# Walked away from my ordered beetle :(



## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

Yesterday my September 2011, Turbo Beetle s/n/s (dual leather red/black; manual transmission) arrived at Northland VW. Went and saw it and this morning went there to discuss numbers. For a dealer that I have stuck with for a year, and used their service department even though they are not up to speed on VW maintenence issues, I got the worst deal offer of my life (keep in mind this would have been my fourth beetle, all previous three were new purchases from dealers). Never thought I would walk away from my ultimate beetle, but I did. What a joke of an offer!!!! Head of sales, whom I have been in touch with this whole year, with the saga of delayed production, kept reassuring me that he will take care of me. Not only did he offere me less than carmax did on my 2012 Base Turbo Beetle, but claimed he is giving me the invoice price of the car...not true. So shocked to be treated like a woman who has no idea about cars, knowing I know all about the new beetles and prices from our previous twenty discussions! So, if you are in the Cincinnati area, and is a female, do not purchase a car from Northland VW unless you want to pay more than the price of the car.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

ltlebug, 

Are you saying that the vehicle didn't come with a sticker on it? 

I thought they all came with a price sticker on them. This is my third Beetle in about 13 years and to my recollection they all had prices clearly posted on the window: 

http://gtcarlot.com/data/Volkswagen/Beetle/2012/54417493/Window Sticker-66456129.html 

If this guy removed the sticker from the car after you ordered the car in good faith, you should contact VWOA.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

If no sticker, they are in violation of the Monroney law, all new cars and now used, must have an orgin and itemizes list on a window for public viewing, with all pricing available upon viewing a car. It is not to be removed by the dealer, prior to purchase.

go get em....grrrrr. i hate dealers.

Named after Senator Mike Monroney


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## katie78 (Oct 25, 2011)

When I was shopping for cars, I walked away from any lot that treated me differently cause I was a woman. It was way worse 10 years ago when I took my dad with me. They would only talk to my dad even after he said "she's the one buying the car."


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## Surreyboy (Jun 17, 2011)

Up here in canada many dealers throw the window stickers out or recreate their own, on a fun note just came back from vw to buy some parts and a sales guy came upto me to talk about my car,i asked when hes getting the tdis in to which he replied "oh north america wont get till 2014". Does vw really keep them in the dark this much? Or all bs?


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## Dennis R (Jul 17, 2012)

Surreyboy said:


> Does vw really keep them in the dark this much? Or all bs?


You just met up with a sales guy that is not really interested in learning about what he is selling. It doesn't say much for the dealership either because they let it happen or have no salesman education in place. Probably a combination of both. I was told a few weeks ago that VW did not make a Beetle TDI even though there was one on the lot. Call VW and tell them they need to do a better job in handing out their dealership franchises. I did. VW said they could straighten out my sales experience but I told them no thanks. If the dealer doesn't even know what they are selling, there is no way they would be able to fix it. I will find a better dealer. It is discouraging when you know more about the car than the salesman, time to walk out.


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## racer_41 (Aug 27, 2003)

Dennis R said:


> You just met up with a sales guy that is not really interested in learning about what he is selling. It doesn't say much for the dealership either because they let it happen or have no salesman education in place. Probably a combination of both. I was told a few weeks ago that VW did not make a Beetle TDI even though there was one on the lot. Call VW and tell them they need to do a better job in handing out their dealership franchises. I did. VW said they could straighten out my sales experience but I told them no thanks. If the dealer doesn't even know what they are selling, there is no way they would be able to fix it. I will find a better dealer. It is discouraging when you know more about the car than the salesman, time to walk out.


Northland VW/Porsche has been there for over 40 years. I used to live in Cinci. I think this is just another case of sales trying to make more money and they end up losing a deal.

WHY does the car buying process have to be so painful!


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

katie78 said:


> When I was shopping for cars, I walked away from any lot that treated me differently cause I was a woman. It was way worse 10 years ago when I took my dad with me. They would only talk to my dad even after he said "she's the one buying the car."


The days of price negotiating is over. Most all cars come w/prices posted. They don't make as much profit on sales as in the old days. They make more on service... 

It's too easy to configure your price online now-a-days...


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

ltlebug said:


> Yesterday my September 2011, Turbo Beetle s/n/s (dual leather red/black; manual transmission) arrived at Northland VW. Went and saw it and this morning went there to discuss numbers. For a dealer that I have stuck with for a year, and used their service department even though they are not up to speed on VW maintenence issues, I got the worst deal offer of my life (keep in mind this would have been my fourth beetle, all previous three were new purchases from dealers). Never thought I would walk away from my ultimate beetle, but I did. What a joke of an offer!!!! Head of sales, whom I have been in touch with this whole year, with the saga of delayed production, kept reassuring me that he will take care of me. Not only did he offere me less than carmax did on my 2012 Base Turbo Beetle, but claimed he is giving me the invoice price of the car...not true. So shocked to be treated like a woman who has no idea about cars, knowing I know all about the new beetles and prices from our previous twenty discussions! So, if you are in the Cincinnati area, and is a female, do not purchase a car from Northland VW unless you want to pay more than the price of the car.


