# 6 piece #3 main bearing for 1.6



## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

I am looking for bearings for a 1.6 but all I can find is the single piece #3 main bearing. Techtonics and GAP both show only the more undesirable integrated thrust bearing for #3. Is the 6 piece bearing available?


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

i know you can get it from Myke W on VWdiesel.net.. or someone over there on that board. everyone runs the 6 piece thrust over there.. i know you want one for a gasser, but it shouldnt be hard to find.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

antichristonwheels said:


> I am looking for bearings for a 1.6 but all I can find is the single piece #3 main bearing. Techtonics and GAP both show only the more undesirable integrated thrust bearing for #3. Is the 6 piece bearing available?


It's only undesirable because most people on the Vortex don't understand how to align the integral
bearing when assembling an engine, and no, it's not covered in the Bentley.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

WTF are you talking about?


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## ffgb (Oct 24, 2005)

When I rebuilt my 1.6N/A diesel motor last year, I went to Eurosport in Anaheim, CA to pick up the 6 piece thrust bearings. They ran me around $70, they are not cheap and I forget if they were Kolbenschmidt's or Glyco's. They only had them in standard size, so if you need them oversized, I don't know if they have them? You can order them from eurosportacc.com.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

I did some more looking and it appears the normal 6 piece for a 1.8 or whatever can be used I am gonna dig some out for a test fit.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

Wooderson said:


> It's only undesirable because most people on the Vortex don't understand how to align the integral
> bearing when assembling an engine, and no, it's not covered in the Bentley.


are you high?

how do you adjust a bearing with absolutely zero adjustment?

please let us in on this black magic secret that NOBODY has ever heard of before..

or just let us continue to use our 6 piece Glycoc..


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Glegor said:


> are you high?
> 
> how do you adjust a bearing with absolutely zero adjustment?
> 
> ...


You're another Vortex moron who's only automotive knowledge is from this website.

The "integral" bearing as you call it has been used for over 50 years in millions of engines by numerous
manufacturers, with ZERO problems, and yes you CAN AND MUST adjust the thrust bearing. 

I covered how to adjust it before, so if you want to know how, DO A SEARCH.

I got the same response from the Vortex know-it-alls the last time some ignorant fool said that the integral bearings are junk.

Go into any machine shop and tell them "they're high" after they tell you the same thing I did.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

The word you used was "align."

You seem to be the "know it all."

I can think of other words....


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

antichristonwheels said:


> The word you used was "align."
> 
> You seem to be the "know it all."
> 
> I can think of other words....


I sure know more than you do. 

I love putting guys like you in your place.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> You're another Vortex moron who's only automotive knowledge is from this website.
> 
> The "integral" bearing as you call it has been used for over 50 years in millions of engines by numerous
> manufacturers, with ZERO problems, and yes you CAN AND MUST adjust the thrust bearing.
> ...


I've been trawling through vortex today & came across your post & got a bit of a laugh out of it, I must say.

Please do tell how you "align" a thrust bearing?

I did a search & I can't find anything from you of a how to "align" bearings.

I won't argue with other manufacturers using with great success "one-piece" thrust bearings, but if "you" do a search, you'll find alot of dubbers have had drama's using replacement "one-piece" in their VW engines.

I myself have been in the trade for over 15 years & the last 3 with VW, along with building many high performance V8 & 4 cyl. engines for mates etc. & I've never seen anything about having to adjust a crankshaft thrust bearing. Only to check its clearance.

The only thing I can think of when you say "align", is when the machinist does a crank tunnel line hone with a machine like a sunnen line honer.

If this is what your talking about, just spit it out.

Its not exactly something a amateur can do in his shed either.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

Dude, I just asked about the availability of the bearings. You aren't telling me anything except that you are not nearly as smart as you think you are and that you have some personal issues, feelings of inadequacy and narcissictic personality. I have a 1.6 just torn down that was factory rebuilt. It has the tag still glued over the engine number. The crank holes have been chamfered, the galley plugs have been drilled and plugged, it has Audi rods, for sure it has been rebuilt. The only questionable main journal is #3. I'm sure you will say the builder was not smart like you. I have a long time friend in the PNW who has been racing and building Rabbits for 20+years. He has made 1.6s push 190hp. His words to me concerning the integral thrust bearing were that "it is problematic." His name is well known but, I'll keep it to myself. Of course, your vast spectrum of knowledge must be way beyond.

If you search for "thrust bearing failure" you find it occurs in many engines, not just VWs. This alone shows your claim of "zero failures" is BS.

Perhaps you should let VW know how much time and $ they have wasted by changing to the multi-piece design. If only they had spoken you you first.

In the meantime, I'll continue to use the multi-piece design and you can keep on telling everyone how smart you are.

Welcome to my "ignore list."


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

antichristonwheels said:


> Dude, I just asked about the availability of the bearings. You aren't telling me anything except that you are not nearly as smart as you think you are and that you have some personal issues, feelings of inadequacy and narcissictic personality. I have a 1.6 just torn down that was factory rebuilt. It has the tag still glued over the engine number. The crank holes have been chamfered, the galley plugs have been drilled and plugged, it has Audi rods, for sure it has been rebuilt. The only questionable main journal is #3. I'm sure you will say the builder was not smart like you. I have a long time friend in the PNW who has been racing and building Rabbits for 20+years. He has made 1.6s push 190hp. His words to me concerning the integral thrust bearing were that "it is problematic." His name is well known but, I'll keep it to myself. Of course, your vast spectrum of knowledge must be way beyond.
> 
> If you search for "thrust bearing failure" you find it occurs in many engines, not just VWs. This alone shows your claim of "zero failures" is BS.
> 
> ...


