# Gates Racing belt failure....Fun times



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Car dies getting off highway. Timing belt appeared to be intact and not broken but the belt would not spin and sounded like no compression. Removed the crank pulley and found teeth from the belt stripped off. At this point I'm not sure what caused it. The belt has around 20k on it. The water pump spins freely and so does the tensioner pulley. I'm running an IE manual tensioner kit and I have been having some issue with the tensioners being/becoming noisy. I'm not sure why, I have replaced it twice and it still ends up making noise even with proper tension on the belt and proper torque on the hardware. I suspect that it may have to do with the torque of the nut. Originally I.E were recommending 40ftlbs and later changed to 33ft lbs. The original 16v tensioners were 33ftlbs which is what the pulley is anyway. I have installed those kits and several friends and customers cars and have had no issue but of course my car makes noise. Not blaming the tensioner kit or the belt. Just need to get to the bottom of it. If anyone has any ideas chime in. If anyone has a good head for sale PM. Thanks!


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Dang dude!!!!!!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Look for metal debris under crank gear


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I'm curious if your top or bottom end seized


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] Performance said:


> Dang dude!!!!!!


Yeah man




groggory said:


> Look for metal debris under crank gear





groggory said:


> I'm curious if your top or bottom end seized


I checked already and only found belt teeth and no metal. The crank turns over good by hand. I may go pull the valve cover and see if anything looks suspect. I really don't have time for this lol:thumbdown:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The upside here is a 1.8t Longblock can be had for cheap


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

What a coincidence. New belt/build and manual tensioner just a week ago


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Haha..I knew you would chime in Al. I know you are not a fan of the manual set-up. Did you at least come up with what failed in that case?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> The upside here is a 1.8t Longblock can be had for cheap


At this point that doesn't make sense since I already have IE rods. I plan on pulling the head, inspect, remove valves and then send it to the machine shop and let them look it over. Also in the market for a used head just to simplify things...


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Exactly why I stick with Conti belts.

Never had one fail in over 150k miles between 3 cars

I hope for the best.

Has anyone ever had a Conti belt fail from too much power?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

^ Same here. Conti only. The 1.8t conti belt is a 105 mile belt.

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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*105k lol

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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Dave926 said:


> Exactly why I stick with Conti belts.
> 
> Never had one fail in over 150k miles between 3 cars
> 
> ...


x3. That's all I use.

"if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

---------------------

You can probably fix that, man. If you pop it open, maybe you only have to replace 15 valves


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Have a feeling it's not the belt that caused this...


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Vegeta Gti said:


> ^ Same here. Conti only. The 1.8t conti belt is a 105 mile belt.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


Idk about 105k lol

I feel comfortable doing it at 50k. I'm sure high rpm use accelerates wear

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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> Have a feeling it's not the belt that caused this...


Not blaming the belt but at this point I'm not sure what caused it. Still need to pull the valve cover and see if anything looks suspect.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

I normally run the conti belt but I figured I'd give the gates a shot. Will be going back to the conti belt.


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Twopnt016v said:


> Haha..I knew you would chime in Al. I know you are not a fan of the manual set-up. Did you at least come up with what failed in that case?


That sucks man Doesn't matter how much money you put into your engine to make it bulletproof, when all it takes is a damn belt breaking to ruin it.. Really curious as to what Al's findings were also


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Arnold is pro- hydro tensioners


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

groggory said:


> Arnold is pro- hydro tensioners


So am I :thumbup:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

^^ I'll be switching back for sure.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I've got several hundred miles on my Gates and refreshed engine...


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

My gates looked brand new after two seasons. Even after hyd tensioner failure it looked like new. We changed it only as a precaution. Never going back. :beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

No issues over the years with conti belt and my manual setup. Failures happen. But I've seen literally hundreds of Hydro tensioner failures and when it comes to a manual setup... Not everyone should install one lol

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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> My gates looked brand new after two seasons. Even after hyd tensioner failure it looked like new. We changed it only as a precaution. Never going back. :beer:


You put 20k on the belt? Still using hydro? I actually picked up a new gates belt a few weeks ago to toss on when replacing the tensioner but I'm reluctant to use it now. Especially If I don't find fault with anything else. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it...


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

All I know is almost all teeth on the belt are peeling right off around almost the entire belt.


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## gitman (May 13, 2004)

Twopnt016v said:


> All I know is almost all teeth on the belt are peeling right off around almost the entire belt.


hmm do you have more heat hitting the belt than you'd typically see on a 1.8t?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Belt just snapped. It was probably a tension issue. There is no stated installation procedure on these kinds of belts as they were never intended to be used w/ manual tensioners. The old 90deg twist to slack up for heat expansion doesnt really apply here as the gates belt is made of an entirely different material (whether it be nitrile or kevlar or fiber) with differing levels of stretch. Even newer 'manual' timing belt systems incorporate a preload mechanism before tightening. I wouldnt say i'm pro-hrydo tensioners but, in my experience, its the lesser of the two evils. When a hydro tensioner works, they work very well. Manual tensioning is technically flawed


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I still don't understand the need for a Kevlar belt

Who has broken one from too much power?


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

Possible manual tensioner failure here too. Engine stopped and the belt was intact but impact occurred.









Bye bye stroker

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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

^^^^^^ is that a 2.0 or 2.1 stroker? Doesn't look like much room between pistons.

OP: How many times did you check the tension after you set it? Everything I've read says to recheck it a couple of times after setting it. Really sucks to hear this happened.

Everyone with a gates belt now is cringing and crossing fingers(including me) :laugh:.


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

Mine wasn't gates as it's an aeb. 82.5mm

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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I actually ditched my Gates for a Continental not 6 months ago, it was way loud and I just didn't trust it...this makes me want to ditch the manual tensioner as well


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I'm going oem hydro, conti belt, and the best water pump per faq next time.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

^^ Yep.. same here on my AEB.

Belt tension is obviously critical with a manual tensioner. I believe that the use the use of a belt tension gauge is critical in the setting up of manual tensioners. The " Twist 90 degrees " method is just not accurate enough. How much effort do you put into " twisting 90 degrees " ? A little or a lot. 

When I initially installed my manual tensioner, I set it up using the suppliers printed install instructions. I could twist the belt 90 degrees no problem. But the T-Belt was obviously too tight as it was noisy as hell. 

I did some research and found a You Tube video ( by the same supplier ) showing how much LESS tension was required. It was evident from the video that a 90 degree twist could be applied with much less force than I thought. 

Now someone like a VW mechanic who works on these regularly, and is used to setting the belt tension on the older 16V engines, has probably developed the " feel " that tensioning these belts require. Even then they probably like to use a tension gauge.

But for someone who may never have adjusted a 16v style manual tensioner in their life, I think the possibility of error created by not using a tension gauge on a manual tensioner kit is just far to high. IMHO.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

There is an oem tool for belt tension check, fyi


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

groggory said:


> There is an oem tool for belt tension check, fyi


Lemmee guess..it's in the FAQ? :beer:


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

I believe mine slipped once something impacted rather than it slipping causing it. Autopsy will hopefully show something. But I think I'm going back to hydro after this for peace of mind

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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Gulfstream said:


> Have a feeling it's not the belt that caused this...


this... 



Vegeta Gti said:


> ^ Same here. Conti only. The 1.8t conti belt is a 105 mile belt.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


x2 i do run the conti belts and OEM tensioners along with it. never had an issue


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chickenman35 said:


> Lemmee guess..it's in the FAQ? :beer:


Actually no. I need to add that

How's this

Gates 91107 Belt Tension Tester by Gates http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUTAGS/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_xW6Ptb1FF3AP7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DZYfYFccAM&sns=em


Now we just need someone to test a continental belts with the OEM 90° twist to check for belt tension


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

groggory said:


> Actually no. I need to add that
> 
> How's this
> 
> ...


Awesome deal!! $11.41 ( you save $40.30 ) Nice find. :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Since January 1st 2014 over done 7 manual timing belt conversions. They are all OK. Last year I did 12 and the year before that 5. 8 of these are k04 or bigger and are daily driven and do 9k- 15k a year. Not bull****ting. But maybe spending the last 20 years of owning almost exclusively mk1's with 8v abd 16v in them. I've developed a lack for it and then dealer experience and aftermarket since 03. 

Or maybe my luck finally changed abd I'm Oceola lucky with timing belt stuff. .. or incredibly OCD. 

I will say again. From 03 til today I've seen dozens of oem Hydro tensioners fail. Only 3 I've installed the last being a month ago and it failed right out of the box within an hour. Lucky the car wasnt started. That car immediately go a Manual setup.

I'm blown away my experience is supposedly unique. 

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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Btw.. I'm didn't spell check the above post. . I'm sneaking this in at dinner lol

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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> OP: How many times did you check the tension after you set it? Everything I've read says to recheck it a couple of times after setting it. Really sucks to hear this happened.
> 
> Everyone with a gates belt now is cringing and crossing fingers(including me) :laugh:.


I check the tension on the belt weekly because I am OCD and am always messing with the car. Tension was correct.





Chickenman35 said:


> Now someone like a VW mechanic who works on these regularly, and is used to setting the belt tension on the older 16V engines, has probably developed the " feel " that tensioning these belts require. Even then they probably like to use a tension gauge..


^This is me. I have done tons and tons of 16v timing belts over the years and never had a problem. I have also installed 10 or so IE kits and never had a problem. I'm still not fully into it yet but right now it looks like the belt was just coming apart on its own.:thumbdown: I can't find anything yet that locked up causing the teeth to peel off the belt. For the record I'm still not pointing the finger at any component yet. If you have ever seen Al talk about what he doesn't like about manual tensioners I can see where he is coming from. The tensioner will never adjust for heat and the belt changing tension like it will with a hydro unit. Maybe that put stress on the teeth and the gates belt just couldn't handle it. The wildcard here in my eyes is the gates belt. This is the first time I have ever run a gates belt and I end up with this....fukmylife


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

sorry if anyone has said this yet i failed to see it in here, but if u do have a manual IE tensioner and a Gates racing belt on your 1.8t and u have one of these belt tensioner checker's i just purchased one on amazon thanks for the link $11 bux is fine by me for a little peace of mind, but how much tension should be on our belt? what is the correct lb's or tension???


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

NaSMK4 said:


> sorry if anyone has said this yet i failed to see it in here, but if u do have a manual IE tensioner and a Gates racing belt on your 1.8t and u have one of these belt tensioner checker's i just purchased one on amazon thanks for the link $11 bux is fine by me for a little peace of mind, but how much tension should be on our belt? what is the correct lb's or tension???


That is something you will have to take up with Gates as VW has no recommendation to use such tool. They only employee the 90* twist method. As Al pointed out that Gates belt is meant to be run with a hydro tensioner not a manual since no manual tensioners came on 20v cars. If gates makes a racing belt for the 16v and offers up tensioning specs then you might be able to use those. Or test the tension on a hydro set-up...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Twopnt016v said:


> I check the tension on the belt weekly because I am OCD and am always messing with the car. Tension was correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I've done quite a few in my 25+yrs on these things. If you look at the earlier belts, they are almost designed to fail. Especially the 8v ones with their square tooth. They were very noisy. Anyone that says that they never experienced timing belt woes on mk2's and 3's either havent done enough of them or never put power to them. Most of them are puttering around at sub 120whp. I had a scirocco 16vt for a number of years and I used to change the belt on it every couple of years and checking it often. I probably averaged 20k miles on the belt and it was worn by that time. I think stock manual tensioner setup tb change intervals was at 45 or 60k while the 1.8t was at 105k. I've seen TONS of 1.8t's with their original belts (negligent owners) at over 100k. I wouldnt endorse this but it is quite common. I've seen hydro failures as well. Its not very common as ppl will lead you to believe, well, at least on my end but they do fail from time to time. I would think you would see more hydro failures as the ratio b/w hydro guys and manual guys is probably like 100,000/1. Having said all of this, I was also on that manual bandwagon for a year or so. I've machined and put together a full kit for it which I never marketed. Had them on 40 or so cars in house and provided parts. I've had maybe a couple fail (owner installed) and had inspected ones with mileage. From what i've seen, its not something that I can endorse for the long haul. I still have many cars out there running on them for years but I can never shake the ticking time bomb syndrome that I feel they are on these motors...


