# To all the Air to water intercooler syatem users, I have a question??



## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

*To all the Air to water intercooler system users, I have a question??*

I already have the whole kit setup and I am installing it along many other parts on my car. 

I have a bosh cobra pump, like the aux pump that comes stock but bigger. also got a decent size reservoir (ICE BOX) and a radiator with a dual fan setup. 

I am mounting the reservoir in the trunk spare tire well which is below the intercooler level I am thinking that whenever I want to dump ice in there it might overflow due to its lower location, but I am not sure if the water pump might block the flow back meaning that it will create a vacuum effect not letting the water to flow back to the reservoir through the hose ahead of it nor let water flow back from it either. 

I know a few people has it mounted in there so how do you go about that? 

I might need to put a 3 way valve or something to drain the water every time I want to open that reservoir I guess is one option, just want to see if there is any other options out there. 


Thanks in advance. 

Luis


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## 16v lover (Feb 17, 2007)

my friends that have built over a dozen awic setups have told me that for the system to work right the reservoir has to be higher then the cooler or there will be air pockets in the cooler instead of it being full of cold water at all times.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

16v lover said:


> my friends that have built over a dozen awic setups have told me that for the system to work right the reservoir has to be higher then the cooler or there will be air pockets in the cooler instead of it being full of cold water at all times.


 yeah what I thought. any idea on what systems he install or builds? 
any reference from what works and what doesnt?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

hey guys, I would like to see if anyone out there is familiar with water to air intercooling in their turbo cars. 

I have pretty much all the parts I will need for this and would like to hear your input 

this is how I will set up my system to circulate. to figure out flow, the pumps are gravity fed from the reservoir therefore, pushing water away from it 











I will use all 3/4" hoses and fittings 

most likely the rear fans will run all the time pulling air through the Heat Exchanger (AKA Radiator) at the track but will have an on off switch for whenever I dont want to use them. 

The fan in the front I will decide if I want to use it later, An option to improve cooling while not moving maybe using a switch to turn it off while the car is moving. still undecided on that. 

I am still debating the location of the reservoir, it has to go above or at the level of the highest point of the system so it keeps the bubbles out of the intercooler for max efficiency, or just build a neck up for filling it up that is detachable. The reservoir is an ICE BOX so I could dump ice for even greater cooling. 

what do you guys think about the circuit of cooling water only and then the other circuit for cooling charge air? the Radiator is 26"*7"*3.5" so it is plenty big I think but will keep the air temps down and being the shorter circuit it circulates more water ...... and specially colder water to the mix which will keep the average water temps as low as possible. 

I am just waiting on free time to work on it !!!!  it has been slowly progressing though. 

definitelly will update with pictures later on the week 

Oh hand all its going in to an R32 turbo. here are some pics of were the radiator is going to be mounted in the trunk  ........................ yes in the trunk 





































and one of the engine before 










what it used to do before with stock cats, I decided to upgrade the intercooling system and few other things ....... water meth, bigger hot side and better flowing exhaust


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## 16v lover (Feb 17, 2007)

from the looks of that heat exchanger its good to cool oh say 1200hp worth of hot water lol i think you have a very interesting idea with the two exchangers and pumps but iv allways found that the simplest setups work best, i think if you stick with that big core heat exchanger it will more then do the job for you. just my .02$.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

16v lover said:


> from the looks of that heat exchanger its good to cool oh say 1200hp worth of hot water lol i think you have a very interesting idea with the two exchangers and pumps but iv allways found that the simplest setups work best, i think if you stick with that big core heat exchanger it will more then do the job for you. just my .02$.


well I am using the other small HE because it was the stock auxiliary radiator which I am bypassing and conveniently was located in the path I was choosing for my water lines so I thought that if its there why not use it


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Also I have a little update for the system, maybe it might just work a bit better. 










comments??

thanks

Luis


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## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

I ran one on my 1.8t 3076R befor it got broken into and stolen last week. System went. Ice box, above IC core height wise, bottom port on box went to the bosh pump, into intercooler, out of intercooler into heat exchanger in the front, out of exchanger then back to the tank. Ice tank also had another port on the bottom with a petcock to drain the fluid to run ice in it. Logged IC temps and they were rock steady. no problems at all with it. no fans, on them or anything.

We are rebuilding now, PT5857 or 6262, precision intercooler core same setup the rest of the way.

The 2 exchangers might be over kill, but since you already cut out the floor, eff it go for it. :thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

kkkustom said:


> I ran one on my 1.8t 3076R befor it got broken into and stolen last week. System went. Ice box, above IC core height wise, bottom port on box went to the bosh pump, into intercooler, out of intercooler into heat exchanger in the front, out of exchanger then back to the tank. Ice tank also had another port on the bottom with a petcock to drain the fluid to run ice in it. Logged IC temps and they were rock steady. no problems at all with it. no fans, on them or anything.
> 
> We are rebuilding now, PT5857 or 6262, precision intercooler core same setup the rest of the way.
> 
> The 2 exchangers might be over kill, but since you already cut out the floor, eff it go for it. :thumbup:


my first idea was to only use the big radiator in the back but then the auxiliary radiator (tiny thing smaller than the stock IC from a 1.8t) was going to be removed but then I saw the layout of the hoses and it will be right in the path so I decided to use it. 


when you checked for the temperatures in what conditions was it? street? track?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

I am guessing that the system should fill up with about 3.5 to 4 gallons and I have heard that a few oz's of water wetter will help the kit not too corrode. should I go with that or G12 coolant at 15% coolant 85% distilled water should suffice??


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## Little Golf Mklll (Nov 27, 2007)

huichox4 said:


> I am mounting the reservoir in the trunk spare tire well which is below the intercooler level I am thinking that whenever I want to dump ice in there it might overflow due to its lower location


As long as the pickup and dump tubes for the reservoir are always submerged you will not have to worry about this:thumbup: Ill be going with a similar setup, reservoir in the back and heat exchanger with 2 fans in front of the rad on my ABA16vT


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Little Golf Mklll said:


> As long as the pickup and dump tubes for the reservoir are always submerged you will not have to worry about this:thumbup: Ill be going with a similar setup, reservoir in the back and heat exchanger with 2 fans in front of the rad on my ABA16vT


cool man, Thanks, I had a plan in mind just in case the reservoir overflows, putting like a fill up snorkel or something in there either detachable or routed to a hidden location and use shutoff valves.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

UPDATE*** 



















the IC is in and fits great with the custom bracket and brace combo, it barelly moves and that is without having the boost pipes fully clamped ( missing the SRI). once all the boost pipes are done it should be even stiffer. 


the intake is right below it and almost all the way to the headlight, which will get removed any time I am racing


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## 16v lover (Feb 17, 2007)

nice setup man i like it :thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

16v lover said:


> nice setup man i like it :thumbup:




thanks man, I am close to finishing up the ducts for the back heat exchanger and then remove everything seal paint and bolt back up to test the water running through the system to look for leaks. 


maybe in a day or two I will post a better update. 

if anyone out there has pics of their setup and how they routed hoses from the front to the back please post for a better idea :thumbup::thumbup:

:beer:


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hello,
I'm Gandalf on the MR2 board... I thought I would answer your questions here and join up... always good to keep in touch with what's goin' on on other boards!

My A2W build is here:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=250533&page=1&pp=30

It features a Fluidyne HE meant for the Mustang Cobra, reservoir-less, 1.25" - 2" diameter tubing/fittings/inlets/outlets, a Johnson CM90 pump. System is 9.25 liters (2.44 gallons), 2.5 -3.0 psi of water-pressure, 22 - 27 GPM water flow. System equilibriates about 5* F above ambient. A blast through gears 1 - 4 gets the temps up about 15 - 20* F above ambient, cools down to equilibrium temp in under 30 seconds. On the dyno, temps go up about 8* on a 4th gear pull. This is with a GT3082 turbo.

Its nice to see when people put a fair bit of thought into an A2W build. Overall your setup looks really good. I usually pay attention to what pumps people run, because there are lots of misconceptions, lots of misleading advertising, and its hard to know what's best. The Bosch circulation pump for auto apps. part no. 0 392 022 002, also known as the Bosch Cobra pump puts out 5.284 GPM @ .3 bar (1200 dm3 or 1200 liters per hour, at .3 bar). By itself, one of these is not great. But you are running a pair of these? Running them in series as you have more recently diagrammed will bring better turbulent flow to your respective IC and large rear HE, and they will be working equally hard... 

I am unfamiliar with your car's components, namely the aux heat exchanger that you are going to include additionally in the front. Is it in a good cool location, away from heat sources? And does it get good air circulation? Also, are its inlets/outlets 3/4" as well? With two exchangers, you will get more cooling but more pressure drop, but, a pair of pumps will compensate nicely.

I must say, it is unusual to see a front-engine car with all that available front ambient air at the front of the car go to the trouble of installing a HE in the rear... Probably comes down to fitment and modification to the front of the car... try and avoid heat from the exhaust system back there.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

I should add, if your reservoir is lower than the pumps, you might have more issues priming, but, with two pumps, they likley will help each other prime. I am more concerned if your reservoir was lower than the HE's... that's probably what you plan to do with the shutoff valves, to prevent the HE's/system from draining into the reservoir. Once the bubbles are out, you'll be fine. Make the filler tube for the reservoir wide enough to add ice, or it will just be a PITA.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Hey man, Thanks for answering to the post and questions. 

I will comment in bold below in your post



Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> Hello,
> I'm Gandalf on the MR2 board... I thought I would answer your questions here and join up... always good to keep in touch with what's goin' on on other boards!
> 
> My A2W build is here:
> ...


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Update of what I have done in the last few days, I thought I would have been able to atleast fet the AWIC hoses routed and the pumps hooked up to give it a first run but Family visited from far away so i am even bussier. 

here are some pics ........ I am a surgeon with a angle cutter or grinder or whatever name it has 


Getto ducts hahahaha I am now a fabricator ........ 1st rear mounted AWIC radiator with rear bumper vents with fans on an R32 

















































Old exhaust housing ...... T31 a/r .82 .5" dischargenow a t3 1.06 ar v band 3" discharge








I became pretty good at cutting as mentioned above jejeje will re-use some of the bends from this downpipe and the o2 sensor bungs for the new downpipe plus the flex section








V-band adapter flange that is going to be the base of building my downpipe 








turbine nice and a little white meaning that the C2 software was running great and not rich or lean 








the cover painted black with a rubberized paint.......








the next project ........... autox dedicated track car most likelly, although all the blue totes and inside the car is full of parts from few mk1 rabbits to fully restore thisone to the last bit and piece to its original state








how she sits right now and I have only a week to get her up her but and running good to make it to a cruise through the coast here in the PNW!!


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## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

huichox4 said:


> my first idea was to only use the big radiator in the back but then the auxiliary radiator (tiny thing smaller than the stock IC from a 1.8t) was going to be removed but then I saw the layout of the hoses and it will be right in the path so I decided to use it.
> 
> 
> when you checked for the temperatures in what conditions was it? street? track?


Street tuning it. back to back to back 3rd gear pulls. early spring so it was about 60-65degs out. Me being lazy, cheap, breaking stuff and not enough time to work on my own stuff kept me from getting alot fo seat time in it so far. Rebuild will happen in 2 weeks so that will all change.




huichox4 said:


> I am guessing that the system should fill up with about 3.5 to 4 gallons and I have heard that a few oz's of water wetter will help the kit not too corrode. should I go with that or G12 coolant at 15% coolant 85% distilled water should suffice??


I just ran el-cheapo Advanced Auto Parts coolant like you would in a car. Mixed lighter though, 75% water 25% coolant. Coolant is only so it doesnt corrode inside the aluminum components. Plus its cheap to empty it and run ice water for the track then fill it back up later. $8 a gal coolant, then regular tap water, thats it.




