# Bose without Nav in A3?



## r32nj (Aug 26, 2007)

Is the sound quality the same with the Bose system in a non-NAV A3 as compared to a A3 with NAV & Bose?

I have not seen an A3 without NAV yet but I am planning to buy one that way (with the Convenience Package) but want to get a sense of the sound quality differences if there are any.


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## yohoitztho (Jul 27, 2008)

i had the bose w/o nav and it was horrible.
i listened to the radio a lot and the sound quality can't compare now that i upgraded to the nav.

if you use a CD/AUX input with the concert II you'll get much better sound out of the bose speakers. otherwise, get the nav. night and day difference

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2


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## KiltedCasper (Oct 21, 2011)

I noticed absolutely no difference between the two. Car came with Bose and the Symphony II+, upgraded to a 2010 RNS-E. The sound quality largely comes down to the input. No difference in radio or AUX plug quality, but the added use of the SD cards is definitely a plus.


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## daniel.ramirez (Nov 24, 2001)

The Symphony non-Bose on a 08 sounded way much better that the Symphony with Bose on my 09, bass was weak, until I upgraded to the RNS-E + a Bazooka I always preferred the 08 with no Bose.

My advice, don't get the Bose, save some money; even better, take a CD with music you really like and know and go to a dealership, try it on different cards, then listen to your ears. :thumbup:


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## rebelxtnut (Aug 7, 2011)

Get the non bose and spend the extra money on some nice component speakers and a sub/box/amp. 

The bose speakers themselves sound okay for factory, its decent but the system lacks bass. I added a 12 in a sealed box with a 350w amp and it sounds fantastic. Gonna swap out the door 6.5's and the tweeters for some Polks down the road.


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## r32nj (Aug 26, 2007)

I used to be into car stereo gear when I was younger but these days I have stuck with stock on my cars as I don't know who I would trust to start digging around in a $30K+ car. I used to do my own installs back when cars were not as electronically complicated as they are now.

My nicest (crazy really) rig was a Ford Escort with 10 speakers, three amplifiers, parametric eq, etc back in the late 80's.

All the A3's at the dealer have NAV installed. I don't want to spend $2K on NAV (don't have it in my R32 either for basically the same reason). I would rather put the $2K towards an Exclusive color instead. But I don't want to wreck the sound of the stereo.

So I guess there are actually more decisions regarding audio that I didn't think of in my earlier post. Can anyone give some comparisons of all these choices?

* no-nav, no bose
* no nav, with bose (this is the one I am mostly interested in)
* nav, no bose
* nav, with bose


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Bose. _"Better sound through marketing"_

Blatantly
Over-rated
Sound
Equipment.

You'll never see ANY Bose equipment in a professional recording studio control room... that says a lot.

I've heard A3's with and without, with Nav and with Concert 2+.

Mildly increased power handling with the Bose, but a more 'processed' and offensive sound. If you want decibels over quality... sure, why not. -Without has a marginally more 'natural' sound, to me. Again, I fond this to be true of both RNS-E and Concert 2+ equipped vehicles.

Other people's opinion may differ, but those are my observations.


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## TBomb (Sep 23, 2009)

Nav or not, I don't think it really matters. I wouldn't get the nav just for hoping that it will have better sound quality. I'd spend that money on speaker, amp, and processor upgrades first. If you want a good sounding system, make a harness to tap into the line level outputs at the head unit. Run that signal to an Audison Bit Ten processor, then to two amps. 

Amp one would be a class D 4 channel amp (JL XD 400/4 for me) running a good set of components fully active. Hybrid Audio Imagines are a great bang for your buck. Make some baffles out of MDF and coat them in something to make them waterproof, and install some 6.5"s in the front doors, put the tweeters in the a-pillar. Run new speaker wires from your amp to the front speakers. Unhook all of the other stock speakers, including the center channel speaker in the dash. Remove the stock sub and amps while you're at it. I'd mount the new amps and processor on a MDF board where the stock sub was.

Amp two would be a single channel class D powering your sub. I'd go with a JL XD 600/1 powering a JL 10W3 4 ohm in a Wicked CAS box.

Set up your Audison and you will be rocking a sweet system for under $2000 and the work is easy to do yourself if you take your time and do your research beforehand as far as what's involved in running the wires, removing panels, etc.


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## r32nj (Aug 26, 2007)

Tbomb - while I appreciate your suggestion (and it sounds like it would make a nice system) I just have the time or patience to do this type of thing myself anymore. This is why I am trying to figure out what the best stock package would be. Perhaps I will decide to add on to the stock system at some point but I would NEVER expect to change the head unit later.

On a side note - does anyone know what it might cost to have the auto dimming mirror installed if I don't get the convenience package? I don't need the parking sensors so it would be the mirror + Bose that interests me.


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## mike3141 (Feb 16, 1999)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...in-a-US-spec-GTI-(pictures!)&highlight=mirror


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## t_white (Jun 10, 2006)

I dont ever really listen to the radio, but it does sound weak. With my aux setup, the ipod sounds great though.


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## KiltedCasper (Oct 21, 2011)

One thing to note for those that do have Bose and the RNS-E - I agree that the bass is a bit weak, but this can be 'fixed' by pulling the Bose pin out of the wiring harness on the back of the unit.

