# What will be your cost limit for APR Stg 3?



## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

Just a question to what us consumers are expecting the price to be, and what we are willin to spen on this excellently awaited product.


I believe now it will be over $10,000. Ad I'm on the fence about paying that. If I decide to purchase, ill have to sell a project car or max one of my cards out lol.

THOUGHTS?

I had a poll I was adding but, i timed out creating it and it didnt attatch due to dumb phone typing lol, these were the options:


$12,000
$11,500
$11,000
$10,500
$10,000
$9,500
$9,000
$8,500
More than $5,000 but less than $8,000
Ill rob a bank, and/or do anything to own this epic performance


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Dan.S said:


> Just a question to what us consumers are expecting the price to be, and what we are willin to spen on this excellently awaited product.
> 
> 
> I believe now it will be over $10,000. Ad I'm on the fence about paying that. If I decide to purchase, ill have to sell a project car or max one of my cards out lol.
> ...


I don't think people will be able to judge until they know what comes with the kit, and the power output of the kit.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

Well its a start. Gauging from APRs previous statements on the kit and the demo videos. Im pretty sure we can all take an educated estimate to what it will be.  As well as judging from history.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Dan.S said:


> Well its a start. Gauging from APRs previous statements on the kit and the demo videos. Im pretty sure we can all take an educated estimate to what it will be.  As well as judging from history.


What do you think it will be?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

I'm out if they charge extra for some fancy coating.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

Poverty said:


> What do you think it will be?


I stated that in my first post... Over $10,000 probably closer to $12,000.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I'm out if they charge extra for some fancy coating.


Indeed,

Check out turbo prices on ebay.
All you need is some piping, zip ties and jb weld.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

There are things to consider other than just the cost of the kit itself. 

Guesstimates 
Installation Costs - $1500
New Clutch w/install - $3000
Intercooler w/install - $1800

So right off the bat before even considering the cost I am guessing that I would be in for $6300

So even if the kit is only $8000 (I am guessing it will be more) you are already looking at $15k to get into it. 

That is a lot of money for 150hp.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

croman44 said:


> There are things to consider other than just the cost of the kit itself.
> 
> Guesstimates
> Installation Costs - $1500
> ...


And that was what I was getting at... For the Kit alone, its gona be up there, and the MANDATORY supporting mods are gona put it over the moon.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> Indeed,
> 
> Check out turbo prices on ebay.
> All you need is some piping, zip ties and jb weld.


You are being a class A idiot... but I guess someone has to be that guy. Congrats, I bet your parents are proud!


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## 311-in-337 (Feb 19, 2003)

Dan.S said:


> You are being a class A idiot... but I guess someone has to be that guy. Congrats, I bet your parents are proud!



I think they are just poking fun Dan. 

We are all on the same team remember! eace:


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

311-in-337 said:


> I think they are just poking fun Dan.
> 
> We are all on the same team remember! eace:


I realize that from his facetious posts in the other thread. I'm not mad, just pointing out the obvious lol. He ha taken it upon himself to follow me and make a mockery of my posts to inflate his own ego in the eyes if his peers. Something adolescents do...


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

Looking at a couple of stage III kits APR offers for 2.0T engines, they come in around $6K. I estimate the TTRS will command a higher price point due to smaller volumes and the spending power of owners. My estimate = $7000 (kit only, no installation or clutch)

I think if the kit cost much more than that there would be no demand. I mean, if you really need that kind of speed why not just sell the TTRS (stylish as it is) for a faster and more capable car? Unless you are just dying for a major project with high risk and reward.


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

gengo said:


> Looking at a couple of stage III kits APR offers for 2.0T engines, they come in around $6K. I estimate the TTRS will command a higher price point due to smaller volumes and the spending power of owners. My estimate = $7000 (kit only, no installation or clutch)


best of luck with that price, in your dreams. just wait a few years for other tuners to produce kits and prices will come down gradually.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Isn't there a point when its just better to get another car?
I really like the RS but if your all in @$80-90/k its still a 3300lb car with 60% over the front wheels built on a golf chassis and its has its design limits .
An RS @ 60-65k its a great performance value (love it)@ 80-90? There are other options . carl


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

carl44 said:


> Isn't there a point when its just better to get another car?
> I really like the RS but if your all in @$80-90/k its still a 3300lb car with 60% over the front wheels built on a golf chassis and its has its design limits .
> An RS @ 60-65k its a great performance value (love it)@ 80-90? There are other options . carl


Most people finance cars, not buy them outright, so there is no shock value of dropping that much at once... So there isn't realy a point there. My SRT ran $24k and I put around $30k+ into it over the years, but it doesn't seem it.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

canuckttrs said:


> best of luck with that price, in your dreams. just wait a few years for other tuners to produce kits and prices will come down gradually.