Also someone mentioned flow rates. I do alot fo custom computer liquid cooling stuff too... its the same exact idea. It really doesnt make a difference how the pumps are, as long as it has enough balls to fully circulate the water and not strain doing so. High pump speeds, just move the water through the components faster, better if you have higher volume of cooled water ready in the system. Slower speeds actually help when you have less in the system, becasue the water will spend more time in the intercooler getting hot, and more time in the exchangers cooling back down.

Honestly its really a wash. 50/50. Just get a pump that is quality that wont fail and will not strain moving the water through YOUR system layout.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

kkkustom said:


> Street tuning it. back to back to back 3rd gear pulls. early spring so it was about 60-65degs out. Me being lazy, cheap, breaking stuff and not enough time to work on my own stuff kept me from getting alot fo seat time in it so far. Rebuild will happen in 2 weeks so that will all change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, I really want to get my car running soon to see how this idea of mine is going to perform. 

I am having trouble finding a good place to route the hoses without being exposed to the road debre and also stay clear from suspension parts. 

the inside of the car is pretty packed already and the 2 hoses being 3/4" ID 1"+OD are very bulky and won fit through the interior trim at all.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

kkkustom said:


> I just ran el-cheapo Advanced Auto Parts coolant like you would in a car. Mixed lighter though, 75% water 25% coolant. Coolant is only so it doesnt corrode inside the aluminum components. Plus its cheap to empty it and run ice water for the track then fill it back up later. $8 a gal coolant, then regular tap water, thats it.
> Also someone mentioned flow rates. I do alot fo custom computer liquid cooling stuff too... its the same exact idea. It really doesnt make a difference how the pumps are, as long as it has enough balls to fully circulate the water and not strain doing so. High pump speeds, just move the water through the components faster, better if you have higher volume of cooled water ready in the system. Slower speeds actually help when you have less in the system, becasue the water will spend more time in the intercooler getting hot, and more time in the exchangers cooling back down.
> 
> Honestly its really a wash. 50/50. Just get a pump that is quality that wont fail and will not strain moving the water through YOUR system layout.


Weird, my post disappeared...
I'll try again.

Use distilled water instead of tap... better resistance against corrosion. Water is better at heat exchange than coolant, so I would use just enough for prevention of corrosion... maybe around 5%... or water wetter.

In terms of flow, the best exchange of heat occurs with the biggest temperature differential in both the HE and the IC. The best way to get the biggest temp differential is flow, flow, flow. Of course you don't want to strain a powerful pump by running through 1/2" fittings... run the same diameter system or larger, as your pump inlets/outlets. Flow also will give you the fastest recovery. A high flow system will actually let you run less water in the system because more of your water is "working", both absorbing and shedding heat faster. A slow flow system with small capacity is the worst combo.

For best exchange we want to have turbulent flow in the HE and IC. Again, the best way to achieve this is through flow, not through obstructions. Laminar flow through your components offers the least amount of heat exchange, because less water is being exposed to the heat differential surfaces. Placing the pump(s) right before the HE and/or IC helps this.

These are nitty gritty details, but it all adds up and if we go to the trouble of installing an A2W system, may as well get the most out of it.


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

This is an excellent discussion on AWIC as I haven't seen much on it. I'm currently running an upgraded SMIC, but I am going to add an AWIC in series before the SMIC.

I plan to setup a custom reservoir in the trunk so I can still use the spare tire. I thought about running a dual pump setup. The first will be a "keep-cool" pump, with low flow and low pressure, but designed for 100% continuous duty. The other will be the high flow pump and will kick on above a certain pressure or if manually actuated. This is all theory, so if you have heard of something like this I'd appreciate opinions.

Mike


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

If the pumps are in series, with no (complicated) bypass system, the flow will be limited by the slowest pump... although it will put out to the best of its capability... my gut says that its best to have two equal sized pumps if in series... or a larger high-output pump that can run on a range of voltage, as in some vehicle fuel systems, where the fuel pump voltage will drop thanks to a relay setup when the car is only idling... this keeps the fuel from unnecessarily blasting through the rail heating up without being used.


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

My original plan was to have the "weak" pump discharge through a check valve on its way to the system. When operation of the "strong" pump is called for, the weak pump shuts off, the check valve closes, and you eliminate any bypass flow. The strong pump would run for as long as it is called for or for a fixed duration, whichever is longer. 

It just seems like the goal should be to use a cheap pump for continuous duty while your expensive pump would only be on for short duration. This would be less costly to replace =)

Mike


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

my plan is to run two bosh cobras and depending how strained are working in the large amount of piping I have I might even ad a third one up front of the car by the IC. 

right now I need to get all hooked up and see if it actually flows water without leaks and then get some data logging and see if I can get some decent numbers.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

I think ultimately a pump that does not have to work at a high percentage (pressure) of its capability is going to last the longest. So, buying one high output pump which runs through an overall low pressure system will outlast and outflow anything. The pressure drop of the whole system will determine this... fittings, bends, diameter throughout, all together, determines how hard your pump will work. One pump is also the simplest. Then, have a monitor system - temp sensor and display, to indicate AI temps... this gives you instant indication of whether and how your system is working. But, on the other had, having two does give you a temporary "backup" in case one fails. And in the case of a 3/4" system, it eases the burden on one pump and splits the load... I don't think three would be enough of a difference to warrant the hassle, cost, amp load, and complexity. Why have three turbos when one will do? Why have two turbos when one will do?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> I think ultimately a pump that does not have to work at a high percentage (pressure) of its capability is going to last the longest. So, buying one high output pump which runs through an overall low pressure system will outlast and outflow anything. The pressure drop of the whole system will determine this... fittings, bends, diameter throughout, all together, determines how hard your pump will work. One pump is also the simplest. Then, have a monitor system - temp sensor and display, to indicate AI temps... this gives you instant indication of whether and how your system is working. But, on the other had, having two does give you a temporary "backup" in case one fails. And in the case of a 3/4" system, it eases the burden on one pump and splits the load... I don't think three would be enough of a difference to warrant the hassle, cost, amp load, and complexity. Why have three turbos when one will do? Why have two turbos when one will do?


True, I was just thinking to try to keep the system flow balanced, I will have lines fo through a long way and a few inebitable 90* bends atleast the ones going in and out the IC, Radiators and the reservoir. 

I will use the pumps to actually replace at least 2 90* bends and 2 of those pumps are way cheaper than one like you have. funds have been used completely right now so cant afford a better one. 

a lot is going on the car not just the AWIC, it is also getting an SRI, a custom Downpipe due to a new turbo hot side, custom dual exhaust dumps using vacuum activated solenoid valves, an aquamist water/methanol injection hfs-6 kit and a custom rear brace to tight everything out in the rear. on top of that I keep needing misc stuff so funds are super tight


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

With that pair I think you will be just fine... and it is good thinking to position them where you might have a 90* turn otherwise. 

I'm saving up for a welder right now, so I am in major budget mode, lol.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> With that pair I think you will be just fine... and it is good thinking to position them where you might have a 90* turn otherwise.
> 
> I'm saving up for a welder right now, so I am in major budget mode, lol.



I am in desperate need of a welder too!! I have a buddy that was one so I will just use his for now. 

not much progress other than I figured out the way to remove some emissions thing that was in the way and also covered most of the hole I made in the trunk. 

Almost splice a very important wire harness doing all that too :banghead:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

found a nice build, it seems to be very efficient for what it is http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-m...r-cooling/199117-t-gs-air-water-ic-build.html


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

as an update to my thread, I got some stuff done but not as much as I wanted. 

routed all the water lines hooked up one of the two pumps and still need to hook up the reservoir. 
also need to wire the fans and get a good ground place for the battery relocation and cut my rear bumper to make room for the fans to push the air out. then I only need to assemble the interior pieces that I had to take out. its alot of work and hopefully most of it is getting done tomorrow.


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

I hate to thread-jack, but it is rare to see experienced AWIC guys around here so I wanted to pose this question. I am building a system myself and was wondering about my options. The pump I am using is a 55 gal/min Mezeire which is way overkill for my system (I got a really good deal on it). The pump has dual 3/4" outlets but because I am limited to 1/2" on my IC and HE, I planned on plugging one outlet and running the system in series (pump>IC>HE>Res). From what I have been reading here and in a few other places; this may be hard on the pump b/c of the line pressure build-up.

So, would I be better off running the IC & HE in parallel in the system to increase flow & drop pressure? (i.e. feed the IC from one pump outlet and feed the HE from the other) or will this defeat the purpose as I will be pumping the same temp water into both the HE & IC?

Here is my monster pump:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

arupp said:


> I hate to thread-jack, but it is rare to see experienced AWIC guys around here so I wanted to pose this question. I am building a system myself and was wondering about my options. The pump I am using is a 55 gal/min Mezeire which is way overkill for my system (I got a really good deal on it). The pump has dual 3/4" outlets but because I am limited to 1/2" on my IC and HE, I planned on plugging one outlet and running the system in series (pump>IC>HE>Res). From what I have been reading here and in a few other places; this may be hard on the pump b/c of the line pressure build-up.
> 
> So, would I be better off running the IC & HE in parallel in the system to increase flow & drop pressure? (IE feed the IC from one pump outlet and feed the HE from the other) or will this defeat the purpose as I will be pumping the same temp water into both the HE & IC?
> 
> Here is my monster pump:


nice man, it should flow well. I am using two pumps due to the amount of hose and bends in my system, hopefully it will work out ok. 

basically is just size of the parts, how big of a core you have and how big intercooler?? Gandalf find out that the bigger the water passages the better, and a good pump is the best. the one you have seems to be good. :thumbup:


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hello arupp,
That sounds like a good pump, dual 3/4" outlets... I assume that the 55gpm is at free-flow... I would go to a bit of trouble to really let that pump loose. Plugging one outlet: not recommended. Poor pump! Cut off or plug those 1/2" IC/HE outlets, or re-drill/tap them, or weld them shut. Pick up some 3/4" aluminum tube and make some new outlets, roll or grind a bead on the ends, place them at ideal locations on your components to minimize bends. If you have a short distance from your pump to your next component (IC or HE) run both lines to the same component, have two inlets on that component. The reason being, if you run your pump to both your IC and HE at the same time (parallel), you will only be sending 50% of your cold water to the IC! about $75 you could have a local welder weld all of it if you do the prep and cuts.

Wait a second, if you have dual 3/4" outlets, whats the diameter of your pump inlet? If it is 1" or 1.25", run a big return line. A hassle to fit, but if you can, you will maximize your flow.


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## ncsumecheng (Nov 1, 2005)

I have a huge Mezzier pump as well. A bunch of people are haters on the awic, but it works. My IAT's with meth are same or cooler than fmic guys. 

Also, a bigger h2o pump is worth it. If you can double your flow rate, you increase intercooler efficiency 50% by the math. So you can take a 75% efficient system using 10gpm to 87% by doubling the H2O flow rate.

Remember, that is 87% efficiency to getting the charge air to the water temp.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Pressure makes much more of a difference than flow rates. A 10% increase in pressure with the same flow rates will show more of a gain than 10% increase in flow rates with the same pressure. Two pumps in series is a good idea, especially vs parallel. Series: double pressure, Parallel: double flow.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

How does the pressure of the water factor in to the heat transfer properties? Are you flashing it to steam at lower pressures?


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## ncsumecheng (Nov 1, 2005)

Efficiency calculation is based on the temperature difference of the fluids and their mass flow rate. A mass flow rate of 25kg/min at 10psi will yield the same efficiency as 25kg/min at 20psi.

