# TT-RS APR Stage 3 details from Waterfest this weekend?



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Did anybody here go to Waterfest and get the details on the TT-RS APR Stage 3, including snapshots of dyno curves, power on 91/93 pump fuel, pricing, release dates, etc?

Also any details on the 2-disc carbon clutch would be swell.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Marty said:


> Did anybody here go to Waterfest and get the details on the TT-RS APR Stage 3, including snapshots of dyno curves, power on 91/93 pump fuel, pricing, release dates, etc?
> 
> Also any details on the 2-disc carbon clutch would be swell.


pal is there. I had C&C today with my local group.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes, I thought we would definitely see some details posted by now with the "hints" which were posted this past week about Waterfest and APR's fabeled Stage 3 for the Audi TT-RS finally seeing the light of day (publicly)


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> Yes, I thought we would definitely see some details posted by now with the "hints" which were posted this past week about Waterfest and APR's fabeled Stage 3 for the Audi TT-RS finally seeing the light of day (publicly)


You'd think there's be some public announcement coinciding with the first day, but surprisingly, nothing.

I hope someone reports back.


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## [email protected] (Dec 27, 2012)

Marty said:


> You'd think there's be some public announcement coinciding with the first day, but surprisingly, nothing.
> 
> I hope someone reports back.


$11,700, 700 bhp on 100 octane.

I believe 638whp was the highest recorded, Ernie would know.

The pump gas map is well over 500whp IIRC. We had the TTRS HPFP on sale too.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> $11,700, 700 bhp on 100 octane.
> 
> I believe 638whp was the highest recorded, Ernie would know.
> 
> The pump gas map is well over 500whp IIRC. We had the TTRS HPFP on sale too.


Thanks. Shipping when? Intercooler sold separately? Clutch sold separately? HPFP sold separately?


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> $11,700, 700 bhp on 100 octane.
> 
> I believe 638whp was the highest recorded, Ernie would know.
> 
> The pump gas map is well over 500whp IIRC. We had the TTRS HPFP on sale too.



HPFP is interesting considering comments in the past made about the Loba HPFP by APR.

Some actual details would be great, so that we don't have to speculate...


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> $11,700, 700 bhp on 100 octane.
> 
> I believe 638whp was the highest recorded, Ernie would know.
> 
> The pump gas map is well over 500whp IIRC. We had the TTRS HPFP on sale too.



INB4 Dan gets in here with OMGWTF MY SRT4 TURBO ONLY COST 65 CENTS.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

Roflmaoomgyouareso****ingfunnywtf....Hahahaha..... Eat a dick.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

Dan.S said:


> Roflmaoomgyouareso****ingfunnywtf....Hahahaha..... Eat a dick.


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

:facepalm:


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

Lmao


























Avail. Aug 5th ship date.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

I was at Waterfest yesterday with my son. The TTRS Stage 3 looks awesome. My TTRS is at Stage 2 at the moment but maybe Stage 3 will be on my agenda


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

hightechrdn said:


> HPFP is interesting considering comments in the past made about the Loba HPFP by APR.


At significantly higher power levels, it's necessary. 

Full details to come, including pricing, power, etc. 

Graphs at the show were with the stock intake and stock pancake pipe. :thumbup:


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

So the description says turn key and someone also mentioned $12000. Sounds like it should come with a clutch, HPFP and all the other required bits to go from stock to stage 3(labor not included)?


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

CarbonRS said:


> So the description says turn key and someone also mentioned $12000. Sounds like it should come with a clutch, HPFP and all the other required bits to go from stock to stage 3(labor not included)?


reading between the lines it seems you may also need to purchase a hpfp +/- upgraded clutch.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> So the description says turn key and someone also mentioned $12000. Sounds like it should come with a clutch, HPFP and all the other required bits to go from stock to stage 3(labor not included)?


And intercooler!


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

The Kit requires the HPFP. To save you cost, we excluded it from the kit so we could offer it in two forms and eliminate inventory issues in house, at our dealers and overseas:

1. New pump with APR Internals
2. Rebuild your own pump with APR Internals

I expect most to take route two because it removes the unnecessary expense of buying a brand new pump (you already own one). You just need to ship it to us, we'll rebuild it, test it, and send it back. It works just like our 2.0T FSI fuel pump program. However, some may not be able to participate in the rebuild (especially those overseas) so a new pump option is available. 

The kit fits without the APR intercooler but running it without the intercooler would be foolish. The factory intercooler will heat soak quickly and your power will suffer. 

We'll have clutch solutions at the time of purchase. During development some were fine for a while, but eventually slipped, especially on a loaded dyno. Every 6MT customer should expect and budget for a clutch upgrade. 

The kit does not require an intake. All power figures were collected with the factory unit. We showed the VWR intake at the show. 

The Pancake pipe upgrade we have was not used to collect power data. That information will be available in the near future. 

