# Brake Service, Overhaul, Brake Pad and Disc (rotor) Replacement



## wlm (Sep 21, 2004)

*time for breaks*

I took my car in to get breaks. I was told that I need new roters and pads. This is the first time breaks have been done. Is this correct. the cost of the breaks will be 1200.00


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: time for breaks (wlm)*

As we discussed over the phone, I think that sounds pretty close to "just about right". I am doing brakes on an '04 V6 Touareg (fronts) and pads & rotors are running about $1025. 
Just wanted to put this out there for anyone else w/ the question in their mind. And, yes, rotors should be done at the same time as pads.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: time for breaks (wlm)*

Hi Bill:
I guess we should be grateful that the NAR W12 Phaetons got the smaller, two piston front brake assemblies, rather than the huge 8 piston brake assemblies that are installed on the European W12's. I would hate to guess what the cost of refurbishing the 8 piston Brembos would be...
FWIW, below is a photo I took of the front brake pads and rotors on my W12 when the snow tires were being installed. My car had 25,000 km (about 16,000 miles) on it when I took the picture.
Michael
*W12 Front Brakes at 16,000 miles (mostly highway travel - to GTG's)*


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: time for breaks (PanEuropean)*

I thought maintenance was covered the first 50K miles???


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Brakes are wear & tear items, not routine maintenance.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

As an old DIY'er, can't we do this ourselves? No disrespect, but this should be an easy job. I have always done the Benz's and Bimmer's myself.
Regards,
Brent


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: (W126C)*

My thoughts exactly! I'll have to peek at my brakes on my 15K mile 2 day old used Phaeton to see where I stand with respect to brake pad life.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (W126C)*


_Quote, originally posted by *W126C* »_As an old DIY'er, can't we do this ourselves? 

We probably could, however, my guess is that 90% of the cost is the materials, and labour is only a very small part of the cost. Personally, I'm scared to do any work myself on systems that directly affect safety (engine, wheels, driveline, airbags) - although I don't hesitate to tear the whole inside of the car apart to work on convenience systems, I won't even change my own oil, I always take the car to the dealer to have that done.
I have been known to change a tire from time to time - but then I go to the VW dealer to get them to set the correct torque on the wheel bolts, and to make sure everything else is in order.
Michael


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I'm very pleased with the VW service I've had and I trust them. But brakes/rotors are something I have seemed to do at the drop of a hat. No issue. I've change out the ABS sensors on my W126C with no problems. I know the Phaeton is more sophisticated, but the basics are still there. If I would have trouble, I'm sure they would enjoy having to help me out.







Doughnuts and paid invoice. It's just nice to have a good service department. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Regards,
Brent


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I believe every profession is subject to the 80/20 rule and, as such, the car technician world is probably a participant to this rule. I know that all of us can think of many, many car maintenance/repair horror stories .. and that thought makes me take control of my own world. 
FWIW, I check the torque of the lug nuts if anybody else touches them, I figure I'd rather be safe than sorry. Ask my friend why his wife's car made that horrible noise after her dealer visit involving a tire rotation. Yes, the lug nuts were loose ...
My point is to simply get involved and make sure the job is done according to spec whether via paid mechanic or DIY.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: (W126C)*

great Thread. If you change the brakes soon enough will you still have the Drum and Rotor issues. It would be nice to avoid the Drums. Brent there are several independents who work on High end German cars in town so brakes are a pretty easy and almost a commodity items. Yes, you have to follow the factory spec but I have seen dealers butcher brakes many times. We do about 5 brake jobs a week on tractors and trailers. So car brakes might not be too tough if you have the right person and parts.
Michael's point is taken like a true pilots view and thats a good one.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (Kcmover)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kcmover* »_If you change the brakes soon enough will you still have the Drum and Rotor issues. It would be nice to avoid the Drums. 

What drum issues? Phaetons have four wheel disc brakes. Am I missing something here?


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (Kcmover)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kcmover* »_If you change the brakes soon enough will you still have the Drum and Rotor issues.

Larry,
The rotors are, by design, only expected to last the life of the pads. Years ago VW (along with many others, e.g.: Ford, BMW) decided to do away with the issues related with turning rotors. Subsequently, the rotors are designed to last 1.5x pad life (for a little cushion factor) and are engineered in such a way that there is little extra labor for their replacement.
Once the caliper comes off to replace the brake pads, the only thing between rotor removal and you is a set screw. For years, I did pads & rotors. When I transitioned to my present dealership, I found they were "pad slapping" cars, so I figured I'd try it, even though it went against what I knew. Out of the seven cars I "pad slapped", seven came back within 7-10,000 miles for a pulsation while coming to a stop (warped rotors). So...I went back to doing what I knew was the "right" thing. 
Sure, it may be incrementally more money. However, as Michael points out, safety-related items such as brakes aren't really a good place to cut corners.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

Hi Chris:
Thanks for that info about rotor design life, I didn't know that.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_The rotors are, by design, only expected to last the life of the pads.

The rotors may be expected to last only the life of the pads but are capable of being turned and subsequently maintaining excellent safety. It is far more profitable for a service department to quickly replace the worn rotor with a new rotor than correctly turning the existing rotor.
The Phaeton's rotors are massive - even on the V8 model - and therefore very expensive to replace. Rotors with far less thickness have been safely turned for decades. Over $1000 USD for pads and rotors?!!!







You said changing the rotors is not labor intensive. The pads are not expensive. So I am left to infer from this thread that the bulk of the cost comes from replacing the rotors.
I'm going to get my rotors turned when the time comes.


_Modified by iluvmcr at 9:11 PM 12-15-2005_


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

I agree.
I recently had the opportunity to look at front rotors on a V8 Touareg with 25,000 miles on it. The massive rotors were 31 mm thick when new and are currently 29 mm thick. VW book shows minimum thickness to be 26mm. 
I'm sure the Phaeton rotors are the same. I highly doubt at 16,000 miles a Phaeton needs rotors. Check the thickness and if good, install new pads and seat the pads in properly during a road test.
Werner


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_It is far more profitable for a service department to quickly replace the worn rotor with a new rotor than correctly turning the existing rotor.

No...I don't charge extra labor for replacing the rotors. 

_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_You said changing the rotors is not labor intensive. The pads are not expensive. So I am left to infer from this thread that the bulk of the cost comes from replacing the rotors.

Parts are a significant part of the equation. However, there is labor involved. I would expect there would be even more labor involved for the technician to attach the rotors to the lathe, set it up and supervise its operation since that takes more time than replacing them.

_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_I'm going to get my rotors turned when the time comes.

Good luck. In five years, I have *never* seen a set of VW rotors turned. My understanding is the composition of the material makes for an unturnable product -- hence their "disposable" nature.

_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_Over $1000 USD for pads and rotors?!!! 

I think back to an old boss of mine, Bob Buffington. I learned many many things from him. One thing he taught me was "You play, you pay." This car isn't a Golf. It doesn't have Golf brakes. Given that a Phaeton's roughly 3x the price of a Golf, it's not unreasonable to expect the brakes would be priced accordingly. You're not going to get the oil changed in the car for $29.95 after the warranty's out, why would you expect to get the brakes done for $250????


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

I had a quick look at the specifications for the different parts used in the brake system of the Phaeton.
The North American Region (NAR) Phaetons are equipped with 18 inch front brakes, 360 x 34 mm rotors, and the production code for this equipment is 1ZK. NAR Phaetons are also equipped with 17 inch rear disc brakes with 310 x 22 mm rotors. The production code is 1KP.
The NAR V8 and the NAR W12 have the same brake components at both the front and rear of the vehicle. Be aware that the with the single exception of the rear brakes on the V8 (which are the same everywhere in the world), different brake specifications are used for ROW production Phaetons.
Respecting the NAR components, the Phaeton service manual states that 3 mm of wear is allowed on the front rotors - in other words, the new rotor width is 34 mm, and the service wear limit is 31 mm. The rear rotor is 22 mm thick when new and has a service wear limit of 20 mm - in other words, 2 mm of wear is allowed.
The rule of thumb that I follow when replacing brake rotors on aircraft (something I am comfortable with doing, because I am appropriately trained and licensed to do that) is that if the disc (the rotor) is still within allowable wear limits, but does not have enough remaining thickness to last for the foreseeable life of the new pads, I replace the rotor. To leave the existing rotor in service would be false economy - I would need to tear the system down to replace it before the new pads wore out. I follow the same rule of thumb with brake *pad *replacement on my motorcycle. The tires on my moto last about 10,000 km (6,000 miles) - if the moto technician tells me that the pads have less than 10,000 km of foreseeable service life remaining when he is changing the *tires*, then I ask him to toss a new set of pads on at the same time, so I don't end up needing to bring the moto in for a brake pad replacement halfway through the tire life. There is no additional labour charge to replace brake pads at the same time that the wheel is off for tire replacement - however, it is about a 2 hour labour charge to re and re the wheel for the sole purpose of replacing brake pads.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we have to look at the whole issue of component wear in the context of 'lowest overall parts and labour expense'. Sometimes it is less expensive to replace a single component before it reaches its service wear limit than it is to let the component serve its full life, but then have to disassemble things twice (as opposed to once) to when that component wears out.
I am going to my VW dealer this afternoon, I will try to get some prices for these different brake components (pads, rotors). That way, we can all make our own educated decisions about the 'parts vs. additional labour' cost-benefit question.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Many thanks to Blaine, the Parts Department Manager at my VW dealership, for supplying us with the information below. The prices indicated are full list in Canadian dollars. I have converted them to USD using prevailing exchange rates, however, the actual price at the American dealerships might be slightly different - I doubt if the US dollar price is derived from the CAD price, probably it works the other way around!
Note that the discs (rotors) are sold individually, but the pads are sold in sets of four. One set of pads is sufficient to do the entire front end or entire rear end of the car.
The technicians at my VW dealership told me that discs are never machined (refinished), because the type of lightweight disc used in cars today does not have sufficient excess material on it to allow machining. When a disc is machined, it will normally lose about 0.75 mm from each side (meaning, 1.5 mm total thickness) - and the difference between the thickness of a new, unused disc and the service wear limit on that same disc is only 2 or 3 mm total. In other words, there is not sufficient material there to allow for refinishing of the disc. This new type of lightweight disc began to become commonplace around the end of the 1980s.
Michael
*Phaeton Front Brakes*








*Phaeton Rear Brakes*


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Many thanks to Blaine, the Parts Department Manager at my VW dealership,

And many thanks to you Michael and Chris. What an education this whole thing has been. Just a new way, for me, of thinking about brakes. I guess I should be taking more Continuing ED and try harder to keep up with all the changes.







It's the darn cell phone that takes up all my time now.








Regards,
Brent


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## Kreivi (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: (W126C)*

It did not sound too expensive at all, but there seems to be about 40% of 'air' in those service dept. prices compared to if you just order the same parts online.
Front brakes: 
Rotor 128 USD
Pads 140 USD
Rear brakes:
Rotor 85 USD
Pads 55USD
Brake component prices seem to have come down quite nicely in a year. I was looking at the Touareg brake component prices a year ago, and those were roughly twice what they are now.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_Just had my 10K service. . . dealer does a Quality Vehicle Inspection Report.. . it states Brake Lining-front-10mm, Rear-9mm... how can that be?

Hi Gerald:
My guess is that the technician was referring to the remaining thickness on the pads, not the thickness of the rotors. If you look at the picture of the brake pad on my car (up at the top), those numbers would make sense if you measured the thickness of the pad.
Just a guess.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Kreivi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kreivi* »_It did not sound too expensive at all, but there seems to be about 40% of 'air' in those service dept. prices compared to if you just order the same parts online.

Well, that's fully understandable - if you order just about any part (brake part, tire, whatever) from an online retailer, it will be less expensive than buying it from the same integrated service facility that both sells the part and installs it.
I had a filling done in one of my teeth last week, and I think the dentist charged me $50 or so for the materials that he used to construct the restoration. I just checked online, and I can order 10 grams of epoxy resin for only $25 from an internet retailer. I don't think, however, that my dentist would be impressed if I showed up with my own parts. I doubt if the technicians at my VW dealership would be either.
There's noting wrong with ordering parts online if you know exactly what you need and you plan to do the work yourself - that's the niche that online retailers serve. For some types of parts - most notably appliance parts - it's great. For other types of parts - things you want a professional to install, like fillings in your teeth or brake components in your car - it ain't appropriate. I don't think the price difference is 'air', I think it is overhead.
Michael


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## Kreivi (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I just wanted to highlight that 1200 USD brake job is not 90% materials as was stated above.
I am not quite sure about the analogy to dental work though (as I am sure that it cannot be taught from service manuals) . My background is in electrical engineering (MSc.), so basically I'm a 'nerd' by education and I am not supposed to know much about anything mechanical. But, I have changed the brake pads / rotors for several of my previous cars and motor cycles (not rotors for bikes actually). In my mind brake job is one of the easiest DIY jobs that one can do. Obviously, if one has not done any DIY maintenance on a car before, it might seem like to be a lot of work.


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
The technicians at my VW dealership told me that discs are never machined (refinished), because the type of lightweight disc used in cars today does not have sufficient excess material on it to allow machining. When a disc is machined, it will normally lose about 0.75 mm from each side (meaning, 1.5 mm total thickness) - and the difference between the thickness of a new, unused disc and the service wear limit on that same disc is only 2 or 3 mm total. In other words, there is not sufficient material there to allow for refinishing of the disc. This new type of lightweight disc began to become commonplace around the end of the 1980s.


Presumably the engineering justification for this is to reduce unsprung weight, which improves handling.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_Parts are a significant part of the equation. However, there is labor involved. I would expect there would be even more labor involved for the technician to attach the rotors to the lathe, set it up and supervise its operation since that takes more time than replacing them.
Good luck. In five years, I have *never* seen a set of VW rotors turned. My understanding is the composition of the material makes for an unturnable product -- hence their "disposable" nature.
I think back to an old boss of mine, Bob Buffington. I learned many many things from him. One thing he taught me was "You play, you pay." This car isn't a Golf. It doesn't have Golf brakes. Given that a Phaeton's roughly 3x the price of a Golf, it's not unreasonable to expect the brakes would be priced accordingly. You're not going to get the oil changed in the car for $29.95 after the warranty's out, why would you expect to get the brakes done for $250????

Chris, I have always appreciated and respected your contributions to this forum and you certainly have more knowledge about Phaeton maintenance than I do (no sarcasm intended). But I must, at least for now, disagree with you on this one.
I have 38,000 miles on my Phaeton and the rotors look great. There is nothing exotic about the rotor material - it is high quality steel and a lot of it. What makes them unturnable?
The fact that you have never seen vw rotors turned is not proof or even substantial evidence that the Phaeton's rotors cannot be turned.
You said turning the rotors is more labor intensive. You also said in a previous post that replacing the rotors does not require much labor. If you replace the rotors, rather than turning them, you get the car out of the shop faster and that fact alone increases your profit because you can service more cars. You do make a profit on the parts you sell.
Yes I do want to play and, if I must, I will pay. But I don't agree with the fact that you must pay 4 - 5 times what other people pay for a brake job on a vehicle of equal weight. Just because the Phaeton is expensive doesn't mean I shouldn't question high maintenance costs. I have owned vehicles weighing 8000 pounds and the brakes were actually smaller and the rotors were turned. The resultant brake job provided a good service life. The brake job typically cost me about $250 USD for new pads and turned rotors. Again, there is nothing exotic about the Phaeton's brake pads or rotors.
Decades of experience with disc brakes, including doing my own brake jobs, causes me to disagree with what you are saying. I'm going to take the rotors to an automotive machine shop and get them turned. If I get pulsating stops after 5000 miles on the turned rotors I will gladly tell the forum Chris is correct and I'm wrong.


