# VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers



## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

Hi guys,
although this is the first post...I'm certainly no newbie on the forum, I think that it's best look and think before posting like mad.... Anyway I have a 00 VR6T 12v on 19lbs of boost, with forged pistons, balanced rods, arp hardware, c2 shorty manifold, tuned with stock ecu bla bla bla...you get the picture...
I want to switch to a Megasquirt setup but what really bugs me, even after an extensive search over the whole web is the lack of REAL, PROVEN, EFFECTIVE, EASY WRITTEN instructions on how to install the system...so I came down with some simple but yet, very important questions:
1.Is it possible to use the stock coilpack on a 12v VR6 with MS?
2.Is it possible to use the stock coil on plugs of 24v VR6 with MS?
3.Does the MS covers (with the right mods) all the bases on VR6s?
4.Can, the MS, control the Drive by Wire system on the newest VR6s?
5. Can be, the MS, be wired to use the stock sensors, without any mods?
6. Is there a way to have wideband built in MS?
The goal of this is to produce some really interesting discussion that hopefully will produce a REAL, SIMPLE manual that will cover A to Z any and every side of the VR6 MS installation on 12v and 24v as well. Also, simple language is welcome since I know many newbies out there that have limited budgets (can't afford 034, tec3r, ect) but REALLY want to start this kind of project. (they love boost







)
Finally seems to be that the closest and most complete offer for a VR6 owner is the Patatron's one....although there many ??? after reading some tutorials.....
As a last side note this is for distributor less Drive by Wire VR6 owners 12v and 24v, since for what I already have investigated..... distributor Drive By Cable VR6s MS conversion have been already made successfully.
Thank you for your attention, hope this will produce some real, meaningful discussion, towards a solid guide or DIY.
Cheers,


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

Guys,
I need the all mighty experts to accomplish this....also all the community will benefit from this which is obviously the main point....
Any help would be appreciated?
Thank you


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## jettaflair (Jan 7, 2006)

I'm pretty sure most people using megasquirt lean against step-by-step instructions for running Megasquirt as every application is different and the nature of the system requires a whole bunch of learning and innovation. It will be far easier and safer in the long run if you learn how to do everything and understand how it works as you're installing and setting it up.
You can certainly use the stock coilpack. However, like the mk3 2L coil, there is a "dumb" igniter attached to it. You will have to remove it and attach the three ignition channels directly to the fusible links. You will also have to add two more VB921 ignition controller chips to the one that should already be on-board.
I don't know if the 24v coilpacks can be used on a 12v simply because of fitment, but if they plug in then a coil is a coil is a coil. Again they have "dumb" ignition modules and will have to be removed - and you will have to add five VB921s to give you six ignition channels, which is the maximum that megasquirt supports. Also some kind of cam sync may be needed, wasted spark is easier to hook up.
Yes Megasquirt should cover all the bases when it comes to VR6es - an engine is an engine, right? I can't help you out with mk4 wiring, however.
Megasquirt doesn't need as many sensors as the stock computer; extra things such as the MAF can be ditched. It still needs coolant temp, air temp, vac/boost, crank trigger, coils, injectors, all of which can be spliced in. For a wideband o2 you will need to purchase a separate controller such as Innovate's LC-1.
Finally, since you have spent so much time and money already on building your engine and getting it working, you should certainly not skimp on engine management - it can truly make or break your engine. Maybe megasquirt isn't for you. Consider other options such as MoTeC before you go diving in; it does cost more, but is miles ahead technologically.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: (jettaflair)*

i dont think motec is the answer but certainly the rest of your car was not on a budget so why should your standalone. your car is only as strong as the weakest link.
you will need to convert your throttle body to drive by cable. the only flaw i see in MS is with a VR6 you must use batch fire. 
24v coil packs fit and you can use them.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

1. YES, but you will have to mod the LED outputs for 5v when 'on' or use internal drivers and be rid of the amplifier.
2. YES, same as above
3. YES.
4. NO, but I don't think any standalone that's out can.
5. Yes, but you need to use Easytherm to recalibrate the program for the Bosch sensors. 
6. Not built in but there are many widebands that work well with it.
Dave CdnDub had a good writeup on this either here or on msefi.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*

Guys,
thank for all the input.....keep the answer flowing in.....this is getting very interesting. As my car's engine, well it might seem that I'm not on a budget, but I built the motor exchanging my work (web programmer) for parts, so I really not spent "almost any cash" on it. Thus, since now I'm working for other people that are nor involved in the mechanical field, I HAVE TO stay on the budget side...I really don't have/want to spend 2 grands for a "major brand" standalone...So MS is my choice for now.....also what about VEMS...how it does compare to MS, it's better for VR6? Does it have the necessary coil drivers already on board?
So as far as I see, drive by cable it's the only way to go? Why? It's too complicated or, simply speaking, no one has put enough effort to compile a module, or build a dedicated hardware to overcome this glitch?
I really do appreciate your help guys, and I hope that this discussion will evolve towards a really informative thread for who, like me is trying to squeeze as much performance and reliability as possible with a reasonable budget.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