The Bose pin is just a ground wire. Once grounded, the head unit shuts off it's internal amplifier and just ouputs a low-level signal to let the Bose system amplify as necessary.

If both the internal amp and the Bose one are running, then you have more finite control with the treble and bass on the head unit (essentially doubling up). The stereo will go much louder, with a boatload more bass.

When I first swapped for the RNS, I didn't pull the pin (didn't know about it). Found it way louder, and could only have the bass control up half way or else it was too much. Ditto for volume. The only thing I noticed was a slight decrease in overall quality. Depends if you want more volume and bass, or slightly better quality.

I can't speak for the long term effects (if any) with running an amplified signal over a line out to the Bose amp, though.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

Nonsense on the technical explanation.

The amplified signal appears on SEPARATE pins.

Also, there's no 'doubling-up'.

The pin also initiates a separate preset equalization curve, THAT's the difference you're hearing. -Just like Bose 802's should be run with a preset EQ curve, because their acoustic response is so far from flat.


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## KiltedCasper (Oct 21, 2011)

The individual speaker signal output wiring is the same between Bose and non-Bose units, indicating that the only difference between them is the signal being fed to them. Neither the RNS nor the S2+ has individual amplified and pre-amp outputs.

The fact that the treble/bass/volume increases greatly, while a noticable sound quality decrease is noted with the Bose pin pulled clearly indicates that an amplified signal is being fed to an external amplifier's line-in inputs. I was being overly simplistic when referring to it as 'doubling up'.

While there are different default EQ outputs between Bose and non-Bose systems, this is done via coding, which can be modified via VagCom - the single ground pin doesn't activate this as the CAN Bus contains the ability for multiple presets, stored in the head unit itself, depending on vehicle installation.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

KiltedCasper said:


> The individual speaker signal output wiring is the same between Bose and non-Bose units, indicating that the only difference between them is the signal being fed to them. Neither the RNS nor the S2+ has individual amplified and pre-amp outputs.


Read my lips.

No.

Let's look, shall we?










Front left *loudspeaker* outputs are on pins A3 (+) & A7 (-), Front right is on pins A2 (+) & A6(-). Differentially amplified ("Bridged").

Front left *line* output is on pin C3 (+), Front right is on pin C9 (+). Asymmetric ('unbalanced') signal, ground reference on pin C8.

Enabling 'Bose mode' disables the front loudspeaker outputs, line-level outputs remain active whether 'Bose mode' is enabled or not. -In addition, enabling 'Bose Mode' also preselects a preset equalization curve.

Trust me on this... I know some stuff.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

KiltedCasper said:


> The individual speaker signal output wiring is the same between Bose and non-Bose units...


I forgot to add... This part is also quite wrong.

Bose unit speakers are wired from the amplifier module in the trunk. Non-Bose units are wired from the head unit.

If you have a Bose system, you can check this for yourself.


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## TBomb (Sep 23, 2009)

VWAddict said:


> Read my lips.
> 
> No.


Owned. And Keef is right, the Bose system uses the line level output to its external amplifiers for both the fronts, rears, and sub. The non-Bose system powers the front speakers off the internal amplifier in the head unit, and uses the line level output to an amp inside the sub, which powers the rear speakers along with the sub.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

VWAddict said:


> Enabling 'Bose mode' disables the front loudspeaker outputs, line-level outputs remain active whether 'Bose mode' is enabled or not. -In addition, enabling 'Bose Mode' also preselects a preset equalization curve.
> 
> Trust me on this... I know some stuff.


then disabling blowze will allow the doubling up via speaker and line out, thus allowing you to have 6 channels of output. this way the nav lady could sound louder.

And where are the speaker out pins for the center channel? Are they feeding the left front speaker hot connector on one center chan terminal and the right front hot for the other terminal? And once blowze is enabled, does the external amp's do some summing in the electrionics via (L+R)/X and L-(R/X) for the left and R-(L/X) for the right.. or thru some proprietary blowze steering mechanism? Or is the center channel derived by the same method as the non blowze setup?


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

I believe that the front is all derived. -It's not as clever as Soundfield waveform-edge-synthesis technology sadly, but I don't think it's too awful either way... however, I present that as an opinion, and not a fact.

Given that there's glass everywhere, seats, steering wheels and other obstructions, I find the pursuit of some sonic 'ideal' inside a car *amusing* at best. -Throwing lots of money at it seems just insane.

I'll say this. -The Navigation gets me places, shows me who is calling/call-waiting, shows me what's on other radio stations nearby, allows me to hook in the iPod (and charge it!) as well as use the external aux input socket, and plays music at sensible levels. -It goes loud enough -even at stock levels with no Bose- to 'sting' my hearing to the point that I'd be useless for making any sonic judgments afterwards, so any 'boost' would be utterly pointless for my purposes.

The last paragraph is 100% fact. other stuff I've posted is opinion. but I'm usually extremely careful about keeping the distinction between the two VERY clear.

On the whole, I like the RNS-E a lot more than the Concert/Symphony 2+, because of the added functionality. -I also find both to be perfectly adequate sonically for my purposes. -I do not find the Bose to be particularly worthwhile sonically, which sadly tends to go along with my feelings towards MOST of their product.

