# why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in?



## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

I hve reading tons of conversions here in this forum as essentially the idea is sound - take a transverse FWD engine and trans and put it into the rear.
Toyota has done it with the MRS, taking the engine from the Celica and Renault has done a V6..same as the NSX
then I see the conversions here as the feedback is bad.
so what is the main reason?
1) insufficient bracing for the engine?
2) Lack of double wishbone for the rear to handle engine/suspension movement 
3) Lack of chassis structure reinforce to deal with engine squat?
I am seriously going to try this - have tubular chassis development and equipment, CNC machine at hand with R&D.
Comtemplating going to dry sump with INA's kit as lowering the engine as low as possible 
Please contribute your opinions. and to show how serious I am here are some pixs of the current built engine - what parts - read my sig below.



























_Modified by robingohtt at 12:59 PM 6-8-2009_


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## -Khaos- (Dec 22, 2003)

I've been here forever and I've never seen a mid/rear custom thread.
I've seen some lotus or other kit cars running a 1.8T in the back... And they had nothing but positive things to say.


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

do a search and type in mid engine..everything from golfs to sirrocos, mate.
ah..lotus is different..they are already mid engine rwd..it's a engine swap..yeah..that is such a match made in heaven.. so back to my big question











_Modified by robingohtt at 1:12 PM 6-8-2009_


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## -Khaos- (Dec 22, 2003)

*Re: (robingohtt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *robingohtt* »_do a search and type in mid engine..everything from golfs to sirrocos, mate.
ah..lotus is different..they are already mid engine rwd..it's a engine swap..yeah..that is such a match made in heaven.. so back to my big question










I ran that search in the 1.8T forums, found nothing. So it's not _this_ forum, but VWVortex in general (which has a plethora of sub forums). That's a problem because it's clearly not an issue specific to the 1.8T tech forum or the engine itself, and I doubt you'll find much help here. We deal more with the engine than mounting (I think there's an engine swap forum?) and suspension (also a sub forum for that).
As you've hinted at it's more than likely a chassis problem, as it was not designed to be RWD. Structural rigidity in the front with weaker/softer suspension on the rear might help...


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (-Khaos-)*

Box shaped overweight car - Torsion Beam Rear = $$$$$ RWD mid engine conversion. 
most people are smart/sane enough to move on. The chassis development required is just huge. Getting it in and rolling under it's own power is one things lots of those in magazines and on the internet. Getting it to drive well and run fast lap times is another issue.
It's cheaper/easier to start from scratch and build a tube frame car. 
I did get a ride in a MK2 RWD mid engine conversion with ~ 400hp. it was undriveable at best. Didn't go straight, didn't turn. Needed lot's of setup time to get the suspension fully sorted. Springs/shocks all need to be custom. it's a tons of work. And when you are done with the back end you need to put $3-4K into the front end because the suspension on these cars is awful front and rear.


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

for this project, if it materializes.
both front and rear have to go double wishbone setups.
we might be thinking for stealing parts from an R8 parts bin
tubular chassis has been done before by the team to develop a F1 car for research - it's a coversion kit that we are trying to see if it can be done. a hybrid between a unibody and tubular chassis.
here the issue of a complete tubular chassis..fitting panels and keep all the different parts intact and fitting are really PITA..
CNC spindles, double wishbone setup, tubular arms, etc..a lot of work..that I know..it's a big team..not just 2 or 3 bodyshop guys
I am trying to list down the issues which we will potential face..
thanks for yr feedback enginerd..cheers!

