# C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008



## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

We would like to OFFICIALLLY announce that H2O International will be the public release for C2 MK3 630cc software.
Come see us in the NGP booth the day of the show.


_Modified by C2Motorsports at 8:23 AM 10-24-2008_


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## [email protected] (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

And the flood gates open!


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## NoMoreHonduh (Apr 24, 2006)

500whp here I come...


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## Sosl0w (Aug 21, 2003)

*Re: (NoMoreHonduh)*











_Modified by Sosl0w at 12:08 PM 9-9-2008_


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

what is the driveability/performance/mileage/etc difference between the 42lb and 60lb setup? (for those of us who only run boost in the teens).


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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








looking forward to this once I get bored with 42lb


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (stealthmk1)*

Price? Also is this for the stage 1 or 2 MAF based system? Or both?


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

thank the lord!


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

What's included, pricing, power supported?


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

Does your previous C2 tune have some sort of trade in valve to go against the price of the 630cc EPROM? Thanks


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_Does your previous C2 tune have some sort of trade in valve to go against the price of the 630cc EPROM? Thanks

i believe the trade in valve is right next to the headlight fluid reservior.


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_Does your previous C2 tune have some sort of trade in valve to go against the price of the 630cc EPROM? Thanks


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
i believe the trade in valve is right next to the headlight fluid reservior.









That made me laugh








In answer to the original question, this software will be eligible under our standard Upgrade/Update Policy.
50% retail for existing C2 customers.

C2


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## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *C2Motorsports* »_
In answer to the original question, this software will be eligible under our standard Upgrade/Update Policy.
50% retail for existing C2 customers.

C2

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_what is the driveability/performance/mileage/etc difference between the 42lb and 60lb setup? (for those of us who only run boost in the teens).

The 630's tend to be a bit better at short pulse width than the Green tops.
This makes for smoother idle and light throttle driving.
Once the motor is making power say over 50-100lbft there is little difference.

The 630 software will be released in two versions.
1. uses 4" MAF housing (like current software)
This set-up is airflow limited by the MAF sensor limit, Roughly low 400's whp.
2. High performance MAF solution. This will allow you to run up to 
inj. max. Roughly mid 500's whp.

Version 1 will be done by H20.
Version 2 will be done for spring 2009.

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
The 630's tend to be a bit better at short pulse width than the Green tops.
This makes for smoother idle and light throttle driving.
Once the motor is making power say over 50-100lbft there is little difference.

The 630 software will be released in two versions.
1. uses 4" MAF housing (like current software)
This set-up is airflow limited by the MAF sensor limit, Roughly low 400's whp.
2. High performance MAF solution. This will allow you to run up to 
inj. max. Roughly mid 500's whp.

Version 1 will be done by H20.
Version 2 will be done for spring 2009.

-Jeffrey Atwood


looks like ill be building my next car for spring 09!
very nice work guys, cant wait!
Is the 50% off of people who bought directly from you with a chip exchange or who may have purchased via a 3rd party? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NeverEnding... (May 9, 2007)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

Will there be OBD1 versions available?


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
The 630's tend to be a bit better at short pulse width than the Green tops.
This makes for smoother idle and light throttle driving.
Once the motor is making power say over 50-100lbft there is little difference.

The 630 software will be released in two versions.
1. uses 4" MAF housing (like current software)
This set-up is airflow limited by the MAF sensor limit, Roughly low 400's whp.
2. High performance MAF solution. This will allow you to run up to 
inj. max. Roughly mid 500's whp.

Version 1 will be done by H20.
Version 2 will be done for spring 2009.

-Jeffrey Atwood

I will be awaiting version 2


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
I will be awaiting version 2









ME 2


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## UBER KUHL (May 16, 2005)

so, how is the stock bottom end 12v's going to do with low to mid 500whp? Looks like my build will be complete around mid 09.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (UBER KUHL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER KUHL* »_so, how is the stock bottom end 12v's going to do with low to mid 500whp? Looks like my build will be complete around mid 09.

Depends on the powerband, I suppose. With good flow up top (large AR, cams, etc), 500whp should only have ~420tq. Should be fine.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

This is going to be crazy and on top off that BOLT ON! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Wow, Ive been smiling the hole time reading this thread.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (UBER KUHL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER KUHL* »_so, how is the stock bottom end 12v's going to do with low to mid 500whp? 

Its not supposed to.









-Jeff


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2008)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dubman#1 (Feb 25, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (NeverEnding...)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeverEnding...* »_Will there be OBD1 versions available?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (dubman#1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubman#1* »_ Will there be OBD1 versions available? 

x2


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## [email protected] (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (dubman#1)*

As I understand it, the introduction of the stage 2 (new maf) software will open up the door more for the obd1 crowd. Just takes time http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:42 AM 9-11-2008_


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## raddo (Dec 22, 1999)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 ([email protected])*

Cant wait til spring time, I've been waiting for this http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to C2


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## corrado_sean2 (Nov 14, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (raddo)*

so does stage 2 get rid of the MAF? thatd be nice if it did. all 1.8t BT can get rid of them...why not vr's?


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## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (corrado_sean2)*

Oh noes! I forsee many a sheared gear stack with the nutty power levels that will be available to anyone now.








What kind of trans/driveline mods should go in conjunction with a ~500whp monster?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (corrado_sean2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corrado_sean2* »_so does stage 2 get rid of the MAF? thatd be nice if it did. all 1.8t BT can get rid of them...why not vr's?

because the 1.8T also have a MAP sensor.


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## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (C2Motorsports)*

SWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTtt... any details on the performance of the test cars? some in car vid would be sweet. I have had C2 in my car for over 20,000 miles and love your guys product. Makes FI for busy people like me a sinch.


