# Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design, Function, Operation, and Troubleshooting [Photos re-hosted]



## mkell (Jan 8, 2005)

I was fooling around with my car this morning and I was wondering where the actual tire pressure sensors are located. At first I thought I wouldn't have them since I have aftermarket wheels, but the in-cabin monitor still reads out the pressures. Thanks!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (mkell)*

Hello Tim:

The sensors themselves are mounted on the rim of the wheel, attached to the valve stem. This is why a Phaeton requires a special valve stem (not an inexpensive part, it costs about $20) - because the valve stem is part of the pressure sensor itself.

In the illustration below, you can see the sensor, which includes the transmitter assembly, on the left. On the right, you can see (approximately) where it is located on the rim relative to the valve stem.

Michael


*Phaeton Tire Pressure Sensor*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS03.jpg


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## whealy (Nov 15, 2004)

That's a very interesting pic. Thanks for sharing.
On my RX-8, they had put tire sensors, but they were just attached to the stem. No attachment to the wheel(rim). Caused several wheels to not work with the new mandiated sensors. I can only imagine how may don't fit the Phaeton, A8, (GT?) as a result of this setup. Not an issue for me. I won't be changing wheels.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*

A little while ago, I did a post in the Touareg forum that explained how the Park Distance Control system worked (VAG-COM Parking Assist Sensitivity Due To Trailer Hitch). That information was well received, so I thought perhaps I would do a similar explanation of how the Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) works. Here is is.

TPMS was originally developed for use with self supporting run-flat tires. The advantage of run-flat tires is that if a tire loses pressure at high speed, there is less likelihood of the driver losing control of the vehicle. The disadvantage of run-flat tires is that it is impossible to tell, just from looking at the tire, if it has air pressure in it or if it is flat. To avoid safety problems arising from drivers inadvertently operating their vehicle with under-inflated run-flat tires, the European Community (EC) introduced a rule requiring that cars equipped by the manufacturer with run-flat tires have a TPMS installed. The first large scale rollout of this technology was done by by BMW, with the E39 5-Series sold in Europe, beginning in the late 1990s.

The American government has recently mandated that TPMS systems be installed in all new vehicles sold beginning in 2007 or 2008 (I'm not sure of the exact date). This has nothing to do with run-flat tire technology, this rule was passed after research showed that only 17% of motorists in American ever checked tire pressure in the absence of unmistakable visual proof that the tire was flat. This research was precipitated by a flurry of publicity about SUV rollovers that were later determined to be caused, in part, by under inflated tires. Phaetons sold in Europe are offered with run-flat tires. Phaetons sold in North America are equipped with standard all season tires that do not have run-flat capability. 

The design of the TPMS system is quite straightforward: Each tire, including the spare, has a small sensor in it that detects the tire pressure and temperature, and responds like a transponder when it is interrogated by a signal from an antenna mounted in the wheel well area. The spare tire does not have a dedicated antenna, it is monitored by the rear wheel antennas on either side of the spare. Because the spare tire does not change temperature (when driving) as the other 4 tires do, it is quite easy for the TPMS system to determine which of the three rear tires within radio range is the spare.

The sensors are quite small, about 6 cm (2 ½ inches) long, and remarkably lightweight, considering that they have a battery inside that is designed to last 8 years. They are attached to the inside of the wheel rim, and are held in place by a small bolt that attaches them to the special valve stem used on the Phaeton. In the pictures below, you can see that the Phaeton rim has a flat flange opposite the valve stem hole – this is where the sensor mounts. There are several points that must be noted if you plan to install aftermarket wheels: 1) Make sure that the aftermarket wheel will accommodate the sensor; 2) Retain the special valve stem assembly that comes with the Phaeton, and; 3) Don’t use a ‘conventional’ tire demounting machine that uses a shovel type assembly to lift the tire bead over the rim, as such a mechanism will destroy the sensor during the bead lifting process.

The four pictures below show the sensor, and how it fits on the rim.

*Tire Pressure Monitoring Sensor*
_*NB:* The pictures show a Touareg sensor (hence the 7L0 part number) - the Phaeton sensor is similar, but a different part number. They are not interchangable._








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSSensorFront.jpg

*Opposite (facing rim) side of TPMS sensor*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSSensorRear.jpg

*Relationship of Sensor to inside of rim*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSSensorFlatFlange.jpg

*Sensor in place on rim*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSSensorinPlace.jpg


Below is some documentation from Volkswagen that explains how the system works. The principle is the same for the Touareg, which uses a very similar controller. I will elaborate on some of the information presented by VW further on in this document.


*TPMS System Description and Functional Overview*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS01.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS02.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS03.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS04.jpg

_*NOTE:* Transmitter ID's shown in the diagram above are samples only, the actual ID will be different in every car._









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS05.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS06.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS07.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS08.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS09.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMS10.jpg

_*Note:* North American Phaetons do not give the driver the capability to turn off the TPMS, or turn off spare tire monitoring, as shown in the illustration above. This capability is provided on Phaetons purchased in Europe._

It needs to be noted that there are some functional differences between the system as described in the foregoing documents, and what we actually received installed in our Phaetons. The North American implementation of TPMS does not allow the driver to turn the TPMS off (for example, when winter tires that are not run-flat design are installed), and it does not allow the driver to turn monitoring of the spare tire off – as would be desirable after changing a tire, to avoid nuisance warnings about the flat spare tire.

On page 7 of the descriptive guide, the text states “the wheel electronics send data messages every 54 seconds.” This is not 100% correct, a more accurate way of putting it would be “the car polls the pressure sensor in the wheel every 54 seconds.” The pressure sensors in the wheel function as transponders, similar to the EZ Pass or SpeedPass used for toll highway systems. If they are not polled, they do not respond.

If a pressure loss is noted in the course of the ‘regular’ polling (normal sending speed) once every 54 seconds, the vehicle will increase polling speed dramatically, to ‘rapid sending speed’, as noted in the document above. Various types of pressure loss can be recognized, for example, a slow leak, a sudden loss of pressure, or pressure falling below either of two thresholds: one that is set by the driver when the system is programmed, and another that is coded into the system with a diagnostic scan tool, based on engine type. The system also recognizes problems that arise from pressure asymmetry on individual axles or between axles.

The system design is such that it can only “learn” new tire pressures (meaning, the driver can only set new tire pressures) when the wheels and pressure sensors are cold. It takes quite a while for the wheel and pressure sensor to cool down – up to 12 hours, depending on ambient temperatures – and the wheel and pressure sensor can still be warm long after the tire itself feels cool to the touch. For this reason, new pressures should only be entered into the system after the car has sat, unused, overnight.

Once the driver enters new pressures, the driver must complete a ‘calibration cycle’ with the vehicle, to allow the system to build a table of indicated absolute pressures relative to sensor and wheel temperatures. This requires that the vehicle be driven – typically for about 15 minutes – at speed sufficient to heat the tires, wheels, and sensors up to normal operating pressure. This is most easily accomplished by a 15 minute drive on a highway. You will notice when the calibration has finished when the "learing" message in the instrument panel display disappears, once the calibration cycle has been successfully completed. Although it might be possible to complete a calibration cycle by driving in a city, the risk exists that the tires, wheels, and sensors will not get hot enough within the 30minute time period allowed for the calibration cycle. If this is the case, the calibration cycle will not complete successfully, and an error code (that can be observed with a diagnostic scan tool) will be returned. An unsuccessful calibration attempt, as a result of the tires, wheels and pressure sensors not getting hot enough, is not explicitly announced to the driver by the displays in the vehicle. All the driver will see is that the system did not learn the new pressures, and he or she will have to re-attempt a complete calibration cycle another time, once the tires, wheels, and sensors have fully cooled off.

To a certain extent, behaviour and functionality of the system can be controlled by recoding the J502 TPMS controller with a diagnostic scan tool, such as a VAG-COM or VAS 5051 / 5052. On the Phaeton, it is possible to turn off monitoring for the spare tire by changing the third digit from the right from a 2 to a 3 (details here: Tire Pressure Monitoring System - watch 4 tires, or 5? How-to... . I have not yet determined how to enable North American Phaeton owners to turn the TPMS system on and off, or how to enable us to turn spare tire monitoring on and off from the Front Information Display and Control Head, as is possible on European Phaetons. ScienceGeek (Arend), who is one of the more scholarly posters on the Touareg forum, has done some pioneering research on this subject, and you can review his progress to date at this post:  TPMS (Tire pressure control system) control via VAG COM . Some caution must be exercised before these conclusions are carried over to the Phaeton. The Touareg drivers control the TPMS through the instrument cluster, and Phaeton drivers control TPMS through the Front Information Display and Control Head. Nevertheless, the work ScienceGeek has done looks promising. What we Phaeton owners need is to see a VAG-COM scan from a European Phaeton, that would probably give us the information we need to proceed further.

Below is the VAG-COM label file for the Phaeton TPMS controller - 3D0-907-273.lbl. The label file consists of three different sets of information: Description of the contents of measured value blocks (MVB), coding information, and adaptation information. The coding information is incomplete, the significance of the first two digits at the far left of the coding value is not yet known for the Phaeton.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here is the text of the VAG-COM label file for the Phaeton TPMS.

;
; VAG-COM label file 3D0-907-273.lbl
;
; VW Phaeton (3D) - up to and including model year 2005 (fully tested with 2004 W12 Phaeton)
; VW Bentley Continental GT - up to and including model year 2005 (not tested with this vehicle)
;
; Component: Tire Pressure Monitoring -J502- (address #65)
;
; p/n: 3D0 907 273 A
; 3D0 907 273 B
; 3D0 907 273 C Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021 (Phaeton) - fully tested on this vehicle.
; 3D0 907 273 D
; 3D0 907 273 E
; 3W0 907 273 Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0022 (Bentley Continental GT) - not tested on this vehicle
;
; includes measured value blocks, coding, and adaptation. Also user guidance (remarks) embedded in the file.
;
; by Sebastian Stange ([email protected])
; modified by Michael Moore ([email protected])
;
; last modified: 11/05/2004 (Sebastian)
; last modified: 27/March/2005 (Michael) 'PanEuropean' on the VW Vortex forum.
; tested on a 2004 W12 Phaeton - not all blocks may show on other vehicles.
;
; ready for VAG-COM 402.3 and above
;
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
; measured value block information
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
;NOTES CONCERNING TPMS ADAPTATION:
;Measured Value Blocks 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15 are stored only when the system is relearned. 
;Therefore this information is not always an accurate representation of current wheel location and status.
;In addition, one faulty wheel sensor has the potential to create faults at multiple wheel locations.
;
;How to identify current tire pressure monitoring sensor locations:
; – Vehicle must be parked 4 meters (12 feet) AWAY from other vehicles with same or similar tire pressure monitoring system.
;If vehicles with same or similar systems (e.g. other Phaetons or Touaregs) are parked too close to one another there is a 
;high probability of the systems interfering with each other.
;
;Battery life shown in MVB 2,5,8 and 11 Field 2 is only usable if the system has learned all wheel
;locations. If this is the case it can be determined in MVB 19, where 00025 is the standard value for
;a system that is active and set. If the system is not active (showing any other number in MVB 19), it
;will still show the last values that were stored the last time it was operating correctly. During the
;learning drive MVB 19 will start with 00265 and will add numbers to this field, until it reaches a
;maximum of 63545. This can be observed during the learning drive with the VAG-COM. If the setting
;value not reached within 30 minutes, an error message is generated. The duration of the test or
;learn drive depends on how fast the tires warm up. Highway will be faster than within the city, stop
;and go traffic might not set at all.
;
001,0,Front Left Wheel
001,1,Front Left,wheel position
001,2,Temperature,of wheel,Specified value: -40...120 °C/not recognized
001,3,Current pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
001,4,Specified pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
;
002,0,Front Left Wheel Transmitter Battery Status
002,1,Position
002,2,Remaining months,of battery life,Specified value: 0...99 months
;
003,0,Transmitter Status - 'Ub. i.O' means 'Monitoring OK' - 'Ub. n.i.O.' means 'Monitoring not OK'
003,1,Position,,'Rad' means wheel in German. vl (vor links) means front left in German.
003,2,Transmitter ID,,A unique ID number - sort of like a computer MAC address - assigned to that specific transmitter
003,3,Transmitter,Status
003,4,Last known status,of sensor,Specified value: 00h (defective) 01h (normal sending speed) 02h (rapid sending speed) Ub. i.O./Ub. n.i.O./no Signal
;
004,0,Front Right Wheel
004,1,Front Right,wheel position
004,2,Temperature,of wheel,Specified value: -40...120 °C/not recognized
004,3,Current pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
004,4,Specified pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
;
005,0,Transmitter Battery Status
005,1,Position
005,2,Remaining months,of battery life,Specified value: 0...99 month
;
006,0,Transmitter Status - 'Ub. i.O' means 'Monitoring OK' - 'Ub. n.i.O.' means 'Monitoring not OK'
006,1,Position,,'Rad' means wheel in German. vr (vor rechts) means front right in German
006,2,Transmitter ID,,A unique ID number - sort of like a computer MAC address - assigned to that specific transmitter
006,3,Transmitter,Status
006,4,Last known status,of sensor,Specified value: 00h (defective) 01h (normal sending speed) 02h (rapid sending speed) Ub. i.O./Ub. n.i.O./no Signal
;
007,0,Rear Left Wheel
007,1,Wheel position
007,2,Temperature,of wheel,Specified value: -40...120 °C/not recognized
007,3,Current pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
007,4,Specified pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
;
008,0,Transmitter Battery Status
008,1,Position
008,2,Remaining months,of battery life,Specified value: 0...99 month
;
009,0,Transmitter Status - 'Ub. i.O' means 'Monitoring OK' - 'Ub. n.i.O.' means 'Monitoring not OK'
009,1,Position,,:'Rad' means wheel in German. hl (hinten links) means rear left in German
009,2,Transmitter ID,,A unique ID number - sort of like a computer MAC address - assigned to that specific transmitter
009,3,Transmitter,Status
009,4,Last known status,of sensor,Specified value: 00h (defective) 01h (normal sending speed) 02h (rapid sending speed) Ub. i.O./Ub. n.i.O./no Signal
;
010,0,Rear Right Wheel
010,1,Wheel position
010,2,Temperature,of wheel,Specified value: -40...120 °C/not recognized
010,3,Current pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
010,4,Specified pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
;
011,0,Transmitter Battery Status
011,1,Position
011,2,Remaining months,of battery life,Specified value: 0...99 month
;
012,0,Transmitter Status - 'Ub. i.O' means 'Monitoring OK' - 'Ub. n.i.O.' means 'Monitoring not OK'
012,1,Position,,'Rad' means wheel in German. hr (hinten rechts) means rear right in German
012,2,Transmitter ID,,A unique ID number - sort of like a computer MAC address - assigned to that specific transmitter
012,3,Transmitter,Status
012,4,Last known status,of sensor,Specified value: 00h (defective) 01h (normal sending speed) 02h (rapid sending speed) Ub. i.O./Ub. n.i.O./no Signal
;
013,0,Spare Wheel
013,1,Wheel position
013,2,Temperature,of wheel,Specified value: -40...120 °C/not recognized
013,3,Current pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
013,4,Specified pressure,corrected to 20°C,Specified value: 0...5.37 bar
;
014,0,Transmitter Battery Status
014,1,Position
014,2,Remaining months,of battery life,Specified value: 0...99 month
;
015,0,Transmitter Status - 'Ub. i.O' means 'Monitoring OK' - 'Ub. n.i.O.' means 'Monitoring not OK'
015,1,Position,,'Rad' means wheel in German. rr (reserve rad) means spare tire in German
015,2,Transmitter ID,,A unique ID number - sort of like a computer MAC address - assigned to that specific transmitter
015,3,Transmitter,Status
015,4,Last known status,of sensor,Specified value: 00h (defective) 01h (normal sending speed) 02h (rapid sending speed) Ub. i.O./Ub. n.i.O./no Signal
;
016,0,Current / real time scrolling status of all transmitter ID’s and sending speeds.
016,1,,,Note that '01h' is normal sending speed and '02h' is rapid sending speed (2h = leak detected). 00h = defective sensor.
;
;NOTE: A pressure release of more than 3.0 psi. (0.2 bar) will change the sensor in wheel from 01h to 02h (normal sending speed to rapid sending speed).
;It will remain in rapid sending speed for 3 minutes following the loss of pressure.
;'Ub. i.O' means 'Monitoring OK' - 'Ub. n.i.O.' means 'Monitoring not OK' (Translated from German)
;
017,1,,,ID number of the dealership who last adapted this controller
017,2,Controller,Voltage supply,Specified value: 0...25.5 V
017,3,Vehicle status,,Specified value: 1 = stopped/0 = driving
017,4,Vehicle speed,,Specified value: 0...255 km/h
;
018,0,Atmospheric Conditions
018,1,Outside air,temperature,Specified value: -40...120 °C
;
019,0,Operational status of the control module (see label file for details)
;Examples:
;25 -> after 15 Power cycles -> Ideal
;265 -> System has wheel reception and is learning
;63545 -> Final value of the learned confirmation drive
;
20,0,Convenience Controller Area Network (CAN) Bus Status
20,1,CAN Bus,Mode
;
021,1,Antenna,diagnosis,inactive/wait/Message End (see label file for details)
;Antenna diagnosis runs -> wait
;Antenna diagnosis finished -> MESS end
;Read fault error. After that there will be a fault entry for every antenna that is not OK
;
022,0,*Next measuring block used is 26
;
026,0,Front left wheel - Condition memory of the last 32 ignition cycles
;Examples:
;6 -> soft warning
;7 -> rejected calibration
;8 -> hard warning
;If two different conditions in the same 15 power cycle arise, the highest is registered
;
027,0,Front right wheel - Condition memory of the last 32 ignition cycles
;
028,0,Rear left wheel - Condition memory of the last 32 ignition cycles
;
029,0,Rear right wheel - Condition memory of the last 32 ignition cycles
;
030,0,Spare wheel - Condition memory of the last 32 ignition cycles
;
031,0,*Next known measuring block is 80
;
080,0,Manufacturer work number and identification
; Date of manufacture
; Manufacturer changing status
; Manufacturer test stand no.
; Running manufacturer no.
; e.g. BPA = Bosch factory Ansbach
;
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
; Phaeton coding information
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
;
C00,Tire Pressure Monitoring System (J502) Coding
C01, 
C02,?xxxx - Identification of manufacturer of the TPMS.
C03,1 - Volkswagen
C04, 
C05,x?xxx - Time interval for system operation.
C06,0 - Standard
C07, 
C08,xx?xx - Total number of tires to be monitored
C09,2 - 5 tires (vehicle has a full size spare)
C10,3 - 4 tires (vehicle has no spare tire)
C11, 
C12,xxx?x - Type of engine installed (believed to refer to type of disc & caliper installed)
C13,0 - V6 Europe OR V8 North America
C14,2 - V8 Europe OR W12 North America
C15,4 - V10 Europe
C16,8 - W12 Europe
C17, 
C18,xxxx? -Full load specified pressures
C19,4 - Standard
;
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
; adaptation information
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
;
;Remark: Security code is required for adaptation functions.
;
;
A017,0,Antenna Diagnosis Mode Enable
A017,5,Antenna Diagnosis
A017,6,Here you can enable the Antenna Diagnosis mode.
A017,7
A017,8, 
A017,9,Choices: 1 = Enables antenna diagnosis mode.
A017,10, 
A017,11,View status of test in measuring block 21
A017,12,Test takes about 1 minute to complete.
A017,13,'Check END' will be displayed in block 21-01 when test is finished.
A017,14, 
A017,15,WARNING - be sure vehicle is at least 4 meters (12 feet) away from any other
A017,16,vehicle or loose wheels equipped with TPMS sensors when performing this test!
;



_Modified by PanEuropean at 4:36 PM 4-12-2005_


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Thank you for this great information and all I have learned from you and all contributors to this forum.
I want to rotate the tires myself and experiment with tire pressures.
Questions: If each sensors has an individual ID code, what happens when you rotate the tires? Anything I have to do? If I wait 12 hours until all is cool, reset the tire pressures, reset the pressure specs on the console, are there any problems or anything else I must do? Will there be a fault light while the system relearns the pressure specs?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_ If each sensors has an individual ID code, what happens when you rotate the tires?

Wow. Good question, I really don't know the answer to that one. I can take a guess, but please keep in mind that this is just a guess.
My guess is that the car might be a little confused about things if you rotate the tires. It might continue to report normally, but what will happen is that it will report the status of the tire that was (for example) originally on the right front position as if that tire was still on the right front position, even though that tire might now be on the right rear.
Or, the system might be smart enough to note that the transponders have changed position, and as a result, either start an adaptation (learning) process by itself - giving you notice that it is doing that - or it might ask you to initiate an adaptation (learning) process, using the soft-key.

If it was my car, I would initiate an adaptation cycle manually after rotating the tires. That way, I would be sure that the vehicle re-learns the correct position of each transponder.

*About Rotating Tires*
I had a quick look in the Phaeton maintenance manual to see if there was any information there about tire rotation - I could not find any. I don't have my owner manual handy - I loaned my Phaeton to a neighbor for the weekend, he's thinking of buying one. I'm driving his BMW, which is, let's just say, an 'interesting' vehicle. It's different.
Anyway - there are a whole pile of considerations you have to plan for if you intend to rotate tires. First, before you lift or jack the car to remove the tire, you need to put the car into a special "jacking up mode", so as not to confuse the level control system. Otherwise, as you start lifting one corner of the car, the car will start extending the air strut at that corner in an effort to keep the wheel planted properly on the ground. This could be very funny to watch, but kind of frustrating for you. There is an explanation of how to do this in the owner manual somewhere - probably near the instructions for changing a flat tire.
Second, you'll have to figure out what the rotation pattern is for the tires. I have no idea about that.
Third - the torque value for the wheel bolts is 120 N·m (88 foot-pounds). Don't forget to re-check the torque on the bolts after about 100 km (60 miles) of driving. There have been numerous reports of accidents as a result of the rim shifting slightly on a car following wheel installation, and the bolts working loose. This practice applies to all vehicles, it is not a VW specific thing.

*VW Recommended Tire Inflation Pressures*
You have two choices of what to use as inflation pressures for your tires - the pressures that the VW engineers in Germany recommend, or the pressures that the US NHTSA has required automobile manufacturers to recommend. The former is reproduced in a table below (this taken from the English language VW Service Manual for the Phaeton), the latter can be found on a sticker placed on the driver door B pillar of your car. The reason for the difference between the two values is discussed at this thread: Tire Pressures, Ride Comfort and Road Noise. That will appear at first glance to be a W12 specific thread, but towards the end of it, you will see that it applies to all North American vehicles of any manufacture.

Michael


*Volkswagen Engineering Department Recommended Tire Pressures for 2004 Phaetons*










http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TirePressuresforPhaeton.jpg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

By the way - below is a picture of the tire pressure monitoring control module. This particular one is from a Touareg. I bought it because I want to see if I can get control of the TPMS function (turning it on or off, turning spare tire monitoring on or off) on my North American Phaeton if I install a slightly different module. The European Phaetons allow the driver to turn the TPMS system on or off, for example when winter tires and wheels are installed.

Here is a link to a couple of other discussions about TPMS functionality, in case anyone is interested:
Turning off TPMS warnings for the spare, if the spare is flat
TPMS Coding and control via VAG-COM (a discussion in the Touareg forum)

*The Tire Pressure Monitoring Controller*
_This one has a Touareg part number on it, but it is visually identical to a Phaeton controller._








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TouaregTPMSController1.jpg









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TouaregTPMSController2.jpg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

The photo below shows where the TPMS controller is located on a Phaeton. This picture is of the battery compartment on the left hand side of the car (where the vehicle power supply battery is), this is the battery compartment with the two 'easy to open' fasteners on it. The TPMS controller slides into two little slots on the bottom of the big relay panel, to remove it, just pull it straight out. The wiring harness is long enough to allow it to be removed without disconnecting anything.
Michael

*TPMS Controller Location on Phaetons*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSControllerLocation-Phaeton.jpg


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Owner's manual 3.1.1 page 28, "the symbol lights up when tire pressure monitoring is not possible. ...if the system is learning, i.e. if new tire pressures and *wheel positions* are being allocated at the request of the driver." See also 3.1.2 page 58. Looks like accounting for wheel position (Tire rotation) is part of the TPMS learning process. Nothing extra to do when rotating the tires except recognize that the TPMS system may alert you that it is learning or that it is temporarily inoperable. Sounds like tires should be rotated cold as well.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Just to let everyone know ...
I let the car sit overnight, rotated the tires and droppped the pressure in all tires to 37 psi. I left the trunk spare at 44 psi. I then hit the reset function on the infotainment and guess what? The TPMS accepted all of it without any problems after about 10-15 miles of driving at 55-60mph.
The TPMS appears to make the change seemlessly. The trunk tire pressure was no problem.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

Hi Robert:
Glad to hear that it all went well, thanks for passing on the information.
Will you be able to make it to the get-together this weekend? It's only a 200 mile trip from where you are, and I think it will be a lot of fun, and well worth the drive. We have about 20 people confirmed now. Let me know.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

a few other notes...
a soft key reset is required. according to the owner's manual, the TPMS relearns the new tire positions based on the ID code.
Related topic - The steering feels much tighter at 37 psi vs 45-50 psi there was some variability in the pressure between tires). I expected the ride to be softer but the difference in steering was very unexpected. Also, I drove the car about 60 miles in my usual manner and did not obtain a milage decrease with the softer tires! obviously, there is some lower pressure at which the fuel economy will decrease but there is no initial indication that this pressure is 37 psi.
I am concerned about the possibility of summer heat creating extremely high tire pressures that will cause tire wear problems and premature tire failure. Just as too low tire pressure causes problems, overinflation may be just as bad.
overinflation reduces the energy absorbing capacity of the tire, causing the suspension and body to absorb greater energy over bumps along the road.
Is there a tire pressure, below which, gas milage decreases more sharply? is the relationship between tire pressure and gas milage linear? I doubt that it is.
I'm going to experiment. I plan to drive 500 miles at 45 psi, 500 at 37 psi, 500 at 33 psi, 500 at 30 psi, and 500 at 27 psi, and plot milage vs. tire pressure for the V8 phaeton. The 500 miles at 45 psi has already been done. the other 2000 miles i can knock out in about a month, driving the same 150 mile round trip 3 times a week. If I limit the driving to the same closed course, a combination of highway and 3 towns, I can eliminate other variables such as different driving conditions and different seasonal temperatures and wind velocity. I will also need to use the same driving technique from day to day.


----------



## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_ Will you be able to make it to the get-together this weekend? It's only a 200 mile trip from where you are, and I think it will be a lot of fun, and well worth the drive. We have about 20 people confirmed now. Let me know.
Michael

Unfortunately, I can't make it. I have to recertify in Advanced Trauma life Suport this weekend in order to keep my credentials at a certain hospital which are due for renewal. No job, no phaeton.
I so much wanted to go and meet fellow phaeton owners and see their phaeton. I know that area in Michigan very well. I once, in another life was an automotive paint chemist for BASF in Southfield, MI which is very close and tokk engineering courses at awrence Institute of Technology in Southfield - John Delorean's alma matter.
If this get together goes well though, maybe it could be an anual event.


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## rljones (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re:*

I re-set my 2004 V8 system to accept 38 psi all around during the winter here in So. Calif. (when temp was maybe 10°C this past January). The system has indicated no problems until last week. About 2 weeks ago, we went to Arizona where temps were 30°C; tires were OK; we put on about 1000 miles of highway driving.
Now back in California with temp around 20°C, a yellow warning is on for all tires; it came on one morning upon starting up the car. BTW, since I adjusted the tires in January, I have neither addeed nor removed air from any tire.
I manually checked the tires after the warning appeared; each tire was at 39 or 39.5 psi. I re-adjusted all to 39 psi and still the yellow warning is on for all tires. Any ideas as to what the fault is?
Thanks, Robert


----------



## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Re: (rljones)*

It takes several miles of driving before new pressures are accepted.


----------



## rljones (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re:*

I thought this might be the case, but I've now driven maybe 100 miles and still the warning is displayed---and bings at me when I start the car. (Normally, a reset takes 5 to 10 miles.)
Robert


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (rljones)*

Hi Robert:
What is the exact text of the warning message on the display between the speedometer and the odometer, and what is the exact text of what is displayed on the big central infotainment screen? The reason I ask is because there are about 8 possible messages, and I need to know what the exact message is before I can give you a better answer.
Michael


----------



## rljones (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for your offer to help, but I unfortunately did not record exactly what the display said. I finally gave up and re-set the whole thing, so now I cannot answer your question.
All I remember is that upon starting the car, it would bing a warning and the driver's display would say something like 'warning' and then revert to a yellow tire symbol. The main screen in center would show yellow exclamation symbols at each wheel.
The thing that is most odd is I set the pressures when cold in winter and when at their warmest in Arizona, nothing happened. Only a week or two later at very moderate ambient temperatures, the warning suddenly goes off.
I also meant to ask you, do you know why the tires pressures indicate "OK". Why not display the actual pressure of each tire instead of a simple "OK", and then show one pressure between two wheels when they may not be the same?
Regards, Robert


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (rljones)*

Hi Robert:
Glad to hear that the problem went away. It's kind of hard to make an intelligent, educated guess about what may have caused it (and from that, how to deal with it if it recurs) without knowing the exact text of the message. In the training materials posted higher up in this thread, you can see examples of the different types of warnings that you can get. I know it takes a long time to read through all of that stuff, and some of it may go into more detail that you want, but it does give you a pretty good overview of how the system works.
You asked some good questions in your post - I'll try to address them one by one, to the best of my ability. Do keep in mind that I am just a Phaeton owner, not a technician or a VW person.

