# Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This?



## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

I was just approaching 1000 miles on my new clutch/flywheel/pressure plate installation with no problems when I accelerated from a stop a bit faster than usual and the clutch seemed to slip.







Over the next couple trips, the "clutch slipping" got a bit more and more pronounced.







I was trying to troubleshoot why a nearly new clutch was slipping on these few trips. 
My theory was that the new slave cylinder wasn't retracting all of the way in when the clutch pedal was released (I replaced the slave cylinder during the clutch job because fluid had bypassed the old slave cylinder piston and was inside the dust boot, perhaps a cause of the last clutch failure).







I bled the system several times with no improvement, and suspected a bad clutch master cylinder or deteriorating brake fluid reservoir to clutch master cylinder hose which I was going to replace before replacing the clutch master cylinder. I was also going to look under the dash to make sure the clutch pedal wasn't prevented from coming all of the way up for some reason.








But, alas, my troubleshooting never got that far.







As I was rounding a corner, in the middle of the corner I felt and heard something under my car in the vicinity of the powertrain go terribly wrong. It felt as though one of my CV axles had departed the car in mid turn!







I had suspected that a bad CV joint could have been one of the alternate causes besides the main suspect of a slipping clutch. 
After the event, I coasted down the road, and it soon became apparent the transmission no longer drove the wheels. The engine ran fine, it was just like I was in neutral no matter what gear I was in.








Because of the violent nature of the event at the corner and more parts heard to fall or spin from the car as I coasted down the road at 2 AM, I suspected a simple CV joint failure.








The next day I had the car towed home, and I jacked it up today to see what really went wrong and take some pics of what happened. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Here are the pictures of the explosion aftermath in the differential area of my 02j







:
























Looks like an easy fix, huh?--I didn't think so either.







A part of the tranny casing blew off that held the vehicle speed sensor. I noticed about half the teeth on the vehicle speed sensor gear were missing. You can see the edge of this loose piece in one of the pictures.








Naturally, after all of the work of putting in the new clutch to only have another portion of the tranny expode less than 1000 miles later after changing to redline fluid (the old fluid looked like chocolate milk







) and putting in a magnetic drain plug, I'm POed,







to say the least. The car is a 1998 Beetle with a DZQ code 02j tranny.
What are the expert opinions on the cause of this? I've seen one post on exploding VW differentials in a racing/drag strip environment. I never put the car under those conditions. I was actually trying to baby the new clutch to make it last.







I did notice that when "the clutch slipped" when I was going fast downhill the car wanted to pull to one side, which made me suspect CV joint problems.








I heard that these integral VW differentials in these trannys are "underengineered."







If that is so, is there some class action or recall on this defect? What is the specific defect? The post I saw stated something about the pinion being too weak for the application of a daily driver. This car had 130K of non-race driving on it before it exploded.








I noticed that some places sell, and some here tout "Limited Slip Differentials" (LSDs) that cost as must as the tranny itself.







Are these to eliminate the defective differential from VW?
Where do I go from here?







I'm pretty sure it wasn't the clutch slipping and it was the differential going out all along the two or three short trips before it exploded through the tranny case. Is there a cheap source of rebuilt trannys that have had this manufacturing defect eliminated during the rebuild? I paid $2000 for the car as a fixer upper, and the clutch replacement I had no problem in spending the money for as 130K on a clutch isn't bad, but $1500 or more for a rebuilt tranny that won't explode is ridiculous, in my opinion.







Or do I get another tranny from $500 to $900 from the junkyard or ebay and swap it out and just hope for a good many miles before it explodes as well?







Or should I disassemble it and "exposion proof" the differential in it in some way only you guys would know?







I did a complete rebuild on my Chevy 10 bolt rear differential which has been trouble free, so I can do such work. Can I get satisfaction from VW even though the car is ten years old as others have had this defect happen?







VW experts please give me your advice, including if I should stick with a 02j DZQ tranny replacement or go with a "bolt in" upgrade of some kind that may survive daily driving?
Thanks for any expertise you can give me on this matter in advance.


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## Broke (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I did notice that when "the clutch slipped" when I was going fast downhill the car wanted to pull to one side, which made me suspect CV joint problems.









Diff problems, the diff was letting go, and binding up one side, causing the car to pull.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I heard that these integral VW differentials in these trannys are "underengineered."

Pretty much... there are a few small things they could do to help prevent these things.
Your trans has suffered what is known as SMS, Self Machining Syndrome, and it has been happening to VW trans since the early 80's.
They use rivets to secure the ring gear to the diff carrier, in your first pic, they are the coin looking things with the dimple in the middle. That is the first problem, the ring gear should be bolted, but they use rivets.
The other issue is the cross shaft in the diff which the spider gears spin on. There are 4 small gears in the diff that make up the "diff" itself... one gear is connected to each axle flange on the trans, and the other 2 gears are on a shaft that runs through the diff carrier.
That shaft, if it slides out of the diff carrier, will make a hole exactly like you have in your trans. On the 020 trans, the shaft is secured with 2 rivets on each side of it with larger heads than the other rivets. The shaft beats into the rivet heads, knocks them out of the way, and it slides out. The fix is to secure the shaft with circlips... and the shaft has grooves for them no less. Some trans had circlips, some large head rivets, some both.
On newer trans, the shaft is held with a split roll pin driven into the shaft. The end of the shaft breaks off, leaving the pin in place, and the shaft slides out.
This is an older 020 diff, but it shows what the bolt kit does. Your cross shaft will probably be pinned in place.... http://www.brokevw.com/020diff.html

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I noticed that some places sell, and some here tout "Limited Slip Differentials" (LSDs) that cost as must as the tranny itself.







Are these to eliminate the defective differential from VW?

They do that, but the point of them is to drive power to both wheels, while the stock diff will allow one wheel to spin and the other does nothing, a LSD will drive both wheels. A side effect of installing one is you get rid of the weak VW diff.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Is there a cheap source of rebuilt trannys that have had this manufacturing defect eliminated during the rebuild?

I don't know about cheap, but any rebuilt trans from a reputable rebuilder will have a bolt kit installed to prevent SMS in the future. It won't stop the spider gears from exploding, but it does sort out the rivets and shaft problem. An LSD will cure all of it, but it's really not cheap when added into a rebuild invoice!

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_do I get another tranny from $500 to $900 from the junkyard or ebay and swap it out and just hope for a good many miles before it explodes as well?







Or should I disassemble it and "exposion proof" the differential in it in some way only you guys would know?







I did a complete rebuild on my Chevy 10 bolt rear differential which has been trouble free, so I can do such work.

A transaxle rebuild will be a bit more involved than a rear end diff rebuild, because everything is contained in one box, but your current box is toast. See if the rebuilder will give you anything for it as a core on some of the parts (stuff like the gear sets should be OK, the rest will be junk... shafts, R&P, case, bearings, etc.), but it is scrap as far as rebuilding that one goes. You'll have more into used parts than you would if you'd just buy a used trans and have it rebuilt before installing.
You can also see if they can source you one, but you're correct on a used one being just another waiting game. It might happen, it might not... but installing or having someone install for you a bolt kit will prevent it frmo happening.
Roll the trans over, and look for one of the rivets to have failed and be missing, the shaft to be poking out, or a spider gear to be exploded.


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## zakrabt (Apr 27, 2005)

Not to discredit what Broke said, but as a dealership mechanic for about 5yrs, I never saw one of these transmissions do the "self machining." While it is common enough, it's not an every day type failure and your trans. has deffinitely been "beefed up" from the 020/02a days. Just my experience.
You mentioned that when you changed the fluid, it came out looking like "chocolate milk." While it is normal for trans fluid to look very dirty, it will still have a general golden colour with gold or black "pearlescent" flakes in it (factory fluid) or it may look just like auto tranny fluid (aftermarked fluid). 
You don't mention as to whether you knew the original owner, I'd be willing to bet that while you did not subject this transmission to abuse, someone down the line did. I understand your frustration, this kind of thing sucks but I still submit that something like this doesn't "just happen."


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (Broke)*

Thanks Zakrabt, and especially you, Broke. I think everyone recognizes your expertise in this area. 
Wow. I'll try to get a better look inside the tranny when the weather improves and see which failure mode it was. What a dumb way to secure the pinion shaft!







So much for german engineering. And these are aluminum rivets no less? Aluminum is a much softer metal than the alloy the ring gear is made out of, I guess, and likely galvanically incompatible. Inside the tranny "environment," galvanic corrosion is probably prevented by the components always being covered in fluid, but it still is pretty dumb.
Zakrabt says he hasn't seen this in five years at a dealership, but that it is "common enough." That is an indictment in itself, I guess.
Sounds like each "re-engineering" attempt to fix this weakness has failed. Maybe VW doesn't care because this usually happens after the warranty expires? Then people just buy a new VW, they hope? Planned self destruction?
I thought an 020 transmission was different than an 02J. Excuse my ignorance. I think I saw a few posts about people putting an 02m in replacing an 02J or vice versa for some reason. I assume an 02m is a later beffier version or maybe a six speed tranny. Off topic, I'd love to have a six speed as it always seemed 5th was not the best ratio for the top gear, and even though I had a 140 mph speedometer, the engine would have to go way beyond redline to get anywhere near there. Should there be an RPM limit under the red line on the factory tach because of this defect in VW differentials? The most I took it up to was about 3900 RPM which translated into about 80 MPH. I didn't want to push the engine or tranny beyond that. Although the position of the redline and the MPH limit of the speedo would falsely infer to the driver that this was a car capable of high performance without blowing up.
Hmmm. Why do people want to drive both wheels? Racing? Drag Strip? Schreeching rubber from the tirse around corners? Those LSDs are ridiculously pricey.
Spider gears exploding? So, if you install the bolt kit and circlips, the spider gears become the next weak point in the system? Are there special spider gears that don't explode? Or do they only do that if the tranny gets overheated and they consequently get brittle from too much "heat treatment"? Now I'm shaking my head at these VW engineers.








If you buy a 2009 VW Beetle, will the tranny still have some of these defects, or are there new ones these engineers created while trying to fix past problems, like they've done with the roll pin?
You do this for a living, right? how much do you charge for a DZQ or compatible tranny with a bolt kit mod? I could do it with your great website instructions, but I dont have a press. I'd probably have to have the rebuilder do it, if I go rebuilt instead of auto graveyard sourced.
I saw a few trannys at our local VW shop, Ovals Motorsport, in Federal Way, WA, where I got a new slave cylinder and oil cap (when I had it at the dealer for an oil change they complained about the "aftermarket" metal oil cap on the engine and wanted to "fix it"). I think they wanted $695 to $895, but I think they were just unrebuilt pulls and likely not compatible with my rig. They cater to mostly older VW beetles and buses, etc.
Got any advice on what to look for that will work without significant mods instead of the DZQ (so I have more options to look for besides the DZQ)? My engine is an AEG. 
And, O' great keeper of VW transmission knowledge, any of the compatible trannys I should stay away from? I bet you'll say I should stay away from DZQs, LOL?
I'll get out to try to peer inside the cracked case to report back to you on which failure mode it was.
And anyone on this board who has had this problem and wants to write a complaint letter to VW with me about it, please let me know. These puppies should last more that 130K before they explode. Ideally, they would die of "nautral causes" after a long and full life, and not thusly "have their chest explode" and alien objects come out ala the Alien movie series when they die (sorry for the bad analogy).
Thanks again. Broke. Thanks to VW trans problems, I'm broke as well! Thought I had bulletproofed this thing for many more K. Didn't even get one more before the unknown "alien" object sprang forth from it, killing it.


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## Broke (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_And these are aluminum rivets no less?

They are a soft steel. Soft enough to drill, but they're steel, and magnetic.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I thought an 020 transmission was different than an 02J.

It is... the 02J is much like the 02A. The 02A is similar to the 020 in design to a point, but they are different trans... on the 02A the selector mech. is different, the output shaft is easier to remove, the trans in general is easier to get apart, the bearing design is different for the input shaft, and generally everything is larger and more beefy than the 020.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Should there be an RPM limit under the red line on the factory tach because of this defect in VW differentials?

With the 020, it doesn't matter. Little old ladies have it happen to them, kids racing on the street have it happen to them, and while abuse will make it happen more quickly, they don't need abused to fail, at least on the 020. On the later trans, I simply don't have enough experience with them to say for sure.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Hmmm. Why do people want to drive both wheels? Racing? Drag Strip? Schreeching rubber from the tirse around corners? Those LSDs are ridiculously pricey.

Traction!
The open diff leaves something to be desired when traction is at a minimum, because it will send the power to the wheel with the least amount of traction. In hard corners, the inside tire starts spinning under power... that means the car isn't accelerating like it could be. If the power were not sent to that wheel, it wouldn't spin (it has less traction due to less weight on it on the inside of a hard turn under power), and the other wheel, the one with more weight on it and greater traction would be pulling the car through the corner, instead of uselessly spinning the inside tire.
For rain and snow and other bad driving conditions, it can help out in the same way, but allowing both tires to pull, and not letting one spin out. That could be the difference between getting through the intersection in time, and slowly getting through it as one wheel spins wildly instead of moving the car.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Spider gears exploding? So, if you install the bolt kit and circlips, the spider gears become the next weak point in the system?

