# New Product! KONI FSD (Frequency Selective Damping)



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*New! KONI FSD (Frequency Selective Damping)*

KONI has released FSD for aftermarket applications now available on the new Audi A4 and A6. Soon to be available for Golf/Jetta IV and V. This is a product designed to be used on stock ride height vehicles which will improve handling and comfort by using KONI's Frequency Selective Damping.(FSD) For more information see www.koni-na.com/fsd 




_Modified by bob45228 at 1:40 PM 8-26-2005_


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Hey Bob! We were talking about this product on the R32 forums, in the damper dyno thread...... Last time (if I remember correctly) you said Mk V only, guess things have changed for our best!


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

This is a copy-paste from the discussion we had in the R32 forums.
"Back2Dubs" did a dyno session and few rear dampers for R32 were tested. The OE Monroe showed a very interesting rebound curve and that is how the Koni FSD came to mind....

_Quote, originally posted by *Back2Dubs* »_









....... our stock Monroes which are really unusual with what amounts to a 'staged' Rebound curve. I believe that it is mainly this feature (along with relatively weak Compression/Rebound) that gives the US stock suspension a rather odd feeling of 'floatiness' and 'disconnect'. The appropriate question to be asked is “Why was the damper valved this way?”










Here is a possible answer to that…. Recently Koni came out with something extraordinary. It is still not very popular and I do not know why they are not advertising it big time, but rather keeping it low profile, but here is web site that talks about this new damper, called FSD (Frequency Selective Damping):
http://www.koni-fsd.com
There is a very good explanation of how this works and why it was designed to work that way. It is a brilliant idea that will perhaps end once and forever the compromise between the feel for handling and ride quality. There are couple of very cool animations as well, but things happen too fast and you guys may want to use “print-screen” and capture different stages from those animations and then analyze them one by one as to get the process easier….. But before we go off-topic, here is why I thought these new Koni FSD dampers are related to the puzzle with the OE Monroe on your R32:
Here is a captured screen from one of those animations for the above site. 








In few words, we have the digressive vs. progressive damping curves in play. From that Koni web site comes confirmation to what we have been slowly discovering in the other damper thread – a good digressive curve (typical Bilstein) will give good handling feel, but it will be uncomfortable. A good progressive curve (none of the aftermarket dampers come with such for our cars) will be very comfortable, but it will not give good feel for handling. What Koni does here is to achieve a digressive curve at low frequencies (see the blue lines) and achieve progressive curve at high frequencies. This way you get the Bilstein feel when you really need it, and then get great amount of comfort when the road gets bumpy, going back to Bilstein when the surface smoothens. So, the OE Monroe, using let’s say conventional damper (not FSD), had to make a choice (choice driven by VW I would guess) to either make a digressive curve alla Bilstein for feel or to make a progressive curve like in this Koni FSD as to get great comfort. Sure enough, they took the “comfort” route. Bottom line is - the damper’s rebound curve had to be the way it is, as perhaps that is the only way you can have such a strong rear spring and yet have comfort levels that will not steer the average buyer away from the product. 
Few notes: The graph Ralph posted is Force vs. Displacement, meanwhile the graph above (Koni FSD) is Force vs. Velocity, but they can be converted for better understanding. The important part is to take for granted that the blue curves from the Koni graph will look like the Bilstein rebound curves from Ralph’s graphs, and the red curves will look like the OE Monroe rebound curves. Also, Koni shows the rebound in the upper side of the graph and the compression in the lower side, but it does not matter, just keep in mind this is just rebound, not compression.


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## gonzo1968 (Jul 9, 2002)

Does anybody know where to purchase these awesome duds.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (gonzo1968)*

Golf, Jetta IV units will not be out until end of this year early next year. Jetta V should be in in the next two weeks. Most Audi applications are in as well.


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## ewongkaizen (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I know that Pyce knows his stuff... and Im just a clueless "newbie"
But isnt "frequency senstive damping" really saying "piston velocity senstive damping" - in other words - it works the same way all stacked valve shocks work.
As far as I know (and this is much mreo for dez racing) the ideal shock would ALSO be "position" sensitive damping...
In other words - at middle ranges (aka on the street) it would be real plush As you pushed the car and the suspension compressed - the damping rate would get higher... Granted thios would NOT eliminate the roll, but as the roll got deeper, the damping got stiffer...
AKA - the "bypass" shocks you see on off road racer cars....


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (ewongkaizen)*

The velocity sensitive damper acts in a different way with different velocities. This one acts in a different way (altering damping force) with different frequencies. Basically the velocity of the shaft could be the same, but if the frequency of the shaft movement is low, it will provide strong damping. If the frequency is high, it will make the damping softer. 
Imagine this damper that goes in rebound and the shaft speed is 10 in/sec. So, what happens here is that we pull the damper for half second at that speed and then we compress it for another half second with the same speed - we have extended it 5 inches and the damper was operating at 1 Hz (1 cycle per second)...... Now, same damper, same speed, but we extend it only 0,5 (half) inch, then compress back then extend the same 0,5 inches and compress back and so on for the same one second. So, we could do 10 cycles like this for the same time, which made this damper operate at 10 Hz (10 cycles per second). So, in the first scenario, the FSD feature provides strong damping, in the second scenario provides soft damping. As you can see, the velocities in both cases are the same, but the damping is different. To oversimplify it - when the shaft's movements are longer (time wise), we have strong damping. When they are shorter (time wise), and therefore more often repeated in the time frame - the damping softens. Velocity sensitive dampers would not change (in principle) the damping force in the above two scenarios.
As they wrote it nicely on their website - the FSD valve is just an amplifier that works in parallel with the main valve. At low frequencies the FSD valve closes, so more pressure builds as the oil has to go through the main valve only. At higher frequencies, the valve opens (or shall we say - it has no time to close), so the oil goes through both main valve and the FSD valve, therefore we have more oil flow, less pressure. Hope it makes sense.


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## Ceilidh (Jan 7, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

ewong,
Also, the intent of a frequency-sensitive damper is to be position-independent (i.e., the opposite of a position-dependent shock, where damping is soft at some nominal rest position but stiffer above and/or below). In a street car, with its substantial amounts of cornering roll, a position-dependent shock only works well when driven in a straight line, whereas an FSD still allows for supple suspension motion when the car is rolled over in a corner. Conversely, a position-dependent shock (as you pointed out in your post) will allow a degree of "float" and handling softness in its rest position, whereas an ideal FSD will maintain handling "tightness" even in the straightahead and on initial corner entry.
If you're into physics/engineering terms, an FSD is an attempt at decoupling the harmonics due to road imperfections from those associated with handling dynamics. If those harmonics can be decoupled, then you can combine firmness in handling with suppleness in bump; ideally, the car should feel as if it is being driven with stiff shocks on exceptionally smooth pavement.
Notice the conditional clause "If those harmonics can be decoupled...."; a true active suspension can accomplish such decoupling (which is one reason such systems have been banned from Formula One), but it's not clear how far one can go via passive dampers. The key will lie in the tuning, and not every car model will respond in the same way. It'll be interesting to see how good a job Koni has done with their FSD line, and how suitable the approach is for the Golf/Jetta IV platform.. (We have high hopes!)








-C




_Modified by Ceilidh at 2:16 PM 8-4-2005_


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Ceilidh)*

The largest problem with a position sensitive damper is that it is position sensative. For a position sensitive damper to work all the cars produced must be at the exact same ride height to work effectively. With FSD the heights must only be similar and KONI has tested FSD with factory lowered suspensions and standard height suspensions with great success. This system was introduced on the Lamborghini Gallardo in 2003. Mr. Ceccarani, Technical Director of Lamborghini is quoted in Autocar, June 2003.
“I am convinced that they (KONI FSD shocks) help lift the Gallardo’s ride/handling to a new level.”


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## Ceilidh (Jan 7, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Thanks for the pointers, Bob!
Do you have a sense for what pricing will be like? And will the fronts be externally adjustable, as with the Koni Yellows?
Many thanks, and looking forward to learning more!


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Ceilidh)*

Pricing is in the general range of the KONI sports. They will be sold as a kit of four only as you must have it around the car for the system to work properly. There is no adjustment as both handling and ride comfort are optomized and adjustment is not necessary.


_Modified by bob45228 at 9:14 PM 8-4-2005_


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## Ceilidh (Jan 7, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Many thanks, Bob!

_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_.....There is no adjustment as both handling and ride comfort are optomized and adjustment is not necessary.

So there's no way to compensate for wear? (i.e., they're not adjustable even in the manner of the Koni Red/Special?)
Thanks again -- C


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Ceilidh)*

They will carry the KONI lifetime warranty. As with other non-adjustable shocks they can not be adjusted for wear. I expect that since the roll and transition forces are much higher wear should be much less noticable. I don't know the increase in low speed force on the VW, but on the Ford Mondeo (Contour in the US) the transitional and roll forces were 6 times higher than the KONI Sport for the same car. All KONI shocks and struts use teflon piston bands and teflon impregnated guides to reduce friction and wear. 



_Modified by bob45228 at 3:21 PM 8-7-2005_


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## Frank aka Rick (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: (bob45228)*

So questionly I ask what about us with 20th's/337/GLI's? Cause they are dropped about an 1" from the factory. Would these shocks still be usable or no go?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Frank aka Rick)*

If it is the factory lowered suspension it will work fine. All that you listed were factory lowered so ther eshould be no issues with them.


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## ewongkaizen (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Thanks Ceilidh and Pyce....
I was a bit sleep addled when I posted that.
Your explanations were most helpful....
I tend to think in "off road" suspension requirements rather than "road race" requirements and thus missed the main points you mentioned.
On a side note - as Pual Van Vaulkenberg pointed out in his suspension enginnering books - a PRIMARY advantage of active suspension had very little to do with suspension as we think of it an EVERYTHING to do with areodynamics....
Active suspension allowed JACKING the car. In particular - it allowed the angle of the rear wing (and thus the downforce) to be trimmed at will. So one could run a flat wing on the straights and a high downforce wing in the turns. Nothing as good (or as elegant) as the early Chapparal car with its divided pedal setup (there were 3 pedals and I think you had to lect foot brake - so that when you were on the brake - the wing tipped into downfoce, but when you were off the brake - the foot was on the wind holding it flat (no cluth - it has a torque converter)


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Jetta & Golf V*

Jetta V and Golf V sport shocks are now available. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Part numbers are 8710 1431Sport on the front and 80 2859Sport on the rear. FSD kits are also in the states.


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## tdigearhead (Mar 8, 2004)

*Re: Jetta & Golf V (bob45228)*

Good news for sure. Any word on FSD release for the MK-IV platform?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Jetta & Golf V (tdigearhead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdigearhead* »_Good news for sure. Any word on FSD release for the MK-IV platform?
 
_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_Golf, Jetta IV units will not be out until end of this year early next year. Jetta V should be in in the next two weeks. Most Audi applications are in as well.


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_Golf, Jetta IV units will not be out until end of this year early next year. 
Good. More time to save.










_Modified by briang at 6:20 AM 9-1-2005_


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (briang)*

Jetta V FSD kit part number is 2100 4001 and is in stock.


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## leicaman56 (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I'd like to hear some seat of the pants impressions with these revolutionary shocks. Would they be usable with the factory A4 Sport Suspension?


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

i saw these in my magazine ad also. ill prob try these after my KYBs get tired.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (leicaman56)*

They will work with any factory lowered suspension.


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## missmy8716v (Apr 8, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Will they be available for my 2005 Passat wagon?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (missmy8716v)*

I just found out they are on the developement list for the 05 Passat.


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## missmy8716v (Apr 8, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Sweet! Thanks Bob. Now all I have to do is find some springs that are a little lower than stock. Any suggestions?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (missmy8716v)*

We only reccomend FSD with factory lowered suspension.
Thanks,
Bob Noack


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I'll be keeping an eye out for these babies. I love my softsport/bilstein setup. Great for light track and spirited road. But I wouldn't mind a little more comfort on the streets if I can have my handling too.


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## NS01GTI (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: (traffic)*

Interesting that you say the FSD can only be run with Factory lowered springs... with MKIVs there are a variety of options... the GTI/WE 'sport' set up and the GLI 1.8T/20th AE set up. The 0.5" or so difference in these set ups doesn't make much difference I take it?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (NS01GTI)*

We know that FSD works at all factory heights and spring rates. With aftermarket springs you have quite a variation in available rates even with limited lowering of less than a half of an inch. This is an engineered system that improves ride and handling with stock springs. The problem is that the dynamics of the car (frequencies and available travel) will change considerably when you go out of the factory realm of spring rates and ride heights. Also when trying to improve comfort the worst thing you can do is lower the car to the point that it engages the bumpstops frequently.
Bob


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## tdigearhead (Mar 8, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Wonder how the FSD's will work on my car? 







