# n00b Megasquirt User with n00b Megasquirt Question



## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Hey guys,

Had my MK2 for a few months now and I need to replace some seals on my distributor so I'm going to have to reset my ignition timing. I've downloaded the software package off of diyautotune.com here and have the usb to serial adapter and I'm ready to go! But I just want to ask a bunch of (what I'm sure are) n00b questions so that I don't do something wrong and mess with my setup. Currently it is it tip top shape tuned really well by the PO and his mechanic/megasquirt guy (other than needing some cold start tuning).

What I would like to do first is load my car in megatune and immediately save it as my 'oh s***, what did I just do!' template, can I do that if I just plug in and save? I'd just like to know that simply by plugging in, I won't mess with anything. I think I'll start to know more about what I'm looking at once I can cruise around megatune.

Thanks!


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Yes you can do that, but you'll need to create the profile and configure megatune to allow it to connect to the MS unit. Or the better route is to buy a license for TunerStudio and allow it to auto detect the MS and save it that way. And the bonus is that Tunerstudio is waaaay better with the VE Analyze for tuning.

And when you pull the dizzy, you'll have to re-sync the dizzy/timing, but that should be fairly easy.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

create the profile and configure in megatune... is that fairly straight forward when I get in there? or do I need to do that first?

Resync the timing, do you mean physically rotating it till it's timed right? I've taken it off and put it back on to 'as close as possible' to where it was and it seems to be driving and starting more or less the same. thanks!

and I've heard good things about tunerstudio, other than it costs money  I'd like to see if I can get megatune to work for me...


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

fakename said:


> create the profile and configure in megatune... is that fairly straight forward when I get in there? or do I need to do that first?
> 
> Resync the timing, do you mean physically rotating it till it's timed right? I've taken it off and put it back on to 'as close as possible' to where it was and it seems to be driving and starting more or less the same. thanks!
> 
> and I've heard good things about tunerstudio, other than it costs money  I'd like to see if I can get megatune to work for me...


Actually You can get Tuner Studio Lite for free. You just don't get all the bell and wistles such as VeAnalyze live, customizable dashes and the trigger logger. MS2/Extra users running current release or beta firmware and MS3 users have no choice. Don't waste your time with Megatune.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

if its already running fine just hook up with tunerstudio and save as, like you mentioned, then lock the spark timing to 6* and resync with the timing light.
unlock the timing and drive :thumbup:


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Thanks guys, I took your advice and just downloaded tunerstudio and MAN! it seems so straightforward and easy to setup. So thanks a lot for that! Now, I just have to become smart enough to make decent sense of it. First being:

V.C.G: you mentioned to lock the spark timing. Is that the same as trigger angle? Fixed angle? My trigger angle is set to 60* and fixed to -10* (which I think means it's not -10, it's just referring to how it's mapped on the spark table?). By locking it, do you mean to just change the fixed to 6* so that it doesn't use the map?

Also, I've only briefly looked at it, but I'm not seeing any clear markings on my flywheel for when I'm using my timing light and seemingly nothing on my timing belt either, am I going about this wrong? My bentley doesn't have an o2a so I don't know if it's different or if it's just hard to see..


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

fakename said:


> By locking it, do you mean to just change the fixed to 6* so that it doesn't use the map?
> 
> Also, I've only briefly looked at it, but I'm not seeing any clear markings on my flywheel for when I'm using my timing light and seemingly nothing on my timing belt either, am I going about this wrong? My bentley doesn't have an o2a so I don't know if it's different or if it's just hard to see..


That is correct about locking the timing, then you just set it for 6* BTDC. As for the 02A I do not know.

BTW, most n00bs wouldn't have gotten the "locking the timing" thing without a lot of explanation.:thumbup::beer:


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

ps2375 said:


> most n00bs wouldn't have gotten the "locking the timing" thing without a lot of explanation.:thumbup::beer:


Thanks! It's nice to not get the ":facepalm: treatment" which I so frequently deserve.

Still having a hard time searching about how to read my flywheel timing though. 16v with an 02a if anyone has any thoughts.

I can't see it but I can feel that there is a mark on the bell housing in the middle with the plug removed. Once I lock the timing, do I hit the flywheel with the light and try to get the mark on the FW in the middle too? Am I physically rotating the dist to do this or am I adjusting it in TS?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Moving the dist to set the motor at the "locked" 6*.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I dont think the 02a has anything but the tdc mark. Use a dialback light or just set fixed to 0.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Ah great, that's what I thought and figured I should do but couldn't find a thread that supported it. My light doesn't have any special features so I'll just lock it to 0*. Thanks guys!


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Thanks again for your help guys, won't be the last time. Which reminds me... 

I'm starting to tackle my cold start and have been making slight adjustments to my WUE and PW in the warmup wizard. I would like to just increase my warmup enrichment %'s by 5's at specific morning temps (around 60* lately) until I start to notice some positive changes and then use that to form a basic linear map for other temps. This seems to me to be an easy way to determine if it is indeed more WUE that I need before getting into changing pulse widths. How ridiculous/genius does this sound to you guys who actually know what you're doing? Do I risk doing bad bad things by steadily increasing my fuel? From what I've read on other forums, when it comes to cold start fuel consumption-go big or go home! Does that sound right?

