# Coolant leak v8 at oil cooler



## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Help!!! I have a coolant leak coming from the area under the oil filter housing where the cooler is. My thought is the little plastic pipe between the cooler and the engine block. I have the alternator removed but am wondering what's next. Can I get to the cooler without dropping the engine?


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Nobody?


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

boreal said:


> Nobody?


I think that's a new one here on the forums. I can't even really recall exactly where and how the oil cooler sits in our engine bay. 

Do you think the pipe itself is leaking? I think those usually have little o-rings at either end, but it's not likely for those to just wear out and fail. O-rings that do not contact moving parts tend to last a really long time.


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

IwasHuman said:


> I think that's a new one here on the forums. I can't even really recall exactly where and how the oil cooler sits in our engine bay.
> 
> Do you think the pipe itself is leaking? I think those usually have little o-rings at either end, but it's not likely for those to just wear out and fail. O-rings that do not contact moving parts tend to last a really long time.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6889773-GruvenParts-com-Releases-New-Parts-for-the-Phaeton!!

Maybe I'm wrong. If they're making replacements in billet then it must be an issue. I guess I've just never read a thread about this.


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

I ordered that part from Gruvenparts today. The leak is coming from inside the oil filter housing where the cooler is so I figure there is a good chance it's the problem. I will post more info as soon as I get the darn housing off! The Gruvenparts site talks about 7 hours labour.


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

It comes out of the housing?! Holy hell. Take pics, but ou might be in sort of uncharted diy territory. Good luck, and Godspeed. 


Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk 2


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

After looking at this again I have decided to drop the engine and transmission. It's a good thing that I work at a VW dealer and have the engine/transmission table. Let us prey!:facepalm:


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

Holy moly! 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk 2


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm confused. You work at a VW dealer and you're asking US???

Don't forget to take pictures!


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

In Canada there were very few VW dealerships that sold and serviced the Phaeton. In the Montreal area only two. Neither of them ever saw this type of leak.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

No Touaregs either???


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Update on my coolant leak. The engine and tranny came down and when we removed the oil filter housing we found the culprit. The oil cooler had sprung a leak. Upon removing the cooler,the little plastic pipe between the block and the cooler snapped off at the slightest touch. I had pre ordered the Gruvenparts billet replacement pipe so along with a new cooler we were back in business. While we were on a roll, both rear lower front suspension arms,stab bar links,l/s tierod end,engine oil and filter change,coolant flush,2 v/belt rollers and a frt coolant pipe that was ready to pop.
The final tally isn't pretty but my job cuts me lots of perks. It is what it is and I still love the car.
Bill


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Bill, is it possible to do this job without moving the engine or transmission?


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

"Bill, is it possible to do this job without moving the engine or transmission?"

No way!!! We tried. There is no access to the top bolts of the housing without dropping the engine. The Audi V8 guys talk about a way of loosening motor mount bolts and jacking up engine but it won't work on the Phaeton. Way too tight and not worth even trying. The two Phaeton authorized dealers in my area have only seen one other case and the car ended up being parted out. So sad.
This winters trip to Cabo is on hold.


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

I've got the same problem and am trying to fix it without taking the engine out. So far have alternator out, and lots of stuff off the front like radiator hoses, serpentine belt tensioner, timing belt covers, idler pulley/bracket, cooling pump, wheel arch, washer reservoir, and 4 bolts out of the cooler bracket.

Getting stuck with the top left bolt on the cooler. Looks like the exhaust manifold needs to come off before I can loosen up and move the hard plastic line that is blocking the last bolt that presses into the top of the cooler.

Planing on dropping the sway bar and cross brace to try and get at exhaust manifold bolts and will see if that helps.

6 hours in and nowhere near half way yet. You were right, this is some job...


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Gentlemen,
Do you have any pics of this work? I would be nice and a benefit to all with a pictorial.

Thanks,

Damon


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Engine and tranny have to come out. Ther is no other way we could see. I work at a VW dealer so we have the engine/transmission table and alot of the work was done after hours.. Doing this job without the table would be next to impossible. You are going to have to bite the bullet and take it to a VW or Audi dealer that has the tools. Its a big job so they may cut you some slack on the labour rate if they are quiet. Sorry to be the Grim Reaper.
Bill


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

Looks like I know what I'm doing for the holidays.... bummer. 

How many hours of labor did it take you to do the job with a shop, engine/trans table and all the tools?

Going to try and tackle it in my garage, it's a big project but I'm not afraid....

If successful, I'll post photos but if I fail; I don't want any reminders to haunt me on the net for yeast to come of my huge mistake... tried to post some shots of the job so far and parts but since I'm a new member don't think I've got permission to do that yet sorry.


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

Getting ready to re-attack on Friday. The more I look at it, the more I think that taking off the sway bar support cross-member will give me enough room to get the exhaust manifold bolts off and once that's out of the way the oil cooler should be fully accessible and come out without too much trouble. 

But I've got the hard part done, talking about it. Will see if I get lucky or not in a few days.

Not sure how many times you have to post before you can attach photo's, anyone know?


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

You can add photos on your first day.... But you will need a server place to host the images. There are free ones, do a search...


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

Thanks for the info. Not super web savvy so will just have for forgo posting the photo's.


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## Phaeton_qatar (Jun 20, 2012)

> Help!!! I have a coolant leak coming from the area under the oil filter housing where the cooler is. My thought is the little plastic pipe between the cooler and the engine block. I have the alternator removed but am wondering what's next. Can I get to the cooler without dropping the engine?


Hi Bill,

How many miles on your phaeton ? I'm thinking is it high mileage or weather that caused of the broken oil cooler.

