# VRT cooling



## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

I posted a thread about this some time ago but was not actually around the car to help with any questions. Since I am now back in the US and summer is around the corner I will ask again and be able to provide feedback. Searched for normal engine operating temp and haven't had much luck but there is one other factor that is leading me to believe that something else could be wrong. Below are my findings thus far. I know these engines run hot but I want to be 100% sure that the thing is healthy. 

The issue only happens in the warmer temps, upper 70s and higher. Car will idle well, pull 18 ''Hg all day. Performed a compression test and only had 10 psi difference between two cylinders. All others were 5 psi difference or none at all. Have yet to do a leak down test but that is soon to be completed. 
When in stop and go traffic or when I get into boost after travelling for more than a hour straight, the engine temp gauge starts creeping into the 230+ range. The cooling system works as the *fan* comes on and the t-stat opens. The upper and lower rad hoses are not clogged. A coolant flush and change was administered in January. Upon inspecting the coolant in the reservoir last week, I noticed some small bits of brown mixed in. Checked the oil dipstick and no coolant was on it. So I of couse am wicked scared of a blown headgasket. But the leak down test should tell me a great deal. I will do another compression test on top of that to help cancel everything out. Should have the results up later this evening.
My question for VRT owners is what kind of coolant do you use? How often do you change it? What kind of oil do you use? Do you use an external oil cooler? And lastly, what are your usual engine operating temps? 
I know this is a lot but I don't want to fork out tons of loot for a possible engine rebuild if not necessary. Also, I want to make sure I can drive to H2O without having to be overly scared of how my car is operating. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

short answer - watch your oil temps. its probably from oil temps rising, not a short coming in the water cooling system.
external oil coolers are definitely beneficial on a VRT (especially with oil cooled turbos).


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (TBT-Syncro)*

I have searched that as well and some people are running anywhere between 260 and 280 and that is on tracked vehicles. 
An external oil cooler is something that I'm researching but at the moment I'm worried about the brown spots in the coolant res. The guy who has an air compressor is out of town so I may have to suck it up and get a shop to do my leak down test.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

I'll chime in. I've noticed the same problem and I have an external oil cooler, low temp thermostat and fan switch. To top it all off, it just has distilled water in the radiator, no antifreeze. After the oil temps cross 230 degrees the water temps come up into the 215-225 degree range. I have not had an issue with it overheating but it does run warm on the freeway after a while. I wish I had an answer or a way to keep it cool.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_ After the oil temps cross 230 degrees the water temps come up into the 215-225 degree range. 

the two systems should always be the same temp. if A gets hotter than B, it'll cause B to raise to match.
how big is your external cooler?
does it have a proper thermostatic plate?
oil or oil/water cooled turbo?
I've never had problems in the summer. but our hot summer days are cooler than yours.
i also run thermal reduction coatings on my turbo and downpipe, and i found those made a massive difference on underhood temps.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
the two systems should always be the same temp. if A gets hotter than B, it'll cause B to raise to match.
how big is your external cooler?
does it have a proper thermostatic plate?
oil or oil/water cooled turbo?
I've never had problems in the summer. but our hot summer days are cooler than yours.
i also run thermal reduction coatings on my turbo and downpipe, and i found those made a massive difference on underhood temps.

Agreed, both fluids will be similar in temp, once one warms up, the other one follows. The 16 row cooler that is on the car sits behind the grille in front of the condensor in the air flow and still has air pulled through it from the fans at a stop. The problem is that when it's 110 degrees out (like it is all summer), nothing can save it, so it doesn't get driven. The plate is a Eurosport thermostatic plate which seems to work well, temps reach 170 degrees and stay there when its cooler out, and the turbo is a water cooled turbo. AFRs are also in the high 14's to low 15's cruising on the freeway. Other than high ambient temps, I see nothing wrong with the hardware or software to cause it to overheat like it does so it just stays in the garage until its nice out again.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
the two systems should always be the same temp. if A gets hotter than B, it'll cause B to raise to match.
i also run thermal reduction coatings on my turbo and downpipe, and i found those made a massive difference on underhood temps.

