# Ko4 boost flutter between 3k rpm and 4k rpm.



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

Hi guys, i am getting a fluttering noise and the boost gauge rapidly fluttering between 21-25 psi as i come on peak boost at around 2800-2900 rpm that lasts until around 4000 rpm. It sounded like the d.v. but i have now ruled that out, after trying stock part and no change. I have heard that this is pretty normal, but this dont seem too normal to me and i want rid of it. 

Any one else with this issue, how did you solve it ? any help would be greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


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## stef80 (Oct 14, 2010)

It seems you have surging issue. Try to avoid it as it is catastrophic for your turbo.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

stef80 said:


> It seems you have surging issue. Try to avoid it as it is catastrophic for your turbo.


I thought if it was surge, i would get the feeling of the car shutting down or revs stalling as it happened. None of those things are happening.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

How long have you had the K04 installed? What ecu software are you using?


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

joeyvdubGLI said:


> How long have you had the K04 installed? What ecu software are you using?


Around 2 months, it is running Revo.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

acespizee said:


> Around 2 months, it is running Revo.


Ok, 2+ or 3? I ask because I did have the same problem, I have an 06 GLI using REVO as well, it started shortly after I got the K04 running 2+ s/w, my dealer mentioned REVO had released a new/better file addressing boost curve, once I got re-flashed with that it helped a lot. Then it came back, I went through A LOT of issues at the time.. honestly not sure which one was the cause, but between the re-flash, leaky KMD pump (swapped to APR) and going full Stage 3 (RS4 injectors and Stage 3 file, something fixed it.. Know anyone w/VAG-COM? 

Edit: sorry forgot to mention tightening WG actuator and spring.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

joeyvdubGLI said:


> Ok, 2+ or 3? I ask because I did have the same problem, I have an 06 GLI using REVO as well, it started shortly after I got the K04 running 2+ s/w, my dealer mentioned REVO had released a new/better file addressing boost curve, once I got re-flashed with that it helped a lot. Then it came back, I went through A LOT of possibilities.. honestly not sure which one was the cause, but between the re-flash, leaky KMD pump (swapped to APR) and going full Stage 3 (RS4 injectors and Stage 3 file, something fixed it.. Know anyone w/VAG-COM?


I am Stage 3 (S3 injectors for UK) and i have a Vag-Com. When your problem went away, was it at the warmer time of year ? I am only asking as some people have said this issue could occur in the colder months as the car maybe trying to make too much boost at that point ?

How much boost do you peak at and when ?


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

acespizee said:


> I am Stage 3 (S3 injectors for UK) and i have a Vag-Com. When your problem went away, was it at the warmer time of year ? I am only asking as some people have said this issue could occur in the colder months as the car maybe trying to make too much boost at that point ?
> 
> How much boost do you peak at and when ?


It was a while back, I live in Hawaii so I'm sure it was warm out.  But I recall it was just like how yours was, when it was getting better it wasn't doing it until higher rpm's.

Stef80 could be right, either way it's not normal.. should be fixed. maybe a common side effect from going K04/bigger turbo but not normal.

I recall a couple other threads being out there with this issue, but don't remember and exact answer from one. I was going to point you to the on golfmkv.com but I see you found it.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

joeyvdubGLI said:


> Ok, 2+ or 3? I ask because I did have the same problem, I have an 06 GLI using REVO as well, it started shortly after I got the K04 running 2+ s/w, my dealer mentioned REVO had released a new/better file addressing boost curve, once I got re-flashed with that it helped a lot. Then it came back, I went through A LOT of possibilities.. honestly not sure which one was the cause, but between the re-flash, *leaky KMD pump (swapped to APR)* and going full Stage 3 (RS4 injectors and Stage 3 file, something fixed it.. Know anyone w/VAG-COM?


Are you listening Chris???


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

joeyvdubGLI said:


> It was a while back, I live in Hawaii so I'm sure it was warm out.  But I recall it was just like how yours was, when it was getting better it wasn't doing it until higher rpm's.
> 
> Stef80 could be right, either way it's not normal.. should be fixed. maybe a common side effect from going K04/bigger turbo but not normal.
> 
> I recall a couple other threads being out there with this issue, but don't remember and exact answer from one. I was going to point you to the on golfmkv.com but I see you found it.. definetely seems to be boost related. (Which is weird because all of my stuff was fuel related, until I went to REVO 3)


You said you're problem moved up to the higher rpm band, that makes me think your problem is a little different to mine. My problem happens at peak boost around 2800-2900 rpm and lasts until 4000 rpm, from 4th gear upwards. So basically under really high load at peak boost. 

I was reading this post on the issue. http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137069

Forge say its the wastegate blowing open (made sense), Arin of APR said it was light surge (made sense, convincing and was not trying to argue). There seemed to be no conclusion reached. I dont know if the Forge actuator fixed the Guy's problem.  

What boost are you K04 guys seeing around the 3000rpm area ?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

It's light compressor surge. 

Wasting money on the forge WGA will only make it worse.

If you want to get rid of it, run less boost down low.


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## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> It's light compressor surge.
> 
> Wasting money on the forge WGA will only make it worse.
> 
> If you want to get rid of it, run less boost down low.


Hey Arin I have been having this same problem on APR tuning...Been running a complete s3 kit for about a month and on hard accelerations I see a pretty severe flutter.

Any suggestions or logs I should take?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Rub-ISH said:


> Hey Arin I have been having this same problem on APR tuning...Been running a complete s3 kit for about a month and on hard accelerations I see a pretty severe flutter.
> 
> Any suggestions or logs I should take?


It's just turbulent airflow as you approach the surge line. If you run the factory airbox, you'll experience it less.


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

Ive been tracking this for months and many convos with both people at forge and arin. Im only stage 2 but i think arins 100% correct, why?

During the summer i can hit more boost and it happens then, higher gears more load. 

This whole winter ive only spiked 21psi and havent had any surge.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

donjuan1jr said:


> Ive been tracking this for months and many convos with both people at forge and arin. Im only stage 2 but i think arins 100% correct, why?
> 
> During the summer i can hit more boost and it happens then, higher gears more load.
> 
> This whole winter ive only spiked 21psi and havent had any surge.


I think Arin is correct aswell, i am hitting 25 psi at the fluttering 3-4000 rpm point but after 4000 rpm the car holds 25 psi no probs with no fluttering.

I lowered boost until i was just under 20 psi (Boost 4) at that point and there was no fluttering, only problem with that is that it doesnt request higher boost after that point, which you would be missing.

I may speak to Revo about doing me a map that only request's 25 psi after 4000 rpm, when the turbo can handle it. :thumbup:


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

Thats how aprs k04 map works, i think its like 18psi under 4k rpms, and it rises after 4k.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> It's just turbulent airflow as you approach the surge line. If you run the factory airbox, you'll experience it less.


I'm sorry, I just believe that there HAS to be some other way to fix this issue than rolling back to the stock air box... I never went back to stock, and it went away. That can't be the answer, or everyone selling 2.0T K04 kits needs to add some fine print to their ads saying, oh by the way...



acespizee said:


> I lowered boost until i was just under 20 psi (Boost 4) at that point and there was no fluttering, only problem with that is that it doesnt request higher boost after that point, which you would be missing.


I did the same thing, starting out at boost 4, then moving up periodically.. seemed to adapt out eventually.


