# 16V head on an AEG?



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

I have been contemplating a 2020 for a while now and I finally have a good bottom end to build on. But before I drop some serious coin on an 20v head, I have a question that I have tried searching for.
Will a MkII 16V head work on an AEG engine?
I know if I were to get a 20v head, I would have to get custom notched pistons for the 5th valve. Is that still the case with the 16v head?
Are there any drawbacks to using a 16v head over a 20v head? 
Thanks.


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*

Ok, Well, I know the head will bolt onto the engine, but I still need to know how good will it do? Does anyone know?


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_I have been contemplating a 2020 for a while now and I finally have a good bottom end to build on. But before I drop some serious coin on an 20v head, I have a question that I have tried searching for.
Will a MkII 16V head work on an AEG engine? yes.
I know if I were to get a 20v head, I would have to get custom notched pistons for the 5th valve. Is that still the case with the 16v head? no, use 9a pistons/rods for N/A.
Are there any drawbacks to using a 16v head over a 20v head? less flow.
Thanks.
 There are a few obstacles to overcome but not impossible. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3749860


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (vwpat)*

Thanks Pat. I did see that thread, However the other thread that is linked in there has to do with putting a 16v head on an ABA which as we know has a different deck height than an AEG. If I am not mistaken, the AEG is taller than the ABA.
I am assuming you need the rods with the 9A pistons because of a different piston pin height?


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_Thanks Pat. I did see that thread, However the other thread that is linked in there has to do with putting a 16v head on an ABA which as we know has a different deck height than an AEG. If I am not mistaken, the AEG is taller than the ABA.
I am assuming you need the rods with the 9A pistons because of a different piston pin height?
The main thread is correct. Other way around, ABA is taller. You can use AEG rods (pretty sure they are 20 mm pin) but I prefer the 9A ones and to keep the pistons/rods together.


----------



## VWKING KONGVW (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*

Alright, I'm actualy attempting the same thing right now. And the reason i am going with the 16v head is because it flows higher CFM than the 20v. At .500lift, the 1.8t 20v head flowed 175CFM while the 16v head flowed 195CFM at .500lift. Plus i ported and polished the 16v to get a solid 240CFM at .500lift. Meaning more power. Now the piston bore and rod length is the same in the 90-93 2.0 16v as in the 2000 AEG block. So as long as the deck height is the same, we could run 90-93 2.0 16v pistons already pre-made. JE Pistons has a really nice set. i can't find a deck height for the 2.0 16v tho. The AEG is 8.700". If anybody knows what the 2.0 16v deck height is, it would really help us to say the least.


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (VWKING KONGVW)*

I found through an extensive google search the 9A (2.0 16v) deck height is 220mm which equates to 8.661".
Does that help or hurt us?


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*

I have also learned on some Vortex searching that the AEG is a 220mm deck height. So the AEG and 9A blocks share a similar deck height. This can only help us now....
I just need to know if there is any piston to valve interference when bolting a 9A head onto an AEG head??


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*

I have further learned that the AEG and 9A share alot of characteristics.
Block height on both is 220 mm's, Bore on both is 82.5mm's, stroke on both is 92.8 mm's.
The AEG compression ratio is 10.0:1 while the 9A is 10.8:1
The 9A Head combustion chamber volume is 46cc's.
I have been unable to find the head volume for the AEG engine. Maybe someone here has it?
What are the differences between the tops of the pistons of the AEG and 9A?
This may turn out to be a good swap after all....


