# How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve?



## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

I autocross an 8V 1.8 litre A2. I estimate it has around 120-130 brake horsepower based on several factors, not limited to high lift cam, open exhaust, slightly higher compression, mild intake manifold porting, 3 angle valve cut.
I'm wondering what is the max hp/torque one can achieve from these engines with very aggressive compression (12+ : 1), porting/polishing, balancing, etc. 
Any serious racers have dyno charts/suggestions?
Way I figure, 180 bhp (100 hp/liter specific output) would be about the max one could achieve and would be very respectable)
Comment away...


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## bmxguy (Sep 18, 2008)

if you want high compression do a 16v block with 8v head. i dont remember the exact CR but i believe the 2.0l had more than the 1.8
also head diesel blocks with gasser heads have very high CR
mix those with head work and a big cam and youll have some good numbers. but since you autocross i would use a smaller cam for a better torque curve. maybe g-grind? since i doubt youll wanna be making power at 6k+ while dodging cones


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (bmxguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bmxguy* »_...since you autocross i would use a smaller cam for a better torque curve. maybe g-grind? 

Bigger. Something like a 260 - 266 would be better since he likely has a hydraulic head... What you really want is short-ish duration and big lift. You also want very aggressive ramp rates on the cam. It'll beat on your drive line more, but the more time your valve stays wide open (within the limts of the duration you're running), the better. It's all about the area under the curve...


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (bmxguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bmxguy* »_if you want high compression do a 16v block with 8v head. i dont remember the exact CR but i believe the 2.0l had more than the 1.8
also head diesel blocks with gasser heads have very high CR
mix those with head work and a big cam and youll have some good numbers. but since you autocross i would use a smaller cam for a better torque curve. maybe g-grind? since i doubt youll wanna be making power at 6k+ while dodging cones

Thanks bmxguy,
Within the realm of E Prepared, I can run whatever compression pistons I want. It would be nice if someone had a dyno comparison between a stock 10:1 and they go up as high as 13.4:1 (race gas req'd). Right now, I'm at 10.5:1, so well underprep'd.


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (snowfox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *snowfox* »_
Bigger. Something like a 260 - 266 would be better since he likely has a hydraulic head... What you really want is short-ish duration and big lift. You also want very aggressive ramp rates on the cam. It'll beat on your drive line more, but the more time your valve stays wide open (within the limts of the duration you're running), the better. It's all about the area under the curve...

Right now I'm running Autotech's 270 sport hydro cam. I'm not sure if I can benefit much more from anything else. I have an adjustable sprocket now, so I can play with moving the torque peak around this year.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ON3WHLS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ON3WHLS* »_
Way I figure, 180 bhp (100 hp/liter specific output) would be about the max one could achieve and would be very respectable)
Comment away...

That's probably a fairly reasonable assessment. Just today, we dynoed a 2.0L 8v engine, it made 202 bhp which is the best we've ever done on a race legal VW engine.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ABA Scirocco)*

you going with a standalone engine management? have you considered solid lifter head? lightened flywheel? if you went with an external oil pump and something like ford edis, maybe you could ditch the intermediate shaft?


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ABA Scirocco)*

Im just waiting for my head to get back from the machine shop..But it has been ported and polished and receiving TT's big valves 42x35 and a TT288 cam. Im putting it back on my 1.8 block but with 14:1 compression...Ill try and get it to the dyno after i tune it and post up #'s


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (TheMajic86GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheMajic86GTI* »_Im just waiting for my head to get back from the machine shop..But it has been ported and polished and receiving TT's big valves 42x35 and a TT288 cam. Im putting it back on my 1.8 block but with 14:1 compression...Ill try and get it to the dyno after i tune it and post up #'s

That would be awesome, highly interested in seeing actual #s


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ziddey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ziddey* »_you going with a standalone engine management? have you considered solid lifter head? lightened flywheel? if you went with an external oil pump and something like ford edis, maybe you could ditch the intermediate shaft?

Installing TECII (I know, it is old tech for SA engine controllers, but sufficient) this spring. Good thought on the oil pump, wonder how many hp it takes to drive it. I currently have the stock flywheel.


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ON3WHLS)*

I've really done all the "cheap" power modifications. To make up the gap between where I am now and 180 bhp, it is big money, right: overbore, high CR pistons, lightened rods, balancing, porting/polishing. 
I just wonder how much it is worth it in autocross, 140 vs 180 bhp. 
Just spewing out thoughts here.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ON3WHLS)*

How about 230 bhp from a 1.7 liter.
GT3 SCCA cars are making that kind of power today.
Now thats not going to pass emission tests or idle while sitting at a traffic light very well, and not going to run on pump gas.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_How about 230 bhp from a 1.7 liter.
GT3 SCCA cars are making that kind of power today.