I'm doing the timing belt for my phaeton and ordered all the parts from Gruvenparts like oil filter cap, linkage manifold and the oil cooler. but the VW dealer technical suggested not to do the oil cooler since he had to drop the engine down. I have 78120km(48541miles) and not sure if I should go ahead with this or just wait for it to leak 

Asad


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Phaeton_qatar said:


> VW dealer technical suggested not to do the oil cooler


Salam Asad,

I don't think changing the Oil cooler is part of the timing belt routine. Most leaks as I read come from the small "water tube" PN# 077117411A! which is attached to the cooler.

Regards,

Salah


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Phaeton_qatar said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> How many miles on your phaeton ? I'm thinking is it high mileage or weather that caused of the broken oil cooler.
> 
> ...


My car has 170,000 kms. When the leak happened, I ordered the billet replacement pipe from Gruvenparts because everything was pointing in that direction. When I got the oil filter hausing off I saw that the leak was coming from a small crack in the cooler. As soon as I removed the cooler the plastic pipe snapped off. That plastic pipe is going to break some day. The question is when? It's a money call.
This repair hurt but I still think it's a great car.
Bill


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## Saeid (May 29, 2013)

Hi LTMAX,
any luck? I am stuck in the same spot just need to take the top middle bolt out.
Saeid


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Coolant pulling the "Great escape" on me near the cap


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

Sorry everyone that I've been off line for the last 4 weeks. Caught a nasty bout of the Flu and was sick as a dog up until last week. 

Finally got to work on the Phaeton yesterday and after a few hours of trying to get the oil cooler assembly out I gave up on it and decided to try my luck just putting new o-rings on the alternator cooling pipes. 

The four o-rings I took off were worn and two of them were frayed around the edge so I think that may have been my problem all along. The exterior of the pipe just above where the o-ring seals had some visible corrosion so it must have been leaking there. 

It took about 5 hours to get it all back together and it seems to be completely fixed but since it was raining all day today I can't really tell so will have to watch it for a few days and see.

Since I'm not an expert on putting pictures on the web, if someone wants to attach photo's just send me a pm and I'll send some nice pictures of the project.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Welcome back and thanks for the update

Regards,

Salah


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

Well my leak isn't completely fixed but it's only a fraction of what is was before. It sat all day at work and the puddle was only about 3 inches across where before it would be about 18" so that equates to maybe a cap full of coolant daily. The system still holds pressure after the leak stops because if you unscrew the radiator cap you can hear the hiss of pressure bleeding off. Going to try a can of stop leak and take my chances, if it only needs to be topped off once a month I can live with that.

Max


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

No, don't try stop leak it will clog your heat exchanger. When that happens you have to remove the dash to replace that part.
I had the same problem a few years ago, But I couldn't find the cause so I used stop leak, after 3 months my heat exchanger stopped working 100% it only heats up to 20 degrees, so it is clogged somewhere. Stop leak did solve the leak, but now two years later it leaks again, now I know what the cause is. It was the same problem two years ago, So I'm sure I need to replace that plastic pipe on the oil cooler.
Are you sure it is not possible to exhange that part without removing the engine?
Is there a way when removing the whole fender?

thanks Jorg


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Sorry guys but the engine has to be dropped. Point finale. It sucks, but it is what it is. Find a VW or Audi dealer that has the engine table and talk to the Service Manager. It's a good job for them. If you are not in a rush I am sure they could cut you some slack on the labor rate. A nice Oregon Pinot Noir can go a long way.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

Any idea how much time they need?


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Here are Max's pics:













Regards,

Salah


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

what are the part numbers of these rings?
jorg


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

057198405, they all come in one bag


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## tomasty (May 24, 2011)

I saw in the photo your coolant is green in color, are you using the right coolant? VW G12++ should be pink in color.

Tomas


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Hello Tomas,

Nothing but G13 (Pink) now in my neighborhood 

Regards,

Salah


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Hi guys,

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to maybe revisit if changing the coolant pipes does require removal of the motor. I submit to you, these images:

This is an image of the subframe removed and the engine supported from above. As you can see, the engine mount is in the way.


This is an image with the mount removed. It seems like there may be decent access now. Would someone like to comment whether it can be done now? It is still a fair amount of work but the engine and transmission stay put!

Regards,

Damon


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## Saeid (May 29, 2013)

Hi Damon
You don't have to remove the engine *IF* you could access all the bolts but the problem is the last bold which is behind the coolant pipe that is under the manifold and covers most of the bold access.
I have removed all the nuts on the manifold/engine and also to the lower pipe but in order to get to the oil cooler housing you must remove the manifold. That is were I have stopped for now. I think if the manifold bolts where removed from the engine body the manifold would be able to be remove and access to the oil cooler assembly would be easily achieved but two of the bolts for the manifold at the bottom you do not have access to remove them so hopefully those two do not have to be removed.
et me know if you get any further than me.
Thanks,
Saeid


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

If somebody succeed in replacing the coolant pipe without dropping the engine, let us know.

Jorg


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

Is somebody planning to try to fix this or investigate this in about a few weeks? Otherwise my dealership will remove the engine. Also, Damon and Saeid, how many hours did you need till now.

Thanks Jorg


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Bite the bullet and tell the dealer to drop the engine/tranny. It sucks, but it is what it is. Be nice to the dealer Service Manager and he should cut you some slack on the hours.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I know about that, but when it is possible to do it without removing the engine, I will do it myself.
But when it sure needs to be removed I also like to do preventing maintenance to the engine, so it will cost me much more then 1500-2000 euros
Dealership quoted me 1600 euros for dropping the engine.
If the engine should be dropped, can you give me suggestion what to replace also?

thanks Jorg


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Jorg,
While the engine is down it would be the ideal time to replace the timing belt/tensioners/water pump/accessory belt/thermostat if not already done. Also the front suspension arms and tie rods.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

What about the camshaft chain and tensioners are they accessable when engine is inside the car?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The front tensioner, which is the one that causes the noise problem, is only accessible by stripping the top of the engine. Might be worth looking at your motor mounts.


