# MS1 V2.2 - no signal from MS to white wire of MSD 6A - any tests to find out why?



## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Might have had the white signal wire touch some metal IE: ground out when I was installing a new MSD. l also tried to add a tachometer adapter, part# 8910 and installed that without the diode (like the instructions say to do), and there was also no spark. I'm wondering if there was some back feed from the adapter as well as may the grounded signal wire that fed into the MS. I reflashed the ecu with the same code, but still, it appears I have no signal from Pin 27 (used for the MSD) on the MS. I tested the MSD without the MS and it does work correctly. Any suggestions? Could I have fried the MS? When starting, I still have RPM, fuel, everything but spark. 

Any help from the experts is much appreciated. Before the tach adapter and possible "grounding" of the signal wire, the car ran so nice! :banghead:

Thanks all!


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Dubrunner said:


> Might have had the white signal wire touch some metal IE: ground out when I was installing a new MSD. l also tried to add a tachometer adapter, part# 8910 and installed that without the diode (like the instructions say to do), and there was also no spark. I'm wondering if there was some back feed from the adapter as well as may the grounded signal wire that fed into the MS. I reflashed the ecu with the same code, but still, it appears I have no signal from Pin 27 (used for the MSD) on the MS. I tested the MSD without the MS and it does work correctly. Any suggestions? Could I have fried the MS? When starting, I still have RPM, fuel, everything but spark.
> 
> Any help from the experts is much appreciated. Before the tach adapter and possible "grounding" of the signal wire, the car ran so nice! :banghead:
> 
> Thanks all!


If you were using an external ignition module without the MSD (as opposed to a VB921 or BIP373 on the MS) that is your problem. The MSD requires a stronger signal on the white wire than the logic level circuitry can provide.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> If you were using an external ignition module without the MSD (as opposed to a VB921 or BIP373 on the MS) that is your problem. The MSD requires a stronger signal on the white wire than the logic level circuitry can provide.


Prof,

Thanks for your insight, I know how busy the experts are on here.  However, I'm not sure I understand. I'm using a stock VW Digifant/Motronic coil, powered by the MSD which receives signal from the MS itself - no ignition module. Before I installed the tach adapter, the combination was working smoothly. I wanted to see if I could get my tach to work, so tried using the gray wire on the new digital MSD 6A (12V, square wave). That didn't work, so I went and purchased a MSD TACH ADAPTER 8910. Installed it according to instructions - then nothing worked. My board IS modded to send a signal through pin 27 to the MSD and was working just fine. Now, I'm fearing the MS has been damaged and there is now no signal to the MSD to initiate spark to the coil.

Things I've tried - 
* New 12V switched source for the MSD - no affect
* Used the test here: http://www.msdignition.com/page.aspx?id=3206 - no spark
* However, took the MSD to a testing machine at the local parts store, it tested fine
* Swapped out the coil for another that was known to be good - still no spark
* reflashed the MS to be sure that a backfeed issue had not screwed it up
* Double-checked the map after reflash to be sure all is where it was before

I want to try to test the MS at pin 27, to see if there is even a signal coming out to the white wire on the MSD now, but not sure how to go about that process. OR, heaven forbid, I have to send out the ECU to one of you guys.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Dubrunner said:


> Prof,
> 
> Thanks for your insight, I know how busy the experts are on here.  However, I'm not sure I understand. I'm using a stock VW Digifant/Motronic coil, powered by the MSD which receives signal from the MS itself - no ignition module. Before I installed the tach adapter, the combination was working smoothly. I wanted to see if I could get my tach to work, so tried using the gray wire on the new digital MSD 6A (12V, square wave). That didn't work, so I went and purchased a MSD TACH ADAPTER 8910. Installed it according to instructions - then nothing worked. My board IS modded to send a signal through pin 27 to the MSD and was working just fine. Now, I'm fearing the MS has been damaged and there is now no signal to the MSD to initiate spark to the coil.
> 
> ...


Ok question 1: What tach are you trying to run? Mk1? Mk2? Mk3? aftermarket?

2: Does the car run if the tach adapter is removed?

3: Do you have a stim?


