# e85



## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Why cant i run it ? 

its 2.19$ a gal. and 102 octane 

... converse opcorn:


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

id say at best, run 3/4 tank of 91oct and the other 1/4 tank with E85. end result is a few decimals higher then 93oct.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

different fuel pump and injectors i believe could do the trick


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

Then what is different about flex fuel vehicles? I was actually wondering this myself. My buddy got a new chevy and he was asking if he should run E85 since it's less $$.

What is mechanically different in the vehicle for E85, or does it just fiddle with A/F and timing?


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Ive done minimal research.. some people say you need more e85 when compared to 93 so you will need a different fuel pump injectors ect, other said its the same **** all you need is a different ecu mapping... i don't know who to trust.. but if it just involved software, and a reputable company would produce such software that would be great :thumbup:


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

I have also been interested in running E85. This is my understanding:

Ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline (76,100 BTUs vs 114,100BTUs). Being that E85 is ~15% gasoline and 85% Ethanol, E85 (81,800BTUs) has approximately 25-30% less energy per gallon than gasoline. 

In a Non-Flex-fuel vehicle, Fuel Maps are set to run for an optimum Air-fuel ratio of X parts Air to Y Parts Fuel (Such as 13:1). Due to the lower energy content of E85, it takes more fuel  to make combustion. (Approximately 20-25%% more.)

So, theoretically, you could run a fuel map that would be 25-30% richer and be ok, assuming your injectors and fuel pump can handle 25% more flow safely. I plan to switch to E85 if 2010 software is ever released that can make up for that flow difference and account for larger injectors.


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## VWShocker (Mar 19, 2010)

...


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

VWShocker said:


> There is already mapping for E85. All you need is larger injectors.
> 
> -E


For 2010's?


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Sooo will it give me more power or less power? 
and just injectors or pump to?


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Soooo...
Anyone have any suggestions on injectors? 

Unitronic get on this software so you can bump me up for cheap please


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Shocker please fill us in on what you've done to allow you to run e85 as well as who you went to to get the fuel to run properly can you give any of us some input on how the car is running as well as what mileage you are getting...we would all be thankful for your input...no more of this shy reply business  help us out!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Schrottplatzer (Jun 13, 2009)

You've got it right--essentially you need roughly 1/3 more fuel to get near the same power as gasoline. If your car can adjust it means you burn through fuel 1/3 faster and feel little differences. If your car can't adjust it just sucks all around. E85 is not a desireable fuel--it's less efficient, and requires more (as in you'll be refueling a lot more often)


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

Schrottplatzer said:


> E85 is not a desireable fuel...)


It is not desirable to SOME. 

It IS desirable to those of us who would prefer to give as little money as possible to the middle east.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

most of our gas comes from Canada.

I herd E85 eats seals and fuel lines if motor wasn't made for it. Don' t know if thats true.


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

BluMagic said:


> I herd E85 eats seals and fuel lines if motor wasn't made for it. Don' t know if thats true.


This is true; if your car was built before 1985. Cars built after (around) 1985 have Teflon coatings on the fuel lines to prevent corrosion. (This was response to the adding of 5% and eventually 10% ethanol to gasoline that we almost ALL have today). To my understanding, if the 'rubber' in your car is set to handle 10% ethanol (which all modern cars are), the rubber pieces can handle 85% ethanol. 

Don't get me wrong, ethanol is corrosive to rubber. It's just that modern car fuel lines and seals are already designed to withstand it.


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## dr0pthehamm3r (Nov 30, 2007)

richard_rsp said:


> It is not desirable to SOME.
> 
> It IS desirable to those of us who would prefer to give as little money as possible to the middle east.


your car accepts 87oct... how much less can you possibly spend on gas without walking?!


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

the4ringer said:


> your car accepts 87oct... how much less can you possibly spend on gas without walking?!


It's not about how much I am paying for gas, its about how much of my money goes to the wealthy oil Arabs of the Middle-East. 

Today's Gasoline: 90% Gas, 10% Ethanol - 90% of $2.49 per gallon (87 oct). That means about $2.24 of a gallon is towards actual petroleum. 

E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline. At $2.19 a gallon, that means about $.33 is going towards petroleum.

Now since it takes approximately 20% more ethanol to go the same distance, we do have to do a bit of calculation. 

1000 miles @ 30mpg (gasoline) at $2.49 = 33.3 Gallons or $82.92, $74.63 of which is going to petroleum. 

1000 miles @ 24 mpg (e85) at $2.19 =  41.6 Gallons or $91.10, $13.67 of which is going to petroleum. 

That means, that if I would have been able to run E85 over the last 6 months (10k miles), I would have given approximately $130.67 to the middle-east instead of the $746.30 that I did. 

But these numbers are exaggerated. At the moment, only about 53% of our oil comes from foreign sources. So it is likely that just more than half of that money went overseas. Would have been nice to have kept it in the US economy, tho!


