# Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

I found out what was causing one of my tires to lose air (about 5 PSI per day). There was nothing wrong with the tire, but a stress fracture had developed in the rim, and a tiny bit of air was leaking out of the fracture.
My dealership told me that the rim would be replaced under warranty. There is no evidence of any impact to the rim - in fact, that particular rim is in perfect condition, with no curb rash at all.
Nice to know that the TPMS works well, and provided ample warning of this problem. I'll post a detailed explanation of how to change a tire on a Phaeton (it's not quite as straightforward as it sounds) in the next day or two.
*Stress Fracture in Rim*


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## ehaase (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Michael, out of curiosity do you know what proceedure VW will use to root cause this? Will the dealer get the wheel back to VW Engineering?
When I was at Michelin as a General Motors supplier, defective items were returned by GM dealers to a central processing center for analysis. In the case of tires and wheels, GM has their own in-house enginerring division, (GM Tire and Wheel Systems). TWS would root cause any recurring issue as an early warning system to prevent mass incidents (such as the Explorer/Firestone issue).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (ehaase)*

I don't know what VWs in-house procedure is, but I have already brought this to the attention of the QC manager of the Dresden assembly plant, in case he has any interest in it. My guess is that this wheel will probably be sent out for analysis. It is a very expensive part, about USD $500, for that reason I am sure that the OEM of the part (Borbet, I think) would want to have a close look at it, and know why it suffered the fracture.
From a safety point of view, though, the fracture is a non-issue. I have seen a cutaway of a Challenge wheel, and it actually has a double-wall design. The worst that could have happened if this crack propagated further would have been a total loss of air pressure.
I will dig around later tonight and see if I have a picture of that Challenge wheel cutaway.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (ehaase)*

Hi Ed:
Here's the picture of the Challenge wheel cutaway. This is used in the Phaeton technician training course in Switzerland.
As you can see, the wheel is quite carefully designed - each side of the rim has a different load path, so it is not possible for a crack to propagate across from one side to the other. In a worst-case situation, if my crack had continued to expand across the middle part of the wheel, that would have only resulted in an increased rate of air loss (not a blowout, but just a faster leak). The tire itself would serve as reinforcement to keep the wheel intact.
What fascinates me about the design of this wheel is that part of the spokes are hollow. I am going to guess that this is to make the wheel as light as possible, however, I bet it helps dissipate heat as well.
Michael
*Cutaway of Challenge Wheel used on a Phaeton*








*Murphy's law - the wheel that gets replaced under warranty is the one that has never touched a curb...*


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

I hate to see that happened to you Michael. That wheel looks very thin in most areas. If this is the wheel for the W12s, I would hate to see how thin the Helios wheels are which are forbidden on the W12s.
I didn't realize how thin wheels are made and I guess most are designed that way to keep down weight but I really would like to see them made of more mass. That may be PART of the reason for the poor impact shock of the Phaeton . Suppose more weight (mass) and a larger size tire diameter would help solve that problem that many have brought up? I just feel like my car bounces a little as if there is something loose or disconnected underneath (not that their really is but that's how I explain it). This was my feeling even before lowering the vehicle and letting out some tire pressure. I guess that is my only complaint about the Phaeton from a structural standpoint. A car of this weight should transmit a feeling of authority when it hits a 2" step-up from one road surface to another. Instead , it sends a jarring feeling throughout the frame and up to the steering wheel. Thanks for the post


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## ehaase (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael:
I have never seen a wheel like this at any of the auto assembly plants I have visited....I am very curious as to why it was designed this way and will try to get a wheel expert friend to answer. I am quite certain the VW Corp/Engineering would want this wheel asap for analysis and also an audit of wheels manufactured during the same time period...tires are date and plant coded for date and plant of manufacture..I do not believe wheels are.
David, I do not believe the issue of impact shock would be masked very much by adding mass to the tire/wheel assembly and due to CAFE automakers are always trying to remove mass from all parts of the vehicle. Impact shock would be dampened through changes to the vehicles bushings....however the softer the bushings the greater compromise to the vehicle's handling. 
If you guys have another GTG in Auburn Hills you might be able to get a Michelin Engineer to give a lecture on tires/wheels/suspensions. They do have an OEM Engineering office in suburban Detroit with some enthusiastic gearhead engineers whom are also very brilliant people.