On the 020, only if abused or simply worn out. They're not like the rivets, which are more likely to just fail even without any abuse than the spider gears. They take a beating under heavy input torque from built motors, hard launches, and shock sent into the drivetrain (slamming gears, clutch drops, etc.).... but as you strengthen one part, something else has to give when it comes time.
With the 020, if there is a bolt kit in it, and 2nd gear and reverse lasts long enough that the trans can stay together long enough, it is possible that the spider gears would be next to let go, either from abuse, or wear. They tend to cavitate after time (or with poor oil) and that just leads to more flaking and damage to the gear faces, and they'll eventually fail. They will do pretty much the same thing as a loose rivet around that ring gear and diff, there just isn't any room in there for extra loose parts to spin around, so the softer aluminum case loses in the end.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_If you buy a 2009 VW Beetle, will the tranny still have some of these defects, or are there new ones these engineers created while trying to fix past problems, like they've done with the roll pin?

That I don't know, the 020 stuff I know from working on them, the 02A stuff I know from reading about them on here from others who rebuild them (I never found the time away from 020s to get started on the newer stuff)... Zakrabt can probably tell you what is inside the newer trans. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_You do this for a living, right?

I'm a jobless bum for a living.








I do the trans work on the side. Not enough to burn myself out on it, but enough to stay busy and usually have something up on the bench. 

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_how much do you charge for a DZQ or compatible tranny with a bolt kit mod?

I appreciate you asking, but unfortunately at the moment, I've only got the tools and parts for the 020 trans, I just never moved into the newer trans. I have a good chunk of the tools for them (the same tools are used on most of the trans types from VW), but I never got around to buying up a pile of core trans to get any notes started on them as far as what changes were made and when and what parts interchange and so on like I've compiled for the 020.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Got any advice on what to look for that will work without significant mods instead of the DZQ (so I have more options to look for besides the DZQ)? My engine is an AEG.

Sorry, I sure don't, I just don't have the experience with the newer stuff









_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I'll get out to try to peer inside the cracked case to report back to you on which failure mode it was.

Please do, I'm interested to see what you find. If possible, look at both sides of the diff, spin it over if you can and look at each side of the rivets, and then the spiders and the shaft, see if any of it looks like it failed.
Another possible cause in the 020 is the small taper bearing under the output shaft. It is inly loaded on engine over-run, but that's enough to cause it to fail, and the rollers like to try and escape. When they get loose, the R&P set usually takes the hit, and it can lead to a hole in the case.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Thanks to VW trans problems, I'm broke as well!

That's pretty much how I decided on a username for the 'net at the time.








I hope you get it taken care of fairly easily http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (Broke)*

Wow, you're fast, Broke. Thanks very much. First I'll reply to your post, then give you the verdict on my inspection less than 30 minutes ago of the interior of the breach in the tranny case.
Thanks. I thought by the look of them in your pics they were aluminum. Maybe German Engineering is not quite as bad as I thought.
Thanks for educating me on the 02X pedigree. Interesting info from the one who is the go to source on the subject. I'm much less confused now.
Hmmm...sure sounds like a design defect if it is irregardless of the driver's habits, even if the jury is still out on 02A and later trans.
Wow...thanks for the info on the reason for the LSD. I guess its the same reason off roader's like LSDs on their trucks, jeeps, etc.
Ouch...seems like they would have engineered the spider gears to be beefy enough they don't have such a failure mode.
Hey, we both have something in common, then!








Nice to know you enjoy it.
020 expert you are. Too bad someone doesn't take a similar interest in the 02A and on. Til then, I guess you are our resident expert anyway on them.
LOL about the name source. Thanks for the kind thoughts, but after the clutch replacement, I'm not looking forward to it again, although this time I will be able to R&R it without notes from the internet. Seriously considering dropping the whole subframe if possible next time. Even after removing the passenger side output flange it was a real pain to get it in and out. There seems to be repeatable way to do it as there is so little room to work with. Tried to "rotate it counterclockwise, etc., per instructions and that didn't seem to help significantly.
Thanks again for answering my questions. How do you quote sections of my post in your post? It looks cool.
And now for the results of my inspection:
(Drum roll please)
Suspected cause:
Rivet failure: No. All rivets seemed to be in place. Some were beaten up by the cause of the case breach, but they weren't the cause themselves.
Pinion shaft departing: No. Pinion shaft was in place, although I don't know what retained it. No larger head rivets next to ends. The one end I could see was just under flush in the carrier, so it wasn't retained by circlips as I could tell (couldn't spin the carrier).
Spider gear exploding: Yes!!! Both were missing from the pinion shaft. Part of one gear was visible laying in the bottom of the case. It was these gears exploding that caused the rivets getting banged up and other impact damage inside the case, as well as the hole in the case. Here is a picture where you can see the missing spider gear at one end, and a picture showing damage to the VSS shaft:
















Thanks again, Broke!


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## Broke (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Too bad someone doesn't take a similar interest in the 02A and on. Til then, I guess you are our resident expert anyway on them.

There are several folks on here who know a good a good bit about them... they're just busy and don't post as much as I do. They do other things, like sleep, and rebuild trans instead of sitting on the PC









_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Thanks again for answering my questions. How do you quote sections of my post in your post? It looks cool.

When you are replying, the quote button at the top of the window can be clicked over and over. Hit it, cut away everything else inside the quote tags you don't want to reply to, then answer that portion. Hit quote again, and repeat for the new portion of the quoted post. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Spider gear exploding: Yes!!!

Bummer








I thought it might be SMS from the cross shaft, myself. That was just a guess based on the shape of the damaged hole, but it seems the spiders failed. That would also explain the pulling to one side, it was trying to lock up one axle shaft... time to hunt for another trans


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (Broke)*

Thanks for all the help, Broke. Yeah, I'm on a hunt no for the right transmission. Maybe someone else can give me some advice on that search in the Seattle area, as well as which specific trans codes to look for in addition to DZQ. Don't want to pay $200 for shipping.
Strange it imitated a slipping clutch for two or three local trips until it let loose. you'd think once the first gear piece let loose it would have exploded then.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*

WTF? Look what I found on the web! Could this be the cause of my exploding 02j as it exploded during a "90 degree" right turn? 
VOLKSWAGEN
HUMMING NOISE WHEN TURNING AT LOW SPEEDS
A customer may state that a humming sound is coming from the front on turns in vehicles equipped with a 02J or 0A4 manual 5 speed transmission. The hum may bemore noticeable during slow speed turning maneuvers with the steering wheel almost to full travel. The hum diminishes with the steering wheel straight. Affected Vehicles: The hum may be generated by the differential spider gear contacting the one-piece thrust washer when under load. New transmission oil, P/N G 055 726A2, was incorporated in thetransmission production plant. Transmissions with the new oil installed begin with VINs indicated in Chart 2. If the vehicle exhibits this condition, drain and refill the transmission as follows.
Cure a manufacturing defect with new oil? Could this washer be underengineered like the rest of the 02j and depart the carrier when uder stress, lodging in the gears, and causing them to "explode." Wow. I'm 1/4 German, but this gives me the worst view of "German Engineering" yet. Why didn't they investigate and cure the cause of the hum? Just put new fluid in that lowers the noise of the "self machining" thrust washer? Perhaps a VW engineer might comment on the history of foibles in 02j engineering and why such band aid solutions were put in place rather than addressing the real cause--the underengineered hard parts of the tranny?


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*

More info on this manufacturing defect. This proves my specific vehicle was affected a 98 Beetle! This should have been corrected by the dealer notifying owners and having the trannys rebuilt or replaced to fix this defect as well as many others (SMS, etc.) that they obviously knew about well before the factory warranty expired! But no, VW headquarters decided to ignore and mask the poorly engineered trans problems, rather than do such an expensive recall.
Volkswagen 
Humming noise from front. Some 1998 Beetles, as well as 1999 Golfs and Jettas-all with W/02J transmissions-may produce a humming sound from the front of the car during low-speed turning maneuvers. 
According to Volkswagen, the noise is loudest when the steering is at or close to full-lock, usually goes away when the steering wheel is centered and is probably caused by the differential spider gear in the case making contact with the one-piece thrust washer under load. Draining out the old transmission fluid and refilling the box with a new-type fluid (Part No. G 052 171 A2) should solve the problem. After the fluid swap is completed, take to a parking lot and make a couple of figure-8s to confirm that the noise has been eliminated. 
This tidbit apparently from a May, 2006 multimodel mechanic's info page. Who knows when VW first knew of any 02j problems, but enquiring minds would like to know. Many here have wrote of the 02j's German engineering factory induced ills, from SMS, exploding spider gears, extremely fast synchro wear and resulting shifting problems,








etc.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*

Hey, here's a page with damning evidence of 02j problems like I had for all of you future and past victims with defective (ticking and eventually exploding time bomb) 02j trannys in your VWs:
http://209.85.173.132/search?q...gl=us


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*

I think, after some research, that the original broken part of the diff punctured the opposite side of the diff case of the trans. This contaminated my 850 mile or so "new" clutch disk, and led to the slipping clutch I noted in my original post. Then, only 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 short trips later, the catastrophic damage occured puncturing a hole in the other side of the case when the original freed metal object took out the spider gears. There was nothing I could have done to salvage it. Once the original hole was punctured on the inside, the tranny was toast. Anyone know if I can salvage a tranny oil soaked clutch disk (Redline fluid, no less)? Or should I just change it out when replacing the tranny with a new one?


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## Broke (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_The hum may be generated by the differential spider gear contacting the one-piece thrust washer when under load.

In the 020 trans, it is just a piece of plastic.








I thought I recognized that site you linked to, it is ran by Vince L., and it is nice to see he is buying bolt kits now rather than trying to make his own.















In case you are thinking of having them do work, or buying there, do some research on the owner before you do, and give it a second thought...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2406850

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I think, after some research, that the original broken part of the diff punctured the opposite side of the diff case of the trans.

Once you get it opened and cleaned and examined, you'll get a better idea of what happened, and in what sequence. For example, if you have 2 broken parts, and one of them shows a broken surface slightly stained, it was broken for a longer period of time than the one with clean metal on the broken surface.... and you know then which part failed first, and took out the other parts.
Knowing what you were doing when it happened helps too, so as the owner/driver you will be able to get a better idea of what happened, once it is all opened, stripped, and cleaned. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## HGB (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (trex2400)*

I haved been commenting on this for a while, its been posted many times over, but in short, no vehicle manufacturer is perfect, even Ferrari has recalls, (just not many) But this does not excuse the diff issue with these cars. The same design is used by many other car companies. The humming noise on the 02J and a fluid change correction is a bandaid fix to get you down the road till the warranty runs out. After which you are on your own. Some 02Js have the small spider gear design and some have the bigger gears. The small gears tend to let go, but more so with low gear oil levels. But these are the same gears in the 02As. The diff rivets were bad enough with the heads flying off at times. The pinion pin in the diff is secured by a roll pin, and only at one end. I was doing something to atleast use a bolt instead of the roll pin, threaded in the diff, like how Ford and others do. It has always bugged me how a Honda, even Dodge Caravan, etc trans was built, they use diff bolts, like how peloquin now makes his diffs, but they still use a roll pin, but the roll pin goes all the way in the diff housing unlike the VW set up going part way of the diff housing and the diff pinion pin. I had an 02M trans apart and an Acura RSX trans apart, just comparing the 2 you can see the + and - on each one, but the VW with the roll pin and diff rivets in 2008?, 6 speed trans, is backwards. And putting these in a GTI which should be driven like a man makes no sense. Most 020 trans use those snap rings at both ends to secure the diff pin, they should have atleast done this with the 02As/02Js/02Ms if they are going with the wide open diff and thread the diff to accept diff bolts. The dealer wont see alot of these cases as only someone who has money to spend or trying to get warranty will walk in. And they often times diag the car and tell them that it was their fault, (spirited driving) why the trans broke with the big hole in it. meanwhile they sell the bolt kits for the diffs at arm and leg prices (the same company that made the rivets, I think Boesner) Lets say the factory diff fails, and the bellhousing is ok the cost of it alone just makes sense to just purchase a LSD instead, which has lifetime warranty, and eliminating the diff issues with better grip. The other issues are the 02J gears being stronger, to me a myth, especially the 1st gear lock out thing happening all over (fine tooth synchro teeth on the 1st/2nd gear synchro hub) but thats another story and has been posted before.


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (HGB)*

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:21 AM 1-7-2009_


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

blown diff. I have seen a couple of 02a trannys that had sms cause the design of how the pin is retain is very poor. and sometinmes the pin breaks too


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (Broke)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Broke* »_
In the 020 trans, it is just a piece of plastic.
I thought I recognized that site you linked to, it is ran by Vince L., and it is nice to see he is buying bolt kits now rather than trying to make his own.















