# Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

Let's focus it all here rather then spam the whole board.
This is from a guy who will defend the MkV .:R to the bitter end.
Why do YOU think the Routan isn't a real VW... conversely, why do you think it is?
1) No VW drive-train
2) No VW interior styling
3) No VW exterior styling outside of a front end and hatch re-design of an already produced mini-van
4) On board computers are not VAG (that means no vag-com kiddies)
5) Not built in a VW facility
6) No VW engineers were involved in any of its mechanical design
Basically I'm of the opinion VW is taking a Chrysler, badging it VW and calling it a day... It's a sad time for VW. Not only are they compromising their breed purity but they're doing so with one of the worse car companies around.
/rant off.


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*

Here are other VW's that are not VWs








-Logus is a Ford
-Pointer is a Ford
-K70 is a NSU
-Taro is a Toyota
-Caddy Type 9U is a Skoda
-Dodge 1500 is a Hillman
-Some of the old Brazilian Heavy Trucks are really Fords and Chryslers. 

I agree it is a rebadge but if it sells and profits then gen 2 will be all VW.


_Modified by phaeton at 10:25 AM 2-9-2008_


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_Let's focus it all here rather then spam the whole board.....

Thank you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_...This is from a guy who will defend the MkV .:R to the bitter end.....

I will defend *ANY VW*, not just the MkV, to the bitter end. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_...Why do YOU think the Routan isn't a real VW... conversely, why do you think it is?
1) No VW drive-train
2) No VW interior styling
3) No VW exterior styling outside of a front end and hatch re-design of an already produced mini-van
4) On board computers are not VAG (that means no vag-com kiddies)
5) Not built in a VW facility
6) No VW engineers were involved in any of its mechanical design
.....

1. In the minivan category, the drivetrain really doesn't matter. Case in point, the Kia Sedona has a better drivetrain _feel_ than the Odyssey and Sienna. Go figure.
2. Interior is not styled by VW? Have you seen the interior in person? Besides the obvious bits and pieces (A/C, DVD, dash cluster, etc. ) that would make the Routan cost-prohibitive, which part of the interior isn't style by VW?
3. You are kidding about the exterior? Please tell me you are kidding? Remember, we aren't talking about the EV. That group has clearly ostracized the Routan as not being a real vehicle.







Take all current minivans, chop off the front and rear clips. Then, tell me which is which...
4. On board computers? Again, just like the drivetrain issue in number 1, this issue doesn't really matter. Unless, _YOU_ plan on driving the Routan, I don't think it matters at all. Let me guess, you want a Euro switch so that you can disable the DRLs but still drive with your fogs?
5. No VW facility? You aren't saying you'd prefer that the Routan were built in Wolfsburg or Emden? So we can have the MSRP start at $49,999?







I hope you meant a VW facility in the US...Hopefully that will happen soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
6. No VW engineers involved in *any* of the Routan's mechanical design? *For the Routan's first iteration, I'll cut VW some slack*. And besides, I'm sure the VW employee's that designed the interior consider themselves to be engineers. So.......









_Quote, originally posted by *phaeton* »_
I agree it is a rebadge but if it sells and profits then gen 2 will be all VW.



_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_......Basically I'm of the opinion VW is taking a Chrysler, badging it VW and calling it a day... It's a sad time for VW. Not only are they compromising their breed purity but they're doing so with one of the worse car companies around.
/rant off.

I'm not sure if you are in the market for the Routan, but I applaud you for your passion. You obviously care about VW or else you wouldn't be on Vortex......I think?







.
_You_ are that guy that bleeds VW. _You_ are that guy that your co-workers and family members go to for advice. _You_ are that guy that VW is hoping will be open-minded to the Routan. _You_ are that guy that VW is hoping will continue to be an Apostle for the brand. _You_ are that guy that VW hopes will persuade a friend, acquaintance, co-worker, family member, etc. to, at the very least, _look at _and test drive the new Routan.
I urge you to try to see this as a positive move on VW's part to *stay* in the North American market.
The more cars VW sells (with a profit margin that might actually yield a ....<choke>... _profit_, the more money the company makes. The more money the company makes, the better the chance of them staying in North America. Staying in this country and making a profit might mean we actually get those cars the MKV and the Vans and Transporter forums keeps screaming for. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
As for the Routan, my wife might hit it!!










_Modified by jsmyle1%@vw at 7:37 PM 2-8-2008_


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## AzBarber (Jun 2, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (phaeton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phaeton* »_Here are other VW's that are not VWs








-Caddy Type 9U is a Skoda


Isn't Skoda owned by VW?
Az


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (AzBarber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AzBarber* »_
Isn't Skoda owned by VW?
Az

Yep but this was an inherited model from pre VW days but re-enhanced by VW so its a little rebadge.


