# msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro



## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

Hi all.
I'm almost finished my project and I need to get it running. The hard part now seems to be finding a nice .msq for my setup. It's a 2.0 16v with the Autotech cams, ported and polished head and Super Blackbird throttle bodies running on MS2 with an Innovate wideband. The fuel rail and injectors are from a New Beetle 1.8T. I'm waiting on a little bit of intake welding to get finished so I've decided that today is "Hook up the battery for the first time" day.
I'll admit it, I'm a MS noob and I'm scared.
I've searched numerous web sites from here to texasneons.org and not had any luck. Funnily enough, the links in Patatron's forum don't work any more...
Much thanks.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro (winnipeg passat)*

Just use the basemap that comes with it and tweak from there. Trigger angle should be about 60 deg and use the req_fuel calc with your engine and injector size. If it won't start play with the req_fuel until it does, and let it run till warm. Once warm set it back to 'normal' and start tuning.


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## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro (winnipeg passat)*

wait a tick here....
adam was helping a fellow with a passat 16v getting MS...... and if he IS the one helping, see if he's still got his basemaps kicking around (if theset up is even remotely close)
are you this fellow? this is a juicy tidbit of a car from what your telling us here...
you oughtta swing by http://www.ecode204.com, local vw site for winnipeg/manitoba (other then uberwagens)


_Modified by Tire_Marx at 7:40 AM 11-12-2007_


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro (Tire_Marx)*

Yes, I am that guy.
Thanks for the link to your site. Very nice.
Adam is scrounging up some maps for me but 
I hear that ITBs require Alpha-N so I wanted a 
specific ITB file.
I figured that with all of these motorcycle ITB 
conversions that are going on right now in the 
Vortex that there would be someone with a set 
up like mine who could send me their file. I guess 
I'll just have to share mine once I've got a decent tune 
going.
Still hoping for a donor .msq though!
She's not the prettiest Passat but I'm starting with a 
new heart and I'll worry about the cosmetics next summer.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro (winnipeg passat)*

I have a few but nothing on this computer!


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro (need_a_VR6)*

Well, I hooked up the battery and, after fiddling with the 
fuel pump wiring I got pretty much every thing to work. 
Adam and I programmed the wideband and tested some 
of the sensors through the megasquirt. One of the hardest 
parts was getting the right serial-to-usb adapter driver.
All that's left is a little bit of welding on the intake to mount 
the 1.8t fuel rail and the installation of a base map.
Oh yeah, hook up some kind of throttle cable too.
Please, please, somebody post an ITB MSII Alpha-N file!!
Please!

Thanks.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: msq file for 16v w/ITBs and distro (winnipeg passat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *winnipeg passat* »_
Please, please, somebody post an ITB MSII Alpha-N file!!


Load the 305 Chevy basemap, calibrate the TPS, come up with some decent numbers for the afr table, and then start driving, logging and tweaking in MSLogViewer. It's that easy.


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

mk2Dubbin posted his file, dont mind the hp levels compared to digi, this run was before he realized his new throttle bodies were only opening 3/4 of the way at full throttle.

_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_back from the dyno this morning. sorry to those who showed up to see the runs only to find out they ran me early...








first off, heres the dyno chart from last may. specs were then:
bone stock 2.0l 16v with autotech cams
digi1 management with 16v cams chip
header/exhaust








and now todays run. specs are:
stock 2.0l 16v bottem end 
mild p/p 1.8l head with autotech cams and springs, tapered guides
megasquirt SEM
header/exhaust
45mm itb's








so im pretty disappointed overall that i lost 1whp and gained 3wtq. however, i know the power is there i just need to learn how to tune better. this was a street tune i did by myself, and i think it performed fairly well overall in comparison to before.
here is the msq i used for all three runs (ms1 v2.2 hires 09c):
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...o.msq
here is a complete datalog of all three runs:
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...s.xls
and last but not least - a video clip of each run. each file is 3mb, and be sure to have the latest divx installed or it probably wont work. special thanks to THE REV for taking the time to come and video the runs for me!
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...1.wmv
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...2.wmv
http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/...3.wmv
_Modified by mk2dubbin at 3:01 PM 7-14-2007_


_Modified by yeayeayea at 2:12 PM 11-13-2007_


_Modified by yeayeayea at 2:14 PM 11-13-2007_


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

just noticed he was on MS1, are they compatable?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (yeayeayea)*

You can load the msq and then export the tables as VEX and then import them.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Sweet.
Thanks for the msq linkage and thanks for 
the vex file conversion to MSII. I had tried 
to load a few maps in and all I got was junk.
I appreciate this help very much.
I will keep you all posted.


