# 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler?



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

as in running the intake air through the cold side of an ac system instead of running it through aintercooler. 
would one be able to get a net power increase by throwing 35* degree air into the motor or would it be negated by the power needed for the compressor? 
or do I just need to get more sleep


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (weeblebiker)*

You need to get more sleep.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (VWn00b)*

2 things, get more sleep and when RPMs increase, pressures in the AC system increase. The clutch will disengage to keep the pressures under control and you will lose your cooling. AC compressor also creates a lot of parasitic drag.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (weeblebiker)*

yah,
entropy is a buzz kill for wannabe automotive engineers.
the idea is kinda silly this afternoon.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_yah,
entropy is a buzz kill for wannabe automotive engineers.
the idea is kinda silly this afternoon.


Props for thinking outside the box and creativity. You're on the right track


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_when RPMs increase, pressures in the AC system increase. The clutch will disengage to keep the pressures under control and you will lose your cooling. 

Not true at high rpm the pump is being turned off because of too much pressure. The accumulator stores enough pressure to keep a good pressure differential at the expansion valve to keep cooling happening in the evaporator long enough for the pressure to normalize. Then the pump is reengaged.
Almost all modern cars disengage the A/C when at full throttle, and you don’t loose cooling.

_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_ AC compressor also creates a lot of parasitic drag. 

Very true, My idea was to use the A/C compressor out of a prius (electric) but found out is runs on a variable 48V system that needs the ECU to control it.








It has been done before, but I am not sure if the drag is more or less than the gain of cooler charge air.
It would also be possible to have one compressor and use two evaps, have one for the charge air and one for the cabin. If I lived in Florida I would do it!


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## steve12345 (Jan 8, 2006)

A large accumulator connected via solenoid valves that you could charge and store when cruising and drain when racing might work.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (steve12345)*

I was thinking more for autocross during the summer more than high speed stuff.
basically negating heat soak issues between runs and or waiting for my turn. 
most of the "fun" driving I like is tight twisties between 15-50 mph. 


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:37 AM 8-30-2009_


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_
Not true at high rpm the pump is being turned off because of too much pressure. The accumulator stores enough pressure to keep a good pressure differential at the expansion valve to keep cooling happening in the evaporator long enough for the pressure to normalize. Then the pump is reengaged.
Almost all modern cars disengage the A/C when at full throttle, and you don’t loose cooling.



Even on newer cars you can feel the air get warm when accelerating hard, at least here in AZ where its always over 375 degrees outside in the summer


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## jimivr6 (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (KubotaPowered)*

that's already done. there was a guy with a yellow volvo s40 hatch. basically put end tanks on evaporator. looks like an awic with ac lines hooked up.


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## Bug_racer (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (jimivr6)*

To put it simply your gonna be using energy to try and create it . The power the compressor uses will cancel out any gains , then there is thermal losses , so , in reality you'll use more power to create power . This will only really work on a drag car to allow the car to idle to attempt to prevent heatsoak . It will work , but reality is , its simpler and cheaper to run water/meth kit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (Bug_racer)*

I'm pretty sure the volvo C30 project done in ET utilized ac'ish compressor tech to cool the intake charge....???

Have to dig that up....


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (Bug_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_racer* »_To put it simply your gonna be using energy to try and create it . The power the compressor uses will cancel out any gains , then there is thermal losses , so , in reality you'll use more power to create power . This will only really work on a drag car to allow the car to idle to attempt to prevent heatsoak . It will work , but reality is , its simpler and cheaper to run water/meth kit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yah entropy sucks. 
but ac intercooling may still be the best way to overcome heat soak in the summer, without having to make sure water meth tanks are filled. maybe ac cool as an addition/ suplement to intercooler.
water/meth may be the way to go.
maybe I'll do all three for real idiocity overkill


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

whynot use nos to cool? hell you could rig up a Co2 cooling system.... ac cooling is not a good idea at all... it it was we would see the audi and bmw race teams using it


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## rednhez (May 11, 2005)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_ac cooling is not a good idea at all... it it was we would see the audi and bmw race teams using it

thats not a good attitude to have.







new ideas need to come from somewhere.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

yeah from the PHD holding engineers and scientists at Audi, BMW... etc etc.. not from a 36 year old "Occupation	Quality, Purchasing"... no offense


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## jimivr6 (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_I'm pretty sure the volvo C30 project done in ET utilized ac'ish compressor tech to cool the intake charge....???