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## Talareno (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (phaeton)*

I'm finally getting to the end of my tolerance w/ all the things VW does in America. Badge engineering has gone on forever, nothing new there, still remember Ford Lasers & Telstars being rebadged Mazdas while living in SE Asia in the early 80's. But I knew I would eventually return to the US & a VW was the car I would get... and I did, several of them. I'm sure this van is perfectly competent but it will always be a Chrysler despite any PR spin VW will give. My sister swore off VW's after her 89 Jetta (bought new) gave her so much trouble (some caused by incompentent VW dealer service depts) & she never knew if her same dealer would be there next week; and I'm hesitating in finding a used VW for my 19-year old niece (her parents are paying, I'm just the middleman) & she's a perfect candidate for one. VW has to do in the States what they do best, sell affordable european-styled/driving vehicles & leave bland/numb designs to Toyota & not buy 2nd rate minivans from Chrysler; improve your sorry dealer network (don't get me started) & design/manufacture/buy reliable parts. Don't make me buy a BMW 1 Series (too late I think)!!!


_Modified by Talareno at 12:04 AM 2-9-2008_


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## D Clymer (Feb 18, 1999)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (Talareno)*

There's nothing second rate about the new Chrysler vans. The refinement and solidity is equivalent to the Honda and Toyota vans. Contrary to what people have been saying, the 4.0 V6 is not a pushrod engine and it is mated to a 6 speed automatic. 

VW has basically taken a very good product and redesigned the front and rear clips so that it is better looking than the Chryslers it is based upon. They have successfully created the same interior ambiance that you'd expect from the new Passat and Eos. 
I am a hard core VW/Audi enthusiast, but I am in favor of the Routan.


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

i saw it, and i ran away from the VW section of the auto show


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: (71DubBugBug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *71DubBugBug* »_i saw it, and i ran away from the VW section of the auto show 

What section of the auto show did you run to?


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (jsmyle1%@vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsmyle1%@vw* »_1. In the minivan category, the drivetrain really doesn't matter. Case in point, the Kia Sedona has a better drivetrain _feel_ than the Odyssey and Sienna. Go figure.

Drive trains always matter. Power, control and efficiency are things that I personally take into account when purchasing a car. But yes, glad VW did its research and came up with, "The Kia Sedona drives ok, so we can do whatever we want."

_Quote »_2. Interior is not styled by VW? Have you seen the interior in person? Besides the obvious bits and pieces (A/C, DVD, dash cluster, etc. ) that would make the Routan cost-prohibitive, which part of the interior isn't style by VW?

The whole look and feel is different than everything else VW is putting out, I don't need to see it in person. Like that gauge cluster and the aforementioned other parts. Why would this be cost prohibitive? Oh that's right, cause it's not a VW, it's a Chrysler and thus, made in a Chrysler factory so they should use Chrysler parts. But yet... designed by VW right?

_Quote »_3. You are kidding about the exterior? Please tell me you are kidding? Remember, we aren't talking about the EV. That group has clearly ostracized the Routan as not being a real vehicle.







Take all current minivans, chop off the front and rear clips. Then, tell me which is which...

So because it's the status quo, it not being VW is supposed to make us believe it's ok to be sold as a VW?

_Quote »_4. On board computers? Again, just like the drivetrain issue in number 1, this issue doesn't really matter. Unless, _YOU_ plan on driving the Routan, I don't think it matters at all. Let me guess, you want a Euro switch so that you can disable the DRLs but still drive with your fogs?

Actually, I would drive the Routan if it was a real VW mini-van and not a re-badged pos Chrysler. I'm married, I have a baby and another one coming soon. But thanks for playing.. now to address the rest of this.
Yes, I want to be able to control some of the things you're talking about. I also want to be able to mate up with new things that VW puts out, like nav's and and the like. You can belittle it all you want, but it's yet ANOTHER thing that makes this not a VW.

_Quote »_5. No VW facility? You aren't saying you'd prefer that the Routan were built in Wolfsburg or Emden? So we can have the MSRP start at $49,999?







I hope you meant a VW facility in the US...Hopefully that will happen soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'd prefer my cars be made in a factory run by people who know how to make cars, not run by people who have had their car company sold out from underneath them several times in several years. Perhaps the VW brand hasn't been doin all to well in the US and they have that Porsche thing going on, but I think we'd all agree it's vastly different than what is going on at Chrysler.

_Quote »_6. No VW engineers involved in *any* of the Routan's mechanical design? *For the Routan's first iteration, I'll cut VW some slack*. And besides, I'm sure the VW employee's that designed the interior consider themselves to be engineers. So.......









Where's the twin-charged DSG model? Where's the diesel? Where's the dozens of other things that are availible on pretty much every VW today like ESP and the like? Sure in some cases their may be somewhat reasonable alternatives, but they're not things that make VW unique from other cars out there today.

_Quote »__You_ are that guy that bleeds VW. _You_ are that guy that your co-workers and family members go to for advice. _You_ are that guy that VW is hoping will be open-minded to the Routan. _You_ are that guy that VW is hoping will continue to be an Apostle for the brand. _You_ are that guy that VW hopes will persuade a friend, acquaintance, co-worker, family member, etc. to, at the very least, _look at _and test drive the new Routan.

I could be considered one of those guys. I'll tell people who ask me about the Routan that they're buying a Chrysler. Cause, they are. I'm not an apostle. I'm an enthusiast. If I go out and "evangelize" people to all the crap that VW throws at me, there better be a pay check involved (I'm availible via PM to discuss the aforementioned pay check)

_Quote »_I urge you to try to see this as a positive move on VW's part to *stay* in the North American market.

