# Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (2 VB921's)



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

I just assembled an MS1 3.0 with dual VB921's to run a wasted spark set-up on a 1.8 8V (Test car). The car is already running on a Megasquirt 2.2 with spark control. I fitted a crank sensor and 60-2 wheel, and ran power and ground to the MS, and hooked it up to my crank sensor. Here is the diagram I used for the VR sensor, and I think I am OK here, because the MS responded with a perfect RPM reading, but I am getting no ignition pulse from either VB921 (I do have injector pulse though.)... 








Here is a link for my MSQ if it will help, as I feel it is a programming error on my part. (029Q)
http://www.iwishiwereanoscarma...1.zip 
Here is the diagram I used for the dual VB921 install... 








The only thing I noticed was that none of the LED related components are installed in this diagram, and mine are all installed. Do these components need to be ommited to run the LED outputs as coil driver pulse to the VB921's? I am assuming not as I have never had to remove them on a distributor based 3.0, or 2.2. Here is a pic of my LED take offs and VB921 install (VB921's side by side) 
















I basically have the car running on the 2.2, and am using the engines newly fitted 60-2 wheel as an RPM input to test the 3.0 system on my benchtop. Any insight as to my problem? I am offering money to the person that finds my issue!


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

regarding your IM, the motor i set up with wasted spark did not have spark output A jumpered. it was simply running it off of the board.
check out the generic wheel decoder section of the MSnS -e website. set up two spark outputs (A, and B) as per that site. this will require you adding another vb921 (i used the proto area).
you dont have to remove any components to run the vb921 setup the way i had made it, so youre right on that assumption.
im at work and dont really have time to pour over it right now, but perhaps that setup you were using was flawed from the get-go? anyone say they have had it working?
if you are getting an rpm signal then the tooth counting portion should be fine. grab an LED test light and test the vb921s for power and ground (if you havent already, you didnt mention it...).
also, because i am at work i cant open your msq file. can you post screenshots of the spark settings and wheel counting windows?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

Here are my settings...
































The LED's (17+19) do not seem to flash as if they are trying to fire the drivers. I just built this ECU, so it has not run a car yet. I have built literally 100's of megasquirts, but have only done wasted spak with EDIS to date, so it is assembled well, just may not be set-up 100% correctly for the 2 VB921's. I followed the diagrams in the MS-extra manual...
















And have gone over them 100 times, I am pretty sure I am dead on here. As far as the VB921's, I have gound on the right hand prongs, the center progs headed out to the coil pack, and the left hand prongs headed through the 330 ohm resisters to the top of R26, and R29 per the diagram, So I have no positive on any prongs. Also, I removed and jumpered R37 and R38 and installed my second VB921 where R37 used to be.
For reference...











_Modified by patatron at 11:16 AM 11-3-2006_


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

like i said earlier, ive never seen those pictures before.
here is what i used.
you wire spark A like so:









the spark B as per this one









thats how i have set it up, and i KNOW that works. 
as a side note, even with the wrong wheel decoder settings (i dont have time here at work to think too hard about where yours are at, that stuff really doesnt come easily to me haha) it should still be producing some kind of signal out through those FETs. which would lead me to beleive that something is wrong with your wiring/FET hookup. perhaps you have more time than me at the moment to have another go through your wiring and compare the circuits i have to those i posted.

looking again at your wiring and the pictures you posted it appears that they have tried to incorporate these two pictures into their diagram. so its possible that they are in fact the same. which would lead us down another path for troubleshooting....hmmm


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

I am concerned now! Both of my VB921's are wired just as your diagrams, and I just went through the board 1 component at a time to look for backwards parts, etc, and everything appears to be perfect. I have about .5mm of runout on my 60-2 wheel as well, so the VR sensor is spaced about .5mm on one side, and 1mm from the trigger wheel once the crank is rotated 180 degrees, I hope that is within specs and is not the cause of my issue. Because the RPM signal appears to be very stable!