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

acespizee said:


> You said you're problem moved up to the higher rpm band, that makes me think your problem is a little different to mine. My problem happens at peak boost around 2800-2900 rpm and lasts until 4000 rpm, from 4th gear upwards. So basically under really high load at peak boost.
> 
> Forge say its the wastegate blowing open (made sense), Arin of APR said it was light surge (made sense, convincing and was not trying to argue). There seemed to be no conclusion reached. I dont know if the Forge actuator fixed the Guy's problem.
> 
> What boost are you K04 guys seeing around the 3000rpm area ?


Yes I had it low rpm range, then under high boost..

I'm waiting for a response from the shop that worked on it, I think, not sure, but I think we tried swapping WG springs at some point.

It's been a while since I drove my car since I'm deployed, but I pretty sure I was hitting like 16psi @ 3000, then spikes 21-22.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

joeyvdubGLI said:


> Yes I had it low rpm range, then under high boost..
> 
> I'm waiting for a response from the shop that worked on it, I think, not sure, but I think we tried swapping WG springs at some point.
> 
> It's been a while since I drove my car since I'm deployed, but I pretty sure I was hitting like 16psi @ 3000, then spikes 21-22.


If you are only getting 16 psi at 3000 rpm, you should not really run into this problem and sounds like you may of had a different issue, as 16 psi is really low. Was you spiking that 21-22psi in the 3-4000 rpm band ? if so that might make sense.

You also said you had it at low rpm range, then under high boost. I dont really get what you mean by this but again it sounds a little different to what i am seeing.

You also said you didnt have the correct hardware + software match, so your problem could have come from that, as when you went full stg3 your problem went. 

Not trying to be argumentative. :thumbup:

Was your throttle closing ?


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

acespizee said:


> If you are only getting 16 psi at 3000 rpm, you should not really run into this problem and sounds like you may of had a different issue, as 16 psi is really low. Was you spiking that 21-22psi in the 3-4000 rpm band ? if so that might make sense.
> 
> You also said you had it at low rpm range, then under high boost. I dont really get what you mean by this but again it sounds a little different to what i am seeing.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion. I had the flutter at different ranges..yes was probably 2 different issues, but I did experience the same thing you are at one point. I'm pretty sure the key thing for fixing the flutter was tightening the actuator and changed the spring as well.

I thought you were asking what I get now.. without the problem.. What I described there is w/o the problem.

Throttle closing?..not sure.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

rippie74 said:


> Are you listening Chris???



No because I just had a customer swap out his "magical" pump to stock and got rid of some too rich codes.

They all can leak, they all can have problems. Grow up


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> No because I just had a customer swap out his "magical" pump to stock and got rid of some too rich codes.
> 
> They all can leak, they all can have problems. Grow up


A fuel pump leaking into the oil creates "too rich" codes in the combustion cylinder? :laugh::banghead::screwy:

If anything it would create too-lean codes as it wouldn't be able to sustain the requested rail pressure and the injectors would be forced to open for a longer duration in order to meet the required A/F.

Maybe if you calibrated your software to correctly meter the fuel entering the engine it wouldn't throw codes.

Dave


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> No because I just had a customer swap out his "magical" pump to stock and got rid of some too rich codes.
> 
> They all can leak, they all can have problems. Grow up


The APR HPFP fuel pump is the only one that replaces the insides with brand new parts. The other ones you're just jamming a machined rod inside of the old pieces. The other companies pumps leak pretty badly. The APR pump does not leak. If it does, we would find it leaking when we test it. If it leaks later in it's life, send it back to us and we'll replace it.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

crew219 said:


> A fuel pump leaking into the oil creates "too rich" codes in the combustion cylinder? :laugh::banghead::screwy:



Yes Dave this is a well known issue.

The leaking fuel pump puts fuel in the oil, the fuel vapor is drawn in through the PCV system into the combustion chamber throwing off the resulting AF ratio as read by the 02 sensor. The ecu adapts and this can be seen in block 032 usually only idle fuel trims. Once they reach a certain point the code is set. 

It has been documented many times here. I actually did not believe it at first and Mike from Tyrolsport said he had seen it a few times. The person in question replaced their pump did an oil change and the codes went away. Several others responded that they had the same results, many were on stock fuel pumps and had every brand of software. Not everyone had codes but many just had fuel trims that were borderline and possibly about to set the light on. 

Seems highly unlikely but it has been shown to be a very legit issue.


EDIT:

Here is that thread were even i was saying it wasn't possible but was proven that it is..

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...e-code-after-HPFP-upgrade&highlight=rich+idle

The internals being used were not the problem it was the seal.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> Yes Dave this is a well known issue.
> 
> The leaking fuel pump puts fuel in the oil, the fuel vapor is drawn in through the PCV system into the combustion chamber throwing off the resulting AF ratio as read by the 02 sensor. The ecu adapts and this can be seen in block 032 usually only idle fuel trims. Once they reach a certain point the code is set.


This is 100% correct. It will actually be seen in both idle and run fuel trims. Our experience shows that it almost appears like a multiplicative rich code typical of a faulty MAF, but the excess richness at idle and engine oil which smells like fuel is a dead giveaway. :thumbup:


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Tyrol Mike said:


> This is 100% correct. It will actually be seen in both idle and run fuel trims. Our experience shows that it almost appears like a multiplicative rich code typical of a faulty MAF, but the excess richness at idle and engine oil which smells like fuel is a dead giveaway. :thumbup:


What deviations are we talking about here exactly ?

Over -10% ? over -25 % ?

I think a CEL is not thrown until the -24.6% limit is reached, but to get that rich of a mixture from PCV gases would mean all you have in the oil is fuel !!

I don't believe the seal issue is as big as APR wants others to believe.

I have been running the Autotech on my "old" pump for 70 K miles now with zero issues.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

GolfRS said:


> What deviations are we talking about here exactly ?
> 
> Over -10% ? over -25 % ?
> 
> ...


There is no exact percentage at where the CEL will illuminate. It depends on a number of different factors. As far as seals being blown, we have seen enough blown seals on non-APR pumps such that we won't even install a competitive product(And we don't even like APR in general because of their attitude). Consider yourself lucky with your pump. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Tyrol Mike said:


> There is no exact percentage at where the CEL will illuminate. It depends on a number of different factors. As far as seals being blown, we have seen enough blown seals on non-APR pumps such that we won't even install a competitive product(And we don't even like APR in general because of their attitude). Consider yourself lucky with your pump. :thumbup:


:thumbup:


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

:facepalm: Sorry for mentioning 2.0T HPFP's.. :laugh:

So, yeah, OP how's that flutter?


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

*?...AND THE TOPIC IS...?*opcorn:


acespizee said:


> Hi guys, i am getting a fluttering noise and the boost gauge rapidly fluttering between 21-25 psi as i come on peak boost at around 2800-2900 rpm that lasts until around 4000 rpm. It sounded like the d.v. but i have now ruled that out, after trying stock part and no change. I have heard that this is pretty normal, but this dont seem too normal to me and i want rid of it.
> 
> Any one else with this issue, how did you solve it ? any help would be greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The APR HPFP fuel pump is the only one that replaces the insides with brand new parts. The other ones you're just jamming a machined rod inside of the old pieces. The other companies pumps leak pretty badly. The APR pump does not leak. If it does, we would find it leaking when we test it. If it leaks later in it's life, send it back to us and we'll replace it.


