# HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious!



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Updated 8.18.03* 
Some of you guys may have already heard. I've been in contact with a few vendors (including HID-ONLINE.com) and it seems as though the USA has had enough of you NUMBNUTS (you know who you are) that are causing glare to other motorists that they are not only making the USE of these kits illegal (which was already the case) but are also threatening to IMPOSE A FINE of about $5000/day to ANY vendor selling these in the United States.
Now, you ask how they can do this?
Well, they are using a loophole apparently. NHTSA is saying that the HID retrofit kits are NON-COMPLIANT b/c they "do not have a filament" (pertaining to replacing your halogen/filament lights).
Now, there are plenty of threads regarding this in some other lighting forums but I'll just start by giving you guys some documentation sites and ALSO a place where I think we can petition to save this.
This is an exerpt from hidforum.com which tells a short story about how this is going down...
_ "However, the agency's Office of Vehicle Safety Compliance (OVSC) has 
recently initiated several investigations with potential manufacturers, 
distributors, and retailers of HID conversion light sources and kits. 
OVSC asked several questions relative to the compliance of that 
equipment with the Federal safety standards and informed those parties of 
their responsibilities under Federal law. Manufacturer responses to OVSC's 
inquiries are due no later than August 15, 2003. Although the agency 
does list information relative to its investigations on the web at 
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/...thly/, it typically 
requires some time before the web page is updated.
If you require additional information relative to these inquiries, 
please feel free to contact me directly at 202-XXX-XXXX.
Regards.
Mike Cole
Safety Compliance Engineer
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Office of Vehicle Safety Compliance
Mail Code: NVS-222, Room 6111
400 7th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20590
(202) xxx-xxxx (voice)
(202) xxx-xxxx (fax) 
========================================

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa....html
HID-Online's affirmation:
Al
You are correct with regards the legislation.
The price you see is what you pay and includes 48 hours shipping (UPS)
directly to your home address, regardless of country or Zip code
Thank you for choosing to visit http://HID-Online.com  
Janet
Sales
HID-Online.com
Telephone: +44 (0) 1244 881961"_
Some more reading: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/....html 
http://www.network54.com/Hide/...78078
* AND MORE:* 
NHTSA Targeting Glare From Front Mounted Lamps(2001)
http://www.4x4wire.com/access/...s.htm
-
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
49 CFR Part 571
[Docket No. 01-8885; Notice 01]
RIN 2127-AH81
Glare from Headlamps and other Front Mounted Lamps
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108; 
Lamps, Reflective Devices, and Associated Equipment
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/....html
-
Blinded by the light
http://www.consumerreports.org...13261

Protest the above-mentioned docket number here:
http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/ProcSubmission.asp 
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa....html 
I have an email from Nick at autolamps-online.com (HID-ONLINE.COM) and he has mentioned this as well.
Whether it happens or not is another thing but it seems that the NHTSA is VERY SERIOUS regarding this issue.
Why is this happening?
GLARE. Need I say where this "GLARE" is coming from?
It's coming from the dude that came on to the lighting forum here and asked whether he should put 55W HID ballasts with 6000K bulbs in his Jetta 4 N/A spec lights. Guys like him 100X's over and the NHTSA gets plenty of complaints.
You guys may not be getting "flashed" (most common sentence here) but those same ppl are either emailing DOT/NHTSA or calling them.
If you want to order I'd suggest saving a bit more money as ordering from an overseas source could get quite expensive. Nick went over it with me via email and let's just say it gets quite pricey.
Some manufacturers have ALREADY ceased selling HID kits as a caution. 8/15 is the date for vendors to come into "compliance" before fines are imposed.
Will they actually fine? Who knows? But at $5000/day nobody is going to find out.
Is this a new law? I don't think so.
From the sounds of it they have decided to enforce an existing law. I'd like to find exactly which law it is...maybe tucked into one of the links above is a copy of it.
Sorry for the bad news guys...

