# Fault Codes 16405 and 16395 after V8 Timing Belt Replacement



## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

I wont post the scan since you know i have the real vagcom from other posts. Here is what i have questions about. Bear with me cuz this may be long.

We have an 04 v8 phaeton. Hubby just changed timing belt with the blauparts top kit. He rented their tools. When he went to attach the bar it didnt line up. He talked with someone on here and got it where he says it is supposed to be. He finally got it all back together and it runs fine. The vag com scares me, though. 

Those codes say...

16405 bank 2 camshaft a (intake) p0021-002 retard setpoint not reached (over advanced) mil

on and the other

16395 Bank 1 p0011-002 retard setpoint not reached over advanced mil on.

He just ran the scan today and we are leaving on a 1500 mile trip tomorrow. He says he knows it lined up right...im doubting it. We have driven it about 500 miles since he changed it...no problem. I dont want to risk damaging something. What do you guys think? Would you take it on a trip with that code? What is your thought on it? Thanks.


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*timing belt replacement*



AdW14 said:


> I wont post the scan since you know i have the real vagcom from other posts. Here is what i have questions about. Bear with me cuz this may be long.
> 
> We have an 04 v8 phaeton. Hubby just changed timing belt with the blauparts top kit. He rented their tools. When he went to attach the bar it didnt line up. He talked with someone on here and got it where he says it is supposed to be. He finally got it all back together and it runs fine. The vag com scares me, though.
> 
> ...


The vw tools were used to pin the crank and camshafts in place as the sprockets were torqued. Then I turned the motor around to tdc and the camshafts still pined with the tool. As I turned the motor over by hand it had way more compression than when I put it on tdc to pin the crank. It runs great (my opinion) and we have put some good miles on the motor.
Thanks,
Stephen


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I think both of you have a vast amount of technical knowledge about cars, engines, power and timing, so my view is that a recent history of 500 miles of driving with no obvious damage will probably support a further 1500 miles. Then you can re-assess the DTCs.

I assume there's no obvious power loss, or unburned fuel heating the cats, or unusual engine note or coolant overheating.

Perhaps it's another control problem altogether, after all, any R&R presents a risk of collateral issues.

Anyway, have a good trip! 

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Unless you believe in unlikely coincidences, it would seem that your timing is off: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16395/P0011/000017 I'd be worrying about the cats with that code. Don't forget to check the wheels before the trip!


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Stephen weaver said:


> It runs great (my opinion) and we have put some good miles on the motor.





How long did it take for the car to kick the MIL? I'd expect it pretty quickly.


I'd also expect it to 'feel' like it is running well with overly advanced cam settings as that will increase lower rpm power.


That being said, the car isn't happy about it and is trying to pull them back to where they are supposed to be.. but can't move them anymore.


Since it is kicking the code for both banks, it sounds like the cams are lined up with each other fine but your crank to cam timing is off. Sometimes just a tooth can cause issues.


Given your pending trip, it is too late to do anything about it now. I agree it is *probably* fine to drive it and revisit the issue when you return. I just wouldn't put my foot into it and your gas mileage may not be what you are used to.


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your input. i went to a few audi pages and read about this. It seems to lead back to that tenioner at the back of the motor. Remember we had that rattle noise....we had it briefly again the other day. We were on backroads and i thought it was a dirtbike overtaking us. Anyhow, i also saw a while back where people noticed it presenting itself more after a TB replacement. Seems to me we will Be looking at this as soon as we get back. It sucks we have had to repair so many things but pretty soon we should have all the bugs worked out. Windshield is next on the list. 

It feels better after reading the replies. When we raced 4 banger vw's we had adjustable cam gears and could definitely feel the differentsettings....and it ran fine with no damage. I am just paranoid of this 40v v8, lol. Luckily, we have 1 ton dually and 24 foot enclosedcar hauler...so i figure if it breaks we can rent a car and come get our truck to retrieve it. 

The wheels....he has checked torque on them about 10 times...and has the torque wrench packed in. We had the ac filled at the dealer last week so we paid them to check the repairs our insurance's shop had done because it has an aobnoxious rattle when going over bumps or right after coming to a stop. Turns out the idiots forgot parts. Vw is dealing with the insurance and ordered the parts..ugh. The same idiots neglected to put a few fasteners in when putting the front end back together. We figure they thought noone would ever know...but we did TB right after we got it back. Anyhow, hubby got fasteners out of the parts they had returned to us and put them all in.

