# S3 vs. S5... a dilemma.



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

So I have the itch to replace my MK6 Golf R which I sold last November, I'm looking hard at an Audi, hopefully to take delivery in the next 4-6 months. However, I'm having *so* much trouble making a decision. I actually have a deposit to secure my name first on the list for a 2016 S5 in Daytona Gray, manual transmission, Technology Package, Black Optics and Sport Diff. That would be my second car as I currently own a 2014 VW CC, and I'm happy with it as a daily.

Here's my situation and why this is difficult for me:

- I'm really impressed with the MK7 Golf R (a good friend just purchased one), and the S3 has therefore come on my radar as it's essentially the same car underneath. Instead of buying an S5 I've been thinking of trading my CC for an S3, and hopefully this will scratch the itch of replacing my Golf R long enough for other options to come available in 2-3 years.

- If I'm buying a *second* car, it absolutely must be a manual transmission. Period. This limits my options. If I'm replacing my CC it's not important (it's currently a DSG).

- The car I lust after the most, the S5, is nearing its model run end and will be replaced in the next 12-18 months by the B9 model, therefore it seems outdated and compares poorly to other cars in its same class.

- The other car that I REALLY want is the MKIII TTS/TTRS. However, from what I've read all journalists are saying that Audi is refusing to bring this car to the US with a manual transmission.

So my options are:

1) Buy a current S5 once the 2016 becomes available, which will be end-of-summer or early Fall. The S5 is gorgeous, comes with a manual transmission and is at the end of its model run so there may be incentives and value packages available, plus the platform has been well sorted by this point. Issues with the S5: Weight and power. The S3 is faster for nearly $10,000 less...

2) Trade my CC on an S3 in DSG as a daily, and hope that this will be enough of a car for me to wait 2-3 years and possibly look at the new TT-RS (possibly a manual?) or B9 S5, the latter which is supposed to be 200-300 lbs. lighter.

3) Hold on and daily the CC for the slight, remote possibility that the upcoming MKIII TTS will be available with a manual transmission.

What do you guys think? Are you guys really happy with your S3s, enough that you feel it's a good compromise car that you'll be able to hang on to for a while? 

P.S.: Financially, none of these options present an issue. It's just a question of better/worse, and obviously I'd get more for my money with the S3 because not only is it cheaper, but I'd be trading in as opposed to just buying.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

S3 on the right, S5 on the left.

New vs Old

1 year old design vs. 8 Year old design

Google Earth Nav and all the latest goodies (hot spot etc...) Vs None of that

LED headlights vs. Xenon Headlights.

Magnetic ride suspension vs. not available 

0-60 mph 4.4 | Quarter mile 13.0 vs. 0-60 mph 4.7 | Quarter mile 13.2

$42k base price vs. $50k base price.

No Home Link vs. Home Link

No seat memory vs. Seat memory

Better Bang and olufsen vs Good Bang and olusfen

Ok interior materials vs better interior materials.

New modern looking interior vs. 8 year old outdated looking interior.


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## sgt_cr (Mar 18, 2015)

I really dont like to get cars when they are about to get a new model, you will be getting a more reliable car true, but the interior, the looks and the technology that comes with it is going to be not as new as the others cars, and if the new S5 comes and it blow your mind, you will be like, **** what did I do.

The S3 is a great and fun little car, and it comes pack with new stuff, do you really need the car now? maybe you can hold till the new S5 comes? or at least some leak of the new S5, maybe even wait for the new s4 to come around as well.


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## misaka (Feb 8, 2013)

With the direction the Audi seems to be going, I wonder if the S5 will be the last S5 with a manual transmission. I'm pretty sure that time and time again Audi has stated they're not so interested in manuals in the US.

You could consider a Golf R with MT?


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

Tony_S3 said:


> S3 on the right, S5 on the left.
> 
> Magnetic ride suspension vs. not available


S4/S5 has a magnetic ride package - "Adjustable damping suspension". Most reviews of the S4/S5 call it a 'must have' option.