_Modified by ehaase at 7:41 PM 7-11-2005_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_ I just feel like my car bounces a little as if there is something loose or disconnected underneath (not that their really is but that's how I explain it). This was my feeling even before lowering the vehicle and letting out some tire pressure. I guess that is my only complaint about the Phaeton from a structural standpoint. A car of this weight should transmit a feeling of authority when it hits a 2" step-up from one road surface to another. Instead , it sends a jarring feeling throughout the frame and up to the steering wheel. Thanks for the post









David, I think the ride got somewhat worse when we lowered it. Since yours is even lower, why not try an experiment - put your car in lift mode and go drive on your favorite bumpy road. See if adding some suspension travel (by going up to that one inch or so lift) improves the ride. I'm thinking about trying this too.


_Modified by Paldi at 10:53 PM 7-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_I hate to see that happened to you Michael. That wheel looks very thin in most areas. 

Hi David:
Well - given a choice between changing a leaking wheel and living through a hurricane - I'd choose to change the wheel! How are y'all doing down there, anyway? It looks from the met reports to be a fairly strong depression.
I don't think the wheel is 'thin' at all. Remember that the outer part of the wheel only serves to provide a lid - a sealing surface - for the tire. The rubber tire itself is plenty heavy, and also plenty rigid and strong, so the outer circumference of the rim doesn't need to do much more than just keep the air in the tire.
I think the real load bearing work is being done by the spokes in the middle, and they are very strong. The hub in the very middle of the Challenge wheel is much, much substantial than the hub on the middle of a main landing gear of a Canadair Regional Jet, and those jets weigh about 50,000 pounds and need to be able to take up to a 4 G impact on landing.
Fred makes a good point about the lower suspension settings possibly affecting the ride of the car. I'm quite happy with how my car rides, but Fred noticed a difference right away when I dropped his car from 77 coding to 55 coding. His hypothesis is that if the car is coded to ride higher, then the suspension controller knows that it has more room available for rebound damping when the wheel comes up after hitting a bump. I never thought about the suspension design from that point of view, but I do admit, there is logic to it. He drove both his V8 (coded at 55) and my W12 (also coded at 55) and didn't notice much of a difference. I drove his V8 after I coded and adapted it to 55, and thought it rode just fine - exactly like my W12. So, obviously, we both agree based on our subjective evaluations.
Michael


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## vwtoys (Mar 31, 1999)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Looks like a rather complex casting. I'd imagine it's a lost wax type mold. I'm no expert in castings but there could be a multitude of things causing the fracture. Could be porosity in the material, thin wall (core moved, in this case the lip is actually quite thick so i don't think this is the case) or the type of surface finish of the machined wheel prior to paint, or many other things. I don't think these get 100% x-rayed so it could be just a bad example of the lot. unless more of these failures pop up i'd think it's just an individual case.


_Modified by vwtoys at 10:39 PM 7-11-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (vwtoys)*

I agree with you - I also guess that it is a 'one of a kind' problem. I am sure we would have heard about it before (here on the forum) if it happened to anyone else.
Anyway - my VW dealership ordered a new wheel, it will be here Wednesday. They even offered to let me take the spare from their Phaeton loaner with me for the next two days, so I would not be without a spare.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (ehaase)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ehaase* »_ Will the dealer get the wheel back to VW Engineering?

Hi Ed:
I received an email from my friend at the Transparent Factory in Dresden - they are very concerned about this fracture and want to see the wheel. They have put a formal request into the system to have the wheel sent back to Dresden via VW of A. I am going to Europe next week, and offered to bring the wheel over as checked baggage (I still have the wheel shipping boxes left over from the 4 Performance wheels that I purchased from Adrian). So, one way or another, the wheel will get back to Dresden for more thorough investigation and NDT.
Michael


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (dcowan699)*

I have seen several photos of different wheel sliced like that, and the thickness looks the same as others, so I don't think that is a problem.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

