# Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!!



## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

Ever since I have had my 91 GTI 8v it has had a really crappy brake pedal feel to it. It was spongy and it would travel a lot before I got much braking pressure. I had always thought that I could just bleed the brakes and it would help out some. So I did this (a few times) and it still sucked just the same. So I replaced my master cylinder and bleed the brakes again (a few times). Still the same. So I noticed my load adjusting rear proportioning valve was rusty and not working at all. So I replaced it and bleed the brakes (a few times again!!) Well each time I bleed the brakes it would be exactly the same as before, and I bleed them everyway I have ever heard to bleed brakes and nothing would make a difference after all of this. So I thought maybe my large rear drums in the back were out of adjustment. So I got a hell of a deal on some rear disks from a fellow vortexer and swapped them out the other night. Everything went smooth and the calipers work great and everything. At this same time I installed some SS brake lines. So I bleed the brakes again and I still have the exact same thing as I always have. I am 100% certain I don't have air in the lines after bleeding them about 30 different times and doing it everyway known to man. I get the same result everytime. So I am confident I don't have air in the lines. I am starting to think my brake booster is shot. The reason being is that I can get a nice hard pedal before turning the engine one. But after I turn it on the pedal sucks. I think my booster is shot. Is there a way to test these? I know these things hardly ever go bad but I am really starting to think mine is shot. Can anyone give me any advise at all. Please I am begging you guys


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## poiper (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

I don't think it would be that your brake booster is shot. If it was, it would mean that your pedal would be super hard. Try pulling the vacum tube off your booster and see how you like it. I drive my rally car without a booster for that exact reason.
You could also have an issue with a caliper, but check if you front rotors are still in wear spec, and check if you still have enough pad. Sometimes you have a light initial feedback because your pads/rotors retract really far due to the fact that they are worn.
I don't really know what the problem is, but I am trying to help!








Good luck!
P.Po


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (poiper)*

I appritiate it that you are at least trying. It seems to be more than most on here are doing. I have checked all my pads and calipers and everything checks out fine.


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## bugged (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Did you bench bleed the master? Is it new or rebuilt? Try Super Blue (ATE) or one of the other fluids designed for better feel.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (bugged)*

Yeap bench bleed the master cylinder and it is rebuilt. Even then it should not matter. I got the same exact feel with my old master cylinder as with the rebuilt one.


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## Djazair (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

I'm having the same problem. Didn't read your post before writing mine. My master cylinder is brand new and I have SS lines. Still the pedal is soft. What else is there in the hydraulic system to change?


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## bugged (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Djazair)*

Then I agree with poiper, low pads will give these sympt., as will rears not adjusting out.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (bugged)*

Yes I would agree that not having much pads left will cause this. No question about that from me. But I have checked mine out and I have at least 3/4 life left on each pad. I have a new rebuilt master cylinder that has been properly bench bleed, SS lines, good pad life, properly working calipers, a new rear proportioning valve, inspected all of the hard lines, etc. All the basics have been covered. Now I have a question about the rear calipers adjusting. I have heard that some how the e-brake adjusts them. Something like everytime it is set it screws out the piston in the caliper and adjusts its travel. Does anybody know about this. I still don't think this is my problem because I have the same issue with or without rear disks. I had the exact same thing when I still had rear drums.
Djazair as far as to what is the the brake system (at least on my 91 GTI without ABS) there is the master cylinder, vacuum booster, hard lines, proportioning valve, calipers, pads, rotors, etc.


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## GR8CAR (Oct 8, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

maybe the diafragm of your booster is perforated!


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (GR8CAR)*

Please explain? I think the diaphram is shot but I don't know how something like this would exactly go bad.


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## mattmcleod (Aug 23, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Caleb, i understand exactly how you feel. Ever since i had a MC fail a year ago i have had vague, mushy brakes. Everything is currently brand new- MC, pads (tried two kinds), rotors, lines, rear cylinders. I have bled it 6 or 7 times (pressure bleeder and regular bleeding) with absolutely no change in pedal feel.








I also suspect my booster may be bad (despite the fact that all vaccuum lines are in good shape) however everyone says they never go bad.I wonder if it possible that the sudden failure of the old MC put some sudden strain on the booster diaphragm that caused it to fail.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (mattmcleod)*

Well I now have some new light to shine on the subject. I am majoring in Industrial Automotive Technology at college and I asked my professor about this problem I have been having. I have him my whole story in all it glory. I asked him if he had ever heard of a brake booster going bad and he said oh yeah! I was very shocked because everyone I had ever talked to before said they never go bad and very very rarely if they do. I mean he didn't say it was a common problem by any means but he lead me to believe it was a more coomon problem then previously thought. Well today I was working on a bunch of stuff on my car so I decided to disconnect the brake booster and run without it and see what kind of a difference I would have. Well I disconnected everything and fired up the car and let it idle. I mashed the brakes and they were harder than a rock!!! So I thought well lets take it out for a drive. I went around the block and the pedal was DAMN HARD and I mean VERY VERY HARD!!! I loved it. Very confidence inspiring. But the downside is I had very crappy brakes. I mean a person would be in trouble if they were to encounter a downhill section heaven forbid. You could absolutly put all your strength your right foot could muster into it and you could get them to lock up but it took serious effort. Not good. So I got home and connected everything back up. Test drove and I am back to the same crappy pedal. So by this recent evidence and countless other thoughts and tests on the matter I believe my brake booster is shot. I found a new one on one of the VW aftermarket parts places for $160 which is kind of high I thought but not outrageous. I am going to check with my parts guy tomarrow and see what he can do and I might also check around at the disount parts stores in town. I think I am going to replace mine and see what happens. I will keep you posted.