In case you are thinking of having them do work, or buying there, do some research on the owner before you do, and give it a second thought...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2406850

Once you get it opened and cleaned and examined, you'll get a better idea of what happened, and in what sequence. For example, if you have 2 broken parts, and one of them shows a broken surface slightly stained, it was broken for a longer period of time than the one with clean metal on the broken surface.... and you know then which part failed first, and took out the other parts.
Knowing what you were doing when it happened helps too, so as the owner/driver you will be able to get a better idea of what happened, once it is all opened, stripped, and cleaned. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Thanks Broke, for the expert info again. As it exploded in the middle of a turn, I think that points to the "humming" defect gone much worse. Maybe those VW engineers changed from plastic to metal on the 02js. Hard to figure how contact with a plastic washer would cause a hum. When I get it out I'll be able to tell more per your advice. Not gonna do it until I source a replacement, though. At this point I'm starting to wonder if the car is worth the expense, or to go with a whole new Beetle. If so, anyone know which of the older New Beetle's tranny's aren't defective and are "bulletproof". Are some of the New Beetle automatic tranny's relatively problem free? I imagine they don't "expectorate parts" like 02js when they fail, and maybe VW didn't plan defects into them to limit their lives/increase service department revenue like they obviously did with the 02js.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (HGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HGB* »_I haved been commenting on this for a while, its been posted many times over, but in short, no vehicle manufacturer is perfect, even Ferrari has recalls, (just not many) But this does not excuse the diff issue with these cars. The same design is used by many other car companies. The humming noise on the 02J and a fluid change correction is a bandaid fix to get you down the road till the warranty runs out. After which you are on your own. Some 02Js have the small spider gear design and some have the bigger gears. The small gears tend to let go, but more so with low gear oil levels. But these are the same gears in the 02As. The diff rivets were bad enough with the heads flying off at times. The pinion pin in the diff is secured by a roll pin, and only at one end. I was doing something to atleast use a bolt instead of the roll pin, threaded in the diff, like how Ford and others do. It has always bugged me how a Honda, even Dodge Caravan, etc trans was built, they use diff bolts, like how peloquin now makes his diffs, but they still use a roll pin, but the roll pin goes all the way in the diff housing unlike the VW set up going part way of the diff housing and the diff pinion pin. I had an 02M trans apart and an Acura RSX trans apart, just comparing the 2 you can see the + and - on each one, but the VW with the roll pin and diff rivets in 2008?, 6 speed trans, is backwards. And putting these in a GTI which should be driven like a man makes no sense. Most 020 trans use those snap rings at both ends to secure the diff pin, they should have atleast done this with the 02As/02Js/02Ms if they are going with the wide open diff and thread the diff to accept diff bolts. The dealer wont see alot of these cases as only someone who has money to spend or trying to get warranty will walk in. And they often times diag the car and tell them that it was their fault, (spirited driving) why the trans broke with the big hole in it. meanwhile they sell the bolt kits for the diffs at arm and leg prices (the same company that made the rivets, I think Boesner) Lets say the factory diff fails, and the bellhousing is ok the cost of it alone just makes sense to just purchase a LSD instead, which has lifetime warranty, and eliminating the diff issues with better grip. The other issues are the 02J gears being stronger, to me a myth, especially the 1st gear lock out thing happening all over (fine tooth synchro teeth on the 1st/2nd gear synchro hub) but thats another story and has been posted before. 

Thanks, HGB. Your post confirmed my suspicions about a bandaid fix to get it past the warranty before the inevitable explosion. You knowledge of the later transmissions complement's Broke's expertise on the 020's well. VW still using this proven faulty design in 2008? Why haven't they been sued? Does German law protect them from liability for defective products? Yeah, I've seen the cross shaft securing bolt fist hand during my GM 10 bolt Tahoe diff/rear axle rebuild. LOL. They have a problem as well, but it is with getting the bolt out without breaking it (some break in service but they stay in place performing their retaining duty), not coming out and destroying the whole diff. Know where I can get an LSD for a reasonable price? Getting a lightly used junkyard pull and installing one may be an option.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Exploding 02J Transmission--Anyone Know What Might Have Caused This? (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_I think it goes without saying that the engineering behind the trans is fantastic, the bean counters are what killed it. Just looking at a VW manual trans is almost like looking at a work of art. I'd be willing to bet that the early design concepts of the 02A/J transmissions were significantly more robust, but the bean counters said "ok, how can we make this cheaper?"
I would also put money that the original poster's Beetle was probably abused in a previous ownership for the spider gears to fail that way. Even more so if the fluid looked like "chocolate milk". Or perhaps water got in the trans- that would have easily killed it.
We can all agree that the trans could have been built better, but for what it is, it serves it's purpose quite well. In my time working for VW I did not see any major failures on 02J transmissions like that unless it was in fact abused. I have not seen any rivet failures on the 02A/J series transmissions, either, but that doesn't mean I would trust them.








Brendan

Thanks Lord_Verminaard, you may be right. But although a VW is no Space Shuttle, competent/original engineers should have had a say in these lower cost re-engineering efforts. Because they refused to stand up and say, "do that to my design and I will resign", or simply, "no", means that, like two Space Shuttles, they blow up or disintegrate. HGB has the answer above why you don't see many of these--at least they engineered them (and serviced them as in the "humming" TSB) to last beyond the warranty before they exploded, for VW's bottom line sake. Abused? LOL. Read HGB's post. That is what a service tech would say to a customer. Certainly not VWs fault. but the feeble efforts the "re-engineer" these trannys so more of them last beyond the warranty like in the bigger spider gear and roll pin cases indicates otherwise. Most people in the know believe these are VW engineering mistakes that will not hold up to daily normal driving, much less agressive or performance driving. The 140 MPH speedometer in my Beetle would seem to indicate it was a perfomance/Autobahn engineered car. However, it was likely just a marketing ploy to sell more VWs, as these cars should have been fitted with 70 MPH max speedos as their bad engineering makes going any faster a danger to the driver from exploding tranny parts.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (austin neuschafer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *austin neuschafer* »_blown diff. I have seen a couple of 02a trannys that had sms cause the design of how the pin is retain is very poor. and sometinmes the pin breaks too

Thanks, Austin, for the info. Too bad VW won't address these issues even today, as HGB notes. The only way as demonstrated multiple times on this board to get a good VW car is to upgrade/re-engineer it yourself. Hopefully all here have bought used and upgraded. No one should buy a new VW until they have fixed these problems as well as made amends to the victims of their "engineered to explode" cars.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*"Death Shield" to Further Limit VW Liability for Their Exploding Tranny Design?*









Hmmm...(as in humming like a VW spider gear under too much stress from underdesign), I wonder if this is a shield VW put on the firewall to keep their as designed exploding tranny parts from penetrating into the passenger cabin so they wouldn't get sued for injuries therefrom? After all, once the warranty expires and the tranny explodes you're screwed, "up the creek" without a paddle as VW obviously intended by the mere existance of this "costly" shield on the car. But that wouldn't shield VW from lawsuits from those injured by tranny parts that projected themselves through the firewall even after warranty expiration. Is this such a shield, and because of its existence, the smoking gun proof that VW knew it built exploding trannys?


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## sheimbach (Mar 12, 2006)

no its the sway bar


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (sheimbach)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sheimbach* »_no its the sway bar

I probably should have checked it out first hand before posting as the car is still jacked up, but I thought the picture was pretty clear. Doubt its the sway bar, but as we have a foot of snow now I'm not inclined to crawl under the car to find out. Thanks for the info.


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (trex2400)*

When was the last time the transmission fluid was changed? I'm always weary of used cars and their drive trains... its not so bad when you have the smarts to rebuild any transmission on your own for minimal cost.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*

I changed the fluid 850 miles ago when I replaced the clutch. When I changed the fluid with the best Redline fluid recommended by this board's experts, I installed an ECS magnetic drain plug just to make sure that any free metal particles were caught. Used the exact right amount, as well. If I had known just how flaky these trannys were I would have at least upgraded the diff, but hindsight and related research is 20/20.


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:21 AM 1-7-2009_


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: "Death Shield" to Further Limit VW Liability for Their Exploding Tranny Design? (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_








Hmmm...(as in humming like a VW spider gear under too much stress from underdesign), I wonder if this is a shield VW put on the firewall to keep their as designed exploding tranny parts from penetrating into the passenger cabin so they wouldn't get sued for injuries therefrom? After all, once the warranty expires and the tranny explodes you're screwed, "up the creek" without a paddle as VW obviously intended by the mere existance of this "costly" shield on the car. But that wouldn't shield VW from lawsuits from those injured by tranny parts that projected themselves through the firewall even after warranty expiration. Is this such a shield, and because of its existence, the smoking gun proof that VW knew it built exploding trannys? 

that is a grease and oil shield, to keep any leaking oil from the trans and grease from the cv's from getting thrown onto hte exhaust, and possibly to any water that hte cv shafts might get onto them from hitting the exhaust manifold and making foul odors for some peoples noses. 

sorry I didn't have timeto read thru all the above stuff at the begining


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## sheimbach (Mar 12, 2006)

am i the only one that realizes that the red arrow points to the front sway bar


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_

Agreed. He said the old fluid looked like chocolate milk- that aint good. I can almost guarantee that the car was abused by a previous owner. 02J's don't just explode like that under normal service. Ever. 
But, he seems to already have figured it out that VW is "out to get him" and they engineer specific failure intervals just to "screw the customer". Looks like it's time to sell the VW and buy a nice used Camry.








Brendan

Wrong. You know yourself that VW doesn't have any maintenance interval on the tranny fluid. This is yet another designed in time bomb. I changed it per many on this board's recommendations. Who knows, maybe VW knows something we don't about their cars (which would be a new thing)--maybe the old fluid was the only thing "holding together" the underengineered parts in the tranny. Maybe the new fluid with renewed lube properties loosened something up that was "glued in place" by the VW recommended lifetime use, no change, factory fluid? The abuse argument is used by those to cover their rebuilding errors and VWs design errors as HGB stated. 02Js don't explode under normal use? Read the thread and follow the links and you will find irrefutable evidence to the contrary. People don't bring these into the dealer because the warranty just expired a few thousand miles ago and it would cost more than the car is worth to fix. So they part it out or fix it themselves or at a shop with more reasonable rates. Wrong. VW made many of these errors to save a few cents per car. It's not about screwing customers, it's about the bottom line. They hope that some of these exploding tranny victims will buy a VW again, or that the original owner trades it in before it explodes for a new one so the can unload it with no warranty on the used car lot to the hapless victim of the explosion anyone who really knows these cars knows will come soon after original warranty expiration. You work in a VW service department? Say it isn't so! People are paying $100 an hour for people who know less about the inner workings of their VW than I do, a very occasional DIY mechanic who has just scratched the surface of the vast plethora of VW design flaws? People, save your money. Go to any shop besides a VW dealer's. They won't be so biased, and will almost assuredly know more and tell you more about the real skinny on VWs than the "VW certifiable" techs can/will.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: "Death Shield" to Further Limit VW Liability for Th ... (austin neuschafer)*

Thanks Austin. I trust your opinion. Sure ain't a sway bar. Even though what you say is likely true, the noted shield could also be performing another type of shielding as well. Only VW's unethical engineering department knows for sure all the whys and wherefors and they certainly won't tell us the whole truth. I'm glad this whole board grew up out of the fact people like me loved VWs styling and economy and wanted to figure out how to make these cars road and race worthy.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (sheimbach)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sheimbach* »_am i the only one that realizes that the red arrow points to the front sway bar

Yep, because it ain't true. the sway bar is well below this and runs along the subframe, I believe, plus its round and not obviously flat like the "oil/water/death/exploding gear" shield in the picture.


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

oops, just notice hte dogbone and that this was a a4 not a a a2 chassis, so that isn't the shield I was thinking, to many hours in the office today. and not enough sleep from the busy weekend


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## sheimbach (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_
Yep, because it ain't true. the sway bar is well below this and runs along the subframe, I believe, plus its round and not obviously flat like the "oil/water/death/exploding gear" shield in the picture.









it looks round to me go have a look under your car and follow the bar to either side and you will see that in connects to the sway bar links making it a sway bar


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:22 AM 1-7-2009_


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_I changed the fluid 850 miles ago when I replaced the clutch. When I changed the fluid with the best Redline fluid recommended by this board's experts, I installed an ECS magnetic drain plug just to make sure that any free metal particles were caught. Used the exact right amount, as well. If I had known just how flaky these trannys were I would have at least upgraded the diff, but hindsight and related research is 20/20. 

Any advice you get from this boards 'experts', or any free forum for that matter should be taken with a grain of salt. Nearly everything here is anecdotal at best, and has little to no empirical evidence or sound engineering practices applied to support responses.
Your transmission failed in a way that is relatively rare, and without knowing the history of the transmission's life, there is no way to know if yours was defective or if it was misused.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_
Any advice you get from this boards 'experts', or any free forum for that matter should be taken with a grain of salt. Nearly everything here is anecdotal at best, and has little to no empirical evidence or sound engineering practices applied to support responses.
Your transmission failed in a way that is relatively rare, and without knowing the history of the transmission's life, there is no way to know if yours was defective or if it was misused.