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

no problem man i saved em to my hard drive because nobody ever seems to do that, incase the links eventually get broken. Plus i just picked up some ITB's myself and will find the msq file very useful


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (yeayeayea)*

Okay...
Everything works except for spark. 
Running MSII from diyautotune. The white signal wire is connected to the "0" pin on the hall sender, the braided ground goes to the '-' and the 5v line from the TPS goes to the positive. TPS works but I'm not getting a pulsing signal on the voltmeter when I crank. Gonna try again with a test light tonight. I heard that hall senders need >9v but a buddy got his to work on 5v.
On the 3-pin bosch coil control module I have the 'IGN' wire hooked up to the middle, 12v from circuit 15 to the positive and the ground goes to the cylinder head. It seems correct to me but obviously I'm missing something. My latest bit of research seems to indicate that MSII can control the coil directly but I have yet to find anything conclusive for my setup. I will try this tonight as well.
I'm working on this with a guy who successfully installed a Patatron MSI unit on a 16v and he's stumped too.
Please enlighten.
Thanks very much.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

You can run it on 5v but you need to follow the low to high hall input for 5v at msextra.com in the hardware manual. If you have XG1 and XG2 still jumpered it's a good indication that it won't work in your configuration.
If you're using a 3 wire Bosch coil you can omit the VB921 or use it, doesn't matter. You will need to use inverted if you're using the VB or non-inverted if you skip it.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Did LOTS more reading. Printed lots of stuff out 
and I'll take it to the garage tomorrow. I'm gonna 
try direct coil control. My understanding is that with 
PCBv3.57 it should just be a matter of setting a few 
jumpers.
I'll report back.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

OK...
Again, MSII v3.57 from diyautotune. I now get a bang-on tach signal on the VR setting not the hall setting. Systematically tried every option. Direct coil control didn't work so it's running the hall-sender off the distro and the 3-pin bosch coil driver. Working well. Used the jumpers on the circuit board. Disconnected XG-1 to XG-2.
Running best on alpha-n but it's running really rich off of a weird O2 signal. Using an Innovate LC-1 which has been zero-ed in open air etc. Followed the Patatron procedure for setting 0v=10afr, 5v=20afr. In megatune I went into the configurator and set the lambda sensor to this same setting. Set O2 reading to 'instantaneous' and still very jumpy. Tried the other feed-back frequency settings too. The afr dial does respond to blips of the throttle by showing 'lean' when I lift but the needle does jump around quite a bit. Went to the 3D tuning graph and took fuel out, the engine note changed but it still read super rich. 'Required fuel' shows '12' above and '6' below.
Lay in bed last night and thought about it. Couldn't sleep. Figured it was because the ecu and the O2 were grounded at different spots. Went to the shop in -36 degree weather and soldered these grounds to a common lug and bolted it to the chassis ground right by the battery. Nothing changed.....
Now I'm stuck. This is my last obstacle to getting this project mobile. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

How jumpy is it, a full point, less? How rich is 'super' rich?


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

The AFR gauge says 7.9 and the place reeks of gas. The needle doesn't move smoothly. Sorta 'hops' over to 'lean' and then back again. I don't think it's actually running as rich as the gauge suggests. I'm going to try to attach some pics...


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

The spark advance table is like that cause I was setting the static timing.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

Some more shots.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

If your wideband is set for 0-5v=10-20afr there's no way you can be that rich, as it wouldn't be able to read it. Double check that you're set for that in the configurator. 
Also, have you tried testing the ecu on a stim? I've seen problems with blown injector drivers that flood the motor. You can get it running but nothing you'll do will get the fuel out.


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## Black mkII (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Alright,
I am Winnipeg Passat's buddy who has been helping him out. I have done a megasquirt setup on my own 16v with the same wide band.
We have made sure that the settings in the megasquirt config. are set to the innovate 0-5 10-20 settings and we have also set the table in Log works (innovate software) to match. 
The AFR guage will stay at 7:1 ish in Megatune until you rev it where it will jump up to 20:1 in a very un-smooth manner. 
*I have tried to pull fuel out but I cannot change the AFR at idle (and yes the O2 sensor is set to activate above 500 rpm)







*
My next advise would be to free air calibrate the sensor (again) and to maybe try and measure the actual voltage coming from the sensor.








