# VW long term reliability and durability



## ELHOTA (Nov 18, 2014)

My first VW was an '81 Scirocco and that was fairly reliable and the best car I've ever owned. I also owned a jetta, a passat in the mid 90's. And they were the worst vehicles ever. After a couple years old, they started to rattle like everything is loose. Then the shakes when they idle. The oil leaks. Then the heater that smells and is always too hot.

And everyone I know who've bought vw because they drive nice, ... Have never bought another vw again.

I really like the 2015 Golfs and GTI and am considering buying a VW again after many years of Hondas. 
However, for the price of a gti, you can get into a BMW 3 series, and BMWs after a few years, still drive really nice. Vws are not very well built, I think. Anyone care to comment on the long term durability of recent VWs?


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

ELHOTA said:


> I really like the 2015 Golfs and GTI and am considering buying a VW again after many years of Hondas.
> However, *for the price of a gti, you can get into a BMW 3 series*, and BMWs after a few years, still drive really nice. Vws are not very well built, I think. Anyone care to comment on the long term durability of recent VWs?


No, you can't - even remotely similarly equipped.

BMWs are notoriously expensive to maintain, while there are many (non-VW) repair shops that can repair VWs at a much lower rate than VW does (after warranty).

I would say after the MkV Golf, most VWs are more reliable than US-produced cars and approach Japanese cars in reliability. Consumer Reports rated the 2.5 Golf as more reliable than any Japanese manufacturer's combined product, that is, as, for example, more reliable than the average Toyota car.

My personal experience has been splendid. Still driving my almost 15-year old Passat, with very few and inexpensive repairs over the past 5 years (car had a 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty - so almost no costs til then). Before I got my 2010 Golf, I drove a MkIII Golf for 170,000 miles with the best, lowest cost-of-ownership I could imagine (low fuel consumption, very low maintenance costs, and lack of necessary repairs, combined). No problems with my almost 5-year old MkVI Golf, to date. :thumbup:


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## ocramida (Nov 26, 2012)

I came from Japanese cars and I'm finding my Golf R to be not only better built but also better designed, regarding the little details, than any Japanese car I've owned. That's not to say my Japanese cars weren't reliable. They were dead nuts reliable, but they also had really annoying issues that took away from the ownership experience. Cost cutting in very apparent areas like cheap steering wheels and plastic trim started buzzing and rattling pretty early in their lives. 

I also think that every car manufacturer has their bad dark days. The difference is in the marketing spin (Toyota has touted reliability forever despite their quality suffering at times) and the fact that consumers in general don't maintain their cars properly resulting in a domino effect of issues that end up costing them.

So I disagree that VW's are built poorly. I think that sentiment is a product of some bad periods in their history-especially their manufacturing in Pennsylvania during the 80 and early 90's. 

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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

feels_road said:


> No, you can't - even remotely similarly equipped.
> 
> BMWs are notoriously expensive to maintain, while there are many (non-VW) repair shops that can repair VWs at a much lower rate than VW does (after warranty).
> 
> ...


Personal experience does not a fleet make. VW still scores well below the Japanese and below some domestic cars in reliability. The 2014 J.D. Powers US vehicle dependability study states the industry average problems per 100 vehicles as 133. VW scores at 158. Toyota and both Honda score at 114. Ford is at 140. Chevrolet has a score of 132. Subaru is at 131. The data comes from 2011 vehicles after 3 years of ownership. VW does not have a single car that wins its segment in dependability while Chevy, Honda, GMC, Toyota, Scion, Buick, Cadillac, Lexus, and Acura have cars that win their respective segments. VW still leads Japanese and domestic brands in warranty accrual rates. 