Going with this.....
I read through this all, and what I get out of it, is that the people who work with VW's transmissions on a near daily basis have seen this a lot. Understood. Also, just searching on-line for broke VW transmission will get you hundreds of people complaining about it. This makes it sound like a very serious issue, but then again, they sell millions of cars with this trans in it all over the world. With regular fluid changes the older weaker transmissions from the Rabbit and Scirocco, and Jettas from the 70s-80s last forever. I agree it may be weak in comparison to how it could or should (subjective) be. There are literally millions of VWs on the road with this same transmission, as well as the older ones that have much greater mileage on them than yours did that are still holding up. By your explanation of 'chocolate milk,' I am going to venture and say that the trans was already on it's way out. Perhaps the new clutch's extra grip, or the new fluids detergent content, or just plain bad timing caused this failure. I can't say. Maybe that bad clutch you just replaced was perfectly fine, and it was a differential issue. As far as no oil change interval, 100k is the max for any fluid in a car. BMW says the same for their auto transmissions, but any dealership will tell you that you need to change it at 100k regardless of the owner's manual "lifetime" rating. I hate to say it, and don't mean any insults by saying, but you seem to sound like the typical 'old man' view. That you have been around and seen this before, and that the engineers don't know anything.....etc. Chalk it up to even more experience behind you. If you plan on buying a very well used car, learn about them first, and check them out thoroughly. If you find 'chocolate milk' in the transmission, perhaps pass, or get a new one ready. I can guarantee that fluid was bad before you got the car. 
I hope that reads well, it was pretty much a stream of thoughts out of my head. Take it as you will, but I'm just trying to say that however 'common' you and some who deal with these parts feel this issue is, it really isn't like every car on the road is just waiting to explode the differential. They work perfectly fine for many, and let down a few.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (sheimbach)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sheimbach* »_
it looks round to me go have a look under your car and follow the bar to either side and you will see that in connects to the sway bar links making it a sway bar

OK, I'll do so when the 2 ft of snow melts, in three to seven days.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_
Any advice you get from this boards 'experts', or any free forum for that matter should be taken with a grain of salt. Nearly everything here is anecdotal at best, and has little to no empirical evidence or sound engineering practices applied to support responses.
Your transmission failed in a way that is relatively rare, and without knowing the history of the transmission's life, there is no way to know if yours was defective or if it was misused.

True, hence I look at several poster's comment or studies before I use their opinion. Did so with the Redline fluid.
Since fewer sound engineering practices have made their way into these transmissions and many here are doing much more to fix those design flaws than VW Engineering is, I will trust those experts here over proven to be bad VW transmission experts that often bandaid or ignore a problem, unless it costs them in in warranty repairs, in case they will bandaid it to ensure more cars are out of warrantee until they fail.
This can't be relatively rare when transmission shops say it is the most common reason they rebuild these transmissions, something the local VW service shop likely doesn't even do. They just order a rebuilt or new tranny from the VW distributor and sent the "core" back, so they would be clueless as to the exact nature of the internal failure of the tranny, probably giving the customer a highly technical reason for them having to outlaw thousands for a new tranny like "it just broke," or "you must have abused it, as we never have seen or heard of a failed VW tranny like this before" as you are essentially stating in your post while seeing undeniable evidence in this thread and others you read here that these trannys have a host of VW designed in weaknesses for the grandma driver, much less the "street racer."


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*

Thanks, well taken. True, the fluid was as it was when I bought it as I didn't get to drive it a whole lot before the clutch gave out. It was the clutch combined with a bad clutch slave cylinder that were the cause. When I took the clutch out I couldn't believe all of the dust from the worn clutch in there. clutch disk was worn down to the rivets. True, fixing one thing may have overstressed already weakened parts, and a new part of the tranny became the weak point--the most common weak point of all, the diff. Just because there are so many VWs on the road says little. How much tranny work the higher mile VWs on the road have had can't be determined from looking at them driving down the road. From what I understand, shops that rebuild VW trannys have no shortage of work. In fact, the design mistakes of VW have grown a whole cottage industry around fixing these transmissions. At least three companies made their own bolt kits to fix the rivet issue. You wouldn't find such competition in a small market for such items. Then there are the LSDs, which solve the whole VW diff design error problem by throwing it out and totally replacing it. I'm no VW expert, but I can tell when a professed VW expert (not you) is sticking their head in the sand on an issue that has been covered many times on this board and elsewhere.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

I'm glad to see that you have come a little ways in your reasoning. The first few posts you made on the matter seemed to just be blaming VW for a car with over 130k miles for breaking. I do know that these are a weaker design than some other versions from the same and other companies, I'm not saying they are void of issues. I personally have owned 4 VWs with manual transmissions with over 120k miles. Two were Rabbits that the odometers read over 250k when they broke before I purchased them. I beat the living crap out of my cars (responsibly, with warm-up and cool-down). Only issue is clutches for me so far. 
My 01 had the same noise at low speeds early on. Dealer showed me the TSB, but since my car didn't fit in the VIN range for it, they would have charged me for the fluid change. I did it with Redline MT90 synthetic, and the noise went away. Bandaid? Maybe. Fix the issue? Yes.
I think the greater question than how to 'bulletproof' the trans would be, 'what needs saved from itself?'
We have identified that the rivets can come out; Bolt kit.
We know the spider gears need fixed on their shaft; Circlips.
We know the spider gears themselves can be weak; This could be debated for a fix. Yes a LSD would cure it, but it's over $800 for just the unit. I think, an otherwise stock 2.0 would never break these gears unless fluid was neglected, or severe shock was being put on them frequently. I guarantee that the grip your tires have on the road would give before enough force could be applied to just destroy a spider gear. It's not an all out drag car with big slicks up front. I think that getting a used one rebuilt with the addition of a bolt kit, and circlips would be more than sufficient to last longer than the rest of the car. It's a 98 Beetle, with 115 horsepower (maybe, depending on wear). Keep the maintenance up on the new one and watch the car rot around your shiny new trans over the next 10 years. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
edited for readability.
_Modified by thetwodubheads at 12:48 AM 12-25-2008_

_Modified by thetwodubheads at 12:49 AM 12-25-2008_


_Modified by thetwodubheads at 12:50 AM 12-25-2008_


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*

Also....
As far as removing the trans. Next time, pull both axle flanges out. It'll slip right out. You probably were hitting the one you left in on something. The driver's side hits the subframe, and the passenger's side catches on the flywheel. I pull both, it's out and in, in a couple minutes each. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BDBD (Aug 23, 2006)

I have an 01 Golf TDI with SMS (also lots of snow and a not-yet clean garage). The car rocked back and forth 1 foot and bled tranny oil.
Thanks to broke and vince I know what to look for. I'm glad I never got the escort sold! It's particularly interesting that the failure was preceeded by humming in turns... a change of note and intensity in all speed slight right turns...
related?
I was going to look for wheel bearing issues while at it.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thetwodubheads* »_I'm glad to see that you have come a little ways in your reasoning. The first few posts you made on the matter seemed to just be blaming VW for a car with over 130k miles for breaking. I do know that these are a weaker design than some other versions from the same and other companies, I'm not saying they are void of issues. I personally have owned 4 VWs with manual transmissions with over 120k miles. Two were Rabbits that the odometers read over 250k when they broke before I purchased them. I beat the living crap out of my cars (responsibly, with warm-up and cool-down). Only issue is clutches for me so far. 
My 01 had the same noise at low speeds early on. Dealer showed me the TSB, but since my car didn't fit in the VIN range for it, they would have charged me for the fluid change. I did it with Redline MT90 synthetic, and the noise went away. Bandaid? Maybe. Fix the issue? Yes.
I think the greater question than how to 'bulletproof' the trans would be, 'what needs saved from itself?'
We have identified that the rivets can come out; Bolt kit.
We know the spider gears need fixed on their shaft; Circlips.
We know the spider gears themselves can be weak; This could be debated for a fix. Yes a LSD would cure it, but it's over $800 for just the unit. I think, an otherwise stock 2.0 would never break these gears unless fluid was neglected, or severe shock was being put on them frequently. I guarantee that the grip your tires have on the road would give before enough force could be applied to just destroy a spider gear. It's not an all out drag car with big slicks up front. I think that getting a used one rebuilt with the addition of a bolt kit, and circlips would be more than sufficient to last longer than the rest of the car. It's a 98 Beetle, with 115 horsepower (maybe, depending on wear). Keep the maintenance up on the new one and watch the car rot around your shiny new trans over the next 10 years. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
edited for readability.
_Modified by thetwodubheads at 12:48 AM 12-25-2008_

_Modified by thetwodubheads at 12:49 AM 12-25-2008_

_Modified by thetwodubheads at 12:50 AM 12-25-2008_


Thanks, thetwodubheads. There is the issue of your Rabbits weighing less than the Beetle. VW put the same tranny in both, and the tranny may have been adequate for a Rabbit, but I'm not the first one to state they were underengineered for the higher weight cars VW decided to put them in to save money on re-engineering a "new" tranny to take the higher stresses inherent in the heavier cars.
I'd keep an eye on that 01 unless it is a lighter model. If it is a lighter model (Golfs were in the TSB as well, I believe), the fact that this humming occurs in lighter models is evidence the diff is overstressed in them as well. Fluid fix the problem? NO. It made it so you couldn't hear it, but the same stress is on the underengineered spider gears which may handle it or not. Maybe the thrust washer will not depart and lodge itself between gears because of this band aid fix, or not.
Thanks for reiterating the weaknesses and listing the fixes. Yeah, I will probably get a rebuilt tranny with at least those fixes and let the car rot around it, LOL. Need to rob a armored car first, however, for the money to do it. I guess the rest of the car is almost worth the money to put such a tranny in it.
I never spun the tires in this car. Can't be sure the previous owner didn't, but it survived until I got it. These spider gears are a known issue. Cast ones are known to fail, as well as the smaller, earlier ones. How the car was driven is not the issue. Spider gears not up to the minimal tasks is. They hum from extreme stress from going slowly around a corner? Then what part of driving are they fit for? Non-highway straight ahead driving after you are up to speed? It seems then that these underengineered spider gears would be under the least stress other than their seemingly desired state--in a wrecking yard. Thanks again.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thetwodubheads* »_Also....
As far as removing the trans. Next time, pull both axle flanges out. It'll slip right out. You probably were hitting the one you left in on something. The driver's side hits the subframe, and the passenger's side catches on the flywheel. I pull both, it's out and in, in a couple minutes each. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Thanks. I'l try that instead of dropping the subframe. Only took off the passenger side flange last time. That was all that most said was needed. I suppose I need that two foot long extension to get the driver's side off.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (BDBD)*

Wow, thanks BDBD. Even the lighter Golf's cannot withstand the weaknesses in these trannys? That is some new info I am grateful for and others here would like to know. I'm lucky as well to have another car or I'd have to be right on spending the money to fix the VW as VW intended. 
Interesting about the hum as well. Maybe they are related in some way, as in particles of metal getting in between the spider gears and thrust washers/diff carrier. Of course, in VW's great engineering "minds" a different fluid fixed the "problem." And the problem, in their minds, was that the customer could hear the self machining going on--the problem wasn't obviously the self machining itself. That would cost real money to re-engineer and fix. That's why VW left it to the aftermarket to fix their "mistakes" instead of fixing them themselves. Wanta see a crook without going to a prison? Ask to tour VW's transmission engineering department!


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

I don't know if the GTIs with the 1.8t got a better trans or not, but I have done burnouts, drag launches with sticky tires, slammed gears drag racing and around twisty roads, and ran my car at high speeds. I know if the trans explodes I'll be out a grand or so, but I think proper fluid, letting the thing warm up, and sooner than recommended changes of fluid (I do 60k) are simple steps to help keep these things on the road. I know a rivet can let go at any time, but I don't let that keep me from enjoying the car. 
I hope you don't let this experience sour your taste for a nice highway cruiser. This platform of VW is one of my favorites, it is comfortable, quiet, handles decently, and for the most part very reliable (window regulators don't count). Enjoy it, it was built for that.


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:20 AM 1-7-2009_


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thetwodubheads* »_I don't know if the GTIs with the 1.8t got a better trans or not, but I have done burnouts, drag launches with sticky tires, slammed gears drag racing and around twisty roads, and ran my car at high speeds. I know if the trans explodes I'll be out a grand or so, but I think proper fluid, letting the thing warm up, and sooner than recommended changes of fluid (I do 60k) are simple steps to help keep these things on the road. I know a rivet can let go at any time, but I don't let that keep me from enjoying the car. 
I hope you don't let this experience sour your taste for a nice highway cruiser. This platform of VW is one of my favorites, it is comfortable, quiet, handles decently, and for the most part very reliable (window regulators don't count). Enjoy it, it was built for that.