Other then that any advise would be great.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Black mkII)*

I know nothing about this...really I don't, but as I understand MS you don't HAVE to use a wideband...do you? Or has the wideband now replaced an 02 sensor that you need?
If there are wideband issues, why not try to set it up without the wideband input first, and then use the wideband later as fine tuning.
I mean...isn't the purpose of the wideband to make tuning easier/more accurate?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Black mkII)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Black mkII* »_
The AFR guage will stay at 7:1 ish in Megatune until you rev it where it will jump up to 20:1 in a very un-smooth manner. 

Does it read 7:1 after the sensor is done heating? Any misfires around idle? Does the car seem to run ok other then the afr looking funny?


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Well I went to the shop last night and I got the wideband to read properly by going into 'tools > afr config' and setting it up for innovate 0-5v = 10-20 afr. At least it looks good to me. The gauge then responded properly but it was still 10.5:1. 
Went into the configurator and selected 'alpha-n' under 'fuel algorithm'. Nothing changed. Tried to use autotune but it was grey-ed out. Adjusted required fuel to 6, then 4 and it was still rich but just ran worse. There must be some setting to allow MS to correct fueling according to WB O2 but I can find the right combination of settings.
I'll keep going.
Thanks for the help.
Stay tuned...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

You have the AFR table enabled all the time, what are the settings there?


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Some where it said that I must 'allow EGO control'. Can't remember where at the moment. Could this be why 'autotune' was greyed out? 
Anyway, I can't get back to the shop 'till Saturday...


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

Here is the window...
http://i247.photobucket.com/al...f.jpg


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

You might want to go through the megamanual again, there are some settings in there for MS2 that I don't know enough about. I think that window is for long term fuel correction like 'learning'.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Yes, I will have to read and re-read.
The problem is that my brain is full. The learning curve has been 
very steep.
Hmmmm....
And I'm tired of smelling like gas.
But I have glimpsed how sweet the end result will be so 
with that in mind I will read the Megamanual again. And 
it's not a fun read. 
I have most of Saturday booked for tuning.
Report back after.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

Maybe you all already know this but the reason why 'autotune' was grayed-out was because my engine was operating 'outside the parameters' or something like that. 
What are the parameters you may ask? 
After lots of help from Black mkII we found the parameters in the configurator code but could not change them. For that you have to go to the actual MS settings code in the MS program folder on your C: drive. Here the rpm parameter was 1500 to 3200 or so and I was idling at 900 - hence the gray-out. I then entered all the appropriate parameters of what I expected my engine to run at and started autotuning. Then I had to learn about 'radius' and such. Also, I had to set the 'wideband authority' to 10% in order for autotune to actually adjust my fuelling. I'll then tune at 5% to refine the settings etc. The key is to have good spark and AFR tables first.
i hope this helps others who might be a bit lost like me.
Any autotuning wisdom is most welcome.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

I've never gotten Autotune to work right on the cars I tune. It takes less time to just do some manual adjustment to make the car not drive stupid, some data logging, and then run it through MSLogViewer and run the VE analyzer. The only tricky part with MSLV is getting the TPS range to read right the first time. 
A good AFR table is necessary but spark isn't, many times I do a first tune at 25deg timing everywhere just so I don't have to think about it.


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## winnipeg passat (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Still strange.
It still needs to run super rich to idle at all. If I lean it out 
it dies. My itb's have a manually adjustable throttle by-pass 
so I can dial in the idle manually. 
My latest theory is that the fuel injectors are wired incorrectly.
Bank 1 is on cylinders 3 and 4.
Bank 2 is on 1 and 2.
Since the firing order is 3-4-2-1 
I think I should wire 
bank 1 to cylinders 2 and 3 and 
bank 2 to cylinders 1 and 4 so that 
the injector pulses match the intake 
valve timing. Is this obvious? Am I 
missing something?
Hope fully this will stop the engine 
from 'backfiring' through the intake 
and popping my ITB's off. Fuel must 
be building up in the runners...
Thanks.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (winnipeg passat)*

1/4 3/2 in pairs, and run 2 squirts alternating to get the best balance of those. I would double check the timing setup, make sure you're getting proper advance at rpm, etc if you're having backfiring problems.


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## mxman (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Lance has a nice write-up for the autotune settings so they actually work, it involves basically pasting text into file.








Autotune works great on my ms2..but hard to say, ya i dont like it jerking around etc..


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