# Audi V8 head on 1.8 16v KR



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Does anyone know anything about this?
Heard there were 1.8 16v engines built with Audi V8 heads. Talking bout the car, V8, not just the engine.
The V8 heads had a better angled intakeport than the stock head. The engine I want to put this on is a 1.8 16v KR engine.
If anyone know anything, lemme know!
If there are other V8 engines that can also be used for this for the same reason, better performance, also let me know. All help is appreciated.






















Usefull links:
Volkswagen Enginecodes (Dempseys)
Audi Enginecodes (Dempseys)
Audi 2.0 16v ACE specs (Dutch)
VAG Engine Part Dimensions
VWVortex: Which Audi V8 has a VW 16v head?
2.0 16v (with V8 head?) in BTCC / STW, including engine-specs
ACE Engine in a mk2 Body



_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 2:22 PM 2-25-2010_


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

I'm also interested i this ... any info on this guys???


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## CanadianCabby (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*

from what ive read it wont work.. there is info out there about it... i think only the left one is similar to the 16v head... the right one is the mirror image... i think the oil or water galleries are differnt or something... i know the valve cover from a v8 wont fit a 16v


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (CanadianCabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CanadianCabby* »_from what ive read it wont work.. there is info out there about it... i think only the left one is similar to the 16v head... the right one is the mirror image... i think the oil or water galleries are differnt or something... i know the valve cover from a v8 wont fit a 16v

The right one actually is the same, not the left one. Clockwise, looking from the top, you'd need distribution, exhaust, tranny, intake. The right head of a V8 has this, since the tranny is at the rear and the distribution is at the front. Exhazust on the outer side, inlet on the inner side, betwee the two heads.
There are some coolant-lines that need to be welded shut, but it has been done. These engines were used in older VW race-cars, but I couldn't find any more than that sadly.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Found some more info on the Tex: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3522993


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

so actually it could be done.. it looks interesting... something has got to be interesting with those heas... i gotta get one...


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*

ttt


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## Sallad (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Sounds like a lot of work for what? Is there that much difference in flow? I wonder if the gains would be worth it. I guess if nothing else, it's something different.
Sounds cool.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Sallad)*

This setup was used in racing. Only reason they changed to the KR or ABA heads was cause the V8 head gave too much power.
So guess something bout these heads must be better. Just want to make sure what head I need before I spend the money on it.


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

EDIT...

waiting any info on those things...
before start to find any head from 32v...










_Modified by LamaMk1 at 4:59 PM 2-6-2010_


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

I'm pretty sure that it was the angle of the valves to the piston. As you probably know, the 16v's angles are not ideal. 
This might be useful for you: http://www.clubgti.com/forum/s...87653


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

well.. there's some nice info on there...
but i just cant magine 305HP from N/A 2.0 liter engine... that's way too sick...


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_I'm pretty sure that it was the angle of the valves to the piston. As you probably know, the 16v's angles are not ideal. 
This might be useful for you: http://www.clubgti.com/forum/s...87653

Yeah, the angle of the inlets is better, compared to the KR. And the KR inlets are better compared to the mk3 2.0L 16v heads.
Looked through that link, and the links that are posted there. Went on a journey over half the interwebs, but found nothing about the V8 head on a KR.








Positive note: the KR might be obsolete, after reading what was in that link. The STW-Audi used a 2.0 16v engine, with 140hp. Turns out that engine is a better base than the KR 1.8 16v.... 
So back to the drawingboard, and let's find out if the V8 will fit that 2.0 16v Audi engine. 
Thanks for the info!


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LamaMk1* »_well.. there's some nice info on there...
but i just cant magine 305HP from N/A 2.0 liter engine... that's way too sick...

Meh, 200-250 HP from a N/A 1.8 16v is doable, so 300 hp from a 2.0 sounds ok. 
It all depends on the monayz!








Guessing somewhere around 20k and up...


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Look at page 10. Apparently you can angle skim the head, and improve the design.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (franque)*

Just opened page ten, finished reading the first nine.
They talk about using a 3.6 V8 head on the Audi 80 2.0 16v underblock, if I'm right. But also say the V8 head has a cooling hose connection, next to the timing belt, and the heads shown on the STW head don't have that....
About those angled heads: English isn't my native language, so I'm not sure if I understand it. What way do they angle the head to? The ex. valves are moved closer to the pistons, and the int. valves are mover further away from the pistons, right? 
So the angle between the ex. valve and piston surface gets bigger, and the angle between the int. valve and piston surfice gets smaller?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Looked at a local online selling site, something like Craigslist, and found an Audi 80 with a 103kW engine, so 140hp.
The car was reserved for some kids, but turns out they only need the car, cause they have a 7A engine they want to put in.
So asked the seller of the car to get me in touch with the prolly new owners of it, hoping to be able to buy the engine before some one else gets it, or before it gets scrapped.
Engine-code should be ACE, just like the engines used for the Audi 80's and 90's racecars.


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Yeah, that's really just the Audi 80 Competition motor... there's nothing terribly special about it, maybe a little more power (like you said, 140 HP). As to the skimming question, just imagine installing a head on an engine with a head gasket that is a little thicker on one side than the other... that would be the general effect. If you really are interested in doing this, you should PM Issam.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Yeah, that's really just the Audi 80 Competition motor... there's nothing terribly special about it, maybe a little more power (like you said, 140 HP).  

I know, but it's already 200cc more to start with, and the head is way better. The angles of the inlets and exhausts are better than the KR head.
It's always possible to install the V8 head lateron, but the base already is better with the ACE. If what I've read is correct, Audi used the ACE block with the 3.6 V8 right side head.


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

i had ACE camshafts in my previous 1.8L 16v in mk1 golf they are better then 9a/PL camshafts sp that's why audi got more hp.. block is pretty much same as 9a...
and i dont know about the head, but, what i could see here's no difference in head with ACE/9a engines...
or maybe i'm wrong...i'm not so shure cuz that was before 3 years now...
my mate over here has got ACE engine in mk1 golf only it has 50mm intake manifold from rocco, supersprint header and catless exhaust...
he ended up with 150bhp...
so i doubt that there are some major differences in heads between 9A/ACE...


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LamaMk1* »_i had ACE camshafts in my previous 1.8L 16v in mk1 golf they are better then 9a/PL camshafts sp that's why audi got more hp.. block is pretty much same as 9a...
and i dont know about the head, but, what i could see here's no difference in head with ACE/9a engines...
or maybe i'm wrong...i'm not so shure cuz that was before 3 years now...
my mate over here has got ACE engine in mk1 golf only it has 50mm intake manifold from rocco, supersprint header and catless exhaust...
he ended up with 150bhp...
so i doubt that there are some major differences in heads between 9A/ACE...

Already have 140 hp with my 1.8 KR, stock. So I'm curious to know what limits the hp to the same amount for the 2.0 16v. Those 200cc must be good for something... would that all be torque?


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

well .. i'm so sad cuz i didn't measured peak hp in mk1 while there was 9a lump in it...
day before 1/4mile race i'v put KR cams on it.. damn that thing was fast...
e36 M3 with 286bhp had hard time to pass me till 180km/h.. that car was crazy fast...
9a with KR cams and 50mm intake is hell of a good combination...
KR intake cam is lot better than PL/9a's you should definitely get some power if you put 2.0L block...
and afcourse you will be able to drive on the highway on the idle with more torque..


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*

I looked at Vagcat, and the P/Ns are almost identical, the ACE just has a B suffix at the end of the P/N. If anybody wants to send me some ACE camshafts for some experimentation, I would be happy to oblige this summer.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*

So what you're saying is that if I went for i.e. the ACE 2.0 16v with stock 140hp, I could gain some power and torque by installing KR cams?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

To go on a lil bout that ACE engine: http://www.clubgti.com/FORUM/a....html
Already got the exhaust covered, so the ACE with ABF inletcams should already gimme about 170hp. A whole lot better base to start from than the 140hp 1.8 16v KR engine I have now.
Man, now I'm stoked about getting that ACE engine, if I can still get it at all! The seller hasn't gotten back to me yet.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_
There are some coolant-lines that need to be welded shut, but it has been done. These engines were used in older VW race-cars, but I couldn't find any more than that sadly.
You want the 3.6 head not the 4.2 heads as the 4.2 heads have a different bore spacing.
And yes been done countless times.Only advantage is to have that super cool valve cover otherwise spend your money elsewhere.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_You want the 3.6 head not the 4.2 heads as the 4.2 heads have a different bore spacing.
And yes been done countless times.Only advantage is to have that super cool valve cover otherwise spend your money elsewhere.

Thanks! Does it matter what 3.6 head I take, or are there no differences in model-years? I know I need to take the one on the right side.
Prolly gonna buy me an Audi 80 2.0 16v Competition monday, so that'd already have that same cover.







Maybe I'll be putting that 3.6 head on there later as well, but the ACE engine has way better angled intakes than the VW engines already, I've read.
Found an article about that car and engine, checked the local online selling site, found one and made an appointment. If the car ain't big rubbish, I guess I'm just gonna buy it and drive it as a daily till I got the cash to redo the engine right.

Read putting ABF cams in it, HP should go from 140 to 170 already. A lot more than the stock 140 I've got in the KR now.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Soooo... no more Competition for me. 
Posted some questions about the car on a Dutch forum overhere, and another forum-guy thought it was a nice car and bought the car right from under me.
So much for *fellow* dubbers.








Gess we gotta start from scratch again... friggin ass...


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

I think that the heads are the same, ACE wise versus 9A/6A/KR/PL/ABF. By the way, yes, 3.6s are all the same. THe 3.7, however, will not work, as it uses 4.2 bore spacing.


_Modified by franque at 2:10 PM 2-10-2010_


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_I think that the heads are the same, ACE wise versus 9A/6A/KR/PL/ABF. By the way, yes, 3.6s are all the same. THe 3.7, however, will not work, as it uses 4.2 bore spacing.

