# 16v(9a) and 8v(rd/pf) block....



## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

i posted this in the 16v forums and have 111 views, not one answer. so i figured since ive read the blocks for all the "small blocks" are very similar in terms of rods and cranks, you 8v guys can give me some specs on the crank and rods.

i'm doing a rebuild of the 9a engine i have swapped into my coupe. starved the motor for oil one day for a few seconds at high rpm (5th gear 5.5k rpm). basically destroyed the cyl #1 rod journal. the bearing disappeared. 
my question is about purchasing a europec oem replacement crank. they have short nose and long nose, and with timing options... im not sure about what they mean. the stroke is 92.8mm which is right, but i don't understand the long and short nose option.
i would also like to ask about the rods in my 9a vs the rods i have for a rd/pf 8v. the pin diameter is i believe 20 or 21mm. and the length is identical to the 9a also? can i swap over the rods and reuse my pistons? the pistons are in good shape.
i couldn't sleep, so i got on the comp and have been searching since 3am eastern time. i can't seem to find the rod specs on a factory 9a or a factory rd/pf . thanks in advance. would really like to have her back up and running within this month


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

WolfzGangVR6 said:


> i posted this in the 16v forums and have 111 views, not one answer.


Wow, that's not a good sign :sly:

Long nose is for newer engines, around the mkIV I think, which have a chain driven oil pump. The short nose is for the intermediate shaft driven oil pump engines. They also have different a different crankshaft bolt size. As for timing, I really don't understand what that has to do with the crankshaft. Some newer management systems use a trigger wheel bolted to the rear of the crankshaft and a Hall sender stuck into the motor block to read revolutions. Maybe that is what any reference to timing is about as you need the bolt holesin the crankshaft counterweight to mount the trigger wheel.

As for the rods you will have to be a little more clear on just what information you need. By the way, what manual are you using as it sounds like none which is bad for what you want to do.


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

first let me say thanks for the reply. from one car guy to another i really appreciate it.
i have a 9a which is basically an 8v block but bored over to make it a 2L. i'm running cis-e, so a crankshaft trigger wheel is not needed. using what info your supplying me tells me that i need a short nose without the timing option (intermediate shaft driven oil pump). 
with the rods i am asking for the length and wrist pin diameter(for a pf/rd 8v). I know the 9a has a 20mm wrist pin. im almost sure about the pf/rd engine having the same wrist pin diameter, but not sure on the rod length. the connecting rod to crankshaft bore is also the same, except for the 1.6L engine where it is smaller. i'm not using a manual, but using multiple web sites(u.s. and across the pond :laugh, to gather my information. 
anymore info you can give me is greatly appreciated.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

9a is a little different than an 8v with a larger bore. The lower cylinder block casting is made a little wider for clearence of the larger crankshaft stroke used. The boore is larger but it has a longer stroke also to make the 2 liter size. A standard 8v block can be used but a little machineing has to be done to clear the rod end swing, plus a few other small details like oil pump shaft and intermediate shaft. The 9a also has oil squirters installed if I remember.

The rod length is the same for the PF/RD as well as the other 1.8L engines, 144mm. The 1.6 used 136mm if I recall, like the PG motor. The 9a uses a 20mm pin like the 1.8L engines. The rods also share the same large ends.

I suggest buying some research manuals/books if you plan to get serious about these things. Yes, there is a lot of information to be found on the Internet, but some things are very very hard to find and some are just not posted (that I ever found). It is always nice to have something at hand or that you can carry to the car or work bench instead of always sitting at the computer. Just a thought.


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

thanks waterwheels :thumbup::thumbup:,
so i'm going to need to buy a new crank due to the stroke difference between the pf/rd and 9a which seems to be in the crank, correct? (just to clarify i'm trying to use the 9a block not the 8v block), but i can use my pf/rd rods in place of my 9a rods. this saves me alot of money. as i said the pistons are still in great shape in the 9a, just the cyl# 1 rod bearing spun and damaged the crankshaft. i have a bently for mk3 because i built a vr6t years ago and swapped it into my old 4dr mk2 jetta. i'm pretty versed in the mk2 world and have built aba/rv blocks and many other combos. the 16v is slowly becoming less of a grey area to me. i do agree it's so much better to have a manual to turn pages in then cleaning your hands to work with a laptop :laugh:.

so last question waterwheels, the cranks have different strokes also which is why i need a 16v 9a crank to keep my 2.0l as it came factory?


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## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

you could save your self a ton of time and money by tossing the 9A to the side get an ABA. buy ABF hi comp pistons from who ever and slap the pl/9A head on there you will need to keep your 9a i/s the gear and oil pump. if the oil pump is shot i think balancer shaft 1.8t (AEB) oil pump will work with a different pick up tube. then you could run odb1 or 2 on it and make more power. 

whats that crank going to cost? 
i rather get the aba with that nice rod ratio. makes for a smoother running motor.


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

the crank is going to cost 295 + shipping.ABF pistons will cost me 549 + the machine work to bore the aba to fit the 83mm pistons, and the purchase of the short block. although i would love a nice abf daily, i'll settle with a 9a daily for now. thanks for the input!!! if i'm not mistaken the aba has 82.5mm pistons..


