sure Im going with a big turbo (to be determined ) and Hopefully I will use the MFI already on the dragster. Im not a world class tuner , but I can get it done. Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

First I would like to thank MATH for his help behind the scenes!! He has helped out tremendously!! 

I believe We have determined that the imfamous R36 head , is the same head used on on any 3.6L. 
So I have already begun the search for a 3.6 Passat core type engine. 

I believe we determined that the crankshaft is ground with rod centerlines which make the TDC moments of each cylinder happen at 120 degree seperation. 

I learned that the 60-2 ignition trigger wheel could be used in my application by removing all but 3 of the teeth on it. Weather or not the existing trigger sensor is capable of triggering a MSD ignition box is still up in the air in my mind. Math does not think it will work , but I will eventually test it. 

We are working on the demensions of the VR6 block bellhousing area that will be required to make the VR6 to powerglide adapter plate and crankshaft to chevy flywheel adapter. Anyone who might be able to come up with these demensions please help out here!! 

Also seeing that there just are not many aftermarket parts available for the 24v 3.6. I can make most everything except the cams. Any help with good racing cams for the 24v appreciated. 

Again thanks to Math as he dug most of this up for me. Thanks Mike


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

1000+whp out of a 24V? bold i must say. there are many that have/are chasing that goal. as stated to you already, Kevin aka Lugtronic will be your guide in the tuning aspects of your potential build. he is the tuner responsible for the worlds fasted stock block 12V VR6, worlds fasted AWD 4cyl Audi, and the fastest U.S. FWD 4 cyl VW...to top those off, he tuned a 2.8 24V in a Corrado on a custom built chassis attached to a powerglide. i can't access Youtube where i am at, but just type in Lugtronic and enjoy 

What VR6-GT42RS is simply incredible, it was also the first of its kind, or ghini-pig if you will. rods weren't made yet before him, cams, pistons, nothing. and i believe he pushed it to a 3.8??? but i may be wrong...anyways, that car went through a ton of trial and error to get where it is at... 

honestly, i wouldnt set my heart on the 3.6, since they aren't as readily available here in the U.S like they are over in EU... 2.8 24V could be a very nice bench mark for you and will hopefully suit your needs. 1000whp goals are not for the faint of heart in the watercooled VW world, but ofcourse possible. would be intrigued to hear more on what this motor would be going into, or your plans on how to apply that power to the ground


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

See if VR6-GT42RS went with a crank becasue I thought all 3.6 were cast iron cranks. 
Not saying they can't handle it just don't think they're forged.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

zoidmk5 said:


> 1000+whp out of a 24V? bold i must say. there are many that have/are chasing that goal. as stated to you already, Kevin aka Lugtronic will be your guide in the tuning aspects of your potential build. he is the tuner responsible for the worlds fasted stock block 12V VR6, worlds fasted AWD 4cyl Audi, and the fastest U.S. FWD 4 cyl VW...to top those off, he tuned a 2.8 24V in a Corrado on a custom built chassis attached to a powerglide. i can't access Youtube where i am at, but just type in Lugtronic and enjoy
> 
> What VR6-GT42RS is simply incredible, it was also the first of its kind, or ghini-pig if you will. rods weren't made yet before him, cams, pistons, nothing. and i believe he pushed it to a 3.8??? but i may be wrong...anyways, that car went through a ton of trial and error to get where it is at...
> 
> honestly, i wouldnt set my heart on the 3.6, since they aren't as readily available here in the U.S like they are over in EU... 2.8 24V could be a very nice bench mark for you and will hopefully suit your needs. 1000whp goals are not for the faint of heart in the watercooled VW world, but ofcourse possible. would be intrigued to hear more on what this motor would be going into, or your plans on how to apply that power to the ground


 This going in a dragster that is currently powered by a 1200HP buick v6. It has already been .942 in 60' and 4.12 in the 660'. Im not thinking power to the ground is going to be my worst of problems. 
Seems that my wost of problems right now is finding the bell housing demensions of the VR6. 

Somebody please come up with that !!! Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

vergessen wir es said:


> See if VR6-GT42RS went with a crank becasue I thought all 3.6 were cast iron cranks.
> Not saying they can't handle it just don't think they're forged.


