# Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference?



## GruvenVR6 (Aug 2, 1999)

How does Audi produce the 45 hp difference in the two models? Is it a higher boost level, better intercooling, or something else? Looking at the engines, I noticed a different pipe on the passenger side the engine resembling an intercooler pipe, but that seems to be the only visible difference.
I've been toying with the idea of getting into a TT, and am wondering if the price difference between the 2000 180hp and 2001 225hp is worth it? I will be chipping it soon after purchase, and eventually K04ing it. Is the insurance much higher for the 225 model? 
Any help would be great. Thanks!


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (GruvenVR6)*

225 version has larger turbo, uprated engine internals, twin intercoolers. IMO it's worth the difference in price; the more powerful car is superior in stock form and as a starting point for tuning Lots of people with 180TT's will disagree, no doubt. Not sure about the insurance difference...


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (GruvenVR6)*

In addition to above:
Engine internals on 225 are the best of 1.8T's...reinforced block, etc.
All 225's are 6-spd quattro, and a new 180 will mean you're stuck with Tiptronic (I believe). If you're interested in used, you can find 5spd quattro 180's, but 225 6-spd is superior gearbox!
I seriously doubt a 225 is going to bump insurance much.
Cheap way to big power is 180 with Stg 3, but.....you're stuck with a bad gearbox, absolutely positively must do an FMIC AND a Quaife/Peloquin, and FWD-only unless you find a used quattro. Quattro versions do suck a little more power so you'll have less wheel hp, but it's the trade-off for handling/traction...worth it in my estimation.
Roadsters add more weight over cpe; quattro coupes are significantly heavier than Mk4's and 180FWD versions.
It's hard to recommend which TT model since we don't know your driving/performance intentions. A chipped 225 with catback and airbox change will give you a sprightly car at reasonable costs, but they by no means qualify as fast sports cars.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

a 225 once modded with the normal chip, intake and exhaust is quite fun. it'll roughly do 5 sec to 60 and high 13s in the quarter, with 100 octane. it'll easily break 150, them me repeat 'easily'. so it's not the fastest, but pretty damn quick. and enough to get anyone into alot of trouble.it of course already has the KO4 and is more relaxed than a super modded 180hp.


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## AudiVwMeister (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*

in addition to the above, moreso on the gearbox, the mq350 (manual 6spd) features 2 final drive gears, what that does for you is 1-4 are on a different sized final drive and 5/6/R are on a taller final drive, making 1-4 really tight, but 5 and 6 are spaced out for highway cruising.
another thing, about that k04, its also the biggest of the k04 series turbos avail. so unless you know someone that will do custome turbo back exaust, thats pretty much as good as it gets, and you get it from the get go.


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## ILLZ (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*

I just recently purchased a 2000 180 quattro. The differences are worth it, no doubt. But the extra cash that you'll shell out for the 225 is something that I couldn't afford. The MAJOR difference to me, is the KO4 vs. KO3s. My opinion on hp goes as follows: When I bought the car it felt much quicker than my old 2.0 Jetta, and now that I've had it for 3 months it's beginning to feel sluggish. I have enough extra cash to purchase a chip, so it'll have that kick-you-in-the-pants feel again for a few months, at which point I should be able to get an ATP stage II kit, or maybe purchase a used KO4 for cheap if I don't have the money for the ATP. Adding power is a progressive process for me, and I can enjoy the car in different stages while saving up the extra cash for the power upgrades. My suggestion - if you can reasonably afford the 225, get it. If it'll be a stretch, just spring for the 180 and add the power over a period of time. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M this 1!* »_..... it'll easily break 150, them me repeat 'easily'. so it's not the fastest, but pretty damn quick. and enough to get anyone into alot of trouble....

YUP!!!!! ...it will, in fact, hit 160 with the limiter removed on chipped/exhausted, etc 225.








To further comment on post above:
I had a K04'd Jetta, but that particular model is NOT same K04 as in a 225. It basically becomes inefficient above 6K. I do not advise going that route on a 180 unless you get a good used one dirt cheap, but I'd personally not trust it. A chipped K04 in 225's (with breathing freed up) will have no problem running to the new chipped rev limit which is about 7200!
If you're buying a TT for its unique styling, the 180 is still a good choice. Several places are in process of developing Stg 3 kits for the 225 which will be close to pricing for 180/Mk4 Stg 3's.


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## ILLZ (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sheep* »_
I do not advise going that route on a 180 unless you get a good used one dirt cheap, but I'd personally not trust it.

