# Austria's Haider dies in accident (vehicle was a Phaeton)



## Vacheron (Oct 11, 2008)

*Austria's Haider dies in accident*

Hi Everyone.
I've been lurking here for a while now, but this motivated me to register, however I had hoped that my first post would have be a bit more positive.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new....html


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (Sky.GB)*

It looks like a Phaeton, which is the relevance for me. I found the posting interesting as well as sad.
I have an open mind about Haider he was a man who clearly had a big following in a, beautiful, country with a people who I admire.
Am I alone in wondering whether it was an accident? That is political.
PETER M


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## SteneB (May 19, 2007)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (PeterMills)*

The damages seems to be very large - I wonder what the speed of the vehicle where before the crash. And the vehicle where entering urban areas - and that seems suspicious. The car should not become this damaged in a relatively low speed impact. And should certainly not tumble if the speed where adequate for the surrondings...


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (SteneB)*

Those were my thoughts ...


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (PeterMills)*

Here's a YouTube video of the accident scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXX6Twku0Mk
Also see the pictures here:
http://afp.google.com/article/...oh1WA
It looks like it happened in/near a 50 km/h zone.
How fast would he have been going to end up rolling that badly?
Its sobering to see what can happen when it goes really wrong, even in something as sturdy as a Phaeton.


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## M1LUM (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (adamkodish)*

From the Times
"Haider, 58, is said to have been alone at the wheel of his VW Phaeton near the southern city of Klagenfurt when he veered off the road as he exceeded the speed limit while trying to overtake another car. He suffered head and chest injuries after the car rolled several times, and was pronounced dead in hospital."


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Seatbelts? Air bags? Even in a rollover if the seatbelt is on and the airbags deploy, you should not suffer fatal head and chest injuries in this car.


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## mhoepfin (Dec 20, 2007)

I would imagine no seatbelts.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_Seatbelts? Air bags? Even in a rollover if the seatbelt is on and the airbags deploy, you should not suffer fatal head and chest injuries in this car.

We know nothing of the circumstances other than the car going down an embankment and rolling. We don't know how fast the car was going and whether seat belts were worn.
Don't forget that forces involved in an impact go up exponentially in relation to speed. A head on collision at 70mph transmits _four _times the force of the same collision at 35mph. 
Phaetons are obviously strong and I'm sure the crush characteristics are well engineered, but there's only so much the car can do. I would think it would be virtually impossible to reliably account for a vehicle rolling at high speed. In fact the pictures suggest the structure stood up pretty well, even the roof. Remember, you don't want the structure to remain entirely intact, but to collapse in a controlled fashion, leaving the passenger cell intact. Also realize the missing doors may have occurred as a result of the rescue team gaining access.
I'll take my chances in the Phaeton over just about any other car.
Steven


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

This is the first confirmed death in a Phaeton car crash. Anyone care to confirm that?
An Austrian news report indicated that this VW Phaeton was Haider's official car as Governor of the province of Carinthia.
The picture below is very low resolution but might indicate deployment of one or more frontal airbag(s) as well as a side curtain airbag. I wonder whether:
1. Was Haider wearing a seatbelt?
2. Was there foreign object intrusion into the cabin as the vehicle crashed?
3. Was Haider's vehicle armored? In another forum someone mentioned that. I don't see why a Governor's car would be armored.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_This is the first confirmed death in a Phaeton car crash. Anyone care to confirm that? 

Certainly the first death that I am aware of.
Michael


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## SteneB (May 19, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Additional pictures placed at the site:
http://gallery.me.com/stene/100214
Stene


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

We don't know what happened exactly but this car was going fast, there is nothing called safe car at high speeds.