Have to dig that up....

if its the yellow one ?


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## Zdriver (May 17, 2006)

*Re: 2:00AM idea, using an AC evaperator to cool intake charge as an intercooler? (jimivr6)*

Could I recommend the new soalr panel a/c system from the new prius's..


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

umm dude theres nothing new about that, my old audi had it.... cool... but not the revolutionary thing toyotas making it out to be... and where did they source parts for it? you got it, german manufacturers


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_yeah from the PHD holding engineers and scientists at Audi, BMW... etc etc.. not from a 36 year old "Occupation	Quality, Purchasing"... no offense 

3M is the answer here; you'll find more imaginative solutions when your creativity isn't limited to the narrow scope of what you've learned.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

pretty sure there have been no automotive engineering advances from 3M in a LONG time


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_pretty sure there have been no automotive engineering advances from 3M in a LONG time









You're kidding, I hope.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_yeah from the PHD holding engineers and scientists at Audi, BMW... etc etc.. not from a 36 year old "Occupation	Quality, Purchasing"... no offense 

no offense taken, titles may be vague for a purpose.
but,,,
no automotive manufacturer R&D staff or race teams bother with special applications,,,,,, 
like uhm 30-60 second autocross runs, or high compression turbo'd engines driving spiritedly then dealing with stop-n-go traffic, now do they? 
and we could find a few things that came out of both camps that were real turds, grenade 60's for instance.



_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:11 AM 9-2-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

yes im kidding, and touche weeblebiker..... fwiw I toyed around with the ac compressor cooling intake charge idea... you just cant get around the laws of physics, period.


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## crusinvw (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_whynot use nos to cool? hell you could rig up a Co2 cooling system.... ac cooling is not a good idea at all... it it was we would see the audi and bmw race teams using it

I don't think the issue is how to cool the charge air. There are plenty of ways to do this. 
My major concern is condensation. You know when you are driving down the road with the AC on and you have water dripping our of your car? That's not from the condensor (rad like heat exchanger under your hood), it's from your evaporator (under your dash). This same thing would happen in your charge piping regardless of what you use to cool it. 
Typically, warm ambient air has a high level of humidity. When you cool it, the water that is suspended as vapor will typically turn to liquid and now you have a relatively large amount of water in your charge piping. The medium that you use to remove heat from the charge air doesn't matter, all will result in condensation within your charge piping. 
Precooling the air before it goes into the turbo could work becaus you could drain the condesation easily, but I don't know enough about how much heat is transfered from a turbo to charge air during pressurization to know if this is worth it.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (crusinvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crusinvw* »_ My major concern is condensation. 
Typically, warm ambient air has a high level of humidity. When you cool it, the water that is suspended as vapor will typically turn to liquid and now you have a relatively large amount of water in your charge piping. The medium that you use to remove heat from the charge air doesn't matter, all will result in condensation within your charge piping. 

water can be removed from intake piping by dipping to a lowpoint with a tube to catchcan, or solonid valve thats open under boost.

_Quote, originally posted by *crusinvw* »_ Precooling the air before it goes into the turbo could work becaus you could drain the condesation easily, but I don't know enough about how much heat is transfered from a turbo to charge air during pressurization to know if this is worth it. 

not nearly as efficent at removing the heat of compression and heat transfer the turbo adds as aftercooling.
I think some of you saying entropy are not seeing the whole picture. We are actually removing energy from one of the components that we are adding to chemical reaction. The entropy is done before we burn the air. By cooling air the amount of energy removed is offset favorably for the more dense cooler air that contains more energy in the same volume. The cooler denser air can create more HP! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
An A/C compressor draws between 10~15hp for piston to about 3~5hp for a modern rotary. these can remove aprox 10k btu's of heat
Question for people who have lots of dyno tuning exp, 
How much HP would you lose if intake air is 90° instead of 60°?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

condensation really is not an issue. 
condensation does not occur unless you get the air cooled to or below dew point, the piping in the engine bay is always warmer than the dew point. cold air won't condensate on wammer metal pipes.
unless your driving in boost on the rain or fog


