# Its finally happening.....



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

After planning on doing this for well over a year now, I have finally started my intake manifold modification.
Here is the basic principle... analyze the factory manifold and improve its faults.
To start with, basic engine intake design states that the larger an engine, the larger the plenum should be. A general rule is 75% of your displacement.
Both the 40mm and 50mm intakes were designed for a 1.8L engine, and have small plenums. The 42mm intake was designed for a 2.0 engine and therefore has a substantially larger plenum.
Everyone upgrades to the 50mm for better performance, but they only look at the runner size (specifically diameter). This does improve power, but the smaller plenum is less than ideal. The theory is that not only will a larger plenum breathe better up top, but it will also lessen the impulses that cause plate hop and rough idle with large cams.
Ok, so here we go!!!









In this first picture, you can clearly see the difference between the plenum size between a 42mm and a 50mm. Yes, the runner length is different also (1 inch on the upper) but I will get to that later...









So, off to the machine shop I go.....









Time to make some marks...

























First up is the 42mm......









































So far so good,.....

....next the 50mm....









Now it is time for a test fit.......
















A little adjusting needed.....

















And another test fit.....looks pretty _damn_ good!!!
























Another thing is runner length... both the manifolds have runners that are too long for ideal performance with cams and mods... I havn't finished my calculations yet, but I will be removing length from the runners and welding them back up. I will be tuning the runners to allow max 'boost' at somewhere around 6200-6500.... still researching...










Also....there is a 'insert' that sticks into the manifold for a bolt from the TB....it is quite large, and blocks direct flow from the TB into the first runner. 
It is hard enough for air to make this quick turn anyway, so it certainly does not need any restriction here. I am going to grind this totally off, shorten the bolt to match, and just leave the threaded flange on the outside to hold this bolt. I will be sure not to overtighten it, and I will use loc-tite of course.
You can see this obstruction here....

















Well, thats enough for today. I will post updates as I go.
**I intend on dynoing with the stock 50mm upper I already have on my car, then swapping this and redynoing.** 
I highly doubt I will be disappointed....







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

awesome man! defiently keep the pics comin. and of course do a review after youre done to let us know of any changes in performance. oh yeah how do you plan on routing the intake now since the manifold is prolly not gonna go as close to the firewall as it normally did


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## JettaManDan (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

can't wait to see the results!


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## Phobia16V (Aug 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_**I intend on dynoing with the stock 50mm upper I already have on my car, then swapping this and redynoing.** 
I highly doubt I will be disappointed....







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










Not to burst your bubble, but I doubt you're going to see any significant gains. You're not playing with enough power that small efficiency improvements like that are going to make any real difference. However, it's an interesting idea/project, and I'm curious to see the results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for trying something different.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*

Well, just as a side note, the euro market VR6 has a larger plenum than the US one, and makes more power. I think there is even a tuner that modifys the Vr6 intake for a larger plenum also.
I do not know enough about VR6 to quote names or numbers however.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GLI_DRIVER (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

That obstruction is surprising, i would of never thought it it would restrict air flow. good work! cant wait to see the dyno numbers. do you know a good welder?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (GLI_driver_found)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLI_driver_found* »_That obstruction is surprising, i would of never thought it it would restrict air flow. good work! cant wait to see the dyno numbers. do you know a good welder?


When you look in the intake, it is directly in the way of the first runner port. So when air hits this, it is forced around it, which pushes it away from the first port... 
Every little bit helps! And remember at 6000+ RPMs, you are moving a LOT of air....


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## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Phobia16V* »_
Not to burst your bubble, but I doubt you're going to see any significant gains. You're not playing with enough power that small efficiency improvements like that are going to make any real difference. However, it's an interesting idea/project, and I'm curious to see the results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for trying something different.

dave be nice! he might gain 50 horsepower from this then youll look like an ass cause youll be trying to make one!!!














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 16Vpassat (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Benbuilt4u)*

Cool idea/project. Can't wait to see some numbers.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

More power to you.








You still have to deal with the biggest restriction of all; the airflow plate. 

Cheers,
Pat


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Patrick Schmidt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Patrick Schmidt* »_More power to you.








You still have to deal with the biggest restriction of all; the airflow plate. 

Cheers,
Pat


I have some improvements for that also...... but thats next week!!!

SHHHHHH!!!!!


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## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

looks good bro. sad to see a bansaw on a 50mm though.








Curious if you are planning on doing anything with the cam chain indentation on the bottom of the runner? 
I have been toying witht he idea of making my own intake using a 50mm lower as a start.
can't wait to see the results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (rockin16v)*

also, i am guessing that you measured the distance from the new intake (near the TB) to the firewall. looks like iit is going to be tight.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (rockin16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rockin16v* »_Curious if you are planning on doing anything with the cam chain indentation on the bottom of the runner? 


Nothing you really can do.... I am going to smooth it up a little while I am in there... and I sort of think it may actually help, since it will speed up the air again that slowed down by the time it gets to that end of the plenum.....kind of like the manifolds you see that have angled plenums that get smaller as they go along.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (rockin16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rockin16v* »_also, i am guessing that you measured the distance from the new intake (near the TB) to the firewall. looks like iit is going to be tight.


Actually, its going to work out perfect....
Looking at the engine bay, it looks like I can shorten the runners about an inch before the plugs limit me.....which is fine because this plenum is about an inch deeper, so that will put it back to basically stock position for hooking up the TB plumbing....but still 1 inch shorter runners than it had orig.....win-win situation. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If there is enough clearence, I want to remove the 'skinny' section of the runners where they made it wide for the plugs.....I think it will still fit fine, I'll just have to pull the plug wires to remove








I'll do some more measuring tomorrow


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## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I never even realized that the plenums were different sizes.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

very interesting....


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## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (lugnuts)*

heh good work man, can't wait for the results


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Well, just as a side note, the euro market VR6 has a larger plenum than the US one, and makes more power. I think there is even a tuner that modifys the Vr6 intake for a larger plenum also.
I do not know enough about VR6 to quote names or numbers however.


The ABV "Euro" VR6 intake does have a bigger plenum, however the gains (if there are any) never were large enough to show up in 1/4mi runs on a VERY consistent car. That's running on a 2.8L motor though, so you might actually find gains vs a std 50mm vs your 50mm with the large plenum on a 2L motor.
Either way, intereresting stuff.


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## CT-gti (May 19, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

sweet project...results should be interesting...any future plans with the exhaust?...just an idea


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (CT-gti)*

If the dyno run afterwards shows some good results you might want to think of a price to charge to do this for someone.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (scottnbarb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scottnbarb* »_If the dyno run afterwards shows some good results you might want to think of a price to charge to do this for someone.










It will be cost prohibitive to make any profit. You need a 42mm upper, a 50mm upper....by the time the plenum is cut and welded, and the runners cut and shortened, and the inside cleaned up, I would have to sell it for many hundreds of dollers for it to be worth it.
Maybe 10-12 years ago it would have been a big seller, but the cars are now old and the majority of the owners are young kids. I've seen them lowball a guy selling a reguler 50mm for $200!! I remember when they were very hard to find, and went for $600+















I'm just trying to do something different, and push the envelope. I have a few other cool ideas that I will be showing in a few weeks....


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## AtariMasta (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Interesting... i'd like to know how it ends up..
-Luke


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## Rage In The Machines (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (AtariMasta)*

Powerdubs, that's cool of what you are doing, but wouldn't it better to send out the 42mm manifold and open to 52mm via that company that uses abrasive goop(can't remeber the name). BTW the car you had was that the Autotech show car circa 1985?


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## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Rage In The Machines)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rage In The Machines* »_Powerdubs, that's cool of what you are doing, but wouldn't it better to send out the 42mm manifold and open to 52mm via that company that uses abrasive goop(can't remeber the name). BTW the car you had was that the Autotech show car circa 1985?

the company you are refering to is EXTRUDE HONE. the only problem is they want $350 just to polish the inside of the manifold, could you imagine what it would cost to have them "open up " the manifold. but you could always call them and find out.








josh good luck with the project http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i really hope to see a gain in performance with your mod. then i could joint you in making fun of the nay sayers


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## robw_z (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Rage In The Machines)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rage In The Machines* »_Powerdubs, that's cool of what you are doing, but wouldn't it better to send out the 42mm manifold and open to 52mm

I don't think theres enough material there to hone out to 50mm and still support the plenum/TB.
-Rob


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## SII16V (Sep 17, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (robw_z)*

A very interesting project. But, I'd never cut up my 50. Took me too long to find back in the day.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (SII16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SII16V* »_A very interesting project. But, I'd never cut up my 50. Took me too long to find back in the day.


Oh,...I had a spare upper just for this purpose. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Nice work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Eject (Aug 14, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Why not try a Badger 5 intake manifold.
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk....html
I've also seen a place that will make a custom intake manifold out of bent piping.
If you have access to some pipe and a pipe bender you can make a custom intake manifold.


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## H2Zero (Apr 25, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Eject)*

Will this be a good replacement for the intake.... Then the whole fuel system has to be changes as well....


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## nimbusgti (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (H2Zero)*

how much power gain are you going for? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
its looking good so far man


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## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Maybe 10-12 years ago it would have been a big seller, but the cars are now old and the majority of the owners are young kids. I've seen them lowball a guy selling a reguler 50mm for $200!! I remember when they were very hard to find, and went for $600+
















ya, we just cram 10psi in the 42mm nowadays....this is a crazy project...wonder what made you think of this...lots of







, or something else...ha ha...I hope you see 10whp+ out of...that would rule...can't wait to see the results...


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PAGTI91)*

Start off with a fresh design, the stock intake has several design features that are severly limiting to ultimate high rpm power. The fact that the stock intake manifold falls off at 6300 rpm, yes 50mm included, makes me rather uninterested in playing with the stock manifold at all.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_the stock intake has several design features that are severly limiting to ultimate high rpm power. The fact that the stock intake manifold falls off at 6300 rpm, yes 50mm included, makes me rather uninterested in playing with the stock manifold at all.


Ummm, yea, it has limiting factors....small plenum size and long runners....

....Oh wait....







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Ok....just a few pics for an update...
I removed the insert that was restricting flow to the first runner...it came out great. While I was in there, I polished the inside of the plenum and the runners... hard to tell from the flash on the camera.


















A little comparo.....

Before

















After

























Here you can see right inside from the TB where the restriction used to be..









And the same shot with the runners attached so you can see the nice clear shot to the first runner now!!








Then since I was already with grinder in hand, I smoothed off the casting marks on the runners on the outside. (always hated those)









All I have to do now is measure and cut the runners shorter, then drop it off at the welders to be put back together. After that, just a little paint and it'll look good as new.





























_Modified by PowerDubs at 8:02 PM 5-26-2003_


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

Ummm, yea, it has limiting factors....small plenum size and long runners....

....Oh wait....







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









What does plenum size and runner length have to do with the fact that the throttle body is physically too small to flow sufficiently above 6k rpm? It should also be mentioned that relocating the cold start to the plenum and removing the cold start system from the lower runners would be more benificial to overall flow than tuning runner lengths.
Sure this gets cool points, but my personal opinion is that it is a wasted effort unless you increase the actual throttle body opening by at least 3 square inches. 