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Ok question 1: What tach are you trying to run? Mk1? Mk2? Mk3? aftermarket?
> 
> 2: Does the car run if the tach adapter is removed?
> 
> 3: Do you have a stim?


----

1) MK2 CE2 16V/8V tachometer

2) Car does not run at all now after trying the tach adapter one time. Even when I put every wire back to the correct position. 12.5 volts measured at battery - HOWEVER - the switched power, black coil wire I was using for +15 (switched power) for the MSD, seems to be dead now (no voltage with key on). It was working before and sending correct voltage to the MSD. Yes, I checked fuses at the fusebox. I have no idea why the OEM black coil wire no longer reads 12volts - maybe something fried in the fuse box from a high voltage burst from the Tach adapter? Any ideas on that one?

So, moved MSD wire to fused output on my relay board (runs Injectors, O2, and MS Ecu), and at the board, their is SOMETIMES 12volts, sometimes not. This could be why the MS is only showing 1 LED when cranking (intermittent power). So, checked the switched power wire to the relay, it always reads 12volts. Next check was the ground wire to the relay itself, that was sort of okay, but not constant. Plugged relay in again, turned on key, now only 5 volts at the board - the relay for the board might be bad. I still can't understand why the relay board might read 12Vlts, but as soon as I take the wire out to the MSD and hook it up, there is no voltage at the end of the wire to the MSD, (even trying a few different grounds). Something "ain't" right here. UGH!

So, I'm now changing the ground wire and relay at my board. Then testing I have 12volts at the board outputs. THEN, I'll connect a new wire to the MSD and test that voltage. THEN, I'll try to start it again.

3) I do not have a Stim.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Update:

Swapped out relay on relay board, nice 12volt signal now present across all outputs. As well, took another reading with a good ground and found that there is indeed 12volts going to the MSD from the original, black coil wire (as well as another wire I ran directly from my relay board to the MSD - just to double-check). So, the MSD is receiving all it needs for power to produce a spark...except for maybe a signal from the MS. This doesn't seem good.

I have the injectors and fuel pump disconnected so that I could test for spark (plug wire with plug in it aimed at the tranny - no spark) without fowling the plugs. Result, no LED came on for the ECU when I first turned the key on. I tested voltage at the output to the MS and it was 12volts, strong. Cycled the key and then the LED (closes to the DB9 connetor), flickered on and I commenced cranking the engine. The LED blinked with cranking, but still no spark from the MSD. My guess is either something is screwy in the MS or there is a setting that was "reset" when whatever happened with the addition of the tach adapter. So, I've eliminated the problems with the MSD (as I had it tested too), so I'm left with something going on with the board it seems. ???


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

MS1 chips are a little fragile... you might have killed it.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> MS1 chips are a little fragile... you might have killed it.


Hoping that is not the case, but did some more tests to be sure. Removed the distributor to test the Hall sender (to see if a signal is being sent to the MS unit). With distributor removed, key turned on, and voltmeter hooked up to the back of the Hall sender plug - I rotated it by hand and heard the injectors turning on with every pass of the window, as well as received 4.9 volts to the power wire in the hall sender. I also hooked a voltmeter up to the middle "green" wire that is connected to Pin 24, and did the same procedure. That was all over the board and fluctuated between 0 and up to almost 12v at some passes. So, the Hall sender appears to be sending out appropriate info. I'm not sure how I would test the spark signal out to the MS other than seeing an RPM signal in TunerStudio when I crank it (which I do). So, by that reasoning, the Hall sender should be working and sending the correct signal, BUT, the MS is not sending that signal out to the MSD through the output (Pin 27). 

Guess I can send it out to Need_A_VR6 (Paul) or ValveCoverGasket (he's close) - to see if they can test it.  Not what I had wanted to do, but this whole MS thing seems to be filled with pain more so than victories so far. Par for the course.