I have to go to Sears and pick up some tools so I'll monitor both. Should be some stop and do traffic so I'll see what happens. Any ideas on the discolored coolant? Again, nothing on the dipstick so I'm kind of at a loss. I'll at least get the compression test done tonight.
As for the thermal coatings, I have seen the "wrap" as some companies call them. However, they are in the area of $250. Not sure if that is worth a couple degrees. 
Also, due to the SRI and OE fans colliding, a single fan was installed. I have a feeling that is not pulling enough CFM to help cool the car. Any ideas on that?


_Modified by Mr. Roloff at 3:29 PM 4-13-2010_


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Roloff* »_
Also, due to the SRI and OE fans colliding, a single fan was installed. I have a feeling that is not pulling enough CFM to help cool the car. Any ideas on that?



definitely a place of concern. i've seen VRs with twin aftermarket fans not be able to keep up to the engines cooling needs. if you HAVE to run a single fan, make sure its cfm is high enough, and that you have a proper fan shroud made for it (so the air is forced through the rad, rather than just goign around it)


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: VRT cooling (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
definitely a place of concern. i've seen VRs with twin aftermarket fans not be able to keep up to the engines cooling needs. if you HAVE to run a single fan, make sure its cfm is high enough, and that you have a proper fan shroud made for it (so the air is forced through the rad, rather than just goign around it)

I put a larger aftermarket fan in the place of the big OEM fan and left the smaller fan in place. I never have had a problem with water temp ever going past 195-200.
Mike


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (FaelinGL)*

Drove for a total of 1 and a half hours tonight. Oil temps got only as high as 238, engine temp stayed at half way mark. Did a couple 3rd gear pulls to see if the usual increase in temperature would happen but did not. I replaced the coolant reservoir cap to cancel out not having adequate pressure so who knows. Still checking the bottom end for any issues.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

my first mk3 vr6-T back in 2001 used to get up to 265* oil temp, in South Florida summer time at 85* nights, racing the car on the highway. this last (mk3 vr6-T) that I have for the last 4 years, oil runs around 235* on the same sammer 85* nights temp. now the difference in the set ups are.
*1st mk3 vr6-T* 2001 / * last mk3 vr6-T I have for 4years now*

A/C condencer in front of radiator / no A/C, so no A/C condencer in front
OEM radiator fans / flex-A-lite slim dual radiatorfans
oil cooler small size / oil cooler 70% bigger
oil cooler under car / oil cooler in front grill
fuel ratio crusing around 15.0 / fuel ratio cruising 13.8-14.6
full boost 15 psi fuel ratio 12.0 / full boost fuel ratio 11.4-11.7
cheap autoparts green color coolant / G12 VW coolant
turbo,exst manif, down pipe not wraped / turbo,exst manif,down pipe wraped
ATP 350HP intercooler core / pressision 750 HP intercooler core
OEM VW intake manifold / C-2 short run intake manifold
metal intercooler pipes not wraped / aluminum intercooler pipes not wraped

I think what will make the biggest difference will be the oil cooler now in front of radiator and in bigger size, flex-A-lite dual fans pulling way more air than OEM fans and I dont have the A/C condencer helping block the air flow any more, I am sure runing a bit rich will keep the motor a bit cooler, the exhaust manifold, turbo, down pipe wraped will help a lot in keeping under hood temperature way down. In my opinion I will say invest in a good size oil cooler and put it on the front grill, a good dual slim racing fans, wrap the turbo,exaust manifold and down pipe. the only problem is that your A/C condencer still will be blocking some of that air flow. but the vr6 motors run hot even without a turbo system on the hot summer. just make sure you are not having problem with timing (tune). 




_Modified by zwogti at 4:59 AM 4-14-2010_


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

Brown specs could be rust in the system..Ive had that several times from corrosion...p/o's putting tap water in the system for several years. believe me, it takes several system flushes to get it all out. My temps always stay around 180 on your average day. While driving in 90-100 degree weather I'm usually around 200-215 oil and 190-200 water (depending on speed). I use a 40/60 mix oem pink and distilled water. I do use a fairly large external oil cooler..which improves temps a LOT. I run a journal bearing turbo so that jumps oil temps, but the cooler keeps it in check. Does your aux coolant pump work? You also need a GOOD set of fans. I've installed 2x Spal 11" puller fans that suck a ton of air (close to 2500 cfm @ load). 1 fan brings water temps down in 38 seconds flat. I installed an aux pump (p/o ditched it) to come on w/ low speed fans and it dropped temps another 13 degrees compared to the fan alone.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (dasbeast3.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dasbeast3.0* »_Brown specs could be rust in the system
I installed an aux pump (p/o ditched it) to come on w/ low speed fans and it dropped temps another 13 degrees compared to the fan alone. 

