# Volkswagen Phaeton V10 5.0 TDi



## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey All

I've been looking at buying a Volkswagen Phaeton V10 5.0 TDi as I'm going to commute around 230km from Sweden to Denmark every day. Originally I considered a MB CLS but when I saw that the depreciation on the Phaeton made it possible for me to buy my dream car, I changed my mind. It also seems like the perfect car for commuting.

However I haven't really found any info on the V10 5.0 TDi on this forum (probably because it wasn't sold in the US) so I wonder if anyone has any pros and cons on this specific model? The W12 is also nice but eats fuel like crazy.


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

hi,

have mine for a week now, v10 2006 47tkm lwb, all is fine except for the acc.
great car, good economy with moderate right foot.
merc with snow is not nice, phat v10 is 4motion.
price/quality and luxury unbeatable at the moment.
get an extended warranty with everything. 

pre buying tip:
check the faq here!

at least : 
get the vin and go to your local vw garage and have them check the vehicle's history.
nice thing about second hand is that all kinds of possible tiny things have been done! and as long it hasn't been on the "richtbank"



rgds
aart


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Aart.

What is your average fuel consumption so far? Of course if you are driving in mountains it might be a bit different environment than I plan on driving mine in. 

Are there any different "vintages" that are better than others? Ofcourse the newer the better but maybe cars from certain years are more prone to have problems than others.

Best regards

Christopher


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

hi christopher,

so far 11.5l/100km, but as mentioned only have the car for one week now! donot forget eur3

vintage....first we are in a lucky time, you can pick and choose! 
for me the phaeton was the most "bang for the buck"?

took the newest i wanted to afford, at least a model pflege model

personal prio list for me:
no structural damage
year, as new as possible
km, as low as possible
engine as big as possible, minimum v8
no black interiour
options, take all you can get
max. one previous owner
trustworthy dealer


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Seems like we have the same priorities.

However it would be nice to get some more input on the engine from someone who has used it over a longer period (no offence intended Aart).

I've been looking at an '05-model, but just wanted to make sure that they didn't have any major flaws that was corrected in the '06-model.


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

we went to a wedding today in baden, around 90km back and fourth. 

now i have driven a lot of german top brands: mercedes S500/S600, audi A8/S8, bmw 740D/750i and porsche C4/Turbo. some years ago when i still freelanced in germany you could rent these top liners for a month for not too much money, so then i have really "driven" these cars as the autobahn was not as jammed with trucks as nowadays. frankfurt to and fro amsterdam was the track.

but in my book the phaeton, with this V10, is one perfect autobahn car, it is a bit heavier, but the quality comes through in every aspect, and the engine, should have done this years ago. hope this 
good vibe continues for a long time.

Regards
Aart


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Sounds nice and thank you for the input.

Seems like the Phaeton is going to be my first car as I'm only going to buy it because I'm planning on moving to Sweden. There's a whole lot lower tax on cars than in Denmark, but not bad for a beginners car 

Best regards

Christopher

P.S. Used to study in Frankfurt. Strange but nice city.


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi Christopher,

you commute over this new bridge to denmark then? you'll have to sent us a video when driving yor phaeton in the sunlight over that bridge!

frankfurt is still a bit off, certainly after all the ami gi's went home.

Regards
Aart


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Christopher, 

I have had my V10 now since last November. I have a 2006 model with most of the extras possible. I have done about 35k KM since then. 

Fuel economy is as reported above, around 11.5/100 which I think is fine, better than the MB I also have. 

PROS

Great drive, smooth acceleration, noiseless except for the nice growling and snarling if you punch it.
Comfortable at all speeds. 
Great adjustable seats, comfortable etc. 
Good brakes, great looking understated car (Well we all know that)
I like the keyless access. 
Good sound quality with the rear seat entertainment. 
The V10 delivers great power and fun driving without a major trade off on fuel economy. 

CONS

The radio reception is a real pain. Not what you'd expect from this kind of car. 
Seat ventilation not as good as MB cars (S Class, for example, much better). 
Annoying "Phaeton Personality" glitches - boot won't open, interior lights remain off, then seems to fix itseld. 
Expensive services (Just did the 120k service and it was 990 Euros), more than I expected, but hey.
Extremely poor, difficult to work DVD system in the back. 
Crappy phone - I mean really crappy. Can take five minutes to be available. 

Hope that helps. 

Iain


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks for the info guys. Appreciate it.

Yes I'll be crossing the bridge daily which is going to be a nice start to each day. There's a really nice view when you reach the top.


