# A3/S3 Cabriolet Spy Shots & News



## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

So we got the first pics of a cabriolet body style today. It's an S3 from the looks of it. Read more about it and see more pics HERE: http://fourtitude.com/news/audi-rum...t-mule-reveals-shape-of-new-droptop-a3-range/


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Mixed emotion...
More B6 then B5 now...that's when the A4 went downhill...would have liked to have seen a hard top like the Eos vs rag top. Weight? Yes...but...


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## Exousia (Feb 22, 2010)

Something upsets me about this being sold in the US and not the 3-door hatch.

It's the A3 sportback for me though. 2.0 TFSI, Glacier White, highest trim. Gotta have those LED headlights.

Although the S3 is interesting-does anybody have and US pricing and fuel economy guesses for the coming S3 models? We probably won't get a S3 sportback here but just curious...


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

I expect that a nice S3 will go for about $50,000

Travis posted fuel numbers somewhere.....thinking it was something like 23/30


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Exousia said:


> Something upsets me about this being sold in the US and not the 3-door hatch.


IMO, this part says it all:


> Why the change? For one, the car is bound for America where the similarly shaped A5 and S5 Cabriolets are already a hit and not quite as quirky as the car’s hatchback-based predecessor. That all seems like a solid move for a more *general acceptance *of the car by consumers worldwide.


It's why Subaru dropped the Legacy GT wagon and is making their line-up more mainstream, less funky, less sporty and more crossover-y. It's always why Audi dropped regular Avants here gave us the allroad and why we'll see more Q's.

General acceptance means more $ale$. After 12 years in a '99 Outback, a boring test drive in a 2011 Outback is why my wife started looking at the Q5.

-Dennis


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Cyncris said:


> I expect that a nice S3 will go for about $50,000
> 
> Travis posted fuel numbers somewhere.....thinking it was something like 23/30


While the sky is the limit, I think $50k for an S3 in either sedan or droptop format is probably high. 

The big question on pricing is how Audi wants to position the A3 in the United States: a value product (think in terms of Acura packaging) or a premium offering? Based on recent comments from Scott Keogh I tend to think they're aiming to price the A3 on the higher side of the scale. Combined with the production cost reductions (some 20% less over the 8P) this means we'll likely see a higher amount of standard content. 

Were I in Audi's marketing department I would be positioning the A3 as a lifestyle/alternative to the A4, similar to how the A5 Sportback is an alternative to the A4 and A5 in Europe (style over function). This helps undercut arguments pitting the A3 versus the A4 based solely on price. 

The current 8P starts at $28k in Premium 6MT 2.0TFSI trim. Based on how the Euro A3 and new MK 7 Golf are being packaged, it seems a lot more standard content is being offered than ever before. This is a very good thing. I think that Audi of America is going to push to make the A3 more premium and more special, and to that end I would not be surprised to see them push the base price up to between $30-$33k. 

BMW's 1-series coupe starts at $33,500. If Audi can offer a higher level of content in their four door configuration it should be very easy to bleed sales of the 1 and 3 series, plus they avoid diluting the brand. Compared to Daimler and BMW Audi has a major advantage in economies of scale. 

No doubt the A3 will also cannibalize some A4 sales, but remember that the B9 A4 should be introduced sometime next year and will likely move further up-market.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Cyncris said:


> I expect that a nice S3 will go for about $50,000


That seems quite high.

Consider that all the S-models already include "Premium Plus" as the base trim available. The current S4 is $47,600, and S5 is $50,900. 

An S3 should be starting in the mid-low $40s, and pegging out at $50k in prestige trim with all the bells. I cant imagine they would sell many at that level at all.

Audi needs to be careful, as when you are playing in this price range, the vasy majority of the market still equates vehicle size with value, unless you are talking ultra high perfromance which the S3 will certainly not provide if its still based on the EA888 engine.



Dennis M said:


> After 12 years in a '99 Outback, a boring test drive in a 2011 Outback is why my wife started looking at the Q5.


