# I WANT TO SEE WHO HAS THE HIGHEST N/A WHP NUMBERS FOR THE 2.5l



## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

If you have had your car on a dyno and it's not force induced post up I just want to see what other people have accomplished
By request I am starting a list of whp dyno numbers for the 2.5l-if you wanna be on the list we gotta see dyno charts I know they might slow down the loading time for some people with slower internet connections BUT it's really easy to type some BS on an internet forum and we don't want anyone to doubt what anyone else says so LETS SEE EM.

20squared- 161whp and 171 ft.lbs. 



_Modified by mk5RABt at 6:25 AM 8-27-2009_


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

i want to see this also


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## BluntdRabbit (Jul 3, 2008)

hmmm... this i'd like to see


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## digitalpirat (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: I WANT TO SEE WHO HAS THE HIGHEST N/A WHP NUMBERS FOR THE 2.5l (mk5RABt)*

Awesome! I want to see 200+whp/225+wtq


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## sbghms (Aug 19, 2008)

http://****************.com/default/zero2/lock5.gif


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

*Re: (sbghms)*

No ones got dyno shots they want to show off?


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

lots of people hitting this but no numbers yet, what a let down.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

Eh, it may take a couple days, I'm sure they're out there...


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

i think i dynod at 172 last week, ill have to get the print outs from the shop i dynod at. apr test pipe cat back intake


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

I'd put mine on a dyno, except I don't know of anyone around here that has one. I think I'd have to travel ~2 hours away to do it.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

Does anyone know the deal about the 2.5 motor in the 06-07 20bhp less than the 08 up?


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## youngkal (Apr 2, 2006)

"Does anyone know the deal about the 2.5 motor in the 06-07 20bhp less than the 08 up?"
I know that I have never seen a 08 dyno 20hp more than a 06-07 modded or not actually the best dynos I have ever seen for a 2.5l have been on a 07 rabbit so i think it is more of a car to car difference rather than a year to year difference

---------------------------------------


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

lets see some high numbers


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*

We made 161whp a few months ago with less than ideal AFR's. Haven't gotten it back on the dyno with the recent changes/additions, though.


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

^ List of mods?


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: (stangg172006)*

did you get 172 at the flywheel or at the wheel? looking at your mod list I'm thinkin thats at the fly

ALSO- 161 to the wheels lean is pretty good suprised the air fuel ratio didn't throw a lean code and cause a limp mode. know anything about that



_Modified by mk5RABt at 8:49 AM 8-23-2009_


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## Erik04gti (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

i did 155 whp and 181 lb/ft of torque to the wheels with a intake software and cat back last year in about 100 degree heat


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

yeah the kid up there ^ said he did 160 to the wheel with 93 fuel, intake and cat back with stock software.
oh and maryland represent










_Modified by mk5RABt at 11:09 AM 8-23-2009_


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## Erik04gti (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

yea i tried my best to represent... wanna buy anything??? haha


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_
ALSO- 161 to the wheels lean is pretty good suprised the air fuel ratio didn't throw a lean code and cause a limp mode. know anything about that

That dyno was done with Eurojet Headers, 2.5" Cat-back, and Unitronic Stage 1+ software. Since then, we've logged the car, made some adjustments and have added Unitronic's new Stage 2 software. Like I said, we've yet to get the car back on the dyno, but we're expecting some great results.


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## elf911 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: I WANT TO SEE WHO HAS THE HIGHEST N/A WHP NUMBERS FOR THE 2.5l (mk5RABt)*

When I just had my ABD CAI with a CEL, I did 3 pulls but with the 6spd tip it was annoying to control shifting. Best I put down was 154whp and 176wtq. Hope this helps I'll try to find the graph and post it


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

we need to see 200+whp to be happy haha, but the more people who post on this thread the more attention it gets the more likely we are to see it.
If ANYONE ELSE posts dyno charts can you please include a list of goodies that the car is equip with


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## 07bunny (Nov 21, 2007)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

i made 174hp and 190tq to the wheels. p-flo, revo with adjustments, tt single borla, and nst crank pulley. dont know how to put pics up. sorry.


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *07bunny* »_i made 174hp and 190tq to the wheels. p-flo, revo with adjustments, tt single borla, and nst crank pulley. dont know how to put pics up. sorry.


host the image, get the URL, surround the URL of the image with image tags.


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## p c (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
That dyno was done with Eurojet Headers, 2.5" Cat-back, and Unitronic Stage 1+ software. Since then, we've logged the car, made some adjustments and have added Unitronic's new Stage 2 software. Like I said, we've yet to get the car back on the dyno, but we're expecting some great results.

more info on Unitronic's new Stage 2 software please


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *p c* »_
more info on Unitronic's new Stage 2 software please


It's a 93 octane specific file that includes a cat-delete for those with the headers (i.e. - high-flow cat or test pipe section). It's available through us for $450 to new Unitronic customers or an upgrade of $100 from Stage 1 or $50 from Stage 1+.