Based on cipsony's numbers it seems Loba already has a competitive product on the market.


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

$7995.00 kit only


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dan.S said:


> Most people finance cars, not buy them outright, so there is no shock value of dropping that much at once... So there isn't realy a point there. My SRT ran $24k and I put around $30k+ into it over the years, but it doesn't seem it.


 Cost is cost, financing mods has additional costs plus you can end up making payments long after the car is gone. What do i know? Im a guy that got killed in Florida real-estate. Compared to that a $90k RS is a great deal. carl


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

carl44 said:


> Isn't there a point when its just better to get another car?
> I really like the RS but if your all in @$80-90/k its still a 3300lb car with 60% over the front wheels built on a golf chassis and its has its design limits .
> An RS @ 60-65k its a great performance value (love it)@ 80-90? There are other options . carl


This was the point I was trying to make. People who actually want to go fast at track will just get a different car. And if you want a kit like this for the street for that "holy sh1t" factor when you mash the pedal, just know you are in for countless hours at the shop and repair bills... which is not a shot at APR. All modified cars have issues. All of them.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Modding cars can be fun but the trick is to know when to stop. I started 50 years ago @16 with a 56 Pontiac that i bought for$150 from a buddy. Found a Tri-Power set up in a junk yard and that started it. More power = more burn outs=blown trans+rear end then the clutch ECT. Since then Ive done the same drill with Porsche's GT2,GT3,Lotus, BMW M3s (several) a F355 a corvette Z06. The trick is not going over the work/cost-reward ratio tiring to make a car into something its not will always be a compromise . There are times when all your doing is buying yourself is aggravation.. I still mod but with limits. Im still not cured but better. carl


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

carl44 said:


> Modding cars can be fun but the trick is to know when to stop. I started 50 years ago @16 with a 56 Pontiac that i bought for$150 from a buddy. Found a Tri-Power set up in a junk yard and that started it. More power = more burn outs=blown trans+rear end then the clutch ECT. Since then Ive done the same drill with Porsche's GT2,GT3,Lotus, BMW M3s (several) a F355 a corvette Z06. The trick is not going over the work/cost-reward ratio tiring to make a car into something its not will always be a compromise . There are times when all your doing is buying yourself is aggravation.. I still mod but with limits. Im still not cured but better. carl


Help me out here. I am trying to think of a better all around new car for $80K.

TTRS $60K
Stage 2 tune $2500 (including all recommend parts and labor)
Stage 3 kit $7000 (guessing)
New clutch $3000
Labor $2000

Total $75,500.

What is out there that can come close to a 600HP TTRS for that kind of money? Obviously we are not going to talk about muscle cars. The only thing I can think of is a Vette. Porsche territory for that kind of performance is around 200K right? GTR is abit over 100K. What am I missing? 

Your words are wise about buying yourself a headache. This is the third car that I have done some serious modding on. The first was amazing (add an SC to a G35... perfect). The second was a 335i (total disaster). Now the TTRS, so far so good. I am very interested in the whole Stage 3 discussion as I am on the fence about the headache/reliability factor. 

For me, I am much more likely to spend $15K to $20K if I know it will drastically improve my chances of having a reliable car. If spending $10K gives me a 50% chance of some major headaches in less than 30K miles, then no thanks. If spending 15K means only a 20% chance of major headaches in 30K miles, then maybe. If spending 20K means a 10% chance of major headaches, then count me in (that is if the boss approves the expenditure, which she probably will). 

I realize that I am probably dreaming to even think that dollars spent will equal less frustration, but hey that is why I want to benefit from everyone's thoughts and experiences.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

carl44 said:


> Cost is cost, financing mods has additional costs plus you can end up making payments long after the car is gone. What do i know? Im a guy that got killed in Florida real-estate. Compared to that a $90k RS is a great deal. carl


I never said anything about financing mods lol. That to me is just stupid. I made a joke I'd have to max out a credit card of mine, but ill never do that ****. It cash or nothing for me here.


