# Swap 3.6l VR6 into a MkIV?



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

I want the fastest VR6 all-motor car. Can this be swapped into a MkIV? How bout a MkII?
edit: Actually I just wanted to be the first idiot to post in this forum








Ha!


_Modified by phatvw at 11:06 AM 7-26-2005_


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## shellshock (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: Swap 3.6l VR6 into a MkIV? (phatvw)*

Motor should be mounted like a MK5 jetta/golf. Thats where i'd start to find answers.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Swap 3.6l VR6 into a MkIV? (shellshock)*

Yeah, I'm sure it can be done. This thing is just going to 0wn, I have a feeling http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I bet we will easily be able to get intot the 320-340 hp range NA, and I can't wait to see what it is like with some boost too... heh.


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## ElectroMike (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: Swap 3.6l VR6 into a MkIV? (PhReE)*

Wonder if it will fit into a MK2?!


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: Swap 3.6l VR6 into a MkIV? (ElectroMike)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ElectroMike* »_Wonder if it will fit into a MK2?!
















R32 engine fits a Mk2, so why not? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## eyec (Jan 18, 2005)

The transversly mounted version in the New Passat will be the hot ticket - can't wait till they start showing up in salvage yards. I wonder if the same engine in the Touareg will mount up using the mounts from a tranverse car (A3, A4 & Corrado)???


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## eyec (Jan 18, 2005)

I want to put one in a Cabrio!


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## Mr Johann Vegas (Jun 10, 2004)

The engine is a bit taller too, which for A1 and A2 guys, as well as anyone who wants to keep a wet-sump oiling system, may be a problem... Or I could be wrong.


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## Fugee (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Johann Vegas)*

I cant wait till I find a salvaged one..My next project is this motor in my MKIV http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (Zwei komma acht T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zwei komma acht T* »_I cant wait till I find a salvaged one..My next project is this motor in my MKIV http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

And I WANT onw to replace the tired 2.8 vr in my sciroco!!
But I can't imagine what this lump will fetch, even in a boneyard!!


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## Rabbit_Head (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: (nuugen)*

How much more does this engine way compared to the previous VRs?


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## MeiK (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: (Rabbit_Head)*

It said in the article 75lbs LESS... hrmmmmm http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## XenoLlama (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: (MeiK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MeiK* »_It said in the article 75lbs LESS... hrmmmmm http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

IIRC its an aluminum block now, no more iron lump.


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## ScottyRice (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: (XenoLlama)*

So is the block aluminum or iron?


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## Notabora2 (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (ScottyRice)*

The motor will fit without any problems. VW of Germany has already tested this motor in the MK4 Golf. There are about 15 of them here in Germany. I already found a place that has the motors for sale. I will be looking into doing a swap in about 5 months. I will most definitly have it chipped very soon after the install (2 or 3 months). I will contace ALi from Upsolute and probably drive to Austria to get the software loaded!


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (Notabora2)*

How much are you getting the motors for?? And I assume you will need the cluster for the IMMO, or are you doing standalone?


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## Notabora2 (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (nuugen)*

I am not sure if I will need the cluster. There is a company here in southern Germany that will do the swap. They are great. They swapped an RS4 block into a passat B5! I am not sure on the price yet but I will try and find out for you.


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## ElectroMike (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: (Notabora2)*

Just to give you guys an idea on motor costs, here in US, a new V8 Touareg motor alone (bare long block w/o the head) is about $18k from a dealer, R32 new motor is about $9.3k so I cannot even imagine the state prices on the new 3.6L blocks, since it's going to be hard finding a used block at this point.


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## Notabora2 (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (ElectroMike)*

Ur rite the block are expensive! Here in Germany you can find a used block with a warranty for under $4500. I will also have a club rebate of 15% and most likely I get about $1200 for my motor. This will reduce the price. I hope to be one of the first to do the swap! I need a new engine because the 2.8 12v vr6 is not enough power for the autobahn and I drive it daily.