Later,
EDIT:
Seems I lost my sticky and was ripped off







...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=956206 

_Modified by nater at 6:35 AM 7-29-2003_
*More from Daniel Stern (bimmer.roadfly forums)* (dated 8.14)
_"I spoke today with the man at NHTSA in charge of vehicle lighting compliance. Here, in summary form, is what he has to say: 
Despite rumors of 8/15 and 8/23 being "enforcement dates", there is no such enforcement date. NHTSA sent letters to importers and distributors of HID "retrofit" kits that required response by either 8/15 or 8/23 (two batches of letters were sent out.) Basically, these letters were requests for documentation of the "retrofit" kits' compliance with all applicable Federal requirements. Since the Federal requirements are justifiably and properly written such that an HID bulb based to fit in place of a halogen lamp cannot possibly comply, the letters were simply a formality preparatory to the doling out of civil penalties (which will be large and non-negotiable) and requirement for recall of all noncomplying equipment (which will be mandatory and non-negotiable from the vendor's standpoint, but NHTSA has no authority to force end users to abide by a recall.) This is not a one-time deal, either -- it is only the beginning. In addition to the eight pending noncompliance civil penalty/recall enforcement actions currently under way, a great many more are being prepared for subsequent action. Petitions are irrelevant; it is a waste of time to create or sign them. These things *ARE* illegal, and their distribution and sale *IS* being cracked down upon. 
These enforcement actions are not now, and are not planned to be aimed at HID headlamps designed from the start as HID headlamps. That doesn't mean European-specification HID headlamps will be legal, but it does mean that a company is free to market a headlamp system incorporating HID low and/or high beams to replace a headlamp system incorporating halogen low and/or high beams, as long as the headlamp system complies with all applicable requirements of all applicable Federal regulations. 
Above is from NHTSA. Below is my commentary: 
As always, vehicles in use and their owners are under the jurisdiction of the state in which they're registered, not the Federal government. The Feds, therefore, cannot swoop down on vehicle owners and take away their HID "retrofitted" headlamps, but the State or any of its agents (cops) can. Now is not a good time to be involved in the importation, introduction into interstate commerce, distribution, sale or installation for consideration of HID "retrofit" kits. 
Hope this helps clear things up. 
DS_ "
Good stuff, ey? 
Later,


_Modified by nater at 9:29 AM 8-18-2003_


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

I'm going away for the weekend and I know this thread will be quite long by then...
I'll look for the petition against this if I can find it...

Later,


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

They have already fined APC for the HID retros already


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## bergenvr6 (Jan 22, 2002)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (converted_vw)*

OEM HIDs are still okay though, right?


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## ZeRo_C0oL (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (bergenvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bergenvr6* »_OEM HIDs are still okay though, right?

I'd imagine so. It's not like they can fine you for HID's that came from the factory on a car. Like other things, I heard of a B5.5 Passat being pulled over for aftermarket "euro tail-lights," when in fact they were stock. 
Argh, I knew this was going to happen. If you're going to mod something, do it right, not half-way.


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (ZeRo_C0oL)*

My HIDs are for sale. They are OEM when you get right down to it and use DOT approved D2S HID bulbs.


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## ichiroboston (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

can they sell them with "off road use only"...etc?
Ichiro


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (ichiroboston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ichiroboston* »_can they sell them with "off road use only"...etc?

That should get them around it. As with most items, they are sold "FOR OFF-ROAD USE ONLY".


_Modified by Bora20 at 10:38 PM 7-25-2003_


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## jays vdub (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (converted_vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *converted_vw* »_They have already fined APC for the HID retros already

figures, but seriously this is going to suck but i did find out that in ri from what i understand is that if you want to use hids, they must have the motor to basicly straighten them out (ie going over hills and that sort of thing) but this is from what i hear


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## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (jays vdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jays vdub* »_from what i understand is that if you want to use hids, they must have the motor to basicly straighten them out

And most people installing retrofit kits do not install the adjustment motors because of the additional hassle. I'm installing halogen e-codes and including the motors in the installation, but I fear I am in the minority. Still, I'm doing it right because I feel, well, it's right.