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## lude219 (Sep 26, 2012)

With a stage 3, you're talking about 450-500hp for +$80k... And somehow i doubt that it would be more reliable and fun than a c7 Vette (or z06 variant by then). I don't want to be one of those people who have more money than sense, but it'll be stupid not to cross shop for other vehicles with better performance/price ratio at that point.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

lude219 said:


> With a stage 3, you're talking about 450-500hp for +$80k... And somehow i doubt that it would be more reliable and fun than a c7 Vette (or z06 variant by then). I don't want to be one of those people who have more money than sense, but it'll be stupid not to cross shop for other vehicles with better performance/price ratio at that point.


We are nearly at 450hp with stage2. That is $2500 at most. I think most of us are expecting 600+ for stage 3. 

Having said that I agree the C7 is very interesting. It will not work for me because I must be able to fit kids in the back every once in a while. However, I have thought about getting a third car for this purpose, but that would just be impractical (yes I realize how ridiculous I sound).

As I mentioned, other than C7 what else can you get TTRS stage 2 or 3 performance, handling, and practicality for under 100K? It seems like the sub 100K trifecta.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

Yeah depending on fuel, expecting north of 550whp with pump 91... (Including all supporting power mods which is + additional ~$6,000)

If its not close to that, won't be worth it for ****... I bought this car for the potential for sure, not to get ass raped and disappointed on the cleanup.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Dan.S said:


> Yeah depending on fuel, expecting north of 550whp with pump 91... (Including all supporting power mods which is + additional ~$6,000)
> 
> If its not close to that, won't be worth it for ****... I bought this car for the potential for sure, not to get ass raped and disappointed on the cleanup.


I hear your passionate belief that this price / performance equation is not good and you have several others agreeing with you. I don't agree or disagree. I might be missing something. We already paid a premium for our toys. It only seems logical that we would continue to pay the same premium. To me this is not getting raped. It is just the nature of the category we chose. I expect to be able to mod a Camaro for less than a G37 and a 335i for less than a TTRS and a TTRS for less than a Porsche Turbo. In most instances there really is not that much difference in the actual cost of one part verses the other. It is more the "Gucci"factor. 

Where is my logic or analysis off?


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

The sum of the parts should be equal to what the consumers deem to be a fair reward...


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Dan.S said:


> The sum of the parts should be equal to what the consumers deem to be a fair reward...


Where did that come from. Dan you are waxing philosophical Well said! At the end of the day, if we are happy with our purchase then all is good. This is exactly why I don't understand why some of us get all upset about someone else's preference.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

My thoughts (what I believe and not necesarily what will happen):
Turbo kit (turbo, wastegate, exhaust manifold, turbo-IC connecting pipe, turbo downpipe, turbo elbow, turbo connecting hoses, all connection seals ..., oil + filter, ecu upgrade, sparks) ~ 9000 USD
IC - purchased with the kit (with a discount) ~ 1300 USD 
Clutch - purchased with the kit (with a discount) ~ 1800 USD

All this will be capable of a real 500-530 Chp / ~410-430 Whp and the car will be similar to a loba 500P unit BUT will be advertised with something like: 580 Chp @ 530 Whp on 93Fuel and 650Chp @ 590 Whp on 100 Fuel.

For using Race fuel APR will recommend upgraded internals.

People should keep in mind that the maximum power that was extracted on a stock 2.0 tfsi was about 480 Chp (for a test - this doesn't mean you can push the engine that high and actually drive it anytime and anywhere). The 2.5 engine is quite similar to the 2.0 just that it has one extra cylinder so if you do the math the maximum limit is about 600. On this figure you need to have at least 50 bhp you need to have some room if something goes wrong.

I can bet that when released the big turbo kit will be very closed to the 500hp loba unit but advertised with much more. Even if you look at the 2.0 tfsi figures on the APR website you will see some strange figures for wheel horse power and crank horse power.

Stock TT RS (europe version) = 340Chp / 278 Whp (real figures and not over inflated)
Stage 1 TT RS = ~410 Chp / ~340 Whp
Stage 2 TT RS = ~430 Chp / ~352 Whp

IMHO, the trick will not be the price (as the price will be attractive) BUT will be the published figures. Those who will take the car to a mustang dyno will have a big surprise. Even today, those with stage 1 & 2 can take the car to a mustang dyno and see if the figures are similar to APR ones.

My 0.02 cents


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Cipsony
if you check the times and top speed on the straight achieved by the APR car at the Tuner GP HHR,you can see that it must have the 580 ps and loads of torque stated by Wolf to me at the show.
The car is quicker around the track than than the new R8 V10 plus,or a Ferrari 458 with similar tyres fitted, and it's nearly 10 km/h faster down the straight.
The 100 tp 200 km/h time looks to be about 6 secs as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=49DXcRUTeJA


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

This thread is funny. I won't bother correcting people on certain bits as the news is going to drop in a few days anyway...


