# More boot (trunk) lid problems



## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

There appears to be a few of these boot lid related problems coming up at the moment, although nothing I can find that matches my problem.

This afternoon I approached the car and pressed the button to open the boot. The motors whirred and the boot lid opened about 4" before stopping. I pressed the button again and the motors whirred but no movement. I manually lifted the lid, loaded up, and attempted to close it manually. Unfortunately now the black latch is in the closed position so I can't even close the lid properly and neither the 'open' button or the 'close' button does anything at all, no noise, no movement, no nothing. There's now a black tie-wrap holding my boot closed !

I had a poke around the latch and could find nothing jamming the mechanism. I've tried the reset procedure and no luck.

When I press the 'open' button I can hear the central locking operating and the lights flash as expected but nothing else ?

Unfortunately I don't have access to vcds diagnostics

What do you think ?

Thanks

Martin


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## seawind3000 (Sep 17, 2010)

You can try this: unlock the trunk with the key blade, SLOWLY open the trunk by hand (it will be heavy and move very slow, don`t force it, take your time) when it is all the way up, press the `open ` button on the door or key fob, then press the `close`button on the trunk lid and it should close as normal.

Mike


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## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

Yep, tried that - no luck.

The boot is open, it won't close as the latch is in the wrong position. When I turn the key in the lock nothing happens, no noise, no movement.

Martin


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Mantaray4600 said:


> Yep, tried that - no luck.
> 
> The boot is open, it won't close as the latch is in the wrong position. When I turn the key in the lock nothing happens, no noise, no movement.
> 
> Martin


Could it be a fuse? There's lots of stuff on boot lid problems in the ToC I think. Worth a look through that lot.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Martin,

When was the last time you repaired/inspected the cable loom behind the boot lid trim? It is possible that a wire has frayed in or near the cassette that takes up the slack as the lid closes.

Broken Sleeve on Electrical Harness leading to Trunk Lid How to fix TOC Photos done

Chris


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## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

Ahhh, new problem.

I stripped the boot lid as in the recommended thread. I couldn't see anything untoward with the loom - no obvious fraying etc - so I started to play with the latch. By pressing on the back of the latch it sprang into the open position - great, at least I can shut the lid now 

Satisfying click as I manually close the lid .... now guess what my problem is, yep can't open the boot to rebuild the lid, so all my tools and the lid parts are now loose in the back until I figure out how to get in :banghead:

When you put the key in the logo on the lid it's in the vertical position for open. I guess if I turn it clockwise 90 degree and remove the key that's the locked position. What should happen when I turn the key 45 degrees anticlockwise - should that manually operate the locking mechanism or does it operate the electrics to open the locking mechanism ? Either way nothing works ?

Martin


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## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

Ok, how do I get into the boot/trunk from the back seats ?

Car is a five seater with no ski hatch.

Can I take the rear bench seat out, remove the central arm rest and see into the boot through a hatch ?

The boot trim is off so if I can see into the boot from the back seat with a torch then I can manually release the latch by pressing on the top of the latch (pressing down is how I unlocked it when I thought I'd cracked it with the boot open !)

Martin


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Mantaray4600 said:


> Can I take the rear bench seat out, remove the central arm rest and see into the boot through a hatch?


Hi Martin:

Wow, sounds like you have a bit of a problem.

It *may *be possible to remove the rear seat bench, then the rear seat backrest, then the armrest assembly in the middle, and get access to the trunk via the aperture for the armrest - but I am not sure about this.

There is a solid steel wall between the rear seat backrest and the trunk - the only opening in it (other than small openings for wire bundles) is where the ski bag would go.

Below is a picture (not too good, but the only one I have) of my car - which is equipped with a ski bag - showing what the rear seat area looks like when the seat base and seat backrest have been removed. You can see more pictures that might be helpful at this post: Retrofitting a Television Tuner.

