# 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI



## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

While reading this: 20V Hybrid - How To
I have been inspired by Twin_Screw_20V and yellerrado, and encouraged by Wizard-of-OD to start this post to document my build up.
So, here will eventually be the index:
The lucky rabbit:











_Modified by 86JettaWolfsburg at 8:07 PM 4-1-2005_


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*

Here is my parts list:
I will try to provide Part #'s for everything that isn't obvious.
ABA Block
83.5mm JE Forged pistons, 10.5:1 compression ratio
AEB 20V Head, From a '97 Audi A4
Cylinder Head Bolts (10) - 058 103 385BMY
AEB Intake manifold
1.8T Throttle Body
1.8T Fuel rail, Injectors, and FPR
Ignition Wire Set 16V - 027 998 031BR
Cylinder Head Gasket 16V - 048 103 383B (fits 83.5mm Cylinders For stock ABA Cylinders use - 037 103 383 N)
Crankshaft Timing Gear 16/20V - 027 105 263B
Camshaft Timing Gear 16/20V - 027109111H

Misc Pieces:
3/8 NPTF Tap McMC # 2525A215
3/8 NPTF Plugs McMC #44605K233
And here are my part sources:
Europartsdirect.com
McMasterCarr (McMC)



_Modified by 86JettaWolfsburg at 9:58 PM 4-4-2005_


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*

Keep us posted, I cant wait to see pics of your process..


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (Captain16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_Keep us posted, I cant wait to see pics of your process..

Thanks,
Started getting everything out of the engine bay.








I'll be cleaning that mess up alot. Relocating battery, trying to hide all wires and hoses. We'll see how it turns out.








I couldn't resist trying the head on for size.



_Modified by 86JettaWolfsburg at 8:09 PM 4-1-2005_


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## NeedyGTI (May 4, 2004)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*

This project is gonna be frickin awesome. I can't wait for updates.


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (NeedyGTI)*

Looks like its coming along nicely. Witch head is better ? The earlier or later version of the 1.8t head ? Im also thinking about doing the same thing. Keep up the good work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Chris


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (NeedyGTI)*

Awesome.
email me those pictures! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (Captain16vGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Captain16vGTI* »_Witch head is better ? The earlier or later version of the 1.8t head ?

I'm using the early head because:
1. It has larger ports, and theoretically should flow better.
2. I happened to find one at a good price. They are starting to get expensive.
Either one will work, it comes down to which one you can get your hands on.
Dana


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*

That's good to keep in mind for my setup. Any news ??
Chris


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (Captain16vGTI)*

Where are the updates?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*

While I am waiting for parts to arrive I got some work done on preparing the head.
You have to plug the three middle oil galleys on the exhaust side of the head. 








Use a 3/8 NPTF tap and the corresponding plugs.
Since the tap is tapered, check the fit of the plugs occasionally. Try for a full four turns of thread engagement before the plug tightens up.
This is what the first hole looked like:








The NPTF plugs don't require any sealant. I used some red loctite and torqued them to 20 lbs.


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## s3ri3s1 (Jan 12, 2005)

what kind of numbers are you expecting from that setup?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (s3ri3s1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *s3ri3s1* »_what kind of numbers are you expecting from that setup?

To be honest, I don't know







. I haven't even decided how I want to boost it yet, Supercharger or Turbo.
But, with a Velocity Sport 8v head, a 272 cam, CIS fuel, and Electromotive spark I was getting about 150-160 hp. According to the engine builders papers, and the super accurate butt dyno. 
So if I had to guess I would say low 200's is easily achievable. If anyone else has a better guess, please chime in.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*

I would have welded them just for extra security


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## branicVW (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

is that the only mod that needs to be done to the head to get it to mate with the ABA? I heard there are some dowels on the 2 that dont mate properly and some machine work is required, any truth to that?


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## s3ri3s1 (Jan 12, 2005)

oh snap, I just noticed you live in orlando







when can I come out and see this beast?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (branicVW)*

BranicVW- Plugging the oil galleys the only thing you need to do. The plug seal up to 150 psi and I haven't heard of an oil system that produces more pressure than that.
I thought about welding the galleys, but then the head would need machining, which I wanted to avoid.
Read: I'm cheap (when I can be).


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*

I think you would be able to get more then 230whp out of that thing. I have seen many people get around 230whp or more out of a aba16vt so im sure you can get more with the right tuning. Keep up the progress http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Chris


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (branicVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *branicVW* »_is that the only mod that needs to be done to the head to get it to mate with the ABA? I heard there are some dowels on the 2 that dont mate properly and some machine work is required, any truth to that?