Ditto with my wife, we got rid of her 04 forester and she looked at the Q5, but no manual or diesel.


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## Exousia (Feb 22, 2010)

Yeah, I think 50k for the S3 is going to be a tough sell. Seems like the 39-45k range is going to fit better for them.

I'm pretty excited about the sportback, but I'm curious about how the options that will be available and their costs- 37K for a A3 Sportback 2.0TFSI with Nav, Led headlights, and some small other bells and whistles(keyless, wheels) is the sweet spot for me. 

Can't wait to see those pricing sheets...


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

ChrisFu said:


> That seems quite high.
> 
> Consider that all the S-models already include "Premium Plus" as the base trim available. The current S4 is $47,600, and S5 is $50,900.
> 
> An S3 should be starting in the mid-low $40s, and pegging out at $50k in prestige trim with all the bells. I cant imagine they would sell many at that level at all.


What he said.


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

It doesn't seem high to me at all.....look at how the other cars are priced.
While the current A3 starts at $27,200...who would want one at that price? Base model Audi's are nothing that much of anyone would want.....I doubt more than 2-3 or sold that way each year.
A reasonably equipped A3 (current model) is about $39,400. More than $12,000 over base. and if you load it up, it is over $42,000.

The current S models are:
Model - Base price - Reasonably equipped - loaded
TTS __ $47,350 ______ $52,600 ______ $53,090
S4 ___ $47,600 _____ $57,300 _______ $65,820
S5 ___ $50,900 _____ $61,095 _______$69,820

So to get a new model S3 with:
LED headlights
Drive select
Nav
4G WiFi hotspot
a color other than white, black or red
Adaptive dampening suspension
sport diff (if offered)
Sport package

I don't see how it can't be $50,000
While they may start at $45,000 or so......I can't see anyone wanting a base model. That person would probably be alot happier by going with VW and getting a golf R that is loaded.

I would be estatic if they turn out to be less than what I predict....but I am planning on 50k list on something that is reasonably equiped.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Cyncris said:


> It doesn't seem high to me at all.....look at how the other cars are priced.
> While the current A3 starts at $27,200...who would want one at that price? Base model Audi's are nothing that much of anyone would want.....I doubt more than 2-3 or sold that way each year.
> A reasonably equipped A3 (current model) is about $39,400. More than $12,000 over base. and if you load it up, it is over $42,000.
> 
> ...


I m not sure if you are joking...

The S3 will likely be in around $37-40,000 starting US, I can see the RS3 being around $50,000 US though. This will price it about $5,000 higher then a Golf R, just as we always have seen...

Keep in mind too, you can go through ANY model of car from ANY manufacture, and I would like someone to show me where the wagon is ever cheaper then a sedan. New platform? Yes, but if they price a S3 into the $50's it will be an absolute joke.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

While I won't argue with your logic there Cyncris, your suggestions definitely make sense.
That said, the economics of the MQB A3 are substantially different than for the 8P. A little birdy told me last year that the sweet spot for A3 sales has been about $34k: 2.0TFSI S-Tronic, Premium Plus with Convenience. Believe it or not, the number of poverty-spec A3s sold is a lot higher than most would believe. 

My guess is that the only quattro configuration we're going to get, at least initially, will come from the S3. The rest (again, initially) will be FWD. 

This all said, right now my thinking is that Audi will start base prices slightly higher than they currently are ($30k and up), but due to the economics of MQB will be able to offer higher content to compensate for the higher price. In other words: go shop your BMW 1 and Merc CLA - but the Audi will be a much better value among the German brands. 




Cyncris said:


> It doesn't seem high to me at all.....look at how the other cars are priced.
> While the current A3 starts at $27,200...who would want one at that price? Base model Audi's are nothing that much of anyone would want.....I doubt more than 2-3 or sold that way each year.
> A reasonably equipped A3 (current model) is about $39,400. More than $12,000 over base. and if you load it up, it is over $42,000.
> 
> ...


