# ALH or MTDI?



## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm getting ready to have an ALH put into my Rocco and was wondering if there's any perks to an MTDI set up over full ALH set up?


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

Electronic vs electrically controlled. 12v cummins vs 24v cummins. 

One you can just dump obnoxious amounts of fuel (which equals power) but you have FAR less control over tuning. The other you can tune-in and dial-in nearly anything you could ever ask for, thus making a more efficient, egt savvy vehicle thats far more streetable/comfortable.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

85_305 said:


> Electronic vs electrically controlled. 12v cummins vs 24v cummins.
> 
> One you can just dump obnoxious amounts of fuel (which equals power) but you have FAR less control over tuning. The other you can tune-in and dial-in nearly anything you could ever ask for, thus making a more efficient, egt savvy vehicle thats far more streetable/comfortable.


LAWL WUTT? :laugh:

I dunno dafuq that means, but it s wrong.

I don't think you know exactly how these fuel pumps work, but being controlled mechanically (by a throttle cable) or electronically (by a wire) changes nothing.. except how you control the pump. 

The fuel delivery, the amount of fuel delivered and the time at which it is delivered does not differ between M-TDI and E-TDI. Learn some stuff before you go spewing incorrect information. 

A Bosch VE pump is a Bosch VE pump regardless of how it is controlled.


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

8v-of-fury said:


> LAWL WUTT? :laugh:
> 
> I dunno dafuq that means, but it s wrong.
> 
> ...



:banghead: I was thinking "mechanical pump", not mechanically controlled.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

Well in the case of the 12v and 24v Cummins, Yes they are different. The 12v commonly uses a mechanical VE pump as well, whereas the 24v uses an electronic VP pump. Still the same basic principle though. 

The ALH has a mechanical pump, it is physically the same on the inside as a 1975 rabbit 1.5 pump. Except for the electro-throttle and ability to move the timing piston based on the computers reading of engine sensors.


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

8v-of-fury said:


> Well in the case of the 12v and 24v Cummins, Yes they are different. The 12v commonly uses a mechanical VE pump as well, whereas the 24v uses an electronic VP pump. Still the same basic principle though.
> 
> The ALH has a mechanical pump, it is physically the same on the inside as a 1975 rabbit 1.5 pump. Except for the electro-throttle and ability to move the timing piston based on the computers reading of engine sensors.


The vp37 used on an alh is an electronically controlled rotary pump... not quite a full mechanical pump at all. But I misunderstood the initial question.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Well I'm learning here too. I'm looking into a mechanical pump off of a Canadian model n/a 1.9l motor.


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

^ ya thats exactly what I pictured you meaning; swapping a mechanical pump in or hybriding the TDI into a mechanical pump.

electronic injection is more controlled, refined, produces better (and more controllable) power, better mpg's, lower egt's....... i only suggest mtdi for a swap into a vehicle that didn't come w/ it stock. It can be a huge pita running wiring and harnesses and a dash if the vehicle doesn't have it already.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

MKIGTITDI said:


> Well I'm learning here too. I'm looking into a mechanical pump off of a Canadian model n/a 1.9l motor.


This too is what I meant when I made my first comment.. I am not laughing at you the op trying to learn, but the other guy whos been around the block and still has it wrong.

You can physically put a 1.9 AAZ pump on to the engine and run it.. I have done it. Will it tun? Yes. Will it make any power? No.

If you are going mTdi you need to read until your brain hurts then take a rest and read some more. This is not a swap for the feint of heart. I have probably well over 70 hours total in to my mk1 tdi swap... 

The only route id recommend for the mtdi idea is a land rover pump. Found on the 300tdi Land Rover Discovery's.


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

8v-of-fury said:


> This too is what I meant when I made my first comment.. I am not laughing at you the op trying to learn, but the other guy whos been around the block and still has it wrong.


I'd love for you to show me how I'm wrong.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

85_305 said:


> Electronic injection is more controlled, refined, produces better (and more controllable) power, better mpg's, lower egt's....... .


1Z, AHU, ALH, even PD engines are not electronic injection. They are mechanically injected, look it up. Common rail? now that is different, those engines ARE electronically injected. Not an easy task to make an ALH a Common Rail.




85_305 said:


> The vp37 used on an alh is an *electronically controlled* rotary pump... not quite a full mechanical pump at all. But I misunderstood the initial question.