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## MKVJET08 (Feb 12, 2008)

*Re: I WANT TO SEE WHO HAS THE HIGHEST N/A WHP NUMBERS FOR THE 2.5l (mk5RABt)*

mk5RABt
You should start a list in your first post with everyone who gives numbers so we can get a good look at it w/o having to search through the thread.
Just a thought.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

any idea when you all are going to get your car back on a dyno, any plans for cams any numbers you might be expecting from these modifications?


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: (Jon1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jon1983* »_I'd put mine on a dyno, except I don't know of anyone around here that has one. I think I'd have to travel ~2 hours away to do it.

Okay, looks like I have to eat my words. I found a place here. The problem now is they are only open M-F 9-5 and I work M-F 8-5.







I guess I'll have a fun lunch time one day this week or next.


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
It's a 93 octane specific file that includes a cat-delete for those with the headers (i.e. - high-flow cat or test pipe section). It's available through us for $450 to new Unitronic customers or an upgrade of $100 from Stage 1 or $50 from Stage 1+.


I called Dynamic and force fed, both unitronic dealers, they know nothing about this cat-delete upgrade file. I have the test pipe and I'm interested. I have a paid file stage 1+ already from them, so I guess 50$ charge?


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

there has got to be a difference between some of these engines because some people say they are putting down about 10whp more with the 08^ than peeps with the 07 model sooo0o0 whats the deal???


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## BSH Speedshop (Apr 22, 2009)

*Re:*

Im not implying or suggesting anything here...
Yesterday I got ITBs on the 2.5 stuck in my head. Clearly it wont make turbo power but the sound and response of the motor will be insane. Lighten the rotating assembly, build the head for high rpms and run a short ratio gear box... that wouldnt suck at all.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Re: (BSH Speedshop)*

whats and ITB?


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## ~kInG~ (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_whats and ITB?

Individual Throttle Bodies


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## ~kInG~ (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: Re: (BSH Speedshop)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BSH Speedshop* »_Im not implying or suggesting anything here...
Yesterday I got ITBs on the 2.5 stuck in my head. Clearly it wont make turbo power but the sound and response of the motor will be insane. Lighten the rotating assembly, build the head for high rpms and run a short ratio gear box... that wouldnt suck at all. 

no it would not...


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## prenne5050 (Jun 22, 2008)

*Re: (Jon1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jon1983* »_
Okay, looks like I have to eat my words. I found a place here. The problem now is they are only open M-F 9-5 and I work M-F 8-5.







I guess I'll have a fun lunch time one day this week or next.









damn haha that sucks


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *doqFastlane* »_

I called Dynamic and force fed, both unitronic dealers, they know nothing about this cat-delete upgrade file. I have the test pipe and I'm interested. I have a paid file stage 1+ already from them, so I guess 50$ charge?


Well then why didn't you call us?








It is a Stage 2 upgrade, that is all. All Unitronic Stage 2 files are intended for use with an upgraded exhaust. Unitronic assumes that most upgraded exhausts either delete the cat or include a high flow cat, of which, most cause a CEL. Therefore, all Unitronic Stage 2 files have a cat delete.
Regardless, give us a ring and we'll get you scheduled in. Going from Stage 1+ to Stage 2 is a $50 upgrade. If you didn't originally get flashed with us, there is also a fee involved with getting your customer account migrated to our Unitronic software.


_Modified by [email protected] at 9:39 PM 8-25-2009_


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Pm


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

this was to the wheels, per the shop owner. Not 100% on the 172. Forgot to grab the prints. He said " add about 10% for crank numbers." Also keep in mind, my sig numbers are w/o APR and test pipe... 


_Modified by stangg172006 at 3:07 PM 8-27-2009_


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## dmgraz (Jan 3, 2008)

check the usp test pipe dyno sheet for the 2008, thats mine


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

test pipe would inevitably lower hp because when combined with a header you would reduce back pressure from some where around 2 psi to almost nothing, or am I completely wrong?


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: (dmgraz)*

can you just post the dyno sheet


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## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

has anyone broken 180 whp yet?


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## dmgraz (Jan 3, 2008)

id say your wrong,
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4509021


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *dmgraz* »_id say your wrong,
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4509021


Where in that thread have any dyno's been posted breaking 180whp? I see 182 wtq.


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm guessing C2M has the strongest NA since they have a cam


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

20squared has the highest numbers so far and they didn't even get 170whp+ so um whats going on? Guys over at 20squared need to get a hold of c2's cams and then get the car back on the dyno and we need to see the numbers for c2's 2.5 n/a car and we need more people to dedicate them selves and their business to growing the 2.5l community. I don't know about anyone else but the 2.5l motor is just way cooler than the 2.0t but since it's not making any significant power besides the ones that are boosted with big turbos it hardly gets the same respect.