Thanks for the info, thetwodubheads. You may be right about it having a better trans. But I think the GTI is lighter than the Beetle, and maybe weight carried is the biggest stress on a diff, not burnouts, etc. My Tahoe's diff went out (I believe) because I towed at/over maximum and had no way to know diff fluid temp. When I rebuilt it I put in a fluid temp gauge so I could make sure I didn't heat it up too much while towing.
The curb weights for the cars these troubled trannys were used in were surprisingly close:
2000 Curb Weights
Golf 2864 
GTI 2765
Jetta 2884 
New Beetle 2825 
So, it would appear weight of the car is not much of a factor. I had a full passenger load when my diff started to go south (as evidenced by "clutch slipping," and it occurred when accelerating from a stop. It seems these trannys have enough work just moving the curb weight of the car down the road. The problems may come when you try to carry more than one or two people in the car, which goes over the "design weight load" of the transmission. I would guess SMS accelerates more with each LB added to the cars. Makes sense. The 98 Beetle supposedly had a payload of 920 LBs. I know I never loaded it that much. Later Beetles lowered payload to 772 LBs, for what reason we can only guess. So maybe 1 driver 02Js are essentially safe from SMS as they are within the real design weight for the tranny, which is likely curb weight plus 150 LBs, or about 3000 LBs total. Carrying a passenger or cargo beyond one light grocery bag could cause your tranny to explode, eventually.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_
Seriously, the drivel has got to stop. I wasn't going to post anything else but you clearly don't know what you are talking about and you are making a lot of blatant false assumptions about VW's engineering and technical aspects of the 02J transmission, and I really don't want someone else reading this and taking it as fact.
First of all, the 02J transmission that is in pretty much all A4 platform 5-speed cars, IS NOT the same transmission that suffered the "Self Machining Syndrome" in the Rabbit. That is an 020 transmission, and they are significantly weaker than the 02J. Some will last hundreds of thousands of miles without issue under normal driving conditions. Stress the transmission in any way, and you are asking for a failure. Proper considerations must be met. It's the way things go.
The 02J is capable of withstanding 300, even 400 hp in racing conditions without further modification, if proper care is taken by reducing the shock load on the gears (by not dumping the clutch at high rpm, and by "pre-loading" the transmission on launch, etc...) I have personally witnessed an 02J car with a turbo VR6 running near 600 hp through that transmission, it lasted two hard race seasons before finally tossing 3rd gear. The guy also drove the car to work on many occasions.
On that note, a lowly Beetle with 115 hp can also destroy an 02J by neglect and abuse. Yes, the spiders are weak, but they don't just explode under the normal stress of a 115 hp engine. Clutch dumps, improper downshifting, general "jackassery" WILL stress the weakest part, which is the spiders. One-wheel burnouts especially, will generate a lot of heat on the spider gears, which make them brittle and prone to cracking. Around here, that is a favorite past-time of any young kid in their sport compact. That WILL destroy or severely weaken the spiders. ALL 02J's are built the same, weather it is the TDI, the 2.0, 1.8t, or the VR6. That is a wide range of hp and torque, from 90 with the TDI to 180 with the 1.8t.
In my 2 years with VW as a parts guy, I do not remember seeing even ONE replacement 02J transmission. I did see plenty of automatics though. This was a high-volume dealership, so maybe 5000 cars in my two years there? Sure, they didn't all have 02J's, but a lot of them did. If this was a "common" problem like you so claim that it is, we would have been replacing them left and right. It simply didnt happen. This was 4 years ago and even then we had cars with over 250,000 miles on them already.
Fact of the matter is, in one way or another, your transmission was abused, plain and simple. Despite your efforts to take good car of your car, (which I highly respect since most people don't care anymore) the transmission was already dead when you got it. Unfortunate that it happened in your possession, and even more so after you already did so much work on it.
My advice to you is to find a good used transmission, have it split and inspected internally- if everything is good, clean it up, install it with your new clutch and put good fluid in it, and drive it down the road, worry-free.
Brendan

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:24 AM 12-26-2008_


Drivel? I respect your opinion, but the history of these trannys on the web is well documented, with only some links here. Thanks for correcting the Rabbit error. I just recently learned they were used on Jettas Golf/GTIs and Beetles, per one parts website. True, the previous owner may have abused it, making it more of a ticking time bomb than others. Something doesn't jibe about your story of this tranny survivng high horsepower race applications and not being able to withstand a hard launch or a spinning tire in daily driving. It seems as if people on this board are either modding their 02js or are swapping it out completely. Maybe you would have seen more of these bad trannys if you had been at the dealership the last four years. After all, my "abused" transmission lasted ten years and 130K before exploding. If others were similarly defective and had a tire spin once or twice, you would expect such failures to spike around now, not four years ago. It seems hard to believe someone would put one of these trannys on the race track unaltered as the info on their weaknesses is so readily available, I doubt anyone would have ordered a new tranny from the dealer anyway, as they typically charge multiples of what other sources charge. So the best source of info is the "aftermarket" rebuilders themselves, some of which info I posted here. i wouldn't expect VW to post a similar page stating all of the weak points of their manual transmissions and what options can be purchased to solve them, as that would discourage people from buying their new cars, as they still have some of the same problems, quite inexplicably. You'd think VW would care about customer feedback about their vehicles, even after the warranty expires. But alas, when changing the tranny fluid so the customer doesn't hear the problem is the solution for "customer satisfaction," I wouldn't expect them to care. But, i guess they could have just told the customer to "get over it" (the noise) and sent them away without the fluid change. But something tells me customer satisfaction wasn't the driver in this--getting the tranny past the warranty expiration before telling the customer where to go was.


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_
True, hence I look at several poster's comment or studies before I use their opinion. Did so with the Redline fluid.
This can't be relatively rare when transmission shops say it is the most common reason they rebuild these transmissions, something the local VW service shop likely doesn't even do. They just order a rebuilt or new tranny from the VW distributor and sent the "core" back, so they would be clueless as to the exact nature of the internal failure of the tranny, probably giving the customer a highly technical reason for them having to outlaw thousands for a new tranny like "it just broke," or "you must have abused it, as we never have seen or heard of a failed VW tranny like this before" as you are essentially stating in your post while seeing undeniable evidence in this thread and others you read here that these trannys have a host of VW designed in weaknesses for the grandma driver, much less the "street racer."

This failure can be the most common failure and still be relatively rare. Your trans failed at 130k miles with an unknown history and what sounds like very old fluid. I would consider that very good and evidence that the design is sound. And I'm not sure why you keep saying this was designed to get people just past the warranty and then fail. 130k miles is way beyond any warranty offered by any car manufacturer.
Also, I don't see undeniable evidence to anything that you claim. Designed in weakness? Care to quantify that with some real analysis?


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_
This failure can be the most common failure and still be relatively rare. Your trans failed at 130k miles with an unknown history and what sounds like very old fluid. I would consider that very good and evidence that the design is sound. And I'm not sure why you keep saying this was designed to get people just past the warranty and then fail. 130k miles is way beyond any warranty offered by any car manufacturer.
Also, I don't see undeniable evidence to anything that you claim. Designed in weakness? Care to quantify that with some real analysis?

I guess we will never know just how common such failures are unless all rebuilders and parts vendors roll up their data for us, but I haven't heard of any such businesses hurting for business. 30K beyond a 100K warranty? Not so many miles beyond, in my belief. If parts do fail, it would seem that the design would allow them to fail without exploding. No other car parts besides coolant hoses fail by exploding. I've replaced many parts in cars over the years and haven't had a part fail in such a complete and dangerous way, with parts projecting through a seemingly stout cast aluminum case. Go to the link earlier I posted from a rebuild shop and it will walk you through the analysis of each design weakness. Because you don't apparently want this problem to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it is a common problem. The many vendors competing to sell bolt kits for the diffs is proof enough. These kits are an extreme PITA for the DIYer to install, yet enough are sold to keep several companies in the market. I think I'll write to VW and ask for some real data and history for you, since you want an authoritative answer. Don't hold your breath for their answer, however. I posted pics of the damage as well as links and others posted stating they had the same or a similar problem. However, getting your kind to admit the obvious is difficult to say the least. If I had pictures of the moon landing being shot on set and sworn statements from all of the Apollo astronauts it was faked you would likely to be the kind to insist they actually landed on the moon still. Not saying it was faked at all, just using such a scenario as an example. To some who don't want to see the obvious, no amount of proof is proof enough. Seen too many people like that. It's far too common, I believe, and shows we haven't evolved as far as we think we have from the ape man. 


_Modified by trex2400 at 7:18 PM 12-28-2008_


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_
I guess we will never know just how common such failures are unless all rebuilders and parts vendors roll up their data for us, but I haven't heard of any such businesses hurting for business. 30K beyond a 100K warranty? Not so many miles beyond, in my belief. If parts do fail, it would seem that the design would allow them to fail without exploding. No other car parts besides coolant hoses fail by exploding. I've replaced many parts in cars over the years and haven't had a part fail in such a complete and dangerous way, with parts projecting through a seemingly stout cast aluminum case. Go to the link earlier I posted from a rebuild shop and it will walk you through the analysis of each design weakness. Because you don't apparently want this problem to exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it is a common problem. The many vendors competing to sell bolt kits for the diffs is proof enough. These kits are an extreme PITA for the DIYer to install, yet enough are sold to keep several companies in the market. I think I'll write to VW and ask for some real data and history for you, since you want an authoritative answer. Don't hold your breath for their answer, however. I posted pics of the damage as well as links and others posted stating they had the same or a similar problem. However, getting your kind to admit the obvious is difficult to say the least. If I had pictures of the moon landing being shot on set and sworn statements from all of the Apollo astronauts it was faked you would likely to be the kind to insist they actually landed on the moon still. Not saying it was faked at all, just using such a scenario as an example. To some who don't want to see the obvious, no amount of proof is proof enough. Seen too many people like that. It's far too common, I believe, and shows we haven't evolved as far as we think we have from the ape man. 

_Modified by trex2400 at 7:18 PM 12-28-2008_

I was hoping you'd shed some light on the issue, instead of just complaining about how it should be expected that a 130k mile transmission operate flawlessly until the end of time. 
I am an engineer by day and do failure analysis as part of my work (not for VW though) and as a hobby I rebuild transmissions, most of which have been 02As. While there could be improvements made (as is with any design in existence) there would be very little overall benefit to any of the end users. I've been parusing junkyards for the last decade, specifically for VWs in the midwest and california/nevada and have only come across exploded transmissions a handful of times. Of course the problem is well documented here... what else are users going to post about?... perfectly fine transmissions?
Bolt kits are sold because there isn't any alternative if you want to change the ring gear or change the differential. And as far as I know there are only two vendors (peloquin and apr).. of which peloquin now only makes the newer style kit for their LSD, which doesn't work with anything else.
As far as catastrophic failures go, this is minor. If this is the worst you've seen you haven't spent much time around cars.
I've found in both my job, my car club, and my own cars, the problem is almost always the end user. Ever heard the saying "make it idiot proof and you'll just find a bigger idiot"?


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_
I was hoping you'd shed some light on the issue, instead of just complaining about how it should be expected that a 130k mile transmission operate flawlessly until the end of time. 
I am an engineer by day and do failure analysis as part of my work (not for VW though) and as a hobby I rebuild transmissions, most of which have been 02As. While there could be improvements made (as is with any design in existence) there would be very little overall benefit to any of the end users. I've been parusing junkyards for the last decade, specifically for VWs in the midwest and california/nevada and have only come across exploded transmissions a handful of times. Of course the problem is well documented here... what else are users going to post about?... perfectly fine transmissions?
Bolt kits are sold because there isn't any alternative if you want to change the ring gear or change the differential. And as far as I know there are only two vendors (peloquin and apr).. of which peloquin now only makes the newer style kit for their LSD, which doesn't work with anything else.
As far as catastrophic failures go, this is minor. If this is the worst you've seen you haven't spent much time around cars.
I've found in both my job, my car club, and my own cars, the problem is almost always the end user. Ever heard the saying "make it idiot proof and you'll just find a bigger idiot"?

