# Gruven Control Arms, anyone experience this....



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

The wife has all 4 adjustable control arms on her car. Took them off for the winter cleaned them up.

Installed last week and noticed that there is a good .030" of play in the ball joint it self. 

Took it to get it aligned and he said it couldn't be done as there was too much play in the control arms.

I am going to order some from QA1, but was just curious if anyone else had this issue or if I am alone on it.


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

I had the same issue.

I ordered some fully booted ones from Gruven for ~35$. When i took the old one off to replace i noticed that it was rotated on the 'ball' portion so it was actually off the edge. 

What happened was it rotated too much on the rounded portion and went over the edge and got stuck there, It took quite a bit of effort to get it rotated back onto the spherical part but it could be done.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

I am not really sure what you are saying.

I have slop inbetween the ball of the rod end and the rod end body.

I got some QA1 parts on the way. Will updated.


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

Its really hard to describe so ill just show you. 

This is the one I removed from my drivers side. The 'ball' rotated so it was out of the housing and got stuck there. This gives it play where it can move back and forth in the holder.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Hmmm I feel like I dont even want to look at mine now:laugh:. Then again with the camber we have to run when we go low how bad can that amount of play really be?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> Hmmm I feel like I dont even want to look at mine now:laugh:. Then again with the camber we have to run when we go low how bad can that amount of play really be?


The play is worse than the camber, its similar to having a bad ball joint. The tire can wiggle in and out while you are driving. Causing stupid loads in strange directions on the tire.

My alignment guy said he couldn't even do the alignment do to all the slop.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

So now whats your plan?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> So now whats your plan?


http://qa1.thomasnet.com/item/inch-rod-ends/xm-rod-ends/pn-5753?&bc=1002|3001275|1051|3001120


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)




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## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

Does gruven parts know that their stuff is going bad? I would give them a call! I would be pissed


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> Does gruven parts know that their stuff is going bad? I would give them a call! I would be pissed


I have had a talked to a few companies on here due to the issues on the street. Without some sort of seals these bearings will fail pretty regularly. These are designed for the racing environment. Many people had tons of problems back in the day when companies came out with spherical bearings for the rear suspension of the MK2/MK3's in the late 90's and early 2000's. They would last about 3-10,000 miles depending on the moisture/sand exposure of the roadways that they were used on. 

I run CPT ones with seals, they are more money but you get what you pay for in the end. They have been on the car for over 15k without any problems or play.

If it was designed and tested on the track, it does not always mean that it will work on the street. You can ask any automotive engineer that has done cold/hot weather testing on components as well as general neglect. 

:beer:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

I called and they offered to sell me new ones. I passed and got some from QA1 street line. 

They aren't sealed but QA1 recommended them


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## 313TT (Oct 14, 2010)

Wow thanks for the info, I was gonna pull the trigger on some gruven control arms. But since you put it that way, guess I'll ride cambered for a wee bit more, till I find what works :banghead:


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

I did talk with Gruven about them they mentioned I could send the old ones back to get replaced but I opted to upgrade to the fully sealed ones. I'm running them now on my control arms with no problems. 

You can also order the control arms from Gruven with the sealed joints already on them.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Did they offer a discount? Or did they want you to pay full price?


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

I paid 30$ for 2 new sealed joints which included shipping. I don't know what to compare that to because I don't know what the QA1's go for.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

thommorud said:


> I paid 30$ for 2 new sealed joints which included shipping. I don't know what to compare that to because I don't know what the QA1's go for.


That's not bad. I doubt mine will be bad tho since I only put about 2k miles on the car since they were done


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## Cabbet (Nov 25, 2007)

I have really bad play in my gruvenparts heim joints....with the car in the ground if i grip the top of the rear tire and push/pull it continuously there is a good 5mm of play that can be seen and you hear the loud "tok" tok" tok".

I found that by greasing it every week they aren't as bad but I'm really gonna have to look into getting sealed joints because as stated above it feels like you have loose ball joints in the rear and takes away from the car's "tight" feeling


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Like someone mentioned before, spherical bearings aren't really suited for real street duties, even when the heim joints are sealed. 

These things really have a short life compared to the old proven bushing on suspension parts. I have opted against them on my street/track car because of how often they need attention on my race cars. It would've been silly of me to use sphericals on the streets when I know that the better built ones, last about a few thousand miles of hard use before developing some play.

