# using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments...



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

I'm so tired of people saying that an AUDI 5k WUR, volvo 240T FD, and cold start injector tied to a hobbs switch are the only way to increase fuel on a CIS car. 
First off, I will say that I have talked to people that have run the 5th injector and/or Callaway microfueler and still need more fuel.
So I've been trying to think of something that will allow more flexibility and give suffiecent fuel. EFI is out the question(I'll go full ABA later).
CIS is staying and cold start 5th injector is out.
My plan for December after school gets out is a Audi 5K WUR which will ALWAYS be sensing boost. A 240T hobbs 3psi(might change) switch tapped to the frequenzy valve for 100% duty then the SDS EIC 2 injector model.
I'm wondering if the two injectors before the throttle body will be evenly displaced. SDS says that the intake manifold will do a fine job to equal it out. I'll probably set the threshold at 5psi to be safe and then give it more fuel as needed. The SDS EIC can handle 22psi on a 4 cylinder car! Plenty for me.
Now I'm pissed I didn't buy it last week when some vortexer had it for sale!!!








What do you guys think about this http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Jason


[Modified by vdubspeed, 4:44 AM 11-21-2002]


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

I'll be trying SDS EIC on cis-e in mid january


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

There has to be someone using this system. Please give me your opinions or maybe you know someone who has it. I need fuel and don't want to drop over 300 bucks if it's not proper.
Jason


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

I have known people who have used this with the jh engine and cis. It worked absolutely perfectly without flaw. Very adjustable.
there are no drawbacks to this system I can think of other than the price. Supposedly the instalation isn't to bad. and you get to play with two knobs. one is for when you want the fuel to start and the other is what the fuel gain you want. This sytem is ideal if you have the money for it.

The reason I got mad before was because if you had just bought a car, the last thing you want to hear is that you paid to much for it. Especialy when were talking about thousands of dollars. I agree the price was probably a bit steep but don't tell him that it will make him cry. haha However if he hadn't bought the car yet its a great idea to tell him what you think of the price because he can counter what you think and possibly do something about it. If he's already bought it then all he can do if feel bad. 
Anyways good luck with your project. Sorry for calling you a barney(rubble trouble, get it/, flinstones) And sds is the way to go if you have the money.


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

Why not run the volvo FD and Audi WUR alone first (You said you are gonna run them anyway) and see if `220HP is enough for you... if not then try the EIC thing....
But if you plan on EIC anyway, and 20PSi on a JH motor (not the best idea un;less you don't care if it blows) Then why not run DIGI 1 for less money and run with a chip?


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

I agree with you. Plus I do not think anyone has tried raising the system pressure and adjusting the control pressure [to compensate for the extra system pressure] because you get approx 220 hp with the stock settings and most likely more with the higher pressure.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Butcher)*

The reason I don't want to run the Volvo FD is because I'm trying to keep things simple. Now your probably shaking your head but I must admit my FD is brand new and I don't want to scrape it. I have excellent fuel mileage and I don't want to lose that either(I guess I will with the turbo!) The cool thing with the EIC is that I can turn it UP or DOWN and on when I want. That's WAY more flexibility than a FD can give. 
Basically if I hear pinging...Turn up the flow rate and kiss detonation good by!
It's just such a costly system that I was making sure if was right for me..
Thanks,
Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

A volvo FD can be had cheap on ebay, and way cheaper from a junkyard.... You won't lose fuel milage cause, it will only flow enough fuel for what amount of air is going through it...
Ex. put the FD on an NA engine have the 3mm screw tweaked a tad, and voila, same milage you had before...
That is the beuty of CIS, fuel flow is relative to air flow... drive like a granny all day on your 12psi turbo car, and I bet you could get killer milage.
All I am trying to show you is that you can save $100's by sticking with the CIS stuff. 
Like butcher said in another post. CIS is 90% of the power for 10% of the fuss!


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

okay, I'll bite.
Why do SO many people say this isn't enough fuel or that it's not accurate enough. I love CIS and would love to have a basic turbo set. AdidasCU what does your fuel system have. How much PSI do you run and what's your ingnition timing
One day I'd like 10 pounds per 1 horsepower but that's a while off. I just want reliable turbo power for now.(Boy is that an oxymoron!)
Keep the thoughts rolling PLEASE!!!
Thanks,
Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

10 lbs/1HP? so that is like 200....
I think it is acuratejust fine... neither my A/F or EGT has shown it to go lean yet...
I have the setup on my Cabby. (Volvo w/ WUR.) I just got it tweaked right to day... I've put it up to 12PSI once without issue, but then I blew out a boost pipe. Car has on;y been back on the road for a week. I'm trying to find another boost leak right now (I think it is the BOV) 
timing is at 0... (whatever stock is) Then I just use the dual vacumn dist. thingy to retard timing under boost (extra detination protection...)
I guess I'd rather see you use digi 1 than an EIC...
Once I get the squared away, 12PSI should be no problem for me.


