# Do you think Audis are underpowered?



## Razor Back (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm a big Audi fan, but one thing that I have noticed is that they don't seem to have as much in the power department as one might hope out of a premium brand. I understand that there are many more features available and things are nicer, but I was shocked that Audi "let" this happen. Let is in quotes because I'm sure they were just focusing elsewhere and it slipped, I doubt they knowingly underpowered their cars.
Power
Lexus 3.5V6 *306hp* @ 6400 rpm & 277tq @ 4800 rpm 
Infinity 3.5V6 *298hp* @ 6400 rpm & 260tq @ 4800 rpm
Audi 3.2V6 *255hp* @ 6500 rpm & 243tq @ 3250 rpm
BMW 3.0I6 *255hp* @ 6600 rpm & 220tq @ 2750 rpm 
VW 3.6V6 *280hp* @ 6200 rpm & 265tq @ 2750 rpm
Toyota 3.5V6 *268 hp* @ 6200 rpm & 248tq @ 4700 rpm
Honda 3.0V6 *244 hp* @ 6244 rpm & 211tq @ 5000 rpm
Weight
BMW 06 330i *3417 lbs* (RWD)
Infiniti 06 G35 *3472 lbs* (RWD)
Lexus 06 IS350 *3527 lbs* (RWD)
Audi 06 3.2A4q *3649 lbs* (Quattro)
VW 06 Passat *3829 lbs* (4motion)
Honda 06 Accord *3371 lbs* (FWD)
Toyota 07 Camry *3516 lbs* (FWD)
VW 06 Passat *3576 lbs* (FWD)
Power to Weight
IS350 *1:11.53*
G35 *1:11.65*
VW(FWD) *1:12.77*
330i *1:13.4*
Accord *1:13.82*
VW(4motion) *1:13.68*
Camry *1:13.12*
A4 *1:14.31*
These should help illustrate what I’m trying to say. The A4 has the worst power to weight of all of the ones compared. It is getting beat by midsized sedans, and most embarrassing, the old fogey mobile of the Camry.
GRANTED the Audi offers many features and amenities not found in the others, notably: Quattro and a class leading interior. Luxury and premium brands should be superior to the brands/cars below them. That IS why we pay more ISN’T it? As you can see the A4 is on the bottom of the pile, and I wish Audi would pump more HP into their cars as I don’t really want to lose the great amenities that come with an Audi. 
Now fictitiously speaking if they dropped the 3.6V6 from the Passat in the A4 and kept the weight the same (I don’t know how much just the engine weighs, but I will assume they work some magic and keep it the same so I can have some figures to work with). If they did this their P:W would be 1:13.0 which would bump it up into the middle of the pack, just ahead of the BMW. 
And now that I have rambled on for quite too long I will wrap this up, and if you actually read all of this “Thank you, it took me a while to get all this together.”








Discuss 
Cliffs:
A4 is heavy, bottom of the list
A4 is weak, bottom of the list
P:W A4 is weak again, getting beat by the Camry
Do you think the A4 needs some more muscle?
edit: awww all my formatting got messed up, hopefully the bold helps now 


_Modified by Razor Back at 4:00 PM 6-28-2006_


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## Sepp (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Razor Back)*

They do make very powerfull cars, but you have to have a fat wallet to get one.
<cough...RS6>
But I do agree with you on the models within a reachable budget.
I personally think on the b5, the v6, or the 1.8t is not nearly enough power for that platform.
I was happy to see the 2.7tt on the A6


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## A4Jetta (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Razor Back)*

I don't think engine performance is an issue. Weight, on the other hand, definitely is a problem with Audi. Even if it got trillion hp, making a car heavier doesn't help the overall power vs weight ratio. New TT is the right step to make it lighter even with similar powerplants, 60kg lighter than Mk1 last time I heard.


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## Mr Radio (Feb 28, 2006)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Razor Back)*

Underpowered...fascinating question. Perhaps, considering their weight. But the weight comes from what makes the Audi an Audi...quattro. As long as they keep their 0-60 times competitive I wouldnt worry:
0-60(mfr.)
BMW 330i (06): 6.1-6.3 (manual-auto)
Audi A4 3.2q (06): 6.6 (auto)
A .3sec difference between the "class leader" and the A4 is inconsequential in the real world. It looks like Audi is playing a tit for tat game with BMW (and vice versa) as far as engine power is concerned. It'd be nice if they went for the kill and squeezed about 275 out of the 3.2 but...
I hope the gap narrows (between Audi and BMW) as Audi preps the new A4 (B8?) . Maybe they'll incorporate some alluminium structural elements into the new A4, like they did with the TT MkII, to reduce weight. In any event, I hope they dont _add_ weight.


