# 8v digi 1 or 2 help



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

I just got a 91 golf, it's digifant 1 or 2, not sure which, how can I tell? Also it has no spark and no fuel. Fuel pump relay is good, I checked the coil and it doesn't seem to be getting spark. I don't know anything about digi, someone please help! I need to get this car running soon!


----------



## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

In your neck of the woods it is very, very likely Digifant II. Perhaps the easiest way to tell quickly is the absence of the idle and full throttle microswitches at the top and bottom of the Digifant II throttle body and the presence of a throttle position sensor at the bottom of the throttle body. The tps is a larger semicircular sensor while the microswitches are smaller, usually black, rectangular boxes with a trip arm and a small protrusion under the trup arm on the box. You could also check the electrical connection at the ECU -- Digifant I has 38 pins and Digifant II has 25 pins. And, of course you could pull the ECU and look at the designation on it. I'd bet on it being Digifant II you should be able to find used parts locally if that is the case sonce the majority of Didifant I cars were sold in California. 

Basically Digifant is no different from any other car with electronic fuel injection. You say that the fuel pump relay works -- do you have fuel at the fuel rail? You can check the fuel pressure there by jumpering the two large slots under the fuel pump relay and connecting a fuel pressure guage to the barb at the end of the fuel rail. Look for 40 PSI or so. If you have fuel pressure at the fuel rail check for ECU pulses at the fuel injector fuel rail electrical connection. Use an LED test light incandescent test lights won't work. Check a plug for spark. 

Inspect the ground connections at the cylinder head for corrosion and to see if they are still connected. The connections are located at the coolant flange bolt or stud at the transmission end of the cylinder head -- there should be several brown or black wires that connect there. When they become disconnected the ECU usually shorts out -- it is a common Digifant issue. FR


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

Fat Rabbit said:


> In your neck of the woods it is very, very likely Digifant II. Perhaps the easiest way to tell quickly is the absence of the idle and full throttle microswitches at the top and bottom of the Digifant II throttle body and the presence of a throttle position sensor at the bottom of the throttle body. The tps is a larger semicircular sensor while the microswitches are smaller, usually black, rectangular boxes with a trip arm and a small protrusion under the trup arm on the box. You could also check the electrical connection at the ECU -- Digifant I has 38 pins and Digifant II has 25 pins. And, of course you could pull the ECU and look at the designation on it. I'd bet on it being Digifant II you should be able to find used parts locally if that is the case sonce the majority of Didifant I cars were sold in California.
> 
> Basically Digifant is no different from any other car with electronic fuel injection. You say that the fuel pump relay works -- do you have fuel at the fuel rail? You can check the fuel pressure there by jumpering the two large slots under the fuel pump relay and connecting a fuel pressure guage to the barb at the end of the fuel rail. Look for 40 PSI or so. If you have fuel pressure at the fuel rail check for ECU pulses at the fuel injector fuel rail electrical connection. Use an LED test light incandescent test lights won't work. Check a plug for spark.
> 
> Inspect the ground connections at the cylinder head for corrosion and to see if they are still connected. The connections are located at the coolant flange bolt or stud at the transmission end of the cylinder head -- there should be several brown or black wires that connect there. When they become disconnected the ECU usually shorts out -- it is a common Digifant issue. FR


Misinformation ^^

It is more than likely Digi II. It is possible it is a Cali Digi I car though. Digi II will have throttle switches. A Cali Digi I car will have a TPS though.

There is a huge difference between Cali Digi I and a real Digi I setup. That being Digi I is used with the G60 engine. The Cali Digi I is closer to Digi II since it uses a MAF sensor, whereas Digi I uses a MAP sensor and a CO Potentiometer.

Both Digi I and Digi II have the same number of pins. You can actually convert a Digi II harness to work with a Digi I ECU by swapping a couple of the wires.



OP since you don't have spark or fuel I would be willing to bet there is an issue with your Hall sender on the distributor. Follow the trouble shooting procedures in the bentley manual and you can find out if it is the Hall sender or if the issue lies elsewhere like the ECM relay or the ECU itself.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Would this coil work as a cheaper replacement?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8203/

Also, I'm going to replace the ICM, and probably both fuel pumps. I tested the in-tank one with a 12v car battery after pulling it out and it wouldn't do sh!t. I tested them both still on the car too by taking the hoses off and nothing was coming out. Their was pressure when I pulled the first line off, though. I pulled the plugs though and their was no fuel on the plugs or in the cylinders.

The car is Digi2, I pulled the ECU real quick to check. A bad ICM would not let the coil fire, correct? I tried hooking the coil directly up to a battery and get it to spark but nothing happened. Is their a way to test the ICM?


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

bretthbmx said:


> Would this coil work as a cheaper replacement?
> 
> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8203/
> 
> ...


You sound like you are just replacing things at random instead of looking for root cause of the issue.

Do you have power to the fuel pumps? do you have power at the ECU?

Did you check the hall sender?

I highly doubt the coil is bad. Bosch coils seem to last forever. Doubt it is the ICM since you aren't getting fuel either.