Bose does do an excellent job of packaging things into a small space, and giving the IMPRESSION of 'punching above their weight' (eg: the wave-radio, the acoustimass system, the 802, etc) but they all involve acoustic 'trickery' which makes them useless in terms of sounding 'real'. -They have a very high WAF (Wife-Acceptance-Factor) because they're small. -But they're useless in terms of accuracy, and that's no good whatsoever to me.


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## asal (Oct 12, 2007)

r32nj said:


> I used to be into car stereo gear when I was younger but these days I have stuck with stock on my cars as I don't know who I would trust to start digging around in a $30K+ car. I used to do my own installs back when cars were not as electronically complicated as they are now.
> 
> My nicest (crazy really) rig was a Ford Escort with 10 speakers, three amplifiers, parametric eq, etc back in the late 80's.
> 
> ...


** no nav, no bose, Titanium Package*

Though I don't mind my BOSE system, i wouldn't have cheked the box if i had the time to order one.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

VWAddict said:


> I believe that the front is all derived. -It's not as clever as Soundfield waveform-edge-synthesis technology sadly, but I don't think it's too awful either way... however, I present that as an opinion, and not a fact.
> 
> Given that there's glass everywhere, seats, steering wheels and other obstructions, I find the pursuit of some sonic 'ideal' inside a car *amusing* at best. -Throwing lots of money at it seems just insane.
> 
> ...


I assumed glass everywhere is offset by the knowledge of the location of the listener's head...and the fact it is known that there is glass everywhere. Simpletons like blowze will just EQ those 1st and 2nd reflections out.

Blowze might have been at the forefront in their active EQ to compensate for their poor acoustic design while almost everybody else are fine tuning their passive designs and making it sound good as is. But to get any upper bass out of a 2 in driver is physically impossible, thus their extreme accoustic compromise that fools the casual listners.

As for RNS-E/Symphony 2..I don't hear the drastic sound difference people talk about, espeically with the blowze system that has external amplification. I do recognize the RNS-E's audiopilot is much more intrusive. The symphony 2's operation was almost inperceptible, but I can here the RNS-E's level change when the car is more or less noisy.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

LWNY said:


> I assumed glass everywhere is offset by the knowledge of the location of the listener's head...and the fact it is known that there is glass everywhere. Simpletons like blowze will just EQ those 1st and 2nd reflections out.


Wwell, let's be accurate here.



> will just EQ those 1st and 2nd reflections out.


You _CAN'T_ 'EQ reflections out'. -All you can do is Eq to partially compensate for sum-partial-cancellation and sum-reinforcement. Frequency/amplitude looks better on paper, but ZERO correction has been made in the TIME domain. -you still have awful impulse response, and now all you've done is add phase shift, technically making even THAT worse (though admittedly by a comparatively insignificant amount).

Listener's head position varies significantly. Even a random sampling of 5'10" drivers will show that some are seat-high, seat-low, Laid-back gangsta or nose-against-the-windshield... plus it's amazing how many kids 'slouch' against the door... although even this is splitting hairs... -The glass means that you can't get any sort of RFZ or even reflection-controlled-position in a car, unless it's a convertible with the top and all the windows down...

We're off on a tangent here, but essentially, the car is such a massively 'challenged' place to try and get any sort of decent audio reproduction, that there's really little point in spending too much money doing it. -the low cost and staggering power of DSP and signal analysis systems like SMAART means that most manufacturers are able to tune their systems pretty well, if they want to invest the time to do it... however, most will realize that there's more profit in leaving the base system slightly 'restricted', and charging A LOT more for an 'upgrade' system, with a 'name brand' to make the buyer feel 'validated'.

With this in mind, it would have served Audi MUCH better to have had the standard system sound worse, but in point of fact, some of the BIGGEST challenges are resonances of door card panels etc. and since AUDI isn't going to go the ridiculous expense of making a full set of entry-level and 'premium-line' door cards etc, most of those components stay the same no matter what spec. level you buy.

_On the whole_. both VW and Audi do pretty darned good job of the stock audio spec on cars which they bring into the US. -Over in the UK/Europe they down-spec *A LOT MORE*, and have BNS-5.0 as a step-down from the RNS-E...










...which is LED monochrome, No flip-screen, no SD card, CD instead of DVD, and a much less-impressive proposition.

They also have another down-step from the Symphony/Concert option, in the form of the 'Chorus':










..and many of the cars over there are two-channel only, with NO rear speakers. -I'm not intimately familiar with how the two-versus-four-channel splits out based on 3-door versus 5-door hatch, or Chorus versus Concert/Symphony, but -by comparison to the most BASIC spec car imported to the US- they have some pretty 'famine-spec' models over there! :laugh:

Anyhow, -after all this dry stuff, a suggestion for those who don't think like I do, and want to spand lots of money on upgrades:

If you want to biamp some speakers, and run amps in the trunk, but use existing wiring harnessing wherever possible, perhaps the BOSE option would be better for you, in that it might leave less for you to do in terms of rewiring.

If you just want to replace a head unit and speakers, maybe get the base system, and build it up from there.

