# Copper flakes in oil



## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

Changed my '06 BPY oil today, noticed large copper flakes in the oil filter and at the bottom of the pan when draining oil. I've already had my HPFP and cam replaced (at 34k miles) now I'm at 71k miles. I've been using Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w-40 for the majority of my oil changes, Motul 502 Specific for a couple. No CELs, power still there, no emissions issues, APR stage 1 for 40k. 

Any idea what this could be?


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## WankyAndy (Dec 10, 2010)

Could be something from the bass fittings from your fuel pump.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Are you sure those are copper? Can you take a look at them under a magnifying glass or hand lens? If you smash them are they brittle or do they "deform"? My guess is they are not copper but are oil degradation by products. It's hard to tell from the photo but they look like what some others have seen in DI turbo cars such as this quote from JAG on BITOG fro his 335i: 

"When I got it home from the free oil change at the dealer and looked inside the oil fill hole, I saw quite a few sand-sized particles loosely sitting on some internal valve cover surfaces. I wiped out what particles I could and put them on a piece of paper so I could view them under magnification to determine whether they are mostly carbon, metallic ash, or varnish particles. I think they must be varnish particles. They are reddish-brown, semi-transparent, non-brittle (malleable), and they have smooth surfaces." 

also form JAG, "I have an on-going experiment in which the particles I mentioned have been put into two virgin motor oils. They are in M1 0W-40 and Red Line 5W-30 which were heated to 200F for about 8 hours, ambient temp. for 2 days, then about 400F for 7 hours. Objective is to see if either oil could dissolve the particles. Much to my disappointment, neither oil has done any observable particle dissolving. So it begs the question of why. My hunch is that the particles are so advanced in the oxidation/other reaction process that their solubility in any motor oil is next to nil. I did notice when putting the particles in the oil test cups that they were brittle. It reminded me of metallic additive-derived ash that forms when motor oils is burnt. I will look at the particles again with magnification when I'm done with the test. Brittleness is not a trait I expect of varnish particles."


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

The particles are definitely metallic, as they shimmered in the light and between my fingers, they did not roll but were flat particles. Copper or brass as they were golden in color (hard to tell from the iPhone pics.) 

I was using Blackstone Labs for oil analysis for the first 30k miles but haven't since, but the next oil change I'll definitely get one. 

Thanks for the ideas and possible source.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

ahh I see. Might be worth while to do a ferrography or particle count too as those larger particles may not show up in a UOA. Definitely worthwhile to do a basic UOA if nothing else. 

Here is a neat ferrography report as an example: 

http://www.analystsinc.com/documents/Ferrographic_ex_report.pdf 

ferrography 

http://www.analystsinc.com/pages/3911/ 

particle count 

http://www.analystsinc.com/pages/3915/


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## fahrven (Apr 2, 2005)

*Make sure it is copper!!!*

Like it was suggested above - have the oil tested. If it is indeed copper and you have so much of it then you are destroying your rod bearings. Copper is the last layer under the consumable material in the bearings. Improper lubrication and hard driving at cold starts can prematurely wear them out . I would not drive the car until you get your oil analysis back.


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## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

That's rod bearings. That pretty much happens when you beat on the car before it's warmed up. Your rod bearing need to be replaced asap before you destroy your crank.


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## CaptainPumpkin (Nov 14, 2009)

Woah!!

Finally now I'm not the only one with this problem but I do feel bad for you. I posted on here and vortex almost a year ago with the same problem with my 07. 

Took it to one dealership and they supposedly checked the rod bearing and they were apparently in ok condition. Problem for me is that after taking it to a much better VW dealership the tech himself said that there is a possibility that the other dealership didn't actually check them as he has doubts based on the time spent, VW for me basically wont give approval for another dealership to check the same thing so I'm just doing UOA now unless something major happens.

The tech at the dealership I take it to now seemed surprised when he looked at the oil filter as well but he was basically told by VW techline to monitor other BPY's that come through the shop to receive oil changes to see if its normal. 15k later and I still see them in the oil and no major issues but I am dealing with massive fuel trim issues running rich at the moment with no explained reason so I'm going to be asking them to check it all out again.

UOA for my 07 turned up nothing major as far as problems but the was 3ppm of TIN found which I don't normally see on other UOA's of BPY engines.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Hey Corradio, I went back and looked at your old blackstone UOAs and it does look like bearing wear FWIW.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Sn? Wow.


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

wazzap1101 said:


> That's rod bearings. That pretty much happens when you beat on the car before it's warmed up. Your rod bearing need to be replaced asap before you destroy your crank.


Rod bearings can spin for a number of reasons, with synthetic oil its not so much a problem when cold, but still not good idea to run hard until warm. 

Having taken apart more than a few motors that have spun rods, you usually get thin flakes, almost sheets of what looks like tin foil coming out from around the rod and journal. It can be from oil starvation, poor assembly, a defective bearing or particles from some other failure making their way to the rod bearings and scoring them. 

OP, you said you replaced the intake cam and follower, did the original follower completely fail and wear through? Perhaps this is leftover material from that. I'd also have it analyzed, if it is copper you might want to drop the pan and inspect the bearings for wear. If the short block still sounds clean (no hint of knocking or weird noises) you may be fine. If the bearings are into the copper layer, that's extreme wear, an oil pressure test might also help diagnose if anythings up.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bostonaudi1 said:


> OP, you said you replaced the intake cam and follower, did the original follower completely fail and wear through? Perhaps this is leftover material from that..


Another question very closely related to this question is, "did they recover all the pieces of the broken cam follower?"-if it was indeed broken I mean. The pieces themselves could cause further damage to other areas. Just thinking out loud.


