# need help with lifter tap sound



## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

ok so i rebuilt a aba head. had it cleaned resurfaced, new dual springs with new seats. and stock retainers and valves. i did all this casue i figured it was something with head. go start the car up after put it all together and still the sound remains... what could sound or sounds like lifters taping


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Did you install new lifters?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

yea soaked them in oil for 2 days got all the air bubbles out and such


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)




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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Before you tore the head down did you notice if one of the plugs were blacker or more sooty than than the rest?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

na not really. but if they were then what could it be


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

Then it would direct you to what cylinder is the issue.


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

what kind of oil are you using?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

well before i rebuilt it was taping as well....then i had 20w30 conventional. and now after the rebuild im running 5w30


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

steven12345 said:


> well before i rebuilt it was taping as well....then i had 20w30 conventional. and now after the rebuild im running 5w30


Do you mean you were running 20W50?

5W-30 is too thin for a used MKIII ABA. Try running 10W40 or 20W50 per the owner's manual with a German oil filter, and report back.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

synethic?


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

steven12345 said:


> synethic?


doesn't make any difference what you run. Synthetic is going to leak out of places that conventional oil will not leak out of. Synthetic oil is runnier than the equivalent conventional oil.

Because of the oil pressure will be lower, and parts in a worn engine will make noise when you use a synthetic.

Just switch the car to a thicker conventional oil, and a German oil filter.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

maybe you got some bottom end bearing issues..


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

i check them as well everything is tight no out of the ordinary movement from the main or rod bearings


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

movement doesnt mean squat.

did you actually take the bearings apart and look at the shells for wear?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Yea all looked good


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

i got my sethiscope out to try and pin point it out... its deffinatly comeing from the head... i dont get this will be the 2 nd cylinder head 4th set of lifters, 1st set of new springs and seats.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

May be you should follow my advice and try the heavier weight oil and a German filter.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

ill try it to see what happens what is considered a german auto filter bousch?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

so I got a german oil filter and went with 10w40 oil still tapping


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)




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## echokid98 (May 18, 2007)

just run the car with the new oil for a while and see what happnes??? next oil change substitute a half quart or so for lucas oil stabilizer.:thumbup:


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## Geno-Bob (Feb 7, 2006)

Do the MKIII's really need 20w50?! I dunno, in my mind that just seems a little thick. I run 5w30 in the winter, and 10w30 in the summer. Should I be running something heavier also?

Thanks, 
Geno-Bob


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Geno-Bob said:


> Do the MKIII's really need 20w50?! I dunno, in my mind that just seems a little thick. I run 5w30 in the winter, and 10w30 in the summer. Should I be running something heavier also?
> 
> Thanks,
> Geno-Bob


30 weight oil is too thin for most applications. If you're where it gets cold in the winter, and is mild in the summer, you could get away with 0W/40 or 5W/40. But here in SoCal where I live I run 20W50 most of the year because we have weeks when the temp is over 100F, and 30 weight oil is to thin in the summer.


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## vizzy (Jul 14, 2010)

Geno-Bob said:


> Do the MKIII's really need 20w50?! I dunno, in my mind that just seems a little thick. I run 5w30 in the winter, and 10w30 in the summer. Should I be running something heavier also?
> 
> Thanks,
> Geno-Bob


Unless you live in an extreme hot climate NO you definitely DO NOT NEED 20w-50!!!!

If anything it will make the engine slower to have the oil circulating and building pressure!!!This is NOT what you want as it causes additional engine wear. 

The for temperate climates (most of the USA) the highest you should go is 10-40 (deep south, desert SW) ), while 10-30 is best for the rest of the country.

You should make sure you gradually clean up any engine carbon or sludge deposits not with a "engine flush" product (VERY DANGEROUS!!! DO NOT USE!!!) BUT use a HDEO!