I guess we will go have a nice trip. Seems destruction has been following us so i am paranoid. Last week we had a freak storm blow through and toppled 30 trees and did 8000 bucks damage to our place...then as I was cleaning up debris i was maneuvering our dually around/between the P and our 55 dodge and clipped the dodge taillight (they are huge) with the dually (purely wrong on my part. I watched everywhere but right at front of the dually fender where I knew my blindspot was). Luckily it didnt damage the 55...but the dually fender shattered in one spot...(i am fixing it myself cuz i dont even want another claim and i feel i can do at least as good of job as mostshops around here). Oh yeah, we have a very high end luxury 5th wheel too....and the awning was out when the storm hit...our homeowners say we have to claim that on the rig ininsurance....ugh....anyhow...now you may see why I am paranoid, lol.

Thanks again for the input. This forum is great. We really appreciate you all.


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*vcds scan*



The camshafts were out of position to start with. After installing the new belt and tensioner with the crank pined I needed to move both sets of camshafts to install the camshaft tool. The cams and crank were pined as I then torqued the sprockets. I removed the tools and turned the motor over twice to tdc and reinstalld the camshaft tool, perfect fit.
Why is there only intake errors? I moved all four cams!
Thank you for the replies,
Stephen


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Would that be because of a faulty tensioner too? Seems i read that that back chain ran the cams that control the intakes or exhaust but i cant recall the info now. I will be re researching it all asap. I wanted to learn these motors but not this way, lol.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The tensioner usually causing the chain rattle is at the front of the engine, but to get to it you need to remove the camshaft cover. I assume there must be one at the back as well for the other chain. However, the rattle should only happen on a cold start since it's caused by the tensioner sinking when the oil drains. If something's rattling during normal driving, it's not the "normal" rattling. Mine also sounded more like an AK47 than a dirt bike, although it did happen after the belt change. Since then I've been wondering what they might have done that caused the rattle, but perhaps now we have the answer if the rattle starts after a timing problem caused by the belt being fitted incorrectly. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that dealer made the same mistake with mine.

The "normal" tensioner rattle problem doesn't cause any issues other than noise.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note:*

Other discussions that might possibly provide more background information about V8 Timing Belt concerns:

Blauparts: Vw Phaeton Timing Belt Kits and Serpentine Tensioner Arm (this post is an advertisement, but shows the parts involved)

TB: Camshaft Rattle when Engine Started (4.2 litre V8 only) - includes TB 15-06-01 (tangentially related)

Timing Belts, Timing Chains, Serpentine Belts (V8 and W12 engines)

V8 Engine Timing belt Replacement questions (this appears to be the most comprehensive discussion of the subject)

Post Timing belt replacement overheating

Michael


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Stephen weaver said:


> Why is there only intake errors? I moved all four cams!
> Thank you for the replies,
> Stephen


The belt drives the exhaust cam directly.
The intake cams are driven via a short chain with adjustment (phasing / advance/retard) mechanism. 

On the right side of the motor, the chain is at the rear of the head, on the left side, the chain is at the front. 

So I am thinking that the timing belt may be correct (well you know it WAS correct - I am waiting to hear a reconfirmation that the belt to exhaust cams is still unchanged). (Turn crank to TDC MARK, then confirm cam ovals are horizontal) 
If the belt is right, next we gotta figure out if the advance/retard is working, or if the sensors are lying to us.....


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## 94540i (Nov 17, 2009)

Im having the same problem with the overadvance timing.. is there any way to adjust this with the vagcom? At tdc the ovals line up with the tool. But the error code still comes up. How can I adjust this?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

We got home late last night. No problems. We got average 20 mpg the whole trip. Coming home we did 75 to 80 mph the whole way and got 22mpg. That was nice compared to our duramax. Hubby will be checking it today. We also found the front end has a shake so we will be returning it to the shop. They said b4 it was out of balance tires but they have been balanced 3 times. It is most pronounced between 50 to 60 then again over 75.


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

He took the covers off and found it is a tooth off on both cams. He still claims there is no way a new belt could skip a tooth. What do you guys think? He called blauparts and discussed it with them. we may have to rent the tools again and redo it...ugh.


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*he claims*



AdW14 said:


> He took the covers off and found it is a tooth off on both cams. He still claims there is no way a new belt could skip a tooth. What do you guys think? He called blauparts and discussed it with them. we may have to rent the tools again and redo it...ugh.