Michael


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

before taking you whole car apart: I had the same problem, the VW shop couldn't find the problem either, no damaged wiring visually, they placed a new controller, they checked the motors, they checked the wiring again with a multimeter, no result, no broken wiring. so VW german got involved, the hooked up the computer here in the netherlands en gemany was checking all the wiring in my car over the internet. finally result: there was a little bit of lose of power in the wiring, so that caused the strange behavior. Vw shop changed the wiring and problem was solved.

with vcds you can control the bootlid, so in that way you can unlock and open it.
in my case I could open the latch with the key and then open the bootlid manually.

thanks

jorg


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> When you put the key in the logo on the lid it's in the vertical position for open. I guess if I turn it clockwise 90 degree and remove the key that's the locked position. What should happen when I turn the key 45 degrees anticlockwise - should that manually operate the locking mechanism or does it operate the electrics to open the locking mechanism ? Either way nothing works ?


Hi Martin,

Regarding the key slot, I just checked my MY2006 and the physical key does not rotate clockwise at all. The key rotates about 160 degrees anticlockwise then unsprings the lock. It does not retract the lock, and does not trigger a power opening sequence. The mechanical key stop is at about 170 degrees anticlockwise.

The non-power-lid key pulls a short rod to mechanically unspring the unlock. I can't make out what happens with the power lid key, but when I tried it just now it felt exactly like a mechanical unlock process, rather than an electronic one. Perhaps the design has been changed from the drawings below.

Does your physical key operation differ from mine?

Chris


*Basic Lid Latch - remote release (9) operates on the hoop in the body sill*










*Power Lid Latch - power release (12) is the motor assembly in the lid*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Jorgsphaeton said:


> ...with vcds you can control the bootlid, so in that way you can unlock and open it...


Ah, I had not thought of that. 

But - the signal that VCDS sends to unlock the trunk is basically the same signal that is sent when you lift the small 'trunk unlock' switch on the driver door.

Nonetheless, it might be worth a try to hook up a diagnostic scan tool and see if you can trigger the release that way. Without having a Phaeton handy, I can't tell you exactly how to go about this, but I am going to guess that you would open up controller 46 (the central comfort controller) and then use one of the test functions for that controller.

Michael


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## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

Paximus said:


> Hi Martin,
> 
> Regarding the key slot, I just checked my MY2006 and the physical key does not rotate clockwise at all. The key rotates about 160 degrees anticlockwise then unsprings the lock. It does not retract the lock, and does not trigger a power opening sequence. The mechanical key stop is at about 170 degrees anticlockwise.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the ideas guys.

Chris if I insert the key vertically (I) then there's 90 degrees movement clockwise and maybe 60degrees anticlockwise. If I insert it horizontally (-) then there's just the 150 degrees movement anti clockwise, it depends on the start position.

In the 2nd diagram there's an angled item to the right of item 11, it's this that I pressed to release the lock. It's situated directly below the key barrel so turning the key should rotate something to depress this release - this isn't happening.

I'm going to run the car into VW tomorrow and get them to hook up the vcds/vagcom and see if something needs resetting to restore the electrical release, as it's obvious the mechanical release has failed.

Unfortunately as I stripped the boot trim I lined up all the parts I took off and all the screws neatly in the boot - with my torx driver set and screwdrivers - so they're all going to be rolling around as I drive !

Martin


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

good luck when you're at the vw shop, when you've lost some screws, they are in the sparetire compartment. I lost some screws too while driving and they fell in there via the floormat handle. 

jorg


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## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

*Some good news at last ...*

As I stood outside the office this morning recounting the depressing tale of my weekend’s boot lid woes, I pressed the keyfob button expecting the ‘all lights but no action’ response of the past three days. 

But no, just to make me look daft the boot lid starts twitching and trying to open. I ran across to the car and managed to jam my fingers in the gap enough to operate the pinch protection and voila the boot is open.

So I now have two problems. Firstly something is amiss with the electric release/close and secondly the back-up manual system doesn’t function.

In the centre of the picture below you will see the rotating key barrel that comes from the outside. As you turn the key the cam turns in the direction of the red arrow and depresses (green arrow) the mechanical boot release. Something is worn in my key barrel/cam assembly and as I turn the key it jumps (as if a cog has rounded over ?) and that missing cog is the 20 odd degrees of turn I need to turn the cam enough to operate the release.