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

fahrven said:


> Like it was suggested above - have the oil tested. If it is indeed copper and you have so much of it then you are destroying your rod bearings. Copper is the last layer under the consumable material in the bearings. Improper lubrication and hard driving at cold starts can prematurely wear them out . I would not drive the car until you get your oil analysis back.


Interesting. I always drive gingerly (keep it under 3k RPM and no full throttle) until coolant shows normal temp... always check oil every 2 weeks and add enough to keep topped-off and use an oil that's one the best VW 502 approved I can find.

I'll get an analysis performed soon.


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

saaber2 said:


> Another question very closely related to this question is, "did they recover all the pieces of the broken cam follower?"-if it was indeed broken I mean. The pieces themselves could cause further damage to other areas. Just thinking out loud.


The cam follower wasn't broken as far as I know, I did get a flashing CEL and fuel cut while on the freeway because the HPFP wasn't building enough pressure. I had the 'A' style cam so I got a new cam, follower and HPFP during that service bulletin fix. 

My car was the first 2.0T cam, follower and HPFP to get replaced at this dealership... then later one of the first to get the A/C compressor and condenser replaced under that lovely service. :facepalm:

I need to drive my car for work, which is mostly freeway and 65mi round-trip so I'll drive easy for the next couple days until I can get an oil sample sent out to Blackstone and I'll keep everyone updated.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

corradokidg60 said:


> The cam follower wasn't broken as far as I know, I did get a flashing CEL and fuel cut while on the freeway because the HPFP wasn't building enough pressure. I had the 'A' style cam so I got a new cam, follower and HPFP during that service bulletin fix. .


In that case the follower probably was broken. Alot of people don't get CELs or fuel cuts even when they do break, not until the cam and pump tip wear down enough after it breaks. The TSB doesn't say to change the pump unless the follower has a hole in it.

From the TSB...........
" Inspect the tip of the high pressure fuel pump plunger for excessive wear.
If excessive wear is found the high pressure pump must also be
replaced, see Group 20 Fuel supply in ElsaWeb.
Tip: High pressure fuel pump plunger damage is only possible if the cam
follower base has a hole in it and the plunger tip has come in direct
contact with the camshaft lobe."


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

Yea, if you were experiencing fuel cuts then it's pretty safe to assume that the cam follower was completely destroyed... From the pictures you posted, there is A LOT of copper being shed from the source. I tend to agree with the others that rod bearings are the most obvious culprit because I don't know of any other wear surfaces made of copper in the FSI.

Somehow, a loss of oil control was introduced into the bottom end. My guess would be that a piece of old cam follower has gotten caught up in an oil passage, starving the bearing surface.

However, I also remember seeing pictures of rod bearings here on the forums that delaminated... Like the lead coating just peeled off. This is possibility, but highly unlikely seeing that your motor has already been taken apart for major repair.

No way in hell did the dealer drop your pan and pull all the bearing caps to thoroughly inspect. That's a bold lie directly to your face, even for shady VW service representatives... You have a serious engine problem, and VW needs to honor their warranty agreement. Prepare your arguement, evidence, and service records and politely and professionally seek the assistance of VWOA service representative. 

If you fail with this route, have an independent mechanic pull the bearing caps and inspect. Once you find the source of your issue, have the car towed to the dealer so they can verify the diagnosis. Anything less than a complete bottom end replacement is a waste of your time. Good luck...


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

saaber2 said:


> Hey Corradokid, I went back and looked at your old blackstone UOAs and it does look like bearing wear FWIW.


I just got the oil analysis back, but seems to show everything is fine  Engine still runs strong, no weird noises.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Difficult to determine much on a UOA of 1600 miles but if there were large lead numbers that would be a huge warning sign. And that isn't there, so that is good news. Interesting that this oil has sheared well into the 30 weight range in only 1600 miles. It's typical to what we're seeing with most all PAO-based 502 5w40 oils. 

One course of action a guy could try might be this: 1) Do a UOA with particle count at 5-6k miles on this oil run 2) then switch to an ester-based oil with strong anti-oxidant and anti-wear additive pack. Regarding the particle count, of course it depends how curious you are about those particles whether it is worth the extra expense or not. If you do a particle count, I would suggest using a lab that will give you a very good interpretation of the numbers. The particle count numbers alone are not that helpful, the expert interpretation is what is the most helpful. An inquiry to Dyson analysis regarding how much it would cost to do a UOA with particle count and what type of analysis you would get might be helpful.


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

saaber2 said:


> Difficult to determine much on a UOA of 1600 miles but if there were large lead numbers that would be a huge warning sign. And that isn't there, so that is good news. Interesting that this oil has sheared well into the 30 weight range in only 1600 miles. It's typical to what we're seeing with most all PAO-based 502 5w40 oils.
> 
> One course of action a guy could try might be this: 1) Do a UOA with particle count at 5-6k miles on this oil run 2) then switch to an ester-based oil with strong anti-oxidant and anti-wear additive pack. Regarding the particle count, of course it depends how curious you are about those particles whether it is worth the extra expense or not. If you do a particle count, I would suggest using a lab that will give you a very good interpretation of the numbers. The particle count numbers alone are not that helpful, the expert interpretation is what is the most helpful. An inquiry to Dyson analysis regarding how much it would cost to do a UOA with particle count and what type of analysis you would get might be helpful.


Motul 8100 X-cess is a blend of group IV and V ester-based oil, I believe which is why I'm using it. I did the analysis to get a clearer picture of what happened to leave all those flakes in my oil, and hopefully find out my engine's bearings aren't delaminating.


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