# Need BT advise: APR or custom tune? COST & WHO?



## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm in the works of getting a 2nd engine for my car "AWP" my stock engine is AWP as well, so I want to build a 340-400hp engine to put in the car (the engine comes with a gt30 ballberring turbo and top mount manifold) but do I stick with the gt30 or sell it and go for the APR kit. 

Here is my dilemma do I want to buy a pre tuned kit or spend $$$ to tune a custom BT KIT 
I live in Salem Oregon and I don't know anyone who does custom PCM tuning on Audi's and I'm wondering if any one has any good advice on the route I should take.

I have tried to custom tune myself on a GM turbo but I eventually gave up and sold the car "long time ago" so given that nightmare I just want someone else to tune it.

I know there are big benefits to a custom BT tune but I can't get to crazy in the budget. so what does it Cost to get a good all weather/diving BT tune I'm not looking for a drag tune I want an everyday driver, and I want all my stock instruments to work. and no Codes.

are there custom BIN files laying around that would get me close, to shorten the time on the dyno?

because I will have 2 engines would a engine dyno be better? just take them my engine and turbo setup.


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

taverncustoms said:


> I'm in the works of getting a 2nd engine for my car "AWP" my stock engine is AWP as well, so I want to build a 340-400hp engine to put in the car (the engine comes with a gt30 ballberring turbo and top mount manifold) but do I stick with the gt30 or sell it and go for the APR kit.
> 
> Here is my dilemma do I want to buy a pre tuned kit or spend $$$ to tune a custom BT KIT
> I live in Salem Oregon and I don't know anyone who does custom PCM tuning on Audi's and I'm wondering if any one has any good advice on the route I should take.
> ...


well first of all, you should decide on where you are going with your setup. You say budget is limited so forget the APR kit, unless you find a killer deal, and again, stage 3, or 3+, isn't going to bring you where you wanna go in power, at least in stock form.

Ok tuning now. If you stay in the GT30-28 family, an off the shelf uni/eurodyne/malone tuning file will get you running, and pretty good. Their file is meant to run "at large". The specific tuning is to adapt to your particular car behavior to get the most out of your setup. 

1.Eurodyne: Maestro 7 is tha **** but if you have no one around that can tune and you really don't want to do it yourself (even if it's really not too hard to learn especially with the logging and histogram feature), forget it. Eurodyne still sells regular tunes tough. 

2.Unitronic. Good off the shelf tune, more expensive than eurodyne but not that much and runs very good on a variety of turbos (had one on my 2871R, went to a 3071R and was still running pretty good)

3. Malone Tuning, with their Flashzilla. He will send you his base tune with the Flashzilla (you dump the flash in the Ecu yourself.) You vagcom log, send him the data and he'll tune the file, send it back you you, you dump it vaglog send him back....till the file's near perfect.

From the 3 tunes I talked, I have experience with the 2 first. Get in touch with Malone tough when you're ready and know what you want/can afford.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> I'm in the works of getting a 2nd engine for my car "AWP" my stock engine is AWP as well, so I want to build a 340-400hp engine to put in the car (the engine comes with a gt30 ballberring turbo and top mount manifold) but do I stick with the gt30 or sell it and go for the APR kit.
> 
> Here is my dilemma do I want to buy a pre tuned kit or spend $$$ to tune a custom BT KIT
> I live in Salem Oregon and I don't know anyone who does custom PCM tuning on Audi's and I'm wondering if any one has any good advice on the route I should take.
> ...



You live in Salem? I live in Salem and can recommend Pat at European Car Clinic for any install work. 

As far as tuning, GIAC makes a gt30 file and Techtonics is close by in Sheridan. They have dyno access for fine tuning, the GIAC tune comes with a built in boost control and has some fine tuning options. I have also been recommended Double J in PDX for tuning/engine build work.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

budget being the cost or arp3+ kit


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> budget being the cost or arp3+ kit



If this new engine comes with a complete turbo kit, all you should need is a BT file. So cost would be $700-1000 depending on which company you went with. 

If it doesnt come with a complete turbo kit, then buying a CTS or Pagparts kit w/ software and fueling is way less than $6k(rough price of APR kit w/o intercooler).


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

omerkm1 said:


> If this new engine comes with a complete turbo kit, all you should need is a BT file. So cost would be $700-1000 depending on which company you went with.
> 
> If it doesnt come with a complete turbo kit, then buying a CTS or Pagparts kit w/ software and fueling is way less than $6k(rough price of APR kit w/o intercooler).


that sounds awesome


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

I've only owned Unitronic's BT software so I can't speak for others. What I've learned is that the tune is really matched to the injectors and not so much the car. I would speak to your tuner and find out what type of injectors the recommend running with their tune. Not only the size but also the brand- if they will sell them to you directly then take them even if it costs extra.

