# JE vs Wiseco Pistons



## teamx (Mar 6, 2011)

Hi Guys, 

I tried searching for this info but counldn't find anything definitive on the subject. 

I came across this on IE's website

"These are a set of Wiseco 1.8t 20V pistons with 20mm wrist pins. These are another option in addition to JE. They are very high quality pistons which are machined and forged in USA in state of the art facilities, just like JE. One of the major differences is that they use 4032 alloy rather then the 2618 alloy JE typically uses. This alloy isn't quite as strong, but has less thermal expansion, so motors can be built tighter. This is a good thing in these newer VW/Audi which rely heavily on knock sensors. These pistons are an exceptional value because Wiseco truely does huge volume. These are complete sets with rings, wrist pins, and wire locks. 
Use with 144mm x 20mm Rod
9.25:1 Compression ratio 
7cc Dish
Complete Kit with Rings, Pins, and Locks. "




I'm guessing this would only affect the motor (with JE's) at lower temps and once the motor is up to temp all the clearances etc would be fine. I'm looking to produce around 460hp, turbo of choice will be a Garrett GTX2867. I'm sure the Wiseco's could stand up to that but just wondering if there is any benefit as described above over the stronger JE's.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Wiseco boosted shelf pistons are usually a 2618 and the calculated comp on the description is wrong as effective comp ratio based on stock combustion volume and piston dish volume provided is 8.5:1 compression ratio. Having said that I'm very partial to the wisecos over the JEs. I like a nice simple dish without excessive valve reliefs to make up for part of the dish volume. I also like the offset wrist pins of the wisecos. They will be more then fine for your app


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## teamx (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks very much for the feedback.

Sorry my technical knowlegde is a bit basic. Can explain a little bit more regarding the compression ratio differences. Which quoted comp should I be looking at to maintain the stock 9.5 : 1 ratio?

Thanks again.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

If you want to maintain the higher comp ratio; I fan provide CP drop ins or overbores at 81 to 83mm and our brute hx con rod set. The shelf wisecos don't provide the specs you are looking for.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Wiseco boosted shelf pistons are usually a 2618 and the calculated comp on the description is wrong as effective comp ratio based on stock combustion volume and piston dish volume provided is 8.5:1 compression ratio. Having said that I'm very partial to the wisecos over the JEs. I like a nice simple dish without excessive valve reliefs to make up for part of the dish volume. I also like the offset wrist pins of the wisecos. They will be more then fine for your app


offset wrist pins?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Yes. Helps in keeping things quiet. If I'm not mistaken; the stockers may be offset as well so at tdc; if you have zero pin offset; there will be some rod angularity. Not a huge deal but thrust and angles would be altered from design. While the by product is that you'll actually gain a little power with zero offset; you'll also gain a bit more noise and wear


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## teamx (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks for the info, not very familiar with the CP brand. Seems they made by the same company that manufacture Carrillo conrods, which I am familiar with. Should be of the same high quality and durability.


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## jetta_2.slow (Feb 18, 2008)

CP pistons are a nice part but I have no complaints about the wisecos I've been running.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

They are among the best. Out of the big 3, they just seem to get it a bit better. Ive been using wisecos and cps exclusivwly over the past 12yrs. But you must still employ good practices and assembly procedures to make sure things dont go dont go south fast.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Ya, those descriptions are pretty damn old and need to be updated... 

Currently- the JE FSR piston really beats up on the other shelf offerings. It's the lightest truely heavy duty piston on the market- it has a full width pin with heavy duty pin bosses, yet a lightweight slipper skirt design. Moreover, the slipper skirt is asymmetrical- specifically designed for boosted, small displacement engines. This puts a large skirt area on the heavily loaded thrust side of the piston, and a smaller one on the opposite side. 

The FSR pistons come with an offset pin and are very quiet in the bore, no issues there whatsoever.

The JE's also have better finish and higher flatness tolerances then the wiseco's on the ring land grooves and other critical areas. They come with a higher quality, american made pin as opposed to the taiwanese pin that comes in the Wisecos. 

The wiseco certainly has its place, but if you are looking for the best, the extra $100 or so is justified for the JE's... They are the clear leader in piston tech right now, especially if you are talking about a small, boosted engine- nobody has anything that is even similar to their asymmetrical slipper skirt forgings. 

