# How to change your cam follower inside. (Now with debate about failures and their cause.)



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*how to change your cam follower inside*

first remove your stock engine cover if you have one
next unscrew the black plastic cap on the bleeder valve








depress the bleeder valve to let out the pressure








use a 13mm to unscrew the bleeder valve








undo top connector








undo side connector








undo the metal line with a 17mm wrench but leave the rubber line attached it makes it easier to reinstall this way








remove the 3 bolts holding the fp in they are T27 bolts








pull the fuel pump back exposing the cam follower








use your finger to pull out the cam follower it will slide out nice and easy








finally examine your cam follower as you can see mine needs to be replaced it is in some pretty bad shape, also inspect the cam shaft for damage while you have the cam follower out


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Is that the KMD pump in the picture?
Dave


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_Is that the KMD pump in the picture?
Dave

i am not out to give any company a bad name so all i am saying about the pump is it is *not* A KMD or an APR pump







make your own assumption about whose pump it is, i am not out to discredit any company


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## SleepinGLI (Jan 20, 2008)

Does anyone have the size of the torx (i think its a torx) bit needed if you dont have the rubber return line? Mine is metal and the only thing im stuck on. Cant really see and the fit is pretty tight so i dont wanna strip the bolt out trying to get it


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

You could tell by the wear mark in the follower it was an AT. KMD hasn't been out that long to cause that kind of wear.
Did you have to pull any fuses? Run the car out of fuel first before you did this? I'll be pulling my follower soon to replace it and inspect everything.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (SleepinGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SleepinGLI* »_Does anyone have the size of the torx (i think its a torx) bit needed if you dont have the rubber return line? Mine is metal and the only thing im stuck on. Cant really see and the fit is pretty tight so i dont wanna strip the bolt out trying to get it

i don't know because my car didn't have 2 metal lines but i assume it would be a 12point not a standard torx


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_You could tell by the wear mark in the follower it was an AT. KMD hasn't been out that long to cause that kind of wear.
Did you have to pull any fuses? Run the car out of fuel first before you did this? I'll be pulling my follower soon to replace it and inspect everything.

no pulling any fuses, and don't run the car out of fuel thats what the bleeder valve is for...just follow my steps and it will be fine


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_You could tell by the wear mark in the follower it was an AT. KMD hasn't been out that long to cause that kind of wear.


Wetwagen originally posted that the autotech and KMD were the exact same in dimension and design, but has since then deleted that post and edited subsequent posts on the topic.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...14331
Dave


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
i am not out to give any company a bad name so all i am saying about the pump is it is *not* A KMD or an APR pump







make your own assumption about whose pump it is, i am not out to discredit any company

It is only quite disturbing that all the wear is localized to the plunger end, unlike other follower wear pics i've seen posted. 
How did the cam look? Did it have the same localized wear on the middle of the lobe?
Dave


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

thanks for the write up. this should be in the diy section. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (SleepinGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SleepinGLI* »_Does anyone have the size of the torx (i think its a torx) bit needed if you dont have the rubber return line? Mine is metal and the only thing im stuck on. Cant really see and the fit is pretty tight so i dont wanna strip the bolt out trying to get it

Here's some text to go along with JC's pics....
http://www.goapr.com/VW/suppor...n.pdf


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
It is only quite disturbing that all the wear is localized to the plunger end, unlike other follower wear pics i've seen posted. 
How did the cam look? Did it have the same localized wear on the middle of the lobe?
Dave

their are some very very very light scratchs on the center of the cam lobe, which i am not pleased about, it will be fine but if i had let it go any longer it would have lead to a failure


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_You could tell by the wear mark in the follower it was an AT. 

Actually from my research stock and even ones using stock pieces show an identical wear pattern in the center inside so looking at that does not give anything away.
The wear on the outside is actually something I have never once seen yet from any pump.
There are a number of things to look into now. Revs possibly an issue? Did it stick and not turn properly causing wear at one point and one point only? Was it floating for some reason?


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## b00stin_02917 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

thanks jc.. your the man ill be doing this tommarow to check mine out.. hopfully all is well in the land of cam followers on my end


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (b00stin_02917)*

WTF.... sometimes cars make me sick. I'm going to take up gardening for a hobby


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (Audi4u)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Audi4u* »_WTF.... sometimes cars make me sick. I'm going to take up gardening for a hobby
















x2...I have been waiting months for GIAC to release their Upgraded Fuel Pump software, but not going that route now (for the time being). Out of curiosity...JC, didn't you just replace this less than 3 months ago? The follower in the pic looks pretty new...except for the near hole in the middle.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

it was done more than 3 months ago but it doesn't have to many miles on it but the miles it does have, have bin very very very hard miles


_Modified by [email protected] at 12:44 PM 3-23-2008_


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## twinkers (Nov 22, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Approx how much is a new follower?


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

nice DIY


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (twinkers)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twinkers* »_Approx how much is a new follower?

The part number listed in the TSB to be used for replacement is 06D-109-309-C. $56.86 plus shipping from Worldimpex.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (twinkers)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twinkers* »_Approx how much is a new follower?

you will find it at your local dealer for like 60 bucks plus tax


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## twinkers (Nov 22, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

cool thanks. Nice DIY btw.


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## SleepinGLI (Jan 20, 2008)

Well i just found out the banjo bolt is a 12 point like mentioned earlier...
I was wondering when i'd get to use that expensive matco 12-point set i bought 2 years ago


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (WetWagen)*

i already answer that above and i said it is not a KMD pump and it is not an APR pump but i don't want to throw the name out their because i don't wants to discredit any company becaused i have not found the reason for the failure yet, i don't know if it is a pump failure or a follower failure yet...i need to look deeper


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

all hpfp aftermarket pumps i've seen cause cf failure as well so i think is probably all hpfp problem


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## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*

how much is a cam follower?
it doesn't seem too hard to replace, its just a pita but i'd be willing to do it every 10k miles if it doesn't cost more than $50
flame suit on (i'm a complete noob)


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

i've seen failures with 3000miles aswell so it has to do with driving style as well, if you raping the car all the time you must check sooner


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

as stated, they're about $60 from the dealer, but I'm talking to JC about something right now. I wouldn't spend your cash yet...


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i already answer that above and i said it is not a KMD pump and it is not an APR pump but i don't want to throw the name out their because i don't wants to discredit any company becaused i have not found the reason for the failure yet, i don't know if it is a pump failure or a follower failure yet...i need to look deeper

That's not what I was talking about


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_all hpfp aftermarket pumps i've seen cause cf failure as well so i think is probably all hpfp problem

ALL pumps cause failure? All of the failures are HPFP problems?

This isn't just a response to the above - I don't think I have ever seen so much speculation and misinformation and just plain freakin' voodoo about some simple engine parts. We're talking about a cam-actuated fuel pump and a camshaft - neither of which are very complex. 
Every time someone opens their mouth something completely crazy comes out. It's either repeating what they heard somewhere else (which is probably also incorrect) that has no factual information, just speculation. Occasionally some solid facts come out, but it mostly sounds like some crazy and unbelievable tale that was made up in the shower that morning.
I don't claim to know everything about the fuel pumps and the cam failures and software requesting 130bar vs. 110bar, but I really wish that somebody privy to all of this could lay everything out on the table for everyone straight and honestly instead of making a sales pitch, side-stepping questions or saying things that just don't make sense.


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
ALL pumps cause failure? All of the failures are HPFP problems?

This isn't just a response to the above - I don't think I have ever seen so much speculation and misinformation and just plain freakin' voodoo about some simple engine parts. We're talking about a cam-actuated fuel pump and a camshaft - neither of which are very complex. 
Every time someone opens their mouth something completely crazy comes out. It's either repeating what they heard somewhere else (which is probably also incorrect) that has no factual information, just speculation. Occasionally some solid facts come out, but it mostly sounds like some crazy and unbelievable tale that was made up in the shower that morning.
I don't claim to know everything about the fuel pumps and the cam failures and software requesting 130bar vs. 110bar, but I really wish that somebody privy to all of this could lay everything out on the table for everyone straight and honestly instead of making a sales pitch, side-stepping questions or saying things that just don't make sense.

9 to 10 problems i know so far are related to aftermarket hpfp and there are case with B revision of camshaft, If you dont check frequently cam follower and have aftermarket hpfp then you are pushing your luck


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

Added to FAQ


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## Chris[email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
ALL pumps cause failure? All of the failures are HPFP problems?


Yes every aftermarket pump has been responsible at some point in time for the failure of a cam follower.
People are going 40K miles with no problems add a pump follower fails in less then 10k miles.
People go 5K miles add a pump follower fails in less then 10K miles.
People go 20K miles add a pump follower fails i less then 10K miles.
Do we see a common factor here?


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yes every aftermarket pump has been responsible at some point in time for the failure of a cam follower.
People are going 40K miles with no problems add a pump follower fails in less then 10k miles.
People go 5K miles add a pump follower fails in less then 10K miles.
People go 20K miles add a pump follower fails i less then 10K miles.
Do we see a common factor here?

so your saying it's a bad camshaft right


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## Raring 2 Go (May 22, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Is the cam follower issue for all BPY engines are were there revisions along the way? I'm sure this has been asked in some thread or is an otherwise stupid question so pardon my ignorance.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Raring 2 Go)*

yes


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Raring 2 Go)*

the part number did superscede once I believe but I have no idea what changed as there are no markings on them to know if one is old or new when removing them.


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## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

Very cool, looks easy enough to do for inspection. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_Very cool, looks easy enough to do for inspection. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

thats what i am trying to show people, mod your car don't be scared just spend 15 minutes every once in a while and check things out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

JC PM me back!


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

i did already go in and check you pm's


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

thanks! safari for pc is nice and quick, but blocks pop ups and doesnt tell you!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

With all this said, shouldn't the companies fabricating these aftermarket pumps look into some way of increasing the longevity of these followers? If you purchase any upgraded pump, it looks as if you are going to have to add at least $120 (2 followers/year) worth of maintenance per year...correct me if I'm wrong.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So basically the point of this thread is to tell everyone that bought an aftermarket fuel pump that no matter what eventually the pump will cause the follower to fail, grind down the cam and cause major damage if not checked and possibly replaced every 5k miles.
Well I guess AT, KMD, and APR should just stop making pumps now cause there's no point to putting something out there that will damage people's cars if they dont know enough about them to pull the pump and check/replace every 5k.
I'm sorry, I just don't buy all of this. If the issue was THAT bad, no aftermarket pump would survive this market.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

no the point of this thread was to show how to change the follower when the times come even if you have a stock pump you should be checking it


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yes every aftermarket pump has been responsible at some point in time for the failure of a cam follower.
People are going 40K miles with no problems add a pump follower fails in less then 10k miles.
People go 5K miles add a pump follower fails in less then 10K miles.
People go 20K miles add a pump follower fails i less then 10K miles.
Do we see a common factor here?

I disagree. My pump has not been responsible for failure of my cam follower, so how can you say that EVERY ONE has been responsible? This is exactly the type things that people are saying that are just plain WRONG. You don't know how many fuel pumps are operating just fine and have never had a failure - and maybe never will. I don't get how everyone can possibly feel honest when they make such a generalized claim like that.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (WetWagen)*

what did yours look like can you post pics?


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
I disagree. My pump has not been responsible for failure of my cam follower, so how can you say that EVERY ONE has been responsible? This is exactly the type things that people are saying that are just plain WRONG. You don't know how many fuel pumps are operating just fine and have never had a failure - and maybe never will. I don't get how everyone can possibly feel honest when they make such a generalized claim like that.

You can't tell me I am wrong when I am one of the few actually researching what is going on. Also you can't tell me I am wrong when you twisting what I am saying to mean what you want.
When I said every pump has caused a failure, i was referring to manufactures of pumps, not every single pump sold.
Look at all the facts before you go on a rant telling people they are wrong. What kind of research are you doing to see how many are failing and how the failures are occuring.
FACT is no one had problems with followers wearing through on the B revision cam until they started putting in aftermarket fuel pumps. Now they are failing left and right. Not everyone is posting or talking publicly about it either. (note obviously there may have been some here or there but they would have been related to random defects)
FACT is all the pumps that have been on the market for some time have had failures of the cam follower on B revision cams.
People are trying to blame brand X or Y but they all are having issues. NOT ON EVERY CAR THEY HAVE BEEN ON (just to make it clear), but all companies are having problems, since the common factor is replacing the pump its pretty easy to figure out.
I'm glad you haven't had a failure yet, but how many miles do you have on your aftermarket pump? How many of those miles have been hard driven miles with performance software on it? Also how do you know its not about to wear through? do you check it on a regular basis? You are getting upset with making making "assumptions" but at the same time you are doing the same.

Would you prefer everyone just ignores the issue? If it wears through and damages your cam you are talking about hundreds of dollars in parts, probably over 2K repair bill if its just a simple came and pump replacement if you need to pay someone to do it. Which really even most of the DIY people here would still be paying someone has the procedure is not easy at all.


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

please do. I need some indepth pics.


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You can't tell me I am wrong when I am one of the few actually researching what is going on. Also you can't tell me I am wrong when you twisting what I am saying to mean what you want.
When I said every pump has caused a failure, i was referring to manufactures of pumps, not every single pump sold.


Well you should have said that in the first place. You were very ambiguous and it appeared that you were including every single pump made and sold in your statement.


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm glad you haven't had a failure yet, but how many miles do you have on your aftermarket pump? How many of those miles have been hard driven miles with performance software on it? Also how do you know its not about to wear through? do you check it on a regular basis? You are getting upset with making making "assumptions" but at the same time you are doing the same.

Would you prefer everyone just ignores the issue? If it wears through and damages your cam you are talking about hundreds of dollars in parts, probably over 2K repair bill if its just a simple came and pump replacement if you need to pay someone to do it. Which really even most of the DIY people here would still be paying someone has the procedure is not easy at all.

I don't have many miles, close to 1000. This weekend I put on 370 of those miles running Sunoco 104 with the APR 100 FP software and every one of those miles was 4,000rpm and above. The follower shows no additional wear compared to when when I pulled the OEM pump. I have checked it a few times now. The same follower has been used with all three of my fuel pumps and has not changed a bit in its appearance. The engine has 32,100 miles and has the "A" revision cam.


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## Raring 2 Go (May 22, 2000)

*Re: (WetWagen)*

It did seem that way. Statement clarified. 
Now back on topic please.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
Well you should have said that in the first place. You were very ambiguous and it appeared that you were including every single pump made and sold in your statement. 

I've mentioned this more times then I can count in the last week in numerous threads, I really don't feel the need to retype everything I've ever posted within each post.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_well. I have a lead to better cam followers for cheaper. JC and I are PMing rapidly. I'll have an update with cost by the evening.

He metioned briefly some of the details.
What you need to remember is that it can't be any thicker. Any change in dimesions could mean it binds or goes sideways. If the tip is not the same thickness you will be affecting the overall travel of the piston.
Unless its 100% identical in every dimension it can't be used.


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
He metioned briefly some of the details.
What you need to remember is that it can't be any thicker. Any change in dimesions could mean it binds or goes sideways. If the tip is not the same thickness you will be affecting the overall travel of the piston.
Unless its 100% identical in every dimension it can't be used.

So what would change to make it better than OEM? Grade of steel? Surface hardening? A different coating? Different cam contact shape?


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Wetwagen originally posted that the autotech and KMD were the exact same in dimension and design, but has since then deleted that post and edited subsequent posts on the topic.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...14331
Dave

I did because I want to get more mileage and logs on each of the pumps before I post information like that.


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

*Re: (Raring 2 Go)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Raring 2 Go* »_We get the message now. The topic is DIY for checking or changing your cam follower. 

roger that. back onto how awesome this DIY is.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
So what would change to make it better than OEM? Grade of steel? Surface hardening? A different coating? Different cam contact shape?

This is for people manufacturing pumps to work on, I'm doing research on the failures to see if we can figure out what is going on to then find the best way to fix it. Right now no one wants to believe there is even a problem and its cooler to point fingers and let peoples cars break then look into the facts.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_
i agree and disagree. I'll be sure to do my homework and send one to JC to try out before doing something in mass quantities.

If its even 1mm thicker it will reduce the travel by 1mm. Everytime you reduce the travel even the slightest bit you go backwards on the increased volume you gained with the larger diameter piston.


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## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
So what would change to make it better than OEM? Grade of steel? Surface hardening? A different coating? Different cam contact shape?

There seems to be a good point here. This was my first thought... in my rubber/gasketing business, when ever there's a problem between two surfaces that move in relation to each other, the first thing we look at is the medium between those two surfaces. Sometimes, the easiest thing to do without employing an entire redesign, is to just change the material being compressed and agitated... i.e., maybe just a different steel would do the trick, or maybe even just changing the thickness.
If you look carefully at the follower picture on the inside, the indentations look like punch marks, meaning that the pump shaft is literally bouncing against the follower. Something tells me that if you take out that slop, or make a follower that can take the beating, then you might have something.... that's just me, and I only know rubber & plastics.










_Modified by Kid Hobo at 9:56 AM 3-24-2008_


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_
If you look carefully at the follower picture on the inside, the indentations look like punch marks, meaning that the pump shaft is literally bouncing against the follower. 


Actually most stock ones and pumps running stock type tips will have an almost identical mark.
Whats also odd is most followers that I have seen fail have been concave on the outside. Even the ones that have cracked and failed completely the missing piece is bent inwards. However the back side is always carved in a little almost as if it was bouncing like you said.
So basically front and back down match.


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

sheesh, you guys...don't fall into the trap i did.
there is no "winning" a semantics war.
its way too easy to just keep taking shots at each other.
chris, i understood what you meant. i've been reading yours and other ppl's posts and i clearly understood what you where saying.
...even if the "exact wording" could have been misinterpreted.
wetwagon, i can totally understand how you read his post. if you only read this one post, you would easily "mis" understand what he meant...it wasn't worded clearly for the context.
however, IMO you seemed to take it a bit defensively. you've been around long enough to know what happens when a post gets misinterpreted and a reply seems defensive..
nuff said.
it seems you both are looking for the same answers. as am i.
now that uncle 2zzge has said his piece, i'll post on topic.
i have KMD's kit installed with 500 miles on the clock so far. revo stg2.
i don't have a pic (and won't post one because some will use it out of context--neither of you two--but there are some on the board that would rather do harm than good)
so i don't have pics,
but i will mention that the while i didn't notice any cam wear, i DID notice wear on the follower.
the coating has worn off in a sort of 'square' pattern and there is some light scaring/scratches on the cam side of the follower. no wear on the pump side.
this is at ~20k miles.
i'm going to run this for 1500 miles and check it again. (unless something occurrs to warrant an earlier check-see)
peace


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## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
So basically front and back down match.

Makes sense. So the options are in no particular order:
* change the follower
* change the cam lobe
* change the pump shaft contact point
Good luck, I don't envy you in having to figure this out! I'm working on my own little projects.








Cheers, 
KH


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (2zzge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2zzge* »_
so i don't have pics,
but i will mention that the while i didn't notice any cam wear, i DID notice wear on the follower.
the coating has worn off in a sort of 'square' pattern and there is some light scaring/scratches on the cam side of the follower. no wear on the pump side.
this is at ~20k miles.


That sounds exactly like the picture shown in the TSB and would appear to be "normal" wear as indicated by VW (meaning that's how it wears as it fails to VW's understanding). The odd thing was the circular marking JC showed. I wonder if it's possible that's how the wear starts and as it progresses it shows a "square" mark as it is work somewhat evenly by the cam lobe.


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*

i was thinking the same thing...early signs of wear. (20k on the stock pump w/stg2 revo)
it might be "normal" and "ok" for VW, but if it gets any worse i'll be sure to post up.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_
There seems to be a good point here. This was my first thought... in my rubber/gasketing business, when ever there's a problem between two surfaces that move in relation to each other, the first thing we look at is the medium between those two surfaces. Sometimes, the easiest thing to do without employing an entire redesign, is to just change the material being compressed and agitated... i.e., maybe just a different steel would do the trick, or maybe even just changing the thickness.
If you look carefully at the follower picture on the inside, the indentations look like punch marks, meaning that the pump shaft is literally bouncing against the follower. Something tells me that if you take out that slop, or make a follower that can take the beating, then you might have something.... that's just me, and I only know rubber & plastics.









_Modified by Kid Hobo at 9:56 AM 3-24-2008_
It looks like you're right as far as "taking out the slop", if there is any. As said before, JC's car has seen some high RPM, the spring rate on stat pump may not be sufficient to avoid floating the pump shaft a little at high RPMs. That could lead to it smacking the follower. I can't really remember but I don't think AT changes the OEM spring.
As for "making a follower that can take a beating", there's not a whole lotta room to do that without changing a few things around. You can't make the whole follower harder cuz then it can wear the cam lobe, and you can't make it thicker without changing the operation of the pump. It seems like the best thing would be if the end of the pump shaft that contacts the follower were wider. Being as small as it is it wants to punch a hole in the follower. Increasing the footprint would easily cut down on wear on the backside of the follower. Obviously that means redesigning the pump tho. Looks like the OEM pump and APR pump already have thicker shaft ends than the AT pump


_Modified by blackvento36 at 1:53 PM 3-24-2008_


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
It seems like the best thing would be if the end of the pump shaft that contacts the follower were wider. Being as small as it is it wants to punch a hole in the follower. Increasing the footprint would easily cut down on wear on the backside of the follower. Obviously that means redesigning the pump tho.

Agreed...my thinking as well...but, I'm sure other issues would arise from widening the surface area contact.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Agreed...my thinking as well...but, I'm sure other issues would arise from widening the surface area contact.









My guess is the wider the area, the greater the chance of side loading the piston....


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_That sounds exactly like the picture shown in the TSB and would appear to be "normal" wear as indicated by VW (meaning that's how it wears as it fails to VW's understanding).

I also had the black square on my old follower.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Agreed...my thinking as well...but, I'm sure other issues would arise from widening the surface area contact.










_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
My guess is the wider the area, the greater the chance of side loading the piston....

Judging by these pics posted in another thread by Arin, the stock and APR shaft contact areas are already wider than the AT pump's
AT pump








stock, which he says is identical to APR


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

the picture of the stock/APR pump is deciving because the whole piece does not touch the cam follower, just the extended tip in the center does


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_the picture of the stock/APR pump is deciving because the whole piece does not touch the cam follower, just the extended tip in the center does
Edit: seems you're right, spongebob sent me a closeup pic showing that.










_Modified by blackvento36 at 4:11 PM 3-24-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Edit: seems you're right, spongebob sent me a closeup pic showing that.

_Modified by blackvento36 at 2:36 PM 3-24-2008_

Yes the tip is the same with all the pumps.The stock and APR just "seem"wider, but that is not the case.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Yes the tip is the same with all the pumps.The stock and APR just "seem"wider, but that is not the case.

Stock/apr has a gradual slope. the flat main contact area at the top is not the full width of the circle.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Yes the tip is the same with all the pumps.The stock and APR just "seem"wider, but that is not the case.
I see that now, but the shorter slope and wider base make it seem alot less likely that the stock tip would punch all the way through the follower
All this talk about fuel fump/cam lobe/follower problems made me finally decide to check mine since I have an early 06 GLI. Thankfully after 30k miles I see almost no wear tho I do have a stock pump.
Cam Lobe








Follower cam surface








follower pump piston surface








piston tip








My FP was a little harder to pill out than the directions in this post suggest. I didn't see any rubber lines. The bottom banjo bolt was connected by hard-line so I had to pull it off which was a pain in the ass cuz of where it is. It's an M8 triple square bolt and I have an F pump if that matters


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

that cam doesn't look to healthy to me


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_that cam doesn't look to healthy to me









Cam is fine, those aren't scratches. They are deposits left on the cam from the follower being softer, I could scratch them off with my fingernail.



_Modified by blackvento36 at 5:25 PM 3-24-2008_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Edit: seems you're right, spongebob sent me a closeup pic showing that.









_Modified by blackvento36 at 4:11 PM 3-24-2008_

Except the Autotech tip is concave whereas the APR tip is flat, thereby the AT has much less contact patch.
This observation is supported by the wear shown on JC's follower. Note that there is the greatest amount of wear on the outer contact surfaces tapering down to almost zero wear in the center.








Dave


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (crew219)*

That's pretty observant, seems you're right


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Here is the inside of mine.
Please ignore the low quality shot. I really had to push the ISO and shadow brightness to show it well.








It really looks like the OEM pump head is pivoting around in there...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*

Hmmm...
I must say Arin, your pics say more than you think...
How is it possible for 2 rigid surfaces (inside of follower/top of the piston contact) to interact like that, when supposedly ONLY the tip of the piston should leave a mark, and not the (piston+spring holder).
The pics above actually indicate the force acting on the follower centrally DEFORMS it, to the point where the spring support actually TOUCHES the follower, and that shouldn't be happening, since there is a fair amount of distance between the tip of the piston and the spring holder ring....
Not good i must say...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Whats interesting is I cannot feel or actually see/tell if there is any indentation at all. I can see where it appears to rest however since this is the only one I've personally seen, I cant tell if they are all like this. There is also a ring in the very center of the light area which could not have been created by the pump since its so tiny.
JC, do you have any cam followers in the shop that have not yet been installed in the car. Can you take them out in to the daylight and shoot it at different angles to see if the same pattern on mine is evident on those. I tried my best to rotate the cam in natural light to show all color differences. Shooting straight on with a flash will not show variations in color/appearance very well.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Hmmm...
I must say Arin, your pics say more than you think...
How is it possible for 2 rigid surfaces (inside of follower/top of the piston contact) to interact like that, when supposedly ONLY the tip of the piston should leave a mark, and not the (piston+spring holder).
The pics above actually indicate the force acting on the follower centrally DEFORMS it, to the point where the spring support actually TOUCHES the follower, and that shouldn't be happening, since there is a fair amount of distance between the tip of the piston and the spring holder ring....
Not good i must say...









Or the whole assembly could be "pivoting", leaving the outer ring of the spring retainer. 
The same thing is barely evident in JC's follower pic.








but is present blackvento36's stock pic.








The way arin altered his pic only further highlights anything that is present on the surface.
Dave



_Modified by crew219 at 4:11 PM 3-24-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*

I also just washed mine out and dried off the oil with a towel which may help to see any variations. At any rate, it's no longer in the car. I'll be inspecting my cam follower in the future.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
It really looks like the OEM pump head is pivoting around in there...

Are you now talking about the larger ring that is present near the holes?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

I colored the pics above to explain what i mean to those that didn't understand it.
Here are the contact areas for both pump pistons.The "green area" is the tip, and under "normal" circumstances SHOULD be the only part in contact with the followers inner side.
The "red area" is the extra area the APR piston has over the Autotech








Now this is the inside of the follower.Again, the green area is seen in both pumps, but now in APR's case, there are also contact marks (red area) from the "extra area" around the tip.Now considering the "height difference" between the green and red area on the APR piston, the only explanation for it to be happening is deformation of some short...








Hmm...











_Modified by GolfRS at 2:13 AM 3-25-2008_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_.Now considering the "height difference" between the green and red area on the APR piston, the only explanation for it to be happening is deformation of some short...


Or wear, or the contact area isn't staying perfectly flat between strokes. 
I'm sure it's a mixture of all of the above. 
Perhaps Arin should post a picture of the backside of his follower to see whether or not it is "convexed" from "deformation".
Dave


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

Yes, I'm really interested in hearing about this deformation theory. I'm sure it would be wildly entertaining!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*

Another thing i find funny, is that actually from Arin's pic, and IF we conclude the bigger marked area is due to more contact, WHY is there uneven wear seen, when it should actually not be if the piston is moving completely vertically ?








But then again, maybe i'm just seeing things....










_Modified by GolfRS at 2:23 AM 3-25-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_Yes, I'm really interested in hearing about this deformation theory. I'm sure it would be wildly entertaining!

Maybe you are....and then again, maybe you are not....


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_








]

GolfRS, the red area+green area show here is equal to the green area on the oem piston tip.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Another thing i find funny, is that actually from Arin's pic, and IF we conclude the bigger marked area is due to more contact, WHY is there uneven wear seen, when it should actually not be if the piston is moving completely vertically ?








But then again, maybe i'm just seeing things....









_Modified by GolfRS at 2:23 AM 3-25-2008_

Here is the Raw image. What you are seeing is due to exposure highlight blow outs at 1600 iso. If I hold it in my hand and rotate it, that darker color goes the whole way around.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*

Oh, GolfRS, look at the second photo I posted. You can see the darker area all the way around the image much better in that shot.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
GolfRS, the red area+green area show here is equal to the green area on the oem piston tip.

If you look at both imprints from both pumps, there is a small circle for both pumps, that is the same size.On the APR (yours) follower, there is also a bigger outer area.Now as i said above, considering the height difference between the top and the lower angled part in the APR piston, that SHOULDN'T be happening, no matter what the OEM print is....


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Or wear, or the contact area isn't staying perfectly flat between strokes. 
I'm sure it's a mixture of all of the above. 
Perhaps Arin should post a picture of the backside of his follower to see whether or not it is "convexed" from "deformation".
Dave

I would tend to agree. The force being applied by cam lobe is always tangential to the direction of the motion, so I would imagine that the follower would shift somewhat within the bore as it goes through it's stroke. The actual thickness of the part looks like it could be susceptible to a certain amount of flex across the face also. I don't know the particular properties of the metal, but it wouldn't be unrealistic for it to flex back and forth during operation without showing any permanent cupping.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
I would tend to agree. The force being applied by cam lobe is always tangential to the direction of the motion, so I would imagine that the follower would shift somewhat within the bore as it goes through it's stroke. The actual thickness of the part looks like it could be susceptible to a certain amount of flex across the face also. I don't know the particular properties of the metal, but it wouldn't be unrealistic for it to flex back and forth during operation without showing any permanent cupping.

EXACTLY....Thank you very much...








I wonder now, how big a part APR's reinforced spring has in this matter...


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
I would tend to agree. The force being applied by cam lobe is always tangential to the direction of the motion, so I would imagine that the follower would shift somewhat within the bore as it goes through it's stroke. The actual thickness of the part looks like it could be susceptible to a certain amount of flex across the face also. I don't know the particular properties of the metal, but it wouldn't be unrealistic for it to flex back and forth during operation without showing any permanent cupping.

...As was indicated by the patent information for the pump when it reffered to provisions for pivoting. I am sure they must have meant deformation rather than pivoting, though.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
...As was indicated by the patent information for the pump when it reffered to provisions for pivoting. I am sure they must have meant deformation rather than pivoting, though.

Pivoting and deformation are 2 completely different things.
the first is a rotational movement around an axis, and the second is the result of prolonged stressing of the follower on the vertical axis, in the direction of the piston..
Do the above seem the same to you ??


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Do the above seem the same to you ??









No. That's why it was sarcasm. Go back, read the patent, then we can start a meaningful conversation. In the mean time I would take "deformation" wear over "jack hammer" wear anyday. Fair enough?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
No. That's why it was sarcasm. Go back, read the patent, then we can start a meaningful conversation. In the mean time I would take "deformation" wear over "jack hammer" wear anyday. Fair enough?









As i already explained to you, PIVOTING of the cam follower is an expected occurrence,taking into consideration both parts (cam follower/piston+spring holder) aren't FIXED to each other.If you take the pump with the follower on it into your hands, you can PIVOT all you want...
So again....what does that have to do with all the above, and how the follower might be getting...DEFORMED ???


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_So again....what does that have to do with all the above, and how the follower might be getting...DEFORMED ???









You tell _me_ how it's getting deformed. It's your theory!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
You tell _me_ how it's getting deformed. It's your theory!

Why don't you state in public what you tell me on your p.m's ?
That actually PIVOTING of a piston tip with next to no clearance is making the contact area larger ???















I mean seriously man.......FFS....


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

just my .02 but the relation seems to be that the deformation is occuring at the point of pivot. The APR pump having the wider piston with the same contact area and then tapering off causing possible "cupping" on the follower. Where as the other pump pictured not having the tapered edge is "punching" into the follower, giving it a more definate point of pivot, yet possibly wearing through faster...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (magilson)*

Not sure if any of this information can help at all, but here is patent information related to our pump:
http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...t.pdf
http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...2.pdf
http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...3.pdf
http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...4.pdf
They are fairly difficult to read but have some interesting information.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_just my .02 but the relation seems to be that the deformation is occuring at the point of pivot. The APR pump having the wider piston with the same contact area and then tapering off causing possible "cupping" on the follower. Where as the other pump pictured not having the tapered edge is "punching" into the follower, giving it a more definate point of pivot, yet possibly wearing through faster...









What you also fail to understand, is that if the follower is rigid and both pump pistons have the same contact area (green area in my pics), then NO pivoting can make it larger.
Again, PIVOTING is a circular motion around an axis (the piston in our case) and if there is no SIDE MOTION allowed (which is the RULE for this pump to function properly), it ALWAYS should leave the same radius footprint...


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Not sure if any of this information can help at all, but here is patent information related to our pump:

It can't help at all. There is no help for any of us. It's deformation and we're all going to die.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
It can't help at all. There is no help for any of us. It's deformation and we're all going to die.

Or maybe its PIVOTING going wild inside the cam follower !!!















Now that would be a disaster...no ??


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Again, PIVOTING is a circular motion around an axis (the piston in our case) and if there is no SIDE MOTION allowed (which is the RULE for this pump to function properly), it ALWAYS should leave the same radius footprint...

READ THE FREAKING PATENT! Side motion is accounted for given the shape of the end piston shaft! It's not the piston that is pivoting! I don't know how many ways I can say this! It's the follower pivoting against the pump shaft!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
READ THE FREAKING PATENT! Side motion is accounted for given the shape of the end piston shaft! It's not the piston that is pivoting! I don't know how many ways I can say this! It's the follower pivoting against the pump shaft!




































































































Man...you are all confused.Maybe you are reading too many patents....
Of course the follower is pivoting.It is free to move, as i've already explained to you.
What you seem to keep ignoring though, is that there SHOULDN'T be ANY side motion happening, as that would seriously damage the pump, which needs to be moving in a constant vertical direction.
What exactly aren't you getting ???? FFS !!!


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

GolfRS, we may have a language barrier. 
Pivot can mean to spin around in a circle on a single point, as you are stating it. I mean rocking back and forth on a point or fulcrum. A seesaw pivots on a fulcrum.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_GolfRS, we may have a language barrier. 
Pivot can mean to spin around in a circle on a single point, as you are stating it. I mean rocking back and forth on a point or fulcrum. A seesaw pivots on a fulcrum.


Really ??Oh ok....
So what kind of movement would that explain when referring to the
pump again??


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_GolfRS, we may have a language barrier. 
Pivot can mean to spin around in a circle on a single point, as you are stating it. I mean rocking back and forth on a point or fulcrum. A seesaw pivots on a fulcrum.

I was referring to it pivoting on a fulcrum, acting like a english wheel that is used in body shops. could this be possible?


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## jeff2.0t (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: (shortydub)*

OMG we will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Wil I give my car to my poor widow wife or should I ask to be buried in my car to prevent a cataclysm


----------



## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (jeff2.0t)*


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
I was referring to it pivoting on a fulcrum, acting like a english wheel that is used in body shops. could this be possible?

Well i have no clue how that is, but the way i see it, the only 2 movements 
that should be "allowed" in the pump in order for it to have the most endured stress on
the piston (vertically) is, 
1)the up and down movement of the piston (completely vertically), and 
2)the rotation, pivoting, dancing round itself (or whatever you wanna call it) of the follower, which is to be expected, since it not attached to anything and its free to move (up down+pivot around the piston axis).
ANY other movement could put more stress on the piston, causing it to break, with all the known consequences.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
2)the rotation, pivoting, dancing round itself (or whatever you wanna call it) of the follower, which is to be expected, since it not attached to anything and its free to move (up down+pivot around the piston axis).

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Out of curiosity...why (if possible, most likely not) don't we find a way to make the follower and piston all one sturdy piece? Would this not alleviate all these problems? Or would this lead to issues with the cam lobe then?


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Well i have no clue how that is

Power hammer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated
English wheel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APmSjzBvYd0
I think the contact area of the piston and the camshaft is acting like a mix of these two on our cam followers....


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
I think the contact area of the piston and the camshaft is acting like a mix of these two on our cam followers....

Its a good analogy, since the forces on the follower are 
1)impact from the piston/tip (its just now starting to show that maybe increased rpm for prolonged periods might actually cause disruption of the piston follower contact, acting like a hammer on return)
2)frictional/rotational forces in the inside as the follower pivots around the piston axis.
3)"normal" friction/wear form the contact of the follower with the camshaft on the outside.


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

There does seem to be some confusion around terms and definitions. Here is a crude drawing that represents the type of pivoting I was referring to.








Here the cam follower is pivoting within the vertical plane of it's bore as the came lobe sweeps through it's arc, with the pump plunger acting as the pivot point. I've over simplified and exaggerated for effect.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Just ordered myself a follower. I know how the stock looked before I installed my APR pump...so I have a good basis for comparison. If it doesn't look right after 5k...we'll see. I have a feeling its fine.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_There does seem to be some confusion around terms and definitions. Here is a crude drawing that represents the type of pivoting I was referring to.








Here the cam follower is pivoting within the vertical plane of it's bore as the came lobe sweeps through it's arc, with the pump plunger acting as the pivot point. I've over simplified and exaggerated for effect.

Thank you for this image. This is what I tried to describe long ago.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_There does seem to be some confusion around terms and definitions. Here is a crude drawing that represents the type of pivoting I was referring to.








Here the cam follower is pivoting within the vertical plane of it's bore as the came lobe sweeps through it's arc, with the pump plunger acting as the pivot point. I've over simplified and exaggerated for effect.

Right..Now this is the thing i was also trying to explain SHOULDN'T be happening.
To begin with, the follower can't move in the direction you have positioned it, simply because its movement is directed by the the hole in which it moves, which is only up and down.Also, if you pic was the case, you would also find wear marks on the lips of the follower, and that just isn't the case....
Second, IF it were to move like that, the force acting upon the piston would not be a vertical one, and since the piston CAN'T move sideways, the whole of the force would be translated to stress.
The above are just a few of what would be happening if your drawing was actually what is happening.I'm pretty sure i can think of some more...


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

Totally agree with GolfRS to the above
The main reason of cam premature wear except the extra force it takes from aftermarket hpfp's is the driving style. Especially when raping the car all the time by changing gears to redline


_Modified by csih at 3:40 PM 3-25-2008_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

Surprise me and take some time to read the patent for the pump. Or don't and keep speculating when there is an explanation readily available... Either way...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_Totally agree with GolfRS to the above
The main reason of cam premature wear except the extra force it takes from aftermarket hpfp's is the driving style. Especially when raping the car all the time by changing gears to redline

Is that why yours cracked in half? Were you goign much past redline?


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

every single time, yes and 4 more cases i know from first hand all did to their cars the same thing. Imagine that the last case was on a Golf GTI 08 Model with 7000kms STOCK!


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_every single time, yes and 4 more cases i know from first hand all did to their cars the same thing. Imagine that the last case was on a Golf GTI 08 Model with 7000kms STOCK!

How far above redline were you pushing it each time?
Were you running at 150 bar with that tune too?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I would imagine the DSG owners have less to worry about as the car shifts before even hitting where the rev limiter is set.


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
How far above redline were you pushing it each time?
Were you running at 150 bar with that tune too?

I have never run 150 bar. Its way far saying i will kill you from actually doing that,,,


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I would imagine the DSG owners have less to worry about as the car shifts before even hitting where the rev limiter is set.

I was thinking the same thing too


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_
I have never run 150 bar. Its way far saying i will kill you from actually doing that,,,









Not really sure what that means. Only reason I asked if you ran 150 bar was because you asked about it in the past and said you, or someone you knew was going to do it. No one ever cleared that one up.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_Surprise me and take some time to read the patent for the pump. Or don't and keep speculating when there is an explanation readily available... Either way...

Dude...you are starting to get on my nerves why your retarded "read the patent" 
repetition.
Since you are "trying" to look smart, please enlighten us with your... "patent wisdom"














or quit saying.Its not like it matters anyway.....


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

Dimitri btw have you checked you cf?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_Dimitri btw have you checked you cf?

No but i am willing to bet its as good as new.
I don't push the car to the limit that frequently, and i check my pressure deviation every time i log.
I was going to check it though, just to make sure.
In contrast to what others seem to believe, i don't think follower failures are about to destroy the world.Its just another "fuel cut" hysteria, all over again.....
But we'll see pretty soon.


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
No but i am willing to bet its as good as new.
I don't push the car to the limit that frequently, and i check my pressure deviation every time i log.
I was going to check it though, just to make sure.
In contrast to what others seem to believe, i don't think follower failures are about to destroy the world.Its just another "fuel cut" hysteria, all over again.....
But we'll see pretty soon.

I mostly agree but with fuel cuts you didnt had any hardware failures..if cf brakes then you begin talking from 1000$-++++ for repairs. So better prevent things than repair and pay a **** load of money later


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I have to agree with csih...you really need to prevent the issue from the start before it bites you in the rear.
GolfRS: What do you mean we'll see pretty soon?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Dude...you are starting to get on my nerves why your retarded "read the patent" 
repetition.
Since you are "trying" to look smart, please enlighten us with your... "patent wisdom"














or quit saying.Its not like it matters anyway.....

ditto?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_
I mostly agree but with fuel cuts you didnt had any hardware failures..if cf brakes then you begin talking from 1000$-++++ for repairs. So better prevent things than repair and pay a **** load of money later

Well that not exactly right.
A fuel cut is caused by a rather sudden drop in fuel pressure reaching as low as 80 bar.
Indications that the pumping mechanism is failing could be as subtle as a more than 3% standard deviation from requested, which is within the acceptable limits.This means that if you log your rail pressure and you see areas where the rail difference is more like 5 to 10 bar, then you should start getting suspicious.....


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I have to agree with csih...you really need to prevent the issue from the start before it bites you in the rear.
GolfRS: What do you mean we'll see pretty soon?

I mean.... when i check it ??


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Ah ok, sorry, my mistake.


----------



## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

I dont know if cryogenics to this part could help a bit


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_I dont know if cryogenics to this part could help a bit

You can try and let us know.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_I dont know if cryogenics to this part could help a bit
Actually it probably could. From what I know about cryogenic treatment (which isn't much) is that it improves a metal's ability to resist wear without actually hardening it much. The last thing you wanna do is make the follower much harder. Could work but for what it probably costs I doubt any single person would wanna bother. 
I've always supported Autotech's stuff but I wouldn't bother doing anything to the follower if running their pump. The concave surface of their plunger tip would eat through a follower sooner or later regardless. 
I think in a perfect world one of these companies would redesign the plunger shaft slightly shorter and the follower slightly thicker. That way the the bottom of the follower wouldn't deform and allow the plunger to play and wear the follower.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
I've always supported Autotech's stuff but I wouldn't bother doing anything to the follower if running their pump. The concave surface of their plunger tip would eat through a follower sooner or later regardless. 


Again blanket statements without looking at all the facts.
JCs autotech pump is only one of many that I have seen/ been sent pictures of that appears the way it does. Every other follower has had 100% identical wear both inside and out regardless of brand.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Again blanket statements without looking at all the facts.
JCs autotech pump is only one of many that I have seen/ been sent pictures of that appears the way it does. Every other follower has had 100% identical wear both inside and out regardless of brand.

Post them up!


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

What is involved in cryogenic treatment. I have access to LN2 and have two cam followers on the way.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
Post them up!

I'll see what I can, have to realize anything that comes through my email is covered by my NDA.
Most will be the outside surface which will be obviously concave with all brands of pumps. 
Unfortunately this thread like most on the topic has turned into more I heart brand X then actual facts. Might as well argue honda vs VW at this point in the thread.. it will be just as productive.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

If you're going to make statements that all pumps regardless of brands will wear the same on the follower, you really need to post up evidence.
The only pics we've seen clearly show two different wear patterns between the AT/KMD style and the OEM/APR style.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
The only pics we've seen clearly show two different wear patterns between the AT/KMD style and the OEM/APR style.

I actually haven't seen a single picture that shows that, I've seen plenty of people post and bicker about what they want to be an issue because they like brand X or Y but nothing that is the real problem.
I have seen pictures showing an imprint on the back that may or may not be different but I have not seen anyone post a single picture showing the actual wear.
But we can just keep making circles.. but they are a lot more fun in a car or a dirtbike or crop circles even.. doing them on forums gets a little boring.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Are you serious?
Look at arin's pic, and look at JC's.
JC's shows a very clear cut in circle while arins is more of an indentation. Am I missing something here?
















Maybe its the way the pics were taken? The lighting?


_Modified by NoRegrets78 at 10:08 AM 3-26-2008_


----------



## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

NR78 - its the same wear man. 
we're waisting time arguing over this. it would be more productive to bicker over a solution, than it would be to defend a part that is obviously broken.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Must be the lighting then.
I'm sorry I just haven't seen any in person, and like a lot here am relying on info posted by others. To me the pics look different...but it may just be an illusion. I apologize for my noobness. I'm still trying to grasp this whole concept and figure out what the hell is going on.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Are you serious?
Look at arin's pic, and look at JC's.
JC's shows a very clear cut in circle while arins is more of an indentation. Am I missing something here?


Yes I am 100% serious because you guys are arguing over something that is NOT THE PROBLEM!!
none of these are wearing or failing from the back.
It doesn't matter what that indent looks like on the back the only thing that matters if the face.
Notice anyone stuck on the back side is never showing the face of their follower after 6-10K miles with an aftermarket pump.
Now lets look at the back side for a minute though since it DOES show the fail point.
You see that ring that is obvious between the 4 oil holes? slight to the inside of them.
That is the fail point if its let to go too long so that it wears thin enough to crack.
Every single failure so far that I have seen has cracked at that line. Connecting the dots between the holes.
Every single failure I have seen so far regardless of pump has been concave, worn, and broken in an identical matter.
You want proof from me about what I am saying, I have yet to see one shred of evidence that the tip style and wear pattern from the backside has caused a failure. When someone can even come up with an instance where if failed because of that let me know. How many of the people in this discussion have even seen a truely warn follower first hand? How many people in this discussion have had a failure and are not being honest about it would be the better question


----------



## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

i think that if anything, its just phases of the same "break" process.
its a somewhat protracted "break", where phases of wear are being detected until -if left alone- it would go catastrophic on us (or actually has on some). i think we'll be better off if we think of the whole process as "the break".
just as with many other VW parts on this car, they are "just barely" adequate for stock usage....however, once we "go mod" we take great risk in exacerbating an already "iffy" situation.
don't let anyone convince you that any company is the cause of this. you won't be doing yourself any favors if you do. you'd just be closing your eyes to a "break in progress"


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (2zzge)*

just to clear this up, chris is right, every failure besides mine has the top punched in from the cam side and you see stress cracks connecting the 4 holes, as for mine..mine was about to punch straight threw the center with no wear marks anywhere else on the follower except the exact spot on the opposite side
i am hosting pics now of a failure with an APR pump and it is the same style failure as the OEM and every other brand pump


----------



## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

that would be helpful jc, thanks!