Tuning with Uni was similar to the situation mentioned above. The car gets flashed and if it isn't running right you need to take logs of the car, send them to Uni then they re-flash your car. At this point I essentially have a custom uni tune for 870cc injectors- it runs spectacular. When I make the switch to E85 I might get an extra ECU and load it with Maestro just to see what everyone is talking about.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

I wasnt paying attention to the OP's statement about a AWP motor swap. If he is a 180Q, then APR might be the best way to go?


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## Audiguy84 (Nov 14, 2006)

what year is the car?? speeking in terms of a narrow or wide band ecu.. you have to go wide band, I tried staying narrow on GIAC's sh!tty as tune and dumped them after 2 weeks as they said this is the best we could do, but the car was running so rich i had fuel coming out the exhaust...


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

Audiguy84 said:


> what year is the car?? speeking in terms of a narrow or wide band ecu.. you have to go wide band, I tried staying narrow on GIAC's sh!tty as tune and dumped them after 2 weeks as they said this is the best we could do, but the car was running so rich i had fuel coming out the exhaust...



thats some great info. I have a GIAC flash on my mk6 and it has been fine. Wondered about the narrowband flash on the TT. Sounds like its best to stay away from GIAC.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

AudiGuy is only talking about BT tunes.

With a stock turbo a flash on a narrowband ECU is not an issue. I had GIAC on my NB 01' 225 when I had a stock turbo- loved it.

I converted to WB when I went BT.


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## Audiguy84 (Nov 14, 2006)

ya I was talking about BT files, sorry for the mix up. but a little rant here, what really pissed me off was they didn't even give me back all my money after all the crap that I had to deal with only half..


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

Audiguy84 said:


> ya I was talking about BT files, sorry for the mix up. but a little rant here, what really pissed me off was they didn't even give me back all my money after all the crap that I had to deal with only half..



so you were using the GIAC BT file?


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## Audiguy84 (Nov 14, 2006)

ya if you go to their site - audi - tt/tt-s - 2001 225 tt at the bottom - then the file with a 3071R custom rods, 630 cc inj, bla bla... THATS MY FILE ITS FUKING JUNK


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

Audiguy84 said:


> what year is the car?? speeking in terms of a narrow or wide band ecu.. you have to go wide band, I tried staying narrow on GIAC's sh!tty as tune and dumped them after 2 weeks as they said this is the best we could do, but the car was running so rich i had fuel coming out the exhaust...


 i was under the impression that All AWP engines were wideband & VVT and mine is a 2001


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

could you just copy somones setup and copy their tune? any one running 400hp on a daily driver?


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> could you just copy somones setup and copy their tune? any one running 400hp on a daily driver?


 
what do you mean copy? you could just buy all the same stuff as someone else including the same BT file. just buy a whole kit from CTS or Pagparts.


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## Audiguy84 (Nov 14, 2006)

taverncustoms said:


> i was under the impression that All AWP engines were wideband & VVT and mine is a 2001


 No I think its 2003 when they went to wideband same for vvt. But my origanial engine was a amu code. But for sure no 2001 tt is wideband.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

A little off the software topic- what car was this AWP motor out of that you're buying? It has a top mount and a GT30 you said but does it come with any other hardware? Does your TT have Haldex?

I'm just wondering if you understand the scope of work involved.

Yep only 2003+ cars are wideband, all older cars are NB. Also like I was saying before not all setups are equal. In reality in the BT world there is not a one size fits all file and you couldn't just copy someone else's. Every set of injectors has a different response time and every car is different. It's possible that companies selling kits like CTS have a custom file Uni has made for them already tailored to the specifics of their kit, but I have no idea if this is true or not.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

DougLoBue said:


> A little off the software topic- what car was this AWP motor out of that you're buying? It has a top mount and a GT30 you said but does it come with any other hardware? Does your TT have Haldex?
> 
> I'm just wondering if you understand the scope of work involved.
> 
> Yep only 2003+ cars are wideband, all older cars are NB. Also like I was saying before not all setups are equal. In reality in the BT world there is not a one size fits all file and you couldn't just copy someone else's. Every set of injectors has a different response time and every car is different. It's possible that companies selling kits like CTS have a custom file Uni has made for them already tailored to the specifics of their kit, but I have no idea if this is true or not.


