# recommended oil vs other oils



## Kylekosir (Mar 19, 2007)

Don't know if I should put this is the motorsport thread or not. But I really want to learn about motor oil in detail. 
Why do manufactures like VW BMW, and so on recommend castrol or shell or whatever they have. Is it bad to put in different brand of Oil then they tell you to? 
The reason why I am asking is because I started my own racing team and are looking for a good Oil company. 
So please explain this. 
THanks 
Kyle


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

There are many reasons why car companies recommend a particular brand of oil. What's more important than the brand of oil is using an oil the meets the car makers warranty requirements for your engine. Any oil of the proper viscosity that has been tested by the car maker and approved for your engine family is likely to serve you well for street and in many race applications. If you're having professional race engines built then your engine builder will tell you what oil you must run for them to stand behind their engine build. 

Other than conducting very expensive time consuming oil sequence tests like the ACEA A3/B4 or VW 505.01/502 type oil tests, you won't be able to make any informed, objective, performance evaluation of engine oils. 

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20090105_081211_ACEA_Oil_Sequences_Final.pdf


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Techmister is infamous for spewing his own brand of tortured logic here. Best is to skim over his ramblings and move on. Most of the posters here have little or no experience or knowledge on the subject. You might want to search out some of Saaber's posts, etc... 

I just finished up on a similar thread, and it's exhausting to keep posting info for people with limited capacity to understand and assimilate information. Here is the thread for you, take note of some of the lab work from Saaber with his Redline. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5101471-think-i-ll-stick-to-man-recommended-oils. 


In a serious race app, that's the oil you want. It far exceeds the 14 year old VW 502 standard in so many ways that these other posters do not even comprehend. Let's just say the dibasic ester base offers a better +150C HT/HS high temp /high shear visc rating than it's labeled +100c viscosity. 

Tribology is a complex subject. Many people just want to know brands, so other than Redline, Valvoline make the VR1 Racing oils and a Synthetic Racing oil that AutoZone carrys. AMSoil has a racing line too, afaik. Don't bother with Royal Purple or any other similar products. iirc, APR is using Redline now. Also, the Mobil 1 High Miles line is built like a race oil. Very good stuff. Don't think too that extra visc is always needed, it is not. Thinner oils now protect better than thicker oils. When a thick oil is needed, 15w-40 is the ticket unless you need a synth. Look too for the new Shell Rotella 10w-30 Semi Synth, a thick 30 weight...something you should learn about. 

You can try over at Bob's for some quality advice and interaction, they have a specific forum for race oils.... 


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=36&page=1 

More info on the regular PCMO forum though. 

Euro Spec Comparator... 

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html 

You need to learn the relationship between visc and temp... 

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html 










Let me know if you have any questions...


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*more rubbish, complete with a black stone report of course.*



AudiJunkie said:


> Techmister is infamous for spewing his own brand of tortured logic here. Best is to skim over his ramblings and move on. Most of the posters here have little or no experience or knowledge on the subject. You might want to search out some of Saaber's posts, etc...
> 
> I just finished up on a similar thread, and it's exhausting to keep posting info for people with limited capacity to understand and assimilate information. Here is the thread for you, take note of some of the lab work from Saaber with his Redline.
> 
> ...


 audijunkie is a a self proclaimed expert, anyone else's opinion is not worth the time in his eyes. consider what you take seriously.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

So you have nothing relevant to the subject? What a shock!  

This forum is a disgrace. :facepalm:


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## Kylekosir (Mar 19, 2007)

I wasn't trying to cause an argument, I just wanted some basic knowledge. Sending emails to different companies about engine specs, they send the ones that they recommend. So I am see what would the best oil to get.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

:laugh::laugh: read the thread below yours....you showed up at _just_ the right time


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Choosing oils by their published physical properties is folly. 

You can read and compare Product Data Sheets all day, but it'll give little insight as to how an oil will perform in-service. Oils with the lowest this or highest that does not translate to lowest wear or best TBN retention. For instance, Chevron Supreme is an excellent preformer, but looks weak in this AMSoil comparo... 











It even has the high moly that is great for competition oils. ZDDP is another additive that the race oils or botique oils you enquire about will feature in their literature, but is now fully antiquated in the newest Euro formulations (VW 504, BMW LL04). 

Whatever oil companies you contact will all claim unique this that. Royal Purple has some of the most absurd claims, marketing an oil for $8/q that actually performs like any $2 dino oil. If you want to delve into all that madness, I suggest looking into some Lucas, as poor of a product you can find on the market, but they have great marketing. 

Seriously, Redline and Valvoline have the best products for your interest, like I mentioned, and they have great websites you should read. Check out the HyperZDDP Valvoline uses, just to give you a nudge in the right direction. 

Here's a recent Blackstone paper on ZDDP. 

