# Loss of engine oil (leak while driving) - V8 engine, frozen crankcase breather



## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton*

My V8 Phaeton experienced a (relatively) sudden and massive loss of engine oil while on a road trip from Vail Colorado to home - Fort Wayne, IN. The car has been towed from Omaha Nebraska to Des Moines Iowa (146 miles) for repair. There was no Phaeton authorized VW dealership in Omaha.
I checked the oil level myself just prior to leaving Vail. It was full. I filled up in Ogallalla Nebraska. The car was running great. No smoke, noise, or instrument warnings. We stopped at a rest area about 200 miles later and still no problems. Then, about 100 miles later, we stopped in Omaha Nebraska to fill up. We pulled off Interstate 80 and upon stopping at the top of the ramp there was smoke and burning oil odor observed.
We were running about 70-90 MPH for 600+ miles. Fully loaded - 4 adults and luggage. The air temp outside is *2 - 6 below zero F.*
I immediately pulled into the gas station about 500 feet away and popped the hood. The engine is running fine. No unusual engine noises. No instrument warnings. Engine coollant temp 200F. Oil temp 180F. *There is spattered engine oil all over the passenger side engine head and engine compartment hoses and fixtures. There is at least several ounces of what visually appears to be, and smells like, engine oil actively dripping onto the ground. The oil has contacted the exhaust manifold and smoke is rising from the engine but the engine is definitely not over-heated.* *The engine oil dipstick still reads full.*
It's midnight so I get a motel room. The next morning, in spite of sub-Zero temps, the engine immediately starts up as smooth as silk. There is no active dripping of oil and no warning lights. So I drive my Phaeton 15.1 miles to a VW dealer. When I arrive, there is some mild smoke noted and active dripping of oil but still no instrument warnings, the temps (and presumably pressures) are normal and the car is running fine.
On the lift-rack however, there is a massive amount (maybe a quart) of oil spread from the passenger side engine compartment all the way back to the rear bumper.
The dealership was not an authorized Phaeton repair facility. We could not determined the leak location visually and the vehicle was towed 146 miles to an authorized repair facility. It's President's Day weekend. The facility is closed so I won't know what is going on until 1-2 days from now.
I don't have proof that the fluid is engine oil but it appeared to be engine oil and it does not appear to be engine coollant, brake fluid, power steering fluid, or transmission fluid. Furthermore, with the quantity of fluid leaked, those systems would malfunction and they did not.
QUESTIONS:
1) Is this problem related to http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2309839?
2) If this problem does appear to be related, are V8 Phaetons too vulnerable to engine oil cooller and/or water radiator damage?
3) Is a recall required to correct this deficiency?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

Hi Rob:
Wow, that's no fun!
It just so happens that I am on my way from Kansas to Chicago today (early Sunday morning, February 19th). It wouldn't be too hard for me to drop by Des Moines - that would only add about an hour to my trip - but, I can't tell from your post if you are still there or not. If you see this message before 0800 Sunday morning, let me know if (and where) you are in Des Moines, and I'll detour up to see you.
All I can guess at - based on the information that you provided - is that not enough oil leaked from the car to trigger the 'Low Oil Level' warning annunciation. Although this is good news (likely there is no damage to your engine), it doesn't do you any good so far as getting back on the road in a hurry is concerned.
The problem that Rob encountered with oil loss from his V8 (at the post you referenced - Phaeton in ICU) was caused by road debris hitting the front underside of the car - Rob said as much in his first post on that thread. I wonder if perhaps you may have driven over one of those big ice-chunks that sometimes fall off the back of trucks during below-freezing temperature conditions? Just a guess.
Take some pictures once the technicians at the dealership find out where the leak is. It would be interesting to see them. 
It might be a bit premature to talk about a recall, given that the cause of the problem has not been determined yet.
Michael


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

I wonder if the oil filter cap loosened up? It would seem to cause the conditions described here. In any event, good luck getting the problem resolved.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (pretendcto)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pretendcto* »_I wonder if the oil filter cap loosened up?
That is an interesting thought. The oil filter assembly on the W12 Phaeton is fairly complex. I don't know if the oil filter assembly on the V8 Phaeton is the same or not. Below are some pictures that I took when the staff at my VW dealer did the 20K oil change a few weeks ago. Hopefully this will give you an overview of how everything fits together, and perhaps some ideas of where to look for possible problems or causes of problems.

Michael

*There is a small disc about the diameter of a 25¢ coin that is removed to drain oil from the oil filter housing.*
It is operated with a hex key, and has a very low specified torque value. It is partially removed in this photo - normally it is flush with the bottom of the black lower filter assembly.


*Once this plug is removed, oil can drain from the filter canister (only).*


*The lower half of the filter canister is then removed with a large wrench.*
Note the brass threads that the drain plug fits into.