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

An A/C evaperator should be able to get the charge air below dew point unless in arizona or similar area of dry air.
But it doesnt _*need*_ to be removed. Water/meth is injected to help cool the charge air. but this should be in a fine mist not droplets that are collecting on the cool evap heat exchanger.


_Modified by Rocco R16V at 2:11 AM 9-4-2009_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

now my thought with this is in addition to an intercooler, there is enough room in the rocco.


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## Bug_racer (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_
An A/C compressor draws between 10~15hp for piston to about 3~5hp for a modern rotary. these can remove aprox 10k btu's of heat
Question for people who have lots of dyno tuning exp, 
How much HP would you lose if intake air is 90° instead of 60°?










The only issue there is how long does it take ? The hotter the day the harder the a/c works . It may only draw 3hp but how efficient is it at cooling the whole cabin quickly ? A turbo car at full boost is gonna suck in a lot of air !


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (Bug_racer)*

yah, a 2L motor @ 15psi is roughly 4L of air per cycle @ 6000rpm is 12,000 liters of air per minute moving through the system.
hmm


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_yah, a 2L motor @ 15psi is roughly 4L of air per cycle @ 6000rpm is 12,000 liters of air per minute moving through the system.
hmm

12,000 L/M =425 CFM should not be a prob for a typ car system. should be much more effective at heat removal than an air/air system.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_An A/C evaperator should be able to get the charge air below dew point unless in arizona or similar area of dry air.
But it doesnt _*need*_ to be removed. Water/meth is injected to help cool the charge air. but this should be in a fine mist not droplets that are collecting on the cool evap heat exchanger.

_Modified by Rocco R16V at 2:11 AM 9-4-2009_

dingding ding ! hence why i abandonded the project... damn az http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_
dingding ding ! hence why i abandonded the project... damn az http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


with that much air blowing through the evaporator/intake charge cooler, I don't think you need to worry about water droplet formation.



_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:53 AM 9-14-2009_


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

it's been done, about a year or 2 ago....talk is cheap....saying it can't be done, just puts you at the back of the pack...instantly
it's the thinkers who win.
it's the people who come up with ideas, that may seem hair-brained that have gotten us to the point in science and technology that we are today.
stop doubting and start trying.
http://evolvec30.com/site/index.php?id=6,7,0,0,1,0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...=fvsr

_Quote, originally posted by *EVOLVE* »_

Charged Air Cooler

As air is compressed, it is heated. Hot air being ingested by the engine proportionally decreases power. As such, charged (boosted) air needs to be cooled before it enters the engine for maximum power potential. Common means of cooling charged are Air/Air or Liquid/Air intercoolers. However, EVOLVE wanted to do something different than use a traditional intercooler. Leaning on science, technology, and a thorough understanding of cooling requirements for charged air, an innovative, light-weight heat exchanger was created. Integrated with the factory air conditioning refrigerant system, an evaporator was constructed inside of a fabricated sheet metal intake manifold. Correct refrigerant amounts are regulated by a secondary expansion valve. Hot, charged air from the turbos pass over super-cooled piping just before entering the throttle body, dramatically reducing the intake charge temperature. Overall vehicle weight is reduced due to elimination of the intercooler and related plumbing. While Air/Air intercoolers often struggle with efficiency percentages, the EVOLVE Charged Air Cooler has the ability to make the heated air considerably cooler than ambient outside temperature.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*