I know the mk3 2.0 16v head has a terrible head, cause it's power would get too close to the VR's power. Since the VR cost about thirteen gazillion bucks and a half, and the 16v only cost a button and a chewed piece o gum, no one would've bought the VR.
So, VW decided to give the 16v a rubbish head, to keep the ponies asleep. 
The PL and KR have different cams and injection, for the rest the heads should be the same. Other differences with those are the cat (dunno the word in English, but works sorta like an afterburner, and sits directly after the downpipe) and the extra computer and ****load of electronics.
The reason I wanted the ACE was the 2L block, and the better head. Might want to put on a V8 head lateron, but for now those 170 puppies should be fine. It's of great help though, knowing all 3.6 heads are the same, thanks!








Found another Competition for sale again though, costs about twice as much at least though.


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

i figured this out a few years ago, i sat a 3.6 head on a 16v bottom end and matches up just fine. i just scrapped a pair of 10k mile heads and kept the 5 speed cams. no one wanted the pair for 75$ obo
all 3.6 32v heads have auto cams. there are a handful of 3.6 audi v8 5spd cams, only like 51 5spds were imported. the 5 speed cam has larger lift and such, i have the numbers around here somewhere.
being an audi v8 owner.....i know a few tricks....32v 4.2 auto cams are interchangeable into a 3.6 head and guess what...they more even more power for us v8 folk. you can not use the 4.2 head; as Issam stated the bore spacing is different, but the cams are the same dimensionally .
here is the even better part, a very few of the old skool v8 guys have had monster custom grinds made...even more power. slap a porsche adj fpr on and get a wide band to dial it in perfect.
3.6 = 240 hp
3.6 abt chip = dyno proven 33awhp = 280chp quattro is approx 23% drive line loss
toss in 4.2 cams...even moar
if you can slap a left v8 head on there....why cant you swap a right head on there and have the intake on the back side and exhaust on the front.....










_Modified by dspl1236 at 1:50 PM 2-12-2010_


_Modified by dspl1236 at 7:43 AM 2-13-2010_


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dspl1236)*

Wouldn't it be hard to work out the timing belt then?


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

tb rotates the same direction and in theory should be the same length. cam gear would be on the right side. even if the belt is longer, the gear will still rotate at the same rate regardless of where the head is mounted because of the crank pulley size is static and the cam gear is static, therefor the ratio will always be the same.
if i still had those v8 heads, i would slap them on the 9a block we have sitting in the corner....

the more i think about it, it may not work putting a right head on the block...idno. firing order maybe different....and not in the correct time with the crank. i think it is at least test worthy on a bench or something to mock up

***but someone should left head v8 w/4.2 cams a 1.8 or 2.0.....



_Modified by dspl1236 at 7:43 AM 2-13-2010_


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## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

i think you can't fit v8 cams onto 4cyl, because of firing order... ithink it's not same..
but left head if youre looking engine from the front should fit...


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (LamaMk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LamaMk1* »_i think you can't fit v8 cams onto 4cyl, because of firing order... ithink it's not same..
but left head if youre looking engine from the front should fit...

you dont swap the cams, you swap an entire v8 head, then swap bigger cams into the v8 head

i may have my head side backwards....you need the left head to swap onto a...ill fix my above post


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

after reading this thread i went and bought a passenger side head of a 3.6l v8 audi
it looks identical; it has the extra colant pipe by the front timing cover; and i have an issue with the oil filler cap. if i want to use the audi one from the driver side head( it is the only one with one filler cap) the orientation leaves that under the runners of the passat intake manifold.
i also have a scirooco manifold but i think it will be the same issue. i will pick this up monday.
any ideas other that run the 9a valve cover?
thank you for the info here.
he has the distribuitors also. do i need one of these?
any one want the driver side head?


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

What kind of ignition do you plan on running? I do believe that each side has its own distributor, but if you are running aftermarket engine management, you could just go coilpack. The distributor would probably what you want to run, however.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dspl1236)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dspl1236* »_i figured this out a few years ago, i sat a 3.6 head on a 16v bottom end and matches up just fine. i just scrapped a pair of 10k mile heads and kept the 5 speed cams. no one wanted the pair for 75$ obo
all 3.6 32v heads have auto cams. there are a handful of 3.6 audi v8 5spd cams, only like 51 5spds were imported. the 5 speed cam has larger lift and such, i have the numbers around here somewhere.
being an audi v8 owner.....i know a few tricks....32v 4.2 auto cams are interchangeable into a 3.6 head and guess what...they more even more power for us v8 folk. you can not use the 4.2 head; as Issam stated the bore spacing is different, but the cams are the same dimensionally .
here is the even better part, a very few of the old skool v8 guys have had monster custom grinds made...even more power. slap a porsche adj fpr on and get a wide band to dial it in perfect.
3.6 = 240 hp
3.6 abt chip = dyno proven 33awhp = 280chp quattro is approx 23% drive line loss
toss in 4.2 cams...even moar
if you can slap a left v8 head on there....why cant you swap a right head on there and have the intake on the back side and exhaust on the front.....











Great info!








What do you mean by 5spd cams? And do you have the partnumber or anything on what 3.6 head to go for. I'm in Europe, so I haven't got a clue on what was sold here and what wasn't. V8's have never been so wanted here really due to gas-prices.
Don't think the left head would do. The head is slightly tilted iirc, so it'd be tilted to the wrong side. Intake and exhaust valves are on the wrong side, so you'd prolly have to put the pistons in backwards (esp if you're using perf. pistons). Also guessing firing order would be way off. My guess is the 1-3-4-2 order of the right side is morrored to the left one, to keep vibrations to a minimum. So if 1 fires on the right side, 1 also fires on the left side. If you put the head on a 4-cilinder bottom though, you'd have to turn it around, so 1 becomes 4... or something... I'm starting to confuse myself... sounded really clear _in_ my head.








And you have any idea of wether or not the ACE head is different / better / worse than the right 3.6 V8 head?


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Unfortunately, I can only answer your question about the cams, but here goes: In the US, nobody wants standard shift luxury cars, and as a result, only 51 (or 76, depending on the numbers you believe) 5-speed V8 quattros were imported. The 5-speed cams have a bit more lift, and maybe duration, and are merely better for performance. Try Vagcat.com for information about the V8. I think that the tilting was done by Audisport, I don't think that they were stock tilted in relation to the 16v head. The ACE/Any other 16v are probably very similar to the 3.6 head, with the exception of the new FSI heads, which I hear flow a TON!!


_Modified by franque at 2:36 PM 2-13-2010_


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

right now i am plan ing to turbo the cis-e system with volvo or mercedes benz fuel distribuitor and i have a gti wire harness for the 16v knock box system that runs separeted from the motornic stuff. so i need a hall sender in the distribuitor. my question is if i can use the 9a or i have to use the audi one?


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

no one really has any appreciation for these old t44 cars as much anymore and most end up in junk yards so parts are getting scarce.
from what i have heard, there are only about 110 v8 5speeds worldwide. I had a 90 auto, then turned it into a 5speed. did a few of these swaps and a 3.6 5spd into a 4.2 5spd.
early a8's had 4.2 32v motors as well 
US v8's: 3.6l - 90 and 91, 4.2l 92 and 94. we do our numbers based on insurance numbers and if audi had left over stock, they just renamed it to the next year and sold them like that. all us 90 and 91 cars were built in 89 and 90. all 92-93's were built in 92. the few 94's we have were built in 93 i think and the there was one leftover 94 sold as a 95. there is also a '90 that came over in full euro gear, hid's w/ leveling, kh/m speedo...the works loaded out. it was a 89 preorder in cali
EU v8's: 3.6l - 89 and 91, 4.2l 92 and 93/94, the a8 replaced this car.
use the distributor that is on the 3.6 head if it comes with it, otherwise use your 16v one

3.6 5spd car








4.2 auto








drivers 3.6









my old beast








i can get carried away sometime when posting










_Modified by dspl1236 at 8:19 AM 2-14-2010_


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

thank you so much for the info on the importation of these audis. are you related to the bureau of customs or something? or work for the corporate part of vw audi?
the picture of the driver shows the distribuitor on the front of the engine if i was to put that on the 9a block with the intake and manifolds in the same location as the 9a originals. so the distribuitor points to the front of the 9a. not good. that is why they say to take the passenger side head from the v8. i did that already. what about the 4.2 cams into the audi 3.6 head? if these are a performance upgrade withing the audi family and now i am putting the audi head on top of a vw block. 
could these 4.2 audi cams be dropped into a vw aplication head at once and avoid buying aftermarket cams ets from tt or autotech or schricks?
do you have a set of 4.2 cams for sale or trade?


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (dspl1236)*

What's up with the cover on the cam bearings?


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

tha is on the driver side head. so when you remove the filler cap ' oil does not splash out.
it is hard to see that with out the valve cover on it.


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_thank you so much for the info on the importation of these audis. are you related to the bureau of customs or something? or work for the corporate part of vw audi?
*negative, i have been lucky enough to hear these stories from small g2g's with pretty much v8's only and a couple other cars. most of these guys are in their 40's so knowledge is plentiful. I just work full time testing servers for parts and i do vag stuff on the side....but would love to do it full time at some point....*
the picture of the driver shows the distributor on the front of the engine if i was to put that on the 9a block with the intake and manifolds in the same location as the 9a originals. so the distributor points to the front of the 9a. not good. that is why they say to take the passenger side head from the v8. i did that already. what about the 4.2 cams into the audi 3.6 head? if these are a performance upgrade withing the audi family and now i am putting the audi head on top of a vw block. 
*audi v8's have dual distributors. they sit on the back of the head on the exhaust side of the heads. you would want to use the passenger side head, distributor is in the same place as a 16v. never seen them out the front. 3.6 auto cams are the most prevalent, 3.6 5 speed cams are a better performance over the 3.6 auto cams. the performance gained from 4.2 auto cams beat any stock 3.6 cam. the only reason we (v8 guys) know about swapping 4.2 cams is that no one makes aftermarket 32v cams unless you get 4 custom grinds....$$$$, so no one does it.
i have heard of a '90 5speed with a 4.2 swap, ABT 3.6 chip, higher compression, porsche adj fpr, ported heads, 3.6l intake mani, 6speed tdi quattro tranny, and custom cams....steps sideways in 2nd gear....now this is a 4000lb car with 3 torsen diffs(front/center/rear)
*
could these 4.2 audi cams be dropped into a vw aplication head at once and avoid buying aftermarket cams ets from tt or autotech or schricks?
*i do not know if 1.8/2.0 16v cams are interchangeable with passenger side v8 cams, but i can find out! i will lay out my 3.6 5spd cams next to 1.8 16v cams one of these nights this week.
*
do you have a set of 4.2 cams for sale or trade?

i am sitting on 3.6 5speed cams for an unknown project in the future









front to back: '90 5spd, '93 auto, '90 5spd, my '90 convert 5spd, '91 200 20v, '90 200 v8 swap, and a 4kcs



















_Modified by dspl1236 at 4:43 PM 2-14-2010_


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

also....i may have a lead on brand new 3.6 heads.......