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (bluegrape)*

Did this ever get release @ H20?


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## seL (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_Did this ever get release @ H20?

It's listed on their website, software is $499. The complete fueling kit is $999.


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (seL)*

Yeah but did anybody make a purchase and did they officially release @ H2O


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ As I understand it, the introduction of the stage 2 (new maf) software will open up the door more for the obd1 crowd. Just takes time http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by [email protected] at 10:42 AM 9-11-2008_

OBD1 Dizzy crowd? We are still stuck at 30#'s







I'm hoping this new MAF solution will help us out as that seems to be our biggest obstacle. Damn you one piece MAF!


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

Why not just step over to the darkside ( OBD-2 ) and done bro


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_Why not just step over to the darkside ( OBD-2 ) and done bro

When the time comes, that's a possibility.


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (seL)*

Does anybody know what the trade in value of the 42# software is?


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (BlownGinster)*

Well they said 50% so I guess $250 plus your older 42lb setup?


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_Well they said 50% so I guess $250 plus your older 42lb setup?

WOOT there it is








C2


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## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

Which injectors are recommended for the 630cc tune? Any specific brand was used when the software was developped?
Given that I know the 42# software was tuned using the green tops.
Chris I got from you the whole US ecu with the 42# tune. Do I also get the upgrade offer for the 630 tune?


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (VR6rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6rocks* »_Which injectors are recommended for the 630cc tune? Any specific brand was used when the software was developped?
Given that I know the 42# software was tuned using the green tops.
Chris I got from you the whole US ecu with the 42# tune. Do I also get the upgrade offer for the 630 tune?

Siemens Injectors
As an existing customer, you would be eligible for the upgrade offer.
chris
c2


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## WindsorJetta8v (Mar 13, 2001)

*Re: (C2Motorsports)*

what about the aba 630 chip?


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (WindsorJetta8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WindsorJetta8v* »_what about the aba 630 chip?









We do not own an ABA OBD2 car to develop.....otherwise we would http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## WindsorJetta8v (Mar 13, 2001)

*Re: (C2Motorsports)*

how bout mine?
im in ct and would love to be a test car, im currently running your obd2 #30 setup with a 50 trim t3/t4 
as long as i get something out of the deal im right near jeff in CT



















_Modified by WindsorJetta8v at 4:30 PM 9-30-2008_


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## pele (Oct 19, 2000)

c2: pm'ed you bout trading in software on this or 42# stuff


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (pele)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pele* »_c2: pm'ed you bout trading in software on this or 42# stuff

replied


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## Corporaljohnson (Feb 25, 2005)

So, who picked this up @ H2O?


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (Corporaljohnson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corporaljohnson* »_So, who picked this up @ H2O?


Shipped two yesterday


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

so any "official" release info on this? As in how much injector do we have before we are out of fuel or static the maf? Etc?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

more injector than the maf can read on the 630cc tune. The obdII maf goes static at a little over 400hp.


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

What happens after the MAF goes static? I see dynos of people making 450hp+ on the 440 injectors. I'm curious to what I'm putting down right now.


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## pele (Oct 19, 2000)

im'ed bout that trade in....


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## pele (Oct 19, 2000)

called the # you gave me and left a voicemail..let me know if i should go ahead and ship this to you?


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (pele)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pele* »_called the # you gave me and left a voicemail..let me know if i should go ahead and ship this to you?

Just heard Matt on the phone with you...so you my friend, are GETTING TAKEN CARE OF
C2


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## pele (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: (C2Motorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *C2Motorsports* »_
Just heard Matt on the phone with you...so you my friend, are GETTING TAKEN CARE OF
C2

you are the man. can you have him call/im/email me again.. another car needs some c2 love http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## pele (Oct 19, 2000)

oh ya tell him the package will be there tomorrow by noon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_What happens after the MAF goes static? I see dynos of people making 450hp+ on the 440 injectors. I'm curious to what I'm putting down right now.

X2


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (V.R.Lvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V.R.Lvr* »_
X2

It can no longer see an increase of air flow over what it presently sees and therefore cant add the fuel


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (KubotaPowered)*

I need this setup







Since its such a new tune, i asume the car will run perfect with it. Im not sure what 42# tune I have, but I bought it around march 2007 from Chris. Car runs like a dream
And in 2009 it will run even better http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*

So where does one get this high performance MAF?


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## Corporaljohnson (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: (marat_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *marat_g60* »_So where does one get this high performance MAF? 

It's in the second tier package.
Tier 1: Eprom and injectors
Tier 2 Tier 1 plus Maf
*Correct me if I am wrong*


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

i believe the flash/chip is different for the second package the tune will likely have to be different for the upgraded maf. Unless the find one that reads exactly the same as the bosch but just can handle more air.


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (marat_g60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *marat_g60* »_So where does one get this high performance MAF? 

It will be available as part of the Stage 4 630cc Package


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (C2Motorsports)*

Is anybody running this yet?? I might just wait for the stage 4 so I don't have to upgrade twice...........unless it's going to be a loooooooooooong wait.


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## Corporaljohnson (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_Is anybody running this yet?? I might just wait for the stage 4 so I don't have to upgrade twice...........unless it's going to be a loooooooooooong wait.

X2


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## lilnick (Feb 15, 2005)

*Re: (Corporaljohnson)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (lilnick)*

Hey if any one has ANY dyno graphs from the new tune please throw them up!!! I'll be gettting this tune over winter! 30psi here I come!!!


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

With a "Stage 4 " MAF will you be able to push 30 psi?
Where is the limit with "stock" MAF and the new one?
Any mk4 12V 630cc users around here?


