# Looking at possibly buying a Routan and have questions



## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

Hey, my family is starting to grow and our 2 jettas wont cut it anymore. So my wife and I are looking at the Routans. There are 2 in my area right now that are catching my eye. One is at a VW dealer and is a 2012 SE W/RSE and navi 11k miles for $22,977. The other is a private seller with a 2012 SEL W/RSE and navi 18k miles for $23,900. My first question would be what are the differences between the SE and SEL? I do know that the SELs come with leather and power seats and sunroof, but is there anything else they have that and SE doesn't? Is it worth the extra money to get an SEL or can I add some of the extra features myself? If I were to put offers on these 2 vans, what do you think I should try to get them for and what do you think is the better van? Another question I have is with the navi unit. Is this a VW or Chrysler unit and is it a good one? Lastly, besides upgrading the brakes, is there anything else I should be aware of if I buy a Routan? And what type of mods can be done to the Routan? Thanks for any advise you can give.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

Congrats on the growing family. A few random thoughts:

The Navi units are Garmin based beginning with 2011 MY. Big improvement to the prior generation that were Chryco proprietary. So that's a tie if both the SE and SEL have the same head unit. Do they both have Sirius too?

The SE has leatherette while the SEL is leather. The leatherette actually has some advantages in durability and (lack of) required upkeep, but folks seem to prefer the leather.

Not a definite difference, so you'll have to check it out with the sellers for actual options included, but the SE is more likely to have a single RSE screen while the SEL is more likely to have the add'l screen for the 3rd row. Might not be a big deal if you have newborn/toddlers, but there are advantages to the extra screen as they get older. Hard to put a price on the kids screaming about Toy Story vs. Lion King on a long road-trip, so nice to have the option to watch both at the same time. The headphones and remote control are dual-channel, and there are 2 DVD players with the 3rd row version, which means each row can watch different movies all while mommy & daddy listen to the radio/CD/HDD/Sirius head unit through the speakers. This can be retrofitted to the SE if it doesn't have both screens from the factory, but you've just eaten up any differences on the purchase price to do that.

The SEL comes with the tow-prep package, which is basically self-leveling rear shocks and supposedly adds HD engine oil cooler, HD transmission oil cooler, and HD engine cooling. But word is the SE also has the HD cooling anyway, so really just the self-leveling rear shocks that are different. Monroe sells after-market self-leveling shocks that can be installed for a couple hundred bucks, so not a huge deal, but again that's eating into the cost difference on the purchase price. If either already has the OEM hitch installed, however, then that changes the equation.

The SEL will give you some other options like power 3rd row seats and lift-gate, potentially a roof-rack that the SE might not have, automatic climate control which is a nice feature but not necessary, heated front and mid-row seats, adjustable driver pedals, sunroof, and some other items. 

For 5% price difference, it'd probably be worth the extra $1000 to me to get the SEL, especially if financing the purchase anyway, but I'd just use the SE as negotiating leverage to get the SEL seller to come down on the price..... all other things being equal between the two.

The upgraded OEM brakes began happening mid-cycle during the 2012 MY, so I'd look to see if the front brakes have the larger rotors and calipers. There are some pictures here in the brake threads to see the difference. That would be a huge factor in my decision, actually, if one had the upgraded brakes but the other didn't.

Last thought is I would compare prices to a 2012 or 2013 Dodge Grand Caravan with the R/T trim-line. I have no clue how the Dodge R/T retains resale value compared to the Routan. The R/T was first to get the upgraded brakes, should come with the tow-prep package from the factory, and you might find all the options and possibly a lower price being a Dodge. Beginning with 2013 MY (when Routan was discontinued), the Dodge/Chrysler began getting the stiffer "Routan" suspension (particularly the R/T), so that's a wash. The Chryco/Dodge also got upgraded RSE with blu-ray and HDMI beginning in 2013, over the standard def and RCA jacks from the prior version found on 2012 and earlier (i.e., all Routans). I also personally think the R/T line looks good too in black or the dark gray. And you can get it with Stow & Go seats, which costs close to $500 to retrofit into a Routan. An additional year under the belt with the Pentastar motor can't hurt either (introduced in 2011 MY with some initial teething problems). "Dodge" repairs and maintenance might be cheaper than "VW" prices, despite being same vehicle, Dodge dealerships know the vehicle better than VW dealerships, and it's more likely that parts will be easier to find on the Dodge in the more distant future compared to a discontinued, briefly-offered cross-badged Chryco Volkswagen that didn't sell all too well with the VW badge.