_Modified by mk5RABt at 6:12 AM 8-29-2009_


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_20squared has the highest numbers so far and they didn't even get 170whp+ so um whats going on? Guys over at 20squared need to get a hold of c2's cams and then get the car back on the dyno and we need to see the numbers for c2's 2.5 n/a car and we need more people to dedicate them selves and their business to growing the 2.5l community. I don't know about anyone else but the 2.5l motor is just way cooler than the 2.0t but since it's not making any significant power besides the ones that are boosted with big turbos it hardly gets the same respect.

We'll be getting the car back on the dyno one more time while it's N/A hopefully.


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## digitalpirat (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
We'll be getting the car back on the dyno one more time while it's N/A hopefully.
 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## spdfrek (Feb 28, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (digitalpirat)*

haven't dynoed my car but want to track this thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## elf911 (Jul 27, 2007)

Gonna try to get on the dyno this week with all my current mods and see what happens. If all goes well I'll post a sheet by thursday


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## SpiderX1016 (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm tempted to bring my car into my school for a dyno now. $40 for 2 runs.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

dude some ******* ran his car on the dyno at my school with tires that had no business on a dyno let alone on the street now no one is allowed to use the dyno for personal vehicles only for the hot rod cars after we build the engines.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

you guys aren't doing turbo are you? please say no PLEASE


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

are there any clear advantages of running a test pipe with a header over running your stock cat with one? It was seem to me that the incresed flow from the header would subsequently lower the psi of back pressure and without the catalytic converter even be lower, which would result in a loss of power righh?


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## PGJettaFTW (Jan 28, 2009)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

without my EJ header and ported throttle body i put down 163whp and 183wtq..... so with the header and porting i should be may around 175ish? 
BTW that was with 2.5" catback, abd intake, NST Underdrive pulley, and GIAC 93-octane software http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

it really seems like the cams are reallly restricting these engines


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## HIBB 304 (Nov 8, 2008)

*Re: (MaxVW)*

This person says he broke 180whp and has dyno sheet to prove it.
08 Rabbit,CAI,AWE catback,APR flash. Not sayin it's true, thought ya'll should see this.
http://rabbitownersclub.com/vw....html


_Modified by HIBB 304 at 3:18 PM 9-9-2009_


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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: (HIBB 304)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HIBB 304* »_This person says he broke 180whp and has dyno sheet to prove it.
08 Rabbit,AWE catback,APR flash. Not sayin it's true thought ya'll should see this.
http://rabbitownersclub.com/vw....html

Damn, 180+, NO headers???


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

no way, that dyno is messed up. He put down the highest numbers of any rabbit on a mustang dyno? he may get 200whp with headers cams and cat delete.
i wonder if he owns the only true 170hp rabbit in the US lol! it is hard to say w/out a baseline dyno. i mean then it would be obvious if the numbers were skewed.
we need new cams. every mod adds so much torque to these cars. at what point is the torque going to start dropping as the HP increase? cams are all i can think of. of course between cams and a new shorty intake, might as well go turbo imo.
I would love to see some DIY cams for $400 but it just ain't going to happen and i'm not wasting $1500 on a cam + install to get 10hp. between cams, shorty intake, header, and chip you're already up to the cost of a turbo setup.
mad props to anyone who makes NA power though! gotta respect the dedication of the VW N/A crowd. I would love to drive a 2.5 200whp rabbit that revs to 8000+ rpm and makes good power up top but I'm not the guy to pull it off, fo sho.


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 10:36 AM 9-9-2009_


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

I made 155whp and 165lb/ft (wheels) on 89oct. Did 3 runs and that was the average. Noticed that the stock ecu is limiting power delivery between 3-4000 rpm (timing is backing off), as is the motor running lean past 4000rpm. On my current set-up I'm actually losing power betwen 3-4k due to the timing backing off... Guess I have to do some "maintainance" and go get software.







Car pulled hard all the way to redline though, which was nice. 
Edit: only engine mods are evo short ram (NOT evoms), and magnaflow catback. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by david8814 at 12:29 PM 9-9-2009_


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: (david8814)*

Finally got over to Force Fed and ran on their brand new DynoJet...
Ran 163.60whp (175hp @ crank); 181.16lb torque (191 crank) on a 2006 Jetta... Both FFE & myself were very surprised being the stock ran 138whp (150hp @ crank). 
Links to my video thread from yesterday: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4558902

_Modified by doqFastlane at 10:08 AM 9-11-2009_


_Modified by doqFastlane at 4:41 PM 9-16-2009_


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: (david8814)*


_Quote, originally posted by *david8814* »_I made 155whp and 165lb/ft (wheels) on 89oct. Did 3 runs and that was the average. Noticed that the stock ecu is limiting power delivery between 3-4000 rpm (timing is backing off), as is the motor running lean past 4000rpm. On my current set-up I'm actually losing power betwen 3-4k due to the timing backing off... Guess I have to do some "maintainance" and go get software.