_Quote, originally posted by *rljones* »_...upon starting the car, it would bing a warning and the driver's display would say something like 'warning' and then revert to a yellow tire symbol. The main screen in center would show yellow exclamation symbols at each wheel... ... I finally gave up and re-set the whole thing...

OK, that is pretty good information right there. The fact that you had an exclamation point at every wheel, and not just one wheel, means that whatever happened, it affected the monitoring system controller, not one of the tires or wheels. In other words, nothing actually changed out there at the 4 corners of your car. There was no air leak, there was no problem with a transponder in one of the wheels, or with an antenna. You encountered a systemic problem with your *monitoring system*, not a pressure-related problem with one of your 5 wheels. Hopefully that puts your mind at ease about safety.
You stated that you reset the system (told it to re-learn the tire pressures) and it did so, and is now working well. That's also good news, because it proves that the system works properly, and that it has re-calibrated itself. The TPMS has its own little controller (computer) that runs it, and when you reset it, you (more or less) re-booted it. I am sure you have encountered a similar transient problem with a computer at your home or office in the past - something doesn't work right, so you shut down and reboot the computer, and when it restarts, it works OK. If it only happens once, and the problem does not occur again - personally, I'd say forget about it, it's just 'one of those things'. It's not significant.

_Quote, originally posted by *rljones* »_The thing that is most odd is I set the pressures when cold in winter and when at their warmest in Arizona, nothing happened. Only a week or two later at very moderate ambient temperatures, the warning suddenly goes off.

I don't think that is germane to the problem you encountered. Some owners have reported in the past that a sudden, significant change in outside air temperature (e.g. first big cold snap of the winter) might set off a low pressure warning in one specific tire. In your case, you had a system problem, not a tire problem. That's why I don't think temperature had anything to do with it. In fact, I don't even think the tires themselves had anything to do with it.
By any chance could one of your kids (or nieces or nephews) have been fooling around with the buttons on the infotainment system, while you were, for example, inside the store picking up a jug of milk? If someone presses the 'vehicle' button, then the 'new pressures' soft-key (whatever it says, something like that), you will get an amber warning message in the instrument cluster telling you that the system is unavailable, and you will see an exclamation point at every tire on the big infotainment screen. In order to "re-learn' the pressures, the car has to be driven for about 15 minutes, preferably on a freeway, within 30 minutes of the button being pushed. If you only made a short drive home after the warning was displayed, that would not have been enough to allow the system to relearn the pressures. There is more detail about this process further up in this post.

_Quote, originally posted by *rljones* »_...do you know why the tires pressures indicate "OK". Why not display the actual pressure of each tire instead of a simple "OK", and then show one pressure between two wheels when they may not be the same?

I think I know why, but I say this under the possibility of correction from someone who is more knowledgeable than me: When you first adapt the system (meaning, you set the tire pressures using an air hose and a calibrated gauge, then you press the 'learn new pressures' softkey on the Front Information and Display Control Head - the big screen between the seats), the car takes note of the (stone cold) tire pressure, and the temperature of the transponder attached to the inside of the rim. You then go for a drive cycle and warm up the tires. You do this so the controller can create a lookup table that correlates pressure rise to temperature rise. This will vary depending on a number of things - your altitude above sea level, the moisture content of the air inside the tire, the particular "delta T" (thermal gradient characteristics) of your tire and rim combination, and so forth. After the vehicle has been driven long enough, fast enough to cause a temperature rise to happen, and allow a lookup table to be created, the system finishes its learning process, and is now "ready".
But - the system itself never really knows what the actual "relative" pressure is - meaning, the differential between outside (ambient) temperature, and pressure inside the tire. The sensor is only INSIDE the tire, remember? When you check the tire pressure the old-fashioned way, with a gauge on the valve stem, you are reading relative pressure - the differential between the pressure in the tire and the pressure outside the tire. The gauge reads zero before you put it on the tire, it does not read 13.5 PSI, which is the absolute air pressure of the atmosphere surrounding the tire. 
I think you can see what I am getting at - the sensors learn what the acceptable range of absolute pressure inside the tire is at various temperatures - they never learn relative pressure. It's possible to infer relative pressure, but that cannot be done with a high level of accuracy. So, after you adapt the system by putting it through a learning cycle, it then tells you that the tire is OK - meaning, within the allowable range of absolute pressure variation - or NOT OK, meaning, outside the allowable range. VW would be suggesting a level of precision that does not actually exist if they displayed an inferred relative pressure, and passed it off to you as a calibrated relative pressure.
I hope that was not too 'techy' an explanation, but it is the best I can come up with. If anyone more knowledgeable about this than I can add to it, simplify it, or correct me, I would be most grateful to hear from you.
Michael


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Robert:
But - the system itself never really knows what the actual "relative" pressure is - meaning, the differential between outside (ambient) temperature, and pressure inside the tire. The sensor is only INSIDE the tire, remember? When you check the tire pressure the old-fashioned way, with a gauge on the valve stem, you are reading relative pressure - the differential between the pressure in the tire and the pressure outside the tire. The gauge reads zero before you put it on the tire, it does not read 13.5 PSI, which is the absolute air pressure of the atmosphere surrounding the tire. 
I think you can see what I am getting at - the sensors learn what the acceptable range of absolute pressure inside the tire is at various temperatures - they never learn relative pressure. It's possible to infer relative pressure, but that cannot be done with a high level of accuracy. So, after you adapt the system by putting it through a learning cycle, it then tells you that the tire is OK - meaning, within the allowable range of absolute pressure variation - or NOT OK, meaning, outside the allowable range. VW would be suggesting a level of precision that does not actually exist if they displayed an inferred relative pressure, and passed it off to you as a calibrated relative pressure.

Michael

OK, Michael, an "outside the tire" sensor would correct the issue and perhaps allow the display of the actual tire pressures. I hope so, because it leads to this next question!
Could the Tire Pressure Monitoring System interface with the air suspension system of the Phaeton such that the car could tell the driver when the vehicle is overloaded and so needs more air in the tires?
I plan to run 40 pounds front and 37 rear pounds pressure in the tires - it's usually just me and a passenger in the car. But one day say I decide to take a road trip with 4 passengers and 250 pounds of stuff in the trunk, the car could provide a warning if it knew what the tire pressure was in each tire and also knew approximately how much weight it was carrying. 
It could infer the weight by monitoring how much air pressure it sends to the suspension air springs to maintain the ride height. More pressure means the car is loaded with more weight. The info display could indicate the front, rear or all tires need to be pressurized more to meet the added demand.
I think if such a system were in place, the cars might be deliverable with a reasonable air pressure, with the benefits to steering feel and ride, as noted by others in this discussion thread, rather than the max.


_Modified by Paldi at 6:46 PM 5-20-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Paldi)*

Hello Fred:

I suppose what you propose is technically possible, but I (personally) don't think it is really the wisest way of going about things.
You need to keep the driver of the vehicle 'in the loop', so to speak, and you also need to maintain a certain obligation on the driver of the vehicle to take responsibility for the correct loading of the vehicle, and the correct configuration of the vehicle. This is an old-fashioned concept that has been legislated out of existence in the United States by the NHTSA.

So, you basically have two 'man-machine interface' systems that you can choose from. They are as follows:

*1) The American model * - The government assumes the driver is an idiot who will not every bother to check tire pressure, so, the government mandates that tires be inflated to the maximum pressure that could ever be needed, and forces manufacturers to put stickers on the car to this effect, and to take away from the driver the option to turn off TPMS.

*2) The Rest of World (ROW) model* - the vehicle manufacturer puts a sticker on the car telling the driver what pressures should be used for what loading configuration, and expects that the driver will purchase and use a good tire pressure gauge. The TPMS system is only intended to detect a deviation from the pressure that the owner sets while the car is in motion - not for the life of the vehicle.

For Pete's sake, if you try to idiot-proof the car... the roads will fill up with idiots. In other words - recognize that the purpose of TMPS is to warn you of a sudden, unexpected change in pressure - such as what might happen if you drive over a nail - not to take care of monitoring a function that the driver should be monitoring him or herself, namely, choosing the correct pressure for the tires, and setting that pressure.
BTW, there is a much more detailed discussion of this topic here: Why are tire pressures so high in North America?

*Tire Pressure Sticker - North America*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/NorthAmericanW12TirePressure.jpg

*Tire Pressure Sticker - Europe*
{awaiting photo}


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hello Fred:
For Pete's sake, if you try to idiot-proof the car... the roads will fill up with idiots. In other words - recognize that the purpose of TMPS is to warn you of a sudden, unexpected change in pressure - such as what might happen if you drive over a nail - not to take care of monitoring a function that the driver should be monitoring him or herself, namely, choosing the correct pressure for the tires, and setting that pressure. 


I agree with all that, and worry that the American legal mumbo jumbo, already making it difficult in Canada, as your cars are US spec, will spread to ROW. But the major gripe I have is that the tire pressure issue has messed up the suspension and steering of the car to the degree that the press declares the car to have a "non-compliant" suspension over low speed bumps and light, twitchy steering. That's a damn shame. To the degree that the higher US ride height was partly dictated by a fear of lawyers and not road conditions, my feelings are the same. Shame on them.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Paldi)*

Agreed.
As soon as I can find a V8 Phaeton here, I will take a picture of the tire pressure sticker for it, and post it on the other thread, so we have complete reference information for rest of world (ROW) tire pressure specifications. But - gasoline powered cars are few and far between here. Diesels have the lion's share of the market - my guess is probably about 75% of all high end cars sold in Europe (Mercedes S, BMW 7, Jaguar, Phaeton) are diesels.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Related post, showing the trouble that can happen if someone (an owner or a technician) doesn't take the time to read the instructions before attempting to put the TPMS through the learning cycle: Car is fixed mostly but has a new problem. Tire pressure problem.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

What the warning message looks like when the car has a flat tire.

Note that I have my North American Phaeton coded to indicate that it is in Europe (see this post: How to get rid of the "Key in Ignition" warning chime (Changing Country Code)), for that reason, my car uses the British spelling of the word 'tire' when it is set to display English language text.

Michael


*Flat Tire Warning*
_not much chance of misinterpreting this..._








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/FlatTire-1.jpg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Attached below is a Technical Bulletin (TB) from Volkswagen that describes the procedure for coding a TPMS control module when the module is replaced. There is nothing of great interest in this TB, which is why I have not posted it before, however, a question came up in another thread (Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel) about this TB, so, I'm posting it here so everyone can see the contents of it.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here is another Technical Bulletin (TB) from VW concerning the Tire Pressure Monitoring System.
This is a very detailed and very well written TB that provides the Phaeton technician with exact, step by step guidance to follow when carrying out advanced diagnosis of the TPMS. Before you read it, and most especially before you think you or your technician should begin to follow the instructions in this TB, *please be aware that it is assumed that before starting to follow the directions in this TB, the 5 tires on board have all been set to the recommended pressures (as indicated on the sticker on the driver door frame) and the TPMS has been correctly been put through the learning process.*
"Correctly been put through the learning process" means the following:
*1) *All tires and rims are stone cold - in other words, the car has been left parked overnight, and the TPMS process is initiated on the first drive of the day, starting with stone cold tires.
*2)* The tire pressures have been checked first thing in the morning, before going for the learning drive, and all are correct.
*3)* The learning process is carried out by driving the car for about 5 to 8 miles on a highway at a fairly good speed (about 50 to 60 MPH), and this is completed within 30 minutes of initiating the learning process.
99% of the TPMS problems that forum members have reported over the past year can be attributed to one or more of the following causes - all of which are 'basic' issues, and need to be dealt with prior to consulting the attached 'advanced' diagnosis documentation.
*a)* Pressure in one of the tires actually is lower than it should be, due to slow leak, puncture, etc. *FIX:* Restore the problem tire to the correct pressure and the warning will go away without further action needed.
*b)* TPMS was put into learning mode when tires were warm, and the next day, it gives out a warning. *FIX:* Check tire pressures when stone cold, carry out learning process first thing in the morning after the car has sat overnight.
*c)* TPMS was put into learning mode, but car was not driven fast enough or soon enough to complete learning cycle. * FIX:* Tomorrow morning, check pressures, put TPMS into learning mode, drive 5 to 10 miles on a freeway within 30 minutes of putting the system into learning mode. *NOTE:* Put the TPMS into learning mode before you leave your driveway, don't wait till you get to the highway!
*d)* System is configured (coded) to indicate that there are 5 tires present on the vehicle, but the spare tire is either flat or in the shop getting repaired. *FIX:* If the spare is flat, live with the fault message. If the spare is missing, live with the fault message. If you don't want to live with the fault message, have your VW tech recode the system to indicate that there are only 4 tires on board (see this thread for instructions: Tire Pressure Monitoring System - watch 4 tires, or 5? How-to...), then put the system through the learning process first thing tomorrow morning, when the remaining 4 tires and rims are stone cold.
*e)* Tire pressures have changed due to a significant change in outside air temperature (e.g. first really hot day in late spring, first really cold morning in the fall). *FIX:* Correct the pressures (inflate in the fall, deflate in the spring) so that the pressures are once again within specification. The warning should go away without the need to go through a learning process again. If the warning does not go away, put the TPMS through the learning process (again - check the pressures first thing in the morning to make sure they are correct, and initiate the learning process before you leave your driveway on the first trip of the day - 5 to 10 miles of highway driving within 30 minutes of initiating the learning process).
Having said all that - here's the 'advanced diagnosis' TB:
Note that the TB attached below (44-04-06) has been superseded by TB 44 07 02, which was published on March 22, 2007. Although I am leaving the original TB attached below, I recommend you use the new TB in the future - it is attached on the third page of this discussion.


_Modified by PanEuropean at 10:20 PM 3-26-2007_


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## sphynx (Jan 9, 2006)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (mkell)*

Hello Gentlemen,
This is my first post on this forum. I just recently purchased a 2005 Touareg and noticed that it did not bring TPMS. Is it possible to add this feature and what what parts are needed? I understand that if the wiring is not in place, the cost will be exhorbitant, but would like to know if its possible.
Thanks!



_Modified by sphynx at 6:18 PM 1-9-2006_


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

*ALERT*
My dealership's Phaeton tech recently told me the TPMS system would not re-program after a tire rotation and pressure adjustment. He wanted to change the controller to fix the problem. He told me he drove the car 26 miles without any luck.
I told him to let me try it and not to change the controller just yet. I picked up the car the next morning with cold tires, set the cruise control on the highway at 60MPH, and in about 10 miles it was re-programmed. My Phaeton was going to have parts changed because of operator error!
*I cannot overemphasize the need to make sure the tires are cold and get the car running at highway speeds as Michael stated above.* The Phaeton tech that made this mistake does a lot of good work and is well regarded. However, he had an embarrassed look on his face when told a TPMS controller change wasn't required.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (sphynx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sphynx* »_ Is it possible to add this feature and what what parts are needed?

Hi Edwin:
Welcome to the Vortex forums.
My guess is that it would be technically possible to retrofit an OEM tire pressure monitoring system, but it would be economically unattractive. You would probably be looking at a parts bill in excess of $1,500 to get all the bits and pieces that you would need.
A more practical approach might be to investigate an aftermarket TPMS kit. There are a number of companies that make such a kit. One that I know of (this does not imply a recommendation) is SmarTire.
Michael


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (PanEuropean)*

Now if we can figure out how to turn the system off.







Will I get screen burnout/in running winter tires?
Regards, 
Brent


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (W126C)*

Brent:
If you have a diagnostic scan tool, try opening up the J523 Front Information Display and Control Head, go to coding, and change the third digit from the right (the digit in the 'hundreds' position) by deducting 2 from it. Most likely it will be a 3 now, so that means you change the 3 to a 1. That will tell the display unit that TPMS is *NOT *installed in the car, therefore, not to bother displaying information from it.
You may also have to pull the fuse that supplies power to the TPMS, to avoid having the J523 generate an 'improper coding' fault code because it notices the messages coming from the TPMS over the CAN bus.
Michael


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## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_I'm going to experiment. I plan to drive 500 miles at 45 psi, 500 at 37 psi, 500 at 33 psi, 500 at 30 psi, and 500 at 27 psi, and plot milage vs. tire pressure for the V8 phaeton. The 500 miles at 45 psi has already been done. the other 2000 miles i can knock out in about a month, driving the same 150 mile round trip 3 times a week. If I limit the driving to the same closed course, a combination of highway and 3 towns, I can eliminate other variables such as different driving conditions and different seasonal temperatures and wind velocity. I will also need to use the same driving technique from day to day.

I have been reading about the tire pressures in the threads, and, although this was some time ago, did you ever post the results of this mileage vs. PSI experiment, or was there no significant difference? 
We received our car set to 37 PSI all around. I read the sticker on the driver's door, made the recommended adjustments...and then read the right answers on the forum. I'll reset per the recommendations for half load in ROW tonight. I'll also reset the TPMS tomorrow morning, as instructed in this thread. 
Thanks again to all of you for the great work on this forum.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (Jim_CT)*

Hi Jim,
I never posted the results because I wasn't sure anyone was interested. Now I'm not sure were the data is! But the results are roughly as follows:
If the load is light (just the driver in the car), I couldn't tell much difference in milage down to about 37 psi, then I started loosing as much as .5mpg/psi drop - although the results were not really linear.
If the car is really loaded, the drop begins at about 40 psi and is more steep.
Of course, that's for my V8, my Michelin tires, my terrain, climate, etc... You get the idea. Although its interesting for me, I'm not sure it applies to any other Phaeton in any other location. That's why I didn't post it.
I do think there is some room to safely play with tire pressure though. A tire pressure change definitely changes the ride and steering effort.


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## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

Thanks for the response, Robert. I understand the answer is "it depends", but at >37 or >40 psi (light and heavy, respectively) MPG variations were not significant. It's also true we did not buy the car for its high MPG.
Our car has about 700 miles on it now, and we have very little highway driving. We are also fooling around with the systems in the driveway with the car idling, and as a result the MPG is not so good. Our expectation is MPG will improve once we get out at sustained speeds.
BTW - the TPMS reset procedure posted here works fine. I'm pretty sure following the manual for the TPMS reset would have led to a return trip to the dealer.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:* Related discussions - 
 Turn off Tire Pressure Monitoring if you install snow tires without TPM sensors
Tire Pressure Monitoring System - How to turn off warnings if the spare is flat
Tire Pressure Monitoring System - What to do if the system indicates there is a fault present
Tire Pressure Monitoring System - Where are the tire pressure sensors?
....Why are the recommended tire pressures so high on North American Phaetons?
Frequent TPMS Messages
and, if it turns out the warning message is telling you the truth...
How to change a flat tire on a Phaeton


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## hrglas (Jan 4, 2006)

okay, so the sensors are mounted to the inside of the rim. so in order for me to keep this function active for my aftermarket wheels, i will have to mount these sensors inside my new wheels. is this even possible seeing that the inside of the oem rim has a flat spot so the sensor sits flush..............and has anyone else done this.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (hrglas)*

Hi Anthony:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum.
I believe that the design of the sensor is different on the Passat, because the Passat uses a later generation of sensor. I have never seen one, so, I can't help you with the answer to your question. There is a B6 Passat forum here on Vortex, it is possible that there might be a photo of a Passat sensor there. Here's a direct link to that forum: B6 Passat Forum.
Michael


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## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael (and others),
I was looking into offering these with the wheels we sell and had a question on the parts. The valve is universal for all the cars (Phaeton, T-Reg, etc), but there are two different sensors listed for the Phaeton.
One is rated at 433Mhz and the other is 315Mhz. I skimmed through most of the TPMS threads I could find, but didn't find any mention of this.
Any suggestions? Which is used for what? I used a MY04 vehicle as my mule when I called the dealer.
Thanks, ~Rich


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: (OEMpl.us)*

I have successfully used 2004 Audi A8L sensors with no problems. I don't know their frequency but it may be another clue.
Also, my notes show the sensor as part number (4D0 907 275). See this thread: Snow tires and wheels?
Edit: I looked up my Phaeton on Beru's website and it shows the frequency as 433Mhz.
Beru - Volkswagen PHAETON 



_Modified by pretendcto at 1:54 PM 5-9-2006_


----------



## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*Re: (pretendcto)*

Okay, I used the Beru site to determine that all of the Phaeton are 433Mhz. Thanks!


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: (OEMpl.us)*

I need to buy a 2nd set of sensors as I am going to put on summer tires and keep my other wheels for winter use. Anybody have a set of four for sale.


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## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*Re: (Kcmover)*

I have purchased an even dozen for my next shipment from Germany towards the end of this month. Pricing is TBD until next week.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here is a picture of the antenna (mounted in the wheel well, behind the plastic wheel well cover) that monitors the signal coming from the sensor in the wheel. I had to take a wheel well cover off of my car to replace it (it was damaged by an object on the road), and I noticed the antenna there when I had the cover off.

It is interesting to note that the antenna is lined up exactly on the same plane as the sensor itself. There is one of these antennas in each wheel well. The two rear wheel well antennas also share the additional responsibility of monitoring the pressure in the spare tire.

Michael


*Phaeton TPMS antenna*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSAntenna.jpg


----------



## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Did anyone ever figure out how to turn off the TPMS on the NAR Phaeton? I tried to VAG-COM it last winter but without results.
Regards,
Brent


----------



## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (W126C)*


_Quote, originally posted by *W126C* »_Did anyone ever figure out how to turn off the TPMS on the NAR Phaeton? I tried to VAG-COM it last winter but without results.

I'll take that as a NO?








Regards,
Brent


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## V10NRB (Nov 30, 2006)

*Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working*

Hi,
My spare tyre monitoring is not working, I have the option as it monitors the x4 wheels.
The garage tell me that my car was NOT SUPPLIED with spare tyre monitoring....
I have the option, the book says it should work. Were there situations where you did or did not have spare tyre monitoring with your purchase..
cheers
Neil


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*

My understanding of things is that if you have a full size spare tire supplied with the car as factory fitment, then that tire will have a TPMS sensor in it. This only makes sense, because if it didn't have a sensor and you installed it on the car, the system would not work properly.
The easiest way to identify the presence of a sensor (without having to break the bead of the tire) is to closely examine the valve stem. If it is metal and appears to be the same as the other 4 stems, then there will be a pressure sensor on the other side of it. If it is not metal, or does not appear to be the same as the others, then there is not a sensor on the other side of it.
The valve stem that comes with the sensors cannot be installed without a sensor on the other side to retain it. See this post: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design and Function.
Also - a couple of 'this is too obvious to check first' things: *1)* Have you enabled spare tire monitoring via the settings on the big control panel in the front? *2)* Is the TPMS controller coded to monitor 5 tires rather than 4?
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*

Below is a very poor quality picture of a TPMS sensor and valve stem. Note the bolt in the lower middle of the picture - the bolt is what holds the valve stem in place. No sensor (the big thing) - no place to attach the bolt to.
Michael


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## petermueller (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*

When you say "not working" what do you mean? 
My V8 will give the pressure for the fronts and say "OK"
For the rears it will also give the pressure and "OK"
Just checked it on my car- for the spare there is a "*O*"(like a tire laying in the trunk) followed by "OK" but no pressure indicated (I use the same pressure on my spare as my rear tires)

Would think that if you let the air out of the spare you would get a fault reading. Just a thought, I haven't tried it.

_Modified by petermueller at 6:15 AM 1-31-2007_


_Modified by petermueller at 6:17 AM 1-31-2007_


----------



## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*

My screen shows only the four tires on the road. The spare does not show. I have senors in all tires.


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (pirateat50)*

Do remember there is an option to switch off the spare tyre monitor and just have the four on the road surface monitored. This is I guess that if you do have flat you don't want the TPM monitor flashing at you from the dash board when put in the trunk/boot
I run my tyres 2/3lbs over the recommended but set the TPM to the recommended pressures that avoids the issue with temperature fluctuation as with this morning where last night it was 6 degrees and this morning minus 2degrees and frost.

_Modified by pilgrim7777 at 2:35 PM 1-31-2007_


_Modified by pilgrim7777 at 2:36 PM 1-31-2007_


----------



## V10NRB (Nov 30, 2006)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (pilgrim7777)*

Michael et all
I will check the spare this evening to compare with the other wheels.
however, when I switch on the spare monitoring in the console I get a warning error.
The garage has specifically stated that although I have TPMS my car was not supplied with a TPMS spare tyre. This sounds very strange as I would have expected them all to be identical.
Especially as the feature is available on the console
Will hopefulyl get some more info tonight.
many thanks
Neil


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V10NRB* »_The garage has specifically stated that although I have TPMS my car was not supplied with a TPMS spare tyre. This sounds very strange as I would have expected them all to be identical.

Sounds strange to me too. Did you buy the car new or used? It may be possible that the car left Dresden without a full size spare (with an air pump and can of goo), and the previous owner purchased a full size spare on an original rim. This could explain the absence of the TPMS sensor.
If you do find a sensor (or strong evidence suggesting a sensor) on the spare, have the dealer check the coding of the TPMS controller - controller 65 - to see if it is hard-coded to monitor 4 tires or 5. For a MY 2004 European V10 TDI Phaeton, this will be the third digit from the right in the 7 digit controller coding string. If that digit is a 2, it indicates that the vehicle is equipped with a full size spare and the two TPMS antennas in the rear wheel wells are also responsible for looking for and monitoring the spare. If that digit is a 3, it indicates that the vehicle does not carry a full size spare, thus the TPMS will never look for the spare no matter how many buttons you press up on the big screen between the two front seats.
Michael


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*

Have the dealer mount the spare on your car and put the removed wheel in the trunk. Or, borrow a spare that's known to have an operating sensor and throw that in your trunk. That should settle the arguement one way or the other...


----------



## V10NRB (Nov 30, 2006)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (Paldi)*

Hi, Michael & all
Have just spent the last hour checking over my wheels, tyres, everything.
The Spare wheel is NEW and identical to the others.
I found the pressure was only 36psi. So pumped it up to 45psi
I have reset the pressure on the central panel and been for a drive and now all has come back OK.
I now have FIVE wheels being monitored.
I cannot understand HOW a garage can do a service on the car (Dec 2006) plus be told to fix it and then they tell me I do not have TPMS on the spare tyre when all along it was just a low and accurate warning on the spare wheel.
What are we up against here, great car, poor garage...
Many thanks once again
cheers
Neil


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tire pressure monitong - spare tyre not working (V10NRB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V10NRB* »_What are we up against here, great car, poor garage...

Well, to look at it from a more neutral point of view, it might be more accurate to say "great car, garage not yet familiar with it". We drive a rather rare vehicle, hence the need for all of us to have good communication and good personal relationships with the staff at the dealership.
Michael


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*TPMS Failures in cold weather*

It is very cold here in Indy. Why is it that the TPMS has lots of failure warnings in cold weather. This happens when I am in Chicago also.
Other makes also have the same issue, so this is not a Phaeton issue. However, my Toyota Siena AWD with run flat tires does not have this issue or any other TPMS issue. (I bought both cars the same week in March 2004.)
WHat causes these faults in very cold weather? The cold temperature affects sensors andcauses measurements outside of tolerances or is it the sensors themselves in the cold weather?


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_It is very cold here in Indy. Why is it that the TPMS has lots of failure warnings in cold weather. This happens when I am in Chicago also.
Other makes also have the same issue, so this is not a Phaeton issue. However, my Toyota Siena AWD with run flat tires does not have this issue or any other TPMS issue. (I bought both cars the same week in March 2004.)
WHat causes these faults in very cold weather? The cold temperature affects sensors andcauses measurements outside of tolerances or is it the sensors themselves in the cold weather?

There are different types of TPMS systems. The more primitive use the anti-lock sensors to determine differences in rotational speed that indicate one tire is losing pressure. The Sienna uses that system, I believe. Therefore as long as all tires lose pressure at approximately the same rate and all the tires don't fall below a lower preset limit, no warning will be issued.
I suspect that you could eliminate your Phaeton false alarms (if that is in fact what they are) by resetting the TPMS system after leaving your car outside for the night during one of those particularly cold nights. However, Michael is the expert on this subject. I would search for one of his posts on the subject.
One strong thread regarding the TPMS system in the Phaeton is that despite all the supposed reports of problems, it is almost always doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing. Users are either not using it correctly or not believing the (accurate) warnings it displays. In my case it accurately displayed a warning of a 2-3 lb. loss when my tire had such a slow leak that two repair shops couldn't find it. When the tire was finally repaired and filled to the correct pressure, the warnings disappeared. What more could you ask for?


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (car_guy)*

False warings in the cold weather is something that has been discussed on here, and I had dealt with many times with the VW. There has never been any issues or anything wrong with anything when diagnosed. It is not any specific tire. It is just a general warning.
Sometimes the warning appears a few miutes after I start my car in zero degree weather, then after a while, it just goes away. 