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## Andrew C (Mar 29, 2005)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

I'll add my two cents and say that if you have some experience and a shop manual, the Phaeton brake job certainly seems to be within the realm of DIY by ordering the parts online. That being said I wouldn't waste my time turning the rotors. I've tried that on a few cars and they were all a waste of time. After several thousand miles for one reason or another I always ended up with something I didn't like about the braking performance. 
Nowadays when I do a brake job, rather than doing the job twice, I just replace the rotors. But by all means, please report back in a few thousand and after some hard stops from highway speeds. I'd be curious to see if the Phaeton would be the exception to the rule of not turning rotors.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (Andrew C)*

I did have a few vehicles that turning the rotors caused unsatisfactory results (pulsating stops from warping after a few thousand miles) and a few that worked fine with turning the rotors.
When it is time for brakes, I want to turn the rotors to see what the experiment yields, more than any other reason. The Phaeton's brakes are expensive and quite large, even for a 5200 lb vehicle. You don't want to take pulsating brakes into the winter months but a full summer of driving on turned rotors is enough to let me know without endangering the car.


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

I'm my lifetime I've done 1000's of brake jobs. A lot of them still had good rotors that did not need to be replaced or turned.
If there are no pulsation issues and all you need are front brakes, slap a set of new pads up front. However it's very important that you measure rotor thickness and make sure it's at or above minimum thickness. With the new pads installed drive the car and apply the brakes a few times and seat the pads in. Each time stopping the car harder than before. Don't overheat the brakes. After a dozen or so stops you'll notice that the brake pedal feels solid again. Done.
Werner


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AusSalzburg* »_...it's very important that you measure rotor thickness and make sure it's at or above minimum thickness...

I think that is the key point to the whole discussion - if brake pads need to be replaced, then rotor thickness (and rotor runout) should be measured. Runout refers to any deviation from perfectly flat on both sides of the rotor.
If there is no runout, and the remaining thickness of the rotor is greater than 50% of the available service wear, then (personally) I think that the pads could be replaced and the original rotor could remain in service.
If the remaining rotor thickness is less than 50% of the available service wear, then any discussion of putting the rotor on a lathe and machining it - or even leaving a perfectly flat rotor in place - is academic, not practical. This is because it is reasonable to predict that the rotor will reach its service wear limit before the newly installed pads wear out - which means that it is kind of pointless to leave the rotor in place, it would make better economic sense to replace the rotor at the same time that new pads are installed.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I went up to my VW dealer (Volkswagen Richmond Hill) this afternoon to collect some additional information about brakes on the Phaeton. The Phaeton technician, Mark, and his apprentice, Blake, very kindly offered to take a front wheel off my car and show me how the whole brake system works. I learned a great deal from my visit - hopefully I can pass some of that information on here.
All VW brake discs (rotors) have the minimum service thickness either cast into the side of the rotor, or laser-engraved on the side of the rotor. The front brake rotors on a NAR Phaeton are 34 mm thick when they are new, and the allowable wear limit is 31 mm. You can see the wear limit cast into the middle of the rotor in the third photo, below.
*Front Brake Assembly*
























To properly evaluate the condition of the brakes, three measurements must be taken: 
*1)* The thickness of the disc,
*2)* Runout (deviation from flat) of the disc, and;
*3)* The remaining thickness of the brake pad.
I managed to get some good photos of the first two measurements, but forgot to take a picture showing how to measure the brake pad thickness. It is quite easy to measure the pad thickness, you just use a vernier caliper. The photos below show how to measure the disc thickness and runout.
*Put the micrometer on the disc, and note the reading*








*(Normally the reading is observed with the micrometer still on the disc)*
This is the thickness of my front left disc after 16,000 miles of use.








*Next, the runout gauge is attached to the brake caliper*








*The disc is rotated until the lowest point is found, and then the dial is set to zero*
The easiest way to rotate the disc is to just turn the wheel on the opposite side.








*The disc is then turned several times until the highest point is found.*
The disc on my car has 3/1000 of an inch of runout (.076 mm)








None of us could find any limit for runout published in the VW service documentation. However, the amount of runout on this disc seems to be insignificant when compared with the amount of runout allowed for an aircraft brake disc.
The last thing to measure is the thickness of the brake pad. A new pad is 13 mm thick. The warning light on the instrument cluster comes on when the pad has worn down to 3 mm thickness, and the minimum allowable thickness for safe operation is 2 mm. The pad is measured while still in place using a vernier caliper (this is what I forgot to take the picture of). You can see in the photo below that the pad on my car is about 1 cm thick.
*Brake Pad*








Many thanks to Mark, Blake, and Blaine for all their help putting this post together.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I also asked what could cause brakes to squeak or squeal. It seems there are several different causes. The brake pad could be either worn down to limits, or wearing in an irregular manner.
It is also possible that the metal splash guard that is on the inboard side of the brake disc could be bent (perhaps due to hitting something on the road) and rubbing up against the disc. The photos below show the splash guard.
*Splash Guard on Inboard Side of Brake Disc*








*Note normal gap between splash guard and disc*








*View from lower aft area*








Brake vibration can be caused by small amounts of anti-corrosion compound (which is applied to the rotor when it is manufactured) still remaining on the disc. In some cases this may also cause a noise. This is uncommon, however, VW has issued a technical bulletin explaining how to remove any residual coating. It is quite easy to check a Phaeton brake disc to see if any of this coating remains - just look at the disc through the holes in the wheel. Normally this problem is only encountered during the first week or two of ownership. The technical bulletin describing how to resolve this problem is attached to the bottom of this post.
It is important that the bolts that hold the wheel on the car are tightened by hand, using a torque wrench. The bolts fit directly into the brake disc, and if they are overtorqued, or not torqued in the correct 'star' pattern, the disc could be slightly deformed. This would result in diminished performance and uneven disc wear.
*Note that the wheel bolt fits directly into the brake disc*








This is why the wheel bolts need to be tightened using a torque measuring device (torque wrench, or torque measuring adapter on air gun)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:* Related topic - Opinions wanted about aftermarket brake pads


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Just to keep all the brake related photos in one place - below are photos of the standard front brake assembly for NAR W12 Phaetons and V8 Phaetons worldwide (the smaller brake), and the standard front brake assembly for the W12 and V10 TDI in ROW markets.
The larger brakes are used on the heavier Phaetons outside of NAR because the top speeds of these cars are higher outside of NAR. There would be no benefit from installing the larger brake on the NAR Phaetons - the only difference would be a significant increase in the cost of overhauling the larger brakes.
Michael
*NAR Front Brake - W12 and V8*
used worldwide on all V8 Phaetons








*ROW Front Brake* 
Used outside of NAR for W12 and V10 TDI Phaetons


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: time for breaks (PanEuropean)*

Michael - If you look at your picture, the interlocking circles of the Audi Logo appear to be on the component above your rotor. Is VW using interchangeable parts on the Phaeton with Audi?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: time for breaks (murphybaileysam)*

It's kind of hard to read anything specific into the logo of any one of the VW group companies (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, etc.) appearing on a part. It could be that the same part is used on an Audi car, or, it could be that one of Audi's subcontractors manufactures that part specifically for the Phaeton. I've seen some parts in my Phaeton that have Seat or Skoda logos on them, even though it is obvious that the part could never be used in a Seat or a Skoda, because those products are much smaller vehicles.
Maybe a better way to look at the question, from a parts point of view, is that any VW AG product could have a part on it that is made by any subcontractor to the group, or, the part could also be used on any other carline of the group. For example, the rear spoiler controller on a Bentley Continental GT has a VW logo on it, because it is (essentially) the same thing as the rear spoiler controller for the New Beetle Turbo. The functionality might be different, though, because the GT has a higher top speed than the NB Turbo - at least, outside of NAR, anyway.
Michael


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## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Phaeton Brakes*

18.5K and I need new brakes on my front wheels. They will cost $860.00 for pads and rotors. It's expensive to stop this beast:~( The good news is that I got a check pad warning on my infotainment system so I brought it in early for my 2K. The infotainment system has also been acting up in the last few weeks and they need to replace the battery. This car is an energy hog. Boring post I know, but the new guys need to know what to expect.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton Brakes (bobm)*

I guess much depends on the ratio of city to highway driving, the geography (hilly or flat) and the individual style. My VW dealer inspected my brakes - again - when I brought my Phaeton in for the 32,000 km (20K mile) service last week. They didn't bother to measure them, because there was no apparent change from what you see in the photos above. The tech estimated I would get between 50 and 70K miles out of the original pads and rotors, based on how I have used the car so far.
Michael


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*squeeking brakes*

My brakes squeek right when I hit the pedal, or just when the car comes to a complete stop. It is not a continuous squeek. Is this normal, and what do others experience, if anything?


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: squeeking brakes (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_My brakes squeek right when I hit the pedal, or just when the car comes to a complete stop. It is not a continuous squeek. 

Mine too now with 21,000 miles or so. The squeek started before the new wheels were installed so that's not it.


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: squeeking brakes (Paldi)*

I just turned over 34k miles.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: squeeking brakes (dzier)*

David,
I'm inclined to say the squeak, while not "normal", is most likely nothing to be concerned about. 
Frequently, I find brake noise of the nature you described is a result of brake dust buildup on the components. Taking the vehicle to a DIY carwash and carefully power rinsing the bits behind the rims usually does the trick.
Be forewarned, however, you now have four very wet brakes. Stopping is going to be a bit dodgy (i.e., longer than you normally expect) until they dry out, so plan accordingly.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: squeeking brakes (dzier)*

Hi David:
Different things can cause the brakes to make a squeaking or squealing noise. There is more information about this on an existing post entitled "Brake Service, Overhaul, Brake Pad and Disc Replacement" - so, to keep all the information together, I am going to merge this new discussion into that existing thread.
Michael


----------



## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton Brakes (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I guess much depends on the ratio of city to highway driving, the geography (hilly or flat) and the individual style.... The tech estimated I would get between 50 and 70K miles out of the original pads and rotors, based on how I have used the car so far.
Michael

43,000 miles and the brakes are looking good. I do mostly highway driving and live in a very flat area. I think I could get 70k miles out of them. However, my brother-in-law drives his Phaeton mostly city and in the mountains of central PA. He has 12,000 miles on his vehicle and his brakes look worse.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: squeeking brakes (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note: *
A discussion about the time interval (2 years) that applies to changing brake fluid - Flushing the brake fluid?
A discussion about the air scoop on the front brake assembly: Front Brake Air Scoop


_Modified by PanEuropean at 1:54 AM 3-10-2007_


----------



## blevinson (Oct 9, 2005)

*Price for brakes?*

At my 40,000 mile service I was told my front and rear brakes are at 20%. What have people been paying for brakes in the Chicago area?


----------



## blevinson (Oct 9, 2005)

*Re: Price for brakes? (blevinson)*

I would also like to know what people think about the need for new rotors. One dealership said I would need just pads and another dealer said they always change the rotors.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Price for brakes? (blevinson)*

Hi Brian:
I can't help you with the pricing information, because I live in a different country (Canada), besides, I have not yet needed to get brakes serviced. The last time my brakes were inspected (30K miles), both front and rears had about 70% pad material still remaining. As you can probably guess, I mostly use the car for highway trips.
The question of replacing rotors at the same time as pads has come up before. Here's the 'executive summary':
- most car manufacturers now make rotors of lighter, thinner material, to reduce unsprung weight.
- the design life of the rotor is the same as the design life of the pad.
- new design rotors _can_ still be turned on a lathe, but very little material will be left once the rotors are turned. Thus, their life expectancy will be greatly reduced.
- sometimes, the rotor will still be within service specs (still thick enough) when the pads are replaced. But, it is unlikely it will have more than 50% of remaining wear still available. Thus it is pointless to change the pads only, because the rotor will wear out before the newly installed pads have worn out.
If you would like to review the previous discussions, complete with photos, etc., please click here: Brake Service, Overhaul, Brake Pad and Disc Replacement.
Michael


----------



## W12Dave (Feb 10, 2006)

*Installing new brakes.*

My "check brake pad" light came on recently and it seems I need to replace the front brakes. What I was wondering is if I can order the parts myself and have my good friend who owns a repair shop install them. I don't claim to know that much about the mechanics of cars so I wanted to see if this was something that could be done by someone other than the VW dealership. Also, how much are the parts since I have to buy pads and rotors?
Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (W12Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *W12Dave* »_My "check brake pad" light came on recently and it seems I need to replace the front brakes. What I was wondering is if I can order the parts myself and have my good friend who owns a repair shop install them. I don't claim to know that much about the mechanics of cars so I wanted to see if this was something that could be done by someone other than the VW dealership. Also, how much are the parts since I have to buy pads and rotors?
Any help would be appreciated.

I don't see why your local repair shop can't do the work. These brakes are rather large but no different (as far as I know) than other VW brakes that have sensors built into them. Remember that you're replacing the pads and rotors but not the calipers so you're not getting involved with the hydraulics at all. Not that that would necessarily be a show stopper anyway.
When my turn comes I'm planning to have my shop's mechanic do mine.
BTW, depending on how good a friend he or she is, you might want them to order the parts as s/he will get the wholesale discount from VW or whomever they get them from. 
I like to hear from anyone who has used non-OEM pads (perhaps ceramic) to hear about their results. I'm dying to find a way to maintain the great braking characteristics while lowering the massive amount of brake dust.


----------



## mrAW11 (Mar 8, 2007)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (W12Dave)*

not to be an ass about things, but i doubt your friend is dying to work on a volkwagen let alone a phaeton. hell, i fix volkswagens all day and i hate working on phaetons. since you shelled out for a phaeton, you might as well shell out to have someone fix it who knows something about phaetons. again, not trying to be too big of an ass, but i certainly come across as one


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (W12Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_I don't see why your local repair shop can't do the work...

I agree with Steven, it is a very straightforward job, and I can't think of any reason why a competent technician could not do it for you. I have watched the techs at my VW dealer replace brake pads and discs on Phaetons, and they have told me that there is nothing unusual about the whole process.
You might want to draw your friend's attention to the need to use the corrosion preventing wax when mounting the wheels - there is a post about it here: Corrosion Prevention Precautions when removing and replacing Phaeton wheels. The spray can of wax can be ordered along with the rotors and the pads.
Just in case your friend does not have a Phaeton Repair Manual handy, here are the torque specifications for the various components that are involved in brake servicing:
Wheel bolt to wheel hub - all 4 wheels: *120 Nm*
Front Wheel Components








Small keeper screw, item 2 - *4 Nm*
Hex bolt, item 4 - *22.5 Nm*
Hex washer bolt, item 13 - *190 Nm* (needs to be replaced - one time use only)
Guide pins, item 15 - *30 Nm*
The original thickness of the front disc is 34 mm, the wear limit is 31 mm (this should be engraved on the disc itself), they need to be replaced in pairs, meaning, both fronts or both rears at the same time.
Rear Wheel Components








Self-locking hex bolt, item 1 - *35 Nm* 
Phillips-head screw, item 5 - *4 Nm*
Hex bolt, item 7 - *90 Nm plus an additional 90° 1/4 turn* (needs to be replaced - one time use only)
The original thickness of the rear disc is 22 mm, the wear limit is 20 mm.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (Spectral)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spectral* »_So all new pads and rotors will cost about $1000-$1500 at a VW dealer? Is that correct? 