 His post was one of my biggest inspirations to do this. He is the MAN!! Im really hoping that he will chime in on this thread. His knodledge --PRICELESS !! Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

vergessen wir es said:


> See if VR6-GT42RS went with a crank becasue I thought all 3.6 were cast iron cranks.
> Not saying they can't handle it just don't think they're forged.


 You bring up a very good point. I would defenetly perfer a steel forged racing crank. Are they available??? And if so who ?? Mike


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## MiamiVr6T (Jul 24, 2004)

R32 head, 2.8L 24v shortblock, Precision 6766, Haltech ECU: Makes 932awhp and has ran [email protected] (3000+#)


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## najort32 (Sep 8, 2004)

*mmi concepts*

try mmi concepts in bangor pa . They run an low 8 sec vrt corrado with a liberty trans. I think they also run lugtronic engine management


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Don't think a 12v is really any more reliable than the 24v brother. It's just cheaper to build, plain and simple. It's been around much longer and so the market has had a lot of time to advance and blossom. 

My 24v recently made 474whp on the stock motor, stock head, and stock intake manifold. It's also daily driven. The only engine add-ons were a head spacer, and ARP studs. There was still room for some improvement as well, as I noticed in my logs afterwards. 

I also don't find the engine itself any more convoluted to deal with or any less reliable. If anything I think it's the fact that it's in a MKIV that makes it seem that way. 

1000+whp I think is definitely do-able and i feel like USP motorsports will probably cross the 1000 All wheel horsepower mark sometime soon with theirs. I think it's just a matter of the market needing to support it more, which probably won't happen since it's not really produced in a hot car anymore.


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## crehner (Feb 14, 2011)

If money is not an object in this build, I'm sure you could have a custom crank made for it. More and more companies are going to and using 5 axis CNC mills, and for the right money I'm sure they could make one. Not speaking from experience here, because I'm forced to build on a budget :laugh:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

crehner said:


> If money is not an object in this build, I'm sure you could have a custom crank made for it. More and more companies are going to and using 5 axis CNC mills, and for the right money I'm sure they could make one. Not speaking from experience here, because I'm forced to build on a budget :laugh:


 Im defenetly on a budget. I shouldnt even be thinking about this!! But as usual it shall be done if I live long enough. I would defenetly consider an aftermarket crank once I get this going. 

Crankshaft girdle is also on my list of things to find!! And a REAL stout one at that!! ANYONE!!! 

I actually ordered a few parts today just to check out , and have inquires on a few more!! Its ON!!! 
Thanks Mike


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Girdle. Not sure about 3.6 fitment 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4758026-2010-Drag-Racing-Classifieds/page15


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## mulk (Feb 12, 2011)

Not for 3.6, but 2.8 24v, dry sump oiling. 
And it has engine block half filled.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> and I still have no idea why 12v guys feel that the 12v is "more reliable" compared with the newer & improved upon 24v / R32 engines........


 inability to run large lift cams definitely hurts the 24v motors.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

Blown-v6 said:


> This going in a dragster that is currently powered by a 1200HP buick v6. It has already been .942 in 60' and 4.12 in the 660'. Im not thinking power to the ground is going to be my worst of problems.
> Seems that my wost of problems right now is finding the bell housing demensions of the VR6.
> 
> Somebody please come up with that !!! Thanks Mike


 as stated before, def talk to MMI, that is the Corrado i was talking about...thought it was a power glide, not a liberty, but i could be wrong. i think they were having some chassis and or suspension issues, but i'm not sure it ever made an official pass. but they did make close to 1000whp, and knowing Kevin there may have still been some room to play with on that tune 

with you running this in a dragster, you will def. not have traction problems. one major thing you will need will def. be an adapter to bolt up a traditional RWD trans. they are out there, but don't think anybody is producing them, just one off stuff. may beable to either buy the CNC file, or have MMI just make another one for you 

there are plenty of companies out there making girdles for 4cyl...maybe reach out to one of them and see if they will get the ball rolling on production of a 24V system


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## evosilica (Mar 6, 2012)

i am no expert with vr6 at all, so take it with a grain of salt, but afaik the r36 block wouldn't be the best choice in terms of stability because of stroke to rod length ratio (we call it "knickwinkel" in german,) 