I don't know why you guys get frustrated when you should have done some homework on the product beforehand. Installation also play a big role on how well they last, you'd be surprised by how often arms with sphericals ends get mounted (by shops) without full range of lateral play at both ends. If you are not able to fully move the arm freely in both directions there's some binding that will kill them in a hurry. 

Personally I think the offset bushing solution is better suited for fixing camber/toe issues on street cars. It's only my opinion based on my personal experience with them, and some people have said that sphericals work for them in the streets.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I like the rubber boot on the Blue Water Performance arms that covers the helm joints. :thumbup:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Hmmm I did do research, but nowhere did I come across the joints not being suitable for daily use? Well are there other suitable arms, or what are your suggestions?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> Hmmm I did do research, but nowhere did I come across the joints not being suitable for daily use? Well are there other suitable arms, or what are your suggestions?


Like I said, it's only my opinion in the limited expertise I have dealing with them on race cars. They do have sleeves that will help with protecting the bearings against the elements(dirt, water). However, nothing can be done about the limited life expectancy, especially on a DD. 

While spherical ends provides more positive motion, with less friction vs the common rubber/poly/delrin in the single axis the arms need to work(up and down). They also take a lot more beating from harmonic vibrations in various axis that are normally isolated and restricted by the conventional OEM type arms. Again, they will work but expect to have to deal with a lot of joints replacing, like I have to do on the race cars and IMO that's a pain to deal with on a DD. 

I don't really have replacement suggestions except using stock arms with offset bushings. In my car, I have bottom stock arms that I shortened to put the alignment back to my specs. I don't know why there is nobody making shorter OEM type arms that are sold for a few preset amount of drop( you could have 1-2-3" drop arms that covers lowered to slammed cars). Maybe Madmax drop arms are in the future.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

The arms are a boxed section in the middle? If so, couldn't the arms be cut, and a slotted and grooved section added to add adjustability in preset lengths, then welded back up? Just a thought along the lines of what you are suggesting.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> The arms are a boxed section in the middle? If so, couldn't the arms be cut, and a slotted and grooved section added to add adjustability in preset lengths, then welded back up? Just a thought along the lines of what you are suggesting.


That would definitely work too and I had thought about making mine adjustable. However, I would not feel confident having an arm welded in the middle, except in my car, because I don't know for sure how the loads get distributed through the arms(more along your area of expertise). That would also basically make it another off road only part not really suited for daily duties(if not tested for a long time).

I think that one piece solid tubes, cut to length with welded OEM type ends with poly for 1-2-3 inch drops would be a much more bullet proof solution.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

My next question is how would you calculate the length needed? You would need to measure it at each height would you not?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> That would definitely work too and I had thought about making mine adjustable. However, I would not feel confident having an arm welded in the middle, except in my car, because I don't know for sure how the loads get distributed through the arms(more along your area of expertise). That would also basically make it another off road only part not really suited for daily duties(if not tested for a long time).
> 
> I think that one piece solid tubes, cut to length with welded OEM type ends with poly for 1-2-3 inch drops would be a much more bullet proof solution.


Yeah, it would require some FEA/ANSYS for sure to find the loads (after calculating weight transfer and corner loads during dynamic cornering, as well as some suspension modeling in there too, ie would have been a great vehicle dynamics project lol), then some simple calcs to find weld dimensions. And if you wanted to market them, then some aging testing. All more than any of us is going to do. :laugh:



PLAYED TT said:


> My next question is how would you calculate the length needed? You would need to measure it at each height would you not?


Yeah, you'd have to measure the camber at each drop with stock arms, use the desired camber to find the difference, and some simple trig to find the right lengths after measuring distances of mounting points. What's the history of these adjustable arms breaking? Wasn't it along the lines of a threaded section added towards one end of the arm with regular and reverse threads on each end? I thought I remember reading about the arms breaking with the adjustable section being towards one end of the arm.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

The forge ones were the ones that were breaking I believe. Never heard of these breaking....that's why I got them


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## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

I was going to ask about the Forge ones - from pictures, it looks like they use regular bushings rather than spherical. I was wondering whether it might be reasonable to expect them to hold up better over time as a result, but it sounds like maybe the failure point just moves elsewhere... Does anyone make a Forge-style control arm with the adjustment toward one end, rather than right in the middle?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

ttwsm said:


> I was going to ask about the Forge ones - from pictures, it looks like they use regular bushings rather than spherical. I was wondering whether it might be reasonable to expect them to hold up better over time as a result, but it sounds like maybe the failure point just moves elsewhere... Does anyone make a Forge-style control arm with the adjustment toward one end, rather than right in the middle?


