# Need expert help!



## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm sad 

This is the email i just ended up sending to Gloria @ Air Zenith about my compressor problems. Pictures below. 

CAN YOU GUYS HELP ME to figure out what i could have possibly done wrong to make my compressors (the good ones) fail so much? I honestly cannot understand it, i have tried to rack my brain to think of anything but have come up with just ****ty luck or ****tier luck. 


_Hi Gloria,

You have taken care of me in the past, one of my compressor heads failed and destroyed the cylinder wall so i sent it back to you for parts.

Just today i decided to check on my compressors (i have 3 of them) and there is more bad news. 

Compressor 1 - I caught it before the cylinder walls were torn up too much, but it took a nick out of the piston and there are metal shavings in the casing. This must have jammed the piston hard because i cannot even get the piston/counterweight off of the motor assembly, i removed the bolt that holds the counterweight assembly onto the motor and it was mashed up on the head so i cannot even just use one of the piston rebuild kits that i got from you guys.

If that wasn't enough compressor number 2 failed as well. I noticed this last week and took it apart and found the piston ring again was toast. Cylinder walls were fine on this one so i threw on a rebuild kit that i got from you, but again the counterweight assembly screw that holds it all on the shaft of the motor was all stripped and the head was mashed. I took a look at the motor shaft and there was noticable gouges out of it, so i thought that i could just put a dab of JB weld on to fill the hold and then i could fasten it back on. Still wouldn't work, it pumped, but almost zero volume with absolutely no pressure so i took it apart again to send back to you guys this week anyways.

Compressor 3 - this one i decided to run on its own, it is really struggling to reach 200psi, it seems to hit about 170 and then slows to a snails pace. I think it had a thermal trip about 5 minutes ago when i tried to run it to fill my tank, so i'm not going to be running it anymore and I would like to send it back or something, i'm hesitant and don't even want to open it up at all just for warranty issues alone.


Now i have a few questions, is there something I am doing personally to make these fail? I have mounted all 3 of them on a metal frame, and used rubber mounts on that frame to prevent vibration transfers. I used proper gauges or wires throughout my entire install etc. I just don't understand what i'm doing wrong for these compressors to all fail like this.

This is a link to my build thread for my airride system, it should give you any pictures that you require of my setup and how i have run things: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5585113-A-very-technical-build-PART-II

Could you please discuss internally and see if there is something you or I could do here? I'm at a complete loss for what to do, i want to fix the problem so it doesn't keep happening when i send compressors back to get rebuilt.

Thanks a lot, if you have any questions or want to discuss via phone my number is XXX-XXX-XXXX

Sean Clements_










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## fasttt600 (Apr 12, 2007)

wow, sux man. Keep this updated to what they say. I am in the process of switching to 2 ob2's and and interested in how they handle the customer service. good luck


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

They were really good about it last time this happened, sent me new parts without having to send down the entire compressor (tons of shipping due to weight from Canada).


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## toplessvw (Jul 31, 2003)

are your compressors isolated from each other? I am just throwing out some ideas here, but if one compressor is running it will vibrate the other two as they are mounted on the same rail. Maybe that vibration at start up of the other compressors is causing the damage. If all three were mounted with seperate issolaters would the problem persist?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

toplessvw said:


> are your compressors isolated from each other? I am just throwing out some ideas here, but if one compressor is running it will vibrate the other two as they are mounted on the same rail. Maybe that vibration at start up of the other compressors is causing the damage. If all three were mounted with seperate issolaters would the problem persist?


True, the compressors each have their own rubber feet, and the frame hardly shakes when the compressors are running (used to be running). I thought of that too but i'm not convinced that its a problem


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

Yikes dude, sorry to see this! 

I've never seen anything like this from AZ before, I hope its an isolated incident.