A quick visit to VW reveals the whole assembly from the badge backwards is required and that they manufacture it to match my key for the grand sum of £142. It looks to be a simple job to fit the replacement.

So I have a two-week wait for this before they can start the investigation into the primary problem.

So the good news is they don’t have to break into the boot before commencing investigations. The bad news is I have to drive around for two weeks with a tye-wrap holding my boot almost closed for fear of it closing fully and never opening again !

Thanks for all the information and ideas guys, I’ll conclude the thread when I have more information

Martin


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

That's encouraging, electrically speaking! The photo is very useful.

Regarding the lid twitching, after the power lid is manually unlocked using a key and then the VW badge is pressed to recover normal operation, the system goes into a latch adaptation sequence.



First push of the VW badge: the sequence looks as you describe, the lid twitches up and down by a centimetre for two cycles then stops with the lid closed but still unlocked. It is the latch motor in the lid which is being exercised, not the hydraulic power lid motor.

Second push of the VW badge: the cycle repeats once then it stops, this time the lid is locked.

Third push of the VW badge: the lid opens as normal.

If you are seeing this twitching then the latch motor is now being commanded OK by the controller, which is a step towards recovery. Beware of pressing the lid remote one more time, in case the lid completes step 2 above and re-locks itself!

Michael has posted in the past a recommendation to trickle charge the left battery to see if this allows the controller to regain correct operation (one dealer reported 'low power to the trunk lid controller'), so that may be worth looking at once the mechanical repairs are done.

Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Mantaray4600 said:


> ...I ran across to the car and managed to jam my fingers in the gap enough to operate the pinch protection and voila the boot is open...


It is obvious that this is your 'lucky day'. Quick, go buy a lottery ticket, before midnight arrives... 

Michael


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## Mantaray4600 (Oct 17, 2012)

A short journey to work this morning had me warned about my boot being open by no less than 4 people .... I can't drive like this for two weeks until the new part arrives !

The electrical boot mechanism seems to be behaving itself and opening and closing without issue, but I can't trust it 100% not to stop again in the locked position.

I've now taken the badge/lock assembly off leaving a gaping hole in my boot lid through which I can depress the manual release. By sticking the badge half of the assembly back to the boot lid using double sided sticky pads I have an easy way into the boot should I need it. I know it's not particularly secure but there's nothing of value in the boot, and I'll only be using the car for commuting - and besides it looks normal from the outside and it's not like I'm going to tell anyone 

Before I allow VW to start fault finding the electrical boot problems I'm going to get them to replace the LHS battery. With a date of June 2007 stamped on the terminal it's now nearly six years old and I do get the occasional electronic gremlin of which the boot problem may be another related to the battery's decline.

Martin


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## rjm0831 (Sep 19, 2009)

*Boot or trunk lid issue*

I'm not sure if my experience is of any help but I began having an issue recently with my trunk lid failing to open using either the key fob or the door switch. It would respond by attempting feebly to open the trunk ever so slightly and then stop. I could then open it slowly by hand. Once I had it fully opened I tried the reset procedure described within the forum but to no avail. I made numerous attempts.

I could also open my trunk with my actual ignition key through the VW emblem but couldn't raise it other than manually. I couldn't open the trunk by pressing the emblem either. I figured out though that I had hydraulics since the trunk would actually attempt to open. It just didn't have any umph. This led me to thinking I had a weakened accessories battery. That was a fiasco in and of itself. Lots of worry for nothing.

It struck me that the trunk seemed exceptionally difficult to open manually. I knew I should feel some resistance but not that much. So I set about to luring all the hinge components using lightweight oil and lithium grease. I worked the mechanism back and forth to work in the lubricants.

Imagine my surprise when I pushed the close button on the trunk lid and she reacted promptly by closing. I hit the button on the door and she popped back open. So, for me, a lesson learned. Try the easy and least obvious steps first before imagining you have to replace control modules or hydraulics or spend tons of money at the dealer to have the problem diagnosed. A few drops of sewing machine oil can often make quite a difference.