There is a shelf JE at 9.25:1 which is almost smack on the true OE compression ratio- which was never 9.5:1 in the first place. They always CC out a bit lower then what VW stated.


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## teamx (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks very much for the info. Like I said my mechanical knowledge is general and "principle based" at best, I know a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but not much of anything lol.

I'm partial to JEs as I know their very very strong. A friend of mine has had a set in his boosted BMW M3 for over 5 years now and the car hasn't skipped a beat. Granted your engine builder better know what his doing otherwise NO part will survive.

Thanks for the info, definitley didn't know about this new development


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

what are you planning on doing with this car? Do you plan on dailying it mostly? While slipper skirts have come a pretty long way, on a daily, I would rather run full skirted pistons. You have more uniform thermal expansion properties and more durability in the long run. This will mean that rebuild intervals would be lessened w/ full skirts.


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## teamx (Mar 6, 2011)

It will be daily driven most often and run some track day events every month or but eventually it will evolve into a pure track racer only.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> what are you planning on doing with this car? Do you plan on dailying it mostly? While slipper skirts have come a pretty long way, on a daily, I would rather run full skirted pistons. You have more uniform thermal expansion properties and more durability in the long run. This will mean that rebuild intervals would be lessened w/ full skirts.


That's not really true, in fact that's really the beauty of the asymmetrical piston- it has quite a large skirt on the heavily loaded side. You aren't really giving up any useful skirt area on that side of the piston. If you want it to last even longer, run a skirt coating. 

The slipper skirt pistons are also stronger and more rigid in a lot of ways- the skirt is much better supported and less likely to collapse because it has two large box struts holding it- the unsupported span is much shorter then a full round piston. They used to be quite an expensive upgrade from most aftermarket piston co's- JE is really killing the market by giving this away as a free upgrade. However- we can still order all of their shelf or custom piston on either forging, so whatever floats your boat.  

Even the factory pistons are slippers on all the newer stuff. The only reason the aftermarket is lagging so far behind is because most of the forgings were for all motor only, with very small skirts on both sides, narrower pins and pin bosses for low cylinder pressure, etc.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Yes, I understand that slippers need some reinforcements to hold stable. Most piston companies will offer the slipper design. Alot, if not all, of the piston manufacturers have and will offer it, even as standard in custom format. CP's are just called X-forgings and you can order them in whatever custom shape you desire. You got shorter pins and overall lighter piston assembly. You can set it up w/ symmetrical or assymetrical skirts. Some of the OEM's do incorporate the tech to a very limited degree. You can still see the substantial thrust area in their designs. I know for a fact that on most endurance races, they incorporate full skirts over the slippers which are popular in drag


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## speeding-g6O (Nov 22, 2011)

will a Garrett GTX2867 even be able to produce 460hp?

EDIT: claims 475hp, but that is at the maximum ragged edge.... wouldnt you want to run it a little bit less than the peak maxxed out level?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

speeding-g6O said:


> will a Garrett GTX2867 even be able to produce 460hp?


That'll always be the question. The application and actually applying based on it. No need to do anything super exotic here. The 2867 should be able to make 450hp to the crank however


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

> [email protected]
> Wiseco boosted shelf pistons are usually a 2618 and the calculated comp on the description is wrong as effective comp ratio based on stock combustion volume and piston dish volume provided is 8.5:1 compression ratio. Having said that I'm very partial to the wisecos over the JEs. *I like a nice simple dish without excessive valve reliefs to make up for part of the dish volume.* I also like the offset wrist pins of the wisecos. They will be more then fine for your app


Me too. If you look at IE's website, you will see JE pistons for their 2.1L stroker kit with multiple valve reliefs.

http://www.intengineering.com/1-8t-20v-2-1l-stroker-kit-06a-bring-your-own-crank










However, if you take a look at the picture below, you will see this same kit with JE pistons installed on my bored out engine block (9.5:1 CR)










Notice the single valve relief on the right side of piston. So, either the picture on IE's website is incorrect, or I was sent the wrong piston set. The stroker kit from IE fits perfect, though, in every respect. So I doubt that they are the wrong pistons.

Maybe [email protected] can explain. 

BTW - I am also going with the GTX2867R but with 2.1L (wanted to keep the GT28R-like performance below 3000 RPMs). This should make for a fun combo.