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## burnthesheep (May 4, 2012)

I'm going to insert a quasi-informed opinion here on some of the comments: power has nothing to do with the belt failures. It's the RPM the engine spins at, and how quickly it accelerates to that RPM.

A bone stock chipped 1.8T doing a 1st gear burn when it's wet outside will accelerate the engine RPM from 2000 to 7500 much much much quicker than a big turbo doing a 3rd gear roll. The engine essentially goes from 2000 to 7500 RPM in a second once the tires slip.

The ONLY factor having more power attributes to a belt failure vs a bone stock car is the maximum RPM that can be achieved.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Power has plenty to do with what kind of load it puts on just about everything that rotates on the engine. I'll give you one of several examples... What you are doing when you add power to the equation is that you are raising volumetric efficiency. When you do this without, lets say, raising the displacement of the motor is by cramming more volume into the cylinders per stroke via larger turbocharger or more boost. This, invariably, raises cylinder pressures which elevates the combustion pressures as well. The timing belt will be stressed a bit more in rotating each cylinder to squish/TDC as you raise boost to make more power. Larger turbos will ramp harder and longer and have much higher peaks. This is one reason why we put dowels on timing gears or better fasteners to hold all this together along with performance timing belts and such... Your K03 would not require as much, even when pushed, then, lets say a 35R.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I ordered one of those testers. When I get it I'm going to see what tension my IE manual kit + gates belt is at with the prescribed 90 deg twist. Then, when I get a chance, I'll try to get a measurement on a hydro set up. If anyone is up for buying their own tool and testing their hydro set up for belt tension, that would be awesome.


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## burnthesheep (May 4, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Power has plenty to do with what kind of load it puts on just about everything that rotates on the engine. I'll give you one of several examples... What you are doing when you add power to the equation is that you are raising volumetric efficiency. When you do this without, lets say, raising the displacement of the motor is by cramming more volume into the cylinders per stroke via larger turbocharger or more boost. This, invariably, raises cylinder pressures which elevates the combustion pressures as well. The timing belt will be stressed a bit more in rotating each cylinder to squish/TDC as you raise boost to make more power. Larger turbos will ramp harder and longer and have much higher peaks. This is one reason why we put dowels on timing gears or better fasteners to hold all this together along with performance timing belts and such... Your K03 would not require as much, even when pushed, then, lets say a 35R.


The timing belt ONLY rotates the water pump and the cylinder head. 

The water pump puts force on the belt from moving the water, and the cylinder head from the force the valvesprings exert on the cams.

The additional force to rotate a head at a given constant RPM in a 100hp car vs. a 1000hp car ONLY has to deal with the cam profile and the stiffness of the springs.

In either case, the faster you accelerate the belt from one RPM to another, the greater the force on the belt.

ANY car can go from 2500RPM to 8000RPM in the blink of an eye doing a burnout. Whether that car has 150hp or 1500hp.

A 1000whp car will still accelerate slower from 2500RPM to 8000RPM than a 150hp car doing a 1st gear burnout on a clutch drop.

All the fancy go-fast bits have nothing to do with the force on the timing belt until you get into higher "race" RPM levels.

You're missing the point: the pistons/rods, compression, crank, transmission has to propel a 3000lb car forward under great force. The timing belt ONLY has to rotate the water pump and the cylinder head's cam profile through the force of the valvesprings. It has the same job regardless of what go-fast bits you have on the car.

I'm right.......company I worked for was helping design a timing belt durability test machine for Dayco.

That's just the way that it is. :beer:

The reason you see that nasty huge belt on top fuel dragsters for the blower? Because it takes 150hp to turn that huge blower. It doesn't take much to turn a cam through some springs and pump some water.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

At some point in time, during the compression stroke,all the valves are closed or close to it unless you have serious overlap and duration on the cam. You know, as you approach tdc, the deadspot and even atdc events. At 150% VE, the timing belt is working a tad harder at this particular moment then an engine at 100% VE. Yes, the parasitic loss at waterpump and friction from turning the cams will add to this too. We are not talking belt snapping differences but small differences that attribute to wear.

There is also a large disparity of timing belt size and tooth profile that the OEM's incorporated as power output has increased over the years...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Added to FAQ under timing belt


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## cwyamz (Aug 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> I'm running an IE manual tensioner kit and I have been having some issue with the tensioners being/becoming noisy.


Could you describe the noise the tensioner makes and under what conditions? I'd like to be on the look out for this.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

cwyamz said:


> Could you describe the noise the tensioner makes and under what conditions? I'd like to be on the look out for this.


It's a whine sound and is caused by overtightening the belt.

The kicker is the exact belt tension is not documented as VW spec'd the 90 degree twist for the conti belt...not the Gates Blue Racing Belt.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

cwyamz said:


> Could you describe the noise the tensioner makes and under what conditions? I'd like to be on the look out for this.





groggory said:


> It's a whine sound and is caused by overtightening the belt.
> 
> The kicker is the exact belt tension is not documented as VW spec'd the 90 degree twist for the conti belt...not the Gates Blue Racing Belt.


You jumped the gun there answering for me bud and answered the question wrong. Plus your statement makes it seem as if I had the wrong amount of tension on the belt which is *FALSE*. The belt had the perfect amount of tension and I know that to be fact. Over tensioned belts that make a wining noise don't last 20k before breaking. 

The noise I was experiencing was a chirping coming from the tensioner itself and not belt noise. It is very common for tensioners to make noise, I deal with it daily and replace them daily on various makes and models. 

Just so the time line is understood...

I installed the kit and the tensioner made noise same day(chirping after warmed up).
I called IE and they tried to brush it off as install error. I explained that I was a trained VW tech and have plenty of experience with that tensioner set-up. I also explained I torqued the nut with a $500+ digital torque wrench. They essentially were telling me they weren't going to send me replacement. I told them fine I would never buy from them again and they looked at the chunk of change I have spent and decided to send me a tensioner. I installed the replacement tensioner and the noise went away for about a solid year and it started back up again. I have read multiple accounts of others having the chirping noise. 

I then purchased a tensioner thru a third party because it was all I could get at the time and it was bunk/cheap so I refused to install it.
I ordered a factory 16v tensioner and had the dealer deliver it. I installed it and a few days later and it started making the noise again but very very minor. Getting pretty fed up with this I ordered another tensioner and a new gates belt(for sh_ts and giggles) and planned to install it. I went over the entire system making sure everything was legit and it seemed so. Trying to figure out why I was dealing with noise on my car and no other cars I have installed the kit on I started looking at the recommend torque for the tensioner nut. VW recommends 33ftlbs for that nut on 16v cars and IE was recommending 44ftlbs. I choose to go with IE and torque to 44 all 3 times. After having issues I called IE to chat and they told me they were having issues with 44 so they reduced the torque to 33( the instructions that come with the kit say 44 and they made a video that says 33). So my plan was to toss the new tensioner on and the new belt, torque to 33 and hope for the best and if I still had noise I was gonna ditch the entire set-up and go back to factory. I got very busy and the tensioner and belt are sitting on a shelf at the shop as I never freed up time. All of this has been going on over about 3yrs. When the car died the first thing I checked was that the tensioner spun freely while it was still torqued to 44ftlbs and it did. The slightly noisy(once warmed up) tensioner has been on the car a few months. 

Sooo...at this point I think the smartest thing to do is ditch the entire set-up and go back to factory or at minimum ditch the gates belt.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I jumped the gun. My bad.

With your background I think you're the perfect candidate for seeing what can be wrong with this set up.

The fact your tensioner still spun in particular is very interesting.

Just a thought, put a random belt on that tensioner, chuck something on a drill motor to spin the belt, and see if the chirp was coming from the tensioner.

Did the IE slack piece roller still spin fine? Do your cam and crank gears look like they're in good shape?

If nothing bound up (head, block, water pump, or tensioner) then perhaps the belt just let go.

If that's the case, maybe gates will help you
https://ww2.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=10963


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

burnthesheep said:


> (Snip )
> 
> 1: All the fancy go-fast bits have nothing to do with the force on the timing belt until you get into higher "race" RPM levels.
> 
> 2: The reason you see that nasty huge belt on top fuel dragsters for the blower? Because it takes 150hp to turn that huge blower. It doesn't take much to turn a cam through some springs and pump some water. (/Snip)


1: High Performance engines with increased valve spring pressures and aggressive cams with faster ramp profiles and more lift place a LOT greater loads on a T/Belt than a stock engine, even at the same revs. This becomes really evident on engines that have the ability to utilize very high lift cams like a push-rod Rocker Arm ( SBC or SBF ) or a finger followers ( Most Japanese engines ). The cam shaft rotational forces on a Pro-Stock Drag Engine or NASCAR Cup engines are extreme...even at RPM ranges from idle to normal passenger car RPM's ( max 6,000 ).

Turbo VW/Audi's have modest cam lifts and profiles due to the nature of the engine design. But HP valve springs and HP cams will still increase the loadings on the T-Belt to a certain extent. 

Then there are harmonics that come into play. Valve train harmonics from aggressive cam profiles can create extreme shock loads. These shock loads are transmitted to all parts of the valve-train, including the T-Belt, T-Chain or Timing gears. Harmonics can wreak havoc on valve-trains and are one of the most difficult elements to control with when developing high performance cam profiles. 


2: Just an FYI. It takes closer to 500-600hp to turn a Top Fuel blower at full boost ( 4.5 to 5 Bar or 66 to 74 psi ). Readily available info from NHRA engine sites: :beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Considering the experience of the OP and the detailed timelineof the install, the only conclusion that I can come to is that the T-Belt was not up to the task for whatever reason. Manufacturing defects do happen, even to the best of companies. 

Just a side thought. Pirelli had terrible problems with it's Formula 1 tires de-laminating last year. It all happened when they changed the construction from steel belts to Kevlar. The Kevlar belts could not dissipate heat as well as the steel belts or Nylon belts. There was an article in Race Car engineering about this. I wonder if the same problems relating to temperature, could be causing failures in the Gates T-Belts. Something to further research....


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

groggory said:


> I jumped the gun. My bad.
> 
> With your background I think you're the perfect candidate for seeing what can be wrong with this set up.
> 
> ...