Yep, that was what I was implying. The gains are minimal and they have a spotty track record but for the right price, sure


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## GruvenVR6 (Aug 2, 1999)

How do I tell if a 2001 model is a 225? I saw one in Durango when I was up for a visit, and the dealer (after I emailed inquiring about it) keeps telling me "it is a 2001 Audi, 1.8t Quattro model". Also, they are asking 23,995 for it with 39k miles. Good deal? 
It's amulet red....and boy is that a sexy color....


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: (GruvenVR6)*

225's will have only 6spd gearbox. 180quattro manual is still a 5spd. If it's a 180, it seems overpriced...cpe or roadster? Is this an Audi certified used car? Amulet is nice, but don't get caught buying a color without knowing the mechanicals/specs for sure.
M this 1! would be better able to comment on pricing since he's in sales.


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: (GruvenVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GruvenVR6* »_How do I tell if a 2001 model is a 225? I saw one in Durango when I was up for a visit, and the dealer (after I emailed inquiring about it) keeps telling me "it is a 2001 Audi, 1.8t Quattro model". Also, they are asking 23,995 for it with 39k miles. Good deal? 
It's amulet red....and boy is that a sexy color....

why yes, it is...








Externally twin tail pipes means it probably is, inside 6 speeds means it almost certainly is a 225hp car, unless somebody wanted to do something pretty unusual with his 180.
There are alot of mods you can do with 180 cars, Gruven; If building the ultimate 180 TT is NOT your goal, you can still build a quick and enjoyable car even without going to an APR St. III, or some other big-turbo converison job. 
There is also more, and more expensive stuff that can break on 225 cars, or even 180 Quattros when you focus in on the Haldex hardware. Not a knock on the 225s, since all the performance pluses people mentioned above are true, but its something that you may want to factor into your consideration. 
Does anyone know how the two versions compare insurance-wise? I don't know and I am curious.
I find that my 180 FWD revs out pretty well to 7K RPM, now that I have upgraded the exhaust system from turbo - back.
The 180 can also have it's charge air-cooling capacity upgraded wthout a FMIC, which could be important to you if you don't want to do any bumper-cutting and maybe losing some of the ancillaries back there like you headlight washers, or if you just don't like the look of the FMIC. As an alternative, you can adopt the dual intercooler system, which the 225 already has!








The single biggest downside to a FWD TT, IMO, is traction , or the lack thereof. It is gettting to be a PITA with the mods I currently have, in more and more situations. I do think a Quaife is in my future.
Good luck - you will like the car whatever version you get!


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## Rolo0919 (Oct 1, 2003)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (GruvenVR6)*

I went through this exact dilemna when I started looking at the TT. I stepped up to the TT from a 01' MKIV Jetta which I had lowered, chipped, and exhausted. I too couldn't see the justification of the additional scratch especially when test driving the 180 and 225 back to back. The difference with the 225 was not impressive. It was not till after I made the purchase of the 180Q that my lack of research reared its ugly head. All the benefits these guys are talking about are true and I was very regretful of my purchase for some time. However, I have since had a revelation and now do not regret getting the 180, especially for what I paid for it with only 15,000 miles on it. The styling is the same, the interior is the same, and the suspension is the same (quattro). If you can save 6-7 grand on the initial purchase you can get a kick ass turbo upgrade from APR that will let you hang with most anything on the road (don't forget FMIC). If you strap yourself for the 225 you are not going to have the cash to do the stuff you will eventually have to do to it anyway, such as wheels, tires, springs, and the chip you will have to have, because like the rest of us it will never be fast enough. The 225 doesn't handle or look any better than the 180. The six speed guys are big fans of their gearbox, but if you are like me and have never owned a six speed you won't miss it. Throw a B&M short throw in the five speed and you have at the very least a tolerable tranny. I have never understood the benefit of an added gear change during sprints anyway, especially with the crappy stock clutch. I wouldn't recommend the fwd if you plan to heavily mod it, traction will become an issue which is the precise reason I got rid of the VW. Most guys just look at the HP, but a chipped 180 WITHOUT exhaust get you a respectable 265 ft/lbs which makes runs around town a blast. If you can find a 180 quattro for around 20K you have yourself a good deal. Compare that to 30+ for a 225 R. Save your cash, get a 180, APR upgrade for 290 horses, FMIC, Koilovers, and a dual outlet Milltek and you'll be ahead of the game and no one will no the difference. The coupe vs. roadster is up to you. Personally, the Roadster may be more fun in the summer, but the coupe has a more attractive roofline. Just PLEEEASE, don't be one of those guys driving around with the top down and windows up







. Good Luck.