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Yikes dude, sorry to see this!
> 
> I've never seen anything like this from AZ before, I hope its an isolated incident.


seems that the AZ compressors never have issues...that being said, and the nature of your build i would tend to lean towards your isolated mounting system.

there could be some value into exploring the harmonics associated with running the 3 compressors that are all solid mounted to a frame that is then isolated. it has been years since i have worked with vibration/harmonics, however i know there are some very odd phenomenon that can occur (multiple "orders" of vibrations caused by different things); this seems particularly curious that all of the compressors mounted together like that, now they have all had some sort of failure before and now again.

that being said, have you ever thought bout "flipping" the middle one? in theory that is going to counter act the harmonic of all three compressors turning the same direction.

might be worth a shot.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Yikes dude, sorry to see this!
> 
> I've never seen anything like this from AZ before, I hope its an isolated incident.


Thanks for the comment, i hope its an isolated incident as well.



fouckhest said:


> seems that the AZ compressors never have issues...that being said, and the nature of your build i would tend to lean towards your isolated mounting system.
> 
> there could be some value into exploring the harmonics associated with running the 3 compressors that are all solid mounted to a frame that is then isolated. it has been years since i have worked with vibration/harmonics, however i know there are some very odd phenomenon that can occur (multiple "orders" of vibrations caused by different things); this seems particularly curious that all of the compressors mounted together like that, now they have all had some sort of failure before and now again.
> 
> ...


That is true, harmonics do play funny games on rotating equipments. I might have to mount each compressor individually with its own isolation frame....

Another idea i had was that I live up here in Calgary. -40 degree weather is common, and lets just say i used my airride a ton this winter, compressors would turn on 2 or 3 times per day, heat up then cool down then heat up then cool down etc. You think that played a factor in this as well?


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Thanks for the comment, i hope its an isolated incident as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i would think temp would play less of a role than vibration/harmonics would; depending on your plan of action to repair the damaged units, i would either begin with staggering them or isolating each compressor, the latter being the best option, but not sure what your time frame and situation is with relying on this vehicle.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

I am currently just filling the tanks via air compressor i have at home via an inflation valve. The compressors will be out this weekend and i might as well start building new frames before the new comps arrive...


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

sounds like a good plan...will be interested to hear how the rebuild goes.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Ordered a bunch of new smaller vibration mounts, a few different styles too so i will see what i like the looks/feel of and the good thing is i can even stack them on top of each other if i need/want more isolation 










on top of soft durometer these


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

just a thought, have you ever contacted anyone at the mfg about possible issues with them being dampened that much? could there be some sort of effect because of the added torque due to the loss of a solid mount?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Ive tried, no response yet. 

Also i don't think that the torque/lack of torque is an issue. The frame is pretty solidly mounted, doesn't move around at all during operation


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Would anybody have any concerns if i used a mini air bag to hold each compressor?


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Ive tried, no response yet.
> 
> Also i don't think that the torque/lack of torque is an issue. The frame is pretty solidly mounted, doesn't move around at all during operation


okay, interested to hear if they say anything...i looked on the AZ site and didnt really have much in regards to mounting the unit. i would just be interested to know what/if there would be any added effects of additional deflection? i almost feel like this was a 
"perfect storm" scenario; all comps rotating the same direction, then the added dampening could have effectively had them all out of balance and basically tearing themselves apart...

...in case you cant tell im slow at work today, so i have been pondering this :laugh:


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

It very well could have been the perfect storm scenario 

Also i can't flip one of them because it wouldn't fit so the only thing i can do is isolate them a bit further, but them again whats to say that the sheet metal won't do the exact same thing as the frame has done??


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Heard back from Gloria!

I'm going to send all 3 compressors down to the states to Air Zenith for them to assess the damages/what could have been the cause. 2 of them are still in warranty, 1 of them is a few months out 
Oh well, i will probably have to buy 1 new one, i hope they have white in their stocks still


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## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time believing these compressors are failing due to vibration.

