# ECU Tuning - TD1 flag



## vayron333 (Sep 16, 2015)

I was wondering how many of you with a tuned ECU denied warranty work because of the TD1 flag. My first service is coming up and it seems that no matter what you do they will flag you and could denied to repair you car if something goes wrong with the drivetrain during the warranty period.


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## GP813 (Jun 16, 2015)

simply put, if you have any reservations tuning because of warranty work, dont do it. 

There's a lot of grey area between how dealers approach this. Some of us are lucky enough to have dealers that look the other way...others arent so lucky. 

You hear the phrase "pay to play" around here a lot. It always rings true. 

If you can't accept even the smallest risk of TD1, aftermarket tuning is not for you.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

GP813 said:


> simply put, if you have any reservations tuning because of warranty work, dont do it.
> 
> There's a lot of grey area between how dealers approach this. Some of us are lucky enough to have dealers that look the other way...others arent so lucky.
> 
> ...


What he^ said.



vayron333 said:


> I was wondering how many of you with a tuned ECU denied warranty work because of the TD1 flag. My first service is coming up and it seems that no matter what you do they will flag you and could denied to repair you car if something goes wrong with the drivetrain during the warranty period.


So, in addition to the automatic TD1 flag from ECU tunes, you can get TD1 flagged by the technician/service writer for any functional after-market modification, including lowering springs, after-market suspension, after-market exhaust, etc. So, as he said above.. if you're concerned about it, don't mod it.


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## tateltot (Dec 4, 2015)

With all of that said, the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act does provide some protection to us and you can appeal truly unreasonable voiding of warranties.

The dealer cannot validly claim a voided engine warranty for suspension work. They might try, but you do have the right as a consumer to challenge these acts. Document and get names whenever work is being done.

Don't expect to dishonestly manipulate this. You will likely fail terribly.


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## robopp (Aug 5, 2012)

tateltot said:


> With all of that said, the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act does provide some protection to us and you can appeal truly unreasonable voiding of warranties.
> 
> The dealer cannot validly claim a voided engine warranty for suspension work. They might try, but you do have the right as a consumer to challenge these acts.


Which would be in a court of law where you'll end up paying more in lawyer fees than the repair out of pocket. Point is - you have to pay to play.


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## tateltot (Dec 4, 2015)

robopp said:


> Which would be in a court of law where you'll end up paying more in lawyer fees than the repair out of pocket. Point is - you have to pay to play.


Not likely. The county or even the BBB could get involved before that. I'm not disputing that it's a risk, but it's also important not to generalize, I feel.

Understand your rights then make decisions.


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## will13k7 (Aug 30, 2015)

The county or even the BBB? Not likely. Here's the reality:


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## tateltot (Dec 4, 2015)

will13k7 said:


> The county or even the BBB? Not likely. Here's the reality:


That's a reality. Many of these situations are handled out of court through reasonable discussions between a lawyer and a dealership's counsel (the first line of contact before corporate gets involved). They don't want to spend $5000 on a case anymore than you do. 

Assuming you're not trying to dishonestly represent a modification breaking your car (usually the case, eg. "Oh, my ecu always worked like that"), something the lawyer actually (and surprisingly) recommends in the video in his k&n example, a dealership isn't going to go to court trying to prove that you screwed up your transmission by installing springs and their justification in denying your warranty claim. 

As far as county and the BBB, most county registration offices handle things like emissions certifications and requirements, as well as valid expectations around insurance and reasonable modifications, and leveraging the better business bureau for potential warranty infringements is pretty common. 

For example, a while back, I received a notice from Allstate that they were discontinuing my insurance because I'd significantly modified the vehicle. I notified them that I would be challenging and submitted an appeal after verifying with the county that modifications unrelated to the insurance claim shouldn't be used as grounds for insurance discontinuation. 

A month after submitting my appeal, Allstate reinstated my insurance policy. They counted on most people just walking away. I wrote a single letter. 

My point here is that yeah, if you want to play it safe, don't change anything. But that's not really helpful assuming that most of us will modify our cars in some way. Informing the community about the ins and outs of this act, and their rights as a consumer, allows them to make their own informed decisions.


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## vayron333 (Sep 16, 2015)

Thanks everyone. Very good answers. I know my risks and I hope nothing goes wrong. Anyone of you had an issue with their engines after Revo/APR Stage I tune so far? How did the dealer handle it?


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## will13k7 (Aug 30, 2015)

tateltot said:


> a dealership isn't going to go to court trying to prove that you screwed up your transmission by installing springs and their justification in denying your warranty claim.


That's usually true with simple un-related bolt-ons, and I've gotten recall and non-engine-related warranty work done on my B8 S4 which is TD1 without any hassle or even mention of my tune.

With ECU tunes, its a different story though. If I blew the supercharger or encountered some other issue with the engine or transmission, that won't be covered, there multiple examples of this on the forums, and as the video above says, good luck trying to prove the ECU tune didn't put stresses beyond intended on the engine and transmission with experts you or your lawyers have assembled (if they would even take the case). 