The kit will include a downpipe, but will require a midpipe. (This is the long straight pipe under the car connecting the pipe coming off the turbo to the catback muffler area). APR Downpipe and turboback customers already have this middle pipe. You can use the stock catback, but I'd recommend upgrading to our RSC turboback exhaust as this is what we used during our development. 

As with our other kits, we'll have the option to chose two different Motul Lubrication oil and coolant and filter packages at checkout. These items are required for an install since the oil and coolant must be drained and we package all of this at a discounted price. 

I know many will have questions and I'm in the process of producing all of the marketing data which will cover most everything. Please pardon me if I don't get to answer everything quickly in the next few days.


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

what kind of gains could we expect with the intake in stage 1/2/3 cars?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

YYC Dubber said:


> what kind of gains could we expect with the intake in stage 1/2/3 cars?


We may need to conduct more testing in this area and I will need to check with engineering to ensure I have the latest data. From what I recall, early testing with ideal entrances, thus no filter and the most ideal way to get air into the engine, showed no measurable gain at stage 1 or 2. Intakes likewise also echoed the same results - same or worse than stock. 

Our latest production stage 2 calibrations nearly max out what the turbo is capable of producing, which may introduce some restriction in the system. I need to verify with engineering if the intake was tested at these power levels or not. likely, the intake can serve as something that looks good, sounds good, or could provide some heat shielding shielding beyond that of the OEM for prolonged benefits not easily noticeable on the dyno. But as far as 'big' power gains as some have claimed, I'm not buying it. 

At stage 3 power levels we did test the ideal entrance again and it did produce more power the further we went to towards redline. If I recall correctly, it was enough to max out around 650+ WHP on race fuel, up about 20 WHP in some areas. However, keep in mind this was with an ideal entrance, thus no filter. When I'm back in the office I can check the numbers again. 

We'll conduct testing with the VWR and Carbonio systems to see if they do produce any worthwhile results at stage 3 power levels. The VWR intake is a system that can be sold today if one were to want it. The Carbonio however is not for sale as we have not given Carbonio the thumbs up yet, and their lead times are rather lengthy. This begs the question, if it didn't produce a lot of power, would you still be interested for the other reasons mentioned above?


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

So if I am reading this correctly then we are looking at the following

$12,000 - The base kit
+ Install
+ Clutch Upgrade/install
+ Intercooler/install
+ HPFP Upgrade/install
+ Oil Kit

Rough estimate - $21000-$22000

I am guessing that there will not be a ton of owners that decide to do this at this cost, but I could be completely wrong. 

Also no offense to APR but after the whole tune fiasco, I am guessing a lot of owners will be very hesitant to jump right into it no matter the cost. Imagine if we had the same amount of issues with the stage 3 kit as we did with the tune. With that amount of power and the number of items swapped out, it would wipe out our engines. 

If I do decide to do this (and that is a big if at this cost) I would for sure wait 6 months or more to let others be the testers.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

The Stage 3 kit's software was written by the same new engineers that fixed the stage 1/2's software's throttle closure issue, which did not threaten the engines health in any way. The issue was related to a calculation error within the ecu caused by producing loads of torque and boost down low. That's all fixed and putting smiles on peoples faces.

Rest assured, they've spent a long time on the software and have dug deeper into it more than any stage 3 software we've had in the past. You could say the guys working on it are a bit obsessive. It results in product delays, but it's resulting in absolute perfection. 

No oil kits are necessary. We've track tested our kit at extreme temperatures many times. It's not necessary.


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

croman44 said:


> Rough estimate - $21000-$22000


i was going to guess 20k or so as well prior to the pre-release but you just never know.

if i wanted a car THAT quick, i would likely just get a warranty-backed 2012 GT-R and be done with it for that price. slapping a stage3 kit on the TT would be pretty damn fun as well.

will be interesting to see who does it first and posts some vids to watch.

:thumbup:


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> i was going to guess 20k or so as well prior to the pre-release but you just never know.
> 
> if i wanted a car THAT quick, i would likely just get a warranty-backed 2012 GT-R and be done with it for that price. slapping a stage3 kit on the TT would be pretty damn fun as well.
> 
> ...


Hello 

The annual 30-130 and vmax day is on the 11th August. Will be interesting to see how the car compares to its previous runs at stage 2 and how it compares to the 750hp GTR's, twin turbo r8's and aftermarket turbo 911's


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

That's going to be exciting! :thumbup:


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## Euro Enginuity (Aug 7, 2010)

Not to thread jack but we got RisR32 a ride in this car this weekend and she was thoroughly impressed compared to her stage 2 TTRS. Solid kit with big numbers and safe. 

If anyone is interested in getting this kit installed send us a message as it looks like RisR32's will be having us install one shortly.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

We're looking forward to it!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Thanks for the preliminary details, Arin. I'm sure it all be clear once the site pages are up, complete with lots of great part pictures. 

Any introductory sale pricing on the Stage 3?  Or how about combo deals of the Stage 3 + intercooler + HPFP (+ RSC exhaust)?