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## mattmcleod (Aug 23, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

I look forward to your post.This problem has been bothering me for a long time now. You might also consider getting a junkyard unit- you could probably get it pretty cheaply. Of course, still no guarantee that it would work properly though.I am also interested in how much of a PITA removal of the booster is- i seem to recall that it has some bolts that are a bit difficult ot get at.Good luck with the swap.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Please let us know what the result is. I have a 2001 GTI which I race a lot and have had a mushy pedal for sometime without figuring whats wrong. Same symptoms as yours and I've tried everything.


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Familiar problem...I drove an 80 Scirocco around with a lame MC for 3yrs. (Or you may still have air in the system if you've attempted bleeding the system recently)
If you are driving along and turn your car off, then after pressing your brakes 2-3 times *the pedal gets very stiff, your booster and diaphragm are OK* (trust me on this!). Crank the car and the mushiness comes back->this means the power assist is _working_.
You probably just got a bad MC, just change the one you have for another one (and btw, they don't have to be bench bled, but you'll spend less time under the car that way).
If you're doing your own bleeding make sure you're bleeding each caliper as follows:
1.Open bleeder screw.
2.Have helper press *and hold* brake pedal.
3.Close bleeder screw.
4.Tell helper to release brake pedal.
I've never had spongy pedal problems after using the above procedure.
HTH










[Modified by Electron Man, 4:38 PM 5-7-2002]


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Electron Man)*

I have a booster on the way in a few days so I will repost then to give you guys the latest.


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Caleb,
What size master cylinder do you have? I noticed you said you did the rear disc conversion, but made no mention of wether you change out the m/c with the disc's. 

The rear discs require more fluid movement than drums, and need the 22mm m/c. The result of using the drum m/c with the discs is usually excessive pedal travel. So if you removed the problematic rear drums, then put on discs with the small m/c, you may have corrected the problem, but not realized it because of the m/c is now to small for the disc's and exibits the same spongy feel. 
In all likelyhood, your booster is fine. A failed booster means no power assist, which means rock hard impossible to move pedal. The very same that you experienced when you disconnected the vacuum lines.
If all the components are are fine (calipers etc), the pads have a decent amount left, and your m/c is the right size, it really points back to air. I've suggested serval times on this forum to people to pressure bleed thier systems, and if that doesn't work, then gravity bleed. I've talked to many techs who've been baffled by spongy pedals, and it almost always comes down to air. Technicians swear up and down that one way is as good as another when if comes to bleeding, and 99% of the time that's right. Sometimes hydrolic systems just get a funny pocket of air that won't go away. 
I spoke to vw/audi mechanic that had been in the industry for better than 30 years, and he once had a system that would not bleed properly. They tried everything. The thing that finally worked was pressure bleeding the system backwards! They built an aparatus that pressure bled from the caliper up through the master, and it worked. 
Point is, you may still have air.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! ([email protected])*

I do not buy into the 22mm master cylinder bit myself. And to my knowledge only 90-92 Jetta GLI's had a 22mm master cylinder and Corrado's. Well that A2 generation of cars that is. So even GTI's with rear disks didn't have a 22mm mc. Also each and every time I do something I get the EXACT SAME THING. Nothing changes in the slightest. So this also leads me to believe that if I changed the rear disks out but the mc size was holding me back there would have been at the very least a slight change. As for the air debate you very well could be right. I don't expect and miracles from the booster but I have changed everything else and I might as well. You do have a point about the pedal feel with the booster though. Oh well f*uck it. In order to bleed the lines I have tried every single method I know of other than bleeding backwards. I have heard of it but have not tried it yet. I have pressure bleed from the resevore cap and got the same old sh!t. No change whatsoever. I very well could still have air but I am open to any and all ideas on how to get it out. I can't get it out. I have tired everything. Well other than bleeding them backwards.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Update info*

Ok I wanted to update this post for those who were following it. I get my brake booster in and installed in. It has helped a minimal amount but not solution I was hoping for. Now every since component in my brake system is new other than the hard lines. I am convenced I still have air in the lines but I just can't get it out. I have tried everything twice. I have bleed those damn things at least two dozen times and I can't get it figured out. I am just going to brake down and take it to a guy I know who owns a shop. I will just tell him the whole story as long as it is so he knows what he is up against. The car from hell in this case. I will see what happens. I am also open to any and all brake bleeding advice. I have tried everyway I know of except one. So if you have a method please post in detail.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: Update info (Caleb)*

The air may be stuck in a pocket in the caliper. Try opening up the bleeder nipple while retracting all the pistons. Also, try tapping the caliper with a mallet.


