# Hawk Performance Ceramic Pads : warning



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I completed an HPDE yesterday in my Mk1 Audi TT Quattro. This car has 996 4 piston calipers on stock 12.3" discs with Hawk HPS pads and SS lines up front, and 9" non vented discs in the rear. I installed the HPS's up front about a month ago, and installed Hawk Ceramic pads in the rear 2 days on Thursday, left for the HPDE (which was on a Monday) on Saturday since I was staying out of town, bled the brakes with Motul RBF600 on Sunday and did a short test drive, then headed to the event on Monday (~85 miles from where I was staying to the track). I bedded them in using Hawk's recommendations plus a few extra stops, then took it easy on them until I got to the track (normal driving). After the first 15 min session the pads were coated in a white dust, obviously the ceramic, but it seemed like it was almost out-gassing the dust. It was all over all edges of the pad and the backing plate, almost like it was coming THROUGH the plate. Obviously the fronts do most of the work, but these pads turned the wimpy 9" saucer discs into something that resembled vinyl pressings, as they were horribly grooved with just that little use. I was learning the track and working on lines, not aggressive braking at that point. I had a half set of Mintex Red Box's that these replaced, but didn't want to swap back to only have to swap again and possibly eat up track time, as well as waste time in the pits while rain threatened all day (no covered parking). I'll post up pictures tonight when I rotate my wheels. The reviews I read online before hand were pretty split/mixed, but for true performance, these just suck and I'm assuming they are more targeted at quiet operation and low dust with little concern for handling heat/fade. They should NOT have the word "performance" in their name. :thumbdown:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)




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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

HPS is High Performance *Street* pad :thumbup: Plus, ceramic is really for anti-dust properties and they last longer. Your TT is pretty heavy so I am not surprised that's how it worked out. Thanks for your review though, it will hopefully benefit folks


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

They also have "Luxury and Touring" in the headline description, in addition to being under the "street" category. What the hell were you smoking when you thought that street pads would be a good idea on track? They are, in fact, superb street pads. On a mk4 chassis car - even carbotech XP12's are almost not enough pad... I know this because I eat a set every time do a track weekend. 

As far as the white flake on the pad plate, that would be the paint cooking off of them. They do that. I'm comfortable saying that those pads performed admirably for what you put them through when taking into account what they were designed for. 

With hawks, I'd recommend nothing less than 9012's (blues) if you're on street tires, and better than that if you're on r-comps.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Any time I've run this track before has been in a 1.8T FWD Mk4 GTI. Obviously the front brakes are doing most of the work, in either GTI or TT. On the GTI, I ran HP+ in the front with OEM pads in the rear, and the rear pads gave out after the first day. I installed some Duralast crap to get through the second day (track is in a remote rural area, it was all I could find), and was fine. The next time I ran here in the GTI, same HP+'s in the front with Mintex Red Box in the rear (went through two sets in two days). Obviously none of OEM, Duralast, or Red Box pads are "race" pads, and none of them did damage to the rotors like the Hawk Ceramics did. That's why I thought I'd be okay for one day with the Ceramics, as I installed them right before the event. 

I don't know the OEM bias ratios, but with 12.3" fronts in the TT compared to the 11.3" fronts of the GTI, with both using 9" solid non vented rear rotors, the bias would be shifted towards the front on the TT if the proportioning valve is the same between the two. Again, another reason I thought I'd be okay. 

Either way, it's a lesson learned, and I already have calipers to go to the 10" rear vented discs on my TT, which I ordered yesterday. The discs were ~$60 so it's not like it was an expensive fix. I just didn't expect the damage to the rotors that the Ceramics caused. I thought they would make it through one day, and they did (still have half pad life left), but they didn't play nicely with the rotors, which is why I posted.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

I'm not sure why ppl use ceramics.. my advice is stop using ceramics, metallic pads, they may eat your rotors, but they surely will stop your car on the track lol


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Heh, most tracks are in the middle of nowhere. Nothing new there. In any case, I suppose - when you push a ceramic pad like that beyond it's temperature range, you're cooking all but the ceramic components. Obviously, the pad is not a solid block of ceramic, there's other materials in it, which are probably burning off, and the ceramic is left to eat the rotor. Hence the grooves.