> speeding-g6O
> will a Garrett GTX2867 even be able to produce 460hp?
> 
> EDIT: claims 475hp, but that is at the maximum ragged edge.... wouldnt you want to run it a little bit less than the peak maxxed out level?


It can make about 47 to 48 lbs. at just over P2/P1 = 2.5 (about 22 psi). Yes, it will be at the ragged edge, but no different than someone maxing out a GT3071R to the 485 to 500 HP (crank) mark.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

You will love that turbo. Perhaps a bit overkill on the motor but it will be a very quick spooling torque monster. I just finished on a local vehicle utilizing just drop in CP's and Brutes with my SS vbanded setup. Very fun combo :thumbup:

Doesnt look like much but this is a purpose built car


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

My engine builder, Bill Schimmel, convinced me to bore out the engine block to 83mm. I was originally going to keep 81mm stock bore with ALH crank and GTX2867R. The extra displacement with 83mm bore maxes out the turbo right at 6500 RPMs redline (stock displacement = 7500 RPMs redline). I guess I can alway upgrade to GTX3071R in future. Yeah, this should be a very fun combo. I got real spoiled with quick spool of GT28R.

Not to thread jack, but here is pic of GTX2867R with (optional) GT28R compressor housing:










It will drop right into my existing hardware without any modifications.



> Doesnt look like much but this is a purpose built car


Is that a passenger-side inlet? If so, that's almost identical to my setup which I pieced together myself back in 2008/2009. This was right around the time that Pag Parts started offering their off-the-shelf kits I believe. Everything on the market before that time with either crappy (ATP) or too expensive (APR).

At the bottom of page 3 of the "Official Big Turbo Engine Bay" thread is my setup (#105):

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...Engine-Bay-Thread!/page3&highlight=engine+bay


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## teamx (Mar 6, 2011)

speeding-g6O said:


> will a Garrett GTX2867 even be able to produce 460hp?
> 
> EDIT: claims 475hp, but that is at the maximum ragged edge.... wouldnt you want to run it a little bit less than the peak maxxed out level?



Very good point


The main reason for choosing that turbo is for its spooling characteristics, as the car will be used for track days I want something that will give good response at low rpm while still being able to maintain power at higher RPM. That's also why I'd want to keep the comp ratio as close to stock as possible. The idea is to run an 82mm bore at stock 9-9.25 : 1 comp ratio.


I'm not too concerned with out and out power figures, 460hp a ballpark figure at the crank that im looking at, a little bit either way won't matter to me. Driveability is more important to me then dyno figures. 

I have to add, the insight and comments on this thread all add value, best forum I've visited. Thanks for everyone's input.


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## dubbin_boho (Dec 4, 2007)

mainstayinc said:


> Me too. If you look at IE's website, you will see JE pistons for their 2.1L stroker kit with multiple valve reliefs.
> 
> http://www.intengineering.com/1-8t-20v-2-1l-stroker-kit-06a-bring-your-own-crank
> 
> ...


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

> dubbin_boho
> here's my 2.1L bottom end.. my pistons have the valve reliefs


That's very interesting. It also looks like your piston dishes are shallower than mine. It's clear that I don't have JE 9.5:1 CR pistons in my engine block. Perhaps they are another brand? I thought that JE were the only ones who made off-the-shelf pistons for the 95.5mm TDI crank. I know that Mahle doesn't make an off-the-shelf piston for this application (they can probably be custom ordered though).

I'll have to contact Bill Schimmel and ask him what pistons he put in my engine block.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Not saying that its an absolute law but when you have major combustion events due to tuning or component failure, what is susceptible is always the weakest link in the chain. Smooth dishes with small rolling shapes with substantial, even walls have less weak areas. When you have sharp pockets and edges, heat, naturally, overcomes those areas first. This is why i dont like a lot going on on my piston crown. In the event that you are degree'ing cams ver o+10/-10deg's and/or have super high lifts or duration, you'll have no choice but I dont think they even need to be very deep. I have had complete flat tops with only the center intake recess on with 3658's without event.

Here you can see what I'm trying to illustrate. You can see the areas being effected. Even on the adjacent cylinder in the exact same spot...