_Modified by 130_R at 10:00 AM 5-27-2003_


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (130_R)*

I agree with 130_R. Hook up a vacuum gauge to the intake manifold. As the revs climb, the motor will start to pull more vacuum, indicating a major restriction upstream. I don't think anything short of a major overhaul of the throttle body and air flow plate will change that.
Cheers,
Pat
p.s. the vacuum reading were with schricks. YMMV


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Patrick Schmidt)*

Guys, I've never said this was gods gift to manifolds, certainly not nearly as good on flow as your horns Pat.
Why is it that people automatically say if something isn't the best, then it is ****?? Is there no in between? That really irks me. "Oh, you don't have Schricks, you suck" "You don't have Badger's, you suck"
While this isn't the 'ultimate' power, it will be a definate improvement, and is fairly cheap and 'stock' usefullness.
You mention the engine pulling vacuum at higher revs....this is the whole reason for a larger plenum... it acts as a 'reserve'. This is well documented in plenty of hot-rod books. Barnes and Nobles has a lot of good reading and the coffee is not half bad either.
As far as restrictions further upstream, I have ways to improve those also. Not complete solutions I know, but improvements none the less.
We all know there is a lot of power hidden in the stock intake system, just bolting on some ITB's proves this. I am just finding other ways to obtain _some_ of it.
Working our way upstream from the manifold, first thing we have is the TB. For this area, to improve flow, I have picked up a Velocity big bore TB. It has larger plates and slimmed shafts. That will improve that area a lot.









Next up is the actual intake tubing itself. For this, I aquired a ABD pipe. While virtually useless on a stock engine, it may be of help here. At the very least, it could not hurt, and I only paid $30 for it.









Further upstream is the dreaded airplate itself. Since I have chosen to stay with my motronic, I am stuck with the plate. I'll have to resort to other means of improving flow here.
The stock plate is flat on both sides, and the air hits it like a brick wall. I have aquired a 'euro' VWMS CIS system, which I am going to hybrid into my motronic.
Look at the bottom of the euro fuel plate and you will see that the plate has a rounded ring around it which smooths out the incoming air and directs it better. 
Less turbulance = more flow.
Also take notice that the crossbrace underneath can be cut down substantially to further improve flow.

































And finally for the airbox itself, I will be using a Eurosport box... it was a package deal with the TB.








As you can see, I've thought about this, and tried to make improvements where I can. The head I will be using is ported and angledecked, brospeed header, tt 55mm cat, and Borla exhaust. 
Everything should work well together. I think that the flow plate mods, TB, and intake manny will all be good improvements. Even if I only get 2hp from each, thats 6 hp that everybody else ignores.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

I never said it was ****, I was trying to help you out. I applaud your efforts, but at the same time I also think you're concentrating too much on the things that are going to makes matters worse as you progress. The airflow plate isn't very conducive to running any sort of big cam on a stock car. As you clean up the tract, the de-restricted flow is just going to accentuate the pulses from lopey cams that will make the plate bounce, and ultimately make the car a bear to drive. 
Just trying to help.
Cheers,
Pat


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Patrick Schmidt)*

At the current, I am 'only' going to be running Kent 258's, as I will be auto-xing and backroads.
I won't have any idle problems with those, but if I ever upgrade in the future thats ok, because it is a playcar and not driven in traffic.
BTW, that is another benefit of the larger plenum, reduced intake pulsing/plate hop. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'd like to hear further discussion on the cold start however. I don't think this has ever been mentioned anywhere.


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## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

damn it, let the man play with his tools! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 20V'er (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (baupfhor)*

And I thought I was going to be cool, because I cleaned my 50 up and smoothed it out. Then polished parts of it and now its at the powder coaters. Oh well, time for me to think of something else to try and be cool with. Maybe, I'll have to polish my hood support or something silly like that.


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Good lord man, stop taking things so damn seriously. I am only offering my *opinion*. 


_Modified by 130_R at 6:56 PM 5-27-2003_


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## Scoobyrooo (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (130_R)*

why does everyone have to say something bad when someone tries to modify his or her car??







Let PowerDubs do what he wants to do. If you don't like it that's your opinion, if you think it's cool..great. Well for now, I will leave you all with a good-bye......SCOOBYROOOOOOOOOO








Oh, good job, and good luck PowerDubs. Hope to see you at the track.


_Modified by Scoobyrooo at 7:15 PM 5-27-2003_


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## Phobia16V (Aug 12, 2000)

$0.01 - Interesting idea, I'm curious to see how well it works(if at all).
+
$0.01 - I think that your time/effort/money/resources could be better spent in other areas.
--------------
My $0.02


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## danny_16v (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*

I admire your ingenuity and will to experiment and try new things. Thats awesome!!! I dont necessarily think its going to be a super fast 16v but attention to detail and little things adds up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## torque_steer (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

I've seen this done before with the advantage of a Extudehoned plenum. The results were not worth the effort


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (torque_steer)*

Its worth what the owner puts in.


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## wolfsburgdub (May 27, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

so is the stock 1.8l 16v intake 42mm or 50mm and where can i get a bigger one?


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## sloppychicken (Jan 28, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (wolfsburgdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wolfsburgdub* »_so is the stock 1.8l 16v intake 42mm or 50mm and where can i get a bigger one?























Stock for the 1.8L 16v is 40mm
2.0L 16v is 42mm


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (sloppychicken)*

Last update for about a week.....

I measured and cut the runners today..... I took out a little over 1 1/2 inches, which should tune the resonance boost for approx 6000 RPM.
I then dropped off the pieces of the manifold at the shop to be blasted, chamfered, and welded. It should be ready in about a week. I'll be sure to get pics.


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## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

i would have to agree that these efforts could have been better spent elsewhere or in another way (but i do realize its your time and money)....
the same time and cost that went into this manifold could have gone into welding a box section or tube onto the 50mm runners instead of the stock plenum. you would get your "ideal" plenum displacement and a more symetric design. also you would be able to use a different TB (like a single plate ford TB from the yard) and aim it anyway you wanted.
you could probably have even had a new upper manifold made out of steel or aluminum tubing, fab'ed some velocity stacks that mount to each runner on the inside of the plenum and had something that would flow better than the stock runners. when you start from scratch you dont have to deal with factory "mistakes".


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## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

blah blah blah...that would run like he11 and look like it too...
I think he's just seeing what he can do with some stock parts...still look original but make you wonder why it lays more down than most (if it does I am not saying it will cause I have never seen the setup or him or his car)...
but really enough of the I have another idea people...why not give some constructive criticism...if a guys putting a neuspeed 2.0 SC on his car I don't try and give alternatives after he bought it...just give ideas/props to make what he IS doing better...


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

Ok, lets see.....
I have managed to get a very near 'ideal' plenum size using factory parts. The engineers at Vw are very good at what they do, I am just tweaking it a little for my application. A tube plenum is better suited to FI applications, as the rounded walls are not as suited to bouncing back the waves which is a main goal to obtain power NA.
Single plate TB's are notoriously horrible at part throtle response and modulation. The reason they work on say a Vr6 for example is because of two reasons. 
#1 - the engine managament system is designed to work with them.
#2 - the TB itself has 'ramps' cast into it to manipulate airflow and make it appear to be proggresive.
If you do some research into people who have shaved these ramps on a VR6 TB in search of more HP, you will see that they have driveability issues.
Besides, a stock single plate VR6 TB flows only _marginally_ better than a standard 16v TB. People automatically assume that the one larger plate flows more, and they completely discount the smaller plate on the 16v unit. The Velocity unit I purchased above will be more than sufficent for my needs.
Why mess with rerouting intake plumbing and rigging up new throtle cables and idle & WOT switches?
As far as 'aim it any way I wanted' for the TB.... I really can't think of a much better way to aim it,....not one that would be worth screwing with the factory position and plumbing that I was able to retain.
Look again at the internal pics of the runners...they are very close to the shape of velocity stacks already.....again the Vw engineers did a great job.









No need to start from scratch to improve factory 'mistakes'....just realize why they did what they did, and work from there.
The factory knew the 50mm made more power up top, the had to change that for US market.
The factory knew the larger plenum worked better on the 2L, thats why they put it on the 42mm.
I am just combining the 2. I will make more power, and still have a factory looking manifold, using factory intake and TB hooks-ups. Win-Win http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***I'll make a friendly wager***
I am going to dyno the car with the stock 50mm upper, then with this custom one. If anyone thinks they can make an upper that makes more power than mine, I'm up for some compeitition.
Bring your upper manifold to the shop the day I dyno. We'll dyno mine, then yours on my engine. If yours makes more power, I'll pay for the dyno run you did, and buy drinks at the bar afterwards. If you loose, you have to pay for the dyno run you did and drinks.
Some rules~
Your upper has to mount onto the stock 50mm lower.
You can either use the stock TB mount and plumbing, or whatever TB you want to rig....but you have to supply intake plumbing to match, so it will hook up to the motronic airflow plate. It also needs to have idle & WOT switchs and hook up to the stock throtle cable.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Lets have some fun!!


----------



## dallasw (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

I like where this is going, can I watch???? PowerDubs, I hope this works well. I myself think it would be an improvement. Did you dyno before so you know how much of a gain you would get? Keep it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (dallasw)*

Dude, even if you come out of this at a total loss (not saying you will), major props for going out of the norm and putting your head and research into trying. I can't wait to see the results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TechSupportGuy (May 14, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (baupfhor)*

This has to be the coolest thing I have ever seen anyone do to a 16v.


----------



## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PADILLA)*

mmmm


_Modified by PAGTI91 at 4:56 AM 5-29-2003_


----------



## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PADILLA)*

mm...me looked to quick...thats not A/W IC is it, just mad big plenum right??


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PAGTI91)*

Ok guys.... more exciting news. (to me anyway







)

I had bought my Kent 258's when my old 16v was a daily driver. I thought about this, and since it is now strictly a playcar, I don't need a smooth idle, or low rpm power...
Might as well match up the cams to get the maximum gain out of this manifold.
I just bought - 










...and a set of TT springs...

Does anyone know what #'s KV was putting down with this combo??
BTW, the Kent 258's are avail, preferably local sale in NJ.


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

This is an awesome piece of work (and write-up!). Just curious where you got the info "...plenum should be 75% of displacement..." stuff? I'm the thermal-Schrick guy from the VR6 boards... on my first manifold I enlarged the plenum to match the euro manifolds and I felt like there was a lag in throttle response; like all that air was somehow slowing the pulses down. This was not a very elaborate or conclusive test, just something I thought I felt, which could be explained by a number of things I did to that poor manifold. Let us know how it works.


----------



## G60perfection (Oct 30, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

(PowerDubs), That is a neat, classic idea you came up with, great write-up for those who have the skill to achieve this mod. That is very original and unique, and we all know that some people just talk sh**t about nice things, which gets on my nerves, but that's just the way it is. In my opinion, your idea will result in definite hp. According to facts, more air=more horsepower http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Good job, and I hope the project turns out well. It'll be well worth it


----------



## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (G60perfection)*

I'm no longer a 16v owner but this idea intrigues me. I give a definete http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for having the cojones to chop that 50mm intake up. 
Definetly want to see the results!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (drader)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drader* »_Just curious where you got the info "...plenum should be 75% of displacement..." stuff?....... on my first manifold I enlarged the plenum to match the euro manifolds and I felt like there was a lag in throttle response; like all that air was somehow slowing the pulses down. 


