# EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad?



## Tristan (Aug 2, 2001)

I think I'm down to these two pads, both are similar priced and make similar claims. Good cold feel with little or no brake fade on fast street or moderate track conditions. But which one lives up to their claims better.
which has:
better cold feel:
better fade resistance:
beter overall braking:
oh this is for an a2 golf


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## kwokA3T (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

it is very difficult to select front brake pads for street driving ... 
let's separate pads for "track days" & street/performance upgrade pads ... as these are really v. different friction compounds ...
you have selected two rather different street pads to compare ...
first. you have not specified which ferodo compound, so I will focus on DS2500 (an organic, street/highway compound (mu = 0.47 typical) ... DS2000 has been discontinued, although some warehouse distributors may still have inventory ...
you would like to compare with EBC GreenStuff (a short fibre length Kevlar composite, street/highway compound (mu = 0.48 typical) ... 
so immediately you have two different friction compounds & two different resin binders ... & DS2500 structure contains a thermal insulator, just above steel mounting/backing plate ... so these really are different products ...
"GS" exhibits a higher temp rise & thermal retention during use, then "DS25" ... there are issues with the binding resin overheating & transfering to rotor face - also high thermal transfer into some manufacturer's one-piece iron rotors resulting in localized hard spots - using correct rotors will minimize, but not eliminate ... on plus side is v. good cold bite & moderate wear rate - "dusting" is subjective, but appears to dust less (dust is simply lighter colour) ... moderate cost ...
"DS25" compound works well for street/limited canyon driving, but will begin to crumble/surface break-up if used in same manner as track pads ... all street pads must be allowed to cool from time to time (by driving car, not by parking) ... binding resin boiling & transfer to rotor appear to be less then "GS" ... good cold bite ... relatively expensive for street pad ... moderate dust
both types of pads show some resonance/squealing - with light application of brake pedal ... "GS" more so then "DS25" ...
both exhibit reasonably good hot fade resistance ... but are still street pads, not track pads - be warned ...
there is significant cost difference ...
I have used EBC original greenstuff, several years ago, & will not fit again ...
I am undecided about Ferodo DS2500, but am considering trying this compound on Ate "PowerDisk" rotors ... any high friction street pad really requires slotted rotors ...
a suggestion - do not use same pad compound on rear brakes of any frontwheel drive a2,a3,a4 vag chassis - always use softer rear compound to prevent rear wheel locking on wet roads ... textar/pagid/mintex/ferodo oem street are all acceptable on rear brakes, WHEN high coefficient friction, low compression, front pads fitted for street driving ...
it is not an easy decision & the Pagid SportRS4-2-1 front pads are only available with bare back/no clip/no shim design for autox ... so I am looking at DS2500 also ... 
finally. are you only driver ... if gf &/or wife also drives, I would factor this into consideration ...


[Modified by kwokA3T, 7:27 AM 10-16-2002]


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## New Hotness (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

Good show
I am gonna try the the DS2500 next. I loved the DS2000 on a smaller rotor (10.1"). I have the Ferado Streets now on my 12.3" and they suck. Dont get them for the front for anycar. I am running Pagid OE in the rear.


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## Tristan (Aug 2, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (New Hotness)*

god lord man where did you learn all that stuff?
anyways, excellent responce, thanbkyou. I think I will be trying the ferodo fast road compound. ds2500


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

Good lord is right! Kwok has to be one of the most knowledgeable guys on this forum http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







Too bad he doesn't post more often








The DS2000 is pretty good as a street/track pad. Definitely better than the standard Ferodo. The Mintex C-tech is also comparable. 
I'll agree with Kwok on running softer pads in the rear to prevent lockup, especially on the track. I'm actually thinking of running OEM pads in the back combined with my DS2000 upfront for my track days.......
-Mike P


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## Tristan (Aug 2, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (tyrolkid)*

yeah I just noticed that what I was refering to as the fast street pad is the ferodo ds2000. How does htis compare with the ds2500.


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## kwokA3T (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