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## Golodkin (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Christopher,

If you understand a little German, you could learn a lot from the Phaeton-section on Motortalk.de
( http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/vw-phaeton-b224.html )
Their FAQ about the V10 TDI: 

Vorteile:
grandiose Leistung (750 Nm)
fantastische Beschleunigungswerte
auch bei über 200 Km/h noch geringe Drehzahlen
schnelles Überholen in jedem Geschwindigkeitsbereich möglich
Verbrauch nur ca. 1-2 Liter über dem des V6 TDI ! (eigene Erfahrung)
Motorsound klingt auch nach 750 Nm

Nachteile:
kein Common Rail (nur Pumpe-Düse)
Produktion 2006 eingestellt
Reparaturanfällig (Turbolader, Motor-Getriebe aufgrund der enormen 750 Nm)
kein Partikelfilter (nur gelbe Plakette)
schlechte Steuereinstufung
deutliche Gewichtsbelastung des Vorderwagens
schnellerer Bremsenverschleiß

Fazit: sehr agiler Motor der ein sportliches Fahren ermöglicht, aber auch höhere Kosten verursacht

Since 1,5 year, I’ve got a ‘06 V6 TDI with during 160.000 km only 1 minor repair.
The only reason I bought my V6 instead of a V10 was because of the 2700 €/year road tax in Belgium. 

Nevertheless, being an active reader/writer on that forum, I think I can give you some advice:

-	The Model Year (MY) is important. From MY 2005 on, most of the child diseases were solved. To check the MY (MY 2005 production started july 2004, but a vehicle sold in 2005 could still be a MY 2004), look at the VIN-code at the bottom of the windscreen: the 10th digit is the MY (WWWZZZ3DZ*X*---------)
-	The main problems with the V10 are the turbochargers on the pre-MY 2005 models. Volkswagen had to change most of the 2003-2004 turbos under warranty. If you’d still want to buy a 2003-2004, when checking the cars history, make sure that the turbos and their control unit have already been changed, or are covered by your warranty. 
-	Other weak spots are the brakes, which tend to worn out very fast in “German driving conditions”, which is: driving constantly at 200+ on the Autobahn, braking heavily to 100 whenever some Captain Slow gets in your way.
-	Also check the trunk lit opening mechanism (see : http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2494209 and http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1872713 )and the lower door trim strips (see: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3203005#post39233797 )
-	Furthermore the V10 is as reliable as any German luxury car. 
-	Get the 18-way seats. They’re a must-have on a Phaeton. The 12-way seats are to short.
-	If you’re taller than 1.90m, avoid the sunroof
-	If you’re parking often in an underground parking, avoid the long version, entering/leaving could get tricky (which it already is with the short version)
-	Buy it in Germany. Prices are getting lower and lower due to their new environment-legislation: the V10, as a euro-3 without particulate filter, only gets a yellow sticker, which means it isn’t allowed to penetrate in the centre of the cities any more. See: www.mobile.de


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi Golodkin

Thank you for the very useful answers. I have actually been looking at the German web-sites and was wondering why the prices were that low. I thought I was making a mistake in my calculations when removing German and adding Swedish tax.

Have also considered the V6 but many people write that it need that extra power. However fuel consumption, insurrance and environmental taxes might make me change my mind on the V6. Sounds like you love it.

My only problem with getting a car from Germany is all hassle of getting it imported at the same time as I have to take of a lot of things in connection with moving to another country, but we'll see.

Best regards

Christopher


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

Golodkin said:


> ................ due to their new environment-legislation: the V10, as a euro-3 without particulate filter, only gets a yellow sticker, which means it isn’t allowed to penetrate in the centre of the cities any more.


Rik,

Does the same thing apply to the V6 Tdi 3.0? Is there somewhere where you can look this up? Do you know if the legislation the same for visitor cars from other countries? Sorry to fire questions but this is all new to me and I am off to Germany shortly, staying in city centres.

PETER M


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Peter - I have no authoritative referencee, but I think the V6 TDI is much cleaner than the V10 - and I don't think there's any problem with emissions anywhere in Europe.... but I would hope that one of the erudite forum members could confirm this.
Regards
M


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

> but I think the V6 TDI is much cleaner than the V10 - and I don't think there's any problem with emissions anywhere in Europe....


The V6 TDI in Phaeton is only available with the particulate filter (DPF). This "BMK" engine is an "EURO 4" engine whereas the V10 TDI conforms to EURO 3. Main difference is that the V10 TDI lacks the DPF.

