# 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's - Dyno updates



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's*

Here's my car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbxMZeSV-Ao


_Modified by WolfGTI at 9:53 PM 4-8-2007_


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

but is it fast?


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_but is it fast?

Umm forgive me but the rationale of your question is ?


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

Very cool


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurotrashrabbit* »_Very cool









Thanks.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Umm forgive me but the rationale of your question is ?


First hooks? I want to know how much power it makes.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_

First hooks? I want to know how much power it makes. 

Once it's tuned and dynoed I'll post up. This isn't a quest for all out #'s for me.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

Nice build! Motor sounds great. Seems to rev well for the long rod aba. Easily pulls to 7500 (what's the rev limit?). You can see the benefit of the long rod/big discplacement as it seems quite torquey even by 3k. 
Very nice build. Can't wait until I get mine done!!! Please post more in-car vids as I find them most interesting when getting a real feel for how a motor rev's/pulls.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Well done!


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## VRT (Dec 8, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (Fast929)*

cut the tread on your wheel. It was driving me crazy


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (VRT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRT* »_cut the tread on your wheel. It was driving me crazy

Lol - wheels is getting replaced


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## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

pics of the setup? sounds sweet!


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (zornig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zornig* »_pics of the setup? sounds sweet!

Here you go. Thanks for the compliment.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

I see two SBC valve cover breathers in use.


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## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
Here you go. Thanks for the compliment.









tits


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (zornig)*

curiouse to see some HP numbers and see what the torque curve looks like


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_curiouse to see some HP numbers and see what the torque curve looks like









Made 172whp with the smaller TB's and a 'stock' manifold setup. I'm sure it's more with a proper header and the bigger throttles. 
I don't believe the alternator bracket is still holding up


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (VWralley)*

It definitely breathes better - I went from this stock European 20v manifold.








to this


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

what is the specs on the motor? any port work, cams?


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (VWralley)*

Head - stock AEB 20v head (unported) with Supertech valvetrain.
Cams - Kent cams 293degree intake 9.65mm lift / 295 degree exhaust 11.00 mm lift
Pistons 12:1 forged JE 20v pistons
Rods - Arrow precision forged balanced rods
Crank - Eurospecsport forged 4340 lightened, knife edged race crank
ITB's - 48mm Jenvey TH series
Block - ABA bored to 83mm. 
Complete bottom has been balanced. 



_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:08 AM 11-19-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

why is it that you left the head un-touched? it seems with all the money going into the motor that a bit of head work would produce much larger gains. 
is there any particular reason you chose this route? i have heard several claims that this is the ultimate NA motor setup, yet have never seen any crazy numbers out of one, just curious about your input seeing as you have actually done it


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_why is it that you left the head un-touched? it seems with all the money going into the motor that a bit of head work would produce much larger gains. 
is there any particular reason you chose this route? i have heard several claims that this is the ultimate NA motor setup, yet have never seen any crazy numbers out of one, just curious about your input seeing as you have actually done it










I chose this route primarily because not many people do it, I do not like turbo lag and it was challenging, building a 400 plus turbo 20/20 would have been child's play compared to this build.
I left the head untouched for now. I have a spare head that I will have properly worked over and will bolt on. As regards the 'ultimate' NA setup and crazy #'s my intention was to achieve 100hp/L of displacement. I have almost gotten there on the 45's and the oem manifold. 
However this car is presently my daily driver so it runs on pump gas. Traditionally VW heads do not move as much air as for e.g. Honda heads, which is part of the reason the Honda motors can make such big numbers NA. The 20v doesn't have a huge range of cams to choose from either.
Finally it depends on what you call 'crazy' #'s, I should be able to close on 190hp to the wheels on pump gas, I'd consider that pretty crazy on a NA 4cyl VW street motor, if I run 102 octane gas I 'll probably get to 200whp on the stock head. I am guessing with a head that flows in the 250 - 300cfm range on race gas I could probably pick up another 15 at the wheels. 
It takes time and $$$, but its fun so far. 



_Modified by WolfGTI at 2:09 PM 4-3-2007_


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Head - stock AEB 20v head (unported) with Supertech valvetrain.
Cams - Kent cams 293degree intake 9.65mm lift / 295 degree exhaust 11.00 mm lift
Pistons 12:1 forged JE 20v pistons
Rods - Arrow precision forged balanced rods
Crank - Eurospecsport forged 4340 lightened, knife edged race crank
ITB's - 48mm Jenvey TH series
Block - ABA bored to 83mm. 
Complete bottom has been balanced. 

What is this setup turning for rev's currently?
Any info on tranny? 020, 02a? R+P?
I'm currently shooting for similar numbers from my setup (PL based 16v). The goal is 200whp on pump.
Nice job. 


_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:09 AM 11-19-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

thanks for the in-depth response, appreciate actual first hand experiance vs. "this one guy in know said..."








the bay looks great, and 170w is nothing to be snuffed at. great works so far man, look forward to seeing more progress whenever you get to it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_
What is this setup turning for rev's currently?
Any info on tranny? 020, 02a? R+P?
I'm currently shooting for similar numbers from my setup (PL based 16v). The goal is 200whp on pump.
Nice job. 

Tranny - G60 02A transmission case, normal MK3 VR6 gears 1 through 4, TDI 5th (.72) and 4.24 R&P, Quaife diff, lightened G60 flywheel, ClutchNet stage 2 clutch.
RPM's - Below 3000 it is a little soft, probably comparable to a stock 16v under 3000, the party begins @ about 3400 and by 4400 the ladies are shaking it all the way to 7700 easily as the video shows, will see on the dyno how much further it goes. 



_Modified by WolfGTI at 2:12 PM 4-3-2007_


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

Very nice setup! Interesting idea with the 02a and 4.24r+p. How's that gearing feel with the available power on hand? I like the concept.
I'm actually going to be running an 020 2H with 100mm flanges (3.94r+p), peloquin, 8lb flywheel, and a mixture of clutch (clutchnet disk w/ DRS tripple strapped PP).
I had originally wanted to go similar in route with the aba bottom end and use the 16v head (simply for cam options). Decided to go short stroke and use the 86.4 crank and punch the 1.8 block to 84mm bore (looking for more square stroke). Puts me at 1915cc's. Still working out the final details before we fire it up.
Very interested to see how your build progresses. Motor sounds great and car seems to fly. I'm impressed with how effortlessly it rev's. Motor seemingly is smoother above 4k or so. Very impressive setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (Fast929)*

The 4.24 is money on a high revving 4cyl setup. Even the first time he was over untuned I thought it pulled at least as well as a bolt on VR6. The gear makes it feel like it's making about 30% more torque then it really has. The VR6 1st gear helps control wheel spin a bit in 1st as well. I don't think the normal 4cyl gear would be long enough to be useful.
I'd be nice to see what this thing will lay down as it sits, before the ported head, bigger cams and more comp


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (need_a_VR6)*

Looking at the numbers, with the 4.24 running VR gearing, it's very simialr to the 2H 020 with the 3.94. Within a couple mph either way wheel speed all things being equal otherwise.
Ya, I can't wait to see what that thing puts down. Impressive build!