Oh, and one request for your SW guys: please get the "fully loaded" switching features into the TT-RS! The "valet mode" lock-out is must-have on a Stage 3 car...


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## RisR32 (Aug 31, 2005)

Euro Enginuity said:


> Not to thread jack but we got RisR32 a ride in this car this weekend and she was thoroughly impressed compared to her stage 2 TTRS. Solid kit with big numbers and safe.
> 
> If anyone is interested in getting this kit installed send us a message as it looks like RisR32's will be having us install one shortly.


Haha thanks Euro Enginuity for getting me that ride! 

The car was pretty awesome. To preface the TTRS at the show was only running on 93 octane with the obvious capability to run race fuel and it still blew me away. It was a huge upgrade from my current STG 2. The power was immediate, turbo lag was unnoticeable, and it was still smooth enough to daily drive. If you have the funds or even if you don't like me, this is still a necessity lol. You will not be disappointed.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Obviously far too early to tell, but how do you guys (APR) think the engine reliability will be at these power levels? Would you suggest that a built motor would be required if you're going to be driving the 100RON tune for extended durations?


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Looking forward to getting all the details. What if any internals need/should be changed. What about the tranny and other related parts. I understand the new clutch is a must, but with that kind of power it seems like all the linkage would be under severe stress. 

Also, as has been discussed earlier, the value proposition to sink that kind of money in a car makes a GTR a real option to consider, assuming one likes GTR's and it would fit your lifestyle.

For me, unless someone can give me strong evidence that I will have similar reliability to stage 2 and there is a low hassle path for me to divest myself without taking a 22K+ bath, stage 3 is probably not in my future. Alternatively, I might consider buying a sedan to put the miles on, but then that would completely go against my philosophy that cars are made to be driven. I don't want a 80K+ garage hog.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> We may need to conduct more testing in this area and I will need to check with engineering to ensure I have the latest data. From what I recall, early testing with ideal entrances, thus no filter and the most ideal way to get air into the engine, showed no measurable gain at stage 1 or 2. Intakes likewise also echoed the same results - same or worse than stock.
> 
> Our latest production stage 2 calibrations nearly max out what the turbo is capable of producing, which may introduce some restriction in the system. I need to verify with engineering if the intake was tested at these power levels or not. likely, the intake can serve as something that looks good, sounds good, or could provide some heat shielding shielding beyond that of the OEM for prolonged benefits not easily noticeable on the dyno. But as far as 'big' power gains as some have claimed, I'm not buying it.
> 
> ...


Arin, has APR tried running a sealed top air intake,and a pipe from the lower secondary opening from the oem box.
I've been running a bit of a bodge DIY system on mine over the last few weeks,and it has brought intakes down slightly.
This is the only system I've tried,where I've actually seen the intakes drop by a couple of c,and the car seems to be more eager at high revs.
Now I know it brings results, I'll look for a more professional option to buy.
The manual cars have more room to play with,having no gearbox radiator blocking the path of the lower intake pipe.
If I get one of your new coolers soon,it would be really interesting to see what intakes are like then.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> INB4 Dan gets in here with OMGWTF MY SRT4 TURBO ONLY COST 65 CENTS.


the real question is...does stage 3 require a crash bar???


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

jibbed said:


> Obviously far too early to tell, but how do you guys (APR) think the engine reliability will be at these power levels? Would you suggest that a built motor would be required if you're going to be driving the 100RON tune for extended durations?


We don't have a 100 RON tune, but if we find the fuel to be much better and in high demand we may be able to tweak our existing calibrations for it. If you ran 100 RON, you'd want to chose our 98 RON calibration. You'll simply get a little more power than we advertise. 

Typically 98, 99 and 100 RON are just "better" than our local 93 AKI fuel, but not the same as our 100 AKI or 104 AKI fuel. I don't believe our pump fuel calibrations will require rods given the stress testing we've endured on the track with much higher octanes. 

104 AKI offers a MASSIVE advantage for power increases and does skirt into an area where we would recommend engine internals for prolonged use. Nearly every APR kit running race fuel comes with our recommendation to do so. We rather you be safe than sorry, even though VAG has upped the quality of their connecting rods considerably around 2008 with the introduction of new DI engines.

That said, we thankfully haven't seen any issues!


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> We don't have a 100 RON tune, but if we find the fuel to be much better and in high demand we may be able to tweak our existing calibrations for it. If you ran 100 RON, you'd want to chose our 98 RON calibration. You'll simply get a little more power than we advertise.
> 
> Typically 98, 99 and 100 RON are just "better" than our local 93 AKI fuel, but not the same as our 100 AKI or 104 AKI fuel. I don't believe our pump fuel calibrations will require rods given the stress testing we've endured on the track with much higher octanes.
> 
> ...


Arin,

I appreciate the perspective, but it seems like the APR opinion is basically just an anecdotal account. I am not saying that to be critical. It just seems to be a fact if you have only tested something like one to three cars for a few months and I guess a few thousand miles. I recognize that to some extent this is the nature of the beast, but it does not engender confidence.