Without specific numbers from the deal, It's hard to tell if they were hustling you or you were being unreasonable.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

Sorry but I guess in my state of disappointment, I was not clear in my intial post. The car did come with a sticker that showed the MSRP, and all the car features and warranties. So there was a sticker price. It was for $29,615 that included the credit for the lack of MDI cable of $175. The MSRP did not include any additional costs other than actual car, as we did not order any accessories with it. 
My comment on the invoice is the invoice that VW bills to the dealer, which ofcourse is lower than MSRP, so it is the actual cost to the dealer. My shock was due to the salesman, who is the head of sales, telling me that he is giving me a great deal and he worked really hard negotiating on my behalf with the owner on it. However, that same day I went to carmax to get an accurate estimate of my trade in, so when he told me what he was offering, it was a joke especially since he said it was the best Ii would be getting and they are offering it because of my relationship with the dealer. Then to top it off, he also tells me that he is selling it an invoice, which also was not true. So double whammy! I doubt that would have been the case if I was a male customer. That is all I am saying. It is very sad to have waited a year for my ultimate beetle and using a small local dealer thinking he would appreciate my business, and it not being the case. 
Now, I just have to wait until that configuration makes it to other dealers within a few hours of me with whom I can actually strike a deal with. I never lose hope, especially when a beetle is in the picture  I love beetles!!!!
Thank you all for your input, and those who are male, you are lucky in so many ways


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

VR6Now said:


> Without specific numbers from the deal, It's hard to tell if they were hustling you or you were being unreasonable.


Here are numbers for you:

2013 Beetle has MSRP of $29,615

2012 Beetle that I am trading in:
Turbo / Manual Transmission / Has 3 Gauge pod
Miles 10,300
Original MSRP was $24,435
I added splash guards to it. 
Balance left $24,751 (I bought it at MSRP price, because dealer in Cleveland (Ganley VW) 
gave me $3500 towards my trade in and paperwork and miscellaneous costs. So i 
financed price and sales taxes. 

Deal today was dealer was going to give me $18,400 on my 2012; sell me 2013 at invoice of $27,900. So his final number was that I finance $36,600. What do you think? Great deal right????? ...Did not even sound like a maybe deal to me.


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## Surreyboy (Jun 17, 2011)

I dont see where you being female made a difference, salesmen hardly have a good rep,they rip people off equally,ive had lots of new cars and been insulted many times by salesmen,the best was i bought a srt 10 ram, 6 months later i went to buy another truck the guy offered me less then 40% what i paid. I never ever went back to that dealer,he said oh thats just a first price,i said once you slap someone on the face dont expect them to stick around.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

Surreyboy said:


> I dont see where you being female made a difference, salesmen hardly have a good rep,they rip people off equally,ive had lots of new cars and been insulted many times by salesmen,the best was i bought a srt 10 ram, 6 months later i went to buy another truck the guy offered me less then 40% what i paid. I never ever went back to that dealer,he said oh thats just a first price,i said once you slap someone on the face dont expect them to stick around.


You have proven me wrong and happy to be a female again  I guess some dealers have sales people who see a sign on customer foreheads that say "I am a fool, take my money"


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Whether or not the salesman treated you poorly because of your gender, I do not know because I didn't witness the transaction. Everyone is prey when he/she walks onto a dealer lot but women, single moms and the elderly are the biggest targets. I know because my relatives work in the industry as auditors, so they get to see the actual deals and witness the bait and traps the sales folks lay out. So do your research, ask questions in car forums before you make a purchase. With the exception of a few types of sales work, I view the sales industry in America as an unnecessary tax. They add onto the price of the product you buy and I especially hate it when their knowledge of the product is so amateurish... it gives me the feeling that I've paid my hard earned bucks to an idiot. 

In your case, I suspect the sales dude smells emotional attachment to the product. You placed the order almost a year ago but couldn't wait and bought a '12 Beetle. Now you want to trade in your B12 for the B13 - the one you customized. That has got to say, "she's in love with this Beetle, it's her baby." And don't forget, you're buying a B13, not a B12 so they have the advantage. 

See if you can get a better deal/offer somewhere else, use that as a counter-offer. I find it easier to negotiate when you show them the offer you got from the competition. Hopefully it works. If not, wait a while and let the car sit on the lot. Of course, you run the risk it might get sold. 

Just in case you don't already know, the Invoice that's listed on the internet is a general figure thrown out to the public. It's not the actual price the dealer pays to the manufacturer. This is usually called "cost" or "dealer cost" which varies from dealer to dealer depending on many factors... volume, fleet manager relationship with the manufacturer. The larger volume dealers usually get better deals from the manufacturers. To know the actual cost of the vehicle, you need someone on the inside and high up... ie sales manager or controller. This info is generally NOT available to the salesmen. 

Good luck!


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

ltlebug said:


> Here are numbers for you:
> 
> 2013 Beetle has MSRP of $29,615
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, these are not all the numbers from the deal so you really can't see everything that is baked into it (interest rate, term of the loan in years, taxes, fees, etc). Its not good but if you are upside down on your current loan, all of that will need to be rolled over into the new loan with compound interest. Without seeing all the numbers (interest rate, fees, taxes, pay-off, loan balance), I suspect the dealer could do $1,000 to $2,000 better on the trade if its in perfect conditon and leave you with a $34,000 loan balance. This would drive you further upside down unless you're putting cash into the deal. Not much better. The dealer can't give you retail price on your trade and sell his car at wholesale pricing to you.

You have some culpability here so lets not just blame the dealer:

1) You didn't put anything down on the first purchase, got a terrible interest rate, or financed it for quite a while to owe more than the purchase price of the first beetle. If you financed for 5 of 7 years and got a medeocre interest rate, much of your payments were directed towards interest and not the principal. Why are the numbers on your trade coming up badly? How's your credit? Why did you finance such a high percentage of the purchase price? Did you negotiate for a better interest rate? Why did you take that first bad deal and complain about this bad deal?

2) You take a serious bath by trading in a vehicle in less than a year. A person looking for a 2012 beetle can save only a couple grand by buying used. Faced with the choice, I'd buy a new one and pay the extra money over a used one. Some people will and some won't.