No problem at all sir.:beer:
I replaced the idler pulley last go around and it is free spinning.
WP free spinning
Tensioner free spinning... 
Cam and crank gears look good.
Crank spins free.
Removed valve cover and everything looks good. Cams are perfectly timed at TDC lol
I will get to the bottom of this for sure. I have a newborn so I am trying to juggle but I should have the engine completely broke down by mid week.
I'm not one to jump the gun and point finders so we shall see how it plays out. 
I know it was the tensioner making noise because I removed the serpentine belt and listened to the tbelt tensioner thru a mechanics stethoscope and you could hear it. The idler pulley is hard to get to with a stethoscope so I replaced it to rule it out...
I will report back with findings. :thumbup::beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> 1: High Performance engines with increased valve spring pressures and aggressive cams with faster ramp profiles and more lift place a LOT greater loads on a T/Belt than a stock engine, even at the same revs. This becomes really evident on engines that have the ability to utilize very high lift cams like a push-rod Rocker Arm ( SBC or SBF ) or a finger followers ( Most Japanese engines ). The cam shaft rotational forces on a Pro-Stock Drag Engine or NASCAR Cup engines are extreme...even at RPM ranges from idle to normal passenger car RPM's ( max 6,000 ).
> 
> Turbo VW/Audi's have modest cam lifts and profiles due to the nature of the engine design. But HP valve springs and HP cams will still increase the loadings on the T-Belt to a certain extent.
> 
> ...


This is all true :thumbup: But even stock, t-belt service life is determined by quite a few things and power part of the equation. The RS6 for example, 450hp, timing belt service interval is 35k miles while the somewhat equivalent NA motor is around 85k. I dont think VW's recommended timing belt change interval would be 85-100k if it came from the factory with 350hp...


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Chickenman35 said:


> Considering the experience of the OP and the detailed timelineof the install, the only conclusion that I can come to is that the T-Belt was not up to the task for whatever reason. Manufacturing defects do happen, even to the best of companies.
> 
> Just a side thought. Pirelli had terrible problems with it's Formula 1 tires de-laminating last year. It all happened when they changed the construction from steel belts to Kevlar. The Kevlar belts could not dissipate heat as well as the steel belts or Nylon belts. There was an article in Race Car engineering about this. I wonder if the same problems relating to temperature, could be causing failures in the Gates T-Belts. Something to further research....


I agree sir and thank you for that tid bit of information. Defects and failures do happen and if I can't come up with any other reason for failure I will be forced to believe it is the belt. I will still most likely ditch the manual tensioner in the process. I understand you have to pay to play and I'm not mad and don't mind rebuilding things but with a new born and work piling up everywhere, time is one thing I don't have much of right now. :beer:


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

groggory said:


> I ordered one of those testers. When I get it I'm going to see what tension my IE manual kit + gates belt is at with the prescribed 90 deg twist. Then, when I get a chance, I'll try to get a measurement on a hydro set up. If anyone is up for buying their own tool and testing their hydro set up for belt tension, that would be awesome.


I talked to someone from Gates today about tension specifications for the T306RB Gates Racing timing belt and that tool (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUTAGS/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_xW6Ptb1FF3AP7). Here's what he had to say:


> Chris,
> 
> Thanks for contacting Gates. Rolando forwarded me your email as I am our resident Audi specialist. The tool that you reference cannot be used on timing belts. We offer two types of Krikit gauges, one for V-Belts and one for V-Ribbed belts or serpentine belts. The link you referenced is for the V-Belt Krikit gauge. Unfortunately neither of these can be used with timing belts. All of our timing belts are OE Exact Replacement Timing Belts and therefore we always defer to the OE service manual for tension specs. We do not research or publish tension specs for each timing belt that we sell. That being said, we do offer a Timing Belt Tension Tester, but please note this should only be used for reference purposes only and should not be taken as fact. It is a tester that measures the amount of deflection on the timing belt based on the width of the belt. Again, since the only input to the tester is the belt’s top width, this tool can only be used for reference purposes. The Gates part number of this tool is 91000. We also sell a Sonic Tension Meter that measures the frequency of the belt, which in turn tells you the tension on the belt. However, this spec is again provided by the OE, we do not provide any tension specs. I apologize that we could not be of further assistance but please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thanks and have a great day.


Also, from watching the video on how to use the Gates 91107 Tension Tester tool, it seems like it might be pretty hard to get proper tension readings anyway since as you push down on the belt, won't the hydraulic tensioner continue to push up to keep the slack out?


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

groggory said:


> I ordered one of those testers. When I get it I'm going to see what tension my IE manual kit + gates belt is at with the prescribed 90 deg twist. Then, when I get a chance, I'll try to get a measurement on a hydro set up. If anyone is up for buying their own tool and testing their hydro set up for belt tension, that would be awesome.


i would test my hydro set up but my head is already off the car :/ so my belt isnt there now and now we are putting a gates belt with ie manual tensioner on...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Thanks for following up with Gates.

Sounds like I should return the tool. Tons of variables and unknowns here its turning out


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

wow, lots to take in about this belt snapping/ tensioner chat....... i have a few combos of timing belt and tension sitting on the shelf, i need to pick a combo and install it onto my motor. 


maybe i missed it, what are the specs on the cams/head/valve train?


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Any kind of chemicals used in these engine bays? Cleaner, degreaser, etc? Road salts? Extreme heat or cold, perhaps. Storage and/or shelf life? In another thread here, engine cleaner was pointed at as potentially causing a particular brand poly motor mount failure. 

Maybe there's another variable in this equation.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

carsluTT said:


> wow, lots to take in about this belt snapping/ tensioner chat....... i have a few combos of timing belt and tension sitting on the shelf, i need to pick a combo and install it onto my motor. :confused
> 
> maybe i missed it, what are the specs on the cams/head/valve train?


Smallport head with stock valve train and cams. Initially when I installed the kit I was on a bigport with intake cam and after about year I ditched it and went back smallport.:beer:



Brake Weight said:


> Any kind of chemicals used in these engine bays? Cleaner, degreaser, etc? Road salts? Extreme heat or cold, perhaps. Storage and/or shelf life? In another thread here, engine cleaner was pointed at as potentially causing a particular brand poly motor mount failure.
> 
> Maybe there's another variable in this equation.


No chemicals used ever, no road salts around here, weather is far from extreme here. Car is garage kept and when I drive it to work it goes into the shop with me. Daily driven...:beer:


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

carsluTT said:


> wow, lots to take in about this belt snapping/ tensioner chat.......


X2



groggory said:


> I ordered one of those testers. When I get it I'm going to see what tension my IE manual kit + gates belt is at with the prescribed 90 deg twist. Then, when I get a chance, I'll try to get a measurement on a hydro set up. If anyone is up for buying their own tool and testing their hydro set up for belt tension, that would be awesome.


I have an IE manual kit with a stock T-belt. I might get said tool to see what tension mine is at then we can cross reference with what my buddies stock tensioner+stock belt is at.




groggory said:


> Thanks for following up with Gates.
> 
> Sounds like I should return the tool. Tons of variables and unknowns here its turning out


Why return it?
Even though Gates does not have a prescribed tension, they still go by the OE spec. Using the tool will still tell you what your gates belt is at.
Seems like something we would benefit from, no?


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Twopnt016v, What timing gears do you have on the crank and cam?

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here, but maybe there could be a variable in there as to how much or how little they deflect with temperature. Or perhaps the alloy(s) they are made of does not agree with the composite the belt is made of.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Ouch. Did I understand correctly: You have re-tensioned the belt a couple times when swapping tensioners around? Not sure how susceptible these belts are to a flux in tension over a period of time, but just a thought.

I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that the OE tensioner for these engines are hydro as it relates to your issue/setup. When gates develops a racing belt for an application, type of tensioner doesn't change the overall construction of the belt provided length needed and/or tensioner placement dont change. If the 1.8t happened to of had a manual tensioner way back when and transitioned to a hydro tensioner later, the belt would be the exact same.


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Conti belt, I change it out every 15k along with the hydro tensioner. Been running 28-35psi on my stroker for 2 years and haven't had one scare. Buddy of mine has the IE setup with gates belt on his stroker TT but only has roughly 4k on the motor. I'm going to be watching this closely, last thing he needs is a belt give way. I was always iffy about the manual setup cause it reminds my of how B series Honda motors are tensioned.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chris164935 said:


> I talked to someone from Gates today about tension specifications for the T306RB Gates Racing timing belt and that tool (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUTAGS/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_xW6Ptb1FF3AP7). Here's what he had to say:
> 
> Also, from watching the video on how to use the Gates 91107 Tension Tester tool, it seems like it might be pretty hard to get proper tension readings anyway since as you push down on the belt, won't the hydraulic tensioner continue to push up to keep the slack out?


Based on that conversation with Gates, my Gates 91107 Belt Tension Tester will not produce measurements worth a damn. To get reasonably good measurements I need Gates 91000 to measure. I'm cool with investing $11.50 for the Gates 91107 but I'm not ok with investing $330 for the Gates 91000.

Sorry guys, I'm going to flake out of taking the measurement.


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

There is always the vw210 tool. I see those around for $100.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Nevaeh_Speed said:


> There is always the vw210 tool. I see those around for $100.


Nice tool. I'm not going to buy it though. Maybe someone else wants to


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## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

maybe I'm wrong but it looks like everyone here who's reported a failure is running a stroker.

There was a comment on the second page about harmonics, and I know the strokers are good deal more prone to secondary and tertiary vibrations. I assume that the Gates belts are stiffer, is it possible that in the stroker motor, the crank rotation is adding stress that the a more flexible conti belt can absorb, and a stiffer, more brittle gates belt can't handle?

I'm not that familiar with either thing (stroker or gates) but it looks to my eyes like there's a correlation there between the stroker motor and the gates failure.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

rstolz said:


> maybe I'm wrong but it looks like everyone here who's reported a failure is running a stroker.
> 
> There was a comment on the second page about harmonics, and I know the strokers are good deal more prone to secondary and tertiary vibrations. I assume that the Gates belts are stiffer, is it possible that in the stroker motor, the crank rotation is adding stress that the a more flexible conti belt can absorb, and a stiffer, more brittle gates belt can't handle?
> 
> I'm not that familiar with either thing (stroker or gates) but it looks to my eyes like there's a correlation there between the stroker motor and the gates failure.


Not to mention that a stroker motor will generally have faster torque onset assuming they are using similar sized turbos to non stroker motors.


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

groggory said:


> Nice tool. I'm not going to buy it though. Maybe someone else wants to


I am definitely interested in the Klann Belt Tension Gauge tool, but it is practically useless without the tension specs. According to that excerpt, we need to know "the deflection of the timing belt in MM for a given known force N or kp" of our 1.8T engine.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chris164935 said:


> I am definitely interested in the Klann Belt Tension Gauge tool, but it is practically useless without the tension specs. According to that excerpt, we need to know "the deflection of the timing belt in MM for a given known force N or kp" of our 1.8T engine.


If you buy the tool I would recommend starting with these tests...

1) Test a newly installed hydro setup with the conti belt

2) Test a newly installed hydro setup with the conti belt

3) Test a newly installed manual setup with tension set by an experienced tech following the 90 deg twist rule with the conti belt

4) Test a newly installed manual setup with tension set by an experienced tech following the 90 deg twist rule with the gates belt

If the world is perfect then all three tension readings should be the same. 

I hypothesize that the hydro tensions will be higher than the manual tensions.
I hypothesize that both belts on the hydro setup will be the same reading. 
I hypothesize that each belt on the manual setup will have a different reading. 
I hypothesize that the conti belt will have a higher reading than the gates belt on the manual setup.

Time will tell if anyone is up for doing the testing.