VEMS could be a better option, has wideband built in but has even less support than megasquirt does, the megasquirt support is 100x more than the VEMS.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (bonesaw)*

Exactly,
that's what is really scaring me....support. Megasquirt has tons of support while VEMS is like a limbo stuff...although a good one... what about Drive By Wire with VEMS....can you keep it successfully?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

i dont know of any standalone that can keep drive by wire. megasquirt still doesnt have that much support compared to other standalones.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (bonesaw)*

So, one thing is for sure:
I NEED a Drive by Cable TB.
What about patatron offer....can be used on a 24v coil on plug vr6?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

if its wired correctly you can use COP


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (bonesaw)*

Great thanx for the answer!
So, what's the cheapest drive by cable conversion available out there?
Maybe getting an used OBD 2 TB from a mk3 car? What else? Seems that I'm a little out of creativity at this moment...








Also, one thing that currently drives me mad.....does the megasquirt works really standalone? I mean, does the motronic ecu needs to be taken out? How about climatronic, dashboard and all the other systems?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

I've built a dbw tb driver with a little microcontroller. Lets just say it wasn't easy and even I wouldn't trust it on a car. Too much liability for it to be out there, just think about what happens and something 'oops' happens and the tb smacks open or shut at a bad moment. 
That being said the cheapest way is to get an OEM VW TB from a VR6 or an aftermarket one for a Mustang. If you use the OBD2 VR6 it will have a built in idle motor, the other two, you'll need external idle control. 
Megasquirt is a REAL standalone, the fact that it won't run your dash is because the Mk4 dash runs off of CAN bus and not separate inputs for each function like the earlier ones. You'll need to at least partially retain the stock ecu to keep the stock cluster.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*

Thanks man,
well I'm open to risk and willingful to tryout such driver....looks to be promising....what kind of test did you do on that? But first I must set up my car to accept MS.
I can get the OBD2 TB (will make my life easier for sure), and I'm ready to accept the fact that I'll run two ecus in my car. So far I realized that I need:
1. MS 1 with MSnS-E code + 5 extra vb921 to control all the ignition signal in the case I'll switch to 24v later.
2. An OBD2 TB + Cable + Pedal
3. A 3 Bar MAP since my car will se more than 25psi but less than 40psi
4.Lots of time & patience.
5. Can I keep the stock coilpack or I must go for the Ford EDIS module, which one requires less time and gives me the overall best ignition control?
So, has anyone came up with complete diagrams and instruction to do such project? I'm looking to do a complete write up with photos of my experience, so others will benefit from that.....maybe I'm the first one on MK4s maybe not, but I'm willingful to experiment and take my car on the next level. 
Many thanks to everyone and please, keep the ideas flowing, I need all the experience and skills from you guys to make this happen.
I'll surely post some pictures from my current setup, as a startpoint for my MS Project.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

People,
can someone give me a final list of what I need to make MS I work on a MK4 VR6 12v car?
Also, do anyone has a tutorial that explains how to install the mod onto the MS I to make it work with my car?
Thanks


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

You might be willing to use it, but I'm not willing to give it out. Mine was only on the bench with a separate controller driving an ATW 20v tb with a potentiometer. I have NO idea if it'll work in a car, but it did 'follow' the pot pretty decently. Everything I built was breadboards and jumpers, nothing robust about the hardware or the software. DBC until someone has enough insurance to cover the liability there.
Your best bet is MS1 with a V3 board, running the extra code. I don't think you need ANY VB921's though as the Mk3 coils and perhaps the MK4 coils have the amplifiers built in (they are if they're 3-4 wire). Definitley don't need EDIS.
You can control the stock coilpack, but you need to mod the output circuits to source 5v instead of sinking ground. CdnDub had a GREAT post that includes this mod and much else VR6 info, search for it. He has the most info on MSing a VR6 as he was one of the first. If you can't find it here, check msefi.com there was a lot of talk going on over there as well when he was getting it all sorted out.
You'll want a connector end to go with the OBD2 tb as well. You can use the internal ISV as well as one of the two TPS's that are built in. 
I'll help in any way I can. I'll be putting a distro car on MS very soon as well as my own when I get the spare time. Mk2/3's are much easier though.
My big worry is the cluster integration, it'd be easier to rip it all out for aftermarket gauges IMHO.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*