Nobody makes one, I am going to prototype a set on my car and maybe make a few depending on demand. Real heavy duty, solid one piece shorter bars. I'll make them for one-two and three inches of drop with no adjustments(only real way at this point to avoid weak points).


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> Nobody makes one, I am going to prototype a set on my car and maybe make a few depending on demand. Real heavy duty, solid one piece shorter bars. I'll make them for one-two and three inches of drop with no adjustments(only real way at this point to avoid weak points).


:beer:

I can give you some machining and CAD support if you need it Max. I am heading down to Limerock in two weeks to run for the weekend to pound the crap out of my TT :laugh:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> :beer:
> 
> I can give you some machining and CAD support if you need it Max. I am heading down to Limerock in two weeks to run for the weekend to pound the crap out of my TT :laugh:


Thanks bud:thumbup:, it's good to know where to turn to, if needed!
I have CAD, a machine shop and a welder/fabricator at my disposal at work.
I will be PMing you if I ever need something:beer:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> Thanks bud:thumbup:, it's good to know where to turn to, if needed!
> I have CAD, a machine shop and a welder/fabricator at my disposal at work.
> I will be PMing you if I ever need something:beer:


Lucky


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

DeckManDubs said:


> :beer:
> 
> I can give you some machining and CAD support if you need it Max. I am heading down to Limerock in two weeks to run for the weekend to pound the crap out of my TT :laugh:


this sounds like a great idea. 

makes me want to check my Gruven's...but I've had no problems thus far...

Joe


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> this sounds like a great idea.
> 
> makes me want to check my Gruven's...but I've had no problems thus far...
> 
> Joe


Yeah I'm afraid to look, but I'm not to worried


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

This is some really discouraging ****. I had planned on going with a full set of the Gruven arms. But I don't think I will now unless gruven fixes this. I don't want to pay out the ass CPT arms, but I'm not gonna put up with failing parts that have a horrible life span.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

So is the design of the CPT arms better?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> So is the design of the CPT arms better?


I wouldn't agree with that statement. Their selection of rod ends may be better though.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

ejg3855 said:


> I wouldn't agree with that statement. Their selection of rod ends may be better though.


That's a question, not a statement 
Please elaborate on why only the ends are better....


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## superbtl (Mar 20, 2011)

i have upper and lower cpt control arms.....have had them on my car for 20,000 miles. they are great!!


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> That's a question, not a statement
> Please elaborate on why only the ends are better....


A threaded bar is well a threaded bar. 

The only thing that will really wear is the rod end, sans internal rust which both are susceptible to.

I wasn't saying one is better than the other, just that they in reality do the same job have the same concept and almost identical application of that concept.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

But the bearing in the Grüvenparts is the part that fails correct? The CP has something different...


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> But the bearing in the Grüvenparts is the part that fails correct? The CP has something different...


The rod end is what failed in mine. Thats not really a "design" issue, its a cost savings issue.

I can all but guarantee that the price difference between the CPT and GP is made up in the rod end. I spec'ed out the **** ones they use stock and they are $10/pop the QA1 parts I got were $30/pc

I would guess that the sealed ones are $40/pc but since when I called QA1 they told me it was not needed and to get the ones from their dirt track line.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

ejg3855 said:


> The rod end is what failed in mine. Thats not really a "design" issue, its a cost savings issue.
> 
> I can all but guarantee that the price difference between the CPT and GP is made up in the rod end. I spec'ed out the **** ones they use stock and they are $10/pop the QA1 parts I got were $30/pc
> 
> I would guess that the sealed ones are $40/pc but since when I called QA1 they told me it was not needed and to get the ones from their dirt track line.



I say its not a design issue because in theory the rod end they spec out is just fine in concept, life span is another issue.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Why not go with Kmac eccentric bushings? I've had them in my cars for years without requiring any adjustments at all. They are inexpensive and you will maintain the OEM arms.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

DougLoBue said:


> Why not go with Kmac eccentric bushings? I've had them in my cars for years without requiring any adjustments at all. They are inexpensive and you will maintain the OEM arms.


being able to easily change suspension geometry is handy for the track.


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## KN78 (Feb 2, 2010)

DougLoBue said:


> Why not go with Kmac eccentric bushings? I've had them in my cars for years without requiring any adjustments at all. They are inexpensive and you will maintain the OEM arms.