The 2013 Golf is rated at 2 of 5 stars in predicted reliability by J.D. Powers. The 2013 Corolla and Civic have a rating of 4 of 5. The Cruze and Focus gets 3 of 5.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

VR6Now said:


> Personal experience does not a fleet make. VW still scores well below the Japanese and below some domestic cars in reliability. The 2014 J.D. Powers US vehicle dependability study states the industry average problems per 100 vehicles as 133. VW scores at 158. Toyota and both Honda score at 114. Ford is at 140. Chevrolet has a score of 132. Subaru is at 131. The data comes from 2011 vehicles after 3 years of ownership. VW does not have a single car that wins its segment in dependability while Chevy, Honda, GMC, Toyota, Scion, Buick, Cadillac, Lexus, and Acura have cars that win their respective segments. VW still leads Japanese and domestic brands in warranty accrual rates.
> 
> The 2013 Golf is rated at 2 of 5 stars in predicted reliability by J.D. Powers. The 2013 Corolla and Civic have a rating of 4 of 5. The Cruze and Focus gets 3 of 5.


These ratings are based on comment from owners. It is not legitimate reliability data. Owners don't know a reliability problem from a full ash tray.


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## v b chil-n (Nov 6, 2000)

We are on our 8th VW and also had 4 Audi's and they have all gone the distance without major incidents. 
I will say that our 01 A6 did suffer a transmission issue late in it's life but I think it was electrical and the 
car was approaching 300k so we didn't bother trying to fix her. All our other cars ran fine with none going in for 
a major repair. Our current VW fleet are all over 100k and my Passat 3.6 is almost at 200k and except for a bad
Cat and the failed headliner everything else has been minor.

I have yet to drive a car of any make that did not get rattles after a while and I hardly think that should factor into
the reliability equation, nor should wear and tear items. The oil leaks and rattles could be anything and without 
knowing the history or age of a car one cannot automatically blame the car.

I think the VW dealers are more to blame for the brands reliability concerns than the cars themselves. They tend to go overboard
in my opinion with some issues and under estimate others which results in return visits or extend down times for customers.
As an example, when my cat started to fail it did not sound like a cat, it sounded like something in the engine was scrapping metal
to metal. They wanted to pull the entire engine just to figure out what was wrong. They gave me a quote for $2500 for random parts 
having to do with the oil pump that they weren't even certain that it was the issue. I almost went ahead with it because of the know 
oil pump bolt issue but decided to put the car on jack stands to look for myself and I'm glad I did.
I would not hesitate to buy another VW, the only thing that would prevent it would be the current styling which I'm not a fan of.


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## prothe (Feb 22, 2010)

I've noticed for years that consumer reports always loved Toyota and Mazda, and gave them the best ratings. VW always received mixed reviews. But when you read German magazines like Auto Motor und Sport, they would rank the German and Japanese cars about the same for reliability, and in terms of satisfaction with the car brand, the German brands were always on top. It was interesting to me that the same cars are perceived differently in different countries.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

VR6Now said:


> The 2014 J.D. Powers US vehicle dependability study states the industry average problems per 100 vehicles as 133. VW scores at 158. Toyota and both Honda score at 114. Ford is at 140. Chevrolet has a score of 132. Subaru is at 131.


That's not long-term reliability - and all these minor issues in the first three years are covered under warranty.

More importantly, the differences between the prime manufacturers' "dependability" are negligible, for most people, considering other _major_ differences and advantages of the various brands.


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

Basically it comes down to, do you take care of your vehicles? If you take proper care of them then you should have many miles of no issues. If you fail to take care of anything, like to put things off blah blah. Then I'd say no stick with your honda. I bought mine used with 100k I haven't had any problems and absolutely love my car. The quality is far superior as well.


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## ocramida (Nov 26, 2012)

smgs92 said:


> Basically it comes down to, do you take care of your vehicles? If you take proper care of them then you should have many miles of no issues. If you fail to take care of anything, like to put things off blah blah. Then I'd say no stick with your honda. I bought mine used with 100k I haven't had any problems and absolutely love my car. The quality is far superior as well.


+1
These are machines. Machines need to be cared for. European products are arguably even more sensitive to proper maintenance.

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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

ocramida said:


> ....European products are arguably even more sensitive to proper maintenance.....


Explain. You have facts?