Rumor says that VW did not take the trouble of fitting the DPF into the Phaeton V10 - it would have required some component changes to gain enough room for the installation of DPF, so I've heard. They did put the DPF into V10 Touaregs, and they do meet the EURO 4. 

Germany is quite special with those "environmental zones". In most of Europe, there are no such restrictions/requirements on who can drive where. Here in Finland, for example, you do have to pay a purchase plus yearly vehicle tax which is based on the CO2 emissions, but EURO classifications have little or no importance here.

As the V6 TDI meets the EURO 4 and can be driven to the "green zones" they seem to keep their value much better in Germany. Another "nice" thing is that they are absolutely smoke-free: no matter how hard you floor it, you never see a puff of that diesel smoke.

Yet the EURO 4 is already outdated: new cars meet the EURO 5. Futher info on the norms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

EDIT: Had to recheck that the V6 TDI is in fact always with DPF. According to VW's materials it is. Here is the technical data for both V6 and V10 TDI's:

Code BMK
Manufactured 10.04 ►
Emissions fulfil EU4 standard
Displacement	ltr. 3,0
Output	kW at rpm 165/4000
Torque	Nm at rpm 450/1400 … 3250
Bore	Ø in mm 83.0
Stroke	mm 91.4
Compression 17.5
Fuel	according to DIN EN 590
Firing order 3–6–1–4–2–5
Exhaust gas recirculation	yes
Turbocharging/supercharging	yes
Catalytic converter yes
Particulate filter yes
Charge air cooling yes
Lambda control yes


Engine code AJS
Manufactured 01.03 ►
Emissions fulfil EU3 standard
Capacity	l 4.9
Output	kW at rpm 230/4000
Torque	Nm at rpm 750/2000
Bore	Ø mm 81.0
Stroke	mm 95.5
Valves per cylinder 2
Compression ratio 18.5
CN	min. 51
Firing order 1-6-5-10-2-7-3-8-4-9
Catalytic converter yes
Exhaust gas recirculation	yes
Turbocharging/supercharging	yes
Charge air cooler yes

The BMK was replaced with a newer CARA engine in May 2007. It has more power (175kw/500Nm) and lower compression (16.4) but otherwise the specs are pretty much the same. Still EURO 4.

Jouko


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

Rik,

Thank you for that very useful information.

PETER M


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## Golodkin (Jun 11, 2009)

jkuisma's information is correct. I can only add that this same V6 TDI 176 kW/500 Nm engine now meets Euro 5 in the new 2010 GP3's , and that it's average consumption went down from 9 L/100km to 8,5.

@ Christoffer DK: I am indeed very happy with my 165 kW/450 Nm V6 TDI: once you're off, it sounds like a big petrol V6, and thanks to the 450 Nm, its performances are more than sufficient for my mostly Belgian, Dutch and French driving conditions. I think it's the same for Denmark/Sweden. I'd only really whish myself a V10 if I'd be living & driving in Germany.
Don't bother bying one in Germany: the EU-commission made im/exporting a second hand car within the EU much easier recently.

@ Peter Mills: for information about these "Umweltzonen", see : http://www.bmu.de/english/air_pollution_control/general_information/doc/40740.php


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks for the link about the German umweltzones, Golodkin! I now stand corrected as the information clearly says that the German umweltzones rules DO APPLY for foreign vehicles as well! Hmmmpppph, this is pretty nasty as you need to purchase a sticker even for a tourist car. Getting hold of a sticker seems to be - well - very German. You need to queue up at a registration office and present your car's documents to an official... Not something I'd be happy to do next time I'll be just "passing by" one of these cities in Germany. 

Jouko


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## Golodkin (Jun 11, 2009)

There's a no need to queue, you can order your sticker online at : http://www.dekra.de/umweltzone


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

just did 860 km with one tank of diesel (...no not including the reserve 10l) on the german 
autobahn with 2 people and the car filled with stuff 

the best i have everdone with any! v8 mercedes was 560km


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Sounds nice with the mileage on the V10.

Although it sounds like the V6 is a good choice as well my heart still tells me to get the V10. Besides the extra POWER I also find that it is more common to find individualised V10's as well as more equipment. Most V6's seems to be equipped with light wood trim and I really want one with the black piano trim as well as a light cabin.

I know that it is the boy within me speaking but I really wish that the diesels came with the more sexy exhausts found on the V8 an W12. A part of the Phaetons charm is the understated look but I still love this little twist. However I can't really justify getting petrol driven car when you hold performance and mileage up against each other. Buying a V8 instead of a v10 would be stupid and although the W12 is awesome I already have one very costly guilty pleasure and that is my girlfriend 

Changed my mind about buying a German model though. I found out that it is actually pretty easy and both a lot cheaper and a lot more different equipment options than on the Swedish market.