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*

I talked to Chris at h2o. From what i understand that with the current mass air housing and 630 file about 450whp is what it should be around. However this also varies upon the setup, I know i have seen some people putting down 440-450whp on the current 440 file. As far as if you can run 30psi again it's all going to depend on what size turbo you are running and how much air it moves along with the rest of your setup. I'm going to guess it will be the same as now, turn it up until duty cycle is around 85% or so and there you so. When i talked to him then he said that Jeff was still developing the Stage 4 630 file. And as far as asking if there are any mk4 630 guys out there for comparison honestly won't give you an answer becuase they are still not using the full potential of the injectors due to the mass air and housing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_With a "Stage 4 " MAF will you be able to push 30 psi?
Where is the limit with "stock" MAF and the new one?
Any mk4 12V 630cc users around here?


1. likely support ~30psi. (this is set-up dependent) Turn it up until you run out of injector.
2. Stock maf in 4" housing limit is approx ~450whp.
New MAF will support 650whp
Realize: support = be able to measure 

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

 


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_

1. likely support ~30psi. (this is set-up dependent) Turn it up until you run out of injector.
2. Stock maf in 4" housing limit is approx ~450whp.
New MAF will support 650whp
Realize: support = be able to measure 

-Jeffrey Atwood


How about this for a NEW C2 630 Motto RE: 650whp:
We can support it....can you ?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
2. Stock maf in 4" housing limit is approx ~450whp.
New MAF will support 650whp
Realize: support = be able to measure 

-Jeffrey Atwood

When do you anticipate the new MAF being out for the Mk4 12V?
When do you anticipate the new MAF being out for the Mk3 12V OBD1?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V-dubbulyuh* »_
When do you anticipate the new MAF being out for the Mk4 12V?
When do you anticipate the new MAF being out for the Mk3 12V OBD1?

Mk4 12v: Not super critical, since the ME7 has wideband lambda control and will thus trim fuel to maintain proper afr, even if MAF is maxed.
Obd1 Vr6: No current plans to offer a 'chip' solution. 
We have a tuner solution lined up for Mk3 cars in the future, so the obd1 guys can develop this on their own.

-Jeffrey Atwood


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

OBD2 VR6 US I guess is the biggest marked right now.
The Euro OBD1 Marked is big. Scandinavia is happy with the C2 setup!


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

What would the tuner solutions involve?
Im a good while until I boost my car, but always good to know what the future holds for OBD1


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## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (pubahs)*

hey anyone feel like doing the math , when do 630cc inj. "max" out? I have heard of the mk4 guys makine low 500whps with them? can you get low 6XX"s. Sorry for all the questions I finally had some time to enjoy my VRT for the first time in several weeks and after spanking a brand new ISF I have a new intereset in the car.


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_hey anyone feel like doing the math , when do 630cc inj. "max" out?

Here's an example of a log I did with 630cc injectors a few years back:








Duty cycle on the 630cc injectors @ 3 bar w/ 24 psi:
57% @ 4800
62% @ 5480
69% @ 6320
70% @ 7080
A/F ratios look to go from 11.7-12.0. It should be able to support enough fuel for close to 30 psi but I haven't pushed it that far yet.
Has anyone made 500 whp on a C2 12v tune?


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## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*

The highest I have seen is 472whp out of some maxed out 440's . sinnesterh22 I think the guys tex name is.


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: (bluegrape)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bluegrape* »_The highest I have seen is 472whp out of some maxed out 440's . sinnesterh22 I think the guys tex name is.









Yeah. I'm pretty sure also if i remember correctly, he had the fuel pressure cranked up also. He wasnt running 3bar like you are supposed to.


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## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tekstepvr6* »_

Has anyone made 500 whp on a C2 12v tune?

464whp but it started leaning out at 6000rpm (approaching 13:1)
this was at 28psi

it was a slight mistake to have it that high but it was in the name of research that i was trying to find 25psi - stupid manual boost controllers


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (92g60gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *92g60gti* »_
Yeah. I'm pretty sure also if i remember correctly, he had the fuel pressure cranked up also. He wasnt running 3bar like you are supposed to.

Exactly, cabzilla made 473 I believe on his setup. I'll redyno soon and see where the new 440cc tune falls


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re:*

One problem with 630ccx6 = *3780cc *








What can a 044 pump flow at 3bar FPR + 2bar boost ?








200lph = *3300cc*

So if you have larger then *550cc *injectors you need a double pump and fuel pot.

The 630cc file will lean out at *87% duty*

Get dual pump setup and ad a 4bar to the 630cc







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*

Foffa - Can you do that same iteration of calculation for a Walbro?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Re: (pOrKcHoP bOy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pOrKcHoP bOy* »_Foffa - Can you do that same iteration of calculation for a Walbro? 

The normal walbro-Unit will flow *[email protected] *= 3015cc = 500cc injectors or leaning out at ~*78% duty cycle*
But wit large pump you get another problem.
The OEM race bosch FPR A.K.A larger fuel return hole FPR can only return ~220litre/hour according to bosch (its acctually a little more)
OEM FPR cant even return close to this.
Return hole is like 1.5mm compared to 4mm diamter
So i cant go under 4.5bar FPR with my twin 044 setup with even larger injectors.
But on the other hand i need the fuel.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de...8.pdf

btw all the USRT oem style FPR´s got the large return hole http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dapucker1 (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
OBD1 Dizzy *AND COILPACK* crowd? We are still stuck at 30#'s







I'm hoping this new MAF solution will help us out as that seems to be our biggest obstacle. Damn you one piece MAF! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/mad.gif" BORDER="0"> 
 
i hear ya steve... c2 gods, please send love our way


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (dapucker1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dapucker1* »_ 
i hear ya steve... c2 gods, please send love our way









IM sent


----------



## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
I will be awaiting version 2









Oh noes! That would free up a 42# setup for one of the other VRTs running around here.