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Poverty said:


> This thread is funny. I won't bother correcting people on certain bits as the news is going to drop in a few days anyway...


Ok I can't help myself

1. It will murder a Loba car. No disrespect to the Loba, but they are at completely different price points anyway so it's expected.
2. It will murder a z06, I've seen the v-box figures.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

cipsony said:


> My thoughts (what I believe and not necesarily what will happen):
> Turbo kit (turbo, wastegate, exhaust manifold, turbo-IC connecting pipe, turbo downpipe, turbo elbow, turbo connecting hoses, all connection seals ..., oil + filter, ecu upgrade, sparks) ~ 9000 USD
> IC - purchased with the kit (with a discount) ~ 1300 USD
> Clutch - purchased with the kit (with a discount) ~ 1800 USD
> ...


The 2.5 is built a bit stronger than the 2.0 FSI motor, and will definitely handle more hp/cylinder than it did in the same conditions. APR hinted at over 600whp on race fuel, which they would have seen on their dev car, which does not have internals. I'd be surprised if you need internals unless you want to hang out in Jonnyc stage4+ land IMO. With the larger turbo, the spikey low end torque of the tiny stock turbo will instead be replaced with a building smoother torque curve, which is far easier for the rods to handle vs a slightly larger turbo with more torque below 4K.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> The 2.5 is built a bit stronger than the 2.0 FSI motor, and will definitely handle more hp/cylinder than it did in the same conditions. APR hinted at over 600whp on race fuel, which they would have seen on their dev car, which does not have internals. I'd be surprised if you need internals unless you want to hang out in Jonnyc stage4+ land IMO. With the larger turbo, the spikey low end torque of the tiny stock turbo will instead be replaced with a building smoother torque curve, which is far easier for the rods to handle vs a slightly larger turbo with more torque below 4K.


Everything below is wheel as measured on our dynapack:

Our record so far :
(104 octane/Sunoco 260 GT+) is 620lb ft./646 whp
(93) is 530lb ft./540 whp 

Production kits will be backed off this a touch. It was every bit as fast as a Lingenfelter Stage 2 C6 Z06 at Barber last weekend. Guy actually came over and asked "WTF is that car"


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, someone with APR stage 2 should take his car to a mustang dyno and come back here with the results. After this we should have a base for wheel horse power discussions.

It's easy to throw a figure but not being able to back it with real results on the street. Best example: 600hp APR + engine size increased to 2550 cc + super finished gearbox + racing driver + weight reduction = 11.37s @ 127mph
Loba + weight reduction = 11.21s @ 128.62mph

A real 600 engine Hp TT RS should be capable of about 10.5s @ 133mph
Pov's car and JC (according to their expectations of power) should be capable of about 10.1s @ 140mph


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Stage 2 is measured at 380whp

As for Jonnycs time he was running 1.4 bar for that run, due to a faulty sensor, so about 500hp. Also gearbox wasn't superfinished then. I believe your car is lighter too. 


A manual 650hp did 132mph terminal at the same drag strip as jonny and that car ran 10 sec 30-130's in the wet at marham


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

Dan.S said:


> Just a question to what us consumers are expecting the price to be, and what we are willin to spen on this excellently awaited product.
> 
> 
> I believe now it will be over $10,000. Ad I'm on the fence about paying that. If I decide to purchase, ill have to sell a project car or max one of my cards out lol.
> ...



I don't think you will have it for under $20.000,- with all the necessary upgrades. :thumbdown:


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Everything below is wheel as measured on our dynapack:
> 
> Our record so far :
> (104 octane/Sunoco 260 GT+) is 620lb ft./646 whp
> ...




So what's going to be the thought on being able to use E85? We have it out here at locations an its easier to get a hold of then race fuel.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Poverty said:


> Stage 2 is measured at 380whp
> 
> As for Jonnycs time he was running 1.4 bar for that run, due to a faulty sensor, so about 500hp. Also gearbox wasn't superfinished then. I believe your car is lighter too.
> 
> ...


Gearbox was superfinished (check his build thread)
His car had similar weight to mine (check his build thread)

What TT RS with 650hp had 132mph terminal?


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Poverty said:


> As for Jonnycs time he was running 1.4 bar for that run, due to a faulty sensor, so about 500hp.