Prof, thanks for your help. If you can think of anything else, it is much appreciated. :thumbup:


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## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

Those MSD boxes can be super finicky. I would take a stock vw ICM and stick it in and see if you get spark. If you do, buy a mallory 6a (better output and in my experience last a lot longer the MSD's) :beer:

if the led is blinking when you crank, it seems to me the MSD box is the issue...Have you got your settings correct for running the MSD box in the squirt? Also, try a re-flash, I have seen some pretty goofy issues cleared up with a re-flash and re-loading the settings


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

-RalleyTuned- said:


> Those MSD boxes can be super finicky. I would take a stock vw ICM and stick it in and see if you get spark. If you do, buy a mallory 6a (better output and in my experience last a lot longer the MSD's) :beer:
> 
> if the led is blinking when you crank, it seems to me the MSD box is the issue...Have you got your settings correct for running the MSD box in the squirt? Also, try a re-flash, I have seen some pretty goofy issues cleared up with a re-flash and re-loading the settings


Hmmm, this new MSD 6A is digital and their new design as of May of this year (direct replacement for the old 6A). It seems to work well, but given I replaced TWO of the last non-digital, old design boxes, I would tend to agree with you. I have heard good things about the Mallory boxes, too. Of course, that doesn't work well for the $170 spent on the MSD already. How would one go about hooking up a stock VW ICM to a board that was meant to use a MSD - I'm not too keen on rewiring to the Hall and such (harness already covered and done) - as well as modding the V2.2 board. Any suggestions?

Also, I already reflashed the ECU yesterday, using the same code as before. Followed the steps to update the firmware and just overwrote with the same code, then reloaded the prior settings (which were working and correct before). Unfortunately, there were no changes to the spark when I tried to restart it this morning. I'll probably take another look at it tomorrow night, but it seems like everything I've tried has been working properly except for the MS signal output.

Thanks for all the help guys!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Check the msd by grounding the white wire, you should get spark. If not there is something up with the msd. You should be able to trigger it with the led circuit or a bip, the trigger signal just needs to invert. Does the spark led flash while cranking?


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Paul,

Yeah, this was the FIRST thing I checked to be sure when it didn't run after the Tach Adapter install. I even took the box down to my local Baxter's who have an MSD test machine and it checked out fine. I've checked all the power wires (they all seem good with a voltmeter), swapped out a coil (just to see if there was something up with that coil) and again tried the white wire to ground, key on, test. I may try it again today for a triple check, to be sure. If not, I will take the box again to Baxters and have them test it. If the box decides to not cooperate, I'll just have them replace it.

Yes, the LED 17 does light up when cranking. AND, I've tested the Hall and its sending the signal to the MS (removed dist, turned on key and rotated rotor by hand) - injectors click, and voltage from the middle pin on the Hall has weird fluctuations from 0 - 12v when turning the windows, so I'm assuming the Hall sensor is good. The ECU has been reflashed and is running the same Map it was when it was running smoothly. Just can't seem to put my finger on it - but I'm suspecting the board itself. I may try new power wires for the MSD (just to be triple sure those are good) and try it again. Man, I'm upset that I ever messed with it, but damn, I DO need my tach to work AND have it run!

If LED 18 is set to IRQ trigger, I should be seeing the LED blink for the Hall signal correct? That light never comes on when cranking - so I was a little concerned about that...?


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Update:

I retested the MSD box with a different ground and its sparking with the "white wire test". SO, the MSD is working fine. There MUST be an issue with the MS somewhere, but I think I can rule out Spark settings as they are the same as when it was running before. Anything else besides taking out the MS and looking inside to see if something is haywire in there?

Incidentally, my *&[email protected]#% distributor cracked when trying to reinstall it - POS! Just wouldn't go in the head correctly (yes, pins were lined up with the rotor) - I guess I need to pop the VC and loosen up the cap to get a new one in smoothly. :banghead: - I swear, one thing after another. And this is supposed to be fun? 

*** NEWS ***

Just received an email from Matt Cramer over at DIY Autotune (those guys do rock). He suspects I


> smoked the Q9 transistor


 - given that there is no signal out to the MSD. With the MSD and the Hall sensor working, the middle man is the MS. I guess I'm going to remove the ECU an check to see if there is any signs of crusty transistor in the Q9 position. IF so, that is great, at least I know what happened. And, I can then have someone solder a new one in. Update coming shortly!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have never had that transistor go bad and still trigger the led.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

> need_a_VR6
> 
> I have never had that transistor go bad and still trigger the led.