I never said I expected them to perform flawlessly until the end of time. That is a woeful exaggeration by you. But ten years and 130K for a car's lifespan before catastrophic failure is not too good in my opinion.
Nice to see your level of knowledge about 02As. The fact you have seen some of these says something, and even you would have to admit that failures (assuming adequate quality controls when they were built) in these units would likely follow a bell curve as most of these transmissions entered the same usage level. Mine was the first year these were used on New Beetles. It is likely, especially considering VW's arsinine no service interval for tranny fluid, combined with the weaknesses noted on this board, that "the best numbers are yet to come" as far as these failures go.
Nope, I havn't spent any time around racing cars in which such failures would be expected. Should never happen to a passenger car, however, unless abused as a racing car.
I don't give VW a pass on this as you do. Many rebuilders and drivers have noted the failure modes of these transmissions. And they can't be traced back to driver abuse. In fact, VW making some changes in these transmissions (albeit creating new problems when doing so) shows they are aware of their deficient design. They would have obviously made no such cases if the problems were as limited as you believe and they were limited to only extreme abuse of the transmissions. Their design changes are admissions in and of themselves earlier designs did not pass muster in service. And for that data to filter up to VW so they made those changes means many were aware of these problems in the hierarchy of VW, even if you aren't.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

I don't want to start a pissing match, but you claim that "many" people on the internet have posted about this very failure. Please, care to tell me how many separate cases you found during your searches? Not just some 'I heard abouts,' and 'I've seen this before.'
I bet that even with the very large group of people that make up O2J owners (former owners) that the VWVortex is, you won't find more than 50 or so cases where a decently driven car, that has been maintained (by reasonable specs, not just following VW's 'Lifetime' fluid reccomendation) had an exploding differential. You will however find hundreds of people who claim to know a guy who's sister had it happen. That is the beauty of the internet. A couple issues posted on a frequented forum soon baloon into a massive nearly class-action-lawsuit discussion, all because two or three poeple experienced the same failure. As far as the aftermarket having businesses that 'thrive' on this particular issue, remember, these people aren't large firms and do business from all over the country. So when a guy who rebuilds transmissions in his garage has a 'full workload,' that could very well be 5 units a week. Like I have said before, this is definitely a raw deal for you, but please don't go on spitting out skewed findings. Anyone can search here, or the entire web for VW transmission failure, and get 1.89bajillion results. Actually start reading through them, picking out which ones are actually personal experiences, then narrow that down to manual transmissions, then narrow that down to the 02J, then narrow that down to cars with service history showing fluid changes to the proper kind within 100k of the failure..... I bet you'll find a few hundred, max. Please see the light, this isn't some conspiracy to rip your toes off while driving down the road by spider gear debris.
Oh and VW's powertrain warranty is only until 50k, so 130 is 80k miles past the warranty period. So if it was designed in, it was designed to last almost 3 times the warranty period.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thetwodubheads* »_I don't want to start a pissing match, but you claim that "many" people on the internet have posted about this very failure. Please, care to tell me how many separate cases you found during your searches? Not just some 'I heard abouts,' and 'I've seen this before.'
I bet that even with the very large group of people that make up O2J owners (former owners) that the VWVortex is, you won't find more than 50 or so cases where a decently driven car, that has been maintained (by reasonable specs, not just following VW's 'Lifetime' fluid reccomendation) had an exploding differential. You will however find hundreds of people who claim to know a guy who's sister had it happen. That is the beauty of the internet. A couple issues posted on a frequented forum soon baloon into a massive nearly class-action-lawsuit discussion, all because two or three poeple experienced the same failure. As far as the aftermarket having businesses that 'thrive' on this particular issue, remember, these people aren't large firms and do business from all over the country. So when a guy who rebuilds transmissions in his garage has a 'full workload,' that could very well be 5 units a week. Like I have said before, this is definitely a raw deal for you, but please don't go on spitting out skewed findings. Anyone can search here, or the entire web for VW transmission failure, and get 1.89bajillion results. Actually start reading through them, picking out which ones are actually personal experiences, then narrow that down to manual transmissions, then narrow that down to the 02J, then narrow that down to cars with service history showing fluid changes to the proper kind within 100k of the failure..... I bet you'll find a few hundred, max. Please see the light, this isn't some conspiracy to rip your toes off while driving down the road by spider gear debris.
Oh and VW's powertrain warranty is only until 50k, so 130 is 80k miles past the warranty period. So if it was designed in, it was designed to last almost 3 times the warranty period.

Yeah, figures it would be only 50K. Still, exploding transmissions are dangerous. Simply wearing out from normal use would be acceptable, as long as all worn parts stay inside the transmission. VW may be shooting themselves in the foot with such little confidence as shown by their warrantys and such little apparent "MTBCF", or for the less technical among us, "Mean Time Between Catastrophic Failure", which is different that the standard "MTBF." This car was never abused. The engine still runs like a top, yet the tranny fails twice in less than a thousand miles and would likely fail shortly again in some new but familiar to other Vdubbers if the recent catastrophe was repaired. Just because you want to immitate an ostrich on this issue is no reason I or anyone else here need to do the same. Anyone who wants to pursue a class action lawsuit on this issue (and others with the transmission) please PM me. These types of failures have only just recently begun in earnest. I'd like to gather data on these failures and see where it leads us. Please send me model, year, miles, and any troubles you've had with your factory built VW manual tranny, along with any details on service history (fluid changes, or not, etc.). Thanks. We may be able to get data even thetwodubheads can't tear down.


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:20 AM 1-7-2009_


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

I have seen the 02a/j tranny take alot of abuse before failings, 
and there have been some that have exploded in both 20. 8vs and the 90-100 hp tdi, 
sometimes you get a good one, sometimes a bad one, seems li,e there are more bad ones now that there are less germany made parts in them


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_You're going on a snipe hunt. But good luck with that.
My first car was a Chevrolet Beretta. I bought it with 60k miles on it. I went through three transmissions (all rebuilt I might add) until I got rid of it with 145k miles, with the third tranny slipping badly. Where's the class action lawsuit? There isn't one! Guess how many other people this happened to? Just about EVERYONE who owned any GM FWD in the 90's!!!!!!!
What about the mid-90's Dodge Ram automatics? They would fail in 15k miles or less sometimes! Where's the class action suit there?
My Father-in-law had a 2004 Ford F150. It had 31k miles on it. One day he started it up, put it in reverse, (automatic) there was a loud clang, the truck stalled and the transmission locked up tight. Tossed one of the clutch packs. He never even hauled/towed anything with it. Did he file a suit? Nope, he towed the POS back to the Ford dealership and traded it in.
For a tranny to last 130k miles of abuse, and yes, it was abused, because no manual transmission lube will look like chocolate milk unless there was moisture contamination or the fluid was burned from excessive wheelspin, I'd say that's pretty good engineering.
Brendan

LOL. You're right. Attorneys likely won't take these kind of lawsuits unless deaths occur because of the defect, hence VW installed the "death shield" to shield them from liability for these explosions as pictured. 
You make a good case in trying yourself to shield them from liability.
I'm not the only one who has changed VW's self described "lifetime tranny fluid" to find it looking like that, and no, it wasn't from water and abuse. Unfortunately, it was likely that thick fluid that was holding the bucket o' gears together, or keeping the fluid from circulating the "free radical" metal piece around the inside of the tranny that sealed its doom.
Is 130K the life of an average VW? You'd better not continue to indicate that or car buyers might read that and go elsewhere.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (austin neuschafer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *austin neuschafer* »_I have seen the 02a/j tranny take alot of abuse before failings, 
and there have been some that have exploded in both 20. 8vs and the 90-100 hp tdi, 
sometimes you get a good one, sometimes a bad one, seems li,e there are more bad ones now that there are less germany made parts in them

Thanks for the info Austin. You are more reasonable than others here that were former VW employees. Interesting. My VW came out of Mexico, but the origin of the tranny is not know. The Germans may have kept that business for themselves. It is not good to know that more parts of theirs trans are being outsourced as time goes on. With outsourcing, the company often intentionally (as in the case of Boeing) or unintentionally looses control of the quality and conformity of the parts. If what you state is true, VW (or more accurately, their customers) will have many more transmission failures in the future. I think they are just beginning to get to the high arc of the bell curve of failures of these transmissions, but as most of them occur after 50K, they don't care, and if one does go bad before 50K the VW techs are trained to say the failure was because of customer abuse of the car. After all, VWs are for grandmothers who baby them, and not for any driver wanting any kind of performance from them. 0 to 60 in no less than 30 minutes, or they may explode. That may explain some drivers on the freeway. Usually elderly drivers, I never noticed the type of car they were driving. They usually never drove their cars past 48 mph on the freeway. And this was weirdly consistent on several occasions. 48 mph when everyone else was doing 60. I don't know how many of them got injured on the freeway thusly from rear end accidents. But I digress. If VW could capture just those kind of customers, they wouldn't have to build any quality or reliability into their transmissions, and they could outsource everything.


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

Ok, I've read through this with an open mind, and a compassionate heart. I felt bad this happened to you, and was really interested to see if any new information surfaced from your incident.
But no, it's the same stuff you can search for and find just being repeated with more enthusiasm, and skepticism.
Please, you are just trying to stir the pot on this one. There is no serious threat of death or dismemberment from a catastrophic failure of parts. There is no inherent eagerness from the parts to just explode without reason. These are mechanical bits manufactured to a set of tolerances in materials and fitment. I see, and work with mechanical pieces all day at the power plant I work for. Many of which are made by the lowest bidder to make the bottom line look good. I have seen so many part failures it's comical. Some of which happened so out of the blue and with a 'that shouldn't happen' manner that it dumbfounded our managers with more than 70yrs combined experience. Schit happens. It has been said over and over, and no one is arguing the fact that some components in these transmissions are weak. But to sit there and blow this whole ordeal out of proportion is just ridicules. Your transmission was messed up by bad fluid. Done, over, end of story. Whether it was abused, neglected, contaminated, whatever; it caused a serious failure. 
Come on seriously. When a couple hundred transmissions fail in the same manner, it's a coincidence. A few thousand, it's common. When a million or more do it, then you can say it was a design flaw (conspiracy).
Over a million new beetles have been sold as of February this year. Now, add into that the number of Jettas, Golfs, GTIs, Cabrios, Seats, Skodas, and other foreign cars that share the platform and consequently the transmission, you have a very large number of vehicles sold with this unit. Please, if you want help with the car, and have questions about how to make it better, by all means keep asking questions. If you are intent on trying to spread the doom that is the 02j transmission, you'll have better luck writing consumer reports about it. They love to hear from un-happy customers.
Peace out. I'm done reading this muck. I'll go "ostrich" it.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thetwodubheads* »_Ok, I've read through this with an open mind, and a compassionate heart. I felt bad this happened to you, and was really interested to see if any new information surfaced from your incident.
But no, it's the same stuff you can search for and find just being repeated with more enthusiasm, and skepticism.
Please, you are just trying to stir the pot on this one. There is no serious threat of death or dismemberment from a catastrophic failure of parts. There is no inherent eagerness from the parts to just explode without reason. These are mechanical bits manufactured to a set of tolerances in materials and fitment. I see, and work with mechanical pieces all day at the power plant I work for. Many of which are made by the lowest bidder to make the bottom line look good. I have seen so many part failures it's comical. Some of which happened so out of the blue and with a 'that shouldn't happen' manner that it dumbfounded our managers with more than 70yrs combined experience. Schit happens. It has been said over and over, and no one is arguing the fact that some components in these transmissions are weak. But to sit there and blow this whole ordeal out of proportion is just ridicules. Your transmission was messed up by bad fluid. Done, over, end of story. Whether it was abused, neglected, contaminated, whatever; it caused a serious failure. 
Come on seriously. When a couple hundred transmissions fail in the same manner, it's a coincidence. A few thousand, it's common. When a million or more do it, then you can say it was a design flaw (conspiracy).
Over a million new beetles have been sold as of February this year. Now, add into that the number of Jettas, Golfs, GTIs, Cabrios, Seats, Skodas, and other foreign cars that share the platform and consequently the transmission, you have a very large number of vehicles sold with this unit. Please, if you want help with the car, and have questions about how to make it better, by all means keep asking questions. If you are intent on trying to spread the doom that is the 02j transmission, you'll have better luck writing consumer reports about it. They love to hear from un-happy customers.
Peace out. I'm done reading this muck. I'll go "ostrich" it.

LOL. It seems you are the one who bitches when someone has a different opinion than you. A million or more exploding transmissions needed to prove a defect? I think you have proved something else entirely about yourself with that statement. But how did you get so biased is what we should ask. Of course, my exploding transmission proves nothing new as it is nothing new by far!















You simply assume this was caused by bad fluid, although even you admit some components in these transmissions are weak. There is no basis for your conclusion, and no service interval for fluid, so per VW, I could have put the drained fluid back in as there is no standard for when the fluid should be changed. Indeed, VW's insistence that this fluid does not need to be changed may be part of the reason for earlier failure than there would have been otherwise, but the weak parts issue is obviously of more importance even for VW, as the fluid was only in there 30K past some people who think they know more than VW's recommendations, even though some people say change at 60K, etc. This fluid issue does point toward VW wanting these transmissions to fail, if you are logical and do not accept their belief this fluid never needs to be changed. Logically it follows, if that is true, what other parts of the transmission did they design to ensure a limited service life? Or was just not changing the fluid supposed to doom them by itself?
A couple hundred times lightning strikes in the same place is no coincidence. Some say twice is no coincidence.
Great with the ostrich thing. Good place to keep your head. You said it best "the doom that is the 02J transmission." Perhaps cars salesman could sell these cars that way. And here, this baby has "the doom that is the 02J transmission." Maybe some masochistic people would buy one based on that pitch. I'm interested in tracking these explosions as well as ensuring my next transmission is "explosion proofed."


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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (trex2400)*

_Modified by Lord_Verminaard at 8:20 AM 1-7-2009_


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## sheimbach (Mar 12, 2006)

and please will you look at this guys pictures and tell him that his so called "death shield" is just the sway bar he really wont believe me


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## BDBD (Aug 23, 2006)

*Re: (trex2400)*

Well, 2 bits of good news: No visible cracks or holes in the transmission (01 Golf TDI that moves 1 foot in or out of gear) and a 25-years-of-experience VW mechanic in AZ (where I'm picking up a tdi for a 2kmile drive home) was unaware of the phenomenon (differential -> SMS).