E = (mdot,hot*Cp,hot)*(Thot,in - Thot,out)/((mdot*Cp)lower*(Thot,in-Tcold,out))

I've got one of the hot/colds wrong somewhere there. But you get the idea.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

ncsumecheng said:


> Efficiency calculation is based on the temperature difference of the fluids and their mass flow rate. A mass flow rate of 25kg/min at 10psi will yield the same efficiency as 25kg/min at 20psi.
> 
> *e* = (Thot,in - Thot,out)/(Thot,in-Tcold,*in*))
> 
> I've got one of the hot/colds wrong somewhere there. But you get the idea.


I made two slight modifications to your formula, one was to drop the heat capacity terms and two was to make both terms in the numerator inlets. This defines the effectiveness of the heat exchanger, which is a more meaningful term than efficiency. If you multiply the effectiveness by the Mdot*Cp)lower, you'd get the core heat transfer.

My point was, unless you have raised the water pressure so high that you are no longer boiling (or you've dropped from film -> nuclear boiling), you won't see much difference in heat transfer as the properties of water that determine heat transfer (k, mu, rho, Cp) are insensitive to water pressure.


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

I like the icebox setup. My fabricator has a similar setup w/heat exchanger - he ended up installing a valve to bypass the heat exchanger because it was actually warming the water - I suppose ambient temps and sitting still at the track makes the heat exchanger useless. Absolutely no heat exchanger on our Corrado build - will just have to stock ice when driving it!:laugh:


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Pressure makes much more of a difference than flow rates. A 10% increase in pressure with the same flow rates will show more of a gain than 10% increase in flow rates with the same pressure. Two pumps in series is a good idea, especially vs parallel. Series: double pressure, Parallel: double flow.


Hmmm...
heat transfer is not dependant on pressure at all, unless we are comparing a system that has laminar flow from too low a flow rate that results in a lack of turbulence inside the cores, and therefore less heat transfer. In these circulation systems, pressure and flow are very much dependant on each other. Ultimately, it is very difficult to take the same system and run a different flow rate and somehow have the exact same pressure unless you change out a number of the fittings, inlets, outlets, bends and fittings, or change the pressure drop aka the core components.

Pressure is just a means to achieving the ultimate necessity of *flow *. If you stick an A2W core in a glacier river (with the water-side open to the outside), the water pressure on the unit will be zero, but the flow will be silly good unlimited and you will be hard pressed to get the AI temps coming from it to budge for more than a few seconds. Flow past the cores of the IC and HE is paramount. If you can run massive flow at low pressure through your system, your pumps will love it, less chance of leaks, and excellent exchange. For example, take a typical 3/4" system, keeping the pump and IC/HE the same, we can double our pressure by running 1/2" or 3/8" lines, effectively cutting the flow in half, and the HE and recovery will suffer. Double the flow at half the pressure by running 1" lines, and the HE and recovery will improve even over 3/4" lines. These are not hard-fast mathematical examples, I am giving the general outcomes.

The only reason people have high pressure in their A2W systems is usually because they are limiting themselves to a particular fitting size due to room to run lines or ease of installation, still want the *flow*, and run a tough pump to compensate. The "pressure" inside the IC and HE are usually much less than the pressure in the narrowest bottleneck like the fittings or inlets/outlets, or the lines. That is what creates the pressure.

Parallel pumps will double your flow, but it only makes sense of you run dual IC's or dual HE's, or run dual inlets/outlets on all your components and have double lines... or a single line with a big diameter like 1.25" and both pumps "Y" in. Not very common. Running the pumps in series at opposite ends of the system will spread the workload, increase your pressure, but I doubt your pressure would double... Only perhaps if your pumps were functioning in the lower end of their capability with regards to feet-of-head (say 4gpm for a pump rated at 25 gpm free-flow. You might see 7gpm from two identical pumps in the same system at that pressure... rough guess). If all the pumps are already running at free-flow pressure, your system pressure will never increase no matter how many pumps  and neither will your flow... for example by rigging 5 pumps back to back. Haha its like having two greyhounds tied together running at full tilt.. they won't go double their speed just because they are attached. But throw a harness on them and make them pull a sleigh, lol, they will be glad the other dog is there. Silly example I know, but it makes a point lol. As you approach a pump's max flow capability, the addition of another pump will have increasingly less of an impact.

Two Bosch's in this type of system should be a decent benefit and a balance of cost, flow, workload, and results. Bigger pumps or higher pressure pumps (also thanks to impeller blade angles etc) can better overcome the pressure-drops of lower-diameter systems and flow more through the system due to higher pressure... but would ultimately be maximized with bigger diameter lines.

(Sorry for the long reply, it echoes what leebro61 and ncsumecheng have posted.)


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

IHookItUuup said:


> I like the icebox setup. My fabricator has a similar setup w/heat exchanger - he ended up installing a valve to bypass the heat exchanger because it was actually warming the water - I suppose ambient temps and sitting still at the track makes the heat exchanger useless. Absolutely no heat exchanger on our Corrado build - will just have to stock ice when driving it!:laugh:


Yup, with temps low from ice or dry ice, keeping the HE in the loop will only benefit if you can run enough ice to pre-cool the entire system... which is a lot of ice... it can create a larger cool-sink.... beyond that, exclude the HE and run ice to keep the temps down for 12 secs...


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i figure i'd just mention that if you used two small pumps, right next to each other, same advantages


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## RAZZOR (May 4, 2002)

anyone consider using a "peltier effect cooler" or thermo electric cooler ???
it could run of off 12v and would work in conjunction with a radiator or on its own if incorporated into the reservoir.
I have used a similar device for cooling rc car motors and it works exceptionally well.

http://www.muchmoreusa.com/motor-accys/mmrc3010-lg.jpg


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

ncsumecheng said:


> My IAT's with meth are same or cooler than fmic guys.


Logs? [reading your thread now]

I would love to see some MAT data for a good AWIC. How about on longer trips?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

X2 on this info ^^^^


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> Logs? [reading your thread now]
> 
> I would love to see some MAT data for a good AWIC. How about on longer trips?


normal cruising it should be fine with good temperatures, if you are just cruising and specially if the rpm's are kept in the low end. 


if you are having fun cruising it all depends on how long you keep the right pedal buried. recovery time is the key. 

see Gandalf's videos, I hope you dont mind 

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8766784073115039644#

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3130563821618221885#

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=9053389993797319099#


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> see Gandalf's videos, I hope you dont mind
> 
> http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8766784073115039644#
> 
> ...


Am I reading the notes wrong or are these of AAICing?

Gandalf, do you have a project thread on a site that does not take so long to activate new users? 



> 2. Now the MR2OC Admin will have to approve your account. This can take upwards of 72 hours to complete, but is normally completed within 24 hours. We manually websearch your username, IP address and / or your email address to verify that you are not a spammer or a scammer. If any deragitory information is found, your account will not be approved. You will not be notified if you are not approved. We do this because there are a huge number of spam-bots that try to sign up and sell our membership unusual products.


:screwy:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> Am I reading the notes wrong or are these of AAICing?
> 
> Gandalf, do you have a project thread on a site that does not take so long to activate new users?
> 
> :screwy:


EDIT: wrong post


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The problem with peltier coolers is that they produce so much more heat that cooling it would require a radiator-based water cooled system in-and-of-itself. Then in order to get any reasonable cooling ability out of it, you'd need a unit so large that it would drain your battery in minutes. 

Think about this, the ones that *USED* to be used on computers typically required 30+a at 12v. That's for a measly computer processor.


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> those are air to water IC runs I thought


From the second link:



> MKI.5 3sgte AI temps with 3rd 4th and 5th gear pulls
> Watch this video on video.google.ca
> 03:23 - 2 years ago
> This is with the *A2A IC* ...


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## RAZZOR (May 4, 2002)

thanks for that info. was just a thought seeing the ones we sue for rc work so well.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> From the second link:


ohhh you are correct, it was a2a, I was half asleep when I was going through his thread :thumbup:


later in his build thread he mentioned that recovery time with a2w is very good as well


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> later in his build thread he mentioned that recovery time with a2w is very good as well


I'm waiting for approval to view the MR2 forums


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> I'm waiting for approval to view the MR2 forums


definitelly worth the wait :thumbup:

what he said in another thread 



Gandalf said:


> On my setup (you saw it last summer) the AI temps settle at a normal "equilibrium" around 6 - 8 degrees above ambient, then spike under boost to about 15-20 degrees above ambient, and drop back down to equilibrium within 30 seconds...
> 
> This is just with a blast through the gears, quarter-mile, etc... I have yet to track the car and see how it does under prolonged running.



other people input



bentheswift said:


> My old ST165 (stock everything except for constant-running pump) would do about 40-50F above ambient during a pull through the gears at 16-18psi (sensor in place of the cold start injector, logged with megasquirt). That is on par with most trunk mount air/air setups that I have seen data for in the 3SGTE subforum. I don't know if that tells you that the stock ST165 setup was really good or the average trunk mount air/air is really poor, but I think it says a little bit of both.



another good one from Gandalf



Gandalf said:


> A few other notes...
> My system is definitely very responsive to air passing onto the HE in front... ok that sounds sort of a no-brainer, but what I mean is, when I pull to a stop and idle, the temp will notch up one or two degrees... if i shut the engine off, it will climb as much as five degrees within a few minutes... if I turn my rear deck lid fans on, I get a 1-2 degree drop in AI temps at idle... my air-temp sensor is right after my IC... If I start my engine and run it for a while without turning on my A2W pump, the temps climb slowly and steadily up and up... once I flick it on, it takes around a minute to return the system to its "equilibrium" state, since all of the metal in the system has been heated up to x degrees... this tells me that in my system, the HE in front is doing an excellent job, the pump/flow are doing their job, the sensor is very responsive to the temp changes, and that the challenge, if you can call it that, is actually occurring right inside the IC with the transfer of heat into the water. Again, I want to test this under prolonged running late this summer, and video it, I am just getting a few details taken care of... finally getting around to new boots/bearings/axles...
> 
> Flow is the key, HE location, IC location, IC type, HE type... that is in my experience the descending order of importance.
> ...


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

To clarify, yes those 3 videos are with my previous A2A unit. I wanted to see how the oem IC actually measured up in the coolest location in the engine bay. I also wanted to test the AI temp sensor and display unit.

I have been meaning to post videos of the results of the new A2W, but this is basically what you will see... the AI temps are within a few degrees of ambient, I will punch it through the first 3 gears and into the 4th, basically a qrtr mile run, and the temps will go up maybe 15 degrees, then cool to its previous temperature within 30 seconds. I can repeat this indefinitely. 

Longer trips/highway cruising around 70mph the AI temps raise up about 5 degrees and stay there indefinitely. If I drive through sun or shade that temperature will reflect the change in outside air within 30 seconds. A shady street will drop the temps a few degrees.

I have also added manual control over my front rad fan so that it draws air through both the rad and the HE, so that at full stop and idle, it keeps the AI temps within a degree indefinitely. If I shut the engine off, AI temps (or the temp of the IC pipe) goes up as much as 8 degrees from the sudden lack of cooling all around.

Keep in mind that my system has NO reservoir, 9.25 liters (2.44 gallons). I am basically relying solely on the efficiency of the components, the locations of the components, and the big weapon, _flow_.

Mcstiff wrote:


> Gandalf, do you have a project thread on a site that does not take so long to activate new users?


 The MR2 board is excellent, they go to lengths to maintain the quality of the board, lol yes it takes a bit of time to register... but here is my website for the car, and the IC project(s) page. To be clear, there are two A2W IC projects there, the first one from 2004 I actually built three A2W IC cores using ABS plastic and small copper tubing from ordinary hardware stores. It was unsuccessful from a longevity standpoint due to engine heat and movement stresses on the ABS at the turbo and TB inlets. Fantastic learning experience. The second A2W project is the current one.

http://members.shaw.ca/MKI.5/MR2_Projects_MKI.5/Intercooler/Intercooler_Projects.htm


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

Given the discussion on using two pumps in series vs. parallel I am interested to see real world data supporting either setup. Series pumps placed immediately beside each other vs. series pumps where one is placed as a push before the AWIC and one is placed after the AWIC as a pull - which would take best advantage of the use of two pumps? I imagine the water capacity of the AWIC and the reservoir are limiting factors when a heat exchanger is not used - add a heat exchanger and suddenly ambient temperature is the limiting factor?


