# G60 16vT......chances of seeing 300hp?



## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

here's what i'm looking at running.... 

16v Scirocco head, smoothed out, bowl work done (1.8L or 2.0L, which is best for turbo?) 
what degree cams should i run? 
ported/smoothed out intake 
PG bottom end (G60 internals, fly cut the stock pistons for 16v) 
Precision brand turbo - but i am not sure what size is best (i was thinking a 34mm/27mm, 34mm/31mm, or a 44mm/27mm) 
boost: 1.8 bar/25psi 
Mustang 3" throttle body (or is the G60 one just fine?) 
BBK adjustable fuel pressure reg. 
chipped digifant ECU specifically for this setup 
G60 injectors (using digi injector cups)(should i go with bigger ones?) 


OTHER THINGS: 
8.0 or 8.5mm plug wires 
MSD Blaster 3 coil 
intercooler 
K & N filter 
windage tray (because i'm white & workin' and can't afford a Moroso or Schrick pan :laugh: ) 
walbro fuel pump 


at the kind of boost i'm wanting to run, i don't see why it wouldn't get 300hp... i wanted to see if anyone that knows their stuff could tell me if what i've got listed here could get me there. 

another question i had is, do i have to "Mickey Mouse" the pulleys to get everything to line up alright, or is the 16v on the G60 bolt-on and go?


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## V-TEC this!!! (May 4, 2003)

Why not just go with a aba block??? 

I would go with a bigger turbo for sure a precision 58 if not bigger. And you will need bigger injector 100%. The g60 ones are good to about 200hp and thats not recommended because they are running at 100% duty cycle. 

This thread should be in the forced induction forum. 

Cheers, Mike


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Here's the problem, a stock PG bottom end with a 16V head is going to have under 6 to 1 static compression. I doubt it will start let alone run ( no boost at idle). An ABA would be a much better choice as it will wind up around 8 to 1 static compression with a 16V head.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

V-TEC this!!! said:


> Why not just go with a aba block???
> 
> I would go with a bigger turbo for sure a precision 58 if not bigger. And you will need bigger injector 100%. The g60 ones are good to about 200hp and thats not recommended because they are running at 100% duty cycle.
> 
> ...


 i was trying to avoid having to buy all new pistons. the ABA pistons aren't forged and you need forged for turbo. the rods are forged, but the pistons aren't. custom dished/fly cut pistons get pricey. 

as for the turbo, i talked to a guy from Precision Turbo and he said all i would need for a 1.8L or 2.0L is their smallest turbo...but there are a few options with that. you don't want anything too big or else you won't start spooling until like 4,000-5,000RPM's. but yeah, anyway, he said it would be plenty for the kind of horsepower i want to make. 

and yeah i realize that now, but the mods can move it if they want, just don't lock it, i need this information


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> Here's the problem, a stock PG bottom end with a 16V head is going to have under 6 to 1 static compression. I doubt it will start let alone run ( no boost at idle). An ABA would be a much better choice as it will wind up around 8 to 1 static compression with a 16V head.


 what about using an ABA or MK4 8v head? would that work?


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## Scurvy Bandit (Sep 12, 2003)

ZachRabbit said:


> i was trying to avoid having to buy all new pistons. the *ABA pistons aren't forged and you need forged for turbo*. the rods are forged, but the pistons aren't.


:facepalm:

You dont HAVE to have forged pistons. Search the "16VT" in the 16v engine forum.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ZachRabbit said:


> what about using an ABA or MK4 8v head? would that work?


 Yup


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Scurvy Bandit said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> You dont HAVE to have forged pistons. Search the "16VT" in the 16v engine forum.


No you don't but if you plan on a fair amount of boost (over 15psi) it is a good idea.


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## V-TEC this!!! (May 4, 2003)

If you are stuck on your 300whp goal then you do not need forged pistons. And yes the turbo you mentioned will get you there without any problems. To reach 300 with a 16v turbo get a used ABA block (refreshed with new seals), 16v head (rebuilt) slap the two together along with some decent injectors, turbo and what not and you have yourself a very nice ride. You dont even need the porting and polishing. (Turbodub made 6xx whp on a stock head) 

There is a thread in the forced induction forum or the 16v one with 10 pages of 16v turbo set ups. Look in there for ideas about set ups and power levels. 

