# Gonzo Tuning GTT vs. Frankenturbo F21 the REAL scoop!



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I am posting this as a NEUTRAL party! This is for GT and FT to hash out their differences without derailing other people's threads. 

For all of you who want to say that I have any motives I'll put it this way, I was a HUGE supporter of FT and they decided to not give me any reason to keep supporting them (if you want details search it). I am a TESTER for Gonzo Tuning, I still am. I have made this thread for others to post their issues. I don't give a damn anymore. I know the truth, I know ALL of the truth, ALL of the details and since I don't work for either company I'm not going to do any more than start this thread. 

So,

tell us, who did what, what does what, who was first, who is best, what numbers do we see, why is GTT better or worse than FT and vice versa. 

To this point, I'm done here. 

Doug and GT have at it, do it here like men and stop the childish crap. You want to have it out, THIS is the ring. Put your gloves on, get in the ring and let's get this thing done! opcorn:

*This user gets the point exactly so I will just toss this up here as well,
*
*Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 
*
_Something like this would be nice if everyone cooperates.

Biggest thing for me is that it needs to be restricted to people who have actually bought one kit or the other, or even both.

I see these threads and it seems like the people who are talking the most **** have never actually done business with the vendor they are talking **** on.

Would also be good if the people who try to correct everyone else don't get involved. Tired of seeing people try and tell a vendor they don't know what they are doing. If you know that much about the subject, where is your tune?



Would love to see some solid, unbiased comparison between the two kits. I have a few suggestions for things to compare as well, from a customer stand point;

Price of the Kit
Completeness? What does the Kit come with
Requirements? What parts are needed for the base level?
Claimed HP Max (on similar fuel if possible)
Software Provider
Known Issues?
Known benefits?

Any reviews on support after purchase and install would also be great._


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Something like this would be nice if everyone cooperates.

Biggest thing for me is that it needs to be restricted to people who have actually bought one kit or the other, or even both.

I see these threads and it seems like the people who are talking the most **** have never actually done business with the vendor they are talking **** on.

Would also be good if the people who try to correct everyone else don't get involved. Tired of seeing people try and tell a vendor they don't know what they are doing. If you know that much about the subject, where is your tune?



Would love to see some solid, unbiased comparison between the two kits. I have a few suggestions for things to compare as well, from a customer stand point;

Price of the Kit
Completeness? What does the Kit come with
Requirements? What parts are needed for the base level?
Claimed HP Max (on similar fuel if possible)
Software Provider
Known Issues?
Known benefits?

Any reviews on support after purchase and install would also be great.


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## jpserra (Jul 16, 2013)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Something like this would be nice if everyone cooperates.
> 
> Biggest thing for me is that it needs to be restricted to people who have actually bought one kit or the other, or even both.
> 
> ...


this:thumbup: posting dynos or videos would be great too

had my eye on both the f23 and the GTT for a while now and they both look promising but i have to say, all this nonsense coming from the gonzo team is making them look pretty bad. id like to hear about something else other than what doug did last weekend, no matter what the "facts" are.

id definitely like to see something good come out of this, especially with black friday around the corner:thumbup:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

I made 355 WHP and 368 WTQ on E85 with an off the shelf GTT kit on my car. Stock head, stock intake manifold, no water/meth, and a 2.5" exhaust. I paid $800 for the turbo and software, $120 for a high flow cast mani, $140 for a set of used Siemens 830s, and $80 for a used silicone TIH = $1140. 

Just the facts...


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## jpserra (Jul 16, 2013)

4ceFed4 said:


> I made 355 WHP and 368 WTQ on E85 with an off the shelf GTT kit on my car. Stock head, stock intake manifold, no water/meth, and a 2.5" exhaust. I paid $800 for the turbo and software, $120 for a high flow cast mani, $140 for a set of used Siemens 830s, and $80 for a used silicone TIH = $1140.
> 
> Just the facts...


seen your thread, incredible power and awesome results and a great price man. id like to see some pump gas numbers too


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

jpserra said:


> seen your thread, incredible power and awesome results and a great price man. id like to see some pump gas numbers too


I have a developed 93 octane program. If someone wants to sponsor a dyno session I'll show up and strap it down. Otherwise not worth my time and money to test with a fuel I don't use.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

4ceFed4 said:


> I have a developed 93 octane program. If someone wants to sponsor a dyno session I'll show up and strap it down. Otherwise not worth my time and money to test with a fuel I don't use.


PM me buddy. This needs to happen:beer:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

FT < DBB 50 Trim > GTT :laugh:opcorn:


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Big_Tom said:


> FT < DBB 50 Trim > GTT :laugh:opcorn:


I see what you did there:sly::wave:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Big_Tom said:


> FT < DBB 50 Trim > GTT :laugh:opcorn:


:laugh:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> PM me buddy. This needs to happen:beer:


Gonzo texted me about meeting up to develop a GTTx race fuel program on the dyno, maybe I'll run some 93 through that day too. :thumbup:



Big_Tom said:


> FT < DBB 50 Trim > GTT :laugh:opcorn:


Have you hit the rollers or track since you installed the new turbo?


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

4ceFed4 said:


> I made 355 WHP and 368 WTQ on E85 with an off the shelf GTT kit on my car. Stock head, stock intake manifold, no water/meth, and a 2.5" exhaust. I paid $800 for the turbo and software, $120 for a high flow cast mani, $140 for a set of used Siemens 830s, and $80 for a used silicone TIH = $1140.
> 
> Just the facts...


I don't know the details between you and Gonzo but I don't think any regular customer can purchase the kit for 1140. FWIW, the gonzo kit is $1700 introductory (+shipping?), and Gonzo does all the tunes for you. The equivalent F21 kit is 1825 + shipping with Eurodyne, but you have to consider that Eurodyne will serve as an excellent learning/customzing tool that can carry on to your future big turbo setups, which a lot of people insinuate on being inevitable. Food for thought. 

Gonzo needs to market his product better. I see one dyno sheet with E85, one picture of the turbo, and one compressor map in comparison with a K04. 
FT has pretty pictures, micrometer measurements of the turbine wheel, flow maps, multiple dynos, etc. 

Yeah we all know what a K-frame turbo looks like, and maybe i'm alone on this one but I wouldn't buy from someone who isn't "showing off" their product. Hell, look at ECS. They'll take 2-3 pictures of a single freaking nut or a gasket. I'm not sold on only word of mouth that Gonzo or Doug is a good guy. 

I want to state that I'm not biased. I'm merely a customer who after buying an F21 saw the "official" release of the GTT and was curious, and have also unavoidably caught up on the drama as I was trying to research before buying the F21.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

**Shipping is free with our GTTX kits, and they are currently $1450 if you preorder the new system; which includes our new billet wheeled turbocharger, with larger 11 blade turbine. 

**The difference in price of software is all you'll pay to upgrade to a BT tune, plus a nominal $50 fee.

**We tweak our tunes for free; so long as the customer doesn't alter their hardware significantly. 

**we offer 24/7 customer support for both our hardware, and software; which includes lifetime help with troubleshooting, etc. even if its unrelated to our products



*edit: I agree that we need more pretty pictures, etc.*


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> I don't know the details between you and Gonzo but I don't think any regular customer can purchase the kit for 1140. FWIW, the gonzo kit is $1700 introductory (+shipping?), and Gonzo does all the tunes for you. The equivalent F21 kit is 1825 + shipping with Eurodyne, but you have to consider that Eurodyne will serve as an excellent learning/customzing tool that can carry on to your future big turbo setups, which a lot of people insinuate on being inevitable. Food for thought.
> 
> Gonzo needs to market his product better. I see one dyno sheet with E85, one picture of the turbo, and one compressor map in comparison with a K04.
> FT has pretty pictures, micrometer measurements of the turbine wheel, flow maps, multiple dynos, etc.
> ...


Understanding what you're saying, you are missing one HUGE aspect. The first set of GTT turbo's are now gone, there's a new GTT that utilizes an 11 blade turbine and billet parts. The new GTT-X line is second to none in quality. Comparing the F21 to the GTTX line is like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari. These new turbochargers have the potential for 400bhp. I'm not even sure Gonzo himself knows this  I have been speaking with some of the best hybrid builders about upgrading and modifying the first gen GTT I have, and what I've been told to do is what has been done with the GTT-X line. The person I'm speaking of is making nearly 400bhp on a K03 Hybrid, it's well documented and can be found if you do the research. I only choose not to bring his name into this for his own benefit, and so he's not dragged into a FT / GTS war as I have a lot of respect for this man. 

I am no longer a sales person, advertiser, or really even a tester for GTS. Just a friend. 

I can without a doubt tell you the new set of turbos have more potential than the seller even knows. There may need to be some hot side machining to open up flow a little more, besides that it's a turbo capable of amazing feats. They have decided to take a hint from the big names in turbo manufacturing and instead of cramming bigger unbalanced wheels in the turbo, they're paying more to give you the newest most effective technology. All of this and they are keeping the prices down. With the amount of R&D that has gone into this project as well as the upgraded design any other company would be selling the turbos themselves (without anything else) for $1500+  Yes that sounds insane for a K series turbo, but when you are getting a full bolt on package that can be installed in a day, and then driven to its full potential immediately without tuning sessions and tinkering, that value looks a lot better. But wait! They are selling the whole package for under $2,000! There's NO other kit on the market that can achieve what this GTT-X kit is capable of. 

I'm positive you will get pretty pictures and graphs soon enough. Gonzo Tuning has been going through a major overhaul and there's more to come.

Also, just because a company makes a site filled with puns and offensive pictures of people from the Appalachian mountains doesn't show anything more than that. A site with pictures and little slogans to pique interest and make them seem like the fun guy to buy from. Personally I think the site I'm speaking of is about as professional as... well it's not professional. Why the hell would I want to buy a product from a company that considers everything a joke. Every name is either a pun or offensive. 

Just, wait. You'll regret going with the F21 when you see the new turbo. There's a very specific reason he is keeping his cards close to his chest. The GTT was already stolen in its first generation and he's not letting it happen again. So you may not get pictures of turbines, compressors, waste gates, and size specifications because they are trade secrets right now. If he were to let them out now, it would be no time before we'd see a F2-X or a Frankenfurter X or whatever with the same specs. 

Trust me when I say, he has a plan, he has a solid product and in this market there will be no other competition in the USA. I can't speak for Europe since those crazy guys have been tinkering with hybrids forever


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

Fair enough, both are competing for the market and confidentiality is very important. I forgot about Gonzo's black friday thread as far as advertising the new GTTx. Sounds promising, we'll see how they pan out when they are officially released.

One thing I would like to ask: I have read that both the GTT and F21's were manufactured in the same overseas factory. How about the WGA? How does GTT's differ from F21 and from stock? We have seen the F21 vs stock actuator here but I would like to hear about Gonzo's because as it was mentioned in Fouad's thread, "Anyone can do a custom tune and make an unknown actuator work. Nobody can do a canned tune if the actuators vary." 

Since Gonzo's tunes are all application specific, what's to say his WGA's and their settings are any different than the F21?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> Fair enough, both are competing for the market and confidentiality is very important. I forgot about Gonzo's black friday thread as far as advertising the new GTTx. Sounds promising, we'll see how they pan out when they are officially released.
> 
> One thing I would like to ask: I have read that both the GTT and F21's were manufactured in the same overseas factory. How about the WGA? How does GTT's differ from F21 and from stock? We have seen the F21 vs stock actuator here but I would like to hear about Gonzo's because as it was mentioned in Fouad's thread, "Anyone can do a custom tune and make an unknown actuator work. Nobody can do a canned tune if the actuators vary."
> 
> Since Gonzo's tunes are all application specific, what's to say his WGA's and their settings are any different than the F21?


He does use a different actuator on the original GTT and the new GTT-X (from what I hear) has an upgraded unit that outperforms the OEM KKK/BW part. 

_I know I said I wouldn't post in this thread. I'll restate that, I won't argue or make accusations in this thread. I will give information that I know and maybe an opinion here and there._


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

jonpwn said:


> Since Gonzo's tunes are all application specific, what's to say his WGA's and their settings are any different than the F21?


Key word here is consistency.

The actuators we offer with our kits are consistent enough where we can develop an over the shelf tune that does not require much (if any tweaking) for perfect boost control out of the box.

We simply do not offer "pretty" graphics because we think its irrelevant. Graphs of airflows and such are really unnecessary and sometimes downright deceiving.

We care about the things that matter: Power, reliability, driveability, and affordability. But most importantly, power


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

here are the cold hard facts:

People with FT and an understanding on how to make them work love them. same goes for GTT I'm sure.

the difference is threads like this, only one brand feels the need to Prove them self. and feels that attacking the other is the way of making head way into the community. frankly makes me never want anything gonzo. hopfully GTT guys will grow up and understand they both are a tiny turbo and most wont buy them for real power because if your gonna do internals to have over 300ft tq your gonna put a BIG TURBO on the engine and that will out perform any FT or GTT so as long as they bolth get you to 300ft tq they are the same. how far you can push them over the torque limit of the rods is a retarded argument. any you can say oh well ive had 300+ for over a year now.... who cares I've seen APR tuned k04 push a rod through the block. and would not want that to happen to my engine just because I was too cheep to buy rods. 

and if you have done rods and are putting one of these turbos on your engine you should seriously look at whats available. I would not put a FT or a GTT on a built engine. 

First hand I know the FT is a quick spooling excellent direct fit upgrade for a stock bottom end. my little F21 is more then enough turbo to bend my rods. and the spool is IMO better then a k03s. 

So the question might be not whats the max power you can squeeze out of these turbos, but how fast they make the power available. AKA spool time.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> here are the cold hard facts:
> 
> People with FT and an understanding on how to make them work love them. same goes for GTT I'm sure.
> 
> ...


This is completely irrelevant to this thread. 

Second, this thread isn't for bashing. It's to keep the arguing out of other peoples threads. 

Any FT or GTT user can come in here and give their experience. THAT is the point of this thread. So people who are deciding can see the grievances or not with either turbo. 

It's strange you suddenly appear when this thread has no bashing whatsoever. We know what the deal with you is, stay out of my threads. Did you get free turbo to do things like this?

Get out of this thread, or I'll ask the mods to get you out. This isn't for your BS.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

taverncustoms said:


> hopfully GTT guys will grow up and understand they both are a tiny turbo and most wont buy them for real power because if your gonna do internals to have over 300ft tq your gonna put a BIG TURBO on the engine and that will out perform any FT or GTT so as long as they bolth get you to 300ft tq they are the same.


Why don't you tell Max that? I mean, he has won multiple races and he has done it with his stock turbo. Now he is going with a hybrid...

Before you come and say the "GTT guys need to grow up" you should be aware that half of the guys running GTT's have either built or been in a Big Turbo car and decided that was not for them. Gonzo Tuning offers Big Turbo tunes as well and when a customers power goals fall in the Big Turbo range, we always advise them to go that route.

Also, you do not need rods with proper boost control. People have blown their motor with K04-001's/FT's simply because they spike 30psi+, sometimes even at part throttle. 9/10 times its not because they are making enough power with their turbo.
A good tune will mitigate these problems.



taverncustoms said:


> So the question might be not whats the max power you can squeeze out of these turbos, but *how fast they make the power available. AKA spool time.*


Spool and cost are the main reason why people go for a hybrid. You can have a super wide power curve with excellent spool/response time, which is great for Auto-x and the such.

THOSE are the cold hard facts. Your opinions are just opinions.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

4ceFed4 said:


> Gonzo texted me about meeting up to develop a GTTx race fuel program on the dyno, maybe I'll run some 93 through that day too. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you hit the rollers or track since you installed the new turbo?


yes i have actually, just not been posting anything real on here since they locked my build thread and banned me. lol you guys can figure it out :laugh:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Big_Tom said:


> yes i have actually, just not been posting anything real on here since they locked my build thread and banned me. lol you guys can figure it out :laugh:


Post it on Facebook I wanna see the difference made from the BB turbo


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> This is completely irrelevant to this thread.
> 
> Second, this thread isn't for bashing. It's to keep the arguing out of other peoples threads.
> 
> ...