Edit: I guess it might not be magnetic ride, but it is a continuously-adjustable suspension like magnetic ride, and is either magride or something similar to the DCC on the mk7 gti/golf r.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

misaka said:


> With the direction the Audi seems to be going, I wonder if the S5 will be the last S5 with a manual transmission. I'm pretty sure that time and time again Audi has stated they're not so interested in manuals in the US.
> 
> You could consider a Golf R with MT?


Yep, I've thought of that as well. I wish they'd give us a forecast -- if that's the case, I'd absolutely, positively buy the S5. Manual transmission is THAT important to me. And because of that, it's why I'm still heavily considering a car that is ultimately an updated version of an 8 year old design -- because I know it will have what I want, and there's no guarantee that the B9 will.

I'm not really that interested in the Golf R. There's a bit of interest in it, but I had a MK6 and while it was a wonderful car I'm not entirely sure I want to go down that same path again.



sgt_cr said:


> I really dont like to get cars when they are about to get a new model, you will be getting a more reliable car true, but the interior, the looks and the technology that comes with it is going to be not as new as the others cars, and if the new S5 comes and it blow your mind, you will be like, **** what did I do.
> 
> The S3 is a great and fun little car, and it comes pack with new stuff, do you really need the car now? maybe you can hold till the new S5 comes? or at least some leak of the new S5, maybe even wait for the new s4 to come around as well.


I agree about the electronics comments -- the interior and styling though in my opinion in the S4/S5 is still top notch and up there with current stuff in its price range. 

I don't *need* a car now, but I feel like these kind of purchases are rarely made because of need. I'd love to see some details on the B9 platform -- I'm hoping we get something in April.



araemo said:


> S4/S5 has a magnetic ride package - "Adjustable damping suspension". Most reviews of the S4/S5 call it a 'must have' option.
> 
> Edit: I guess it might not be magnetic ride, but it is a continuously-adjustable suspension like magnetic ride, and is either magride or something similar to the DCC on the mk7 gti/golf r.


Interesting, I've heard that Adaptive Damping was NOT a must-have, and that it was really only worth it if you spend a lot of time on the highway.. 

Some good thoughts so far -- I'd love to hear more owners thoughts on their S3s, and if they considered an S4 or even other cars like BMW, and why they chose an S3.


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## kuma1212 (Sep 22, 2005)

How about a BMW 235M? I would choose this over an S3, but I need 4 doors, so it's off my list.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

kuma1212 said:


> How about a BMW 235M? I would choose this over an S3, but I need 4 doors, so it's off my list.


No interest in BMW, really.


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## soulflyer (Feb 18, 2012)

I drive an S3 (when its not in the shop for repairs!!!) and I had the opportunity to drive an S4 and an S5 two weeks ago on the ice for an afternoon with the Audi Driving experience... first impression was that the interior in both the S4 and S5 looks really outdated compared to the S3. And I found that the S5 is a tad tighter for taller people. I am 185cm and I had the feeling the S5 is too small, the S3 is just right. The only reason for the S5 would be the engine (if you really need 6 cylinders), the torsen based Quattro drivetrain and the possibility of a manual transmission. Right now I am driving a brand new Q5 (loaner) and it has the same outdated look and feel. The MMI with its plasticy buttons and the small MMI knob is really outdated compared to the touch MMI knob and the nice metal buttons in the S3. And then however the TTS is looking sharp too since it gets the similar interior as the S3 this might be a viable option as well since you don't need 4 doors... 

Good luck with your choice!


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

jsausley said:


> Interesting, I've heard that Adaptive Damping was NOT a must-have, and that it was really only worth it if you spend a lot of time on the highway..


That's odd, I'd expect the opposite: If you spend a lot of time on the highway, you won't notice an overly harsh suspension in your commute as much as if you are mostly on surface streets, so if you spend a lot of time on the highway, you could just get the standard sport suspension (or an upgraded after-market sport suspension) and be quite happy.



> Some good thoughts so far -- I'd love to hear more owners thoughts on their S3s, and if they considered an S4 or even other cars like BMW, and why they chose an S3.


