# SuperCharger or Turbo?? Not sure



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Ok i was thinking of a supercharger because it is like $4000, and it would be easy to do because no extra parts are needed like a new clutch. But since people say it is best if you buy the Stg.2 also which i will do eventually like in 2009... is this a better plan then waiting for enough money to buy a turbo and do all that stuff? I only want around 300whp or so. and VF seems like a good choice?? 

Thanks, Shat


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: SuperCharger or Turbo?? Not sure (PYRO31888)*

u can do turbo for same or cheaoer price


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: SuperCharger or Turbo?? Not sure (GoKart_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoKart_16v* »_u can do turbo for same or cheaoer price
 Yeah but wouldnt it take longer and stuff.. .. plus more money because you have to change the clutch. I mean i know that the VF charger would be more money in the long run... but i thought it was more reliable and safer and stuff...?


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## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: SuperCharger or Turbo?? Not sure (PYRO31888)*

Please use the search button. I will say it nicely before 20 others jump in and say it not such a nice manner. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: SuperCharger or Turbo?? Not sure (JETTSET)*

if i'm not mistaken, your stock clutch should be be good for about 300whp http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif also boost can be addicting, with a turbo setup there is always room to grow


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

why would i search if this is a personal question? I want to let people know where "I" am coming from not just some other user. I needed to know somethings that others did not ask...but anyway is it a good idea to go with VF if i dont plan to RACE my car like at the strip??


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

turbo is cheaper...does NOT have to do a clutch diff etc to start out, WAY easier to upgrade and WAY better power potental....300hp on a SC is going to be tuff. without spending MORE money..
kinetic stage 2 setup....done deal.


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

For me its more about putting the power to the ground. Just about everyone that owns a Kinetic turbo kit says 1st and 2nd are pretty much useless. Full boost at 3k is not a good thing on a front wheel drive car.
Just recently VF was offering up their stage 2 SC kits for around 3k. I have no regrets my VF kit.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (abt cup)*

no regrets but not much for power potential either....very limited...
SC is nice for 230 to 250 hp and daily drving.


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
SC is nice for 230 to 250 hp and daily drving.

Thats exactly what I use it for.








Hoping to up it in the spring with the 10psi pulley.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (abt cup)*

thats perfect then http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif SC are great for daily driving fun
BUT for 300hp....SC is not the way to go...and thats what he stated before.


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Didn't Steve hit 275 with his stage 2.5 VF kit? Thats pretty close to 300.


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## Lew_Dog (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_Didn't Steve hit 275 with his stage 2.5 VF kit? Thats pretty close to 300.









I'm hitting 280 whp with my stage 2....







Still running the stock clutch and diff too with no issues, even after racing this summer... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Added a WMI kit, so now I need to re-dyno...



_Modified by Lew_Dog at 4:43 PM 12-27-2007_


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## charmcitydub (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: (Lew_Dog)*

in my opinion the vf stage 2 is a perfect set up for a front wheel drive vdub.it feels way more powerful than a stock vr,and i like the consistant pull it has to redline.i have driven a couple of turbo'ed vr's and the supercharger felt better to me.

_Modified by charmcitydub at 3:19 PM 12-27-2007_


_Modified by charmcitydub at 3:20 PM 12-27-2007_


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

yeah thats what i originally wanted... is 250 but no i did not write that in this forum. But are you guys talking wheel horse power? because if you are then that is excatly what i am looking for. I just want some extra horse power (nothing crazy) that a chip, CAI, exhaust can not give. i mean its not like its the end of the world if i dont like it... i mean i do have a 99 Z28.. so if i ever want over 350HP then i will just turbo that.. Sounds good to me!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by PYRO31888 at 8:17 PM 12-27-2007_


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

If you have a 24v...you should get more than that.
If you look above a few posts...Lew Dog is getting 280whp out of his stage two. He may have other mods too.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_If you have a 24v...you should get more than that.
If you look above a few posts...Lew Dog is getting 280whp out of his stage two. He may have other mods too.
 Yeah i know but thats a good thing... i just dont want like over 350 or even 300.. so would you guys say that a VF is the best option since you kinda know what my situation is and where i am coming from?


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

I would actually find a SC'd car and a turbo'd car. Take a ride in both and decide from there. Make sure the power levels on both cars a similar...or you won't get an accurate feel for the FI kits.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_I would actually find a SC'd car and a turbo'd car. Take a ride in both and decide from there. Make sure the power levels on both cars a similar...or you won't get an accurate feel for the FI kits. 
Thats kinda hard... but i know of a guy with an MK3 SC and another guy with an MK3 Turbo.. both i think are pushing 400 (i think)


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## Lew_Dog (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_If you have a 24v...you should get more than that.
If you look above a few posts...Lew Dog is getting 280whp out of his stage two. He may have other mods too.

The only other performance mods I had when I dyno'd 280 was a Techtonics 2.5" exhaust and colder plugs. You can run stock exhaust, but a 2.5" or bigger cat back would help with performance... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Jetex makes a 2.75" and MAX PSI makes a 3" for our cars...


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (Lew_Dog)*

I have a GHL


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## Lew_Dog (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_I have a GHL

Well..Nobody's perfect...


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_I would actually find a SC'd car and a turbo'd car. Take a ride in both and decide from there. Make sure the power levels on both cars a similar...or you won't get an accurate feel for the FI kits. 


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_Thats kinda hard... but i know of a guy with an MK3 SC and another guy with an MK3 Turbo.. both i think are pushing 400 (i think) 

The best thing you can do was stated by abt cup. You need to get a ride in both setups and talk to the owners with their likes and dislikes about their supercharger or turbo setups. Most people I've seen running a supercharger end up ditching it and going turbo after they get hit with the power bug. C2 has a stage 1 setup for $4000 so I wouldn't rule that out entirely. You could add a FMIC later and up the boost for more power. 
I'm local to you but my car is currently off the road for the winter. If you haven't made your decision by spring time shoot me an IM and I can give you a ride in a turbo car with power from 300 whp - 450 whp if you would like. Best of luck with your decision.