*That's more than any other company can say. APR FTW!:beer:*


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

Great! 

OP is a REVO ECU tuning customer, so.. 



acespizee said:


> Hi guys, i am getting a fluttering noise and the boost gauge rapidly fluttering between 21-25 psi as i come on peak boost at around 2800-2900 rpm that lasts until around 4000 rpm. It sounded like the d.v. but i have now ruled that out, after trying stock part and no change. I have heard that this is pretty normal, but this dont seem too normal to me and i want rid of it.
> 
> Any one else with this issue, how did you solve it ? any help would be greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


Ace have you tried out anything yet? Are you using the Forge actuator? (regardless of what anyone thinks of it)


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

I have not tried the Forge actuator yet on the k04, a guy on the thread i posted up earlier has one installed and is still having the fluttering issue, i think Forge advised him to tighten it up a bit more. I am waiting to hear his response before trying that.

I think GolfRS has one, maybe he can share his thoughts on the subject.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

The fluttering noise is the ECU's control to keep boost pressure within limits.

Lower your boost setting and it will go away.

I really don't know why you people are getting so preoccupied with stuff like that.
FFS all i read is "my car makes a fart noise"..."my car makes a ticking noise"...
.."i installed the mounts and now my teeth hurt..."

I mean seriously people, if you don't want to be hearing "strange noises" just 
leave the car stock and stop whining.The car already comes too silent from the
factory....if you like it, stop messing around....


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> The fluttering noise is the ECU's control to keep boost pressure within limits.
> 
> Lower your boost setting and it will go away.
> 
> ...


I love all the noises my car makes and i love all my mods, its just that i am trying to find out if what is happening is harmfull or restricting performance and if it is how to get rid of it.

If i lower my boost it will also request less up top, which the k04 can easily deal with. So as you can see its not a case of 'dont mod the car if you dont like the noise'.

Please dont act like this thread is as stupid as those ticking or fart noise threads. If you are not interested, do not take part. Simple. :thumbup:

Do you have the Forge actuator ? did it fix the fluttering ? can i get better performance with lower boost at flutter point and higher boost after flutter point than what i am getting now ?

All valid questions i think. :thumbup:


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

acespizee said:


> I love all the noises my car makes and i love all my mods, its just that i am trying to find out if what is happening is harmfull or restricting performance and if it is how to get rid of it.
> 
> If i lower my boost it will also request less up top, which the k04 can easily deal with. So as you can see its not a case of 'dont mod the car if you dont like the noise'.
> 
> ...


What you say is true about the lower top boost pressure, but all that has to do with the characteristics of the turbo itself, and not the software.The K04 being a "small" (or for me a smaller) turbo, it spools up real quick, and if the rest of the peripherals allow it, easily overshoots the requested boost at peak boost rpms.The ECU tries to compensate, but there is a certain "lag" between actually opening the WG and the turbo winding down.Many times it could also be "weather related" since colder air might actually help the turbo spool even sooner.

So in all, its normal having this fluttering sound.If you don't like it and still want to keep the top end boost, ditch the N75 control and use an EBC.Or remove the intake and actually "restrict" the overboosting of the turbo.You can't have everything in life.

And no the Forge will not solve the issue.It's not your WG opening from increased manifold pressure which is what the Forge is aiming at.My suggestions are already written above.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> What you say is true about the lower top boost pressure, but all that has to do with the characteristics of the turbo itself, and not the software.The K04 being a "small" (or for me a smaller) turbo, it spools up real quick, and if the rest of the peripherals allow it, easily overshoots the requested boost at peak boost rpms.The ECU tries to compensate, but there is a certain "lag" between actually opening the WG and the turbo winding down.Many times it could also be "weather related" since colder air might actually help the turbo spool even sooner.
> 
> So in all, its normal having this fluttering sound.If you don't like it and still want to keep the top end boost, ditch the N75 control and use an EBC.Or remove the intake and actually "restrict" the overboosting of the turbo.You can't have everything in life.
> 
> And no the Forge will not solve the issue.It's not your WG opening from increased manifold pressure which is what the Forge is aiming at.My suggestions are already written above.


Thanks, but you can have less boost at the flutter point and then higher up top, and its all to do with software not the turbo (APR set there software that way). Revo can do this as i have spoken to them about it (They think it will make the car slower in the summer though as it will have even less boost than in winter.). The way the software is set up now, if you lower the boost it wont request the extra up top as i said. 

Does that fluttering (not talking about the sound) hurt performance in any way and would i be better off without it?

What are the disadvantages of using a EBC ?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

acespizee said:


> Thanks, but you can have less boost at the flutter point and then higher up top, and its all to do with software not the turbo (APR set there software that way). Revo can do this as i have spoken to them about it (They think it will make the car slower in the summer though as it will have even less boost than in winter.). The way the software is set up now, if you lower the boost it wont request the extra up top as i said.
> 
> Does that fluttering (not talking about the sound) hurt performance in any way and would i be better off without it?
> 
> What are the disadvantages of using a EBC ?


Trust me you won't like the car if your peak boost is lowered.I don't care what APR does with their software, it might as well be the reason their cars always finish last.You can also switch to APR if you want , and then race against a Revo car and see if you'd rather have the flutter than crap software.

The flutter doesn't hurt performance or the engine.It just proves everything is working as it should.
If on the other hand you lower peak boost, it will definitely hurt performance.

I cannot help you on the EBC part, as my software is working as it should and i haven't ever thought of getting one.I'm sure others can help.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

GolfRS said:


> Trust me you won't like the car if your peak boost is lowered.I don't care what APR does with their software, it might as well be the reason their cars always finish last.You can also switch to APR if you want , and then race against a Revo car and see if you'd rather have the flutter than crap software.
> 
> *The flutter doesn't hurt performance or the engine.It just proves everything is working as it should.*
> If on the other hand you lower peak boost, it will definitely hurt performance.
> ...


LOL! :facepalm:


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## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

GolfRS said:


> Trust me you won't like the car if your peak boost is lowered.I don't care what APR does with their software, it might as well be the reason their cars always finish last.You can also switch to APR if you want , and then race against a Revo car and see if you'd rather have the flutter than crap software.


:thumbup:

Good luck OP, Maybe hit [email protected] w/a pm.. or try the actuator. But I'm sure will go away one way or another and you'll be hitting solid boost down low.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

crew219 said:


> LOL! :facepalm:


I love it when you get technical.

At least you are good with smilies.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> The fluttering noise is the ECU's control to keep boost pressure within limits.


This is completely incorrect. 



> Lower your boost setting and it will go away.


Correct. 





GolfRS said:


> What you say is true about the lower top boost pressure, but all that has to do with the characteristics of the turbo itself, and not the software.The K04 being a "small" (or for me a smaller) turbo, it spools up real quick, and if the rest of the peripherals allow it, easily overshoots the requested boost at peak boost rpms.The ECU tries to compensate, but there is a certain "lag" between actually opening the WG and the turbo winding down.Many times it could also be "weather related" since colder air might actually help the turbo spool even sooner.
> 
> So in all, its normal having this fluttering sound.If you don't like it and still want to keep the top end boost, ditch the N75 control and use an EBC.Or remove the intake and actually "restrict" the overboosting of the turbo.You can't have everything in life.
> 
> And no the Forge will not solve the issue.It's not your WG opening from increased manifold pressure which is what the Forge is aiming at.My suggestions are already written above.