And I urge VW to stop this nonsense. Maybe it'll work, maybe VW will squeak out a profit and maybe it'll help save the brand in the US. Maybe slavery helped us win the revolutionary war against the British. I'll look back on it the same way, I'm happy with the outcome, but not entirely happy as to how we got there...
...assuming in the end the VW line isn't further tainted by re-badged crap.

Bottom line? Maybe if this was really a joint effort. Perhaps if there was a VW drive train, or other VW technologies built into this thing, myself and others would be less likely to criticize. But let's face it... this thing is a re-badged Chrysler with barely enough facelift to somewhat resemble a VW.


_Modified by BumbleBeeJBG at 9:02 AM 2-11-2008_


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*

*"Chicago's Greatest Hits"*
_Strolling through McCormick Place last week, our car guy found a lot more to like than he expected._
Richard Truett 
*AUTOMOTIVE NEWS EUROPE*
February 11, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
_...Looking at the Volkswagen Rou-tan, you can't tell that it has Chrysler genes. This is the snazziest-looking VW van since the ultracool hippie vans of the mid-1960s.
The Routan, which will be built by Chrysler for VW, shares almost none of the Dodge Caravan or Chrysler Town & Country's sheet metal. It has a smoothly styled, sloping front end and wraparound taillights that would look at home on a Passat, Jetta or any other VW. Stefan Jacoby, CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, said the Routan will start at under $25,000 when it goes on sale later this year. VW should sell a lot of them._


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_...Actually, I would drive the Routan if it was a real VW mini-van and not a re-badged pos Chrysler. I'm married, *I have a baby and another one coming soon*. But thanks for playing.. now to address the rest of this.....

Congrats. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (jsmyle1%@vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsmyle1%@vw* »_*"Chicago's Greatest Hits"*
_Strolling through McCormick Place last week, our car guy found a lot more to like than he expected._
Richard Truett 
*AUTOMOTIVE NEWS EUROPE*
February 11, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
_...Looking at the Volkswagen Rou-tan, you can't tell that it has Chrysler genes. This is the snazziest-looking VW van since the ultracool hippie vans of the mid-1960s.
The Routan, which will be built by Chrysler for VW, shares almost none of the Dodge Caravan or Chrysler Town & Country's sheet metal. It has a smoothly styled, sloping front end and wraparound taillights that would look at home on a Passat, Jetta or any other VW. Stefan Jacoby, CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, said the Routan will start at under $25,000 when it goes on sale later this year. VW should sell a lot of them._

So? It doesn't contradict anything that I'm saying. I'm saying that this van slightly resembles a VW but is a Chrysler.


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_So? It doesn't contradict anything that I'm saying. I'm saying that this van slightly resembles a VW but is a Chrysler.

Had I _any_ desire to contradict anything you wrote, I would have quoted you and directly responded to you.
Relax!! Geeeeeez........








The Automotive News Europe article excerpt was merely for good unbiased reading. Think you can handle that?
I'm calling a truce. We don't have to agree...... But, it sure appears that I'm more neutral than the right or left wing that you appear to be.


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## OraLabora (May 26, 2006)

So far the vw.ca site doesn't mention a peep about the Routan. Will it be available in Canada? Not that I really care, my minivan days are long over, but just curious if I will get to see this thing in my local showroom.
I would care though if VW imported one of their excellent European vans into Canada, complete with TDI powerplant... but I'd rather a B6 Passat with a TDI.


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_4) On board computers are not VAG (that means no vag-com kiddies)

Quite possible, but unless we've seen and played with one nobody can't say.

_Quote, originally posted by *phaeton* »_-Pointer is a Ford

Are you talking about the VW Pointer which is sold in South America? That is a real VW as far as we know, same chassis as Gol, Parati and Saveiro


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## CAsuperbeetle (Mar 26, 2001)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (jsmyle1%@vw)*

BumbleBeeJBG, gees man, get off your trip and come back to reality. So freakin what. So you despise Chrystler for letting one of their vehicles get improved upon by another comapany.
GROW UP, or have you never taken an economics course in your life? You sound like the general ignorant American fool with the lack of intlleigent research you have obviously NOT done.
Lets see you do any better on a limited resource budget that it would take to produce and ship a comparable German built, German styled, German designed and engineered minivan that would please the majoriy of the American population, since Americans have a varied and different attitude base towards the practicality and styling of a large interior volume vehicle.
I personelly find your arguments soo one sided that I should I had been a moderator, I would have told you to voice your issues on a Chrysler website where they might be impressed that their drab looking squared off design was injected with some personality and verve.
Hush up and drop the one sided argument already. So you despise the van for being too much of something you dont like! We dont need to hear it, so, Quiet, or go spend some time out in the corner of the room.


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (CAsuperbeetle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CAsuperbeetle* »_BumbleBeeJBG, gees man, get off your trip and come back to reality. So freakin what. So you despise Chrystler for letting one of their vehicles get improved upon by another comapany.

I don't despise Chrysler for anything. My charge isn't against Chrysler or VW selling a mini-van. My gripe is VW tainting their purity by simply re-selling something that is beyond the surface, not theirs. This isn't a collaboration between VW and Chrysler to make a better engineered product.