The Phaeton technician at my VW dealership phoned me at my home this evening - someone from VW in Auburn Hills called my dealership service department, and requested that they send the entire wheel assembly (tire, rim, the works) via courier to Auburn Hills. So, I guess this means that VW is taking this crack quite seriously, although to be honest, I am not all that concerned about it.
I was hoping that we could re-use the tire, since there is no damage of any kind to the tire, and it matches the wear on the other tires. However, it seems I will get a new tire and a new TPMS assembly to go inside the wheel. I'll take some photos when the staff at my dealership assemble all those parts, and put the photos here.
Regards,
Michael


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## ehaase (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

That is prudent of VW to play it safe and request the entire assembly for thorough analysis. They will probably check for any signs of mounter damage or impact shock that you may have not been aware of...just to possibly rule them out and then go from there. They will want to be absolutely certain that this is an isolated case of manufacturing anomoly or caused by an outside influence. It will be interesting to hear what they detrmine the root cause to be.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Michael...
This problem may have precipitated from the unavoidable high-speed off-roading you did in the Phaeton back in February.... It is very fortunate that you and your family did not get hurt.

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
...At this time of the year, it is common to get fairly severe snow squalls in the area around London, Ontario. It doesn't matter which way the wind is blowing, it will pick up moisture off either Lake Erie or Lake Huron. Today was no exception, and the roads were icy, with visibility occasionally dropping down to 1/8 mile in blowing snow. All was going well until a driver ahead of me decided to change lanes, and lost control when he/she crossed the windrow of snow between the lanes of the expressway. This started a multiple car accident, and pretty soon vehicles were sliding all over, right ahead of me. Not good.
I steered the Phaeton towards the right shoulder of the road - thanks to Electronic Stability and the heavy weight of the Phaeton, it headed exactly where I pointed it - and we went off the road, down the rather steeply sloped shoulder at about 45 MPH or so. Pretty soon we were bouncing through snow, gravel, and slush, the kind of territory more suited to a Touareg than a Phaeton. I kept the power on, I sure didn't want to stop down there, first because I figured I'd never get out again if I did stop, and second because I didn't want to get hit by other vehicles from this multi-car collision that was now going on beside me, back up on the roadway.
A few seconds later, I managed to get back up on the expressway. No apparent damage to the Phaeton, but the message "Suspension Fault - Workshop" was present in the display. We got to the funeral on time, did that, and on the way back, I stopped first at a car wash, and then second at the Volkswagen dealer in Sarnia, Ontario...


Here is a link to the source thread.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (copernicus0001)*

I suppose that is possible - but, I kind of doubt it. That little excursion was mostly through snow that had fallen within the past 24 hours, for that reason, I don't think there were any 'impacts' to the rim. Also, that was February, and this is July - that is a long time for such a crack to develop.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

Here are two photos Larry sent me that show the crack in his wheel.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

I am very disapointed that the Phaeton Hotline folks called me today and said that they would not assist at all on replacing this wheel. They feel it might have had impact damage. I don't know where or how during the 90 days that I have had the vehicle that it had any incident. Sadly they don't even want to assist helping me get a wheel at cost. 
Does anybody know how I can communicate directly with Ralph Potter of VW Quality Management. He evidently is the one who reviewed this incident. 
Also, Anybody have just one CHALLENGE ALLOY WHEEL FOR SALE.
Larry


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

Your rim seems to show some damage right next to the fracture. Michael's rim didn't seem to show any damage in that area.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (spockcat)*

I now have the tire and rim back from Baron. I am going to have another unbiased party look at the rim. That mark by the crack is some of the dirt that was not washed off the wheel very well when I cleaned it. The rim if you rub you hand over the crack feels straight and true. I'm not an expert, but I do run a Fleet of about 300 trucks, So I know what a damaged wheel or abused wheel looks like on a car or a Tractor-trailer.
The tire shows no signs of damage. which to me is strange if the wheel was hit hard enough to do damage enough to crack it. 
so the story goes on until I know what happened. 
I will have a Michelin tire distributor break it down and inspect the tire and rim so we can see the rest of the rim after the tire is unmounted. 
You would think there would be some evident damage to the exterior of the tire. Perhaps we will see it once the bead is unseated from the wheel. 
Its disapointing that VW Phaeton hotline and the dealer would not supply me with the person making the decisions phone number.