If you're like me, just get the base system, and enjoy your music, not too loud, but sounding about as good as or better than most BMW systems I've heard, and certainly VASTLY better than the sound system in my wife's Mercedes, and entire _SOLAR SYSTEMS_ better than the awful system in my Porsche! (which was the 'super-premium' 10-speaker option, no less!) :laugh:


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## beckermanex (Jan 25, 2011)

While I know that it loses the OEM look, I did this which still uses the stock speakers, sub and amp and provides some excellent sound with the built in EQ. Functionality is much higher than the OEM device as well and my steering wheel controls work without any issue (even better before as you can scroll presets with the control wheel now).

To each their own on the look of OEM vs. aftermarket but this provided better sound and excellent functionality which is what I was looking for.

Having had non-Bose in both my TT and the A3, the OEM Blaupunkt speakers seem to be able to drive the sound okay, but going aftermarket for sound options was a good way to go, and cheaper too.


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## r32nj (Aug 26, 2007)

That's quite a clean looking install! Did you do it yourself or have an mobile electronics shop do the work?


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## beckermanex (Jan 25, 2011)

r32nj said:


> That's quite a clean looking install! Did you do it yourself or have an mobile electronics shop do the work?


Did it all myself, it was pretty easy, also installed the XM box you see on the passenger floor in the glovebox and routed a USB cable in there as well to connect iPod and flash drives and there's and SD card slot that supports up to 64GB behind the face. Wiring wasn't bad, only thing you lose is the radio info on the HUD.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

As to the orig question, people swear the sound is so much better with the Nav, although I didn't compare them, I wouldn't say they are that different. The weakest components are still there, like the blowse accoustic mass derived reference standard.



VWAddict said:


> Wwell, let's be accurate here.
> 
> 
> You _CAN'T_ 'EQ reflections out'. -All you can do is Eq to partially compensate for sum-partial-cancellation and sum-reinforcement. Frequency/amplitude looks better on paper, but ZERO correction has been made in the TIME domain. -you still have awful impulse response, and now all you've done is add phase shift, technically making even THAT worse (though admittedly by a comparatively insignificant amount).
> ...


Just trying to simply things. Nobody in the car audio world cares about accurate impulse response or the fact that you can't change a non-minimum phase response into a linear phase response. They likely want to do the blowse thing, which is to make the FR flat. 

The pillar mounted or auto-rising tweeters seems to try to alleviate the head position issue. Controlling their vertical and horizontal dispersion to take into account most of the head positions the driver could be. The rising tweeter's horn could also control the dispersion so off axis dispersion could be stronger, allowing the farther reaching tweeter to balance out the tweeter that is closer to the listener.


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## koocuz (Mar 3, 2012)

I am seeing a whole lot of knowledge here! So, I cant help but ask some questions I am having trouble finding answers to.

I am amazed at the different styles, of wiring and various components of these Audi's. I have a 2006 Audi A3 4dr with the Bose System (No heads up display) but I do have steering wheel controls.

Frankly, I am very disappointed in the Bose system and cannot believe what Audi charged for it. I think it sounds mediocre... It almost seems like the Bass does not get any louder after Vol. 10 and the "cabin noise, adjusting volume feature" is annoying (cant turn it off either).

So, I am on the hunt for something that: 
A. Sounds better 
B. I do not need to use a cassette adapter for an AUX (Seriously Audi/Bose!?)
C. Has Bluetooth
D. Can interface with the steering wheel controls

I am hoping to re-use the Bose speakers and amp and only change the Head Unit.

Can someone help me with options here? I am not sure what decks are compatible with what cars and (bose, non bose systems, ect).

I am also very interested in some aftermarket double din head units that already have every feature on the planet (bluetooth, aux, mp3, nav, ect)

Thanks a bunch!


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## koocuz (Mar 3, 2012)

I thought this thread would be busting with posts! I guess not many folks have done custom stereo's.

From what I have found I will need this harness:
http://enfigcarstereo.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/METRA_70_1787.html

Looks like I will need a dedicated ignition 12V feed (odd since my radio already turns on with the car)

And this special 12V antenna adapter (also not sure why it needs to be powered..)
http://enfigcarstereo.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/40_vw53.html

Looks like I can find a double din bezel but it does not have mounting brackets, from folks that have done this does the radio just rest on something behind the dash or do you need to fabricate a resting bracket?

Steering wheel controls: who knows? I think this time I will leave them disconnected.

I am thinking a double din nav system with Bluetooth but I am concerned about theft and I don't see many with a partial removing faceplate..


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## koocuz (Mar 3, 2012)

Another thing that came to mind, I dont recall the A3 having an "accessory" position for the ignition. The current Bose system can turn on even if there is no key in the ignition with the press of a button. Since there is no ACC I am assuming a separate toggle switch to a hard 12V line is necessary? 

Thanks


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## TBomb (Sep 23, 2009)

koocuz said:


> Another thing that came to mind, I dont recall the A3 having an "accessory" position for the ignition. The current Bose system can turn on even if there is no key in the ignition with the press of a button. Since there is no ACC I am assuming a separate toggle switch to a hard 12V line is necessary?
> 
> Thanks


I had just typed out a big ass detailed response and my effing ipad deleted it all  To summarize:

Keep your OEM head unit and upgrade the speakers/amp, get an iPod/aux input adapter from Enfig, get a Bluetooth kit from Fiscon.