Some of the high power VR6s in germany are based on the 24V R32 engine combined with the 2.8 crank. 
This will give you ~3.0l (search for R30), lower compression ratio and better "knickwinkel" (less rod angle), so it's able to handle more torque. 
There is a R36 Turbo where i live, that is built to make over 1000hp (turbosize, injectors, pump ...) but it's not driven at the power limit at all, because even the owner said, it's more a "prestige project" and he's not so sure if the block would handle it. for more power he would have taken the R32 or even a "R30" since they can handle more torque/power.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

.therealvrt said:


> Girdle. Not sure about 3.6 fitment
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4758026-2010-Drag-Racing-Classifieds/page15


 I contacted this guy. He makes them for German tuners. They are 800e. What would that be in american dollars?? Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

mulk said:


> Not for 3.6, but 2.8 24v, dry sump oiling.
> And it has engine block half filled.


 I believe that is the girdle arrangement Im looking for !! Where can I find out more about these ?? 
A thicher steel plate and that would really take some power !! I run a dry sump on my buick already so that would be a no brainer. WOW more info please. Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

TBT-Syncro said:


> inability to run large lift cams definitely hurts the 24v motors.


 Are you speaking from experiance about this , or an opinion?? Trust me I have never even layed eyes on one these motors up close and personal. What are the problems getting some lift?? Please explain. Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

zoidmk5 said:


> as stated before, def talk to MMI, that is the Corrado i was talking about...thought it was a power glide, not a liberty, but i could be wrong. i think they were having some chassis and or suspension issues, but i'm not sure it ever made an official pass. but they did make close to 1000whp, and knowing Kevin there may have still been some room to play with on that tune
> 
> with you running this in a dragster, you will def. not have traction problems. one major thing you will need will def. be an adapter to bolt up a traditional RWD trans. they are out there, but don't think anybody is producing them, just one off stuff. may beable to either buy the CNC file, or have MMI just make another one for you
> 
> there are plenty of companies out there making girdles for 4cyl...maybe reach out to one of them and see if they will get the ball rolling on production of a 24V system


 I sent Kevin an e-mail a couple days ago , no response as yet. May have found an adapter , I have an e-mail to them also. Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

evosilica said:


> i am no expert with vr6 at all, so take it with a grain of salt, but afaik the r36 block wouldn't be the best choice in terms of stability because of stroke to rod length ratio (we call it "knickwinkel" in german,)
> 
> Some of the high power VR6s in germany are based on the 24V R32 engine combined with the 2.8 crank.
> This will give you ~3.0l (search for R30), lower compression ratio and better "knickwinkel" (less rod angle), so it's able to handle more torque.
> There is a R36 Turbo where i live, that is built to make over 1000hp (turbosize, injectors, pump ...) but it's not driven at the power limit at all, because even the owner said, it's more a "prestige project" and he's not so sure if the block would handle it. for more power he would have taken the R32 or even a "R30" since they can handle more torque/power.


 OK I see your point but lets debate it. In my buick it has a 9.500" deck height , 3.750" stroke , 6.350" rods and 1.220" compression height on the piston pins. How does that compare with a 3.6L VR6 ? I know the 3.6L stroke is slightly more but I have no idea about the deck height or rod length. The few rods that I have seen all looked pretty long to me , but it could be an illusion because the piston diameter is pretty small. Mike


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## mulk (Feb 12, 2011)

Blown-v6 said:


> I believe that is the girdle arrangement Im looking for !! Where can I find out more about these ??
> A thicher steel plate and that would really take some power !! I run a dry sump on my buick already so that would be a no brainer. WOW more info please. Thanks Mike


 Its my engine, 2.8 (bored out to 84.5mm) 24v, 8mm Ha**** 400 gridle and Impax Supreem tool steel main caps with ARP 2.5 20V head bolts, parts and machining job by me. 
Iff i do it again, 3.2 block, 2.8 crank with 2.8 24v head would be my choice.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

mulk said:


> Its my engine, 2.8 (bored out to 84.5mm) 24v, 8mm Ha**** 400 gridle and Impax Supreem tool steel main caps with ARP 2.5 20V head bolts, parts and machining job by me.
> Iff i do it again, 3.2 block, 2.8 crank with 2.8 24v head would be my choice.