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_to this


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

Sounds good, and looks good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## A3dOUde (Dec 22, 2002)

always a pleasure for ears to hear those N/A's 20-20 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_...bigger cams and more comp









No way.
You mean to tell me the 7 days a week, 365 days a year, street driven, daily driver, commute to work car is going to lose that status/title? Wow, maybe if my car ever gets rolling around I will be the one saying "...but Mendra, it's a street car".


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
No way.
You mean to tell me the 7 days a week, 365 days a year, street driven, daily driver, commute to work car is going to lose that status/title? Wow, maybe if my car ever gets rolling around I will be the one saying "...but Mendra, it's a street car".
















It's still a street car - but come the end of summer I'll retire it to maybe 3-4 days a week driven except in winter and I'll drive the Mini for a while until I figure what I want next. I want to respray the exterior and address some rust spots that are beginning to appear in the passenger rear floor pan before they get too bad.




_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:22 AM 4-4-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I will be the one saying "...but Mendra, it's a street car".
















I hate to say it but I laughed a little bit out loud at that one.


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## anti-seize (Aug 2, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (need_a_VR6)*

incredible...followed your original build-up post every page. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

that header looks too pretty to be used


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (tibzzz)*

did you make the header or buy it?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (G60ING)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60ING* »_did you make the header or buy it? 

He had it made.In order to get it mass produced your looking @ roughly $900US - $1000US a pop.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (Wizard-of-OD)*

hey Mendra, looking and sounding good. I can't wait to see the numbers you get out of it. What size crank is it?
To the comment about nobody making big power out of a NA 20v, go to Race101.com and check out Nate Romeros car, he ran 123 mph in a corrado (forget the weight) and made ~240 on a dyno dynamics dynowith his newest setup.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (lugnuts)*

I saw you there Kevin, didn't get chance to say hello, this is how i performed, we haven't done anything on the dyno since the header / 48mm ITB's were put on.
R/T - .364
60ft - 2.468
330 - 6.381
1/8 - 9.593
MPH - 76.48
1000 - 12.336
1/4 - 14.713
MPH - 94.26

Weighed in @ 2650 at Etown Show N Go - There's wheelspin though, I let chim-chim make a few passes he got it to 14.73 on his last pass. Then I made a few - go figure I was consistently running 15.0's in the Time trial then I break out on my actual run and go 14.71



_Modified by WolfGTI at 9:05 PM 4-23-2007_


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

Who needs a Dyno? This is real world proof


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (sdezego)*

I made 172 to the wheels last time I dynoed - which was with the smaller ITB's and no header - I haven't tweaked the maps that much since then so that's a good guess I think.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (sdezego)*









That little disclaimer at the bottom is assuming a **** load of drivetrain loss.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (billyVR6)*

True but if you use something more conservative, like 12%, is 193bhp. You know UK style


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (billyVR6)*

They should not use the term "loss" for the 18%, they are mulitplying the wheel hp number by 18% to get the crank hp number like most dynojet shops do (15/85=176)= 17.6% times wheel hp=crank hp, so I would use the term "15% loss" from the crank.
For what its worth our engine shops 8v rabbit made 204 on a Superflow engine dyno and 177 on a Dynojet. I wasn't contracted to monitor the conditions but it is an alcohol car so it does run more consistent in regard to air changes.
That HP/MPH Calculator is spot on when I run numbers from 3 all motor setups i know about(who would have thought lugnuts getting all excited about allmotor!)


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (lugnuts)*

now they just have to write a HP/MPH calculator for cecil county haha


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (lugnuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lugnuts* »_now they just have to write a HP/MPH calculator for cecil county haha

Add .2 sec and sub 2mph and you're there.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (lugnuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lugnuts* »_That HP/MPH Calculator is spot on when I run numbers... 

What's the link to that one?


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (billyVR6)*

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (lugnuts)*

Hmmm, that has my old VR6 car up on power. Using that link I achieved and passed the almighty "200whp" mark for an all motor VW. 204whp baby!








Anyway, I got your IM on VWsport, **** wouldn't let me write you back...


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

What did you do to get the computer to register everything properly? I've been curious how everything changes over with serious work like head swaps and ITBs.
Here's an odd one - what about a MAF? Or do you use a manifold absolute pressure sensor in what little of an intake manifold is there?


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_What did you do to get the computer to register everything properly? I've been curious how everything changes over with serious work like head swaps and ITBs.
Here's an odd one - what about a MAF? Or do you use a manifold absolute pressure sensor in what little of an intake manifold is there?

I run a standalone engine management system. My factory ECU hasn't been in my car for over 2 years. The cluster will still work perfectly without it. I use a MAP sensor that's plumbed into the intake manifold, for fuel mapping I use TPS.


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
I run a standalone engine management system. My factory ECU hasn't been in my car for over 2 years. The cluster will still work perfectly without it. I use a MAP sensor that's plumbed into the intake manifold, for fuel mapping I use TPS. 

The MAP didn't cross my mind until I started typing... that's the only thing I could think of. I kind of figured a setup like this would be kind of complicated with a stock ECU... I know there's options for the 16v head, but this is all custom.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_I saw you there Kevin, didn't get chance to say hello, this is how i performed, we haven't done anything on the dyno since the header / 48mm ITB's were put on.
R/T - .364
60ft - 2.468
330 - 6.381
1/8 - 9.593
MPH - 76.48
1000 - 12.336
1/4 - 14.713
MPH - 94.26
Speed / HP calculator now has me @ 178 at the wheels and 211 crank.

Weighed in @ 2650 at Etown Show N Go - There's wheelspin though, I let chim-chim make a few passes he got it to 14.73 on his last pass. Then I made a few - go figure I was consistently running 15.0's in the Time trial then I break out on my actual run and go 14.71


New time - 
R/T - ..226
60ft - 2.349
330 - 6.262
1/8 - 9.518
MPH - 75.66
1000 - 12.298
1/4 - 14.664
MPH - 95.23
This now puts me @ 211crank or 179 whp.


