# 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ?



## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

Is it possible to make 400WHP of a T3/T4 Turbo vr6? Any size trim can be posted in the reply?


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (benzivr6)*

absolutely ... a T3/T40B 60-1 would do it


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (ExtremeVR6)*

Wouldn't it be better to go straight T4?


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## garyw (Oct 17, 1999)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_absolutely ... a T3/T40B 60-1 would do it

at around how many psi?


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## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (garyw)*

~18ish should to the trick


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (garyw)*

Here's the compressor map for a 60-1 ... 








well let's do some quick math ... 
theoretical air flow rate = cubic inch displacement times rpm time .6 times volumectric efficientcy all devided by 1728. 
or ... TAFR = (cid * rpm * .5 * VE)/1728
Boosted air flow rate is TAFR * Pressure Ratio (or PR) 
and finally Pressure Ratio is (boost + 14.7)/14.7 
let's push some numbers ... 
(170 * 5800 *.5 *.88 )/1728 (I use 88% it's what I've found my engine gets after some dyno tests .... and then I used 5800 for the peak hp point, cause that's where it's at normally, it would most likely be different, but this is to give us a basic idea of the boost that is needed.) 
solved that equation up there and we get ... 251.06 cfm (*.069 gives us lb/min) 17.32 lbs/min which is about 173hp at the crank ... now to do some backwards math and figure out what PR is needed.
for 400 whp you'll need about 460 crank hp ... which under some crude calculations is about 46 lb/min ... which is 666.66 cfm ... so id BAFR= TAFR * PR ... solve for PR and you get BAFR / TAFR = PR so ... 666.66/251.06 = Pr
PR = 2.66 
PR = (boost + 14.7)/14.7 so ... solve for boost and you get ... 
(Pr * 14.7)-14.7=boost ... (2.66*14.7)-14.7= *24.33 psi* ... now mind you this is some very crude math .... and alot of assumptions have been made ... but 
you're going to need at least 20 psi to maybe 25 psi to get your 400whp from that turbo ... anyone please correct me if I'm mistaken!


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## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (ExtremeVR6)*

hmm i've seen guys put down 350whp @ 15psi
i've also seen guys put down 400+whp @ 18psi, maybe i been smokin 2 much cronz? i dunno


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (skillton)*

i'm hoping for the 320-340WHP range w/ my T3/T04E @ 14psi.... but then again, running 8.5:1 CR i'll probably get boost happy and crank it up a bit






























btw, nice calculations


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (Anand20v)*

You will get around 325 ish whp at 15 psi from a t3t4 depending on the specifics of the turbo. My guess it it would take 24+ lbs to make 400whp with that little turbo. 400 is also a big goal, shoot for 350 first and keeping the car together, also you may want to consider a bigger turbo if that is the power you want, a t3t4 will be blowing a lot of hot air at those boost levels. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (skillton)*

I realized after doing that math that it had nothing to do with the size of the turbo ... there just wasn't any consideration taken for the turbo ... the math is all theoretical... without ANYTHING else done to the engine... and I mean nothing ... those calculations are somewhat correct ... however we all know that you're going to put an intake on there, and you're going to increase the exhaust diameter, and you're going to maybe get some FI cam's (or are going to need to to get 400whp) or you're going to change the compression ratio... point is anything you do to the engine is going to decrease the amount of pressurization that's going to happen.
An illustration of volumetric efficentcy ... consider a 1 inch diameter tube with a plug on one end ... you attach an air compressor to it and push in 25 pounds of air (mind you there is no concrete math or computation to this illustration ... so engineers bugger off when you try to compute the actual compression ) ... let's say you've pressurized the air to 25 pounds per square inch or 25pounds/1inch ... or 25 psi ... you could say that the tube is under "boost" or the air in the air path is pressurized... now let's make that tube 5 inches in diameter... you push the same 25 pounds into it ... so you've got 25 pounds of air per 5 inches ... 25 pounds/5 inches or 5/1 or 5 psi ... there is the same amount of air, but because of the difference in size less compression of necessary to fit that air into the tube.
Now ... real life application ... you've got an engine that flows 17.36 lbs/min ... and it's VE is approx 88% ... this kinda means that it can flow 88% of the air that an ideal "tube" of the same size could flow... so you get some 256 FI cams (these increase the amount of time that air can flow into the engine)... you get a big valve head (it's obvious but ... you get larger valves allowing more air to flow in... you get a freer flowing cold air intake, and a 3 inch exhaust, and you port the manifolds (ie you make the intake and exhaust holes a bit bigger and smoother), and you get it polished (which allows the air to flow with more ease)... with each of these things you increase your volumetric effientcy... now keep in mind that what the VE is based on is how much air the engine actually flows compared to how much it should flow based on it's displacement and rpms... as you allow the engine to breath better you increase the Volumetric Efficientcy ... in short what it means is ... you've got a larger tube to push air thru ... instead of that tube that could flow 17.36 lbs/min at it's max ... now it can flow 22.64 lbs/min with a VE of 115% ... 
and being able to flow more air means, less compression of the air is necessary ... so less pressure is built up ... and except for power all the others go down ... like heat and psi ... That's why you've seen cars pushing 400whp at 18psi ... I've seen 450 @ 15psi ... they were using a giagantic turbo ... 
sorry I didn't explain better ... but I probably wouldn't have been able to do that at 5am this morning.