Car pulled hard all the way to redline though, which was nice. 
Edit: only engine mods are evo short ram (NOT evoms), and magnaflow catback. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by david8814 at 12:29 PM 9-9-2009_

There is no way you made 155whp on stock ecu, and 150hp 2006-2007 2.5L
That's impossible


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

Well if that's impossible then I guess you better call Miller Performance in Abbotsford, BC and tell them that their dyno is broken. In all fairness I was surprised by the power as well; I'll be hitting the dyno again within a few weeks hopefully once I get software sorted out.
Edit: you should do a little research and compare the dynographs of similarily modified 05.5-07 vs 08-09 so that you can see the differences in the motors. You seem to have this idea that the "170"hp motors actually make 20 hp more than the earlier motors, which is not the case; rather, the later motors have a smoother power delivery, and don't have the tendency to have power drop off as the motor reaches redline (which is typically the case for the earlier motor). 









_Modified by david8814 at 1:34 PM 9-11-2009_


_Modified by david8814 at 1:36 PM 9-11-2009_


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: (david8814)*

Probably wasn't a Dynojet I'm sure.


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: (doqFastlane)*

"Probably...I'm sure"? Which is it? It was done on a Mustang 1100se.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (david8814)*

no he was saying a 150hp motor won't make 155whp stock...
really no difference between the motors will change this or have anything to do with it really. the "170hp motor" won't make 155whp stock either. you're right there's basically no difference in peak power output between the two motors, just the power band.
Either way no stock rabbit has made even close to 155whp stock yet so I would seriously question the dyno or operator. 

It should be pretty apparent if you're really making this much power on the street. Only you can judge the validity of the data provided for yourself. Every car will dyno different numbers. The dyno is better used to detect relative changes than actual real world data. The gains seem in line, just for some reason the numbers appear skewed.


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 7:27 AM 9-16-2009_


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *david8814* »_"Probably...I'm sure"? Which is it? It was done on a Mustang 1100se. 


Do you have the print out/screenshot of the run(s)?


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Add a solid 10whp to those dyno numbers with $275..
http://uspmotorsports.com/prod...d=364


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Add a solid 10whp to those dyno numbers with $275..
http://uspmotorsports.com/prod...d=364










Isn't there another thread that encompasses that product? Or was that just a shameless plug?


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## CaTiRo (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

does the manual dyno higher than the auto?
if so, post 2 stock dyno charts of an automatic and two of the manual cause i'm curious if there is a difference in whp. 
just mentioning this because for example, the mazda6 v6 would always show higher numbers for a manual vs auto stock or given equal mods. also 1/4 mile times were noticeably lower for the manual.


_Modified by CaTiRo at 3:33 PM 9-15-2009_


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *CaTiRo* »_does the manual dyno higher than the auto?
if so, post 2 stock dyno charts of an automatic and two of the manual cause i'm curious if there is a difference in whp. 
just mentioning this because for example, the mazda6 v6 would always show higher numbers for a manual vs auto stock or given equal mods. also 1/4 mile times were noticeably lower for the manual.



Generally, there is more 'drivetrain loss' with an automatic then a manual transmission.


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Do you have the print out/screenshot of the run(s)?


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## CaTiRo (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (david8814)*

that's the smoothest power curve ever


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

Funny what low filter values will do...


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Isn't there another thread that encompasses that product? Or was that just a shameless plug?









Just want to see these 2.5's be all that they can be


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (david8814)*

Averaging out all those peaks brings the numbers more in line what what we have seen. Why are the curves so... fuzzy (for lack of a better term)?


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## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

im really curious as to what c2 put down with their rabbit. the one that has the intake manifold header and cams... its just looking kinda hopeless atm to break 170 whp







i know the cams will help out a lot!


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kungfoojesus* »_Why are the curves so... fuzzy (for lack of a better term)?

The curve is "fuzzy" because of the low filter value on the graph (set to 6). Were the number to be higher (say, 75)z then the curve would have been much smoother.


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

Slightly off-topic: I wonder what a raw dyno plot for an electric motor would look like.


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: (Jon1983)*

Finally got the damn file from Force Fed...
Here's the video for both runs...
RUN 1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/4...69354/
Run 2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/4...90833/
Here's the Dyno sheet for the best run.

*2006 Jetta WHP #*








*2006 Jetta Wheel Torque*











_Modified by doqFastlane at 4:53 PM 9-16-2009_


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## PGJettaFTW (Jan 28, 2009)

*Re: (doqFastlane)*

wow doq we are almost identical!!


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## NoGamesRyan (Sep 29, 2008)

I need to get mine done, I pretty much have the exact same mods as you both


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## jetta2pointfive (Sep 28, 2006)




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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)




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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

heres one with a slightly higher hp but lower tq rating, it also shows the difference the addition of software and a testpipe makes. 1st curve is with intake and exhaust, 2nd curve is with intake exhaust software and testpipe


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## DOQ fastlane (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: (stangg172006)*








not so sure about that reading...
Seems like you have the same or even less work done than the few of us who are fully modded out N/A and your making 14whp more?
Doesn't make much sense.


