# 02m input shaft back and forth play



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=510791975606803 

I have the same issue it's not as bad but I'd like to know what's done exactly to repair this ? I'm already installing a wavetrac diff and taking care of the riveted forks. I ordered a new Ball bearing for this end of the trans but I don't think it will take care of the problem.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

I got 0.020 inch play axially on my late 02m I can't find the specs for the late o2m. In the manual I believe the specs I'm seeing are for the early version which had tapered roller bearing. If it's out of spec what need to be done to correct this ?


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

madonion said:


> I got 0.020 inch play axially on my late 02m I can't find the specs for the late o2m. In the manual I believe the specs I'm seeing are for the early version which had tapered roller bearing. If it's out of spec what need to be done to correct this ?


 madonion 

Check your gearbox manufacturing date. According to VW, if you have a box that is 07.03 or newer, the drive shaft should have a firm/loose bearing which cannot be adjusted (via c-clips) 
If, however, you have a box that goes up to the 06.03 date then I have some specs for you.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

Well it's 03 with 7 small dots so I guess that's 07/03. I'm pretty sure 0.020 is to much play I've seen some people mentioning they though part 6 and 7 was missing in there transmission and they added them. I'm thinking adding one of those might solve my issue but I don't know if the shaft should be pushed in or out of the transmission to be within specs so that's my biggest issue.


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm in the same boat with an 02m although I'm pretty sure I have a 04 case. 

What is part 6 & 7 you mention? 

I believe the input shaft bearing should be pushed to the outside of the case so that the bearing lip is directly against the inside of the case. I have the gearbox apart on my bench right now and have been thinking about adding a shim/thrust washer to take up the 'slack'. As I see it now, I would plan on adding a shim to inside of the bell housing (red circle below). Also, there have been some people who reported the input shaft bearing race spinning within the housing and had to have the case machined out and have a sleeve pressed in so that the bearing has an interference fit again. Since my bearing fits snugly (..not tight) in the case I was thinking about modifying the case and input shaft bearing race to accept a set screw to prevent the input shaft bearing race from ever spinning and potentially doing damage to the case. 

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i...0000A8C916B5FD1_zpsdc0526f4-1_zps1801e73b.jpg


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

it looks like I forgot to send the diagram with my previous post http://zelek.com/diagram02M-11.htm#12th I got the link from http://forums.subdriven.com/showthr...-speed-tranny-rebuild.-PICS-INSIDE&p=79373290 

I think putting a spacer behind the circlip of the 72mm ball bearing would have the same effect. I'm still wondering if I should out the spacer on the inside part or the outside part of the trans. the spacer sold by vw are 0.65mm I have 0.5mm play. 

I changed the ball bearing at the end of the shaft but I still have the same play. Some mention they have to heat the case in order to fit the case over the bearing that wasn't the case for me. It's not that tight but it's not loose at all.


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

Thank you :beer:


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

let me know what you think about putting a spacer on the ball bearing side.


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

I like the idea because it will remove the play - but one thing that comes to mind with putting the spacer on the BB side is that the gears seem to be offset slightly (minimal, but noticeable) when doing that. The gear faces won't have full contact (input vs output shafts) and some of the clearances are close with other gears on the output stacks. I believe putting a shim/thrust washer on the bell housing side of the input shaft will ensure that the gear faces are making 100% contact with one another, this also buys some clearance on the output shafts and the lip on the BB will make full contact with the case. 

I will try to get some photos this evening showing the different scenarios. :beer:


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

Here are the photo's I was talking about earlier. Each photo in the left frame is 'shimmed at the bell housing input shaft side' and each photo in the right frame is 'non-shimmed at the bell housing input shaft side' and that's most likely how it would look if you shimmed the BB with #6 & #7. 

The shimmed version (I had a couple junk washers laying around that worked okay for demonstration purposes) seems to work very well and there is no input shaft play when I close the case up. I'll have to get a more precise reading with a dial indicator before actually moving forward with this. 

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i...13B7D9CE-301-00000010E6CAEE6E_zps6d886248.jpg 

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i...DB339347-301-00000010EE063F9F_zps001be182.jpg 

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i...C01FECD0-301-00000010F2B9D91C_zpsea335397.jpg 

Thoughts?


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

thoses washer are huge. Washer number 6 would push the gears toward each other and number 7 would pull the gears apart. The problem is to find which way the shaft as drifted from it's original position. The washers sold by VW have 0.65 mm thickness and my play is 0,50mm so I would need to get one of those washer machined if that's even possible. How much play do you have ? I don't understand why there isn't specs for this. 

Do you see any signs of wear on the inside or outside of the case where the ball bearing meet the case ?


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

Hmm.. Ill have to take a better look at the case tomorrow. 