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## jays vdub (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Buran)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Buran* »_
And most people installing retrofit kits do not install the adjustment motors because of the additional hassle. I'm installing halogen e-codes and including the motors in the installation, but I fear I am in the minority. Still, I'm doing it right because I feel, well, it's right.

ah that is the name of it i belive the one i have sitting here have them if not i will have to figure something out


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (converted_vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *converted_vw* »_They have already fined APC for the HID retros already

From my understanding the APC fines were for projector housings not meeting DOT specs. 
Later,


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (ichiroboston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ichiroboston* »_can they sell them with "off road use only"...etc?
Ichiro

Don't be confused here, guys...
There already is "for off road use only" disclaimers on EVERY HID retrofit box (as with most performance chips, cams, injectors, etc...).
This BAN is different.
A retailer can "get around" selling this illegal stuff by putting "for off road use only" on the box but they are now talking about banning ALL SALES of the product no matter if it says "for off road use only" or not.
Nick Cotiss may jump in on this one (but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't want to jump the gun on anything just yet) but it's pretty serious.
You guys are looking at having a non-existant market of retrofit HID kits for cars now...I guess, maybe even a "black market" for this stuff.
Now, this is just going to make the blue (aka, dipped xenon) bulb more common which will only create more and more glare...oh well.

Later,


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

What about the Hella retrofit HOD lights Nate? They going to be banned in the US as well?
If so, the US really needs to get off their ass and join the 21st century. The big 3 don't run the automotive world anymore.
REVOLT and bring me HIDs and diesel


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_What about the Hella retrofit HOD lights Nate? They going to be banned in the US as well?
If so, the US really needs to get off their ass and join the 21st century. The big 3 don't run the automotive world anymore.
REVOLT and bring me HIDs and diesel









I don't know, Dan. All I know is what I am reading and it doesn't say anything about that.
The US dot is on the verge of a revolutionary re-vamping of their lighting regulations. How soon? I'm not sure. Will we be anything like ECE??? I hope.
Sucks..
later,


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

By the way, guys...
I'm doing a bit of research on this and will be posting up as often as possible to let everybody know what's up with this.
Later,


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## Nameci (May 30, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

you would think HID-online would be trying to get rid of theirs for a cheaper price, but still way too much.


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## GS Audio (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Nameci)*

I can't believe the US government is even tackling a measly issue like this.








[sarcasm]"Let's get that 2% of the population buying HID retro kits....we'll fine the vendors trying to make a buck, eventually tickets all those kids using those lights too......let those thieves continue to steal Maxima OEM HID's and let them continue stealing cars."[/sarcasm]

































































My brief political comment: This is why this country is going downhill!
Back on topic.......
The glare is definitely an issue and I'm sure some assemblyman or other high up government official must have been affected by this. Half the time, that's the ONLY reason why anything gets done.......cause it affects the actual person, not for the good of the people.
Sorry Nate, guess its ALL politics!








Hope this roadblock can be passed......LEGALLY! 
Later!


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## 1781cc (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (GS Audio)*

Well this is completely typical of the USDOT. I completely agree with you, GS. Of course a way will (hopefully) soon be found to get around this. But I like how quality lighting kits are completely banned (Philips, Hella), but ****ty lighting/product companies as a whole (APC!!) get little fines.











































USDOT http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (1984cc)*

*PEOPLE!!* please do NOT mixup QUALITY product as in how well they last or perform with the fact that the RETROFITTING kits are NOT used in the correct setup!
This was clearly stated at LAST YEARS SEMA show by NHTSA that they will crack down on this!
Now what NEEDS to be done is CLEAR LAWS that can be enforced with yearly checkups, this way there would not be a demand for NON STREETLEGAL products.


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_HID-Online's affirmation:
Al
You are correct with regards the legislation.
The price you see is what you pay and includes 48 hours shipping (UPS)
directly to your home address, regardless of country or Zip code
Thank you for choosing to visit http://HID-Online.com  
Janet
Sales
HID-Online.com
Telephone: +44 (0) 1244 881961"



With HID-Online.com their business is NOT LOCATED IN the USA so it is more up to the customer than the retailer...


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (bergenvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bergenvr6* »_OEM HIDs are still okay though, right?

They were (are?) at risk too due to:
A) HIGH amount of HID (retros!) with GLARE
B) The way outdated DOT spec beampattern (especially with HIDS!!)


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (jays vdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jays vdub* »_
what i understand is that if you want to use hids, they must have the motor to basicly straighten them out (ie going over hills and that sort of thing) but this is from what i hear









This is ONLY IN EUROPE!