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

well i bught a passenger side head with 30000 kms on it and plenty of carbon build up for 50 canadian bucks. how good of a deal can you give on the new head?
yes i saw the dual distribuitor but he seems reluctant to let go for that price the distribuitor also. 
do you have a vw dizzi to pop in the head and tell me if it goes in?
what do you know about the oil filler cap? how can i solcve this problem?
i like much more the audi valve cover than the vw one


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

i can try a few part combinations for you guys. the oil cap thing is a situation .... make sure you don't burn oil or leak...pop the cover off for every oil change?
i feel as if all the v8's ran rich. i had a a pair of my v8 5peed head for sale for 100$, i ended up pulling cams and breaking down the head for aluminum to scrap. you can buy a 3.6 with all accessories, harness and ecu for 200$. one one wants them so its cheap. i am going to buy one to drop into my 80q and swap the 5spd cams.
ya the audi covers are cool, its different. oh ya do not think they are aluminum, its a mixture to make them lighter? i have heard they are magnesium.
the new heads are either 3.6 or 4.2 i do not remember, but they were super cheap. ill dig that up as well


----------



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

watching for info.
anyone confirm that 4cyl 16v cams will work in the v8 head, or do you need to use the v8 cams?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

Ellocolindo, thanks for all the info so far. If you could determine wether or not the 16v cams will fit the V8 head, that'd be great! Would open a whole new world of possible options... or close it.


----------



## jetta2dr16v (Dec 15, 2003)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

I can get past the lack of an oil filler ( My brother and I shaved mine on my current cover)
What I am after is if the 3.6 can have a 4 cyl 16v distributor directly installed. Also is there a "Factory" style cam position sensor. Either one works for me as I run standalone. 
I have to check the local yard to see if it was a 3.6 or a 4.2 v8 in the corner
thanks


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

tomorrow i should pick up the haed and i have a 9a spare distributor i will ram in there right away. i should have some news tomorrow night. 
also i just bought a pl block to slap this onto. i thought if i use the 9a with the audi head my compretion ratio will go up; i will have to use a spacer to turbo this sucker later on. i paid about the same money a spacer goes for around here than the short block with a knive edge cranck picked up about 30 miuntes drive away.
any ideas about this way of getting around the spacing issue?
i was not looking to spend any money this past week before i run into this thread. 
i wonder where it is going to take me next.
OHHH if some one wants to join in ; i have a line and a price on audi s6 4,2 cams from germany. 
i can split the set of 4 cams with some one here. send me a pm and we can talk


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

I'm pretty sure that the driver's side cams will not work on the passenger side, so splitting a set would be nearly pointless.


----------



## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_tomorrow i should pick up the haed and i have a 9a spare distributor i will ram in there right away. i should have some news tomorrow night. 
also i just bought a pl block to slap this onto. i thought if i use the 9a with the audi head my compretion ratio will go up; i will have to use a spacer to turbo this sucker later on. i paid about the same money a spacer goes for around here than the short block with a knive edge cranck picked up about 30 miuntes drive away.
any ideas about this way of getting around the spacing issue?
i was not looking to spend any money this past week before i run into this thread. 
i wonder where it is going to take me next.
OHHH if some one wants to join in ; i have a line and a price on audi s6 4,2 cams from germany. 
i can split the set of 4 cams with some one here. send me a pm and we can talk



you need a 3.6 head passenger right head to do this! s6 is a 40v motor not a 32v if i am correct....no can a 40v v8 head fit a 1.8t 20v block....?


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dspl1236)*

Probably not, the 40vs all have 4.2 bore spacing afaik. 4.2 bore spacing does not work with the VAG 4 cyl.


----------



## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

ahh that is right, forgot my own stuff!


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

okay; great news. i brought the head home last night.
YOU DO NEED TO USE THE AUDI DISTRIBUTOR TO FIT THE HEAD>
the vw is smaller in circunference where it attaches to the audi head.
the guy i bought it from would not sale me the distributor that has the hall sender from the audi.
the audi has dual distributors. one has a hall sender ; the other just a rotor .
get the one dummy one.
WE WERE LOOKING AND MEASURING THE GUTS FROM THE VW 9A AND THEY ALL SEEMS TO FIT INTO THE AUDI DUMMY DISTRIBUTOR.
all you have to do to the audi one is cut the opening on the housing were the hall sender goes through. . the casting of the audi already has the provition for it.


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i will try and take some pictures tonight of the head and distributor. i do not know and do not care to learn how to post pictures her. so if some one wants to post the pictures for me let me know hwere i send them to and he or she can do that for the thread to move on.


----------



## mcdub (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: Audi V8 head on 1.8 16v KR (Breadfan5968)*

Ask and you shall receive.
http://www.audisport-iberica.c...90003


----------



## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

cant wait to see pictures... 
could you compare 16v intake and exhaust channels with v8 head???


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

it seems my last post was deleted. here it goes again
sad news. the intake mani from the rocco does not bolt up to the audi head. the location for the studs ids different.
the actual ports and spacing seem to be the same. just that the studs for mounting the mani are spaced out differently. so unless some one comes up with a solution in a 2 or 3 days time i will sale or return the head. 
i sent about 40 pictures to some one in here to post them up for everyone to see.


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Audi V8 head on 1.8 16v KR (mcdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mcdub* »_Ask and you shall receive.
http://www.audisport-iberica.c...90003



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yUvD_ir104&feature=player_embedded


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

well thank you for the post but it seems that almost every one who has used this combo of head and block has ITB. that is out of my league when it comes to price and skills. 
so anyone have a picture or link to a page where they use a oem manifold other than the audi one?
do i have to source a audi manyfold and cut the flange out to weld it to a vw manifold?


----------



## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

or make an adapter plate. ill get the pics of the head up today.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_well thank you for the post but it seems that almost every one who has used this combo of head and block has ITB. that is out of my league when it comes to price and skills. 
so anyone have a picture or link to a page where they use a oem manifold other than the audi one?
do i have to source a audi manyfold and cut the flange out to weld it to a vw manifold?

I want to got itb, so that's why I started looking into this in the first place.
But those itb's might also give you the solution to your problem. Some itb's use adapterplates to make them fit directly to the head. You could use one of those, or just make a plate yourself. It's not really that much work.


----------



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Very intersting thread !
heard about that !
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Bought myself a 3.6 V8 PT engine this week, hope to be able to pick her up by the end of next month. As soon as it's here, I'll get some pics from every side and see how it fits the 4 colinder gti block. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Can't wait, I'm sooooo siked!


----------



## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

glued to this topic... cant wait to se some pictures...


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

what did you pay for the whole engine?


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: Audi V8 head on 1.8 16v KR (Mtl-Marc)*

That thing was running slide TBs. Really neat! I wonder if Audisport was using half of the V8 DTM's fuel injection as well


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_what did you pay for the whole engine? 

275 euro, so guessing about 350 USD.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

As of today I am the prowd owner of one V8 3.6 PT engine, one ACE 2.0 16v underblock and one complete ACE engine.






















Man, can't wait to pick 'em up and get to work!!!


----------



## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Nice! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Steve-


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_As of today I am the prowd owner of one V8 3.6 PT engine, one ACE 2.0 16v underblock and one complete ACE engine.






















Man, can't wait to pick 'em up and get to work!!!

What does a 16V ACE motor has, especially the head, that PLs and 9As don't have?


----------



## macodola (Jan 31, 2009)

This thread is awesome! Just got a job at an engine machine shop (R&L Engines in Dover, NH) and am looking into building a 16v turbo for my rabbit and this is looking like an awesome unique option. Keep it up!


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

whell; where are my pictures? i sent about 40 of them to someone on here to post them and another guy over the hotmail also. anyone can post them? send me a line and i will forward them. BUT TO HAVE THEM POSTED HERE PLEASE


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mtl-Marc* »_
What does a 16V ACE motor has, especially the head, that PLs and 9As don't have?

The ACE has 200cc more than the PL, to start with. ACE is 2.0, the PL and KR are only 1.8.
The 9A and ACE are about the same. Both have:
4 Cilinders
4 valves per cilinder
1984cm^3 displacement
82,5 mm bore
92,8 mm stroke
10,8:1 cr
140 hp
The ACE engine is the one used in the Audi 80 Competition racecars though, so first of all I thought it was a cool detail, plus it's something else than "all others" have. 
The ACE is a more reliable block than the 9A, and I was told the V8 head fits the ACE engine better than it does the 9A. It's what Audi did for their racecar, so it can't be a bad combination I guess.
The 2.0 also just seems like a smarter choice to start with than a 1.8. Already got a KR in the mk2, and a spare KR in the shelves. I've made a little calculation of what this whole project is gonna cost me, and the couple hundred euro's I spend on the bigger engine now are just a fraction of what this project will cost in the end, but the 200 extra cc's will give me more torque and hp than the KR does, before I've even started modifying it.
As far as the head of these engines: the angle of the intake and exhaust chanels is better on the ACE engine than it is on the 2.0 VW engine. The VR engine was so rediculously expensive, that VW decided to modify the head of the 2.0 16v, to give it less hp. That way the high price of the VR compared to the 2.0 16v was justified, cause the VR gave "way" more tq and hp. If VW hadn't changed the head on the 2.0 16v, no VR would've eve been sold I guess.
The angle of the intake and exhaust chanels on the V8 should even be better than those of the ACE engine. Plus, again, it seemed like a cool different route to go.




_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 11:01 AM 2-25-2010_


----------



## mafosta (Dec 24, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_
The ACE is a more reliable block than the ACE,

????


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (mafosta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mafosta* »_
????

