# VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ?



## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

Ok so I installed my new C2 Stage 1 (30#) chip, got new O2 sensors, ditched the secondary air, and put in new BKR7Es and gapped them to .025 . . .
So the car starts up fine and even drives fine until I start boosting, then the car just sputters like it just had a bad burrito . . .
Even on the way up to the boost point (which BEGINS roughly around 3K and really hits it at the 4-5K area) it just feels "heavy" . . .
Should I put the gap back to .032? Should I just go back to BKR5EKUs? Should I not have the O2 sensors plugged in (I got the Wayne Angle Block on the rear one)? I'm only going to push 10psi AT MOST . . . 
I've done the searches and I believed I had the same problem as everyone else did with the gapping the BKRs . . . but I verified mine to be at 0.025 and it STILL runs like crap . . .
Any ideas?
Also, rainy roads and FWD http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif I totally rashed one of my Buggattis on a curb . . . as if the night wasn't already a downer


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

what size maf?


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (KubotaPowered)*

i run .022 gap. above that and it stumbles, and i have a NEW coilpack.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (KubotaPowered)*

4" MAF
Would I produce any usable spark going any smaller than .022? Before this I ran some OLD C2 software, with the stock BKR5EKUs with no noticeable problems as far as sputtering goes . . .
EDIT: BTW, thanks for the replies guys!


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

Swap back to the 5's and see if there's a difference. If not then I would look at the ignition system. Unless it's dumping fuel in. I seem to read a lot of people having trouble with too much fuel on C2 Software. What's your A/F at 0psi and again at full boost?


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Weiss)*

Not sure what my a/f is at (no gauge







)
But I took out the plugs just now and they're literally just BLACK. Like somebody just spray painted them black.
I'll see if I can't fish out my old ones . . .


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

what version of c2 do you have?


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (jhayesvw)*

the "latest". I don't have a scanner so I can't read the version number . . . but if it helps, the plastic baggie that it came in read OBD2 Stage 1 3/2008








I just put in the old BKR5EKU plugs in (they have at LEAST 15K+ miles on them . . .) and it actually seemed to run a little better . . .
First gear feels like normal. I didn't take it all the way through the RPMs as I usually shift at like 3.5K or so. So that went well . . . but ALL subsequent gears start the sputtering at 2600 RPM.








I guess I'll try and play with gap sizes on the BKR7Es . . . I'll try to get it back to the original .032 and see what I can work my way down to . . .
Thanks to everyone reading/replying to this thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Oh that curb I hit . . . I now have massive toe out and positive camber . . .







I'm thinking ball joint and tie rod?


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

if you had them at .025 at it was sputtering, you do NOT want to go bigger.
go to .022 and try it. if it still sputters, its NOT your plugs. its your wires or coilpack, or something else.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (jhayesvw)*

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll try the 0.22 . . . the plugs are all definitely firing . . . there's a small "clean" spot between the prong and the electrode . . . I think that's the word . . . I'm exhausted . . .


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

UPDATE:
I drove home from my buddy's house (that's where I do all the work, since he has a garage and all my tools). It was roughly a 16 mile / 30 minute trip (business roads







).
It was a smooth ride so long as I didn't exceed 3000 RPM, which is fine because that's usually what I'll cruise along at . . . So I made it all the way home with no real issues.
So then I gapped the BKR7Es all the way down to 0.22 (EDIT: .022







). I took out the high mileage BKR5EKUs that I drove home on. I replaced them with the BKR7Es . . . 
Driving around, it still had the same issue: First gear seemed relatively normal, and all subsequent gears can't handle anything above 3,000 RPM. Well, to be fair I guess it could, but I have to EASE it into the higher RPMs. I can't exactly get on the gas pedal and it be all right. In other words, I can't put the engine under too much load else it'll start sputtering.
This past weekend, the only thing I've changed was . . . the spark plugs, the EPROM, I cleaned the throttle body, I replaced both O2 sensors (I have the rear one in the Wayne Angle Block), I moved the throttle cable adjustment up one notch (for no real reason . . . I guess I could move it back) and I replaced the valve cover gasket. Oh and I remove the secondary air stuff and plugged it with the 42DD SAI plug. EDIT: Forgot to add, I also changed the fuel filter!
The coilpack is still the same, and the wires are still the same, neither of which exhibit any abnormal signs of wear.
Any other ideas?
I might just switch back to the old software with the new plugs and see how it runs . . . to see if it's just the software not adjusting properly . . .

EDIT: On the brightside . . . I don't have any CELs







Did I just jinx myself on that one?









_Modified by Groundskeeper at 7:06 PM 3-23-2008_


_Modified by Groundskeeper at 7:17 PM 3-23-2008_


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

have you checked for vacuum and boost leaks yet? try to pressurized the entire system to see if you r loosing metered air... it will make ur car to run rich due to the lost of air...