If anything you might want to use a HDEO (High Detergent Engine Oil ) like Shell Rotella to make sure that you clean up any larger amount of deposits . I would use the HDEO over a period of several changes and then revert to a regular quality name brand dino oil.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

vizzy said:


> Unless you live in an extreme hot climate NO you definitely DO NOT NEED 20w-50!!!!
> 
> If anything it will make the engine slower to have the oil circulating and building pressure!!!This is NOT what you want as it causes additional engine wear.
> 
> ...


This has been discussed many times on Vortex.

I suggest you read the Owner's Manual that came with your car regarding suggested oil weights and temperatures. According to the VW MKIII Owner's Manual, 30W oil is not appropriate for most areas of the US and most operating conditions. According to Oil Manufacturers, 30W oil is only good to 90F. There is no advantage to running thin oil, for the average car owner. While there may be a very slight increase in MPG with lighter oils, it isn't enough to measure in a tank to tank comparison.

VW's recommendations may have changed for newer model cars, but with VW producing SUVs, they now have the same self-interest in recommending lighter weight oils as other SUV and Truck producing auto companies. Namely, when added together, the fractional energy saving in thousands of vehicles from recommending lighter weight oils allows them to build more gas guzzlers with penalty. Auto manufacturers are not in the business of maximizing your car's engines service lives, they exist to sell more cars and trucks.


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## vizzy (Jul 14, 2010)

germancarnut51 said:


> This has been discussed many times on Vortex.
> 
> I suggest you read the Owner's Manual that came with your car regarding suggested oil weights and temperatures. According to the VW MKIII Owner's Manual, 30W oil is not appropriate for most areas of the US and most operating conditions. According to Oil Manufacturers, 30W oil is only good to 90F. There is no advantage to running thin oil, for the average car owner. While there may be a very slight increase in MPG with lighter oils, it isn't enough to measure in a tank to tank comparison.
> 
> VW's recommendations may have changed for newer model cars, but with VW producing SUVs, they now have the same self-interest in recommending lighter weight oils as other SUV and Truck producing auto companies. Namely, when added together, the fractional energy saving in thousands of vehicles from recommending lighter weight oils allows them to build more gas guzzlers with penalty. Auto manufacturers are not in the business of maximizing your car's engines service lives, they exist to sell more cars and trucks.


So as long as your engine is in good condition there is no reason to use something like 20w-50 unless perhaps you live in a desert area of in locations in the deep south, and even then 10-40 is just fine as long as you are not driving at sustained speeds in excess of 100 mpg for hours. 

10w30 and 10w40 are the best compromise especially during cold temps. 

VWoA DID SPECIFICALLY STATE NOT TO USE A 5w-xx oil in our cars especially if driving at very high speeds for long periods of time. 

German if you look closely at that chart. I have it, it is only NON API versions of oil that have limited temprature charactristics, if the oil is API certified (in the circle symbol on the oil bottle) you will see that 10w-30 and 10w-40. Are rated for higher ambient temps.

As far as I know even back in the 90s there was NO NON API rated oil for sale in the USA, that chart is probably from the 70s. Why they never edited it is anyones guess.

Again as long as the multigrade oil is API certified it IS suitable for higher ambient temps. 

So in fact 10-30 and 10-40 API is good to extreme ambient temps in excess of typical temps in the USA.


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## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

Hey there,
My A3 was making a noise that I thought to be valve or lifter tap, turned out to be a bad water pump.
A simple test to check it out is to remove the belt that moves the pump and give it a start, if the noise is gone then you'll know.

Good luck and keep posting.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

cwcabrio said:


> Hey there,
> My A3 was making a noise that I thought to be valve or lifter tap, turned out to be a bad water pump.
> A simple test to check it out is to remove the belt that moves the pump and give it a start, if the noise is gone then you'll know.
> 
> Good luck and keep posting.


i totally forgot that the water pump can knock on these things.. its because they have such a deep pulley on them, and the belt gets a bit loose, then they knock..


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

its a brand new water pump but ill check it out


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## chasem407 (Feb 19, 2008)

post a video of this loud tap, I wanna hear how loud it actually is. 