So, I don't have an S3 yet, but I did back-to-back test drive against a 335i x-drive and a CLA45 AMG... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7087701-Audi-RS3-Announced!!&p=86843436#post86843436

I know I wrote more somewhere about why I preferred the S3, especially compared to the 335, but as for the S4:
The S4 is just a bit higher in price than I really want to get into, when similarly equipped, and it doesn't really add any 'must haves' for me. The rear-bias to the AWD + the sport differential sounds fun.... but the actual handling of the S3 is probably better due to having less weight in front of the front axle, combined with the much lower overall weight. Both are beasts when tuned, and are great cars, but I do want a 'fully loaded' car with the modern electronics, so the age of the B8.5 platform is a major issue for me. (Hell, I'm hoping the 2016 S3s get android auto/carplay integration.. not holding my breath, but hoping.)

What has a bigger chance of swaying me from the S3 is a MK3 TT-S... but then price is an issue again, as well as the two doors issue. But the much better LED headlights, the fancy instrument cluster, and slightly upgraded haldex software from the factory are all plusses there.... of course, it isn't out here yet, but I've read quite a bit about it.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

I too would love a TTS, and likely no matter what I end up with, if the TTS (or TT-RS) comes with a manual, I'll probably be tempted to trade...


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## seymore15074 (Jul 23, 2007)

jsausley said:


> So my options are:
> 
> 1) Buy a current S5 once the 2016 becomes available, which will be end-of-summer or early Fall. The S5 is gorgeous, comes with a manual transmission and is at the end of its model run so there may be incentives and value packages available, plus the platform has been well sorted by this point. Issues with the S5: Weight and power. The S3 is faster for nearly $10,000 less...
> 
> ...


I would cancel #1 immediately and go for #2. I'm struggling with a similar situation but I'm trying to wait a bit before pouncing so that I can justify getting all of the options I want.

The S3 makes everything else feel dated, IMO. I am really into the Prestige... I drove a 2014 A6 Prestige (loaner) for about a month this winter and I must admit that it was pretty cozy in there compared to a 2007 S6.

My S6 has been at the dealer more than I've had it on average in the last 3 months. I'm going to replace it soon.

I wanted a third pedal this time--the S6's shifts are so slow it drives me nuts! The S3 was fun to test drive. In comparison, it felt like a dog from a stop but it woke up quick and had a nice responsive feel. (A quick APR tune would be a must, of course!) The shifts were fast enough that I didn't mind it--which isn't what I expected.

I started looking at the S3 because of the price. I don't know who can afford an S6 new! With my recent maintenance issues, I'm going new this time round. There's a pretty hot looking S5 in the local showroom, so I had the same temptation: S3 vs. S5. I was also considering an S4, primarily just to get the manual.


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## [email protected] (Oct 11, 2013)

S3 is a fun car for sure. Honestly with how well they respond to mods, my vote has to go to the S3

Here is our dyno and 0-60 video with just installing a plug and play module and intake to try and sway you 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8E-Q2_Ri-k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06V5wLUFccc


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## Randle P. McMurphy (Jan 23, 2015)

I was on the fence with waiting for the B9 S4, but recently pulled the trigger on a new 2015 S4 since the timing worked better and got an amazing deal. 

Have you driven either the S3 or S5? The Internet is a great place to do research, but get your butt in a seat. I was a little hesitant to buy the B8.5 S4 because a lot of people did not like the interior, dated tech, etc., but it felt like a luxurious, modern NASA spaceship compared to my B6. I don't need a lot of gadgets and gizmos, and just listen to the radio when I drive, so it didn't take a lot to blow my hair back. 

This won't help your decision, but I asked a couple people at the dealer what they thought about the S3 vs S4, and both independently said they definitely preferred the S4. I know, they could have been trying to prevent buyer's remorse since I had just purchased the S4, but that really did not seem to be the case. 

Good luck!


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Randle P. McMurphy said:


> I was on the fence with waiting for the B9 S4, but recently pulled the trigger on a new 2015 S4 since the timing worked better and got an amazing deal.
> 
> Have you driven either the S3 or S5? The Internet is a great place to do research, but get your butt in a seat. I was a little hesitant to buy the B8.5 S4 because a lot of people did not like the interior, dated tech, etc., but it felt like a luxurious, modern NASA spaceship compared to my B6. I don't need a lot of gadgets and gizmos, and just listen to the radio when I drive, so it didn't take a lot to blow my hair back.
> 
> ...