*The lower half of the filter canister is made of a plastic material, and is sealed to the upper half with an O-ring.*
The O-ring is renewed at every filter change - a new O-ring is included in the box with the filter.


*This picture shows the upper half of the oil filter canister.*
If the lower edge of the chin spoiler on the Phaeton is smooth and has no scratches on it, then that is proof to the technician that you have not 'curbed' the car.


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## RobtBr (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

There is spattered engine oil all over the passenger side engine head and engine compartment hoses and fixtures. There is at least several ounces of what visually appears to be, and smells like, engine oil actively dripping onto the ground. The oil has contacted the exhaust manifold and smoke is rising from the engine but the engine is definitely not over-heated. The engine oil dipstick still reads full.
The same thing happened to me in January. The Low Engine Oil light came on, so I took it to the dealer. My W12 had lost 4+ quarts of oil in a short time. The dealer replaced an oil valve near the front of the engine, then put the car on another lift to pressure wash the bottom of the car. The whole process took less than an hour, but it was quite concerning that the car could lose its oil so fast. I was lucky the dealer had the part in stock and replaced it as soon as I arrived.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (RobtBr)*

Hi Robert:
That's interesting, thanks for sharing that information. Do you have the part number of the valve (from the work order)? If so, I can look it up and post an illustration showing where it is.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Hello everyone,
Time to give you an update.
The VW dealership in Johnston Iowa (suburb of Des Moines) said the problem is a crankcase ventilation valve. They said they will have it fixed by the end of the week. The service rep didn't give me much confidence when he said, "...right now we're thinking that's the problem...
I considered having my Phaeton transported back to Fort Wayne, IN (about 500 miles) by flat bed truck to have it fixed by my local dealership. I trust them and know they will make it right. I may do that if the Iowa service department finds anything else wrong. Since they told me this is a relatively easy (and quick) fix, I will ignore my paranoia and see what the next few days brings. We really do worry about our ill Phaeton like a family member undergoing surgery!
I appreciate the forum, it's nice to talk to quality people who understand! (see http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2436106)
It appears there are several ways to loose engine oil mentioned on this forum. One of our moderators may eventually want to merge these threads and title the new thread something like "loss of engine oil" Just a suggestion.
Thank you Michael for offering to swing by Des Moines. I already left the area via a rented car, posted the problem as soon as I arrived home, and then went to bed.
I'll update when I know anyhting else.


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_...The service rep didn't give me much confidence when he said, "...right now we're thinking that's the problem...

Robert,
Thanks for the update, we appreciate it!
As far as the diagnosis, I have my doubts although we all know it's tough being an armchair mechanic from many miles (1248) away. The Crankcase Vent Valve on the V8 (#9) is on the drivers side of the throttle body at the rear of the engine ... I don't see how this could cause the mess you described on the passenger side of the car.








Here is an exploded view of the Oil Filter Housing which is located on the passenger side of the engine (V8) roughly under the airbox. I would guess that the oil filter cap o-ring is leaking (#17) because of a loose cap (note that it points upward), or something like the oil pressure sending unit (#12) is leaking. Was the oil last changed just before your trip?








Of course, I do have confidence that most people have a brain and that your car is in capable hands. Please keep us updated.
Thanks,
Paul
Edit: I added the #9 to clarify which part was the Crankcase Vent Valve.


_Modified by pretendcto at 1:54 PM 2-21-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

Hi Robert:
Thanks for giving us all the update. I'm glad to hear you got home OK.
Don't forget that the dealership in Iowa that has your car right now has some really great resources to tap into if they need some expert help making everything right for you. To start with, there is the team at Phaeton Customer Care that they can call (yes, dealerships can call PCC too), and there is also the VW 'Techline' that they can call. The folks at the techline desk can put the technician who has your car in touch with some folks in Auburn Hills who are real experts.
If there is any silver lining in the cloud, it is that your broken-down car is in the care of the staff of dealership in a small town, rather than a huge dealership in the middle of a big city. I think that small town folks - especially folks from agricultural areas, like Iowa - are a lot more pragmatic when it comes to calling for advice and assistance than people in big cities are. Plus, I bet every VW tech within 50 miles will be dropping by to either look at the car, or to study the service manual to see if they can win 'bragging rights' by being the person who correctly identifies the cause of the problem!

