# Got engineering?



## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

This isnt a VW or a german car but it made me do this












unknown said:


> Every now and then I come across something truly impressive. This represents some of the work of Extreme Tuners in Athens, Greece, and the name is no joke. Pushing limits requires funds and skill, and these guys have both. All they do is build and tune engines. The entire lengthy discussion can be found here (http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyno-tuning-results/447351-highest-hp-4g63-engine-2007-a.html), but unless you feel like reading quite a few pages of posts, I'll post the highlights here.
> 
> FWIW, this is some of what they've done:
> 
> ...


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## Stephan Schmidt (Dec 18, 2002)

Wow! Very Impressive!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Thanks
*Spyros* Panopoulos
Extreme Tuners 

Would expect nothing less from Spyros. When he made 600hp from an 8V back in 2003? Everyone (myself included) laughed and called him bs. 
http://www.jwelty.com/jwelty3/spyros-mk2turbo.htm
When he showed me what he was doing with his 16V build 2 years later , I sat back , gave the guys props and never questioned his methods. 
:thumbup: for a fabulous mechanical engineer and a guy who has proven many wrong time and time again.:thumbup:


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

wow...


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## BoostedDubVR6T420 (Dec 4, 2009)

That is probably the most stout motor I have ever seen. Crazy impressive.:thumbup:


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## Bacon11 (Jan 20, 2010)

Got awesome?

Cool stuff there. :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

titanium finally becoming more present..

hello $45k motor lol

sickness..so delicious


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

Vegeta Gti said:


> titanium finally becoming more present..
> 
> hello $45k motor lol
> 
> sickness..so delicious


Found this on one of the forums, not sure if its 100% accurate

*Since some of you are wondering what this costs, I know the Ti rods are around $3250 each, and the Ti crank is around $31,000. They are now working on a CNC billet cylinder head and carbon fiber turbine housings. These guys have good connections with F1 parts fabricators.*


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Vegeta Gti said:


> titanium finally becoming more present..
> 
> hello $45k motor lol
> 
> sickness..so delicious


It maybe more expensive than that.... I mean think of the billet block alone 
Most of the other materials etc. is like F1 technology... especially looking at the size of that piston..Beryl. Titanium. Alum MMC.....$$$$$$$$$

Awesome craziness.... now I wonder what it takes to make that 4cyl spin to 20k


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## bdeitemeyer (Apr 8, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> titanium finally becoming more present..
> 
> hello $45k motor lol
> 
> sickness..so delicious


I would guesstimate that that motor is WELL above $45k, you're looking at a limitless budget build...6 figures easy.


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

Can you really call that an EVO motor any more?


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Wish I had the CAD files.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

vergessen wir es said:


> Wish I had the CAD files.


...and what would you do with them?


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

I would like more insight into how to design a billet block and head, material selection and tolerances, which the files would give me. The goal is to fabricate a better head for the 12v.
And I recognize the 12v has its peculiarities so it's no small job to translate what works on a 4 cylinder to a 15 degree vr, but I would rather have at least a starting point.
Once you have the right design it's just chips.


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## kuma85 (Oct 22, 2007)

holy crip its a Crapple.


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## SirRipo (Mar 27, 2009)

ohhh maiii gawwwwwwwwwd.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

A billet VR6 block would be money! 

Awesome find :beer::beer:


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

I think a new re-engineered vr6 head would be better than a vr6 block.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

CDJetta said:


> I think a new re-engineered vr6 head would be better than a vr6 block.


x2


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

That is enough injector to fuel the space shuttle..
Might as well take the restriction out of the way in put a hose directly into the cylinders!
Pure pron there..


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## alloutofdonuts (Nov 3, 2005)

leebro61 said:


> ...and what would you do with them?


Well I for one would print them out on some delicious flavored paper and eat it. Hopefully some knowledge and or awesome-ness would come from it. More than likely it would just be uncomfortable poop tho. :thumbdown:


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## Bacon11 (Jan 20, 2010)

alloutofdonuts said:


> Well I for one would print them out on some delicious flavored paper and eat it. Hopefully some knowledge and or awesome-ness would come from it. More than likely it would just be uncomfortable poop tho. :thumbdown:


lololol


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## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Titanium is not easy to work with and machine. I'd like to see the machining equipment to work on the Ti crank, cam shaft, and other bits and pieces. Very impressive to say the least. :thumbup:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

That's ****ing insane...have...no...words :what:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Soon as I saw the first pic, and the tone of the original writer of this I knew it was that bastard. 