3) You shouldn't have paid MSRP on the first Beetle....particularly if it wasn't what you really wanted. That first purchase is really jacking up the second deal. You paid MSRP on the first but now you want to negotiate? 

I'm not blaming you for your situation just as I'm not blaming the dealer. These deals have alot of moving parts and you have only shown us a few pieces. Too many to say the dealer is at fault without all the numbers of the deal (first and second) Also, I haven't seen enough to say that it was gender bias. Dealers try to hustle black, white, asian, jew, gentile, female, man, and the transgendered. There is still gender bias out there in auto sales but you haven't proven the case to me.

My advise to you would be to try to sell the first beetle to Carmax or in a private sell. Better yet, keep what you have for now because you're going to loose money regardless of how you sell/trade the first beetle.

I think its posible that you paided too much on the first deal and its costing you on the second one.


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## plex03 (Nov 10, 2011)

ltlebug said:


> It was for $29,615 that included the credit for the lack of MDI cable of $175.


So the lack of MDI Cable resulted in a $175.00 credit but the lack of gauges resulted in only a $150.00 credit?!? 

WTF?


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## gwernerjr (Dec 12, 2011)

Is it a lack of MDI cable or a lack of MDI altogether? Because the cables are under 100$ from the accessory department so I can't imagine that being accurate..


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## gwernerjr (Dec 12, 2011)

ltlebug said:


> Here are numbers for you:
> 
> 2013 Beetle has MSRP of $29,615
> 
> ...



I'm guessing you had a balance of 24751 after taxes and splash guards and paying a few months down since the msrp was only 24435. 

On another note, what is so hard to understand about this. The numbers speak for themselves. You have around 6000 in negative equity, so they are just going to roll it into the next price. It's not rocket science, and not a bad deal if youre willing to take a hit. 

The only thing is you would be more wise to sell privately or to wait it out pay it down a little and get to a more even equity point. I had my passat for 9 months and only took around a 2000 hit and rolled it into a cheaper car to get a slightly lower payment after taxes and the negative equity rolling in.

You make it as though the dealer is so wrong and bad for this, but you're being ridiculous. You're trading in an undesired knowingly problematic car with 10000 miles and expecting them to give you nearly msrp.

Maybe selling it privately will help but now that the 13's are out you'll have a much harder time getting the price you want. should've done this two months ago before the 13s were even on the website.


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## Surreyboy (Jun 17, 2011)

People also dont feel like they can negotiate when finnancing which is the worst thing you can do. In todays days of payments people figure 300 a month vs 420 is nothing. That along with interest rate is huge. If you dont neg and have a high rate you dont have any equity. If im buying outright or not i negotiate as if i am paying cash. Then i work on the rest. it only takes a an hour of back and forth nonsense before you can save yourself quite a bit.


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## puma1552 (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm going to echo a bit of what VR6 said.

I can sense a tremendous amount of financial misunderstanding and irresponsibility from the OP.

1) Why did you pay sticker price on the first Beetle just because you got what I'll assume is more than you were expecting on the trade? NEVER, EVER pay sticker unless it's some niche car that's limited in production with very limited dealer allocations like a Boss 302, etc., but even then I'd go for less if possible. You should never mention you have a trade until after the price of the new car is negotiated. The price of the new car and the trade are two completely separate negotiations. Always work them on the car price until a number is reached, and only then proceed onto the trade. There's nothing sleazy about withholding a trade until the new car price is negotiated, since they are separate dealings.

2) Why on earth would you buy a brand new Beetle right around the same time you ordered one??? This is sheer financial stupidity. I see so many people who buy new cars and turn around and trade them in less than a year later for absolutely no reason other than simple want, and virtually everyone who I see do this is upside down as it is, trades it in, gets lowballed/ripped off/negative equity rolled into the next car, and comes to post on forums about what a great deal they got. Think about what you did OP--you bought a brand new car, got ripped off in the first place by being willing to pay sticker price, financed the entire thing, are substantially upside down, and just months later you want to trade it in? Were you thinking at all? Buying a car is a major financial decision that takes considerable thought; it's pretty much a given that if you are willing to take the big depreciation hit that comes with a new car, that you sure should plan on keeping it for a good length of time, a few years at least, not months...especially just to trade it in on virtually the same exact car.

3) Now I've never ordered a car, so maybe I'm not sure how it works, but don't you generally agree on a price (and lock in current rebates + any additional at time of delivery) and get it in writing, then get credit approval before you order the car? Ordering a car, waiting a year to get it, THEN sitting down to talk price doesn't seem like a wise idea, and the dealer realizes this. They know you are emotionally vested in the car and the day you go see it sitting out front with your name on it after waiting for it for a year, you'll most likely pay whatever their terms are since you've waited so long.

I don't know, OP. It sounds more like you've just made poor and uninformed decisions and are looking for someone to blame. Is the dealer kind of crappy to deceive you and tell you they are giving it to you for invoice when they aren't? Sure. But that doesn't absolve you from a platter of poor decisions you've made. Why not try sticking with the one you have for a while? Is your 10k mile X month old car such a pile that you want to pay close to $40k for another of the same car with a couple more options? No wonder this country is flat broke, people have no sense of fiscal responsibility and the impact of financial decisions anymore.

As an aside, to the people who think negotiation can't happen anymore, enjoy paying sticker. I got my wife's '12 Beetle for less than invoice price and got the 0% financing for five years (which we intend to keep it until it's paid off, unless it turns out to be a complete lemon by the time the warranty is up). A lot of dealers are "no haggle" which IMO is kind of a cop-out to slap the consumer in the face, "our price or nothing." Well, then I'll just go to any of the neighboring dealers that will negotiate. That's exactly what I did with my wife's Beetle. Went to one dealer on Thursday, they wouldn't budge on their price which was only $1,000 off sticker and they wouldn't do 0% if I took the $1,000 off, so Saturday morning I signed papers at another dealer that would negotiate and would do 0% on the exact identical car. Money talks, it's your choice where to spend it.