_Quote »_GROW UP, or have you never taken an economics course in your life? You sound like the general ignorant American fool with the lack of intlleigent research you have obviously NOT done.

I've taken plenty of economic classes. I'll try and ignore the rest of your inflamatory bull**** as it just detracts from the issue we're discussing. This has nothing to do with economics, I can see this making money for VW. This has to do with a car company I like doing something I don't like. Like when your favorite sports team moves or the like. Sure it'll be good for them economically but they've just sacrificed a piece of themselves.

_Quote »_Lets see you do any better on a limited resource budget that it would take to produce and ship a comparable German built, German styled, German designed and engineered minivan that would please the majoriy of the American population, since Americans have a varied and different attitude base towards the practicality and styling of a large interior volume vehicle.

I didn't say I could. To me, if they can't do the above, then they just shouldn't do it! Sort of like season 6+ of the X-Files, it just shouldn't be done.

_Quote »_I personelly find your arguments soo one sided that I should I had been a moderator, I would have told you to voice your issues on a Chrysler website where they might be impressed that their drab looking squared off design was injected with some personality and verve.
Hush up and drop the one sided argument already. So you despise the van for being too much of something you dont like! We dont need to hear it, so, Quiet, or go spend some time out in the corner of the room.

You're going to put me in the time out room? Get over yourself buddy. This is a pertinent argument and I am not alone in how I feel. I've tried to consolidate it to one thread so it won't clutter up the whole message board. You're not moderator, so if you don't like this discussion, then just exit.


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## CAsuperbeetle (Mar 26, 2001)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*

Then just stop sounding like a jerk about it... Negativity negativity negativity. Throwing one sided biased complaints around as if its a rain soaked bag of chicken manure isn't a friendly way to express opinions. 
It is a Fine Van. Focus on the positives man. VW made it look a heck of a lot better, and knowing that, it should have a much nicer feel than the Chrystler. With how the Dodge and Chrystler look, any other automaker can improve upon it. 
It is the Small details that count. Like the wrap around black edge of the rear door glass and how it distinctly re-defines the chcaracter of the rear end, and the wheel arch blending, being much smoother than the hard line on the Dodge. I would have preferred the side countout line to be smoother as well to tie into the product line of the other VW cars, but we can only ask for small miracles.
Zoom in on the photos and enjoy the finer details that make the re-design a lot cooler than the Dodge. Before Dodge went retro with their designs, they were doing a lot better. Their details are not properly proportioned and the scale of sections of their cars are unbalanced and poorly intiegrated.
VW fixed the many glaring obtruses that Dodge used. Mainly on the Dashboard, the horizontal heater vents, it ads a horizontal balance. The way the taillights and upper edge bumber wings bring the mass of the rear end into a more sectioned and balanced proportion. The slope of the bottom edge of the side windows continues awesomely into the aggressive stance of the headlights and front end look. Even compare the interior seats, the way the VW material is tucked into seams and more appropriate headrests make them alot more stable a seating surface compared to the pictures I have seen of the Dodge seats.
I know from the distant view, it is easy to see the underlying frame and partial sheetmetal of the Dodge and having that bring to mind their qwirky design ques, but it is the examination of the details that makes it a vast improvment. I dont like that they had to use another vehicle manufactrer for their intial American base for their minivan re-attempt. But hey, it is a lot more dynamic a design change over the Dodge vehicle than I was expecting.
We should be Glad that VW did as much as they did... the Dodge/Chrystler vans are sooo strange looking. 



_Modified by CAsuperbeetle at 8:42 AM 2-14-2008_


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (CAsuperbeetle)*

There is no positive about any of this for me. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. If by some chance it saves VW in America than I will still look back on it as something the brand compromised on.
I'm not attacking you for expressing your opinion even though I think differently, I would appreciate you extending the same curtousy as to further the discussion. Thanks.


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## i81b4u (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*

I think you're just pissed because now you can't say for sure which one holds the title of the original mini-van. hehe


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## JB20TH (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
I don't despise Chrysler for anything. My charge isn't against Chrysler or VW selling a mini-van. My gripe is VW tainting their purity by simply re-selling something that is beyond the surface, not theirs. This isn't a collaboration between VW and Chrysler to make a better engineered product.


I'm just shocked that you used the word "purity" with a VW. It's a VW, a peoples car, not an exotica. What purity are you talking about. I never heard someone use that term when VW took over Lambo. You're upset about a van, why complain about one extra car to chose from? Are you a shareholder? What are you going to lose with this van? People that own Vipers aren't upset that Dodge is known for their vans. You want to talk about a better engineered product, ask people who own a 3.6 Passat and decide how well engineered that car is assuming that it's not in the shop. If you don't like it then don't buy it, but were you even contemplating buying one? The Routan is not what I really wanted either, but it's another option to chose from and that's fine with me.


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (JB20TH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JB20TH* »_I'm just shocked that you used the word "purity" with a VW. It's a VW, a peoples car, not an exotica. What purity are you talking about. I never heard someone use that term when VW took over Lambo. You're upset about a van, why complain about one extra car to chose from? Are you a shareholder? What are you going to lose with this van? .....