Sorry, that second ACE should've been 9A.


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Wait, did you measure the valve angle? Or is it just hearsay when you say that the ACE has superior valve angles?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Wait, did you measure the valve angle? Or is it just hearsay when you say that the ACE has superior valve angles?

Only hearsay. Haven't got the head at my place yet, prolly won't be for another week or two. 
But the story about the 2.0 16v on the Golf 3 and Corrado sounds logic. Those VR's were so expensive, no one would've ever bought one if they could have had almost as much power with the 16v and spend way less money.
All over the internet I read stories about people who have these heads, they all say the casting of the KR, ACE and PT heads make way more sense than that of the ABF and 9A heads.
Just look at the 1.8 16v KR and the 2.0 16v ABF. Both have 140hp. Those 200cc extra must get lost somewhere. And it's not in the cams, cause using the KR or ABF cams on the ACE or PT head will already give you way more power. The underblock of the ABF, 9A and ACE are about the same as well, so that can't be it either. 
But I guess this could also all be "hope" talking. My hope, that the two engines I've bought will give me the right parts to build one great engine.


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

KR is catalyst free, no? I know that the ABF isn't, and you also have to remember, the ABF wasn't a range topper. It also was likely detuned to make the VR6 appear better. I would say that between emissions and detuning, and also possibly cams, it is quite possible that there is not a huge difference. Also, the ABF and 9A (for the most part with 9A) were for heavier cars, so obviously they wanted more torque. The head design does seem to make sense to me.


----------



## dogzila22 (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

ABF has 150hp is fact. My hearsay ACE has the same head as ABF


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

pictures sent or some one to post them here; again. please this is the last time i send them out to anyone here. so please post them. 
i have the head and the scirocco intake mani will not fit. how do i measure the valve angles? do i have to pull them out?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

thank you for posting them up. if some more specific pictures are needed let me know. i do not have a chance to lay this one on top of a blcok now.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

some news. today i had a chance to mock up the exhaust turbo manifold i had bought for the 9a head and put it on the audi head. great news. it slides right over the studs.
so now i guess i am keeping the head and in time when i have money and skill i might run ITB or have a adaptor plate made to bolt tup to the pl intake


----------



## mafosta (Dec 24, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

you know we are picture addicts


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_some news. today i had a chance to mock up the exhaust turbo manifold i had bought for the 9a head and put it on the audi head. great news. it slides right over the studs.
so now i guess i am keeping the head and in time when i have money and skill i might run ITB or have a adaptor plate made to bolt tup to the pl intake

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i will take some pictures the next time i head over there where the head is at. who do i send the pictures to have them uploaded to?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_i will take some pictures the next time i head over there where the head is at. who do i send the pictures to have them uploaded to?

Just send them over to me, or upload them via Imageshack.
Check the box for resizing them to 480x640, and use the "forum link" that's given after the upload is done.


----------



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Bread,
have you been able to see if regular 16v cams will fit in the V8 head?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Bread,
have you been able to see if regular 16v cams will fit in the V8 head?

Not yet, will prolly pick the V8 up by the end of next week. 
But some one else with a 3.6 V8 already asked me for the KR cams I have for sale, to put in his Audi. He told me it's a pretty common mod. 
As soon as the engine is here I'll take a ****load of pics and throw them online here though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

you going to take a stab at measuring the valve angle?


----------



## Cushy (Oct 16, 2008)

id like to see a pic of how well the V8 head fits on the ACE block. Also curious if anybody has any cfm of flow for any comparison of 9a-ACE-ABF-V8?


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

okay tonight i got another 8 or 10 shots of the head and the turbo mani in place. i will send them from work to the last person i did so he can post them up.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (arenjenkins)*


_Quote, originally posted by *arenjenkins* »_you going to take a stab at measuring the valve angle?

A stab?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (veefreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veefreek* »_id like to see a pic of how well the V8 head fits on the ACE block. Also curious if anybody has any cfm of flow for any comparison of 9a-ACE-ABF-V8?

Same here!
I'll be able to test how well they fit in a few weeks. Will be picking up the V8 next week, the ACE's next month. But info on flow-differences is always welcome!


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

okay i sent another 10 pictures to the guy. i hope to see them up real soon. i have a 9a short block ready to put tghis on top and take pictures. no time to go pick up the block at mi frieds shop or to play with it for now.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_okay i sent another 10 pictures to the guy. i hope to see them up real soon. i have a 9a short block ready to put tghis on top and take pictures. no time to go pick up the block at mi frieds shop or to play with it for now. 

Received the pics, and will upload them in a few. 
News on the V8. It'll prolly be picked up by the end of this week if the seller can free the time. Need to pick up an enginehoist before then though, won't be able to "just" pick it up like I did with the KR.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Sorry guys, can't get to the pics today, hotmail is doing maintenance here.
Will upload them tomorrow as soon as hotmail is up and running again. Will also have a comparing pic of the combustion chambers of the PT and a KR for ya then.
In other news....
The threads on the V8-head whitch the exhaust manifold is bolted to, have the same angle to the head and same pattern as the ones on the KR.
The intake-ones have a different angle to the head though, so normal intake manifolds won't fit without modification to either the intake manifold or the bolts. Gotten this info today, but I believe something along these lines was also posted earlier in this thread already. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_
A stab?

yeah, stabbings better than shooting, your more likely to hit what your aiming at.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (arenjenkins)*


_Quote, originally posted by *arenjenkins* »_
yeah, stabbings better than shooting, your more likely to hit what your aiming at.

I just didn't know what you meant by it, still don't.
I'm Dutch, so English isn't my native language. You mean I'm going to sorta measure the valve-angle?


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*

Pics of the V8 PT head with a 16v Turbo manifold, that fits on a KR / PL / 9a etc head as well.
Here you see the exhasutports on the head, and the studs used for the regular V8 exhaust manifold:








Here the 16v manifold is mounted to the V8 exhaust studs, perfect fit:








Upper row fits:








Lower row of studs fits:








Also notice the coolant and oil chanels and the angle between the valves and the pistons when mounted.

Special thanks to Ellocolindo!










_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 1:23 PM 3-10-2010_


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Found this picture as well. 
On the left, it's the right side V8 PT head. On the right, there is a KR head:


----------



## MK1 Rabbit GTI (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

well that wont really work... oil drains dont line up...


----------



## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

sorry mk1 rabbit gti; what do you mean the oil passages do not line up? on my pictures or the side by side picture? line up respect of what?
thanks.


_Modified by ellocolindo at 10:31 PM 3-10-2010_


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (MK1 Rabbit GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK1 Rabbit GTI* »_well that wont really work... oil drains dont line up...









Not all do, but not all have to. As long as some can be used it's fine. Not all cooland drains line up either.
Some have to be welded shut, I was aware of that before I bought the engines already. Afaik it's about one or two lines that need to be shut.


----------



## MK1 Rabbit GTI (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

let me know if you an get it to work. i've had my eye on a v8 head for some time now...


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (MK1 Rabbit GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK1 Rabbit GTI* »_let me know if you an get it to work. i've had my eye on a v8 head for some time now...

Fits.








Picked up the V8 yesterday, and testfitted the *right* side head onto a spare KR underblock I have.
All headbolts line up perfectly, and screw right into the KR block.
Not all oil- and coolant lines line up. From what I saw in the short time I had to work on it, 3 to 5 oillines need to be shut, and two coolant lines. But I took pics of the PT and KR head, to compare. Will upload them later today.
The exhaust manifold seems to fit perfectly. 
The intake manifold from a KR won't fit. The studs it is mounted to the head with, are screwed into the PT V8 head in a 45 degree angle. The KR head has the studs screwed in in a 90 degree angle. Further more the lower part of a KR intake manifold has a to sharp bend, so it will hit the valve cover.
About that valve cover... the right side head has the valvecover without the oil refill cap. The refill cap is on the left side head. Need to figure out how to refill oil in another way while keeping the smooth and clean right side valve cover.
I believe that was it for now. Will post pictures later today I hope. Took them already, but need to spend some time with the misses today as well.








Oh, and yay, I picked up a set of BBS RS 001 rims as well.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

As promised, here are some pictures! The links over the pictures go to the big ass version of the pic.
The right side V8 head on the KR underblock:
http://img641.imageshack.us/im...n.jpg








The intake-ports:
http://img707.imageshack.us/im...s.jpg








http://img714.imageshack.us/im...g.jpg








http://img697.imageshack.us/im...p.jpg








http://img697.imageshack.us/im...u.jpg








Fitment of the head on the block:
http://img706.imageshack.us/im...p.jpg








http://img641.imageshack.us/im...o.jpg








And the combustionchambers.
PT Head cilinder 1:
http://img683.imageshack.us/im...h.jpg








KR Head cilinder 1:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img...i.jpg








PT Head cilinder 2:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img...w.jpg








KR Head cilinder 2:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/47/dsc01881c.jpg








PT Head cilinder 3:
http://img685.imageshack.us/im...u.jpg








KR Head cilindecr 3:
http://img294.imageshack.us/im...a.jpg








PT Head cilinder 4:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img...w.jpg








KR Head cilinder 4:
http://img714.imageshack.us/im...c.jpg








And to compare, pictures of the two heads. The upper one is the KR, the bottom one is the PT:
http://img175.imageshack.us/im...i.jpg








The PT head:
http://img101.imageshack.us/im...x.jpg








The KR head:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img...a.jpg










_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 10:41 AM 3-15-2010_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Based on the bad design of both.....
Not seeing why you'd mess with the PT head...???/


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_Based on the *bad design *of both.....
Not seeing why you'd mess with the PT head...???/

??


----------



## CanadianCabby (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

looks like you need to weld up 6 holes in it too... are the angles on it really that much better?


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Thanks for sharing the pics. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

It would be interesting to measure how much it flows as is.

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (CanadianCabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CanadianCabby* »_looks like you need to weld up 6 holes in it too... are the angles on it really that much better?

That's what I figured as well. Still need to talk to the welder to see how he's gonna do it though.
I'm at least hoping the head has better flow than the KR head, not sure though yet. Seen a few track-cars, among others the Audi STW (super touring car championship) car, with the same head, so I'm guessing it has to have some benefits.
Other than that, I also thought it was just coolto do and figure out how to get this working, just different, and the clean valvecover looks nice as well.