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_
From my understanding the APC fines were for projector housings not meeting DOT specs. 
Later,


Yes this was the last BIG RAID by DOT!


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_What about the Hella retrofit HOD lights Nate? They going to be banned in the US as well?
If so, the US really needs to get off their ass and join the 21st century. The big 3 don't run the automotive world anymore.
REVOLT and bring me HIDs and diesel









PLEASE define what you mean by HELLA RETROFIT??
Beacuase:
A) Hella does NOT make a "drop-in" kit though alot of DROP-IN kits use the Hella/Philips ballasts!
B) The Golf /Jetta (Bora) use Bosch kits
C) Not aware that Hella would offer a retro for the B5/B5.5 Passat?
D) The HIDs for the lower bumper are 
1) High beam which are ok in the US! 
2) Approved by SAE/DOT 3) not really a "retro fit"


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Nameci)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nameci* »_you would think HID-online would be trying to get rid of theirs for a cheaper price, but still way too much.

Why? They are offering the ONLY ALL EUROPEAN kit vs. all TW and KR kits!!


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## GS Audio (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Cullen)*

Cullen, so HID-Online will STILL be able to supply the US market as long as they sign and send back the disclaimer?
If so, that's great!!!


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (GS Audio)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GS Audio* »_Cullen, so HID-Online will STILL be able to supply the US market as long as they sign and send back the disclaimer?
If so, that's great!!!









gs, IM me...I've received an email from nick at autolamps discussing this.
It's more complicated than just signing a waiver and paying the same price.
It is. I've gone thru this with him.

Later,


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (1984cc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1984cc* »_ but ****ty lighting/product companies as a whole (APC!!) get little fines.











































USDOT http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Not really a little fine that APC got...I mean, I guess it is little to THEM. But generally speaking I'm pretty sure the DOT hasn't handed out a fine that large in a LONG LONG time (if ever).
It's not that Philips/Hella/Osram are not good companies...it's ppl buying those QUALITY products and installing them in sub-quality headlight housings which are going to hurt ppl that sell quality HID retros.
Me personally, I don't care as much b/c I've got OEM stuff and would only plan on going OEM anyway. But for those that wanted to do Ian's shield mod on the HDR's and use a rebased H1 bulb with HID those good ppl with good intentions are getting screwed.
Later,


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Cullen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cullen* »_
PLEASE define what you mean by HELLA RETROFIT??
Beacuase:
A) Hella does NOT make a "drop-in" kit though alot of DROP-IN kits use the Hella/Philips ballasts!
B) The Golf /Jetta (Bora) use Bosch kits
C) Not aware that Hella would offer a retro for the B5/B5.5 Passat?
D) The HIDs for the lower bumper are 
1) High beam which are ok in the US! 
2) Approved by SAE/DOT 3) not really a "retro fit"

Sorry for the confusion Cullen. What i meant was the actual HID headlight retrofit that Hella makes to replace the Golf 4 headlights. The one using the actual D2S bulbs, HID projector, headlight washers, and dynamic levelling feature.
I am completely against the regular HID retrofit kits that use a rebased bulb. Just take a look at my HIDs that I have for sale. Audi HID projectors using actual HID bulbs with DOT stamps.
As Cullen said before, the DOT does not require automatic headlight levelling and headlight washers for HID lights. This is how Acura and the domestics get away with doing it cheaply.


_Modified by Bora20 at 4:54 PM 7-28-2003_


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_
Sorry for the confusion Cullen. What i meant was the actual HID headlight retrofit that Hella makes to replace the Golf 4 headlights. The one using the actual D2S bulbs, HID projector, headlight washers, and dynamic levelling feature.

Well AFAIK since Hella USA is NOT offering this kit currently it is a EUROSPEC kit *BUT* could EASILY be transformed since the units found inside the kit are also available as SAE/DOT units (yes not as nice performance but STREETLEGAL!)

_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_I am completely against the regular HID retrofit kits that use a rebased bulb. Just take a look at my HIDs that I have for sale. Audi HID projectors using actual HID bulbs with DOT stamps.