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (spockcat)*

In the full picture of the rim it appears that about 9" are very slightly depressed giving the wheel a slight out of round appearance around the fracture. This could be an optical illusion from the camera, but I'm guessing that wheel hit a curb, probably well before you got the car. This is probably why VW didn't replace the wheel. Either before or after you dismount the tire, spin the wheel on a balancer and check for run out at the rim. If it's more than a few thousands of an inch, chances are it was whacked.
Rob


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Gobuster)*

We will try the spin Balancer....Good Idea. I am going to let unbiased folks make an opinion for me. But from the Customer service side. My VW dealer only offered to sell me a replacement at List. I asked about any discounts and he said none. Makes you want to sell the vehicle. at least with other brands your get a fleet discount.


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

If the wheel was whacked you might accept having to pay full price although a discount to lessen the unexpected blow would be nice. On a BMW, they might give you a discount -but- would charge twice as much for the rim!!! I've found, for the most part, Phaeton parts are reasonable, perhaps a legacy of dealing with a manufacturer that makes "peoples" cars. Benz and BMW sock it to you with the approach "you've got to pay to play" in their arena.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Gobuster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gobuster* »_ Either before or after you dismount the tire, spin the wheel on a balancer and check for run out at the rim. If it's more than a few thousands of an inch, chances are it was whacked.

Hi Rob:
That's an excellent idea - thanks for suggesting it. I was trying to figure out how it would be possible for a person to measure a rim for runout, and never thought of such a simple and straightforward idea.
Michael


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

Kcmover,
Hi, respectfuly I have to say that what I'm seeing is not a stress crack. I've been in the car business too long and I can say I've never seen a "Stress" crack on an alloy rim. The pressure of a rubber tire is not possible to crack a rim. However the impact of compressing the low profile tire to a solid subject as a pothole will crack the rim. 
The alloy rim is not easily bendable and will crack before it bends. Metal rims bend easily and will show obvious impacts. I've seen many small flat impact spots on metal rims and the tires look just fine. Sometimes the tires will include a bubble on the side at the bend. 
A well made tire will just absorb and flex back with no evidence of damage. Your rim is the only evidence of impact to a hard object.
Also, I don't think the VW dealer sold you the car with the crack. Your TPM would've come on a long time ago.
PanEuro, if the dealer replaced your rim under warranty, your are lucky man. 
Best regards, gentlemen.
Werner


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## vwtoys (Mar 31, 1999)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

That wheel defintely hit something. It's bent just by looking at the photo.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (AusSalzburg)*

Since I have been traveling this week, I didn't have the chance to follow up on what my tire guy has found. But when I do get info I will post it here. 
A friend told me to check with NATSA.GOV site and to see if there were any reports there. I found the following but have not seen the reserch yet
Office of Defects Investigation


Technical Service Bulletins - Search Results
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report Date : October 22, 2005 at 01:22 PM 
SEARCH TYPE : VEHICLE 
YEAR : 2004 
Make : VOLKSWAGEN 
Model : PHAETON 
Type : PASSENGER CAR 

Make : VOLKSWAGEN Model : PHAETON Year : 2004 
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC 
Service Bulletin Num : 0407 Date of Bulletin: DEC 20, 2004 
NHTSA Item Number: 10011910 
Component: TIRESRESSURE MONITORING AND REGULATING SYSTEMS 
Summary: 
TIRE PRESSURE MONITORING SYSTEM, MODULE CODING. *TT 


Make : VOLKSWAGEN Model : PHAETON Year : 2004 
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC 
Service Bulletin Num : 0406 Date of Bulletin: DEC 08, 2004 
NHTSA Item Number: 10011909 
Component: TIRESRESSURE MONITORING AND REGULATING SYSTEMS 
Summary: 
TIRE PRESSURE MONITORING SYSTEM (TPMS), DIAGNOSING. *TT 


Does anybody have this info.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kcmover* »_Does anybody have this info?