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

rstolz said:


> maybe I'm wrong but it looks like everyone here who's reported a failure is running a stroker.
> 
> There was a comment on the second page about harmonics, and I know the strokers are good deal more prone to secondary and tertiary vibrations. I assume that the Gates belts are stiffer, is it possible that in the stroker motor, the crank rotation is adding stress that the a more flexible conti belt can absorb, and a stiffer, more brittle gates belt can't handle?
> 
> I'm not that familiar with either thing (stroker or gates) but it looks to my eyes like there's a correlation there between the stroker motor and the gates failure.


I do wonder if the stroker thing has an impact. . Were any of the "failure" motors balanced? Or fitted with fluid dampers?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

My buddies with the setup was balanced and so far so good, but to be fair he needs another 15k to even be close to the OP's belt lifespan. I showed him this thread and he already wants to remove the setup, then I showed him all the hydro fails. His response







. I laughed and said buy a VR6 that has chains that even break.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

groggory said:


> If you buy the tool I would recommend starting with these tests...
> 
> 1) Test a newly installed hydro setup with the conti belt
> 
> ...


:wave::thumbup:


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## nilreb (Mar 17, 2012)

these blue gates racing belt had a bad rep a few years ago.. 

how do i know i won't get the old stock? to be on the safe side, 
i opted for a regular conti belt instead

the conti was a little rigid and it was made in mexico. i decided to have it installed anyway.

result: vibration from the engine, 3 months later, it was still loud. my uncle who's a mechanic said it was the belt. 

i had it replaced with the regular US made gates. i was worried because the material was softer and flimsier than the conti. 

the noise and vibration went away. 2,500 miles and counting. so far so good.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

nilreb said:


> these blue gates racing belt had a bad rep a few years ago..
> 
> how do i know i won't get the old stock? to be on the safe side,
> i opted for a regular conti belt instead
> ...


I have the history of the belt in the faq

I think you are mistaken. The gates blue has no such history


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Twopnt016v, What timing gears do you have on the crank and cam?


Stock gears.:beer:



STOICH said:


> Ouch. Did I understand correctly: You have re-tensioned the belt a couple times when swapping tensioners around? Not sure how susceptible these belts are to a flux in tension over a period of time, but just a thought.


VW recommends checking and re-tensioning of the belt over time. :beer:



rstolz said:


> maybe I'm wrong but it looks like everyone here who's reported a failure is running a stroker.


I'm not stroker.:beer:



Nevaeh_Speed said:


> My buddies with the setup was balanced and so far so good, but to be fair he needs another 15k to even be close to the OP's belt lifespan. I showed him this thread and he already wants to remove the setup, then I showed him all the hydro fails. His response
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha...I went with the gates belt for a extra piece of mind and it didn't work to my favor.:thumbdown: Just make sure when you check the belt that you try to pull the teeth off the edge with your thumb nail in various locations(both inside and out). I looked at my belt once a week but never really checked for teeth peeling off which is what is happening with my belt.:beer: 

All and all it appears to be a belt issue. If the belt failed because it was re-tensioned a few times due to tensioner issues the belt isn't worth sh_t in my mind. I have re-tensioned stock belts on 16v cars plenty of times. Maybe if the tensioner would have kept quite I wouldn't be in position so I plan to go back to stock belt and hydro


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I really dont think its a belt issue. I would surmise that since it stripped the belt of its teeth, it had something to do with inadequate tension at certain points (cold starts and such) that ultimately did the belt in. The belt is designed for less tooth deflection and give under normal mesh conditions. It would have less give as the fibers that hold it together is much more rigid. I think Gates claims 300%, so under normal tension when load is distributed evenly on gear, it would do its job. The same would eventually happen and has on an oem belt under the same conditions.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I really dont think its a belt issue. I would surmise that since it stripped the belt of its teeth, it had something to do with inadequate tension at certain points (cold starts and such) that ultimately did the belt in. The belt is designed for less tooth deflection and give under normal mesh conditions. It would have less give as the fibers that hold it together is much more rigid. I think Gates claims 300%, so under normal tension when load is distributed evenly on gear, it would do its job. The same would eventually happen and has on an oem belt under the same conditions.


I don't necessarily disagree but I do feel the belt had proper tension(as much as possible with the manual set-up). I understand the change in tension with temperature as well. This somewhat co-signs what you've been saying about manual tensioners for a while now. So if it were you, would you even attempt to use a gates belt with the hydro or would you just fall back on a stock belt. I ask because I already have another gates but am reluctant to use it...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I have and continue to use all belts with good quality hydro tensioners. We have many 400+whp in the fold running just these normal setups.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I have and continue to use all belts with good quality hydro tensioners. We have many 400+whp in the fold running just these normal setups.


So I guess that means you use gates and stock belts?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Yes, depending on the application. The only problem I've had with the gates is the picture that I posted on this thread and it was with a manual tensioner with me having no knowledge of how it was tightened. It snapped into two and that is also a belt tension issue. I know there are many advocates on both sides of the fence with enough evidence to support both sides but from what I've seen as a ratio, its pretty much a landslide


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Another potential option that I have been looking at recently is the tensioner setup from an FSI motor. Seems like a better unit than the 16v tensioner. The roller part isn't 2 pieces. It also has markings that show you where to set the tension to when installing the roller:








(Borrowed this image from here: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135872)

Also, from what I could find, it appears the only issue 2.0T FSI guys are/were having is/were belt failures due to wrong recommended change intervals.


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

I did the belt on my wifes fsi. Easy as pie to do. Just like pictured above, you just line it up and done.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Chris164935 said:


> Another potential option that I have been looking at recently is the tensioner setup from an FSI motor. Seems like a better unit than the 16v tensioner. The roller part isn't 2 pieces. It also has markings that show you where to set the tension to when installing the roller:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, this is the preload mentioned earlier in the thread. There is also a completely OEM 1.8T manual solution with said preload that is available.


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

First of all sorry to the OP for his troubles. I really don't like seeing threads like this, i have a gates belt ready to go on my engine build... the more i read the more worried i'm getting about running with a manual tensioner.
As far as the hydro set-ups are concerned..... are the majority of failures non genuine parts ???? anybody had a genuine VW one fail ? i'm just thinking along the lines of a sh*tty pattern part starts failing and gives all hydro's a bad name... suddenly all hydro's are classed as unreliable ?

Just last week while i was watching a video on youtube of the IE dyno of the bonneville build i was shocked by the amount of resonance in the timing belt at high RPM.... i thought hhhhmmm it would be better to try and support the belt between the cam pulley and water pump. 

After reading above about the FSI tensioner set-up i did a quick google image search and low and behold the FSI uses a small roller between the cam pulley & water pump..... i'm gonna look into this and see if it can be fitted to the 1.8T.... i may also order a FSI tensioner and see how feasible it is to make it fit.

For me the whole 90 degree turn system to check tension is open to massive levels of inaccuracies.... i bet you give 10 people the chance to tension the belt and you'd get 10 different amounts of tension. 

I'm gonna do some belt tension testing on my engine when i drop the head on (in a couple of weeks) as I have access to a Ultrasonic belt tension tester which i use frequently at work. I'm planning on bringing it home and in a couple of weeks when i install my Gates belt testing the frequency of the belt with a easy 90 degree turn and a hard 90 degree turn.... i'm betting the differences in Hz will be interesting. 
I may by a OEM tensioner set-up and test that.. that'll give a good idea of belt tension in Hz required of a manual set-up.

One thing that i noticed when handling my Gates is how stiff it is.... as it's stiffer than a conti then surely the 90 degree test isn't a very good gauge for tension as it will take more effort to turn it 90 degrees therefore the tension in the belt would have to be less to obtain the same 90 degree deflection. 

Also just a heads up guys there is a Conti & Gates iPhone app to test belt tension in frequency using the microphone... I've just downloaded the Conti one but can't test it here..... i dunno how accurate they are but i'll pitch it up against my proper frequency tester next week at work. Maybe someone is bored and give one a testing to see what frequency you get ? 
You normally test midway along the longest unsupported length, just twang the belt and hold the tester near it.

Interesting stuff here :thumbup:


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

Grahams81 said:


> First of all sorry to the OP for his troubles. I really don't like seeing threads like this, i have a gates belt ready to go on my engine build... the more i read the more worried i'm getting about running with a manual tensioner.
> As far as the hydro set-ups are concerned..... are the majority of failures non genuine parts ???? anybody had a genuine VW one fail ? i'm just thinking along the lines of a sh*tty pattern part starts failing and gives all hydro's a bad name... suddenly all hydro's are classed as unreliable ?
> 
> Just last week while i was watching a video on youtube of the IE dyno of the bonneville build i was shocked by the amount of resonance in the timing belt at high RPM.... i thought hhhhmmm it would be better to try and support the belt between the cam pulley and water pump.
> ...


im looking forward to your results im in the same boat as u about to install ie manual tensioner with gates racing belt and this thread is very unnerving.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

For me as a DD / trackday car I think hydro tensioner and gates belt is a good option. Change both before every season.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

i really dig the fsi setup, never seen one before. maybe some sort of mix of fsi and IE setup will be an better long term fix


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Grahams81 said:


> After reading above about the FSI tensioner set-up i did a quick google image search and low and behold the FSI uses a small roller between the cam pulley & water pump..... i'm gonna look into this and see if it can be fitted to the 1.8T.... i may also order a FSI tensioner and see how feasible it is to make it fit.
> 
> Also just a heads up guys there is a Conti & Gates iPhone app to test belt tension in frequency using the microphone... I've just downloaded the Conti one but can't test it here..... i dunno how accurate they are but i'll pitch it up against my proper frequency tester next week at work. Maybe someone is bored and give one a testing to see what frequency you get ?
> You normally test midway along the longest unsupported length, just twang the belt and hold the tester near it.
> ...


Is this the 1st time you've posted outside of your thread? lol.

I was thinking about adding a roller between my water pump nad cam pulley as well. I have a spare 06a block to test fit it to. but thats all I have, a bare block... And a crank timing belt pulley.

I'll find a friend with an iphone and run the test on my IE tensioner with conti belt.



carsluTT said:


> i really dig the fsi setup, never seen one before. maybe some sort of mix of fsi and IE setup will be an better long term fix


You beat me to it.
Definitely interested in this.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

Ive got my motor on the stand ready to get the timing belt replaced. anyone happen to have an old FSI tensioner i could test fit with an IE setup? im not quiet ready to blow 70 buks on a new FSI part just for test fitment. a used tensioner from a car that had its belt done will be just fine for test fitting things.


this is the best photo i can find of this tensioner in use.










its not that hard to getup the idler on the long side between the cam and water pump but......... is it worth the work? what would some guesses be....... i am guessing we don't have enough belt to allow for the same amount of deflection and keep the timing correct but maybe keeping a roller in that region that applies a slight bit of pressure could help control belt fitment. i know its been talked about how these newer motors have this roller but is it worth having.... hum.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

carsluTT said:


> Ive got my motor on the stand ready to get the timing belt replaced. anyone happen to have an old FSI tensioner i could test fit with an IE setup? im not quiet ready to blow 70 buks on a new FSI part just for test fitment.


There you go guys. A guy with a motor on a stand that is willing to get this fitted and share results. All ya gotta do is send him a part or send him money.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

groggory said:


> There you go guys. A guy with a motor on a stand that is willing to get this fitted and share results. All ya gotta do is send him a part or send him money.



Maybe Arnold can help with the part # for the FSI style tensioner that works on a 1.8t. Am I the only one that noticed that he mentioned it in the last post?