Must admit though that I have been flirting a bit with the BMW 7-series but I just hate that big ass of a trunk.

Chris

P.S. Was riding my bike behind an unidentified diesel Phaeton the other day and I'm sure it didn't have a particle filter. Quite a lot of smoke and not very nice riding behind.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

> P.S. Was riding my bike behind an unidentified diesel Phaeton the other day and I'm sure it didn't have a particle filter. Quite a lot of smoke and not very nice riding behind.


That was probably a V10 - all V6 diesel Phaetons have DPFs.

Harry


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## Cerdin (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Christopher,

I have a 04 V10, short wheelbase that I've been driving for 18 months now. No regrets in buying this amazing car, but there are a few things that I can pass on that may be helpful.

I would advise you find a good service centre, where they understand the Phaeton and have actually worked on them (successfully) before - good servicing can be difficult to find. When I took my car in for (my) first service the VW service centre provided me with a detailed history - I discovered that the turbos had already been replaced (job done!).

Fuel consumption on my Phaeton is better than my previous car (BMW 520 touring), it does 18 mpg in town an around 30 mpg on the freeway/motorway. It managed 40mpg on a 150 mile run through scotland recently, but there may have been some significant descent involved in that achievement

Insurance can be a significant cost (my SWB was incorrectly logged as a LWB on the UK DVLA database, which could potentially have cost significantly more in premiums).

My parking sensors have not functioned since purchase, but I have decided not to invest in the cost of investigation/repair, preferring to use my own senses. No major problem with this so far.

My (analogue) TV no longer functions in the UK, where digital is now the standard. An upgrade could be very costly, in reality I didn't really use the TV function anyway.

The 18-way seats are amazing, and help to make long drives less tiring. I accidentally left a window open during a rainstorm one evening, water sprayed on the seat control centre, causing a lot of random seat movements, but drying it out thoroughly with a hairdrier fixed the problem, with no lasting problem. Seat warmer is wonderful

Opening the trunk caused me some problems until I realised that the button should be depressed for more than 1 second - hey presto, no more problem! If you accidentally touch the button while the trunk is opening it freezes, then you have to push the lid up (manually) to the top of its reach before it can be closed using the button.

I hope this helps


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## happygrill (Sep 26, 2010)

*VW Phaeton V10 TDi 5.0*

Hi Christopher

I'm very happy with my Phaeton (year 2005 Oct, but 2006 model), i'm living in Bulgaria, but are from Denmark 

Just for your info last time we took the trip Varna-Copenhagen (2750km) it used by info computer 9,8L/100Km fully loaded 

I have chip-tunned my Phaeton to about 365 horsepower and 850Nm...and the car drives superb....it reacts much better on the gas than before......

And due to the extra power I service the car at about 10.000km use with new oil and filters...even with VW LL oil on it.

I also serviced the gearbox at 60.000km (6 liter used), and flushed it here at 125.000km with full change about 11 liter put on again...and of course only with org. VW V10 transfluid (price per liter €18 direct order from ebay VW shop in Germany), if you buy from VW repair workshop it will be about €30 per liter !

And the car drives and shift gears like its still new......

That was my little information about VW Phaeton...

Ciao
Frank


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## R4DEK1 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Christopher

I think if You travel a lot, V10 is a good idea. Trust me that overtaking with 750Nm of torque is ver easy and enjoyable. And of course V10's sound will be the best music for Your ears...

RADEK


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks for all of the soud advice. I still haven't moved to Sweden yet, and therefore haven't bought the car, but I am beginning to be pretty sure that the V10 is going to be the car I choose. Other cars I have considered are BMW 7-series (the old model is simply to ugly and common), Masserati Quatroporte (can be bought at a nice price but repairs and fueleconomy will make it very expensive as a daily driver) and Lotus Elise (a fun car with good mileage but not very practical when you often have to move things between two countries). 

I would like to take a test drive of a V10 here in Denmark just to get a feeling of it in case I might not like it (highly unlikely  ) however there aren't really that many dealers who have them for sale.