POW


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_dingding ding ! hence why i abandonded the project... damn az http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

i dont get it, being in AZ is more reason to have an AC/intercooler and having dry air means its easier not having to worry about condensation. 
We know its been done, but that doesnt mean the power output from cooler air is more than the power consumed driving the compressor.
That question hasnt been answered.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

dry air? obviousy never been to az during monsoon season


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_dry air? obviousy never been to az during monsoon season

ya got me, i thought it was all desert like nevada.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_yeah from the PHD holding engineers and scientists at Audi, BMW... etc etc.. not from a 36 year old "Occupation	Quality, Purchasing"... no offense 

or from PHD holding engineers and scientists at volvo either








sorry, 2LTurbo. just had to do it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

best to leave work @ work










_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:26 AM 9-17-2009_


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Ok, so I’ve been playing around with this calculator.
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm
And no matter what #'s I use it always comes out to be a 3% difference for a 30° temp change.
I’m Assuming a rotary compressor that doesn’t turn off at full throttle drawing ~5hp and an evaporator sized properly to achieve a 30° temperature reduction.
This tells me is that if you have a 200hp motor the compressor will draw about the same power that it is creating, but you will be dragging that extra weight around.
If your motor is 300HP or more, the HP gain of having cooler air is MORE than the hp drain of the compressor. 
@ 500HP there is a 10HP gain! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
YMMV


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

10hp gain for all that work? rather go methanol injection, with toluene in the gas tank


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_10hp gain for all that work?

Yes, but that also means an a/a intercooler will only gain you 15 HP max on a 500hp motor.
That doesnt sound right, maybe the calculator isnt adding in the gain from being able to utilize more advance at lower intake temps.
if so there is more gains to be had and this is just a minimum. ??


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

yah I've been thinking about the arguement of "you can't create energy by using energy"
and I thought of two words that kill that arguement
super charger
every body knows a turbo is more efficient, 
so *a* question is
does a turbo and a ac compressor actually put more drag on a motor than a supercharger for the hp increase?
btw anyone that read my work rant,,,, I got it figured out and it's humming like a champ @ 2000*F full of hydrogen











_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:29 PM 9-25-2009_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

so sounds like a fun calculation
I don't evean know all the variables


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
Props for thinking outside the box and creativity. You're on the right track

i think the big fail is how many btu a 300 hp engine swallows
& a typical 5000 btu ac isn't going to drop 300 hp/cfm 30F
i imagine a road race track since i'm not an engineer
if your engine is making 300 hp continuously with your little scir radiator blocked by the intercooler, the first thing robbing your power will be heat soak of the engine bay
not to mention the whole thing blocked by a 25% eff AC unit capable of making 300 hp/cfm 30F colder............................
i thought if you had an effective ac/ice box system that would hold a nice reserve for a drag race of intercooler air, but 100 lbs of intercooler/ac technology might be best left with the tools on the drag race...
imagining your car making 300 hp continuously in the dessert reminds me of my car on the highway in the summer
the only issue is coolant & oil temps that climb until detonation pushes down the timing, the system suggested here sure in the wouldn't help out this problem
the oil temp stabilizer has no way to cool in WOT scenario, that's why i'm feeding my stabilizer with cold water now
water is denser than air, intercoolers are concerned with pres drop & aerodynamics, for an additional 30 F, but you could cover the car in radiators
it would be way easier to get a 30F change in your water temps with an additional radiator in the rear/drive in the dessert WOT without detonation
imagine if your car had 90F water available from the radiator all the time


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_
i think the big fail is how many btu a 300 hp engine swallows
& a typical 5000 btu ac isn't going to drop 300 hp/cfm 30F
not to mention the whole thing blocked by a 25% eff AC unit capable of making 300 hp/cfm 30F colder............................
the oil temp stabilizer has no way to cool in WOT scenario, that's why i'm feeding my stabilizer with cold water now


Agreed 5000 btu probably wont do it, thats why i said properly sized. could use the evap out of a suburban and put the condenser and a huge radiator in the back, that way the only hot air going into the engine bay are the A/A intercooler (yes i would still run one before the refrig/air cooler) and the big oil cooler
25% eff ?? where did you get this #