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## Surreyboy (Jun 17, 2011)

I leased my sportline beetle with conncevtivity tech and sunroof and i paid what the base price was,basically got the options for free,and i am leasing,and im not even that shrewd. My wife on the other hand grew up in a family where they didnt negotiate,when the salesman says x amount she nods and signs.her brother is the same .


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

ltlebug said:


> ....Not only did he offere me less than carmax did on my 2012 Base Turbo Beetle, but claimed he is giving me the invoice price of the car...not true. So shocked to be treated like a woman who has no idea about cars, knowing I know all about the new beetles and prices from our previous twenty discussions! So, if you are in the Cincinnati area, and is a female, do not purchase a car from Northland VW unless you want to pay more than the price of the car.


It's easy to prove or disprove their offer of invoice pricing. Did you ask to see the invoice or are you just guessing the invoice from internet data? They have a copy and can provide it upon demand.

I'm starting to think you jumped down the gender bias trail prematurely. For that matter, I'm starting to think you whole sense of outrage may not be warranted.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

ltlebug said:


> that same day I went to carmax to get an accurate estimate of my trade in, so when he told me what he was offering, it was a joke especially since he said it was the best Ii would be getting and they are offering it because of my relationship with the dealer.


Well, most know that a trade in is a joke. You never really get the book value on a trade in. You would always be better off selling it yourself.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

puma1552 said:


> 2) Why on earth would you buy a brand new Beetle right around the same time you ordered one??? This is sheer financial stupidity.


SO TRUE...



puma1552 said:


> 3) Now I've never ordered a car, so maybe I'm not sure how it works, but don't you generally agree on a price


TRUE TOO...



puma1552 said:


> As an aside, to the people who think negotiation can't happen anymore, enjoy paying sticker. I got my wife's '12 Beetle for less than invoice price and got the 0% financing for five years (which we intend to keep it until it's paid off, unless it turns out to be a complete lemon by the time the warranty is up). A lot of dealers are "no haggle" which IMO is kind of a cop-out to slap the consumer in the face, "our price or nothing." Well, then I'll just go to any of the neighboring dealers that will negotiate. That's exactly what I did with my wife's Beetle. Went to one dealer on Thursday, they wouldn't budge on their price which was only $1,000 off sticker and they wouldn't do 0% if I took the $1,000 off, so Saturday morning I signed papers at another dealer that would negotiate and would do 0% on the exact identical car. Money talks, it's your choice where to spend it.


SOME TRUE, SOME NOT SO TRUE. 

If your willing to wait, travel and spend a lot of time shopping around, you may be able to save a buck or two (in your case, maybe $20 a month). In my case, it took me a while to find the one with the features and color I wanted within a reasonable distance from my location. The dealer sold it to me for the sticker/same price as on the car-builder on VW.com and delivered it to my work. I think I'm paying somewhere around 1 or 2 percent interest. No big deal to me.


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## cincyvwdealer (Aug 15, 2003)

*Invoice info*

My name is Tim Marsh, and I am the owner of Northland VW. I am not one to bring things like this out to the public but when someone makes comments about my employees, I need to show my side of the deal. If you are upset with a trade value or a sale price I have no problem but an accusation towards one of my employees is not needed. I value you as a customer and want to keep you coming back for years to come.

The MSRP of the 2013 Beetle is $29,615
The invoice on the 2013 Beetle is $28,462
We agreed to sell a new 2013 Beetle for $27,900 ($562 below invoice on a car that has been here for 1 day)
I think if you ask anyone; this is a very fair price on a 2013 when there are still a lot of 2012's on the lot. 

I know at first look the $18,400 trade value sounds low but if we are able to sell that car new right now with the current incentive for under $21,000; What would someone be willing to buy a used one for with 10,000 miles. Is a thousand enough to peak someones interest to buy the used one with miles. (probably needs to be a little bit more than that.) I helped work the numbers on this car and feel we were working for you. I don't see how these numbers were taking advantage of you being a female. If you would like to reconsider, I would still honor these numbers.




> but claimed he is giving me the invoice price of the car...not true. So shocked to be treated like a woman who has no idea about cars, knowing I know all about the new beetles and prices from our previous twenty discussions! So, if you are in the Cincinnati area, and is a female, do not purchase a car from Northland VW unless you want to pay more than the price of the car. .





> Deal today was dealer was going to give me $18,400 on my 2012; sell me 2013 at invoice of $27,900


Below is the invoice info for this Beetle:

2DR BEETLE 2.0T SR/FND/NV 6-SPD MAN 5C13Y2 27,835.00 28,995.00
Tornado Red Exterior G2G2 0.00 0.00
Black/Red Leather Interior YM 0.00 0.00
OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT:
MDI Credit UF0 168.00- 175.00-
DESTINATION CHARGE 795.00 795.00
VOLKSWAGEN GROUP OF AMERICA, INC.
2200 FERDINAND PORSCHE DRIVE
HERNDON, VIRGINIA 20171
VEHICLE INVOICE
DEALER BANK/FINANCE CO.:
Volkswagen Credit, Inc.
3800 Hamlin Road
Auburn Hills MI 48326
SOLD TO DEALER NO.: E00403189
Northland Volkswagen
3813 Montgomery Road
CINCINNATI OH 45212
US
INVOICE NO: 7404139440
INVOICE DATE: 08/10/2012
(MM/DD/YY)
DESCRIPTION MODEL/ INVOICE AMOUNT MSRP
OPTION
VIN: 3VW4A7AT2DM603242
ENGINE NO.: CBF 127117
PRODUCTION DATE: JUL.2012
COMMISSION NO.: L95170
TOTAL 28,462.00 29,615.00
PAGE NO.: 1
Prices illustrated above are subject to change prior to drafting and final shipment