Good luck, 
Mike


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> No you don't but if you plan on a fair amount of boost (over 15psi) it is a good idea.


exactly. and i plan on running about 20-25psi.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

V-TEC this!!! said:


> If you are stuck on your 300whp goal then you do not need forged pistons. And yes the turbo you mentioned will get you there without any problems. To reach 300 with a 16v turbo get a used ABA block (refreshed with new seals), 16v head (rebuilt) slap the two together along with some decent injectors, turbo and what not and you have yourself a very nice ride. You dont even need the porting and polishing. (Turbodub made 6xx whp on a stock head)
> 
> There is a thread in the forced induction forum or the 16v one with 10 pages of 16v turbo set ups. Look in there for ideas about set ups and power levels.
> 
> ...



i think i can get an ABA motor here locally, the 16v i may have to end up getting off here. 

as for the injectors, i know that the G60 ones will probably max out right? i was thinking of going with 30 pounders. Bosch Red Tops. 




Prof315 said:


> Yup


i'll keep that in consideration.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ZachRabbit said:


> i think i can get an ABA motor here locally, the 16v i may have to end up getting off here.
> 
> as for the injectors, i know that the G60 ones will probably max out right? i was thinking of going with 30 pounders. Bosch Red Tops.
> i'll keep that in consideration.


You'll need at least 42 lb injectors to support 300whp


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

Prof315 said:


> You'll need at least 42 lb injectors to support 300whp


makes sense. i won't need to run crazy high fuel pressure if i have injectors that are meant to go a little further than what my needs are.

i'm not really looking for 300whp, more like 200-250. you lose 15%-20% through power transfer to the wheels, so it will probably be around 250 if i have 300-310hp total.


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## 1.8TRabbit (Nov 15, 2004)

ZachRabbit said:


> i was trying to avoid having to buy all new pistons. the ABA pistons aren't forged and you need forged for turbo.


You dont NEED forged anything to run a turbo. Pistons, Rods or crank for that matter. Just depends on what you are going after. 300hp has been done with stock cast rods and stock pistons before plenty of times and some of them are even daily driven. :beer:


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

1.8TRabbit said:


> You dont NEED forged anything to run a turbo. Pistons, Rods or crank for that matter. Just depends on what you are going after. 300hp has been done with stock cast rods and stock pistons before plenty of times and some of them are even daily driven. :beer:


it's the safe way to go, let's put it that way. lol.
i would feel safer spending the $1000-2000 rebuilding an engine with brand new forged pistons than stock ones that have 150,xxx+ miles on them.


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## 1.8TRabbit (Nov 15, 2004)

ZachRabbit said:


> it's the safe way to go, let's put it that way. lol.
> i would feel safer spending the $1000-2000 rebuilding an engine with brand new forged pistons than stock ones that have 150,xxx+ miles on them.


forged doesnt prevent anything. You can have a forged crank, rods and pistons and have a ****ty tune out the ass and you could still throw a rod. Maybe not as easy. But focus on a good tune too. :beer::beer::beer:


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

1.8TRabbit said:


> forged doesnt prevent anything. You can have a forged crank, rods and pistons and have a ****ty tune out the ass and you could still throw a rod. Maybe not as easy. But focus on a good tune too. :beer::beer::beer:


I could see a bad tune melting a piston, but how can a bad tune throw a rod? :beer:


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

1.8TRabbit said:


> But focus on a good tune too. :beer::beer::beer:


well yeah, definitely.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

ZachRabbit said:


> here's what i'm looking at running....
> 
> 16v Scirocco head, smoothed out, bowl work done (1.8L or 2.0L, which is best for turbo?)
> what degree cams should i run?
> ...


G60 on digi1 and 300 whp wont happen reliably.

digi 1 maxes out at 18psi so SEMS is a must for the goals stated.

The pg on a 16v is not a good match use a aba 2.0 if you want the 16v and 300 whp.

cams should stay small for boost on a 16v 268 or exhaust cam mod.

you will need 42# injectors and a custom tune it will always run rich at idle.

ADJ FPR will not be much help unless you have SEMS and boost control you also need a FP gauge to use it.

mustang 3in TB is overkill if you do SEMS use a vr6 obd1 or any obd1 TB.

