# K04 Running Lean



## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

*K04 Running Lean - HPFPupgrade stage 1 w/Uni*

I've been posting in various other threads but figured I'd start my own now.

My car has been running like crap since going K04 with the Unitronic tune at the start of the year. My mileage has been terrible, I'm running really lean (18.0% +) and getting the associated code P2177: Fuel Trim, Bank 1 too lean from idle. The car is also surging under load. The surging is most noticeable when ascending a hill in 6th gear doing between 65 and 80 mph at ~ 3000 RPM. It feels like a fueling problem and I've done the following: replaced plugs (new NGK BKR7EIX), replaced all 4 coil packs, replaced the fuel filter, added the RS4 rail valve, troubleshot the MAF by swapping the one from my wife's car, cleaned valves, and replaced S3 injectors with a new set. Unitronic has also provided another tune that hasn't helped.

What am I missing?


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## bacillus (Apr 21, 2011)

One member over this side of the pond had the same error that was eventually tracked down to his low fuel pressure sensor. Changing the sensor fixed his issue.

You case may be different but worth a shot.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

bacillus said:


> One member over this side of the pond had the same error that was eventually tracked down to his low fuel pressure sensor. Changing the sensor fixed his issue.
> 
> You case may be different but worth a shot.


Is there a measuring block I can check for the function of this sensor?


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

bacillus said:


> One member over this side of the pond had the same error that was eventually tracked down to his low fuel pressure sensor. Changing the sensor fixed his issue.
> 
> You case may be different but worth a shot.


Swapped low fuel pressure sensors with the one on my wife's Passat - no change. The fuel trim rose to 12.5% just going around the block.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

maybe your MAF readings are off?

perhaps unplug the MAF all together and see how it reacts? either that or a straightener.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

MAF readings look fine. I did run it with MAF unplugged and it still ran lean.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Is the stage 1 hpfp upgrade what they recommended to you? They told me stage 2 would be a best-fit for me if I were to use theirs.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

ROH ECHT said:


> Is the stage 1 hpfp upgrade what they recommended to you? They told me stage 2 would be a best-fit for me if I were to use theirs.


Yes, when I called John said I'd be fine running the stage 1 pump. A sub-optimal hpfp pump could explain the surging (possible fuel cuts), but could it cause the lean condition?


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## slowhatch (Jul 2, 2010)

johns stage 1 pump is good to 400+hp


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

I suppose you have run logs already?
And pressure is good at the rail and the lpfp?
What was done, if anything, right before the problem began?


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## ned216 (May 11, 2006)

i feel ur pain im having issues to since my ko4 early this year like you also have hpfp from john stage 1


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

i have a feeling i should have just ordered the stage 2 pump from him... build for the future and all... :banghead:


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Krieger said:


> i have a feeling i should have just ordered the stage 2 pump from him... build for the future and all... :banghead:


I know his STG 1 pump works well with a STG 2+ car as that's what my buddy is running in his GLI. The main difference between the STG 1/2 is the bore size of the fuel delivery. He expands the size of the fuel ports to allow more volume. I did run John's STG 1 pump while we were developing things without any lean faults and ran the KMD pump for almost 8 months on my K04 without any lean issues. So I'm not sure if it's 100% to blame on not going with the STG 2 pump since both of those were only larger internals. 

Do you have any logs of anything yet?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

i just placed my order last night. from the site it seemed that the stg 1 pipe would be fine up to k04 or stock rods with a BT and stg 2 for anything higher, like a full gt30 build.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Krieger said:


> i just placed my order last night. from the site it seemed that the stg 1 pipe would be fine up to k04 or stock rods with a BT and stg 2 for anything higher, like a full gt30 build.


Yea.......he just sent me a STG 2 and asked me to run it and give feedback. So I figured going bigger now would be better when I go bigger turbo.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

jhines_06gli said:


> Do you have any logs of anything yet?


This was before installing the RS4 Rail Valve and cleaning valves.