someone call Colin @ TT and get the facts.. 
he used to have n/a CIS rabbits with UNGODLY POWER
but im sticking by my guns. 2 piece bearings are inferior to the 6 piece unit..

there is a way to fit the integrated bearing, but i believe it involves hand lapping the bearing for the right oil clearance at the bearing journal..

and im not down with that. but then again, im one of those people who wont even replace there bottom end bearings unless it absolutely needs it.. and i havent seen many cared for VWs with bad bottom end bearings.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

Wooderson said:


> You're another Vortex moron who's only automotive knowledge is from this website.
> 
> The "integral" bearing as you call it has been used for over 50 years in millions of engines by numerous
> manufacturers, with ZERO problems, and yes you CAN AND MUST adjust the thrust bearing.
> ...


and @sshole, just so you know, only a tiny part of my mechanical knowledge comes from this site. most of my knowledge is factual..

and you just come up, and tell me im a moron, and then dont give any reasons as to why?

tell me how you adjust a bearing that is tightly bolted int a block around a crank? adjust the cap and bearing surfaces?

oh, vortex-god Wooderson, please let us in on the black magic that is called thrust bearing alignment!!


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Once again, for the uninformed Vortexers:

Install all of the main bearings in the block, then the crank. Install only the thrust cap with bearing,
and tighten to about 10 foot pounds. Strike the front of the crank with a soft faced mallet, then the rear
of the crank. Install all of the other main caps and tighten to spec. The rear of the crank is struck last
so that its surface is perfectly aligned for when the crank moves forward when the clutch is pushed in.

If you haven't figured it out by now, the main caps can be installed off center when setting them in place. The bolts
will not center them. Then you run into the dummies who claim the bearings are junk, and "nobody" has 
heard of the procedure I just listed.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

antichristonwheels said:


> Dude, I just asked about the availability of the bearings. You aren't telling me anything except that you are not nearly as smart as you think you are and that you have some personal issues, feelings of inadequacy and narcissictic personality. I have a 1.6 just torn down that was factory rebuilt. It has the tag still glued over the engine number. The crank holes have been chamfered, the galley plugs have been drilled and plugged, it has Audi rods, for sure it has been rebuilt. The only questionable main journal is #3. I'm sure you will say the builder was not smart like you. I have a long time friend in the PNW who has been racing and building Rabbits for 20+years. He has made 1.6s push 190hp. His words to me concerning the integral thrust bearing were that "it is problematic." His name is well known but, I'll keep it to myself. Of course, your vast spectrum of knowledge must be way beyond.
> 
> If you search for "thrust bearing failure" you find it occurs in many engines, not just VWs. This alone shows your claim of "zero failures" is BS.
> 
> ...


Your buddy is an idiot whos only knowledge is VWs. Have him go into a real machine shop and tell them
the bearings they use are "problematic." Better yet, have him come onto this thread and speak for 
himself.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Glegor said:


> and @sshole, just so you know, only a tiny part of my mechanical knowledge comes from this site. most of my knowledge is factual..
> 
> and you just come up, and tell me im a moron, and then dont give any reasons as to why?
> 
> ...


You're a moron because you regurgitate internet myth based on pure ignorance. How's that for a reason?


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Also, as far as the "ZERO" problems that I mentioned earlier, that's for those who have aligned the thrust bearing properly. The problems come from people who just throw things together.


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## boost is better (May 26, 2007)

Hello i myself have had failures with the one piece bearings so every motor i build i use the 6 piece ones. here is a quote from the volkswagen performance handbook "the kolbenschmidt main thrust bearings come 0.1mm too thick,and must be dressed down to set end play.a flat piece of glass or marble with 600 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper on it works well for this.after you get the size right (0.07 to 0.17mm) make certain that you have a mirror finish on the thrust surface.no matter what bearings you use,ALWAYS set the end play on any motor you put together ". I use the glyco ones.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

so funny to see all those blocked posts from dude spinning out...:laugh::laugh::laugh:

So I was at my buddies shop, a life time mechanic, a couple decades in the dealership, and I asked what his take on this subject was. He told me he had seen countless failures over the years and in fact had a Rabbit waiting for a new engine sitting in his lot. The crank had chewed the block. One thing he pointed out was the size of the thrust surface on the integral bearing vs the 6-piece bearing. Combine that with the load on the thrust and with the smaller surface area the psi load is greatly increased on the integral bearing vs the 6-piece setup. hmmm. He mentioned it was done by many manufacturers, but simply failed to work well on these VW engines.

If everyone else added dude to their ignore list we could all finish discussing this without even seeing his BS ranting.


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## Rabbitissimo (Dec 21, 2009)

antichristonwheels said:


> "His name is well known but, I'll keep it to myself."


I have bought the two piece KS bearing, I didn't know you could still get the 6 piece set.
Is this a 1.6 issue or does this apply to my 1.8 as well?
Good to know how to install them if it matters that much.
Just had to say about the quote above; solid.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

Rabbitissimo said:


> I have bought the two piece KS bearing, I didn't know you could still get the 6 piece set.
> Is this a 1.6 issue or does this apply to my 1.8 as well?
> Good to know how to install them if it matters that much.
> Just had to say about the quote above; solid.



this problem plagues ALL VW 4 banger engines with a 2 piece bearing..


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Glegor said:


> this problem plagues ALL VW 4 banger engines with a 2 piece bearing..


Actually, it's your narrow-minded brain that is plagued.

You people have the mental capacitity of a 14 year old.

Isn't it amazing that both my diesel and my gasoline VWs have ZERO problems with the "integral"
bearings, and you guys and your "expert" buddies can't figure it out?

This is pure entertainment for me. 