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Rolo0919)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rolo0919* »_I went through this exact dilemna when I started looking at the TT. I stepped up to the TT from a 01' MKIV Jetta which I had lowered, chipped, and exhausted. I too couldn't see the justification of the additional scratch especially when test driving the 180 and 225 back to back. The difference with the 225 was not impressive... 

It's true there is not much difference on bone stock cars, but this model K04 on the 225 is totally different animal than the K03 (sport or not) on the 180. You can install quality airboxes on both (such as the TTDA) and with no other changes, the 225 will benefit greater over that same change on the 180 because the OEM airbox simply strangles the K04 which is designed for much higher revs. That's why the 225 is rather unimpressive without freeing up that turbo. I've had a K03 Mk4, same car with a replacement K04, and now the 225. The performance levels and characteristics of all 3 is considerably different and each responds to normal mods in different ways. The K03 in the 180 will give you more punch/torque down low, but it suffers terribly up top.

_Quote, originally posted by *Rolo0919* »_...If you strap yourself for the 225 you are not going to have the cash... 

If going to the 225 straps you with harsh car payments, that's insane.... not for ANY car. Nobody here is suggesting strapping yourself to a bank book.

_Quote, originally posted by *Rolo0919* »_.... The six speed guys are big fans of their gearbox, but if you are like me and have never owned a six speed you won't miss it. Throw a B&M short throw in the five speed and you have at the very least a tolerable tranny. I have never understood the benefit of an added gear change. 

A short shifter will not cure the inherent woes of the weaker 5spd (Mk4) gearbox in the 180. I had a modded 6spd hipo car prior to the 5spd Jetta. He sees no advantage for the extra gear because he's not lived experientally with one...ignorance is bliss. If you've ever owned one, you'd hardly ever want to return to a 5spd if 6 gears are available. For sprints (drags), you are only going to use 4 gears anyway, not even 5. The 6th gear shines on open roads & interstate traveling...period!!! You do not have to be driving 60+ to appreciate it either. Actually, the performance "attraction" of the 6spd has less to do with the extra gear, but that it is a far more durable geabox/clutch from the git-go...internal design is different. It's smoother. There are quite a few Mk4 guys tearin' up their gearboxes without running any Stg 3's.
If you're not into racing and bangin' gears, then the 180's 5spd is fine and the car looks exactly like a 225. Just chip it, throw on a catback, susp and nicer wheels and enjoy the savings.
NOTE: The fellow 2 posts up who's pushing his 180 to 7grand will ultimately blow that turbo. The K03's efficiency drops off HUGELY after 5800rpms, so if dragging you'll actually have slower ET's by going beyond 61-6200rpms. Check the dynos in the 1.8T forum on chipped K03's...they operate fabulously within their designed-in torque range...not above it.
---
Anyway, purchase ultimately depends on *your* intended purposes.


_Modified by Sheep at 12:52 AM 1-6-2004_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

well said sheep.
also, you should be able to find 225 cars relatively close to 180 cars with price. they weren't $10k separated when new, they won't be afterward either. example, we have an '01 certified pre-owned car with only 26k on it for $27k. it's a very loaded 225 roadster. coupes are cheaper, faster, and roomier.....but i'm being biased with that one. an example of easy power:
180hp/174tq...........Giac chipped = 210hp/240tq
225hp/207tq............Giac chipped = 260hp/290tq
and of course more to come with basic bolt ons.


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## GruvenVR6 (Aug 2, 1999)

Thank you guys for your excellent responses!! They are really pushing me more towards my priorities with this purchase. I am not in a hurry to buy, and I know that the right car will come along. The truth of the matter is that this car WILL see modification, WILL see the track, and WILL see some abuse, and I want it to be able to handle it. Also, the Coupe is definately 100% my choice over the Roadster. 
I will keep an eye in the papers and Audi dealerships around the country to see if I can find a nice 2001 225 Coupe. Any chance of getting one sub $23-25k? I had originally been shopping for an S4 in the same ballpark, but I would be equally happy with either one, I think.
Again, thanks for the responses, and keep em coming!