Group B: '230 
Rail Pressure Rail Pressure Rail Pressure
TIME (specified) (actual) Difference
STAMP bar bar bar
0.24 78.7 81.9 -3.19
0.49 83.2 84.5 -1.17
0.75 88.3 91.5 -3.29
1 92.2 95.4 -3.4
1.27 95.4 101.1 -5.75
1.52 97.3 101.8 -4.59
1.79 98.6 97.3 1.08
2.04 99.8 97.3 2.94
2.3 101.8 102.4 -0.71
2.55 103.7 106.2 -2.48
2.82 105.6 110.7 -5.31
3.07 107.5 113.3 -5.29
3.33 110.1 125.4 -14.89
3.58 113.3 123.5 -10.55
3.85 116.5 126.1 -9.39
4.1 121 128.6 -7.53
4.37 126.7 128.6 -2.17
4.62 128.6 129.9 -1.56
4.88 129.3 129.3 -0.09
5.13 129.3 115.2 14.25
5.39 129.9 121.6 7.77
5.65 129.9 122.9 7
5.91 129.9 123.5 6.44


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

Group A: '002 
Engine Speed Engine Load Injection Intake Air Mass
TIME Timing 
STAMP /min % ms g/s
0.12 2080 67.7 2.55 33.81
0.36 2240 66.2 2.29 35.64
0.63 2920 78.2 3.06 55.97
0.88 3080 95.5 3.83 74.89
1.15 3320 117.3 4.59 97.94
1.4 3600 145.9 5.61 133.36
1.66 3880 172.9 6.88 154.72
1.92 4240 178.9 7.14 158.78
2.18 4640 181.2 6.88 177.5
2.43 4880 175.2 6.88 180.06
2.69 5160 171.4 6.63 187.28
2.94 5400 166.2 6.12 189.72
3.21 5680 161.7 6.12 193.69
3.46 5920 158.6 5.61 199.83
3.73 6200 157.1 5.61 203.86
3.97 6400 151.9 5.36 207.06
4.24 6680 145.9 5.1 208.61
4.5 6880 142.9 5.1 211.11
4.76 7000 140.6 4.84 212.08
5.01 5640 103 2.81 107.31
5.27 5280 115 4.34 156.94
5.52 5160 155.6 5.61 195.31
5.79 5280 167.7 5.87 188.08


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Just seems odd that they looked at my K04 +mods and suggested stage 2 pump but you guys have stage 1.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

i would too. you pay more, but at the same time, your not going to be stressing your pump as much if it can flow more, easier.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

Could the rear PCV/Breather cause a lean condition? If so, How?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Your MAF numbers seem pretty low for a K04....

Also you have a negative deviation at times above 10 bar between the
requested and the actual (meaning the actual is more) which "could"
be the problem since most K04's run at 130 bar requested rail pressure.

Of course the above stand if the log is done as a whole in WOT, otherwise
it could just mean a reaction to you stepping on the gas.

I would be nice to see some lambda logs as well as block 001....


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

ROH ECHT said:


> I suppose you have run logs already?
> And pressure is good at the rail and the lpfp?
> What was done, if anything, right before the problem began?


The problem seems to have started with the install of the Unitronic K04 tune. The K04 hardware was installed the last week of December. I got the K04 tune the first week of January. In the time I had the K04 hardware installed and before the tune, my mileage remained pretty close to normal (30MPG highway). Although I was clearly running rich. After the Unitronic tune was installed I was still in the break in period for the new HPFP so I never opened it up, yet my mileage immediately sunk below 20MPG and the car never felt right.

I knew something wasn't right so I opened a support ticket with Unitonic. They noticed that the 030 software file was installed instead of the 040 software file. So I had the 040 file installed. Of course that didn't help so I bought a vagcom so I could do some logging. This is when I noticed that it was very lean. 

I still had the support ticket open with Unitronic so I sent some log files. My timing was really bad. Unitronic suggested that I was using some really bad gas so the next few tanks I ran 92 octane (the highest I could find around here). I was still running lean, the mileage was still aweful and the car still felt like it was in constant limp mode. I did some more logging, the timing was improved but still not good. At this point I installed new plugs, coils, fuel filter and troubleshot the MAF. None of this helped. Unitronic offered a 91 octane K04 file. I had it installed. It didn't help.

I then did the RS4 rail valve, cleaned the valves, and replaced the S3 injectors. It still ran lean lean.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

This was after plugs, coils, fuel filter. Before the 91 Octane file, rail valve, valve cleaning.