_Modified by robingohtt at 1:58 PM 6-8-2009_


_Modified by robingohtt at 2:00 PM 6-8-2009_


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

I wish someone would give us some constructive comments on why it goes so bad..these conversions


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

khaos
projects
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3277830
http://www.customobsessions.co...art=0
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4238332
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4265100
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=64
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3445966
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2868311
http://smg.photobucket.com/alb...20gti/
golf
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2247645
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2247645
http://www.bencustomfabric.com...x.php
http://www.bencustomfabric.com...id=84
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2400962


beetle
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1



_Modified by robingohtt at 2:33 PM 6-8-2009_


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## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

*Re: why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in? (robingohtt)*

mid-engine and 1.8t always reminds me of this

_Quote, originally posted by *proalloy* »_The 1.8T was the obvious choice really- Its pretty bullett proof and easy to make good power......
The OEM motor is the Rover K series- 118 - 190 bhp at best!
I have run the 1.8T for 10,000 miles at 330 BHP and it was pretty good!
Here's a more up to date picture after the work we did this weekend...










_Quote, originally posted by *proalloy* »_yep this one..


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## Mike.Mike. (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in? (Imola Yellow GTi)*

link to the thread with those last few pics?


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## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

*Re: why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in? (Mike.Mike.)*

Search > member name proalloy under archive
looks like a shop that came onto the boards for some feedback and posted some pics of their elise 1.8t project
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX2pFA_DNuc


_Modified by Imola Yellow GTi at 9:36 PM 6-8-2009_


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## 20vpolo (Oct 2, 2008)

I have a Mk3 polo coupe that is mid engined and RWD. Its now approx 500 bhp runing a hybrid gt3076 sem manifold Rc 750cc injectors etc.


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## saltymkiv (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in? (robingohtt)*

just wait for the VW bluesport haha


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: (20vpolo)*

20V polo..
any pics? We want to see how did u brace yr engine.
so any comments on the handling? was it built for track purposes or for recreation?
our objective is for performance


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## UntouchableGTI (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (robingohtt)*

I seen/read a thread about a 1.8bt in a rwd converted polo, ive got the link somewhere, ill look for it, its sick.


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

there was a video on youtube of a rear/mid engine in what appeared to be a 20th a long time ago.


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## 20vpolo (Oct 2, 2008)

*Re: (robingohtt)*

My car uses a mk 4 golf subframe that has just been cut from the golf ad welded in the back of the polo, the engine sits on Vibratech mounts
Handling is good if you get the suspension set up right. I run Koni adjustable coilovers with FK springs and Neuspeed anti roll bars. On the limit it is a little unpredictable but that is when you really push it.
I mainly use my car for drag racing now so I have found a setting that works well for me so I usually let the settings alone.
One thing is that over 160 mph there is not much steering with the front being so light !
When I got the car it was built for recreation but now its is much more a performance car with full cage stripped interior etc but is still road legal.
I preforms well as a drag car running 1.7 60fts on street radials and at the moment running very low 11 sec 1/4s. Hoping for 10s very soon and then I will be using the nitrous system and moving over to slicks.
I will upload some pics soon.


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: (20vpolo)*

thanks 20vpolo
we are thinking of making a new bolt on subframe for the rear engine placement. with double wishbone rear setup
front is also a subframe bolt-on withe double wishbone.
famous issues with mid-engine RWD cars is anti-dive and ant-squat needs to be built in - that is our engineering challenge
also engine cooling. If u do a search, sometime ago, Audi burned down their own twin turbo V8 R8 prototype - hence the new V10 engine as they could not find a viable cooling method to dissipate heats from twin turbos


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *robingohtt* »_thanks 20vpolo
also engine cooling. If u do a search, sometime ago, Audi burned down their own twin turbo V8 R8 prototype - hence the new V10 engine as they could not find a viable cooling method to dissipate heats from twin turbos


wow, i wish they wouldve left it the tdi instead of the V10. not that i can afford either at the moment, but its kinda cool to have a diesel super car.


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## snubbs64 (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (theswoleguy)*

I can't even imagine getting into a project like this, but it sounds like a lot of fun and would be awesome if you can pull it off how you hope to (so it actually performs and isn't just a rolling "look what i can do" car). Haha i have no help for you, only that this is something i would love to see!