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

You have access to them with the engine installed but much easier when it is down. My valve covers were sweating a bit so I cleaned them up and gave the bolts a half turn. So far so good.
Tensioners are pricey. I would leave them alone unless they are noisy. Preventative maint is great but there are limits. Good luck. 

Bill


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

How do I know they are worn, are they fluid filled or just rubber mounts? Stripping the top of the engine can be done inside the car right? And what about lambda sensors?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You're talking about preventative maintenance, are you not? Pretty much everything is worn! If I recall correctly, the mounts are pretty sophisticated fluid/electronic gizmos. Most of the engine-out procedures, however, seem to occur on the W12, hence I don't own one! I thought all the lambda sensors on the V8 could be reached without engine removal. The only other things I can think of that fail that might be more easily accessible are the coolant sensors.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Jorgsphaeton said:


> Is somebody planning to try to fix this or investigate this in about a few weeks? Otherwise my dealership will remove the engine. Also, Damon and Saeid, how many hours did you need till now.
> 
> Thanks Jorg


I actually do not need to have this done. The images are from when I had the transmission replaced without dropping the motor. I was hoping it would help offer a possible alternative . The A6 guys seem to indicate that removal of exhaust manifold or removal of one manifold stud is required to gain access to the last hidden bolt. If you can remove the manifold without dropping the motor, then you may be able to accomplish this. Just trying to help. 

Damon


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

LTMAX said:


> Sorry everyone that I've been off line for the last 4 weeks. Caught a nasty bout of the Flu and was sick as a dog up until last week.
> 
> Finally got to work on the Phaeton yesterday and after a few hours of trying to get the oil cooler assembly out I gave up on it and decided to try my luck just putting new o-rings on the alternator cooling pipes.
> 
> ...


Did you try to remove the manifold? and did you succeed on that part and did it went wrong on something else, or was it impossible to remove the manifold? What was the final point where you gave up?

thanks Jorg


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

After changing out the 4 o-rings on the alternator cooling lines the majority of my coolant leak went away. It still drips a little bit after driving it to work in the morning but after cooling down for about an hour the drip stops and the system keeps pressure so I've resigned myself to living with the small leak. Took it on a few long trips and it doesn't use a drop and at night when I get home it doesn't leak either. 

I'd really love to fix it completely but the labor involved seems to be horrendous. The more I look at it the more I think that the engine will need to be dropped down at least 4-6 inches so the exhaust manifold is below the frame rail in order to get the exhaust manifold off. Don't see how you can get the oil cooler assembly off with the exhaust manifold on as there is one bolt on top that is obstructed and the black metal pipe that slides into the top middle of the oil cooler can't come off with the manifold setting down right on top of it either. There just isn't any way around it. 

If my leak gets worse than I'll re-attack this spring or summer when the weather is nicer but until then I'm just going to drive it and settle for some unsightly coolant stains at my work parking lot.

Max


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

This refers to an A6 equiped with the same motor and is similar in architecture but suggests that it is possible to perform the repair without dipping the motor:

http://www.justanswer.com/audi/467cl-audi-a6-2001-audi-a6-4-2-experiencing-coolant-leak-cool.html

Damon


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

As I understand from Max, it is only possible when the engine can be dropped a few inches to remove the manifolt, but is that possible? 5 inch is a lot with the engine still mounted to transmission, enginemounts etc, I think.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Here is a similar situation with a D3 A8:

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a8-s8-d3-platform-discussion-60/2006-a8-oil-cooler-2866159/

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a8-s8-d3-platform-discussion-60/2006-a8-oil-cooler-2866159/


Damon


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## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

Final answer. The engine must come down. I will not post on this subject again.
Bill


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

It is just hard to believe that replacing a 10 dollar piece will cost 2000 dollar, while we are so close to get the Job done ourselves


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## c4sey (Jun 22, 2011)

*Oil cooler removal*



Jorgsphaeton said:


> It is just hard to believe that replacing a 10 dollar piece will cost 2000 dollar, while we are so close to get the Job done ourselves


Hi Jorgsphaeton, don't worry and just do the job. Exhost manifold must be removed, no way around it. I did replace this famous plastic pipe, which was causing the coolant leak in my situation, about a year ago. I've used an engine suspension bridge to be able to move the engine as much as possible to the driver side, right side engine mount and a bracket was off, plus exhost manifold removed, alternator, etc. etc. pretty nusty job, but if you have a garage and full set of tools, plus plenty of time, you can do this jod youself. No engine/ trany need to be dropped. Also a good helper will make some operation steps much easier.

Thanks,
Casey


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow so you did succeed to do this Job on a phaeton v8?
That looks promising, I got the tools and time


Jorg


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Thank you Casey!


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## payday (May 13, 2010)

Quick question: How do you remove the coolant lines to the alternator?
I'm attempting the same repair of the oil cooler, but the instructions I have don't mention the alternator with coolant lines (instructions are based on the A8).
Thanks.


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## LTMAX (Nov 30, 2014)

Going from memory last month, here are the steps.

1. Disconnect batteries
2. Jack up right front or entire front of car
3. Remove right front wheel and splash guard, and front half of the inner fender liner and fold fender liner back over wheel/axle assembly
4. Remove wiper washer tank and coolant pump from between front wheel and front fender (careful with the electrical connections and take your time as it's tight in there
5. Remove serpentine belt
6. Remove alternator hoses from back of alternator
7. Remove air box on passenger side to get access to top of oil filter housing where coolant hoses attach to
8. Remove hoses from oil filter housing
9. Put it all back together and enjoy 

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Max


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok I made my decision and give it a try. I ordered the Bufkin pipe, and waiting to arrive in a few weeks. I think I will make some pictures and a write up for all of us.