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## bugged (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Update info (reflexgti)*

Bleeding under pressure should have done it, if it was air. I re-read your post and it mentioned the new M/C was actually a rebuild. Every time I have had bad pedal feel (except with frozen calipers) it was the M/C. After many years of monkeying with many brands of stock and racing brakes, I would never ever get rebuilds. My guess is that the M/C seals sucks or the shaft is too worn.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Update info (bugged)*

Well I had wondered about that some but since the rebuilt 20mm unit was very cheap and a 22mm new unit it quite expensive I went with the rebuilt. I might screw with brake bleeding a little more and see what I can come up with. I only have a few other brake system mods and things I need to screw with so hopefully I will be done with the whole brake system before long. I just hate doing brakes so much.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Update info (Caleb)*

I have following your brake situation closely as I have the very same problem with my 90 Cabby. The brake fluid ran the color of Coke cola & I have bled the system now it is lighter then apple juice w/a new MC. Brakes are still spongy! 
My question when you installed your MC did you have a gasket/O-ring between the MC and the Booster? When I took it apart there wasn't one there nor was there one included with the new one, however I have seen pictures of there being a gasket/O-ring there.
Also, I am going to try gravity bleeding my brakes tonight. I'm wearing out my Nikes stopping like Fred Flinstone...


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Update info (RedRedOne)*

It looks like I am in the same boat as you are with the gasket between the booster and MC. None when I took mine off and none with the rebuilt MC. I think in the Bentley there is one shown in the assy. drawing. Wonder what the deal is


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Update info (Caleb)*

Hey last night I gravity bled my brakes w/very little change. I suspect maybe there is a problem w/the Vacuum system, I revved the engine at 4000rpms for about 15 seconds and I notice a bit more resistance from the brake pedal. But once the car went to idle the brakes became soft again. I checked some other chat boards and many comments were made about the importance of the O-ring between the MC & the booster. I think that may be a source of vacuum problems. I got to get my hands on one of those O-rings. Also check your vacuum hose & check valve from the booster to the top of the engine.


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## poiper (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Update info (RedRedOne)*

The one thing I don't understand about this whole situation is the vacum problem you guys are talking about. Perhaps somebody can elighten me on this.
If you have more vacum than you need, the brake pedal should be softer since the vacum is helping you push the pedal. If you take away the vacum, the pedal gets really hard and it is hard to stop. The problem is that the pedal feels spongy when you have vacum, it's not the lack of vacum that's the problem, you're pedal would be too hard then.
Caleb, I really feel sorry for you. You have tried super hard to get good pedal feel with no luck, I am surprised you haven't driven the car off a cliff yet. I hope you get it fixed soon dude.
Personally, I still think you have a front caliper issue, or your rotors/pad combo is too thin up front. Get a shop to bleed that brakes and see what they say. Tell them you want the pedal rock hard or you don't pay.
Again, I don't know exactly what the problem is, I just want to help... I just hope you get it solved.
Good luck,
P.Po


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Update info (poiper)*

Take a look at this link,
/www.cardone.com/English/Club/Products/Brakes/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/pt25-50.asp
it shows how a faulty seal betwwen the MC and booster can be a source of brake fluid leakage. I have even heard of brake fluid leaking into the boostter. As far as vacuum I dont know exactly how it all works but I am sure there has got to be some balance there. Maybe the vacuum is advancing some internal component to the point where the pedal mechanism can reach the cylinder and therefore no brake feel...not sure??? One thing I know I have go to get that O-ring/seal I think that is the source of the problem! 
[Modified by RedRedOne, 11:09 AM 5-30-2002]


[Modified by RedRedOne, 11:09 AM 5-30-2002]


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## poiper (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Not sure if this was said so don't kill me for being ignorant.
When bleeding the brakes, be sure that the spring loaded propotioning valve is open. Meaning that you either tie it up to the frame or don't have the suspension extend in some way. This will certainly lead to a spongy peddle while bleeding if you have some air trapped.... you are not pumping enough to get it out. Make sure you don't have the proportioning valve cutting of the fluid flow while bleeding.


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## rough_8v (Mar 30, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (poiper)*

I was too lazy to read through the wholw thread, but do you have the "Gunson easibleed" there? basically it uses the pressure from a tyre to pressure-bleed your system. You are meant to limit it to 9psi or so but any time I have air in the lines, I have bumped it up to about 30psi - and it really blows out those bubbles....... an airlock in your lines rises anyway, so you want to expel it as soon as......
PRZ


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## Quickie (Dec 27, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (poiper)*

quote:[HR][/HR]When bleeding the brakes, be sure that the spring loaded propotioning valve is open. Meaning that you either tie it up to the frame or don't have the suspension extend in some way. [HR][/HR]​Where is this located? Do the metal lines go into that from the MC?


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## Quickie (Dec 27, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

I'm sure glad I read this thread. I'm having the same problem. I was about to buy some stainless brake lines, but now I won't. 
Caleb, please let us know what the mechanic says about this. I think we're all anxiously awaiting a verdict.