Keep the ignorant remarks coming.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

thats right.. you are smarter than the engineers at VW, im sure.. because they use 6 piece bearings for a reason, im sure.. 

why dont you go tell them that the cheaper 2 piece bearings are just as good? i bet they would love to switch from expensive 6 piece, to cheap 2 piece bearings, just let them know they need to!


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Glegor said:


> thats right.. you are smarter than the engineers at VW, im sure.. because they use 6 piece bearings for a reason, im sure..
> 
> why dont you go tell them that the cheaper 2 piece bearings are just as good? i bet they would love to switch from expensive 6 piece, to cheap 2 piece bearings, just let them know they need to!


Don't forget who lost the last world war due to their engineers constantly trying to improve things.

Why don't you explain to everyone here why I have ZERO problems with the two-piece design, and you
poor guys can only go by what someone working at a dealership told you??

Pure ignorance on your part, and a complete unwillingness to admit when you are wrong.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> Don't forget who lost the last world war due to their engineers constantly trying to improve things.
> 
> Why don't you explain to everyone here why I have ZERO problems with the two-piece design, and you
> poor guys can only go by what someone working at a dealership told you??
> ...


I think you'll find they lost the war due to incompetence from management. 

Nothing to do with the products they developed at all!!!! 

So you must be one of very few people who have been able to make a 2-piece bearing work & everyone else must be hacks incl. alot of well known VW engine builders by the looks of it.


All hail Wooderson!!!!!


Why didn't VW use a 2 piece design in the first place then. Surely it must be cheaper to manufacture in the long run. Maybe their engineers knew something you don't, as to why they used the 3 piece design???? 

Maybe you could enlighten the highly paid VW engineer's as to where they all went wrong!



I did find something interesting though, as upon my search for your elusive "how to align a thrust bearing". I did find you posted a question about "what you set your ignition timing at?"

Now surely someone with your "know it all expertise" in everything VW, why would you need to ask such a simple question about setting ignition timing????




Oh, I myself must align my thrust bearings by accident, as I fit my thrust bearing main cap only & check end float, but instead of banging it with a hammer (which can cause damage to a dry bearing shell!!!! You should already know this, as your the know it all in all things technical & mechanical in VW), I use a screwdriver to pry the crank on a counterweight back & forth to measure end float, which I have recently read in an old school engine building book by some worldwide renowned engine builders.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

i didnt like the idea of hitting the crank in loose, dry bearings either..

but whatever..

ALL HAIL WOODERSON!


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Glegor said:


> i didnt like the idea of hitting the crank in loose, dry bearings either..
> 
> but whatever..
> 
> ALL HAIL WOODERSON!


More nonsense from your flawed brain. You would be dumb enough not to put oil on the bearings first. 

Do I have to hold your hand every step of the way?


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> I think you'll find they lost the war due to incompetence from management.
> 
> Nothing to do with the products they developed at all!!!!


If you look at German tank production, they had a good all around tank, the Mark IV, in 1937 two years before the war started. It was an even match for the American Sherman and the Soviet T-34, but the Germans just
had to try to improve things by making the Panther, Tiger I, King Tiger, and Elephant which were hugely
complex vehicles to maintain. Do some research if you don't believe me. Had the Germans 
concentrated on mass producing the Mark IV, it would have had a noticeable effect on the war.

The Germans haven't changed, and it is in their culture to overthink things.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Oh, I myself must align my thrust bearings by accident, as I fit my thrust bearing main cap only & check end float, but instead of banging it with a hammer (which can cause damage to a dry bearing shell!!!! You should already know this, as your the know it all in all things technical & mechanical in VW), I use a screwdriver to pry the crank on a counterweight back & forth to measure end float, which I have recently read in an old school engine building book by some worldwide renowned engine builders.


Do you know the difference between a soft faced hammer and a steel one, or are you a complete fool?

Are you so stupid that I have to hold your hand and explain that oil is put on bearings befor a crank is
installed. Do you need that extra step in my explanations?


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> So you must be one of very few people who have been able to make a 2-piece bearing work & everyone else must be hacks incl. alot of well known VW engine builders by the looks of it.


No, I'm not one of a few people. It's the other way around. Most of you DIYers on the Vortex have no automotive knowledge beyond VWs, and have an ignorant, narrow-minded attitude that just because some hack had
a problem with a bearing, it must be junk. Pure internet myth based on heresay and speculation.

I'll say it again: Go into any real machine shop and tell them the two-piece bearings are junk, and 
report back what they say.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

I forgot to add: 

Keep the ignorant remarks coming. It's a laugh every day to read the nonsense you guys post!!


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> Do you know the difference between a soft faced hammer and a steel one, or are you a complete fool?
> 
> Are you so stupid that I have to hold your hand and explain that oil is put on bearings befor a crank is
> installed. Do you need that extra step in my explanations?


So how do you check the clearances with oil on the bearings? Must be a wooderson trade secret.



So I'm a DIY'er whos been a qualified mechanic for over 15 years working for the likes of BMW moving onto working on M cars, VW along with building plenty of high performance engines which aren't VW.
Also a qualified trade school teacher along with plenty of other things I an add to my resume.

What do I have to do to rid myself of a DIY'er whos a fool & become a mechanic/technician?

Wow!!! Whats your trade? Motivational Speaker, village idiot, Know all things VW & life in general?

So you picked out one little thing from the entire World War. Tanks!!!! Thats it! Thats the only thing that happened during WWII? Tank battles.

Must be watching the wrong doco's & reading the wrong history books.

You just amaze me wooderson.

How do you check ignition timing again?

ALL HAIL WOODERSON!

(jack of all trades, master of none)


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> So how do you check the clearances with oil on the bearings? Must be a wooderson trade secret.


I don't use plastigauge like the rest of you amateurs.

I install all of the bearings and caps (with no crank for the people who can't figure it out, duh) and use
my bore gauges with my mics. Any machinist can do that.

