# Formulating Ideas; CIS-E powered VR6



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Okay, I have heard great things about the swap, and while I am interested, I don't want to change my car over. But I had a spark of genius and thought about having a CIS-E powered VR6. This plan may go into motion, but I am more interested in having a discussion and throwing ideas around. So, motor placement is easy, a Passat subframe into a MK2 is bolt in, so that's taken care of. Fuel, I don't find this the difficult problem either, with using a fuel distributor from a comparable sized Mercedes and a custom intake manifold and intake pipes. The problem I can't seem to wrap my head around is spark. I know that there are VR6's with distributors, but would the ECU see RPM's from the distributor, and know to fire 6 times, or would it continue to think it's firing for a 4 cylinder distributor. What do you guys think? Am I insane?


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Anyone else think it could be done?


----------



## iamdagerman (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (ShaggysGTI)*

Dude I'm not gonna lie I thought about doing it!!!!







I was gonna use the fuel dizzy from a 80s 6 cylinder BMW


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

I found a local motor for 200, so thinkin about takin this into effect


----------



## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (iamdagerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iamdagerman* »_Dude I'm not gonna lie I thought about doing it!!!!







I was gonna use the fuel dizzy from a 80s 6 cylinder BMW

x2 - I was going to use the CIS setup from an early Porsche 911S (early-to-mid 70's)... I think it's a worthwhile project just for the "i did it" factor







Good luck and keep us updated on your progress!


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Thanks for the look and the encouragement. I'm just curious about getting proper spark to the engine is all. Does anyone know what connections are on the VR6 dizzy? Is it a hall sender like the 16V?


----------



## eightwaysanta (Oct 17, 2004)

*Re: (ShaggysGTI)*

Hmm I think you would you have to rewire the engine to get spark and fuel to work together.


----------



## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (eightwaysanta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eightwaysanta* »_Hmm I think you would you have to rewire the engine to get spark and fuel to work together. 

How so? Just run an OBD1 VR6 (distributor) on an MSD box for spark. CIS provides constant fuel so that shouldn't be an issue. I think dialing in the amount of fuel is more an issue then the spark is.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*FV-QR*

interesting.


----------



## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (iamdagerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iamdagerman* »_Dude I'm not gonna lie I thought about doing it!!!!







I was gonna use the fuel dizzy from a 80s 6 cylinder BMW

Do you mean MB? CIS BMW models are limited to the 320i, which has an I4, and only 1983 and earlier. BMW wasn't much for CIS.
I would fully support a CIS(-E) VR. 
CIS-E is strictly a fuel system, not fuel and spark ("engine management.") That would be CIS-E Motronic, Motronic being Bosch's name for an integrated management system. 
I would retain whatever ignition control the distributor VR models had and let the CIS do its thing. It will run well.


_Modified by Longitudinal at 11:19 PM 9-23-2009_


----------



## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (iamdagerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iamdagerman* »_Dude I'm not gonna lie I thought about doing it!!!!







I was gonna use the fuel dizzy from a 80s 6 cylinder BMW

Do you mean MB? CIS BMW models are limited to the 320i, which has an I4, and only 1983 and earlier. BMW wasn't much for CIS.
I would fully support a CIS(-E) VR.


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

But isn't the VR ran under an Engine Management system? Not seperate components for fuel and spark?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

spark and fuel... the engine doesn't care what and where and how it gets it


----------



## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_spark and fuel... the engine doesn't care what and where and how it gets it

+1







It only cares that it has enough...


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

I understand that, but doesn't the coil fire when the distributor rotor is in the correct position? So that means at 4 points on 4 cylinder engine, and 6 times on the VR? So my question, you couldn't continue to use the original spark setup, at least not in stock trim. Correct?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

AFAIK a VR6 ECU won't run in spark only... 
the distributor on the early Corrado VR6 is single window, so the ECU from say a 16v Jetta won't work...


----------



## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_the distributor on the early Corrado VR6 is single window

Ah, there's the rub. In such a case, I would look into EDIS as a cheap ignition option and drop the distributor. 
I'd say that it matters a lot when the spark comes, but that the fuel can come anytime before the intake valve opens--or continuously.


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

But thats where the concern for my venture comes in. Trying to keep my stock ignition. If I were to go standalone spark, I might as well do MSnS at that point... It's intriguing, is it not?


----------



## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (ShaggysGTI)*

Ah, I thought that the point was to have a CIS VR. You could remove the reluctor wheel from the distributor and cut another five evenly spaced slots, then use a complete CIS-E harness, knock box and ICM. The KS cars had a harness that tied all three units (CIS-E ECU, ICM and knock box) together into one harness.


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

See now this is the information I was looking for. Currently, the car in question is a 16V GTI. Idea's for the future are a 16VG60 but once again, that means megasquirt. So the reluctor wheel, inside of the VR distributor, I don't quite get where your are going with that statement. If there is only one slot on that wheel, then it is being used as a location device that tells the computer where the engine is located revolutionwise. How would 6 slots change this?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShaggysGTI* »_How would 6 slots change this?


and this thread ends in fail...


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Explain this fail you speak of....


----------



## MikkiJayne (Jan 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*


----------



## DubbinChris (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (MikkiJayne)*

If anybody knows what they're talking about in this thread then it's your moderator. If he has something to say, I'd listen. Not just because he's a mod, but b/c he certainly knows his way around CIS.


----------



## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

I cobbed this off a TDIclub member: 








I thought it was hilarious.


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

That's cuz it is. And my new background. Thank you!


----------



## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

In any case, you could always run fuel from CIS and MS for spark.. I am actually doing that now with my engine.. until I locate all my other parts for the full swap.








( I'm guessing if YOU decided to go that route route, you'd just go full MS though. )
Steve-


----------



## gtikarl (May 7, 2009)

*Re: (BSD)*

i have a vr6, never thought about the cis-e/vr6 combo. i love it, if anything this will give me some thing to ponder


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Well couldn't you run say, a MSD or Mallory ignition box to control the spark?


----------



## eightwaysanta (Oct 17, 2004)

*Re: (gtikarl)*

Get everything from a MB 6cyl cis. At a minimum you'd have to figure out the distributor and injector mounting. As far as the distributor goes mod MB dizzy to fit vr gear, or vr dizzy to fit MB "guts"?. I can't remember if the MB had the WUR, if so you'd have to mount that as well. Custom intake to mount injectors? If the mk2 you're using is a digi you'll have to upgrade the fuel pumps as well.


_Modified by eightwaysanta at 8:27 AM 10-4-2009_


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (eightwaysanta)*

i'd definitely want the vr ignition map
i know the vr brain will work without anything but the throttle position sensor
but i'm not sure if it would freak out without injector load on the ecu


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Based on my knowledge of ECU's, it probably would. These are MAF based engines, right?


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (ShaggysGTI)*

right, but without going into it much
i unplugged mine 
& it defaults to ignore/speed density
then i retuned idle air
maf sensors http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Maf isn't neccessarily a bad thing, but for this discussion, nothing we need. We need spark control for a odd firing 6 cylinder engine...


----------