Issam you forget his build, though he didnt continue it much? He was talking a 1000hp 16v at 10k rpm. Everyone doubted him then too.

He was talking about nikasil plated cylinders, custom rods, pistons etc. I remember the engine has a huge ****ing turbo too.

Found the thread, have fun ladies

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3104518-Project-VW-Golf-mk2-16v-1000-hp-(Greece)

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

CDJetta said:


> I think a new re-engineered vr6 head would be better than a vr6 block.


true, but i would love for my engine to be alot lighter than it is.


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## SpoonGTI (Dec 3, 2002)

holy mother of god...


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

Titanium crank? Berrylium pistons? 

Does it have slices of space shuttle heat shield tiles bolted onto the pistons as well? 

Sorry, but there's a fair bit of stuff listed there which doesn't exist. Titanium for example would make a terrible crankshaft, at any cost. Definitely some beautiful parts there, but some of the details may have gotten a little lost in translation.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

The parts list is any car enthusiasts dream but...

Couldn't this be achieved with the right block choice (if you had a choice of ANY 4cyl.?) for a fraction of whats claimed. I too have followed all of his previous AMAZING builds.....that i never seen finished.IIRC, he posted a bunch of uber parts, a half done engine and a dyno plot and then drop of the face of the earth for 5 yrs. 

And i'm no metalogist but as someone mentioned above, wouldn't the tooling to make a Ti crank be super heavy duty. Casting a Ti crank....easy 6 figure engine.........for what? 


Someone please show me a vid...complete engine....opcorn:


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

Those top fuel guys pushing thousands of HP.... what do they make their engines out of?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

CDJetta said:


> Those top fuel guys pushing thousands of HP.... what do they make their engines out of?


Nothing like this...Not even F1 uses a CNC Billet block and they rev out to 15+k easy.


Here's his last unfinished project

















After doing some searching, i found out that beryllium is the rarest metal in the universe let alone earth. NASA uses teaspoons of this stuff and he has it in an engine...YEEAAAA

I never call anybody out on their project...except this guy. He was exposed in the mk2 forum when he posted his 1000hp 8v.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> And i'm no metalogist but as someone mentioned above, wouldn't the tooling to make a Ti crank be super heavy duty. Casting a Ti crank....easy 6 figure engine.........for what?



:sly: This is the real deal, many high tech racing parts have Ti and copper-beryl, Al MMC...
The only other super alloy that wasen't mentioned that I know of that is used highly in F1 etc is magnesium, I had access to eng. tech journals for racing, some of this **** is real.
Ti would surely be easier to machine than Al MMC and Carbon ceramic or Carbon Carbon

Keep in mind many of these materials are alloys (I'm sure you know that), its not like those pistons are 100% beryl


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

even so......does that look like an F1 engine? F1 builds to win F1 racing. Would you build something like this just to say you have it? 

Eh, i dunno....In for the finished engine....opcorn:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

bery is also pretty toxic. Heavy metal poinsoning anyone?


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> :sly: This is the real deal, many high tech racing parts have Ti and copper-beryl, Al MMC...
> The only other super alloy that wasen't mentioned that I know of that is used highly in F1 etc is magnesium, I had access to eng. tech journals for racing, some of this **** is real.
> Ti would surely be easier to machine than Al MMC and Carbon ceramic or Carbon Carbon
> 
> Keep in mind many of these materials are alloys (I'm sure you know that), its not like those pistons are 100% beryl


That's all fine, but it's not a titanium crank. Titanium galls like crazy when run against other metals- even the rods need to be coated to protect the thrusts... You certainly aren't going to run a rod on a ground titanium journal. then there's the fact that while it has a high strength to weight ratio, it does require quite a large volume of material. Look at the Ti rods. Where do you add that sort of volume to a crankshaft, which is weakest in the small area where the rod journal and main journal overlap? Simple answer- you don't, can't, and never will. Even if you could, the equivalent steel crank will still be stiffer. 

Making a crank out of titanium would be like wearing your socks on your wang and your boxers on your feet. Even in F1, where the budget is ~unlimited, and titanium is legal- it's not done. 