----------



## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mtl-Marc* »_Thanks for sharing the pics. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

It would be interesting to measure how much it flows as is.

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view










No problem!








Gonna try and do some measuring / guesstimating later this week, as soon as I find the time to do so. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

great pictures. i am thinking of the way to seal the extra openings.
if the extra openngs are for coolant only. can the be left opened? the coolant from the head is going to try to go trough the cylinder head gasket and go down the passage on the block( if it was an audi block) but in the vw block it will only find a flat surface to bounce off...??
pressure wise. how much pressure does the coolant system run with?
in big tractor trucks they run only about 15 to 20 psi. so a car has about the same or less...?
okay if that way is not a way to go.
what about using some sort of frost plugs on the head and have them welded or can you tap the head and thread a plug in there?


----------



## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

weld shut or use a tap and tapered plug.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_great pictures. i am thinking of the way to seal the extra openings.
if the extra openngs are for coolant only. can the be left opened? the coolant from the head is going to try to go trough the cylinder head gasket and go down the passage on the block( if it was an audi block) but in the vw block it will only find a flat surface to bounce off...??
pressure wise. how much pressure does the coolant system run with?
in big tractor trucks they run only about 15 to 20 psi. so a car has about the same or less...?
okay if that way is not a way to go.
what about using some sort of frost plugs on the head and have them welded or can you tap the head and thread a plug in there?


Was thinking of welding them shut at first, but also thought about connecting some holes...
I've seen on or two holes that are directly connected to each other. There's two holes in the head, that go in and after about 5 milimeter they join. I could aslo do this with the bottom end, if there's enough material there to drill into. So I'd just dril an extra hole in the bottom end, that connects to another hole after a few milimeters.
Still need to see what's the best option. Not sure if there's any problem when just leaving the holes as they are, the gasket will prolly just shut them, but that's not really the way I want to go with this. Building the engine will cost loads of time and cash, and I'm not really saving a few hours and bucks on those holes. Gonna do things right from the beginning. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_Gonna do things right from the beginning. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CanadianCabby (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*

i think welding them up is the best option... when putting a 1.8l 8v head on a 1.6l block that is what people do..


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_
I just didn't know what you meant by it, still don't.
I'm Dutch, so English isn't my native language. You mean I'm going to sorta measure the valve-angle?

To take a stab at = to attempt; to try.


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

With all of the additional machine work being done to the PT head, you should have it cantered as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*

yes, since it would need machining after welding anyway.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

on that link to the euro webpage at the very beginning of this thread on one of the pages in the middle of that link there is a link to a section of photos of all kinds of engine blocks cut into little pieces.
so there should be a picture there to show if it is possible to drill an extra oil hole on the block to connect to adjacent holes on the head also


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_on that link to the euro webpage at the very beginning of this thread on one of the pages in the middle of that link there is a link to a section of photos of all kinds of engine blocks cut into little pieces.
so there should be a picture there to show if it is possible to drill an extra oil hole on the block to connect to adjacent holes on the head also

Yeah, the dude who did that is on the Tex. Seen his thread some time ago already. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*


_Quote, originally posted by *idrivemyself* »_With all of the additional machine work being done to the PT head, you should have it cantered as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

The head will be totally changed anyways.
Gonna go solid lifters to make higher revs possible. It'll be ported and semi polished. Fully polishing the ports will not work with the high revs. The little bit rougher surface will cause the fuel and air to swirl whitch gives a better mixture.
The injectoropenings in de intakeports will be welded shut as well, since the injectors will be located higher up the intake manifolds, directly after the throttle bodies.
Also thinking of oversizing the intake and exhaust ports.


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_
The head will be totally changed anyways.
Gonna go solid lifters to make higher revs possible. It'll be ported and semi polished. Fully polishing the ports will not work with the high revs. The little bit rougher surface will cause the fuel and air to swirl whitch gives a better mixture.
The injectoropenings in de intakeports will be welded shut as well, since the injectors will be located higher up the intake manifolds, directly after the throttle bodies.
Also thinking of oversizing the intake and exhaust ports.

All of that sounds good. Cantering the head 2 degrees on the exhaust side should yield even more positive results to compliment the changes you have planned.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*


_Quote, originally posted by *idrivemyself* »_
All of that sounds good. Cantering the head 2 degrees on the exhaust side should yield even more positive results to compliment the changes you have planned.

Read about that, curious to see how the head is mounted on the bottom end then though. The holes for the headbolts have a 2 degree difference between the head and bottom, don't they? 
How is this solved?


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

will the head sing afterwards? Anyway, it is "canted" 2 degrees and the bolt holes must be angled also. That thread above shows it in one of the pics.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (vwpat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwpat* »_will the head sing afterwards? Anyway, it is "canted" 2 degrees and the bolt holes must be angled also. That thread above shows it in one of the pics.

Sing?
Not sure if I want to do that yet, got to draw the line somewhere, costwise. Would love to go all out, but gotta pay the bills too.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

sorry, I should have checked. I thought it had an "o" cant*o*r is singing, cant*e*r is a certain walk of a horse, cant is to tilt or angle.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Worked on the V8 head a little more today, and found out some interesting stuff!!!
First of all, I swapped the cams. 
Both heads with their own cams. The top of the two is the V8 head, the bottom one is the KR:








Removing the cams from the KR:








Removing the cams from the PT V8 head:








Installed the KR cams into the PT V8 head:








They pretty much are a perfect fit. The only problem I have found was installing the cam-gear. The end of the camshaft, where the gear mounts, is shorter on the KR-cams. The gear will hit the valvecover, and when installed, it will also hit the distributionbeltcover, that's mounted between the camgear and the head. With this cover installed, the camshaft barely toughes the camgear. So I'll prolly need to find an adapter for this, to add some length to the camshaft, or have a custom camshaft made. Prolly will go for the second option.
After this, I wondered wether or not the valvecover of the left side head would fit the right side. Wanted to check, cause the oil-refill cap is on the left side cover. The right side has non.








Seeing that this also was a perfect fit, I wanted to see what else would be interchangeble... and came to an intersting conclusion!
Left side head is on the left, the right side head is on the right:








The only difference that can be seen on the picture above, is the little pipe on the right head, that's missing on the left. This is pressed in though, and with a little efford, you can remove it, like such:








The pipe has been removed, and what is left is a whole, that's the same on both side heads.
Don't throw away the pipe, cause you'll need it. The other side of the head has a hole exactly the same, where the pipe fits into. So both heads have the hole on either side of the head, and both have one pipe in one of the holes. So pull it out on one side, and plug it in on the other side.
In the pictures below, you see the right side PT head, with KR cams, and a left side PT head with the cams of the right side PT head. The left side head has been rebuild as a right side PT.
You should end up with something like this:
Distribution side:








Gearbox side:








Intake side: 








Exhaust side:


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: (vwpat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwpat* »_will the head sing afterwards? Anyway, it is "canted" 2 degrees and the bolt holes must be angled also. That thread above shows it in one of the pics.

Thanks, you got the idea.








Yes, the bolt holes must be drilled slightly. It won't take much to get the angles right and there is plenty of material there, all you (or they) would need is a drill press. If you're steady and careful enough you can use a hand drill.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (vwpat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwpat* »_sorry, I should have checked. I thought it had an "o" cant*o*r is singing, cant*e*r is a certain walk of a horse, cant is to tilt or angle.

No, I just don't understand what you mean by "will the head sing". English isn't my native language, so I only know singing from MTV.








I know what you meant by the canter or cantor thing. Not exactly sure how it's done though... is a sloped gasket used to tilt the head slightly, of is the mounting-surface of the head "angled"?
Another thing I'd like to know is, can this redrilling also be done to the studs for the intake manifold? The PT has them under a 45 degree angle, and I want them to be under a 90 degree angle.


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

_Quote, originally posted by *Breadfan5968* »_
I know what you meant by the canter or cantor thing. Not exactly sure how it's done though... is a sloped gasket used to tilt the head slightly, of is the mounting-surface of the head "angled"?
Another thing I'd like to know is, can this redrilling also be done to the studs for the intake manifold? The PT has them under a 45 degree angle, and I want them to be under a 90 degree angle.


The offset is milled into the base of the cylinder head. A standard head gasket is then used.
Redrilling the intake manifold studs may not be worth the trouble. I'm sure that it is possible, but may not be worth the time and/or cost.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

great pictures. as for the canting or tilting of the head respect from the block. read the thread on that gticlub link from europe. read all 12 pages ; like i did ; i you will understand the why and where it is coming from that idea.
why did you want to drop the kr cams in the pt head?
would it not make sense to run the audi cams in there? 
since the head is supposed to be better flowing; i would think the cams have to correspond to that performance increment also.
again; read this complete thread from the begining.
there was a guy in the us that posted some info on using 4.2 cams into a audi head pt. so then again. why buy aftermarket cams for the 16v vw head when you can source 4.2 manual cams from ana audi and drop them into the new hibryd engine?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_great pictures. as for the canting or tilting of the head respect from the block. read the thread on that gticlub link from europe. read all 12 pages ; like i did ; i you will understand the why and where it is coming from that idea.

Will read through it again, thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_why did you want to drop the kr cams in the pt head?
would it not make sense to run the audi cams in there? 

No, it wouldn't.








The V8 has a different firing order than the 4-cilinder bottom end. So using the 4-cilinder crankshaft with the V8 camshaft would make the pistons and valves hit each other, since they would work in a different order.
I used the KR shafts to see if they'd fit at all. They are sold already though, so not using them. I do know I can use race-cams for a KR engine now though. Fast V8 cams are hard to find, but you can find the KR cams at every tunershop. 
But most important was to get the firing order in the head and bottom end to match.









_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_since the head is supposed to be better flowing; i would think the cams have to correspond to that performance increment also.
again; read this complete thread from the begining.
there was a guy in the us that posted some info on using 4.2 cams into a audi head pt. so then again. why buy aftermarket cams for the 16v vw head when you can source 4.2 manual cams from ana audi and drop them into the new hibryd engine?

