# Trading My E90 M3 For S3



## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

Hey All,

Taking my E90 to be appraised tonight, if all goes well I intend to buy a 2016 S3 (Sepang Blue). I love the E90 but it's about to be out of warranty and it has already proven to be a lot more expensive than my E46 M3. I'm a little nervous about losing the 3rd pedal. Any words of wisdom? Going with the performance package, and that's it probably. Does the non B&O stereo suck real bad?


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

what's up neighbor?

if u can afford b+o, get it! really worth it.
if you daily drive it, you may not miss the 3rd pedal.
just put it in dynamic mode and manual mode, and shift at will. enjoy the smooth shifts!

don't get sepang, it's a terrible color!

it's pretty much the same size, feels a little more nimble. needs springs (handling/body roll).
you'll probably want to mod it. go stage 1, and then just wait for any other mods. stage 1, going from 300 to 350 hp is a nice jump.
needs brake pads up front, oem are a lot dustier than my E90 was.
get clear bra and paint protection right away, if you can afford it, well worth it.

keep us posted.


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## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

RyanA3 said:


> don't get sepang, it's a terrible color!


Everything he said except this. Sepang is a wonderful color. Maybe he was being sarcastic?


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

RyanA3 said:


> what's up neighbor?
> 
> if u can afford b+o, get it! really worth it.
> if you daily drive it, you may not miss the 3rd pedal.
> ...



Ok I'll spring for the B&O if I can work it out.

You're probably right about the 3rd Pedal, I still have and plan to keep my E46 M3 so if I need the third pedal I can get my kicks there. 

Man if you hate sepang, you'd really hate my E46...Phoenix Yellow!

Yep, both M's have had the clear bra will do that again.


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

BeBop! said:


> Everything he said except this. Sepang is a wonderful color. Maybe he was being sarcastic?


Haha to each his own, my heart is set on sepang. I've got the most offensive colors on all my vehicles lol. Phoenix Yellow E46 M3, Marigold Yellow Honda Grom.


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## Sandman626 (Aug 12, 2006)

BeBop! said:


> Everything he said except this. Sepang is a wonderful color. Maybe he was being sarcastic?


Likely sarcastic -- probably just doesn't want too many people in our area having the same (wonderful) color! :thumbup: That's the reason I went with a different color actually -- my original order was in for Sepang before I changed it.


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## lilmira (Feb 4, 2014)

Haha look at what he drives. Yeah Sepang is terrible, worst colour ever since the dawn of time!


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

lilmira said:


> Haha look at what he drives. Yeah Sepang is terrible, worst colour ever since the dawn of time!


yep! worst color. ever.... don't get sepang!!!


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

lilmira said:


> Haha look at what he drives. Yeah Sepang is terrible, worst colour ever since the dawn of time!


Haha I just noticed. I pulled the trigger...2016 S3 Sepang Blue, Performance package, sport seats, B&O sound. I can't wait!


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## Xanlith (Apr 19, 2014)

RyanA3 said:


> needs brake pads up front, oem are a lot dustier than my E90 was.


You arent kidding. That was the first thing I noticed when I was washing the car, the front wheels get filthy. Way worse than my G ever was to the point I wondered if I had any pads left. Gunna have to find a good replacement when it comes time. That is one thing I missed about having a stick, I almost never used my brakes to slow down except for the last 5-10 miles an hour.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

Xanlith said:


> You arent kidding. That was the first thing I noticed when I was washing the car, the front wheels get filthy. Way worse than my G ever was to the point I wondered if I had any pads left. Gunna have to find a good replacement when it comes time. That is one thing I missed about having a stick, I almost never used my brakes to slow down except for the last 5-10 miles an hour.


Engine braking works with the DSG/S-Tronic too, just gotta use manual mode. 

Also, if you wax your wheels with a high-quality synthetic wax, brake dust will just wash right off. I'm not sure how that looks on the machined surfaces of the perf pack wheels though.