_Quote, originally posted by *theswoleguy* »_
but its kinda cool to have a diesel super car.

yeah i'm with you on that, i really wanted to see it come as a tdi. I love diesel and think it needs more street cred for performance that the r8 tdi could have gave.


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *snubbs64* »_I can't even imagine getting into a project like this, but it sounds like a lot of fun and would be awesome if you can pull it off how you hope to (so it actually performs and isn't just a rolling "look what i can do" car). Haha i have no help for you, only that this is something i would love to see!
yeah i'm with you on that, i really wanted to see it come as a tdi. I love diesel and think it needs more street cred for performance that the r8 tdi could have gave.


o man you know it josh, TDI R8 wouldve been sick alone, then to get it chipped wouldve been mosterous. it was going to be the R10 or R12 TDI like the le mans right?


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## The Veg (May 25, 2006)

If I win the lottery, I'd like to have somebody who knows what they're doing build me an original-design very small, light, low and close-to-the-ground, 2-seat mid-engined sports car with a 1.8T and whatever other bits salvaged from the donor-car they can throw in. I figure keep the weight under 2400 lbs, no luxuries just light and simple, and keep the engine-mods a bit conservative for outstanding performance balanced with real-world driveability. What fun such a car would be!


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## UntouchableGTI (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (The Veg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Veg* »_If I win the lottery, I'd like to have somebody who knows what they're doing build me an original-design very small, light, low and close-to-the-ground, 2-seat mid-engined sports car with a 1.8T and whatever other bits salvaged from the donor-car they can throw in. I figure keep the weight under 2400 lbs, no luxuries just light and simple, and keep the engine-mods a bit conservative for outstanding performance balanced with real-world driveability. What fun such a car would be!

really, cause if i won the lottery I would be smart and give my VW away and buy say an R8, GT3, or anyother number of exotics, not waste my time on stupid vws


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Shelsley T2 run by Rob Carvell and Jabbasport did well in the mid-engine lotus championship.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (UntouchableGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UntouchableGTI* »_
really, cause if i won the lottery I would be smart and give my VW away and buy say an R8, GT3, or anyother number of exotics, not waste my time on stupid vws










That's pretty much the answer to the OP's thread and all the other ones he created with the same title.


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## bwell01 (Oct 17, 2004)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *S_FLA_VDUBVR6* »_Get to work.. 









































and post videos!! nothing cooler then seeing a RWD Volkswagen doing donuts.. 









jesus!!!


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4183834


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *18T_BT* »_http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4183834


i love this! i want one


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: (bwell01)*

that purple siccoro is what we are aiming at..with a double wishbone and a well brace-engine. that is the way to go.
except front suspension could be double wishbone as well.
anyone know the guy who did that? is he in this forum?
big thanks mate for putting up the pixs http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
understand the skepticism here.
looks guys. I said I would build a track engine as as the pictures show, I have (short of a dry sump) engaged the worshop to do just that
I am just finding out for the team if a mid-engine audi tt is a good project - and these are engineers-in-training and experienced guys who have built F1-style tubular cars with kawasaki's, not your workshop guys...the workshop guys built the engine from their years of experience.
might not materialise but that is why I am here for - to find out the issues and present them.



_Modified by robingohtt at 11:24 AM 6-10-2009_


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## The Veg (May 25, 2006)

*Re: (UntouchableGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UntouchableGTI* »_
really, cause if i won the lottery I would be smart and give my VW away and buy say an R8, GT3, or anyother number of exotics, not waste my time on stupid vws









Well, I might buy an exotic too- but they are all big and heavy and overdone these days. What I'd really like to have is a very lightweight, low, compact runabout...more like what sports cars used to be...and nobody makes anything like that now. Light, simple, nothing there except for what needs to be. In a package like that, you don't need a gazillion horsepower to scare yourself silly.
But this concept is completely lost today...