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> Longer trips/highway cruising around 70mph the AI temps raise up about 5 degrees and stay there indefinitely. If I drive through sun or shade that temperature will reflect the change in outside air within 30 seconds. A shady street will drop the temps a few degrees.


Good to hear that this is possible. I have been wrestling with having two


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> Good to hear that this is possible. I have been wrestling with having two


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> What is your Setup Mcstiff?
> 
> 
> I am almost ready to fire up mine, maybe tonight and will take some pics and vids to see how everything looks like, I wont be installing the fans for the time being to see how it does relying on purely air flow.


I have not started building, just designing. Currently I am not intercooled with a T3-60 and stock compression. What I am thinking is using a thin but large HE where the Audi 90 (B4) radiator lives (I have a I5 with sidemounted radiator, the later V6 cars had a front mounted rad) and then mounting the IC on the firewall (maybe in the stock battery box). 

Running a S256 or HY35 or HE341ve; the goal is ~350 AWHP (~24 psi/628 CFM @ 7500).


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> I have not started building, just designing. Currently I am not intercooled with a T3-60 and stock compression. What I am thinking is using a thin but large HE where the Audi 90 (B4) radiator lives (I have a I5 with sidemounted radiator, the later V6 cars had a front mounted rad) and then mounting the IC on the firewall (maybe in the stock battery box).
> 
> Running a S256 or HY35 or HE341ve; the goal is ~350 AWHP (~24 psi/628 CFM @ 7500).


seems like you have put a bit of thought on this already. cool to see that link that calculates all that stuff. I dont know how much experience you have but I will just say that you will feel a huge improvement from intercooling not only the bump in power which its actually too keep it there constantly :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> seems like you have put a bit of thought on this already. cool to see that link that calculates all that stuff. I dont know how much experience you have but I will just say that you will feel a huge improvement from intercooling not only the bump in power which its actually too keep it there constantly :thumbup::thumbup:


Nearly any intercooling will be better than what I have now! Even so the performance gain over the stock level (~25%) has been great. Now that I have had the car for a year and a half I am ready for a bit more power and reliability (I have not wanted to track it). 










It would be cool to have an IC in the plenum but I think that is beyond the scope of my resources.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

IHookItUuup said:


> Given the discussion on using two pumps in series vs. parallel I am interested to see real world data supporting either setup. Series pumps placed immediately beside each other vs. series pumps where one is placed as a push before the AWIC and one is placed after the AWIC as a pull - which would take best advantage of the use of two pumps? I imagine the water capacity of the AWIC and the reservoir are limiting factors when a heat exchanger is not used - add a heat exchanger and suddenly ambient temperature is the limiting factor?


If you plan to run without a HE, the water's heat absorbing capacity is your only cooling, and will only last for the amount of time it takes to circulate your water once. If you have a 1/4-mile drag car, and can keep the system from heat-soaking just from idling while you wait to get on track, say with dry ice or an ice chest, this can work. But for street or anything longer than 1/4-mile, not recommended.

The limiting factor will be different for each car and setup. With all components being equal and locations being ideal, heat exchange inside the components and flow will be the limiting factors.

As mentioned, a parallel system would be a very particular and unusual setup... I had a parallel system on my first A2W system (built 2004, the first one in my website link) which used three A2W IC cores in a triangle. The smaller two were supplied by one pump, the other two were supplied by another pump, and the HE was a pair of 3/4" inlet/outlet heater cores mounted down in front of the tranny with an under-car scoop. Because the HE and the ICs were all very close to one another, the lines were very short and so a parallel system with smaller bilge pumps worked well. but this is an exception.

For "normal" one-IC and one-HE setups, a single pump or pumps in series is the way to go. If the installation allows, having a pump push into each of those two components is best, because the pumps themselves create turbulence, and that turbulence will help a bit inside each of the IC and HE cores with heat exchange. When two pumps in series are placed right after one another, you will see the highest pressure immediately after both pumps, and the lowest pressure right before both pumps. If the two pumps are spread halfway apart in the system, you will see slightly less pressure after each pump, but the pressure throughout the system will be more evenly distributed. If you averaged the pressure for the whole system, the number would be identical for pumps-together or for pumps-apart.

If you have a good HE in an excellent location (front of the car, in the nose, outside the engine bay, and in front of the radiator), then the limiting component will likely be the IC core... and so having the pump or pair of pumps right before the IC will help the exchange in the "limiting" component. 

Much of this is "over-thinking" somewhat, and where you place a pair of pumps will make very little difference... but this is a discussion of ideals, so that's my take on it.

As an aside to wrap your head around, pumps like to push. They hate to suck. Having the pump in the lowest location in your system is best. This allows it to do what it loves - push, because it has all the weight of the water above it, and that weight will naturally push down into the pump, minimizing the "suck" effort. Placing a pump in a high location places more emphasis on its sucking ability. This can be exemplified by a much larger taller system that pumps water uphill for 1000 ft, like a forest-fire water pump. That pump will push water 1000 ft up that hill all day, but, if you get weeds in that 6-foot suction hose filter end, and restrict its suction, the pump will shut down. Try and suck water through a 50-foot intake hose, open-flow, with no restriction with that same pump... forget it.

In our tiny systems, it will in all likeliness still work regardless of pump placement (depending if the pump has specific stipulations for its setup), its just nitty-gritty details that can contributer to problems or successes.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

I think that at least the first pump location is critical, At the lowest point, the other one will still be fed by the first one so gravity feeding wont participate much on that pump


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

yes in our systems with two pumps it will make very little difference as long as one is fairly low.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Thanks to all who have been keeping this going. This has been the most informative thread I have found on this setup. I am going to do this for sure, nobody drives ther car at WOT all the time, so this would be a perfect setup for me with going to the track. Plus no cutting of the front end.:thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Thanks to all who have been keeping this going. This has been the most informative thread I have found on this setup. I am going to do this for sure, nobody drives ther car at WOT all the time, so this would be a perfect setup for me with going to the track. Plus no cutting of the front end.:thumbup:


I have seen some cars equipped with the HPA turbokits at the track and they have A2W intercooling with the reservoirs in the engine bay and they managed to do well, I can only see good things coming out from a well thought kit. 

I didnt work too much on my car yesterday due too an awful weather but got my fans wired in and they work great. have not tested the pumps yet and I just need to seal up some stuff and it shoulf be good to go. 

if the weather is good I will post some driving impressions really soon


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

Gandalf's explanation is well thought out. I have seen at the track some very innovative AWIC setups where a large insulated reservoir is used and no heat exchanger is present in the system - I suppose that if you want to extend the time the system makes its cooling capacity available you can just enlarge the size of the reservoir. There is a 3 gallon reservoir in my Corrado project but maybe this simply needs to be increased in volume for longer drives!?


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

IHookItUuup said:


> Gandalf's explanation is well thought out. I have seen at the track some very innovative AWIC setups where a large insulated reservoir is used and no heat exchanger is present in the system - I suppose that if you want to extend the time the system makes its cooling capacity available you can just enlarge the size of the reservoir. There is a 3 gallon reservoir my Corrado project but maybe this simply needs to be increased in volume for longer drives!?


 Without a HE you are limited. As soon as the return line empties into the reservoir you'll be recirculating heated water (the heat from the first pass will heat uncirculated water in the reservoir). Eventually you will not be cooling anything.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

IHookItUuup said:


> Gandalf's explanation is well thought out. I have seen at the track some very innovative AWIC setups where a large insulated reservoir is used and no heat exchanger is present in the system - I suppose that if you want to extend the time the system makes its cooling capacity available you can just enlarge the size of the reservoir. There is a 3 gallon reservoir my Corrado project but maybe this simply needs to be increased in volume for longer drives!?


what track? 1/4 mile or Auto X at the most I suppose, I cant see this working on a 20min lapping session without a heat exchanger. 

assuming that you melt 1 gallon of frozen water (ICE) a minute (most likely its faster and it melts faster once its starts to get smaller) you will need at least 20 gallons of ICE for it to work ..... that is a huge reservoir and not only that, water expands when frozen so its even bigger and it just not good in the weight department. 

I have been thinking of the use of dry ice in reasonable quantities either immersed in a separate (vented) cavity inside my water reservoir to keep water really cold for longer time while on the track and/or packed around the sides of the reservoir. the idea is that Dry ice when it looses its solid form it becomes a gas so it is good to cool the surroundings of the reservoir but not while immersed in the water because it might just introduce a gas in the system. I need to inform myself a bit more on this idea for the track though.


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

I guess I will have to do my own testing to see how long an AWIC without a heat exchanger can cool the intake charge. The heat capacity of water is very high and I think that a properly insulated system with say 5 gallons of ice water should last well over 20 mins. The reason I say this is it takes a lot of energy to change the temperature of water. There will be additional weight - but it would be able to cool the intake charge for a much longer time.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

It is a lot of hassle to replace ice every run. If you have the flow to get that cool water to your IC, it will circulate through your system under probably 10 seconds. By the time you reach staging, that ice has melted from the 60 times it has circulated, depending on how long it takes. The ice will be near gone, but the cooling is invested in the system, which is good. Once your 1/4 mile run is done, you will probably be replenishing the ice.

If that water manages to heat up, there has to be a way to cool it down. I think this is ok for a trailer queen, that does not have to drive 30 minutes to the track... but remember that it will invest heat into that system whenever the engine is on. Temps will just keep climbing, and 5 gallons of warm/hot water will need to be pumped out and replaced with cold water/ice.

I recommend having any reservoir in the coolest location possible. You can take the most insulated box, but leave it in proximity of a constant heat source and eventually it will equilibriate with that source.

A car that is being driven anywhere else but on a 1/4 mile track should have a HE in my opinion. Yes, a dry ice chest can do for a decent period of time, but, it does takes constant upkeep. You need to make sure your system has useable AI temps for the duration of your type of race. If AI temps are exceeding 50*F above ambient, in my opinion the system can be improved. 

And last but not least, get some sort of AI temp gauge and sensor for all of this. Install it in your current setup first, for a point of reference


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

IHookItUuup said:


> I guess I will have to do my own testing to see how long an AWIC without a heat exchanger can cool the intake charge. The heat capacity of water is very high and I think that a properly insulated system with say 5 gallons of ice water should last well over 20 mins. The reason I say this is it takes a lot of energy to change the temperature of water. There will be additional weight - but it would be able to cool the intake charge for a much longer time.


once your charge air temps start to climb in the 140 degree region you will start to dump close to that hot water in to the reservoir and hot water just kills the ice, it doesnt matter if it is insulated because you are actually poring the water that just picked up all the heat from the intercooler back to the system. 

I mean you can do the research and see for yourself that some drag racers need to load ice from run to run, i will give you that their reservoirs are very well sized to keep the weight as a minimum but still they dump a good amount of ice in the reservoirs and its just gone. 

a heat exchanger will even help the ice last a bit longer because if you put it after the intercooler it will reduce the waters temps and hit the ice not too hot. 

do this experiment in your kitchen sink, 

open the faucet and let hot water flow out and put some in a cup with an ice cube and then an ice straight in the path of the water and you will see that it melts it faster were the water is flowing. do it with room temp water and then try cold water and you will still see that always the flowing water melts the ice faster. 
As Gandalf mentioned, FLOW is the most important thing in the system if you have properly sized hardware.


