# 16v fuel issues... god must not like me!



## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

so far ive replaced all the fuel componants in my 16v.
fuel pumps. fuel filter. fuel dizzy. fuel pressure reg. fuel lines. all of it has been replaced!!
and im not getting my car to stay running..
i get a cold start but then it dies.
not getting gas to the top 4 injector banjos and idk why??
can someone help me im going bald!

car in question!

87 gli
with 91 2.0 16v


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubber_kyle* »_...i get a cold start but then it dies.

I would have to say that at least fuel is reaching the cold start injector or it would not fire and die. You would have to check this to be sure, but it would seem so and that would indicate everything is OK up to the fuel distributor. The pumps require a signal from the ignition to the pump relay for it to stay closed, maybe this is lost. You can check this easy by jumping the two large sockets where the pump relay plugs in with a heavy gauge wire. If the car starts and runs then the relay or that signal is bad.


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

What is the DPR current when the car starts?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (wclark)*

i just check the dpr this morning and its at zero no matter what...
and yes im getting fuel to the cold start. and ive tryd the relays and all that.. i could give it another shot and see but im pretty sure thats not it.
as far as the dpr what should it be at.. i know i have a bad o2 sensor but that shouldnt keep the car from running.. 
and the problem is that i get NO fuel to the 4 main injectors im getting it at cold start but nothing else..


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

The CSV will work almost like normal even if the pump relay is not recieving that coil signal. The CSV gets system pressure direct from the pump and when you turn the key, the pumps run for 2 - 3 seconds even if the signal from the coil is lost. That's why the pumps come on and then shut off when you turn the key on and don't start the engine. It's just a safety feature, but can cause an issue like you have if the relay or signal is bad. Engine recieves the shot of fuel from the CSV when you try to start it, the engine fires with that fuel but because the pumps cut back off the engine dies. There is no pressure in the lines when you check because the cold start valve bleed it off.


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (WaterWheels)*

this makes sense.. but what ur saying is that the relay is bad therefor its shutting off the fuel pumps when they need to stay running so that car can get constant fuel..
ya it gets cold start and when i losen the top for injector nuts no pressure and no spurting fuel.. 
so if i change out the relay it should theoretically fix the fuel pump problem as far as them turning off?
what relays is it?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

Not saying the relay itself is bad, although that could be true. I am also or more to the point suggesting that the signal it must recieve from the ignition coil to "stay closed" might have been lost due to a broken wire or loose connection or something. You can test all this with a simple jumper wire. Use a small section of wire, not to thin or it will burn so maybe 12 or 10 gage, with a flat connector on each end. The fuel pump relay for that car should be #2, second from the left on the top row (not counting and that might be attached above the relay panel itself). Remove the relay and bridge the two large sockets, where the two large pins were pushed into, and turn the ignition to "ON", do not start yet. The fuel pumps should be running, you can tell by ear if you listen. Now crank the engine to try and start it, if it stays running you know what you have to search for, if it still dies you can move elsewhere as that was not the problem.


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubber_kyle* »_
as far as the dpr what should it be at.. i know i have a bad o2 sensor but that shouldnt keep the car from running.. 
and the problem is that i get NO fuel to the 4 main injectors im getting it at cold start but nothing else..


The DPR current should be 80ma or more when first started whether you have an O2 sensor or not.


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (WaterWheels)*

alright ill be trying that today..
suck have to remove my knee bar cuz i cant get to the relays on the panel itself so
a little work and we shall see


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

ok so I jumped the relay and it did nothing.. But on one of the prongs on the relay it was silver and looked like it had been burnt a little and the other one was copper looking.. 
Just gunna get a new one.. Thn Found a corroded fuse on the fuse block it was on the very top of it on the right hand side.. Anyone know what that one is? I replaced that too and it did nothing


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubber_kyle* »_... I jumped the relay and it did nothing.. But on one of the prongs on the relay it was silver and looked like it had been burnt a little ... 
Thn Found a corroded fuse on the fuse block it was on the very top of it on the right hand side.. 

By nothing do you mean the engine would not keep running or you could not hear the fuel pumps? I ask because of what you said after that, about the burnt contact and fuse. It is possible you have some water dripping down on the fuse/relay panel and has shorted something inside. This was a common MK1 problem and has happened to MK2 bodies also if the seal/metal under the windshiels gats bad. So if the pumps were not running then jump them with a long wire from the battery or other power source to see if maybe no power is leaving the relay/fuse panel. If the pumps were running then nevermind.