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## Rolo0919 (Oct 1, 2003)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

There is no refuting that what Sheep and M this 1 are saying. The 225 is a better performance vehicle out of the box. There is no doubt that ignorance is bliss, and there is also no doubt that you should not reallly consider a 180 unless, 1. you absolutely plan on a turbo upgrade, 2. you can get a really good deal on it, and 3. it has quattro. We all know that the K03 and stock intercooler are junk. The dilemna I had here in PA is that TTs are few and far between and when used ones do become available they don't last long. I have only one Certified Audi Dealer within 100 miles of my home so needless to say it was a frustrating search. Over my 1 1/2 year search the average variation between a 180 and 225 averaged between $7-8 K. That was just too much money to throw away over the life of the loan, and it was even harder to find a 225 that had under 30K on it and wasn't beat. I was under the impression, but assume now that I was wrong, that the 5 vs. 6 speed gearbox in the TT was similar to the 5 to 6 spd swap in the VWs around 2002. The short shift will absolutely change the smoothness of gear changes and takes out alot of the rubbery feel from the stock shifter. Every tech article I read on those gearboxes did not indicate any of the strength or smoothness benefits that Sheep is talking about. The articles also indicated that top gear on the 5 and 6 speed remained the same, the additional gear was found from 1-4. I was very interested in the six speed, because like my Jetta, my TT screams at high speeds, and I would have loved to have another gear. But I guess now that the TT box is an all together different animal. Both cars are great, both cars look good, and if you get a good deal on a 180 you CAN make up for the horsepower difference,or you can forget the whole thing and go get a Lotus Elise and have 12 seconds off the lot. Best of Luck and be sure to check the web for deals. A day trip might be worth saving some cash.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Rolo0919)*

Rolo, on your Jetta. if you had a 150hp version, you had a very short 3.94 ring and pinion. your TT has the same tranny, but with a 3.65. i'm sure you've notice WAY better driving with that. if you go huge power and want even more gearing, you can go to the 3.39 from the VR6 cars. it won't be quite as quick, but it'll have huge legs. 
as far as shopping for a car, be open to an adventure. i quite literally found my previous MKIII Jazz Blue VR6 in Atlanta. the guy sent me TONS of info on the car and pictures guaranteeing it was that clean. i actually told him i had zero problem getting right back on the plane if there were variables he hadn't disclosed. i flew out, car was perfect, i drove to L.A. in 3 days! it was the year the Superbowl was in Atlanta and there was snow and ice everywhere. talk about getting adjusted to a new car in a hurry.


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sheep* »_
The K03 in the 180 will give you more punch/torque down low, but it suffers terribly up top.
NOTE: The fellow 2 posts up who's pushing his 180 to 7grand will ultimately blow that turbo.  The K03's efficiency drops off HUGELY after 5800rpms, so if dragging you'll actually have slower ET's by going beyond 61-6200rpms. Check the dynos in the 1.8T forum on chipped K03's...they operate fabulously within their designed-in torque range...not above it.
---
_Modified by Sheep at 12:52 AM 1-6-2004_


STOCK, yes. 
not with chip and other mods, most importantly a turbo-back exhaust upgrade, which reduces backpressure and temperatures back up the line. I think those differences favor a turbo's longevity. Stock, there was no point in revving over about 5800 anyway, because the motor wasn't producing additional power, and even with the chip it wasn't that much better at high rpm. Now, there most certainly is a point.
There is good potential in the "K03 Sport", and there is good proof of that in the 1.8T forum today. 2 guys (Krautfed and Vdubndizzy) who have done a hell of alot with that little turbo, and not only when on the bottle. Check it out.
Getting back to the turbo blowing, I'm optimistic. I don't race it, I don't miss shifts, and excursions to 7K are pretty rare for me. Keep you posted...








Yes, the 6 spd (02M I think?) is better and stronger than the 5-spd 02J. Then again, I don't thrash my gearbox, and mine has been fine thus far. Yes, I did enjoy having the extra top cog in the 225s I've driven, on the other hand, the extra shifting itself isn't always a joy.
I like the 225 alot - I even considered trading mine for one a couple of times. When I bought mine, the extra $$ stretch to the 225 probably wasn't doable, or at least advisable. Now, It'd be OK. But the further I've gotten into my "180", the more I like it.


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*


_Quote, originally posted by *John Y* »_There is good potential in the "K03 Sport", and there is good proof of that in the 1.8T forum today. 2 guys (Krautfed and Vdubndizzy) who have done a hell of alot with that little turbo, and not only when on the bottle. Check it out.