The plenum size is seen in some places as 75%, some places as 80%, etc... but it is understood that the larger the engine, the larger the plenum should be.
In the 16v case, the plenum size inadequacy was obvious and needed an upgrade based upon trying to use a 1.8 intake on a 2.0 engine.
In your case, you were trying to use a larger plenum from a 2.9 engine on a 2.8 engine. If the stock 2.8 plenum was already of correct size, you very well could have made the plenum _too_ large for your engines needs.
Having a plenum that is too large *does* reduce the pulses and decrease throtle response.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Ok, guys..... I just got a call from the welder....the intake is done.
Unfortunately, I missed his call and he closed at 12 on Sats, so I will have to pick it up on Mon.
I can't wait to see it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PerfectGLi (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

You're the man. Make one for me too








I'm very curious about the outcome...


----------



## torque_steer (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (TechSupportGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TechSupportGuy* »_This has to be the coolest thing I have ever seen anyone do to a 16v.


you need to surf the internet a bit more to see real ingenuity


----------



## Rays-Rocco (Aug 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

cool idea!! can't wait to see the number.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (rroyce4u)*

Well, got out of bed at 5am this morning and went to the shop to pick it up.
All it needs now is some paint, and it will be good to go.
Here are the pics of it in the buff. The reflection from the cleaned areas and off the shiny beads themselves make it hard to see how great the quality of the welds came out. 
I tried to get a close up so you can see the weld....
After I paint it, you will hardly be able to tell it is not factory.


----------



## GLI_DRIVER (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (GLI_driver_found)*

very nice welding.


----------



## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (GLI_driver_found)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
can't wait to see it on your car and on the dyno


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (skillton)*

very nice work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

wow man that looks awesome


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (ValveCoverGasket)*

Ok, to answer a question I keep getting....
Theres no need to grind down any welds,... the parts were chamfered before assembly, so the welds are pretty much flush.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Quality!


----------



## nimbusgti (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

amazing work my friend... how much did they bag you for the welding? i bet it was worth every penny becase that mannifold looks sick. i cant wait to see some numbers!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 16Vpassat (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (nimbusgti)*

Thats looking pretty beefy! I can't wait to see the results. What type of motor/cam setup are you putting this on?


----------



## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16Vpassat)*

Looking beauteous. What color are you thinking?


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (sold on expense)*

Looks like a nice weld job. Aluminum is hard. i wan't dyno sheets!
Oh, and as for the question below...i am gonna guess semi-gloss black, because powerdubs is a bit of a function over form type of person...and the paint is probably just to keep you guys from yelling "PAINT IT!"

_Quote, originally posted by *sold on expense* »_Looking beauteous. What color are you thinking?


----------



## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (sold on expense)*

he's gonna paint it lime green and put stickers allover it


----------



## Rays-Rocco (Aug 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Nice weld job! Have you thought about polishing it?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (sold on expense)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sold on expense* »_Looking beauteous. What color are you thinking?

I have high temp ceramic 'cast' aluminum color paint. It is a more natural look than the normal aluminum color paint.
I was going to make the letters baby blue like the orig, but I could not find a suitable blue for that, and did not want to mess around looking for it, so...
The VW symbol is getting done in a dark blue, the letters are getting done black, and the V in 16V is getting red...

Sort of like my stock manifold on there now, but no red vw symbol...
But yea, form over function.... my hood is never open anyway.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

For all the people that wanted to know if it was going to line up, I took some snapshots this morning.
I lined it up directly with the syock upper so you could see how it lined up....but I got a little too close so you can not see as well as I wanted you to.


















Here is how much space I had to work with on the runners before the sparkplugs on the stock upper..... I took out 1 1/2 inches









Here they are side by side.....


----------



## TurboRocco (May 18, 2000)

good job! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dallasw (Nov 10, 2002)

very nice! I really cant wait to see the #s to see what you have accomplished. Keep it up!!!!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16Vpassat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16Vpassat* »_What type of motor/cam setup are you putting this on?

Within the month, it should be together and dynoed.
2.0 16v, stock block
1.8 16v head
eurosport airbox
abd intake tube
Velocity big bore TB
modded 50mm as above
GIAC chip
Schrick 260/276 cams
Brospeed header
Piper cam gear
TT exhaust
UR pullys
windage tray

Any guesses?


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

I hope it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 165-70 at the wheels.


----------



## ValveFloat (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

It turned out really nice. Definately leave the welds (Don't grind) they look sweet. Like everyone, I'm looking forward to the dyno results. The back to back comparison with the 50mm will be educational.








BTW








Where are your safety glasses?








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MikeBlaze (Aug 9, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (ValveFloat)*

Safety squinting. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## The Prof (Jul 18, 2002)

can ypou dyno with a 42 too? as the 50mm isn't really a good manifold for a 2.0 is it?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (The Prof)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Prof* »_can ypou dyno with a 42 too?


It would be too involved to swap the lower at the dyno (not to mention the expense)
I am doing a run with the stock 50mm, then a run with this upper, then fine tuning anything as needed (fuel mixture, cam timing, ignition timing, etc)


_Quote, originally posted by *The Prof* »_the 50mm isn't really a good manifold for a 2.0 is it?

It is now!!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Paint time!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

whoa, that is nice paint!
I wasnt sure what sort of color you were talking about "cast aluminum" - but man, that really cleaned it up. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
job well done.


----------



## JettaManDan (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (rockin16v)*

looks good - where did you get the paint from?


----------



## ValveFloat (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Fein1 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (ValveFloat)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Fein1)*

sweet http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
wheres that left over dohc 16v thing going


----------



## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

I say DAYUM! Thats about the nicest looking 16v mani I've ever seen - I love the choice of colors in the VW emblem and text. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and a







for someone doing something original in the 16v world!


----------



## PerfectGLi (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: (Haiku Master)*

Bad ass.
What _is_ the plan for the other DOHC 16v thing? Does it have anything to do with those cams?


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (PerfectGLi)*

He told me he was going to hang it off a big thick gold chain at VW events.

_Quote, originally posted by *PerfectGLi* »_What _is_ the plan for the other DOHC 16v thing? Does it have anything to do with those cams?


----------



## nimbusgti (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: (PerfectGLi)*

very nice.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## knewdubbr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (nimbusgti)*

nice work man that looks great, and im also curious as to what the #'s will be. keep us posted http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (rockin16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rockin16v* »_whoa, that is nice paint!
I wasnt sure what sort of color you were talking about "cast aluminum" - but man, that really cleaned it up.


Well, the cast aluminum paint itself looks like just that...cast aluminum...pretty much like stock. 
I just decided to dress it up a little, and ended up getting carried away with a million coats of clear coat!!!


----------



## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Turned out very nice Josh http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VeeDubGuy (Feb 18, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Beautiful job. I can't wait to see the numbers. My friend painted his manifold with cast aluminum and high heat clear coat too. Looked really nice, but when the engine heat got to it, the clear coat yellowed quite a bit. Just letting you know what might happen. Regardless it still looks good. I wish my welding skills were up to that level. Good luck with the dyno run. Has anyone accepted your "friendly wager"?
~Tom


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (VeeDubGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeDubGuy* »_ Looked really nice, but when the engine heat got to it, the clear coat yellowed quite a bit. Just letting you know what might happen. Regardless it still looks good. 


If it happens, it happens.... I really don't ever open my hood anyway.










_Quote, originally posted by *VeeDubGuy* »_ Has anyone accepted your "friendly wager"?


Ha! Nope! I think almost everybody realizes that this is going to make more power, they are just sitting back quietly to wait and see the numbers....

BTW- Once I dyno and swap this on and have numbers, I will have a spare extra 50mm upper, so it is possible that I could make another if someone wanted one and gave me a 42mm upper to work with. I'll just let you know now, it won't be cheap however, quite a bit of time involved, and the welding was $$$$$.


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

so, when's dyno day??


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (baupfhor)*

Hopefully within the month.....

Still waiting on a few parts to arrive....then install time.


----------



## BubbleBLOCK (Jul 27, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

great work, can't wait to see the results of the outcome...


----------



## grovervw (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: (knewdubbr)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . The pitbull of 16v mani's!


----------



## G60perfection (Oct 30, 2002)

*Re: (grovervw)*

That mani almost looks too beautiful to use







very good work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

Ha! Nope! I think almost everybody realizes that this is going to make more power, they are just sitting back quietly to wait and see the numbers....



You won't gain power from that manifold, but the cams and throttle body will.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
You won't gain power from that manifold, but the cams and throttle body will.


DING DING DING.....we have a winner!!!








Willing to put your money where your mouth is Blake??
I'll put some green on it. Step up to the plate hotshot.


----------



## Weaver (Jun 24, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

kung-fu!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Ok....time for a test fit.....
Maybe on Sat, I'll take it out for a spin to see how it feels with just the euro cam and all the other stock stuff..... _maybe_.....
Off with the old








































Spark plug clearence with the shortened runners....









Better straight down shot.....


----------



## Scott F. Williams (Oct 14, 2000)

*Re: (130_R)*

Blake, upon what *scientific* basis do you figure that Josh's manifold will make no more power than stock? Shortening the bigger diameter runners and increasing the plenum size *must* affect the power output. To be fair, of course, he could possibly lose power, but I don't see why that would be. He's done his homework and what he's built is the product of that research. The dyno test will tell all. So... Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? Josh sounds confident.







 Come on, big moderator man; let's go!


----------



## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

i see why now its gonna go faster he's missing the wipers so there be no wind drag when hes on the track.







J/K nice manifold


----------



## Dynamic_KV (Apr 12, 2003)

*Re: (Scott F. Williams)*

well anyone can say whatever they want... we can talk about cfm, air velocity, etc.. either way, it is all theory until applied. i can appreciate Josh's effort. let's hope that dyno results surprise everyone... remeber when everyone doubted the split cams, it seems those are "the way to go" now (wonder why







). ahhhhh the good old days








Kris


----------



## vwflygti (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: (Dynamic_KV)*

Awesome Mani Josh, can't wait to see it in person!








And for everyone else!!!











_Modified by vwflygti at 11:29 PM 6-5-2003_


----------



## Phobia16V (Aug 12, 2000)

*Re: (vwflygti)*

Again, this is a very interesting idea, and a well executed project. However, it's still pissing in the wind until we have some hard evidence that it actually produces more power. As before, I don't think the cost to hp yeild factor will be as high as other modifications, especially for the work involved. I could see this being a way to squeeze a few extra ponies out if the engine was already built to it's absolute maximum, but for the intended application, I do not think it's a worthwhile modification. 
That being said, the intent is dead on, and charting new territory is never a bad thing. The eventuality of something like this occuring was inevitable. I'll be awating the dyno results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (knewdubbr)*

looks sweet. i just want to know whats different from that and the original manifold.
looks similar


----------



## Weaver (Jun 24, 2001)

*Re: (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_looks sweet. i just want to know whats different from that and the original manifold.
looks similar

well this IS a 4 page thread, prolly wouldn't kill you to open up page 1 and read a paragraph or two


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

DING DING DING.....we have a winner!!!








Willing to put your money where your mouth is Blake??
I'll put some green on it. Step up to the plate hotshot.
















there will be no betting here......








BUT, I've already seen this idea executed a while back. 
I'll let you make your runs to see what results you obtain


----------



## v16 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: (16v)*

youve seen nothing. shut yer pie-hole!


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (v16)*

imitation is the sincerest form of flattery eh mate?