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## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

Thanks. It's going to be a big change with two. 

We just test drove the SE today and it's nice. It has Sirius, a roof rack, power lift gate, and stow n go seats. I was told it was a VWoA fleet car. The dealer has had it for sale since March. I found another SE with same features plus a sunroof an 19k more miles for $19500. If I can get them to come Down to 20k I think I might get it. It Also looks like it has big brakes on the front. Anything else I should look at or do before committing on this routan?


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## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

Another question I have is what about repairs on the Routan and the future of VW dealers working on them now that it is no longer sold? Could the repair costs start to get more expensive then a honda or toyota?


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## cscsc (Jun 14, 2009)

Repairs shouldn't be a problem, as the Routan is, after all, a Chrysler in Wolfsburg Clothing. Parts will be available for ten years, or more in the case of mechanical parts.

I recommend finding a good independent mechanic with experience repairing Chrysler products for repairs not covered by the warranty. The good news is it's really a simple, mostly reliable good old American car. Body and interior parts unique to the Routan may be a bit more expensive, but the common mechanical parts are all readily available from a Chrysler dealer or in the aftermarket. Just do the preventive maintenance and keep an eye out for trouble and the Routan will provide very good service. We love our SEL.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

Chrysler didn't license stow 'n go to VW, so your VW won't have that particularly if a VW fleet car. The stow 'n go can be retrofitted if you find similar interior color from one of the handicap conversion van places. It's about $500 though.

Are the RSE on the SE models 2 screen or 3 screen? (they count the head unit as 1 screen, then middle row screen, and 3rd row screen). The 3 screen version, I think, is worth it if you are planning to keep it for 5 years or longer where the kids are hitting that age 3 or 4 and start bickering over everything with sibling. Just my $0.02. Also, being able to speak with the previous owner to get an idea of how they treated/serviced the vehicle is an added bonus compared to used car lots/dealerships.

I'd still give a shot to the private seller of the SEL. Tell them you have 2 or 3 others with similar mileage/condition/options on an SE trim level that are selling for $20k, and that's your price cap. Tell 'em you're not trying to low-ball, you realize SEL is a higher trim-line, but if they want to sell for $20k you're game otherwise you'll just take the SE. No harm no foul whatever the response is.


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## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

It has 2 screens and 3 overhead storage things. For the stow n go seats is that for the middle row only or both? I do know the rear seats go down and the is a opening in front of the middle row just figured they were stow n go. I'll have double check that. I have started looking at others and found an 06 sienna xle limited for $16k with everything but awd.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

On the VW, the space below the floor in front of the middle row is just storage. The seats don't go down into that space as they do on the Chryco "Stow n Go" seating system. The VW seats lean forward on the main floor and roll over up next to the back of the front seats, or you can pop them out and remove them altogether. But they don't fold away into the false floor space. The flip-side is the VW captain chair seats are a bit more comfortable than the stow n' go b/c the VW seats have some extra cushioning that the stow-n-go had to leave out to allow them to fold away. It's a trade-off, but I've had a handful of occasions where I wish I could've folded the middle seats down and away to have more cargo space without having to remove the seats. And seating comfort is less of an issue b/c kids will be in carseats and booster seats until they are 6 or 7 years old, and even afterward it's their arses and not mine. Overall a minor issue though.

The '06 Sienna is a very good vehicle. Last year of the bullet-proof Toyota engines in the Sienna. The Sienna was re-designed with the 07 MY and wasn't quite as trouble-free as the '06 and earlier. The flip-side is the '07 and later, as well as the '08 and later 5th gen Chryco minivans (and Routans), are quite a bit larger than the prior generation. On the '06 Sienna, much like the 4th generation Chryco, the third row seat takes up the rear-most cargo space. Right up against the rear hatch, with no storage space behind it. When the larger stretched "maxi" vans started coming out around '07 and '08, they added a couple feet of storage space behind the 3rd row seats. 

I have no experience with it, but from what i've read the AWD Sienna is more trouble than it's worth. Higher fuel consumption, and AWD tends to have higher repair costs too. You didn't put where you live in your profile, but unless you live in Alaska, Canada or the Rockies, there's probably no sense in having the AWD version.

You're on the right track though. If you can't afford a newish Odyssey or Sienna, then the Chryco & Routans are a good alternative for similar model year with similar options at much lower cost. Otherwise, go with a pre-07 Sienna or pre-05 Odyssey. 