Anyone racing has got rid of the oil/coolant stabilizer long ago and put in a proper oil cooler. they are not expensive I got mine off of an audi for $50 at the junk yard
In this discussion no one stated "will it work for a daily driven small car and not loose any trunk/hatch space"








i really dont think this discussion is a fail, even if it turns out to not work or not practical, it does look to be not worth it as water/meth inj can do it with much less weight & complexity. but some of us like to think outside the cube once in a while http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Rocco R16V)*

hahahahahaahah
the big fail isn't the discussion jones
it would be my writing skills if anyting
the big fail is nothing here is going to help a dessert drag or road race car
i picked 25% out of the air considering the amount of work involved to drop intake temps 30F with an ac ice reserve gizmo
have you considered the construciton of a 20,000 btu system in a car?
since all you're doing is moving heat in all ac systems, they're 0% eff as far as i'm concerned
as far as using thermal energy eff under the hood, i'm putting my excess oil heat into the water cooling system, this actually raises the temp ex potential a little & helps eff, not a gram heavier
your used place for oil to leak adds bs to the car
and your car is slower than mine


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_
your used place for oil to leak adds bs to the car
and your car is slower than mine


How is better cooling BS?
Maybe your car is faster in a straight line but mine handles better and my superior driving skills will beat you at the road course!


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

EL DRIFTO: i cant take anything you say serious, because you want a dessert drag racer.... i can tell you right now, thats impossible to get, it would be a sticky mess. now a DESERT drag racer.... thats another story !


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

I agree that the idea is not good for dessert, desert high speed or any high speed.
I'm thinking autocross or the back roads of southern Indiana. 
20-60mph, with more breaking to 20 and accelerating from 20 than 60.
so basically having the ac ntercooler in addition to a regular intercooler for high output low airflow situations without having to keep tanks full. I don't want to have to cruise back to civilization instead of finishing that spirited drive I went out for when I'm enjoying a weekend down in Brown County and have to skip out to the market.
I'm kinda thinking of eventually dropping my 16v stuff into a a3/a4 platform with ac anyway so the weight would not be additional, then setting up ms to kick the ac compressor on and trip a solenoid valve to cool the intake charge above a intake air temp set point, like a water meth system would be set.
as for EL DRIFTO the some of the stuff he posts is down right crazy,,,dessert race cars








the other stuff he posts is pretty good stuff in betweeen the screwyness


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

thres got to be a better way then the AC to cool the charge. what about using peltiers to cool an Air to air intercooler to freezing temps?


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

did you see what he called me









disclaimers
i learned how to read compressor maps less than a year ago
i'll credit the vortex folks for anything i act like i know here
i'm very grateful
some foks wouldn't consider it very difficult to get 300 hp continuously
with 400 hp intervals or 1000 hp out of a 1 liter either
just sayin


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_some foks wouldn't consider it very difficult to get 1000 hp out of a 1 liter either 

it shouldnt be hard, Porsche did it in the '70s should be easy now


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

get back to excess heat intercooling issue on a 300 hp car without a compressor map or tubo off a car with less hp or surge tank








your's is probably similar in shape, just different #
the left side pres ratio incl na atmosphere
so 14 psi is 2.0 ratio
the bottom is cfm, lets say 80 = 800 hp
so basically, the used turbo (which has a map, but it's not mine to find) is off a car that wasn't making 300 hp so i'm guessing way off the top right of the chart makes heat that eclipses the rest
come up to the hot side folks who full spool by so & so or supersonic after such & such


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 1:20 PM 9-28-2009_


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

Is a A/W intercooler out of the question? If not, why not just run some extra post-evaporator tubing through a water res and call it a day?
You will notice that the low side a/c line coming out of the cabin evaporator is still much colder than ambient and producing condensation. Plenty cold enough to cool a reservoir of water over time to below ambient.
This would be in addition to the standard heat exchanger, but maybe rearranged. IC -> heat xhanger -> res+ac -> IC 
You could also heat couple the ac lines to the IC. sort of like a NOS halo, but the contact of the cold ac lines to the IC is what cools the IC.


