# frankenturbo F23 and E85 build



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

So I'm getting ready to start a build on the car and I'm trying to figure out the best way to go. My questions are. 1) how much power can I get out of an e85/franken build? I'm sure I'll need things like injectors, rods, pump, tune. And is there any way I'd be able to switch from a gas to e85 tune, depending on what's available?


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

No idea, but there had better be a build threadopcorn:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

There will. But I need to piece everything together first. Like what size injectors, which rods, what clutch, what tune, intake mani, exhaust mani, etc.


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## MKllllvr28 (Sep 15, 2005)

unisettings allows you to save multiple copies of settings on your ecu. example if you have your whatever tune, you would read it with unisettings and save it to your computer. then you make what ever changes for the e85 and save that too. that way when ever you want to switch all you do is flash the car at home and swap injectors. :thumbup:

or get maestro. it does all that and some lol.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I wish there was someone else who has run the combo so I could hear some numbers and driving feedback.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> I wish there was someone else who has run the combo so I could hear some numbers and driving feedback.



Pushing real boost and E85 worthy timing advance, I'd say 350 awhp/425 awtq.
I get my car, on the stock k04 turbo, to reach close to 400 awtq and 300 awhp, although I don't push the car that agressively boost and timing wise every day, it's definitely possible to do when running ethanol. A F23, if tuned right should be able to give you these kind of numbers and be a torque monster. Feel wise, you should get gobs of torque and power early, as long as the flash is not numbing the power down low like I see it advertised on the 1.8t technical forums.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Sounds like a perfect daily for me. I'd like to find an AEB head and a nice intake mani also since I want to get the most out of the set up. I want to avoid the stupid power and the way it thrashes/ages a car. I'd like to keep it a daily, and that sounds like the right amount of power to still be easy to use without constantly breaking ****. It cant lose it's "streetability".


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Subscribedopcorn:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> Pushing real boost and E85 worthy timing advance, I'd say 350 awhp/425 awtq.
> I get my car, on the stock k04 turbo, to reach close to 400 awtq and 300 awhp, although I don't push the car that agressively boost and timing wise every day, it's definitely possible to do when running ethanol. A F23, if tuned right should be able to give you these kind of numbers and be a torque monster. Feel wise, you should get gobs of torque and power early, as long as the flash is not numbing the power down low like I see it advertised on the 1.8t technical forums.


What do you consider to be aggressive boost, 30psi? And I could run more than one tune on a set of monster injectors right?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

On an E85 build I'd say 23psi at boost onset, rising to 25 at boost peak (5500rpm), then tapering down to ~22psi at 7000. If you can afford an AEB head and associated intake manifold, you're looking at 270-280 grams/second airflow.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> On an E85 build I'd say 23psi at boost onset, rising to 25 at boost peak (5500rpm), then tapering down to ~22psi at 7000. If you can afford an AEB head and associated intake manifold, you're looking at 270-280 grams/second airflow.


Hey Doug, anyone running 26-27 psi onset and spiking 33-35 psi on a F23? That's what I was thinking on running on the F23 with E85. I would think your turbo would flow it decently since I run these numbers on the K04, pushing the edge of the flow map.

Also, how did you come up with the mass air numbers?
They seem kind of low, I see higher more grams seconds than that on the k04 with a lower reading s4 maf housing/OEM sensor on stock manifolds and downpipe. BTW I'm still thinking about giving the f23 a try!


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

This thread is starting to get interesting..opcorn:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Hey Doug, anyone running 26-27 psi onset and spiking 33-35 psi on a F23? That's what I was thinking on running on the F23 with E85. I would think your turbo would flow it decently since I run these numbers on the K04, pushing the edge of the flow map.


I'd reckon the F23 can achieve boost request (at onset) by ~3200rpm. This would be a boost level just above the car's MAP sensor range. And the 25-26psi at peak boost would also be exceeding the sensor limit. Are you suggesting yet another ~10psi of boost? 



madmax199 said:


> Also, how did you come up with the mass air numbers?
> They seem kind of low, I see higher more grams seconds than that on the k04 with a lower reading s4 maf housing/OEM sensor on stock manifolds and downpipe. BTW I'm still thinking about giving the f23 a try!


A plain jane K04-02x tops out at somewhere under 225g/s airflow. How are you measuring yours? A TT225 sensor in an S4 housing?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Doug, I don't see the logic behind restricting/limiting the turbo and the car's performance with the factory pressure sensor that was designed for a car seeing 14-15 psi(that's why people upgrade to 3 bar map sensors). With an upgraded turbo I would think that the user would want to take advantage of the higher boost capability or it becomes pointless IMO. The extra 10 psi, over the anemic 25-26 psi you are suggesting, would be more along the line of what your turbo can do.
For over a year, I've been pushing the TT's factory K04 to 30 psi street/33 psi track (I'm able to do it safely with forged rods, water injection to cool down the heated air charge and E85 for knock prevention/higher timing threshold); I would think that a F23 would be more than capable of 35+ psi, if the right supporting mods are in place. 25-26 psi is for K04s, you need at the very least, 30 psi to stretch the legs of the hybrid. Don't take it the wrong way but I think the softwares are limiting what can be achieved with your turbo(weak wastegate duty cycles, conservative timing etc) and that's mostly because they are trying to make power while staying within the OEM parameters and boost limit. 