There are details about the prices of the consumable parts (pads, rotors, etc.) on the first page of this discussion.
Michael


----------



## Traveller (Jan 6, 2006)

*Brake pads*

how often do you change brake pads?


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Price for brakes? (blevinson)*

I just had my fronts done at The Autobarn in Evanston. Total cost (including new pads and rotors) was about $775, after using a coupon I got in the mail - without that, it would have been over $800. I had about 31K miles on it, mostly suburban highway driving. My change brake message hadn't yet come up, but the service manager had told me at the last service that it would be soon, and I had the car in for some warranty work, so I got the brakes done at the same time.
BTW, with the included service for my wife's BMW, brake work is covered during the 4 year service period.


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## W12Dave (Feb 10, 2006)

I'm at the repair shop right now and I'm waiting on my car. He owns Volkswagens and is familiar with them so that's why I use him. He told me I really don't need to replace the rotors (as 1 dealer told me as well). I do have to replace ALL 4 sets of pads though. I am being charged 1 hour of labor ($90) plus wholesale cost of brake pads. That sure beats the $850 the dealer was asking for to replace JUST the front brakes and rotors.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (W12Dave)*

An hour's worth of labour to replace brake pads at all four corners is an absolute steal -- you'd better be buying him lunch or drinks or something...


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## TurboJewUrS4 (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: time for breaks (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_Michael - If you look at your picture, the interlocking circles of the Audi Logo appear to be on the component above your rotor. Is VW using interchangeable parts on the Phaeton with Audi?

Many VW/Audi parts have both the Audi and VW logos on them. They've been sharing parts like this for a long time. It wouldnt surprise me if those rotors were also used on an A8.


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## brezle (Feb 22, 2007)

*Re: (Kreivi)*

My "check brake pads" warning just came on about 3 days ago in my 2004 V8 NAR - how much time would that leave me before needing to get it in for service? (estimate of # of days?)

_Quote, originally posted by *Kreivi* »_It did not sound too expensive at all, but there seems to be about 40% of 'air' in those service dept. prices compared to if you just order the same parts online.
Front brakes: 
Rotor 128 USD
Pads 140 USD
Rear brakes:
Rotor 85 USD
Pads 55USD
Brake component prices seem to have come down quite nicely in a year. I was looking at the Touareg brake component prices a year ago, and those were roughly twice what they are now. 

Also - if I can bring all these parts into VW myself, that should significantly lower the cost of the entire brake job. Anyone recommend a good place to order these parts?
Thanks!


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## brezle (Feb 22, 2007)

*Re: (brezle)*

As a follow up to my above post - my VW service dept. said that, at least in Atlanta, their experience with Phaeton brake pads was that all four pads wear evenly, so it is likely that all four need to be replaced. On the other hand, they said that they typically do not have to replace or turn the rotors. If that is the case, I am curious why I was quoted about $1000 USD just to replace 4 pads...
Since I doubt there is $600 worth of labor in replacing 4 pads, wouldn't I be better off spending about $400 buying the components myself and asking them to do the labor?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brezle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brezle* »_I am curious why I was quoted about $1000 USD just to replace 4 pads...

Ask them the question directly. It is a reasonable question - ask what parts will be required, and what the cost of the parts will be. I don't think that the labour cost (time required to carry out the brake service) will be significantly different than the time required to carry out brake service on any other car.
Michael


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (brezle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brezle* »_Since I doubt there is $600 worth of labor in replacing 4 pads, wouldn't I be better off spending about $400 buying the components myself and asking them to do the labor? 

I'd be pretty surprised if a VW dealer will install your brake parts. Let us know what they say.


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## Spectral (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: (brezle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brezle* »_My "check brake pads" warning just came on about 3 days ago in my 2004 V8 NAR - how much time would that leave me before needing to get it in for service? (estimate of # of days?) Also - if I can bring all these parts into VW myself, that should significantly lower the cost of the entire brake job. Anyone recommend a good place to order these parts?
Thanks!

I don't think that it is extremely urgent for you to get your brakes replaced. If the brakes still stop the car safely, you will be fine for a while. I can't give you a time period, but if I were you, I'd replace the brakes within thirty days. 
In response to your next post. I doubt your VW dealer will allow you to bring your own parts. I would definately ask them before you order parts. An independent shop might be more accomodating.
It is interesting that your VW dealer will replace the pads without replacing the rotors. Most won't do that.
I have replaced the pads and kept the original rotors on other cars, but have usually been disappointed with the eventual results. Vibration tends to develop after just a few thousand miles.



_Modified by Spectral at 9:04 PM 4-3-2007_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (brezle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brezle* »_My "check brake pads" warning just came on about 3 days ago in my 2004 V8 NAR - how much time would that leave me before needing to get it in for service? (estimate of # of days?)

I would not wait too long before before replacing the pads if you're not going to have the rotors replaced. If you wear past the pad material to the metal on the pad and this grinds the rotors, you will be replacing the rotors as well. And the rotors cost a lot more than the pads!


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## CyanSunday (Oct 7, 2004)

what exactly is "jack mode" when talking about the phaeton? i am assuming it has to do with the presence of an air suspension system but the old land rovers were the last cars i saw that had such a feature.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (CyanSunday)*

Hi Shawn,
Look at this link. It will explain everything. "Jack Mode."
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2230724
Regards,
Brent


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## CyanSunday (Oct 7, 2004)

thanks for that link. i have removed and re-installed all 4 wheels several times for cleaning purposes and i have never done that. i can't say i've ever noticed the car attempting to adapt to my actions but thats good info to have! its also a bit funny because i worked on cayennes for a long time and never saw anything like that in the porsche manuals. +1 for the phaeton!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (CyanSunday)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CyanSunday* »_...what exactly is "jack mode" when talking about the Phaeton?

The most simple answer to the question is that invoking 'Jack Mode' turns off the air suspension system. Once the air suspension system has been turned off, it will not attempt to react when you jack up a wheel, or lift the entire car on a hydraulic lift. If you don't turn the suspension system off before you lift the car, the car behaves much like a cat when you lift it up by holding it under its belly - it keeps extending the suspension in an attempt to keep the wheels on the ground.
The post that Brent referenced explains how to invoke Jack Mode. You really don't have to be too concerned about turning Jack Mode off once you are finished your work - the car will automatically turn the suspension system back on again once the speedometer detects movement faster than about 5 MPH.
It is common to see a warning that says "Suspension Fault - Workshop" after you have lifted the car. You can clear this warning very easily by just pressing the "ride height" button, then selecting the highest ride height. This will cause the car to move all the air shock absorbers to a known reference height (that which is used for the highest setting). Once they have all moved to the highest setting, the warning message will go away. You can then re-select the normal ride height and drive away.
Michael


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## speckhead (Dec 13, 2005)

*Re: Price for brakes? (blevinson)*

I just paid 1485 at Liberty VW in Libertyville for 4 new brakes. Gave me a loaner, too!
Liberty Bill ROCKS!


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## brezle (Feb 22, 2007)

*Brake Change Salvation*

I can't remember where all the discussion on brake service is contained, so I just started a new post. Feel free to quarantine this appropriately...
I managed to save a substantial amount of money on changing pads for NAR phaetons and wanted to share what I did - for the good of the forum, of course.
A friend of mine who does mechanical engineering for Bosch (and who was key in developing the newer ESP systems on all our Phaetons and Audis), directed me to a company in Michigan that specializes in Audi and VW parts sales.
They are called BLAUfergnugen (no joke) and their site is http://www.blauparts.com - they can sell you most OEM VW and Audi mechanical components at the lowest prices I've found. (Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with or have a financial interest in Blaufergnugen, just trying to help others on here save a buck).
Anyways, after being quoted $1000-$1200 to change my pads (and rotors in some cases) from various VW dealerships and auto shops. I decided to order a set of pads for all four wheels from Blauparts, which cost me about $250, including shipping ($160 for the front pads, $69 for the rear, I think). I then took those to the VW dealership, who said labor would be about 2.5 hrs, so all in all, for a full brake pad change, it'll cost me roughly $550. Seems like a pretty simple way to keep about $600 in your pocket. 
NOTE: blauparts.com doesn't keep the phaeton brake components in stock very often so you won't find them in their online catalog. But if you call in, which is what I did, they can order them and have them shipped to you in about 1-2 days. 
My two cents anyways..


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

I've gotten parts for my Audi from Blauparts and they are actually located in Wisconsin.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (maverixz)*

Photos re-hosted.


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## Phaeton Guy (Nov 17, 2005)

Are there wear indicators on the front pads or only the rear?


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: (Phaeton Guy)*


_Quote »_I decided to order a set of pads for all four wheels from Blauparts, which cost me about $250, including shipping ($160 for the front pads, $69 for the rear, I think). I then took those to the VW dealership, who said labor would be about 2.5 hrs, so all in all, for a full brake pad change, it'll cost me roughly $550. Seems like a pretty simple way to keep about $600 in your pocket. 


Yeah, I did something very similar. I got some iRotors (kinda like quasi-brembo replicas, slotted and drilled) for the Phaeton, which desperately needed a break job when I bought it. I paid $550 for front/back rotors and pads and had an independent (Specialized in AUDI-VW only) shop to put them in. (As Michael mentioned a while back, I didn't want to show up with my own parts at the dealer!) and about $150 in labor. All in all, $700. However, they lost my 'brake cap covers'







but they will replace them this week. As it turns out, those covers are VW specific, so they are buying them from the dealer. 
ETA: I also get a very early morning brake squeak, that goes away after the car warms up. It is annoying though and it started with the new breaks. Hope it goes away soon.


_Modified by ciscokidinsf at 5:19 PM 3-25-2008_


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## jeffe51 (Aug 8, 2008)

*Brake pad & rotor replacement*

Does anyone know if replacement costs are covered under the maintenance plan?
Thanks


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (jeffe51)*

No. I suspect the only way they would be covered is if it was a premature failure due to defect, etc. I just replaced the front pads and rotors on mine at 38K. I did it myself for a total parts cost of around $400. If you've done this kind of work before, the Phaeton is no different, just bigger.


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## maseratiman (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (jeffe51)*

No, they're not covered in the maintenance plan. I just had my front pads and rotors replaced with OEM parts by my VW dealer at a cost of just over $600 total (parts and labor).


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## jeffe51 (Aug 8, 2008)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (jeffe51)*

I was just quoted a price of $984 parts and labor; front pads & rotors.
I also questioned the wear sensors; I have had no indication of wear.
They said the wear sensor lights at 2/32 on the pads and that they are at 3/32; therefore no light.
I hate parting with money, but do drive the car a bit hard and would like to remain safe.


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (maseratiman)*

That was a great price. I got quoted over $1000 here in Chicago. For $200 I probably wouldn't bother with it myself. $600, i'll do it.


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (Stinky999)*

i really am suprized at the one grand for the front pads and rotors. i paid about $350 for parts and $200 labor to have a local shop do the job. the $600 quote seems more in line with reason. the rears are a bit cheaper as the pads are smaller and thus less expensive.


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (calmone)*

VW doesn't want Phaeton owners to feel "slighted" in comparison to other luxury vehicles. Example; I was quoted $1400 by a Land Rover dealer 5 years ago to do f/r brakes (pads & rotors) on a '00 Range Rover...and those rotors weren't even as substantial as the Phaeton's!


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## mbarrow67 (Dec 3, 2006)

*Re: Brake pad & rotor replacement (Stinky999)*

For the information of those in the UK, I was quoted £980 for full replacement of front and rear pads and rotors on my v10 LWB. I don't know how long they've been on, but I've had the car for 35k miles, and they certainly looked 'bedded in' when I bought it!
At the advice of a friend who specialises in brake upgrades (and following a minor bump last summer in my other Phaeton becasue I couldn't stop as quickly as the TT in front that performed a needless emergency stop), I've decided to fit the standard VW rotors again, but with EBC YellowStuff pads (the new road-safe version, not the old race-only version - although the car spends most of it's life at high/very high speeds on the motorway), for increased brake friction and longer life. 
This will cost:
£411 for rotors (from VW)
£245 for pads (from A to Z Motor Spares in Wakefield)
£268 for labour if I go to a VW main dealer, or £125 if I go to my local garage.
So it works out only marginally cheaper, but will hopefully stop much more quickly.
Now for the question - Michael mentions some one-time use hex bolts in the post above, does anybody know whether these need to be replaced in a pad/disc replacement, or only if the brakes and pistons are fully disassembled? Does anybody know the uk part number or a more detailed description of these? Are they a common thing that a local garage would have, or are they a VW or Phaeton specific part?


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## mbarrow67 (Dec 3, 2006)

P.S. this is the post from Michael that I was asking about:
Wheel bolt to wheel hub - all 4 wheels: 120 Nm
Front Wheel Components
Small keeper screw, item 2 - 4 Nm
Hex bolt, item 4 - 22.5 Nm
Hex washer bolt, item 13 - 190 Nm (needs to be replaced - one time use only)
Guide pins, item 15 - 30 Nm
The original thickness of the front disc is 34 mm, the wear limit is 31 mm (this should be engraved on the disc itself), they need to be replaced in pairs, meaning, both fronts or both rears at the same time.
Rear Wheel Components
Self-locking hex bolt, item 1 - 35 Nm 
Phillips-head screw, item 5 - 4 Nm
Hex bolt, item 7 - 90 Nm plus an additional 90° 1/4 turn (needs to be replaced - one time use only)
The original thickness of the rear disc is 22 mm, the wear limit is 20 mm.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (mbarrow67)*

Here are the torque specifications for the bolts that hold the wheels on the car:
*30 N·m* (the initial tightening force, when the wheel is off the ground) is *22 lbf-ft.*
*120 N·m* (the final tightening force, when the wheel is on the ground) is *88 lbf-ft.*
Michael


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## perryk (May 3, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Is it true that if the rear pads wear down too far that the calipers won't be able to be pushed back.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (perryk)*

Hi Kelvin,
There is a special brake piston tool that helps with the rear. I can't remember the all the details, but just ask Geoff at http://alretta.com/ and he'll give you all the info.
Regards,
Brent


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## Reflect (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: (W126C)*

Brent,
I just realized this company you speak of its in my area. I will give him a call since I love your brakes setup in your w12.
Hows price?


----------



## perryk (May 3, 2009)

*Re: (W126C)*

thanx for the info I got the calipers pushed back now using the brake caliper tool.


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: (W126C)*

Humm, I haven't done the brakes on the Phaeton but I did purchase a special brake piston tool for my Audi. I wonder if that will work?


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (ruddyone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruddyone* »_Humm, I haven't done the brakes on the Phaeton but I did purchase a special brake piston tool for my Audi. I wonder if that will work? 

