# So what kind of HP is a FrankenTurbo F23 good for?



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

My favorite answer when customers ask me this is, "enough to make you love your car again." But sometimes a more quantitative answer is also helpful. And this is especially true in an environment that is increasingly becoming about who's turbo is "best". So while I can't make a sweeping statement about our products being best, I can say this: our F23 makes good power. Enough so that it has achieved the highest horsepower recorded by any stock-frame turbocharger available for the 1.8T transversal engine. And it did so on 93 octane pump -- with a long list of mods including water methanol injection.

Does this make our product "better" than those of our competitors? For that matter, does the number below really prove our turbo is the most powerful hybrid K04? Hard to say. But I can assure you that we at FrankenTurbo still do believe in power. It goes hand-in-hand with our industry-leading warranty protection and with our ever-growing list of tuning partners worldwide.

So, for the record, the F23 numbers in UNCORRECTED format:


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Lastly, for those of you wondering about the discrepancy between the numbers in the video and those in the chart above, it is because, as a practice we don't market our power figures using numbers-friendly uncorrected values. Others do, though. So now we have a very accurate apples-to-apples comparison. To view this graph, formatted with correction values applied, (along with many others, all with corrections applied), you can go to our product marketing page on our website. Or you can simply look here:


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Thanks again to ForceFed Engineering and Eurodyne for their invaluable support in this achievement. 


Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)




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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

That's cool...

Why don't you list the REST of the modifications that it took to make that power :facepalm:

CAMS
W/M
50+ runs on the dyno
Stroker Motor
etc.
etc.
etc.


C'mon man...

All I have to say is your Competitor is making more HP and TQ with NO mods other than tuning for E85.

So to be HONEST with the people you should be telling them that you need, 
$1,762 for the F23 turbo kit
$500-700 for cams
$400-800 for rods
$300 for injectors
$600 for w/m injection
$900 for Eurodyne Maestro

and with that we've got: *$3,862* (and that's the lower total) Yeah... When you tell a story how about telling the WHOLE story. Also the FACT that there's no "canned" tune capable of those numbers for the F23. The only way you're making those numbers are with LOTS of dyno time and custom tuning.

Lets compare:
With ~$2,200 (including rods) you can make 360-400whp / 380+lbft on "another" hybrid
or
you can go BT and make 350+whp all day for $3,910 + $400 for rods (depending on turbo choice from) PPT

Bye Bye FT you are now OBSOLETE :wave:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

:beer: That's my car! 

I have a few more modifications in store for one last dyno session. Should hopefully come together this weekend or next.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> :beer: That's my car!
> 
> I have a few more modifications in store for one last dyno session. Should hopefully come together this weekend or next.


I want to be clear I have no animosity towards you Steve. Now put some E85 in there eace:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

lets correct that "mod" list:

AEB with autotech intake cam. ($200 for cam when it first came out, 200 for the head from a friend)
water meth ($300?)
Largeport intake mani with s4 TB (friend made it for me)
FMIC 
3" Turboback
STOCK DISPLACEMENT on 93 octane 
Eurodyne Maestro
Ported stock exhaust manifold (in dyno video. Now ported JBS manifold)
Frankenturbo F23


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

E85 is never going to be an option. In the NYC tristate metro are there is not one station within 30 miles of my home. Not really realistic. 

The car also didn't need 50+ runs on the dyno. It was tuned by ME and Maestro on the street and then fine tuned in afew pulls on the dyno. The only reason my car was on the dyno so many times was to document power level changes between specific modifications. I wouldn't say thats a bad thing. I know what modification helped, and which ones did not.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Maybe by "uncorrected" he means an inaccurate list of mods.. (?) :wave:

And Steve, what if you switched files and could fill up with E85.. Would you?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

warranty225cpe said:


> Maybe by "uncorrected" he means an inaccurate list of mods.. (?) :wave:


I posted my modifications. It's my car I think I know what's in it. What's inaccurate? I'll edit that post to add ported stock manifold (in the dyno video) and F23.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

spartiati said:


> I posted my modifications. It's my car I think I know what's in it. What's inaccurate? I'll edit that post to add ported stock manifold and F23


Nah man, I wasnt referring to your list. Just Dougs. Ive got no beef here.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> That's cool...
> All I have to say is your Competitor is making more HP and TQ with NO mods other than tuning for E85.