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (ElectroMike)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ElectroMike* »_Just to give you guys an idea on motor costs, here in US, a new V8 Touareg motor alone (bare long block w/o the head) is about $18k from a dealer, R32 new motor is about $9.3k so I cannot even imagine the state prices on the new 3.6L blocks, since it's going to be hard finding a used block at this point.










Yeah I know these would be next to impossible in the states, I was just curious about his pricing on one from the company he was ordering from...


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Notabora2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Notabora2* »_Ur rite the block are expensive! Here in Germany you can find a used block with a warranty for under $4500. I will also have a club rebate of 15% and most likely I get about $1200 for my motor. This will reduce the price. I hope to be one of the first to do the swap! I need a new engine because the 2.8 12v vr6 is not enough power for the autobahn and I drive it daily. 

4500*0.85-1200=$2625 To upgrade to a 3.2L????? Where do I sign up??????

Somehow I don't think it'll end up being that cheap since you'll probably need more parts such as cluster, ECU, sensors, etc.
Have you considered a supercharger or turbocharger on the 12v rather than a whole new motor?


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## ElectroMike (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: (Notabora2)*

Those are some nice prices you got there, just to think I picked up a new 2.8L for $5300 and that's before Dr.Evil went to work on it!


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## Notabora2 (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Yes I have considdered they compressd air and I love the idea but I have a high mileage motor and have been living on the autobahn it whole life. Compressed air will eventually blow it up, when I can get similar HP with much more security! Also a charger will cost more then a 3.2 swap (in Germany)I love to mods the Jetta and this is a cool swap to do...IMO.


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## schnellmitklasse (Aug 28, 2005)

*Re: (Zwei komma acht T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zwei komma acht T* »_I cant wait till I find a salvaged one..My next project is this motor in my MKIV http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Bernard you are just crazy man! Your car would be a psycho death machine more than it already is!


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## Notabora2 (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (schnellmitklasse)*

I will call today and get a price for the 3.6 and the 3.2 including install with new tacho, climatronic + conversion and they buy my motor. I hope they hook my up with a good deal!


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (Notabora2)*

Heh DO take pics if you actually do this swp.


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## luftwaffe (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (Notabora2)*

hey bernard i am thinking of dooing the 3.6 liter swap into my 2000 glx . let me know the details I also want to run HPA' s twin turbo set up allong with the all wheel drive and six speed gear box. all of this will probably take me a couple of years to save up for but the shopping and the knowledge gained will be half the fun!


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## gehr (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: (luftwaffe)*

Hopefully by 2009 when I'll have about 300,000 miles on my VR, the 3.6 will be cheap to swap!


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## 03slvrstoned (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: (gehr)*

I'll sell ya mine for a cool 30k


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## Notabora2 (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (gehr)*

I am currently in Iraq now but when I return, i will be on a 3.6 hunt!


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (Notabora2)*

I'd love to put a 3.6L VR6 in my R. almost 300hp to start with and possible 380-400 with intake, exhaust, cams and tune..


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## R32Jetta (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (04RSR32)*

I can't wait til I get ahold of a totaled passat.....3.2 will be coming out, 3.6 will be going in http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 03slvrstoned (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: (04RSR32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04RSR32* »_I'd love to put a 3.6L VR6 in my R. almost 300hp to start with and possible 380-400 with intake, exhaust, cams and tune..

you think you can squeeze that much power out of it NA? I would think you might need some FI to get at least 100-150 extra HP.


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (03slvrstoned)*


_Quote, originally posted by *03slvrstoned* »_
you think you can squeeze that much power out of it NA? I would think you might need some FI to get at least 100-150 extra HP.