----------



## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The normal walbro-Unit will flow *[email protected] *= 3015cc = 500cc injectors or leaning out at ~*78% duty cycle*
But wit large pump you get another problem.
The OEM race bosch FPR A.K.A larger fuel return hole FPR can only return ~220litre/hour according to bosch (its acctually a little more)
OEM FPR cant even return close to this.
Return hole is like 1.5mm compared to 4mm diamter
So i cant go under 4.5bar FPR with my twin 044 setup with even larger injectors.
But on the other hand i need the fuel.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de...8.pdf

btw all the USRT oem style FPR´s got the large return hole http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

time to switch to an aeromotive


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Re: (Juiced6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Juiced6* »_
time to switch to an aeromotive










Aeromotive is the worst pump you can buy for 5bar








Its basicly dead at those pressures.
Deliver a ton of fuel ~2-3bar but a turbo car running at 5-6bar fuel pressure when boost kisck in its acctually of the scale for aeromotive pump flow sheet


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*

Foffa,
I agree with your datasheet information.
BUT, when you use these pumps in-line the you need
to figure the pressure at the pump inlet.
i.e. IF the the inlet is even at 1 bar the pressure the in-line pump
needs to make goes down by the same. You've seen these pump curves,
ANY decrease in the differential the pump has to make will increase flow greatly.
-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (dapucker1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dapucker1* »_ 
i hear ya steve... c2 gods, please send love our way










Something is in the works for all the 'old' cars.








Chat offline if you require more info.
-Jeff


----------



## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Aeromotive is the worst pump you can buy for 5bar








Its basicly dead at those pressures.
Deliver a ton of fuel ~2-3bar but a turbo car running at 5-6bar fuel pressure when boost kisck in its acctually of the scale for aeromotive pump flow sheet









funny over the weekend i just watched a 2300hp twin turbo chevy nova click off early and still went 7.23 in the 1/4 using an aeromotive fuel system


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Aeromotive is the worst pump you can buy for 5bar








Its basicly dead at those pressures.
Deliver a ton of fuel ~2-3bar but a turbo car running at 5-6bar fuel pressure when boost kisck in its acctually of the scale for aeromotive pump flow sheet









The Aeromotive A1000 still flows over 620lb/hr at 5bar, the Eliminator flows over 800lb/hr and the Pro Series does 1000+


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_

Something is in the works for all the 'old' cars.








Chat offline if you require more info.
-Jeff

Interested to see what develops, but I think you already knew that


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Foffa,
I agree with your datasheet information.
BUT, when you use these pumps in-line the you need
to figure the pressure at the pump inlet.
i.e. IF the the inlet is even at 1 bar the pressure the in-line pump
needs to make goes down by the same. You've seen these pump curves,
ANY decrease in the differential the pump has to make will increase flow greatly.
-Jeffrey Atwood


Largest proiblem is that OEM cant even deliver 3400cc at 0bar









so its possible to starve the 044 and defenetly the aeromotive at low pressures


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Re: (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_
The Aeromotive A1000 still flows over 620lb/hr at 5bar, the Eliminator flows over 800lb/hr and the Pro Series does 1000+


They claim that at 13.5volt.
And no one have ever managed to get that flow out of them at 5bar.
Its basicly flowing ~400-500lb over 5bar = max 3800cc in best case scenario.

We tested all three pumps in 2 different flow test before we figured out why Kai blew his Audi and why AVR had problems with keeping the flow at high pressures.
The aeromotive i crap for anything else then a N/A engine with 2-3bar fpr.
044x2 is the way to go.
A pump that deliver more then spec and can hold 3300cc at 7bar


----------



## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

They claim that at 13.5volt.
And no one have ever managed to get that flow out of them at 5bar.
Its basicly flowing ~400-500lb over 5bar = max 3800cc in best case scenario.

We tested all three pumps in 2 different flow test before we figured out why Kai blew his Audi and why AVR had problems with keeping the flow at high pressures.
The aeromotive i crap for anything else then a N/A engine with 2-3bar fpr.
044x2 is the way to go.
A pump that deliver more then spec and can hold 3300cc at 7bar

thats interesting because when i talk to these FI muscle car guys they all have nothing bad to say about aeromotive


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

They claim that at 13.5volt.
And no one have ever managed to get that flow out of them at 5bar.
Its basicly flowing ~400-500lb over 5bar = max 3800cc in best case scenario.

We tested all three pumps in 2 different flow test before we figured out why Kai blew his Audi and why AVR had problems with keeping the flow at high pressures.
The aeromotive i crap for anything else then a N/A engine with 2-3bar fpr.
044x2 is the way to go.
A pump that deliver more then spec and can hold 3300cc at 7bar

Interesting information. I don't like Aeromotive products(I had a A1000 pump fail within the first ~50km), but there are a few turbo hondas making 700+whp on them. I'm running an 044 pump now and no problems @ ~82psi FP in boost.
Have u looked into Weldon pumps? I've heard some good things about them in high fuel pressure/high hp
http://www.weldonracing.com/vi...art=0


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Re: (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_
Interesting information. I don't like Aeromotive products(I had a A1000 pump fail within the first ~50km), but there are a few turbo hondas making 700+whp on them. I'm running an 044 pump now and no problems @ ~82psi FP in boost.
Have u looked into Weldon pumps? I've heard some good things about them in high fuel pressure/high hp
http://www.weldonracing.com/vi...art=0

BMW M3-T guys here in sweden run weldon and aeromotive but always seem top step back to Bosch.
Might be that they are tried n true when it comes to A1000 vs dual 044.
But i have not heard anything bad about weldon´s stuff


----------



## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_

1. likely support ~30psi. (this is set-up dependent) Turn it up until you run out of injector.
2. Stock maf in 4" housing limit is approx ~450whp.
New MAF will support 650whp
Realize: support = be able to measure 

-Jeffrey Atwood

Is this were a MAF voltage clamp comes into play?