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## germanrox (Mar 30, 2001)

Get Panther Black 🏻


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## rwd6mt (Jul 19, 2015)

TripE46 said:


> Hey All,
> 
> Taking my E90 to be appraised tonight, if all goes well I intend to buy a 2016 S3 (Sepang Blue). I love the E90 but it's about to be out of warranty and it has already proven to be a lot more expensive than my E46 M3. I'm a little nervous about losing the 3rd pedal. Any words of wisdom? Going with the performance package, and that's it probably. Does the non B&O stereo suck real bad?


You aren't the first E90/92 M3 owner who I've heard of who is trading in for an S3. Out of curiosity, how do you compare the M3 to the S3?


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## mikeg01 (Jul 25, 2015)

I just traded my 2012 M3 Comp for the 2015 S3. Love it.Quattro is nice. My M3 was faster on the top end, sound was amazing as it was a V8. I think with a APR Or Revo chip it would have given my stock M3 a run for its money. 

The S3 pulls more down low it seems. Can't wait to chip it. The transmission in the M3 was a lot better though the shifts extremely quick. I had the DSG. 

Suspension on M3 Comp felt a lot more "tuned" for the track as well. 


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

rwd6mt said:


> You aren't the first E90/92 M3 owner who I've heard of who is trading in for an S3. Out of curiosity, how do you compare the M3 to the S3?


I prefer the ride, handling and power from the M3. That said, most of the power in the M comes from 5k + which I rarely get to unless I'm on an on ramp. So while I love what the M3 is able to do...I rarely do it. Also the M3's battery replacement was over $400 at an inde shop! The dealer wanted almost $700! Brakes are almost 1k per axle, and I have dumped in a qt of 10w-60 every 1000miles or so. I had it at 3 different dealers to find out where the oil was going, and they all told me that it was normal. One guy even showed me the BMW bulletin that says that they won't even address oil consumption unless I was adding every 750 miles or less. Maybe I bought one that was not properly broken in, beat on, or both (purchased around 50k miles). My E46 has cost me almost nothing aside from tires and brakes. For those reasons and a few others I decided to get rid of the M3 before my extended warranty is up (in November).

I landed on the S3 because I have sort of lost interest in most of the modern BMW's (the ones I can afford anyway). I wanted something with 4 doors, and AWD. I considered an STi, but I have already had one of those and I was looking for something a little less "boy racer". I actually expected to hate the S3 because of the DSG and because it's not an M3. I still wish that I could get a manual, but the DSG is legit. Fast, seamless shifts up and down with some "farts" in between. I can tell that it's one of those things that I will like the more I drive it, especially because it will be my DD. We got on a back road during the test drive and both the salesman and myself had a go. I was seriously impressed with the grip and power. I'm thinking that I'm going to get into way more trouble with the Audi than I did with the M3 and that's just fine with me. 

Bottom line, the Audi has got useable power and handling that is going to be tons of fun every day. With the BMW, I was putting around like it was a normal 3 series unless I was on a road trip. Even then I would have to make sure I had a quart of oil in the car at all times, all while worrying what I would do after the warranty was up. Not to mention that I'm the sort of idiot who drove 2 mid-atlantic winters in the M3 on summer tires. I will miss the M3 but I am so excited to have a car that I can "use"


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

mikeg01 said:


> I just traded my 2012 M3 Comp for the 2015 S3. Love it.Quattro is nice. My M3 was faster on the top end, sound was amazing as it was a V8. I think with a APR Or Revo chip it would have given my stock M3 a run for its money.
> 
> The S3 pulls more down low it seems. Can't wait to chip it. The transmission in the M3 was a lot better though the shifts extremely quick. I had the DSG.
> 
> ...


I agree, I never got to the track in the E90 and that's really where it belongs.