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> Maybe Arnold can help with the part # for the FSI style tensioner that works on a 1.8t. Am I the only one that noticed that he mentioned it in the last post?


I read that to. Just wasn't sure if it was me misunderstanding it or not


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Here you go...

Let me know


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Here you go...
> 
> Let me know


Would you mind posting the part numbers and any tips for the early testers of this idea?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

There are no individual part numbers for this. Its an audi application so we would just need to convert over to their fastening system. You have to purchase the entire kit or nothing.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

okay, so what is the whole setups part #..


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

06b198119a. Wanted to make sure it all works before posting


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I'll donate 10 bucks to the cause as long as I'm not the only one


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Wow, this sucks big time Matt, I didn't know this happened!


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

thanks for the part #. now to hone my Google skills a bit more as my first attempt didnt find any for sale.


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Looks like a pretty nice setup. I actually ended up just getting a new front main seal plate that comes on the FSI motors. Bolted right up and sealed nicely; also it provides the roller that sits below the tensioner (as you can see in the picture on page 3).


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris164935 said:


> Looks like a pretty nice setup. I actually ended up just getting a new front main seal plate that comes on the FSI motors. Bolted right up and sealed nicely; also it provides the roller that sits below the tensioner (as you can see in the picture on page 3).


You used an FSI Front main seal on your 1.8t? What engine code? how's it fit?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

carsluTT said:


> thanks for the part #. now to hone my Google skills a bit more as my first attempt didnt find any for sale.


It needs a step down stud and nut to work. I can supply these all day as long as stock holds up. Yes, there's very little info about them... I supply and stock replacement parts for our customers and ran into these almost by accident. These are not expensive either


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> It needs a step down stud and nut to work. I can supply these all day as long as stock holds up. Yes, there's very little info about them... I supply and stock replacement parts for our customers and ran into these almost by accident. These are not expensive either


sounds good. how much do all the needed parts cost?.... i dont see them on your website. 

looks like my NIB IE manual kit is about ready hit the classifieds.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

hit me up at [email protected]


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> hit me up at [email protected]


sent!.... thanks for the help trying something new.

update, kits 175 via pagparts. not bad, about the same as the IE setup. 


now off to the classifieds goes the IE setup, then ill give this OE setup a try.


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> You used an FSI Front main seal on your 1.8t? What engine code? how's it fit?


Yeah. The one I have is basically the same as the 1.8t front main seal; the only difference is that the FSI front main seal has a piece that goes up and provides a roller for the timing belt (on a 1.8t, this roller is part of the hydraulic tensioner). I believe all the bolt locations are the same. There is only 1 extra bolt for the FSI front main seal, but there is a hole on the block for it. The part # is 06D 103 153. It is a little pricey, but I was able to get mine for a good price from a friend.


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

Not trying to be that guy, but doesnt IE's accessory roller for their manual tensioner setup do the same thing?
From what i'm seeing it locates it in the same spot, and you don't need to deal with the front main seal.
Still a cool find however!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Maybe ie can extend their roller piece so we get an upper roller, lower roller and an fsi style tensioner.

I don't like the hydro tensioner, but I'm not thrilled about the manual tensioner either.

Maybe the 1.8t will get the best of both whirls


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

The upper roller's main purpose is to divert the belt path so it doesnt rub on the corner of the head on the FSI. The tensioner that I posted has correct depth also so you're not spacing out a pulley that doesnt belong on the motor.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I remember the topic being brought up earlier in this thread about belt oscillations, particularly between the long span of cam and water pump gears; and of particular note in stroker and odd rod ratio motors. I thought the fsi upper roller may be able to split that large span and perhaps change the oscillations to a more desirable higher frequency.



I'm talking a lot of conjecture here. Engine dynamics are very complex and not at all my specialty.


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> Not trying to be that guy, but doesnt IE's accessory roller for their manual tensioner setup do the same thing?
> From what i'm seeing it locates it in the same spot, and you don't need to deal with the front main seal.
> Still a cool find however!


Pretty much. I needed a new front mail seal though as my original one got lost when I moved. Also, it's a nice piece and great for those who like an OEM look...


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

carsluTT said:


> sent!.... thanks for the help trying something new.
> 
> update, kits 175 via pagparts. not bad, about the same as the IE setup.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to hearing your results on your set up from Arnold, I'm really curious how the FSI tensioner actually works, never seen one in person or had a chance to play with one...

I'll probably change over this winter from the manual setup to the FSI tensioner


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

A while back i mentioned you can download an app for iPhone to measure belt tension in Hz... (frequency) 

Last week at work i pitted it against my real ultrasonic tester and it was surprisingly good. 

The timing belt in question was fitted to one of our machines but the aim of this test was to see how accurate the I-phone app is....if it was accurate then it opens the doors for the masses to accurately set belt tensions on Manual set-ups once some thorough testing has been done to workout the tension of an OEM hydro set-up.

The belt i choose is normally tensioned to 100hz, anybody in the know will tell you thats uber tight for a timing belt (the belt is made with steel wire bands in for strength) thats about 1/8 turn of this belt...

So first up here is my belt tester I use all the time at work - 










It's from Germany.... so you know its good :laugh:

Twanged the belt a few times and got a reading of 97hz 










I then tried it with the Conti belt app (not selecting any belt type.... just testing the hz) it was quite hard to test as there was lots of back ground noise (this was done in a production factory with noises of around 80db)...so after playing with the app i found i could change the sensitivity to account for background noise. 
I then did it a few times and got readings of 97-98-100 etc so pretty damn accurate really. 










I checked some lower frequency belts around the 45hz and 50hz mark and the app worked fine too (this is more the range of a 90 degree turn belt)

I'll check in a quiet garage when i'm finished my cylinder head but so far results look positive. 

My plans are to test a FSI version from AL, source a new OEM Hydro and then do some experimenting with the manual set-up... i have both a new Conti & Gates so it'll be good to compare while the motor is in a stand. 

:beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Grahams81 said:


> A while back i mentioned you can download an app for iPhone to measure belt tension in Hz... (frequency)
> 
> Last week at work i pitted it against my real ultrasonic tester and it was surprisingly good.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

i didn't see it mentioned before, but that app is called "Tension2Go" on the App store.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

^ When you sit back and really think about it...the technology inside current Smart Phones is just frackin' amazing.

It's all Alien technology...I'm tellin ya


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Here's my Gates Racing belt after 40,000 kms... not sure how critical the cracks are as they weren't on the inside but I swapped it out for an OEM belt this weekend anyway - still have the IE manual tensioner so it'll be interesting to see how it holds up. Awesome app btw... thanks for posting!


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Grahams81 said:


> First of all sorry to the OP for his troubles. I really don't like seeing threads like this, i have a gates belt ready to go on my engine build... the more i read the more worried i'm getting about running with a manual tensioner.
> As far as the hydro set-ups are concerned..... are the majority of failures non genuine parts ???? anybody had a genuine VW one fail ? i'm just thinking along the lines of a sh*tty pattern part starts failing and gives all hydro's a bad name... suddenly all hydro's are classed as unreliable ?
> 
> Just last week while i was watching a video on youtube of the IE dyno of the bonneville build i was shocked by the amount of resonance in the timing belt at high RPM.... i thought hhhhmmm it would be better to try and support the belt between the cam pulley and water pump.
> ...


Great thinking graham 

Didn't know there was an app for frequency testing, will download it and also check how reliable it is in relation to one at work, will also make my life easier not having to hunt for the bloody thing whenever I need it 

Edit just read further on and saw your more recent post, still going to have a play though.....good find


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

ordered parts from pagparts today, Arnold was quick on the phone and said parts should ship today. 

i will test an gates (blue Kevlar) belt and conti belt with the oem spring loaded tensioner. plan is to install both set the tensioner to spec and try the phone app (frequency) with both belts while i have the motor on the stand. depending on how that goes i will then pick a belt and run it for a bit then retest. 

just noticed the app posted is for iphones......... is there an android version?


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

carsluTT said:


> ordered parts from pagparts today, Arnold was quick on the phone and said parts should ship today.
> 
> i will test an gates (blue Kevlar) belt and conti belt with the oem spring loaded tensioner. plan is to install both set the tensioner to spec and try the phone app (frequency) with both belts while i have the motor on the stand. depending on how that goes i will then pick a belt and run it for a bit then retest.
> 
> just noticed the app posted is for iphones......... is there an android version?


out****ing standing cant wait to see results!


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

No Droid version. I looked.


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Well, a 2 sec Google search found it in the Google play store. Tension2go and its free for android as well.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

max13b2 said:


> Well, a 2 sec Google search found it in the Google play store. Tension2go and its free for android as well.


awesome, i am trying to stick with the same stuff IE: source for the software in hopes it keeps results consistent. ill look into this "Google play store" to see what else is to be had....... im not the most web savvy person. hell i have yet to figure out the book of faces purpose.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

max13b2 said:


> Well, a 2 sec Google search found it in the Google play store. Tension2go and its free for android as well.


Ah, I searched for the continental application


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

So setting up the Tension2go app requires a bit of info that would be helpful to compile for everyone.

I don't have it all yet but the belt type is Synchrobelt, 23mm wide and the closest measurement I could get, with a tape measure in my engine bay, for the free span length was 240mm - maybe someone with an engine out of the car can double check that...

Continental's website lists the tooth profile as curvilinear but doesn't specify belt profile or pitch... 23mm wide is also 91/100's of an inch so the only profile that's close seems to be STD with a custom width. Then the pitch is automatically S8M which is the right spec - can anyone verify?

*BELT:* synchrobelt
*PROFILE:* std
*PITCH:* s8m
*WIDTH:* 23mm
*F.SPAN LENGTH:* 240mm?


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

awesome info! the parts are in the mail, i hope mid next week to spend an evening running back to back belt and tensioner test. 

i have these parts to test..........

gates kevlar belt 

conti belt

oe hydro tensioner setup

oe spring loaded manual tensioner setup

depending on how the motor on a stand testing goes i will install one of the belts and the oe spring loaded manual tensioner. i will check on it ever few 100 miles and make the decision if its going to be a long term use setup or not.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

carsluTT said:


> awesome info! the parts are in the mail, i hope mid next week to spend an evening running back to back belt and tensioner test.
> 
> i have these parts to test..........
> 
> ...


Looking forward to the results.

Any idea on how to retrofit the other roller between the cam gear and water pump?