Washers in the photo above seem to be ~2.5mm/~2.75mm thick


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

I think I found the way to fix mine. I believe most of the play I have comes from the cir clip machining it self slowly into the case as the outside of the bearing turns. The way I think I'm going to fix it is to get the spacer 7 from VW I'll have to bring the case to a machine shop and get them to remove some aluminum from the case and replace the lost material with the metal washer which as a diameter of 78mm and a height of 0,65mm. The cir clip as machined the surface of 75mm the machinist will have to machine the surface 0,65mm deep and a diameter of 78mm. I'd also like to implement a key in that bearing that would prevent it from rotating I'm trying to find the best way to do this. 

I'm thinking I could put a hole in the trans casing thread it and a bolt would secure the bearing by putting some pressure on it.


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

madonion said:


> I think I found the way to fix mine. I believe most of the play I have comes from the cir clip machining it self slowly into the case as the outside of the bearing turns. The way I think I'm going to fix it is to get the spacer 7 from VW I'll have to bring the case to a machine shop and get them to remove some aluminum from the case and replace the lost material with the metal washer which as a diameter of 78mm and a height of 0,65mm. The cir clip as machined the surface of 75mm the machinist will have to machine the surface 0,65mm deep and a diameter of 78mm. I'd also like to implement a key in that bearing that would prevent it from rotating I'm trying to find the best way to do this.
> 
> *I'm thinking I could put a hole in the trans casing thread it and a bolt would secure the bearing by putting some pressure on it.*


 What about using a bearing compound to secure the bearing? I believe Loctite 609 should be sufficient to use in this environment.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

It could be a good idea I've never worked with 609. Is there a chance it will wash away in the oil ?


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

madonion said:


> It could be a good idea I've never worked with 609. Is there a chance it will wash away in the oil ?


 Not at all. It's resistant to oils, gasoline, acetone, brake fluid, and ethanol. 

I have used 609 in the past to re-assemble leaking mtb magnesium fork lowers due to poor interference fit. If I cleaned and prepped the area properly and let the assembly cure before using it, I haven't had any forks come back for the same problem. 

Here's the TDS if you want to see it: https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/3E906D6B842166B0882571870000D855/$File/609-EN.pdf


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

After some tinkering in the garage, my assumptions with shimming the input shaft inside of the bell-housing won't matter because I forgot about the c-clip holding the BB on the case end - so please disregard my previous statements.  

I'm pretty certain the method of using the shims at the BB end is the best way to resolve the back and forth play on the input shaft.:thumbup: 

I took some better measurements this morning: 
-BB lip to the c-clip is 15.30mm. 
 
-BB seat measured 14.20mm (I had to use a screw and bolt to get this measurement since the calipers were too big) 
 

...I have about 1.1mm of play and looks like I have wear on both sides of the case from the BB lip and the c-clip. 
 

 


#6 [WHT002050] - Inside of case, sandwiched between BB lip and case (72x84,85x0,65) 
#7 [WHT001976] - Outside of case, sandwiched between case and c-clip (72x78,6x0,65) 

I might order one #6 and two #7 to play around with different adjustments. Since each shim is .65mm I will need to figure out how to shave off .2mm either from the case or one of the shims. 

Also, I played around with a broken 02M case today I had laying around. Tested drilling/tapping a hole for a 6mmx1.00 set screw and it went pretty well. I will have to look into putting a flat spot on an old bearing and see how well it holds. 

 

 

 

 

 
I didn't have a set screw laying around so I used a 6mmx1.00 bolt.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

that's exactly what I had in mind for the bolt holding the bearing. The issue you will have with the washers is that they will overcompensate if the surface is not ground flat equally. The wear spots are a smaller diameter than the washers themselves.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

Well I've opened my case again and also took some measurements. I believe the original lip holding the bearing should be 15.0 mm from the factory. Most of the wear I see is on the inside of the case. On the cir clip side I have a 0.15mm wear on the inside I'm having a hard time measuring the inside but I'm guessing it's somewhere around 0.30mm. I think I'll buy both spacers from vw bring the casing to a machine shop to get it machined to fit the washers in. I'll use 609 when fitting the bearing and spacers and I might also put a bolt like you've done on the side of the bearing. The problem would be resolved for good. 

I might use number 7 twice instead of 6 & 7 we'll see.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

Now on the hunt for a machinist that will be able to make this happen otherwise I'll have to find another solution to the problem.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

Problem solved. my local machinist was able to machine both surface. There is absolutely no more play on my bearing. I will probably close everything up tonight with a few drops of locktite 603. Locktite 609 wasn't available it had to be a special order of over 3 weeks. I believe this will help get rid of the gear noise I was noticing when decelerating. I hope this thread will help those looking for a solution to this problem.


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

madonion

Nice work! 

Remember, the strength of the bond is a function of curing time. Give it a good 24hrs to set before adding any transmission fluid.

If you don't mind me asking, but what was the total cost to get that fixed?


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

The machinist charged me 80$ and spacers were 13$ at the dealer and loctite 60310 was around 10$ from a local supplier. 

So the cost for the repair is around 100$


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## xpro (Jul 1, 2013)

Hi, just came across this thread, very very helpful. 

This is my first post, and also have the same issue with my gearbox. Its the later 02m with plastic cap. 