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/News..._Diesel_Newsletter11_22_2010&utm_medium=email


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## 08Rabbit1 (Jun 30, 2008)

Auto manufacturers don't recommend a particular brand of oil. They approve multiple brands of oil. When you see a recommendation of a specific brand of oil it is by a distributing subsidiary of that manufacturer - for example, VW North America or Mercedes Benz North America. That recommedation is the result of a marketing and distribution agreement between those two companies. In other words they are being paid to say something - a classic example of a loss of independence and objectivity. Pay no attention to it. Work from the factory's list of approved oils and you will be fine.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

All the latest Werkstadt oils are 5w-30.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*you buy into amsoil infomercials?*



AudiJunkie said:


> Choosing oils by their published physical properties is folly.
> 
> You can read and compare Product Data Sheets all day, but it'll give little insight as to how an oil will perform in-service. Oils with the lowest this or highest that does not translate to lowest wear or best TBN retention. For instance, Chevron Supreme is an excellent preformer, but looks weak in this AMSoil comparo...
> 
> ...


 more rubish


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*amsoil*

aren't they the same oufit that advertised that if you used their oil you'd never have to change your oil again?


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

No, that chart is based on the formulator's published specs, ASTM D-5800 and ASTM D-97. 

I guess that escaped your diligent fact-checking. lol. 

Likely just a persistent failure to correctly interpret the charts. 

Standing too close to the x-ray machine can cause brain damage.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*sorry*

i read amsoil, guess you, as well as they, take things at face value.


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## slowbluVW (Oct 15, 2002)

The only VW oil specs I would personally follow are the ones in effect for the newer diesel engines and the newer direct injected gas engines. All other VW gas burning or older non PD diesel engines can use any quality synthetic SM oil (or diesel oil for a diesel) changed out at reasonable intervals. I personally don't care for VW's "blanket" 10K mile OCI either.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Thankfully VW actually tests oils and certifies the ones that meet the engine's lubrication requirements. I'd skip any oil that has not been tested by VW and confirmed to deliver the correct lubrication properties.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

VW doesn't test oils that aren't submitted with a fat check. 

How do you know that other oils don't do as well or better than 502? 

Plenty of examples posted, the BioSyn graph, failed cam followers, lots of great UOAs on Rotella 5w-40, Edge and PennzoilPlatinum 5w-30, a long track record at AMSoil and Redline. 

You still have failed to explain how these other oils do so well, and have identical properties of VW 502 spec oils AND EXCEED THE PUBLISHED VW 502 spec...they do it all w/o a "approval". 

Can you explain how you know these oils will NOT work well? NO, only that you believe the VW 502 oil's certification guarantees performance, while that is entire debatable.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*it's all debateable*



AudiJunkie said:


> VW doesn't test oils that aren't submitted with a fat check.
> 
> How do you know that other oils don't do as well or better than 502?
> 
> ...


 but if you have a warranty you want to be on the right side of the discussion. what you read here may or may not have any merit and certainly won't satisfy your warranty. if vw feels an oil is of sufficient quality for the warranty it should be good afterwards. not to say there aren't other good products.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Fine, but a counterpoint might be in the form of a question. That is, do you want to torture your engine while under warranty by following VW's prescribed services, for it to arrive at old age in a sub-optimal condition? Do you think it's ideal to follow 10k intervals w/the quite antiquated Syntec 5w-40 VW 502? I don't. 

I think a better bet is to do the best service you KNOW of, handle any warranty complications as they arise (which they won't, I get my 10k dealer services) and after 50k passes, you have the best possible engine condition, going forward. 

Call me crazy.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*whatever*

:screwy:


AudiJunkie said:


> Fine, but a counterpoint might be in the form of a question. That is, do you want to torture your engine while under warranty by following VW's prescribed services, for it to arrive at old age in a sub-optimal condition? Do you think it's ideal to follow 10k intervals w/the quite antiquated Syntec 5w-40 VW 502? I don't.
> 
> I think a better bet is to do the best service you KNOW of, handle any warranty complications as they arise (which they won't, I get my 10k dealer services) and after 50k passes, you have the best possible engine condition, going forward.
> 
> Call me crazy.


 vw says do not exceed 10k miles, there is a disclaimer in the owners manual that tells you to change your oil more frequently under various conditions that have been listed numerous times before. personally i change between 4-5k, when the oil gets down about i/4 quart. that's all the oil i use between ch


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*by the way*

i had an 02 jetta 1.8t with 160k and have an 03 passat 1.8t w/ 127k and 06 2.0 jetta w/75k. the only problem on the engine with any of them is coils. the hpfp lifter on my a cam bpy was fine even though i changed it out because it was apart. all on 502 oils, until recently m1 0w-40 but now use total or fuchs when i can get it. all on 4-5k oil change regimin.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

This is an interesting thread. I know nothing about the importance, nor differences of engine oil besides what VW recommendeds. AUDIJUNKIE or someone else knowledgable, can you point me to some sites that talk about the basics of what motor oil is comprised of and maybe ill be able to understand what you all are refering to now?


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

BOODAH I tried to send you a pm, but your inbox is full.


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