Why didn't he change the faulty sensor and go back for a world record of under 11 (with 600hp) ?

It's easy to say: 600hp, faulty sensor, boost leak, ...


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Here is some interesting data for the TT RS from the APR website:
1) Stage 2 Fuel 100 = 453chp / 411whp --> 10.2 % losses
2) Stage 2 Fuel 93 = 431 / 382 --> 12.8 % losses
3) Stage 2 Fuel 91 = 419 / 369 --> 13.5 % losses

As far as I know the real losses on the TT RS are well above 15% (I would say close to 20%) and are the same no matter what fuel you put in the car because these are transmission losses. 10% lost through drive-train ... it's hard to believe.

I'm still trying to discover the actual power of 1 APR Hp --> I think 1 APR HP = ~0.85 Real Hp.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm really glad I'm not worried about 1/4 mile times.
60 mph to 150 mph is what I use on a daily basis


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Everything below is wheel as measured on our dynapack:
> 
> Our record so far :
> (104 octane/Sunoco 260 GT+) is 620lb ft./646 whp
> ...



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cipsony said:


> Here is some interesting data for the TT RS from the APR website:
> 1) Stage 2 Fuel 100 = 453chp / 411whp --> 10.2 % losses
> 2) Stage 2 Fuel 93 = 431 / 382 --> 12.8 % losses
> 3) Stage 2 Fuel 91 = 419 / 369 --> 13.5 % losses
> ...


You've got it backwards. We measure wheel horsepower on the dyno and scale up to an estimated crank. If we're estimating 10% losses, than crank is actually HIGHER than we're listing. If the drivetrain losses really are 20%, 1 APR HP would equal about 1.2 of your "Real Hp".


Best to just ignore all of that crank horsepower stuff and focus on the measured value, wheel HP.

If you want to compare things, you can compare the numbers I just posted with the wheel horsepower numbers on our website. Those were all done in the same climate on the same dyno within a few days of each other. Stage 1/2 dynos came from a different car (obviously, since ours has the stage 3 kit on it), but same fuel, same weather, same dyno.

Even if a mustang would give different raw numbers, the delta would be the same and that's what everyone is after.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Actually people are after the hp number and not the delta. 

Basically you are saying that your dyno reads high the OEM figure so you relate to that value. What your dyno shows is what you plot. I say this is not the right way to publish data even though higher numbers sell better.

On the same logic I say the Loba unit makes 500 whp and actually I'm 100% sure that on your dyno in the same conditions my car will make at least that figure ... but it's not a correct one and is not reflecting the reality.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Even if a mustang would give different raw numbers, the delta would be the same and that's what everyone is after.


They really need a sticky at the top of the entire Internet that says "You can't compare wheel horsepower recorded on different dynos."


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

don't forget too that those whp numbers are from the front wheels only with no awd drivetrain losses...in addition to apr using a dyno that attaches directly to the hubs so they aren't suffering friction losses due to tires etc...

so the numbers may be much higher than expected.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> Gearbox was superfinished (check his build thread)
> His car had similar weight to mine (check his build thread)
> 
> What TT RS with 650hp had 132mph terminal?


Sorry I mean Yaz's Porsche turbo.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> don't forget too that those whp numbers are from the front wheels only with no awd drivetrain losses...in addition to apr using a dyno that attaches directly to the hubs so they aren't suffering friction losses due to tires etc...
> 
> so the numbers may be much higher than expected.


Or on another school of thought, more accurate, reliable, and repeatable.

I agree dyno figures mean diddly squat without a delta.

So stage 2+ makes 380whp, stage 3 makes 540whp on 93 ron USA fuel. And for reference stock is 320whp.

Therefore we have a increase of 160whp over stage 2 + and a 220whp gain over stock. That's a hell of a gain.

And we all know the difference stage 2+ makes compared to stock and that's "only" a 60whp gain. So stage 3 is 3.5 times the gain of what stage 2 plus does, that's just crazy. Very very quick car.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Poverty said:


> Very very quick car.


Quoted for emphasis.


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

Williamttrs said:


> Help me out here. I am trying to think of a better all around new car for $80K.
> 
> TTRS $60K
> Stage 2 tune $2500 (including all recommend parts and labor)
> ...


The theoretical $20K being dropped into this car is mostly not recoverable. It will also devalue the car. Your cost comparison does not take into account the fact that many people sell the car after a few years.