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

Rudy_H said:


> I m not sure if you are joking...
> 
> The S3 will likely be in around $37-40,000 starting US, I can see the RS3 being around $50,000 US though. This will price it about $5,000 higher then a Golf R, just as we always have seen...
> 
> Keep in mind too, you can go through ANY model of car from ANY manufacture, and I would like someone to show me where the wagon is ever cheaper then a sedan. New platform? Yes, but if they price a S3 into the $50's it will be an absolute joke.


Not joking at all. If the current A3 not S3 is almost $40k once you get it reasonably equipped, the S models are anywhere from 5k -10k more than thier similarly equipped A counterparts and this S model is supposed to have lots of goodies on it that were previously saved for only the A/S 6, 7, & 8....I am expecting a price tag to match.

A decent A4 goes for $43,000. I would be floored if they put out a S3 with 100 more HP, nearly 800lbs lighter with more tech for less money.

I hope I am wrong.....but not planning on it.


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## Exousia (Feb 22, 2010)

Travis Grundke said:


> Believe it or not, the number of poverty-spec A3s sold is a lot higher than most would believe.
> 
> My guess is that the only quattro configuration we're going to get, at least initially, will come from the S3. The rest (again, initially) will be FWD.


I can second this. I have heard multiple times from my local Audi dealer that they sold far more FWD A3's here in San Antonio and TX in general that one would think. 

I would hope that Audi isn't dense enough to not sell a sportback in quattro config at launch here. In fact, I really can't see the launch of the MQB A3 or S3 going without quattro stateside. This isn't the CLA we're talking about here: I have not seen the A3 billed or noted as a FWD primary platform. Quattro is a core competency for Audi, can't seem them heading the sedan or US launch without it. 

Not saying there won't be FWD A3s, but quattro is suppose to be available across the board come this Spring in Europe, yeah? And if we're talking a late summer/fall launch in the US...


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Cyncris said:


> Not joking at all. If the current A3 not S3 is almost $40k once you get it reasonably equipped, the S models are anywhere from 5k -10k more than thier similarly equipped A counterparts and this S model is supposed to have lots of goodies on it that were previously saved for only the A/S 6, 7, & 8....I am expecting a price tag to match.
> 
> A decent A4 goes for $43,000. I would be floored if they put out a S3 with 100 more HP, nearly 800lbs lighter with more tech for less money.
> 
> I hope I am wrong.....but not planning on it.


What about a S4 vs A6? or A7? or A8? Same deal as to why the S3 will be priced under a S4 by a fair margin...

If Audi UK is pricing a RS3 the same as a S4, where do you think the current S3 sits?

I can guarantee too the S3 won't see 300 hp in North America, maybe 280 hp as we have seen already on factory requests that Travis posted because of emissions. I think the 800 lbs is about right now difference between S3 and S4. The front track A3 I found for 2014 was coming in around 2,600 lbs where the A4 is 3500 lbs for the front track...rumour is of course the 2015 A4 is going MLB (MQB except longitudinal)


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Rudy_H said:


> What about a S4 vs A6? or A7? or A8? Same deal as to why the S3 will be priced under a S4 by a fair margin...
> 
> If Audi UK is pricing a RS3 the same as a S4, where do you think the current S3 sits?
> 
> I can guarantee too the S3 won't see 300 hp in North America, maybe 280 hp as we have seen already on factory requests that Travis posted because of emissions. I think the 800 lbs is about right now difference between S3 and S4. The front track A3 I found for 2014 was coming in around 2,600 lbs where the A4 is 3500 lbs for the front track...rumour is of course the 2015 A4 is going MLB (MQB except longitudinal)


A few things:

1. Be very careful about market pricing. While Audi can sell $42,000 (pardon me: E42.000) A3s in the UK and on the continent, the North American market probably won't permit that...yet.