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## airman401 (Sep 25, 2011)

Good on you Tim. Very straight forward and respectfull answer.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


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## puma1552 (Jul 6, 2012)

the beet said:


> SOME TRUE, SOME NOT SO TRUE.
> 
> If your willing to wait, travel and spend a lot of time shopping around, you may be able to save a buck or two (in your case, maybe $20 a month). In my case, it took me a while to find the one with the features and color I wanted within a reasonable distance from my location. The dealer sold it to me for the sticker/same price as on the car-builder on VW.com and delivered it to my work. I think I'm paying somewhere around 1 or 2 percent interest. No big deal to me.


Closer to $30 a month, and that's at zero percent; would be more if I were paying interest on the loan. I also didn't have to wait but 36 hours to go to another dealer; I asked what they would do on it, they asked what I wanted to pay, I gave him a number and within 10 minutes there was a counter offer below invoice and much closer to my number than sticker so I took it. Icould've bounced back and forth for a couple hours to get a better deal but I was already getting a good deal, took no time at all.

Different strokes for different folks but I'll never pay sticker for a car.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

I still say the dealer is sitting on a little money on the trade but no more than what others do. He might be right based upon local demand for Beetles.

All that being said, I think we've heard enough and the OP needs to reel it in a bit. Their expectations were not realistic. When the shock of what the numbers look like hit, it was time to take it out on the messenger. 

There is no way you were not going to take some kind of significant hit selling or trading in a vehicle with that much negative equity. You weren't taken advantage of in this situation. The first deal may really be your problem and there's more of your handy work there than the dealer who sold it to you. It sounds like you didn't do your homework on either of these deals before you walked into the dealership and paid too much, financed too much, and may be paying too much on the cost of money.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

VR6Now said:


> I still say the dealer is sitting on a little money on the trade but no more than what others do. He might be right based upon local demand for Beetles.


I agree w/Tim. Way to speak up Tim. :thumbup:

Shouldn't they be able to make a profit? That's how things work... 

I certainly will not work for free... :what:


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## BrownBetty2012 (May 24, 2012)

The last 2 cars that I bought were negotiated over the internet and the phone. I'll never go to a dealership to negotiate prices again. My husband researched the car, even paid about $30 to get specific info on the car (hidden prices, what dealers don't tell you about the incentives they get, etc.), sent an e-mail on a Thursday to several dealers specifying exactly what we were looking for (and also letting them know that we know about any incentives and costs from the info pack we got) and told them that we were buying by Sunday from whoever gives us the best deal. 
The next 2-3 days are constant e-mails and phonecalls from dealers trying to beat each others "deals", but by Sunday, we spend no more than 30 minutes at the dealership, enough time to check the car out and sign the papers. It's a VERY stress free and easy way to do it!


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

BrownBetty2012 said:


> The last 2 cars that I bought were negotiated over the internet and the phone. I'll never go to a dealership to negotiate prices again. My husband researched the car, even paid about $30 to get specific info on the car (hidden prices, what dealers don't tell you about the incentives they get, etc.), sent an e-mail on a Thursday to several dealers specifying exactly what we were looking for (and also letting them know that we know about any incentives and costs from the info pack we got) and told them that we were buying by Sunday from whoever gives us the best deal.
> The next 2-3 days are constant e-mails and phonecalls from dealers trying to beat each others "deals", but by Sunday, we spend no more than 30 minutes at the dealership, enough time to check the car out and sign the papers. It's a VERY stress free and easy way to do it!


Thank u that is what I am doing. I had a crooked dealer, they fudged my paperwork and lied. I was able to recoup some, but not all. I am going to report my dealer to the BBB soon.


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## BrownBetty2012 (May 24, 2012)

^^^You won't be sorry you did!! We did this on a 2009 Honda Accord and my Beetle. We sold the Accord back to the dealer and then negotiated for the Beetle. 
Just make sure you do your research first......the info packet my husband sent for is called "Fighting Chance". It'll give you tons of info any car you're intersted in. Also how to do the e-mail/phonecall?fax negotiating, a current incentive/holdback report for the car, dealing with a trade in and specific info on the maker. 
That Sunday morning, we were down to 2 dealers who were beating each others deals by $100 until we had them both saying that was as low as they could go, which they ended up at the same price. We went with the dealer with the better "hospitallity" deal (free oil changes and inspections for life, etc.). It's definitely the easiest way to get the best deal with no hassels!!


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

the beet said:


> I agree w/Tim. Way to speak up Tim. :thumbup:
> 
> Shouldn't they be able to make a profit? That's how things work...
> 
> I certainly will not work for free... :what:


Thanks for teaching me about how the world works. You're so smart. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Like I said before, the trade in value is still low and most dealers low ball trade in value anywhere from $500-$2000. Thus, instead of having $1000-$2000 gross profit allotted in trade for a car in this price bracket, they have have that amount plus what they low balled the customer.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

cincyvwdealer said:


> My name is Tim Marsh, and I am the owner of Northland VW. I am not one to bring things like this out to the public but when someone makes comments about my employees, I need to show my side of the deal. If you are upset with a trade value or a sale price I have no problem but an accusation towards one of my employees is not needed. I value you as a customer and want to keep you coming back for years to come.
> 
> The MSRP of the 2013 Beetle is $29,615
> The invoice on the 2013 Beetle is $28,462
> ...