tyrolkid, the original factory rear pad set (1J0 698 451 textar/medium hardness) works well - the revised set (1J0 698 451 "A") is soft, & should not be used ...
tristan, this morning I purchased Ferodo FCP590"H" front pad set (DS2500 compound) from hong kong ferodo agent ... and will fit as soon as time/travel permits ...
the difference between DS2000 & DS2500 is coefficient of friction - ds20 is mu = 0.42 & ds25 is mu = 0.47/0.48, otherwise compound max temp is similar ... for comparison, factory oem front pads are mu = 0.27/0.29, w/ latest revision "AB" spec'd @ mu = 0.30 (audi parts) ...
the ds2500 pads, on my desk, are marked "FCP590H", "DS2500" & "FerodoRacing", however, still street pads ...
friction surface is blanchard ground flat, without edge bevel ... 
no wear sensor(s) ... piston clips are supplied on 2 pads ... you must add pad adhesive to the other 2 pads w/o clips ...
options - some owners will sand small leading-edge/trailing-edge bevels to reduce pad bedding-in time - other owners do not ...
a suggestion - high coefficient/low compression pads require care in bedding-in - one method is to gradually heat pad set, to increasing temp, by applying brakes for 4-5 seconds (at 50mph & slowing car down to 5-10mph & releasing pedal) this is repeated 15 to 20 times, during which pads should cool down between brake applications ... brake pedal moderately applied each time, progressively increasing pressure ... the compound must be progressively heated to fully set binding resin & to burn off volitile components, to create high friction contact surface on pad ... inspect rotor surfaces for any pad transfer to rotor ... 
I paid $116usd in hong kong - list is $146 usd in europe - http://[email protected] will quote in usa - this pad set is for G4, J4 & audi (with factory calipers) ... confirm part no. - for your chassis ...



[Modified by kwokA3T, 5:55 AM 10-17-2002]


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## Tristan (Aug 2, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

so baisicly the ds2500 and the ds2000 are pretty similar except the ds2500 will have slightly better initial bite?
Also when braking the pads in do you push on the pedal 4 sec. then let it cool, then repeat. or do you brake 15 times then let it cool and repeat?
Additionally how does bevelling the edge help brake in?
one more thing, how long should you let the brakes cool between applcations?


[Modified by Tristan, 10:52 PM 10-16-2002]


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

Excellent write up Kwok! Thats a lot of very specific info I never knew.
I have used both pads on my car for street use and one weekend a month auto-xing. I thought they were very comparable.
The EBC's were great. Good initial bite and I never faded them. They did however eat through two sets of very expensive rotors.








The Ferodo DS2000 performed very much the same, but they were much more reliable. No rotors were harmed and they wore at an average rate. They were noticeably more dusty (than the EBC's), but its nothing a garden hose can't cure.








You can't go wrong either way, just be weary of how fast you heat up and cool down the EBC's.


[Modified by Crash6, 11:12 AM 10-17-2002]


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## kwokA3T (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

let me cut to the chase - the ds2000 may be available at a lower price, if warehouse distributor has both 2000 & 2500 on hand - by all means go for 2000 ... if you are quoted similar prices, then go for 2500 ... ferodo increased mu to keep up with competitors ...
re: edge beveling ... on flat faced hard pads, initially following installation, the leading edge will dig in & slightly lift trailing edge, increasing length of time to develop complete contact w/rotor surface ... on organic compound pads (not full metallic) one remedy is to slightly chamfer or bevel the leading & trailing edges - small amount will be enough - say 2mmX2mm will usually be enough - also will reduce resonance/squealing first 2 weeks going forward & reverse ... 
re: bedding-in ... to bed these pads, you want to avoid over-heating initially, and panic stops that transfer leading-edge compound to the rotor face ...
there are several techniques ... I bed my new brake pads by by driving to open road, where I can safely accelerate to 60mph, then using about 1/2 to 2/3 normal pedal pressure, apply brakes for 4-5 seconds & reduce car speed to approx 10 mph, accelerate back up to 60mph & do again - say 5 times - then drive without using brakes for 7-8 minutes & do another set of 5 ... do 4 sets or 5 sets & ds2000/ds2500 should be 50% bedded-in & suitable for street driving ... but try to avoid panic stops for several weeks ... also try to avoid "lightly resting foot on brake pedal" as light dragging will smear compound on rotor face ...
there are also other acceptable techniques, to be added by others ...
for maximum benefit from new pads, I would purge old brake fluid & replace (if 1 yr old or older) ...


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## kwokA3T (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

crash6, the ds2500 surface has graphite nodules as part of compound, but not the large number textar blends in T4322 compound ... there will be moderate dusting, but only garden hose level ...
from conversations here & in europe, it appears that owers are changing away from "greenstuff" ... frankly, the ferodo list price is abit high, & could be reduced by federal-mogul to increase use of ds2500 ...