Makes sense about the rust. Why remove the auxilliary pump?

@zwogti, I do not have AC in the car so no blockages. As for an oil cooler, the p/o mentioned the turbo being oil cooled however, I normally do not drive the car at excessive speeds on a daily basis (sees full boost a few times a week) so didn't think that a external oil cooler would be needed right away. I'm not sure what the current fans CFM rating is at but it is something that I'm also researching. 
Since everything cooling system wise seems to work correctly, my main concern so far has been why the engine temp suddenly jumps just after going into boost in one gear and after crusing. From what has been said, the oil temp directly effects the water temp, so it would seem that regardless of my driving habits an external oil cooler is necessary.
Thanks for all the info so far http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Mr. Roloff at 10:43 PM 4-13-2010_


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

I meant to make sure u have the aux pump installed / working. After boost you'll def see temps rise. Same thing with just cruisin along bro... before going f/i, you didn't have oil passing through a hot azz turbo. Think of it like this, the oil absorbs and removes heat from the turbo (it cools and lubricates), its constantly fed through the turbo and drains back to the pan... no matter if you're in boost or not. The turbo is hot as hell from the exhaust (boost= hotter)..With the oil carrying that extra amount of heat and only having factory provisions to expel that extra heat, your temps will rise. The factory system was not designed for a turbocharger and the extra heat is carries. You need to give it a way to properly dispose of the added heat IE: oil cooler. Even with minimal airflow the cooler will still act as a heatsink, cooling your temps dramatically. With higher oil temps, comes higher engine temps, with that comes higher water temps since it needs to again, combat the hotter running motor. It goes all over again with the h20 system.. not designed for the extra heat. Thats where the High output fans come in, to more quickly cool the water temps. Anything you do to one system needs to balance out with all systems. Instead of just getting a blind answer from someone, Now you will understand how it works. thumbup:


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (dasbeast3.0)*

Thanks. I already know new fans are necessary, as well as an oil cooler. If it wouldn't be such a pain to make new intercooler piping, I would switch to a stock intake manifold as the SRI is what promted the removal of the stock fans. Been monitoring my oil temps as well as engine temps and the oil gets to 236 after 20 minutes of freeway cruising at 70mph. Of course the car gets hotter much faster thanks to the warm weather but with a cold front coming through I don't see it being a big issue for a couple days.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

I stay ~190-195F oil and coolant 95% of the time. That's daily, highway, and drag, no track days.
-Eurosport external oil cooler
-Redline 10W30
-Low temp fan switch
-Either t-stat (currently running stock 80*C)
-80/20 distilled/green coolant plus a bottle of Redline water wetter
Don't think I've ever seen over 200F from either fluid. Runs too cold in the winter hence going back to the stock t-stat and oil cooler gets covered w/ a piece of cardboard. I've always read ~190-195 F is best for power http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif A cold motor absorbs too much heat and robs power. A hot motor detonates.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (slcturbo)*

Well I'm in the south and summer equals hot. Usually around 210-220 for oil after highway/stop and go traffic. Highway is mostly preferred due to more air getting to the bay.
So the external oil cooler is probably my next bet. Any idea for fans? I need them to be slimmer than stock and pull more CFMs.


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## SlowVRT (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

Can't run slim fans? or Are you already running 1 slim fan?


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: VRT cooling (SlowVRT)*

Might be slightly off topic, but have you guys seen this:
http://www.ecstuning.com/Volks...92547/
100% drop in replacement


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (son of planrforrobert)*

I talked to a radiator company in LA about custom making one for me to help with cooling on the freeway. I was told to put streamers on the front end, hood, cowl and fenders and have someone video it next to me to see where the air was going at speed. He told me he told me that the largest radiator in the world would not help the fact that air might not be going through the radiator at higher speeds especially considering the fact that there is an oil cooler, intercooler and condensor right in front of all of it. Aluminum is nice but I am not sure that its worth the coin. I've thought about making a hood stand off kit for use in the summer that sets the back of the hood up a few inches to move air from below out the top via the vacuum that forms at the bottom of the windshield. Haven't gotten around to that one yet.