I am divided on this issue (drop-ins), I never try to state anything but that:
A) they will never perform as OEMs
B) They are NOT streetlegal in ANY COUNTRY! 
...but at the same time I know I was not creating any issues, in fact my car went through EUropean inspection...becuase 1) I had it in projectors and 2) it was E-codes hense the SHARP cut off!
But yes I did go for the OEM projectors with OUTPERFORM the drop in setup I had before, but again still it would be a long way to PROVE this OEM setup to be streetlegal though theoritcally it SHOULD be considered as such if you use DOT approved projectors and the lens was CLEAR in front of them!

_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_
As Cullen said before, the DOT does not require automatic headlight levelling and headlight washers for HID lights. This is how Acura and the domestics get away with doing it cheaply.

Some manufactures have optioned to leave it ON the US spec cars though which creates confusion in what is required and not out there, I think the NEW MINI has adjusters for instance.


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Cullen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cullen* »_
Some manufactures have optioned to leave it ON the US spec cars though which creates confusion in what is required and not out there, I think the NEW MINI has adjusters for instance.

That is true. I think most if not all of the European car makers have decided to leave the auto levelling and headlight washers as standard kit with the HID lights. They must feel that it is safer to have the levelling and washers, which it is.
Japanese manufacturer's usually don't add extra saftey features unless they have to. Case in point: Honda didn't make passenger airbags standard until 1995, when they were made to install them by the DOT or other governing body.
Just goes to show they build cars to make profits, not build cars to keep their occupants safe.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