They made be doing that with some type of engines but it's not exactly a realistic goal for a VW 8v


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ABA Scirocco)*

Its a VW 8v, Drake head, big cam, mikuni carbs


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_Its a VW 8v, Drake head, big cam, mikuni carbs

I know what you've got to go through to get 200hp out a 2.0L-8v and to get 15% more out of an engine that's 15% smaller, I'm REALLY skeptical of that, unless I see incontrovertible evidence, I've got to think someone's cooking the numbers.


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## NORDLAND (Jan 9, 2010)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ABA Scirocco)*

Is Bertil's still around? they might have some evidence....maybe he is 
willing to share....maybe not!
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/POWER2.htm


_Modified by NORDLAND at 11:09 PM 2-3-2010_


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_How about 230 bhp from a 1.7 liter.
GT3 SCCA cars are making that kind of power today.
Now thats not going to pass emission tests or idle while sitting at a traffic light very well, and not going to run on pump gas.

Seems a bit of a stretch for normal aspiration (135 bhp/liter). Ferrari is using all sorts of advanced friction reducing technologies to lower the negative area under the curve (pumping loss) and is achieving 105. I only bring this up cause I recently read several articles about it. 
Maybe these 1.7's are running very high RPM's?


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

I think that 200 is a good stretch target for a 1.8 race engine - say prepped to Level 1 Production class (road race) rules. A small valve, 1.5 can be in the 150s with good development - peak is probably around 7500, revs to 9.
However for autocross, I would place a lot more focus on a good hp curve and torque than peak power.


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: (chois)*

I put down 178 to the wheels with a 2.0l. I hope that this years motor will make some more and go faster.
Take a look at some of the work ABAScirocco has done inside the constraints of the class they race in. His posts are worth searching through.
I'm going to dyno my friends race car I built. I'm hoping for 140 at the wheels with a stock counterflow head. We are limited to no head porting and stock sized valves on that one. 
Someone in this forum needs to man up and buy a dyno so the rest of us can just test stuff all day long, haha.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_Someone in this forum needs to man up and buy a dyno so the rest of us can just test stuff all day long, haha.

A buddy of mine has an engine dyno, pull your motor out of the car and haul it up here and I'm sure we can get her done.
BTW, 178 at the wheels is impressive as hell, well done. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

I work at an emissions test site with a couple chassis dyno's. They don't have the right s/w to do pulls..








They will, however, hold a given roll speed, allowing at least for load sweeps at different RPMs, so plan on tuning the TECII there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 89getlucky (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*

what are you running for fueling??
also, is the car gutted or anything of that nature.. 140hp est. would be dynamite in a totally gutted car..but i suppose 180hp est would be even better..
i think autocross is more about being consistent,smooth, and getting the car to handle its best http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (89getlucky)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89getlucky* »_i think autocross is more about being consistent,smooth, and getting the car to handle its best http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Exactly.







I know chassis/suspension setup is just as/if not more important. It is what I focused on first. I'm around 1900# now. I still have to remove glass and a few other things and I'll be close to the min weight, 1800. Yes the interior is completely removed.
I get away with 93 pump gas now. I know I'll need to change to race gas w/higher compression.
I just wanted to get a feel for what folks were getting out of these engines and determine whether or not it makes sense for me to build another engine on the side. (ie. cost to benefit and can 40 more hp be utilized on an autocross course a whole lot where you aren't looking at a bunch of straight aways...probably, but to what extent)


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*

I keep referring to HP, but as others have stated torque in autocross is probably more important...say, maximizing it between corner exit RPMs and in the used range (2000-6000) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

A fresh build is worth it IMO. The details that you are able to address - balancing/blueprinting/line boring etc. add up to significant gains when combined.
Going from a decent stock long block w~ 60k miles to a complete rebuild w/ .040 over stock pistons, balanced/blueprinted everything, under drive pullys, decked block to hit 10.49:1 CR and fresh everything (stock) in the head) netted 20 whp in my case. Both motors had the same header/exhaust/fueling and were tuned on the same dyno.
With the ability to do so much more, you will be able to see more gains.


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chois* »_A fresh build is worth it IMO. The details that you are able to address - balancing/blueprinting/line boring etc. add up to significant gains when combined.
Going from a decent stock long block w~ 60k miles to a complete rebuild w/ .040 over stock pistons, balanced/blueprinted everything, under drive pullys, decked block to hit 10.49:1 CR and fresh everything (stock) in the head) netted 20 whp in my case. Both motors had the same header/exhaust/fueling and were tuned on the same dyno.
With the ability to do so much more, you will be able to see more gains.