Exactly.. Ever had one open? Still a mechanical injection pump. Still uses rollers, a cam plate, and a high pressure head and plunger.













85_305 said:


> I'd love for you to show me how I'm wrong.


Not entirely sure why you would love me to do anything to you.....  Seriously though, come on man.. You have a TDI.. you've been a member FOREVER.. Learn some siht. What do you do with your time spent surfing? 

Prioritize your surfing time, 75% learning.. 25% picture ogling. :thumbup:


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

You just corrected me then agreed with me. They are electronically controlled rotary pumps. Its a mechanical piece that's electronically controlled in every aspect.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

85_305 said:


> You just corrected me then agreed with me. They are electronically controlled rotary pumps. Its a *mechanical* piece that's electronically controlled in every aspect.


Still stupid, guess you can't fix that.

Electronically controlled does not make it electronic injection, open up your fukkin eyes and read what I type. 

It is still a mechanical pump, every aspect of injection is mechanical. There is nothing about injection that is electronic with a mk3 or mk4 TDI.


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

8v-of-fury said:


> Still stupid, guess you can't fix that.
> 
> Electronically controlled does not make it electronic injection, open up your fukkin eyes and read what I type.
> 
> It is still a mechanical pump, every aspect of injection is mechanical. There is nothing about injection that is electronic with a mk3 or mk4 TDI.


Really? Then why does injector 3 have a sensor in it? What happens if you disconnect the ecu on a vp37 car? How about pulling the wiring harness to it?
It won't run. Its timed, fired, and controlled electronically. A full mechanical injection system denotes there is no wiring or electronics involved in the injection event, this is not true for a tdi. 

Go **** yourself.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Yeah my buddy just did a mechanical Canadian pump set up on a car for his brother and said its a grumpy sooty beast. Can't quiet get the right tune on it but is still managing 183whp at 231tq with it. I was trying to possibly avoid the splicing of the mkiv wiring into my mki but I may still go that route. I have no time at home for this last stage of the project of either the wiring or going mechanical portion of the set up. So I'm sending it to a shop. I know I'm cheating but I want the project back on the road. I'm cutting huge corners and still running an 020 trans when I know damned good and well I need to go cable but in the next year prior to doing a big turbo, injectors, ect I'm going to cable shift.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

183 whp on a 1.9 AAZ (Canadian 1.9 IDI) pump? Interesting, what all has he done to the pump? It is most certainly not stock by any means. Does it have a modified internal throttle lever? :thumbup:



Injector 3 has a sensor to monitor injection, not to be a part of it. Well disconnecting the wiring harness is kind of cheating, the fuel stop solenoids power wire is in that harness . It is not fired electronically, it is a mechanical injection pump with a physical moving plunger inside.

"A full mechanical injection system denotes there is no wiring or electronics involved in the injection event, this is not true for a tdi."

I never claimed a full mechanical, this is not a Marine engine there Hoss.. they are truly full mechanical. Not even 12v to the stop solenoid. Guess what there Jacka$$, there is no electronics involved in the injection event on a mk3 or mk4 TDI engine. Still wrong, go lick your wounds. :laugh:


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Honestly I have no idea what he's done to it. He know his diesels. He's got a 800whp cummins as his daily. I'm either going with him to set up a mechanical set up or a different shop and having them wire it as full ALH. I have everything I need for the immobilizer but seeing what's more dependable in the long run that's something I can easily fix if need be.


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

MKIGTITDI said:


> Yeah my buddy just did a mechanical Canadian pump set up on a car for his brother and said its a grumpy sooty beast. Can't quiet get the right tune on it but is still managing 183whp at 231tq with it. I was trying to possibly avoid the splicing of the mkiv wiring into my mki but I may still go that route. I have no time at home for this last stage of the project of either the wiring or going mechanical portion of the set up. So I'm sending it to a shop. I know I'm cheating but I want the project back on the road. I'm cutting huge corners and still running an 020 trans when I know damned good and well I need to go cable but in the next year prior to doing a big turbo, injectors, ect I'm going to cable shift.


Its really a matter of do you want to swap electronics? Thats the biggest determining factor. You can make a fun mechanical ride... but there's already a lot of negatives I've mentioned. The negatives to a full blown TDI swap into a non-tdi car are you need the cluster, ALL the sensors, wire up the ecu, etc. Wiring to me is a huge pita, and I hate mechanical... but mk1's are sweet so I'd be in a bind if I were you too.