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (2zzge)*

sorry the only camera i have available to me at work sucks ass but you can see the cracks connecting the 4 holes


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_you can see the cracks connecting the 4 holes


Emmmm....not really...
Pic quality is too bad to see it.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Emmmm....not really...
Pic quality is too bad to see it.









i know the pics suck but how can you honestly not see the lines connecting the holes








i will try to remember my other camera tomorrow


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I apologize...I think I understand now. It's hard enough to weed through all the propaganda and misinformation without getting caught up in it all.
Now that it's pretty much agreed this is a problem across the board...lets get this thread back to figuring out a permanent solution other than going back to stock fuel pumps.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_every failure besides mine has the top punched in from the cam side and you see stress cracks connecting the 4 holes, as for mine..mine was about to punch straight threw the center with no wear marks anywhere else on the follower except the exact spot on the opposite side


That sounds like a possible failure's from the follower floating on the cam surface and just hammering its way through?? .
just my 2 cents







Bob.G


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
That sounds like a possible failure's from the follower floating on the cam surface and just hammering its way through?? .
just my 2 cents







Bob.G


it's possible but thats something i am going to have to deal with as i am rev'ing my car higher than anyone else here, chris rev's his car just as high if not higher but has yet to have the same problem that i did so thats a 50/50 chance..autotech seems to feel it might be the pump its self and is getting me a new pump out to try..it could be alot of different things on my car seeing i am doing things a little different then everyone else
and might i add i don't feel rpm is the problem but i can't eliminate it as a possibitiy until i can prove that it's not the problem


_Modified by [email protected] at 8:31 AM 3-26-2008_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Are you serious?
Look at arin's pic, and look at JC's.
JC's shows a very clear cut in circle while arins is more of an indentation. Am I missing something here?









Actually, that's my pic and that was the stock fuel pump. 


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Again blanket statements without looking at all the facts.
JCs autotech pump is only one of many that I have seen/ been sent pictures of that appears the way it does. Every other follower has had 100% identical wear both inside and out regardless of brand.
How did you figure that was a "blanket statement"?
Spongebob sent me this pic which I posted on the other page








And this is JC's pic we are obviously familiar with








One picture shows a concave plunger tip, and another shows a convex depression punched into the follower by the same company's fuel pump. That must be a coincidence tho right? 
talking about photo's that you have "been sent" does no one any good if we don't see them and can't verify what the setup was. 
All I know is...............
the wear on my follower 
doesn't look like JC's follower
which doesn't look like Arin's follower








So what the hell are you talking about?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_just to clear this up, chris is right, every failure besides mine has the top punched in from the cam side and you see stress cracks connecting the 4 holes, as for mine..mine was about to punch straight threw the center with no wear marks anywhere else on the follower except the exact spot on the opposite side
i am hosting pics now of a failure with an APR pump and it is the same style failure as the OEM and every other brand pump
stress cracking the follower is one thing, Chris was talking about "wear" which in your case especially, looks alot more pronounced with the Autotech pump. He specifically said every one he has seen looked like your AT follower. 


_Modified by blackvento36 at 11:54 AM 3-26-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_stress cracking the follower is one thing, Chris was talking about "wear" which in your case especially, looks alot more pronounced with the Autotech pump. He specifically said every one he has seen looked like your AT follower. 

_Modified by blackvento36 at 11:54 AM 3-26-2008_

he is not talking about the fuel pump side of the follower he is talking about the cam side i believe


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote »_
One picture shows a concave plunger tip, and another shows a convex depression punched into the follower by the same company's fuel pump. That must be a coincidence tho right? 

Show me where the tip has caused a failure and you'll have a point. 
Look at the pictures JC just posted.. THAT is a failure, had that kept going it would have cracked between the holes and the center fallen out.
The pictures of jcs follower and tip are rare and so far the ONLY one that looks as if it does. Possibly related to high revs and floating. However I am probably the only other one who is reving as high as his has and mine wore/failed just like the one he just posted, not like his. 


_Quote »_
talking about photo's that you have "been sent" does no one any good if we don't see them and can't verify what the setup was. 

Its just as good if not better then discussing a non issue. Doesn't matter if someone posts pictures or not if the pictures are not of the real problem. Its about as valuable as posting pictures of your front lawn if its not related to the problem.
JC just posted a picture of an apr pumps wear.. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.. not the back.
I just cropped and need to upload a picture showing identical wear on the face of the follower.. you know the part where it wears and fails. As soon as I get them up I'll post it. You'll see that despite the internets theory on this style tip pushing OUT its in fact concave and showing the exact same line on the front face as the one JC just posted.
Or we can just keep theorizing based on brand loyalty, which really seems like the best way to get to a solution.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_stress cracking the follower is one thing, Chris was talking about "wear" which in your case especially, looks alot more pronounced with the Autotech pump. He specifically said every one he has seen looked like your AT follower. 


No its not one thing.. its the whole issue. Again this is why people need to get off the tip.
The followers are being worn in a matter they are thinning out and being pushed inwards. This thinning and stretching weakens the follower which then causes stress cracks. Eventually the entire center of the follower will fall out once its worn/stretched/cracked causing the tip of the pump to ride directly on the cam.
I'm not sure what you mean by all the ones I have seen look like his as I've made it clear I have never seen one like his other then his.
I agree that the way it leaves a mark on the inside is different then the stock or apr. I don't agree or believe in anyway that its part of the overall problem.
I do believe in his specific case that it potentially was an issue. But he also has little mileage on his, had it stayed in his wear on the face may have ended up just like the rest. Point is like him everyone should be checking and replacing their followers when they see wear, regardless of brand of your pump. We can ignore this and have failures or we can play it safe.. 
Its like a hooker with no condom
Vs 
your GF with one
Which one is being just plain stupid and which one is playing it extra safe?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Show me where the tip has caused a failure and you'll have a point. 

Well lets ask JC
Hey JC, do you consider that follower used with your Autotech pump to be a "failure"? If not, why did you change it? Would you be comfortable running that for a while longer knowing that pretty god damn soon you would be replacing your intake cam rather than a $53, 30-minute-to-replace part.
Honestly Chris that is the most boneheaded thing I've heard on here in a while. You know better than that. The pressure was focused on such a specific part that it's damn near as pronounced on the backside as the front! Out of all the follower pics posted in this thread, that's the only one that looks like that.










_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Or we can just keep theorizing based on brand loyalty, which really seems like the best way to get to a solution.

Are you serious? I've almost made it a career on this forum to bash APR. Every fuel pump thread I've posted in has me backing up Autotech's, but unless I ignore the obvious flaw which only you can't seem to see, I can't continue with that. I like Autotech too, but you almost sound like your bangin the owners daughter


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

he was not including mine in that statement, mine is the only cam follower with proof to have failed like that, i sent autotech pictures of both my pump and follower and they seem to think their is something wrong with my specific pump..i have not seen another cam follower to date that has failed just like mine..everyone i see is punched in from the cam side mine is rare and is punched in the the fuel pump side..my car is also operating under condition that no other car is at this current time so my follower should be irrelivant <--- (i am no english major







)


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No its not one thing.. its the whole issue. Again this is why people need to get off the tip.
The followers are being worn in a matter they are thinning out and being pushed inwards. This thinning and stretching weakens the follower which then causes stress cracks. Eventually the entire center of the follower will fall out once its worn/stretched/cracked causing the tip of the pump to ride directly on the cam.

Yes, that is understood, we all know about the failures with the pump stretching and cracking out almost the entire face of the follower. While, in your opinion, Autotech's follower wear isn't a problem it is in mine. I can see that plunger causing the follower to wear right through the very center. Just because A in likely to happen sooner than B doesn't mean it's not an issue. If his had little mileage on it now, what would it be like in say another 5k miles? Assuming that it doesn't break in the common fashion first.
BTW stress and wear are 2 different things, we can argue about that too if you like.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_he was not including mine in that statement, mine is the only cam follower with proof to have failed like that, i sent autotech pictures of both my pump and follower and they seem to think their is something wrong with my specific pump..i have not seen another cam follower to date that has failed just like mine..everyone i see is punched in from the cam side mine is rare and is punched in the the fuel pump side..my car is also operating under condition that no other car is at this current time so my follower should be irrelivant <--- (i am no english major







)
I understand you don't want to make this an Autotech bashing thing and that's fine, I don't either. *He* may not have been including your follower in his statement, but yours certainly answered the question he asked. 
All I know is Spongebob shows me a pic of a plunger with a concave tip, and you show me a picture of a follower with wear which has almost certainly been caused by that concave tip. And he didn't even send the pic for that purpose, somebody just pointed it out.
Now the argument seems to be that yours is an isolated incident, but I bet your tip looks just like his. The only difference between your car and any other car running that pump that would be relevant is that your revved your engine higher than most. To me, that means your saying if you've ever tuned your car to the point you'd wanna rev it that high at the track, your Autotech pump will be holding you back. Alot of followers have had the faces punched completely out, which would hinder someone from noticing the wear you've seen. I'll bet most ppl haven't even checked their follower until it had a catastrophic failure.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
If not, why did you change it? 


The same could be asked to any number of people on this forum who have changed their follower but are only showing the back side








If their backside looks fine why did they change it and why only show the one side?

_Quote »_Honestly Chris that is the most boneheaded thing I've heard on here in a while. You know better than that. The pressure was focused on such a specific part that it's damn near as pronounced on the backside as the front! Out of all the follower pics posted in this thread, that's the only one that looks like that. 

Is it really that hard to figure out that jc's failure appears to be an isolated incident? Have you seen anyone actually post similar pictures or report a similar issue? That it doesn't have to mean that the problem was even directly related to the pump itself but possibly just exaggerated and really the PROBLEM that caused it was related to something else?
As its been brought up, did it float and cause a punching situation on the follower? If thats the case, a stock type tip would have done the same. Did it hold up in the bore possible and cause extra pressure on it? IF so the same could happen if it was a stock style tip.
The only thing being brought up so far is that the tips are different.. no proof that its actually a problem or the cause of a problem. When multiple people start wearing out the backside lets look at it.. Right now however they are wearing/deforming from the front face.



_Quote »_
Are you serious? I've almost made it a career on this forum to bash APR.
 
Is that really something to be proud of? I mean really shouldn't we be here to get to the bottom of things and discuss things, not bash?
On that note some of your former "bashing" brethren are now supporters. So really it doesn't matter what you've done in the past.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Yes, that is understood, we all know about the failures with the pump stretching and cracking out almost the entire face of the follower. While, in your opinion, Autotech's follower wear isn't a problem it is in mine. I can see that plunger causing the follower to wear right through the very center. Just because A in likely to happen sooner than B doesn't mean it's not an issue. If his had little mileage on it now, what would it be like in say another 5k miles? Assuming that it doesn't break in the common fashion first.

I've never said his follower is perfect and doesn't present an issue.. I have made the point several times but no one cares, that his is the only one that this has happened to. We can work to figure out the isolated instance or the one that is happening to handfuls of people. Which do you think is more productive?


_Quote »_
BTW stress and wear are 2 different things, we can argue about that too if you like.

Actually they are not if you really want to get down to it, but I know what you are saying and BOTH are occuring if you really want to get technical.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The same could be asked to any number of people on this forum who have changed their follower but are only showing the back side








If their backside looks fine why did they change it and why only show the one side?


Just to be clear, you do mean "plunger" as "backside" right. In this particular post they were only posting pics to compare with the plunger side of JCs. Cam side would have been irrelevant. Mine is stock, but I did post both sides. Those ppl didn't necessarily change them, they may have just taken pics when they pulled it to check. I don't recall them saying which.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Is it really that hard to figure out that jc's failure appears to be an isolated incident? Have you seen anyone actually post similar pictures or report a similar issue? That it doesn't have to mean that the problem was even directly related to the pump itself but possibly just exaggerated and really the PROBLEM that caused it was related to something else?
As its been brought up, did it float and cause a punching situation on the follower? If thats the case, a stock type tip would have done the same. Did it hold up in the bore possible and cause extra pressure on it? IF so the same could happen if it was a stock style tip.
The only thing being brought up so far is that the tips are different.. no proof that its actually a problem or the cause of a problem. When multiple people start wearing out the backside lets look at it.. Right now however they are wearing/deforming from the front face.

See my above post for thoughts on all of that.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
On that note some of your former "bashing" brethren are now supporters. So really it doesn't matter what you've done in the past.
I've only ever bashed APR because of their forum antics and crazy prices, I know they make quality ****. Well you probably know as well as I do why they are now "supporters". I've had my chance at becoming an official "supporter" and passed it up.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I understand you don't want to make this an Autotech bashing thing and that's fine, I don't either. *He* may not have been including your follower in his statement, but yours certainly answered the question he asked. 

Not really because it has not been shown since its isolated that the autotech pump was the cause or that given the same conditions a stock tip would not do the same.
Thats like concluding you have a cure for cancer based on one patient and one test.


_Quote »_
All I know is Spongebob shows me a pic of a plunger with a concave tip, and you show me a picture of a follower with wear which has almost certainly been caused by that concave tip. And he didn't even send the pic for that purpose, somebody just pointed it out.

They are all putting a load in the center. Really what makes no sense is that a concave tip makes a convex impression.. Where's the logic in that one?


_Quote »_
Now the argument seems to be that yours is an isolated incident, but I bet your tip looks just like his. The only difference between your car and any other car running that pump that would be relevant is that your revved your engine higher than most. To me, that means your saying if you've ever tuned your car to the point you'd wanna rev it that high at the track, your Autotech pump will be holding you back. Alot of followers have had the faces punched completely out, which would hinder someone from noticing the wear you've seen. I'll bet most ppl haven't even checked their follower until it had a catastrophic failure.

As I've noted several times in this thread (and you noted) I am also reving my engine to the same point as his. Arguably for a longer period of time although possibly not to the extent of load he has since his car has spent many hours on the dyno. Mine wore/failed just like the rest not like Jeffs. 
How can you assume the Autotech pump will be the cause of the problem at high rpms when the only two high revving cars using that pump but had two different types of wear/failure? How does pointing fingers without evidence get to to the bottom of this?
Having the face punched out doesn't hinder anyone from seeing the wear he has at all since you are claiming its on the back side. The backside remains untouched when its a total failure.
You bring up a good point and that is really my ONLY point is that no one checks until they have a failure and its too late.. If we keep blaming tips you are going to only get people with ONE brand of pump checking. Despite the obvious evidence that even STOCK style pumps are failing how is that productive?
What good is it to blame one style tip when they are all failing?

If they are all failing how can it be the style of the tip?
Ignore Jeffs failure for a moment and you've admitted that there are known failures where it broke through. Are you saying these are all with the autotech style tip?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Those ppl didn't necessarily change them, they may have just taken pics when they pulled it to check. I don't recall them saying which.


People have replaced them.. its known.
The pictures they are showing now may be while checking..but they have been changed.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I've never said his follower is perfect and doesn't present an issue.. I have made the point several times but no one cares, that his is the only one that this has happened to. We can work to figure out the isolated instance or the one that is happening to handfuls of people. Which do you think is more productive?
I don't think any of it is productive to tell you the truth. This post can't change the way VW designed the FP drive, and I can't see any of these tuners redesigning the pumps to accomidate VW's design flaw let alone their own. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Actually they are not if you really want to get down to it, but I know what you are saying and BOTH are occuring if you really want to get technical.
Nope not even gonna bother with that one.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I don't think any of it is productive to tell you the truth. This post can't change the way VW designed the FP drive, and I can't see any of these tuners redesigning the pumps to accomidate VW's design flaw let alone their own. 

So no one should check their follower? Everythings just ok with them?


_Quote »_
Nope not even gonna bother with that one.

I'm sorry but i will.. just to make it clear a part cannot wear unless its under some form of stress.. whether you are looking at "stress" as one item and "wear" as another they are still related.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I'm gonna just make this one short cuz I really don't wanna clog up another thread of me and you arguing over moot points.
_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

They are all putting a load in the center. Really what makes no sense is that a concave tip makes a convex impression.. Where's the logic in that one?

Take a bowl (convex), put mashed potatoes in it, turn it upside down on a table. The mashed potatoes are now a convex shape caused by a concave shape. That shape imposed from one surface to another is an impression. Please don't make me find and post the definitions to these words. Just take your head out of your ass, you'll see things more clearly

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
How can you assume the Autotech pump will be the cause of the problem at high rpms when the only two high revving cars using that pump but had two different types of wear/failure? How does pointing fingers without evidence get to to the bottom of this?

I didn't, please read more thoroughly. I said that based on JCs statement that would be the conclusion you would come to. *that's not my assumption* 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

What good is it to blame one style tip when they are all failing?

If they are all failing how can it be the style of the tip?
Ignore Jeffs failure for a moment and you've admitted that there are known failures where it broke through. Are you saying these are all with the autotech style tip?
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo
your follower can fail by the entire face being cracked out (A), any pump can do that. Or maybe something like JCs issue happens (B). And yes A is obviously more likely to happen than B except in JCs case where B is more apparent than A
You already have A to worry about, why invite B?
Now if A has already happened, and you didn't check your follower until your car was driving like absolute ****, how in the hell can you check the pump side face of the follower for B when it no longer has a face. 
Trust me I know exactly what you'll say now I don't see a need to reply.


_Modified by blackvento36 at 2:38 PM 3-26-2008_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
whether you are looking at "stress" as one item and "wear" as another they are still related.
Just like in a way you're related to a monkey, but you're really not............right kinda like that?


----------



## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote »_Take a bowl (convex), put mashed potatoes in it, turn it upside down on a table. The mashed potatoes are now a convex shape caused by a concave shape. That shape imposed from one surface to another is an impression.

Did you just describe the bowl vs. van scene from Napoleon Dynamite?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
So no one should check their follower? Everythings just ok with them?

Do you twist everyone's word who doesn't agree with you, or just mine? I mean you're smart enough to rig up your own custom turbo setup, I refuse to believe your reading comprehension is that poor.


----------



## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Try and have this debate without stooping to personal attacks.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_
Did you just describe the bowl vs. van scene from Napoleon Dynamite?








Not at all, I would never compare Chris to Napoleon Dynamite. Chris dances (around your words) much better than he does.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Enough of the BS...why do we all keeping beating our heads against the wall with what pump, whose pump, etc. **** me!!! Is their anything that we can do to help the community? Maybe throw some suggestions out that seem logical and people with the knowhow and technology can look into said possibilities. We can sit here all day and argue, but at the end of the day...everyone's SOL until there's a solution.


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

Based on the reported method of failure, it seems that the follower is becoming work hardened and eventually fracturing. Seems like you would either need a more ductile material with the appropriate surface hardness, or to remove the mechanical problem all together by designing a roller solution to fit in the original space.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I'm gonna just make this one short cuz I really don't wanna clog up another thread of me and you arguing over moot points.Take a bowl (convex), put mashed potatoes in it, turn it upside down on a table. The mashed potatoes are now a convex shape caused by a concave shape. That shape imposed from one surface to another is an impression. Please don't make me find and post the definitions to these words. Just take your head out of your ass, you'll see things more clearly



Think about what everyone is saying is happening on JCs follower and lets think about your example vs what I said. 
Everyone is saying the outer face of jeffs follower is pushed OUT not in. If the fact that the tip of his pump was convex if it was doing as the mash potato example you said it would be pushed IN not out. 
Your potato example makes sense in its own way but has no bearing what so ever on the follower since you are not taking it out and flipping the follower over when you are done.
The example you made further backs up my statement that it being concave is not causing an issue.
Ok now this is the most crude drawing ever to reach the internet but this represents what A Jeffs follower looks like. what B jeffs follower should look like if in fact the concave tip is causing the problem and C the mash potato mode, if it was pulled out and fliped over, of if it was doing what you are saying its doing.








Now we can get into definitions.. of concave and convex but I'm pretty every know


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_ roller solution to fit in the original space.

This is how it is on every other VW/Audi FSI application.
Problem is be design this follower design is automatically longer which means some sort of adapter needs to be used to move the pump out to keep the same travel or it will start recessed and then bind.
Also like the stock ones there is a tab to keep it straight and inline so that requires removal and machining of the housing on the side of the head. which if there was a solution, trying this for my personal car, would be quite costly up front and likely deter people from doing pumps.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I hate to break it to everyone but this thread alone is deterring people from buying pumps!
It has me questioning my own that's for sure.
We need to know WHY this is happening, and what has to be done to prevent it. If it's not preventable, why would anyone in their right mind buy a product like this that could cause 2k worth in damage if you don't catch a worn follower in time?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I hate to break it to everyone but this thread alone is deterring people from buying pumps!
It has me questioning my own that's for sure.
We need to know WHY this is happening, and what has to be done to prevent it. If it's not preventable, why would anyone in their right mind buy a product like this that could cause 2k worth in damage if you don't catch a worn follower in time?

I agree with what you are saying but do you run your plugs until it falls apart? no you replace them.
Do you run your oil till you consume it all and need to add or it sludges up? no you replace it in time.
Unfortunately it may make doing a fuel pump more difficult and it may mean less will but should more do it just because people don't want to admit to an issue thats happening across the board not just with a certain brand?
Granted I don't make money off of pumps so its easier for me to say if you don't want to deal with it don't buy it, but really its like anything else you need to take responsibility of the risk. If you don't want to have to check your follower every X miles then a pump is not for you. If you don't mind get the gains of the pump.
I can tell you right now I'm not normal and I NEED a pump at this point, but if I had a family member with a 2.0t and they asked if they should get a pump I'd say yes the gains are worth the extra 30 minutes a month it takes to check.
We certainly should not stop talking about it because it may deter people from doing it if there is a real legit problem, and well there is a real legit problem. Whether you think it's X, Y or Z causing it, it is still happening.
note: even the ?s were just general questions and not directed towards you or anyone else in anyway..


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

I guess my real concern comes down to this...
Let's say that in the next year or so (yes, I know it has already happened), the cam issues begin to appear all over the place on STOCK cars. 
Could you imagine your mother (driving a Passat, Jetta, what-have-you) taking her car to the VW dealership b/c the car can't accelerate (not wide open throttle, but normal merging acceleration)? The service manager calls her two days later and informs her that the cam follower has shattered, the piston of the fuel pump has destroyed its tip and the camlobe. Since you car has 60k miles on it, the warranty does not cover this. It looks like the repairs should cost roughly $2500.
VW knows about this and decided to look the other way while her car was under warranty. What now? Where does she turn? $2500 isn't pocket change for most people.


_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 5:57 PM 3-26-2008_


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_I guess my real concern comes down to this...
Let's say that in the next year or so (yes, I know it has already happened), the cam issues begin to appear all over the place on STOCK cars. 
Could you imagine your mother (driving a Passat, Jetta, what-have-you) taking her car to the VW dealership b/c the car can't accelerate (not wide open throttle, but normal merging acceleration)? The service manager calls her two days later and informs her that the cam follower has shattered, the piston of the fuel pump has destroyed its tip and the camlobe. Since you car has 60k miles on it, the warranty does not cover this. It looks like the repairs should cost roughly $2500.
VW knows about this and decided to look the other way while her car was under warranty. What now? Where does she turn? $2500 isn't pocket change for most people.

_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 5:57 PM 3-26-2008_

This is happening now. I don't mean intentionally but that is basically the A cam issue.
Except its the cam deforming and wearing the follower.. not the follower wearing through and eating the cam with the pump tip.
And in reality there is nothing to say it won't happen to every 2.0t eventually even stock. Sucks and its not cheap but in reality in the car world its no different then an oil pump or waterpump going bad. The alternator gving out, heck the turbo.
Stuff breaks with cars, doesnt' matter if you or your grandma.
Lease it and turn it in before the warranty is up is really the only way to avoid dealing with failures the best you can. Or not buy a VW


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This is how it is on every other VW/Audi FSI application.


I can't even fathom why VW chose not to use a roller design for this engine.








Any chance you have some pics of what the factory roller assembly looks like?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*

I have one here but no camera on.
I have some pics sent to me by JC I'll dig them up.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
ANY other movement could put more stress on the piston, causing it to break, with all the known consequences.

As the cam turns it pushes the piston up and down the cam also spins and the friction with the tappet creates a side load. This is why the tappet is there to take the side load, and not transfer it to the pumping piston. 
If the tip of the piston digs into the tappet then the side load is transfered from the cam to the lifter and then to the piston. 
Autotech design has a small "ring" of contact with the lifter and most certainly digs into the lifter as shown in pictures and as understood by most everyone on here. If the lifter happens to have a slight angle contact with the ring, then the ring becomes a very small crescent shape until it can wear into a ring. 
The hitachi design has a large head that contacts the lifter. This large head gets an oil film between it and the lifter. This large area and oil film allows motion between the head and the lifter without transferring a large load. If there is any contact angle, the head can tilt to match up perfectly with the tappet. This ensures that there is a large contact area and a nice oil film. 
Side load can cause pistons to seize and it can cause lip seals to be damaged from constant side to side motion of the piston. A damaged lip seal will leak fuel down into the lifter area. This leakage will compromise the oil film mentioned above. Without proper oil film the lifter transfers more side loads, and has trouble spinning (note OD wear on JC's lifter) The cam to lifter interface can also be compromised due to poor oil viscosity. This increase wear rate again. 
In addition to the side load issue, there is also the need for the lifter to spin. The lifters will rotate in their bores. This is a good thing. Rotation of the lifter spreads out the wear over a large area rather than just cutting a groove in the lifter. If you stop the lifter from spinning (due to friction see above) then the lifter wear rate increases. Increased friction can be OD friction with the bore the lifter rides in (see OD wear above), or it can be friction from contact with the piston end. 

JC's recent failure is likely due to high rpm "float" this is something I discussed with him over pm's. The OEM pumps return spring is marginal at best for 7000 RPM inertia loads on all stock components (excluding friction and oil mass). Valve float causes an impact load when the cam and the piston make contact again. This impact load has potential for very high contact stresses. This can damage the coating on the piston. After damaging the coating the fiction goes up, the base material galls up and the cam eats a hole in it.


----------



## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This is happening now. I don't mean intentionally but that is basically the A cam issue.
Except its the cam deforming and wearing the follower.. not the follower wearing through and eating the cam with the pump tip.
And in reality there is nothing to say it won't happen to every 2.0t eventually even stock. Sucks and its not cheap but in reality in the car world its no different then an oil pump or water pump going bad. The alternator giving out, heck the turbo.
Stuff breaks with cars, doesnt' matter if you or your grandma.
Lease it and turn it in before the warranty is up is really the only way to avoid dealing with failures the best you can. Or not buy a VW










Its crazy the way warranty works, If you are so much as 1 mile over warr. they will not cover a repair unless you get on your knees















I deal with this at benz all day long, A car is out of warr and there is a known issue called A DTB (dealer tech Bulliten) its not covererd. it sucks but it is what it is


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (TheBox)*

i just want to put this out their too, that cam follower had about 2k on it before i got my car tuned between me and revo the follower has seen somewhere around 40hours of hell on the dyno, 5 track days and countless countless data logs on the highway to redline in every gear all with out changing the oil..follower was then killed with in 4k, many different things could have helped my follower fail we will see how the new one does.
as for it being caused by the valve floating, wouldn't my data logs show a loss in fuel pressure if it was floating?? i don't know thats why i am asking if it was floating my feeling is the pump would not use its full range of motion their for it would lack in fuel pressure. i could be wrong but it makes sense in my head










_Modified by [email protected] at 3:59 PM 3-26-2008_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
as for it being caused by the valve floating, wouldn't my data logs show a loss in fuel pressure if it was floating?? i don't know thats why i am asking if it was floating my feeling is the pump would not use its full range of motion their for it would lack in fuel pressure. i could be wrong but it makes sense in my head









_Modified by [email protected] at 3:59 PM 3-26-2008_

Jeff If its floating / bouncing off the cam it should have MORE LIFT= MORE PRESSURE NO???


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

i honestly don't


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Your pump does not deliver full fuel stroke anyways so if it lost a % it would still hold pressure. The ECU would just increase the ON timing.
Worst case for float is redline and lifting off the throttle. You don't deliver any fuel anyways, and there is no pressure in the pumping chamber to help push the piston back down at the nose of the cam. You pull a vacuum at the top of the piston trying to draw in fuel (a stepped piston creates pressure under the piston as well) and then the acceleration force from the spring is too weak to keep it in contact with the cam. It separates, the 2 parts then collide. At very high speeds. 
The stress cracks are pretty spooky for sure. This definitely indicates impact loading. Inadequate support on the backside of the lifter from the piston head would increase stresses. 
Also don't forget here that changing a lifter will not fix a worn cam. A cam with a chewed up surface finish, or a worn crown radius is just going to eat the new lifter faster than the original. A worn in cam and a new lifter will not have the same contact geometry as 2 new parts. Don't forget to break these in as well.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Think about what everyone is saying is happening on JCs follower and lets think about your example vs what I said. 
Everyone is saying the outer face of jeffs follower is pushed OUT not in. If the fact that the tip of his pump was convex if it was doing as the mash potato example you said it would be pushed IN not out. 
Your potato example makes sense in its own way but has no bearing what so ever on the follower since you are not taking it out and flipping the follower over when you are done.
The example you made further backs up my statement that it being concave is not causing an issue.
Ok now this is the most crude drawing ever to reach the internet but this represents what A Jeffs follower looks like. what B jeffs follower should look like if in fact the concave tip is causing the problem and C the mash potato mode, if it was pulled out and fliped over, of if it was doing what you are saying its doing.

Now we can get into definitions.. of concave and convex but I'm pretty every know 

Is it really that hard for you to understand? Here I'll draw you a picture since you like them. 







And please, don't tell me what "everyone is" saying about his follower. You're the only one that seems to be arguing about this, yet I recall at least one person describe exactly what I said


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_Is it really that hard for you to understand? Here I'll draw you a picture since you like them. 
And please, don't tell me what "everyone is" saying about his follower. You're the only one that seems to be arguing about this, yet I recall at least one person describe exactly what I said

Hard to understand?
How many more times do I need to say the outside surface is convex? which is NOT depicted in your drawing.. 
Your picture seems to be mislabeled









If you notice all but one tiny tiny area just out side the center is worn. why because his has a little nipple in the center for some reason which is wearing just like the outer part, so really its not even possible for it to be wearing as you have shown in your picture.
So despite your feelings that its actually carving only on that outside edge its actually wearing into it quite evenly although one could say "harder" then the stock style tip.
Now back to why the concave shape of the tip is really not the issue. (it may be an issue but not in the way people are trying to make it) If you notice his outside surface is pushed out (see A in my more awesomer then your drawing above).. or CONVEX when looking at it from the outside. So despite that you think its carving a convex shape on the inside in reality its pushing the whole center OUT.
This is all why in his instance it seems the failure was related to the pump possibly floating and punching at the lifter like enginerd just also described and has been brought up in this thread several times. This is NOT like any other failure I've seen whether it be pump or cam related. 
So now if you've had a failure like jeffs raise your hand like this kid:








I'm not going to bother asking others to share their wear or failures because no ones admitting... despite the wear on the outside facing being common and the same regardless of tip style.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Raring 2 Go)*

Chris earlier in an earlier thread where I commended you for posting information you felt was important for the community to know about fuel pumps and why you feel many of them are failing you responded to me with a long rant that included this:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Every time pumps come up you are quick to point out tip design which in the end seems to play no role in why followers are failing.

The posts above, by Enginerd, are exactly the information I am 'quick to point out'. Enginerd just knows how to say it better than me because he appears to actually know what he's talking about. Hope that clears things up.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Your picture seems to be mislabeled









Nope it's labeled exactly as it should be, I'm not pointing at the shape of the outside face of the follower, but the shape of the plunger tips impression on the INSIDE. I thought that was clear. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

How many more times do I need to say the outside surface is convex? which is NOT depicted in your drawing.. 

You don't, but since it has no bearing on what I said I don't feel the need to waste time drawing it. Besides his follower looks perfectly flat from the outside to me. I'm not saying that some don't get deformed that way, but his doesn't look that way.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This is all why in his instance it seems the failure was related to the pump possibly floating and punching at the lifter like enginerd just also described and has been brought up in this thread several times. This is NOT like any other failure I've seen whether it be pump or cam related. 

What's funny is that I said that first on page 2 in a reply to kid hobo, so it's not news to me
I no longer have the will to argue about you on this, I've already contributed everything I possibly could. I need to change my sig to "arguing with Chris is like smacking yourself in the face", cuz every time I say something you dance around it then make me repeat it 3 posts later. If you still wish to carry on, pose your argument then answer it yourself with a statement I've already made.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

ok i brought my other camera in just for you today GolfRS








here is the same cam follower i couldn't get good pictures of yesterday


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ok i brought my other camera in just for you today GolfRS








here is the same cam follower i couldn't get good pictures of yesterday









Well you pic just seems to confirm my theory about the deformation of the follower with prolonged pressure and/or hammering by the piston tip.
Its only natural the deformation follows the path of least resistance, in which case the area interconnecting the holes in the follower.So my guess is that everything that is happening is not just due to the increased pressure acting on the follower but also the "bad design" of the follower itself.I am just starting to thing of a solution involving an properly designed insert along with minimal (as allowed) shortening of the piston, which "might" cause a slight alteration in the pump's performance, but should give "some"piece of mind.....


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

i don't exactly follow the theory you are using, it is being hammered in by the cam shaft, it's gets pushed in towards the pump, unless i am just misunderstanding what you are trying to say, this is from an APR pump and the pump side doesn't look that bad at all


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Definitions below:
convex- is having a surface that is curved or rounded outward
concave- curved like a segment of the interior of a circle or hollow sphere; hollow and curved
BlackVento36 has it correct!


_Modified by lour32 at 7:09 AM 3-27-2008_


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Definitions below:
convex- is having a surface that is curved or rounded outward
concave- curved like a segment of the interior of a circle or hollow sphere; hollow and curved

Every single person in this thread using the terms knows the definitions and is using them correctly, the confusion has been what surfaces and what they should look like.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i don't exactly follow the theory you are using, it is being hammered in by the cam shaft, it's gets pushed in towards the pump, unless i am just misunderstanding what you are trying to say, this is from an APR pump and the pump side doesn't look that bad at all

My "theory" is,the result of analyzing the forces acting upon the follower, with the added "bonus" of the weak area between the holes.IF it where (which i guess isn't for lubrication purposes) somehow possible to produce a "hole free" follower, it would be much more resistant to the hammering from both sides.
Now my thinking is...., what IF we could use an insert between the follower inside base and the piston tip, that would be both more durable, but also allowing lubrication?OF course some of the piston length would have to be shortened, but it would be compensated by the insert's thickness, and also be cheap solution without much modification necessary...Of course all of the parameters of the insert would have to be calculated to fit the application.
How does that sound.....


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

well the holes allow oil to pass threw to lube, as for adding an insert then you are working backwards and you would prob end up flowing less or the same as the stock pump, as for adding an insert it's good thought that you could put a harder material to reinforce the follower face and also where the pump piston rides and then still have the softer surface on the cam to keep the camshaft from wearing but as stated above then you would have to increase piston bore on the pump to make up for the less motion of the piston


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_well the holes allow oil to pass threw to lube, as for adding an insert then you are working backwards and you would prob end up flowing less or the same as the stock pump, as for adding an insert it's good thought that you could put a harder material to reinforce the follower face and also where the pump piston rides and then still have the softer surface on the cam to keep the camshaft from wearing but as stated above then you would have to increase piston bore on the pump to make up for the less motion of the piston

The holes where the reason i said there should be "some" planning behind the design of such an insert.It would also have to have some kind of "pass through" mechanism, which would not effect its rigidity.
As for the increased bore, i don't think that would be necessary, at least not for lower (K04) applications.Plus, if the insert's thickness is compensated by a reduction in the pistons length, there is no reason for the pump NOT to perform as before...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
The holes where the reason i said there should be "some" planning behind the design of such an insert.It would also have to have some kind of "pass through" mechanism, which would not effect its rigidity.
As for the increased bore, i don't think that would be necessary, at least not for lower (K04) applications.Plus, if the insert's thickness is compensated by a reduction in the pistons length, there is no reason for the pump NOT to perform as before...









ok i see what you are saying now i missed what you were trying to say, thicker cam follower shorter piston so it still has the same movement inside the piston bore


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *jc[email protected]* »_
ok i see what you are saying now i missed what you were trying to say, thicker cam follower shorter piston so it still has the same movement inside the piston bore

Yep !!!
I thick this might do the trick.
I'll see if i can make something up this weekend, i'm gonna remove my pump to check anyways.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Not sure if any of th is information could help:
*High Pressure Fuel Pump With Lifter Guide And Method Of Manufacturing The Lifter Guide*
http://www.google.com/patents?...07896


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (lour32)*

2006 GTI 2.0T, 40k miles, stock pump. Follower disintegrated in the middle, fuel pump tip was riding directly on the cam:


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

well thats one damn sexy cam lol


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

tyrolkid,
How long was it driven like this (quesstimate) and what was it driving like. I get the cut out only when I hammer it in 5th or 6th. If I normally move up thru the RPM range I am fine to 120+.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (goin2fast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *goin2fast* »_tyrolkid,
How long was it driven like this (quesstimate) and what was it driving like. I get the cut out only when I hammer it in 5th or 6th. If I normally move up thru the RPM range I am fine to 120+.

It was driven like that for a while....customer was complaining of gradually worsening fuel cut.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_2006 GTI 2.0T, 40k miles, stock pump. Follower disintegrated in the middle, fuel pump tip was riding directly on the cam:









 

ouch A or B cam mike?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 

ouch A or B cam mike? 


Judging by the color it actually looks like a B


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Now my thinking is...., what IF we could use an insert between the follower inside base and the piston tip, that would be both more durable, but also allowing lubrication?
How does that sound.....









You mean something like the OEM/hitachi wobbling head








Don't forget that there are potential issues with adding anything in there. If you add something there the piston will be higher up at top dead center. You probably only have a couple mm before it bottoms out inside the pump body and makes metal the metal contact. You could turn the head over by hand to see if this happens but usually you don't have good feel like this. Best bet is to measure everything very carefully. 
Also anything you add will increase the mass that the return spring has to push down, so you lose max rpm potential. 
If you ground the end of the piston to have a very slight convex shape it would be much better for contact geometry.


----------



## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Right..Now this is the thing i was also trying to explain SHOULDN'T be happening.
To begin with, the follower can't move in the direction you have positioned it, simply because its movement is directed by the the hole in which it moves, which is only up and down.Also, if you pic was the case, you would also find wear marks on the lips of the follower, and that just isn't the case....
Second, IF it were to move like that, the force acting upon the piston would not be a vertical one, and since the piston CAN'T move sideways, the whole of the force would be translated to stress.
The above are just a few of what would be happening if your drawing was actually what is happening.I'm pretty sure i can think of some more...

Hmm, this seems disturbingly familiar.








Good thing it can't happen.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*

ok for those of you that think stock cars are much better, we just pulled this car inside the shop an hour ago, it has 32k on the car and is 100% bone stock
















stock new vs beat ass old pump


----------



## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re:*

So correct me if I’m wrong but we basically have two issues here.
1. 2.0T with intake CAM A. Intake CAM A is soft and can wear causing the follower to fail. There’s nothing we can do about this, right?
2. 2.0T with intake CAM B. Cam followers are failing with all pump types. The rate of failures vary with pump type (stock or high performance) What’s unknown is why (follower material, lack of lubrication) What can be done to prevent a $2k repair? Keep an eye on it. Until a superior replacement part is developed the cam follower requires periodic maintenance(replacement) just like other parts of the engine.


----------



## chudzikb (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: Re: (solarflare)*

Dam, I thought stock was somewhat safe? Be afraid, be very afraid...


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

We're all gonna die!!!
See quote in sig.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (TypeR #126)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TypeR #126* »_
Hmm, this seems disturbingly familiar.








Good thing it can't happen.









Please don't jump to conclusions.
What i proposed has nothing to do with your drawing, which merely depicts the OEM follower riding the cam and sliding up n down inside the pump hole.
It has nothing to do with what i said above.Please read it again.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
You mean something like the OEM/hitachi wobbling head









No not really.What i am proposing would be connected (or not) to the follower and not the piston. 

_Quote »_Don't forget that there are potential issues with adding anything in there. If you add something there the piston will be higher up at top dead center. You probably only have a couple mm before it bottoms out inside the pump body and makes metal the metal contact. You could turn the head over by hand to see if this happens but usually you don't have good feel like this. Best bet is to measure everything very carefully.

All of the above was already mentioned by me (although not really to that extend) and will be accounted for by the adjustment in the piston length.The insert won't have to be that thick, and since it won't be contacting the camshaft, there would be less of a problem with "metal hardness".You are adding something in, but also shaving something off.

_Quote »_Also anything you add will increase the mass that the return spring has to push down, so you lose max rpm potential.

Maybe but i doubt the mass difference will be THAT much to matter.


----------



## MGMG8GT (Nov 27, 2007)

Geebus..


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Please don't jump to conclusions.
What i proposed has nothing to do with your drawing, which merely depicts the OEM follower riding the cam and sliding up n down inside the pump hole.
It has nothing to do with what i said above.Please read it again.









pretty sure that depicts exaclty what it said it couldn't do.


----------



## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ok for those of you that think stock cars are much better, we just pulled this car inside the shop an hour ago, it has 32k on the car and is 100% bone stock


Any idea how often the oil was changed?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_








pretty sure that depicts exaclty what it said it couldn't do.

Huh ??
Read everything again plz.I agree you are confused.....


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

i did. and i've looked at many diagrams on the fuel pump. and that picture shows exactly what the follower does. i think you are confused as far what movement occurs with the follower.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Huh ??
Read everything again plz.I agree you are confused.....

No, what's happened is you've continued to be proven wrong and simply will not admit it...
Let us know the modulus of elasticity of the metal you choose to use to combat the effects of compression!


----------



## 0027gti (May 18, 2003)

*Re: (magilson)*

i checked my follwer the other day and it looked brand new. i have the a cam shaft with almost 30k on it and about 4k of that was with vf's pump. i guess thats a good sign.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (0027gti)*

Just a heads up, I would advise against changing the follower unless you see wear through the coating. The cam and the follower break in together and replacing just 1 of them can have bad initial contact geometry and cause high contact stress and cause more harm than good.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Just a heads up, I would advise against changing the follower unless you see wear through the coating. The cam and the follower break in together and replacing just 1 of them can have bad initial contact geometry and cause high contact stress and cause more harm than good. 

















So what you are saying is that we should better change our cams with the follower ??
That sounds rather stretched.My guess is not even VW suggests that...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

he means don't change it until you see real wear to be worried about, the cam and lifter break in together just like a normal lifter for a valve does with a cam..


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_he means don't change it until you see real wear to be worried about, the cam and lifter break in together just like a normal lifter for a valve does with a cam..

I know what he means, but i highly doubt ANYONE is gonna leave in an (even slightly worn) follower, simply from fear of "breaking in" the new one.
It has been proven by most of the pics that wear of the follower doesn't follow a linear course, and going from "i guess its ok" to "oh crap there goes my cam" is something that can't be timed.Anyone wants to bet what will fail first ?A "beginning to wear" follower, or a brand new "not broken in" follower ??


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Key Word in Enginerd's Statement...

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Just a heads up, I would *advise* against changing the follower unless you see wear through the coating. The cam and the follower break in together and replacing just 1 of them can have bad initial contact geometry and cause high contact stress and cause more harm than good. 


Take it for what it's worth.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Key Word in Enginerd's Statement...
Take it for what it's worth.

Thats all nice an fine, but "advising" in many cases (some also relating to the person saying it) might sound the same as "recommend" , or even "suggest" to the ears of a frightened/modified MKV owner.There is a saying..... "better safe than sorry"....and i'm guessing many adhere to that.
Besides, even if you don't do it the first time, a new follwer WILL be needed sometime down the line, and i doubt a new cam will be installed with it....(unless of course waiting to change the follower has to do with letting the cam get ground first, to justify changing both latter...


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Given his experience and knowledge on the subject...I'd take his word for it.
I'll have a spare just in case...but when I do my inspection I'll post up for all to see, front and back.
If it looks like what the TSB considers "normal" wear...then I'll leave it alone. I know exactly what it looked like before the APR pump so as long as it looks the same...it will go back in.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Given his experience and knowledge on the subject...I'd take his word for it.

Thats the reason i included "who is saying it" in my sentence.

_Quote »_
If it looks like what the TSB considers "normal" wear...then I'll leave it alone. I know exactly what it looked like before the APR pump so as long as it looks the same...it will go back in.

Yes but the TSB doesn't say that if you have "normal"wear you have X miles left...
This means you could check (and leave in) your original follower, and have it fail soon after.
The question actually is, how much time a new follower gets you....Not much i'd guess...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

GolfRS, 
for what it's worth, I usually take enginerd comments in respect to fuel pumps with a bit more validity because he stated he works for a company that designs HPFP's for GDI and diesel engines. 

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Ill chime in a little on this subject. My company manufactures gasoline direct injection pumps for mercedes, and diesel fuel injection pumps for dozens of OEM customers. 


Link
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...49208

[edit] 
added quote and link


_Modified by Arin at 7:55 AM 3-28-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_GolfRS, 
for what it's worth, I usually take enginerd comments in respect to fuel pumps with a bit more validity because he stated he works for a company that designs HPFP's for GDI and diesel engines. 
Link
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...49208

[edit] 
added quote and link

_Modified by Arin at 7:55 AM 3-28-2008_

Arin i said it twice in my previous posts that i think he knows his stuff also, but the point is....are YOU for that matter gonna follow his advice once you remove the pump and see it's wearing off ??











_Modified by GolfRS at 6:01 PM 3-28-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Arin i said it twice in my previous posts that i think he knows his stuff also, but the point is....are YOU for that matter gonna follow his advice once you remove the pump and see it's wearing off ??









He stated he would advise against it unless you see it wearing though. Some wear is normal, as defined by the TSB. Unless it's really wearing though all the coating, I wouldn't replace it. You both seem to agree with this.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
He stated he would advise against it unless you see it wearing though. Some wear is normal, as defined by the TSB. Unless it's really wearing though all the coating, I wouldn't replace it. You both seem to agree with this.

I was about to buy a new follower cause i wanted to check the old one this weekend (have the Autotech for ~2000 miles now), but didn't get to it.Now, it looks i might open it just to check, but i'm dreading the moment i'd have to chose between leaving it in there....or not moving the car at all (since i didn't get a new one...)


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

after i eat lunch i'm going out to pull off my stock pump just to take a look. i bought my gti in march of 2006 and currently have 43k miles. i'll get a few pics and post them when i get it out. 
when i reinstall the pump, just start it up? or do i have to do something to prime it?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Just be very careful when you bleed it...there's a lot of pressure in there! Don't let yourself get caught in the stream.


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (shue333)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shue333* »_after i eat lunch i'm going out to pull off my stock pump just to take a look. i bought my gti in march of 2006 and currently have 43k miles. i'll get a few pics and post them when i get it out. 
when i reinstall the pump, just start it up? or do i have to do something to prime it?

I also bought min in March of 06. I am very interested in seeing what you find as I will be checking mine tonight. We are geographically close to each other so our cars were prob. on the same boat.


_Modified by goin2fast at 12:17 PM 3-28-2008_


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Checking mine tomorrow...both Follower and Cam Version. Will also post pics whether good or bad. Build Date on mine is Feb.06


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

i have a feeling vw is going to have alot of angry customers this weekend, then monday they will have a bunch of parts sales of cams and follower







good luck guys hope everything looks ok when your in their http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Checking mine tomorrow...both Follower and Cam Version. Will also post pics whether good or bad. Build Date on mine is Feb.06

Mine was 6/06 as a 2007 and I had a B cam. But alas, production date or engine serial has nothing to do with determining cam.


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (syntrix)*

okay, here we go. bought 03/15/06 with 43,000 miles on the clock
everything looks really good. i'm not a great photographer, so bear with me. 
also, the banjo bolt was a serious PITA. but i got it after i got my intake out of the way. enjoy 
oh, yeah, stock pump. my car is stage 2 and i've pounded the hell out of it since day one.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
my workbench:








and the pump and stuff: 








































tell me what you guys think. the slight marks on the cam are just contact marks. they didn't look like scratches http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by shue333 at 10:45 AM 3-28-2008_


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Just be very careful when you bleed it...there's a lot of pressure in there! Don't let yourself get caught in the stream.
it had almost no pressure at all. serious


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

shue333: looks great!


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (shue333)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shue333* »_it had almost no pressure at all. serious

thats normal i don't understand why people think it's under crazy pressure, it's only under a ton of pressure in the upper rpm's, should just be a little squirt for like 2 seconds


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (shue333)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shue333* »_it had almost no pressure at all. serious

the kittenz sucked it out!!








no seriously, you just made my day sir. i also have an 06 bought in march and i have 20k miles and i granny drive it 99% of the time so hopefully mine will look like that. i'll check it sometime this week. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (shue333)*

shue333,
Were you experiencing any of the aforementioned symptoms??