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*

your clutch will be fine with either FI setup as long as youre below 300 or so HP.
superchargers are nice and smooth and do make power up high.
turbos are usually less smooth(with a smaller turbo) and make lots of mid rpm power.
it all depends on what you want. 
as far as reliability, ive heard issues with both.
sc cars throw belts sometimes (not often)
turbo cars have other issues depending on how good the install was usually.
i have had no real issues with my turbo kit (kinetics plus upgrades) since i installed it amost 10k miles ago.
i run a stock clutch
i love that my power starts at about 2800 rpms and that i get full boost at abotu 4k rpms. 
i did not want to rev my car to 6k or more to get peak power.
my car passes like a much more powerful car because my boost hits early. i have yet to dyno my car, but it feels good. im assuming in close to 300 wheel. probably just under on a real dyno (mustang, or dyno dynamics) or just a little over on a dynojet.(big numbers dyno).


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

VW says that the VF is more reliable and wont blow your car up.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_Didn't Steve hit 275 with his stage 2.5 VF kit? Thats pretty close to 300.









274whp http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif It is on C2 software though.
I made this decision a year ago and went Supercharger. I absolutely love it and have no regrets. I run 12's in an almost full weight car. I keep traction in every gear except a little spin in first. Once the initial bugs were worked out I've had zero issues and don't expect to. It was the right choice for me.
For over 300whp, dyno queen, power hungry, or a serious drag racer 9's, 10's, lower 11's, PLEASE go turbo from the get go. For everyone else consider Turbo and SC. Both have good and bad points. SC is gentler on the drivetrain and will have ALOT less traction issues. Something to consider in a FWD car w/ 205mm wide tires. Turbo will have a much stronger midrange, is alot easier to upgrade, and has a much higher power potential. 
I may go Turbo at some point as well but only for a drag car sice I'll be able to put the power down w/ big slicks. Street car, the SC gives me all the power I can put down reliably.
Research it. Drive both. Then buy a VF stage 2 on sale or Kinetic kit and enjoy.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_VW says that the VF is more reliable and wont blow your car up.

Plenty haven't blown anything with turbos either but it IS more likely you'll hurt your car w/ a turbo kit.
1) The boost is so easy to turn up. Both a blessing and a curse. Many can't resist and turn it up until something goes. Clutch, diff, axle headgasket, motor, etc.
2) The torque curve. Even at the same HP level a turbo makes more torque, it comes on suddenly, and much lower in the rpm range. It's harder on the drivetrain than a centrifugal SC. Don't let anyone tell ya different








That being said, many have run low boost turbos reliably for years. On the flip side many have broken things.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks a lot man, I pretty sure about going with the VF supercharger because i still want it to be a daily with out crazy horse power that i will need slicks just to get traction.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

This for the 03'? Is that a 24 valve? If so I think stage 2 on those is ~280whp. If that's enough for you then you'll be plenty happy and enjoy stock like reliability. Problem is if you wan't more you'll have to sell it whereas w/ turbo you can upgrade. Think long and hard about it. Good luck.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_This for the 03'? Is that a 24 valve? If so I think stage 2 on those is ~280whp. If that's enough for you then you'll be plenty happy and enjoy stock like reliability. Problem is if you wan't more you'll have to sell it whereas w/ turbo you can upgrade. Think long and hard about it. Good luck.
 Yeah but they have the stageIII coming out whenever... probably will be out by the time im ready to upgrade.. that is if i want to.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

Cool. Wait until a sale if you can. You'll love it. I would still try and ride in a SC and Turbo VR before you buy so you know what you are getting. I'm right outside Philly but mine is down for the winter.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_Cool. Wait until a sale if you can. You'll love it. I would still try and ride in a SC and Turbo VR before you buy so you know what you are getting. I'm right outside Philly but mine is down for the winter.
 oh ok... yeah i wont be buying until the summer.


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## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*

Talking to Steve (slc92) on here made my decision a lot easier, I too decided on the VF kit. Still working a few bugs out unrelated to the actual kit, but I am very happy with the decision. If you feel as if your car is peppy now, you will be surprised what an extra 100 whp can make! I also wanted the peace of mind that my car won't need fixing every other week, and I totally believe it won't. I honestly barely ever hit boost, and seldom go above 6k, so the most boost I generally see is 6-7psi. Its nice to know its there, but I only drive it hard when I deem it necessary (which some days is more than others) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_Talking to Steve (slc92) on here made my decision a lot easier, I too decided on the VF kit. Still working a few bugs out unrelated to the actual kit, but I am very happy with the decision. If you feel as if your car is peppy now, you will be surprised what an extra 100 whp can make! I also wanted the peace of mind that my car won't need fixing every other week, and I totally believe it won't. I honestly barely ever hit boost, and seldom go above 6k, so the most boost I generally see is 6-7psi. Its nice to know its there, but I only drive it hard when I deem it necessary (which some days is more than others) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
 Oh you talking to him before? Ok. First time i read it i was confused but yeah i get it now... tell me something... what kinds of cars have you raced? Beaten? Came close to winning? im really interested.(street races)


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_SC is gentler on the drivetrain and will have ALOT less traction issues. 

The same can be said for turbo cars with large turbine housings. I was able to control boost and wheel spin easily with part throttle using a 60-1 .81 turbo.


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

i have a huge turbo'd 20v rabbit MK1 drag car, and that is for the strip.
my MK3 Vortech V1 S-trim SC'd VR6 street car is 265 WHP, and been on the car RELIABLY for over 112k miles, yes, 112,000 miles of use. 8.5psi non-intercooled, AMS kit. and it sounds really good, too.
for the street, the SC is real nice, like Steve is telling you.... so smooth of a ride.... i have both ends of the spectrum covered, and wouldnt have it any other way.