_Modified by WolfGTI at 3:55 PM 4-27-2007_


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## 97golf2.slow (Aug 12, 2005)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*

that calculator is for rwd cars. they forgot to account fwd loss of traction


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

that setup is pretty sweet


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Chapel)*

Sounds great, open stacks or did you have filter's on there? Really sounds good when you were getting on the highway in the upper RPMS.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (secondgen)*

The video is made with an air filter on the car.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Whew, good i was just checkin'







Wouldn't wanna damage those purdy internals.


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: (secondgen)*

I hope you don't think I'm a copycat, since I am doing a 9a/20v on throttle bodies


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (kenny_blankenship)*

hows this thing going? any new dyno numbers?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (VWralley)*

This car is literally waiting for me to find time to go to the dyno. Last time we had it out to do some more street tuning it was WAY stronger then the 172whp pulls before.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_This car is literally waiting for me to find time to go to the dyno. Last time we had it out to do some more street tuning it was WAY stronger then the 172whp pulls before.

That's the truth as stated by my crew chief.


_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:58 AM 9-5-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

looking into this option for a race car, so im def waiting to see what you guys come up with








basically im trying to come up with an engine combo that is relativly cost effective that in NA form will allow the most power with the least amount of radical mods to keep the reliability up as much as possible. 



_Modified by VWralley at 9:13 AM 9-5-2007_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_looking into this option for a race car, so im def waiting to see what you guys come up with








basically im trying to come up with an engine combo that is relativly cost effective that in NA form will allow the most power with the least amount of radical mods to keep the reliability up as much as possible. 

_Modified by VWralley at 9:13 AM 9-5-2007_

For a race car you can run solid lifter cams - even bigger







. 
For cost effectiveness vs. power in NA form I'd bet a 16v built up will give you a better hp/$ ratio.
For reliability - my 20/20 has over 13,000 miles on it now including an 8hour nonstop (except for gas) run in one direction and back @ sustained speeds over 80mph. It's dealt with idling in traffic in 97degree summer heat on I95 - so far it's really been a gem.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

well as of now, im kinda seeing my limit on the 16v to be aroudn 170-180whp based of the money id have to spend and still keeping it sane. i have heard upwards of 260whp out of a 20/20 setup but havnt seen any evidence or what they did to achieve these numbers.
im thinkin if you can make almost 200 with a stock head, im wondering if with a ton of port work/cams and up the comp. if i could make that same or close number without the expensive bottom end parts..


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_well as of now, im kinda seeing my limit on the 16v to be aroudn 170-180whp based of the money id have to spend and still keeping it sane. i have heard upwards of 260whp out of a 20/20 setup but havnt seen any evidence or what they did to achieve these numbers.
im thinkin if you can make almost 200 with a stock head, im wondering if with a ton of port work/cams and up the comp. if i could make that same or close number without the expensive bottom end parts..

Possibly - of course if it's a race motor then you can bump the comp up 2 points easily. 260whp - wow - I'd love to see the spec sheet on that puppy!








As Paul stated, the motor feels much stronger now than it did when I made the 172whp pulls. I am hoping I can conclusively break the 200crank figure with the stock head, so when I put on a worked head I'll be looking for 210 - maybe 220 crank.


_Modified by WolfGTI at 2:13 PM 9-5-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

also talking with him i believe in another thread i started, i guess i could have just sent you guys and IM








thanks for the input, my project is a ways out and ill continue researching this idea. ill be watching to see how you do


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_This car is literally waiting for me to find time to go to the dyno.

its waiting for the dyno truck at h2o - it told me so!


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_if i could make that same or close number without the expensive bottom end parts.

I say do it, because you can. If you are going to spend any money, just put it towards good pistons, run everything else stock. Just keep your 16v race header and have a flange made for the 20v. Those 1.75" primaries will let it breathe and be inexpensive too.
Just keep in mind, if this is a race engine, high revs and lift do not like small lifters. That and you'll have to deal with the 5th valve limiting your cam lift. What's the point of extensive CFM at high lift if the camshafts can't get the valves up to where you want them?


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
I say do it, because you can. If you are going to spend any money, just put it towards good pistons, run everything else stock. Just keep your 16v race header and have a flange made for the 20v. Those 1.75" primaries will let it breathe and be inexpensive too.
Just keep in mind, if this is a race engine, high revs and lift do not like small lifters. That and you'll have to deal with the 5th valve limiting your cam lift. What's the point of extensive CFM at high lift if the camshafts can't get the valves up to where you want them?

I agree, simply because most of the 'tex is keyboard engineers. Nothing against y'all that *actually* do somethings......
WITH proper spark control, stock rods will handle a TON of work. Pistons, same story but to a much lesser degree. 
Now then, BillyVR6 presents the classic 16v vs 20v arguement in cloaked fashion.........with this statement:
Just keep in mind, if this is a race engine, high revs and lift do not like small lifters. That and you'll have to deal with the 5th valve limiting your cam lift. What's the point of extensive CFM at high lift if the camshafts can't get the valves up to where you want them?
I can only respond with this...after 13 years of wanting to make V tech hp on a vw engine...20v is it.. Not that it EVEN comes close to Honda... but....the biggest #s are 20v. Not by much and not by enough hp per $ to be worth it, but they are there. Nate Romero has the tube drag 'rado making 230ish wheel backin the day and Mendra's association in the UK made HUGE #s on a real track. The potential is there, but not for most cheap azz vortxxers.......


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_The potential is there, but not for most cheap azz vortxxers.......

That's the thing... by no means does anyone have to spend anywhere near the amount of money that they think. I wise man once said "I don't build anything that I can't afford to break". His engine was stock rods, stacked headgaskets, stock 95.5 crank, gutted carbs (not itb's), etc., etc. Even though in the end it was off race gas, that engine was built on a budget for damn sure, a very crafty one at that.
Look at it before the carbs/TB's... that manifold was just a hacked AEB with a log and a 80mm TB, nothing special. Most cheap azz's could make that for dirt cheap. But they wont, everyone want's throttle bodies, everyone wants cams that make a big block chevy blush while running compression that would rival a diesel engine.
That's just not a good way to go about it.
Then, as mentioned, everyone trying to make it rev like a damn Honda. Get over it. If the effort of trying to get that 9K engine was just focused on an RPM range where the 16v engines makes a solid power I honestly don't think there would 1/2 as many of these under powered engines floating around.
To many people say "you can't do that..." because of sh*t like that.

_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_...and Mendra's association in the UK made HUGE #s on a real track.

BTW, what's a "real track"?