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in? (Imola Yellow GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Imola Yellow GTi* »_mid-engine and 1.8t always reminds me of this



This just gave me a boner - man thats sweet and nice build racesetup, wehooo thats freaking awesome, got any more pics


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## MightyDSM (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (The Veg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Veg* »_
Well, I might buy an exotic too- but they are all big and heavy and overdone these days. What I'd really like to have is a very lightweight, low, compact runabout...more like what sports cars used to be...and nobody makes anything like that now. Light, simple, nothing there except for what needs to be. In a package like that, you don't need a gazillion horsepower to scare yourself silly.
But this concept is completely lost today...









Sounds like you want a Lotus...


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## MightyDSM (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (MightyDSM)*

To OP:
I don't have anything useful to contribute, but best wishes with that and post some pix of the work in progress http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

exactly.
We want to build a lightweight mid-engine RWD racecar/ production car concept.
double wishbones for front and back. lightweight alloy suspension components.
kerb weight 1100kg
powered by a mid-engine tuned 1.8T engine (ported to 2.1) 
a lotus is great but frankly, in stock form, it's expensive to afford and not every powerful (the 1.8T conversion is cool but but stock) and can't carry much...same complain with the MR2/ MRS. 
the TT size, once a long flat tank is mounted in the front allows a big basket in the front...more space than a porsche 911 based on initial measurements.
we have to do a concept and a prototype. and a racing car (for clubsports level racing not stripped down like a full LeMans, DTM racecar)
lots of work and because we do have a team, we are evaluating this project as a whole.
longintudinal versus transverse trans..
apparently we might not have have space for a longitudinal trans like a porsche



_Modified by robingohtt at 5:45 AM 6-12-2009_


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (robingohtt)*

so are you building a race car, or building a street car? 
on a race car who cares about storage space. 
I can tell you that building your own mid engine car will not be a street car. The heat and noise from the engine is unbelievable, and a tin cover won't get the noise out. 
buy a lotus exige and be done with it. You can spend 50 grand building a mid engine tt and when you are done it's worth 15 grand, and still won't drive like the lotus. It will still be heavy (steel everywhere) - the weight distribution will still suck (no CAD design distribution of mass) unless you have some very good suspension engineers it's unlikely to handle 
It's simply a bad idea unless your goal is to blow money


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## UntouchableGTI (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (The Veg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Veg* »_ What I'd really like to have is a very lightweight, low, compact runabout...more like what sports cars used to be...and nobody makes anything like that now. Light, simple, nothing there except for what needs to be.


You sir are very clueless. lets kick ur statement in the nuts.
1. Very lightweight- Curb weight on a mk4 gti is 32xxlbs, not light at all
2. Low- You dont need a fast car if ur worried about being low
3. Nothing out there like that now- hmmm lets see, lotus, porsche, FC and FD Rx7, RX8 (kinda), mustangs and camaros (rwd and the almost the same weight with way more parts and support), supras, blah blah blah....u get the point

_Quote, originally posted by *The Veg* »_
But this concept is completely lost today...









Yup, noone gets the concept, kinda like u dont get reality


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

thanks pointing something out..the noise from the engine.
we intend to build a racecar for testing and as a prototype and as
production car if it is successful so we have to take it all into consideration from the beginining
I think I know how much it will cost - double of what I estimate now for whatever I can think of. 
the point is it's a proposal for a engineering project - CAD, CNC machine and tubular tubes, etc.
alignment is very important and retaining the original chassis is essential.
the point is - this is a engineering project - not a " I can afford a aluminum chassis car Lotus Exige or Porker or an exotic.."
I think that is missing the point.
and yr point of a steel chassis being heavier with more steel is valid..even if the entire exhaust is removed and replaced with one third and tubular steel..it's still going to be heavy.