LOL for being open minded and unbiased you appear to want to kick the first FT owner with the balls to post in your thread. this is the immature behavior that has been posted about and that i was referring to. and I did share my FT experiences I talked about the spool characteristics of the F21 turbo and asked for a comparison to GTT a very valid question.



[email protected] said:


> Spool and cost are the main reason why people go for a hybrid. You can have a super wide power curve with excellent spool/response time, which is great for Auto-x and the such.


And no I'm simply stating facts for any one who might stumble into this thread. I don't work for or ever get free stuff from FT check my build thread it covers all the issues I've run into with the F21 kit. I laid it out like it is.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5999892-F21-frankenturbo-DIY-BUILD-180hp-QUATTRO


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> LOL for being open minded and unbiased you appear to want to kick the first FT owner with the balls to post in your thread. this is the immature behavior that has been posted about and that i was referring to. and I did share my FT experiences I talked about the spool characteristics of the F21 turbo and asked for a comparison to GTT a very valid question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:sly:opcorn:

One... Literally ONE sentence that came from you was on topic. The rest was nonsense. I am being unbiased. Ask the people with FT that I'm tuning. I could've pushed them into getting GTT turbos, I didn't. 

You never bring anything but drama. That's all you ever do and we all know it. :wave:


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Why don't you tell Max that? I mean, he has won multiple races and he has done it with his stock turbo. Now he is going with a hybrid...
> 
> Before you come and say the "GTT guys need to grow up" you should be aware that half of the guys running GTT's have either built or been in a Big Turbo car and decided that was not for them. Gonzo Tuning offers Big Turbo tunes as well and when a customers power goals fall in the Big Turbo range, we always advise them to go that route.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the grow up part, just tired of getting flamed because I'm not a GTT owner.

I'm glad you agree with me this thread should be about spool characteristics not big hp. so any GTT guys wanna talk about spool?


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> :sly:opcorn:
> 
> One... Literally ONE sentence that came from you was on topic. The rest was nonsense. I am being unbiased. Ask the people with FT that I'm tuning. I could've pushed them into getting GTT turbos, I didn't.
> 
> You never bring anything but drama. That's all you ever do and we all know it. :wave:


I felt it was all relevant. I was merely pointing out that a FT/GTT comparison should be more about spool then Big HP figures. because the only reason to pick a FT or a GTT is to remain on stock rods or fast spool. eace:


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> Understanding what you're saying, you are missing one HUGE aspect. The first set of GTT turbo's are now gone, there's a new GTT that utilizes an 11 blade turbine and billet parts. The new GTT-X line is second to none in quality. Comparing the F21 to the GTTX line is like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari. These new turbochargers have the potential for 400bhp. I'm not even sure Gonzo himself knows this  I have been speaking with some of the best hybrid builders about upgrading and modifying the first gen GTT I have, and what I've been told to do is what has been done with the GTT-X line. The person I'm speaking of is making nearly 400bhp on a K03 Hybrid, it's well documented and can be found if you do the research. I only choose not to bring his name into this for his own benefit, and so he's not dragged into a FT / GTS war as I have a lot of respect for this man.
> 
> I am no longer a sales person, advertiser, or really even a tester for GTS. Just a friend.
> 
> ...


this is 98% speculation no real facts. just drama telling people they will regret going with a f21 is just trolling and you know it, so don't act like I'm the reason this thread is gonna turn into a flame thread you have already done that.


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> so gonzo are you going to man up and have a car to run against one of dogs car at wf?


Psh why wouldn't anyone want this. It maybe the single idea to bring this debate/drama to a positive ending.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Budsdubbin said:


> Psh why wouldn't anyone want this. It maybe the single idea to bring this debate/drama to a positive ending.


Personally I like the idea of a heads up grudge match.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)




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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> so gonzo are you going to man up and have a car to run against one of dogs car at wf?


You made a great effort to try and get this rolling last year, and nobody from Team Frankenturbo showed up. My idea is for you to take a car from each side down the track yourself, maybe rent out some of those sticky tires of yours for a couple runs, and see who comes out on top. I'll be at WF this year, as well as Spring and Fall Show & Go hopefully, if anyone wants to throw down... :wave:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

4ceFed4 said:


> You made a great effort to try and get this rolling last year, and nobody from Team Frankenturbo showed up. My idea is for you to take a car from each side down the track yourself, maybe rent out some of those sticky tires of yours for a couple runs, and see who comes out on top. I'll be at WF this year, as well as Spring and Fall Show & Go hopefully, if anyone wants to throw down... :wave:


Interesting how they don't show up huh? :sly:


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> I felt it was all relevant. I was merely pointing out that a FT/GTT comparison should be more about spool then Big HP figures. because the only reason to pick a FT or a GTT is to remain on stock rods or fast spool. eace:


Why can't I put rods in my car and up the boost on my hybrid just a bit and have the ultimate peace of mind? What if I want the fast spool of a hybrid and the 300bhp-400bhp that the GTTX is expected to put out? 

Spool comparison would best be displayed through dyno plots, which I'm having a hard time finding examples of from Gonzo. But if you wanted fast spool, why don't you stick with the k03s since it's spools faster? Because we all want more power. Gonzo and FT both want to find the ultimate balance of spool and HP, so HP/TQ figures are relevant. 

I believe this thread is for those who are *deciding *between FT and GTT (correct me if I'm wrong). Obviously I wouldn't buy a GTT turbo kit right now and undo my F21 kit. If I ever go back to this car or if my F21 starts to fail on me, I would highly consider big turbo over hybrid. But that is neither here nor there. 

DMVDUB has been more than accommodating as far as sharing his knowledge to anybody who respectfully asks. 

Btw other than 4ce4ed and DMVDUB, I don't know of any other GTT users. Hopefully we can get some input from the customers of the initial 1700$ release a few weeks ago to balance out the ratio of FT to GTT users. Can we get some of these guys to shed some light, if not for this silly thread then for the hybrid turbo community?


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

jonpwn said:


> Btw other than 4ce4ed and DMVDUB, I don't know of any other GTT users. Hopefully we can get some input from the customers of the initial 1700$ release a few weeks ago to balance out the ratio of FT to GTT users. Can we get some of these guys to shed some light, if not for this silly thread then for the hybrid turbo community?


There are a good number of GTT users out there, but most of them aren't 1.8T forum regulars for anything other than technical help. I get a PM every week or two from someone who just picked up a GTT and has questions about getting it setup. If you look at Ant's maintenance is paramount thread he ran a GTT kit for a while and had some of the best 93 octane numbers I have seen for the kit. There are others with posts out there as well.

The key with all the hybrids isn't peak HP or even fast spool necessary, it's average HP and TQ over the whole rev range. For motorsports use having a car with the fattest possible powerband is what makes you finish the fastest. The other issue specific to the motorsports crowd are restrictor plates that we have to run on the inlet size, making a stock framed turbo the best option for power period. A hybrid turbo that already has a <60mm inlet is going to perform a lot better with the 57mm restrictor I have to run than some big turbo.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

jonpwn said:


> Why can't I put rods in my car and up the boost on my hybrid just a bit and have the ultimate peace of mind? What if I want the fast spool of a hybrid and the 300bhp-400bhp that the GTTX is expected to put out?
> 
> Spool comparison would best be displayed through dyno plots, which I'm having a hard time finding examples of from Gonzo. But if you wanted fast spool, why don't you stick with the k03s since it's spools faster? Because we all want more power. Gonzo and FT both want to find the ultimate balance of spool and HP, so HP/TQ figures are relevant.
> 
> ...


if your going to put the time and $ into the block to support over 300ftlb of tq you can afford a good turbo for example:

BorgWarner EFR 6258 Turbo (179150)

The EFR 6258 is the smallest and fastest spooling EFR turbocharger in the lineup. Ideal for small engines in single OR twin turbo configuration, this is an excellent turbocharger for autocross, rally, drift, road racing and street driven applications. The 62mm OD compressor has a 49.6mm inducer rated at 44lb/min max flow - supporting up to 440hp. This compressor wheel is versatile with very large map width for outstanding power potential, even at high boost. The low inertia 58mm Gamma-Ti turbine wheel is optimally matched for maximum response and fast spool with the FMW compressor wheel. EFR 6258 uses the smallest-sized EFR compressor housing, making fitment in the tightest engine bays possible. Ideal for use in single turbo applications for the 260-440hp range, or as twin turbo applications 400-700+hp **will not shuffle in twin turbo configuration like twin garretts** Ceramic Ball Bearing only, watercooling recommended.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> if your going to put the time and $ into the block to support over 300ftlb of tq you can afford a good turbo for example:
> 
> BorgWarner EFR 6258 Turbo (179150)
> 
> The EFR 6258 is the smallest and fastest spooling EFR turbocharger in the lineup. Ideal for small engines in single OR twin turbo configuration, this is an excellent turbocharger for autocross, rally, drift, road racing and street driven applications. The 62mm OD compressor has a 49.6mm inducer rated at 44lb/min max flow - supporting up to 440hp. This compressor wheel is versatile with very large map width for outstanding power potential, even at high boost. The low inertia 58mm Gamma-Ti turbine wheel is optimally matched for maximum response and fast spool with the FMW compressor wheel. EFR 6258 uses the smallest-sized EFR compressor housing, making fitment in the tightest engine bays possible. Ideal for use in single turbo applications for the 260-440hp range, or as twin turbo applications 400-700+hp **will not shuffle in twin turbo configuration like twin garretts** Ceramic Ball Bearing only, watercooling recommended.


Once again completely irrelevant to this thread. Please go on your way unless you have something on topic... THIS is absolutely not.

You're also talking a MAJOR price difference. If you think building an EFR setup is even remotely the same price range as a Hybrid all you've done is shown your cards. :wave:

Taking a page from the MK4 kids, GTFO Noob eace:

opcorn:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

This is getting pretty off topic. I may split the thread


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

groggory said:


> This is getting pretty off topic. I may split the thread


Gettting off topic?! Im not actually sure what the topic is!


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

4ceFed4 said:


> You made a great effort to try and get this rolling last year, and nobody from Team Frankenturbo showed up. My idea is for you to take a car from each side down the track yourself, maybe rent out some of those sticky tires of yours for a couple runs, and see who comes out on top. I'll be at WF this year, as well as Spring and Fall Show & Go hopefully, if anyone wants to throw down... :wave:


I can't rent out my slicks since I run 13 inch rims but someone should speak to Doug about this. I think he will be all for it. Hopefully gonzo can bring other cars out also.


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

jonpwn said:


> Btw other than 4ce4ed and DMVDUB, I don't know of any other GTT users. Hopefully we can get some input from the customers of the initial 1700$ release a few weeks ago to balance out the ratio of FT to GTT users. Can we get some of these guys to shed some light, if not for this silly thread then for the hybrid turbo community?


Gonzo turbos sold - maybe 30-40?
Ft kits sold - thousands 
Better to get a comparison of products when they have sold an equal number of products and the years of research and testing and improvements and problems found have been worked on. 
According to thread posts gtt turbos have been sold for a little more than a year or so. Ft has been selling turbos since 2009. Wonder who copied who for what. 
Just sayin


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Beachbuggy said:


> Gettting off topic?! Im not actually sure what the topic is!


Yet you somehow find your way into every thread to backup FT, and discredit GTT; even though you have zero firsthand experience with either product. You know Doug from the European forums, where he picks your collective brains regularly. I will give you credit however; as you obviously have more firsthand knowledge on hybrids than most here in the US. Your motivation here is quite obvious however, and that's a shame. You obviously have more to offer, other than trolling for FT. 


Mike Pauciullo said:


> I can't rent out my slicks since I run 13 inch rims but someone should speak to Doug about this. I think he will be all for it. Hopefully gonzo can bring other cars out also.


Mike, you and I both know what your problem is with Gonzo; as you and I have discussed it several years ago, when I too wasn't a fan of his. What happened is a shame, and was obviously a mistake on his part. An inexcusable mistake at that. **** happens, people learn from their mistakes, and move on.


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Yet you somehow find your way into every thread to backup FT, and discredit GTT; even though you have zero firsthand experience with either product. You know Doug from the European forums, where he picks your collective brains regularly. I will give you credit however; as you obviously have more firsthand knowledge on hybrids than most here in the US. Your motivation here is quite obvious however, and that's a shame. You obviously have more to offer, other than trolling for FT.
> 
> Mike, you and I both know what your problem is with Gonzo; as you and I have discussed it several years ago, when I too wasn't a fan of his. What happened is a shame, and was obviously a mistake on his part. An inexcusable mistake at that. **** happens, people learn from their mistakes, and move on.


I did move on but I will continue to dislike him. 
For what it is worth I remember when he first got these turbos he told me they are very similar as Doug's and got them from a Chinese company. I actually might s have that text message but I won't start that crap up again.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> I did move on but I will continue to dislike him.


I know the entire backstory; as you and I discussed it at length back in 10-11'? As such, I certainly don't expect you to just do a 180 here. What's done is done. :beer:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> I can't rent out my slicks since I run 13 inch rims but someone should speak to Doug about this. I think he will be all for it. Hopefully gonzo can bring other cars out also.


I was looking for some DRs to rent more than anything. I'm going to running Wilwoods that clear most 15s, 13s are definitely out of the question though 

I agree that it would be better with a few cars from each side showing up, I can already hear the excuses coming when my hooptie rolls up :laugh:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Cleaned up the fluff to keep it at least somewhat on point.


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

The thing that seems to be getting in the way are people's personal experiences. While that has a lot to do with the reputation of a company, personality differences cannot define whether one company is better than another, that is reasoning by "negating prerogative". The concept being, Company B is better than Company as because Company A is horrible. For one this ultimately does nothing to truly describe Company B, and secondly is a singularly biased commentary on the interaction between two individuals. The empirical value of this is zero since there in an infinity of potential affects in the circumstances. 

If you want to truly determine which is a better company, you must first separate the subjective from the definitive, customer service from product performance. Interestingly enough the majority of "car guys" aren't interested in a study as in depth as what I would suggest. Quickly it becomes overly intellectual and dry for those who are just wanting an answer, which should I get? This is when you start to get folks trying to form concise logical arguments based on absolutely conjecture! This typically degenerates into hurt egos, name calling, and general douchiness. Again, completely useless for anyone trying to make an informed decision. 

What I would like to see is each company donating/lending 10 or 15 turbochargers each to a third party who would test their flow characteristics and then plot the results on the same chart. Graphs can be deceiving as Gonzo said, but a direct comparison overlaid on one chart is pretty conclusive. After that each company would then donate two or three units that were built with utmost attention to specification and tolerances, golden units if you will, for failure testing. Each unit would be ran at a maximum RPM until failure while
proper cooling and lubrication were unerringly maintained, with the results compared. Lastly, a random sampling would be tested at the same testing point for 80% of average time to failure of the golden units. The numbers of failures(if any) recorded and published along with the other results. 

After the equipment has been tested a customer survey would be conducted. 30% of customers who had purchased units would be contacted and surveyed on 6 conditions(speed of response, speed of shipment, helpfulness, availability, whether the product was as described, cost). 

As far as testing the tune, it would be handled in the same manner, but I'm sure I've made my point. If someone wanted to settle the debate once and for all, this is the type of analysis that would decide the issue. Honestly, my suggestions don't actually come close to satisfying stipulating made for acceptable industry standard analysis. 

My 2 cents


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

ExtremeVR6 said:


> The thing that seems to be getting in the way are people's personal experiences. While that has a lot to do with the reputation of a company, personality differences cannot define whether one company is better than another, that is reasoning by "negating prerogative". The concept being, Company B is better than Company as because Company A is horrible. For one this ultimately does nothing to truly describe Company B, and secondly is a singularly biased commentary on the interaction between two individuals. The empirical value of this is zero since there in an infinity of potential affects in the circumstances.
> 
> If you want to truly determine which is a better company, you must first separate the subjective from the definitive, customer service from product performance. Interestingly enough the majority of "car guys" aren't interested in a study as in depth as what I would suggest. Quickly it becomes overly intellectual and dry for those who are just wanting an answer, which should I get? This is when you start to get folks trying to form concise logical arguments based on absolutely conjecture! This typically degenerates into hurt egos, name calling, and general douchiness. Again, completely useless for anyone trying to make an informed decision.
> 
> ...