You can't compare one turbo on e85 vs another on pump. E85 greatly increases the ability to advance timing way beyond what is capable on pump gas, even with water meth.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

spartiati said:


> You can't compare one turbo on e85 vs another on pump. E85 greatly increases the ability to advance timing way beyond what is capable on pump gas, even with water meth.


Very true but the OP didn't state what mods your car had.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Let's keep it positive people. A little competition is good for everyone. No need to make it negative.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

groggory said:


> Let's keep it positive people. A little competition is good for everyone. No need to make it negative.


Im with you. Just making an observation. I dont think it was Dougs intent to mislead anyone. I just think in the spirit of full disclosure, there was some important info left out of his pitch. Yes, E85 and pump are totally different animals. But ported mani, cams, WM, and a custom tune make a pretty sizable difference. Not trying to stir things up. But it seems much of FTs posts have a general WTF aspect to them..


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

groggory said:


> Let's keep it positive people. A little competition is good for everyone. No need to make it negative.


Agreed.:beer::beer::beer:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

warranty225cpe said:


> Im with you. Just making an observation. I dont think it was Dougs intent to mislead anyone. I just think in the spirit of full disclosure, there was some important info left out of his pitch. Yes, E85 and pump are totally different animals. But ported mani, cams, WM, and a custom tune make a pretty sizable difference. Not trying to stir things up. But it seems much of FTs posts have a general WTF aspect to them..


Doug posted in the OP, "And it did so on 93 octane pump -- with a long list of mods including water methanol injection.". 

I posted my mods afew posts later. Maybe Doug can edit the OP and add them in to keep everyone happy.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

spartiati said:


> Doug posted in the OP, "And it did so on 93 octane pump -- with a long list of mods including water methanol injection.".
> 
> I posted my mods afew posts later. Maybe Doug can edit the OP and add them in to keep everyone happy.



I wasnt kicking tires Steve. Just realized that some pretty important info was missing :beer:


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

I just love the fact the Capitalism is creating a breeding ground for serious product development for the MK4 platform moreover the 1.8T.

Keep up the battle, just don't kill each other.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

spartiati said:


> :beer: That's my car!
> 
> I have a few more modifications in store for one last dyno session. Should hopefully come together this weekend or next.


I'm planning on heading over to ForceFed to dyno again the weekend after H2O...

How about we have a friendly show down, same dyno, same day? It's never going to answer anything about F23 vs. GTT because I'm on E85 and you have a big port, cam and WMI, but I think it would be good for the community to see a pair of hybrids putting out close to 400whp two very different ways. :thumbup:

Oh yea Steve... Loser buys :beer::beer:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

About that highest stock frame turbo HP uncorrected:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Whats new with the car? Isn't that video like a year old?


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

4ceFed4 said:


> About that highest stock frame turbo HP uncorrected:


 Actually MadMax beat you on that IIRC but I think you will both be in the 400whp+ stock frame turbo club soon


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

4ceFed4 said:


> I'm planning on heading over to ForceFed to dyno again the weekend after H2O...
> 
> How about we have a friendly show down, same dyno, same day? It's never going to answer anything about F23 vs. GTT because I'm on E85 and you have a big port, cam and WMI, but I think it would be good for the community to see a pair of hybrids putting out close to 400whp two very different ways. :thumbup:
> 
> Oh yea Steve... Loser buys :beer::beer:


Best thing I've heard out of this thread yet. A little head to head would be cool! I really wish there was a way to get the F23 and GTT to go head to head with equal mods. Honestly, if the F23 is on a canned tune and the GTT is on one of Gonzos tunes, I already know the answer.. It would be great for the community though. Competition could spur raising the bar for the "small frame" crowd. 400whp out of a Ko3/4 hybrid..:what:
Yup, right around the corner.

Edit: I almost want to say F23+cam+big port+WM = GTT on E85. I know that's a bit of an assumption, but it would make sense that you guys are about on the same level power wise.