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*

Couldn't you just use longer bolts and some washers on the hood to accomplish what a standoff does?


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (son of planrforrobert)*


_Quote, originally posted by *son of planrforrobert* »_Couldn't you just use longer bolts and some washers on the hood to accomplish what a standoff does?

You could but I want to come up with something aesthetically pleasing as well as you will see it. I was thinking of spending some time on the lathe and making a block to put between the hood and the hinge.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
You could but I want to come up with something aesthetically pleasing as well as you will see it. I was thinking of spending some time on the lathe and making a block to put between the hood and the hinge.

... i would so love one of those... are they called hood stand offs or risers?

something like this?










_Modified by Boost112 at 5:06 PM 4-21-2010_


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boost112* »_
... i would so love one of those... they are called hood stand offs?

Yeah, they would set the hood up an inch or so in the back, install the blocks a remove the hood gasket on the lower cowl and voila, top of the bay ventilation, perfect for removing heat from hot turbo setups


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
Yeah, they would set the hood up an inch or so in the back, install the blocks a remove the hood gasket on the lower cowl and voila, top of the bay ventilation, perfect for removing heat from hot turbo setups









...think its a great idea...and not only for boost but for any setup....


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*

I'm going to start playing with it tonight, figure out what height works best and maybe mill up a set. Instead of having one for each bolt, it will be just a aluminum block that fits over the top of the hinge, better weight distribution. It's going to take some work as the hood hinges bolt to the side of the hood but some cleaver bracket work and it should play well


_Modified by KubotaPowered at 3:17 PM 4-21-2010_


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_I'm going to start playing with it tonight, figure out what height works best and maybe mill up a set. Instead of having one for each bolt, it will be just a aluminum block that fits over the top of the hinge, better weight distribution. It's going to take some work as the hood hinges bolt to the side of the hood but some cleaver bracket work and it should play well

_Modified by KubotaPowered at 3:17 PM 4-21-2010_

i think one inch would be sufficient... especially if you remove the rubber strip at the rain tray...


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*

Finally found something to get me started in terms of oil coolers. 
Thanks Kevin for putting this idea firmly into my head. MOCAL of course makes oil coolers and they have a VR6 kit. Comes with hoses and fittings. I'm thinking a 10 row should be sufficient. Also, the site is saying that it could mount to the blanking plate and if that is so then I could just replace that as it seems one of the holes for a oil pan bolt is stripped. 

As for fans. I'm having a little bit of trouble picking. Are there any companies that make kits or is this a peice together type thing?


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Roloff* »_Finally found something to get me started in terms of oil coolers. 
Thanks Kevin for putting this idea firmly into my head. MOCAL of course makes oil coolers and they have a VR6 kit. Comes with hoses and fittings. I'm thinking a 10 row should be sufficient. Also, the site is saying that it could mount to the blanking plate and if that is so then I could just replace that as it seems one of the holes for a oil pan bolt is stripped. 

As for fans. I'm having a little bit of trouble picking. Are there any companies that make kits or is this a peice together type thing?


...i am going to be using two 12" fans that i picked up from frozenboost.com... they are no name brand fan.... but people have been having success with them and they are $30 a piece. also the stock vr6 fans together are good for i believe 2500 cfm.... these fans are rated at 1800 cfm each so together 3600 cfm...they can be setup to push or pull and are pretty slim... running each fan off a switch so i can turn them on/off whenever i want.... and if you do not want to go that route you can always pick up an adjustable thermostat and wire them up to that...


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*

I know I'm needing pullers so I'll check out that website. Fluidyne and SPAL are all I've looked at so far.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boost112* »_

...i am going to be using two 12" fans that i picked up from frozenboost.com... they are no name brand fan.... but people have been having success with them and they are $30 a piece. also the stock vr6 fans together are good for i believe 2500 cfm.... these fans are rated at 1800 cfm each so together 3600 cfm...they can be setup to push or pull and are pretty slim... running each fan off a switch so i can turn them on/off whenever i want.... and if you do not want to go that route you can always pick up an adjustable thermostat and wire them up to that...

i doubt those cfm ratings for that price. i had 2 NO NAME 12 inch fans on my car and it overheated. I bought 2 10 inch quality fans and now i have no issues


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

What brand fans you have? Just curious what you consider 'quality'?