Since I removed the camshaft covers and found both sets of cams one tooth advanced that would be difficult for me to say!!!
I contacted Blauparts and I can rent the tools again. I talked with a technician and he said he has seen cam timing that far off from the factory. He told me to clear the fault codes and run a new scan. I ran a scan before and after I started the engine. The fault codes are now cleared! I made a call to the tech about this, but was only able to leave a message. Maybe the silly computer created a ‘new‘ top dead center???
Stephen (he)


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

The belt didn't slip, you just mistimed. It happens.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

I worked with Steven (by messages) during the job, he used the crank shaft locking pin, and the cam bar, I can't see it being done "wrong".
what I don't know is how he is declaring it off by one tooth, since the crank turns twice for each cam revolution, one tooth on the crank is almost harmless. There are no marks on the cams, only a visual that the oval flanges are horizontal.

I did mine without the special tools. 
I used the timing mark on the crank, and a straight level metal bar across the oval flanges. 

If anybody deserves a fault code - it should be me.


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*tdc*

Hi Bruce,
The diamond shaped pieces with holes seen to be parallel when the mark on the dapener is just past the timing mark on the cover. That is how far off the cam timing is.
Stephen


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*timing mark*



Stephen weaver said:


> Hi Bruce,
> The diamond shaped pieces with holes seen to be parallel when the mark on the dapener is just past the timing mark on the cover. That is how far off the cam timing is.
> Stephen


Bruce
Good point about the 2:1 ratio, the tech said the ecu can compensate for this. 
"Almost harmless" I would say Harmless! 
Stephen


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*the trip*

The car just ran 1500 miles fully loaded in 100 degree @ 70 to 80 mph. The engine coolant was @ 200 degrees all day long. With a new water pump and new 190 degree thermostat, that's what I would expect. The mileage average was as good as 22 mpg at times! Should I reset the cams???
Stephen


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

If it is throwing a MIL then 100% yes you should retime.

If it is only throwing a soft code then I guess it is up to you, as long as it doesn't effect readiness / inspection.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

22 mpg is significantly worse than mine usually manages on a long run. I can get it to about 26 mpg if I'm careful with my right foot.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

> the tech said the ecu can compensate for this.
> Stephen


The exhaust cam timing absolutely cannot be changed by a computer. It is mechanically connected by the belt. 

The ECU will know the pulses it receives from whatever sensors there are, and it will activate the adjustment of the intake cam according to the programmed parameters. It can also check if the intake cam is responding as it should and presumably generate the faults you experienced. 

As far as I know, there is no provision for a "learning" routine in this part if the ECU programming. 

If there are 10 degrees of adjustment available for the intake cam phasing, the programming for the variable cam will use all these 10 degrees. It does not reserve some of the adjustment range to compensate for things that are not assembled properly. It would be 100% unGerman to even consider that. They use the word MUST when the rest of us say SHOULD.


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

We weren't trying for mileage. We had our foot in it a lot. The hwy we traveled on is 55mph and two lanes total in most places...and is a busy north/south trucking route...so you can imagine how often we had to pass to go 80. There are lots of hills, too. We were happy with that mileage because we usually have our 1 ton dually diesel...and it gets 15 max and not in them hills and corners. I also had the P fully loaded (i am used to a truck to take EVERYTHING I may need, lol. We also had our two dogs in back seat and they are 180pounds combined.

Bruce, you have been a great help. Thank you very much. There were a couple nights hubby was sick with worry until he would hear back from you. 
We will run a scan today. The light is still on about the intake air temp....so we never know if it comes on for something else. I guess we better address both. Also, we are ordering a new windshield from vw today. Hopefully we can quit dumping money into it soon. We love it so want to restore it...but jeez is it a money pit so far.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Are you still using it for autocross??


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

We haven't since that event in April we heard the noise. Since then the wheel came off then we changed the belts then the last two events we missed for family events. The next event is Sept and then we will be back on the big track that is a road course in october. We have a few bugs to work out before that.


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

It's autocross career will be short lived. Tomorrow we put the deposit down for our 2015 z06 corvette. 650 hp and 650 lb ft of torque. Of course the p will still be our daily driver...and we will autocross with it in winter. We won't get the new vettes until around April but we can't drive it in winter anyhow.


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Here is the post about the codes it threw right after tb change. We cleared them and they never came back.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

So you didn't take Josh's advice and re-time?


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Josh's advice was...retime if it threw a MIL. It did not.he did say we may want to reset the cams IF it threw soft codes...it did not. There were no codes besides a MAF problem inAugust....and we changed those and it cleared everything except the speakers, trans and tpms. Why do you ask? Just to see if we follow instructions? Perhaps you should go re read the post...his suggestion wasnt ...you must reset the cams. Im done bickering with you on this. Your intention doesnt seem to be to help out...so please just quit responding. It seems your ego loves to reply...even if you dont know wtf you are talking about.


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