HOWEVER, in William's perfect world, I would very much like to see some kind of qualified independent analysis of the internals. This could include any or all of the following. 1) verified specs from VAG in terms of what the various parts can handle 2) break down an engine after 10K miles and send off samples for a real stress analysis. 3) Detailed opinion from several independent experts in the racing field. 4) Real dyno results of the exact same car under the same conditions after 10K, 20K and 30K miles. Again, this is my perfect world scenario.

To whatever degree APR can get some of these things (and whatever else is out there that I am not thinking of), this would increase the chances of my upgrade.

Having said all that, my other big concern is sunk cost. If someone created a easy path to ensure that I was not just throwing out 22K, plus extra depreciation, then I would be much more likely to purchase this kit. 

One other silly question, has APR ever considered offering some-kind of real warranty. Not just on your parts, but a comprehensive warranty?


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

If APR will guarantee me the following points I'm willing to buy the kit:
1) Deliver the kit to APR Romania
2) Me and the APR Romania dealer will decide where to install the kit (the service)
3) Me and one APR representative will assist during the installation process (the internals will remain stock as I'm not willing to change them and you say they are not needed).
4) I pay for installing the kit once finished.
5) Once the kit is installed on the car I will conduct the testing on the roads with the APR representative in the car and only in his presence (a few consecutive pulls at above 30 grd C from low speed to high speeds + driven hard to ensure everything is ok and the engine can handle the stress) using 98 RON pump fuel --> If the engine blows I kill the APR dealer 
6) I don't drive the car in the absence of the APR representative and I agree to seal the car when not driven so neither me or APR can do anything to it.
7) After this we take the car to an independent dyno (4x4 mustang) --> The car should achieve at least 520 whp during 3 consecutive runs on 98 RON pump fuel (I think with this 520 whp figure I should cover the difference between a mustang dyno and what your dyno could show ... especially considering that mustang shows pretty close to 340 bhp on a stock car).

If all points are met I pay for the kit + pay the APR representative for the extra time spent on supervising the process. If the output of the dyno test will be less than 520 whp then ... ? you tell me. A kit advertised with 600 whp should be capable of delivering 520 whp on any dyno (I hope we all agree on this point)

If APR agrees with this please tell me so we can start the process.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> If APR will guarantee me the following points I'm willing to buy the kit:
> 1) Deliver the kit to APR Romania
> 2) Me and the APR Romania dealer will decide where to install the kit (the service)
> 3) Me and one APR representative will assist during the installation process (the internals will remain stock as I'm not willing to change them and you say they are not needed).
> ...


Lol be reasonable.

Btw since when did you care about dyno numbers? I thought it was all about how it drove on the road.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Poverty said:


> Lol be reasonable.
> 
> Btw since when did you care about dyno numbers? I thought it was all about how it drove on the road.


I am reasonable: I pay for an APR representative to be present and supervise the entire process so APR will be sure that I don't do any "tricks".
The dyno part is for measuring and ensuring that APR delivers what is promising ME (actually less than what is promising) and to guarantee THEM that I don't play "unfair" and say at the end that I don't like how the car drives.

I think I am more than reasonable and fair.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

There were many situations with big turbo engines when the engine blow and the tuner said to the customer that he over-revved or he didn't put good oil, or the kit was not installed correctly or he missed a gear, or whatever reason.

I'm not willing to play with a 10.000 Euros engine nor willing to pay 11.000 ++ USD for a kit and not be 100% sure that I receive what I expect to.

Did Revo payed for Cocker's engine?


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

cipsony said:


> If all points are met I pay for the kit + pay the APR representative for the extra time spent on supervising the process.


So you don't want to pay until everything is installed and running to your satisfaction? Doesn't sounds like you're serious to me. What if you don't pay? I'm sure it's easy for APR to collect bad accounts in Romania


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

No worries. We're not participating in that rigamarole. I have plenty of people in line dying to get the kit and I believe our time and resources would be better spent elsewhere. :thumbup:


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

G'day Arin - thanks for the response re: the motor/internals and race fuel. Must be a tough little motor to be able to handle nearly double the factory power (Even on 93!)!

Sorry - given this is a US forum - my reference to 100 was the US stuff (whoops!), but appreciate the context re the Aussie 100 in any case. 

Looks like an excellent product guys. Looking forward to seeing it at the strip!



[email protected] said:


> We don't have a 100 RON tune, but if we find the fuel to be much better and in high demand we may be able to tweak our existing calibrations for it. If you ran 100 RON, you'd want to chose our 98 RON calibration. You'll simply get a little more power than we advertise.
> 
> Typically 98, 99 and 100 RON are just "better" than our local 93 AKI fuel, but not the same as our 100 AKI or 104 AKI fuel. I don't believe our pump fuel calibrations will require rods given the stress testing we've endured on the track with much higher octanes.
> 
> ...


