# 1.3 9.500rpm buildup



## Fankii-T (Aug 4, 2007)

I'm thinking about building a smaller engine for my mk1, I've loved to go outside the 1.8, 2.0route and build a 1.3 high rev engine like the cars in bergcup runs.. Sorry for the title, had to write something to get people to look








So my first question is about the crank, anyone know if there is a differences in size on the 1.1engine crank and the 1.3, don't have engine codes, but say the most common 1.3 and 1.1 out of the mk2s.
To show what I'm asking for








And when building a, say 9.500rpm engine it helps to be small in surface width, reason for the 1.3, and to keep the parts being small in size, that's why I ask about the size of the 1.1 crank, the smaller the easier to move around?? 
A big circle on the rotation of crank and them movement off piston makes torque, Nm. And a smaller circle makes less torque and then more rpm, or easier rpm??
I'm not a engine builder, it's my first time being on the toughts about building one, so it would be awesome to get some replies http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
There is more questions coming up, but I like to keep this thread off to many questions at once to really get finished with one topics before entering the others http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Car in question








Regards








Frank RT


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

you are on the right track but there is no need to go with such a small displacement. I suggest an aba block and aba or 1.8l head if you want to stay counterflow. They are cheap and plentiful not to mention robust.
you are going to run into some issues though
you need a truly balanced rotating assembly
you may want to get a different crank longer or shorter rods and custom pistons it all depends. 
you want to get the stroke to rod ratio to 1.75:1 or as close to that as possible. You should read up on rod to stroke ratios and how they effect the engine performance.
the 8v valvetrain is not modern and it is not designed to handle extreme rpm's under any situation. it can hold up for a while with solid lifter shim under bucket style lifers. lightweight valves springs, retainers, etc. 
Depending on the cam you will throw a shim if staying with shim over bucket solid lifters at that rpm. 

all in all why do you want to rev to 9500rpm? it would be cheaper easier and better in every way to just put a honda motor in there.


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## Fankii-T (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_you are on the right track but there is no need to go with such a small displacement. I suggest an aba block and aba or 1.8l head if you want to stay counterflow. They are cheap and plentiful not to mention robust.


I've read that aba is an great engine, but I really like the idea of a small revy engine in a small car like mine, but how is it to make a 1.8 or 2.0 to rev to above 8000??

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_you are going to run into some issues though
you need a truly balanced rotating assembly
you may want to get a different crank longer or shorter rods and custom pistons it all depends.

The balancing thing is the highest priority, I've been into beetles for a long time, and the engine guys there always talks about how importan it is to get that right, pluss i got questions about lightning and knifing of cranks, but I ask them later on so that I got most off the answers dailed in on this topic before I ask for more..

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_you want to get the stroke to rod ratio to 1.75:1 or as close to that as possible. You should read up on rod to stroke ratios and how they effect the engine performance.

1.75 is the ideal setup for rev on a 1.3 or is that common in the other sizes too as 1.8, 2.0...

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_the 8v valvetrain is not modern and it is not designed to handle extreme rpm's under any situation. it can hold up for a while with solid lifter shim under bucket style lifers. lightweight valves springs, retainers, etc.

You know what head the bergcup guys are running?? or pages for insperation from cup cars and engine specs??

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_
all in all why do you want to rev to 9500rpm? it would be cheaper easier and better in every way to just put a honda motor in there. 


I don't really know, but I just got a thing in my brain that driving a perfectly tuned, balanced and lightned smal car like my mk1 must be awesome! And know that when you are on the 7500mark that you stil have atleast 1500rpm left before you change gears http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

the block is practically the same size in all the 4 cylinder engines vw made. I am not sure what the aba rod ratio is off hand, but the ideal for any 4 cylinder engine is 1:75:1. 
I am not a berg cup expert but i have seen people run 8v, 16v, and 20v heads. They all use the same lifter design. They are all heavily modified. 
in terms of weight reduction in the rotational mass you can probably get a 2l block down to the same as a 1.3 or 1.1 motor. There is a ton of meat that can be cut off the crank and you can run an 020 flywheel down to about 6 pounds.