http://fmvss108.tripod.com/fmvss108text.htm 
This is the full text of the FMVSS standard (#108) which is what *EVERY* HID retrofit kit must adhere to from 8/15/03 on.
Read through it and you will see there is PLENTY of wording here that will make every HID retrofit illegal for sale. 
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/....html 
The above-mentioned link is that of a letter which describes why an aftermarket automotive "accessory" cannot be claimed as "off road use only".
Good reading.
And finally, a copy of a POST from * Daniel Stern* (Roadfly forums) regarding this "crack down" on HID retrofits...
_ "There's a lot of handwringing going on, and there's a lot of poor-quality information getting tossed around in the wake of the announcement that the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA, the agency under DOT charged with setting and enforcing auto safety standards) is cracking down on the importation and sale of HID "retrofit" kits. 
First off, yes, there are problems -- some of them very large and literally glaring -- with the US vehicle lighting regulations. The minimum performance standards for headlamps are pathetic, precisely-formed beam patterns are allowed but not required, red rear turn signals are still allowed, side turn signal flashers are still not required, do-nothing "fog lamps" are allowed and unregulated, etc. This is not to say there are no shortcomings in the rest-of-world European ECE regulations -- there are, they're just different shortcomings! 
But, contrary to opinion of late, the HID kit crackdown is not occurring because NHTSA's regulations are antiquated. It is not occurring because of a words-based technicality (no filament in an HID burner so HID conversions are automatically out). It is occurring because HID "conversion" kits are, quite simply, the wrong way to do it. 
Undoubtedly, those fascinated by the appearance of an HID headlamp (and others) will disagree, but here are the physical facts of the matter: 
These products mainly consist of an HID ballast and bulb for "retrofitting" into a halogen headlamp. Often, these products are advertised using the name of a reputable lighting company ("Real Philips kit! Real Osram kit!") to try to give the potential buyer the illusion of security. While some of the components in these kits are sometimes made by the companies mentioned, the components aren't being put to their designed or intended use. Reputable companies like Philips, Osram, Hella, etc. NEVER endorse this kind of "retrofit" usage of their products. Other "retrofits" come from companies generally known for lighting dreck and schlock -- LED-wafer-on-a-bulb-base "retrofits", cheesy little foggy lites, etc. No matter...the problem with HID retrofits isn't a build-quality constraint; it's an optical-physics constraint. 
Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to 
produce a safe and effective -- not to mention legal anywhere in the world -- beam pattern. How come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of light source. 
A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source -- the glowing filament. The space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark, and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of the cylinder of light. The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright to dark. An HID bulb has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of the crescent of light. 
When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the 
characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses -- they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly. 
Now, what about those "retrofits" in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't fall into the trap of trying to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff! In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun -- whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light (under the cutoff). And, as with all other automotive lamops (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, etc. 
There are more "gotchyas" when pondering halogen-to-HID "retrofits". The only available arc capsules have an axial (fore and aft) arc, but many popular halogen headlamp bulbs, such as 9004, 9007, H3 and H12, use a transverse (side-to-side) and/or offset (not directly in line with the central axis of the headlamp reflector) filament, the position and orientation of which is physically impossible to match with a "retrofit" HID capsule. Just because your headlamp might use an axial-filament bulb, though, doesn't mean you've jumped the hurdles -- the laws of optical physics don't bend even for the cleverest marketing department, nor for the catchiest HID "retrofit" kit box. 
The latest gimmick is HID arc capsules set in an electromagnetic base so that they shift up and down or back and forth. These are being marketed as "dual beam" kits that claim to address the loss of high beam with fixed-base "retrofits" in place of dual-filament halogen bulbs. What you wind up with is two poorly-formed beams, at best. The reason the original equipment market has not adopted the movable-capsule designs they've been playing with since the mid 1990s is because of the near-impossibility of controlling the arc position accurately so it winds up in the same position each and every time. There are single-capsule dual-beam systems appearing ("BiXenon", etc.), but these all rely on a movable optical shield, or movable reflector -- the arc capsule always stays in one place. 
The OE engineers have a great deal more money and resources at their 
disposal than the retrofit guys -- if a movable capsule were a practical way to do the job, they'd do it. The "retrofit" kits *certainly* don't address this problem anywhere near satisfaction. And even if they did, remember: Whether a fixed or moving-capsule "retrofit" is contemplated, solving the arc-position problem and calling it good is like going to a hospital with two broken ribs, a sprained ankle and a crushed toe and having the nurse say "Well, you're free to go home now, we've put your ankle in a sling!" Focal length (arc/filament positioning) is ONE issue out of several. 
The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, examining isoscans of the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" reveals *less* distance light, and often an alarming relative minimum where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. When you *think* you can see better than you can, you're *not* safe. 
It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong *impression* of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, *worsening* your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits". 
HID headlamps also require careful weatherproofing and electrical 
shielding because of the high voltages involved. These unsafe "retrofits" make it physically possible to insert an HID bulb where a halogen bulb belongs, but this practice is illegal and dangerous, regardless of claims by these marketers that their systems are "beam pattern corrected" or the fraudulent use of established brand names to try to trick you into thinking the product is legitimate. In order to work correctly and safely, HID headlamps must be designed from the start as HID headlamps. 
The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the 
*entire* headlamp -- that is lens, reflector, bulb...the WHOLE shemozzle-- with optics designed for HID usage. On models for which no complete HID headlamps exist, it IS possible to get clever with 
the growing number of available products, such as Hella's modular 
projectors available in HID or halogen, and fabricate your own brackets and bezels, or to modify an original-equipment halogen headlamp housing to contain optical "guts" designed for HID usage. But just putting an HID bulb where a halogen one belongs is bad news all around. 
And *that*, folks, is why HID kits are getting targetted for enforcement. 
DS"_

Later,


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_
That is true. I think most if not all of the European car makers have decided to leave the auto levelling and headlight washers as standard kit with the HID lights. They must feel that it is safer to have the levelling and washers, which it is.
.

I dont think BMW or MB has it? Maybe Audis does? What about the first VW with DOT HIDs the B5.5 W8?


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## Cullen (Apr 5, 1999)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_ http://fmvss108.tripod.com/fmvss108text.htm 
This is the full text of the FMVSS standard (#108) which is what *EVERY* HID retrofit kit must adhere to from 8/15/03 on.
,


Very informative site but keep in mind it is NOT an official 108 site so there might be some info not 100% up to date or accurate (though so far I havent found any there..)


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Cullen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cullen* »_

Very informative site but keep in mind it is NOT an official 108 site so there might be some info not 100% up to date or accurate (though so far I havent found any there..)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Later,


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Cullen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cullen* »_
I dont think BMW or MB has it? Maybe Audis does? What about the first VW with DOT HIDs the B5.5 W8?