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## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_ Oh you talking to him before? Ok. First time i read it i was confused but yeah i get it now... tell me something... what kinds of cars have you raced? Beaten? Came close to winning? im really interested.(street races)









I'll be honest, I haven't raced anyone in it since the S/C, partially due to foul weather (put it in less than a week before our first snow) and also because most of my travels include my 19 month daughter. I will say that it has a great deal of passing power and pulls above 4k like a champ. I reach 80 mph without thinking twice, and I'm sure this kit will leave any stock/mostly stock Honda in the dust, and keep up with alot of the "performance/sports cars" out there. I'm not a big street racer 'my car is faster than yours' kind of guy. I have owned the car for 8 years and wanted something to bring a little more life to it. It started out as a 2.0 and has became a S/C VR which is quite a leap in my books (115hp-280hp) and honestly it still feels and drives like a normal car should, just faster than some. I really would recommend it if you are looking for something to throw in and forget about for the most part, but like it states above, if you are a power junkie and want the fastest car on the block regardless of the cost, go turbo.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tekstepvr6* »_
The same can be said for turbo cars with large turbine housings. I was able to control boost and wheel spin easily with part throttle using a 60-1 .81 turbo.

It lessens it but you still are either not spooled or spooled right? How many rpms does it take to go fom zero boost to full boost is my point. I see boost around 2k rpm but don't reach full boost until 7k. What turbo spools that slow? I'm sure your torque curve w/ the 60-1 .81 still looks nothing like mine. At 11-12 psi you would probably be making ~280-300WTQ at ~4krpm vs. my 234wtq @ 5krpm. The same thing that makes chargers not so impressive in the mids, makes them reliable drivetrain wise. They just don't break anything b/c of the lower, linear, high rpm torque curve.


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*

Well the 60-1 .81 seemed to build boost very linear like a supercharger setup (About 10 psi by 3200) compared to the other turbo setups I've seen with small turbine housing making peak trq #'s at 3200-3500 rpms.
Here's one of the 1st dyno's of my car before fixing the boost controller.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*

Look at your torque curve though from 3000 rpm to 4400 rpm. You go from 140ft-lbs to 385ft-lbs. That's what causes you to lose traction and some to break things. We are at two diff. power levels but here is my dyno for comparison. There is no real vertical part of the torque curve. Hence no loss of traction and nothing broken. True, you can always modulate the throttle to control wheelspin but I would rather mash the gas and use everything I paid for. Just my take. No turbo is going to spool gradually over a 5k rpm range like a centrifugal SC. That's good or bad depending on your point of view.
I just don't get the desire for torque in a FWD street car w/ 205mm tires. You can't use it and when you finally hook in 3rd you break something. Silly kids







To each his own I guess. 










_Modified by slc92 at 7:26 AM 12-30-2007_


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_True, you can always modulate the throttle to control wheelspin but * I would rather mash the gas and use everything I paid for.* Just my take. 

this is an excellent way to put this statement.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*

im getting pretty tired of hearing the too much torque busts things argument really.
its pretty hard to break parts below 10psi on a turbo. i know because i drive the crap out of my car and its not broken.
if you actually know how to shift and have taken care of your stuff, it shouldnt break at 10 or less psi.
by looking at the sc dyno plot it appears that the car feels stock til 4k rpms. that is not what i want. 
by 4k rpms, most other cars will have already whooped your ass. im not saying that a SC kit sucks. they do not suck at all. they are pretty neat, but not anywhere near where i wanted to be.
i start boost at 2900 rpms or so. i get full boost near 4k. and i have a "small" turbo. if i changed my hotside for $300 or so, i could move my boost curve up 800 rpms or so and have a similar curve to that of a SC car, except i would make considerably more power.
as for VW saying the sc setup is better. that is funny since they wont warranty the car either way. 
as have stated before. i dont like to drive my car with 130k miles on it up in the 6000rpm range. so, my setup is great for keeping my revs down and still having good power.
on an 03 24v gli, the sc will work ok. but the car will not be fast.
i have dogged out stage 2 r 32s in my car. easily.
as for vf making the stage3 kits, they already did and pulled the stage 3 and stage 4 because of charger issues. i know this because my buddy had a stage 4 and it blew bigtime at the r gtg in cali.
so, long story short. take your time. choose wisely. nothing is fool proof. 
your car will absolutely not be as reliable as stock after you put aftermarket FI on it. PERIOD. its not possible to claim this. anyone that does is smoking crack.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

The dyno I posted shows two SC pulls w/ diff. chips/pullies so no stock lines there. FWIW at 4000rpm my car is making ~160whp vs.~115whp for a stock 12v. Torque is ~215 vs. ~150 for a stock car. Just illustrating that while it def. does not have the pull of a turbo in the mids it's not even close to stock.
As for ass whooping. What rpm do you race at? I'm never below 4k and neither should anyone else be. Downshift








It's the consensus on here that turbos are better and SC's are a waste. I just state reasons why they make sense in a street car for certain people. Not everyone want's 400WTQ in a fwd street car. I run 12's w/out all that torque.
As for the Torque argument. There isn't one. The more you have, the faster it comes on, and the lower in the rpm range it does the harder it is on your motor and trans and the more you'll spin. There is no right and wrong answer. Everthing is a trade-off however








jhayesvw- Any times on your car? It sounds pretty beastly http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
jhayesvw- Any times on your car? It sounds pretty beastly http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

no times on my car. i dont think that 1/4 mile racing is a real form of motorsport.
i know that hundreds of thousands would disagree, but just as many would agree too.
my car is by no mens a beast. i wish it was sometimes, but its not. i did however do my entire kit with FMIC for $2300 and thats not bad. installed it myself and have not had any real issues with it since.
sure i had some small install quirks, but the car has ran well and driven perfectly since day one.
its like you say, different setups for different desires.
but i still dont think that more torque down low will hurt your drivetrain any more than up high. if my wheels spin, they arent in trouble of breaking anything unless i hit a bump while theyre spinning.
if i subject my trans to 400 ft lbs of torque, it shouldnt matter where it happens. however, i do think that you are right that SC cars dont hurt your trans as much since they just dont make the power/torque that Turbo cars do. 
C2 makes a 24v kit that would rock the OPs socks off. he should really consider all options and do more research before he drops the bones on either a turbo kit or sc kit and is disappointed, either way.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