_Modified by elRey at 4:45 PM 9-28-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

im still interested in peltiers


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

peltiers could be interesting, definitely,
I wonder how big an alternator you'd need, maybe run dual alts.
google'ing "peltiers intercooler" has been interesting to say the least


_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:40 AM 9-29-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

haha, i was thinking of using the peltiers to cool a awi... that would be sick... also found large ones, that require 560 watts to run


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

http://autospeed.com/cms/title....html
this was an interesting read.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_http://autospeed.com/cms/title....html
this was an interesting read.


yes, a real eye opener "subie intercooler @ 13.4kw" thats 45722btus per hour!








thats a ~4000 sq ft house a/c size! 
no way a (single) 5HP car compressor is going to keep up with that load.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

yeah peltiers are out of the question the cop is only .4-1 where as the cop for the ac is 3..... back on to the using the AC.... ps the AC is doable


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

So I just had another wacky idea.
I'm running E85, mostly ethanol.
what about runing the fuel line through a peltzer cooler?
yah I'm already thinking of time delay, density issues and such, but the specific heat(?) of ethanol is alot lower than water, you can cool it quicker and ethanol does suck alot of heat energy vaporizing.
maybe having a in line parralel cooling tank type system. 
basically using my own fuel as a "water meth injection"


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

you guys shouldn't inhale lit freon


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

maybe encrust the fingers of the fuel rail with peltzer strips, insert a copper heat sink in the finger tubes and insulate the cross tube so it does not absorb engine bay heat.
freon is good stuff man,, all 3m products are, just look @ r134. they're products are only bad if the patent is getting ready to run out


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*









so in my adventures i saw mercedes had wrapped the fuel line in coolant hose on more than one model
were they trying to bring the fuel temp up to coolant temp for some reason ??
& my dyno geek friends said that excess fuel pump volume would heat the fuel for power loss
although they had no examples
getting the smallest pump that will work @ 18v with a gizmo would minimize fuel heat...
considered ghetto in this box, i can't thikn of anything else that would help
i haven't heard anything of the actual power # in fuel temp.
perhaps you have someting


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

why run e85 ... you should be running home brew with toluene and xylene


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

y would you use tolulene 114 octane when xylene is 118?
what if you mix e85 & xylene?



_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 7:43 PM 9-30-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

because xylene is a little more harsh then toluene on rubber components and seals


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

I would in a heart beat if they sold it for $2.20 down the street








heck, I'd even run CAM2 if they sold it for $2.20 down the street.








actually my idea would work evan better on a returnless fuel delivery system. hmm when I finally get creamed by an idiot driver talking on a cell phone, I may just have to drop my goods into a a4 platform, I think they have returnless fuel systems.
I wonder about making a mock returnless system, just having 1 line coming off the fuel loop going to the fuel cooler and feeding the enjector rail from that


_Modified by weeblebiker at 10:36 PM 9-30-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

the xylene was a little harsh when it went lean
but my rubbers look the same










_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 6:09 AM 10-3-2009_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

correction E85 1.99/gal
the main concept being instead of pulling heat (btus) out of the high volume air (gas) by convection through metal. pull it (same btu's) out of the air by pulling those btus out first from the low volume fuel you spray in anyway. liquid is easier to pull heat out of than gas, more molecules touching the cooling surface, so should be more efficent at cooling low flow liquid than high flow air.
so maybe using an ac compressor to cool the gas. run a water air intercooler and use the air side as the evaporator.
then wrap the fuel rail in insulation.
specific heat of ethanol is 2.46j/g*c specific heat of air is 1.01j/g*c specific heat of water 4.18 j/g/8c
there is some lit on fuel temp / cold starting and fuel temp / vapor lock. 
but nothing I can find on cold fuel in a hot engine pushing hotter air 
there is something in megasquirt 2 about "full puddling", hmm


_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:58 AM 10-1-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

**** cooling the gas dude... seriously heat the gas and run 70 percent toluene like formula ones


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

so what volume liquid does one of those water air intercoolers hold 
and how big of a boom would that much fuel pressurized to 58 psi make in the engine bay?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_**** cooling the gas dude... seriously heat the gas and run 70 percent toluene like formula ones