The sound has nothing to do with the ECU trying to control anything. You could tell the ECU to ignore a boost overshoot, run 100% duty cycle the entire run. Keep the throttle open the whole run. Keep the DV shut the whole run. Keep the flappers open the whole run. Keep everything else the same the whole run and it would still make the same noise. The noise is just turbulent air as flow approaches the surge line. A factory TT-S will exhibit some of this sound without any tuning at all, but the more boost you add in the lower RPM, the louder it will be.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> This is completely incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So now you are an expert on Revo software as well....Wow !!!

Your first response was it's compressor surge...



[email protected] said:


> It's light compressor surge.


...then you changed it to "turbulent air", ( :facepalm: ), funny enough when a member said he also experiences this on APR SOFTWARE.How convenient...

So explain to all of us Arin, why does "turbulent air" cause boost to fluctuate as the OP clearly sees in his boost gauge ??Must be a f***ng tornado !!! 
I'm really looking forward to what BS you are going to come up next...
Do you read that stuff somewhere or are you actually making it up as you go along ?

P.S.Damn it man, you should have stuck to photography FFS... :banghead:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> So now you are an expert on Revo software as well....Wow !!!
> 
> Your first response was it's compressor surge...
> 
> ...



'Light Compressor Surge' is a term used to describe the 'Turbulent Airflow' noise you hear you approach but do not cross the surge line. On a mechanical fast moving boost gauge you'll see the turbulent airflow pulses with a shaking needle.


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> 'Light Compressor Surge' is a term used to describe the 'Turbulent Airflow' noise you hear you approach but do not cross the surge line. On a mechanical fast moving boost gauge you'll see the turbulent airflow pulses with a shaking needle.


Which is the exact situation you describe i get in my apr stage 2. 


During winter with lower boost, no surge noise at all.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> 'Light Compressor Surge' is a term used to describe the 'Turbulent Airflow' noise you hear you approach but do not cross the surge line. On a mechanical fast moving boost gauge you'll see the turbulent airflow pulses with a shaking needle.


I think you should open a book and read what exactly compressor surge is...

There is no "light" or "fat free"...Either you have it, or you don't.

And since you already mentioned even stock cars have it, i doubt VW has factory cars running 
around....surging.

Boost pressure fluctuations have nothing to do with "turbulent flow".For pressure to decrease
something has to happen for the present air to escape.How do you suggest turbulence causes boost
drop ?Unless you are implying the engine can't ingest the incoming air, which is in fact the
explanation of surge, and that as i wrote above is nonsense on a stock motor.... :facepalm:


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

GolfRS said:


> Unless you are implying the engine can't ingest the incoming air, which is in fact the
> explanation of surge, and that as i wrote above is nonsense on a stock motor.... :facepalm:


Can you explain more why you believe this is not possible on a stock motor? VE will vary with RPM, so I'm trying to see where you're coming from with this statement.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

TypeR #126 said:


> Can you explain more why you believe this is not possible on a stock motor? VE will vary with RPM, so I'm trying to see where you're coming from with this statement.


Surge is the inability of the engine to "ingest" the increased incoming air.

Why do you believe VW would build an engine that is "out performed" by its parts ?

On a modified motor it could be a possibility, as for example cams might be matched to a turbo,
and changing the turbo without improving the engines efficiency might actually lead to
surging.

On a factory car though, what in your opinion can "offset" that balance ??


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

Sure, in terms of an all stock car I would be surprised to see any compressor surge, as there's generally a good deal of head room by design. I was thinking more in terms of the OP's situation where the turbo and/or boost being spec'ed is much higher.

I'm guessing your comment was solely directed at being all stock. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

TypeR #126 said:


> Sure, in terms of an all stock car I would be surprised to see any compressor surge, as there's generally a good deal of head room by design. I was thinking more in terms of the OP's situation where the turbo and/or boost being spec'ed is much higher.
> 
> I'm guessing your comment was solely directed at being all stock. Thanks for the clarification.


Well you see, there are many things "at stake" when you are baptizing something as "compressor surge".

With the knowledge that compressor surge is catastrophic for an engine, "light compressor surge" turns into 
turbulent flow....You don't wanna be opening Pandora's box now do you...

As for the OP's situation, as i said it's not surging.What it is is the ECU's attempt to equalize 
requested with actual.Compressor surge by definition has big variations in flow visible on the MAF' measurements, since the air is actually going backwards.If the OP could make a log of MAF values, WG values etc you probably would see are unaffected, and that comes from the fact the ECU is maintaining a reasonable "mean" boost pressure.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> What it is is the ECU's attempt to equalize
> requested with actual.


:facepalm:





> Compressor surge by definition has big variations in flow visible on the MAF' measurements, since the air is actually going backwards.If the OP could make a log of MAF values, WG values etc you probably would see are unaffected, and that comes from the fact the ECU is maintaining a reasonable "mean" boost pressure.


Depending on the sample rate during loggin the data may look too smoothed so hopefully if he just logs MAF and RPM from the same block, it'll probably look like this:












Depending on the application, you'll even see light variations of this stock. One could say the turbulent airflow is 'light compressor surge'. :laugh:


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

So golfrs, says its the ecu trying to mate actual to requested.

arin says its comp surge.

forge people say its the wastegate rattling because of its small spring size being blown open by high boost. 


just a cliffnote for peeps 

also the first time i took a vid of it and showed my vw cert tech he immediately said it was surge without question.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> So golfrs, says its the ecu trying to mate actual to requested.
> 
> arin says its comp surge.
> 
> ...


Please relay my congrats to your tech.

THIS is true compressor surge btw....






Note the high pinging sounds.That is the air going backwards through the blades.Compressor surge
BREAKS turbos, and they take the engine with them...

So according to your tech (and Arin for that matter) we are all going around with time bombs getting ready for the turbo to explode, and all that regardless of software or state of tune (Arin said it even comes ready from the factory)...

Nice....


----------



## 16 Valves of Fury (Jun 13, 2006)

GolfRS, on what standing can you give so much technical information or should I say criticism? Do you have an engineering degree? Do you work on cars for a living? Do you even perform your own work? I am not attacking, I am just being curious. I follow the FSI forum regularly, mostly as an observer and I can not help but notice that in nearly every K04 titled thread you have "blessed" us with your technical know-how. 

I would really love to share some technical knowledge but I am concerned that I will be corrected by the almighty GolfRS (who I admire dearly by the way) and I just couldn't deal with the defeat of offending someone so reputable.

If you could please include pictures and specs of your own setup along with your highly educated and informative response I would appreciate it. 

:heart: GolfRS :heart:

Oh and BTW I think most of you are confusing this "surge" with the noise coming from your open element air filters under various boost/load situations. Trust me, if you have surge, you will know it.


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

16 Valves of Fury said:


> GolfRS, on what standing can you give so much technical information or should I say criticism? Do you have an engineering degree? Do you work on cars for a living? Do you even perform your own work? I am not attacking, I am just being curious. I follow the FSI forum regularly, mostly as an observer and I can not help but notice that in nearly every K04 titled thread you have "blessed" us with your technical know-how.
> 
> I would really love to share some technical knowledge but I am concerned that I will be corrected by the almighty GolfRS (who I admire dearly by the way) and I just couldn't deal with the defeat of offending someone so reputable.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that lovely post...i laughed my ass off. 