I stand corrected, as far as the airflow numbers are concerned. After double checking my numbers, at 33 psi, the highest I have recorded is 237 gram/second on high gears. My S4 MAF
housing gives me roughly a 13% cross sectional increase, *237 g/s X 13% = 267.81 g/s* instead of the 275 g/s I originally thought I logged.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Can you post logs of that? At what engine speed and boost level are you netting >260g/s on a plain jane K04-02x? And this is on the stock oem manifold?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Can you post logs of that? At what engine speed and boost level are you netting >260g/s on a plain jane K04-02x? And this is on the stock oem manifold?


I posted the raw log below, so you could see the engine speed since you were asking:beer:. Boost level as mentioned before is a 33 psi peak around 4.5k. 

That log is on my OEM manifold that I massaged internally with a dremel as much as felt comfortable, two 5lbs external springs added to the wastegate actuator rod, two MBC(one for the pressure signal going to the N75, the other tailoring when I let my wastegate see pressure) and finally my modified EVO DV.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Max

Have you ever looked to a K04 2275-series compressor map to see where those airmass figures plot? ~260g/s works out to around 0.23 - 0.24 m^3/sec. That not only puts you off the map, it's practically off the entire chart.










I've been developing the F23 now for close to two years. It's not a passing fancy. And I've never seen any existing K04 hybrid -- let alone a stocker -- make airflows like that. But granted, I've never attempted over 30psi either.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Max
> That not only puts you off the map, it's practically off the entire chart


Lol, Sweeeeeeet! opcorn:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Max
> 
> Have you ever looked to a K04 2275-series compressor map to see where those airmass figures plot? ~260g/s works out to around 0.23 - 0.24 m^3/sec. That not only puts you off the map, it's practically off the entire chart.
> 
> ...


nted, I've never attempted over 30psi either. [/QUOTE]

A little bit of history:
It's an old formula that started with the rally cars and their restrictor plates after the group A cars were banned for being too fast. The turbo cars quickly realized that the only way to make power, breathing through a 38mm mandated plate, is to run the turbo off the map and deal with the associated charge heat with water injection. 

After the rally cars made a science out of it, running 40+ psi on small 16G Mitsubishi turbos with insane timing and antilag all day long . The road racers, like me, followed suit with the DSMs ,WRX and evos.
Max out the turbo, even if you are putting out lava, then mechanically and chemically cool the charge to make use of the psi made.

The drawback is the need for better tuning, supporting mods and a potential reduction in turbo life. To racers, a small price to pay to still make power within the rules.
On my evos the turbos lasted two seasons, running off the chart at around 40 psi. 
On the TT, the K04 is still strong after a full season of abuse at 30+ psi with two drivers sitting on the rev limiter for seconds at every power sections.
I am making almost 400 awtq and 300 awhp at 33 psi (that's over 400 TQ and 300 HP on Ed's dyno that you often use for your testing on Steve's and other cars) so it's well worth it for a track car, even if I the turbo needs refreshing every two years.

I keep telling you, send me that f23 and we can redefine what's possible on a small frame hybrid turbo/ 1.8t combo.


*This is my plain Jane k04 on a low reading DD awd dyno before I tuned it and iron out the spark blowing out at high psi.

*
Uploaded with ImageShack.us


*

Timing at 33 psi*


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Damn! That's impressive! I'd REALLY like to see what the f23 will do on e85 and flowing BETTER than your ko4.. Slappy, I think this would be a great opportunity to do some testing on that little monster. Maybe we can find out what that thing can really do. I'm sure it would be worth the money/time. Some sweet ass curves coming out of that thing would definitely get my money.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Much as I could use the info from this kind of torture-testing....Max, you're freaking me out.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Much as I could use the info from this kind of torture-testing....Max, you're freaking me out.


From a guy with "Let's do this" as his sig, I think your gonna have to

Just sayin..


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Much as I could use the info from this kind of torture-testing....Max, you're freaking me out.


Slappy- Max's car is fast, please make it faster so when I abuse it I can  even bigger

OP- after a friend and I took Max's car for a spin my friend Greg turned to me and said "this is what you should have done". When my car is working (which it hasn't for awhile) I deal with no power until 4.5k+ after that number it fly's but things also break. I would say E85, F23, & IE drop in rods would be the way to go for a nice street car.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> Much as I could use the info from this kind of torture-testing....Max, you're freaking me out.


Torture testing :laugh::laugh::laugh: I like that!
Isn't it what manufacturers do with their new technology? Give it to the race guys to torture test/improve at the track and then use it in production cars(even if the race guys freaks them out).