8.o wires are big and depending on the intake manifold the 8.5's might not fit knology hot wires are great option but expensive.

Blaster coil is also not needed but you could use it.

Inter cooler is a MUST do some research on this.

K&N filters are great but ITG's are better.

Windage tray is great :beer:

In line fuel pump is needed when going over the 250 WHP mark.

Yes there is some "Mickey Mouse" on the pulleys charger bracketry and relocation of the ALT.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

Svedka said:


> G60 on digi1 and 300 whp wont happen reliably.
> 
> digi 1 maxes out at 18psi so SEMS is a must for the goals stated.
> The pg on a 16v is not a good match use a aba 2.0 if you want the 16v and 300 whp.
> ...


i'll probably end up doing the 16v/ABA then. 

as for cams, i'm going to do some research, and i've heard about the exhaust swap thing.

yeah i planned on a custom tune chip for it, i know a few people that could help me out with that.

as for the fp guage, i don't necessarily have to have one in-car but it's a nice feature. i can rig something up to check it with until i feel like rigging something up. 

okay that cleared up the TB thing then. i wondered why people were using it. but i figured it wasn't really needed.

i'll probably do either nology or Accel wires and i figure while i'm upgrading things why not add the hotter coil.

i've done some research on intercoolers and really, it's not needed because if you're getting 90* air off the road.... it's still not going to cool it much, it only cools the air down to the ambient air temp, and if that's 80* it's not much cooler... doesn't do much good unless you have a liquid-to-air intercooler.

i'll have to research the ITG's. 

yeah i figure if i can't find a performance pan for a good price that's the next best thing, and it works well.

yeah anything with boost usually needs a high flow pump so i'll have to rig that up. it'll be easier to work on anyway.

that's what i figured...yippy skippy. haha


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

Why even bother with the G60 or ABA short block? keep it simple.

1.8 or 2.0l 16v 
Head spacer 8.5:1 or 9:1 depending on your tuner and psi goal
Custom chip or someone with a Ostrich and a brain
No need for forged piston
T3/4 trimmed to your desired hp and tq curve 
Stock cams work great
16v TB will work fine if your using the stock intake
vw oem coils are great
Filter is a filter and the gains from one to another are minimal

Schrick pans blow, ask me how I know and windage trays don't help with oil starvation, traps and baffles do.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> Why even bother with the G60 or ABA short block? keep it simple.
> 
> 1.8 or 2.0l 16v
> Head spacer 8.5:1 or 9:1 depending on your tuner and psi goal
> ...


head spacers are a super bad idea. especially boosting what i'm wanting to boost.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

ZachRabbit said:


> head spacers are a super bad idea. especially boosting what i'm wanting to boost.


lol ok well you better start calling all the major companies who provide the VW community with spacers, you also better tell that to the 16v people that are making 400hp @ 25psi with spacers... also tell that to the VR6 guys who are making 500+ @ 20+psi with spacers. The last VR I built had a spacer and made 350whp at 15psi, new owner turned up the boost to 22psi and kept blowing trannys, my current 16v has a spacer and 300whp wont be a problem so yeah... I think your onto something. opcorn:



Rocco R16V said:


> I could see a bad tune melting a piston, but how can a bad tune throw a rod? :beer:


It's called pre-ignition and will melt pistons, snap rods, melt heads, blow out head gaskets etc...


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## V-TEC this!!! (May 4, 2003)

Referring to your intercooler statement you are not entirely correct: Yes if you are sucking in 90* air from the outside into the turbo (which is powered by the exhaust), then not only is the turbo running at 600* (lets just say thats the temp which its not becuase it will be more) but you are also compressing the air which in turn increases the temp even more. So now you have gone from 90* air to about 200* air being stuffed into the engine......No intercooler only works if you are running a small amount of boost or you can get away with it using water meth. 

I would run an intercooler either way. It will help you make power easier.