I rebuilt my head on my AEG with new everything and I still get a tap. I cant hear it in the car, but with the hood popped, you can hear it.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

vizzy said:


> So as long as your engine is in good condition there is no reason to use something like 20w-50 unless perhaps you live in a desert area of in locations in the deep south, and even then 10-40 is just fine as long as you are not driving at sustained speeds in excess of 100 mpg for hours.
> 
> 10w30 and 10w40 are the best compromise especially during cold temps.
> 
> ...


 The page and the charts in my MKIII Owner's Manuals ( 95, 96, & 97) all state API Service SF or SG. The chart is not marked: "For Non API Oils" as you posted. 

Energy Conserving Rated 5W30 is rated for use below -20F up to 95F, along with 10W40. 

Standard Multi Grade 5W30 oil is rated below -20 to about 55F. 

What do you consider to be higher ambient temps? Standard Multi Grade 20W/50 is rated for use down to 5F and up over 100F+. There is no problem using it in most places in the U.S. 

A quote directly from my 95 Golf Owner's Manual printed directly below the oil weight chart: "When using SAE 5W-30 engine oil, avoid high speed long distance driving if outside temperature rises above the indicated limits.". 

This directly contradicts what you wrote/posted above. Where are you getting your information from? It's not from a VW MKIII Owner's Manual, is it? Do you even have the Owner's Manual/s for VW MKIII/s? 

I'm guessing NOT ! ! !


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

here a crappy video with no picture but this taken from on top on the valve cover area 
http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o232/ssudzina/?action=view&current=VID-20110316-00004.mp4 

http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o232/ssudzina/?action=view&current=VID-20110316-00004.mp4


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## vizzy (Jul 14, 2010)

Germancarnut: 

I have the manual for my 96 Golf and if you carefully look at the charts it DOES make a distinction between API and non API temp characteristics. Also mentioned the "energy conserving" (star burst symbol) rated type which also has wider ambient characteristics as well. 

I'm telling you that any oil with the API SL or later label on it IS suitable for more extreme ambient temps. 

The important thing is to know the API specifications of that multigrade oil.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

so from the sound it does sound like a lifter tap right?


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

vizzy said:


> Germancarnut:
> 
> I have the manual for my 96 Golf and if you carefully look at the charts it DOES make a distinction between API and non API temp characteristics. Also mentioned the "energy conserving" (star burst symbol) rated type which also has wider ambient characteristics as well.
> 
> ...


 don't listen to this guy. anybody can read the manual.


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## Geno-Bob (Feb 7, 2006)

steven12345 said:


> so from the sound it does sound like a lifter tap right?


 Thats what it sounds like to me. Anyone else?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)




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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

anyone else


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## chasem407 (Feb 19, 2008)

I guess thats what it sounds like, kinda hard for us to tell you anymore without actually seeing it


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## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

Sounds like a diesel engine. Is the cam stock?


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## vizzy (Jul 14, 2010)

VeeDoubleYouGuy said:


> don't listen to this guy. anybody can read the manual.


 But the problem is if you don't "understand" what the information is actually saying. 

I do, you don't. 

You need to _carefully reread the charts. _


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## Geno-Bob (Feb 7, 2006)

chasem407 said:


> I guess thats what it sounds like, kinda hard for us to tell you anymore without actually seeing it


 That is true, but if that is where the sound is coming from...?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

well iv never had a problem with lifter tap and have no idea what it sounds like.....does it sound similar to what i posted


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## oneslowjetta (Nov 18, 2010)

lucas + 10w30 :thumbup:


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

As for your oil 10w40 all year round. 

Now pull the valve cover use a use a 3/8 or 1/2 inch rubber fuel line. With one end in your ear the other at the suspected points that the noise is coming from. This should narrow it down if it is a lifter. 

A wrist pin may sound the same, how many miles are on the car/engine. 

Did you follow the directions about waiting 20 min. after the cam installation before cranking if not, maybe a bent valve 

The other thing is the valve installed hight if the seats were cut to high you may have to much clearance that the hyd. lifters can't over come. The BENTLEY manual gives this dimension


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Yeah, that does sound like a bad lifter. I have a noisy lifter when I start my engine cold that goes away (mostly) when the engine warms up, and that's exactly what it sounds like. 