8v-of-fury said:


> 183 whp on a 1.9 AAZ (Canadian 1.9 IDI) pump? Interesting, what all has he done to the pump? It is most certainly not stock by any means. Does it have a modified internal throttle lever? :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes there's a plunger and rotor inside a rotary alh... but its electronically controlled; thats why I said 'electronically controlled mechanical injection'. Why do you think tunes are so effective? Because you _can_ change nearly every aspect of the injection event with a simple addition or negation of 1's and 0's.

Look @ 12v rotary cummins from the late 80's and early 90's; THOSE are mechanical rotary injection motors. Theres NOTHING electronic about those rotary pumps, unlike our vp37's.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

85_305 said:


> Look @ 12v rotary cummins from the late 80's and early 90's; THOSE are mechanical rotary injection motors. Theres NOTHING electronic about those rotary pumps, unlike our vp37's.



I rebuild Bosch fuel pumps... you even touched a wrench?


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## 85_305 (May 31, 2008)

8v-of-fury said:


> I rebuild Bosch fuel pumps... you even touched a wrench?


My neighbor is a mechanic. He tells me my loud turbo is "a really nasty vacuum leak that you better get checked out".




learn something:
http://www.appropedia.org/Volkswagen_group_Tdi_engine_with_VP_37_injection_pump


Read about the several handfuls of sensors that control the injection event in a vp37 car. Sure sounds like an electronically controlled mechanical pump to me.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

If you have a good resource for building an m-tdi I would do it. Wiring is cool and all. Oh wait not it isn't. You can mismatch 1.9 idi and 1.9etdi pump and come up with something.. or a Land rover pump from the uk. or build one out of a cummins 4 cylinder pump which is what I have though I paid 1k for it and I can put you in touch with the man building them if you'd like. I haven't run it yet but the guy knows his stuff and has been working with these mtdi cummins pumps awhile. They are brand new 0 miles pump(aside from testing which he does do before he sends it out. he's machines and builds himself from some incarnation of a cummins pump.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

bbob203 said:


> If you have a good resource for building an m-tdi I would do it. Wiring is cool and all. Oh wait not it isn't. You can mismatch 1.9 idi and 1.9etdi pump and come up with something.. or a Land rover pump from the uk. or build one out of a cummins 4 cylinder pump which is what I have though I paid 1k for it and I can put you in touch with the man building them if you'd like. I haven't run it yet but the guy knows his stuff and has been working with these mtdi cummins pumps awhile. They are brand new 0 miles pump(aside from testing which he does do before he sends it out. he's machines and builds himself from some incarnation of a cummins pump.


Andrew is the man. That pump with some huge injectors will be worth the $1000. Way more power than you'd get from a tune and injectors for the same price on an E-TDI.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

Im gonna run the stock injectors for now then upgrade maybe summer or fall. Too much into this dang project already.  i figure a modest 20 psi of intercooled boost with a k14 will be sufficient for my needs.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

I have a friend that's helping me out with the MTDI set up. It's running an 020 trans right now I'm going to upgrade to a cable tranny as soon as I can. Then I'm going for good reliable power.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

bbob203 said:


> Im gonna run the stock injectors for now then upgrade maybe summer or fall. Too much into this dang project already.  i figure a modest 20 psi of intercooled boost with a k14 will be sufficient for my needs.


Becareful, that is a 12mm pump. It will easily push more fuel than those nozzles will handle.. This could seize the head in the pump.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

I have most of the parts for a hydro clutch cable trans swap. only missing really is a gear box wich i would suggest you get the TDI box.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

8v-of-fury said:


> Becareful, that is a 12mm pump. It will easily push more fuel than those nozzles will handle.. This could seize the head in the pump.



He said I shouldn't have any issues.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

bbob203 said:


> He said I shouldn't have any issues.


I have heard that there is issue from someone other than Andrew, I have personally never had it happen.. but I only run an 11mm and stock injectors.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

If i don't have my fuel screw cranked up I ought to be ok???


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Getting the car towed to the shop tomorrow! Getting excited to get this beast running! I'm going MTDI!


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

:thumbup:


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

What are you going to do for vane control on the alh vnt turo?


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm going off whatever my buddy recommends he's done it before. I know on his brothers set up he went with a different turbo entirely but I can't go for much more power than stock with my tranny.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

MKIGTITDI said:


> I can't go for much more power than stock with my tranny.