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## uk_nick (Mar 31, 2006)

Look where the driver's headrest is in relation to the roof and top of the rear door frame. Serious head injury time. Chilling.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: (SteneB)*

Based on SteneB's pictures, it does not look as if there was side curtain airbag deployment (and frankly, I don't think it is supposed to deploy in overturn events).
Another Austrian news report indicates this was a V6 Allrad (4-Motion). Per Austrian news reports, the car rolled over more than once and ended up with all wheels down. Austrian reports also indicate that the Phaeton hit a concrete post. 
This picture shows at the bottom (before the police-lane tape) the embankment where the car went off the road:


















Edit 6:42: highest res pic so far:








_Modified by Itzmann at 3:33 AM 10-12-2008_

_Modified by Itzmann at 3:39 AM 10-12-2008_ 

_Modified by Itzmann at 4:04 AM 10-12-2008_


_Modified by Itzmann at 4:31 AM 10-12-2008_


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Missing car doors & best summary so far: accident @ 130 KPH (80 MPH)*

The guy was wearing his seatbelt.
I had thought the doors had been removed by the rescue services, but...
"Both doors of the car were missing when the Notärztin at the accident site arrived"
Here is the best overall summary I have found (Times of London):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...5.ece 


_Modified by Itzmann at 5:05 AM 10-12-2008_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Missing car doors & best summary so far: accident @ 130 KPH (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_The guy was wearing his seatbelt.
I had thought the doors had been removed by the rescue services, but...
"Both doors of the car were missing when the Notärztin at the accident site arrived"
Here is the best overall summary I have found (Times of London):
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...5.ece 


Actually, the speedo stopped at 142kph or 88mph so he was going at least that fast when the accident occurred. The forces involved were tremendous. Not even a Phaeton can defy the laws of physics.
Steven


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## G132RLG (Dec 10, 2006)

You can see the doors lying on the ground on the right side of the car in Itzmann´s first photo and one of the ´missing´doors is visible Michael´s photo again on the right hand side of the car.


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## Waterwerkes (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (G132RLG)*

This is a great tragedy. The impact must have been tremendous. 5000+ lbs of steel landing on the roof... Definitely not a pretty sight.


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

Could the conspiracy theorists please form orderly queues and leave by the doors marked 'I love Princess Diana' and 'Elvis Lives'.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (Vacheron)*

According to CNN.com (emphasis mine):
Austrian investigators say far-right politician Joerg Haider's car was speeding at more than twice the posted limit when it crashed and killed him.
Police reconstructing the fatal accident in southern Austria say the speedometer in the wreckage of Haider's Volkswagen sedan was stuck at 142 kilometers per hour (88 miles per hour).
The speed limit on the stretch of road where he died was just 70 kilometers per hour (43 mph).
Investigators released their preliminary findings Sunday, a day after the 58-year-old Haider was killed.
Prosecutor Gottfried Kranz says the speed appeared to be the main factor in the deadly crash.
*Police said the car veered off the road after Haider overtook another vehicle, then struck a concrete pillar and rolled over. *Haider, who was alone in the car, suffered multiple injuries and died while being rushed to a hospital.


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## v1mbrt (Dec 25, 2007)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (car_guy)*

Reconstruction (German voice):
http://news.orf.at/video/iptvp...T.wmv
In general, car doors are build to withstand impacts from the outside (have a close look at the construction in your own car). This case the concrete pole did struck the roof/windshield/A-pillar from the top in an outside rotating way (about the weakest part of the car), and simply pushed the B-pillar to outwards, opening up the doors. Subsequent rotation did just throw off the doors as a result of centrifugal forces.
This does also match the drivers' injuries: severe head, breast and a nearly torn-off left arm. That's were the concrete pole came in. Airbags won't help for this kind of impacts/forces. Also broken neck as a result of extreme rotational acceleration.
I guess every other car would have been demolished significantly more with such an impact, maybe even break up the car in two pieces and a large debris field.
Current Austrian police investigation results say extreme speeding (142 vs 70 km/h allowed) as cause of the accident. Though the 142 km/h might not be realistic because the car did drive on slippery surface before the impact, which might have resulted in revving up the engine and as such much faster rotating wheels, without the actual car speed being that high.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (v1mbrt)*