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*

Good News and Bad News:
Good News: I think I finally have a definative answer on what it would take to put a 9A head on an AEG block.
Bad News: It looks like the minimum will be pistons
I have been looking for pictures of AEG and 9A pistons to compare them and I have found them.
9A








To see pictures of the AEG piston, you will have to Click on this link and scroll about half way down the page.
You can see the 9A pistons have a flat top with 2 valve reliefs, where as the AEG pistons are a dished piston with a ridge around the outer circumference of the piston. Unfortunately it looks like that ridge would interfere with the valves. 
More good news (if you plan on running NA) is that this should yield you the same 10.8:1 compression ratio that the 9a has and therefor should net you more HP.
I think I may just have to try it.
=^)



_Modified by fixmy59bug at 8:37 PM 4-10-2008_


----------



## B5Buddy (Jun 17, 2004)

*Re: 16V head on an AEG? (fixmy59bug)*

amazing lets keep this thread going b/c for us AEG people every mod counts and we can use all the help we can get and im sick of hearing all the vr and turbo guys saying to get rid of it... lets give em a run for their money now!!!!!


----------



## VWKING KONGVW (Oct 2, 2007)

All right everybody!! Great news! You CAN do the 16v on an AEG! Buuuuuuut yes you do have to change the pistons. That doesn’t really bother me as I was going to anyways. Je pistons makes a beautiful set of either 9.5:1 or I believe 11:1 for you doing N/A and want some more power. I’m ordering the pistons now, and I’ll be letting you guys know how it goes. I plan to run a 1.8t trany as well as it’ll be better suited for turbocharged applications. Thanks a lot for your help guys/girls?


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (VWKING KONGVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWKING KONGVW* »_All right everybody!! Great news! You CAN do the 16v on an AEG! Buuuuuuut yes you do have to change the pistons. That doesn’t really bother me as I was going to anyways. Je pistons makes a beautiful set of either 9.5:1 or I believe 11:1 for you doing N/A and want some more power. I’m ordering the pistons now, and I’ll be letting you guys know how it goes. I plan to run a 1.8t trany as well as it’ll be better suited for turbocharged applications. Thanks a lot for your help guys/girls?
for N/A, just use 9A pistons for 10.8:1.


----------



## Dan2.slow (Apr 10, 2008)

*Re: (vwpat)*

so ur sayin i could put a 20 v on an aeg and it would bolt right up and i would only have 2 get new pistons?


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (Dan2.slow)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dan2.slow* »_so ur sayin i could put a 20 v on an aeg and it would bolt right up and i would only have 2 get new pistons?
ok, we were talking 16v but to answer your question yes. I have N/A pistons for that combo (really for ABA block but would work in AEG with reamed rod bushings and yield even higher compression.)


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (vwpat)*

Ok, Here is the next roadblock with the 16v headswap.
The AEG engine uses 10mmx1.5x115mm head bolts
The 9a engine uses 11mmx1.5x144mm head bolts
So there are 3 options I can think of.
#1: Get custom spacers made to fit in the head to allow the use of 1.8T head bolts as they are 10mmx1.5x144mm.
#2: Tap out the block to use stock 9A 11mm head bolts
#3: Contact ARP and see if they will make stepped bolts. 10mm threads to go into the block and 11mm threads to go through the head.
I have already sent off an E-mail to them to see if they take oncustom orders.
I just checked and the 10mm head bolts protrude out of the head by 45mm on the 2.0 AEG.
Does anyone know how much the stock 9A bolts protrude out of the head?
The more info I can get the easier this job should be.....


----------



## Dan2.slow (Apr 10, 2008)

*Re: (fixmy59bug)*

yea i know but i saw on the top sumtin about the 20 v and i just wanted 2 confirm that and its a turbo chcarged engine so ur N/A pistons wont work + i plan on punching it out a lil and gettin all forged internals but thanks for the info


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_Ok, Here is the next roadblock with the 16v headswap.
The AEG engine uses 10mmx1.5x115mm head bolts
The 9a engine uses 11mmx1.5x144mm head bolts
So there are 3 options I can think of.
#1: Get custom spacers made to fit in the head to allow the use of 1.8T head bolts as they are 10mmx1.5x144mm.
*1.8T bolts are too short (115mm not 144.. they're the same size as the AEG)*
#2: Tap out the block to use stock 9A 11mm head bolts
#3: Contact ARP and see if they will make stepped bolts. 10mm threads to go into the block and 11mm threads to go through the head.
*~$600 for one off custom bolts*
I have already sent off an E-mail to them to see if they take oncustom orders.
I just checked and the 10mm head bolts protrude out of the head by 45mm on the 2.0 AEG.
Does anyone know how much the stock 9A bolts protrude out of the head?
The more info I can get the easier this job should be.....