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Looking forward to the results.
> 
> Any idea on how to retrofit the other roller between the cam gear and water pump?


i have been working on a few ideas, this weekend i plan to do a bit of programing on the cnc for an early design of said roller mount. :beer:


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

carsluTT said:


> awesome info! the parts are in the mail, i hope mid next week to spend an evening running back to back belt and tensioner test.
> 
> i have these parts to test..........
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Interesting to see what happens with this.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

carsluTT said:


> i have been working on a few ideas, this weekend i plan to do a bit of programing on the cnc for an early design of said roller mount. :beer:


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

installing Tension2go app now. testing of a conti belt, blue gates belt and INA-UK t-belt to take place tonight.

also did a lill cardboard mockup of the extra roller........ an issue was found that ill post photos off and we can discuss. not quiet a deal breaker but...... well photos to come. 

way too many combos on the market but these are what i have so i hope its a good place to start :beer:

edit.... the Tension2go app keeps crashing. i am using a sony xperia z2 that is all of 2 weeks old..... uninstall and reinstall didn't help.... :banghead:

what phones have people had luck with this app with?


well on with photos...........

here is the box from pagpart










whats inside the box










factory issue idle mount minus hydro cylinder










factory spring loaded tensioner










back side of spring loaded tensioner. see the off-set bolt hole, thsi is what the tensioner pivots around. also the bent tab gos into a frost plug hole in the side of the cylinder head. this is sort of a double retention system to help prevent the tensioner being able to let the belt slip if the spring fails or so i am guessing thats what is going on. from what i am seeings far anyone who could get this part and stud could swap them in place of the 16v roller in the IE kit and have the same setup as what this kit achieves. 










belt that comes in the kit from pagparts is not a conti or gates belt. its sort of a wild card in the mix of what i had planed to do.










new factory hydro tensioner, new conti belt, new roller and such. this setup is as oem as it gets.










here is a low tech version of the aux roller mount i have in mind. i was mid way thru programing the CNC when i realized there maybe a fitment issue so i stopped programing and made the cardboard template... 










turns out where the mid point is between the cam and water pump isnt such a great spot for an extra roller...... the cylinder head blocks proper roller to belt alignment. 










a better shot showing how the rib coasted into the head hits the aux roller. sure........ someone could remove material to make for perfect fitment but..... how many are willing to do this? 










sure i can set the roller up so it only covers 80% of the belt and that will probably be okay but................... i wonder if long term use this way could damage the belt and cause more problems than the roller will be fixing. 

and the blue gates race belt......... 










i am going to get my hands on a few different phones this week so i can get the conti app to work and get that part of data locked down.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

The app installed on my iPhone5 no prob...

Here's what I got from static belt tension... Then with the engine running...
 

Not overly confident in the readings with the engine running as there is other engine noise present but it will be interesting to compare with what others are getting. This is an OEM belt & manual tensioner > 90* twist...


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

who has had luck with an android phone using this app? so far my sony phone didnt work and the neighbors htc-1 also didnt work. i am holding off doing anything with the t-belt till i can test the oe hydro setup vs. this spring loaded setup.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

wanted to ask again if any android phone users have had luck with this app?...... i wont be able to touch the motor again for 12 days. once i am out in the shop next i hope ot get this app working and move forward with things.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Last check on my 07 2.5i subaru gates racing belt and it was shedding some material..........



That is a completely different application with weak valve springs, roller rockers and 4v per hole.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Just to give ppl a little bit of an update, just replaced a hydro setup with Gates for the OE manual tensioner with Gates. 25k miles on the previous belt but decided to swap it out while we are doing a cyl head swap and larger turbo upgrade. Belt with hydro was in good condition with no real signs of much wear other then the blue color wearing off a bit. What I did notice upon disassembly was how harsh the belt is on the aluminum timing gears (owner has an adjustable on there) as there is slight wear or erosion on the gears. Anyways, Upon full assembly and preloading of the belt tensioner on the OE manual setup with Gates belt, we noticed that 'belt twist' didnt come close to 90deg's. Its more like 30...


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Just to give ppl a little bit of an update, just replaced a hydro setup with Gates for the OE manual tensioner with Gates. 25k miles on the previous belt but decided to swap it out while we are doing a cyl head swap and larger turbo upgrade. Belt with hydro was in good condition with no real signs of much wear other then the blue color wearing off a bit. What I did notice upon disassembly was how harsh the belt is on the aluminum timing gears (owner has an adjustable on there) as there is slight wear or erosion on the gears. Anyways, Upon full assembly and preloading of the belt tensioner on the OE manual setup with Gates belt, we noticed that 'belt twist' didnt come close to 90deg's. Its more like 30...


Dang. Did you guys end up keeping the manual tensioner on after discovering the 30 degree twist, or did you go back and install a new hydraulic setup?

EDIT: I was able to get the Tension2Go app to install and run on my Samsung Galaxy S4. I'm on ATT and my phone has Android version 4.4.2.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

No, it was to demonstrate that the 30deg twist is more accurate and the archaic 90deg twist method is probably a disaster waiting to happen on these motors


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

Last night i did some testing on my engine, nice and easy to do on the stand, as i suspected there was some surprises. 

I received my tensioning kit from [email protected] - Big thanks to him from bringing this kit to us :beer:

Here's some pictures showing the kit -


















































Now unfortunately i don't have a Hydro OEM belt tensioner (i binned it years ago when i got my IE Manual Tensioner set-up) so i put Al's tensioner set-up on and had a play with the Tension to go app - Someone posted about putting in the correct settings for the belts we use... this isn't required if you want to just measure the tension (frequency).... i played around with the settings and it didn't change the value displayed. 

First up i removed the cam belt covers and Fluidamper ready to start the testing -










I then removed the IE Manual Set-up and compared the tensioning rollers -


















As you can see the new FSi one is slightly narrower, but the base lip of the rollers are an equal distance from block. 

Here's the three belts that i've got, Gates Kevlar, Conti and a INA one from Al's kit. 
The INA one is not quite as thick as the Conti / Gates and much more flexible -










So i then removed the IE manual set-up and billet roller assembly to compare the position of the idler roller to the new type from Al's kit.... they are exactly the same by the way !!!

Installed the new kit, couple of shots -


























So i then installed all the belts and tested the belt tension using "Tension to go" and recorded the figures, the tension was took in the middle of the run between Cam pulley and water pump. 
Please note - All these readings were taken at TDC with all timing marks aligned after turning the engine clockwise 2 turns and checking the tab still aligned to indicate correct preload of the tensioner. Some took a few adjustments but after every adjustment i then rechecked the indicator on the tensioner to maintain a level playing field.

I also checked the belt deflection in approx degrees.... please note the angles i wrote down were really tight, i mean i really had to try to get the angles listed..... if it were a manual set-up you'd say that it was too tight. 

Anyhow the results -










You can see the tension results are quite similar but the amount the belts deflected was quite a bit different. 

Now the interesting bit, i noticed as i was turning the crank round that the auto-tensioner was moving a little (increasing and reducing the amount of preload) as the engine rotated through its various cycles. I then looked at it and it's quite apparent whats happening -

As the Camshafts are turning they are pushing the valves in and out...obviously we all know that, but what this does to the timing belt is it basically moves the tension around from one side of the cam pulley to the other side.
Basically as you turn the crank and the cams starts to push the valves down it makes you pull the cam pulley round from the water pump side of the belt.... as the cams go over their lobes the cam pulley runs away with itself forward due to the valve springs wanting to open and helping push the cam lobe round.. this intern puts the tension onto the other side of the belt (the tensioner side) and the water pump side tension decreases. 

This is measurable throughout the 720 degrees of crankshaft movement. 
I took some measurement at 90 degree amounts and the measured figures showed in the tension amounts -

These were on the Gates belt with tfsi tensioner -










Next up i refitted the IE manual tensioner and tried setting the belt as per IE's recommendations to 90 degrees of twist. This resulted in the belt looking far too slack once rotated, when i rotated the engine you could see the slack moving side to side... in a worrying amount (it looked like it'd jump at high revs) - if you did this with the lower covers in place there's no chance you'd see it as the slack presented itself between the crank pulley and the first idler pulley / the other side between the crank pulley / water pump. 
I then returned it to the TDC marks for Crank & Camshaft line and tested it again with the deflection method, it was the same as i'd initially set it. 

I then set the belt a bit tighter to approx 70 degrees of easy / medium movement (again at TDC Crank & Cam) - this seemed about right to me if i was setting the belt without any 90 degree instructions. 
The frequency of the belt at this level of deflection was 62hz. 

I then performed the same test at 90 degree intervals through the engines cycle. The results -










At this level of tension there was still a noticeable level of slack shifting from side to side during the engine rotation, but it didn't look as worrying as the first attempt, certainly not like it was gonna jump a tooth at any moment. 

Personally when i first read about the IE manual set-up i was happy to use it as it seemed a nice simple solution to the problem with the OEM set-up failures that i'd seemed to read a lot about. 
But now i've looked in detail into the set-up and how the tension moves around from side to side i'm no longer happy not using a sprung / pre-loaded set-up. 

Gates belt for me with Al's tensioner system :thumbup:

I know i'm only looking at the system slowly turning on an engine stand and that once the engines rotating you have many different inertias / momentums but personally i think that something that can constantly vary to apply a similar level of preload has got to be a good thing.... and let's face it if VW deem it good enough to fit as standard to the newer FSI/TFSI engines then i'm happy to take advantage of the countless hours of R&D and testing they have done. 
And one things for sure there isn't any issues with timing belt failures on the newer engines either they even have stupidly long intervals... especially if you compare it to a car that came with the manual set-up as standard. 

Really wish i had an OEM hydro to test to see what tension it exerts on the belt. 

Anyhow i hope you enjoyed my testing, hope someone chimes in with some hydro testing shortly.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Really cool stuff...

So in short, to do the FSI style tensioner setup...

Tensioner Kit
PN# 06B198119A
Genuine VW @ ECS = $151.74
* Spring Loaded Tensioner Roller
* Idler Roller
* Bolt for Idler Roller (which we won't be using)
* Timing Belt (Use Gates Racing T306RB, or Continental 06B109119A
Note: OEM Fitment on this is 2001-2005 Audi A4 and Passat
Note: Use Idler Roller and Bolt for Idler Roller on the below mentioned Idler Roller Bracket using torque spec = ___??___

Idler Roller Bracket
PN# ___???___
Note: Attaches with two screws (not sure what the specs/ part #'s/ whatever are on these) using torque spec = ___??___

Stud/washer/nut set for tensioner roller
Supplied by Pag Parts


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Since I have my engine out...

Gates racing belt + manual tensioner. 45K miles. Installed with 90* of twist, have never needed to retension. Belt looks good and tension seems to be right where it was 45K miles ago. 

Now, 90* of twist here really is as much as I could muster (same as when I initially tensioned). I'd say more like 70-75* of twist without 100% effort.


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

Another thing i forgot to mention was the fact that with a manual tensioning setup - depending on where about you test the tension of the belt in relation to engine degree.... You can have widely different tensions. That can be seen in my results above. 

When you test the tension by trying to twist the belt... If the slack part of the belt is on the tensioner side then you are physically trying to turn the cam and crank pulley..... This will make it feel tighter than it is.

I have watched the video by IE several times on how to tension your belt and they don't stick to one position... Ie TDC then the spin it round and retest anywhere..... By doing this i think the margin of error for correct tension is massive. 

Thoughts ?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Grahams81 said:


> Another thing i forgot to mention was the fact that with a manual tensioning setup - depending on where about you test the tension of the belt in relation to engine degree.... You can have widely different tensions. That can be seen in my results above.
> 
> When you test the tension by trying to twist the belt... If the slack part of the belt is on the tensioner side then you are physically trying to turn the cam and crank pulley..... This will make it feel tighter than it is.
> 
> ...


My thoughts? Brilliant work


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

The ECS kit is wrong. That is the hydro setup with out the hydro tensioner.

Great write up Graham :thumbup:

The only thing that I'd like to add is that when you have a consistent preloading of the belt, you have consistency on what it does during the heat cycle. The belt is preloaded with this in mind as the belt's service is mostly going to occur with the engine hot. BUT, sufficient belt tension during cold conditions and sudden torque when intially starting the engine puts less strain on the overall belt and specifically the teeth.


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## ldaledub (Oct 14, 2007)

i had ie manual tensioner fail on me twice. first time was the washer issue second time the pulley split in two.. run hydro set up now, no more issues


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

ldaledub said:


> i had ie manual tensioner fail on me twice. first time was the washer issue second time the pulley split in two.. run hydro set up now, no more issues


For future reference, I'd like to point out that the actual tensioner itself is not manufactured by IE. It's a Volkswagen part.