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

In fairness - the only way you're going to be able to give real world insights (other than testing kms), is to keep upping the power till the engine fails - and that's a VERY expensive way to do R&D. I think these engines are about 20k? Although I'm sure you'd probably be able to look at Rod length, thickness etc and make an estimate of maximum torque, but it'd just be an educated guess.



Williamttrs said:


> Arin,
> 
> I appreciate the perspective, but it seems like the APR opinion is basically just an anecdotal account. I am not saying that to be critical. It just seems to be a fact if you have only tested something like one to three cars for a few months and I guess a few thousand miles. I recognize that to some extent this is the nature of the beast, but it does not engender confidence.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

It's really not wizardry to figure out how strong these engines are, it is in all effect a slightly stronger 2.0tfsi with a extra cylinder attached. Therefore I am of the opinion 600hp on this motor stock is more than safe going by the history of big turbo 2.0tfsi which have done 60-70k with APR big turbo kits and are still running strong.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> I am reasonable: I pay for an APR representative to be present and supervise the entire process so APR will be sure that I don't do any "tricks".
> The dyno part is for measuring and ensuring that APR delivers what is promising ME (actually less than what is promising) and to guarantee THEM that I don't play "unfair" and say at the end that I don't like how the car drives.
> 
> I think I am more than reasonable and fair.


You never demanded all of this from Loba?

And you really expect someone to fit a kit to your car, with the possibility of you turning around and saying you don't want it. What are APR then meant to do with a used kit?

I guess you will just have to meet up with someone to experience the stage 3 cars or maybe you will make up your mind when the APR stage 3 cars blow away all other stage 3 TTRS at 30-130?


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

jibbed said:


> In fairness - the only way you're going to be able to give real world insights (other than testing kms), is to keep upping the power till the engine fails - and that's a VERY expensive way to do R&D. I think these engines are about 20k? Although I'm sure you'd probably be able to look at Rod length, thickness etc and make an estimate of maximum torque, but it'd just be an educated guess.


I realize my comments sound a bit wishful, but hey if I don't say what would help me make a decision, then I certainly cannot hope anyone is going to do it. If it were my company, I would listen to all the honest feedback of customers and evaluate if it was possible to give them what they want or come as close as possible. APR is definitely a company that is interested in what its customers want.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Williamttrs said:


> I realize my comments sound a bit wishful, but hey if I don't say what would help me make a decision, then I certainly cannot hope anyone is going to do it. If it were my company, I would listen to all the honest feedback of customers and evaluate if it was possible to give them what they want or come as close as possible. APR is definitely a company that is interested in what its customers want.


A couple of ideas:

Major engine parts like con rods could be tested via computer analysis for a fraction of the price of setting up an engine stand and doing destructive testing. It wouldn't show latent design issues or manufacturing defects (ex: thin/porous engine castings), but it would point out more obvious limits of the typical OEM parts which fail.

I am very interested to see the bearings in an engine run at stage 3 levels for 10k, 20k, etc miles. Problems with marginal parts like connecting rods can be identified by examining bearings for abnormal wear. If the ends of a connecting rod are starting to stretch, it will show up in the bearings. This is only an example, but E9x M3 4.0L V8's have issues like this which show up at higher power levels. Tearing down a 2.5L TFSI after running at high power levels could show a lot, without requiring a large investment.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

hightechrdn said:


> A couple of ideas:
> 
> Major engine parts like con rods could be tested via computer analysis for a fraction of the price of setting up an engine stand and doing destructive testing. It wouldn't show latent design issues or manufacturing defects (ex: thin/porous engine castings), but it would point out more obvious limits of the typical OEM parts which fail.
> 
> I am very interested to see the bearings in an engine run at stage 3 levels for 10k, 20k, etc miles. Problems with marginal parts like connecting rods can be identified by examining bearings for abnormal wear. If the ends of a connecting rod are starting to stretch, it will show up in the bearings. This is only an example, but E9x M3 4.0L V8's have issues like this which show up at higher power levels. Tearing down a 2.5L TFSI after running at high power levels could show a lot, without requiring a large investment.


This is exactly the sort of thing I am getting at. I want something that I have some quantitative data to base an expectation on what I am buying. Dollars are pretty easy for any of us to analyze. But the "black box" we call an engine is more or less a mystery to me. Sure I understand a lot of the basic principles, but I really have no idea if Audi believes the various engine parts and drive train parts can handle nearly double the amount of force as the stock car. 

If it was a simple equation like the following I would be golden. Hypothetical: A typical TTRS will be a reliable car for about 150K miles before needing a major overhaul. A typical stage 3 car with stock internals will last about 50K miles before needing a major overhaul. A typical stage 3 car with beefed up internals (yes that is a technical term) will last about 100K miles. 

This kind of real world understanding would enable me to fully evaluate the question.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Arin
Have you any Stronic cars testing stage 3 in Europe at the moment.If so what torque are they running with what gearbox upgrades ?