You start with 280hp and i'm sure you can get at least 100NA out of it. You can get 100 NA HP out of a 3.2L... 95GLX put down 251AWHP on 93oct. with what i mentioned above. He's running 12.8's in the 1/4. You could see an additional 10whp with race gas.. FI would be an ultimate goal of course. especially with 3.6l worth to force feed..


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## R32Jetta (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (03slvrstoned)*


_Quote, originally posted by *03slvrstoned* »_
you think you can squeeze that much power out of it NA? I would think you might need some FI to get at least 100-150 extra HP.

Go with ITB's and I bet you could get close to those #'s......the bmw m3's 3.2l has 333 hp before mods......a 3.6 vr would be even better


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## 03slvrstoned (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: (R32Jetta)*

that would deff be a hot idea but I wonder what the ecu would think of it.


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (03slvrstoned)*


_Quote, originally posted by *03slvrstoned* »_that would deff be a hot idea but I wonder what the ecu would think of it.

I think thats where you might run into problems. Stand alone might be an idea to look into. But that also can be very expensive.


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## Anagonda (Feb 22, 2004)

*Re: (04RSR32)*

Oh god damn you guys are clever!
You say that because M3 3.2 has 32xhp that will make more on a 3.6 vw engine? You know that bmw engine has vanos and alot of clever stuff inside? Its not a 100 year old volkswagen design with a bit longer stroke and bigger bore.
I don't say that you can't get 100hp per liter on vw engine in NA, but it will cost less to swap a M3 engine in your Golf or Jetta. So its just stupid to get a 10k engine swap and then but 10k more to get 100hp per liter. Boost your little vr's and drink the rest(15k?), more fun and not so stupid.


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## R32Jetta (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (Anagonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anagonda* »_Oh god damn you guys are clever!
You say that because M3 3.2 has 32xhp that will make more on a 3.6 vw engine? You know that bmw engine has vanos and alot of clever stuff inside? Its not a 100 year old volkswagen design with a bit longer stroke and bigger bore.
I don't say that you can't get 100hp per liter on vw engine in NA, but it will cost less to swap a M3 engine in your Golf or Jetta. So its just stupid to get a 10k engine swap and then but 10k more to get 100hp per liter. Boost your little vr's and drink the rest(15k?), more fun and not so stupid.

ooooh VANOS







"and a lot of clever stuff inside.....Because of that BMW's have more hp"









Dude your a moron and you know nothing about how an engine works.....the M3 engine has more power because it has individual throttle bodies which allows it to pull in crazy amount of air...more than any single TB no matter how big it is. 
I simply said that runnning ITB's on a 3.6 vr you would probably see close to those #'s.....which I guarantee you would....who knows, maybe Ill be one of the first to try it










_Modified by R32Jetta at 9:28 PM 5-17-2006_


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## ArcticFox (Nov 4, 2005)

*Re: (R32Jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *R32Jetta* »_I simply said that runnning ITB's on a 3.6 vr you would probably see close to those #'s.....which I guarantee you would....who knows, maybe Ill be one of the first to try it








 
50/50 chance because of the head design. The 3.6L shares one thing all VR6's have the weirdest cylinder design ever made. Depends how much HP FSI can add sine its still very new tech for gasoline powered VW's and no one has touched yet on a N/A level.


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## philiminilli (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: (R32Jetta)*

you cant compare a bmw engine to a vr6 engine, everything is different, the way the head is designed etc, just because a bmw makes 333hp out of 3.2l doesnt mean that a 3.6l vr will make 400 i would say that after cams, chip, exhaust, intake, you might be looking at 330 and thats at the flywheel


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## Anagonda (Feb 22, 2004)

*Re: (R32Jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *R32Jetta* »_ooooh VANOS







"and a lot of clever stuff inside.....Because of that BMW's have more hp"









Dude your a moron and you know nothing about how an engine works.....the M3 engine has more power because it has individual throttle bodies which allows it to pull in crazy amount of air...more than any single TB no matter how big it is. 
I simply said that runnning ITB's on a 3.6 vr you would probably see close to those #'s.....which I guarantee you would....who knows, maybe Ill be one of the first to try it