$2300. Nice. I'm $4200 all in, everything brand new, no IC. Not bad for a SC setup. Could have made the same power for less w/ a Kinetic kit but I wanted the SC so it wasn't just most hp for the $$.
As for drag racing. I respect your opinion but to say it's not a real form of motorsport is a little narrowminded IMO. It's my main focus b/c it's cheaper and there are 3 tracks within an hour of my house and I happen to enjoy it. Alot of knowledge and effort goes into learning what works and what doesn't w/ the car and driving just like the other motorsports. You have a ZERO margin of error. To win you must run perfect. You can take one turn sub-par and still win a road race. It's not better or worse just different requiring alot of practice to get good at it.
Besides, what other form of racing can the average guy do w/ a street car? With autocross and HPDE you aren't really racing. SCCA is a whole different ballgame of $$ and requirements for the car.
Have you ever been down a track? You might enjoy it.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

I did some crazy back road driving today... ass end all hanging on the other side of the road and stuff.. got my front wheels off the ground... i need to lower my car and if i had a SC it would probably make it sooo much better!!


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Damn... they have a 10% off sale going on right now too! But im not ready to buy yet.. so maybe they will have a summer sale? Hey it says that it is pre tuned.. so does that mean that i do not have to put it on the dyno and tune it?(Probably a dumb question but i just want to make sure)


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*

ive been down a track multiple times. never liked it.
its just as much about HP as skill. you can misshift and still win. watch pinks. happens all the time
as for SCCA autocross, thats at least as real as 1/4 mile. winning is as close as .001 seconds over 1/2 mile to 3/4 of a mile. thats 3x longer of a race than a drag race. going fast in a straight line can be done in a chevy caprice with NOS and you'll run fast. with an automatic. no thanks, but, to each their own. 
i prefer road courses and just fun backroad driving. 
back to the topic of the thread though.
SC vs. Turbo
different strokes for different folks.


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_I did some crazy back road driving today... ass end all hanging on the other side of the road and stuff.. got my front wheels off the ground... i need to lower my car and if i had a SC it would probably make it sooo much better!!

Sounds like your headed for an early grave if your plan to drive like that with forced induction.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tekstepvr6* »_
Sounds like your headed for an early grave if your plan to drive like that with forced induction.








 Nah... it was just a really steep drop that i did not expect. But i didnt even feel my ass coming out from under me but the other drivers behind said it was.. thank god for front wheel drive. lol


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Is a sprinter less talented or skilled than a distance runner? The drag race is shorter and may not require as many diff. skills as other racing but the margin for error is shortened. Sorry, you can't win a competitive race w/ a bad launch or a missed shift. Power and winning races is the same for drag racing as it is for all the others. Setup and driving can overcome a power disadvantage to a point. Similar setups and drivers and the better car wins. I fail to see the difference. Jeff Gordon would look just as stupid in John Forces car as Force would in his. Sorry this is def. off-topic.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Ok... so all in all 
Turbo= A lot of HP options/drag race style/wheels spin forever./not as much reliability even when built correctly...
SC= Enough HP to keep up with most cars/BackWoodsDriving/best for a Daily Driver/more reliability if built correctly...
Is that kinda right?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_ Nah... it was just a really steep drop that i did not expect. But i didnt even feel my ass coming out from under me but the other drivers behind said it was.. thank god for front wheel drive. lol


Dude. I know I'm gonna sound like your dad here but do yourself and everyone else a favor and get into drag racing, autocross, or HPDE events on closed tracks. Big fines, raised insurance rates, accidents, and dead people aren't good things. Especially when you go FI. You won't be able to use your car to it's potential legaly or safely on the street.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Dude. I know I'm gonna sound like your dad here but do yourself and everyone else a favor and get into drag racing, autocross, or HPDE events on closed tracks. Big fines, raised insurance rates, accidents, and dead people aren't good things. Especially when you go FI. You won't be able to use your car to it's potential legaly or safely on the street. 
 Yeah i know i mean im not going that fast... i should get into the 'Track' though. I mean i do not go as fast as the guys on DEBADGED go. plus i do not speed when i am alone(when i speed i will accelerate to whatever speed i want then slow down right away its just a lil boost of adrenaline i have to get rid of once in a while). I will usually follow someone and hope that i see there brake lights and i put my brakes on before the cop sees me. and just stops him(the guy i was following). lol sounds mean but whatever.










_Modified by PYRO31888 at 1:09 AM 12-31-2007_


----------



## nick manning (Dec 11, 2007)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_If you have a 24v...you should get more than that.
If you look above a few posts...Lew Dog is getting 280whp out of his stage two. He may have other mods too.

right, but with a powerband that allows him to trap 102. 
do the math.


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (nick manning)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nick manning* »_
right, but with a powerband that allows him to trap 102. 
do the math. 


I trap 113mph with that same powerband.







Faster than alot of Kinetic VRT's . The power in the mids is useless if you can't put it down.


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*

what does trap mean? Im confused










_Modified by PYRO31888 at 1:58 AM 12-31-2007_


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_what does trap mean? Im confused









_Modified by PYRO31888 at 1:18 AM 12-31-2007_

The speed you cross the finish line at. It's actually an avg. speed over the last 60ft of your run. It's a better indicator of how fast a car is than ET(your actual time) b/c ET is highly effected by your launch(driver skill). A fast car will still trap high w/ a crappy driver if he can shift. A slower car can get a decent time w/ a good launch(60ft. time).