BMW and Audi both have auto-levelling and headlight washers. Our current ML320, past C240, E430, and E320 all had auto-lelvelling and headlight washers.
You can really see the levelling at night when following behind traffic. When you accelerate, the lights lower to compensate for the vehicle squatting in the rear. The same when you brake and the front of the car dives, the headlights aim up. I am not sure about the B5.5 Passat with OEM DOT approved HIDs. 
As well, the optics/headlights in the ML are 'E" marked, they do not say DOT on them at all. Only the bulbs say DOT.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_
As well, the optics/headlights in the ML are 'E" marked, they do not say DOT on them at all. Only the bulbs say DOT.

Do you think this is b/c you are in Canada?
Obviously, in NA they would have to have the DOT stamp on them...
As for your previous comments...I agree. I remember seeing an M3 in the parking garage and when he turned on his lights (car was sitting in the parking lot NOT moving) and the autolevelling device was trying to find the "correct" position for the lights.
Also, was just at the Audi dealer last week (the newer A4's look nice) and all of the A4's I was looking at (1.8t's and 2.8) had the headlight washers on the front bumper.

Later,


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_
Do you think this is b/c you are in Canada?
Obviously, in NA they would have to have the DOT stamp on them...


Nate, you do know that Canada and Mexico are actually part of NA don't you


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## ichiroboston (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*

How does being part of NA has to do with DOT regulations?
I thought DOT is for the United States.. not NA.
Ichiro


_Modified by ichiroboston at 6:13 PM 7-29-2003_


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## desibrainp (Jul 29, 2003)

Hi, 
I am first time user and i have a couple questions ..........If i wanted to do HID conversion what would be the best way.......second if i wanted to go with OEM where could i possibly get that from


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (Bora20)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bora20* »_
Nate, you do know that Canada and Mexico are actually part of NA don't you









heh...mother effer. Super duper brain fart. Yes I do. And now I feel like a total moron.
But still...
I remember hearing that Canada had slightly different standards as far as ecode and DOT stamps???
That's really what I meant when I separated you from North America. Sorry for the idiocy.
Later,


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (ichiroboston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ichiroboston* »_How does being part of NA has to do with DOT regulations?
I thought DOT is for the United States.. not NA.
Ichiro

_Modified by ichiroboston at 6:13 PM 7-29-2003_

It is. And that's what I meant in my statement. I think Dan was just making sure I wasn't totally retarded







.
Later,


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## Bora20 (Feb 13, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_
heh...mother effer. Super duper brain fart. Yes I do. And now I feel like a total moron.
But still...
I remember hearing that Canada had slightly different standards as far as ecode and DOT stamps???
That's really what I meant when I separated you from North America. Sorry for the idiocy.
Later,

Yes, we have slightly different laws. E-Code headlights are legal in Canada, not the US.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

The Daniel Stern article has me worried. Nater, do you reckon he is right?
By doing the HID/Daemon42 conversion, might I believe that I am getting better lighting when in actual fact my lighting is getting worse, particularly in the far view?


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (mdt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mdt* »_The Daniel Stern article has me worried. Nater, do you reckon he is right?
By doing the HID/Daemon42 conversion, might I believe that I am getting better lighting when in actual fact my lighting is getting worse, particularly in the far view?

First off, let me say that PAULO...you have no worries. Don't worry about it.
You are in Canada in the first place, right? It's the US that is cracking down.
And what they are doing now is cracking down on RETAILERS. They've BEEN cracking down on ppl with clear taillights and corner markers for quite some time.
You've got dot-approved OEM HID's on your car. No cop will even know that your car didn't come with them. I mean, he'll think to himself, "damn, that ford focus came with HID's?" and may pull you over but don't worry about it.
Show him the DOT stamp and tell him this car (SVT) has it as an option and that you just have that option. Cops cannot pull somebody over for have perfect dot approved HID's. They need probably cause. Your lamps (I've seen them in action) are nice. Don't worry.
Matt,
Daniel Stern makes MANY good points. The guy is smart! Generally speaking he's talking about when you go to HID you should switch out the optics (incl lens, projector, entire headlight, etc...) and that the entire headlight effects the output. He is correct. Cutoff is important but he's saying it's the beam beneath the cutoff which is equally as important. I agree. A splotchy beam (which I've seen the HDR's can give off) may be an issue. I just don't know. Or you can install the OEM projectors in it and be even better off. But keep in mind, by switching out the projectors to a dot approved (or even ece approved) projector should pretty much guarantee that your beam is "legit". At least enough so that there is no more glare than anybody elses OEM HID's. 
The one thing left on the HDR's that *may* cause a problem would be the outer low beam glass...it's got some lines on it (also on the outer edges) which could send a bit of light out where it's not needed with HID's.
Remember, that was designed with Halogen in mind. I'm still working on finding some clear lenses for that setup. 
I think you'll be ok there too.
I think it's the retailers that are in more trouble right now.