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (goin2fast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *goin2fast* »_shue333,
Were you experiencing any of the aforementioned symptoms??

i don't think so. when i'm running out my car, in 4th and 5th gear at 5k the boost drops to 7-8 psi and i lose power, but the boost goes right back up to 12 ish and power starts rebuilding like normal.
someone said it was a "soft cut" and meant the cam was worn.
other's said it was bad gas. 
i think it may be my coilpacks. or a bad fuel pressure sensor, or my maf sensor.
but after reading this post, i just knew my cam had eaten through the follower and sheared off half of the pump piston 









thank the VW GODS that wasn't the problem http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by shue333 at 11:56 AM 3-28-2008_


_Modified by shue333 at 11:57 AM 3-28-2008_


----------



## SleepinGLI (Jan 20, 2008)

I pulled mine the other day, 06 model, and ill check again later, but im pretty sure its the A cam.
Anyway, the wear looks normal, however the follower is black on the sides, and just metal across the whole face... But there is no deviation and the whole face is perfectly smooth.
Did ALL the followers have the black coating?? Or am i about to have some bad stuff happen....
Cam looked great, and if i hadnt heard about the black coating i would think everything is fine


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

No pressure? What was with all the warnings about high pressure, run it with the fuse out or you'll die blah blah blah?


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (SleepinGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SleepinGLI* »_I pulled mine the other day, 06 model, and ill check again later, but im pretty sure its the A cam.
Anyway, the wear looks normal, however the follower is black on the sides, and just metal across the whole face... But there is no deviation and the whole face is perfectly smooth.
Did ALL the followers have the black coating?? Or am i about to have some bad stuff happen....
Cam looked great, and if i hadnt heard about the black coating i would think everything is fine

how could i have known if i have an "A" cam or "B" cam without pulling everything apart. it's not marked is it?


----------



## k04d fella (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

new to the site...read through the whole thread...flame suit on








could the failing cams and cam followers be caused by an improper break-in?
i mean getting on the car when stuff in the motor is still brand new and not worn in? it would seem that it would progressively get worse and worse since the cam and the follower are not broken in properly and thus would cause irregular wear


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_No pressure? What was with all the warnings about high pressure, run it with the fuse out or you'll die blah blah blah?

to get pressure the car has to be running. all i can think is when you turn off you car, it equilizes until restarted. for safety maybe?
i'm sure if you had the car running and shut it off and ran around to the valve and stuck a screwdriver in it, you may get more pressure.
^^^that's just theory, i in no way know that to be fact.


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (k04d fella)*


_Quote, originally posted by *k04d fella* »_new to the site...read through the whole thread...flame suit on








could the failing cams and cam followers be caused by an improper break-in?
i mean getting on the car when stuff in the motor is still brand new and not worn in? it would seem that it would progressively get worse and worse since the cam and the follower are not broken in properly and thus would cause irregular wear 
 i was squealing tires out of the dealership.








in no way have i babied that car, for i have owned many vw's and know the golden rules


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Was your car cold when you did it? How long was it sitting before you bled it?


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Was your car cold when you did it? How long was it sitting before you bled it?

parked it at 9 last night and pulled the pump off today at noon. 15 hours? i hate working on a hot car. 
i could see the pressure being up if it were still warm after a drive or something. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (shue333)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shue333* »_
i don't think so. when i'm running out my car, in 4th and 5th gear at 5k the boost drops to 7-8 psi and i lose power, but the boost goes right back up to 12 ish and power starts rebuilding like normal.
someone said it was a "soft cut" and meant the cam was worn.
other's said it was bad gas. 
i think it may be my coilpacks. or a bad fuel pressure sensor, or my maf sensor.
but after reading this post, i just knew my cam had eaten through the follower and sheared off half of the pump piston








thank the VW GODS that wasn't the problem http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

This sounds exactly like my situation, but not everytime, just one to two times a day. It varies depending on outside conditions, gas, etc. Hopefully...will update tomorrow. Thanks Shue...good news. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*









There is some very light damage to the coating near the outer edge. The cam looks very good. 
I would NOT change this lifter. 
I have been working with this DLC coating for a few years now on Diesel common rail fuel pumps. After the parts break in if you have a little wear like that near the fringe you will be ok. If you put a brand new one in there and do not change the cam I would bet that the new one gets damaged in 5K or less. You could try to baby it to break it in again real nice, but after wearing the cam into the other lifter it wont seat right on the new one. 
If the coating is worn off in the center it wont take long to eat right through and spread metal all around your engine. 
Ask an experienced engine builder if they like using new cams on old lifters, or new lifters on old cams. They will tell you that your taking your chances, and should replace both. Also if you want to re-use them you better keep them matched up.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

If the above is true, then it doesn't matter which part breaks...correct? Either way, the Cam and the Follower are going to be replaced. I don't think I will be adding an upgraded HPFP anytime in the near future.


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_ 
I have been working with this DLC coating for a few years now on Diesel common rail fuel pumps.


I'm not so sure it's DLC on the follower. Are you saying it is? Looks and behaves more like TiNi.


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_ 
There is some very light damage to the coating near the outer edge. The cam looks very good. 
I would NOT change this lifter. 
I have been working with this DLC coating for a few years now on Diesel common rail fuel pumps. After the parts break in if you have a little wear like that near the fringe you will be ok. If you put a brand new one in there and do not change the cam I would bet that the new one gets damaged in 5K or less. You could try to baby it to break it in again real nice, but after wearing the cam into the other lifter it wont seat right on the new one. 
If the coating is worn off in the center it wont take long to eat right through and spread metal all around your engine. 
Ask an experienced engine builder if they like using new cams on old lifters, or new lifters on old cams. They will tell you that your taking your chances, and should replace both. Also if you want to re-use them you better keep them matched up. 



in your opinion, if i were to buy an aftermarket pump, i should keep this follower and not replace it?


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (shue333)*

Just got finished inspecting mine. 63,362 miles on it and it looks great. I am soooo happy. Now what is causing my fuel cut at high RPMs in 5th & 6th. These are the codes I am getting (copied from another thread but the same).


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (goin2fast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *goin2fast* »_Just got finished inspecting mine. 63,362 miles on it and it looks great. I am soooo happy. Now what is causing my fuel cut at high RPMs in 5th & 6th. These are the codes I am getting (copied from another thread but the same). 

it was 75 degrees today in delaware and it wasn't doing it. maybe the cold weather? or winter gas blends?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_








There is some very light damage to the coating near the outer edge. The cam looks very good. 
I would NOT change this lifter. 


This is why i said what i said above about your suggestion.
I guess no one noticed the stress marks forming an inner circle at the weak points connecting the lubrication holes....








This is exactly the kind of early damage that leads to all those missing center piece photos.








My advise would be to change the follower ASAP to avoid cracking and all the known consequences....
But then again...its up to you....


----------



## brian8smith (Sep 26, 2006)

can someone link me to the TSB regarding all this?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
This is exactly the kind of early damage that leads to all those missing center piece photos.









How did you reach that conclusion?


----------



## xxxfast (Jul 26, 2007)

shue get some lotion on those hands........ouch


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm hosting the TSB here http://hardwired.homeip.net/VW...r.pdf
When I had my pump installed, my follower looked like the picture with the scuff marks.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*









I thought the 2.0 motor was testing for over a year before VW released it!How is it that all these stupid failures are still happening in 2008!?


----------



## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








I thought the 2.0 motor was testing for over a year before VW released it!How is it that all these stupid failures are still happening in 2008!?

And its a big problem, 9 pages in 6 days. damn


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shue333* »_
when i reinstall the pump, just start it up? or do i have to do something to prime it?

You don't really have to do anything. Just let the key set to "on" for a second before starting it, I'm pretty sure that's what pressurizes the hpfp. Opening the door primes the lpfp

_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Just be very careful when you bleed it...there's a lot of pressure in there! Don't let yourself get caught in the stream.
I didn't notice alotta pressure at all when I bled mine. I'd just keep a rag under it cuz it does let some fuel out, as does cracking the lines on the pump

_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_No pressure? What was with all the warnings about high pressure, run it with the fuse out or you'll die blah blah blah?
IIRC the early pumps (those before the "F" pump) did not have bleeder valves these may have to re run out the old fashioned way, by pulling the fuse and stalling the car


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (xxxfast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xxxfast* »_shue get some lotion on those hands........ouch

those are working man hands, sonny








i do hvac and was glueing together pvc pipe yesterday. got the glue all over my hands. so that's not dead flakey skin, it's pvc glue i haven't pulled off yet. it dries them out a bit also. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by shue333 at 9:00 AM 3-29-2008_


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

can someone inform my stupid ass how to get that second fuel line off? I have the two metal lines running into the pump...first line was a breeze (17mm wrench)...second line (12 pt...not sure what size)? Thanks.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

8mm 12 point


----------



## Mohudsolo (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I do not own anything with a 2.0T in it and have no stake in this whole discussion but am an engineer and find this to be an interesting technical problem.
Followers that look like the one that Shue333 posted that show a small ring near the holes could be tested with magnaflux or dye penetrant to see if that is cracking in the metal or only wear in the coating.
To get the follower to rotate, the cam will have a very slight cone shape to it with a very small difference in the circumference of the lobe across the face. This could tend to cause the scuffing seen in the coating on the follower face.
Most followers that fail are becoming concave on the face that contacts the cam lobe then the face fractures off the rest of the follower and carnage happens. My question is: does the metal of the follower wear off, get forged thinner, or does it stay basically the same thickness and get formed to the concave shape?
If it wears, the problem is a failure of the oil film. That can be from poor oil, prolonged oil changes, overheating of the oil, or simply overloading the surface. A spring that is too stiff could do that, but stock pumps are also causing failures. Is the coating on the follower for break-in or is it supposed to hold oil to give better load carrying capacity? In a properly designed follower, there should not be metal to metal contact; they should always be separated by an oil film. Maybe a better surface treatment would do it.
If wear is not the cause of the concavity, then that points to poor design of the cam lobe itself causing the pump to float. Pushrod engines can have issues of the closing side of the lobe doing a poor job of decelerating the follower as it gets back to the base circle and having it bounce when it stops. This causes very rapid wear. As Harley people with Evolution motors who had certain aftermarket cams about valvetrain issues in just a few thousand miles.
If stress is the main cause of failure at the holes, that also points to a basic design problem. The center of the follower transmits force from the cam to the pump. The only load that should be through the outside of the follower should be to resist rocking and to keep the surface touching the cam from rotating with it. Is there any chance the "skirt" area of the follower can hit something at either end of travel? How close to the oil holes does the cam lobe actually hit? Could it be a simple as being too close to the holes and being a stress riser?
Adapting a roller follower is not that easy. Roller cams usually require a different material for the lobes than flat tappet cams. Pushrod engines generally have to switch from chilled iron to some variation of steel and the cam lobe shape is very much different.
Simply making a follower thicker/heavier could make it worse as it would make it float at lower rpm. Better knowledge of the exact failure mode is necessary before anything concrete can actually be done.
I fear this could become another of those nagging problems that dogs VW. I'll be interested to see how this eventually turns out.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (Mohudsolo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_8mm 12 point

Thanks JC...started pouring on me once I got back from lunch, so I put everything back quickly and will have to give it a look next weekend.

_Quote, originally posted by *Mohudsolo* »_
If stress is the main cause of failure at the holes, that also points to a basic design problem. The center of the follower transmits force from the cam to the pump. The only load that should be through the outside of the follower should be to resist rocking and to keep the surface touching the cam from rotating with it. Is there any chance the "skirt" area of the follower can hit something at either end of travel? How close to the oil holes does the cam lobe actually hit? Could it be a simple as being too close to the holes and being a stress riser?

This is extremely interesting. Would moving the 4 holes to the side of the follower help this? I'm not sure if oil would be able to circulate through it then, but if these holes were drilled very low (towards the base), seems like it could be a good idea.


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

Pulled the vac pump apart and found that I have the two piece B cam. 3/2006 build date w/ engine #07XXXX. Tried to pull the HPFP but just couldn't get at the second metal line coming off the bottom. Guess I'll jump back into it next weekend...


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
This is why i said what i said above about your suggestion.
I guess no one noticed the stress marks forming an inner circle at the weak points connecting the lubrication holes....








This is exactly the kind of early damage that leads to all those missing center piece photos.








My advise would be to change the follower ASAP to avoid cracking and all the known consequences....
But then again...its up to you....

Those do not look like stress cracks. If you can look at it at high magnification you can look for cracks. I have not seen any stock pump, or OEM pump spring retainers/wobbler cause stress cracking. From the picture it looks like coating wear. Stress cracks are never a perfect circle .. lol 
The pumps with stress cracks are from autotech pumps that have poor contact geometry with the inner part of the follower. The origin of the stress cracking appears to be the contact point with the autotech pump tip, not around the holes. Here is a picture from a greek site with good details on this particular failure mode. 








When GolfRS is done rolling his eyes he may take a step back and realize that he has been completely wrong about the importance of the OEM spring retainer. He just has it out for APR due to European pricing and will support anything else. 
http://www.carsinspections.com....html








The wear marks on the above photo shows wear marks away from the center. These are from the follower making contact with the edges of the cam due to tilting of the follower. The cam has a crown to it to contact in the center, but some tilting can cause this edge contact. If you measure the width of the cam you will find that is matches the diameter of these contact marks.
Everything is worn in together if you change the follower you risk damaging the coating from high contact stress. I would not change it unless those are indeed cracks. 
The follower has a DLC coating. I have SEM data showing this, and I have worked with the supplier that applies this coating on the VW parts. 
TiN coating is gold colored BTW, and very aggressive - it has a high coefficient of friction and would eat the cam. 
When the coating is worn through the base material can not support the contact loads and wear rate is very high. 

_Modified by enginerd at 10:37 AM 3-31-2008_


_Modified by enginerd at 10:39 AM 3-31-2008_


----------



## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

thanks for your post enginerd.
you state that once the coating is worn, that metal wear happens much faster....
i looked at my CF when installing my pump and the coating was nearly worn completely off...in a somewhat square pattern (basically straight lines from hole to hole).
the cam looked fine and so did the pump-side of the follower. 
there was some light sratches/scaring on the face of the follower but VW shows that to be "normal".
it looks as tho' my follower -after only 20k+ miles- is about to die.
pfft...i'm ording an new one today.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
The wear marks on the above photo shows wear marks away from the center. These are from the follower making contact with the edges of the cam due to tilting of the follower. The cam has a crown to it to contact in the center, but some tilting can cause this edge contact. If you measure the width of the cam you will find that is matches the diameter of these contact marks.

Which is exactly what I told GolfRS via PM. He just doesn't listen...

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_The follower has a DLC coating. I have SEM data showing this, and I have worked with the supplier that applies this coating on the VW parts.
TiN coating is gold colored BTW, and very aggressive - it has a high coefficient of friction and would eat the cam.
When the coating is worn through the base material can not support the contact loads and wear rate is very high. 


I'm sure syntrix thought this was TiNi because he owns some knife with that coating. You are correct that it's gold, it's just that a gold colored knife doesn't sell as well as a gray or black one.








As a side note, I'm sure you will have to explain a bit more since I'm sure this last statement will make a few unbelievers perk up as it would appear that we are seeing that there is a high wear rate (although I'd be interested if anyone still believes it's occuring _before_ the coating wears off.)


----------



## twinkers (Nov 22, 2007)

Just figured I'd post pics of mine. 10,000km stock pump Apr S1. Another 10,000km Apr S2. Another 10,000km Apr S2+Apr pump. 500km Apr pump + GT30.


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (twinkers)*

Hopefully I will be able to show how the VF pump treats the follower in the next few weeks.


----------



## glydingsoul (May 11, 2006)

i havent begun to read this whole thread, but i figured i'd add my experience with this engineering blunder.
i was driving in first gear when i heard a *pop* and a *wizz*. it sounded like a rapid depressurization. boy was i surprised when i got under the hood.
Cam Case:









MY Fuel Pump Cam Follower:








Cam Damage:









Fuel Pump Damage:









No other damage was found as of today, but who knows what this could have caused that is not yet visible. i just hope their fix is a permanent one. i guess i'll start looking at the aftermarket replacements after VW gets the car back to me.


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (glydingsoul)*

^ it's good to hear they're taking care of it. and letting you get pictures!!!


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Shue, 
Did you ever figure out your hesitation issue? Since you know that it's not fuel issue, where are you going to turn now? Also, when your hesitation occurs, does the car's RPM drop at all?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*










Looks like a "B" Cam failure on all stock parts


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Looks like a "B" Cam failure on all stock parts









Hopefully the Aftermarket cam companies will have a solution. Bob Q said that CAT cams is coming out with a cam for the 2LTFSI hopefully with a follower solution .







Bob.G


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable.
We shouldn't have to buy parts to fix a design flaw on these cars. We paid to get a fully functional vehicle and from what I'm seeing, even completely stock, we're not getting what we're paying for.
Why do I have to spend another thousand or so dollars just to make sure my car that I spent so much money on is reliable???
If I didn't just buy a bunch of parts for this thing, I would have traded in for another Honda. This has been my first and will be my LAST VW.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_









Looks like a "B" Cam failure on all stock parts









What do you make of the follower? 
IMO it looks as if the follower failed, not the cam.








Dave


----------



## jc[email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (crew219)*

follower was deff. what failed here causing the pump to take out the cam


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_If I didn't just buy a bunch of parts for this thing, I would have traded in for another Honda. This has been my first and will be my LAST VW.

lol. I think that's probably for the best! The MkV generation has brought into the fold a large number of people that will never be dubbers.


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
lol. I think that's probably for the best! The MkV generation has brought into the fold a large number of people that will never be dubbers.









x535436546


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
lol. I think that's probably for the best! The <INSERT VARIABLE HERE> generation has brought into the fold a large number of people that will never be dubbers.









If YEAR=1975, then VARIABLE=watercooled
If YEAR=1985, then VARIABLE=Mk2
If YEAR=1992, then VARIABLE=MkIII
If YEAR=2000, then VARIABLE=MkIV
If YEAR=2008, then VARIABLE=MkV


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Everything is worn in together if you change the follower you risk damaging the coating from high contact stress. I would not change it unless those are indeed cracks.
So, you're saying that we *shouldn't* change the follower as a routine preventive maintenance item? There's nothing to be done except hope for the best? I'd change the damn thing myself every 10k if it meant never having to worry about getting stranded, or spending $$$$.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I would have loved to have committed to dubs for the rest of my life...eventually going the way of Audi. I was IN LOVE with german engineering having come from reliable yet soulless hondas/acuras.
But how can you expect any newcomer to the dub scene to really invest emotion/time/money into it when the drivetrain even stock is unreliable?


----------



## fastconti (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_follower was deff. what failed here causing the pump to take out the cam

I don't know about that. From what I can see, the follower's contact face has been sheared off. This could be due to wear on the cam that allowed improper lubrication or contact angle between the cam and follower. The increase of tangential force against the follower could have sheared the face from the follower. However, this failure would be expedited by concave deformation of the follower face.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

For those who've seen failures...what kind of oil have you been using?


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_But how can you expect any newcomer to the dub scene to really invest emotion/time/money into it when the drivetrain even stock is unreliable?

Again, proving my point. Even if I had to change this cam and follower every 30k I still wouldn't sell it for any other make.







I like to have fun when I drive!
Just be patient for the aftermarket. This feels a bit like the great PCV and DV scare of 2007. And if there isn't any aftermarket, then keep a good eye on the parts and be ready to buy new ones. From what enginerd has been saying we should all be good at cam swaps eventually!


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (magilson)*

Edit: nevermind, dumb question


_Modified by OOOO-A3 at 1:26 PM 4-1-2008_


----------



## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

Can someone please post a photo , of the pump out of the car with the follower nearby just to see how it '' sits '' on the pump's spring ? Wouldn't be a solotion of making the spring sit directly on the followers inside base and let the pump's pin get in touch with the followers base diameter somehow .
I 'll try to post a drawing of what iam saying later


_Modified by NoTsipa at 9:23 AM 4-1-2008_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*

I highly doubt it could be done. The B cam lobe, although a separate piece, is still pressed on. Replacing the cam does not require removing the head in any of the instructions I've seen.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
lol. I think that's probably for the best! The MkV generation has brought into the fold a large number of people that will never be dubbers.








Oh sooooo true

_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
But how can you expect any newcomer to the dub scene to really invest emotion/time/money into it when the drivetrain even stock is unreliable?
His point exactly. I'd imagine most dubbers got into VW's the same way I did.......... Buying an old MK2 and learning to fix the POS every time it broke down. Then ya buy an MK3 thinking it's an upgrade, fix that POS and the cycle continues till ya finally get some money to buy a new one...............then ya fix that POS when it breaks down...lol. Well My GLI has been very reliable, but I don't think I could quit VWs even if it wasn't. Makes me feel bad that others have been less fortunate.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

So I guess I'll never be a real dubber.
Nevertheless, I invested a lot of time and money in this car, I DO love driving it every day, and would like to KEEP it, and keep it running. So lets get back on topic and figure out a way to stop these followers from failing!
I may not be as dedicated or obsessed as some of you, but we're all in this together!


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Was talking about this issue with DanGSR and he mentioned possibly using a nitrile coating...said it could be used to get over 100 rockwell hardness.
I have no idea what that means but maybe someone on here does and can provide some insight good or bad.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

It's possible that the new cam lobes are nitrided for hardness. 
Problem with nitride is that it causes carbides at the surface to protrude from the compressive stress and these can cut into the DLC causing coating fatigue failures and then the whole coating surface comes off and the wear rate goes up. 
They fixed the cam but now it eats the follower.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Who manufacturers the cam follower and the cam?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
It's possible that the new cam lobes are nitrided for hardness. 
Problem with nitride is that it causes carbides at the surface to protrude from the compressive stress and these can cut into the DLC causing coating fatigue failures and then the whole coating surface comes off and the wear rate goes up. 
They fixed the cam but now it eats the follower. 
What about the original suggestion (possibly in another thread) of cryo treating the follower? Seems like it could work, increasing the wearability without increasing the hardness much .


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

I am waiting to hear opinions on crotreating as I have access to control rate freezers that could do the slow Ramp down....Hold.....Ramp up cycle.


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Shue, 
Did you ever figure out your hesitation issue? Since you know that it's not fuel issue, where are you going to turn now? Also, when your hesitation occurs, does the car's RPM drop at all? 
`
yes, rpm and boost. it kind of bucks a couple times, then goes back to normal. i think i may try new coil packs and plugs. but i really think it may have something to do with the cold weather. maybe the gas around here sucks. i feel sometimes like i'm the only idiot in lower delaware buying 93 oct, so i'm probably getting 2 year old gas. LOL.
also, when i installed my apr downpipe, i didn't cut the downpipe to size, which causes the 2.5 piping to go inside the 3" piping about 4" or so. there could be some messed up turbulance at the reducer.
(edit: although, i think this was happening to me at stage 1 also. kind of ruling out the DP)
i dunno.

















_Modified by shue333 at 4:43 PM 4-1-2008_


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

sorry for the off topic but i have this two questions: so if u get a bigger turbo is this going to get worst by the time and is it going to mess up your car??


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (goin2fast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *goin2fast* »_I am waiting to hear opinions on crotreating as I have access to control rate freezers that could do the slow Ramp down....Hold.....Ramp up cycle.

Cryo is really for dimensional stability. Transforming retained austenite to martensite should already be done at the factory on a part like this during standard heat treatment. I doubt there would be any improvement in hardness or wear resistance from a cryo treatment. It might even cause coating problems from the slight difference in cte


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Anyone know if the cam follower part no. ) *06D 109 309 F* is an improved version of our follower ?
Found it in ETKA, and was just wondering....


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Here are some pics of my cam/follower. The black coating has been totally removed from the follower. The cam (B revision) is lightly scratched, though those may be removable "scuffs" as I didn't put a fingernail on it to verify. Should I eat ~60$ and throw in a new follower and see what happens in 5K? Should I try to involve the dealer? Should I drive to work every morning at 5500 rpm?







Any and all opinions will be greatly appreciated!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Heard a metallic noise coming from the engine today while going uphill.Tried to remove the pump but due to technical problems i couldn't.
I ordering the parts tomorrow for the checkup, and crossing my fingers.
Oh and another thing.Checking in ETKA i found i have B cam.But that was not the case when i opened the vacuum pump....
WTF ???


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

ETKA shows which part a dealership would replace your current part with. Not what part is in the car currently. Take a DV for example...currently, you might have the "C" version, but when you head into the dealership, they replace the part with the latest revision, "G".


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

How many miles SSBB? Also, any feeling or fuel cuts ever while driving? JC...great thread man!!!


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

33k miles, stock pump, very "mild" http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 2006MY APR S1 tune requesting 15 psi max.... no fuel cut, no noises, no drivability issues of any kind.


----------



## ExPunkStar (May 14, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

When replacing the bolts on the fuel pump, do you need to adhere to a certain torque spec, or just until its good and tight? Thanks for the pics, it looks pretty simple. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: (ExPunkStar)*

I had the same question http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also , after the fitment of the pump , do we need to let the air out of the fuel lines ? And how do we presurise the system again


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (NoTsipa)*

Here is some interesting info i came across today.....
I went to the dealer to order a new (2) follower, and upon mentioning the whole cam/follower deal, they told me they've never heard of the issue.......
Upon further investigation, we discovered (through VW's ordering system) that in the WHOLE OF GREECE, there have been only *4 ORDERS* for the particular part, and of course mine was unavailable, and had to be special ordered from Germany....
Does something smell fishy here ??
Maybe forums AREN'T the best place to get...informed ??
Who wants to bet an "upgraded" follower is about to pop up from somewhere ??


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

the us has tons of them, but they did make a revision....but all it consisted of was pre-oiling the follower to cam surface and then sticking it in a plastic container now


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

They are nice little containers that they come in now. On a side not...I can get the followers for 40.00 each + shipping and PP fees if anyone is interested.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (NoTsipa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoTsipa* »_I had the same question http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also , after the fitment of the pump , do we need to let the air out of the fuel lines ? And how do we presurise the system again








Just turn the key to "On" for a second, the noise you here is the system building pressure.

Take it for what it's worth, but I emailed the head of the motorsports division at 300Below, a company that specializes in cryo treatment....................
Hello,
I was wondering if I could possibly get an opinion on a specific use of cryogenic treatment. The new VW 2.0t FSI motor (direct injected) has a high pressure fuel pump that is driven directly off a lobe on the rear of the intake camshaft. The cam follower has been known to wear and crack under stress. Once this happens the fuel pumps plunger comes in contact with the cam lobe destroying the cam lobe and plunger. This has been happening with stock high pressure fuel pumps and and aftermarket hpfps only make it worse.
My question is whether these followers can benefit from cryo treatment. It's been said that cryo does not significantly harden the metal, which seems to be good since a harder follower would likely wear the cam more quickly. My thought is that the increased wear resistance would be helpful in this case. It's said that the follower has a factory DTC coating on the surface that contacts the cam lobe, would a cryo treatment cause any problems with this?
There is more information about the issue here on this forum thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
As you can see there are quite a few people who would be interested in a working solution.
Thank you, Justin
*The reply................*
Justin,

Thank you for your e-mail, and your interest in our Computer-Controlled Cryogenic Treatment. I have seven VW's myself, but they were made much before your problem existed. Mine are older, and made up of Rabbits, one Passat, one Jetta, and one Golf, and ranging in age from the mid-70's to my 1996 VW Passat turbocharged diesel station wagon.

You said that "cryo does not significantly harden the metal." When properly done, that is correct, and that is good because parts that become harder also become more brittle, and more apt to break. 
You said the cam follower has been known to wear and crack under stress. Stress causes parts to distort (like a piston becoming oval, or a brake rotor warping), and crack and break (again, like a brake rotor), but stress should not effect wear. Our Cryogenic Treatment stress-relieves, helping prevent distortion, cracking, and breaking. Our treatment also closes the grain structure, making the parts more abrasion-resistant, and reducing wear. 

I don't know how far you have your engine torn down, but I would consider Cryogenically Treating your problem parts, the cam follower, plunger, and camshaft, as it should make all of them more durable. We will treat the camshaft for $35.00 and if the cam follower and plunger are included, we will treat all three for $50.00. If you really wish to improve the engine, we will treat essentially all the parts of your VW 2.0 engine for only $450.00. Normally, Cryogenically Treated engines increase in horsepower by
2-6%, have less wear and breakage, and stay in service longer between rebuilds. All this results in reducing the cost of competition. I will attach the Corvette Enthusiast article that features the Corvette engine that we Cryo'd for the article. Please read the last paragraph of the article, as the author makes a stong statement regarding the value of our Cryogenic Treatment. I will also attach two of the three articles I wrote for The Hook, the largest tractor pulling magazine in the Nation, because what you will learn can be applied to other fields of motorsports. Thanks again, and I look forward to treating for you.

All the best,

Bob Reed
Motorsports Division Manager
Mining & Construction Specialist
300 Below, Inc.
2999 East Parkway Drive
Decatur, IL 62526
Phone: (800) 550-2796
Fax: (217) 423-3075
Bob Reed's e-mail: [email protected]
Website: http://www.300below.com
I don't think he looked too deeply into our specific situation, but it looks pretty cheap. He said they can treat the entire cam, follower and fuel pump plunger for $50. Nobody is gonna wanna go through all that, but I'm sure ya can send them a whole batch of followers and get em done for like $50.


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

sounds like a good idea to me.


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

I have 4 that I can contribute


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Decisions, Decisions...
Let me add this up...
1. Brand New Feul Pump From 1stVWParts --> $175-$250
2. Brand New KMD Pump (VW03 Classified) --> $240
3. Cyro-Treated Follower --> Roughly $60
Total --> Roughly $500...Unbelievable Price for a BRAND NEW UPGRADED FUEL PUMP
I might be down, depending on what kind of time frame are we looking at here?


_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 6:30 PM 4-3-2008_


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Took the apr pump out...its for sale in the parts area.
Stock pump is back in. New follower comes tomorrow.


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## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

Yikes. That is THIN.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Took the apr pump out...its for sale in the parts area.
Stock pump is back in. New follower comes tomorrow.

You do realize yours looks better than SSBB who has a stock pump and stage 1 software.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_Yikes. That is THIN.

Lol, what exactly is thin?
Dave


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Lol, what exactly is thin?
Dave

Dave, don't be foolish. Robin is able to detect thickness changes as little as 1 micron just by seeing a photo.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

At this time I have no plans to change the follower. This car is going back to stock as far as parts go. I just don't want to play this game anymore.


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## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

Do you fellas have eyes? Have you seen a new follower next to one that looks like that? There isn't much metal left.
No need to get sarcastic. We're all in the same boat here.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*

This is so disappointing it is not even funny....
Its so true what they say.VW stopped making Volkswagen's after the MKII


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

06 GTI 32k miles
- 15k stock
- 5k Revo Stage I
- 12k APR Stage I
Mobil 1 0W40 5k-10k, 10k-15k
Castrol 0w-30 every 3k after that.
Autocrossed regularly after 15k
"A" Cam








Minimal wear, if any








Cam bucket appears to have two "layers" of coating worn off. I forgot to take a picture of the inside of the follower but it looks the same as "Twinkers" on the previous page.








Pump looks normal.








I see no cause for alarm on my part, yet. I have more pictures of the cam lobe wear if anyone needs a (potentially) better view. I really don't see it as bad. Enjoy?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*

















It might be the difference in angles of the two photos, but does it look like the "B" lobe is slightly larger than the "A" lobe? Looking at the difference in the distances from the vacuum insert to the edge of the lobe. Most likely it's nothing, but just looked a little different.


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## coolstrybrah (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_This is so disappointing it is not even funny....
Its so true what they say.VW stopped making Volkswagen's after the MKII









All of this bidness with the follower and what not is really disappointing. I understand modding brings more unforseen problems than a stock car but even stock GTI have this defect occur...Big let down


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (my07blkgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *my07blkgti* »_
All of this bidness with the follower and what not is really disappointing. I understand modding brings more unforseen problems than a stock car but even stock GTI have this defect occur...Big let down









OK, here are MY pics from yesterday...
Follower has 43000 Km on it, 5000 km WITH the Autotech.
The inside has a "stamped" appearance, but NONE of the crescent/circular imprint everyone associates with the Autotech.Perfect circle.No visible cracks ANYWHERE, and no marks joining the holes..









And the outside.Normal wear for 43000 km, black coating seems to have gone in the middle (point of contact), but NO visual (or tactile) damage to the metal is found.Also, no cracks, and slight scuff marks at the periphery (as of sand paper).








Now i don't really care what is being said in here, since i've removed it, i'm replacing the follower.


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

i just got some new toys for my car. i will be posting pics of the cam/pump/follower this week. on a side note. is there anyway we can petition vw for a recall? I know honda people have done it before.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_i just got some new toys for my car. i will be posting pics of the cam/pump/follower this week. on a side note. is there anyway we can petition vw for a recall? I know honda people have done it before. 

I doubt it. I'm at 32k miles with (supposedly) the worst hardware I could have found and see no issues. This is why it's a TSB and not a recall. This thread, as with many forum threads, only highlights the problems. We've seen a handful of problems and there are thousands and thousands of 2.0T FSI motors out there. I think this is simply a case of forum induced fear.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_i just got some new toys for my car. i will be posting pics of the cam/pump/follower this week. on a side note. is there anyway we can petition vw for a recall? I know honda people have done it before. 

Seems like most recalls are due to safety issues. Also, it seems this part is not failing on all cars, but VW has noted it by issuing the TSB. On top of that, they'd have to actually come up with a solution! 
I know in the past dealerships honored commonly failing warranty items even after I was out of warranty. Case in point, MKIV window regulators. I believe I only paid half the labor and had parts for free.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
I doubt it. I'm at 32k miles with (supposedly) the worst hardware I could have found and see no issues. 

You really need to take the car to an expert if you see no issue with the pictures you posted. There are obvious signs of wear on your cam. The follower may be ok right now its buts only a matter of time before they each each other alive.


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## SleepinGLI (Jan 20, 2008)

I called my dealer yesterday asking about the updated cam and followers. I work at a shop and NORMALLY get a discount price.
Well i gave the guy my vin (talkin as though it was a customer's car) and he told me that the B cam CAME in that car, after arguing that i could assure him it wasnt, he told me they hadnt even had to replace any cams yet. So in the end he gave me a price, which is the same that alldata lists (like 415 for the cam, 55 for the follower)
GRRR...
As soon as my state tax return shows up im gunna order the new cam, follower, and aftermarket HPFP and do it all at once.... That way the cam and follower "break in" with the extra pressure of the hpfp, who knows, maybe they will get along then


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## SleepinGLI (Jan 20, 2008)

But the funny part is this...
He said they hadnt seen any 2.0t's come in with failed cam/follower, but yet he admitting to having a pretty "decent" number of them IN STOCK.
Wierd eh?
I worked at a ford dealer for 2 years and we NEVER stocked camshafts


_Modified by SleepinGLI at 7:19 AM 4-4-2008_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You really need to take the car to an expert if you see no issue with the pictures you posted. There are obvious signs of wear on your cam. The follower may be ok right now its buts only a matter of time before they each each other alive.

LOL. And who would that expert be? The Dealer? Sure as hell wouldn't consider any of the techs at my dealers experts at anything.







The fact is I'm posting no codes so there's nothing I _can_ do. Would that expert be a local shop that does motor work? What could they tell me since they would have no experience at all with this type of thing?
Is it worn? Sure, a bit. I'm at 32k on the "A" cam which is softer than the "B". I'll post a few more pictures later that show the cam from the wear surface. I have no doubt it will eventually wear out and I will eventually need a new cam and follower but I know given it's current wear rate that it will definitely occur post warranty so at this point I'll just start a swear jar cam fund. Or maybe I'll buy a Honda.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Quick comparison...At about 28500 miles...oem pump...








After about 4k miles with APR pump...








New follower comes in today...I'll be changing it out just to be safe...cam looks good so might as well.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
LOL. And who would that expert be? The Dealer? 

Not trying to be mean but yes they would be, they would know more then you or most at this point. The cam is obiviously starting to show signs of wear int he way the A cam does. They replaced many cams on cars when I worked at the dealer who only had driveability issues and not one single code so really you could get it replaced.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Not trying to be mean but yes they would be, they would know more then you or most at this point. The cam is obiviously starting to show signs of wear int he way the A cam does. They replaced many cams on cars when I worked at the dealer who only had driveability issues and not one single code so really you could get it replaced.

Ah, no they really wouldn't. I'm serious. Dubbers from my area drive to the Kansas City dealership just to avoid the one in Springfield...


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*












_Modified by [email protected] at 7:24 AM 4-4-2008_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_








_Modified by [email protected] at 7:24 AM 4-4-2008_

You failed at your RROD reference.








Dave


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
Ah, no they really wouldn't. I'm serious. Dubbers from my area drive to the Kansas City dealership just to avoid the one in Springfield...

Don't recall saying what dealer to go to, But I'm also not the one saying that an obviously worn came looks ok to me.
We can split hairs on which dealer is good or not, sorry but no dealer is horrible they may just have some bad techs, or you can work on getting your car fixed.


_Modified by iThread at 8:53 AM 4-4-2008_


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
You failed at your RROD reference.








Dave









you sure about that?


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_








you sure about that?

Yep I am quite sure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X...blems
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/907534
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxZOKpDzYw








Sorry, photoshopped pics from teamxbox don't count.








Dave


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_

Sorry, photoshopped pics from teamxbox don't count.








Dave

Well you finally got me I guess







... Don't own, plan to own, or even play xbox..
And honestly I don't see a reference anywhere that says it can't be green only that quadrant is not red.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Don't recall saying what dealer to go to, But I'm also not the one saying that an obviously worn came looks ok to me.

I'll post up a differnt picture later. Dave asked me to do that as well since he pointed out the darker area which is actually a shadow.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We can split hairs on which dealer is good or not, sorry but no dealer is horrible they may just have some bad techs, or you can work on getting your car fixed.

Considering they had a 14% satisfaction rating last year and it hasn't been over 25% in the last few years I'd say you're wrong and need to admit that it's quite possible I might now better given that I live here and you do not.


_Modified by iThread at 8:54 AM 4-4-2008_


----------



## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*

are we all done now? we get it all out of our system? its friday, but there's still work to do. 
as entertaining as it is to watch you guys bicker over who's more qualified to act like an e-tech...plz don't take yourselves too seriously.
thanks to everyone that has offered help...including those that have tainted there help with 'tude








i'm still discovering the quirks of VW let alone the details of our motor in general.
when you kids get all together like this and can't play in the same sand box together, it makes a bit difficult for those of us looking for answers to take any of you seriously.
(there hangs an aire-de-stench everytime you-all make a post even when it would have info that could once and for all solve world poverty and hunger)
plz stay on topic, or at least make your post much more funny


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (2zzge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2zzge* »_
who's more qualified to act like an e-tech...


some of us (well one) are actually trained certified vw/audi techs...


----------



## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

i have great respect for you and your knowledge man. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
...but even so, one would have to admit that it becomes hard to take ANYONE seriously when the focus becomes a cyber-boxing match instead of simply working towards a "fix" for our problem.
you don't have to defend what you know is truth...it is always found out. tho' some may never give you credit for knowing it and sharing it, that isn't the point is it? the point is; we need to come to a resolute solution.
plz (everyone- me included) don't get caught up in, and side-tracked by who should be crowned "king richard".
the real "king" is the one(s) that have more than just ideas, but they have put good ideas into a real and genuine, practical solution.
thanks again chris (and anyone else who's willing) for all your help so far. i believe you're genuine in your attempt to find us a fix for this. plz continue http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chudzikb (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I had my car in yesterday for an inspection and a few other minor items at the local dealer. I asked their service guys if they have seen this problem yet. The answer was once. I hope they are right. They said I spend too much time on the net! Valid point, probably for all of us...


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside ([email protected])*

Ok folks, I just cleaned up some of the crap that was polluting this topic. The discussion has been great for 11 pages, let's try and keep going that way.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (chudzikb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chudzikb* »_I had my car in yesterday for an inspection and a few other minor items at the local dealer. I asked their service guys if they have seen this problem yet. The answer was once. I hope they are right. They said I spend too much time on the net! Valid point, probably for all of us...

VW dealers will have seen it a lot less then Audi dealers since the cars were out almost a year sooner at Audi. We had seen a number of failures on A4s, maybe one A3 during the time i was last at a dealer and this was before the bulletin was even out. Actually when I stopped at the dealer down here one day for some parts and was in the shop they had an A3 ripped apart for the cam.


----------



## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Don't own, plan to own, or even play xbox..

You make Master Chief cry.


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## sinned (Jan 28, 2006)

I was searching around about cryo treatment and found the following link,
http://www.ws6.com/cryo.htm 
I was thinking maybe cryo treating even just the follower would reduce wear, especially for people with the B cams which are supposedly harder than the A cams. It seems like the follower fails first causing accelerated damage to the cams, so keeping the integrity of the follower with the cryo treatment might at the least prolong the life of the components, subsequently replacing the follower every 50K miles or something...
Just an idea...


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Anyone have some advise for me? If I throw in a new follower what sort of grease/oil should I apply to it? What sort of run in will it require? How much faster will this one get chewed up?


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## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: (sinned)*

here's an article I read a while back about cryogenic treatment:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.....html


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*

more sample photos, b cam in this car.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (chris[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_more sample photos, b cam in this car. 









Looks like you can clearly see an imprint from the plunger tip on the AT follower. I wonder what it'd look like in 5k more miles. OTOH, the OEM looks great.
Dave


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Well you finally got me I guess







... Don't own, plan to own, or even play xbox..
And honestly I don't see a reference anywhere that says it can't be green only that quadrant is not red.
lol while the idea was funny, he is right. I've fixed 4 360s now and there is no green LED in the RROD


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Looks like you can clearly see an imprint from the plunger tip on the AT follower. I wonder what it'd look like in 5k more miles. OTOH, the OEM looks great.
Dave


Dave, I'm actually really curious but do you own an aftermarket fuel pump and/or have run one in your car? Have you removed and installed and personally inspected any cam followers running stock or modified pumps from any company?
Since its come up that people are just diagnosing from the pictures on the internet I am curious to see what exactly you are basing your opinions of good and bad on?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Since its come up that people are just diagnosing from the pictures on the internet I am curious to see what exactly you are basing your opinions of good and bad on?

I'd like to hear the same from you? And none of that confidentiality clause you hide behind. Let's see some pictures of progressive wear or at least a background history of a car and the resulting wear you noticed on the follower and cam. If people are going to praise you for helping the community I'd at least like to see you actually doing that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_lol while the idea was funny, he is right. I've fixed 4 360s now and there is no green LED in the RROD


I understand its wrong, the point was the idea is funny and really that people keep ignoring that it is the major point of failure we might as well just start to treat it like a joke. The simple fact that this was still ignored and the topic avoided just further shows the motives and intentions of some members here. 
Ok back to not figuring this out.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
I'd like to hear the same from you? And none of that confidentiality clause you hide behind. Let's see some pictures of progressive wear or at least a background history of a car and the resulting wear you noticed on the follower and cam. If people are going to praise you for helping the community I'd at least like to see you actually doing that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

hmm, well one I don't recall dave showing any pictures. So I don't see why I need to. Two I can't just break an NDA because you asked me to.
I have held in my hand failed followers from most companies, doesnt' even mean I have picturs of them.
I have removed and installed countless aftermarket followers and stock followers. Some of which perfectly fine some of which in both cases definitly not.
I have now given you what I asked Dave for, you asked me for different and I've already made it clear legally I can't. Sorry you don't like that, but its not about what you like its about what doesn't get me fired or in court.
Edit when saying follower I meant follower being used with stock or aftermarket pump.
As for what I have helped with.
Well I've shown instances were certain companies who stand to gain from knocking another product were actually wrong and it was a cam failure not a pump failure despite expert opinion.
I was the first to have pics of an A vs B cam and clarify the 1 vs 2 piece design.
I was the first to bring up the excessive wear on the front face.
And i was the first to point out where the actual failure is occuring.
Many others have brought up good points and found out information and provided it, not saying people aren't, certainly takes some balls for you to demand proof that I've actually been helping.


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:22 AM 4-4-2008_


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_more sample photos, b cam in this car. 










Those look pretty good. I wouldn't have changed either of them. 
For guys with the worn out followers, don't forget if you put a new follower on a car that has a worn follower it is gong to wear the second follower much faster as the initial surface finish on the cam, and the contact stress is higher. As much as you guys want to believe it, just changing the 40$ follower is not going to fix the situation. 
If you change cam/follower you have to break it in real nice as well. Running WOT with 300+ whp with an upgraded pump and new follower is going to fail the coating and start the clock on accelerated wear. A fresh oil change and some moly lube on the cam/follower followed by a few hundred miles of old lady driving with low rpm and load is the best bet.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Enginerd...in my case...going back to stock completely including pump...would you recommend I change my follower based on the pics I provided?


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## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Figured I'd post these pics just for the sake of more examples.
This follower was in the car running Revo STG2 for 29k miles. When pulled to install an Autotech FP, it looked totally fine. 700 miles of STG2+ testing later:
























I've since put the stock pump back in, and replaced the follower with a new piece. Just did a track day with the new follower and stock pump, it will come out Monday for inspection. I'll update this thread with pix.


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_If you change cam/follower you have to break it in real nice as well. Running WOT with 300+ whp with an upgraded pump and new follower is going to fail the coating and start the clock on accelerated wear. A fresh oil change and some moly lube on the cam/follower followed by a few hundred miles of old lady driving with low rpm and load is the best bet. 


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (magilson)*

Folks,
I have been following this topic quietly for about a week as I am researching things before I buy a new car. Anyway, I wonder if anyone has reported similar issues with the S3 engine or the 35th anniversary GTI engines from Europe.
If my memory serves me right, those engines have different turbo's and generate more power. I wonder if they have different cam followers...


----------



## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (vasillalov)*

The other idea that comes up to my mind:
Someone needs to start doing oil analysis every oil change to monitor the levels of wear metals. The best choice is someone with stock engine who is about to install HPFP soon. It will be interesting to see what kind of metals are being deposited in the oil. Possibly, someone might come up with a replacement follower made out of a stronger material...


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## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_pics 








@ the shallow depth of field in those pics. Macro, obviously - what camera?


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## SofaKing_Uro (Aug 8, 2007)

How can i tell whether I have an A or B cam? Also do i need to be carefull with the HPFP when i have it disconected, to prevent any contamination?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OOOO-A3* »_







@ the shallow depth of field in those pics. Macro, obviously - what camera?









Believe he was just using my rebel Xt (350D) with the kit lens that day. But he has an xti (400D)


----------



## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*

Chris' old school digital-rebel w/ the 18-55mm kit lens. EXIF data is stripped, I think.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_EXIF data is stripped, I think.

It is.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (SofaKing_Uro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SofaKing_Uro* »_How can i tell whether I have an A or B cam? Also do i need to be carefull with the HPFP when i have it disconected, to prevent any contamination?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3754451


----------



## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
It is.

Blame photoshop's "save for web" plugin







I'll try and take some better pix tonight.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Dave, I'm actually really curious but do you own an aftermarket fuel pump and/or have run one in your car? Have you removed and installed and personally inspected any cam followers running stock or modified pumps from any company?
Since its come up that people are just diagnosing from the pictures on the internet I am curious to see what exactly you are basing your opinions of good and bad on?