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

What are everyone's thoughts on setting up the pump so that it runs on an RPM dependent relay? My standalone has a switch for this that I was thinking of using. The idea would be to shut off the pump whenever the engine is at idle speed. This way I am not heat soaking the system while sitting at a stop light and no air is flowing through the HE.

I should mention that this a supercharged application (SC is after the TB) that will constantly be pumping heat into the intake especially in high vacuum situations like idle or cruising. I am incorporating a diverter valve to curb this abit though....


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

arupp said:


> What are everyone's thoughts on setting up the pump so that it runs on an RPM dependent relay? My standalone has a switch for this that I was thinking of using. The idea would be to shut off the pump whenever the engine is at idle speed. This way I am not heat soaking the system while sitting at a stop light and no air is flowing through the HE.
> 
> I should mention that this a supercharged application (SC is after the TB) that will constantly be pumping heat into the intake especially in high vacuum situations like idle or cruising. I am incorporating a diverter valve to curb this abit though....


At low RPM your IC can cool the water if your pump is running. I would consider low RPM a recovery phase to cool things back down. 

Will the SC really be making much heat at idle?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

arupp said:


> What are everyone's thoughts on setting up the pump so that it runs on an RPM dependent relay? My standalone has a switch for this that I was thinking of using. The idea would be to shut off the pump whenever the engine is at idle speed. This way I am not heat soaking the system while sitting at a stop light and no air is flowing through the HE.
> 
> I should mention that this a supercharged application (SC is after the TB) that will constantly be pumping heat into the intake especially in high vacuum situations like idle or cruising. I am incorporating a diverter valve to curb this abit though....


you could set up fans to turn on and cool the HE while you are at a stop light using your brake pedal signal or something to a relay with a few seconds delay so the fans dont turn on and off while slowing down in the highway or your RPM idea will work great too, I will make it switch activated (installed it last night) so I can keep them on while on slow moving traffic and at lights/staging lanes etc. I might put a switch for the pumps although my original plans were to run them all the time using the fuel pumps signal to activate the relay but I have then realized that to drain the system I will need to have the car on so I might change that to other signal I could activate from somewhere else like the light switch or something.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> At low RPM your IC can cool the water if your pump is running. I would consider low RPM a recovery phase to cool things back down.
> 
> Will the SC really be making much heat at idle?


how would the IC cool more than a radiator with a fan blasting at it if you are standing still? 

the game is how to maximize heat transfer from the charge air to the water (in the IC) and from the water to ambient air (in the Rad/HE) water absorbs heat better than air so no need for a huge IC to pull tons of heat from the charge air but you need a huge amount of area to pull heat from the water to the ambient air therefore the use of big radiators for the water.

you need the right balance to keep things working propperly. 

someone mentioned that he boiled the water in his system because the tiny motorcycle radiator couldn't keep up with the system heating the water.


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

Mcstiff said:


> At low RPM your IC can cool the water if your pump is running. I would consider low RPM a recovery phase to cool things back down.
> 
> Will the SC really be making much heat at idle?


Yeah, it a lysholm (has internal compression ratio) and they generate lots of heat when you ask them to pump in a vacuum. This necessitates the diverter valve.



huichox4 said:


> you could set up fans to turn on and cool the HE while you are at a stop light using your brake pedal signal or something to a relay with a few seconds delay so the fans dont turn on and off while slowing down in the highway or your RPM idea will work great too, I will make it switch activated (installed it last night) so I can keep them on while on slow moving traffic and at lights/staging lanes etc. I might put a switch for the pumps although my original plans were to run them all the time using the fuel pumps signal to activate the relay but I have then realized that to drain the system I will need to have the car on so I might change that to other signal I could activate from somewhere else like the light switch or something.


Didn't think about running an extra fan at idle...hmm. thanks!


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

arupp said:


> Yeah, it a lysholm (has internal compression ratio) and they generate lots of heat when you ask them to pump in a vacuum. This necessitates the diverter valve.


Interesting, I guess you not @ idle for too long. I would want water moving through the HE when air is moving through it.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

arupp said:


> Yeah, it a lysholm (has internal compression ratio) and they generate lots of heat when you ask them to pump in a vacuum. This necessitates the diverter valve.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't think about running an extra fan at idle...hmm. thanks!


I mean a temp sensor or something might be the best now that I think about it, like the engine rad fans kicking on when temps get past a point. the thing is that once moving the fans are actually an obstruction for air flow either on or off while the car is moving so its all about the balance.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The amount of heat a pump dumps in to the water is insignificant. Let it run full speed all the time.


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The amount of heat a pump dumps in to the water is insignificant. Let it run full speed all the time.


The pump I was referring to in my post was the lysholm (air pump) not the water pump.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Ah my bad. Missed that part


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

Great thread. Nice to see some experienced info with a/w setups.

I'm working on my setup right now, hoping to be "done" in the next month. Mine is for the supercharged ABA in my mk2. I have run it with the neuspeed supercharger for years, which is built into the intake manifold and non-intercooled. I cut the manifold apart and have a 2.5"x6"x6" Bell core that is being placed into the plenum immediately after the charger outlet. The outlet of the IC core then feeds into the lower intake manifold then to the head. This will make for a very short path from charger->IC->head. 

I made the IC end tanks with 3/4" fittings, though the Johnson pump and HE I have both use 5/8" (for now). If/when I ever change the pump, I'll go to one with larger ports on it and replace the HE fittings with 3/4" as well.

The HE I found for $50 was a new unit that came with supercharger setups for Yukons/Tahoes. It's nearly as wide as my radiator, 1.5" thick, and around 9-10" tall (from memory). I mounted it right in front of the mk2's radiator with little room to spare. Luckily the AC was pulled from this car years ago so I had room for it.

The pump is mounted where the charcoal can sat, (inside front pass frame/fender) and the reservoir will be placed directly above it. I planned to plumb it res->pump->HE->IC->res. I was also contemplating triggering the pump on/off by some temp or press. switch but ultimately decided to run it full time. If I sit in traffic for long my dual rad fans will kick on which will pull ambient air through the HE first anyway. If that isn't enough, I'll revisit either added fans or some intermittent pump function.

Once the system is tested I'll put a smaller pulley on the charger and see how well it fares with further elevated IAT's. Just sharing my setup in case it helps someone or raises any new questions. :beer:


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

^^^

I would love to see some results once you get it going. Do you have a project thread? Also, the $50 HE you picked up; do you have a link for more info or did you get it straight from a GM dealer or???


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

Sorry, meant to link to the current thread.

I bought the HE through ebay, but it came in the original packaging I think. I'll see if I still have the box and will give you some pics/info if so. It might be in my thread, too, now that I think of it :thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

blubayou said:


> Sorry, meant to link to the current thread.
> 
> I bought the HE through ebay, but it came in the original packaging I think. I'll see if I still have the box and will give you some pics/info if so. It might be in my thread, too, now that I think of it :thumbup:


Nice build you have there man, the fab work looks good so far, cant wait to see the finished product


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

I have my IC pump on a seperate switch in the cabin, and then I disconnected my front rad fan from its complicated circuit, and slso placed it on a seperate switch in the cabin. That rad fan mounts on the back of the rad, and draws air through both the HE and the rad... it is the oem fan, and it is enough to keep my temps within a degree or two of cruising temperature, regardless of how long I idle... I just have a habit now of flicking the fan on anytime I am in city stop-and-go traffic, or idling for more than a minute... Or else I can overheat!! Haha, it is such a habit now, I don't even notice. ..on a cold night it is not needed for the rad, but always helps move some air through the HE.

This allows me to not have to add an additional fan, since all they do at speed is block the air anyway. (as was mentioned)
Having the IC pump on its own switch is great because for errands, off-boost cruising, commuting, who cares if your IC water temps slowly rise up 30 degrees over the course of 30 minutes? Leave the pump off, and save its longevity! Its also good for being able to run the pump and test it, fill the system, drain the system, etc, without having to run your engine. It comes on exactly when you want and need. Manual! I love it.

If you are planning to do some racing or acceleration and fun, leave the pump on for the duration. It will keep things as cool as possible, even when you are not moving (idling) and no rad fan, because it still gets the heat out of the air inside the IC and into the water and distributes the heat throughout the system... better than keeping the heat inside the IC.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> I have my IC pump on a seperate switch in the cabin, and then I disconnected my front rad fan from its complicated circuit, and slso placed it on a seperate switch in the cabin. That rad fan mounts on the back of the rad, and draws air through both the HE and the rad... it is the oem fan, and it is enough to keep my temps within a degree or two of cruising temperature, regardless of how long I idle... I just have a habit now of flicking the fan on anytime I am in city stop-and-go traffic, or idling for more than a minute... Or else I can overheat!! Haha, it is such a habit now, I don't even notice. ..on a cold night it is not needed for the rad, but always helps move some air through the HE.
> 
> This allows me to not have to add an additional fan, since all they do at speed is block the air anyway. (as was mentioned)
> Having the IC pump on its own switch is great because for errands, off-boost cruising, commuting, who cares if your IC water temps slowly rise up 30 degrees over the course of 30 minutes? Leave the pump off, and save its longevity! Its also good for being able to run the pump and test it, fill the system, drain the system, etc, without having to run your engine. It comes on exactly when you want and need. Manual! I love it.
> ...


I am thinking still if I need to add the pump switch, I just dont want to forget to turn it on and have the car damaged, I plan to run a good amount of boost to well see, I can always add it later.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

My pump switch wiring is basically the same as Gandalf's. My plan was to typically leave it in the "on" position and only turn it off when not needed. I'm also relying on the rad fans to pull air over the HE when things get hot, though for now I've kept them on the stock coolant temp switch. Once I see how well that works, I'll make a change if needed.

This car is just a toy for me, so it doesn't see daily duty. Generally it's spirited driving when I'm behind the wheel which is why the pump will usually be on. It's infrequent that I sit in traffic for more than 2 minutes where I live, if at all.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

huichox4 said:


> I am thinking still if I need to add the pump switch, I just dont want to forget to turn it on and have the car damaged, I plan to run a good amount of boost to well see, I can always add it later.


It might be annoying, but some sort of lighted switch may help remind you if it is off/on should you decide to put it on a switch.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

blubayou said:


> It might be annoying, but some sort of lighted switch may help remind you if it is off/on should you decide to put it on a switch.


yeah it crossed my mind while at the auto parts store, but all those lighted switches just look plain bad even for me who dont care much about aesthetics of the car that much ......, the idea of keeping it on all the time is a great one and then shutting it off whenever I need/want to, I am using already a switch like this so I just need to get another one and install it upside down. 










so when it usually is off it will be on and the safety cover on top of it so I dont turn them off accidentally :thumbup::thumbup:

I'll go get the other switch after work today and see if I get it installed. 

no pics for a build update, my wife is out of the country and took the camera with her


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

That is a good idea (on the switch you posted being flipped). Where do you pick those up locally? I need a couple like that but haven't seen them around (not that I've looked).


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

blubayou said:


> That is a good idea (on the switch you posted being flipped). Where do you pick those up locally? I need a couple like that but haven't seen them around (not that I've looked).


most auto parts stores like autozone, oreilly, napa etc ... should have them they are like $4 to $6 cant remember so not too bad and they area just two way, there are 3 way stuff and others with LEDs too


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

Cool. There's a napa and advance nearby, maybe I'll check today. I go frequently but haven't really payed attention to the switches they had :beer:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

blubayou said:


> Cool. There's a napa and advance nearby, maybe I'll check today. I go frequently but haven't really payed attention to the switches they had :beer:


:thumbup:


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

Radio shack carries a small switch that I frequently use. It is lighted and is on/off but can be converted very easily to a momentary switch. I use it in my after-run radiator fan circuit.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3159591










Mike


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

FaelinGL said:


> Radio shack carries a small switch that I frequently use. It is lighted and is on/off but can be converted very easily to a momentary switch. I use it in my after-run radiator fan circuit.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3159591
> 
> ...


that will work too!!