It should. Some calipers require that the piston be rotated as it is pushed back into the caliper. That's what the tool does.
Steven


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re:*

Usually I drive my Phaeton every 3-4 days, every day the car is washed. So the rotors are corroded and become brown or orange. Driving for first few miles the brakes produce a pulsing effect which I used to feel on every car, then it becomes normal.
Last week the pulsing feel of the brakes was still there at high speeds. 
My car is 2004 ROW V8 (1ZL (17in) brakes on the front & 1KP (17in) on the rear) with 27,000km. No brakes pads warring so far. 
Does that means the rotors are worn but the pads are not? Can this happen because of the frequent wash and corrosion? 
I’m really confused


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Re: (Kuwaity)*

Apparently, brake pulsing appears more frequently on automatic cars than on manual transmission cars.
The theory behind this is the following...
When you brake to a full stop, the brakes heat up, and on an automatic car, once you have stopped, you must keep the foot on the pedal so that the car does not go forward...
And the problem lies there. The iron used for the discs is usually quite pure and soft (which is a reason why it corrodes within minutes when exposed to simple water). Brake pads contain carbon that will transfer to the iron of the discs when they are hot (a long time ago, blacksmiths used to apply horn on red hot metal to transfer some carbon in the iron and turn it locally into steel, which is a much harder metal).
As for blacksmiths, the carbon that transfers from the pads to the discs has the effect of locally turning the soft iron of the discs into much harder steel. After a while, if the process is not even around the disc, some areas are much harder than others, and discs don't wear out evenly.
This happens to a lesser extent on non-automatic cars, because you don't NEED to always keep your foot on the brake pedal when you are stopped at a traffic light.
In order to avoid this, whenever I think of it, I try to switch to neutral and take my foot off the brake pedal, until it is green again...
Now, I don't know whether this is what happened on your car, of course...
P.


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: (Zaphh)*

Well, may be you are right but (in my theory) the irregular wear on my rotors happened because the area of the rotor that was exposed to the water splash became easier to wear out than the non-corroded sector of the rotor.
I drove the car today; I couldn’t feel any pulsing at low speed. Last time pulsing only happens at high speed.

I remembered my VR5 Jetta, which I sold it after sever 180,000 km and 10 years. It was very good car that even with really worn rotors, there was no sign of pulsing or noise except at the end of pads life (metal to metal noise). I have never replaced the rotors or the brake fluid. The brakes stopping power was superb until I sold it. I wish that the phaeton would be the same….


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Zaphh) (Kuwaity)*

Zaphh, Kuwaity:
Thanks to both of you for your very enlightening observations about why we sometimes encounter pulsation when braking.
I don't know much about the technical side of this, but I can contribute my own experience - whenever I go away from Canada for a few weeks (and thus the car is not used for a few weeks), I encounter pulsing for the first few hundred kilometers that I drive the car once I get back. I live within one km of the ocean, so, this tends to support the 'corrosion while sitting still' theory.
When I first encountered this, I took the car to the VW dealer and told them that I thought that the brake system needed servicing. The technician called me and told me that I had over 80% remaining on all of the pads and rotors, and that the brakes did not require any parts replacement of any kind. But... he could not explain the pulsing. 
I drove the car for a couple of weeks (it takes me at least 2 weeks to accumulate 100 km) and the pulsing eventually went away. I am in the Congo at the moment - when I get home, the car will have been sitting unused for 2 weeks - so, it will be interesting to see if the brakes pulse again. They did not pulse when drove the car to the airport about 10 days ago.
I guess that not many people (in North America at least) leave their vehicles parked for several weeks at a time. 
Michael


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Re: (Kuwaity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kuwaity* »_Usually I drive my Phaeton every 3-4 days, every day the car is washed.


Do you mean that you wash the car even when you don't drive it ?









_Quote »_
So the rotors are corroded and become brown or orange. Driving for first few miles the brakes produce a pulsing effect which I used to feel on every car, then it becomes normal.
Last week the pulsing feel of the brakes was still there at high speeds. 
My car is 2004 ROW V8 (1ZL (17in) brakes on the front & 1KP (17in) on the rear) with 27,000km. No brakes pads warring so far. 
Does that means the rotors are worn but the pads are not? Can this happen because of the frequent wash and corrosion? 
I’m really confused










The minimum width for the front discs is written on the center of the disc (31 mm ? can't remember, but if you remove the wheel, it's written there).
Now, Michael or anyone else: what is the minimum thickness for the rear discs ?
Another question: I'm really bothered with brake pad dust... The next time I change my pads, I wonder whether some pads (that would be compatible with the Phaeton) exist that would create a dust that would not be so black...
Are there white or grayish brake pads around ?
P.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Zaphh)*

There are about 4 different specifications for both the front and the rear discs (rotors) - the diameter and thickness of the disc will vary based on the engine used in the car.
So, except for North America, where all Phaetons use the same front and rear discs, it is not possible to say what the original thickness and the minimum thickness is.
Michael


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Ok. I have a ROW V8. But other owners of other flavours of the car may want to know what their rear rotors minimal thicknesses is, so maybe we could recap this somewhere...
But is the information lying somewhere ? (why isn't it written at the center of the rotors, like in the front ?)
P.


----------



## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: Re: (Zaphh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zaphh* »_
Do you mean that you wash the car even when you don't drive it ?








P.

No. There is one guy who is responsible to wash my cars every day except Fridays.
ROW V8 Phaeton equipped with different front brake compared to NAR V8. I think we can find the minimum thickness on the rotor itself. I’ve got precision caliper, but I don’t have a micrometer at the moment to measure the overall thickness.
Yesterday I drove it for 70km, I can say now that the pulsing only appears at high speed and heavy braking.


----------



## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Kuwaity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kuwaity* »_
No. There is one guy who is responsible to wash my cars every day except Fridays.


Does he have a brother that would like to come to Kansas? I'll even give him Friday and Saturday off.








Regards,
Brent


----------



## Samhain35 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: Re: (W126C)*

Hey everyone - my 2005 V8 has about 51k on the clock and my "check brake pads" warning came on a couple of weeks ago. I do about 90% highway driving. Is this imminent or do I have some time to schedule my brake service?
No funny noises or anything (yet).
Thank you.


----------



## Solipsism12 (Feb 18, 2008)

*Re: Re: (Samhain35)*

Your mileage and type of driving is similar to mine - I've got just over 53k miles on my '05 and have a 70 mile round-trip commute with about 85% of it being on suburban interstate. My check pads warning came on about a week ago. As it happens, I had to pull a rear wheel over the weekend - the rear brakes had plenty of meat left on the pads, wearing, but not in need of immediated replacement. As a cross-check, I pulled the opposite front wheel. The front pads did appear to be down close to the 3/32" point, so it seems that it is time for a brake job. I'll be doing both pads and rotors, so I'm not too worried about getting to the metal on the fronts, but expect the work will get done before that occurs.


----------



## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: Pad Replacement Only*

I hadn't noticed this old post until now when it came back up to the top of the list. I have read through most of the post.
I just wanted to mention that both my front and rear pads were replaced at 40K service. The dealership did recommend rotor replacement and I decided to go the cheaper route. I'll try to report back and let folks know if this was a mistake to not replace rotors too. The tech did take the car out for a drive to try and properly seat the pads. I have only put about 2K miles on the car since the pads were changed out.
Robert


----------



## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Checking the options for my car for the front disc brakes is 1ZL and rear disc brakes is 1KP, meaning my front discs are 12 inches and 30 mm ?, that's weird because it's a NAR car, they should be the bigger ones ??








Also checking the CPO certification report it says:
*
- Front Rotors: New = 30 mm, Limit = 28 mm, Current = 29 mm
- Rear Rotors: New = 22 mm, Limit = 20 mm, Current = 21 mm
*
Their information does not match the specs discussed here ??








I checked ALLDATAdiy.com information, and for the Front Rotors there are 2 options for a V8:
*
- HP-2 (Diameter = 323 mm, Thickness = 30 mm, Wear Limit = 28 mm)
- 2FNR 42 AL (Diameter = 360 mm, Thickness = 34 mm, Wear Limit = 31 mm)
*
The information from All Data match the CPO report.
I know Brakes were changed at 50,000 miles (previous owner, I bought the car with 74,000 miles), maybe the previous dealer installed the wrong ones ?, smaller size means cheaper ones ?


_Modified by brosen at 10:57 PM 8-16-2009_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brosen)*

I think it is unlikely that a NAR specification V8 would have the 360mm rotors. But, that is an opinion, not a fact.
Michael


----------



## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (brosen)*

UPDATE:
Today I removed the wheel and measured the Rotor (Disc), *I have 1.300 in = 33 mm* (I measured inside the disc, to avoid the disc lip), I would say that's pretty good considering the disc was changed 25,000 miles ago and I still have 67% of disc life remaining. I took some pictures of the disc and pads, I was not able to measure the pads I do not have the tool, but they seem to be pretty decent, what do you think ?


































































_Modified by brosen at 8:49 PM 8-17-2009_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brosen)*

Looks like you have lots and lots of life left in there.
Michael


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*How to change brake pads?*

Would somebody who's actually done the job care to post some detailed instructions on how to change the pads (and rotors?)? I've changed pads & rotors on numerous occasions on the Impala I previously owned (it was cheap motoring!), but when the wheels were off my Phaeton for a tyre change, I couldn't see how to get the pads out/in. The Impala required the removal of one pin to allow the top of the caliper pivot, and my 944 Turbo has a spring clip arrangement which is very simple once you know the trick of getting it off.
I'd go to the dealer, but having just been robbed blind by them for front pads ($400+) for a job that probably took them 30 minutes, I'd prefer to do the rears myself.
I don't intend to change rotors, despite having trawled this entire thread, but it'd be useful to know about how to do it (removing the caliper, etc).


----------



## Solipsism12 (Feb 18, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

The site link below will show you what you have to do - even though it is re. Audi A8 - and, believe me, you do want to spend the $25 on the special tool, trying to compress the the piston while rotating it with the lousy little multi-purpose cube thing and a ratchet is not worth the agony, and you sure don't want to try to do the C-clamp and channel-lock method - to begin with, there really isn't a good place on the back of the caliper to rest the fulcrum of the C-clamp - it's all taken up with the parking brake mechanism, which is not sufficiently sturdy for you to be compressing against.
http://www.audipages.com/Tech_....html
Rick


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (Solipsism12)*

Thanks for the link. How certain are you that the caliper assembly is the same on the A8? Visually, it appears to be completely different, and significantly smaller. When I looked (and maybe I just didn't look hard enough), I couldn't even see any caliper pins to undo. There also didn't appear to be any pad wear sensors on the A8.


_Modified by invisiblewave at 8:51 AM 10-5-2009_


----------



## V10Mike (Jan 24, 2007)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

These instructions are fine as far as they go for the rear brakes on a Phaeton, but they do not include the installation and connection of the brake wear warning sensor, and the anti-rattle shims are different. Both are pretty obvious, however, if you take note during disassembly, particularly on the routing of the wear sensor cable.
The Phaeton rotor is located by one Phillips screw, not two socket head screws, and as mentioned above DO invest in the special tool for retracting the caliper piston.
My (non OEM) pad kit came with new M8 self locking bolts (required), new anti-rattle shims and new wear sensors included.


----------



## Solipsism12 (Feb 18, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (V10Mike)*

Yeah - my replacement pads (ATE) also came with new micro-encapsulated self-locking M8 bolts, new anti-rattle shims and wear sensors. 
The wear sensor connection is fairly self-evident, if you take the time to follow the cable and to determine how to properly open the cover on the protector for the wire loom. The method of disconnecting the sensor cable's plug from the socket, which is inside the wire loom protector, is not so self-evident. Unless you've done it or a similar connector before, it may be a bit counter-intuitive, but it's simple enough to figure out.
Two things to bear in mind, depending on how the pad wear sensors are configured - it is important to firmly secure the sensors tightly against the back plate of the brake pad if you don't want to end up getting an early and erroneous warning of pad wear and it is also essential to properly torque both the caliper mount (if you've removed it to replace the disc) and the brake caliper, when you do the reinstallation.
The point of the Audi-DIY link was so that someone could actually see what the base process needed to be - to do repair or maintenance work, one needs to have some mechanical skills, experience and intuition, but the more pictures and photos that are available, the easier it becomes to understand what is required. The line drawings in the Bentley manual are not really sufficient without substantial prior experience.


----------



## Solipsism12 (Feb 18, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

All I can tell you is that, with the exception of the fact that the A8 does not have the rear pad wear warning sensors, both the front calipers (large) and the rear calipers (smaller) were _substantially_ similar to the ones on my 2005 V8, as was the work required to remove and reinstall them. The rear pads are indeed different - they don't have the springs - and they mount in the caliper in a somewhat different manner. The parking brake mechanism on the back (inboard) side of the caliper is different - you shouldn't need to 'fiddle' with it, just don't break it by, for instance, using a C-clamp to compress the caliper piston.
If you've done this kind of project before, it shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish successfully on the Phaeton. If you've never done it before, I'd suggest either partnering with someone whose skills you trust and who has, or biting the bullet and letting the dealer do it.


----------



## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (Solipsism12)*

Recently I found the front rotors (with pads) and the rear rotors (also with pads) on Ebay for a price of less than $ 400.00. 
I did some checking, since the seller was not 100% clear whether the parts would fit and ended up purchasing everything.
So far I have gotten the front rotors and pads. (rotors from TRW and the pads from Jurid)
I started Saturday afternoon to replace the front brakes and it turned out to be quiet easy.
Here are the only little unexpected events. The guide pins for the calipers use a torx socket (used to be allen) and the caliper mounting bracket is attached to the wheel knuckle with a bolt using a 21mm head.
The only real obstacle where both disc securing screws, the ones holding the rotor against the wheel hub. One broke off and the other one I had to drill out.
Since the rotors where the universal type (to fit Audi and VW) there was no mounting hole for 
for those little phillips screws, so I did not repair the threads on the hubs.
Assembly was straight forward and fast.
One note, I saw in this thread that there were concerns regarding the sensing wire being dangle around. No worry, VW supplied a wire guide for the sensor wire. The guide is inserted in the upper guide pin hole.
On a scale of 1 to 10, I would rate this job a 3.5 (using regular and air tools). 
Considering that the little screws are rusted stuck and therefore the need for drilling arrises I would say that the job should take between 2 and 3 h for the front brakes. 
I hope to get the parts for the rear during the week and will report.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (heisenberg2000)*

If you rate a job where you have to drill out a rotor mounting screw as a 3.5, I'd be interested to hear what kind of job you rate as a 10!! How much do you charge for a clutch change on a 944 Turbo??


----------



## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

When I still had my shop, I remember that we once had a 944 with broken bolt on the bell housing. We ended up taking the engine, the torque tube and the (rear) transmission out. That one I would call a 8.5er job. ( I give this one was not a turbo)
A 10 job was on my own car, a 93 Audi V8Q, to get to the side of the bellhousing under the exhaust manifold in order to replace the 2 sensors mounted there.
To drill out the little srews was really easy, since a phillips screw with a messed up center gives the ideal drill guide (provided you have a sharp drill).