Thank you man,
I really do appreciate your help offering.....
Yeah, the cluster is the big no-no on this project...BUT BUT since is my daily driver....I have to keep ABS, ESP, Climatronic etc. Then I'll take the fuel and ignition stuff off the motronic and put them onto MS. 
The only big worry about is IF MS can simulate the stock O2 to fool the stock ECU into thinking that he's running stoich when in fact, under boost I'll be somewhere between 12 and 12,7. I really don't want







to clear hundreds of cels a day







.
Also, I think I'll contact CdnDub for additional information if after doing another search (think it's the 201th time I do one







), I can't find the information I need.
Anyway as for parts concerns looks like that the standard Ms1 3.0 board will do for me with just the pull up modification for the stock coilpack (MK4 is for 4 pins by the way). 
What About 24v with VVT? Can MS control each coil? Will I, in this case, need 6 VB921, one for each coil? Can I control VVT with one of the additional PWMs?
I'm asking this since I have the option to swap the engine & harness for a 24v one....so I'm considering which one will work best with MS.\
Thank you, this is finally taking some interesting shape for me, may the Mk4 Vr6 quest for power begin!
Cheers










_Modified by vr6_addict at 8:13 PM 5-28-2007_


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## Diggatron (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

2.Is it possible to use the stock coil on plugs of 24v VR6 with MS? 
DIYAUTOTUNE describes this as a “10” in complexity out of 10 possible…look here:
http://diyautotune.com/tech_ar...s_cop

6. Is there a way to have wideband built in MS?
Some are working on this as we speak (not to mention Bowling Grippo themselves)……..
I will say that the amount of support from the Megasquirt community has be without parallel. Having owned an 034efi IC system, I can give major props to the community of user’s on Motorgeek, as well as Javad himself. Both were very helpful to the user’s of that system. I think that we all have to remember that MS was designed as a DIY system. ALL innovations to the system have come from those who use the system. Makes things a bit slow going where “change” is concerned. You now have those who look to bring products out for the MS user that will make things easier for them to integrate the system into their ride. That can be difficult as well, because of the process of R&D etc. Additionally, I will say that their exist MANY powerful turbocharged cars with MS, so I don’t perceive it as an inferior product, it’s just that a lot of ECU’s include features that the regular guy most likely wont use for their project. Lots of flash, no real value. Let me end by saying that one of your first concerns is the issue of having a definite way to install the system. The problem with that is the fact that (and I think somebody else pointed this out) there is no standard way of introducing MS into your car. Some say you don’t need this, or you do use that, etc. Do you want to use a relay board or not? Will you be using wideband? All of these and a few others will mandate a different wiring diagram. Let’s not even start with the fact that some MS builder’s don’t pin out their systems the same as B&G does. This can create issues of compatibility where getting ideas from other MS user’s is concerned. IMHO when standardization happens, more innovation will happen.
BTW, you don’t have to run Batch injection only, you can set it up to run “alternating” fire. I know this is stone age compared to full on sequential, but the GPIO board is right around the corner, and will give you full sequential capability. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

Adrian, thanks for clarifying a few points. 
After thinking about it a bit it'll be easier to leave your whole stock computer and mount an additional trigger on the crank. That'll leave your cluster reading rpm, etc. Then ADD additional sensors for the MS ecu. I think that's the best way to retain the stock cluster. 
You'd be using the MS for fuel/ignition and that's it. However, I dont' think there's ANY way to get the Motronic ECU happy from an OBD2 point of view and I don't think it matters. You WILL NOT be able to pass an OBD2 scan once you go down this road anyway so I wouldn't even put that as a possibility.
You don't have to use individual coil firing to have 6 coils. You can run these coils in waste spark pairs. Though you might want to upgrade the output transistors, OR build 6 separate circuits one for each coil. I don't think you need the VB's at all with any of these coils as they have built in amplifiers. 
MS can run VVT on the exhaust cam with a single output, and the VVT intake with the 'boost controller' output with a line of the source code changed to read map instead of tps. There's info on msefi.com for that.
Hope that clears up a few more things.


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## vr6_addict (May 27, 2007)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (Diggatron)*

Yeah,
what scares me







is that anyone has his very own idea of wiring and doing this project.... but as now I know ther's not a definitive solution to do this. What I learned is that the standard relay board of my car can be used with Megasquirt....but again, no wiring diagrams has been found...
What I know for sure is:
1. Motronic ECU will stay in there controlling ABS, Climatronic, Dash and many thing that are connected to the CAN bus.
2. I have to fool the ecu with some 1k resistors onto the injectors lines to make him think that the injectors are still connected.
3. I need different coilpacks to make the installation a little easier.
4. I need a wideband O2 controller + sensor
5. I need a stock OBD2 DBC TB.
6. If I were to use a 24v VVT is a hit or miss thing...can be controlled with a relay mod, but if it's a continuosly variable system (which I don't know...help here please







) it's better let it to the stock ECU, because no code exists for this.
7. I can let stock sensors and recalibrate them with Easy Therm, but maybe I'll swap them with GM ones for better functionality and easy to use setup.
8. Boost control will soon be integrated, but the diagrams are already available...so easy going on this one.
I feel like I'm building up a 10k piece puzzle.....sometimes I just feel 'overhelmed'..


