# 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start



## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi,
i use MS2 extra V3 firmware 20090611,using stock 240 ccm injectors.
I have difficult cold starts ,so i am on the chase of my problem.
I realised,that the cranking PW is calculated from Req_fuel and the cranking pulse% table. I had the reqfuel raised from around 15ms to 18,5 when i went to E85.
I had about 250% in the cranking% table at -8 degree,so the cranking PW should be 18,5*2,5=46,25 oops,the max for MS is only 25,5ms,right?
What did i get? Shorter PW than req fuel.
Ok,i changed my reqfuel to 12ms,and rescaled my whole VE table,retuned all the settings wich are connected to req fuel.
Retuned the Cr% to max 200%,wich should be 24ms,wich is acceptable.
Ok,i tested the car.At 200% i got 6,5ms PW,at 100% i had 4ms,at 300% i got 9ms.
Funny,but after te car hits the cranking running rpm,the PW jumps to 18-19ms,wich makes the car stalling,in good case it stumbles on 2-3 cilinders.Then the PW goes to 6,5ms cold,and car idles fine.
Please check my topic on MSextra.com,there is my msq and log too...
I cant figure out,whats going on with my MS
http://www.msextra.com/forums/...34572


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## bomberbob (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (radics1)*

You live in Hungary, correct? How cold is it there? It has been below zero (farenheit) for days here. I used to run just E85, but when it got cold the car would not start. I am running a 60/40 mixture right now (more gas than alcohol) and it starts easier, but it is still a challenge. I haven't looked at your msq yet, but I can say from my own experience that E85 doesn't light off when it gets cold (vapor pressure issue). If you figure out a way to get E85, or E70 or something with that much alcohol content to start when its below 0 centigrade, please tell me the secret. I would love to kick my gasoline habit. There is another person (weeblebiker) on the vortex who is running a turbo car on E85, and he has problems starting cold too. It may not be a problem with your car, it may be a problem with your fuel.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (bomberbob)*

Hi,
Yes,Hungary.Here i had about -10 C degree (about 14F if i am correct). 
At such a low temperature what you have,i wouldnt try to use 100%ethanol.At -10 degree i can start it,but it takes me a few cranks till it fires up,then it stalls,next cranking,same thing. I help a bit with the throttle,then i can keep it from stalling,after 10s of running at about 1500 rpm,it idles fine.
I have to make the idle controll working on my car,with the 1.8t built in TB idle valve i had no luck,no proper idle.I want to use an older 2pin bosch valve from 16v gti,maybe if i make the idle higher in cold,i can keep it from stalling.
Now i adjusted my settings,i will see if it works,when engine is cold again.
One thing to bear in mind,cranking PW should be big to start it!I realised,that the cranking PW is about the same,what i SEE at idle.
For example cold idle PW is 12ms,then i will need 12ms at cranking,wich is 4x12ms due to every event injection,so 4x so much.
In the MT you see it just 12ms at cranking,but it is 48 for me.
I need to use E85,because gasoline gets here very expensive compared to the loans, 1l regular 95 Oct gasoline (i think it is the 91 in the USA) is 1,87$, 1 liter E85 is "only" 1,25$
I will keep you informed.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (radics1)*

Hi,
today it took me 20 minutes to start the engine,it was about -5 degree celsius.
I cranked,had some ignition,then nothing,cranked again,still wont fire up right.
I played 20 minutes with the settings,and car started,but it has nothing to do with my settings changes,it simply warmed up a bit due to my cranking.
What the hell is here going? I adjusted the cranging PW %,but it does not helped.
Someone using pure E85 in such a cold weather?


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## MofoDan (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (radics1)*

Another issue with E85 in cold climates is that when you are pumping a lot of fuel in it when its cold alot of it will not get ignited. Some of this fuel will wash down the cylinder walls and settle in the oil. Once the oil gets up to temp this fuel boils off and if your crankcase is vented into your intake your going to be overfueling until all the fuel is boiled off. I don't think MS has any feature for this.
-Dan


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (MofoDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MofoDan* »_ I don't think MS has any feature for this.

Sure it does, if you are using the AFR target tables, that will adjust fueling. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bomberbob (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (radics1)*

There are no tracks in the snow leading to the E85 pump here. I don't think they sell much here in the winter. I still burn it, but I mix a 60/40 cocktail. 
From a buick forum "Switched my car over to 100% E85 this week. Now its hard to start when its cold. Takes at least three to four trys to get it to fire. After it starts and has heat in it, it is good for the rest of the day. I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem?
From another post "I use 190 proof ethonal and at 45 deg. I have to shoot gas in the intake to get it to start. Once it gets a little heat in it there is no problem starting."
From IEEE xplore "Ethanol vehicles present a significant cold starting problem. Below 11°C, ethanol will not form a rich enough fuel vapor-air mixture to support combustion. The addition of 15% gasoline helps to alleviate this problem, by allowing the vehicle to start primarily on the vaporized gasoline compounds. This approach does not completely eliminate the problem while substantially worsening cold start emissions. Supplementing E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) with hydrogen improves cold starting significantly." I don't think you or I have the ability to inject hydrogen.
What you will probably have to do is dilute your alcohol with petrol. You may not have to use as much gas as I do (my 60/40 decision was a flip of the coin, no testing at all). Again, if you figure out the recipe to running straight E70 to E85 and get quick, reliable starts, please tell me the secret. I have not cracked the code.


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## radics1 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: 1.8T on MS2, E85,hard cold start (bomberbob)*

I found the secret: parking in my garage solves all cold start issues!








I played a lot on the settings,as you wrote,the E85 isnt able to form a combustible mixture below 11 degree C (this is for E100,with E 85 i would say 5 deg).This is fact,i think all the youtube vids are bull****,starting on one try with pure E85 in -20 degree.
Today it was -7 deg C in the morning,it took me 5 minutes to get the car idle. I have E85,and a few liter petrol int the tank,i would say it is E80 maybe. I crank,starts to burn then nothing,and again again. After 5 mins i think the partial burned E85 (mostly burned gasoline) heats up the cylinder a bit,so it starts on 2 cyls,and then the other cylinders are starting to burn.
I read an article about H2 injection and E85 experiment.I think it would be much easyer to install a 5th cold start injector,as the Rabbits K-jet have,and using a separate fuel tank (this could be 1-2 liters),injecting petrol in it,to start the car.After it started on petrol,i think about 30 seconds the chamber would be so warm,that it can burn E85 strait.
Well i removed my home-made WAI system,wich worked so.I think i could use it for petrol injection as well.


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