_Modified by R32Jetta at 9:28 PM 5-17-2006_

Thanks for calling me a moron. Thats nice that you know what I know(and better than myself)








So you say that the only thing that is better in M3 engine is the itb's? NIIIICE! Good luck for you and tuning the vw's vr6 engines.
EDIT: Oh, and as you can see on my profile I'm not driving a bmw. So thats not why I'm saying their engines are better. But still I'm saying that the bmw engines are so much better in design. VW engines uses the same ****ty design that was designed about 20 years ago. But I must be a moron that I still try to tune vw engines??


_Modified by Anagonda at 12:36 PM 5-18-2006_


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## R32Jetta (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (philiminilli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *philiminilli* »_you cant compare a bmw engine to a vr6 engine, everything is different, the way the head is designed etc, just because a bmw makes 333hp out of 3.2l doesnt mean that a 3.6l vr will make 400 i would say that after cams, chip, exhaust, intake, you might be looking at 330 and thats at the flywheel

isnt that exactly what I said


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## R32Jetta (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (Anagonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anagonda* »_
Thanks for calling me a moron. Thats nice that you know what I know(and better than myself)








So you say that the only thing that is better in M3 engine is the itb's? NIIIICE! Good luck for you and tuning the vw's vr6 engines.
EDIT: Oh, and as you can see on my profile I'm not driving a bmw. So thats not why I'm saying their engines are better. But still I'm saying that the bmw engines are so much better in design. VW engines uses the same ****ty design that was designed about 20 years ago. But I must be a moron that I still try to tune vw engines??

_Modified by Anagonda at 12:36 PM 5-18-2006_

All I was pointing out was how much ITB's can bring the best out of any motor including a VR!! And I used the M3's engine as an example....but if it makes you feel smarter by jumping all over somebodys a$$ on a forum over something that really doesnt even matter then I am happy for you http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (Anagonda)*

So wait ... which design is OLDER? The straight 4/6 or the VR6? Yeah the VR6 is a NEWER design. My point? Don't call VW motors a stupid ancient design when you dont know what your talking about. 
Oh and it wouldnt be cheaper to swap an M3 engine into a golf/jetta -- theres NO WAY it would fit!! The VR was made specifically to adress THAT problem.


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## Anagonda (Feb 22, 2004)

*Re: (PhReE)*

Every thing will fit... It just welding and cutting.
This is getting interesting. So you guys say that M3 engine has older design because its straight 6. You say that every straight six engine has been the same for over hundred years? This means that vw 1.3 engine and suzuki hayabusa 1.3 engine are the same, old ****?
Get your head out of ***. 
I was comparing the M3 3.2 engine and VR 3.6 engines, not comparing all straight six engines to the vr.
I meant that volkswagen still uses the design from 80's when they designed vr6. In my opinion its just going worse. Longer stroke in a engine that already had too long stroke for a nice "tune engine". And the head isn't good, heat problems...
Offtopic but did you know that vr engines where already build in 1920's? So it must be really old!


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## R32Jetta (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (Anagonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anagonda* »_Every thing will fit... It just welding and cutting.
This is getting interesting. So you guys say that M3 engine has older design because its straight 6. You say that every straight six engine has been the same for over hundred years? This means that vw 1.3 engine and suzuki hayabusa 1.3 engine are the same, old ****?
Get your head out of ***. 
I was comparing the M3 3.2 engine and VR 3.6 engines, not comparing all straight six engines to the vr.
I meant that volkswagen still uses the design from 80's when they designed vr6. In my opinion its just going worse. Longer stroke in a engine that already had too long stroke for a nice "tune engine". And the head isn't good, heat problems...
Offtopic but did you know that vr engines where already build in 1920's? So it must be really old!