Like I said, I will,,,,,as soon as they have it in a pump down the street for 2 bucks a gallon


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

heated 70% tolulene








that's interesting
i was told to not run more than 25% xylene with a capful of ATF per gallon for lubrication
if you haven't seen the difference, xylene blows your engine all over the street if something goes wrong
e makes 5% more power no matter what
xylene burns HOT & is just for octane
so that's xylene 2
tolulene 1
e85 2
heated fuel 2
chilled fuel 1
you haven't used e85 - solved


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_yah, a 2L motor @ 15psi is roughly 4L of air per cycle @ 6000rpm is 12,000 liters of air per minute moving through the system.
hmm

well, actually only pre turbo, post turbo/charger it's 2L 
2Liters @atmo is same volume as 2L at 60psi
think about a 2L bottle, no seal it contails 2L of air, at 60psi it still only contains 2L of air just at higher density.
higher density and pressure help heat transfer.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

ITBs & carbureation can gain the most benefit from fuel cooling the intake charge as it evaporates down the runner
carbs like cold fuel
doesn't matter with injectors @ the valve though
the dyno geeks reminded me that no matter what 
the fuel rail was as hot as the motor & was heating the fuel just fine
thee BMW touring car had a second set of injectors firing towards the inlet of the stacks, you could see a vaporized fuel cloud floating above them @ idle
it was 300 hp 2.0 pump gas w cat na
















_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 6:01 AM 10-3-2009_


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 6:07 AM 10-3-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

you could probably fit 4 liters of water in your motor 2










_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 5:57 AM 10-3-2009_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_
well, actually only pre turbo, post turbo/charger it's 2L 
2Liters @atmo is same volume as 2L at 60psi
think about a 2L bottle, no seal it contails 2L of air, at 60psi it still only contains 2L of air just at higher density.
higher density and pressure help heat transfer.

yah duh 
15psi is roughly 2x atmospheric pressure so 2x the # of air molecules = 4L @ atmosphere. we are talking about heating and cooling molecules not volumes or density
I was using equivalents. 
If you wanna get technical, we can start talking in Moles and specific heat if you want,,,,,,or just go with the broad easy to follow stuff that gets the premis across.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

the formula one cars from the late 70s ie hondas breakthrough turbo designs, used the exhaust manifold to heat the toluene. why? becuase toluene dosent like to burn when it cold..... again xylene is not reccommened that **** is intense


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

are they running on alcohol or paint thinner today
50% E 25%X 25%91










_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 5:56 AM 10-3-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

is that a joke? because if its not you need to learn about aromatic hydrocarbons


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

cars running wot all day long on a closed course have different requirements than daily drivers.
yah the injectors are probably too close to the valves to really have time to absorb the heat from the air,,,, except at idle. 
and the cooling of the fuel would increase the time to fully vaporize. 
so unless I pull the injectors back to the plenum on the stock 16v manifold, cooling the fuel is a loose/ loose idea.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:39 AM 10-3-2009_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