_Modified by dzier at 4:44 PM 2-4-2007_


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (dzier)*

The last time I had a "false" TPMS warning in cold weather on my Phaeton was due to the relative drop in tire pressures due to the cooling of the air inside the tires.
As air cools, it gets denser. Since there's a fixed amount of volume in an enclosed space, the relative pressure drops. What I did was fill the tires when it was very cold outside & reset the learning process. This took care of the problem.
As for why this doesn't happen with the Toyota -- well, I guess Toyota has some sooper dooper syste, that's far superior to everything else out there.


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_False warings in the cold weather is something that has been discussed on here, and I had dealt with many times with the VW. There has never been any issues or anything wrong with anything when diagnosed. It is not any specific tire. It is just a general warning.
Sometimes the warning appears a few miutes after I start my car in zero degree weather, then after a while, it just goes away. 

In fact the "false warning" you described here is probably not false. The pressure in the tires probably dropped below the threshold established when you previously set the baseline pressures (put the system in learning mode) when the ambient temperature was higher. If this is the case, this is not a false warning; the pressure in the tire(s) is lower than the pressure it or they were set for.
How did you determine that the warnings were false? Did you actually check the pressures in the tires when you received the warnings? Or did you assume they were false because they went away when the tires warmed up and the pressures increased on their own?
I can't remember anyone on the forum reporting a false warning who has actually checked the pressures. As I recall, it seems that owners get the warning, look at the tires, and determine that the warning is false because no tire is flat or _appears_ to have low pressure. The system is more sensitive than that and warns when a tire is as little as two pounds low. That difference, although important, is usually not visible.
BTW, the fact that the Sienna doesn't issue a warning doesn't indicate it is a superior system, just a less sensitive one. Is that a good thing? I guess it depends on your point of view. Not that this has happened with my Phaeton, but I'd rather get a false positive than a false negative.


_Modified by car_guy at 11:18 PM 2-4-2007_


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## TDIChris (Feb 5, 2007)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (car_guy)*

I believe Phaetons have the same monitors as Mercedes- my parents Benz had this issue...they found that condensation literally froze inside the valve stem (no clue how it got in).


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_It is very cold here in Indy. Why is it that the TPMS has lots of failure warnings in cold weather. This happens when I am in Chicago also.

David:
It works like this: When the temperature drops, the air in the tires shrinks. As a direct result of this, the pressure drops.
If you have any doubts about this, you can conduct this simple experiment: Fill something up with air, seal it, and heat it up. The air will expand, and the 'thing' (whatever it was) will eventually explode.
Tire pressures have dropped in cold weather ever since John Dunlop invented the tire about 150 years ago. The only thing that is new is that we now have fancy TPMS systems to advise us that we need to add more air to the tire to maintain the specified pressure.
So, go add air to your tires.... or, move to Florida.
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

PV=MRT
The V is constant
The R is constant
The M is constant
So P varies with T ( both in absolute values )
Unless you are a more powerfull God than the one that made the rule that is the way it's going to be.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (PanEuropean)*

The warning I get is a general TPMS failure warning. Not any specific tire. The warning clears itself fairly quickly.


----------



## TDIChris (Feb 5, 2007)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_The warning I get is a general TPMS failure warning. Not any specific tire. The warning clears itself fairly quickly. 

So your tire pressure is okay?
I'm guessing it's just the cold...if you take to the dealer, I'd assume they would leave it inside to warm up and test it then.


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (TDIChris)*

Yes, that is what I have said all along. And the warning I get is not a tire pressure warning. It is a system failure warning.


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## TDIChris (Feb 5, 2007)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (dzier)*

Not sure what to tell you..guess you'll have to see what happens when it warms up.
Congrats. on the Super Bowl BTW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Maybe T will increas so P will increase. The other thing you can do to test the SYSTEM is to press the learn new tire spec pressures ( lower left corner of screen ) in the morning and then the new pressure will read out and you can see if the system is working at lease. This will take about a hour after pressing the learn button.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Somehow something is not being communicated well. I don't have to do anything. The warning goes away fairly quickly. At first I used to put in learn mode, and that would fix it. But then after talking to the dealer a few times and just doing nothing, I learned that it clears on its own within a few minutes. This only happens in weather like now (it is 8 degrees at 3pm), but It occurs fairly often if the cars sits, and then I start it. Within a few minutes of driving, the warning goes away. And once again, it is a GENERAL TPMS failure warning. Not a warning that a particular tire has a problem.
WHen I had Phaeton loaners in the past, including a Phaeton loaner when I was up in Chicago, they did the very same thing, with the same warning in cold weather.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_ I don't have to do anything. The warning goes away fairly quickly. But then after talking to the dealer a few times and just doing nothing, I learned that it clears on its own within a few minutes. This only happens in weather like now (it is 8 degrees at 3pm), but It occurs fairly often if the cars sits, and then I start it. Within a few minutes of driving, the warning goes away. And once again, it is a GENERAL TPMS failure warning. Not a warning that a particular tire has a problem.

David,
I would guess the reason why the warning goes away, is the tires are heating up. Thus the air inside the tire expands and puts the pressure back into normal parameters. I have to reset my tire pressures in the winter and no more warnings.
Regards,
Brent


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (dzier)*

I do completely understand. But can do no more to help. Sorry.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (dzier)*

I exercize or "learn" my TPM System every week or two. I think it helps the system cope with falling or rising temps as seasons change. I don't get warnings unless I get a flat.
But I keep getting random messages to check the operation of the rear brake lights, but no codes thrown. Just a bug, I guess. Maybe you got one too?


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## reneestreg (May 25, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
As for why this doesn't happen with the Toyota -- well, I guess Toyota has some sooper dooper syste, that's far superior to everything else out there.

Must be the same sooper dooper system that is put into the Nissans and Mercedes too. I have had no trouble with my Titan or with the SL55. I had to reset the tmps on my Touareg everyday in the winter until I just finally let it win and didn't reset it. I had the dealer mess with it at least 5 times and they never fixed it right either. I put Bentley wheel on the Phaeton and did not have TPMS sensors in the Bentley wheels.


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## reneestreg (May 25, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_
As I recall, it seems that owners get the warning, look at the tires, and determine that the warning is false because no tire is flat or _appears_ to have low pressure. The system is more sensitive than that and warns when a tire is as little as two pounds low. That difference, although important, is usually not visible.
BTW, the fact that the Sienna doesn't issue a warning doesn't indicate it is a superior system, just a less sensitive one. Is that a good thing? I guess it depends on your point of view. Not that this has happened with my Phaeton, but I'd rather get a false positive than a false negative.

_Modified by car_guy at 11:18 PM 2-4-2007_

I would rather only be warned if the tire is rapidly losing pressure. I don't need to have the system tell me "hey your air is less dense or more dense today" seems kind of silly they call it a T(Pressure)MS when it is really measuring density


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (reneestreg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reneestreg* »_I would rather only be warned if the tire is rapidly losing pressure. I don't need to have the system tell me "hey your air is less dense or more dense today" seems kind of silly they call it a T(Pressure)MS when it is really measuring density

Really? You don't want to know if a tire has lost ten pounds of pressure over a period of a month?
And let's clear the cold situation up. If you set the pressures on an 80 deg. day and then you get a warning on a 0 deg. day, you will find that the pressures in the tires measures lower when you check them. They in fact do require additional pressure. The system is doing its job.
I just had a Lincoln Navigator in the shop today with a woman complaining that here system showed a TPMS warning in the morning (about 10 deg. out) and that it just went away on the way over. I measured the pressures in her tires and they all showed 32 lbs. This is the same vehicle we serviced about two weeks ago, on a much warmer day, when I personally adjusted her pressures to 35 lbs. (which her vehicle call for) and set the system. Evidently the cold temperature just reduced the pressure enough to display the warning until they warmed up a bit. I added air to bring them up to 35 lbs. and I suspect her "problem" will be gone.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it? In fact the problem was probably not the system, but that of the people using the system. It seems that most peoples' first thought when they get a warning is that it's false. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?


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## reneestreg (May 25, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_
Really? You don't want to know if a tire has lost ten pounds of pressure over a period of a month?


Well our Touareg was continually telling us we had a flat tire, not losing or low pressure but a flat tire. After no less than 40 "flat tires" and continual resets, the system became "the boy who cried wolf." So when the tire did actually blow out while driving down the highway at 80 MPH we thought it was just another misinterpretation of reality. My wife almost rolled the truck. This is why I have great disappointment with a system that IMO does not do it's job properly.


_Modified by reneestreg at 8:27 PM 2-7-2007_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: TPMS Failures in cold weather (reneestreg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reneestreg* »_Well our Touareg was continually telling us we had a flat tire, not losing or low pressure but a flat tire.

I understand where you're coming from and understanding the naming conventions are key here. What it calls a flat tire and what we call a flat tire are two different things. The system considers a tire "flat" when the pressure has dropped below a certain threshold. Defective Wheel on Board occurs when the difference between two tires on the same axle exceed a certain threshold.


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Said before will say again. The system should measure air mass not air temp. a nickle temp sensor would totally eliminat the problem. I invented and pantened sych a system for the Bendix Corporation in the 70's the Pat is in the public domain now so they couls have it for free. But the Not invented here sysndrom has no vaccine.
When you measure Mass it still report leaks fast or slow just as quickly and completely eliminates other problems. A number of european trucks are now using it. Can't figure what is so hard it's like poring Pi** out of a boot just print the instructions on the sole.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Now that it is a balmy 20 degrees here, the general TPMS Failure does not occur. What worries me about this is that if there was a problem with a tire, the general TPMS failure condition disables the system and provides no warnings or pressures for any tire. 
When the dealer checks out the system there is nothing wrong. Does the system just not work at very low temperatures, so it disables itself? Again, this is not a tire warning, or a flat warning, or anything worng with any specific tire, this is a general TPMS failure warning when it is cold and all tire readings are disabled. 
David


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_What worries me about this is that if there was a problem with a tire, the general TPMS failure condition disables the system and provides no warnings or pressures for any tire.

David:
*That is not true,* so, don't worry about it.
When I came home from Europe last week and got into my Phaeton, some kind of TPMS message appeared - I don't remember exactly what it said, but it was not 'check tire pressures' and it was not 'flat tire'. I guessed that tire pressures had fallen during the month I was away, and that the prevailing cold temperatures (well below freezing) were contributing to the problem. So, I went to the local gas station, inflated the tires to the correct amount (the right rear was 12 PSI below spec), and the warning went away.
Yesterday, I saw a message that said "Check Tire Pressures', and when I pushed the VEHICLE button, I could see that the right rear tire - the one that was 12 PSI low earlier in the week - was the culprit. It had a warning sign beside it, the other 4 tires were listed as 'OK'. I took note of the problem but didn't do anything about it.
This morning, I left my house at 4:00 AM to drive my wife to the airport. As soon as I started the car, I saw a message that said 'Defective Wheel On Board' - but, the VEHICLE display screen didn't specify what wheel it was. Based on my experience of the previous few days, I figured that the right rear wheel was low on pressure, although I couldn't figure out why the message wasn't they same as I had seen yesterday (Check Tire Pressure).
Halfway to the airport, I heard a beep and saw a big red text message in the instrument cluster - 'Flat Tire'. I pulled off the expressway, went to a gas station, and found that the right rear tire - the perennial problem child - was now down to 25 PSI. I guess the tire has a hole in it...
Anyway, I added enough air to bring it back up to spec, and by the time I had finished hanging up the air hose, all the warnings disappeared. I then carried on to the airport. Tomorrow, I'll take the car to the VW dealer to get the hole in the tire found and fixed.
If you have a flat tire, the car will tell you that in plain language - have no doubts about that. Also, if you start to see a whole bunch of tire related messages... well, as many others have pointed out in the past, it's a pretty good bet that one of your tires is losing air.
Michael


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

So, if the system is disabled due to some general TPMS failure, how would it provide any information specific to a tire? I have not had any warnings related to a specific tire in probably 18 months. I just get this this general TPMS failure in extreme cold weather, and the screen indicates that the information showing tire pressures is temparorily not available and shows the hour glass everywhere.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_So, if the system is disabled due to some general TPMS failure, how would it provide any information specific to a tire? I have not had any warnings related to a specific tire in probably 18 months. 

Hi David:
*1)* How do you know it is 'disabled'?
*2)* Is it possible that you have not had a flat tire or a low pressure tire in the last 18 months (except, of course, when it gets cold out)
Michael


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## Highline (Mar 13, 2003)

It might be also that the sensor might stop working if the temperature drops below a certain point. I don't know how the sensor operates or what materials are used on the manufacturing process, but they certanly have to obey to the laws of physic.
Basically if you can't feel your hands even with gloves, it doesn't mean they're gone and need amputation; it simply means that is freaking cold.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

THe message indicates that it is temoprarily disabled and hour glasses appear on on the readings. It is okay for now since 25 degrees F is not cold enough. It only happens typically below 10.


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## Highline (Mar 13, 2003)

^^ Damn.
As for the sensor, I was thinking: If the sensors are wireless, which I think they are, then they'll have their own power source (i.e. batteries) which we all know are effected by the extreme temperatures, especially the low ones.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I had that happen a while ago myself. This one was a flat tire warning, and not these annoying "general TPMS failure" that temorarily causes the system to not show readings.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Highline)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Highline* »_....they'll have their own power source (i.e. batteries) which we all know are effected by the extreme temperatures, especially the low ones. 

It is true that they have batteries, however, the TPMS controller has the ability to look up what the outside air temperature is (via CAN bus), and thus make allowances for voltage drops as a result of low temperatures.
I'm pretty darn sure that behind every unexplained message such as "TPMS System Fault" or "TPMS Warnings Not Available Right Now" there is a solid reason. The problem is that the system is not articulate enough to clearly tell us exactly what the problem is, and this sometimes leaves us guessing. Let me give you an example:
As a result of quite unexpected and pleasant circumstances, I sold my four Michelin all-season tires (the OEM tires) to another person today. One of the four tires that was in storage at my dealer (I have the snows on the car right now) was kind of low on tread - only 5mm - so, rather than giving the buyer this tire, I decided to dismount my spare (from the trunk), give him the new, never used spare, and toss the tire and rim with 5 mm of tread in the trunk as my spare.
It was really cold in Toronto today, -15°C, so I left the engine running while I removed the new, unused spare from the trunk and put the tire and rim with 5mm remaining in its place. I then got in the car, drove about 100 miles, and dropped the four tires (not mounted, in plastic bags in the back seat) off at their destination. I shut the car down and went inside for a coffee.
An hour later, I went back to the car and started it, intending to hit the road for another 2 hours of highway driving. First thing I heard was a 'beep', followed by a message that said "Tire Pressure System Failure" or words to that effect. I was kind of upset, not because of the TPMS fault, but because I had dusted off David Z. a few days ago over this exact thing, and now it was happening to me. But... after thinking about it for a few moments, I realized that the car had not been cycled on and off during the tire swap back in Toronto, therefore its first start-up cycle took place 'just now' - and it didn't recognize the MAC address of the different spare in the trunk. So, I double-checked the pressures on all 5 tires with my gauge - they were all correct - then I initiated a learning cycle. After about 7 miles on the highway, the warning light went out, all the pressures re-appeared on the display, and the system has worked fine for the last 200 miles.
It sure would have been easier if the display had said "There's something wrong with the spare", or "One wheel not recognized", or words to that effect, rather than the cryptic "Tire Pressure System Failure" message we all know. But, it does not do that. I guess that means we have to rely on either our personal experience or what we have learned from others here in the forum to help us figure out what is causing the problem when we see "Tire Pressure System Failure" on the display. Somewhere, there is a reason for that message... it's just a challenge to figure out what it is, that's all.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Attached is a recent update of a TB that I posted on the first page of this discussion a couple of years ago. This updated TB is Phaeton-specific and contains a considerable amount of very useful information about both operation of the TPMS system as well as troubleshooting. Well worth downloading and reading it, even if you are not having problems.
Michael


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
The updated technical bulletin is flawed. The following is what is stated:
Service
• Enter vehicle, close door and switch ON ignition.
• Observe text in MFI and center console display.
• If message does not contain “System fault” or “System learning”, write down tire pressure from center console
display after pressing “Vehicle” and then switch OFF ignition.
• Adjust tire to recommended pressure from tire pressure label.
• Switch ON ignition.
• If TPMS warning light goes out and the “Monitored pressures” value matches tire pressure label, no malfunction
is present and the work is complete.
• The above condition is an intended operation of the vehicle and will not be warrantable.
Service has been able to get the system to reset and no warnings appear. When the cars sits for a while, the warnings come back. The tire pressures are unchanged, and the hour glass appears on all tire readings. This bulletin does not address the issue constantly repeating. If I go to an air pump, remove air and add air, I can get the system to reset and clear the warnings. Then a few hours later, the general failure warning or check tire pressure warning is back, all tire readings display the hour glass, but all tire pressures read manually are fine. 
The problem with this TB is that it does not go forward to check the sensor functioning. Service has repeatedly checked my tires and found nothing wrong with them. But, the bulletin does not address repeat warnings between clearing the system. This has to be a sensor problem, but the TB never gets you there as long as you can clear them. It does not address repeated warnings (daily) when there is nothing wrong with the tires.
Service is implementing the TB exactly as stated, so they will never get to checking the sensors. This seems flawed to me and this is not the problem of my service department, but what they are being told to do. 

ADDED: It never dawned on me to use the Vag COM software to check the funtioning of the system myself. I re-read your explanation of the TPMS system, and then went through your VAG-COM views of the system, and forgot I could check it myself for faults. When I get a chance to do this, I will post the result, or email them to you Michael.
I also called service and talked with them. I indicated that they were following the TB, but I asked, how often do I need to keep coming back before they break out of the TB loop and move onm to see if there are other issues causing repeated problems? A technical advisor from AUburn Hills will be at the dealer today, and they were going to ask them this question. 

_Modified by dzier at 8:36 AM 3-27-2007_


_Modified by dzier at 8:49 AM 3-27-2007_


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (dzier)*

I may have the solution.
I scanned all of the documentation and TBs again. I found a statement in the manual to use the factory valve stem caps, and to not remove them permanently or change them.
Guess what I did.... I bought a set of chromed VW valve stem caps. I put the original caps in a safe place... so safe I cannot find them.
I called my service advisor and asked him to order me a set of Phaeton original valve stem caps. I know they were grayish looking, but honestly, I did not see anything special about them. I will admit the chrome caps do not consistently screw on each valve stem. There may be an issue with pressure build up in the space in the cap that could cause readings to be out of wack?
I have had 2 tires during the last few months with nails, but the system never identified them appropriately because I was getting a general system failure or check tire pressure message and ALL pressures had the yellow hour glass. My tires right now are fine again, but the messages keep coming back. (Originally, I thought this was only occurring in cold weather... but it is 80 now...) I have had 2 tires during the ast few months with nails, but the system never identified them appropriateky because I was getting a general system failure or check tire pressure message and ALL pressures had the yellow hour glass (The air pressure was very low on the last nail but never got a message "flat tire"). My tires right now are fine again, but the messages keep coming back. (Originally, I thought this was cold weather... but it is 80 now...)
I have had 2 tires during the ast few months with nails, but the system never identified them appropriateky because I was getting a general system failure or check tire pressure message and ALL pressures had the yellow hour glass. My tires tight now are fine again, but the messages keep coming back. (Originally, I thought this was cold weather... but it is 80 now...)
Does the valve stem cap seem like a plausible solution? I am running out of ideas, and service goes through the TB and resets system and indicate it is okay. I ran to the dealer on Monday when the message apeared and left the car running so they could actually see the message. (It occurs, and goes away and comes back... it drives me nuts!) 


_Modified by dzier at 8:04 PM 3-28-2007_


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_Does the valve stem cap seem like a plausible solution?

David,
It is entirely possible this is the source of consternation. I have had issues with other customers' vehicles (not necessarily Phaetons) and reinstalling the original caps proved successful at remediation. Also, for people like you and me where there are deicing compounds used, you run the risk of corrosion between the valve stem and metal cap, at which point you have to replace the entire sensor at considerable cost.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_ ...I bought a set of chromed VW valve stem caps. I put the original caps in a safe place... so safe I cannot find them.

Hi David:
It is certainly a plausible hypothesis that metal valve stem caps could create problems, perhaps by degrading in some way the ability of the transmitter at the other end of the valve stem to sent out its signal, or degrading the ability of the antenna in each wheel well to pick up the signal. I can't speak directly to the possible reasons why (out of my field of knowledge), but from a troubleshooting point of view, your idea of replacing the aftermarket metal caps with original ones certainly sounds sensible - it is a low cost, low labour intervention, and it won't be difficult to track the results.
To the best of my knowledge, the light grey (silver) coloured valve stem covers that are OEM fitment on the Phaeton are also used on just about every other VW product that Volkswagen sells. Back in 2004, when I first took delivery of my Phaeton, my VW dealer didn't have any of those OEM valve stem caps in stock, simply because they had been purchasing black colour valve stem caps in bulk from the local supplier who also provided the dealership with consumables for tire service (plugs, tire lubricants, balancing weights, and so forth). When the parts department staff took a closer look at what the service department staff were ordering, they did notice that the black colour caps were not really the best choice for use on Volkswagens that have silver colour alloy wheels, or silver colour hubcaps (wheel covers) - so, after some discussion, it was agreed that the parts specialists at the dealership would take over responsibility for sourcing the valve stem caps. I think that the parts staff order these caps in bulk (lots of 100) through the VW parts system, and the same cap that is used on the Phaeton is now used on every other VW that comes through the dealership.
So, to summarize, it's neither difficult nor expensive for the VW dealer to get the OEM silver colour valve stem caps.
In the meantime, you might want to consider fitting a 'run of the mill' black plastic valve stem cap to all of your wheels. This gets rid of the metal cap, so you can then see if your problem goes away.
A lot of the difficulties that we experience trying to troubleshoot and diagnose TPMS problems stem from the fact that the messages we get from the TPMS controller are not always as clear and easy to understand as we would like them to be. For example, I think there is a comment in that TB that explains that if the pressure different between two tires on the same axle exceeds a certain amount, a "Defective Wheel On Board" message will be displayed. Although there is a certain amount of truth to that statement (the wheel is defective in the sense that it does not have sufficient air in it), the message is not quite as clear and straightforward as it could be.
Such is life. The Phaeton was the first VW product to be equipped with a TPMS system, and the system was designed back in 2000 - 2001. As all of us know from our experience with other consumer electronics systems, the "leading edge" of technology is often the "bleeding edge". There are certain headaches that come with being early adopters. The best solution to these headaches - whether with TPMS, computer operating systems, or cell phone designs - is to try and collect as much information as possible in special interest groups such as ours, and pool that information together.
Thanks very much for reporting your observations and thoughts about the possibility that the metal caps might be a cause of problems - I'm looking forward to hearing your report after you have been using plastic caps for a couple of weeks.
Michael
*PS: *Just a tip - when you switch over to the plastic caps, be sure you also inflate the cold tires to the pressures specified on the driver door B pillar, even if you don't like those pressures. It will eliminate one more variable in the troubleshooting process.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

The part number for the original grey colour plastic valve caps that were installed on the Phaeton in Dresden is *N 908 729 01*. These can be ordered from any VW dealer. I don't know what the price is in North America, here in Europe they cost 30¢ each.
Go big or go home - order 10 of them.








Michael


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

So that must mean there is nothing special about them except they are gray plastic.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dzier)*

Well, the plastic matches the colour of the wheel, the valve cap itself has a rubber O-ring inside it to seal properly against the top of the valve, and the threads on the cap match the threads on the stem.
Other than that, it's basically a plastic valve stem cover.
Michael


----------



## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I'm pretty darn sure that behind every unexplained message such as "TPMS System Fault" or "TPMS Warnings Not Available Right Now" there is a solid reason. 

After my most recent experience, I have to agree with Michael. Here's what happened:
1) Long drive back to Pittsburgh from NY this past Sat, weather sunny and warm (for a change!). 
2) Pick up family, drive to local chuirch to attend a friend's daughter's first communion. Car parked for about an hour. 
3) When I start, beep and message "check tire pressure" (this message is new to me) - hourglass on all five tires in display.
4) Drive to friend's house for reception (about ten minutes). Park car in drive way for about three hours.
5) Turn car on again, drive home (another ten minutes): half way through, system switches to red "flat tire" alert.
6) Park car in garage for the night. The folloiwng morning, check tires: three are a little below minimum specs (i.e. 38 front and 43-44 rear), but one, left rear, is more below: 38. Specs programmed in display (from new) are 42 front and 46 rear. 
7) I inflate all four tires to programmed specs. Tunr engine on, messaeg has changed to "defective wheel on board". I drive car for about ten minutes: system resets automatically, reports all normal.
8) Following morning, whe I start engine, system reports "check pressure spare tire". Sure enough, when I infleted all tires I forgot the spare, which was also below spec. 
9) I inflate spare, then switch on engine: system reports all tires are now fine. 
10) No further problems in 400-mile trip back to NY.
Bottom line: system correctly diagnosed low tire pressure by correctly interpreting the pressure decrease while the tires were cooling off after a long highway trip, but got some of its messages mixed up, and maybe overreacted. The "flat tire" warning was especially interesting, as it happened at night, by which time the weather (and the tires of the parked car) had cooled considerably.
Stefano


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Motorista)*

The TPMS system in the Phaeton is generally truthful and works quite well. As has been discussed before, the problem is that the messages delivered by some of the earlier software versions of the TPMS are not quite as clear and specific as they could be - as a result, folks get confused.

As long as we remember to check all 5 tires, and check them when they are cold - as described in the post above - we should not have any problems. If you have problems that persist after having done that, upgrading to a new TPMS controller with the latest version of the software (version 25) might solve your problem. BUT - and this is a big but - don't go running out to the VW dealer to ask for this new controller unless you are having serious problems with your existing controller. The new controller is programmed with a much narrower range of acceptable pressures, and you might find that you are not able to set pressures at a level that is significantly lower than the sticker on the driver door post.

In other words - this is not one of these situations where 'a newer version is a better version'. It's more a situation where 'the newer version is more fool-proof', but because the newer software assumes that the driver is a fool, it does not give the driver the same discretionary choices that the earlier versions (21, 18, and so forth) did.

Note that the very same controller (version 25), when installed in a ROW Phaeton, will offer a greater range of choices - this is because more TPMS configuration control choices are available via the Front Information Display and Control Head on ROW Phaetons. NAR Phaetons have to comply with the US Government 'TREAD' act, which greatly limits the choices that are available to the driver. This is because the government knows best, not the driver.

Michael


*Location of TPMS Controller*
Just gently pull it straight out - it is a friction-fit








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSControllerLocation.jpg

*Determining Software Version Number*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSSoftwareVersion.jpg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note*
Here is a link to a post that contains the wiring diagram for the TPMS system, in PDF format: Retrofitting tire pressure monitoring (TPMS) to a Phaeton built without it.
Michael


----------



## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Would you please fix photo links when you have the time.
Thank you,
Douglas


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (copernicus0001)*

Photos updated.


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## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: TPMS*

Hello everyone,
here we go again. Two days ago when driving home the flat tyre warning came on. So I stopped and checked all tires. They all locked normal. After arriving at home I checked the tire pressure on all tires and did not find anything wrong. 
After reading the tire pressure label on the B pillar I pressurized the tires to the specified (high) levels and the spare to 44 pounds. 
The next morning I started the learning mode and didn't hear anything from the system for the remainder of the day. 
This morning, one day later, when starting the car I noticed the little tire symbol in the display. I walked around the car, but all tires locked OK. During driving the flat tyre warning was displayed.
After getting to work I took a look at the TPMS section here on the board. 
One thing I was not able to find (at least I didn't see it so far) is how long the batteries will last in the transmitters. Locking at the TPM module pictures it is clear that an option to change the batteries is not provided. 
So here is my question of the day : could the reason for the flat tyre warning be a low battery in one of the transmitters? 
Any other reason why I suddenly get the warning?
And last how much for the repairs on the system, if needed ?

Gernot


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TPMS (heisenberg2000)*

Hello:

I think that the TPMS will give a distinct warning when a battery is low (time expired), but I am not certain of that. The batteries last either 6 or 8 years from date of manufacture... North American cars will begin to encounter battery expiration in mid to late 2009, I think, but not before then.

You mentioned that you checked four tires - did you check the spare? It should be the same pressure as the two tires at the back of the car. The system does not discriminate when giving low pressure warnings, if the spare is low, you will get a low pressure warning.

When you get a "flat tire" warning, press the VEHICLE hard-key, you should then see the problem tire illustrated on the schematic.

Michael










http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/FlatTireSchematicWarning.jpg


----------



## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: TPMS (PanEuropean)*

I stand corrected.
When I looked out of the window just about 10 min. ago guess what?
My driver side tire is flat. I guess it only proves how well the system works.
And its time to buy a new tire pressure Gage.
Gernot


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## Bora_Individual (May 8, 2007)

Can I intall an TPMS to my 2006 jetta? what do I need to do it in the original way, with oem vw parts? does any body know where to find an DIY for it, thanks


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Bora_Individual)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora_Individual* »_Can I intall an TPMS to my 2006 jetta? 