one thing you need to know is that the AEG block head bolt holes are counter sunk ~ 3/4"... So that have no thread for the first 3/4". The 16v holes are not, or at least very little.


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (elRey)*

Damn. I was looking at that completely backwards. That's Ok though. I am sure I can find the correct bolts. Does anyone know exactly how much bolt passes through the head on the 9A heads? If someone could measure from the bolt seat to the deck, It would be greatly appreciated....


----------



## jsimam (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_Ok, Here is the next roadblock with the 16v headswap.
The AEG engine uses 10mmx1.5x115mm head bolts
The 9a engine uses 11mmx1.5x144mm head bolts
So there are 3 options I can think of.
#1: Get custom spacers made to fit in the head to allow the use of 1.8T head bolts as they are 10mmx1.5x144mm.
#2: Tap out the block to use stock 9A 11mm head bolts
#3: Contact ARP and see if they will make stepped bolts. 10mm threads to go into the block and 11mm threads to go through the head.
I have already sent off an E-mail to them to see if they take oncustom orders.
I just checked and the 10mm head bolts protrude out of the head by 45mm on the 2.0 AEG.
Does anyone know how much the stock 9A bolts protrude out of the head?
The more info I can get the easier this job should be.....

would option 2, tapping out the block to use 9a bolts damage the block in any way or compromise structural integrity? how much would this cost compared to getting custom head bolts? Thank you for your thoughts...


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (jsimam)*

Well, considering the original threads are just drilled and tapped into the block, I don't see there being any problem to enlarging the threads just a little bit.
The main problems I am running into now are:
#1 it is impossible to find new 9A pistons in the original 82.5mm bore. (I do not want to bore out a brand new block)
#2 running the CPS. I do not want a distributor sitcking out the side of the head with nothing going to it. It would definitely pass smog or the show circuit.
I am thinking I may have to revert back to my original plans of the 20/20


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_Well, considering the original threads are just drilled and tapped into the block, I don't see there being any problem to enlarging the threads just a little bit.
The main problems I am running into now are:
#1 it is impossible to find new 9A pistons in the original 82.5mm bore. (I do not want to bore out a brand new block)
#2 running the CPS. I do not want a distributor sitcking out the side of the head with nothing going to it. It would definitely pass smog or the show circuit.
I am thinking I may have to revert back to my original plans of the 20/20

I compared 16v and AEG rods side by side. There is a difference.
If you're going NA, just grab a good used set of 16v pistons and rods. I got 2 sets from a pull-a-part for $50 each set.
So you do not want to use the dizzy for the CPS? or can't?


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (elRey)*

ElRey, Might I ask what is the difference?
As far as won't or can't use the dizzy CPS, it is actually a matter of both.
I don't believe it will be viable due to smog reasons. I am attempting to do this and keep it as far under the smog radar as possible. 
Most of the smog techs out here don't know a head swap from the hole in their arse. So I am taking a chance and betting that once the head swap is done (and done right) they will never even know the head has been swapped. It will be painfully obvious with a dizzy sticking out of the side of the head with no spark plug wires going to it. I am sure that would confuse them to no end, and fail me.
Mean while if I use the 20v head, the head bolts would be OEM and I could splice in the 20v CPS in place of the AEG CPS. Of course I would still need a custom lower intake manifold, custom exhaust manifold, and of course the pistons. But that was also the scenario with the 16v head.