[Modified by AdidasCU, 3:58 PM 11-22-2002]


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

you'll love the EIC, the only thing is, why are you gonna run both the eic and the audi 5k wur and stuff? sell all that stuff and keep the eic, there is NO NEED for it with the EIC.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (killa)*

I like the Audi 5K WUR because I presume it's linear as far as more boost more PSI for fuel. If that WUR and Volvo FD can handle 10psi then that is PLENTY for me. I just like how the EIC is so adjustable. 
How does your cabby drive. Do you have a air/fuel gauge. Is it acting crazy.
No digi one here buddy. Next motor will be ABA and I'll jump to Motronic with standalone hopefully. Atleast I have a rust free chassis so all I have to worry about is the motor.
I'm still torn between CIS/EIC and full blown CIS upgrades(Audi and Volvo stuff!)
Anymore opinions







,
Jason


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (killa)*

If you are willing to spend the money and you want the best performance, the sds eic is the only way to go. You will have amazing tunability and it is worth it because then you can get the maximum performance out of your turbo/boost. The volvo fuel dist and stuff is the cheepo method. It will work but not nearly as well. I plan to run the volvo dist. and 5k wur. but thats because I'm very poor. I would love to use the eic but its expensive. You will have less problems with the eic and the amount of extra tuning ability will be well worth it for track times and horsepower.
Go with the eic man it worth the doe if you have it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

Dang purple rabbit. You make me want it so bad. Do I need the all the other turbo stuff if I do the SDS EIC. My ideal setup would be atleast the 5K WUR and the SDS EIC. I'm wondering if the SDS EIC alone will be okay because my WUR is brand new.
Also does the SDS EIC give more gas as boost builds OR is it just on boost/on fuel.
I'd much rather have a linear setup. That would help tremendously.
This is great guys...
A1s rock!


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Simple controls allow quick, easy adjustments. The boost threshold knob permits you to set the boost pressure that you wish the unit to start injecting at. The fuel gain control allows you to fine tune fuel delivery to your specific needs from 1 - 100%. The internal microprocessor and MAP sensor control fuel flow from your knob selections proportionally with RPM and boost pressure. *This permits a trickle just coming on boost at low rpm, to a storm at full boost and high rpm.*[HR][/HR]​This was pulled right off the http://www.sdsefi.com/eic.html website.
So I answered my question. I think this is going to be the answer guys. I just can't see screwing around with the Volvo/Audi setup when I can just adjust knobs to get plenty of fuel...


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

I was in the same dilemma as you and with the stock fuel system you must have some additional fuel added somewhere. I purchased a HKS additional fuel controller and I have plenty of injectors around my shop I can use. I was thinking about how I was going to install it and routing the fuel lines and hooking up a pressure regulator and return line and modifying the intake for the extra injectors and.... well you get the picture. Then I was reading about the Volvo set up. As much as I work with CIS and have all the tools [incl access to an inj/dist flow tester] installation of the Volvo system is as hard as installing fuel lines and the fuel dist. All the problems on installing the additional injectors were considered real problems. The Volvo system flows enough fuel for most of us that have a 8V engine. Although most of us want to run 20 psi and some say they do, the fact is most of us keep it under 10-15 psi. If the Volvo set up is capable to run that, then there is no need for anything else. It sounds cool to say you can adjust your fuel trim as you drive but I would rather have the fuel system dialed in everytime I drive, then playing around with some knob to keep my detonation down. I have just driven the new twin turbo V12 the Benz is making and trust me, there is no better way to drive down the road and haul a$$ without worring about controlling detonation, fuel trim, gauges, etc. Design it right and enjoy. Additional fuel injectors have there place but when you have a proper fuel system that is capable of delivering the fuel you need [not want] for under $100.00 then that sounds like it is for me [and that is why I bought the Volvo system for my car {$45/eBay}]. No one is bashing you on your decision, it is your choice.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Butcher)*

dang you guys! I woke up this morning and was stead fast on the SDS EIC thing and leaving everything else stock.
I don't know it's so friggin hard to decide. It just seems like the Volvo/Audi/VW setup is hard to tune. 
I'm going to use AdidasCU in this situation.
He has the Volvo/audi/VW setup and can't get it tuned right. I'm sure he is a capable mechanic and knows plenty about CIS. Then what do you "tune" on a CIS system if you add a larger turbo or whatever.
At this point I'm leaning towards the SDS EIC because of it's simplicity. Replacing the WUR and F/D would be much harder then adding some new fuel lines and two injectors inline before the T/B
Butcher: I totally agree about not having to worry about what's going on under the hood but even the SDS EIC setup is meant to do that:
quote:[HR][/HR]Once satisfactory operation has been achieved, no further adjustments should be needed.[HR][/HR]​So at this time. Yes the SDS system will be more(About 400 bucks more)
BUT!!!. Tuning is simple and flexible.
Dang, maybe I should be salesman for the SDS system








Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

You need to understand that my car has been back on the road for a week, and I have been fighting boost leaks vacumn leaks and a not properly working A/F meter.... Not that all that is squared away, I'll be fine.
I have 1 more boost leak to take care of before I can turn up the boost, but I ran 12PSI before i was "tuned" and I created a boost leak cause things were not tight enough. No detination or anything.
Basically, once I get it where I want it, I'll have stock driveablity and I'll be able to "set it and forget it"








It really isn't that hard to tune, I've just been dealing with a bunch of stuff at once. But if all you want is 10 PSI, I think the EIC will be overkill.
I also think you will encounter a lot more fabrication trying to plumb new fuel lines, and get the injectors into the intake tract.
The FD took me a few hours, and don't forget you will be fiddling with the EIC trying to tune it to where you want it.
In the end, it's all in what you wanna do. the EIC will not get rid of CIS, and CIS is a good system. don't be afraid to use it. If you don't like it, then swap to full SDS, but the $400 is a lot to spend when you can get more "stock" like fueling for a lot less $$$
Tuning is very simple on the CIS, a dwell meter and a 3 MM hex wrench is all you need.
the 2 injector EIC will definately be too much fuel. Your car stock with a WUR will be able to handle 8-9 PSI o the STOCK FD w/ a WUR. if you only want 1 more PSI, why spend $400???
I'm just trying to show you all the options.... I'm more than happy to continue the debate though! And butcher had lots of great points above too.


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

Say you are running 10PSI on the EIC on on car and 10PSI on a volvo FD car.
Now say you want to turn the boost up to 12 PSI using a boost controller.
On the EIC car it'll be time to play with the knob again. (As far as I understand it. make sure I am right before deciding.)
On the FD car, turn up the boost and drive. the only time this will not be true is when you hit the 220HP mark....


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

okay! Now we're talking http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I don't like the money issue either
What do you do though if you need more fuel from your Volvo/Audi setup. When you talk about your 3mm screw are talking about the one on the FD. I though that was only for idle situations.
Here's what I want so maybe we can clarify things a little:
I want 12(i said ten at first but your claiming CIS will do 12, so let's do 12). I want easy tuning and a fun car. Pretty simple request.
I understand that the EIC is overkill but it works great. 
Yet again I'm on the fence post and it sucks up here. 
So let me clarify AdidasCU: When CIS senses boost the audi 5K WUR will just bump up the PSI of the fuel. The only thing the Volvo FD is allow more fuel to go to the injectors.
How does pumping up the fuel PSI and not fuel volume work so good. You would think that the EIC is better because it delivers more fuel. 
I've got a deal lined up on the complete CIS setup so I need to make a decision. I would much rather spend 1/5 of the money and be happy. Butcher, Stephen Webb, AdidasCU and all...FIRE AWAY








Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

Well... First off, you are not properly understanding how te CIS and boost sensitive WUR work together....
OK. So, your driving alog and you punch it. As you start to sense boost, the WUR lowers the CONTROL PRESSURE in the Fuel dist. the control pressure manages how much fuel is pushing down on the control plunger. the control plunger is what relates flow plate height with amount of fuel. I'd like to amend one of butchers statements.
"90% of the power for 5% of the fuss, and 5% of the cost!!!"
So less control pressure means less pressure on the control plunger. Thus, for the SAME amount of air going through the flow plate, the flow plate can go up higher which means you get more fuel for the same amount of air flowing. Thus you get a more rich mixture.
So the system essentially tunes itself. I am tweaking the idle screw because it is the baseline mixture setting. (and I screwed with it at the wrong time.) So once it is set and running right, the CIS system will fuel up to 220HP worth of PSI. (I don't know what the max PSI achieved is) But I have hit 12 SAFELY prior to "tuning"
Once the mixture is dialed in properly at idle, you are done. no more tuning. for whatever PSI.
Ex. I have a boost controller, and I run 7 psi with it off, set it to 9 on low boost and 12 on high I don't have to do anything to the car to get it to run on any of those settings. It is all already done.
The volvo FD can pump more volume. see above for why/how it enrichens.
Hope I made sense. And I hope this helps.