No, I will not be reconsidering these numbers. For those mentioning interest rates and financing, does not apply here, since we did not consider down payment and my credit score and what interest I would have. I went to the dealer, where for the past six months, since I bought by base turbo, I was assured they would work with me on making a deal for my ordered beetle. So on Thursday, I took base beetle to the dealer to be evaluated, waited for 30 minutes, when the sales manager comes back and tells me the best they can do is a total cost of $36,000. I need to pay that to trade in base beetle and get the 2013. Again, no discussion about how that will be paid or financing or anything. 
I was not expecting to get MSRP for my trade in, but expected around $20,000, which yes is few hundred above the average depreciation on the first year, which is 20%. I expected to get similar to an employee discount for my 2013, which I have gotten before from a dealer I did not even have any previous business with. So, no I think for a dealer who gets my service business and loyalty and patience, I was not being unrealistic. I know about depreciation and I know about trade-in, but asking for about $20,000 for my trade in and discount on the 2013, is not unreasonable for a total cost of of $32,000 for a loyal customer. 
Yes, I do think that me being a female, emotional about car, and love for the car, where I have waited a year and kept my order in, did affect the deal.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

I think the OP is about $2,000 worth of unreasonable. Go and shop those numbers to all the dealers in your area and see what you get. I suspect you'll get zero bites with those munbers.

The best out the door you're looking at is $34,000 unless the dealer is willing to make no money on the sell and no money on the trade. Nobody's business is worth that.

Dealers usually don't combine offers such as supplier/employee discounts + invoice pricing unless its a slow seller they are trying to get off the books. Don't expect something like that on a loaded Beetle. That's fantasy.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

ltlebug said:


> No, I will not be reconsidering these numbers. For those mentioning interest rates and financing, does not apply here, since we did not consider down payment and my credit score and what interest I would have. I went to the dealer, where for the past six months, since I bought by base turbo, I was assured they would work with me on making a deal for my ordered beetle. So on Thursday, I took base beetle to the dealer to be evaluated, waited for 30 minutes, when the sales manager comes back and tells me the best they can do is a total cost of $36,000. I need to pay that to trade in base beetle and get the 2013. Again, no discussion about how that will be paid or financing or anything.
> I was not expecting to get MSRP for my trade in, but expected around $20,000, which yes is few hundred above the average depreciation on the first year, which is 20%. I expected to get similar to an employee discount for my 2013, which I have gotten before from a dealer I did not even have any previous business with. So, no I think for a dealer who gets my service business and loyalty and patience, I was not being unrealistic. I know about depreciation and I know about trade-in, but asking for about $20,000 for my trade in and discount on the 2013, is not unreasonable for a total cost of of $32,000 for a loyal customer.
> Yes, I do think that me being a female, emotional about car, and love for the car, where I have waited a year and kept my order in, did affect the deal.


And you made that counter-offer to the dealer or just walked away mad, post trash on the internet and assumed gender bias? All dealers offer deals advantagous to their business. If you are a roll-over, you'll take the deal or walk away mad. If you know how to negotiate, you'll make a counter-offer based what is possible.

The interest rate paid on the first car along with the down payment are important in determining the amount of negative equity you have. Having negative equity can affect your financing on the second car. The dealer may have to use a bank that is willing to take on the additional risk of negative equity since the car is not worth the loan. You will pay more for the risk level. You're naive if you don't understand that.

You and the dealer are $4,000 apart from a deal and thats more than can be bridged in this deal. Walk away and go to another dealer. I think you'll find that the 4k you're looking for isn't going to happen particularly if you intend to bad mouth them instead of negotiating. I don't think you'll get everything you asked for. If I were the dealer, I'd cut my losses and accept your business as lost.


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## gwernerjr (Dec 12, 2011)

VR6Now said:


> And you made that counter-offer to the dealer or just walked away mad, post trash on the internet and assumed gender bias? All dealers offer deals advantagous to their business. If you are a roll-over, you'll take the deal or walk away mad. If you know how to negotiate, you'll make a counter-offer based what is possible.
> 
> The interest rate paid on the first car along with the down payment are important in determining the amount of negative equity you have. Having negative equity can affect your financing on the second car. The dealer may have to use a bank that is willing to take on the additional risk of negative equity since the car is not worth the loan. You will pay more for the risk level. You're naive if you don't understand that.
> 
> You and the dealer are $4,000 apart from a deal and thats more than can be bridged in this deal. Walk away and go to another dealer. I think you'll find that the 4k you're looking for isn't going to happen particularly if you intend to bad mouth them instead of negotiating. I don't think you'll get everything you asked for. If I were the dealer, I'd cut my losses and accept your business as lost.



I totally agree with this! Well said. Eventually a dealer should not have to take the deal. People say you need to keep customers coming back, meanwhile so many times customers rape the dealers over and over and its not even worth it. What are they going to pass along one friend's sale who rapes the dealer too. I know its a rough economy and the customer's always right, but for once see it from the dealer network aspect. They need to make money somewhere or else why even sell us the cars.


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## puma1552 (Jul 6, 2012)

I still fail to understand why the hell the OP thought buying a brand new Beetle in the interim until the other virtually exact same ordered one came in was a good idea, and why the OP didn't agree on a price and terms and sign papers BEFORE ordering the car?

Sorry OP, but this is plenty your fault. You've made numerous poor decisions and mistakes in this process. The dealer isn't much better, trying to play to heart strings banking on you taking it on their terms the day it comes in, as IMO the dealer too should've made sure that terms were agreed on prior to ordering the car (and given at least a rough ballpark projected trade-in for when the new car came in).