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

Thanks. To be quite honest, I haven't even seen the ds2500's yet. Ds2000's are still easy to get over here and average 50 euro a set. I'll be sure to put them on a very short list of potential brake pad purchases early next year. As for the EBC's, I spoke to a representative a couple of times earlier this year. He said the problem with the pads warping the rotors on non-race prepped cars has been aknowledged. They will be trying a new formula next year. I think he said something about reducing the amount of kevlar and increasing the amount of copper or brass..... I can't remember which.
I'm back to running stock in the rear while I try to get my front brakes sorted out. I might put them back to stock here very soon. Looks like winter has come early here so it might be spring time before I'm back to wrenching.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

Here is a link outlining the difference between Ferodo compounds:
http://www.cobaltfriction.com/prod-cat/brake_pads_ferodo.htm
-Mike P



[Modified by tyrolkid, 6:14 AM 10-17-2002]


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## O_loung1 (Feb 13, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (tyrolkid)*

this is a good thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
ive got to ask the technical guys an off topic question, ive heard of *tyrolkid* before http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and now * kwokA3T*
i ordered oem style(ate) rear rotors with mintex reds for the rear brakes on my 01 vr. the drivers side rear pad is completely gone and the metal backing is now grinding into the rotters. cost= about $95.00 from vwparts.com
i went to dealership today to order replacement torque bolts - indicated from the bentley and for a total of 16 bolts cost $70.00. i ordered them anyway since they need to be shipped from distribution center next week and can get full refund if i dont use any of them. note= about 4 of them are for suspension upgrades for later..
my question is, _ which bolts are critical to replace_ when replacing the rears brakes/rotors?? this is turning a $95 job to a $160 job. not that i like complaining, but im dipping into my tire budget and two of them are in bad shape. is it safe not replacing "torque bolts", i ve not seen any posts on people who say they have replaced them. thanks.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (O_loung1)*

I'm probably opening a can of worms here......
There are only two bolts that need to be loosened to change the rear brakes. Some rear pads come with new bolts. Others dont. A little dab of blue loctite and you'll be fine reusing the stock ones. Yes, I know that's not the _correct_ procedure, but it works in practice. 
-Mike P
P.S. 16 bolts?!?! I have no clue what you're talking about.


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## kwokA3T (Sep 3, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (tyrolkid)*

"O_loung1" , I have impression that you have VR6 4motion ... 
"tyrolkid" , the bolt you refered to, is p.n. 8E0 615 141, M8x22-mk, Hex, Shoulder, SelfLocking (supplied w/ factory rear brake pad set) ... these are used to fasten rear caliper to hollow guide pin & secure rear caliper to carrier frame ... "no can of worms" ...
all brake related fasteners are considered critical re:manufacturer's liability ... if your existing caliper bolts have not been over-tightened, or otherwise damaged, then these can be reused by adding fresh Loctite "Blue" ... just watch the torque on these ... do not over tighten ... if new bolts easily available, then replace per manual ...
"O_loung1" the above bolts (2 pieces per caliper) allow rear pad replacement ... to also change rear rotors, p.n. N907 403 01 , M10X1.25X30, Allen Key Head Bolt (Hex Socket Head), used to fasten carrier frame to rear suspension, must be removed (2 pieces per frame ... these are critical brake fasteners & due to possible head twisting, should be replaced ... torque/stretch is critical & must be correct ...
something bentley did not state is that high quality, chromevanadium (CRV) alloy hex key drive point, in good condition, is req'd to accurately tighten the carrier socket bolts, preventing head damage ... 
by my count, 4 caliper guide pin bolts & 4 carrier hex socket bolts, total, to change rear rotors & pads ...
to prevent an avalanche of comments ... there is significant difference between rear carrier socket head bolts & front carrier hex head bolts - fronts are routinely reused, w/ fresh loctite on threads ...
pls supply additional description of your VR6 ... if you have FWD model, then there is matter of rear wheel bearings ... and the ABS generator ring ...



[Modified by kwokA3T, 2:21 AM 10-19-2002]


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## O_loung1 (Feb 13, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

thanks for the replys. 
i only have the N.A. spec FWD, no 4-motion. 
here my shopping list- please keep in mind i was buy parts for future suspension replace/upgrade:
part # #
906-545-01 2
903-536-03 2
101-064-02 2
102-078-03 2
905-173-02 2
102-861-02 2 
906-484-01 8
8E0-615-141 2
i know the *906-484-01* bolts is for suspension as well as some nuts. 
looks like im missing *(4)N907 403 01*. and picking up a few extra parts. i ll call to see if they can charge it up on my card. 
thanks for the info. much appreciated. suspension/brake newbie at dealership armed with bentley and no _elvis_ is recipe for embarressment. 

quote:[HR][/HR]I'll agree with Kwok on running softer pads in the rear to prevent lockup, especially on the track. I'm actually thinking of running OEM pads in the back combined with my DS2000 upfront for my track days.......[HR][/HR]​on the rears, seems like the rears are soft - which is good for both street and track. no need to change to mintex red like i did. i remember anthony - adg44 warped his rotors running EBC green and other people running Mintex redbox warp all around also. theres a good mix of TT rotors and zimmerman rotors in this mix of warpage. hehe, the more i read, the more i should have researced. lol


