# Dear, VW. Please stop using frameless windows.



## Fudgey Memory (Oct 26, 2011)

Google it. Lots of manufacturers are having some trouble with these windows. 

Framed windows tend to stay in, rather than pop out, during a crash. Framed windows help keep passengers safe in the car, rather than hanging out of the side. The frames also make the car able to stand a 3-5mph faster crash without buckling, than the frameless type. 

2012 Beetle frameless windows were getting stuck open, closed, or halfway between. They went down by themselves in the middle of the night. They managed to correct that, but they still acted up. Noises, and sticking.

So why do they do it? The reason that VW has chosen to make your car more problematic, and less safe is because they only want to make one kind of window. It's cheaper that way.

Also, No pinch sensors. Make windows that have an auto setting for down only, not up. Yes, you have to hold the little button for 5 seconds. To keep kids from crushing their own skulls by stepping the buttons, while trying to climb out the windows, you put the controls on the central dash, instead of the door. Kids can't have head in door, and finger on the button, at the same time.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

While I can agree that Windowless door frames can be creaky, freeze up in the winter, and just make noise they aren't the only manufacture, my dad's Challenger is creaky like the beetle because of those windowless door frames.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

Honestly the Beetle I haven't had any issues with the windows other then the creaking and freeIng up. I know the earlier beetles had weird window up and down issues. I can totally understand your being frustrated. 

I'd just keep bringing it in until they fixed it, multiple dealerships because the one your going to isn't fixing it obviously.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

While I don't have a Beetle, or a car with frameless windows, just a couple of thoughts:
1. My windows have frozen up on my framed window car. Granted I park outside 100% of the time and the temp can go down to below zero here. 
2. Are you sure your dealer is a competent one? I stopped having work done at the dealer closest to me because they never seemed to fix the car right.
3. Many many cars have frameless doors; all convertibles do, many Subarus do, the VW CC has them, and they work fine there. Which makes me go back to #2; you're dealership is not properly fixing your car.

I'm truly sorry that you are this frustrated with the car. But I'd urge you to take it to another dealer. Go to the regional forums and ask which ones are good in your area. I just keep going back to #2 because there are now so few complaints about the windows here. Once VW figured out a fix, and the cars were repaired in 2012, the complaints about windows just about disappeared.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

Fudgey Memory said:


> Yes, A framed window can freeze up, or down. Usually not in between, though. Frameless windows have many issues, that framed windows do not.
> 
> No, I am not sure that my dealer is competent anymore. Not after all of these many tries.


Really? Think about what you're saying. Cold temps don't care if your window is up, down, framed or frameless. The reason they freeze is that any moisture freezes sticking the glass to the rubber seals. Seals BTW that both framed and frameless windows have. They are there to keep the weather out. By your claim, frameless windows are WORSE at it than framed windows (which is false, BTW for the reason I just explained.) You even openly admitted that framed windows will freeze too. 

So it's NOT a design problem with frameless windows. It's a matter of the weather. Learn to control that and your "problem" will be solved. Better yet, have you tried fixing the issue yourself? A little silicone spray on the seals helps a lot if you live somewhere where it gets cold. Move to Michigan or Wisconsin or North Dakota and you'll learn these things. Another option is to put it in the garage (if you have one). Maybe your dealer isn't the incompetent one here. 

And just for your edification, the reason VW windows drop a little when you open the doors is to pull the glass OUT of the seal. If you've ever noticed, when you close the door they go back up into the seal. They do this to help get a good seal around the window so you have a quieter, drier and windless ride. I'll agree that framed windows don't do this. They don't need to. The very frame you prize so much is part of the structure. You have a lot more rigidity to work with. But if you look at them, they also have seals for the same reason. Do you want to talk about framed windows freezing the doors closed?

Tech in cars? Get used to it. You will only see more and more tech put into cars to try and make them safer, more fuel efficient and more convenient. Did you complain when seat belts were added? That was an advancement for safety. Get with the times. This isn't 1965 anymore.


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

I agree with you that most of the possible issues they can have but at the end of the day i love my beetle and CC. While its an annoyance I'm sure there are many features in every car thats made today will annoy you and every other human in this world. I Guess thats why we have a choice in what car best suits you. So far I'm happy with every other aspect of my VW's and try and look at the positive. Don't be worried about going to another dealership, just keep bringing it in until your happy


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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

Just playing devil's advocate, but there are some "benefits" (however minor they might be) to frameless windows:

They are lighter. With manufacturers looking for ways to improve efficiency, less weight is a good thing.
For the convertible Beetles, framed windows would look horrific. I wouldn't expect many manufacturers to have a framed window door for coupes and a frameless window for convertibles (Jeep Wrangler being an exception that I can think of) Yes it's a styling issue, but worthy of noting.
Ingress and egress are somewhat improved with a frameless window. Especially when the windows are lowered.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

I love my frameless windows! Part of the reason I bought the car actually. And I'm sorry, but I don't buy it being less safe, the window frame is so flimsy on doors it doesn't provide any rigidity. Anyway, continue the hatorade


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## Dan00Hawk (Jun 22, 2013)

The Subaru SVX should satisfy the frame and frameless concerns for everyone!