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
The speed you cross the finish line at. It's actually an avg. speed over the last 60ft of your run. It's a better indicator of how fast a car is than ET(your actual time) b/c ET is highly effected by your launch(driver skill). A fast car will still trap high w/ a crappy driver if he can shift. A slower car can get a decent time w/ a good launch(60ft. time).
 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thank you very much for explaining that and i guess it wasnt such a dumb question after all.










_Modified by PYRO31888 at 12:41 PM 12-31-2007_


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_Ok... so all in all 
Turbo= A lot of HP options/drag race style/wheels spin forever./not as much reliability even when built correctly...
SC= Enough HP to keep up with most cars/BackWoodsDriving/best for a Daily Driver/more reliability if built correctly...
Is that kinda right?

no your kindof wrong.
and i almost have that trap speed in my 79 rabbit non turbo. with 132hp


_Modified by nothing-leaves-stock at 8:26 AM 12-31-2007_


----------



## hogis (Jan 23, 2005)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

What kind of times does the kinetic kit put down on the track?
Does anybody have any numbers?
Happy new year to you all http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
slc92 - Do you plan on taking your S/C even further? It looks like your on 
the right track


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_Ok... so all in all 
Turbo= A lot of HP options/drag race style/wheels spin forever./not as much reliability even when built correctly...
SC= Enough HP to keep up with most cars/BackWoodsDriving/best for a Daily Driver/more reliability if built correctly...
Is that kinda right?

You could make an argument for what you said. I wouldn't say a Turbo can't be as reliable at lower boost levels. IF you leave it alone. You are a young guy. You absolutely WILL NOT leave it alone. I guarantee it. Mainly b/c of that you'll have more issues with it than a SC. You will have more power in the midrange but traction problems as a result. Those are the main differences IMO.
Search posts of guys that have had both for awhile. Plenty of stripped 3rd gears, blown diffs, and clutches w/ the turbo guys. I couldn't find a SC that broke anything. Yes, part of the reason is the Turbo makes more power but seriously. How much do you need? Are you a serious drag racer? I run 12's w/ a VF kit, chip, cams, and exhaust. I don't need anymore power on the street and I don't have to deal w/ broken drivetrain parts. A Kinetic kit @ 8psi will be just as reliable but will you leave it there. I knew I wouldn't and limited myself on purpose w/ the SC. Why? B/C anymore power in a FWD car w/ out slicks doesn't make any sense. There is a reason no manufacturer makes a FWD car w/ over ~270hp. You can't put it down


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
You could make an argument for what you said. I wouldn't say a Turbo can't be as reliable at lower boost levels. IF you leave it alone. You are a young guy. You absolutely WILL NOT leave it alone. I guarantee it. Mainly b/c of that you'll have more issues with it than a SC. You will have more power in the midrange but traction problems as a result. Those are the main differences IMO.
Search posts of guys that have had both for awhile. Plenty of stripped 3rd gears, blown diffs, and clutches w/ the turbo guys. I couldn't find a SC that broke anything. Yes, part of the reason is the Turbo makes more power but seriously. How much do you need? Are you a serious drag racer? I run 12's w/ a VF kit, chip, cams, and exhaust. I don't need anymore power on the street and I don't have to deal w/ broken drivetrain parts. A Kinetic kit @ 8psi will be just as reliable but will you leave it there. I knew I wouldn't and limited myself on purpose w/ the SC. Why? B/C anymore power in a FWD car w/ out slicks doesn't make any sense. There is a reason no manufacturer makes a FWD car w/ over ~270hp. You can't put it down









 
Wow i agree with everything youve just said...not only do i agree but i pretty much said the same things to myself. lol 
I dont know if i said this allready but if 280 hp is not enough then i could always up grade to the STAGE III because by the time i want to upgrade they should be out with the Stg. III.


----------



## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_
Turbo= A lot of HP options/drag race style/wheels spin forever./not as much reliability even when built correctly...
SC= Enough HP to keep up with most cars/BackWoodsDriving/best for a Daily Driver/more reliability if built correctly...
Is that kinda right?

We have EIP to thank for the vortex misconception that turbo setups cannot be reliable. Band aid FMU fuel setup pushing stock injectors well past 100% duty cycle and a hack tune that rides the knock sensors isn't going to last on any car. Honestly how many people have had catastrophic failures when running the Kinetic turbo kits or C2 software when running safe boost levels? Either setup will be reliable if the build and tune are solid.


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tekstepvr6* »_
We have EIP to thank for the vortex misconception that turbo setups cannot be reliable. Band aid FMU fuel setup pushing stock injectors well past 100% duty cycle and a hack tune that rides the knock sensors isn't going to last on any car. Honestly how many people have had catastrophic failures when running the Kinetic turbo kits or C2 software when running safe boost levels? Either setup will be reliable if the build and tune are solid.
 Yeah but i know where you are coming from but for me personally i dont need that much horsepower... and i want my car to be reliable and get traction now i know that a turbo can give me all of those things but like the other guy said. i too want to limit myself


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

looks like youve made your decision http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
you wont be disappointed with your SC kit.
but you also would not be disappointed with a turbo kit too.
also, nobody has mentioned how much stronger the OPs trans is. he has an O2M. much stronger than the O2A.
my buddies R32 puts down well over 400 all wheel HP on his O2M, he drives it like he stole it and has not hurt his trans.
O2A is a piece of glass in comparison. LOL
SLC92. i hear what youre saying. and i said. Different strokes for different folks. i can agree to disagree.
but please dont spread rumors that turbo kits are unreliable or that they break your car. its just not true.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
only you can break your car. i'll bet you $100 that i could blow your trans in your car in 4 minutes or less.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

as for what turbo kits do in the 1/4.(possibly kinetic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsVqkNdh_Ok



_Modified by jhayesvw at 4:33 PM 12-31-2007_


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_
SLC92. i hear what youre saying. and i said. Different strokes for different folks. i can agree to disagree.
but please dont spread rumors that turbo kits are unreliable or that they break your car. its just not true.