Group B:	'020 
Cylinder 1 Ignition	Cylinder 2 Ignition	Cylinder 3 Ignition	Cylinder 4 Ignition
TIME	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	Angle Delay
STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW
0.33	0	0	0	0
0.72	0	0	0	0
1.11	0	0	0	0
1.48	-5.3	-3.8	-6	-4.5
1.88	-5.3	-6.8	-4.5	-6.8
2.27	-5.3	-6.8	-4.5	-6.8
2.66	-5.3	-6.8	-4.5	-6.8
3.04	-5.3	-6.8	-4.5	-6.8
3.43	-5.3	-6.8	-4.5	-6.8
3.82	-5.3	-6.8	-4.5	-6.8
4.21	-4.5	-6.8	-3.8	-6.8
4.58	-4.5	-6.8	-3.8	-6.8
4.97	-4.5	-6	-3.8	-6.8
5.36	-3.8	-6	-3	-6


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

Group C:	'115 
Engine Speed	Engine Load	Boost Pressure	Boost Pressure
TIME (specified)	(actual)
STAMP /min % mbar mbar
0.08	2000	14.3	270	850
0.45	2240	62.4	2450	830
0.84	2320	69.9	2490	940
1.23	2800	84.2	2490	1080
1.63	4320	118.8	2460	1530
2	5160	154.9	2340	1910
2.39	6280	153.4	2270	1860
2.78	6920	142.9	2150	1780
3.17	5000	97	2320	1400
3.55	5080	151.1	2310	1920
3.94	5520	166.2	2300	2040
4.33	5920	159.4	2270	1960
4.72	6360	153.4	2230	1870
5.1	6720	146.6	2160	1820


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

Group C:	'003 
Engine Speed	Intake Air Mass	Throttle Drive	Ignition
TIME Angle Sensor 1	Timing Angle
STAMP /min g/s % °BTDC
0.27	2320	36.69	99.6	17.3
0.64	3120	62.53	80.4	22.5
1.03	3680	103.47	99.6	9.8
1.42	4760	177.83	99.6	3
1.82	6200	197.28	99.6	9.8
2.19	5720	184.64	99.6	6
2.58	6480	204.11	99.6	11.3
2.97	4960	91.22	33.3	10.5
3.37	4800	180.36	99.2	1.5
3.74	5200	186.89	99.6	6
4.13	5600	191	99.6	5.3
4.52	6000	197.17	99.6	8.3
4.91	6320	203.06	99.6	10.5


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

Group C:	'115 
Engine Speed	Engine Load	Boost Pressure	Boost Pressure
TIME (specified)	(actual)
STAMP /min % mbar mbar
0.01	1960	24.1	410	860
0.37	2280	67.7	2390	850
0.76	3160	74.4	2490	1000
1.16	3840	110.5	2480	1440
1.54	4960	160.2	2340	2040
1.92	6280	151.9	2250	1860
2.31	6280	145.1	2240	1770
2.7	5840	149.6	280	1810
3.09	4560	142.9	2320	1830
3.46	4960	169.9	2290	2100
3.86	5360	164.7	2280	2030
4.25	5760	157.1	2270	1990
4.64	6160	154.9	2240	1910
5.01	6440	147.4	2200	1830
5.4	6760	142.1	2130	1800


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Stop posting boost logs...

You are having a lean state as you say, boost values don't mean much if you
don't have the fueling data....

You timing pull is also bad which (if there isn't any hardware issue) means you
are running bad gas (or your timing is too much for your gas...).

Post some fuel data if you want someone to help.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

One of best laid out "plain English" logging supports out there. And when you make it into graphs, it's 1,000,000X easier to read and quicker to see you issues! You have Excel or similar?

http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

ok guys im working on OP vehicle, i found a boost leak which i fixed also installed new rear breather and hose it was cracked,and found vaccuum line broken, i have also removed intake manifold and installed new intake gasket and cleaned throttle body. 

car is actually running leaner now, i thought fixing the boost leak and vaccum leak it would be better but i believe now its seeing all requested boost were before it was not that it is actually running leaner. 

i will follow apr logging chart and get them posted. 

really want this car fixed as its now driving me nuts. i have tried new maf out of box no diffrence also performed capacitive discharge. to clear all fuel trim memory. 

can not for the life of me find any more vaccuum leaks using leak detection spray, 

i did install the hardware and have been over every inch of the install to check and make sure its not the problem.


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## dave.c (Mar 5, 2009)

Worn intake cam lobe by chance?...I mean you checked all the rest...