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## GREASE-MONKEY (Nov 22, 2006)

i want to know how to build the board to suit the vr with the wasted spark and everything


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (GREASE-MONKEY)*

The 'easy' way is to rid yourself of the stock ignition amplifier and use 3 VB921's right to the 'coil' section of the coilpack. 
There was a good diagram of what Dave @ FnF used to trigger the stock coils but it's not hosted anymore as far as I can tell. Circuit was 12v pullup trigger to ground off the LED's but I don't remember the resistor values.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

330ohm 1/4 watt
ask me how I know


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

*Re: (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_330ohm 1/4 watt
ask me how I know










I am curious.

Things are going ok with my MS conversion on my 83 scirocco kind of. With the VR6 motor I have built for my 92 GTi conversion using OBD1 stuff, I'm going to definitely need fuel/timing control to get the most out of it!


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (gdoggmoney)*

http://forum.vwsport.com/viewtopic.php?t=22404
I have a notebook in the garage.


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## rjc69 (Oct 10, 2006)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (vr6_addict)*

MSII sound like it would be a MUCH better ecu than the MSI. What I'm reading is that Ultrasquirt should be out around early 2008. It will have provisions for sequential injection, coil on plug, built in wide band drivers, and a whole lot of extra stuff... Talk to Matt Cramer at diyautotune.com he is who helped me get mine up and running. P.S. there is a guy on the msefi.com forums from Florida. His log in name is "jim". He also REALLY knows alot about MS. Good luck, and if you get your answers and decide to share, please e-mail me your results. I have a friend who wants to go MS on his VR6. Thanks, Rob....


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## Diggatron (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (rjc69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rjc69* »_.....Ultrasquirt should be out around early 2008. It will have provisions for sequential injection, coil on plug, built in wide band drivers, and a whole lot of extra stuff....

In other words, they will be taking the "DIY" right out of the equation.....sad.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (Diggatron)*

There's still MS1 and MS2 and the 2.2 and V3 boards for those who want to truly DIY. Honestly after building so many of these ECU's the 3.57 has been the best thing ever to come out.


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_There's still MS1 and MS2 and the 2.2 and V3 boards for those who want to truly DIY. Honestly after building so many of these ECU's the 3.57 has been the best thing ever to come out.

The surface mount board?
What about having to do board mods with it?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (dubsrphat)*

Yes surface mount. Most of the I/O that can change has jumper pads provided. A lot like the tachselect, VR/opto setup the V3 has but more of it. No proto area but it's easy enough to put in a little protoboard.


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## Diggatron (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_There's still MS1 and MS2 and the 2.2 and V3 boards for those who want to truly DIY. Honestly after building so many of these ECU's the 3.57 has been the best thing ever to come out.

Bah!!








I just think that having SMD with no reduction in size (exterior) is an execise in futility....personally. Love the concept, hate the execution!


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (Diggatron)*

It would be cool if the actual board was smaller. It would justify the price difference.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (dubsrphat)*

Honestly, having the board mostly built and not spending my time soldering actually lowers the final price http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*

Ya if you dont have the time, but you can get a prebuilt board for less than the SMD board
Trying to find a place for an MS box in a corrado is hard because it is decent sized. And they have to be in the car. That leaves me with glove box, or trunk (too far away)
I could stuff it hidden behind the dash better if it were smaller.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (dubsrphat)*

I have time, but it's all about giving my customers the best value. SMD and me doing the wiring, setup and tuning is a better deal then me assembling the whole board as well. My time isn't cheap! 
The best place is in the glovebox or just behind it, above the AC/heaterbox.


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## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*

Understandable http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I haven't put mine in the car yet... my car is sitting in my storage unit with no dash or heater boxes and no engine.
I am trying to avoid the glovebox but I think it might have to be the place.


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## Diggatron (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I have time, but it's all about giving my customers the best value. SMD and me doing the wiring, setup and tuning is a better deal then me assembling the whole board as well. My time isn't cheap! 

I see where you are coming from. I guess that I just had different expectations (of an SMD MS)....that's all. Hopefully, we will soon be able to offer something else to the MS community that you and other's will see increased value in. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (Diggatron)*

Figured I'd post back- my msns-e hi res with oem coilpack and sensors started up for the first time tonight. Music to my ears after 2 months since the car last ran.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 on Megasquirt...think WE ALL NEED some answers (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_Figured I'd post back- my msns-e hi res with oem coilpack and sensors started up for the first time tonight. Music to my ears after 2 months since the car last ran.









Score http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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