Good racing cranks are billet alloy steel, usually something similar to 4340 or EN40B etc, if not actually 4340. The highest tier's of racing will use a steel that's been remelted, or double remelted for purity, x rayed, and certified- fully traceable. $$$$ even though it's just "regular old steel"- A double remelt steel only yields about 25-30% of the original quantity they start with, so it gets $$. 

FWIW, top fuel engines do typically use billet blocks and heads with no water jackets. Oh ya, and those use steel cranks too  

MMC is an interesting topic, unfortunately- since they banned it in F1, nobody really has the $$$ to do the trial and error to get it to work for automotive use. There are a few companies out there making MMC rods, but it's very, very slim pickins. 

Oddly enough, with the high speed era of F1 coming to an end and higher cylinder pressures / lower speeds coming back most likely- you might well be seeing steel pistons shortly. Again, the stiffness of steel becomes valuable. 

eace:


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## 20thgti2376 (Aug 30, 2008)

Straight up sick


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

This is a sick build the head he is using appears to have come from these guys. http://theoldone.com They have a phenomenal facility and are in my Opinion the Best in the JDM market.
~Jarod.


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## goodbye (Jan 2, 2006)

Endyn? I doubt it. They are an internet fluff company, haven't heard of them since 2001 when they were supposed setting the turbo Mitsubishi world on fire, that never happened. There's a million companies that can do custom made heads these days.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I've went through the entire thread and how come when somebody points out the BS, he doesn't wanna talk about it. 

I still can't understand why. Generall a company builds a product(s) around the consumer & the market. Why build something that you're lucky to sell 1 a year. (billet block, custom $23,000 crank,...) And again, why can't those HP numbers be achieved with less money. Companys say they've work with them on their project when all they bought were little cosmetic stuff from various vendors on that forum. In all those pages, no one bought a single thing from Syros' shop. 


A question to the Vortex vendors. Would you build an engine like this, using the parts above, if the budget was unlimited? I know a few of the Evo & DSM drag guys here on the island and almost all of them are familiar with that thread and they've all said it was BS. The beastly R36T is nearing (if not there) 1000whp and i'm sure his budget is no where near Spyros. 

A great dream but reality is that i highly doubt those parts are being used on the engine he's using. 

All that being said, those turbo's are a work of art! $11,000 for a turbo.....yyyeeeeeeaaaa


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

I don't understand your confusion:what: 
You're comparing a 3.6L [email protected] to a motor being built 2.0-2.4L 4cyl @ 2000hp for the billet block which will rev out past 10k... many of his motors claimed to hit 11-13k. 
This setup is for a special customer who is looking for that power goal, its not like he's building something crazy on his own budget than looking for a customer. 
Is your confusion not understanding why he uses such crazy claimed materials? 
Why do you feel this is all B.S.? 
Regardless of what you think about him.... he has built 1500+hp evo's etc.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

CDJetta said:


> Those top fuel guys pushing thousands of HP.... what do they make their engines out of?


 Billet Alum blocks and heads. But I don't think they can use Ti or Be


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I've went through the entire thread and how come when somebody points out the BS, he doesn't wanna talk about it.
> 
> I still can't understand why. Generall a company builds a product(s) around the consumer & the market. Why build something that you're lucky to sell 1 a year. (billet block, custom $23,000 crank,...) And again, why can't those HP numbers be achieved with less money. Companys say they've work with them on their project when all they bought were little cosmetic stuff from various vendors on that forum. In all those pages, no one bought a single thing from Syros' shop.
> 
> ...


 I don’t think it’s BS, he probably works on command for people with a lot of money. That being said, why he’s on that forum, probably because he’s trying to sell some of this stuff to other people, broadening the market, maybe he’s short on new high $ commands… Don’t forget that Greece is in a deep economic recession at the moment.