I know the cams from a manual gearboxed V8 are better than the ones from an audo V8. Plus I've heard that the 4.2 has better cams than the 3.6. But again, also those 4.2 cams won't work with a 4-cilinder, since the firing order is all wrong.
Also not sure wether or not the 4.2 cams would fit the 3.6 head, since the bore-spacing of the cilinders is bigger on the 4.2. Would guess the valves are further apart in the 4.2 head as well, making the cams different.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*


_Quote, originally posted by *idrivemyself* »_
The offset is milled into the base of the cylinder head. A standard head gasket is then used.
Redrilling the intake manifold studs may not be worth the trouble. I'm sure that it is possible, but may not be worth the time and/or cost.

Could always try to do so on one of the heads, now that I've found out the left side head is the same as the right side. Also have a spare bottom end for trom the ACE engine, so no real harm can be done that way.
Think I'm gonna try redrilling the intake-studs as well. Already took 'em out, and testfitted the 16v manifold. I'm not gonna use it, but it might be usefull info for those that do... the manifold fits the head perfectly. Only problem is that it won't clear the ventilation-pipe-thingy on the valve cover. Don't know the English word for it. It's an opening in the valve cover with a rubber hose on it, to make it possible for the head to "breathe". The KR doesn't have this on the original valve cover though, so I guess it can be cut off on the V8 cover and plugged, making it possible to run a stock 16v intake manifold on the V8 head, after redrilling the intake studs. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Will post some pics of this later today. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Here are the pics of fitting the KR intake manifold to the PT V8 head.








The lower half of the manifold fits perfectly to the head. Only problem are the studs, whitch are mounted in a different angle than the ones on the KR. So redrilling the holes in either the head or the manifold is needed. I used clamps to mount the manifold, just for mock up.








The top half hits the little pipe on the valve cover, but just barely. The KR valvecover doesn't have this little pipe, so it's prolly ok to cut it off and just plug it. 
















In the pictures below can be seen how the top half and lower half of the manifold don't fully connect. Using a thick gasket or an aluminium plate cut to the size of the gasket, with a gasket on either side of the plate, could prolly solve this problem already. Or, like I said, cut off the pipe and plug it shut.


















_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 5:37 AM 3-19-2010_


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

I would not eliminate that crankcase ventilation pipe off of the valve cover by plugging it. If you're concerned about clearance, try removing the pipe, tapping the valve cover and using a banjo bolt with a hose in that place.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

yes; why plug the valve cover ventilation. specially if turboing this baby.
i was goint to run the aeg oil filler cap but now that i have the audi head and i can get the banjo fitting and copper washers free at wotk i will do this.
also it will look somehow stealth the connection rather than the bulky aeg oil cap or a tapped oil breather tube ont he tranny side of the valve cover like most 16v head show.


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## MK1 Rabbit GTI (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

i like the fact that both left and right heads are the same http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: (MK1 Rabbit GTI)*

i dont think his point was to completely delete it, the point was its in the way for the 16v intake mani to work so youd have to cut and plug it at that location.


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## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: (MK1 Rabbit GTI)*

audi is tricky like that with heads, they like to run 2 of the same.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (arenjenkins)*


_Quote, originally posted by *arenjenkins* »_i dont think his point was to completely delete it, the point was its in the way for the 16v intake mani to work so youd have to cut and plug it at that location.

Correct.
I'm not gonna run this intake, so it doesn't really matter to me. Was just giving some info for the guys and gals out there not wanting to run ITB's and stuff like that, and want to know if the stock manifold can be used.
Been hearing "NOT POSSIBLE" since I started asking about this build, so I wanted to make sure... turns out people didn't know **** about it, and it "IS POSSIBLE"!


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (arenjenkins)*


_Quote, originally posted by *arenjenkins* »_audi is tricky like that with heads, they like to run 2 of the same.

Yeah, on the other hand, why would you go through the trouble of developing another head, if the one you already have will do just fine?
Keep things simple. I'm glad both heads are the same, that way I have a spare, and don't need to buy yet another complete V8 engine just for one of the heads if something goes wrong. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Gonna install the stainless Powersprint exhaust line on the car next week, and try and work things out about the Digifiz wiring loom, so there won't be many updates from me coming week. If anyone else has any info and / or updates, please post.


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Hey, just a couple of questions: are the coolant passages from right to left the same? I was unsure, do the 16v cams work with the V8's head? Can you bolt up all of the ancillaries from the right side to the left side, and vice versa? If not, then I would guess that they are not truly reversible, but if so, great find! Either way, PTs are dirt cheap this side of the pond, so even if only one head works, it is still worth it. On a semi-unrelated note, I have heard of people tapping coolant/oil passages for -AN fittings on both the head and the block (I saw it done in Hot Rod magazine, in order to run Boss 429 heads on a Ford 460 Block, it worked fine for them), and if you did that, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating/under oiling the engine. With regards to the V8 cams (when used in a V8), the pecking order is 4.2>3.6 5-speed>3.6 auto. I was also wondering, do the heads have the superior angle that you hypothesized, or is it the same angle as a normal 16v head? Hey, and one more thing, I think that the pipe coming out of the valve cover is probably the breather, which you might want to just re route, as excessive pressure in the valve cover is not good.


_Modified by franque at 12:56 PM 3-21-2010_


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Hey, just a couple of questions: 

That´s what the thread is for. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_are the coolant passages from right to left the same? 

Yeah, they are the same. The only real difference between the two heads is that one has D1 stamped in it, the other had D2 iirc.

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_I was unsure, do the 16v cams work with the V8's head? 

Yeah, if you're using the V8 head on a 4-cilinder it will work. Using the 16v cams in a full V8 motor won't work though, since the firing order is different.
When running the V8 head on the 4-cilinder you need the cams to have the same firing order as the crankshaft.
The only problem with the KR cams is that they are a few mm to short. When the camgear is mounted, it hits the valvecover. Need to find a solution to that still.

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Can you bolt up all of the ancillaries from the right side to the left side, and vice versa? If not, then I would guess that they are not truly reversible, but if so, great find! 

Yeah. If you look at the pics of both heads next to each other, you see comparing pics of all sides of the head. All the boltholes are exactly the same. There is only one difference: one side has a freezeplug, the other side has a ring pressed into that same hole, with a thread in it. Not sure what it is for yet, but the size of the hole where the plug and ring are pressed into, is the same. So just find yourself a ring with a thread-hole in it, and voila.

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Either way, PTs are dirt cheap this side of the pond, so even if only one head works, it is still worth it. 

Bouth the engine for 300 euro, so guessing about 400 USD. Not too spendy, but it's always better to get a spare extra for the same price. Plus, other people who are doing the same thing, and don't know both heads are the same, might just wanna toss the left side head.









_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_On a semi-unrelated note, I have heard of people tapping coolant/oil passages for -AN fittings on both the head and the block (I saw it done in Hot Rod magazine, in order to run Boss 429 heads on a Ford 460 Block, it worked fine for them), and if you did that, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating/under oiling the engine. 

You got a link to a thread in whitch these are used, or a site where they are sold? Always worth givin it a try. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_With regards to the V8 cams (when used in a V8), the pecking order is 4.2>3.6 5-speed>3.6 auto. 

Since the bore-spacing of the 4.2 and 3.6 are different, I'm guessing the cams are also different, including different cam bearings. So don't think those are interchangeble. Not sure though. I'm using racing cams anyway, so for me it won't really matter in the end.

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_I was also wondering, do the heads have the superior angle that you hypothesized, or is it the same angle as a normal 16v head? 

Yeah, they do. Already contacted a German tuner about this, who had the same head on a 4-cilinder bottom end, and he confirmed what I thought already.
There should be some pics of the KR and PT intakeports a few posts back showing the difference too.

_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_Hey, and one more thing, I think that the pipe coming out of the valve cover is probably the breather, which you might want to just re route, as excessive pressure in the valve cover is not good.


Not sure anymore from the top of my head, but the KR doesn't have the ventilation on the valve cover either, believe it has it somewhere else. The pipe on the PT valve cover is the breather, just wasn't sure how it was called in English. There should be a solution for it somehow, just wanted to determine wether or not it would be possible to run the standard KR and PL manifold.
Thanks for the info. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

if the audi cams are not good for our 4 cyl aplication on the vw block.
how about measuring the specifications on them and comparing them to the vw cams? either stock; tt; exhaust cam mod and so on.
if the haed is supposed to be beter flowing; then; does it make sense to think that the specs on the cams( although different firing order) are going to be different and better ones also? maybe we can learn those specs and use them to have new cams ground?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_if the audi cams are not good for our 4 cyl aplication on the vw block.
how about measuring the specifications on them and comparing them to the vw cams? either stock; tt; exhaust cam mod and so on.
if the haed is supposed to be beter flowing; then; does it make sense to think that the specs on the cams( although different firing order) are going to be different and better ones also? maybe we can learn those specs and use them to have new cams ground?


Will try and measure 'em if some one can explain to me how to do it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

lots of good info here, thanks for posting it


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_lots of good info here, thanks for posting it









You're welcome!
There'll be more as soon as there's some cash again, so stay tuned!


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## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

For those curious about how Hot Rod magazine solved the oiling problems: http://www.hotrod.com/featured....html


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (franque)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_For those curious about how Hot Rod magazine solved the oiling problems: http://www.hotrod.com/featured....html

Don't think this much work will be needed, since not all oil-ports need to be welded shut. But it's nice to know there are other options, even the pros use.
The oil-gallery-openings in the cilinder in that article though, are not welded shut. They just mount the head to the bottom end, gasket in between them, and the "problem" is solved.
Really having second thoughts about welding shut the oil-ports in the head now...


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i thought that is what i first wrote when the misaligment of head and block oil gallerues first came up.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i am working out a deal with a high performance engine builder in the toronto area to flow test the audi head so we can compare to the vw head...
will have some more news next week


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_i thought that is what i first wrote when the misaligment of head and block oil gallerues first came up.










You did.







But I didn't see anything in that really, still not sure about it. But the welding will put so much strain on the head it might damage it. I know that's the most perfect solution, but also the most tricky one... the gasket will be the least professional option I guess, but it's easy and will prolly work just as well...