 WOW beautiful job!! I thought the caps looked to be aluminum. Top fuel car use aluminum caps so it would probably work , but steel would def be better. Would the basic design bolt onto the 3.6 block ? I realise the rod slots would most likely need to enlarged to clear the longer stroke. 

That is beautiful!! Can you hook a guy up?? LOL Thanks Mike


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

Blown-v6 said:


> I sent Kevin an e-mail a couple days ago , no response as yet. May have found an adapter , I have an e-mail to them also. Mike


 Try Kevin again, he was having trouble with his email account lately but should be back up to speed now. 

I love how fast this thread moves, lots of good ol fashioned discussion going on here. And the best part? NO EGOS!!!!!!!!!! :beer: for all!


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

I asume since you have read VR6GT42RS's thread, that his engine is for sale. 
Also, just as a curiosity, i see the Germans use 24v 2.8 cranks in R32 engines and calls them R30. Reving almost 9000rpm. Search "R30 turbo" on youtube . The mmi Corrado 24v turbo drag car had a thread in here some time ago...


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

wabbitGTl said:


> Try Kevin again, he was having trouble with his email account lately but should be back up to speed now.
> 
> I love how fast this thread moves, lots of good ol fashioned discussion going on here. And the best part? NO EGOS!!!!!!!!!! :beer: for all!


 I was hoping that this type of info could be shared for all to see and discuss. 

RAY CROCK /founder of McDonalds said (QUOTE) Together all of us are better than any one of us!! 

I see that Kevin has Pm'd me !! Thanks for passing it on. Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> I asume since you have read VR6GT42RS's thread, that his engine is for sale.
> Also, just as a curiosity, i see the Germans use 24v 2.8 cranks in R32 engines and calls them R30. Reving almost 9000rpm. Search "R30 turbo" on youtube . The mmi Corrado 24v turbo drag car had a thread in here some time ago...


 I have no doubt that the shorter crank will make more power per cuibic inch than the 3.6 crank. I also have little doubt that the shorter stroke would in fact be stronger. The question I have is , if a really stout girdle like pictured above or heavier were used and it could keep the crank perfectly straight. Would the longer stroke crank live ?? By american standards a 3.795" stroke crank is not that much at all and would easily go 9000 rpm. Now Im talking steel cranks mostly , however many super stock type engines use the cast cranks because they are lighter and turn 9000+ rpm's. I see it as a gamble worth taking with a really good girdle. Anyone?? Mike


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## VWBugman00 (Mar 17, 2009)

Blown-v6 said:


> I contacted this guy. He makes them for German tuners. They are 800e. What would that be in american dollars?? Mike


 Approximately $1040.


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## AXZ (Nov 9, 2009)

if you want big ports you have to look at VR6 FSI engines. 

they are "very" different from non-FSI , 15º V to 10,6V angle. 

the post you are referring to, the r36 gt 42 was not an original 3.6 motor. 

it was the AXZ version, the 3.2, sold in europe, asia and australia. 

related to the 3.6 there are different versions, longitudinal and transversal, the real r36 that has different pistons and camshafts and lower CR for higher rpm. 

so we have the version sold in USA in PASSAT's , the 280hp. 

You can find the 3.6 in, Touareg's, Cayenne's, Q7. 

If I were you I would pick a 2008+ Version ( no bolt in Oil pump problem) , disable direct injection and start all your project. 

regards.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

AXZ said:


> if you want big ports you have to look at VR6 FSI engines.
> 
> they are "very" different from non-FSI , 15º V to 10,6V angle.
> 
> ...


 Pretty much totally agree with that and that the direction I will move in. Thanks Mike


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Blown-v6 said:


> Are you speaking from experiance about this , or an opinion?? Trust me I have never even layed eyes on one these motors up close and personal. What are the problems getting some lift?? Please explain. Thanks Mike


 the rocker design prevents big lift. 

i believe it's been covered in the 24v forum.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

TBT-Syncro said:


> the rocker design prevents big lift.
> 
> i believe it's been covered in the 24v forum.