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> This is exactly the sort of thing I am getting at. I want something that I have some quantitative data to base an expectation on what I am buying. Dollars are pretty easy for any of us to analyze. But the "black box" we call an engine is more or less a mystery to me. Sure I understand a lot of the basic principles, but I really have no idea if Audi believes the various engine parts and drive train parts can handle nearly double the amount of force as the stock car.
> 
> If it was a simple equation like the following I would be golden. Hypothetical: A typical TTRS will be a reliable car for about 150K miles before needing a major overhaul. A typical stage 3 car with stock internals will last about 50K miles before needing a major overhaul. A typical stage 3 car with beefed up internals (yes that is a technical term) will last about 100K miles.
> 
> This kind of real world understanding would enable me to fully evaluate the question.


A stage 3 car can last just as long as stock. You aren't driving at full attack every time you get into the car. There's guys posting on APR's Facebook page how their big turbo Audi is still running strong at 150k miles, and another 110k miles.

Obviously a race car will need more attention, stock or modded.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> A couple of ideas:
> 
> Major engine parts like con rods could be tested via computer analysis for a fraction of the price of setting up an engine stand and doing destructive testing. It wouldn't show latent design issues or manufacturing defects (ex: thin/porous engine castings), but it would point out more obvious limits of the typical OEM parts which fail.
> 
> I am very interested to see the bearings in an engine run at stage 3 levels for 10k, 20k, etc miles. Problems with marginal parts like connecting rods can be identified by examining bearings for abnormal wear. If the ends of a connecting rod are starting to stretch, it will show up in the bearings. This is only an example, but E9x M3 4.0L V8's have issues like this which show up at higher power levels. Tearing down a 2.5L TFSI after running at high power levels could show a lot, without requiring a large investment.


We've got somewhere around 15k (last time I looked) on ours. Most of those miles were with the Stage 3 kit installed and were very hard earned. When it gets back from waterfest, we're probably going to change the oil. I'll send a sample in for oil analysis. If it's making metal, we'll see it there.

I doubt that it is, but it's certainly worth checking.


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> We've got somewhere around 15k (last time I looked) on ours. Most of those miles were with the Stage 3 kit installed and were very hard earned. When it gets back from waterfest, we're probably going to change the oil. I'll send a sample in for oil analysis. If it's making metal, we'll see it there.
> 
> I doubt that it is, but it's certainly worth checking.


I would always upgrade the internals with twice the power level.
Better save then sorry. 

http://www.loba-motorsport.com/shop...11/arrow-/-loba-connecting-rods-2.5-tfsi?c=50

http://www.loba-motorsport.com/shop...ro/412/loba-2.5-tfsi-forged-pistons-mahle-124


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> No worries. We're not participating in that rigamarole. I have plenty of people in line dying to get the kit and I believe our time and resources would be better spent elsewhere. :thumbup:


 I expected this answer. 

"Quod erat demonstrandum"


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

R5T said:


> I would always upgrade the internals with twice the power level.


We're already making internals. 100% made in the USA with US certified alloys. :thumbup:


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

canuckttrs said:


> So you don't want to pay until everything is installed and running to your satisfaction? Doesn't sounds like you're serious to me. What if you don't pay? I'm sure it's easy for APR to collect bad accounts in Romania


If the car stays sealed with APR I assume I can't take it without paying or coming to an agreement if what was payed was not delivered. Anyway, in Romania we are like a small community of VAG enthusiasts. I know Alex from APR Romania and Silviu (former APR representative) --> so it's not like running away with the car without paying! 

Please tell me how can you tell if what you paid for it's delivered? You just pay for the shiny parts and not expect to deliver what is advertised? What if the kit is advertised with 550-600 whp on pump fuel and on your car it delivers less than 500 whp? 
And it's not about "my satisfaction"; It's about measuring the product that you receive on a dyno.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> If the car stays sealed with APR I assume I can't take it without paying or coming to an agreement if what was payed was not delivered. Anyway, in Romania we are like a small community of VAG enthusiasts. I know Alex from APR Romania and Silviu (former APR representative) --> so it's not like running away with the car without paying!
> 
> Please tell me how can you tell if what you paid for it's delivered? You just pay for the shiny parts and not expect to deliver what is advertised? What if the kit is advertised with 550-600 whp on pump fuel and on your car it delivers less than 500 whp?
> And it's not about "my satisfaction"; It's about measuring the product that you receive on a dyno.


But a dyno is too inaccurate although on a Romanian dyno I'm sure it would make even higher numbers


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

cipsony said:


> If the car stays sealed with APR I assume I can't take it without paying or coming to an agreement if what was payed was not delivered. Anyway, in Romania we are like a small community of VAG enthusiasts. I know Alex from APR Romania and Silviu (former APR representative) --> so it's not like running away with the car without paying!
> 
> Please tell me how can you tell if what you paid for it's delivered? You just pay for the shiny parts and not expect to deliver what is advertised? What if the kit is advertised with 550-600 whp on pump fuel and on your car it delivers less than 500 whp?
> And it's not about "my satisfaction"; It's about measuring the product that you receive on a dyno.


did you ask audi to dyno the car to make sure the numbers audi claimed were accurate before you purchased the car?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

As mentioned before, we're not interested. Let's get back on topic. :thumbup:


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

When can we expect the marketing release Arin?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Poverty said:


> When can we expect the marketing release Arin?