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_
Is this were a MAF voltage clamp comes into play?

NO maf clamp.
I have a new MAF sensor.
-Jeff


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

people blow their areomotive puimps because they don't run the proper filters pre and post and run the pump higher than the lowest part of the tank
i run 2 cheapy MSD pumps (about 320lph total) with no problems trapping 127+ and they cost alot less than the 044
BTW nice to see these 630 files out, people nowadays don't realize how lucky they are to have these choices, 10 years ago when i 1st turbo'ed my vr6 there was only EIP in their early stages and we all know how great they are/where



_Modified by .therealvrt at 6:39 PM 11-12-2008_


----------



## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: (.therealvrt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.therealvrt* »_people blow their areomotive puimps because they don't run the proper filters pre and post and run the pump higher than the lowest part of the tank
i run 2 cheapy MSD pumps (about 320lph total) with no problems trapping 127+ and they cost alot less than the 044
BTW nice to see these 630 files out, people nowadays don't realize how lucky they are to have these choices, 10 years ago when i 1st turbo'ed my vr6 there was only EIP in their early stages and we all know how great they are/where

_Modified by .therealvrt at 6:39 PM 11-12-2008_

my first turbo'd VW had the eip special fueling system - the way my C2 drives today is leaps and bounds better than that crap
hell mine drives like VW built it like this from the factory - not bad for 400whp daily driver
now after saying that - http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for jefnes and c2 tuning software 
i will be waiting on that stage 4 - i want 600whp


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (Juiced6)*

that makes two of us. I have less and less time to drive the damn car so mine as well go balls out with it when I do have the time.Hey all you t3/t4 .82 guys when are you maxing the inj's with the 440 tune? I have run 19-20psi and just curious.


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (BlownGinster)*

Why is there all of this talk about low 400hp limit with the 4" MAF? many cars have made 450-475 with the current off-the-shelf 42lb/4"maf fuel kit. I even made 501hp with that fuel kit just by turning up the fuel pressure a tiny bit.
That all said, I can't wait until spring. I hope to be the first one to make 600hp on a c2 chip tune


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_many cars have made 450-475 with the current off-the-shelf 42lb/4"maf fuel kit. I even made 501hp with that fuel kit just by turning up the fuel pressure a tiny bit.


450-475 is maxing out the 4" MAF so thats about right. Did you make 501 *WHP* on the 4"?


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
450-475 is maxing out the 4" MAF so thats about right. Did you make 501 *WHP* on the 4"?

last dyno chart showed 485 I believe on a dynapac.


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
450-475 is maxing out the 4" MAF so thats about right. Did you make 501 *WHP* on the 4"?

i made 501 crank hp with the 4"


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
i made 501 crank hp with the 4"

BHP works for aircraft, generators, pumps and locomotives, lets see some WHP numbers. I'd be willing to bet that its somewhere around ~450whp


----------



## rycou34 (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (KubotaPowered)*

anyone else running this software on a MK III?
Very interested in how it runs/feels. 
Let the world know your input


----------



## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
BHP works for aircraft, generators, pumps and locomotives, lets see some WHP numbers. I'd be willing to bet that its somewhere around ~450whp

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
450+ whp according to the dyno chart.


----------



## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (vr6swap)*

i hit 464 but it started leaning out over 6000rpm 
im sure if i turned down the boost a bit it would of hit 450whp at redline


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (vr6swap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6swap* »_
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
450+ whp according to the dyno chart. 


What he didn't mention is that 501 was made on an aborted run. I was the one with the car as it was dynoed.


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (cabzilla)*

Did you have a spike or creep or something?


----------



## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_

What he didn't mention is that 501 was made on an aborted run. I was the one with the car as it was dynoed. 

Seems like that *was* in the thread, before Hamster had to come in and clean house. 180hp what.


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Did you have a spike or creep or something?

no, Cabzilla turned the boost up to 20psi for the last pull, and it started to misfire at 5700 rpm with the spark plugs i had in there. Before they shut the dyno down, it showed 501 on the screen. had they completed the pull, im sure we would have seen over 520hp.
Anyways, let get back to waiting for the stage 4 fuel kit


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (xpalendocious)*

dynapac numbers can be grossly off just like other dynos.
im not saying your car doesnt make serious power. im just thinking that 501 wheel at only 20psi is a stretch. possible i guess, but not likely.
i saw your thread. you have some great mods.
and in that mk2, it has to RIP!!!


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
i made 501 crank hp with the 4"

Jhayes, everybody here is talking about maxing out at 450ish whp. When jeff is talking about hp #'s he is talking whp. The 501 xpalendocious is talking about is at the crank...That explains the confusion http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (92g60gti)*

Any updates on people running this ?


----------



## Bthornton10 (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (radgti8v)*

I'm running this kit for about 7 months now and loving it only dyno'd it at 10psi and made 368whp on my t67 turbo putting in a new transmission and then hitting up the dyno again on high boost. Hoping for 525-600whp @ around 25-30 psi


----------



## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (Bthornton10)*

Thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Curious what you could get away with headspacer and ARP head studs, rod bolts ? Since your mod list seems to be pretty built.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (radgti8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radgti8v* »_Any updates on people running this ?

i believe they no longer sell the regular 630cc program, as it's been replaced by the pro-maf setup.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (radgti8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radgti8v* »_Any updates on people running this ?

The 630 and stage 3 software come with the T3/T67 stage 4 kinetics kit now so somebodies gotta be running it.

_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
i believe they no longer sell the regular 630cc program, as it's been replaced by the pro-maf setup.