Example:
TTRS Purchase price = $65K
Residual Value = $30K (4 years, modded car, total guess) 
Depreciation = (Purchase - Residual) = ($65-$30K) = $35K
Mods = $20K (sunk cost)
Total Cost over 4 years = (Depreciation + Mods) = $35K + $20K = *$55K*

CPO Nissan GT-R. Warranty. Driveability. Resale value. (Also ugly and less fun, but still...). Heck, you could *BUY* a GTR and own it for 4 years for that kind of money. This is just to show how I would look at the costs.


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

gengo said:


> CPO Nissan GT-R. Warranty. Driveability. Resale value. (Also ugly and less fun, but still...)


good point. you can get a 2012 GT-R for about 80K which will destroy pretty much anything out there modded or not. the looks of it have grown on me, so tempting...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

gengo said:


> The theoretical $20K being dropped into this car is mostly not recoverable. It will also devalue the car. Your cost comparison does not take into account the fact that many people sell the car after a few years.
> 
> Example:
> TTRS Purchase price = $65K
> ...


I like the quantitative analysis, but I'd strip the mechanical mods off the car and resell those for at least 50% of what I bought them for. If the car residual shouldn't suffer if the engine and trans checks out to not have any problems (good compression, etc.).


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> I like the quantitative analysis, but I'd strip the mechanical mods off the car and resell those for at least 50% of what I bought them for. If the car residual shouldn't suffer if the engine and trans checks out to not have any problems (good compression, etc.).


If you can do the work yourself then you'll recover some money but I suspect most people will need a shop to install something as involved as a stage 3 setup and then there's not much money left after you complete the swap back to stock.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

gengo said:


> The theoretical $20K being dropped into this car is mostly not recoverable. It will also devalue the car. Your cost comparison does not take into account the fact that many people sell the car after a few years.
> 
> Example:
> TTRS Purchase price = $65K
> ...


*

You sir are correct! I am now embarrassed that I did not see this fact before. That is exactly what I missed.

Having said that, assuming one is going to mod almost any car, then this distinction pretty much goes away. 

Marty makes a great point too. In the past my mods were on less expensive vehicles and I maxed out at $10k in mods. After 3 years I was able to resell the modded vehicle for the price of a non-modded vehicle. If I get into the $20k sunk cost range and the vehicle is devalued more than normal, then I think I will avoid stage 3. Instead I may focus my money on things like suspension, IC, wheels and a little weight reduction. This type of modding seems to have less downside to it.*


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

I've found if you limit the mods to things that improve the handling and braking without trashing the ride it can add value when you sell. Start messing with the engine and you really cut down on potential buyers . Carl


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

cipsony said:


> Actually people are after the hp number and not the delta.
> 
> Basically you are saying that your dyno reads high the OEM figure so you relate to that value. What your dyno shows is what you plot. I say this is not the right way to publish data even though higher numbers sell better.
> 
> On the same logic I say the Loba unit makes 500 whp and actually I'm 100% sure that on your dyno in the same conditions my car will make at least that figure ... but it's not a correct one and is not reflecting the reality.


No what he's saying is... we publish what the car makes on our Dynapack Dyno. No fudging. As I tell Arin... "it is what it is." Take that as one of the most honest things you'll see. You can guestimate as much as you want from that given measured number, but it will be just that... a guess rather than a measured value. I don't play the crank hp game, because the engine isn't on an engine dyno... it's on a chassis dyno. Same reason you won't catch me quoting whp numbers from an engine dyno.


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

Marty said:


> I like the quantitative analysis, but I'd strip the mechanical mods off the car and resell those for at least 50% of what I bought them for. If the car residual shouldn't suffer if the engine and trans checks out to not have any problems (good compression, etc.).


Good point. I've had good luck selling parts on past cars. That said, I'm not sure how liquid the used aftermarket is for the TTRS, since the population is small. Also, some parts would make more sense to leave on the car, like an upgraded clutch.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

gengo said:


> Good point. I've had good luck selling parts on past cars. That said, I'm not sure how liquid the used aftermarket is for the TTRS, since the population is small. Also, some parts would make more sense to leave on the car, like an upgraded clutch.


At the price you would ask for a STG3 car, to make it even worth the sale, most would probably walk right by and purchase a 911... GTR... I would.