Jorg


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## evmaddy (Dec 18, 2014)

Jorgsphaeton said:


> Ok I made my decision and give it a try. I ordered the Bufkin pipe, and waiting to arrive in a few weeks. I think I will make some pictures and a write up for all of us.
> 
> Jorg


Awesome Jörg, I'm very interested to see the photos!


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

With how many bolt is the oil cooler attached to the engine? I only see 4 including the one behind the black coolant pipe. Did you remove the engine damper bracket attached to the engine block also?

Jorg


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## c4sey (Jun 22, 2011)

*Oil filter housing*



Jorgsphaeton said:


> With how many bolt is the oil cooler attached to the engine? I only see 4 including the one behind the black coolant pipe. Did you remove the engine damper bracket attached to the engine block also?
> 
> Jorg


Jorg, sorry for the late answer, I just came back from a trip. I've checked my notes on parts I was planing to buy in preparation for the job. Probably you have this info already, but if not, here it is:
It looks like I was planing to order 5 bolts: 4 of them are number 15 on diagram, bolt part number N107 000 01, size M10x65
1 bolt is number 16 on diagram, bolt part number M903 316 05, size M10x40
Original (plastic pipe = never buy and install) pipe part number, just for a reference, is 077117411a
Oil seals for these pipe are part number 077121437

I removed all big "chunks" of aluminum on the cooler side of engine, including an engine mount, an alternator and an exhaust plenum. Hope this helps.
Casey


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

Thanks, so far I only have to unscrew two Bolts from the oilfilter housing, one I did not see because I have to remove the engine mount bracket and the famous hidden bolt. To remove the black pipe in front of it I have to wait for some tools to remove one bolt of the exhaust manifolt, it blocks the black pipe. So only a few things and the oilfilter housing is off, as far as I can see. I make a good chance to succeed after 12 hours of labour.
Jorg


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I can announce that I succeeded, with removing and reinstalling the oilfilter housing with a new bufkin pipe and new o-rings. I can say that the oilfilter housing is even made for being removed without dropping the engine. It perfectly slides down between some parts in the engine bay because it is perfectly designed with cutouts for engine mount and transmission oilcooler. Tomorrow I will reinstall the other parts.

Jorg


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Very nice! Just to clarify, you've got it off _without_ moving the engine at all??


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Nice and congrats! 

Damon


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I pulled the engine up about 5 cm. Easy to do when the engine mounts are removed 
Jorg


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

the bufkin pipe coolant leak can be fixed without removing the engine. with the right tools and a car lift and engine lift it is not that hard, but just a lot of work.
Be careful with the bolts and nut, you don't want to break them, in most of the cases it means removal of the engine afterall, for drilling the parts out.
I think it can be done in 12 hours. I used 8 hours more to find the proper ways and because I had to make my own tool to remove one bolt. But I think I got another way that will work better, it is described in the instructions. let me know if that way is correct.

see: the bufkin pipe repair manual for a phaeton on: http://e-w-c.nl/phaeton/bufkin_pipe.pdf

Good luck

Jorg


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## Saeid (May 29, 2013)

Hi Jorg,
Thank you for taking the time to do this. Really appreciated now I will attempt to complete this work on mine.
Saeid


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Thanks Jorg for the great instructions and pics.

Regards,

Salah


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes, thank you Jorg. This will be a benefit to all of us. Well done.

Regards, 
Damon


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## payday (May 13, 2010)

*Engine mount*

What up all,
So I too am doing this dreadful pipe change, currently stuck trying to get the top bolt of the engine mount removed.
I believe it's behind the headers but can't feel or see it. Does anyone have any tips for this or additional pics other than the 2 on the bufkin_pipe.pdf?
Thanks, and on another note that damn top bolt on the engine mount was hard as hell to get off.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I thought I removed it via the top


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

I have been given quotes of about $4,000 to replace this 2" long plastic pipe! The motor had to come out and be dropped onto a special stand while the job is done. Mine was leaking 2 liters a week/200 miles and getting worse.

The repair was accomplished without drama, except now my front bumper cover has a crack in it between the headlight washer and the grill. They say it was cracked when I brought it in.:banghead:


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## payday (May 13, 2010)

The only thing I can try now is to jack the car up some more and see if I can get a little more room from above to get it off (top engine mount bolt that sits under the header in a round narrow angled channel). This crap sucks, been at it off and on for 3 months. 
Please note that this job requires many specialty tools and busted knuckles.

The quote I got was 2200, I would have done it for 1000 to 1500, but 2200 is too much for some stupid $20 plastic pipe.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I remember I made a special tools for this. also it took me 4 hours to remove that bolt. 
To remove the bolt I made the tool and with a long firm piece of flat pipe I could crack the bolt and hold the bolt and turn the engine mount itself.
as in the pdf:
25. Under the hood: remove the heatshield of the engine mount
26. Remove the bolt of the engine mount, when loose enough you can turn the engine mount to unscrew the
bolt. This was the most difficult part, I didn't have enough room to undo the bolt. so I created my own
tool to undo the bolt. But I think it was better to undo the enginemount support itself first (28) and then
with a loose support turn it a bit to create more room.
27. Remove the engine mount
28. Remove the engine mount support by removing two bolts at the bottom and one bolt at the top. Also
remove the attached cables. Remove the supportblock by sliding it down.









it is small enough to fit inside the small area and with a small but large pipe you can wrench the bolt lose with some luck an lot of wd40.


jorg


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## payday (May 13, 2010)

Crap, my bad Jorg,

I did get that bolt off, and it took me trying 4 different tools but I finally broke it loose with a crowsfoot tool to break it loose.