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

This is my 3rd VW Beetle and my previous one, a 2006 New Beetle has frames around the windows, but with the pinch-protection, I experienced the upsy-downsy issue. It is a tension thing and not limited to whether there is a frame around it or not.


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## Fudgey Memory (Oct 26, 2011)

That is a double nightmare scenario. I was having trouble thinking of a way that they could make it worse. But that ought to do it.




Dan00Hawk said:


> The Subaru SVX should satisfy the frame and frameless concerns for everyone!


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Fudgey Memory said:


> The upsy downsy thing is the pinch sensors. Useless things. Why make a window that "knows" your in the way, when you can make a window that you can never get in the way of? And it's much simpler to do. See above.


Children have been killed by power windows. It's rare, but it happens. That's why manufacturers no longer put 'rocker style' switches on door panels; small kids would step on them while hanging out the window and if more pressure was put on the up side, the window would raise and choke them. That's why all new windows have the 'push down to lower/pull the button up to close" type of switch. If a kid steps on it, it'll only go down, not up. 

There's a number of other reasons pinch protection is a good feature; my 1998 New Beetle had it. Once my niece was reaching out the window to high-five her mom as we were pulling away. She was behind me and I had no idea her hand was out the window; the pinch protection stopped the window from raising and hurting her. 

While I'm not sure the exact reason they made the windows frameless, I'm fairly certain the main reason was because there was also going to be a convertible model. One door design for all cars is less expensive to produce and engineer. 

I'd implore you to find another dealership to have the windows checked. The 2003 New Beetle convertible my parents used to have had a recurring issue with the windows not dropping when you opened the door. They took it back to their dealership 4 times and they couldn't fix. My dad got sick of it and took it to a dealership further away from them and they not only fixed it, they actually fixed it on the spot while my dad waited. He didn't even have an appointment; he just saw the dealership, pulled in, and asked if they had a minute or two to look at it. He never took the car back to the original dealership. 

Also, if it really has been 7 repairs and they're still not working, perhaps research lemon laws for your state.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

I had a problem with the window motors when I first bought mine but that really doesn't have anything to do with weather or not the windows have any frames on them or not. Other than that, no problems to speak of. 

One thing I will say though, is that I HATE taking my car to the dealer. Allot of the times they just plain don't know whats causing your problem but they wont tell you that because they are supposed to know and that's why they charge you $100 an hour for labor plus parts and something they call a shop fee (honestly where else were THEY supposed to do THEIR work). They might have and idea and they'll replace whatever they think might be causing your problem, but if they are wrong they'll let you drive out of there and then tell you to bring it back in when you find out the the problem is still there. Like it's no big deal that you have to take time off of your day so they can keep guessing.

Anyway, the best thing that has happened to me is finding a mechanic that knows VW inside and out and is honest about the problems I have and what needs to be done to fix them. 

And yes, I know it isn't all dealers, so if you work in one that does a good job or take your car to one that has done things right for you then that's great. I'm just talking about my experiences and why I don't deal with it anymore


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## BenandAmanda (Dec 4, 2013)

I like my windows.


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## oidoglr (Jan 26, 2009)

I drove my '13 Beetle all through winter here in MN, and I'm the first to run my car through a touchless wash after the snow falls and the roads are plowed, which is incidentally usually when it's the coldest here in MN. (Alberta clipper) 0 degrees F, or lower. The windows only froze one time, shortly after it was purchased in November. Mine are also not noisy.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

Fudgey Memory said:


> I wish people would actually read my post before commenting. I never suggested simply eliminating pinch sensors. I came up with a less techy alternative, but you'll actually have to read my posts to find it.
> 
> I am still considering visiting another dealer.


Here's a thought. How about reading YOUR OWN posts before continuing this rant? 

Here's what YOU said in post #4:

"And speaking of teching up windows? Pinch sensors? WTF? I won't go into why you shouldn't leave kinds in a car alone, at all. Or why leaving the keys in the car so that they can open & close the windows, is even worse. Here's the solution: No pinch sensors."

So on one hand you say you "never suggested simply eliminating pinch sensors", if you read what you said, yes indeed, you did. Or am I now not reading what you said correctly?

So how about getting YOUR facts straight before you continue disparaging others?


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## Fudgey Memory (Oct 26, 2011)

I said remove them, and replace them with a simpler system. 

Windows with an auto-down setting, but not auto-up. Controls on the dash, and not the door. Keeps kids from getting their melons caught, and untechs a needlessly tech up system.