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## lude219 (Sep 26, 2012)

The TTRS is in a niche market. If you have quattro running through your veins and want to stand out with a 5 cyclinder car, then it's not so hard to see the value in a stage 3. For all other buyers out there, the RS wouldn't even be on their radar at that 70-80k for a used sports car, so good luck in selling your car with aftermarket parts.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

I will never buy a car with upgraded internals or which had a big turbo on it unless it would be much cheaper than the equivalent with the stock turbo. So for example: for a TT RS with a big turbo on it I would buy it only if it runs flawlessly and for 5000-10000 USD less than a stock TT RS.

I don't know how many of us would even consider buying such a car to start with. Many times, the owners will take the car back to stock and tell nothing to the potential client !


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> I will never buy a car with upgraded internals or which had a big turbo on it unless it would be much cheaper than the equivalent with the stock turbo. So for example: for a TT RS with a big turbo on it I would buy it only if it runs flawlessly and for 5000-10000 USD less than a stock TT RS.
> 
> I don't know how many of us would even consider buying such a car to start with. Many times, the owners will take the car back to stock and tell nothing to the potential client !


Lmao.

Because someone will really sell their highly modified car with 10's of thousand spent on it for 5-10k less than a stock car.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

why ever sell it? I'm starting a garage and the TT RS is my first purchase for that garage. Will I possibly sell it some day...sure...but nothing I am going do to it will have that in mind...everything I do to it will be for ME!


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

If I could trust myself to actually hold on to a car for a long time then the stage 3 proposition becomes more reasonable. I that case I would get to use up the potential value. However, I have never kept a fun car for more than 3 years. 

If I become financially secure enough to have a stable full of cars, then hell yeah the TTRS would be in the stable. Otherwise, I need a variety of horse to play with.


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

I'm hoping to keep this car 4 years. Historically, I also change out my cars at 2-3 years. Hoping the TTRS stays fun until 2017. (Wow, typing "2017" makes it feel super far into the future).

This plan will stay in place until I find a 450+hp car under


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

I also plan to keep the car for many years but I also remember how I felt when I first saw the tt mk1. I thought it was coming from the future --> Today though it just looks outdated.

I don't really know how I will look at the TT RS in 2-3 years or compared with the Audi Quattro (if it will ever be released).


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

cipsony said:


> My thoughts (what I believe and not necesarily what will happen):
> Turbo kit (turbo, wastegate, exhaust manifold, turbo-IC connecting pipe, turbo downpipe, turbo elbow, turbo connecting hoses, all connection seals ..., oil + filter, ecu upgrade, sparks) ~ 9000 USD
> IC - purchased with the kit (with a discount) ~ 1300 USD
> Clutch - purchased with the kit (with a discount) ~ 1800 USD
> ...


Looks like I was very very close on the power figures 
I failed with the price figures.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cipsony said:


> Looks like I was very very close on the power figures
> I failed with the price figures.


You were low on power and price.

The customer dynos will be up soon enough. This kit delivers.


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

This is the way APR messure power outputs at the wheels, no losses there.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

what do you mean no losses, no loss would be hooking an engine up direct

that dyno looks like an easy way of opening the door lol


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

tdi-bart said:


> what do you mean no losses, no loss would be hooking an engine up direct
> 
> that dyno looks like an easy way of opening the door lol


Tyres on the rolls.


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Their idea of wheel hp isn't comparable. They are connected to the hub and also disable the haldex and only the front wheels are used. When comparing the deltas between stock, they will also show the largest gains due to the lower transmission loss. I suppose % difference from stock is the only way to compare to other vendors.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

CarbonRS said:


> Their idea of wheel hp isn't comparable. They are connected to the hub and also disable the haldex and only the front wheels are used. When comparing the deltas between stock, they will also show the largest gains due to the lower transmission loss. I suppose % difference from stock is the only way to compare to other vendors.


Apr always compare from measured stock anyway? And they are okay ever concerned in the delta


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

They are ok?
380 whp on the APR website vs 300-320 whp tested by users on a different dyno.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

cipsony said:


> They are ok?
> 380 whp on the APR website vs 300-320 whp tested by users on a different dyno.


i still don't understand why you give a **** how one dyno compares to another. all you should be looking at on any dyno sheets is the difference between the current pull to the stock base line pull on THAT dyno.

everything else is just random.

i've seen a 400whp car on the mustang dyno i use do practically 500 on a dynojet moon dyno. 
great for e-penis competitions but has no actual bearing in real life.


it's obvious that you are plenty knowledgeable about cars from your reponses on this forum and have done way too much to your car to not get how this works, so all i can conclude is that you just feel the need to bitch about something. 

if that's the case please focus you attention on something that helps/matters/makes a difference.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

smack_ttrs said:


> i still don't understand why you give a **** how one dyno compares to another. all you should be looking at on any dyno sheets is the difference between the current pull to the stock base line pull on THAT dyno.
> 
> everything else is just random.
> 
> ...