This problem is really puzzling me. What's odd is that the braking seems so vague, but when I stamp on the brakes really hard, I can lock up the passenger side front wheel, but not the others.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Quickie)*

Hey guys has anyone had positive results with there brake woes??? I was able to install the seal between MC & booster, right away I felt a slight difference the pedal was offering some resist. However, after I re-bleed the system the pedal went back to its old spongy self. I tested the Check Valve between booster & throttle body and it functions fine. So what I am going to do is:
1) bleed from the MC, open each line and bleed
2) gravity bleed for an hour or so
3) bleed each line thoroughly (I may pressure bleed)
If that doesn't work it will have to go to the mechanic.
Question, are there any other test or symptoms in checking out the booster for malfunction other then pressing pedal with car off then with car on???


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## pipes (Apr 7, 2000)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

When I did my rotors & pads, I didn't flush my brake fluid. Was real bad. Just quickly bled them and it was spongy.
I then flushed my system with a power brake bleeder, using Valvoline synthetic brake fluid (bought at AutoZone) (noticed a lot of air in the lines), and then my pads wore in, the brake peddle is very firm. I bought a power brake bleeder for $45 thru parts4vw.com
I flushed them going to the farthest tire (RR), then LR, then RF, then LF.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (pipes)*

When using the Power Bleeder do you put the fluid into the Power Bleeder container or do you have to continue to add fluid to the resevoir??? Also, how does or does it regulate the pressure it puts into the system??? It sounds like this might remove all the air from the lines and that will tell me whether or not I have a further problem with the booster. Thanks!


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## pipes (Apr 7, 2000)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

The bleeder has a hand pump that has a PSI gauge. You will have to put about 2 quarts of fluid in the bleeder, then pump to PSI, then go to each tire and open the valve.
Check the bleeder to make sure your PSI are constant, or near the level documented in the instruction (around 15 psi no higher I believe).
When I bled them, my brake fluid was dirty and had air. The synthetic type I bought was around $6 per quart... (silver gold bottle)


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Hey Caleb, have you had any luck yet or did you find any other new info???
I did a pressure bleed starting at the MC then at each corner, I am confident I got all the air out however,my results were the same. But I did notice a hissing under the hood after the engine was turned off. I had a dry rotted hose at the Vacuum Resevoir, I replaced it, no more hissing. I also go some resistance from the brake pedal, it is still spongy but there was a difference. I am going to examine more vacuum hoses. 
I think I may need to replace the right rear brake cylinder I thought I saw a few drops of fluid come out as I was doing the pressure bleed. 
HEY GUYS LETS KEEP TALKING, WE NEED YOUR HELP THANKS!!!


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## poondawg (Jan 8, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

last week i was getting some body work on the front strut tower and the retard doing the work grazed the brake line in that area. then he tried to 'beef up' the damaged area by brazing! naturally the line blew up. anyway, when they replaced the line and tried to bleed the system, they couldn't get a solid feel - which i've been experiencing for some time now. and while they were bleeding and trying to get the air out, rear brakes (drums) would work intermitently, or not very strong when they did. being the sketchy retards that they are (im just bitter that they made me pay for the brake line and work involved in replacing - eventhough it was their fault) they just let me leave. now the brakes are still spongy and closer to the floor than before. they attempted each corner at least 3 times before they gave up/felt it was as good as it'll get, and still it is crappy now. 
i've been neglecting them since im going g60 route any day now, but i'll make sure i inspect everything and see what happens with the g60 calipers.
Nik


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## Speedy- (Oct 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (pipes)*

Hey guys I have this problem on my '91 Corrado G60 too!
My brakes were fine, until I took it to a friends shop who while changing my CV boots, put some EBC Greenstuff pads in for me.
I picked the car up, drove it out of the place and the pedal almost hit the floor! He seemed think this was normal while the pads were bedding in (yeah right!).. I let them bed in gently for a while and yes they did get slightly better as I knew they would, but my pedal was still spongy as hell...
I tried bleeding the system myself a few times and a couple of shops have tried but still the same vague spongy feel, a couple of places thought it was my Master Cylinder too, so I replaced this, flushed the system with new fluid and still the same damn thing!!!
Wish I'd never let that grease monkey loose on my brakes now...
One thing I have noticed is that when the car is idling, if you pump the brake pedal a few times in sucession the revs on the engine will increase 300 or so rpm, is this normal? I've been told this could be due to a worn brake servo?
Think I might just install an anchor to throw out the window when I need to pull up sharp.. ;-)
Thanks guys.


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## Azulraven (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Speedy-)*

Caleb, when you hit your brakes do you get any pressure at all? or does the pedal go straight to the floor? I get NO pressure at all on mine, and i've attempted to bleed the thing who knows how many times and still no changes. I've changed the MC, the calipers are good.....i'm running out of options here......good luck on yours and i'll keep you posted if i find anything out with mine.
Raven


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Azulraven)*

Sorry for the late response guys. I have been on vacation in Florida for a week and forgot all about my brake problems. Damn was that nice