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

I am going to see if I can find a micrometer and measure my old followers face thickness compared to a new one. Might not prove anything buy also might be good information.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (sinned)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sinned* »_I was searching around about cryo treatment and found the following link,
http://www.ws6.com/cryo.htm 
I was thinking maybe cryo treating even just the follower would reduce wear, especially for people with the B cams which are supposedly harder than the A cams. It seems like the follower fails first causing accelerated damage to the cams, so keeping the integrity of the follower with the cryo treatment might at the least prolong the life of the components, subsequently replacing the follower every 50K miles or something...
Just an idea...
The usefulness of cryo treatment is gonna be based on the effectiveness of the heat treatment from the factory
Heat treatment turns the retained austenite to martensite which is the more durable grain structure. The better the heat treatment the more austenite is transformed to martensite. Cryo just helps transform more austenite to martensite. So obviously the better the heat treatment worked in the first place the less the cryo is gonna help in the end. I can't see how it would hurt though, since it doesn't increase the hardness, brittleness or abrasiveness.
My follower still looks pretty good after 30k miles on the stock pump, so me trying it would take quite a while to produce any results. If I get an aftermarket pump, I'll be getting the follower cryoed


----------



## zRockstar (Apr 2, 2008)

I know that this is probably somewhere in the 12 pages of stuff, but does anyone have a link to the follower/lobe TSB?
EDIT: Found it, to those just joining in:
http://hardwired.homeip.net/VW...r.pdf
Thank NoRegrets for that one.


_Modified by zRockstar at 8:41 PM 4-4-2008_


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (zRockstar)*

was a new follower introduced with the "b" cam revision? or are they using the same follower that was used with the softer "a" cam?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shortydub)*

I took a look at the audi a8 fsi with hitachi HPFP's to see how it's all setup:








03H 127 307 A


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*

Here is the 3.2l v6 fsi cam follower. Couldnt find the part number.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_I took a look at the audi a8 fsi with hitachi HPFP's to see how it's all setup:








03H 127 307 A
 
This prob on the V-8 FSI because it was built to rev highe r= roller follower IMO.







Bob.G


----------



## Mohudsolo (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Why does that pic show the roller facing the pump instead of the cam?
The info that has been posted on the new variation of the 2.0T that was at the NY auto show indicates it also has a roller cam follower. Think they changed that just for fun?
Any idea what sort of loading is on these followers versus a typical valvespring load? I know I have taken motors apart with well over 100k and in most cases the lifters looked virtually new along with the cam lobes. Look at the valve adjusting shims on the old motors; they hold up so well they can be swapped into other motors as the rest of the valvetrain wears.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Mohudsolo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mohudsolo* »_Why does that pic show the roller facing the pump instead of the cam?
The info that has been posted on the new variation of the 2.0T that was at the NY auto show indicates it also has a roller cam follower. Think they changed that just for fun?
Any idea what sort of loading is on these followers versus a typical valvespring load? I know I have taken motors apart with well over 100k and in most cases the lifters looked virtually new along with the cam lobes. Look at the valve adjusting shims on the old motors; they hold up so well they can be swapped into other motors as the rest of the valvetrain wears.


Looks like ETKA just put it on there wrong lol. 
in regards to comparing the loads from the valvetrain to the pump there are several things to consider. 
Valvetrain loads are mostly form the sprign force which is generally so many lbs/inch applied in a linear fashion. At low lift points you have low loads and at the highest lift you have the maximum force and there is a linear increasing rate. 
With a pump you have almost full load immediately as it begins pumping and this continues the full duration of pumping. So you have peak load early and for a long duration. 
Also you have 3 lobes per cam, so 3 times the number of pumping events - high ramp rates etc. Also the peak load is maintained over the nose of the cam and for part of the down stroke. On valvetrains the load just after the nose drops very low from the inertia effects and the cam stress drops off quickly. This is why you break in valve cams at a medium rpm level the loads are actually reduced with speed. This doesn't really happen with the pump cam. 
The roller lifter on some audi applications is probably from runnign 160+ bar more than anything. All the new systems will be running 200+ bar pressures in the next 5 years. 
The roller followers will have a locating pin to keep them aligned in the cylinder head, so they wont' eb a direct drop in without modifying the head or usign some kind of sleeve insert with a guide. Also the operating height and spring rate required will increase with a roller lifter. 



_Modified by enginerd at 10:16 AM 4-6-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*

we need a company to design a new roller follower for us as well as an adapter to space out the pump and a kit to modify the cylinder head..the 3.6 fsi follower wouldn't fit inside the hole in our cylinder head anyway it is slightly wider


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

do you have a shot of the anti rotation feature?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

that's going to be the difficult part about an upgrade kit. 
you could ream out the 1.8T head and machine a groove in there but there are few out there who could do this. 
Best bet is a smaller diameter follower and a sleeve with the ID machined with the groove. 
The sleeve would need a flange to locate the groove properly in the head, and space up the pump. This could be bolted in at home. You would need an upgraded spring to compensate for the mass of the roller follower. The costs associated with making this precision part would be high. Precision ID/OD grinding
I am not sure if the cam lobe would need to change. Usually the cam has a crown on flat tappets, and the tappet is flat. On roller tappets you have a flat cam and a crown on the roller. If both are crowned (roller tappet on a flat tappet cam) then depending on crown radius you might still have too much contact stress. 
I am curious to see what VW will do about the failures with the B style cams on stock cars. They may just chalk it up to a coating adhesion batch issue. I wonder what the failure rate really is - the tex often makes things sound much worse than they really are. 



_Modified by enginerd at 1:17 PM 4-6-2008_


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
the tex often makes things sound much worse than they really are. 


Normally I agree, however in this case there are actually a lot more failures with aftermarket pumps then being posted here...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*

i like this idea and i think plenty of people would be interested in dropping the cash after their are people willing to drop 1200 for a whole apr hpfp


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Its not going to be cheap thats for sure and probably will entail exchanging cam chain housings for ones already modifed.
Jeff price me one tomorrow, need to see if its cheaper just to buy a used head or work with a new one.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

you know anyone with etka? if so i can check price right now from home if you can get me the part number


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Its not going to be cheap thats for sure and probably will entail exchanging cam chain housings for ones already modifed.
Jeff price me one tomorrow, need to see if its cheaper just to buy a used head or work with a new one.

you know I didn't think of that - since it's not really in the head you could just rework the cam housings and sell them as a core charge. That's perfect. 
ream the existing hole to hold the centerline position, and mill the guide groove in the same chucking. Does the vr use a steel sleeve, or they ride right in the aluminum?
depending on the change in operating height you may need a very simple spacer, or a more complicated one. The pump pilots in the head so the spacer can be a pita.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Just wanted to post up my pics from yesterday...not sure if you can tell anything from the pics...my camera blows. 
The Cam ("B" Version) have some light scratches on it, but looked to be in good shaped (right in line with the others posted on here). 
















The inside of the follower looked to be in very good shape (stock pump 40k miles...GIAC 35k). The outside was showing signs of wear, the marks around the holes are kind of worrying me a little. Definitely something I will check in another 5k miles (and every 5k from here on out).
















The tip of the pump looked great. Not damage as to be expected.










_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 1:53 PM 4-6-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*

i have never seen a vr in person takin apart but i would assume it is alluminum...i may have to tear a couple cars apart if i have time at work tomorrow


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

What i'm wondering is why Autotech didn't follow the OEM piston tip design, and went with a simple tip.
On a side note, i just "modified" the Autotech tip slightly, to see the effect it will have on the inside of the follower......


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I somehow picture you taking apart a perfectly good brand new car to look inside lol. 
measure the ID so you know the clearance used on the Roller follower design, also the groove design depth/radius. 
If you can take a pic of the cam surface. This may not be all that crazy an idea afterall. VW is probably working on the same thing. oem pump or otherwise I bet there are plenty of people going to the dealer under warrantee for this.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_What i'm wondering is why Autotech didn't follow the OEM piston tip design, and went with a simple tip.
On a side note, i just "modified" the Autotech tip slightly, to see the effect it will have on the inside of the follower......

they were using a titanium retainer to keep the weight of the piston down so they could use the oem spring and slightly heavier larger stepped piston. they got the weight down but lost the oem wobbler feature.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
they were using a titanium retainer to keep the weight of the piston down so they could use the oem spring and slightly heavier larger stepped piston. they got the weight down but lost the oem wobbler feature. 

Do you by any chance have the analogy of piston length vs pump efficacy ?
Meaning how much of the pump's ability is lost or gained if the piston is longer or shorter by (for example) 1mm ?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
they were using a titanium retainer to keep the weight of the piston down so they could use the oem spring and slightly heavier larger stepped piston. they got the weight down but lost the oem wobbler feature. 

Is this along the same line of thought that the KMD pump uses as well?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

At these low pressures the concern for piston length in the bore is more related to siezures and wear than bore leakage. Shortening the length decreases the L/D ratio and the tip and edge loads go way up. It's also very difficult (nearly impossible) to cut the end of the piston without screwing up the heat treat and the OD geometry.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_At these low pressures the concern for piston length in the bore is more related to siezures and wear than bore leakage. Shortening the length decreases the L/D ratio and the tip and edge loads go way up. It's also very difficult (nearly impossible) to cut the end of the piston without screwing up the heat treat and the OD geometry. 


In layman's terms ?
If someone was to shorten the piston tip and add a spacer making up for the total length, would that have any adverse effects ?


----------



## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

Would it be possible to machine a new HPFP housing to utilize the new HPFP with roller follower from the new CCTA engine? 150bar anyone?








From _glydingsoul_


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_you know anyone with etka? if so i can check price right now from home if you can get me the part number


its on my other laptop but I'm not in the mood to break it out.. tomorrow is fine.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
On a side note, i just "modified" the Autotech tip slightly, to see the effect it will have on the inside of the follower......

I did some stuff to mine also. we'll see when I pull it.


----------



## dietcokefiend (Jul 11, 2007)

Has anyone successfully replaced their follower after a previous one had started wearing, and had the new one hold up for good amount of time? On that same note, did the cam surface change texture, or show further signs of wear?
One of these days I am going to pop open the side and see what version of the cam I have and also check for wear, but right now its a mixture of fear for what I could find, and lack of garage space keeping me out. 
While I understand that you are going to hear about more failures than good stuff online, this does seem like a problem that might crop up on any car depending on the variables at play.
Now for those if you saying that replacing a follower on a pre-worn cam is a bad thing, and both cam and follower need to be replaced at the same time... how can that be?
I think can think of many cars that use shims on the followers that get replaced to adjust for clearances, and those dont wear down the lobe surfaces. This has been going on for ages, some including regular maintenance adjustments, but those dont have wear problems with one surface being new, and the other being worn as long as the cam surface is undamaged.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (dietcokefiend)*

i just checked out a 3.6 fsi passat and the the fuel pump is directly to the cylinder head unlike our cars where it is bolted to the side cover, from what i understand the aligning tab on the cam follower is held in place by something inside the cylinder head not the actual head its self...not sure what though


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

so you're saying its actually running off of one of the valve camlobes?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

no it is prob running off a cam lobe like the 2L fsi but it's location is different their for the pump as actually bolted to the cylinder head


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: Pressure drop (plutoR)*

i would check your cam follower and cam lobe yourself don't trust them, you are loosing fuel pressure for a reason


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: Pressure drop (plutoR)*

how can they tell if the cam lobes are worn down threw the cam follower hole? you need to look at it from the side or measure the lift and make sure it's proper


----------



## b00stin_02917 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: Pressure drop ([email protected])*

ugh today wasnt good... i decided to check my build date hoping id get lucky and rock a B cam setup.. well build date = 03/06







my buddy has a 01/06 build! ha ha now i deffently have to check mine and his..


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Pressure drop ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i would check your cam follower and cam lobe yourself don't trust them, you are loosing fuel pressure for a reason

But I though Chris said the best people to take it to is your dealer?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: Pressure drop (plutoR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *plutoR* »_Ok , JC I am with you there. 
Prior to the HPFP mod , I had no issues - a bit of low pressure here and there but not down to zero bar . Wouldnt a cam issue have reared it's head then ?

Its probably the KMD pump seizing.There was another person with that issue in here.
Remove and check the pump motion, and contact KMD for a replacement.


----------



## ExPunkStar (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Pressure drop (b00stin_02917)*

What build dates are affected? My car was purchased July 31, 2006. How do I verify my build date?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Build Dates seem to not play a factor in which Cam a car has...unless the car is an '05 Audi (experts...please feel free to correct). My car is an 06 Passat with a build date 2/12/06 and I have the "B" Cam.


----------



## vRStu (Sep 11, 2006)

Guys a quick thought here - 
When you pull your pumps and fit the new ones are you putting CYL 1 at TDC?
I'm just wondering if you don't put it to TDC and the first rotation of the lobe strikes the follower on the not hardened face it can cause a stress fracture.


----------



## dietcokefiend (Jul 11, 2007)

The way the cam is shaped it is 3 equal peaks that would the follower on the same hardened surface each time, non cycle dependent.


----------



## vRStu (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: (dietcokefiend)*

Ok, but I have read a couple of DIY on the FP and none mention TDC (Including post one of this thread) however the Skoda Factory manual I have is quite explicit about it.
Has anyone checked the Bentley for the GTi?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (vRStu)*

I'll be honest, when I did my pump no directions existed. I wasn't at TDC, unless it just happened to be there out of luck. The install went w/o a hitch.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*

x2
_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_I wasn't at TDC, unless it just happened to be there out of luck. The install went w/o a hitch.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_x2

x3
Just had to push it in a bit to tighten the screws


----------



## ExPunkStar (May 14, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Build Dates seem to not play a factor in which Cam a car has...unless the car is an '05 Audi (experts...please feel free to correct). My car is an 06 Passat with a build date 2/12/06 and I have the "B" Cam.

Well my door panel is labeled: Mfg. Date 05/06. Guess I need to pop off the vac pump now...
Also wondering for those of you who have serious or abnormal wear to the cam or follower, did you baby the car and break in your engine for the first 1000 miles?


_Modified by ExPunkStar at 3:11 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (ExPunkStar)*

my cam lobe was all silver, and everyone else's is black on top. should that concern me?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shue333)*

Angle of photo or worn followers.
It should be black for the most part. That's the protective 'first layer of defense' coating.


----------



## SleepinGLI (Jan 20, 2008)

mine was all silver as well... Which is why im taking it in. However if they do the camshaft/follower, im going to install a hpfp as soon as i get it back.. Gunna try to break in the cam/follower WITH an aftermarket HPFP and see if that makes any difference


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Angle of photo or worn followers.
It should be black for the most part. That's the protective 'first layer of defense' coating.

i'm so confused


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (shue333)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shue333* »_
i'm so confused








\
nevermind. i just re-read the TSB. i got it


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Anyone wants a brand new follower, $45 shipped! Let me know.


----------



## BLKSUNSHINE (Sep 21, 2007)

I may be selling a "brand new" in the box APR F/P.. not sure if anyone is interested, send me a PM.. at this point.. looks like you need to pull the pump every 5k miles, change oil every 3k, and keep good stock on cam followers from the dealer..







very dissapointed... I'm sure there will be a future resolution.


----------



## dietcokefiend (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_Anyone wants a brand new follower, $45 shipped! Let me know.

Spares or have you decided not to replace yours?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I bought it with the intention of replacing it, but I am trading in the car.
pic...


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

I have a question for anyone. I'm trying to take off my stock pump. On the bottom of the pump, there are two fittings. I got the one on the right off no problem. But how do I remove the one on the left? It appears to be a banjo fitting I believe. I cannot fit my 17mm open end in b/t the pump and the fitting to take it off the pump. HELP!


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeepNGLI* »_I have a question for anyone. I'm trying to take off my stock pump. On the bottom of the pump, there are two fittings. I got the one on the right off no problem. But how do I remove the one on the left? It appears to be a banjo fitting I believe. I cannot fit my 17mm open end in b/t the pump and the fitting to take it off the pump. HELP!

8mm triple square bit


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

I've tried about four stores and could not get that bit. Also, there's no room to fit anything in there. Any suggestions?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

just gotta keep trying with the 8mm triple square...it was a real pita to get off, but much easier to put back on.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_just gotta keep trying with the 8mm triple square...it was a real pita to get off, but much easier to put back on.

Loosen the lines where they bolt to the manifold. 
if you can get in there loosen the lines where they meet the rail.
Disconnect the hose from the pcv to the oil filter housing at the pcv and push it down a little to make room.
Loosen the Pump and pull it back from the head. This should allow you to get the triple square in their easier.


----------



## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeepNGLI* »_I've tried about four stores and could not get that bit. Also, there's no room to fit anything in there. Any suggestions?

i bought a set off ebay. cheap as hell. delivered in 2 or 3 days http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: (shue333)*

thanks guy. I finally got it using the normal long shaft 8mm triple point(the ones used for the sway bars), a deep socket and swivel extension. Big PITA, but got it. KMD rebuild is in!


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*

Outstanding http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*

Does APR have upgraded fuel pump performance software for the old k04?


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*

yes, Arin they do. They came out with it awhile ago. They don't just make software for your new fancy pants S3 KO4


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*

or you could get setup like #8 in this golfmkv howto guide.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*

I'd honestly like to see how they stack up side by side on the dyno or closed course since I was so close to buying one. How far are you from philly these days? We may be able to set something up during the summer.


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*

ha, I'm down. I'm back in NJ now. Only about an hour from philly.
There's no doubt that yours is prolly faster, but I bet you'd be surprised how quick mine is with only a 2.5" exhaust too and all my Forge goodies.
APR and FORGE FTW.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*

I'm not surprised at all. I was inches away from buying one 2nd hand.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

No need to set any tdc when reinstalling, the cam pos sensor knows what lobe it's on and you can't damage the pump from timing. It might be easier to bolt down when the cam lobe is on the lower end ofthe stroke due to spring loads. 
You can check the cam health with a dial indicator down the hole for the follower. You should have a full 5mm of lift on the stock cam lobe when turning the car over by hand. 
JC - did you get a shot of the VR lifter bore?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
pic...









LOL...even a new Follower has an expiration date!!! I know it's probably due to the pre-oil, but does anyone else think that's funny.










_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 7:15 PM 4-8-2008_


----------



## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
LOL...even a new Follower has an expiration date!!! I know it's probably due to the pre-oil, but does anyone else think that's funny.











I would if I didn't own a 2.0T


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
LOL...even a new Follower has an expiration date!!! I know it's probably due to the pre-oil, but does anyone else think that's funny.









_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 7:15 PM 4-8-2008_

every part vw/audi sells has an expiration date, they want to make sure current parts are at the dealers so when their are updated parts etc. people get new parts instead of old ones http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

I pulled my cam follower tonight (finally with the car again). You guys need to start buying if they fit. JC is checking measurements (diameter).
pics:
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...0.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...1.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...2.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...3.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...4.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...5.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...6.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...7.jpg
http://s233279429.onlinehome.u...8.jpg

as noted there is many more holes for oil passage, and the face of the follower looks absolutely mirror finish. inside you can see the isolated raised portion for contact with the piston of the pump. this follower has been used for 15k miles total. 5k with the stock pump, 7k with the APR kit, and 3k with the Autotech kit. so unusual wear whatsoever. looks gorgeous.
for those that are concerned with the raised portion, get a then washer for each bolt and space the pump off the right amount - maybe 2mm? just a thought. I offered to send this to JC to check out if its the right diameter.


_Modified by VW03Getta at 8:33 PM 4-10-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

I'll have lots of questions eventually but I'm interested to see what the results are for the first users. Any info you'd like to share on it? Coating, materials, oil flow, etc?
BTW, has the Mazda community had problems with the follower at all?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

is the distance from pump head to cam still exactly the same with this follower?
Didnt realize it was used! Looks great! Is this on a 2.0TFSI or your speed3?


----------



## b00stin_02917 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_I'll have lots of questions eventually but I'm interested to see what the results are for the first users. Any info you'd like to share on it? Coating, materials, oil flow, etc?
BTW, has the Mazda community had problems with the follower at all?

I've pm'd jc and asked him this before also... so far they havnt..There pumps are almost the same, but there followers have a raised point in the middle. I think this is what jc told me since i no longer have the im history... check out http://www.mrlilguycdfps.com/Site/Welcome.html he rebuilds the ms3 pumps not to shabby 840 or somthing when you send yours in.. It would be nice to try to adapt somehow there follower technology to ours.


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

its from my speed3, but I want to get it on a 2.0t FSI car. JC is going to reply to me, hopefully the diameter is the same. This is 28mm in diameter (roughly). I don't have more information on materials, but this definitely looks a 1000x better than any of you guys followers.
There is no follower issues whatsoever in the DISI motors, and the cam tri-lobe is the same as the FSI's - FYI. The pumps are identical, so I would think that the small difference in stroke would not hurt.


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

*Re: (b00stin_02917)*


_Quote, originally posted by *b00stin_02917* »_
I've pm'd jc and asked him this before also... so far they havnt..There pumps are almost the same, but there followers have a raised point in the middle. I think this is what jc told me since i no longer have the im history... check out http://www.mrlilguycdfps.com/Site/Welcome.html he rebuilds the ms3 pumps not to shabby 840 or somthing when you send yours in.. It would be nice to try to adapt somehow there follower technology to ours.

lol that site is mine!
I was going to offer something for the VAG guys too.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_There is no follower issues whatsoever in the DISI motors, and the cam tri-lobe is the same as the FSI's - FYI. The pumps are identical, so I would think that the small difference in stroke would not hurt. 

But is the seating face of the pump to the axis of the cam the same? That's as big a question as the follower diameter IMO...


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

that is a good concern, the cam is always rotating, therefore every 3rd of a revolution with the cam will be exerting peak force to the follower.
all you guys can do is try it out. I don't own an FSI car, so I can't try it out.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_
lol that site is mine!
I was going to offer something for the VAG guys too. 

Lol, so you buy $250 pump components, take 15 minutes to assemble them and then charge the customer $300 on top of that? 
No thanks . . . . 
I like how for another $300, you'll provide video of the pump "working" on your car. 
Dave


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

Keep us updated. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Lol, so you buy $250 pump components, take 15 minutes to assemble them and then charge the customer $300 on top of that? 
No thanks . . . . 
I like how for another $300, you'll provide video of the pump "working" on your car. 
Dave

easy killer


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Lol, so you buy $250 pump components, take 15 minutes to assemble them and then charge the customer $300 on top of that? 
No thanks . . . . 
I like how for another $300, you'll provide video of the pump "working" on your car. 
Dave

its a lifetime warranty, and I test every pump that goes out on a car so it does not seize upon arrival. The guys know that the upgrade kits are out there and I even offer to sell the kits for $240 shipped for a DIY install.
Some people like the warranty idea - its lifetime, and its assurance and a guarantee of a pump that works and has been tested. I pay for overnight shipping, buy NEW pumps to use since we had a recent TSB on the solenoid, and offer stupid amounts of tech support.
no thread jack though! followers here, my ms3 stuff can be talked about somewhere else. Also, group buys are offered at dramatically reduced rates.


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

myself or JC will chime in for sure, whenever we can figure out the diameter of the follower.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Lol, so you buy $250 pump components, take 15 minutes to assemble them and then charge the customer $300 on top of that? 
No thanks . . . . 
I like how for another $300, you'll provide video of the pump "working" on your car. 
Dave


You make that sound like its an industry first...


----------



## b00stin_02917 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_
lol that site is mine!
I was going to offer something for the VAG guys too. 

haha your the man... it would be awsome if you and jc would be able to work somthing out for us guys..that would deffently be awsome.


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

You make that sound like its an industry first...


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

You make that sound like its an industry first...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


----------



## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hey is that caliper calibrated. Just busting ballz







Good Morning all.


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (goin2fast)*

omg it would be great if we could use their follower
you guys get on that....i'm willing to start a donation to fund the project








no seriously, i'm trolling this thread everyday


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

21mm. Too bad. So does anyone have access to a CAD drawing of the side cam cover through a SEMA-like membership? It's milling time!


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_21mm. 
 
Never measured the factory one , what size is it ??? 
Jeff you need to use a mic not a caliper







Bob.G


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Never measured the factory one , what size is it ??? 
Jeff you need to use a mic not a caliper







Bob.G

The MS3 was approx 28mm, ours is approx 21mm. Unless there was a gross error on the MS3 side, I'm not sure what you're asking, exactly...


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
The MS3 was approx 28mm, ours is approx 21mm. 
 
That's what I was basically asking .







Bob.G


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

Damn, I actually thought you guys might have had a solution!
What about manufacturing one oem size like that? Prohibitively expensive?


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

bummer. Looks like there is no need to mail this out. i doubled checked the measurements - 28mm


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_bummer. Looks like there is no need to mail this out. i doubled checked the measurements - 28mm


Given that this is on a side cam cover and not the head itself I'm not ready to abandon it yet. In addition, so long as the cover is being modified I don't think it would be a tall order to make a spacer piece (2mm as you surmised) to get the pump and cam axis spacing right. I don't think the fuel lines would have a problem with that given how much I saw them flex when I took my pump off. Another question would be the hardness and finish of the OEM MS3 Cam...


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*

That cover is over 700 bucks better get it right hte first time


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_That cover is over 700 bucks better get it right hte first time









pocket change...just try it with a dremmel


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_That cover is over 700 bucks better get it right hte first time









According to what you've said we'll be going through more than that in cams and followers...


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
According to what you've said we'll be going through more than that in cams and followers...









True, I'm going to have one machined for the RS4 follower soon. I've got a spare head now..


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Is there a retainer to locate the MS3 follower to keep it from rotating? 
The concave face of the follower reduces stress, but I could not see all the pictures to look for a retainer. 
28mm may be too big to open up the OEM case not sure how much wall thickness there is there. Keep up the invetivation though you guys are on to something for sure. 
What is the lubrication like on the MS3? How about the diameter of the cam base circle and the nose radii?


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*

i just read this entire thread and now i think im going to spend my money on FK's instead of a fuel pump


----------



## Tom16v (Apr 7, 2003)

*Re: (ShutItDown)*

I just took out and inspected my pump, cam and follower and they looked solid, no cracks on the lifter just the normal wear on the face and the underside http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I would have taken a picture for you guys but my camera is inop. at the moment


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Tom16v)*

Does the MS3 have a substantial amount of oil constantly on the cam and follower?


----------



## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

sorry guys, I've been a mystery. I'll snap pictures of the cam, follower/pump housing, etc tomorrow, and take some good measurements for you.
I know the pump stroke is identical between mazdas and vw's, and honestly when pulling out the follower, it wasn't ridiculously oiled, and my pump doesn't have excessive oil on the piston/spring assembly when pulling it in and out.
I'm down to send this follower to someone free of charge if you guys think you can get it to work - preferably the heavy hitters - JC or Chris


----------



## CtGTi77 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

i might be able to help you guys. i was going to remove my cam follower (stock pump) for inspection at some point this week, maybe i'll even remove the cam follower from the wifes mazdaspeed 6 for a comparison with pictures.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (CtGTi77)*

Unfortunately there isn't enough meat in the casting of the came cover that the pump sits into to really bore it out for a larger diameter follower.


----------



## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

here is mine. have been chipped for 19000 miles, and have driven the car hard alot. at fuel pump has been on for 5-6 months... what do u guys think?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Rysskii,
Did GIAC mention replacing the Cam? Just curious, it's really hard to tell, but it looks like just your follower could have been replaced (again, it's really hard to tell, so don't quote me on that). However, I'm guessing that since you're the test car, you wouldn't have the option of a careful break in period (as enginerd mentioned). Best of luck man...hope all is going well. If you get a moment, could you ask Brandon or Austin when they plan to release the new Intake Flap Revision Software? Thanks again.


----------



## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Rysskii,
Did GIAC mention replacing the Cam? Just curious, it's really hard to tell, but it looks like just your follower could have been replaced (again, it's really hard to tell, so don't quote me on that). However, I'm guessing that since you're the test car, you wouldn't have the option of a careful break in period (as enginerd mentioned). Best of luck man...hope all is going well. If you get a moment, could you ask Brandon or Austin when they plan to release the new Intake Flap Revision Software? Thanks again.

i asked them that, i was told that only some cars (not all) need that software, they were just checking to see how it was. i already ordered a new follower. they said that the stock one is still smooth


----------



## vRStu (Sep 11, 2006)

We did an inspection on one here this week, the car has around 20k miles and has had an AT pump for around 6k miles.
External damage is negligable however there is some slight wear inside which appears to be caused by the top of the pump. It was changed anyway as they are only around £20 (40$) to buy.
Without seeing a stock one with similar miles it's difficult to compare.


----------



## CtGTi77 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: (vRStu)*

OK, need help from all the 2.0fsit gurus.
checked my cam follower today. Looks OK to me, slid out of the shaft nice and smooth on a film of oil, but i'd like some opinions as to whether or not i should change it.
Thanks for the help guys. 
PS: my car has 37,500 miles, 27,500 of them flashed with GIAC 93x program. Thanks again for the input.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

coating is worn throught its going downhill fast, i would change it and try to break it in nice again.


----------



## CtGTi77 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_coating is worn throught its going downhill fast, i would change it and try to break it in nice again. 

great.....thanks for the input, i'll order one tommorow







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Any thoughts on the the mileage necessary to carefully break in a new follower?


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Any thoughts on the the mileage necessary to carefully break in a new follower?

I think you would have to have more data to go with that, such as:
Did you change the cam out for a new one?
Did you use VW approved oils (I know some A3 owners are snooty and don't use 'em!)
Do you ever rally in ponds or forest areas?
Do you ever hypermile (be honest!)?

That's probably just the tip of the iceberg of the types of questions that must be answered before one could even begin to come up with an answer!


----------



## Jags880 (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: (syntrix)*

I checked mine today because I was thinking of going to an AT and was doing some research and stumbled upon this thread...I guess its good that I did because mine is bad. I currently have a stock pump with 50K and chipped since 4K.


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (Jags880)*

Build date: Nov 2005
Mileage: 20k total, 3k chipped
Oil Interval: 5k with Elf 5w-40 since 5k miles
Driving style: mostly granny, with occasional spirited runs
the surface looked a little worn but it was shiny and felt buttery smooth. i forgot to take a pic of the cam but it was spotless. i put in the apr pump and from now on will check the follower every 5k miles, oil changes down to 3k intervals


----------



## chiuy (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Spax MC)*

SpaxMC, which cam version do you have? Mine was built one month after yours.


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (chiuy)*

i think i have the A cam....i'm not sure but it looked perfect


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (Spax MC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spax MC* »_i think i have the A cam....i'm not sure but it looked perfect

don't think, know... takes 20mins to check http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/15


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (Raring 2 Go)*

Is this something I need to be checking if I am still using the stock fuel pump? I am stage 2, but using the stock fuel pump for now (and maybe forever).
All this cam revision and follower stuff is starting to freak me out since I am getting near to the end of my warranty.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

If you have "A" cam and fuel codes stored... there's a TSB, and the dealer will replace the camshaft with updated one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif worth checking it out


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_Is this something I need to be checking if I am still using the stock fuel pump? I am stage 2, but using the stock fuel pump for now (and maybe forever).
All this cam revision and follower stuff is starting to freak me out since I am getting near to the end of my warranty. 

quite honestly it's really, really easy to check. Set aside an hour to be safe and take a look for yourself. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_If you have "A" cam and fuel codes stored... there's a TSB, and the dealer will replace the camshaft with updated one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif worth checking it out

Not sure which cam I have (GTI 1/06) but I got this last week:
008851 - Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve (N276): Mechanical Malfunction 
P2293 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 10100010
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 8
Mileage: 57622 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:39:57
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 3148 /min
Load: 100.0 %
Speed: 125.0 km/h
Temperature: 93.0∞C
Temperature: 33.0∞C
Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.970 V
By the time I could get my car in for service, the MIL was already off but the code was still in the ECU. Heard from the dealership (who I have had positive experiences with in the past) they will be replacing my FPR valve








I hate to tell other people how to do their job, but I'm almost ready to bring in the TSB regarding the cam and follower and possibly HPFP if necessary. Is the FPR valve even able to be replaced separately? 37k miles on my car now, and if something is going to give, I'd like it to be covered under warranty. Looks like I might have to take a peek at the cam style (A/B)


----------



## nonexno (May 14, 2008)

Can someone answer this?
My cam follower's first layer of coating (the black layer) is gone. However the surface is still smooth and shiny...
1. Do I need to replace it?
2. Accodring to my VW dealer, if I replace the cam follower without replacing the cam, cam shalf and fuel pump, it would cause abnormal wear on the cam, cam shalf and fuel pump because the "replaced cam follower" would be harder than the old... is this true?


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (nonexno)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nonexno* »_Can someone answer this?
My cam follower's first layer of coating (the black layer) is gone. However the surface is still smooth and shiny...
1. Do I need to replace it?
2. Accodring to my VW dealer, if I replace the cam follower without replacing the cam, cam shalf and fuel pump, it would cause abnormal wear on the cam, cam shalf and fuel pump because the "replaced cam follower" would be harder than the old... is this true? 

yes, your dealer is right. your cam lobe and follower have developed a wear pattern together. i would not replace the follower if there is no galling or gouging.


----------



## MKVMAX (May 27, 2008)

*Re: (shortydub)*

Sorry if this question was already asked, I've read the 6 first pages and to lazy to read the rest.
I have a 2008, could this problem happen to me?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_yes, your dealer is right. your cam lobe and follower have developed a wear pattern together. i would not replace the follower if there is no galling or gouging. 

By that logic, all the roller arms would need to be replaced when they swap cams... yet the TSB for the camshaft lists the only required parts as the cam and the follower. How many dealers do you think replace all the worn-in roller arms? Prob none.


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

rollers may be different. i'm not sure as they don't spin. but any time you replace cams in an engine with regular followers, they should be replaced as the spinning causes a wear pattern.


----------



## MKVMAX (May 27, 2008)

*Re: (MKVMAX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKVMAX* »_Sorry if this question was already asked, I've read the 6 first pages and to lazy to read the rest.
I have a 2008, could this problem happen to me?

please...


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (MKVMAX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKVMAX* »_please...


Do you have a BPY engine? If yes, then YES this could happen to you.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

F*** these cars... JIABANO FTW!


----------



## MKVMAX (May 27, 2008)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_

Do you have a BPY engine? If yes, then YES this could happen to you.

Sorry, dunno what's BPY ?


----------



## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

*Re: (MKVMAX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKVMAX* »_
Sorry, dunno what's BPY ?

BPY is the engine code. It's stamped on top of the engine under the cover. To my knowlwdge 2006 and some 2007 have this problem. Some 2007 and all 2008 should be ok. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (bbong73)*

Unless you've got one of the new CCTA engines (which haven't been proven to have any flaws yet), everyone is at risk IMO.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (bbong73)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bbong73* »_BPY is the engine code. It's stamped on top of the engine under the cover. To my knowlwdge 2006 and some 2007 have this problem. Some 2007 and all 2008 should be ok. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.


BPY, DESPITE THE YEAR, is at risk for this issue.
BTW... engine code is also on the sticker on the timing belt cover on the passenger side of the motor. That MIGHT be visible w/o removing the engine cover.
But... if your engine cover says "FSI" then you have a BPY engine. If your engine cover says "TSI" then you have a CCTA engine.


_Modified by 2pt0tee at 5:26 PM 6-5-2008_


----------



## MKVMAX (May 27, 2008)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

Ok now I know I have the FSI. 
So what's best to do with this issue...?
Take a look oftenly at the follower and replace it if it's prematurely weared?


----------



## lagamm (Mar 25, 2006)

2006 Jetta 2.0T (DSG)
Driver extremly hard from day 1
17,000 miles od.
REVO stage1 for last 3 months driven even harder
Stock FP
Inspected cam & follower.
everything looks really good, will post pics asap.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (lagamm)*

Just an update...
Inspected the pump and CF yesterday with the Autotech pump, new CF for 5000 km, and 130 rail pressure.
The outer surface coating seems intact, there is a ring present (that wasn't there on the older CF even after 35000 Km), but my guess is its just the normal concave wear from contacting the camshaft, and not stress marks, since it doesn't follow the path of least resistance along the small holes.








On the inside too, the imprint is pretty normal, without any of the indentations shown by other Autotech CF's (including my older one).








Camshaft also looks healthy (AXX engine type A)
Cheers. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
On the inside too, the imprint is pretty normal










Thats '_normal_' to you?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Thats '_normal_' to you?

Yes its just an imprint in the oil layer.Its not deep.I just didn't clean the inside before taking the pic.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Too bad you didn't wipe it off and get a higher res pic... because I'd have to agree with Arin... that looks like a rather big dent in that picture. Plus, the lighter ring around it suggests the spring retainer was making some contact too.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_Too bad you didn't wipe it off and get a higher res pic... because I'd have to agree with Arin... that looks like a rather big dent in that picture. Plus, the lighter ring around it suggests the spring retainer was making some contact too.

The imprint is really light, and the brown circle is just oil.
As for the bigger ring, it can be one of 2 things.Its either stress mark from the pump's motion and contact with the camshaft, or there might be some contact with the retainer, although i doubt it.If you look at wear from an OEM pump, there also is a wider ring from the "supposedly" swinging of the tip.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_Too bad you didn't wipe it off and get a higher res pic... because I'd have to agree with Arin... that looks like a rather big dent in that picture. Plus, *the lighter ring around it suggests the spring retainer was making some contact too.*

I'm not so sure about that. From what I've seen, the height of the plunger to the spring retainer makes it unlikely that the assembly would pivot on the tip and cause the retainer to hit the piston. Keep in mind, not pivoting is a bad thing, which i believe is the cause of all the deep imprints in the backside of the follower. The plunger tip is literally trying to pivot but instead ends up grinding more and more into the follower. 
What I believe you're seeing in the lighter ring is the factory casting of the follower. I noticed on my brand new follower that it is not flat at all on the inside. It is raised highest in the center, and then it steps off onto another raised portion, oddly mirroring the OEM pivoting plunger head.








Dave


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

GolfRS: did you end up modifying the plunger tip? IIRC you had mentioned doing something of the sort.
Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_GolfRS: did you end up modifying the plunger tip? IIRC you had mentioned doing something of the sort.
Dave

Yes i did, and i also emailed Autotech about it, but have gotten no response.
Now looking at your new CF pic, i can see the damage is even less than i previously thought.I was kinda puzzled about the outer ring, and the tiny grooves in the middle, but i can now see its all part of the manufacturing process of the CF, just brought forth from the piston contact.
Here is another pic, light enhanced to show some more detail.Notice the smoothness of the oil layer over the imprint, and the outer ring, that as seen above is attributed to the CF's manufacturing.








BTW i WILL be reinstalling this CF in the car.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Yes i did, and i also emailed Autotech about it, but have gotten no response.
Now looking at your new CF pic, i can see the damage is even less than i previously thought.I was kinda puzzled about the outer ring, and the tiny grooves in the middle, but i can now see its all part of the manufacturing process of the CF, just brought forth from the piston contact.
Here is another pic, light enhanced to show some more detail.Notice the smoothness of the oil layer over the imprint, and the outer ring, that as seen above is attributed to the CF's manufacturing.








BTW i WILL be reinstalling this CF in the car.

Smoothness of the imprint only means that there is oil pooled in the indent. To truly gauge the wear in the center, you'd have to clean off the oil. 
FWIW, my stock follower + stock pump with 32k miles (17k of it on 130 bar SII programming) on it still had the follower center convex intact. It was raised instead of all the AT followers I've seen with the centers either level or ground-in. Follower face was also perfectly flat (to the eye) and didn't have any concavity where it meets the cam. Black coating was still present although you could see that where the cam contacted it, there were fewer layers of black coating.
Dave


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*



GolfRS said:


> QUOTE]
> the only thing i don't like is that small dimple in the very center that is dug into the cam follower itself, that was happening to me with my AT pump and they got me out a new style pump asap


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Smoothness of the imprint only means that there is oil pooled in the indent. To truly gauge the wear in the center, you'd have to clean off the oil. 
FWIW, my stock follower + stock pump with 32k miles (17k of it on 130 bar SII programming) on it still had the follower center convex intact. It was raised instead of all the AT followers I've seen with the centers either level or ground-in. Follower face was also perfectly flat (to the eye) and didn't have any concavity where it meets the cam. Black coating was still present although you could see that where the cam contacted it, there were fewer layers of black coating.
Dave

Well if you have a better look you can see that the oil surrounding the imprint actually follows a curving route around it with the "curve" actually pointing upwards, which indicates oil is trying to circumvent a "raised" surface.If the "imprint" (i guess you can't call it that then) was actually an indentation, the curve would be pointing downwards as the oil would be "filling the hole".
I hope i'm making sense...








Anyways, i'll try and get a clean pic.
@jc:the dimple was not caused by the piston head.I had the same prob as you mention with the original piston, but than manufacturing defect has since been removed from the tip.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*FV-QR*

When I become president there are several people in this thread I will appoint to the CIA/FBI/NSA as analysts. I can assure you that with me in office, we will not mistake an ice-cream truck for a biological weapon's transport.
Edit: Spelling


_Modified by magilson at 5:48 PM 6-16-2008_


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*

I wonder if the engineers at VW read these threads and laugh at all of the speculations and theories.


----------



## ga_mueller (Oct 19, 2004)

*Cam Follower*

Howdy, noob here (well, this forum-wise, anyway). After suffering through a gazillion recalls on my wife's 98 A6Q I decided that the devil I know, is better than the one I don't ... so we just bought an 07 A4Q 2.0T w/20K. Do all maint. myself, so I though I'd get to know the 2.0T motor better, and ended up at this thread... crap. I've read this whole dang thread, and it's still not clear to me if this is only a problem with upgraded fuel pumps, or affects all 2.0T's, whether "old cam" or "new cam". I guess the smart thing to do is pull the pump at the next oil change... which will be @ 5K OCI and not 10K as recommended...


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_I wonder if the engineers at VW read these threads and laugh at all of the speculations and theories.









If I ever found out they were laughing at VW enthusiast's reactions to their poor designs I'd never buy another VW car or part for the rest of my life.


----------



## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*

X2


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
If I ever found out they were laughing at VW enthusiast's reactions to their poor designs I'd never buy another VW car or part for the rest of my life.

There are a couple hundred thousand of these engines running around bone stock with 0 issues. Because of a bunch of us idiots can't leave things well enough alone and modify our cars to the point that it pushes the limits of stock parts its a poor design? How is that their fault?


----------



## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There are a couple hundred thousand of these engines running around bone stock with 0 issues. Because of a bunch of us idiots can't leave things well enough alone and modify our cars to the point that it pushes the limits of stock parts its a poor design? How is that their fault?

Though the same issue comes up ("008851 Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve N276- Mechanical Malfunction", for example) even on stock engines that have been cared for and serviced regularly. Just sucks when you do everything you're supposed to and then have to worry about what happens once your warranty is up because it may happen again after the cam, follower and possibly HPFP is replaced.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (corradokidg60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corradokidg60* »_
Though the same issue comes up ("008851 Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve N276- Mechanical Malfunction", for example) even on stock engines that have been cared for and serviced regularly. Just sucks when you do everything you're supposed to and then have to worry about what happens once your warranty is up because it may happen again after the cam, follower and possibly HPFP is replaced.









There is a known problem with a batch of cams that can cause that or any other number of things. That does not mean a bad design, two entirely different things.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There are a couple hundred thousand of these engines running around bone stock with 0 issues. Because of a bunch of us idiots can't leave things well enough alone and modify our cars to the point that it pushes the limits of stock parts its a poor design? How is that their fault?

I have done nothing to my car to compromise the integrity of that system and yet when I posted pictures of my "A" cam you insisted I immediately take it to the dealer to have it replaced. Unless you have data to show that the number of modified cars with issues is different that the number of OEM cars with issues then I suggest you stop speculating as to the quality of the design. You're not even a tech anymore so I'm not sure where you are getting your info. I'm sure you've done the same as me which is to ask other tech's. In addition I feel that the change in the design of the system so quickly could easily be interpreted as an aknowledgment that the "old" design was in fact a worse design than what they went to (in VAG's opinion, which given the first design I will admit I don't hold highly). So which is it? It's a good design and we shouldn't worry or it isn't and we should make a mad dash to the dealer? Or is it whatever fits at the moment so you can make a silly comment? I think you should stop talking now, Chris.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
I have done nothing to my car to compromise the integrity of that system and yet when I posted pictures of my "A" cam you insisted I immediately take it to the dealer to have it replaced. Unless you have data to show that the number of modified cars with issues is different that the number of OEM cars with issues then I suggest you stop speculating as to the quality of the design. You're not even a tech anymore so I'm not sure where you are getting your info. I'm sure you've done the same as me which is to ask other tech's. In addition I feel that the change in the design of the system so quickly could easily be interpreted as an aknowledgment that the "old" design was in fact a worse design than what they went to (in VAG's opinion, which given the first design I will admit I don't hold highly). So which is it? It's a good design and we shouldn't worry or it isn't and we should make a mad dash to the dealer? Or is it whatever fits at the moment so you can make a silly comment? I think you should stop talking now, Chris.









Where do I get my info.. I don't know maybe workign at a dealer? Maybe on the phone and email and forums all day long only doing this sort of thing.. Don't know where I could possibly get this info.
The A cam is a defect not a bad design. Fix your A cam and on a bone stock car your problem is releived.
Running a file that requests 130 bar? Thats more then factory thats outside the normal operating parameters of a stock file and stock car. HAve a problem its not a design flaw its modified.
You're the one speculating about the quality of a design not me so please stop telling me what to do. 
How many 100% bone stock cars have you seen posts of with failed B cams and followers?
How many with A cams?
How many with both that are modified?
Speculating? no its call reading and researching! Please give it a whirl sometime.


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Oh snap! Ownd!!


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Where do I get my info.. I don't know maybe workign at a dealer? Maybe on the phone and email and forums all day long only doing this sort of thing.. Don't know where I could possibly get this info.
The A cam is a defect not a bad design. Fix your A cam and on a bone stock car your problem is releived.
Running a file that requests 130 bar? Thats more then factory thats outside the normal operating parameters of a stock file and stock car. HAve a problem its not a design flaw its modified.
You're the one speculating about the quality of a design not me so please stop telling me what to do. 
How many 100% bone stock cars have you seen posts of with failed B cams and followers?
How many with A cams?
How many with both that are modified?
Speculating? no its call reading and researching! Please give it a whirl sometime.

By that summation I could speculate that running 130 bar isn't an issue given that the problems seen are insignificant in number compared to the number of people running that pressure. Hell, I'm even willing to admit that Autotech's design might not be bad, while I don't think it's better than OEM, but that the follower is the issue. In fact, given the Mazda fueling system design it would seem the tappet concept is good, but VAG's design of the follower wasn't as good as Mazda's. In addition I do not pretend to believe that the Vortex is an accurate cross-section of all VW's being used. You must also take into account the fact that the design has been changed to what is obviously a more expensive design. (Although Crew219 pointed out to me that the follower seem to be sourced from China now, as opposed to Germany originally. Who knows what other cost savings they are attempting.







)
Also, do not begin to start with me about running outside of factory specs. If I have learned anything from Revo it's that I should just get into my car, mash the pedal, and ignore anything else. But that's a side note.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*

China? Not sure but one I bought saturday that was made 2/22/08 was made in germany


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_China? Not sure but one I bought saturday that was made 2/22/08 was made in germany

I'll check my IM convo with him again, but I remember he was talking about it being from China...


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
I'll check my IM convo with him again, but I remember he was talking about it being from China...

Nah it is the fuel filter that is from china . . . follower is made in germany
Dave


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Nah it is the fuel filter that is from china . . . follower is made in germany
Dave

Doh! Well that means I am now positive the new design is more costly to build. I just can't imagine why they'd do that if they didn't think it was a better design.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Mags, aren't you stage 1? (110 bar).
BTW, I read in an article posted by VF, the rss kit, w/ AT pump runs at 136 bar now.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Found!








2-4bar stock, 55-136bar modified.... Hehe, some one must have their specs wrong


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Mags, aren't you stage 1? (110 bar).

Yep.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Found!








2-4bar stock, 55-136bar modified.... Hehe, some one must have their specs wrong









I've also seen 136 spikes at throttle lift, but thats not constant pressure...
Its just a peak number caused (as previously mentioned) by the lag in fuel pressure release..