Cheers, Mike


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> lol ok well you better start calling all the major companies who provide the VW community with spacers, you also better tell that to the 16v people that are making 400hp @ 25psi with spacers... also tell that to the VR6 guys who are making 500+ @ 20+psi with spacers. The last VR I built had a spacer and made 350whp at 15psi, new owner turned up the boost to 22psi and kept blowing trannys, my current 16v has a spacer and 300whp wont be a problem so yeah... I think your onto something. opcorn:


other people can do whatever they want to do, i really don't care, but i'm saying there's no need for a head spacer to make big power. it's in your tune, the specs of the components you're using and how much boost you're running. there's a guy in Germany making motors with a 1.9TDI block and 16v head, eurospec internals, boost 37psi and making 600hp. he sells them all the time, people daily drive them, never had an issue. no spacers involved.

name's Thomas Engelage.
http://www.engelagebros.de/




V-TEC this!!! said:


> Referring to your intercooler statement you are not entirely correct: Yes if you are sucking in 90* air from the outside into the turbo (which is powered by the exhaust), then not only is the turbo running at 600* (lets just say thats the temp which its not becuase it will be more) but you are also compressing the air which in turn increases the temp even more. So now you have gone from 90* air to about 200* air being stuffed into the engine......No intercooler only works if you are running a small amount of boost or you can get away with it using water meth.
> 
> I would run an intercooler either way. It will help you make power easier.
> 
> Cheers, Mike


if i end up going with one i'd go with one from these guys:
http://precisionturbo.net/Wc21126d5f695d.htm

there's where it explains what i was trying to say. 
those guys make a TOUGH product and know their stuff.
were you trying to say the compressing of the air _decreases_ the temp?


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## V-TEC this!!! (May 4, 2003)

precision products are great. :thumbup:

When you compress air the temperature increases. Therefore the intercooler cools it down before it gets to the engine.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

V-TEC this!!! said:


> precision products are great. :thumbup:
> 
> When you compress air the temperature increases. Therefore the intercooler cools it down before it gets to the engine.


yeah, my brother has one of their smaller turbos and their 39mm adjustable wastegate, it's some nice freaking stuff. well built.

well i suppose i need to go faster if i want it to shed more heat   :laugh:


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

ZachRabbit said:


> other people can do whatever they want to do, i really don't care, but i'm saying there's no need for a head spacer to make big power. it's in your tune, the specs of the components you're using and how much boost you're running. there's a guy in Germany making motors with a 1.9TDI block and 16v head, eurospec internals, boost 37psi and making 600hp. he sells them all the time, people daily drive them, never had an issue. no spacers involved.
> 
> name's Thomas Engelage.
> http://www.engelagebros.de/
> ...


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> You have completely missed the point. :facepalm: If you don't care what other people are doing then why don't you just buy a motor from him instead of asking the people in here what to do?


i meant i don't care if other people are running spacers, that's not what i want to do.
i don't think it's smart to trust 450-600hp, moreso 15+ psi of boost to some cheap spacer.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

ZachRabbit said:


> i meant i don't care if other people are running spacers, that's not what i want to do.
> i don't think it's smart to trust 450-600hp, moreso 15+ psi of boost to some cheap spacer.


Cheap? I wouldn't call precision cut stainless cheap and they have been proven.



ZachRabbit said:


> i'm not really looking for 300whp, more like 200-250. you lose 15%-20% through power transfer to the wheels, so it will probably be around 250 if i have 300-310hp total.


I don't know why your talking about 400-600hp when you stated your goal was only 300bhp


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## 1.8TRabbit (Nov 15, 2004)

Rocco R16V said:


> I could see a bad tune melting a piston, but how can a bad tune throw a rod? :beer:


Its called pre-detonation or pre-ignition. Results could throw rods, potentially melt pistons, even blow head gaskets, and could even spin a bearing. But not as likely. :beer::beer:


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> Cheap? I wouldn't call precision cut stainless cheap and they have been proven.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why your talking about 400-600hp when you stated your goal was only 300bhp


it doesn't matter, that's not what i want to do. anyway.....moving on...

because you were boasting other people's cars that have that range of horsepower on head spacers.....


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

ZachRabbit said:


> it doesn't matter, that's not what i want to do. anyway.....moving on...
> 
> because you were boasting other people's cars that have that range of horsepower on head spacers.....


Obvously you can do whatever you want but saying head spacers are a "very bad idea" is total ignorance. 