Gernot


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
Could you please rehost the pictures that could be found in the following post:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...32879
I am going to have my rear pads/discs/bearings changed by my local garage and would like to get the references of Hex bolt item 7 that needs to be replaced (cf. below)

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Rear Wheel Components








Self-locking hex bolt, item 1 - *35 Nm* 
Phillips-head screw, item 5 - *4 Nm*
Hex bolt, item 7 - *90 Nm plus an additional 90° 1/4 turn* (needs to be replaced - one time use only)
The original thickness of the rear disc is 22 mm, the wear limit is 20 mm.


Thanks,
P.
Ps: btw, any other recommendations for changing the rear bearings ?


----------



## feared (Aug 13, 2009)

Does anyone know about retrofitting carbon/ceramic brakes from the 09? 
Also - just found these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...26646


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (feared)*

FWIW, I bought Carbotech Bobcat 1521 ceramic pads to reduce dust. According to Carbotech, they are compatible with standard discs.
P.


----------



## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: (feared)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feared* »_Does anyone know about retrofitting carbon/ceramic brakes from the 09? 
Also - just found these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...26646

You could always go with movits.
http://www.movitusa.com


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GS340)*

Maybe they should have named them "Stop-its".








Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (Zaphh)*

Hi Michael,
You forgot my request above:

_Quote, originally posted by *Zaphh* »_Hi Michael,
Could you please rehost the pictures that could be found in the following post:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...32879
I am going to have my rear pads/discs/bearings changed by my local garage and would like to get the references of Hex bolt item 7 that needs to be replaced (cf. below)
Thanks,
P.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (Zaphh)*

Hi Pierre:
I am having difficulty re-hosting photos in their original locations, so, here are the two photos that you linked to (from earlier in this same discussion)
*Front Brake Components*


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (PanEuropean)*

*Rear Brake Components*


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (PanEuropean)*

Be aware that the above two illustrations are specific to the brakes fitted to the North American specification vehicles. The brakes fitted to the ROW specification vehicles - especially the V6, V10 and W12 models - may be different.
Michael


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Installing new brakes. (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
Thanks for these sketches.
The part number of these 2 hex bolts seems to be N 909 611 02.
Thanks,
P.
(btw, I have a V8 so the rear assembly should be the good one).


_Modified by Zaphh at 2:46 AM 10-7-2009_


----------



## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: (GS340)*

GS340:
A bunch of questions for you:
- What is special about those calipers and brake pads? 
- Are the pads ceramic? 
- Have you noticed any improvement in stopping distance? 
- Did you buy them locally - MovIt has a 703 Fairfax number?
- Who installed this kit on your car?
- What is an approximate cost level for the kit and labour?
Thank you.
cai


----------



## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: (cai)*

Yes a 703 number!







I'm the east coast dealer and I installed them on my car. We can meet up and you can try them out if you like and/or take a closer look. I'm not a supporting vendor so i'll keep the sales talk offline.
thanks
robert

_Quote, originally posted by *cai* »_GS340:
A bunch of questions for you:
- What is special about those calipers and brake pads? 
- Are the pads ceramic? 
- Have you noticed any improvement in stopping distance? 
- Did you buy them locally - MovIt has a 703 Fairfax number?
- Who installed this kit on your car?
- What is an approximate cost level for the kit and labour?
Thank you.
cai


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (cai)*

One question to all the brake nerds:

_Quote, originally posted by *cai* »_GS340:
...
- Have you noticed any improvement in stopping distance? 
...
cai

Why would changing the brake pads / rotors materials improve on stopping distance ?
It seems to me that as soon as the brakes can stop the wheels, it is then the electronics that deal with the anti blocking system who will determine stopping distance (along with tyre grip), but not the pads/rotors.
Now, of course, if the original pads+rotors are not sufficiently engineered to stop the wheels, changing them may improve things. I see another reason: if the original sets don't evacuate heat fast enough, you will get fading before the car gets to a stop, but again, to me, this would be bad (under) engineering, which I can't imagine being the case when considering the Phaeton.
Am I wrong and if so, could anyone explain my why ?
If I went to ceramic pads, it's just to reduce production of black dust on my rims. I don't count on any stopping distance reduction at all.
P.


----------



## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: (Zaphh)*

You have correctly addressed the various components that contribute to stopping a car. Using my limited knowledge of the dynamics, function, and materials of these components I will try to address your statements:
1- Someone once said that tires, not brake pads, stop a car. Tires certainly play a very important part in arresting the movement of a car. Tires can be made to maximize handling, mileage, comfort, and durability. Some of these traits can be mutually exclusive. In other words, a long lasting tire usually is not a high performance tire and high performance tires are usually not the most comfortable. So, high performance tires that stress handling and braking do perform better in those departments than the rest of the most commonly available tires. In other words, one can improve braking by using certain tires over others.
2- Brake pads are the first level of stopping reaction. You have correctly identified some of the issues with brake pads; such as fading and dust. As with tires, there are several ways of making brake pads. Some stress earlier grabbing, some stress low dust, and some stress low fading. If you look at the brake pads available at Tire Rack, maybe not for the Phaeton but for other high performance car like BMWs, you will see that sometimes the same company offers different levels of brake pads depending on what the owner wants to emphasize. So surely if you want to emphasize stopping power, one can chose a pad that is made to maximize this characteristic. Ceramics have low dust and low fading, but, according to some people in the know, do not offer additional stopping power to normal street cars. These pads seem to shine on the track.
3- Rotors are something else that can be made to maximize stopping power. They can be cross drilled, vented, and grooved for quick heat dissipation. The consensus , again among people in the know, seems to be that one does not gain much, if anything, by using either cross drilled or grooved rotors in normal street cars. 
4- Replacing the calipers may also bring another measure of stopping power if the caliper has more pistons than the one you are replacing. This has to do with a more even application of the brake force on the pad and the rotor. Besides this, red calipers, blue, yellow, black, etc, look good on a car. They give a certain aggressive look to the whole machine without necessarily offering any performance improvement. But, one does not have to advertise that.
5- As to whether the car is under or over engineered, I can not answer that. The designers had certain driving parameters in mind when they designed the car and one of the most obvious is tha fact that the NAR and ROW brakes are different in some models. Maybe our NAR editions were under engineered and we need to make a bit of an improvement. Who knows, but I will keep looking.
So, my point is that by choosing wisely, as the knight told Indiana Jones, one can change the stopping power of an automobile. Choose the correct tires, brake pads, and rotors and one may create a bit of a braking enhancement. Thus my questions.
One of the Brake Nerds


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (heisenberg2000)*

If you rate a job where you have to drill out a rotor mounting screw as a 3.5, I'd be interested to hear what kind of job you rate as a 10!! How much do you charge for a clutch change on a 944 Turbo??


----------



## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

See my response after your first posting.
And I do not have a shop anymore.
Gernot


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (heisenberg2000)*

I only posted it once! Not sure how it appeared twice.


----------



## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

most touaregs and phaetons do nor need new rotors on the first brake job unless they let the pads wear metal to metal.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (Slimjimmn)*

The dealer changed my front pads at 60k. They didn't mention the rotors which surprised me. I read the discussion about it being cost-effective to change the rotors when the pads are changed, which makes sense if you're paying dealer prices for the pads and you don't mind shelling out for the rotors as well all at once. If I'm buying OEM pads and doing the job myself, I think I'd leave the rotors until they needed to be changed.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

*Archival Note: * A related post about changing brake components - Brake Rotor Replacement / Upgrade
Michael


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for that, Michael. Am I missing something when it comes to searching for information here??? The forum has a fantastic amount of useful stuff, but it appears to be very difficult to find much of it. I spent a lot of time searching and reading about brakes, but I didn't come across this.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

Hi Martin:
Probably the best way to quickly find information here on the forum is to go to the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) (a post that is permanently pinned to the top of page 1 of the forum topics list), then use the search function of your *browser *(not Google, not Vortex search) to find words within the forum table of contents that address what you are interested in.
For example, if you go to the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category), press "Control + F" to invoke the 'find' function of your browser, then type the word 'brake', you would find this specific discussion listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category). Most likely your browser will highlight each instance of the word you are searching for, which allows you to quickly skim the appropriate post titles in the forum table of contents.
An alternative method of searching for less common topics (which might not have a discussion listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category)) is to press the 'Google Search' button in the upper right corner of any forum page, then type "Phaeton + xxxxx", where xxxxx represents the criteria you are searching for.
Some general suggestions about criteria: Always use the singular form, never the plural (e.g. search for 'brake', not 'brakes'), try different words when looking for something (e.g. HVAC, Climatronic, air conditioning, cooling if you are searching for cabin climate control), and try using only one word of a phrase when you are looking for a phrase (spark when you are looking for spark plug, pressure when you are looking for tire pressure). These suggestions ensure that you don't set your criteria too tightly, and thus exclude finding something that addresses what you are looking for.
Michael


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (PanEuropean)*

For what it's worth, here are a couple of photos of my new rear discs + Carbotech Bobcat 1521 ceramic pads. I bought them to reduce the amount of black dust. I hope I won't get red dust instead








Btw, I had my bearings changed while everything was disassembled, hoping that it would just cost the price of the part (a matter of removing a couple of screws) but apparently it was not the case. It seems that the screws that retain the (rear) bearings are not accessible without removing the whole wheel assembly, so this ended up costing a bit more than expected (around 850 euros all in all, would have been much less if I had not changed the bearings).
A while ago, I had asked about how difficult it was to change the bearings while everything was disassembled but got no answer from the forum. I can fish out the invoice to tell long it took to do this if anyone is interested.
P.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (Zaphh)*

That's one clean-looking hub! There is a discussion somewhere about doing the bearings, I've come across it a couple of times.
I took another long look at the front calipers yesterday while the wheels were off for a TMPS sensor change, and I STILL can't see how to get the bloody things off! The steering was straight, which probably didn't help, but even feeling around the back I couldn't find any pins to undo.


----------



## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (invisiblewave)*

Take a look at Michaels pictures (front brakes).
In order to get the calipers off, you have to take the parts number 14 and 15 out. The plastic covers (14, the upper has a clip for {if I remember right to hold either the brake line or the wire for the wear sensor}, the lower one is plane).
After removing those use a torx socket to unscrew the guide pins (15, upper and lower).
When that is done the caliper slides out easy.








Gernot


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: How to change brake pads? (heisenberg2000)*

Thanks! The dealer did the front pads not long ago, but I'll make a note for when they need doing again, since they charged me $450!


----------



## Tmesis (Jan 22, 2009)

*Re: time for breaks (wlm)*

04 V8 with 60,000 miles indicater for new brakes comes on, meaning that 20% wear is left, not bad. I always get rotors turned with new pads. I hope they don't need replacing.


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: time for breaks (Tmesis)*

Wow. Front brakes or rear brakes ?
FWIW, Phaeton rotors are designed to outlive the pads by a small amount only (supposedly 1.5 times the lifetime of the pads, but on my car where the previous owner changed the pads only (which was a sensible thing for him to do since he planned to sell the car), I have 8mm of pads on my front gear and only 0.4mm left on the disc, meaning that I will need to change the disc well before the pads are worn out, and I need to periodically check this out because there is no light to tell that the discs are too thin (I evaluated I have 20000km life left on them).
Anyway, rotors have been designed to be changed along with the pads, or, to put it differently, the pads have been designed to be changed with the discs (and this is why the pads are beefy and why you could say "not bad"







: on any other car, you would have had to change the pads several times before you got to 60 000 miles).
Once the calipers are removed, virtually no work is required to replace the disc, so you are looking at parts price only (unless your garage wants to make undue money on you).
So consider the indicator for new brakes to be an indicator for new discs (err... rotors). When you replace your rotors, don't forget to also replace the pads















P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: time for breaks (Tmesis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tmesis* »_I always get rotors turned with new pads. I hope they don't need replacing.


It's false economy to attempt to turn rotors on recent manufacture (post 2000) vehicles. The rotors are made much thinner and lighter today than they were in the past, partly to reduce unsprung weight, and partly because the tolerances for anti-lock brake systems are much tighter than the tolerance for older brake systems.
It is in your best interest to replace the pads and the rotors at the same time. It might hurt a bit up front, but over the long haul, you will spend less money (not to mention the considerable safety benefit).
Michael


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## Pink Panther (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: time for brakes (PanEuropean)*

I need some advice here, Im looking to doing the brakes myself. The only pictures and instructions available are from an Audi A8. There are a few things that are left unclear;
Do Phaeton caliper pistons need rotating while being pushed in? 
The rear phaeton caliper has one piston, the front has dual pistons, how does one compress the front dual pistons? One at a time? needs rotating?
I already know the wear sensor is built into the front pads.
Is the wear sensor built into the rear pads? or clipped/bolted on caliper?
If clipped/bolted on caliper, does it need replaced?
Most brakes i find have only wear sensors built into front pads.
The VW Phaeton originally comes with two brand of pads, Jurid for the fronts and Textar for the rear. Persons such as i have difficult decisions purchasing pads from quality manufacturer's at a savings over oem in the sense that what if i choose "grippier" pad's for rear than front or vice versa? This could be detrimental in rain or snow.
Brake pads as a set by a singular manufacturer are difficult to find, Why did VW use two different brands for front versus rear?
I'm considering Porterfield R4-S pads or pads made in Canada by ABSFriction. I'd absolutely choose Hawk pads if the fronts didn't cost nearly $300.
Any extra tips on removal/install would be much appreciated.


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## Solipsism12 (Feb 18, 2008)

The rear calipers do need to be rotated as they are being pushed in - do yourself a BIG favor and buy the tool - somewhere in there there's a link for one that only costs about $25 and has attachments for a number of different cars and both turns and compresses the piston. I did mine with the dime-store cube and thought my hand was going to fall off for the next two days.
The rear pads also have sensors, and they are fastened to the backing plates for the pads - not integral to the pad material itself. New sensors, as well as new micro-encapsulated caliper bolts came with the set of ATE pads that I selected for my installation - not sure if that will be the case with all brands. If they come with the pads, I'd replace them - otherwise, unless they were damaged, I'm not sure why it would be necessary, but you'd need to transfer them to the new pads, and that might not be do-able with the way they are attached to the backing plate.
What I found when I did my car was that my front pads were ready for replacement about 3 months or so before my rear pads and, even though the rear pads' sensors indicated that it was time, there still seemed to be plenty of meat left on the pads when the dash light finally came on again. My use is mostly highway and to the best of my ability not in the middle of stop and go rush-hour traffic, so brakes aren't put to severe workout when I can help it.
Hope this info helps. Best of luck,
Rick


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## BltVWF (Oct 19, 2009)

*Re: (Solipsism12)*

This is the tool:
http://www.northerntool.com/we...96088
It is not the best, SnapOn or Mac are far better, but it will do the job.
While there, I would bleed the brakes as well.
For the front, this is the tool:
http://www.mactools.com/produc....aspx
However, here's an easy way for the dual calipers. I push one of them with big pliers (or, use a C-clamp) and slid that piston on the disk. While the first caliper is on the rotor, press the second piston in and slid the caliper on the rotor.
Good luck,
Eugene


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (BltVWF)*

The brakes are pretty straight forward, especially if you know in advance that the pistons in the rear calipers need to be rotated (I learned this the hard way, then went to Harbor Freight and purchased the caliper tool for $16).
As another poster said, the fronts needed replacement long before the rears. In my case it was over a year, 12K miles. The sensors trigger at about 20-25% left. Naturally, the 20-25% lasts longer on the rear than the front.
You will save $800-1000 doing this yourself.