----------



## nc16v (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: (16v)*

Without dynoing the manifolds back to back, we're not going to know if there's a difference. 
Since its such a pain pulling of the lower intake, what about dynoing the uppers using the 50mm lower? Not an ideal test, but probably good enough to see any differences.
BTW, props for the R&D. This is what tuning is all about.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (nc16v)*

Ummm...... the only thing changed _is_ the uppers, and I have said all along that I *will* do back to back dyno's of them.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (Weaver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weaver* »_
well this IS a 4 page thread, prolly wouldn't kill you to open up page 1 and read a paragraph or two









id be on the vortex 24-7 with that attitude!


----------



## nc16v (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

My mistake...I guess I missed that part







Good deal. I've been following this thread with interest...I'm looking forward to the results http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

DING DING DING.....we have a winner!!!








Willing to put your money where your mouth is Blake??
I'll put some green on it. Step up to the plate hotshot.
















All day long Josh, some people have already been where you are just now going. The manifold is not where the restriction problem is, until you get rid of the airflow plate and the way too small stock throttle body casting you aren't going to make more power, just move it around a bit.
Sure your manifold is going to move the power band up higher, so it will look like you gained horsepower on the top end. Just because your engine now makes 10 more horsepower at 6k rpms doesn't mean you gained power if you lose 10 horsepower at 2k rpms. Horsepower and torque cannot be compared by examining only one plot point on a graph, the total curve must be compared.


----------



## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: (130_R)*

peak whp?? lol. i'll take my torque under the curve any day.
honda rocks for peak whp, but crap my 2G g60 makes more torque @2500 than the S2000 does at 9000prm
lol gotta post this pic


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_The manifold is not where the restriction problem is, until you get rid of the airflow plate and the way too small stock throttle body casting you aren't going to make more power, just move it around a bit.
Sure your manifold is going to move the power band up higher, so it will look like you gained horsepower on the top end. Just because your engine now makes 10 more horsepower at 6k rpms doesn't mean you gained power if you lose 10 horsepower at 2k rpms.


I completely agree, sort of,.... I would gladly loose 10hp at 2k for 10 hp at 6k. That *is* gaining power, and that *is* a faster car... 
You make it out like moving the power higher with the manifold is bad, but yet you advocate larger cams which do the exact same thing.
I am doing the best I can with what I have. I've already addressed improvements to the TB and air-plate. 
'low-end' TQ can be compensated for with gearing (3.94) and higher CR, as well as a light car in general.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (mrkrad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mrkrad* »_honda rocks for peak whp, but crap my 2G g60 makes more torque @2500 than the S2000 does at 9000prm

A. Your boosted, the S2000 is not.
B. The s2000 is still faster than your G60


----------



## H2Zero (Apr 25, 2003)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Josh....whatever said and done like all things there is good and bad so let them have their piece.....However would like to add that I feel your ride looks a little frankenestiny.....with the intake manifold...


----------



## 16vU4EA (Sep 13, 2000)

*Re: (mrkrad)*

holy crap! a supercharged car makes more torque than a n/a one?? GET OUTTA TOWN!!
Yeah, and a 2.0L s2000 makes about the same amt. of torque (120lb/ft) and way more HP than a 2.0 16v vw motor. So what's your point?
http://www.randdmotorsports.co...l.jpg


----------



## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: (16vU4EA)*

hp sells cars, torque wins races....
- Enzo Ferrari


----------



## skillton (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: (PAGTI91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PAGTI91* »_hp sells cars, torque wins races....
- Enzo Ferrari

That's why formula 1 cars have so much hp and so lil torque rite?


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (skillton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skillton* »_
That's why formula 1 cars have so much hp and so lil torque rite?









well when you are racing against other tq-less Formula 1 cars... someone is bound to win.


----------



## PAGTI91 (Jul 3, 2001)

*Re: (skillton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skillton* »_
That's why formula 1 cars have so much hp and so lil torque rite?









wtf







nobody is talking about F1's pal, 
they build spped and stay there the whole time on a flat track...on the street (where the rest of us drive speed racer







) its nice to lay some torque down and make a quick getaway....
actually, I'll quit wasting my time talking to you... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif see the cashier on your way out...


















_Modified by PAGTI91 at 7:19 PM 6-8-2003_


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (Scott F. Williams)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scott F. Williams* »_Blake, upon what *scientific* basis do you figure that Josh's manifold will make no more power than stock? Shortening the bigger diameter runners and increasing the plenum size *must* affect the power output. To be fair, of course, he could possibly lose power, but I don't see why that would be. He's done his homework and what he's built is the product of that research. The dyno test will tell all. So... Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? Josh sounds confident.







Come on, big moderator man; let's go!









No hard scientific data, just some quick scribbly scrabble on my desk at work. I calculated the plenum is worth 2 hp in theory, so maybe I screwed on the math somewhere, I did not double check myself.
If Josh makes more power over the total curve, I will buy him an ice cream at Waterfest, and maybe one of those magazine girls for the ride home.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*

Ice cream kicks ass!!


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
If Josh makes more power over the total curve, I will buy him ... one of those magazine girls for the ride home. 

For that - i'll PS a dyno chart for you Josh.


----------



## reeo (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: (rockin16v)*

so how much longer do we have to wait to see the results? im hoping for a surprise.


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (reeo)*

Any progress?


----------



## VWJerm (May 5, 2002)

*Re: (killa)*

hey is this thread almost lost? 
whats happening?


----------



## rebel_eye (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (VWJerm)*

same ........whats the deal 
I want to know if i should make one or not


----------



## vwflygti (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: (rebel_eye)*

He's workin on it... can't wait.


----------



## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: (vwflygti)*

You wanna talk crap? I'll take you up on your wager. It has to be over 5hp gain. Deal?


----------



## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: (Patrick Schmidt)*

Like Raven said, exactly how long does it take to P-Chop a dyno sheet?


----------



## Donkey (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: (Patrick Schmidt)*

Dyno! Dyno!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Patrick Schmidt)*

There is a lot more going on before the dyno than just bolting on this intake.
Once the complete engine is built, then it will hit the rollers....patience.

BTW, just so everyone knows, some people have been saying "the dyno sheets won't matter because you can manipulate the test".
Gimme a break!! All I am going to do is a run with the stock 50mm upper, than swap it and run again. Same dyno, same day. I highly doubt the dyno operator is going to let me mess with anything!!








So anyway,....my reply to the haters that say the dyno is BS because they are not there in person, I say I will video tape the runs and post them.
Theres no way I could fake that, I'm not pixar studios!!


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (Patrick Schmidt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Patrick Schmidt* »_You wanna talk crap? I'll take you up on your wager. It has to be over 5hp gain. Deal?

and you're going to bring your own manifold to test against his? that is part of the wager.
You are the one talking crap, not him. If you don't have anything better than what he made, then i suggest you hold your comments until after he dynos it.


----------



## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: (baupfhor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *baupfhor* »_
and you're going to bring your own manifold to test against his? that is part of the wager.
You are the one talking crap, not him. If you don't have anything better than what he made, then i suggest you hold your comments until after he dynos it.

sure. i'll bring my stuff. i guarantee mine makes 30 hp over whatever his does. all motor, pump gas, no N20.
read around a bit before you chime in. i wasn't referring to this thread about talking crap.
Cheers,
Pat


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (Patrick Schmidt)*

sorry, i do have a life outside of the tex. I can't read every thread.
I'd like to see a manifold that can add 30hp.


----------



## MorpheusMac (Jan 6, 2001)

*Re: (baupfhor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *baupfhor* »_sorry, i do have a life outside of the tex. I can't read every thread.
I'd like to see a manifold that can add 30hp.

not a manifold dude....he said his "stuff"....and his stuff will blow this "stuff" out of the water...guaranteed


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (MorpheusMac)*

im not doubting his stuff. We're not talking ITB's here. We're talking manifolds.


----------



## Uncalm (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: (baupfhor)*

Wow. That mani look sweet Josh. I haven't been on this forum in a while and just saw this. Can't wait to see your results


----------



## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: (130_R)*

there actually is engineering formulas for this stuff i have written down from school somewheres. i think his idea is great. as far as i know there is formulas for the propper length and angle of bend of the runners. There is a formula to calculate runner length and diameter for a particular RPM range as well as plenum size. The formulas relate to valve overlap which relates to cam specs. which should be tunned to propper head work (bench flowed for optimum cam specs) and exhaust tunning (simmilar formula to intake manifold tunning). Propperly tunning for a certain RPM can induce volumetric supercharging at that RPM and can provide sicnificant gains. ( volumetric supercharging is based of principles of using exhust back pressure to help pull in a fresh air charge). Properly sized plenum is like a pressure regulator which reduces air surges into the cylinders from the valves closing (this ruins scavenging) and also in this application reduces plate surge, propper plenum size also acts as a pressure resivoir. Since he is part matching pretty well for a certain RPM application im sure there will be gains whether he did the formulas or not. But as i said earlier scavenging, overlap and back pressure are critical to the intake tuning to be useful.


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (Space9888)*

yup. Advanced Fluid dynamics. 3 years doing civil engineering math stuff.
As a side note: Do you know removing your mirrors or changing the shape to a more efficent design (like DTM) will increase your top speed, and effective HP. ? On paper, HP isnt just what the motor puts out. Old school 70's police light bars - effectively "removed" ~30 hp due to there design. current police light bars are much more areodynamic to compensate.
Same goes for this manifold Josh is making. changing the shape to a more favorable design (for this/his application) will increase the flow of air in the motor - and if there are no restrictions onthe exit - will increase power. period.
Did you do any calculations of fluid flow Josh?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (rockin16v)*

No, but I would be interesated in talking to you about it... I'll hit you up on IM.... or if you have AIM even better.....


----------



## Odium (Jun 6, 2003)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

pat lol 
"Theres no way I could fake that, I'm not pixar studios!!" 
Finding Dyno!








Good work pat


----------



## the_mad_bastard (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

alright, i want to get in on this one. i think it's safe to say that (generally speaking) a 2.0 16V with a chipped motronic, wild cams, major headwork, 50mm intake, and big exhaust should net somewhere between 170-175hp at the wheels. the test car that badger5 is using is putting out 174 at the wheels.
this says to me that the limitation of the intake manifold is nonexistant. i've always adhered to the belief that the bottleneck of the vw 16V is the head. as i understand, it was designed more for economy than performance.
please don't take this as a slag on you, powerdubs. i think what you're doing is awesome, and hope that more people take it upon themselves to
A) take the initiative and try something new, and
B) post loads of progress reports
best of luck


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (the_mad_bastard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_bastard* »_i think it's safe to say that (generally speaking) a 2.0 16V with a chipped motronic, wild cams, major headwork, 50mm intake, and big exhaust should net somewhere between 170-175hp at the wheels. 

Where's the dyno for that one?


----------



## smash929 (Jan 10, 2002)

i would also like to see dyno results, i dotn think anyone can even make close to 170 whp in cis-motronic. maybe with standalone its possible but 170 whp is a lot for a n/a vw 16v engine


----------



## Phobia16V (Aug 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (the_mad_bastard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_bastard* »_alright, i want to get in on this one. i think it's safe to say that (generally speaking) a 2.0 16V with a chipped motronic, wild cams, major headwork, 50mm intake, and big exhaust should net somewhere between 170-175hp at the wheels.