I'm talking about the top top bolt (yes I wrote top twice on purpose) it's another 8mm hex bolt that is nestled literally behind the header.
the mount has the 2 lower bolts and 1 top bolt to the engine all 3 are 8mm hex, and then the 5/8in one that u used the special tool you created and I used a crows foot socket tool.

Jorg, I really appreciate your help with this, I really wanna get this done, haven't driven my baby in over 3 months.
Thanks again.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

Can you make a picture? Did you remove the exhaust manifolt to clear some room. I thought I had no problem with removing the engine mount support.
Maybe a lack of room?

Jorg


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## bobster1969 (Apr 18, 2015)

Hay guys have read this thread with interest and hope I don't ever need to replace such a small part that can consume so many hours.
may I ask has anyone ever looked at how much the VW engine stand costs?
I know they say its special but I have had several engine stands for several different models and their are plenty engineering companies near me that would fabricate such an item.
Even if it meant borrowing one to take dimensions from wouldn't using a vw stand and dropping the engine be easier as it would allow for maintenance also.
I know dropping an engine can mean more hours but from what I have read here it cant be much worse.
I could be wrong was just wandering thanks bob


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## payday (May 13, 2010)

Jorgsphaeton said:


> Can you make a picture? Did you remove the exhaust manifolt to clear some room. I thought I had no problem with removing the engine mount support.
> Maybe a lack of room?
> 
> Jorg


Jorg, I can take pics of it but I don't think I can upload the pic unless it's pulled from a url.
Don't think I can get the exhaust manifold off without removing the engine mount first because some of the exhaust bolts are blocked by the engine mount.
It does appear to be a lack of room but others have done it, so I think i'll try and get a better angle at jacking up the engine to allow more room or better angle to get at the bolt.
If this makes sense to you.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

payday said:


> Jorg, I can take pics of it but I don't think I can upload the pic unless it's pulled from a url..


pm me, I can host your pictures.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I lifted the engine at the back for about 5 cm, but during removal of parts I dropped it or lifted it the get the most room as needed.

jorg


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## Saeid (May 29, 2013)

*Oil Cooler removal*

You can remove the oil cooler without lifting the engine or removing it.
you need to unscrew the manifold nuts including the 3 attached to the pipe, then wiggle the manifold out of the way (after removing the heat shield) and remove 3 of the manifold bolts from the engine that are above the coolant pipe that goes along the cylinder head
then you can un screw the coolant pipe now unscrew the 2 screws holding that pipe in place and push it out of the way, now you can unscrew the bolts on the oil cooler and remove it and change your pipe and washers.
It is very time consuming but with patience you can do it.
I got mine done a couple months earlier. the key thing is to not to give up.
Remember to change all the washer on the pipes including the ones going to the alternator as you don't want to do any part of this work again 
Saeid


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## der hauptmann (Jul 17, 2006)

Thanks saeid and jorg for your posts. I'm going to give this a go on my phaeton. Not looking forward to it much, though.


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## Michaelmiracle (Nov 21, 2014)

I have mine in an independent shop today. The mechanic says there is a coolant leak near the oil cooler. He asked me if it was worked on already because some of the bolts are loose! I've had it for 2 years and no records came with it. He said it's a big job to repair so it sounds like what you'all have found. Hopefully it's covered under the extended warranty. He seems to think it will be. I'm crossing my fingers and holding my breath.
Michael


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Loose bolts are the calling card of the dealers. Found two on top of the a/c plenum last time it went in. That was shortly after I repaired the stripped bolt on one of the transmission mounts.


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## Michaelmiracle (Nov 21, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> Loose bolts are the calling card of the dealers.
> 
> I hope this shop works out because I've sworn off the dealer. No good experience yet with them. I think it was they who scratched the clear coat on the entire fender, right where someone would lean over to get under the hood. I didn't see it for a while after I had it in to them.
> They also didn't see the coolant in the belly pan coming from this leak.
> ...


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

So, while changing my oil last weekend, I found a significant amount of coolant coming from underneath the oil filter housing..... surgery is scheduled for Saturday. Not sure exactly how we're going to do it yet, I suspect we'll try Saeid's method first since it doesn't involve moving the engine.


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## PhaetonPayton (Jul 8, 2017)

Is this where your car is leaking from?

Found this guy on YouTube with a Phaeton W12, though I'm not sure if this is where the Oil Cooler would be.

Video @ 1:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCs9Z-W06uA&t=1m35s


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

No. Mine's a V8.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Thought I'd make a post on this subject at the halfway point of the job (2 days so far), just in case some other unsuspecting victim is thinking about tackling it.

First thing to say is, don't even think about it unless you're pretty experienced with working on cars. There are three of us, one of whom is a trained mechanic with 25 years of experience, with a good range of tools, and it's been a struggle.
We've been pretty much following Jorg's write-up, thanks a lot Jorg!! I flat out don't believe it's possible to do this job without moving the engine, and also without loosening the engine mounting bracket (which means lifting the engine). Having said that, lifting the engine hasn't been that big a deal, we just unbolted one mount from underneath (you have to take two sway bar bolts out to get at the nut) and just lifted that one side without disconnecting the air line or electrical connection. Whether it'll work when we get it back together remains to be seen!