Don't forget the Quest either, if you can live with the distinct looks of it. The current generation was refreshed midway through and much needed improvements on the interior. When the current version first came out, the interior looked a little too much like it was going after the space-ship look, but that went away with the interior refresh. My main concern with the Quest when we were in the market was the CVT (continuous variable transmission) that was offered on it. I don't know if that was an option and a traditional automatic was also offered, or if CVT was the only 'option', but CVTs are extremely costly if you every have a transmission problem. If it goes out at 100k miles outside of warranty, you've basically totaled your vehicle b/c a new/reman CVT transmission will cost more than the vehicle is worth. They are crazy expensive.


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## CDJackson (Feb 28, 2013)

Just a few thoughts to add from our experience after 20,000 miles in a 2012 SE w/ RSE & Nav (which, like one of the vehicles you're considering, was a Volkswagen fleet vehicle) ...

On the SE versus SEL, we purposely did NOT want an SEL model for several reasons:
- The sunroof of the SEL subtracts a significant amount of headroom. (I'm 6'3" so that was an issue for me.)
- The sunroof will eventually break and/or leak
- The power third row seats will eventually break. When they do, you won't be able to raise/lower the seats without an expensive fix (there's no manual way to raise/lower them--at least not that I could find).
- The leather in the SEL is very nice but less durable than the fake leather in the SE. With kids, you want the seat material to be as plastic-like as possible!
- Two DVD screens in the back was not a must-have for us, and certainly not worth the extra money that the SEL cost. You can always give one or more of your kids a portable DVD player or other device if they don't want to watch whatever movie is playing. Or better yet, just tell them to read a book or do something else!
- The SEL is heavier, which has a negative impact on fuel economy (though this is probably relatively marginal).
- Fog lights look good but are functionally not that important.
- Auto headlights are nice but, again, unnecessary. I can figure out when I need to turn on my lights.
- Same deal with the auto climate control. I can turn a dial "warmer" or "cooler" when I need to.
- Memory seating settings on the SEL are nice, but, again, ultimately not worth the extra money to us.
- We thought heated second-row seats on the SEL were worse than useless--we did not want our kids playing around with the seat warmers. 
- About the only thing we really preferred on the SEL was the deluxe center console (the one that comes in the SE just looks so cheap and out-of-place in what is otherwise a pretty upscale interior). So I replaced the center console myself following the instructions available on this forum with an SEL console I bought (new) off of eBay. Viola! Our SE now has the SEL console. You can add some of the other SEL options too (like the fog lights) if you really care too.

On the Navigation System:
- This is the first car I've owned with Nav and, on the whole, I've been disappointed. Not sure how it compares with other vehicles, but no one (not even your front seat passenger) can enter a destination while driving, and you have to go through a laborious, multi-step process to input a destination (state, city, street, number, all as separate steps). You can't use fingure gestures to zoom in and out on the map like you can on a phone or tablet. This is probably more of a crtique of car-based nav systems in general rather than the Routan in particular, but the whole interface just seems so dated compared to what's available on even the cheapest smartphone nowadays.
- More distressingly, after we bought our 2012 Routan, we found that the maps were woefully outdated. There were whole freeways that had been open for more than two years that did not exist in the Routan's mapping software. I fought with the dealer and eventually got a complimentary software update (which ordinarily costs $199) to bring the maps up to date. If you care about having up-to-date maps, make the dealer promise to give you a one-time free update as part of the purchase contract. You'd think this would be part of the 347-point CPO inspection, but it's not.

On the brakes:
- I would not buy any Routan that did not have the much larger, upgraded brakes that came on the 2012 models. In contrast to everyone else on this forum with the older model Routans, we've had ZERO brake issues in our 2012 SE so far. Granted, we've only got 25,000 miles on it, but the brakes have not shown even a hint of problems, and a lot of folks with the older models were experiencing issues with the brakes at lower mileage than we have.

Last thing to consider--I'm assuming that the SE model at the VW dealer is a CPO vehicle? If so, I would strongly consider buying that over the private-seller SEL. The CPO gives you an extended manufacturer's warranty that the private-seller vehicle will not have.

Best of luck!


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

^^^^ those are all very good points. The difference between the SE and SEL is even less now that they share the same engine. When we were looking to purchase (2009-10), I really wanted the 4.0L over the 3.8L and felt like in some ways I was "settling" for some of the options I really didn't want, such as the power 3rd row and leather over leatherette. When VW dealerships were making ridiculous discounts on the Routan shortly before VWoA made the announcement that they were not picking up 2013s, we even considered trading up to the 2012 and were looking at an SE.