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

feels_road said:


> That's not long-term reliability - and all these minor issues in the first three years are covered under warranty.
> 
> More importantly, the differences between the prime manufacturers' "dependability" are negligible, for most people, considering other _major_ differences and advantages of the various brands.


And you have the factual information to back up your assertion that "all these minor issues" are minor? Please share your information with the rest of us. We would love to see the data that you are looking at to support that statement. Also, the point about the difference in dependability is negligible sounds like its nothing more than your personal opinion. If so, did you mean to say 'I believe that the differences in dependability may be negligible'?

Most of the data for dependability and reliability is collected in the first 2-5 years. Yes, that includes the Consumer Reports you value so highly. By your standard, its short term too. Long term reliability is usually derived from the early years component malfuctions. In your post, I do not recall you making the same statement about the consumer reports info?

Here's something longer term for you and it basically says the same thing as warranty accruals and J.D. Powers. Volkswagen is not competitive to the Japanese in dependability. 

http://www.tradeinqualityindex.com/reports/Volkswagen.html

The best models in this study were just average. Of course the rest were below average. I can't seem to find a single piece of information that backs up your claims but there's some to the contrary. 

Beliefs are cool and all but but they are just that without validation. Believe what you wish but make sure you don't assert authoritative knowledge you simply do not possess.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

smgs92 said:


> Basically it comes down to, do you take care of your vehicles? If you take proper care of them then you should have many miles of no issues. If you fail to take care of anything, like to put things off blah blah. Then I'd say no stick with your honda. I bought mine used with 100k I haven't had any problems and absolutely love my car. The quality is far superior as well.


The horn failed on my 2013 Jetta TDI because I didn't take care of it? I thought it was VW had a rash of horns failing in cold weather. I guess I also failed to take proper care of my Kessy system cause it failed to. Now my AC switch is sticky amd I'm starting to see signs of the AC compressor valve acting up. I just need to take better car of my car. How I don't know.

Same with my 2012 Tiguan. It shut itsself off a couple times while driving. I don't know how me not taking care of it resulted in a national recall for the problem. $700 warranty charge for the sunroof sunshade coming apart. I missed that in the maintenace schedule too.

I love VW's. I bought enough of them but I must be honest with myself. Dependability isn't class leading. I know and accept it. I have anodotal stories of people who didn't take care of Altimas, Camrys, and Corollas and the cars lasted just fine with minimal care. I take of my VW/Audis attentively and none of this care would've avoided the steering rack, AC vent flaps, instrument cluster, window regulators, AC control module, door wire repair, speaker replacement, glove box lock, and other built in failure points that I don't even remember right now. The good news is I had no major powertrain failures. I found out about the 1.8T timing belts being inadequate before mine went pop.

It could also be that I don't keep them long enough to have a lot of major issues.


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

VR6Now said:


> The horn failed on my 2013 Jetta TDI because I didn't take care of it? I thought it was VW had a rash of horns failing in cold weather. I guess I also failed to take proper care of my Kessy system cause it failed to. Now my AC switch is sticky amd I'm starting to see signs of the AC compressor valve acting up. I just need to take better car of my car. How I don't know.
> 
> Same with my 2012 Tiguan. It shut itsself off a couple times while driving. I don't know how me not taking care of it resulted in a national recall for the problem. $700 warranty charge for the sunroof sunshade coming apart. I missed that in the maintenace schedule too.
> 
> ...


How does that stuff fit into reliability? I'm talking power train not every little detail because if you count all those little details then yeah it's gonna be less reliable than a toyota with no features. Look at kia and hyundai they have millions of little issues with their features yet i still see people rage on about how much they love their new kia. I don't see how the AC is VW fault when the actual compressor is made by denso and used by a variety of other brands as well.
Hell my Nissan I had before had been in the shop a few times for issues granted none were extra features just big stuff like the head gasket. Water pump, oil pump, exhaust had a nasty hole in it. etc.. a bunch of bigger more expensive problems. My current f150 I bought the same day as my VW both have had around 20k put on them. No issues with the VW but my f150 has cost me over $7k in the same time period. Oh the kicker is I drive my VW more than my truck. I had a mercury before as well, well that wasn't trouble free either. I put 2 fuel pumps in it. Spark plugs broke off in the engine, sunroof motor went out. AC went out, radio never worked right. Mitsubishi I had was just a joke it literally broke down atleast once every 1-2months. Cost me a couple thousand before I got rid of it. Basically my VW has been more reliable than any of my other vehicles and yet besides the mitsubishi is probably rated the lowest in reliability.