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

I would not use E85 in my any of my VWs. As they are designed to run on up to 10% ethanol.
If you want to run E85 just buy a FF vehicle. If you run E85 in a car not designed for it and you run into fuel system problems you are on your own VW WILL not warranty it. Could cost you $$$ for your little experiment.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

There is way too much misinformation in this thread. Here are the basics that you need to know before deciding to put E85 in your car:

1. *It is extremely caustic*
Unlike what was previously stated in this thread not all modern cars can handle 85% ethanol fuel just because they can handle 15% ethanol, there is a BIG difference between the two. Go buy some Malibu rum and a bottle of Everclear then take a shot of the Malibu, You can taste the alcohol a little but it goes down pretty smooth right? No burn. Now take a shot of the Everclear, did you manage to choke it down? Hows that burning in your mouth and throat feel? That's what E85 feels like in your fuel lines unless you have lines that are specifically designed to handle it. It will eat your fuel lines, injectors and seals and you will have issues, most likely not on the first tank, or maybe even on the 3rd tank but after a while of using it you'll probably notice your engine sputtering a bit at idle. You may start having to crank the engine for a while on a cold start to build up enough pressure in the lines. and then after a while there will be such a large leak that your car wouldn't run at all. That is of course a worst case scenario but E85 isn't intended to be used on every engine so you can't expect every engine to be able to process it.

2. *It is less energy dense*
This sounds pretty contradictory at first but I'll try to make it clearer. Given the same compression ratio between two engines if one is using 89 or 91 octane and one is using E85 the one running E85 will make about the same power but it will use more fuel. More E85 needs to be added to create the same amount of energy as unleaded. Now if you add more fuel there also needs to be more air to maintain the correct air / fuel ratio, if the engine is designed or just programmed to run E85 then it is able to slightly adjust the timing to be able to take in enough air to balance out the increas in fuel being used. That's where the engineering and programming come in but it's only one part of the equation needed to make more power which leads us to:

3.*It can create more power*
How do you get more power out of fuel that contains less energy? It's all about octane baby! Octane is something else that's tragically misunderstood by the general public, higher octane doesn't necessarily mean higher power or more fuel efficiency, it's only part of the equation. All octane means is the fuels ability to resist "pre-ignition" or knocking. Higher compression ratios need higher octane otherwise the air fuel mixture will ignite before it's supposed to which is seriously bad for business. If a car is designed to run on E85 then it can be designed with much higher than average compression ratios and pump out some serious power. Take the Koenigsegg CCX-R for example, it was designed as a green supercar and it was built for E85. I forget the exact numbers but when using E85 it makes right around 1000 hp and on 93 octane it only makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 800.

If I can think of more to add I'll update this later but we're getting busy at work.


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

jettafan[atic] said:


> There is way too much misinformation in this thread. Here are the basics that you need to know before deciding to put E85 in your car:
> 
> 1. *It is extremely caustic*
> Unlike what was previously stated in this thread not all modern cars can handle 85% ethanol fuel just because they can handle 15% ethanol, there is a BIG difference between the two. ... It will eat your fuel lines, injectors and seals and you will have issues, most likely not on the first tank, or maybe even on the 3rd tank but after a while of using it you'll probably notice your engine sputtering a bit at idle...


Sorry, but I am going to have to defend myself here. THIS is a common misinformation that has sprouted from the muscle-car generation of the 60s and 70s that had NON-Teflon coated fuel lines. The coatings werent added until the mid-80s. This does not apply to today's cars. 

Please don't make assumptions that it is misinformation unless you have actually attempted it. 

While there is a difference between Malibu and Everclear TO YOUR MOUTH AND THROAT, the difference is not the same to Teflon. Teflon coating on rubber will protect against 85% Ethanol just as easily as 10%. Just because your body is sensitive to the change, doesnt mean your fuel lines are. 

But as for the rest of your post, its pretty much right on. IN NO WAY, am I recommending running E85 in a stock, Non-FFV. Do not attempt to modify unless you know exactly what you are doing. 

Do I think more companies could (and should) make more FFV? Absolutely. But the ONLY reason they were ever brought to the US was to help with CAFE standards. (Which is why they are pretty much only on Big trucks and SUVs.) But that is finally beginning to change. 

Whether or not you are a fan of Ethanol is up to you (I actually prefer butanol). Ethanol is a good fuel. Its relatively clean, easily broken down, renewable, and can be made on site. I do not have investments in any form of Ethanol companies, I am just an environmental professional who likes cars.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

Okay, it sounds like you know more about the effects of running ethanol in nonflex fuel cars than I do so I'll take your word on it. I was just going off of what I learned about flex fuel vehicles in school for automotive technology, which we didn't spend much time on. I was still under the impression that E85 = death in cars not designed for it. So is it just the lines that are protected but the pump, injectors and all related seals are still not up to the task?


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## richard_rsp (Mar 17, 2010)

jettafan[atic] said:


> So is it just the lines that are protected but the pump, injectors and all related seals are still not up to the task?