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Roloff* »_Finally found something to get me started in terms of oil coolers. 
Thanks Kevin for putting this idea firmly into my head. MOCAL of course makes oil coolers and they have a VR6 kit. Comes with hoses and fittings. I'm thinking a 10 row should be sufficient. Also, the site is saying that it could mount to the blanking plate and if that is so then I could just replace that as it seems one of the holes for a oil pan bolt is stripped. 


I'll be ordering that mocal plate/lines/fittings very soon if you want to jump in together on an order. It wont be a prefab kit, I like putting these things together and will definitely give you a hand with yours. We'll talk at the next fq meet and work the details.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (Yareka)*

Sounds good.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (.therealvrt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.therealvrt* »_
i doubt those cfm ratings for that price. i had 2 NO NAME 12 inch fans on my car and it overheated. I bought 2 10 inch quality fans and now i have no issues



....i have asked people that have bought the same fans, how they have held up.... so far no real complaints... and that's Arizona temps and south Florida temps... over a years time being daily driven.... if they don't work out to what i expected then i only lost 70 bucks and some of my time... no biggie....


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boost112* »_
also the stock vr6 fans together are good for i believe 2500 cfm.... 

I recall when researching slimfans that no one really knew what the stock fans moved. And there was always a mix of people running 1 12" and having no problems and some needing 2 -12s
I currently have 1 12" Im going to see how it holds up, I have another fan but have interference with some things if I want to run it (rad is moved back about an inch to make for my IC core not sticking out like buck teeth


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (pubahs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pubahs* »_
I recall when researching slimfans that no one really knew what the stock fans moved. And there was always a mix of people running 1 12" and having no problems and some needing 2 -12s
I currently have 1 12" Im going to see how it holds up, I have another fan but have interference with some things if I want to run it (rad is moved back about an inch to make for my IC core not sticking out like buck teeth 

...if it helps any... this is the post that got me interested in going aftermarket...lots of info...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4556012


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boost112* »_
...if it helps any... this is the post that got me interested in going aftermarket...lots of info...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4556012

Think of the load you could reduce by running slim fans, OEM fans draw close to 40 amps.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KubotaPowered* »_
Think of the load you could reduce by running slim fans, OEM fans draw close to 40 amps.

tell me about it....the fans i have will draw 6 amps a piece... 
...and i still want a pair of those hood risers...ftmfw....


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (KubotaPowered)*

Those look pretty good and since I don't have AC there won't be too much of a fitment issue. I need to get out to the car and measure some things or at least try.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

I'm very close to ordering fans and it looks like the lower amp 11" spal fans can be had for just a bit more than the frozenboost fans. 
I'd be running 2 of these w/ a custom shroud, this one pulls 6.8amps and pushes 810cfm
http://www.the-fan-man.com/sho...th=33
The big question is should I go for the 1/2" thicker unit that pulls 8.3ams and pushes 970cfm, its $37 more.
http://www.the-fan-man.com/sho...th=33
If I had the space(schimmel sri in a rado), I'd really really like to run these but 4.5" deep would probably be cutting it too close. This setup pushes 2780cfm and includes the shroud that could be custom cut.
http://www.the-fan-man.com/sho...th=33


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (Yareka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yareka* »_I'm very close to ordering fans and it looks like the lower amp 11" spal fans can be had for just a bit more than the frozenboost fans. 
I'd be running 2 of these w/ a custom shroud, this one pulls 6.8amps and pushes 810cfm
http://www.the-fan-man.com/sho...th=33
The big question is should I go for the 1/2" thicker unit that pulls 8.3ams and pushes 970cfm, its $37 more.
http://www.the-fan-man.com/sho...th=33
If I had the space(schimmel sri in a rado), I'd really really like to run these but 4.5" deep would probably be cutting it too close. This setup pushes 2780cfm and includes the shroud that could be custom cut.
http://www.the-fan-man.com/sho...th=33


i really think that you might want to shoot for over 2500cfm... with which ever combination you choose... and i would use a puller setup compared to a pusher setup.... the stock fans are a pull setup...