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

*Rear Brake Tool*

I have to change the rear brakes on my wife's 2007 Jetta. Like the Phaeton, I need to use a special tool to loosen the "calipers"?. I have several questions:
1- Can I use the same tool for both cars?
2- Does anyone know what is the name of this tool?
3- Does anyone know where I can buy it? Sanp-on-tools is a non-starter since I can never find the truck, nor do I want to pay their price.
4- Does anyone have a picture of this tool?
Thank you.
cai


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Brakes - Rotors wear limits*

Hi, I am trying to access the following thread "*Brake Servicing (general discussion, wear limits, disassembly, component life)*", and it seems to be broken, please somebody can help me with the Wear Limits for the Front and Rear Rotors, currently I have 31mm Front and 21mm Rear, and I do not remember the Thickness when
they are Brand New and the lower limit, thanks


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

brosen said:


> Hi, I am trying to access the following thread "*Brake Servicing (general discussion, wear limits, disassembly, component life)*", and it seems to be broken, please somebody can help me with the Wear Limits for the Front and Rear Rotors, currently I have 31mm Front and 21mm Rear, and I do not remember the Thickness when
> they are Brand New and the lower limit, thanks


Front 31mm min (34)
Rear 20mm min (22)

The braketed figures are the new thicknesses. Looks as if you're about ready for a change at the front. How do your pads look? I measured the rears on mine and determined that the rear rotors last exactly two pad cycles, they were at 21mm when the pads needed to be changed.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

brosen said:


> Hi, I am trying to access the following thread "*Brake Servicing (general discussion, wear limits, disassembly, component life)*", and it seems to be broken, please somebody can help me with the Wear Limits for the Front and Rear Rotors, currently I have 31mm Front and 21mm Rear, and I do not remember the Thickness when
> they are Brand New and the lower limit, thanks


FYI, Wear limits are usually cast on the rotors themselves. Look for the text around the hats.

Damon


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> Front 31mm min (34)
> Rear 20mm min (22)
> 
> The braketed figures are the new thicknesses. Looks as if you're about ready for a change at the front. How do your pads look? I measured the rears on mine and determined that the rear rotors last exactly two pad cycles, they were at 21mm when the pads needed to be changed.


Pads look very good, I think I have at least another 10,000 miles, I drive on average 40 miles a day and
95% of it is Highway, and I barely use the brakes, so I would say maybe even more than 10,000 miles.

Front and Rear were changed at 50,000 miles, now I have 80,000.


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

*Brake Rotor Thickness Specifications*

Cai - 

I've changed both the rear and front pads and rotors. The front sensors were embedded in the pads. Basically two wires sticking out of the pads. On the rear pads the sensor is assembled with the pad. Here's a picture of the rear.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

brosen said:


> Pads look very good, I think I have at least another 10,000 miles, I drive on average 40 miles a day and
> 95% of it is Highway, and I barely use the brakes, so I would say maybe even more than 10,000 miles.
> 
> Front and Rear were changed at 50,000 miles, now I have 80,000.


Were the rotors changed at 50k as well?? The rear pads are pretty straightforward to do yourself, the locking nut arrangement on the caliper pins makes them relatively easy to get off, although you do need a good 13mm ring wrench plus a slim wrench for the locking nut (17mm I think, from memory). You can get a normal width wrench onto the locking nut, but it doesn't go all the way on, mine went far enough for me to get it undone. I didn't do the rotors on mine, but you have to take the caliper all the way off to do the pads anyway. The plastic clips on the sensor cable housing are a bit fiddly, but no great problem.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

cai said:


> If you buy rear ones at AutoHaus Arizona, the Textar ones do not come with the sensors; I just received a pair and called them about it. I wonder if the sensors can be bought separately and if the old sensors can be reused once they activate.
> 
> cai


I seem to recall someone posting that the front sensors are embedded into the pads but I think the rears are separate.

Why did you buy Textar rather than VW?


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Besides price, about half the cost, any reason why not to buy Textar pads? 

I was buying other brake pads for a Jetta and decided to buy these at the same time and have them for when I needed them. I am going to inquire from VW about buying only the sensors or just put these and watch them as they wear out. I have not checked the installed pads for wear and will do so this weekend. If the pads are low and the sensors intact, I will change the pads and the rotors.

Note: When using the compression tool I ran into a problem where the piston would not rotate. I was turning the screw so hard that I bent the tool back plate and the leverage pin. If that happens to you, just start the rotation using channel pliers and then use the tool. If the tool still will not rotate the piston, put some light pressure on the piston with the tool and with the pliers turn the piston. You will notice that the screw will also turn helping you keep pressure on the piston while turning it. I had to do this on both of the Jetta wheels. It goes in very fast.

cai


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> Were the rotors changed at 50k as well?? The rear pads are pretty straightforward to do yourself, the locking nut arrangement on the caliper pins makes them relatively easy to get off, although you do need a good 13mm ring wrench plus a slim wrench for the locking nut (17mm I think, from memory). You can get a normal width wrench onto the locking nut, but it doesn't go all the way on, mine went far enough for me to get it undone. I didn't do the rotors on mine, but you have to take the caliper all the way off to do the pads anyway. The plastic clips on the sensor cable housing are a bit fiddly, but no great problem.


Yes, Rotors and Pads, Front and Rear were replaced at 50K


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

cai said:


> Besides price, about half the cost, any reason why not to buy Textar pads?
> 
> 
> cai


Well, apart from anything else, if you'd bought VW you'd have been sure to get the sensors as well! How much were the Textar pads? My VW pads were $90 + tax. The only reasons I can think of for buying aftermarket pads would be a) cost and b) reduction in dust. The manufacturer will no doubt have spent a significant amount of time coming up with the optimum formulation for the pads, I suppose there may be pads around that might perform marginally better, but how do you know before you try them anyway? The Textar pads I've used in the past (since the originals are no longer available) produce more dust than the VW pads on the Phaeton, and the aftermarket pads I priced up were close to the cost of the VW pads once I factored in the shipping cost.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

brosen said:


> Yes, Rotors and Pads, Front and Rear were replaced at 50K


It sounds as if your rotor to pad wear ratio is slightly greater than mine, but that makes sense since you do lot more highway driving than I do. Having said that, my pads had what I would consider as quite a bit left on them, although the dealer insisted that they were 95% worn. The warning light hadn't come on. The reason I changed them when I did was because I didn't want to be doing it in the middle of the summer.....


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## Reflect (Apr 4, 2007)

Same here. I did front and rear pads and rotors at 50,xxx miles. The sensor light came on about 1000 miles before at 49,xxx


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

How much is everybody paying for a full brake service, meaning Front and Rear, Rotors and Pads with the Dealer ?, here in MN my VW dealer charges $1,450 + Taxes.

Is it safe to go to an specialized Brake Service shop ?, they gave me a quick quote the other day for half of the dealer price and they mentioned that they will use OEM parts, any previous experience ?, I do not know if the Phaeton brakes are too complicated or they are just standard brakes, thanks


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

The brakes, both front and rear pads and rotors were very easy. I think the parts were about $400 for the front and $300 for the rear if that helps at all.

Best Regards,

Nate


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

brosen said:


> How much is everybody paying for a full brake service, meaning Front and Rear, Rotors and Pads with the Dealer ?, here in MN my VW dealer charges $1,450 + Taxes.
> 
> Is it safe to go to an specialized Brake Service shop ?, they gave me a quick quote the other day for half of the dealer price and they mentioned that they will use OEM parts, any previous experience ?, I do not know if the Phaeton brakes are too complicated or they are just standard brakes, thanks


The dealer charged me about $450 just to do the front f*ing pads. I only agreed because it was already in for something else and he told me the parts were about $200. Having done the rear pads myself, and reading the Ruddy One's comments about the front, I can't see any reason why any brake shop can't do them. The only part that would worry me would be the lifting, make sure your air lines are out of the way and that they lift it at the correct lifting points. The Phaeton brakes were actually easier to do then the Impala I had. How much did they quote?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

ruddyone said:


> The brakes, both front and rear pads and rotors were very easy. I think the parts were about $400 for the front and $300 for the rear if that helps at all.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Nate


Nate, did you have any trouble getting the rotors off?


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

First, the rotors were $195 and the pads were about $88. (plus shipping) 

Second, the rotors were no problem. They came off in a few seconds. There is only one set screw and they weren't corroded at all. The calipers are floating so they are slightly different than the rears but not any more difficult. The pads have clips that hold them into the caliper instead of the carriage.

I plan to take the tires off and take pictures but the basic process for the front is:

Jack mode
Jack up car
Take off the tire
Remove the two rubber caps covering the rear of the caliper bolts
Remove the caliper bolts
Remove the caliper
Remove the pads from caliper
Unhook the sensor 
Remove the lower bolt that hold the carriage
Loosen the upper carriage bolt
Remove the Set screw for the rotor
Swing carriage up to remove the rotor
Replace the rotor
Replace set screw
Reinstall the carriage
Compress caliper pistons (two per caliper) (I use that special tool but the fronts don't need to be rotated like the rears)
Replace pads
Hook up sensor wire
Reinstall calipers
Reinstall tire

Best Regards,

Nate


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## DynomiteTT (Jan 10, 2007)

btw check out, http://www.adamsrotors.com/

He does custom slotted/drilled zinc coated rotors for any car. He quoted me $450 for a set of slotted rotors i believe that was front and back.


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## dstalling (Feb 19, 2009)

*Cost for recently completed pads and rotors on V8 04*

Purchased drilled and slotted rotors and rear brake sensors from iROTORS INC for ~$648. Other that crimping the air line on the driver's side the biggest challenge was loosening the four main bolts loose on the front; those bolts are tight. Repair of the orange line was a snap with a 4mm coupling on http://www.master.com (Push-to-Connect Tube Fittings). 
daves


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

{Invisibleware said: The Textar pads I've used in the past (since the originals are no longer available) produce more dust than the VW pads on the Phaeton,.... )

What original ones are no longer available?

The cost of the pads was $47.21, with free shipping. I will return them since I want to know how the red ones installed by Ruddyone are doing. I will return the pads since a check of the wheels indicates a lot of wear left; I think. I did not take the wheel off and it is difficult to see.

cai


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## 04phaeton (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm about to go on my 3rd set of brakes within 2 years (this last set lasted 46,000 kms).

I'm going to keep the rotors I put in last year and change the pads only and just purchased the EBC Red Stuff pads.

These pads are supposed to be excellent in controlling dust (the VW ones are horrible).

I'm hoping to have them by mid-week and installed by the weekend as my check brake pads light just came on this weekend.


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Upon looking at the picture of the red brake pads posted by ruddyone, I notice that top of the wear sensor sits at about half the depth of the pad material. 

1- Does the sensor activate as soon as it has contact with the rotor or does the indicator have to wear much lower before a signal is given? 

2- How good are these red pads in stopping power? That is, compared with the OEM VW pads.

3- Where can one buy the red pads?

Thank you.

cai


----------



## hylko (Nov 17, 2009)

*Part no*

Hi guys,

Just wondering if the parts that i need (for my 2005 3.0 tdi) are the same 
as in the exploded view graphic from Michael.

I want to replace discs and brake pads.

If any one can help me and if uk based please let me know good place to order.

Thanks


----------



## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

DynomiteTT said:


> btw check out, http://www.adamsrotors.com/
> 
> He does custom slotted/drilled zinc coated rotors for any car. He quoted me $450 for a set of slotted rotors i believe that was front and back.


DynomiteTT,

Did you end up getting rotors from Adam's Rotors? I've read some great feedback about his products and was curious if you could offer and real world experience. My concern is that machined rotors will be noisier than the stock, unmachined rotors. Is this true?

I need front pads and rotors (and maybe rears too) and am looking at Adam's Rotors vs. OEM and StopTech Posi-Quiets vs Red Stuff vs OEM pads. Any experience with any of those would be helpfull too.

Bobby


----------



## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

Sarmale89 said:


> DynomiteTT,
> 
> Did you end up getting rotors from Adam's Rotors? I've read some great feedback about his products and was curious if you could offer and real world experience. My concern is that machined rotors will be noisier than the stock, unmachined rotors. Is this true?
> 
> ...


I ordered a full set of slotted rotors and posi-quiet pads from Adam last night. The total was $699 including shipping. I priced out the OEM parts at 1stvwparts.com and they came to about $675, so I figured for $25 bucks more I'm getting slotted rotors and pads that should be (based on reviews) better than OEM. They should get here in 2-3 weeks. I'll let you know how it goes.

Bobby


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## adam's rotors (Sep 20, 2006)

let us know guys! 
...we love emails, so just shoot us any questions.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

remembertofocus said:


> let us know guys!
> ...we love emails, so just shoot us any questions.


 Remember To Focus:

Are you an advertiser here on Vortex? It appears that you are selling a product. Please advise.

Michael


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## adam's rotors (Sep 20, 2006)

clearly not no. I'm still adam...this is my personal account. 
this thread was started and kept alive by users who made mention of my products so I simply chimed in with my contact info. :thumbup:


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

OK, thanks, I appreciate the clarification.

Michael


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

remembertofocus said:


> let us know guys!
> ...we love emails, so just shoot us any questions.


 Adam, 

I am looking forward to getting my slotted rotors and posi-quiet pads next week . Have they shipped yet? 

Bobby


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## adam's rotors (Sep 20, 2006)

shiffler? 
we're just at 2 weeks...your order should ship out this coming.


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

remembertofocus said:


> shiffler?
> we're just at 2 weeks...your order should ship out this coming.


 Correct. Thanks. 

Bobby


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## HunterST (Dec 11, 2008)

*replacement bolt source?*

I'm about to tackle this with my new drilled/slotted rotors from Adam's Rotors. Reading Michael's post, I see:

Hex washer bolt, item 13 - 190 Nm *(needs to be replaced - one time use only)*​and
*Hex bolt, item 7 - 90 Nm plus an additional 90° 1/4 turn (needs to be replaced - one time use only)*​*

Is the general consensus to replace these? Or are they safe to reuse? If you replaced, where did you source these?

Thanks!*


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

HunterST said:


> I'm about to tackle this with my new drilled/slotted rotors from Adam's Rotors. Reading Michael's post, I see:
> 
> Hex washer bolt, item 13 - 190 Nm *(needs to be replaced - one time use only)*​and
> *Hex bolt, item 7 - 90 Nm plus an additional 90° 1/4 turn (needs to be replaced - one time use only)*​*
> ...


*

Are you referring to the big locking bolts on the front caliper carriers? 

bobby*


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## HunterST (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm not sure - I'm referring to this post by Michael on page 2 of this thread. Unfortunately, his pictures are gone.


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## stefanuk (Jul 7, 2010)

i'm after some info as my brake pad warning has just come on.
i don't want to replace with the OEM pads as way too expensive but i see that both redstuff and greenstuff EBC pads are half the price and i'm tempted to go with the redstuff and wondered if anyone here has tried these or other makes.

thanks

stefan


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

*Brake Pads and Rotors*

I have more than 55,000 miles on my rotors and brake pads. They are starting to chatter and I am looking at replacing them, both front and rear. I would like to hear from people that have used replacement rotors and pads that were either the VW parts and those that were not VW parts.
1- Is there an advantage to using the VW pads and rotors vs Tire Rack's StopTech slotted rotors and Hawk HPS performance pads?
2- What kind of wear longevity, dust and noise issues did you encounter?
3- If you replaced rotors and pads with original VW parts, did they performed as well as the ones that came with the car?