Interesting video: the car flips _twice_ in the air before it lands again on its wheels. It all happens so fast. Most accidents actually occur at relatively low speeds, since drivers _do have a chance_ to apply brakes while on pavement. In this case, the car was on grass for the seconds prior to hitting the concrete curb, so speed reduction before hitting that concrete curb must have been minimal.
It looks like the deadly portion of the crash was the wheels hitting this concrete curb marked "N", causing the car to go sideways first and then, as the wheel caught on it, causing the car to flip sideways and go airborne.
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostre....html 



_Modified by Itzmann at 5:42 PM 10-12-2008_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (Itzmann)*

This photo illustrates the extent of the damage caused by impact with a solid object, and perhaps explains why the occupant perished. That particular area of the car (the A pillar) is made of ultra-high strength steel.
Michael


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (PanEuropean)*

Considering the forces involved, I an surprised that the car is even recognisably a Phaeton (although is it getting hard)
According to the Austrian reports, the car lost control on overtaking, slid up onto a concrete barrier/concrete wall to then collide with the concrete wall (see pict), the car then rolled twice after that...








There are no cars that I know of that would keep the occupants alive when crashing in hat manner at a speed of 88mph.



_Modified by Realist42 at 4:15 AM 10-14-2008_


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## mg.eggink (Apr 16, 2008)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (Realist42)*

More photos:
http://www.oe24.at/zeitung/oes...ewa=1

German comment says: Seat Belt was on, neck was broken and left arm cut nearly off,
MGE


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (PanEuropean)*

I read somewhere the car described as "new," i.e., probably a 2008 version.


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## knipdlo (Sep 17, 2008)

Note also in the closest and best resolution driver side view, where the driver's headrest is located... I would imagine a lot of intrusion occurred, and without the impact of the concrete he would have survived..


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_I read somewhere the car described as "new," i.e., probably a 2008 version.


I thought of that cos those wheels are new to me.


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## mbarrow67 (Dec 3, 2006)

*Re: Austria's Haider dies in accident (Kuwaity)*

Yes, it is almost certainly new - you can see the chrome strips along the front and around the fog-lights in the head-on photos.
He could have bought and fitted these himself, but on a government car this is probably unlikely!
What a mess.


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## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

It has just been released to the press that Haider had an blood alcohol level of 1.8 .


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## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (heisenberg2000)*

Autopsy Shows Haider Was Intoxicated
The party of deceased Austrian far-right populist politician Jörg Haider has confirmed that he was drunk when he took his last drive.
Austrian prosecutors have remained silent on the issue, but Jörg Haider's political party confirmed Wednesday that the far-right populist politician was driving drunk prior to his deadly crash in Klagenfurt last weekend. 

PHOTO GALLERY: JÖRG HAIDER'S FATAL CAR ACCIDENT
Click on a picture to launch the image gallery (14 Photos)
Stefan Petzner, who replaced Haider this week as the new head of the Alliance for Austria's Future (BZÖ) party said an autopsy had determined that Haider's blood-alcohol level was more than three times the legal limit. "It is true that Governor Jörg Haider was intoxicated at the time of the accident," Petzner said. "I can and must confirm that."
Just prior to Petzner's statement, the Austrian weekly News reported on its Web site that the coroner concluded Haider had been drunk behind the wheel. The politician had been "very drunk and incapable of driving."