:thumbup: 

Any rubber that has contact with fuel (seals, fuel lines, etc.) are all Teflon coated these days, ever since the 5%, and eventually 10% Ethanol was put into pump gas. There were LOTS of problems when it first happened and still is in the mindset of some older car enthusiests. 

Injectors, and pump still (possibly) need to be upgraded due to the increase in flow, but not due to the corrosive behavior of ethanol.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

richard_rsp said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Any rubber that has contact with fuel (seals, fuel lines, etc.) are all Teflon coated these days, ever since the 5%, and eventually 10% Ethanol was put into pump gas. There were LOTS of problems when it first happened and still is in the mindset of some older car enthusiests.
> 
> Injectors, and pump still (possibly) need to be upgraded due to the increase in flow, but not due to the corrosive behavior of ethanol.


Cool, thanks for the education. :thumbup::beer:


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

opcorn:

i like ware this is going.. 

So lets talk some numbers? 

N/a rabbit properly tuned and with the right hardware .. what can we get out of e85?

Also its 3 bucks a gal for 93 in Ny and 2.20 for e85 so even if you need 30% more i can deal with it


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

:thumbup: Sounds good 

And fuel usage? if i need to run 30% more fuel im fine with it.. being that e85 is just about 30% cheaper than 93...

All said and done after injectors fuel pump and software how much $$ would i be spending roughly


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## rustlerdude (Aug 13, 2007)

^^You are giving great information, thank you!

I have a question..... why is your jetta so slow?


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Lol moose be nice 

Ok so 375 for injectors 

Attention Unitronic.. You need to create software for e85! feel free to chime in anytime


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## VWShocker (Mar 19, 2010)

rustlerdude said:


> ^^You are giving great information, thank you!
> 
> I have a question..... why is your jetta so slow?


Altitude


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## rustlerdude (Aug 13, 2007)

so assuming you run E85 with 20% MORE power as claimed and running the quarter mile in 17.2, then one can assume on normal fuel it would take more like 18 seconds at your altitude?


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## VWShocker (Mar 19, 2010)

rustlerdude said:


> so assuming you run E85 with 20% MORE power as claimed and running the quarter mile in 17.2, then one can assume on normal fuel it would take more like 18 seconds at your altitude?


Wrong! 

Haven't ran the car at the track with E85 yet. If you'd read this thread, I am STILL doing tuning. 

I am racing at 8K feet elevation which is almost 2 seconds SLOWER than sea level. 

Why don't you do me a favor and read up on density altitude and altitude effects on N/A cars, then we can talk about "slow". 

-E


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## rustlerdude (Aug 13, 2007)

Nah, thx anyway.


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Everyone chill out if u wanna argue use pm.. and yea uni will probably take a while.. im just broke and if they did it i could get an upgrade for cheap being that i have their stage 1+ :beer:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

unitronic finished 93 a WHILE ago. even stage 2 is done.

however, for teh dealers to be able to flash anyone, they need an updated software...
and thats what the have been doing.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

VWShocker said:


> Wrong!
> 
> Haven't ran the car at the track with E85 yet. If you'd read this thread, I am STILL doing tuning.
> 
> ...



you said 5300' here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4893243-Ran-the-shocker-tonight


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## VWShocker (Mar 19, 2010)

KulturKampf said:


> you said 5300' here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4893243-Ran-the-shocker-tonight


5300' Altitude and then *DENSITY ALTITUDE* is 8000'.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

chill out guy...but by your calculations my friend should be around 1 second faster than you...the only difference is he is running unitronic. its an 08 auto jetta carbonio cai 16in steelies awe catback and ecs light weight pulley with no spare tire and 1/4 tank of 91 oct and hes running 15s in the mountains of pa with a little over 6100' (with density calculations) and are humidity is atleast 20% higher than your during the summer....you need to chill or go to the MKiv forums


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Please argue via PM.. no one cares whose dick is bigger. 

On With The Ethanol  


ETA on when this tune will be done and open to the public?


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

bringing this thread back from the dead...for those that haven't heard United Motorsports offers a flex fuel tune for the 2.5L NA. i'm thinking about going to get the tune this afternoon actually...if i do i will post up a review soon after i have a chance to test it out. it's a tune that automatically allows ecu adaptation between E85 and 91 octane. just fill up at a gas station and your ecu will adjust its settings accordingly. pretty slick!


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## darkk (Jun 22, 2006)

LampyB said:


> bringing this thread back from the dead...for those that haven't heard United Motorsports offers a flex fuel tune for the 2.5L NA. i'm thinking about going to get the tune this afternoon actually...if i do i will post up a review soon after i have a chance to test it out. it's a tune that automatically allows ecu adaptation between E85 and 91 octane. just fill up at a gas station and your ecu will adjust its settings accordingly. pretty slick!


 Hmmmmmmmmm.........stage 2 turbo with E85=higher boost before go boom!!!:facepalm: To bad no E85 gas available in Ct, otherwise I'd try it for sure.


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

not if you're logging correctly and don't get overly aggressive before the tune is nailed down!


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