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> how would the IC cool more than a radiator with a fan blasting at it if you are standing still?
> 
> the game is how to maximize heat transfer from the charge air to the water (in the IC) and from the water to ambient air (in the Rad/HE) water absorbs heat better than air so no need for a huge IC to pull tons of heat from the charge air but you need a huge amount of area to pull heat from the water to the ambient air therefore the use of big radiators for the water.
> 
> ...


Air is still flowing through the IC at idle/low load. During a high load event your coolant is absorbing heat from the IC. Once your load drops you will actually heat the intake air via the IC until an equilibrium is met (your your back to high load). 

Having a switch is not a bad idea but unless ambient is low and you trying to heat up your oil I would pretty much leave the pump on. For the same reasons that volume helps cool the charge air it also helps draw heat out of the water.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

I got my switch covers from an actual helicopter in an airplane graveyard... pretty cool place... needless to say they were pricey. I used regular toggles for switches. This was before any aftermarket covers were available that I could find...


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> Air is still flowing through the IC at idle/low load. During a high load event your coolant is absorbing heat from the IC. Once your load drops you will actually heat the intake air via the IC until an equilibrium is met (your your back to high load).
> 
> Having a switch is not a bad idea but unless ambient is low and you trying to heat up your oil I would pretty much leave the pump on. For the same reasons that volume helps cool the charge air it also helps draw heat out of the water.


I see what you are saying but your charge air will need to be cool and the turbo itself is too hot, therefore the turbo (if you were actually putting high load) will need to be cooled down first until fresh air is being sent to the intercooler to start cooling down the A2W inter-cooler system's water, then at that point the whole engine bay is pretty hot from the car not moving and no water heat exchanger will bring the water to its equilibrium which got hot from the high load were will put your water equilibrium temperature super high, as a matter of fact it just climbs and climbs and to some point it will boil pump running or not. 


if there is no way of taking the heat from the water (constant ice loading or a heat exchanger) the system is not good for much time, in the area of minutes maybe.


pump on my car will most liklely be on all the time, unless short drives without any type of loading (boosting) is going to be done like Gandalf mentioned few posts above. 


I dont get your comment of helping the oil to warm up, I mean if you are warming the car up you are not boosting therefore charge air is not getting too hot because the turbo is still cold , or at least I dont boost until engine temps are up and fully warm. 

on the race car maybe you will have to switch your routine.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

I think what Mcstiff meant was that if you are trying to warm up your car, and staying off-boost like we should until the oil is warmed up, it can help to keep the pump turned off because the warmer charge air will also contribute to the engine warming on a colder day. It takes about 10 min of off-boost driving before my AI temps begin to move up significantly (say 10 degrees F) with the pump off on a colder morning.

Yes there are moments or times that the IC is an "inter-heater" when we are off-boost, downshifting, etc, but this really doesn't matter too much because we are off-power anyway. With a good circulation system and pump this will be minimized.

I would fit the largest IC and the largest HE (I also mean cooling capacity and quality, not just size) that you can. One of them will ultimately be a weaker than the other, but this does not matter if they are as good as you can afford or fit . If they are grossly mismatched then you will be limited by the weaker one.

The IC still functions in a limited capacity with the pump off. Heat will still be absorbed in to the water in the IC, and travel through the water system by convection. If you stay off-boost, you can drive for a long time like this and the temps will climb up quite slowly... Then when you flip the pump on, you will be truly seeing how the exchange in the HE and IC plus your flow is working.


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> I see what you are saying but your charge air will need to be cool and the turbo itself is too hot, therefore the turbo (if you were actually putting high load) will need to be cooled down first until fresh air is being sent to the intercooler to start cooling down the A2W inter-cooler system's water, then at that point the whole engine bay is pretty hot from the car not moving and no water heat exchanger will bring the water to its equilibrium which got hot from the high load were will put your water equilibrium temperature super high, as a matter of fact it just climbs and climbs and to some point it will boil pump running or not.


I think I understand this run on. 

This log starts sitting still after running for 12 hours. I was only stopped for a few mins; in the turbo outlet temp; if so your IC will heat the charge air. 










And yes, I was talking about leaving the pump off until your oil is warm. 

With my EMS I could switch the pump via a GPO keyed to oil temp; may be cool yet unnecessary.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

Mcstiff,
is that MAT temp in C or F?

I see the MAT doubling in 3 secs, not


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> Mcstiff,
> is that MAT temp in C or F?
> 
> I see the MAT doubling in 3 secs, not


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

UPDATE****** 


ran the system for the first time in the garage and the little pump pushes a decent amount of water (just one) I didnt want to turn both of them on just because I thought that one will be running dry until the other pushed the water through the other one down the stream of the system I still need to run the system with both of them, but later today until I fix one leak right by the big heat exchanger. 



I need to run the system enough time to get all the bubbles out of it and then take it out today to the street and test for a bit. 

just found out a little issue with my engine cooling system that I have to figure out though ....... freaking fans dont want to turn on and the temp starts rising too much :banghead:


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

You're getting there :thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

blubayou said:


> You're getting there :thumbup:


yeah almost there!!! thanks, I coudnt get it out yet  it has been raining a bit here and there are a couple of places were I have not put sealant just in case I need to access stuff during the testing part of the build. 

Fixed the leaks and 

I have to go over some wiring to see if that is the reason why my radiator fans dont kick in and check some resistors and fuses there. 

there is a huge noise coming out of the exhaust now 3" straight pipe (no cat) just an 8" resonator and thats it


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Look what I found



VR6-GT42RS said:


> last update for this weekend..


from another thread here, it looks monstrous

flows this 



VR6-GT42RS said:


> 3800 gph/14400 lph



need to get more details though


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> from another thread here


Link?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> Link?


Ohh I meant to post before, the sickest engine build ever R36 ......AWD ......... Huge turbo ......... 1k+hp .... all in an MK2

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4108171-my-R36-bigturbo-build..


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

http://www.raimotorsport.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=13751

scroll half way down.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

elRey said:


> http://www.raimotorsport.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=13751
> 
> scroll half way down.


nice set up thanks for the link, I didnt see the specs of the actual pump, it seems to be a nice setup with a hugeeeeee heat exchanger in there.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

huichox4 said:


> most auto parts stores like autozone, oreilly, napa etc ... should have them they are like $4 to $6 cant remember so not too bad and they area just two way, there are 3 way stuff and others with LEDs too


Went and got a couple safety/covered switches the other day. Advance and Radio shack both had one. The Advance one was around $17 and the radio shack was around $6. I bought both so I could compare and see which was "better". The one at Advance was a solid bright red cover and a seemingly heavier duty switch (metal, positive on/off feel). The Radio Shack one had a transparent red cover, which was more subtle than the bright red Advance one, but the switch itself was lighted and VERY cheap (all plastic). Both were rated for 20 amps, but the Radio Shack one just felt like it would fail more quickly.

Just thought I would update with what I found in case it helps anyone looking


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

That is a RULE 3800 (model 17A) bilge pump.
They are meant for open-flow or short-hose 1.5" diameter pumping scenarios, like bilge. A lot of guys are running them on their drag setups... 

*However.*

These pumps do not perform well under pressure. Its like a speedboat (impellor) trying to be a tugboat. For example, the 3800 refers to 3800 gph @ 0 feet-of-head (0 psi) and 13.6 volts. That is equivalent to 63 gpm open-flow. At only 6.7 feet-of-head and 12 volts, the pump's output drops to 36 gpm.

Here is a quick pressure-conversion chart:

.4 feet of head	= 1.4722 psi = 0.10150819 Bar (b)
5 feet of head = 2.165 psi = 0.14927675 Bar (b)
6 feet of head = 2.598 psi = 0.1791321 Bar (b)
8.376 feet of head	= 3.62594 psi = 0.25 Bar (b)
10 feet of head = 4.33 psi = 0.2985535 Bar (b)
12.5 feet of head	= 5.4125 psi = 0.373191875 Bar (b)
15 feet of head = 6.495 psi = 0.4474855 Bar (b)
16 feet of head	= 6.928 psi = 0.4776856 Bar (b)
20 feet of head	= 8.66 psi = 0.597107 Bar (b)
25 feet of head = 10.825 psi = 0.74638375 Bar (b)
30 feet of head = 12.99 psi = 0.8956605 Bar (b)

Here is a quick graph of the RULE 3800 output, made by me lol. I drew a straight line between their published outputs, and then continued the line. I guarantee that in reality this line will have a convex curve.
periods =indicated output
colons =projected output

_80 (gpm)
_
_...
_.......
_..........
_.............
_:::::::::::::
_:::::::::::::::
_:::::::::::::::::
0 
....l..l..l..l..l..l..l..l..l..l..l
...0.(psi)...................10 (psi)

So. What does this mean? Well, if your entire system is 1.5" in diameter or larger, and your entire system has a combined pressure drop of less than 4 psi, then this pump will work, but it will not be in its element. If your system is 3/4" lines and the pressure drop is 6 or more psi, it is not meant to be. It is a good example of how advertising big numbers (3800 GPH) entices people to buy something not meant for their application (in a lot of cases). 

A good rule of thumb: Don't run lines smaller than your pump inlet/outlet. In the picture posted above, there is a good diameter pipe coming from the tank to his pump inlet. I hope it continues at that diameter for the whole system.

http://store.waterpumpsupply.com/runo12vodcbi7.html


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

good info :thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

great info indeed :thumbup::thumbup: 

he has same diameter pipes ........... he is a master fabricator any pump with a 1.5 in diameter in and out ports like the one you have Gandalf should be the best in that system



VR6-GT42RS said:


> today i started with the air to water lines...need some hose and ss to do the rest..





VR6-GT42RS said:


> got my 38mm water hose today and i completed the ss waterlines in the rear..so my air to water system will be completed this weekend if jeg get my 2 custum fittings.





VR6-GT42RS said:


> Custom fittings ready..so i completed the last lines on the a/w setup today..


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hahaha I love it! It looks very nicely done. Man, I am saving up for a TIG welder, I can't wait to go nuts with it... that's a lot of welds, and they look really good. 
Well, that should make the pump happier for sure... can't see it running up against more than 4 psi in the water-side... should flow nicely. It will work the pump... I cannot recall whether the Rule bilge pumps are rated for continuous duty, but my gut says no. That is something to consider in the choice as well, whether the pump will run all the time... a circulation pump will last longer in that case. 



huichox4 said:


> great info indeed :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> he has same diameter pipes ........... he is a master fabricator any pump with a 1.5 in diameter in and out ports like the one you have Gandalf should be the best in that system


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Gandalf_MK1.5 said:


> Hahaha I love it! It looks very nicely done. Man, I am saving up for a TIG welder, I can't wait to go nuts with it... that's a lot of welds, and they look really good.
> Well, that should make the pump happier for sure... can't see it running up against more than 4 psi in the water-side... should flow nicely. It will work the pump... I cannot recall whether the Rule bilge pumps are rated for continuous duty, but my gut says no. That is something to consider in the choice as well, whether the pump will run all the time... a circulation pump will last longer in that case.


well the car is a drag car mostly


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

It will be just fine for a drag car, or any non-continuous use, like a system with a manual switch, just so it gets a break and can cool. :thumbup:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

started the car and took it out for a spin and it warmed up fine and due to some weird misfiring I coudnt (didnt want to) get in too boost. One thing I noticed though it was that after my 15 to 20 minute drive the IC was cold to the touch so it is flowing water ok I guess. no real test until I can get in too boost though. 

on another note, the exhaust is too loud. its 3" straight pipe with an 8" resonator that doesnt do much, I might throw in a 22" cherry bomb or something in there to muffle it down, dont have much space for a muffler so a hi flow cat might be the last resource to quiet it down.