[Modified by O_loung1, 11:03 AM 10-18-2002]


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## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (O_loung1)*

I actually love my EBCs for street use. Incredible cold bite, no dust (ever), no squeak (ever), and my rotors and pads still look brand new after 6 months. I tried wilwoods and hawk before, and although the Hawk HP+ were absolutely the best pad I've ever felt - I couldn't handle the noise. Guess I'm a pussssy. I also put EBCs on my wife's Camry after experimenting with alot of options (early Camrys have horrible brakes) and it completely transformed the car, with no issues after over a year.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

Hey there is some great technical information in this thread. Nice.
I can give a 1st hand account of the Greenstuff on an A2 8v GTI w/rear drums. I am running whatever rear shoes were on the car when I bought it, stainless lines, DOT5 Ford brake fluid, Greenstuff front pads and stock vented 'slab' (no silly holes, no slots) front rotors. The car also has the stock VW front spoiler with brake cooling ducts that points some airflow in the general direction of the front brakes.
We ran this combination at Gingerman Raceway for a track day with 3 run-groups, 20 minute sessions and 2 drivers sharing the car with street performance tires. We ran back to back sessions on, with one session off all day with no brake fade. Now the pedal had what I feel is excessive travel, but that is likely due to mis adjusted rear brakes, because the brakes were always 'right there' after about 1.5-2" of pedal travel. This is not a very high speed track, since the longest straight is uphill, so we were just getting to 5k-6k rpm in 4th gear, but spent most of the lap in 3rd gear. A higher speed track may well pack more heat into the brakes.
They have also performed quite well on autocross weekends and street driving in cool weather. I doubt that they would be adequate for track use on a heavier car, but the lighter A2 or earlier cars should be able to get away with them on street tires. Next time out I will throw a set of roadrace tires on and see how the braking system handles the higher load.
I would highly recommend EBC greens for an A1 or A2 owner looking for a decent track day capable street pad. For hardcore track use with my 1986 ITB car, freinds with more racing experience than I had recommended the Performance Friction race pads, but they are no longer available for 9.6" VW brakes, so I am going with Hawk 'blue' front pads, adding a proportioning valve, converting the rear to drums and putting cheap old slippery shoes out back.
Chris


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## C.J. (Jun 10, 1999)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

Very very good info!
Where can I find information about brake pad construction, as mentioned in this thread?
I've been using "GS" for over a year now and have this "*there are issues with the binding resin overheating & transfering to rotor face*" problem..
I don't think there is anything that can be done to solve this.. so I'm looking into a different brand of pad to replace them...
Mike


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## O_loung1 (Feb 13, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (C.J.)*

finished the rear brake job this weekend, thanks to 
*tyrolkid* and * kwokA3T*!! much appreciated the help. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
went ahead and not replace any of the four torque bolts since i couldnt pick them up from dealership. everything seems to be fine


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## euro_vw (Jun 5, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (O_loung1)*

I haven't seen my rear rotors yet on my 2001 Jetta 1.8t, but I have a question: are rotors removed without wheel bearings (just like front ones)? 'cause I see all pics of rear rotors, and it seems like they are just like front ones, remove calipers, remove rotors. Anyone?
thanks.


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## FroOch (May 26, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (kwokA3T)*

Wow... I dont know how old this thread is but Kwok has all kinds of info in this thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to you sir.


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (FroOch)*

Wow, this is an oldie-but-goodie, one year old this month. Kwok gave me a source to purchase and got me hooked on those DS2500's. They're still my pad of choice for the front brakes. I'm thinking of trying some of those Pagid R4-2-1 pads next summer; I've heard a lot of good things about them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (euro_vw)*

The rear rotors come out without affecting the rear bearings.


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (Tristan)*

Go with the Hawk HPS. Fantastic pads. I love them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_The rear rotors come out without affecting the rear bearings. 

Is this something new for the A4 chassis cars? Every VW I have ever worked on had the bearings housed in the rear rotors. When you change rotors you have to transfer the outer race to the new rotor and repack the bearings - or just change bearings at the same time (they are not expensive at all). Must be different now, and I never noticed.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (chois)*

Yup. It's new for the mk4 chassis car. Makes swapping so much easier than my previous mk3.


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## TrierBora (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (reflexgti)*

Good thread...


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: EBC Greenstuff vs Ferodo Fast street. Which is the better pad? (TrierBora)*

very old thread, but always good. driving a year on both pads with track use, and the 2500s simply rule. i put 12k on them w/ 3 track day and the pads look great. so do the rotors. the last outing had 3 issues of fading, but i truely over drove my stock setup and boiled the fluid. my fault, not the cars. Kwok is right again with the needed cool down time after such heat. then everything is perfect again.


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