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## VR6DPLMT. (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (doqFastlane)*

Yeah it's only b/c he dropped a K20/24 in this car and isn't telling anyone. LOL


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: (doqFastlane)*


_Quote, originally posted by *doqFastlane* »_







not so sure about that reading...
Seems like you have the same or even less work done than the few of us who are fully modded out N/A and your making 14whp more?
Doesn't make much sense. 

well everyone knows dyno HP numbers arent 100% accurate, the most important thing is seeing gains from mods hence the 2nd graph. 2nd graph was with the addition of test pipe and APR. If it makes a dif, it read ~235 for my buddies stage 2 gti, APR claims closer to 250...


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

and what power mods am i missing? headers would only make me lose power with my current set up and an SRI is useless w/o supporting software... 


_Modified by stangg172006 at 10:24 AM 11-18-2009_


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## eddi3okic (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (stangg172006)*

is there any dyno numbers showing the difference between a rabbit with CAI, exhaust, and chip and testpipe and a rabbit with the same mods but no testpipe. I really want the testpipe but i dont want to lose any torque if i was to get one.


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *eddi3okic* »_is there any dyno numbers showing the difference between a rabbit with CAI, exhaust, and chip and testpipe and a rabbit with the same mods but no testpipe. I really want the testpipe but i dont want to lose any torque if i was to get one. 


A header, testpipe, or any sort of high(er) flow(ing) exhaust system is going to shift your power band/torque curve over to the right a bit. That's just the nature of what the addition of an exhaust is doing for you.
Some companies claim large hp gains from just the addition of a test pipe. Personally we've had the most luck with the Eurojet headers along with the Unitronic Stage 2 software. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## slomk5 (Feb 9, 2009)

do want... these are itbs from the m5
http://us1.webpublications.com...g.jpg


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: (eddi3okic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eddi3okic* »_is there any dyno numbers showing the difference between a rabbit with CAI, exhaust, and chip and testpipe and a rabbit with the same mods but no testpipe. I really want the testpipe but i dont want to lose any torque if i was to get one. 

Nope, sorry. My dyno shows the addition of software and testpipe. Check out USP Motorsports site or their testpipe thread on vortex, they should have one.


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## Trua (Apr 10, 2007)

07 Rabbit 5spd w/ CAI, exhaust, testpipe, and GAIC 93










_Modified by Trua at 11:09 PM 11-18-2009_


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: (Trua)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Trua* »_07 Rabbit 5spd w/ CAI, exhaust, testpipe, and GAIC 93









_Modified by Trua at 11:09 PM 11-18-2009_

Whats with the huge HP and TQ spread?


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

Mine isnt quite that bad but I am running 163/185 so I feel ya man.
Carbonio, Testpipe, Techtonics Dual Borla, APR 93









_Modified by chezzestix at 8:46 PM 11-18-2009_


_Modified by chezzestix at 8:48 PM 11-18-2009_


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

*Re: (chezzestix)*

lol it feels a little weird to step back a step but here is my most recent dyno. Shows how terrible the difference between dyno companies can be. The only difference between the baseline of this one and the higher of the last is program. 91vs93 is not 10HP.
Carbonio, LW Pulley, Evolution Tuning Header, Testpipe, TT Dual Borla, APR 91









_Modified by chezzestix at 5:56 PM 12-16-2009_


_Modified by chezzestix at 7:19 PM 12-16-2009_


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## ender619 (Aug 28, 2008)

*FV-QR*

hmm... i still dont get how the other guy is getting 177hp ????
how does the car feel chez ?


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

Well DynoDynamics seems to be a little bloated. However he will have a couple extra horses because he has a ton less restrictive exhaust than me. But I like my exhaust to be mild and well toned so I will let others have a slight advantage there. A trade of a couple horses for no highway drone is a-ok in my book.
Like a demon rabbit out of hell man. When you push the pedal the rabbit will push back. This is the first mod where I am starting to feel any resemblance to pulling Gs.


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## ender619 (Aug 28, 2008)

*FV-QR*

i get that he has a less restrictive exhaust.. but shouldnt ur numbers be about the same ? or more on ur side since u have header ?
i rly dont get it.


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

Its as I have said before. Dynos are hocus pocus that are ultimately uncomparable. They are good for one thing. Before and After gains done on the same dyno in similar conditions. Its a neat little mine is bigger than yours competition though. Comparibly though if I take the difference between DynoDynamics and DynoJet and add it to Dynojet I am pushing 171/190 which is closest comparison I can make without being on his dyno.
I pay much more attention to 1/4 mile and 0-60 times. That is what will win races. Not some arbitrary dyno.
Not to thread kill










_Modified by chezzestix at 9:00 PM 12-16-2009_


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## rabbit69 (Jul 11, 2009)

wow weird, i got 184 and 190tq on a mustang dyno @ tapp auto here in ottawa. mods are carbonio CAI, AWE-tuning exhaust, apr chip.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

lol yet again the best gains come from the stock exhaust system w/cat delete or catback!
am i starting to see a trend?