In my opinion, both the OP and the dealer did poor business and are both at fault, but most of it lies on the OP's side.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

In defense of the dealer (never thought I'd say that), they probably knew at the time that they could sell that combo so there's no/low risk in the order. Secondly, the trade may or may not have existed way back when the order was placed. Who would've thought that the OP would present then an upside down trade.

The dealer will be fine. They've lost nothing. The OP will be fine once they check out what they are asking for and realize that its not practical.


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## sethdude (Jun 27, 2012)

OP, you are being extremely unreasonable here. I am an ex-VW salesman, and help everyone I know buy cars. I know how a deal works, and what the numbers mean:

1. You have been extremely fiscally irresponsible in your past deals, leading to an egregious amount of negative equity which you will still have to pay your financiers. You did that, not the dealership.

2. Expecting far more for your trade than it's worth is a show of poor judgement. I have seen many used B12 Turbos on the market for around $20k, many of which are certified and have fewer miles than yours. Certification costs the dealership money, so you have to take that into account to what they're asking for it when they sell it on. You are not entitled to their profit. See link for example of lower mileage Certified B12 Turbo retail value: http://tinyurl.com/c429c5t

3. The dealer has been absolutely transparent with you, and you are accusing them of being shady. There's a fair number of people (OP included) who think the dealership is sitting on $10k profit in every $30k car. Guess what? They're not. Most new cars have about $2,500 max profit margin between invoice and MSRP. That's your money to play with. Just because the dealership has "holdback" (money from the manufacturer, essentially to inspire the dealership to sell more of a particular model) doesn't mean you're entitled to it. It's their incentive. They give you a separate incentive.

The deal they are offering you is pretty good. The numbers are terrible because of your actions, not the dealerships. Honestly, you should save some face, apologize to Tim (who has my respect for addressing your issues professionally, despite you acting like a brat about it and trying to mar his reputation), and just admit that you can't afford the car at this time due to your poor choices. 

Ultimately, any dollar amount under MSRP is a fair deal, and you definitely got a good one. I'm not sure why you expected to get so much more for your base Turbo, because the $4k difference you specify would require your trade-in with 10k miles to be worth approximately what is was new. Which makes little sense. Always figure average depreciation to be $2k for the car being used, and an additional $0.75 per mile for the first year. It starts slowing down past that.

Sorry you have made poor choices with your past car purchases that are affecting your current dreams. It is unfortunate, but hopefully you'll learn from it and only trade-up when you have equity in the future.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal." 

For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal. 

Another clarification that VR6Now is not getting, there was no discussion of finance or down payment...for all you know, I could pay it all in cash...I am a lawyer after all. 

For those of you who cannot do math, here is the math of the dealer's offer of $36,600 based on the numbers he just posted to you all as being fair, his nickname here is "Cincyvwdealer". 
Owner is selling 2013 for $27,900
Offered me $18,400 for my 2012 (I still owe $24571, so will be carrying $6,171) 
So total cost right now is $34,071. 
Sales tax for me is 6.25% So sales tax of $27,900 is $1,743.75 
So total so far is $27,900 + $6,171 + 1743.75 = $35,814.75

Dealer's Offer was $36,600 and change. The dealer did not show me the invoice and I did not take the paperwork of his offer with me. My disappointment and shock is the claim "this is a great deal" and their insistence we are working with you. Sorry but that is not a "great deal". 

Just for you VR6Now, yes, I will be going to other dealers in a couple of months when the configuration I want will be at several dealers. I will be sending you a private message of how deals are struck in a few months


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## sethdude (Jun 27, 2012)

ltlebug said:


> Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal."
> 
> For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal.
> 
> ...


You are not including destination fee and documentation fee, which varies from state to state. And it has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has everything to do with poor decision making skills. My wife is a woman, and would have never, ever gotten into your situation, because she knows how car financing works.


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## sethdude (Jun 27, 2012)

Documentation fee in Ohio is $250. Add that to $750 destination charge, and you have $1000. 

$35,814 + $1000 = $36,814.

$36,600 and change < $36,814.

So you are still getting a good deal.

You need to realize, when you defame a reputable business on the internet, you imperil the livelihood of every employee of that dealership. Before you cry foul and hurt honest Americans trying to eke out a living in a difficult economy, why don't you try to know what you are talking about? Your accusation that people try to take advantage of you because you are a woman is off base. People try to take advantage of you because you are easily misled and like to play the victim. And in this case, nobody is taking advantage of you. You are being very unrealistic with your expectations, and reality hurts.

I just realized, for purposes of getting you financed (because few banks will finance a deal this far upside-down, they're probably having to write the deal at MSRP, and showing more for your trade on the financial paperwork. You may be paying taxes on $29,615 as a result.

Did you even bother asking why the discrepancy?


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

sethdude said:


> Documentation fee in Ohio is $250. Add that to $750 destination charge, and you have $1000.
> 
> $35,814 + $1000 = $36,814.
> 
> ...


The MSRP price of $29,615 included the destination fee of $770. The dealer is selling it to me according to him below invoice at $27,900. So, please you should check the information before claiming I do not know what I am talking about, becasue the destination cost is included in the cost. Its hilarious, you do not even know me, yet you judge and say I am playing victim. This is not about playing victim, this is about me feeling played like a fool, where the prices were not negotiated until I saw the car and for months was told they will work with me knowing I have a 2012 to trade, knowing the miles on it since they service it, and knowing what i owe since I have been telling the sales manager. 
Also, you may want to check the definition of "defame" before you claim that is what I am doing. It is defined as "To damage the reputation, character, or good name of by *slander or libel*" Me telling my disappointment of not getting the "great deal" the dealer is giving me and giving the accurate numbers he provided me is definitely not slander or libel. The turth is a defense to everything. Again, as repetition seems to be required here, the dealer's deal is a joke in my opinion.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

ltlebug said:


> Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal."
> 
> For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal.
> 
> ...