^ You know, I was actually in the process of pulling out the ECU when I had this same thought. If the transistor went bad, WHY would the LED its connected to, flicker when cranking? Its unlikely, but maybe there is a bad solder joint there...? For the time being, I've left it in until I get the new Dizzy on Monday. If it doesn't start again, I'll be arranging someone with a Stim to have a look. Everything else seems to work - MSD is working, the Hall sensor, LED 17, I've checked the settings for spark 5 times - anything else I should check for? I'm nearly at my wits end with this and have NO idea why it just stopped running.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Well, this could be interesting. New distributor is coming today, but I did some further testing this weekend and without a Stim or oscilloscope, it will be impossible to see if there is a signal coming out from the MS to MSD box. If someone has the means to test the box to see if it sends RPM through a Stim, I'd be open to sending the ECU to you. Other than that, I'm not sure what comes next...?


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Update>>

IT RUNS AGAIN! 

Hooked everything back up and had a friend watch the LED's when I cranked the engine over (I couldn't see them clearly when turning the key) - and low and behold, the D17 LED did NOT light up. The Hall sender LED (D18) was flashing when cranking, which means the trigger was sending - BUT NOT the spark. Pulled the ECU out, opened the case and started testing the LED transistors. Wouldn't you know it, the NPN 2A2222N transistor for D17 was showing continuity across its legs (the others did not). Fast forward through two electronics stores and then to Radio shack for a replacement - solder new transistor in, clean board and VIOLA, light on D17 LED AND spark out of the MSD.

Result: Everything seems back to where it was and I'm VERY relieved. Thanks to all for the help and lesson in tracing steps and testing. Now, through the guidance of Matt over at DIY Autotune, he suggested trying the tach adapter 8920 from MSD, which uses the tach output from the MSD itself and then transmits the correct signal without going directly from the Megasquirt > White wire connection. 

However, if anyone has another suggestion for making the tach work with MK2 Digifant/Motronic CE2 and MSD 6A so I don't blow another transistor, PLEASE let me know. 

Thanks again guys! :thumbup:


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Ah ha - this may work:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3724123

OK, the MSD 8920 has 4 wires. A red, a black, a violet, and a white.

Red...........Key-on power (no brainer)

Black........Ground source (no brainer)

White.......TACH OUTPUT 

*** ^ This would actually connect to the MSD tach output wire - THUS - nothing touching the MS/MSD connection (no voltage into the MS board) - yet still sending a signal to the adapter and then the cluster ***

Violet......TACH INPUT (G1 pin number 12 on CE-2 engine harness)

:sly: Hmmmm....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would just build the ms tach output circuit w a relay coil pullup.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

I think I trigger my tach and MSD5 from the same trigger from the MS. It is an aftermarket tach, about 25yrs newer than the car(so I'm sure it has a much higher Z than the older stock tachs).


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I would just build the ms tach output circuit w a relay coil pullup.


 
^ Hmm, given my fortuitous tendency to blow things up on my board, I'm not sure I would attempt to build that thing. I don't even know what a relay coil pullup is.  




> ps2375 -
> 
> I think I trigger my tach and MSD5 from the same trigger from the MS. It is an aftermarket tach, about 25yrs newer than the car(so I'm sure it has a much higher Z than the older stock tachs.


 ^ Don't know if that would work because I believe the MK2 CE2 cluster runs off the Negative side of the coil, straight to the fuse box and into the Tachometer. So it will be looking for high voltage tach output.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Dubrunner said:


> Don't know if that would work because I believe the MK2 CE2 cluster runs off the Negative side of the coil, straight to the fuse box and into the Tachometer. So it will be looking for high voltage tach output.


 You could try it and see what happens. I think we are driving the tach in the 80' Scirocco the same way or from the tach output on the MSD, and it works.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

ps2375 said:


> You could try it and see what happens. I think we are driving the tach in the 80' Scirocco the same way or from the tach output on the MSD, and it works.


 Well, I know when I hooked the gray, tach out wire from the MSD - to the red/black coil wire that receives a signal from the coil and then sends it to the cluster - that did not work. So, I don't think the signal that comes out of the MSD is enough to get the stock tach working.  

