# ECS 2pc rotor temps



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Well, Saturday I had a chance to compare my 20th with a 337 at a road course. My 20th was on A032R running P+/HP+ on stock rotors. The 337 was on MXs running HP+/HP+ and had ECS 2pc front rotors, stock rears. The 337 driver pushes a lot more through the turns and I think I might use my brakes a little more. However after 2 different sessions I checked rotors temps. We both had dust sheilds off and no ducting. The 2pc rotors were 230-260F where my stock rotors were 500-550F.







I think I will be picking up some of those rotors...


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (AutoXMan)*

Finally! I have been saying this for a while now. ECS or not, a good rotor design will really help in the cooling department.


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (Stewz-GTI)*

Ha ha... now how could i have expected to see Stew in here








Course... you prolly think the same thing from me.


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (osbornsm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *osbornsm* »_Ha ha... now how could i have expected to see Stew in here








Course... you prolly think the same thing from me.


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (Stewz-GTI)*

OH, and were those slotted drilled... which ones did you buy?


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (osbornsm)*

The 337 was on slotted 2pc, not drilled. Mine were solid OEM style, though made by Brembo.


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (AutoXMan)*

I have the Stage 2v2 front and 1R rear upgrades on my 2003 GLI and at both BeaveRun and Nelson Ledges, running HPS front and rear, the only fade issue I had was strictly fluid-related - at BeaveRun, I still had the original OE fluid in it - and it was flushed with ATE Super Blue for Nelson a week later. Both tracks have heavy braking areas at the end of the back straight (from 105 to 45 at BR and 110 to 50 at NL). Never had any issues.
Both front and rear are drilled and slotted.


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Well, Saturday I had a chance to compare my 20th with a 337 at a road course. My 20th was on A032R running P+/HP+ on stock rotors. The 337 was on MXs running HP+/HP+ and had ECS 2pc front rotors, stock rears. The 337 driver pushes a lot more through the turns and I think I might use my brakes a little more. However after 2 different sessions I checked rotors temps. We both had dust sheilds off and no ducting. The 2pc rotors were 230-260F where my stock rotors were 500-550F.







I think I will be picking up some of those rotors...

Wow! I had a feeling they were better, but damn, that's excellent. When my fronts go, I'm getting them.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (dcomiskey)*

Yep. It sheds a little light on why I toasted a set of DS2500 at Road America while my 337 friend had no issues at all. The stock vented rotors are straight, and the ECS 2pc are curved vane. That and I think the metal is more heat-dissipating than the iron stockers. Heck, my WHEELS were the same temp as his rotors.


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Heck, my WHEELS were the same temp as his rotors.









That's actually kind of a scary thought, huh?


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (collins_tc)*

A little, but that's why I bought good wheels for the track. 200F isn't bad, they can see that heat in direct sun.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (AutoXMan)*

So what exactly is reducing the rotor temperature?
Is it because the rotor is 2-piece? I would tend to discount this as a possibility as the 2-piece rotor has less mass, and thus less heat capacity. So I would have to assume the curved shape of the internal vanes is more efficient at channeling air compared to the stright cut oem rotors. I guess it is possible that some heat treatment or post-processing of the rotors will make them more conductive as well.
Were both cars using the same wheels? The wheel acts as a secondary heat sink and are vital to cooling the rotors.


_Modified by phatvw at 6:04 PM 6-7-2005_


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (phatvw)*

The lower temperatures are most likely due to the internal vanes of the two piece rotors. Most performance rotors are vaned to act similar to an air pump. Air is pulled from the hub area and accelerated toward the outside of the rotor. Two piece rotors also tend to have a larger opening in the center allowing for more air to be pushed outward.
Steve


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: ECS 2pc rotor temps (reflexgti)*

No, conditions were definitely NOT labaratory. Different drivers, cars, wheels, suspension, weights, and pads. All but the drivers and tires were very _similar_ but not the same. The track, temps, laps, and cool down were the same.
I would venture to guess the main cooling advantage is in the vanes. They act very much like the fan in your furnace, slinging the air out and filling the center with fresh air. It *could* also be the thermal transfer ability of the rotors. They might not have the heat sink capacity my of my stock iron rotors, but that doesn't mean they can't shed the heat faster.
After destroying DS2500 from overheating them, I'm pretty darn impressed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif No, I don't work for ECS.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