I've driven the S5 but not the S3. The S5 I drove was a barebones base car but it was a manual, so I wanted to drive it. I'd love to do a second drive because the first one was kind of short, but I've been so busy I haven't been able to get up there.

It's good to know, and I like the best and newest thing just as much as anyone else, but I actually like the styling of the S4/S5 interior better than the S3. I don't like the S3's pop-up nav (it's heinous in my opinion) and I feel like the dash looks base or barren. I do like the S3's door panels, the gauge setup and the steering wheel, but the wheel is the same regardless of which car you get.


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## seymore15074 (Jul 23, 2007)

jsausley said:


> I've driven the S5 but not the S3. The S5 I drove was a barebones base car but it was a manual, so I wanted to drive it. I'd love to do a second drive because the first one was kind of short, but I've been so busy I haven't been able to get up there.
> 
> It's good to know, and I like the best and newest thing just as much as anyone else, but I actually like the styling of the S4/S5 interior better than the S3. I don't like the S3's pop-up nav (it's heinous in my opinion) and I feel like the dash looks base or barren. I do like the S3's door panels, the gauge setup and the steering wheel, but the wheel is the same regardless of which car you get.


Wow, I'm just the opposite. The thing I like the most about the S3 is the clean dash design and that you can hide the screen. It looks like it has a few Lambo design cues in there, like the switches across the middle of the dash above the climate controls.

As a matter of fact, I really like the climate controls. They light up pretty neat and are easy to work. In my S6, you have to push a button to select fan and then use the knob to turn it down--that can be irritating when you just want to kick up or down the fan. The knob should just be there ready to go like it is in the middle of the S3.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

seymore15074 said:


> Wow, I'm just the opposite. The thing I like the most about the S3 is the clean dash design and that you can hide the screen. It looks like it has a few Lambo design cues in there, like the switches across the middle of the dash above the climate controls.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I really like the climate controls. They light up pretty neat and are easy to work. In my S6, you have to push a button to select fan and then use the knob to turn it down--that can be irritating when you just want to kick up or down the fan. The knob should just be there ready to go like it is in the middle of the S3.


As I haven't driven an S3, I can't really comment on the ergonomics, I'm just talking about the appearance of the interior. To me the dash looks like it's "missing something." I like minimalist design but I wish there was at least a small screen or something to display relevant information so I can keep the pop-up screen lowered, I think it looks really cheap when deployed and I don't like the fact that it's so close to the windscreen and kind of out in front of you. I know a lot of info is on the MFD, but I'd prefer if it was in the middle. Just my thinking. 

What's strange is that I love the dash of the TT/TTS. But to me it makes sense in a driver-focused 2-seater. The S3 is a sedan, and I feel like it deserves a little more passenger-oriented package. 

I also like that the S5 gets a DVD option -- does the S3 have that?

How about CarPlay? Will the 2016 S3s come with that? (I know order guides aren't out yet.) The 2016 Golf R will have CarPlay and that seems like a great technology, so it'd be cool to have it on an Audi as well. Doesn't make a lot of sense for VW to get it, but not Audi. :laugh:


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## Randle P. McMurphy (Jan 23, 2015)

jsausley said:


> I've driven the S5 but not the S3. The S5 I drove was a barebones base car but it was a manual, so I wanted to drive it. I'd love to do a second drive because the first one was kind of short, but I've been so busy I haven't been able to get up there.
> 
> It's good to know, and I like the best and newest thing just as much as anyone else, but I actually like the styling of the S4/S5 interior better than the S3. I don't like the S3's pop-up nav (it's heinous in my opinion) and I feel like the dash looks base or barren. I do like the S3's door panels, the gauge setup and the steering wheel, but the wheel is the same regardless of which car you get.