Well here I am back in the real world of work and car problems







I have yet to have a chance to take my car to a mechanic but after reading other peoples experiences I don't know if I will. I trust this mechanic very much as go to him for tires and whenever I need a lift so that is not the problem but since others have had mechanics bleed the brakes and got the same results they did at home I don't know what to do. I have also tried a million different bleeding techniques. As for my pedal pressure. I have some but it doesn't do much or have much pressure untill I press it for a couple of inches. After that I have decent but not great pressure and feel. I know I have checked out the majority of my vacuum booster vacuum lines but I will check again. I will also look at and test my check valve. Maybe I can put the seal inbetween the MC and booster. I will see what happens. Right now my brake problems have kind of had to take a back seat to a bunch of other problems such as a leaky oil pan gasket which has caused as much pain as my brakes and to top it all of my damn hatch won't open







To many problems not enough time. Well I am off from work the next two days and I am going to try to get some stuff done. I will keep everybody posted maybe we can keep this topic active for a while and get a solution for everyone.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Caleb, did your oil pan gasket start leaking all of a sudden? Mine did around the same time the brakes had problems. I am going to have to change mine maybe there is some vacuum problem there. Again I don't know but at this point I am willing to try almost anything


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## Just Some Guy1 (Jan 7, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Caleb, did your oil pan gasket start leaking all of a sudden? Mine did around the same time the brakes had problems. I am going to have to change mine maybe there is some vacuum problem there. Again I don't know but at this point I am willing to try almost anything







[HR][/HR]​I sent your reply via All Experts.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

No the oil pan gasket has leaked for awhile but has just been a constant battle because for some reason I can't get it to seal. I just looked at it again today after "fixing" it last Friday. Well it still freakin leaks. I now have 3 stripped thread holes and one broken off bolt. I have attempted a fix so many times I have exceeded the tensile strength of the bolts and I am starting to snap them off


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## spaz_666 (Jan 28, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...I have also tried a million different bleeding techniques. As for my pedal pressure. I have some but it doesn't do much or have much pressure untill I press it for a couple of inches. After that I have decent but not great pressure and feel....[HR][/HR]​i'm having the EXACT same problem with my MkIII Jetta 2.0-Litre. 4-wheel disk, no ABS, stock calipers. Here's what's been done so far in an effort to improve braking: Newer mintex pads, newer Autotech rotors (front & rear), new Autotech SS braided lines, NEW (NOT REBUILT) 22mm Master Cylinder (with NEW main seal between booster & MC, NEW seals between MC & reservoir, and NEW locking nuts, properly torqued with torque wrench, holding MC to booster).
Checked all brakeline unions - no leaks.
Checked all vac lines - no leaks.
(fluid level in reservoir doesn't drop, so i don't think it's a brake LINE prob)
Checked the one way valve on vac line from booster - working.
Checked bleeder valves - no leaks.
Checked caliper cylinders - no leaks.
Pads are not heat glazed or oil-soaked.
With engine off or vac disconnected from booster, pedal goes rock hard.
Bled every way possible (even held up rear axle with jack to open up rear proportioning valve) - no change.
Used brand new SEALED bottles of Castrol GT-LMA Dot4+ each time.

Has anyone tried replacing the booster yet? i know that if your pedal goes hard without vacume, the booster is supposedly working, but i'm running out of ideas here.
HELP!
Edit: Yes, i did bench bleed the new MC before installing it.


[Modified by spaz_666, 5:54 PM 6-24-2002]


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (spaz_666)*

Well I am afraid we are screwed. I have not done the extensive testing and replacements of stuff that you have but I have replaced my booster and I can tell you don't waste your money. If your brakes are rock hard but you have no braking power then your brake booster is the problem but if the pedal is soft like mine is then the booster is the problem. I replaced mine after running out of ideas but it didn't help at all. I have thought about my gasket between the MC and booster but if you have a new one on yours and you have done a whole lot more to track down the problem than I have this is not all that encouraging. I am totally left without a clue now. One new thing I do have to share. I have noticed lately that when braking and coming to a stop the pedal would drop a little more in mid-brake. I mean I would have my foot on the pedal with constant pressure and then it would drop just a hair while keeping the same pressure. Just noticed this recently and it doesn't do it every time. Anybody have new ideas on this?


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## spaz_666 (Jan 28, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Well, i still haven't replaced the rear brake proportioning valve. There is a chance it may be defective. To test it, however, Bentley says required expensive testing equipment that can measure insanely high PSI and recommends taking the vehicle to a mechanic so equipped.
However, some good news... i tried bleeding again. This time, though, instead of supporting the rear of the car at the hard points just ahead of the rear suspension mounts, i supported the rear on jack stands positioned at the *end* of the trailing arms, just under the mounting point for the rear dampers. This allowed the weight of the car to compress the rear suspension, which seems to have helped open the prop-valve more than previously. My pedal feels better - not where it should be, but better. Now i can drive my MkIII Jetta without fear of plowing into stopped traffic, or hitting the brakes about half-a-block before i should need to!
i'm probably going to try replacing the rear prop-valve. Or perhaps first taking the car in to have the existing valve adjusted.
Anyone else have any suggestions?
Thanks


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## Azulraven (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (spaz_666)*

Any updates on the brake situations here?


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Azulraven)*

No real news from me but I do plan to take a look at everything mentioned in this post before long. I just need to have the time to do it. Anybody else have a chance to check into their situation?