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: VRT cooling (Boost112)*

Shooting for as much cfm as I can in a small package for sure since I'll have an oil cooler core and awic core(both will have small 7" pusher fans) in front of the rad. And all of the fans I mentioned above are pullers, when I mentioned "pushing" I just meant what cfm they were rated for http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

*Re: VRT cooling (Yareka)*

Remember how I was talking about that bolt for the oil pan rubbing my serp belt. Well, it took off part of a rib on the belt. Heard a pop before leaving for work and shazaam. 
Yet another thing so simple but still have zero time for. Either way, I'll see you guys this Wednesday and we'll further discuss this oil cooler and fan topic.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: VRT cooling (Mr. Roloff)*

i think the stock fan has the heat sink for low speed
otherwise where would all that extra power go, through heat in the larger blades?
@ 40 amps, the stock fans would have to keep up with aftermarkets totaling 20 amps, i would think


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

92 degrees, 1 and half hour drive turned into 3 hours. That is the straw that broke camels back. Taking measurements for the fans and getting the oil cooler ordered. Will keep you all posted. Oil temps went to 250, water near 230 while travelling at 70 mph. Not fun.


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## Jow wow (Oct 15, 2008)

im also needing to order some slim fans. my stock fans almost caused my car to catch on fire!! anyway i remember being able to search on the old vortex.. but now ? any way, can some body please explain what to do with each of the wires on the harness side of the fan plug when switching to slim fans?

also,

When mounting slim fans, is there a certain way to make/ mount a shroud for them?


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## Jow wow (Oct 15, 2008)

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1004&osCsid=038c2709d4974cf68e074fb1198d0b09

would it be okay to mount them directly to the fins like it says?



also,

WTF is this new vortex? i want old one back!


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## Jow wow (Oct 15, 2008)

Can we also see some pics of slim fans installed and maybe how you wired it too. 

Thanks


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

SPAL has fans that come with a shroud already. Just aren't vehicle specific. Now, stupid question on my end. I need pullers, not pushers? I'm 98% I need pullers but the other 2% is causing some serious second guessing.


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## Jow wow (Oct 15, 2008)

yes we need pullers... the fans i just bought and gave link to earlier have blades that can be reversed so they can push or pull as you see fit.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

Do pullers since they are more efficient and allow you to add oil coolers or other cores on the front. Only reason to do pushers is if you need a lotttt of room for a manifold or just want a really clean bay. I ended up picking up the spal dual 11" pullers http://www.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/67964/30102052 and now shopping for the Spal PWM Progressive fan controller to get these puppies going along with an oil cooler install at the same time. should be fun


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## Jow wow (Oct 15, 2008)

how you planning on mounting and wiring that bad boy?


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

Yes. The SPAL dual 11" peaked my interest today. Actually did some measuring and should be a good fit even with the SRI. Mocal makes fans as well and are dual type, with a slim motor and all. Just didn't list how much CFM it pulls. Either way, picked out my oil cooler kit and will go with the 10 row, 115 core version. Should fit nicely between the grill and radiator and will be placed in the upper right hand corner so as to get tons of fresh air.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

SPAL sells the PWM on their website for $130. May just go with the temp sensor and harness setup.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

For two fans you need the PWM(which progressively controls one of the fans) and another relay which turns the other fan on when the pwm hits the high temp. The spals I picked up flow 2700cfm which is better than oem and pulls half the amps, and gives room for the schimmel. I looked at those mocal kits you mentioned, looks decent for the money as long as you get the thermostatic plate. I'd recommend getting the ones with the pushlock hoses, much easier to deal with and better bending radius for going under the rad support.

Instead of adding the mocal core, this is the route I'm taking. Long mfg. makes the cores for the b&m supercooler for quite a bit cheaper. Follow this link and check out the 8.5x11 medium sized cooler versus the 10row you are looking at. Half the cost and more surface area....http://www.bakerprecision.com/trucool.htm


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

Right. One problem with this. Location, location, location. I don't know where I can put something with those dimensions and get enough air to it at the same time. I have the numbers for all the places I look to order from and will call them during my lunch break. Hopefully these dudes have some real know-how and aren't looking to just sell me their product. No matter what, I will be getting a thermo for it.

