# Choosing a standalone??



## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

Aright we'll you've probably seen my 8v weber downdraft build thread. Well it's time to start my second project, thinking of going 16vT. Pretty clueless on which direction i should go in. What have people used for engine management on boosted applications? Some insight? Suggestions? Gonna start building the mechanical aspect of it. Kinda subconsciously putting aside the management part of the build lol. Pretty afraid of it all. But got in the mood of "Let's do this!" tonight hahaha thanks in advance


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Megasquirt without question. It's inexpensive, has great support and is flexible enough for anything.


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## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> Megasquirt without question. It's inexpensive, has great support and is flexible enough for anything.


It could manage boost? Would I be able to use my MSD ignition along with it?

A recommendation on which version to get my hands on?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

MS can handle boost control easily and an MSD as well.

Which version really depends on your budget. An MS1 V3.0 system would work fine, You would need to build the boost control circuit for it but that's easy and well documented. Depending on the amount of boost you plan on you might need to upgrade the onboard MAP sensor (~20 psi or 250kpa is what theh stock MAP is good for). If you can afford it, an MS3/3X combo can't be beat as it has enough I/O to make anybody happy.


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## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> MS can handle boost control easily and an MSD as well.
> 
> Which version really depends on your budget. An MS1 V3.0 system would work fine, You would need to build the boost control circuit for it but that's easy and well documented. Depending on the amount of boost you plan on you might need to upgrade the onboard MAP sensor (~20 psi or 250kpa is what theh stock MAP is good for). If you can afford it, an MS3/3X combo can't be beat as it has enough I/O to make anybody happy.


I don't really mind spending $$$ i got the time to spread everything apart, it's gonna be a super slow build. but i man i really need to be schooled on standalones lol you recommend the MS3/3x I'm guessing they have the DIY build and one that's assembled? And how would you go about tuning it? threw a module or laptop? both? hahaha thanks for helping me out prof:thumbup:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Snatcher said:


> I don't really mind spending $$$ i got the time to spread everything apart, it's gonna be a super slow build. but i man i really need to be schooled on standalones lol you recommend the MS3/3x I'm guessing they have the DIY build and one that's assembled? And how would you go about tuning it? threw a module or laptop? both? hahaha thanks for helping me out prof:thumbup:


Start out here: www.megamanual.com . And then continue here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html . Megasquirt is tuned with a laptop and tuning software. For MS3 your only option is Tuner Studio MS but that's ok it's what I would recommend anyhow.

And yes you can buy any megasquirt prebuilt or in kit form. (At least DIYAutotune sells them like that and that's the only place I get MS stuff)


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## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> Start out here: www.megamanual.com . And then continue here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html . Megasquirt is tuned with a laptop and tuning software. For MS3 your only option is Tuner Studio MS but that's ok it's what I would recommend anyhow.
> 
> And yes you can buy any megasquirt prebuilt or in kit form. (At least DIYAutotune sells them like that and that's the only place I get MS stuff)


Did some reading, my soldering skills aren't ace enough for this lol So i'll pretty much buy the built unit, buy the wiring harness, and wire up the sensors and the injectors pretty much? And tune from there?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you're ordering a pre-built unit it gets pretty simple. With MS3/3x all you'll need is a wideband and laptop and a usb cable to get rolling tuning it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Yeah that's about the way it goes. There's a good startup guide in the MS/Extra manuals that you'll want to read a couple of times. It's really not that horribly hard at all. I think I'm on install number 15 or 16 right now, a customers 79 280ZX. The factory wiring,and all of the factory sensors are junk ( broken connectors, green fungus in the harness 2 feet into the wires etc...) so we're gonna keep the old beast on the road with an MS. It should actually run better than stock when we are done.


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## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> If you're ordering a pre-built unit it gets pretty simple. With MS3/3x all you'll need is a wideband and laptop and a usb cable to get rolling tuning it.


guessing that white wire for data logging goes into the megasquirt lol




Prof315 said:


> Yeah that's about the way it goes. There's a good startup guide in the MS/Extra manuals that you'll want to read a couple of times. It's really not that horribly hard at all. I think I'm on install number 15 or 16 right now, a customers 79 280ZX. The factory wiring,and all of the factory sensors are junk ( broken connectors, green fungus in the harness 2 feet into the wires etc...) so we're gonna keep the old beast on the road with an MS. It should actually run better than stock when we are done.