You're actually proving my point. Your gender isn't you problem, you are. Being a lawyer doesn't give you special license to know all things autumotive nor does it mean you have rational expectations. Being a woman doesn't mean you can't cut a mean deal. I don't really see what your profession or gender has to do with it. They are issues because you make them so. Every dealer I've dealt with has offered me something less than I wanted. I negotiated and if I didn't get what I wanted and it was fair, I walked. No need to blame it on my race and post it on the internet. If I knew I had a workable deal, the original dealer I spoke with would take it eventually. Generally, I don't have to walk because a few back and forths to the sales office and its done.

You're a lawyer. Ask yourself a question. Could you assert gender bias with the evidence you brought forth in this forum. If you are any good as a lawyer, you know the answer is no.


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## sethdude (Jun 27, 2012)

Again, you accused them, publishing said accusation online, of treating you poorly because you are a woman. 

libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation. 

You really should stop while you are ahead. 

Again, did you ask Tim why the discrepancy in math? Or are you too proud to figure it out and you'd rather be huffy and ridiculous about it.


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## puma1552 (Jul 6, 2012)

Yeah, OP, you're the victim.

Only an idiot would buy a brand new car FIVE MONTHS after ordering one of the exact same thing.

You may be a windbag lawyer (of which the world is saturated), but you absolutely suck at math and common sense.

Fiscal idiocy, plain and simple.

But you're a woman, so boo ****ing hoo. No surprise you can't explain why you would make such a stupid decision to buy a new car after you ordered it, and a whole five months into the order which makes you look even more unintelligent. It would look better if you had ordered and bought the two cars on the same day, but waiting five months into it and then going "Gee, hurrr, I should buy a brand new, nearly identical car and then try to trade it in 2-3 months when the '13s are out and dealers can't unload their new '12s as it is!"

How dense are you? I mean really, just goes to show that education /= common sense or intelligence. More money than brains, I guess, and now you are crying foul about the $40k Beetle situation you put yourself into.

Zero pity from me, the more you post, the worse you look.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

sethdude said:


> Again, did you ask Tim why the discrepancy in math? Or are you too proud to figure it out and you'd rather be huffy and ridiculous about it.


No, because Tim never came out. I went to the dealer, and one salesperson took the key to my 2012 got numbers from it, then the used car manager went and looked at it. Then he went inside a no window conference/office area, came out. A few minutes later, the sales manager came out and told me we are working on the deal right now. Twenty minutes later came back telling me are still working on the deal. Then ten minutes later, came out and showed me numbers. Told him not acceptable, told me he feels rotten about it, and told him my counter and asked doesnt that sound reasonable, he was quite. He told me he tried but that this is the best they will offer. They gave me my $500 I had deposited back in September 2011 for this order and that was that. So, no Tim never came out.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

puma1552 said:


> Yeah, OP, you're the victim.
> 
> Only an idiot would buy a brand new car FIVE MONTHS after ordering one of the exact same thing.
> 
> ...


The more you post, the more entertaining this is. It is nice to have laughter result from this experience. Thank you  FYI, my 2012 is a base turbo, the 2013, which was originally supposed to be a 2012, is a fully loaded beetle.


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## puma1552 (Jul 6, 2012)

Yeah, you still can't provide answers to the first two questions many posts ago:

1) Why did you buy a brand new identical (turbo Beetle is turbo Beetle) car when you had one on order already, especially when you were planning on trading it in after a mere month or two and take a colossal bath on it?

2) Why didn't you agree on a price for the new car before you ordered it?

The answer to both is fiscal stupidity, which is why you won't answer either.

lol.

Honestly this thread should just be locked, the OP has shown us that she has no business buying new cars and no semblance of financial responsibility, and she's trying to make the dealer look bad for it. Dealers are sleazy, but having to deal with stupidity like this day in day out from 4/5 customers kind of makes me see why. If people are that dense, may as well take 'em for a ride.


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## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Lol OP what do you practice? You sound like a wanker.


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

puma1552 said:


> Yeah, you still can't provide answers to the first two questions many posts ago:
> 
> 1) Why did you buy a brand new identical (turbo Beetle is turbo Beetle) car when you had one on order already, especially when you were planning on trading it in after a mere month or two and take a colossal bath on it?
> 
> ...


Again, thank you for the entertaintment  it is stupid of me to ask for higher value for my trade, yet that is exactly what you wanted for yours as you posted in this thread that you created:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...iving-us-a-good-price&p=78126977#post78126977


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## ltlebug (Jan 12, 2012)

Aonarch said:


> Lol OP what do you practice? You sound like a wanker.


This is actually funny coming from you


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Holy Baby Jesus!!!

What happened to all the window threads??? 

And I think we can agree VW is a cheapskate for not putting the Independent Rear Suspension in ALL Beetles. 

Herr Piech... you must pimp ALL the Beetles with IRS.


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## sethdude (Jun 27, 2012)

Ok, so the deal didn't get done at the lowball, unrealistic price you wanted it to. It doesn't give you the right to libel the dealership the way you did. Especially when they refunded your deposit. 

You need to accept ownership for your poor decision making, apologize to Tim, retract you libelous statement, and move on. Hopefully, you've learned something through all of this, though by your series of replies to others, I doubt you have. 

I'm sure Tim will have no trouble at all finding a buyer for that car at a realistic price.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Locking this up. Let me remind everyone here that name calling can get you banned. From the forum rules:

*No flaming of other members to incite or perpetuate a conflict or argument. ANY personal attacks or name calling will get you banned*


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