2. Pricing is market-specific, also accounting for things like currency fluctuations and VAT. Case in point, go spec out a loaded A3 2.0TDI on the German site. It will come to something like E42.000, including 20% VAT. Remove the VAT and you're down to E33.600. Of course, account for currency differences and you're back up to around $40k. Still, the question is: will the US market afford that? Probably not.

3. Manufacture of the A3 sedan is going to take place initially in Gyor, Hungary. Gyor is no longer just an assembly plant, the almost-finished addition includes a press shop, paint shop, etc. so that it will be a complete end-to-end manufacturing site, not just assembly. The cost savings versus building in Ingolstadt are not insignificant, and considering the car is primarily for export it makes sense to be assembling in Hungary for the US market. This may also be why we're going to pay a higher premium for the Sportback, assuming it does come to the US and assuming manufacture remains in Ingolstadt. Audi has stated that the Sportback will likely appear in 'alternative powertrain' format, which translates to higher profit margins. They may be making this powertrain move on the Sportback because they know wagon fans will pay a premium, and the premium they can charge with alt-powertrain options is even higher. This will help offset the higher production and federalization costs.

4. The MQB architecture affords cost reductions of around 20% over the old 8P A3. This gives Audi significantly more room to play with packaging and pricing for the MQB vehicles. 

5. Not to pick nits, but the A4 (B8)is already on the MLB platform. The forthcoming B9 is rumored to be based on the MLB-Evo architecture (I believe George has published some intel on this recently) which will further reduce weight.

Mercedes has their CLA pricing out for the Eurospec vehicles as of yesterday. It's in-line with what Audi is charging for the A3 in Europe. My guess is that Audi is playing cat-and-mouse in timing the sedan's specifications and pricing based on what Daimler throws down. Now that cat is out of the bag, let's see what Audi will offer us. My hope is that we get a higher level of content.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Cyncris said:


> Not joking at all. If the current A3 not S3 is almost $40k once you get it reasonably equipped


I think it's semantics. The volume sellers are the "reasonably equipped" Premium Plus trim on the A models.

S models include Premium Plus as the base config. Therefore an S model is "reasonably equipped" off the bat.

I would venture a guess to say that the vast bulk of purchases dont include 6-10k of options on top of the Premium Plus packages.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Cyncris said:


> A decent A4 goes for $43,000. I would be floored if they put out a S3 with 100 more HP, nearly 800lbs lighter with more tech for less money.



Well, I understand where you're coming from with that, but it is likely that Audi sees the MQB A3 as its proposition to get people into the brand at an earlier stage in life. To that, they're likely to position the A3 in such a way that it appeals to a different demographic than the traditional A4 buyer. The majority of A4 buyers will choose quattro - the majority of A3s sold will be FWD. 

Also, while the A3 is bringing loads of new infotainment technology to the table, the forthcoming B9 A4 will no doubt join the club within the next 18 months. The A3/S3 will not offer the Sport Differential and quattro will be Haldex versus whatever full-time system will be employed by the B9 A4. 

Finally, S buyers tend to be a certain specific market. What I mean by that is that if I took my parents into an Audi dealership and put them into an S4 versus an A4, I can guarantee you that they would pick the A4 over the S. Even if there were an S3 at say $43,000, I can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't be interested in that and would take the A4 over it. 

The lines are blurring between models - think of the A5 Sportback as a template for some of the niches and overlaps that we're going to increasingly see.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Travis Grundke said:


> The A3/S3 will not offer the Sport Differential and quattro will be Haldex versus whatever full-time system will be employed by the B9 A4.


Is this confirmed for S3 or RS3...Haldex only with no full-time system?


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

As per your reply to mine, right, I meant the fact if they are already selling a RS3 for the price of a S4. The current RS3 would be a mammoth steal.

However, if they price the S3 within $2-3g's of a S4, forget that, I will get a S4 in a second. I don't care if it's a bigger car, it's got the displacement advantage and overall comfort, better fit and finish.