If you want to compare credentials, I'm an experienced setup machinist, as well as an A+P. That means
federally certificated aviation mechanic (airframe and powerplant). You see the federal government says
I know what I'm talking about, as I've passed all of the tests. 

Then there's you guys...:laugh:


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Who's next?? :laugh:


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

...wait,wait, I know which question is coming next. I'll let you know if I was right. :laugh:


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> I don't use plastigauge like the rest of you amateurs.
> 
> I install all of the bearings and caps (with no crank for the people who can't figure it out, duh) and use
> my bore gauges with my mics. Any machinist can do that.
> ...


I know how to check bearing clearances properly but...

Not everyone has access to measuring equipment either. Thats why they invented plasti-guage. Its a crood way of measuring, but its also pretty accurate in a general kind of way. Many an engine has been built & measured this way without problems.



How do you check end float without a crank installed?

Measuring the difference between the bearing shell thickness & the crank journal thickness isn't all that accurate, as things can move when installed.

The fed government may say you know what your talking about, but how do you check ignition timing again?

See my point? No one can know everything there is to know.

You maybe smarter than me & your credentials prove it, but....

You may know the technical way about all things mechanical (instruments, measuring devices etc), but that doesn't mean you know the logical way either.

You can be academically smart as a whip with an IQ as high as "god almighty", but that doesn't mean your street smart!


Your one of few people who have had a good experience with one piece bearing shells. But from alot of posts on Vortex & other forums around the world, your out-weighed by people who haven't.

Why didn't VW use a one-piece design from factory? Was there any reasoning behind it? 

Cause financially it would be heaps cheaper to run a one-piece setup.


I've never had problems with one-piece bearing shells, but I've seen V8's chew out one-piece bearing shells for all types of different reasons. 

One incl. the person forgot to fit the vacuum hose to the modulator, which runs the auto at full line pressure,which in turn, shoves the convertor against the crank & kills the thrust bearing. All within 10K of running.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> The fed government may say you know what your talking about, but how do you check ignition timing again?


I think I know how to check timing, but it's obvious you are trying to twist whatever I posted in another
thread. Why don't you quote my exact words from whatever you are talking about, or do you want to
just look like you're trying to make me look bad? QUOTE THE POST!


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> How do you check end float without a crank installed?


First, it's called end play, not "float." I put my mag base and indicator on the crank snout, then pry the crank back and forth.

Still trying to discredit me??


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> How do you check end float without a crank installed?


You DON'T check end play without the crank installed!! DUH.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

"I've always set mine at the 3 degrees after top dead center mark, but other Rabbbit specs I've seen at 6 before. I'm thinking I should run the most advance I can on these for best mileage. Currently getting 33mpg with 3 degrees after TDC. 100% stock fuel injected 1.7L, Any thoughts?"

Was this what you are referring to? I asked about what other guys were setting their timing to, NOT how
to time an engine.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

BTW, I run about 8 degrees, which has helped me deliver 37mpg.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> You can be academically smart as a whip with an IQ as high as "god almighty", but that doesn't mean your street smart!
> 
> Yes, all of us machinists and mechanics are "book smart." Give me a break. I'm not a pencil pusher.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> BTW, I run about 8 degrees, which has helped me deliver 37mpg.


WOW!!!

You must be very proud of yourself.

I manage to get an average of 35MPG out of my 1.8L K-Jet turbo & still make over 200hp & run lazy high 13's @ 100+mph on street rubber with wheel spin & slipping clutch.

Whats your secrets????


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Measuring the difference between the bearing shell thickness & the crank journal thickness isn't all that accurate, as things can move when installed.
> 
> .


I hope no-one has seriously tried to do this.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Whats your secrets????


55mph with a FN trans.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

:laugh:


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> 55mph with a FN trans.


So I can do 2MPG less with probably twice the HP, one less gear (I'm using a diesel 4spd) & sit on 100+km/h & travel the 200km round trip for work.
Thats with my old completely stock GX bar cam & springs too.

My new setup is alittle bit better on fuel & makes more power with less boost too.



You must be so switched on to have it so finely tuned to manage that.


Maybe I'm just a ignorant, amateur, complete fool hack who got lucky with my tune & setup.

Or maybe, just a slight chance of maybe, I have a tiny clue about how to build & tune engines?



Nah, not according to you I reckon. Its a fluke.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Your one of few people who have had a good experience with one piece bearing shells. But from alot of posts on Vortex & other forums around the world, your out-weighed by people who haven't.


That's because it is not covered in the Bentley, and for some reason, some people can't think outside that book. If it's not there, they are lost.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Maybe I'm just a ignorant, amateur, complete fool hack who got lucky with my tune & setup.


Can't argue with you on that.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> That's because it is not covered in the Bentley, and for some reason, some people can't think outside that book. If it's not there, they are lost.


Your working for the wrong people then. 

You should be employed by VW, cause you seem to know a billion times more than all their engineers put together.

& know more than all the high performance VW engine builders throughout the world who have probably been building VW engines before you were born.

In fact, all the Major manufacturers should contract you to solve all their problems. I'm sure with your vast knowledge on everything & anything, that should be a walk in the park.

Now thats arrogance at its best right there.

ALL HAIL WOODERSON!




Wooderson said:


> Can't argue with you on that.


I can deal with that.

I don't like to talk up my profession, or lack of it. 

After all I'm just a lube boy who likes to tinker. Nothing more, nothing less.

I fit in with some of my friends which are actually farmers who own, build & tune some of the fastest untubbed rotarys in the world. No mechanical backgrounds at all. Just cluey.

Maybe you should get in contact with them, & tell them where they are going wrong & how to be #1.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

All I stated was that their is absolutely nothing wrong with the two-piece design when installed correctly,

and you guys got all upset with me for not goose-stepping along with the rest of the crowd. 