I thought about the kmac's too, but i've been reading that it's always to just get adjustables but after this i'm not sure! i wouldn't want to buy adjustables that are almost the same as the kmac and have them break or wear out every so often. looks like i might just go with the kmacs.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> That's a question, not a statement
> Please elaborate on why only the ends are better....





ejg3855 said:


> A threaded bar is well a threaded bar.





PLAYED TT said:


> But the bearing in the Grüvenparts is the part that fails correct? The CP has something different...


So you answered your own question :beer:

The center section is all the same, the rod ends is what is different. CP just has different rod ends, same concept but different part selection.

Its like buying an APR downpipe or an ebay one.


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

Response from Paul at GruvenParts.com -

I was not aware of this issue until now. We have sold over a thousand sets of these control arms and have only heard of a few issues with heims having play. Most were due to not greasing the heims periodically. 

Those in corrosive environments can choose to upgrade to fully booted PTFE heims - email me directly and we will give our cost pricing for upgrade. 

As with everything we sell, I back it 100%. My # listed on this (and every) thread is my personal cell # and I reply very quick if I don’t pick it up. I doubt you will find any company advertising on here with better customer service so don’t feel like you cant get in touch with me to discuss any problems you are having. Sorry for any issues people are having and Im anxious to get these resolved asap.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

GruvenParts.com said:


> Response from Paul at GruvenParts.com -
> 
> I was not aware of this issue until now. We have sold over a thousand sets of these control arms and have only heard of a few issues with heims having play. Most were due to not greasing the heims periodically.
> 
> ...


Paul-

We talked and your service and response time was excellent, I didn't make this thread to bash the product or the service but just to ask if anyone else has experienced these problems.

I do live in corrosive environments but remove the arms for winter, the joints just wore out even though they were greased properly.

IMO you should offer the sealed heims on your site as an upgrade with or without the purchase of the arms. that way people have the option.

Thanks :thumbup:


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

OK, done.

Anyone who wants the new sealed PTFE heims shoot me email. If you have bought already we will work with you on pricing for the upgrade. The PTFE heims/boot combo is expensive but sounds like it may be needed for some.

I always appreciate feedback, good or bad. Its how we can make our products better. Offer stands, email me direct and we will resolve any and all issues anyone is having. :thumbup:





ejg3855 said:


> Paul-
> 
> We talked and your service and response time was excellent, I didn't make this thread to bash the product or the service but just to ask if anyone else has experienced these problems.
> 
> ...


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to handle that. Ill be ordering from you guys soon. Im sure a lot of guys have been watching this thread like I was.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## KN78 (Feb 2, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup:
2 thumbs up for gruvenparts customer service!


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

O/P 

how did you end up choosing 

http://qa1.thomasnet.com/item/trial...aded-slot-injection-mold/xm-rod-ends/pn-5753?

as the correct end link for the Adj arms? 

I'm actually very interested after looking into QA1 thru their site.

would you be able to put soemthing up with the intalled product 

also, the Adj Arms 20V Master put up, are not too bad either

http://bwperformance.com/products/2832-vr6/vw-r32-audi-tt-adjustable-control-arms

I like the look and the finish of the gruven parts but, i like to stay open minded. 

Adjustable sway bar end links


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

i just went on QA1 and looked for the strongest Non-Lubricated ones I could find to be honest, I called them and verified my selection and they said it was a good choice.

Oh and Thanks Paul!


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

ejg3855 said:


> i just went on QA1 and looked for the strongest Non-Lubricated ones I could find to be honest, I called them and verified my selection and they said it was a good choice.
> 
> Oh and Thanks Paul!



where did u get the specs of the end links for the adj arms so that they could tell you its the right part?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

DurTTy said:


> where did u get the specs of the end links for the adj arms so that they could tell you its the right part?


you mean the tread and diameters? 

Paul @ Gruven told me.

do you need them?


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

ejg3855 said:


> you mean the tread and diameters?
> 
> Paul @ Gruven told me.
> 
> do you need them?


yea it would be great  

:thumbup:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

DurTTy said:


> yea it would be great
> 
> :thumbup:


3/4" - 16 is the thread.

The center hole to work with the gruven al bushings is 3/4"

Should be all you really need.


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## vtraudt (Mar 1, 2010)

*Gruven Heim Joints*

My friend installed (expensive compared to others, with dust boot) the Gruven adjustable control arms on his 1998 Passat 1.8T FWD manua.

They wore out in short time (5-10k max), outer joints have tons of play. Clonking.

Gruven says: we offer replacment Heim (at $300!). That's it. 
Based on his bad experience, he ordered the SPC (for about the same money Gruven offered for the joints alone).