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

your setup is real nice, a AWD turbo vr6 r32 is going to haul much ass.
I have been running a liquid intercooler setup for 10 years, a good friend of mine
was a Rep for Volvo and built a few 302 v8 turbo volvo 240's, he did extensive
research on liquid intercooling setups. 
he gave me the best advice, he discovered it doesn't matter how much water the I/C
system holds, the best results came from the amount the system moved.
I have used a large frontal area heat exchanger with 6 pass 1" line. this 
along with a Groco live well pump moving 17.5gpm @ 8amps has worked
great for many years of daily driving and weekend drag racing big boost.

This cooling core is a Isuzu diesel truck transmition cooler.








This photo is from the first time i installed it, the fill lines are now on the top not the bottom
so no air can get trapped. 








The I/C is rated to 750hp i tapped a bleeder fitting on top at the highest point to bleed off any air
the feed hose is were i fill the water. 
there is no resivor, the whole system holds 2gallons and the entire content is moved through the system 8 times a minute continously. the pump is wired to the key.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

wow love the idea of the bleeder, the first time I got my system running I had to shake my Ic to try to get all the air out of it and if it requires for me to do that again I will need to undo a bunch of stuff so I might get my hose ports on a better position and a bleeder just in case. 

I opted for the reservoir just to be able to pour ice in there between races, Autox mostly and Drag maybe once or twice, I thought it might come in handy later, if not I will delete it and run without it. 

I am going to test my Radiator location too back there underneath the car, if it doesnot end up working very well I will move it forward somewere in there on the sides.


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## Gandalf_MK1.5 (Aug 17, 2010)

huichox4 said:


> wow love the idea of the bleeder, the first time I got my system running I had to shake my Ic to try to get all the air out of it and if it requires for me to do that again I will need to undo a bunch of stuff so I might get my hose ports on a better position and a bleeder just in case.
> 
> I opted for the reservoir just to be able to pour ice in there between races, Autox mostly and Drag maybe once or twice, I thought it might come in handy later, if not I will delete it and run without it.
> 
> I am going to test my Radiator location too back there underneath the car, if it doesnot end up working very well I will move it forward somewere in there on the sides.


 A bleeder helps, especially if your fill point is not the highest point. If you are filling it from the highest point, it shouldn't take the pump more than 10 - 15 min to punch out all the air...


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

hey guys Sorry I have not updated anything here, I have been trying to figure out other issues with the car and no luck :banghead: 

once I figure out my boost issues I will post back again. The system is flowing a good amount of water but mu turbo is not boosting so no test yet. drove around a bit just like that and the IC was cold to the touch when I got back home, standing still through a very busy drive through (I forgot to turn the fans on) the intercooler definitelly warmed up a bit, still could touch it but not cold as if I was moving


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

well I figured out what was causing my boost issues, bad DBW throttle body has some sensors messed up inside which wont let it open more than like a 1/4 in so I have one coming my way right now to fix this and do a propper test. 

I have driven the car without boosting a few times and the intercooler seems to be doing its job of staying cool. I drive for a while and I touch it and it is not hot, feels kind of like at room temperature so not freezer cold or anything like that. I have not punched the holes in my rear bumper either so there is not to much flow of air through it, I am researching the best way to do it so I dont need to respray my bumper. high speed drilling is my guess but my drills are just not that fast for me to feel comfortable. 

Also I think I need to punch a tiny hole on top of my reservoir cap just to keep it from pressurizing or anything. I need a hood scoop really badly because heat in there is just ridiculous. 

one thing I noticed was that my reservoir showed discoloration weirdly and a bad smell inside. I am blaming the hoses and crap on them like residue from manufacturing.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

UPDATE*******

I have been running with the A2W kit for a few weeks now and have not had issues with it getting warm or anything. every time after I drive I can go and touch the IC and its not hot at all. 

its not really cold either but considering the underhood temps were I cannot touch anything else it is impressive.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

:thumbup:


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

I like how recent this is kept. I had a few dumb questions probably. I've read through these pages though and maybe i missed it but I'll ask them after I set a few thing straight with what I did and want to do: 

*First* 




 I just APR Chipped my 2001 AWD (engine code) 1.8t GTI  

 



 It has a 3" downpipe on it to a straight pipe with a 2.5" exhaust 

 



 Runs @ about 18-20 psi normal (car is in the shop for a month due to people rear ending me  so cant remember) 

 



 Seen it spike at 24psi 

 



 I live in CT (nice cold winters, not like MN though  ) 

 



I still use the oem side mount --needs to be fixed with all that boost 

 

*Now the questions I have are:* 




What are normal oem turbo exhaust temps (what about at 20psi (give or take))? Wanted to see the gains compared to FMIC and meth kit, or just meth kit or this and meth kit. 

 



Would it be better for me to get a FMIC or this because I live in CT (gets cold in the winter)? Not that I would be racing in the snow, just like taking off at stoplights  Probably will be driving around my 89 bronco until my gti is 4motion hah. 

 



*Dumb question* Would the water freeze if so what % of coolant would I need? 

 



*Another* I really like having a full-size spare tire, would I still be able to access it (saw one guys ice cooler sitting on it, but could you still get to your tire)? 

 



If I love to use my boost should I go with this or FMIC (I would keep heating up the water) 

 



Price-wise this seemed cheaper at first but now seems about the same if not more? 

 


If i dont run ice is it pointless? 

 


ALSO! I like how I dont have to cut out my wheel well for a rad. and the ones in the front look better and less work, where would I find a walkthrough of this. 

 


ALSO, if I do get a HUGE Ice cooler....CAN I USE IT AS A BEER COOLER ALSO?! If i have a drain to open for when its not in use? No stealing my idea! 

 
I'm sure I'm forgetting to ask key points right now but once I get a few responses I'll remember. 

Thank you for the help in advance 

V/r 
Hedgehodge


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## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

figured I would bump this, since there is alot of great waic tech going on in here.


I am building a laminova cored intercooler setup for my drag car build. Using 4 cores, ice box and heat exchanger (for street use). The tech in these cores is awesome and they are VERY efficient. The surface area on each core is crazy and the pressure drop is VERY low. Some people even use these cores inside the intake manifold instead of an intercooler core pre TB.

We are going to start building these in a month or two and see how they go. One is going on my 6262, solidlifter ported AEB monster build, and the other one I am making is going on a 76MM LS swapped 87 S-10 drag truck shooting for 800hp+. If they work good I might be selling some more, so if your interested, keep your eyes peeled.
More info:
http://advancedhbintercoolers.com/generic/generic.html

http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

kkkustom said:


> figured I would bump this, since there is alot of great waic tech going on in here.
> 
> 
> I am building a laminova cored intercooler setup for my drag car build. Using 4 cores, ice box and heat exchanger (for street use). The tech in these cores is awesome and they are VERY efficient. The surface area on each core is crazy and the pressure drop is VERY low. Some people even use these cores inside the intake manifold instead of an intercooler core pre TB.
> ...


this is very interesting info right here, I will look in to this more closely. 

If you dont mind me asking how expensive this things are?


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

I'm not sure what retail is on them, though I have seen them on ebay in lots from time to time. I was examining this option very closely for my setup, as my core is built into my intake manifold. In the end I didn't go this route as I didn't find core in the right length for my need (manifold is only 8" wide) and don't currently have machine shop access to make the caps et al.

Still something I'm very interested in, however, as the efficiency is supposed to be awesome. :thumbup:


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

Here you go - $50 each

Wish they weren't 15"+ long for my application!


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

Note that this is only the cores, you need seals, end caps, etc, not to mention a manifold built to put them in. :beer:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

blubayou said:


> Note that this is only the cores, you need seals, end caps, etc, not to mention a manifold built to put them in. :beer:


could they be just welded in to end caps to make an intercooler with at least 4 or 5 of those for a 600hp rating core maybe?


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

huichox4 said:


> could they be just welded in to end caps to make an intercooler with at least 4 or 5 of those for a 600hp rating core maybe?


http://www.opcon.se/www/files/laminova/pdf/core_general_info_intercooler.pdf

They need to be housed by something.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Mcstiff said:


> http://www.opcon.se/www/files/laminova/pdf/core_general_info_intercooler.pdf
> 
> They need to be housed by something.


correct, I was thinking like welding the sided of it just leaving the water port open for the water to flow, dont want to push 30 psi and blow one o-ring that will make a huge mess of water to flow to my engine or something. 

Thanks for the pdf. 

if I learn how to weld aluminum and get a welder I will attempt this ...


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

Anyone have any advice for me please in response to ^^^ post, thanks


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Hedgehodge said:


> Anyone have any advice for me please in response to ^^^ post, thanks


you are still on stock turbo I figured out from the post, yo might not need an air to water intercooler as big as some shown in here because you are in the 200+ hp range. 

you might be better of with a small size air to air intercooler like all the kits out there. but if you really want an air to water a small one should do fine. 

the complicated part is that you will need to piece your kit out and might be a bit complicated if you are not too comfortable working and cutting and drilling in your car frame and bumper


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

The system I have been developing with a friend of mine utilizes the Laminova IC cores integrated into the intake manifold. I have yet to get the IC flowing, but I'm not far away. This system will really utilize the efficiency of the Laminova cores b/c of the 200*F intake temps that the twin screw is blasting right into the head. It is currently drivable as-is, but I should be able to really squeeze some power out of it once we finish the AWIC. Here is the thread with more info: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5065961-SC-20v




























Here's the massive HE I just picked up from frozen-boost. I plan to increase the port sizes to 1"


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

I have that same HE from frozen boost ...that thing is massive. 

man that setup looks very nice, great manufacturing skillzzz you guys have at your disposal. 

keep us updated


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

beautiful work, arupp. I wish I had access to a machine shop still, as that is very close to what I wanted to build and you're just making me jealous! :beer:


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## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

GOOD stuff dude... you have a Pm coming atcha! 


Laminova buddies?!?!?!


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

Thanks guys. I'll def post some more pics once the AWIC is flowing.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

arupp said:


> Thanks guys. I'll def post some more pics once the AWIC is flowing.


please do!!! I want to see this thing in action.


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## JarrettJettaVR6 (Jul 10, 2005)

i'm a lurker and learner, thanks guys for all the good info....someday....someday


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

huichox4 said:


> you are still on stock turbo I figured out from the post, yo might not need an air to water intercooler as big as some shown in here because you are in the 200+ hp range.
> 
> you might be better of with a small size air to air intercooler like all the kits out there. but if you really want an air to water a small one should do fine.
> 
> the complicated part is that you will need to piece your kit out and might be a bit complicated if you are not too comfortable working and cutting and drilling in your car frame and bumper


Yeah still stock turbo, expect it to go sooner or later now that im pushing 24psi spikes on just a ko3 not even ko3(s). Figured an intercooler would be a good idea but i couldnt justify spending 800+ on an air to air when these are better and run about the same?

How about those cheapo universal air to air kits, would it be cheaper than doing this air to water setup? 

I noticed some didnt drill holes and had all the equipment in the front?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Hedgehodge said:


> Yeah still stock turbo, expect it to go sooner or later now that im pushing 24psi spikes on just a ko3 not even ko3(s). Figured an intercooler would be a good idea but i couldnt justify spending 800+ on an air to air when these are better and run about the same?
> 
> How about those cheapo universal air to air kits, would it be cheaper than doing this air to water setup?
> 
> I noticed some didnt drill holes and had all the equipment in the front?


my equipment in the back is unique/custom/experimental. no need to do something like this for someone that just needs to upgrade. 

you can get a side mount upgrade, an ebay front mount for $90 + other $90 for piping and be good.