_Quote, originally posted by *ellocolindo* »_i am working out a deal with a high performance engine builder in the toronto area to flow test the audi head so we can compare to the vw head...
will have some more news next week

That'd be super-sweet! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif



_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 1:44 PM 4-9-2010_


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Just got the link to this thread from VW Pat:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1674618
Not sure if it was mentioned already in this thread before or not, but to make sure I'll just (re-)post it.
A 20v head is having it's oil-ports shut using plugs. Iirc 7 holes need to be shut on the V8 head, 6 of them are round and can be shut using these plugs. Only one hole would have to be welded. This'll cause much less strain on the head than having all 7 holes welded shut.
If anyone has any info on these plugs and were to find them, please lemme know. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (Breadfan5968)*

Another helpfull link from VWpat ( http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...15725 ) for shutting the round holes in the head that don't line up with any of the holes in the bottom end: 
http://www.mcmaster.com/param/...45763











_Modified by Breadfan5968 at 2:56 PM 4-11-2010_


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## Cushy (Oct 16, 2008)

updates?


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

sorry ; i have put the aba 16v audi head turbo build on the back burner. 
i am gettinmg a 81 audi 5000 turbo with a rebuilt tranny for the wife for like 200 dollars and a 84 audi 5000 5 spds quattro with a 10v turbo for like 300 dollars. also i get a 20v turbo audi engine for an extra 900 dollars with all new parts to rebuild iot and drop it into the 84 5000 quattro.
that set-uop is supposed to be good for around 250 hp and some tunning and i can get 300 to 320 hp on a stock block and very reliable.
a lot quicker and more reliable that the audi vw turbo set-up.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: (veefreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veefreek* »_updates? 

Yeah... had some probs with the misses, and now she's gone.
A lil time no building, but more spare-cash every month from now one. Bishes are x-pensive!








Still need to go pick up the ACE engine. The KR head is sold and is going in the mail tommorrow, so no more testfitting with that. Still have the cams though, if I happen to need them some time.


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## Sn00pyb0ttz (Jun 14, 2010)

It seems to me that VW used the same casting of the 16V head for the Audi V8 head just more oiling and cooling drains. The castings look almost identical. Any updates


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

It's been a long time, but finally a (be it small) update.

Since the last update, I picked up the ACE engine, and fitted the V8 to it. Just like with the V8 on the KR block, some of the coolant and oil drains don't line up with this config.

Also, one of the two pins that center the head on the underblock is different. This will most likely be machined off, and a new hole will be drilled to put a centering pin in the right spot.

Furthermore... the ACE engine was missing everything but the block, lol, so I started throwing in the KR parts. Most of them are a direct fit. Even the crank fits, but will prolly be useless since the stroke is different. The other parts do fit, so this will make searching for new parts a whole lot easier.

So now I know it fits, I can really start building (after the daily is up and running again). Glad I was able to find a stripped underblock, so I save money on parts like obsolete rods and pistons and such.

I know there are a few people out there that are (trying to) build(ing) a similar engine. If you are or know of, then please post all info that can be of any use here. :thumbup:


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

I haz a pictar for you! 

The red part marks the part of the head that is too big for the bottom. Dunno if that sentence makes any sense at all, but you get the idea when looking at the pic.










The two round holes at the far left and right bottom, and the oval hole at the right bottom need to be welded shut, since they stick out outside the bottoms mounting surface.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

A bunch of great info on cranks. Also putting this link here as a note to self. 

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206029

Will prolly be needing this, since the ACE did not come with a crank, and I need to see if the KR crank can be used for mock up, or if I need to find another crank.


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## kda33 (Jan 27, 2005)

Oh my more ideas to ponder on


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Pics of a V8 head on a KR engine.


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## Nielzz (Sep 10, 2010)

mm.. interesting topic..

I've also got an V8 head for my ABF

found out that the KR head has 5mm bigger intakeports than the V8..

@breadfan6958: If you got an solution for the camgear please let me know! (btw ook nederlands?  )


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

that area you are measuring; is it not for the injector tip to sit in that area?
if so that does not necessarly mean a bigger volum of air can go down the pipe.
sice the runners all the way from the back side of the TB plate could be the same cross section size.


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## Nielzz (Sep 10, 2010)

the section for the injector are the same.. the different is in the section underneath that


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Frechem: Nice pics! You have any specs of or a thread on that car?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

ellocolindo said:


> that area you are measuring; is it not for the injector tip to sit in that area?
> if so that does not necessarly mean a bigger volum of air can go down the pipe.
> sice the runners all the way from the back side of the TB plate could be the same cross section size.


The injector hole will be welded shut anyways, so that doesn't matter. And the part that the KR seems to be bigger, can be machined out so it's at least as big. There seems to be more than enough material to do so. :thumbup:

When using ITB's the injector will be placed in the TB-housing or intake manifold higher up.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Nielzz: Thanks for the pics! Didn't even come to mind to measure it up yet. 

There seems to be more than enough metal to be machined away to make the holes at least just as big as with the KR head though. :thumbup:

With the slightly wider head, the angle of the ports should be a little better on the PT head though. 

And yes, I'm Dutch too. 
Where are you from? Belgium or Holland? Volksforum-member as well? :beer:


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Breadfan5968 said:


> Frechem: Nice pics! You have any specs of or a thread on that car?


This is all I have, http://www.boost4fun.de/?site=74


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

frechem said:


> This is all I have, http://www.boost4fun.de/?site=74


Doh! :banghead:

As soon as I saw the link to the site I knew I had been there once already. The link should be some where back in this thread as well. But still, it's proof that it can be done, and we seem to need that every now and then to not make us just give up the build, so it's cool to have it re-posted every few pages. :laugh:


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

nice link; now if it could only be translated:laugh:


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## Nielzz (Sep 10, 2010)

Breadfan5968 said:


> Nielzz: Thanks for the pics! Didn't even come to mind to measure it up yet.
> 
> There seems to be more than enough metal to be machined away to make the holes at least just as big as with the KR head though. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


I'm from Holland. I've a Volksforum account. But dont post there.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

ellocolindo said:


> nice link; now if it could only be translated:laugh:



No prob. 

Motor:
1,8ltr. 16V 230 PS / 7750 U/min

*Engine:
1.8ltr. 16v 230 HP / 7750 Rpm*

Einspritzung: 
KMS mit Einzeldrosselklappen

*Injection:
KMS (Kronenburg Management Systems) with ITB's*

Getriebe: 
Golf 2 mit Sperre

*Transmission:
Golf 2 with lock*

Auspuffanlage: 
Bastuck/Eigenbau mit 100 Zeller

*Exhaust:
Custom bastuck with 100 Zeller (means a High flow kat.)*

Bremse vorn: 
Corrado G60 280x22mm

*Front brakes:
Corrado G60 280x22mm*

Bremse hinten: 
Corrado G60

*Rear brakes:
Corrado G60*

Gewindefahrwerk: 
Sachs m. ext. Ausgleichsbehältern

*Coilovers:
Sachs with external reservoirs*

Rad/Reifen Kombi:
9x17 mit 235/610R17 Slicks

*Wheels and tires:
9x17" with 235/610R17 Slicks (the 610 seems a little weird, but that's how most (if not all) slicks / track-tires are measured)*

Gewicht:
ca. 920kg

*Weight:
Aprox. 920kg*


Neuer Motor:

- 1877 ccm
- Wössner Schmiedekolben 
- Verdichtung 12,3:1
- Stahlpleul
- Zylinderkopf Audi V8
- Injectoren 440ccm


New engine:

- 1877 ccm
- Wössner forged pistons
- Compression ratio 10.3:1
- Steel rods
- Audi V8 head
- 440 ccm injectors


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

niciformation; thanks .
now how much money do i have to put on the head work to atain around 230 hp BUT with a turbo and cis injection?
any idea on money or time with plenty of elbow grease on the porting and polishing?


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

I was thinking that the left head would put the exhaust on the front side of the motor is this wrong, just got done reading the whole thing now im not sure.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

raguturbo said:


> I was thinking that the left head would put the exhaust on the front side of the motor is this wrong, just got done reading the whole thing now im not sure.


 Thought so too, ubtill I started taking the V8 engine apart. 

I first fitted the right side head to the bottom, and it fitted like a glove... sortof.  
Only problem was that the valvecover had no breather, so I tried fitting the left side head's valvecover, and it was a perfect fit. 

After that I tried fitting other parts, and found out that the head was basicly exactly the same, it just had its parts mounted in the opposite direction. After taking them out, turning them around and re-installing them I ended up with two exactly the same heads. There should be some pics of the two heads next to each other somewhere in this thread too. :thumbup: 

Are you building a similar engine? Or just curious for new info?


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

now i want to go out and buy another head just to get the valve cover for it.


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

> Are you building a similar engine? Or just curious for new info?


 I have been collecting parts for far to long now, but one day putting a 16v in my corrado. So both heads sit on the block with the intake facing the front.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

raguturbo said:


> I have been collecting parts for far to long now, but one day putting a 16v in my corrado. So both heads sit on the block with the intake facing the front.


 Both sides should do just fine, yeah. Check out this post I made a few pages earlier: 



Breadfan5968 said:


> After this, I wondered wether or not the valvecover of the left side head would fit the right side. Wanted to check, cause the oil-refill cap is on the left side cover. The right side has non.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Only difference I could find was that one head had a 1 stamped on it, the other has a 2, but I'm guessing this is more of a mark for assembly of the engine in the factory than anything else. 

When all the removable parts are removed, you end up with two exactly the same heads. :thumbup:


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

ellocolindo said:


> now i want to go out and buy another head just to get the valve cover for it.


 If you're wanting to use it with the stock intake manifold I'm gonna have to disappoint you. That won't fit. The breather-pipe and the intake hit each other.  

But with ITB's it'll work like a charm, and that's just what I'm using.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

raguturbo said:


> I have been collecting parts for far to long now, but one day putting a 16v in my corrado. So both heads sit on the block with the intake facing the front.


 By the way, could I ask what exactly you're collecting and building?