My main source for finding a car is www.mobile.de as I plan to import a German car to Sweden but I have a few questions about the cars. Many of them seem to have the same mileage, equipment and been serviced reguarly at a VW-dealer but there is quite a big difference in the price. I know that every car has its own history but do you guys think it is because the cheaper cars have been damaged previously or because the more expensive cars already have had their turbo and gearbox replaced? I am looking at cars with less than 70.000 km on the clock from 2005-2006 but should I go specifically after the ones who have already had the major replacements?
Does anyone have knowledge of a VW repair shop near Malmø that has experince with the Patheon and does anyone know if it is possible to get an extended warranty on a German car in Sweden?

Best regards

Christopher


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## gartracescort (Apr 4, 2010)

My previous car was a Merc S500 (W140). Gorgeous car, but woefully unreliable and 15.7 litre/100km/.

The Phaeton is a more complete car and *so* much faster and with the economy mentioned above. Better stereo is the icing on the cake. The anonymity is a real bonus to me too.

It doesn't yell "look at me, I'm a fat plutocrat" like the Merc, but then again, people do let you out of side streets.

Very heavy nose, so keep your front tyres above 3.4473786399999997bar, or you'll get through a few.

If the Merc had the performance, economy and reliability, then it'd be a tough question. They don't, so it's not!

No regrets.


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## Golodkin (Jun 11, 2009)

Christopher DK said:


> My main source for finding a car is www.mobile.de as I plan to import a German car to Sweden but I have a few questions about the cars. Many of them seem to have the same mileage, equipment and been serviced reguarly at a VW-dealer but there is quite a big difference in the price. I know that every car has its own history but do you guys think it is because the cheaper cars have been damaged previously or because the more expensive cars already have had their turbo and gearbox replaced?


I think the major reason is the rarity of the car: sellers often don't have a clue what to ask. When I purchased my V6 TDI, 2006-cars priced between 28 and 44 KEUR. I bought a 28 KEUR in better condition than many higher priced ones. 
Just look out, and once you've seen a lot of them, act fast when a good bargain passes by: I saw/tested mine saturday afternoon, and ordered it monday morning. Confirming this by fax, fortunatly, because by noon, 2 other guys already bid 1000 € more!


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*Swedish Phaeton Club*

Why don't you go to http://phaetonsweden.org and register for a membership? That way you can get in touch with several Phaeton owners in the Malmö area.


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

perfrej said:


> Why don't you go to http://phaetonsweden.org and register for a membership? That way you can get in touch with several Phaeton owners in the Malmö area.


Hadn't found the Swedish club. Thanks a lot for the link.


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

I originally thought that both the v10 and w12 were turbo charged but now I learned that it is only the v10. 
Does anyone have experience with the maintainance costs of both engines? I should think that the turbo charged v10is more prone to braking down and need the turbos replaced but then again the 450hp of the w12 might cause more wear and tear to the car.
If the v10 is more expensive in maintainance I might justify purchasing the w12 even though expences for gas and insurance is higher. It is no secret that the w12 is the car I really want but that I have been focused on the v10 as it seems like a more sensible choice.


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*Bentley...*

In the Bentley, the W12 has twin turbos and cranks out I don't know how many horse power...

I think the V10 is an interesting proposal as well as the W12.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

The Phaeton's naturally aspirated W12 produces 420PS (2002-2005) or 450PS (2005-present). The base twin-turbo W12 in the Bentley produces 550PS but the "Speed" model produces 600PS and the Supersports produces 630PS. 

Harry


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## gartracescort (Apr 4, 2010)

552 bhp standard.

My brother works at Bentley; they wanted to launch the GT Continental with the V10, but purists wouldn't have diesel. They had a Phaeton mule and fitted Bentley components such as brakes & suspension to it and apparently it was fabulous. A lot of the running gear is beefed up on the Bentley due to the higher speed, performance and weight.

I could quite see myself in a Flying spur or something...one day!


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## R4DEK1 (Nov 6, 2010)

The main difference beetwen V10 and W12 (beside power) is the fact that V10 engine is much heavier and it is said that it affect worse driving. I don't know if it is true because I haven't ever driven W12.


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## Christopher DK (Aug 19, 2010)

Any good adwises on purchase of a V10 vs W12?

I have seen that you can get a good 05-06 V10 with 100.000 km on the clock for around EUR 20k and an 03-04 W12 with 150.000 km on the clock for around EUR 13k.

Would it be a bad idea to go for a W12? It seems like it is more reliable than the v10 but will the fact that it is an 03-04 model be a problem with reliability plus the extra 50.000 km?

I know that the W12 consumes a lot of fuel and that insurance is higher but with a difference in price of EUR 7.000 you can buy a lot of fuel 

Has anyone driven both models and can say which one they find better?


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