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## donner454 (May 11, 2013)

^This^ 

For all the money you spend pushing it to the max, I'd just stick with a package PPT kit and you'll be happy with your 450HP+

do it once, twice or three times


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

360 - 400whp on a stock frame turbo... tehehehe. It's sort of a moot point to blast each other when the car can't run those power levels safely, and reliably, for the long haul, without forged internals, an upgraded clutch, or something like E85 or W/M to keep the knock down.

You *have* to upgrade a bunch of stuff to do those power levels consistently, so saying one isn't as good as the other is just hogwash.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

toby lawrence said:


> 360 - 400whp on a stock frame turbo... tehehehe. It's sort of a moot point to blast each other when the car can't run those power levels safely, and reliably, for the long haul, without forged internals, an upgraded clutch, or something like E85 or W/M to keep the knock down.
> 
> You *have* to upgrade a bunch of stuff to do those power levels consistently, so saying one isn't as good as the other is just hogwash.


E85 + rods + pump & injectors. It's not rocket surgery :laugh:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

warranty225cpe said:


> E85 + rods + pump & injectors. It's not rocket surgery :laugh:


Oh, sure. It's really simple... add fuel and air. People like to complicate it, though. I was mostly commenting on the bashing of "oh well you needed cams and W/M to get that power with XYZ kit!" etc etc. While you could literally compare the GTT kit to the FT kit, both as advertised, with two bone stock cars.... it's a terrible comparison because nobody is going to be able to run either of those kits to their full potential without add-ons. Also, the bashing is even more insidious because both of the aforementioned kits include a lot of stuff.... inlet pipes, exhaust manifolds, etc. Nobody is literally just putting in a new turbo and making 350whp.

People out in the real world aren't making cracks about the turbo you're running or the cams you had to put in to make the power you're making... if you're running 12s at the strip, you're running 12s. If you're hauling your heavy FWD car around an autocross track faster than anyone else, you're hauling your heavy FWD car around an autocross track faster than anyone else. Plain and simple.


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## mk4boost (Jul 31, 2010)

4ceFed4 said:


> I'm planning on heading over to ForceFed to dyno again the weekend after H2O...
> 
> How about we have a friendly show down, same dyno, same day? It's never going to answer anything about F23 vs. GTT because I'm on E85 and you have a big port, cam and WMI, but I think it would be good for the community to see a pair of hybrids putting out close to 400whp two very different ways. :thumbup:
> 
> Oh yea Steve... Loser buys :beer::beer:



^ I'd love to see this... There's certainly much more hp to gain from an e85 tune... Maybe we can convince Steve to fill up a tank for the day, there's one right by ffe Steve I'll bring you there 

No one is trying to hide/prove anything here, Doug is merely showing results of his product, I don't see what the attacking and "competitor" talk is, I've had my f23 for 3 years without issue, whose to say it's not a good product, I've done plenty of dyno runs and logs to prove its a worthwhile setup. No it's not the biggest fastest turbo on the road, but that's not the objective. The title if the thread isn't "my turbo will kill gonzo." It's just a couple dyno graphs showing some collected data to share with the community


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Actually the statement of pushing the hybrids to the point of being unreliable isn't true. We've proven on both sides of the fence that these turbos can make upwards of 300-350whp reliably. Spartiati has been running his FT for a long time with no stated issues, I've been running the GTT more than 2 years now putting down 303whp on 93oct and now I'm running either E85 or 93oct depending on availability. The point is I've got over 15K (probably more like 20K) Steve's got who knows how many miles on his FT and I know my turbo has no signs of failure. There's no leaks, no shaft play, nothing. 

While BT is awesome and is the best way to make 350+WHP these Stock framed turbos are a blast to drive when they are making more than 300whp. The lack of lag and the massive tq that goes with the WHP makes these a really fun and quick setup. I've run many different cars and setups and I've put more than one BT MK4 (not to mention real cars... STI's Camaros 5.0's etc etc) in the rear view with this stock framed turbo. For the 1/8th mile they're great too since the spool is so quick.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> Actually the statement of pushing the hybrids to the point of being unreliable isn't true. We've proven on both sides of the fence that these turbos can make upwards of 300-350whp reliably. Spartiati has been running his FT for a long time with no stated issues, I've been running the GTT more than 2 years now putting down 303whp on 93oct and now I'm running either E85 or 93oct depending on availability. The point is I've got over 15K (probably more like 20K) Steve's got who knows how many miles on his FT and I know my turbo has no signs of failure. There's no leaks, no shaft play, nothing.