Very well said! Sad part is one of these camps refuses to show up to race or do any type of recorded competition.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> Very well said! Sad part is one of these camps refuses to show up to race or do any type of recorded competition.


I would show up and race. I for sure don't have the experience of the more seasoned racers, like Jeff or Max. I would come out for a good time. Heck excluding this past waterfest (which I missed Sunday due to my father being in the hospital), Jeff, Max and I always ran on the auto-x together going back at least 3 years. Great bunch of guys and never a sour moment between us because of the turbo we choose to run. With that said graduate school has pretty much consumed my life so I don't have much time to make it to the track. 

To me, my frankenturbo does everything I wanted. It has good response, it's been reliable after all the torture I've put it through, and gives me a broad powerband to use the car for daily, auto-x, drag or HPDE. My goal for this car was about 350whp give or take. I also like the peace of mind of having a replacement turbo available to me for a minimal price and a 2 hour round trip to pick it up. Doug has been patient with me, as well as available to help me out even when I was in the wrong with a few situations. 

Tuning boost with the n75 was never an issue. It worked well. Never had waste gate issues or non of that nonsense. I just preferred a two stage MBC. Switching between boost on the fly and as simple as turning a knob was appealing to me. If we had boost/gear in maestro then that would change everything. 

I'm not here knocking gonzo or anyone. Simply giving my experience and reasons for running and sticking with my Frankenturbo. 

I kept avoiding this thread and posting because I know how all gonzo vs frankenturbo threads turn out.


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> I would show up and race. I for sure don't have the experience of the more seasoned racers, like Jeff or Max. I would come out for a good time. Heck excluding this past waterfest (which I missed Sunday due to my father being in the hospital), Jeff, Max and I always ran on the auto-x together going back at least 3 years. Great bunch of guys and never a sour moment between us because of the turbo we choose to run. With that said graduate school has pretty much consumed my life so I don't have much time to make it to the track.
> 
> To me, my frankenturbo does everything I wanted. It has good response, it's been reliable after all the torture I've put it through, and gives me a broad powerband to use the car for daily, auto-x, drag or HPDE. My goal for this car was about 350whp give or take. I also like the peace of mind of having a replacement turbo available to me for a minimal price and a 2 hour round trip to pick it up. Doug has been patient with me, as well as available to help me out even when I was in the wrong with a few situations.
> 
> ...


Steve, this IS the point of this thread. It's so you can give your experience. Your post is exactly what is supposed to be in here. Thank you eace:


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

:beer:


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## jonpwn (Aug 13, 2010)

Slimjimmn said:


> Gonzo turbos sold - maybe 30-40?
> Ft kits sold - thousands
> Better to get a comparison of products when they have sold an equal number of products and the years of research and testing and improvements and problems found have been worked on.
> According to thread posts gtt turbos have been sold for a little more than a year or so. Ft has been selling turbos since 2009. Wonder who copied who for what.
> Just sayin


this is something I didn't want to comment on because maybe I never noticed, but I always knew gonzo as the tuner (I entered the VW world in '10) but not for the GTT. I've seen FT around for a while and have thought of FT as the first major hybrid turbo company. so I'm confused as to the story behind who stole what and who came out with what first.

Can anybody clarify this? Gonzo or DMVDUB?


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

jonpwn said:


> this is something I didn't want to comment on because maybe I never noticed, but I always knew gonzo as the tuner (I entered the VW world in '10) but not for the GTT. I've seen FT around for a while and have thought of FT as the first major hybrid turbo company. so I'm confused as to the story behind who stole what and who came out with what first.
> 
> Can anybody clarify this? Gonzo or DMVDUB?


Simple really..

*First* FT came out with the F4T hybrid

*Then* We came out with the GTT hybrid

*Then* FT came out with the F21 hybrid

The F21 Is a slightly smaller GTT; which we came out with first. We never claimed to get into the hybrid game first. We're not mad about it; as it's the nature of the business. What is annoying however is when FT makes claims to the inverse.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

jonpwn said:


> this is something I didn't want to comment on because maybe I never noticed, but I always knew gonzo as the tuner (I entered the VW world in '10) but not for the GTT. I've seen FT around for a while and have thought of FT as the first major hybrid turbo company. so I'm confused as to the story behind who stole what and who came out with what first.
> 
> Can anybody clarify this? Gonzo or DMVDUB?


A couple notes,

First, if you have a question for Gonzo Tuning ask either Gonzo or Jeff. I may interject some information here and there, but from the point that I made this thread I have been trying to distance myself from them. Not because of anything negative, just because people got confused and could understand I was / am a product tester and was a dealer as a part of a business I already had started. I am not a customer service rep' for GTS. If I see something I know the answer to and it's taking a while to get answered I'll probably give some info on the subject. 

Second,
this is a very BIG one! 

Frankenturbo did not invent the hybrid K04/K03. They "borrowed" their design from Scroll Products, who uses genuine Borg parts and costs twice as much. On that note, the Europeans have been tinkering with hybrids for a very long time. If you do a little searching there's even a hybrid where someone took a .48 Trim T3 and combined it with a K04-001... needless to say that's a big failure. 

The subject of hybrid K04's and K03's can be a very sticky subject. I'll note the ONLY reason FT wasn't sued, is because there's no patents on a hybrid design. Essentially, if I go to my garage tonight and build a hybrid K04-023 that flows the same as a GT28RS and has a BB CHRA, is built with top of the line parts and I put it on the market anybody can come and take my design, send it to China and have a cheaper version made causing me to lose out. Feel free to contact Scroll Products if you'd like a good story about how this works.


----------



## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Damn. I just bought and bolted on an F23. I've tore the engine down to the crank and put rods and pistons because I never changed the timing belt. Around 95xxx miles it went south. I'm still under budget from what the stealership quoted an OEM repair and now have a lot more. It's taken some time doing it myself, but I hope it'll pay off. 

I went with FT because it's not a BT; lag, mucho power, and in need of many supporting mods I didn't want to spend more money for that I don't already have. It's not a ko4 either. If I can get more than 260-280 hp or tq at the wheels, I'll be tickled sh!tless. The prospect of a long powerband drew my attention in the beginning. I'm still about another month and a few weeks away from getting it completed due to my work schedule and barring catastrophic failure from my first rebuild with more than 2 cyl. I will post up results from this experience as I want to know more as well. 

I thought I did enough research to determine whom I chose wisely, but what I'm hearing is this: both Gonzo and FrankenTurbo are basically selling HarborFreight turbo kits. Is that a fair assumption? I have several HF tools and they are just that. Cheap Chinese imitations of a good brand and when they fail, toss it and go buy a real one because you've gotten accustomed to having it in the toolbox. 

I'm gonna continue with my F23 project as planned and rock it until it craps out. Maybe I can get another 90,000 miles out her. I've got a coworker with a 400hp MR2 and he tried to convince me to go bigger, but my tight wad ass wouldn't do it. 

I would like to see some real life numbers, though. Some from rollers and some from the strip. I wouldn't mind seeing what these little hybrids would pull in a mile, too. 

Keep it clean fellas as this topic is on many minds. Just in time for Christmas to get some things settled and deals made.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

I'd say 'Harbor Freight' turbos is a little harsh :laugh:


These turbos that both FT and GTS sell, are both produced to a fairly high standard. We've had very few failures (and we've sold hundreds of them; not 30-40 like was suggested by a certain poster), and FT has had great success as well. For how hard many of our collective users have pushed them; they tend to be very reliable indeed. 

We offer a 1 year hassle free warranty on all of our products, and should you have a failure out of warranty; we aren't going to rake you over the coals on a replacement. :beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Brake Weight said:


> *I've tore the engine down to the crank and put rods and pistons because I never changed the timing belt.* .


:facepalm: Shame Shame


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Twopnt016v said:


> :facepalm: Shame Shame


No doubt. I knew better.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Yet you somehow find your way into every thread to backup FT, and discredit GTT; even though you have zero firsthand experience with either product. You know Doug from the European forums, where he picks your collective brains regularly. I will give you credit however; as you obviously have more firsthand knowledge on hybrids than most here in the US. Your motivation here is quite obvious however, and that's a shame. You obviously have more to offer, other than trolling for FT.
> 
> Mike, you and I both know what your problem is with Gonzo; as you and I have discussed it several years ago, when I too wasn't a fan of his. What happened is a shame, and was obviously a mistake on his part. An inexcusable mistake at that. **** happens, people learn from their mistakes, and move on.



How about some Data, dyno's logs are posted............. Just a thought

Why do you seem to be happy to continually berate others,,,,, post your products Results... they should speak for themselves... which can only be a good thing, as when you say things you come across like a dick. I am not alone in not liking ANYTHING you will say because of how you behave and post (past and present)... 

Whether that's fare and realistic of "you" the actual person, and not the one behind the keyboard I dont know. You need to take this on board. You do yourself/products no good at all.

:screwy:


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

badger5 said:


> How about some Data, dyno's logs are posted............. Just a thought
> 
> Why do you seem to be happy to continually berate others,,,,, post your products Results... they should speak for themselves... which can only be a good thing, as when you say things you come across like a dick. I am not alone in not liking ANYTHING you will say because of how you behave and post (past and present)...
> 
> ...


Excuse me, Bill?

Perhaps I should I dig back, and quote your own posts? You aren't exactly Mother Teresa on these boards yourself, are you? 

I called an obvious troll. I haven't berated anyone. Shall we get on now, or are you going to continue to be a prat?


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Excuse me, Bill?
> 
> Perhaps I should I dig back, and quote your own posts? You aren't exactly Mother Teresa on these boards yourself, are you?
> 
> I called an obvious troll. I haven't berated anyone. Shall we get on now, or are you going to continue to be a prat?


opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

jettred3 said:


> opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


Yup


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## mk4321 (Nov 14, 2010)

I just recently bought my hybrid kit and have yet to install it...

What I can tell you is the childish behaviour on the internet played a partial role in my decision and I felt that 99% of the time it was the guys of Gonzo bashing their competitiors... As someone in a marketing position for a very large company I would discipline any of my employees for doing this. Your product should stand on its own merits with having to step on a competitor to get a leg up!

I also contacted both respective owners and felt I received a more personal and professional experience with FT.

I would have to agree with a previous sentiment that there needs to be some serious growing up and customer service changes at Gonzo.


1) This thread was an immature attempt to attack FT and it was evident from the first post.
2) Brag about your product don't bash a competitor
3) Don't talk down to those contacting you in regards to your product... We ask questions because we don't know the answer!
4) Talk to someone on the phone... Your emails and forum responses come across down right degrading and that is not going to convince me that you are smart, it only convinces me you're an ass and not going to receive any of my money!

You want an honest unbiased customer opinion... Here is one that just received his FT in the mail monday!:waveRemember you asked!)


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

mk4321 said:


> I just recently bought my hybrid kit and have yet to install it...
> 
> What I can tell you is the childish behaviour on the internet played a partial role in my decision and I felt that 99% of the time it was the guys of Gonzo bashing their competitiors... As someone in a marketing position for a very large company I would discipline any of my employees for doing this. Your product should stand on its own merits with having to step on a competitor to get a leg up!
> 
> ...


I think most of that was pretty accurate. What I know you were wrong about, is in bold above. This thread REALLY was started to give all the BS and bickering a place to go, other than peoples threads.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> This thread REALLY was started to give all the BS and bickering a place to go, other than peoples threads.


*THIS*


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> *THIS*


You started the thread


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> You started the thread


I know I did. I did So that people can argue here and not in other peoples threads. The destruction of peoples threads has gotten old. Somehow, the FT camp doesn't understand that this is a place for them to put up their numbers and tell why they are better... yet they don't.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

This thread was unneeded.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> This thread was unneeded.


I was asked to make this thread. Seeing that any thread I make gets trolled by the FT camp as well I understand why people asked me to do this.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Well people think we are involved with what you decide to post, so please tone it down.

Thanks.


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

I have no loyalties to FT or GT.

Considering I have had numerous emails with the OP and shared a lot of info with him, who by all accounts is a GT team player I find your comments a little out of place and hardly trolling for FT!

To be honest Jeff if you had dropped me an email before you started out on your k04 hybrid, tfsi, or k03 and asked what I thought I would have happily shared with you, same goes for FT.. 

The title of the thread was gt v ft the real scope.. It just feels like a gt based thread and not the non biased one i thought it might be


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

So is it possible to attach a GTTx (madmax ported) to FT (chinafold) w/ eurodyne, probably G2 500cc?

Or will my car immediately burst into flames

sub'd


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> I know I did. I did So that people can argue here and not in other peoples threads. The destruction of peoples threads has gotten old. Somehow, the FT camp doesn't understand that this is a place for them to put up their numbers and tell why they are better... yet they don't.


Anyone can search my username and see my numbers with a list of supporting mods. I don't think it needs to be posted again. Also frankenturbo dynos have been posted by other users who have your more typical setup in many platforms as well as being available on his website.

If this is where people are to post numbers and data where are the GTT stats? I don't think it's fair to keep saying that FT isn't coming into the post and partaking in it. 

Also I don't think it was "Team FT" that was trolling into people's threads. Certain Individuals ( I don't remember but it doesn't matter really) were upset with their FT and thought it to be great to belittle Doug's every post and try and rip him a new one. I'm not here fighting anyone's battles but why would you expect him to come into a thread titled GTT vs FT with the history of disrespectful responses towards him. 

Regardless in the end if someone wants to research both turbos they can contact the owners, Doug and Gonzo respectively and decide which turbo suites them better.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I think the thread started out wrong by title alone. If it were a thread not designated as a VS thread, I think I might have worked. Just a more neutral approach to all of these topics.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

warranty225cpe said:


> I think the thread started out wrong by title alone. If it were a thread not designated as a VS thread, I think I might have worked. Just a more neutral approach to all of these topics.


Agreed. If anything it would be great for gonzo to start his own thread when he gets results and post it independently. 

Obviously people will support what they want. If they have data from both parties they can make a decision on their own.


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Agreed. If anything it would be great for gonzo to start his own thread when he gets results and post it independently.
> 
> Obviously people will support what they want. If they have data from both parties they can make a decision on their own.


I agree with steve here. I do see the bias going on and with my own experience it seems gonzo has more to prove with the turbo (not the tuning as it seems). i.e. pics, dynos, videos, etc...


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> This thread was unneeded.


:thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Well people think we are involved with what you decide to post, so please tone it down.
> 
> Thanks.


:thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

spartiati said:


> Anyone can search my username and see my numbers with a list of supporting mods. I don't think it needs to be posted again. Also frankenturbo dynos have been posted by other users who have your more typical setup in many platforms as well as being available on his website.
> 
> If this is where people are to post numbers and data where are the GTT stats? I don't think it's fair to keep saying that FT isn't coming into the post and partaking in it.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Honestly, I'm not a fan of this exchange. I have nothing against FT, or their supporters; many of whom have been great assets to this forum, and the collective of information that is filed here. This is a tech forum; which should be reserved for just that very thing alone. 

I'm not here to 'call anyone out', or add to any of the squabbles. I simply state my opinion; which is truly the point of all of this, is it not? :wave:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> I think the thread started out wrong by title alone. If it were a thread not designated as a VS thread, I think I might have worked. Just a more neutral approach to all of these topics.


You know why this thread was started, and yes the name makes it come across wrong.


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## Weehe (Apr 2, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> I have no loyalties to FT or GT.
> 
> Considering I have had numerous emails with the OP and shared a lot of info with him, who by all accounts is a GT team player I find your comments a little out of place and hardly trolling for FT!
> 
> ...


This is very true. However, with the gonzo team spewing there **** here, it keeps it out (for the most part) of the real threads, so that's kind of a plus.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> You know why this thread was started, and yes the name makes it come across wrong.


Yes I do. I thought it was a good idea. I still do. You have to follow along and sift through some bullsh|t, but it gives people enough info to make a bit more of an informed decision. Other than the obvious trash in this thread, there are bits of info that is new to me. 