Ill take the advice of the professionals before a weekend mechanic like him.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

16 Valves of Fury said:


> GolfRS, on what standing can you give so much technical information or should I say criticism? Do you have an engineering degree? Do you work on cars for a living? Do you even perform your own work? I am not attacking, I am just being curious. I follow the FSI forum regularly, mostly as an observer and I can not help but notice that in nearly every K04 titled thread you have "blessed" us with your technical know-how.
> 
> I would really love to share some technical knowledge but I am concerned that I will be corrected by the almighty GolfRS (who I admire dearly by the way) and I just couldn't deal with the defeat of offending someone so reputable.
> 
> ...


Talk about a psycho post !!!

I know you are trying to be ironic but you don't seem to be good at it.You are also
trying to support APR, and Arin, but not doing a good job at that either.

I've posted my setup multiple times, all you have to do is search.

What i'm gonna keep from your post is the fact you agree with me and this ISN'T compressor surge.

The rest is just useless blabber....


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> Thank you for that lovely post...i laughed my ass off.
> 
> 
> Ill take the advice of the professionals before a weekend mechanic like him.


I wanna see you laughing when compressor surge *destroys your engine* !!!!


----------



## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> Ill take the advice of the professionals before a weekend mechanic like him.


Swingingggg...
Do you realize that what he's saying IS also what _other_ professional mechanincs are saying?.. probably not. 



GolfRS said:


> The rest is just useless blabber....


:thumbup:


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

GolfRS said:


> Surge is the inability of the engine to "ingest" the increased incoming air.
> 
> Why do you believe VW would build an engine that is "out performed" by its parts ?


 Why not match the K04 with the S3 cams like VAG design it? example S3 packaged? Or aftermarket cam. There a reason why Vag went through the expense to put cams in the S3 ( other than needing more lift on the HPFP lobe for more fueling) The earlier generation S3 with the 1.8T didnt have or need a cam because of the better low lift flow of the cylinder head with its 3 intake valves per cylinder.We go through the expense to mod our engine for more power so why would you turn down the boost ? Get cams and move toward a better performance most are going to have to replace there intake cam in the end anyway with the soft OEM HPFP lobe wearing out the followers be proactive and kill 2 birds at once. LOL.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Why not match the K04 with the S3 cams like VAG design it? example S3 packaged? Or aftermarket cam. There a reason why Vag went through the expense to put cams in the S3 ( other than needing more lift on the HPFP lobe for more fueling) The earlier generation S3 with the 1.8T didnt have or need a cam because of the better low lift flow of the cylinder head with its 3 intake valves per cylinder.We go through the expense to mod our engine for more power so why would you turn down the boost ? Get cams and move toward a better performance most are going to have to replace there intake cam in the end anyway with the soft OEM HPFP lobe wearing out the followers be proactive and kill 2 birds at once. LOL.


As i've said in other posts also, what i say i have always confirmed from my own personal experiences.

I already have the S3 cams AND on top of that i have a fully ported cylinder head....My car also
continues to do that, so once again its not surging...

The sound might originally show up when the battery is disconnected or when colder weather is present,
cause the ECU has to readapt for the changes in boost.

Btw the Forge WG does reduce this noise possibly from better control of boost, but by doing so it also increases peak boost values.That is another dent in the "surge" theory.


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> I wanna see you laughing when compressor surge *destroys your engine* !!!!


but i thought u said it wasnt surge?


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

rracerguy717 said:


> Why not match the K04 with the S3 cams like VAG design it? example S3 packaged? Or aftermarket cam. There a reason why Vag went through the expense to put cams in the S3 ( other than needing more lift on the HPFP lobe for more fueling) The earlier generation S3 with the 1.8T didnt have or need a cam because of the better low lift flow of the cylinder head with its 3 intake valves per cylinder.We go through the expense to mod our engine for more power so why would you turn down the boost ? Get cams and move toward a better performance most are going to have to replace there intake cam in the end anyway with the soft OEM HPFP lobe wearing out the followers be proactive and kill 2 birds at once. LOL.


I have S3 cams, pistons and rods. :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> but i thought u said it wasnt surge?


LOL....so are you scared now ??............BOOOOMmmmm....


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> Well you see, there are many things "at stake" when you are baptizing something as "compressor surge".
> 
> With the knowledge that compressor surge is catastrophic for an engine, "light compressor surge" turns into
> turbulent flow....You don't wanna be opening Pandora's box now do you...
> ...


GolfRS, what do you say of me being under the specified boost at that point, if i am under the requested level of boost on vag-com, the ECU should not have to pull back to regulate boost as i am under requested not over.


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> LOL....so are you scared now ??............BOOOOMmmmm....


nope i was confused about your answer...are u being funny? sarcasm? 

and no im not scared, i know how to drive my car where it will not make that sound. 

I also drive like a sane person most of the time and stay out of boost.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> nope i was confused about your answer...are u being funny? sarcasm?
> 
> and no im not scared, *i know how to drive my car where it will not make that sound.
> 
> I also drive like a sane person most of the time and stay out of boost.*


Oh God...It cracks me up when people like you try to "put me in my place" and then go on making posts like that... :facepalm:

So yeah man, i don't know...APR says you are surging, surge breaks engines and turbos...hmmm lets see...

I think the best thing for you would be to remove that turbo and stay off boost FOR EVER.

I mean i'm pretty sure you know how "not to step on it" by now, but for God's sake !!! THAT NOISE !!!
It must be driving you crazy.... :banghead:

Gotta love the Vortex... :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

acespizee said:


> GolfRS, what do you say of me being under the specified boost at that point, if i am under the requested level of boost on vag-com, the ECU should not have to pull back to regulate boost as i am under requested not over.


I don't quite understand your question. 

Could you rephrase it please ?


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Oh God...*It cracks me up when people like you try to "put me in my place" and then go on making posts like that...* :facepalm:
> 
> So yeah man, i don't know...APR says you are surging, surge breaks engines and turbos...hmmm lets see...
> 
> ...


How exactly is that the case? If my transmission slips everytime i floor it, you think im going to floor it anymore? 

and 

I never said anything to put you in your place, i actually said (no offense), i wont take your advice for what you think the issue is. I dont personally know you or your background, so its just my personal way of living. Theres alot of bad advice on this wide world web. 


You seem to know whats up and all but when i have 4 answers for one issue from other professionals, how do i come to a scholarly conclusion?

How come this flutter happens at this situation when i hit 23ish psi? or 22psi? but when i hit 20 it doesnt? 

Forget everything else, answer that last question, its bugging me the most.


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> I think you should open a book and read what exactly compressor surge is...
> 
> There is no "light" or "fat free"...Either you have it, or you don't.


http://books.google.com/books?id=r1...reach surge line&pg=PA523#v=onepage&q&f=false

also please read.


----------



## joeyvdubGLI (Jan 12, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=r1...reach surge line&pg=PA523#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> also please read.


W-T-??.. dude.. just stop.. you're not helping at all. :banghead:

If you have an F-16 you're on on the wrong site. :laugh:


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

reading is fundamental...apparently u chose not to read it.

but really it does apply.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Why not match the K04 with the S3 cams like VAG design it? example S3 packaged? Or aftermarket cam. There a reason why Vag went through the expense to put cams in the S3 ( other than needing more lift on the HPFP lobe for more fueling) The earlier generation S3 with the 1.8T didnt have or need a cam because of the better low lift flow of the cylinder head with its 3 intake valves per cylinder.We go through the expense to mod our engine for more power so why would you turn down the boost ? Get cams and move toward a better performance most are going to have to replace there intake cam in the end anyway with the soft OEM HPFP lobe wearing out the followers be proactive and kill 2 birds at once. LOL.