Two words: Doubt it. 
There is a major restriction in the intake system....primarily the "flapper plate" style air flow meter. Huge gains can be seen by going a route that eliminates that restriction(DigifantII, your choice of standalone management, etc). But to go even further than that, and eliminate the intake manifold, be it 40mm, 42mm, or 50mm(or whatever falls between) is where real gains will be seen. Ask the people running ITBs/carbs what kind of gains they have seen over what they were making before. The 16V manifold, while an attractive and functional design, is far from ideal for outright power. Aside from the obvious flaws that Josh is attempting to work around, you have to take into account the incredible amount of heat soak going on right there, as it sits over the two hottest parts of the engine: the head and the exhaust manifold. No amount of heat shielding is going to get you away from that. 
And since everyone is in a creative mood all of the sudden, why doesn't someone make a short-runner manifold similar to the type used on say....a 1.8T. No excuses about the alternator being in the way...sh*tcan the A/C and move it down...we're after outright power here, remember? The space previously occupied by the alternator can be occupied by the throttle body. 
I know someone has a spare manifold, some free time, and some balls. I'll gladly pay the going rate for an hour of dyno time($90) to prove that it makes more power that Josh's manifold.









_Quote, originally posted by *smash929* »_i would also like to see dyno results, i dotn think anyone can even make close to 170 whp in cis-motronic. maybe with standalone its possible but 170 whp is a lot for a n/a vw 16v engine

Would you be interested in seeing someone do it without fuel injection at all?







Hay Pat....what kind of power is Rick's 8V making?


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (the_mad_bastard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_bastard* »_alright, i want to get in on this one. i think it's safe to say that (generally speaking) a 2.0 16V with a chipped motronic, wild cams, major headwork, 50mm intake, and big exhaust should net somewhere between 170-175hp at the wheels. 

should being the opportune word


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Phobia16V* »_
And since everyone is in a creative mood all of the sudden, why doesn't someone make a short-runner manifold similar to the type used on say....a 1.8T. 

it's been done:


----------



## Phobia16V (Aug 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16v* »_it's been done

Pimp daddy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Results?


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*

wouldn't you lose a lot of tq on an NA engine? I've seen that done for turbo setups.


----------



## MorpheusMac (Jan 6, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (baupfhor)*

yes....that manifold is on one of the most rediculous rabbits ever concocted...definitely boosted


----------



## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*

Like this one?










_Modified by BUNNYLOVE at 12:22 PM 6-30-2003_


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (BUNNYLOVE)*

Just reading through this post for the first time...
lol's here and there. My q is, wouldn't a simple bench flow just prove the usefullness of the custome manny. Ya, dyno's are cool and fin, but if buddy can prove his manifold flows better than the stock one... isn't that the winning point?
Where or when does increasing flow in a motor become unuseful. That I would like to know. Surely all motors have their max flow point. Consider a mildly ported 2.0 head, stock valves... how ,uch could that head flow? Then match up the manifold and you're in bussiness right?


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Phobia16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Phobia16V* »_
Pimp daddy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Results?

look for it at WF


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Action Jackson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_ wouldn't a simple bench flow just prove the usefullness of the custome manny. Ya, dyno's are cool and fin, but if buddy can prove his manifold flows better than the stock one... isn't that the winning point?

Not entirely.... you can have 2 manifolds that flow the exact same numbers on a bench, but if one of them has been tuned for a resonance peak at around the cams power peak, it could produce _signifigantly_ higher numbers than the other manifold which may resonate at say 4500rpm.
This would not show up at all on a flow bench,....but the dyno would see it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

^^^ beat me to it.
if i remember correctly, and i believe i do, Powerdubs theory is that he will be increasing the air AVAILABLE to flow through the manifold and head at the cams peak...not increasing the flow rate itself.


----------



## franz (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Tornado2dr)*

hey... lets pick on somebody who wants to try something different... maybe we should all stone him at waterfest...
"down with different"
"down with progress"
"down with experiments"
"down with breaking the grain"
the kids chant this wildly until they get their new wheels in the mail...
this makes me realize that most people complaining here are as lame as the smiley faces below this window...
anyone wanna buy a 16v samco hose set... black... IM me


----------



## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

dyno it already! put it on a stock motor so we can see its real world gains


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (franz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz* »_hey... lets pick on somebody who wants to try something different... maybe we should all stone him at waterfest...


you mean sort of like PowerDubs used to do until he had this "manifold epiphany"?


----------



## Phobia16V (Aug 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (franz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz* »_hey... lets pick on somebody who wants to try something different... maybe we should all stone him at waterfest...

Aside from the fact that Josh could use a good stoning(







), innovation is a good thing. I think what everyone here wants to see is results. And having been in the business for as long as you have, you should know that claims don't amount to sh*t without some kind of supporting evidence. Dyno results will answer all of the questions and doubts that everyone has, and until then, no one will be satisfied.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Benbuilt4u)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Benbuilt4u* »_dyno it already! put it on a stock motor so we can see its real world gains










As stated earlier, I'm waiting on a few parts to arrive and installed before the dyno. Putting it on a stock engine would just be silly, thats totally against the point. Thats like putting Schrick 276 cams in a stock engine and then complaining when they don't work well. Engines are tuned as a package.
That being said, I have some interesting news to announce.
I was contacted by a semi-local fellow 16v'er today, and the main tidbit of conversation that I will share with you guys is as follows....
"If it is possible, I would 
be interested in observing the dyno runs when they happen (I'm down in 
Princeton so it wouldn't take too long to get there) Also, if you would 
like an extra data point, I could bring my 16V (1.8l GTI, TT Cams, 
Brospeed, TT cat-back etc.) and my 50mm and would be willing to pay for 
another set of with/ without runs on my own car. "
So the plot thickens... We will be dynoing his car 'stock' at first as a baseline, then swap on my modded upper and dyno again. Then while he is removing the upper, I will dyno my baseline, then swap and dyno again with it.
It will be interesting to see the differences in how it affects a 1.8 VS a 2.0.





















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

sweeeeet. baseline numbers don't lie!


----------



## nickinboston (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (rockin16v)*

if you have any available maybe you could bring a 42mm manifold to dyno with as well.
that way you could get #s for the 42, 50 and hybrid.


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (nickinboston)*

i think it would be too much of a hassle and take too much time to swap the lower intake of the 42... although it would be cool to get some number on that too.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (nickinboston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nickinboston* »_if you have any available maybe you could bring a 42mm manifold to dyno with as well.
that way you could get #s for the 42, 50 and hybrid.










Way too much time and trouble to swap the 42 lower. Dyno time is $$$ and why risk messing up injector o-rings and cause vacuum leaks? The upper swap is just a matter of minutes, quick and easy.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

Actually, if someone brought a 42mm for me to use, and was willing to pay for the extra dyno run, I would probably do it.


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

So if/when this all comes together on dyno day... and you prove the flamers wrong... how do us wanna haves get ahold of one? Are you going to custom make these for sale?
And (im sure I'd have the answer if I read backwards) will thjis manifold be specific to N/A or FI applications.


----------



## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (franz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz* »_hey... lets pick on somebody who wants to try something different... maybe we should all stone him at waterfest...
"down with different"
"down with progress"
"down with experiments"
"down with breaking the grain"
the kids chant this wildly until they get their new wheels in the mail...
this makes me realize that most people complaining here are as lame as the smiley faces below this window...
anyone wanna buy a 16v samco hose set... black... IM me

i guess i would be one of the ones "complaining", but i assure you i am not like the "kids" you stereotype me as. i have my reasons for doubting the worth of this project, and i am entitled to them. 
also, while i am sitting around "waiting for my wheels in the mail".... i am welding new manifolds that dont waste my time and money, and i didnt spend a year "designing" them, if i am not doing that i am soldering my own fuel rail so i dont have to pay the coin for a shiny ross rail. or maybe i am building my own turbo kit, or looking for ideas/parts in the junkyard and so on and so forth....
dont take this harshly, its just that you are stereotyping and you shouldnt be. i know there are a couple other people here that have fab'd up stuff or experimented with ideas, so they know what they are talking about.


----------



## franz (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

basically, i have my own opinions about this manifold... but i choose to keep them to myself for two reasons...
#1... i love to be proven wrong and speculation makes an A S S out of everybody...
#2... i like the fact that josh is actually trying something that is new for him... i don't want to deter anyone from trying something out on their own, regardless of what I think the outcome maybe...
so if people read my post and took it personally, maybe you should read it again...
you can only move forward in life by trying something that is different or new (even if it maybe just different or new to you)... 
after all, isn't the meaning of life to gain as much knowledge as possible?
playing with numbers only gets you so far... get your hands dirty and try something new...
RavenGTi, i think it's cool that you've done your own "fabrication" work... but don't think you are the only person who does this, many people on here do... i wish there were more people who fabricated nice pieces for their cars... but the truth is that most people on vwvortex are too busy being jealous and resentful of someone trying something new or different... so why doesn't everybody sit back and enjoy, josh has already made the piece, so why can't everybody be patient with the outcome?


----------



## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (franz)*

i know there are many people who fab their own vw stuff, many of them dont even know what vortex is. i just didnt want to be grouped with those that are just waiting for their wheels in the mail. 
also, one reason for resentment (which really isnt the right word, but i dont know what would be) is that josh comes on here with his idea and spouting info that may or may not be relevant and everyone jumps on the wagon assuming that his word is truth. we all know how vortex is. then you start to wonder why should i bother trying to help these people or give them ideas when they wont appreciate it.


_Modified by RavenGTi at 5:07 PM 6-25-2003_


----------



## franz (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

to qoute RavenGTi... "then you start to wonder why should i bother trying to help these people or give them ideas when they wont appreciate it."
ding ding ding... you got it... best to keep your opinions to yourself (like many of us do) in a matter like this... no one is going to get hurt if this goes sour, so it's best to enjoy the ride...
for the record, i never said that YOU were waiting for new wheels, so why did this offend you so much? no need to answer that, but if you don't feel that it pertains to you, there really is no reason to defend yourself
now back to waiting for josh's results


_Modified by franz at 5:24 PM 6-25-2003_


----------



## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (franz)*

i wasnt really offended i just thought i was one of the reasons that statement was made. no worries. specialized said it best.... innovate or die.


----------



## Schrick GTX (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Where's the dyno for that one?










_Quote, originally posted by *16v* »_
should being the opportune word

close enough?








step up or.....
PowerDubs, props for pushing on that envelope bro. 


_Modified by Schrick GTX at 10:04 PM 6-25-2003_


----------



## PhantomDubs (Sep 8, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Schrick GTX)*

that was a long read...I was hoping to get to the results by page 6 but I guess I will have to wait and see like the rest of you.


----------



## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Schrick GTX)*

schrick GTX- those guys were refering to a post where the guy said it would be safe to say blah, blah, blah, would make 175whp, implying thats what the average motor with those mods would be putting out.... you have a motor that is tuned very well and it only makes 167whp thats not the same as 175whp obviously, and most engines arent putting out that much with the same/similar mods.
so its natural to question his claim. also, he claims that ITBs give no more power than a chipped cis-motoronic w/ 50mm manifold.