_Modified by billyVR6 at 9:03 PM 9-6-2007_


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Great post. 
As to what is a "real track".....it was post cocktail hour, who knows what I was thinking.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
That's the thing... by no means does anyone have to spend anywhere near the amount of money that they think. I wise man once said "I don't build anything that I can't afford to break". His engine was stock rods, stacked headgaskets, stock 95.5 crank, gutted carbs (not itb's), etc., etc. Even though in the end it was off race gas, that engine was built on a budget for damn sure, a very crafty one at that.
Look at it before the carbs/TB's... that manifold was just a hacked AEB with a log and a 80mm TB, nothing special. Most cheap azz's could make that for dirt cheap. But they wont, everyone want's throttle bodies, everyone wants cams that make a big block chevy blush while running compression that would rival a diesel engine.
That's just not a good way to go about it.
Then, as mentioned, everyone trying to make it rev like a damn Honda. Get over it. If the effort of trying to get that 9K engine was just focused on an RPM range where the 16v engines makes a solid power I honestly don't think there would 1/2 as many of these under powered engines floating around.
To many people say "you can't do that..." because of sh*t like that.
BTW, what's a "real track"?
_Modified by billyVR6 at 9:03 PM 9-6-2007_

Using the points raised by Billy -
I built my motor to my budget, if anything breaks in my motor I can replace it, I would prefer not to but I can if the need arises. I read alot on HondaTech and combined that with tech tips gathered from several engine building books for naturally aspirated motors. 
Regarding my use of ITB's - cars do make power on a log style manifold there's no doubt. But when you're stretching for that last hp and superb engine response, ITB's are pretty much the ultimate. Log style manifolds have come a hell of a long way in the last 5 years on HONDAS, VW's suffer from a dearth of well designed naturally aspirated manifolds. And the 20v suffers even more than other VW heads when if comes to manifold choices. The tunability of the itb's with varying length of the velocity stacks is something I intend to play with on multiple back to back dyno runs.
My goal was to break 100hp/L in a VW motor. The fact is regardless of 16v or 20v, VW heads do not flow like Honda heads, the 5th valve in the 20v is somewhat limiting, however do you really need super large lifts if the cross sectional area of the valves exceeds the 2 valves of the 16v handily? I compared the lifts on my cam to 16v cam lifts, while a few hydro 16v cams do exceed the total lift on my 20v cams, the additional airflow of the 3rd valve gives me a nice cushion. 12:1 compression is pretty doable on the street, if I were to rebuild this motor I'd probably look for a 13.5 or 14:1 squeeze on E100, however on pump gas (93oct) I think the 12:1 is about as far as I am willing to go. With some dyno time with Master Paul we'll see where this goes. I very seriously doubt that a 20/20 built with stock components would be as responsive as my motor is.
I do agree with Billy - many people told me 12:1 can't be done on pump gas and driven everyday through summer, in winter etc, I've also heard that ITB's can't be on a daily driver and that standalone can't be used on a daily driver. It's all BS, put your money where your mouth is or go home. There's too many speculators, naysayers and plain bench racers on the internet.



_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:39 AM 9-7-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

My post was that everyone assumes that you need to dump a lot of money into a build like that, when you don't, not once did mention your budget or even question your use of throttle bodies.
But you bring up this point...

_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_I very seriously doubt that a 20/20 built with stock components would be as responsive as my motor is.

Do you honestly think that the Race101 engine was not responsive?


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_My post was that everyone assumes that you need to dump a lot of money into a build like that, when you don't, not once did mention your budget or even question your use of throttle bodies.
But you bring up this point...
Do you honestly think that the Race101 engine was not responsive?


My post was not intended to be an attack on your post Billy. I was stating why I went about my build like it did, I agree it possibly can be done cheaper.
I didn't say Nate's motor wasn't responsive, however his motor was in a car hundreds of lbs lighter and running more compression than my motor with larger cams, so I am sure it was responsive. Although with that long stroke crank, I wonder if it rev's as effortlessly as mine does.
Comparing my motor and Nate's is different because his motor is built for one purpose - to get down the 1/4 mile - which it did and went like hell. My motor was built to drive everyday and tear up on a road course every so often. I think longevity wise my motor will outlast the race motor, albeit at a cost of less horsepower.




_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:40 AM 9-7-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_I think longevity wise my motor will outlast the race motor

You are aware that there was a 2033cc engine at first... right?
Way way before the 2142cc engine that most people acknowledge and talk about.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
You are aware that there was a 2033cc engine at first... right?
Way way before the 2142cc engine that most people acknowledge and talk about.

No, I thought there was only 1 motor with the long stroke crank. 2033 is marginally larger than my 2008cc presently.


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

awesome info/debate, love it








so here is the deal. the goal for the car is to have a dual purpose race car. autox and road racing. the road racing class is the one i will focus on as far as car prep goes. my class restrictions are literally, under 2L, car must ressemble the car its supposed to be, no minimum weight.
so you can imagine the cars that i will come up against








the car i crew for (traksclothing.com) is running a 148whp 8v setup, he runs about mid pack for the group. the only spots he falls behind is in the straight sections. he is building a ridiculous 16v, no expense spared blah blah...well i want to be right behind him. Im not going to be super serious and going after champioships, but i want to be able to hit a few races a year, and run with the front of the pack.
basically i need the cheapest route to the most power atainable under 2L. now when i say cheapest, i dont mean half ass'd junkyard BS. i mean overall cost of mods/parts. im prepared to spend the money (which is why im researching options now) i just need to formulate a plan and get started









thanks a ton for all the help/response


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (VWralley)*

Stock 9A block with a thin ass headgasket and some valve reliefs put in the pistons.


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

whats the comp. at when you put the 20v head on a 9a bottom?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (VWralley)*

Just higher then stock 16v compression but depends more on the valve reliefs depth and gasket thickness then much else.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Way way before the 2142cc engine that most people acknowledge and talk about.

I await to see how his cylinder walls hold up with that bore + FI. (assuming your refering to nate romero)

_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_many people told me 12:1 can't be done on pump gas and driven everyday through summer, in winter etc, I've also heard that ITB's can't be on a daily driver and that standalone can't be used on a daily driver. It's all BS, put your money where your mouth is or go home. There's too many speculators, naysayers and plain bench racers on the internet.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
My former Toda 4A-GE 20V had an 11:1 CR,48mm ITB's and AC..oh it was also built for the mountains of Japan.I did put in 89oct but got a little noise going up hills and such.
That being said,there only a few in the VW/Audi industry that I ask questions to or take advice from because MANY here are really stuck on Chevy SB V8 land...


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_...because MANY here are really stuck on Chevy SB V8 land...

Can you point me to where that place might be?
I can't seem to locate it on my GPS.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Can you point me to where that place might be?
I can't seem to locate it on my GPS.

Not @ the present time no.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Aww, that's a piss, I got all excited for nothing.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Aww, that's a piss, I got all excited for nothing.

Lol.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Lol.