No no no. The engine itself, not the turbo. Stock rods and the stock clutch are only going to last so long at those power levels. That was my point. There's no way to apples-to-apples compare these two kits because they both need things beyond what comes in the kits to have a reliable car.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

toby lawrence said:


> No no no. The engine itself, not the turbo. Stock rods and the stock clutch are only going to last so long at those power levels. That was my point. There's no way to apples-to-apples compare these two kits because they both need things beyond what comes in the kits to have a reliable car.


IMO once these cars get much over 300 whp...

* poly motor mounts
* poly dogbone
* strut tops refresher
* rods
* in-cabin boost gauge
* vag com/ diagnostic stuff
* lsd
* maybe even upgraded axles

I'm with Toby here. Once your car is making nicely over 300..325'ish whp you are gonna find other weak links in the car right quick


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

toby lawrence said:


> Oh, sure. It's really simple... add fuel and air. People like to complicate it, though. I was mostly commenting on the bashing of "oh well you needed cams and W/M to get that power with XYZ kit!" etc etc. While you could literally compare the GTT kit to the FT kit, both as advertised, with two bone stock cars.... it's a terrible comparison because nobody is going to be able to run either of those kits to their full potential without add-ons. Also, the bashing is even more insidious because both of the aforementioned kits include a lot of stuff.... inlet pipes, exhaust manifolds, etc. Nobody is literally just putting in a new turbo and making 350whp.
> 
> People out in the real world aren't making cracks about the turbo you're running or the cams you had to put in to make the power you're making... if you're running 12s at the strip, you're running 12s. If you're hauling your heavy FWD car around an autocross track faster than anyone else, you're hauling your heavy FWD car around an autocross track faster than anyone else. Plain and simple.


Yup, pretty much.

Only some of us aren't FWD 

No one is trying to hide/prove anything here, Doug is merely showing results of his product, I don't see what the attacking and "competitor" talk is, I've had my f23 for 3 years without issue, whose to say it's not a good product, I've done plenty of dyno runs and logs to prove its a worthwhile setup. No it's not the biggest fastest turbo on the road, but that's not the objective. The title if the thread isn't "my turbo will kill gonzo." It's just a couple dyno graphs showing some collected data to share with the community[/QUOTE]

I haven't seen anyone get attacked. Let's keep it that way eace:



groggory said:


> IMO once these cars get much over 300 whp...
> 
> * poly motor mounts
> * poly dogbone
> ...


 Sure, the list gets long. But all builds do. Who stops at a CAI and is happy. You have to support them. I guess it's that "you gotta pay to play" mentality. Most people don't take in to account all the things/parts/upgrades that are involved. It all adds up pretty quickly. Other than the rods on your list Grogg, that's all pretty much standard fare for modding. Hell, axles go out with stock level power.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

I don't understand the point of any of this... Of course you're going to need the same supporting mods as power levels increase, whether its a FT, GTT or BT. The point of this thread is finding the upper limit of these turbos, NOT telling the average penny-pinching vortexes what they should expect out of these kit.

Besides accomplishing what I have on the dyno, I beat on the car regularly at autocross and track events. I've invested what I have in rods, Raxles, a fluidampr, E85 conversion, FX400, LSD, etc so that I dont have to worry about breakdowns at the track. If I was just dailying the car could I get away with having little or none of that stuff? Absolutely, although I'm sure not for long with the temptation to boost always nagging.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Actually MadMax beat you on that IIRC but I think you will both be in the 400whp+ stock frame turbo club soon


I thought Max was still around 300whp with a ton of torque on the side?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for everyone keeping things civilized and mature in here. I was hoping it wasn't going to turn into one of "those" threads.