Later,


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

Thanks for that Nater. BTW do you have those pics of the best place to mount the ballasts in the MkIII?
Cheers mate,


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## GS Audio (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

Also, I got a bad feeling that this BAN will also escalate the already BAD situation that exists with people getting their OEM HID's stolen. My neighbor got his Nissan Maxima headlights with HID's stolen for the second time Monday night in 3 weeks!!!








When will this stop!!!


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## KOG (Mar 5, 2003)

thats crazy


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## GS Audio (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

Check this out as well.......it could cause a rise in HID theft on ALL cars if this crap goes down on 8/15......















http://nydailynews.com/front/s....html


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## bergenvr6 (Jan 22, 2002)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (GS Audio)*

has anyone with VW OEM HIDs had them stolen ??


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (bergenvr6)*

Bump...

Later,


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: HID retrofits to be BANNED for sale in USA soon!!! This is serious! (nater)*

EDIT: ?
Later,


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Bump


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## Red GTi VR6 (Mar 5, 2002)

This may have already been posted but I thought I would post it anyways..
http://www.petitiononline.com/....html?
sign the petition to prevent them from being banned...!


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## Red GTi VR6 (Mar 5, 2002)

so....why is it that the first few links in the original post to the govt. sites are no longer up?
anyone else have this problem?


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (Red GTi VR6)*

Here's some good stuff I found at the bimmer.roadfly forums...
From Daniel Stern (direct cut and paste from his post):
_Message Title: NHTSA news from the horse's mouth 
Posted by: Daniel J. Stern on 2003-08-12 at 19:04:24 (283 views) (378 thread views)
(posted from: Host: hse-kingston-ppp193624.sympatico.ca IP: 64.229.9.227) 
Message: 
"I spoke today with the man at NHTSA in charge of vehicle lighting compliance. Here, in summary form, is what he has to say: 
Despite rumors of 8/15 and 8/23 being "enforcement dates", there is no such enforcement date. NHTSA sent letters to importers and distributors of HID "retrofit" kits that required response by either 8/15 or 8/23 (two batches of letters were sent out.) Basically, these letters were requests for documentation of the "retrofit" kits' compliance with all applicable Federal requirements. Since the Federal requirements are justifiably and properly written such that an HID bulb based to fit in place of a halogen lamp cannot possibly comply, the letters were simply a formality preparatory to the doling out of civil penalties (which will be large and non-negotiable) and requirement for recall of all noncomplying equipment (which will be mandatory and non-negotiable from the vendor's standpoint, but NHTSA has no authority to force end users to abide by a recall.) This is not a one-time deal, either -- it is only the beginning. In addition to the eight pending noncompliance civil penalty/recall enforcement actions currently under way, a great many more are being prepared for subsequent action. Petitions are irrelevant; it is a waste of time to create or sign them. These things *ARE* illegal, and their distribution and sale *IS* being cracked down upon. 
These enforcement actions are not now, and are not planned to be aimed at HID headlamps designed from the start as HID headlamps. That doesn't mean European-specification HID headlamps will be legal, but it does mean that a company is free to market a headlamp system incorporating HID low and/or high beams to replace a headlamp system incorporating halogen low and/or high beams, as long as the headlamp system complies with all applicable requirements of all applicable Federal regulations. 
Above is from NHTSA. Below is my commentary: 
As always, vehicles in use and their owners are under the jurisdiction of the state in which they're registered, not the Federal government. The Feds, therefore, cannot swoop down on vehicle owners and take away their HID "retrofitted" headlamps, but the State or any of its agents (cops) can. Now is not a good time to be involved in the importation, introduction into interstate commerce, distribution, sale or installation for consideration of HID "retrofit" kits. 
Hope this helps clear things up. 
DS"
_ 
Later,


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