I have a 2001 Golf TDI with factory VR6 front springs (ride height increased .250" max.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (tdigearhead)*

Should work fine on that application. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks,
Bob


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## tdigearhead (Mar 8, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















Thanks Bob. That should increase sales to quite a few TDI owners.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (tdigearhead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdigearhead* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















Thanks Bob. That should increase sales to quite a few TDI owners.
There was a write up on how these FSD Koni shocks work i beleive it was in euro tuner this month( not 100% positive on the mag ) , if you want some more good info .







Bob.G


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## a4tq (Jan 18, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_... Most Audi applications are in as well.

Bob - Will the R32 and TT use the same setup? Looking forward to trying it out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

The pic is huge, to make sure its very readable.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Applications and part numbers*

All of the items below are in stock with the exception of the Audi A4 which we have currently sold out on. We will have more for the Audi A4 in 2-3 weeks.
2100 4001 FSD GOLF V/JETTA AUDI 3
2100 4019 FSD 99-05 VW Golf IV, JettaIV - Avaiable mid November.
2100 4002 FSD '03+ AUDI A4 FWD
2100 4003 FSD '05+ AUDI A6 FWD
And if your other car is not a VW here are some other kits.
2100 4005 FSD BMW E46 3 SERIES
2100 4006 FSD BMW '99-05 E46 WAGON - out of stock
2100 4007 FSD 03+ BMW 5 SERIES SEDAN E60 - out of stock
2100 4008 FSD 03+ BMW 5 SERIES WAGON E61 - out of stock
2100 4009 FSD '02+ MERCEDES E CLASS
2100 4010 FSD '02+ MINI - out of stock - check with Mini Mania
2100 4014 FSD '02+ SAAB 9-3
2100 4017 FSD VOLVO 850/70 SERIES EXCAWD
2100 4018 FSD 01+ VOLVO S60/V70, 99+ S80

You can email KONI tech with question at [email protected] or visit http://koni-na.com/fsd 



_Modified by bob45228 at 8:43 PM 9-30-2005_


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## vw8 (Sep 1, 2005)

Here's what I got back from a Koni tech regarding Passat applications.
The Passat we will be listing is for the 05 and up V6. And this will not
be coming out until next year. Currently the W8 is not on the R&D list
for FSD but that doesn't mean that it may not be on the horizon.
The FSD is designed to be used at the stock ride height. This is due to
the travel that is needed for the FSD to work properly.
Thank you,


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## dadrew (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

What about the non factory lowered? Could I possibly use the FSD on my '00 GTI with 1" lowering springs? Or would I just be better off with the stock ride height?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (dadrew)*

I can only say that I know they work with stock height. When you say only an 1" is that from the GTI or the standard Golf. If it is an inch on the GTI that would make it about 1.75 on a Golf which is quite a bit. The main point is that you must have enough travel above the bump rubber or FSD will not work properly.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (vw8)*

The 97-03 Passat with front wheel drive has completed development and will be out shortly. I am not certain of when the W8 4-motion will be addressed.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I'm not so sure these will work well with the 20thAE, 337 GTI models based on what you've said about needing enough travel above the bumpstops. It seems like the only way to know is for someone to try it, and that may not happen for a long time.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Retrofit?*

Bob, does that thinngie (the additional valving looks like in a separate body on it's own) bolt on the existing shaft? Basically, can someone get the (let's call it "the amplifier"), remove the screw that holds the current spring tensioner for the rebound and bolt on this thing on and basically "convert" the ordinary Konis into FSD? It may need some tweaking as I guess the main rebound valve is different too, so to make it work properly, some adjustments should be done (I guess) but if mechanically can fit, the rest could be a small fun project!


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Retrofit? (pyce)*

In some cases the bodies and guides used are the same design. The rod design is a bit different the details are different. In many cases we use different damper technologies as we have eliminated some of their short comings. For example on the Golf V the rear sport damper is a twin-tube hydraulic. On the FSD since we can get ride of the high-frequency harshness we can use a mono-tube. Also in all cases the piston and springs are different as you can now generate more force at the piston. This is due to the fact that the FSD module by-passes the piston valving when appropriate to avoid harshness. Any application we bring out in FSD requires a complete re-developement of valving involving trial and error and driving the car during the development process. KONI developes all of our product with seat of pants feel and driving the car in the real world with prototype dampers. It is the only way to acheive the ride quality and handling we are known for.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Golf IV, Jetta IV*

Good news the FSD for Golf IV and Jetta IV has been produced and should ship next week to arrive in mid-November. Part number is 2100 4019, it can be pre-ordered on www.koni-na.com/fsd for $645 plus freight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Here are a couple of animations that explain the system. They are much larger than the ones on our site.
This one shows how forces changes relative to frequency.
http://www.koni-na.com/fsd/ani...1.exe
This one shows how the FSD mechanism works. 
http://www.koni-na.com/fsd/ani...1.exe 


_Modified by bob45228 at 9:57 PM 9-30-2005_


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## a4tq (Jan 18, 2004)

*Re: Golf IV, Jetta IV (bob45228)*

any projections for when the R32/TT application will be available?
thanks


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Golf IV, Jetta IV (a4tq)*

None at the moment if I here of any I will keep you informed.


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## DiB (Nov 25, 2004)

Looks like a good price, on the site for the jetta the front and rear have the same part#. Does that mean one would just get 2 sets, one for the front and one for the back?


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## Mike eee (Sep 16, 2001)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Will there eventually be a system for mkIII?


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## Chris W (Dec 14, 1999)

*Re: (DiB)*

I imagine $645 is for a set of four? I went to purchase at the Koni website and it displays:
21004019 99-05 Golf IV, Jetta IV (Exc. Wagon) *FRONT* 1 645.00 
is that an error or do we have to purchase a front and rear set $1200+


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Chris W)*

It should be a kit for $645 for all four. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Fixed the code that displays in the shopping cart if it is front or full kit. Sorry about the error.


_Modified by bob45228 at 1:39 PM 10-3-2005_


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## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_I'm not so sure these will work well with the 20thAE, 337 GTI models based on what you've said about needing enough travel above the bumpstops. It seems like the only way to know is for someone to try it, and that may not happen for a long time.

Bob-
Has anyone (customers or Koni NA) tried the FSD dampers on 20th AE or 337 springs? I'm trying to decide if I should go with VW Driver Gear springs + Koni Yellows, or 337/20th AE springs + FSD Dampers (if they truly are compatible).
I live in Detroit, so I'm trying to find the best comprimise between stance and ride quality.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (BUJonathan)*

It has not been tested at KONI NA, but I am checking on what was used and check on the original developement. When I hear word on this I will post it.
Thanks,
Bob Noack


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## Occams_Razor (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

>>Volkswagen 99-05 Golf IV, Jetta IV (Exc. Wagon)<<
No wagon application?


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## Bullseye (May 17, 2004)

*Koni FSD*

I've got the same question regarding the 337/20th AE application.
For reference sake, I cut and pasted some more detailed specs. on each of the available "Factory" suspension kits...
*Factory Sport Suspension*: 7% stiffer springs and shocks, 10mm drop
*DriverGear Sport Suspension*: 20% stiffer than stock, 30mm drop 
*337/20AE Suspension*: 20% stiffer than stock with 30mm drop 
Bob, Let us know what you find out. Thanks for your help.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Koni FSD (Bullseye)*

I don't believe that a 20th or 337 was tested. I will provide the data to our R&D people and keep you informed on the answers. I appreciate all of your questions and help.


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## Occams_Razor (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (Occams_Razor)*

Bob...
>>Volkswagen 99-05 Golf IV, Jetta IV (Exc. Wagon)<<
No wagon applications?






















Any chance the sedan versions will work?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (BUJonathan)*

I have check with our R&D in Europe, they have not tested a 337 or 20th. The best solution is for us to test them here. We are looking for a stock or atleast stock suspension 20th or 337. We would need the car for upto 2 days. In return you would recieve a free FSD kit. The parts would not be in until 2nd week or November so we would need the car around that time. If you are interested email [email protected], please do not IM as I will try to keep records of all that respond offline which is difficult with IM. We the car in the Cincinnati Ohio, Northern Kentucky region.
Thanks,
Bob


_Modified by bob45228 at 1:43 PM 10-11-2005_


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_I have check with our R&D in Europe, they have not tested a 337 or 20th. The best solution is for us to test them here. We are looking for a stock or atleast stock suspension 20th or 337. We would need the car for upto 2 days. In return you would recieve a free FSD kit. The parts would not be in until 2nd week or November so we would need the car around that time. If you are interested email [email protected], please do not IM as I will try to keep records of all that respond offline which is difficult with IM.
Thanks,
Bob

Don't forget the Jetta GLi 1.8T!!!







Similar front and rear ride height to the 337/20th AE. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Occams_Razor (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

And the Wagons?


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## DanSycks (Aug 30, 2005)

Sorry OR, looks like you don't get all the toys. =-)
Bob- You ARE going to send a set of these to Pyce to dyno test right. I mean he is the main reason most of the folks on here give a crap about them in the first place ya know. 
I sent tech a list of questions and look forward to hearing back. Thanks again.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (DanSycks)*

The problem with dynoing dampers like this is that a typical mechanical force velocity dyno will not show how the FSD works. You must test at different frequencies at the same velocities in order to have a good detail about how it works. This requires a specialized dyno. The Roehrig Engineering dyno that Pyce uses would not give a good representation of the capabilities of the shocks. I will see what I can do to get some graphs on this post.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I was able to get graphs on the front dampers at multiple frequencies. 








What you see on the graph is one single testspeed of 0.13m/s @ 1 to 9 hz, 1 and 2 hz will give the full force , from 3 onwards it will go down gradually.
The one on the front page from OE monroe is for a 4wd golf R32, it is position dependant and used to camouflage the inherent motion ratio problem for that specific axle.


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## DanSycks (Aug 30, 2005)

Thanks for the info. I sent a list of questions to the addy listed a few days ago but have yet to hear back from them. Any ideas on what their turn around time is? Maybe they just don't love the TDI guys? Tell them to remember that seeing as we save money on "gas" we have more to spend on other goodies to help us keep up with the other guys. =-)


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## Occams_Razor (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (DanSycks)*

And they really don't seem to like the TDI Wagon types...


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## dobbz (Mar 29, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_I can only say that I know they work with stock height. When you say only an 1" is that from the GTI or the standard Golf. If it is an inch on the GTI that would make it about 1.75 on a Golf which is quite a bit. The main point is that you must have enough travel above the bump rubber or FSD will not work properly. 

I'm curious if lower ride heights were considered in the design. On our cars, a 0.5" - 1.0" drop is the optimal height isn't it? If these are truly the last suspension we'll ever need, I would have expected Koni to come up with an optimal spring to accompany the shocks.
I'd be all over these if someone could tell me about ride quality with a 1.5" spring.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

I haven't even gotten my suspension installed yet and you damn guys have me thinking about getting different shocks when I've already committed to the ones I ordered. Grrrrrr


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## alexb75 (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (dobbz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dobbz* »_
I'm curious if lower ride heights were considered in the design. On our cars, a 0.5" - 1.0" drop is the optimal height isn't it? If these are truly the last suspension we'll ever need, I would have expected Koni to come up with an optimal spring to accompany the shocks.
I'd be all over these if someone could tell me about ride quality with a 1.5" spring.

They are not designed for lowered springs and that's the end of it. It also makes sense to me. Why would they design stuff for all aftermarket suspensions out there? The thing is, if you can get the stock ride qiality with lowered (stiffened) suspension handling... why wouldn't you want lowering? 
I believe most lowering those accomodate are the VW Sport Suspension lowered ones which is less than 0.5"... The reason as explained, is NOT to get into the buffers and anything lowers than 0.5" gets into bumpstops... So, to me it seems the only spring that could work on these are stock, VW sports, and maybe Neuspeed Sofsport, or H&R OE.... 


_Modified by alexb75 at 8:22 PM 10-20-2005_


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (alexb75)*

Found this post on the Jetta V forum about a person using FSD. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2237163


----------



## SinisterMind (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

How would these work with aftermarket springs that lower the mk4 GTI about an inch (i.e. Neuspeed softsport)?


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (SinisterMind)*

I do not expect that they would work very well. As a GTI is about 15-20mm lower than a Golf and you would be lowering an additional 1" which would put at about 40mm lower than a stock Golf. I would expect this to put the car on the bumprubbers which would cause FSD not to work effectively.