You people can't think for yourselves.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> In fact, all the Major manufacturers should contract you to solve all their problems. I'm sure with your vast knowledge on everything & anything, that should be a walk in the park.
> 
> .


Most of the automotive manufacturers have used the two-piece thrust bearings for decades, and so don't
need me to tell them what they already know: there is nothing wrong with the design.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

I'm actually about to start on a 20v engine rebuild.

Maybe you could clue me in on how to build it & make it strong?

I'm looking at 450hp as a base line.

What parts/setup will I require?

What sort of fuel setup, ECU, timing base map etc will I need?

I'd like to put a 010 auto next to it. What sort of stall convertor will I need to suit my turbo?

What size tyre will I most likely need to fit to run 130mph & not have to hack out the guards?

This should be a walk in the part for someone like you!


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> I'm actually about to start on a 20v engine rebuild.
> 
> Maybe you could clue me in on how to build it & make it strong?
> 
> ...


I only drive VWs that are stock. My high performance world involves Big Block Chevys. 450 hp in a Big Chevy is pretty tame.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> I only drive VWs that are stock. My high performance world involves Big Block Chevys. 450 hp in a Big Chevy is pretty tame.


Nice! Lets talk about chev engines then.

My last small block made 542hp & 530ft.lbs. 400ci, PULP. 11.5:1CR, Mild solid roller cam. AFR's, Dual plane intake, 750UltraHP.

Nothing special, but in a 3000lbs car, should go mid 10's @ 130mph.

Thinking with the next engine, I'll step the CSA up alittle bit. 

What do you think CSA I should shoot for with a 400ci chev revving it to a max 7500rpm?


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## Preen59 (Oct 18, 2008)

Wooderson said:


> I only drive VWs that are stock.


This is where you've missed the bus, mate.

2 piece bearings are fine on a stock engine, but when you want to start turning higher RPM with a heavier clutch and if you want to put boost into it, the bearing surface isn't large enough to handle the extra force of the clutch and the crank walking. That's the key thing. The surface area on the 6 piece *VW* bearings is far greater.



Anyways, i'm off to go work on our 2500hp 392cui 90% Nitro, 25% overdriven teflon tipped 671 blown HEMI. Which, by the way, has 2 piece thrust bearings. Hahaha.















Oh, and over here we call it end *float*. We call channel locks multi grips and allen wrenches allen keys. Ketchup= Sauce.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Almost better than watching a movie!*

Entertaining this thread is, no doubt. Sometimes funny it is also, but for education purposes or the advancement of knowledge of anyone interested in automotive skills or mechanics it is sadly a total waste. Seems that many people are more interested in wasting time and effort trying to look intelegent by thinking of some childish comment to throw around which really does not address anything than using that energey to reaseach the topic or advance their knowledge. 

Well I just did something interesting, I Googled the topic using nothing more than “main bearing failure” as the search words. To my surprise, not really, the very first site that Google popped up explained almost word for word what member Wooderson stated, Hmmm. It seemed to be some kind of report or study that was conducted on the issue and one item in it refered to “alignment” of the thrust bearing as one area to counter any failure, again Hmmm. It also seemed that that article or re-worded out-takes from it were repeated many times in other forums, company web sites, and engine building sites, some of which have known names (at least to me). So I can only maybe think or suggest that people should try searching outside this forum for additional information once in a while. 

So just what have some of you members really been fussing about here anyhow? It sure does not look like anything that was asked in the original post, does it? The two piece thrust bearing was installed into VW watercooled engines from the beginning, both small and big block engines. As a replacement part, the thrust washers don’t even show up until around 1988, only the two piece design. Anyone want to take a guess as to how many original, un-rebuilt engines are still running around with these bearings in them? Many many other engine makes have used these bearings and still do, Ford, Chevy, MOPAR, without any issues I have to add. Does the switch at VW have anything to do with bearing surface area or something like that? I can’t say because except for a post or two hear I have never read or noticed any reports about that problem. Maybe the reason why the change was made was due to manufacture cost and inventory, Hmmm.

There is also an issue that to be honest I never paid attention to as I never saw the need to try and switch an engine with one type of thrust bearing to another. The newer design has a small machined slot for the tang of the thrust washers to fit into, so it does not rotate. Do the older engines even have this, can the 6 pc. Set even be fitted into say a 1.5 or 1.6? Like I said, I never saw the need to even notice if they could be interchanged, has someone ever really done this switch? If so what does this tang fit into? Also, Glyco also makes and sells the two part bearing for these motors also so enough on that bit about letting us stay with our Glyco bearings. 

My real point or bottom line is not to make anyone look bad or to takes sides (I’m not really) but to maybe get some people to stop looking for trouble where there should be none, and/or making yourself look stupid while doing so. And for others to do a few things that they don’t seem to ever do, use their Internet service for more than just forums or chatting or FaceBook or whatever, it can be a great tool to learn with and a gold mine of information (it may require a better connection if you can spend the money). The other thing is a bit more touchy for some I’m sure. In simple words, stop saying things if you really don’t know what you are talking about (perpetrating a fraud as they say). I don’t mean it all that dramatic, but it is so obvious sometimes when people make statements about something they really have no knowledge of or have never really done themselves. Posts and responses like that I find at first funny then it turns to embarrising when I think that others might believe what is being said, not good, not good at all. But that last part of the quote from a performance handbook above really says it all. You have to set the end play no matter which bearing design you use. Just because the one type uses normal bearing shells and has 4 thrust washers does not mean you do not still check/set end play. Can you just plop in the bearings and hope for the best? Sure, you can do that with any bearings in the engine. But doing things that way just sets you, or your engine really, up for failure. This is kind of the things that seperates the doers from the talkers. Anyone who has ever really built an engine, I don’t mean just throwing a few parts together and calling it a day with a pat on the back, knows that bearings need to be aligned (yes not all of them) for one reason or another, right?