In any case, great testing. I love the discussions in this thread. :thumbup:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Stoich your gates belt is doing the exact same thing the one on my impreza is doing. It's shedding the blue backing slowly. Look closely at your pics....


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I noticed that he actually had alot of erosion on the surface of his belt. The fibers on the surface has mostly worn away. You can see the fibers underneath starting to poke through and much of his gear to belt contact is on the top part of the tooth as he's starting to lose coverage.... Here is a more uniformed used Gates belt with consistent wear patterns. This belt is actually in great condition...


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

Just a heads up for those installing AL's set-up, the timing belt cover needs modifying to clear the locking nut. 

The cover was fouling on the nut, so i fitted the cover and gently knocked the area with a plastic hammer to leave a "witness" mark on the cover. I then took a 25mm hole saw and drilled the cover. I also had to grind some of the webbing off the back of the cover to clear the adjusting mechanism. 

Pics -










Back side showing webbing removed -










All fitted 










Also took some photo's of the instructions just to show torques etc -


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I noticed that he actually had alot of erosion on the surface of his belt. The fibers on the surface has mostly worn away. You can see the fibers underneath starting to poke through and much of his gear to belt contact is on the top part of the tooth as he's starting to lose coverage.... Here is a more uniformed used Gates belt with consistent wear patterns. This belt is actually in great condition...






Unless it is the light, the belt on STOICH's car is doing what my impreza did/is doing. The backing/blue surface flakes/powders off at an excessive rate, far too excessive compared to any factory belt. I'm runnng a Gates kevlar SOHC EJ belt on my all motor EJ25. Last time I pulled my crank snout mounted oil pump to shim, I found a PILE of that blue dust between my crank sensor and the teeth. Belt otherwise seems ok, but not very confidence inspiring....... :facepalm:


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Nope - you guys are right. Just gave it another look and sure enough, it has worn unevenly. Thanks for making me check twice...its up for sale, so I'll be throwing an OE belt and tensioner on for peace of mind.

Oddly enough, now I'm rethinking the ej20 racing belt I have, but not installed.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

on the kit my friend just fitted to his S3, ina belt (not issam) supplied with it neither of us liked the "feel" or thinner section of it vs an OE Gates/Conti belt, so did'nt use the belt.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm going to pull the timing cover off my ej25 and check it this week. I will post pictures here its a dayco oem timing kit with all new rollers and just a gates racing Kevlar belt.

I think these belts may not be all they are cracked up to be.

Anyone remember the RAI Kevlar belt failures?


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Also as usual, Wayne's world not worthy to Arnold's analysis skills


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Oh god, I need to keep up on this more. So much information.


carsluTT, i've been meaning to get readings on my Android. i'll be getting 4 tomorrow. 3 of which are OEM and 1, mine, has the IE manual tensioner with FSI crank gear.

Not sure how valuable it is now, or if at all, but I figured I could do something to contribute.


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

Snapped a quick pic of my belt , Oem Hydro set up with Gates belt. Set up has maybe 3000 miles on it.



Once I am done moving I'll dig more into it to get more pics of the belt and ribs.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

gdoggmoney said:


> Unless it is the light, the belt on STOICH's car is doing what my impreza did/is doing. The backing/blue surface flakes/powders off at an excessive rate, far too excessive compared to any factory belt. I'm runnng a Gates kevlar SOHC EJ belt on my all motor EJ25. Last time I pulled my crank snout mounted oil pump to shim, I found a PILE of that blue dust between my crank sensor and the teeth. Belt otherwise seems ok, but not very confidence inspiring....... :facepalm:


Same thing I found when by belt gave way. A pile of blue dust around the crank. You might wanna be proactive....


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

I like the pagparts setup as it looks more oem. Whats the part number soe the non hydro tensioner? Can someone map out the correct part numbers so this can be bought in pieces.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Nevaeh_Speed said:


> I like the pagparts setup as it looks more oem. Whats the part number soe the non hydro tensioner? Can someone map out the correct part numbers so this can be bought in pieces.


I tried... See above

Arnold told me I was wrong


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Yeah I read that. Its looks to be factory stuff so im sure the part numbers will turn up.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

So far as I can tell, you cannot purchase these components separately. I've searched...


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

Shame. As I'd like a roller to see if I can machine enough off the back to make it work on aeb

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Nevaeh_Speed said:


> Yeah I read that. Its looks to be factory stuff so im sure the part numbers will turn up.


Considering the ALT/BFB were European motors offered in the B7 chassis (1.8T based) and were never offered in North America then getting the components individually aside from the dealer will be difficult.
If you really want a slick looking roller housing then throw it on the mill. Takes all of 5 mins to machine off the tensioner housing.
HTH


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Ive gotten parts from over the pond before, I just like the look. Im staying hydro until there have been years of a proven working solution to go manual.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Been 16v manual with a stud for years. I swap belts yearly with coolant and knock on wood have never had problems.

I owned multiple 8v and 16v cars so I may be biased in knowing how to deal with tension.

I've moved the same stud and tensioner to 4 motors now over about 5 years with a few belt moves. Never an issue. I run my belts tight. Motor seems fine no excess cam journal wear on the belt side.


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## westcoastjay (Jul 31, 2002)

I have been reading this thread and i dont like when people hoard information in order to make $$

Here are the part#'s for the non-hydraulic parts

06A109181 and 06A109243A


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

westcoastjay said:


> I have been reading this thread and i dont like when people hoard information in order to make $$
> 
> Here are the part#'s for the non-hydraulic parts
> 
> 06A109181 and 06A109243A


Before you insinuate that I was hoarding information, I'll have you know that I ran into this kit by mistake. Yes, the KIT. I have to purchase the entire kit just like everybody else. I didnt splash a for sale ad or thread on these things on this site or anywhere. I just informed ppl that they were available. I have much more responsibilities then to distribute timing belt kits to the community and informed ppl that the kit is an OE source. First time I have seen those numbers... Stop looking into things too much, there is no conspiracy theory here...


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## gitman (May 13, 2004)

westcoastjay said:


> i dont like when [email protected] hoard(s) information in order to make $$


maybe i shouldn't be saying this, but seems like you've been around long enough to know better



westcoastjay said:


> 06A109181 and 06A109243A


these are listed at jim ellis ($87 and $99, respectively) but there is no application information at all, weird.


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## westcoastjay (Jul 31, 2002)

gitman said:


> maybe i shouldn't be saying this, but seems like you've been around long enough to know better
> 
> 
> 
> these are listed at jim ellis ($87 and $99, respectively) but there is no application information at all, weird.



Actually you edited my post as a quote and that is not what I said, there was multiple people in this thread asking for OE part numbers and it seemed to me that AL was not offering up the part#'s so that they could sell a few kits which doesn't make sense to me. If I am wrong then sorry my bad and either way you got the OEM numbers now. Thats why I posted them. The application is 2001-2005 EA1113 Longitudinal 1.8T found in Audi A4 and VW Passat (AWM motors)

None of these companies like INA or Contitech (who also has a kit with these parts) would release a product unless it was already an OEM specification. 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ContiTech-Za...498989338?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item33925e5b1a

The kits from INA come from Worldpac and the Contitech kits so far are only across the pond.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

It would be misleading to give a part number for a part that comes in 2 versions. The hydro setup uses the same kit part number without the hydro tensioner. I throw a part number out there and you have a whole slew of ppl ordering something else then what will that do? Anyhow, I also am a vendor on here. I take my job pretty seriously and try to convey a clear, honest message to ppl whenever I can. Its not just about spamming these forums with advertisements with me so you're barking up the wrong tree...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Arnold is pretty straight up. If you think he's up to something sneaky, just ask him and he'll probably tell you exactly what's going on.

Life's too short for stupid games.


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Good looking out *Westcoastjay* for providing numbers, and *[email protected]* I understand what your saying. If you provided numbers for parts that might work, might not, might be different you would be to blame. No blame from me, people need to accept the risk of all this hybrid/crossing of parts. And that's why I'm a happy OEM Hydro tensioner customer, its works and easy to get. But hopefully this OEM style setup will work out well and I might change my mind about this whole manual tensioner jazz.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Yes, lynch mob status . Even if you punch in one of the numbers he provided, you will most likely get the hydro pulley. I dont think there's tons of these individual components floating around and parts guys usually do not care or are in the know...


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

I don't think there are too many effs given about selling timing belt kits. Probably more concerned with selling nice quality manifolds and good turbo hardware. You know, why people buy the stuff that he has created and made. 

This isn't "CTS turbo" selling "RP" and or any other garbage, or any of the trash vendors selling taiwanese tools and turbos made of soda cans and sewer caps.


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## stevemannn (Apr 17, 2008)

what about those formula 1.8t cars? are they using something besides the oem hydro tensioner?
after almost losing my head with the manual tensioner, ill never go back to it.
ive also had a hydro tensioner fail,luckilly nothing made contact.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

^ Very good question. I'm betting its probably a manual tensioner or maybe an FSI type, but T/Belts on race engines are replaced on a very regular schedule. I'm also betting that they have the proper tensioning tool ( Ultrasonic or otherwise ) for installing these things.

Would be interesting to find out. Someone over in Europe or the UK probably has more access to these type of Road Racing cars than us. BTCCC also runs VW's and Audi's . That would be a good place to ask. So would WRC and Global Rallycross series :thumbup: ( Awesome freakin' racing ) VW has a big presence there. However. all of these cars are running the 2.0 based TSFI motors and the Palmer series shut down in 2010 

Hey Badger Bill... can you have a look at the BTCC or Palmer cars the next time you are at a race with VW/Audi


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Sweet Hey Zeus. I just popped over to Aaron site and he's building a whole new car. Check it out:

http://speeding-g60.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Speeding-g60-Race-Team/217178141676752

Hmmm... maybe I oughta check out this FaceBook thing. It might just catch on....

And for your daily amusement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxMyxEfYrUI


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## Ken's Mom (Jan 23, 2007)

Chickenman35 said:


> Sweet Hey Zeus. I just popped over to Aaron site and he's building a whole new car. Check it out:
> 
> http://speeding-g60.com/
> 
> ...


hahaha i love that video!

here is the link to his latest progress on the new car. its the second tab on his website. 

http://speeding-g60.com/?page_id=282


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Any advancements here?


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Any advancements here?


in for updates


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Started my AEB 1.8T yesterday morning and heard some belt squeaking/squeal that was rotational on/off with the speed of the crank.


Car is parked until I tear it apart. Thinking the roller, and or manual tensioner have had a long enough run after years and 2/3 motors with lots of high rpm use. Have not rule out the timing belt either. 


Could the updated hydro tensioner be used on an 058 block? I believe I have my manual tensioner barely spaced out as it's a 2.0 16v tensioner on an 058 external waterpump block.


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## BYZAN (Mar 27, 2013)

Apparently not. I found the "new type" of tensioner to stand out too far. It's possible that some material could come off the back to bring it into line. It doesn't help aeb belts are 25mm over 23mm on 06a engines. It means we have less "adjustment" in the pulley width to play with

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Looks like it may be gates hardware and a gates hydraulic AEB setup for me. This squeaking is odd it sometimes does it cold sometimes after it warms up.

Definitely timing belt and idler/tensioner related


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Tension2go gives me 100hz-102hz per flick repeatedly. Apparently I have the feel down for a manual 16v tensioner. 