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## delta v (Jun 8, 2001)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Mr Radio)*

I think all these horsepower wars are alittle silly anyway. My 80 quattro has 130 hp, 140 torque, and it accelerates just fine for me, and goes fast enough to get the boys in blue all bent out of shape at me. What do I need 300 hp for, when the max I can do in the US is 75 (legally)? Sure, if I'm planning on tracking my car in an unlimited class, I might, but I highly doubt I'm going to track my fat-a$$ audi...I have the MR2 for that.
Basically, these HP wars have become a giant ****-waving contest. Do you remember when a <200 hp M3 (not sure offhand what the E30 M3 puts out...) was a big deal? And around a track, it can still probably run doughnuts around these lard-mobiles.

_Quote, originally posted by *A4Jetta* »_I don't think engine performance is an issue. Weight, on the other hand, definitely is a problem with Audi. Even if it got trillion hp, making a car heavier doesn't help the overall power vs weight ratio. New TT is the right step to make it lighter even with similar powerplants, 60kg lighter than Mk1 last time I heard.

Yeah, I guess I agree with A4Jetta
[/rantmode]


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## Harold (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Razor Back)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Razor Back* »_
Power
Lexus 3.5V6 *306hp* @ 6400 rpm & 277tq @ 4800 rpm 
Infinity 3.5V6 *298hp* @ 6400 rpm & 260tq @ 4800 rpm
Audi 3.2V6 *255hp* @ 6500 rpm & 243tq @ 3250 rpm
BMW 3.0I6 *255hp* @ 6600 rpm & 220tq @ 2750 rpm 
VW 3.6V6 *280hp* @ 6200 rpm & 265tq @ 2750 rpm
Toyota 3.5V6 *268 hp* @ 6200 rpm & 248tq @ 4700 rpm
Honda 3.0V6 *244 hp* @ 6244 rpm & 211tq @ 5000 rpm
Weight
BMW 06 330xi  *3627 lbs* (AWD) 
Infiniti 06 G35 *3472 lbs* (RWD)
Lexus 06 IS350 *3527 lbs* (RWD)
Audi 06 3.2A4q *3649 lbs* (Quattro)
VW 06 Passat *3829 lbs* (4motion)
Honda 06 Accord *3371 lbs* (FWD)
Toyota 07 Camry *3516 lbs* (FWD)
VW 06 Passat *3576 lbs* (FWD)
Power to Weight
IS350 *1:11.53*
G35 *1:11.65*
VW(FWD) *1:12.77*
330xi *1:14.2*
Accord *1:13.82*
VW(4motion) *1:13.68*
Camry *1:13.12*
A4 *1:14.31*


Fixed the BMW stats to make a better comparison. My changes in red. I only changed the BMW as they were the only ones that offered AWD with a same size motor as you had listed. For the Lexus IS they "force you" to go with the smaller motor (IS250) if you want AWD.


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## A4Jetta (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (delta v)*

All those import horsepower war started by Nissan/Infiniti. Look at their Altima and G35, promoting 298hp for CDN$40k as the "lowest admission for a 300hp sports coupe/sedan" really has brainwashed the North American buying public. When ppl are looking for "larger is better" mentality when IS350 chasing hp over G35, they often overlooked the overall packaging of Audi. We are buying the overall package of Audi: Design, quality, comfort, dynamics, character, style, practicality and Teutonic passion. If you want the fastest thing for lowest price, buy a G35! But I want the overall balance of everything instead of just 298-300hp, I would take an A3/A4 2.0T with a far more briiiant package. Don't let me start on Infiniti's nasty interiors.








My personal favourite best bang-for-the-buck performance package is WRX STi.







G35 can't even get close to that!