Travis Grundke said:


> Finally, S buyers tend to be a certain specific market. What I mean by that is that if I took my parents into an Audi dealership and put them into an S4 versus an A4, I can guarantee you that they would pick the A4 over the S. Even if there were an S3 at say $43,000, I can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't be interested in that and would take the A4 over it.


Now mind you...it's on it's way out...however...STi Limited
http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza-wrx/index.html

This will be likely where the bottom end S3 will sit IMHO. Similar size, similar everything, except the STi gives way to performance, where the S3 takes it in other categories to make up the difference (we would hope anyway)


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

But the STi has full time AWD and LSDs. As alluded to in my previous posting, if the S3/RS3 sticks with Haldex, it will be much less suitable of a "luxury step up from a Subaru", which I think is a sizable market (myself included).


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

ChrisFu said:


> Is this confirmed for S3 or RS3...Haldex only with no full-time system?


I'm trying to avoid starting a "which AWD system is better" battle, but generally speaking, transverse mounted cars from Audi only employ Haldex, and IIRC it is not full time. I'll leave that to someone more knowledgeable than me on the subject to clarify.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Rudy_H said:


> As per your reply to mine, right, I meant the fact if they are already selling a RS3 for the price of a S4. The current RS3 would be a mammoth steal.
> 
> However, if they price the S3 within $2-3g's of a S4, forget that, I will get a S4 in a second. I don't care if it's a bigger car, it's got the displacement advantage and overall comfort, better fit and finish.


Ah. If we're speaking RS models, then I could see that closer to $50 for sure. 

Since S-model buyers tend to be much better educated and brand aware I would not expect an S3 to come in quite so close to an S4: many would make the same calculation as you.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

ChrisFu said:


> But the STi has full time AWD and LSDs. As alluded to in my previous posting, if the S3/RS3 sticks with Haldex, it will be much less suitable of a "luxury step up from a Subaru", which I think is a sizable market (myself included).


Chris, I think you give too much credit to the car buying public at large. 

Truth is, all people hear is: "it's all wheel drive". They don't care if it's Torsen or Haldex, nor the intricacies therein. This is the same reason why Merc and BMW have / are introducing FWD platforms - they know that the market they're trying to attract with these cars really doesn't care about the drive train so much as the brand and the creature comforts. 

While I really wish my A3 were a quattro variant I really don't feel like I have less of an Audi than if it did.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

To the point of packaging and pricing, see the attached January 2013 pricing guide from Audi Ireland as an example. Packing is different for AudiIE than it is for AudiUK, DE, FR, ES, etc. There's a lot of optional equipment that come stateside, will be standard (ie: cruise control), plus other equipment that is standard in some versions that likely will not make it to the US on standard spec cars (ie: lane assist, drive select, etc.). 

This is another way in which Audi will differentiate the A3 from other other models in the lineup: by excluding them from the US options list. Things like tilting/folding side mirrors, rear camera, acoustic rear parking sensor, high beam assist, lane change assist, headlight washers, adaptive cruise, etc. 

Out of the options list I would bet that Audi will package and push things like the Phone Box and Audi Connect. Likewise, things like full LED headlamps will probably make the cut for the US, owing to their very distinctive nature. 

Guide is available here: http://www.audi.ie/etc/medialib/ngw...r.0071.File.pdf/newa3_product_guidemy12v3.pdf


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Travis Grundke said:


> I'm trying to avoid starting a "which AWD system is better" battle, but generally speaking, transverse mounted cars from Audi only employ Haldex, and IIRC it is not full time. I'll leave that to someone more knowledgeable than me on the subject to clarify.


Given that VW already has XDS electronic torque vectoring in their transverse engined cars, will they at least put that on the A3's FWD and quattro cars? Same with the mechanical LSD announced by VW..shoudn't that also be on the A3?

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/09/2014-volkswagen-gti-gets-power-package-real-lsd.html


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