# dual nozzles vs single nozzles



## GLIdriver14 (Jan 5, 2008)

whats really the advantage or disadvantage between each? and im just talking about the stock k03s


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles (GLIdriver14)*

First of all, the major benefits that you get from WAI are tied to the evaporation of fluid. That atomized fluid (usually 50/50 water/methanol) evaporates at a particular rate (depending on a bunch of variables that we needn't discuss right now). So, the distance that the nozzle is from the engine dictates how much of the stuff is fully evaporated by the time it gets from the nozzle to the combustion chamber. Ideally, you size the nozzles for maximum cooling and octane boost.
Spraying far from the engine (e.g. just AFTER the IC) allows for maximum evaporation and thusly maximum cooling. Most of that spray will have turned to steam by the time it reaches the throttle body. So, it does little to suppress detonation.
Conversely, spraying very close to the engine (e.g. just after the throttle body) does little to cool since most of the droplets do not have the chance to evaporate. However, they change from liquid to gas in the cylinders which = maximum octane boost/detonation suppression.
You can certainly place a single nozzle mid way between the IC and the TB for a compromise of both cooling and detonation suppression. It works GREAT. However, it won't work as well as 2 nozzles placed at extreme ends of the intake piping. The longer the intake pipes the more dramatic the effect.
Frankly, though, if you've got only a small KO3 that's working extra hard with a stock IC and charge pipe... I'd go with a single nozzle placed just after the cooler. Go for the hardcore dual set up later if your budget is modest. Get that bang for the buck! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GLIdriver14 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles ([email protected])*

well i plan on getting a front mount before w/m however i will probbly be staying on the k03s for a while so should i just stick with the one nozzle or just go for the 2 that way i have no worries about upgrading? and since im only on the stock turbo the kit from snow performance should i be looking at stage 1 or stage 2? and how hard is it to upgrade from one nozzles too two?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles (GLIdriver14)*

I'd invest in the WAI system before you go with a FMIC. The spray will cool more than a FMIC and won't drop your boost level or dull your throttle response, either. It only adds about 8lbs weight while the FMIC could be 50+. The FMIC, however, will pay off big time when you go with massive boost from a proper turbo.
If money is an object a single nozzle solution is fine. A dual set up is certainly "better". However, your nozzle sizes are going to be different depending on if you go with single or dual and then also once you step up to the big turbo configuration. It's better to change just one nozzle than both. So, my advice is to keep it simple. Adding a second nozzle later is a cinch.
As for the level of kit you need, you absolutely must go with a Stage2. The Stage1 systems are actuated with an on/off switch and are entirely unsuiable to your application. Stage2 uses an engine load referencing controller which ensures smooth operation (i.e. no bogs or misfires + max power output). http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GLIdriver14 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles ([email protected])*

ok so with what i am trying to do i should go with the single nozzle stage 2 w/m kit and place the (what size nozzle do you suggest) in between the intercooler and intake manifold. and how big is the stock washer fluid resoivor? (sp?)..and what ive always wondered is if i use it from there arent i using really expensive washer fluid if i can even still use it. i heard running washer fluid itself is efficient enough so long as its the strongest methanol solution.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles (GLIdriver14)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLIdriver14* »_what size nozzle do you suggest

Let me know what size fuel injectors and fuel pressure regulator you're running. (Don't tell me "stock" unless you clarify what your engine code is.) Also, tell me what boost pressure you peak at. I'll calculate a nozzle/pump pressure solution.

_Quote »_how big is the stock washer fluid resoivor? (sp?)

The reservoir size depends on what car you have. But, I don't know the answer, anyway.










_Quote »_..and what ive always wondered is if i use it from there arent i using really expensive washer fluid if i can even still use it.

You can certainly spray the WAI solution on your windshield. It's more expensive than the stuff you buy in jugs.

_Quote »_i heard running washer fluid itself is efficient enough so long as its the strongest methanol solution.

Deep winter-strength washer fluid is usually 30% methanol (plus ammonia and dye). The 3-season mix is usually just 20%. Meanwhile, the place to start is with a 50/50 water/methanol ratio. That's easier to tune with and often produces more torque.
If you put the 50/50 mix in your stock washer bottle, though, you'll find that your dashboard light will stay lit as if the conainer is empty. Spike the mix with some washer fluid and the light will eventually go off.