I'm not sure the MS tach out would send the correct signal without the circuit, need_a_VR6, mentioned. Crap!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The "relay coil pullup" really just that, you use a relay coil (pins 85/86) to go from your tach output signal to a 12v source. The coil puts just enough inductive spike on the signal line to get past the input resistor on a tach that normally triggers off the coil - terminal. You might be able to do the same with the MSD tach output and it's probably what's inside one of the many MSD tach adapters


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The "relay coil pullup" really just that, you use a relay coil (pins 85/86) to go from your tach output signal to a 12v source. The coil puts just enough inductive spike on the signal line to get past the input resistor on a tach that normally triggers off the coil - terminal. You might be able to do the same with the MSD tach output and it's probably what's inside one of the many MSD tach adapters


 :sly: wait a minute - I think I see what you mean. Can you confirm the points on the graphic below? I'm guessing its just a regular relay that can be used...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yes regular relay. Once you get it working and the buzzing drives you nuts open it up and cut the contact out of it.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

> need_a_VR6
> 
> Yes regular relay. Once you get it working and the buzzing drives you nuts open it up and cut the contact out of it.


^ Okay, I need a visual on how this should work. The schematic I showed above does not help me much with the relay connections themselves. Even an napkin drawing that had the correct parts and where they go would help. Any help is appreciated! I'd much rather save the $60 instead of buy the MSD box.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

*Tach adapter Planning - Build one or buy one?*



need_a_VR6 said:


> Yes regular relay. Once you get it working and the buzzing drives you nuts open it up and cut the contact out of it.


Ah, I found this post through searching the 'net - 
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=24507

Which does help in understanding what things go where for this relay. Problems:










1) Red Arrow: What is the 1K square deely from MS to the 3 legged transistor? Is it a resistor and if so, what is the suggested wattage (if it is indeed 1000K ohms)?

2) Yellow Arrow: This looks like the normal 3 legged transistor that is used for Spark (like the one I blew up with the MSD adapter). I assume you solder the three legs according to the diagram - but other than the ground, which is which?

3) Blue Arrow: I've been trying to figure out which pin I can use for this output. How can I identify which pin I can use on my board? TS gives me options in More Settings - 

X2 - JS0
X3 - JS1
X4 - JS2
X5 - JS3
Output 3
Pin10

But I have no idea if I can use any of these?

Otherwise, I know the following from the post above:

87 to MSD tacho out / megasquirt tach out, 
30 to ground, 
85 to red/black tacho wire, 
86 to switched 12v positive / positive coil lead. (possible diode (1N4001 type) between the winding leads with the cathode (-) towards the +12v side (between terminals 30 and 86) with the banded end of the diode towards 86)
-----------

Barring creating that monstrosity. I've been told by MSD to use an 8910EIS (which I didn't have in the beginning). However, looking at the installation PDF, I can't see how this works as the Red/Black wire that goes to the fuse box (for the tach) is supposed to connect to the MS wire and those two then through the BLACK wire to the Adapter. I don't see how the feed from the MS will feed the tach as it needs Voltage, and the MS won't be supplying enough of that to make it work. 

http://www.msdignition.com/instructions/Products/Accessories/8910_EIS.pdf

I was advised by Matt at DIY Autotune to try an 8920. Which seemed to be a great fit, until I started looking at the different options. 

http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedFiles/MSDIgnitioncom/Products/Accessories/8920_instructions.pdf

1) Magnetic Pickup Distributor and a Voltage Triggered Tach.

I have a Voltage Triggered Tach, but not using the Magnetic Pickup (** Maybe, could use the white wire from the diagram though...as Matt was suggesting ???)

2) Current Triggered Tach to Points/Amplifier or Magnetic Pickup.

Not using Current Triggered Tach, but AM using White wire on the MSD (SO this option would not work)

I've done a crapload of research, but any help would be appreciated. I HATE not having a tach and really don't want to go aftermarket (for simplicity off of the MSD tach output). Thanks all!


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Anyone have a diagram for a visual person? I'm about ready to try this MSD 8120 (it was free) wired in a way that I "think" can work, but would really like a back-up to use this relay if possible. Thanks!


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