The problem im having apart from the play in the shaft, is that the end BB was spinning in the casing and now it sits in loose. 

I will try to get shims, but i dont think that will help. 

Any advice? 

Many thanks


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

madonion said:


> The machinist charged me 80$ and spacers were 13$ at the dealer and loctite 60310 was around 10$ from a local supplier.
> 
> So the cost for the repair is around 100$


Make sure you follow up on the repair - good or bad


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## vex004 (Jun 7, 2006)

xpro,

If the bearing doesn't sit snugly then you might need the case machined and have a sleeve pressed in. The input shaft bearing is snug on mine but can still get the outter race to spin, I plan on purchasing the oem shims for my case take take up the in-n-out play and drill/tapping a hole into the case and using a set screw to prevent the bearing from spinning.



vex004 said:


> ....
> Also, I played around with a broken 02M case today I had laying around. Tested drilling/tapping a hole for a 6mmx1.00 set screw and it went pretty well. I will have to look into putting a flat spot on an old bearing and see how well it holds.
> 
> 
> ...


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## xpro (Jul 1, 2013)

Hi, 
Just a quick update and a few photos. 
I finally put the gearbox back together after renewing the main shaft bearings and all the seals. 

As the main BB bearing was slightly loose, but still holding in place, i slightly machined the top of the case where the circlip goes as it was worn and i fitted the shims on both sides. ( My 02M gearbox was the latest type and it did not require any shims in the factory spec, but as the housing was worn due to the bearing eating into it i had to use shims on both side to reduce the shaft play. Now is perfect. 

I also used Loctite 620 bearing retainer (Apparently the strongest Loctite retainer for gaps up to 0.5mm) and i tapped two small 6mm holes on both side just as a precaution. 

Some pics below. And thanks to all posters here for some good info. :thumbup:


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## Yak Meat (Sep 28, 2011)

I do not mean to bump old dead threads, but I have been getting locked out of reverse when i first start my car these days. After I take my foot off the brake it pops into gear so I figure the car is moving ever so slightly. This is something new. I cannot say I notice any whine on decel but that doesnt mean it isnt there. 

Anyways, I ordered the shim, but it seems people are doing more than just the shim, can someone please explain this in retard speak for me? Or atleast my understanding is as follows:

There is a bear with an inner and outer race around the axle shaft. The outer race is spinning when it shouldnt, so people are putting set screws into it to hold it from spinning? 

Are people also still using a shim? Do I have to measure the shim properly to get it to work? Or can I just throw the one I got in, in and hope for the best?


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

I just had the TOB and clutch explode on my O2Q. When I pulled it out I noticed the same ~1/8" of play in the input shaft. Four Season Tuning mentioned something about the factory shims when I called to ask them about it. Seemed like it coulb be done through the rear cap so I put the transmission back in with a single mass setup (gotta get this thing back on the road), but looking at those pics I'm not sure. I'd like to take care of it without removing the tranny again.

Will the black cap hold the shims against the rear input shaft bearing by itself? I can't drill holes for setscrews in the bearing bore with the bearing still sitting inside it. 

Worse comes to worse I've got a 3" bar of 6061 that I'm sure I can chuck up in the lathe to make a new cap to press in with a bearing shoulder machined into the face, but I'm not sure I have time for all that right now. (that seems like a good product for a vender now that I think of it."


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## gianco (Aug 11, 2013)

*Again bearing play*

i nave the same issue


car isi audi a3 my 2006 
the bearing has 0,5mm axial play

have the shim installed 

the gearbox have 195000 km

the clutch and flyweel are new installed but oem

sometime have issue to go from reverse to neutral

but not frequent

no other issue

the my concern is that wen i removed the cap i found that the outer race of bearing is free of turn in case bore

is it normal?


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## Iku (Mar 11, 2009)

So.. eventually ended up here after doing some searching.

I have ZERO axial play. I have no issues getting into or out of first or reverse, etc. Seems like sometimes 3rd is a notchy engagement, especially under 100% engine load (R32 turbo). I DO have a whine in 3/4/5th it seems, on decel only.

I tried to do the shim kit, but at that time found no axial play. The outer race does appear to be spinning, however. So that is bad. All the machining you guys have been doing, is that necessary if I have no axial play? I just want the outer race to not spin.


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## aircooled56 (Jul 6, 2006)

Iku said:


> So.. eventually ended up here after doing some searching.
> 
> I have ZERO axial play. I have no issues getting into or out of first or reverse, etc. Seems like sometimes 3rd is a notchy engagement, especially under 100% engine load (R32 turbo). I DO have a whine in 3/4/5th it seems, on decel only.
> 
> I tried to do the shim kit, but at that time found no axial play. The outer race does appear to be spinning, however. So that is bad. All the machining you guys have been doing, is that necessary if I have no axial play? I just want the outer race to not spin.


If you have no play you could just drill and tap a hole and use a set screw to keep the outside race from spinning. Did it on my case per recommendations on this thread. Should work just fine and it can be done without any disassembly, I did mine in the car with the above pictures as a reference.

:thumbup:


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