Probably best to ask that question in the Jetta forum. We don't know very much about Jettas here - this is a Phaeton-specific group.
Michael


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## parkbob (Jun 18, 2008)

*tps*

Well after 3 years of suffering with warning lights and 1 flat tire.I finally had it fixed properly.It has been intermittent all this time.This last time after 2 days they explained for the 5th time that nothing was wrong with it.They were going to charger me $90 for a service call.I went nuts and told the service writer he either had to take the car home or call Germany and send down a real mechanic,Driving home, sure enough he finally sees what i have been talking about all this time.Sensors and batteries had to be replaced.
Because it has been going on so long it only cost me under $200 for the batteries.
Thats my story and i am sticking to it.
Bob


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tps (parkbob)*

Hi Bob:
I was unaware that the battery could be replaced on the sensor. To the best of my knowledge, the battery is sealed inside the sensor, and the sensor is replaced as a complete unit.
There are some photos of the sensor at this post: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design, Function, Operation, and Troubleshooting.
Michael


----------



## parkbob (Jun 18, 2008)

*Re: tps (PanEuropean)*

you may be quite right i may of misunderstood what my service writer said.I also misplaced my bill, so i can;t check it.
Bob


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: tps (parkbob)*

If the bill was $200 maybe your tech replaced ONE of the 5 sensors. I know if one single sensor goes low on the battery, the TPMS error shows up in the infotainment and dash screens and it is intermitent, plus the learning cycle can't take place so it doesn't go away. Don't ask me how a tech would know which sensor is running low on battery.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tps (ciscokidinsf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ciscokidinsf* »_Don't ask me how a tech would know which sensor is running low on battery.

I won't ask, I'll tell you how: The technician looks at the measured value blocks portion of the TPMS controller, and from that, he or she can determine exactly how many months of battery life are remaining on each sensor, and also whether an individual sensor is not operating correctly.
Michael


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## parkbob (Jun 18, 2008)

*Re: tps (ciscokidinsf)*

The bill was actually more then $1200,of which I paid $200.Maybe they just charged the cost of the batteries because it has been going on since I own the car.
Where abouts in S.F. do you live?
I just recently moved from Boca to wellington.
My e-mail address is [email protected]
take care,
bob


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: tpms (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Do you think I could get the sensors replaced under the Real Driver Platium warranty? Starting to have to TPMS errors that I am thinking are due to the sensor batteries.
Thanks,
Larry


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tpms (Kcmover)*

If the sensor has reached the end of its life (they contain a 'best before' date that can be read with a diagnostic scan tool), then warranty would probably not cover it because it is a life limited part.
Some extended warranties specifically exclude TPMS.
Best suggestion I can offer is to check the fine print in the warranty for exclusions.
Michael


----------



## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: tps (PanEuropean)*

_"The technician looks at the measured value blocks portion of the TPMS controller, and from that, he or she can determine exactly how many months of battery life are remaining on each sensor"_

Hi Michael,
When they install a new tpms sensor, does the system automatically reset the "months remaining" counter, or must the technician remember to reset it manually?


_Modified by remrem at 2:19 PM 8-25-2008_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tps (remrem)*

The sensor contains a manufacturing date that is retained in the individual sensor, along with the sensor's unique serial number. Nothing needs to be reset by anyone.
Michael


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## samphoebe (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: tps (PanEuropean)*

Am I correct in assuming here that these tpms sensors replacement isn't VW rocket science and other establishments should be able to replace without difficulty.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tps (samphoebe)*

I think that's a fair statement.
When the Phaeton was introduced in 2003, it was the first VW product to have TPMS, and many independent tire service facilities didn't realize that there were sensors inside the wheel (directly opposite the valve). So, a few sensor were sheared off by the bead breaking machine.
Today, with TPMS being mandatory on all vehicles sold in the USA, there is less to be concerned about. It might be wise to advise an independent tire dealer that the car does, in fact, have TPMS, but once you tell them that, I don't think you should have to worry too much. Be aware, though, that parts such as the valve stem and the valve core are unique to the Phaeton wheel, they cannot be replaced with 'generic' parts.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tps (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note: * Appended recent new discussion of TPMS onto the end of this 'master' thread, which is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category)


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## samphoebe (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: tps (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Micheal. As always, your help is much appreciated. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## samphoebe (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: tps (PanEuropean)*

Now things are making sense. In March I had new tires installed on my car and that is about when my problems with tpms started. The tire installer put on a new tpms valve service kit that most likely isn't Phaeton specific (my receipt doesn't specify) at that time. Could this possibly be what the issue has been all along?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: tps (samphoebe)*

Was it a VW dealer that did the tire service? If so, it is unlikely that they screwed up, because TPMS has been around for at least 3 years on Touaregs and Phaetons, and by now, everyone should know how things work. But, there are now different versions of sensors for different VWs, so anything is possible...
If the tires were not serviced by a VW dealer, the risk of installing the wrong part increases. There are different standards, different sensors, and different frequencies used by different vehicles.
There is also the possibility that a sensor may have been damaged during the service process, if that included mounting and dismounting tires.
Michael


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## davofanmail (Aug 26, 2008)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (PanEuropean)*

Just bought a Phaeton, seems like every one I test drove had the TPMS failure modes described here.
Mine, too. I just replaced one tire sensor for $190 parts and $130 labor (grrr). Now the computer says the main module and another tire sensor need to be replaced. This will amount to another $1300
Anybody know if there's a way to completely disable the TPMS in the 2004 US V8 model (manufactured Sept 2003)? Lots of posts in the vortex suggest it can be done, but I tried a couple of the codes and they were rejected by the computer.
I'm running software version 21 with the 3DO907273C module/sw.
The original coding for module 65 is 11204, which matches codes I've found here...
Help?


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (davofanmail)*


_Quote, originally posted by *davofanmail* »_Anybody know if there's a way to completely disable the TPMS in the 2004 US V8 model (manufactured Sept 2003)? Lots of posts in the vortex suggest it can be done, but I tried a couple of the codes and they were rejected by the computer.

David,
I answered this in another thread for you.


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## efk141 (Sep 9, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

To Michael, you seem to know almost everything about our Phaetons. I wrote before about the wire bundle in my trunk and I would like to report that all was fixed by the VW dealer, compliments of both VWA and the dealer. I am so grateful that they took care of everything (new rear window and the wire bundle that broke the window). Since then, I constantly have the message FLAT TYRE! ! ! It always turns out to be the left rear, but after riding a little, the notice goes off and everything goes black from the red warning. I would like to know if I just need a new sensor on that wheel. Do you think the dealer would change just one, since reports that I have read here say they should last up to 8 years? Also, since I know it costs about $20, what do you think the install charges would be? Any help would be appreciated. Eileen


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (efk141)*

Hi Eileen:
Perhaps try two things first, to see if you can solve the problem without replacing the sensor.
First, lift up the floor in the trunk and rotate the spare tire so that the valve stem for the spare is at the forward-most position (the 12 o'clock position as you view the spare when standing behind the car). This improves the odds that the antennas in the rear wheel well will pick up the signal from the spare.
Second, double-check the inflation pressures in all three of the rear tires. They should be at the value specified on the sticker that you can find on the driver door post (just to your right, after you open the driver door).
The sensors are not $20 - I wish they were - the actual price is about $100 each. But, the sensors are generally pretty trouble free. The system is not trouble-free, it has its little quirks, but the sensors generally don't fail.
Let us know if these actions solve the problem.
Michael


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## davofanmail (Aug 26, 2008)

*Re: (efk141)*

Hi Eileen,
I have a 2004 US Phaeton, and have had two sensor failures this year. I think their batteries wear out after 5 years or so (my car was made in Sept 03).
The US list price of the sensors and required valve stems is $190 or so n ow.
Since the early TPMS computers also have lots of problems, fixing the system is well over $1000 so I hope you have an extended warranty.
The good news is that through putting special codes into the display computer on the dashboard, you can make all these problems go away. Of course, you'll have to actually measure your tire pressure manually, but a $20 gauge at the auto parts store does just fine for that.


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## Chuckdoc (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: (davofanmail)*

What are these Special Codes you speak of?
or are you referring to the Vag Com ?


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (Chuckdoc)*

Just bought this set of sensors, to be installed in the new rims I ordered for my winter tyres. Hope they'll work in the Phaeton (but even if they don't, I won't have lost much...):
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAP...80500
P.


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## efk141 (Sep 9, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hello, again, Michael. I just completed your suggestion and I also reset the tire pressure system (it is in the learning mode). If this does not stop the problem, I will try the next suggestion down the list. Of course, I realize that I would be disconnecting the TPMS (i.e., if the gentleman gives me the correct coding), and I will have to monitor the tires manually. Hopefully, your suggestion will take care of it. Thanks. Eileen


----------



## davofanmail (Aug 26, 2008)

*Re: (Chuckdoc)*

Yes, the codes I was talking about are VAG-COM.
There's lots of postings here about how to command the TPMS computer directly, but on my car this had no effect.
The strategy that did work was commanding the dashboard display computer...here's the reference
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...74930


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (mkell)*

Just for the record, here are the correct codes for the North American TPMS controllers.
*For controllers with software 018 and 021:*
10204 for the V8 engine
10224 for the W12 engine
*For controllers with software 025 (suffix D on part number):*
210204 for the V8 engine
210224 for the W12 engine
The numbers are right justified in every case.
VW of America TB (Technical Bulletin) 44-06-07 (2010622 in the new numbering system) confirms this.
Michael


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Replacement sensors*

Was talking with a friend who has an Audi A8 and he said when his sensors went bad he replaced them with OEM clone sensor that is working just fine from a company called Schraeder Bridgeport. 
Sure enough I went to the Schraeder web site and they do list a replacement for the tpms sensor. Not sure I want to try it but the cost is reasonable about 25.00 each. The Schraeder page is 

http://www.schrader-bridgeport...x.cfm

2004 Volkswagen Phaeton V-8 4.2 L
Application Product Type Part # Comments 
Electrical System 

Tire Pressure Monitoring System 

TPMS Service Pack; W/43mm Silver Insert 
TPMS Service Pack 20037 (62 in-lbs, 7 N.m) 
TPMS Service Pack; W/48mm Green Insert 
TPMS Service Pack 20038 (62 in-lbs, 7 N.m) 
TPMS Service Pack; W/49mm Black Insert 
TPMS Service Pack 20039 (62 in-lbs, 7 N.m) 
TPMS Service Pack; W/51mm Orange Insert 
TPMS Service Pack 20040 (62 in-lbs, 7 N.m) 
20017 service pack for Volkswagen with Siemens sensor









Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems (TPMS)
Schrader is the technological leader in TPMS with the original equipment vehicle manufacturers.
Schrader offers replacement sensors, service packs, tools and retro-fit kits for the replacement market.
Schrader offers a variety of replacement products including tire valves, valve cores and AirAware brand tire pressure monitoring system componenets


_Modified by Kcmover at 8:27 PM 9-1-2008_


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Replacement sensors (Kcmover)*

Where did you find the pricing info on the Schraeder web site? I couldn't find it.
Steven


----------



## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: Replacement sensors (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_Where did you find the pricing info on the Schraeder web site? I couldn't find it.
Steven

Ditto, where did you find the pricing on their website? I searched that site and could not locate pricing..
Thanks!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## paddyh (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: Replacement sensors (VWGlf00GL)*

20037 looks like just the valve replacement kit - not the sensor. I found it here for about $21.50
http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-SB-20037.html
Patrick


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Replacement sensors (car_guy)*

Doing a google search. I will have to find a distributor locally and price. But you might try a major tire or Auto parts chain


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*1 sensor appears to be faulty*

For about a month I've had various tire pressure warnings and they have appeared to be caused by the sensor in the passenger front tire. I recently had the tires rotated and the problem stayed with the same tire which is now on the passenger back tire. All tires read OK most of the time. The pattern now is that I can start my car, drive out of my neighborhood with everything fine, but when I hit the main road and accelerate to about 50 mph I get a 'FLAT TYRE' warning for that right rear tire. It comes and goes for a minute or so, then everything remains fine, I think it's even registered all tires as o.k. for the rest of the day sometimes, other times it will chime again when I reach ~50 mph.
My question, does this just sound like a faulty sensor? I'm surprised that it's not smart enough to register a 'System Fault' since the warnings are chiming on and off quickly at times.
With this intermittent issue, would the VAGCOM be able to tell me anything? I'm thinking of just buying one new sensor soon. If I buy a new sensor for one tire and have it installed, do I need to reprogram the car to read it correctly?
Thanks for any responses.
Robert


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: 1 sensor appears to be faulty (rscharf)*

*Archival Note:*
See also the discussion of TMPS troubleshooting difficulties at these threads: 
TPMS Troubleshooting and Problem Solving Difficulties
Troubleshooting Tire Pressure Monitoring System faults.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 10:58 AM 8-6-2009_


----------



## japoipnoi (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*








Is there an adhesive that will go on back of the TPMS sensor and the wheel?


----------



## AudianerA6 (Sep 19, 2007)

*New TMPsensors compatible with 2004 model?*

Are the 2007-09 TPMsensors compatible with 2004 model car(build03)?
VW is offering two typs of TMPsensors for Phaeton prior 2007 and after 2007.
I need to replace my old sensors because the batteries are dead.
Thanks


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: New TMPsensors compatible with 2004 model? (AudianerA6)*

Hello:
No, the pre and post 2007 sensors are entirely different and are not interchangeable.
Michael


----------



## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Based on the information in this thread:
"_The sensors are quite small, about 6 cm (2 ½ inches) long, and remarkably lightweight, considering that they have a battery inside that is designed to last 8 years._
It's the following analysis correct ?
- When the sensor is new, the value in the system (read through VAG-COM) will be *96 months (8 years)*
- But the Real battery life for the sensor is *6 years only (72 months)* (*)
- There is a *24 (96 minus 72) months gap on the battery life* measurement in the system
- Meaning when the sensors gets to a *value of 24 the real battery life is 0 months*, and the sensor needs to be changed ?
What are your thoughts ?, thanks
(*): Old sensors had a battery life of 6 years, new ones have 10 years  _*Says who?* Please provide some substantiation for this statement. Michael_


_Modified by PanEuropean at 11:03 AM 8-6-2009_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brosen)*

To the best of my knowledge, the sensors are designed to last between 6 and 8 years. I don't know exactly what the lifetime of the sensor is.
The service schedule for the Phaeton (found in the front part of the owner manual) states that sensors should be replaced after 6 years in service. 
With the exception of several posts that you have made, I have never heard of sensors having a 10 year service life. I think it is unlikely that they would last that long.
If I had to 'bet the rent money' on sensor life, I would guess that it is somewhere between 6 years (72 months) and 8 years (96 months), with 6 years being the more probable of the two guesses.
The display of remaining sensor life, as shown in the measured value blocks for the TPMS controller, is far simpler than you have described it. The sensor leaves the manufacturing facility (manufacturing facility of the sensor, not the Volkswagen vehicle) with the display set to whatever the foreseen life is - 72 months or 96 months. It then counts down from there each month. When it displays 0, it's foreseen life has come to an end. Please don't try to present it as more complicated than that.
Michael


----------



## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (brosen)*

*UPDATE:*
Today I checked with my new VAG Wireless Bluetooth/Palm Tungsten TX solution the remaining battery life on my new set of *VW OEM TPMS Sensors*, for all the 5 tires (including Spare) the value was *95 Months*, that's almost 8 years.
Based on information provided by the dealer the new generation of TPMS sensors come with a *10 year battery life*, we will see, I do not think I will have the car 10 more years to actually see it








_NOTE: I can confirm the new sensors are Orange color, exactly the same as the TireRack Sensors, the only difference is price and the VW logo on top of them._


_Modified by brosen at 2:02 PM 8-15-2009_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brosen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brosen* »_Today I checked ... the remaining battery life on my new set of *VW OEM TPMS Sensors*, ... the value was *95 Months*, that's almost 8 years.

To me, that implies that the sensors are manufactured with an 8 year (96 month) life. It seems more likely that one month has elapsed between sensor manufacture and delivery to your dealer than 25 months.
Michael


----------



## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (PanEuropean)*

This might be a stupid question, but I just want to be sure, if I add more air to the tires the TPMS system will not complain right ?, it will always give a warning if pressure goes down, not up, correct ?, thanks and sorry for the basic question










_Modified by brosen at 12:04 PM 8-18-2009_


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

After reading all the issues and problems with the TPMS setup and configuration, I was ready to do my first TPMS setup of new PSI values today morning.
I as expecting a very complicated and long process, to my surprise, after setting up the pressures (early morning and cold tires) and driving into the highway for 5 min, the learning process finished successfully with no problem at all, pretty straight forward.


----------



## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

*Re: (brosen)*

You know...I think that most of the problems with the TPMS is due to user error even when the dealer does it. I've never had a problem and I'm nearing the end of my sensors' life expectancy. We'll see how long they last.
Damon


----------



## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (brosen)*

My car has complained when the air pressure was too high (around 50 psi one time).


----------



## forsicht-phaeton (Oct 2, 2009)

This site is awesome -- thank you so much!TPMS fault message came on within 30 miles after leaving the dealership in Pittsburgh a month ago. Since, upon manual inspection, everything was fine, I left it at that, deciding to have it checked when I had time to bring the car into the shop for warranty service. However, after reading the TPMS threads on this site, I did two things: moved the spare so the valve is pointing straight forward, and ran the reset with cold tires, then driving ~15 highway miles. That solved it: It's been error-free now for the past 1200 miles.
Fred


_Modified by forsicht-phaeton at 5:57 AM 10-11-2009_


----------



## Fay-uh-ton (Sep 27, 2007)

*(MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather*

Michael, this is directed at you because you are Phae-tastic but know there might be others with great knowledge/experience in this area too, i.e. Chris.
Ok, so I've had my 04 in the shop countless times over the past few months trying to resolve issues with regards to the TMPS readings with no avail as of yet.
Issue:
I'm getting the message on the screen when the tire pressure is not correct and the screen shows no reading for the back two tires.
I've had all of the TMPS's replaced and the issue remains however when I first got it back I pressed the rest button to recalibrate and it came up on the info screen that all tires were "OK" but on the dashboard it showed the tire with the circle and line through it, and beeped of course.
I reset it again and it went back to the same error, the back two tires show blank.
The VW dealer has run many diagnostics with no clue where to turn to now. They've used the external tool to test for readings, they've changed the module. They also don't get any faults when they hook it up to the "machine".
After dropping off again today I spoke with the service rep who said she had 2 other phaeton's come in today with the same issue. This proves I'm not crazy and that I'm not sabotaging my own car.
I'm hoping that with the other cars there might help to lead to a repair for us all.
If anyone has any insights or guidance I would appreciate you calling the dealership.
Bernardsville VW (it is in NJ)- 908-766-1600 to let them know what to do.
As a note - I have aftermarket wheels on and the dealership doesn't have a machine large enough to handle these wheels so they can't take the wheels apart but I know they were replaced, pre-new tires, less than a year ago and I don't think both back tires would go bad in a year.
Thanks all,
Sean


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (Fay-uh-ton)*

Hi Sean:
A couple of questions:
*1)* What tire size you are using?
*2)* What material are the aftermarket wheels made of? Are they chromed?
Michael


----------



## Fay-uh-ton (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

Hello Michael,
Thanks for the reply.
I have 20' wheels, HR is the brand. They are 3 piece aluminum and 1 half of the rim/band is chromed, the lip that is exposed.
They have worked on these wheels for 3/4 of a year with no issues and then it just started to happen.
Let me know if you have any other qualifying questions in helping to diagnose this issue.
Regards,
Sean


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (Fay-uh-ton)*

Hi Sean:
Wow, your problem is not unusual, but it is kind of challenging.
Some background information:
*1)* The TPMS installed in the 2003 - 2007 Phaetons is a pretty competent and pretty reliable system, but it does suffer from what could be called a "speech impediment". In other words, when it does announce that something is wrong, it is generally correct (truthful), but it doesn't do a good job of articulating exactly what is wrong. This means that the owner or technician has to guess where the problem is.
We have had lots and lots of reports over the years of the TPMS saying 'system defect' or 'problem' (or words to that effect), and the owner tearing their hair out, only to discover later on that the car had a tire with a slow leak, or one of the tires had the wrong pressure set, etc.
*2)* You have unusual tires and rims. This _might _be causing problems, because the transmitter RF output _might _be blocked by the chrome finish during part of the wheel rotation, or because the graphic map of pressure rise in your tires _might _be different because of the off-spec tire size. Then again, this might just be a red herring. Keep an open mind about this possible variable.
so....
Here's how I suggest you proceed.
*a)* Inflate all the tires (spare included) to the pressures specified on the driver door B pillar. It doesn't matter if the specified pressures are not what you want to run, just DO IT, that will eliminate a variable.
Be sure to carry out this inflation when the tires are cold, using a high quality tire gauges See the post Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design, system description and adjustment instructions (includes TBs related to TPMS troubleshooting), and read and follow the instructions there like they were Gospel. Remember, we are trying to eliminate variables.
*b)* Rotate the spare in the trunk so that the valve is in the center, forward-most position. Don't have a spare because a 20 inch wheel doesn't fit in the trunk? See this post: Tire Pressure Monitoring System - watch 4 tires, or 5? How-to.... If you do carry a spare, make sure it is inflated to the higher of the two axle pressures (front or rear as the case may be).
*c) *Check that the coding of the TPMS controller matches the software revision status of the controller. There is a post somewhere around here that explains this - bottom line is that the coding changed with the most recent revision of the part. Investigate this thoroughly. Note that you will need to modify the coding if you don't carry a spare.
*d) *Watch your tire pressures (using the gauge) like a hawk, to rule out the possibility of a slow leak. There is a very high probability that you do have a slow leak, especially if the system worked fine for 6 months but is getting cranky now. Remember what I said about 'speech difficulties' - the TPMS works, but doesn't express itself as clearly as it really should.
Let me know what the results of that exercise are. Remember, fill the five tires to the door sticker specification (whether you like it or not), follow the instructions for filling tires and 'adapting' the system to the letter, and watch the pressures yourself with the gauge (being sure to measure at the same ambient conditions each day, i.e. first thing in the morning, when all the tires are cold and the OAT is more or less the same day to day).
We'll pick it up from there once you have a week or so of history doing the above.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

I can't find the post that discusses the change in coding for TPMS controllers arising from the part number suffix increment (move upwards to software 25 in the controller), but, here's the TB. You can determine what software is in your controller just by sliding it out from where it resides under the rear relay panel (above the left battery) and reading the software version off the label. These controllers cannot be flash-updated, so, whatever software version number you see on the label is what the software inside it is.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

Here's where to find the controller:









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSControllerLocation.jpg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

Here's how to read the software version (if you don't have a diagnostic scan tool):









http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSSoftwareVersion.jpg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (Fay-uh-ton)*

If you *DO *have a diagnostic scan tool, here's a handy sheet to help you interpret the fault codes. Some of these codes may also be displayed in text format in the instrument cluster.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

And, not to take anything for granted, here are the instructions from the owner manual (that book in the glove compartment that no-one ever reads):


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

More fault codes, but this document was published in 2007, and the document two posts up was published in 2003. So, if you are running a TPMS controller with software version 25, probably better to refer to the document below.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

Finally:
Sean, do you mind if I append this discussion onto the end of the existing omnibus discussion of TPMS, which is here: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design, Function, Operation, and Troubleshooting?
That would enable me to keep all related discussion together in one post.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Where are the actual tire pressure sensors? (mkell)*

*Archival Note: * Related discussion (I might merge it onto the end of this post in the near future):
(MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather
Previous discussions of TPMS troubleshooting:
....TPMS Troubleshooting and Problem Solving Difficulties (Additional TPMS troubleshooting discussion)
....Troubleshooting Tire Pressure Monitoring System faults (Still more TPMS troubleshooting discussion)
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

Sean:
See also these previous discussions of TPMS troubleshooting:
....TPMS Troubleshooting and Problem Solving Difficulties (Additional TPMS troubleshooting discussion)
....Troubleshooting Tire Pressure Monitoring System faults (Still more TPMS troubleshooting discussion)
Once you read through them, you will likely realize that everything you have encountered has been previously encountered by others, and there is a solution to the problem.
Michael


----------



## Fay-uh-ton (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (Fay-uh-ton)*

Michael,
Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into this.
My plan is to print this entire topic and take it into the VW dealership. I'm sure they are looking for any guidance they can get too.
I don't mind you attaching as I hope it could help other to mitigate issues they may face int the future.
I'll keep you posted to what the dealership tells me when all is resolved.
With much appreciation. 
(I wish you live closer so I could buy you a







or














or even





















.

Sean


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## Fay-uh-ton (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (Fay-uh-ton)*

Oh, and buy the way.
I too have an 04 Luna Blue with all the toys and an 08 A4 (wife drives - manual six speed. She like to play race driver)
Great minds think alike.


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## KCPhaetonTech (Aug 17, 2008)

*Re: (MIKE a little help please) TPMS - errors - not due to change in weather (PanEuropean)*

GREAT NEWS!!! I used the new TMPS tool BRT-DBL4 today and it works great. It is a handheld system supplied to the dealers that gives a ton more information almost instantly and the sensor does *not* have to be installed. I have 2 relatively new sensors that I tested (not installed) and displayed the following information:









http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u356/simm0136/IMG00005-20091124-1444.jpg









http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u356/simm0136/IMG00008-20091124-1448.jpg


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## kgclark75 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Fixed!*

I just wanted to update everyone on my TPMS problems and let you know that there is hope!
I've had TPMS problems since the day I bought my car 3 years ago. Nearly every day I would be accosted by the annoying fault messages that many of you are familiar with. Sometime these warnings would come right away, other times it would take a few miles. I properly calibrated time and time again and took it to the dealer at least 6 times until I finally resigned myself to the fact that it couldn't be fixed.
Frustrated with the service at my dealer (about the TPMS and other issues), I took it to the only other VW service center in town. They replaced 4 TPMS sensors (but not the spare sensor) and it's now been almost two months without a single fault! Best of all, my extended warranty covered the replacement (less the $100 deductible). 
I don't think that mine was necessarily a battery issue since it's been happening since the car was 2 years old. I'm also not convinced that they really needed to replace all four sensors. With enough trial and error testing, I'd bet that the problem could have been isolated to one or two of them. Whatever the problem, I'm very happy to be able to drive in peace, without having to look at the formerly ever-present warning light.


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*New Sensors (tirerack.com)*

Just wanted to post some updated information. I purchased new TPMS sensors from http://www.tirerack.com last week. They don't list them on their website so you have to call and talk with their customer service. They carry the same brand that originally came on the Phaeton so essentially they are OEM. 
BERU 43MM Long Valve Stem - 8 US$ / stem
BERU 433MHz Sensor - 88 US$ / sensor
With shipping, tax etc. the total for 4 was 391 US$.
Here are the photos:

















































Hope that helps someone else that is searching for recent information.
Best Regards,
Nate


_Modified by ruddyone at 11:01 AM 1-1-2010_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: New Sensors (ruddyone)*

Nate, thanks very much for posting the information and photos above - that was very thoughtful of you. I need to order a new set of sensors for my summer wheels - you saved me a lot of time and trouble doing the research.
Michael


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## sjglaser (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks for all the posts of TPMS. Some observations on aspects of TPMS I have learned along the way. I like to keep my tires inflated to the pressure on the tag on the door (39/45), and when doing so, and go through the process of "re-educating" the sensors, invariably I get the infamous yellow hour glasses informing me that it is unable to set the TPMS and the display states that the front are 43 psi and the rear 52 psi. So rather than fool around with letting air out of the tires, I simply go through 3 or four cycles and it finally resets, but when it does it reads that the tires are inflated 3-5 psi higher than their actual pressure. Is this common?
Also, thank you Nate. At least I know the deal when the time comes to replace them.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (sjglaser)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sjglaser* »_...when it does it reads that the tires are inflated 3-5 psi higher than their actual pressure. Is this common?

Yes, because it is displaying the differential pressure after completion of the adaptation cycle, which implies after the tires have warmed up a bit. As the tires warm up, differential pressure increases.
The only pressure that really matters is what you measure with a quality gauge at the valve stem. In other words, your car could tell you that the pressures were 300 PSI (or 20 bars), no problem, because the car would give you an alert when the pressure dropped to 295 PSI (or 19.7 bars).








Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Fall is in the air*

It's that time of year again!
This morning I received a low tire pressure warning. Just like clockwork, every fall the tires appear to lose pressure. Not really, but it is a good time to double check and top them off if necessary.


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## hfa5649 (Apr 1, 2004)

Just curious how old your Phaeton was when you had your TPMS replaced via the extended warranty? I have the VW Platinum warranty and was told after 5 years, it is considered "wear and tear" and therefore not covered?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

With thanks to Larry from KC, here are some pictures of the replacement tire pressure sensors that can be purchased from "The Tire Rack".

Michael


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

*An ongoing saga with VW in Malaga and some TPMS madness - can someone advise?*

HI everyone. I have read through this thread with interest and wanted to share my recent and ongoing experience with my 2004 V10 and a dealership in Malaga Spain. 