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kungfoojesus* »_lol yet again the best gains come from the stock exhaust system w/cat delete or catback!
am i starting to see a trend?

Cat delete? 
http://uspmotorsports.com/prod...d=364 
Enter code: torque for $240 shipped!


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: (rabbit69)*

mustang dyno's are known to present lower numbers on average as compared to dyno jet so thats pretty insane. cat deletes are stupid, N/A motors with scavenge better and have higher rate of exhaust flow WITH a cat than without


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Any CEL with the Unitronic stage 2 software? I'm running stage 1 right now and I've still got my CEL from the CAI. I'm gonna make the jump to stage 2 when I get my Eurojet headers.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_ cat deletes are stupid, N/A motors with scavenge better and have higher rate of exhaust flow WITH a cat than without

unless you tested this...you can't say its stupid


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## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

with a proper set up, how much more power can you get from a cat delete compared to a high flow cat and compared to a stock cat?


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

since I don't have the means to conduct a accurate scientific investigation I can't say I've proven it, BUT since YOU do why don't you get two cars(both N/A) with the same mods and run them both around a road course. I will Guarantee you the one without the catalytic converter WILL have a slower time. motors without cats scavenge less efficiently that why you can feel a difference in torque after performing a cat delete. I'm sure I dyno wouldn't lie to you either.



_Modified by mk5RABt at 7:23 AM 3-22-2010_


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (lessthanalex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lessthanalex* »_Any CEL with the Unitronic stage 2 software? I'm running stage 1 right now and I've still got my CEL from the CAI. I'm gonna make the jump to stage 2 when I get my Eurojet headers.
 you may want to fix your cai problem and make sure your motor controller is seeing the right amount of air flow in before you get another program uploaded that adds timing and fuel. it probably isn't the best idea just an opinion http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_ BUT since YOU do why don't you get two cars(both N/A) with the same mods and run them both around a road course. I will Guarantee you the one without the catalytic converter WILL have a slower time. motors without cats scavenge less efficiently that why you can feel a difference in torque after performing a cat delete. I'm sure I dyno wouldn't lie to you either.


we DID...gained 9.8whp.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

i'll retract the statement about the test pipe being stupid, but since you gained about 10hp it's important that we also know how your TQ number changed, I can't change what I've said unless you didn't loose anything or by some sort of miracle you actually gained TQ


_Modified by mk5RABt at 7:58 AM 3-22-2010_


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

gain 7. and rev'd high, faster....


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

of course it's going to rev fast, less air in the cylinder is like a reduced engine load, and "gain 7" what?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

really?







7 tq


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## BTDUBS (Jun 30, 2009)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

I know this sounds like a stupid question, but what am I going to need to make 170 WHP? The parts I have in mind already are, cams, exhaust, header, intake, software, and valves. I live in California, so test pipes=instant fix it ticket. Anything else I can do?


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## Jettakid18 (Aug 8, 2009)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

hahaha. Is someone really trying to argue with NLS about what a part will do to a car. That is amusing







. I have a Cat delete. And i felt the difference right away. My friend also has an stock 2.5l and i can just feel mine pull stronger. Also look at the numbers above and on USP website about the gains they experienced due to the Testpipe. Ask anyone who has it, it was worth the money in my mind. But my lawn hates me for it.


















_Modified by Jettakid18 at 3:27 PM 3-22-2010_


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

correct me please.
you guys are running STOCK headers? whats your set up?
SRI?
cams?
chip.?
exhaust?
Catless pipe?
intake?
underdrive pulley?


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## dmgraz (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: (Jettakid18)*










ahh thats my car. usp test pipe is worth the money imo.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

I guess the test pipe deletes the secondary catalyst because it has a bung for a o2 right?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

simple math 
test pipe=no cat. but has bungs for all O2 sensors
no cat=CEL
C2 flash=no CEL for NO cat
test pipe= more power AND TQ
test pipe and C2 flash=fun, power, better drivability and pass emissions with no CEL.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

does the c2 software delete adaptive strategies that utilize the pre and post 02s?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

what are you talking about? 
post cat 02 does nothing but see if the cat is working....so sure, they fix that as there is no cat.
front 02 works as it does stock and no need to "play" with that. because theres nothing that changes before the pre-cat 02


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## elitist (Apr 18, 2006)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Tech school kiddies.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

why would the pre 02 work the same as is does normally with the aftermarket software. shouldn't both o2's signals be shut out from the computer since it's utilizing a fuel and ignition map that was basically made to pass emissions down low and then deliver power and torque in the mid range was the goal. if it still worked would the computer just attempt to adjust from whatever fuel table they put in and the just eventually through a cel anyways because it doesn't have the capacity to adjust as much as it may need too