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## koocuz (Mar 3, 2012)

I was really hoping to "update" the head unit just so I have a nice GUI, MP3 support via usb/flash, Navi, DVD, BT, ect.

The thing that is so strange about the bose system is the bass seems to "not increase" past volume 10 so it gets pretty tinny at higher volumes. So, if I have a CD with low gain and turn it up to say 15 it sounds like crap. If I listen to FM where the gain is higher and I usually dont go past volume 10 it sounds great.

As a test I have a high gain cassete adapter (I know right!?) and hook it to my phone, I can blast the music (crazy loud) at volume 10-11 and it sounds great, deep bass. It leads me to beleive it is actually the head unit that is not increasing bass volume past 10. I have a bose wave radio and love it but this system is sad for the amount of $$ charged for it.. They should have teamed up with HK.

Anyways, looks like super nice Pioneer Double din's are around 300 now + the wiring kit I mentioned (another $25) + Bezel and I am hoping I would have a nice "updated" multimedia system that would satisfy me for a while.

The terrible road noise of the A3, I will just have to live with.
The excellent handling & peppyness of the 2.0T, awesome!


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

The reason that you're not getting may responses is possibly that some of us are fed up of typing at length about how any "upgrade" will mean lots of "downgrades" come with it.

The RNS is about as god as you can get. -If you want _"moar powah"_, add power (amps & speakers) and rejoice.

The RNS uses Can Bus to turn on, it integrates STUNNINGLY with the OEM bluetooth. adding ANYTHING else is a hassle, and EVERY SINGLE SO-CALLED "UPGRADE" will lose the CAN BUS data from steering and distance traveled.... Where the RNS will continue to navigate even when there's ZERO SATELLITES available. -In a tunnel, or built up areas like part of Manhatten, or even Central Florida on a stormy day. (yes, really!)

I know lots of people want to be 'individual' and have something "better", but in this case, "better" is actually worse in a quantifiable number of ways.

Summary: Go OEM or be unsupported.


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## koocuz (Mar 3, 2012)

Hmm thanks for the insight I can see this subject is a sort of "black sheep" for the forums. 

My A3 does not have a heads up display, or Bluetooth, or navi.

I am not a crazy music listener and when I crank it up my neighbors do not hear the music. You will see on my last post it is as if my Bose head unit is just "stupid" and has some sort of bass limiter after volume 10, so low gain media sounds like crap. I am not demanding perfection but my accord system sounds better than the Audi.. I have built several custom sound systems in my past but typically on less complicated vehicles where installation was fairly easy.

I think I will pick up the harness and dash kit and give a good aftermarket unit a try. I will report back with the findings. As far as I can tell I will lose steering wheel controls (unless I buy an adapter) but I should gain better sound, Bluetooth, Video Playing, Aux inputs, USB, SD, touch screen and possibly navi (I probably wont need this).

Thanks


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

> The reason that you're not getting may responses is possibly that some of us are fed up of typing at length about how any "upgrade" will mean lots of "downgrades" come with it.
> 
> The RNS is about as god as you can get. -If you want "moar powah", add power (amps & speakers) and rejoice.
> 
> ...


Your post could definitely apply to the Bose system, which the OP is working with here. The reason he's not getting a lot of responses is because most people in here have heard this discussion a million times and don't want to post anything. A lot of us have already done what he wants to do, but are too lazy to post up helpful information and not because we are too lazy to "type at length about how any "upgrade" will mean lots of "downgrades" come with it". This includes me generally. I have done and recommended integration solutions for aftermarket NAV, regular single DIN HU's, feature additions (Bluetooth, iPod integration, etc.), and installations in a variety of European vehicles including VW, Audi, Land Rover, and Porsche's with and without "premium audio". The first sentence is definitely bull****. You don't have to sacrifice ALL features when you upgrade or integrate if you use the right components. The RNS-e is only good if it's the second gen with the MMI capabilities. Previous to that, they are inferior to aftermarket HU's and still more expensive. For about $1000 less, you can get 95% of the features out of an aftermarket HU that you could get out of a second gen RNS-E. If you want aesthetics, there is no argument, RNS-e is pretty much the only way to go, but you will search long and hard and pay hefty for it. The only features I am missing are the audio information display in my DIS and the ability to turn on my radio when the key isn't in the ignition. That's it. Everything else from my AVIC Z120BT works as factory and sounds great because I don't have Bose (on purpose) and I added a sub.



> Another thing that came to mind, I dont recall the A3 having an "accessory" position for the ignition. The current Bose system can turn on even if there is no key in the ignition with the press of a button. Since there is no ACC I am assuming a separate toggle switch to a hard 12V line is necessary?


Yes, the A3 does have an accessory position. There is a builtin function for the stock HU's in the CANBUS that allows them to turn off and on without the key being turned to ACC. This feature is in most German cars in general (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, etc) and isn't a "premium audio" (Bose, Harmon Kardon, B&O, etc) feature. My stock sound system with the stock HU was able to do this. And, yes, the A3 does have both a switched 12V and a constant 12V.



> You will see on my last post it is as if my Bose head unit is just "stupid" and has some sort of bass limiter after volume 10, so low gain media sounds like crap.