You are completely wasting your time......Don't even bother.









_Quote, originally posted by *JB20TH* »_..... If you don't like it then don't buy it, but were you even contemplating buying one? .....

Highly unlikely. But if he was, he'd buy the Chrysler instead because he's a very savvy consumer and the rest of us that actually might buy/lease the Routan are a bunch of idiots that he can't relate to.

_Quote, originally posted by *JB20TH* »_... The Routan is not what I really wanted either, but it's another option to chose from and that's fine with me.

Agreed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The only way the Routan won't be in my driveway at the end of the year is if the leasing program is not comparable to the Odyssey. The program doesn't have to be better. It just needs to be comparable.


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (JB20TH)*

Can we lock this thing? It's turning into me vs. everyone cause the only people coming here are people interested in the Routan and frankly I don't have the time nor the inclination to forever argue about how crappy or not this van is.


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## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_......It's turning into me vs. everyone cause the only people coming here are people interested in the Routan and *frankly I don't have the time nor the inclination to forever argue about how crappy or not this van is*.

That was hilarious!!!!





























You've been watching waaaaay too much of Jack in "A Few Good Men."








I thought we agreed to disagree? And besides, what did you really think was going to happen when you started the thread with that title anyway? And let me get this straight, you are mad because people who actually want the Routan are defending it?








It's all in fun. Don't get so defensive.









_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_Can we lock this thing? ......

Yes......as long as it can be re-opened once the sales numbers (good or bad) start to come in.


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## tex_murphy (Feb 23, 2008)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*

My two cents on this highly entertaining thread.
I used to drive a Honda Odyssey - because it was the best of it class.
I now drive a VW Passat, because for MY needs, it IS the best in its class.
If a person tells me they would never buy a Chrysler, but will consider buying a Routan because of the Badge, then I have some Superfund land for them to buy.
The Routan literally has no VW qualities that makes a VW a VW - not interior styling, no handling characteristics, nothing. If people want to buy the Routan because of the VW tag, go for it - that's just wasting good $$ on a second rate minivan and falls into the category of corporate welfare to me.
I want VW to stay in the US, but I want them to be COMPETITIVE, not lazy. The Routan is just that - Lazy.


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (jsmyle1%@vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsmyle1%@vw* »_You've been watching waaaaay too much of Jack in "A Few Good Men."









It was an intentional reference.


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## oasis (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (jsmyle1%@vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jsmyle1%@vw* »_I will defend *ANY VW*, not just the MkV, to the bitter end. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Big deal. You're an advertiser.
So do I ... We have bought Volkswagens only in our family since 1986. Our daughter, now 17, wanted a VW only. And we obliged. But Volkswagen is making it harder and harder for us commoners who do the plunking of the money down.
The big picture trouble with Volkswagen in recent years is they are turning their collective backs on our collective interests.
I'm not talking about the discontinuation of the classic Beetle, although its discontinuation was needless. How ironic the symbol of the company and from whence it came was then used in a Phaeton commercial and now a 1960s edition is being "interviewed" on present commercials.
When Volkswagen introduced the Concept One, there was hope a modern version of an ultra-stingy counter-culture fuel-miser might be in the works. Instead, VW made (and still makes) the New Beetle which is nothing more than a less practical Golf IV.
I as a Volkswagen diehard fanatic couldn't care less Volkswagen introduced the Phaeton. Since the company gobbled up higher end badges than Audi like Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini, I said "why not" to those who were detractors.
Many VW diehards like myself want a standard transmission. I am fully aware Volkswagen has come a long way with their automatics, but I feel better about driving a car with a stick. So does my wife. So does our daughter.
Too bad if I want to trade in my Cabrio for an Eos with a VR6. Too bad if I want to trade in my Cabrio for the higher end New Beetle convertible. Just as it was too bad when we wanted to trade in our EuroVan on a newer EuroVan, then a Touareg. Sorry chum. Have an automatic. Only.
The trend started even earlier. When buying the Cabrio, the Euro-offering of a TDI was nowhere to be found. If I wanted fog lights and a power top, I _had_ to take the leather seats even though I didn't want them. When buying my wife's Golf TDI, they were so rare that finding one with heated seats, a sunroof and alloy wheels limited our color selection. (I like the Candy White but my wife wanted blue.) Oh, and if we wanted fog lights for the Golf with a TDI, we would have to go aftermarket. Given what is being offered as trade-in possibilities, we may still go that route because it looks like we will be owning that Golf for at least another six years.
The arguments I hear are always the same. Americans don't buy diesels. Americans don't buy sticks. Packaging options together into groups is ... blah blah blah ... insert your excuse/explanation here.
I don't care if automatics are offered. I don't care if gas engines offering no better mileage than Super Beetles were getting 35 years ago were getting are still being offered. But why turn your backs on us who thought of Volkswagens in a certain way?
I would have loved to have gotten a new VW for my daughter. She sees the smaller-than-Golf ... excuse me, Rabbit again (talk about rebadging) ... offerings in Europe and wonders when they will be coming to the states.
"Uh, never, dear. Would you like a 20-year old Fox from Brazil? Mommy's Golf is from Brazil."
"No thanks. How about a third generation Jetta GT?"
That's what she got. Instead.
So I come here to find out about a Routan. I don't really care where it's made. My Cabrio is Mexican. My wife's Golf is Brazilian. My Pickup was American. It had the goofy pull-knobs for the headlights and the diesel version of a choke but it was great. The rest were German I think.
The Chrysler aspect doesn't negate my interest, but it sure doesn't enhance it any. I went to Fiat (of all things) to get away from American companies because I felt they deserted me.
I am posting on this thread because I am not optimistic the Routan is something my wife and I will want ... but we have been vanless for nearly two years. I _want_ to embrace the Routan. I will investigate it further. But I am getting the vibe I am pursuing the prom date who doesn't want anything to do with me.
BumbleBeeJBG posted his thoughts on the alienation by Volkswagen to _his_ interests. His interests are different than mine but his devotion to the Volkswagen brand is similar. And there are many others like him. And there are many others like me.
And scolding us for presenting what we see as a negative as being negative isn't doing a darn thing to change our minds. And telling us to support what is out there will get us something different eventually flies in the face of logic.
Volkswagen dumped the Type 4 (a car with an engine I love by the way) in 1974 because of a general lack of support. The Beetle was amde for decades (and still should be made) because of the undying interest in the car. Its super popularity waned and that led to Passats, Golfs and Jettas regardless of the many international badges they all had throughout their generational evolution.
Telling us a VW-based Routan will come if we support the Chrysler-based one is not only illogical, it can't be trusted at face value. Didn't Volkswagen promise to build the retro-Transporter harkening back to the days of the Type 2 the same way the New Beetle disguises itself as a Type 1? That was an exciting notion that went nowhere.
If the Routan is another yawnfest me-too minivan in the soccer-mom-will-drive-anything tradition, count me out. If necessary, we will get another Vanagon or another EuroVan and dump a whole lot of money into modernizing it sufficiently while it sufficiently gives us what we want.
And if you think I am alone, check the prices of Vanagons with diesels, TDIs, Subaru boxers and Tiico engines on board. People are spending quite a lot of money to _not_ get a new car -- from Volkswagen or anyone else.
And belittling us enthusiasts as being one-sided, negative, disloyal or with any other characterization won't straighten us up as you might hope.