----------



## SinisterMind (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Normal GTIs (like mine) are same height as other Golfs. Only 20thAE/337/GLI are factory lowered.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (SinisterMind)*

Then it may work, but first I would like to see what happens when we test the 337 before I can make a better educated decision. FSD will genrally work in the 25mm lower than factory normal height. It depends on the amount of room above the bumprubber. When the car hits the bumprubbers the frequencies go up. When the frequency is high the dampers make limited force. This would mean if you run the FSD units on a car lowered to its bumprubbers it will be bouncy like a worn out shock.


----------



## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_Then it may work, but first I would like to see what happens when we test the 337 before I can make a better educated decision. FSD will genrally work in the 25mm lower than factory normal height. It depends on the amount of room above the bumprubber. When the car hits the bumprubbers the frequencies go up. When the frequency is high the dampers make limited force. This would mean if you run the FSD units on a car lowered to its bumprubbers it will be bouncy like a worn out shock.

Makes me think there may be an advantage to shorter foamy supplemental springs. (Bump stops) 
I'm wondering if I use the stock Jetta GL 2.0 Springs, Koni FSD and the "C" bumpstop on my wife's Jetta if I might gain an extra 1/2 inch of travel before the stop...


----------



## SinisterMind (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_Then it may work, but first I would like to see what happens when we test the 337 before I can make a better educated decision. FSD will genrally work in the 25mm lower than factory normal height. It depends on the amount of room above the bumprubber. When the car hits the bumprubbers the frequencies go up. When the frequency is high the dampers make limited force. This would mean if you run the FSD units on a car lowered to its bumprubbers it will be bouncy like a worn out shock.

Can't wait for the results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## alexb75 (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (SinisterMind)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SinisterMind* »_Normal GTIs (like mine) are same height as other Golfs. Only 20thAE/337/GLI are factory lowered.

Well, it depends. Most came with sports suspension, which is lowered.


----------



## SinisterMind (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (alexb75)*

As far as I know only the 20thAE/337 came with sport suspension. You can hide illegal aliens in my GTI's fender wells.


----------



## alexb75 (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (SinisterMind)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SinisterMind* »_As far as I know only the 20thAE/337 came with sport suspension. You can hide illegal aliens in my GTI's fender wells.

well, that is your perception. Go measure a Golf and compare it to yours. GTI is lower, although not by much. 337 is lower than that and visually noticable.


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## Bullseye (May 17, 2004)

*Re: Koni FSD (Bullseye)*

From my earlier post...

_Quote, originally posted by *Bullseye* »_For reference sake, I cut and pasted some more detailed specs. on each of the available "Factory" suspension kits...
*Factory Sport Suspension*: 7% stiffer springs and shocks, 10mm drop
*DriverGear Sport Suspension*: 20% stiffer than stock, 30mm drop 
*337/20AE Suspension*: 20% stiffer than stock with 30mm drop


----------



## SST (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: (SinisterMind)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SinisterMind* »_Normal GTIs (like mine) are same height as other Golfs. Only 20thAE/337/GLI are factory lowered.

Actually, the earlier MK IV Golf's that came from Germany were lower(ed) from the factory. I have a 1999 "New Golf" and the suspension was about 4" from Wolfsburg.


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## frugality (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228) How about with a lift?*

I know y'all will think I'm







because everyone here wants to lower their cars, but how would the FSD's work with a 1" lift? In Europe, a strut spacer is a VW option for rougher areas -- basically it's a 1" metal sleeve that's mounted between the upper spring perch and the bearing, lifting the car 1". I've seen the requirements about not using FSD's on a (non-factory) lowered car, but how about a 1" lift? Would that send the shocks out of their designed nominal range?
I'm one of those wierd TDI folks from over at the tdiclub forums.







I'm currently running Bilstein TC's (hate 'em) and a 2" lift, but would be willing to drop to a 1" lift if the FSD's would work in my application. 
Thanks...


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

we have a spacer here too.. 10mm.. prob the same thing.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228) How about with a lift? (frugality)*

As long as the factory strut is not different with the 1" raised option installed it should work fine as they are the same dimensions as a standard Golf IV, Jetta IV unit.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

The Golf IV, Jetta IV FSD units have arrived, part number 2100-4019. We have one order for a VW Vortex member which should leave today.


----------



## Chris W (Dec 14, 1999)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Yes! I hope that is me!!!
Ahh.. being packed up for shipping as I type. Im looking forward to this setup. Will be able to compare to a previously owed H&R sport /Koni yellow setup on last vw that while tight was extremely harsh by the third year I had them. 


_Modified by Chris W at 12:01 PM 11-8-2005_


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## banjomike (Feb 1, 2005)

*SHINE?*

How would these work with stiffer springs at roughly the stock ride height? Say 225 lb/in in the front and 200 lb/in in the rear? Would the stiffer spring cause the system to be underdamped at high frequencies?


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## banjomike (Feb 1, 2005)

*bob45228's chart*

I converted the data in the chart on page 2 of this thread into 'merican units so we can more easily compare it to the data that Pyce has extracted from so many other dampers.
frequency hz| displacement in inches | speed in in/sec | damper force in lbs
rebound
1 | 0.83 | 5.13| 301
2 | 0.41 | 5.15| 297
3 | 0.29 | 5.11| 276
4 | 0.21 | 5.10| 219
5 | 0.17 | 5.12| 157
6 | 0.15 | 5.11| 121
7 | 0.13 | 5.19| 106
8 | 0.11 | 5.05| 91
9 | 0.09 | 5.01| 87
10| 0.00 | 0.00| 0

compression	
1 |-0.79|6.30|-55
2 |-0.37|5.12|-53
3 |-0.26|5.17|-54
4 |-0.02|5.17|-54
5 |-0.14|5.15|-54
6 |-0.12|5.11|-54
7 |-0.10|5.24|-56
8 |-0.08|5.21|-55
9 |-0.06|5.14|-56
10| 0.00|0.00| 0



_Modified by banjomike at 6:48 AM 11-9-2005_


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## banjomike (Feb 1, 2005)

*bob45228's chart*

I converted the data in the chart on page 2 of this thread into 'merican units so we can more easily compare it to the data that Pyce has extracted from so many other dampers.
frequency hz| displacement in inches | speed in ft/sec | damper force in lbs
rebound
1 | 0.83 | 0.6161| 301
2 | 0.41 | 0.6180| 297
3 | 0.29 | 0.6128| 276
4 | 0.21 | 0.6123| 219
5 | 0.17 | 0.6146| 157
6 | 0.15 | 0.6132| 121
7 | 0.13 | 0.6231| 106
8 | 0.11 | 0.6061| 91
9 | 0.09 | 0.6014| 87
10| 0.00 | 0.0000| 0

compression	
1 |-0.79|-0.7564|-55
2 |-0.37|-0.6146|-53
3 |-0.26|-0.6203|-54
4 |-0.02|-0.6203|-54
5 |-0.14|-0.6180|-54
6 |-0.12|-0.6132|-54
7 |-0.10|-0.6293|-56
8 |-0.08|-0.6255|-55
9 |-0.06|-0.6165|-56
10| 0.00 |0.0000 | 0


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## Bullseye (May 17, 2004)

*Re: bob45228*

Bob,
What's the time-frame for testing FSD on the 337?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: bob45228 (Bullseye)*

As soon as I can get a car in here. I hope it will happen in the next 2-3 weeks.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Occams_Razor)*

I have check with our R&D in Holland and looked into the Jetta IV wagon. We see no reason why the sedan kit cannot be used on the wagon. That will allow all you wagon owners to put FSDs on your Jetta IV.


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## SST (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

I installed a set in my Golf the other day, I am very impressed. After suffering from a set of Bilstein TC's for about 25K, anything would seem better than these pieces of junk, which felt like being in a bag of rocks in the back of a delivery truck going over rough road.
These FSD's have such a neutral feel, they are almost boring. Minimal squat upon accelleration and very little dive when hard braking. Go fast around a curve and the car rolls slightly, locks in position and stays when following through the curve. Straight line driving at city and highway speeds have the same response: sharp hits from irregular pavement such as expansion joints, ripples give no slapback jolt to the driver. You know you went over them, but there is no drama. Falling off slow highway rolls, the car falls quick but evenly and when one wheel falls into a dip, the car remains flat instead of dropping into it. The feel of the road is now sublime.
In contrast, when the TC's went over expansion joints on the highway, my car buck like a bronco to the point if I was driving with one hand on the wheel, I would start sending the car off course from the thrust translated into my arm. Ripple on both the city and highway ( same frequency) would make the car shake in almost machine gun fire intervals. When one wheel would fall into a dip, the car would dive into it while the other three wheels tried to respond. By that time the wheel that dropped was hopping out of the dip. It gave the ipression of being in a boat, drifitng in the water and getting buffeted by waves. It almost makes you seasick. These things were awful. All this and they offered only negligable increases in roadhoalding around fast curves over the original BOGE's, which were pretty decent except they were dead by around 30K.
Some other info: My car is the German built Golf that were imported to the states in 1999 for the A4 chassis. This car came with the "B" bumpstops and since it is an automatic, it has the GREEN, GREEN, PINK, PINK springs that were also used on the VR6


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## silverbox (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (SST)*

Hello all
I installed Koni FDS in mt 03 Jetta wagon yesterday.
I have had bilstein and koni before in other cars throughout 33 years of driving.
but have never had a shock like this .
These are my first impressions; smooth and solid ride,smoother than oe sachs 
and way more control, this does not feel like the same car at all. so far I'm impressed.
will report more as i put more miles on them.
Other than The FSD kit and 10mm vw strut spacers my car is oem.


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## 1stVR6 (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Bob
Can we expect a B5 A4/S4 application in the near future? I'd love to try these in my B5 S4...


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (1stVR6)*

It is not on my most current list. I will check to see if it is coming and look to see when it will be available.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Dynoed them last night. No wonder people are reporting great comfort - these dampers offer the smoothest compression and rebound curves we have seen so far on VW dampers. More details next week, but the curves are really nice! And this is at the "low" frequency (standard dynometer) that the dyno can provide. I guess with increasing the frequency (decreasing the amplitude) they will get only better (lower damping in rebound). 
Will try to drive them with different spring rates and different ride heights to see what happens. 
The rears are high pressure (about 40 lb. push by just the gas leverage), but the fronts are very low pressure (you can move them with fingers). Which makes me think they are not mono-tubes, but rather Bilstein-TC-like twin-tube with high pressure (but only rear).


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

man.. after everything ive read about FSD in last month.. i think if i ever replace my KYBs, these will be the ticket.


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## SST (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (pyce)*

peter, you are right about the rears being high pressure. When I went to install them on my car, I had a hard time getting the FSD's on the lower bolts because I had lifted the the rear trailing arm at the wheel hub end with my jack, which meant the weight of the car was on the spring and consequently, the damper had to be compressed to get it into the lower bracket. The old TC came off pretty easy but to get the FSD in there, I had to rejack the car and let the trailing arm hang to get the FSD's in there. Sheesh!
The pressure raises my car in the rear a good amount. I think more than the TC's did. I recall that before my TC's, with the tired OEM dampers, the rear used to sag somewhat. The first thing I notices was how much the TC's raised the body. The FSD's almost make it look like a 4x4. Oh well!



_Modified by SST at 5:23 AM 11-25-2005_


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (SST)*

I'd love to know if thse will work with Shine springs. They may be the ticket to getting higher spring rates in front without the harsness HDs communicate.


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (SinisterMind)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SinisterMind* »_Normal GTIs (like mine) are same height as other Golfs. Only 20thAE/337/GLI are factory lowered.

Is this true? I just bought a Golf TDI with GTI VR6 springs and it looks pretty low. And the a-arms are higher at the outside than the inside. I've been thinking about getting some OE TDI springs to put in it to bring the ride height up a bit as it only has about 3" of ground clearance under the Evolution skid plate. But if stock springs won't raise it for better handling and damage control I'll have to look elsewhere. 
In any case I want to try these dampers with the springs I choose.


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## silverbox (Jul 21, 2005)

when i got my FSDkit i noticed the rear shocks were high presure so before installing the fronts i ordered the VW 10mm spacer to bring the front up the VW part # is i IJO 412 311A.
I wanted more ground clearence. the car sits up at 28 1/4 in the rear and 27 1/8 front on steel rims and 195/65/15 Khumo KW17's it definitley feels higher but with all the comfort and control it's great.I just got back from about a 300km road trip. handeling was wonderful, lane changes much faster with less steering input, way less roll.
The car felt so much more solid, secure and smooth, that it felt like a much more sophisticated car.


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

*Re: (silverbox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *silverbox* »_when i got my FSDkit i noticed the rear shocks were high presure so before installing the fronts i ordered the VW 10mm spacer to bring the front up the VW part # is i IJO 412 311A.
I wanted more ground clearence. the car sits up at 28 1/4 in the rear and 27 1/8 front on steel rims and 195/65/15 Khumo KW17's it definitley feels higher but with all the comfort and control it's great.I just got back from about a 300km road trip. handeling was wonderful, lane changes much faster with less steering input, way less roll.
The car felt so much more solid, secure and smooth, that it felt like a much more sophisticated car.