_Modified by A4Jetta at 9:36 AM 6/29/2006_


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## Razor Back (Jun 2, 2006)

Sepp - Oh so true. The S4 is a rockin' car. I definitely want one of those ... whether that will be in the cards in a few years it completely up in the air, but if I can ... I will. The RS4 ... well that is a rocket with wheels, I reaaaaaally doubt I will be able to afford that any time soon. Perhaps it can be my mid-life crisis car (or perhaps the R8). Anyways, yes, yes they definitely have fast cars, but you do indeed need a hefty bank account to pick one up.
A4Jetta - Audis really do carry around a bit more weight, no doubt about that. As stated by Mr Radio, that weight is what makes it an Audi (Quattro and the interior). If they can use the aluminum in all their cars to help with the ratio that would be spectacular. I imagine they will extend this technology to all of their cars in time.
Mr Radio - I wish they got more out of the 3.2 as well. Paying another 5 grand for 50hp is a bit much, it would be easier to swallow another 5k for an additional 75hp. 
Delta v - Arn't all big expensive cars compensating for something? So having the biggest dick to wave is what we are after isn't it?















Harold - I used the RWD BMW because that would be a more common car to see on the road. Thanks for including the AWD one though. In actuality I should have done the same thing with the BMW's as I did with the Passat, oh well, thanks for the info.








A4Jetta - I really don't mind if people skip past Audi. I would rather they be the more niche company. I know when I see a BMW driving along I think *****, or badge whore. If I see an Audi rolling around town I think of that person as showboating. I think Audi is a more refined, sophisticated and elegant car than most others on the road. Aston Martin would outdo the Audi naturally ... but those are a biiiiit out of my range.








I'm also not a fan of cheap interiors, I love my Passat, especially the interior. I don't think I could drive something cheap and flimsy on the inside, as the inside is where you spend a lot of your time, better make it a nice place to be.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif To everyone who responded and for not turning this into some flame war. I have seen much less be turned into a flame war, and it was nice to actually read some coherent and thoughtful posts on the internet


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## StormChaser (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (A4Jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *A4Jetta* »_All those import horsepower war started by Nissan/Infiniti. Look at their Altima and G35, promoting 298hp for CDN$40k as the "lowest admission for a 300hp sports coupe/sedan" really has brainwashed the North American buying public. When ppl are looking for "larger is better" mentality when IS350 chasing hp over G35, they often overlooked the overall packaging of Audi. We are buying the overall package of Audi: Design, quality, comfort, dynamics, character, style, practicality and Teutonic passion. If you want the fastest thing for lowest price, buy a G35! But I want the overall balance of everything instead of just 298-300hp, I would take an A3/A4 2.0T with a far more briiiant package. Don't let me start on Infiniti's nasty interiors.








My personal favourite best bang-for-the-buck performance package is WRX STi.







G35 can't even get close to that!

_Modified by A4Jetta at 9:36 AM 6/29/2006_








What's with all the G35 hatred?







Yeah, the interiors on the Gen I G35 are less than ideal. lol But for the G35 1.1 (the 2005 reface ), the interior got quite a bit better. Still not as nice as Audi, but much better. And the interor of the 07 G35? Gorgeous.


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## chewym (Jun 21, 2006)

The newest car will always have more hp. Someone will always have more hp, especially against Audi that usually uses smaller engines. Even BMW had to put on some turbochargers to fight the competion. 
But here is something with 300 V6 for Audi
http://www.fourtitude.com/news...age=4
However, you will probably have to wait for for the next gen A4.


_Modified by chewym at 5:14 PM 7-3-2006_


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## A4Jetta (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (chewym)*

This Valvelift 3.2 V6 is going into B8 A4 and facelifted A6 for sure.


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## AntagonisticRS6 (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Razor Back)*

Not sure I follow you


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## buddahvw (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (AntagonisticRS6)*

my A3 has plenty of power for me
of course, for the past 10 years I have pretty much been driving a VW bus
so anything feels like power
but this car is GREAT, no need for me to chip it


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## Razor Back (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: (A4Jetta)*

Valve lift sounds pretty sweet. If Audi throws 300hp into the A4, I would be happy. That is of course if they can keep the weight the same or at least similar


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## Razor Back (Jun 2, 2006)

You guys think I should post this up into the car lounge forum . Probably get a few more good replies, and a whole bunch of trash. I think I will tomorrow at work. Also a bump


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## A4Jetta (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (Razor Back)*

Keep this thread in The Audi Lounge is better, we have a more civilized discussion. Plus those TCLers pretty much hate anything VAG.