Gotta get used to how the site is layed out, hurts mine eyes hahaha.
oooofta @fungus on wires, jeez. Bit thats pretty sick, what kind of ignition does it run?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Distributor with mechanical/vacuum advance. This one is going to be really easy we're just going to control fuel like the factory set up.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

or.. you could go with SDS (simple digital systems). All you have to do is install (not hard), read he manual (not that much reading and simple to understand) and tune it on the street with a AFR meter, also the system has its own controller that you can change the settings with so you don't need a laptop. It truly is simple and works great, sure it might not have all the bells and whistles but it is a very good system and the guys who build them are the tech guys who WILL answer your questions without hesitation and are there to help. 

Couple years back I built a vrT on SDS and it produced 350whp/350wtq at 14psi on pump 94 at 8.5:1... I tuned it on the street and when I went to dyno it at Kneetronics he pretty much said it was good to go, all he did was fine tune the idle and smooth out one very small flat spot between 3500-4000 and I was off. I'm sure you could squeeze out a few more but this was a street driven car so it was more then enough and ran flawlessly.

I'm not knocking MS by any means, it's a wonderful system and I'm tuning one shortly but the amount of reading and understanding you have to do usually steers SEM newbs away.


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## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> or.. you could go with SDS (simple digital systems). All you have to do is install (not hard), read he manual (not that much reading and simple to understand) and tune it on the street with a AFR meter, also the system has its own controller that you can change the settings with so you don't need a laptop. It truly is simple and works great, sure it might not have all the bells and whistles but it is a very good system and the guys who build them are the tech guys who WILL answer your questions without hesitation and are there to help.
> 
> Couple years back I built a vrT on SDS and it produced 350whp/350wtq at 14psi on pump 94 at 8.5:1... I tuned it on the street and when I went to dyno it at Kneetronics he pretty much said it was good to go, all he did was fine tune the idle and smooth out one very small flat spot between 3500-4000 and I was off. I'm sure you could squeeze out a few more but this was a street driven car so it was more then enough and ran flawlessly.
> 
> I'm not knocking MS by any means, it's a wonderful system and I'm tuning one shortly but the amount of reading and understanding you have to do usually steers SEM newbs away.



hahaahaha agreed on the part of the amount of reading steers noobs like me away, but i'll check out sds as well once i can comprehend some basics of megasquirt


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

Scroll down for the PDF :thumbup:

http://www.sdsefi.com/program.html

Also SDS is used in aircraft so that should tell you something about reliability. :beer:


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## Snatcher (Apr 3, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> Scroll down for the PDF :thumbup:
> 
> http://www.sdsefi.com/program.html
> 
> Also SDS is used in aircraft so that should tell you something about reliability. :beer:



hahaha gonna need :beer: for this now lol


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> Scroll down for the PDF :thumbup:
> 
> http://www.sdsefi.com/program.html
> 
> Also SDS is used in aircraft so that should tell you something about reliability. :beer:


Yeah it says they are willing to assume way more liability than anybody else. SDS is ok but keypad tuning is miserable. And it is what it says.....Simple. Not a lot of room for expansion, plus NO AUTOTUNE! Tuner Studio MS has the best autotune around. It works, 35mpg at 85 mph and it took 20 minuted of driving to achieve. The only thing I did was hit the start button and the save button.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

One of the first big SDS users/tuners for VW's uses Megasquirt now.. that should tell you something.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

Prof315 said:


> Yeah it says they are willing to assume way more liability than anybody else. SDS is ok but keypad tuning is miserable. And it is what it says.....Simple. Not a lot of room for expansion, plus NO AUTOTUNE! Tuner Studio MS has the best autotune around. It works, 35mpg at 85 mph and it took 20 minuted of driving to achieve. The only thing I did was hit the start button and the save button.


I agree, the keypad is tedious but its not like you have to use it all the time, once your done tuning you simply unplug it. My PP SEM has auto tune and it's amazing, go for a drive and it does all the work. Yes, SDS does have tradeoffs for it simplicity.



need_a_VR6 said:


> One of the first big SDS users/tuners for VW's uses Megasquirt now.. that should tell you something.


What I get from that is that person needed more then what SDS could offer, and wanted something affordable because systems like MoTech, AEM, DTA etc.. are very expensive and don't have the community support like MS does.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

He heard good things and wanted to give it a shot and was very impressed.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> He heard good things and wanted to give it a shot and was very impressed.


I'm glad "he" liked it. 

