# My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine.



## Uberbunni (Jun 5, 2007)

With GIAC just releasing their '08 software, I took a step back into the past and compared the 08 dyno sheet with the 07's. Granted, dyno numbers constantly change and every application is different. Some might say that comparing dyno sheets is useless but they still offer accurate enough information, offering some semblance to which I can make some claims/inferences regarding the changes made between the 07 and 08.







08 Dyno from GIAC







07 dyno from GIAC.
There is no doubt that there is a much smoother and usable power band on the 08 as opposed to the 07-06. As with any new production motor, there will always be increasing levels of refinement. In this case, I can make the statement 08 engine is a finer tuned version of its previous counterparts.
In terms of actual "numbers" the stock 08 made on the average 141 whp 156 ft-lbs tq while the 07 made 141 154 ft-lbs tq. Leaving first grade math out of the equation one can see that this difference is not great. (Again, the variables for dyno numbers are more than I can count but, here we have the same manufacturer, same dynamometer, same people, working on the same type of car.(except it being an 08.) One other assumption I can make is that the 07 was dyno'ed in the advent of summer while the 08 was tested during a probably much cooler California Winter. (Again this may or may not be a huge underlying factor, correct me if I'm wrong)
After applying the the pump software two both cars we see the 08 gain numbers to 153 avg whp and 165 ft-lbs tq. 07 produced slightly lower number of 150 avg whp but 173 ft-lbs tq. Could this be a dyno glitch? probably, but a glitch that is 8 ft-lbs of torque to the wheels? In favor of the 07? I find it hard to dismiss that the previous 2.5s benefitted more in terms of tq with the chip. Lastly, with the Intake installed we see the 08 and 07s almost on par in terms of avg WHP, yet the 07-06s gaining more in terms of TQ. 
My conclusion is this, in numbers, these two cars are almost the same, but in terms of power delivery the 08 is superior, whether one likes it or not. There is definite proof to assume that there is a software change in the 08 to sort balance and harness the 2.5ls crazy torque output. But I will refute the existence of any major hardware changes to the 08 due to the fact that both cars are within the same power numbers, and at peak, the 07 edges out the 08 in terms of torque. The 07s have benefitted greatly from intakes as a one can see, gaining a considerable amount of usable torque. In a drag, yes the 08 is the contender to win, but in autocross, im not so sure....I think the 07s have a comparative advantage due to their higher, quicker peak torque curves..... I might be all wrong, but hey..I'm trying here....






















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## esp (Jun 11, 2007)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (Uberbunni)*

Kind of stepping into a possible argument here of which is better, but I would say that I expected this because the 08 models have had an ECU upgrade to improve output, so a tune could only do so much. A smoother powerband would also be a result of the part swaps made between the 07 and 08 2.5L motors. Therefore, with the 07< models having a less powerful ECU tune, with a chip, it doesnt really come to much surprise that they are about equal.


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## pdi192 (Jul 14, 2004)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (esp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *esp* »_Kind of stepping into a possible argument here of which is better, but I would say that I expected this because the 08 models have had an ECU upgrade to improve output, so a tune could only do so much. A smoother powerband would also be a result of the part swaps made between the 07 and 08 2.5L motors. Therefore, with the 07< models having a less powerful ECU tune, with a chip, it doesnt really come to much surprise that they are about equal.

...but they are not equal; i don't know how you guys don't notice this but the 07 model falls completely flat on its face in terms of power at right around 5200rpm, whereas the 08 model makes power all the way to the limiter at 6300; that's 1100rpm span is quite a large one considering it's 1/6th of the entire powerband in these cars; that right there is proof that the changes between the two versions of the engine is not simply software, but hardware as well


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## KampfGTI (Mar 28, 2007)

that extra rev range and power on top will definitely give an '08 an advantage in autoX


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

i agree also, unfortunately i see this turning into a can of worms before it gets to far. It's interesting to see the graphs compared side by side, what is pretty impressive to me is the smooth torque curve of the 2008. I wasn't overly surprised by the higher torque value however on the 07, as i believe torque did drop off on the 08 model year. Having the extra "umph" up top is nice also, and points to something more than software. As far as i can tell, the choppy torque delivery on the 07 (even w/ the GIAC tune) tells me there's more than software there also, as GIAC should have been able to get a smooth power application if software was the only difference, which to me points to something more internal to the engine.