Also, don't leave your kids in the car alone, especially with the keys in the ignition. You wouldn't think you'd have to say it, but that's why we have pinch sensors. Same people that cause them to have to put "Do not eat" on those moisture pellet packets that come with stereos.


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## TypeSH (Jul 11, 2013)

I like the frameless windows, it's one of the reasons I wanted the Beetle Turbo over the GTI. I haven't had any issues whatsoever. I also live in SoCal, so I haven't dealt with freezing temperatures, so there's that.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

So I'm a troll because I "add nothing to the conversation". Why do you say so? Just because I pointed out the fallacy in your thinking? Nor did I revert to name calling. I'll admit I'm fairly new to THIS forum (I was a mod on a past one for many years), but I just bought my Beetle in April and didn't even know about this forum until recently. So yeah, I'm new here, but not to forums. That hardly makes me a troll...

But back to the topic. If you are so against frameless windows, why did you buy a Beetle to start with? It's not like the windows had frames when you bought it and they fell off after you got it home. Point is, the windows were frameless when you bought it. 

And as far as problems with electric windows, if VW has had so many issues with them, again, why did you buy them? Surely with all the evidence you claim is out there you surely would have done your due diligence before your purchase. So you would have known about the "problems" you claim are there. If you didn't, why are you now here ranting about these "problems" the rest of us are not having on a widespread nature? 

Finally, if you would have read my post, you would also know that I did indeed add something to the conversation. I'll repeat myself here in more detail because you obviously missed it.

If you happen to live somewhere cold enough to get frozen windows, try using some spray silicone on the seals. It makes the seals less sticky (smoother? slicker?), so moisture, when it freezes, is much less likely to stick and freeze the door closed. I used to do this about twice a year on my Nissan Xterra due to the known issues with the regulators. After 11 years, I never had a regulator fail. So spray silicone does indeed help. 

By the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, I too like my windows. Despite the "problems".

opcorn:


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## Gommers (Nov 1, 2013)

Fudgey Memory said:


> One more time, for the hard of reading.
> 
> Remove pinch sensors. Remove door switches. This is usually where some folks stop reading. But wait, there's more.
> 
> ...


How's your kid going to learn if you don't let them catch their head in the window? Remove the bubble wrap, they're not previous cargo.


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## Fudgey Memory (Oct 26, 2011)

They replaced the regulator in my passenger side window for the 3rd time. And there was a TSB pertaining to some bolts in the windows being too small, or something.

Now, they are working pretty well. We'll see for how long. It's been two months. So far, so good.


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## oidoglr (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm on my second frameless window VW (had a 2013 Beetle R-line and now '09 CC 4motion) and honestly, I only had an issue the first heavy freeze of the winter I had with my Beetle when it was brand new. The dealer did a slight adjustment, and was solid no problems there after, and MN winters go sub zero all of the time, and I run my cars through touchless washes at 0F all the time.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

Dan00Hawk said:


> The Subaru SVX should satisfy the frame and frameless concerns for everyone!


... One of the ugliest window solutions E-VER!


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

I just want VW to one day make a car that you can crack the window on without water pouring in when it's raining! I've owned countless VW's and other cars, and VW always has this issue, but most other cars don't.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

drtechy...

http://www.carid.com/volkswagen-beetle-deflectors/


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

GZB said:


> drtechy...
> 
> http://www.carid.com/volkswagen-beetle-deflectors/


Believe me, if they didn't kill the look of the car I would, maybe once my color change is complete, it might fit better


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

Scratch that. I'm not finding any for newer years anyway.

And that was a joke to begin with. I never thought you'd actually do it anyway...


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

GZB said:


> Scratch that. I'm not finding any for newer years anyway.
> 
> And that was a joke to begin with. I never thought you'd actually do it anyway...


lol, of course now that they don't have them I'm thinking about it with the color change, always want what you can't have lol


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

www.brandsport.com/drip-rail-molding.html

Have had this product on my TB for three years and it holds up well, is easy to install, and does help to
catch water before it streams into my car with the window 'cracked' open. Since my car is black, it isn't
really noticeable but I don't see it would detract from the look of cars with different colors than black.
The larger (7/8") size is adept at catching rain water but I can't comment on the 5/8" size.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

ridgemanron said:


> www.brandsport.com/drip-rail-molding.html
> 
> Have had this product on my TB for three years and it holds up well, is easy to install, and does help to
> catch water before it streams into my car with the window 'cracked' open. Since my car is black, it isn't
> ...


Do you have a picture of it installed? Or can you take one? Be really interested to see it.


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## GZB (Jul 14, 2014)

X2. Pic?


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Maybe someone can pull out from the archives, pictures I posted under the heading 
'Ridgeman's Big Wing'. You can then see a side shot view of the car. I don't know how to
locate the photo easily but I'm sure more adept enthusiasts on the site can.

I was able to locate and transfer from the archives my - Ridgeman's Big Wing thread that 
has photos of the black molding.


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