Yes, it is here on the forum, towards the bottom of this thread: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design and Function.
The first TB is two pages, and just clarifies to the Phaeton technician how to code a new controller when it is replaced.
The second TB is about 12 pages, and contains detailed instructions for advanced diagnosis of the system.
Michael


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

*w *Had my expert check the well and the conclusion is that the wheel is damaged from hitting something like a chuck hole. I guess that I didn't want to hear that but now I know. 
Now its time to decided what to do with replacement. Should I just buy one wheel and move on. Or buy a new set of wheels. Of course it might even be good to buy a winter set of tires and wheels. 
If I buy just one. Then I could be Audi Wheel as the spare in the trunk and wouldn't have to match.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

I have a used Challenge. No tire or TPMS. The paint is chipped at the bead of the outer rim 40 percent around the wheel - as if a tire removal tool skimmed off the paint. I am going to look into having it repaired. (The damage is not in the tire-to-wheel seal area.)
I was going to use this to test taller and/or wider tires, but may skip it if the 5 Bentley wheels and tires I just bought off ebay fit. So, if you can wait a couple of weeks, this wheel may be offered for sale as-is or repaired.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Paldi)*

Paldi,
Keep me posted. I hope your Bentley wheels work. Grea Idea if they do work. I will keep your wheel in mind but am looking at Chromes for my car. 
Larry


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (Kcmover)*

Final posting to my saga........ I had a local company here in Kansas City that I had used on Alloy Wheels before take a look at my wheel. They took my wheel and sent it to their corportate Headquarters in Georgia and reworked, Welded and restored the wheel to factory Specs. 
I received the wheel this morning by UPS and it looks better then new. I was told by AWRS the the wheel is as good as new and where it was repaired its even stronger. 
Only time will tell if it really is stronger but I'm happy as the price to fix the wheel was a lot cheaper then a new one ($150.00) 
Larry

The companies web site is:
http://www.mobilewheelrepair.com/services.htm

























The company that did the repair










_Modified by Kcmover at 11:34 AM 11-7-2005_


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## uberanalyst (Sep 13, 2004)

Before I take my Phaeton into the dealer, any idea what might be causing this improper behavior of the TPMS?
1. When the rear tire picked up a nail and went flat, the TPMS correctly indicated "Flat Tyre," but the yellow warning triangles indicated that all 5 tires were at fault.
2. After the flat tire was replaced with a new one and TPMS re-calibrated from a cold start, the system correctly read 40 or 41 psi at each axle. Then a day later (without any faults being indicated), checking the TPMS shows "0" (zero) for both axles. (And yes, there's still plenty of air in the tires).
Any ideas of what could be causing this?
- Dave


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (uberanalyst)*


_Quote, originally posted by *uberanalyst* »_...a day later (without any faults being indicated), checking the TPMS shows "0" (zero) for both axles. (And yes, there's still plenty of air in the tires).

Dave:
Is there any accompanying error message (flat tire, defective wheel on board, etc.) along with the reading of zero?
Michael


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## uberanalyst (Sep 13, 2004)

No error messages -- just a reading of zero PSI for both front and rear axles. No yellow triangles. Everything looks normal except for the zeros.
- Dave


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*TPMS displayed Defective wheel again*

Going down the Highway today and the Defective wheel sign came on. Went to the display and there was no tire pressure info displayed for the front or rear - nothing. I went and hit reset and the system went through learning again. After 15 mins at Highway speed it reset and the front pressure had dropped to 39 lbs from 40 lbs. What's going on. 
The vehicle had already been driven over 100 miles today prior to this occuring. 
Here we go again. (hopefully not)
By the way, I have not remounted the fixed wheel yet. So there is no wheel in the truck and has not been one there for the last three weeks. 


_Modified by Kcmover at 3:03 PM 11-9-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TPMS displayed Defective wheel again (Kcmover)*

I have no idea why the system would give you that message, or require a new learning process.
But, so far as the change in indicated pressure is concerned - that you can safely disregard. I have noticed that the pressure displayed on the screen can vary by up to 2 or 3 pounds from the actual pressure as measured by a gauge. I think this is because the TPMS 'normalizes' the pressures that it displays to a certain predetermined temperature - this to prevent the display from changing from day to day as a result of ambient temperature changes.
It is also possible that the previously measured pressure was 39.6 and the newly measured pressure was 39.4 - in such a case the system would round the numbers, using normal rules. I am sure that there must be a bit of tolerance for error (lack of accuracy) in the sensors - how much, I don't know, but 2/10ths of a pound does not seem excessive.
Michael