If price was equal or very close (i.e. <$1k difference), then I'd still opt for the SEL. Some of the other SEL options are indeed nice to have, but as CDJ pointed out not at all necessary (e.g., climate controls, adjustable driver's pedals, etc.). Those are a nice bonus, and I really do like the tow-prep package rear suspension, middle console, and the 3rd row RSE screen with double DVD players. Those are the main items, but can all be retrofitted to an SE. The only other thing is the SEL should have marginally better resale value when the time comes, so why not if you can buy-in at the same price?

As far as the navi, i prefer not having it but if it's already there then obviously wouldn't pay more to have it removed for a non-navi unit. The updates are available for free if you search some of the Dodge & Jeep forums with your radio code on the bottom-right of the head-unit. Very good DIY instructions, and you just d/l the files and burn to disc and the instructions for updating the head unit are pretty straight-forward, including the risk hazards. I don't think I would really bother though for the reasons mentioned (unable to use in motion, bad maps, inaccuracy, user-unfriendly), especially if I could bluetooth my android through the radio system. The google maps navigator on my phone is better anyway.

All good....


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## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

I will be buying a Neptune blue metallic 11 SEL on Sunday. Looking forward to getting this van. I'll post pics after I get it.


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## Halebone (Jul 15, 2014)

*Pay attention to the brakes.*

For what it is worth ... I have a 2010 Routan SE which has been great except for the brakes. I have a 4yo boy and a 7yo girl and have found the entertainment system to be worth its weight in gold. The fuel economy is decent for a mini van and it is comfortable (I am 6' 5") Anyone who has been digging around on this forum can see that I am not alone with the break issue. I bought the car new and the brakes it came with (rear) lasted 17,000 mi. I don't THINK I am any harder on brakes than average, but, who knows. VWoA agreed to pay for half ($202) - That set lasted 6,000 mi. The dealership covered this second set citing a parts warranty. After 10 months and only 7,751 miles later they are gone again. This time the dealership contacted VWoA and I was offered the fifty/fifty deal again. The service adviser told me that the parts warranty no longer applies to parts that were not paid for by the customer. When I started to escalate a bit he suggested I plead my case directly with VWoA. I spoke with a very nice young woman named Brittany who listened sympathetically and apologized for the problems I have been having, but, informed me that my case had been bumped up as high as it could go and they are standing by their offer - end of story. The fronts which have been a little "pulsey" since the first go 'round need to be done for a grand total of $1,800. (minus VWoA's $600 contri) There are only 33,000 miles total currently on the Baby Maker. I think there is a set of aftermarket brakes in my future, but, regrettably after a string of seven, not another VW. : ( (suggestions please! money is definitely a concern)


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

I'd pass on VWoA's offer. They are over twice the cost for crappy OEM parts than the cost of an indie putting good aftermarket brakes on.

If you can find an indie that will let you bring your own parts (usually they will install but not warrant them), then check out the various brake threads here to get a gameplan on after-market. You have brakeperformance.com option (the dimpled/slotted are loud, but best warranty, the cheaper cross-drilled/slotted are quieter and seem as durable but a bit less warranty). Another poster here has had good luck with the Bosch rotors. On the Chrysler minivans forums, there are some Chrysler techs that recommend Raybestos Advance Technology. I've used them on the rears with good luck, and I think if you search you can find them for the fronts (e.g., RockAuto.com?).

The key is a heavy duty rotor for towing or high performance rotor (e.g., slotted/drilled/dimpled) to dissipate heat. And I think ceramic pads make a lot of sense if they are cooler than semi-metallic (and no brake dust as a bonus).


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

Also, if you're considering going with a name brand instead of online only (brakeperformance.com), give the independent a shot at sourcing the parts. They can often be very competitive as online if you let them know what they're going for online, and they make a little bit on the parts and will also warrant the job for 6 or 12 months.

Speaking of warranty, I had considered at one time going with one of those Just Brakes type chains that offer lifetime warranties, but not sure if that applies only to the pads or also to the rotors. I suspect their parts wouldn't hold up though, so even if they honored the warranty there'd still be the ongoing PITA factor of having to get them replaced every 6-12 months. POssibly easier on the wallet though. Just a thought.


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## Halebone (Jul 15, 2014)

*Thank you!*

Thanks for the advice. I agree; unless they are zero cost I'll never put the oem stuff on. I'll check out the stuff on brake performance.com and let you know how it all turns out. Feelings on tires...?