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## DanA4 (Feb 28, 2011)

speeding-g6O said:


> will a Garrett GTX2867 even be able to produce 460hp?
> 
> EDIT: claims 475hp, but that is at the maximum ragged edge.... wouldnt you want to run it a little bit less than the peak maxxed out level?



I got 415 all wheel horsepower out of a B7 A4 2.0T FSI with a GTX2867 on 34psi, pump 93 + Meth


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> This is not necessarily a bad thing. Not saying that its an absolute law but when you have major combustion events due to tuning or component failure, what is susceptible is always the weakest link in the chain. Smooth dishes with small rolling shapes with substantial, even walls have less weak areas. When you have sharp pockets and edges, heat, naturally, overcomes those areas first. This is why i dont like a lot going on on my piston crown. In the event that you are degree'ing cams ver o+10/-10deg's and/or have super high lifts or duration, you'll have no choice but I dont think they even need to be very deep. I have had complete flat tops with only the center intake recess on with 3658's without event.
> 
> Here you can see what I'm trying to illustrate. You can see the areas being effected. Even on the adjacent cylinder in the exact same spot...


Out of curiosity, what was the setup that blew up in those pics?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

groggory said:


> Out of curiosity, what was the setup that blew up in those pics?


Those are random pics of pistons with valve reliefs. If you want to see something a little more app specific to the 1.8t, this is 01ttgt28's piston that i saw on his thread the other day. Again, this is not to say that there wouldnt have been damaged, but it might've been more resistant to the heat if there was more material in this area. When you machine deep reliefs and you leave thin walls and the crown on the machined part gets thinner. I see alot of piston companies getting a bit too overzealous with this...


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

> [email protected]
> *This is not necessarily a bad thing.* Not saying that its an absolute law but when you have major combustion events due to tuning or component failure, what is susceptible is always the weakest link in the chain.


I agree. I definately prefer my mystery pistons with simple dish design over the JE's. I originally wanted Mahle pistons for this application, but IE didn't offer those with 95.5mm stroke.



> Smooth dishes with small rolling shapes with substantial, even walls have less weak areas. *When you have sharp pockets and edges, heat, naturally, overcomes those areas first.* This is why i dont like a lot going on on my piston crown.


Which also causes pre-detonation due to the hot spots on the piston crown. This ultimately reduces power in the engine.



> In the event that you are degree'ing cams ver o+10/-10deg's and/or have super high lifts or duration, you'll have no choice but I dont think they even need to be very deep. *I have had complete flat tops with only the center intake recess on with 3658's without event*.


Therefore, the multiple valve reliefs on the JE pistons are not necessary.



> Here you can see what I'm trying to illustrate. You can see the areas being effected. Even on the adjacent cylinder in the exact same spot...


Great illustration of poor piston design in a high-horspower application.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

> DanA4
> I got 415 all wheel horsepower out of a B7 A4 2.0T FSI with a GTX2867 on 34psi, pump 93 + Meth


415 AWHP x 1.20 = 498 Crank HP. Those are great numbers. For comparison, here is a summary of numbers posted in the Official Dyno Thread of those people running the GT3071R

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2698530-Official-Dyno-Thread&highlight=official+dyno

PAGE.....HP..........USER
11........423..........Vegeta Gti
9..........413..........vladGTI 
8..........415..........vwturbowolf
8..........429.8.......Stroked1.8t 
5..........407..........2001TTransport
5..........406..........familydub
5..........367..........robbyrr
5..........420..........robbyrr
5..........406.82......Vegeta Gti
4..........401.9........VWAUDITEK 
3..........406.8........WOB-SH573 
3..........374..........Lysholmrado 
2..........412..........fxgtiturbo 
1..........400..........Audi4u 
AVG......405.88

My goal is 495 WHP with the GTX2867R using E85.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

May i ask about the rattling noise the Wisecos produce guys? Where is it coming from?

My car as well as another 3 friends of mine with similar setup GT28RS, 2871 etc etc are all using wisecos 81mm.

I bought mine from IE and we upgraded the engines internals with wisecos 81mm, scat rods and calico bearings +0.0000....1 clearance.


As soon as the engine starts you can hear a small rattling noise. Like a constant knock similar to the diesel engine knock.

I hope you get the idea.

When the engine is hot that noise is a lot lot louder.

Its not coming only from my car...all of my friends with Seat ibiza cupras and wisecos are experiencing this identical noise with wisecos 81mm.