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_ Because the RPM signal appears to be very stable!

its not a vr issue if the rpm is good. from my understanding at least....
check the output of the FETs with an LED test light if you havent already. are you just not getting spark, or are they not putting out a signal?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

I use a MAC LED test ligh during all of my testing, and i am not getting a pule to or from the 921's. I am assuming the 17 and 19 LED's should pulse with RPM when set-up this way? I think I am simply not getting a pulse to the 921's at all.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

LEDs should go, in time with the FETs. correct.

i think you have a board issue somewhere.
are these FETs known to be good? can you easily swap to another set?
though the fact that neither is working is rather suspicious.
i would unhook the coils from the harness, and resume testing, to elimiate any other variables. but i would bet money that its some kind of board issue


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

It was a brand new kit from DIYautotune, so I assume all is good, But I also have another 3.0 kit here, so I think I am gonna assemble it, and see if it works OK.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

if theyre both not working i would suspect an issue on your end.
you said you had ground to both?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

Yup, ground is good on both.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

try reflashing the MSnS -e 029q firmware.
then reload your msq, and verify again that spark A and B are set up again in that....
also, check the output INTO the FETs. we know it doesnt work out of them, but is there a switching signal coming in.
have you double checked the pinout of the FETs?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

I may have found the issue. I swear the instructions specifically said to put the trimmer pots (R52 and R56) the way I put them, but a picture from RS autosport shows them reversed. Which is correct?
rs-autosport=








Mine=


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

longest lead should be closest to the heat sink according to the instructions.
however, even if they are in backwards (i just put an ecu together too...and i forget which way they went...) your VR signal is fine (steady, accurate rpm), which means i HIGHLY doubt thats your issue.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

a quick search on google reveals that youve got em in right (though rs's could be right as well, if they had a different supplier for their pots...)

























but again, this wouldnt have been the issue anyhow (and you should have more confidence in your work







) because your VR signal was good


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_I am concerned now! Both of my VB921's are wired just as your diagrams


off work now, a bit more time to sit and think about this.
i dont actually think you do....
your instructions make no mention of jumpering IGBTIN or IGBTOUT. (as per the first diagram i posted in the instructions which i followed)
check for that. id bet this could lead us down the right path...


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_your instructions make no mention of jumpering IGBTIN or IGBTOUT. (as per the first diagram i posted in the instructions which i followed)
check for that. id bet this could lead us down the right path...

I have all the jumpers in place per this diagram...


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

where is IGBTOUT on that diagram? could be that im just missing it in the picture
for reference

















though, if you were just missing the jumper to igbtout, it would stand to reason that one of the spark outputs would work...


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

well, im off for the evening.
hopefully its at least been constructive to have someone else forcing you to rethink your work









but, i have one parting suggestion.

if you havent already assembled that second ecu. do that. but follow the diagrams i posted. and just use the onboard vb921 for spark A.
then add another in the proto area (as per that diagram) for spark B. see if that doesnt work for you









might also be worth checking continuity from one of the spark driver to the main chip (as i forget which pins do the switching...) and see if youre getting a spark output there.


_Modified by ValveCoverGasket at 6:41 PM 11-3-2006_


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*









This is IGBTOUT
I am building the second ECU now, should be done in an hour or so


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (urojetta)*

I built the second ECU, and tested it. I built it 100% identical. It fires the coil! But the RPM was reading up to 40K RPM! So after that i went out to see the Borat movie, and while at my brothers place, It popped into my head instantly! I left the "Stim for wheel" Activated. So it was getting the real RPM pulse, and the simulated one from the MS. I will test it early tomorrow, and I think it will be fine. If all is well with this one, at least I will have a good ECU for test comparison with the troubled unit!
The new ECU...


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

so it was an issue with board assembly








glad to hear the second ecu is workin out


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

I am gonna have to pour over the first one tomorrow. I built most of it. It was purchased new from DIYAutotune as a kit by one of my friends as an MS2 kit and he started to assemble it. I took it over after 20% of it was done, and finished it from there, and then put an MS1 chip in it. All of the components are in right, as I looked one at a time, and crossed off each component on a checklist. Some of his soldering is a bit shifty, so it may be something as simple as that. I will post what the fix for this ECU ends up being, and if the second ECU will actually run the car tomorrow. Thanks again!


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

youre welcome

glad i could help, and now youre gonna go make money off of it


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*

Well I tested the new ECU, it has strong spark, but I still have the timing off because when I swapped out the spark plug wires from the distributor, and then tried to run it off of the coilpack, it was doing that hard cranking deal like when your timing is too far advanced. I have known good ABA crank settings in, and have the VR sensor pointed at the 14th tooth after the 2 tooth gap when the motor is at TDC, so it should be close. That is no biggie though, I just wanted to make sure the ECU was physically working properly. Both ECU's read perfect RPM readings, i just have to figure out why the first one has no output.