All I ever said was that a turbo is more harsh on your motor and drivetrain than a centrifugal SC even at the same power level. There is also a chance of overboosting. That's a fact, not a rumor. Look at the two torque curves. Why is this even a debate? How soon and whether or not you break something will depend on power level and how you drive like you said. I don't have to look far to find examples. Jasonknezo had a SC ~10-12psi on his Corrado w/ no clutch issues. Recently switched to a Kinetic kit. Boom, I get an IM about replacing a clutch. VW1320 runs 11's in a SC VR on a stock clutch launching hard on slicks. Who runs an 11 w/ a turbo on a stock clutch? 
Why don't any car manufacturers offer dealer installed turbo kits for originally NA cars and cover them under warranty? Scion, Toyota, Mini, etc. all offer SC kits.
Turbos are great power adders. You made the right choice. They can be very reliable, but they aren't as easy on your car. Sorry


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Im drunk.. olol


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Why don't any car manufacturers offer dealer installed turbo kits for originally NA cars and cover them under warranty? Scion, Toyota, Mini, etc. all offer SC kits.
Turbos are great power adders. You made the right choice. They can be very reliable, but they aren't as easy on your car. Sorry









they are just as easy on your car if you dont drive like a douchebag.
as far as turbo kits being available from dealers, i dont know why. but it may be that turbos are too easy to hop up and make too much power. 
if youre responsible, a turbo kit is a good choice. if youre not, it can be very bad for you.
this debate could go forever. might as well call it quits. im done at this point. the OP has already decided on a SC. and that is cool. it'll be a good kit. its just not necessarily the best kit for everyone. no biggie.
oh. and i thnk that there are a couple people on here running 12s or low 13s on NA vr6s. so, its doable with weight reduction and some bolt ons, and great driving.
i just like my full interior too much. LOL. and dont like drag racing.
as for parts breaking. look around the forums. htere are lots of people with blown clutches, and broken gears that are not FI at all. just people that cant drive. they're out there. we all know that.










_Modified by jhayesvw at 12:11 AM 1-1-2008_


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Throwing in the towel as well. We are both repeating ourselves. Good luck w/ your car http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I have seen pics of it and it's really nice. I hear you on the weight thing. I left NA b/c I didn't wan't to gut my car to run a decent time.
To the OP. Good luck in whatever you choose. Stage 3 on top of what you paid for stage 1&2 will be pretty pricey. You could make more power for less with a turbo. Try and drive both before you buy. We can give you advice but only you can decide what's best for you.
I love my SC b/c it's been reliable even when beating the crap out of it at the track. I keep traction 99% of the time and it's as much power as I need for the street. Many feel the same about their turbo cars. Both will get the job done


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_Throwing in the towel as well. We are both repeating ourselves. Good luck w/ your car http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I have seen pics of it and it's really nice. I hear you on the weight thing. I left NA b/c I didn't wan't to gut my car to run a decent time.
To the OP. Good luck in whatever you choose. Stage 3 on top of what you paid for stage 1&2 will be pretty pricey. You could make more power for less with a turbo. Try and drive both before you buy. We can give you advice but only you can decide what's best for you.
I love my SC b/c it's been reliable even when beating the crap out of it at the track. I keep traction 99% of the time and it's as much power as I need for the street. Many feel the same about their turbo cars. Both will get the job done








 
Thanks guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I will probably post on this thread again when i get my SC or sooner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Lew_Dog (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_ 
Thanks guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I will probably post on this thread again when i get my SC or sooner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## majic (Mar 10, 2005)

I never expected a SC vs Turbo thread to get so philosophical


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (majic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majic* »_I never expected a SC vs Turbo thread to get so philosophical
 I know right? LOL http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

How does $3,800 + shipping (no tax) sound for the VF charger? 
And how about $1,000 for Install (guesstimite) 
Total would be some where around $4,850 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif ??


----------



## joshy--james--the 2nd (Aug 16, 2007)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

seeing the list is $4000 then shipping then est about 15 hours labor
normal shop is about 75 to 95 per hour...sound cheap to me










_Modified by joshy--james--the 2nd at 1:20 PM 1-14-2008_


----------



## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_How does $3,800 + shipping (no tax) sound for the VF charger? 
And how about $1,000 for Install (guesstimite) 
Total would be some where around $4,850 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif ??

1k seems high for an install.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_
1k seems high for an install. 

at 15 hours? normal shop rate is what? ave of 75 an hour at the lowest...so at 75 it would be $1125..thus making a est of 1000 fair.
plus the mk4 SC cars suck to install, i'd rather do a turbo install the a sc....anyday


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
at 15 hours? normal shop rate is what? ave of 75 an hour at the lowest...so at 75 it would be $1125..thus making a est of 1000 fair.
plus the mk4 SC cars suck to install, i'd rather do a turbo install the a sc....anyday

15 hours seems a bit much...I installed mine (MK3) and even with deleting the A/C and changing out the alternator it took less than 10 hours. I think I have heard estimates of around $600 to install it floating around on here somewhere, but of course its always going to vary...


----------



## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
at 15 hours? normal shop rate is what? ave of 75 an hour at the lowest...so at 75 it would be $1125..thus making a est of 1000 fair.
plus the mk4 SC cars suck to install, i'd rather do a turbo install the a sc....anyday

Mine was 650 out the door at VF...and that included two engine mounts.








At 1k, I'd rather try it myself.


_Modified by abt cup at 10:58 PM 1-14-2008_


----------



## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: (abt cup)*

installs for the vf kits are easy did mine my self took 4days. but 2 of them i had to go to work.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Well im not very good with cars... My uncle and I installed my CAI in about 3 1/2 hours. He works on his own cars, built his own engine and works on his 2 dragsters. But never went to school for Auto. Maybe ill see if he wants to help me out.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

honestly, not being mean at all...if it took 3.5 hours for you to install a cai...i wouldn't dare do a SC kit.