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## IJSTROK (Oct 2, 2007)

So the 08s are slow and the 07s< are slightly slower?


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## digitaltim (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (Uberbunni)*

I've seen the dynos months ago and thought I remembered the 08's having about 7 more peak HP.... I wanted to chime in for "20 more HP" touters, but I saved my breath.
Its nice that you took the time to find some dynos. 
Some people don't understand the variations of same year / model cars and dynos.. dynos measure gain the most accurately.........of the same car, modified, and then retested.
If you can get a good deal on a (05,06,07) < 08 then its worth the savings, but if you're going to pay the same as an 08 buy the 08.....its a no brainer.


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## travis3265 (Nov 15, 2003)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (pdi192)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pdi192* »_
...but they are not equal; i don't know how you guys don't notice this but the 07 model falls completely flat on its face in terms of power at right around 5200rpm, whereas the 08 model makes power all the way to the limiter at 6300; that's 1100rpm span is quite a large one considering it's 1/6th of the entire powerband in these cars; that right there is proof that the changes between the two versions of the engine is not simply software, but hardware as well

do you notice the 07's get their peak torque (which is 11lb ft more) earlier than the 08's and that the 08's torque also drops of a bit faster? its just trade offs. they seriously will just about turn out the exact same 1/4 mile whether you want to believe it or not. torque is what moves a car, hp keeps it going. what means is, the 07 will be a bit quicker off the bat in each gear, whereas the the 08 will play some catch up at the end of each gear going back and forth until they cross the line at pretty much the same time. seriously though, WHO DRAG RACES AN N/A RABBIT!?!?!? 
no one is discounting that there were hardware changes made. its very obvious. but the 20hp thing...haha, hardly.

I also wanted to respond to the discussion in the original post about the dynos being performed in different seasons and conditions. I would really like to see the 07 dyno's at that same facility during under similar conditions. I do admit that the 07 dyno posted is atrocious looking (all the ups and downs), but it just makes me think something was off on the dyno. If it turns out dynoing and looking the same, then hats off to VWoA for refining the engine.


_Modified by travis3265 at 10:35 AM 1-31-2008_


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## digitaltim (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (travis3265)*


_Quote, originally posted by *travis3265* »_

I also wanted to respond to the discussion in the original post about the dynos being performed in different seasons and conditions. I would really like to see the 07 dyno's at that same facility during under similar conditions. I do admit that the 07 dyno posted is atrocious looking (all the ups and downs), but it just makes me think something was off on the dyno. If it turns out dynoing and looking the same, then hats off to VWoA for refining the engine.
_Modified by travis3265 at 10:35 AM 1-31-2008_

I think the one thing that has been consistent with the non 08 dynos is the "ups and downs"


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## KampfGTI (Mar 28, 2007)

its obivious that the 20hp for the '08s is bhp, not whp....with that said a gain of 7whp on the dyno is probably right on with a gain 20bhp....bhp gains are not 1 for 1 on a chassis dyno


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## vdub305 (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (Uberbunni)*

There isn't really a difference between the 07 and 08 2.5l's at all i have driven my 07 and a 08 doesn't feel different at all to me.


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## travis3265 (Nov 15, 2003)

*Re: (KampfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KampfGTI* »_its obivious that the 20hp for the '08s is bhp, not whp....with that said a gain of 7whp on the dyno is probably right on with a gain 20bhp....bhp gains are not 1 for 1 on a chassis dyno

7whp? its 6whp stock and the most noticeable thing i see is that its only 1whp more on the 08 once they each have an intake and chip and 11lb ft more on the 07's.
It is weird though about the 07's dynos being all over the place though.