By far the biggest time burn so far was one of the manifold nuts. They're really soft, with a copper coating to prevent corrosion, and it rounded off before it broke loose. After many failed attempts, the eventual solution was a combination of a Dremel and a cold chisel, and it took three of us around 8 hours in total. Once the nut was off, the (now damaged) stud came out fairly easily (fairly easily is a relative term, it certainly wasn't easy) with the double-nut method. Access to the manifold bolts is horrible, you're working partly blind and partly with a mirror, you can't see the area directly.

Getting the manifold out was tricky. We couldn't get it out the back way without removing the cat which had badly corroded bolts, so we unbolted the coolant pipe on the frame opposite the manifold, lifted the engine as far as we dared, then wiggled it hard. I'm not looking forward to putting it back.

The oil cooler bolt that sits behind the pipe on the top left of the cooler is almost completely obscured by the pipe. There's pretty much no way to reach the other end of the pipe, you can feel it but you can't get to it. We removed the stud above the pipe, then pulled up on it while accessing the bolts. Those 8mm allen bolts have pretty shallow heads, it wouldn't be difficult to round them. For the bolt which sits behind the motor mount bracket, we lifted the engine again, then I wedged in a sawn-off allen key and used a socket on the end of it to turn it. That bolt is shorter, and will only just clear the motor mount bracket, with a lot of wiggling and cursing.

We stopped for the day with the two lower mount bracket bolts to remove, and with the engine supported on a jack stand. The cooler is still on the car, but once the mount bracket is loose or off, it should come out.

I suspect the oil cooler is probably the first peripheral item bolted to the block during assembly. If I come across any other useful snippets while we're putting it back together, I'll post them.

Day 3: Finally got the oil cooler housing out. Having eyeballed the piece of crap plastic pipe, this has to be the most asinine technical design piece I've ever seen. Most of my other complaints about the car are about poor training and service on the part of VW, this pipe is the first thing I've seen on the car that strikes me as just plain stupid. We decided against changing the cooler itself, although if I'd known it was a separate part beforehand I may have ordered one anyway, they're ~$200 and the gasket kit includes the gaskets required to replace it. The part number for anyone who wants to do it at the same time is 077117021Q, and Jim Ellis list it.

We took a first attempt at reinstalling after fitting the new pipe and the new hourglass gasket from the kit, but were stymied by the dowel protrusion adjacent to the ports with the hourglass gasket. The assembly has to go on square, which is extraordinarily difficult in the confined space, and requires the engine mount bracket to be loosened. We're going to try again tonight after filing down the minor damage to the dowel.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Day 4: We're working evenings now, so it's *only* about 3 or 4 hours a day. 

Finally got the cooler housing back in place. There are two metal dowels made of Phaetonium that locate between the cooler housing and the block on opposite sides, they're in the bolt holes and are presumably there for alignment purposes to assist with getting the bolts back in. We didn't realize one of them wasn't properly seated when we started cranking on the bolt, and caused some minor damage to the edge. The steel they're made of is strong, and the tolerances are incredibly tight, we did eventually get it back in shape with the damaged side located in the housing, but we still couldn't get the good end to locate into the block. Eventually we just pulled it out again and installed the housing without it. If you want to try with the dowels, it's probably best to locate them in the block first, that way they don't get damaged when getting the cooler back into position. We also installed the hourglass seal after maneuvering the cooler up into place, and had the new pipe pushed into the block (it takes some force to get it to fully seat).

The engine mount bracket definitely needs to be loose, although it doesn't have to come completely out. We had all three bolts out of it (one is really difficult to get to, but with the wheel well cover off you can reach it directly from the side with a couple of long extensions). This allows the coolant pipe that runs along the block and prevents access to the top bolt (the really, really difficult one) to be pulled free after removing the stud above it. It has a tendency to work its way back into position when you're raising & lowering the engine, but it needs to come outwards again to get the cooler housing back in place.

I bought a new manifold gasket and new stud nuts (plus three new studs). These were all cheap, the nuts are copper-coated Phaetonium, be VERY careful taking them off as the copper coating is deep enough that it allows them to get rounded off easily. They look really nice new, it's a shame they'll (hopefully) never be seen again!

With the engine lifted, the manifold can be maneuvered out the top, which means you don't have to remove the catalytic converter. It's a tight fit, but we got it out and in that way.

We left it last night with the manifold in place but not tightened down, the engine mount & bracket back on, and the engine lowered back onto the mount. We'll likely have to lift the engine again to tighten up the manifold nuts, but that's relatively easy with the lower mount nut still removed (sway bar has to be disconnected, but not removed, to reach it). Other remaining jobs are to reconnect all the pipes, install the heat shield, install the alternator, replace the serpentine belt, refill the coolant, and change the oil.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Day 5: Strange how things seem so much easier once you've done them!:screwy: Last night we torqued the manifold studs (25NM), attached the coolant pipes to the housing (one is flattened to run underneath the manifold, adjacent to the filter), refitted the alternator & belt (to hold the tensioner, turn the bolt then put a small drillbit into the hole in the tensioner bolt), reconnected all the pipes, reattached the engine mount bracket & engine mount bolt (70NM) & nut (40NM), and reattached the sway bar bushing (50NM) (there are a few other bits & pieces like the heat shield, etc). After that, we filled it with coolant, squeezed a few pipes to burp it, then started the engine. I had to use the emergency start procedure (despite having the LH battery on charge), but it fired right up and ran for a couple of minutes with no sign of a problem and no visible leaks. The trunk is stuck open with the lock sticking out, it has a running gear fault, and the ESP light is on, I'm hoping all that will go away once things get cooking tonight after we put the engine covers, wheel well cover and wheel back on and take it for a run. 