People that have added info to this thread have made it what it was intended to be. If someone has something of value to add, cool. If all you have to add is "this is SO childish", then you and your waste of a post is part of the problem. 

Sit back and grab some opcorn:

Or piss off.


----------



## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

I feel like we are all at the movies with all this opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Slimjimmn said:


> I feel like we are all at the movies with all this opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


Needs more of this :beer::beer::beer:


And maybe a little of this :heart:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Slimjimmn said:


> I feel like we are all at the movies with all this opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


This is my latest TeleNovela!:laugh: Now... *ON WITH THE TECH!*opcorn:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, first of all thanks DMVDUB for this thread :beer:, it is a great idea, I back it up, and keep it up:thumbup:!!! People were going to ruin my thread because of their ft vs gtt BS!!! at least here is a place to argue, but if you want to do it, do it the right way!!! post pics, results, dynos number, vids,...!!!




DMVDUB said:


> :sly:opcorn:
> 
> One... Literally ONE sentence that came from you was on topic. The rest was nonsense. I am being unbiased. *Ask the people with FT that I'm tuning. I could've pushed them into getting GTT turbos, I didn't.*
> 
> You never bring anything but drama. That's all you ever do and we all know it. :wave:


Well I got F21T and DMVDUB tuned it via Maestro with FT actuator, and IT IS TRUE DMVDUB never told me that FT are not good or FT actuator is not good, he sait FT actuator are not set properly and told me to contact Doug to set my preload to 10 psi and that's what I did, and I have thousands of private emails to back it up, he never told me to change to GTT, he was so honest from the beginning. So claiming he was unbiased is not true!!! I AM A FT USER AND THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE!!!


Now, concerning my F21T kit experience, till date it is great!!! I can start with Doug, he is a great seller, will help you and respond to you anytime anywhere anyhow even on holidays, once I asked him if he ever sleeps because he replied me anytime and we have 7 hours time difference!!! he always make sure I am ok, he does his best to satisfy his clients!!! and that's more than enough for me to chose him again if I go back in time... 

Here is an example of what Doug did to help me: I needed to contact USRT to get my GII 500cc injectors and Scott couldn't reply to me because he was attempting an Auto event, so Doug contact someone in USRT on the phone and got the injectors shipped to his place combined them and send them with the F21T, and he did the same for some goods I ordered from Dave @ ECS tuning and the most important he paid for them all and I paid them back to him!!! isn't that enough to appreciate his customer service??? So DOUG:beer::beer:


In addition, the F21T kit as product is well above k03 or k04-001 I had both on my car and I know F21t spool is so quick and fast, I never had any issue with the N75, Matt tune was so soft and the boost cusrve and power were smooth even though it was only on test files and not a final ones I KO'd lots of stg2+ mk4 and stg1+ mk5. The first day I tweaked the file and I got 30+psi without any problem LOL :laugh:... so this kit is reliable, Unfortunately I have some problem with my rebuild engine, since my Mechanic messed it up, but I sure when I am done again, I will get some great result and will post them here.

When I decide to buy FT there was F4t at that time, and then Doug told me that he managed to get a better bolt-on the F21T, so who came before F21T or GTT is not important!!! Both of you guys did not invent the powder!! In uk they were doing Hybrids well before you were born, so stop this crap of who did it first and try to help your client and community and promote your product instead of insulting each other!!! 

I have no experience with GT, I send them some email before going Maestro route and they did not revert quickly but they sent me some emails promising me they will reply ASAP, so I cannot tell anything about them, I wish them luck...

Now, I didn't know I was going to do my rods and that's why I bought F21T, if times goes back and I have to decide, I will go gt28 route, I think it is better than squeezing your turbo for more power!!!

Now, I am looking to get back in track with my car, I REALLY LOVE THE F21T WITH MATT TUNE!!! :laugh:

:beer::beer::beer:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

woodywoods86 said:


> So is it possible to attach a GTTx (madmax ported) to FT (chinafold) w/ eurodyne, probably G2 500cc?
> 
> Or will my car immediately burst into flames
> 
> sub'd


well buddy, I have the GII 500cc, but for F21T w/ eurodyne you need Genesis 550cc.. I am running mine with 4 bar FPR...


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

Just thought of this. has unitronic, apr, revo, ect anybody other than gonzo tuning made a tune for the gtt turbos?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Slimjimmn said:


> Just thought of this. has unitronic, apr, revo, ect anybody other than gonzo tuning made a tune for the gtt turbos?


that's a good question, what i heard that GTTs are achieving over 275+whp with gonzo tune, i don't know if other tuner have canned tune for it, but it will be interesting to know.
eace:


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Slimjimmn said:


> Just thought of this. has unitronic, apr, revo, ect anybody other than gonzo tuning made a tune for the gtt turbos?


Because we don't sell the turbo separately.


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Because we don't sell the turbo separately.


you sell the kits separately with no tune tho:sly:

It would be interesting to see someone with a GTT run a FT tune or apr or Uni tune and see how it goes (with supporting injectors and such)


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

We really haven't sold any without the tune thus far.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Slimjimmn said:


> you sell the kits separately with no tune tho:sly:
> 
> It would be interesting to see someone with a GTT run a FT tune or apr or Uni tune and see how it goes (with supporting injectors and such)


Listen to the guy who sells them instead of reading his site, lol


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Slimjimmn said:


> you sell the kits separately with no tune tho:sly:
> 
> It would be interesting to see someone with a GTT run a FT tune or apr or Uni tune and see how it goes (with supporting injectors and such)


Listen to the guy who sells them instead of reading his site, lol


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Slimjimmn said:


> you sell the kits separately with no tune tho:sly:
> 
> It would be interesting to see someone with a GTT run a FT tune or apr or Uni tune and see how it goes (with supporting injectors and such)


It's the genius of the GTT kit. It's a one stop shop. You get the Hardware and the software together and they are both designed together in house and on test vehicles. It's a very effective method and together they run great. There's no reason you'd want to go elsewhere for the tune (don't use me as an example, I just wanted something to tinker with that's why I learned Maestro). 

The FT is a Hardware setup without a perfect canned tune. The turbos are fine and if that's what you decide to buy that's your option. You just have to remember, the only way you're going to get the best performance is to buy and learn Maestro. My opinion on this would be for Doug to give his turbos to a tuner and have them make a solid canned tune for the hardware. 

I'm being unbiased and I can say at the moment (and until FT can get a solid canned tune) you're getting a much better deal with the GTT series. If FT had a solid canned tune for their hardware I would say the ONLY way to determine which is better would be to have all the lab testing and track testing mentioned before. 

They are similar products. The difference is one comes ready to go. The other needs to either be dialed in via Maestro, or use one of the very lacking canned tunes that are available. IF I were a FT customer I don't think I would buy one unless I had access to custom tuning. 

It's really up to the customer and what they want. You're going to get similar HP numbers, similar fitment and similar spool. It really just comes down to how much you want to deal with tuning. Do you want a kit that you can install in a day and that night be running it to its full potential or a kit that you need to find the perfect software match before you get the most out of it?


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Because we don't sell the turbo separately.


HI Gonzo,

may I ask why Sir? Let's say I wanna change from FT to GTTx and I have Maestro, won't you be able to sell me the Turbo alone??

thank you,


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> It's the genius of the GTT kit. It's a one stop shop. You get the Hardware and the software together and they are both designed together in house and on test vehicles. It's a very effective method and together they run great. There's no reason you'd want to go elsewhere for the tune (don't use me as an example, I just wanted something to tinker with that's why I learned Maestro).
> 
> The FT is a Hardware setup without a perfect canned tune. The turbos are fine and if that's what you decide to buy that's your option. You just have to remember, the only way you're going to get the best performance is to buy and learn Maestro. My opinion on this would be for Doug to give his turbos to a tuner and have them make a solid canned tune for the hardware.
> 
> ...


Well, having someone like you teaching me on Meastro and tuning my car!!??!! I would get any turbo I want!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

I get the idea of a canned tune but i'm sure in europe it would never work.

I just feel there are so many options out there. Large port, small port. Intercoolers, downpipes, exhausts, manifolds that it would be impossible for anyone to offer an off the shelf tune that would fit with every car. And as weve found time and time again that without a dyno you can not get accurate power graphs and taking the 0.8/maf reading as a measure of power isnt accurate. 

I accept though if you supply a complete package then you can offer a canned tune but i have yet to meet anyone that doesnt already have a modded part or their own mind on what to fit. They can be guided but rarely follow your advice...

The uk is a small island though so i know driving to a tuner isnt an issue unlike CA to NY . Thats a big difference i think


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> I get the idea of a canned tune but i'm sure in europe it would never work.
> 
> I just feel there are so many options out there. Large port, small port. Intercoolers, downpipes, exhausts, manifolds that it would be impossible for anyone to offer an off the shelf tune that would fit with every car. And as weve found time and time again that without a dyno you can not get accurate power graphs and taking the 0.8/maf reading as a measure of power isnt accurate.
> 
> ...


Man, there is a tuner in UK called Nick he work for Rtech, he had an AUM 2002 with BW k04-001 and rods with NOS and manage to do a 1/4 mile in ~4 second if I am not mistaken, check this out!!!

This guy maybe the best tuner in UK and I am wondering what he can do with a F21T!!! I am sure a lot of potential...


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

bloody Android!! duplicated!!!


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

With a complete parts build list...everything, and I mean everything. A seasoned tuner may be able to do a one time tune. Maybe. There are too many variables. W/M-what brand, what flow rate, what mixture, where is it injected? Fuel injectors-bar, octane, %ethanol? MAF? Compression? Exhaust? Etc...yada yada yada? 

I listed Motoza everything I did, what will do, what I will run. He sent me what he thought I'll need and told me it'll take 2-3 tries to get it right. There's no dyno within 2.5 hours of me so my entire 'tweaking' is gonna be from logging a few pulls and emailing him these logs. He'll give them a look and send me an updated file to upload. Biggest time consumer is gonna be the turn around from him. With a set of basic guidelines I can get in closer, but the fine details is on him. But, I'm the guy that is pushing the gas pedal and the guy watching, listening, and feeling anything. So if I can't accurately describe what is happening real time, he is in the dark on things not logged.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Beachbuggy said:


> I get the idea of a canned tune but i'm sure in europe it would never work.
> 
> I just feel there are so many options out there. Large port, small port. Intercoolers, downpipes, exhausts, manifolds that it would be impossible for anyone to offer an off the shelf tune that would fit with every car. And as weve found time and time again that without a dyno you can not get accurate power graphs and taking the 0.8/maf reading as a measure of power isnt accurate.
> 
> ...


We do, in fact custom taylor our GTT tunes to customers specific hardware needs if necessary. We also regularly 'tweak' our customers tunes after the initial sale as well. 

I might add that these services are offered for 'gratis'; provided the customer hasn't made any radical hardware changes such as injectors, cams, or throttle body. If the customer has altered any of these items, there is a nominal fee, but we certainly don't rake them over the coals, so to speak.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

DMVDUB said:


> The FT is a Hardware setup without a *perfect* canned tune. *[emphasis added]*












550cc F21T base file:




























Unitronic 

440cc Stage 2+ F21T file
















































550cc F21T file











I'm not going to claim that the above test data demonstrate _perfection_. But they do demonstrate that our products are thoroughly tested and proven. So here's the "REAL scoop" of this thread: FrankenTurbo products are backed by industry-leading warranty coverage & customer service, plus the best tuning companies out there.

Has Gonzo Tuning substantiated their claims that they make their products in the same factories we use: *NO*
Has Gonzo Tuning documented any of their power claims: *NO*
Has Gonzo Tuning produced any test data for their turbochargers: *NO*
Has Gonzo Tuning offered a single data log to show their software differs from the Unitronic/APR/GIAC maps they've been accused of counterfeiting: *NO*


The "Gonzo GTTx" or whatever he wants to call it is a shallow copy of our own products. That's my claim. DMVDUB, JohhnyLlama, gdoggmoney and the rest of you are more than welcome to produce documentation that proves otherwise.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Has Gonzo Tuning offered a single data log to show their software differs from the Unitronic/APR/GIAC maps they've been accused of counterfeiting: *NO*


All I know is my car runs 100% better with a Gonzo tune then it did with the Uni tune Gonzo supposedly stole. Explain to me why it runs so much better with Gonzo than with Uni? Explain why he can make their file so much better but they can't? Explain to me why you told me Uni does a wonderful job of controlling boost via the N75 and it didn't? Explain why Gonzo was able to control the boost perfectly with the n75?


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Who offers a completely bolt on, no frills, no need to tinker with anything, consistent and reliable hybrid turbo kit? *Gonzo Tuning
*Who offers the most advanced and unmatched performance software with advanced custom code features not found elsewhere? *Gonzo Tuning*
Who holds the record highest HP stock turbo frame in the United States? *Gonzo Tuning*

We don't feel the need to share endless and meaningless logs when we have actual dyno graphs and 1/4 results to back up our claims. 

This dyno pull took place right around FrankenTurbo's backyard (FFE Racing):




























400whp soon :vampire:










Also, it seems that everyone forgets that hybrid turbocharger kits are not Gonzo Tuning's only specialty. 
We also specialize in advanced performance software for stock cars, cars with hybrid turbos (yes we even offer tunes for FrankenTurbos), and Big Turbo cars.
We have the 1.8T community *completely* covered.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Well, I'm not impressed by anything you've shown Doug. You asked Gonzo for a Dyno, he gave you a Dyno. You want 1/4 mile times, he's got those. Sorry, but ALL of those tunes you're touting as Good, Great or whatever...well Suck. The Eurodyne, (and I use Eurodyne) F21 file is Junk. It's absolutely the worst base file ever. The rest of the files you speak of ALL require a MBC for a STOCK FRAME TURBO, sans maybe one. 

I've admitted to being able to tune your turbos, and I can do it quite well. I've never said a bad thing to any of your customers that I've tuned about the turbos. The ONLY reason I won't release how I do it and do it reliably, is because you're disrespectful to me, you've lied to me, you've lied about me, you make up elaborate stories about me, shall I continue to go on about why I just don't like you? 

Doug, why don't you race the GTT? 

This is how MEN settle these battles. They get on the track and race.

Why can't you produce a single dyno that can compare to the GTT (a K03 framed hybrid) even from your F23?

You have the Franken TT with a stroked motor, w/m, cams, SEM manifold, etc. etc. and the GTT made more power on the same dyno that you use, with no other mods than E85. 

Stop, being a pansy. I'm sure 4cefed4 would race you. Why don't you just man the fùck up and run him? 

YOU copied the GTT, it was out before the the F21 and you know it. I know how your business model woks from speaking with many of the people YOU literally stole from. 

I promised to not be biased, but you run your mouth and you're getting called out! eace:opcorn:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

:laugh:opcorn:


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Lol

Annnnnd it starts again. Doug was brave enough to come in like you requested and you go kick off like child again. 

Why Gonzo, the company owner, hasn't throttled the kids that tarnish his name I do not know. 

Thank **** we have adults with good moral behaviour on this side of the pond


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

superkarl said:


> Lol
> 
> Annnnnd it starts again. Doug was brave enough to come in like you requested and you go kick off like child again.
> 
> ...


How exactly did anyone "kick off" like a child? :screwy::facepalm:

He challenged what's been said and was proven wrong.

I suggested what we've all been suggesting, a RACE. 

If he's not man enough to bring a car to race then he's not "brave". 

Doug didn't prove anything. All he does is give graphs that anyone can make. How do we know they're genuine? I can make pretty graph on Excel too. 

Stevebilt set up a stock framed turbo shootout at H2O and there wasn't a single FT that showed their face.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

With a burnt out clutch and the worst 60' time of my life I was still able to put up a better time and trap with the GTT kit than anything I've seen from the FT side. I will be at all the 2014 events with a better prepared car for the 1/4, I welcome anyone to join me...  opcorn:


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

4ceFed4 said:


> With a burnt out clutch and the worst 60' time of my life I was still able to put up a better time and trap with the GTT kit than anything I've seen from the FT side. I will be at all the 2014 events with a better prepared car for the 1/4, I welcome anyone to join me...  opcorn:


Sandbagging are you?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Here are some dyno's along the way. They are on the same exact dyno so this is as close to a comparison as we are going to get. Same HP as Jeff's car. 