I do have a question for you though, I'm about to order a MS3X, what ignition driver should be used with a 034Motorsport 4cyl wasted spark coil? I want to use it. I'm ordering from DIYauotune, can you give me a reason why I should order from you? I like the fact that your on here, respond to questions and seem very knowledgeable when it comes to MS. :beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You need to use a IGBT like the BIP373, one per spark output, and it's not standard on MS3/3x.



> I'm ordering from DIYauotune, can you give me a reason why I should order from you? I like the fact that your on here, respond to questions and seem very knowledgeable when it comes to MS.


That's pretty much the reason. I offer startup/tech/troubleshooting support as part of my package. Some vendors offer some amount of that, others offer none. It really depends on what you need/want and how fast you want a question answered or an issue addressed.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You need to use a IGBT like the BIP373, one per spark output, and it's not standard on MS3/3x.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much the reason. I offer startup/tech/troubleshooting support as part of my package. Some vendors offer some amount of that, others offer none. It really depends on what you need/want and how fast you want a question answered or an issue addressed.


PM sent


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

Paul and Vad are both good people. Both have been on vortex for a very long time and are very helpful. I used vad becasue he is local and active in the vw comunity here so I support him. I would rather spend money the people who help the comunity in return...


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

There are many other options though... Some people find MS lacking in refinement. ViPec, VEMS (And Lugtronics), 034 are, in my opinion, better options, though I will grant that MS is very versatile. They are a bit more expensive, but to an extent, you pay for what you get.


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## slmvwtattoos (Nov 3, 2010)

i went through this issue of choosing what sem to go with and after looking into them all and talking to alot of people i went with ms from paul. absolutly best choice i could have made. simple to wire simple to tune with autotune but pauls base map was pretty close to begin with . and when u contact paul hes gets back to you right away. definalty worth every penny having paul build it and set it up :thumbup::thumbup: couldnt be happier with it . cant wait to swap heads and turbos now


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

look around more before you go pulling the trigger on the MS. 

there are other systems out there that may fit your needs better...

like the post above Vems or Vipec are nice,, u could even find like an autronic used on the vortex for cheap now a days.. 

but bottom line what it comes down to, is who is tuning your car... the standalone is only as good as the person tuning it..


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You need to use a IGBT like the BIP373, one per spark output, and it's not standard on MS3/3x.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much the reason. I offer startup/tech/troubleshooting support as part of my package. Some vendors offer some amount of that, others offer none. It really depends on what you need/want and how fast you want a question answered or an issue addressed.


Thats it in a nutshell.........
Paul will help and get back to you with a quickness......even when the application is redickulas....
trust me i know...Paul Never fails....
and nothing is cooler than tuner studio...period:beer:


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

I just checked the price for that SDS, and it seems a bit on the high side, compared with what you can buy MS related. You can get a full package for under the price of the SDS "simple" package (no map sensor, etc.).

From my reading before choosing which to buy, I went MS and I do not regret it. Still haven't had the time to install it on the car, but the building was fantastic (OP, I don't have soldering skills, but was able to build mine, so it's easy :laugh: http://eight620vt.tk )

need_a_VR6 and Prof315 are (in my opinion) the best guys to help you on this forum.

Kudos for them!!
:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

HidRo said:


> I just checked the price for that SDS, and it seems a bit on the high side, compared with what you can buy MS related. You can get a full package for under the price of the SDS "simple" package (no map sensor, etc.).
> 
> From my reading before choosing which to buy, I went MS and I do not regret it. Still haven't had the time to install it on the car, but the building was fantastic (OP, I don't have soldering skills, but was able to build mine, so it's easy :laugh: http://eight620vt.tk )
> 
> ...


Well Thank You!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Salsa GTI said:


> Paul will help and get back to you with a quickness......even when the application is redickulas....
> trust me i know...Paul Never fails....


 Yeah that last one was a bit retarded:thumbup: 

Thanks guys for the support.


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## 2ToneTurbo (Feb 15, 2007)

Salsa GTI said:


> Thats it in a nutshell.........
> Paul will help and get back to you with a quickness......even when the application is redickulas....
> trust me i know...Paul Never fails....
> and nothing is cooler than tuner studio...period:beer:


 I definitly can vouch for paul (needavr6) everytime I've shot him a email within the hour he responds with the correct info. Definitly a good guy


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## vdubfiend (Oct 16, 2001)

i havent even purchased a system yet and Paul answers all my questions.

Great guy that knows his stuff!!!


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