As for the fans, the also have a thermo setup that works with your temp sensor so as to kick the fans on at a pre determined temperature. I think this would work best as I have plenty of air getting to the engine on the highway. If temps get too crazy then the fans will turn on due to what the sensor is reading and provide extra cooling. That is not typical of how a fan works but they operate off a sensor which turns the fans on and off given the engine temps. I'm looking for the most basic setup possible so I can diagnose any future issues. Anything relay operated I'm pretty good with.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

Spoke to a guy named Tim who was pretty clear about the FAN PWM and said its just a PITA. So I went with the 185 thermo and that should be good. Ordered just a 10 row with thermo for the oil side. Oil temps have gotten only as high as 250, which isn't all that bad but if I could maintain 220-230 I'd be very happy. Should have everything in at the end of this week. Will post updates.


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## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

Bringing this thread back from the cellar:

in loafing around town today, not even boosting, I saw my water temp edge towards 230. Oil was great at barely 210. When I got where I was going, I noticed the highest speed fan kicked on and my temps went back to their happy place.

The biggest factor I noticed yesterday though was the A/C on vs. off. I drove around later (hotter) with it off and my water temp didn't budge.

I'm thinking either that A/C REALLY puts a load on the engine, or what I think is more likely is that with the 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag up front, the radiator doesn't deal with the condenser's heating up well enough. With the FMIC and oil cooler in front of things, it's all fighting to get air.

Soooo, I'd like to hear from more people with higher CFM fan setups. Specifically I want them to work "as stock" so they have 3 speeds, or at least don't involve hacking everything up wiring wise.

Hey John (KubotaPowered): How are those standoffs coming along?


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

I have a Corrado with Schimmel intake too and I run 11" and 9" suckers, mounted with these brackets - http://www.dgautotech.com/dgauto/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=76

Plenty of space. The 9" sits under the throttle nicely, not enough room for two 11s unfortunately but I find the 11 and 9 is more than enough to keep the motor cool.

Find fans made by "GeneralCAB" if you can. They are identical to SPAL dimensionally, but far superior quality wise. I got through 2 SPAL fans and both failed completely shortly after noisy bearing problems.

I would also get the 11" "Heavy duty" flavour, which adds an inch to the motor depth, but you get a lot more grunt in return.

All of the VW fan control has been binned, including the eletric water pump. I simply switch the fans on at 93 deg C (I don't run Motronic) and it never, ever gets too hot. Not even in summer.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

Jettin2Class said:


> Hey John (KubotaPowered): How are those standoffs coming along?


x2


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Jettin2Class said:


> The biggest factor I noticed yesterday though was the A/C on vs. off. I drove around later (hotter) with it off and my water temp didn't budge.


have you pulled the belt off the AC to verify that the AC pump is functioning properly?


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## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

TBT-Syncro said:


> have you pulled the belt off the AC to verify that the AC pump is functioning properly?


 As in to make sure it's not binding or making the engine work too hard? I have redone the whole A/C system so it's a ~newer compressor. The temp will stay ok for quite awhile but then it seems to build and build. Once it hit ~230 (water) the highest speed of the fan kicked on and knocked it back down to half way on the gauge. So...to me it seems like all the systems are working, just having to work a bit harder than they would if I hadn't gone turbo and put an intercooler up there and such. 

I still would like some fans that really move air all the time though so the thing never gets that hot. And preferably three speed so they can be wired up just as stock.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

Well, I just got the oil cooler done and drove it under the conditions that would cause my oil and water temps to become high. 

Oil temps never reached 230 after cruising and a couple 3rd gear pulls. Water temps did pass the mid-way mark but not any higher when static and dropped when cruising so there enters the fan issue. 

Dual 11" did not fit and as Jettin stated I can mis match the fans to achieve my cooling goals. 

For now I know that at least half of my plan worked. If I keep the oil cool the water temps will follow. Just with a single, un-shrouded fan, temps get all weird and I hate seeing that needle pointing to the right. 

Oil cooler set up is the Mocal 10 row, 115 series core with thermo. Mounted just behind the grill on the drivers side.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Jettin2Class said:


> As in to make sure it's not binding or making the engine work too hard? I have redone the whole A/C system so it's a ~newer compressor. The temp will stay ok for quite awhile but then it seems to build and build. Once it hit ~230 (water) the highest speed of the fan kicked on and knocked it back down to half way on the gauge. So...to me it seems like all the systems are working, just having to work a bit harder than they would if I hadn't gone turbo and put an intercooler up there and such.
> 
> I still would like some fans that really move air all the time though so the thing never gets that hot. And preferably three speed so they can be wired up just as stock.