Remove the dowels?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*

this isnt the "only thing" you need to do.
new pistons will be required as well.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_this isnt the "only thing" you need to do.
new pistons will be required as well.

not if he is turbo charging the aba bottom end.


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## s3ri3s1 (Jan 12, 2005)

what power levels if it is NA?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (s3ri3s1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *s3ri3s1* »_what power levels if it is NA?

If he is staying NA THEN he will have to change those pistons.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
not if he is turbo charging the aba bottom end.

you sure??
a 20v seems like it would hit the piston.
not being a jerk, but do you even know the comp ratio?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_you sure??
a 20v seems like it would hit the piston.
not being a jerk, but do you even know the comp ratio?

8.5:1 or there abouts.Yes the piston will need to be notched for the #5 valve just to be certain.


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## richyrich212t (Apr 7, 2002)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (Wizard-of-OD)*

what motor mounts are being used ???????/


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## Wishy Washy (Feb 14, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (richyrich212t)*

Factory mk1 engine mounts. They bolt right up to the aba block with no probems..

Chris


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## white86gti (Feb 19, 2005)

in the first post you say you are going to run 10.5:1 comp?... is that a typo... that is alot for a boosted motor... imo.
looking good though


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_this isnt the "only thing" you need to do.


Speed - You're right, there will be plenty more done. But, branicVW asked:

_Quote, originally posted by *branicVW* »_is that the only mod that needs to be done to the *head* 

And it is.

_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
a 20v seems like it would hit the piston.


The block already has 83.5mm JE pistons installed. I'll be pulling the engine soon to check the main and rod bearings and I'll check for valve clearance then. There will be pictures of what I find.

_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
not being a jerk, but do you even know the comp ratio?


_Quote, originally posted by *white86gti* »_in the first post you say you are going to run 10.5:1 comp?

The pistons are JE 83.5mm 10.5:1 C/R, but the 8v head's combustion chamber is only 29cc and the AEB chamber is 43cc.
So the compression ratio works out to a very boostable 9.0:1, it would be even lower with stock pistons, but mine are bigger than stock. I made a rather involved Excel spreadsheet to figure it all out.

_Quote, originally posted by *richyrich212t* »_what motor mounts are being used ???????/

I'm going to use urethane A1 side mounts, but the front mount was allowing way too much movement at the previous power levels, so something else will have to be figured out.


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

Oh, I forgot that the first box of parts arrived today too.








It only took two days to get here from NY.
Areally big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Europartsdirect.com from me.


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## s3ri3s1 (Jan 12, 2005)

ahh ok, ya I too saw the 10.5 comp ratio and I thought it was going to be NA


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## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: 20V 2.0 in a '83 GTI (86JettaWolfsburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *86JettaWolfsburg* »_
I'm using the early head because:
1. It has larger ports, and theoretically should flow better.
2. I happened to find one at a good price. They are starting to get expensive.
Either one will work, it comes down to which one you can get your hands on.
Dana

thats cool that i inspired you








anyway.. with heads anything that has variable valve timing will have to be changed to a solid setup like from awd or similar and previous head.. just swapping out the chain tensioner in the head will slove that problem... for example im runin aww head which is normally vvt but put a tensioner from a awd head in it.. worked out well cuz i sold the vvt tensioner for as much as i paid for the head


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

wait a minute, let me get this strait, you can use an ABA block for a 1.8t swap? I thought the blocks were different. what else is there to do? change fuel systems and ECU?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Flipdriver80)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flipdriver80* »_wait a minute, let me get this strait, you can use an ABA block for a 1.8t swap? I thought the blocks were different. what else is there to do? change fuel systems and ECU?

VW Engines = LEGO http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Yes you can put a 20V head on any 8V block


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## EDM_v-dub (Mar 16, 2003)

I am curious on this too. Rebuilding the block on my ABA, then runing a 20v n/a, what kind of results would i be looking at? what ecu would need to be used? will my OBD2 mk3 stuff work?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (EDM_v-dub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EDM_v-dub* »_Rebuilding the block on my ABA, then runing a 20v n/a, what kind of results would i be looking at?

The 20v head on a stock ABA block has a compression ratio of aproximately 8.5:1. So it wouldn't produce much power without help...IE BOOST! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *EDM_v-dub* »_ what ecu would need to be used? will my OBD2 mk3 stuff work?

I don't know about all this. I am going to use standalone engine management, like the others did.
My gut feeling is that none of the stock VW ECU's will work without extensive (expensive) chip reprogramming.