Thats KILLER dude... Just my kind of thing. I like those height numbers. I'm 27" height all 4 corners, on stock springs, KYB shocks. I def have to try these FSD when I feel like wasting some money.


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (silverbox)*

I'm glad someone's tried these on a wagon, and a TDI no less! I'd love to do a side-by-side drive with FSDs and Reds to see the differences. I'm very happy with my Reds so I must resist the urge to upgrade.
The 10mm lift in front is a good idea. I just peeked under my car this AM (OE springs) and the outer part of the A-arm is slightly higher than the inner. So the lift plus the better dampers should really improve handling.


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## NS01GTI (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: (silverbox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *silverbox* »_when i got my FSDkit i noticed the rear shocks were high presure so before installing the fronts i ordered the VW 10mm spacer to bring the front up the VW part # is i IJO 412 311A.
I wanted more ground clearence. the car sits up at 28 1/4 in the rear and 27 1/8 front on steel rims and 195/65/15 Khumo KW17's it definitley feels higher but with all the comfort and control it's great.I just got back from about a 300km road trip. handeling was wonderful, lane changes much faster with less steering input, way less roll.
The car felt so much more solid, secure and smooth, that it felt like a much more sophisticated car.

Glad to hear you like the FSDs John! Do you find they're rough at all on some of our crappier roads?
My reds should be here Wednesday and the springs on Thursday. We'll have to go for a spin shortly.


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## Frank aka Rick (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: (NS01GTI)*

bob, any word yet on how the fsd shocks would work with stock 20th/337 springs?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (Frank aka Rick)*

I am just waiting to get the car scheduled. This time of year is difficult to get a car in with all the staff at trade shows and all the Hollidays. It is a high priority but it is taking much longer than I would have hoped for.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Bob....
Why are the rears so highly pressurized, meanwhile the fronts are not? Lot's of folks here are after the looks of their cars and they will get rake just because of that. What's the goal behind this decision to pressurize them differently?


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*FSD rear dyno (force vs. displacement)*

Here is what it came from dyno-ing the rears:








It is very different than what the front dyno graphs show on Koni's site. Perhaps they are not only pressurized differently, but valved differently too. Will dyno the front one today. More later....


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

The rears are a high pressure mono tube like a Bilstein in the simple construction excluding the use of the FSD device. The amount the car raises is generally 10mm with a stock spring and would be a little less with a higher than stock spring rate. The Kit works quite well as I expect you have felt. The rears are currently high pressure gas as the twin-tube version of the 80 series for FSD is still in developement. I expect as time goes on they will be replaced with a twin tube hydraulic unit.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_The rears are a high pressure mono tube like a Bilstein in the simple construction excluding the use of the FSD device. 

Bob, I have very hard time to see the rears as mono-tube and here is why:
A mono-tube (like the Bilsteins you mentioned) can work inverted. That is - no matter how you mount the damper, it will work as the high pressure keeps the oil to be always on the side where the piston is, so the piston would go through the oil no matter what, and the oil would stay on that side no matter what. 
Now, a twine-tube (pressurized or not) have to be mounted with the rod up and the foot valve down. At least the ordinary Koni Yellow, Red and many others are like that. What happens here if we invert the damper and push the rod in several times? The oil from the inner tube would go out slowly with each compression, but it will not be able to go back as the damper is inverted and the return ports are not covered with oil. So, soon enough there will be some air in the inner tube and at that point we can feel it by moving the rod up and down. Basically, at that point if we put back the damper to correct orientation, fully compress it (but now with the air inside the inner tube) and then let go the rod - it will come slowly to a point (resisted by the oil) and then at certain point will pop-up much faster (when the oil level is over and the rest is just the gas left on top of the inner tube). 
You can not do the above "trick" with mono-tube, but the rear FSD can be made to do as described above. 
Bob, just to remind you, I am talking about VW A4 dampers, and hope you are not having something else in mind.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

The FSD Golf, Jetta IV rear is a 26 series mono-tube and should work the same no matter what orientaion it is compressed. It has a divider piston which separates the oil from the gas charge and should not be affected by orientation.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (bob45228)*

The rears I have are affected from orientation. Is it possible that I got something for a different car by mistake?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

There should be a part number on them. Let me know what it is.
Bob


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## silverbox (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: (NS01GTI)*

Donald the fsd seem to be smoother than oe on potholes and washboard. this is not to say you don't feel them they are just not as harsh and don't bottom as often yet the overall impression is much firmer ride with more control. look forward to going for a drive with you soon .


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_The FSD Golf, Jetta IV rear is a 26 series mono-tube and should work the same no matter what orientation it is compressed. It has a divider piston which separates the oil from the gas charge and should not be affected by orientation.

Bob, tried to see the number below, but it is rather long, so the damper turns around and it is all wet here, so could not get the final digits. The initials are: 2645 1031 250xxxxx. Do not even know how many are the "x".
Checked the Koni web site and indeed it says there that the 26 and 30 series are mono-tubes, but it also says they are adjustable, meanwhile this one is not.
Then there is the arrow pointing up saying "top", which is typical for twin-tubes. Why is that arrow there is the damper could be inverted? Thanks.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

26 is the base series 45 designates it as an FSD damper. I will check into this and get back to you tomorrow.
Thanks,
Bob


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Koni FSD Front Dyno ...*

Here is the front FSD VWA4 dyno and the curves look exactly the same as those posted on page two by Bob:








Very interesting damper, indeed. And with very high absolute rebound values, so perhaps this one will work with lots of stronger than OE front springs keeping them well controlled. Actually, looking at the pretty low compression, this damper looks like even better match for a stronger spring rather than an OE spring. Time and test will tell


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*The FS mechanism at work .... (rear dyno at 1Hz and 2Hz)*

And here is just a taste of how the FS mechanism begins to work when increasing the frequency while maintaining the speed. Did not have much time today, so for now there is just the 1 Hz and 2 Hz, but perhaps on the weekend I will pull them out again and will run wider range just to see how will the curves look:


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## banjomike (Feb 1, 2005)

*Can high freq input hide low freq input?*

I was reading the blurb on the tirerack site. Amoung other things it says, "Firmness for sporty driving on even road surfaces. Smoothness for a comfortable ride on uneven road surfaces."
This got me wondering. What about handling on rough surfaces. If there was high frequency input (roughness) at the same time as low frequency input from braking or cornering. Could the low frequency signal be lost in the high frequency signal rendering the damping ineffective? 
How about those who have these shocks. Take some corners hard on a rough surface and tell us how they behave.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Can high freq input hide low freq input? (banjomike)*

If you are in a situation where you are in a corner and hit a high frequency input you will want it to act properly in the high frequency bump by going soft. If it does not then the car will begin to slide as the wheel would be over damped. The FSD does not do that. It will blow off during the bump keeping the car in control.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Rear spring rates and FSD ....*

Some results from the weekend...
Koni FSD is a great damper, but it has to be used with relatively soft spring. 








Above it is pictured with a 400 lb/in spring and the ride is very uncontrolled.
Tried it with 225 lb/in spring and it works well, but "well" to me may be unacceptable for many, as the car is not really "flat" and the spring is not suffocated, but rather free to move around. If going for total "darter" feel, the rate must go down, otherwise there is little use of the wonderful FS system. 
Guess the ideal use of this damper would really be with OE springs or there about.
As a side note, that 400 lb/in spring can not be managed with any of the popular dampers, so I really wonder how folks go with such strong springs using their existing dampers? 
edited to fix a word.....


_Modified by pyce at 1:52 PM 12-5-2005_


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## a4tq (Jan 18, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (pyce)*

Pyce - I'm curious to know if you installed the front FSD's as part of the test, and if so waht your overall impression was? I recall seeing an earlier post to the effect that the setup works at its best when used as a complete set. 
I'm eagerly awaiting the release for the R32. The OEM US front springs are relatively soft (100lbs less than the euro version) and could be a good match for the FSD's. 
( I wonder if Bob can provide a range of rates that work best for FSD. )


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## SST (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Can high freq input hide low freq input? (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_If you are in a situation where you are in a corner and hit a high frequency input you will want it to act properly in the high frequency bump by going soft. If it does not then the car will begin to slide as the wheel would be over damped. The FSD does not do that. It will blow off during the bump keeping the car in control.

I can verify this first hand. My OEM dampers and the TC's that replaced them would always break loose on cloverleaf off ramps that were not perfectly smooth. Since installing the FSD's, I have not felt the rear jitter and skip going around curves any more. The road holding is far superior to any damper I have ever installed.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (a4tq)*

All I can say is they are engineered for OE rates. Those rates will change slightly with equipment but are generally reletively close to each other. This keeps the body frequencies in the range the FSDs were designed to work in. 
SST I am glad to hear how much of a difference you felt. When I was in the Jetta V we did here, it was hard to put how different it is into to words. Your mind is confused when you hit a bump you expect it to be harsh with the high level of control you have. Then you drive over a long stretch of bad road and when you come to the turn you expect it to wallow in the turn and it doesn't. It is a very different driving experience.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (a4tq)*


_Quote, originally posted by *a4tq* »_I'm curious to know if you installed the front FSD's as part of the test, and if so waht your overall impression was? I recall seeing an earlier post to the effect that the setup works at its best when used as a complete set......

Just the rears so far. Wanted to see how "far" we can go with spring rates. From the dyno looks like the front damper will be able to handle a stiffer than OE spring, so perhaps the FSD will be good all around for some not-so-low aftermarket kits that usually come with stiffer front than rear springs...... Now that everybody raves so much about these, guess the car has to go back to OE springs all around as to experience this new wonder


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (pyce)*

IF you haven't installed the fronts yet it's no wonder why you are so reserved. You will see the biggest improvement in comfort with the rears, the front will give you a large improvement in the handling department.


----------



## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Koni FSD is a great damper, but it has to be used with relatively soft spring. 
Guess the ideal use of this damper would really be with OE springs or there about.
_Modified by pyce at 1:52 PM 12-5-2005_

Err, isn't this what we knew about FSD's all along? Kinda stating the obvious after 4 pages. No?


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (MeetleBan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MeetleBan* »_
Err, isn't this what we knew about FSD's all along? Kinda stating the obvious after 4 pages. No?

And what exactly you knew about the FSD? What kind of precise information, related to real life data was given to you that we missed?


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (pyce)*

I'll not attempt to speak for everyone, but I'm sure a number of us are anxious to see what springs *other than* actual factory-issued / what-came-on-the-car are okay to use with FSD.
I'm sensing we all gather that FSD should only be used with springs that are within a certain *range *of OE, in terms of ride height and stiffness. Nothing aftermarket is a perfect fit on everything, but there has to be some +/- for both these variables that's okay with FSD. As with anything else we insist on messing with.
Once Koni and/or others can give that range of acceptable variation from stock, there'll probably be a lot less postulating about all this. Personally, I'm waiting for the word on mating FSD with SofSports, which, as far as I'm able to gather, are about the least of a departure from OE (height/rate, of course) that one can make....


----------



## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_
And what exactly you knew about the FSD? What kind of precise information, related to real life data was given to you that we missed?

Oh dear, I must have forgot to mention that I have Koni FSD's.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (MeetleBan)*

Having a set means nothing. Koni does not say what is the range of rates these can be used with. We have to find that ourselves, like almost everything related to aftermarket suspension and our cars. If you think you have some data to share, from some tests you have done - please post. If you do not - then saving space here will be appreciated.


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

LOL... anyone can post here. even tho ur the guru.


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (YikeGrymon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *YikeGrymon* »_I'll not attempt to speak for everyone, but I'm sure a number of us are anxious to see what springs *other than* actual factory-issued / what-came-on-the-car are okay to use with FSD.
I'm sensing we all gather that FSD should only be used with springs that are within a certain *range *of OE, in terms of ride height and stiffness. Nothing aftermarket is a perfect fit on everything, but there has to be some +/- for both these variables that's okay with FSD. As with anything else we insist on messing with.
Once Koni and/or others can give that range of acceptable variation from stock, there'll probably be a lot less postulating about all this. Personally, I'm waiting for the word on mating FSD with SofSports, which, as far as I'm able to gather, are about the least of a departure from OE (height/rate, of course) that one can make....
What he said. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (placenta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *placenta* »_LOL... anyone can post here. 

You are so right!
Come on guys, everybody, let's make this thread 30 pages. I am sure everyone has at least a word to say. Let's start with a list of who got FSD, and where did you get them from and how much did you pay. 
May bad to think this is a Technical Forum and for taking it too seriously.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

C'mon guys. Driving impressions are just as valid data as dyno graphs. Some of us are more interested in one than the other, either is helpful. This is an open forum for discussion of FSD whether it is data or impressions this is the place to post what you are measuring with your test equipment or your butt.