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## Antariusz (Nov 19, 2014)

TripE46 said:


> Hey All,
> 
> Taking my E90 to be appraised tonight, if all goes well I intend to buy a 2016 S3 (Sepang Blue). I love the E90 but it's about to be out of warranty and it has already proven to be a lot more expensive than my E46 M3. I'm a little nervous about losing the 3rd pedal. Any words of wisdom? Going with the performance package, and that's it probably. Does the non B&O stereo suck real bad?


It doesn't "suck" but the B&O system is easily worth 2 grand (or more) in terms of upgraded sound if you went with an aftermarket setup to try to improve the base system to something sounding as good of quality or better than the b&o system. For a 700 dollar option, it's simply a bargain.

Even with the cabriolet, which doesn't get the subwoofer, so one less (very important) speaker , I STILL think it was worth the price difference.


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## rwd6mt (Jul 19, 2015)

mikeg01 said:


> I just traded my 2012 M3 Comp for the 2015 S3. Love it.Quattro is nice. My M3 was faster on the top end, sound was amazing as it was a V8. I think with a APR Or Revo chip it would have given my stock M3 a run for its money.
> 
> The S3 pulls more down low it seems. Can't wait to chip it. The transmission in the M3 was a lot better though the shifts extremely quick. I had the DSG.
> 
> ...


That is interesting that you find the M3 transmission to be significantly better. Is the M3 DSG really that much better than the S3 dual clutch? I can't imagine shifting that much faster than the S3 auto. What do you think about the S3s steering feel/weight and handling for a daily driver?


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## rwd6mt (Jul 19, 2015)

TripE46 said:


> I prefer the ride, handling and power from the M3. That said, most of the power in the M comes from 5k + which I rarely get to unless I'm on an on ramp. So while I love what the M3 is able to do...I rarely do it. Also the M3's battery replacement was over $400 at an inde shop! The dealer wanted almost $700! Brakes are almost 1k per axle, and I have dumped in a qt of 10w-60 every 1000miles or so. I had it at 3 different dealers to find out where the oil was going, and they all told me that it was normal. One guy even showed me the BMW bulletin that says that they won't even address oil consumption unless I was adding every 750 miles or less. Maybe I bought one that was not properly broken in, beat on, or both (purchased around 50k miles). My E46 has cost me almost nothing aside from tires and brakes. For those reasons and a few others I decided to get rid of the M3 before my extended warranty is up (in November).
> 
> I landed on the S3 because I have sort of lost interest in most of the modern BMW's (the ones I can afford anyway). I wanted something with 4 doors, and AWD. I considered an STi, but I have already had one of those and I was looking for something a little less "boy racer". I actually expected to hate the S3 because of the DSG and because it's not an M3. I still wish that I could get a manual, but the DSG is legit. Fast, seamless shifts up and down with some "farts" in between. I can tell that it's one of those things that I will like the more I drive it, especially because it will be my DD. We got on a back road during the test drive and both the salesman and myself had a go. I was seriously impressed with the grip and power. I'm thinking that I'm going to get into way more trouble with the Audi than I did with the M3 and that's just fine with me.
> 
> Bottom line, the Audi has got useable power and handling that is going to be tons of fun every day. With the BMW, I was putting around like it was a normal 3 series unless I was on a road trip. Even then I would have to make sure I had a quart of oil in the car at all times, all while worrying what I would do after the warranty was up. Not to mention that I'm the sort of idiot who drove 2 mid-atlantic winters in the M3 on summer tires. I will miss the M3 but I am so excited to have a car that I can "use"


Great detailed post, thank you. Bummer on the high maintenance cost of your M3. 

How does the FWD biased haldex awd system in the S3 feel compared to your M3? Does it do a reasonably good job of hiding the FWD bias? I think ideally the system should sent torque to the front under cruising conditioning to get the efficiency benefits of FWD and then send torque to the back in an instant when doing performance driving.


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## Ajaxx (Jul 26, 2015)

Just traded my Porsche 997 C2S for an S3. I just wasn't driving the Porsche. A great car, but for just tooling around town it was overkill. I had only put 1500 miles on it in the last 18 months.

The S3 seems solid and strong.... I think this car will be a better fit.