I think they still sell it with the stage 4 kit and the stage 3 fueling setup, but i only saw the stage 4 setup as eprom only on C2's site.
stage 4 fueling is out here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
still no word on new OBD 1 tunes and 2L tunes though.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (all-starr-me)*


_Quote, originally posted by *all-starr-me* »_
still no word on new OBD 1 tunes and 2L tunes though.

Obd1: no current plans.
2L stuff will get worked on.... my Mk2 ABA swap should be running this season. (Obd2 ABA)
We discontuned 630 inj software on 4" maf, why:
1. The maf maxes out WAY BEFORE 630 inj. max out.
you cant use 630's potential with 4" MAF
2. The 42# tune is better tune.
3. 630 tune released with matching ProMaf. 

-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (radgti8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radgti8v* »_Thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Curious what you could get away with headspacer and ARP head studs, rod bolts ? Since your mod list seems to be pretty built.

I made 550 hp on the following setup: 100% stock block, had 170k miles before i boosted it. 9:1 headspacer. ARP headstuds. c2 stage4 630cc/promaf. SnowPerformance 2nozzle water/meth injection. Schimmel intake mani and 263 cams. Stock valves, no port work. 3" turbo back exhaust. oh and a garret gt37r


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (xpalendocious)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xpalendocious* »_
I made 550 hp on the following setup: 100% stock block, had 170k miles before i boosted it. 9:1 headspacer. ARP headstuds. c2 stage4 630cc/promaf. SnowPerformance 2nozzle water/meth injection. Schimmel intake mani and 263 cams. Stock valves, no port work. 3" turbo back exhaust. oh and a garret gt37r

Is that whp? Who's spacer? How much boost?
How's the motor holding up?
That's quite impressive.


----------



## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

Also what clutch ? Not sure my spec stage 3 could handle that.


----------



## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

Schimmel Performance spacer, 28psi, i have put on about 8000 miles in the last 8 months, and none of those miles are nice. been drag racing several times, street racing, 160+mph freeway runs, motor is still running strong. 
It was dyno'd on a hub dyno, pretty sure that reads WHP.
I have a clutchnet 6puck clutch with a stock pressure plate. holds the power no problem


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (xpalendocious)*

totality off topic but what psi r u seeing at the gauge for fuel at idle...i was told 38 psi but when im in boost in 4th gear it leans out to around 13.5..the other night i raised the fuel press. to 46/48 psi and i saw mid to high 11's on the wide band...the question is ..is the idle press. too high where my pump is not strong enough(walbro 255) in high rpms? or is that somewhat normal.....thanks guys


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (turbo toic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbo toic* »_totality off topic but what psi r u seeing at the gauge for fuel at idle...i was told 38 psi but when im in boost in 4th gear it leans out to around 13.5..

3 bar is going to be 43psi with the vac line unhooked, and around 38psi with it hooked (depending on how much vacuum your motor makes).
i'd suggest getting an external fuel pressure gauge, and do some testing to see how fuel pressure changes based on boost.


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*

the motor makes 20 on vac........yea i was plan on doin that just wanted to ask before goin to do that...thanks happy holidays


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (turbo toic)*

well i hooked up a fuel gauge and put a new fuel press. regulator and in 4th at 5500rpms its reading 12.5 n holding fuel psi....at ilde i had it set around 39psi with vac....i may get a bosch 044 n get rid of the walbro cuz its alil old....i also have a another question since im writing already...like 3 weeks ago the car was ilding fine between high n low 14's on the wideband and now its reasding mid 13's ...its cold in new work so should i get one size warmer plugs or do i have a diff. issue on my hands...thanks


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (turbo toic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbo toic* »_well i hooked up a fuel gauge and put a new fuel press. regulator and in 4th at 5500rpms its reading 12.5 n holding fuel psi....at ilde i had it set around 39psi with vac....i may get a bosch 044 n get rid of the walbro cuz its alil old....i also have a another question since im writing already...like 3 weeks ago the car was ilding fine between high n low 14's on the wideband and now its reasding mid 13's ...its cold in new work so should i get one size warmer plugs or do i have a diff. issue on my hands...thanks

does the A/F change after the car has properly reached operating temp? (the coolant temp sensor will make it run richer when the car is cold)


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*

well thats what i was thinking....i have 70 Celsius thermostat and low temp fan switch.....im thinking putting back the stock stuff ...thanks


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (turbo toic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbo toic* »_well thats what i was thinking....i have 70 Celsius thermostat and low temp fan switch.....im thinking putting back the stock stuff ...thanks

Don't waste your time. 10 degrees C will not make the car run richer.
An open coolant sensor that has the car thinking it's -40F will.
I have a 70 Celcius T-stat and lt fan switch as well. The car is in closed loop and A/F 14.5:1 well before the coolant needle budges which is below 70C.
I'm not sure of what the "threshold" is where coolant temp is so low that the car will run rich, but it's def. well below 70C.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Don't waste your time. 10 degrees C will not make the car run richer.
An open coolant sensor that has the car thinking it's -40F will.
I have a 70 Celcius T-stat and lt fan switch as well. The car is in closed loop and A/F 14.5:1 well before the coolant needle budges which is below 70C.


actually, it will. i've had a low temp thermostat and fan on both boost VRs, and removed it from both. In both cases i got much better mileage with the oem spec cooling temps.


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
actually, it will. i've had a low temp thermostat and fan on both boost VRs, and removed it from both. In both cases i got much better mileage with the oem spec cooling temps.


The only thing I can say is that it doesn't on my car. The car goes into closed loop within a few min. after startup and the coolant gauge is still pinned on cold. A/F's are perfect 14.5:1 at idle and part throttle. I'm am obd1 though.
For an FI car run the colder T-stat and fan switch if you can. Anything you can do to help stave off detonation means more power and a safer engine


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

well i ordered the fuel injector sensor off the coolent system and but back the oem fan sw. n thermostat and see what happens....thanks guys been a big help.....p.s. would a bad/weak bank 1 O2 sensor cuz this to run alil rich?