I have S3 cams in my car and they made almost no difference at all.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

donjuan1jr said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=r1...reach surge line&pg=PA523#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> also please read.


Thank you sir!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> You seem to know whats up and all but when i have 4 answers for one issue from other professionals, how do i come to a scholarly conclusion?
> 
> How come this flutter happens at this situation when i hit 23ish psi? or 22psi? but when i hit 20 it doesnt?
> 
> Forget everything else, answer that last question, its bugging me the most.


The older TFSI ECU's could only "see" up to 1.55 bar of pressure, after which the ECU goes "blind"

APR has repeatedly bashed other software manufacturers on how "they" program the ECU to overboost
while they don't...Your case is simply another proof of APR's BS, and something i'm sure they won't like
"getting out".23 psi is 1.58 mbar and that is waaay over the ECU's max boost threshold.It's only normal the ECU is trying to equalize pressure, probably based on other sensors calculating load like the MAF.
20 psi on the other hand is 1.37 bar which the ECU can see, so boost control is much more predictive and accurate.So your question should be to APR and why your car is overboosting when (according to APR) it shouldn't....

And no overboosting beyond the MAP limit isn't "catastrophic".Many TFSI cars run that amount of boost with zero issues.So sure don't believe everything you hear...but at least listen to the right people.

How does that answer sound ??


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> I don't quite understand your question.
> 
> Could you rephrase it please ?


Sorry, i mean if the car is requesting 25 psi and i am only actually getting 23-24 psi, why would the n75 or whatever have to regulate the boost. :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you sir!



Taken from... 
*Automatic Control in Aerospace 2004*

By Alexander Nebylov


Holy Sh*t !!!!

Now APR is going to SPACE !!!!

The Sky is the limit.....


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> .
> 
> How does that answer sound ??


extremely well written. thank you. 

but, i just got a k04 on the way. Hopefully i dont have this issue with that lol.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

acespizee said:


> Sorry, i mean if the car is requesting 25 psi and i am only actually getting 23-24 psi, why would the n75 or whatever have to regulate the boost. :thumbup:


Read my answer above...

What you see in VAG COM is just the MAP limit, and comes up as a flat line.

The ECU bases load control on many sensors, and if you are going above the MAP threshold,
boost pressure can't be one of them.

Just enjoy your car man.All these worries are taking away all the fun.Relax....


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Taken from...
> *Automatic Control in Aerospace 2004*
> 
> By Alexander Nebylov
> ...



Well as funny as it is, the book is a scholarly article with information that applies. The application is different but in theory its all the same.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> extremely well written. thank you.
> 
> but, i just got a k04 on the way. Hopefully i dont have this issue with that lol.


It all depends what you want out of your car.

You can run low boost and still enjoy the car....just not that much....

The K04 is an amazing turbo.You should see what can be done when you push the limits..... :what:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> Well as funny as it is, the book is a scholarly article with information that applies. The application is different but in theory its all the same.


Seriously now...we are not disputing "terms" here.

Do you honestly believe the K03 (which you say you still have) can "outflow" the TFSI head ?

Cause that is what APR is trying to convince you of....:sly:


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

i mean, honestly i always thought no.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> APR has repeatedly bashed other software manufacturers on how "they" program the ECU to overboost while they don't...Your case is simply another proof of APR's BS, and something i'm sure they won't like
> "getting out".23 psi is 1.58 mbar and that is waaay over the ECU's max boost threshold.It's only normal the ECU is trying to equalize pressure, probably based on other sensors calculating load like the MAF.
> 20 psi on the other hand is 1.37 bar which the ECU can see, so boost control is much more predictive and accurate.So your question should be to APR and why your car is overboosting when (according to APR) it shouldn't....
> 
> ...


WTF? Reading "technical" information from GolfRS is like reading the results of a monkey smashing a keyboard. It simply makes no sense.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS, the question is simple:


*WHAT IS THE NOISE?*


You have *NOT* answered this question. 

All you have stated is "This is the ECU controlling an overboost".

So the question remains, *WHAT IS THE NOISE?*.

Answer the question.


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> Read my answer above...
> 
> What you see in VAG COM is just the MAP limit, and comes up as a flat line.
> 
> ...


I think i have map sensor from S3 aswell. You are right all the worries do take the fun away and the car is a beast. :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> GolfRS, the question is simple:
> 
> 
> *WHAT IS THE NOISE?*
> ...


I don't get paid to answer questions buddy.

You on the other hand ARE.

So please answer your customers why APR software is overboosting and how a tiny K03 turbo at 22 psi can overflow (surge) the TFSI engine.Those are valid questions coming from a customer of yours.It should be an interesting read and a break from you watching all those monkey cartoons....


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

acespizee said:


> I think i have map sensor from S3 aswell. You are right all the worries do take the fun away and the car is a beast. :thumbup:


If you mean you HAVE the S3 sensor INSTALLED, then there is your answer.I would suggest you remove it
IMMEDIATELY.The S3 sensor without properly remapping offsets the ECU and may even cause SERIOUS
engine damage....

See folks...things are unraveling nicely as we speak...... :sly:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> I don't get paid to answer questions buddy.
> 
> You on the other hand ARE.



That's what I expected to hear from you. No answer... Just more crap spewing from your mouth. It's good to see you are only here to argue, rather than give answers. 

The Greeks have told me stories about you which are quite funny. Enjoy your troll fest. 

:thumbup:


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Seriously now...we are not disputing "terms" here.


i missed this, and maybe u missed my point, but arin caught it. 

You said there was no "fat free" surge, either u have it or not. The pic arin posted was my exact point.

the vid u posted earlier is the most widespread example of the worst kind of surge.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> That's what I expected to hear from you. No answer... Just more crap spewing from your mouth. It's good to see you are only here to argue, rather than give answers.
> 
> The Greeks have told me stories about you which are quite funny. Enjoy your troll fest.
> 
> :thumbup:


So why aren't YOU responding then ?

How does it look to others that an APR sales rep (albeit with minimal technical knowledge),
fails to answer important questions about the software he is selling, and prefers to talk trash to
cover his insufficiency ?Is this why you frequent the forums ?And getting paid for that too ?
Well there goes "human resources"...

I only feel sorry for your clients that have to read stuff like that from you (and i'm guessing APR since you are not a simple forum member but a "professional" (sorry i giggled..)

As for "the Greeks" you are referring to, i'm guessing you mean the Greek APR dealer ??
Well i can tell you the only contact i've had with them was to replace my first crap APR downpipe
that was so badly made it cracked at the flex joint.Even then they told me "i had installed it wrong", and
that APR was not to blame...LOL...Funny enough those guys have also limited technical knowledge, so i guess hiring standards at APR are at a pretty low point... :facepalm:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

donjuan1jr said:


> i missed this, and maybe u missed my point, but arin caught it.
> 
> You said there was no "fat free" surge, either u have it or not. The pic arin posted was my exact point.
> 
> the vid u posted earlier is the most widespread example of the worst kind of surge.


I see...Well then my friend if you are willing to except what your company (APR) is telling you
your car is surging i would be more worried about your engine's condition and expecting an
explanation than worrying about the "variations of surging" and technical terms.