_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_One of our moderators may eventually want to merge these threads and title the new thread something like "loss of engine oil" 

That's a good suggestion, thank you for it. I think what I will do is post Archival Notes (cross-reference links) on the different 'loss of oil' threads that we have, so that if a person views one thread, they will find the links pointing to others. I'll put this particular thread into the Table of Contents, so it can be located easily in the future. It will be a few days before I can create the cross-links - I need to search the archive first.
Michael


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## RobtBr (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

I just spoke with the service advisor at my dealership regarding the oil loss issue I had last month. He informed me the replacement part is called a Pressure Sensor Switch, VW part #06A-919-081-D. The replacement took only a few minutes as I was in and out in under an hour. And that included pressure washing the undercarriage.
As I said previously, my W12 lost 4+ quarts of oil. The switch popped open and a continuous stream of oil was pumping out as I was driving. I didn't know until the Low Engine Oil light came on. The W12 holds somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 quarts of oil, so I still had around 8 or 9 quarts when I arrived at the dealership.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

I called Jordan VW in Johnston, IA today and they said my car is fixed! Considering they had to overnight parts, that was really fast!








I'm going to pick it up tomorrow. I'll let you know how the 500 mile drive home goes. I'll scan the invoice or post the part number. Relatively simple and easy fix for what appeared to be a possible catastrophic failure.
Hey Robert (RobtBr),
My brother-in-law's V8 Phaeton had to have an oil pressure sensor switch replaced but he had no loss of oil. I'm going to get the part number to see if it is similar to yours (the W12 Pressure Sensor Switch).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (RobtBr)*

Hi to both Roberts!








*To 'RobtBr' Robert: * Thanks very much for that valuable information about the oil pressure switch - I had one of those blow out on a Pratt & Whitney turbine engine when I was making a transatlantic ferry flight - that's no fun when you are at 30°W on a dark night, flipping through drift-down tables and trying to figure out if you will be flying or swimming to your planned destination...
*To 'iluvmcr' Robert:* Great to hear the car is fixed and ready to go. Let us know the details of the repair once you see the work order. Enjoy the drive - I think that whole Midwest area is the nicest part of your country.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Hi Everyone,
I drove My V8 Phaeton home last night - 527 miles. The oil leak is definitely fixed. Jordan Motors in Johston, IA diagnosed and fixed the problem in only 2 days. Overall my service experience was very good. I going to recommend them on http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2295022.
The cause of the leak turned out to be interesting. I drove from Vail to Denver with mild temperatures but soon after leaving Denver, The temp dropped to -2F to -6F all the way to Omaha (over 400 miles). We were running filly loaded at 70-90 mph. It turns out that extremely low temperatures can cause the crankcase breather to malfunction.
To Quote the invoice:
42966 Plugged crankcase breather. Inspected vehicle, found leakage on right side of engine. Lifted Vehicle and removed belly pans. ... could not locate source of leak. contacted tech line. Was informed to clean engine and add oil dyeto crankcase. Ran vehicle for 15 mins, no obvious leak seen. Contacted Bob H, was informed to replce crankcase breather and right side valve cover gasket *BECAUSE OF LOW TEMP CRANKCASE BREATHER LINE FREEZING...*
077-103-245-B valve
077-198-025-A gasket set
N-104-180-01 clip
N-102-581-01 clip


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

Hi Robert:
Thanks a lot for providing that detailed follow-up. The next time I go to my VW dealer, I will ask them to show me where the crankcase breather thing is on the service loaner Phaeton (a V8). I'll take some pictures and post them here.
I have no idea what a crankcase breather is, I hope the W12 does not have one - wouldn't want it to freeze up here in Canada.








Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

The crankcase breather allows pressure equalisation for the "bottom half" of the engine. 
The piston rings effectively seal the "top half" from the "bottom half". Without the crankcase breather, when pressure builds up in the "bottom half" due to temperature, oil level changes during operation, blowby, etc., it would relieve itself by leaking through oil seals. 
The breather allows these vapors to be burned off in the combustion chambers by venting them back through the intake manifold.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (chrisj428)*

Guess I'll have to get one of those 'elephant hoses' that are so popular with the TDI crowd...


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Michael, 
Don't you have some of this laying around somewhere?


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (chrisj428)*

Thanks for the explanation Chris. I couldn't figure out where the vented vapors were going or where the oil was exiting the engine.
Question: The service invoice said they could not duplicate the problem. Of course, they were working on the car in a warm environment (garage with the exhaust vented via flex duct). I this occurs in the future, I wonder if one could thaw the assembly and, at least temporarily, correct the oil leak. What do you think?


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

Many will remember replacing PCV valves on their earlier model cars. Well, the concept is still there, even if the valve isn't part of the routine maintenance.
What I'll bet happened (and this is an armchair mechanic guess) is that once the car was inside, the valve defrosted. However, the pressure buildup had already done it's damage and the valve/hose/etc. subsequently required replacement.