I'm thinking more along the lines of an electrical issue here. I would first check the motors amperage draw with a multimeter and compare that to air zenith's run load amperage rating on the one remaining compressor. If the amperage rating is above their accepted range, there may be some sort of bearing failure causing complete motor failure. I'm also curious if you may have blown a capacitor. How certain are you that your compressors are receiving "clean", consistent, acceptable power? 

I'm also thinking that running three motors in a confined space is asking for trouble in terms of heat.

Just a few thoughts. I am by no means an electric motor or compressor expert, so take my advice with a grain of salt. :laugh:


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

hyphytrain203 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time believing these compressors are failing due to vibration.
> 
> I'm thinking more along the lines of an electrical issue here. I would first check the motors amperage draw with a multimeter and compare that to air zenith's run load amperage rating on the one remaining compressor. If the amperage rating is above their accepted range, there may be some sort of bearing failure causing complete motor failure. I'm also curious if you may have blown a capacitor. How certain are you that your compressors are receiving "clean", consistent, acceptable power?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply here.

All the compressors have always been run above 12V, usually closer to 13V when all 3 of them are on, when 2 of them are on they have always been at 13.5V or higher so i can't see voltage/amperage being a problem. 

They never used to get extremely hot, used to be cool to the touch. Now only the head gets hot, the motors are cool still except from conductive heat from the head so i don't think there is any motor problems here.

To combat this motor/overheating issue i also included 3 cooling fans that pull cool air from the trunk and are aimed at the compressors, dealing 30cfm or something and even in the summer i used to be able to fill the tank then open the trunk/floor and they wouldn't even be hot.

Thanks for the thoughts, i will see what they say about it when they bench test the motors next week :thumbup:


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## Iku (Mar 11, 2009)

In for results and potential new build. Sorry to see this has happened, one of my favourite builds.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Well i'm going to end up making another thread i guess about the rebuild. Taking care to change:
- No harmonic vibrations between compressors
- the possibility that the flow is choking the flow between the compressors so they will all be plumbed individually to the 3 gallon tank
- Increase wire sizes to ensure proper amp flow to compressors, also might put in ammeters and volt gauges to make sure that its working like it should 

:thumbup:


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Received my new smaller vibration isolators. The old ones i used were rated for about 600lbs each, these ones are rated for 50lb or so each so they are much softer. Also got additional lateral vibration absorbers.

Standard mounts don't have a lot of angular or horizontal play. 

Sandwich mounts have a lot of angular deflection.

What combination do you think i should use? My initial thought is to just use the standard mounts, 1 under each connection point of the compressors (4 per comp) and just call it a day. That way the compressors aren't shaking back and forth too much. My reasoning is that without a whole lot of movement there isn't going to be inertia working against my pistons, forcing the rings to get worn out faster. 

Or do you guys think that more movement is better?

opcorn:


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

only the cylindrical shaped (sandwich) units, one on each corner (4/compressor), with the compressors staggered in some way as to oppose the harmonics...i know you said that would be difficult if you utilized the same mount, not sure if you find a way to individually mount them or not?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

I really don't want to stagger them but if i have to then i have to....

I'm just going to drill through the bottom of the trunk well and mount them directly to the sheet metal. Its already dampened so i'm not too worried about it


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> I really don't want to stagger them but if i have to then i have to....
> 
> I'm just going to drill through the bottom of the trunk well and mount them directly to the sheet metal. Its already dampened so i'm not too worried about it


well couple ways of looking at it...you have a pretty nice frame already, so if you wanted to use that you very easily could...looks like all your compressors are connected with PTC fittings, so shouldnt be more difficult than buying a couple of fittings and making it work...i would tend to think that utilizing that nice solid mount and buying a couple fittings would be better than drilling holes in the spare tire well, which is pretty flimsy sheet metal...


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

I took the frame apart already. Maybe i will just use the laterals as the new frame and go from there. 

I'm actually going to plumb them all into the tank individually now, getting 3 new bungs welded on. Just to make sure that the pulses from each compressor are not creating some sort of instantaneous backpressure or vacuum effect on each other. Trying to eliminate as many possible causes as I can.