----------



## DiB (Nov 25, 2004)

Still waiting on the 20th/337/gli results.


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm gonna buy them to try them, and then I'll prob sell them for a 50% loss. Cuz they sound GOOD....


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (DiB)*

I don't think this is 100% yet but I think we will have a 337 during the week of the 19th of December. I will keep you posted.


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## Chris W (Dec 14, 1999)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_ 
SST I am glad to hear how much of a difference you felt. When I was in the Jetta V we did here, it was hard to put how different it is into to words. Your mind is confused when you hit a bump you expect it to be harsh with the high level of control you have. Then you drive over a long stretch of bad road and when you come to the turn you expect it to wallow in the turn and it doesn't. It is a very different driving experience. 

That is true to my experience on my car as well, its interesting to hear there is marked improvement on the Jetta V chassis too. Its pretty suprising at how much more sophisticated the car rides as the road changes compared to stock. It even seems there are less creaks/ groans now that the road is better dampened? That might be more placebo affect


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## tdigearhead (Mar 8, 2004)

*Re: (pyce)*

If we know the spring design parameters (objective data) for the FSD shocks/struts, than results can be duplicated/repeated knowing the spring rates & heights of replacements. Aka, the scientific method.
Subjective interpretations are not nearly as usefull (dare I say worthless) when another person is considering an upgrade ( *unless they can actually test drive the exact setup).









_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_
You are so right!
Come on guys, everybody, let's make this thread 30 pages. I am sure everyone has at least a word to say. Let's start with a list of who got FSD, and where did you get them from and how much did you pay. 
May bad to think this is a Technical Forum and for taking it too seriously.



_Modified by tdigearhead at 1:30 PM 12-7-2005_


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## Chris W (Dec 14, 1999)

*Re: (tdigearhead)*

There is certaintly nothing wrong with valuing certain types of data over one another, whether it be subjective or objective but is seems there is discouragement of describing this new product in terms of real world experience in this particular forum. Where would one post this? If people truly have issues over the material posted here, that should be taken up the moderators, dont discourage others.


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## fafner1 (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Just ordered a set of FSD's from Tirerack. They don't stock them - they have to order them from Koni - so it will probably take 2 to 3 weeks to get them.







Oh well, they should be here for Xmas. Now if I can only find a pair of 337/20th rear springs to bring the rear end back down. I really dislike the way high pressure shocks raise your ride hight. I remember the first pair of high pressure shocks I put on a Scirroco. Spent all afternoon installing my hot new shocks and when I got done the car looked like a 4 x 4.


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## pdxgrease (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (fafner1)*

they must have run out - i got mine in two days...
btw - maybe we need a purely qualitative "OMG I LOVE MY FSD's" thread... Everyone can rave there and then we can have a quantitative thread for the nerds who actually know something. 


_Modified by pdxgrease at 6:15 PM 12-7-2005_


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## Duck_Duck_B (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (pdxgrease)*

hi guys, i have a funny idea.......... I am driving a MKIV 2.3 V5, which is a very heavy engine. How abt if i only replace my front to FSD stuff and keep using the original in the rear. What will the performance like???


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (Duck_Duck_B)*

FSD is only sold as complete kits. They are not sold individually.


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## silverbox (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Hello all, i have another field report on the FSD on my jetta wagon. On fri day night we had 5 inches of snow which was packed by plows and drivers, by yesterday afternoon many roads were hard packed washboard. in typical Halifax style it began raining buckets today and those same roads are icy washboard. The FSD's handled it all with control and no harshness, I'm not saying I didn't feel it , it just wasn't harsh at all. The reason I coment on this is that on previous cars with firm shocks,this kind of road condition would be very harsh, over damped and skitterish. With FSD the car has the control of a very firm shock but without the harshness.Hope this is some help.
I'm planing a long road trip this winer I'll repot back after.


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## Duck_Duck_B (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (silverbox)*

You know wht........ I can't stand for it anymore! I have to order a set of FSD to taste the feeling





















hehehehhe. I am sure I will be the first one to install FSD to a VW in HONG KONG!!!!!


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (Duck_Duck_B)*

Just wanted to let you know more Golf IV, Jetta IV, Beetle kits have come in. You can buy them from my 2 dealers that took them all at http://www.classicgarage.com or http://www.suspensiononline.com. Just wanted to let you know where you can get them because not all of are dealers are stocking them yet. Just wanted to let you know who has them in stock at the moment for those who don't want to wait until next year.


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## IamGoofy (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

I still want to wait for Bob to put them on a 337..... post some pic too


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (IamGoofy)*

I have good new, and bad news. Good news is the 337 was test fit yesterday and was a huge improvement on the car. Bad news is that I was out yesterday to watch my son's performance and was unable to get photos of the car. The report back from R&D was that the car was raised slightly, about 1/4" - 1/2" all the way around. The handling and ride quality both improved by a noticable amount. So this means that KONI can give a definate http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif on this application.
Update: I got in touch with the person with the 337 that we test fitted. The car is currently on snows. This is the best I have at the moment.








Hope this helps, I will see what other data I can get for you.



_Modified by bob45228 at 4:59 PM 2-16-2006_


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## a4tq (Jan 18, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_.... The report back from R&D was that the car was raised slightly, about 1/4" - 1/2" all the way around. The handling and ride quality both improved by a noticable amount. So this means that KONI can give a definate http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif on this application.

This could be interesting for the R32. The euro springs are 15mm approx lower than the US OEM springs. 
If the upcoming R32 FSD's are similar to the mkiv appliction's (gas charged I guess) , then it may be possible use euro springs and have the car sit close to US stock levels.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (a4tq)*

The R32 application is planned to be low pressure gas, and not the mono-tube used on the Golf IV platform. I expect the car to have less of a ride height change.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Bob, I did a little test last night to see how much rear suspension travel there is before the rear bumpstops are engaged on a 20thAE, and it was about 1.125 inches. More than I expected. Given that, I'm not surprised to hear that the FSD's work well with the 20thAE, especially considering the FSD's raise the car slightly. These FSDs ought to sell like hot cakes now!


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## Marshmallow Man (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (groftja)*

^^^do you have any pics yet of a 337/20th/gli with these on there, or has anyone had theirs settle back to the stock height of a 337/20th/gli?


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (chitowndubz)*

Bob said that it will be slightly higher with these dampers.


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

Is this product planned to be released for earlier cars? My '87 scirocco is crying for a new suspension right now.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (kalvinlk)*

A2, A3 would not suprise me, but A1 if it were to happen would be quite a way off.


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## kalvinlk (Sep 9, 2003)

Alright, a set of Yellows it is then. Thanks for the quick reply, I am sure other A1 cars will find it useful as well.


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## DanSycks (Aug 30, 2005)

So what all are these available for now and what are the differences?


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (DanSycks)*

There are sticky threads that go into this in the suspension forum. I bet the info in them will bring you up to speed.


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## fafner1 (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

Just got a note from Tire Rack - the FSD's I ordered the beginning of December aren't expected tiill February or March (no firm date). Originally Koni had given Tire Rack a ship date of December 21. What the H! The guy who ordered a week before me got his immediately. Is Koni just not importing many of the FSD's? Or is Tire Rack on Koni's s--t list?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (fafner1)*

Actually the demand has greatly exceeded KONIs supply. Tirerack also has sold more than expected and sold out of the product as well. We are trying to get them in as soon as possible but worldwide demand for Golf IV FSD is much higher than we could have anticipated. I will keep you up to date I hope we may have them sooner than expected.


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD...*

I'm not sure if this question came up.
How do the harder rear trailing arm bushings on the 337/20th/GLi affect spring rate on the rear springs?
How would this affect the Koni FSD?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD... (alomI wolleY iTG)*

They would have a negligible effect on spring rate and I would expect no change in the performance of FSD. I suspect that they would just transmit more noise to the interior.


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## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD... (bob45228)*

Quick question.. 1 or 2 folks said the FSD's raise the ride height a little.
Since when did shocks affect ride height at all? 
I had my FSD's fitted recently, and i cant say that i noticed any difference in ride height, which is just what I expected.
Great shocks btw.. But not having used any other uprated shocks on my car before, its difficult to say how they compare with anything other than stock. 
Im using them with stock springs. Ride is a little firmer, but barely noticeable. Handling is a huge improvement in pretty much every respect though.
Im pleased with them http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NS01GTI (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_I have good new, and bad news. Good news is the 337 was test fit yesterday and was a huge improvement on the car. Bad news is that I was out yesterday to watch my son's performance and was unable to get photosof the car. The report back from R&D was that the car was raised slightly, about 1/4" - 1/2" all the way around. The handling and ride quality both improved by a noticable amount. So this means that KONI can give a definate http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif on this application.

Bob, can you get some pics of FSDs with 337 springs please?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (NS01GTI)*

Unfortunetly, the car is not avaialable to us it is about 5 hours away from here. I am aware of a texer with them on his GLI that may be able to get you some pics.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD... (MeetleBan)*

If you change from a hydraulic unit to a gas charged unit ride height can increase, it is usually a negligible amount of about 5mm.


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## NS01GTI (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Sure, that will be close since the GLIs & 337/20th AEs sit nearly the same.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (NS01GTI)*

You can try contacting Chris W he posted on page 4 of this thread near the end.


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## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Hey Bob,
I own a 2003 VW Golf GTI 1.8T, I was wondering if the FSD will also improve body roll, dive and squat?? since one uses the stock springs.
Max


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (max.f)*

That is exactly what it does without a loss of ride comfort. The car will feel much flatter and controlled. I have spoken with a couple people with VW A4s and both made the comment that the only thing that suffers is your gas mileage, because its so much better you catch yourself driving the car much harder. While on a long trip it feels like an OE suspension should and doesn't beat you up. Do a search on FSD in post bodies you will find many people opinions on this product that have installed them on their car I have yet to see someone disappointed.


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## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Thanks Bob, just what I wanted to hear. One final question, do you recomend using bars in combination with the FSD's?


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## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (max.f)*


_Quote, originally posted by *max.f* »_One final question, do you recomend using bars in combination with the FSD's?

I did intend to get beefed up arbs for my car (I assume thats what you meant by 'bars'). But ive been so pleased with the fsd's, that i dont think i need to bother with arb's now. 
Just get the shocks, and see how you get on. No reason why you cant add the arbs later if you are not satisfied. 
All im going to do is fit beefed up suspension and arb bushings, and call it a day for the handling department http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by MeetleBan at 5:34 PM 1-26-2006_


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## cgr (Dec 14, 2003)

Currently I have TC sports and they are way too harsh for my area and need something that handles the god awful rough roads around Western PA better while returning more comfort. I love how much the TC’s have reduced roll, dive, and squat, but they are just too harsh. Currently I have GLI springs on my Golf front and rear. I still have the original springs also. 
How much better are the FSD than the Koni Reds? Obviously they are better handling but which one offers more comfort?
The upside to the Reds is that I can change just the rear and improve the ride immediately without spending a lot of money and change the fronts later in the spring when the weather is nicer and the spare cash is there. 
The downside would be if they were too soft and the roll, dive, and squat increased too much. 
How much worse would the roll, dive, and squat be with the Reds than with the FSD?
Has anyone driven both on a MKIV yet?
Anyone around the Pittsburgh PA area with either one willing to give a test ride/drive?
Thanks


_Modified by cgr at 9:02 PM 1-26-2006_


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## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (MeetleBan)*

Hi,
Actually, by bars I meant sway bars. Do I still need a rear sway bars if I use Koni FSD's??
(BTW what are arbs?)
thanks,
Max


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## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (max.f)*


_Quote, originally posted by *max.f* »_Hi,
Actually, by bars I meant sway bars. Do I still need a rear sway bars if I use Koni FSD's??
(BTW what are arbs?)
thanks,
Max

arb = anti roll bar. Same thing as a sway bar


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (cgr)*

How much better are the FSD than the Koni Reds? Obviously they are better handling but which one offers more comfort?
>I would say they are near equals in comfort with the reds set to minimum. FSD is like a red at minimum on bump and set beyond maximum in the twisties, it give both without compromises.
The downside would be if they were too soft and the roll, dive, and squat increased too much.
>They are not too soft they are what you would expect in a good riding aftermarket shock. Less roll, dive, and squat than OE at minimum settting, but more than an FSD.
How much worse would the roll, dive, and squat be with the Reds than with the FSD?
>I can't really give you a quantitative answer to a qualatative question except to say that it is significant and noticeable difference.