The Mahle pistons dont seem to produce this noise. Some JEs do, somes dont.

Is that noise coming from the piston skirts hitting the cylinder walls?

I am thinking that due to the Wisecos material, they do not expand that much so the clearance between piston and cylinder is bigger when temp builds producing this noise from the piston skirts.

Is that the reason or my thoughts are wrong?

Also if that is the case would that mean that cylinder walls would become oval shaped after say 50 000 kms? meaning that the engine will need to be rebuilt and oversize pistons would have to be used then?

If i knew that from the beggining then i wouldnt go with wisecos.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

What you are describing may not be a piston issue. Pistons do not get louder as the engine heats up. It would quiet down as they expand if anything. Check your lifters. If that checks out' you may want to check your bearing clearances. To check this' try a thicker grade of oil before tearing things apart.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

one of my lifters has always been noisy. Its not that thought. Also all of the other cars with wisecos (friends) produce the same noise!

ill try and shoot a video of that noise


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Forgot to mention that i was using Mobil 1 esp formula 5-30 oil and switched to 5-40W Red line and the rattling is still there.

I think its piston slap. After doing some research on the net i cam accross many threads in varioous forums about wiseco piston slap so i thought it was something common.

Mine is quiet when cold but gets louder when hot.

One thing i forgot to mention and got me worried was the piston ring clearance. I was helping during the engine internals upgrade so the piston rings were installed without any modification to the pistons. My engine had 38800 kilometers and the builder from his experience told me they need no modification at all (filling etc) So all of the rings for all cylinders went it without any modificiation...

I am pretty sure that not the way to go...however he has built many many 1.8t engines like that and none of them failed so far.

What can i say...i am not the expert...Could this be the reason for that? 

The same garage has installed mahle pistons to another friend and no piston slapping is found there...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I think you need to go over things. Whet youre describing is going against what normally happens when you have noisy pistons. How much cylinder honing did you do? Just a few swipes up and down? If the same exact thing is happening to others' I have to ask.. the small valve relief on the piston.. which side is it on? The pins are offset and if the pistons are installed backwards' they will be extremely noisy. If its a shop that has done a few of these' this is doubtful' but ive seen some crazy things over the years. Another scenario would be the pin offsets were machined wrong


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

brwmogazos said:


> May i ask about the rattling noise the Wisecos produce guys? Where is it coming from?
> 
> My car as well as another 3 friends of mine with similar setup GT28RS, 2871 etc etc are all using wisecos 81mm.
> 
> ...



RD rods or non RD rods fitted to these engines?


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## a4e3y5 (Jan 21, 2009)

brwmogazos said:


> one of my lifters has always been noisy. Its not that thought. Also all of the other cars with wisecos (friends) produce the same noise!
> 
> ill try and shoot a video of that noise


My friend has a beetle turbo and it was making that kind of noise....the pins were making the clanking noise.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

brwmogazos said:


> ...told me they need no modification at all (filling etc)* So all of the rings for all cylinders went it without any modificiation*...


Did he check this to make sure? This would make sense if they needed filing as the engine heats up. Ive never just dropped in 'dropin' pistons without at least checking. I don't ever recall not filing at least the top compression ring when installing either in a healthy cylinder


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## DanA4 (Feb 28, 2011)

mainstayinc said:


> 415 AWHP x 1.20 = 498 Crank HP. Those are great numbers.
> My goal is 495 WHP with the GTX2867R using E85.


Thanks, that was on RAI's Mustang dyno also, which consistently reads ~30whp less then the local dynojet.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

DanA4 said:


> Thanks, that was on RAI's Mustang dyno also, which consistently reads ~30whp less then the local dynojet.


Was that with stock 10.5:1 compression ratio? Also, which exhaust manifold (T3, T28 etc.)?


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I think you need to go over things. Whet youre describing is going against what normally happens when you have noisy pistons. How much cylinder honing did you do? Just a few swipes up and down? If the same exact thing is happening to others' I have to ask.. the small valve relief on the piston.. which side is it on? The pins are offset and if the pistons are installed backwards' they will be extremely noisy. If its a shop that has done a few of these' this is doubtful' but ive seen some crazy things over the years. Another scenario would be the pin offsets were machined wrong



The funny thing is that i always knew things were more complicated...thats why i am asking.