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## HGB (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: (trex2400)*

Here is the deal... VW or their supplier built the trans with diff rivets, it is a weak point, everyone knows this by now. A chain is as strong as its weakest link, and the next weak spot is the roll pin, yes a roll pin that secures the cross shaft in the diff, which holds the diff pinion gears. When that let go, the pics you have above will be reality. This wont be seen too much in the VW dealerships as by then your warranty will be done and it will cost you both arms and both legs. And if it is still under warranty, you will be blamed in many not all cases, for the issue under the spirited driving issue. (yes I can say this as I worked at a VW dealer before and its just plain true) 
Most of the rabbits had thicker diff rivet heads, so you still have them running around with even 300k on them with no issues, even though they let go as well. They also did not have many reverse gear issues (thats another story) The A2 body style trans came with the smaller rivet hears, weaker material, and after a few years the diff rivet issue took off even more, then the 02A then later 02A, and even the 02Ms have diff rivets and roll pin design. 
To say the design is not a VW fault is being blind to the issue in the real world. The reverse gear issue, I will have to say that is mainly a driver and maintenance issue, not stopping the car before selecting reverse, not adjusting the clutch, or a bad clutch caused this in most cases. BUT, All these years of making cars, and bellowing DRIVER'S WANTED, a driver showed up to get a a GTI and get some wide open diff trans in it. If VW is not at fault they what are they "engineering" when they dont learn from errors?
You have to really ask yourself these:
Why are they still using diff rivets when they know they will let go even under normal driving, and then sell a diff bolt kit for around $125-$145 in the parts dept? -- Because its cheaper to use a rivet that pay for threaded nuts and bolts that are 12.9 grade.
Why use a roll pin to secure a shaft that see centrifugal forces all the time under any load-- Again cheaper than bolts and nuts.
They are still building the trans with the same stuff, just making them little stronger but they are still weak. When you have cars from other companies using bolts in their diff you have to wonder what the hell the Germans are doing. 
I still love VWs but you have to point out the weakness to ensure future quality. This is the real world and I have pics, evidence, etc for the no believers also...


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_
I'd be willing to bet there are close to a million failed FWD GM transmissions from 90's era cars by now. Especially if most people were as stupid as I was and rebuilt the damn thing three times. You ask how we are biased? This is a VW ENTHUSIAST FORUM!!!! You come on here spouting off B.S. claims that there is sufficient flaws in the design to warrant a class-action suit? What did you expect most of us to say? Especially when you originally wanted to know how common a failure it was and promptly found out that it was NOT a common failure. You still think it is? Prove me wrong. I've only worked in a service environment with thousands of cars on the road but I don't know what I'm talking about.....







The only thing I've found by searching is this site that rebuilds VW transmissions: http://www.vwtransaxles.com/diff.html and they are simply pointing out the weak spots that you have so cleverly found out on your own.
Yes, VW claims it is a "lifetime" fluid interval. So does BMW. So does GM. So does just about EVERYONE. Want to know why? So when companies like Consumer Reports tally up maintenance costs over a period of time for a type of car, they can leave out transmission fluid changes, making the car look more favorable to the consumer. Once again, prove me wrong. Every idiot knows that any sort of fluid in a car will need changed eventually. The VW Dealership I worked for highly suggested manual transmission fluid changes at 60k. Sure it was a few extra $$ on top of a repair order but we also didn't want people stuck with a broken transmission. I will almost %100 guarantee if you call up a BMW dealership right now and ask if the manual transmission fluid should be changed, they will tell you YES.
BTW, the 02J is made in Germany, most of the gears come from Hor. There are literally multiple-millions of these transmissions in service. With numbers like that, there ARE going to be some failures. Just because you decided you are special when yours went out doesn't mean you really are special. For as old as the car is and the number of miles that are on it, I'd say you are more lucky than special that there is nothing else wrong with it.
Brendan

Brendan,
I thought you stated you were going to put your head where the sun doesn't shine (like an ostrich) and not monitor this thread? I guess I'll have to answer your post out of courtesy.
Actually, most people posting here are remarkably even handed, admitting flaws in these transmissions, even if this is a VW fanboy thread as you claim. I am a fan of VW's styling. Doesn't mean I have to like defects in their transmissions. Rebuilt three times? Sure they didn't fail because of the rebuild? I never tinkered with the internals of this transmission, other than to change the fluid and drain plug. 
I found out it was not a common failure? How is that so when these transmission's rebuilders state it is a common method (one of several common methods) for these transmissions to fail prematurely? Ostrich and fanboy indeed. I like VWs, but I don't have to like their transmission engineering department or management that used fluid changes to mask internal transmission components overstressing noises that could be heard to the driver through multiple layers of sound insulation. 
Yeah, I do think you're a bit crazy to assert you know what you're talking about in this instance, as well. 
I wouldn't expect a VW fanboy to research VW's defects too deeply.
I'm not sure about your rationale for "lifetime transmission" fluid claims by manufacturers. I think both GM and Ford have service intervals that require filter changes/inspection at some point. Anyone who reads this and knows what Brendan knows is true is true or not, please post. I think he is just trying to distract from VWs errors on this by diversion (even GM does it, etc.). Am I supposed to believe a global industry wide conspiracy to make maintenance costs look better by not advocating changing of tranny fluid as you allege, when you decry the mere hint of conspiracy in just one small area of VW?
BMW perhaps changing their minds on the subject and some dealerships wanting some money and maybe caring about customers at VW by having customers pony up for tranny fluid changes at 60K does not relieve VW of their wrong headed decision still to not advocate changing it. There are strong reasons they don't--to do so may in their minds be an admission that past "no change required" policies led to transmission failures sooner rather than later. Some dealerships advocating fluid changes at 60K (likely from service techs who came to VW service departments from Ford and GM and couldn't believe VWs "no change required" policy) is only 10 K past the warranty. Strange coincidence? Or just covering their arses for those trannys that failed before 50K which they blamed on "driver abuse," like you?
Lucky to get 130K from a VW? That is a ringing endorsement from a self described VW service expert! You just ensured I will never buy a new VW until they begin designing them to last past 60K. Barely ten years old? LOL. German engineering and built by Germans. Transmissions aren't the fabled "German Engineering" fame source, we now know. Then what is? BMW? I hope BMW engineers had nothing to do with these 02Js. That would damage their reputation. Thanks for the info on 02J sourcing at least. Too bad the most defective component in this Mexico built New Beetle was its German Transmission. I've got newfound respect for Mexican workers South of the border.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (BDBD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BDBD* »_Well, 2 bits of good news: No visible cracks or holes in the transmission (01 Golf TDI that moves 1 foot in or out of gear) and a 25-years-of-experience VW mechanic in AZ (where I'm picking up a tdi for a 2kmile drive home) was unaware of the phenomenon (differential -> SMS).

Unfortunately, BDBD, without "cracking" open the transmission (as they call it) and inspecting and magnifluxing all of the gears, even your experienced mechanic won't be able to tell you anything concrete about the condition of the internals, whether the rivets were changed out with bolts, or if the cross shaft is adquately retaiined. I hope it doesn't explode on you on the way home on that 2K trip. Maybe it isn't an 02J tranny, hopefully. Beware of a slipping clutch and a slight pull to the side going downhill in nuetral. Both could be signs the differential has only a few more miles before complete "detonation."


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (HGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HGB* »_Here is the deal... VW or their supplier built the trans with diff rivets, it is a weak point, everyone knows this by now. A chain is as strong as its weakest link, and the next weak spot is the roll pin, yes a roll pin that secures the cross shaft in the diff, which holds the diff pinion gears. When that let go, the pics you have above will be reality. This wont be seen too much in the VW dealerships as by then your warranty will be done and it will cost you both arms and both legs. And if it is still under warranty, you will be blamed in many not all cases, for the issue under the spirited driving issue. (yes I can say this as I worked at a VW dealer before and its just plain true) 
Most of the rabbits had thicker diff rivet heads, so you still have them running around with even 300k on them with no issues, even though they let go as well. They also did not have many reverse gear issues (thats another story) The A2 body style trans came with the smaller rivet hears, weaker material, and after a few years the diff rivet issue took off even more, then the 02A then later 02A, and even the 02Ms have diff rivets and roll pin design. 
To say the design is not a VW fault is being blind to the issue in the real world. The reverse gear issue, I will have to say that is mainly a driver and maintenance issue, not stopping the car before selecting reverse, not adjusting the clutch, or a bad clutch caused this in most cases. BUT, All these years of making cars, and bellowing DRIVER'S WANTED, a driver showed up to get a a GTI and get some wide open diff trans in it. If VW is not at fault they what are they "engineering" when they dont learn from errors?
You have to really ask yourself these:
Why are they still using diff rivets when they know they will let go even under normal driving, and then sell a diff bolt kit for around $125-$145 in the parts dept? -- Because its cheaper to use a rivet that pay for threaded nuts and bolts that are 12.9 grade.
Why use a roll pin to secure a shaft that see centrifugal forces all the time under any load-- Again cheaper than bolts and nuts.
They are still building the trans with the same stuff, just making them little stronger but they are still weak. When you have cars from other companies using bolts in their diff you have to wonder what the hell the Germans are doing. 
I still love VWs but you have to point out the weakness to ensure future quality. This is the real world and I have pics, evidence, etc for the no believers also...









Thanks HGB! That's an expert opinion that makes sense, not because it matches mine, but because it matches the evidence and other unbiased expert opinions who don't have thei head in the sand or somewhere else. 
Excellent post. I urge others to read it carefully. I can't add to its definitiveness. 
Seems German "thriftiness" or greed is at the heart of the issue, as well as perhaps a very stubborn nature to not change a design significantly so as to not admit fault by doing so, which also saves them money, but costs their customers much, much more than they add to the bottom line by such actions.


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## vwsm (Jan 21, 2006)

the tranny came apart because of cheap metal material that holds everything in place.
changing the fluid would not have prevented the failure.Mr Robot was feeling a little bit tired that day and the rivots were'nt as snug that day.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (HGB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HGB* »_Here is the deal... VW or their supplier built the trans with diff rivets, it is a weak point, everyone knows this by now. A chain is as strong as its weakest link, and the next weak spot is the roll pin, yes a roll pin that secures the cross shaft in the diff, which holds the diff pinion gears. When that let go, the pics you have above will be reality. This wont be seen too much in the VW dealerships as by then your warranty will be done and it will cost you both arms and both legs. And if it is still under warranty, you will be blamed in many not all cases, for the issue under the spirited driving issue. (yes I can say this as I worked at a VW dealer before and its just plain true) 
Most of the rabbits had thicker diff rivet heads, so you still have them running around with even 300k on them with no issues, even though they let go as well. They also did not have many reverse gear issues (thats another story) The A2 body style trans came with the smaller rivet hears, weaker material, and after a few years the diff rivet issue took off even more, then the 02A then later 02A, and even the 02Ms have diff rivets and roll pin design. 
To say the design is not a VW fault is being blind to the issue in the real world. The reverse gear issue, I will have to say that is mainly a driver and maintenance issue, not stopping the car before selecting reverse, not adjusting the clutch, or a bad clutch caused this in most cases. BUT, All these years of making cars, and bellowing DRIVER'S WANTED, a driver showed up to get a a GTI and get some wide open diff trans in it. If VW is not at fault they what are they "engineering" when they dont learn from errors?
You have to really ask yourself these:
Why are they still using diff rivets when they know they will let go even under normal driving, and then sell a diff bolt kit for around $125-$145 in the parts dept? -- Because its cheaper to use a rivet that pay for threaded nuts and bolts that are 12.9 grade.
Why use a roll pin to secure a shaft that see centrifugal forces all the time under any load-- Again cheaper than bolts and nuts.
They are still building the trans with the same stuff, just making them little stronger but they are still weak. When you have cars from other companies using bolts in their diff you have to wonder what the hell the Germans are doing. 
I still love VWs but you have to point out the weakness to ensure future quality. This is the real world and I have pics, evidence, etc for the no believers also...









Thanks HGB! That's an expert opinion that makes sense, not because it matches mine, but because it matches the evidence and other unbiased expert opinions who don't have thei head in the sand or somewhere else. 
Excellent post. I urge others to read it carefully. I can't add to its definitiveness. 
Seems German "thriftiness" or greed is at the heart of the issue, as well as perhaps a very stubborn nature to not change a design significantly so as to not admit fault by doing so, which also saves them money, but costs their customers much, much more than they add to the bottom line by such actions.


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## MKS13 (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (trex2400)*

Well here I am posting in a forum I'd never thought I'd be in. I only wish I knew this a year ago. 90k and a quarter sized hole in the tranny heh. So from what i'm reading the best option is 2 buy a used 02j check it out n throw in a lsd just 2 be sure it doesnt blow. Cuz if i have 2 open up the dif case I might as well make it worth while.




_Modified by MKS13 at 8:34 PM 1-17-2009_


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (MKS13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKS13* »_Well here I am posting in a forum I'd never thought I'd be in. I only wish I knew this a year ago. 90k and a quarter sized hole in the tranny heh. So from what i'm reading the best option is 2 buy a used 02j check it out n throw in a lsd just 2 be sure it doesnt blow. Cuz if i have 2 open up the dif case I might as well make it worth while._Modified by MKS13 at 8:34 PM 1-17-2009_

Thanks for the post, MKS13. That would be the safest option, I suppose, if you have the bucks for an LSD. It would be the surest way to eliminate the multiple methods of failure engineered into these tranny's diffs. 90K 03 Jetta? Wow. if you get a peek inside that hole or tear it down later, be sure to post the method of failure here for others to know (spider gears, rivets, carrier shaft departed, etc.). A couple people who say they are knowledgeable think these are rare failures, and when they do fail, it is from driver abuse. We know different, however.