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## cgr (Dec 14, 2003)

Ok, thanks Bob. I was planning on getting a MK V Golf when they arrived, but now VW is saying that there will be no TDI's until mid 07 or later and there will be no leatherette, leather, or climatronic options initially so I will have my MK IV for at least another year and a half. 
The plan was to suffer until mid summer and get a MK V and put the FSD's on immediately, but now just have to decide if I want to put that much into my current Golf. 
If the FSD's are as comfortable as the Reds, I will have a hard time not going with the FSD's although putting Reds on just the rear is attractive at $150 instead of $600.
How long until the FSD's are available again?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (cgr)*

They are due in the end of February. But you will need to pre-order as all are allocated to dealers. There are two possible dealers for that delivery. Tire rack and Paragon. Paragon's site is 
http://www.suspensiononline.com. Tire rack is http://www.tirerack.com.


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## stirfriedx9 (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Will the FSDs work on an MK4 GTI with neuspeed softsports (-.5F, 
-.5R drop) springs?


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## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re: (stirfriedx9)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stirfriedx9* »_Will the FSDs work on an MK4 GTI with neuspeed softsports (-.5F, 
-.5R drop) springs?

I don't mean to be awkward, but have you read the whole thread? 
The general consensus seems to be, to either use FSD's with stock springs (as I have) or use with springs that are of a minimal drop, and marginal increase in spring rates. If your springs fit in to that category, then I think you will be fine.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (stirfriedx9)*

I have no way of knowing I have not heard of this tried yet. Is the .5 below standard suspension or below the sport suspension. If it is .5 below standard most likely yes, if it is .5 below sport it is most likely no.


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## stirfriedx9 (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

The .5 inch drop is below the standard ride height. I was under the impression that the sport springs, like the 337's, were a 1 inch drop. I have no idea what the spring rate for the neuspeed soft sports is, but given that they are .5 inches heigher than the OE sport springs, would it work better with the FSDs?


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (stirfriedx9)*

IF what you say is correct and they stay off the bump rubbers they should work. Make sure to trim your bump stops to 337 lengths or replace them. If the Nuespeeds use bump rubber to control height it will not work as well as the oe sport springs.
Good Luck!


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I thought the difference in spring rates can render an aftermarket spring 'incompatible' with the FS damper.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

I suspect the spring rate of the eibach is not that different than the OE. This is just an educated guess. I have seen Eibachs used by some people in Europe on their GTIs. If you do a google search for 'KONI fsd forum' you will find it in there. 
Thanks,
Bob


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Eibach should be fine, I think their rates are 131/131, fr/rr respectively.
I was speaking of the Neuspeed, H&R, etc etc... either the rates or too low or too high compared to the factory springs.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

There is no magic way for me to figure out what works and what does not. I know as we have tested the setup with stock springs and it works. As you change the rates you will change the frequencies which can have an adverse affect on the ability of FSD to work. I know that much beyond 1" from standard ride height will definetaly cause issue. Bump rubbers are high spring rates which change the body frequencies dramatically. Significantly higher spring rates than stock are going to definetaly be a problem as well. I would say lowering of less than an inch with spring rate truly within 10-20% of stock will most likely work, but I can make no guarantees of this, only of stocks springs and rates. A perfect example was Pyce tried them on his stock height Jetta with a 400lb spring on the rear and found it did not work well. It is a matter of how different the body frequencies are and unfortunetly outside of stock it may require some trial and error.


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Does any one know the actual dimensions and weight of the box in which they ship the koni fsd's for a GTI MKIV??
I have decided on buying the FSD's but I live outside the States so I pay a service fee to a freight forward to send them here. This info will allow me to calculate final costs.
Thanks,
Max


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (max.f)*

30.5 Lbs Before over-packing so I would guess at 32-34 shipping weight.


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## 91pocketrocket (Oct 22, 2002)

Interesting thread from tyresmoke in the UK
http://www.tyresmoke.net/ubbth...65181


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (91pocketrocket)*

I had seen this thread before, but be cautious. The car is only lowered 5mm from what it had originally been. Also most US spec cars are heavier so even the same spring will most likely lower a US car more. This may cause the car to egage the bump rubbers and cause issues. Mind you I am not saying it will not work, just that it may not work.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I got in touch with the person with the 20th that we test fitted. The car is currently on snows. This is the best photo of a 20th on FSD that I have at the moment.











_Modified by bob45228 at 7:45 AM 2-17-2006_


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Bob that's a 20th.
337's only came in silver while 20th's came in yellow, black, and blue.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

I stand corrected and have made the correction.
Thanks,
Bob


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Bob,
Are there any updated shipping dates for the FSD's?? I have been checking the following:
http://www.classicgarage.com where I placed my order are saying march 17
http://www.tirerack.com have an estimated ship date of: march 28
http://www.suspensiononline.com say feb-mar 06
When do you expect the product to make it to the stores?
Max


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (max.f)*

If your getting them from the current batch they shipped either yesterday or today. This batch was completely pre-sold even at the dealer level. If you were not in this batch the next set will arrive the week of March 20th. We are trying to get them as quickly as we can. Let me know how you like them when you get them installed.


_Modified by bob45228 at 5:02 PM 2-24-2006_


----------



## Marshmallow Man (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

I can't wait, my suspension is falling apart and in need of these babies! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

i'll have to search to see if anyones put these shocks on a 06 GTI yet.


----------



## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: (placenta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *placenta* »_i'll have to search to see if anyones put these shocks on a 06 GTI yet.









Somewhere is a post from a MK V GLi user, they seemed happy....


----------



## SinisterMind (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (briang)*

Looks like FSDs will be my choice when upgrading suspension. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Koni. Had yellows on my 1st gen Neon and they transformed the car to a gocart. Seems like Koni gets it right all the time with FSD. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Mine just shipped yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll let you know how I like them, once I get them on.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (max.f)*

I have found out that one of the kits was not pre-sold. The dealer with a GolfIV, JettaIV, and Beetle 2100-4019 FSD kit is http://www.suspensiononline.com. You can call them at 800-200-9366. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## niner (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Bob, do you have an ETA for R32 applications? Any chance of pre-ordering a kit? Thanks!


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (niner)*

On the R32 rears have been produced, fronts should be built next week. That will put product on our shelves around the first week of April. They can be pre-ordered through any KONI dealer or on koni-na.com. The part number is 2100 4042.


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Hey Bob,
As you know I should be getting my Koni FSD's next week, I was just wondering if there are any other parts I should change when I get the FSD's installed.
note. My car has less than 10,000 miles, so the suspension should be in pretty good shape.


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (max.f)*

You would only need to replace worn items. I would expect that you will need nothing additional. The install is straight forward and exactly as OE.
Good Luck!
Bob


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

just replace the use-once items, if I had my Bentley, I would tell you right now
maybe later tonight, if I don't do my usual Friday drinkingfest


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

Thanks, I would appreciate that.
I actually received my bentley this week, but I've been busy at work and haven't had a chance to have a good look at it.
Max


----------



## ozstriker (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: (max.f)*

I just finished reading all seven pages of this thread ...post by post plus the other thread on the UK forum about using FSD+ eibach combo etc......
I'm really impressed about the experiences poeple are having with these and very interested in getting some of these if available.
I have been browsing the koni website for about 2 days now trying to find a part # for FSD's for my car (audi A4 1.8T quattro 2000 manual) with no luck.I think I just have a hard time understanding the website







but I see it says that the FSD is available for 2001/05 on other sites ( http://www.suspensiononline.com/category_s/210.htm ) but to my knowledge 2000/2001 A4's are the same B5 model and 2001 to 2005 if I'm not mistaken there is 3 platforms B5(2001) B6(2002-2004) B7(2005-200....) so how could they fit on 3 platforms with the same part number ??????? Unless my eyes mind is just F'ed up from all the reading and it means they fit on 2001.05 witch would still make no sence to me









do they even make them for my car ? 
do they sell them in canada?
and why doesn't Koni make springs to go with these if they require stock or close to stock spring rates/hights?


_Modified by ozstriker at 10:15 AM 3/7/2006_


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (ozstriker)*

The kit is for the B6 chassis I have corrected the years on the US site to be 02-04. I apologize for the confusion.


----------



## ozstriker (Oct 22, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

any news if a kit for the B5 will come out before june or july max ?
thanks for correcting the years thaught I was going crazy







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: More FSD experiences ???*

Looking for more experiences out there from FSD users? If you've put on FSD's, please give us your feedback of any kind! Thanks! 



_Modified by wishboneracing at 8:58 PM 3-13-2006_


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: More FSD experiences ??? (wishboneracing)*

Bob,
1) Do you have the specs on the FSD units on the Lamborghini Gallardo and the specs for the ones offerred to the mk4 VW's. Both units are made for different spring rates. What are the spring rates for the Gallardo?
2) How does 20th GTi springs + FSD compare to Koni's Sport kit? Does the 20th GTi springs + FSD match the handling performance of the Koni Sport kit?


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: More FSD experiences ??? (alomI wolleY iTG)*

With regards to your first question on the Gallardo, I expect that someone within the company may know them, but there is really no point to that. The suspensions have nothing in common. The spring rate without the motion ratio, sprung weight and unsprung weight would be of no help to any one on this discussion. Also I want to point out that the FSD unit itself is tunable and there are many different versions already developed as the need arises. 
Regarding your second question the 20th springs with FSD and the KONI sport kit will have similar handling and feel to each other. The FSD ride quality and handling will be better as compared to the sports at minimum. The FSD is like a red at minimum in ride comfort and a sport adjusted up in handling. If you are not interested in going lower than OE sport suspension FSD is the better choice. If you do want to go lower then the Sport is the bebetter choice.


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: More FSD experiences ??? (bob45228)*

The reason why I asked about the Gallardo is that some ppl are coming off on the idea that if this technology is good enough for the Gallardo then it's good enough for a mk4 VW.
Definitely wanted to dispell that bad conclusion.


_Modified by alomI wolleY iTG at 8:34 AM 3-13-2006_


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

It's finally here.
I'll let everyone know what I think after the install!!


----------



## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

Are there any plans to get this into the mkIII's?


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (abawp)*

FSD is too new at the moment we are starting with current models and working back. The last development list I saw did not include the Golf 3. I think that eventually it will happen, but I have no idea what the timeline will be.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Bob, I know you've mentioned this to me before in PM but I lost it . . . 
Are the FSDs for the Audi A3 high pressure gas or low pressure gas? Do you expect any increase in ride height from stock on the Audi A3 application? Thanks and sorry again for asking the same question.
Dave


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (crew217)*

They are a low pressure gas in the front and high pressure gas in the rear. I would expect it to be similar to the Golf IV in that at installation it may raise 10mm in the rear and after a short period of time return to within 5mm of stock.


----------



## ferchooo (Oct 18, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD Review*

First thing first, I just finished writting a long report and my computer hang up, so this is the second trial (which never comes up as detailled as the first).
I installed my Koni FSD's about 10 days ago (which isn't enough as to provide a fully objective detailled review).
First I must say I currently have 205/55-16 Goodyear F1's and used to have stock suspension.
Here are the before and after pics (I'm no pro photographer and I don't have extensive knowledge taking suspension measurements, so I did my best).








As you can clearly see my car has been raised, most notably in the back, from my approximate measurements the front went from 39 to 40cm, a 1cm increase from the center of the wheel to the bottom of the fender, and the back went from 39.5 to 42 cm, a full 2.5cm (1inch)
So basically YES I now own and drive a 4x4 Touareg look alike GTI!
I can say I'm very impressed from the overall result. Since the first drive after the install I can assure my stock comfort level was mantained, the car feels as smooth as my stock setup, and the bumps and pod holes (which are many where I drive) can be felt, but without any harshness, it's usual hearing the suspension sound, and the usual movements when hitting deep holes, but still it is actually even better than stock.
Regarding handling I can say I'm no driving guru, but my feeling is that the car has improved vastly regarding many aspects. First let's talk about diving: WOW!! before I used to feel the car incline hard when braking, now I can hit the breaks hard, and the car will come to a stop in a fast, secure manner without the associated dive (it is actually quite incredible the first times). Regarding squat it is also reduced, although it was never such a great issue.
Lets talk about corner handling, I can say my car feels stiff in the corners and twisties, I can push it harder than before and the tires don't howl untill later, it is as if the car had more grip. Also when driving with the ESP on, the light wont come up as often as it used to when taking corners fast.
Overall I can say that I love the FSD's and I would reccomend it to anyone looking for great comfort level, with improved handling. I can say it didn't turn my car into a race level sports car in regards to handling, but I can sure feel the difference and my car feels somewhat more secure in the road, at high speeds. It is amazing how the suspension is so smooth for driving in roads with pod holes, while siffening in the corners of good roads. I can say I'm not completely finished with my suspension mods since I still want more handling and performance. I have driven my friends sports Audi S3 with all wheel drive, and I can tell you, that car can actually grip the road in an amazing way at speeds I can't imagine with my GTI. 
With regards to look (which I don't care so much about) I was thinking perhaps some new springs Eibach Pro Kit (1 inch lowering) or Neuspeed Softsports or Vw Sport Suspension might do the trick, get the car to stiffen a little bit, with an inch lowering to compensate the FSD's. What do you think? Which would you reccomend?
I have also being reading the european post about FSD with eibach roll bar and I have been wondering if I should get a Shine RSB??? Do you think FSD's with eibach pro kit and a Shine RSB is a good setup? Or will this put too much stress in the bar, and end up breaking it??
Here are some more pics:
before:








after:








side view:









_Modified by max.f at 10:13 AM 3-23-2006_


_Modified by max.f at 10:48 AM 3-23-2006_


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: New! KONI FSD Review (max.f)*

I currenly have the following stock springs in front:
white, white, light blue, light blue.
Are these supposed to be normal or sport suspension?