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

Check Rock Auto .com also. And google for the regular 5% discount code. Lots of options there and other places too. You should be able to get all the parts for <$400 or so for all 4 corners, and it's by no means an $800 labor job. For VW to quote you $1200 after their contributions is nuts and unethical when you factor in the crappy OEM chinesium parts Mopar is using on these.

As for tires, I went with the Yokohama YK580s sold only at Discount Tire and have been pleased. Put them on the van and the Passat and very happy with the results. Similar specs to Michelin Primacy tires, but better cost. Much improved over the OEMs. The only minor complaint is they seem to squeak a good bit if you turn the wheel before you get moving. I've historically shopped tires at warehouses (Sam's, Costco, etc.) going back to the mid 1990s, but Discount Tire is reasonably cost competitive to the warehouses when you catch some good rebate specials, and they seem to have much better trained (and friendlier) employees. And they take appointments on the future rotation/balances, which is well worth the $4 or $5 per tire premium they charge on the purchase side. The cheapest purchase cost isn't always the best value.


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## Halebone (Jul 15, 2014)

No resolution on the brakes yet, but, I do have an appt to get a new set of Yokohana Parada SPEC-X tires. I looked into the YK580s, but, we have no Discount Tire outlets in my neck of the woods. (just north of Boston) I was looking for something similar in the Yokohama line and found the Spec X. I had a set of Yokohama AVS tires on my old VR6 GTI that were fantastic. (as long as there wasn't a drop of rain for miles) in the dry I had to work at it to get them to break loose. I know I wont get anything like that out of the spec x, but, the reviews were positive.


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## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

So I ended up not buying the routan. I miss read the dad and thought it had the DVD player with two screens. It ended up only having the DVD audio with no screens. With people saying the RSE is worth it's weight in gold. I opted not to get it. I still have until jan before #2 comes. So I can wait to find my perfect routan. 

I do have a few more questions. Can you play video on the RSE from an iPhone? I've read that the new caravans have an updated navi. Is it possible to replace the routan navi with this new navi? 

Lastly for now. Monster mats or weather tech mats?


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

I think you'd have to figure out how to run iPhone output to RCA jacks for the inputs. The Routan has RCA inputs behind the middle row captain chair on the driver's side, so that would require a really long cord or giving up your iPhone to the kids. I don't think you can run it through the Aux jack on the head unit, but I am not sure. There's another thread here somewhere where the poster bought a cheapie harddrive or mp3 player or something and figured out a way to transfer videos to it and plug it in through RCA jacks. No clue if newer Chryco head units would work up front for playing iPhone video, but have you priced the head units? They are expensive.

You're looking at 2012 model year Routs, but not sure how the 2013 MY Caravans will be pricing as the 2015s start rolling out later this summer. I don't believe Dodge does particularly well with retaining resale value, so they may drop quite a bit. I believe with 2013 that the RSE was updated to blu-ray and has HDMI inputs where the prior systems were RCA jacks. I think they also now support bluetooth streaming at the head unit. The Dodge R/T line in dark gray looks rather nice too, IMHO. 

Monster Mats. The Weather Tech impede the center console from sliding back. That inhibits access to the center console at the front seats, and also prevents using the rear drink holders on the console for the middle row seats. Monster Mats are cut to fit from the factory. Main drawback with Monster Mats is they only come in black, and the middle row makes it more difficult to access the trap door storage below deck. Decent enough prices on ebay incl. brand new from VW dealerships.


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

I'm all about options. We made a decision years ago that we spent a lot of money and a lot of time in our vehicles for many years. Having the options, even the little ones, seems to make a difference over those years. Back seat warmers mean a lot to kids, teens and adults in the middle of winter with below zero temps. Two DVD screens in the back, with the ability to play two different movies at the same time has made a difference to my now 18 year old who would rather not watch my 7 year olds movies. 

My recommendation, go highest model and newest year you can afford. Enjoy it. If you pull, you want tow prep. Comparing a Dodge Caravan isn't a bad idea. Brakes are the only problem my 2010 has had and that problem is thus far finally fixed. I don't have fogs on my SEL, wish I did. Lighting on my year is not as good as I would expect. HIDs are even better. I would have rather bought an SEL Premium, but missed the boat.


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## jettafock (Mar 11, 2004)

Going to look at another one this weekend. It's a 12 SEL Premium dark gray with 31k miles. They are asking $24,500. I hope to get them down to $23,000.


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