I'm aware of their "exploits," and Yup, you can make the K03 live IF you don't beat on it, but there were numerous examples of K03's laid waste by guys who refused to back off the heavy pedal. If you look at Vdubn's dynos, you'll see the crossover for power and torque is right around 5500rpms. The horsepower (torque falls off hugely after 3K) goes flatter right up to 6400rpms then falls abruptly. Since torque is what drives acceleration, and hp speed, you're not getting any benefit by pushing to extreme upper revs since you've already reached max-hp zone. N2O will obviously accentuate power and is not indicative of turbo's efficiency; it helps spooling. I've not seen his nor Krautfed's shiftpoints. The 1.8T is a torque motor, not a high-rev powerhouse. Work the internals and you can make it run more efficiently up top.
I can appreciate those guys' times and milking everything possible from that dinky turbo, but they are using good tires with proper susp/driveline components. They are also tearing all the seats, etc out of car to dump weight and that's not allowable in true stock class drags. Common rule-of-thumb, 1/10sec lower ET for every 100lb you dump. Short of blueprinting the engine, etc unless they change the turbo, there will be little else to be gained as a "stocker." But a larger turbo will surely be a LOT cheaper than blueprinting.
Opening up the airbox/exhaust system will not make the turbo last longer....it merely allows the turbo to spool more freely so you can achieve the more power benefit from it...the engineers know that. Installing str-thru glasspacks/duals on "papa's car" didn't make it last longer, but it sure got spunkier and sounded whole lot better. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

Yes, as you point out, and as anyone can gather from their posts, those two guys are also regularly running their cars on the ragged edge! Regularly doing 1/4 runs, dragging, plus other "races" and "spirited" driving...I don't know if they have already gone through a few turbos or not. I am assuming that my driving pattern doesn't resemble theirs - I hope. I think that will make a difference for me in the long run, but I also follow their exploits to see how their turbos do fare.
My point went more to what can be done on a stock K03; (without nitrous.) Krautfed's dyno, IIRC, showed that he was still making around 210hp at the wheels at around 6400-6500, that's alot more than stock, obviously, but it's also at significantly higher RPM, so it shows that the car's powerband can be extended quite a bit. His HP peak was earlier. Torque has dropped off by then some too, but the thing is that the hp and torque levels at that rpm are still high enough to make it worthwile to take the motor there. I'd be surprised if they are shifting earlier.
So, I believe that it's not just a powerband extension they've achieved with their K03s, but a useful one, albeit not in every situation! Obviously, it would help if we knew their shiftpoints when they are trying for the best 1/4 mi. time. I guess I will inquire.
The other point was that some of that top-end efficiency comes from what they've done with their exhaust tracts. No, adding a free-flow exhaust does not improve a turbo's longevity per se, sorry if that is how I came-across. But opening up the exhaust does bring reduced backpressure and lower temperatures. Those conditions are intrinsically better for a turbo than the opposite, i.e. "more backpressure" and "higher temps".
Put another way, if Krautfed's 215whp (or my XXXwhp) result partly from his high-efficiency turbo-back exhaust system, that is a better situation for his turbo than if he'd left the stock exhaust in place and managed to squeeze the same 215whp out of the car by other means, most of which presumably would involve the motor and the turbo working harder and hotter to produce that same result.
I'm not building the strongest 1.8T I can, so I am not going St. III or something comparable. I also would never want to even try to use my TT the way they do, since that means gutting the car for weight reduction, and a raft of other changes which you alluded to, none of which make the car more pleasant to drive. I just wanted to share my view with Gruven that even a "180TT" can be modded to make good, reliable power, and still be a car you'd want to live with - which is I think the whole point with our TT's right?
If I was going for "max" power, no question that trying to squeeze that much from a K03, or even going much beyond the level those guys have attained is a fool's errand! Though I haven't dyno'd my car, I am guessing I am not at their level anyway, maybe approaching 200 at the wheels.
But now I really am interested in their shifting habits...


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*

I think we both are basically in agreement...I do NOT begrudge anyone for choosing the 180 over a 225. You can get "started" with a Stg 3 (if so inclined) and be well past a chipped 225 in power #'s. If it's an FWD, you can make it a much better handler with the LSD, which you'd need anyway for the Stg 3. The gearbox/clutch is the main concern if you're constantly speed shifting, although I know some feel the ratios on the 5spd are better for 1/4mi than 6spd. I haven't found that so, but I no longer live at the dragstrip.
For us fellows with early '01 Mk4 AWD's who got stuck with non-spt K03's, the K04 was the very obvious upgrade; useless for those with AWW/AWP's. Yes, the K04 increased power/torque & extended the rev range a bit (very little on torque), but if you drove the car too high up the rev range, when you shifted, the revs fell back where you were already above the torque range...I could pull the same acceleration by shifting at 6200 as when I pushed it to 6700, AND save stress on the turbo.
One very huge benefit of the 180FWD is the real weight advantage it has over the quattro versions...300lb equates to .3sec in 1/4 before any mods...significant indeed.
I have been in contact with a turbo specialist whose supposed to get back to me on a upgraded compressor on a 225 OEM blueprinted K04. He said that car was making 370hp!! If that's the case, is a future 225 Stg 3 worth it? We'll see and I'll post if/when he gets back to me.
Enjoy the low-key discussions.