----------



## pargyrak (Jul 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

In my Seat dealership in Thessaloniki, Greece there was a Seat Leon FR (BWA/BPY engine) completely stock with B cam that destroyed the follower, pieces of which where found inside the engine.
The car has 70.000km on the odometer all of which at the highway and according to the driver it was driven hard.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (pargyrak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pargyrak* »_In my Seat dealership in Thessaloniki, Greece there was a Seat Leon FR (BWA/BPY engine) completely stock with B cam that destroyed the follower, pieces of which where found inside the engine.
The car has 70.000km on the odometer all of which at the highway and according to the driver it was driven hard.


Not saying that there won't be failures. There are failures of flawless designs that have nothing to do with the design at all.


----------



## pargyrak (Jul 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Most failures occure when the car is driven hard at high rpm but not always.
I do a lot of highway trips keeping the rpm under 5000, rearly I exceed 6000 rpm at any gear and still I had to change my cam follower 3 times. 
Once along with the HPFP (from F to H) and the cam (from A to B) at 35.000Km.
The folower was dented but not broken
Once at 58.000 when I installed the K04.300 as a precaution. The lubrication was starting to wear of.
And now at 73500Km again as a precaution since I got a N276 fault code. Unfortunately the dealership through away the old follower and I have no idea of the status it was in. I inspected the follower at 65K and it was in mint condition.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (pargyrak)*

now that i have 3k miles on the new cam, follower and APR fuel pump rev'ing to 8k here are some updated pics everything looks good as new


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_now that i have 3k miles on the new cam, follower and APR fuel pump rev'ing to 8k here are some updated pics everything looks good as new

















Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it missing quite a bit of its coating?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it missing quite a bit of its coating?









no that one is just a bad picture it still had oil smudged on it, and the coating wearing off is normal anyway after a certain amount of miles


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
no that one is just a bad picture it still had oil smudged on it, and the coating wearing off is normal anyway after a certain amount of miles

Too bad VW can't figure out a way for the coating to not wear off.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
Too bad VW can't figure out a way for the coating to not wear off.









Yes. Physics is a tremendous inconvenience.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_Yes. Physics is a tremendous inconvenience.

Hmmm... so what you are saying is that because of physics, VW will never have any other solution? With that kind of outlook, then maybe the rest of the top end should wear down prematurely like the follower then eh?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
Hmmm... so what you are saying is that because of physics, VW will never have any other solution? With that kind of outlook, then maybe the rest of the top end should wear down prematurely like the follower then eh?









lol. Get over yourself. The point was that they (or their vendor) did find a better solution and all of us have seen it.


----------



## 60356901930964993997 (Nov 28, 2004)

The one thing that few have mentioned with this is oil kind, quality, etc.
The US has had major changes with this, and causes havoc in applications where the camshaft has a cam follower/tappet. 
It doesn't matter if the cam drives a valve spring, or a fuel pump...the sheer angles with oil quality may something to consider with this.
Metals, forgings, coatings, fuel pumps being modified, oil quality and quantity, temperature, etc.
More data points, more pictures, and there will be an answer someplace. Time always tells


----------



## Zer0infrn015 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside ([email protected])*

Do I need to take off my EVOMS intake to look at my fuel pump? I took mine to the dealership and they said they are going to charge me $80 to take off my intake becuase they need to look at the fuel pump (I had a fuel cut)


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (Zer0infrn015)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zer0infrn015* »_Do I need to take off my EVOMS intake to look at my fuel pump? I took mine to the dealership and they said they are going to charge me $80 to take off my intake becuase they need to look at the fuel pump (I had a fuel cut)

They'll need to take it off to properly work on the fuel pump, but the pump itself can be seen plainly with an Evoms intake.
The reality is that they would have also had to take off the OEM intake/engine cover as well and don't think that's an $80 job.


----------



## Zer0infrn015 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (magilson)*

I agree I feel like they are just trying to take advantage of me since my car has an intake and exhaust. I know that once they preform the work I can only argue and they most likely won't budge but I can also let them know that my car will frewuent other dealers. I am just livid right now so I couldn't argue on the phone becuase I would have flipped out and that wouldn't have done any good.
I hate the stealerships!! They will do whatever they can to get more money.


----------



## Zer0infrn015 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (magilson)*

Oh I know I am a pain in a$$ and a cheap one at that. I will do whatever I can to not pay. That includes switching to a different dealership (I will call the other local dealerships to see what they say about the charge). I have no problem with a small fee since I am no longer stock maybe $30 or $40 but $80 sounds absurd since they would have to take off my engine cover anyway. I can't imagine that the EVOMS is any harder to take off than the stock. I didn't put it on though so I can't say for sure.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Brent is this CVM, Victory, or someone else?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Why not use break in additive to reduce cam wear?*

Maybe I am guessing wrong here, but wouldn't a break in additive like this help the cam/follower wear?
http://www.redlineoil.com/prod...yID=1
I am just breaking in a new GTI and am wondering if it might be worth using for the cam/follower issue.
also, here is a VOA of it for what it is worth (no moly in it although redline street oils are loaded with moly):
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...NREAD
Assuming that redline or one of the other high Moly/addpacks aren't used due to lack of 502 spec approval, couldn't this just be added to a 502 approved oil? Forgive noobieness if I am off base here, totally new to this issue and want my GTI to last.
...accidently posted this in main FSI forum when I intended to post it here...


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Why not use break in additive to reduce cam wear? (saaber2)*

Sorry that link didn't work, here it is:
http://www.redlineoil.com/prod...yID=1
The text says "provides conventional motor oils with antiwear additives like zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) necessary to protect against camshaft and valvetrain damage on break-in"


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Why not use break in additive to reduce cam wear? (saaber2)*

Here is the correct Virgin Oil Analysis link: 
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...NREAD
Thanks for your patience


----------



## 07mkvFury (Dec 11, 2007)

the part number for the cam follower is 06D-109-309-C
does any one have the part number for the new revision B camshaft lobe?
is this correct for revision B? 06F-109-101-B ?
I already had replaced mis placed the part number and don't feel like trying to describe parts to the dumb stealerships.
Thanks-


_Modified by 07mkvFury at 6:21 AM 7-28-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (07mkvFury)*


_Quote, originally posted by *07mkvFury* »_the part number for the cam follower is 06D-109-309-C
does any one have the part number for the new revision B camshaft lobe?
is this correct for revision B? 06F-109-101-B ?
I already had replaced mis placed the part number and don't feel like trying to describe parts to the dumb stealerships.
Thanks-
_Modified by 07mkvFury at 6:21 AM 7-28-2008_

are you planning on doing the camshaft yourself?


----------



## 07mkvFury (Dec 11, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

yes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
anything special I should know about in advance. changed out my follower myself 7k ago and experienced my first fuel cut in a few months last night 60mph 6th gear WOT. I'm suspecting the cam shaft so I'll give it a look after work it was fine when I changed the follower.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (07mkvFury)*


_Quote, originally posted by *07mkvFury* »_yes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
anything special I should know about in advance. changed out my follower myself 7k ago and experienced my first fuel cut in a few months last night 60mph 6th gear WOT. I'm suspecting the cam shaft so I'll give it a look after work it was fine when I changed the follower.

you need more than just a new camshaft to do the job, look earlier in the thread for the list i posted and add to in the 23 bolts for the cam top frame
i have everything in stock


----------



## 07mkvFury (Dec 11, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Pm sent if you could help me out much appreciated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (07mkvFury)*


_Quote, originally posted by *07mkvFury* »_yes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
anything special I should know about in advance. changed out my follower myself 7k ago and experienced my first fuel cut in a few months last night 60mph 6th gear WOT. I'm suspecting the cam shaft so I'll give it a look after work it was fine when I changed the follower.

If you only plan to do it once I suggest just paying someone. It takes a few hundred bucks in special tools to do that most of them you will have no use for later on.
Find a tech in your area who wants to do it on the side. You'll pay less in labor to him then you would in tools.
Or I'll rent you mine and 100 bucks an hour tech support


----------



## 07mkvFury (Dec 11, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*








just had the clutch replaced and had the car stripped down 2 weeks ago and I sure am hoping that the shaft is not the problem and its just another worn lobe. I hate having to reflash and pull the car apart takes forever..


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (07mkvFury)*

so 5,000 after I took this pic...








I take off the pump and check it again and find no additional wear...








Looks like its still not wearing through at all so I threw it back in there and I'll leave it be for another 10.000 miles.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_06 GTI 32k miles
- 15k stock
- 5k Revo Stage I
- 12k APR Stage I
Mobil 1 0W40 5k-10k, 10k-15k
Castrol 0w-30 every 3k after that.
Autocrossed regularly after 15k
"A" Cam








Minimal wear, if any








Cam bucket appears to have two "layers" of coating worn off. I forgot to take a picture of the inside of the follower but it looks the same as "Twinkers" on the previous page.








Pump looks normal.








I see no cause for alarm on my part, yet. I have more pictures of the cam lobe wear if anyone needs a (potentially) better view. I really don't see it as bad. Enjoy?

Now at 36,000 miles:


----------



## ilde10 (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*









im guessing thats real bad?
im @ 52,xxx and ive never checked this. I just bought a KMD fuel pump and waiting for that to get here...
So what am i looking for exactly before i install?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ilde10)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ilde10* »_
im guessing thats real bad?


I'm just taking pictures periodically to watch how quickly it might go. I'd say real bad are the people who come on here with pictures of a cracked or destroyed follower with a pump shaft half gone riding on the spring. I'll check the follower/cam more often now that I have an idea of it's wear rate. Most people have been showing extreme cases so I thought I'd post something a bit more comprehensive i.e. the death of an "a" cam fuel system.
I have oil analysis for most of my oil changes and certainly all of my recent ones and my wear metals look really good. I wish I knew how the follower coating would appear in an oil analysis. I'm wondering if I will start to see my wear metal numbers shoot up now that the coating is gone.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (magilson)*

Magilson, awesome info. and would love to see any UOA's you can post. Also the pictures above that you posted are not showing up anymore. I don't know if it is my browser or the file host.? 
Also I see you are doing 3k oil changes which is smart. It would be great to catalog all these cam follower picks and UOAs from multiple users sometime. But probably wouldn't be able to get enough data to make it meaningful I suppose.
Jettavr6 has those great follower photos of >50k miles using M1 0W40, so that is one other piece of data.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Magilson, photos are back, must have been my browser. Great photos btw!
Also, you might pose the question about how the coating and follower wear would be shown in a UOA to the Bob is the Oil Guy forum. If anyone would know, they will.


_Modified by saaber2 at 8:50 AM 8-3-2008_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Magilson, awesome info. and would love to see any UOA's you can post.









VOA numbers for comparison:
Castrol Syntec 0W30 (gold, not green)
cSt 100C-------------12.0
Cu--------------------0
Fe---------------------2
Cr---------------------0
Ni----------------------0
Ti----------------------0
Ag---------------------0
Pb---------------------0
Sn---------------------0
Al----------------------1
Si----------------------4
Sb 
Na---------------------4
K----------------------1
Mo---------------------2
B----------------------1
Ba---------------------0
Ca---------------------1720
Mg---------------------511
Mn---------------------0
P-----------------------854
Zn----------------------983
Given the baseline I've set with the GC I am taking it up to around 4k on the next and so on. Plenty of add-pack left so hopefully increasing the interval length will work out.

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Also, you might pose the question about how the coating and follower wear would be shown in a UOA to the Bob is the Oil Guy forum. If anyone would know, they will.

I'm sure they could if there was an answer as to what the coating was. There has been plenty of speculation but no sure evidence.

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Great photos btw!

Canon IS S3 is a great camera with some practice. Super Macro works very well.
EDIT: VOA data for comparison


_Modified by magilson at 8:46 PM 8-3-2008_


----------



## FuN:TuRBO (Sep 14, 2007)

i love these threads on the tech forums. you guys are my teachers and you dont even know it..


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

10k on new follower. The techs put molly grease on the top of it before installing in my car. Looks exactly the same as it did the day it was put in. Any variations on the top of it is just oil and finger prints. (I didnt have my tripod and a good macro lens).
FWIW, are you guys putting at lease oil on the surface of the follower before you install it? If it's bone dry, starting up for the first time could really scrape the hell out of it w/o good lubrication between the two.


----------



## coolstrybrah (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Arin, is that 10k miles all on the APR HPFP?


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_FWIW, are you guys putting at lease oil on the surface of the follower before you install it? If it's bone dry, starting up for the first time could really scrape the hell out of it w/o good lubrication between the two.

Turkey Baster + lot of fresh oil
What moly grease do they use? There are several kinds aside from brands and I was wondering...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (my07blkgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *my07blkgti* »_Arin, is that 10k miles all on the APR HPFP?

Mods on car w/ that follower:
APR HPFP
APR Injectors
APR S3 K04
APR IC
APR TBE (stealth - non rsc)
APR Carbonio Intake
APR s3 k04 93 octane tune the whole time except for the tank of 100 and APR S3 K04 100 octane tune I used this weekend.
I'll ask over lunch what type of grease they used. My oil changes have been just around 5k. I've kept an eye on the oil level have not seen it drop low at all so I'm sure there has been plenty of proper lubrication. After what I've seen on here I honestly expected it to look different but it looked brand new. Since checking the follower on my car doesnt take much time at all, and since I can do my work here at the office on a weekend, I'll most likely take a look at it each oil change.


----------



## Raring 2 Go (May 22, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Moly grease or some grease seems like a good idea. Follower certainly looks fresh.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

I replaced my follower this past weekend...the old one looked just as it had during the past 2 5k mile checks, but I went ahead and replaced it with a new one. With that said, I just dipped the bottom half new follower in oil right before installing it (hope that was okay).
PS. The person who came up with that banjo bolt idea should be shot!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

LoL, I have the rubber hose on mine so I just left it attached and pulled the pump. Really saves time!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_LoL, I have the rubber hose on mine so I just left it attached and pulled the pump. Really saves time!

I actually pulled my hpfp and follower last weekend and it looked fresh too. My follower is still original and I have around 13k on the APR hpfp......as we did our pumps together when they first came out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected]R (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Your lucky you've only put on 13k miles since installing your pump. When I lived in Philly I wracked up 25k on the car before I knew it!


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

i just hit 4k on my new pump, cam and follower i want to pull it out this week and have a look


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

What's considered a good mileage of slow, easy break in for a new follower? 500? 1k?
I ask b/c I installed my new follower last week and haven't gone into boost or gone above 4k RPM for six days...it's beginning to take it's toll!


----------



## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_What's considered a good mileage of slow, easy break in for a new follower? 500? 1k?
I ask b/c I installed my new follower last week and haven't gone into boost or gone above 4k RPM for six days...it's beginning to take it's toll!

After getting mine replaced, I just drove it like normal. Occasional redline, puttering around when commuting, etc etc.


----------



## A388 (Jun 17, 2006)

I just have my camshaft and follower replaced. The good thing is HPFP wasn't damaged, the bad thing is my car is out of warranty. It spent me around $700 to fix it. 
Here are some pics:








"A" CAM








During surgery








Wear cam follower








Wear camshaft (Became round surface)








Leslie
05' A3 Sportback, 50K mileage. MTM Stage I, no other mod.



_Modified by A388 at 11:30 PM 8/24/2008_


----------



## Aguilar (Jan 28, 2006)

$700 at the dealership?
I tried following the DIY, and then I realized I had the infamous banjo bolt. So how am I supposed to get that one again?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (Aguilar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Aguilar* »_$700 at the dealership?
I tried following the DIY, and then I realized I had the infamous banjo bolt. So how am I supposed to get that one again? 


No, its about $700 in parts... that's not counting labor. I had to do my camshaft back in January.
Try the original DIY: http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I have to pull my pump this week and check on the status of my A cam (yes I knowingly installed a head with an A cam because I wanted to see what it takes to ruin one myself







). 
I will finally try and remember to take a picture of my ratchet that I use to get in there and get the bajo off easily.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I have to pull my pump this week and check on the status of my A cam (yes I knowingly installed a head with an A cam because I wanted to see what it takes to ruin one myself







). 
I will finally try and remember to take a picture of my ratchet that I use to get in there and get the bajo off easily.

Don't worry Chris.I suspect you have an early A cam like me.These seem bulletproof.
I doubt you'll see much wear. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by GolfRS at 5:12 PM 8-25-2008_


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Don't worry Chris.I suspect you have an early A cam like me.These seem bulletproof.
I doubt you'll see much wear. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


I actually have no idea when this cam was from. Could check the build date on it I Guess. My stock head was trashed when I lost oil pressure so I put in a spare head i had which happened to have an A cam in it since my B cam was ruined due to lack of oil pressure and I didn't feel like swapping out the B cam from the other spare head I had. 
But I am running 130 bar and reving to almost 8K and now have just shy of 6K on this setup with an aftermarket pump etc.. so I need to check the follower anyway.


----------



## Freddier (Aug 27, 2008)

Sorry I'm technically a noob.
is there someone who can tell what the "cam follower" does and what het certainly can not do?
i mean; what are the results if the cam follower doens't work properly?
thank you


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Tow truck


----------



## CtGTi77 (Dec 7, 2006)

quick question for all the cam follower gurus.
I bought a new cam follower with the intention of swapping mine which has 50k on it. a friend said i had to change the cam also. 
the question is, can i install just the cam follower w/out swapping the cam? it seems from reading the thread that a number of you have done just that.
PS: i origionally assumed that because the cam and follower do not form a seal, that having a wear pattern on the cam lobe that doesnt match the new follower would NOT be an issue, but i just want to check before i go ahead and install it.


_Modified by CtGTi77 at 8:56 PM 8-28-2008_


----------



## gilotin661 (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: (CtGTi77)*

well, you can see the cam condition when you take off HPFP. i just hope mine doesnt go after my warranty expires


----------



## StreetSpeed2000 (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (gilotin661)*

Ohhhh effin' A. Is the 13mm bleed valvey thing a left handed thread by any chance? Because I slapped a 13mm wrench on there, turned it in the obvious direction, and just mashed the hell out of the nut cuz' it's on there "tighter than a bulls @ss" as we say in the trade. I guess my next step is vice grips. Why is nothing easy?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (StreetSpeed2000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StreetSpeed2000* »_Ohhhh effin' A. Is the 13mm bleed valvey thing a left handed thread by any chance? Because I slapped a 13mm wrench on there, turned it in the obvious direction, and just mashed the hell out of the nut cuz' it's on there "tighter than a bulls @ss" as we say in the trade. I guess my next step is vice grips. Why is nothing easy?

Brass is soft, and yes that thing can be in there tight... using a box wrench or flare nut wrench makes it less likely to strip. Open-ended wrench on brass can be bad news.


_Modified by 2pt0tee at 11:29 AM 8-30-2008_


----------



## StreetSpeed2000 (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

Yeah I used a box wrench and it still stripped out. Sweeeeeeeeet. Vice grips here I come. Unless of course I can find some way to wiggle the Torx bit behind the bleed valve to get at those fuel pump screws. I'm gonna have to go to my dad's house and bust out the heavy artillery tools.


_Modified by StreetSpeed2000 at 11:32 AM 8-30-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (StreetSpeed2000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StreetSpeed2000* »_Ohhhh effin' A. Is the 13mm bleed valvey thing a left handed thread by any chance? Because I slapped a 13mm wrench on there, turned it in the obvious direction, and just mashed the hell out of the nut cuz' it's on there "tighter than a bulls @ss" as we say in the trade. I guess my next step is vice grips. Why is nothing easy?

BE VERY CAREFUL !!!
I've been down the same exact road and it cost me a pump.Plus if you get any fillings in the pump it (and the car) are toast....


----------



## StreetSpeed2000 (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Got her off. Had to go to two stores to find a damn 8mm 12 point bit. I got it and the old timer behind the desk said "Must be working on a VW!"
Anyway, took it out and everything looks surprisingly good. I expected after 47000 miles, Stage II for 40ks worth, 10,000 mile oil changes, more than a couple low oil alarms, and 16 or so track days thrown in there, I might've been in trouble.
So, because everything is in good shape, is the smart thing to do NOT to tempt fate, leave well enough alone, and go about my business? I have like 2 fuel cuts a year, and that's on the back straight at Mont Tremblant; never in daily (even brisk) driving. Or, do I throw in an Autotech or KMD pump, add HPFP software, for just a little bit more power? Is it worth the risk, oh fuel pump gurus of The Tex'? I WOULD like more power, but not at the expense of my cam shaft, motor, or even piece of mind.
Pardon the cell phone pic: Everything is smooth, no irregular wear, no cracks.










_Modified by StreetSpeed2000 at 4:39 PM 8-30-2008_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (StreetSpeed2000)*

StreetSpeed2000, what kind of oil have you been running in the car? looks pretty good at 47k


----------



## StreetSpeed2000 (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_StreetSpeed2000, what kind of oil have you been running in the car? looks pretty good at 47k

Mobil1 5w-30. I change it every 10,000 miles, and I tend to add oil only when my low oil pressure alarm goes off when I go around sharp turns. I guess the moral of the story is abuse your car and she'll treat you right! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: (StreetSpeed2000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StreetSpeed2000* »_
Mobil1 5w-30. I change it every 10,000 miles, and I tend to add oil only when my low oil pressure alarm goes off when I go around sharp turns. I guess the moral of the story is abuse your car and she'll treat you right! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Ouch... if the oil is getting low enough to trigger the low oil pressure alarm....








Might consider switching to 0w-40 instead, a little thinner at startup and a little thicker when hot in addition to it having the holy grail VW 502.00 approval.


----------



## StreetSpeed2000 (Oct 21, 2001)

*Re: (corradokidg60)*

I do use 0w-40 when I can find it, but whatever I'm doin' seems to be working methinks.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: (StreetSpeed2000)*

I replaced mine this weekend; it looked pretty similar to the one in the picture above after 46K with stock software. My cam did have a few scratches on the lobe. Should I be worried?


----------



## JeepNGLI (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: (b0mb3r)*

Sent you a pm JC.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (JeepNGLI)*

Just had my follower replaced for the third time since the Autotech install.
While the CF didn't seem that bad, it was the first time i observed actually "pitting" in the antifriction coating....








Also, this is my A cam during the install.There are what seem like deep scratches on the left side, but after closer investigation and palpation, nothing too deep could be sensed.Probably the reflection on the camshaft.
Anyways, how do you guys think the cam looks like ??


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

i wonder if it would be possible to use an accumulator setup of some sort. keeping an abundant supply of pressurized gas for our injectors and not putting as much wear and tear on the fp?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Any opinions on the camshaft ??


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Silence...thats good...
It means all is well, or nobody has a clue


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

Or it's impossible to tell anything from that photo.


----------



## stefanosTFSI (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

all is well







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (stefanosTFSI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stefanosTFSI* »_all is well







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Eeeexcellent.....


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

So...as to make a resume for the questions on my head







>
- 06F 109 101 A and B are the 2 camshafts found on the GTI. Is the one from S3 any different from theese ones ?
- How would a very expensive option like Schrick cams (1800-2000$) help things out? How are theese cams better than OEM ones ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_So...as to make a resume for the questions on my head







>
- 06F 109 101 A and B are the 2 camshafts found on the GTI. Is the one from S3 any different from theese ones ?
- How would a very expensive option like Schrick cams (1800-2000$) help things out? How are theese cams better than OEM ones ?

S3 cams have different part number but no one knows if their characteristics are different.Matterial is also in question.I also haven't heard of anyone installing them, so i have no clue if they fit...
Schrick have billet steel camshafts so i guess they are more durable than OEM, plus they have more lift (as for duration i haven't seen any OEM cam info).
Talking to a dealer in Germany, he said a gain of up to 25 HP is possible.I'm guessing even more with a K04...


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Talking to a dealer in Germany, he said a gain of up to 25 HP is possible.I'm guessing even more with a K04... 

What did performance cafe have to say about them...


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
What did performance cafe have to say about them...









They said these are made by a company called ....Shrick....
Weird huh ???


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Superchips made several GTIs, ED30 and S3 here. They say the cams from S3/ED30 allow them to get about 20 more Hp with the OEM pump wich is the same on all models ! As for the aftermarket pumps, all of the guys with S3/ED30 had no problems yet (one of them replaced the pump for being defective but nothing happened to the follower) !


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Superchips made several GTIs, ED30 and S3 here. They say the cams from S3/ED30 allow them to get about 20 more Hp with the OEM pump wich is the same on all models ! As for the aftermarket pumps, all of the guys with S3/ED30 had no problems yet (one of them replaced the pump for being defective but nothing happened to the follower) !

Wow wow...Wait a minute....
There is a difference between a)getting 20 more HP from cams because "supposedly" they maybe have some difference in the fuel lobe, and
b)because the S3 cams have different lift and/or duration characteristics...
Are you saying that Superchips has TRIED the S3 camshaft conversion on a 200 bhp BPY/AXX/BWA motor and has gotten 20 HP more than from the OEM cams ??
Or you are just saying that an S3/Ed30 can get 20 BHP more from tuning than a standard TFSI?
Cause there is a difference.If what you are actually saying is the second (and no cam switches have been made) then its says nothing about the value of the S3/Ed 30 cams.There are too many factors/changes in head design etc that can be blamed for the difference in BHP.Its not necessarily the cams...
I sure would like some more info though.I want some kind of proof S3 cams do SOMETHING...


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Unfortunately no one has changed the cam to a S3 one. Theese differences have been spotted between GTI and ED30/S3 so this doesn't say much. I'll investigate some more on ETOS and ETKA to see other differences between AXX/BWA and BHZ engines !


----------



## Micky32 (Sep 11, 2005)

Regarding the oil, here in Ireland my 2.0 TFSI came out of the factory with the longlife oil. That oil was also designed for PD TDI engines that have cams that are under high pressure so maybe that oil might be help against wear?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Unfortunately no one has changed the cam to a S3 one. Theese differences have been spotted between GTI and ED30/S3 so this doesn't say much. I'll investigate some more on ETOS and ETKA to see other differences between AXX/BWA and BHZ engines !

This has already been covered extensively.
What you COULD try is to find the durations/lift for the Gti vs the S3/Ed30.
I have been looking for these for some time now with no luck...
It good give us something to work on.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

GTI camshaft > 06F 109 101 B
S3 camshaft > 06F 109 101 G
Price here is the same for both > 380$ !
No one knows anything about durations/lift it seems. I will ask Superchips about this as they've tuned many S3/Cupra 2/ED30 !


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_GTI camshaft > 06F 109 101 B
S3 camshaft > 06F 109 101 G

 
That's what cam intake? or exhaust cam? or its the set? 
If anyone gets there hands on a set, I bet Bob.Q would roll it on his Cam doctor and we could find out ALL the spec's including the fuel pump lobe with just only 1mm increase supplies alot more fuel







Bob.G


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 7:20 PM 9-26-2008_


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Those would be intake
For exhaust we have >
GTI > 06F 109 102 B
ED30/S3 > 06F 109 102 D
Price would be about the same for exhaust cams also, so for a set expect to pay about 760$


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Yes these are the part numbers, but since the cylinder head is also 
different, who can tell if they mount the same ??
Also, since these cars (S3 vs GTI) have a different "static compression", it also means they have a different "effective compression", and the cams "probably" are tuned for that.No one knows what effect they will have unless someone tries them out...
I would mind a 20 BHP boost though.And these are pretty cheap also.
Around 190 Euro+VAT for each cam....


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_
Price would be about the same for exhaust cams also, so for a set expect to pay about 760$
 
I would wait for a set of CAT cams for that money.
The Cat FI cams have shown good gains with the 1.8T ( with a bigger turbo ) with little sacrifice on low end power , im sure the worn cam / follower problem is playing a role why its taking so long for a set of cams for the 2L TFSI engine to be released .

I know Bob.Q has been working on getting a set of cat cams maybe he can chime in with and update







Bob. G


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Yeah....
But when is that gonna happen?
[email protected] also mentioned the CAT cams.
Wish there was some way of getting a launch date...


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

I just had a look at a pic of the Schricks and something caught my eye...
Is it me or is the pump lobe bigger than in the OEM cams ??

Could be my imagination...but then again...??

_Modified by GolfRS at 12:57 AM 9-28-2008_


_Modified by GolfRS at 10:37 PM 10-6-2008_


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Don't know but S3 lobe is a little bigger for sure as the guys from Superchips compared 2 camshafts, one from GTI and one from S3 ! Why are Schricks so expensive ? Never heard about CAT. Are they of good quality ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Don't know but S3 lobe is a little bigger for sure as the guys from Superchips compared 2 camshafts, one from GTI and one from S3 ! Why are Schricks so expensive ? Never heard about CAT. Are they of good quality ?

So did you ask them what the S3 characteristics are ?
Having a bigger fuel lobe (i hope thats what you meant) means the pump piston 
is gonna travel more inside the pump but.....is that possible ?There is a limit 
as to how much travel the piston has, and i can't imagine the difference with the S3 cams being that big so as to offer better fueling.
Besides those of us with aftermarket pumps have already solved this problem.
Its the matterial and lift/duration that matters.
As for the CAT cams, they are a known company,i can't speak for their quality though.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_

Its the matterial and lift/duration that matters.
As for the CAT cams, they are a known company,i can't speak for their quality though.
 
I have heard and seen nothing but good about them in the years I've been on the Tex with good quality and consistency and resulting increase power . 
Im not sure if the 2LTFSI engine is going to be different but with the 1.8T they have two different types of camshafts . 
One is like a OEM replacement that's CAST and good for most and a BILLET set that would be used for extreme/ racing use made for higher RPM and heavy duty use.
The cast set with the 1.8T where priced similar to the S3 that's mentioned above and the billet set priced similar to the shricks billet set







Bob.G


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Yes, I was talkin about the fuel lobe. We have had no failure on cam followers and camshafts here from what I know on S3/ED30. So...when you say those with aftermarket pumps solved the problem, you mean you know the cause but you can't solve it yet, no ? My AT pump will be here in 2 weeks and I've also ordered a follower wich I'll only replace if the current one is worn badly !


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Yes, I was talkin about the fuel lobe. We have had no failure on cam followers and camshafts here from what I know on S3/ED30. So...when you say those with aftermarket pumps solved the problem, you mean you know the cause but you can't solve it yet, no ? My AT pump will be here in 2 weeks and I've also ordered a follower wich I'll only replace if the current one is worn badly !

Well as i said, i don't know if the material of the S3 cams is superior to the GTI cams (or better, if the S3 cam is better than the B cam).If the material is the same, then durability isn't an issue with the B cam either, and we are just talking about the duration and lift characteristics.
Rumor has it (i haven't the slightest if its an actual fact) that the S3/Cupra ECU fuel management is a bit more lenient and allows more deviation in actual/specified fuel pressure, thus having fewer (if any) fuel cuts.All of the above means, its the OEM ECU software that prevents the cuts, and not the actual fuel lobe.
And that pretty much makes sense, since piston travel is fixed inside the pump (or else the aftermarket manufacturers would have changed its size, just its length), and since the pumps used by the above models have the same part number, do additional travel by a bigger lobe would be allowed....


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, in 2 weeks, Superchips & VWracing will prepare a GTI for their cup in UK. They said they will use S3 camshafts (don't know if the exhaust one too) and will see the results. What they know at this moment is that they do fit and work with the GTI cylinder head. Another thing is, they built a GTI with k04, S3 injectors, S3 IC and OEM pump. This GTI managed to get to 295-300HP as compared to the 310 on S3/ED30 wich means the lobe of the S3 is responsible for the extra amount of power !


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Ok, in 2 weeks, Superchips & VWracing will prepare a GTI for their cup in UK. They said they will use S3 camshafts (don't know if the exhaust one too) and will see the results. What they know at this moment is that they do fit and work with the GTI cylinder head. Another thing is, they built a GTI with k04, S3 injectors, S3 IC and OEM pump. This GTI managed to get to 295-300HP as compared to the 310 on S3/ED30 wich means the lobe of the S3 is responsible for the extra amount of power !

No. The S3/ED30 uses lower compression pistons.
Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

The S3 has a different cylinder head.Its not necessarily the camshafts.
Best bet would be to get the specs from ELSA.
Hopefully it's there...


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Yes, I know about the lower compression pistons but they suspect the increased power comes from the camshaft !


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

mine went... bah... can't wait to see what other damage it did to my car... even though I warned the dealership about this when my fuel pump was done... hey... at least its warranty


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

What camshaft yvrnycracer ? Please post pics !


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

not sure... its in the dealership awaiting parts... I will see if I can get pics of the parts that are done...


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## rob32 (Jul 21, 2005)

Just checked my pump and follower and everything looks very healthy, the pump tip, the follower inside and out, and the cam lobe...car has almost 23k on it, been stage 1 since about 1500 miles, and stage 2 since about 13k. I did have the Audi dealership I work at replace the fuel pump about 8-9k ago because the top sensor had a crack on it, and the sensor could only be replaced with the pump, So I got an updated pump out of it. I was kind of hoping the pump would've been screwed so that I can have my dealer replace it, the cam, and follower and it would give me an excuse for an upgraded hpfp since I have been getting fuel cuts a bit more often lately. Also PEOPLE!!!This is extremely easy to check, takes 15 minutes at most, and is some very safe insurance. So get up and check this every so often, so that you don't get any surprises!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (rob32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rob32* »_Also PEOPLE!!!This is extremely easy to check *if you have the bamboo fitting*, takes 15 minutes at most (*45 minutes, torn up hands and a headache if you have the banjo bolt to deal with*), and is some very safe insurance. So get up and check this every so often, so that you don't get any surprises!

Fixed that for ya...


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## rob32 (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Fixed that for ya...









haha I guess I've got a lucky 07


----------



## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: (rob32)*

An S3 intake camshaft , runs perfect in a k04ed BWA (2007 model ) for over 10.000 miles , now . The dyno after installing the cam , showed an extra 8 hp up top at the wheels ( MAHA ) . The ECU is custom chipped .


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (NoTsipa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoTsipa* »_An S3 intake camshaft , runs perfect in a k04ed BWA (2007 model ) for over 10.000 miles , now . The dyno after installing the cam , showed an extra 8 hp up top at the wheels ( MAHA ) . The ECU is custom chipped . 

Interesting.
Do you also have the exhaust camshaft or just the intake ?
Was the difference also down in the revs or just up top ?
And did you lose any torque down low ?
It would help if you have any dyno pics from before 
and after the camshaft change...


_Modified by GolfRS at 2:31 PM 10-3-2008_


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Wow, great news. So at least the intake camshaft from S3should work on all GTIs. We have 2 S3 cars here. Both are on stock k04 turbo and injectors. Both have Milltek full turbo-back and EVOMS. One of them has APR HPFP, the other has stock pump so the fuel pump is the only difference between them. The software is also the same for both. The car having APR HPFP reaches 380HP and no fuel cuts. The car having stock pump reaches 340HP at about 5800-6000RPM and then dramatically goes down to 300HP until the redline. Between 6000 and 7000RPMs the stock pump has 10-20bar less pressure than requested ! The guy also had KMD pump and had the exact same results as APR but the pump seized and he replaced it with APR ! No problems whatsoever with the cam followers and camshafts on S3/ED30 here yet !


----------



## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Interesting.
Do you also have the exhaust camshaft or just the intake ?
Was the difference also down in the revs or just up top ?
And did you lose any torque down low ?
It would help if you have any dyno pics from before 
and after the camshaft change...

_Modified by GolfRS at 2:31 PM 10-3-2008_

The car has only the intake cam . The only difference with the OEM one is the duration . 
No significant changes down low , perfect , OEM iddling .
Sorry , no pics avaliable - hope you dont call me again a terrorist or misinformer . 


_Modified by NoTsipa at 11:04 AM 10-3-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (NoTsipa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoTsipa* »_
The car has only the intake cam . The only difference with the OEM one is the duration . 
No significant changes down low , perfect , OEM iddling .
Sorry , no pics avaliable - hope you dont call me again a terrorist or misinformer . 

_Modified by NoTsipa at 11:04 AM 10-3-2008_

So you gained 8 whp on a MAHA (which measures crank horsepower BTW, its wheel measure is useless) from just the intake camshaft ?
As for "down low" i was referring to the power/torque, and not the idle, but hey idle is nice also.
Oh and i didn't call you a terrorist, i just said you don't back up what you claim.
But i'm sure you don't do that anymore......


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

So, NoTsipa, just to be sure :
This is the cam u had before : 06F 109 101 A or B
This is the cam you have now : 06F 109 101 G
Is this correct ? How much did u pay for it ?


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, Superchips run some test on a GTI in UK and they've also gained 10HP from just the S3 intake camshaft. It seems this camshaft is indeed better !


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Ok, Superchips run some test on a GTI in UK and they've also gained 10HP from just the S3 intake camshaft. It seems this camshaft is indeed better !

A small birdie told me there have been misfire problems with the S3 camshafts.
Now the case above used both the S3 intake AND exhaust camshaft, but its quite
possible to have misfires with just an intake cam also.
I sure would like to be certain instead of going around switching cams....


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

It probably depends a lot on the software used. I've heard of no such problems with only intake S3 camshaft on a AXX/BWA engine ! Still...I agree with you there's not a lot of info on the market yet regarding S3 camshafts on GTIs. We'll have to wait and see !
PS : I don't quite understand what you're saying. The guy says very clearly that he put only intake cam on his BWA, so what "case above" are you talkin about ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_It probably depends a lot on the software used. I've heard of no such problems with only intake S3 camshaft on a AXX/BWA engine ! Still...I agree with you there's not a lot of info on the market yet regarding S3 camshafts on GTIs. We'll have to wait and see !
PS : I don't quite understand what you're saying. The guy says very clearly that he put only intake cam on his BWA, so what "case above" are you talkin about ?

As i said a friend of mine heard about a case where BOTH the S3 cams where installed.I don't know of any power figures, but even though he used custom software,he got misfires, and thought about uninstalling them.
Don't know if installing just the intake cam would prevent the misfires or not, but i would think it would effect the "effective compresison" with unknown consequences...


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

wow, this thread is huge. quick question, only because i don't feel like reading through all 20 pages of this, but what is it that makes people know that they should check the cam follower? what signs should one look for to know that could potentially be a problem?
also, is this only suggested for those with an HDFP, or anybody that is modded? i have a GIAC Chip, EJ FMIC, Intake, and EJ TBE, should i probably look into this?


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_wow, this thread is huge. quick question, only because i don't feel like reading through all 20 pages of this, but what is it that makes people know that they should check the cam follower? what signs should one look for to know that could potentially be a problem?
also, is this only suggested for those with an HDFP, or anybody that is modded? i have a GIAC Chip, EJ FMIC, Intake, and EJ TBE, should i probably look into this?

anybody?


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Ah, ok. In the next few days my pump should be here. I will log 115, 120 and 230 before & after to see the results !


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, fuel pump and new follower are here. I've also ordered the S3 intake cam. Next week I'll have them on my car. I've also made the logs with the current setup and will make them again after the echanges ! Hope everything will go fine !


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Ok, fuel pump and new follower are here. I've also ordered the S3 intake cam. Next week I'll have them on my car. I've also made the logs with the current setup and will make them again after the echanges ! Hope everything will go fine !

Thats good news.Let us know about how the cam performs (any misfires etc)
What was the price of the camshaft ?
What software will you be using , and have you dynoed (or will you dyno before)
to see the actual power difference with the cam ?


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I won't dyno. Vag-Com is enough for me. The cam was the equivalent of 330$. The software will be custom made by Superchips and they've said they already tested the cam on several GTIs with great results. They are already offering a stage 4 on their web > http://www.superchips.ro/chip-....html


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_I won't dyno. Vag-Com is enough for me. The cam was the equivalent of 330$. The software will be custom made by Superchips and they've said they already tested the cam on several GTIs with great results. They are already offering a stage 4 on their web > http://www.superchips.ro/chip-....html

Why not dyno ?
VAG COM is not a dynamometer, it doesn't give you any correct measurements once the car is chipped/modified.How do you plan to check what the cam has given you vs a normal B cam ?

Also, why doesn't Superchips also recommend the exhaust cam ?Is that what is causing the misfires ? (if any)
And another thing.Is that stage 4 with a K03S turbo ?If so its pretty optimistic..
If on the other hand its with a K04, then i would say you really don't need a camshaft to get those power levels (308 BHP)..


_Modified by GolfRS at 12:49 PM 10-9-2008_


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I don't have time for dyno during the day unfortunately. Stage 4 is with k04 and S3 camshaft but OEM pump. That's why they stay at 308HP. With an aftermarket pump they've told me i should see 340-350HP wich is more than enough for me !
Some other news :
- Another KMD pump on an ED30 went bad and some petrol was found in the oil.
- My friend with S3 put his Autotech pump today and it seems to work very good until now. Tonight we'll make some logs !


_Modified by fuscobal at 5:46 PM 10-9-2008_


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_wow, this thread is huge. quick question, only because i don't feel like reading through all 20 pages of this, but what is it that makes people know that they should check the cam follower? what signs should one look for to know that could potentially be a problem?
also, is this only suggested for those with an HDFP, or anybody that is modded? i have a GIAC Chip, EJ FMIC, Intake, and EJ TBE, should i probably look into this?

again, i would like an answer to this


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Dude, wouldn't it just be easier to read the whole 20 pages than put the same question all over again ? I had the same question but just after reading everything I've started putting questions !
Did some logs tonight with my friend. Pump works perfectly fine, no fuel cuts but he's on stock air filter and this shows massively. His Evoms should arrive soon though !


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

I also contacted Superchips, and they told me they install BOTH intake and exhaust cams.Are you sure the software is gonna work as it should with just the intake cam??


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

They've told me intake one should do the trick. We'll see next week. If not I will take the other one too ! I want this camshaft/follower/HPFP to be very clear before moving to k04 !


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_They've told me intake one should do the trick. We'll see next week. If not I will take the other one too ! I want this camshaft/follower/HPFP to be very clear before moving to k04 !

Its pretty costly to change the camshafts in theis engine, cause as everyone says its pretty complicated.I would think that just by buying the exhaust cams also and doing the install together, you will actually almost be buying the exhaust cam for...free (considering the money you will have to re spend for the 2nd installation)
Don't forget cams come as a pair.The exhaust and intake cam are "tuned" to each other.Its not just a matter of performance....And for 240 Euro...Do you really wanna risk it ??


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

While u were writing the reply I was ordering the exhaust cam also







)) It seems my friend who represents Superchips here misunderstood. Both cams are needed indeed !


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_While u were writing the reply I was ordering the exhaust cam also







)) It seems my friend who represents Superchips here misunderstood. Both cams are needed indeed !

Yep...You see ?
But once again, for me, try and get somehow a dyno, or a way to measure the
power gain from the camshafts.
Its VERY IMPORTANT, not just for you, (to see if your money was put to good use (you could get 308 BHP without spending the money for the cams, so paying for lets say 5 BHP isn't that nice..)), but also for other that may be thinking of the same conversion.
Let us know how it goes...


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## emo_dubber (May 11, 2007)

*Re: (Raring 2 Go)*

how can you tell that it needs to be replaced? how can u tell how bad the wear is?


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Well, 308HP is the standard software. I could get there without the cams but the problem is the software that's waiting for me is gonna give me 340-350HP !


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Well, 308HP is the standard software. I could get there without the cams but the problem is the software that's waiting for me is gonna give me 340-350HP !


Once again you can reach those levels without the cams...
The point is, are the cams gonna give you 10 BHP ?
And how are you gonna know this if you don't dyno ??


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Claims of 380 on a k04 is outrageous and 340-350 claims better be crank numbers on race fuel, otherwise, I'd hit up a few other dynos....


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Claims of 380 on a k04 is outrageous and 340-350 claims better be crank numbers on race fuel, otherwise, I'd hit up a few other dynos....

Arin, i could post my dyno, but i won't.
Lets just say 370 crank is indeed feasible, and maybe 380 on a highly tuned engine...
"Race fuel" as you call it may actually be premium fuel in other parts of the world.


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Agree with GolfRS. Our premium fuel is your race fuel and indeed 380 crank seems to be the limit with k04. Hey, anybody knows how much time would take to change the cams ?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Agree with GolfRS. Our premium fuel is your race fuel and indeed 380 crank seems to be the limit with k04. Hey, anybody knows how much time would take to change the cams ?

People say about 7-8 hours full work.
But i haven't done that so...


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Soem pics with the cam-follower and fuel pump from an Audi S3. The car has 60k km from wich about 20k with software stage 1 and 2 !



There were only superficial scratches but nothing to worry about in my opinion !


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Nothing to worry ??
That CF is a gonner....And with a stock pump ?
Have any picks of your camshaft ?
I am guessing its an A type since you have an AXX.Just wanna compare it to mine.


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I didn't open mine yet. That one's from myfriend with S3 and it's not a gonner. The car was stock for 40k and modified to about 320HP for another 20k ! 2 days ago he replaced the pump and follower !


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_I didn't open mine yet. That one's from myfriend with S3 and it's not a gonner. The car was stock for 40k and modified to about 320HP for another 20k ! 2 days ago he replaced the pump and follower !

I have bad news i am afraid...
After a small conversation with MTM's tech over here i was told the S3/ED30 camsahfts DON'T FIT the AXX/BWA engines....








Be very carefull with what you do.
You could "squeeze" them to fit, but that would mean log term damage to the engine!!!
I have no idea how Superchips "fit them" to the Gti, but i have a tendency to trust the MTM tech over some company thousands of miles away...
Just a word of warning before you do something you might regret....


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## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Well , lets have a deal here ! Once you post up your dyno plot , I'll post a pic of a fitted S3 cam in a BWA , plus a dyno plot










_Modified by NoTsipa at 3:35 AM 10-13-2008_


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (NoTsipa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoTsipa* »_Well , lets have a deal here ! Once you post up your dyno plot , I'll post a pic of a fitted S3 cam in a BWA !









1)Why would you want to see my dyno plot
2)You may have a shoe size of 8 1/2 and buy and wear 7 1/2.Does that
mean that if you show me your shoes on your foot i am going to go and buy the same size ?
I guess it depends on you technician.I choose to trust who i know to be good.
Others can do what they want....


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Guys, these are serious words. NoTsipa, can you say if they fit inside with the same easiness as the OEm ones ?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Guys, these are serious words. NoTsipa, can you say if they fit inside with the same easiness as the OEm ones ?
 
Im gonna take a guess that they would prob phyically will fit but the concern maybe because of the lower compression of the S3 engine the piston height is lower .
This maybe a problem with the increase lift of the s3 cam causing inference on the higher compression ( higher piston height ) of the TFSI 2L engines . Bob.G


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Hmm, spoke with Superchips again and they say more cars in VW racing cup are using S3 cams and K04. They are limited to 250HP there but they use larger turbo in order to provide the maximum power for the entire rpm range ! 
http://www.vw-cup.co.uk/


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## TypeR #126 (May 10, 2006)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Im gonna take a guess that they would prob phyically will fit but the concern maybe because of the lower compression of the S3 engine the piston height is lower .
This maybe a problem with the increase lift of the s3 cam causing inference on the higher compression ( higher piston height ) of the TFSI 2L engines . Bob.G









I'd have to agree with Bob on this one, as there is no such thing as "squeezing" cams to make them fit.
You're going to want to clay the motor to see just how much valve clearance you have before turning the engine over. It may be close enough that contact could be a concern if the valves start to float.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Im gonna take a guess that they would prob phyically will fit but the concern maybe because of the lower compression of the S3 engine the piston height is lower .
This maybe a problem with the increase lift of the s3 cam causing inference on the higher compression ( higher piston height ) of the TFSI 2L engines . Bob.G









As i already said (and its not my idea) the tech told me it has to do with the
"cam retainers ?" (don't know the English term for that), and that in order for the S3 cams to fit, he would have to "tighten" them more (or something to that effect, techs here can help) and that would mean long term damage to the engine.He also said that in order for the transplant to be correct, the whole of the S3 cylinder head would have to be installed (which of course is cost prohibiting..)
You guys can make of the above what you want...