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

there are no titanium crankshaft:screwy:


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

version1.655 said:


> there are no titanium crankshaft:screwy:


 say's who... 
If you have the money you can get it build


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

pimS said:


> say's who...
> If you have the money you can get it build


 you show me someone who is running a titanium crank. Has nothing to do with the cost, it has too do with metallurgy. F1 series & NASCAR has unlimited funds, do they use a titanium crank? *NO*They use forged steel. I think they know better than anyone what materials would work the best:sly::sly: 
Why you might ask>>The problem with a titanium crank, is that titanium is very soft. The bearings would wear into the journal very quickly. I know you are thinking that it can't be soft if it is so strong, but think about glass vs. lexan. Glass is easy to break, but hard to scratch. Lexan can take a bullet with out breaking, but your fingernail can almost scratch the stuff. Sam idea with titanium. It works great for rods, where they stretch and compress, but you rub a bearing across them and scratch it up bad. It is bendable, but virtually always springs back to it's original form, not accepting bending very easily. This springy bendability is why it isn't used as a crankshaft material. What good would a "wobbly" crank be? Sure it wouldn't break easily, but it wouldn't be transmitting all of the power to the transmission if some of it were lost in the flexing of the crank.


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

^ :thumbup: 

It also galls like crazy, you would be not very smart to try to run titanium against titanium, even with coating(s). 

Like I said as well, there's just no room between the mains and the rod throw, in the highest stressed portion of a crank- to add ~double the material. 

Ti has excellent strength to weight, not excellent strength.


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

enginenerd said:


> ^ :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Ti has excellent strength to weight, not excellent strength.


 ^^Exactly^^ and thats why you are supposed to use beryllium copper valve seats when using titanium valves, because they are softer than conventional seats. a softer seat material has more of a dampening effect when the valve closes to reduce the risk of valve bounce/breakage when the valve closes.


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

how about that turbo...eh :laugh:


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

IDC what the dyno says, I want drag numbers obviously since that what this build was for. They claim their best was [email protected] with a 1400hp+car:thumbdown: 
buscher ran a best [email protected],full interior 700hp:screwy:


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

version1.655 said:


> IDC what the dyno says, I want drag numbers obviously since that what this build was for. They claim their best was [email protected] with a 1400hp+car:thumbdown:
> buscher ran a best [email protected],full interior 700hp:screwy:


 It has already been stated in the EvoM thread that there is no comparison to a track in greece than in US...... Also I think some of your numbers are scewed based on whp or bhp, and driver skill, experience etc.... only because that was the best time doesn't mean the car can't go faster  

The largest attribute of his thread is the comparison of cams, turbo's etc compared to other setups back to back to show the improvement in power (parts they engineered)... You read that entire thread you can't deny that spryo's knows his **** and comes from a very technical engine performance background.


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

version1.655 said:


> there are no titanium crankshaft:screwy:


 They do exist: 
http://amt-advanced-materials-technology.com/materials/titanium-composites/ 
http://amt-advanced-materials-technology.com/applications/automotive-titanium-engine/


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

MarcoVR6SC said:


> They do exist:
> http://amt-advanced-materials-technology.com/materials/titanium-composites/
> http://amt-advanced-materials-technology.com/applications/automotive-titanium-engine/


 And what's that? 3cyl crank for a motorcycle with 80hp? Like I said before, if they were that great, they would be used in F1 and nascar instead of forged steel


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

And the link says*potential * engine uses. Porsche had a Ti crank in the late 60s, 68 I believe. ..obviously they used it one yr and then never again


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Again, why can't these numbers be achieved using realistic parts.? How many people are buying these $23,000 cranks? Here's where doubt lies. If F1 uses forged steel cranks & nearly all drag cars do to, WTF are they selling these to? AND if they're using these types of parts just for bragging rights, they are truly ass hats. i've seen some wild and fast shop cars but i've never seen one that goes so far out their customer's range before. There is no f***kin' body (other then maybe Spyros) spending that kinda bread on those parts. It's not even cost effective for any race team. 

And why would someone use a Ti crank solely to combat super high boost...which at the end of the day it's what it was built for. He's running 50+psi.


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

I just gave that link because you said: 


version1.655 said:


> there are no titanium crankshaft:screwy:


 With the screwy at the end. 

Is it useful, or worth the price, that’s a personal question, fact is that some people want them, or at least are testing them. 

That F1 or Nascar don’t use them may have different reasons, it may not give them sufficient added value at the moment or due to regulation restrictions, but that could change in the future. 

Plus, new Ti alloys and fabrication methods will see the daylight, so it’s probably just a matter of time to see it in high-end lightweight engines.


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

MMC is another subject entirely, regardless of what metal is part of it. 

The other one is just a feasibility study.