- Many people that buy such a kit are not spending their time on forums or analyzing the data. Many may buy it because it says 650 bhp ... and who wouldn't want a 650 bhp car.
- Why would such a big VAG tuner go and purchase a dyno that inflates the figures more than any other dyno ?
- Why not re-calibrate the dyno so that it outputs 340bhp for the stock car and no one would have to calculate the differences, delta ...?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

cipsony said:


> - Why would such a big VAG tuner go and purchase a dyno that inflates the figures more than any other dyno ?


I was under the impression that hub dynos reported more repeatable and consistent numbers because you eliminate all of the variables that go in to strapping the car down on the dyno.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I was under the impression that hub dynos reported more repeatable and consistent numbers because you eliminate all of the variables that go in to strapping the car down on the dyno.


And... they're safer and much faster switching cars.

Our dyno is calibrated the way the manufacturer says to calibrate it. We do that because we also use it to measure the race cars. Those dyno runs HAVE to be correct. Grand-AM randomly dyno's cars and our sh1t has to be spot on or we can get disqualified.

If you want to compare to another dyno, we give the stock results we got from the car. You can apply the delta to a stock run from any brand/style of dyno and get within a couple percent. 

We've argued this to DEATH. Anybody that doesn't get it by now is just trolling. We publish our numbers and our methodology. If you want to repeat the test on your car/dyno, you can, and you'll get the same results.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

What is the estamted install cost for the full system inc the intercooler ?? Carl


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> If you want to compare to another dyno, we give the stock results we got from the car. You can apply the delta to a stock run from any brand/style of dyno and get within a couple percent.
> 
> We've argued this to DEATH. Anybody that doesn't get it by now is just trolling. We publish our numbers and our methodology. If you want to repeat the test on your car/dyno, you can, and you'll get the same results.


Agreed! APR has been very transparent here. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

carl44 said:


> What is the estamted install cost for the full system inc the intercooler ?? Carl


Have to check with your dealer. The price will vary significantly depending on their labor rate.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Have to check with your dealer. The price will vary significantly depending on their labor rate.


I dont mean to be offensive but that's real open ended answer..What is the range? How many hours for the install? Thanks carl


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

carl44 said:


> I dont mean to be offensive but that's real open ended answer..What is the range? How many hours for the install? Thanks carl


I've heard a range of 20-30 hours. Some shops are removing the engine to do the install because the couple hours needed to pull the engine is worth having the extra space to attach the HW. Alternatively, just the trans needs to be dropped out of the car.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

cipsony said:


> - Many people that buy such a kit are not spending their time on forums or analyzing the data. Many may buy it because it says 650 bhp ... and who wouldn't want a 650 bhp car.


lol anyone that drops 20k into their car without the proper research is doing it wrong...


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Marty said:


> I've heard a range of 20-30 hours. Some shops are removing the engine to do the install because the couple hours needed to pull the engine is worth having the extra space to attach the HW. Alternatively, just the trans needs to be dropped out of the car.


20-30X $95-$125=$1800-$3750 .carl


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Takes two days.

2x8hrs=16hrs


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-Speed-Worx-Presents-TT-RS-Build-Thread/page2

^Helpful pics/notes.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

carl44 said:


> I dont mean to be offensive but that's real open ended answer..What is the range? How many hours for the install? Thanks carl


The labor answer has to be open ended, because shops all charge different rates. 

For example, here's one offering a *FREE* install. They are a top notch shop too. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6123151


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-Speed-Worx-Presents-TT-RS-Build-Thread/page2
> 
> ^Helpful pics/notes.


Im a pretty fair mechanic I have a lift in my garage, the install is a big job. After looking at the install all i have to say is get someone who knows what their doing and preferably has done it before. There is always a learning curve! 16hrs for the install with a clutch and inner-cooler seems really fast..carl


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> The labor answer has to be open ended, because shops all charge different rates.
> 
> For example, here's one offering a *FREE* install. They are a top notch shop too.
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6123151


i'm pretty sure he wants to know how many HOURS of labour. not the cost. surely you can approximate. :thumbup:


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> i'm pretty sure he wants to know how many HOURS of labour. not the cost. surely you can approximate. :thumbup:


correct.carl


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