You just keep making yourself look even dumber every time you post!
VW's didnt even exist in the 1920's how in the hell are comparing the first narrow angle v6 to the VW VR's that were produced 70 yrs later








Nothing you are saying makes any sense.....Its common knowledge that the M3 3.2 is a very hard engine to tune.....which is why alot of E36 guys will pick up a 95 m3 that does not have vanos.
All of the the new 24v vr's are great motors with alot of potential....I can think of several of the top of my head pushing over 700 hp....2 of which are even 12v vr's!! And you say the design of the VR is just gettin worse


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (Anagonda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anagonda* »_Every thing will fit... It just welding and cutting.
This is getting interesting. So you guys say that M3 engine has older design because its straight 6. You say that every straight six engine has been the same for over hundred years? This means that vw 1.3 engine and suzuki hayabusa 1.3 engine are the same, old ****?
Get your head out of ***. 
I was comparing the M3 3.2 engine and VR 3.6 engines, not comparing all straight six engines to the vr.
I meant that volkswagen still uses the design from 80's when they designed vr6. In my opinion its just going worse. Longer stroke in a engine that already had too long stroke for a nice "tune engine". And the head isn't good, heat problems...
Offtopic but did you know that vr engines where already build in 1920's? So it must be really old!

I was NOT saying the inline 6 is an old out dated design. I was saying that the age of the design is a moot point and doesnt matter at all.


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## Micropassatman (Feb 9, 2006)

Let me know when you guys drop your poor, delapidated 3.2's out of your cars. I'll be more than happy to take one in and nurse it back to health.


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## Weak VR (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: (Micropassatman)*

wow, sounds very expensive to get a 3.6L long block.. kick ass motor tho


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: (USDM EG)*

From what I have read, the 3.6L is an aluminium block, with the variable intake 10 degree VR head (as opposed to the earlier 15 degree), and has FSI. 
FSI is insane technology. Any motor that can run on pump gas at 12.5:1 comp ratios and higher without detonation is wicked. BMW will never be able to do that, unless they incorporate this new technology.
The only downside to this, is with such a high static compression, low compression pistons will be a required upgrade for forced induction applications on the 3.6's
All M3 blocks are cast iron, I believe, (I could be wrong regarding the new M's) and the split plenum type of technology was developed by Schrick and VW Motorsport in the intakes they made for the 12 Valve VR6 MKIII's. 
I would love to see some pictures of the 3.6L MKIV that were mentioned earlier as VW test vehicles. I was under the impression the reason these are not going to be found in the MKV and Audi A3 is they will simply not fit with all the other components. If it indeed will fit, I may need to make some calls to my German wharehouse. 
Cheers, Travis


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So how different is the cylindre head design on the new 3.6L FSI VR6 different than the previous 3.2L and 2.8L 24v VR6's? I am in a 12v Vr6 right now and have been keeping up on the Bildon motorsports research/design on the 12v forum on here and the head seems to be one of the many things holding the 12v Vr6 back. So the 3.6L Vr6 has FSI,narrower 10degree design, and from what I have read some kind of variable cam timing in it my question is how much has the head design changed from the 12v? 
If anyone really gets into the meat and bones of this engine these issues need to be discussed without harsh judgement or criticism that kind of **** talking hardly ever works. I believe it would do people who want to really takcle this engine a great service to read up on the Bildon Motorsport 12v research/builup project in order to see if VW has already improved on the walls that us 12v guys have been having trouble with since the beginning. If anything it would be a great place to start instead of all this fussing and fighting. Good luck.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