Also, didn't know if I should start a new thread for this seeing as I am still a n00b MS user and consider this a n00b question. I have screenshots of my tables and engine info too if that helps you help me. Thanks!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Two tips:

1- warmup and cranking pulsewidths are generally nonlinear

2- fuel, more of it

Start off getting the main ve table tuned. Then your warm idle pulsewidth plus 20% is a good warm cranking number. Double that at 50 and triple that plus some at 20 and 4x at -40  

For warmup just get past cranking and add fuel until afrs are in a good range. 

It will take lots of tries but its generally simple. You can even leave your wbo2 "on" through a cold start if you use a separate power source (I use a bemch supy but a jump box works).


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Non linear, gotcha.

VE table is def tuned but I'm not seeing a warm idle pulse width anywhere. That's not the pulse width at 160* on my cranking/priming table, is it? When I'm driving I notice the pulse width closer to 2ms when warm and idling but can't seem to find that figure on any table.

Here are some screenshots of what I'm working with to point me in the right direction:

Pic 1









Pic 2


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

That would be the "After start enrichment" or the "Warmup wizard" and they are in %.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah, but need_a was talking about my warm idle PW and using that to map the rest of my pulse widths. Is that somewhere in those pics or is that simply my observed PW when my car is warm and idling? I suppose it would be nice to get the exact number because I think it fluctuates a bit while the car's idling...

If my PWs are seemingly where they should be, would my next course of action be to increase the WUE's?

Also, any red flags with my pics? I'd be hoping for a "Hey, your (fill in the blank) is way to (low? high?) you should really tune (more? less?) of that!"


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

That might depend upon what code you are running, whether you see PW or % for WUE. I only see what you see with MS1 and extra code.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh, I see what you're saying. So some of you see your WUE's listed as pulse widths rather than percentages? I am running MS1 so maybe I can only see them as percentages?

So I suppose the same calculations apply that need_a was talking about, would my 'warm idle PW' then be the 100%?Yikes, so my -40* WUE would be 400%? I think I just answered my own question...



need_a_VR6 said:


> 2- fuel, more of it
> 
> Start off getting the main ve table tuned. Then your warm idle pulsewidth plus 20% is a good warm cranking number. Double that at 50 and triple that plus some at 20 and 4x at -40


So can I determine what that warm idle pulse width is with MS1? n00bs a little confused


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Look at the pw gauge with the car idling smoothly.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Cool thanks,

My PW at warm idle is 2.3. So a good warm cranking PW would be 2.76. At 50* would be 5.52. But right now I'm cranking 7.4 at 60* so should I lower it closer to 6 ms? Could having a PW too high keep my car from immediately turning over?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

enough to stop it from cranking? no, but maybe enough to stop it from firing off and running right away


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you notice you need more idle bypass air as you add fuel to keep it running, try removing fuel and see what it does


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

hmmm... I do usually have to give it throttle for it to ultimately turn over. The first few cranks, throttle doesn't make a difference, but once I crank it for the 3rd time, a little throttle gets it going. But I just tried this morning decreasing the PW's to around 6ms for 60* and 80* (it was at 70* this morning), and it didn't make a difference. Although, my ignition switch, which has been giving me problems, died again while I was at it and when I jumped the starter and solenoid, it fired up with some left hand throttle. But his was already after a few cranks which is usually when it fires. Why is that? Why would it fire after 3 cranks and not the first? Is there left over, unburned fuel in the cylinders from the 1st two cranks or something, enough to turn it over? 

Anyway, so I'm going to replace my ign switch today and hope that tomorrow that better connection magically solves all of my problems (I just hope that whatever keeps it from cranking actually IS my ignition switch!). But most likely, I'll just be starting over again with one more thing checked off of the to do list.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

try a different setting on the priming pulses, from "always" to "twice".


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Alright, new switch and now I'm rockin... still have the same cranking issues but at least it's cranking again now  

Tried changing priming pulse from power up to 'twice,' but didn't seem to change anything. Good suggestion though. 

On cranking, are my pulse widths the only thing that affect it? Does WUE or ASE have any affect on getting it to turn over, or are they just what they say they are, for a post started-warming engine?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

They are what they say they are, post starting.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

I gotcha, so looks like the only things I can adjust for cranking are pulse widths (I do need better warmup enrichments too but I'm going to start at the beginning and go from there). 

Do you guys use the 'extra fuel for cranking' in More cranking stuff? Maybe I'll play around with that. I'm kind of concerned with adding too much fuel... I don't know if because I have to tap the throttle, that means there's too much fuel and not enough air to ignite...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you have to flood clear the motor to get it to start, it's too much fuel. The only time I have seen that happen was when I worked on a car with a bad FPR and waaay too much fuel pressure.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Ok, so anything short of needing to flood clear to start and I should be safe as far as having too much fuel. 