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## dudelance (May 19, 2006)

*Re: (A4Jetta)*

Yeah my A4 is pretty good. I was driving an older Pathfinder so the moment I got the A4 I thought I was turbo charged, wait... its is turbo... anyway.
I always thought that the BMW 3 series seemed underpowered. Though I want one anyway.


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## buickgn (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: (dudelance)*

The one thing you have to consider is area under the torque curve. A lot of the Japanese cars, make less torque, or torque later in the rpm band. This means there is less power available at any given moment. I went from driving a Honda Accord V6 coupe to the A4 2.0TQ, and I feel the 2.0T is significantly more responsive, and has more useful power. With the Honda I was always waiting for the Vtec, and then it would lurch forward, and it made driving smoothly all but impossible. So basically, while the Audi is underpowered in terms of numbers in day to day driving it's probably pretty equal. As mentioned before they spend the money in other places, like making every button, surface, and latch feel perfect as opposed to some of the Japanese Luxury brands, that just make things look nice.


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## Razor Back (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: (buickgn)*

superBump!
I actually have a reason for it, aside from post whoring.
The new A5, only 10hp more than the current S4 yet gets to 60mph in 5.1 seconds versus 5.3. A small increase I know, but the engine didn't make much more power than before, the savings (I'm guessing) came in weight. The A5/S5 must have been put on a diet.


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## enigma1406 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: (Razor Back)*

The A5 will definitely be lighter than the S4 (which is very heavy) but remember that those 0-60 times are conservative. There are magazines that have taken the S4 from 0-60 in the 4.9 region.


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## sieben (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (Razor Back)*

without quoting all of the stats given there, I'd say yes:
A few that come to mind:
When the B5 S4 was putting out 250 HP, there was a Honda Accord model making 240 HP.
At least 2 or 3 generations of Maximas have had 250-300 HP
Plus, the Audis with quattro typically weigh, what, 300-400-500 lbs more
Yes, they are underpowered, in general. 
I still like em.


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## BJosePHD (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (sieben)*

what they lack in power they make up in class, id rather rock an audi.


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## GeoffD (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Do you think Audis are underpowered? (A4Jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *A4Jetta* »_I don't think engine performance is an issue. Weight, on the other hand, definitely is a problem with Audi. *Even if it got trillion hp, making a car heavier doesn't help the overall power vs weight ratio. *New TT is the right step to make it lighter even with similar powerplants, 60kg lighter than Mk1 last time I heard.

Obviously not a math major.








I agree with the overall point, though. Given two cars with the same weight to horsepower ratio, I'd probably rather be driving the lighter car.


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## bigwil (Aug 3, 2005)

Published horsepower ratings mean jack!
You have to drive cars; reading the manufacturer's stats is hardly a real world comparison. There have been many discrepancies between published hp numbers and actual dyno sheets, and horsepower is only part of an engine's character. HP is actually derived from torque and RPM, so to only judge an engine's power or performance by the quantity of ponies listed in an ad is, to say the least, simplistic.


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## Mr. Chris (Aug 20, 2006)

*Re: (bigwil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigwil* »_Published horsepower ratings mean jack!
You have to drive cars; reading the manufacturer's stats is hardly a real world comparison. There have been many discrepancies between published hp numbers and actual dyno sheets, and horsepower is only part of an engine's character. HP is actually derived from torque and RPM, so to only judge an engine's power or performance by the quantity of ponies listed in an ad is, to say the least, simplistic.

I completely agree with you


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## ian_au (Mar 11, 2007)

*power*

The point has been made a few times that figures can be misleading.
All figures are peak. e.g 300 hp at 7000 rpm. What percentage of the time do you drive at 7000rpm???? You need the complete graph to compare. Numbers at typical revs, and typical revs themselves vary with engine character, are what is important.
Artificially high peak figures make good headlines, but while some indicator to actual performance they can be misleading. Two things to note are:-
1. audis biggest negative is neither total weight nor engine output, but 'moment of inertia'. An ideal for handling is to have all the weight right in the centre of the wheelbase- as with mid engine cars. Audis tend to have far to much way out the front, even in front of the front wheels. This limitation means audi has been stuck as clear leader in quality for fittings and interiors (and arguably styling) but not always in handling. This is being addressed by audi now as a priority. The engine simply has to be further back.
2. audi's gasoline engines are quite competitive on overall performance. Some are fantastic, others further back in the pack, but take a look at their diesels!!! Audi has diesel as a big part of the way forward and is a real leader.


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