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Preen59 said:


> This is where you've missed the bus, mate.
> 
> 2 piece bearings are fine on a stock engine, but when you want to start turning higher RPM with a heavier clutch and if you want to put boost into it, the bearing surface isn't large enough to handle the extra force of the clutch and the crank walking. That's the key thing. The surface area on the 6 piece *VW* bearings is far greater.


Explain to me why every Chevy, Ford, and Mopar at the dragstrip are running two-piece main bearings?

Why don't you find out what kind of bearing a Top Fuel car runs, then tell me two-piece bearings are just for stock applications?

Your post proves once again the complete ignorance by many (but not all) Vortexers.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

WaterWheels said:


> Well I just did something interesting, I Googled the topic using nothing more than “main bearing failure” as the search words. To my surprise, not really, the very first site that Google popped up explained almost word for word what member Wooderson stated, Hmmm. It seemed to be some kind of report or study that was conducted on the issue and one item in it refered to “alignment” of the thrust bearing as one area to counter any failure, again Hmmm. It also seemed that that article or re-worded out-takes from it were repeated many times in other forums, company web sites, and engine building sites, some of which have known names (at least to me). So I can only maybe think or suggest that people should try searching outside this forum for additional information once in a while.


Finally, someone besides me who can think for himself, and doesn't rely on Vortex myth.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Preen59 said:


> This is where you've missed the bus, mate.
> 
> 2 piece bearings are fine on a stock engine, but when you want to start turning higher RPM with a heavier clutch and if you want to put boost into it, the bearing surface isn't large enough to handle the extra force of the clutch and the crank walking. That's the key thing. The surface area on the 6 piece *VW* bearings is far greater.


The problem comes from not aligning the bearing "mate."


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Thinking with the next engine, I'll step the CSA up alittle bit.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

Wooderson said:


> Who's next?? :laugh:


OH, ME! ME! ME! 

dude, im a certified nasa Rocket Scientist..

what do you think of that? i can fly a space shuttle to the moon, so automatically i know EVERYTHING! ABOUT ANYTHING!!


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

I was just looking at my 1.6 caps and thet aren't machined to accept the multipiece bearings. Thus I will make do with the Wooderson bearing.

I just had to see what this know-it-all was spouting off all the time. It's pretty pointless to compare VWs to Hemis or Rats race engines, etc. Most of the original Hemis are long gone: they didn't last forever. They were based on a block design that debuted in 58 on a 350 V8. Regardless it's an entirely different breed of engine. Race engines whatever.... If you are rebuilding an engine every season or 4 times a mile its pointless to compare to a street engine that we want to last 200K+ miles.

To speak on behalf every engine ever built and say there are no problems demonstrates a real ignorance of reality and quite flawed logic.

VW redesigned the center bearing for a reason and quit the conventional bearing. History has proven it to be a good decision. Schwanzkopf can make all the arguments he wants but he can only show his ignorance by second guessing VW.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

What I find enjoyable to read is some of you experts state that "ALL" VWs suffer from the two-piece design problem, then contradict yourselves by stating stock is okay, only high performance should't use it.

You have no credability when you contradict yourselves, and all anyone has to do is reread the earlier posts.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Glegor said:


> OH, ME! ME! ME!
> 
> dude, im a certified nasa Rocket Scientist..
> 
> what do you think of that? i can fly a space shuttle to the moon, so automatically i know EVERYTHING! ABOUT ANYTHING!!


Why don't you explain to everyone what "CSA" is?

Is this what you refer to when talking about the intake centerline when degreeing a cam?

Another "float" term?

ICL = Intake Centerline

LSA = Lobe Seperation Angle

What does your acronym mean?


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

antichristonwheels said:


> To speak on behalf every engine ever built and say there are no problems demonstrates a real ignorance of reality and quite flawed logic.


I knew you'd be back. You just couldn't resist.

If you would bother to read the posts, you would have seen where I stated that their are ZERO 
problems from people who have aligned the bearing properly.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

You don't know that. You can't prove that. Nobody can. Just more BS talking outta your backside.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> Why don't you explain to everyone what "CSA" is?
> 
> Is this what you refer to when talking about the intake centerline when degreeing a cam?
> 
> ...


OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Surely someone with as much knowledge as you should know what CSA is. 

I can't believe what I'm reading!!!!!!!!!!


CSA = Cross sectional area of an intake port. Normally referred to the as the minimum cross sectional area, which is normally related to the pushrod pinch on the majority of V8's.

It only one of the most important things in building an engine for a given operating range & usage.





I tell you what. Maybe this whole thing has gotten blown out to childish BS due to the way you & many others went about it all.

Maybe, just maybe instead of name calling & being abusive to people it would be totally different.


The OP asked a question which was replied to by many, which asked how its done?

I know a few others also got on your case to, so in part many can take the blame for how the whole thread has gone

But when questioned you came straight out & started abusing people with name calling etc & then carried on with the "I know more than you & I'm not telling. Do a search" is childish right from the get go.

You could of gone about it totally different & just explained to people why its has been a problem for alot of people & then actually explained why you need to align a main bearing & how to go about it.

This place is for helping people. Not big noting. It can be a place to show off, show your wears, projects, ideas etc etc.

But carrying on like this won't help you or anyone. 

Cause after all, if your a bastard to everyone, what will happen when you need help??????????

And judging by many of your started threads asking for some kind of info or help, there isn't much interest at all.