Recently I had a small accident where another car ran into mine. I got out, expecting the worst because it had "felt" hard. I looked at the other car quickly, a SEAT IBIZA, front bumper hanging off, radiator grill bashed in and left headlight smashed. I took a gulp and looked at my car and...

couldn't really see anything! I thought to myself, I know it's tough, but this tough? 

On closer inspection I saw that the Ibiza had hit my right rear wheel, almost perfectly hitting it and not damaging the rest of the car hardly at all. 

We exchanged info and off we went. The next day the TPMS indicated low pressure in the wheel that had been hit. That seemed logical and I inspected the wheel but could see no problem. I went to a petrol station and the tire had dropped from 2.9 where it usually is to 2.5. I filled it with air and when I moved off the error message disappeared. 

I arranged an appointment but VW could only take it in few weeks later. During that period I had a constant repetition of drive around for a few days, TPMS lights up. I stop at a service station fill it with air and the error goes away for a few days. Clearly the wheel is losing air. But as I have to have some body work done as well I thought it best to get it all done at once under the insurance because of the accident. 

I took the car in for them to get it checked and also for the insurance companies to sort out the inspection etc. 

The next day they say they have to send the wheel rim away for repair and it will take a week. No problem I said, but please ensure you also check the tire as it is leaking. 

Ten days later they call me and tell me all is well. I pick up the car and drive out of the workshop. BEEP! TPMS comes on. I phone them from the car. They assure me they had checked everything and all was well, maybe I had to reset the system. As I had just started the car I put it in learning mode and cracked on up to the motorway. 

The learning process finsihed with a loud beep and defective wheel on board, Flat Tire the works. I stop at a service station. Tire pressure? 1.8!! They had given me my car back with the wheel at nearly HALF its pressure!

I filled it with air and turned back. Now the message did not go away either. The icon for pressure problems remained on. 

They took the car back and now the nightmare of bad service begins. They said they would check it for me and come back to me. This was December 20th. December 28th they say that they can not fix the tire or even look at it as they are not authorised to repair that by the insurance company. The insurance report, the man tells, said that any loss of air pressure was not down to the accident. Hell of a coincidence. 

I speak to the insurance and they tell me that they will clear it up and auhtorise everything. This is the 28th right? Well I was away for a few days over Christmas and the NEw year. I phone on January 5th - as I have no news from them - and the dealership tells me that they have done nothing as they are not authorised to. That repairing the TPMS sensors and control module is not a result of the accident. ???? 

Confused I go and see them. They say that the wheel is not necessarily losing pressure, but that there may be a problem with the sensors and that is not due to the accident as the "sensors are not even in the wheels, they are in the body of the car". 

I ask them why they delivered the car to me as though it was repaired and they told me they "thgouth" someone had told me they hadn't corrected the tire sensor error. So now we are faced with plain lies, it appears!

I ask them there and then to check the tire pressure. 1.6. THey had not looked at it at all! So, I say, that tire is practically flat. Can you get it fixed. A little sheepishly they get to work and say they'll have the car ready the next day. 

So here we are on January 12th and they have still not given me the car. Now they say that they are unable to cancel the error message. They told me today on the phone that all four tires are showing the hour glass and that the system is unable to communicate with the sensors in any way. 

Once again they tell me this is nothign to do with the accident that they can not be held responsible for any damage to the control module or the sensors as they are not affected by working on the wheel rim or the tire. They further tell me they are awaiting information from VW Spain as to how to reset the control module but that it is going to cost me to have them do this. 

To my mind what has happened is this. On the first trip to the workshop they removed the wheel, deflated the tire and sent the wheel to Madrid for repair. I think in this operation they have damaged something. Is this possible? The thread here seems to suggest this is possible. I think since then they have tried to cover their a** by suggesting it's a non accident fault. 


If they have damaged the sensor would this explain why they can not cancel the error even with the correct pressure? Or do you think it is the typical lack of experience with a Phaeton and I have to do a cold reset at around 60mph? 

Any thoughts and help would be appreciated as I have to see them tomorrow and want to have the facts at my disposal. They see very few Phaetons and I don't want to pay for their mistakes. 

Thanks,

Iain


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Attached is a recent (May of 2011) VW "Tech Tip" that explains how to code the TPMS.

Different software versions of the TPMS controllers require different coding in order to function properly. All of the coding possibilities for the Phaeton are included in this document.

I don't know what the 'G' means after the reference to software version 26 (i.e. "26-G"). My W12 Phaeton has a version 26 controller, and the coding shown for version 26, and it works just fine. If anyone ever sees a 'G' appearing after the software version in a VAG-COM or VAS 5051 /5052 scan, please let me know - I am curious to know if there is an additional software version known as '26-G'.

Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello everybody! It’s been a while:

Michael, is there an easy way for you to re-host the documents in posts #158 through post #163? Or, if they have they been relocated to one of the appended/merged discussions could you please direct me to it? I have been searching, but am having trouble finding them. Thanks.

The reason I'm looking is because when I purchased my car 3 and a half years ago, the sensors were missing from the 4 mounted wheels, so I had brand new ones installed. I did not put a new one in the spare, because it still had the original and it had plenty of life left. Happily, ever since then my TPMS system has worked just fine - until this past month.

First, be aware that I am obsessive about keeping my tires (mounted on original 18" wheels) properly inflated, and I generally run with 43 lbs. all around, including the spare, so there is no pressure differential issue here. I live in Florida so no seasonal temperature drop issue here either  Also, I have checked for leaks including the spare and none are leaking. Note: I do not own a VAG-COM.

About a month ago the system began displaying the TPMS error symbol in the small screen, and the big screen looks like this (sorry for the glare in the shot, but you can see all the relevant info):












Also, here is photo of my TPMS controller:











Anyway, at first I would simply enter the learning mode and recalibrate, and that would fix the problem, but a day or two later it would recur. So, I took the car to the shop and my tech informed me that the battery in the spare had died. This news did not surprise me, since the car is now 6 and a half years old, and I considered myself lucky it had lasted this long. I had him replace the sensor in the spare with a new one.

When I picked up the car he said the new sensor in the spare was working fine, but he informed me that the system was still throwing a fault. He said that the scan was now telling him that the right rear sensor was showing only 16 months of life left, while the other 3 mounted wheels were showing 25 months. This made no sense to me, since all 4 of the mounted wheel sensors were purchased and installed at the same time. He agreed and said he thought that when he scanned the car before he replaced the sensor in the spare, that the other 4 sensors had all been reading the same 25 months. His conclusion was that the sensor in the right rear had failed prematurely and should be replaced. He said that based on his experience with Phaetons and Touaregs, that once the numbers start getting below 20, it often turns out the sensors are the culprit in TPMS issues. I trust him, but of course he could be wrong. Before replacing that sensor, I decided to re-read everything I could find here on the forum, but so far I haven’t yet read anything that bolsters (nor diminishes) my confidence in his conclusion.

I have continued driving the car every day, and the system has continued to show the error symbol, but it now won’t even let me enter the learning mode at all: I’ll press the “NEW SPEC PRESSURES” button, and then the “CONFIRM” button, but there is no beep and it won’t enter the learning mode. 

I really don’t mind installing a new sensor, but I don’t want this to turn into one of those infamous TPMS wild goose chase stories, where they keep replacing part after part until they stumble onto the right one! So, before I purchase a new sensor (and new valve of course) I was thinking of having him do another scan and comparing it to the ones that used to be included in the aforementioned posts, thus the reason for my re-hosting request.

Sorry for such a long-winded post, but I like to be thorough. I look forward to any comments and suggestions.

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

Hello Ron,
My screen a week ago looked exactly like yours. A quick scan indicated the spare tire sensor battery life is 0 (zero), while the other 4 range from 8 to 16 months (not surprising, given that they are the original ones). I'm about to order and replace the one in the spare, after which I'm very curious to see the system's reaction: I would expect it to reset properly, since it was working properly until the very day that the spare's sensor's battery died. For this reason, I don't believe that a low (but not expired) battery life in one wheel, as is your case, should generate a fault error. If I were you, I would simply make sure the pressures are all to spec and drive the car for a while at freeway speeds. If that fails, I'd trigger an adaptation from cold before replacing a sensor. Just my two bits.
Stefano
P.S.: note to all forum friends: this marks my first post back after an almost four month absence due to a very serious accident this past August, with multiple fractures and a severe concussion. The good news is I was not driving the Phaeton, and I'm on the mend. The bad news: my beautiful and impeccably maintained '91 Acura Legend is no more (I'm actually parting it out, in case you know anyone who might be interested).


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Hello Stefano,

I, for one, had noticed your absence. My boys and I enjoyed meeting you at Michael Ga's Connecticut get-to-gether. My condolences on your accident but I am glad to hear you are recovering. Here's wishing you a continued, full recovery.

Victor

PS - Mods: sorry to be off topic but I wanted to make these wishes public rather than using a PM.

PPS - While it is good news that your Phaeton was not damaged, perhaps your own injuries would have been less severe in the Phaeton. It is built like a tank.


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

Motorista said:


> Hello Ron,
> My screen a week ago looked exactly like yours. A quick scan indicated the spare tire sensor battery life is 0 (zero), while the other 4 range from 8 to 16 months (not surprising, given that they are the original ones). I'm about to order and replace the one in the spare, after which I'm very curious to see the system's reaction: I would expect it to reset properly, since it was working properly until the very day that the spare's sensor's battery died. For this reason, I don't believe that a low (but not expired) battery life in one wheel, as is your case, should generate a fault error. If I were you, I would simply make sure the pressures are all to spec and drive the car for a while at freeway speeds. If that fails, I'd trigger an adaptation from cold before replacing a sensor. Just my two bits.
> Stefano
> P.S.: note to all forum friends: this marks my first post back after an almost four month absence due to a very serious accident this past August, with multiple fractures and a severe concussion. The good news is I was not driving the Phaeton, and I'm on the mend. The bad news: my beautiful and impeccably maintained '91 Acura Legend is no more (I'm actually parting it out, in case you know anyone who might be interested).


Hi Stefano,

Very sorry to hear about your accident, and very glad you are recovering! As for our similar TPMS problems, if when you say "trigger an adaptation", that means the same as press the "new spec pressures" button, then I have already tried that on numerous occasions with no success. If however, there is a more complete type of adaptation, please let me know. Since I don't own a VAG-COM, I wonder if I am missing out on such an option? From what I've read on the forum, a scan should be very clear as to whether or not a sensor is working properly, which quite frankly is why I'm a bit confused about my tech's somewhat uncertain diagnosis. Any thoughts?Anyone? Thanks again and get well soon.
Best regards,
Ron


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Resetting through VAG-COM does seem to do something different from the normal reset through the console. Pulling the fuse also works, you might give that a try if you don't have a cable (fuse 17 at the back, I think, but double check that before you pull it!).

When my sensors started to fail, I didn't get the same behaviour from the console, although the exact messages you get may be dependent on the controller model. I got intermittent low or flat tyre messages for one corner only. Mine has twice exhibited behaviour similar to that you describe, once when the dealer recoded the original controller as per a TB (which I fixed by setting it back again), and the second time when the controller itself failed. When the controller failed, it would appear to reset correctly, picking up all tyres, but then would fail shortly after giving the symbol on the dash with the console displaying the egg timer screen.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

Ron,
I was actually referring to pressing the "new specs pressure" button, but Invisiblewave is also correct that resetting using VCDS (aka vagcom) seems to trigger a more thorough process. In the first case, though, in the past I have not always been successful the first time around but with patience I always succeeded in the end. ANother trick that served me well in the past is to inflate all tires quite a bit above the specs recorded in the TPMS (thus say to 45 or even 47 for a spec of 43) and then go out on the highway for an automatic adaptation cycle. This time around, though, I'm prety sure that the fault is triggered by the dead battery in the spare, since just the day before the system was working fine. In any case, I plan to replace the sensor over the next couple fo weeks and will post again with the outcomes.
Regarding Vagcom/VCDS, I definitely feel it's worth the (relatively modest) price: it's a very elegant piece of software, especially in its latest implementation, and very easy to use and update: even my Phaeton tech at the dealer prefers to use it instead of the VW supplied one.

Victor, 
thank you very much for your very kind message. I too enjoyed meeting you all very much! I must confess that I managed to misplace your email, IM me when you get a chance. Also, you are probably correct about the Phaeton: it would have protected me more, though I'm very happy it didn't give its life for me 
Stefano


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks Stefano,

I took my car back to my tech today and had him re-scan it. This time the right rear sensor read "0" months left! Therefore, I think it's safe to say it is the culprit, or at least one of the culprits. So, I'm going to start by replacing it and hope that will be the end of it. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again to all of you for your help.

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Ron,
Somewhere around post 145 of this thread, I read that the TPMS sensors are now good for 96 months which is 8 years. And before I read this, I thought that the original sensors would last at least 5 years. In post 146, Michael wrote:

_If I had to 'bet the rent money' on sensor life, I would guess that it is somewhere between 6 years (72 months) and 8 years (96 months), with 6 years being the more probable of the two guesses._

The lifetime of your sensors seems to be much less than either 8, 6 or even 5 years. Wouldn't this be a good argument to get at least some courtesy discount? They performed 40% less than the minimum one would expect...so 40% discount seems fair 

Another mystery is about how the TMPS reports its remaining lifetime. Michael explained that the method is quite simple. When it leaves the factory, it it set to 96 months and then counts down 1 every month. But you have been observing, just like myself, that a sensor with a drained battery reports different remaining months from day to day. Perhaps the sensor switches over from simple counting down to actually measuring its voltage after some years have elapsed?
Puzzling. :screwy:
Willem


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My first sensor failed before my factory warranty expired, so nowhere near 6 years, and the others weren't far behind.


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

WillemBal said:


> Hi Ron,
> Somewhere around post 145 of this thread, I read that the TPMS sensors are now good for 96 months which is 8 years. And before I read this, I thought that the original sensors would last at least 5 years. In post 146, Michael wrote:
> 
> _If I had to 'bet the rent money' on sensor life, I would guess that it is somewhere between 6 years (72 months) and 8 years (96 months), with 6 years being the more probable of the two guesses._
> ...


Hi Willem,

Thanks for your comments. It did cross my mind that since the sensor failed prematurely, perhaps I should try to get some sort of courtesy discount. However, when I think back on it, it wasn't until a few weeks after I purchased my car that I discovered that the 4 mounted wheels didn't have any sensors. When I alerted the dealer, they very kindly sent them to me free of charge, even though they could have easily refused. As far as contacting the manufacturer (Beru), I don't think it's really worth pursuing. I've already ordered a replacement sensor and valve from Tire Rack, and it's $103 including shipping, so it's just not a big enough issue, even though I'm disappointed the part failed. As for how the sensor reports it's remaining life as its voltage declines, I haven't a clue, though it is a very interesting question. Thanks again. By the way, the new sensor I put in my spare wheel last month is now reading 92 months remaining, which I think help supports the 8 year theory.

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## geoffrey_fake (Dec 2, 2011)

*Tire pressure Monitoring 433MHz*

Hello 
I have a Phaeton 2008 3.0TDI with Tiure Pressure Monitoring System 433MHz obviously the best system.

However my screen shows only the 4 tires and my Spare tire in the trunk has also that system, 
how can I activate 5 Wheels ( with the spare tire) ?

I tried to follow this ::

; Phaeton coding information
;
;---------------------------------------------------
;
;
C00,Tire Pressure Monitoring System (J502) Coding
C01,
C02,?xxxx - Identification of manufacturer of the TPMS.
C03,1 - Volkswagen
C04,
C05,x?xxx - Time interval for system operation.
C06,0 - Standard
C07,
C08,xx?xx - Total number of tires to be monitored
C09,2 - 5 tires (vehicle has a full size spare)
C10,3 - 4 tires (vehicle has no spare tire)
C11,
C12,xxx?x - Type of engine installed (believed to refer to type of disc & caliper installed)
C13,0 - V6 Europe OR V8 North America
C14,2 - V8 Europe OR W12 North America
C15,4 - V10 Europe
C16,8 - W12 Europe
C17,
C18,xxxx? -Full load specified pressures
C19,4 - Standard
;

But I have nothing like that in my VCDS 

It says - SELECT 65 (tire Pressure Monitoring) 
Then Coding - Function 07 

I click on Coding 07 and it shows me a screen with a long coding number. 
Thats the number that it shows - 264900648C759D86AE with different colors ( yellow green etc) 
Nothing comparing to what I was traying to follow as information.

Shall I go in Adaptation ?? 


Can someone help me with that step by step.. 

Thanks a lot in advance 

Kind Regards

Geoffrey


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

There should be a 5 digit number on that screen somewhere. Looks from that list as if you need a 2 in the third digit, it probably currently has a 3.


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## geoffrey_fake (Dec 2, 2011)

I just check and no there is no further number.. 
I did a picture how can I put it here ?


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## geoffrey_fake (Dec 2, 2011)

or maybe i need a Security Access code .. but I don't have any.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's been too long since I've been in there to recall exactly what you should see. I'm pretty sure you don't need either adaptation or a security code for it. To post a picture, you have to host the picture on a webserver or hosting site, then post a link to it using the image editing icon, but someone with a better memory than me will probably come along beforehand and give you the answer.


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## geoffrey_fake (Dec 2, 2011)

invisiblewave said:


> It's been too long since I've been in there to recall exactly what you should see. I'm pretty sure you don't need either adaptation or a security code for it. To post a picture, you have to host the picture on a webserver or hosting site, then post a link to it using the image editing icon, but someone with a better memory than me will probably come along beforehand and give you the answer.



here is some screen of what I see with VCDS


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

geoffrey_fake said:


> I have a Phaeton *2008 *3.0TDI with Tire Pressure Monitoring System...
> 
> I click on Coding 07 and it shows me a screen with a *long coding number*.
> Thats the number that it shows - 264900648C759D86AE with different colors ( yellow green etc)
> Nothing comparing to what I was trying to follow as information.


 Hi Geoffrey: 

The label file that exists in VCDS (the new proper name for VAG-COM) is only suitable for MY 2002 to MY 2007 vehicles. I wrote that file way back in 2005, and recently revised it. 

Your car is a 2008, which uses an entirely different controller. That controller uses 'long coding', so, there is no commonality at all with the MY 2007 and prior vehicles. 

I cannot write a label file for MY 2008 and up because they are not sold here in North America - I can't get my hands on one. I have brought the topic up with the folks at VCDS, advising them that we need a second label file for the MY 2008 and up vehicles, and the label file headers need to be modified slightly so that the correct label file is selected, based on the part number of the controller. 

Sorry for the late answer, I have been in Alaska and Siberia for most of the past week, no internet there. 

Michael


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## geoffrey_fake (Dec 2, 2011)

PanEuropean said:


> Hi Geoffrey:
> 
> The label file that exists in VCDS (the new proper name for VAG-COM) is only suitable for MY 2002 to MY 2007 vehicles. I wrote that file way back in 2005, and recently revised it.
> 
> ...


 
Michael 
Thank you so much 

So it means that soon i will have an update about if its possible to do and how?


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## laser21 (Jan 25, 2012)

PanEuropean said:


> The photo below shows where the TPMS controller is located on a Phaeton. This picture is of the battery compartment on the left hand side of the car (where the vehicle power supply battery is), this is the battery compartment with the two 'easy to open' fasteners on it. The TPMS controller slides into two little slots on the bottom of the big relay panel, to remove it, just pull it straight out. The wiring harness is long enough to allow it to be removed without disconnecting anything.
> Michael
> *TPMS Controller Location on Phaetons*
> 
> ...


 I wanted to check, if my phaeton w12 2006 has the tpm, but the picture is unfortunately gone. 
It appears in my board-computer, but since I have no sensors in the tires, it shows nothing. Now I want to buy new tires, so Im considering buying sensors aswell. Is there anything I should look at? Do all phaetons have tpms, what sensors do I need? 
Thanks!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*Buying Lower-Cost TPMS Sensors*

*Edit: These sensors are no longer available. 10/2017 - CB*


*What this is about*
The regular dealership cost to fit 5 new VW/BERU TPMS sensors in the UK is about $1000. My factory-fitted ones stopped working about 66 months from new, so I tested some lower cost sensors from an alternative component manufacturer.

They are the same spec as the 433MHz BERU RDE001 system that is fitted to pre-06/2007 Phaetons worldwide. As with the BERU parts, these alternatives come with a plastic sealed sensor unit, a valve stem, a lens-topped dust cap and a fitting screw pre-coated with a locking treatment. The metal parts are some kind of stainless steel or light alloy, kept out of contact with the aluminium of the wheel casting by rubber gaskets.

*How much they cost*
The 5 pieces in total cost US$245 (£160) including free worldwide courier shipping to most countries direct from the manufacturer in Taiwan. I also had to pay £16 in UK import duty and £10 to the courier (FedEx) for handling the paperwork. The parts arrived direct in three or four days, then a few days later the courier sent me the import tax invoice by post, which I paid over the phone using a card.

*Fitting*
My trusted local independent took the tyres off, replaced the sensors and also did some tyre swapping to get an unmatched tyre onto the bent spare alloy, this was £50. The dealership previously charged £50 plus VAT just to swap the front left and spare tyres. I guess it's very labour-intensive pressing that trunk lid button.

The old sensors were seized on and had to be broken off. The new parts fitted easily, and the new valve stems were the correct length for the 18" Aristoteles alloys. The factory says they have other valve stems on request, but to me the others look quite unsuited for Phaeton use.

*The Fat Controllers*
The next morning, starting with an undriven car, I turned on the TPMS again using the infotainment screen buttons (it's a ROW car, obviously), pressed the 'new tyre pressures' buttons and drove 5 miles at up to 50-60mph. The sensors registered OK, the TPMS fault icon cleared and the tyre pressures screen showed normally.

VCDS shows it reset the battery life to 96 months. I don't know whether this comes from the sensor's memory or whether it's just a Controller default.

*My Mistakes*
However, I then made some mistakes. The car beeped and said Flat Tyre (all of them) so since I was on a journey I turned the system off again. Mistake #1.

A couple of days later, first thing in the morning I drove 800 yards to the garage. Mistake #2.

Then I pumped up the 5 tyres to the correct 45 psi front and 41 psi rear. The garage had put them all at 30psi, which is good for a Ford Fiesta but not a Phaeton. In fact it is below the 'flat tyre' value, apparently.

Then I pressed the 'new tyre pressure' buttons and drove the same 5 miles as before. Mistake #3. Nothing happened, except "TPMS fault".

*Where I Went Wrong*
-- The TPMS was working the first time, it was telling the truth that all the tyres were flat. The car handled like blancmange.

-- It wasn't necessary to reset it the 2nd time, I should have just pumped up the tyres. I was spooked by all the posts about TPMS difficulties, so assumed the worst. The dealership had wanted to change the TPMS Controller to fix the flat sensor batteries (!) so I wondered if they were right.

-- It wasn't correct to drive 800 yards to the garage to pump up the tyres, then try to reset the system. It won't have it. Michael and everyone else has posted this numerous times. START WITH A COLD CAR. This worked the 2nd time, as it had the first time.

*Where to get them*
I hope this info saves some people some dosh and makes driving safer, rather than turn the system off when the batteries die. To buy the parts, I emailed [email protected] and she confirmed the car, model, year and pointed me to their eBay shop. Or just search eBay for the correct Phaeton parts, they usually have the title "TPMS TIRE SENSORS FOR OE REPLACEMENT-Audi/Bentley/Ferrari/Maserati/Porsche/VW". They also do later models and other brands of cars, but these have a different eBay title. I didn't research this. But watch out for other Phaeton listings, these might be for post-06/2007 models with a different system spec.


Some photos below.

Cheers,
Chris



What you get











Same size as BERU parts. This is a very dirty spare 18" Aristoteles alloy. 











This screen shows the tyre pressures the car wants me to pump to with cold tyres (in bars)











This screen shows the tyre pressures the car wants me to pump to at the present tyre temperature (in bars)


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Thanks for this great piece of information. I need sensors, so I will be sending a mail soon.

P.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Those screen shots are interesting. The operation of the newer system is significantly different. afaik, my software version only ever shows one "current" pressure setting, and doesn't differentiate between different tyre temperatures, I don't have the spare option on-screen either. Having done a LOT of messing around with the TPMS when my sensors were failing, it's my feeling that about 95% of TPMS problems are actually very simple (simple cheap) to solve, either by inflating when cold and resetting, or by changing the dead sensors. The confusing part is the wide range of anomalous behaviour displayed by the system.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

invisiblewave said:


> Those screen shots are interesting. The operation of the newer system is significantly different. afaik, my software version only ever shows one "current" pressure setting, and doesn't differentiate between different tyre temperatures, I don't have the spare option on-screen either. Having done a LOT of messing around with the TPMS when my sensors were failing, it's my feeling that about 95% of TPMS problems are actually very simple (simple cheap) to solve, either by inflating when cold and resetting, or by changing the dead sensors. The confusing part is the wide range of anomalous behaviour displayed by the system.


The underlying hardware is the same, but a lot of options are disabled in North America. You're not allowed to disable the TPMS for legal reasons, etc. I'm not sure why they killed the option to show you recommended tire pressure, since there's only one (government-mandated) recommended pressure per car in North America. All you have is the option to snapshot current tire pressure (New Spec Pressure) and store that as a baseline, and warn if it falls below that.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I guess the NAR lawyers didn't want 'VW' ie the car to tell you what pressures to put in, other than the sticker ones, in case the TMPS system failed or made a mis-calculation.

Imagine the Perry Mason Court Scene: _Objection! My client relied on those numbers, and when they didn't appear, it caused them severe 2mph whiplash! $1m!_

Even those sticker numbers probably had Senate Committees fighting over the value!


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Maybe I missed it in here somewhere.
But I am getting fault Control Module for Tire Pressure Monitoring (J502) 004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent - MIL ON.
The TPMS is not working at the time and since I have owned the vehicle it seems to have never really been reliable. Has 4 new sensors replaced about 3 months ago with no change - have reset through the driver's display numerous times with no changes. System will go through the motion of learning (when cold) I drive it for more than 40 minutes continuously at 60+mph.

I have reset the fault this morning to see if I get the same fault code this evening after driving today. Tried relearning again today but still responded the same as always, system tpms fault displayed.

My question is there a confirmed technique to test the controller? What about unplugging and plugging the tpms controller? 

Sean


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

In my experience (extensive, like most other 2004/5 owners!), unplugging the controller is unlikely to help, although it may work short-term. Anyway, it's easy to try by pulling the fuse (from memory, 17 in the rear fuse panel). The symptoms when my controller finally failed were that it would appear to reset correctly and register the pressures, but then overnight it would fail again. ALL my "problems" with TPMS to that point were caused by either low sensor batteries or a combination of poor diagnostic messages and poor understanding of the system. Error handling/reporting is by far the most difficult and tedious part of software development, although dealing with users runs it close.


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

I will certainly try that first. 
The tpms system has worked fully once when I first got the vehicle. After that it basically has never come back to life. We put new sensors on when we replaced tires with absolutely no change. System never really every responded to the new sensors. 
Now that we have the vagcom I figured we would look a little deeper. Not sure I really want to replace the tpms controller as it seems the tpms is always a little suspect. 
I'm sure I read somewhere here how to disable the tpms via vagcom and removing the fuse. Will have to get more proficient with the system before we go and try that. 



Sean


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Invisiblewave: The symptoms when my controller finally failed were that it would appear to reset correctly and register the pressures, but then overnight it would fail again


I had the same problem as Invisiblewave, every morning the MIL DTC would be registered. I had to clear this using VCDS before it would reset correctly again with a cold car. But the next morning the MIL fault would be shown again, as before.

I changed the controller a few weeks ago, and all is now well. In fact I downgraded the controller from 2005 part 3D0 907 273 D with coding 0311284 to 2003 part 3D0 907 273 B with coding 0011244. This was only because that part came to hand, and the coding worked so I gave a silent thanks and left well alone. 

Chris


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Reset the controller still cannot get the sensors to register. Tried relearning several times with no change.
Vagcom is not giving me any tpms codes either???
I am pretty sure the controller is not responding but I have nothing to prove it....
Nothing has changed on the users display - same warning light on the dash and warning when you start it up....



Sean


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I wrongly assumed my error message was lying, but it was telling the truth all the time:

00003 - Control Module
014 - Defective - MIL ON

Your earlier message reported that the module's radio receiver couldn't pick up the transmissions from the sensors. Has that error message now gone, in VCDS?

Assuming the shop fitted the correct sensors (433MHz and not 315MHz) it would seem that the only way to go is to swap the controller for a known good one for a couple of days.

All you need is a willing victim to lend you one!

Chris


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Specs on the sensors
Transmitting power
Max 5dBm
Operation Frequency
433.92 MHz
Pressure Monitoring Range
0 ~ 600 kPa (or0 ~ 87 psi or 0 ~ 6 bar)
Pressure Reading Accuracy
±10 kPa (or ±1 psi or ±0.1 bar)
Temperature Monitoring Range
-40 ℃ to 115 ℃
Temperature Reading Accuracy
± 4℃ in normal environmental condition.
Weight 35.2g ± 1g
size 61 x 34 x 19 (mm)

I am going to run another scan today and see what it brings up -
After I cleared the codes 
Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: 3D0-907-273.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021 
Coding: 0011224
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2649CE8792FC2C9

No fault code found.