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## Dub_in_Rio (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

On the whole, if you were looking to do a small displacement/ high rev motor, I would personally go with a 1.6/1.7 hybrid.
My reasoning is that although it is possible to build a high rev 1.8/2.0, the amount of work going into those motors greatly exceeds the work going into the 1.6/1.7's.
A 1.6/1.7 hybrid would use mostly unchanged OEM parts, and be far less costly to build.
Lastly a 1.6/1.7 hybrid would retain the smaller displacement higher rev, feeling that you would find in a berg cup car.... which is what you were looking for.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: 1.3 9.500rpm buildup (Fankii-T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fankii-T* »_ So my first question is about the crank, anyone know if there is a differences in size on the 1.1engine crank and the 1.3

Not all but most of the 1.1 and 1.3 engines share the same crankshaft. 72mm stroke (hub). The piston size is what made them larger and some used flat cylinder heads also so you have to watch what parts you swap. I would go with a 1.3 like the NZ and build on that. The hydraulic followers will have to be converted but that is done often and the parts are easy to get, or use a factory mechanical head but they are not as good from what I have heard.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_the block is practically the same size in all the 4 cylinder engines vw made. I am not sure what the aba rod ratio is off hand, but the ideal for any 4 cylinder engine is 1:75:1. 
I am not a berg cup expert but i have seen people run 8v, 16v, and 20v heads. They all use the same lifter design. They are all heavily modified. 
in terms of weight reduction in the rotational mass you can probably get a 2l block down to the same as a 1.3 or 1.1 motor. There is a ton of meat that can be cut off the crank and you can run an 020 flywheel down to about 6 pounds. 


Actually, the 1.3/1.1 block is quite a bit smaller than the 1.5/1.6/1.7/1.8. It's almost a square bore straight out of the box. 75mm bore and 72mm stroke for the 1.3.








I've got one in a container on it's way to me right now







.


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## Fankii-T (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_I am not a berg cup expert but i have seen people run 8v, 16v, and 20v heads. They all use the same lifter design. They are all heavily modified.

Anyone with pictures of motorsport heads, mainly vw I searced alot for berg cup build threads but I can't find anything, so I think they wont show their secret tricks to build fast cars..








And do anyone have sites to places you can buy valvetrain parts?? Most sites I find, is pages where the say "we can rebuild your head to bla bla bla". Pages were you can buy titaniums springs and HDstuff and so on for vw heads http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif or a universal page with lots of different stuff for other cars that I try mix and match things from..

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_in terms of weight reduction in the rotational mass you can probably get a 2l block down to the same as a 1.3 or 1.1 motor. There is a ton of meat that can be cut off the crank and you can run an 020 flywheel down to about 6 pounds. 


Does the 020trans fit a 1.3 anyone??

_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_Not all but most of the 1.1 and 1.3 engines share the same crankshaft. 72mm stroke (hub). The piston size is what made them larger and some used flat cylinder heads also so you have to watch what parts you swap. I would go with a 1.3 like the NZ and build on that. The hydraulic followers will have to be converted but that is done often and the parts are easy to get, or use a factory mechanical head but they are not as good from what I have heard.

I was thinking it was something like this, but you say not all in the start here, so is there a 1.1 that have a smaller crank for a more freely spin or is it just a wast going more down in size from a 1.3??
You would recomend the NZ as a block to build on, I note that down http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thanks









_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_The hydraulic followers will have to be converted but that is done often and the parts are easy to get, or use a factory mechanical head but they are not as good from what I have heard.

How do you convert a hydro head and where do you get the parts??
And so you got a partnumber or name like aba, aeg for a factory mecanical head to for a NZ since that is recomended so fare in thread??

_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
Actually, the 1.3/1.1 block is quite a bit smaller than the 1.5/1.6/1.7/1.8. It's almost a square bore straight out of the box. 75mm bore and 72mm stroke for the 1.3.


So aiming for a square as possible is the key to rev high?? So stroking it from 72 to 75 would that be better or doesn't it make any notice?? And if you hade gone pass that, like 75bore and 80stroke if there is space for that how would the car perform then??

_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
I've got one in a container on it's way to me right now







.

Lucky you
What partnumber or name does that engine have??

_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_









What about a 1093cc with a 69.5bore and 72stroke bored up to 72 to match the storke, that would be perfectly square







Would this be the idial setup?? And were do you find lists like this for the rest of the vw range?? From 74 til today with other vag cars aswell if possible would be awesome..
And one more question, does the diesel pars take more abuse?? I see that the one off the last few on the list has a 22:1 compression ration, that must in some way be more rough on the parts like crank??
Some parts like crank, that I have to use out of the vw range to be budget, is there then a good thing to look up a diesel one?? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















Thanks for everything guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Hope you still want to answer me still if I have so many questins as i have http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif












_Modified by Fankii-T at 9:45 AM 11-1-2009_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Fankii-T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fankii-T* »_
Does the 020trans fit a 1.3 anyone??