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_077-103-245-B valve

I looked up the valve part number on my favorite Internet VW parts site and the description returned was PCV valve. I then recalled seeing something about a PCV valve heater fuse in my Bentley manual. I looked and found a reference to fuse #59. I don't know which Phaetons have this heater but I'm curious if this is another piece to the puzzle.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (pretendcto)*

Hi Paul:
That's an awesome and very thoughtful bit of troubleshooting on your part, you really have the 'paths of influence' concept figured out! If you ever get tired of the 'day job' and want to go into aircraft maintenance, just send me an IM...









I had a look at all the wiring diagrams in the North American Phaeton Service Manual and could not find a reference to either N79 or to the fuse at SB 59. So, I switched over to the German language diagrams, which show all possible engine configurations. The PCV heating element is only present on the AYT engine, which is the 3.2 liter engine. I found it on the power distribution diagram shown below. Looks like the folks at Robert Bentley didn't edit the fuse listing carefully enough.

*Wiring Diagram - Dual Battery Power Distribution - ROW*


I had a look in the parts catalog to see if I could find anything interesting related to that breather tube, and did come across a very interesting illustration. It seems that there are two configurations of breather tube, one for warm / temperate climates, and one for 'cold' climates. All of North America is considered, by default, to be a 'cold' climate region.

The catalog shows that there are two different kinds of breather tube, and that there is an insulation assembly that fits around the breather tube. This raises the question of whether this insulation assembly (if fitted to Robert's car) was removed at one time and, by oversight, not replaced. The fact that VW does have a specific design of breather tube for cold climates, and that Robert's car is specified as a 'cold climate vehicle' _(Kaltlandfahrzeuge), _and is appropriate coded and equipped for this climate (snow screens, etc.) does rule out the possibility of a design error.

*Robert* - I will take some pictures of this same component on the service loaner at my VW dealer tomorrow, and post them here. That will allow you to compare what it looks like to your vehicle, and see if there is a part that is different or missing.

*Chris:* Please double-check to make sure the thing I have illustrated below is, in fact, the correct part (crankcase breather). Considering how little I know about engines, it could also be the Dindle rod or the Johnson bar.

*4.2 Liter Parts Illustration*


Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*

Here is a picture of a crankcase breather part installed on a 4.2 liter Touareg engine. This engine is very similar to the engine in the 4.2 liter Phaeton (the differences are likely emissions related, because the Phaeton and Touareg fall into two different emission regulation categories). I don't know if the parts used are exactly the same in both, however, it was the best picture I could get.

Michael

*Crankcase Breather*


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_That's an awesome and very thoughtful bit of troubleshooting on your part, you really have the 'paths of influence' concept figured out! If you ever get tired of the 'day job' and want to go into aircraft maintenance, just send me an IM...









Michael, thanks for the compliment! I'm just trying to be the best moderator in training that I can be ... LOL. Paul.
PS - It will have to wait until my term as lake club president concludes. Fun, fun, fun.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Please double-check to make sure the thing I have illustrated below is, in fact, the correct part (crankcase breather). Considering how little I know about engines, it could also be the Dindle rod or the Johnson bar.

Michael,
It's the Knudsen Valve. Specially designed for installation only on Damn Cold weather spec vehicles (e.g. Norway & all points north). Helps keep the lutefisk right where it belongs.
Actually, you've hit the nail on the head. The valve (#3 in the ETKA listing) is what controls the flow of vapors from the crankcase (lower half of the engine) to the intake, where it's burned off.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_*Robert* - I will take some pictures of this same component on the service loaner at my VW dealer tomorrow, and post them here. That will allow you to compare what it looks like to your vehicle, and see if there is a part that is different or missing.


Thank-you very much to all for this thorough investigation. I was beginning to think I should avoid extreme cold weather driving with my Phaeton! I will check to see if there is any insulation present. Maybe I should rig up some sort of electrical heater circuit that can be turned off and on when needed. Or, looking at the electrical diagram above, do some sort of retrofit.
You know, this information could save a lot of grief and sorrow to cold weather drivers.


_Modified by iluvmcr at 9:08 PM 2-25-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_ I will check to see if there is any insulation present. 

The absence of a illustration reference number for the insulation in the illustration a few posts above means that the insulation exists, but it is not shown on the illustration... which is unfortunate. The Touareg has a different kind of plastic cover that goes over the engine, and my guess is that the plastic cover probably traps enough heat to keep that valve toasty warm. 
I'll still try and get a photo of the same valve on a Phaeton V8.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: massive loss of engine oil in V8 Phaeton (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_ I was beginning to think I should avoid extreme cold weather driving with my Phaeton!

No, not at all. Phaetons are very popular in Moscow, they sell like hotcakes into Russia, and it's colder there than it is in North America.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note: * More recent discussion of the same problem can be found here - Burning Smell, Oil Film on engine during very cold weather (both W12 and V8).

Michael


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