 
Why not? I have . I have a fully turned up 11mm Rover pump and custom ground boost pin. I can get a one tire fry-er even in third gear at a roll.. dry pavement. 

These cars are too light to hook-up. So the tires will only spin or the clutch will slip if anything is gonna happen.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

at the very least use a 210mm clutch pressure plate and flywheel. My best advice would be a ctn tranny from a 96-98 tdi with a Tdi clutch disc and a Vr6 pressure plate. The vr6 pressure plate clamps a bit more than a tdi version.:thumbup:


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Yeah right now I'm running my 020 ff code tranny. My buddy that's helping me out is giving me a month tops with my driving style with the stock tranny. He won't even test drive it in fear of blowing the Trans.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

the older style 020 is much stronger than the mk2 versions and much more so than tge mk3 version. Good luck give us some updates on your progress.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Will do ill be out of town for e next month so ill give intermittent updates as I'm home and able to go help out in the shop.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

Quick question? What year FF? pre-84 or post-84? 

The pre-84 have essentially no "LSD". They lack the conical brass washers in behind the cups. It will be a one tire fryer. 

I have mine on an mk2 ACN. Are you running 215 racing slicks?? Haha your not gonna hook-up let alone shred the trans.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm running 205s I believe. Their Dunlop direzza starspecs. The tread wears at I believe 200.


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

8v-of-fury said:


> I rebuild Bosch fuel pumps... you even touched a wrench?


 I was searching for the like button.


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

Speaking of running stock .187 or whatever they are injectors with a 12mm cummins pump...is that bad? What would happen 8v? I have a great used set of stock and a new in box set of stock nozzles that I really want to use for my MTDI jeep is why I ask.


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## gtirevo (Nov 8, 2006)

8v-of-fury said:


> LAWL WUTT?
> 
> I dunno dafuq that means, but it s wrong.
> 
> ...





:beer:


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

8v-of-fury said:


> LAWL WUTT? :laugh:
> 
> I dunno dafuq that means, but it s wrong.
> 
> ...


Yes ... BUT ...

The electronically-controlled pump is capable of regulating the injection timing and quantity (under electronic control). The mechanical cable-operated pump is only capable of manual timing control (the cold-start handle) and it only has primitive injection quantity limiting control (the boost diaphragm).

The electronically controlled pump is capable of, for example, delivering (say) 5 mg/stroke at 2 degrees SOI after TDC at idle (to make it idle smoother and quieter) and (say) 40 mg/stroke at 15 degrees SOI BTDC at 2000 rpm and (say) 40 mg/stroke at 25 degrees SOI BTDC at 3500 rpm (advancing the timing with RPM to account for ignition delay). A mechanical cable operated pump cannot do that. You are stuck with the timing that you mechanically set it up to - no automatic variation with speed and load - unless you feel like playing with the cold-start handle manually while driving ...

The electronically-controlled pump is capable of delivering a different injection quantity with RPM at the same boost pressure to account for the engine's differing breathing capability at different revs - it's all in the mapping. The mechanical cable-operated pump cannot do that. It's capable of backing off the injection quantity when the intake air temperature goes up ... the mechanical cable-operated pump cannot do that.

It's correct to say that the means by which the plunger is actuated and sends pulses of fuels out to the injectors is the same between the mechanical cable-operated pump and the electronically-controlled pump. They are internally very similar.

But it is not correct to say "The fuel delivery, the amount of fuel delivered and the time at which it is delivered does not differ between M-TDI and E-TDI. Learn some stuff before you go spewing incorrect information."

The electronic control makes a big difference ... and it's why VW went to electronic control with the TDI and completely abandoned the mechanical cable-operated pumps. The electronically controlled system was capable of meeting emission standards (at the time) and delivering acceptable noise level and performance (at the time). The mechanical pump could not do that.


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

I understand you last comment here by the tone, but don't know if I understand if you are saying what I think you are or not. The cable operated pumps advance changes with RPM. The advance mech. is what the cold start lever acts on and by 2,000 RPM or so the cold start does nothing as the internal pump pressure advances it more than the cold start can. 


The real point was to say that if the pump is spun by a timing belt so it injects fuel it is mechanical. The ALH TDI I drive has a mech. pump on it. The Mechanical pump is controlled a bit by the electric, but it is still a mech. pump.