Here is one on the stock throttle body, stock intake manifold, stock cams, stock TT exhaust manifold with just water meth @ 23psi. 
<a href="http://s326.photobucket.com/user/spartiati86/media/StockTB_zpsa6ec8719.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k420/spartiati86/StockTB_zpsa6ec8719.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo StockTB_zpsa6ec8719.jpg"/></a>


Here is my latest dyno with 70mm TB intake cam and custom intake manifold and larger JBS manifold @ 15psi.
<a href="http://s326.photobucket.com/user/spartiati86/media/Latest15PSI_zps60bbcf22.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k420/spartiati86/Latest15PSI_zps60bbcf22.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Latest15PSI_zps60bbcf22.jpg"/></a>


Here is the same as above @ 23PSI.
<a href="http://s326.photobucket.com/user/spartiati86/media/LatestHP_zpse49a7500.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k420/spartiati86/LatestHP_zpse49a7500.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo LatestHP_zpse49a7500.jpg"/></a>

Best 1/4 mile run for me was a 13.49 @110mph. Hurricane Sandy decided to turn my house into a swimming pool last year so I lost many important documents and my laptop that had my 1/4 mile slips and many track day videos. The only remnant of the 1/4 mile runs were from this video of my cousin and I at Englishtown. Ran a 13.6 @109 mph with bald Goodyear tires cutting a 2.5" 60'. 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=664817703094&l=8067218601134744612


And to clarify the HP numbers on Jeff's car is on e85 vs mine on 93 octane. That can certainly account for a significant difference as many already know. They are *BOTH* comparable turbo's capable of bending stock rods, making for a fun daily driver, weekend warrior, or AUTO-X cone slayer. People will enjoy either turbo they decide to go with.

Data is out there and readily available from Frankenturbo and dyno's associated with different platforms. Jeff's and mine are the most comparable (from the same dyno), but even between our setups there is quite a bit of difference to truly come to a conclusion. Best thing to do is for Jeff and I to get together at FFE on the same day and both of us run our cars on 93 octane and then e85 (even though there is no e85 anywhere remotely close to me). 

DMVDUB I gotta say you gotta chill out a little. I'm sure Doug reluctantly came in here and posted his info and hoped not to get a response like yours. It's for Gonzo and Doug to hash out between the two of them. This thread was about *UNBIASED* feedback. Even after a race people would call BS or its not fair, blah blah blah... There are too many variables to say X is better than Y. Driver experience is always a significant variable when coming to any type of track time. This is one of those topics people will *NEVER* see eye to eye on.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

I agree somewhat spartiati but you shouldn't turn a blind eye to Doug alleging that Gonzo steals software and such. You know as well as I do that Doug has seen Dynos from a gtt. So Doug really shouldn't come here and propagate rumors and lie and expect no one to say anything. He knows people only get snip-its of info so he knows some people will walk away thinking Gonzo steals software and there are no dyno's or data which are all false. If Doug wanted to be a better man he would have just posted the graphs and not tried to spew bs on the sly.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> DMVDUB I gotta say you gotta chill out a little. I'm sure Doug reluctantly came in here and posted his info and hoped not to get a response like yours. It's for Gonzo and Doug to hash out between the two of them. This thread was about *UNBIASED* feedback. Even after a race people would call BS or its not fair, blah blah blah... There are too many variables to say X is better than Y. Driver experience is always a significant variable when coming to any type of track time. This is one of those topics people will *NEVER* see eye to eye on.


True. 

I just really hate Doug as a person. He decided to bring my name, Gdoggmoney, and whomever else's name into it. He also spouted blatant lies.

Would you like me to post the emails from Scott? I'm sure you don't... (not you Steve, I'm speaking to Doug)

As for the turbos I'm unbiased. They are made in the same plant and perform similarly. I just really can't stand Doug. He's a liar and I don't have an ounce of respect for liars. He made all sorts of promises to me, broke them then lies about me... I don't want to be caught at a show or event where he's present because I'd end up in jail.

Steve, I have the utmost respect for you. As is I'm friends with Mike P. who can't stand Gonzo, and Tom. Just because Of my personal experience with Doug I don't want you to think any of it is an attack towards you.eace:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I'm not turning a blind eye. I don't speak about things of which I don't know the full details. 

I respect everyone on the forum and always stay neutral in my opinions. Since you (DMVDUB) have a personal issue with Doug, I feel it should be Gonzo then that starts a thread like this. You come into this already biased (which is fine, because personal opinions are your own). However when we want to start critically discussing facts and data and so on, and then you let your bias get in the way, it defeats the original purpose of this thread.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

spartiati said:


> I'm not turning a blind eye. I don't speak about things of which I don't know the full details.
> 
> I respect everyone on the forum and always stay neutral in my opinions. Since you (DMVDUB) have a personal issue with Doug, I feel it should be Gonzo then that starts a thread like this. You come into this already biased (which is fine, because personal opinions are your own). However when we want to start critically discussing facts and data and so on, and then you let your bias get in the way, it defeats the original purpose of this thread.


I don't participate in mudslinging. Time and time again Doug has actively and openly participated in slander.

I do not condone this thread. I only replied, because of Doug's baseless accusations. Neither will i start one. That's childish.


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

spartiati said:


> I'm not turning a blind eye. I don't speak about things of which I don't know the full details.
> 
> I respect everyone on the forum and always stay neutral in my opinions. Since you (DMVDUB) have a personal issue with Doug, I feel it should be Gonzo then that starts a thread like this. You come into this already biased (which is fine, because personal opinions are your own). However when we want to start critically discussing facts and data and so on, and then you let your bias get in the way, it defeats the original purpose of this thread.


:thumbup: opcorn:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I don't participate in mudslinging. Time and time again Doug has actively and openly participated in slander.
> 
> I do not condone this thread. I only replied, because of Doug's baseless accusations. Neither will i start one. That's childish.


You may not directly participate in the mudslinging, however when Gonzo supporters berate, chastise and "call out" Frankenturbo in a thread titled Gonzo vs FT, that's almost a direct representation of Gonzo (you as a representative of the company as a whole) on Frankentubo to everyone else reading in. 

Not everyone knows who is or isn't officially representative of Gonzo, but think of reading this thread in retrospect and the potential views people may make based on individuals responses within the thread.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

If an account on here does not have a username with a "@GonzoTuning" suffix, they do not work for Gonzo Tuning.

I cannot control what other users post or think regarding anything on here. Its unfair to blame me for what other users unrelated to our company post.

Jeff can vouch on how strict I am on what he can and can't post while representing Gonzo Tuning.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

Steve,

That's awesome that you saw a 50whp gain with the addition of those mods. I have the same stuff going into my motor this off season, and if I can pick up an additional 30 I'll be thrilled. I like your idea of hitting the same dyno on the same day, I have 10 gallons of 104 laying around if you want to do a 3 fuel comparison :thumbup:

I have similar feelings towards Doug as DMVDUB, but I have absolutely nothing against his hardware or people who choose to use it. As I've said in the past, I'm all for the advancement of this platform and anything that helps improve the performance:dollar ratio of the status quo.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> If an account on here does not have a username with a "@GonzoTuning" suffix, they do not work for Gonzo Tuning.
> 
> I cannot control what other users post or think regarding anything on here. Its unfair to blame me for what other users unrelated to our company post.
> 
> Jeff can vouch on how strict I am on what he can and can't post while representing Gonzo Tuning.


Understood. No one has control over what others post. 

However

The fact that you are not addressing the issue and allowing this type of behavior to continue does *indirectly* reflect on Gonzo Tuning. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Understood. No one has control over what others post.
> 
> However
> 
> The fact that you are not addressing the issue and allowing this type of behavior to continue does *indirectly* reflect on Gonzo Tuning. That's all I'm saying.


Let me politely link you to the second page of this thread: Click

I've done all the best I can.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

4ceFed4 said:


> Steve,
> 
> That's awesome that you saw a 50whp gain with the addition of those mods. I have the same stuff going into my motor this off season, and if I can pick up an additional 30 I'll be thrilled. I like your idea of hitting the same dyno on the same day, I have 10 gallons of 104 laying around if you want to do a 3 fuel comparison :thumbup:
> 
> I have similar feelings towards Doug as DMVDUB, but I have absolutely nothing against his hardware or people who choose to use it. As I've said in the past, I'm all for the advancement of this platform and anything that helps improve the performance:dollar ratio of the status quo.


For sure Jeff. I would love that. For me my VW has been and always will be my hobby and something I enjoy doing. If someone shares the same hobby then regardless of the hardware they choose to run or companies they decide to support I'll always enjoy tinkering and toying around. If you and Max need a hand lmk. I'll be glad to come wrench away with you guys. 

My whole thing is just this FT vs Gonzo is old. It's something many will never agree on, however it should just be left up to the end user to decide. VWVortex does not have to come up with a verdict in regards to who is better ... 

Frankenturbo has posted their facts and have many threads in many platforms in regards to the typical performance one can expect. 
Gonzo should do the same exclusively in regards to the GTT. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Let me politely link you to the second page of this thread: Click
> 
> I've done all the best I can.


I overlooked that. Regardless, if you wanted to put an end to this you could simply ask a moderator to clean the thread up and keep the slandering to a minimum. At that point I would say you have done everything you could have.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

spartiati said:


> I overlooked that. Regardless, if you wanted to put an end to this you could simply ask a moderator to clean the thread up and keep the slandering to a minimum. At that point I would say you have done everything you could have.


I have talked to Groggory about it. Trust me I have done all I can.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

spartiati said:


> Understood. No one has control over what others post.
> 
> However
> 
> The fact that you are not addressing the issue and allowing this type of behavior to continue does *indirectly* reflect on Gonzo Tuning. That's all I'm saying.


You do realize when Doug runs around in various threads slandering Gonzo, spreading rumors, and engaging in childish like behavior it does *directly* reflect on Frankenturbo? Maybe someone should tell him that and explain it makes him and his business look bad. I've seen multiple threads where users say they will not buy FT after seeing how he acts on threads. Just food for thought....


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

spartiati said:


> I overlooked that. Regardless, if you wanted to put an end to this you could simply ask a moderator to clean the thread up and keep the slandering to a minimum. At that point I would say you have done everything you could have.


I have asked the people who are participating in this thread to keep it clean time and again.

I remove posts that I deem are unfit for the forum or are just clutter. However, I try my best not to remove posts that are controversial because that causes even more problems when people think they are being censored. My opinion would be different if this thread were started by a forum sponsor.

Gonzo's statement about not being able to control people who don't work for his company is an excellent statement. He has no right to tell them what to do, what rooftop to yell from, or what to say. All those people have to do is stay under the rules of the forum so that I don't come in with the delete or punishment stick.

Personally, I think this thread has pretty much run its course. People from both sides have said both positive and negative things about both companies and products. People have made statements about the origins of both companies, none of which has been validated (or IMO matters). People from both sides have slung mud regarding the other side being mud slingers.

The party lines of the Gonzo party and the Frankenturbo party have been drawn and I've come to accept that it's going to be a feud for a long time to come.

Anywho...just my $0.02.

Keep the slandering to a minimum.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Thanks Groggory.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

spartiati said:


> For me my VW has been and always will be my hobby and something I enjoy doing. If someone shares the same hobby then regardless of the hardware they choose to run or companies they decide to support I'll always enjoy tinkering and toying around.


:thumbup::thumbup: Agreed

Steve & Jeff - I'm down for the dyno day shootout when you guys head down that way.


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> If an account on here does not have a username with a "@GonzoTuning" suffix, they do not work for Gonzo Tuning.
> 
> I cannot control what other users post or think regarding anything on here. Its unfair to blame me for what other users unrelated to our company post.
> 
> Jeff can vouch on how strict I am on what he can and can't post while representing Gonzo Tuning.


This...

We actively discourage our supporters from inciting conflict on here, but at the end of the day we have no control over it. Gonzo DOES have strict limitations as to what I can post on here as well. :beer:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

DougLoBue said:


> :thumbup::thumbup: Agreed
> 
> Steve & Jeff - I'm down for the dyno day shootout when you guys head down that way.


I got a NOS Sneaky Pete kit hidden beneath the passenger seat I don't have. You fools are done for! :laugh:eace:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, I am a FT user and all the people helping me are GT users...

I think this thread is a great idea, because we are sick of ppl screwing our build threads, who wanna say any crap about FT or GT, here you got a thread!!! :laugh: Just leave us alone!!!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Well, I am a FT user and all the people helping me are GT users...
> 
> I think this thread is a great idea, because we are sick of ppl screwing our build threads, who wanna say any crap about FT or GT, here you got a thread!!! :laugh: Just leave us alone!!!


As you know, I have no issue with the product. My issue is with the seller. Therefore I'm more than happy to help any Frankenturbo user get the most out of their turbo without rigging over boost controls, MBC instead of N75 or whatever laziness there's been on that level. 

One thing I really do wonder about (and this is something you know Fouad) is why people are still dealing with all the MBC boost control, Overboost setups and so on. Tuning it to run properly can be done, I can do it and Steve aka Spartiati can do it. I'm not sure why I was attacked a while ago for saying I wouldn't share how it's done, she you could just ask Spartiati? He's very good with Maestro and I'm sure he could do a write up on properly tuning them if he wished to do so. Sure it would cut into my business, but I also offer a free database on the same site that I sell my time to tune your car properly and perfectly (not restricted to any type of turbo, fuel or anything else).

I will say I prefer tuning the F21 over the F23 any day. People can say what they want, but we've run into some very strange boost issues with them. I'm not sure if it's because of the manifold these users are using, the intake setup they use or what... I'd really like to know why the F21 at high boost doesn't stay smooth (and damned it to hell, I'm not saying this to make the turbo sound bad! I'm saying it because I really would like to know since it's made tuning a few quite the pain in the asš). With the F21 and GTT they both tune similarly and the boost curve is nice and smooth even at top end. On the other hand I'll have a F23 to work with and over 23-25psi it will begin to surge or fluctuate (not comp surge). We will end up getting say 26psi and after 5000 rpm it begins to go back and forth between 26 and 20 (sometimes 18)psi until redline. It takes a lot more work setting the boost profile to remedy this and I'd really like to know what causes this so next time I tune a F23 I can tell them not to use (X) part because it's the source of the surge... 

I'm not being biased here, I'd just like to know the cause. I have no issue whatsoever with the products. The seller is my issue, so if I bring up something I have an issue with that's regarding the hardware it's not to make an accusation about the hardware. It's to make sure I'm giving my customer the best file possible. This who are part of this community that are using my services can attest to this. I don't push them on a certain product or shame them for what they choose. Once again, that can be attested to as well. 

There's one thing that I would like to note. When the whole actuator issue was being voiced Doug said the Forge unit was sub par and essentially crap. I as well as most other people would agree that a Forge actuator on any Hybrid turbo would be a great upgrade. My point in saying this is, I have correspondence from FT saying that the Forge unit should be used in lieu of the stoic actuator. This is once again one of those things that makes me have a strong dislike for the human part of FT. They claim one thing and then go back to claim another. They blatantly lie about users on the forum, claim theft by companies when in fact that's how they came to be. Doug knows who I am, knows I don't work for GTS, knows Gdoggmoney has no affiliation, knows 4cefed4 is just a customer, and so on with the usernames. People need to stick to the facts about the products. I'm guilty of breaking into the personal level, yet so is Doug. Whenever anything is brought to the attention of the forum that doesn't paint FT in a bright shining light, they claim that the person posting is a "ghost" account, or a paid śhit talker (neither of which are EVER the case). 



Doug, why won't you man up and race? 

This is what the big boys do. If I go to the track and run my mouth about another car we don't show each other graphs and talk about how the metal is of a certain quality... we race. 

There's more than one GTT user out here willing to race you, so you've been called out. It's your time to man up. The graphs and talk has gotten old. The slander has gotten old. You know you wouldn't run your mouth to my face Doug, but you've done it here. 

You've officially been called out, what's your response?