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

yeah... i was thinking .. not of really doing the VF kit but just thinking.


----------



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_ 
Thanks guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I will probably post on this thread again *when i get my SC* or sooner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Oh no. Famous last words. At least they were for me.


----------



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_
Mine was 650 out the door at VF...and that included two engine mounts.








At 1k, I'd rather try it myself.

_Modified by abt cup at 10:58 PM 1-14-2008_

Keep in mind VF can install their own setup with their eyes closed. My guess is at $650 they are still making plenty of money. 
Just a thought.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (nater)*

Oh... Is this what you mean? http://www.kmdtuning.com/ like that place??


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

He can barley get traction... Or atleast he will need new tires like every month.


----------



## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: SuperCharger or Turbo?? Not sure (PYRO31888)*

TURBO


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_He can barley get traction... Or atleast he will need new tires like every month.

its all in how you drive it.


----------



## Brandon12V (Jan 29, 2007)

*Re: (Brandon12V)*

oh and btw, the above statement was not biased in the favor towards turbo's by any means. i actually chose a supercharger instead.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Fastbreakstar22)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fastbreakstar22* »_
One of my favorite vids of all time by WeakVR: Hes a member on this forum too.
****Nater removed video****









HOLY WHEELSPIN! Even at 6psi? That car spun all of 1st and most of second at 10psi. I don't know how you guys do it man







If you find that annoying like I do go supercharger. Traction in all gears at 11psi and faster than what he ran in that vid.


_Modified by nater at 7:28 PM 2-9-2008_


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Brandon12V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Brandon12V* »_oh and btw, the above statement was not biased in the favor towards turbo's by any means. i actually chose a supercharger instead.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Oh, 3.94. That will def. make it worse. I rode in a Corrado w/ the 3.65 10psi VRT and it was still pretty bad. 1st gear useless, spun half of second. I bought my SC the next day. The owner of that Corrado has since added another 100 or so whp to a car that already spun 1st and 2nd. I guess it's an irrational addiction that I'll never understand. Keep adding power that you can't put down until something breaks







. No thanks.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

Hey guys... im sitting at work thinking about stuff and for some reason my decision of getting the SC just went back to debating














I have no clue why but I looked at some website and C2Motorsports has a 'working' website now so my decision is between these. I know we've went through this again and again but here we go: 
https://www.c2motorsports.net/....aspx 
http://www.awe-tuning.com/page...it24v


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

I have one question though.. would i just need a clutch if i go with C2?


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

Question for you. Have you ridden in or driven an VRT or VRSC? I wouldn't buy until you do. The powerbands are pretty different so it shouldn't take long to figure out which one you like. I went back and forth too until I drove/rode in both. 
I would do a clutch and LSD for any FWD FI kit. Especially w/ the Turbo. The LSD will lessen the wheelspin and get rid of a weak link in your trans.
For $4k, the C2 kit will make more power and be more upgradable. Also a much more involved install and traction will be a bigger issue. 


_Modified by slc92 at 12:03 PM 2-9-2008_


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_Question for you. Have you ridden in or driven an VRT or VRSC? I wouldn't buy until you do. The powerbands are pretty different so it shouldn't take long to figure out which one you like.* I went back and forth too until I drove/rode in both. *
I would do a clutch and LSD for any FWD FI kit. Especially w/ the Turbo. The LSD will lessen the wheelspin and get rid of a weak link in your trans.
 So which one did you end up buying?


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

I bought a VF stage 2 kit for alot of reasons. I liked the linear powerband. Still felt like a VR6. Just alot more power. Traction was also a big one for me. I can floor my car in first and second and only get slight wheelhop in first. That's in a 12 sec. car. The ~10psi VRT I was in was IMO annoying. Spinning all of first and most of second. Drivetrain stress was a big one as well. Turbos are USUALLY ok at lower boost but they are much harder on the drivetrain than a SC. 
The SC gives me all the power I can rationally use on the street and then some, I keep traction, and I haven't broken anything and don't think I ever will. My kit is modded though. 6psi SC kits just aren't that impressive. IMO you need like 10-12psi. I think even stage 2 on a 24V is only 8. LEWDog has a VF stage 2 on his 24valve. 
I did my VF stage 2 with stage 3 idler and pulley for ~$4150. I gained around 100whp so it was worth it. Stage 2 VF is anothe $1850. While both kits cost $4k you can upgrade the C2 to 500hp if you wan't to. Something to consider. With VF $5850 ~280whp and you are done.


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*

Yeah... But they are the same price. ANd isnt there a way to get better traction? Besides the basic stuff like tires?


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

you'll have plenty traction with the c2 kit @ 6psi w/ a 0,68 hotside on the PT61...i'm running 10psi on the i/c version and have no traction issues, mind you that's running big gummy dunlop winters with lots of grip...i suspect it maybe a bit different with summers...








don't let people who have no experience with the 24v and C2 tuning sway your decision....
look at this dyno of Ginster_DE...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3568609
i doubt many s/c cars could put down a tq curve as flat as that, nor power as linear as that...








oh...and if you're not an idiot your stock clutch will be fine...however watch out for blown cv's...a known issue on o2m axles esp if your lowered...


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_you'll have plenty traction with the c2 kit @ 6psi w/ a 0,68 hotside on the PT61...i'm running 10psi on the i/c version and have no traction issues, mind you that's running big gummy dunlop winters with lots of grip...i suspect it maybe a bit different with summers...








don't let people who have no experience with the 24v and C2 tuning sway your decision....
look at this dyno of Ginster_DE...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3568609
i doubt many s/c cars could put down a tq curve as flat as that, nor power as linear as that...








oh...and if you're not an idiot your stock clutch will be fine...however watch out for blown cv's...a known issue on o2m axles esp if your lowered...