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## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

i seen a vr6 with 450 whp at 16psi
he run's sds


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: (DISTURBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DISTURBO* »_i seen a vr6 with 450 whp at 16psi
he run's sds

Highly doubt that, what turbo was this car running.


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## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: (nycvr6)*

theres a post in the mk2 forums, an mk2 3.0 vr6t running 18psi putting out 566.8hp


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (nycvr6)*

My car dynoed 409whp on 18psi and 100 octane....


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: (nycvr6)*

T70
Chris


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: (Chris_P)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chris_P* »_T70
Chris

Must have been running some serious timing to make that power at that boost with a T70. Is that motor still around?


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_absolutely ... a T3/T40B 60-1 would do it

Intresting combination, would this be running on (assuming Turbonetics) a stage 4 T3 exhaust housing ?
Does anyone have the dimensions for the stage 4 housing....i have information on the stage 3 setup, but not on the stage 4.
Thanks
Keith


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (keith_r2)*

Keith, the turbine stage doesn't change the outside dimensions of the turbine housing at all. Staging the turbine just changes the turbine wheel and the interior housing machining to match the wheel. Turbine hsg external size is only governed by base size (T3, 4, etc) and A/R.


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (need_a_VR6)*

Sorry i done my classic "i know what i meant to ask but didnt word it correctly".
I know that the outer dimensions dont change as you go up the stages, what i meant to ask was for the dimensions on the turbine wheel, and the size of the exit from the housing !
Thanks
Keith


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## draculia (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (benzivr6)*

god i hope you guys can pull better numbers than that. i've seen numerous 400+ awhp dynos from 50 trims on dsms running pump gas.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (keith_r2)*

Oh, makes total sense, guess I read you wrong







This what you want?
Turbonetics T3 Stage III exducer dia 2.229 major dia 2.559 
Stock T3 *********************** 1.918 ******** 2.319


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (need_a_VR6)*

Thats the sort of dimensions that I am after, but does anyone know these dimensions for the stage 4 trim?
Thanks
Keith


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (keith_r2)*

Stage **** exducer **** major
I ******* 1.918******* 2.319
II******* 2.122******* 2.559
III****** 2.229******* 2.559
V******* 2.439******* 2.798
Turbonetics doesn't list a stage IV.


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: (nycvr6)*

50/50 mix of 94 octane and c16.
Car is on the street, still in one piece.
Chris


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Stage **** exducer **** major
I ******* 1.918******* 2.319
II******* 2.122******* 2.559
III****** 2.229******* 2.559
V******* 2.439******* 2.798
Turbonetics doesn't list a stage IV.

Thanks for the info.

Are there any T3/T4 VR6 turbo owners on here ? Just wondered about HP figures they are generating and what wheels they are running etc.
Keith


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## vr6turbin (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (benzivr6)*

I will say go on the T04E 60/62-1 with 69 A/R in the turbine housing
it will give u your goal....


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## bretter (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (vr6turbin)*

i run a t3/t04E w/ a stage 5 wheel and .82 a/r.
what do you guys think i'll make at 16 psi???
should i switch to a bigger turbo if i want 350 whp?


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: 400whp/ T3T4 VR6 ? (bretter)*

I think that's big enough.


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