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## Revolver1966 (Mar 30, 2014)

Ajaxx said:


> Just traded my Porsche 997 C2S for an S3. I just wasn't driving the Porsche. A great car, but for just tooling around town it was overkill. I had only put 1500 miles on it in the last 18 months.
> 
> The S3 seems solid and strong.... I think this car will be a better fit.


Interesting discussion here. The S3 really ticks many boxes for many people. 
The 997 C4S PDK has always interested me but they're quite expensive still. What was maintenance like on that thing?


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## Ajaxx (Jul 26, 2015)

Revolver1966 said:


> Interesting discussion here. The S3 really ticks many boxes for many people.
> The 997 C4S PDK has always interested me but they're quite expensive still. What was maintenance like on that thing?


Cost wasn't bad..... But of course I hadn't been putting many miles in it. The car was dealer serviced and I'd say I averaged about $600 a year for the last four or five years.


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

rwd6mt said:


> Great detailed post, thank you. Bummer on the high maintenance cost of your M3.
> 
> How does the FWD biased haldex awd system in the S3 feel compared to your M3? Does it do a reasonably good job of hiding the FWD bias? I think ideally the system should sent torque to the front under cruising conditioning to get the efficiency benefits of FWD and then send torque to the back in an instant when doing performance driving.


I have only test driven on thus far, and it was in dynamic mode the whole time. In dynamic mode it does a great job of hiding the FWD bias. To be honest the only reason that I thought the car was FWD biased was because I knew the AWD system/differential on the S3 is not the same as its big brother so in my mind I thought "well if its not the same as the S4, then it must be a FWDish system". As far as driving goes I couldn't tell. From what I have read the haldex system is able to power/torque to the rear wheels almost equally in dynamic mode (not just when the car needs it in turns etc).

I certainly did not feel the "push" the way you do in most RWD cars, but I didn't expect that. It felt more like a Subaru with that kind of "stand up and go" feeling that you get from AWD and a lot of power.


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

Ajaxx said:


> Just traded my Porsche 997 C2S for an S3. I just wasn't driving the Porsche. A great car, but for just tooling around town it was overkill. I had only put 1500 miles on it in the last 18 months.
> 
> The S3 seems solid and strong.... I think this car will be a better fit.


Funny, I was cross shopping 997 C2S's when I bought the Bimmer. I really wanted the C2S but I was deterred by my lack of Porsche knowledge, number of doors as I've got a boxer who frequently rides with me (the dog, not the fighter or the engine), and for whatever reason I could just not find one that I thought was a good car within my budget. 

It looks like I would have ended up with an S3 either way!


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## mikeg01 (Jul 25, 2015)

rwd6mt said:


> That is interesting that you find the M3 transmission to be significantly better. Is the M3 DSG really that much better than the S3 dual clutch? I can't imagine shifting that much faster than the S3 auto. What do you think about the S3s steering feel/weight and handling for a daily driver?


I really believe the M3 shifted more consistent with the touch of the paddle shifters. The s3 feels a bit laggy. But for the price it's not horrible by any means. I just think my M3 was quicker. I don't care for the steering wheel feel when in comfort mode. In the sport mode it feels a bit tighter. 

It's a great car for daily driving. I don't miss the M3 too much but that V8 screaming along at 7k RPM is pretty awesome. 


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## Xanlith (Apr 19, 2014)

mikeg01 said:


> I really believe the M3 shifted more consistent with the touch of the paddle shifters. The s3 feels a bit laggy. But for the price it's not horrible by any means. I just think my M3 was quicker. I don't care for the steering wheel feel when in comfort mode. In the sport mode it feels a bit tighter.


I run in individual mode usually which is set to Dynamic across the board except the suspension which I leave in comfort mode since I'm not racing to work and its the best config I've found.


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## mikeg01 (Jul 25, 2015)

I will give that a shot. I did notice that when putting it into dynamic it remains in dynamic except for transmission. It reverts from "S" to "D" after ignition shut off. Not sure what's up with that. 