:thumbup:


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Just to make sure that the pulses from each compressor are not creating some sort of instantaneous backpressure or vacuum effect on each other.


wouldnt the check valve at the head of each compressor already cover that concern?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Hmmm maybe it would dampen it a bit, but im talking more about the fact that there will be varying backpressures possibly on the check valves at different times. Of course i don't know what the flows really are or what their cycle times are but with the very small amount of piping joining the valves (about 8" of 1/2" tubing) there can definitely be room for fluctuations. At least that is one of my thoughts. 

Just want to mitigate anything i see as a potential detriment. Don't want this happening again. At all. for any reason.


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

i guess it would all depend on the check value, how much pressure will cause to to close, etc....but point take on mitigating all possibilities for future failure...

good luck!

p.s. - i mounted my new compressor this weekend and probably thought way more about it b/c of this thread! lol


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Haha. What did you do differently?


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Haha. What did you do differently?


it just had to go in a different spot behind the rear pass panel...i used to have a single Thomas compressor mounted to the b-pillar, but upgraded to a 444 so i had to make a bracket that grabbed the fender flange then drilled holes thru the inner fender and used some long bolts to support the other mounts...you would have to see it to understand what i did :laugh:


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Pictures! 

Is it outside the car behind the rear wheel it kinda sounds like?

opcorn:


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

no, its inside the car...you would have to see the interior of the rear of my car to understand....if you have seen my car, it is located behind one of the aluminum panels where the rear door cars used to live


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Right. By where the rear speakers used to be but slightly rear of that? That's cool.


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## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Right. By where the rear speakers used to be but slightly rear of that? That's cool.


you got it


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## Rat4Life (Oct 14, 2004)

hey man i was thinking last time your compressor failed and looked over your system, are you running all 3 of them in trough one 3/8 water trap?
if so i think that could be your problem, i just wonder if 3 az compressors make too much air flow to go pass one 3/8" water trap and causing a lot of back pressure witch leads into piston failure.
i dont know if you look into that already, i didn't read the whole thread.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey thx for the reply. Yes all 3 AZ's are going through a single 3/8" water trap. I already thought of that and looking up in the SMC spec sheets for the water trap I have, running at the pressures and flows I'm running with the micron size of the filters there is less than 1psi added backpressure which I personally didn't consider a big deal. Now if you tell me that the decimal some odd extra psi is going to make a difference, I'm intrigued to learn why  

But then again anything is possible, what if 80% of the filter is clogged with debris and its addint a ton of backpressure because only a bit of the surface area of the filter is useable? Mineral deposits and rust deposits from the humidity and fittings/comp might very well have played into this. 

This is why I'm giving up the initial water trap in my redesign. The buffer tank does its job extremely well and as long as I have my water trap between my two tanks I think ill be fine. Then I can run each comp directly into the tank, hopefully making a better flow pattern for the compressors not to wear out like this. 

Again, your response is greatly appreciated and I'm 99% sure other people are on here reading and learning from my mistake, whatever it was, and might think twice before just throwing together a system.


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## Rat4Life (Oct 14, 2004)

if you really want to test my theory i would trow couple of analog gauges before and after water trap and see if there is a big pressure difference when compressors running, this way you should be able to see if water trap is really blocking a lot of airflow. but i would just ditch the trap all together and hopefully it helps. time will tell.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Heard back from AZ on the compressors. 

I'm not 100% sure what they mean so i will ask you guys about it. They say that i altered the relay incorrectly when i relocated the relays to the electrical panel. They say that the relay is also part of the thermal protection system, essentially a controller for it. Anybody have any thoughts about how the relay can act as a thermal protector or any reason why the thermal protection system needs to use the relay as a control? 

My only thought is that the thermal relay would cut out the ground to the 86 pin on the relay, stopping the power to the compressor. Some type of thermal switch in which it is connected and then switches open when it reaches a certain temperature. 