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## ocramida (Nov 26, 2012)

smgs92 said:


> How does that stuff fit into reliability? I'm talking power train not every little detail because if you count all those little details then yeah it's gonna be less reliable than a toyota with no features. Look at kia and hyundai they have millions of little issues with their features yet i still see people rage on about how much they love their new kia. I don't see how the AC is VW fault when the actual compressor is made by denso and used by a variety of other brands as well.
> Hell my Nissan I had before had been in the shop a few times for issues granted none were extra features just big stuff like the head gasket. Water pump, oil pump, exhaust had a nasty hole in it. etc.. a bunch of bigger more expensive problems. My current f150 I bought the same day as my VW both have had around 20k put on them. No issues with the VW but my f150 has cost me over $7k in the same time period. Oh the kicker is I drive my VW more than my truck. I had a mercury before as well, well that wasn't trouble free either. I put 2 fuel pumps in it. Spark plugs broke off in the engine, sunroof motor went out. AC went out, radio never worked right. Mitsubishi I had was just a joke it literally broke down atleast once every 1-2months. Cost me a couple thousand before I got rid of it. Basically my VW has been more reliable than any of my other vehicles and yet besides the mitsubishi is probably rated the lowest in reliability.


Just wondering what cost 7K with the F150? Wasn't it still in warranty with 20k miles?


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

ocramida said:


> Just wondering what cost 7K with the F150? Wasn't it still in warranty with 20k miles?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Used 04 Lariat. Basically they did an engine rebuild and replaced the whole rear end that was $5k and a few other misc things. Luckily for me I got it WAY under KBB value but still pissed about it.


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## ELHOTA (Nov 18, 2014)

Thanks very much for this Trade Quality Index site. The charts for vehicles over 18 years and over 180k are especially insightful. This basically tells us that VWs are not built to last a long time in terms of years and mileage, judging by the low ratio of vehicles that are in those categories. Toyotas and Hondas, on the other hand, are.


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## smgs92 (May 21, 2013)

ELHOTA said:


> Thanks very much for this Trade Quality Index site. The charts for vehicles over 18 years and over 180k are especially insightful. This basically tells us that VWs are not built to last a long time in terms of years and mileage, judging by the low ratio of vehicles that are in those categories. Toyotas and Hondas, on the other hand, are.


Well if you're talking about vehicles up to 18yrs old honestly Honda shouldn't be in that category due to the majority of them being on their 2nd-3rd engine with the amount of "tuners" swapping them after blowing them up. I've seen quite a few VW over 200k and even a few over 300k. diesel VW seen with 600k. If you take care of something it will last, if you don't it won't last it doesn't matter who makes it. VW have more moving parts and extra features than Japanese equivalents. The majority of VW lineup has a turbo on it as well. Anyone with basic car knowledge knows more moving parts and more pressure equals less reliability. So instead why not compare the NA engines to other NA engines and the turbocharged engines to other turbocharged engines? This would make it much more fair in a comparison.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Also, 6-cyl. Hondas either needed a completely new automatic transmission or required extensive and expensive re-builds every ~50,000 miles until about 2004-2005 model years. To date I would not buy a 6-cyl. AT Honda, and would prefer a manual even on the old 4-cyl. models.


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## ELHOTA (Nov 18, 2014)

This article sums it up about VW

http://www.carsguide.com.au/comment-why-vw-inaction-over-reliability-will-dent-sales-26343


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