Prior to clearing the codes:
Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: 3D0-907-273.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021 
Coding: 0011224
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2649CE8792FC2C9

1 Fault Found:
01325 - Control Module for Tire Pressure Monitoring (J502) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent - MIL ON

I left the battery maintainer on all night to see if that improves the control module. 

Sean


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

No tpms codes

Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: 3D0-907-273.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021 
Coding: 0011224
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2649CE8792FC2C9

No fault code found.

tpms still not working


Not sure if it helps but here are the codes I do see.

Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 M HW: 5WK 470 26
Component: Kessy 6400 
Coding: 0133356
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F672BA3BD066D1

Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

1 Fault Found:
00180 - Access/Start Authorization Antenna; Passenger Side (R135) 
011 - Open Circuit
(This one showed up after I cleared codes - was not in original group of faults)

Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001 
Coding: 0000002
Shop #: WSC 03155 444 78572
VCID: 2E5936A7BA0C649

1 Fault Found:
00907 - Intervention load Management 
000 - - 

Address 37: Navigation Labels: 3D0-919-887.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 887 F
Component: NAVIGATION 0168 
Coding: 0400000
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 377713C34556A51

1 Fault Found:
01042 - Control Module; Not Coded 
000 - - 
(This one showed up after I cleared the codes - Was not in the original faults and seems to work just fine)

Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000015
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2241D297FED4D09

2 Faults Found:
00200 - Rear Interior Lamp Button (E327) 
007 - Short to Ground
00403 - Sunroof Motor (V1) 
000 - - - Intermittent

Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: 3D1-955-119.lbl
Part No: 3D1 955 119 
Component: Front Wiper 2005 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: E6C90E87D27C6C9

1 Fault Found:
00003 - Control Module 
014 - Defective
(This is interesting because I just had the hood cable replaced a couple of weeks ago and the tech said he had to remove the wiper to get it installed)


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Have you checked the fuse? Obvious thing, but you never know!


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

I pulled the #11 fuse and tested fine (according to the card guide located on top of the TPMS control module, that was the fuse for TPMS). 

You would think that if the fuse was bad it would show a fault on the TPMS system.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

There's also a way of coding the main controller so that the TPMS controller doesn't show up at all, that might be another thing to check. I think the details are in this thread somewhere. I've also had success in the past by tinkering with the coding of the TPMS controller itself. Make a note of the current coding then try changing it according to the details in the VCDS help.


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Still learning the ways of the vagcom - not entirely sure how to perform the proper coding yet. 

I know when we first purchased the car the tpsm worked a couple of times intermittently then stopped altogether. 
No coding was changed or performed at that time. This is the first time it has even been scanned since we owned the vehicle. 


Is this the description on how to set the tpms to not installed you are referring to?

_"If you have a diagnostic scan tool, try opening up the J523 Front Information Display and Control Head, go to coding, and change the third digit from the right (the digit in the 'hundreds' position) by deducting 2 from it. Most likely it will be a 3 now, so that means you change the 3 to a 1. That will tell the display unit that TPMS is NOT installed in the car, therefore, not to bother displaying information from it.

You may also have to pull the fuse that supplies power to the TPMS, to avoid having the J523 generate an 'improper coding' fault code because it notices the messages coming from the TPMS over the CAN bus.

Michael "_

Or this one?
_Instead, for North American Phaetons, here is a TPMS disabling procedure:

1. Open trunk. Remove left side battery panel and pull the TPMS fuse (fuse 11 in the luggage compartment left side battery fuse box).
2. Start car and plug in VCDS/VAGCOM.
3. Open Controller 7, follow recoding instructions (recode third digit from right to "1") to eliminate TPMS.
4. Close controller 7.
5. Open Controller 19, recode with exactly the same code as it already has (probably something like "0000006").
6. Close controller 19.
7. (optional) Do an auto scan and then clear trouble codes on controllers that appear related to the TPMS (likely controllers 19 and 46).
8. Note: this procedure does not require any recoding for controller 65.

I did this and it worked - the "TPMS Fault" is gone from the Y24. J523 has a "TPMS Unavailable" screen that matches the "Phone Unavailable" screen. _


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, I think that 8 point procedure was the one I followed when I tried it.

Strangely enough, mine's currently displaying behaviour I've never seen before. I use the TPMS function to check my tyre pressures periodically by doing the reset from the dash and seeing what pressures it's currently registering. This time it registered the fronts and spare, but the rears don't show anything and the TPMS fault is on the centre display. My guess is that the rears need a couple of pounds in them, but normally it either shows all the pressures or none at all.


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

I haven't done much with mine lately. Left it on the LH battery maintainer until it was fully charged. 
Now driving it today to see if the TPMS miraculously starts working after yet another reset and learning procedure. 

If it doesn't start working today or at least giving me some codes in vagcom I will attempt to program it off.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You might be better off just disabling the system and forgetting about it. Yet again, mine's just proved it's an expensive, almost worthless PITA. I checked the pressures on my rear tyre and one of them was about 6lbs down. There's a nail in it, so I'm pretty sure it's got a slow puncture. The system failed to warn me about it, and even after a reset didn't show that wheel as defective, it just refused to register pressures in both rears (why both I've no idea, the other one was fine). There's no real substitute for regular checks with a gauge. The only time the TPMS is likely to be useful is if you have a puncture that's fast enough to deflate between checks, but slow enough that you don't notice the gradual loss of pressure. As I've said before, it's a solution looking for a problem.


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Oh believe me I'm not a VW purest  I have no trouble at all disabling the entire TPMS if that is what it takes to get the light and waring bells to stay off every time I start the phaeton. Probably would just make more sense to flash a warning stating "check your tire pressures" every time you start the vehicle. 

I can appreciate the fine engineering that goes into the Phaeton. I can also see where the real world and the engineering world did not quite come fully together with the Phaeton as well. 

The Phaeton is a nightmarish dream. Love the darn car, but seriously feel like I'm playing wack-a-mole with vagcom. 


While we are at it why does the "ice" warning come on at 39 degrees F? Does 39 degrees make ice in Germany? This has become quite humorous to us when we are driving in the colder months.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I think especially on the earlier cars, a lot of the systems are first generation. TPMS is a prime example, it's evidently an early system which still has gremlins, or rather inconsistencies especially in the user interface. No doubt it works better on later model cars which have the system by legislative mandate, probably due to heavy lobbying by someone in a position to benefit financially! 

Don't know about 39 degrees, mine comes on at 4 Celsius.... I've always assumed that's due to latent heat, which I vaguely remember from my grammar school physics. In theory, it means that water can exist as a solid at standard pressure in temperatures above 0. No doubt it also helps to deal with rapid temperature fluctuations, or local differences (such as bridges) where the temperature of the road surface might differ from the sensor reading.


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

True but that would probably be more applicable during an exothermic condition not an endothermic. When the ice warning goes off it is when the temp is falling (endothermic/cooling process) to 39F(4C). 
Either way it is amusing to us "northerners" in the spring time. 

The TPMS is still pretty baffling as to why it just doesn't work better than it does. VW had TPMS systems installed on vehicles prior to 2004 (I think) so you would think by the time they released the Phaeton they would have had a more reliable system.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

I think that most issues are attributed to bad sensor batteries, a weak accessory battery, or a lack of understanding on how to calibrate the system. It's not worth it to me to have my sensor batteries replaced so I deactivated mine. 

Damon


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

No more warning lights now. The 8 step fix did the trick.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I opened up the TPMS controller when I was having trouble with it, to resolder the PCB (nothing to lose - but didn't gain anything!), and it's made by BERU, same as the OEM sensors. 

I guess in this case, VW took the alarms as-found from the BERU manual and did their best to display them. 

But nothing beats a quick visual check before you drive... 

Chris


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Since it is basically disconnected now - I may take the controller to my shop tomorrow and see if there is anything gross and obviously wrong with the PCB. 
I would suspect though that since it is in a controlled environment it is more than likely an internal failure. Fortunately PCBs are right up our alley


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Interested to hear what you find, I wasn't massively impressed with the amount of flux that burned off, but having said that, the finish was very good. 

Being a radio PCB it's not easy to do much in a home workshop, but a pro shop should be more interesting! Good luck anyway, if you have the patience to try it again. 

Chris


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Ironically we specialize in wireless transceivers (radios) as well...


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Found nothing out of the ordinary with the control module. All components appeared to be soldered very well actually. 

Can someone tell me the difference between a 3D0 907 273C and the 3*Z*0 series control modules? 
Are they interchangeable? 

Sean


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Sean, 

What's the whole part number on that "3Z0"? I don't think it's a car model designation. 

Cheers, 
Chris


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm not sure - When I requested the entire part number they never responded. 
I cannot find 3Z0 anywhere for any VW. 
I think I am just going to keep the TPMS shut down and stop worrying about trying to make it work. 
Too bad I have brand new wheel sensors though :screwy: 

Sean


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Have you priced a new/used controller? If you can get one cheaply enough and fit it yourself, it's probably worth a try. Not sure if there'd be any kind of adaption involved, but it probably wouldn't cost much to get that bit done at a dealer if you can't do it yourself.


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Used around $200 for the exact match. 
New $440 and up. 

If I had confidence in the TPMS system generally speaking I wouldn't mind just replacing the control mod. But the system just seems quirky at best. 

The original owner of my W12 had all 4 sensors and control module replaced under warranty back in 2005. When I purchased the car from him over a year ago the warning tpms failure lights would come on quite frequently. The TPMS only got progressively worse as time went on. I was told that the sensors were needing to be replaced. (Before I had Vagcom) - So I replaced all 4 sensors with zero affect. 
I'm good with no TPMS. 

Sean


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Have you tried playing around with the coding on the controller? From memory, I think the coding differs between the versions. Mine didn't work with the official coding in the TB (haven't played around with the new one which was done under warranty).


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Not really. 
I did verify that the coding was correct for the version of module that was installed.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Are you any better informed about buckeyes than you are about TPMS? Can you confirm that a buckeye is, in fact, the same thing as a conker?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Aside remark: doh! I have to Google so much when reading this Forum! I have no idea what a 'Buckeye' is...


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

Oh geeze... Buckeyes are worthless poisonous nuts, as are conkers. (19 species worldwide, 7 North American and the rest across the big pond from me.) 


Unless you are referring to the slang terms brits vs yanks than that is an entirely new topic.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Worthless???? I guess you only have the nut, not the game!


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## buckeyecam (Apr 11, 2012)

I think that is why they invented the game using the nuts  
No we do not have the game - at least most of the population doesn't know about conkers....


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos on first 3 pages re-hosted.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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## vitop (Aug 22, 2012)

I just replaced the TPMS sensors and will be trying to put it in learning mode in the morning. T have a question though. 
My monitor looks like this









It does not show a spare. Does it show a spare after you enter tire pressures? Or do you think the spare monitoring has been disabled?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi,

The system can be set up in the controller coding for 4- or 5-wheel monitoring. When in 5-wheel monitoring mode the on/off button for the spare is visible, in case you need to disable it because of having a tyre off-vehicle being fixed. In 4-wheel mode it's not visible.

The spare wheel can be added in using VCDS (VAG-COM). For early TPMS controllers (suffix A/B/C) see post #5 in the present thread. For later controllers (suffix D/E...) see post #32 in TPMS Troubleshooting and Problem Solving Difficulties.

All valid codes for NAR cars are listed a couple of pages back in this thread in a PDF that Michael posted.

Cheers,
Chris


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## vitop (Aug 22, 2012)

So Chris - you are saying that from what you can tell, someone has turned off the 5th wheel monitoring capability and that I would need to get into the VCDS to turn it back on?



Paximus said:


> Hi,
> 
> The system can be set up in the controller coding for 4- or 5-wheel monitoring. When in 5-wheel monitoring mode the on/off button for the spare is visible, in case you need to disable it because of having a tyre off-vehicle being fixed. In 4-wheel mode it's not visible.
> 
> ...


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Yes.

Sorry, I never use one word when 3 paragraphs would do!


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## vitop (Aug 22, 2012)

Chris - a pleasant surprise today. I went out this morning and hit the New Spec. Pressure button and accepted the next screen. I thought I would see something telling me that I was in learning mode, but got no message. I was driving for what seemed too long and the system just stayed the same. After a while I decided to turn around and go home. Shortly thereafter the TPMS indicator light went out and it showed all tires including the spare to be ok.

So for some reason, it didn't show the spare in the initial programming screen, but when done it showed it as part of the monitored tires. So now the TPMS light is finally out.


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## AlanX2033 (May 9, 2011)

*Help with TPMS - Flat Tire Warning*

Hello!

I just recently purchased 5 brand new TPMS sensors and four brand new tires.
I placed them on the vehicle, filled the tires to the recommended pressures, and clicked the reset button for TPMS. It's quite cold outside as well. Then I clicked the new tire specs. button.
It said "TPMS learning"

I started the 15 minute drive, but after about 5 minutes, the system stated: "Flat Tire."
But all tires are fine.
So I kept on driving, hoping that the system would fix itself.
The message never disappeared. 
I drove for about 40 minutes before arriving back home. It still said "Flat."

I then turned off the vehicle and turned it back on again.
When it was turned back on, it stated "TPMS learning."

I'm not sure what I did wrong.
If someone could help me out, that would be great.

Thanks!
Alan


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Alan,

The same thing happened to me after I changed tyres and wheels following a double pothole hit. I felt that the TPMS controller was still looking for the old sensors in the old positions.

In my case, I followed the procedure again a day or two later (double-check cold pressures the 'day before', start in the morning not having driven, press the button) and it cleared after a few miles when the tyre temperatures and pressures had increased enough for the TPMS controller to detect that they were correctly following the pressure increase algorithm as the rubber heated.

In other words, I suggest trying again.

Chris


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## AlanX2033 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design, Function, Operation, and Troubleshooting*

Hey Chris,

Thanks for your response!
I'll give it a shot again today as well to see if there's improvement.
Hopefully it works this time!

Alan


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## AlanX2033 (May 9, 2011)

Hello!

I tried it multiple more times... But unfortunately it still isn't working :banghead:

I'll begin the 15 min run, and about 2 minutes in, I'll get the "Flat Tire" warning. On the ZAB for TPMS, all 5 tires are lit with a yellow warning logo.

I tried unplugging the TPMS for a couple hours, thinking that might hard reset it. Then I retried the 'earning process, but I still got the exact same warning after driving for only a couple minutes...

Could this be because it's monitoring the spare? The spare has a new sensor in it as well.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Alan,

Unplugging the TPMS controller won't reset it, it will just throw a few DTCs.

You might be able to revive it by doing a reset to factory settings with VCDS. Failing that you will need to use the VCDS to read the Measured Value Blocks and see what the TPMS controller has to say about the 5 sensors in terms of detected tyre pressures and radio signals.

Chris


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## AlanX2033 (May 9, 2011)

Darn!

In that case, it seems I might finally have to purchase that Ross Cable...

I'll see if I can scrap together the money for that.
Unless if there's a way to get the same functionality without the Ross Cable?

Haha Thanks!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm sorry the advice is not definitive - pump to these pressures, press that, drive like this, bing! it's OK... although that usually works.

The problem is that no-one that I am aware of knows what algorithm the software uses. It's clearly not a simple pressure OK/not OK choice with a temperature adjustment, because it appears to monitor the rate of tyre heating as well as having or sending a feed to the power steering system and tenaciously sticking with the IDs from old discarded sensors longer than we wish. It also tries too hard to guard against being parked next to other Phaetons and 'cross-pollinating' the tyre information.

Yesterday afternoon I noticed air bubbles coming from round a TPMS nozzle nut as I washed the mud off the alloys and by this morning the tyre was completely flat. Naturally my handy emergency pump carried in the trunk did not push the valve stem enough to pump the air in, so I bought a new one, pumped the tyre and had the garage that just fitted the tyres inspect it. They tightened the nut and all seems well, I hope.

Anyway, the TPMS initially said DEFECTIVE WHEEL ON BOARD which it changed (reasonably) after pumping to 4psi lower than the previous setting to FLAT TYRE. However, pumping back to normal didn't clear the indicated fault. 

But driving down the road did not clear it either, in fact neither did pushing the re-learn button and driving some more. However, I am not following my own advice. I should have left it alone, and tried a cold morning start.

I'll try again tomorrow. I know the system works properly, I merely quote this to give you heart that a working system can, for a while, give the appearance of failure! :screwy:

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Chris, what makes you think the controller software is that sophisticated? All the behaviour I've seen with mine indicates that it does a pretty simple check of pressure against the preset spec.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm comparing it against the Mercedes/Jeep system, which behaves in a predictable manner. You put the air in, it says 'OK'. The tyres go flat, it flashes. 

The Phaeton system behaves in an unpredictable manner, which means that the algorithms are more complicated than my brain cell can make sense of without more or deeper thought. Especially in relation to the process it applies to learning new ID codes using a temperature rise detection.

But it's easy for me to make simple stuff seem complex. It takes someone like you to cut through to the nub of it with no fuss!

Cheers,
Chris


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## AlanX2033 (May 9, 2011)

Thanks for the advice!

It's a challenging system.
I'll try working at it again over the course of the next couple days.
Hopefully it works!

I also just contacted the seller of the TPMS so they're going to try and help with getting it to work.
I'll post updates!

Thanks again!
Alan


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

TPMS Update:

Having checked the tyre pressures yesterday lunchtime, I started the car this morning cold, did not press the 'New Tyre Pressures' button again (I pressed it yesterday), got a TPMS RE-LEARNING message and drove for 8 minutes at between 30 and 65 mph. The TPMS silently cleared to OK at the same spot on the road as in previous learning runs.

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It looks to me as if the apparent complexity in its operation is usually due to faults in the system, which is borne out by the much more straightforward operation with the new controller. It evidently doesn't have any logic to deal with differences in tyre temperature, hence the requirement to hit the reset button with cold tyres on a level surface. Mine also now deals with re-inflation much better than it did, my spare was indicating flat so I put a few pounds in and when I turned the car back on it was already reading OK. And after a couple of years now without any problems in the Phaeton, the day I took the Altima hire car back last week, the TPMS light appeared on the dash!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

invisiblewave said:


> ...which is borne out by the much more straightforward operation with the new controller...


Also be aware that there is a difference in the coding values that need to be entered between early model controllers and late model controllers. I believe that this is discussed earlier on in this thread.

Michael


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but the dead horse could use some tickling...

I received my 2004 Phaeton Tuesday night (It is Friday today). When I was test driving the car the TPMS Monitoring System Fault notice came on. As part of the purchase the dealer was to resolve the issue. They said it was just sensors and they would order them in and replace them. This delayed receipt of the car, but I wanted it corrected, which I beleive they did in good faith (respected dealer). However, I also have no paperwork from the parts supplier or the tier shop that they had install the new sensors.

When I took delivery of the car, I noted the error was still present. My salesman said he also noted that before he left but was told it would clear after some amount of driving. As he had about 35 KMs to cover to my house he expected it to clear, and it did not.

I read the earlier detailed thread my Michael about how to reset the system and this morning, when leaving for work (from cold) I hit the "new pressure/reset" button from the Vehicle menu, acknowledged any confirmations that were required and drove off. I did NOT get any indicatation the system was in learning mode or that anything had really changed.

I took a long route to work, getting the car up to 100 KM/hour for a few minutes and then moving up and down in speed in traffic around town. I traveled about 17 KMs before I got to work. No indication of any improvement in the system, learning mode, or anything else. When the car is first turned on (I cycled it when I got to work) I get the same "TPMS Tyre Monitoring System Fault" message, that reduces to just the top center icon after a moment. 

Did I miss a step in the process or is there some other secret handshake I need? Or is it more likely that the module is in fact in a fault state?

I notified the selling dealer that the issue was outstanding, informed them I would attempt another reset per the manual tomorrow, but that if it didn't clear I feel it should be investigated by my local VW dealer (5 min away from the office). Will a general VW dealer be of assistance or is this a Phaeton nuance? (The former Phaeton specified shop is more like an hour each way from me).

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If it won't even go into learning mode, that strongly indicates a problem with the controller side of things rather than the sensors. When the sensors fail, it'll enter learning mode but then crap out 33 miles later. Check the fuse (17 rings a bell, but check the thread, it'll be in there somewhere), and check the coding on the controller (you'll need a scan tool for that). You can also physically check the controller, make sure it's present and plugged in.


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> If it won't even go into learning mode, that strongly indicates a problem with the controller side of things rather than the sensors. When the sensors fail, it'll enter learning mode but then crap out 33 miles later. Check the fuse (17 rings a bell, but check the thread, it'll be in there somewhere), and check the coding on the controller (you'll need a scan tool for that). You can also physically check the controller, make sure it's present and plugged in.


I can't find any mention of learning mode.

I decided to take a video, since I don't know what "normal" should look like. If someone can compare this to what their car does, I would be very appreciative.

Also, below the video is a photo of the trunk fuse bay where I believe the module is/should be located. Can someone confirm all looks correct there? Thanks. -Jeff

PS - How do I identify fuse 17 (or any fuse for that matter). Is there a fuse map stashed somewhere in the car? I didn't see one in the trunk.

[video]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161739/2004%20VW%20Phaeton%20for%20web/Phaeton%20for%20Forum/2004%20Phaeton%20TPMS%20Reset%20Attempt.mp4[/video]


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Jeff,

Here is a photo of the TPMS controller in my car, with one from Michael's below. Maybe mine and yours are clipped in the wrong way round. Your battery looks quite tall, is it the OEM one? Mine is the retail equivalent of OEM.

The 'Learning' message appears on the in-dash display at engine start, although it is not displayed very long and sometimes gets over-ridden by other messages, I think. If you see the hour-glass symbols in the central display, as on your video, then it's trying to learn.

The simplest reason for not learning is that the pressures are too low. Garage juniors almost invariably set them to around 36 psi, which will not normally learn successfully, at least with my V10 coding. Once I put them back to around 42 to 45 psi it works fine. But the system does genuinely require the cold start and a 5 mile drive at over 50 mph for a quicker learn. I have tried many times, and without those parameters it usually won't play ball, even over a few day's use.

Once you have pressed the 'Set New Pressures' button it remembers and will continue trying for some days. My controller is version B. I think they changed the software for version C and again for D, so perhaps this adds to the confusion when people compare results.

Chris


*My car's TPMS Controller*










*Michael's photo*








http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/TPMSControllerLocation-Phaeton.jpg


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Look on the dash when you hit the confirm button, it should say something along the lines of "The TPMS system is learning", it will also display that same message when you start the car, it only appears for a few seconds then it just shows the symbol. On my NA V8, the pressure in the tyres when you reset make no difference to the system, it'll set to whatever pressures you have. I'm currently running mine at the Euro-spec pressures of 36/34 to see if it helps with the excessive tyre wear that you'll shortly discover!

The controller just slides in and out of the slot it's in.


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

The project to clear the TPMS fault continues...

I thought I better double check the ACTUAL pressures, something I had not done until now assuming the tire shop would have set them properly.

These are approximate, I'm using an older manual gauge and the high pressure makes getting a fit hard on intial contact so I could be out by 1-2 psi based on multiple attempts.

I read:

LF - ~43 psi
RF - ~42 psi
LR - ~43 psi
RR - ~44 psi

I'm digging around in the manual trying to find the correct rating for a 2004 NAR V8, can someone confirm for me what it should be. Someone earlier suggested 46 psi but I think that was for a Euro V10 model?

Are these "close enough" to right that they are unlikely to be part of my fault issue?

-Jeff


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

2004 NAR V8 (4 Seat) Phaeton Tire Pressures (Answering my own question for the benefit of the next reader).

Recommended PSI per the sticker on my car (yours may vary, always check the sticker - the manual only refers you to the sticker).

Front - 39 PSI
Rear - 45 PSI
Spare - 45 PSI

I am used to finding this, along with fluid capacities and a few other things front and center in the owners manuals. The Phaeton manuals are really a weak spot.

Now I need to go back and adjust them before I try and reset the system again... Will also check for/confirm learning mode appears somewhere and take a photo of the top of my TPMS module to confirm the software version (although I have no VAG COM scanner to read anything, sounds like I better get one).

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The actual pressures in your tyres doesn't matter for the purposes of getting the system to reset, other than a minimum differential between tyres on the same axle that Jason mentioned some time back. DOES THE SMALL DASHBOARD DISPLAY RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES DISPLAY A MESSAGE ABOUT THE SYSTEM LEARNING WHEN YOU PRESS THE BUTTON? If it doesn't, I don't recall anyone having mentioned this behaviour before, and you're completely wasting your time with tyre pressure measurements. You're pretty much wasting your time worrying about the pressures anyway at this point, so long as they're near enough, the system will reset correctly so long as the sensors and controller are good. In nearly 7 years of ownership, I've never observed my TPMS system fail to reset because of incorrect tyre pressures, the worst case scenario is that it resets but shows a problem with one tyre. 

With regard to the pressures, VW apparently increased to specified pressures on the door pillar sticker for NA vehicles for legal reasons, the original sticker used in the rest of the world cars has different pressures listed for different loads. At 36/34, the ride is noticeably quieter and smoother.


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

From cold, here is what I did

-Start the car
-Gauge LCD reports fault in tyre pressure monitoring system, reduces to the top center TPMS error icon
-Go through lawyer screens on J523, press Vehicle, go in to TPMS and attempt reset
-View guage LCD, it says "Service Now" with TPMS icon still present at top
(Service Now recently appeared, the day the car was delivered. The car is due for its 48K KM service in about 1500 KM so I assumet his is normal)
-There is no sign at all on the Guage LCD of the phrase "learning"
-Repeat reset process as the initial power on was causing various messages to cycle (Service now etc)
-Still no sign at all of the "learning phrase"

(Note, I did not start driving the car, this was all stationary but the engine running - do I need to start driving to trigger "learning" mode?)

I'll post a video in case I'm being obtuse and missing something.

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Post a video of the small LCD as you press the Confirm button to reset the system.


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> Post a video of the small LCD as you press the Confirm button to reset the system.


Thanks for your patience. This one is vexing.

I did the sequence twice from engine start in the video I have posted on dropbox (<2 minutes) and no sign of the learning message that I can see.

Very interested in your feedback. I'm going to slide the TPMS module out and take a photo of the part number/sw rev etc. so we also have that information.

What would happen if the TPMS module was removed or was faulty? Same message? I think Michael said one of the challenges with this system is there are many more fault conditions than messages so it isn't always clear where the fault starts?

Here is the video link, should play in your browser from DropBox:

[video]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161739/2004%20VW%20Phaeton%20for%20web/Phaeton%20for%20Forum/2004%20Phaeton%20TPMS%20Reset%20J523%20and%20Dash% 20LCD%20examples%20from%20cold%20start.mp4[/video]

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, that looks like some sort of problem with the controller, either physical or the coding. When the sensors are bad, the system enters learning mode (with a message that it's learning), then comes up with warning triangles instead of hour glasses. When my second controller failed, it would enter learning mode but then display the fault message after 33 miles. I don't recall anybody's system behaving the way yours is. It might be as simple as the controller not being properly plugged in, since it looks as if the controller isn't responding that it's learning. Check the part number on your controller against those listed in the thread, I don't recall what generation letter we're up to now, but I think it's at least a C. The earlier controllers don't work as well as the later ones, and most of them seem to fail completely before too long. Worth remembering that this was a very early TPMS system, your car was likely manufactured in 2003 with parts made perhaps as early as 2002. Most people had never even heard of TPMS until a couple of years ago when it became mandatory in NA. Also worth remembering that pretty much all of us have been through this painful process of understanding how the TPMS system works, once all the hardware is working, it actually works pretty well, although I still think it's a solution looking for a problem.

One other thing you can do fairly easily is to take it to your local tyre shop, they have a gizmo that can read the individual sensors and tell you if they're working.

A VCDS scan would probably pinpoint the problem. My guess is it'll show the controller not communicating or something. In my opinion it's only worth buying when you have a problem, but once you have it you can also use it to do a bunch of nice-to-have things like removing seat belt or door open chimes, adjusting parking sensor volume (particularly useful if you happen to have a family member who is lacking in parking abilities), and lowering the suspension to the original (ROW) specification (the NA cars ride 10mm higher).


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

The plot thickens.

The TPMS module slides out easily, as everyone indicated.

The cable appears to be firmly attached, visual inspection showed no obvious issue.

Looks like this unit might have been replaced in 2008 or later already, given the build date?

What else do we know from this photo:










-Jeff

PS - Is it possible they used the wrong frequency for the TPMS sensors themselves?


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

Looks like I have the most current replacement for the gen1 units ( 3D0 907 273 G ), per this post from another sub-forum on this site:



jyoung8607 said:


> Based on information from ETKA and other sources, I figured out what TPMS modules are likely to be installed, by year and hardware generation.
> 
> MY2002 through 2007
> 3D0 907 273 433MHz through 3D-3-005 225 gen1 hw
> ...


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You need a scan. Did you check the fuse?


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> You need a scan. Did you check the fuse?


Ended up going in to the dealer when one of the service guys said he would pull up the maintenance history on the car and walk be through it. Said he couldn't print it, but he did the next best thing and let me take notes while he reviewed it.