 I have spoken with Clay at CTS and also Arnold at Pagparts. I am pretty sure they are using off the shelf Uni and Eurodyne BT files. That being said, they sell turbo kits where they hand picked the parts including injectors that they know work. 

OP - If you have a 2001, most likely if it is a 225, then it is AMU. It would be a hell of a lot of work to go AWP in that particular car. Best thing to do is figure out exactly what you are working with, find a tuner that is well recommended and write them a big check. Then sit back and wait for your 400hp TT.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

omerkm1 said:


> I have spoken with Clay at CTS and also Arnold at Pagparts. I am pretty sure they are using off the shelf Uni and Eurodyne BT files. That being said, they sell turbo kits where they hand picked the parts including injectors that they know work.
> 
> OP - If you have a 2001, most likely if it is a 225, then it is AMU. It would be a hell of a lot of work to go AWP in that particular car. Best thing to do is figure out exactly what you are working with, find a tuner that is well recommended and write them a big check. Then sit back and wait for your 400hp TT.


 its a 2001 180hp AWP quattro.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> its a 2001 180hp AWP quattro.


 what color is your TT? I have seen a blue 180Q parked in my appt building lot before.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

omerkm1 said:


> what color is your TT? I have seen a blue 180Q parked in my appt building lot before.


 LOL red hey if your in SALEM get on carfreeks.net its more of a local site if your into local events


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

Audiguy84 said:


> No I think its 2003 when they went to wideband same for vvt. But my origanial engine was a amu code. But for sure no 2001 tt is wideband.


 i forget where i read that AWP is wideband & VVT ill lookf or it agin.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

yes AWP wideband and VVT 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3467969 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3467969 

i wonder if the BEA head has better ports intake & exhaust?


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

but back on subject looks like the engine im trying to get has a gt30r topmount turbo manifold and turbo only with ARP head studs and i will upgrade the pistons and rods of course. so looks like every one recomends doing homebrewed BT thanks for the input.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> but back on subject looks like the engine im trying to get has a gt30r topmount turbo manifold and turbo only with ARP head studs and i will upgrade the pistons and rods of course. so looks like every one recomends doing homebrewed BT thanks for the input.


 
I would contact Clay or Arnold at CTS or Pagparts for a turbo kit. They can help you get the turbo and manifold you want. I would start with new parts if you can afford it just so you know that everything will work together.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

omerkm1 said:


> I would contact Clay or Arnold at CTS or Pagparts for a turbo kit. They can help you get the turbo and manifold you want. I would start with new parts if you can afford it just so you know that everything will work together.


 COOL WILL DO 

I need to figure out what TB and MAF to use i would like to use a 3"in/76 to 77mm for bolth.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> COOL WILL DO
> 
> I need to figure out what TB and MAF to use i would like to use a 3"in/76 to 77mm for bolth.


 
Clay can put together the whole package for you including clutch, rods, everything! Just email him at [email protected]. You can tell him I referred you.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Most wideband tunes are MAFless FYI


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

DougLoBue said:


> Most wideband tunes are MAFless FYI


 what? fill me in im lost, how does this work? what happens to air desity readings? does it cause the car to run lean /rich depending on altitude or does it just adjust fuel trim via wideband output only. it would be cool to elimanate the MAF but would this limit my car in any way: CEL lights, cluster, ect. 

Sry last time i tryed to tune a turbo kit the car only had a IAT, BARO/MAP and a narrow band lol it turned out ok though. only 260hp though heres a vid of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJjZVLzC7AA 

not me driving thats the guy i sold it to.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> what? fill me in im lost, how does this work? what happens to air desity readings? does it cause the car to run lean /rich depending on altitude or does it just adjust fuel trim via wideband output only. it would be cool to elimanate the MAF but would this limit my car in any way: CEL lights, cluster, ect.


 
It is a option for sure, Unitronic lets you select mafless or maf options on their 630 and 830 BT tunes. Just check out the website and it explains the options.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

omerkm1 said:


> It is a option for sure, Unitronic lets you select mafless or maf options on their 630 and 830 BT tunes. Just check out the website and it explains the options.


 WOW looks good. now i have to do it lol i dont know if i would go mafless they dont realy talk about it and i want mine to be a daily driver.


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## omerkm1 (Feb 23, 2010)

taverncustoms said:


> WOW looks good. now i have to do it lol i dont know if i would go mafless they dont realy talk about it and i want mine to be a daily driver.


 
I would worry about doing the motor build at this point than what tune you will use. You will need pistons and rods I think to get the HP you want.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

omerkm1 said:


> I would worry about doing the motor build at this point than what tune you will use. You will need pistons and rods I think to get the HP you want.


 yeah agreed


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