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, opened up the engine today in order to replace the camshafts and fuel pump/follower. First of all let me say removing the old camshafts was a pain in the ass and took the whole day, not to mention that we weren't able to remove the hydraulic ring on found at one end of the exhaust camshaft. The screw was so tight we broke 2 torx and couldn't take it off. We're gonna try again tomorrow. Now, some conclusions for today :
- At 60.000km (40k miles), my fuel pump, cam follower and camshaft lobe looked almost like new. The follower had even the coating intact and absolutely no scratches on the lobe. Contact area for the OEm pump (F based model..oldest I think) seems to be 2 times bigger than the one of Autotech pump ( H based coding).
- S3 camshafts are very similar to ours, only some minor differences..U'll see in pics !


\






In this last picture you can see the ring we weren't able to pull out from the camshaft. Any idea like heating the camshaft or something ?


_Modified by fuscobal at 11:48 PM 10-17-2008_


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Ok, opened up the engine today in order to replace the camshafts and fuel pump/follower. First of all let me say removing the old camshafts was a pain in the ass and took the whole day, not to mention that we weren't able to remove the hydraulic ring on found at one end of the exhaust camshaft. The screw was so tight we broke 2 torx and couldn't take it off. We're gonna try again tomorrow. Now, some conclusions for today :
- At 60.000km (40k miles), my fuel pump, cam follower and camshaft lobe looked almost like new. The follower had even the coating intact and absolutely no scratches on the lobe. Contact area for the OEm pump (F based model..oldest I think) seems to be 2 times bigger than the one of Autotech pump ( H based coding).
- S3 camshafts are very similar to ours, only some minor differences..U'll see in pics !

_Modified by fuscobal at 11:48 PM 10-17-2008_

Good news about the camshaft.My car is similar to your (i also have the AXX) and my lobe seems pretty ok even though i've been using the Autotech fro 20.000+ miles now.
Looking at the 2 intake cams side by side, something peculiar comes to mind.Considering your camshaft doesn't show that much wear,me fuel pump lobe seems A LOT different between the two.Your (and mine) A cam has a longer "duration" at peak than the S3 cam.What effect that has on the pump/fueling i can't tell.An interesting observation none the less...
Also, you mention some differences between the cams.Does your technician have any "camshaft measuring tool" ?It would be interesting to actually finally have some NUMBERS behind the claims, numbers like lift/duration etc.
Did you ask him what i said about the cams not matching the cylinder head ?
Can he be certain there won't be a long term problem with the engine ?
Let us know how it goes...


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

After having a look at both cams again, i noticed there is also a difference in the way the lobes are positioned to each other...
Are you SURE these will fit the AXX ?


----------



## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

There is only difference betwen the cams ... 60K kilometers


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (NoTsipa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoTsipa* »_There is only difference betwen the cams ... 60K kilometers









Sorry?
Did you say dyno ?
It really doesn't matter what you do to your engine.Just don't spread bad advice.Its important.
As i said, i can give you a phone number to call and ask if you "can install S3 cams to your engine".Don't say you did, just say you WANT TO.
And then if the tech doesn't convince you NOT TO, i pass...


_Modified by GolfRS at 8:22 PM 10-18-2008_


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

S3 Camshafts and pump are on the car. everything works fine until now. Absolutely no difference relative to stock. Didn't have time to WOT and do some logs for the pump but I'll do it tomorrow !


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## NoTsipa (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Sorry?
Did you say dyno ?
It really doesn't matter what you do to your engine.Just don't spread bad advice.Its important.
As i said, i can give you a phone number to call and ask if you "can install S3 cams to your engine".Don't say you did, just say you WANT TO.
And then if the tech doesn't convince you NOT TO, i pass...

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:22 PM 10-18-2008_


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_S3 Camshafts and pump are on the car. everything works fine until now. ]








Send me the phone number


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (NoTsipa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoTsipa* »_
Send me the phone number

I have sent you the phone number.Enjoy...
I hope you are still laughing after you call...
You can also contact them....here...
*[email protected]*
P.S. Yes..its "that" company...



_Modified by GolfRS at 8:25 PM 10-19-2008_


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Did the first logs with the same software as before. I will update the software tomorrow !

Once again...there is no such thing as squeezing in the camshaft. It either enters or not. In this case it entered with the same easiness as the OEm one !


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Did the first logs with the same software as before. I will update the software tomorrow !

Once again...there is no such thing as squeezing in the camshaft. It either enters or not. In this case it entered with the same easiness as the OEm one !

As i said above "squeezing" is not the proper word.What the tech said is that its not a PERFECT FIT.Now if you guys wanna make your cars test subjects, by all means DO SO.
Just give me a reason (HP) to accept the possible long term engine damage...
Anbd as for the graphs...i see no real difference....










_Modified by GolfRS at 3:17 AM 10-20-2008_


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## Sandman333 (Oct 28, 2002)

I haven't read every post in this thread, so excuse me if this has been suggested before- but why not design a roller follower for the pump cam lobe? Would this not solve the problem of follower wear?
Alternatively, what about adding a high dose of moly to the engine oil? Moly lube is designed for such high pressure metal/metal contact.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Sandman333)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sandman333* »_I haven't read every post in this thread, so excuse me if this has been suggested before- but why not design a roller follower for the pump cam lobe? Would this not solve the problem of follower wear?
Alternatively, what about adding a high dose of moly to the engine oil? Moly lube is designed for such high pressure metal/metal contact.

The new engine design does use a roller follower. Making one work for this setup would require some serious and expensive redevelopment. to take place. 
We suggest coating the follower with moly grease before reinstalling it.


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I concur about the moly grease upon install. My only question/addition to this thread is why not fabricate an accumulator for our fueling application. it would suppress surges/fuel cuts and it would take the work load off our obviously poorly designed mechanical fuel system... An accumulator after our hpfp could be the answer to our fuel cut problems and to the abuse we put on these seemingly inadequate camshafts.... 
I may be way off with this idea, it just popped in my head and i figured i would throw it out there for arguments sake... so take it easy if my idea is completely retarded!!


----------



## Sandman333 (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

The new engine, meaning which engine code? The CCTA or whatever that combo of letters is?
What do I have on my 2008 BPY engine? It would seem that if the aftermarket companies are designing their own HPFP as an upgrade anway, why not do it right and make it a roller follower? Would this require removal of the stock camshaft to turn the pump cam to a smaller base circle? I can see that as a problem, as that is usually what is done when going from a flat tappet cam to a roller cam.
Would it be beneficial for me to remove my follower and coat it with moly grease on my stock engine (currently 1600 miles).


----------



## Sandman333 (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (Sandman333)*

Ok, finally got through reading the whole thread. Moly grease seems like a good idea, and the BPY engine is affected.
One question remains- would extra moly additives during oil changes be a good idea to help prevent this?
What about adapting the new roller designed CF to the older engines- even possible?


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_I would wait for a set of CAT cams for that money.

Anyone have any other news?
A few months back I was told an October release.
Then more recenty, 3 weeks ago, I have been told this:

_Quote, originally posted by *Cat Cams* »_ 
We will be very happy when we can bring them to our stand in PRI.
Actual target is start selling from jan. onwards.
We are under terrible pressure for releasing new stuff;


Any of you look into the stock/factory naturally aspirated cams?
Sorry if that has been mentioned, this was a long post to follow.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Even if Cat cams releases a set of cams, you'll still be needing new software, and i highly doubt any of the major companies are gonna want to follow this...
And they better put out some numbers, cause God knows we are still waiting for PerfCafe's Schrick results, and their "disappearing" thread...


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Even if Cat cams releases a set of cams, you'll still be needing new software...

No direct injection here, so not a problem there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I hear you though, the next deal will be cries of no software for the cams, and it will start all over again.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Did the first logs with the same software as before. I will update the software tomorrow !

Once again...there is no such thing as squeezing in the camshaft. It either enters or not. In this case it entered with the same easiness as the OEm one !

Any updates ?? 
P.S.NoTsipa, did you call the number i gave you ??


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

can anybody point me in the right direction on where to find a new follower? maybe i am blind, but i can't find one.


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_can anybody point me in the right direction on where to find a new follower? maybe i am blind, but i can't find one.

nevermind, found emm on World Impex for $56.86, and also on 1stvwparts.com for $44 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
pretty scared to be doing this because my car has 44K on it, has seen the track several times and has been on the dyno twice putting down over 240whp (on my old setup) so i may not like what i see. i will def. post up some pics when i see the damage


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

Is this cam follower under warranty for my car? (2008 GTI with 11,000 miles) 
I just pulled mine & it's wasted.


























_Modified by rippie74 at 11:41 AM 10-21-2008_


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_Is this cam follower under warranty for my car? (2008 GTI with 11,000 miles) 
I just pulled mine & it's wasted.

with your list of mods, i am not sure. i pretty much have all the same stuff, just different brands plus an FMIC, but they might try to give you some crap considering all of the stuff modded to your car. always worth a shot though


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_
with your list of mods, i am not sure. i pretty much have all the same stuff, just different brands plus an FMIC, but they might try to give you some crap considering all of the stuff modded to your car. always worth a shot though

Is it possible that _our stock fuel pumps _can utilize _the APR HPFP cam follower _to fix this issue???


----------



## dietcokefiend (Jul 11, 2007)

Roller followers need guides in the follower channel to keep it from spinning around. The entire housing would need to be custom machined to accept the different follower design.


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (dietcokefiend)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dietcokefiend* »_Roller followers need guides in the follower channel to keep it from spinning around. The entire housing would need to be custom machined to accept the different follower design. 

SH http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif T


----------



## whitemax (May 9, 2008)

I just read 21 of b1tching back and forth and 1 page of decent info. I would try but I am still trying to absorb everything and figure what is good info and what is opinions. Can someone summarize these 22 pages?


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (whitemax)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whitemax* »_I just read 21 of b1tching back and forth and 1 page of decent info. I would try but I am still trying to absorb everything and figure what is good info and what is opinions. Can someone summarize these 22 pages?

Summary: check you cam follower & replace it if it looks like mine.


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
Summary: check you cam follower & replace it if it looks like mine.

thats putting it in a nut shell


----------



## whitemax (May 9, 2008)

One more quick question, if there are so many hpfp failing (stock) then wouldnt / should there be a recall frm Audi?


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_
with your list of mods, i am not sure. i pretty much have all the same stuff, just different brands plus an FMIC, but they might try to give you some crap considering all of the stuff modded to your car. always worth a shot though

It's being fixed right now @ the dealership http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
It's being fixed right now @ the dealership http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

good deal man, its faster and easier for me to do mine by myself since my dealer is over an hour away. besides, dealers sometimes say they will do something and never do it just to get my money, then i go home and check it myself, in all of that time i could have changed it 20 times.


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
_the APR HPFP cam follower _








no such thing as an APR cam follower. and I agree x100000 with Arin that moly grease is critical on the install of a new follower. 
i recently checked my follower after 10k miles with the APR hpfp, and just like [email protected] i had no signs of wear whatsoever http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (Spax MC)*

any particular brand of Moly Grease that people are using?


----------



## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

when I do them here at the shop, just use the high-temo moly lube that you get from ARP for installation of their hardware. I have not had any issues with my personal car since replacement.....check every 10K. But it has been down for 30K+ now. But basically moly lube in general will work, just have a tons of it from all the ARP stuff I have done. 
-J. Hines


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (jhines68mustang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines68mustang* »_when I do them here at the shop, just use the high-temo moly lube that you get from ARP for installation of their hardware. I have not had any issues with my personal car since replacement.....check every 10K. But it has been down for 30K+ now. But basically moly lube in general will work, just have a tons of it from all the ARP stuff I have done. 
-J. Hines

good info, but doesn't really tell me much. what about synthetic bearing grease, same deal?


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

*UPDATE:* I just got off the phone with the service tech.... 
They are doing *MAJOR REPAIR WORK *to my *2008* _VW GTI_
What I (& they) thought was just going to be the replacement of my _fuel pump cam-follower_, upon further inspection it turns out that they will be replacing alot more than that.
Parts that are being replaced after _only 11,000 miles _are as follows:
*1.* _FSI Fuel Pump._
*2. *_FSI Fuel Pump Camshaft._ (My 2008 GTI actually had the "_soft cam_" even thought my VIN # states that I have the updated engine with newer/stronger parts.)
*3.* _The *entire* PCV System_.
This is quite a shock, I mean that I never expected this... Thank God I checked my cam-follower & made a phone call about it being replaced under warranty. 
The tech said that in another few months my car could have exploded due to the cam-follower & related parts. Fuel pump & or camshaft failure which = broken parts flying around inside the motor, would more than likely mean replace entire motor.








I probably won't get the car back until Monday 10/27/08



_Modified by rippie74 at 3:55 PM 10-23-2008_


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_any particular brand of Moly Grease that people are using?

i don't have it laying around but i got it at autozone....the tube is gray with red lettering http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
any brand should do and make sure you coat the entire follower http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (rippie74)*

All of these issues are related to the fuel pump lobe, and follower itself, yes? I don't read this forum too often really, and I just want to make sure it's not the entire cam. I have removed all of that BS, but if the actual cams themselves have a chance to be an issue, they're are coming out!


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_All of these issues are related to the fuel pump lobe, and follower itself, yes? I don't read this forum too often really, and I just want to make sure it's not the entire cam. I have removed all of that BS, but if the actual cams themselves have a chance to be an issue, they're are coming out!

This is involving *ONLY* the *MKV 2.0T FSI Motor.*


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_This is involving *ONLY* the *MKV 2.0T FSI Motor.*


*I KNOW*, but those who are stuck with a *MKV 2.0 FSI N/A Motor* could encounter the *SAME* exact problems.
Has it been documented that the N/A engines are not effected by fuel pump lobe and follower issues?
If so, please direct me to this so I can catch up on some reading. Thank you.


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_

*I KNOW*, but those who are stuck with a *MKV 2.0 FSI N/A Motor* could encounter the *SAME* exact problems.
Has it been documented that the N/A engines are not effected by fuel pump lobe and follower issues?
If so, please direct me to this so I can catch up on some reading. Thank you.



The cam follower issue is with the MKV 2.0T motor, not the 2.0.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_
good info, but doesn't really tell me much. what about synthetic bearing grease, same deal?

could anybody tell me if this will work or not? the follower comes in either tomorrow or Wednesday and i wanna make sure i have everything i neec for this install before i start tearing into this thing


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

okay, so i finally changed my cam follower yesterday. was much easier than i thought it would be and went very well. as for my previous question, yes, the bearing grease does work because it has Moly particulates in and is tacky, so it worked out pretty well. now for the pics. i was very suprised to see how good of condition mine was in considering i am over 45K and am making somewhere around 250WHP. i didn't take any pics of the pump or the cam, but the cam super smooth, looked untouched, and the pump was still flat and working well. the wear around the sides of the follower were consistant, so it was going in and out very straight. thanks again to JC for giving me what info i needed for this job to be done right.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

Just found this on KMD site a new cam follower they made , anyone here test it for them ?? and who is going to be the first to try it out ??LOL







Bob.G
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1426


----------



## terje_77 (Dec 19, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_Just found this on KMD site a new cam follower they made , anyone here test it for them ?? and who is going to be the first to try it out ??LOL







Bob.G
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1426

Also interested to know what people think about this aftermarket cam follower.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_Just found this on KMD site a new cam follower they made , anyone here test it for them ?? and who is going to be the first to try it out ??LOL







Bob.G
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1426

Sure, I'll get right on that one! LOL


----------



## MetalSiren (Nov 4, 2008)

KMD cam follower sure looks tough


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (MetalSiren)*

So they decided to eliminate the DLC wear resistant coating and then they used the same material as the stock follower








How about a harder more wear resistant material? 
What about case hardening, or nitriding? Or a different coating? Chrome nitride perhaps. 
The OEM material is not capable of supporting the pumping loads. The coating is there to prevent wear of the follower. After the coating comes off the wear rate is very high. Starting without the coating just starts out at a higher wear rate. You will have to change these out just like the stock ones.
They even say the wear rate is high. 0.028" wear in 20K miles - this is not acceptable wear rate. Sounds like every 30K you have to change it. And the cam will wear some as well. 




_Modified by enginerd at 7:47 AM 11-17-2008_


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## stefanosTFSI (Dec 30, 2006)

I am afraid that the kmd cam follower, lacking the black coating, will wear the cam which is unacceptable, I prefer to use oem cam followers every 4K miles and have my cam in perfect condition.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (stefanosTFSI)*

^^^i was thinking the same thing. there is really no "harder" material they can use, because the wear on the follower affects the wear on the cam. any harder of a material on the follower would give you premature wear on the cam. i would much rather have to change a follower every so often than to have to change a cam, ever. not worth the money for the KMD, might as well just start stocking up on the OEM VW one.


----------



## Juggernaut201 (Dec 13, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

anyone try this cam follower from kmd or any one with some insight on it?


----------



## Oscar33 (Apr 15, 2006)

*Re: (Juggernaut201)*

at 53000km's this is the first time i checked the follower, the pump, or the cam. 
The pump:








The Cam:








The Follower:








pump is going to be replaced with apr HPFP very soon hopefully when the new BT stuff arrives


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (Oscar33)*

all those parts look damaged


----------



## Oscar33 (Apr 15, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_all those parts look damaged









the cam doesnt look to bad actually or am i wrong?


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (Oscar33)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Oscar33* »_
the cam doesnt look to bad actually or am i wrong?

My cam had 11000 miles on it, it looked brand new (no scratches) it was junk the dealership replaced it.


----------



## wannagofast (May 25, 2008)

*Re: (Oscar33)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Oscar33* »_
the cam doesnt look to bad actually or am i wrong?

In that picture it sure looks like it has some nice scares in it. Not good. Silky smooth, no rough stuff.


----------



## wannagofast (May 25, 2008)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_all those parts look damaged









Yup. Oscar if those a feelable scares on the cam and it shows wear(not optical illution), then just putting a new follower and pump in, the cam will chew that follwer very quickly. That if you don't have fuel cuts first.


_Modified by wannagofast at 12:13 PM 11-29-2008_


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## munchyman (May 30, 2007)

*Re: pics*

Inspected mine for the first time today. Approx 13500 kms (8000 mi).
APR stage I after the first service. APR Stage II at 12500 kms.
Sorry for poor quality pics. Only had the cellphone camera on hand:





Should I order a new one?
As an aside - I let all the pressure out of the valve prior to undoing the metal line but still got quite a bit of fuel in the engine bay...


----------



## RTYL (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside ([email protected])*

Hi, thanks for the great post!
I am about to check / replace my Cam Follower. Before I take everything apart, may I know if there is a special procedure or steps that I need to follow when I reassemble everything? Is it necessary to bleed the fuel system to remove any trapped air after the fuel pump is reinstalled?
Many Thanks!
Ryan


----------



## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (wannagofast)*

what u say about mine?


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## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (RTYL)*

Ryan on the first couple pages of this thread JC did a step by step if not check the DIY page and I used the APR web site you can find instructions in the help section http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## RTYL (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (fahrenheit 525)*

Thanks for the reply.
I have another question that didn't seem answered/discussed on the thread - What is the purpose of removing the bleed valve? There're many caution notes on taking care not the strip the 13mm brass nut. However, it would seem that after the pressure is released, that there is no need to remove the bleed valve completely? Can't the fuel pump be removed from its mounting with the bleed valve still in place?
Thanks!


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (RTYL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RTYL* »_Hi, thanks for the great post!
I am about to check / replace my Cam Follower. Before I take everything apart, may I know if there is a special procedure or steps that I need to follow when I reassemble everything? Is it necessary to bleed the fuel system to remove any trapped air after the fuel pump is reinstalled?
Many Thanks!
Ryan

as stated above, the instructions, on the first page say it all. it is actually a very straight forward job, but to break it down pretty quickly:
take of the bleed valve cap and bleed the pump
remove the bleeder valve
remove the metal line(s) off of the bottom of the pump
remove all 3 screws holding the pump in place
pull out pump
reach in with your finger and pull out the follower
examine the follower, cam, and pump for damage
replace what is damaged
install the new follower
reinstall the pump with all 3 screws
reinstall the metal fuel line(s)
reinstall the bleeder valve with cap
on first start up, turn the key to the "on" position and let the pump prime for a few seconds, then start the car. may be slightly hesitant at first, but should start. keep it running for a little while as you check for leaks. now drive it like you stole it and enjoy


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (RTYL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RTYL* »_Thanks for the reply.
I have another question that didn't seem answered/discussed on the thread - What is the purpose of removing the bleed valve? There're many caution notes on taking care not the strip the 13mm brass nut. However, it would seem that after the pressure is released, that there is no need to remove the bleed valve completely? Can't the fuel pump be removed from its mounting with the bleed valve still in place?
Thanks!

if i remember right, the bleed valve is kind of in the way of getting to the metal lines, and one of the 3 screws holding in the pump. i guess you can try it without removing it, but for such a small piece, it makes a big difference when you are trying to get to stuff in a pretty small area. doesn't take but a few seconds to remove the valve, just be careful, take your time, and follow the steps http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

I've already stripped the brass nut, and i can tell you it aint pretty..
Had to cut it off and buy a whole new pump...


----------



## RTYL (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (zoidmk5)*

Thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated. I did note that there was no mention of any special bleeding procedure after reinstallation, and was just clarifying that there indeed isn't one.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (RTYL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RTYL* »_Thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated. I did note that there was no mention of any special bleeding procedure after reinstallation, and was just clarifying that there indeed isn't one. 









correct. just twist the valve with a flat head screwdriver to relieve the pressure, then remove the valve, then close the valve when you reinstall, make sure everything is tight, let the pump prime for a few seconds, and start her up. seems hard and looks to be major work, but there is really nothing easier, JUST TAKE YOUR TIME http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Welllam (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (zoidmk5)*

Among all, who have experienced fuel cut? 
If this cam follower wearing does not contribute to fuel cut, it will not bother me so much.


----------



## adeere (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (Welllam)*

It will bother you when it wears thru and ruins your cam and pump.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (adeere)*

x2 times a billion. replacing the follower is an absolute must


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## lnghrngti (Sep 8, 2007)

is it necessary to use moly lube when putting a new follower in?


----------



## schmove (Nov 29, 1999)

2007 Passat - 19,000 miles. apr stage 1...change out follower?


----------



## becones (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: (schmove)*

Okay well I changed the follower but I had a real freaking hard time. First off the instructions said to take the 17mm nut off first but leave the plastic line. My pump came with 2 metal lines. The line with the 12point was a pain in the you know what to get back in. In addition, when taking off the pump I broke my cam follower but luckily nothing went in. I broke a couple of clips here and there and now I hear a slight noise from my pcv valve. How do I know if I installed the follower correctly? I placed the cam follower with the metal slit opening up right in the middle then installed the pump back in place is this correct?
thanks


_Modified by becones at 11:40 PM 12-28-2008_


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (becones)*

There is a better DIY for the 06 MY with metal lines... http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_06 GTI 32k miles
- 15k stock
- 5k Revo Stage I
- 12k APR Stage I
Mobil 1 0W40 5k-10k, 10k-15k
Castrol 0w-30 every 3k after that.
Autocrossed regularly after 15k
"A" Cam








Minimal wear, if any








Cam bucket appears to have two "layers" of coating worn off. I forgot to take a picture of the inside of the follower but it looks the same as "Twinkers" on the previous page.








Pump looks normal.








I see no cause for alarm on my part, yet. I have more pictures of the cam lobe wear if anyone needs a (potentially) better view. I really don't see it as bad. Enjoy?


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_Now at 36,000 miles:

































Now at 40,000 miles:


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## munchyman (May 30, 2007)

*Re:*

Is the moly lube a must (or optional) when installing a new follower?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Seems like some of the A cams are holding up just fine (mine included)..


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Re: (munchyman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *munchyman* »_Is the moly lube a must (or optional) when installing a new follower?

The first two times I checked the high pressure fuel system I just lubricated everything quite liberally to help with startup. I even busted out my trusty turkey baster (garage edition. the wife insisted) to make sure the cam was covered well.
This last time I used a fairly thick moly grease during re-assembly.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

My car is apart and I need to get a 8mm 12 point triple square bit (banjo fitting). Do you know where I could buy one? Already checked autozone and Home Depot.


----------



## becones (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: (dmorrow)*

autozone should have it ..it comes in a pack of 4 if not try a snap on truck or order it..


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (becones)*

Found the part at a local parts store. After 71K miles my cam follower looked like new. While it had a silver top on it you could still see the metal grain across the top of it.


----------



## MP413Racer (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: (dmorrow)*

not much to report here, but i checked on my 06 gti w/ 16k miles and everything seemed fine other than the coating being worn off...i had already bought the follower so i replaced it anyway just in case...the cam and pump seemed perfectly fine...some pics:
























the pics make it look bad, but there is no discernible damage when viewing the follower up close or running your fingers over it.


----------



## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

Did this "maintainence" on my wife's 2007 GTI this past weekend. Her car has about 32, 500 miles on it and is 100% stock.
Thanks to [email protected] and [email protected] for the assiatance via IM before I ventured on this job.
Here are all the pics
Cam Follower Swap
Specifics of the follower that came out.


----------



## coolstrybrah (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: (pal)*

Here is my old(left) vs. new cam follower(right)...
































The old follower has 37k miles on it. About 22k miles on Revo stage 2.
A big thanks to [email protected] for the help installing the new cam follower along with my APR HPFP. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Micky32 (Sep 11, 2005)

Thought i'd post my cam follower. Car built March 2008 and has a total of 25,000 miles. Autotech pump has been in approx 8-10k. Is everyone sure that when the black wears off it's bad? Maybe that's normal? Even though the black inplaces has worn off the follower is ver smooth.


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (Micky32)*

Replace it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*

Just a quick update, 35000 km with my modified Autotech pump on my "A" cam.
This follower has 10000 km on it before i switched it (don't ask why, i had the replacement
in hand so i said WTH..)
Follower outside (surface is black, put it next to a white paper to get the contrast for the pic)
















Follower inside....speechless....
















And...my "A" cam...mmmm...









Looking good ??


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I can't read through 25 pages. 
If I am installing a new cam follower do I have to do anything special to it before installation. Lube it with anything other than oil?
Thanks


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I can't read through 25 pages. 
If I am installing a new cam follower do I have to do anything special to it before installation. Lube it with anything other than oil?
Thanks

Good coat of oil is a good start. Moly based assembly lube is better.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

Use assembly lube or similar
Read this to find out why:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBri...n.pdf


----------



## Aguilar (Jan 28, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Just hit 15,000. I'll be checking every oil change (~5k) from now on. Here's how it looks:
































I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but a T30 torx fits for the 3 screws holding the pump in place, and should be used instead of the smaller T27. Also, the side connector does not have to be disconnected, since it can be a hassle to do so with cold fingers.


----------



## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

Alright guys after 50k miles and no cam follower inspection, instead of just taking apart things to inspect just going to put a new cam follower in. I will post pics towards the end of this week.


----------



## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: (D-TechniK)*

What happend with the S3 camshaft dyno logs?
Where is the final solution wheather to buy or not. 
Benefit change or dangerous for long term use ?
regards,
hendrik


----------



## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*




oem hpfp @ 22000 miles
stage 1 since 6200
stage 2 since 16755


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

time for a new one


----------



## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

I always take one or two fingers lube it up real nice before I stuff it in there.


----------



## sinned (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: (fahrenheit 525)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fahrenheit 525* »_ I always take one or two fingers lube it up real nice before I stuff it in there.

excuse me sir, we are talking about cam followers here or are we not?


----------



## walked (Feb 23, 2009)

*Top is Silver*

Looking for a little guidance. I just managed to get my dealership to pull the cam follower to inspect it; got them to show me too.
Sadly, I did not grab a picture, but:
The top was silver, but smooth (the black layer was entirely worn away across the entire top of the cam follower). He stood behind his stance that the black coating was not a problem being gone, but only once the cam follower becomes CONCAVE is there an issue. I tried and tried to convince him the black layer being gone was a problem, but no luck.
The at least temporary solution we reached was they will check the cam follower for free with every oil change while there. Which is great, but still less than idea.
So here's my dilemma:
I've got another 25k miles warranty, and like 4 years left. This should be sufficient to handle the cam follower issue, and doubly so as I've got it dealership documented. However I intend to chip the car shortly. Is that going to result in a cam follower warranty claim denial?
Personally, I'd just change the cam follower, but as I've got the dealership checking and documenting it, I'm hesitant to do so, as that firmly puts the whole issue "in my own hands" so to speak.
1) Any suggestions for convincing them the entire black layer being worn IS a problem? The TSB does say concave specifically, which kinda sucks.
2) Is the chip going to cause me to be denied if I let it ride and turn out to indeed have issues?
3) Any further tips? 

edit: It was very very similar in appearance to this cam follower:











_Modified by walked at 6:39 AM 2-25-2009_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Top is Silver (walked)*

So you have 2 options right? 
1) Trust your volkswagen dealer 
2) *Take responsibility yourself* and check/replace your follower as you see fit, AND use an oil that has A) high ZDDP (which protects the cam and follower) and high HTHS (which reduces volatility so that your oil shears less and can deal with fuel dilution derived thinning/volatility) and cleans well such as uses bioesters or polyolesters and has high Ca or good additive mix.
Personally, the only time my car will see the dealer is if I have no other choice. It's better to educate yourself and take on the problem head on.


----------



## walked (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Top is Silver (saaber2)*

I tend to agree with your mentality (in fact, I ordered a replacement cam follower over a week ago).
It's just nice to cover that safety net of warranty as well as I can. But I'm leaning in agreement that the dealership is not going to take on work that it doesnt want to.
I've put emails (with explanations) into two other dealers to see if they will be able to help. If the 3 local dealerships all leave me hanging; I'm just going to take it into my own hands and check it regularly!


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: Top is Silver (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
2) *Take responsibility yourself* and check/replace your follower as you see fit, AND use an oil that has A) high ZDDP (which protects the cam and follower) and high HTHS (which reduces volatility so that your oil shears less and can deal with fuel dilution derived thinning/volatility) and cleans well such as uses bioesters or polyolesters and has high Ca or good additive mix.


What oil would you recommend?


----------



## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Use assembly lube or similar
Read this to find out why:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBri...n.pdf 

Can anyone recommend a good, commonly available assembly lube please?


----------



## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: (dmorrow)*

guys bad news.. My cam follower was destroyed with a hole through it. I was expecting to find it worn but with a hole. (holy crap!) I gave my tech the Audi TSB and upon taking apart things and inspecting further he found the piece of the cam follower and it damaged the chain tensioner guide. Damage could have been worse but now repair bills have me sweating bricks. Also had hpfp rebuilt.

Pics:






_Modified by D-TechniK at 6:01 PM 2/25/2009_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (D-TechniK)*

D-Tech, That sucks! Sorry to hear that man. How many miles does your car have and what kind of oil have you been using?


_Modified by saaber2 at 3:41 PM 2-25-2009_


----------



## agpatel21 (Jun 21, 2006)

D-tech, ekk...hurts me just to look at those pics of the follower and pump. What problems if any were you having before you decided to take a look at it. 
You also have a 2-piece cam, seems to be with the harder follower you get more damage as it kills the follower and not so much the cam were as with the Rev A the cam also gets worn.


----------



## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

Car currently has 50k. Guys don't go past 20k to inspect it.
First couple of changes done with Mobil 1. Last couple of Oil changes done with Total/Elf. (Always synthetic)
Motul is top notch but I trust Mobil & Elf. (which are good as well and also meet VW 502.00)

Lets just say this topic made me look at it and the FSI injectors alittle louder than usual. (ever had spare change in your pocket ringing?)










_Modified by D-TechniK at 9:33 PM 2/25/2009_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (A3_yuppie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *A3_yuppie* »_
Can anyone recommend a good, commonly available assembly lube please?

Redline has one 
http://www.redlineoil.com/prod...yID=7
Probably a few diff. brands avail. in local auto parts/speed shop most of which will probably be moly lubes I would guess. 
That zdplus or whatever it is called in the article I posted above also sounds like they know what they are doing.


_Modified by saaber2 at 6:43 PM 2-25-2009_


----------



## Aguilar (Jan 28, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Advance Auto Parts carries Permatex Ultra Slick (Engine Assembly Lube).


----------



## walked (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Aguilar)*

Mine does not have Permatex. Found a local shop that has Moly Graphite Grease - is this acceptable, or need I keep looking? (still looking regardless right now until I get the OK, if it is)

edit: The local carquest DOES have Moly Grease. It's Carquest brand though; guy said its manufactured by Valvoline. Thoughts on this?
Really want to get the cam follower replaced ASAP as mine's pretty worn.


_Modified by walked at 10:33 AM 2-26-2009_


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (walked)*

I used a dab of _LUCAS Oil _on mine prior to reassembly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Rogerthat (Oct 23, 2005)

*Re: (D-TechniK)*

Holy Crap! that sucks D-Tech







mods? 
Here was mine. It's good to have it documented in this thread.

_Quote, originally posted by *Rogerthat* »_Well I finally got my Cam Follower in the mail and installed it.
2006 A3:
-66,000 miles exactly








-Dealer Oil service within warranty, which I always topped off with Mobile 1 0w 40 when I would check every 1k because of the quart of oil disappearing act. I have continued to use Mobile 1 since the warranty has expired for 5k intervals. 

-No Engine Modifications
-Don,t drive the car hard and occasionally have spirited runs where I do not hit red line.


----------



## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: (Rogerthat)*

Stock except for APR 93 software and stock mode..
I run the stock settings at all times and only switch to APR 93 for those few spirited runs on the highway with no traffic on weekends. (Feel dumb running the software during the weekdays when half the time I am stuck in traffic) 
I also do not redline the car. 
Only future mods exhaust, maybe a FMIC (Heat in Miami is harsh)
Car in question:


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (D-TechniK)*

judging by your pics... you have to replace hpfp & follower


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (rippie74)*

...And intake camshaft.


----------



## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: (becones)*

I got 5 pages into this and could not find the anwesr to my question...
Can you just replace the cam with the revised one to get away from this issue?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*

No, failures on B cam also. See previous page.


----------



## Gtiupb2002 (Jun 4, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Ok so I went and looked at my car I was gonna check my cam follower here soon and I was looking to see if anything else on my car was needing changed. Anyways my fp looks different then the one pic in this diy it does not have the bleeder valve on it so how to I go about changing my cf, is that gonna create a problem. My car is a 2006 A3 if that makes a dif
Thanks in advance


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XM_Rocks* »_I got 5 pages into this and could not find the anwesr to my question...
Can you just replace the cam with the revised one to get away from this issue?

You have 20 more pages to go.
Same failure occurs with the 'B' cam. It may take a little longer, but it happens. There is no cure.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (Gtiupb2002)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gtiupb2002* »_Ok so I went and looked at my car I was gonna check my cam follower here soon and I was looking to see if anything else on my car was needing changed. Anyways my fp looks different then the one pic in this diy it does not have the bleeder valve on it so how to I go about changing my cf, is that gonna create a problem. My car is a 2006 A3 if that makes a dif
Thanks in advance

Pull the fuse for the electric fuel pump, crank the car and idle it until it dies of fuel starvation. That'll get rid of the pressure in the line so you can remove the lines safely.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (OOOO-A3)*

Very good DIY can be found here: http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6


----------



## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

so i am a noob about this and i just wanted to get everyone's opinion on my situation. about 3 months ago i had two CELS one of them was related to a worn cam follower, now since it was under warranty they replaced everything on there cost, looking at the service sheet, it appears they replaced the camshaft the cam follower and the fuel pump, (also how do you know which revision the part is? on the sheet my cam follower is A06D - 109 - 309 - C) How long should i expect these new parts to last? i drive the car pretty hard not everyday but i do sometimes reline the car at the lights kinda thing. I drive allot of highway and a bit of city. Currently the car is stock but i will be getting it chipped in the future. Thanks everyone! sorry for being a noob about it, this thread has been a real "eye" opener and i thank everyone for putting time into understanding the problem!


----------



## cawadany (Mar 2, 2009)

My car is a Golf V GTI DSG '06, completely stock.
This problem of the cam follower, may also affect my car? You advise me to check it?
Or the problem regards only the modified car, with an aftermarket high pressure fuel pump?
Best regards, Daniele.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (cawadany)*

Problem has been found with all cars, including 100% stock (that doesn't mean you are guranteed to have the problem, just saying it has been found in both modified and stock cars). Modifications such as aftermarket HPFP increases the "risk factors" for a problem but it has been a problem in stock cars also.
One good thing is you are in Italy which potentially means less fuel dilution in the oil vs. American cars that use a different fuel setting due to increased Sulphur in our gas/emissions requirements. Many people believe this is the root cause of fuel dilution issues in North American direct injection cars (including non-VAG cars). Fuel dilution degrades the oil much faster and reduces its ability to protect the cam/follower. I have been compiling used oil anlayses for 2.0 FSI cars and so far lowered flashpoint of the oil is very pervasive in North American cars.
The safest thing is to check because it is pretty easy to do. If the cam follower goes out it can cause expensive damage.


_Modified by saaber2 at 7:46 AM 3-2-2009_


----------



## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

so i am a noob about this and i just wanted to get everyone's opinion on my situation. about 3 months ago i had two CELS one of them was related to a worn cam follower, now since it was under warranty they replaced everything on there cost, looking at the service sheet, it appears they replaced the camshaft the cam follower and the fuel pump, (also how do you know which revision the part is? on the sheet my cam follower is A06D - 109 - 309 - C) How long should i expect these new parts to last? i drive the car pretty hard not everyday but i do sometimes reline the car at the lights kinda thing. I drive allot of highway and a bit of city. Currently the car is stock but i will be getting it chipped in the future. Thanks everyone! sorry for being a noob about it, this thread has been a real "eye" opener and i thank everyone for putting time into understanding the problem!


----------



## b6turbopassat (Aug 14, 2008)

My follower after 63k


----------



## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: (b6turbopassat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *b6turbopassat* »_My follower after 63k



Lucky!
Well my car is fine now after a couple of repairs.. Motor pics for kicks.


Also rebuilt HPFP to Auto tech. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Novitech Tuning


----------



## b6turbopassat (Aug 14, 2008)

*Re: (D-TechniK)*

it fixed my boost issues, what happened to your motor??


----------



## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: (b6turbopassat)*

My cam follower was in pieces.. Caused quite some damage and grew what started off as a simple cam follower replacement into x10 for repairs. 
Note* I have 50k miles

Check previous page for more pics..


----------



## b6turbopassat (Aug 14, 2008)

*Re: (D-TechniK)*

what was the cause of the premature cam follower failure?


----------



## cawadany (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Ok thanks. I check it.


----------



## M0riarty (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (cawadany)*

Well I finally went ahead and replaced my cam follower. Originally intended on just checking it but went ahead and had the replacement ready based on the results of this thread... glad I did...
























Car has 45K on original follower, 40K of that chipped with GIAC. As worn as the coating on the follower looks, the surface of it was perfectly smooth and not concave in appearance.
In addition, as you can see the cam lobe does not have any scratches due to wear. This is an "A" cam BTW, I have verified it personally. Car build date was 12/05.


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (M0riarty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M0riarty* »_Well I finally went ahead and replaced my cam follower. Originally intended on just checking it but went ahead and had the replacement ready based on the results of this thread... glad I did...
Car has 45K on original follower, 40K of that chipped with GIAC. As worn as the coating on the follower looks, the surface of it was perfectly smooth and not concave in appearance.
In addition, as you can see the cam lobe does not have any scratches due to wear. This is an "A" cam BTW, I have verified it personally. Car build date was 12/05.

same thing here, changed mine at like 43K, and it has been chipped since i believe 5K, all of the black was off of mine, but there was still alot of material left before it would have worn a hole through it or anything. not sure if i have the A or the B, i am aassuming B, but never got the chance to check


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

Ok, so I am halfway through this and I find out that the bottom part of my fuel pump has a metal and not rubber line attached to it. The DIY said leave the rubber line attached but I am not sure how I can do that with it being metal. 
Anyone does this on a car with a metal line? How did you get it off?


_Modified by aeproberts21 at 2:40 PM 3-22-2009_


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_Ok, so I am halfway through this and I find out that the bottom part of my fuel pump has a metal and not rubber line attached to it. The DIY said leave the rubber line attached but I am not sure how I can do that with it being metal. 
Anyone does this on a car with a metal line? How did you get it off?

_Modified by aeproberts21 at 2:40 PM 3-22-2009_

that metal line is a banjo fitting. you will need to come from underneith with a torx i believe to take that off. in 07 they switched over to the rubber line which is much easier to work with. i am pretty sure there is a DIY on here somewhere for the banjo fitting in particular


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

DIY on my site: http://www.golfmkv.net
And it is NOT a torx... it is TRIPLE SQUARE...


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

how much would this cost at a shop to have the cam replaced?


----------



## DROID_behavior (Feb 17, 2008)

*FV-QR*

OEM cam follower w/ 48,306 miles. (been tuned since 37,600)


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_how much would this cost at a shop to have the cam replaced?

The parts cost alone to replace the CAM is around 600+... labor is pretty intensive due to the sealant they use on the cam frame... I would expect total cost to be easily 1000+
If you mean just the CAM FOLLOWER, it is only an hour labor at max and the part is about 60... so 150-200 to have the follower replaced at a shop.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

yes I meant just the follower.


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_DIY on my site: http://www.golfmkv.net
And it is NOT a torx... it is TRIPLE SQUARE...

i knew it was either a torx or a triple square but wasn't sure. mine is a rubber hose, so i didn't have to worry about that on mine


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

Anyone have a good place to buy the 8M triple square?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

metalnerd


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

Just so I do not do something stupid. 
8mm 12 point driver is the same thing as 8M triplesquare right?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

Should be the same. Triple Square = 3 x 4 = 12


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


----------



## emo_dubber (May 11, 2007)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

Check this out... KMD upgraded cam follower...

http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1426 
is it worth it?


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (emo_dubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *emo_dubber* »_Check this out... KMD upgraded cam follower...

http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1426 
is it worth it?

somebody else brought this up several pages ago. interesting, but with a stronger and harder material than stock going agains't the cam, you have higher likelyhood of damaging the Cam and causing very heavy damage to the engine, or you can just buy the $50 OEM follower every 15-20K


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

So 1 year and 10,000 miles since my first cam follower checkup my follower has showed no further wear. It appears that, for whatever reason, the wear has stabilized (for now). I have been using Elf Excellium 5w40 at 5,000 intervals, and I drive the car pretty hard.
Follower @ 33,000:








Follower @ 43,000:


----------



## bblume (Aug 8, 2001)

*Re: (SuckSquishBangBlow)*

I'm planning on inspecting mine tomorrow. I'm almost certain my pump is the good ol' B version and I'm assuming I'm running the A cam b/c it's an '06 A4.
Nonetheless, I guess the question would be::: Will any upgraded HPFP accelerate the wear on the cam (regardless of what cam is in use and assuming I've gotten by this far{65k} running an A cam that's hopefully not from the bad batch), or should we be looking at things like these things will fail no matter what, so might as well go down swinging.
I'm interested in the next step towards StgII+ but it's a big and scary world of cam/pump failure. Perhaps it's just part of the game.


----------



## cawadany (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: (bblume)*

I have checked my cam follower. There is some photos.
Is it ok?








_Modified by cawadany at 10:00 AM 4-2-2009_


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (cawadany)*

It's on its way out, I'd replace it


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (cawadany)*

That follower is great, it is not even close to "on its way out" and I would certainly not waste the money replacing that right now.
I was all for education and checking followers when people were first having issues because people just simply didn't know they needed to. The followers people are posting and everyone's jumping and saying replace replace replace are more often then not perfectly fine to keep running. 
Being aware of a problem and handling the problem only works if people don't overreact to every example posted. At this point there is no reason to check and post your follower just replace it and save yourself the time since no one is actually looking at the pictures.


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Chris, PM Sent.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (cawadany)*

That follower looks great to me. I wouldn't change it. The follower "wears-in" with the cam and they can sometimes go a long time matched together. Obviously the follower needs to be replaced if cracked, concave, or too much surface worn off but then that new follower has to "wear in" with the cam.
Change oil often, use a good oil with high ZDDP or other good antiwear and I think you are good to go.


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I would just change it out because I had the hpfp off & I'm lazy, lol

_Modified by rippie74 at 3:27 PM 4-2-2009_


_Modified by rippie74 at 3:28 PM 4-2-2009_


----------



## m5roller (May 30, 2007)

*Re: (rippie74)*

Cawadany,
The follower looks fine.


_Modified by m5roller at 12:21 PM 4-3-2009_


----------



## flipkid (Nov 1, 2006)

Where is the best place online to purchase the Cam Follower @ the lowest price? Is 06D 109 309C the latest part #? 
THanks


----------



## bblume (Aug 8, 2001)

*Re: (flipkid)*

^^^^x2


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (bblume)*

Today was nice out so I decided to change my follower since I had it and some other parts sitting here that needed to go in. Once I got it out, I came to a couple of conclusions.........
I posted these pics when I first checked it @ 30k miles, It looked half decent so I threw it back in 

_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
Cam Lobe








Follower cam surface










It looked half decent so I threw it back in 
Now, the same follower @ 46k miles (today)
























I was expecting to see the follower look worse than it did before, but it looked better, it was more flat/smoother,yet it was still plenty thick. The cam was also smoother. This is an" A" cam. I replaced the follower anyway, but I was tempted to stick the old one back in.
This was pretty much the same thing SuckSquishBangBlow saw on his B cam, but it was on his second follower the wear pattern improved

_Quote, originally posted by *SuckSquishBangBlow* »_So 1 year and 10,000 miles since my first cam follower checkup my follower has showed no further wear. It appears that, for whatever reason, the wear has stabilized (for now). I have been using Elf Excellium 5w40 at 5,000 intervals, and I drive the car pretty hard.
Follower @ 33,000:








Follower @ 43,000:









My conclusion is that the black "DLC" coating is just a break-in coating, nothing more. It's there to make the cam and follower wear in together, once it's gone, it's ok as long as the cam and follower have broken in at the same rate. Looking through this thread, I see alot of pictures with some of the DLC worn off and the replies are "oh that follower is wasted", because of that. I don't think that's the case at all, I haven't seen one follower that did have much DLC left on it. The condition of the actual metal under the DLC is the only thing that should be of concern IMO.
The problem with the B cam is that the cam lobes are too hard, not allowing the cam lobes to fully wear in with the original follower before the DLC is gone. I'm sure that most B cam owners will notice the same thing SuckSquishBangBlow did as long as they replaced their original follower before it totally destroyed the cam lobes, their second follower will wear much more evenly.
As for the "A" cam, I think it's hit or miss. I'm sure it's been discussed in this thread already, but the issue seems to have been that VW (or whoever supplied the cam) could not get consistant heat treating on the lobes of the cam as the had to treat the whole mass of the rear of the cam as well. Under good circumstances the "A" setup wears opposite of the "B". While the B cam will have almost no wear, the original follower will be all beat up. On my car the A cam had more wear marks (at first) but the follower was in better shape .
FWIW, My advice would be to change the follower at 25k, regardless of cam version. This seems to be a safe mileage either way and it gives enough time to wear the DLC off the first follower and then hit it with a second coating just in time to finish the wear-in process. I think the coating on the second follower will wear off just as fast, but it will wear more evenly all the way around, not just in one small spot and work it's way out. Obviously this has nothing to do with the upgraded pump issues so YMMV. And if your original follower couldn't make it 25k miles on the stock setup, then something was wrong anyway and there's plenty of warranty left to handle that.



_Modified by blackvento36 at 12:15 AM 4-6-2009_


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Just to be clear, those two pictures are of the same follower, I have never replaced it. Also important to note is that the 33k mile pic showed oil on the follower while the 43k mile pic was wiped clean, in actuality the follower looked identical at 33k miles and 43k miles.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (SuckSquishBangBlow)*

If that's the same follower, it looks pretty much like the same thing on mine. I don't understand how you say it looks identical though. The two pictures you posted look way different, and it's not just a little oil left on it either.