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (PjS860ct)*

No, I haven't checked for vacuum leaks, but I haven't gotten a CEL and the car idles fine . . .
What's the best way to pressurize the system to check for leaks? I have a small hand operated vacuum pump, but that's only good for smaller applications.
Thanks for the suggestion


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

i dont think you will get a CEL with a vacuum or boost leak... (correct me if im wrong) you car will just run lean or very rich... 
your car idles fine and drives normal a vacuum (no load/boost) so maybe theres no vacuum leak but you may have a boost leak and doesnt show itself till you hit the gas...
you can buy one online or make one urself... 
how too...
http://www.awe-tuning.com/medi...r.pdf


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (PjS860ct)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PjS860ct* »_
you can buy one online or make one urself... 
how too...
http://www.awe-tuning.com/medi...r.pdf

Interesting . . .








Thanks for the heads up!


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

RUH-ROH!!
I just thought of something!!
I have the 42DD SAI plug, right?
I ALSO have a phenolic spacer that sits between the head and my lower intake manifold. It increases the distance between the intake manifold and the head.
And since the 42DD plug bolts right into the lower intake manifold, it's designed to be a certain length - a length that accommodates an intake manifold that DOESN'T have a thick phenolic spacer between it and the head!
I was wondering why the o-ring never got in all the way . . . it just kind sat there at the edge . . . JUST barely sealing off the hole.
I guess I'll have to go with an old fashioned freeze plug - 3/4" from what I'm reading am I right?
This may not be the fix, but it could definitely help . . .


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (Groundskeeper)*

try that AND
i think that the secondair air solenoid with the 2 prong wire plug on it needs to stay in the car. its non functional, but still needs to send a signal to the chip. 
that is what i understood from Jeff.
i could be wrong though. Perhaps Jeff will chime in here.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: VRT Sputtering Bad spark plug gap ? (jhayesvw)*

Couldn't find a 3/4 freeze plug anywhere to save my life! Am I wrong to look for it in an Advanced Auto? I have Autozones and Advanced Autos all around me and none of them had it! The closest Pep Boys is like 25 minutes away from me . . . I'll try again tomorrow.
Yeah I have that solenoid plugged in still . . . I originally took it out and I immediately got a check engine light on with that error code. I plugged it back in and just left it hanging there. So far no CEL . . . I haven't scanned for codes yet though . . .
Again thanks to everyone who's been reading this thread and especially to those who contributed. I hope I can get to the bottom of this one soon!


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

If your plugs were flat black that's a good indication you're running far too rich. This matches your stumbling issues too. 
I say too much fuel.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: (Weiss)*

Ok so I got an 3/4" expansion plug (Dorman is the brand if anyone cares). 
I unscrewed the bolt that was holding in the 42DD SAI plug and the plug literally just fell out. Guess it wasn't in as snugly as I would've thought







.
So anyways, I put in the plug and crank down on it. I can only guess that it's sealed up tight as there is no gap that I can feel around the SAI hole.
I took the car out for a spin and it runs better. The sputtering isn't AS bad, but I can tell it's still there. Pedal to the floor, I can still feel/hear a bit of stumbling. And the car still doesn't pick up nearly as quickly as it used to. 
At least the car can boost now . . . maybe it won't go as fast as it used to . . . but we're making baby steps as far as progress goes . . .
So I at least have ONE problem knocked out.
So my current problem is still around, only in a somewhat lesser manner. The car sputters in the high RPMs, and my idle is shaky after I've gotten on the gas. Like on start up the idle is fine initially, but after a few minutes, it'll start to bounce around and teeter the edge of cutting off. Driving the car normally (like get at least to 3000) and coming to a stop the idle will sometimes even dip so low that the car cuts out . . .
Any other suggestions?
Worst case, I'm going to pop in the old software, and unplug the O2 sensors to see what happens. I'll keep the BKR7Es in there as they SHOULD be all right.
Sidenote: The Secondary Air Solenoid. It just needs to be plugged in right? The vac lines don't necessarily need to be hooked up? Right now, it's plugged in electrically, but the vac lines, I have the two nipples on the solenoid plugged into each other. The vac line that it used to tee into I just replaced so it's no longer there. That's fine right?


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

You need a wideband! We (this site) and you cannot properly diagnose your problem unless we know exactly what your A/F ratio is. A wideband is "The Most" important gauge in a boosted vehicle. 
It may be dumping in too much fuel and you're pegging 10.0:1 and somehow not realizing it. 


_Modified by Weiss at 1:39 PM 3-27-2008_


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: (Weiss)*

I'm in the process of procuring the AEM UEGO kit.
Quickie Q . . . since I'm not running a cat and the C2 software supposedly ignores the second O2 sensor's signal . . . I can just plug the wideband sensor into that bung right? I'd still need to have the second O2 sensor plugged in electronically, but it doesn't have to sit in the exhaust stream right?
Sidenote: I nabbed a new blue 2-pin ECT, just to see. It was cheap and I figure I never replaced it anyways . . . a good a time as any, right?
I'm also planning on "recharging" my cone filter and maybe cleaning the MAF with some 91& alcohol.
If none of those cheap tricks do it, I'll switch over to my old software till I get the wideband.
Thanks for the support (technical and emotional) everybody!