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The centrifugal advance mechanism cannot account for fuel temperature, coolant temperature, and cannot really change the injection timing as a function of the load on the engine ...

While a TDI pump is still a VE mechanical pump at its heart, it is electronically controlled with no mechanical connection to the accelerator pedal, and there's no cold-start handle because that function is handled automatically in the electronics. The electronic versus mechanical/cable makes a HUGE difference to how the engine/pump is installed in the vehicle. The old mechanical pump requires an old fashioned accelerator pedal cable (and the cold-start handle). The electronic pump requires a drive-by-wire accelerator pedal. The mechanical-pump engine can run without any electronics (as long as you can get the glow plugs and starter motor to work, and you need a 9 volt battery for the cutoff solenoid). The electronically-controlled pump needs a wiring harness and ECU and several sensors, including that drive-by-wire accelerator pedal.

If you are building an older vehicle with a TDI engine, there's no question that you CAN make it run with a fully mechanical pump (no electronic control) and it's been done several times.

But if you go to the trouble of re-wiring the relevant portions of the vehicle, the electronic pump control will give a degree of control over the injection quantity and timing (and boost pressure) that cannot be achieved with the completely mechanical pump - if the tuning is right. This is why VW did it this way. Better driveability, lower emissions, less noise, better cold starting, better fuel consumption, etc., as long as the tuning is right - but that "right" level of tuning cannot be achieved to the same level with the fully mechanical pump.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

GoFaster said:


> Yes ... BUT ...
> 
> The electronically-controlled pump is capable of regulating the injection timing and quantity (under electronic control). The mechanical cable-operated pump is *only* capable of manual timing control (the cold-start handle).
> 
> ...


Yes the electronic control makes a big difference, yes it can change a few things with the throttle and timing on the fly based on external pump sensors. Does that make it better? No. Are emissions and noise your only argument for why they are a superior fuel pump? Yes.

Have you had either apart? Just tell me, if you have.. well you need to take a bit better look next time you are inside of one. If you haven't well then... your entire post was speculation, and stuf you have read or seen from others' experience. Sorry sir, but without actual experience your knowledge is void.



THEF-inMAN53 said:


> If the pump is spun by a timing belt so it injects fuel it is mechanical. The ALH TDI I drive has a mech. pump on it. The Mechanical pump is controlled a bit by the electric, but it is still a mech. pump.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

GoFaster said:


> The centrifugal advance mechanism cannot account for fuel temperature, coolant temperature, and cannot really change the injection timing as a function of the load on the engine ...
> 
> *Yes it can.. There is load based timing adjustments present in the mechanical pumps since 1986. Durrr read a book. Or open a pump and learn this first hand.*
> 
> Better driveability, lower emissions, less noise, better cold starting, better fuel consumption, etc., as long as the tuning is right - but that "right" level of tuning cannot be achieved to the same level with the fully mechanical pump.


Very hard to say my friend. As they never had a electronically controlled IDI engine in the VW line-up.. How can you say most of that new found awesome didn't come from the switch to DI in itself?? 

I have a 550,000km AHU M-TDI in my driveway right now. BESIDE a 400,000 AAZ. Both fully mechanical. I can start my M-TDI down to -15F with no glow plugs or frost heater. It is quieter, more efficient, starts perfect in the cold, and emits less smoke.. 

So where does your electrical banter come in to this again?? All of what they gained for the 1996 1Z being TDI was NOT from the electricals... it was from the switch from IDI to DI fuel injection.


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## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

GoFaster said:


> Yes ... BUT ...
> 
> The electronically-controlled pump is capable of regulating the injection timing and quantity (under electronic control). The mechanical cable-operated pump is only capable of manual timing control (the cold-start handle) and it only has primitive injection quantity limiting control (the boost diaphragm).
> 
> ...


Boschs' literature contradicts you. As RPM increases, more timing is added via case pressure. The VE used on Cummins does have an electrical advance primarily used for cold starts via the KSB. The HP and torque curve also suggest an increase in timing.

Also, you CAN vary the fuel injected at RPM, the throttle does that by positioning the fuel collar on the rotor in relation to the spill port in the rotor. The boost pin further regulates that by where the fulcrum on the throttle lever is placed in relation to the governor.