People think the onus is on AUDI to prove the ECU tune is not related, but your SA just tells you they are not going to cover it, due to your tune, and if you want to get it fixed, first take off the tune (CEL example). At that point, unless you want to waste a bunch of more time and money than your already likely going to waste, and possibly be without your car for a long period of time, your pretty much covering the repairs on your own.


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## Spoooolin (Mar 31, 2015)

I ve been on the manufacture side of this whole debate before, (not VAG) 

Has talked to the manufactures group of lawyers, engineers, etc. etc. Its INCREDIBLY easy for them to prove what they need to in order to deny a claim. 

He is 100% correct in saying your warranty is not voided, just that particular claim is denied. Just b.c. I put a tune on my New Audi, doesn't mean you cant fix my drive door speaker. 


Long story short, you dont want to fight the manufacture on something like this.


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## roadrunner_oz (Jul 30, 2015)

You may want to read a recent APR tuning story and make your own mind up: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7695497-DSG-Broken-after-TCU-tune


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## vayron333 (Sep 16, 2015)

After reading the above post and many others I have the following points to make:

1) If you have an ECU tune then the dealer can find out during a routine service by connecting your car with their scanner/diagnostic tool. Your car will them be flag with TD1. 
2) Flashing back your car to stock will not remove TD1 flag and I am sorry but whoever tells you otherwise is a liar. 
3) After speaking with local APR dealer and 2 Revo dealers none of them wanted to comment on TD1. They all lie straight to my face that the dealer will not know the car was flashed. The local APR dealer did not get back to me although he said he will speak with HQ and get back to me the following day.


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## Baylorguy (Aug 18, 2012)

As others have already stated, it really comes down to weighing risk. If something goes boom, are you willing to accept the fact that you will be responsible? If so, go for it. The thing I don't understand is when a forum member alters the ECU for more power, fully knowing the risk, and in the rare of event of something malfunctioning, comes to the forum to complain that the dealership is not working with them. Why would they? 

That being said, I can't quantify this properly, but to me the risk is small. Assuming a person does not beat on the car every day and has spirited driving on occasion, I think the chances of something catastrophically going wrong are small. I have a firm belief in that if you take care of your car, it will typically last a long time. So while I believe you can reduce risk by driving with common sense when being modified (not romping on the car all the time), there is always a risk, as risk is tied to everything in life. 

Anyway, my 2 cents.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

vayron333 said:


> 2) Flashing back your car to stock will not remove TD1 flag and I am sorry but whoever tells you otherwise is a liar.


True.. What is less clear (though APR has stated their point of view on the forums repeatedly).. if you are not flagged TD1, and you have the tune removed (not just 'switch to stock map', but reflash a stock file), before going in, they can't detect it automatically. (They CAN 'detect' it by examining log files to see if you are producing way too much boost, for example).


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## Bobdhd (Jul 11, 2013)

I asked my dealer service rep straight out, even though I'm very well known there it still felt odd talking mods to him. He told me (I just asked about a catch can & the like to start the conversation) he's had people with down pipes & no one's batted an eye at it. It needed to be related to the problem, but, he said the company voids warranty on tunes. This is VW Canada of course but at least I got it from the horses mouth what my options are.


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## malibuboats91 (Dec 3, 2008)

I had a modded 2015 GLI that I had a lot of warranty issues with due to mods...It was lowered on DG springs/Koni dampers, tinted, carbonio intake, Uni turboback and APR Stage 2. 

My dealer had always been mod friendly and assured me they were when I bought my GLI. The issues came in when I started complaining about excessive rattles and their response would be that VWOA wouldn't give them time to look for them due to tinted windows and being lowered. Then I had the whole camshaft recall fixed after complaining to VWOA about it, which at the time they thought was replacing the camshaft. This resulted in my gas mileage dropping to 12 mpg and the VW field rep was supposed to come out to help them look the car over. The dealer warned me that my mods will most likely cause an issue so I took everything off and was going to take it in. Before doing so I decided to call the VWoA executive team to see what can be done and they asked for receipts for my lowering springs verifying professional installation and actually stated that they know I had modified the ECU. 

Needless to say I traded it in a few weeks ago. My issues were mostly caused by crap build quality of the GLI and a dealership that would buck every claim I had which would make it that I had to call VWOA on them. If you do mod just know that things can get messy. I knew that going in and just couldn't put up with it anymore and wasn't sure what would happen if they did come and look at my car so I traded it in. There are very few people that have had issues due to tuning, etc so don't let this scare you off. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spoooolin (Mar 31, 2015)

araemo said:


> True.. What is less clear (though APR has stated their point of view on the forums repeatedly).. if you are not flagged TD1, and you have the tune removed (not just 'switch to stock map', but reflash a stock file), before going in, they can't detect it automatically. (They CAN 'detect' it by examining log files to see if you are producing way too much boost, for example).