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: (Groundskeeper)*

Eek!
So I switched ECTs and noticed that my smog pump was disconnected. I thought I had plugged it back in when I was fooling with it. Anyways so I plugged it back in, I had the new ECT in, I unplugged the battery for a good 15 minutes hooked it back up, let the TB adjust itself then started up. The car still runs like crap. And actually on the drive home, the car was running a bit WORSE than usual. Sputtering smoke according to my friend following behind me.
Grabbed my code reader and got the not surprising P1127 code. Long Term Fuel Trim System Too Rich.
I'm going back to my old software for the time being . . . 
I just ordered the AEM wideband stuff . . .
Here's to boosted VRs!!


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: (Groundskeeper)*

UPDATE:
So I put in my old software, and unplugged the O2 sensors. I let the TB adjust itself again and then started the car. The idle seemed to hold better. So I took it out for a spin.
For the first time in a week. I was able to boost successfully! So I go in an fill up at 7-11 cause I'm running low on gas (93, of course).
.
So then I take it out on a long stretch of road. I can still hear/feel a bit of backfires, but it's not AS noticeable. So I boost it a few times.
It starts to "sputter" minutely even while boosting now. I'm at a Stop sign and my friend behind me says I'm smoking pretty obviously. I can even see it in my sideview mirror.
Idle is still better than it was with the new software. So I make it all the way back home with a few new codes. Mostly the fact that the O2 sensors aren't plugged in, and the Catalyst efficiency blah blah blah, but now also a P0103 - MAF Circuit High Input.
Figure I should get around to cleaning that thing and see what happens.
I think I'll try and swap out back to my old BKR5EKUs coupled with my old software to see if anything runs better . . . 
If THAT still doesn't work, I'm going to slowly rollback to my previous engine state before I did all this work (including: restoring my SAI, and having that PCV elbow thing plugged in but not going anywhere . . .)
It's getting to be one of those weeks . . .


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## Jettin2Class (Jun 26, 2002)

*Re: (Groundskeeper)*

Sounds kinda boost-leak like. You can borrow somebody's boost gauge and compare what it boosts to to what it should be boosting to. Then check all boost related couplings. 
You still haven't addressed the issue of the wires. I had a set of wires that was going south on me that would really only show themselves bad when under load as you describe. When the car is idling, do you hear an occasional tick, tick? I could literally hear my wires arcing like that. New wires fixed it right up. If you haven't done them in awhile as part of your tuneup regimen, I would almost do them w/o even thinking twice. Some nice OEM Bosch for ~$75 are fine. This would also make sense with your black plug/rich issue because you're losing spark = incomplete combustion = pig rich AFR = black smoke out the back. Boost leaks do similar when the car meters a certain amount of air, provides fuel accordingly, but the air escapes and the fuel doesn't.
Fuel filters are directional too. I'm sure you probably got it right, but hey, I know when things are screwy, there are never enough things to check and double check through.
Good luck. I've been down this road a time or 3.


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## Groundskeeper (Jul 24, 2001)

HUZZAH! (Yeah I guess some people actually still say that . . . )
Not to celebrate prematurely, but I believe the problem is solved!!
So . . . this past weekend, with nothing else to really do, I decided to take apart my piping and visually inspect each pipe, each coupler, everything. And while I was at it I might as well clean the MAF and recharge the cone filter. PLUS this is a wonderful opportunity to repaint the pipes (they were red







so I redid them in black







).
I didn't find any flaws in the silicone couplers or the pipes. So onto the filter and sensor.
I used a standard K&N filter recharge/cleaner kit.
For the MAF sensor, I used 91% alcohol as I couldn't find the MAF cleaner (actually I did find it . . . but a day AFTER I already did the cleaning).
So I took sandpaper, degreaser, everything to the pipes to clean em up as best as I could. Same with the couplers. You should see the bathtub where I did all this work . . .








I put them all back together, and for lulz I threw the BKR7Es (verified AGAIN to be .022 each) and the new software back into the car.
I let the TB adapt and fired her up . . . idle was a bit rough as is normal for a car that's just had its battery reconnected. I was a little anxious but I decided to bite the bullet.
I pulled her outta my parking spot and took her out on the road. It drove pretty well in first AND second. So I tried third at a higher RPM and when I hit boost I was all







. No misfires!! No smoke!!
So between, the MAF cleaning, the air filter cleaning, the pipe/coupler cleaning and the pipe repainting . . . I'm happy with my vehicle finally being what it's supposed to be - a TURBO VR!!
Special thanks to everyone who kept up with this thread and especially to those who chimed in: kubota, jhayes, weiss, pjs860, and jettin2class!
Thanks guys!
PROTIP: I'd wager it was the black paint that fixed it








Sidenote: I still have my AEM wideband gauge coming in. Can I plug the sensor into the spot where the rear O2 sensor is sitting? I'm not running a cat but I'd still have to have the rear O2 sensor plugged in though, right? Just so now CELs come on. Otherwise the signal isn't being used by the C2 software right?


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