[Modified by AdidasCU, 1:49 PM 11-23-2002]


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## Sahale (Apr 9, 1999)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*



> Now say you want to turn the boost up to 12 PSI using a boost controller.
> On the EIC car it'll be time to play with the knob again. (As far as I understand it. make sure I am right before deciding.).......
> 
> 
> ...


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Sahale)*

I definitely don't want to go over 200hp. Not on CIS anyway. I'm falling off the fence toward the CIS side. I've been reading _Volkswagen Water-cooled, front-drive Performance Handbook_ all night and it really helped me understand CIS better. 
If all goes well, this guy is going to sell me his turbo CIS fuel system (audi 5K, Volvo FD, VW ignition retard dizzy). 
Thanks for all the GREAT input







. 
Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Sahale)*

This is incorrect, once you have the eic dialed in for your setup an increase in boost will receive the proper increase in fueling. 
From what I have read here the real decision making question for you should be, do you plan to exceed the level of power that the stock injectors are capable of fueling? If yes than you should definitely go with the eic, it is way more difficult to try to tune for larger injectors than to just add the eic. If your not planning to go after more than around 200hp or so, then the eic probably wouldn't be the most economical way to go, but it is still a great system and is very easy to setup.

[Modified by Sahale, 4:51 PM 11-23-2002][/QUOTE]
This is good to know that once dialed you will be good. Just to let this guy know, It is the Fuel distributor that holds the CIS guys back, NOT injectors.
Glad you are reading that book. It should definately help. did my post help explain how the CIS system works for ya? 
Let me know If i can offer anymore info.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

Not sure what the SDS price is, but you might want to check out a haltech F5 controller ~300$ http://www.haltech.com.au/Products/ECUs/F5/F5.pdf got one one a turbo rabbit with audi WUR + RPM/pressure switch on the temp sensor. The fuel on cis might be able to flow enough for 2xx hp, but the "mapping" thats based on a mechanical sensor designed for a 90 hp car doesn't really work all that well when boosting a highly modified car with very different RPM vs flow charachteristics. I was leaning out around [email protected] psi without the extra injector. Now around 11 psi the car pulls hard all the way to redline. Drivability is also very good with this setup. 








note location of single injector prior to throttle body. this is much better than trying to run the cold run injector like on some kits, which will lean out the first two cylinders. 


[Modified by enginerd, 11:27 PM 11-23-2002]


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (enginerd)*

wait....you can't hop in this conversation and add a THIRD option








I checked out the Haltech deal and for 25 more bucks I could get the SDS EIC system. 
My deal fell though on the CIS fuel kit but I still think I'm going to go full CIS as of 12:17 central standard time








That might change though because...well it just might change








I like what Adidas and Butcher and the handbook are saying.
Here's what I've determined so far:
EVERYONE has the Audi 5K warmup reg. Even the handbook says it is good for NA cars because it allows the plate to rise up farther for more fuel(thanks AdidasCU http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif )
Also I would like to get the Audi 5K WUR and the Volvo FD on my car BEFORE the turbo goes on. I need the car to be driving fine in NA mode before turbo. 
For what the SDS EIC+2 injector kit cost I could get my techtonics exhaust, g60 headgasket and ALL the CIS stuff.
You guys are helping me out tremendously. The







is on me if we ever meet each other








Jason


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## turboit (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

I believe Killa was using a haltech 2 injector EIC on his old setup for his 2.0 16v turbo setup. You might wanna try and Im him, and I believe that was CIS.


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (turboit)*

Enginerd is forgetting that we are talking about using the Volvo FD, and NOT the stock setup. Yes, stock will lean out at 9 PSI.. volvo will not.
I'm gonna hit the yard on Mon, and I'll see what I can do about a Volvo FD. (I have tons of WUR if u r interested...)
Definately IM killa... he knows his stuff. I think this Volvo FD stuff is pretty new to the VW scene though, so he may not have had access to it.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

Talk to Stephen Webb and or Peter Tong. They're both on these forums and both using Volvo fd on boosted VW motors. 
CIS is about as simple as it gets. If you're shooting for 200crank hp, why make it harder than necessary? Save your creative juices for the many other challenges of building a turbo motor. Changing a fuel dist and wur is no harder than changing oil and sparkplugs. If you can do a complete tune up, you'll have no issues with swapping the fuel dist and wur. 
I'd very, very very highly recommend "Bosch Fuel Injection and Engine Management" if you want to learn CIS. The authors last name is Probst, it's available through the Bently website, and it will answer all of your CIS questions. 
I get the impression that part of the concern with using CIS is the lack of understanding of how to tune it properly. The book can change all that. So could the Bad Habit Rabbit website. I don't have the address saved, but it's a very good quick and dirty CIS set up.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Andrew Stauffer)*