I tried to start with 'extra for cranking' at 20 and didn't have much luck, bumped it to 30 and same, bumped it to 40 and it fired up strong. It was the 3rd crank though which has been the magic number to get it started, but it did seem to fire up stronger. So I'll let it cool down and try again fresh and see how it does. Thanks again for all the help so far guys, I'm learning a lot!


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm not seeing any progress so now I'm trying to go the other way, thinking that maybe I'm pumping too much fuel. So I'm decreasing my PWs. 

It seems that it can almost always fire after the 3rd crank with a little throttle. I'm not engine smart enough to know exactly why it takes a few times. Any thoughts?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

mine generally takes about 3-5 seconds of cranking to fire off. maybe a little less now that I have the plugs gapped correctly. But it has never been like a carbed car where you just touch the key.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh yeah? Hmm, I've read so much that with MS, my car should be able to fire just like stock. But maybe that's if I'm running it stock... 

ps2375-What your setup like? If I could get it to fire on the first crank, that would be sweet, even if it takes a few seconds. 

Any other 16v cam'd turbos with 42lb injectors on here with some suggested settings?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Mine is just a NA 8V more or less stock-ish. I'd say get a good strong idle and then tweak your cranking enrichment's.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

My idle is pretty solid once it's warm, and I've been adjusting my ASE and WUE to get it strong during warm up. But my cranking!!! Making me cranky! 

What other factors go into cranking beyond MS? Starter, ign switch, fuel pump, etc. I wonder if maybe I've got other things to troubleshoot that I'm over looking. 

Also, I can't seem to import or save just table files. Say I only want to import an ASE table, I can only load full msq files. Do you guys know if that's a TS lite thing?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Solid battery voltage to all components: starter, injectors and coil helps a ton.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

fakename said:


> Also, I can't seem to import or save just table files. Say I only want to import an ASE table, I can only load full msq files. Do you guys know if that's a TS lite thing?


 Only VE, Spark and AFR tables can be imported and exported.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Prof315 said:


> Only VE, Spark and AFR tables can be imported and exported.


 and the boost control related maps as well :thumbup:


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Just saw your posts now. Thanks for clarifying! 

Still working on it, I've got my 60* PW's at 8.4 and climbing because I'm still not getting it to crank until a few tries. Does that seem too high to you guys? All the Cranking tables that I've found online to use for reference are generally much lower, 5-6ish ms PWs at the same temp...


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Do you have full fuel pressure on the initial tries when cranking?


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Good question, when I turn the car 'on' my fuel pressure reads 65 (psi right?) or something, high enough to be in the red and I think stays there for each crank until it turns over and hovers around 45. I'll have to double check those numbers tomorrow but I'm pretty sure that's right...


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

If you pull a plug or two after the first try or two, are they wet or fouled with fuel?


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

hmmm... Haven't looked. I'll have to get a socket to pull those. If they are wet, what specifically does that tell you?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

too much fuel or not enough spark. I'd get a good look at them before backing the fuel down, though.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh, I gotcha. 

'before backing fuel down' Do you say that as a precautionary measure, like I could mess something up if they are in fact wet and I reduce the fuel? Or do you say that as not to worry about backing off on fuel unless I notice that they're getting too wet?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

second, nothing you can hurt when cranking. Well, other than washing the cylinder walls down with too much fuel too often.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Cool, thanks. I thought so but I can over think things:screwy: I'll get a puller for those and take a look at them. 

I've yet to do anything with spark plugs (could you tell when I said I don't have a socket for them), so are there other things I should look for? I'll research it in between my researching all the other broken stuff on my mk2 but I know there are things like gap and... I'm sure there are others...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

When comparing settings, dont forget thats raw pulsewidth and does't take into account injector size. Someone with an injector twice as large would have half the pw, etc.


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah, that's a good point and I've been trying to find maps with specs close to mine. 

With 42lb injectors, does 8.4 seem excessive at 60*?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

What do they idle at ~4ms?


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

They idle around 2.3 PW when warm... 

And no 5th injector either, so I guess my cold PW's would be higher than others because of that, yes?


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Bumping this back up a bit with an update:

I've continued to increase my cranking PW's and I can now get it to fire on the first crank after 5-10 seconds of cranking. Here is my table (haven't had to crank lower than 50*)










Seem pretty high to me, what do you guys think? Could that be a problem?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Little high, how is your fuel pressure during cranking?


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## fakename (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh yeah, forgot to mention about that. Well, I've noticed something that seems kind of strange. When I turn my key to the 'on' position, my fuel pressure is around 30-40psi but if I leave the key 'on' for a few seconds before cranking, my FP jumps into the red (don't remember but I think that's like 60+ psi) and the needles jumps around. And it starts much better when I put the key in and immediately start cranking instead of waiting a second or two. Does this sound normal or ring any bells?


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