The VP37 controls timing advance via electric solenoid(KSB, RPMs on M-TDI), RPM and fuel quantity via a solenoid that controls the fuel collar (governor springs, flywheel, LDA/AFC), and the fuel shutdown solenoid. Beyond those 3 things, it is ALL mechanical.

VW did it for a more controlled emissions output while trying to retain or exceed previous power.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

dodger21 said:


> vw did it for a more controlled emissions output while trying to retain or exceed previous power.



yuuuuuuuuuuuuup


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

Damned haven't been on here for a bit. Thanks for the schooling on all of this.:thumbup: :beer:


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## libbybapa (Mar 12, 2004)

There are distinct advantages and distinct disadvantages to the eTDI install vs. mTDI. My understanding is that the eTDI does affect the timing on-the-fly by opening or closing the solenoid at the bottom of the pump. This limits pressure to the advance piston. There is a feedback loop to the computer regarding actual timing by comparing the #3 pintle lift sensor and the crank position sensor. The full eTDI also more closely limits boost pressure to what is optimally required for the demand for power. Those two additional electronic controls can make a _very_ slight increase in efficiency (1%?) over a well-tuned mechanical pump. With the mechanical pump and mechanically controlled turbo (e.g. wastegate) you can set the max fuel curve very accurately but there will more often be situations where either excessive boost is produced for the demand for power resulting in excessive back pressure or situations where there is excessive fuel being injected resulting in wasted fuel and increased emissions. The mechanical pumps can be tuned very accurately and erring on the side of excessive boost will come darn close to the efficiency of an eTDI. The eTDI also has neat features like data logging and the OBD system that assists you in diagnosing the problems that occur when those electronic components fail that are unnecessary to the mTDI.

The mTDI has several distinct advantages over the eTDI. There are lots of hack jobs out there that give the breed a bad name. I have heard of so-called mTDI conversions where the installer just stuck a 1.6 non-turbo pump on. Prothe even sells so-called mTDI pumps. Ha ha. 

From this point on in this post, I'm only going to discuss the advantages of a properly set up mTDI. The most notable advantage to an mTDI is that it is more reliable. All the mechanical components that can fail on an mTDI engine are present on the eTDIs and just as likely to fail on either engine. However, the eTDI has a whole slew of additional components not present on the mTDI that can and do fail. This adds another layer of complexity and a whole slew of added failure modes that are not present on the mTDI. 

The mTDI is more easily tunable for performance increases. For the eTDI to take advantage of upgraded injectors, increased boost pressure, turbo swap, etc, you will be relegated to paying for tunes. The most that is required on a properly setup mTDI pump is an adjustment of the max-fuel screw and the idle screw.

The mTDI does not need electricity to operate. A dead battery or alternator will not leave you walking. Remove the stop solenoid plunger and give it a push start and you're off to the races.

The time required for an mTDI conversion is a small fraction of the time required for an eTDI conversion. I literally pulled the 1.6TD engine out an installed an mTDI in a weekend while taking my time and goofing off. The only significant work was remaking the exhaust system.

I own both eTDI and mTDI and both are fun vehicles. I would pay more for a properly built mTDI than an eTDI.


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## vdubin92GTI (Aug 19, 2004)

*i have a rocco diesel*

hey there! I have an 84 rocco with an 83 rabbit 1.6 na motor. I'll sell it to you and then if you want to swap an engine it's pretty much plug and play


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

I have an ALH already that I'm putting in.


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## libbybapa (Mar 12, 2004)

Right on. Are you going to do the electronic engine management on your ALH or run it mTDI?


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

you guys are ****ed, 



8v of furry, you know better than this.


theman53, wanna race mtdi vs etdi alh?
250ft lbs tq. instant throttle response/power. 800+miles/14gal tank. low smoke.


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

fastinradford said:


> you guys are ****ed,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no clue what you are talking about. My e TDI is garbage even with .216 noz and the malone stage 2. My 1.6 would eat that thing up. So no. No racing with the daily that can't get out of its own way.

I thought I only posted on this to further 8v and those saying that the pump on an ALH is mechanical. I would have to reread, but I never meant to imply the E TDI was a fast runner.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

fastinradford said:


> you guys are ****ed,
> 
> 
> 8v of furry, you know better than this..


8v-of-*FURY* not furry, I'm not a friggan labra-doodle for christs sake. I AM EIGHT POUNDING VALVES OF HELLFIRE. :laugh::laugh: :thumbup: 



Seriously though, dafuq you on about? You are pro E and anti M?