I've already talked with Stephen Webb and have read lots of stuff by Peter. After weighing both sides in many different facets, the decision has been made....
Drum roll please...
CIS wins!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
After much reading on the web, books and conversation with other dubbers/vortexians(







) I've decided that CIS will be more than capable of handling my fuel needs.
I could see adding an extra injector on a motronic motor but CIS components snagged off of other cars will be more than enough. Big thanks goes out to AdidasCU who is in the process of helping more source some CIS stuff.
Now that I have my fuel planned out I really can't wait till school gets out in 2 weeks. Not only is it the end of the semester but it's my last semester at FSU as I'm graduating!!!






















What am I getting for my graduation present you ask...Well it's quite simple.
...Turbo...
Jason


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

The more I read this page the more it starts sounding like everyone is on the right page. 200 HP the easy way is with the Volvo system. More than that may be to add the EIC, G60 injection, or standalone. I still believe that most of us with an 8V is not going too much past 200. 16V guys should stay away from CIS because of there potential of a better flowing head. If your goal is to keep 200 hp then buy the stuff that will get you there. When I was 18 I enjoyed fiddling with my turbo Fiat X1/9, but after replacing many stock pistons I relized that fiddling with cars are not as fun as driving them fast. 
I enjoy tuning CIS and I believe there is more power than 220 with the Volvo system with some tweeking. I too will have my Volvo system before the turbo motor gets in so I can at least have the drivablity bugs worked out [even though it will be N/A when I do it]. I believe like others have said once the pressures are set and the idle mixture is correct I will keep my hood closed except to admire my 2.5 years of dreaming and oil changes.


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Butcher)*

People are saying don't be afraid to use cis and that cis is so good but I tuely beleive weather your going for 7psi or 15psi the sds eic is the best way to go. you still have cis working the way it was designed to and the eic is doing what I believe is a better job of fueling the extra air. I truely believe the eic will get you more power due to the adjustability and less headaches once you have it where you want it. finding the fuel lines for it is very easy. all you do is tap the fuel feed line.
anyway its your decision but unless your trying a junkyard poorboy setup like me go with the real deal.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

purplerabbit:
Your right were I was a couple days ago. Let me see if I can help you out and convert you to CIS.
quote:[HR][/HR]you still have cis working the way it was designed to and the eic is doing what I believe is a better job of fueling the extra air.[HR][/HR]​Let me just say that an Audi 5K WUR and a Volvo 240T are still CIS. How can the EIC be doing a better job when both are metering air whether it be vacuum or boost. I used to like the EIC because fuel delivery was linear to more RPM but the same is true for CIS. The more air passing the plate, the more the flow is let into the injectors
quote:[HR][/HR]I truely believe the eic will get you more power due to the adjustability and less headaches once you have it where you want it.[HR][/HR]​Isn't 220hp enough hp in rabbit. That is way over the 10lbs per 1hp ratio. Adjustability is nice but the CIS system does it automatically. And the less headache thing is debatable(this whole post is!). I would think that the full CIS system is less headache because you are never worrying if you have the correct threshold or gain. Remember some engineers got paid big bucks to design the WUR and the FD(that thing is amazing!) so I would trust that piece that made it to production is good crap. 
I don't want sound nasty but the EIC almost seems like a bandaid for an unproperly tuned CIS turbo motor. Remember we are just talking about the WUR and the FD. We haven't touched using a hobbs switch to up the duty cycle of the frequecy valve(Stephen Webb is the master of this!)
All I'm saying is that regardless of price(though we know the CIS route is 1/5 of the price!), the CIS is ABLE to *PROPERLY* meter and fuel the motor.
Hey if Porsche would put this system on a top end 930 turbo 6 cylinder, or Audi on the 5000T and others, and don't forget about Benz who used CIS forever because they BUY ALL THE PATENTS. Then there is Volvo and probably others who have turbo cars using CIS and no other special injectors. My point is that these guys did it and put it into PRODUCTION! I'm sure my 4 cylinder CIS rabbit can handle the power too. 
Anyone else have a say in this... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

I like how you say it is good crap... oxymoron?!?!?!?
I also like how you put it at the end... Many good 80's cars out there ran CIS on high power applications...
Nobody is saying CIS is the best system ever, but bang for the buck?!?!? Hell yeah... Show me where you can fuel and EXTRA 50HP with $15 and a junkyard!!!! HA HA!!!
I also really like how you say that when you use an EIC, the air is STILL metered by the CIS dist.
BAsically, my take is, for $100 or less stick with CIS, for $400 do the Digi 1 instead of the EIC, and if you like the EIC so much, spend the extra $600 and go all out stand alone....
These also go hand i hand with power numbers too... but we all know those already...