The TT didn't have vented rears already? That seems... strange to me. Oh well. By the way - the calipers are different for vented/solid. While the fronts do most of the work, the rear bias is fairly high. Instead of tweaking stuff, start with even stuff. Same pads in front and back. THEN start making changes and mixing pads. I don't know how long you've been doing HPDE's, but I'm sure somebody's told you before - it's not the car. (unless you're breaking the car... in which case it still may not be the car) We all know this, but we don't always listen to it. If you're on street tires - just run even - HP+ front and back. If you feel like the back is going to come around on you every time you dive into a turn, then do something about it. Or, take advantage of the extra rear bias to get the rear to come around some while trail braking. The mk4 chassis doesn't turn as it is, don't make it worse.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

KG18t said:


> The TT didn't have vented rears already? That seems... strange to me. Oh well. By the way - the calipers are different for vented/solid. While the fronts do most of the work, the rear bias is fairly high. Instead of tweaking stuff, start with even stuff. Same pads in front and back. THEN start making changes and mixing pads. I don't know how long you've been doing HPDE's, but I'm sure somebody's told you before - it's not the car. (unless you're breaking the car... in which case it still may not be the car) We all know this, but we don't always listen to it. If you're on street tires - just run even - HP+ front and back. If you feel like the back is going to come around on you every time you dive into a turn, then do something about it. Or, take advantage of the extra rear bias to get the rear to come around some while trail braking. The mk4 chassis doesn't turn as it is, don't make it worse.


180Q TT's come with the same non vented 9" rotors as Mk4 GTI's. 225 TT's have the 10" vented setup like R32/337/20thAE/GLI's. I'm aware the calipers are different due to the thickness of the rotors, and I have the correct calipers for the swap (That'll be the last piece of turning my 5 speed K03 powered AWP TTQ into a six speed, larger rear brakes, K04 powered 225 :laugh. I haven't run HPDE's very often in the past few years, but will be getting back into it and doing a few a year going forward. I'm going to purchase a dedicated set of track pads and discs for front and rear to eliminate this type of issue. :beer:


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## c0r3y.af (Oct 8, 2009)

Should've gone EBC 

OP, what track were you on? Just curious. I've been wanting to do some HPDEs myself. Good luck with the new brake setup.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

c0r3y.af said:


> Should've gone EBC
> 
> OP, what track were you on? Just curious. I've been wanting to do some HPDEs myself. Good luck with the new brake setup.


Super late reply. The track I was on is www.tgprace.com


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## IJM (Jul 30, 2001)

KG18t said:


> As far as the white flake on the pad plate, that would be the paint cooking off of them. They do that. I'm comfortable saying that those pads performed admirably for what you put them through when taking into account what they were designed for.


This. FWIW, I run Hawk HT-10 front and HP+ rear for my track setup in the GTI on r-comps. Blue front/HPS rear work OK with street tires, but the HT-10 compound is much better than the old blue compound. I did the front and rear TT setup on my car (12.3 front/10.2 vented rear) and it helps a lot with keeping the pad temps down, especially in the rear.

Another thing to consider is that'll you'll be putting more heat into the brakes as you get more experienced, so what may have worked our your first or second track day will quickly become overwhelmed one you have 10 or more days under your belt.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

IJM said:


> This. FWIW, I run Hawk HT-10 front and HP+ rear for my track setup in the GTI on r-comps. Blue front/HPS rear work OK with street tires, but the HT-10 compound is much better than the old blue compound. I did the front and rear TT setup on my car (12.3 front/10.2 vented rear) and it helps a lot with keeping the pad temps down, especially in the rear.
> 
> Another thing to consider is that'll you'll be putting more heat into the brakes as you get more experienced, so what may have worked our your first or second track day will quickly become overwhelmed one you have 10 or more days under your belt.


I'm installing the 10.2" rear vented discs this week. I hope to hit this track again around September so we'll see how this helps.


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

Ebc pads are total garbage. Made in the uk no wonder.


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