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_ElRey, Might I ask what is the difference?
As far as won't or can't use the dizzy CPS, it is actually a matter of both.
I don't believe it will be viable due to smog reasons. I am attempting to do this and keep it as far under the smog radar as possible. 
Most of the smog techs out here don't know a head swap from the hole in their arse. So I am taking a chance and betting that once the head swap is done (and done right) they will never even know the head has been swapped. It will be painfully obvious with a dizzy sticking out of the side of the head with no spark plug wires going to it. I am sure that would confuse them to no end, and fail me.
Mean while if I use the 20v head, the head bolts would be OEM and I could splice in the 20v CPS in place of the AEG CPS. Of course I would still need a custom lower intake manifold, custom exhaust manifold, and of course the pistons. But that was also the scenario with the 16v head.

You don't have to use the dizzy cap. 
And as for 20v vs 16v NA. 16v should cost A LOT less that 20v once the issues are worked out. 
in other words, a 16v head swap is just a poor man's 20v head swap


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (elRey)*

It is true, I could have an open dizzy sticking out of the side.
Unfortunately that still does not address the issue of the smog tech seeing the dizzy (even without the cap), and the asthetics of said dizzy.
Of course, if there was a way to attach a CPS where the dizzy goes, then I would be all set. Well as far as that goes.
The head bolts would still be another problem.
I think because I am so picky about the asthetics I am being forced to go with the 20v.


----------



## jsimam (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: (fixmy59bug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fixmy59bug* »_It is true, I could have an open dizzy sticking out of the side.
Unfortunately that still does not address the issue of the smog tech seeing the dizzy (even without the cap), and the asthetics of said dizzy.
Of course, if there was a way to attach a CPS where the dizzy goes, then I would be all set. Well as far as that goes.
The head bolts would still be another problem.
I think because I am so picky about the asthetics I am being forced to go with the 20v.

Quote, originally posted by don1588 »
as for the cps, it reads off of the cam gear in the aeg set up, so all you would have to do is retro fit a 8v cam gear with the cps and the little metal ring behind the cam gear(because the cps in aeg's work alot like a magnet or similar assembly )

Not going to happen. 1) AEG cam gear has wrong offset 2) 16v gear has wrong offset 3) the hall sensor, when in correct position to read trigger wheel behind cam gear, interferes with essential casting on head around camshanft
So, even if you manage to find the right cam gear and mount a Aeg trigger wheel to it, you won't be able to mount the sensor to read it. (at least the stock aeg sensor)-endquote
So now there are two problems aside from aesthetics, CPS, and camgear offset... any ideas? Also, what about vwkingkongvw's comment that the 16v head flows better than the 20v head? so many questions.


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (jsimam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsimam* »_
So now there are two problems aside from aesthetics, CPS, and camgear offset... any ideas? Also, what about vwkingkongvw's comment that the 16v head flows better than the 20v head? so many questions.

The cam gear issue is solved by using the internal waterpump block cam gear. The CPS can be solved by utilizing the 16V dizzy parts. 16v may flow better than a small port but not a large port. I will see if I can find Jose's (www.porttuning.com) comparison flow chart.


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (vwpat)*

For those thinking about this swap on an AZG or newer block with oil squirters, beware. The 9A pistons do not clear the AZG+ squirters.


----------



## jsimam (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: (vwpat)*

Hi everyone, 
for those of you who were working on the 16v conversion to an AEG block, i was wondering how it's going and if there are any new hurdles you have come across and also how you have solved the ones so far on this thread.
Thanks


----------



## jsimam (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: (vwpat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwpat* »_The cam gear issue is solved by using the internal waterpump block cam gear. The CPS can be solved by utilizing the 16V dizzy parts. 16v may flow better than a small port but not a large port. I will see if I can find Jose's (www.porttuning.com) comparison flow chart.

vwpat, can you explain the solution to the cam gear issue better please (forgive my lack of knowledge) and also talk a little more about how the CPS issue can be resolved with 16v distributor... your thoughts are appreciated


----------