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## KyleCrish (Mar 22, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (D Clymer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D Clymer* »_There's nothing second rate about the new Chrysler vans. The refinement and solidity is equivalent to the Honda and Toyota vans. Contrary to what people have been saying, the 4.0 V6 is not a pushrod engine and it is mated to a 6 speed automatic. 

VW has basically taken a very good product and redesigned the front and rear clips so that it is better looking than the Chryslers it is based upon. They have successfully created the same interior ambiance that you'd expect from the new Passat and Eos. 
I am a hard core VW/Audi enthusiast, but I am in favor of the Routan. 


the interior is absolute crap, and the exterior is nothing special. its equal to any other dodge/chrysler out there i guess you could say. i havent even seen the interior of the routan yet. but i hope to god its better than those other minivans.
my opinion is based on first hand experience while detailing these cars. they are beyond cheap. my old pontiac sunfire felt sturdier.


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## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (KyleCrish)*

Umm, speaking as one that actually sat in a Routan and got to touch it, the interior is *not* crap. Even though it was the auto show mule, the fit & finish was excellent as were all of the interior materials. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by vwbugstuff at 6:19 PM 5-2-2008_


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## KyleCrish (Mar 22, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (vwbugstuff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwbugstuff* »_Umm, speaking as one that actually sat in a Routan and got to touch it, the interior is *not* crap. Even though it was the auto show mule, the fit & finish was excellent as were all of the interior materials. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by vwbugstuff at 6:19 PM 5-2-2008_

i didnt say the routan was crap, i said the dodge and chrysler sister minivans interiors were crap. look at what i quoted before you come in with another comment. but anywho, its good to hear that vw didnt slack on the interior aspect of the car.


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## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (KyleCrish)*

Sorry, it sounded like that because you feel that the Chrysler's interiors are lousy, you were assuming that the VW interiors would be too, just because they will be built on the same assembly line.


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## mopedman (Aug 15, 2005)

What makes a vehicle? If you met someone with a Chrysler Town and Country with VW badges and a few other small bits,what kind of car would you say that was? I think if there is one thing going for Volkswagen it's that the company offers a unique feeling and looking vehicle, this vehicle could bring people to doubt other VW models, as I am sure it will become well known who is producing the vehicle.


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (mopedman)*

Damn, I thought we got pi***d-off in the Transporter Forum. I had to go get popcorn.
My two cents:
- Bottom line: The Routan better have top-notch quality with none of the crap going on like early New Beetles, Passats, many Eurovans, etc. The dealerships had better bend over backwards to take care of in-warranty AND out-of-warranty BS. If it gets out that there are any early problems in this van, give up VW...
- It looks interesting but, given that it is a redone Chrysler, I'm not emotionally psyched about it before it gets here. I admit that I did like the interior of the VW version more than the Chrysler effort. The nose and rear-end are much better than Chrysler's also.
- Yes, I'm one of those that would buy a pop-up T5 with a stick tomorrow if it were on the lot. 
- Production note: For VW to be serious in the US market now, the vehicle has to be made here in an efficient, adaptable plant. This lack of mobility/flexibility killed the Microbus (exchange rates, German labor costs - bad labor contracts, etc.).
The jury is out. We'll see. I'll repeat - and listen up dealers and sales reps: There had better not be ANY problem areas with this van. If your service departments see a trend starting, you had better damn well jump all over it and not run from it. It is put up or shut up time in the US for VW. If not, you can kiss your new sales projections in the US for the next few years good-bye.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong....but nobody will...because I'm not - and we all know it.