The bottom line is this. Bose with any sort of aftermarket HU or amplification just sounds like ****. You really are better off leaving it alone or gutting the whole system and starting over. As for the reason for your quoted post above, read LWNY's post. That is the reason you turn up the volume and the bass fades out with Bose systems. It's to, supposedly, prevent distortion. Rather they are EQing out the shortcomings of their ****ty components. I would agree with most people in here and say you should just get a 2010 MY+ RNS-e and call it good. However, seems you are bent on going down this path so let me give you some serious advice that will help you. Forget everything you've research on harnesses, etc. You need to call Christian at enfig Car Stereo, tell him what you want to do, and he will help you get the proper harness that will utilize the CANBUS and make everything work the way it should. They will custom make you a harness for about $150 (totally worth the money) that will be plug and play for a Pioneer AVIC unit. The Connects2 integrated harnesses he sells work. I have used them in 5 vehicles including two Audi's of my own. He will also be able to get you a dash kit that matches the vehicle.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

davis_449 said:


> I have done and recommended integration solutions for aftermarket NAV, regular single DIN HU's, feature additions (Bluetooth, iPod integration, etc.), and installations in a variety of European vehicles including VW, Audi, Land Rover, and Porsche's with and without "premium audio". The first sentence is definitely bull****.


About your experience installing stuff in German cars: excellent. Not wishing to sound in any way condescending, but good for you.

About the first sentence being bull****: Reasonable people may differ. 



davis_449 said:


> You don't have to sacrifice ALL features when you upgrade or integrate if you use the right components.


Very possibly not ALL, but you certainly lose a lot, and then have to spend money correcting or adapting for what you lose... -I mean, just the fact that it doesn't power of when you remove thekey is irritation point number one!



davis_449 said:


> The RNS-e is only good if it's the second gen with the MMI capabilities. Previous to that, they are inferior to aftermarket HU's and still more expensive.


Again reasonable people may differ. I have not seen a SINGLE aftermarket installation which offers EVERYTHING that the RNS-E does. -Even the older 192x version.



davis_449 said:


> For about $1000 less, you can get 95% of the features out of an aftermarket HU that you could get out of a second gen RNS-E.


Oh, I'll bite! Sell me one! I strongly doubt I'll agree that it has "95%"" of the usability!



davis_449 said:


> If you want aesthetics, there is no argument, RNS-e is pretty much the only way to go, but you will search long and hard and pay hefty for it. The only features I am missing are the audio information display in my DIS and the ability to turn on my radio when the key isn't in the ignition. That's it. Everything else from my AVIC Z120BT works as factory and sounds great because I don't have Bose (on purpose) and I added a sub.


I agree that Bose is over-marketed and very average. -You may be overlooking a couple of other things though.



davis_449 said:


> **Yes, the A3 does have an accessory position**. There is a builtin function for the stock HU's in the CANBUS that allows them to turn off and on without the key being turned to ACC.


**This is demonstrably WRONG.**

The ability to turn on without the key being in has ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with the CAN bus. -You can bench-power an RNS-E and turn it on and off... again, it ahs nothng to do with CAN bus.

Also, not ALL A3's have switched 12v at the connector. I may be recalling incorrectly, but I think that it's one of the reasons that swapping from RNS-E to Concert 2+ gets troublesome... I forget exactly WHICH way round it is, but one has a +12V missing, and not ALL cars were wired with switched +12V. Sometimes it has to be run from the fusebox.

Also, I just went outside and checked to make sure my memory wasn't letting me down, but my 2008 does NOT have an accessory position. It has Off, run and Crank. Those are the only three options. Sure, you can run the radio in 'run' without starting the engine, but that also turns on a lot of ancillary stuff that DOESN'T come on with a standard 'acc' position; -Like wipers enable, windows enable, and a load of other stuff active. (Like radar detector 'on' in my particular case). -I'm happy to post a video if you require.



davis_449 said:


> This feature is in most German cars in general (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, etc) and isn't a "premium audio" (Bose, Harmon Kardon, B&O, etc) feature. My stock sound system with the stock HU was able to do this. And, yes, the A3 does have both a switched 12V and a constant 12V.


Not true, as see previous paragraph.

Look, it's good that you're keen on this, but _some_ stuff you posted is definitely opinion, rather than accurate fact.

As for my own credentials, I too do a lot of audio installations, and have done for the last 35 years or so... and they most commonly run into $ seven digits. There are a couple of other A3'ers on the forum who are in related fields (Rub-Ish, LWNY spring to mind) and I expect they'd back me up if they had to, so hopefully you can appreciate that I'm not just 'armchair quarterbacking'...

However, since you tend to deal with more automotive systems than I do you may be able to correct me on one thing where I've relied upon an assumption: -Do *any* aftermarket units use CAN bus to follow steering angle and distance traveled like the Aisin RNS-E does? (hence able to track the vehicle's position in tunnel/building-shadow/thunderstorm conditions? -If not, then you'd have a very hard time EVER convincing me that anything achieves a number anything LIKE "95% functionality".


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

> About your experience installing stuff in German cars: excellent. Not wishing to sound in any way condescending, but good for you.
> About the first sentence being bull****: Reasonable people may differ.


Really? Based on your posts below, you don't really fit in the "reasonable people" category.


> Again reasonable people may differ. I have not seen a SINGLE aftermarket installation which offers EVERYTHING that the RNS-E does. -Even the older 192x version.