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## MKS13 (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (trex2400)*

No i baby my car (especially being its my only driveable one 4 now) but it WAS shifting like crap for the past 10k or so but I attributed that to a bad clutch (another dub weak point). When I pulled the tran...hole. Yaay 4 me


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (trex2400)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_Seems German "thriftiness" or greed is at the heart of the issue, as well as perhaps a very stubborn nature to not change a design significantly so as to not admit fault by doing so, which also saves them money, but costs their customers much, much more than they add to the bottom line by such actions.

Do yo realize that VW is in business to make a profit? 
All manufactures design their cars for a life span of 10 years or 100K miles. after that they want you to buy another new car. why should they care if X car companys trans last 300K+
The geman engineers fight the accountants as to what will last long enough but not cost too much.
I had a mk2 golf with a 020 that never had tranny probs, was abused constantly, never changed the fluid, and was working fine when the car was totaled @ 375K miles. My current tranny has about 200K on it, I added the peloquin 80% diff kit(more stress) and autocross the car, still works great! so to say that all VW trannys are defective isnt true. these arent MK4 cars or 02J but everyone seems to agree the 020 is the weakest.

_Quote, originally posted by *trex2400* »_and maybe VW didn't plan defects into them to limit their lives/increase service department revenue like they obviously did with the 02js.









VW makes very little money from part sales, the dealer makes almost all the profit in service.
A very good engineer will design the part to last not much longer than the designed life span.
If VW or any car company made a car that lasted 1 million miles with no service why would anyone buy a new car?










_Modified by Rocco R16V at 1:08 PM 1-18-2009_


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## MKS13 (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_
If VW or any car company made a car that lasted 1 million miles with no service why would anyone buy a new car?










I wouldve settled for 120k-150k but 90k and tranny holes? This just makes me wanna split on vw, sorry but why stay right. I mean as a faithful japanese car buyer I stepped outside of my norm and went "German" (despite 90% of it bein from the opposite side of the world heh) and never expected THIS. I mean as a guy who hasnt seen a repair shop in 10 years (because of my own preventative maintenance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ) I do try 2 anticipate the worst when it comes to cars. But 90k! Wow i must say this is a first 4 me.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_
Do yo realize that VW is in business to make a profit? 
All manufactures design their cars for a life span of 10 years or 100K miles. after that they want you to buy another new car. why should they care if X car companys trans last 300K+
The geman engineers fight the accountants as to what will last long enough but not cost too much.
I had a mk2 golf with a 020 that never had tranny probs, was abused constantly, never changed the fluid, and was working fine when the car was totaled @ 375K miles. My current tranny has about 200K on it, I added the peloquin 80% diff kit(more stress) and autocross the car, still works great! so to say that all VW trannys are defective isnt true. these arent MK4 cars or 02J but everyone seems to agree the 020 is the weakest.








VW makes very little money from part sales, the dealer makes almost all the profit in service.
A very good engineer will design the part to last not much longer than the designed life span.
If VW or any car company made a car that lasted 1 million miles with no service why would anyone buy a new car?









_Modified by Rocco R16V at 1:08 PM 1-18-2009_


Really, Germany isn't a communist country? I never had any idea they were a capitalist country and ran businesses for profit--not.








Yeah, evryone knows why manufacturers won't warranty their cars past 100K, but this doesn't mean they are designed to explode at approx 100K as VWs are, apparently. 90K and 130K averages to just over 100K. Manufacturers, including VW, issue maintenance schedules past 100K. The reason some people don't want to have cars past 100K is because they don't want to be hassled with the small things that wear out after that, even with proper maintenance--alternators, water pumps, batteries, clutches, etc. It isn't because they know the transmission is about to explode, nor should it be. There is no reason, as you also inferred, that a car cannot be driven past 200K if the driver is willing to spend extra to maintain it. Even with these extra costs, keeping an older car is cheaper than buying new--except in the case of VW, which have designed their transmissions to explode at just over 100K, on average. They apparently didn't want bad alternators and the like being the impetus for people to buy another car. They wanted to make VW pwners have a much more pressing reason to come to the dealership and buy another car--designing major components to explode that would cost more than the value of the car to fix. Ethical? No. Smart business decision? Perhaps, except most of these victims will probably not buy VWs again. The high value component they designed several well known (now) methods to ensure explosion, thereby rendering said expensive component entirely unrepairable? Yep, you guessed it--the transmission. So much for "German design" and "German craftmanship." However, their "design for the junk yard" engineers did do well to design these transmissions to explode at the "sweet spot" of just over 100K, thereby supposedly maximizing sales of new cars by designing obsolesence into them better than any other manufacturer. Their design of major components to explode at just over 100K is a novel idea in the car business. Usually manufacturers will design a car for a lifespan of ten years or 100K so that consumers, facing much higher maintenance and repair costs, will be gently prodded thusly to trade it in for a new car. Leave it to VW to boldy go where no other manufacturer has gone recently in order to maximize obsolesence and increase sales. I wonder if they considered making the whole car explode in flames ala the Pinto, instead of just focusing on the transmission? A similar ticking time bomb could have been designed into the gas tank. Alas, families dying being burned alive in your cars does not make for good press, plus it literally kills your repeat customer you are trying to ensure by designing defects into the car. So, they focused on designing the next best costly component of the car to explode by ensuring at least three different methods to ensure the explosion of the transmission via the differential at 100K. There is a difference between designing a car to only last 100K and designing a car to explode at 100K.
The 020 can't be compared to the 02J. 02J's are just entering their "sweet spot" of designed in failures, whereas the 020 history is well known. 02J's no doubt will top the 020 by far in the accuracy and costliness of their designed in methods of catastrophic failure.
LOL. VW makes little money from part sales? You haven't bought many parts from the dealer, have you? Selling a part that cost 50 cent to make for $100 has got to be profitable. In fact, it is so profitable that other companies are springing up to get in the market to make parts for VWs as "upgrades."
1 million miles? No one is expecting that. But designing a car to last at least 100K would be nice, and not specifically designing in defects to cause costly tranny explosions at 100K would be better. Any one who wants to mainain a car past 100K should be able to. Changing the transmission out at 100K should not have been designed into the maintenance schedule.


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## trex2400 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (MKS13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKS13* »_
I wouldve settled for 120k-150k but 90k and tranny holes? This just makes me wanna split on vw, sorry but why stay right. I mean as a faithful japanese car buyer I stepped outside of my norm and went "German" (despite 90% of it bein from the opposite side of the world heh) and never expected THIS. I mean as a guy who hasnt seen a repair shop in 10 years (because of my own preventative maintenance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ) I do try 2 anticipate the worst when it comes to cars. But 90k! Wow i must say this is a first 4 me. 

Well written, MKS13. I take it that the cause of your clutch problems (as was mine only 900 or so miles after putting in a new clutch) was these tranny holes that let tranny fluid contaminate the clutch? You're "lucky" you only had relatively small holes, rather than the "big hole" I had. End problem's the same though--unrepairable transmission. 
Strange people will defend VWs designed in catastrophic tranny failures as "just a company trying to make a buck" and a "normal business practice." This is capitalism at its worst. Please post some photos when you get the chance. We need to document this, even if some want to ignore it for whatever reason.


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## sheimbach (Mar 12, 2006)

this is such a joke...if it was a designed defect wouldn't all of them break by 100k...i know at least 5 people personally with over 200 k on there original o2j, this is not counting all the cars i worked on at my work...a vw specialty shop where by the way we have never replace a o2j


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## MKS13 (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (sheimbach)*

Well i know 1 person for sure that its happened to n thats me. I guess until its you, you wont understand. I belive there's also a poll going around so take it for what its worth


_Modified by MKS13 at 8:44 PM 1-21-2009_


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## sheimbach (Mar 12, 2006)

all cars break...i work at a vw specialty shop and i have replaced trannys in ford trucks and cars more then i have Volkswagens and we work on 10 times more vw then domestic crap


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## racecrabbit (Apr 9, 2003)

*Re: (sheimbach)*

02a/02j differentials have built in probelms.
A single 5mm roll pin that only pentrates one side of the X shaft easliy breaks and is responible for about 60 or 70% of all the o2j failures I see. Your basic 10 cent part failure. Its easy to update so it won't happen again once the unit is pull downhttp://www.vwtransaxles.com/diff.html<p>
VW MAKES ANOTHER CRAPPY DIFF


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## Three Wood (Nov 29, 2008)

On the other hand the 020 in my car has 213k on it, still the original one, and I drive the piss out of it, so did the previous owner.
02As get a bad rap but you haven't seen anything compared to a G5M. (Mazda trans) I know someone who went through five of them in his ZX2, and he only had that car for 40,000mi. 
ALL front drive transaxles are weak. There's only so much material you can put in there and meet weight and cost considerations. (Sure the engineers could make a bombproof 100 million mile trans but you couldn't afford it!)
okay late edit now that I am at home and can finish my thoughts!:
When you break the diff pin out of the carrier there is only one reason for that. One of the spider gears "stuck" to it and twisted it out. The only time the spider gears ever TURN is when the two axles are moving different speeds. Every winter here we see a bunch of cars that have exploded the differential this way - not limited to VW by any stretch. The common factor is that the car got stuck but only one wheel was spinning and the driver kept heavy on the throttle.
Those little gears are not meant to transfer high loads or run at high speeds! The main gears are and they run on ball bearings or needle bearings. The little side gears run on... nothing but the shaft. Run heavy throttle with one tire spinning, and you WILL break a two-gear diff, no matter what it is!
Note I said "two gear". I learned to drive in a car with a Ford 9", which all had four side gears and a cross instead of a straight pin. The gears still only ride on a shaft and not bearings, but at least the load is halved. I had a lot of habits to unlearn. My NEXT car, well the next car that had the guts to spin the tires in the rain







was an RX-7. I did a one wheeled burnout down the entire length of an on-ramp in the rain. About 1/2 mile later I heard a "clunk" and the diff starting making a tock-tock-tock noise. When I'd let off the throttle the rearend would lock up! Know what happened yet? The side gears (only two) galled to the shaft and snapped the the rollpin holding it to the diff carrier. The intial tock-tock-tock was the pin coming around and hitting the pinion gear. When I'd let off the throttle, the relaxed tension holding the shaft in place would allow it to REALLY slide out and it would jam. So 130 miles away from home, in early winter, and I had to drive a manual transmission car without letting off of the throttle or it'd lock up. Made it home, too.
FWD transmissions do not have the luxury of having a convenient hardened steel flat surface to bang the pinion back in. The pinion just keeps sliding out until it explodes the case.
My friend who kept eating G5Ms? He lived for the burnouts. I remember driving acorss a 1/4 mile long bridge with him in 3rd gear near redline spinning the tires the whole way across at full left lock. He even knew that his habits were why transmission life was so short, he just figured that regular trans explosions would be a fact of life.
As far as the "whirring" noise is concerned... IMO VW probably made a tradeoff of strength/longevity vs. noise. I am unfamiliar with the trans in question (for now) but it sounds like they stick a brass thrust washer under the gears. That's a good idea, actually the Mazda diff I exploded did that too. It gives a very small measure of limited-slip. Anything that helps prevent one-wheel-peel is Good for differential life. However it may be noisy under certain conditions - the tradeoff. So they say use special fluid X to help eliminate the noise that is a side effect that engineering tradeoff.
Anyway - I have never seen a blown diff that wasn't abused. Getting stuck in snow or mud IS abuse, even if it's some little old lady doing it...



_Modified by Three Wood at 6:27 PM 2-17-2009_


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## cambucket (May 6, 2011)

now after reading this whole thread my man three wood has some real insight spoken like a true mechanic:beer:


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## eligti1.8t (Apr 13, 2010)

sorry to revive an old thread but i just got told by my mechanic that a hole blew open on the tranny side of my transmision  now i have a 2005 mk4 gti with 150k and it blew while driving on the highway doing the speed limit, also its a completly stock car so im not sure if this is the same as what has been mentioned in this forum but this just happened to me and it looks like im going to need a new tranny any recomendations????


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

I've heard of them blowing driving through town at 25-35mph. 

Get a used trans. you can pick them up for couple hundred bucks, then if you can swing it, have a diff bolt kit installed for another couple hundred. With fresh fluid and a bolt kit you should be in pretty good shape. 

And go to a good shop, not just jo-blow's corner mechanic.


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## eligti1.8t (Apr 13, 2010)

yeah thats what i have read, most people have it happen on turns going slow mines happened on the highway, but yeah im already searching for the used tranny and and see where i can get the kit you mentioned, again thanks for the info :thumbup:


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

034motorsport, USP, ECS, FCPEuro. Those are all good shops, at least one should carry it.

EVWparts should also have it. they're a VW trans specialty shop.


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## eligti1.8t (Apr 13, 2010)

thanks man those are some good sites i saved them to my favorites  hopefully i can find all i need to get my Dub back on the road as soon as possible lol !!!


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## eligti1.8t (Apr 13, 2010)

This is how my tranny looks inside









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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

that was your roll pin on the diff cross-shaft that broke. allowing the cross-shaft to become a missile.


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## eligti1.8t (Apr 13, 2010)

Yup it really tore up my pressure plate and clutch not to mention the landscaping it did on the tranny bell housing lol

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