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sheep* »_I think we both are basically in agreement...I do NOT begrudge anyone for choosing the 180 over a 225. You can get "started" with a Stg 3 (if so inclined) and be well past a chipped 225 in power #'s. If it's an FWD, you can make it a much better handler with the LSD, which you'd need anyway for the Stg 3. The gearbox/clutch is the main concern if you're constantly speed shifting, although I know some feel the ratios on the 5spd are better for 1/4mi than 6spd. I haven't found that so, but I no longer live at the dragstrip.
For us fellows with early '01 Mk4 AWD's who got stuck with non-spt K03's, the K04 was the very obvious upgrade; useless for those with AWW/AWP's. Yes, the K04 increased power/torque & extended the rev range a bit (very little on torque), but if you drove the car too high up the rev range, when you shifted, the revs fell back where you were already above the torque range...I could pull the same acceleration by shifting at 6200 as when I pushed it to 6700, AND save stress on the turbo.
One very huge benefit of the 180FWD is the real weight advantage it has over the quattro versions...300lb equates to .3sec in 1/4 before any mods...significant indeed.
I have been in contact with a turbo specialist whose supposed to get back to me on a upgraded compressor on a 225 OEM blueprinted K04. He said that car was making 370hp!! If that's the case, is a future 225 Stg 3 worth it? We'll see and I'll post if/when he gets back to me.
Enjoy the low-key discussions.









370hp? I am assuming that's at the crank, right!? Even so, that is some serious go. Let us know what the word is. I haven't followed this story too closely since I don't have a 225, but I never quite understood why it has taken tuners so long to put together a comprehensive "St. 3" type kit for the 225? Since it involves ditching the K04, and the 225 motors have some beefed-up internals, I couldn't figure out why it has taken so long - are there technical obstacles, or is it just tuners not getting around to the development?
I have thought about a TT 225 K04 turbo as a potentially worthwhile upgrade somewhere down the road since I'm not that interested in a "big turbo" conversion, and the consensus seems to be that the TT's K04 is a significantly better unit than the one used in aftermarket kits, plus the point you mentioned, that the "aftermarket" K04 differs little from a K03 sport. The problem is I gather that it is far from a "bolt-on" for an AWP motor, unlike the lesser K04. 
In the meantime, despite my optimism about my K03's future







, I've recently been thinking some cheap insurance is a good idea, so I may pick up a lightly-used, non-chipped K03 sport, for $200 just in case I do have a problem, and in anticipation of a hassle from the dealer if I do!
Yup, the traction or lack thereof is already an annoyance at my stage, which is why I am stoked up over the prospect of a Quaife - I think it is inevitable for me. Never having driven a Quaife-equipped car, I wonder about it - is it essentially transparent under normal conditions? I'm assuming so. I guess it's funny to ask what the absence of wheel spin feels like?? I guess I might want to ask Sean (Hottub) about it.
Likewise on the discussion http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Although there is not much traffic on this forum compared to AW there is sometimes more analysis and less snappy one-liners, I think. I don't think Gruven would've got this much detailed (and varied! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif) evaluation on AW, in response to his question.
Gonna be taking your TT up to TT-East, Sheep?


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*


_Quote, originally posted by *John Y* »_370hp? I am assuming that's at the crank, right!? 

Well, I'm assuming that also since he was saying the guy's mods were typical (nothing internal) and the software was supposedly conservative. He said he'd try to get info from the technician who actually built the turbo. I've emailed and heard nothing. The TT owner was about to run at Homestead. Now Brian at Eurotech-Atlanta who did my GIAC said he's a little skeptical about that number. I agree it's only a number unless the guy can get back to me with more details. Heck, a blueprinted K04 with larger compressor would FAR less expensive than a Stg 3. Even if the thing would produce "only" 340hp on 100oct, that's a pretty substantial jump!! Let's not hold our breath, but I believe there was some guy who did his own K04 mod and it was very good...never heard anything else though.

_Quote, originally posted by *John Y* »_I never quite understood why it has taken tuners so long to put together a comprehensive "St. 3" type kit for the 225?