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## Xanlith (Apr 19, 2014)

mikeg01 said:


> I will give that a shot. I did notice that when putting it into dynamic it remains in dynamic except for transmission. It reverts from "S" to "D" after ignition shut off. Not sure what's up with that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Asked that same question last week. General consensus is thats how all S3s are "by design".


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## primolak (Jul 30, 2015)

Xanlith said:


> I run in individual mode usually which is set to Dynamic across the board except the suspension which I leave in comfort mode since I'm not racing to work and its the best config I've found.


Same setting here. 


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

Taking delivery on Saturday morning, can't wait! Different car though. 2016 Sepang Blue, black optic performance package, tech package, led package. The other one was coming from far away and was sold before the dealer could get it.


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

TripE46 said:


> Taking delivery on Saturday morning, can't wait! Different car though. 2016 Sepang Blue, black optic performance package, tech package, led package. The other one was coming from far away and was sold before the dealer could get it.


congrats. I think you have 85% of what you'll wait. there is a chance that you'll greatly regret not have the sound pkg. you can always get out of this deal. REALLY consider this.

you can't retrofit the sound system.

I just want you to be happy.


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

Xanlith said:


> You arent kidding. That was the first thing I noticed when I was washing the car, the front wheels get filthy. Way worse than my G ever was to the point I wondered if I had any pads left. Gunna have to find a good replacement when it comes time. That is one thing I missed about having a stick, I almost never used my brakes to slow down except for the last 5-10 miles an hour.


Wow! 200 miles and there is brake dust everywhere!!!


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## Revolver1966 (Mar 30, 2014)

Xanlith said:


> You arent kidding. That was the first thing I noticed when I was washing the car, the front wheels get filthy. Way worse than my G ever was to the point I wondered if I had any pads left. Gunna have to find a good replacement when it comes time. That is one thing I missed about having a stick, I almost never used my brakes to slow down except for the last 5-10 miles an hour.


Paddles function same as your manual did as far as engine braking goes.


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## M this 2! (Feb 8, 2012)

BOTH Porsche and Audi have the ignition start up to always be in D mode. Must be just covering their ass.

My individual setting is Comfort everywhere but steering as it's WAY to soft a steering. I mainly drive in Dynamic anyways and enjoy that it's NOT in S mode. 

Other things on shifting:

When you are in D and move to Manual mode, it is still lazy and mellow.......but manual
When you are in S and move to Manual mode, it is NOW a very fast and aggressive manual 

Simple, Simple things you can do that really evolve the S3, 

H&R rear swaybar will make the car turn in a lot more like your outgoing M3.

Software adds basically 55hp and rounds the power level to 350hp and 360tq. 

My GIAC S3 w/ zero other mods now does a 3.84 0-60 that I logged. At a sticky track it'd of been better!! Pretty insane for a 2.0 4 banger.


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## primolak (Jul 30, 2015)

M this 2! said:


> BOTH Porsche and Audi have the ignition start up to always be in D mode. Must be just covering their ass.
> 
> My individual setting is Comfort everywhere but steering as it's WAY to soft a steering. I mainly drive in Dynamic anyways and enjoy that it's NOT in S mode.
> 
> ...


Wow. That's fast! I would love to tune but never have before and have a lot to learn. Especially how not to get screwed at the service dept over it. 

Thanks for the D and S manual tip. Didn't know that. 


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

M this 2! said:


> BOTH Porsche and Audi have the ignition start up to always be in D mode. Must be just covering their ass.
> 
> My individual setting is Comfort everywhere but steering as it's WAY to soft a steering. I mainly drive in Dynamic anyways and enjoy that it's NOT in S mode.
> 
> ...


When you say "move to manual mode" what do you mean? I thought S meant manual mode. I drive with it in "individual" mode and I've set everything to dynamic, knock the shifter to the right for S and use the paddles. Does it enter manual mode once you start shifting on your own?