Any replies will be most welcomed. Thank you,

cai


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Chatter? They shouldn't chatter no matter how worn they are. If they're chattering, there's something else wrong.

I've only used VW parts on mine, so I can't answer your specific questions. However, I can tell you that my local dealer was willing to match the online price for the parts, so they were roughly the same as aftermarket parts. 

Rather than just blindly changing pads and rotors, my advice would be to check the thickness of the rotors. I can get two sets of pads out of the rears and two sets from the fronts by running the rotors slightly thinner than spec. The front rotors are fairly expensive, even discounted.


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

^^ I agree. Chattering is not normal. Unless you mean there's a shimmy or wobble in the wheel when pressing the brakes, then you likely have warped rotors and you should definitely replace them. 

Mine are down to about 6mm on the pads, so I've started thinking about replacements as well. I have Hawk pads on my Volvo and love them. I've also heard great things about EBC, and I know they make front pads for the P. There are many different compounds you can get that will be quieter or produce less dust. In the end, I think I'd want the best performing pad. Hawk might not be a bad idea. On our Volvo they're quiet and very grabby, and the dust isn't too bad. We had ceramics on our previous Volvo, and couldn't keep the wheels clean for more than a couple days.

As far as slotted rotors, we also had those on our previous Volvo, and I hated them. They were very noisy when cold. However, I managed to really give them a work-out in the mountain passes and didn't notice brake-fade as soon as I would have expected with blank discs. But, for regular driving, slotted probably aren't going to be worth it. Also, if they're cross-drilled, I've read some horrible reports of fractures forming around the drill holes. I'm sure this happens more in lower quality discs, and is a direct result of bad hole quality. 

When I change, I'm thinking VW blanks and Hawk HPS pads. Let us know how it goes, whatever you decide. 

Aaron


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## rmcclain54 (Sep 2, 2012)

As others have mentioned the term 'chattering' doesn't sound right. Mine 'chatters' when I am in full tilt on the steering and expect that is the cv joints. I have a friend with an all wheel drive Audi and says his make the same sound. 

So, let us know more details about this sound, like what is going on when it happens. Turning, braking ... etc. 

Also, your rear brakes do far less work than the front and can be expected to last 2 to 3 times as long, in my experience, so don't automatically replace rear break pads with the front. ...


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Perhaps I had a bad choice of words to identify the action. The brakes "chatter", "shimmy", or "wobble" when I am going over 50 MPH and I apply the brakes. The front and back suspension parts were all changed last year, so I am discarding any suspension problems. In my opinion, this seems to be warped rotors; the Phaeton tech told me this some time ago, but I did not want to believe him because this did not start happening until they rotated the tires about two years ago. Since then, it has become worse, so I think it is time for action.

Upon inspection yesterday, I do not like the looks of the rear rotors. The do not look shiny and seem to have scars. I have not been able to check the pad thickness, but since the car was in the shop recently they do check just about everything and they did not comment on this. This last time may be the one time they did not check the brakes. I would discard salt or sand actions on the rear rotors, just because the front ones are shiny and do not display this filmy, not rust, condition. I will check them again this morning.

I have discarded using the Tire Rack rotors because they are a special order item. Also, I just spoke to my VW parts dealer and he is matching the internet prices of other VW dealers. Remarkably, he says that although they service quite a number of Phaetons at this dealership, he has never sold any rotors or pads for those cars. In his opinion, they seem to last a long time. I think that 88,000 miles is a long time since my other cars, Volvos, BMWs 7 series, and Passats all had brake replacements at about 50,000 to 60,000 miles.

I welcome any comments, specially on the diagnostics. Thank you.

cai


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If you're getting a shimmy from worn rotors, they're probably well under the minimum thickness (assuming they're VW rotors, the original brakes are fantastic imo). I posted a thread somewhere with more detailed information about how long they last, but I don't have a link to it. From memory, 55k is quite a lot, and for pads it's a hell of a lot! I think my front pads last about 30k or maybe a little more, the rears maybe 45k. Are you sure they've been on there that long? As I said, I run my rotors beyond the recommended minimum thickness, but I've never had any hint of any warping. By design, the rotors have about 1.5 times the life of the pads, so a lot of people change them all at the same time every time the pads need to be changed. Personally I don't think that's necessary, but I suppose it depends on your wallet and level of personal paranoia. I picked up a micrometer from Ebay for about $20, it's pretty simple to pull the wheel off and check the rotor thickness. It won't tell you if it's warped, but it'll tell you whether it needs to be changed anyway.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

One of my front wheels is squealing for help, even though there's a decent bit of pad left and the wear sensors haven't tripped. I guess I'll be doing brakes soon. I am absolutely happy with the OEM pad and rotor performance, at least when it comes to driving. I have been burned on my others cars when I try to go cheap or even "performance" aftermarket, with noise or pedal pulsation issues, so that does color my decision process. I just want my new-car feel back.

My only complaint is the absolutely obscene amount of brake dust. The car looks terrible a day after I drive out of the car wash. The finish on my wheels is long-gone from that stuff. One of my co-workers has used that new Plasti Dip finish on the wheels of his 370Z and it's held up great for over a year. I think I might do a matte black Plasti Dip like his. It's subtle, it would match the anthracite rocker panels and interior, and -- most importantly -- it would match the color of brake dust. 

Jason


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Strangely enough, my front left brake has just gone through a period of squealing, but only at very low speeds with right lock and no pedal pressure. It lasted about a month but has stopped doing it now. I thought at first it was the power steering, but touching the brake pedal made it stop.


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

jyoung8607 said:


> One of my front wheels is squealing for help, even though there's a decent bit of pad left and the wear sensors haven't tripped. I guess I'll be doing brakes soon. I am absolutely happy with the OEM pad and rotor performance, at least when it comes to driving. I have been burned on my others cars when I try to go cheap or even "performance" aftermarket, with noise or pedal pulsation issues, so that does color my decision process. I just want my new-car feel back.
> 
> My only complaint is the absolutely obscene amount of brake dust. The car looks terrible a day after I drive out of the car wash. The finish on my wheels is long-gone from that stuff. One of my co-workers has used that new Plasti Dip finish on the wheels of his 370Z and it's held up great for over a year. I think I might do a matte black Plasti Dip like his. It's subtle, it would match the anthracite rocker panels and interior, and -- most importantly -- it would match the color of brake dust.
> 
> Jason


Armor-all started selling a brake dust repellent for wheels in places like Autozone and O-Reillys a few years ago. I was reluctant, but tried it out, and it did exactly as advertised. My wheels stayed cleaner for longer as the dust build up was slowed down significantly. It also made the wheels much easier to clean. I think they stopped carrying at most places, or maybe it was discontinued because I don't find it anymore. I remember my local Autozone moved it to the overflow shelf, and said they weren't going to carry it anymore, so I bought the last 2 bottles they had. But Meguiars has something similar now. I bought a can, but haven't used it. There are a lot of other companies selling similar products online.


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## laser21 (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi guys, I will also need to change my brakes soon. I heard good things about EBC Redstuff. 
Less dust, more brake power. Anybody has some experience?

Thanks, Lukas


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

I recently put EBC red on front and will put them on back when I remove winter wheels. Braking performance is the same as far as I can tell with perhaps a little less dust, not a dramatic difference in either department IMHO.


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## laser21 (Jan 25, 2012)

Auzivision said:


> I recently put EBC red on front and will put them on back when I remove winter wheels. Braking performance is the same as far as I can tell with perhaps a little less dust, not a dramatic difference in either department IMHO.


Thanks for your input!


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Thank you for all your comments. 

Upon visually inspecting the rotors from the outside, the rear ones seem to have this surface that is not shiny. Moreover, there are marks on the rotor that the best way that I can describe them is as if they were made by metal to metal contact. The marks look like a fat stubby letter Z; and they are shiny. Both front and rear rotors have a lip, but I have not measured their thickness.

Does anyone here know how the emergency brake works on the Phaetons? In other words, does the emergency brake use the rear rotors to hold the car? I ask this because if the car was moved with the emergency brake on, it could account for these marks. Are there emergency brake pads that need to be replaced? I have not heard of that, but I will ask the question anyway.

To invisibleware: These are the pads and rotors that were on when I bought the car with 32,000 miles; the car now has 89,000+ miles. I suspect that the dealer did not put new ones in, but, in any case these have over 55,000 miles on them. 

All comments welcomed. Thank you.

cai


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The handbrake operates the calipers I believe, there are no inner linings or anything. I've accidentally moved my car on numerous occasions with the handbrake on without any problem. If you had metal-on-metal contact, you'd know it, it makes a horrible grinding noise, and your wear warning would be on the dash. If the pads have done 55k, they must be low, very low probably, especially on the front.

It's a very simple thing to check the pads, just pull the wheel off and look, but with that mileage on them you definitely need new pads and probably also need rotors.


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

I do know that going STRICTLY by the mileage is not always a true indicator of wear. I live in a rural area with lots of open road driving which vs somebody living in a big city with lots of traffic signal lights equals a much longer intervals between pad and/or rotor replacement. Judging by the wear I've seen on my W12 after 40k of ownership I expect at least 80k of driving before any pad replacement.

Cantrell


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

cai said:


> These are the pads and rotors that were on when I bought the car with 32,000 miles; the car now has 89,000+ miles. I suspect that the dealer did not put new ones in, but, in any case these have over 55,000 miles on them.


Hello Cai:

Assuming your driving pattern is a normal mix of city and highway driving (rather than, for example, 200 miles back and forth over deserted Montana roads every day), 50,000 miles of driving is probably enough to wear out the brake pads and the rotors on a Phaeton. As others have pointed out, there are many variables involved (your driving pattern, the city vs. highway mix, how aggressively you drive, etc.), but my own opinion is that it would not be unreasonable to need to replace pads and rotors after 50,000 miles of use. By way of example, my driving is mostly city, not at all aggressive, generally pretty low speed, and I have replaced all the pads and rotors twice now: once at about 30,000 miles and again at 60,000 miles.

Be aware that in the "old days", auto makers used to put pretty heavy and pretty thick rotors on the cars, the idea being that the rotor could be machined down on a lathe (to remove any runout or minor warping) and only the pads would need to be replaced. For about the last 15 years or so, auto makers have been putting much lighter weight rotors on their cars (to reduce weight in general, and unsprung weight in particular), and these newer, lighter rotors are not intended to last any longer than the set of pads that press against them. In other words, the design specification is that the rotors and pads will wear out at the same time and be replaced at the same time.

Some people try to save money by having these newer, lighter rotors machined down on a lathe (like the old days) and only replacing the pads. This is (in my opinion) a false economy, because it is unlikely that the rotor, after having outlived one set of brake pads and after having been further machined down, will have sufficient material remaining to last the life of the new brake pads. So, I suggest you plan to have both the rotors and the pads replaced at the same time. That will guarantee you proper braking performance, and also guarantee that you will not have to have the brakes serviced again for quite a long time (likely the same length of time as your present set have lasted, presuming your driving patterns remain the same).

Michael


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Thank you Michael for your post. My conclusion has been similar to yours in that I duly think that both rotors and pads need to be replaced. I have also pondered on something else. When I bought the car it was a certified vehicle with 32,000 miles. Most probably they changed the brake pads and left the old rotors. If that is the case the rotors have 90,000 miles and the pads close to 60,000. Quite a good driving spell.

As for how I drive the car, my wife is now driving it to her work, 11 miles away, and she drives very conservatively. She complains thay whenever I drive the car on weekends, she has to adjust to the quicker acceleration that the car learns due to my driving. I do toss this car around and test its response. So far it has been great. 

cai


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Cai, it's simple to check your rotors. Any brake place will be able to tell you what width is left and whether or not they're warped. You can even check for warping yourself by holding a wire coat hanger against the rotor while you turn it, brace the coat hanger against something so it doesn't move, and you'll be able to see if the rotor is warped as it turns. The rear rotors last about twice as long as the pads, so they don't need to be changed every time (I know this by measuring their width), the fronts last a little bit less than 2 lots of pads.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

I spent yesterday installing all new brakes on my Phaeton. This is after 74,800 miles. My instrument cluster brake pad warning light had just come on a few days before. I checked each inboard pad sensor with my DMM and the front right pad highlighted below was the culprit. However, the rest of them only had a matter of weeks left. I had already decided to replace all the rotors, but I measured the old components just for my own personal curiosity on how things were wearing. 



*Position**New Rotor Spec**Rotor Wear Limit**Measured Wear**New Pad Spec**Pad Wear Limit**Measured Wear**Front Left*34.0 mm31.0 mm31.7 mm14.0 mm4.0 mm4.4 mm*Front Right*34.0 mm31.0 mm31.4 mm14.0 mm4.0 mm*3.8 mm**Rear Left*22.0 mm20.0 mm20.9 mm11.66 mm3.0 mm4.0 mm*Rear Right*22.0 mm20.0 mm20.7 mm11.66 mm3.0 mm4.0 mm

Simply stated, replace your rotors. The rotor specs given aren't minimum machining thickness, they're discard specs. Even if you didn't resurface at all, all four of those rotors would drop well below discard thickness before they wore out a new set of pads, and resurfacing would take off even more. They are fit only for recycling.

Edit: The true pad wear limits are actually 2.0 mm for both front and rear. The table above gives the spec for when the wear sensor sets off a warning in the instrument cluster. If you ran the pads longer to the actual wear limit, the rotor will have even more wear.

Jason


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

jyoung8607 said:


> I spent yesterday installing all new brakes on my Phaeton. This is after 74,800 miles. My instrument cluster brake pad warning light had just come on a few days before. I checked each inboard pad sensor with my DMM and the front right pad highlighted below was the culprit. However, the rest of them only had a matter of weeks left. I had already decided to replace all the rotors, but I measured the old components just for my own personal curiosity on how things were wearing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great informative fact-filled post Jason. I've read so much regarding whether to replace or not replace rotors each time with pad changes that I had become confused. I haven't had to do brakes on my Phaeton, but I have replaced the fronts on my Touareg. I replaced pads and rotors with VW OEM components just to be on the safe side. i never used a micrometer on the old rotors in my decision, I just included 2 new rotors with my order. After reading your post, I even feel better about my decision. 

Jim X


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Your pads did 75k miles?


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

invisiblewave said:


> Your pads did 75k miles?


They sure did, as far as I know. I had never touched the brakes on this car to date. I bought it used with 30,800 miles on it so it's technically possible someone put brakes on it once before, but I don't believe so. I don't remember the brakes being particularly new-looking when I bought it.

I wasn't going for High Science; this is from a single car and the rotors were measured at a single point (because I had to file down the worn-in lip in one place by hand) so I could measure using my Harbor Freight (Chinese garbage) digital calipers. Also, measuring the pad lining was a little tricky with the backing plate and bonded anti-squeal shim. However, I also measured the new components in the same way and I got the Bentley stated factory specs within less than 0.25 mm.