A lot of it is just a matter of personal preference and where you are in life. The S3 probably would have been my choice if I were single and not expecting a kid; those extra inches of space in the S4 will make my life easier.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

seymore15074 said:


> Wow, I'm just the opposite. The thing I like the most about the S3 is the clean dash design and that you can hide the screen. It looks like it has a few Lambo design cues in there, like the switches across the middle of the dash above the climate controls.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I really like the climate controls. They light up pretty neat and are easy to work. In my S6, you have to push a button to select fan and then use the knob to turn it down--that can be irritating when you just want to kick up or down the fan. The knob should just be there ready to go like it is in the middle of the S3.


Unrelated, but that was one of the complaints I recently read about the Infinti Q50. Even the HVAC controls are in the infotainment system, so until it finishes booting/loading, you can't adjust them at all.

I HATE the march toward touchscreen everything. Touchscreens can't be navigated by blind touch. Simple vehicle controls should be operable by touch, so the driver can focus on the road. REQUIRING a driver to look to manipulate even simple controls is a horrible design decision.</rant>



jsausley said:


> As I haven't driven an S3, I can't really comment on the ergonomics, I'm just talking about the appearance of the interior. To me the dash looks like it's "missing something." I like minimalist design but I wish there was at least a small screen or something to display relevant information so I can keep the pop-up screen lowered, I think it looks really cheap when deployed and I don't like the fact that it's so close to the windscreen and kind of out in front of you. I know a lot of info is on the MFD, but I'd prefer if it was in the middle. Just my thinking.
> 
> What's strange is that I love the dash of the TT/TTS. But to me it makes sense in a driver-focused 2-seater. The S3 is a sedan, and I feel like it deserves a little more passenger-oriented package.
> 
> ...


If you needed the screen up to run ANY of features, I'd hate it.. but the fact that you can basically control everything from MFD (and the MFD is a good upgrade even from the one in my 2013 GLI) means I can hide the damn screen when I want... but really, for things like navigation, that location is about perfect. That's where I always put my phone (or just a bit lower, basically in front of the vents) in cars as well, and I primarily use it for nav. It's small enough and low enough to not really impact general visibility (well, for me anyways, but I am 6'1"), but when you really want a good view (Track driving/etc), or just don't want to see it, you can hide it.


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## Randle P. McMurphy (Jan 23, 2015)

araemo said:


> Unrelated, but that was one of the complaints I recently read about the Infinti Q50. Even the HVAC controls are in the infotainment system, so until it finishes booting/loading, you can't adjust them at all.
> 
> I HATE the march toward touchscreen everything. Touchscreens can't be navigated by blind touch. Simple vehicle controls should be operable by touch, so the driver can focus on the road. REQUIRING a driver to look to manipulate even simple controls is a horrible design decision.


I must be old because I completely agree. Drivers should not be required to stare at a screen for five seconds to turn the heat down while driving on the highway. 

I used to assume that people swerving on the road were drunk, now I assume they are texting or playing with their "infotainment" system.


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## seymore15074 (Jul 23, 2007)

The last rent I had was some Toyota with a big screen in the dash. I said, "Does this thing have navigation or is that screen just there for looks?" The guy says, "It's pretty much just there for looks!"

For some reason, I keep thinking of the Golf R dash being busy (perhaps just the R vs. S3 thread on the brain) but I haven't used it so I can't say for sure. It looks like the touch screen is the center of attention in that thing and I hope it doesn't push everything into the screen...


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

S5 hands down all the way, unless they bring over the RS3 with the 6MT.

Hell I turned down the S3 versus an A5 due to the transmission, and don't regret it one bit.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

jsausley said:


> I also like that the S5 gets a DVD option -- does the S3 have that?


Ummm yes.



jsausley said:


> How about CarPlay? Will the 2016 S3s come with that? (I know order guides aren't out yet.) The 2016 Golf R will have CarPlay and that seems like a great technology, so it'd be cool to have it on an Audi as well. Doesn't make a lot of sense for VW to get it, but not Audi. :laugh:


Not everyone wants an Apple product in their car. I can only imagine the nightmares trying to get non apple hardware to connect. I'm never going to get an iPhone. And Audi or any other car make isn't going to force me into getting one.