> Very possibly not ALL, but you certainly lose a lot, and then have to spend money correcting or adapting for what you lose... -I mean, just the fact that it doesn't power of when you remove thekey is irritation point number one!





> Oh, I'll bite! Sell me one! I strongly doubt I'll agree that it has "95%"" of the usability!





> I agree that Bose is over-marketed and very average. -You may be overlooking a couple of other things though.


Really? List them off so I can refute them. I've used both systems and there isn't a feature the 1st gen RNS-e has that an AVIC D3 (Circa 2006) didn't have. Sounds to me as though you've never used an aftermarket double DIN NAV unit before. What's your experience in all of this?


> The ability to turn on without the key being in has ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with the CAN bus. -You can bench-power an RNS-E and turn it on and off... again, it ahs nothng to do with CAN bus.
> 
> Also, not ALL A3's have switched 12v at the connector. I may be recalling incorrectly, but I think that it's one of the reasons that swapping from RNS-E to Concert 2+ gets troublesome... I forget exactly WHICH way round it is, but one has a +12V missing, and not ALL cars were wired with switched +12V. Sometimes it has to be run from the fusebox.
> 
> Also, I just went outside and checked to make sure my memory wasn't letting me down, but my 2008 does NOT have an accessory position. It has Off, run and Crank. Those are the only three options. Sure, you can run the radio in 'run' without starting the engine, but that also turns on a lot of ancillary stuff that DOESN'T come on with a standard 'acc' position; -Like wipers enable, windows enable, and a load of other stuff active. (Like radar detector 'on' in my particular case). -I'm happy to post a video if you require.


So if my assumption that the CANBUS allows it to turn on when the car is off and key out of the ignition was wrong, go ahead and correct it, but please explain where this function resides. The rest of your post is grasping at straws trying to prove me wrong. You're right about the "Run" position", but I termed it ACC because it does the same thing for the A3 (an most all other European cars) that an ACC position does. If you want to go the video route, I will happily take a video of everything working in my A3, including my steering wheel controls and navigation through a tunnel (look up what a VSS wire is) if you would like. Bottom line is that your post is mostly bull****. You don't give up a lot and you can wire these things in for the price I stated. I don't think a $150 harness and a tiny SAT radio module are too many "extras" to wire up to get above the function level of a 1st or even 2nd Gen RNS-e.

BTW, every install I have done, the unit always powers off when I remove the key. Do you think that's luck or the fact (which you don't want to admit) that I know what I'm doing?


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

Hey, I'm not going to get dragged into a contest of insults, so don't bother.

I do think you may have misinterpreted my comments about the Bose... Nothing to 'refute' if I'm agreeing with you.

(incidentally, i think this all sounds pretty reasonable so far, don't you?)

But if you're talking about demonstrably wrong stuff, or challenging facts, or whatever, would you like to take a look at your statement that (and I'm paraphrasing you here, so please forgive) _"you can get something for $1000 less than an RNS-E that's 95% as good"_...

Okay... read this link:

http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5930186

That's an entire kit, Latest RNS-E. Brand new. Warrantied. WITH adaptors, interface cabling etc. Including code. From a reputable source. -Now look at the price. $1300.

So.... you just wrote that some wiring and about $150 of CAN interface can solve any issues that might bother you... that leaves you a budget of $150 for the head unit.

Good luck with that.

Or... perhaps you might like to admit that you were wrong, or overreaching, or exaggerating with that claim?

I mean numbers is numbers.

As for the rest of it, I can't be bothered.

And please DON'T put words into my mouth. -At no point anywhere did I suggest that you don't know what you're doing. -I did point out some inaccuracies in your statements.

And this post I believe has detailed another one.


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

VWAddict said:


> Hey, I'm not going to get dragged into a contest of insults, so don't bother.
> 
> I do think you may have misinterpreted my comments about the Bose... Nothing to 'refute' if I'm agreeing with you.
> 
> ...


I asked you to list out the features that an aftermarket HU was missing vs. an RNS-e Gen I or II because you kept harping that "you lose alot of features". Again, tell me what features one would lose. My post had nothing to do with you disagreeing with me about the Bose system's sound quality. You were the one that misinterpreted that.



> Okay... read this link:
> 
> http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5930186
> 
> ...


My research on Aftermarket vs. RNS-e was from 2011. I will admit it's outdated now. That post you linked is the company I got my prices from back then...$2500. Still, numbers are numbers so now the aftermarket option is about $460 less. Here's the math: $609 for an AVIC X940BT that has the same and more capability than an RNS-e minus DIS info and ability to turn it on while the car's off from Sonic Electronix (reputable, bought from them before), $100 for sat module, $150 for a wiring harness and antenna adapter, and $80 for a badass rubber touch dash kit (so it looks clean, not cheap). Roughly $460 cheaper. Want more functionality and bigger screen? Fine. AVIC Z140BH sourced the same way: roughly $1210 so therefore roughly $190 cheaper. AVIC Z130BT is $40 cheaper than the Z140BH and still available for purchase. Does that math work for you?

My original conclusion still stands. If you don't have Bose, going aftermarket is a great way to save money and get the same or more features out of an aftermarket HU and be better able to develop the rest of the system for less money (i.e. no installation of clean sweeps etc. for component upgrades). If you have Bose, RNS-e is totally worth it, especially now (thanks VWAddict for the link and updated cost).