That is my only though, anyone have any experience with that? 


Also i'm not 100% sure that it is the cause of my issue, it maybe only made things worse. Why would they overheat in the first place?? I had cooling fans. The compressors have their own fans. I just don't get it, they ran cool to the touch when i ran them...


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## Rat4Life (Oct 14, 2004)

i dont think your relay wiring has anything to do with your problem, thermal protection would only be needed if your compressors running too much , but because you have 3 of them they only go on for short period of time at the time, so i dont think it would matter./ 
i know when on viair compressor you run one for too long, lets say playing up and down non stop it could overheat and thermal protection would kick on by killing compressor for 20 min or so./ 
i think az looking for a problem in the wrong place./


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

I completely agree that they are trying to avoid the main issue here. Yes i modified the relays so that in essence, there is no thermal protection on the compressor, but why were they overheating in the first place is my big question....They run for no longer than like 3 minutes at a time i think. 

Yes i agree that i read the thermal protection incorrectly, i thought there was going to be an internal thermal protection relay like with most standard motors ive seen but this isn't the case, the thermal protection trips the exterior relay. This i bet eventually lead to the demise of my compressors, but i am still confused as to what started them overheating in the first place?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Compressors are rebuilt by Air Zenith Tech's :thumbup: 

Each compressor only costs $80 to completely rebuild, test, and verify that its working up to their standards :thumbup: 

I live in Canada and compressors are heavy so shipping costs to and from Las Vegas costs more than the repair cost :thumbdown: 

Overall pretty happy, costs me less than $500 to get all 3 of them working again. Minor mistake on my part, but i'm still going to take every precaution not to screw up again. 

Vibration isolation is revised. 
New ports getting welded on tank. 
No initial water trap. 
Redoing the wiring to keep the relays now attached to the compressor. 

Let's hope they stay working for a long time now 

opcorn:


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## Iku (Mar 11, 2009)

Hey dude glad to hear you're getting it sorted. 
In for updated pictures when done! 

Are you going to gcvw?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Update

Still dont have these compressors back. Not happy. Haven't even shipped yet, they don't seem to even care.

:banghead:


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## Built2Drive (Jan 15, 2010)

MechEngg said:


> Update
> 
> Still dont have these compressors back. Not happy. Haven't even shipped yet, they don't seem to even care.
> 
> :banghead:


Welcome to owning an AZ compressor. I've seen enough issues in the Mini Truck world to not run them. Its nice how they can always come up with some BS thing and make you pay for warranty. Their site says nothing of how their relays offer thermal protection. Thermal protection is built into the compressor, not relay. 

_This product is equipped with Automatic Reset Thermal Protection. In the event 
this unit reaches an unsafe operating temperature, thermal protector will cut power 
to prevent damage to the motor, and can automatically restart when temperature returns to a safe operating level. When thermal protector is activated, stop 
operation for at least 30 minutes._

I know Viair comps do not come with a prewired relay. They have built in thermal protection. A relay is a relay. I've yet to see them with built in thermal protection.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Still nothing. No communication. No tracking number. No sh!ts given.

Horrible customer service even if their products are decent. This is completely changing my outlook on Air Zenith compressors and i hate it


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## fasttt600 (Apr 12, 2007)

That sucks man. And I'm in the process of switching to two ob2......


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

MechEngg said:


> Horrible customer service even if their products are decent. This is completely changing my outlook on Air Zenith compressors and i hate it


Never thought I'd hear this out of you. Have you reached out to someone who has been doing business with AZ for a long time (master dealer like UAS)? Sometimes they have excellent advice. Or simply call and ask for Paul and get a little nasty...


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Never thought I'd hear this out of you. Have you reached out to someone who has been doing business with AZ for a long time (master dealer like UAS)? Sometimes they have excellent advice. Or simply call and ask for Paul and get a little nasty...


Elaborate??


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