When I took those measurements, it wasn't really to make a statement about how long you can go between brake jobs. That's going to vary tremendously by driving needs and driving styles. However, outside a racetrack, the wear ratio between the pad and the rotor sets will be dictated by material design instead of driving style, so the answer to this question should be the same for all of us:

*Can you re-surface and re-use the rotors on a Phaeton with worn-out brake pads?*

The measurements told me quite clearly:

*No.*

If someone wants to try it anyway, more power to them, but they should understand the reliability and safety implications. Also, they might have trouble finding a shop willing to do the work. The discard limit is cast-in to all four rotors. Mine that I took off might not even be machinable without violating that limit, let alone having enough left for another set of pads to wear through.

Jason


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Well, I just changed my brakes and rotors. Here are the measurements of both pads and rotors:

front right pads = 6.33 mm
front left pads = 6.20 mm
rear right pads = 5.8 mm
rear left pads = 5.9 mm

front right rotor = 33.7 mm
front left rotor = 33.8 mm
rear right rotor = 27.0 mm
rear left rotor = 22.2 mm

These measurements were made by the dealer and the pad measurements reflect the amount of material left on the pads. The reading for the rear right rotor should probably be 22.0 mm, I think the adviser confused a 2 with a 7. In any event both the rotors and the pads were in fairly good shape for 60,000 miles. The tech had mentioned that these were after market rotors, although he could not confirm that.

I decided against turning the rotors because I have never been a fan of doing that, plus the warping would have returned given that I would have thinner rotors. According to the tech, this facility does not have the capability of turning such big rotors anyway. The tech also said that he could clearly see the shinning areas where the rotors had warped, both front and back. The car does not shake anymore when I brake at 70+ miles per hour. 

Thank you to Jim x and Jason for posting the values for the rotors and pads. 

cai


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

cai said:


> Thank you to Jim x and Jason for posting the values for the rotors and pads.
> 
> cai


Cai: 

Credit all goes to Jason but thanks anyway. I as you learned a lot from his post.

Jim X


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

cai said:


> ...
> 
> front right rotor = 33.7 mm
> front left rotor = 33.8 mm
> ...


Something was certainly aftermarket. Three of your rotors were nearly at new-spec thickness; your rear left was actually thicker than new spec although probably within the bounds of measurement error. I don't see how that could happen with OEM components and 60k miles of wear. Either you had thicker-than-OEM aftermarket rotors, or you had aftermarket pads made of a compound not anywhere near as aggressive on the rotor as the OEM pads, or both.

Jason


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

jyoung8607 said:


> They sure did, as far as I know. I had never touched the brakes on this car to date. I bought it used with 30,800 miles on it so it's technically possible someone put brakes on it once before, but I don't believe so. I don't remember the brakes being particularly new-looking when I bought it.
> 
> I wasn't going for High Science; this is from a single car and the rotors were measured at a single point (because I had to file down the worn-in lip in one place by hand) so I could measure using my Harbor Freight (Chinese garbage) digital calipers. Also, measuring the pad lining was a little tricky with the backing plate and bonded anti-squeal shim. However, I also measured the new components in the same way and I got the Bentley stated factory specs within less than 0.25 mm.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why, but your pads seem to last a lot longer than mine. I've posted about it somewhere, but I think my fronts last about 30k and the rears a bit longer. My measurements told me quite clearly that the rear rotors last about twice as long as the pads, the front rotors slightly less than twice the pads. I don't run my pads all the way down to the wear indicator, I've seen them start to break up on other vehicles when they get that thin. Last time I changed the front brakes, the rotors were slightly thinner than minimum spec but were still performing perfectly. The dealer has also changed pads on it in the past without changing rotors.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

invisiblewave said:


> I'm not sure why, but your pads seem to last a lot longer than mine. I've posted about it somewhere, but I think my fronts last about 30k and the rears a bit longer. My measurements told me quite clearly that the rear rotors last about twice as long as the pads, the front rotors slightly less than twice the pads. I don't run my pads all the way down to the wear indicator, I've seen them start to break up on other vehicles when they get that thin. Last time I changed the front brakes, the rotors were slightly thinner than minimum spec but were still performing perfectly. The dealer has also changed pads on it in the past without changing rotors.


As I mentioned earlier, there's a non-zero possibility the brakes were serviced before I bought it. I don't think so, but it's possible. It was a lease turn-in and got new tires as part of that, so maybe they looked at the brakes too. I do know it was exclusively dealer-serviced, and a VW dealer would not have attempted to resurface the rotors or been willing to even discuss a pad-slap. Therefore it's possible I only got ~35K out of my brakes if it was done right before turn-in, but I stand by the 1:1 wear-out ratio. Michael made some comments earlier in the thread about rotor design parameters that are really spot-on. You should expect 1:1 wear-out ratios on modern cars.

I drive a lot of highway miles, and I'm not _usually_ hard on the brakes. Almost all my vehicles have gotten 70-80K before needing brakes. The only exception was a fluke on my '01 Jetta. One of the rear calipers had a sticky slide pin and managed to nuke just the inboard pad on one side after 16K.

I don't think our figures are that far apart for the rear brakes. I caveat'ed my statement by saying IF the pads were worn out, and my rear rotors were only a bit past half-way through the wear band. You say you replace yours early. If you're making a habit of that, and you aren't resurfacing them, maybe you can get away with two sets of pads. However, I think it's fully safe to run the Phaeton down to the wear indicator before replacement. All four corners have wear indicators that trigger at 4.0 mm and the pad wear limit is 2.0 mm. Using the rears as an example, you have 7.66 mm of pad lining before the wear indicator goes off, and another 4.0 mm after. That's almost a third of the pad lining left. I see no reason at all to avoid getting your money's worth.

Jason


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

In terms of getting your money's-worth, is it more cost-effective to run a set of pads all the way down and replace pads & rotors, or to replace the first set of pads a bit earlier then do rotors next time? It definitely isn't a 1:1 relationship between pad wear and rotor wear, I measured my rear rotors when I changed the pads, and they were only half worn. I don't recall exactly how worn the pads were, but the dealer had wanted to do them at the service, and I know they always try to sell a brake job as soon as they get a sniff of pads being low, but when I checked them myself I decided they were low enough that I wanted to change them. My second set of rear pads is now well below 50% (the dealer wanted to change them when it was in for the transmission) and the rotors are at 20.3mm (15% left).


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

invisiblewave said:


> In terms of getting your money's-worth, is it more cost-effective to run a set of pads all the way down and replace pads & rotors, or to replace the first set of pads a bit earlier then do rotors next time? It definitely isn't a 1:1 relationship between pad wear and rotor wear, I measured my rear rotors when I changed the pads, and they were only half worn. I don't recall exactly how worn the pads were, but the dealer had wanted to do them at the service, and I know they always try to sell a brake job as soon as they get a sniff of pads being low, but when I checked them myself I decided they were low enough that I wanted to change them. My second set of rear pads is now well below 50% (the dealer wanted to change them when it was in for the transmission) and the rotors are at 20.3mm (15% left).


I suppose it depends on how long your pads are lasting you, and how you define "a bit earlier", and if you're doing the work yourself. You may save a little money on rotors, but you will buy more pads over time, and you'll spend more time (or pay more labor). I think you could come out on top if you monitored carefully. However, I'm not sure how much you would need to remove for resurfacing, and you are kind of gambling on the quality of your result if you don't. That's iffy when using the exact same kind of pads. If you switch pad compounds/vendors, you're begging for brake noise or pedal pulsation to develop.

I could have phrased the 1:1 thing better. While the rotor may not be worn to its discard threshold at the moment your pads reach theirs, they would definitely wear out during the service life of your next set of pads. Absent an extremely attentive owner who knew to monitor the result, the rotor would dip below its discard threshold well before the pad wear indicators told the driver of a problem. That means you would be driving on (by spec) trash rotors for a while. In a day and age where very smart design engineers subtract every milligram of weight and every penny of cost they can possibly get away with, if they tell you a threshold where the rotor is trash, there is probably a very good reason.

Full disclosure: Separate from the data points I posted earlier, I have pretty much sworn off doing anything non-spec on brakes. Years ago on my Passat I ended up doing three front brake jobs in under 10k miles because the aftermarket stuff I got turned out to be crap, even names I thought were good. The first set had a rotor that turned out to be machined badly and off-balance at highway speed, and I had some noise on stops. For the second I used better name-brand rotors and what were supposed to be very quiet pads, and those goddamn things were like nails on chalkboard every morning when I backed down the driveway. The third time I went to the dealer and got the real deal. Everything was 100% fine after that.

So yes, aside from the data I gathered, I also advocate for the manufacturer approved parts and process. All of the cars I've bought, if I didn't like the way they drove and braked when I bought them, I wouldn't have bought them. When I'm doing a brake job, I want it to drive just like it did new. On this job for the Phaeton I basically channeled Michael. Full Bentley manual process including installation torque, factory correct parts, every single-use fastener replaced. I even ordered the VW specified lithium lubricant for the pad contact points. I forgot about the spray wax for the hub-to-wheel contact areas, but I used a substitute and I'll get it for next time. I only had to do the job once and it came out exactly right.

Jason


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Here are the measurements I just took on my nearside.


*Position**New Rotor Spec**Rotor Wear Limit**Measured Wear**New Pad Spec**Pad Wear Limit**Measured Wear**Front Right*34.0 mm31.0 mm33 mm14.0 mm4.0 mm3 mm*Rear Right*22.0 mm20.0 mm21 mm11.66 mm3.0 mm1.5 mm

The pad thickness is an estimate, I couldn't measure them without taking them out. I'm assuming the minimum pad spec includes the backing plate as well as the friction material. My fronts look fine, the rears need to be changed. Rear rotors are almost precisely halfway through their specified life, just as the pads need to be changed. The front rotors are about a quarter worn, and the pads (the first set on these rotors) I'd guess are about 50% worn.

My conclusion, based on my measurements: The rotors last just fine for 2 sets of pads on the V8 brakes.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

You guys are amazing, just purchased a 2004 V8 with 109K Km on the dial and in one day after reading so many subjects I feel confidant with my choice. Regards to everyone.

Salah


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My latest front pads again lasted about two thirds the life of the rotor. The thinnest of the two rotors was 31.85, the pads were almost at the wear indicators. I just changed the pads.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

PanEuropean said:


> Hex washer bolt, item 13 - (*needs to be replaced - one time use only*)
> 
> Guide pins, item 15 -* they need to be replaced in pairs, meaning, both fronts or both rears at the same time*.
> 
> ...


Hello everyone,

Any one has the part numbers for the bolts and pins Michael referred to above as a one time use only?

Regards,


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The calliper pins are not single use, he just says to replace in pairs if necessary (highly unlikely to be necessary). You should clean the pins and grease them lightly with high temperature grease, you can buy the stuff at any car parts store. The carrier bolts are single use, high torque to yield if I remember correctly, I think I've reused mine once and replaced them once, but I don't have the part number. Check the Jim Ellis site, they list the part numbers.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Much appreciated. Actually Ellis is my preferred store but I got confused with the differences in the diagram Michael used and the one in Ellis's website. I'll sort it out


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Check pads warning on again only 2kmiles after replacing rotors and pads*

Hello everyone,

Over the past six months or so the check pads warning stated appearing, at first occasionally (it could go on over a short trip, then stay off for several days before coming on again). Since rotors and pads had over 60k miles, i decided to replace all both front and back, with OEM parts from VWpartsvortex (a dealer in NJ), and work done at ,y usual Pittsburgh dealer. the rotors were slightly above service limit, the pads were in better shape but still quite worn.

Everything went well for approx. 2k miles, but now the warning comes back on: the pattern is different though: while before the brake service the warning was intermittent, now it comes on immediately upon turning on the engine and touching the brakes, and will stay on until I park and turn off the engine. I haven't had time to lift the car and do a visual inspection, but I suspect a fault in the wire connector from one of the pads. I will do a VCDS scan and keep you all posted.

Stefano


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## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

is it the brake fluid low level sensor?


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

No, these are the brake pads: each inner pad, both front and rear, has a sensor that will trigger a "check you brake pads" warning message in the central instrument panel display when th pad thickness drops below a certain level. I just ran a scan but unfortunately there are no codes and no way to determine which pad is triggering the warning message. I will have to lift the car and check the connections.
Stefano


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## Glen Lusset (Jul 7, 2017)

*Can you help me with the Carrier Bolt Spec and Torque*



Bindaham said:


> Much appreciated. Actually Ellis is my preferred store but I got confused with the differences in the diagram Michael used and the one in Ellis's website. I'll sort it out


I have just had a brake warning at 31,000miles on a 2014 V6 3.0Tdi
I've bitten the bullet and ordered all the necessary bits (Bosch and Brembo) to do the front and rear at a cost of around £300.
What I don't have is the spec and tightening torque of the caliper mounting bracket securing bolts. Since this component is what keeps the whole assembly on the car, I'd like to make sure I get it right!

From past experience, when you ask a main dealer for one of these single use items, they give you a puzzled look as if to say "What would you be wanting these for", and grudgingly order them in. Clearly not in the habit of replacing them as specified.

Normally these yield bolts are tightened to a lowish torque and then tightened through a further angle.

I reckon these bolts will be either M12 or M14, possibly with a fine thread, and probably marked Grade 10.9

Can anyone enlighten me either with the spec or tightening procedure?

Thanks in anticipation


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

Hi Glen

There are 3 types of front brakes on the Phaeton but luckily the 2 that use the caliper bracket use the same torque spec.

Per the manual they are called "Hexagon Flange Bolt" and the torque is 190Nm and it says to always renew after removing. Beyond that there are no special instructions provided and no reference to 90 degrees beyond a torque value or anything like that. Just good old fashioned pull hard on the wrench.

I believe the part number for both types of caliper is N90876802 "bolt, hex.hd.with.shoul.(combi)" M14X1,5X38

When I did my brakes I used new bolts. I know most, if not all shops, will reuse them (and I am pretty sure it would be ok), but they are only a few dollars each. And if I am going to spend hundreds on rotors and pads I am not going cheap on a few bolts. Especially the ones that hold the whole thing together!

John


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Hi Glen,

I see John has responded as well. 

The Caliper carrier bolts are 190 nm or 140 ft-lbs and indeed they're a one time use.

When I recently did my brake job, I used new bolts for the *front*, part number *N90876802, *, and for the *rear* part number *N90961103*.

As John rightly stated, they're very inexpensive in comparison to the rotors and pads, so you're right on heeding the manual.

Regards


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## Glen Lusset (Jul 7, 2017)

*Caliper Bracket Bolt Torques*

Gentlemen
Thank you very much for the prompt response to my question and the part number information.
I can order these fasteners from the dealer before I start work.
I had thought I would need to dismantle the braking system to find out the spec of the fastener, but you have saved me a lot of trouble and delay.

As a matter of interest, here in the UK the prices of brake components approximately:
Front Discs (360 dia) Bosch £65-00 each
Front Pads Bosch £120-00 per set
Rear Discs (310 dia) Bosch £50-00 Each
Rear Pads Brembo £50-00 per set
Say £420-00 including consumables and about 4 hours work.

Best wishes and thanks again for your help.
Glen


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

At 31k, I'd be surprised if the either rotors really need to be changed, particularly the rear. It's not a difficult job though, if anything it's easier on the P because there's so much space in the wheel well! As you can see from the thread, I use a micrometer on my rotors to check the width, after one set of pads they're usually just over 50% worn (V8).


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