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## vwturbofox (Jul 31, 2010)

wow i was wondering why so many replies on #3 bearing.know i see why wooderson thinks he knows it all:bs:. also a 450 bb chevy is weak build a real bb buddy like me and my dad buillt a bb ford 529 made over 750 rwhp on spray.also John Milner this guy knows what he is talking about look at his build thread. most Vortexers are vw ethusiast so we know what we are doing i have been building vw since i was 7 years old know 21 i have been around the block or two. wooderson you have no friends so when you need help on your vw i wont reply thats for sure:laugh:


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## Preen59 (Oct 18, 2008)

Wooderson said:


> The problem comes from not aligning the bearing "mate."


I'm referring only to VW engines as far as the 3 pc main bearing, dude. It's not the design itself, it's the surface area. You didn't even bother to read what I said. And you admit you've never built anything but a stock VW watercooled engine, so one has to ask..

How the **** would you know?


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Surely someone with as much knowledge as you should know what CSA is.


WMN THK ALT LK U DO - IM SPPSD TO RD THR MND.

Translated: 

Women think a lot like you do - I'm supposed to read their mind.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Preen59 said:


> I'm referring only to VW engines as far as the 3 pc main bearing, dude. It's not the design itself, it's the surface area. You didn't even bother to read what I said. And you admit you've never built anything but a stock VW watercooled engine, so one has to ask..
> 
> How the **** would you know?


Why don't you post the dimensional differences, so we can all compare the sizes.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

vwturbofox said:


> wow i was wondering why so many replies on #3 bearing.know i see why wooderson thinks he knows it all:bs:. also a 450 bb chevy is weak build a real bb buddy like me and my dad buillt a bb ford 529 made over 750 rwhp on spray.also John Milner this guy knows what he is talking about look at his build thread. most Vortexers are vw ethusiast so we know what we are doing i have been building vw since i was 7 years old know 21 i have been around the block or two. wooderson you have no friends so when you need help on your vw i wont reply thats for sure:laugh:


Another idiot who tries to twist my words, or just plain can't think clearly. If you didn't have your head up your ass, you would have realized that I said a 450 hp Big Chevy is tame when compared to the guy who asked
about building a 450 hp engine. Why don't you re-read the posts, or are you even capable??


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> .
> 
> Cause after all, if your a bastard to everyone, what will happen when you need help??????????


Put me on you ignore list, because I don't want your help.


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

Wooderson said:


> It's only undesirable because most people on the Vortex don't understand how to align the integral
> bearing when assembling an engine, and no, it's not covered in the Bentley.


This is my original post, which was followed by comments like "are you high" and "WTF are you talking about?"

So who were the *******s who started the pissing match?


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

Dude, nobody wants to talk to you. You're acting like a punk and you're getting punked. Get used to it.


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Wooderson said:


> WMN THK ALT LK U DO - IM SPPSD TO RD THR MND.
> 
> Translated:
> 
> Women think a lot like you do - I'm supposed to read their mind.


Your not suppose to try read my mind!

This should be a walk in the park for you, due to your unfathomable knowledge base.

CSA is only one of the most known acronyms in the engine building game.





I think your the one who's not reading the posts.

I just tried to calm everything down & point out where it all went wrong & asked for people to except that we are all part to blame for how its paned out & you go straight back into it.

Maybe I'll just point out who has been the most abusive here.



_ - You're another Vortex moron who's only automotive knowledge is from this website.

- I got the same response from the Vortex know-it-alls the last time some ignorant fool said that the integral bearings are junk.

- I sure know more than you do.
I love putting guys like you in your place. 

-Your buddy is an idiot whos only knowledge is VWs. 

-You're a moron because you regurgitate internet myth based on pure ignorance. How's that for a reason? 

-Actually, it's your narrow-minded brain that is plagued.

-You people have the mental capacitity of a 14 year old.

-Do you know the difference between a soft faced hammer and a steel one, or are you a complete fool?



_​
I think you have the chip on your shoulder. I think its more than a chip too. Could be something stuck in your throat too!

You have been given extra info about different bearings etc. that you didn't even mention or acknowledge (referring to the thrust bearing tab cut outs in the block & caps in the later blocks which I reckon you didn't even know about) & you still continue on like a child.

I gave you another overlooked reason why a thrust bearing can fail & I've seen fail & you still continue on like a child.




*Accept the fact you don't know everything there is to know about all things in general!!!!​*

I think I'll let it lie, cause I'm not one to bang my head against a wall. 


Knock yourself out & continue through the wonderful world of VW's (stock only VW's in your case) in the dark by "yourself"

Cause from all your posts, no one really wants to hear what you have to say or help you out & now I know why.



It just clicked to me what kind of "Forum" person you are Wooderson.

Your the type of person who sits back, thinks they know all & better, criticizes & abuses everyone from the safety of your little room at your mums house. 

You never venture out to a VW or any kind of car meet up or show & if you do, you don't tell anyone who you are, due to the fear of being bashed!!!

We have a few of the same kind of people on OZ forums. 

Its a very lonely life...........


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

antichristonwheels said:


> Dude, nobody wants to talk to you. You're acting like a punk and you're getting punked. Get used to it.


Wrong again, and don't forget you just can't get enough of reading my posts. That's why you put me on
your ignore list, yet came back and can't stop talking to me. 

If you don't want to talk to me, why are you still here? :laugh:


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> *Accept the fact you don't know everything there is to know about all things in general!!!!​*
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> Your the type of person who sits back, thinks they know all & better, criticizes & abuses everyone from the safety of your little room at your mums house.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Actually, it's your mom's house. BTW, she says "hi." :thumbup:


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

John Milner said:


> IMaybe I'll just point out who has been the most abusive here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wooderson (Nov 25, 2001)

It's been a pleasure torturing you guys. i figured early on that I would get the same ignorant replies like the 
last time I mentioned aligning thrust bearings. SEE YA, suckers :laugh:


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## John Milner (Jul 20, 2005)

Whooooo. Mum jokes! Wow! Your are clever now.