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## Tony_S3 (Sep 9, 2014)

IDK. The current S5 just look dated to me. I cannot imagine getting a new one now. Not after the same design has already been on the road for 8 years. With the S5, In 2 years you'll be driving a new car that has a design that goes back 10 years.


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## araemo (Dec 9, 2012)

Tony_S3 said:


> Not everyone wants an Apple product in their car. I can only imagine the nightmares trying to get non apple hardware to connect. I'm never going to get an iPhone. And Audi or any other car make isn't going to force me into getting one.


Wow, bitter much? Carplay is just another option like the ipod integration there now. I believe that when VW adds carplay to the Golf/GTIs, they're also adding Android Auto... which makes a lot of sense since they're both basically the same system: Send graphics from the phone to the infotainment screen, and receive touch events from the screen back to the phone. (and handle audio integration between the two systems)

I'm really hoping that the Audis get both in MY2016, and it isn't just a post-facelift feature. If it is post-facelift, I really hope I can retrofit it into the 2016 I'm planning on buying. And yes, I'm referring to Android Auto, not CarPlay


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## Randle P. McMurphy (Jan 23, 2015)

Tony_S3 said:


> IDK. The current S5 just look dated to me. I cannot imagine getting a new one now. Not after the same design has already been on the road for 8 years. With the S5, In 2 years you'll be driving a new car that has a design that goes back 10 years.


The S5 looks like it either needs to be 6" shorter or have two extra doors.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Randle P. McMurphy said:


> The S5 looks like it either needs to be 6" shorter or have two extra doors.


Disagree. To me it has the best coupe profile of any car on the market.


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## Randle P. McMurphy (Jan 23, 2015)

jsausley said:


> Disagree. To me it has the best coupe profile of any car on the market.


Best coupe profile on the market? Ferrari, Porsche, M4... My list is pretty long before the S5 shows up  

Don't get me wrong, it is not a _bad looking_ car, just not quite right for me.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Randle P. McMurphy said:


> Best coupe profile on the market? Ferrari, Porsche, M4... My list is pretty long before the S5 shows up
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it is not a _bad looking_ car, just not quite right for me.


Okay, best 4-seater coupe profile.. not fair to compare it to a Ferrari, McLaren, etc. Though I do like the design better than Porsche -- they've never done all that much for me. The M4 though... ugh. Ugly car. All current BMWs are.


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## misaka (Feb 8, 2013)

I know you came from a mk6, and I've come from a mk6 GTI to an A3. And I have to say they did alot of things better on the new GTI compared to my A3 in terms of interior, especially if you don't like how the NAV looks on the A3/S3. I think if MT is really important to you, Go for the S5. The S3 is a Golf R without the utility and a bit more insulation . Granted you get the 4 rings on it and better dealer treatment. It might be worth sitting inside and testing one out just to be sure.


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## Randle P. McMurphy (Jan 23, 2015)

jsausley said:


> Okay, best 4-seater coupe profile.. not fair to compare it to a Ferrari, McLaren, etc. Though I do like the design better than Porsche -- they've never done all that much for me. The M4 though... ugh. Ugly car. All current BMWs are.


Dude, if you are going to do a coupe, do it right and get a two-seater Cayman GT4! Screw the kids, I am going to the track


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Randle P. McMurphy said:


> Dude, if you are going to do a coupe, do it right and get a two-seater Cayman GT4! Screw the kids, I am going to the track


That's over $100k when optioned.. I agree, it's an amazing car, but not even close to being comparable. 

If I reached that high, I might as well stretch a little more and get an R8.


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## seymore15074 (Jul 23, 2007)

misaka said:


> I know you came from a mk6, and I've come from a mk6 GTI to an A3. And I have to say they did alot of things better on the new GTI compared to my A3 in terms of interior, especially if you don't like how the NAV looks on the A3/S3. I think if MT is really important to you, Go for the S5. The S3 is a Golf R without the utility and a bit more insulation . Granted you get the 4 rings on it and *better dealer treatment*. It might be worth sitting inside and testing one out just to be sure.


You know, I have had a way better experience with Audi service than I ever had with VW service. I some times wonder if an S6 puts you in some kind of "kiss their ass" category to try to retain your business! I wonder if it'd be the same with an A3.


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