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

ariel atom


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

yes, yes....noble...Lotus..ferrari, gumpert apollo, Honda NSX..
I am not exactly clueless about this.. : )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...icles


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## The Veg (May 25, 2006)

*Re: (UntouchableGTI)*

Sorry to disagree with you.
If I was building it, it would be built LIGHT, not built like just another heavy VW. My idea wouldn't even use the VW body- it would be a purpose-built mid-engined runabout probably built on a spaceframe, with the lightweight bodywork serving little purpose beyond aerodynamics and keeping the bugs off me. It might vaguely resemble the current offerings from Lotus, but would be more pure-sportscar than they are.
It would have no leather, no A/C, no sat-nav, no luxuries at all beyond maybe a radio.
It would have just what it needs to go like a scalded puppy and handle like F1, and that's all it would have.
Nobody makes anything like that. Today's fast cars try WAY too hard to be luxurious. And that is the painful reality.
Cheers mate, let's not get insulting. We each have our own ideas and tastes. You'll notice that I have not said bad things about anybody else's ideas here. I was merely commenting; sorry my own ideas that do not affect you are so horrible.


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

thanks for yr comments..The Veg
u have a valid point. 
However, the idea IS to use a VW/ audi body and modularly add structures (lightweight ones) to add more superior suspension components like front and rear wishbones and a engine bracket.
so far, using lightweight components and stripping heavy body panels, and a host of 30 parts, we have reduced 200kg..and we still have AC..so the new weight is 1.2tons.
after removing the entire length of the exhaust, and putting a lightweight one, and removing a bit more, we are aiming to have a kerb weight of 1.1 tons before we add the engine bracket and suspension components above..the question is how much will these NEW components add. 
And you mentioned why a VW body and not not use aluminum? a chassis is expensive to manufacture in large scale, and weld especially aluminium chassis
and a new chassis cost to crash test under NCAP will be very high
ASF is still very new, ..look at BMW..they still dont have it. It is also difficult to repair a full aluminum body
and most of the audi's and VWs still dont have it either..even the Mk6 golf is still predominantly steel chassis..
the only Audi cars are R8 (full ASF), Audi TT Mk2 (front ASF, and some floor plan components aluminum, rear steel)
The whole entire project is a feasibility and production study and it will generate a prototype
We build a prototype, use and reuse VAG components and see if we can come out of new model/ range.
think Yes! roadster, Gumpert Apollo, but without the fancy prices..
wait..think VW Blue Sport. cost effective, lightweight, focused, more practical than an MR2/ Lotus. 
and you get the idea
THe VW BlueSport will most probably be steel chassis given the cost and pricing objectives as it is postioned below Porsche. Unless VW can reduce ASF manufacturing to such a wide scale that they can compete directly with Lotus.
why do you think Porsche wahted to buy Audi/ VW. For profit, yep. For ASF..most definitely.
Imagine a new model 911 turbo weighing only at 1.4 tons (with all leather an luxuries) or a 1.1 ton Cayman.





_Modified by robingohtt at 1:59 PM 6-12-2009_


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

Heart of the Ariel Atom is the large diameter, but light weight, tubular steel chassis forming the main structural component of the car. 
lightweight steel is still feasible


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

http://www.autoevolution.com/n....html
goodbye VW mid-engine blue sport


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## Bobcdn (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: (robingohtt)*










http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
Here are some pics of the Artega- it is similar to how the Smyth Performance car is being built.


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: why do mid-engine conversions do so bad? Experts please chip in? (robingohtt)*

Mid Rear Drive issues relating to the original post

Toyota MRS is a girly car, with a front wheel drive engine supplementing as an actual drive train for a performance vehicle. 
Renault V6- Europe only= issue. 
NSX-No issues fast and superb. 
realistically though why use a front wheel drive engine in a serious performance vehicle, not a completely bad idea for a race car if you re-engineer the entire drive train aside from the engine itself.


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## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

someone did it at show n go this past season... guys were taking pictures and everything of it... i agree to the noise.. he just had sheet metal welded around to separate the engine from the two front seats... that had to be annoying...


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