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate this job about a 9. Don't even think about tackling it unless you have a good toolkit, are confident about raising and lowering the engine multiple times, are prepared to deal with a stripped manifold stud, and are good at working in confined spaces with a mirror or by feel, etc. I owe my BFF Rick a lifetime's supply of beer, and my brother-in-law Jack several Christmas presents to replace all the tools we broke (the only tool we had to modify was an allen key that we cut).


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

As you know - I haven’t driven the P much the last several months 
Two weeks ago I drove it 1600km on a weekend and was perturbed by a wheel bearing noise that appeared.
But much worse as I was peeking under the car was a pink drip drip under the oil filter an off the oil pan. 

So bufkin pipe here we go! 

Put the P up, pulled the LF wheel bearing and started taking things apart.... the step by step is good, thanks so much 

Now I agree this is a 9/10 (and I’ve never experienced a 10) 
Forget about hard vs not hard steps - THEY ARE ALL HARD...

ANYWAY it is do-able without dropping the engine. If I ever get a real hoist at home, I would seriously consider dropping the engine to do it. The work to make an engine support would be easier than all the pita nuts and bolts. 

Gruvenparts pipe in the mail, o-rings ordered, bearing already here, coolant on standby, I’ll need an oil filter too. 
I would say I’m a solid 8 hours into the job now, but I have the busted bufkin pipe in my hand. 

Next - reassembly “reverse of disassembly” soon as I have parts.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I'd recommend new manifold nuts if you have a dealer nearby. They're cheap, but they're also soft and easily rounded. They're also really nice, shiny and coppery, when new. The aluminium coolant pipe is also really nice, it's almost a shame to think (hope) I'll never see it again!


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> I'd recommend new manifold nuts if you have a dealer nearby. They're cheap, but they're also soft and easily rounded. They're also really nice, shiny and coppery, when new. The aluminium coolant pipe is also really nice, it's almost a shame to think (hope) I'll never see it again!


I’ve been looking at my nuts every day this week... shinyer might be nice


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## evmaddy (Dec 18, 2014)

*Jack Stands & other work*

Anybody get this done on jack stands? I don't have access to a nice lift. Also while I'm in there what else should be done? I'm about ready for timing belt so will likely do that at the same time. Thanks, Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Having been through it, I wouldn't want to do it on jack stands! I do think it's possible, though, just even more painful than doing it on a lift. Most of the time we didn't have the car very high, but it also wasn't as low as it would have been on stands. There's not much to be gained in terms of doing the belt at the same time. The alternator and serpentine belt need to come off, but that's it. You'll have good access to the DRL bulb, but not much to be gained there either. Since you're lifting the engine, you _might_ want to change the mounts, depending on your mileage?

Once you have the cooler out, you have the option to change all the gaskets. I didn't bother, even though I had the gasket set, the cooler itself is pretty securely bolted to the housing. I just changed out the hourglass seal which sits between the housing & the block. Also, get some coolant o-rings, you'll be pulling off plenty of coolant pipes.


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## evmaddy (Dec 18, 2014)

*Heat shield for engine mount?*

So I've finally mustered up the courage to tackle this job.
What a battle!
I've gotten the oil cooler mount off the car and bufkin pipe came out in pieces.
My car has no "shields" over the engine mounts?
The engine mount support does not have a hole for the mounting of a shield as shown in the parts diagram.
Is this normal, anyone else find similar?
Thanks, Jeff


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Not sure which shields you're talking about. If I remember correctly, the engine mounts had a metal dome over them.


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## F4Lphaeton (Sep 3, 2021)

boreal said:


> "Bill, is it possible to do this job without moving the engine or transmission?"
> 
> No way!!! We tried. There is no access to the top bolts of the housing without dropping the engine. The Audi V8 guys talk about a way of loosening motor mount bolts and jacking up engine but it won't work on the Phaeton. Way too tight and not worth even trying. The two Phaeton authorized dealers in my area have only seen one other case and the car ended up being parted out. So sad.
> This winters trip to Cabo is on hold.


Do you think if someone where to cut the exhaust manifold off and removed it do you think it’ll fit work?


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## F4Lphaeton (Sep 3, 2021)

Saeid said:


> *Oil Cooler removal*
> 
> You can remove the oil cooler without lifting the engine or removing it.
> you need to unscrew the manifold nuts including the 3 attached to the pipe, then wiggle the manifold out of the way (after removing the heat shield) and remove 3 of the manifold bolts from the engine that are above the coolant pipe that goes along the cylinder head
> ...


Finally my confidence has been regained…. How did you get the top flange bolts out???


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## F4Lphaeton (Sep 3, 2021)

invisiblewave said:


> Not sure which shields you're talking about. If I remember correctly, the engine mounts had a metal dome over them.


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## Phaeton2 (May 18, 2013)

In the middle of job and I can offer a few tips and also have a few questions. I followed Jorg's instructions. It's one of the toughest jobs, I've done. It starts easy until you get to step 26. Then it seems nearly impossible. You need a good tool kit. I wouldn't attempt without a lift. I've spent about 3 1/2 days on the job so far. I wasted a whole day, trying to get the engine support bar aligned properly. I wasted another half day, buying tools I didn't have (and I thought I had a pretty decent set already).