But a bad rod bearing sounds very similar. 

If you've replaced the head, and replaced the lifters (got new ones right?), and you still have the same problem, then it isn't the head or the lifters. Have you tried attaching a mechanical oil pressure gauge to the oil pressure port on the cylinder head to see what the oil pressure in the head is? 

Did you pour in a synthetic oil or conventional oil?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

i did conventional oil. i had a gauge hooked up and the presure matched to what the bentley says. the motor was just rebuilt... checked over all the pins and rod bearings when i had the head off.... all where good.also when i installed the psitons i checked the wrist pins made sure they where in there tight with no sloppy lose movement. ima try another oil change with the lucas oil and if that dont work ima pull the head off again and pull the pistons to tripple check them again.... cause the car other then the taping runs perfect


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Just for the fun of it do a compression test


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

yea i did a compression test all the cylinders are the same a bit lower then stock casue im running a head spacer..but also checked my oil presure at the side the head.. at full warm at idle it sits at about 15psi 17ish psi


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

bump


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

to the top


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

k so i did a oil change added lucas and royal purple 10w 40 drove it for about 6hrs today and still nothing new still taping away..so im guessing i have to check the bottom end of the motor... i know the bearings are all good for the fact that i dont or havent seen pieces of metal floating around in the oil so all good there. could the piston wrist pin really be the problem.. i dont get it. if it just rotates and the piston rings keep it in place how could the wrist pin be making any sound.?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

I forgot to mention I just rebuilt the motor all new bearings and rings all the tolerances where perfect


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Before you pull it down bring it to TDC turn the crank 1/4 turn (or 90 deg.) pull the spark plugs stick your stethoscope in each plug hole. Now with a socket on the crank turn the crank 1/8 with a sharp movement try to hear if you have a bad wrist pin. The other way is to use a long (12 inch screwdriver) make sure there is no lag in the movement of the piston v crank


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Wrist pins making noise = yes they can if there is some damage done when installing the rods on the pistons. The symptom would be one pin a little tighter than the rest.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

So pretty much just listen for a loose sounding pin as if there is slack in the pin right?


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

yes with the pistons in mid stroke turn the crank back and forth as quick as possible to make a noise. Or check for slake in the movement of the piston the best way is to use a dial indicator through the plug hole. Or a dowel rod of wood once the piston is on its way down the cylinder see if you can push it down. You may be looking for a .002 or .003 if you don't hear it driving. 

one other question does the noise stop at any time when driving, does it get louder or quieter on accelerating or decelerating ????


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Certain rpms on its way up its quieter at idle u can here it and once u shift the rpms drop u hear it again


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Did you replace all the one time use or stretch bolts? I would go back and check the flywheel or flex plate bolts. it sounds as if the noise is quieter under acceleration when torque of the engine is holding things tighter than normal.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

well i checked the pistons threw the spark plug holes all good there and yes i changed to rod strech bolts. still sounds the loudest coming from the top of the motor. you can hear it threw the oil pan but not as loud and i even listened with that doctor scope thing right where the head and block meet all quiet just hear rotation sounds.


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## bigdave79 (Dec 23, 2009)

Figures nobody on this forum can think beyond stretching tires and asking what kind of oil the guy uses. 

I heard the audio and i can tell you thats on the top end of the motor like you suspect. Thats a lifter, and since you say you put new lifters in, the problem may be a blocked oil passage possibly from that head spacer you are using. Did you use silicone on anything upstream from the oil strainer in the pan?


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## VeeDoubleYouGuy (Nov 4, 2003)

again, you said you used your stethoscope so you can find out where it is coming from. also i might just try 100mL or so of lucas and see what it does. last time i suggested that i got blasted by others, but it worked for me and no problems 50k later so why not.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

na no silicone on the spacer.. i did pour in a half a bottle of lucas ima just run it for awhile to see what happens. i know i dont have a blockage in the head before i installed it i ran air threw and a pipe cleaners threw all the holes... donno about from the oil pump up to the head though


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## chasem407 (Feb 19, 2008)

Is the tap noticeable when the hood is closed? 