Stop laughing and get me some header measurements.
Thanks


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Stop laughing and get me some header measurements.) 

He can't give those away it took me a long time bugging the right people on Honda-Tech for them.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

I totally missed this..

_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Log style manifolds have come a hell of a long way in the last 5 years on HONDAS, VW's suffer from a dearth of well designed naturally aspirated manifolds.

I see that Honda was typed in caps, so what's with all of the USRT manifold hype?
Those were on Volkswagens, not Hondas, that was a simple manifold that made power. If I am not mistaken there is an ABA 8v engine or two out there that ran that manifold still using a chip and got the same power if not more than your old 8v ITB set up.
I bet USRT could further push the envelope of that manifold for damn sure. I seriously doubt they will for marketing reasons do to the recent push of the ITB package they have.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I totally missed this..
I see that Honda was typed in caps, so what's with all of the USRT manifold hype?
Those were on Volkswagens, not Hondas, that was a simple manifold that made power. If I am not mistaken there is an ABA 8v engine or two out there that ran that manifold still using a chip and got the same power if not more than your old 8v ITB set up.


I used caps because, in terms of manifold design the Honda aftermarket has more options as well as more advanced manifold design than the VW after market. USRT hopefully will advance their manifold design. Remember one thing with my 8v - the bottom end was bone stock all the work was in the head (stock height not decked) and intake / management. There are a couple 8v ABA's now putting down my #'s or better with manifolds - but they either run more compression or larger cam or a combination of both more compression and a larger cam.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Any compression gained from decking a head is really going to just give you some useable torque, not big HP numbers. The ones I remember were running 276 duration, that what you had in there, right?


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Compression will give you more HP at the top end, agreed on the more torque. The ones I am referring were running the 288 cam. I had a 276. I bet Joe's ABA on standalone would have made more than my motor - he had that head seriously hogged out and shaved.
Then again one has to take into account dynoing on different dynos - so who knows how much power any of the more powerful 8v's actually had in relation to each other.


_Modified by WolfGTI at 3:46 PM 9-12-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Then again one has to take into account dynoing on different dynos - so who knows how much power any of the more powerful 8v's actually had in relation to each other.

No way, dynos can produce different numbers?
Impossible.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

There is a fight and I missed it?...........







I must be working to much.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_There is a fight and I missed it?

Damn, I missed it too!


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Fight? Where, who, when?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_...I must be working to much.

You should bring over some of your posts from your old 20v head porting post...
See where that gets you in this topic.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
You should bring over some of your posts from your old 20v head porting post...
See where that gets you in this topic.










How is this funny?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

Maybe it's just funny to me...
I'll just keep this stuff to myself from here on out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Maybe it's just funny to me...
I'll just keep this stuff to myself from here on out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Go right ahead speak Your mind, I am interested in the Data you have.


_Modified by X K R O M X at 2:39 AM 9-16-2007_


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

I will shoot you a PM to bring you up to speed.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
That being said,there only a few in the VW/Audi industry that I ask questions to or take advice from because MANY here are really stuck on Chevy SB V8 land...

I started mixing 93 with 114. The wieners at the place where I buy fuel said you need 114 for 13.0:1 or higher I am mixing almost 50% 93 with 114 with detonation and not on a conservitative timing map.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

Even if it's not a true 1:1 ratio...
Your still looking at 100+/- octane from that mixture.
A far cry from a straight 114 that they say.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Correct I have talked to several people with various cars running 12:1 and higher and most have said they are mixing their gas or running straight 93 on some 12:1 motors with no problem and some with no knock sensors but they also don't go crazy with the timing either







I think running stright 114 is an urban legend started by people trying to sell race gas. But some piston shapes also help to prevent detonation


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurotrashrabbit* »_But some piston shapes also help to prevent detonation









Piston shape, combustion chamber design and shape, the plugs you run, how aggressive your timing is, all factor into detonation.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
*Piston shape*, combustion chamber design and shape, the plugs you run, how aggressive your timing is, all factor into detonation.

Those sharp edges that come with your JE custom pistons dont help either.


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Those sharp edges that come with your JE custom pistons dont help either.









Assuming one leaves them like that - BTW I have no pinging @ WOT @ 35degrees timing in 97 degree summer air.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

I ordered knocksense to use indepently of my MS to see if it detonates. I have been mixing 114 and 93 but with cast pistons and 13.5:1 I would prefer not to burn up anything


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurotrashrabbit* »_I ordered knocksense to use indepently of my MS to see if it detonates. I have been mixing 114 and 93 but with cast pistons and 13.5:1 I would prefer not to burn up anything









I'm only running 12:1 - plus the 20v combustion chamber is pretty well designed.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Good to know


----------



## riegerscirocco (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurotrashrabbit* »_ cast pistons and 13.5:1 I would prefer not to burn up anything









you would prefer it not to but it sure sounds like youre asking for it...















thats no street car i hope


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (riegerscirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riegerscirocco* »_
thats no street car i hope

Of course it is. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (riegerscirocco)*

You are correct sir


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

Changes - the header and 48mm ITB's installed in April, the original runs are 45mm ITB's and OEM manifold.
















*
Special thanks to The Race Shop, especially Joe Pinto for building this 9000 rpm 4 banger.
Special thanks to Paul Kiernan of K&P Performance for tuning the ECU and header design.*


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

I still almost don't believe the results. First pull was to 7200 or so and it didn't peak and fall. Turned it up to 7800, still not falling off. Engine builder says, crank it to 9. Go up to 8200.. still not falling really. Engine builder says just keep going already. 8800 starting to fall off a little bit. Do some playing with the cam gear... 9000. WOAH. 175whp+ from 6800 to almost 9k is no joke. 
The neat thing is you can really see the resonant points of the intake system here. It's most noticeable on the torque curve. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Boggles my mind - that it did that - I would have never expected a VW on hydros to rev out like that.


----------



## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif very nice numbers from a well built motor

my question is where does the stock tach stop at now


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (not SoQuick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *not SoQuick* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif very nice numbers from a well built motor

my question is where does the stock tach stop at now









Kinda funny - the stock tach basically winds past 7 and keeps going then passes the 1/2 mark of the LCD and looks like it wants to head back to zero.


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

OMFG!
Time to convert to solids pal, and one of these...












_Modified by tdogg74 at 9:03 AM 11-18-2007_


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

I have an Autometer 10k rpm tach in the car already - next up - solid lifters and cams in a ported 20v head.


----------



## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Nice!


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (evil-e)*

Damn bro! Nice numbers for a basically stock head yes? 
BIG http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for building her right! Awesome numbers!
Oh ya, nice tuning too Paul








So, 9k on a hydro head? What's the lift on those cams?