Ron


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Ron makes a good point.

There is a post describing how to lubricate the trunk lid mechanism here: Trunk Lid Requires Excessive Effort to Close. That post is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category)

Michael


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Mantaray4600 said:


> Before I allow VW to start fault finding the electrical boot problems I'm going to get them to replace the LHS battery. With a date of June 2007 stamped on the terminal it's now nearly six years old and I do get the occasional electronic gremlin of which the boot problem may be another related to the battery's decline.
> 
> Martin


 Hello Phaeton forum colleques, 

I am just being confronted with a very similar electrical trunk issue, very annoying and i am really "terrified" to go ask VW technicians, so perhaps you smart members can give me some guidlines.... I red more or less all items in our forum, but the VCDS tells me the motor is defective ( oh oh)... 

The case: The trunk opened just 1/4 and suddenly stopped. Since than it refused to respond to anything. I now just can open and close the trunk manually. 

A view notes; 
- There is no visual damage on the wire loom 
- The harnas and mechanical items all are well lubricated 
- it happend a few times before that the trunk act weird, but just after closing maually it came back to work normal always. 
- i tried the "reset" routine, without succes ( open manually, press the trunk open switch on remote and than the close button on trunk door). 
- i let engine running, tried opening the trunk ( to skip a possible left hand battery low status), no result 
- Using VcDS i resetted the whole thing, but without result 
- when key in contact, when engaging the passager door button open trunk, i can see a slight power dip in doorlight, so something seems activated.. 
- Trunk illumination button light ( close button) is still illuminated ( but does not respond, same with driver door trunk opener 

Here is the outcome of VCDS; 
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl 
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F 
Component: X3 HSG 0102 
Coding: 0000040 
Shop #: WSC 00082 211 17103 
VCID: 336F2C7C51688580ED9 
Part No: 3D1 959 701 H 
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201 
Part No: 3D1 959 702 H 
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201 
Part No: 3D0 959 703 G 
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201 
Part No: 3D0 959 704 G 
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201 
Part No: 3D0 909 610 C 
Component: 3L HDSG 2330 
Part No: 7L0 907 719 A 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020 


2 Faults Found: 
01699 - Motor for Central Locking; Hatch/Trunk (V53) 
003 - Mechanical Failure - Intermittent 
00896 - Trunk Lock Unit (F256) 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent 

Any advise? Thanks , 

Wouter


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Wouter, 

The two fault reports ("intermittent", so not permanent) could still indicate some kind of wiring problem, because the probability of the latch mechanism and the motor failing at the same time is fairly low. 

The two common factors are the power supply and the wiring. 

When you say the wiring looks OK, do you mean that you have removed the trunk lid liner and inspected the cable cassette recently? This is one place where the wires could still break after a while, especially if lubricated with silicone instead of PTFE. 

Less likely, a fuse could have blown. 

Chris


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I also had strange behavior on the trunk lid. 
the vw dealership couldn't find the problem, they also checked the wiring with a multimeter and there was always contact so no broken wiring. after changing the controller, some trunk parts still no result. so VW germany got involved, the hooked up the computer and checked all the wiring and after some time they found that the wiring wasn't totally broken but it didn't send enought power throught the wiring, because it was not totally broken. so the controller or the motor didn't get enough power to operate normally. for example normally there goes 2v throught the wiring and now it was 1,75v and that was not enough. 
In your case I think that in open or closed possition it got a connection but when the wiring is moving it disconnects on the broken wiring. 
maybe you can test it with new wiring? 

Jorg


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Jorgsphaeton said:


> I also had strange behavior on the trunk lid.
> the vw dealership couldn't find the problem, they also checked the wiring with a multimeter and there was always contact so no broken wiring. after changing the controller, some trunk parts still no result. so VW germany got involved, the hooked up the computer and checked all the wiring and after some time they found that the wiring wasn't totally broken but it didn't send enought power throught the wiring, because it was not totally broken. so the controller or the motor didn't get enough power to operate normally. for example normally there goes 2v throught the wiring and now it was 1,75v and that was not enough.
> In your case I think that in open or closed possition it got a connection but when the wiring is moving it disconnects on the broken wiring.
> maybe you can test it with new wiring?
> ...