NEWSLETTER
Sign up for Spiegel Online's daily newsletter and get the best of Der Spiegel's and Spiegel Online's international coverage in your In- Box everyday.
One day earlier, prosecutors reported that experts at Volkswagen had been able to tell by the computer system in Haider's badly damaged VW Phaeton sedan that he had been travelling at 142 kilometers (88 miles) per hour at the time of the fatal accident on a street with a speed limit of 70. Public officials, however, said they could not comment on his blood alcohol levels because of privacy laws.
A preliminary autopsy report found that Haider, 58, suffered from several serious injuries, each of which would have been enough to kill him. 
Haider, who just two weeks ago celebrated strong gains for his BZÖ party in Austrian elections, died at 1 a.m. Saturday morning after crashing his car while trying to pass another vehicle. 
dsl -- with wire reports


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (bobm)*

The chief engineer of the Austrian Touring Club (an automobile association, similar to AAA but with greater technical competence) has gone on record as stating that "Theoretically, it would be possible to drive the Phaeton through the community at 150 km/h (90 MPH), provided that the driver was sober..." Here is the link to the original news article, in German: http://www.kurier.at/nachrichten/248483.php
So, it appears that the primary contributing factor to the accident was that the driver was, regrettably, impaired. There is no mention of any deficiency of the Phaeton.
Michael


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## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

*Haider widow halts cremation amid suspicions*
Jörg Haider's corpse was sent for a second post-mortem in Italy today after the Austrian far-right leader's widow voiced fears that that his death in a high speed car crash in early October might not have been an accident. 

Senior members of his Alliance for the Future of Austria party said that Claudia Haider had serious doubts that her husband was killed as a result of drunk driving and suspected he may have been drugged. 
Mr Haider died after his VW Phaeton limousine left the road and somersaulted several times in the early hours of 11 October. He was driving at twice the speed limit, and an initial post mortem showed that he had four times the legal limit of alcohol in his bloodstream. 
However his widow has refused to accept those findings and insisted that her husband's cremation, which had been due to take place earlier this week, be postponed indefinitely. 
Mr Haider's former party colleagues said his body would be subjected to a second post-mortem in Italy and further tests by German pathologists to determine whether foul play may have played a role in his death. 
Claudia Haider was said to be highly sceptical of Austrian pathologists' conclusions that the 58-year-old politician had consumed such a large amount of alcohol in such a short space of time. She was reported to have said that such behaviour was not in his character and that she feared that he may have been given drugs. Party officials have said there were no skid marks on the road at the accident site and he may have already been unconscious when he crashed. 
However Gottfried Kranz, the Austrian state prosecutor who investigated the circumstances of the death, has insisted that no traces of drugs were found. "The tests showed no drugs, only alcohol," he said. 
There have been conflicting reports about Mr Haider's condition in the last hours and minutes before his death. Witnesses at a party that he attended in the town of Velden, in the southern state of Carinthia, before the accident have reported that he seemed quite sober. 
Shortly afterwards, however, Mr Haider was seen in a gay bar in the state capital, Klagenfurt where he was reported to have consumed a bottle of vodka with an unidentified male companion before getting into his car and driving away. 
Family fears that Mr Haider could have been drugged before his death, were made public only days after the politician's former deputy - 27-year-old Stefan Petzner - revealed that he had a gay love affair with the far right leader which they had begun several years ago. 
"We had a relationship that went far beyond friendship," Mr Petzner said during a radio interview. "Jorg and I were connected by something very special. He was the man in my life," he said. Mr Petzner became party leader after Mr Haider's death, but he was dismissed for outing himself earlier this week.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (bomb)*

I think it was very poor judgment on Mr. Petzner's part to 'out' Mr. Haider posthumously. The information benefits no-one and will likely cause distress to Mr. Haider's wife and children.
With the single exception of Kurier newspaper, the Austrian press has been very circumspect about this. This is consistent with the general belief in Austria that the private lives of individuals are - believe it or not - meant to be private.
Michael


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (bobm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobm* »_Party officials have said there were no skid marks on the road at the accident site and he may have already been unconscious when he crashed.

Do people still expect skid marks in the age of anti-lock brakes?
BTW, I agree with Michael on the outing of Haider by a third party. It's one thing to out yourself, it's another to out someone else, especially when they can no longer comment. Really bad taste.
Steven


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (car_guy)*

Far right politics and "man love" have always been ardent bed-fellows. Nothing new there.