August 5th.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

cipsony said:


> If the car stays sealed with APR I assume I can't take it without paying or coming to an agreement if what was payed was not delivered. Anyway, in Romania we are like a small community of VAG enthusiasts. I know Alex from APR Romania and Silviu (former APR representative) --> so it's not like running away with the car without paying!
> 
> Please tell me how can you tell if what you paid for it's delivered? You just pay for the shiny parts and not expect to deliver what is advertised? What if the kit is advertised with 550-600 whp on pump fuel and on your car it delivers less than 500 whp?
> And it's not about "my satisfaction"; It's about measuring the product that you receive on a dyno.



This is why you wait. Others will buy the kit, so just wait over time and you can see how it effects other cars and what kind if numbers they get. 

It's the smart thing to do any ways. I am personally waiting 6 months at least to see how it all shakes out before I even contemplate the kit.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> We're already making internals. 100% made in the USA with US certified alloys. :thumbup:


What internals are you working on? Other than increasing reliability, what are the goals of the upgraded internals? 

Someone give me an idea of what kind of price range upgraded internals might cost. I don't quite understand how a stage 3 car can run 150K without upgraded internals. If it can do this then what is the point of upgrading internals. These seem to be conflicting ideas.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

croman44 said:


> This is why you wait. Others will buy the kit, so just wait over time and you can see how it effects other cars and what kind if numbers they get.
> 
> It's the smart thing to do any ways. I am personally waiting 6 months at least to see how it all shakes out before I even contemplate the kit.


No doubt this is wise. I think I am up for some pre-stage 3 stuff over the next six months like springs, IC and clutch, but stage 3 is an iffy proposition for me even in an ideal scenario.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

croman44 said:


> This is why you wait. Others will buy the kit, so just wait over time and you can see how it effects other cars and what kind if numbers they get.
> 
> It's the smart thing to do any ways. I am personally waiting 6 months at least to see how it all shakes out before I even contemplate the kit.


Actually it was more than a "test question" to APR to see if they agree on a real test on a real dyno - I don't think I will ever go the BT route no matter what the results will be. It's a very expensive car and I can't afford experiments + I don't like the lag of the big turbo engines (I drove a few) + I will never believe the figures on a stock engine!


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Williamttrs said:


> What internals are you working on? Other than increasing reliability, what are the goals of the upgraded internals?
> 
> Someone give me an idea of what kind of price range upgraded internals might cost. I don't quite understand how a stage 3 car can run 150K without upgraded internals. If it can do this then what is the point of upgrading internals. These seem to be conflicting ideas.


First item will be drop in light weight connecting rods. We're releasing essentially the same rods for the 2.0T EA113 and EA888 platform (FSI and TSI) in multiple wrist pin sizes per engine requirements. The same will be use for the 2.5 with obvious adjustments to fit the platform. Our retail price point is $999 for the 4 rods. They are 100% forged, treated, machined, etc in the USA with US certified alloys, which is very uncommon in the ROD market and I'm not sure is shared by anyone else in the VAG direct injection scene at the moment. 

The second item will be slightly oversized pistons, at the stock compression, with the exact matching OEM piston dish/profile. They will be produced by MAHLE motorsport and will be proprietary to APR and will work with our connecting rods (as will the stock piston). The same is being done for the 2.0T as well and will sell for $999 for a set of 4. 

Our pistons are not required when installing the upgraded rods. The OEM pistons will work, but we'll have an option available for those looking to upgrade.

We will be using MAHLE motorsport as well for rod bearings and wrist pins. Our 'install kits' will use all OEM parts and we'll recommend and or supply Motul lubricants.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

any plans on a 2.7-2.8 stroker?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

smack_ttrs said:


> any plans on a 2.7-2.8 stroker?


Now we're talking.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> First item will be drop in light weight connecting rods. We're releasing essentially the same rods for the 2.0T EA113 and EA888 platform (FSI and TSI) in multiple wrist pin sizes per engine requirements. The same will be use for the 2.5 with obvious adjustments to fit the platform. Our retail price point is $999 for the 4 rods. They are 100% forged, treated, machined, etc in the USA with US certified alloys, which is very uncommon in the ROD market and I'm not sure is shared by anyone else in the VAG direct injection scene at the moment.
> 
> The second item will be slightly oversized pistons, at the stock compression, with the exact matching OEM piston dish/profile. They will be produced by MAHLE motorsport and will be proprietary to APR and will work with our connecting rods (as will the stock piston). The same is being done for the 2.0T as well and will sell for $999 for a set of 4.
> 
> ...