Tell my mum I'll be back for tea tonight.




You can't even quote properly!

Who's the amateur????





Wooderson said:


> If people respond to my posts in an abusive manner, then that's the tone of the thread. Don't forget who
> started the smart ass replies. Another of the many things you have chosen to ignore, and won't admit to.


Hey. I admitted to being part to blame. I'm man enough to stand up to that.

Obviously you failed English & couldn't read that.

I bet you never got your pen licence & was stuck with pencils for the rest of your school career.



Maybe you should leave modifying VW's to the big boys & go play with your tonker trucks.


I wonder how many people will agree with how I described what you may be??????


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## vwturbofox (Jul 31, 2010)

x2 go play with tonker trucks and get off this forums:wave:. also i did read that it was a tamed 450hp but sounds like you not man enough to build a real engine.
LEAVE THE VWs TO REAL ETHUSIAST


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

I just gotta get a few things said again before this might get locked. That always seems to be the case around here. I know for me it was always someone jumping in to say “shut-up” or “go away”or “can’t we all just get along” or some other form of “I can’t deal with or answer the question but I’m with stupid > “ type of response. As for me, keep going, it gives me something to read when I’m bored, kind of like the comics in the News Papers. 

Member Wooderson has made a mistake. His first post was not very diplomatic and to be honest I think I could have said about the same thing without damaging some of the tender egos around here. Member Wooderson went on to again make mistakes by allowing himself to fall into the self-indulgent ranting of some of the other members. Yeah, he is going to have to discover his own way to bring this to a close but unless others in this grand mess don’t stop pilling the garbage in the street it will keep on going like that pink rabbit.

Some have placed blame and some claim to have attempted to calm the storm, but let’s look at some of the “FACTS” which you can go back and check out for yourself if you don’t believe me.

Original post: A question about the availability of the 6 pc. Thrust bearing set for a 1.6L engine. Yes in it was criticism about the two piece bearing which left the door open for someone to attack if they wished.
The first response: A response that indicated that there is no problem with the bearings themselves but rather with the people who use them, or at least some times. The response was not well thought out as it seemed to almost be an attack on the members of the very forum it is posted in, if you wanted to see it that way. I’m sure you have all hear the old saying; “If the shoe fits – wear it”, right? The following kind of makes me think that many people here wear the same size shoes.
The next direct response to member Wooderson: Seemingly uncalled for and un-explained. To be truthful, I didn’t really get why it was posted and it would seem Wooderson didn’t either as no response about it was made by him, he just let it slide. That was followed by a few on-topic responses which I will skip.
Who started the ball rolling?: Was it the question “are you high?” No I doubt that was worth a response, but what came next was really meat to sink ones teeth into if you know a thing or two about engines and how they are built and work. Again member Wooderson did not use any kind of kid gloves as he once more insulted the tender egos of some members here. What he stated was fine and really true, but the method by which he stated it showed he was becoming sucked into the regular game here.
The “Snow Ball” effect: Things began to get bigger and louder and dumber as it went alone. For a while about 95% of what was posted had zero relation to the real issue, was full of lies, chest pounding like some monkey at a zoo, personal attacks, ultimate wisdom with absolutely no facts to back things up (but they are true cause I said it) and just plain old talking out ones butt as they say. There was a bit of truth hidden in the pile of crap but nobody seemed to ever see it or care.
I jumped in for kicks: Yeah, just for kicks as it is really totally irrelevant to me one way or the other if the bearings are sold for that engine or not (that was the question, remember). If the thread had gone in an intelligent direction I might have had a real interest, but as it sits, no. I even asked a question or two that just might have changed the course of things or brought some facts to light, but except for the original poster checking and finding something out, nobody bothered to think about the questions.
Back to business as normal: Again a flurry of bravado served with insults and topped with white lies and just because, yummy.
Light at the end of the tunnel, not!: If I say that I am sorry that something I did happened, was that an apology or the same as saying I’m sorry? No, it is eyewash to make people think I was sorry without saying it (politicians do it all the time). If I claim to be part of the problem while throwing more BS your way in the process, did I really show that I was trying to calm things down? In my book no, just another smokescreen to appear humble while being the same . . . It seems there is a little bit of boredom or apathy creeping in and a desire to bring this to an end. Shame if it ends without the facts being reviled and only due to spirits becoming weak. After all, why waste all this space and invest so much effort into something just to call it quits without answering the questions?

I’m sure anyone with a High School education knows that there are laws of logic. I would have to say that ever one of them that I can remember from my school days has not just been broken but shattered to pieces. How about some of you redeeming yourselves, standings if you like or followers opinions if that’s what drives you, and answer or research the true issue. Are the 6 pc. Thrust bearings made/sold for these engines and if so do they require any modification to be installed (changing rod caps is a modification)? What proof/facts can be shown that “area” is the reason for the claimed failure? Is the area really smaller (I already know the answer)? What kinds of bearing failure are we saying these bearings historically have? This is what should be taking up all the space, not the garbage that has been. But like I said, it is entertainment at least.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Ring Ring What's that noise?*

It's the clue phone!

Pick up Wooderson, it's for you!!


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

Wooderson said:


> It's been a pleasure torturing you guys. i figured early on that I would get the same ignorant replies like the
> last time I mentioned aligning thrust bearings. SEE YA, suckers :laugh:


most people who have such severe attitude issues, like you, get their asses beat on a daily basis.. good thing you have a computer to hide behind..

you seem like some sawed off short guy with little man syndrome.

now please, go torture other vortex users, before this thread gets deleted, and all of our accounts get the AXE also...


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