Here in North America, the time/money to invest in designing a solid kit would not be worthwhile when you consider how few 225's there are to Mk4's and A4's. I'd assume they're just not going to get enough dollars back. I think that's why APR is taking their sweet old time on a release. Really get sick of all those quippy "2-weeks" remarks on AW.
I see Europe as being a place they'll make a kit for almost anything German! Still wish they made the S4/B5 platform.
-------------------
As far as TT-East goes, I doubt I'll get there unless it's held someday closer like Raleigh, NC coast, Myrtle Beach, etc. I'm in ministry so my schedule can run odd hours/days/places. I'm in G'ville until late August, then head back down coast again (Beaufort/Morehead City area). I'm originally from Philly 'burbs until moving here fulltime in '95. I guess you can imagine how the "preacher boy's" modded cars would attract young folks. I did a lot of jail ministry in Beaufort few years back. Used to do a LOT of serious racing at ATCO, Englishtown, Vargo, in former days and pitted for well-known racer too...motorhead disease is bad, so pretty conservative anymore. In apt with no place to work on car so I go to Schwing's Modshack 2mi away.
===================
Started putting together albums of recent VAG cars on Imagestation..far from done!
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288012847
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288013201



_Modified by Sheep at 11:21 PM 1-14-2004_


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

yeah...2 weeks...hilarious....
Ministry and a TT, eh? Unique as far as I know! Very interesting...
I like the Dolomite, BTW.
Keep the shiny side up!


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## ILLZ (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sheep* »_One very huge benefit of the 180FWD is the real weight advantage it has over the quattro versions...300lb equates to .3sec in 1/4 before any mods...significant indeed.


Doesn't the launch capability of the quattro offset this weight advantage? I've seen numerous stock 1/4 mile times on various websites and they all seem to claim the same times for both FWD and quattro versions.










_Modified by ILLZ at 9:37 AM 1-15-2004_


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (ILLZ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ILLZ* »_Doesn't the launch capability of the quattro offset this weight advantage? I've seen numerous stock 1/4 mile times on various websites and they all seem to claim the same times for both FWD and quattro versions.









Actually with quattro, you're giving away weight AND power. The Haldex sucks off more hp/tq through driveline frictional loss than an FWD. Yes, a quattro has distinct advantage right off line on street tires. Put some stickier tires on the FWD, especially with an LSD, and the Q-advantage goes away. Key to 1/4mi racing consistency/times is proper chassis/driveline setup first...strength and safety in clutch/axles/gears/mounts/etc and susp which will keep wheels right on surface. Some folks are just better drivers too...as in all things: practice, practice.


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sheep* »_
Actually with quattro, you're giving away weight AND power. The Haldex sucks off more hp/tq through driveline frictional loss than an FWD. Yes, a quattro has distinct advantage right off line on street tires. Put some stickier tires on the FWD, especially with an LSD, and the Q-advantage goes away. Key to 1/4mi racing consistency/times is proper chassis/driveline setup first...strength and safety in clutch/axles/gears/mounts/etc and susp which will keep wheels right on surface. Some folks are just better drivers too...as in all things: practice, practice.

ILLZ, one interesting caveat to the weight penalty that the Quattros have over FWD cars - the Quattro 180s have either tighter spaced and numerically higher gear ratios compared to the FWD, and/or a higher final drive # to give a little extra oomph to offset the weight disadvantage. I noticed that on a friend's 180QC. I gather it's a standard Audi approach to the issue.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

i'd love to do a comparison with a not made 225 fwd TT coupe. i can pull 1.8 60fts all day long and occasionally dip into the 1.7's. so i'd love to see the difference at the end of the 1/4. the 180hp cars are not putting as much power down to make the difference as huge, even modded. unless there was a stage III shoot out. for comparison, look at the 1.8t challenge. the TT raped them in the 1/4 mile, and was heavier than most. so when you put down good power, the Quattro is king.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*

John Y, actually all 180hp TTs have 3.65 ring and pinions. the gear spacing is the same in all O2J trannies other than the MKIV VR6 12v as well. so the only TT with shorter gearing is the 225.


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## ILLZ (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M this 1!* »_for comparison, look at the 1.8t challenge. the TT raped them in the 1/4 mile, and was heavier than most. so when you put down good power, the Quattro is king.

What's this 1.8T challenge you speak of?