That sounds cool, kind of like a faster processor in an already fast computer... but other than saying "hey I have a built motor" what is the point it the Stage 3 kit can run well for 100K to 150K miles. I can understand if a motor is already getting tired, but what is the point for virtually every TTRS owner out there because almost all of us have under 30K miles (my assumption). I ask this in all sincerity and with a bit of healthy skepticism.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Williamttrs said:


> That sounds cool, kind of like a faster processor in an already fast computer... but other than saying "hey I have a built motor" what is the point it the Stage 3 kit can run well for 100K to 150K miles. I can understand if a motor is already getting tired, but what is the point for virtually every TTRS owner out there because almost all of us have under 30K miles (my assumption). I ask this in all sincerity and with a bit of healthy skepticism.


I don't understand the question. Maybe a typo?


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

No typo on his part. The question is... Why?

You guys say that the TTRS will be fine with the Stage 3 kit on the stock internals, so why are you making your own?

What's the benefit, especially $2k worth?


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

croman44 said:


> No typo on his part. The question is... Why?
> 
> You guys say that the TTRS will be fine with the Stage 3 kit on the stock internals, so why are you making your own?
> 
> What's the benefit, especially $2k worth?


yep! That is my question.


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## bull30 (Jun 15, 2008)

I looked over the TTRS Stage 3 at the APR Booth at Waterfest... It looked interesting but I will not be going that route for awhile... I have Stage II now and I'm quite happy... I will say the CAI looked interesting...

See you at H2O...


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

croman44 said:


> No typo on his part. The question is... Why?
> 
> You guys say that the TTRS will be fine with the Stage 3 kit on the stock internals, so why are you making your own?
> 
> What's the benefit, especially $2k worth?


2 words: race gas


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> 2 words: race gas


Bingo. We've recommended upgraded rods when running race gas with nearly every Stage 3 turbocharger system we've created. 

Beyond that, sometimes the question becomes why not? I upgraded the connecting rods on my older GTI 2.0TFSI and I only have a k04 factory turbo upgrade. I have no real fears of the engine falling apart, we offer kits that make FAR more power anyways, but I wanted to make it bullet proof just because I could. That said, I didn't do the pistons, but I'm not on a TT RS budget either. 

:thumbup:


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Bingo. We've recommended upgraded rods when running race gas with nearly every Stage 3 turbocharger system we've created.
> 
> Beyond that, sometimes the question becomes why not? I upgraded the connecting rods on my older GTI 2.0TFSI and I only have a k04 factory turbo upgrade. I have no real fears of the engine falling apart, we offer kits that make FAR more power anyways, but I wanted to make it bullet proof just because I could. That said, I didn't do the pistons, but I'm not on a TT RS budget either.
> 
> :thumbup:


Glad to see some additional options for 2.5L TFSI engine hard parts. Looks like overall aftermarket support is shaping up for this platform. 

How about some additional clutch details? I have a kit on hold with another vendor, but am not 100% convinced it is the way to go for me. I need to let them know whether or not I want the kit asap. 

Thanks 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

hightechrdn said:


> Glad to see some additional options for 2.5L TFSI engine hard parts. Looks like overall aftermarket support is shaping up for this platform.
> 
> How about some additional clutch details? I have a kit on hold with another vendor, but am not 100% convinced it is the way to go for me. I need to let them know whether or not I want the kit asap.
> 
> ...


We have a setup coming you may want to hold out for.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> We have a setup coming you may want to hold out for.


One of the other APR people here on this forum already mentioned that to me... thus my question about details of the clutch APR offering.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Can we get a general time frame for the clutch? Are we talking a few months or a year?

This will be my next upgrade

Thanks


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

croman44 said:


> Can we get a general time frame for the clutch? Are we talking a few months or a year?
> 
> This will be my next upgrade
> 
> Thanks


I have 2 clutches on my desk. Both will be going in this coming week. We're very close but no ETA at the moment. If you can hold out a bit more, I would.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

RTErnie said:


> I have 2 clutches on my desk. Both will be going in this coming week. We're very close but no ETA at the moment. If you can hold out a bit more, I would.


Pics! Pics!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Bump for more teaser details!


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

RTErnie said:


> I have 2 clutches on my desk. Both will be going in this coming week. We're very close but no ETA at the moment. If you can hold out a bit more, I would.


Any updates?


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> Any updates?


We have needed the car for final validation of the Stage 3 kit, so we haven't been able to take it apart and test the other clutches.

After that is released (very soon now...), we'll be able to take the car apart again and test the other clutches and release one of them.

Obviously, we need to have the clutch out quickly since Stage 3 people will need it.


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> August 5th.


 August 6th, perhaps ? opcorn:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Adding features.


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## canadacraig (Nov 23, 2004)

when is the kit going to be on the APR website?


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## Cersey (Jan 1, 2013)

canadacraig said:


> when is the kit going to be on the APR website?


+1 :thumbup:


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## NamJa (Jul 31, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Adding features.


Gee, that thing really launched.......


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