Sorry for the noob question, I'm on day 4 of ownership and I'm coming from a decade of 6 speed BMW M cars so I'm a little stupid when it comes to this fancy gearbox.


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

RyanA3 said:


> congrats. I think you have 85% of what you'll wait. there is a chance that you'll greatly regret not have the sound pkg. you can always get out of this deal. REALLY consider this.
> 
> you can't retrofit the sound system.
> 
> I just want you to be happy.


lol well thanks! I would have liked to get the B&O system, but I wasn't going to wait for another car over the stereo, I'm a driver above all else. Also the S3 is so damn quiet that I have yet to even listen to music on the stock stereo! The M3 had such an engaging soundtrack that I could still _feel_ it even with the music up. I had the music on for a minute or two in the S3 and I felt like I was driving an electric car it was so quiet. The stock sound is not terrible, just lacking in the bass department. So if I find myself listening to music more I will just add a powered sub (bass link or something like that).


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## reno15a3 (Apr 28, 2015)

I moved to an A3 2.0T Quattro from a manual AWD E92 (3.0L I6 328xi), which I had for 6 years. Some of this will not translate to an S3 vs M3 comparison, but for what it's worth, here's my summarized experience between the two drivetrains. Some may disagree.

The engine sounds more cold and mechanical to me versus the old BMW I6 that sang. Nonetheless, I do like the sound of this engine. It's mechanical but behaved and quiet (sometimes too quiet). I also test drove a new 328xi back when I was car shopping (the newer turbo 4-cyl engine), and I thought this iteration sounded very harsh. I found it really disappointing. Their auto (traditional torque converter, not a DSG type) also feels terrible. 

The turbo lag and surge of power in the middle of the band has taken some getting used to, but I've since gotten more familiar with when to expect surges based on rpm and throttle position and so forth.

The front-wheel bias is also very apparent versus the rear-wheel bias of BMW's AWD system in my old E92. It's not a huge deal but it feels like I'm driving a FWD car again and at times find myself anticipating understeer. Whether I'll get it like in a typical FWD, I haven't found out yet. I imagine the difference will be even more dramatic for you coming from a strictly RWD car.

And the biggest thing that it took for me to get used to, the DSG. I have nothing but praise for how this transmission upshifts. It's runs through the gears faster and more crisply than I could ever dream of. Downshifts however can be trying. I've experienced nice, quick, rev-matched downshifts and also frustratingly slow downshifts after several moments of indecision (and worse, without a rev match). I'm not sure but throttle position seems to have the most effect on how a downshift will turn out. I've learned to take my foot off the gas for a moment before and through a downshift. There are other idiosyncrasies too, such as how the transmission grabs from a standstill (it gets moving notably more quickly than a traditional auto). And don't shift into gear while stationary but with your foot off the brake (you get a not so pleasant-feeling thunk). The point is, it's not a regular automatic transmission a.k.a. slushbox. That is, it's an automated manual, not an "auto", so if this is your first DSG, there will probably be an adjustment period for you. At least there was one for me. Oh, and I also miss not having that physical tell of what gear I'm in (you know, the shifter itself).

So, in short, it's a more mechanical sounding engine, my iteration of the Quattro system feels more like FWD, and I still would prefer a manual, but you get used to the idiosyncrasies of the DSG and once you do, it becomes quite fun.


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

where are you?
I am in ardmore.


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

RyanA3 said:


> where are you?
> I am in ardmore.


Malvern, but I'm often found in Wayne too.


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## RyanA3 (May 11, 2005)

TripE46 said:


> Malvern, but I'm often found in Wayne too.


awesome my brother lives in Malvern.
pm me your number and I'll text you when I'm out there!
have you ever been to cars and coffee in wc?


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## TripE46 (Feb 23, 2013)

RyanA3 said:


> awesome my brother lives in Malvern.
> pm me your number and I'll text you when I'm out there!
> have you ever been to cars and coffee in wc?


Yup, will probably be there tomorrow you?


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