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*

the 180Q is an 02J? I thought 02Ms were 5 or 6 speed? I don't have my Bentley CD installed here; but the thing is, I can hit about 62,63 mph in 2d gear. I am pretty certain my friend's 180QC can't hit 60. Since both cars are AWP 180's both running the same GIAC chip, I don't know what else can account for that but some gearing difference.
Well...from what I can tell on the spec sheets re-printed on AW, the 180QC does in fact have shorter (numerically higher) ratios in 1, 2 & 3 than the 180FWD cars. Makes sense, to get them moving roughly as quickly as a lighter FWD car. Also, the 180Qs that have a rear final drive in addition (2002 on?), use a numerically higher one there. 
Here's the link for the 01 cars - with only a single final drive on Q cars  
As you can see, the 180 Q has an ultra-short 1st gear ratio, 3.8x, then a big drop off to second, but still numerically higher than the FWD version, third too.

_Modified by John Y at 1:10 PM 1-15-2004_

_Modified by John Y at 1:21 PM 1-15-2004_


_Modified by John Y at 1:22 PM 1-15-2004_


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (ILLZ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ILLZ* »_
What's this 1.8T challenge you speak of?

Pick up a recent issue of European Car - maybe 2-3 months back? This was a contest they organized to find the "baddest 1.8T in America" There were separate classes for Tuner-developed and enthusiast cars. In that recent issue, they published the results. An MTM-tuned 225 TT coupe was the 1/4mi winner. My favorite among the tuner cars, too. Open the hood, and.....hmm, looks bone stock!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by John Y at 12:44 PM 1-15-2004_


_Modified by John Y at 1:12 PM 1-15-2004_


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M this 1!* »_i'd love to do a comparison with a not made 225 fwd TT.

A what??


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*


_Quote, originally posted by *John Y* »_A what??









A non-existent OEM 225 FWD only...that'd be some critter.







Rather have an A4 without Qtro before that unless they sold the FWD 225 with a Quaife and 6-spd at lower pricing... that'd be a real attraction then. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Man, the 225 Stg 3's would have been out long ago!!!
And I do agree with M this 1!....a quattro with power is a scorcher (ala modded AWD Talons, Evos, STi's)
------------------------
I get EC....how on earth did I miss the MTM 225??? All I recall was fast A4's








I threw the dang thing away already










_Modified by Sheep at 5:19 PM 1-15-2004_


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

That's what I thought he may have meant







...welll Sheep, that's pretty much where I am headed. I guess I've got close to 225 crank hp. The 6-spd would be nice, but I suspect expensive, (in Europe, you used to be able to order your FWD TT that way) and I have no clue what the technical complexities of such a swap would be. The Quaife, as discussed, is probably in my future. Someone said they run an annual 20% off sale through Autotech...










_Modified by John Y at 2:21 PM 1-15-2004_


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*

Marcus on AW picked up a 6spd DIRT CHEAP for his 5spd Stg 3 180Q....Schwing and he are going to do the install.


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

hmm...I'm guessing I'd need the 6-speed 02J (like the GLI & GTI VR6, GTI 337) to make it work easily, but I don't know? I think I recall his post, though.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*

that's what you'd need (337). it's actually the same as the TT with the double ring and pinions but with a different bell housing for fwd. you could take your time, throw in an LSD (as mentioned) and have a very sweet ride. if you get the 24v tranny, it'll have slightly longer gears down low, so you don't spin as much. again like the DSM Eclipses did.


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## ILLZ (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*

Wow, a multi-page thread in the TT forum, what an occasion!


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## John Y (Apr 27, 1999)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (ILLZ)*

I was ABOUT to post the same thing







This must be a record - keep it going!


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (John Y)*

you're right. this could already be close to a record.


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## Sheep (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (M this 1!)*

Nate, have you felt need to do dogbone poly/whatever upgrade yet? Since chipped, at times I'm feeling a shift in driveline...not disastrous like on Jetta (did VWMS upgrade to fix). Have not even done a hard charge out of hole yet! My 93file has gotten bit stronger since install...drove around in 100 for 3 weeks.






















Spoils you.










_Modified by Sheep at 2:25 PM 1-16-2004_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Differences between the 225 and 180 HP--? Worth the difference? (Sheep)*

i've actually not found a need for the dogbone. car seems to slam into gear solidly and not have any wiggle, etc. i did add B&Ms incredible shift kit which shortened height and throw length.


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## audi2001tt225hp (Jan 20, 2004)

*225 is definately worth it.*

I drove several of both 180 and 225 before I found a 225 in great shape. The power is incredible when the higher output turbo kickes in. Just go drive both and it will become evident. First off - the 6 speed with the lower gearing. I was not planning to do any moding to car so I wanted to start out higher hp.
Now I have to sell my TT so we can buy a boring SUV. Oh well it was fun for the the last year and 1/2. Selling for $21.5k and I am sure you can find one around in your area. Good luck and you will not regret it!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...64308


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