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_Damn bro! Nice numbers for a basically stock head yes? 
BIG http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for building her right! Awesome numbers!
Oh ya, nice tuning too Paul








So, 9k on a hydro head? What's the lift on those cams? 

Head casting is bone stock. Aftermarket valvetrain and Kent Cams.
Intake lift is 9.65mm, exhaust lift is 11.30mm


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Very good numbers


----------



## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

really awesome numbers!


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

honestly, those numbers are not that much different than what a built16v is going to produce w/ itb's and that jazz. I am wondering what is holding you back from doing better?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (mk2dubbin)*

I really wonder why this isn't making MORE power. a 20v head is going to flow better than a 16v head stock for stock, but....a built 16v w/ ITB's is going to perform just as well. I'd think for the effort a 20v ABA should be pulling down easily over 200whp.
Not hating, just wondering...


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## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_I have an Autometer 10k rpm tach in the car already - next up - solid lifters and cams in a ported 20v head.

















In stock


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

~190hp from 7k to 8500


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (twopointone)*

IDK, how many ported 16Ver's can go to 9K AND make those #'s? Great build. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_IDK, how many ported 16Ver's can go to 9K AND make those #'s? Great build. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









They are out there, I bet you will see another one in the future....
the guy who built this engine is slowly working up an N/A 16v as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Congrats Mendra. Fantastic #s. Now let's continue our header discussion


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_~190hp *to the wheels* from 7k to 8500









Fixed it.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_I really wonder why this isn't making MORE power. a 20v head is going to flow better than a 16v head stock for stock, but....a built 16v w/ ITB's is going to perform just as well. I'd think for the effort a 20v ABA should be pulling down easily over 200whp.
Not hating, just wondering...

The people I have spoken with who have 20/20's have made similar power #'s on pump gas. The motors that made big numbers had headwork, race gas or methanol and more compression than I did. - My head is stock and this is on 93 octane fuel. 

_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
They are out there, I bet you will see another one in the future....
the guy who built this engine is slowly working up an N/A 16v as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

I haven't seen many 16v's on pump gas meet this and even fewer exceed it. On race gas it's more possible. The 16v Joe is going to build will probably beat up on me on the dyno, of course he's doing my 20v head so maybe I have a chance of having a more powerful motor - lol. But I achieved exceeding my 100hp/L goal and the motor shocked Paul so I feel good. Joe was happy with the numbers and he built it so I can't aski for more at this time.


_Modified by WolfGTI at 9:25 PM 11-18-2007_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_I really wonder why this isn't making MORE power. a 20v head is going to flow better than a 16v head stock for stock, but....a built 16v w/ ITB's is going to perform just as well. I'd think for the effort a 20v ABA should be pulling down easily over 200whp.
Not hating, just wondering...

I think you should check around. Not many guys pulling 200whp NA in any configuration.
Believe me, ITB's aren't what's going to get you there. They might help but it's the sum of the WHOLE package and the devil in the details that'll make this happen.
Take a look at Mendra's build. I'd hazard a guess that there's 10k worth of motor sitting there all said and done (or not done as it may be







. 
Take it from someone else who knows.
Mendra, awesome numbers bro! 
Eric


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
I haven't seen many 16v's on pump gas meet this and even fewer exceed it. 
_Modified by WolfGTI at 9:25 PM 11-18-2007_

I'm coming for ya


----------



## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_
I'm coming for ya









I want your motor so see at least 190whp if not more, knowing Joe - his motor will probably hit the 200whp.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_I really wonder why this isn't making MORE power. 

It's a STOCK head!


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
I want your motor so see at least 190whp if not more, knowing Joe - his motor will probably hit the 200whp. 

I thought Joe and Paul were VR guys








I'll personally be driving down to see you guys over the summer. I'm as big of fan of hanging with the guys and seeing their quality builds as I am building my own. Def quality stuff going on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Fast929 at 7:39 PM 11-18-2007_


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
It's a STOCK head!









depending on the 20v head, even in stock form the big valve one will outflow a ported 16v head. It's important to think about cost of the head vs cost of other options and really come to the best option. Doing something just because it can be done can be cool, but not always the best idea out there. Props to trying something new? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'd be interested to see what it did w/ come cams. Unfortunately they are going to have to be custom made as there aren't many NA 20v's out there. Not to mention new valves and 20 lifters isn't really cheap either. 
All this stuff costs money, and at what point is it prohibitive to much much much cheaper and sufficient options. I'm not trying to be a dick, just discussing, so don't flame me









_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_
I think you should check around. Not many guys pulling 200whp NA in any configuration.
Believe me, ITB's aren't what's going to get you there. They might help but it's the sum of the WHOLE package and the devil in the details that'll make this happen.
Take a look at Mendra's build. I'd hazard a guess that there's 10k worth of motor sitting there all said and done (or not done as it may be







. 
Take it from someone else who knows.
Mendra, awesome numbers bro! 
Eric

I dunno man... 308's a ported head w/ solid lifters and you are there (or damn on par close) on a 16v. Just look at some of xKROMx's motor's... 


_Modified by twopointone at 9:46 PM 11-18-2007_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_
I'd be interested to see what it did w/ come cams. Unfortunately they are going to have to be custom made as there aren't many NA 20v's out there.

Interested to see what it would do with some cams?
The engine has a set of 294* (or something) Kent cams in there as we speak....




_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:51 PM 11-18-2007_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_

I dunno man... 308's a ported head w/ solid lifters and you are there (or damn on par close) on a 16v. Just look at some of xKROMx's motor's... 
_Modified by twopointone at 9:46 PM 11-18-2007_

Two things - xKROMx's motor doesn't run on pump gas and isn't a daily driven motor - both of which mine are.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Interested to see what it would do with some cams?
The engine has a set of 294* (or something) Kent cams in there as we speak...

I was unaware. Thought it was a stock head? I would think w/ 294 cams in there, the thing would be doing well over 200. Obviously the stock porting on the head is whats holding it back now.







Unless I have that wrong too, I apologize if so. I have ADD. Why only an 83mm bore?

_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
Two things - xKROMx's motor doesn't run on pump gas and isn't a daily driven motor - both of which mine are. 

I daily a 16v ABA 2.1 12.5:1 fully ported head car on pump gas. It isn't make 200hp, but it also doesn't have ITB's. Daily driven is irrelevant anyways. 
Like I said, just discussing here. This is obviously about 5400x cooler than a 1.8T swap. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by twopointone at 10:44 PM 11-18-2007_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_
I was unaware. Thought it was a stock head? I would think w/ 294 cams in there, the thing would be doing well over 200. Obviously the stock porting on the head is whats holding it back now.