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## aventari (Jul 25, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

I agree that the Volvo FD is the best solution for up to 200hp. After that, go SDS standalone and have extra transmissions in your garage at all times..

One point not brought up yet is that an EIC will NOT fuel all cylinders as equally as CIS. Our manifolds are dry flow manifolds, designed for splitting air evenly between cylinders--not fuel. The single injector before the t-body will not distribute evenly to all cylinders. It may be "good enough", but on a hot day and a bad tank of gas, you just might blow your piston on the #1 cylinder because more fuel got to #3 and #4. Just something to think about.


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (aventari)*

I agree with the metering. When I was going to use an EIC I was going to use one injector per runner and that is why I think EIC was more difficult to add. With only one injector I would like to see some type of test to see which cyl was the leanest or if they are all the same [which I doubt]. Who knows they way I am spending money I may have to go with a EIC even with the Volvo set up.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Butcher)*

I'll just add that the EIC is either 2 or 4 injectors. The two injector version goes before the throttle body and pulse back and forth. SDS realizes that manifold for fuel injection are to flow air but aventari is right...
You just can't have a system that was not properly designed to flow fuel to all for cylinders and be 100% sure it's always doing the job correctly. The words I'm thinking are piece-of-mind.
Butcher I agree with you also. If I was going to go through all the trouble of adding a SDS EIC 4 injector system I would just go Digi 1. or standalone if money permitted. This is really the reason the Callaway Microfueler never did a good job. If callaway would have known about the Audi 5K WUR and the Volvo FD I'm sure they would have went that way.
Speaking of old tuning companies...If anyone has the VW performance handbook. Check out the forced induction chapter. There was a company that sold a turbo kit for the 8V. In the pic it shows a pic of the kit and the description reads...
The GMP kit included an intercooler. The special fuel distributor is at the bottom of the photo, and the piece at the lower right is a by-pass valve(BOV). A very advanced setup in early 86.
Does anyone know more about this kit. They also show a manifold that looks like a callaway stage II elbow with an injector in it. Just wondering if someone has any info on this kit. I've personally never heard of them. 
Another question... What is the proper way to hook up the Audi 5K WUR? There are two ports on the side and one on the top by the electric plug.
Jason


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

This is somewhat a matter of opinion because there is no statistical proof either way. However I still think the eic is far more acurate. It measures boosted air rather than air going into the turbo. The hole thing said about certain cylinders getting more fuel than others is totally wrong. The fuel atomizes in the boosted tube before the throttle body and flows with the air. If the first two cylinders are getting more fuel than there also getting more air. But I don't beleive this is the case. 
I have proof that the eic works perfectly. I have seen two turbo rabbits with the sds eic and both worked perfectly. I have yet to hear of a single person who has gotten the volvo fuel dist and audi 5k wur to work properly/acuratly.
If anyone has seen this by all means let me know. And by the way I have the full set up for the volvo and 5k and that is what I'm going to use to turbo my car over christmas but if I had a choice I'd go with the eic.


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

per the WUR, 
There are 2 ports coming out the side, hook up the smallest/lowest one to a vacumn line going to the manifold, and leave the bigger one open to the atosphere.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

cancelled due to braindeath...


[Modified by Andrew Stauffer, 1:37 PM 11-25-2002]


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

Well, Volvo got their fuel dist to work on about 15,000 turbo cars with 2.1 liter 8v engines, so it can't be too bad, eh? It's a well proven system only recently becoming the object of affection for VW boost enthusiasts looking to stay CIS as it supports about as much hp/tq as the 020s will handle and the set up is dirt cheap. 
Stephen Webb is one cat that has it working rather well. Relatively small turbo, small IC and putting 165hp to the front wheels with similar tq #s IIRC. 
That said, I have no doubt that the SDS EIC is a very effective set up. I've been very tempted myself. Not making enough hp to warrant it just yet.....