 Thanks Jorg and others, 

Well ot seems i need to check that wiring.... Its annoying as nothing happens at all now, neither in upper or lower position... I will also use that retrofitting triagle thing thread as i dont want to break anything to get to that cassete.


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Problem solved.... 

I went down armed with all tools to start "the wire loom operation". I innitially started to check all fuses involved, all ok. Out of nothing i heart " click" in the boot, lock mechanismen suddely waked up. So i assume the fuse 15 removal and insert did reset a controller... I just had to give a push to the trunklid and it went up. 

So basically all is working again..... I tested it Extensivly, so in my case there was not to a wiring problem (yet). 

Happy man again  nothing more annoying than struckling and trying to open the trunk manually at a gas station and people staring at you flabbergasted. Thanks all for your contributions as usual. 

Wouter


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Wouter,

That's 'kind of' good news! However, since thousands of other Phaetons do not reportedly jam up the lock, requiring a hard reset, I can only assume there is still an incipient problem.

May it stay away for a long time... 

Chris


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Hi Chirs, 

You were right, my happiness was for short time, so guess need to find the tools again.

Wondering, the problem occured on the exactely the same way as before, during opening routine, the trunk lid suddenly stops at approx. 30%. Only manually moveable. Since the problem returned now again, i noticed that my trunk compartiment lights (and lock) does not work either, so i suspected fuse 23 in trunk. Unfortunately that fuse is ok. All outside lights etc work all just fine.

My question before opening wire cassette: could both not working internal trunk lights also be caused by a defect in the trunk cassette?. It seems to me that the electrical problem is " before" the cassette. Also the lock does not work, but stay in closed position (indeed, i can manually close the trunk lid but i am not able to lock my boot now, but anyway better than not being able to open it  Any thoughts here?

Wouter


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Wouter,

I suggest that any of the wiring in the trunk lid can be affected by metal fatigue of the wires that run through the cable cassette. This includes the lights, the trunk opening switch and the lock motor.

A short between the wires can also feed back to give problems wth the equipment that is not fitted in the lid itself.

Those of us who have completely removed the fish-net cosmetic cable cover, that jams up and shreds the wires, and have sprayed the remaining cables with dry PTFE spray (not silicone) have so far not suffered any repeat cable damage.

It is not a long job to drop the trunk lid trim cover and inspect the wires. Any damage should be reasonably obvious. Look out for bunching of the fish-net cover, and wires either having the insulation split or with several of the thin copper strands that are contained in each wire to be broken or sticking out through the insulation.

When only one or two strands are left connected, the diagnostics do not report a cable fault but the series resistance is sufficient to stop the motor working properly. This effect has been posted a couple of times when dealers have traced the fault. Sometimes the strands can reconnect and the fault disappears for a few lid cycles, then they separate again and it stops working.


Chris


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Hi Chirs, jorg and others,

Problem solved .....however i am a little more carefull to say this, but with your help locating the problem and pointing the wireloom was indeed the case. The cablecassette in the trunk. As Jorg mentioned too, there was NO wire cut, but just damaged wires and possible causing short circuit or causing too much cable impedance. The damage could not been seen from the outside, i had to open the cable protection harnas first. 

Typical error: not responding lid to switches, lock did not worked, lights in trunk did not worked, so only opening and close manually was possible ( lid could not be locked)
Just wondering how come that fuses were not activated....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8a4b2ysex5yqwyq/Photo 19-08-13 18 28 33.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h5ni3wvvftuqjbk/Photo 19-08-13 19 06 22.jpg

This was the culpritt, indeed i had to open the cassette, fix the wires and reset via VCDS. 

All solved ( for now).

Thanks all again.

Wouter


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Helpful photos, thanks. 

I reproduce them again below, in case Dropbox gets a bit slow.

Chris











image (c) Wouter










image (c) Wouter


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