If you tell me that is your basis's for knowing my car was tuned, I ll tell you I am not tuned and that if the computer says I am ruining too much boost, then its an issue that needs to be addressed on their end and fixed under warranty. 

but anyways flashing the car back to stock, will clear any memory of higher boost levels, adjusted timing maps and the like. 

am I saying its 100% undetectable....no. Is there a WHOLE lot more that goes into it than people think...yes.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

Spoooolin said:


> If you tell me that is your basis's for knowing my car was tuned, I ll tell you I am not tuned and that if the computer says I am ruining too much boost, then its an issue that needs to be addressed on their end and fixed under warranty.
> 
> but anyways flashing the car back to stock, will clear any memory of higher boost levels, adjusted timing maps and the like.
> 
> am I saying its 100% undetectable....no. Is there a WHOLE lot more that goes into it than people think...yes.


I don't believe flashing alone clears the freeze frame data.. but often a full reset is done at the time of flashing to be on the safe side.. which does clear the freeze frame data.

As for your argument, have fun with that. I prefer to keep it aboveboard than to try and lie to my dealer that I'm asking to treat my car well.


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## lucretius (Mar 13, 2009)

The VW dealership that sold me my 2013 CC was also the one that flashed my ECU with an APR tune. Recently I got a notice from VW about needing a software update to the ECU. I brought my car into that same dealership, hoping to get the update (and wiping out the APR software). I now learn that this delearship is no longer an APR dealer. Also, my vehicle was flagged as TD1. I reluctantly agreed to pay a charge to have them flash the updated stock software on my vehickle, but they were unable to do so (I'm going to go to a APR dealer). But my car is still remains flagged as TD1. I hate VW.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

lucretius said:


> The VW dealership that sold me my 2013 CC was also the one that flashed my ECU with an APR tune. Recently I got a notice from VW about needing a software update to the ECU. I brought my car into that same dealership, hoping to get the update (and wiping out the APR software). I now learn that this delearship is no longer an APR dealer. Also, my vehicle was flagged as TD1. I reluctantly agreed to pay a charge to have them flash the updated stock software on my vehickle, but they were unable to do so (I'm going to go to a APR dealer). But my car is still remains flagged as TD1. I hate VW.


Why do you hate VW? You had YOUR car tuned.

Good luck.


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## Fire in the Whole (Jan 5, 2002)

I work for a VAG dealer and I can tell you that in my experience the dealers don't care if your car is modified, but we are bound by what VAG will cover. The dealership does not flag your car TD1 - that is done by someone at VAG when they see a suspect scan log. Once it is flashed, even if it is flashed back to stock they will always be able to tell due to the flash counter. 

On a strange note, there was a GTI in the VW shop recently that had an APR stage 1 tune, and it was hooked up to the scan tool twice in the last 6 months and it wasn't flagged. 

On another note, we had a car in the shop last year that had a tune and came in for engine drivability issues. The car flagged TD1 when scanned, and VAG ended up replacing the engine anyway. The cam bridge screen broke free and parts of it got stuck in the cam adjuster and parts of it went through the engine and caused damage. This MAY be why VAG still covered it because the failure didn't seem to be due to the extra power, as the screen issue is not uncommon in stock engines and isn't power related. They easily could have denied the claim due to the tune, but they were very reasonable.

Either way, tuning is a big gamble and I'm probably not going to tune my S3 because I don't want to risk the flag. It's still so damn tempting though! Honestly I really wouldn't be worried about the engine failing because it's so overbuilt at stock power levels. My concern would be the transmission, specifically the clutches. I've only seen a couple DSG transmissions fail, but I have seen the clutches and mech units fail, even on stock and well maintained cars. It can get pricey quickly.

Whenever there is a questionable warranty issue with a possible mod issue, make sure you are nice to the dealer employees. You'll find that many of them will go above and beyond to help you out if you treat them well, and sometimes we can even get repairs done after the warranty has expired. I just saved a guy $3500 on a transmission because I went to bat for him with VW because he was a nice guy and regularly services his car at the dealer. That extra $100 per year to get your car maintained at the dealer can often turn into thousands of dollars when VAG does a goodwill repair for you out of warranty because you were loyal and respectful. They will rarely pay the full price of the repair after warranty, but if I can give them a good reason they will often pay a good percentage of it.


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## tateltot (Dec 4, 2015)

Fire in the Whole said:


> ...always be able to tell due to the flash counter.


I think this is what makes Eurodyne so attractive. In the flash script, you can actually see where it resets the flash counter. How VAG sees that is unknown, of course, but "always" is a strong word.


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## atikovi (Oct 19, 2001)

Will a VAG dealer tell you if a car is flagged if you ask with the vin? If I'm looking at used models I want to know if the warranty is void or not before buying.


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