So lets start...

Cylinder honing...We did not use any tool...My engine had 38 800 kms. You could still see the factory honing lines. However by hand he did only a few swipes up and down with some sanding paper...
Valve relief on the piston??? You mean on the crown that small area 'missing' so that the intake valve has some clearance? That was installed ok...
First time i read that pins are offset was in this thread...I doubt this was taken into consideration...
You are right to say youve seen crazy things...cos i also thought it should have been more complicated than that...
Pin offsets were machined wrong from factory you mean?
All i noticed during the install was that one of the pins wouldnt go easy in the piston so it needed a bit of a small push to go into the piston.
The pin wouldnt rotate thought freely inside the piston-rod compared to all of the other piston-rod combos. He told me once installed and engine is started it will have no probs...

I may be wrong though however i would be greatful if you could describe me the process (pin offsets). Is there an indication on the pin itself which side of the piston it should go to?

Here are some pics of the build...




















One of my concerns has always been the piston rings. they were not filed down or checked for clearance...they were installed out of the box without any modification.

I knew you have to adjust each cylinders piston rings seperately to the clearance you need. I was told my engine had so many kms and wear that no adjustment was needed to the piston rings....


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Did he check this to make sure? This would make sense if they needed filing as the engine heats up. Ive never just dropped in 'dropin' pistons without at least checking. I don't ever recall not filing at least the top compression ring when installing either in a healthy cylinder




Nope buddy...LOL...he didnt use any dial to check clearance...No filling whatsoever...just his bare eyes....lol

At that right instance i got very worried as from my little experience we should have checked for clearance...

I was told by a friend this noise is common on all wisecos and its piston slap. After say 50 000 kms i would need a rebuild...


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

badger5 said:


> RD rods or non RD rods fitted to these engines?




hey buddy. Whas RD rods?


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

I've got Wiseco's from Arnold and don't hear any "slap".. When I built my engine though I filed the rings, mostly the top ring as most of the others were is spec... Just note though only drove car 100 miles this last summer due to problems


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Pusing in pins and having it bind in the small end of the rod is very bad. Pins must float in the pin bushing and the piston bosses. If it gets stuck in the pin bushing, it'll end up wallowing out the pin bosses on the piston, which will eventually start to clatter... the pin bushings, when tight, need to be measured and honed when fitment is tight and re-measured. Measuring by eye? Up and down with sand paper will also not get the desired hatch that the cylinders need as well...


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Pusing in pins and having it bind in the small end of the rod is very bad. Pins must float in the pin bushing and the piston bosses. If it gets stuck in the pin bushing, it'll end up wallowing out the pin bosses on the piston, which will eventually start to clatter... the pin bushings, when tight, need to be measured and honed when fitment is tight and re-measured. Measuring by eye? Up and down with sand paper will also not get the desired hatch that the cylinders need as well...


So you think that slapping noise is coming from my only piston pin that got stuck in the rods bushing?

In other cars he built he had no issues like that. he told me not to worry as it will work just fine when the engine is fired.It will loosen up...

Would the engine need a rebuilt after say a few thousand kms? If i keep the car that long, i will be visiting another garage + buy some oversize pistons etc etc and have it done properly...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

brwmogazos said:


> So you think that slapping noise is coming from my only piston pin that got stuck in the rods bushing?
> 
> In other cars he built he had no issues like that. he told me not to worry as it will work just fine when the engine is fired.It will loosen up...
> 
> Would the engine need a rebuilt after say a few thousand kms? If i keep the car that long, i will be visiting another garage + buy some oversize pistons etc etc and have it done properly...


I have no way of giving you this information. It will loosen up means it will run dry for a while before it does. It will stay binded long enough to perhaps damage the piston. A floating wrist pin doesnt make abrupt movements and the piston bosses are just machined into the piston material. It is not designed to have a pin rotating in there at a high rate...


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Im guessing that the engine builder clearanced the cylinder bores as they should be for the 2618 alloys more commonly used instead of the 4380 alloy THAT YOU HAVE...

Meaning he bored the engine slightly to big for your particular pistons. 

You see; the 2618 needs a bigger bore as they expand more. What happens when you put a 4380 piston in a bore machined for a 2618 piston?

Piston slap...

Most obvious answer IMO; as most engine builders are used to using the more common 2618 alloy..