----------



## munchyman (May 30, 2007)

I don't have any moly grease. Can I just dunk the whole thing in engine oil prior to install?


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (munchyman)*

Go to ANY auto parts store and they will have some. 
23K


----------



## Sympley (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: (ShutItDown)*

My car was diagnosed today with cam follower failure, supposedly the fuel pump chew through the follower and damaged the cam. 
Can someone tell me how difficult or involved replacement is, VW will be replacing it under warranty but I want to check their work after they are done. From my previous experience with this dealer they are not that good at all and I want to do some checks before I pick up the car. Let me know what I should be looking for after the replacement.


----------



## velocidub (Oct 27, 2002)

*Re: (Sympley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sympley* »_My car was diagnosed today with cam follower failure, supposedly the fuel pump chew through the follower and damaged the cam. 



How many miles on the engine? Sorry to hear another 2.0T chews itself apart


----------



## Sympley (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: (velocidub)*

I only had 44,000Km (approx. 27,000miles) before it craped out. All oil changes done on time, last oil change done way before it's scheduled time because car burn all of the oil that it had, my dipstick was dry.
They told me it's OK to drive like that unitl they get the replacement cam in, is is really OK to drive? I told them to keep the car until they get the part. 
Also how big of a job is it? Similar to A/C comressor or easier? They said it will be done today but I highly doubt it, A/C compressor took them 3 days both times it blew.


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## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: (Sympley)*

wow only 27K miles?







sorry to hear that man... Honestly I would not drive like that. you do not want metal flakes getting all over your engine.


----------



## Sympley (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: (b0mb3r)*

S**t, I been driving line that for the past 4 months. That's when it all started. I told them to check the cam lobe, but they gave me new gas cap seal instead, then over a 3 month period they changed the gas cap 3 times. Unitl yestearday when the code showd some big pressure drops etc. SO now they are saying it's the cam lobe. I am kind of pissed. I'm at the verge od stopping the payments on the car and have them take it back.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Sympley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sympley* »_S**t, I been driving line that for the past 4 months. That's when it all started. I told them to check the cam lobe, but they gave me new gas cap seal instead, then over a 3 month period they changed the gas cap 3 times. Unitl yestearday when the code showd some big pressure drops etc. SO now they are saying it's the cam lobe. I am kind of pissed. I'm at the verge od stopping the payments on the car and have them take it back. 

Codes that would point to replacing a gas cap and replacing a cam would be 100% unrelated. There is nothing in the guided fault finding that the tech would have to follow to get paid that would overlap between the two leading to a diagnosis of a gas cap if the cam or pump was faulty. Sounds like two entirely different problems.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Sympley)*

Sounds like when it ran low/out? of oil that was what did it. Definitely don't drive with broken follower unless you want your cam and who knows what else to be all chewed up.


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Just checked mine (finally). Car is at 42k miles, with about 25k+ with APR programming and quite a bit of hard driving (Auto-x). I will post pictures, but the follower is in pretty good condition, and much better than I was expecting. The black coating is mostly gone, but it is smooth to the touch and does not seem to be indented at all. The Cam also looks fine. I have the annoying banjo bolt, so I replaced the follower anyway. 
The discrepancy in wear between cars is interesting to me. I have an early 2006 with "A" cam and metal lines. VW changed the design a little bit so I figured if anything mine would be worse. Guess I was lucky. I do change my oil every 5k religiously, keep it toped up and only use VW oil. Maybe that is a major factor.


----------



## g60_corrado_91 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_Just checked mine (finally). Car is at 42k miles, with about 25k+ with APR programming and quite a bit of hard driving (Auto-x). I will post pictures, but the follower is in pretty good condition, and much better than I was expecting. The black coating is mostly gone, but it is smooth to the touch and does not seem to be indented at all. The Cam also looks fine. I have the annoying banjo bolt, so I replaced the follower anyway. 
The discrepancy in wear between cars is interesting to me. I have an early 2006 with "A" cam and metal lines. VW changed the design a little bit so I figured if anything mine would be worse. Guess I was lucky. I do change my oil every 5k religiously, keep it toped up and only use VW oil. Maybe that is a major factor. 

Sounds similar to me. I had my APR Stg 2 for about 16 or 17k and took it in to the dealer and they put a new HPFP and follower on it, as well as the low fuel pressure sensor. Not sure why the HPFP was replaced, but it seems all well still ~6-7k later.



_Modified by g60_corrado_91 at 4:22 PM 4-15-2009_


----------



## velocidub (Oct 27, 2002)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_ I do change my oil every 5k religiously, keep it toped up and only use VW oil. Maybe that is a major factor. 

Makes a lot of sense to me. I hope you're right.
I'm the same way with the OCI and keeping engine topped off.
One of the previous posters mentioned his engine burned oil, ran the engine extremely low on oil , and then he had cam/follower issues. Sounds related to me


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Codes that would point to replacing a gas cap and replacing a cam would be 100% unrelated. There is nothing in the guided fault finding that the tech would have to follow to get paid that would overlap between the two leading to a diagnosis of a gas cap if the cam or pump was faulty. Sounds like two entirely different problems. 
Yeah, a gas cap seal shows up as "Large EVAP system leak", plus the gas cap light comes on. I was getting these codes the other day when the o-ring under the cap folded over and I didn't realize it.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_ I do change my oil every 5k religiously, keep it toped up and only use VW oil. Maybe that is a major factor. 

VW oil at 5k does not appear to be good enough. At least not for these two guys:
"Yeah, same here. Oil changed every 5k at the dealer since the car was new. Oil has been OEM spec, I believe it's 5w40 Kendall. I'm going to go have a conversation with the dealer this week (VW/Audi of Chattanooga)."
"Same thing happened to me, oil change every 5k since new, Castrol Syntec 5w40 VW 502.00."
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4337403
Oils that have better anti wear levels such as high ZDDP, or resist fuel dilution better may help. I have not yet seen a magic oil that will run past 5k on these engines. Someone on BITOG recently proposed running a straight 30 or 40 weight plus anti wear additive. In terms of protecting the follower, that might work but it sure would be nice to find a multigrade that deals well with the fuel dilution and has very high anti wear additives. Someone should try Rotella synthetic in this engine. I would like to see a UOA from that.


_Modified by saaber2 at 11:56 AM 4-17-2009_


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
VW oil at 5k does not appear to be good enough. At least not for these two guys:
"Yeah, same here. Oil changed every 5k at the dealer since the car was new. Oil has been OEM spec, I believe it's 5w40 Kendall. I'm going to go have a conversation with the dealer this week (VW/Audi of Chattanooga)."
"Same thing happened to me, oil change every 5k since new, Castrol Syntec 5w40 VW 502.00."
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4337403
Oils that have better anti wear levels such as high ZDDP, or resist fuel dilution better may help. I have not yet seen a magic oil that will run past 5k on these engines. Someone on BITOG recently proposed running a straight 30 or 40 weight plus anti wear additive. In terms of protecting the follower, that might work but it sure would be nice to find a multigrade that deals well with the fuel dilution and has very high anti wear additives. Someone should try Rotella synthetic in this engine. I would like to see a UOA from that.

_Modified by saaber2 at 11:56 AM 4-17-2009_

I am not an expert when it comes to oil, but theoretically would having a catch can help slow down the dilution?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

Reducing PCV deposits may help some but it won't solve the problem. From vw patent found here (follow links) http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4311692
"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components.
the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. 
...Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. 
...These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle."
"A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "
I am eliminating the PCV on mine with an exhaust slashcut system (as soon as I get a back ordered part form Moroso). I have been monitoring build up of acids in the oil and I hope that by analyzing oil condition after eliminating the PCV we can see what affect that has on fuel dilution. I don't expect it to solve the problem but it might contribute some to better oil condition. the reason for the PCV delete is not for fuel dilution but to stop deposit formation. It may have some positive effect on fuel dilution also however.


_Modified by saaber2 at 3:16 PM 4-17-2009_


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## rukkus (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: (saaber2)*

checked mine this weekend. it's smooth to the touch and the cam looks great. I am at 23k miles right now and will probably not replace it until 30k. what do you guys think?


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (rukkus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rukkus* »_checked mine this weekend. it's smooth to the touch and the cam looks great. I am at 23k miles right now and will probably not replace it until 30k. what do you guys think?

can't really tell from the angle that you took the picture at. the flash takes over the entire top surface. from what i can see, the edges don't have the black coating on it anymore, which would probably say that the entire surface is probably worn, so it wouldn't hurt to change it now rather than wait


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rukkus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rukkus* »_checked mine this weekend. it's smooth to the touch and the cam looks great. I am at 23k miles right now and will probably not replace it until 30k. what do you guys think?

I agree that it is too hard to see anything with those photos. Maybe try a different angle or no flash or both.
What kind of oil have you been using and how often do you change it?


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## rukkus (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Sorry, I was using someone else's camera and I couldn't get it to focus on the actual follower, but rather everything around it. The entire top surface is black except for the middle area where you can see it the black coating worn away. The ring you can see around it is just the sky reflecting in the photo. It was a rough day as we did a lot to the car and had a few issues pop up haha. 
I use mobil 1 0w40 every 4-6kish.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (rukkus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rukkus* »_Sorry, I was using someone else's camera and I couldn't get it to focus on the actual follower, but rather everything around it. The entire top surface is black except for the middle area where you can see it the black coating worn away. The ring you can see around it is just the sky reflecting in the photo. It was a rough day as we did a lot to the car and had a few issues pop up haha. 
I use mobil 1 0w40 every 4-6kish. 

well if only the middle is starting to wear away right now it might be okay till 30K, but i would check it again in a few thousand miles to see the wear pattern then. if it doesn't more evenly wear along the entire surface, than change it, cause the center will eat through, destroying your follower, FP, and Cam


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## Sympley (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

Been driving for a week now with the replaced cam follower and cam shaft and I have to say damn, I can't believe they stretch this repair for 5 months. Car drives totally different. 
1. Boost does not drop. It would peak at 16 and it would drop to about 10. Recently it would drop to 0. Now it stays at 16. 
2. Car is not experiencing the dreaded fuel cut. When I would go WOT at 60mph the car would hesitate, and fuel cut would occur. Lots of people say it is because the OEM fuel pump from 2006 could not handle APR Stage 1, sorry not true. I can go WOT at any speed and no fuel cut. 
3. Don't see how it could be related but my oil pressure gauge is more consistent. It used to fluctuatete back and forth, now I get consistent readings.

Overall car drives like bat out of hell. I'm starting to like the car again....until next issue shows up. I'm still due for the PVC failure, and DV failure. Lesson learned...check the cam follower on regular basis.


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## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (SuckSquishBangBlow)*

Here is mine at 49,9xx miles a few months ago.
(I wanted to check just in case there is a serious problem before my warranty expired. But I decided to replace the follower to minimize messing with the fuel line with the banjo bolt.)
The black coating is gone, and there are some nicks and pits on the face of the follower. Does anyone know whether that means there is a problem with the cam itself?










_Modified by A3_yuppie at 11:00 AM 4-22-2009_


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (A3_yuppie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *A3_yuppie* »_The black coating is gone, and there are some nicks and pits on the face of the follower. Does anyone know whether that means there is a problem with the cam itself?


run your finger nail across the cam and if it catches on anything and there is a problem


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## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_run your finger nail across the cam and if it catches on anything and there is a problem

Thanks. I did not know to do that when I had everything opened up a few months ago, but I think I am OK because the cam lobe looked quite shiny and smooth, so only hairline scratches if any.


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## yohoitztho (Jul 27, 2008)

i laugh at everyone's measly wimpy worned followers. I applaud mine.

the amazingly strong cam!

and for kicks, the fuel pump...

and to think...ONLY 25K MILES!?!?! literally only 25170...


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: (yohoitztho)*

Wow. Did you have the car serviced at 5K, 10K and 20K?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (yohoitztho)*

Holy crap! We have a winner!!!!!!!
What oil did you use? Did your car ever run low on oil? How often oil changes?
Thanks for posting. Definitely the worst one to date!


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (saaber2)*

So cuiosity got the best of me and took my cam follower out this morning. I think it looks most excellent. The super macro shot enhances the wear and makes it look more worn than it appears to the naked eye (notice tiny lint particles that were not visible to naked eye). From the wear lines, it looks like the follower is rotating nicely. Cam and end of fuel pump look as new. Used factory fill through 5k, then redline 5w40 and changed at 9k. at 13k on car now. Although this follower has 3k less miles than the bad one posted on this page: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=4, the wear makes my suspicions of syntec 5w40 grow. But I need to research it more. 
I wish I had checked this at 5k to see how much wear was from that first factory fill. On the other hand, the car is now out of break in (based on the 39 UOA database anyway which shows wear metals dropping significantly after about 10k or so) so now is an ideal time to watch wear from here on out.



































_Modified by saaber2 at 10:26 AM 4-23-2009_


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## yohoitztho (Jul 27, 2008)

*Re: (saaber2)*

car was serviced at 5k, 10k. stopped after 10k since all they did was do an oil change and change the cabin filter...
oil changes regularly on an interval of about 7k miles. <---as a college student, had to do it when I had time.
so oil changed at 5k, 10k, 17k, 24k. oil has always been castrol synthetic 5w30 as that's what my dealer used and recommended. filter change each time...of course...
I tried to do preventative mods, as I changed the spark plugs to iridium ones at 15k, bsh pcv fix, etc... stock dv has been fine.
I put the autotech in at 20kish miles and inspected the follower before putting the autotech in and had it changed for a new one even though it was fine. had the revo flash. 
car is literally at 25170 and i open it up to check (since autotech recommends to check the follower on regular intervals, and I thought, 5k would be fine) 
long story short, I thought wrong and the car is now fully back to stock except for a milltek tbe and pss9 coils, so the dealer can't give me sht about other mods...


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (yohoitztho)*

It seems to me that one of the secrets is to not install an aftermarket fuel pump. Sure it seems to happen with stock fuel pump as well, but not in nearly the short amount of time. As you posted above, your fuel pump ate your follower in 5k miles. That is crazy. 
I am also curious to hear peoples impressions on their second follower. Does it wear faster than the first one? Slower? I changed mine as a preventative measure at 40k miles on my car, but I wonder if this one will last as long. 



_Modified by aeproberts21 at 2:34 PM 4-23-2009_


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Holy crap! We have a winner!!!!!!!
What oil did you use? Did your car ever run low on oil? How often oil changes?
Thanks for posting. Definitely the worst one to date!

Near the top of the list of "prizes I don't want to win".


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## vicmeer (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: (yohoitztho)*

Aside from hpfp's, another potentially critical element is whether moly grease or similar lubricant was used on the new follower. It's been reported that a new follower can be quickly worn without moly grease.


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## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (vicmeer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yohoitztho* »_... oil has always been castrol synthetic 5w30 ...

May be lighter weight oil does not offer sufficient protection, especially when you have an aftermarket fuel pump?

_Quote, originally posted by *vicmeer* »_Aside from hpfp's, another potentially critical element is whether moly grease or similar lubricant was used on the new follower. It's been reported that a new follower can be quickly worn without moly grease.

Even if you put some at installation, how long would it last? The cam lobe is constantly grinding on the cam follower at a multiple of engine rpm. Also, I thought the junction of the cam lobe and cam follower is submerged in motor oil?


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (A3_yuppie)*

Anyone converted their car from the annoying metal lines with banjo bolt to the newer design?


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (vicmeer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vicmeer* »_Aside from hpfp's, another potentially critical element is whether moly grease or similar lubricant was used on the new follower. It's been reported that a new follower can be quickly worn without moly grease.

I also don't think the grease matters a whole lot. I wouldn't put it in dry (at least use motor oil) but with it being bathed in oil and being hit once per revolution I can't see the grease staying there very long. At 2000 RPM isn't the follower getting hit 120,000 times per hour (2000 x 60 minutes)?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (dmorrow)*

Anyone who thinks using assembly lube is not important might want to read this article:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBri...n.pdf
It explains how crucial the first seconds of the cams/follower life are and how important it is that they be adequately protected during this period.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

While I am not saying that you don't need assembly lube or some sort of other moly grease, I put a dab of assembly lube on mine everytime I have it apart, that article is probably more about new engine building.
The point of assembly lube with a fresh engine build is that 1 often times the engine sits for days, weeks, or even months until it is started. If you use regular oil then it will all run out vs the lube staying in place.
2 there is no oil in the block and head on a new engine build, so the first start and resulting first several hundred if not thousands of revolutions have no new lubrication, assembly lube remains in place.
When swapping out the cam follower or pulling it apart usually the engine had been run int eh last hour or two. The oil passages while not under pressure have oil in them as does the pump and it is ready to go. Plus if you are just pulling it out and putting it back in the cam and follower are coverd with oil. Enough oil that it is fine to start and drive the car several times a day.
So yes I do feel that lube is good however on a quick check or even replacement since the new folloer comes coated in oil, really that is probably good enough for 99.9% of instances.


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## vdubobsession (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Im sorry if it was listed anywhere in the 27 pages but was anyone using mobil 1 0W40 with a failure. I have been using that because its vw 502 but all this talk about thin oil is scaring me...time to go check my follower


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (vdubobsession)*

I went through the 27 pages and I saw 2 or 3 examples of Mobil 1 0W40 that looked excellent even with quite a few miles. I don't remember seeing any bad ones but the problem is most all of the photos don't say what oil they are using so you'll have to scour the other cam follower threads too.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_While I am not saying that you don't need assembly lube or some sort of other moly grease, I put a dab of assembly lube on mine everytime I have it apart, that article is probably more about new engine building.
The point of assembly lube with a fresh engine build is that 1 often times the engine sits for days, weeks, or even months until it is started. If you use regular oil then it will all run out vs the lube staying in place.
2 there is no oil in the block and head on a new engine build, so the first start and resulting first several hundred if not thousands of revolutions have no new lubrication, assembly lube remains in place.
When swapping out the cam follower or pulling it apart usually the engine had been run int eh last hour or two. The oil passages while not under pressure have oil in them as does the pump and it is ready to go. Plus if you are just pulling it out and putting it back in the cam and follower are coverd with oil. Enough oil that it is fine to start and drive the car several times a day.
So yes I do feel that lube is good however on a quick check or even replacement since the new folloer comes coated in oil, really that is probably good enough for 99.9% of instances. 

Chris, I hear what you are saying and for inspecting and reinserting your existing follower I agree oil should be totally fine. The original follower and cam have worn together and as the article says, once this happens they can run for a long time with minimal wear. Note I say can, which implies all other factors being equal (i.e. keeping oil up, changing regularly, stock fuel pump etc. etc.).
But when you replace with a new follower that component is new. It is not a new engine but that part is new and has to "break in" with the existing cam. In that situation I think it is very similar to the conditions discussed in the article and that is where the assembly lube appears to be really important.


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## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_I went through the 27 pages and I saw 2 or 3 examples of Mobil 1 0W40 that looked excellent even with quite a few miles. I don't remember seeing any bad ones but the problem is most all of the photos don't say what oil they are using so you'll have to scour the other cam follower threads too.

don't remember what page it was i posted it on, but i changed my follower at like 43k for the first time and it was just worn, but worn very evenly, and still had quite a bit of material left. i have been using Castrol Syntec 5W40 since the day i bought the car. VW 502 approved and never a single complaint


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (zoidmk5)*

I normally use Mobile 1 and I got over 40k out of my follower. Honestly I think it would have gone a lot longer but I replaced it just to be sure. This stuff scared me.


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## JLT (May 18, 2008)

i replaced my HPFP and cam follower and at 38,000 miles my cam follower looked brand new. now i have apr hpfp. will check at oil change at 40,000 mi.


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## Fitz318is (Feb 16, 2009)

In regards to moly lube on a replacement follower: 
If we look at saaber2's second picture, the one of his cam follower it clearly shows the the follower will rotate where it sits. This tells us that there will be NO "wear together" as people have stated because of this rotation. The centre of the follower is clearly flexing, creating a high point where it contacts the cam as we can see by the metal showing. There must be some re-bound effect to as the outer edges appear to have lost the black coating as well. 
In the end, the molly lube counld't hurt, but I agree with dmorrow with it not being necessary, just soak it in oil before install.


----------



## m5roller (May 30, 2007)

*49k!*

Here is mine with 49k, all stock. Cam and pump are fine.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: 49k! (m5roller)*

If that were mine I would change it out because pretty much all the coating is gone and it has roughness on the surface. What kind of oil were you running and how often did you change oil?


----------



## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*

When you release pressure using the bleeder valve will you hear it release?
Sort of like letting air out of a compressor?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*

Mine just dribbled gas out of the valve under just a tad bit of pressure.


----------



## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_Anyone converted their car from the annoying metal lines with banjo bolt to the newer design?

How do you do that? Is there a DIY?


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (A3_yuppie)*

Left cam follower 27,000 km, bwa, b - cam, 5-40 castrol 502/505, oil change every 7500-8000 km , stock HPFP








Right cam follower same status after 8,000 km

















I believe that 502/505 is old thinking. In the next oil change I will choose Castrol Edge 5-30 504/507. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (A3_yuppie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *A3_yuppie* »_
How do you do that? Is there a DIY?

No there is no DIY, but its pretty easy if you know 
a)how to disconnect your pump (meaning you've done it a couple of times)
b)have already removed the intake manifold (its impossible to do with the manifold on
since the hard line have to be unscrewed from below, and you cannot reach them with the manifold 
bolted to the head.
Is it worth it ??
OHHHH YEAH....Follower change in 5 minutes time... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Literally every time I click on this thread it makes me want to sell my car..


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (ShutItDown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShutItDown* »_Literally every time I click on this thread it makes me want to sell my car..

you know what the funny thing about this thread is... i know longer ever have an issue with mine, 15k rev'ing to 8k and my follower still looks good as new with the APR pumpb that upgraded spring although designed to pick up the slack for the extra weight of the piston also helps keeps everything planted to the camshaft to eliminate any extra wear


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So we can say that the pump spring is one important factor?
Stronger spring instead of increasing the wear of cam follower, it leads to minimum wear by keeping everything in place?
It is not correct that by increasing the load of cam follower through spring we are making more damage? 
I am still with stock pump and the spring is the key for my future selection between apr and other pumps, but in a negative way, until now..


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Jeff, what oil do you use?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (SuckSquishBangBlow)*

castrol syntec from vw we have in 500 gallon tanks outside the shop


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

With the APR hpfp your cam follower still has the black coating on it even after 8K rpm revs?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_With the APR hpfp your cam follower still has the black coating on it even after 8K rpm revs?

yes


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Holy Schnikes!








That's GREAT!


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (seattheodore)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seattheodore* »_I believe that 502/505 is old thinking. In the next oil change I will choose Castrol Edge 5-30 504/507. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

By definition the 504 oils are low "SAPS" (sulfated ash, phosphorus, sulfur) and most have low TBN (i have heard they are 6-8 typically). So I would research the additive levels and TBN of any 504 oil before using it.
Many of the 502 oils have TBNs in the 11 range which likely means extended life. Also they have higher additive levels which likely means less wear, so you may be taking a big step backwards in terms of protection, wear, and oil life by going with a 504 oil over 502. 
Also by running that thinner oil your car may well burn more oil. In theory the 504 should help your cat last longer but if your car burns more oil it may not last as long as with 502. Also if your car burns more oil you will likely accelerate intake valve deposits which is a known problem for this engine.
Certainly the typical ZDDP additive levels which are so important to reduce wear are less. Does your 504 oil have similar protection to 502 oils with higher ZZDP (higher than 504 I mean)? If so, how? Via Boron? 
Also, the FSI destroys pretty much all oils in only 5k miles (please refer to the 40 UOA database where only adeere's 99% highway runs supported going beyond 5k) so the last thing I would want to do is use an oil that likely would not last as long such as the typically lower TBN 504 oils.


_Modified by saaber2 at 12:02 PM 5-5-2009_


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Unfortunately I am not some kind of expert in lubes and I cannot justify my selection with technical reason. I chose the mentioned oil after 2 steps. Firstly I made a search about oil recommendation for my engine and I found that 
http://www.castrol.com/castrol...44829 
And secondly I searched for more details regarding the above oil and I found the following which somehow convinced me:
http://www.trade-wind.gr/index...id=57


----------



## m5roller (May 30, 2007)

*Re: 49k! (saaber2)*

Saaber2,
Audi "free" maintenance just expired, so whatever they were using. Audi inspected it and said it was normal wear! I've never seen an oil lubricated part wear like that though, but I've owned and wrenched on BMWs for the last 12 years now. Audi did get to change by AC compressor and belt tensioner under warranty though. I paid for a new follower, so I'm covered for a bit. Will be using Castol Syntec 5w30 from here on out.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (seattheodore)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seattheodore* »_Unfortunately I am not some kind of expert in lubes and I cannot justify my selection with technical reason. I chose the mentioned oil after 2 steps. Firstly I made a search about oil recommendation for my engine and I found that 
http://www.castrol.com/castrol...44829 
And secondly I searched for more details regarding the above oil and I found the following which somehow convinced me:
http://www.trade-wind.gr/index...id=57

Righto. Of course everyone has to use whatever source of info. they choose. There may be better sources out there than Castrol Marketing info. however.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: 49k! (m5roller)*


_Quote, originally posted by *m5roller* »_Saaber2,
Audi "free" maintenance just expired, so whatever they were using. Audi inspected it and said it was normal wear! I've never seen an oil lubricated part wear like that though, but I've owned and wrenched on BMWs for the last 12 years now. Audi did get to change by AC compressor and belt tensioner under warranty though. I paid for a new follower, so I'm covered for a bit. Will be using Castol Syntec 5w30 from here on out.

Great move on replacing the follower IMO! Are you sure you want to run a 30 weight in TX? These cars have so much fuel dilution that viscosity and flashpoint are depressed like crazy even with the thickest and most shear stable oils. I would be worried about that oil holding up if it were my car in TX. If you want to use a 30 weight castrol product, why not use the notably shear-stable german castrol (0W30, says "made in germany" on back, instead of a the 5W30?) 2 cents.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_castrol syntec from vw we have in 500 gallon tanks outside the shop

Same stuff I use... my follower still went after about 4,000 hard miles.
EDIT: Actually, I run 5w40... but yeah, the follower still only lasted about 4,000 miles with the APR HPFP.


_Modified by ruso at 6:34 PM 5-6-2009_


----------



## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
By definition the 504 oils are low "SAPS" (sulfated ash, phosphorus, sulfur) and most have low TBN (i have heard they are 6-8 typically). So I would research the additive levels and TBN of any 504 oil before using it.
Many of the 502 oils have TBNs in the 11 range which likely means extended life. Also they have higher additive levels which likely means less wear, so you may be taking a big step backwards in terms of protection, wear, and oil life by going with a 504 oil over 502. 
Also by running that thinner oil your car may well burn more oil. In theory the 504 should help your cat last longer but if your car burns more oil it may not last as long as with 502. Also if your car burns more oil you will likely accelerate intake valve deposits which is a known problem for this engine.
Also, the FSI destroys pretty much all oils in only 5k miles (please refer to the 40 UOA database where only adeere's 99% highway runs supported going beyond 5k) so the last thing I would want to do is use an oil that likely would not last as long such as the typically lower TBN 504 oils.
_Modified by saaber2 at 12:02 PM 5-5-2009_

I got a Blackstone Labs oil analysis after every oil change so far (except my last one), here's the last one I got for the 30k where I went 10,980mi on Motul E-Tech 8100 0w-40. According to them, a TBN of 4.5 remaining is fine. BTW, the increased metals in the oil were probably the fact my cam and follower before my MIL was tripped and the whole cam and HPFP needed to be replaced.

















I'm now using Motul Specific 502.00 oil, but topping off with Castrol SLX LL-03 0w-30 504/507 oil and haven't noticed any change in oil consumption (yet?). *shrug*


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
There may be better sources out there than Castrol Marketing info. however.

Good point...





















...but I will give it a try and I hope that my next cam follower will give me the thumb up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## zoidmk5 (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (seattheodore)*

changing my follower this weekend for only the second time since i have owned the car. 1st was at 43K, this one will be at about 55K


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
Same stuff I use... my follower still went after about 4,000 hard miles.
EDIT: Actually, I run 5w40... but yeah, the follower still only lasted about 4,000 miles with the APR HPFP.

_Modified by ruso at 6:34 PM 5-6-2009_

do all your followers go at 4k or just that 1 follower? maybe you already had some damage to your camshaft causing the follower to wear at a faster rate


----------



## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (zoidmk5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zoidmk5* »_changing my follower this weekend for only the second time since i have owned the car. 1st was at 43K, this one will be at about 55K

Hey, I'm in a very similar position, with about 43,000 miles on the clock my original follower is looking pretty haggard but i've been hesitant to swap it out for a new one being that my cam has some marking and I don't know how long a new follower may last. I would be extremely interested to see some pictures of your old follower, cam surface, and newer follower. 
Here are mine for reference:


----------



## m5roller (May 30, 2007)

*Re: 49k! (saaber2)*

saaber2,
I actually bought 5w40 not 5w30.


----------



## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Is it worth it ??

How often do you change your follower? Mine looked fine @ 50K miles but I changed it anyway (because the banjo bolt hard fuel line was just too difficult) and I didn't think I would need to check on it until 100K miles.
Is this too risky?


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (SuckSquishBangBlow)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SuckSquishBangBlow* »_
Hey, I'm in a very similar position, with about 43,000 miles on the clock my original follower is looking pretty haggard but i've been hesitant to swap it out for a new one being that my cam has some marking and I don't know how long a new follower may last. I would be extremely interested to see some pictures of your old follower, cam surface, and newer follower. 
Here are mine for reference:


I believe that it would be better if you changed the follower. I cannot estimate how damaged is your camshaft (can you feel these markings with your nail? ) but I think that a new cf can hold at least 10,000 miles on this cam, which will not suffer more damage as the new cf will be very smooth in comparison with your old one.


----------



## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: (seattheodore)*

Shame on VW/Audi for not placing inspect cam follower in the maitenance.
Imagine all of the non-enthusiast that are gleefully driving their cars unaware of this issue.
After 6 VW/Audi products I think this will be my last one. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XM_Rocks* »_Shame on VW/Audi for not placing inspect cam follower in the maitenance.
Imagine all of the non-enthusiast that are gleefully driving their cars unaware of this issue.
After 6 VW/Audi products I think this will be my last one. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


While it may be a "problem" you have to realize you are reading about this on a forum where people do check, people do care, but also people way over react to just about anything. I'd say less then 5% of cars will have a problem before 100K miles and that includes cars with the A cams. 
For the average consumer it really is not a big deal or something to worry about.


----------



## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

While it may be a "problem" you have to realize you are reading about this on a forum where people do check, people do care, but also people way over react to just about anything. I'd say less then 5% of cars will have a problem before 100K miles and that includes cars with the A cams. 
For the average consumer it really is not a big deal or something to worry about.

I hope your right about the 5% before 100,000.
Its not the design that irritates me its the silence from VWoA on recognizing this as a potential issue that needs to be at least monitored at some interval.
So the 95% non-enthusiast arent burned by a large repair bill at 80k miles for something that could have been prevented by an inspection.
VW should man up and at least add an inspection to the 60k, 90k and 120k service interval.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XM_Rocks* »_
VW should man up and at least add an inspection to the 60k, 90k and 120k service interval.


What would they be manning up to? those are cash services.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I'd say less then 5% of cars will have a problem before 100K miles and that includes cars with the A cams.

Chris, is this considered a respectable number? IMO, it seems pretty unreasonable that 5% of a production run that might have to go through a major engine repair before 100k miles. Honestly, I don't know what other manufacturer's limits (QC) are in regards to this type of failure possibility...just curious as to what is expected from someone who works in the industry.


----------



## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
What would they be manning up to? those are cash services.

I think we are missing each other here.
Let me clarify...
I dont expect VW to pay for the inspection or replacement of the follower.
However this seems to be a wear item that at least needs to be checked similar to the timing belt/chain.
I expect VWoA to inform their customers that this part may wear and periodic checks are recommended.
The other 95% of owners try and religiously follow their maitenance schedule. I would hate to have someone that did all they could per the schedule and have a failure.
They have you check your cabin filter in the maitenance book... this seems to be a wee bit more important.


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*

+1 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
plus I don`t think that only 5% from the non-checkers will have problem at 100,000 miles


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Chris, is this considered a respectable number? IMO, it seems pretty unreasonable that 5% of a production run that might have to go through a major engine repair before 100k miles. Honestly, I don't know what other manufacturer's limits (QC) are in regards to this type of failure possibility...just curious as to what is expected from someone who works in the industry.


Who said anything about major engine repair, I was simply referring to having an issue with the cam follower period that would result in the replacement of it or need it to be checked. 
These forums are a tiny fraction of cars sold world wide and even here a tiny fraction is having a problem. While it sucks this is no where near the size of problem that its being made out to be. Dealers are not swapping cams and followers day in and day out on every car that comes through the door, most dealers don't even stock the follower. If they don't stock parts.. they aren't changing them often.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XM_Rocks* »_

The other 95% of owners try and religiously follow their maitenance schedule. I would hate to have someone that did all they could per the schedule and have a failure.


As a former dealer tech I can pretty much assure you less then .5% of customers follow the manual. Most will actually argue that the items in the book are not necessary and never do them. 
Adding a service check for the follower will do nothing but let the people who know and check already have it on paper.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Who said anything about major engine repair, I was simply referring to having an issue with the cam follower period that would result in the replacement of it or need it to be checked. 

My bad, I thought your 5% was people who where going to have the HPFP punch through the follower, thus destroying the cam.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
My bad, I thought your 5% was people who where going to have the HPFP punch through the follower, thus destroying the cam. 

I realized I mentioned something about the cam so really I made my point somewhat confusing.
In theory yes it could punch through and cause cam damage so that could be included in that 5%, the other all 5% number though I just meant problems period. This is aside from those who are modifying their vehicles in anyway as I think there are too many factors. Also many of the followers being posted have 10s of thousands of miles left on them in reality but are being replaced, which I think is exaggerating the whole problem. 
Obviously there is a design flaw, that is not being contested, just the overall reach of it from what I have seen is fairly small.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Also many of the followers being posted have 10s of thousands of miles left on them in reality but are being replaced, which I think is exaggerating the whole problem. 
Obviously there is a design flaw, that is not being contested, just the overall reach of it from what I have seen is fairly small. 

Agreed 110% http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
As a former dealer tech I can pretty much assure you less then .5% of customers follow the manual. Most will actually argue that the items in the book are not necessary and never do them. 
Adding a service check for the follower will do nothing but let the people who know and check already have it on paper. 

Thats not an excuse.
I am asking VW to add a few lines of text to their maitenance schedule to save some people potential heartache 5-10 years down the road.
If your follower disentegrates at 100k miles and it is in the maitenance that you ignored the owner would not feel like its VW's fault.
My mother makes sure all of the maitenance is by the manual and she has is hardly an enthusiast. She owns a 2006 Passat 2.0T and it is dealer serviced as were all her cars prior.
She bought the car after I suggested she drive it after she was set on buying a Camry.
She is the type to own a car for 12+ years and 150k+ miles. Any guess on if her follower would last to 150k?
Without me being on this site she would be oblivious.
I should have shut my mouth and let her buy the Camry. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

this is the kind of crap that is the reason i have to change cars every couple years. there is always something.. im glad i traded in my 2008 for a 2009.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (XM_Rocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XM_Rocks* »_
Thats not an excuse.

Not saying it is but you need to factor that in.

_Quote »_
I am asking VW to add a few lines of text to their maitenance schedule to save some people potential heartache 5-10 years down the road.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. This is all regulated, if they forget to dot an I and need to update the manual it must be approved before it can be sent by the government, this costs them millions of dollars. 

_Quote »_
If your follower disentegrates at 100k miles and it is in the maitenance that you ignored the owner would not feel like its VW's fault.

Whether its in the manual or not people blame VW or whatever company. Go hang out at a dealer for a few days. 

_Quote »_
My mother makes sure all of the maitenance is by the manual and she has is hardly an enthusiast. She owns a 2006 Passat 2.0T and it is dealer serviced as were all her cars prior.

That is good, but not common. People really just tend to mistreat their cars. The stuff that the think is important, like oil changes every 3K miles which is overkill they do, but they use the wrong oil and they ignore other services. 

_Quote »_
She bought the car after I suggested she drive it after she was set on buying a Camry.

As a former dealer tech I tend not to recommend VWs to loved ones







.. as much as I love them they are bottom of the list of cars I'd want think my family members should rely on. 

_Quote »_
She is the type to own a car for 12+ years and 150k+ miles. Any guess on if her follower would last to 150k?


Certainly not going to say yes or no and later have it used against me that would be foolish.

_Quote »_
Without me being on this site she would be oblivious.

But is this something she must know or is it something she is just now paranoid about with little reason because she does know? Think swineflu or N1H1 or whatever it is called now....
The point is the overall number of cars coming in with these issues is low. 


_Quote »_
I should have shut my mouth and let her buy the Camry. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



See above


----------



## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Unfortunately it is not that simple. This is all regulated, if they forget to dot an I and need to update the manual it must be approved before it can be sent by the government, this costs them millions of dollars. 

Pardon me, but boo f***ing hoo. The parts do not function as intended even if they're maintained according to manufacturer specs. That's a manufacturing problem, not a problem to be foisted on the responsible owner in the name of minimizing costs, IMHO.
If only 5% of the production run in the US is experiencing this problem, then it shouldn't be an issue for VWoA to simply replace them. 
I can't reasonably expect them to do so if I can't provide proper maintenance records, so that probably knocks the number of actual replacements done on their dime to something rather small. 
I don't know which is cheaper, so I'm not sure which I would do if I were VW. Doing nothing, or as near to nothing as can possibly be done, seems to be excessively lame as an alternative to the other two, especially if I want to cultivate repeat buyers, many of whom are in their 20s and are purchasing their first new cars (that's not me, BTW, I'm old enough to have 20 year old kids, and this isn't my first new car, so I'm probably more likely to move along to another manufacturer).
Just my $.02, as someone who has not been a dealer, but has been a loyal customer, keeps complete records, and currently finds his image of VW to be somewhat tarnished.











_Modified by jmj at 7:28 PM 5-8-2009_


----------



## Zer0infrn015 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*






















FAIL! I tried to check/change my follower this weekend thinking it was an easy DIY. Well everything was going great till I bent the metal line on the bottom. I stopped working on the car and tried to fix my error but after getting it all back together it spits fuel out. Getting it towed tonight or tom. and will have to pay to fix this mess up.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Zer0infrn015)*

Probably just the new angle of the pipe doesn't let it seat well. Just bend back gently and retighten IMO. Shouldn't be any big thing at all. Just have to get original angle so it can seat properly. It is a really simple design. Don't strip threads though or tighten too much. I'm talking about like on mine with no banjo bolt, it if is banjo bolt type, someone else will have to chime in as I haven't monkeyed with that.


----------



## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

so i just read every page of this thread and clearly there is no fix for this... So knowing this the best course of action would be to...
1. use a really high quality oil and change it every 5k 
2. check the follower and replace if needed (10k) 
3. is possible have the newest revisions of everything (cam B, etc...) 
4. be prepared to replace the whole system after x amount of time because no matter what they all will wear down at some point... 
oh and don't redline the car, keep the RPM's low... 
quite depressing.... lol 
(FTW i had my whole thing replaced at about 25k miles, car was driven pretty hard but was bone stock at the time) 
cam B new HPFP new follower oh and my follower was punched out and being crushed according to the tech.. car was in limp mode when i got it to the dealership. 
under warranty 


_Modified by tdotA3mike at 7:39 PM 5/17/2009_


----------



## Zer0infrn015 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: (saaber2)*

I messed with it a bit but couldn't get it to seal and I don't want to mess it up worse. Having it towed this evening and hopefully it will just be a quick fix at the dealership. On another note I hope my follower is still in tact becuase if not and there is a problem with my cams then I will be on the hook for all of the repairs.


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *jmj* »_
Pardon me, but boo f***ing hoo. The parts do not function as intended even if they're maintained according to manufacturer specs. That's a manufacturing problem, not a problem to be foisted on the responsible owner in the name of minimizing costs, IMHO.

_Quote »_
So you are running a 100% stock car and the dealer is doing 100% of service? Also, you are aware of the TSB work to replace things if a SYMPTOM comes up?
I'm not so sure where you were going with:


jmj said:


> boo f***ing hoo.






jmj said:


> jmj said:
> 
> 
> > If only 5% of the production run in the US is experiencing this problem, then it shouldn't be an issue for VWoA to simply replace them.






jmj said:


> jmj said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you get that number from? Please tell us! VWoA? You mean VGAI, I just wanted to clarify you there. Again, TSB for top down, not just a _jmj is complaining, so let's just replace the follower_.
> ...


----------



## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Where did you get that number from? Please tell us! VWoA? You mean VGAI, I just wanted to clarify you there. Again, TSB for top down, not just a _jmj is complaining, so let's just replace the follower_.
I know it can be frustrating if you aren't setting codes or GFF doesn't go your way. What if your follower was perfect and your intake cam was perfect, and you just wasted everyone's time whining (see not sure comment above).

Proper maintenance records are not just the proper oil changes, etc, but also were YOU qualified to do the work. No really.
Again, take a step back. Were you VW certified on the work? If not, you can DIAFJB in court and cry all day.
I'm not so sure you understand the GFF. And are just complaining. Being old enough to have 20 year old kids (without saying you have 20 year old kids), really has nothing to do with cam followers and failures. You moving on might be the best for everyone.

TSB, blah blah blah. My replies have been fun. I'm sorry if I missed that you were setting specific codes and had a specific symptom, GFF would have revealed that. I see you have not been a dealer, but who can afford to become a dealer? 
Did you mean "been to a dealer". If that's what you meant, then that explains quite a bit.
Cheers!



[/QUOTE]

1. I have no idea what many of your acronyms are for. I may not even care.
2. My car did not display a malfunction light, but my cam shaft, fuel pump plunger and cam follower were all worn to the point that they must be replaced (a certified VW tech made that diagnosis, not me, although I had already come to the same conclusion, despite my lack of expertise.) 
3. I may not be VW certified, but I know how to read the maintenance booklet that came with my owner's manual, how to change oil, how to purchase the correct oil and filter, and how to keep complete records. I also managed to replace my holed cam follower _even though I'm not VW certified. _ 
4. The 5% number was mentioned by chris from revo, who opined that "less than 5%" of cars are affected by this problem. Nobody knows the real number because (as far as I know) they're not published anywhere. A smaller percentage of defective engines weighs more heavily (in my whiny opinion) in favor of VW simply fixing the problem parts, even in piecemeal fashion, than in attempting to deny as many claims as possible, even though some of them pop up out of warranty. After all, we're not talking about thousands of potential repairs according to the "statistical anomaly" theory, so why not simply fix them? Especially when there are several instances cited on this BBS (including whiny 'ol jmj) in which none of the SYMPTOMS appeared, yet the parts must be replaced. 
5. Since these parts can, in fact, wear out without any warning it is possible that the fuel pump could fail during operation of the vehicle, which could pose a safety issue. I, for one, would be interested in knowing just how many defective parts VW figures there are out there, so I figured out a way to ask them. They haven't answered that question yet, but I haven't given up on getting the question answered. I suspect that they would rather fix my car than disclose that number.
6. My car is, in fact, "100% stock". I haven't flashed the ECU, altered the suspension, or stuck a fart can on the exhaust or a carbon fiber intake under the hood. I did add a Phatbox and a bluetooth system, and I hardwired my radar detector into the fuse panel, and I've altered the badging and removed the dealer sticker. I also altered the lighting and window operation with vag-com. It was serviced by the dealer through the warranty period and, as I've indicated above, I have kept records of every repair done since then, including oils changes, tire replacement, cam follower replacement and a wheel bearing replacement. I literally have a complete file on the car, as I do with all my cars in case someone asks me a bull**** question like "how do we know you actually changed the oil with the correct grade, since you're not VW certified". 
7. My "boo hoo" statement was in response to chris, who identified himself as a former dealer tech, who was complaining that it was too expensive for VW to rewrite the owner's manual to indicate that the cam follower/cam shaft/fuel pump should be inspected for premature wear. Again, if the number of defective parts are so few that it is more expensive to rewrite the maintenance booklet, then why not just replace the parts? 
8. If I sound whiny, it's because of the response I've gotten from VW, and the sanguine attitude of some of those posters who are not affected by these defective parts, especially when they accuse other posters of "whining". I've never been anything but cooperative with the service department at my dealership, and with customer care at VWoA. I will have to admit that I'm more than a little dismayed at the responses I've gotten from corporate, and the fact that the whole issue will probably have to go to court before it's fully resolved. I get the distinct impression that VWoA considers my letters to be mere "puffing", and that they will likely spend more money to avoid fixing my car than they would to simply offer to fix it in the first place.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (jmj)*

This thread has pretty much outlasted it's usefulness. The same info keeps swirling around in circles because people just don't get it, and no one seems to have really paid attention to what is happening. The problem is that people read this thread, checked their followers and immediately tossed the old followers because of some exaggeration that's been going on. 
For 1, I keep hearing "aww man the DLC coating is worn off, you need to change that follower ASAP". IMO anyone who thinks that coating isn't gonna be almost completely worn off @~15k is in denial. It's a wear-in coating.
For 2, alot of fairly low mileage followers and cams show what looks to be scratches. This means absolutely nothing. A few thousand more miles and that same follower and cam will look pristine (minus the black coating), it's all part of the wear in.
For 3, no, having an A cam does not mean you have the "bad" cam. Being slightly softer than the "B" cam means you are better off in most cases as the B cam lobes almost seem too hard. The problem with the "A" cam seems that since it was one piece, either the whole cam was heat treated to the same point, or they tried to treat the HPFP lobes seperately. Either way the problem was inconsistency or unrepeatability. IMO a good "A" cam is probably better than the "B" cam, while a bad "A" cam is just bad. If you haven't completely destroyed the first follower by 20k, the A cam is fine.
And 4th, molly lube isn't gonna help..........whatsoever really. It's already been explained.
Oh and I still think this is something VW should have owned upto. I don't think anyone really knows how big this problem is, I think while most people are overreacting in here, even if it is only 5% by 100k, that's 1 of 20 cars that will need a major engine repair that, can't be blamed on neglect. Nonetheless, it's a poor design and that can't be disputed.


_Modified by blackvento36 at 2:45 AM 5-18-2009_


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
For 1, I keep hearing "aww man the DLC coating is worn off, you need to change that follower ASAP". IMO anyone who thinks that coating isn't gonna be almost completely worn off @~15k is in denial. It's a wear-in coating.


Have you seen cam followers from Audi S3, Golf Edition 30 and generally cars with K04 as stock turbo?
Check this out and you will realize that it is not a wear in coating that should be completely worn off at 15k








I am talking about 20k or 30k with not even a discoloration on black coating. I have seen 2-3 S3s with damaged cf but the majority were perfect.
So I believe that we really have a problem and we must be very careful 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (seattheodore)*

No I haven't seen any followers from K04 equipped cars. But I don't see where that makes a difference anyway. I'm sure I could be wrong since I never really delved into the S3 or E30, but I'm pretty sure the fuul pump drive is the exact same between FSIs, especially since the E30 is closer to the BPY than it is to the S3 engine. I did a quick look around and saw nothing of S3s having less problems. If that coating is meant to last more than say 15k miles tops, just show me one thread with pictures where the poster says it in his own words. Or better yet just explain to me why K04 cars have a supposedly smaller failure rate.


----------



## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_No I haven't seen any followers from K04 equipped cars. But I don't see where that makes a difference anyway. I'm sure I could be wrong since I never really delved into the S3 or E30, but I'm pretty sure the fuul pump drive is the exact same between FSIs, especially since the E30 is closer to the BPY than it is to the S3 engine. I did a quick look around and saw nothing of S3s having less problems. If that coating is meant to last more than say 15k miles tops, just show me one thread with pictures where the poster says it in his own words. Or better yet just explain to me why K04 cars have a supposedly smaller failure rate.