----------



## GLIdriver14 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles ([email protected])*

i run a 2005 gli 1.8t AWP.. the fpr is a 3 bar i believe but idk what the injector size is and my peak boost is 22 lbs
and ok so i would just start out 50/50 and go from there


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles (GLIdriver14)*

You've got 317cc fuel injectors, so... with those other variables included... my advice to you is to use a 175cc nozzle (placed just after the IC) at about 200psi pump pressure. That'll flow enough to do the job just fine. The extra pump pressure will ensure that the spray droplets are as fine as can be. Small droplets = faster evaporation = more heat pull. Since the stock intake pipe is quite short, a fair amount of that spray will still be liquid when it gets into the combustion chamber. That means you get a nice octane boost, too.
My goal is for you to do the job right with the greatest value. This is how I suggest you do it! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GLIdriver14 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: dual nozzles vs single nozzles ([email protected])*

thanks for all the info bro..really glad this forum got started! will be in touch with you when the time comes around for this all to go in. hopefully soon if money allows it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

*Re: nozzles, cooling ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I'd invest in the WAI system before you go with a FMIC. The spray will cool more than a FMIC and won't drop your boost level or dull your throttle response, either. 

That's what I've been pondering for a while now.

To tag onto this thread, if I may...








I've got a TT w/ the 225 motor, so dual sidemount intercoolers. I really don't care to tinker w/ timing , I'd really want to use WAI for it's cooling (and cleaning) effect. Where would you recommend placing a single nozzle on a 225TT if your goal is maximum cooling? (No plans for big turbo. APR chip, running 21-22 psi peak, 18-19 psi hold.)


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: nozzles, cooling (DnA-TT)*

Derek, in your case you should place the single nozzle *after* which ever IC is farther away from the throttle body. That's pretty much all there is to it. The greater distance ensures that maximum evaporation will occur. That will drop the IAT as much as possible.


----------



## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

*Re: nozzles, cooling ([email protected])*

Interesting - so you recommend putting the nozzle in between the 1st and 2nd intercooler?
Why not before both intercoolers? (Curious, because there's a nice hard pipe to tap into right after the turbo, before both intercoolers). Plus, that'd be _that much_ farther from the throttle body for even more cooling.


_Modified by DnA-TT at 6:03 PM 8-25-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: nozzles, cooling (DnA-TT)*

Sorry, I didn't think that one through completely. You must NEVER put a nozzle before any intercooler. An air/air IC depends on the difference in temperature between ambient and that inside the core in order for the heat to be transfered. If you spray before the IC you'll reduce that differential and will thusly reduce the core's ability to do its job.
A WAI nozzle must always be placed AFTER the IC core/s.


----------



## DnA-TT (Oct 21, 2003)

Re: Nozzles & placement after ICs. Makes perfect sense to me. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
When the time comes, I'll ask more specifics (pump, rate, nozzle, installation, onset, etc). But for now, I'll just keep reading...and probably get those answers before I have to ask them!
Thanks for the input.


----------



## motorcrazy27 (Sep 29, 2007)

good to know when i go to do mines


----------



## R_lara2 (Aug 10, 2007)

*Re: nozzles, cooling ([email protected])*

Scott, Im planing on doing my install this weekend i own a 2007 gli 2.0t FSI with apr stage 2+ and down pipe evrything else is stock, what noozle size should i use, should i adjust the pumps presure and where exacly should i install the nozzle im a little woried about instaling it in the ruber hose, is it necesary to install a throttle pipe.
Thanks
P.S my w/m is snow performance stage 2 maf kit.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: nozzles, cooling (R_lara2)*

For that set up... I'd use a 225cc nozzle and would mount it just after the intercooler. The standard 150psi pump pressure is ideal in this case, so leave it there. As for the mounting, I'd run one of these in your rubber pipe:


----------



## R_lara2 (Aug 10, 2007)

*Re: nozzles, cooling ([email protected])*

where can i get this do you sell it 
Thanks.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: nozzles, cooling (R_lara2)*

Click the photo, Richard.


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

*Re: nozzles, cooling ([email protected])*

I can understand the theory behind the dual system but how much of a difference do you believe it makes? I mean for the amount of time the charge is in the piping there can't be much of a differennce between the single and dual.


----------