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

Your personal issues have nothing to do with us... That is what is getting so tiresome, played out, repetitive, redundant, etc. that crap needs to be taking elsewhere. Your beef with those guys has been absolutely freaking clear, and I haven't heard anyone continue to complain about it, debate it, or even continue discussing it with you. 

Please, take your issues OFFLINE with Doug or whomever else hurt your feelings. Deal with them personal and or directly. Or do what most mature professional adults do, maintain a separation from them who you cannot deal with. If you know your dander will get up at the mention of a particular individual or group, stay away from places where you know you will be incited. 

Otherwise, you only make yourself look worse with all of this sophomoric, butt-hurt indulgent blithering your doing! Your business? Please take this strictly as a professional critique, but you would be one of the very last people I would be interested in doing business with at the moment, and possibly would miss out on what might be some inspired and talented work. For no other reason than how fervently you continued to go after these people you don't like. I'm sorry dude, but I get the feeling that there are maybe one or two people who are actually causing all of this notice about Gonzo vs Frankenturbo, and I would seriously expect that both of them would appreciate if you and the other person would just stop. The ultimate result of ongoing bickering like this in a public forum is a big-ole black eye on both of them. No one wins an internet argument!


----------



## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

ExtremeVR6 said:


> Your personal issues have nothing to do with us... That is what is getting so tiresome, played out, repetitive, redundant, etc. that crap needs to be taking elsewhere. Your beef with those guys has been absolutely freaking clear, and I haven't heard anyone continue to complain about it, debate it, or even continue discussing it with you.
> 
> Please, take your issues OFFLINE with Doug or whomever else hurt your feelings. Deal with them personal and or directly. Or do what most mature professional adults do, maintain a separation from them who you cannot deal with. If you know your dander will get up at the mention of a particular individual or group, stay away from places where you know you will be incited.
> 
> Otherwise, you only make yourself look worse with all of this sophomoric, butt-hurt indulgent blithering your doing! Your business? Please take this strictly as a professional critique, but you would be one of the very last people I would be interested in doing business with at the moment, and possibly would miss out on what might be some inspired and talented work. For no other reason than how fervently you continued to go after these people you don't like. I'm sorry dude, but I get the feeling that there are maybe one or two people who are actually causing all of this notice about Gonzo vs Frankenturbo, and I would seriously expect that both of them would appreciate if you and the other person would just stop. The ultimate result of ongoing bickering like this in a public forum is a big-ole black eye on both of them. No one wins an internet argument!


:thumbup:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

DMVDUB said:


> As you know, I have no issue with the product. My issue is with the seller. Therefore I'm more than happy to help any Frankenturbo user get the most out of their turbo without rigging over boost controls, MBC instead of N75 or whatever laziness there's been on that level.
> 
> One thing I really do wonder about (and this is something you know Fouad) is why people are still dealing with all the MBC boost control, Overboost setups and so on. Tuning it to run properly can be done, I can do it and Steve aka Spartiati can do it. I'm not sure why I was attacked a while ago for saying I wouldn't share how it's done, she you could just ask Spartiati? He's very good with Maestro and I'm sure he could do a write up on properly tuning them if he wished to do so. Sure it would cut into my business, but I also offer a free database on the same site that I sell my time to tune your car properly and perfectly (not restricted to any type of turbo, fuel or anything else).


:thumbup:
Well I know very well that you are helping FT users and you are separating your personal problem with Doug from his client and that's well appreciated and symbol of maturity.

Frankly, I either don't know why people still using MBC with their F21T, I still remember the second revision file you sent me the boost curve was so smooth even better than stock and that was without MBC only N75. I don't know why Spartiati don't do a write up on that, but what I can say is that the F21T can be really tuned without MBC, all you need a skilled and talented tuner... :beer:



ExtremeVR6 said:


> No one wins an internet argument!


that's what keep debate forums alive!!! and that's why the existed from the first place!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

ExtremeVR6 said:


> Your personal issues have nothing to do with us... That is what is getting so tiresome, played out, repetitive, redundant, etc. that crap needs to be taking elsewhere. Your beef with those guys has been absolutely freaking clear, and I haven't heard anyone continue to complain about it, debate it, or even continue discussing it with you.
> 
> Please, take your issues OFFLINE with Doug or whomever else hurt your feelings. Deal with them personal and or directly. Or do what most mature professional adults do, maintain a separation from them who you cannot deal with. If you know your dander will get up at the mention of a particular individual or group, stay away from places where you know you will be incited.
> 
> Otherwise, you only make yourself look worse with all of this sophomoric, butt-hurt indulgent blithering your doing! Your business? Please take this strictly as a professional critique, but you would be one of the very last people I would be interested in doing business with at the moment, and possibly would miss out on what might be some inspired and talented work. For no other reason than how fervently you continued to go after these people you don't like. I'm sorry dude, but I get the feeling that there are maybe one or two people who are actually causing all of this notice about Gonzo vs Frankenturbo, and I would seriously expect that both of them would appreciate if you and the other person would just stop. The ultimate result of ongoing bickering like this in a public forum is a big-ole black eye on both of them. No one wins an internet argument!


I'm guessing your reading comprehension wasn't one of your highest points in school. The ENTIRE post was about being done with arguing about Doug on here about personal matters and strictly just calling him out to put his turbo vs Gonzo's turbo in a RACE!

This is the end of that post, putting my personal feelings aside and doing what many people have requested.

*"Doug, why won't you man up and race? 

This is what the big boys do. If I go to the track and run my mouth about another car we don't show each other graphs and talk about how the metal is of a certain quality... we race. 

There's more than one GTT user out here willing to race you, so you've been called out. It's your time to man up. The graphs and talk has gotten old. The slander has gotten old. You know you wouldn't run your mouth to my face Doug, but you've done it here. 

You've officially been called out, what's your response?"*

Milke P. from Stevebilt put up the money for a stock turbo size tournament last season in hopes to have this debate ended. But, it didn't seem to work out. With all of the "thousands" of FT's out there not a one entered. Doug could've entered his FrankenTT which has many more upgrades than 4cefed4's car, but he didn't.

Oh, and since your comprehension seems to be nil... here's another quote from my post,

*"People need to stick to the facts about the products. I'm guilty of breaking into the personal level, yet so is Doug. Whenever anything is brought to the attention of the forum that doesn't paint FT in a bright shining light, they claim that the person posting is a "ghost" account, or a paid śhit talker (neither of which are EVER the case). "*


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

I wasn't talking about being big boys, I was talking about being men. The process of racing proves nothing other than that the conditions surrounding him and his vehicle, (including his skill, weight and about a hundred other additional variables) allowed him/her to maneuver the vehicle through the prescribed course from start to finish faster than another. There are so many variables at play that nothing factual can be determined about any one of those elements, such as the turbocharger or the tune. The one and only thing it does is potentially settle a grudge match, which is purely subjective. 

While you profess that your post was an attempt to address the actual issue and not anything personal, it was riddled with emotive descriptions, opinions, and comments. It very clearly was not a simple declaration of 'I have a problem with this person, but let's talk about this other topic that is more to the point'. 

In my first post in this thread I outlined a very methodical process to compare the quality and performance of the hardware and software, and to compare the quality of the two companies. Doing those comparisons would provide a solid answer for everyone else interested, not just settling the inner demons of one person. 

Truth be told, would a race change the fact that you loath this person? 

I'm done with this, as it's obvious that it'll not go anywhere further than more pages of bickering and interweb flexing... Your challenge of my reading comprehension with such dripping condescension is only an attempt to make yourself seem better in some perspective by putting me down. I don't any approval or accolades from a host of people that I've never met, and most likely never will meet, to feel better about myself.

Thanks.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

ExtremeVR6 said:


> I wasn't talking about being big boys, I was talking about being men. *The process of racing proves nothing other than that the conditions surrounding him and his vehicle, (including his skill, weight and about a hundred other additional variables) allowed him/her to maneuver the vehicle through the prescribed course from start to finish faster than another. There are so many variables at play that nothing factual can be determined about any one of those elements, such as the turbocharger or the tune. The one and only thing it does is potentially settle a grudge match, which is purely subjective. *
> Thanks.


:

Nothing will change my feelings for the person and I myself said as long as I'm not getting shït talked by someone I won't be doing either. 

Besides that... 

The point is people WANT TO SEE A RACE! 

You say it proves nothing but that's bullshít. Why do people race then? 

No matter what it does show a winner to all the fighting. 

You can make all the excuses you want, but racing is how you settle these matters. The whole point is who can build a better car around the turbo from each camp. They don't need to be similar, they can be extremely different. The Franken-TT with Thousands of dollars worth of mods should be able to beat a GTI with a fraction of that price tag. 

I get people asking all the time why it's not taken to the strip. This is a automotive and motorsport community. Ever since I've been into this starting with dirt bikes as a kid and so on, people settle matters at the track. You just sound like someone making excuses.

You sound like the guy that hypes up his car and then when he's called out he claims he's not tuned, doesn't have the right tires with him, the moon is in it he wrong phase, you've got your period... whatever. 

Men settle it at the track. The opportunity has been laid out several times and there's always an excuse.

The real question is, Why is FT so afraid to race GTS? 

If they win then they can boast all about it... They claim to be superior, so prove it. You don't prove it with excel graphs. You prove it with the faster car. People are buying these things to go faster, I'm sure people would sway their decision depending on how a race turns out and what exactly was run in each car to produce what result. Claiming the experience or lack thereof card is weak. Race several cars with each setup of varying degrees and different platforms. It's not that hard to figure out.

So far the GTT is the highest HP Hybrid of the two companies, and the fastest / quickest. 

You'd think that you wouldn't want your competitor to be able to advertise something like that... 

Unitronic races to prove their SW, APR does the same, GIAC, etc. So saying racing proves nothing is dumb.


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

I wonder if Doug has been reading this all along and thinking :shakehead:


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## jpserra (Jul 16, 2013)

wish this guy dmvdub would shut the **** up already


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

DMVDUB said:


> So far the GTT is the highest HP Hybrid of the two companies, and the fastest / quickest.
> 
> You'd think that you wouldn't want your competitor to be able to advertise something like that...


Spartiati has put down better times with his FT car than I have put down in my GTT car and edges me out by a few tenths in the WHP battle as well. 

I admittedly don't follow drag racing at all, but I'd be shocked if there aren't any other FT users out there that haven't beat my 13.6 @ 107. To be fair to myself, my best time is from a sample of one trip to the track, and it just happened to be in the upper 90s that day with my car on bad tires with a bad clutch. Next year it is on me to make it out on some days with normal weather and a better prepared car, otherwise my excuses are just that. Going into 2014 I'm going to consider anything worse than mid 12s a huge disappointment.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

jpserra said:


> wish this guy dmvdub would shut the **** up already


Thanks for your contribution. Now stfu.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Jeff, waterfest is by far the worst day to race. It has always been 90-100* and tons of humidity. My car typically at water fest always runs high 13's with wheelspin. Spring and fall show n go are much friendlier in terms of 1/4 mile. 

According to mph both of our cars are plenty capable of getting into the 12's. Traction is our enemy off the line. I remember this past waterfest you were spinning through 1st and 2nd on slicks and still running great times. 

For me its mostly about HPDE. Expensive, but a full day of fun and fast driving.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> Jeff, waterfest is by far the worst day to race. It has always been 90-100* and tons of humidity. My car typically at water fest always runs high 13's with wheelspin. Spring and fall show n go are much friendlier in terms of 1/4 mile.
> 
> According to mph both of our cars are plenty capable of getting into the 12's. Traction is our enemy off the line. I remember this past waterfest you were spinning through 1st and 2nd on slicks and still running great times.
> 
> For me its mostly about HPDE. Expensive, but a full day of fun and fast driving.


Both of you guys are set up for Auto-X though aren't you? Still the trap times aren't bad. :thumbup:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> Both of you guys are set up for Auto-X though aren't you? Still the trap times aren't bad. :thumbup:


Jeff for sure auto-x.
Me more HPDE events.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> Jeff for sure auto-x.
> Me more HPDE events.


Gotcha.

See the point of this entire post ideally would be guys like the two of you adding your experience since you use them for Motorsport events. It would really give people a one stop shop to see what results people are getting from each setup in different racing methods.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I wanted a turbo that can be versatile and be used for daily use as well as HPDE events, but not be lazy if I wanted to autocross. The f23 gives me full boost by 3000-3200 rpms and has a very wide powerband. Typically at the HPDE events I'll run 15psi (fuel pump limited) and see average egt's ( measured 12") post turbine of 1350-1400*. 

The turbo currently at 15 psi gives me a nice linear powerband and 300whp. Fully stripped down with a full tank of gas an me in it the car weighs in around 2900 lbs. Even at 15psi the car is plenty capable and fast. When USRT releases the G2 pump I'll look into upping the boost to 20 consistently around the road course.

@ Monticello motor speedway (no longer open to public) the car was awesome. It would hold its own very well against your e36 or e46 m3. 

With my Peloquin LSD AND 245/40/17 tires the car has plenty of traction coming into and out of the corners. 
Brakes were originally OEM R32 up front and OEM 20th in the rear.
I have since gone to OEM R32 rotors and Brembo 17Z calipers up front with 18Z pads. I modified the 18z pads to work since it gives you 10mm more pad surface over the 17z pad and covers nearly the entire r32 rotor. Car is still nicely Balanced while braking and can hit the brakes fairly late in the corners.

Overall I have over 20k on my f23 with over 50 drag passes, at least 10 autocross events and 6 HPDE events at lime rock, Monticello and Thunderbolt raceway. Just a note for autocross I limit myself to 15psi for traction purposes in my GTI. I'm sure with R compound tires and some 285's up front I'd be able to make full use of the powerband.

Overall happy with the turbo and its durability. Couldn't ask for more.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Also, its not fair to compare the F23 to the GTT. One is based on a K04 frame and the other one is based on a K03 (IMO the K04-001 is still really a K03) frame.

The new GTTx will be released in both K03 and K04 style frames and that should allow for some better comparisons to be made.

The GTT still holds the highest HP record for a K03 turbo frame 

Let's keep it civil, please :thumbup:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> I wanted a turbo that can be versatile and be used for daily use as well as HPDE events, but not be lazy if I wanted to autocross. The f23 gives me full boost by 3000-3200 rpms and has a very wide powerband. Typically at the HPDE events I'll run 15psi (fuel pump limited) and see average egt's ( measured 12") post turbine of 1350-1400*.
> 
> The turbo currently at 15 psi gives me a nice linear powerband and 300whp. Fully stripped down with a full tank of gas an me in it the car weighs in around 2900 lbs. Even at 15psi the car is plenty capable and fast. When USRT releases the G2 pump I'll look into upping the boost to 20 consistently around the road course.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing! This is what we'd like to see. THIS is the whole point of this thread. 

What you use it for, and how it's doing for you. 

That's all. It's a pretty simple concept and you've hit the nail on the head! :thumbup::beer:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Also, its not fair to compare the F23 to the GTT. One is based on a K04 frame and the other one is based on a K03 (IMO the K04-001 is still really a K03) frame.
> 
> The new GTTx will be released in both K03 and K04 style frames and that should allow for some better comparisons to be made.
> 
> ...


So will there be expected power differences between the two styles?

I was under the impression the main difference would be the mounting flange / oil and coolant lines.


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> So will there be expected power differences between the two styles?
> 
> I was under the impression the main difference would be the mounting flange / oil and coolant lines.



The hot sides on the 2 turbos are very different. The k04 is quite a bit bigger than the k03.

We can make around 10% more power on the k04 than the k03 for the same effort. However , the k03 will make similar power as the k04 but it runs hotter and harsher than the k04 ..

The compressor a/r is also different being bigger on the k04 but this doesn't have the same effect on the power as the the hot side does..

Hot sides and turbine will always limits these turbos


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## [email protected] Motorsports (Sep 24, 2013)

I've had my share of Hybrids...Back in 2002, I ran one of the 1st E04B turbo's from Eurospec, to say the least it only lasted 3 months.
However, these hybrids have come a long way and they're interesting to see.