Jeff I would love to come out and compare. I feel it would be the "best" comparison, as you and I would be on the same dyno on the same day. Alas though most of my free time is spent studying. Graduate school has essentially consumed most if not all of my free time. Social life is all but extinct for now. 

This segways nicely, since I've essentially opened up a can of worms with my car. I started by going in to remove the exhaust mani to get ceramic coated since I was in a rush to install it when I first received it. From there I figured I may as well address the cracked wiring harness to the coilpacks. Also changing all the coolant bits to metal alternatives. We all have been there. Start with one little thing and then before you know it half the engine bay is taken apart for some preventative maintenance. I dedicate an hour here and there between studying but it'll get there. 

I agree with most of the comments said within the thread thus far. 

@ DMVDUB: I agree that I love the response of these turbos. We are essentially trying to have our cake and eat it too with what we are essentially trying to get out of them. Before I sent my manifold out I port matched it as well as removed a ton of material from the converging cyl 1+2.

@ Groggory and Toby: Essentially most 1.8t's in those power levels are going to need a ton more parts to make them reliable. The list you made sums that up nicely. Pretty much everything is already done. 

In regards to my F23; It has been in my car probably since 2010-11 (can't remember exactly) before the forums even knew it existed. Doug approached me one day when we just happened to be at FFE same day. Since then it's been through 3 waterfests (dyno and auto-x), 6 show n go's (both fall and spring), Countless drag passes, tons of auto-x, 30k of civilized driving, and 6 track days. Shaft play is essentially the same as when I first put it in. It happily chugs along to 16psi daily and 24psi when I want to have more fun. Car makes 300whp @ 16psi and just over 350whp @ 24. Egt's on the roadcourse running 93 pump and WMI I see roughly 1575*F peak temps (running 20psi constantly). Best 1/4 mile time was a 13.5 @ 110mph w/a 2.4 60ft (I love this video because my cousin just wanted to have fun with his M3: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=664817703094&l=8067218601134744612 . Terrible traction at the time thanks to bald tires. Getting the 60' down to 1.9 or 2.0 would surely get me into the 12's.

Not claiming it's the best turbo in the world but it does everything I want it to do. IMO I don't really need any more power. 350whp is more than enough to get you in trouble real fast here in NYC. Also much more than that and you are in the realm of breaking things regularly. Doug has been nothing short of great in terms of Customer service. He has a great warranty program as well. If I ever blow the turbo then I can call him up, drive to his house (45 minutes away) and gladly pickup another turbo to swap in. That's one main reason I never thought to upgrade to a larger frame turbo. 

This is my rant. Not here to say mine is better than yours. Just enjoying the product I purchased and putting it through hell every time I take it to the track. If anyone wants to know anything else in regards to my setup then please let me know.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

My point in my first post is what someone else mentioned. You make videos showing someone making 350whp and people will buy a kit, slap it on their car, dyno it making ~250-270whp and be pissed. 

I've seen it so many times it's ridiculous. A company says 400hp capable and the consumer assumes that they buy whatever it is and they instantly have 400hp. They totally miss the CAPABLE part.

None of us making large numbers on hybrids have even remotely stock setups. Some have a lot more than others, but none of us have just a kit. 

We are running internals, cams, w/m, exotic fuels, high flow manifolds, custom tuning, ported / big port heads, intake manifolds, stroked motors, etc. 

I'm glad Spartiati chimed in with his mods, so nobody gets the impression he is just running a FT and making those numbers. 

I admit, I found the wording of this to be suspect. This is why I interjected. The competition states what you will make out of the box with their kit. I feel it's more Spartiati's place to post his car and the power he is making from his setup. The only thing FT did was provide the turbo kit, Steve did the magic in the tune that made the power possible. This is the same for 4ceFed4, he can brag about his numbers all day long, and I would find it equally out of place for G'Tuning to say here's our 400whp turbo! The competition says, 250whp kit, capable of 350whp+. 

I found this to be misleading, and since Gonzo Tuning is now an advertiser again FT has to up their game to compete. It's not Doug's accomplishment, it's spartiati's and if he wants to use it for advertising ALL of spartiatis modifications should be listed as to not "fool" a potential customer. 