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

sorry, but i think your not understanding the ideas on how a flash load works and how the ecu works with factory sensors.
do you know how a 02 sensor reads and works? the 02 reads and tells the ecu to adjust A/F ratio according to what it sees. all while working with the maf and coolant temp sensor.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

doesn't really work with the ect but won't send a useable signal until the computer has it's warm up time the coolant and o2s are both up to temp, 02 is measured as a percentage, and transfered to the ecu as a voltage value and the fuel is trimmed or fattened up based on how much oxygen is in the exhaust stream more oxygen the more fuel must be ADDED oxygen in the exhaust precat is lean.
so if you put a changed the fuel maps and didn't adjust the adaptive strategy wouldn't it just adjust for a lean mix after you met the parameter for the tune to change from passing emissions to power and performance


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_sorry, but i think your not understanding the ideas on how a flash load works and how the ecu works with factory sensors.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

explain because i don't get it. I understand how you might go about adjusting parameters and things so the the engine computer will allow the engine to do what you want but "flash loading" no i dont


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

stock ECU is programed by factory....
the flash is a REmap stock ecu using the same sensors, just with differnt mapping in the ECU and the sensors still relay the correct info to the flashed ecu. stock sensors can and do that without needing to be changed. only time a sensor(normally) needs to be changed is a big turbo car...you chnage the maf housing size but not the sensor.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

dahh yaaa, I wasn't asking if you change the sensor I was asking about what parameters that actually have to change when they are "remapping" the stock ecu programming. if you are getting a cel then they are probably going tell the computer not to exept input for that sensor. if they are going to change how much fuel and when the spark happens they are going to disable the computers ability to adjust as it sees fit, because I want lots of VTEC ALLL THE TIMEEE!


_Modified by mk5RABt at 7:19 AM 3-23-2010_


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

nevermind....


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## Jettakid18 (Aug 8, 2009)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
test pipe and C2 flash=fun, power, better drivability and pass emissions with no CEL.
 . 
So your saying that I would pass emissions with my testpipe on if I had the flash. No more of this switch out before going in crap I have to do now?


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: (Trua)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_dahh yaaa, I wasn't asking if you change the sensor I was asking about what parameters that actually have to change when they are "remapping" the stock ecu programming. if you are getting a cel then they are probably going tell the computer not to exept input for that sensor. if they are going to change how much fuel and when the spark happens they are going to disable the computers ability to adjust as it sees fit, because I want lots of VTEC ALLL THE TIMEEE!

_Modified by mk5RABt at 7:19 AM 3-23-2010_

dude, they figured all that out. They have sold thousands and thousands of flashes. If you get one, you will NOT be the one that finds out that the ECU cant adjust... because it can... the ECU is smarter then you think. It adapts to many different conditions. W/O the 2nd sensor, the engine will work fine.


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_explain because i don't get it. I understand how you might go about adjusting parameters and things so the the engine computer will allow the engine to do what you want but "flash loading" no i dont

flash loading is simply telling the ECU to accept different sensor parameters, set by the tuner, and to change fuel delivery and acceptable AFRs. Its not rocket science! 
Are you confused about the procedure of how you get a new flash onto your ecu?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (stangg172006)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stangg172006* »_
W/O the 2nd sensor, the engine will work fine. 

correct the rear sensor does nothing BUT show if the cat is working or not...does NOT effect the a/f or ANYTHING for running wise on the motor, none, zip, zero, nadda


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

lol...
man, you ARE patient. (NLS)
i dont mean to be a smartass, but why is it that when people dont get something they get stuck asking?? why not look online? there are millions of articles explaining in detail how a car and all of it components work. 
people just have to read and add 2+2.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

I understand pcm tuning. I've loaded/written tunes for cars. ran them on the dyno then gone back and changed the stuff. we had a bit of a mis-understanding with the "flash loading" stuff. 
why on earth would I waste time searching through thousands of pages of information on the internet when I can just ask. does that not make sense or something I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Oh and since they sell the product wouldn't/shouldn't they be the authority on what it does?
oh yeah also woundering if the C2 Flash program that is used with the USP test pipe modifies anything in the computer besides secondary 02s input. I was thinking that if it adds timing and fuel as well as modifiying what the computer see from the post 02s that maybe thats where the power and torque are coming from and not actually the decat section of pipe in the exhaust.




_Modified by mk5RABt at 5:54 PM 3-23-2010_


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

ok..listen please.....ready?
POST/REAR/LAST O2 sensor does NOTHING for the motor. zip, zilch, nada, zero!
....all its job is, is to see how the cat is working or not working. NOTHING for air/fuel or anything else. cool? 
yes, the flash is a flash for performance so YES you it will change timing and fuel maps and other things BUT if you bolt on a test pipe on a stock motor...you gain whp /Tq. the flash just helps it have no cel as well as accomidate it with a better map...so you gain from software AND hardware.
IF you tuned cars(not carbs) and retuned, dyno'd, etc etc etc you SHOULD know this and what the sensors do...or you shouldn't tune anything. you need to have a complete understanding of how things work, the littlest change can hurt a motor. and don't do it drunk like hater dave....swapping - for + on degrees of timing isn't good








what school are you going to anyways? you words sound like they are straight out of a votech text book....