I am not a mechanic or vw employee and I don`t know the actual reason. The only thing I know for sure is that they have different camshaft and HPFP with newer code than mine (the sculptured number on my pump is 42 and I have seen S3 with 51). Also, another difference that I have noticed is that here in Greece every guy with K04 stock car that I am asking he puts in his engine Mobil 1 esp 504/507 5-30 or Castrol Edge 504/507 5-30 when I use Castrol 502/505 5-40. 
Maybe is a coincidence and these differences have nothing to do with the endurance of cam follower, or maybe not...


----------



## utekineir (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (seattheodore)*

19k stock hpfp, apr stage 2, oil changed with castrol 5-40 up till around 15k then castrol 0-30 european. 
Here are pictures of the follower when it was replaced today. Lobe looked to have a couple scratches, but far less damage than some of the other pictures of lobes in this and other threads. 
















Here is the same follower when it was pulled around 13k and reinserted.


----------



## Bigd4sho (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (utekineir)*

just checked mine yesterday, cam follower looked in great condition, no pictures because i have no camera, 42000 miles, apr stage 1 since 26000, stage 2 at 32000, 2006 gti, not sure what cam revision because didnt have something small enough to get the plate off.


----------



## BerinG (Nov 25, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Bigd4sho)*

as anyone seen the TSB?
http://www.kmdtuning.com/store...).pdf
It says that if it has minimal wear, to NOT replace the follower nor the cams. only in extreme cases
Seems pretty clear in there at least... or is it just a way of getting you to change the whole thing ($$$ for them) when it is completely ruined.. i assumed that is not the point since the TSB should not be public anyway
Nice to have the "official" dealer response at least


----------



## ar_mike (Jan 21, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside ([email protected])*

I've driven my car for 106,000 kms now and felt like it's time to inspect/change the cam follower. I'm on stock program and stock hpfp. Upon following the DIY, I was successful in releasing the pressure using the bleeder valve. However, ever since I had my intake, I've been going without an engine cover. This resulted in rusting on the hpfp. Hence, I couldn't unscrew the 13mm bleeder valve. The bolt is starting to strip and I've already tried spraying some lubricant to help it unseize. Unfortunately, none of this is helping. I'm suspecting this to be the case for all the bolts/screws that I'd have to remove for this DIY. What should I do!???! Please Help!!
Thanks,
Michael


----------



## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*FV-QR*

What oil weight are all you cam follower failures using?
these theads make me so nervous and then my cam followers last me over 20k before they even start looking like they should be replaced. This is with the autotech fuel pump and rs4s.


----------



## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (ar_mike)*

"What should I do!???! Please Help!!
Thanks,
Michael"

stripped mine too. vise grips did the trick.


----------



## ar_mike (Jan 21, 2006)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (LEWXCORE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LEWXCORE* »_"What should I do!???! Please Help!!
Thanks,
Michael"

stripped mine too. vise grips did the trick.

using vise grips would take the bolts out; however, this would ruin the bolts as well. Should I get replacements at the dealership?? How about the 3x torx screws that hold the hpfp??


----------



## broccliman (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (ar_mike)*

I dont know if someone else already asked this (this is a huge thread), but I was expecting to see 1 line going into the bottom of the HPFP which is the plastic one referred to by JC. I was checking my follower for the first time tonight and it apparently my pump has 2 lines.








I am pretty sure I need to unscrew both of these, but i wanted to verify. Just a novice who loves his car. Thanks!
edit: I was just thinking, its probably different because I still have the stock pump. Is this a correct assumption?


_Modified by broccliman at 8:23 PM 9-29-2009_


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## Twelvizm (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (broccliman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *broccliman* »_I dont know if someone else already asked this (this is a huge thread), but I was expecting to see 1 line going into the bottom of the HPFP which is the plastic one referred to by JC. I was checking my follower for the first time tonight and it apparently my pump has 2 lines.








I am pretty sure I need to unscrew both of these, but i wanted to verify. Just a novice who loves his car. Thanks!
edit: I was just thinking, its probably different because I still have the stock pump. Is this a correct assumption?

_Modified by broccliman at 8:23 PM 9-29-2009_

First post, it says:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_undo the metal line with a 17mm wrench but leave the rubber line attached it makes it easier to reinstall this way

reading is fundamental







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ar_mike (Jan 21, 2006)

Earlier 2.0T's (like mine) have two metal lines. In that case, one would have to unscrew the 17mm bolt and then unscrew the banjo bolt with an M8 triple square bit. However, if you have one of the later 2.0T's (like in the above picture), then there should be enough slack to just leave the rubber line alone.


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## broccliman (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (ar_mike)*

Haha. I really messed that one up. Thanks for the pity replies!


----------



## JosephH1 (May 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

For those with 2 metal lines, it is a 12 pt torx, 8mm


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (broccliman)*

yeah, i was a bit confused by this too. i bent the metal line a bit to move the fuel pump out and left the rubber one attached.
i had a bit of trouble pulling the follower out... didn't come out as easy as jc said it should (with thumb... had to use pliers... carefully). i've got just under 52k ('07 GTI, byp) and figured i should check mine. what do you guys think... replace? i don't see any serious pitting and/or deformation (despite appearances in 2nd photo). seems like shiny surface on both sides is flush with the tarnished outter surfaces, photos:








































i want to play it safe but i do NOT want to pull that airbox again.

_Modified by applen at 6:22 PM 11-16-2009_


_Modified by applen at 6:24 PM 11-16-2009_


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: how to change your cam follower inside (applen)*

oh yeah, i'm 100% stock, w.r.t. engine.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

replace. its wearing pretty nicely, but it's better to be running on a 100% new follower than to keep running on one that has a good chunk of its metal already taken off.


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*

hmmm... probably will.







but really there is very, very little metal missing. and i'm feeling pretty good about the 52k mark.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (applen)*

Not that bad for 52k. The outside photo is what is important the inside photos are less so. Not a bad idea to replace it because your diamond like coating is gone in the center so one would expect increased wear from now on. That is not a "wear-in" coating as someone on vortex keeps incorrectly saying. It is not meant to wear away and is a good indicator of how much your follower is wearing.


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

while putting everthing back together i seem to have dropped the washer that goes inside the hpfp/metal fuel line on the bottom.
it's a real pita to get in there and i kept dropping it. finally i dropped it somewhere in the engine compartment that i cannot find (but i did search for over an hour, with light, magnets and blindly grasping at crevices).








is this washer critical (i'm assuming yes since it's an important interface for the hpfp)? how the heck can i find a replacement?
i'm partially hoping i'm just taking crazy pills and no washer actually needs to be in there and that washer fell out of something else durring disassembly.








anyone?


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

@ saaber2, sidenote: i've started using redline oil due to reading some of your extensive posts on the oil subject with this engine. i've got 10W40 now but will 5W30 work well in colorado winters with good protection for cam followers and byp in general? seems to be the only thing i can source locally this time of year.


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## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (applen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *applen* »_while putting everthing back together i seem to have dropped the washer that goes inside the hpfp/metal fuel line on the bottom.
it's a real pita to get in there and i kept dropping it. finally i dropped it somewhere in the engine compartment that i cannot find (but i did search for over an hour, with light, magnets and blindly grasping at crevices).








is this washer critical (i'm assuming yes since it's an important interface for the hpfp)? how the heck can i find a replacement?
i'm partially hoping i'm just taking crazy pills and no washer actually needs to be in there and that washer fell out of something else durring disassembly.








anyone? 

Have you moved your car? if not then don`t lose your faith and keep looking or else you will be forced to take out your pump again. When the same thing happened to me I removed some tubes in order to make space and search easier.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (applen)*

if its SUPER COLD, go for something like a 0w40 or 0w30. that way it flows really well when cold, but can still thicken up when it gets warmed up.
5w30 would probably work fine tho.


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (seattheodore)*

edit: found it. all along it was in the rag i put under the HPFP to catch stuff that fell. which makes me feel a lot better as i scoured that whole engine bay for it last night!

_Quote, originally posted by *seattheodore* »_
Have you moved your car? if not then don`t lose your faith and keep looking or else you will be forced to take out your pump again. When the same thing happened to me I removed some tubes in order to make space and search easier.

haven't moved it yet. this whole ordeal is really making me want to get an aftermarket intake or mod the airbox mounts.
did you lose the same washer, or another one?


_Modified by applen at 1:56 PM 11-17-2009_


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## seattheodore (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (applen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *applen* »_edit: found it. all along it was in the rag i put under the HPFP to catch stuff that fell. 


oh mein Gott...


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (seattheodore)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seattheodore* »_
oh mein Gott...






































indeed! it seems i 'got got' by myself









now i hope the break-in process goes smoothly. engineerd's comments on this thread have me worried about mating a new follower to an old cam (which looked good btw).


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (applen)*

5W30 should work great. Redline 5w40 and 5w30 both have similar and pretty amazing cold properties. The 5w30 contains moly while 5w40 does not (5w40 uses a different additive package due to "diesel" labeling, most redline oils including 10W40 have loads of moly). 
Redline use moly as a friction modifier and anti-wear additive as I understand it. Very interesting stuff. In low doses it is often used as an anti-oxidant. In higher doses it can fill in the asperities of the metal, effectively "micro-polishing" the surface. It also can improve the hardness of the surface significantly. It also has a friction modifier effect as the moly "platelets" slide past each other. Some studies have shown 20-40% reduction in friction and wear due to moly "nano-particles". Not trying to say moly is always better, because it is not necessarily. Totally depends on the formulation, the type of moly used, etc. In an ester oil, very high quantities are needed due to surface competition.
So the advantages of redline's 5w30 include thinner viscosity at operating temp which may translate into slightly better mpg/turbo spool-up, and it uses moly. We need UOAs on it to compare against redline's 5w40 performance in this engine. The 5W40 is thicker which may provide more protection over longer oil change intervals and/or harder use but really we need side-by-side comparisons to say that. I am running my current redline 5W40 fill out to about 7500 miles just to see how the oil behaves at that longer interval. 5w30, 5w40, and 10w40 all have very strong anti-wear additive packs so they both should be extremely good at cam/follower protection. Please let us know if you feel any difference in turbo spool up or mpg when switching from 10W40 to 5W30. That would be interesting. I would expect maybe a 1-2 mpg difference but would have to try it to see.
The ester oils are fairing better in this engine according to the UOAs we have so far. I'd love to see some Motul 300V and more Biosyn 5W40 (diester) UOAs. I am always looking for the best oil for this engine. It murders 502 oils.


----------



## KCMTNBIKER (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

Changed mine at 52k. Didn't look too bad other than the coating being worn off.


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (KCMTNBIKER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KCMTNBIKER* »_Changed mine at 52k. Didn't look too bad other than the coating being worn off.

looks like the coating was worn off pretty evenly over the entire follower face... is that correct (hard to tell with glare).
do you have a shot of the inside?


----------



## applen (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_ 5w30, 5w40, and 10w40 all have very strong anti-wear additive packs so they both should be extremely good at cam/follower protection. 

thanks saaber2. i was mostly interested in hearing about moly content. previous to this post i was leaning more towards 10W30 for the winter. any noteable difference with respect to 5W30?
also are the detergent additives about the same for all of these? i'm hoping the RL will help clean out all the oil deposits i've got from 40k of 502's as well.
i'll let you know if i notice any changes in mpg/spool-up.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (applen)*

Hard to say if you would see any real world difference between the 10w30 and 5w30. Looking at redline's published specs they are almost the same. Flashpoint, viscosity index, are slightly different so they do have a bit different chemistry. I would use the 5w30 in Boulder winter. The operating temp difference in viscosity is only 0.1cst, which is basically nothing, and the 5w may give cold start benefits.


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

Anyone know the cam follower part # for our engines. (BPY - 2.0T engine) 
I went to order it off of 1stvwparts website & I realized that I need the part #.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

Nevermind I found it @ the beginning of this thread. duh


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## A3Danimal (Feb 8, 2006)

*My cam follower*

So I had ordered a new one, just in case, but the old one actually looks pretty good! Do you guys think I should still replace it? Or replace the stock one and check it again in another 10k

BTW, car has 65k miles on it

Inside looks really good:









It is so smooth and shiny it was hard to take a picture of:









I can detect just the smallest rise but only with me fingernail:


----------



## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

The majority of the DLC is gone. I would replace it.

This is what it looks like new.


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## A3Danimal (Feb 8, 2006)

Ya, the new one is in there. I figured I bought it, I might as well replace it. Its like your oil filter. If you pulled it, but thought it was still good, you wouldn't put it back on the car... :screwy:

But at least mine looks good, and according to the Audi parts guy, I have the old fuel pump.... Because I had to order another banjo bolt for the fuel line because I dropped mine and it went somewhere in the engine that I can't get at....:banghead: 

I've hardly had any issues with the car, knock on wood.... Good ol' 2005.5


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

Replaced it on the wife's 2007 GTI for the second time at 50K miles (20K interval). The first one was replaced at 30K miles. 

The wear rate seems proportional to miles as this one looked just a tad better than the first one. I plan to keep this as a 20K service item.


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

Where have I been when this thread was created? Good info.


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## 2slojetta0L (Dec 15, 2001)

Did you guys see the facebook page dedicated to 2.0FSi cam followers. It's a shame that nothing is being done by vw to resolve these issues-I guess bringing out the TSI is their idea of fixing the issue-and **** the rest of us- maybe someone has some pull that can get this public and make vw responsible-anyway here is the page- 
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=235507629582&ref=ts


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## curvedinfinity (Oct 11, 2004)

Just replaced mine. 60800 miles on the odo. I could hear that it had been punctured for a while before replacing. Makes a scraping sound instead of the normal DI clicking sound.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

curvedinfinity said:


> Just replaced mine. 60800 miles on the odo. I could hear that it had been punctured for a while before replacing. Makes a scraping sound instead of the normal DI clicking sound.


Ouch! What oil have you been using and how often is it changed?


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## curvedinfinity (Oct 11, 2004)

saaber2 said:


> Ouch! What oil have you been using and how often is it changed?


I have used a variety of oils. Intervals have been around 7-8,000 aside from the first two, which were 5000. I used crappy oils the first 30,000 miles (didn't know any better), and have used Motul 8100 0W-30 since 40,000.

I participate in HPDEs, so my motor is stressed more than average.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

curvedinfinity said:


> Just replaced mine. 60800 miles on the odo. I could hear that it had been punctured for a while before replacing. Makes a scraping sound instead of the normal DI clicking sound.


Time for a new camshaft bro.


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## arismkv (Jun 17, 2008)

i thought there was a tsb on this, that was just released? 

ps. i also have the old fp from early 06. i have no bleeder valve. does anyone have a diy on that?? 

i need to know what tool to use for the screw on the bottom left.


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## superacerc (Jul 6, 2010)

*Just replaced my cam follower.*

I became so paranoid after surfing this forum i had to replace mine. I've got 44k miles and it hardly looked worn at all. I wonder if VW replaced mine before I bought it used as a Certified Pre-owned VW. I kept my old one to use as a spare just in case after I got APR Stage 2+ it starts to wear more. 

Thanks goes to the OP who posted the instructions and made this one of the easiest fixes i've every done.


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## Jettn1 (Jun 9, 2010)

superacerc said:


> I became so paranoid after surfing this forum i had to replace mine. I've got 44k miles and it hardly looked worn at all. I wonder if VW replaced mine before I bought it used as a Certified Pre-owned VW. I kept my old one to use as a spare just in case after I got APR Stage 2+ it starts to wear more.
> 
> Thanks goes to the OP who posted the instructions and made this one of the easiest fixes i've every done.


They probably didn't replace it, since it's just a TSB....unless it had problems then they would have. I bought my 07 B6 with 66k miles, certified pre-owned, this past July and after having car for a month I had to have new follower, HPFP, and cam shaft. :banghead: The dealership I bought from said they don't replace TSB items unless it is causing problems. :screwy: You can always have the dealership pull the history of work done and it will show. :thumbup:

Tammy


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## superacerc (Jul 6, 2010)

Maybe it wasn't. I just thought it looked too new. Hardly had any black off of it at all except right in the center and the fuel pump side wasn't bad at all. Thanks. At least I know how easy it is now when i go to get a new high volume fuel pump and put it in.


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## eddiefury (Aug 5, 2007)

rippie74 said:


> Time for a new camshaft bro.


yeah...what's the damage on your camshaft??


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## Austrian Beauty (Dec 15, 2000)

Here is mine after 78K miles\
Always used 5W40 Castrol Synthetic at 5K miles since new.



New cam follower is in the back. 









inside view










Macro/ zoomed in view of cam shaft ....










What are your thoughts?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Ouch! That cam could be a lot better. I would use a better oil. The 5k mile oil change interval is smart based on what we've seen with the Used oil analyses (UOAs) on this engine (now over 100 of them). Syntec 5w40 has shown to be the worst shearing of all the oils in the database. Flashpoint retention is poor and iron per 1000 miles (which may be an indicator of wear but difficult to generalize based on UOAs alone) is by far the highest of any oil.

I would go for an ester based oil with a strong anti-oxidant and anti-wear additive pack. Ester based oils withstand the fuel dilution of U.S. cars (non lean burn mode) much better than the PAO-based VW 502 oils. Here is 25k miles worth of wear on my follower using an ester based oil. Note that this is just one example and by itself is of limited value. But we have to look at the data we have. I wonder if you used a high moly content oil if you would see some limited "healing" in the form of microplating/micropolishing of the cam. Would be interesting to see if it made any difference but I doubt it would with those scratches. Also, no matter what oil you use, I'd keep a sharp eye on the new follower as that cam is pretty beat.

at about 11k miles

















at about 36k miles


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## eddiefury (Aug 5, 2007)

Austrian Beauty said:


> Here is mine after 78K miles\
> Always used 5W40 Castrol Synthetic at 5K miles since new.
> 
> 
> ...


any mods??


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## Austrian Beauty (Dec 15, 2000)

eddiefury said:


> any mods??


Only chipped with APR, but running in stock 80% of time. No other engine mods.


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## eger (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks to this article, I just checked mine with ease (no banjo bolt, was relatively easy with the right torx sizes). Snapped some pictures of the follower. Camshaft looked perfectly smooth. This is after 50k miles. 5k oil change intervals on stock Castrol Syntec. Have only been chipped for about 500 miles. I'm not guessing how much further I could go on this one. I sided on safe and have ordered a new one.


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## rboss101 (Jan 29, 2011)

*Question*



eger said:


> Thanks to this article, I just checked mine with ease (no banjo bolt, was relatively easy with the right torx sizes). Snapped some pictures of the follower. Camshaft looked perfectly smooth. This is after 50k miles. 5k oil change intervals on stock Castrol Syntec. Have only been chipped for about 500 miles. I'm not guessing how much further I could go on this one. I sided on safe and have ordered a new one.


 I just replaced mine at 95k (km) it had a hole in it. Cam looked very slightly scratched BUT it had ding in it. Hmmm 3mm wide by 1mm tall (i guess) not deep at all. I replaced the follower, like I said, but doo I need to replace the pump? It was worn down from touching the cam and had developed an oval shape to the tip. Can I drive it for some time before I replace the pump? Should I go to the dealership? I'm from Canada by the way. I was pissed off when I saw the follower. I bought it at 72k and brought it to dealer for inspection and service. They never told me to watch out for anything. F...ers.


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## White_A3 (Feb 27, 2009)

I just checked my cam follower yesterday, its at 86k and it was mint. Cam was mint. I'll take pics of it when i re-install my fuel pump and get a new follower just to be safe, but still i was very very surprised! Luck of the draw i guess!


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## dub4orl (Sep 4, 2008)

very upset at the moment. car had been giving me issues...I'm at 75,000+ miles and already am doing the timing belt service next weekend but decided that this would be next on the top of my list of things to check after replacing OEM intake/cover with new intake.

Not chipped at all, completely stock minus the turboback exhaust from GHL and the cam follower was completely worn through. I've used Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol Syntec 5-40, and Motul as well (all of which I consider to be high in quality). I took a look at the surface of the cam lobe and it didn't look too bad but the fuel pump didn't look too great. Taking the car to my local vw service tech to have them look at it further while they complete the timing belt service. 

feeling worried...does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be? please?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

dub4orl said:


> feeling worried...does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be? please?


Find a pair of really nice boobies and have some fun with them. or, better yet, two pairs. or more, if your that awesome.

Otherwise, its a 2.0T FSI BPY. its less reliable, and more expensive than most other motors on the market. enjoy. :laugh:


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## eddiefury (Aug 5, 2007)

dub4orl said:


> very upset at the moment. car had been giving me issues...I'm at 75,000+ miles and already am doing the timing belt service next weekend but decided that this would be next on the top of my list of things to check after replacing OEM intake/cover with new intake.
> 
> Not chipped at all, completely stock minus the turboback exhaust from GHL and the cam follower was completely worn through. I've used Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol Syntec 5-40, and Motul as well (all of which I consider to be high in quality). I took a look at the surface of the cam lobe and it didn't look too bad but the fuel pump didn't look too great. Taking the car to my local vw service tech to have them look at it further while they complete the timing belt service.
> 
> feeling worried...does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be? please?


have you never checked the follower up until 75K miles??


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## naiku (Sep 6, 2008)

dub4orl said:


> Not chipped at all, completely stock minus the turboback exhaust from GHL and the cam follower was completely worn through. I've used Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol Syntec 5-40, and Motul as well (all of which I consider to be high in quality). I took a look at the surface of the cam lobe and it didn't look too bad but the fuel pump didn't look too great. Taking the car to my local vw service tech to have them look at it further while they complete the timing belt service.
> 
> feeling worried...does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't be? please?


I feel your pain, just hope that you have a good dealer. I checked my cam follower and also found it worn completely through, 3 weeks later and I am still trying to get AoA to do something about it and my HPFP/Cam.


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## dub4orl (Sep 4, 2008)

Krieger said:


> Find a pair of really nice boobies and have some fun with them. or, better yet, two pairs. or more, if your that awesome.
> 
> Otherwise, its a 2.0T FSI BPY. its less reliable, and more expensive than most other motors on the market. enjoy. :laugh:


haha...2 pairs would be baller but I'll settle for one. just sucks because i rarely beat on my car or drive it hard. i actually take it pretty easy to be honest. thanks for the laugh though :beer:



eddiefury said:


> have you never checked the follower up until 75K miles??


yeah, i had checked it at 50,000 miles and it looked fine. like i said, i'm a pretty conservative driver with the only engine modifications being a ghl turboback. 



naiku said:


> I feel your pain, just hope that you have a good dealer. I checked my cam follower and also found it worn completely through, 3 weeks later and I am still trying to get AoA to do something about it and my HPFP/Cam.


should i take it to the dealer? I mean...i don't usually do my service through them. I change my own oil, do my own brakes, and when it's something big I go to my local mechanic which is very reputable. Plus, I'm way beyond my warranty (about 25,000+ miles over). What could they do?


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dub4orl said:


> should i take it to the dealer? I mean...i don't usually do my service through them. I change my own oil, do my own brakes, and when it's something big I go to my local mechanic which is very reputable. Plus, I'm way beyond my warranty (about 25,000+ miles over). What could they do?


Some people have gotten warranty or at least partial warranty and it seems like this is more common now than in the beginning. I would take it to the dealer and try for help with this. I also read where some people said the warranty for this issues was extended to 100k miles but I never saw anything official.


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## dub4orl (Sep 4, 2008)

dmorrow said:


> Some people have gotten warranty or at least partial warranty and it seems like this is more common now than in the beginning. I would take it to the dealer and try for help with this. I also read where some people said the warranty for this issues was extended to 100k miles but I never saw anything official.


thanks for the heads up. worse comes to worse I can always try my luck at the dealership. Even if it's a partial coverage it's better than footing the bill completely out of pocket. thanks :thumbup:


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## pootey (Nov 12, 2006)

so i pulled mine today its an 07 gti with 12,500 miles.. it looked in really good shape. let me know what u guys think. its smooth and doesn't seem to have that much wear


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## pootey (Nov 12, 2006)

or not


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## jonnybegood (Mar 14, 2011)

you got an 07 with 12.5k on it? nice!, mines got 71k lol....but yea i just pulled mine out today, dont know if it's been changed before but i got some wear, nothing too serious but im gonna swap it out for a new one 
looks too me like yours is in pretty good shape and you got some miles before you outa change it, either way it's like $50 and change it when you start getting iffy about it....cant hurt


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## dub4orl (Sep 4, 2008)

**UPDATE** 

Got it repaired at my local shop. They really took care of me and I trusted them more than the dealers down here anyway. Ended up changing the camshaft, fuel pump, and got a full timing belt service while I was there. Damage = $1,600. If anyone local to South Florida is looking for a shop, contact Wolfcars Motorsports. They really treated me well and took care of everything. 

Going forward, I will be checking this stupid cam follower every 10,000 miles. Sucks, but I'm not in the mood to pay for another repair bill of that size. 

This thread is excellent and I'm glad it's as informative and especially active as it is. It helped me diagnose my cars problems albeit too late, but for anyone else, it's truly a great page to have on the 2.0TFSI Engine forum. 
:beer:


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## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

dub4orl said:


> **UPDATE**
> 
> Got it repaired at my local shop. They really took care of me and I trusted them more than the dealers down here anyway. Ended up changing the camshaft, fuel pump, and got a full timing belt service while I was there. Damage = $1,600. If anyone local to South Florida is looking for a shop, contact Wolfcars Motorsports. They really treated me well and took care of everything.
> 
> ...


 This is now a recall from vwoa.


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## rboss101 (Jan 29, 2011)

dubman6 said:


> This is now a recall from vwoa.


 Is there some kind of official statement from them saying this?


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## AndyG86 (Mar 20, 2011)

rboss101 said:


> Is there some kind of official statement from them saying this?


 I bought my 06 GLI this past friday. I went to the dealership right after to get a history on the car. The Cam Follower is now a warranty extension the computer said until 120,000 miles or some date in 2016, don't remember the data exactly. 

I am still going to pull it a part and pay the $50 to replace the follower if it needs it, not worth dealing with the hassle later on.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dubman6 said:


> This is now a recall from vwoa.


 There is not a recall. A recall involves bringing in all possibly affected cars to change something. 

There is talk of an extended warranty but I have not seen anything official from VW or Audi.


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## g60rabbit (Sep 6, 2000)

Ok I hate to be "that guy" but I have been looking at DIY all night on changing my serp belt in my S4 and some other odds and ends and cant find the info I am looking for on changing the cam follower in my 08 GTI. 

Very simple. What if anything should I put on the cam follower [lube wise] upon install. I found one thread about redline something or other. But what exacty should I use. 

Again I know its probably right in front of my face but I didnt see it:banghead:


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## Barn01 (Feb 26, 2011)

It's going to get covered in oil anyhow so I wouldn't worry about anything special. I just changed mine at 158K km's and it was still in tack but I'll admit it did look like the second last pic in the TSB. 

Oh and I didn't have to remove the bango bolt. Start to finish first time took me about an hour. Next time I could likely do it in half that.


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## rboss101 (Jan 29, 2011)

*Correspondence with VW Canada*

LAST EMAIL >start at the bottom

RE: 2006 Volkswagen Passat 

VIN: XXX 

Dear Mr. XXX:



We have reviewed our file pertaining to this matter and regret to advise there is no new information to pass along to you. The Limited New Vehicle Warranty on your vehicle covers repairs due to manufacturer shortcomings for 4 years or 80,000 kms, whichever occurs first. Technical bulletins are not related to campaigns on a vehicle, but rather tips for repair should a dealer come across such concerns. We have forwarded your information to the production department and they will be reviewing for future models.



We do not track internet information. We review information about Volkswagen vehicles from Volkswagen Dealers and through Volkswagen Canada Customer Care. Online websites may contain information about US vehicles. Volkswagen manufactures vehicles differently for US and Canada. Our dealers are aware of all campaigns and warranty extension pertaining to an individual Vehicle Identification Number. We recommend contacting a Volkswagen dealer each and every time you have an issue with your vehicle, so that it may be dealt with, and entered into our systems for tracking purposes for Volkswagen Canada.



If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-822-8987 or visit the contact us section of our website www.vw.ca.



Sincerely,



Monique

Volkswagen Canada Customer Care

__________________________________________________________________________________


Dear Mr. XXX,



Thank you for your email dated February 15, 2011 regarding Technical Service Bulletin's on the cam followers. 



Volkswagen Canada will be reviewing this information internally.



We thank you for your loyalty and appreciate you contacting customer care concerning this issue.



Sincerely,



Monique

Volkswagen Canada Customer Care



From: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:15 AM
To: Mcconnell, Monique
Subject: RE: Case #110041897



Thank you Ms. Monique for the useful information you provided me with. 

I was able to locate VW and Audi TSB's concerning cam followers on 2.0T FSI engines (early models '06 and '07). Please take some time and look at the links I provided you with. You will notice that they were issued for all VIN numbers because they are known to fail. As the problem was known, revision of new intake cam with hardened cam lobe was being produced. The reason I am providing you with all this information is that I am trying to point out a problem in the manufacturing process that is affecting these engines. If you look through the forums you will notice there are thousands of people who were affected by this problem. Aside from two forums that I sent you, there are dozens of different ones where people are complaining about the same thing. 

I would like to ask you to please communicate this to someone and advocate on not only my behalf but thousands of others. These people including myself have been loyal VW customers for many many years. Please offer advice. Going to a dealership so the VW technicians can only diagnose intake cam, fuel pump and cam follower failure is really not an option if its going to be at an expense of the customer. As mentioned i my earlier email , if we knew the problem existed every owner would look after this as a part of regular maintenance. It is evident that VW and Audi new(in 2007 and 2009, respectively, when those TSB's were issued), but nothing was done before problems started occurring.

Here are the links:

http://www.kmdtuning.com/store/images/150702TSB(2).pdf

http://www.golfmk5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106196

Thank you for your time and your help, 

XXX

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Case #110041897
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:06:11 -0500
From: [email protected]
To: 


Dear Mr. XXX,



Thank you for contacting Volkswagen Canada regarding your concerns about the cam followers on your 2006 Volkswagen Passat.



Volkswagen issues recalls by Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), as in any particular year there may be several different production lines and not all of the production lines would use the same parts for every item on the vehicle. When we find that there is an issue with a particular part, we check the production line for the VIN's that are affected and notify our customers who own those vehicles. 



We open campaigns based on information we receive from our dealers about the vehicles that are brought into their dealerships. There are no current campaigns or warranty extension concerning this issue. If you are having an issue with your vehicle we would recommend taking it to your local dealer for a current diagnosis. 



We would like to bring to your attention that there is an open campaign on your vehicle that should be addressed; the T3 - Yazaki Connector should be looked at by your local Volkswagen dealer. Your local Volkswagen dealer will be able to see this campaign in their system under your VIN (Vehicle Identification Number).



We thank you for a taking the time to make us aware of your concern. If you have further comments, please feel free to contact us via email at our website, www.vw.ca or call us at 1-800-822-8987.



Sincerely,



Monique

Volkswagen Canada Customer Care


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Interesting e-mail exchange. I think you did a good job of stating the facts and doing it without pointing fingers or threatening them. They did a good job of taking mostly form e-mails and inserting "cam follower" or whatever. I wonder if you sent the same e-mail but said there was a problem with lava coming out of the exhaust if you would get the same letters.

When did the last e-mail come out (the one on top)? For all the talk of the extended warranty, either this came out before the decision to extend it, there isn't an extension, or this person didn't know about it.


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## rboss101 (Jan 29, 2011)

Last email they sent me was on March 22. I don't think there is any kind of warranty extension. At least no one was able to provide hard proof of it. I just wish they own up to mistake they made...but it would not be ineteresting if life was fair. I guess just pay and move on. Next time will skip VW.


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## GTI_Fahrenheit_859 (Jan 13, 2009)

My '07 GTI just passed 59,3xx miles, so I checked my cam and cam follower today. What do you guys think?



































This is the first time I have checked, and I am so happy to have Rev. B Cam.









Is my cam follower in good condition?


Thanks!


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

Your follower and, more importantly, your cam lobe, look fine. I usually check mine at every oil change just to make sure it's not wearing out too quickly.


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## jonnybegood (Mar 14, 2011)

Looks good....I'd change it for the peice of mind incase the metal is starting to concave and thin, it's $55 from the dealer. Good investment. I did mine, my diverter(thought it was acting up but it wasn't haha, still don't know what the noise is), and just ordered the revised oem pcv with breather cuz of some minor oil along valve cover gasket and some I think a bit too heavy of oil consumption:beer:


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

Thanks for this thread.

Here is my follower at 30,000 miles. 

2008 GTI FSI


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## x9t (Sep 19, 2005)

Change it once the black material is gone. As long as its not concaved.. and cam looks good... and your not getting fuel cuts ur good.

I got the letters from VW and had the dealership check at my expense.. but it was bad so they replaced it.. cam follower, fuel pump, and cam.. this was about a month ago.. car is running great now.

JT


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

I know as long as its flat and the black protective surface is still in place you're good. I went ahead and changed it since it was apart, and the part is not TERRIBLY expensive.

I still have 30,000 miles on my CPO warranty which covers drive train, but I don't want to deal with it going bad if it doesnt go bad until AFTER the warranty ends on me.


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## najel (Apr 10, 2008)

Let's bring this thread back up 
I just checked my follower today. I just really wanted to see what it looked like and did not have a replacement on hand. Here are some pics:







What do you guys think? I am currently really wondering about the extended warranty. Is this enough damage for them to replace it, or would it have to be worn through for them to do anything about it? If somebody has experience with this, please let me know. Otherwise I might just ask VWOA send them the photos and see what they say?
I could also imagine that they will only replace this if it worn through completely, in that case I would just go ahead and do it at the next oil change.

Oh BTW the car is a little over 80 k miles now. It is an 06 Passat, and it looks like the previous owner was quite religious about oil changes at the dealership, so maybe that is why it isn't worse than this.


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

^^^^^^^^^^^^

You have absolutely zero *damage* on your follower, but you have normal wear. As long as you don't allow it to get past that, you're fine.

You should replace it yourself, because VW will not replace the follower. They will only replace the cam / follower / etc once it has failed entirely.

So best bet is to just keep up with it on your own, and save yourself the headache.


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## najel (Apr 10, 2008)

OK thanks, that is kind of what I figured. I will just order one and put it in. 
Getting the banjo bolt out was by far the most "difficult" part, not really difficult, just took a lot of patience and trying to find the best angle and wrench to get in there. Getting it back in was already easier, so I think it is really not too bad next time I do it.


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## sbarrett4 (Feb 4, 2011)

I hope this is the correct place to post and that it hasn't been discussed in the 31 pages already.

I am going to check/replace the cam follower this week on my 07 Passat. Being a relative novice at repairs, I wanted to do a visual check of the area before starting to pull things apart. Got the engine cover off and found a nice Craftsman socket wrench  sitting on the engine (no damage done). I have fuel pump revision H. Does this revision mean anything in terms of when the cam follower may have been checked or replaced previously? I have had the car since Dec 2010 and put around 23K miles on it, no engine issues in that time.

Any input is appreciated.


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## randyvr6 (Aug 17, 1999)

Changed mine today for the first time in my 2007 Passat Wagon. The tips in this thread were very helpful. The banjo bolt was a challenge to access, but I finally got it out OK. 

My car has 63K miles on it and the follower looked excellent. I did decide to replace it since I was already in there, but it looked great. At least I have the piece of mind from changing it and knowing it is OK. 

I change my oil every 7500 miles primarily using "German" Castrol Syntec 0W-30. Car is stock and usually driven pretty conservatively.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

thats great oil there, so that would be a huge factor.


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## Tradewinds22 (Oct 8, 2006)

*Banjo bolt*

I'm one of the lucky ones that has a 06 Passat FSI with a fuel pump with a banjo bolt. I wanted the peace of mind of checking the cam follower but I can't access the banjo bolt. Any suggestions from those who have suceeded in doing this. 

On the second try I was successfull in removing the banjo bolt. A 3/8 universal joint on top of a 
4" extension did the trick. Minimal wear after 72,000 miles.


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## drewpal (Aug 13, 2008)

I have searched AND read ad nauseum about how to check/replace the cam follower on an '06 FSI engine. I've got a new follower on order. My car has about 45k on it. That PIA banjo bolt appears to be the major problem. I've read about the different tool/bit configurations that folks have used to get up to the bolt (8m triple square bit). I did read somewhere where a couple of guys loosened/removed the 3 bolts holding the metal fuel lines to the manifold. This allowed them just enough wiggle room to pull out the pump and remove the cam follower. Anyone else try this route? From pictures I've seen of the fuel line after the banjo bolt is removed, it appears there's a lip on the line that must seat on the pump body and I would imagine that if you booger that up at all, you're going to have leaks and then be replacing lines. I'd like to try to leave it alone and "gently" pull the pump with the lines attached. Any thoughts?? I'm going to try to find a "quality" triple square bit w/ assoc. box wrench, etc. BUT I'd like to see if option two could work as well.


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## Barn01 (Feb 26, 2011)

It's been a while since I did mine but I was able to change it in about 30min without pulling the banjo bolt. You have to bend the lines a bit but it's not a big deal. Just be careful and think it through as you go and it's pretty easy. 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## drewpal (Aug 13, 2008)

Just happened to be looking at the thread when you answered. Do you remember if you were able to clear the pump/spring assembly totally away from the manifold? That is to say enough to get the old CF out and the new one in easily? I just ran around a bit today looking for the 8m triple sq. bit. NO one HAD IT..sears, auto parts stores, etc. The only store I didn't check was NAPA. They're closed BUT they do show it on line AND it's available in their warehouse. Its as much of a pain getting the triple sq. bit as taking off the damn bolt!


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

Removing the banjo bolt isnt that bad, i can do a follower change in about 20min. Id rather tale a little more time then ruin the fuel lines that'll cost 300-400$ to replace 

Advance auto parts carries the triple squares (they may not call them that tho i dont remember) they are over in the isle with sockets and specialty tool stuff. 

Sent from my Galaxy S3


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## yowzaa (Jul 31, 2007)

The alternate name for Triple square drivers is XZN


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## Barn01 (Feb 26, 2011)

Yep, I got both my sets on amazon  
A must have for the German cars. 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## drewpal (Aug 13, 2008)

*what to do now?*

Well, I got a good 3x sq bit from NAPA and the replacement cam follower arrived from ECS. I struggled through the pulling of the fuel pump (there is no way this thing would've come out without removing the banjo bolt on mine). Having only around 45k "easy" miles, I was expecting the best. I got the WORST!. My CF was completely eroded through. I could stick my pinky through it!. The cam had what I would call light scored marks on it. I called my local VW dealer (with extended warranty info in hand) to let them know what I found. They asked if I had any fault codes or if the engine was running rough, etc. I said that I had neither. They then went on to say that unless an engine fault code illuminates, there is nothing they can or will do. I mentioned that I feel like I'm driving a ticking time bomb. I debated putting in the worn CF and waiting for the worst to happen (so the CF, Fuel pump, cam etc. would be covered under warranty) OR put in the new CF and WAIT for an issue..THEN put the worn one back in and seek warranty coverage. THIS is what I did. How should I proceed now? Am I getting too paranoid about this after reading all of the horror story threads about it? The end of the fuel pump rod (w/ spring) was worn down to one side and the cam showed light scoring. I don't want to have to break this thing down every oil change. It was a PIA. What would you guys do?? I'd like to add pics, but I can't seem to figure out how (easily). Thanks for any input.


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## drewpal (Aug 13, 2008)

*Response from VWoA*

Well I shot an email off to VWoA explaining the failed CF, worn down HPFP plunger and scored cam. I mentioned I have the worn part AND photos of worn internals. I mentioned that in a years time I was planning to pass this car onto my 16yo daughter BUT in light of the present issue, I was having second thoughts. Here's the response I got:

"Dear Mr. P.
As a fellow fan of the Golf and GTI, I’m always happy to see someone taking an interest in maintaining their car.
While we are unable to predict when a part may require replacement, we rely on our dealerships to diagnose concerns and determine when repairs are needed.
I understand your dealership advised that your car was not producing fault codes during your recent visit, and found your GTI to be operating at manufacturer’s specifications. Without a dealer diagnosing a need for a repair, I regret that we would be unable to replace any parts in your car.
As we want you and your daughter to feel confident in your vehicle, you are welcome to seek a second opinion.
If you do make another appointment to have your concerns looked at, or if you ever encounter issues in the future, let us know. We would be more than happy to take steps to ensure all of our resources are used to address your concerns.
Should you choose to visit a different dealership, you can find the information for dealers in your area at http://www.vw.com/portal/en/dealers?context=Global.
If you have any further questions or comments, you are welcome to reply to this email. You could also contact our Customer CARE Center by phone at 1-800-822-8987.
I hope your GTI, as well as any future Volkswagens you may drive, treat you well for all the years and miles to come.

Sincerely,

Tim A.

Customer CARE Advocate"

I shot back suggesting that a CF in which I could put my pinky through certainly warrants a part in need of repair and that the invitation to seek out another dealership for another opinion is akin to a patronizing "pat on the head". I will probably take the worn part and the pictures to a couple dealerships BUT I'm not optimistic. What can I do? I'll just drive the car and hope for the best...checking the CF frequently.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I would take pictures of everything before you do anything. I would then put it back together with the cam follower with the hole in it. Take it to the dealer, tell them you are concerned about possible cf failures and want to pay him to check it. Tell him whatever is found to call you before they put it back together. Checking the cam follower shouldn't be an expensive job. Dealer will find the follower with the hole in it, then VW will have the "dealer diagnosis" they require.


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## cddmkv (Sep 6, 2008)

This is what happens when you have went to long and haven't replaced it... I would advise everyone to go out in their garage right now, spend the 20 minutes and check.


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## bryanviper (Nov 14, 2011)

2007 VW GTI - Stage 1 APR & intake 

I changed my cam follower at 55,000km (About 34,000miles) Currently have about 81,000km (about 50,000miles) Difference of about 26,000km (about 16,000 miles) 

Here are the pictures... looks a little much no in terms of wear and tear on it? 


























Thanks


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## mpmark. (Mar 22, 2009)

Did mine today, 
2006 A3 with 107,000km. The cam follower looks to be original, seems pitted in the middle, lucky I changed this because failure was immanent. There is no way I would make it to the extended warranty of 192k. 

I dont understand how Audi will only do something once it fails and I'm stuck at the side of the road. 

looked pretty bad. 



















Cam look ok?


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## bsA41.8T (Feb 16, 2004)

jut changed the wife's today in her 2008 gli...follower in it has 68k on it...never been checked or changed until I just did it today...I was very happy with how it looked


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## cddmkv (Sep 6, 2008)

mpmark. said:


> Did mine today,
> 2006 A3 with 107,000km. The cam follower looks to be original, seems pitted in the middle, lucky I changed this because failure was immanent. There is no way I would make it to the extended warranty of 192k.
> 
> I dont understand how Audi will only do something once it fails and I'm stuck at the side of the road.
> ...


Cam looks similar to mine after my follower was completely blown...looks OK to me.


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## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

*How to change your cam follower inside. (Now with debate about failures and t...*

Changed mine once and wish I didn't. I'd rather get new parts when it fails. I checked it again 2 weeks ago and it's gettin there.


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## DLV (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm not sure if previous owners changed the cam follower, but given that my rig has the elusive banjo bolt, I'm going to assume that the above photo shows all of the 79,000 miles currently on my car. There was wear on the black coating. The follower was not pitted nor had it been pounded to concavedness. Yes I did change the follower, and if you have two metal fuel rails and the banjo bolt connection, grab an extra banjo bolt before you start the process. I dropped it in the engine bay and was stoked to have a spare on hand.

genuineaudiparts.com sells the banjo bolt for $5.88 part #: WHT000285C (I added the part # to this post so when I decide to have a look at the follower in the next 10 or 20k miles (or two or three years) I'll be able to reference the part # here). 12 point bits $8 for a set on Amazon.


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## bestvw (May 2, 2005)

The step by step how to change the cam follower has removed, can anyone repost the pictures again? Thank you!


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## low_passat (Sep 11, 2010)

bestvw said:


> The step by step how to change the cam follower has removed, can anyone repost the pictures again? Thank you!


This video is one of the best I've seen


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Tutti57 said:


> Changed mine once and wish I didn't. I'd rather get new parts when it fails. I checked it again 2 weeks ago and it's gettin there.


Are you hoping they collect the metal parts that might be floating around in the engine or just hope they don't end up causing problems somewhere down the line?

What's the point in going through the effort to check it and not change it if you are waiting for it to fail?


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## bestvw (May 2, 2005)

low_passat said:


> This video is one of the best I've seen


Can't find the video?


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Hi All, 

We have a new to us '08 EOS with 60K miles. It started cutting out at 5k, showing a code on the vag-com of insufficient fuel pressure. 

Took it to the dealer, asked him to check the cam follower no matter what the diagnosis is, he looked at me like I was from another planet. 

He called a few hours later, cam follower and cam are shot, our vin isn't covered under the 100K extended warranty, really!? 

Apparently the platinum warranty will cover it, I smell a fight, we will see. 

Thanks for this thread so I had a heads-up on the issue!


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## low_passat (Sep 11, 2010)

johnt26 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> We have a new to us '08 EOS with 60K miles. It started cutting out at 5k, showing a code on the vag-com of insufficient fuel pressure.
> 
> ...


 Only the early cars that had the Rev A cam are covered under the extended warranty. Since your car is an '08 it would have come from the factory with the Rev B already installed. 

So, if your warranty is going to cover it, what's to fight?


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## Elwood (Aug 10, 2001)

I have an 07 with a Rev B cam. VW sent me a letter extending the warranty to 125K (or whatever it is).


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm thinking the fight might be between VW and the warranty company (Fidelity) as far as who should cover it, I just don't want to get caught in the middle...hopefully it will go smoothly. 

Interesting that a rev B was extended... 

Another question for you all, should I be concerned about any of the pieces of the cam/follower ending up in other areas of the engine? I just did the 60K maintenance on it with an oil/filter change. 

Should the oil be changed again? Is there any VW recommended procedure to perform after the follower/cam failure? 

Thanks!


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Got the EOS back from the dealer. New cam, follower and fuel pump for $1372.00. It was covered by VW RealDriver warranty except for $50 deductible. 

The service writer told me that its an upgraded unit over the revision B that was in there, I'm not sure I believe that. 

Part numbers: 

Cam is 06F-109-101-B 
Follower is 06D-109-309-C 
Fuel Pump is 06F-127-025-K 

Sealant $97.00...really!


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## airchina83 (Jan 30, 2014)

*Thanks for the write up!*

I just replaced mine on my 2008 Jetta GLI (MKV/FSI) at 100,200 miles and it wasn't worn through yet!!! There was actuallly still some black protective coating left. I don't have a computer flash nor do I race/track the car, just spirited driving on back roads, which may be the reason for the minimal wear. The cam lobe and fuel pump side looked good as well. Great write up, thank you. I took a few pics with my camera but don't know how to post them here.


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## bryanviper (Nov 14, 2011)

airchina83 said:


> I just replaced mine on my 2008 Jetta GLI (MKV/FSI) at 100,200 miles and it wasn't worn through yet!!! There was actuallly still some black protective coating left. I don't have a computer flash nor do I race/track the car, just spirited driving on back roads, which may be the reason for the minimal wear. The cam lobe and fuel pump side looked good as well. Great write up, thank you. I took a few pics with my camera but don't know how to post them here.


You need to upload them to a server online then post the link here.
This is a free website you can do it on - imageshack.com


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## CajunSpike (Mar 11, 2009)

Bought 2008 gti(fsi) about a month ago, with 91k miles on the clock. After doing all the research, I changed the follower since I don't know the history of the car.
Didn't look that bad but definitely was time to change it.


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