Are you sure your turbo isn't going to blow up ?? 

I mean light or not, surging is BAAAD, and if you keep having it...it is bound to damage your engine...No ??


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> I see...Well then my friend if you are willing to except what your company (APR) is telling you
> your car is surging i would be more worried about your engine's condition and expecting an
> explanation than worrying about the "variations of surging" and technical terms.


nope, my priorities arent the norm.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> I see...Well then my friend if you are willing to except what your company (APR) is telling you
> your car is surging i would be more worried about your engine's condition and expecting an
> explanation than worrying about the "variations of surging" and technical terms.
> 
> ...


The TT-S surges from the factory. :thumbup:


----------



## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> The TT-S surges from the factory. :thumbup:


NO ARIN...hes already stated that how could vw have oem vehicles driving around with that!!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> The TT-S surges from the factory. :thumbup:


In APR's world, factory cars SURGE.... 










I pity your customers.... :facepalm:


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> If you mean you HAVE the S3 sensor INSTALLED, then there is your answer.I would suggest you remove it
> IMMEDIATELY.The S3 sensor without properly remapping offsets the ECU and may even cause SERIOUS
> engine damage....
> 
> See folks...things are unraveling nicely as we speak...... :sly:


No mate, sensor scaling has been done from revo at my request while they had my car as i wanted exactly what the S3 guys are working with. So nothing wrong there and no my boost on vag-com does not flat line after 22 psi or after the stock sensor can not read anymore. 

My car was not mapped at a Revo agent, it was done by Revo UK.

So there is no problem with me running that sensor.

On to the next one. :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

acespizee said:


> No mate, sensor scaling has been done from revo at my request while they had my car as i wanted exactly what the S3 guys are working with. So nothing wrong there and no my boost on vag-com does not flat line after 22 psi or after the stock sensor can not read anymore.
> 
> My car was not mapped at a Revo agent, it was done by Revo UK.
> 
> ...


Well there is no "next one"...I already told you what is going on.

Good job on the rescaling though.Don't know if it offers any advantages but if you hadn't done that
there would definitely be an issue there.


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> Well there is no "next one"...I already told you what is going on.
> 
> Good job on the rescaling though.Don't know if it offers any advantages but if you hadn't done that
> there would definitely be an issue there.


:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

Good grief! If only we could properly channel everyone's anger. I do not consider myself an expert at anything and surge is not excluded from that. However, from my brief overview of these three pages of posts there's unquestionably some incorrect information. I'll try to address some and if anyone has a specific question I’ll try to answer. If I do not know the answer I'll humbly admit that.

1.) The K03 does not outflow the factory head. If you make this assumption from things that have been said then you do not clearly understand what surge is. Simply put, compressor surge is when the compressor cannot maintain a specific boost pressure at a given mass air flow. If you look at and understand a compressor map this is evident. MAF increases with rpm, we all know this. So, if you make 20psi at 6,000rpm on a 2.0T then you should have plenty of MAF to get you inside the compressor map of most every turbocharger spoken of for these engines. However, if you make 20psi at 1,000rpm compressor surge is inevitable because MAF is inherently low at 1,000rpm thanks to physics. Back on topic, K03s spool early and because of this have the ability, under the right circumstance, to go left of their surge line. At this low rpm you're never going to "outflow" your head. The only thing that would help in this instance is a larger displacement engine (or in some cases cams can help some). This would cause MAF to go down at a given pressure and therefore put the compressor back inside its map.

2.) There are absolutely different severities of surge! TT-S's as already mentioned can and do surge stock. This is not a lie. Though the surge is very mild it is audible and evident in MAF under the right condition. Keep in mind that we have nothing to gain by fabricating such a lie. In fact, K04 compressor surge is disappointing to us all because it gives us very little headroom to increase torque. This is why TT-S, S3, and Golf R customers are often times disappointed with stage 1 because they were expecting the same increase in torque they got with their Stage 1 GTI.

3.) We do clip boost in several of our files due to surge when our competitors do not. Am I telling you their software is going to destroy your turbo, absolutely not. We simply choose to avoid the risk and the annoyance of hearing surge every time you go WOT through the 3k-4krpm range.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

I have run across the exact same issue as the op when trying to adjust the wastegate actuator of my K04. For some time since I got the giac high-output remap, I have had logs showing lower actual boost then specified until it reaches 5k rpm. On the dyno, it showed as a huge loss of torque and power until around 5k rpm. While making adjustments to the wastegate actuator to correct this problem, we went too far with the first adjustment when trying to set the cracking pressure at 7.5 psi. I took it out for a test run and did a 3rd gear pull from 2k rpm to red line. It had an amazing amount of power and got into boost really nicely. When the boost got over 20 psi and under 25 psi, and beginning at around 3k rpm, my boost gauge needle began to flutter badly. When the rpm was closing in on 5k rpm the flutter had stopped. But, then the boost peaked at 27 psi, and held 22 to 23 psi to red-line. I took it back in and onto the rack and let it cool down. Previously we moved the wastegate arm approximately 5/8 in. towards the actuator, so we backed it off nearly half that. The flutter went away and it felt a bit stronger than it was originally. Later, I went to do a couple of logs then took a look comparing this new log to one done back in May. I still have lower than specified boost early into boost. And at that time my turbo is working at 100% in the duty cycle like in the May logs. Around 3k rpm the boost is nearly caught up with specified, but still lagging 200 to 300 mbar behind specified as well as the May logs. But it is running about 2 psi stronger than the May logs show. After 5200 rpm it is caught up and 2 psi stronger than in May. So, I am going to put it back on the rack and adjust it again towards the actuator, but just not as far as the first adjustment that put the boost up to 27 psi and caused the flutter with the over boost. Hopefully this sheds some light on over boost causing flutter. Whether or not all the systems that are tied together are rapidly shutting down creating that flutter effect because it doesn't like getting too much boost or actually turbulence, I don't know. But I am pretty sure it is due to over boost, and that fine tuning the actuator can get the actual boost to match specified to maximize K04 performance.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

ROH ECHT said:


> I have run across the exact same issue as the op when trying to adjust the wastegate actuator of my K04. For some time since I got the giac high-output remap, I have had logs showing lower actual boost then specified until it reaches 5k rpm. On the dyno, it showed as a huge loss of torque and power until around 5k rpm. While making adjustments to the wastegate actuator to correct this problem, we went too far with the first adjustment when trying to set the cracking pressure at 7.5 psi. I took it out for a test run and did a 3rd gear pull from 2k rpm to red line. It had an amazing amount of power and got into boost really nicely. When the boost got over 20 psi and under 25 psi, and beginning at around 3k rpm, my boost gauge needle began to flutter badly. When the rpm was closing in on 5k rpm the flutter had stopped. But, then the boost peaked at 27 psi, and held 22 to 23 psi to red-line. I took it back in and onto the rack and let it cool down. Previously we moved the wastegate arm approximately 5/8 in. towards the actuator, so we backed it off nearly half that. The flutter went away and it felt a bit stronger than it was originally. Later, I went to do a couple of logs then took a look comparing this new log to one done back in May. I still have lower than specified boost early into boost. And at that time my turbo is working at 100% in the duty cycle like in the May logs. Around 3k rpm the boost is nearly caught up with specified, but still lagging 200 to 300 mbar behind specified as well as the May logs. But it is running about 2 psi stronger than the May logs show. After 5200 rpm it is caught up and 2 psi stronger than in May. So, I am going to put it back on the rack and adjust it again towards the actuator, but just not as far as the first adjustment that put the boost up to 27 psi and caused the flutter with the over boost. Hopefully this sheds some light on over boost causing flutter. Whether or not all the systems that are tied together are rapidly shutting down creating that flutter effect because it doesn't like getting too much boost or actually turbulence, I don't know. But I am pretty sure it is due to over boost, and that fine tuning the actuator can get the actual boost to match specified to maximize K04 performance.