I think Stefan Petzner has done the world a favour by highlighting that political extremists are driven by personal demons into self-contradictory and irrational positios on many aspects of life, both personal and private.
Since when has the hypocrisy of politicians been deserving of special protection?
And another thing: the wife of any politician is his principle supporter and both parties must eat the same soup: her and him.
So don't waste your pity on the Haiders of this world; rather, remember the people the Haiders of this world would persecute.
And more on topic, we really do have a conspiracy theory in the making now. Secretly drugged, eh? By whom: The Cook? The Thief? The Wife? Or his Lover??
This will run & run.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: (Aristoteles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Aristoteles* »_Far right politics and "man love" have always been ardent bed-fellows. Nothing new there.

Funny you say that. Because there were never any homosexuals in the left aisle of politics, uh?
Sheez.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Itzmann)*

Let's all be very careful here, folks, lest we unintentionally give offense.


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (Aristoteles)*

The Cook? The Thief? The Wife? Or his Lover??
whoa! do we have a greenaway fan here?


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (calmone)*

More a Greenaway-Mirren-Gambon-Roth fan.
My daughter worked at the Royal Court Theatre with that Michael Gambon and he thought she was something special (he showed class!).
No, really, I was just trying to introduce a note of levity. I have a profound distaste for fascists and other political extremists and this is not a nice person we're talking about here.
But I hope he had a ball with: the cook, the thief, the wife; and of course, his lover Stefan Pentzner.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: (Aristoteles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Aristoteles* »_and this is not a nice person we're talking about here


Funny for a not nice person to get elected twice to a governoship in a democratic country.
Eye of the voter-beholder and all that jazz, uh?


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_

Funny for a not nice person to get elected twice to a governoship in a democratic country.
Eye of the voter-beholder and all that jazz, uh?

Hugo Chávez's Election Results 
— 1998 presidential election —
Source: CNE data 
Candidate Votes % 
Chávez: 3,673,685 56% 
H. Salas: 2,613,161 40% 
Valid votes: 6,537,304 — 
Non-voting: 4,024,729 37% 
— 2000 presidential election —
Source: CNE data 
Candidate Votes % 
Hugo Chávez: 3,757,773 60% 
Francisco Arias: 2,359,459 38% 
Valid votes: 6,288,578 
Non-voting: 5,120,464 44% 
And then this:
Hugo Chávez's Election Results 
— 2004 recall referendum —
Recall Hugo Chávez?
Source: CNE data 
Candidate Votes % 
No: 5,800,629 59% 
Yes: 3,989,008 41% 
Non-voting: 4,222,269 30% 










So the answer is, it's perfectly possible whether fromleft or right._
Edit: Data input_


_Modified by Aristoteles at 11:16 AM 10-29-2008_


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## Sky.GB (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: (Itzmann)*

Hm, yes, funny how that happens. Let us also not forget the exceptional verbal talent we have in office in this country- who somehow was elected not once, but twice. There's always some catch 22 somewhere. blah.


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*UK election 2005*

UK general election 2005 results (% of votes cast):
Labour 36.91%
Conservative 33.86%
Liberal Democrat 23.09%
UK Independence 2.32%
Scottish National 1.59%
Others 2.23%
The overall turnout was 61.3%, so in one sense the winner was 'couldnt be bothered'.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

How many times was Robert Mugabe democratically elected? I can also think of another famous Austrian who was elected by a democracy...


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

...although only once.
He knew the people wouldn't make that mistake twice over.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Aristoteles)*

Hi Everyone:
I think this discussion about the unfortunate accident involving the Austrian governor's Phaeton has run its course... there's not much more to say concerning the car itself, the technical matters of the accident, occupant protection, that kind of stuff.
Although the recent flurry of posts have been light-hearted, carefully written, and well-intentioned, I think the time has come to close this discussion. My past experience as moderator has taught me that whenever a discussion starts down the path of politics, religion, stuff like that, no good ever comes of it.
Michael


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