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## spaz_666 (Jan 28, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Haven't changed anything since my last up-date. i'm still driving around with _okay_ brakes. i'm currently trying to source an affordable replacement brake booster.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

Basically,I am starting from scratch. I got another MC & bench bleed it properly (I'm confident about this I also took pics). At this point, I have installed the MC and now I need to bleed the entire system. I am debating whether or not to purchase Speed Bleeders to assist with this. But my plan is to bleed as long and as many times as possible to get about 1 pint of fluid per corner. 
One thing I noticed when I was bench bleeding is that the pumping had to be swift enough to not allow the air to back back into the MC. I also didn't let the shaft come all the way back when pumping.
I initially, used the Mityvac vacuum bleeder, but I suspect it's vacuum is actually pulling air through the bleeder screws. This time I will not use that tool.
Thats my update!


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

I have used the same MityVac brake bleeder myself. It will pull air bubbles through the threads of the bleeder valves but it even tells you it will do this in the manual if you read it carefully. That should not affect bubbles in the system though as it is making them after the caliper lets say. No bubbles from this end up in the brake system. Even at that I have had no luck whatsoever with the MityVac. I rigged up a pressure bleeder using my MC cap and even pressure bleed mine from the top down. I did get a lot of bubbles out that I did not get out the conventional way but that still did not solve my problem. I plan to look at my P-valve a little further. It is new but I think there is a small hole where I can actually pin in open or closed whatever you are supposed to do. This will in effect let the fluid flow as free as possible and reduce the chance of bubbles after the p-valve. Previously I had just done it with the wheels on the ground and everything as it would be as if i was driving down the road. Well that didn't seem to help much over any other method. I think that my MC could be suspect as my pedal is dropping a little in mid-brake lets call it with no added pressure. I might try to get a new MC on of these days and check out my check valve and seal between the MC and the booster. Other than that I am clueless and doomed to have sh!tty brakes in that car forever.


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## fat biker (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

I have followed this tale of woe
I believe you have one of two problems;
1. defective MC
2. air in the system
I know, you replaced the MC, sometimes rebuilt units are DOA
I know, you bleed the brakes till the cows came home.
I have read of others bleed...bleed and still air in the system.
I use the Mity-Vac and it works well for me.
Can't recall if you flushed the brake fluid. This is recommended every two years.
HTH
fat biker


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (fat biker)*

This problem just hit me. I braked hard while my brakes were very hot and the cars ABS went off. Brake pedal fell to the floor and now my brakes are very soft, the pedal falls all the way down before they really engage. The dealership has replaced the MC which didn't fix the problem and they are currently working with VWOA to try to find out what it could be.
I was hoping to find the solution here but I guess I'll have to wait until they hear back from VWOA who also probably wont know what is wrong.


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## bugged (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (psalm)*

Caleb and I had this same discussion months ago in this same thread.
The MC is bad! Several of you have other problems, mainly with the bleeding proceedure. But let's not confuse this with other, unrelated issues.
1. If you suddenly lose pedal resistance in a fast run, you have fluid boiling. Boil it hot enough and you get bubbles. Get it bled professionally. Think about maintenence and upgrading the fluid.
2. If the braking gets suddenly bad just after the pad replacement, and doesn't get better after a dozen stops-you didn't bed them right or bleed them correctly.
3. If the braking just sucks and you have drum brakes, replace all of your braking system or sell the car.
4. If the braking sucks and the pedal is rock hard, your booster is shot (and, yes, you would be the first person)
5. If the braking just sucks, but the pads are fine and the fluid was replaced every TWO YEARS. The MC, brake slave, or the proportioning valve is/are shot.
If you have a 6-10 year old MC. Replace it with a BRAND NEW MC, and don't forget the gasket. I have seen 5-yr-old MC completely shot because the owner just let the pads wear to the backing and the seals wore out.
Do you have a soft pedal, does the pedal seem to settle a bit at stop lights, or does it seem disproportional? Get a brand new MC.
The brake slave on the brake pedal goes bad too. Check for small leaks around the piston. 
The proportioning valve spring can be just pulled off. This thing will occasionally leak, or most likely rust into one position. This will give a firm pedal, but the rears will get super hot after a high speed brake.
I personally replace pads with the caliper line bleed tubed and cracked slightly. This way guarantees fresh fluid throughout the system, and that I don't force rubber/air/etc. back into the master cyl. I also NEVER pump the brakes to the floor when pumping old fluid out. This will kill an old MC asap.
Also, I always use caliper grease on the sliders, makes a substantial difference.


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (bugged)*

My master cylinder was replaced w/a new master cylinder - brakes were bled 4 times by the dealership once w/their computer hooked up (code is 5051 for what they did, whatever that means). They claimed it was fixed today and I picked it up but it was still the same. They're working on it some more. Brake lines check out ok, no balooning, I guess they're checking the calipers next even though there are no visible leaks.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (bugged)*

Dude, thanks for your input! One thing that appreciate that Psalm is doing is having the dealer address the problem (spongy brakes). The fact that the dealer is having trouble bleeding the system points out to me that there is something, somewhere fundementally wrong with either the bleeding procedure or tools used to effectively bleed the brakes.
I'm still having a time bleeding my Cabby, I installed Speed Bleeders up front last week and they worked well up front. The rear ones I ordered were the not the right size. I have never had brake bleeding issues before with any of the other vehicles I've worked on.
Maybe something else needs to be adjusted, maybe a the larger MC is needed to effectively move more fluid...I am curious what is this brake slave you are refering to???
Again thanks dude, lets find a solution that can be documented. My next move is to check out recall documents for any suspect brake system components.