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

huichox4 said:


> my equipment in the back is unique/custom/experimental. no need to do something like this for someone that just needs to upgrade.
> 
> you can get a side mount upgrade, an ebay front mount for $90 + other $90 for piping and be good.


side mount upgrades just get rid of the pancake pipe essential?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Hedgehodge said:


> side mount upgrades just get rid of the pancake pipe essential?


not only the pancake pipe but the whole IC. search the forum please this has been covered for more than 10 yrs now. sorry to say this but I would like to keep this thread in the A2W topic. 

good luck


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

huichox4 said:


> not only the pancake pipe but the whole IC. search the forum please this has been covered for more than 10 yrs now. sorry to say this but I would like to keep this thread in the A2W topic.
> 
> good luck


So exactly what kind of hp would you need to see a benefit from a2w that you dont see from a2a?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Hedgehodge said:


> So exactly what kind of hp would you need to see a benefit from a2w that you dont see from a2a?


its all in how much $$ you can and want to spend. I went A2w to keep the fromt of my car clear of obstructions and added heat it may keep in the engine bay. also mk4's are nose heavy so this might help a bit in that department too.


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

i would love to see a chart like this for A2W 










A simple one like that^ NOT a confusing one like this (I'm no expert on this)....


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

a2a can lower your air temps efficiently using ambient temperature to dissipate the heat. you can spray o2, n2o or water to lower it even more. 

a2w will pull the heat more efficiently with water as the medium, once the water reaches it steady state temperature balanced with its efficiency makes a nice package when sized correctly. 

if you add an ice box you can get really cold by adding the ICE obviously, and give you the cooling advantage since the staging point in different types of races like 1/4 mile and Autocross while an a2a works until the car reaches a good speed. 

There is some debate that the a2w in a road course is not as efficient as an a2a but I have researched enough to believe that a well thought a2w will perform equally good as an a2a as some people has done before and more car manufacturers are implementing this cooling technique more nowadays. 

there might be that type of data somewhere but not too many companies make this kits car specific, therefore, making it hard to collect data. there are to many things that make the install and maintaining a bit more complex than an a2a.


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## Hedgehodge (Nov 7, 2008)

sounds like you should be the guy that should start researching and testing and selling and making money, but now you need to give me 10%


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

its a good thing i already have spare stuff around, such as a new AWIC.... as today i found out i need it.

its winter, folks.... my car is drained and i put it in the trailer as i needed garage room. but my AWIC sits at a slight angle...... well, it got reallllll cold here a couple weeks ago. and we know what happens then. it didnt even dawn on my about this when i put it away, either.

so the new AWIC will get the bracket and the adapter for the BOV welded on, and i will drill/tap for the high point vent like usual but also add a low point drain.... it'll give me something to do.... LOL.

one of those lessons we learn....


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## xXGti2006Xx (Feb 14, 2006)

damn man sorry to hear, awesome build none the less, great work


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

wow, were you runing just straight water? no coolant mix or water wetter I bet. 


on your new core prep I will suggest moving the dump points for the water on the AWIC, the feed being left at the original point is ok but the outlet try to put it at the highest point so it is easier to get rid of bubbles in there. :thumbup::thumbup:

or fit a vent screw or something to get rid of that.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

i already had a drill/tapped in high point vent on the first one..... now i just gotta do it to both ends is all...  high side on top, low side on bottom....


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

and yeah. straight water. i dump lots of water at the track to replace with ice. easily see 150-200 lbs of ice on a good day if i ever get a 6+ full run day LOL.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

cool, I remember now, you showed this before. 

have you fully opened the IC to check if the core is broken?


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

huichox4 said:


> have you fully opened the IC to check if the core is broken?


not yet, but i already have the spare so i may as well use it..... i dunno if its broke inside, but it aint worth the $90 or so that it cost..... i will dissect it though when i get time.....


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## cifdig (Jun 4, 2005)

Wow nice to see a2w come so far in the dub seen back when I started doing mine everyone was saying it's not good you should go front mount bla bla bla. Well I stayed a2w and till this day hasn't givin me problem, I have a 2.0 aba bbm charger running 19 psi striaght into the a2w, tgen into the heat exchanger, then into tank. The pump is a shure flow pump really quiet but have been thinking to get a better one, I think my pump is a 3.5 gpm pump but Ima double check. I only use distilled water in the summer, mix with redline water wetter in the winter so that it doesn't freeze.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

was on an snow autocross event last Saturday (first time racing with this setup) 

what I noticed was that while staged (it took 30 minutes of heat soaking, the organizers got a bit of issues with the timing and other cars ahead of me getting stuck on the snow) I forgot to turn my fans on until I started the race, the inter-cooler was a bit hot, after that i kept the fans on and it was cold as ice. 

Also due to being in the snow I put a shield underneath the car so airflow was disrupted but the snow and ice wouldn't cover my water Rad and fans and possibly damage them. I kept my fans on through the whole drive back (several hours) every stop I checked and the IC was very cold. 

very pleased with the setup, put 700miles on it on Saturday and not a hiccup.


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## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

:thumbup: 

Your car sounds like a beast. Glad you had fun in the snow and made it home safe.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Your car sounds like a beast. Glad you had fun in the snow and made it home safe.


 :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

has anyone ever dissected an AWIC? since i had the pleasure of blowing both ends off in the latest freeze, i took the ends off. i was a little surprised at the internals. 

the water passageways are about 1/3 of the size of the charge air passageways. i would have thought a 1:1 ratio, not like a 3:1.... 

just weird stuff is all. it doesnt look broken internally, so i got a pair of weld in bungs, cut the ends off (it broke the top end too upon further/closer inspection) and will have it welded up. then a 100 PSI pressure test and i will go from there.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

that is a good design because no need of 1:1 like air to air to draw more heat out of the charge air compared to water properties. same reason why the A2W are so small plus the water passages area should be only as big (add up to) as the area of the inlet and outlet bungs for the water to flow ok. 

the nice thing is that the air side of the core has turbulators which introduces energy to the air flow (makes it turbulent) through the core which cools better than laminar flow. 


Thanks for the pictures, this is very nice ..... cheap IC cores have a great design


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

Im wondering about a cople of things.
Where do you guys buy you awic intercooler, and the reservoir? Is there intercoolers that I should stay away from buying?
Im looking on the Schimmel AWIC kit, pretty expensive, but the intercooler looks pretty vell made.
Huichox4 are you running one, or two pumps now?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Tor_m said:


> Im wondering about a cople of things.
> Where do you guys buy you awic intercooler, and the reservoir? Is there intercoolers that I should stay away from buying?
> Im looking on the Schimmel AWIC kit, pretty expensive, but the intercooler looks pretty vell made.
> Huichox4 are you running one, or two pumps now?


I am running two pumps, I got all my parts from http://www.siliconeintakes.com/ they are cheap and they actually have good AWIC cores, a wide variety and selection of things for a nice kit.


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

So its the same as frozenboost.
But when im looking on these intercoolers im starting to think, are they the same as Schimmel? Or his he making own type intercoolers, and another reservoir. Because its MUCH cheaper with these frozenboost intercoolers.
Your running Bosch cobra pumps, satisfied with them


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

they are working fine. I used 2 because of the routing I used two water radiators.


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes i saw that after I asked the question :banghead:
Really thinking about getting one on my Rallye, so tight for a fmic.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

it could work very well as long as you pick a good size water radiator, siliconeintakes has a good selection of slim ones


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes I really hope so, have been looking on different types in radiators. Think i got more than enough space for those.
So nobody knows about the Schimmel kit? If there is really anything better with it, just the pump, and reservoir.


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

I finally got mine all plumbed up. Dual 1/2" ID hoses from the pump to the IC, from the IC to the HE, and back to the reservoir. It flows water like mad! It is working really well keeping the temps from the Lysholm down. I took it out in stop-and-go traffic for about an hour and it never heat-soaked. It keeps IAC's between 90-100*F in stop-and-go and 80-90*F on the freeway. That comes out to 70-80% adiabatic efficiency. Here are some pics of the final setup:





































The flow back to the reservoir:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

This is great man. it looks like you did a great job on it and how in hell did you fit that 3" radiator there without needing to run without a front bumper haha


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

Thanks! Fitting that huge HE behind the stock bumper cover was the hardest part. I had to mount it at about a 20* angle, chop the lower part of the core support off and pretty much butt it right up to the stock radiator. Even then I had to trim the inside of the bumper cover for it to fit.



















Needless to say I can no longer mount up the belly pan, but its worth it.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

what pumps are you running? it looks like it fits nicely there man. also when you mention that it is keeping the AIT's down when driving on the freeway how high do they get when you punch it woth boost and through the revs? 

that will be interested to see if you can log that. I am looking for a way to compare before and after temperatures on the IC core but have not found a devise that I like to use for that on my R32.


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## arupp (Apr 18, 2006)

huichox4 said:


> what pumps are you running? it looks like it fits nicely there man. also when you mention that it is keeping the AIT's down when driving on the freeway how high do they get when you punch it woth boost and through the revs?
> 
> that will be interested to see if you can log that. I am looking for a way to compare before and after temperatures on the IC core but have not found a devise that I like to use for that on my R32.


I'm only running one pump. Its a dual outlet Mezeire shown on the first page of this thread. I only have an IAT sensor post-IC so I've got no way to log the variance. Prior to plumbing the AWIC I had intake temps of ~200-210*F which held pretty consistent after the engine had warmed up. Now with AWIC running; I've consistently dropped 100*.

With the Lysholm, heating of the intake air is a little different than other blowers and turbos. While more heat _is_ generated with more RPMs, this is well controlled by my AWIC setup and I never see and increase in IAT's at high revs. However, the lysholm will generate a ton of heat in high vacuum situations like cruising or idling because it has an internal compression ratio. When you ask it to compress air that isn't available, this creates a ton of heat even with the use of a recirculation valve (DV). If I am cruising in high vacuum, I seem to be fine as long as air is flowing through the HE. But if I am sitting at idle in traffic, my IAT's will jump 10-15* fairly quickly.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

ohh yeah thats right, I saw it in the first page. man 100* less is pretty good. 

I will try to set up something soon to see how mine reacts, although I have driven it in stop and go traffic, not for toooooo long and as soon as I get home (which is were traffic ends for me) I open the hood and the IC is cold. 

Yesterday I did a few 3rd and 4th gear pulls and the IC stayed the same after I stopped and checked, no hard data just yet though.


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

Where is everyone running there water lines from the trunk ?Under the car or in the car, are they ruber, copper stainless etc.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

raguturbo said:


> Where is everyone running there water lines from the trunk ?Under the car or in the car, are they ruber, copper stainless etc.


I am running 3/4" rubber hose through the bottom of the car but I routed them through the side-skirts to avoid any damage due to debris as much as I could.


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## jewish_ (May 20, 2007)

Huichox, what are the specs on your setup now. I stopped following the thread a while back, but am collecting parts now and should be installing the system come may ish...


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

jewish_ said:


> Huichox, what are the specs on your setup now. I stopped following the thread a while back, but am collecting parts now and should be installing the system come may ish...


the same as I stated at the beginning, I may add a different radiator instead of the stock secondary radiator that my R32 had there but other than that its the same.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Alot off good info here. Awic looks like the way to go :snowcool:


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

When i was running the Lysholm Charger i used a BOV to dump charged air until needed.
Here is a pic of the HE I have used for many years. 6 Pass 1" lines.









This is available for about $300 they are for a Duramax Diesel Allison transmition oil cooler.


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## Tor_m (Feb 13, 2010)

Nice one, what are the dimension on it?


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

#86C. Allison Mega Cooler. 24" X 13" X 1 9/16", built with large tubes for maximum cooler flow. High flow rates up to 20 gallon per minute. 3/4 inch female fittings in cooler. Includes Cooler and brackets only. Cost $198.00 

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/allison1000.htm


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