----------



## JettaManDan (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

alright people lets keep it nice ok?.......
i don't think this would ever be a part josh or anyone would want to market - if for no other reason you need 2 manfolds sitting around that are worth $500 or so to just cut up - and the other custom work as well - i do believe this setup could make power - but we're talking a few here - not like 40 hp - so a whole setup for like $800 isn't worth the 5 hp - josh had the parts and the idea so this works for him...but not for the rest of us!







if you are building a full out race motor this is a great idea....i want to see the #'s - will be cool to see - especially the area under the curve - i think that is where the most difference will be seen..........
Dan


----------



## the_mad_bastard (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

schrick GTX: nice one, dave. i figgered that i'd let the haters hate until you pulled up to the plate. my bad about 170-175. i was close tho.
ravenGTI: when you say that it's putting out *only* 167 and not 175, i think that's kinda weak. i said between 170-175. badger's getting 174. if dave's sole purpose in life was to make money from building up his car to make as much power as possible, then i think he would've exceeded 174 by now. 
being 7hp down on a kit known the world over is a pretty amazing feat. "only" doesn't strike me as the right word for the argument.
but back to my original reason for unlurking, what i was initially saying is that i think that re-working a part of an engine to get more power is a great idea. but since the power from a tuned 2.0 16V (and please note that i said: *chipped motronic, wild cams, major headwork, 50mm intake, and big exhaust*) will net you in the neighbourhood of what a badger5 set up will net you. then does that not mean the limit of the system is not in the intake manifold (assuming that you are using a 50mm)? 
it's a question. not a bold statement bashing powerdubs for having a unique idea and the balls to follow up on it. and even bigger balls for putting them on the line in this lion's den of opinions.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (the_mad_bastard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_mad_bastard* »_does that not mean the limit of the system is not in the intake manifold (assuming that you are using a 50mm)? 

While I would like to try to avoid turning this into another 'ITB' thread, I will say that KV had close to 185WHP with his badgers, and someone else I know on here who just built a badgered engine just made 175ish whp a few days ago on the dyno simply doing baseline tuning to get it running and not taking the revs anywhere near as high as they could have since the engine was fresh. Its not my place to say who, since they may be wanting to keep the details a secret for now.
What this means to me, is that there is definately some power to be had on the intake side of things. Remember also, everyone seems to be forgetting or ignoring that there is power to be made by resonance/rpm tuning and not simply outright flow numbers. When you move the power up the curve, the car will be faster, if it can be kept in that area while driving.
Hell, IIRC from another thread, Pat will verify that he changed the length of his stacks on his ITBs and ran faster because of moving his power range also.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

BTW, if anyone is interested.....same sort of line of thought.... here is an article testing a larger plenum intake on a Acura. They made substational gains.
Just some leisurely 'Friday bored at work' reading....
http://www.turbomagazine.com/t...brock/


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_BTW, if anyone is interested.....same sort of line of thought.... here is an article testing a larger plenum intake on a Acura. They made substational gains.
Just some leisurely 'Friday bored at work' reading....
http://www.turbomagazine.com/t...brock/
Read through the article a bit.. blah blah typical honda numbers. A gazillion HP and 3 ft lbs of torque. Ands that's impressive








Its been well stated a few posts up. Something I didn't really consider. If you spend as much as being done here to fabbing an intake, and the gains are only 10%.. it is something not everyone will be willing to do.
I'd rather spend the 4-5 or more hundred bucks on fabbing a custom turbo using stock intake. Bigger bang for the buck. But then some of you guys aren't in for FI, which is fine. I guess breaking the 200hp barrier will take some fine tuning and BLING BLING though.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_blah blah typical honda numbers. A gazillion HP and 3 ft lbs of torque.

I love people who talk out their asses. Quit listening to 'popular' opinnion, open your ears and actually learn something.
That Honda engine tested made 205.1 hp and 140.0 lb-ft of torque _at the wheels_ out of an engine that was only *1.8 Liters*.
To the best of my knowledge, no one outside of VWMS has ever came anywhere close to that on a VW 16v that are *2.0 liters, or more *(overbore, 2.1, etc)

_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_If you spend as much as being done here to fabbing an intake, and the gains are only 10%.. it is something not everyone will be willing to do.

I could only *hope* to get 10% gains.... do you know how hard it is to make NA power?? If I could come anywhere close to the making the 11.8whp they did, I would be estatic. Honestly, if I make 5whp more, I would be more than satisfied. Of course it is not something everyone is willing to do. Neither is ITB's, turbo's, nitrous, superchargers, or even cams. To each his own.

_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_I'd rather spend the 4-5 or more hundred bucks on fabbing a custom turbo using stock intake. Bigger bang for the buck. I guess breaking the 200hp barrier will take some fine tuning and BLING BLING though.


Not even getting into the fact that you couldn't build a proper turbo setup for anywhere near $500, I will let you know this manifold cost me well under $500, under $400,...as a matter of fact, I'll tell you. The spare upper cost me $80, the machine work was free. The only pricey part was the welding at $200. I had a local guy off Vortex willing to weld it for $40, but I have delt with the guy who I had weld it before and was willing to pay for quality work. Throw in say $20 for dremel bits and spraypaint, and you have $300 total. I _could_ have done it for 1/2 of that.
Would 5whp at say 6500rpm be worth $300 to me? You betcha... and that is why I did it.
I posted that link just for some people who are interested to read, and as an example to show how a larger plenum could be beneficial, even if it was on another engine make.
If you can not bring anything intelligent to the table, please stay out of my thread.







Have a nice day!


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Schrick GTX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Schrick GTX* »_









_Modified by Schrick GTX at 10:04 PM 6-25-2003_

Action Jackson: now how is 203hp and 140ft-lb tq any different than 167hp and 127 ft-lb tq? your typical honda hp:tq ratio pretty much match typical vw 16v hp:tq ratio.


_Modified by baupfhor at 8:41 PM 6-27-2003_


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Action Jackson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_Read through the article a bit.. blah blah typical honda numbers. A gazillion HP and 3 ft lbs of torque. Ands that's impressive








I had thought it was apparent that this thread was about fact and theory regarding making n/a horsepower, and not about some juvenile vw vs. honda debate. Thank you baupfhor for pointing out the similarities between the honda and 16v curves.
If you had any knowledge worth sharing, you would know that if anyone knows how to build a small displacement motor, it is honda. Like josh just said, even if the power moves up the rpm range, you still make more power, you just have to keep the engine on boil to make use of it, as you do with a honda motor. 
READ the thread and try to understand what powerdubs is doing here. he is not looking to " [fab] an intake" and find "...10% gains." If he were looking for 10% from this intake he would be a fool. Instead he has put together an intake that should (in my opinion) take advantage of his current state of tune. 
I promised myself i wouldn't do the flame thing here, but i would love to see you build a reliable, effective turbo setup for a 16v for an extra "4-5 or more hundred bucks..."


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (MorpheusMac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MorpheusMac* »_
not a manifold dude....he said his "stuff"....and his stuff will blow this "stuff" out of the water...guaranteed

























Yah, you kinda have to consider the amount of coin dropped on the two different cars. If my wallet was fat, my car would be the fastest dub on the plannet. shoot, look at dhalback. Not to mention that engine is transplanted into a scirocco if I remember correctly, so he's also got 400+ lb weight advantage as well.

Dont you think that the restrictor in the TB that you milled down was there to possibly keep the flow of air relatively even across all 4 runners? I mean with that gone, wont the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and then 4th flow digressivly less air then the closer to the tb?
Im not trying to poo-poo anything Im just lettin my mind run with why they could have possibly justified inorocporating it into the OEM design.


_Quote »_
damn it, let the man play with his tools! 


Game On!

_Quote, originally posted by *baupfhor* »_ 
Dude, even if you come out of this at a total loss (not saying you will), major props for going out of the norm and putting your head and research into trying. I can't wait to see the results. 
 

How else do you think Legendary tuners and wrenches become legendary. Experimentation, application of researched info, and taking risks.
Props to Pdubs, even if your gains are minimal, you'll still have learned a SHeeitload in the process. 



_Modified by Mbiggy at 4:59 PM 6-27-2003_


----------



## dallas16v (Jun 11, 2003)

What is the latest?? Yes, wanting to see dyno. BUT, I am more interested in the whole progress and overall stats. Anything new?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (dallas16v)*

Nothing new to post... it is complete and just waiting on the rest of the engine/trans to be ready for it.


----------



## franz (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

look at all that stuff you are selling... wh ore


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

?? What the hell. I'm gettin flamed left and right here...
You guys did not understand what I wrote. I'll admit I'm no Honda fan and don't always give them credit where its due.. but Honda doesn't make the kinda car I like. 
Read what I worte, and take away the Honda hate (so sorry for rubbin you wrong). Maybe then you'll see I am not flaming Powerdubs, or anyone else on here. I'm merely stating some facts. That is... the difference in gains between money spent on FI compared to eaqual amount of money spent on N/A motors.
Geeze, I consider my self a nice easy going guy here. You read more into what I say and start telling me 
_Quote, originally posted by *Tornado2dr* »_If you had any knowledge worth sharing..

Cut me up? WTH? You don't know me.. and if you have different opinions or wish to politely point out that what I've stated is wrong then do it, but don't cut me up.
Hats off to *baupfhor* for a decent post, stating that my general comment is not fair.
Powerdubs: Again, I'm not trying to put you down... again my Honda comment rustled feathers but do not think for a momment I'm flamming you. The comment about 4-5 hundred dollars has been misunderstood as well. I said 4-5 hundred * or* more, meaning you've spent $400, add another $400+ to build a turbo system, and I think more bang for the buck. It is possilbe to build a srap yard turbo for about a grand US.

_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_If you spend as much as being done here to fabbing an intake, and the gains are only 10%.. it is something not everyone will be willing to do.


_Quote, originally posted by *Powerdubs* »_I could only *hope* to get 10% gains.... do you know how hard it is to make NA power?? If I could come anywhere close to the making the 11.8whp they did, I would be estatic. Honestly, if I make 5whp more, I would be more than satisfied. Of course it is not something everyone is willing to do. Neither is ITB's, turbo's, nitrous, superchargers, or even cams. To each his own.
I think we just stated the same thing. I agree with you 100% and understand what you are doing. And like I said, it isn't something everyone is willing to do.

_Quote, originally posted by *Powerdubs* »_I posted that link just for some people who are interested to read, and as an example to show how a larger plenum could be beneficial, even if it was on another engine make.
If you can not bring anything intelligent to the table, please stay out of my thread.
I beleive I have many intellegent things to share to this website. I'm horribly distraught that soo many people misread what I was trying to say, although I assume that my "Honda hate "







comment is what got you guys upset. I'm very interested in your idea, and its results, and the article does support your idea. I did not at all dispute that. If JG Eledbrock made such an intake for the 16v, I'm sure it would be as impresive as the one they build for Honda. I sarcasticly comment on unimpresive Honda numbers... (which I admit isn't always warrented) but not the content of the article.
And to be fair... you compare a much newer (1998?) Honda 1.8l motor to a VW motor nearly 7 years older in design. Quite a difference.
But I shouldn't dispute, Honda does make a pretty decent motor. I don't give them the deserved credit. That is the only thing I'm guilty of. Next time I'll be more careful not to knock Honda so hard, but don't knock me so hard either. I do not think it was asked for.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: (Action Jackson)*

josh. when are you going to realize that the only way to true greatness and speed in a vw is the vr6







i







you when you saw my supercharged mk3 vr and did the same with my all motor a2vr6. hahahahaha im just busting on you man the exhaust has been at bills house but i havent heard anything. whats the deal????
BTW nice work














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (XXX008XXX)*

Where's the Dyno? I thought this Sukka was done?!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mbiggy* »_Where's the Dyno? I thought this Sukka was done?!