After getting the rotors and running them I can elaborate a little more. The cooling effect is definitely due to the curved vanes and larger air channel. The center vents are MUCH larger on the 2pc rotor. I didn't measure, but it could be double. If you look at the stock rotors, there just isn't much chance of drawing air through them. The channel is quite small, and the vanes don't go all the way to the end. I doubt there is much air flow at all.
The 337 guy and I went to a 2 day event this past weekend. Same cars and only change is he upgraded his tires to R comps (Toyo RA1, I think). If anything, this would lower his brake temps since you need less braking to enter a corner. Last time, my rotors were 2-300F higher than his. This time, dead even. 320-350F for both cars in 90F at an event where we hit 110 or so on one straight, and 80+ on two others. All 3 straights led into hard braking zones. We measured after 3 or 4 sessions with no real variation.
So I think that's a pretty good comparison. Using the 337 as the 'control' you can see that my rotor temps dropped significantly. I HIGHLY recommend these rotors. Keep in mind that your pads and fluid still need to handle the heat in them (which can be higher) but at least the rotor isn't going to come apart from the heat.


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## homeless (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

what pads did you run with the new rotors?


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (homeless)*

Same as before. I had Panther + FR, HP+ Rear. 337 was HP+ all around and had some fade by the end.


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Good info Mr autox...
But your rotors only get up to 500F ??
Mine rutinely see 800 F with Carbotech P+ and i have ducting!!!
So I REALLY need better cooling.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (osbornsm)*

Wow, 800F is insane. Is that when you pull in and measure them, or do you have temp paint? My measurements were all after a cool down lap and taken in the pits. So I'm sure our track temps are going higher.


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Wow, 800F is insane. Is that when you pull in and measure them, or do you have temp paint? My measurements were all after a cool down lap and taken in the pits. So I'm sure our track temps are going higher.

No, he is hanging out the window in a braking zone with the IR Gun.








That's down from ~1200 I think before the ducting.


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

The 800F is with the SAME pads that you are running. 
The 800F is AFTER the 2 mile cool down lap. So they are probably 1200F during race.
They are 650-750 with ducting now.
I measure in the pits with an IR gun.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (osbornsm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *osbornsm* »_The 800F is with the SAME pads that you are running. 
The 800F is AFTER the 2 mile cool down lap. So they are probably 1200F during race.
They are 650-750 with ducting now.
I measure in the pits with an IR gun.


Hey do you think you could run a few laps with a GPS or something? I'm really curious to see a chart of all your brake zones.
Here is a typical braking zone chart for my car on my local racetrack (estimated - no gps for me):
braking zone # | initial speed | final speed
1 | 122 | 61
2 | 95 | 40
3 | 45 | 30
4 | 90 | 70
5 | 100 | 65
Its a weird course with 9 turns, but only 5 braking zones








My best lap time for the 2.25 mile course is 1:54 with an average speed of about 71mph.


_Modified by phatvw at 5:01 PM 7-13-2005_


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Hey phat... i'm curious as to why you are searching braking zones. Can you elaborate any for me?
I do not have access to a GPS system or a data logger. Still working on affording brakes !!
But here's 2 track maps of the places i usually run, if that helps any








*Gingerman Raceway* = 1.88 mi & 11 turn








*Autobahn Country Club*
http://www.autobahncountryclub.net/track.html


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (osbornsm)*

Well I'm just kinda thinking out loud about how much braking is going on during a certain span of time.
If we can get data about all the brake events in a lap such as:
- initial speed
- final speed
- vehicle mass
- time between brake events
We can calculate how much energy is being converted into heat. Then based on the permeability of the materials used and flow rate of air past the rotor, we can predict what your brake temperatures should be...

I guess I'm kinda _pulling a Pyce_ here and likely getting in waaaaaaay over my head....

BTW looks like that first track has 7 braking zones. Does that sound about right?


_Modified by phatvw at 5:37 PM 7-13-2005_


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Wow, you are certainly more inclined than myself. If you can figure it out go nuts. But i have ducting as well, so won't that skew your numbers if you include other vehicles in your dataset?
And correct 7 zones in 1.9 miles = Braking every 1/4 mile (ish)


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (osbornsm)*

Since you're measuring the same way I am and have the same pads, I can only guess that the R32s' extra weight is a factor. You could definitely benefit from some better vented rotors. Going to Gingerman this weekend? I'll be there Fri (CVO) and Sat (NASA).