Boasting? All I was doing is proving that head spacers work reliably and that I had first hand experience.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

Honestly, for your power goals of 200-250whp, if you wanted to save money, you could keep it 8v. That said, I originally dreamt (and still do in the future at some point) of an aba16vt. I remember reading a few threads of people who just slapped together a forced induction setup using a junkyard ABA, with the idea of go until it blows, and then build it up properly. I remember a few instances where the member reported a year or two later saying that the stock block was still holding up just fine.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

well.... i guess i'm going to have to find someone else to put this motor together with. 
my father passed away Tuesday, February 8th 2011 en route to Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton, Ohio. he was being CareFlighted there and his heart stopped 5 minutes before he got there.

not that anyone on here knew him but let's put it this way: at least 800 people at his viewing and at least 200-300 of those (if not more) went to the funeral. one lady came all the way from Denmark.


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## krupske (Mar 10, 2010)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> my current 16v has a spacer and 300whp wont be a problem so yeah...


maybe a little off-topic but what internals did you use on your 16vt?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ZachRabbit said:


> i'll probably end up doing the 16v/ABA then.
> 
> as for cams, i'm going to do some research, and i've heard about the exhaust swap thing.
> 
> ...


1: Both Nology and Accel Wires are crap especially the nologys. I've seen actual HP LOSSES over stock wires with nologys.
2: over 6psi boost some kind of intercooler is a must if you want the motor to last a while.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

krupske said:


> maybe a little off-topic but what internals did you use on your 16vt?


All stock with ARP studs.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

sorry to hear about your dad...


About your goals: you do not know what you are going to run in the end, block head cam's etc, none is dicided yet.

But you keep talking about wanting to boost 20-25 psi.:banghead: and that you know what power you wan't.
But at this moment you don't know what boost you're going to have to run to get to your powergoal.

Let go of the fact on what boost you want to run, figure out what components you are gonna use first


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## krupske (Mar 10, 2010)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> All stock with ARP studs.


o.k.. 9a or a aba?

thanks


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

krupske said:


> o.k.. 9a or a aba?
> 
> thanks


9A with a 9:1 head spacer.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

pimS said:


> sorry to hear about your dad...
> 
> 
> About your goals: you do not know what you are going to run in the end, block head cam's etc, none is dicided yet.
> ...


thank you sir. i still miss him, especially when i'm working on my car, and i get pissed. haha. he was always the one to come up and be like "HEY. just step back for a second.... look... you can do it this way..." or "this is how you do this...."

this is an old post so i'm not sure why this popped up again... but what i plan on putting together will consist of these components:

-ABA block
-16v head
-custom short runner intake
-....still need to do some research on what cams to use. may just stick with the stock ones.
-TDI crank
-all forged internals, possibly Eagle rods w/ dished JE pistons (going to have to be shorter, to compensate for the TDI crank)
-Precision turbo
-Precision wastegate
-turbo header instead of manifold
-Bosch injectors
-aftermarket oil cooler
-Corrado trans
-may upgrade the CV shafts to higher HP type.

running 15psi of boost max. Megasquirt fuel management, or similar.
essentially what i'm going for is a 2.1T.


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## Lolasaurus_Rex (Jul 15, 2009)

I don't know why you're so set on a specific boost level. All setups are different. One will make XXhp on Xpsi, the other might take more or less to make the same power.

PSI doesn't dictate what your motor can handle before it takes a dump. If that's what you're thinking, you need to do more research.

Set a power goal, build the motor for that. Tune the motor till you reach it. That will be your boost level.


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## ZachRabbit (May 19, 2009)

Lolasaurus_Rex said:


> I don't know why you're so set on a specific boost level. All setups are different. One will make XXhp on Xpsi, the other might take more or less to make the same power.
> 
> PSI doesn't dictate what your motor can handle before it takes a dump. If that's what you're thinking, you need to do more research.
> 
> Set a power goal, build the motor for that. Tune the motor till you reach it. That will be your boost level.


i didn't say it dictated what my motor can handle? 

i have a power goal set.... i should be able to reach that pretty easily with the people i know that build high performance motors for a living. i should know a roundabout figure on what my base horsepower could be based on research i've done, and the knowledge i've gained talking to my father about it. if i don't reach that number, oh well. i'm just saying that 250-300 TOTAL hp is my goal.


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