It's one thing if Spartiati becomes the new "frankenproject" and fully sponsored by FT to show the full potential of the kit, as well as letting people know that there's been heavy modifications to the car. This would probably be the best bet for FT since the FrankenTT is such a joke. Showing off Steve's car is a much better bet than letting people see all of the ridiculous things that were done to that poor TT (only thing need mention... Frankencooler).


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> My point in my first post is what someone else mentioned. You make videos showing someone making 350whp and people will buy a kit, slap it on their car, dyno it making ~250-270whp and be pissed.
> 
> I've seen it so many times it's ridiculous. A company says 400hp capable and the consumer assumes that they buy whatever it is and they instantly have 400hp. They totally miss the CAPABLE part.
> 
> ...


Whoa now... at least Doug *had* a test mule. The closest we got to seeing Gonzo's testbed was the 20psi neutral spool video. 

Also, he clearly mentioned "And it did so on 93 octane pump -- with a long list of mods including water methanol injection.". That's not an edited-after-the-fact post, either. Seems like you're just jumping all over Doug here for no good reason in particular. We all have our days... but you ought to give this one up. Make more power, not sensationalist claims on internet forums. :beer:

(Side note: I'm considering getting myself into an upgraded K04 for my MS3... zoom zoom. Who wants to have a K04 showdown? )


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Be careful with those Toby.

My friends '12 kicked out a rod while he was trying to tune his new boost solenoid. Made ~300whp on a mustang though.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Dave926 said:


> Be careful with those Toby.
> 
> My friends '12 kicked out a rod while he was trying to tune his new boost solenoid. Made ~300whp on a mustang though.


Yah - ringlands can be a problem if your car's cooling ain't up to snuff and the rods lie in wait for you to smash the throttle with too much boost down low. Good ol' small frame K04. :laugh:


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

I will have dyno's hopefully by the end of next month on a 2.0 stroker with rods, intake, s4 tb and cams running E85. I gotta get through this weekend racing at NOPI Nationals first, then its off to the shop a little afterwards for some professional tuning.


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## hondss (Mar 23, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


>





DMVDUB said:


> That's cool...
> 
> Why don't you list the REST of the modifications that it took to make that power :facepalm:
> 
> ...





warranty225cpe said:


> Maybe by "uncorrected" he means an inaccurate list of mods.. (?) :wave:
> 
> And Steve, what if you switched files and could fill up with E85.. Would you?





[email protected] said:


> Very true but the OP didn't state what mods your car had.





groggory said:


> Let's keep it positive people. A little competition is good for everyone. No need to make it negative.


As a moderator, I'm sure you can do a better job with filtering the meaningless posts that take away from the real content of this forum. 


im·ma·ture 
Adjective
Not fully developed: "immature fruit".
(of a person or their behavior)* Having emotional or intellectual development appropriate to someone younger.*


You guys need to grow up. Why are you so emotionally reactive towards Doug's product? Emotion and logic don't do well. 

why did you not ask for the mod list instead of crying like you did? Man that one post was completely off about the mod list. Kind of like how accurate the rest of your groups posts are. You guys keep doing what you're doing - deflating how serious you are taken on here.


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## hondss (Mar 23, 2012)

DMVDUB said:


> My point in my first post is what someone else mentioned. You make videos showing someone making 350whp and people will buy a kit, slap it on their car, dyno it making ~250-270whp and be pissed.
> 
> I've seen it so many times it's ridiculous. A company says 400hp capable and the consumer assumes that they buy whatever it is and they instantly have 400hp. They totally miss the CAPABLE part.
> 
> ...


I laugh at what you post. Who blindly goes and buys something without asking the question of how much power can this produce......you are such a laugh. 

You make it to be this thread is a conspiracy. Hahahaha. Keep posting. I love it.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

hondss said:


> As a moderator, I'm sure you can do a better job with filtering the meaningless posts that take away from the real content of this forum.
> 
> 
> im·ma·ture
> ...