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: TPMS displayed Defective wheel again (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I guess its just one of those Phaeton Quirks..... Have to get used to them. My previous vehicle was a Caddy DTS. The Caddy's tire pressure sensor was for each wheel and it made it easy to see what the pressure was at anytime either cold or hot so you could see it fluctuate through out the day. Not sure why GM has a better system then VW but it was.
*Follow up......... Its now 4 hours later since I posted this message and my guess now is that the sensor came on due to the change in temperture as it dropped about 15 degree's. Maybe Michael might have a comment on this.*
Larry


_Modified by Kcmover at 8:24 PM 11-9-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Hello All:
Just a note here for the benefit of anyone who might have a crack in a rim and may have found this discussion while looking for further information about the subject:
Please note that *this discussion took place 4 years ago, back in 2005*, when Phaetons were brand new. The crack that I had in my rim developed when my car had 11,000 km on it (about 7,000 miles).
It is now 2009. If anyone has been unfortunate enough to encounter a cracked rim in 2009 (or later), please first consider that your car is somewhere between 4 and 6 years old, and your car probably has 80,000 km (50,000 miles) or more on it by now. The likelihood that a crack in your rim would be caused by a manufacturing defect - as opposed to hitting something, whether you were aware of hitting something or not - is just about zero.
In other words, please let's not have anyone reviving this thread by posting a note to the effect of _"My 2004 Phaeton, with 50,000 miles on it, has a cracked rim - I am sure it is a manufacturing defect". _ Think about it for a moment - if it was a manufacturing defect, it would have shown up a long, long time ago.
Michael


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## CLMims (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for bringing this up Michael; I have a slow leak now and am trying to decide whether or not to buy a replacement Challenge wheel or spring for 3 Performance wheels (my spare is a Performaance for some reason)...
Do you know if the Challenge wheels have been reworked or strengthened at all? (I'm too lazy to look up the part number suffix right now







)


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (CLMims)*

It may not be a cracked wheel at all. It could be a bad valve or valve stem or even a dirty bead seating on your wheel. I had to have a wheel once broken down and had it steamed cleaned as it had developed a lot of dirt build up on it . Never had a problem after that. The dirt kept the bead from being 100 percent sealed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (CLMims)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CLMims* »_Do you know if the Challenge wheels have been reworked or strengthened at all? 

Chris, I don't think there was ever anything wrong with them in the first place. As far as I can tell, they are the most robust of all the wheels offered (perhaps tied with the Performance wheel for strength).
Michael


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## CLMims (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Larry, I don't think it would be the stem or bead (I replaced both the sensor and the stem, had the tire shop check the bead seating, and the tire has less than 600 miles on it







) They pressure-checked the tire and said there were no leaks, so I'm at a loss except for the cracked wheel possibility...
Michael, I appreicate your response - I'll probably order another Challenge wheel unless someone on the Forum has a spare they don't need...


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## wkoenning (Jan 9, 2008)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (CLMims)*

Michael,
Thanks for bumping this thread to the top. I have mentioned a couple of times on this board that I have had 3 cracked Challenge rims on my '04 (and I suspect a 4th on my passenger rear tire currently) all causing a slow leak. Even with these problems I do agree with you that it was wear and tear that caused these cracks as I live down a long gravel road in the country and I have over 147K miles on the car. Up until I saw your original post and cut-away pictures I would have absolutely agreed with you that there was NOT a design flaw in the rims, but I am now reconsidering my thinking.
The reason for my change of heart is the very _thin_ and *hollow???* spokes. While 1 of my rims cracked like yours along the rim, the other 2 were cracked spokes. I read the original thread from the beginning and there was speculation that the designers might have made the spokes hollow in order to save weight or for cooling, and that might be true, but in doing so they also reduced the structural integrety and safety of the wheel. While some might consider this a design trade-off, others could easily interperet it as a design flaw...


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Stress Fracture in 'Challenge' Alloy Wheel (wkoenning)*

Here is an ad for 4 challenge wheels on ebay. $599.00 with free freight. Maybe it might be helpful for a wheel challenged owner. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...orted


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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