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## ALEXBAILEY228 (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*

the could have at least made the interior lights blue, or add the stylish satinless steel interior molding. it doesnt look any different than the chrysler mini van at all really, they could easily thrown in a 2.0t to make the same numbers as the base model and thrown in a 3.2 or 3.6 vr6 for the premium package, both engines are capable of the same amount of power and they will get better gas milage which i think every starting american family would appreciate a van that saves them a little money. they could of changed the styling a little bit so it doesnt look exactly like the chrysler, wheres the sleek streamline look they gave us in the new passat, EOS, and any new vw for that matter. vw got lazy with this one and i dont think it will sell.


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## Tuba_Transport (Jul 4, 2000)

*oh boy*

This has been done before. Remember this doosie?


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## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
...
Bottom line? Maybe if this was really a joint effort. Perhaps if there was a VW drive train, or other VW technologies built into this thing, myself and others would be less likely to criticize. But let's face it... this thing is a re-badged Chrysler with barely enough facelift to somewhat resemble a VW.

_Modified by BumbleBeeJBG at 9:02 AM 2-11-2008_

Wow. I basically just found out about this Routan today, by chance. I read around a bit, looked at some interior/exterior comparison pics. I se a fair bit of defense of the thing but, in the end, I have to agree with you. This is pretty sad day for VW enthusiasts. The only thing one might give credit for is that they somewhat "partnered" with someone who has been winning the American Minivan game for a long time - kinda smart considering VW's own minivan market and experience is quite different. Other than that, I think it's a travesty, and even by pictures alone, and given the drivetrain is essentially all Chyrsler, yes, it's clearly just a rebadge, which I cannot respect. But my respect for VW has pretty much plummeted to near zero anyway, so... They are basically just a global conglomerate now. As long as I get my Audi how I like it, and TDI succeeds, I'm happy.










_Modified by RogueTDI at 3:13 PM 7-24-2008_


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## Dr. Woo (Feb 28, 2003)

I've decided to just hold my nose, pretend it doesn't exist, and hope its sales enable a Touran import down the road.
Or at least build it in Tennessee.


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## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: (Dr. Woo)*

just noticed the Routan being promoted in a tv spot by Brooke Shields, going on and on about getting "German Engineering" in the Routan. Huh? Like, German engineered cup holders??


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## pezzy84 (Apr 12, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (ALEXBAILEY228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ALEXBAILEY228* »_the could have at least made the interior lights blue, or add the stylish satinless steel interior molding. it doesnt look any different than the chrysler mini van at all really, they could easily thrown in a 2.0t to make the same numbers as the base model and thrown in a 3.2 or 3.6 vr6 for the premium package, both engines are capable of the same amount of power and they will get better gas milage which i think every starting american family would appreciate a van that saves them a little money. they could of changed the styling a little bit so it doesnt look exactly like the chrysler, wheres the sleek streamline look they gave us in the new passat, EOS, and any new vw for that matter. vw got lazy with this one and i dont think it will sell.

You realize how much $$$$$$$$$ it would have cost VW to adapt, test and federalize VW engines into a Chryco platform. How much $$$$$$$ it would have cost VW to make the extensive body changes you are requesting. VW went to Chrysler and spent a FRACTION of what it would have cost them to build their own van from the ground up.
Even if it does not sell well the $$$ lost on the project will be a drop in a bucket compared to what would have been lost if they designed their own van only to have it priced even higher than the Routan and having TCL members like YOU saying "OMGWTF ITS TOO EXPENSIVE".


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## AzBarber (Jun 2, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (pezzy84)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pezzy84* »_
Even if it does not sell well the $$$ lost on the project will be a drop in a bucket compared to what would have been lost if they designed their own van only to have it priced even higher than the Routan and having TCL members like YOU saying "OMGWTF ITS TOO EXPENSIVE". 

So they do it wrong guaranteeing failure, rather than do it right and risk a winner.
Typical corporate logic. If they were an American Insurance company, they'd be getting a federal buyout soon...
Az


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## pezzy84 (Apr 12, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (AzBarber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AzBarber* »_
So they do it wrong guaranteeing failure, rather than do it right and risk a winner.
Az

Tell me how EXACTLY did they "do it wrong" by teaming up with someone who already knows how to build a minivan that will appeal to the North American consumer. This allowed them quick time to market, the ability to keep costs down and the ability to CHEAPLY test the minivan waters here to see if an in house VW minivan would be worth the risk (aka Microbus). 
IIRC the Eurovan was a HUGE FLOP here in North America so importing the Transporter is out. 
VW does not have anything in its portfolio that even closely compares to the North American "minivan" so massaging an existing model is out.....even if that was the case the Euro/Dollar exchange rate would price it right out of the market. 
Developing a North American specific model. So you want VW to dump billions into R&D for a North American specific vehicle that would probably price itself right out of the market no matter how good it is. Then all I would here from you and the rest of the Vortex is......"why is it taking so long", or "who does VW think they are pricing it this high" or like I said "OMGWTF ITS TOO EXPENSIVE". 
You do realize building a vehicle from the ground up takes considerable amounts of time and $$$ do you?


