# 1600 Build for retro racer... HELP!



## Sn00pyb0ttz (Jun 14, 2010)

Hi I just started the work on my 1982 GTI 1.6 and trying to figure what direction should I go in building the motor wise. Hungary makes it very hard to change motors  so a 1.8 8v or 16v is out the question but I do love the revvy nature of the 1.6. The question is this, I bought a 1.6 carb motor from an early Golf (78 i think) from the scrap yard for literally peanuts and I am curious how should I persue this build and what direction to go in. I got some advice from the guy at TRS on the bottom end but the cylinder head is where I am stuck now as I read so many opinions but would like to know what is a good setup for this motor. Should I stay with the Heron head and build that up or use the 1.6 car head?

My goal is to have 160-170 at the crank. I do have a pair of Weber DCOE 40 and a pair of DCOE 45 carbs ( the DCOE 40s are off my Alfa Spider when I used to live in America). I'm trying to make a decent street motor but perform well in Tarmac hillclimb events so some top end will be needed but I can figure that out with cam work and jetting and carb setup. Its the motor setup where I am stumped cause its not a well... 1.8 like what I am used to...

Any ideas, sugestion, your personal experience please share as I would value it much


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## Sn00pyb0ttz (Jun 14, 2010)

No one?


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## Rabbitissimo (Dec 21, 2009)

Sn00pyb0ttz said:


> Should I stay with the Heron head and build that up or use the 1.6 car head?


There is a thread here about which head is the greatest (of all time), it had a lot of opinions!
A lot of the people said the Heron heads were the best.
I don't know much about carbs, but thought you should know that head's a gem!
Apparently they have an aggressive cam, or something like that. And, good flow.
Just something I read...

Whats the best 8v head from the factory?
Quote, originally posted by gearhead455 »
Easy,

The 1.6L GTI "Huron" head

 41mm intake
34mm exhaust

That's definately in the running but the problem with those is you can't run a really radical cam with them, the valve lift at TDC needs to be less than .070" or it'll hit the piston.

Build it up!
Good luck!


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

ok, it is H*e*ron not Huron. I am not sure where that came from. They have 38/31 valves from the factory, the ports do have a better angle than the bathtub heads, they cam with the famous "G" grind cam.

I would keep the Heron head and put big valves in it if you can. It would be preferred over the other head even if they both had the same size valves. There used to be 1800 and 1847 cc conversions for the Heron headed engines but those have not been around for years. I have a 1700 bottom end for a Heron head with the correct pistons in std. bore. TSR used to use the non-GTI 1600 pistons shaved down 2 mm IIRC with the Heron head to get high compression and that may have been what they suggested.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

If you want that little 1.6 to really open up and scream you need to bore it as big as possible: 83mm

It will require custom pistons cause none of the OEM oversizes went past 81mm as I recall. However it will increase you capacity to the largest possible: 1731cc

If you could score a 1.7 crankshaft which is the same stroke as the 1.8 : 86.4mm you could up the size to 1870cc. either way the 83mm bore makes for a rev happy little motor. Also from the outside, it still looks stock. The whole Heron thing is a bit dated. I had one ran it 150k in 2 years around Germany at 160-190k. IT never failed and it had 150k when I bought it.

Still I would go with the head from an early 1.8 GTI engine and spend as much as you can afford on bigger valves: http://www.techtonicstuning.com/mai...id=104&zenid=8656fe95b80d34e6b26dc17f2ac2b5ae

and port work. Use the 40mm carbs with a 34mm choke


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## Sn00pyb0ttz (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, I am going with the DCOE 40 I just have to get a new choke on them and have them adjusted for my motor settings but that wont be the hard part as I have all that math infont of me as is. I would love to stick with the heron head and as stated before TSR did give me a solution of throwin in a 1800 crank and a set of rods to make a very nice motor but it ust leaves the head and breathing for the motor up in the air for options. An 1800 8v head wont bolt onto my block cause I was told the oil passages do not match up or I would have went the route without thinking twice. A nice big valve 1800 head and highcomp bottom end is what I would like. Lack of support for the heron head is what limits me at the moment. I have a Piper 280 high lift cam sitting in a box waiting for me to start th buld but it is a hih lift cam and I donot want to damage anything in the motor as soon as I wind it up at an event. Valves, retainers, springs, a serious port and poish, multi-angle valve job and fitting bigger valves, and bronze guides are what I want to do but lack of support for the head restricts me.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

You are correct that the 1.8L head (known over here as the "JH") has different oil drains. However, a good machine shop should not have a problem modifying a 1.8L head to fit to your 1.6L block.

I have wanted to build a balanced, high compression 1.6L block, and top it off with a worked 1.8L solid lifter head, and see if it could make power to 8k Rpm. In a lightweight car, with a short ratio transaxle, I bet it would be a lot of fun.


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## Sn00pyb0ttz (Jun 14, 2010)

I read that the main difference between the blocks and heads (1800 and 1600) is that the 1600 has a single oil return vs the 1800 having a double oil return. Anyone have a pic of the two heads with the oil returns for comparison? I am curious cause if this isnt so hard of a job I may just do something a lil more ballsy


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, that sounds correct.

There is definitely a photograph that shows the difference. I'll try to find it.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

I thought you had to keep the 1.6 head for the rules. If not use the 1.8 head. I found this, it is about a 2.0 head but has the pic we need. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4872136-2.0-head-on-1.7-or-1.8&highlight=head


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## Sn00pyb0ttz (Jun 14, 2010)

Heads can be changed but block cant as the check the numbers on the block. as the picture shows and I am very happy to see is that its a very simple mod to the head. If this is the cas you could be very ballsy and place a 16V head onto the 1.6 block with a set of nice pistons and 1800 crank and have a very decent screamer!. When looking at heads for comparison I love the heron head but it is also missing a key feature that the 1800 8v head has and that is a decent squelch area to get better mixture homogenity (sorry if my spelling is wrong) The heron head does not have this. I have a 16v head at the farm that I got for nothing (literally) and I will be dry fittin that to a spare 1600 EG block I have and also looking for an 1800 8v head for some experiments. The block needs to stay in the car via rules but the head can go that works in my favor as the heron head is great but tolerances are to close for comfort as my math from last night show and a talk with my shop builder/buddy... Bigger valves are not an option as they will not seat well in the heron head so 43mm isnt an option. He can do it as it is workable but he stated wont be a reliable motor topend wise which makes sense as you see how close th intake valve seat sits to the spark plug galley. By all means tho if anyone has any better ideas or input on what I just said please feel free to add as I am open for opinions. 








This is an idea of bigger valves in a heron head...








Heron head with single drain to block








1800 8v Head with dual drain








Comparison between the FI 1600 and 1700 (similar to our carb 1600 head over here in Hungary) and a 1800 8v with the dual oil drain
















16V head
This may be another option for 1600 guys that want to go twin cam and cant afford or find an oettinger, graf, or drake head and bits...


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