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Rod Ratio said:


> Im guessing that the engine builder clearanced the cylinder bores as they should be for the 2618 alloys more commonly used instead of the 4380 alloy THAT YOU HAVE...
> 
> Meaning he bored the engine slightly to big for your particular pistons.
> 
> ...


Could you generalize your knowledge on that? I'll add it to the faq under pistons. Start up a section on piston materials and bore sizing. Plus some pros and cons. Hell, that probably warrants a whole thread


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

groggory said:


> Could you generalize your knowledge on that? I'll add it to the faq under pistons. Start up a section on piston materials and bore sizing. Plus some pros and cons. Hell, that probably warrants a whole thread


Simple... 

2618 alloy expands more than 4380 alloy; so a given piston to wall clearance will need to be looser for a 2618 alloy piston, than for a comparable 4380 alloy piston of the same size.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Rod Ratio said:


> Simple...
> 
> 2618 alloy expands more than 4380 alloy; so a given piston to wall clearance will need to be looser for a 2618 alloy piston, than for a comparable 4380 alloy piston of the same size.



No boring at all buddy in my case. Just a quick cleaning of the walls with sandpaper...


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

brwmogazos said:


> No boring at all buddy in my case. Just a quick cleaning of the walls with sandpaper...


You shouldn't have done that. Better to do nothing than that.

Sorry; I didn't follow the specifics of your setup. That said; I don't know if thats even your problem.

Just spitballing here buddy


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

brwmogazos, I think you're just finding out the difference between people who build things that work, and people who build things _right_. Your engine builder skipped some important steps, and it's impossible for Arnold to definitively state what parameters are out of spec without him tearing into your engine. I couldn't find an engine builder in my city who inspired any confidence in me, so I ended up learning enough here to build it properly myself. It's unfortunate, but it's really only maybe 1/20 people that I would consider to be quite proficient at their respective craft.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

^^^nailed it:thumbup:


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

jbrehm said:


> brwmogazos, I think you're just finding out the difference between people who build things that work, and people who build things _right_. Your engine builder skipped some important steps, and it's impossible for Arnold to definitively state what parameters are out of spec without him tearing into your engine. I couldn't find an engine builder in my city who inspired any confidence in me, so I ended up learning enough here to build it properly myself. It's unfortunate, but it's really only maybe 1/20 people that I would consider to be quite proficient at their respective craft.


I agree buddy!
I wish i had the tools to do it myself back then. & the knowledge too...

However i read many manyu threads about slapping wisecos thats why i posted here + gave some details+errors i thought i saw during my engine internal upgrade .

now its too late.

I dont ill do an upgrade on my next car other than full exhaust, ecu reprogramming and intake...less chances for something to be done wrong lol...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

brwmogazos said:


> I agree buddy!
> I wish i had the tools to do it myself back then. & the knowledge too...
> 
> However i read many manyu threads about slapping wisecos thats why i posted here + gave some details+errors i thought i saw during my engine internal upgrade .
> ...


If you google 'slapping (insert piston mfr of choice here)' you would find accounts of just about every brand making noise at one point or another. Sometimes it is the piston. Sometimes its the cylinder. Sometimes its User error. If you're not measuring and checking things as you are assembling' you have a lot of faith my friend. Proper measurement of component tolerances can be an art form as well


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

brwmogazos said:


> hey buddy. Whas RD rods?


Rifle drilled or non rifle drilled...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Rod Ratio said:


> Simple...
> 
> 2618 alloy expands more than 4380 alloy; so a given piston to wall clearance will need to be looser for a 2618 alloy piston, than for a comparable 4380 alloy piston of the same size.


FAQ'd under Pistons


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

groggory said:


> FAQ'd under Pistons


:beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I just realized we don't have a good one shot piston FAQ written yet. 

...I think I'm gonna go start one.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

groggory said:


> I just realized we don't have a good one shot piston FAQ written yet.
> 
> ...I think I'm gonna go start one.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## stevemannn (Apr 17, 2008)

groggory said:


> I just realized we don't have a good one shot piston FAQ written yet.
> 
> ...I think I'm gonna go start one.


:thumbup:

alot of good info in here. started doing a bit of research on my build im gonna start,and this thread answered alot of questions i had,and alot of things i had no idea about :beer:


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