If you are referring to me I merely gave him my reasons for choosing SC on my car b/c he asked me. I did say he should drive both and that the C2 kit will make more power for the money.
I've never driven a 24vT. I've been in two 12VT's at 6psi and 10psi and both had ALOT of traction issues. I'm sure that could be minimized with the right sized turbo.
That is a nice TQ curve for a turbo but still reaches peak way before mine. Honestly it's not a competition. There are differences and each will be more ideal for different people. I run 12's like alot of 350-400whp VRT's, can use 1st gear, and have broken nothing in a year of launching hard. Some of those on slicks.


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
If you are referring to me I merely gave him my reasons for choosing SC on my car b/c he asked me. 


I understand you were sharing your experience and providing your rationale for your choice...for your platform...however to extrapolate the analysis to a different engine and tune is IMO, misguided...it is simply not a fair comparison and that dyno demonstrates it... 

_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
That is a nice TQ curve for a turbo but still reaches peak way before mine.


...and i'm pretty sure that's a good thing...


----------



## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_you'll have plenty traction with the c2 kit @ 6psi w/ a 0,68 hotside on the PT61...i'm running 10psi on the i/c version and have no traction issues, mind you that's running big gummy dunlop winters with lots of grip...i suspect it maybe a bit different with summers...








don't let people who have no experience with the 24v and C2 tuning sway your decision....
look at this dyno of Ginster_DE...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3568609
i doubt many s/c cars could put down a tq curve as flat as that, nor power as linear as that...








*oh...and if you're not an idiot your stock clutch will be fine...*however watch out for blown cv's...a known issue on o2m axles esp if your lowered...
 a lot of people have told me that my clutch will start slipping in like 2 weeks prior to getting the kit.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_
I understand you were sharing your experience and providing your rationale for your choice...for your platform...however to extrapolate the analysis to a different engine and tune is IMO, misguided...it is simply not a fair comparison and that dyno demonstrates it... 
...and i'm pretty sure that's a good thing...










First of all that dyno says EIP turbo kit w/ C2 fueling. What are the specs on the turbo? It's not even a C2 kit so I would say your post is alot less relevant than mine.
The only difference between my platform and his are 12 valves in the motor. Still FWD and still traction limited. Again, that dyno is not from a C2 kit.
The earlier and more sudden your torque hits the more traction issues you'll have. Good is a relative term. I hate wheelspin so reaching peak torque that low is not good for me.
My SC builds boost gradually over a 5500 rpm range. I don't see peak torque until 5500rpm. Some look at that as a negative which I can understand. However, because of it they are much more gentle on the drivetrain than ANY turbo and have alot less traction issues. You don't need an engineering degree to understand this. Just look at how each of them builds boost, where the torque curve peaks, and how vertical it rises.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*

Sooo.. all in all if i drive it like a normal"" car like shifting before 4000-5000 i should be good? Wont really break anything? Because i drive like that now." ill shift a 4000 in first then in second ill drop my foot to the floor but shift at like 4 or 4500 again.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_Sooo.. all in all if i drive it like a normal"" car like shifting before 4000-5000 i should be good? Wont really break anything? Because i drive like that now." ill shift a 4000 in first then in second ill drop my foot to the floor but shift at like 4 or 4500 again.

My honest opinion. You are 19. If you go turbo you'll keep turning up boost until something breaks. I've seen it a hundred times. Young guys and turbos and the tinkering never ends.


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## charmcitydub (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*

i have a vf stage2 kit installed in my slc.it has plenty of power over stock,and is great for a street driven car.i have driven a few turboed cars,and i like the powerband much better with the supercharger.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*

Yeah but im not handy with cars so i most likely wont touch it.


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## crazysccrmd (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PYRO31888* »_Sooo.. all in all if i drive it like a normal"" car like shifting before 4000-5000 i should be good? Wont really break anything? Because i drive like that now." ill shift a 4000 in first then in second ill drop my foot to the floor but shift at like 4 or 4500 again.

if you do that in a car with a kinetic kit, meaning tiny t3/t4 turbo, you will break drivetrain components and go through tires in a month. full throttle right away in second gear is only good for spinning tires with the .63 hotside


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (crazysccrmd)*

Oh... ok well i mean i would figure out how to drive it and avoid spinning the tires once i get in a drive it. Its just common sense.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (crazysccrmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crazysccrmd* »_
if you do that in a car with a kinetic kit, meaning tiny t3/t4 turbo, you will break drivetrain components and go through tires in a month. full throttle right away in second gear is only good for spinning tires with the .63 hotside

Def. agree. I've seen that kit spin wheels in a friends car at 6psi and that's w/ an LSD. I do believe the C2 kit for the 24V uses a T4 turbo but I'm not sure of the hotside size.


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*

I would be getting the C2


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

i have had 2 24v turbos here in the last week....
the C2 kit is great do a stag one and DON"T install a boost controller.
you'll need a clucth and a LSD is highly recommended
both sc and turbo will have traction issue, turbo may have a bit more.... no matter what you'll beat it, break things and wear out tires...its the name of the game...6 psi or 15...


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

ok... we'll order the stuff when it comes time...


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

would i need to get the Stage 1+ or just the stage 1??


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (PYRO31888)*

1+ is what...i forget...FMIC but no head spacer correct? if so yes...trust me thats enough for you...just had a 1+ here and it was fun!


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

ok... And where could i buy the LSD??


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## PYRO31888 (Dec 11, 2006)

how much torque does the Turbo kit have? Stage 1+


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## Albie5043 (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm looking into a new dub myself. i've owned a few, my latest was a mkII golf. nothing special but i still loved it. I'm in between a mkII or an mkIII right now but i know for sure i want a vr. and i also know that i was to go sc, however the only sc i know of are the bbm Lysholm kits. what other company's are there that manufacture sc kits. but also i am very found of the classic sc whine. how would i produce that?


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