I am by no means trying to de-rail this; however, I have not yet seen a hybrid of this kind. That's a crazy azz compressor


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] Motorsports said:


> I've had my share of Hybrids...Back in 2002, I ran one of the 1st E04B turbo's from Eurospec, to say the least it only lasted 3 months.
> However, these hybrids have come a long way and they're interesting to see.
> 
> I am by no means trying to de-rail this; however, I have not yet seen a hybrid of this kind. That's a crazy azz compressor


That thing is evil looking! I went to their FB page and it seems they're only advertising ~225hp ~300lbft I wonder what boost? 

Nevermind their site actually advertises ~280bhp


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] Motorsports said:


> I've had my share of Hybrids...Back in 2002, I ran one of the 1st E04B turbo's from Eurospec, to say the least it only lasted 3 months.
> However, these hybrids have come a long way and they're interesting to see.
> 
> I am by no means trying to de-rail this; however, I have not yet seen a hybrid of this kind. That's a crazy azz compressor


LOL

I like the V-Band'esque clamp on the wastegate actuator. Totally awesome.


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Steampunk Hybrid... needs some copper


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

[email protected] Motorsports said:


> I've had my share of Hybrids...Back in 2002, I ran one of the 1st E04B turbo's from Eurospec, to say the least it only lasted 3 months.
> However, these hybrids have come a long way and they're interesting to see.
> 
> I am by no means trying to de-rail this; however, I have not yet seen a hybrid of this kind. That's a crazy azz compressor


That's a tfsi k04 compressor 2283, same size as the gtt I believe.. Just they used a billet adaptor to fit it rather than having compressor housings made.

Compressor wheel is far to big for that turbo..


----------



## [email protected] Motorsports (Sep 24, 2013)

Beachbuggy said:


> That's a tfsi k04 compressor 2283, same size as the gtt I believe.. Just they used a billet adaptor to fit it rather than having compressor housings made.
> 
> Compressor wheel is far to big for that turbo..


The turbine wheel is from a K26, clipped on the exit and machined on the leading edge of the entry.


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

[email protected] Motorsports said:


> The turbine wheel is from a K26, clipped on the exit and machined on the leading edge of the entry.


And what power did it make? 

K26 is a bit ridiculous in the k03...laggy I bet, especially clipped


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

DMVDUB said:


> Steampunk Hybrid... needs some copper


Haha exactly! 15 HP!


----------



## [email protected] Motorsports (Sep 24, 2013)

Beachbuggy said:


> And what power did it make?
> 
> K26 is a bit ridiculous in the k03...laggy I bet, especially clipped


Couldn't tell you.


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

LOL clipped turbo's :laugh: Most of the newbs probably had to google that term as it's somewhat of a lost art. Last time I heard that term was 10+ years ago in the DSM world. Back then it was even offered in 2 versions(2 different degree's If memory serves me right), and it was the Bee's Knee's back then. I thought it helped spool out not hurt.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> LOL clipped turbo's :laugh: Most of the newbs probably had to google that term as it's somewhat of a lost art. Last time I heard that term was 10+ years ago in the DSM world. Back then it was even offered in 2 versions(2 different degree's If memory serves me right), and it was the Bee's Knee's back then. I thought it helped spool out not hurt.


It really depends on a lot of factors whether it will improve or worsen spool.

Also there is various angles of clipping you can choose to have done (3%, 5%, 10%, etc).


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> LOL clipped turbo's :laugh: Most of the newbs probably had to google that term as it's somewhat of a lost art. Last time I heard that term was 10+ years ago in the DSM world. Back then it was even offered in 2 versions(2 different degree's If memory serves me right), and it was the Bee's Knee's back then. I thought it helped spool out not hurt.


I remember this too (DSM World)... I tossed the idea around for a while and after a few different turbo decisions I figured out it just moved the power band a little further out. I really can't believe the "real" frankenturbo can't be found anywhere. There was a "Big" 16G that was some sort of hybrid magic coined a Frankenstien or Frankenturbo. I almost went with this option thankfully I didn't at the time...could be why they've disappeared. Kinda strange I can find no mention of them anywhere anymore, even for the sake of it being one of those things that didn't work out well...ie E-05.

Edit- found mention http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/368711-frankenstein-level-4-turbo.html


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> LOL clipped turbo's :laugh: Most of the newbs probably had to google that term as it's somewhat of a lost art. Last time I heard that term was 10+ years ago in the DSM world. Back then it was even offered in 2 versions(2 different degree's If memory serves me right), and it was the Bee's Knee's back then. I thought it helped spool out not hurt.


It's never going to help spool.. Clipping makes the turbine less efficient, but reduces back pressure to helps top end.

In the uk the old k04 hybrids surged like hell.. So the makers of said turbos clipped the turbine 7 degrees to aid the surging issue, all they really did was to delay spool time past the point the surge was gone and sort of beat the surge.

Running a clipped turbine to beat surge is wrong, but using it to help with back pressures can be useful but it will be at the detriment of spool time.

My latest versions using a larger turbine in the tfsi hybrids are running a clipped turbine due to the bhp figures aimed for.. Back pressures and egts are the killers so testing both clipped and non clipped to see how they both fair..


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

http://www.machv.com/frantur.html

"Frankenstein" turbos



The Frankenstein series turbos are assembled by Texas Rebuild Turbos. The name comes from the hybrid nature of these turbochargers. Most of them use Garrett center sections and compressor wheels, with Mitsubishi housings and turbine wheels.

The ball-bearing center section makes for good spool-up and durability.

Here are a couple of Frankenstein models and their specs. The other numbered turbos have performance that ranges between these. Frankenstain 5 and 6 are race-only turbos that can produce 600 horsepower and beyond.


The Real frankenturbo


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

"With some big time turbo lag"


Love it....


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Beachbuggy said:


> "With some big time turbo lag"
> 
> 
> Love it....


Remember these are old as hell 

Really before there was better options.


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> The GTT still holds the highest HP record for a K03 turbo frame


Whats the power/torque record?


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Beachbuggy said:


> It's never going to help spool.. Clipping makes the turbine less efficient, but reduces back pressure to helps top end.
> 
> In the uk the old k04 hybrids surged like hell.. So the makers of said turbos clipped the turbine 7 degrees to aid the surging issue, all they really did was to delay spool time past the point the surge was gone and sort of beat the surge.
> 
> ...



clip vs clearanced........
moving the surge line none the less

hotside limited being the operative stagement... For those who have measured egt's in them and manifold back pressures.... (like I have done)


----------



## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm gonna jump on and say I had a F23 and it was a nightmare the wastegate bushing failed twice and then the wastegate actuator failed. His support on getting me a new part was great but to prove my bushing failed for a warranty claim was like pulling teeth. I had to pay a shop three times to install the turbo and also to remove it and wait for parts. I eventually bolted a forge actuator on and put a high pressure spring in because the wastgate he supplies were so cranked that it couldn't open up far enough to bleed boost so I had major boost creep "Hight EGT". Don't even get me started on his horrible exhaust mani he gave me for the third warranty claim as a hope this make your ass feel better about buying a pos china turbo also he uses used parts and just bead blast them to make them look new. . I eventually got the car running great and used eurodyne for my custom tune. My 2001 Audi TT Quattro was able to best a 13.19 launching at 5500 I'm sure I have the slip somewhere. 

I have since moved on to the big boy stuff and have a pagparts kit with a gtx2871 and am currently making 405 whp at 20 psi on pump gas. Soon to kick the boost up even more in the next week or two. 

Frankenturbo was like a nightmare I couldn't wake up from. I have photos of all this and even videos of the failures along with all responses from him and trying to blame all the failures on a we'll know tuner shop for his failed bushings in the used housings he try's to pawn off as new. 

F23= EPIC Fail!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

opcorn:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

toy4two2 said:


> do not put an F23 kit on your car. Its untuneable. I've given up, trading the TT in on a new Z4... but NOT the turbo one. I'll never buy another turbo car in my life. Electric before turbo. peace


its not untunable - for the record


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

It's a shame that apparently everyone involved from both sides have personal issues, or some other reason to be extremely biased towards the company they are with or have done business with.

Although looking around across the multiple threads where the topic pops up, I have noticed something that makes me kinda laugh. Granted most of these threads get heavily moderated, so I can't be sure what I've seen is really how things went down, but if what I heard is true, the moderation had a tendency to side with FT for a while there... 

Most of the people actually starting the fights are from the FT side. And most of them are started by a FT customer saying that they are so sick of GT starting fights on the forum.

When GT or GT customers respond to any of the statements made about them, they are blamed for starting the fight to begin with. Although they do get rather defensive and personal at times.

I see the GT employees and friends saying the F23 is definitely a comparable turbo as far as quality and power, but the WGA aren't consistently configured, making a canned tune impossible to run safely.

FT customers talk about this, but they do so in a guarded manner. They push for Maestro as the best tuning option, but don't discuss why. But its fairly easy to tell, they can't deny that the f23 tune requires work to be drivable.

Then I see Dougs posts. He does things like quote someone who said they got their f23 running without the need for a MBC, and tries to rub it in people's faces like they were saying its impossible. But it was just another FT customer who had to use Maestro to get their car to run correctly. I also see him gloating about all the companies that offer canned tunes for his car, while ignoring what the issue with them is, they aren't consistent due to the WGA. Why does he keep pretending people are saying the entire turbo is useless when the real issue is that the WGA's don't have a consistent pre-load set? People aren't even saying the WGA's are useless, just not set consistently.

Thats just the stuff I have noticed while looking through all of the threads I've seen floating around the 1.8t tech forum. Again, stuff may have been moved or deleted before I have seen it, but if you look around now, you'll see the same things.


It really seems like the only difference between the GT and FT set ups worth talking about is the software. 

We know what the turbos are, so while specific specifications may differ, end of the day, still a stock frame hybrid.
Customer service, this has proven harder to judge than I expected. Some people are saying the service they have received was great, and some have said it was terrible.

The software part brings up two points;

Price
Reliability 

FT: No software included, multiple tuning options. Canned tunes are not consistently reliable without MBC.
Other option is Eurodyne Maestro. Not sure on the pricing offered by FT, but isn't this an $800 software package? Which I would then have to learn to use to tune my car, or pay someone else to tune my car for me.
So basically, for consistent, reliable software, looks like you'll end up spending more than the hardware itself. 

GT: Only sold with a tune from the same company. Canned tune is reliable. Modifications offered for free / $50 (I think it was $50 for small changes). 

For as much as I would love to learn to use Maestro, and learn to tune my own cars, I don't have the time to spend teaching myself, or being taught. I don't have the money to spend to fix **** that breaks if the tune isnt correct, and I don't have the money to pay someone to tune my car for me.

People forget, one of the reasons to go with a hybrid turbo is a smaller budget. Even Fouad has said the reason he went with a hybrid was because rods were out of the budget, and he didnt want to put a bigger turbo on the car just to blow it up.

For someone with a smaller budget, paying $800+ on top of the hardware isn't really easy. Especially when there is a comparable product with everything included offered for less.


Doug, stop bragging about people who have managed to tune their car with your turbo, and acknowledge the real issue that has been pointed out. We know your WGA's work, that's not the problem. Stop acting like it is. 

Gonzo, You and Jeff both need to calm the **** down. Aggressive responses or posts about personal issues with people make you both seem like butt hurt kids. You don't start the problems, but you make them much much worse the way you handle your responses. 


Ft Customers: You guys REALLY need to stop pointing fingers, because from what I have seen, you are blaming the wrong side for starting a lot of this drama. :thumbdown:
The guys who have left personal feelings out of it and just discussed their builds and the power they are making, Thank you. :thumbup:

GT customers: So far have been doing a decent job of voicing their opinions and experiences, except for DMVDUB.

DMVDUB, seriously man, you need to calm down. Keep your personal issues with people out of these threads. You pop off and get way too aggressive over small things. and honestly, your responses have a tendency to make the problems worse. 
You are obviously an intelligent person who knows a good amount about the hardware from both sides, as well as the software, but you keep polluting your information with your extreme bias due to personal issues. You may not notice it, but you support GT so heavily, you do come off as being part of the team. It's been said that you aren't, but your actions are still directly affecting GT, so if you really are a supporter of the company, tone it down.


----------



## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> It's a shame that apparently everyone involved from both sides have personal issues, or some other reason to be extremely biased towards the company they are with or have done business with.
> 
> Although looking around across the multiple threads where the topic pops up, I have noticed something that makes me kinda laugh. Granted most of these threads get heavily moderated, so I can't be sure what I've seen is really how things went down, but if what I heard is true, the moderation had a tendency to side with FT for a while there...
> 
> ...


This post should be stickied as "FT vs. GT, the executive summary."

The only thing I would add to this is that although the turbos are similar and both based on the stock platform, the small differences between the two go a long way when coming up with canned tunes or pushing them to the absolute limits. Something like a greater tolerance threshold or more component fatigue goes a long way when software development demands hardware consistency. If you are shooting for 260 WHP on pump gas, I don't think you're going to find a difference between the two companies, but as soon as you start pushing the envelope people seem to notice more hurdles with one company vs. the other.


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> *DMVDUB, seriously man, you need to calm down. Keep your personal issues with people out of these threads. You pop off and get way too aggressive over small things. and honestly, your responses have a tendency to make the problems worse.
> You are obviously an intelligent person who knows a good amount about the hardware from both sides, as well as the software, but you keep polluting your information with your extreme bias due to personal issues. You may not notice it, but you support GT so heavily, you do come off as being part of the team. It's been said that you aren't, but your actions are still directly affecting GT, so if you really are a supporter of the company, tone it down*.


There, I even quoted it for you, and bumped the thread.


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> There, I even quoted it for you, and bumped the thread.


Shut up.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

DMVDUB said:


> Shut up.


----------



## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

6 pages deep now, and there is nothing new/real here.. This is just childish banter with a side of personal bias on the side.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> 6 pages deep now, and there is nothing new/real here.. This is just childish banter with a side of personal bias on the side.


Obvious statement is obvious..

It's Christmas Eve; get drunk like everyone else bra, srs


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


>


Nah, you'd know if I'm mad. I have no qualms letting out my inner demons 
You know me Jeff :heart:

AmIdYfReAk,

That's what this thread is for, to argue and fight. If someone wants to put something else here of merit they're more than welcome.

Me personally, I'm on no "team" I'm friends with the GT crew because they've never done me wrong. I don't like Doug for personal reasons. If he chooses to make jabs at me, I'll right cross him back. I've said it before and I'll say it again, he should be thankful for what I've given his customers in the last few months.

If he were a man and would admit the help I've given tuning, and diagnosing FT setups has led many of his customers going from wanting to sell their cars, switch to BT, or go a different Hybrid route has made his customers now happy with the setup they chose. But, no I still get BS from him. He knows the customers I'm helping it's obvious even if they don't mention it directly. He is the one who keeps it going.


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> People forget, one of the reasons to go with a hybrid turbo is a smaller budget. Even Fouad has said the reason he went with a hybrid was because rods were out of the budget, and he didnt want to put a bigger turbo on the car just to blow it up.


Man, when i decided to go hybrid route i did a lot of research, but the only mistake i did is joining this forum... i had better stick to uk-mkivs.net with a k04-001 260bhp...

The only benefit i got here is... goods friends...

Now i am stick with a good set up but don't know how to tune it...

I said it a lot of time, i don't care who helps me if GT or FT.. i want to solve it out... i am sick of it...

CAN YOU IMAGINE IT!!! I AM WORKING ON THIS TUNE FOR 1 MONTH NOW AND STILL WHERE I STARTED...

Damn...


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Man, when i decided to go hybrid route i did a lot of research, but the only mistake i did is joining this forum... i had better stick to uk-mkivs.net with a k04-001 260bhp...
> 
> The only benefit i got here is... goods friends...
> 
> ...


Dont feel bad. Gonzo gave up on fixing mine, and it took him months to get that far. To make it worse, he is now trying to take back his refund, claiming that it was an "unauthorized transaction" on his PayPal account :laugh:

Nice try Muppet :beer:


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

warranty225cpe said:


> Dont feel bad. Gonzo gave up on fixing mine, and it took him months to get that far. To make it worse, he is now trying to take back his refund, claiming that it was an "unauthorized transaction" on his PayPal account :laugh:
> 
> Nice try Muppet :beer:


So is this problem the crappy bosch ecu? or the crappy chinese turbo?