Comparing the old 2.8L 12V engine to the new 3.6L 24V is like apples and oranges.
The block is a completely different design, with a narrower angle between opposing cyclinders, which in turn makes the intake and exhaust ports shorter. Also with 4 Valves per cyclinder the flow is far better on the later engines. FSI means a completely different piston design, with far less CC volume (hence the higher static compression ratio's on the 3.6L) 
Camshafts are going to be alot closer together as well with the narrower angle. 
The aspects in the Bildon thread aren't going to really apply here, as most of the technology you would need to make the 12V hit 300hp, is already factory on the 3.6L 
Aluminium Block, bigger bore and stroke, 24 valves, shorter intake runners, shorter exhaust runners, variable timing, FSI (this is the most important aspect of this engine) which allows a 12:1 compression ratio that doesn't ping on pump gas, forged internals, and much more make this by far better than anything VW has come up with yet in regards to the VR6 design. 
Apples and Oranges, you can't compare the two. 
The engines share the same basic principle of a split pin Crankshaft, and unequal port length and size, but that's about it. 
I would be surprised if any of the bolt patterns on this block are even in the same pattern as the old 12v.


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I know they are apples and oranges I just wanted to make sure. Ok with that out of the way. What are the possible walls that owners and tuners alike might come up against on the quest for big N/A hp#'s? I guessed that VW would have improved on the VR design since the 12v however I didn't want to assume that it had happened. The new 3.6L Vr6 being the new kid on the block that it is have there been any companies to delve into the engine and see what kind of power there is to be had with mild to wild modifications? I understand that the 3.6L is relatively new(have to be careful on this board can get nasty if someone mis-understands you)and expensive so if extensive engine mods are slow forth in coming or if they come at all I will not be surprised. 
In your opinion what/how does having the engine down to 10degrees help the engine?


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: (VR6DPLMT.)*

I think the reason the went with 10 degree seperation was due to size, I am not really sure. 
I would need to find the tech article I read awhile back on the new engine.


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## xanthus (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I think the reason the went with 10 degree seperation was due to size, I am not really sure. 
I would need to find the tech article I read awhile back on the new engine. 

Seems like they went with 10 degree seperation would not be because of piston size but rather for better tuning. To try to better equalize the the intake and exhaust ports. It was probably much more difficult to fit the 3.6L pistons into the 10 degree engine versus a 15. However to maintain the VR's compact design the had to use a closer angle. A 3.6L 15 degree engine would end up being wider engine block. Since they are runing FSI the funky (diesel esque) piston design of the older VR's dosen't come into play as much since the 3.6L pistons can be more flat.
I must say, it would be alot of fun taking apart a 3.6L engine and compairing all VR6 designs.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: (xanthus)*

Size contraints for the car they plan on shoe-horning the engine into. Not piston size.


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## Marshmallow Man (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

a bump cause I'm interested in throwing this into my 20th and a link for someone selling this motor in the states, enjoy!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2722114


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (Shytown)*

Stumbled on this thread searching for some other info and some
missing and misinformation caught my eye. 
The angle of the 3.6L VR6 is 10.6 degrees, not 10. 
The reason for the change in angle was to allow VW to bore out the 
cylinders to a larger diameter while using the same size block as the 3.2L VR6. 
In the 2.8L and 3.2L VR6's the centerline of the cylinder bore points straight
at the axis of the crankshaft. This is pretty much how it's always been
done on V engines, whether they're 60, 90 or in the VR6's case 15 degrees.
Problem with the VR6 is that the tops of the pistons have to be close
enough together to allow them to all fit under one head and two cam
shafts. Means the bottom of the cylinders are very close to 
each other. As you bore the cylinders out more and more the bottom
of the cylinders get closer and closer together until they finally 
overlap (or at least become so close that you have strength and
cooling problems). So what's VW do? They left the tops of the cylinders 
pretty much where they've always been and moved the bottoms away
from each other. This decreases the angle of the V, but also now means 
that the centerline of the bore no longer points straight at the crankshaft.
You'd think this would create some odd vibrations and such, but it does not,
probably because these engines are already so close to being an inline
6 already that a slight offset has no more effect on balance than the original
15 degree V angle did. 
They didn't change the angle to improve tune or significantly change
the geometry of the head, or intake/exhaust ports/valves in any way.
The major reason that a VR6 of equivalent displacement to a BMW M motor
won't ever make the same power at equivalent level of tuning is the size and 
path of the intake and exhaust ports. Because half the intake
ports and half the exhaust ports have to squeeze between those of
the opposite cylinder bank it restricsts the maximum size of those ports. 
BMW's inline 6's have no such restriction. Can make the ports as large
a diameter as you can punch in the side of the head without overlapping.
Yes VANOS and variable cam phasing play a role but VR6 has versions of
those as well. 
The 3.2L VR6 in highest power N/A street tune is running somewhere
around 320hp. (That's cams/intake/exhaust/chip/race fuel/etc. Search for 
posts from user 95GLX)
A race spec 3.2L VR6 (Australian GP racing teams maxed em out in
2004) had the above plus short runner intake and a few other goodies 
they figured somewhere around 340-350hp. 
I'd expect the 3.6L VR6 to do better, but not shockingly so. 
ian