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

I know this is stupid and BASIC, but had this kick my ass for 45 minutes on my buddy's GTI on afternoon. What's the condition of the air filter? Is it brand new from when the K04 was installed? And what intake is on the car?
-J. Hines


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

jhines_06gli said:


> I know this is stupid and BASIC, but had this kick my ass for 45 minutes on my buddy's GTI on afternoon. What's the condition of the air filter? Is it brand new from when the K04 was installed? And what intake is on the car?
> -J. Hines


Neuspeed intake. It was installed a couple months before the K04 hardware with the AWE DV reroute.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

utahvwman said:


> Neuspeed intake. It was installed a couple months before the K04 hardware with the AWE DV reroute.


And filter is good? The one that came with the intake?


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

started car with no airfilter on it in the shop, did not drive it, but you can rev this car and it will go up to 20% lean, was no help at all. 


i did not get all the logs done today i will get them tomorrow then im sending them over to quinn who will then send them to uni. 


i just working to get this fixed i have pretty much done a whole other ko4 swap just trying to find the problem if there is one. :banghead:


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

also vehicle is running lean not rich so that rules out a clogged filter also.


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## kevin160 (Nov 16, 2009)

Yes fixing the boost leak will cause you to run leaner because you are adding more air. A clogged fuel filter could cause a lean condtion. Like others have said. Log your fueling. Block 103, 106 and 230 are all fuel related.


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## 2006vwgtipower (Jul 27, 2006)

do you have a factory front pcv valve or do u have the block off plate or catch can, the front pcv or crankcase breather valve its a common culprit of system too lean at idle


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

kevin160 said:


> Yes fixing the boost leak will cause you to run leaner because you are adding more air. A clogged fuel filter could cause a lean condtion. Like others have said. Log your fueling. Block 103, 106 and 230 are all fuel related.


Fuel filter was changed already as part of the troubleshooting. 



2006vwgtipower said:


> do you have a factory front pcv valve or do u have the block off plate or catch can, the front pcv or crankcase breather valve its a common culprit of system too lean at idle


I've used both the BSH PCV revamp and the stock PCV setup. Lean condition persists with either one. The factory PCV is on the car now.


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

I've been fighting this lean condition for three months now and have had an open ticket with Unitronic since early January. I left my car with a friend who is a VW tech over a month ago. He's gone over every piece of hardware and can't find any problems. He did some logging and has sent it to Unitronic. That was more than a week ago and we can't get a reply from Unitronic.

At this point is it worth trying another tune (APR, GIAC)?


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## utahvwman (Jan 3, 2005)

Here is the latest on the lean condition I've been fighting since the first week of January.

Unironic are fairly certain the lean condition is a result of an incompatibility between the HPFPupgrade pump and their tunes. Unitronic posted the following in the support ticket I have open with them. This resulted in a new tune for the HPFPupgrade pump.



Unitronic said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't work as you just bolts part and the ecu does the rest. This is something that is too many time forgotten by people who develop hardware for these car. The ecu simulate the flow of the pump because it has an internal calibration base on the diameter of the piston inside the pump. Using a different size piston represent a different volume of fuel pressurized in the rail, resulting in wrong calculation by the ecu. This is enough to throw the fuel trims out like your case. All our programs are based on Autotech/KMD/APR since they all use same at 1/10th of millimeter close.


After I posted in the support ticket that my fuel trim was still lean Unitronic posted the following in my ticket last Thursday:



Unitronic said:


> This week another customer came for the same issue, he was using also the same pump as you.
> 
> We think the fuel pump doesn't build the pressure as it is suppose from factory. Since they use different tolerances, I guess it doesn't build up pressure as it is supposed to, so leading to a slightly lower pressure.
> 
> ...


I put almost 500 miles on the adjusted tune and my fuel trims this morning were -2.3% and 16%. Still lean off idle. I'm hopeful Unitronic can find a software solution. Or at this point should I just get a different pump (APR, KMD, Autotech)?


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## GLIVdubbin (Aug 27, 2012)

Did you solve this issue?


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## juniorM (Feb 19, 2015)

I just installed my k04 with unitronic tune, and im getting a too lean at idle as well. My shop thinks that since the air intake that i have does not utilize the stock maf that this is making it read too lean. Ill be installing the stock maf soon to see if this fixes the problem.


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## Zuber Speed (Oct 7, 2001)

ever get this resolved?


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