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

gdoggmoney said:


> So is this problem the crappy bosch ecu? or the crappy chinese turbo?


Neither. And Im not exactly sure what you are or arent implying..


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

warranty225cpe said:


> Dont feel bad. Gonzo gave up on fixing mine, and it took him months to get that far. To make it worse, he is now trying to take back his refund, claiming that it was an "unauthorized transaction" on his PayPal account :laugh:
> 
> Nice try Muppet :beer:


I believe he mentioned you not sending your ecu in for a flash back to stock, but I guess you forgot that detail.



Waiting for another thread to pop in a week with a another issue you cant figure out......


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Dave926 said:


> I believe he mentioned you not sending your ecu in for a flash back to stock, but I guess you forgot that detail.
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting for another thread to pop in a week with a another issue you cant figure out......


Why would I send a fried ECU back to Gonzo to flash to stock? And why may I ask are you such a rude prick over this topic? You continue to be condescending, but you want me to take the high road? 

Merry Christmas :wave:


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

warranty225cpe said:


> Neither. And Im not exactly sure what you are or arent implying..


I'm asking what the root cause of the problem is? The ECU? Lack of being able to tune it -- or the turbo itself?


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

gdoggmoney said:


> I'm asking what the root cause of the problem is? The ECU? Lack of being able to tune it -- or the turbo itself?


The tune. All hardware has been gone over, and over, and over again. Since the WG actuator was squared away, the turbo seems to be fine.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

warranty225cpe said:


> Why would I send a fried ECU back to Gonzo to flash to stock? And why may I ask are you such a rude prick over this topic? You continue to be condescending, but you want me to take the high road?
> 
> Merry Christmas :wave:


Merry Christmas.

Reason im a condescending ******* is simply because rather than figure something out yourself, you create a thread.

Learn from the rest of us, and figure it out for yourself.


And that fried ecu, can still have that data pulled off it. If its fried, at least you wont have to pay for return shipping.


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Dave926 said:


> Merry Christmas.
> 
> Reason im a condescending ******* is simply because *rather than figure something out yourself, you create a thread*.
> 
> ...


This is based on your assumption. You really know nothing about what Ive done to troubleshoot/diagnose my issue. So rather than assume you know, ask. The attitude and drama is unnecessary.

At this point, Gonzo has fought so dirty, that Ill probably just sell the tune to the highest bidder. Maybe then he will know what its like to have something stolen. Even if it never belonged to him in the first place


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> Dont feel bad. Gonzo gave up on fixing mine, and it took him months to get that far. To make it worse, he is now trying to take back his refund, claiming that it was an "unauthorized transaction" on his PayPal account :laugh:
> 
> Nice try Muppet :beer:


You see you are also lucky to have Paypal service, here in Beirut we don't have it yet, and I have to do wire-transfer via my bank every time I want to pay and they charge you 30$ bank fees... 

I will try my last shot these coming 2 days with Matt, if it failed I will, I WILL burn this fucn car and get a Kia Picanto!!!!


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> You see you are also lucky to have Paypal service, here in Beirut we don't have it yet, and I have to do wire-transfer via my bank every time I want to pay and they charge you 30$ bank fees...
> 
> I will try my last shot these coming 2 days with Matt, if it failed I will, I WILL burn this fucn car and get a Kia Picanto!!!!


Lol, dont do it. Dont give up yet. Matt should be able to help get you sorted. And Pay Pal has its flaws too. For instance, Gonzo tried to pay me as a "gift" so he could try to take it back whenever he wants (like hes trying to do right now). But, 2 can play that game. Gonzo is finding that out right now :laugh:


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Man, when i decided to go hybrid route i did a lot of research, but the only mistake i did is joining this forum... i had better stick to uk-mkivs.net with a k04-001 260bhp...
> 
> The only benefit i got here is... goods friends...
> 
> ...



Hopefully everything gets sorted out for you. I've seen in your thread you have a few people trying to give you advice.

I know it must be infuriating to not have your car up and running, but you have to be patient. What you don't want to do now i try to rush things to get done, and break anything else. You alo don't want to be changing too many different things that different people are saying.


Having people PM you what they think you should be changing is only really going to hurt you in the long run, if you follow that advice and don't let anyone else now what it is you have done. You'll still have people telling you to change other things without knowing what is now different.

Another issue is all the Ego's from the people involved, as well as personal issues. People wanting to be the ONE person who helped you, or people just waiting for someone else to make even a tiny mistake so they can call them out for not doing something perfectly. I can definitely see why some wouldn't want to get involved.

Sorry I can't do anything to really help you in your situation. I know even less about changing a tune for these cars than you do now.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> It's Christmas Eve; get drunk like everyone else bra, srs


Happy Holidays Jeff!:beer::beer:




LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Now i am stick with a good set up but don't know how to tune it...
> 
> I said it a lot of time, i don't care who helps me if GT or FT.. i want to solve it out... i am sick of it...
> 
> ...


Yeah it gets frustrating. This is why I was trying to point you in a different direction for a tune in the beginning. Eventually you will show it who's boss. 
Happy Holidays to you! :beer::beer:


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> Yeah it gets frustrating. This is why I was trying to point you in a different direction for a tune in the beginning. *Eventually you will show its who is boss. *
> Happy Holidays to you! :beer::beer:


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

gdoggmoney said:


> So is this problem the crappy bosch ecu? or the crappy chinese turbo?


Both but mainly the cheap china turbo!


----------



## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Both but mainly the cheap china turbo!


Other than the actuator what's actually wrong with the cheap Chinese turbo?


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Both but mainly the cheap china turbo!


lol



Beachbuggy said:


> Other than the actuator what's actually wrong with the cheap Chinese turbo?


Actuator and the wg bushing (but I believe thats been fixed on the newer models)


----------



## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> Lol, dont do it. Dont give up yet. Matt should be able to help get you sorted. And Pay Pal has its flaws too. For instance, Gonzo tried to pay me as a "gift" so he could try to take it back whenever he wants (like hes trying to do right now). But, 2 can play that game. Gonzo is finding that out right now :laugh:


well at least you don't have to call you bank so they release the transfer you did, and last time i was transfering 300$ i had one stupid guys calling me from the bank to ask me about the reason and he started Bullsh!tting about money laundry... so i told him who the F*** would do money laundry for 300$!!!



Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Hopefully everything gets sorted out for you. I've seen in your thread you have a few people trying to give you advice.
> 
> I know it must be infuriating to not have your car up and running, but you have to be patient. What you don't want to do now i try to rush things to get done, and break anything else. You alo don't want to be changing too many different things that different people are saying.
> 
> ...


I believe and really believe if all the people get involved in one thing and collaborate to solve it out... they will do and quickly... However i feel that some people build their GLORY and EGO on other mistakes!!! and who is the victims here??

WE ARE!!! 



Twopnt016v said:


> Yeah it gets frustrating. This is why I was trying to point you in a different direction for a tune in the beginning. Eventually you will show it who's boss.
> Happy Holidays to you! :beer::beer:


Indeed Matt, last day i mentioned you when i was trying to solve the OPEN LOOP i am facing!!! Then i said "I should have listen to Matt from the beginning!!! But i am glad i am having some support from DMVDUB... I think he will solve it out... Doug is also helping!!! 

The funny thing is that Doug and DMVDUB recommeded to raise the EGT threshold to 950c and since i did it the car got better and the performance is better... I barely have knock but the problem is with the fueling, so i guess no piston slap... that's the good thing.

I HOPE someday GT and FT will solve their problem for the own benefit of this community!!!:beer::beer:

Merry Christmas to all of YOU!!!:beer:


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

Beachbuggy said:


> Other than the actuator what's actually wrong with the cheap Chinese turbo?


There bad quality is all that needs to be known. You could do a bt build for about $500-$1000 more with less boost and more power and no drop off on the top end. And if your on stock rods lower the boost and also know you won't have to worry about boost spikes anymore that could cause a bent rod. But huge gain on top end and knowing you have a quality product is priceless


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

Ill formed opinion rather than actual fact is damaging to all those involved. 

Maybe , rather than assuming I or any other person doesn't need to know , you actually provide solid detail. Yes there is some crap out there but not every turbo part that leaves the Chinese shore is poor quality, blanket labelling that is all "poor" just goes to show how naive your comment is.

And considering the ft and GTT come apparently from the same factory and design then I guess you include these in your statement. . Nice


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

well, my job is a commercial manager and i deal with European brands, especially Italy, let me tell you about that. All the people from every country and due to the low salary paid in China they went and open their factory in China. However, since the chinese people are not dumb they learned the European way of production and they start to produce there own brand the same as the European quality!!!

I am not going to do generalization, but there is a lot of chinese brand even more qualified than the European one. 

Cheap doesn't mean bad quality and expensive does not mean good quality...

I bought a K04-001 Turbo from CTS that last 6 months on my car without any remap!!! and of course they valid the warrenty and did not send me back anything, in contrary they run their month about me being an annoying Client, but their customer service and Clay sux...

I bought ECS poly bushes that were even worst than Korean one!!!

Just look at the result the GTT and FT are doing they are awesome for stock platform if they were tuned well.

:beer:


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

Beachbuggy said:


> Ill formed opinion rather than actual fact is damaging to all those involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


THIS ONLY APPLIES TO FRANKENTURBO


Ok, improperly balanced cold side, USED hot side on which he says he ports the wastegate but doesn't port them enough or do it correctly. ****ty welded and designed exhaust manifold. TIP is not made to be a exact fit. Cranked down factory wastegate. The only thing of quality on this product is the wastegate actuator which is oem but he attempted to have some cheap china ones made but those didn't workout. His ceramic coating is a joke and all of his turbos run sky high EGT's unless you run a appropriate wastegate and spring "Forge with 16lb spring" after replacing the turbo three times due to failures and not using the forth because the last one of those times the flap got stuck closed causing it to push 30+psi on my at the time stock rods with in return bent one of them hence the reason of getting rid of the setup and doing a proper one. Plus he always questioned the failures even though he knew what the issue was from. All of this happened within 6 months. The turbo had only 4500 miles on it when it was sold and already had shaft play on it. What else you wanna know as I could have my mechanic post on here as well as I'm sure he knows more. My new build is great and everything that I bought has exceeded my expectations. Thanks Pagparts for the cleanest and most reliable kit.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

WiKKiDTT said:


> THIS ONLY APPLIES TO FRANKENTURBO
> 
> 
> Ok, improperly balanced cold side, USED hot side on which he says he ports the wastegate but doesn't port them enough or do it correctly. ****ty welded and designed exhaust manifold. TIP is not made to be a exact fit. Cranked down factory wastegate. The only thing of quality on this product is the wastegate actuator which is oem but he attempted to have some cheap china ones made but those didn't workout. His ceramic coating is a joke and all of his turbos run sky high EGT's unless you run a appropriate wastegate and spring "Forge with 16lb spring" after replacing the turbo three times due to failures and not using the forth because the last one of those times the flap got stuck closed causing it to push 30+psi on my at the time stock rods with in return bent one of them hence the reason of getting rid of the setup and doing a proper one. Plus he always questioned the failures even though he knew what the issue was from. All of this happened within 6 months. The turbo had only 4500 miles on it when it was sold and already had shaft play on it. What else you wanna know as I could have my mechanic post on here as well as I'm sure he knows more. My new build is great and everything that I bought has exceeded my expectations. Thanks Pagparts for the cleanest and most reliable kit.


damn bro, sorry to hear that bro. im sure youre loving pag's kit GL:thumbup:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

PAG FTW. had to...:laugh:

Crazy to hear all that about your FT... I had mine at 18psi since day one. Put a good 10k miles on it, autocrossed it, tracked it, took it off (for my pag kit) and it was clean and solid. No shaft play. Only boost "issue" I had was needing the MBC, but whatever, I run off my WG now and will use a MBC again eventually. Dont see the big deal really.


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## vtraudt (Mar 1, 2010)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> The funny thing is that Doug and DMVDUB recommeded to raise the EGT threshold to 950c and since i did it the car got better and the performance is better... I barely have knock but the problem is with the fueling, so i guess no piston slap... that's the good thing.


Not sure if I should enter this hellhole of a thread. But it is the first time I see an issue mentioned that took me a lot of time and grey hair to 'hammer home' with my 'partner in crime', the one and only Daz:

There is no EGT sensor on our 1.8T. Hence Bosch wrote an algorithm to CALCULATE the EGT from operating data of the existing sensors. Took quite a bit of time weeding through the 1800 page PDF (in German, written by Bosch engineers). AND they instruct the OEM (here: Audi) to take measurement of THEIR setup (here: tiny stock manifold, small K03 turbine, restrictive cat) and plug those empirical data into the algorithm. Well, pushing twice as much air through the engine on totally different hardware setup naturally creates a misfit, and the calculated values are WRONG. But the threshold kicks in. 

To convince myself (and Daz), I had to buy EGT sensors and logging hardware/software and logged ACTUAL temps, which proofed an offset of pretty much exactly 200 deg C. Based on THAT, we were finally able to safely move the threshold up. I am sure Doug has gone through this before, hence his recommendation to raise the EGT threshold in the Me7 software.


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## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

This is pretty entertaining to read while deployed lol.


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## ibizacupra (Nov 23, 2001)

vtraudt said:


> Not sure if I should enter this hellhole of a thread. But it is the first time I see an issue mentioned that took me a lot of time and grey hair to 'hammer home' with my 'partner in crime', the one and only Daz:
> 
> There is no EGT sensor on our 1.8T. Hence Bosch wrote an algorithm to CALCULATE the EGT from operating data of the existing sensors. Took quite a bit of time weeding through the 1800 page PDF (in German, written by Bosch engineers). AND they instruct the OEM (here: Audi) to take measurement of THEIR setup (here: tiny stock manifold, small K03 turbine, restrictive cat) and plug those empirical data into the algorithm. Well, pushing twice as much air through the engine on totally different hardware setup naturally creates a misfit, and the calculated values are WRONG. But the threshold kicks in.
> 
> To convince myself (and Daz), I had to buy EGT sensors and logging hardware/software and logged ACTUAL temps, which proofed an offset of pretty much exactly 200 deg C. Based on THAT, we were finally able to safely move the threshold up. I am sure Doug has gone through this before, hence his recommendation to raise the EGT threshold in the Me7 software.



unless its a 225 AMK/BAM engine, in which case its k04 and comes with egt Actual measurement from probe located in turbo


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## vtraudt (Mar 1, 2010)

ibizacupra said:


> unless its a 225 AMK/BAM engine, in which case its k04 and comes with egt Actual measurement from probe located in turbo


And certainly the 2.7T (with 2 narrow band EGT probes) for measurement of actual EGT.


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

Big_Tom said:


> yes i have actually, just not been posting anything real on here since they locked my build thread and banned me. lol you guys can figure it out :laugh:


tom pm me your facebook info


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Hit me up in pm for fb relay Tom. Bastsrd guy


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## oakleys20th (Apr 7, 2010)

*who id stick with.*

Too be honest I've been following Frankenturbos stuff for a few years and there products seem very nice. Now i am very interested in the gtt annihilator kit but all the name bashing is why id stay away. Ive been in the vw/audi game ten years now and it sucks seein this type of behavior from our enthusiast base. Its how honda guys act. Im not putting blame on gonzo directly cause its mainly the followers of his that do the trash talking. These turbos are very similar from what i see and the output they give is very similar as well from the gtt kit and f21 kit Frankenturbo has some time under there belt and i feel they should get a little more professional courtesy, and reading thru all the different threads its always the same people down talking FT and another reason i like FT is that he just stays out of it and doesnt fuel the fire. He just gives his solid test data and facts, i wish the mk4 forums werent so biased sometimes and its why i rarely post here.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Doug's experiements are sometimes "silly" to say the least.

That being said when you have a hardware and software supplier rolled into one, the end result is always very good (GTT). Look at the APR Stg3 kits, minus the lackluster power they were very well put together.


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