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

I think before you get ahead of yourself or start spending any money, you need to describe in clear text just what you plan to build here. The engine parts being thrown around are not all compatable with each other sometimes. There are rod lengths to concider, block heights to concider, compression heights, strokes, pins, etc etc to all work out. You just can't say I am going to use this with that and it will produce my dream engine without working all the details out. First indicate what parts you want to combine and if you can't do the math then someone here can help, but you can't just want and hope they will work together.


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## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

WaterWheels said:


> I am going to use this with that and it will produce my dream engine without working all the details out............... you can't just want and hope they will work together.


well you can then post pictures of the carnage. 
but really the the 9A is very old and parts are not as plentiful as they once where. thats why i would rather have the ABA.


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

WaterWheels said:


> I think before you get ahead of yourself or start spending any money, you need to describe in clear text just what you plan to build here. The engine parts being thrown around are not all compatable with each other sometimes. There are rod lengths to concider, block heights to concider, compression heights, strokes, pins, etc etc to all work out. You just can't say I am going to use this with that and it will produce my dream engine without working all the details out. First indicate what parts you want to combine and if you can't do the math then someone here can help, but you can't just want and hope they will work together.


i want to use my 9a. i've been looking for the specs of the aforementioned parts. the whole reason for my thread. i'm just looking to rebuild the 9a for daily use. no forced induction, not a wild N/A motor either. i want to reuse my 9a pistons, and replace the rods and crank due to the damage. the pf/rd rods should work(same specs and wrist pin diameter. same block height as the 16v). the only thing i'm not sure about is the 8v crank vs the 16v crank. is it possible to use the 8v crank in the 9a block? and is the stroke the same as the 16v crank? 



Sparknock said:


> well you can then post pictures of the carnage.
> but really the the 9A is very old and parts are not as plentiful as they once where. thats why i would rather have the ABA.


i agree that the aba is easier to get my hands on. but i'm looking to save money and just use my 9a, buying the least amount of parts to get it back to running condition. i'm going to buy all new bearings and gaskets, new hardware, and a clutch becuase its out might as well. but if i can save on the crank and rods, it keeps my cost down and completion date closer.


thanks for the input so far, it has been a great help


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

WolfzGangVR6 said:


> . . . the only thing i'm not sure about is the 8v crank vs the 16v crank. is it possible to use the 8v crank in the 9a block? and is the stroke the same as the 16v crank?


Yes and no depending on the 8v you are talking about. If you mean the 1.8L 8v engines like the PF then no as the stroke is smaller and the combination will not work. If you mean an 8v 2.0L engine like the Audi 3A then yes as they are the same stroke (and part). The engine size is made up not only from the bore but also the stroke of the crankshaft. The 1.8L engines have an 86.4mm stroke while the 2.0L engines use a 92.8mm stroke. If you were to use the 1.8L carnkshaft the pistons would sit too low in the cylinder at TDC and your compression would be real low. This goes back to what I said about your not being able to just mix up parts at will even if they "fit" as they may not have all the correct demensions to work.

You will need a crankshaft with the same 92.8mm stroke like from a 9A or Audi 3A or 6A. The ABA might work but I can't say for sure as it carries a different suffix on the part number. It could be due to the machined pads and threaded holes for the trigger wheel, but I don't know.


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## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

well if you just rebuilding a 9a 16v i know where i canget a whole short block from i need the head let me know what you need we might could split the cost of the motor.


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

WolfzGangVR6 said:


> the crank is going to cost 295 + shipping.


I have TWO 9A crankshaft in very good condition. Make an offer plus shipping from Canadia, and one, or both of them, can be yours!

:thumbup:


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

WaterWheels said:


> Yes and no depending on the 8v you are talking about. If you mean the 1.8L 8v engines like the PF then no as the stroke is smaller and the combination will not work. If you mean an 8v 2.0L engine like the Audi 3A then yes as they are the same stroke (and part). The engine size is made up not only from the bore but also the stroke of the crankshaft. The 1.8L engines have an 86.4mm stroke while the 2.0L engines use a 92.8mm stroke. If you were to use the 1.8L carnkshaft the pistons would sit too low in the cylinder at TDC and your compression would be real low. This goes back to what I said about your not being able to just mix up parts at will even if they "fit" as they may not have all the correct demensions to work.
> 
> You will need a crankshaft with the same 92.8mm stroke like from a 9A or Audi 3A or 6A. The ABA might work but I can't say for sure as it carries a different suffix on the part number. It could be due to the machined pads and threaded holes for the trigger wheel, but I don't know.


yea i wasn't sure about the cranks being stroked differently which is why i have been asking around. i will reuse my pistons, the pf rods and a new crank. thanks for the input very valueble.



Sparknock said:


> well if you just rebuilding a 9a 16v i know where i canget a whole short block from i need the head let me know what you need we might could split the cost of the motor.


not sure where your located, but unless it's around 150 dollors on my end, i rather just buy the crank new (even though it's not a forged unit), the rest of the block is fine.



Mtl-Marc said:


> I have TWO 9A crankshaft in very good condition. Make an offer plus shipping from Canadia, and one, or both of them, can be yours!
> 
> :thumbup:


 what kind of price are you thinking? P.M. me and we can talk. however i have a lead on new forged and cast cranks, but i'm up for any offers you want to present.

thanks for all the responses this far, more like the old vortex i rememebr!:beer:


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

Our misunderstanding is all squared away... Mtl-marc is a stand up guy. Thanks very much for helping me out with my coupe build!!


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

:thumbup::beer:


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