Not even close.... I keep trying but life is getting in the way...


----------



## rabidroco (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

anything.... yet?


----------



## Weaver (Jun 24, 2001)

*Re: (rabidroco)*

doubtfull. it's usually good to back something up when you build this much hype up


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Weaver)*

Trust me, I would be as happy as anyone to dyno this puppy as soon as I can.... there is just a lot going on right now. Time is scarce.


----------



## wetgloves (Nov 12, 2001)

*Re: (Weaver)*

how i've missed this thread i have no clue, but i've just sat here and read all 7 pages....(11:30 pm will due that to ya).
for all of the nay-sayers, either just talking general $hit or backing their claims up with formulas, tried and true methods, etc. saying powerdubs time and money would be well spent in other areas of mods......who F'n cares?
the fact is, is that he is taking his idea, with his research and running with it, just to see what will happen with HIS set up. not anyone elses set up.
what would happen if we were all so complacient to just sit back and try what someone else has instead of trying something new? not b/c it will def work, but b/c one has done some research and thinks it will so why the hell not?
for those out there that have been in this sport long enough, what would have happened if the first import modders out there decided to throw their ideas away when all of the muscle car guys said it was just a complete waste of time trying to get a four banger import to go fast?
just in the area i live in...look at 16v cabby. his 'lil' 4 banger 16vt is out on the streets roasting c5 vettes. you think that fellow in the vette thinks 16v cabbys little covertable chick car is a waste of money, time, and ideas when his mid-life crisis detroit bad boy just got walked over?
the same with friends 300+ whp nissans. i could go on.
the point is, someone is trying to do something diffferent. this sport is about trial and error, like any motor sport. if nhra would have been content with they way drag cars were in the 60's would the sport have progressed to 4 sec runs? no, b/c they tried new ideas. yes not all of them worked, but now they know what does and doesn't.
so while debating will always be apart of this sport, those saying that powerdubs is wasting time and money are full of $hit. so what if it makes signif. gains or falls on its face. he had the balls to try something with credible knowledge and research and go for it, instead of trying what most others would do, which is what everyones is trying to tell them to.

_Modified by wetgloves at 5:06 AM 7-31-2003_


_Modified by wetgloves at 5:08 AM 7-31-2003_


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (wetgloves)*

"this sport"? guess that make me an athlete then eh?

how about a _before_ dyno? Never did see that materialize


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (16v)*

Doug,....
The 'before' dyno will be the same day as the 'after' dyno. That way there will be no BS about people saying it only *looked* like it made more power because of different weather, etc....
The manifold is complete and ready, it is just a matter of me finding the time to be able to install the other pile of parts I have sitting here first... (different head, cams, header, test-pipe, sprockets, diff, flywheel, clutch).


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

ok, help out the handicapped here:

if the before and after dyno numbers are the same then what is the purpose of this entire act of futility??


----------



## baupfhor (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (16v)*

he is going to dyno the before with a stock 50mm intake manifold, then he is going to remove the upper section and put on his modified upper 50mm, then dyno it again.


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: (baupfhor)*

Hey I havent posted in here yet!!! This post is crazy.


----------



## Weaver (Jun 24, 2001)

*Re: (CrackerX)*


----------



## MA_XXX (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: (Weaver)*

powerdubs...keep givin' 'er.
there was tons of skepticism when i showed up with a "different" intercooler set-up. truth is i didn't gain a lot. in fact i can't PROVE i gained anything due to the lack of 4 wheel dynos. however the "seat-of-the-pants" feeling is that my set-up made a difference and i definately didn't lose anything. it cost me very little and it taught me alot. and now i have something that no one else has. now, i'm going to try something else and I'M NOT TELLING A SOUL UNTIL IT'S FINISHED!!!! i'm tired of all the flames. i keep al my opinions to myself and only ask questions these days.


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (MA_XXX)*


_Quote »_i keep al my opinions to myself and only ask questions these days.


it's too bad people dont see that this is the trend for all the old people who used to hang here and helpout.


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mbiggy* »_
it's too bad people dont see that this is the trend for all the old people who used to hang here and helpout.










Powerdubs is your self appointed god. good luck


----------



## v16 (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: (16v)*

god thats just an awful thought...


----------



## blackbunny (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: (v16)*

cant wait to see the # i think the mani looks damn good and is a good idea


----------



## blackbunny (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: (v16)*

i hate when that happens


----------



## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (blackbunny)*

never gonna be dynoed. why dyno it with a built motor dyno it on a stock one so we can see the real gains this is gonna give not the after $5000.00 in mods #'s


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Benbuilt4u)*

because ben:
1. its his car and his money
2. Im sure he wants to see how much power he's putting down. period.
3. A modified engine will show performance gain/loss of something new much more than a stock engine will.
4. Im sure if you've got a stock engine with a 50mm, live near him, and are willing to pay for the dyno time, he'd be willing to let you swap the upper intake to see how much it works on a stock engine... but who puts a 50mm on a stock engine?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

ttt
What's going on with this??


----------



## CorradoAbaTurbo (Aug 30, 2003)

WHat I would do is sell the 50mm intake for $400 and use the money to build a new one from scratch with short runners and put two crossflow throttle bodies on the front. We have built something similar for our crossflow Cabriolet. But good job and good idea, go for it and don't let the skeptics hold you down


----------



## 16Valvn (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

I have some improvements for that also...... but thats next week!!!

SHHHHHH!!!!!










Good Point. Why can't the plate inlet be opened up and cut a ager diameter plate from thinner stcok to equal the weight of the original plate so as not to throw off the arm speed/calibration in the fuel dizzy? Airflow is good!


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16Valvn)*

Pdubs, IMHO if you're going through all the trouble of hacking the intake runners, I'd have hacked off the TB mount and welded on a larger vr6 sized plate to mount a bigger TB.
I guess it's too late now tho, being all nicely painted and all.


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Mbiggy)*

IMHO I hope this thing nets you less HP Pdubs....and that you trip and somehow wind up with this thing up.... I really dont need to get kicked off vortex but.... it seems that you have enough "hp" running around in your head up there than your own good. Thanks for answering my very simple almost stupid questions in other posts and thanks for not responding to my email







Maybe you assumed something about me or my character and made an a$$ out of me and you. I guess since the profile and posts on the vortex give you plenty of info to judge somebody by i cant find a problem with that.







Ignoring someone who valued your opinion thats trying to find a good stupid part is your option but if you dont have the time to help by giving a simple 1-2 sentence response or any kind of response thats just pretty crappy http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif IMHO. 
Actually it would be cool if this works out, but if your attitude towards other people seeking a simple answer to a simple question is such... then well whatever I shouldnt even elongate this post... too many







after a long day of helping people fix their roofs from the Hurricane. Sorry or something.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (CrackerX)*









Where exactly are you getting all these accusations and insults from? You wrote me an email last week, a week that I worked over 60 hours because of a computer virus, and stayed at work until midnight on multiple nights, got home at 1AM on Fri, and worked until 5pm on Sat which I was supposed to have off. Sorry, I could not find the time to write back to everybody.
I find it amazing that someone could get so upset as to attack someone just because they do not respond to a random unsolicited IM. 
To answer your question, I do not know the differences between valve guides.


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

even I answer all my email and user IMs during my 70hr week. If you're going to pique readers interest then you should at least respond to them


----------



## torque_steer (Jan 23, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_ I find it amazing that someone could get so upset as to attack someone just because they do not respond to a random unsolicited IM. 

you are soliciting emails and IMs in the original post


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Mbiggy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mbiggy* »_Pdubs, IMHO if you're going through all the trouble of hacking the intake runners, I'd have hacked off the TB mount and welded on a larger vr6 sized plate to mount a bigger TB.
I guess it's too late now tho, being all nicely painted and all.


Couple of reasons,... too much hassle rigging up the cable and switchs, and the single plate wrecks havoc on the low end, part throtle driveability on CIS systems. A Vr6 is tuned for the single plate in the ECU, and has ramps cast into it to try and minimize effects also.
That being said, I bought a modified 16v TB that has larger plates for increased flow. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (torque_steer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *torque_steer* »_you are soliciting emails and IMs in the original post

No.... at no point did I say 'email or IM me and we'll play 20 questions'.


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
No.... at no point did I say 'email or IM me and we'll play 20 questions'. 

well lookie here. You open a can of worms (questions) that you need to answer. Fancy that?


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_ 
To answer your question, I do not know the differences between valve guides. 

Since you found time in your busy week to respond to a bunch of posts with much longer answers than that I figured you had time to play 1 question 1 short answer. Just seemed like you could have responded then, but thanks for responding now. In my probable incorrect judgement (http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif on my part) that you were ignoring peoples questions that didnt have to do with your own personal stuff and in my







effected very tired state I was kinda upset that you couldnt type the 1-2 sentence response needed for the post or email. Sorry... I hate it when I go posting stuff after a few drinks. 
Anyways, No more need to clutter this post. Hope you have fun tuning.


----------



## Evil16vGLI (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*


_Quote »_it's too bad people dont see that this is the trend for all the old people who used to hang here and helpout.


thats because were tired of the snot-nosed-know-it-alls that populate the area more and more frequently.
sorry but a spade's a spade.


----------



## jaysvw (Oct 15, 2001)

*Re: (Evil16vGLI)*

damnit 7 pages, no dyno, just bitching, good luck w/ the project http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## volksdubber (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
To the best of my knowledge, no one outside of VWMS has ever came anywhere close to that on a VW 16v that are *2.0 liters, or more *(overbore, 2.1, etc)


I know I am extremely far but will be there by next summer








OH and BTW, I don't know anybody at VWMS









img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQDQAo8YFuif8DGXJLyXoI4aVpwlQu3PQR3QemJ2GQdspXweBrIUe9LHOnG4H6I3ABe398IYvksIxmWWxyImtod1Y7rgoyDl13xkx!0CpiqSYd1ZnyGBYOYRitBx6h1f/Dyno%20002.jpg?dc=4675430054036815222[/img]


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## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (CrackerX)*

Well I havent said my peace yet.... just wanted to say again that I was sorry about that whole thing i was posting about... That was really selfish and stupid of me to get all upset like that, its totally your option to respond in the first place and I know that. Im sitting here upset at all the selfish people after the hurricane screaming about "Wheres MY power at..." and here I am saying "Wheres my response at" Pretty hypocritical I suppose. Well, I can admit when i am wrong and I was so for whats its worth, sorry about all that ... 

Wahoo I made the 8th page


----------



## hella (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (CrackerX)*

still no update on this thing?


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## eldorado (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (hella)*

did u dyno yet? inquiring minds want to know


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## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (eldorado)*

going on 5 months now


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## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16v)*

seriously, what a ****-tease


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Mbiggy)*

I was s'possed to dyno last weekend, but it was cancelled last minute. I was pissed off, took a day off work and everything.









As of last night, my car is now in pieces....took out the tranny to do the diff, flywheel, clutch, etc...
Hopefully the dyno will take place in the next couple weeks.


----------



## jetta2u (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

a


----------



## RavenGTi (Dec 12, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

but show n go is tomorrow, isnt that a better dyno than a dyno?