From the audio I cant tell how close you are holding the camera...Anyways, it could be normal, I have ALWAYS had a valve tap on my car, even when I completely rebuilt it. They are known for it..


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

its lower sounding with the hood closed


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Steven with the only place you hear this tap is the valve cover and you are on your what thirded set of lifters? Checking the oil galley in the head at this point can't hurt. Didn't you say you put a gage in the head that showed you had good oil pressure at that point.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Yea I got good presure in the head and I checked the gallies in the head before installing it.maybe I have a problem down below that the oil isn't geting up to fast. Enough


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Ill post a. Clearer video from diFfrent spots on the car


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Is it quiet when you start it cold. The 15 -17 psi when warmed up just sounds bad to me. My 200K mile old American iron has that for oil pressure when warmed up.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Cold start is the same. Hot or cold it sounds the same with that low psi what might thhe problem


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

steven12345 said:


> Cold start is the same. Hot or cold it sounds the same with that low psi what might thhe problem


 thats plenty, 15 psi @ idle.. 

my old diesel had 6 psi @ idle..


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

hum..... maybe i should just pull the motor and do another rebuild


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

steven12345 said:


> hum..... maybe i should just pull the motor and do another rebuild


 or buy a good used engine for like ~150-300 bucks..


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## chasem407 (Feb 19, 2008)

steven12345 said:


> hum..... maybe i should just pull the motor and do another rebuild


 ??? the car doesn't work? 

...all this over some tapping


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

I hooked a oil presure guage up one top of the oil filter houseing and that sits at bout 20psi at idle I got another clearer video I need to up load


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/l559/livewire785/?action=view&current=VID-20110323-00007.mp4 
http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/l559/livewire785/?action=view&current=VID-20110323-00007.mp4


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

bump


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## bigdave79 (Dec 23, 2009)

It sounds like one of your lifters arent getting oil, or drained and air is trapped inside of it.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

what would be the solution if my lifters have air in them


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

up


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## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

sent you a PM


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

so i pulled the cam to check the lifters... all that found out is that lifter wont fill up with oil. i pushed on the inside of the lifter no movement at all


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## 1997SLOW (Sep 10, 2011)

the lifters arent supposd to move that means there pumped up if they are spongey or springy ther prol not filling up and may be bad


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzK3...DvjVQa1PpcFNmBWkEKMkqFcv7Q-YscJiYF3Ih8iuM9vs=


go here lower the sound cause its quite loud nd its almost the same sound thats my car had major issues in which we thought it was the head turns out it was a excessive clearanc on 1and 3 pistons on the cylinder walls pistons were walking in the cylinder and causing a CLACK after the dwell periond and on the down stroke

check your bottom 

gl


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

aba bottom ends almost never get piston slap..

besides, pistons slap sounds WAY DIFFERENT than lifter tick, and comes from alot lower in the engine..

however, they DO QUITE OFTEN get noisy lifters!

drain a quart of oil out of your engine, add a quart of ATF (cheap stuff) to your engine, and drive it for a week or 2, or until you need to change your oil..

there are LOTS of detergents in the ATF that clean the inside of the lifters, and alot of times, from my experience, makes the lifters NOTICEABLY quieter, even on an engine with REALLY NOISY lifters...


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## Geno-Bob (Feb 7, 2006)

Glegor said:


> drain a quart of oil out of your engine, add a quart of ATF (cheap stuff) to your engine, and drive it for a week or 2, or until you need to change your oil..
> 
> there are LOTS of detergents in the ATF that clean the inside of the lifters, and alot of times, from my experience, makes the lifters NOTICEABLY quieter, even on an engine with REALLY NOISY lifters...


Ha, I never would have thought to put ATF in a 5-speed... ingenious! 

Geno-Bob


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## 1997SLOW (Sep 10, 2011)

not in the tranny in the engine


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