Tips:
1) If your using a two post lift, you might consider an engine support bar sitting on the fenders. It cost about $70 on Amazon. It didn't include shackles which need to fit tight they don't rotate (to avoid fuel rails). A three leg engine support would be better. The one I bought was a little sketchy due to the chains being at an angle (mount is intended for a transverse engine). It was difficult finding the right angle so the chains didn't touch the fuel rails. The type of lift Jorg used is ideal, but I doubt many people have access to that style of lift. You'll need to raise and lower the vehicle a lot so supporting the engine above is ideal with a two post lift. I'll probably use a 1/2 ton transmission jack to lift the engine because it's not easy to do with the engine support bar with the chains at weird angles.
2) You can skip removing the left wheel and left inner fender in step 21. You can remove the bolt for the engine support bar with a short extension.
3) The alternator coolant pipes are very difficult to remove. I waited until the support bar was removed to give more space. I wrapped an electrical wire around the coolant pipe near the connection and pulled while rocking the pipe to remove it. I found it was nearly impossible to simply pull on the pipe. The wire gives more leverage. There was coolant still in the lines, after draining the coolant. Be careful not to direct coolant into the openings in the alternator.
4) I didn't realize the alternator can't be removed by removing the bolts and pulling it forward. The alternator needs to be pulled down and it has a vise like grip on the oil cooler bracket. I used a crow bar to separate it, by putting the crow bar between the alternator and oil cooler mount, aligned in the center of the alternator. I also put a transmission jack underneath the alternator to keep it from dropping on the floor.
5) Removing the top bolt of the engine mount (step 26) was tough. I tried a claw foot as someone suggested, but it would slip. The bolt is very tight. I ended up buying a long harbor freight ICON wrench set for $90 to get some extra leverage and it was still difficult. There isn't space for a socket, you need a wrench. To grab the wrench, you can reach from the wheel well though the opening under the frame . You may need to loosen the heat shield on the right side of the engine bay for access. I used one hand to pull and a second hand was placed over the bolt to reposition the wrench with each pull. Once it was loose enough, I switch to the shorter ratcheting wrench. (Harbor freight also has icon ratcheting wrenches, but they are even longer and might not fit).
6) I'm replacing my starter with this job. It's hard to get to and I found a reconditioned one for under $200 on eBay. I don't ever want to do this job again. 
7) I didn't have any engine support heat shields to remove as noted in Jorg's instructions.
8) parts list included, see pdf's. I order all of the gaskets and a few spare bolts incase one gets broken or lost. Total price was around $150 for the critical items (excluding alternator, starter, and the bufkin pipe from Jim). Parts.pdf include most parts shown on diagram. Parts Order.pdf is what I ended up buying. Ignore the ski rack.

Questions:
1) I'm on step 27. The exhaust manifold is still on the car. I can't find the top bolt of the engine mount support. Where is it? What did you use to remove it? Do you need to remove the exhaust manifold? I understand there are 3 bolts, two on bottom and one on top. Looks like you need to lift the engine to remove one of them on the bottom (haven't tried).
2) To first exhaust manifold nut at the front to the car on the bottom of the manifold is buried above the oil cooler and coolant pipe. How can this be reached? I'm thinking an offset wrench, but haven't tried. Do other parts need to be removed, like the coolant pipe?
3) Remove the exhaust manifold from the top or rear? Does the downpipe need to be removed to take it though the opening in the rear? I'm thinking taking it from the top would be the easiest. The engine is hung from chains, I can push the engine a 1 to 2 inches side to side to get some extra space.
3) I noticed some people didn't remove the finned radiator from within the oil cooler housing once removed? Any reason not to do this? I bought the gaskets, and it seem like it would be smart to do especially with the effort taken.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, the exhaust manifold has to come off. I don't remember any of the studs being particularly difficult to access, although there may be another coolant pipe that needs to be disconnected (but not removed) to get to them all. Be careful when removing the stud nuts, they're copper and they strip relatively easily (I found out the hard way). Buy a new set of stud nuts, and have a couple of studs handy in case you need them. I also bought the gasket kit for the oil cooler, but by the time I got it off, I'd had enough of ****ing with it and I didn't bother changing them. I don't recall the engine mount top bolt being particularly difficult to remove on mine either. We jacked the engine from underneath (although I think your solution is probably better), and with both engine mount bolts removed we moved the engine up and down to get access to the various bolts. For the manifold removal, the higher the engine is the better iirc. If you're able to move the engine sideways by an inch or two, it should all be a piece of cake! lol.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

You might get some inspiration from John's thread:

(11) My Bufkin Story, with pictures | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum


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## Phaeton2 (May 18, 2013)

Thanks, I'm not sure if Joh's thread was inspirational, lol. It's kind of like watching a train wreck in slow motion and then realizing you have be in the train wreck. Luckily, I've seen it before. I did buy extra of everything so I'm not stuck with a broken bolt or nut. I watched this YouTube video about removing stuck exhaust manifold bolts and it was helpful. I've removed all of the top ones very easily. Haven't started the bottom ones yet. 

Old Mechanic Taught Me This Trick To Removing Rusty Exhaust Manifold Bolts!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Phaeton2 said:


> Thanks, I'm not sure if Joh's thread was inspirational, lol. It's kind of like watching a train wreck in slow motion and then realizing you have be in the train wreck. Luckily, I've seen it before. I did buy extra of everything so I'm not stuck with a broken bolt or nut. I watched this YouTube video about removing stuck exhaust manifold bolts and it was helpful. I've removed all of the top ones very easily. Haven't started the bottom ones yet.
> 
> Old Mechanic Taught Me This Trick To Removing Rusty Exhaust Manifold Bolts!


That's the opposite of what you want though, unless you're changing the studs.


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## Phaeton2 (May 18, 2013)

I’m a little confused by 


invisiblewave said:


> That's the opposite of what you want though, unless you're changing the studs.


I’m a little confused by this statement. FYI, the top nuts were loosened and snugged back up so the bottoms don’t have more pressure on them.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Phaeton2 said:


> I’m a little confused by
> 
> I’m a little confused by this statement. FYI, the top nuts were loosened and snugged back up so the bottoms don’t have more pressure on them.


The goal, at least mine, was to remove the nuts and leave the studs in place. I did have to replace a couple of studs. The video is showing how to remove studs that are rusted into the block.


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