How much boost was the car kicking out in 3-4k rpm range when you got flutter to dissapear ? I thought anything over 20psi before 3.5k rpm would cause flutter ?


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

acespizee said:


> How much boost was the car kicking out in 3-4k rpm range when you got flutter to dissapear ? I thought anything over 20psi before 3.5k rpm would cause flutter ?


I'm guessing it was around 22-23psi, because the needle was bouncing from 20psi to 25 psi. After that it went up to 26-27psi and then back to 22-23psi to red-line.


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## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

ROH ECHT said:


> I'm guessing it was around 22-23psi, because the needle was bouncing from 20psi to 25 psi. After that it went up to 26-27psi and then back to 22-23psi to red-line.


You said you got flutter and boost needle bouncing to dissapear in the mid rpm range, but now your saying it was bouncing. 

How much boost was the car kicking out in 3-4k rpm range when you got flutter to dissapear ? I thought anything over 20psi before 3.5k rpm would cause flutter ? So basically, no boost needle bouncing. :thumbup:


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

acespizee said:


> You said you got flutter and boost needle bouncing to dissapear in the mid rpm range, but now your saying it was bouncing.
> How much boost was the car kicking out in 3-4k rpm range when you got flutter to dissapear ? I thought anything over 20psi before 3.5k rpm would cause flutter ? So basically, no boost needle bouncing. :thumbup:


The runs went like this;

Started at 2000rpm.
Boost came on really quick and before 3000 rpm (+/- ) the boost was between 20 and 25 psi and the needle was bouncing in the gauge, plus I could hear it.
It bounced briefly (didn't notice the exact rpm's), the bouncing stopped and the boost rose to 27 psi.
Before 5000rpm the boost settled from 27 to 22 or 23 psi until it red-lined.

What I am saying is that the boost flutter happened from around the late 2000rpm range to the early 4000 rpm range. Most likely in the early 3000 rpm range. But I can't give the exact rpm's as I was watching the boost gauge mostly and occasionally glancing at the tach-o.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm getting closer to matched boost. Just made another adjustment to the waste-gate actuator on Friday and logged it Sunday. Resulting in;

rpm.....specified....actual

2200.....2550.......1190
2400.....2550.......1400
2600.....2550.......1710
2800.....2550.......2000
3000.....2550.......2300
3200.....2520.......2460
3500.....2510.......2520
4000.....2430.......2500
4500.....2430.......2440
5000.....2350.......2420
5500.....2300.......2380
6000.....2170.......2330
6500.....2160.......2280
6880.....2160.......2260

I'm down to maybe 1 or 2 more fine adjustments to pick up the lower rpm boost. 1 or 2 mm more should do it. So far the boost "flutter" hasn't shown itself again.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ROH ECHT said:


> I'm getting closer to matched boost. Just made another adjustment to the waste-gate actuator on Friday and logged it Sunday. Resulting in;
> 
> rpm.....specified....actual
> 
> ...


As i said to you in the other forum, the mismatch in the low revs is cause of the turbo trying to spool.
While it might help a bit tightening more, you are already getting overboost in the upper revs.
The best thing would be to ask GIAC for an update file with higher specified boost, and
depending in what duty cycle you get in the lower revs, possible increase that too to help
the turbo spool....


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> As i said to you in the other forum, the mismatch in the low revs is cause of the turbo trying to spool.
> While it might help a bit tightening more, you are already getting overboost in the upper revs.
> The best thing would be to ask GIAC for an update file with higher specified boost, and
> depending in what duty cycle you get in the lower revs, possible increase that too to help
> the turbo spool....


Unfortunately the duty cycle is running 98% up to 2800rpm. Then drops under 70% by 3000rpm. Runs around 55% the rest of the pull. Ilie at GIAC believes the lower boost will come on with as little as 1/4 turn of the inside nut. It may also take more, but he has seen that small an adjustment finally bring the boost up.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ROH ECHT said:


> Unfortunately the duty cycle is running 98% up to 2800rpm. Then drops under 70% by 3000rpm. Runs around 55% the rest of the pull. Ilie at GIAC believes the lower boost will come on with as little as 1/4 turn of the inside nut. It may also take more, but he has seen that small an adjustment finally bring the boost up.


I can tell you from experience turning the wg WILL give you more down low boost and torque.
But the software has to support it.When i was running the Revo official release software (instead
of the first beta i was running at first) the ecu was actually cutting boost in the lower revs to
prevent overboosting, so whatever i did to the wg, it had no effect.My boost stayed below
2550 bar (map sensor limit).Seeing though it actually lets you overboost in the upper revs
there is hope, so you can try it, and if need be return it to the previous position.
Trust me, wastegate tightening can be sweet, so don't over do it...


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> Seeing though it actually lets you overboost in the upper revs
> there is hope, so you can try it, and if need be return it to the previous position.
> Trust me, wastegate tightening can be sweet, so don't over do it...


Sounds like the remap will be ok with it, as Ilie at giac went through this as well. He says the actual in his is above spec. in the higher rpm's and his runs sweet. But I will ask him about this again.
And yes, when I made that 1st adjustment that gave me 27psi....WOW!, the thing really moved. I don't want to have that much and would surely stop adjusting when I get the lower rpm boost to match.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ROH ECHT said:


> Sounds like the remap will be ok with it, as Ilie at giac went through this as well. He says the actual in his is above spec. in the higher rpm's and his runs sweet. But I will ask him about this again.
> And yes, when I made that 1st adjustment that gave me 27psi....WOW!, the thing really moved. I don't want to have that much and would surely stop adjusting when I get the lower rpm boost to match.



I have to say though i am against all this "set your wastegate" thing also being encouraged
by your software tuner.Especially if you are on OEM wastegate, it should be set at factory
setting and have the tuner change the software to compensate (which he normally shouldn't have
to do since it's WRITTEN for the factory setting.But it's your call.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

I have always felt the problem possibly lies with the tune since the problem seemed to instantly show up with the high output remap where I didn't have a problem with my original K04 remap. But also, I don't mind throwing a "Band-aid" at the issue if it fixes it. I'm definitely learning more about all this, so that's OK by me. GIAC told me that they have also been trying to have AWE calibrate the waste-gate cracking pressure to 7.5 psi before they are shipped out. 

And today;
we adjusted the w/g another 2mm. After I left the shop and got somewhere I could do a 3rd gear pull, I found out that we are going to need to make smaller adjustments now. The boost shot up instantly to 30 psi (I know, I couldn't believe that I just pegged the boost gauge). I was shocked because I thought we hadn't exceeded the point where we had adjusted and resulted in 27 psi with the very 1st adjustment. But I guess we did. So tomorrow we're backing off. Probably going to stick with 1/2 turn adjustments from now until it's correct. I definitely don't want to blow the head through the hood, LOL.


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