Unless I have that wrong too, I apologize if so. I have ADD. Why only an 83mm bore?
_Modified by twopointone at 10:44 PM 11-18-2007_

The head casting itself is stock 20v big port AEB VAG head with a Race-Shop valve job. The valvetrain isn't stock. I think the stock head has reached it's limits for an NA motor with my build. Next up will be a ported head and some came with more lift and solid lifters. I only went to 83mm because I didn't see the need to go bigger, plus the larger the pistons get the heavier they get - every gram counts











_Modified by WolfGTI at 11:08 PM 11-23-2007_


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Hummm, last I checked an AEB was flowing 220'ish stock. Certainly respectable. That head is pretty well optimized from the factory (for boost) so while porting may net you some gains, you certainly don't want to hurt the overall port velocity as driveability will suffer. There is certainly a few more cfm there but it's not the deal breaker.
Believe me, the head isn't what's holding it back. Valve lift and cam selection, ok, but not the head.
Jarod's (XKROMX) motor is 14:1 on race fuel. Head flows real well (lets call it better than 220cfm). His mill did 197whp on a hydro head and TT 288's. 
There is a reason 200whp NA for a vw 4-banger is sorta considered the "holy grail" if you will. Just not that easily attained in a streetable package.
What's most impressive about Mendra's numbers is a shear linearity and rpm range it's producing impressive power. Motor is making 175+ from like 6800 on up. Nice stuff there.


_Modified by Fast929 at 9:03 PM 11-18-2007_


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Fast929)*

absolutely. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Great work.


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_
What's most impressive about Mendra's numbers is a shear linearity and rpm range it's producing impressive power. Motor is making 175+ from like 6800 on up. Nice stuff there.

_Modified by Fast929 at 9:03 PM 11-18-2007_

x 2 on this 
forget total power for a min as far as high revving na motors go this has one of the most useable powerbands I have seen http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (not SoQuick)*

This current head does have the exhaust valves replaced, yes?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

im curious to see what the valves look like when you pull the head back off. I've heard the valves like to get touchy feely w/ each other w/ a lot of lift.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_I would have never expected a VW on hydros to rev out like that.

Toyota was doing it on the 4A-GE 20V for years....I use to make my Toda 20V piss itself...
I wanted to punch each person in the face when he said that you couldnt rev the stock hydro's to 8500+rpm's.Now here is the kicker....try revving it to 10,000 rpm's







.Thats where the solids come into play...gotta spool that T67 somehow








BTW Mendra...got a lead on any VWMS cast manifolds?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 20v 2.0L ABA hybrid on ITB's (Wizard-of-OD)*

love the decal


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_This current head does have the exhaust valves replaced, yes?

Pretty sure it has Supertech stock size exhaust valves in it. 
By stock head, I really meant unported casting. There's no way stock springs would make it up there.
As far as the lifters, you see how 'jittery' the dyno gets at high revs? One possibility is the lifters.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_This current head does have the exhaust valves replaced, yes?

Correct - stock sized Supertech intake and exhaust valves.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Pretty sure it has Supertech stock size exhaust valves in it. 
By stock head, I really meant unported casting. There's no way stock springs would make it up there. 

O.K., good to know on the head, I keep seeing "stock head" mentioned over and over.
Here, I thought it was stock intakes with Supertech exhaust valves.
Now I hear it's both intake and exhaust where replaced for Supertech valves.
I am not sure why the intakes were replaced for just a stock diameter as those tiny ass 5mm stock valves are pretty damn good, but whatever. There is a great improvement over the stock exhaust valves though.
Maybe the term should be "unported" rather than stock, as that paints a more direct/clear picture. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_As far as the lifters, you see how 'jittery' the dyno gets at high revs? One possibility is the lifters. 

That's true, that's the only thing I could think of when I kept seeing that little flutter up top during the pulls. One of the reasons as to why a solid lifter set up is wise, not just looking for more performance, but rather to secure the valvetrain a bit more in the upper RPM's. With all that loot spent on the build I would hate to see the result of the top end taking a sh*t at 85K.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Now I hear it's both intake and exhaust where replaced for Supertech valves.
I am not sure why the intakes were replaced for just a stock diameter as those tiny ass 5mm stock valves are pretty damn good, but whatever. There is a great improvement over the stock exhaust valves though.
Maybe the term should be "unported" rather than stock, as that paints a more direct/clear picture. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
That's true, that's the only thing I could think of when I kept seeing that little flutter up top during the pulls. One of the reasons as to why a solid lifter set up is wise, not just looking for more performance, but rather to secure the valvetrain a bit more in the upper RPM's. 

Stock head casting, upgraded valvetrain -







.
Joe did all 5 valves with the Supertech valves - he said they are stronger, lighter and ultimately flow better than the stockers. I trust him on that







. 
Yeah there's no reason not go solid, I'd rather not have shrapnel flying around the motor.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Stock head casting, upgraded valvetrain...

O.K. true, but here is how it is listed at times, even on page 1 of this thread...

_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Head - stock AEB 20v head


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Eh, splitting hairs.
The only other thing I can think of the cause of the jitter is the O2 correction being a little loose. Only 2 ve bins up there and the wideband is doing the rest.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Eh, splitting hairs.
The only other thing I can think of the cause of the jitter is the O2 correction being a little loose. Only 2 ve bins up there and the wideband is doing the rest.









As soon as you have the MS2 ready to go in - you tell me.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_I have an Autometer 10k rpm tach in the car already - next up - solid lifters and cams in a ported 20v head.

why going solid lifters?
I mean, that's RIDICULOUS power on hydros.
I mean, I understand you can cam the **** out of a set of solid lifters, but the fact that it's even RUNNING at 9000rpms is astounding
how are you not floating that **** into pistons!?
I mean, I don't assume you'll try going any higher into the RPM range with the solids... but what are you gonna do with cams? 308°?
I assume you don't drive this car daily anymore








and a stock head.
Shall we all estimate how much peak wheel power it makes with cams, solids and a ported head?
I'm gonna estimate 225whp without knowing what kind of cam he's going to try.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_
why going solid lifters?
I mean, that's RIDICULOUS power on hydros.
I mean, I understand you can cam the **** out of a set of solid lifters, but the fact that it's even RUNNING at 9000rpms is astounding
how are you not floating that **** into pistons!?
I mean, I don't assume you'll try going any higher into the RPM range with the solids... but what are you gonna do with cams? 308°?
I assume you don't drive this car daily anymore








and a stock head.
Shall we all estimate how much peak wheel power it makes with cams, solids and a ported head?
I'm gonna estimate 225whp without knowing what kind of cam he's going to try.