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (turbo toic)*

Yes.
I know it costs, but all these 96'-99' obd2 cars w/ running problems, how many of you are still running the original coilpack, MAF, O2 sensors, coolant sensor, etc.? 
Those parts are 10-13 yrs. old. They wear gradually and may not trip a code if not worn beyond the "threshold" yet, but can and do affect A/F, driveability, etc.
If any of those parts are original I'd throw them right in the garbage. I see guys spend $4-$5k on a turbo setup all the time and then trust a 10+ yr. old O2 sensor w/ over 100k on it to run it when the sensor costs $100










_Modified by slc92 at 10:12 AM 12-17-2009_


----------



## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

well i have extra O2 sensor im gonna try this weekend and ill let kno kno how that goes


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
For an FI car run the colder T-stat and fan switch if you can. Anything you can do to help stave off detonation means more power and a safer engine









i 100 disagree with this.
like i've said, i've owned two VRT setups that have had both low temp and oem spec temp cooling system, and without a doubt, they both ran better with the oem spec.
i'm not sure why you think running coolant out of spec is going to make more power or prevent detonation, but it's total hogwash.
if you have an overheating problem, you need to get a better cooling solution. the oem spec temp range is there for a reason.
p.s. i'm running significantly more power and timing than your car.


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## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*

well the 02 was my problem and replaced and now the car is runnning normal....thanks for all the help guys......
xpalendocious......how r those 288 cams working out for ya?im thinking about getting them in the spring time...


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
i 100 disagree with this.
like i've said, i've owned two VRT setups that have had both low temp and oem spec temp cooling system, and without a doubt, they both ran better with the oem spec.
i'm not sure why you think running coolant out of spec is going to make more power or prevent detonation, but it's total hogwash.
if you have an overheating problem, you need to get a better cooling solution. the oem spec temp range is there for a reason.
p.s. i'm running significantly more power and timing than your car.

I 100% disagree w/ you








My car has never overheated or even gotten close to it. Colder air, oil, coolant, head, spark plug temps all contribute to preventing detonation and seeing full timing.
I run a chip so I have no idea of what timing is.
I also only run 12psi and likely a different setup so you comparisons in power/timing to prove your point are moot, but nice try.
OEM spec cooling is there for alot of reasons. Mainly emissions. I'm making double the power it was OE. My main concern is power and keeping the motor together.
OE cooling in my car ~195
OE oil temps ~200-245
If you think those are ideal for power/safety in a boosted motor then you need to read more.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (turbo toic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbo toic* »_well the 02 was my problem and replaced and now the car is runnning normal....thanks for all the help guys......
xpalendocious......how r those 288 cams working out for ya?im thinking about getting them in the spring time...

Awesome. I had a feeling.
Keep that low temp t-stat and fan switch in there for a little more power and safety


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
I run a chip so I have no idea of what timing is.
.

once again, you go for the bury your head in the sand technique.
its quite easy to monitor timing (mapped versus actual) through vag-com.
just so you know. timing is changed based off of coolant temps.
the motor is designed around the idea that oil and water are always at the same temp. when you run your water cooler, the motor thinks that the oil is cooler than it actually is. So you may think it's safest, but it's actually the riskiest. So when your motor thinks that it can add more timing, it may not be suitable to do so.








p.s. my car had a turbo VR in it almost 10 years ago. how long has yours been turbo'd?








p.p.s. I've worked with every major automotive manufacturer in the world, and over 250 of the largest aftermarket manufacturers. I've even written stories that have been in Sport Compact Car, and Turbo Magazine.










_Modified by TBT-Syncro at 12:42 AM 12-19-2009_


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## jimivr6 (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*

you guys state good points but let's see the facts and no opinions please.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
once again, you go for the bury your head in the sand technique.
its quite easy to monitor timing (mapped versus actual) through vag-com.
just so you know. timing is changed based off of coolant temps.
the motor is designed around the idea that oil and water are always at the same temp. when you run your water cooler, the motor thinks that the oil is cooler than it actually is. So you may think it's safest, but it's actually the riskiest. So when your motor thinks that it can add more timing, it may not be suitable to do so.








p.s. my car had a turbo VR in it almost 10 years ago. how long has yours been turbo'd?








p.p.s. I've worked with every major automotive manufacturer in the world, and over 250 of the largest aftermarket manufacturers. I've even written stories that have been in Sport Compact Car, and Turbo Magazine.









_Modified by TBT-Syncro at 12:42 AM 12-19-2009_

I don't have vag com. Timing at WOT is based on knock and IAT. Lower coolant/oil/air temps help prevent knock.
That's a fact. I could care less what you've written. Everything I write has worked for me. That's all the proof I need.


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## Dubstuning (Nov 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
once again, you go for the bury your head in the sand technique.
its quite easy to monitor timing (mapped versus actual) through vag-com.
just so you know. timing is changed based off of coolant temps.
the motor is designed around the idea that oil and water are always at the same temp. when you run your water cooler, the motor thinks that the oil is cooler than it actually is. So you may think it's safest, but it's actually the riskiest. So when your motor thinks that it can add more timing, it may not be suitable to do so.

p.s. my car had a turbo VR in it almost 10 years ago. how long has yours been turbo'd?








p.p.s. I've worked with every major automotive manufacturer in the world, and over 250 of the largest aftermarket manufacturers. I've even written stories that have been in Sport Compact Car, and Turbo Magazine.




how about an oil cooler in addition to a lower temp thermostat and fan switch?? Your oil would run cooler as would your coolant. Also wouldnt lowering your coolant temperature lower you oil temp?