 I forget, which fan switch are you running? With the low temp switch, those fans should almost be at full power all the time when up to temperature.


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## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

KubotaPowered said:


> I forget, which fan switch are you running? With the low temp switch, those fans should almost be at full power all the time when up to temperature.


 Normal. Today clinched it. I'm going back banghead to the low temp switch. When those fans run on high speed my coolant temp doesn't budge and my oil is ~210 degrees.


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## Yareka (Mar 5, 2002)

Mr. Roloff said:


> Dual 11" did not fit and as Jettin stated I can mis match the fans to achieve my cooling goals.


 
Finally able to get the dual 11" spal fans in today. Its really tight and I had to trim away all the extra shroud material but they do fit in a rado with a schimmel so they will definitely fit your mk3


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## turboit (Oct 4, 2001)

*fan wiring*

To those looking to wire up your Slim line fans... here's What I found after searching. www.mk2vr6.com username is Monty VR6 












> In the diagram, the 2 relays labled "53 are just ordinary #53 relays that VW has been using for years, but any standard automotive relay works for these two, I just has too many laying around not to use them. The middle relay is a relay that has contacts 85, 86, 30, 87, and 87a, And when the relay is activated via 85 and 86, the connection goes from 30 to 87, from 30 to 87a. Some relays have 2 "87"s, these will not work for this. I built it all into a small 2.5" x 2.5" x 6" Radio shack project box that has 3 wire groups coming out of it for the battery, the fans, and the fan switch, it looks pretty clean, and as you can see by the diagram, it has indicator LEDs to inform you of fan swith input/operation, One LED for "Low", and 2 for "High".


doesn't say whether or not the relays are SPST or SPDT? I'm assuming SPST? what gauge wire would you guys use?


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

turboit said:


> doesn't say whether or not the relays are SPST or SPDT? I'm assuming SPST? what gauge wire would you guys use?


Those relays are SPST, except for the middle one. Not sure what that one is. At less then 25 amps, you should be fine with 18 gauge or larger wire.

Mike


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## .T.o.n.y. (Apr 3, 2003)

Im running the BahnBrenner 19 row thermostatic oil cooler kit with stainless hoses along with low temp thermostat & temp switch. I have the cooler side mounted under the battery so that it gets direct air flow threw the opening in the lower bumper. I also have a Euro core support with factory fans & Samco hoses ( though they dont do anything about cooling ) I run 50/50 water G12 mix and my oil temps never exceed 200 degrees unless im beating the snot out of my VRT :screwy: Coolant temps stay 190-195 so i dont know if im just lucky or what? I keep reading how everyone has cooling problems with their VRTs but i never have since i built the motor?


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

Well my turbo is oil cooled only so a oil cooler was a necessity. The fan I have is unshrouded so its pulling air but the air is just going wherever. And speaking of oil, which I'm beginning to hate so much, my oil return line is leaking. YAYYYYYYYYYY. I guess when you daily a VRT things will be a breakin'.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

turboit said:


> To those looking to wire up your Slim line fans... here's What I found after searching. www.mk2vr6.com username is Monty VR6
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To agree with Mike, the relays are SPST BUT, I would use a #12 or #10 wire, the larger the better with DC motors, AC too for that matter. Less chance of the motor overheating or blowing fuses because the wire is too small.


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## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

KubotaPowered said:


> To agree with Mike, the relays are SPST BUT, I would use a #12 or #10 wire, the larger the better with DC motors, AC too for that matter. Less chance of the motor overheating or blowing fuses because the wire is too small.


By all means, use the absolute biggest you can afford and run reasonably easily. 10 gauge wire is miserable to try and solder, so you will have to crimp it and run wedge connectors.


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## .T.o.n.y. (Apr 3, 2003)

Here is how i have my cooler mounted.


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## Mr. Roloff (May 15, 2007)

Wow That core is massive. Mine is only a 10 row and gets the job done just fine.


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## .T.o.n.y. (Apr 3, 2003)

Yeah its the 19 row SS Thermostatic kit from BahnBrenner, i have NO heat issues with my set up even in the AZ desert.


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