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Andrew Stauffer)*

Sorry for jumping in so late guys.
I ran the Haltech F5 AIC, very simple to hook up. It has a brown wire that goes to the negative of the coil so it knows the rpm which the motor is running, a switched power wire to turn the thing on, a ground wire and a vaccum hose for its map sensor. The unit would sense the manifold pressure through its built in MAP sensor and send a signal to the injectors(there's two injector plugs, you can run one or two injectors, even put bigger injectors)
Apart from that, there's a gain knob and a boost threshold knob. That's be all you'd have to tune, the gain tells the Haltech "how much to dump in" and the Boost threshold tells it "At what manifold pressure to start dumping in"
It compensates for boost creep and everything, can't beat that.
I ran that in my car with over 220whp, no problems.
HTH
Paul


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Andrew Stauffer)*

Those production cars don't count. This is after production modifying. Even if were using parts from other turbo cars.
I have spoken to Stephen Webb alot about this subject and when I last talked to him which wasn't too long ago he still hadn't got the system to run properly/accurately. Unless he's been to the dyno recently and has the chart to prove it I don't believe I've seen anyone with a properly tuned system. And having said that Stephen Webb is very smart and knowledgable about cis. He is a great guy to talk to concerning these types of subjects and always has good things to say. I look forward to him getting his system working accurately so he can help me with mine. I'm suprised he's not in on this conversation, he must be bored with this subject.


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## aventari (Jul 25, 2000)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

For the record, I've had the Volvo FD working perfectly without a problem for more than 6 months. At 165-170 horsepower and 5-8psi.


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (aventari)*

That sounds great! What is your exact setup? like do you have a 5k wur or stock or volvo? And how do you know its working properly? Are you judging by dino or fuel mixture guage or running condition or all three?
Anyway sounds pretty good I hope I can get mine running like that.
Also what turbo are you running? And are you intercooled?
If you don't feel like answering these question don't worry yourself but please let me know what regulator your using. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

aventari I'm glad you chimmed in with some true numbers. The best thing now would be to describe your setup so we can all quit guessing.
Purplerabbit. Where are the two VWs that had the SDS EIC on them? I would think once you've done something twice and it functioned perfectly you would go that route. Any other reason besides money that you are switching to full CIS
I almost went back to my ideas about using the SDS EIC but after reading Aventari last post I was really happy to hear someone say "no troubles!"
AdidasCU, how's your setup coming and where is my Volvo FD








Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

My setup is on hold til I fix the BOV... switching to 1st gen. DSM one... Flange is different, so some modification is in the works... I have to get rid of all the bugs before worrying about that other stuff... All in all, coming along well for 2 weeks on the road.
As of now it feels strong where it is, and I'm getting only 5PSI... hesitation is gone too...
Junkyard on Wed. School work has gotten in the way.


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

Yes as you can see I'd much rather the sds but the sds costs $730cdn and the volvo fuel dist and 5k wur and some lines make a total of $30. So I'm doing it just because of the money. If I wasn't going to school I would definitely go sds.
I'll post in spring when I have enough money to insure my car. I'll let everone know if I can get it to work.


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (purplerabbit)*

If you post in the spring I will tell you how much boost I am running with my Volvo setup and also tell you all is just fine [and I plan on running no less than 15psi].


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## A20 PVW (Nov 15, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Butcher)*

Guys can someone pls confirm for me: this Volvo Fd is that from an NA volvo or is thata turbo model. Any idea which model/engine that'll be from?
Thanks


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (A20 PVW)*

The volvo fuel distributor we are referring to is the Volvo 240 turbo model. It has to be a four cylinder.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

So, I'm curious guys...How's everyones turbo CIS system working.
AdidasCU? Aventari? Stephen Webb.
I think it was Aventari who said he had to work on his car every weekend to keep it running. Now I don't know if he was referring to the motor or not but I'd sure like to know.
So what's up turbo CIS guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
Jason


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Butcher)*

Well, I am waiting on my DSM BOV to get here next week.... If that gets rid of all the leaks, I should be turning up the boost soon after that!!!!


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## A20 PVW (Nov 15, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

"The volvo fuel distributor we are referring to is the Volvo 240 turbo model. It has to be a four cylinder."
_______
VDUBSPEED: thanks mate: Unfortunately looks like we didnt get that model. I can get a Porsche 924Turbo unit. I think that would be ok. Anyone have any ideas???


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## JBrian (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (AdidasCU)*

Any updates for us?


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## NYMk2GTI (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (JBrian)*

wow, thats a lot of thoughts. Ok so if im running a 1.8 8v in an 87 gti (10:1 comp ratio) with 5-8psi what should i do for fuel? CIS-E enuf by itself? feul enrichment module? volvo FD and audi WUR????