_Modified by max.f at 10:50 AM 3-23-2006_


_Modified by max.f at 10:59 AM 3-23-2006_


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for your FSD impressions and info. Your car looks tall even in the before shots?
I've been looking for archived spring color code info too. Found this one which may help you.
This is also part of a monstrous archived thread with more info than you could possibly ever really consume about picking springs etc for these damn cars!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=24


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2481544
more good FSD feedback here - thanks all http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*

Today I had my car lifted, and I saw my rear springs are Green-Green-Green-Can't see.
The last color seems faded, either silver, white or blue.
Yes I too find my car a bit taller than usual even in the before shots, hence I believe some Eibach pro kit might take me to stock height. What do you think?
By the way, I also noticed today that my right spring hangs lower than the left one when the car is lifted, why could this be?
Max


----------



## MeetleBan (Jul 29, 2001)

*Re:*

Im really surprised how much higher that black Golf looks. I don't think I noticed a difference in ride height when I put FSD's on my Bug with stock springs.
Im not saying there isnt a difference, because there may well be one, but if there is, it isnt anywhere near as noticeable as it is on that Golf. I wonder if the Golf will settle a bit after a few more miles? Also, it did look higher than usual to start with to me.. Something odd going on there I think?
Either way, im not too fussed about ride height myself. Ground clearance and a decent amount of suspension travel (for handling as well as practicality on poor road surfaces) mean more to me than better 'looks' from lowering. The handling is light years better now, so im more than happy enough with that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by MeetleBan at 6:35 AM 3-25-2006_


----------



## grew (Jan 31, 2006)

*Re: Re: (MeetleBan)*

Just had the FSD's put on my car tonight. The first thing that one of the guys said was if my car was stock height and that they thought the car sat really well with the FSD's. I agreed. The car looks great. I measured before and after from the center cap to the top of the wheelwell and found no difference in height. definitely a good thing as people were saying it raised the back end of the car slightly. This was not the case for me.
As i pulled out of the driveway, the car cruised over the small dip of the driveway and onto the street much more smoothly that before. stopping at the stop sign i hit the brakes harder than usual and the car stayed MUCH more level and hardly dipped. The onramp to the 405 was where i first realized how much of a difference these FSD's make. the car felt much more planted and held significantly better than the stock shocks. The understeer was reduced, but a rear sway would probably make it even better. It was confidence inspiring.
The best part about my short comparison was the drive south on the 405 followed by the drive north on the 405. Now the 405 is an extremely poorly kept highway (to cut the state a break, there is always traffic so upkeep is difficult)
The FSDs did their job perfectly. bumps were MUCH less annoying and became "informative". Switching in and out of lanes was performed with ease and the car's response was definitely increased.


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Some results from the weekend...
Koni FSD is a great damper, but it has to be used with relatively soft spring.
[ edited for space ]
Tried it with 225 lb/in spring and it works well, but "well" to me may be unacceptable for many, as the car is not really "flat" and the spring is not suffocated, but rather free to move around. If going for total "darter" feel, the rate must go down, otherwise there is little use of the wonderful FS system. Guess the ideal use of this damper would really be with OE springs or there about.


Peter:
Can you elaborate? I know your comment above is sorta old now, though. What do you mean that the car is not really "flat"? What's it mean to speak of a spring as "suffocated"? What is total "darter" feel? Is your conclusion that FSD with a 225 lb/in spring is a *bad *idea? Merely sub-optimal? Perfectly fine?
Thanks. Sorry if these are pedestrian questions, but I can't imagine I'm the only one who'd benefit from some interpretation....


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (YikeGrymon)*

FYI the FSD kit for the Golf IV is available as of this morning at a few dealers. http://www.suspensiononline.com 1-800-200-9366, and http://www.classicgarage.com 1-845-940-1900. Both good companies to deal with. Also check on the Tex as I think some of the sponsors have them in stock as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## T-Red Tex (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (bob45228)*

So lemme get this straight, FSD's will work with Eibach Pro-kit springs
(1.2" drop F & R) for my MK IV Gti? That would be sweet!


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (T-Red Tex)*

Based on what I have heard on the Eibach product and that it doesn't sit on the bumprubbers, I expect it will be fine with the Pro-Kit.


----------



## max.f (Nov 27, 2005)

*Eibach Springs with Koni FSD*

I just installed new springs on my FSD's. I ordered the lower.kit from World Impex, part number Item #1J0071677B which I found from driver gear. The box came as an eibach pro kit, so once again the discussion between both eibach pro kit and driver gear springs being the same begins.
Anyway I installed them yesterday and changed my bump stops, to version C (shorter ones).
As of now I'm really happy with them, they aren't hitting the bump stops, and my comfort level is mantained. I will take pictures soon and give further comments over the weekend.
note. The car was lowered almost 1.5" (remember my car was really high though)


----------



## T-Red Tex (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: Eibach Springs with Koni FSD (max.f)*

Sweet! Looking forward to the pics and comments!


----------



## sh{}e (Aug 7, 2004)

*Re: Rear spring rates and FSD .... (T-Red Tex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T-Red Tex* »_So lemme get this straight, FSD's will work with Eibach Pro-kit springs
(1.2" drop F & R) for my MK IV Gti? That would be sweet!
















Would like to know also.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 7, 2006)

Lowering springs aren't really suggested with the FSD. 
When the suspension hits the bumpstop, the frequency of movement changes dramatically, causing the suspension to think it's underdamped. It'll cause the FSD valving to freak out.
Running on a lowering spring will cause you to hit the bumpstop more often which in general won't make for a good comfortable ride as expected with the FSD.
If you're running a real conservative lowering spring, and you trim the bumpstops down, I can certainly see the setup still working quite well. We've had some customers report no problems with such a setup.


----------



## ldelgado (May 25, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hello there,
I'm also considering upgrading to Koni FSD's. I've an european Golf IV 1.9 TDI 150hp with OEM Sport Suspension (-10mm).
The only thing I'm concerned about is the (very) noticeable height increase. Is this a permanent issue or does the car height come back to normal after a while?
Thanks.


_Modified by ldelgado at 5:05 PM 5-25-2006_


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (ldelgado)*

It usually settles to around 5mm above where it sat originally. A few people around Vortex should be able to confirm that as well.


----------



## smm_ww (Jun 6, 2006)

Bob,
Have you been able to try FSDs on your Passat yet? Do they significantly reduce the roll, squat, dive & float?
Are they OK with 1BE springs (UK spec 1.9TDi estate (wagon) with factory sport suspension) - I've been unable to get an answer via Koni distributors in the UK.


----------



## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: (smm_ww)*

So is there feedback with Passat/A4 owners?
I have a b6 avant 1.8t that I'm trying to make track worthy. It's still a daily driver so not interested in lowering the car. Or sacrificing comfort to get that extra bit of performance 4x a year.
I thought FSD shocks, upgrade brakes, summer tires should do it for lapping days.


----------



## Marshmallow Man (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: (traffic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *traffic* »_So is there feedback with Passat/A4 owners?
I have a b6 avant 1.8t that I'm trying to make track worthy. It's still a daily driver so not interested in lowering the car. Or sacrificing comfort to get that extra bit of performance 4x a year.
I thought FSD shocks, upgrade brakes, summer tires should do it for lapping days.

EXACTLY! They do it perfectly, I love em and everyday more and more they amaze me. I like them for the 4 or 5 times a year I go trackin and then the 360 other days I drive to get me somewhere


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (chitowndubz)*

I have not been able to put the FSDs on my Passat as of yet. They are still in transit from Holland for the FWD cars. They are supposed to be in this week. I am really looking forward to it and will let you know as soon as I have them installed. The 1BE suspension should not be an issue. I will report back as soon as I get them installed. 
We have done a few more customer cars with FSD for test fits in the last couple of months and I have to say that I am really more impressed as time goes on. The perfect example was a 2006 GLI we did about a week to 2 weeks ago. About 8 of us here try to get rides or drive the cars before and after. When we got the GLI all 8 of us were concerned after driving or riding in it as the car felt so good to begin with that we thought we may not make an improvement on the car, or only improve ride with some handling loss or improve handling with some ride loss. When we were done we were all smiles. The car handled better and cornered flatter. The ride made the car feel like you took off the 17s and put on some 14s or 15s. It was a remarkable difference. It makes me want them for my Passat that much more.
I still havn't changed the original shocks from the car after having it for 6 months, and they have 108k miles. It's getting really underdamped especially with weight or over large undulations in the road. I am looking forward to something different.


----------



## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Hm, makes me even more curious.
My b6 avant weighs 3600lbs. Even with the factory sport suspension, it still sits hard on the bumpstops in corners. With mid corner bumps and dips, it can really start wallowing and losing grip. Thank goodness for awd and I can just stay on the gas and keep things together without any problems. But wouldn't mind reducing the drama. Especially if I am to take this car to the track.
I just don't want to put stiffer springs and dampers since I drive this car on the street most of the time. And in quite toned down fashion to boot.
I have noticed that after 20k miles, the shocks are showing signs of wear. Rebound from bumps is too weak. Since the compression is a bit weak as well, I hit the bumpstops hard and then bounce back. Most normal people wouldn't even notice, but after changing my springs a shocks a bunch of times on the GTI, I've developed a sensitive butt.
The thought of having more control, yet more comfort is very attractive. Since the Avant already sits nicely, not really concerned about lowered look of the car.


----------



## back2school (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: (traffic)*

IF and when somebody gets the FSD and pairs them up with the Eibach Pro Kit for MKIV...PLEASE, PLEASE post your experiences and pics.
I am currently running H&R DBs and am not happy with the ride. I purchased them last year with the intention of raising for winter and lowering for the other seasons...as it turns out the car won't be driven in the winter. I would like a setup that lowers the car *slightly* (maybe 1.5" at most) - somewhere between "stock" and "race" performance (I guess that would be "Sport"), placing more emphasis on ride quality rather than looks. The FSDs have really piqued my interest http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by back2school at 5:22 PM 6-7-2006_


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (back2school)*

Any Mk5 GTI owners in here?
I'm interested in getting the FSDs for my GTI. But, I would also like my car to be a tad bit lower than it is stock. I've heard the FSDs can be used with the eurosprings... anyone done this?


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (digitalhippie)*

We have done some testing with the Eibach pro with FSD on the Jetta V and an Audi A3. Both were quite impressive. Nothing but improvements in all categories. The Jetta V was a GLI and was much better overall.


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Do you know what the drop was like front/back with that combo?


----------



## ldelgado (May 25, 2006)

*Re: (bob45228)*

That's good news bob... how many miles have you run with them like that? I've read different reports on using the FSDs with Eibach Prokit... I remember that on one of them - Golf V I think - the rear of the car rised considerably after a few miles with that setup...


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (ldelgado)*

On the Jetta GLI with pro-kit and FSD it was 30mm lower in the front and 22mm lower in the rear.


----------



## digitalhippie (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

thx for the info bob http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## glasskopf (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Bob - when you guys tested the 20th setup, did you use the stock bumpstops or did you cut-down/find shorter ones?
Thx!


----------



## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (glasskopf)*

The car was a 20th to begin with. We put all the standard bumpstops back on. If retrofitting a non-20th with the 20th springs and FSD you may need to trim or replace the bumpstops.


----------



## ldelgado (May 25, 2006)

*Re: (bob45228)*

How much do the 20th springs drop? Are they similar to Sport OEM springs or lower? Thanks.


----------



## glasskopf (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: (ldelgado)*

Lower than OE sport (i.e. GTI) by about a half inch to an inch.