Well thats not encouraging , but hard to believe it not possible. Can you point us to the thread that covers this please. Thanks Mike


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Really enjoying this thread guys, keep it up! This is what joking this forum was all about for me 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

This is what joking this forum was all about for me [/QUOTE]

Not sure what this means exactly ?? Im not joking!! Mike


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Haha meant to say joining! Phone's autocorrect got me :sly:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

DannyLo said:


> Haha meant to say joining! Phone's autocorrect got me :sly:


Perfect !! Thanks for your intrest. Mike


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

vr6 to chevy bell housing adapter 
http://www.vr6swap.com/transmission-adapters/chevy-t56-th350-th400-transmission-adapter.html


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quicktime makes a bellhousing that you need...I can post the link you need later.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

kamahao112 said:


> vr6 to chevy bell housing adapter
> http://www.vr6swap.com/transmission-adapters/chevy-t56-th350-th400-transmission-adapter.html


Thanks for that link. I found that last week and sent them a site e-mail with no response. I sent another one this morning!! Also Kevin from Lugtronic e-mailed me last week and said he had an adapter , but I havent heard anything from him over the weekend. I PM'd him yesterday so hopefully we will see what he has to offer. Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

Dave926 said:


> Quicktime makes a bellhousing that you need...I can post the link you need later.


That would be great!!! Thanks Mike


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

zoidmk5 said:


> as stated before, def talk to MMI, that is the Corrado i was talking about...thought it was a power glide, not a liberty, but i could be wrong.


Jon @ MMI runs a Liberty.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

kamahao112 said:


> vr6 to chevy bell housing adapter
> http://www.vr6swap.com/transmission-adapters/chevy-t56-th350-th400-transmission-adapter.html


I have had various e-mails with Ed at SEU about this. What He has there is a 3/8 thick steel adapter plate. Being its only 3/8 thick it would require that my midplate and transmission bell housing be cut up to allow for clearance for the timing chain cover on th VR6. I cannot cut either one as they are SFI certified to run the classes I run in , so it is going to require an adapter that is approx 1.250" to 1.500" thick (guessing from pics) to clear the midplate with the timing cover. The price on the 3/8" adapter he has is $355.00. Since the adapter he makes will not work , I asked If he would sell me the demensions. He offered me the demensions for $355.00. Needless to say we cannot come to terms on this!! SO Im still LOOKING !!! for demension info on the VR6 block!! Also posted a thread in the fabrication section in here.

Any help greatly appreciated!!! Mike


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

Blown-v6 said:


> I have had various e-mails with Ed at SEU about this. What He has there is a 3/8 thick steel adapter plate. Being its only 3/8 thick it would require that my midplate and transmission bell housing be cut up to allow for clearance for the timing chain cover on th VR6. I cannot cut either one as they are SFI certified to run the classes I run in , so it is going to require an adapter that is approx 1.250" to 1.500" thick (guessing from pics) to clear the midplate with the timing cover. The price on the 3/8" adapter he has is $355.00. Since the adapter he makes will not work , I asked If he would sell me the demensions. He offered me the demensions for $355.00. Needless to say we cannot come to terms on this!! SO Im still LOOKING !!! for demension info on the VR6 block!! Also posted a thread in the fabrication section in here.
> 
> Any help greatly appreciated!!! Mike


i see well hope you can find one that soots your needs and i will have to subscribe to your other thread aswell :thumbup: looking forward to it


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## evosilica (Mar 6, 2012)

Blown-v6 said:


> By american standards a 3.795" stroke crank is not that much at all and would easily go 9000 rpm.


That's almost 29m/s average piston speed with the R36 crank.  Holy cow, by European standards this is almost insane. 
The 2.8 crank reduces it to 27m/s, which is still pretty high, but 29m/s ... call me a pu$$y but i would be scared :laugh:

I don't know many stock engines that exceed 22m/s


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

evosilica said:


> That's almost 29m/s average piston speed with the R36 crank.  Holy cow, by European standards this is almost insane.
> The 2.8 crank reduces it to 27m/s, which is still pretty high, but 29m/s ... call me a pu$$y but i would be scared :laugh:
> 
> I don't know many stock engines that exceed 22m/s


I turn my 3.750 stroke Buick 7500 to 8000rpm every pass. It has been 11,468rpm when the shifter broke going from first to high gear. That was about 5 years ago. No problems.
Most likely I will turn the VR6 between 7600 and 8000 hopefully it will live at that rpm and like it. Of coarse that is all to be determined later. Mike