Regardless of having you on board, testing, sharing the data and results, I will at some point give your f23 a shot. It's up to you to use the oportunity to have someone doing some real testing on your great product (you are not the only one, I have ground breaking suspension parts on my car right now waiting for my thumb up to hit the market) :beer:


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## bklnstunt718 (May 30, 2007)

id love to see some quarter mile times


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

bklnstunt718 said:


> id love to see some quarter mile times


Not my cup of tea! I don't find going through my gears from a hole fun or exciting, I need a few steering inputs per seconds to keep my adrenaline pumping . I'm also curious to know how my car would do, maybe Doug can take it for a pass at Waterfest if the schedule allows it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Doug, I don't see the logic behind restricting/limiting the turbo and the car's performance with the factory pressure sensor that was designed for a car seeing 14-15 psi(that's why people upgrade to 3 bar map sensors).


What is the best method for recording above the 2540mbar limit? Is it a simple sensor swap? Or is the ecu itself capped at this reading?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> What is the best method for recording above the 2540mbar limit? Is it a simple sensor swap? Or is the ecu itself capped at this reading?


Recording only can be done by adapting a 3 bar map sensor to replace the OEM 2.5 bar sensor. 

I don't know if there's a "best method" besides a flash to get the ecu to have boost request, past the set limit. However, there are a few tricks to go past the OEM 1.5 bar limit.
The OEM pressure sensor (not a MAP because it's pre manifold) is a 2.5 bar sensor that reads 0-5v, that's only 1.5 bar or 21 lbs over atmospheric pressure.

The popular method is to clamp the sensor at 4.3v or 4.7v with a zener diode. That way, the ecu never see boost pressure above it's 5v limit and doesn't freak out if boost is increased and the limit exceeded.
http://s90139951.onlinehome.us/vw/diodemod.htm

What I did for my car, that see some harsher conditions at the track, is delete the N249 completely.
I rely on two home made ball and spring boost controllers to tailor the pressure signal going to the functional N75 and to the wastegate actuator. That way, I can tailor when and how the n75 and wastegate actuator see pressure. The result is total and independent control on my boost onset and spike, regardless of what the ECU is reading and/or requesting. It may sound complicated but it's a simple mechanical "take over" of boost control.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm purely interested in having the ecu reporting above 2540mbar. But if the ecu sees 5.0v as a "soaked" sensor and assigns 2540mbar to that, I don't see how it's possible to have it report, say, 2650mbar.

The S4 guys can do this somehow using a Zeitronix sensor. Their logging software will report pressures well above that 2540 limit.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> I'm purely interested in having the ecu reporting above 2540mbar. But if the ecu sees 5.0v as a "soaked" sensor and assigns 2540mbar to that, I don't see how it's possible to have it report, say, 2650mbar.
> 
> The S4 guys can do this somehow using a Zeitronix sensor. Their logging software will report pressures well above that 2540 limit.


I'm interested to see how the S4 guys do that, do you have a link?

Normally I didn't think you could get the ecu to read higher boost than the preset range. You could put a higher reading sensor but the boost values read by the ECU would be off by some scaled factor. Calculated loads would be off too (that's why I didn't clamp my pressure sensor) as well as any ECU maps that uses boost reference in one of the axis. What I would think is possible, with a sofware allowing modification to the tables, is to use a higher reading sensor and rescale to account for the factor that the new sensor would be off by.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Well, it's almost here. Bosch E14 750cc injectors and Bosch 044 pump, are sitting in the garage waiting to go in. I'm working with Gonzo to make a good F23 (stageIII) tune for me, as well as an E85 file. The best part being switchable files at the pump. I will be updating this thread as things progress. 

(Turns out my WG actuator is leaking)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

opcorn: for the numbers you will achieve on E85. I am convinced that once you're dialed with E85, you'll never want to go back to regular pump. It's that drastic of a change if optimized with the appropriate timing and boost curves.




madmax199 said:


>


Ouch! This timing curve was so weak and unrefined, it's embarrassing (that Madmax guy was an amateur at making power on a 1.8t)


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> opcorn: for the numbers you will achieve on E85. I am convinced that once you're dialed with E85, you'll never want to go back to regular pump. It's that drastic of a change if optimized with the appropriate timing and boost curves.
> Ouch! This timing curve was so weak and unrefined, it's embarrassing (that Madmax guy was an amateur at making power on a 1.8t)


I'll be joining the corn fed crew soon enoughopcorn::beer:


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## toy4two2 (Feb 6, 2012)

subscribing. They just put in a E85 pump down the street. Finally a California do-able build thread!


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

toy4two2 said:


> subscribing. They just put in a E85 pump down the street. Finally a California do-able build thread!


Yeah man, I've seen a few pop up in my area lately. Can't wait to pull up empty at a gas station, and have the ability to decide what I want to fill up with.


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