This thread hasn't derailed. It's kissed the rail and thrown some gravel up, but I think it's generally pointed in the right direction


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## hondss (Mar 23, 2012)

groggory said:


> This thread hasn't derailed. It's kissed the rail and thrown some gravel up, but I think it's generally pointed in the right direction


I agree. But to go through this cycle with gonzo tuning attacking frankenturbo is taking away from the quality of the threads. 

Something should be done as a moderator. Can we keep the threads simple and not complicate them with banter and jealousy? It's becoming expected for whenever a new frankenturbo or maestro thread pops up, these individuals take there stance. Why can specific individuals rant about competitors threads just to de-value the product?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I have no bias towards either company. I could careless about who's hybrid is better. 

However when Doug locks his threads after posting information it looks rather shady. If its an issue of those who post, then he needs to take the correct actions and bring it to the attention of the Moderator, or if he really wants to make it a big **** an Admin. Techinical discussions are just that, not post some data and say '**** You'. I know Groggory got at least one disgruntled PM from a user (me) about this.

That who actuator thing, well it was :bs:. Another story, another day.

If thats what he wants to do, post a blog somewhere where no one gives a ****.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

This is a forum where people can freely discuss. Manners, courtesy, proper citation, etc is not a forum rule.. But it is appreciated.

My job as a mod isn't to edit posts constantly.


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## steve-o 16v GLI (Jun 26, 2005)

hondss said:


> I agree. But to go through this cycle with gonzo tuning attacking frankenturbo is taking away from the quality of the threads.
> 
> Something should be done as a moderator. Can we keep the threads simple and not complicate them with banter and jealousy? It's becoming expected for whenever a new frankenturbo or maestro thread pops up, these individuals take there stance. Why can specific individuals rant about competitors threads just to de-value the product?


Dude if you can't handle ppl having tech discussions and voicing their opinion than you don't belong here. Not trying to be mean but it's true. Not everyone is gona get along or even agree to disagree. It's life. No one started any gonzo vs FT bs. Comparisons are being made but it isn't aimed at discrediting one or the other. 

I think everyone seems to be playing nice in this thread. If anything you are derailing it. We don't need you trying to school us on vocab!


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

To be honest, I dont recall FT ever saying you bolt on a turbo and you get 350hp... Its pretty much well known you need lots extra toys to maximize turbos. If someone purchasing the kit sees its "cabability" as what it will do out of the box then thats on them. 

Take my gtx2867 for example. its *capable* of over 400hp, as advertised by Garrett. But I wont get there till I have upgraded; Intake mani, w/m, fuel pump, 25+ psi, cams, rods, maybe an AEB or even stroking it for more torque. At no point was I like, "hay, this says 400hp, thats what Ill get!" thats just not realisitic when modding cars.

Last thing I want to do is be dragged into shinanigans but seriously... It would be nice to see a Hybrid Turbo thread without the usual crew just throwing poop (you know who you are).


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

hondss said:


> As a moderator, I'm sure you can do a better job with filtering the meaningless posts that take away from the real content of this forum.
> 
> 
> im·ma·ture
> ...


1. I believe you are either Doug or one of Dougs minions being used incase the mods don't lock a thread where discussion starts, instead of FT blind praise.

2. My mods list IS off. It should be about $2000 higher at least. That's because the average buyer won't be doing any of the work themselves. I also left out mounts, clutch, FW, and other parts that will come into play. The mod list would be closer to the $5,000 range. I WAS being generous.

3. I have no emotion. I have no emotion in my real life. That's why I can do my job so well. Well, I do have one emotion, someone like you will never push me that far though. 

Toby,

GTT did/does have test rigs. More than one. My car being one of them.