----------



## glasskopf (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Thanks for the reponse Bob...I know I'm going to need to shorten the bump stops, I was just trying to figure out if you guys got shorter ones for the 20th setup to give the suspension more travel.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 2.5MODSPLZ!! (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (glasskopf)*

should i shorten the bumpstops on my mkv jetta on eibach pro kits, i don' think it will hurt..


----------



## 2.5MODSPLZ!! (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: (glasskopf)*

should i shorten the bumpstops on my mkv jetta on eibach pro kits, i don' think it will hurt..


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## pdxgrease (Dec 10, 2004)

So the verdict about GLI springs (+bumpstops) and fsd's on a mkIV jetta is positive? Are gli springs the same as 337's and 20th's? I want to put some oem lowering springs on but not if it adversly affects the fsd's. Bob can you clarify this like butter? Yes I have read this thread, and still can't make out if it's positive to do this.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (pdxgrease)*

On the MKIV platform there are now a few options. 337, 20th, and GLI OE springs as well as the stock OE spring. KONI has also been testing and in cooperation with Eibach is releasing an FSD shock and Pro-Kit combination. They will cost roughly 5% under the springs and FSDs separately. They make the same significant changes to ride and handling as well as lower the car about 1.2”. The product is being released to KONI dealers this week and kits are available. The FSD/Eibach kit comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee as well. I am still in the process of updating the http://www.koni-na.com  website, but more details should be on the site by the end of the week.


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## pdxgrease (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

nice - that's the ticket - let me know where i can buy those springs when the time comes.


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## IamGoofy (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: (bob45228)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_On the MKIV platform there are now a few options. 337, 20th, and GLI OE springs as well as the stock OE spring. KONI has also been testing and in cooperation with Eibach is releasing an FSD shock and Pro-Kit combination. They will cost roughly 5% under the springs and FSDs separately. They make the same significant changes to ride and handling as well as lower the car about 1.2”. The product is being released to KONI dealers this week and kits are available. The FSD/Eibach kit comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee as well. I am still in the process of updating the http://www.koni-na.com  website, but more details should be on the site by the end of the week. 

Are the FSD's w/ Eibach Pro springs valved slightly different? Any pictures of it on a 20th?


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## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bob45228* »_On the MKIV platform there are now a few options. 337, 20th, and GLI OE springs as well as the stock OE spring. KONI has also been testing and in cooperation with Eibach is releasing an FSD shock and Pro-Kit combination. They will cost roughly 5% under the springs and FSDs separately. They make the same significant changes to ride and handling as well as lower the car about 1.2”. The product is being released to KONI dealers this week and kits are available. The FSD/Eibach kit comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee as well. I am still in the process of updating the http://www.koni-na.com  website, but more details should be on the site by the end of the week. 

Bob-
First off, are these springs the same as 337/20th/GLI/VW Driver's gear? Or are they the same as off-the-shelf Prokits? Or, are they a unique spring specifically for the FSD application?
Next, are 20th/337/GLI bump stops required?
And finally, is a new front sway bar required (for clearance)?
EDIT: I'll 2nd the request for pics (Golf/GTI please!).
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







to koni for listening to customers and responding!


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (BUJonathan)*

If these are the aftermarket Eibach Pro springs, how would FSD's "lifting" results affect the final ride height... or has this been calculated already? So the advertised 30mm drop is really 30mm.
I have H2Sport drop spindles so I can afford a 30-35mm drop without skewing the mk4 MacPherson suspension geometry.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

The kit as it is configured is an eibach pro-kit spring with the FSD shock and strut. The rear of car may lower a little less by up to roughly 5-8mm. The advertised drop is currently the Eibach published drop for the car. We would reccomend that you install the springs as Eibach reccomends. I am not aware of any need for a front swaybar change for ride height changes of 30mm or less.


_Modified by bob45228 at 2:37 PM 7-27-2006_


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## pdxgrease (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: (bob45228)*

can the stock tdi bumpstops be used with the eibach pro-kit springs?


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## crazy88 (Jul 11, 2003)

neuspeed is now selling kits w/ their sport springs + fsd for the mk4 (incl tt, r32) + mk5...
http://neuspeed.com/products/p...=1964
i called them + they've had a test car running this setup for a few wks w/ no problems


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (crazy88)*

Isn't it kinda misleading the public by Neuspeed calling their FSD+Neuspeed springs kit the Pro Cup kit?
If I was glancing through, I would assume Neuspeed offers the FSD+Eibach Pro springs.


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## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *alomI wolleY iTG* »_Isn't it kinda misleading the public by Neuspeed calling their FSD+Neuspeed springs kit the Pro Cup kit?
If I was glancing through, I would assume Neuspeed offers the FSD+Eibach Pro springs.

I wonder how well the FSD's do with the Neuspeed Sports... they lower quite a bit (IIRC, 1.5"). Interesting...


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (BUJonathan)*

there's a fellow with the Neuspeed Sport springs and it didn't lower the ride much
from what i remember, the IY 20th with the neuspeed + fsd appeared a tad higher than stock 20th


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## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *alomI wolleY iTG* »_there's a fellow with the Neuspeed Sport springs and it didn't lower the ride much
from what i remember, the IY 20th with the neuspeed + fsd appeared a tad higher than stock 20th

Neuspeed Sports or Neuspeed *Sof*sports?
If Neuspeed is truly sucessfully pairing Neuspeed Sports + FSDs + DieselGeek Skidplate, might be the perfect combo for people like me that have to drive rough Detroit roads.
Otherwise, I'm thinking H+R OE Sports and Bilstien TCs or Koni Yellows.


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## crazy88 (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: (BUJonathan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BUJonathan* »_Neuspeed Sports or Neuspeed *Sof*sports?


"sports" for all applications


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (crazy88)*

1.5" drop all around w/ FSD...
What is the spring weight for Neuspeed Sport springs?
Crazy88m, can you ask Neuspeed to post pics of their test vehicle?


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## crazy88 (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

for the mk5, the sport springs are 1.2/1.5 vs 1.2/1.2 for the eibach



_Modified by crazy88 at 8:55 PM 8-9-2006_


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## dadrew (Aug 4, 2005)

So what everyone is saying is that to get a drop on my '00 GTi, I'd have to get version C bumpstops with 20th AE springs or I could get some Eibach Pro Kit springs and the FSD without modifying the bumpstops.
I really want to have the FSD's but I want to close that fender gap a little bit at the same time.

Thanks.


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## crazy88 (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: (dadrew)*

bumpstops for the mk5 gti...
us-spec = 70mm f, 135mm r
euro-spec = 55mm f, 118mm r
diff = 15mm f, 17mm r
if the neuspeed might be too low b/c of the extra 0.3" in the back, running the euro bumpstops would make-up the diff, + then some


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## n0z1 (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Anyone who's switched to FSD while sticking with the stock spring: How much did it raise the car f/r, and what's your experience compared with the stock dampers in terms of comfort and ride? 
I have a Mk4 Jetta with stock everything and I'm torn in deciding between getting FSD-only or the FSD kit w/ Eibach. I've read that people are hitting bumpstops often with the Prokit and it makes me hesitant. On the other hand if the springs won't be impacting the comfort level of the ride then I'd want to get the springs as well. Basically I'd rate comfort a notch above handling in my decision. 
Appreciate if anyone could give some opinion on this. Thanks in advance!


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## n0z1 (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: (n0z1)*

Well, after going through this:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=621342
I'll be sticking with stock springs and just get the FSDs. 
Getting new front/rear strut mounts plus the TT rear lca bushing as well. Is there anything else?
I've tried out the Bilstein TCs and they're rather bouncy. Really looking forward to the increase in comfort + handling that everyone's been raving about.


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## tiptronic (Apr 18, 1999)

*Re: (bob45228)*

Bob- 
I'm sorry to bother you with this question. And/if or anyone has any feedback, i'd appreciate your response. 
I've been shopping for shock replacement for my 1999 PASSAT 1.8t wagon with 17x7 wheels. Currently on Eibach Springs and dampers--but am steering to rid of the the Eibach springs back to thE OEMS/stock and hopefully FSD dampers. The reason for the OEM springs is better clearance. But i've been reading up different reviews from the GolfGtiJetta crowd about the ride height affects. 
I havent had any success of finding a B5 owner that has installed FSDs on their car- either with lowered springs, or stocks.
I'm a bit confused on the information that the FSDs raises the car a bit? (or mostly the rear- but again, under MK4/Mk5 golf/jetta models, nothing on the Passats..







) 
I WOULD DEFINITELY KEEP my Eibach Pros springs if the FSD indeed raises the car a bit. a half inch or just a tad bit clearance would help. 
If it doesn't - then I've be okay to go back to OEM Passat springs, and paired with the FSD. I want comfort, and controlled ride, same time with proper clearance where i'm not concerned about small dips, or having to avoid or cringe everytime i have to drive over a 3inch/diamater piece of rock(s) that occasionally litters my route (canyons). I remember ripping part of my lower engine shield when i ran over a dead raccoon... 
As mentioned, about 15 percent of my ride is via the canyon curves, 85 percent freeway/streets-- that is not so well engineered. Out of that one way trip from home to work- the car is at stable ride (smooth roads) at only 50% of the time. 
Your help or input would be greatly appreciated.
e


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (tiptronic)*

Although I still have not had a chance to mount my front shocks on my 2001 b5 I can tell you that the ride height in the rear I believe is unaffected, at least I do not notice any change. Both the OE units and the KONI FSD are low pressure gas twin tube units. As soon as I get a chance to change the fronts I will do so and let you know. I am just looking for a stretch of warm weather as I do not have access to a garage. Sorry for the delay in the response I must have missed your post.


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## badbidet (Sep 13, 2005)

sorry I didnt read the 9 first pages, but will the fsd come in coilovers as well? an upgrade to existing koni coils would be really cool imo. just a thought.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (badbidet)*

FSD will not work with a coil-over due to its need to be clear of the bumpstops.


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## eyke (May 8, 2007)

*FSD for rest-of-the-world Ford Focus Mk1?*

Hi Bob,
Would you be able to find out when FSD would be available for Ford Focus Mk1 (rest-of-the-world, not the American Focus)?
Thanks in advance.


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## badbidet (Sep 13, 2005)

can you run FSD's in the rears with koni lowering springs? I dont like my rear adj. konis.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: FSD for rest-of-the-world Ford Focus Mk1? (eyke)*

On the Focus are you speaking of the 98-04? I expect that there will be no FSD for that vehicle as I don't think we will be revisiting any older vehicles than we already have.


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (badbidet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *badbidet* »_can you run FSD's in the rears with koni lowering springs? I dont like my rear adj. konis.

No I do not think they would work, and you would have to buy a full kit just to get the pair. What do you not like about the rears?


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## eyke (May 8, 2007)

*Re: FSD for rest-of-the-world Ford Focus Mk1? (bob45228)*

That's discrimination! Ageism! Is a year 2003 model already considered obsolete?
Thanks anyway


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## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (bob45228)*

Bob,
Am I correct to say that if the FSD are compatible with stock springs, then the maximum spring rate is 170lb/in as seen in pyce's spring rate chart.
http://peterpyce.com/Shine/VW-All-Spring-Rates.jpg
That's being said can Eibach provide the same Pro spring drop at a spring rate of 170lb/in with matching 'progressive' springs in the rear?

- Alex


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## bob45228 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: New! KONI FSD (alomI wolleY iTG)*

I honestly do not know what the rates of the Eibach are for any particular pro-kit. In most cases we actually put the Eibach and FSD on the car and drive it. If we think the results are appropriate we release it. In situations where it does not work (Mini Cooper) we do not offer it. Calculations, numbers and models only go so far in most cases it just makes more sense to drive the car.


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## dovdub (Feb 14, 2011)

Anyone know if the fsd will be coming out for the jetta mk3 sometime soon?


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

I've noticed the MkIV rear spring rate is higher than the front by a particular ratio. For example, my 2004 Front/Rear lb/in rates are roughly 140/150. I'm just taking a blind stab at this, but I'm assuming it was designed such as to satisfy under-steer/over-steer balance. 

If this is true, take into consideration the spring rates of Shine's RSS kit. For 4cyl MkIVs, the F/R lb/in rates are 225/180, and I assume are spec'd for Shine's RSB. Also included in the kit. 

So, after observing the OEM spring rates compiled by Peter and taking into consideration that Koni developed the FSD dampers for use with OEM springs, I've come to the un-verified conclusion that the following spring rates with Koni FSD dampers would yield satisfactory results.... 

Again, this is pure speculation. 

Without adding a RSB of any sort... F: 170 / R: 180 
With a RSB, such as Shine's RSB... F: 180 / R: 155 

.....oh yeah, this would be with linear springs, of course. 


If anyone with more knowledge than I obviously have, would care to evaluate what I'm on about, please, I'd be much obliged to have my assumptions validated or the contrary. :beer:


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