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## bugged (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

The dealer was REQUIRED to use the VAG EACH time he bled the ABS brakes. That is probably the root of the problem right there. The ABS is a ratsnest of lines and places where small bubbles can stick. 
The vw is notorious for bleeding problems. I don't know why because the systems are very similar in all cars. Many people use pressure or vacuum bleeders.
The slave is a small piston operated by the clutch pedal. The vw/audi system uses a combined brake/clutch fluid loop. The MS reserv. works for both.


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

Ok, the dealership at this point is randomly replacing parts I think. They just ordered a new booster which will be in Monday. I have a feeling it's probably just air in the lines but whatever. I have a car I can use until I get this one back, so I'm going to just let them plug away until they figure it out. Quite a few people have suggested it may be the booster, but someone here has already tried it so I'm not getting my hopes up.
I'll let you folks know either way.


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (psalm)*

I talked to the mechanic today. He said that my booster was leaking internally. I asked him how he knew as it's a sealed system and he said that the VW tech line told him so. We'll see.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (bugged)*

Any ideas if we can cycle the abs pump using a vag-com?


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (psalm)*

Don't expect any solutions with a new booster. I replaced mine and it did nothing. If you take the booster off completly and run without one your pedal will be extreamly stiff but you will have very little brakes. And you will wear your right foot out either that or your muscles in your right leg will become much larger than your left because it requires that much effort. If you pedal is hard as a rock and the brakes don't work all that great look into a new booster if not don't worry about it. Trust me I have been through it all. I have a rebuilt MC, new booster, new P-valve, bleed the lines untill I could bleed no more due to physical exhaustion. I think a new mc is what I need but other have replaced this and got no solution so it scares me to put in a new one. One of these days I will have all new components and that will mean that the only thing left is air in the lines.


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

quote:[HR][/HR]. So I got a hell of a deal on some rear disks from a fellow vortexer and swapped them out the other night. Everything went smooth and the calipers work great and everything.[HR][/HR]​Two questions
1) Are you sure you put the calipers on right side up? If you mount them upside down (and on the opposite side of the car), they fit, but you'll never get them bled properly.
2) Did you pre-bleed the calipers before you bolted them up. The procedure is in the Bentley book in the section on the rear disk brakes. I think you point the pistons straight down and open the bleeder screws and let them gravity bleed that way before you mount them. If you don't, there *will* be air trapped above the bleed screw and nothing you do to bleed them will fix the spongey pedal. 
Also, what proportioning device are you using with the new disks? Did you get teh one specifically for the rear disk brake setup? If you're using a suspension mounted brake pressure regulator for drum brakes, the calipers will drag. They will also drag wit the "combination valve" designed for drum brakes. You have to use a proportioning valve or suspension attached (load sensing) pressure regulator that was designed for disk brakes.


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## EpicVW (Feb 10, 2000)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Racer_X)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The vw is notorious for bleeding problems. I don't know why because the systems are very similar in all cars. Many people use pressure or vacuum bleeders.[HR][/HR]​I agree. I spent $45 on a vacuum bleeder after not being sucessful in bleeding my brakes the traditional (person pumping the brakes) way. It certainly was the best $45 I've spent in a while, and the brakes are rock solid!


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## REDJETTAMK2 (Jun 7, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (passatrcr)*

jesus. I hate to say this, but thank god I'm not the only one who is going through this.
I recently did the drum to disc's swap last week, and had the same problem with the spongy pedal, all the way to the floor. So I found that the right rear caliper was shot. I rebuilt it and it works only like 50%, so I'm getting a new one tomorrow. I did the 22 M.C today, but didn't try it due to waiting for the caliper.
But reading this post and what everyone has said, it's starting to scare the hell out of me. I mean if it still does it even after changing a bunch of things, what do I do now???? I'm just as stumped as everyone who has replied. But please people, keep replying with some ideas. Is anyone a VW tech on here that can help?


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (REDJETTAMK2)*

Latest news -
They replaced the brake booster, and to no surprise that didn't fix the problem. Talked to them today and they said "We found another bad part" as if the master cylinder and my booster were actually bad "We need to replace your hydrolic pump unit as it's bad too, it's on rush order and will be in tomorrow".
At this point I just feel sorry for my warranty company but frankly am amazed they are covering it all.
I'll let you know if this fixes it.


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Solution found!! (for me anyway)*

Ok, here's the deal. I at least had air stuck in my ABS unit. There isn't any way to get this out via bleeding the brakes, so what you have to do (according a technician that they had to call down from VWOA) is get the car up to around 65mph and slam on the brakes so that ABS kicks in for a good while. This will flood the ABS unit with brake fluid, pushing out any air that is trapped inside into the normal brake lines. Then it's a simple brake bleed to get the air out of the lines and voila. Working brakes.
I hope that this helps a bunch of you.