Haven't had a chance to check the fuse yet, that is next on my list. As is figuring our what I need for a scanner and ordering it.

-Jeff


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Jeff,

Wow, your TPMS controller has been through the mill! The case is ajar and it has been handled by a hundred oily-fingered techs. You could usually eat your breakfast off them. That likely indicates that the problem is on-going.

Suffix G is indeed the latest controller part, introduced in 2006. However, as I mentioned, my old suffix B works well. Suffix C was introduced in 2004 but then dropped within 3 months for suffix D.

Yours is marked 433MHz, as would be expected by the part number, which is correct. So obviously that's what the sensors should also be, not the alternative NAR generic 315MHz.

Martin's experience -- about the pressures during learning having no influence on success or failure -- is different from my experience (mine will not learn unless the pressures are above 40). However, Martin has a suffix D controller on a V8 with coding 410201 (NAR/BERU/QC/5 tyres/V8NAR/standard full-load pressures) whilst my older controller on the V10 has coding 11244 (VW/non-standard time interval/5 tyres/V10/standard full-load pressures). So there are no rights and wrongs here, just different software.

To scan you need something from this list:
<OL><LI>A Windows laptop, the latest free software downloaded from Ross-Tech's web site, and to buy a cable with a built-in licence chip at a few hundred dollars from Ross-Tech or one of its distributors listed on the web site, or perhaps from a VWVortex advertiser, depending on who has the best shipping deal this month.</LI><LI>It is also possible to buy an old-style non-license-chip Chinese OBD cable on eBay for $8 and download the old free software from Ross-Tech. This setup is cheap and cheerful and may not give you the full data, but could be enough for simple controller readouts. You still need the laptop of course, probably Windows XP for the older software, but that's a guess.</LI><LI>There is also a new cable/smartplug version which costs a bit more. It connects wirelessly to any Wi-Fi gadget (laptop/tablet/smartphone/Windows/Mac) and interacts only through a standard web browser. It's not an Android or Apple app.</LI></OL>
Chris


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

Paximus said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Wow, your TPMS controller has been through the mill! The case is ajar and it has been handled by a hundred oily-fingered techs. You could usually eat your breakfast off them. That likely indicates that the problem is on-going.
> 
> ...


Chris,

I feel you may be right. I'm not sure why it didn't go in to fault mode, or perhaps it did and it didn't register with me, during my initial test drive. Unless a previous tech has temporarily suppressed it somehow. As the module is one of only a handful of services/replacements done to the car, I don't think the issue is new.

I will return to the selling dealer and their tire shop and have them confirm what the frequency on the installed sensors is, although I have a hunch that this is not it as the system is not even entering learning mode. I would expect, if the sensors were the wrong frequency that the controller would enter learning mode and then fail to find any sensors. (I would also bet they didn't change the spare, so I would expect to find at least one sensor). 



Paximus said:


> Martin's experience -- about the pressures during learning having no influence on success or failure -- is different from my experience (mine will not learn unless the pressures are above 40). However, Martin has a suffix D controller on a V8 with coding 410201 (NAR/BERU/QC/5 tyres/V8NAR/standard full-load pressures) whilst my older controller on the V10 has coding 11244 (VW/non-standard time interval/5 tyres/V10/standard full-load pressures). So there are no rights and wrongs here, just different software.


Thanks, I picked up on the nuance of the different cars and the possibility for that (and can only follow one suggestion at a time when troubleshooting properly) so I was just working my way down the list. It's great to have so many helpful folks to chip in with ideas, it just takes a while to work through them. Ultimately posting the video was probably the most useful step. Handy that most of us have an HD camera in out pockets these days...



Paximus said:


> To scan you need something from this list:
> <OL><LI>A Windows laptop, the latest free software downloaded from Ross-Tech's web site, and to buy a cable with a built-in licence chip at a few hundred dollars from Ross-Tech or one of its distributors listed on the web site, or perhaps from a VWVortex advertiser, depending on who has the best shipping deal this month.</LI><LI>It is also possible to buy an old-style non-license-chip Chinese OBD cable on eBay for $8 and download the old free software from Ross-Tech. This setup is cheap and cheerful and may not give you the full data, but could be enough for simple controller readouts. You still need the laptop of course, probably Windows XP for the older software, but that's a guess.</LI><LI>There is also a new cable/smartplug version which costs a bit more. It connects wirelessly to any Wi-Fi gadget (laptop/tablet/smartphone/Windows/Mac) and interacts only through a standard web browser. It's not an Android or Apple app.</LI></OL>
> Chris


As I am planning on being in for the long haul (at least the next four years) with the Phaeton, I think I'll investigate and probably pop for the newest WiFi unit. Not having to be cabled to an exact spot when inspecting codes will be convenient, and it should ensure as platforms advance it is easier to support new software on the client side.

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The new wifi dongle is still a bit flaky, but probably worth it now after a multitude of updates during the beta phase. It actually does has an Android app that goes with it, so it's very easy to use with a phone. The only real drawback with it is that it needs to be already configured for the wifi network to be able to connect wirelessly, which isn't a big problem because if you're away from home you can switch it into hotspot mode and connect to it using wifi from the phone. It also makes life a LOT easier if you want to lower your suspension (read up on the procedure for details).


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

Thanks, I was just on the Ross-Tech website reading about it. Am I correct that any of the options will get me full read/write to the things most Phaeton owners want to change?

Sounds like the wireless may still be a bit early for me, but I'll call them and discuss it further. Also, Steve and I are meeting up on Tuesday and he is bringing his along so the first phase of updates, potentially including the TPMS enable (if I do go that route), may already be done before I get my unit.

The WiFi option is darn appealing to be able to sit at my desk and make updates while I have ready access to the forums (although it occurs to me that the car would need to be on a tender to do that...) but it sounds like the tried and true, guaranteed to work option is the USB.

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

A couple of months ago, I would have said to wait, but it's definitely worth having the wireless one now.

And take no notice of Gluteus, he's doing it wrong!:laugh: My controller is also the G iteration, and also has that gap in the cover. It's a fairly large step up in functional performance over the old ones, were it working correctly you'd have no problem setting the system within a couple of miles of driving.


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

I had a chance to check the TPMS controller fuse tonight (#11 in the trunk fuse panel, confirmed in the owners manual, 5A).

The fuse looks fine, the S metal between the two contacts looks good. Reinstalled the fuse and tried the TPMS init again. Still no learning mode. No response to confirming the new pressure learning cycle.

At this point I think I will look at it with Steve (of Le Club 3P fame) tomorrow. We're meeting up as he is passing through town and very kindly offered to show me around the Phaeton, teach me a few secrets about the car and do some VAG COM programming. If we can't get anywhere with it I think I'll just code it off and remove it. 

By rights I should put it back on the selling (non-VW) dealer as they were supposed to fix it, but due to the complexity of getting them the car (45 min each way), and their need to run it by the tire shop that did the work etc. etc. it is going to cost me so much in time (and I bet more than one trip) that I don't think it is worth it. And, given everything I've read here (and the fact the car had the TPMS module replaced in 2009) I'm not even certain it won't just become an issue down the road again anyway. Diminishing returns and all that.

If there are any other suggestions of things I can try, please let me know. Maybe the scan tomorrow will turn up a hint when I am with Steve, but it sure feels like the module is misbehaving.

Thanks to all who have contributed to the hunt to date.

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If Steve is willing, you might try just swapping the controller with his and see if yours goes into learning mode.


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## jac1d (Oct 18, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> If Steve is willing, you might try just swapping the controller with his and see if yours goes into learning mode.


Good idea. Unfortunately the TPMS module from Steve's Airbus won't work, it wasn't his car he was piloting on his way here. 

I just got the invoice from the dealer that shows the tire shop they used did bill them almost $535 for four "434Mhz TPMS sensors, stems + Labour" for my VIN. I always believed them, but nice to have the paperwork for the file.

Since the car isn't going in to TPMS learning mode, I don't think the new sensors are implicated. I think I have a bad control module and it isn't worth replacing. We'll see what the scan shows, but I think I'm going to let the dealer off the hook. They've been good in the process. Unfortunately, I agreed to a price based on this being fixed, but as a business owner I also think it is stretching it to pound the table and insist they replace a module I fear may only fail again in the near future (since it has already been replaced once and given the stories here).

-Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You can get a new controller for about $450 from one of the discount sites. Alternatively, you can code the CAN gateway to remove the controller, that will get rid of the dashboard warning. You might also pick up the controller used, there are occasionally parts on Ebay from breakers.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

UPDATE on TPMS sensors -

I ordered these http://www.titantpms.com/tpms/volks...-pressure-sensor-set-433-mhz-chrome-9800537_2 
141 US dollars - free shipping - I sent to US place where I bought snow tires.
They installed them, plus tires on new wheels, I never saw the sensors at all - the tires were mounted already when I go there. 

anyway, I drove away, having no idea if they would work, I pressed the reset button on the TPMS screen... and drove away. 

a short while later.... magic... the dash light went out, and the screen declares everything OK!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I posted about good-value BE-001 TPMS sensors from Kipoint in Taiwan a couple of years ago. They have been serving me well, until a garage disturbed the one of the rubber seals and it started leaking air.

However, I see that they are still on eBay, but now marked as having 1~2 years life. I conclude that, since Kipoint have transferred their TMPS marketing to a new company called Oro-Tek who renamed the part OBE-001, they are clearing out the original unsold stock in the Kipoint warehouse, with the original batteries.

The product is good, works well and the price point is fine, as long as folks read the small print about the reduced service life.

Chris


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*About to replace sensor(s)*

Hello all!

I have a question, but first some background:

I have 3 of the aftermarket Oro Tek sensors and have mixed feelings about them. About 2 years ago, after I had previously replaced 2 of my old OEM sensors with the same expensive OEM Huf/Beru orange ones, it was then time to replace the other 3, so I took a chance and saved some money with these Oro Teks (as mentioned above) from this site: http://www.titantpms.com/tpms/volkswagen-phaeton-2003-2006 . At first they all worked fine, but for the past 6 months, one of the Oro Tek's has been faulting; causing me to reset the TPMS system quite frequently. I suspect it’s a prematurely failing sensor battery. My Ross Tech VCDS tool has identified which one is failing, but these after-market Oro Tek sensors DO NOT transmit the accurate “months remaining” on the battery, but rather just display a constant default reading of “80” months. So, I am going to replace this defective one, and maybe the other two also, and am thinking I might go back to the OEM Huf/Beru again, since I want reliable sensors and I do like knowing approximately how much battery life remains when they are scanned. FYI - I too replaced my TPMS controller (the one in the trunk above the left battery) several years ago and the car was coded by my tech to accept the new suffix for the new part number. 

Anyway, I found a very good price on these HUF/BERU sensors on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281614081489?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT , but if you read the item description, the reason they are inexpensive is that they are “uncoded”. (It also says it is not compatible with the Phaeton, but I have found that such compatibility programs on Ebay are oftentimes wrong, because of the rarity of our cars). Anyway, the question is, does anyone know if the "coding" or "configuration" to which they refer (and which they say MUST be done “PRIOR TO INSTALLATION”) is something that can be done with my ROSS TECH VCDS tool, or if there’s more to it than that, which requires my tech’s involvement? Should I just get another Oro Tek and be done with it? Or pay up and pay the $100 or so for the already coded Huf/Beru ones? Any suggestions? Comments? Similar situations? Thanks again guys.

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Ron,

Lately, TPMS sensor manufacturers have changed from making different hardware modules for each car to using a single type of hardware or, rather, two types, one for 433MHz and one for 315MHz. These must be programmed by a tech before fitting, to match the protocol used by the vehicle.

They can either program each wheel to simulate a new OEM sensor, which will require the car to re-learn its TPMS, or if the outgoing sensors still work they can clone them, so that the TPMS doesn't see any difference.

The advantage is that even small tyre shops can afford to stock a dozen pieces of TPMS Sensor module and buy the $500 programmer which, with TPMS now being mandatory in many areas, will help them to not turn away business. Before, traders needed to invest several thousands in stocking many different types of units, each with a slowly-expiring shelf-life.

A major player is Bartec, who supply production systems to GM, Chrysler and Hyundai amongst others, and have more than 100,000 Sensor Programmer units out with tyre shops in North America. They have a contract relationship with Schrader, who manufacture sensor hardware under the name 'EZ-Sensor'.

Another sensor manufacturer is Huf, who supply OEMs such as VW, Maserati, Bentley, Renault and Chrysler. Bartec programmers have now been updated to handle HUF's own programmable TPMS Sensors, called 'Intellisens'. Here's the Huf database page for looking up the correct part number: http://products.intellisens.com/


*Schrader EZ-Sensor (programmable)*










*Huf IntelliSens (programmable)*










So, I think you can order either Schrader or Huf TPMS sensors with confidence for most cars. However, neither Huf nor Schrader yet offer programmable sensors for the 433MHz Phaeton, and the eBay link you quote does not list the sensor as being compatible with the Phaeton.

Just out of interest, here's Huf's installation guidance document for programmable TPMS sensors, for the use of tyre shops: Tips and Techniques for the Installation

Chris


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Tpms sensor replacement options - limited!*

Thanks Chris!



So, to sum up, these new "universal" sensors, which can be coded on-site for a wide variety of cars, have made it much easier for the repair shops and the consumer, EXCEPT they are not compatible for our Phaetons (pre-2007 model). Why am I not surprised?! :laugh: I assume this is because our cars (and some others), are among those which used the earliest TPMS technology?


Therefore, if I understand this correctly, we are left with little choice but to stick with the OEM Huf (formely Beru) model# RDE001 433Mhz (typically around $100 or so including the RDV1 valve), or else buy one of the few compatible aftermarket versions, such as the Oro-Tek (about $55 including valve), as I (and others) mentioned earlier? 

If so, then I guess for those of us who still want a fully working TPM system in our cars, it's comes down to whether we want to save about $45 per sensor, by sacrificing the battery life readout feature.


Please correct me if I've misstated any of the above. Again, many thanks for the information.



Best regards,
Ron M.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I bought the cheap ones in ~2009, and they're still working fine. Maybe you just got a bad batch?


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

invisiblewave said:


> I bought the cheap ones in ~2009, and they're still working fine. Maybe you just got a bad batch?


I think you're probably right. In fact, I suspect it's just that one (of the 3 Oro Tek's) is bad, so I'll start there and replace it, and see if that does the trick. Thanks for the reassurance. 

Best, 
Ron


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

Just to add more to the TPMS discussion for anyone still looking for sensors, just replaced dead OEM sensors with a set of EON's, and after recoding the spare tire out of the system, they have been working perfect. I was holding my breath on the first attempt to relearn! I have a Rev G controller and it saw the sensors and relearns every time in about 10 minutes. They ran $145 for the set of 4, come complete with all the hardware, and were manufactured in March of this year. I check tire pressures pretty regularly so didn't really see the need for the system, but now that it is working I really like it, I just hated pushing the button and seeing no data!

John


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## Aceswild (Mar 21, 2016)

*TPMS*

So I searched and nothing but really old posts. 

Does anyone have exact part number?

Is it 315hz or 433hz ? Or is it something I have to find out, if so how.

Id prefer to buy them online rather then at tire shop. I have a split valve stem they say cant be refilled or even checked and my tpms was already not working so figure it time.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

There are posts in the forum with the mhz, I think it's 433 but I can't remember for sure. You don't need a part number, the cheap ones work just fine and they're about a tenth of the price. VW part is about $140 each.


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## Aceswild (Mar 21, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> There are posts in the forum with the mhz, I think it's 433 but I can't remember for sure. You don't need a part number, the cheap ones work just fine and they're about a tenth of the price. VW part is about $140 each.


Sounds good I will get the bargain ones then.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

I have a somewhat different take on the TOMS transmitters: a couple of years ago when it was time to replace mine because three out of five were approaching the end of their battery life (Per the VCDS readings) I found the original OEMs (made by Beru in Germany) at the tirerack for $80 each and was very happy with them. Keep in ind that they are not listed on their web site, but if you speak with a sales rep they will know immediately the correct ones for the Phaeton.

Another potential source of trouble can be the TPMS controller itself: I did have to replace mine once about three years ago but it was paid for by my extended warranty. The symptom was its inability to recognize two of the five transmitters, despite their batteries being fine: the new controller resolved the problem immediately.

Finally regarding the valve stems: I too experienced this problem, and had to replace two of them over the years. Here too I found identical ones at the Tirerack and actually always keep a couple of spares with me. It's really easy to break the top tenth of an inch of thread when using a gas station or tire shock compressed air chuck: this type of chuck typically has an inner thread that damages the outer thread of the valve stem. I bought an un-threaded on for my compressor and it works very well.
Stefano


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Read the old threads. The information is still relevant. Our TPMS systems are the same as when they were built in 2004~2006. Ours are 433 MHz. 

The controller has the frequency printed on the cover if you want to check it quickly. It also has the type of sensor printed on it. 

The valve stems are separate and are recommended to be replaced with the sensors and some tire stores recommend you replace them any time you get a tire mounted and balanced. (Like during a flat repair or when putting on snow tires.) 

If you look up "VW Phaeton TPMS" on eBay, you will see the sensors and valve stem sets. 

I think tire web sites also have information. Look at Tire Rack or Discount Tire's web sites.


I got OEM ones from eBay. (Beru or Huf)

A German seller was selling them in sets of 4. I got another one from a seller in the U.S. so I replaced all 5 in my 1st Phaeton at once with OEM. I think they were also around $80.00 a piece. 

My VW dealer installed them for me. My local tire chain store would only install their own TPMS sensors.


If you are mounting your own tires it doesn't matter. If you are getting them mounted and balanced somewhere else, you should find out what their policy is regarding using parts you bring in yourself.

-Eric


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

They are 433.. 

Www.oewheelsllc.com is one source, cheapest Titan ones were flakey, 
I now have EON SENSORS.. THEY SEEM to work so far.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

For OEM:

The type of sensor needed is marked on the controller right across from where it says 12V. 

The frequency is below that.

Good luck.

-Eric


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## Aceswild (Mar 21, 2016)

cbh123 said:


> They are 433..
> 
> Www.oewheelsllc.com is one source, cheapest Titan ones were flakey,
> I now have EON SENSORS.. THEY SEEM to work so far.


Do I need to buy 5 for the warning to go away?


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

I have had the EON's from OEWHEELS for about 9 months now with no problem running on a G model TPMS controller. Very happy with them. 

I only bought 4 and then programmed the system to not read the spare, it is also another reason to get the VCDS. Just make sure when you tell the system to learn the new pressures the tires are "first thing in the morning cold" and you run it long enough to get them up to temperature (~20 min at highway speed). You do not need the installer to "program" the sensors, when they see pressure for the first time they activate and then the car learns them and builds a map of pressure and temperature when you hit the "learn new pressure" function

John


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

RocketVol said:


> I have had the EON's from OEWHEELS for about 9 months now with no problem running on a G model TPMS controller. Very happy with them.
> 
> I only bought 4 and then programmed the system to not read the spare, it is also another reason to get the VCDS. Just make sure when you tell the system to learn the new pressures the tires are "first thing in the morning cold" and you run it long enough to get them up to temperature (~20 min at highway speed). You do not need the installer to "program" the sensors, when they see pressure for the first time they activate and then the car learns them and builds a map of pressure and temperature when you hit the "learn new pressure" function
> 
> John


John,

I have a question on your coding. What sort of warning do you get if a tire is low?

My car might not be typical, so I am interested in what would be normal.

-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Aceswild said:


> Do I need to buy 5 for the warning to go away?


No, but you'd need to change the coding on the controller using VCDS to remove the spare.


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

Hi Eric

When normal I see "OK" at each wheel position, when low I get the yellow symbol in the Y24 cluster display and a triangle on the specific low wheel on the TPMS display, and when too low I will get the red alert for a "flat tyre" in the cluster. The only thing that is different on the 4 versus 5 tire coding is I do not see the spare tire symbol on the TPMS display. I will get pictures of the alerts tonight and post them up.

Here is how mine is coded (NAR V8 no spare):

Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: None
Part No: 3D0 907 273 G
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0026 
Coding: 0410304
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000

VCID: 2A5B3D9786761E6E00-515E



No fault code found.


John


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The behaviour of the system varies depending on the controller. The newer revision levels are more sophisticated in their reporting, the original one is pretty crude. They're also much faster to read the pressures when you reset.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

RocketVol said:


> Hi Eric
> 
> When normal I see "OK" at each wheel position, when low I get the yellow symbol in the Y24 cluster display and a triangle on the specific low wheel on the TPMS display, and when too low I will get the red alert for a "flat tyre" in the cluster. The only thing that is different on the 4 versus 5 tire coding is I do not see the spare tire symbol on the TPMS display. I will get pictures of the alerts tonight and post them up.
> 
> ...


John,

Mine are both the same part number and software revision as yours.

My 1st one had the fuse removed and it was recoded for 4 tires when I got it. It's possible that the coding was incorrect. It's a W12 and was coded 0210304.

When it was coded for 4 tires, this is what would be displayed if I had a low tire: I would get the red alert in the instrument cluster and a YELLOW triangle with an exclamation point on each of the four tires. I would get that for a low tire even if it was the spare that was low. 

I spent several minutes checking all of my tires one cold night on an unfamiliar road because the warning suddenly appeared. It's possible that my system panicked because it realized it was winter, but this was after driving for several miles so the tires should have been warmed up. I finally checked the spare and it was low. 

As I said before, mine might not be normal. My results seem atypical. 

Are you going to lower pressure in one tire to get pictures of the alerts? If so, could you lower the pressure in the spare to see if you get any indications?

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> The behaviour of the system varies depending on the controller. The newer revision levels are more sophisticated in their reporting, the original one is pretty crude. They're also much faster to read the pressures when you reset.


Which ones read the pressure faster?

Mine are both G revisions with 026 software. My 1st one takes at least a half hour to learn and the 2nd one learns within about 5 minutes. 

-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know. I think I'm on my third, and I know it's a lot better than the previous two. Mine also takes around 5 minutes to sort itself out.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I remember Michael writing in one of the old threads that the older controllers were more fault tolerant. I think he said something like "In this case, newer is not better". (They allowed a greater range of pressures before sounding the alarm.)

There are some old controllers on eBay. I might try one of them.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

LOL. Ok.


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> John,
> 
> Mine are both the same part number and software revision as yours.
> 
> ...



Hi Eric

Here is what I found out in pictures. Yes I did lower the pressure in the left front and triggered the alerts you see below. I also lowered it in the spare, but saw no reaction or change in the system at all. I know that sensor is dead.

Initial display - All Nominal









After dropping pressure ~5-6 psi


















I could not clear the red warning in the Y24, so I turned the car off and then back on and here is what I got:



















This surprised me as now I had errors on all tires. Also notice the warning triangles are different on this page than on the alert page. I also got a message after a few seconds that said that there were sensor errors. Not what I wanted to see or was expecting. I added air back into the tire and everything reset on its own and came back normal. I thought I was supposed to get an intermediate warning at around a 2-3 psi loss but never saw it. It went right to "flat tyre" I tried it on a rear tire and got the same response. In a previous experiment I lowered the tire down to about 10 psi and never got a red triangle in the center display and ran out of time to try it tonight. Will give it a look tomorrow to see if I can get the red triangle

Hope this helps

John


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

John, 

I realize by looking at your pictures that I probably didn't get red indicators on the infotainmet screen, but just what you have. 

I was thinking of the red indicator in the Y24. 

-Eric


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*Moderation note:*

I appended Brock's thread "TPMS" to this main thread, since it contains helpful photos of some typical warning scenarios.

Chris


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## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

Hello all,

I am having a bit of trouble coding my TPMS to monitor 5 sensors now that I got a sensor in my spare. My 'equipment number' is in the 580000's and vcds will only accept a number up to around 262000. I somewhat remember coding it to 4 to use the system and verify complete functioning when I put 4 new wheel sensors in (but not the fifth as I did not change the spare), and recently broke a wheel and needed the spare rim, so I put a new sensor on the replacement. So, this is confusing me. Can anybody offer any insight? Is it OK to trash this equipment number, as it does not look like I could put it back where it is if I code it to some random value or 000000? Did a new version of vcds change the way it thinks about equipment number, or add that? I do not really know of any use for that number...


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## Tedo (Apr 20, 2015)

Hi,

I've encountered the same problem. Since I was in a hurry I’ve just typed some random number. And now it works just fine. Workshop number is now different, but it doesn’t matter.

I had problems with aftermarket TPMS sensors. When the car was stationary, everything worked. As soon the speed went over 100 km/h, the communication with TPMS was lost in all four tires. (“Kein Signal” was reported on all four sensors while moving).

Now I bought the original ones (HUF) and it’s working normally. Well, except for one rear tire that sometimes still drops the signal. (I’m suspecting that there may be some problems with one of the antennas)


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm planning ahead to next winter. As my new-to-me MY14 GP3 has TPMS in it, I'd like to put sensors in my winter wheels - which are Champion rims from a GP0. As I've never seen a TPMS sensor in the flesh... do they just fit straight in? And how do I know what kind to get? It seems there might be enough variation to **** this up.....

Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks

M


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The frequency is the important thing, I wouldn't know what a MY that new takes..... To fit them, I think they're just held in place with the valve stem, they sit against the inside of the rim.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I believe the newer ones are 315 MHz.


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

*new tires and TPMS sensors*

I am getting 4 new tires and 5 new TPMS sensors now. Maybe a new battery or two also. At the last service (10K miles ago), dealer said the TPMS sensors were working, but could not get the actual TPMS system fixed. So for 10K miles, I have seen the yellow TPMS error light. Then, about 5K ago, after driving about 5 minutes, the FLAT TYRE red light came on for the duration of that particular trip. No matter how short or long it went after shutting off, it showed the Red Flat tyre error again, after driving about 5 minutes more...... This has not bugged me that much, other than after the Flat Tyre error appears, it takes the center display out-of-use---really aggravating when using the nav system (although the large nav screen still worked.) 

Tim

Cost at VW Dealer: 4 new Continental tires (balance/alignment), 5 new TPMS sensors, 1 new AGL (driver) battery, 100K service = $3,700. Drivability = priceless!!


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## Harism (Jan 2, 2016)

Will TPMS Modul from 2004 vw touareg v8 work on my 2004 phaeton v8?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

Hi.
Has anyone tried to use TPMS-caps?
In Sweden we use 433.92 MHz, and they can be obtained from Ebay. But do they work protocoll-wise on Phaeton? 
Wiken 😊 

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Harism said:


> Will TPMS Modul from 2004 vw touareg v8 work on my 2004 phaeton v8?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


Probably. What's the model number on it?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Harism
> Will TPMS Modul from 2004 vw touareg v8 work on my 2004 phaeton v8?


Hi Haris,

Michael (PanEuropean) tried a Touareg TPMS controller in his NAR W12 a few years ago but it did not work. Of course, it could have been faulty, or the wrong frequency.

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Has anyone tried to use TPMS-caps?
> In Sweden we use 433.92 MHz, and they can be obtained from Ebay. But do they work protocoll-wise on Phaeton?
> Wiken 😊


Hi Wiken,

Do you mean the type of TPMS sensor that screws on to the valve stem externally, with the electronics outside the wheel? I assume you don't just mean the titanium valve covers that prevent dust entering the valve...

Chris


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## Harism (Jan 2, 2016)

I don't know model number but i will take it out to see it, i think that there is possibility that vw use same parts in other models that will work in phaeton, just my opinion 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Harism (Jan 2, 2016)

What i can see only part number is different but same frequently and same transmiter rdks/re

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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Harism said:


> What i can see only part number is different but same frequently and same transmiter rdks/re
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


If you can get it cheaply or free, you can give it a try.

Here are some modules on eBay. They aren't the cheapest, but they show the labels:

Here's a Bentley (Phaeton) module on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bentley-Tir...ash=item3f5831aa12:g:0O4AAOSwbdpWXbZm&vxp=mtr

Notice it says "to be used in conjunction with transmitter TSSRE.."

Here's a Touareg module on eBay:

EDIT: That one is sold and the pictures are gone. Here's another: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Genuin...ash=item4d4742538d:g:RK0AAOSwAPlXhrJG&vxp=mtr

Notice it says "to be used in conjunction with transmitter RDKS/RE"

They both say they are RDKS/SG.

If the Touareg one works, that would be great. 

Why do you suspect the TPMS module?

-Eric


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## Harism (Jan 2, 2016)

Because my tpms is not working

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

Paximus said:


> Hi Wiken,
> 
> Do you mean the type of TPMS sensor that screws on to the valve stem externally, with the electronics outside the wheel? I assume you don't just mean the titanium valve covers that prevent dust entering the valve...
> 
> Chris


Yes Chris, that's the one. 
The idea was to buy a sensor that the battery can be replaced on.

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Harism said:


> Because my tpms is not working
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


What are the symptoms?

Sent from my laptop using me typing.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Harism said:


> What i can see only part number is different but same frequently and same transmiter rdks/re
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


It's simple enough to check, access is easy, just plug it in and see.