_Modified by travis3265 at 3:11 PM 1-31-2008_


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## KampfGTI (Mar 28, 2007)

^ur forgetting that 07 was dynoed with 91 octane, and chances are that '08 had not too many miles on it...most engines won't make peak power till they get broken in well.....i agree there's not much difference power wise but what did u expect for 20bhp


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## vr_vento95 (Nov 26, 2004)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (pdi192)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pdi192* »_
...but they are not equal; i don't know how you guys don't notice this but the 07 model falls completely flat on its face in terms of power at right around 5200rpm, whereas the 08 model makes power all the way to the limiter at 6300; that's 1100rpm span is quite a large one considering it's 1/6th of the entire powerband in these cars; that right there is proof that the changes between the two versions of the engine is not simply software, but hardware as well

look my car is an 07 with GIAC and it pulls to about 5800rpms no problem. However when you spin 2nd gear to 6700rpms then put it in 3rd your right in peak torque and it's bye bye 08 bunny, I've ran 2 08's from a dead stop this way and threw the leash out the window.







Granted it's only about 1-2 car lenghts by the end of 4th gear, but still. So an 06-07 falling on it's face after 5200rpms is just wrong. The 08's are not much different and yes have a smoother power curve but I'll still fuchs with ya







happy tuning


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## pdi192 (Jul 14, 2004)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (vr_vento95)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr_vento95* »_
look my car is an 07 with GIAC and it pulls to about 5800rpms no problem. However when you spin 2nd gear to 6700rpms then put it in 3rd your right in peak torque and it's bye bye 08 bunny, I've ran 2 08's from a dead stop this way and threw the leash out the window.







Granted it's only about 1-2 car lenghts by the end of 4th gear, but still. So an 06-07 falling on it's face after 5200rpms is just wrong. The 08's are not much different and yes have a smoother power curve but I'll still fuchs with ya







happy tuning 

of course you beat them, they were STOCK; I swear some people amaze me these days


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## travis3265 (Nov 15, 2003)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (pdi192)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pdi192* »_
of course you beat them, they were STOCK; I swear some people amaze me these days









right, but after chip and intake, the 07 still has much more torque in comparison. line em up and race em or dyno em on the same day in the same conditions....until then its all speculation, but at this point if you look at numbers alone, the 07 is ahead.


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## travis3265 (Nov 15, 2003)

*Re: (KampfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KampfGTI* »_^ur forgetting that 07 was dynoed with 91 octane, and chances are that '08 had not too many miles on it...most engines won't make peak power till they get broken in well.....i agree there's not much difference power wise but what did u expect for 20bhp

i didnt forget anything. they were both dynod on 91 octane, whats your point? then you talk about being broken in....what, do you think the 07 had 50,000 miles on it or something? remember, it was dyno'd back in 07.


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## vr_vento95 (Nov 26, 2004)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (pdi192)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pdi192* »_
of course you beat them, they were STOCK; I swear some people amaze me these days









Ummm actually one was stock the other had a CAI. Look junior I know what I'm talking about. I've been into moding, tuning and racing dubs since you were 10 years old. I love how these young punks think they know it all.










_Modified by vr_vento95 at 12:21 PM 2-3-2008_


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## Crubb3d Rymz (Dec 25, 2006)

*Re: My findings between the 07(06) and 08 2.5 engine. (vr_vento95)*


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## motocaddy (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (IJSTROK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IJSTROK* »_So the 08s are slow and the 07s< are slightly slower?









Exactly. Hopefully we will never have to read a "Where are the dynos for an '08 2.5L? I have 20 hp more." post ever again.
Having driven both, I've always thought the '08 had smoother power delivery, but have known that an extra 20 hp just wasn't there. 
To all that have argued with me on this: I was right, you were wrong.


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## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (motocaddy)*

This is great information. I am picking up an 07 this week and always wondered the truth behind the so called more power of the 08's. Yall think maybe VW's numbers weren't totally correct for the 07's?


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## chefvdub (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: (ktm8806)*

so just save the money and get a pre loved rabbit? that is the question... should i get an '07 hmm........


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## peachypotpies (Feb 6, 2008)

*Re: (chefvdub)*

Preloved? Why do they call it that. Sounds so cheesy.







Actually sounds like you're 2nd in line for a bordillo girl that just got done with another john.


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## Erik04gti (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: (peachypotpies)*

im working on getting my dyno sheet scanned, but my 07 dyno was very smooth and didn't look like the one posted above


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## VinnieGI1.8T2002 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (Erik04gti)*

from everything that i have learned and questions i have asked my instructors at VW school the only difference between an 07 and 08 2.5
is the OEM software thats it everything else is the same


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (VinnieGI1.8T2002)*

thnx


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