Unfortunately no, it uses a different pattern. You'll need to source a tranny too.


_Quote »_Lucky you
What partnumber or name does that engine have??

I don't know, but I've been told it's from a Mk1 Golf, so that makes it one of the older ones. Probably the HH. From the pics I've seen of it, it's a solid lifter head.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (Fankii-T)*

You ask too many questions for me to stay focused and give a decent answer. So I'll just deal with the ones I was quoted as the source of the information for the question.

_Quote, originally posted by *Fankii-T* »_I was thinking it was something like this, but you say not all in the start here, so is there a 1.1 that have a smaller crank for a more freely spin or is it just a wast going more down in size from a 1.3??

Yes, waste would be a good term to use. The chart shown here shows the 1.1L engines that use the shorter stroke cranks, there may be others too, but they are not as easy to find as the 1.3L engines and the bore would have to be rather large to get any power worth using. Does no good to have an engine that spins to 10,000RPM but only makes 75hp and can't get your car to move unless you launch at 4000RPM. If the car is just to experiment with and not to be driven then it doesn't matter, but I believe you plan to drive the car.

_Quote, originally posted by *Fankii-T* »_How do you convert a hydro head and where do you get the parts?? And so you got a partnumber or name like aba, aeg for a factory mecanical head to for a NZ since that is recomended so fare in thread??

Give me a day or two and I can post some linky to companies. Mind you they will be either German or British. Also I will have to cross-reference engines and heads as some used different pistons/heads so they will have to match.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

crespo sells lifters that drop in to hydro heads and let you use the standard jh shim over shims


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## Fankii-T (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
Unfortunately no, it uses a different pattern. You'll need to source a tranny too.

Yes ok, thanks for the answer 

_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
I don't know, but I've been told it's from a Mk1 Golf, so that makes it one of the older ones. Probably the HH. From the pics I've seen of it, it's a solid lifter head.

If you want you could post up a pic http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I would love to take a look at it
















_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_You ask too many questions for me to stay focused and give a decent answer. So I'll just deal with the ones I was quoted as the source of the information for the question

Yes I know there was a bit too many questions, I'm sorry for that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I will post less questions from now on..

_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_Yes, waste would be a good term to use. The chart shown here shows the 1.1L engines that use the shorter stroke cranks, there may be others too, but they are not as easy to find as the 1.3L engines and the bore would have to be rather large to get any power worth using. Does no good to have an engine that spins to 10,000RPM but only makes 75hp and can't get your car to move unless you launch at 4000RPM. If the car is just to experiment with and not to be driven then it doesn't matter, but I believe you plan to drive the car.

Ok, I have a plan to build a engine for the car to be driven, but I'm still in planning stage right now, that's why I ask so much http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif But then from now on I've set my engineplan to be a 1.3 not less http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
A qoute of one of my posts above that I really would like to have an answer too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *Fankii-T* »_Does the diesel parts take more abuse?? I see that the one off the last few on the list has a 22:1 compression ration, that must in some way be more rough on the parts like crank??
Some parts like crank, that I have to use out of the vw range to be budget, is there then a good thing to look up a diesel one?? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
















Thanks again all


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I'd put up a pic, but I don't have it yet. The only one I've got is of a dusty, dirty, 1.3 ready for shipping. You can tell the solid from hydro heads by the valve covers. The solid heads bolt around the edges like a regular 'big' block cover, and the hydro ones have three bolts through the center.


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## Fankii-T (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

OK http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif And thanks for sharing the valve cover thing, now I know how to spot the difference








Anyone who have something to share to build a high rpm around a 1.3 place reply on the thread


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

Over here we had a 1457cc 'short stroke' 1.5, which is basically a 1.6 with a shorter crank. It is a cast crank, so many people will not consider it, but we have run one in a 9000rpm application without failures. The crank (and everything else) was lightened significantly and balanced. Initially ran with small valves, due to rules, so it sort of ran like a restrictor plate motor, later rules allow GTI valves and Golf throttle body, so it breathes much better.








Now running the longer stroke 1.6 due to some rule changes that make the weight we need to hit with the 1.5 very very difficult to reach.


_Modified by chois at 6:50 AM 11-4-2009_


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