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

turbo 16v aba 
aba block, tdi crank, 9a pistons, 9a head(unless i go with the pt head), t3t4, turbonetics cast log mani, tial wastegate, megasquirt, mustang throttle body, 630 injectors,lc-1.... about 95% of parts needed for th e build. its one of those projects that always ends up on the back burner


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i was not thinking of ITBs ; but it looks like if i want to make full use of the pt head i have to go that way. 
any ideas or explanations as to what it involves using ITBs? or links to threads?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

raguturbo said:


> turbo 16v aba
> aba block, tdi crank, 9a pistons, 9a head(unless i go with the pt head), t3t4, turbonetics cast log mani, tial wastegate, megasquirt, mustang throttle body, 630 injectors,lc-1.... about 95% of parts needed for th e build. its one of those projects that always ends up on the back burner


 Nice! 
That's gonne be a hell of an engine! 
FWD? Or going AWD?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

ellocolindo said:


> i was not thinking of ITBs ; but it looks like if i want to make full use of the pt head i have to go that way.
> any ideas or explanations as to what it involves using ITBs? or links to threads?


 Not much really. 
The main things you need are a custom intake, engine management, and ofcourse the ITB's including fuelrail and injectors and such. 

If you're building an engine like this, you beter find a way to get those cilinders filled the best way possible. So either with one huge throttle body (turboed) or with a few smaller ITB's. Using the stock TB makes all the work and money you throw in that engine a waste.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

so if i go with regulr intake; like the 38 mm i belive on the passat and a buterfklie style Tb and turbo; i am choking the engine? 
what kind or car has a TB that will alllow me to breathe with the turbo and maybe 50 mm intake?


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## raguturbo (May 19, 2004)

Fwd, but the way my projects go who knows what ill be thinking when I finally get to it.


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## Nielzz (Sep 10, 2010)

:laugh:


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Nielzz said:


> :laugh:



That yours?


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## Nielzz (Sep 10, 2010)

Breadfan5968 said:


> That yours?


Yes, last week somebody closed the coolant-holes for me. He was supprised that is was that easy to weld it.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Nielzz said:


> Yes, last week somebody closed the coolant-holes for me. He was supprised that is was that easy to weld it.


 Did you already check the head for warping? Welding it isn't that much of a problem. But doing the welding without deforming the head is...


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i was thinking the same today at work.


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## Nielzz (Sep 10, 2010)

Breadfan5968 said:


> Did you already check the head for warping? Welding it isn't that much of a problem. But doing the welding without deforming the head is...


 Nope it is still flatt. He first heated the complete head a bit and put some copper in the nearest hol to absorb the highest temperaturs when welding


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Nielzz said:


> Nope it is still flatt. He first heated the complete head a bit and put some copper in the nearest hol to absorb the highest temperaturs when welding


 Nice. :thumbup: 

Could you IM me about who did this for you and where? 
It could be put in this thread, but since most readers are UK or US, it's kinda useless to put a local welder in here.


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

So here are some pics. 

The first picture shows one inner and one outer combustionchamber of the 3.6. Notice how perfectly the sparkplug and valves are centered in the chambers, and how symetrical both chambers are to each other: 










This is a similar picture of a 4.2 head. Look at the left chamber, it's one of the two inner cilinders of this side of the engine. The sparkplug and valves are slightly off-center. The chamber on the right is from an outer cilinder. Notice how much the sparkplug and valves are off center. You can clearly see the valves touching the left side of the right chamber, and the space between the valves and chamber-edge on the right side of the right chamber. 










Here's a close up of the inner cilinder's chamber. The valves and sparkplug are slightly off center, shifted to the left (inside): 










And a picture of the outer cilinder's chamber, with clearly visible off centered valves and plug. The valves on the left almost hit the chambers edge. The ones on the right are several mm's away from the edge of the chamber: 










This proves what I already thought. Audi used a 3.6 bottom end and head to make the 4.2 engine. They just drilled bigger cilinders at an offset, and overworked the casting of the head so that the combustionchambers "fit" the cilinders. The chambers have a bit of an edge though, that's still visible when it's mounted on the bottom and you look through the cilinders from below. 

If you could find an unbored 1.8 or 2.0 bottom, you could easily bore this to an 85mm bore with a bore-spacing of 90.5mm, just like Audi did with the 4.2 (they gave the 4.2 a bore of 84.5, but you get the idea).


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

just finished reading this thread, its pretty cool! any news?


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

i hate to double post, but what happened to this?


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

simon_C said:


> just finished reading this thread, its pretty cool! any news?


Not much really. 

Did some test-fitting with a 4.2 head, and turned out that was doable when sleeving the bottom and using different bore-spacing when doing so.

Also had a talk with a German guy who I read used the 4.2 head. Turned out it was just a typo in the article about him and his car, and he told me he used the 3.6 PT head as well.

So that's what I'm going with now too. Not really wanting to go through all the trouble of fitting the 4.2 head for one mm extra bore when I can get the same, only safer, with sleeves.

Hope I can update a little more in Jan. when the funds allow it. I'm kinda broke right now. :laugh:


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

Breadfan5968 said:


> Hope I can update a little more in Jan. when the funds allow it. I'm kinda broke right now. :laugh:


yeah, tell me about. i know how that goes. havent got a cent and im trying to keep my cabby on the road


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

i have to ask what is the point to all of this? i haven't seen any hard evidence that the PT head can out flow a standard 16v head or come close to a big port 20v head. i would think the best efforts would be to use the 2.0 FSI head as it is the best flowing 4cyl VW head to date. i'm not bashing on you guys im just curious why this is being done


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

hyperformancevw said:


> i have to ask what is the point to all of this? i haven't seen any hard evidence that the PT head can out flow a standard 16v head or come close to a big port 20v head. i would think the best efforts would be to use the 2.0 FSI head as it is the best flowing 4cyl VW head to date. i'm not bashing on you guys im just curious why this is being done


it was the same head used on the audi touring cars back in the day. it is cheap to come across. and its different


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

so i take it that you did not bother to read the link to the europian webpage? there; there is plenty of insight as to why we are toying with the pt/9a or pt/ 3b idea....


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

simon_C said:


> it was the same head used on the audi touring cars back in the day.


Exactly. I guess there must be some advantage to using this head, and if not, it doesn't seem to be anything worse than the stock heads. So not much to lose, besides some cash. 




simon_C said:


> it is cheap to come across. and its different


The cheap-part didn't exactly work for me. I had to buy an entire V8 engine just to get one head. :laugh: For the cash I"ve spent already on the V8, KR and ACE I could've bought a perfectly fine 2.0 16v already. 

But the most important part to me is that it's different.

Everyone with enough money can throw a 20VT in a mk2. Don't wanna bring any mk2 20VT driver down or anything, I'd love to have one of those, but to me personally it's way cooler to pop the hood and have people thinking "what the **** is that engine from?" instead of "oh nice, 20VT...".

So, we're building a 2.2 16v out of a KR or ACE bottom, and an Audi V8 32V head, with throttle bodies hoping to see people actually go "WTF!" when showing the engine. :vampire:


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

Breadfan5968 said:


> Exactly. I guess there must be some advantage to using this head, and if not, it doesn't seem to be anything worse than the stock heads. So not much to lose, besides some cash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 yeah. pretty much as i see it. my friend and i each have cabriolets, and we were gonna split on a blown audi v8 and a pair of 9a 16vs, do the head swaps, sell the spare parts, and swap the hybrid engines in our cars. he is probably going MS on ITBs and ill probably go bike carbs, that is if i dont get the urge to turbo it first.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

simon; that sounds like a plan.... 

both are going to be built at the same time or one first so the second one can gain from the experiences with the first one?


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

ellocolindo said:


> simon; that sounds like a plan....
> 
> both are going to be built at the same time or one first so the second one can gain from the experiences with the first one?


 one at a time so we have a car to drive :laugh:


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## simon_C (Oct 5, 2006)

hey man, sorry to exhume this, but did anything ever come of this?


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## dogzila22 (Apr 1, 2008)

Breadfan5968 said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *franque* »_I think that the heads are the same, ACE wise versus 9A/6A/KR/PL/ABF. By the way, yes, 3.6s are all the same. THe 3.7, however, will not work, as it uses 4.2 bore spacing.
> 
> I know the mk3 2.0 16v head has a terrible head, cause it's power would get too close to the VR's power. Since the VR cost about thirteen gazillion bucks and a half, and the 16v only cost a button and a chewed piece o gum, no one would've bought the VR.
> So, VW decided to give the 16v a rubbish head, to keep the ponies asleep.
> ...


ACE and mk3 16v head is the same check ETKA:banghead:


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## BOROKO (Aug 19, 2017)

I fully realize that this thread is old, but I'm in the process of doing this and would love to find if anyone still has any of the pictures? I will proceed and probably discover the same things discussed here as I go through it, but it would be nice to see the pictures too. 
Thanks
bo


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## BOROKO (Aug 19, 2017)

Is there anyone here that has actually experience using an Audi PT cam in a VW 16v application? The VW cam is shorter than the PT cam on the pulley end and I am working thorough the best way to adapt a pulley to the cam. I have a few ideas, and if I hear nothing, I will proceed. Just asking before I reinvent the wheel. In case anyone is curious why I'm going through the effort, I have 4 PT heads and would like to figure out how to use them instead of sourcing another. Also, I'm in the States, and getting a ABF head is harder here. 
Thanks
bo


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## dogzila22 (Apr 1, 2008)

BOROKO said:


> Is there anyone here that has actually experience using an Audi PT cam in a VW 16v application? The VW cam is shorter than the PT cam on the pulley end and I am working thorough the best way to adapt a pulley to the cam. I have a few ideas, and if I hear nothing, I will proceed. Just asking before I reinvent the wheel. In case anyone is curious why I'm going through the effort, I have 4 PT heads and would like to figure out how to use them instead of sourcing another. Also, I'm in the States, and getting a ABF head is harder here.
> Thanks
> bo


Is V8 firing order the same as 4 cyl? if no, cam can't work


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## BOROKO (Aug 19, 2017)

Cams definitely won't work. Also, some of the coolant and oil returns are different, and needed to be welded. The cam seal is configured a bit differently because the difference in length of a PT cam. To work within the confines of the 16v pulley, it also is going to take a bit of machining. Bottom line, unless you are really crafty, or want want to spend some money getting others to do the mods, a regular 16v head is far easier. In my case, I have the heads, and tools to change them, so I'm giving it a try.


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