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

I don't see those engine speeds as being a problem. Obviously I'm no expert but there are plenty of folks out there spinning higher than 8000. Whether any power lives up there is another story...
and for your viewing pleasure/encouragement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RBvlVNdewM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykSJ-kK6WoQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAwIyoAoRrQ


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

As stated in my first post , I had the pleasure of meeting the Eserini's and watching them run in Sacramento last labor day weekend. In part they are certainly one of my insperations for this project. Thanks Mike


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## M.P (Mar 7, 2009)

TBT-Syncro said:


> the rocker design prevents big lift.
> 
> i believe it's been covered in the 24v forum.


my valve lift is 12.5mm


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

M.P said:


> my valve lift is 12.5mm


Ok so .492" lift at the valve ?? What would the lift be +- on a 24v head with stock cams?? Is it possible to make the cams bigger or the rocker arm ratio be increased to get say .700" lift ?? 

Thanks Mike


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Blown-v6 said:


> Ok so .492" lift at the valve ?? What would the lift be +- on a 24v head with stock cams?? Is it possible to make the cams bigger or the rocker arm ratio be increased to get say .700" lift ??
> 
> Thanks Mike


Dont know if this info helps..








I seem to have plenty of free area between the top of the camshaft and cover but not sure about below the camshaft..

















My head is stage 3 ported and polished with 1mm oversize valves.

Steve


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

Still need those VR6 bellhousing measurements? 

I just measured a bellhousing the other day for my own project. My method left some room for error, but they're damn close. I'd say within a couple thou. It looks like a plate 1.5" thick that's 15x15 would be about $300 or so shipped, and then you have to get it machined.

I clamped the bell to the table on a vertical mill and used a coaxial indicator in the spindle to find the center of the hole. There is no rotational alignment, so you would need to figure out that yet.

X and Y coordinates for each hole, I ran counter clockwise, but I think I did one out of order, and one hole is unused on the block.

Center	0	0
alignment starter	-0.222	-6.3915
starter bolt 3.4345	-6.5395
peak1	5.3438	-5.644
peak2	6.9302	-0.9479
alignment 2	1.7822	6.1153
bottom bolt	-6.0993	-1.8816
bolt below starter	-3.38	-5.4506

and a pic to give reference of the setup:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

sTT eV6 said:


> Dont know if this info helps..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok now were talking!! Thanks for posting the flow info and especially the pics. Im on my lunch break right now. I will have many questions for you later!! Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

PapioGXL said:


> Still need those VR6 bellhousing measurements?
> 
> I just measured a bellhousing the other day for my own project. My method left some room for error, but they're damn close. I'd say within a couple thou. It looks like a plate 1.5" thick that's 15x15 would be about $300 or so shipped, and then you have to get it machined.
> 
> ...


Wow more great info!! I cannot open the file you e-mailed to me so I have no idea what it is. I sent it to my wife at work to see if she can open and print it. As just stated im on my lunch break right now. I will have many questions for you also!! Many thanks Mike


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

The file is just an excel spreadsheet of the coordinates listed here. :thumbup:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

sTT eV6 said:


> Dont know if this info helps..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steve, OK a few questions. 
1. How much work was performed on these heads. I see stage 3 heads but unclear what that is.
2. Im a little confused on the cfm numbers. This was the cfm of both valves at each given lift?
3. Can someone convert these numbers to 28" vacuum. We use 28" and Im trying to compare!!
4. The pics are a great help!! Looks like the rocker arm is basically 1 to 1 ratio??
5. Oppsite end of the valve under the rocker arm. Is that a mech. adjuster or a hydraulic adjuster?
6. Do you know what diameter valve springs , seat pressure & max lift before coil bind or keeper 
crash into the valve guide is ??
7. Looks to me like if valves can be made to open farther that same base circle , more lobe would work to give more lift.

Thanks Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

PapioGXL said:


> Still need those VR6 bellhousing measurements?
> 
> I just measured a bellhousing the other day for my own project. My method left some room for error, but they're damn close. I'd say within a couple thou. It looks like a plate 1.5" thick that's 15x15 would be about $300 or so shipped, and then you have to get it machined.
> 
> ...