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

OK, got the first ECU to spark now. Even though the RPM signal appeared to be perfect, the lower adjustment pot had to be turned a few turns clockwise to get it to operate properly. I just need to figure out why my timing is not properly sync'd up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_OK, got the first ECU to spark now.


what was it missing?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_
what was it missing?

All it needed was the pot adjustment. I just gotta figure out why my timing is so far off. I have Cyl's 1 & 4, and 2 & 3 paired up, spark "A" driving 1 & 4, and spark "B" driving 2 & 3. I am using what are supposedly known to be good ABA engine settings...








And set up my crank wheel like this so the signal from the car should bacically be in sync with an ABA... (As I gathered from my other thread that the VR sensor was to be the 14th tooth after the gap, which is tooth 15.)








I had one concern though, as the triger return numbers seem to be way more extreme compared to triggers of the same letter in comparison the the suggested trigger settings of a generic 60-2 in the MS manual...








So I tried altering my trigger settings to be proportional, but that made no difference...








I am pretty sure it is just down to this timing now though, and the injector pulse, and ignition pulse seem to go smoothly with RPM now, and spark is great.


_Modified by patatron at 3:22 PM 11-5-2006_


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## toyotec (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

Glad to see you are getting it working.
Is the timing still off or have you sloved it. Bottom end (tooth/trigger settings I gave you) on your USspec ABA should be the same as our UK AUG 1.8T or even our AGG 2.0 8v I would hope. If you find its not lining up with your screen timing you can play around with the trigger settings. In a msq for a 20vT I had this set at 58* to be spot on with what I had on the screen.
Let me know how it goes.

2.0 ABF 16v Powered by Toyotec and Megasquirt
UKs First 20vT MSnS-e Wasted Spark


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (toyotec)*


_Quote, originally posted by *toyotec* »_Glad to see you are getting it working.
Is the timing still off or have you sloved it. Bottom end (tooth/trigger settings I gave you) on your USspec ABA should be the same as our UK AUG 1.8T or even our AGG 2.0 8v I would hope. If you find its not lining up with your screen timing you can play around with the trigger settings. In a msq for a 20vT I had this set at 58* to be spot on with what I had on the screen.
Let me know how it goes.

2.0 ABF 16v Powered by Toyotec and Megasquirt
UKs First 20vT MSnS-e Wasted Spark

Thanks, I need to relook at your e-mail now that i have got the ECU working properly, it is gonna take some digging, I get about 30 e-mails a day, I knew I whould have saved that one in a folder!


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## GTOBB (Dec 30, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (patatron)*

I had problem with wasted spark, use 2xvb921 and bosch dual coil, when cruising 1000-2000rpm some times megasquirt cut of ignition, fuel pump (hear that relay tic tac x2-5 times )and comunications with PC, maybe injection too , it's looks like no power supply on .5-1 second, when put full throttle some times turn on, when ride over 2500rpm everything is ok, what is this ? before I use single coil and distributor and its OK ,
engine is ABF with 276 cams, ported head ....








Krzysztof



_Modified by GTOBB at 11:28 PM 3-18-2008_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (GTOBB)*

If you hear the fuel pump blip the MS is probably losing power somehow. While MT is running watch the lower right corner and see if the reset counter increments when it happens.


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## GTOBB (Dec 30, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (need_a_VR6)*

I measuring 5v and is ok , it happens when rpm is low 1000-2000rpm and try to run car slowly, reset couter count 15 times in 5 minutes, when drive over 2000rpm everything is OK.
its strange .
what to do ??
perhaps 60-2 cam sensor , or to much space between sensor and 60-2 wheel ????
Krzysztof


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (GTOBB)*

I would run a new power and ground wire to the MS ecu and see if it keeps happening. A short from 5v supply to ground might do the same but check the simple things first.


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## GTOBB (Dec 30, 2003)

*Re: Anyone using MS 3.0 for wasted spark without EDIS? (need_a_VR6)*

I think problem solved
I connect coils directly to engine and work properly as yet.


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