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

My bad FURY

and anyone whose e-tdi is "garbage" is DOING IT WRONG.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

fastinradford said:


> My bad FURY
> 
> and anyone whose e-tdi is "garbage" is DOING IT WRONG.


Either way.. same pump, same engine.. same power levels.

If you and your E-TDI do all the same mods as me and my M-TDI, we will make the same power and torque. I will be cheaper for lack of a tune needed, and return shipping for each subsequent "tuning".


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

8v-of-fury said:


> Either way.. same pump, same engine.. same power levels.
> 
> If you and your E-TDI do all the same mods as me and my M-TDI, we will make the same power and torque. I will be cheaper for lack of a tune needed, and return shipping for each subsequent "tuning".


But I get better 55mpg while making 140hp.
And cruise control,
and smooth a/c operation
better coldarting.
load based timing.
fuel temp based timing
ability to control vnt
ability for electronic fuel economy readouts
trouble shooting.
cuts fuel off while cruising down hill.
because above, engine lasts longer. (potentially)
....

mtdi is good,
etdi is better


..


but its like saying do you want a 4-motion golf, or an r32.

Who really cares. Its ****ing awesome.
(But r32 is better hands down)


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't see how one will lose cruise control with mtdi?


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

bbob203 said:


> I don't see how one will lose cruise control with mtdi?


Cruise control is electronic.

no electronics in mtdi pump.

I dont see how you dont see.

you can use some aftermarket bs cruise, but it does not compare and is mildly unsafe without ecu monitoring vss/pedal positions ect.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

Oem vacuum operated cruise...


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

bbob203 said:


> Oem vacuum operated cruise...


 ... cant hold a candle to electronic cruise.


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## bbob203 (Feb 23, 2011)

I've never had any issues :wave:


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

fastinradford said:


> My bad FURY
> 
> and anyone whose e-tdi is "garbage" is DOING IT WRONG.


 That is the thing with the E tdi, no talent or hands on tuning is needed. How can you "do it wrong" with a store bought tune? I have the flashzilla and the malone stage 2 with .216 nozzles, it is just slow. I think it is the nature of the tiny VNT 15 more than anything, as it has almost instant full boost but doesn't really pull well above 3,000rpm in 3-5 gears. I didn't say my 01 jetta was like a bicycle, I said in comparison to my 1.6 it was slow...it is slow. I guess that is why in my opinion it is garbage. If redline is 4,500 I would like the car to pull to 4,500 in all gears. The other thing is the 01 jetta only goes well with the right foot heavily applied to the go pedal. The 1.6 seemed to go better at partial pedal inputs, it was just not as quick from a dead stop. 

BTW, the way the fly weights in the gov. works in the Mech. pump IDI you have fuel cut off going down hill too. If you put a tiny tach that measures the pulse in the injection lines on your 1.6, go down a hill and let off the signal will get weird and not show accurately. If you are anywhere near or above 3,000 RPM when you let off the RPM will go to zero as there is pretty much no fuel injected.


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

Does this sound better.... 
01 TDI is quick 

86 IDI is fast


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

theman53 said:


> Does this sound better....
> 01 TDI is quick
> 
> 86 IDI is fast


 Does this sound better... 


My IDI caddy = much faster than your IDI. 

My TDI can crush my IDI without even going full throttle. And it weighs 1,000lbs more. 

Yeah, IDI is much better:screwy:


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

fastinradford said:


> My TDI can crush my IDI without even going full throttle. And it weighs 1,000lbs more.


 My TDI can crush your TDI, with less power :laugh:. I guesstimate about 125hp and 2100lbs. 

Me thinks power-to-weight is in me favor bub. 

(but dafuq does this tiny dcik battle have to do with E vs. M?)


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## theman53 (Nov 20, 2007)

Well sir you have it figured out. 

I would wager the real reason most cars out there are faster than mine is I am well endowed enough that my car is built intentionally slower. So that way the little guys have room to build faster cars as I really don't need to feel really big as they do...All this has nothing to do with M TDI vs E TDI.


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## 8v-of-fury (Jul 15, 2008)

fastinradford said:


> cruise control,
> and smooth a/c operation
> better coldarting.
> load based timing. *(Mechanical pumps have this Jack)*
> ...


 If I wanted any of those I would drive an 97+ Jetta... :laugh: Do you think I drive an '84 because of its creature comforts??


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