Roger, 
I'm not discrediting the capabilities. I just think that *whoever* the seller is should give more than just "the car has some mods" and made 350whp or whatever. Trust me when I say, people WILL see a post like this and say, I've got a CAI and TB exhaust, and a FMIC.. Why did I only make 280whp? It's commonplace. Without specifics people will try and add up their mods in comparison thinking that they actually "compare"


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

DMVDUB said:


> Rodger, (edited for ya)
> 
> I'm not discrediting the capabilities. I just think that *whoever* the seller is should give more than just "the car has some mods" and made 350whp or whatever. Trust me when I say, people WILL see a post like this and say, I've got a CAI and TB exhaust, and a FMIC.. Why did I only make 280whp? It's commonplace. Without specifics people will try and add up their mods in comparison thinking that they actually "compare"


The main thing I see is that there can be a disconnect in the understanding of people new to this stuff and vendors offering products. Its the job of the vendors to aid in understanding but I see that people set unreasonably high expectations for themselves while having little understanding of the Mechanics, Followed by unsatisfaction (Cough...Maestro ..Cough cough:laugh 

What should be learned is that every prospective buyer, for ANYTHING, should have a complete understanding of what they are buying and whats involved.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

hondss said:


> I agree. But to go through this cycle with gonzo tuning attacking frankenturbo is taking away from the quality of the threads.
> 
> Something should be done as a moderator. Can we keep the threads simple and not complicate them with banter and jealousy? It's becoming expected for whenever a new frankenturbo or maestro thread pops up, these individuals take there stance. Why can specific individuals rant about competitors threads just to de-value the product?


Re-read Doug's original post in this thread. He wasted little other than the first sentence before going on an all out rant about his competitors product and marketing practices. If Doug was truly interested in providing professional and technical information to this forum, he would post his graphs, explain the difference between uncorrected, SAE and STD correction factors or whatever, and then let the community discuss. Nobody cares about Doug's opinions about Gonzo, just as no one cares about Gonzos opinions of Doug. We want information where personal bias doesn't come into play. Both companies have a great product line, and have pushed the limits of performance and value beyond what most would have perceived as possible a few short years ago. I have Gonzo's products on my GTI, but I'm considering picking up a FT kit for my R56 Cooper S. Its just a shame that these low level attacks won't cease, all it is doing is cheapening both brands and inspiring the angry villagers to be angrier.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Have fun with this, I'm gonna do a thread cleanup later today.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> Have fun with this, I'm gonna do a thread cleanup later today.


Not necessary and I really like your analogy about derailment:laugh:


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## Jerm23MK4 (Sep 20, 2012)

This is great opcorn:


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## crazybohunk (May 24, 2011)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> The main thing I see is that there can be a disconnect in the understanding of people new to this stuff and vendors offering products. Its the job of the vendors to aid in understanding but I see that people set unreasonably high expectations for themselves while having little understanding of the Mechanics, Followed by unsatisfaction (Cough...Maestro ..Cough cough:laugh
> 
> What should be learned is that every prospective buyer, for ANYTHING, should have a complete understanding of what they are buying and whats involved.



^This.

Getting a new hybrid turbo was the start of an education with a high learning curve::banghead:


I keep hearing about minions. where can I get minions from that can help me with this stuff?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

4ceFed4 said:


> If Doug was truly interested in providing professional and technical information to this forum, he would post his graphs, explain the difference between uncorrected, SAE and STD correction factors or whatever, and then let the community discuss.


I should probably do a better job of posting links to the 50-odd page F23 turbo technical thread, which after a year and a half of posts, was accidentally deleted by a forum moderator last year. Luckily, the thread still exists in a limbo-like state here:

http://www.vwvortex.com/FrankenTT/page1.htm

If anyone would be interested in a more condensed picture of the research we performed with the turbo, I can be reached by email or PM.

Thx


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Is W/M really necessary to see anything above 300whp?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

woodywoods86 said:


> Is W/M really necessary to see anything above 300whp?


Yes, unless you convert to E85


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Yeah that's what I figured . I guess I will see what I can get without it first and go from there.

As for the E85, not even on my radar, but the gains are legit.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

woodywoods86 said:


> Yeah that's what I figured . I guess I will see what I can get without it first and go from there.
> 
> As for the E85, not even on my radar, but the gains are legit.


It would have to be in that order. A regular tune is needed to get you dialed in before E85.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Everybody needs to calm down. This whole Frankenturbo Vs Gonzo thing has gotten out of hand. It reminds me of the old Unitronic Vs Eurodyne threads :laugh:

Doug just LOVES to stoke the flames though. I guess any publicity is good publicity amirite? 

Hey Doug, ever get your wastegate preload figured out buddy!? :wave:


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