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*

I recieved my Intake, Throttle Body, Fuel Rail, and Injectors today. All stock AEB stuff...for now.








There will be little work progress for the next couple of weeks, as I have finals for school, my brother-in-law's wedding, and a Competition coming up for work.
Isn't life great.











_Modified by 86JettaWolfsburg at 4:43 PM 4-14-2005_


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## deathhare (Mar 4, 2001)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*

I thought you couldnt use that intake?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (deathhare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *deathhare* »_I thought you couldnt use that intake?

I'll be cutting it and adding a custom plenum.
I have two if anyone else needs one, maybe we can work something out.
Edit: I finally learned how to spell.


_Modified by 86JettaWolfsburg at 4:37 PM 4-14-2005_


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## 20vmk1gti (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (86JettaWolfsburg)*

why didnt you just use a transverse intake manifold?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (20vmk1gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20vmk1gti* »_why didnt you just use a transverse intake manifold?

I don't think the AEB motors were ever transverse mounted, so I would have needed to cut the manifold ports of the intake to match the AEB head.
But since I think I am going to supercharge it and I need to keep the A/C (Florida + black car = HOT







) The front of the engine bay is getting very crowded. I think I will have to shorten the intake runners and replace the plenum anyway.
So by using the AEB intake I am actually saving a step ... I think.
Have I confused anyone with my logic?


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (EDM_v-dub)*

where is the aba/20v writeup? can somone link me?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (the4ork)*

20V Hybrid - How To


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*... One month later*

After a month of "Real Life", I finally got to get back in the garage. I'll have the engine out this weekend and will be checking on bearings and piston / valve clearance. I'll try to get pictures for all to see.
Meanwhile ... I am trying to come up with a solution.
Here's the problem:
















That's what the engine did to the A1 front engine mount, when it was making 150ish Hp. You can see where the P.O. had it welded. It probably kept it from ripping off all together.
I am thinking of fabbing a VR6 type front mount. Do you think that's overkill?


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: ... One month later (86JettaWolfsburg)*

New Crank and Rod Bearings are installed, not much exciting there.
It is nice to be putting parts back on now. I've already taken longer than I would have liked. I had to find a 19mm 12pt socket to remove the Crank Pulley Bolt, I finally found one at Lowes of all places.








There is .2265" (5.75mm) difference in the height of the two pulleys.
I am also doing a Serpentine Belt Conversion. So, I could either space the accessory pulleys out, buy a conversion pulley, or modify one myself. I did the last one.








I marked the orientation of the mounting face by scratching two marks on the circumference of the pulley. Then, on a lathe, I cut the face off and removed .2265" of material.








Two bollts temporarily secure the face, I used the scratch marks and the two remaining holes to re-align it.








I'm teaching myself to Tig weld. So, naturally I welded the mounting face onto the Pulley.


_Modified by 86JettaWolfsburg at 4:37 PM 6-6-2005_


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## EDM_v-dub (Mar 16, 2003)

right on, i think i may have the head for mine. As far as management, I think i might buy megasquirt. I havent seen anyone do it in an obd2 car, but oh well, I havent seen any N/A ABA 20V's either


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## MK1SRocc (Jan 7, 2003)

Very little progress today.
Turns out there two AEB timing belts, this one from the dealership ended up a little short.








The two part #'s are: 
058 109 119 C, Too short (153 teeth). And,
*058 109 119 A*, This is the one we want.
Now I have to go back to the dealership.









One more thing:
If the 8v intermediate shaft is going to be used, a 3/8" thick spacer is needed to align the Timing Belt Pulleys.


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## wagenbob (Dec 10, 2003)

*Re: ... One month later (86JettaWolfsburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *86JettaWolfsburg* »_Meanwhile ... I am trying to come up with a solution.
Here's the problem:
















That's what the engine did to the A1 front engine mount, when it was making 150ish Hp. You can see where the P.O. had it welded. It probably kept it from ripping off all together.
I am thinking of fabbing a VR6 type front mount. Do you think that's overkill?

If you want, I have the e-mail address for a gentleman (Eric) that has made a1 front motor mount reinforcement braces. I bought one for use in a 16v scirocco, and it will keep your motor from ripping the front cross member. It cost me $175 shipped.
Some sort of reinforcement is a must with that much HP.


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## Boostin20v (Mar 22, 2000)

*Re: ... One month later (wagenbob)*

was this ever finished? if so, and we can get more info posted about the process I'll post a link to this thread in the mk1 20v FAQ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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