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

we make our own.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

equal or un equal length?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

equal of course


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## 95mk3vr6 (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

NLS: are you running a stock exhaust with the textpipe? im currenly running eurojet headers with stock exhaust. if i were to get a testpipe would i lose power since i already have headers? (yes i know the second question may be dumb)


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (95mk3vr6)*

no. full 2.5'' header back.
but 2 mufflers
if you leave stock exhaust on and the test pipe with ...you'll be good


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We made 161whp a few months ago with less than ideal AFR's. Haven't gotten it back on the dyno with the recent changes/additions, though.









won't those lines chop like that because of the way the valves are opening and closing? shouldn't the valve be well within adjustment if the valvetrain is stock? 
How much more Lean/rich would you ideal AFR be? its was in the mid to high 12 range for this run right?


_Modified by mk5RABt at 11:00 AM 3-27-2010_


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

what happened to NLS plans?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (thygreyt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_
won't

again, you have no idea what your talking about....

_Quote, originally posted by *thygreyt* »_what happened to NLS plans?

what plans?


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Hey guys from NLS, we have already talked about headers w/ cat delete on 2.5l in another trend when you guys were selling those modified OBX headers. Anyway, I installed my original manifold and added a USP test pipe to it and I can feel my car pulling harder now compared to the header w/out cat. I don't have numbers to back up my belief but I don't believe that headers can improve an MKV 2.5l performance overall (unless you turbocharger it), maybe just towards the end power (over 5k rpm). Also, the USP test pipe is splendid and it did not throw a code on my ecu. I'm running the test pipe without the mil light and without a cat delete file (not sure if GIAC has one for the 2.5l). Lastly, mk5RABt probably does not even know how to change the oil filter of an MKV, this guy is just brutal. If I had to rate his IQ I would give him -1. Later.
 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: (Zurique)*

"I installed my original manifold and added a USP test pipe to it and I can feel my car pulling harder now compared to the header w/out cat."
-HUH?








sounds like someone thinks the test pipe contains a catalyst?
and I'm sure there would be performance gains from a header if the vehicle was turbocharged http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
oil changes are REALLY HARD you know how to do one?












_Modified by mk5RABt at 8:07 AM 3-30-2010_


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

test pipe = no cat


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

NLS are the stock exhaust manifolds cast?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*

no.


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_"I installed my original manifold and added a USP test pipe to it and I can feel my car pulling harder now compared to the header w/out cat."
-HUH?








sounds like someone thinks the test pipe contains a catalyst?


I know how to do my oil change. LOL. And regarding the catalytic converter, if you think that a test pipe has a cat, that's on you, but don't twist someone else’s post. I said that my OEM manifold and the USP test pipe were working better (engine is now pulling harder, _or better yet before you misunderstand my point again_, I’m experiencing an increase in torque with minimum loss of horsepower) than the OBX header and test pipe. Get your act together cuz.


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_NLS are the stock exhaust manifolds cast?


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_no.

Regular steel.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

I didn't twist what you said I took it word for word exactly what you said, that the car pulled harder with the usp test pipe and stock manifold than it did with the header without (w/out) cat. 
i guess it comes down to cam geometry and if it were different the engine may have reacted different to a cat delete but thats not the case and it turns out what I said was completely wrong.
do the OE exhaust manifolds have individual port runners that go down to the main collector or do the ports just dump into the common area that is between the ports and the collector.


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: (mk5RABt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk5RABt* »_I didn't twist what you said I took it word for word exactly what you said, that the car pulled harder with the usp test pipe and stock manifold than it did with the header without (w/out) cat. 


Right, so my point is that the header does very little to nothing in terms of power gain. The header and the testpipe come in two separate parts just like the OEM manifold and the USP testpipe (see the picture above?). My car is still catless but with the OEM manifold.


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## GrocerySnake (Feb 25, 2010)

*Re: (Zurique)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zurique* »_
I said that my OEM manifold and the USP test pipe were working better (engine is now pulling harder), ........ than the OBX header and test pipe. 

are you talking about _just_ the OBX header not making much of a difference, or are you assuming the same result for all headers? im not bein a smartass or anthying. But what about the Eurojet header? would it have a greater effect?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (GrocerySnake)*

so far...test pipe gets the gains...not the headers unless others have proof...but thats what we are seeing...another reason why we stopped the idea of NLS making a header in house


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## GrocerySnake (Feb 25, 2010)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

So if you run this software, do you really need an aftermarket exhaust manifold?
Or will just the test pipe suffice?
https://www.c2motorsports.net/....aspx










_Modified by GrocerySnake at 9:12 AM 3-31-2010_


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (GrocerySnake)*

test pipe only OR header is fine with C2 software


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