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

enginenerd said:


> MMC is another subject entirely, regardless of what metal is *part* of it.
> 
> The other one is just a *feasibility study.*


 ^^THIS


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Again, why can't these numbers be achieved using realistic parts.? How many people are buying these $23,000 cranks? Here's where doubt lies. If F1 uses forged steel cranks & nearly all drag cars do to, WTF are they selling these to? AND if they're using these types of parts just for bragging rights, they are truly ass hats. i've seen some wild and fast shop cars but i've never seen one that goes so far out their customer's range before. There is no f***kin' body (other then maybe Spyros) spending that kinda bread on those parts. It's not even cost effective for any race team.
> 
> And why would someone use a Ti crank solely to combat super high boost...which at the end of the day it's what it was built for. He's running 50+psi.


 The logic around making the parts super light and small is trying to reduce the rotating inertia and running friction of the engine.... this allows for super high rev's which as we all know increases HP as it goes hand in hand with VE... 

Keep in mind, these parts are being made for a 2000hp 4cylinder... he has already achieved 1500+hp on more conventional parts... sometimes extreme conditions take extreme engineering and materials. 

I think you guys should stop crying... you swore there was no such things as Ti crank shafts etc. and it has been displayed they exist..... only because you don't know of these parts doesn't mean they don't exist.... Only because you don't know the actual reasoning why specific racing industries don't use them, doesn't mean its BS. 
...metalurgy has came some ways since the 60's... better componsites and materials and experience... not to mention we are experiencing new manufacturing ways to do things that we never had in the past 10 yrs let alone the 60's.... 
I am all for questioning information given, its really what engineers are trainned to do, but be open minded, there arn't too many others making billet turbo housings and wheels for 100psi capability either


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## enginenerd (Oct 20, 2010)

Tractor pull diesel guys have gone past 200psi boost on aluminum compressor wheels for ages, using compound compression. It's not an issue of strength at the wheel, but efficiency may be able to be improved by making the veins thinner. 

If he really wants a 2000bhp 4 cylinder of small displacement, he should stop right there, and look at what the top fuel guys are doing. Steel crank from double remelt 4340, aluminum rods to stop the bearings from being pounded out- rebuild it "frequently" and throw half of it away every rebuild. 

Unless he got it to make power out to F1 rpm levels, the cylinder pressures are going to be ~= top fuel. It's simple math, figure out the BMEP for both engines. Only having ~2L is a bitch sometimes. 


PS: Inertia and running friction are totally unrelated, when speaking about a crankshaft, or even a rod big end. If you want to reduce running friction at the crank, you start paring down your bearing sizes- only in this case if you did that you would just pound them out.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I love a good honest debate so no bitching here. I'm no engineer either so i can't speak on what i don't know. I'm a business man, a shop owner for almost 20 yrs and i'm looking at it from a business stand point cause at the end of the day, this is why the car is being built. 

I'm not questioning if the parts are BS or not, i'm trying to understand WHY would a company spend so much on a shop car when their customer base doesn't call for it. Look at our Advertisers here. Do you see 034, Lugtronics, INA, CTS or anybody building something that would far outreach their customer base. It's not like we own Porsche's but i'm almost sure an Evo's MIEV engine can be comparable to something we have. 

I don't think spending that kinda money is worth having the highest HP numbers. This is where my doubt lies. Unlimited budget or not. You are an asshat.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

I don't disagree with either of you guys.... and I'm not questioning steel cranks... obviously this shop has some high dollar customers and this is what he is building for someone particular, a one off part. He builds many high dollar vehicles 1000+hp for many people. I understand turbo's that produce over 100psi of pressure, but its not everyday that someone is making their turbo parts for those types of levels... 

Inertia and running friction was only mentioned as an example to rev ability, he's really trying to make the motor rev higher for increased power.... I agree that you can't reduce running friction on the crank very much because of the bearings, but weight is than considered. There are other ways throughout his build as he explains his methods to reduce friction, in this case the piston/cylinder interface is your largest constrictor. 

The real question that I have is who else makes 2000hp 4cylinder? 
He has explained working with GM on their ecotec motors and has made some other crazy Escorts, but I can't think of anyone else that makes that type of power on a motor w/ 4pots


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Prior to gm using a gt45's on their drag racing ecotec motors, he was their supplier for turbochargers.


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> The real question that I have is who else makes 2000hp 4cylinder?


 not 2000hp, but id almost guarantee dudes so called titanium cranked evo wont do this. BTW, car has forged steel crank & aluminum con-rods


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