OK looks to me that the bell housing is strapped down to a pretty nice piece of equipment. And since your trying to accomplish the same thing as I am for yourself , Im going to assume without hesitation that your measurements are very accurate!!
I have a few pics of a complete VR6 here. The dowel pins for the bell housing appear to be parrallel to the ground. Is this correct?? 
Would it be possible for you to take the time to map out the dowel pin and bolt locations on a piece of paper (hand drawing OK)?? Making the crank CL as zero and looking at the back of the block , not the bellhousing with the demensions!! Hopefully you can convert your demensions to the drawing with the dowel pins in the horizontal position (if thats true that they are truly horizontal to the ground)
I would be machining my adapter as viewed from the back of the block and want the engine to be vertical!! The GM transmission dowel pins are horizontal to the ground also.

I know Im asking for a lot here!! If you can deliver , I think a lot of people would be greatfull !!!


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't know why this never showed up on my subs. :banghead: Thanks. the equipment is very nice, the process and the operator could use some polishing. 

I've got a rough drawing thrown into CAD, so manipulating them is a nonissue, just mirroring and rotating and a few extra clicks for good measure. 

In all this, I never stopped to take notice whether the dowels were actually oriented in any fashion that made sense- engineers NEVER do things logically like that, so I assumed they were not. :laugh:


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## AJmustDIE (Dec 22, 2010)

:beer::beer:


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

PapioGXL said:


> I don't know why this never showed up on my subs. :banghead: Thanks. the equipment is very nice, the process and the operator could use some polishing.
> 
> I've got a rough drawing thrown into CAD, so manipulating them is a nonissue, just mirroring and rotating and a few extra clicks for good measure.
> 
> In all this, I never stopped to take notice whether the dowels were actually oriented in any fashion that made sense- engineers NEVER do things logically like that, so I assumed they were not. :laugh:


Fantastic!! I was wondering if I lost you. I have purchased 2 engines , one is in transit and the other I need to go pickup. So I should know the answer to the dowel position here in a few days. Thanks for your help!!! Mike


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

They are horizontal, or if not just .5 mm or less difference, so any angle would be negligible.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

blown -v6 you can go with any 3.6 fsi..they are basicly the same exepect for cams sw and manifolds..but you wont use any of that anyway.


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

PapioGXL said:


> They are horizontal, or if not just .5 mm or less difference, so any angle would be negligible.


I bought one on E-bay and just made the 11.5 hours round trip tour to pick it up. Its on my lift I used to get it out of my truck but thats as far as going tonight. I did do a few rough(real rough) measurements comparing the VR6 demensions to my starter setup in my dragster. Its going to be close , but I believe the existing starter/flywheel/converter issue can be made to work. This is one of the motors that had the cam drive bolt back out which stopped the cams and the engine. Hoping that when I take it apart I have a good block, crank , head and cams to work with!! Hopefully I will get to looking at it tomorrow. Mike


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

VR6-GT42RS said:


> blown -v6 you can go with any 3.6 fsi..they are basicly the same exepect for cams sw and manifolds..but you wont use any of that anyway.


I read all 81 ?? pages of your build!! You are partially responsible for this quest happening !! As far as Im concerned you are MY hero !!!! You took on a project that had very little aftermarket support and just kept digging forward!! I certainly hoped that you would chime in on this project. 
I hope/pray that you will help provide your personal insite and vast amount of knowledge/info that you have experienced on your project , and help guide this project!!

Thanks for chiming in Mike


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Blown-v6 said:


> Steve, OK a few questions.
> 1. How much work was performed on these heads. I see stage 3 heads but unclear what that is.
> Inlet & outlet ports reworked, seats reworked and better valves with tri-seats. Skimmed head.
> 
> ...


These guys did my head and I'm sure they could help with further questions..
http://www.cncheads.co.uk/?p=833
Steve


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## Blown-v6 (Mar 19, 2013)

PapioGXL said:


> They are horizontal, or if not just .5 mm or less difference, so any angle would be negligible.


Well life is getting in the way right now for me , but a quick check of the dowel holes location compared to the oil pan rail shows a pretty good difference between the two sides from the CL to the pan rail. Im going to get this engine up on an engine stand mounted to the front of the engine so I can check this exactly with guage blocks. So hold off on that adjustment of your demensions so that I can give you the exact CL of the dowels to horizontal !!! Thanks Mike


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