# 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions.



## White_Rabbit_GTI (Apr 27, 2007)

Ok I have been doing some reading and yes I need to probably do more but I also must ask some questions.
I had bought a book "How To Tune and Modifiy Engine Management Systems" it had a section on different sensors now I know that an ECU needs some sensors to enable it to function, ie:
TPS
O2
Coolant Temp
Iam going to be putting ITB's on this engine, so I dont think I can do a MAF or MAP but having the other sensors hooked up Iam sure the ECU can make due.
Also I want to be sure Iam ordering all the right parts, the car is currently running MSD ignition as oposed to the stock ICM (in the rain tray, was orignaly an 8V MK1) but I want to ditch the MSD for a complete V2 MSNS (dont trust the guy that hooked up the MSD) 
http://www.diyautotune.com/cat....html
http://www.diyautotune.com/cat....html
http://www.diyautotune.com/cat....html
Should that be all I need MSNS wise? my ITB's already have a TPS and the engine of course has the Coolant temp sensor already, and I will be doing an O2 sensor weld plug to mount an O2 in my aftermarket setup.
These cars aswell have a Hall sensor on the stock dizzy and I assume the MSNS ECU can be hooked up to this, correct? Also where does the MSNS draw main power from is it from the main power to the fusebox?
and correct me if Iam wrong the ECU can also run fuel control thru the stock fuel pump relay in the VAG fusebox.
I believe this is all I have for now, like I said I have been doing research and I still continue to read Iam not asking for anybody to solve my problems Iam just asking some basic beginer questions, and I ask here because I feel this are relativly specific to my car setup.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (White_Rabbit_GTI)*

You can run ITB's with a MAP sensor as long as the motor is fairly mild, you have the throttles synced, and you tie all the cyls together to a common line for the MAP sensor. 
The 3.57/harness/cable will be all you need but if you plan to modify your unit in the future for any reason the 3.57 is much harder to modify then the V2.2 and V3s. Either the V3 or 3.57 will have the ability in stock form to drive the coil directly without the MSD. The V2.2 will need either the MSD or a stock amplifier without further modification.
The MS will need to be hooked up to the stock distributor hall sensor as its trigger. Main power just needs to come from a switched, fused 12v source.
Depending on the car the stock fuel pump relay may or not be able to be used. The Mk1 fuel pump fuse will have to be removed and replaced with a 'normal' relay and the relay coil ground cut and run to the MS fuel pump wire for the MS to control it.
There is a lot of good information at:
megamanual.com
msextra.com
If you're bored and want to read for weeks.


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## White_Rabbit_GTI (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (need_a_VR6)*

Alright so ITB's can be run with a map but they dont have to have one for the ECU to operate the engine, correct?
When you say "The Mk1 fuel pump fuse will have to be removed and replaced with a 'normal' relay" you mean stock mk1 relay, not fuse right? and whats considered a "normal relay"?
and what do you mean by "and the relay coil ground cut and run to the MS fuel pump wire for the MS to control it." the ground wire for the pump relay?
I really thank you for the tidbit of information you've provided me, you seem to know your stuff. I have been trolling a few of the MS specific forums but I thought I would start asking here because I could get some specifics from peole who have dont similar work to VW's.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Most of the guys who run ITBs run Alpha-N, which uses TPS vs. RPM for the main fuel and ignition tables.
There is also a modified version of Alpha-N that uses TPS vs. RPM for the fuel, and TPS vs. MAP for the Ignition
I'm currently using the latter config, but may switch, I'm not sure which version most people use. You can also use the MAP as a constant BARO correction if you decide to use just TPS


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_ The Mk1 fuel pump fuse will have to be removed and replaced with a 'normal' relay and the relay coil ground cut and run to the MS fuel pump wire for the MS to control it.


Is there any reason you couldn't just provide the MK1 relay with a tach signal? At least I think that should make it operate just as it did in with stock injection and ignition.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
Is there any reason you couldn't just provide the MK1 relay with a tach signal? At least I think that should make it operate just as it did in with stock injection and ignition.


The MS will prime the fuel system by turning on the fuel pump for a few seconds when the ignition is first switched on, if you ran it off a tach signal, it might take longer to get the system primed to fire the engine while first cranking. Plus the signal may not be compatible.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_
The MS will prime the fuel system by turning on the fuel pump for a few seconds when the ignition is first switched on, 

The MK1 fuel pump relay does EXACTLY the same thing. If you turn the ignition on in a CIS VW without starting the engine, you can hear the pump run for 2 or 3 seconds and then shut off. 
The tach signal from the MS ECU may not be compatible but if you take the signal directly from the negative of the coil, that would be compatible.


_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 4:21 PM 4-26-2008_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (ABA Scirocco)*

Ah, good question! You're right the VW relay does exactly that, but..
It's much easier to get a turn signal relay, or any other generic relay, then the VW fuel pump relay on a lazy Sunday afternoon or at the race track. The Mk1 fuel pump relay has gone bad on me enough times that I carried a spare in the car 100% of the time. So, I mod everything to use a 'normal' relay.
To clarify..
Take the Mk1 relay out of that fuseblock position
Install a 'normal' 4 pin relay with 30/85/86/87 pins (turn signal works great in a pinch) the relay will physically only fit the right way
Cut the wire on the relay that would normally ground the coil (85 or 86 I can't remember offhand). 
Splice the relay end of that wire to the fuel pump output wire on the MS.
MS is now controlling the fuel pump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
This can also be done on the later VW's with the 'normal' fuel pump relay just by taking the wire that normally ran to the ECU and bringing that to the MS. They are all ground to activate as far as I'm aware.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (need_a_VR6)*

The fuel relays on my Sciroccos have bigger pins than the "normal" relay, the normal relays are a bit sloppy in the fuel pump slot. But your point about the reliabilty of the fuel pump relay is well taken, I've driven home using the horn relay before and I now keep one of these in my glove box.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (ABA Scirocco)*

My experience is all with Rabbits and from what I've seen they all use normal sized terminals on the fuel pump relay. 
I love that switch!


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (need_a_VR6)*

I think the bigger terminal relays are from German built VW post 84 cars, my 83 Scirocco had normal size terminal, my 85 Jetta, 85 Scirocco and 86 Scirocco all have the bigger ones.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (ABA Scirocco)*

That could be true, I know the later CE2 cars have a larger pin relay but I don't work on much in between.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 16v + ITB's + Megasquirt = Some beginer questions. (need_a_VR6)*

I'm not sure but it might be the same fuse panel.


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## bluebug300 (Jun 30, 2007)

Hey guys I'm Kohbie from Barbados and im building a mk2 Golf, N/A 1.8 16v with ITBsfrom a GSX-R 1000; was wondering if u could help me with a wiring daigram of the MSnS setup.....thanks in advance (i tried searching but i'm not that good at using it)


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (bluebug300)*

Here is one I've been working on MS V2.2 single coil for use with the 'official' MS mods on the Extra site:


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## bluebug300 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks alot....i'll see if it works


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