----------



## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Since the in-tank pump supplies the main pump if that pump doesn't work the main pump might not get much fuel. I say that because the main pump can potentially pull fuel from the tank if there is enough fuel in the tank. I've seen a few cases where that has happened until the tank gets low. So it is possible that the main pump had some gas to pump initially.

A new in-tank pump runs around $50. The main pump runs $25-$100 used. Rebuilt pumps $100-200 and new pumps over $200. A used main pump will work fine but I'd always use a new in-tank pump because they fail frequently. If you replace the main pump install a new "O" ring gasket and I always use new screws on the flange that holds the pump in. I also replace the bonded rubber studs that hold the black box in the frame under the car as I usually find one or more of those have come unbonded. 

The ECU powers the Hall sender in the Digifant System. You can use a 12V DC LED test light to check for voltage to the Hall sender. With the key off, disconnect the hall sender connector from the distributor and connect the LED test light across the outer two terminals of the Hall sender connector (wire end of the connector). Switch the key on and the light should light.

You can check the ICU connector for 12V DC across terminals 2 & 4 with the ignition on. 
Terminal 2 goes to ground and terminal 4 goes to Terminal 15 of the coil. Check those wires for continuity.

There are additional test you can do -- do the tests before simply replacing stuff. You will save a lot of money if you can isolate your problem and only fix what needs fixing. If you don't have a manual for your car you should buy one. Bentley is the best. You can also borrow a manual at your local library or at least make copies of the important pages involving test procedures and wiring diagrams. FR


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Okay guys, I'll check stuff out tonight after taking my girlfriend and daughter out to dinner.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Hall sender has no power, ignition control module across 2 and 4 reads nothing.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

I have power at the plug for the in tank fuel pump.


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

ECM relay for 100 trebek, better yet... have you checked the fuse?


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

TheBurninator said:


> ECM relay for 100 trebek, better yet... have you checked the fuse?


Not exactly sure how to test this relay. Its got me confused.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

All fuses are good.


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

bretthbmx said:


> Not exactly sure how to test this relay. Its got me confused.


pull the relay out and jumper the pins on the fuse block. 12 gauge wire would be good.

Basically you are doing what the relay does by manually. Then turn the car on and see if you have power at the ICM, Hall, and coil.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

TheBurninator said:


> pull the relay out and jumper the pins on the fuse block. 12 gauge wire would be good.
> 
> Basically you are doing what the relay does by manually. Then turn the car on and see if you have power at the ICM, Hall, and coil.


Oh I figured I was gonna test the relay with a multimeter, a 12v power supply and two small jumpers.

What prongs do you jump though, on the fuse block?


----------



## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Good job! 

The Digifant Relay is PN 357-906 381. (Less than $10 on line. $20 or so at the dealer.) It should be the third relay from left in the second relay row above the fuses on your fuse and relay panel. Jumper terminals 30 and 87 and then check for power as you did before. Alternatively you can check for power at pin 14 of the ECU connector with the relay jumpered.

You can also check Terminal 86 for 12V DC power at the relay with the key on. Circuit 15 is the "run" power circuit and that is where Terminal 86 gets its power to close the relay. It is powered through the ignition switch no power there may be indicative of a ignition bad switch. (Also a less than $10 part on line. $35 or so at the dealer.) No power at Circuit 15 and the car won't run. 

Hope this isn't too confusing. FR

I see I was repeating myself somewhat and was calling Terminal 86 Terminal 15 -- FR


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Fat Rabbit said:


> Good job!
> 
> The Digifant Relay is PN 357-906 381. (Less than $10 on line. $20 or so at the dealer.) It should be the third relay from left in the second relay row above the fuses on your fuse and relay panel. Jumper terminals 30 and 87 and then check for power as you did before. Alternatively you can check for power at pin 14 of the ECU connector with the relay jumpered.
> 
> ...


You made it really long but not it's not confusing lol. I will check shortly.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

The relay 72 for ECM has 15, 31, 53, and L. No 30 and 87.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

I jumped what I thought would be 30 and 87 by looking at another relay, still no power at hall sender. Also I stuck the relay in, checked terminal 86(what I thought it to be) and had no power at it with key over. Would a bad iginition switch let the car still crank but not run?


----------



## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

If you fighting spark but have fuel?

Check and see if everything is working correctly, turn key to on position then pull the coil wire set up to check for spark, then unplug the distributor hall sensor wiring and probe the middle wire with - from the battery (I use my test light attached to the - battery post) this will cycle the fuel pump and make spark from the coil wire.

Report back...:beer:


Info
http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/CE2.html

The ecu relay is the #3 relay on the fuse panel if you remove the relay the panel is numbered 1-12, when jumping relays look at the fuse panel where the relay goes and the l - need to be jumper-ed.

You could also check for fault codes
http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/codes/digifant2.html

Good luk :beer:


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Svedka said:


> If you fighting spark but have fuel?
> 
> Check and see if everything is working correctly, turn key to on position then pull the coil wire set up to check for spark, then unplug the distributor hall sensor wiring and probe the middle wire with - from the battery (I use my test light attached to the - battery post) this will cycle the fuel pump and make spark from the coil wire.
> 
> ...