Still have the old Gruven. Any suggestion how to fix them since Gruven left us in the dust? Could use them on another car if fixable at reasonable cost.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

The solution is a better arm. Talk to Max


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I have a set of Max Arms with the Gruvens hanging on a shelf. 

I will use the gruvens with poly ends (in something else) as there is nothing wrong with them other than they are heim joints that just wear out in 5-10K of road miles.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

vtraudt said:


> My friend installed (expensive compared to others, with dust boot) the Gruven adjustable control arms on his 1998 Passat 1.8T FWD manua.
> 
> They wore out in short time (5-10k max), outer joints have tons of play. Clonking.
> 
> ...


Either upgrade to the MaddMax arms or depending on the heim, replace with some HD units, might require some new bushings made to get the correct width offset. 30k out of quality heims is not an issue with dust shields. But they are expensive in comparison to the $10 ones that are on used by many of the arms opposed to almost $50 for the ones on the CPT arms (I have 30k + on my CPT ones with no clunks or play)

Bushings are by far the better option for the street. Heims are good for track cars that are regularly inspected, but have a shorter life span and require a bit more upkeep.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I cant wait to get a set of Maxs arms. Its on my short list. Need tires first though :laugh:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Still torn between getting Max's arms vs upgrading my grüvenparts ones. They sell the ends with bushings now and I can have them stripped and powder coated with actual powder coat for cheaper. Decisions decisions.


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## Von Stiegan (Feb 20, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Bushings are by far the better option for the street. Heims are good for track cars that are regularly inspected, but have a shorter life span and require a bit more upkeep.


This says it best.:thumbup:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

What are the bushings made of on Maxs arms?


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## Von Stiegan (Feb 20, 2013)

warranty225cpe said:


> What are the bushings made of on Maxs arms?


Their polyurethane.


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## SteveAngry (Jun 20, 2004)

FWIW My Gruvens have the poly bushings and they haven't given me any issues in the 1.5 years they've been on. Not one peep, still tight and still look brand new. 

Just a heads up for anybody with worn out bearings on Gruvens thinking of upgrading to the Gruven bushings...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Von Stiegan said:


> Their polyurethane.


Correct! The Madmax arms are polyurethane, but the durometer is proprietary (not an off-the-shelf standard poly bushing) and came after several tries, and a lot of street/track testing to find the perfect combo between stiffness and NVH control.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> but the durometer is proprietary (not an off-the-shelf standard poly bushing) and came after several tries, and a lot of street/track testing to find the perfect combo between stiffness and NVH control.


Damn it why didnt you make them 2 years earlier:banghead::laugh:


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

James,

If you need new Heims, I can give you a hand figuring out what you need. Just need to figure out the dimensions on the heims, then they can be sourced from McMaster or through our supplier. 

Or just grab some of Max's arms and hang the other ones on the wall / rebuild and re-sell.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> James,
> 
> If you need new Heims, I can give you a hand figuring out what you need. Just need to figure out the dimensions on the heims, then they can be sourced from McMaster or through our supplier.
> 
> Or just grab some of Max's arms and hang the other ones on the wall / rebuild and re-sell.


Thanks Noah. they are corroded and rusting but the heims have no play. I basically want to rebuild them next winter tho to be safe


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

" Seals It " full enclosure Rod End Boots should greatly extend the life of Rod Ends ( Heims ) used on the street. Dirt Track racers use these boots a lot.

http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp

They also make a regular style of Rod End seal:

http://www.sealsit.com/rodend.asp

Decent Rod Ends cost money. A 3/4" rod end that costs $20 or less is not going to last long. Aurora and Alinabal are top quality rod ends...but they ain't cheap!!

http://pitstopusa.com/c-133277-rod-ends-steel-rod-ends-3-4-male-steel-rod-ends.html


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## Von Stiegan (Feb 20, 2013)

Chickenman35 said:


> " Seals It " full enclosure Rod End Boots should greatly extend the life of Rod Ends ( Heims ) used on the street. Dirt Track racers use these boots a lot.
> 
> http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp
> 
> ...


Very cool stuff....Going to take a look.Maybe I can make use of these. Thanks bud.:thumbup:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> " Seals It " full enclosure Rod End Boots should greatly extend the life of Rod Ends ( Heims ) used on the street. Dirt Track racers use these boots a lot.
> 
> http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp
> 
> ...


They are still cheaper than buying new sets tho


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

uhh, you can always take off the heim joint and swap in the poly bushing end...

gruven even sells just the poly bushing end.

call them


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