Still daily driven - for a year on the 20v up to last Friday - however now it's going to become a toy now that we picked up a 3rd car. Solid lifters for the peace of mind of repeatedly going to 9k, don't want a lifter failing and causing the motor to frag.




_Modified by WolfGTI at 12:43 PM 11-19-2007_


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Chapel)*

I wouldnt go w/ bigger cams than he already has w/ the 20v head...and the power seems to drop off a bit up there. I'd just leave the valvetrain alone as well. adjusting solid lifters sucks. especially 20 of them.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*Re: (twopointone)*

oh ok.
So, not doing a solid lifter swap for the extra cam, just for the fact that 9K rpms + hydro lifters = eventual failure.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Eh, splitting hairs.

Really, how so?
As expected, I did receive an IM after I made a post/reply about this. I replied with a very good reason as to why the facts should be very clear and not vauge in post topics and conversation.
There is a difference between stock valves and using aftermarket valves, especially when you look at the fatter stem sodium filled exhaust valves. I was just looking to get it straight as when you read through all of this it gets a bit misleading. I mean hell, one guy in here thought it had stock cams for crying out loud!
I would consider any of that spitting hairs, Mendra doesn't have anything to lose except maybe social status among forum readers and peers. Joe on the other hand does, his work and results are the base of his business. When it comes to headwork that is one thing, aside from all the racing, that has put his work and the shop on the map.
That's just me though, I guess other people really couldn't care.
I'll step down and let it run it's course.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by billyVR6 at 1:18 PM 11-19-2007_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
I would consider any of that spitting hairs, Mendra doesn't have anything to lose except maybe social status among forum readers and peers. Joe on the other hand does, his work and results are the base of his business. When it comes to headwork that is one thing, aside from all the racing, that has put his work and the shop on the map.
_Modified by billyVR6 at 1:18 PM 11-19-2007_

I don't consider it splitting hairs - proper documentation is always good. 
As regards social status - lol that made me choke on my root beer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
Really, how so?


I see how what I wrote could be misleading, and I wouldn't want that. Though it would be quite a fairy tail to have a head with stock springs, valves and cams up in the 9k range. Well, if it isn't a Honda.


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
Two things - xKROMx's motor doesn't run on pump gas and isn't a daily driven motor - both of which mine are. 


Great numbers man you should be happy!
to clarify a few things the dyno graph Posted in the past, My engine was on 100 uni-col fuel the head was ported mildly as it was one of my first a long time ago,it used stock valve train components on everything and was still hydraulic,It reved to 8.600 most days.
Now my car was not technically daily driven,true. The only reason being is I did not want to go to jail.My engine idled like a stock car,and was very drivable.
as for reliability lets look at these numbers
I drove the previous engine in 10 complete track days consisting of two days with 5 sessions per day of a 30-40 min session,
for arguments sake I will say the average track I ran on was 2 miles miles per lap(some larger some smaller) , I would normally do 20-30 laps per session which @ 25 laps that is 100 miles per session that's 1000 miles per weekend. If my math is correct that is 10.000 Miles(give or take a few for the varience from track to track) on a highly strung out RACE engine that never saw time beneath 7,000 RPM.for 30 mins straight @ at time.(these number are taken from my logger in the ECU,for time on track)
reliable.........Maybe.
I torn my engine down for inspection and there was really no need to do so I could have kept running this engine but I had other plans as most of you are well aware of by now.
Once again I would like to congratulate you on your achievement it's one of if not the highest HP 20v N/A cars I have ever seen keep up the good work.
~Jarod.


_Modified by X K R O M X at 12:15 PM 11-19-2007_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

Jarod - thanks for the compliments. 
I was just pointing out your motor is pretty much track focused, where as I went with a lower comp ratio for daily pump gas driveability.


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_Jarod - thanks for the compliments. 
I was just pointing out your motor is pretty much track focused, where as I went with a lower comp ratio for daily pump gas driveability.

No sweat!
I did not see it in here or maybe I missed it what cams are currently in the car?


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_
No sweat!
I did not see it in here or maybe I missed it what cams are currently in the car?


Kent 293* Intake - 9.65mm lift
Kent 295* Exhaust - 11.00 mm lift.


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
Kent 293* Intake - 9.65mm lift
Kent 295* Exhaust - 11.00 mm lift.

what about duration? as the lift is a limiting factor in your engine and the duration is the only substitute that I know of to flow more air,then you get more overlap.
that is interesting because the lift converted to inches is 9.65 millimeters = 0.37992126 inches (this is on the intake BTW)
Kent must use a different base line on the cut of the lobes on their cams? I only say this because the maximum lift on that head is 3.40" before the lobes contact the head.



_Modified by X K R O M X at 1:16 PM 11-19-2007_


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

These are the specs from Kent's site for my present hydro cams.
*Application Power Band Cam Lift(mm) Valve Lift(mm) Duration Timing Full Lift VC (mm) LTDC Required Parts *
Supersport 2500-7000 I 9.65 E 11.30 I 9.65 E 11.30 I 293 Deg E 295 Deg 38/75 76/39 I 108 Deg E 108 Deg 0.00 I 2.74mm E 2.74mm N/A 

The solid lifter cams I am looking @ are CAT cams.











_Modified by WolfGTI at 3:54 PM 11-19-2007_


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## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_
what about duration? as the lift is a limiting factor in your engine and the duration is the only substitute that I know of to flow more air,then you get more overlap.
that is interesting because the lift converted to inches is 9.65 millimeters = 0.37992126 inches (this is on the intake BTW)
Kent must use a different base line on the cut of the lobes on their cams? I only say this because the maximum lift on that head is 3.40" before the lobes contact the head.


_Modified by X K R O M X at 1:16 PM 11-19-2007_

I live in the metric world,so maybe i misunderstand inches,but that must be quite a lift (3.40 inch)








Kent can't use very different base circle on a hydro cam,due to filling of the hydro element.
However,most 20v race engines with SOLID lifters here in Europe very often use regrinded cams.
Most "on the shelf" cams for 20v are made for Turbo,not NA


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (NORSK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_
I live in the metric world,so maybe i misunderstand inches,but that must be quite a lift (3.40 inch)








Kent can't use very different base circle on a hydro cam,due to filling of the hydro element.
However,most 20v race engines with SOLID lifters here in Europe very often use regrinded cams.
Most "on the shelf" cams for 20v are made for Turbo,not NA

sorry my bad that should be .340" inch.....lol


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

I was envisioning a valve opening 3 inches, and the cam lobe that caused it hahaha


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_I was envisioning a valve opening 3 inches, and the cam lobe that caused it hahaha

Sad part is I clicked on Mendra build thread to look @ his pistons.
3" would need some serious lobe


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