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## gnomecult (Mar 26, 2006)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

So i have been reading the other thread on the link above the engine will fit but there is no tranny so far anyone hear or think different?


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (gnomecult)*

weight is the issue. but honestly I think the r32 has similar capabilities.


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## hubbell (Oct 30, 2001)

*Re: (subrosasix)*

hey FYI the guy at my dealer said he could get me a 3.6 longblock from VW for 8-9K. this is with employee pricing and no core charge...im sure if you talked to the righte person you could get this deal. now the issue is this...use the 3.6 engine, the 6 spd from the R32 which should bolt up and then youll be good to go. VW doesnt want to use the 6 spd i guess but i know that would fit. the dealership near me was hinting that the 3.2 and 3.6 are very close to eachother as far as size, orientation and swap possibilites....if one wanted to swap this in they could use low comp pistons, stand alone and then go turbo later withe the 24v setup from the 3.2 probably....im sure this will happen soon enough, it is my plan but wont happen for another 1-2 years.


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## Marshmallow Man (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_Stumbled on this thread searching for some other info and some
missing and misinformation caught my eye. 
ian

Good stuff, so in essence it's the same block if I understand you correctly, other than the bottom of the block being spaced out some by decreasing the angle of the v, it should bolt up to an o2m tranny?


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## subrosasix (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

theres no mechanical new tech in the 3.6 you can run any car on 12:5 on 91 oct. by just tuning the car to run on such.(retard timing)


_Modified by subrosasix at 6:28 PM 9-21-2006_


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (subrosasix)*

Yeah there is .. FSI...


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## nudegumby (Mar 28, 2005)

*Re: (hubbell)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hubbell* »_hey FYI the guy at my dealer said he could get me a 3.6 longblock from VW for 8-9K. this is with employee pricing and no core charge...im sure if you talked to the righte person you could get this deal.

My dealer quoted me $7535 with no employee pricing, no core charge


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## VR6BUG (May 13, 2005)

Im going to stuff a 3.6 into my 1998 beetle, or a R32 motor in the next year.


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## 20GTIVR603 (Sep 3, 2006)

*Re: (R32Jetta)*

ooooo can anyone imagine like an mk2 or mk3 GTI with 3.6l engine....and TTed.....i think i just went in my pants a little....


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (subrosasix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *subrosasix* »_theres no mechanical new tech in the 3.6 you can run any car on 12:5 on 91 oct. by just tuning the car to run on such.(retard timing)

_Modified by subrosasix at 6:28 PM 9-21-2006_

Ahh ha! But w/ Direct injection (ala FSI) there is no need to loose power by retarding the timing like you would have to w/ indirect injection.


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## nudegumby (Mar 28, 2005)

I wish I had a quick 10 grand to drop on the engine and an o2m tranny because I got a mechanic who wants to do this and TT it next year but he says I buy parts and beer and lend a hand and he'll do it for me


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