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## Harism (Jan 2, 2016)

Symptoms are tpms fault and i just find someone put tpms module from touareg but i don't know is this module faulty or is not working in phaetons









Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Harism said:


> Symptoms are tpms fault and i just find someone put tpms module from touareg but i don't know is this module faulty or is not working in phaetons
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


So, are you saying that you think this is a Touareg module and it was in your Phaeton when you bought it? And now you want to know if that's why your TPMS doesn't work?

See post # 273 of this thread. 


Did you inflate all tires to the pressures on the door card? Inflate the spare to the same pressure as the back tires.

Try that first and hit "New spec. pressures" then hit "Confirm" and drive it until it says it's OK or faults out. 

-Eric


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## Harism (Jan 2, 2016)

I try everything and it just not workings and yes this module wes in my car when i bought it 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*Moderation Note:*

Photos re-hosted where possible.

Chris


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Playing Whack-a-Mole with TPMS*

My new-to-me Phaeton had a dead LCD panel in the instrument cluster when I bought it. The moment I had it repaired and plugged it back in, there were lots of new warning lights to marvel at and challenges to fill my Saturdays for many months to come.

One of them is the TMPS warning light. As all the tire pressures were fine, I was focusing on the other more urgent lights. However, Saturday morning I came down to a "Flat Tyre!" warning on the dash. The right rear tire was low, so I took it off to check for a leak. (I just had four brand new tires installed less than a month ago.) In my leak investigation I found a small hairline crack in the rim that I plan to have repaired locally.

What I also noticed was that this was the only tire with a rubber valve stem, leading me to suspect this is the cause of my warning light. (By the way VCDS had a stored code for TPMS Control Module Fault that I suspect was related to the previous owner letting the left battery discharge. After clearing it a couple times, it has not come back.) I tried to reset the pressures but the panel says "learning" but never seems to learn very much. Also I am wondering how the system knew I had a flat tyre when the tyre that was flat had a rubber valve stem and presumably no TPMS sensor, but anyway... 

I followed the Ross-Tech Wiki procedure of letting 10-12 psi out of each tire quickly to "wake up" the sensors. I guess they all woke up because VCDS Measuring Blocks 004, 007, 010, and 013 all registered the correct (low) pressure of 1.80 bar (25 psi). Measuring Block 001, which I assume was for the left rear with the rubber stem, said something like "Not Available". When I pumped them back up to 40 psi, 4 of the 5 registered (correctly) between 2.80 and 2.83 bar. (Again measuring Block 001 was not available.)

As I scanned through, the measuring blocks with the next higher number to the pressure/temperature readings (that is 005, 008, 011, and 014) read "0 months". Is that telling me that the batteries for these four sensors are at the end of or past their useful lives?

Several questions:
1. I found a set of 4 aftermarket (Mobiletron) TPMS sensors for just under $100. Should I replace just the one on the wheel that I will be having repaired and let the others go for now as they seem to be sending a signal? Replacing the other 3 would obviously involve the expense of removing and then remounting/rebalancing the brand new tires. (I don't care about the spare and I believe I can disable it through VCDS.)
2. I read a couple posts about using VCDS to convert from a "direct" system which this one is, to an "indirect" system that uses wheel speed and wheel speed differential to detect decreasing tire pressure. Is that possible (and fairly simple) to do and would you recommend it? If not, why not?

Looking for advice on the next step. Thanks in advance.

Paul


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If the others are working, I'd just replace the one and do the others at the next tyre change, which, being a Phaeton, won't be long in coming! I don't know of any way to achieve your second question.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Below are the VCDS instructions for enabling the indirect TPMS through the ABS module (03) and disabling direct TPMS through the Tire Pressure module (65). My guess is the older ABS module in the '04 Phaeton is not capable, but I may give it a try: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/tpms-activation-reset-and-disable-coding-with-vcds-mk6-vw/

Was I right that the Measuring Blocks that are showing "0 Months" are displaying the remaining battery life?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the direct monitoring! I'm not sure why people have so much trouble with it, so long as the coding is right and the tyre pressures are correct, it works very well, most problems are sensor battery-related, or failure of the older controllers.

Yes, the 0 months is battery life. Not sure how accurate it is though. Evidently not that accurate since yours are still working!


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> Below are the VCDS instructions for enabling the indirect TPMS through the ABS module (03) and disabling direct TPMS through the Tire Pressure module (65). My guess is the older ABS module in the '04 Phaeton is not capable, but I may give it a try: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/tpms-activation-reset-and-disable-coding-with-vcds-mk6-vw/
> 
> Was I right that the Measuring Blocks that are showing "0 Months" are displaying the remaining battery life?


I was talking about TPMS systems with my favorite VW service advisor once. He told me that newer VWs like his Jetta uses a speed ring like the ABS ring (maybe it's the same ring) to measure the rotational speed of the wheel to determine if a tire is lower than the others. There are no sensors in the wheel.


I wouldn't hack the ABS controller. The link you posted mentioned two things: 

Expensive VWs like the Touareg still use direct system (at the time it was written) and he didn't think anybody converted from a direct system like ours to an indirect system.

That thread seems to be for Canadian-market cars that had the indirect TPMS system but it was "hidden" due to it not being a requirement for the Canadian market.


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## owluldith (May 11, 2018)

If the TPMS system comes with a signal booster, install it even if you think you won't need it. It is better to have the best signal possible when towing and not wonder. Specially if you are monitoring a spare tire with a rear mount such as the bumper mount.

TireMinder currently has a free battery and O-ring exchange program through 2022. You can get new batteries and o-rings for the battery cover/cap each year for all the sensors you have with your system.

The system I have is the TM66 sold by CampingWorld which is the same as the A1A TireMinder system https://mechanicguides.com/best-tire-pressure-systems/. I monitor 12 tire sensors since my DRW truck does not have a factory TPMS system. I have sensors on my truck and trailer spare tires to avoid crawling under either to check them with a gauge.

I considered the smartphone upgrade to the TireMinder but for now, I am satisfied with the independent TPMS monitor. A TPMS system is well worth the investment. I can check the tire pressures prior to a trip even if the trip is around town or on the next adventure towing the trailer.

I did have the TPMS save my butt last september when one of the metal valve stem nuts worked loose and lost enough pressure to set off the alarm. I was able to put over on the interstate and tighten the nut. Since the pressure loss was minimal and only enough to set off the alarm, I proceed to the next exit to pump up the tire.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I thought I had a bad sensor recently so I bought a new one on eBay from Tire Rack.

The warning came on with 8486 and it would not learn new pressures. The previous owner had replaced the 4 sensors before I bought it but didn't think the spare tire had a sensor.

VCDS said the spare had 0 months left while the other sensors had 33 months left. I swapped spares with 7579 but that didn't help. It still wouldn't learn new pressures and all tires showed learning (warnings can not be shown temporarily). The system never faulted out but it never started working either.

I swapped the spares back and 7579 said its original spare was good but the right front was flat. I didn't have the compressor with me that day so I left it as is and put the original spare back in 8486.

I took 8486 to the dealer with the new TPMS sensor so they could install it. I told the service advisor that I originally thought it was the spare because the previous owner didn't replace its sensor and VCDS told me the spare was bad but nothing changed when I swapped spares with my other Phaeton.

Over an hour later, he came to me and told me the technicians thought the controller was bad and that all sensors tested good. I paid the diagnostic fee and told him I would swap controllers on the way home.

I grabbed the controller out of 7579 on the way home. They are both G revs "to be used in conjunction with transmitter TSSRE..."

It took a while of driving around town (should have just hit I-15) but my TPMS did come back alive after changing the controller.

I didn't believe it would work and I am as surprised as anybody that it did. I apparently have a bad TPMS controller. I ordered a used G rev exactly the same on eBay to replace the "bad" one. I haven't decided if I am going to put the "bad" one back in to see if it will magically work again but am just happy that the TPMS on 8486 is working again.

I may do a search online to see if anybody repairs TPMS controllers.

Anyhow, I just proved that TPMS controllers do go bad or at least go rogue and refuse to work.

-Eric


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## GuyPaddick (Jun 20, 2018)

I don't have TPMS in mine but was thinking of retrofitting it. I've also seen that there are aftermarket options that work with android/iOS apps. Seeing that I have set up the tablet android display in my car I was looking at getting a set to link into there rather than spend £300+ on the OEM system that may well be worse at 16 year old technology. 

Has anybody had thoughts on this?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Anyhow, I just proved that TPMS controllers do go bad or at least go rogue and refuse to work.


Hi Eric,

I got fed up with a TPMS controller revision D that sometimes refused to learn. I swapped it out with a used part with an older revision B and have had no trouble since (6 years ago).

I have a suspicion that they changed the software algorithms between revisions, but I do not know what the specifications are. The revision B requires a reset each spring and autumn, so perhaps later revisions changed that behaviour.

It is a complex system compared with the current variety, in which the tyre size air volume is measured during learning by monitoring the rate of heat increase, given the ambient, to then set up calculation parameters which work out how responsive it should be to subsequent rates of change of pressure. It tries to distinguish between a slow puncture and a flat tyre and issue different warnings.

That is presumably why we have to start out learning when cold (after an overnight rest, generally, according to Michael's advice) and ideally hit a section of 50mph highway before learning can be completed.

Good that you have discovered your problem, in any case!

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> I don't have TPMS in mine but was thinking of retrofitting it. I've also seen that there are aftermarket options that work with android/iOS apps. Seeing that I have set up the tablet android display in my car I was looking at getting a set to link into there rather than spend £300+ on the OEM system that may well be worse at 16 year old technology.


Hi Guy,

This sounds a very interesting project. Have you made a communications choice yet? I see that Bluetooth or USB are two of the options. Does it depend on which monitoring App your Android supports?

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Controllers definitely go bad. I'm on my third. If you're on a G revision, Eric, warm it up. Mine throws faults every winter, it's currently in fault mode now. Warm it up, reset the fault (it may take 3 or 4 tries), and the pressures will immediately be shown. There are minor differences in behaviour between the D & G, the G is much faster to recognize the pressures after a reset. I did recently try the controller from a 2008 S4 with no luck, it was cheap and has the same serial number (other than the model designation), as well as the same connector, but the car won't see it.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> Controllers definitely go bad. I'm on my third. If you're on a G revision, Eric, warm it up. Mine throws faults every winter, it's currently in fault mode now. Warm it up, reset the fault (it may take 3 or 4 tries), and the pressures will immediately be shown. There are minor differences in behaviour between the D & G, the G is much faster to recognize the pressures after a reset. I did recently try the controller from a 2008 S4 with no luck, it was cheap and has the same serial number (other than the model designation), as well as the same connector, but the car won't see it.


Hi.
Can it be a bad solder, since it needs to be warmed? 
Wiken 

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk


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## GuyPaddick (Jun 20, 2018)

Paximus said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> This sounds a very interesting project. Have you made a communications choice yet? I see that Bluetooth or USB are two of the options. Does it depend on which monitoring App your Android supports?
> 
> Chris


Hi Chris,


I did some more research today and this is what I have bought. They are dust caps that hold batteries and connect via Bluetooth. The batteries are good for ~400 days and can be replaced. It has a nice UI and will send alerts for slow puncture, fast puncture, over inflation etc. It records both pressure and temperature in real time and was considerably cheaper and easier than installing the stock system, plus I can move them to another car if I ever need.

I did a write up of my tablet/head unit-ish set up here if you're interested.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

gwiken65 said:


> Hi.
> Can it be a bad solder, since it needs to be warmed?
> Wiken
> 
> Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk


That's what I thought. I got my soldering iron out and touched up all the dodgy-looking connections (there were several), but didn't make any difference.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> That's what I thought. I got my soldering iron out and touched up all the dodgy-looking connections (there were several), but didn't make any difference.


Do you have a microscope?
It would be very interesting to see if there are any microscopic defects on the board.
The problem is that some of them might be under any chip, and it must be x-rayed.
Or a via in the board itself.
Cool, that you tried.
Wiken 

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> Controllers definitely go bad. I'm on my third. If you're on a G revision, Eric, warm it up. Mine throws faults every winter, it's currently in fault mode now. Warm it up, reset the fault (it may take 3 or 4 tries), and the pressures will immediately be shown. There are minor differences in behaviour between the D & G, the G is much faster to recognize the pressures after a reset. I did recently try the controller from a 2008 S4 with no luck, it was cheap and has the same serial number (other than the model designation), as well as the same connector, but the car won't see it.


I suspect you need to match the transmitters. Both of mine say "to be used in conjunction with transmitter TSSRE..." but I saw others on eBay that were to be used with other transmitters. Today it appears that all of the G revisions on eBay say TSSRE but other revisions don't.

Here's a D revision. It says "to be used in conjunction with transmitter RDKS/RE"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Volksw...h=item3d6f182c38:g:uXoAAOSwpEdbZKPr:rk:1:pf:0

I think if you decide to use a different revision, you have to change all of the sensors to match. The sensor I got from Tire Rack was a Huf TSSRE sensor. It was only $60.00. 

Both of my Phaetons have G revisions and they both fault out at the first cold snap. I check and inflate the tires and on 7579 it sometimes doesn't even need me to press the learning button. 7579 always took forever to learn if I did press the learning button. I tried swapping controllers before but 7579 didn't "like" the controller from 8486. 


Prior to this, the controller that was in 8486 would only take 5 minutes to learn on a local "highway" which has signal lights. If I had not scanned it with VCDS and been informed that the spare had 0 months left, I would have swapped controllers just to eliminate it. 

This is the second time I have had the dealer diagnose a fault on 8486 I should have caught. The first was bad trunk lid wiring I "knew" was good because the trunk lid worked perfectly right before I replaced the AGM battery. 

The TPMS controller that came out of 8486 is sitting on my DVR next to me in the end table right now. It's probably plenty warm. I guess I could try reinstalling it to see if it started working but I don't want to spend all day driving it if it doesn't work and I have to swap back. When I get the "new" used one from eBay I'll probably take a day to do some experimenting.

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Paximus said:


> Hi Eric,
> 
> I got fed up with a TPMS controller revision D that sometimes refused to learn. I swapped it out with a used part with an older revision B and have had no trouble since (6 years ago).
> 
> ...


Chris,

My revision G controllers have needed inflating tires (tyres) and resetting at the first cold snap also. 

Service advisors at my VW dealer have told me that most modern TPMS systems use the ABS system to "see" if a tire is low. Tires rotate at different speeds if they aren't as inflated. That ABS sensor wheel rotates at a different velocity than the one on the other side which triggers the TPMS system that "Houston, we have a problem". 

When I looked up TPMS several months ago, it said the "direct" method using wheel mounted sensors like ours were more accurate than "indirect" systems that piggyback off the ABS system. Cold comfort when they refuse to work


-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't think it's a transmitter problem with the Audi unit, it's 433mhz, but it faults out immediately, so I'm guessing the CAN protocols are different.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I noticed on eBay today that some brand new TPMS controllers for different VWs (that look identical to ours) can be bought for less than $100.00 new while used Phaaeton TPMS controllers are $150.00 or more. 

I even saw used Phaeton/Bentley controllers for over $400.00 on eBay. 

I think we could use controllers that require different transmitters if we changed all of the sensors to match as long as they are 433 Mhz but it would be a bit expensive to do without another reason (like new tires all around).

Perhaps we could even try 315 Mhz sensors and controller as long as the bus is the same. (Lower frequencies carry further.)

It would be good if we could get later Phaeton manuals to read up on the CAN bus and if components from newer Phaetons and Continentals are backwards-compatible.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> I don't think it's a transmitter problem with the Audi unit, it's 433mhz, but it faults out immediately, so I'm guessing the CAN protocols are different.


I think Phaetons and Bentleys up to around 2008 used the same bus protocol. So a D revision should work, CAN-wise anyway. 

EDIT, I see you were trying a 2008 TPMS controller so the bus may be different. 


When Tire Rack eBay shipped me the TPMS sensor it looked different so I sent them a message asking if it was the correct one. The one they sent originally was a 433 MHz Huf RDE012. I told them that my controller was a RDKS/SG. (This was before I remembered to check what sensors it "wanted".)

The person that replied to my eBay message wrote back that he would need to check with his TPMS person. They came back and said it was the wrong sensor. They sent me what their records say is the correct U.S. Phaeton TPMS sensor. It's a TSSRE sensor that matches what both of my controllers "say" they need. 

My old dead TPMS sensors that I saved are all TSSRE.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I suspect you need to match the transmitters. Both of mine say "to be used in conjunction with transmitter TSSRE..." but I saw others on eBay that were to be used with other transmitters. Today it appears that all of the G revisions on eBay say TSSRE but other revisions don't.
> 
> Here's a D revision. It says "to be used in conjunction with transmitter RDKS/RE"
> 
> ...


An update from last night:

I ended up buying two "new" used controllers from eBay that had all of the same exact wording on the label except the "Serien-Nr". One was from the U.S. and one was from a land far away. 

I drove the heck out of the first one to arrive from the U.S. and nothing worked. Then I thought "Duh, it probably needs recoding to W12" so I tried that and drove the heck out of it again. Still no joy. When the controller from a foreign land arrived ages later, I recoded it and went for a road trip also. No joy with it either. 

I was thinking of having the dealer try to get them to work but that would take a diagnostic fee and may not be successful. 

I sent a message to the first seller and he agreed to refund my money after they receive it and verify it's the one they sold me. 

A few days ago, I had the thought that perhaps I could find a refence to adapting them (besides hitting "learn new pressures"). I found it in post # 28 by some guy named Michael in this TPMS troubleshooting thread:

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...ooting-and-Problem-Solving-Difficulties/page2

The TPMS eBay controller from a far away land was currently installed so I tried setting the adaptation channel 1 to zero but it still had a controller dead fault. I swapped in the original controller and it was no longer faulted out but I set adaptation channel 1 to 0 and saved it anyway. I did the same for the other "new" used eBay controller and it took a few resets of the TPMS controller, the Comfort controller and the CAN Gateway (they all will report TPMS controller faults) but it also worked. The "new" used eBay controller was showing the same pressures as the original one from 8486, so I hit "Learn new pressures" and went on a road trip in 8486 with my HEX-CAN plugged in and the tablet I got from John in the left driver's seat pocket ready to reset the TPMS controller. I also grabbed the original controller for 8486. 

Well, about 10 minutes or so later, the "new" used eBay controller had learned the pressures and indeed they were different than the pressures from the original controller. I pulled over into a well-lit Home Depot parking lot and removed the fuse, verified the TPMS was dead, removed the "new" used controller, put the original back in and replaced the fuse. I got in and hit "learn new pressures" and before I hit the exit for my house the original TPMS controller for 8486 came online and reported the pressures. 

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> An update from last night:
> 
> I ended up buying two "new" used controllers from eBay that had all of the same exact wording on the label except the "Serien-Nr" One was from the U.S. and one was from a land far away.
> 
> -Eric


If I would have thought of checking for adaptation on my original controller, I could have saved money on a new sensor, and two "new" used TPMS controllers from eBay but at least I thought of it before buying a new new TPMS controller for $500.00+. (Cheapest online price from one of those bogus sites that show prices from different vendors with no working links). 

My lesson was expensive but ultimately valuable. I hope my memory doesn't fade before the next time I have TPMS controller "problems". 

Let's face it though, I probably would have bought at least two used TPMS controllers and a new one when they didn't work if I used a generic scanner. If new TPMS controllers need adaptation I would have probably been visiting the dealer to get it adapted to the car if I didn't have the adaptation capability in my scan tool. 

Even I would rather buy used instead of paying $700.00 for a new controller. (About the estimate from the parts department.)

So, in the end VCDS and my HEX-NET saved me over $500.00 last night. Even if it had showed no advantage before, last night it paid for itself. 

I wonder if the adaptation trick would bring other "dead" controllers back from the dead also. I got a trunk lid controller I gotta try that with next.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Final update for now:


When I started 8586 yesterday morning, the TPMS was faulted out again. I could not clear the faults in controller 65. After several tries I gave up and reset the TPMS controller faults in controller 46 and controller 19 but even those wouldn't clear the TPMS controller fault. This was a controller that worked great the night before. I finally did a auto scan and saved it then did a "Clear ALL DTCs" and when that new auto scan completed the TPMS returned to normal. I don't know what controller was hung up causing controller 65 to fault out but it was something in the bus. There was a disturbance in the Force. I shut off the engine and started it up again and the TPMS faulted out again. I took the car for the same run as the night I got it to work and it was still faulted out. I went shopping and after I was done I opened VCDS and reset controller 65 and this time it cleared right away and the TPMS came back to life with realistic pressures. I drove home like that and when I got to my house I shut off the car and removed the key and then started it up again. That time the TPMS continued working. 

I just got back in from playing with the TPMS on 8486. When I went out to the garage tonight, it was faulted out with the "good" eBay controller. I cleared the fault and it worked. I decided to check all of the controllers again. I put the controller from 7579 in and it worked right away. I put the original controller for 8486 in and it worked right away. I put the eBay controller from a distant land in and it didn't work. I could not clear the fault. I checked faults in 07, 19 and 46 and cleared any faults. I still couldn't clear the fault in 65. I ran an auto scan and printed it. I did a "Clear all DTCs" and the TPMS fault did not clear. I printed that scan also. I could not clear the TPMS fault individually either. 

I installed the "good" eBay controller and it worked right away. I put the original TPMS controller back in 8486 and will leave it that way and keep the "good" eBay TPMS controller as a spare. It will work given a nudge (reset) and will probably be fine once the temps come up. 

I don't think the odds favor me, but I am going to ask the seller if I can return the TPMS controller from a distant land for a refund. 

If I go out to 8486 tomorrow and the TPMS is faulted out, I can always install the controller for 7579 which has worked since I first swapped them and had it learn new pressures. I think it's a disturbance in the force (the CAN Bus).

One final note:

I checked the scans from yesterday and today and the following controllers report TPMS controller faults: 07, 17, 19, 46 and 65. I thought I saw 09 also but it's not in any of the scans I saved. Of course low voltage faults could also cause the TPMS or any module to glitch and fault out. 

-Eric


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## lelievre12 (Nov 25, 2015)

My TPMS has been reporting errors since I had the car. I changed the 3D0 907 273 controller from a B to a D to a G. Not helpful however the issues always happened in winter (wet winter), and always with a RR wheel error. So I suspected the antenna and ran a VAG check.

Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: Redir Fail!
Control Module Part Number: 3D0 907 273 D
Component and/or Version: Reifendruckueberw. 0025
Software Coding: 0411204
Work Shop Code: WSC 104772 131 183558
VCID: 2757E7349556A477C4-5140
3 Faults Found:


00003 - Control Module 
014 - Defective - MIL ON
01473 - Aerial for Monitoring Front Right Tire Pressure (R60) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent - MIL ON
01475 - Aerial for Monitoring Rear Right Tire Pressure (R62) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent - MIL ON

This error reset and doesn't come back.......unless it gets wet. So I am thinking I will replace these antennas and check the waterproofing around them.

Its a quick and easy job. All the antennas are located aft of their respective wheels. Simply remove the wheel, internal splash guard and the antennas come off with a single 10mm nut. Note the car only has 4 antennas. There is none for the spare.

Here are some photos:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eMax5pvs9y9EUc536

Note you can buy the antenna from a wrecker and it doesnt matter which one is which (RH, LH, front rear) the actual antenna can easily be swapped to whatever mount you need. Use the mount from your old antenna.

So far TPMS is working great! And no annoying orange fault lights on the dash.

I have no idea why the antenna's 'fail' however if the fix works, I'll pull them apart to see what is looking bad inside. My hunch is they get wet and corrode.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Final update for now:
> 
> 
> When I started 8586 yesterday morning, the TPMS was faulted out again. I could not clear the faults in controller 65. After several tries I gave up and reset the TPMS controller faults in controller 46 and controller 19 but even those wouldn't clear the TPMS controller fault. This was a controller that worked great the night before. I finally did a auto scan and saved it then did a "Clear ALL DTCs" and when that new auto scan completed the TPMS returned to normal. I don't know what controller was hung up causing controller 65 to fault out but it was something in the bus. There was a disturbance in the Force. I shut off the engine and started it up again and the TPMS faulted out again. I took the car for the same run as the night I got it to work and it was still faulted out. I went shopping and after I was done I opened VCDS and reset controller 65 and this time it cleared right away and the TPMS came back to life with realistic pressures. I drove home like that and when I got to my house I shut off the car and removed the key and then started it up again. That time the TPMS continued working. -Eric


That should be 8486, not 8586. Typo. 

Didn't think about this thread until lelievre12's post today.


The TPMS in 8486 has been dead reliable for several months now but it has the controller from 7579. 

I am going to send out one of the bad controllers to get it rebuilt. If that works, I'll send out the other one. 



-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

lelievre12 said:


> Its a quick and easy job. All the antennas are located aft of their respective wheels. Simply remove the wheel, internal splash guard and the antennas come off with a single 10mm nut. Note the car only has 4 antennas. There is none for the spare.


The spare apparently uses both rear antennas. You are supposed to point the Sensor (valve) forward so it is between both rear antennas. 




lelievre12 said:


> So far TPMS is working great! And no annoying orange fault lights on the dash.
> 
> I have no idea why the antenna's 'fail' however if the fix works, I'll pull them apart to see what is looking bad inside. My hunch is they get wet and corrode.


That's great that it fixed your TPMS problems. Thanks for your post. 

It gives us another suspect or perhaps a way to optimize out TPMS systems. 

I would not be surprised if the antennas get corroded. They do "live" outside after all. 

The first ones have been "outside" for 16 years or so now.

I plan to replace all of my TPMS antennas eventually. 

Thanks again.

-Eric


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## lelievre12 (Nov 25, 2015)

Unfortunately after behaving for a long time, my 2005 V8 Phaeton TPMS is again throwing a MIL each morning;

Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: Redir Fail!
Control Module Part Number: 3D0 907 273 G
Component and/or Version: Reifendruckueberw. 0026
Software Coding: 0410204
Work Shop Code: WSC 109895 638 173235
VCID: 2A511E008644991FDB-5124
2 Faults Found:


00003 - Control Module 
014 - Defective - MIL ON
01507 - Initialization Not Successful 
000 - - - Intermittent - MIL ON

If I clear the code then the module behaves fine all day and reads tire pressures and reports errors (such as a flat I had recently). Works perfectly! However the next day, will not initialize all over and needs the code cleared.


I have ordered some more modules on eBay and will report back. I am even going to try a 4D0 907 273 which is from an Audi. Should work right? Fingers crossed.


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## Tedo (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm going through almost the same problem as yours. If it's a bit cold overnight I will get the module defective error in the morning. Even if I left the battery charging. (so the problem doesn't occur due to low voltage). So I start the car, reset the error and module works just fine. Sometimes if it's really, really cold, it will show an error again after a minute or two. But eventually after a second reset with VCDS it will work. However, in the summer, I don't get an error at all.
The module is G revision, bought new in 2012. 
I suspect that something is related to temperature change. Maybe a faulty component, micro cracks in the PCB... haven't investigated yet. There are two PCBs riveted together. The top one is RF part and the bottom is the brain 
I also have the Audi module and "the brain" part is completely different. And of course it doesn't work.
I bought another G revision module from e-bay... but it always stays in defective mode.

Guess it's time to dig in the module and start debugging. If I have any luck, I will post it here


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Mine's been doing this for a couple of years. I tried a different controller that I got on Ebay and got the same thing, so I'm now thinking it's probably the sensor batteries, which on my car are pretty old. I've had the controller apart and checked all the solder joints, didn't make any difference. The temperature correlation would make perfect sense if the sensor batteries are weak.


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## lectricman (Dec 29, 2017)

My TPMS fault shows a "defective module" with the MIL on. Strange though that I can't delete the code and the MIL never goes out. The MVB's show 0 months left on each sensor so I'm sure I need new sensors. The strange thing is that the MVB's also show the PSI and temps of each wheel position. Now what I haven't done is compare the values given to the actual pressures in the tires. I wonder if they are old values stored from when the system was working properly, if ever. When I bought the car, the prior owner pulled the fuse and deleted the module from the system so I don't how long it's been down.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

This is identical to mine, the pressures are there but I think the batteries are dead. The MIL can be reset, but the temperature has to be >23C and it takes several attempts before it goes away. It's getting gradually worse on mine though, which is more evidence that it's just the sensor batteries.


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## lectricman (Dec 29, 2017)

Is there a difference between the TPMS fault symbol shown in the MFD and the symbol that also appears in the speedo gauge? Can both of these be cleared or just one?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

lelievre12 said:


> I have ordered some more modules on eBay and will report back. I am even going to try a 4D0 907 273 which is from an Audi. Should work right? Fingers crossed.


See post #351

I suspect you need to match the controller to the sensors (transmitters). If it worked before, the old one is the correct controller. If you get one for different transmitters you are probably going to need all new sensors to match. 

I have two correct used controllers I bought on eBay that don't work. That makes 3 dead controllers. I should send one or more out for repair. Sending the original flaky one out for repair would have saved me money in the long run. 

I am swapping my one good controller between Phaetons.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

lectricman said:


> Is there a difference between the TPMS fault symbol shown in the MFD and the symbol that also appears in the speedo gauge? Can both of these be cleared or just one?


Yes, the triangle warning is for low pressures, the fault is a fault. This is software though, ancient software. My suspicion is that the fault is caused by low sensor batteries with the G spec controller, rather than have you panic that you have a flat (which is what the older controllers do).


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