Now to fix this before something goes


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> Tension2go gives me 100hz-102hz per flick repeatedly. Apparently I have the feel down for a manual 16v tensioner.
> 
> Now to fix this before something goes


update on this? also do u have any videos of the sound it makes? im curious...


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Want me to post a video of me flicking the belt and twisting it?

I can do that for yall


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> Want me to post a video of me flicking the belt and twisting it?
> 
> I can do that for yall


i wana see a video of the sound the belt was making when your car was running and also the video of u flicking the belt would be cool too.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

gdoggmoney said:


> Want me to post a video of me flicking the belt and twisting it?
> 
> I can do that for yall


YES!



NaSMK4 said:


> i wana see a video of the sound the belt was making when your car was running and also the video of u flicking the belt would be cool too.


This as well.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm running a rubber belt and manual tensioner. I think my squeaking is the idler roller.

It is squeaky on cold start.

105hz with temperature drop.










https://vimeo.com/110897105


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Decided not to squeal or squeak much today.

It's belt time soon, maybe I'll run a stock gates or contitech kit.

Belt is a year old and everything else is about four years old now. The 16v tensioner and AEB idler roller both four.

https://vimeo.com/110897999


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> Decided not to squeal or squeak much today.
> 
> It's belt time soon, maybe I'll run a stock gates or contitech kit.
> 
> ...


video doesnt work for me.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Any consensus on the failure? I bought a grip of these blue belts when I had my GTI and my daily is still a 1.8t. Just debating if I should even bother with the Gates at this point. This car is the exact epitome of boring so there's no extra wear and tear I'm trying to garner, just want durability. It'll run a hydro tensioner.


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## JJG323 (Aug 20, 2005)

screwball said:


> Any consensus on the failure? I bought a grip of these blue belts when I had my GTI and my daily is still a 1.8t. Just debating if I should even bother with the Gates at this point. This car is the exact epitome of boring so there's no extra wear and tear I'm trying to garner, just want durability. It'll run a hydro tensioner.


Just wanted to put my two cents in. About two year ago I got a Intergrated tensioner and gates belt, and a new waterpump. It was put into my 2003 GTI by a VW tech.
It lasted about 25,000 miles!!!! I was at a red light and my car died. I towed it to the shop. They told me that my timing belt went. I was shocked.
I removed the whole head to find out what the hell happened. All my valves where bent - they where mangled. After checking VWs crazy prices, I got Supertech valves from ebay and rebuilt my head at a machine shop. My entire head has rebuilt. At the shop - you can bet when we reinstalled the head, We examined what the hell happened.


I would have saved the belt for the purpose of this thread...the teeth - yes folks the teeth started to seperate from the Blue Gates belt at 25000 miles!!! :what:
Not sure if it was something that came loose with the Intergrated tensioner, but I had to cut that timing belt off the car....

I run Revo Stage 2 software, a forged divertor valve, and due to Mass stupid emissions law a stock turbo, and downpipe until my car is 15 years old.
I am waiting to Garrett 2871R and big port head, until my car has to just pass saftey inspection. I wount run that Intergrated tensioner ever again. Not sure about the FSI one. When I go big turbo I am staying with the factory tensioner...


We put it back with the factory tensioner and I threw the Intergrated one in the trash. My friend says it was a combination of the Gates belt with the Intergrated tensioner!!! 

After being forced to beg to get rides to work with friends for a month, without the car, I learned a valuable lesson, that the 16 valve/ Intergrated Tensioner is not the thing to use with these engines. I am still running the gates belt I have about 10,000 miles on it.

I will check it next time I bring my car in for service.


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## White Jetta (Mar 17, 2002)

There is nothing wrong with the IE tensioner, I've run this type of setup since 2007. I just did the TB and WP change on my car a few weeks ago with 100k on the first manual setup with no problems, and installed the same new parts again.

It's that Gates belt I don't trust. I've always used a stock Conti.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

White Jetta said:


> There is nothing wrong with the IE tensioner, I've run this type of setup since 2007. I just did the TB and WP change on my car a few weeks ago with 100k on the first manual setup with no problems, and installed the same new parts again.
> 
> It's that Gates belt I don't trust. I've always used a stock Conti.


While I recognize the advantages of a spring loaded or gas charged tensioner, I also have been using an IE tensioner with a conti belt since 2010. Same belt the whole time.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I ran through 2 trackdays with a broken oem hydro tensioner and the Gates belt. No damaged done. Belt took a beating but held up like a champ. Now, if I had a manual tensioner which broke it's be a total rebuild - much like I do now :laugh:

Point is, them oem tensioner can still work even after it breaks and give you some time to get home and fix it while from what I've seen a manual tensioner is on/off.


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## JJG323 (Aug 20, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> I ran through 2 trackdays with a broken oem hydro tensioner and the Gates belt. No damaged done. Belt took a beating but held up like a champ. Now, if I had a manual tensioner which broke it's be a total rebuild - much like I do now :laugh:
> 
> Point is, them oem tensioner can still work even after it breaks and give you some time to get home and fix it while from what I've seen a manual tensioner is on/off.


I did not understand the IE tensioner was a through back to the 16 valve days. And bam goodbye head! Gulfstream you are right, I am running the OEM tensioner with the Gates belt. How can you tell that tensioner is broke...does it make a noise?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

It only made a slight whine at idle. That's it. Now I know what to look for but it wasn't until I decided to find the cause I discovered what was wrong. Pulled the cover and didn't start it up again until after new tensioner and belt was in place.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Thought I'd posted this here but I guess not... I've been running the new style manual tensioner that Pag sells and so far so good. Love the fact that the belt tension is set to spec and not to an approximate amount of twist.

I did have the IE manual tensioner on before this and the idler bearing came off on the highway - didn't know what it was until I noticed it was missing the following weekend when I changed the oil. No skipped TB teeth or anything thankfully...


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Any advancement on this? Either the tensioner or secondary idler pulley above the water pump.

I may be doing a timing belt job on a friend's car soon and what to do so with the best parts available.

I saw earlier that there was an incomplete parts list, has that been completed since?
Is this kit now a tried and true solution?

Thanks in advance.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> Any advancement on this? Either the tensioner or secondary idler pulley above the water pump.
> 
> I may be doing a timing belt job on a friend's car soon and what to do so with the best parts available.
> 
> ...


There is a new style FSI type tensioner put together by Pag Parts. I'd go with that. Looks like a pretty sweet mix between the old 16v style tensioner and the new style adaptive tensioner.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

groggory said:


> There is a new style FSI type tensioner put together by Pag Parts. I'd go with that. Looks like a pretty sweet mix between the old 16v style tensioner and the new style adaptive tensioner.


Will do. Thanks.

I guess the secondary idler roller is dead in the water.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Bumping this. 

In March of 2014 I refreshed my engine after an OEM timing belt failure. I went with an 'Ultimate Kit' that included a Gates belt and new hydro tensioner. There was 99,000 miles at this point. 

Fast forward to a few days ago and I was underneath the car tracking down what sounded like something loose in the bottom end. With the car running it sounded like there was bottom end rattle. Using a mechanic's stethoscope I determined it wasn't. Moving topside it wasn't the head either. Checking all things rotating I saw the belt was flopping around and there was noise coming from the tensioner roller when the stethoscope was put on it. 

Stopped the engine and the belt is bad loose and the tensioner is almost all the way extended. It's also done. I can pull the belt and the tensioner stays compressed. But when I pry the tensioner all the way out the belt is still very loose. 

I check the belt every oil change and this has been a recent development like a combination of tensioner failure and what looks like a stretched belt. If this is even possible with these belts. Needless to say the car is in the corner of my yard until the proper parts arrive and I'll be rocking the old faithful Yoder until then. Nearly double the displacement, half the MPG, and 1/3 the power. 


Edited for iPhone grammar.


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## White Jetta (Mar 17, 2002)

That sucks. I'm at 260,000 miles now and have only done two timing belt/water pump changes each at 100k miles, and have used a regular Continental belt and a 16v manual tensioner. Never had one problem or adjustment ever.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Why still trust a hydro tensioner? Those things can be bad out of the box! Saw plenty at the dealer fail after start up, sorry to hear man :/


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Need to check this before the season as well. Plan quite a few trackdays this summer :beer:


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## cmdshft (Oct 17, 2011)

So, if I were to do my belt this summer, this kit is the one everyone seems to be recommending?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

cmdshft said:


> So, if I were to do my belt this summer, this kit is the one everyone seems to be recommending?


No. Stay away from the manual tensioners.


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## cmdshft (Oct 17, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> No. Stay away from the manual tensioners.


I was under the impression that manual tensioner with a gates belt was the issue, but not with a conti or oem belt.

I do realize that for racecars that get timing belts done all the time, the manual ones are okay so I would imagine that would be the reason to not use one on a daily car.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

cmdshft said:


> I was under the impression that manual tensioner with a gates belt was the issue, but not with a conti or oem belt.
> 
> I do realize that for racecars that get timing belts done all the time, the manual ones are okay so I would imagine that would be the reason to not use one on a daily car.


Race cars reset and check their belts before each session. Unless you are able to do this before every day you turn the key I'd personally avoid them. When a manual tensioner fail it's usually a complete failure. With an oem hydraulic tensioner you still have time to catch it as it's held in place even after failure. I ran two trackdays with a broken oem tensioner and nothing happened. Had I used a manual tensioner you can be sure it would have been a complete rebuild. My 2c.


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> No. Stay away from the manual tensioners.


Aren't you running an FSI tensioner setup??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

No. Still oem 1.8T hydraulic tensioner. Arnold mentioned next time I change I should go with 2.0tfsi oem tensioner. I'll never touch the manual ones.


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

As soon as my R32 shell is ready for my 1.8t transfer I'm gonna get rid if my manual setup and get that one Arnold recommends 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> No. Still oem 1.8T hydraulic tensioner. Arnold mentioned next time I change I should go with 2.0tfsi oem tensioner. I'll never touch the manual ones.


Why is the 2.0 tensioner so much better?


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Brake Weight said:


> Why is the 2.0 tensioner so much better?



To set perfect tension you simply align the marks and tighten.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

All_Euro said:


> To set perfect tension you simply align the marks and tighten.


I'll need to look into it some more before ordering new. So it's a spring tensioner?


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I went with the Conti belt, tensioner pulley, and 1.8t hydro tensioner again, but OEM this time. Today I was going to put it on and my kid pulled the pin on the tensioner. Oh joy. 

I managed to get the new tensioner and pulley installed using the Gates belt which has less than 10,000 miles. I ended up 1 tooth retarded at the head, but it runs fine. When I did it last time I had it perfect.


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## dovski (Mar 15, 2013)

Old thread I know....About to replace my gates rb belt and timing pulleys etc.. I have a new conti belt and hydro tension set coming and also a gates blue belt :/
All the blue has gone from the back of my belt with regular trips up to 8k rpm and iecv1 cams. The motors done approx 10k miles on the 306rb belt fitted with manual tensioner. never adjusted in those miles and now almost 90 twist.
Any recent views on the choice I have now re belts and tensioners?..my choice I know.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Manual tensionerd require maintenance, but they are superior to hydraulic tensioners. I have not had any issues with any customer, or my own blue kevlar belt. That is due to the fact that I keep an eye on those on those items as maintenance items, especially belt tension and tensioner.

260k, 9k rpm, 13 years. 2 belts, one tensioner setup. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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