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (WaterWheels)*

ya i didnt hear the fuel pumps at all then when i put back in the relay they turned on.. that one fuse i pulled had corrosion on it so that could be possible that the fuse block did get some water but not sure how much to blow the whole block..
going to go get another relay and try that this morning..
and ill try running a wire from the battery to the relay itself.. but im pretty sure the fuse block is not blown but who knows at this point just gotta test it ALL!


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

alright tryd the wire from the battery to the fuel pump and nothing.... as soon as it makes contact i can hear it prime up and when i got to start it 
the same problem get cold start then die..
starts up brap brap then dies..
idk my fuse block is clean had to change another relay but other then that the block is good..
idk what else it could be


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Got to ask a question here which goes in a different direction. Does the engine die as soon as you release the key from the "start" position (where the engine cranks) or does it start and run for a second or two in the "run" or "on" position before dying? Hope that makes sense to you.


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

ya the car will start up then die..
its gets cold start so it goes crank crank start run die..
its getting cold start fuel but the rest of the injectors arent getting and fuel.
it runs for like 2 sec no more no less.. just gets started by the cold start then is looking for the rest of the fuel from the other injectors but nothing










_Modified by veedubber_kyle at 11:25 AM 3-29-2009_


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

The zero ma DPR current at start you reported is a big clue to me. Is ther some reason you are choosing to ignore it?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (wclark)*

really not ignoring it just don't know how to fix it.. Any suggestions


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

ok so im not very electrical savey but i have a meter... and tested it and got a -6.35 on the dpr. ?? 
good or bad.?








all i know is that this is annoying and i need to figure out why im not getting any fuel to the top of the 4 fuel injector banjos...
got fuel everywhere else but not there


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

First thing. Are you measuring current or voltage?
Just in case you need this info: 
The DPR measurement is set up to put the meter (in current measuring mode) in series with either wire at the connector of the DPR. That means a wire has to be cut (or use a harness with 2 connectors and a breakout), the meter inserted with one lead to each new cut end and current measured. Normally the meter range should be set to 200ma for this. 
If the above measurement reads 0ma, first check the meters current protection fuse (usually inside the meter) as it may have been blown previously by connecting the meter to a current source of something over an amp while in the current measuring mode. At this point it doesnt matter if the meter is saying + or -. That is probably just the way the meter leads are connected.
By the way, if you cut the wire to make the measurement a good way to restore it afterwards is with a male and female spade crimped one on each wire end. That way you can go back in and measure it again and again simply by pulling the two apart. 
So if you do have 0ma after verifying the meter fuse, you need to check the wiring, connectors and DPR resistances - looking for an open. The DPR will have a resistance around 15-20 ohms. Measuring the resistance of the wires means connecting the meter set on ohms to each end of each wire in turn. From the DPR plug to the ECU plug - both disconnected of course. You want something close to 0 ohms in each case. You can check the whole loop minus the ECU by measuring the resistance across the 2 DPR pins at the ECU end. In that case you want to see 15-20 ohms. If this is good then it means there is no open in the DPR, connector at the DPR end or wiring, all at once. 


_Modified by wclark at 7:13 PM 3-29-2009_


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (wclark)*

really no idea if i was mearsuring current of voltage..
all i know is that i put the dial on 200 a on my multimeter and it came up as -6.35..
i know that my 02 sensor is bad but could that really be the reason im not getting fuel to the injectors?
i understand that if the dpr is not getting power then theoretically it shouldnt be pushing fuel to the top to the injectors.
either way im a for sure that its not getting power.... any way to change this?








electrical gets me super confused.


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

No matter how bad the O2 sensor is it wont keep the car from running after start. Heck it doesnt even come into the equation for a minute or so as it warms up. During that time the ECU drives the DPR current based on a formula that includes engine temp and RPM. So we have to figure out if someting is keeping that from happening. 
If the DPR current at this point is really 0ma, your cold engine shouldnt run. When cold it will need lots of extra fuel and a DPR current above 80ma or so. Once it warms up the current will drop down to around 10ma.
How did you hook up the meter exactly? I see you say you had it in 200 a, but if I had to guess I would say you meant 200 ma. Were the meter leads connected into the DPR circuit as I described or some other way? 