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## jwspin (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (aventari)*

an extra injector should never be used. as bell says in maximum boost extra injectors are just a cheap way of doing it wrong. they are just a bandaid, they should be replaced with a better system once the car makes it home.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

Whats up? - mine runs just fine. I should have it on a dyno sometime in the beginning of July...
Peter

_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_So, I'm curious guys...How's everyones turbo CIS system working.
AdidasCU? Aventari? Stephen Webb.
I think it was Aventari who said he had to work on his car every weekend to keep it running. Now I don't know if he was referring to the motor or not but I'd sure like to know.
So what's up turbo CIS guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
Jason


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## ADIDAS16vGTI (Nov 26, 2002)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Peter Tong)*

ok, I have been reading up on this subject for a while, trying to decide what rout to go with my bunny. the only catch is that its a motronic 16v. I've been considering switching to digifant I, but I'm really likeing what I have been readig about the SDS system. 
does anyone have any expierence with this system on a motronic car?


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## VDUB16T (Jun 24, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

I'm running (sds eic) 4 injector one in each runner (16v), I get eaqual distrinution and never hade any problem, the system is easy and vwry ajustble, only thing i did was set it up once and then all you need to do if you want more boost is set the boost controller and it followes the boost. Running 12 psi and if I turn the eic 3/4 of the way my car almost dies from being too reach. Gain knob is less the half way. And also I have great gas mileage. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 84RabbitGTI-T (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (vdubspeed)*

Hello everybody, I feel completely stupid right at this moment. I just read most of the first page before I realized "Damn! where is the end of this thing" when I looked there was another page and by now it seems VDUBSPEED has made his mind up. 
I just wanted to say I have a 2.0L 8V Bunny and using CIS without a problem. I have tried a couple of set ups;
1. 2 additional injectors using 2 NOS fuel cutoff switches to control when they come on, on a t3 from 300zx. I set one at 6psi and other at 14psi. On the street I run it at 10-12psi and when I go to the track I run it at 16psi. So I don't need to make any adjustments to my fuel. Car by the way ran [email protected] in the 1/4and [email protected] in 1/8 mile.
2. Same 2 additional injectors using the controller box, on a Turbonetics T4. The feeling is different as you can't feel the injectors come on and the car is actualy slower. The car is now running [email protected] in 1/8mile @ 19-20psi. Did not even bother taking the car to the 1/4 track. Well, due to these results, I am changing back to first set up (except for the turbo) and possibly sell the damn control box.
I don't want to change anybody's mind about anything but it depends on what you want. Instant power (1st set up) and smoke the tires, or more linear power (2nd set up) little bit slower but you can have more fun on the street.
Just a thought! Cheers










_Modified by 84RabbitGTI-T at 8:16 AM 6-25-2003_


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (84RabbitGTI-T)*

bump from the dead guys. I really like the tunabilty of the sds EIC. I feel the 350 plus the injectors is a good deal.....my daily driver is an 03 GTI and comparatively 350 is cheap to 1.8T mods. I'd like to run 15-18 psi. if the motor/trans can take it.

3 questions.
how much crank hp can the stock jh motor handle?
is any part of the JH motor forged?
whats the stock trans power limits?
I was thinking of putting a 1.8T in it and going t3/t4 50 trim .48 a/r. After the IC, trans, limited slip, turbo, programming to work with the factory cluster.............i was looking at $6,500 + USD. 300 wheel of torque steer madness. I fealt that was overkill and would make the car to unstreetable. 
i like the idea of a lil t3 cis,IC, sds eic or digi and 15 psi+/-. with 200-220 at the wheels the car will be plenty fast. 1500-2000K into it.


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

The SMT6 will control 4 aditional injectors and will also advance or retard timing as per MAP sensor signal.Its also under $300


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (KOOTER)*

LINKY
http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt6.asp


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (KOOTER)*

p.s great fricking name......we had the sleezy girl at my work with a piercing down below so we called her kooter. she actually thought it was funny. shes gone now.....it's ok cause big bird took her place. although kooter is a funner word big bird(legs up to her face) is better to look at


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

I don't even want to know where you work


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (KOOTER)*

A BMW dealership. i sell parts for BMW. You have to find way to keep it interesting in the automotive business........ otherwise im libel to beat some yupey whiney cheap loser customer
B brakes
M Modules
W window regulators


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## Valthar (Aug 31, 2004)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

that SMT6 thing looks pretty sweet..who else here is using it? maybe someone can tell me more about it?


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: using SDS EIC to give extra fuel for CIS(or any other car!). Comments... (Valthar)*

http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt6.asp


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## TSRgeneral (Sep 27, 2004)

i bought the SDS EIC....
i mean, i wanted the setup for later tuneablitly and i had the money.. now, for my first FI project im not sure if i went the right way

now im confused on what PSI to run, b/c im ordering my wastegate... 
another question for the super nub like me, witha boost controller the Spring in the Tialwastegate doesnt matter or what> sorry.. if anyone would help me i would reallly accpeticate it


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