----------



## JBrian (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (RavenGTi)*

Anyone else think the title of this thread is a little ironic??


----------



## BFDeihl (May 29, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (JBrian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JBrian* »_Anyone else think the title of this thread is a little ironic??

Ha-- yeah, got a point there. But, as it took me TWO years to dyno my Caddy-- I certainly have NO ROOM to talk..
I'm sure EVENTUALLY Josh will be able to share some HARD data concerning his custom manifold and powerband.
And, I'm sincerely hoping he sees WORTHWHILE gains. Just having the cajones to chop up a 50mm, (to prove a theory) definitely gets a http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif in my book.
Looking forward to the results of your testing, Powerdubs..


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## Ujin-16V (Oct 1, 2003)

Wow just read all 8 pages and was hoping so much for that dyno results. I changed my opinion about the expected result couple of times while reading it.... but there's no dyno plots here. 
I just hope you see improvements !!!!
and can't wait


----------



## 16v (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (JBrian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JBrian* »_Anyone else think the title of this thread is a little ironic??


----------



## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16v)*

TTT, hoping for graphs!
Garth


----------



## blackbunny (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16v* »_Quote, originally posted by JBrian » 
Anyone else think the title of this thread is a little ironic?? 









haha i wet my pants


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (blackbunny)*

Any chance of getting the dyno caught on video?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (Mbiggy)*

Possibly...if I can borrow the vid cam.. I'll probably be busy though since there will be 20+ cars there, and I need to swap the manifold and try to get back in line for a second run.


----------



## vento3883 (Nov 2, 2002)

Good luck on your dyno runs. I just ran across this post today and have read it from page one. It's always nice to have dubbers try new things.


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## CSDis4lovers (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: (vento3883)*

great thread. i think this whole thread symbolizes the vortex..i love it.


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## moneytrap (Aug 21, 2003)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (PowerDubs)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to having some balls. I've learned quite alot about intake design theory from this post. I didn't realize that runner length and plenum size ext. ext. could have so much effect on a motors output.
In the end, even if this idea is a complete disaster and Powerdubs loses 100 hp (thats called sarcasm folks) I still say its completely worth it and benefits the VW comunity in the long run. Even if you were completely confident that this wouldn't work, you would never have conclusive proof untill someone took the theory and built something around it. 
I almost dont want this to work because if it did, then there's yet another thing I dont have the resources, money, skill or time to do to my own 16v.








big ups to powerdubs


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## B3VR6 (Jan 4, 2000)

PowerDubs, I would strongly suggest you get this book, The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Manifolds from Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...07846
... if you're into this stuff. It's a dry read, but interesting if you're looking for the best power available.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (B3VR6)*

Thanks Ian,
Just an update... dyno date is set for Nov 15th. It will be tested on both a 1.8 and my 2.0.
I swapped the intake on last weekend and have been driving on it.
I will be going to the strip on Sunday, we'll see what the clock says.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif progress


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## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

<mr. burns>excellent</mr. burns>


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

*Re: (rockin16v)*

i should have read page 8 first


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## GTItus (Dec 11, 2002)

*Re: (a2lowvw)*

After you dyno this manifold, here is your next project


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (GTItus)*

And why exactly would I have any need whatsoever for that??


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

*Re: (GTItus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItus* »_After you dyno this manifold, here is your next project









i wonder how good of a job that ic / intake does since its not a high air flow area. would it be a better idea to do the same with and air/water core in its place?


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## Hoadley (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (GTItus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItus* »_After you dyno this manifold, here is your next project
















Holy [email protected] thats awsome!














I saw the picture and I was dumbfounded! No excessive intercooler piping!




_Modified by speedtriple43 at 7:54 PM 10-29-2003_


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (speedtriple43)*

All that with CIS


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

*Re: (sold on expense)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sold on expense* »_All that with CIS









this car was built by vw sport and callaway it is a 1.8l 16v turbo the only turbo 16v done by callaway. and its syncro and its stateside. it makes over 200 bhp. if i remember correctly. the name of the car is yellow zonker if its the same one. appears so by the callaway name on the manifold.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (a2lowvw)*

Yea, thats great guys....but can you start your own seperate thread about it??


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## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (a2lowvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *a2lowvw* »_i wonder how good of a job that ic / intake does since its not a high air flow area. would it be a better idea to do the same with and air/water core in its place?
Exactly . I wouldn't have wasted my time on an air to air I/C that is integrated into the mani . Air to water only.. Just imagine the heat that thing soaks up all by itself. Nice job, but bad design. take her back to the drawing board.


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## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (Action Jackson)*

heh .. not only that ... but how would you go about changing plugs ???
LOL


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## gnashings (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Man, I feel like a tool, I just e-mailed you about this thread... I close my hotmail and there it is, halfway up the page, staring at me. Feel free to call me names...















Anyway, whats the latest?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (gnashings)*

Ok, got a few Im's from people, so I will post here instead of repeating myself.
Went to the strip on Sunday. It was *really* crowded being a nice day and end of the season. I only got in 3 runs and had to wait like 2 hours between runs.








It was different than I am used to, since I just installed a new clutch and a lightened flywheel and the peloquin diff. Needless to say, I will need to readjust my technique w/ practice to get the best times. It was way different.
My 3 runs were, in order...
15.3
15.1
15.0
So I was happy considering my best is a 14.9...
The car definitely pulls better to and past 7k.... better being relative of course, since I am just running a euro cam and stock engine and exhaust manifold.
Again, dyno day is in 1 1/2 weeks. It will be on my 2.0 16v and my friends 1.8 16v also. I have the euro cam installed and he has the TT set.
Of course since engines are a package, I don't expect nearly the same gain with my euro cam as I will once I install my Schricks, headwork, valves, header, etc.. Once the engine gets 'built' I will redyno both manifolds in the spring.
We should see more flow with my friends engine with the TT camset, but again, it is only a 1.8 and stock exhaust manifold if I remember correctly.
I certainly did not slow down any, which is a good sign. If I lost anything down low, my butt dyno can't tell...


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## 98EVILGTI (May 21, 2003)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

great thread. cant wait to see the results........


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## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (98EVILGTI)*

me too ...
already counting down








BTW...
i though i'd share this...
i heard ppl talking that when switching to the 50mm intakes the torque moves up.
now why doesnt someone do this.
*take a 44mm lower intake and port match it to the 50mm upper!*
if im right u should be still be able to keep the air velocity up and flow better at the same time torque curves may slightly shift but it would fall in between the 44 and the 50








and i right ???
or am i missing something ?









_Modified by Scirocco G60T at 7:10 PM 11-6-2003_

_Modified by Scirocco G60T at 9:25 AM 11-9-2003_


_Modified by Scirocco G60T at 9:26 AM 11-9-2003_


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## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*

Im no airsmith... but I'd say you're missing something.
44mm intake manifold? I think you mean 42mm. only ones I know of are 40mm, 42mm, or 50mm.
I'd say that might have a chance of working if you're forcing the air through the manifold, however; Air is pulled through the intake manifold. You'll only be able to pull a certain amount of air through the 42mm lower intake, which will ultimately result in reducing the port velocity in the bigger 50mm runners... I would think that the effect would be similar to increasing the plennum size, which may be overkill for a 2.0 engine. It could also create some funky turbulance that would cause things not to flow as well.
This is all speculation tho... I dont really know what Im talking about.



_Modified by Mbiggy at 7:49 PM 11-6-2003_


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## moneytrap (Aug 21, 2003)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mbiggy* »_ I would think that the effect would be similar to increasing the plennum size, which may be overkill for a 2.0 engine. It could also create some funky turbulance that would cause things not to flow as well._Modified by Mbiggy at 7:49 PM 11-6-2003_

I thought increasing the plennum size was the entire point of this project. The 50mm intake being designed for a 1.8 motor, the plenum is already too small for the 2.0. or have I lost the point of your comment?


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## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (moneytrap)*

what really matters is to keep the velocity of the air up....
thats why there is a torque shift in the bigger manifold.
by my guestimating the 42mm lower and 50mm upper should be the best as far as flow and velocity goes.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*

The 42mm and 50mm both have the same size ports where it mates the head. The only difference is where the middle section is....the 50mm is wider to match the top.
If you put a 50mm top on a 42mm lower, you would have a hell of a lip that would obstruct flow, and wreck havoc on your pulses. 
If you ported this lip out to match the 50mm upper, you end up with what? 
The same damn thing as a stock 50mm lower.


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## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

hmm ..
didnt know about that ..
i though the 50mm intake manifold was 50mm from top to bottom !!!
dammit


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## 2000GTI (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (Scirocco G60T)*

interesting post, can't wait to see the results


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mbiggy* »_44mm intake manifold? I think you mean 42mm. only ones I know of are 40mm, 42mm, or 50mm.


44 mm Scirocco manifolds exist.


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## blackbunny (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
44 mm Scirocco manifolds exist.

where can i get one?


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## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_The 42mm and 50mm both have the same size ports where it mates the head. The only difference is where the middle section is....the 50mm is wider to match the top.
If you put a 50mm top on a 42mm lower, you would have a hell of a lip that would obstruct flow, and wreck havoc on your pulses. 
If you ported this lip out to match the 50mm upper, you end up with what? 
The same damn thing as a stock 50mm lower.









The man who knows. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scirocco G60T (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mbiggy)*

OK ..
made it more prominent for the blind as well


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## dj age one (Jun 2, 2000)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (CT-gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CT-gti* »_sweet project...results should be interesting...any future plans with the exhaust?...just an idea

yeah, don't forget, if your exhaust isn't tuned properly the whole thing will be for nothing. you wanna make shure your header and collector are tuned properly for your cams. especialy on a 16v where the exhaust side is a big weekness. but I'm shure you know about that stuff.
very cool project. I've always wanted to attempt a project like this. I have all the calculations needed to get the results desired, actually used some of it to modify my header (added to the collector, no more top end but the middle was way smoother, and torque peeked at 2700rpm) but I think I would have custom made a maniflold, would have never thought of chopping one appart. cool project! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-this is very important to understaning performance manifolds and correcting the huge misconseption that velocity is everything-
the big key in manifold tuning isn't getting the velocity of the air up, its about using pressure waves and the velocity to produce a effect that will cause manifold pressure to rise and there for force air into the engine. 

when air is going into the engine it goes in with great speed (say 175CFM) when the intake valve closes the air slams into the valve and creates a shock wave that resonates in the runner, when it hits the plenum it turns around at builds pressure on the valve, but it does so very quickly, and bounces back and forth a few times before the valve opens again, the key with manifold tuining is to get the air pressure to build while the intake valve is open, literaly forcing air into the motor. 



_Modified by dj age one at 1:33 PM 11-16-2003_


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Its finally happening..... (dj age one)*

*DYNO RESULTS*

Click here


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

Bumping this one too.

Josh- Fix the Pics!!! I'm probably the only person who even remembers this thread and work you did, and I've finally got my extra 50mm to do one my self for my 2067cc tall block 16v.

Remember where you came from, don't forget about us valvers!!!


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## redGTInjII (Aug 2, 2016)

I have this manifold :thumbup:


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I just found an old folder on an old computer that has pics that were brought over from an even older computer- and the manifold build pics are in there if anyone is still interested.

Nothing exciting..just manifolds cut in half.


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

Yes indeed,

Post them up, I know I would like to see them


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