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
p.s. my car had a turbo VR in it almost 10 years ago

Built, installed, and tuned by someone else, right? 

_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
p.p.s. I've worked with every major automotive manufacturer in the world, and over 250 of the largest aftermarket manufacturers. 

That could be construed as meaning you can't hold down a job. 

_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
I've even written stories that have been in Sport Compact Car, and Turbo Magazine.


With all the worthless, advertiser-dollar driven crap presented as "editorial content" in those mags, that's not really something you should be bragging about. 
Are either of those mags still in print, even?


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## NeverEnding... (May 9, 2007)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (vr6swap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6swap* »_
Built, installed, and tuned by someone else, right? 
That could be construed as meaning you can't hold down a job. 
With all the worthless, advertiser-dollar driven crap presented as "editorial content" in those mags, that's not really something you should be bragging about. 
Are either of those mags still in print, even? 


obviously u have not been around this forums or else u would know who TBT is...go build a snowman


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## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (NeverEnding...)*

why u guys so hostile...this is the time to be happy







...season greetings


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (vr6swap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6swap* »_
That could be construed as meaning you can't hold down a job. 


actually. it was one job that had me working with all of them









nice contribution to the thread by the way.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*

I am actually running an oil coller as well so oil and coolant temps are generally around the same.
On a boosted motor preventing detonation is the key. Lower coolant temps, oil temps, air temps, etc. all do that. 
Are there arguments that a motor can be too cold and actually rob a little power? Sure. That goes out the window when you are talking boost. Knock will retard timing and kill power and could also destroy the motor. That's your main concern. We also aren't talking about 50 degrees here. A 70C degree T-stat is only 18 degrees colder than a 80C stock T-stat.
I don't care who TBT is. I rebuilt my motor three years ago, have run a low temp T-stat and fan switch in it the entire time, it burns zero oil, runs 14.5:1 A/F, makes great power and has not had one issue running 12psi at stock compression (10:1). Drag raced, 100 degree temps, etc. 
This place is one guy after another that tries to use theory to disprove someone else's setup that makes great power, runs well at the track, and has done so for years reliably. Kind of like the pencil neck geek at the gym that's an exercise physiology major that tells the bodybuilders they're doing it wrong.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

I'll add my $.02
I too run a low temp thermostat and fan switch. AZ summers are brutal and I need all the cooling I can get. This set up has run years without an issue, 26mpg cruising, massive power, consistency. In the winter, the fan simply gets unplugged to allow the engine to retain heat rather than "super cool" it.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_ A 70C degree T-stat is only 18 degrees colder than a 80C stock T-stat.


i see your math is as good as your logic.
the bottom line. if your cooling system is not capable of removing the heat that your motor is creating, then it doesnt matter what thermostat you're running. the motor will saturate the system, and it will overheat.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
i see your math is as good as your logic.
the bottom line. if your cooling system is not capable of removing the heat that your motor is creating, then it doesnt matter what thermostat you're running. the motor will saturate the system, and it will overheat.

You're posing a different argument. That the mods are done to compensate for a cooling problem. That would be incorrect. The mods were done to lower the operating temp of the engine which they have quite nicely.
Bottom line. A low temp t-stat and fan switch will keep the car at a lower operating temperature if your cooling system is capable which mine obviously is since the gauge now resides in the ~160-175 range vs. the ~180-195 range w/ the stock T-stat and fan switch. Same mileage, same A/F, and a little more protection against detonation








You lost. Find another thread to troll.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

This tread needs to get into balance again. Lets talk about this MK3 630cc.
I have it, and the car has been running great ever since. Easy plugn play. Ive had some issues, but it doesnt have anything with C2 to do.
At 22 psi I had AFR 11.5 - 12.1, and car was driving like it was stock. 3 bar fpr.
Idle is perfect, part throttle or full boost... the software runs perfect.
And this is on a Euro ECU. I asume its pretty identical to US ECU's, but I remember it was some issue's with that some years back.
Water temps or oil temps have nothing to do in this tread.
That is something that you guys can talk about in a diffrent thread.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
You lost. Find another thread to troll.

lol. i'm trolling? I'm the one who owns a c2 630 setup, and posts answers about it when people ask. You dont own it, have never used it, and have offered no insight in to it.
dont be mad at me because you're getting ripped apart in the drag forums.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
lol. i'm trolling? I'm the one who owns a c2 630 setup, and posts answers about it when people ask. You dont own it, have never used it, and have offered no insight in to it.
dont be mad at me because you're getting ripped apart in the drag forums. 









I think it's the other way around


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## Dubstuning (Nov 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I had C2 630cc and a walbro pump the walbro wasnt kicking out enough fuel and i had detonation in one of the rear cylinders. These problems were nothing to do with C2 or the tune it ran like a champ before that happened my AFR was running about 11.5 when i had the detonation but i am ditching it in favor of lugtronic and dual bosch 044 pumps being fed by a single walbro intank.


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## turbo toic (Aug 24, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Dubstuning)*

just wondering if anyone broke 600whp yet?....some of u guys r close tho


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## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

the point is that the engine runs hotter when you make more power...
You don't want to run the engine cooler than when it was N/A... just the same.
you turbo your car the heat produced is going to go up... to control that you fit an oil cooler to stop the oil braking down....
and coolant i wouldn't think to be as important.. as long as it reads 90 its at 90... the perfix running temputer for an engine...
If it starts going past 90 then yes. low temp stat and switch will help keep it at 90... starts cooling the water earlier.


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: C2Motorsports MK3 630cc Software Official Release......H2O 2008 (slc92)*

I've got a question. If I already have a Pro-Maf could I send it to you for calibration and if so how much do you guys charge for this?


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