Sweet ITB GTI. I'm not as familiar w/ITB rules- are the mods above you referred to for that car?


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## 89getlucky (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*

i should have specified what i mean't by fueling. are you trying to run carbs,efi, or cis??? or injection pump system.. itb's like above mention


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (89getlucky)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89getlucky* »_i should have specified what i mean't by fueling. are you trying to run carbs,efi, or cis??? or injection pump system.. itb's like above mention

EFI TECII


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*

since you guys talk about using torque in auto-x, why does nobody use turbo diesels? they would dominate the competition, they start grunting at about 1500 rpms, depending on your turbo setup. ive got a weak ass 1.5 diesel (48 stock horsepower) that i turbocharged, intercooled, and built a different injection pump for it. similar builds based on a 1.6 get about 160 horsepower, and about 240 ft lbs TQ. i figure i should be there somewhere close. or can you guys not run turbos on your engines?


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*

You could always use E85 for high compression. I think that the octane is 104-114 depending on the ethanol percentage (I have heard that E85 varies from ~70-90%).


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (franque)*

doesn't e85 mean 85%?


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## Sagaris (Oct 10, 2009)

*Re: (ziddey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ziddey* »_doesn't e85 mean 85%?

Yes, but there is always variance and uncertainty in everything to a certain degree.


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (ziddey)*

Theoretically, but in practice, it varies quite a bit.


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (ziddey)*

The percentage of ethanol in E85 varies seasonally at the pump based on temperature. ie. it is closer to 70% ethanol in the winter for combustion stability. 
Yeah, I don't know exactly what the rules are in EP regarding ethanol use, but it would be somewhat of a project to retrofit the entire fuel system to be compatible. The thought has entered my mind.


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*

You just need some injectors and some fuel lines! (Okay, and a different tune) Go for it, it's race gas on the street!


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_You just need some injectors and some fuel lines! (Okay, and a different tune) Go for it, it's race gas on the street!

Ugh, why did I start this thread? Tempting...


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## Three Wood (Nov 29, 2008)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (ON3WHLS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ON3WHLS* »_
Seems a bit of a stretch for normal aspiration (135 bhp/liter). Ferrari is using all sorts of advanced friction reducing technologies to lower the negative area under the curve (pumping loss) and is achieving 105.

With a road legal engine that meets 2010 emissions specs.
GT3 engines would probably not even meet 1968 emissions specs...
Mind you, in the 70's, rally engines (not even circuit engines, these had to be tractable and drivable at less than 100% throttle) were pulling 250+hp from 2 liters or less.
Drag racers were getting over 700hp from carbed, pushrod, two-valve wedge 327ci engines... that is, what, 5.3l?


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: (ON3WHLS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ON3WHLS* »_
Sweet ITB GTI. I'm not as familiar w/ITB rules- are the mods above you referred to for that car?

Thanks. Yes that is for the IT car. There are pages to the rules but the basics are:
any exhaust
stock head and everything in it - but you can port match up to 1" from the gasket surface on both sides.
stock intake manifold - same port match allowance on the head side
allowed to go +.5 compression
allowed to go 2nd oversize stock type pistons
allowed to blueprint, but not lighten (match the lightest stock rod, piston, etc)
allowed alternate accessory pullys
allowed any intake piping that pulls from stock location AND uses stock MAF
allowed any ecu, using stock harness
any coil,wires,plugs
stock distributor may be modified inside
anything not mentioned, must be stock
Basically just a 'really good stock' build.


_Modified by chois at 7:06 AM 2-7-2010_


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: How much HP / Torque out of a NA 1.8 litre 8 valve? (Three Wood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Three Wood* »_GT3 engines would probably not even meet 1968 emissions specs...

And what were those?


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## johnnysGTIs (Jan 19, 2009)

What does your sponsor Bildon say about this topic? They do build motors.


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## ON3WHLS (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (johnnysGTIs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *johnnysGTIs* »_What does your sponsor Bildon say about this topic? They do build motors.

Haven't asked the specific output question. That is not to say I won't eventually ask them, building a "max" engine will be a long term project for me and I will look to them for support and parts when time comes. Right now, I have the 140hp engine ready to bolt in for next year. 
I know there are many people with lots of experience on Vortex (I also know it requires discretion) so figured I'd get the broader viewpoint from different perspectives and experiences.
Bildon did a great job of supporting me in getting the suspension set up properly. The thing is a flippin' hoot to race.


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