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

Much better, thanks.

I know you're still 'pushing' me for lost functionality? -I already covered an example of one assumption of mine, and noted that it was an assumption... although definitely a deal-breaking one for me: the steering angle and distance traveled input via CAN. -If there's another unit that does this, I'd appreciate the info.

Mind you, while smart people like you and me would be able to manage this sort of aftermarket fitment, it's a sad truth that more than fifty percent of people seem to struggle even with OEM upgrades... just take a look at some threads asking for guidance. -If people have to ask questions about how to change interior light bulb types, then suggesting they try integrating an AVIC and getting things to work well is not anything I'd do.

Then there'd be the follow-up threads asking why it doesn't turn on and off at the same time that the OEM one did (turning off NOT when the key is turned to 'off', but when it's REMOVED... which I don't know is possible with non-CAN bus reading installations).

So with all that -and with me being a bit of a cynic, yes, I freely confess- I do indeed recommend that most people stay AWAY from aftermarket 'upgrades'. -That's why I said if you want seamless integration but _"moar powwah"_, do the "amp-and-speakers" approach.

You're perfectly entitled to think that people should try to upgrade things on their own, but I've also got a company making circuit boards for DIY audio elecronics builders, and I've come to take the view that nothing is foolproof, and you'll ALWAYS get people who persuade themselves that they should take on projects that are -in reality- a little bit beyond their level of skill or understanding... and they they tend to pursue YOU to help "make it right"... Done too much of that in my lifetime, and it's given me a slightly jaded view, I'll happily admit. -But that's why I still stand by my initial assessment that most people would actually be better off sticking with OEM.

And I can't stand Bose.

You'll still NEVER see Bose in ANY professional recording signal path. -It's all trickery, and I can't abide it.

See, the FULL explanation takes a _whole_ lotta typing. -And -like I said right up front- I just can't be bothered.


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

VWAddict said:


> Much better, thanks.
> 
> I know you're still 'pushing' me for lost functionality? -I already covered an example of one assumption of mine, and noted that it was an assumption... although definitely a deal-breaking one for me: the steering angle and distance traveled input via CAN. -If there's another unit that does this, I'd appreciate the info.


Fair enough. The fact is, most _all _aftermarket NAV units have a VSS wire so you can connect it to the one on any given stock harness and utilize that feature of the vehicle for such purposes as you stated previously.



> Mind you, while smart people like you and me would be able to manage this sort of aftermarket fitment, it's a sad truth that more than fifty percent of people seem to struggle even with OEM upgrades... just take a look at some threads asking for guidance. -If people have to ask questions about how to change interior light bulb types, then suggesting they try integrating an AVIC and getting things to work well is not anything I'd do.
> 
> Then there'd be the follow-up threads asking why it doesn't turn on and off at the same time that the OEM one did (turning off NOT when the key is turned to 'off', but when it's REMOVED... which I don't know is possible with non-CAN bus reading installations).
> 
> ...


Well, let me be clear. I fully agree with you. I don't suggest people take this sort of **** on if it's outside their capabilities either. However, the OP seems hell bent on doing it, so I try to steer people like him in the right direction so at least they're using proper equipment\interfaces if they heed my advice. If they're simply considering it I don't suggest it, rather I stay the hell out of the thread.

As for your reference to the key and ignition. I'm not aware of one that will function the way you state. But I do look at that as "no big loss" the same as being able to turn the radio on and off without the key.



> And I can't stand Bose.
> 
> You'll still NEVER see Bose in ANY professional recording signal path. -It's all trickery, and I can't abide it.
> 
> See, the FULL explanation takes a _whole_ lotta typing. -And -like I said right up front- I just can't be bothered.


You are definitely right on this. I have read and fully understand how Bose manipulates to achieve their goals.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

There. -Let's have a virtual handshake and agree that being civil toward one another is significantly better than shouting at each other! 

Okay... anyone still considering a head unit upgrade who has read this far _should_ by now have reached the conclusion that:

1) VWAddict is a grumpy curmudgeon who won't be offering any help, but does a wonderful line in criticism.

2) Things are often POSSIBLE, but not always easy. -If you're not confident that you know what you're doing, make sure you contact someone who IS.

Now, let's have a cup of tea, or a choice ale... -Your call!


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## davis_449 (Apr 6, 2011)

VWAddict said:


> There. -Let's have a virtual handshake and agree that being civil toward one another is significantly better than shouting at each other!
> 
> Okay... anyone still considering a head unit upgrade who has read this far _should_ by now have reached the conclusion that:
> 
> ...


Absolutely.:thumbup:


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## Ponto (Jan 11, 2012)

VWAddict said:


> *1) VWAddict is a grumpy old Brit*


FTFY :wave:


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

Hey now... 

DON'T make me get Rogerthat in here to get all bazooka on your Canuck butt!










opcorn:


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## Ponto (Jan 11, 2012)

VWAddict said:


> Hey now...
> 
> DON'T make me get Rogerthat in here to get all bazooka on your Canuck butt!
> 
> ...


Bazooka Joes? 










Sent from my SGH-I757M using Tapatalk 2


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