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Solution found!! (psalm)*

Did they actually do this yet??? To me there has got to be a better method of bleeding that ABS unit, how do they do when they built the car, what if that doesnt work and your at 65mph with no brakes???
They should have at least suggested spinning the front tires is some on wet pavement to activate the traction control which uses the ABS system!!!
There should be some electronic tool available by VW to activate the ABS unit effectively allow the tech to "bench bleed" the unit.
Anyway, I hope it works, because I know your about ready for some performance driving. I will be pressure bleeding my car this weekend, I vaccum bleed the rears earlier this week with a slight increase in pedal pressure. Good Luck


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Solution found!! (RedRedOne)*

Yeah, this has already been done. It worked and my brakes are now as good as new.. quite literally as I have a new master cylinder, brake booster and some other part of the hydrolic unit that I didn't actually need.
I think the reason you can't use the traction controll is because it doesn't use ABS as much as actually braking and having them kick in.
Good luck, I hope everyone else is as successful as I was. Vaccum bleeding/pressure bleeding doesn't get the air out of the ABS unit according to the VW tech that came down.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: Solution found!! (RedRedOne)*

You can actually cycle the ABS pump using a VAG-COM.


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## psalm (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Solution found!! (reflexgti)*

Yeah, they tried that and it wasn't enough.


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## Caleb (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Racer_X)*

1. Yeah I am sure I got the calipers on the right way and on the correct side.
2. No I did not pre-bleed I had no idea. Damn I might have to try that. Problem is I am fighting about half a dozen other problems at the time and at this point spongy brakes is taking a back seat to the other things. But I will keep this in mind.
3.Yeah I have a new load sensing P-valve. My car had this same one from the factory on my car so I was good I just replaced it with a new one.
As to the guy who got his brakes fixed after a ABS system bleeding thats great hope you love your new brakes. I wish that was my problem but I don't have ABS. I mean 95% of the time I love it that way but if that would fix my problem at this point I would love to have ABS so I would be done with this sh!t.
I just found out tonight after looking under my car to chase down a massive oil leak (1 quart ever 150 miles







) that I believed was a oil pan gasket I have a leaky front main crank seal. While better than a rear crank seal it still sucks


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## 1.8t-2drjetta (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

if you are still having brake problems email me @ [email protected] i just had the same problem and it took me a few weeks to figure it out


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## vedubya (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (1.8t-2drjetta)*

My brakes suck also, I think I will go light my car on fire now.
Mike


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## RedRedOne (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (Caleb)*

I FINALLY GOT BRAKES!!!
The last time I went to bleed the system I was out of brake fluid so I bought 1 more quart (7 quarts total). 
Then I prayed, then I presure bleed just the rears at first just letting the pressure push fluid out of the system, then I assisted by slowly pressing the brake pedal (never going to the floor or allowing the pedal to return to the start position). 
I repeated the exact same on the left rears
The pedal got somewhat firm as it has always done, then I closed the screw & tapped the pedal a few times just to get it hard with the booster.
Then what I did differntly here was to remove the pressure bleeder and screw on the resevoir cap. I started the car and the pedal was firm not super firm but firm. I decided to go for a test drive and everything was fine. I have driven about 50 miles with a few hard brakes and all is well. 
I can't explain what worked (thats the scary thing) but what did help was the pressure bleeder, bleeding the car while on 4 stands, assisting the pressure bleeding by pressing the brake pedal, removing the the pressure bleeder and putting on the resevoir cap.
For this adventure, I have been through 7quart brake fluid, 2 rear whl cylndrs (another 2 returned defective), 2 MC (1 returned defective), 2 speed bleeders for front (the 2 for the rear where wrong size), purchased a pressure bleeder & vacuum bleeder and about 1000 hrs. Not to mention having a convertible down for 3 months during the summer... Enough ragging I'm going driving








P.S. this all started when I had my rear brakes serviced a year ago when drum put back old cotter pin must have been used, because I lost my rear wheel (drum attached) on Hwy at 70 mph...God was looking out!


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## vedubya (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (RedRedOne)*

quote:[HR][/HR]because I lost my rear wheel (drum attached) on Hwy at 70 mph...God was looking out![HR][/HR]​ So that has happened to another as well, now I don't feel like such a fool for having my wheel fall off, drum attached. 
well, I got my brakes working too for me my brake booster was bad, I had brakes that I would have to pump to come to a stop. I changed the booster (after going through lots of fluid bleeding, and 1 MC) and my brakes work great.
Mike
Also I emailed some guy that posted a few posts up saying to email him. his problem was that the rear bleeder valves are too low and air can be trapped above them. to take care of this remove the rear calipers (rear disk only) and position them so that the valves are at the highest point, so that all the air can be purged.
Mike


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## rocketjonesvw (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Ok my brake pedal has a lot of travel and is very spongy I need help bad!! (pipes)*

I just upgraded my front 288mm/rear256mm/and stainless lines. No pedal whatsoever. I pump the pedal and there is minimal pressure built. I've bled the lines twice now with pressure bleeder. I've deadlined going on 3 weeks.


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