from da wiki on F1 fuels
The fuel used in F1 cars is fairly similar to ordinary gasoline, albeit with a far more tightly controlled mix. Formula One fuel can only contain compounds that are found in commercial gasoline, in contrast to alcohol-based fuels used in American open-wheel racing. Blends are tuned for maximum performance in given weather conditions or different circuits. During the period when teams were limited to a specific volume of fuel during a race, exotic high-density fuel blends were used which were actually heavier than water, since the energy content of a fuel depends on its mass density.
To make sure that the teams and fuel suppliers are not violating the fuel regulations, the FIA requires Elf, Shell, Mobil, and the other fuel teams to submit a sample of the fuel they are providing for a race. At any time, FIA inspectors can request a sample from the fueling rig to compare the "fingerprint" of what is in the car during the race with what was submitted. The teams usually abide by this rule, but in 1997, Mika Häkkinen was stripped of his third place finish at Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium after the FIA determined that his fuel was not the correct formula, as well as in 1976, both McLaren and Penske cars were forced to the rear of the Italian Grand Prix after the octane mixture was found to be too high.
Indy car fuels
Fuel
[edit] Methanol
At its inception, the IRL used methanol racing fuel, which had been the de facto standard in American open wheel racing since the 1964 Indianapolis 500 Eddie Sachs - Dave MacDonald crash. Methanol had long provided a safer alternative to gasoline. It had a higher flash point, was easily extinguishable with water, and burned invisible. With the IRL's introduction of night races in 1997, the burning of methanol fuel was visible for the first time, seen with a light blue haze. With this in mind, in an effort to make it more visible in case of fire during daylight hours, additional mixtures were placed in the fuel. As a safety feature, the methanol would burn with a color.
[edit] Ethanol
In 2005, driver Paul Dana brought the sponsorship of the Ethanol Promotion and Information Council (EPIC) to his IndyCar team. EPIC is a consortium of ethanol producers that advocate the increased use of ethanol. EPIC were anxious to address public concerns of that era that ethanol use led to engine damage and poor performance when used in street cars. As a marketing effort, it was believed that sponsoring an IndyCar could be used as a tool to promote education and awareness of ethanol use, and to curb the spread of erroneous information.
Dana was killed in a crash in 2006, but the IRL had already begun a transition to ethanol. For the 2006 season the fuel was a 90%/10% mixture of methanol and ethanol. Starting in 2007, the league advertised "100% Fuel Grade Ethanol," the first competitive series to utilize renewable fuel. The mixture was actually of 98% ethanol and 2% gasoline, provided by Lifeline Foods of Saint Joseph, Missouri. The additives satisfies the U.S. government's demand that the alcohol be unfit for human consumption, and adds visible color in case of fire.
To compensate for the loss of power due to the use of ethanol, the displacement was increased back to 3.5L. Since ethanol gets better fuel mileage than methanol, the fuel tanks in the car were decreased.
Compared to methanol, human contact with the current ICS fuel is much less harsh, and the fumes much less irritating. The fumes are often compared with the sweet smell of apple cider or apple cobbler. Unlike methanol, ethanol is not caustic and does not cause chemical burns when it comes in contact with the skin. It also is less polluting when spilled compared to methanol.




_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:41 AM 10-3-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

you must have a tap in your fuel hose to pee in the cup after you finish the race, even in scca
gas is oxygenated in winter
saving winter gas for summer racing is illegal


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

no question mark - rhetoric
they're running e100 here in bonner springs kansas








EDIT: the guys that told me e100 were just guessing...........


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 6:32 PM 10-3-2009_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

fyi, toluene is found in 30-35 pecent of all gassoline blends in the US and up to 50 percent of gasolines make up in europe..... im not talking about f1 racing today im talking about wen turbo 1.5L eneinges were comming out making 1500 bhp


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

also the league regulates the octane level... point in fact the other 30 percent of the f1 fuel was made up of n-heptane with a zero octane rating.. why? to keep the fuel within the octane limits set by the league


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

so maybe an auxillary fuel cel of toluene and duel fuel/ignition/boost maps all tagged to a toggle switch on the dash.
or dual injectors and staged injection using the ms trigger switching software
so we're basically back to water/meth injection concept.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

dont forget that meth injection is worthless to e85
just spray in water
so we're actually back to ....


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_dont forget that meth injection is worthless to e85
just spray in water
so we're actually back to ....

water + ethanol = acid
either gas = w/m injection
or
E85 and more intercooling (a/c, bigger ic, or whatever)


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (elRey)*

how does water and ethanol make acid?


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I probably read 2 totally different things on different subjects and combined the two in my head for a totally false conclusion.
Sorry.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (elRey)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I never thought of that possibilty and thought I may have overlooked something in my assumptions. 
you probably grabbed onto the ethanol corrosion stuff and linked it to acid. corrosion is such a bad technical term, because it does not specify the methode.
I was getting ready to do the whip out the chemistry equations to see what I missed.
I think I may fined a use for those cis cold start valves laying around.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 7:58 AM 10-4-2009_


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