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

i saw one yesterday
ITS HIDEOUS 
im embarrassed so say im a vw enthusiast now that thy cal that a vw


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## AzBarber (Jun 2, 2003)

*Re: Un-official "Routan is not really a VW" thread (pezzy84)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pezzy84* »_
Tell me how EXACTLY did they "do it wrong" by teaming up with someone who already knows how to build a minivan that will appeal to the North American consumer. 


First and foremost is that they are teaming up with someone who already knows how to build a minivan that will appeal to the North American consumer, and then competing with them. This wouldn't be so bad if;
1; They offered something different than those folks they're competing with. And no, trim isn't enough. 
2: The people they're teaming with/competing with have the market pretty well sewn up, with Honda and Toyota, of course.
3: The market wasn't shrinking faster than your pickle in ice water.
What would ensure success would be;
1: To have something that is completely thier own and offer some uniquely VW engineering.
2: Market it correctly. Or at all. Part of the reason the Eurovan failed was that many people didn't even know it existed until after it was gone. 
3: Basing it on the most successful van platform in the rest of the world would actually keep costs down.
Az


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## AzBarber (Jun 2, 2003)

Oh yeah, one more thing to insure success:
Fix the incredibly crappy dealer network.
Az


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## AZ_NaTiV (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: (AzBarber)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4042066
Its a Dodge. Its not a VW. A piece of poop wrapped in a Snickers wrapper is not a Snickers. 
And I agree with AZ - if VW had marketed the EV at all it wouldn't have been a flop. Everywhere we go people are asking us about our EV - they love it for the seating arrangments, size, trunk space, ease of entry/exit, etc. 
We were frusterated when they didn't bring the T5 to the US, we were frusterated when the Microbus died on the vine, and now we're fed up that VW wraps a Dodge with a VW sticker and tries to pass it off as a VW with "German Engineering". But at least the thing has 13 G*d D*mn cupholders!!!
VW has turned its back on its Van roots. I thought VW claimed to be the "inventor" of the minivan?


_Modified by AZ_NaTiV at 4:14 PM 10-2-2008_


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## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: (AZ_NaTiV)*

13 cupholders, a conversation mirror, a transmission that has a dipstick, ain't as fragile as a senior citizen's hip and tires that can be purchased anywhere. Oh, and what about a sliding rear door that will actually latch & lock at temperatures under 50 degrees?


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## AZ_NaTiV (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: (vwbugstuff)*

Well, if you're betting on Chrysler quality controls, be my guest....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4042907


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## gerwazy (May 1, 2003)

*Re: (AZ_NaTiV)*

Wouldn't you rather drive this:


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## AZ_NaTiV (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: (gerwazy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gerwazy* »_Wouldn't you rather drive this:










Makes me







everytime I see it. Ah, the irony of the T5 "California".
I'd love to drive one of those with a license plate that says "NOT MINI".


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: (gerwazy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gerwazy* »_Wouldn't you rather drive this:










Nope, not a chance.


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## biggiephat (Jun 6, 2007)

that van AT LEAST has 4 front bumpers...


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## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

The Sirius looks like it was grafted from the MyGig that came in every Chrysler, oh wait this IS a Chrysler


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## ABAcabby (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (kenny_blankenship)*

wouldn't you rather drive this?








this minivan was a horrible mistake and so was not making the microbus.


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## AZ_NaTiV (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: (ABAcabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABAcabby* »_wouldn't you rather drive this?








this minivan was a horrible mistake and so was not making the microbus.

I'm even more sadder every time I see this.


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## vwbugstuff (Mar 27, 2004)

*Re: (ABAcabby)*


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## biggiephat (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (vwbugstuff)*

haha thanks.
the microbus was not appealing to me AT ALL. Looks like a pill


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: (biggiephat)*

How bad will these dumb things depreciate? 

lol







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## thegimpster (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: (GTi2OV)*

i'm not gonna rag it over and over. I have a pt cruiser too, it is ok, but thats it, ok. Engine is ok, tranny sucks... I don't like the routan, probably won't ever get one, unless it is 20+ years old and $500 like every other vw i purchase, but even then i will still pass it by.....


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: (GTi2OV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTi2OV* »_How bad will these dumb things depreciate? 


My expectation is that it will probably depreciate quite a bit as most minivans do. You can probably see some pretty good savings if you wait and buy a used one when they're 1-2 years old.
You see some high prices on some of the Eurovans now but that wasn't the way it was when Volkswagen was still selling them. I bought a 2000 Eurovan MV which sold for just over $30,000 new for $20,900 in 2001 with 15,000 miles on it.


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