I have no spark n no fuel. In tank pump is bad but the main pump doesn't kick on either.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

I also have no power at Pin 14 from the ecu with the relay in, or jumped.


----------



## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

The ecu relay does not control the fuel pumps they are on different relays the #12 (bottom right of fuse panal) spot is fuel pump you can also jumper that the same way. Check the fuel pump fuse also.

Make sure its not something silly like seat-belt attached to door or bad grounds it is not very often that both fuel and spark go out at the same time.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

I already tested the fuel pump relay like stated earlier in the thread. I have power at the plug for the in tank one but haven't checked the main pump.


----------



## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

Did you replace or test the #3 relay in the fuse panel it should be a #32 relay if it is factory. Do you have access to another ICM & distributor?

Did the car run at all what made the problem start?


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Svedka said:


> Did you replace or test the #3 relay in the fuse panel it should be a #32 relay if it is factory. Do you have access to another ICM & distributor?
> 
> Did the car run at all what made the problem start?


Yes I replaced and tested the #3 relay. No I don't have access to another icm & distributor. I'm not getting any power to hall plug so another distributor isn't going to do a thing. 

I got the car off some guy two days ago, he said it just needed a fuel pump relay and new injectors. He told me the car would run, get up to temp, bog down like it was getting too much fuel, then shut off. Obviously that dudes a liar.


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

bretthbmx said:


> Yes I replaced and tested the #3 relay. No I don't have access to another icm & distributor. I'm not getting any power to hall plug so another distributor isn't going to do a thing.
> 
> I got the car off some guy two days ago, he said it just needed a fuel pump relay and new injectors. He told me the car would run, get up to temp, bog down like it was getting too much fuel, then shut off. Obviously that dudes a liar.


After you do get it running if it indeed does have the issue with bogging down like that then it is not the injectors. It is either the blue coolant temp sensor or the FPR. More than likel the blue coolant temp though.


With that said you may want to try pulling the connector off of the back of the ignition switch and jumping it to make the car start that way. That will tell you if it is the ignition switch without having to replace it.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

TheBurninator said:


> After you do get it running if it indeed does have the issue with bogging down like that then it is not the injectors. It is either the blue coolant temp sensor or the FPR. More than likel the blue coolant temp though. But it might be the CTS because with the key over, it reads the coolant is up to temp.
> 
> 
> With that said you may want to try pulling the connector off of the back of the ignition switch and jumping it to make the car start that way. That will tell you if it is the ignition switch without having to replace it.


Pretty sure the FPR & CTS are brand new. What pins on the back of the ignition switch should I jump?


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

A buddy of mine came over and after about 4 hours with multimeters, we figured out the ignition switch wasn't giving the relay power to give the ecu power. Hot wired it, started right up.!!


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

bretthbmx said:


> A buddy of mine came over and after about 4 hours with multimeters, we figured out the ignition switch wasn't giving the relay power to give the ecu power. Hot wired it, started right up.!!


Aren't you glad you narrowed it down instead of replacing random parts and costing yourself more money? :thumbup:

Invest in a mk2 bentley. I don't even own a mk2 and I have one sitting here. Along with a few other ones. :thumbup:

Best resource for these cars. Very well written and worth every penny.


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

TheBurninator said:


> Aren't you glad you narrowed it down instead of replacing random parts and costing yourself more money? :thumbup:
> 
> Invest in a mk2 bentley. I don't even own a mk2 and I have one sitting here. Along with a few other ones. :thumbup:
> 
> Best resource for these cars. Very well written and worth every penny.


Yes I'm very happy cause I would of wasted a lot of money. I'll have to get another bentley. I had one a few years ago and sold it cause I got a mk3, then a mk3 bentley. Shoulda kept it! 

Now time to figure out why this damn oil light is on!


----------



## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

bretthbmx said:


> Yes I'm very happy cause I would of wasted a lot of money. I'll have to get another bentley. I had one a few years ago and sold it cause I got a mk3, then a mk3 bentley. Shoulda kept it!
> 
> Now time to figure out why this damn oil light is on!


Oil light could be on due to a bad sensor. If you ground out the wire on the low pressure sensor does it go away? If so then the sensor is more than likely bad. BTW low pressure is on the side of the head


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

New ignition and it still doesn't start. Now I can't even hot wire it cause it straight melts the wires.. :/


----------



## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Time to start tracing the wiring to find out where it is shorted. Easy enough to do -- it just takes time. Either that or find another wiring harness and install it. That might be the best thing to do if you've melted the wiring. FR


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

The wiring is fine, took apart the fuse block and looked also. I seem to be getting 12v now though at terminal 86 unlike before. I have 12v at 86 and 30 on the relay, 85 is good for ground, I don't get why 87 will not get power. I tested my new relay with a power supply and it seems to be bad also.. I have relay party number 357-906-381. I ordered it from gap, it's a 4 prong relay. Can someone verify the proper relay for me?


----------



## bretthbmx (Jun 20, 2007)

Turns out the old relay and new relay were both grounding theirselves out on the inside. It's sad how cheaply relays are made. I stuck a piece of foam in-between the pin and ground on the inside and both are good to go.


----------