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Did someone say they wanted GPS data?
















More here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1421073


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Dude that is amazing! I love the visualization!
How much did the hardware+software cost (minus the laptop of course!)


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## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
If we can get data about all the brake events in a lap such as:
- initial speed
- final speed
- vehicle mass
- time between brake events
We can calculate how much energy is being converted into heat. Then based on the permeability of the materials used and flow rate of air past the rotor, we can predict what your brake temperatures should be...



WOW. I am thinking about all of the variables you will have to take into account and all the crazy amounts of calculations that could be done, and it's making my brain hurt. How are you going to determine flow rate of air over the brakes? Do you have access to a wind tunnel? 
If you want to undertake this














to you. Me, I'll just worry about hitting my turn-in and apex points.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

...and your brake markers!


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Okay, I took a quick few and put this together. It is the same track day as my first post. The graph should give you all the info you need.










_Modified by Stewz-GTI at 8:08 PM 7-14-2005_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

This is awesome!
You can look at the slopes of those curves and see how "smooth" you are with your braking. Looks like something happened during the 2nd big braking zone. Don't think its ABS cause your'e only pulling 0.7 G's. Perhaps a heel-toe manouver that wasn't as solid as it could have been?
Man I can see how this would improve your driving!


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_This is awesome!
You can look at the slopes of those curves and see how "smooth" you are with your braking. Looks like something happened during the 2nd big braking zone. Don't think its ABS cause your'e only pulling 0.7 G's. Perhaps a heel-toe manouver that wasn't as solid as it could have been?
Man I can see how this would improve your driving!

Your dead on with your guess. I f'd my heel toe, actual my foot slipped cause it was wet. (raining that day hence low g)


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## ChinaTownCBC (May 10, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

I have the ECS 12.3" 1-piece slotted/x-drilled rotors with mintex pads.
3 minutes after finishing the track, I measured the temperature of my brakes discs with a Raytek infrared temperature sensor. The rotors came to 124C (255.2F) and the Brembo caliper came to 71C (160F).


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

3 minutes is way to long to wait. As you can see, your rotors had plenty of time to cool off. 
Expect temps in over 500deg F
To get a good mesurement, do at least 5 hot laps and pull into the first pitbox that is safely available. Have the probe/gun in the car with you so you can jump out and measure.


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

[THIS PAGE IS BROUGHT TO YOU IN PART BY: Stewz-GTI]








It would be nice if we could get something like this too: 










_Modified by Stewz-GTI at 2:29 PM 7-15-2005_


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## ChinaTownCBC (May 10, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_3 minutes is way to long to wait. As you can see, your rotors had plenty of time to cool off. 
Expect temps in over 500deg F
To get a good mesurement, do at least 5 hot laps and pull into the first pitbox that is safely available. Have the probe/gun in the car with you so you can jump out and measure. 


I'll try to do that next time. Seriously.


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Hey stew... does a cool down lap count against rotor temps?
I measure mine after the cool down lap _as soon as _i park in the padock.

And why is Stew so interested in rotor temps like I am. Any history behind that?


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (osbornsm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *osbornsm* »_Hey stew... does a cool down lap count against rotor temps?
I measure mine after the cool down lap _as soon as _i park in the padock.

And why is Stew so interested in rotor temps like I am. Any history behind that?

If your trying to measure rotor tempature, then yes a







down lap will hurt your reading. Go directly to pit, measure, and then head out for your cool down lap. 
If your temps are as I remeber them after a cool down lap, then your car should be on fire.


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## osbornsm (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_If your temps are as I remeber them after a cool down lap, then your car should be on fire.









...let's see... 700F after 3 minutes of driving without touching the brake pedal. That's about .... 1200 under braking on the track. Yea that's some fire there








Braking is cool


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (osbornsm)*

I need to find my Dad's old pyrometer. I'm doing an HPDE this coming Friday at BeaveRun (www.beaverun.com) and I have ECS 2-piece rotors front and back. It would be interesting to see what my temps are...


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## homeless (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: (collins_tc)*

don't know who still follows this thread but...
we are trying to start a groub buy for these ECS 12.3" TT floating rotors if anybody is interested. We have 7 interested now and it will probably take 10-12 to get ECS' attention. If you are interested, check it out...
GB on 12.3" TT floating rotors


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## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (homeless)*

I wanna keep this thread close to the GB thread just for informative purposes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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