On a somewhat related note... Did you try observing an injector while lifting the mass airflow measurement plate? This requires the fuel pump relay be jumpered so it will continue to run with the ignition ON and engine not running. And, did anyone change the CO adjustment screw (3mm hex screw in the hole between the fuel distributor and air flow meter) since it last ran correctly? I know you indicated the fuel distributor has been replaced but you didnt indicate if it was just the distributor itself or the whole distributor/mass airflow sensor assembly. Why did you replace all the stuff to begin with? (was it this same problem?)


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (wclark)*

ya i tryd lifting the plate and looking to see if any fuel drip out and nothing.. ya i took it to a shop and they played with the co adjustment thing and pushed it through the plate so i put i new one on.
idk if it would check out but i tryd jumping the dpr. wire from the battery to the dpr and it didnt work? just thought id try it. 
i connected it by using the exsisting plug and touching the plugs connections with the car key turn on. one way it would be zero and the other way it was -6.35
i had a buddy come over with a bently and we test the car using the ecu harness and everything checked out good accordingly to the bentley. all the numbers where correct corresponding to the books recommendations.
so really i dont know why it shouldnt start..
the only thing i could find other then this was that if the needle on the fuel dizzy isnt the right length the plate wont hit up but i was pushing the needle up myself starting the car from the starter.. and still nothing.. at this point.. 
what would be the best possible solution to bypassing the whole airbox?


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

dumb question? - do you have the feed and return lines reversed?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (woodrowstar)*

if the fuel lines where reversed i should get any fuel at all.. but i am


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

anyone have any more suggestions?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

no one?


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

dumb question #2:
is there a screen in your rubber boot on top of the airbox? if so, is it upside down?
dumb question# 3:
have you tried lifting the airflow plate manually? ... fuel should definitly come out then.


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (woodrowstar)*

question 2#
yes
Question 3#
yeah i try pulling it up and nothing. it gets so much pressure that the needle gets hard to pull up.problem is that is not getting to the top 4 banjos thats why is causing so much pressure.
only thing ima do know is pull the wiring harness and try a new one


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

OK, dumb questions 4 and 5.
4) Are the screws that hold on the DPR stainless or were they swapped to steel? Have seen people use normal steel screws which become magnetized and cause problems.
5) Is the DPR the correct one, 1.8L and not a 2.0L? The 2.0L 16v is a Motronic system and the rest position for the DPR valve is closed if I recall where as the 1.8L is slightly open. Don't know if rest position is the right term.


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

Will you post a video of the things you are looking at and whats happening?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (woodrowstar)*

alright video coming soon!


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

alright here is a link to the video.
sorry for the quality i was live streaming off my phone.
http://qik.com/video/1444803
hopefully you guys see something im not.
the vaccumm hose connected to the throtel body doesnt work so dont worry to much about that. im hoping 
but ya there is is hope it works. thanks
kyle


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*

_Modified by veedubber_kyle at 12:13 PM 4-12-2009_


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

thinking....


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (woodrowstar)*

lol ok!
would it help to say that one day back before this started happening like a week or 2 
i grounded out my battery on the car. my alternator got fryd.
could i be that my car just needs to be rewired? i mean i tested the whole car and changed it out between 5 diff ecu i had and nothing changed worked with the Bentley and it said i had all good current to everything.
like 2 months ago thats when i tested it
very very puzzled at this point.


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

anyone?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

anyone?
im gettin depressed now lol


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

nothing!!
oh man!


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

ok so this is what im gunna do! since i havnt gotten far at all..
im gunna delete my air box and fuel dizzy 
put on a 1.8t fuel rail with g60 injectors and use a aftermarket external bike fuel pump and regulator to run the car..
any suggestions? or comments


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## ThxBob (May 7, 2009)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (veedubber_kyle)*

I'm having the exact same problem in my 1987 GLi. Here's a list of what I've tried and the results so we can maybe get this narrowed down together.
I've tried multiple fuel distributors.
Changed the fuel filter.
Cycled 6 gallons of clean fuel through the pumps (to make sure they 
were not all gummed up. The car sat for 13 years in a garage).
Jumped the pumps to run and lifted the metering plate. 
Even with the injectors off the lines, no fuel gets to the upper chamber of the distributor.
I have searched and searched and searched on this topic, and while i've found people that have had the same problem, nobody has known what causes it. Please help!!!


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## johnny truelove (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (ThxBob)*

I have a car with the exact same problem... fuel presure is within spec, but no fuel to the injecters. Has anyone figured out this problem yet?


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## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: 16v fuel issues... god must not like me! (johnny truelove)*

Nope.. But one problem I found on my old dizzy the on rings on the inside clogged the tiny holes but recommend not opening it up unless you should just get a new one


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