# Race Dasher 2.0t MSIIe Maps



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

I'm still a week out before the car will be ready to run
2.0L Audi 3A (same block as a 9A 16v 2.0)
BBM Head Spacer, R/C around 9:1
8v Late GTI head (rebuilt)
Autotech 270 Cam (ya, not the best choice for turbo... but its a start)
Garret T3 wastegated at 7psi (still trying to get exact confirmation, I have heard as high as 11)
Boost control planned for future (I just need to get the car running)
I've been looking at several different (and very different) sources... and I expect to have to tune, I just need somethign that will get the car 5 miles home from the shop. though, it would be nice if it was gonna run great out of the gate








engine constants








ignition settings








Air Fuel Ratio








VE Table








Spark Table









_Modified by Southcross at 12:24 AM 6-12-2008_
Edit.... links for reference:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=7


_Modified by Southcross at 12:09 PM 6-12-2008_


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## Shawn B (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: Race Dasher 2.0t MSIIe Maps (Southcross)*

Do a search for valvecovergasket's old 16V turbo thread and use EVERYTHING he's got posted. I did and only needed to tweak the timing coming out of boost and added my required fuel. I've done some fuel tuning but haven't had a chance to test it.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Race Dasher 2.0t MSIIe Maps (Shawn B)*

VE table looks rich but other then that all seems fine.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

I used a couple of sources, but ValveCoverGasket's tables heavily influenced it








I expected the VE to be rich and actually, I'll probably just re-scale the Kpa up. That is actually the MS2 calculated VE... errr wait, I guess it needs redone from scratch, I forget that I forgot to doublecheck my ReqFuel before running the MegaTune calculator... boo... oh well, takes only a few minutes


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Race Dasher 2.0t MSIIe Maps (need_a_VR6)*

that spark table looks pretty conservative at full boost also, but at least itll get you started








i think the spark table posted in my thread was also rather on the conservative side


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

re-done using the "corrected" ReqFuel... I'm sure its still rich, very rich... LOL
I scaled the kpa all the way up to 245, and once I know what the engine is doing and what my boost control mods will do... I'll delete off the top and scale it back


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

ok... I looked at it some more... scaled it back 15%.. have both saved, and now that I've figured out how to change all the cells at once, I can do it anytime (sure beats changing a cell at a time) and just reexport the table to experiment with


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## Fox-N-It (Jul 23, 2003)

Any pics of the dasher by chance?


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (Fox-N-It)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fox-N-It* »_Any pics of the dasher by chance?
sadly all my "whole car" photos are on my webserver which is awaiting a new power supply. I don't have anything more than a few "close ups" on my photobucket account.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

I would have take 40% out of that first one. Very rarely will you see numbers above 100% at 'normal' afr's even in light boost.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

hmmm.... well I now have tables now in both 70% and 60%


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I would have take 40% out of that first one. Very rarely will you see numbers above 100% at 'normal' afr's even in light boost.
not sure if you know or not, but there is a "trick" that I learned from the MS forums allows you to increase your VE for better resolution on making changes. Your VE is directly inverse proportional to your ReqFuel. So if your VE is 50 a change of 1 is 2%, but a change of 1 to 100 is only a 1% change. To get double the resolution you just half your ReqFuel. Or VEx1.5 & ReqFuel/1.5, or so on an so forth... works as long as your VE never goes over 255.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

I know, I haven't needed to use that 'feature' though. 
Also, you have a TON of bins above 100kpa and normally I only run 3 even on cars with a 400kpa map sensor. There's no real need for that resolution up there. Keep it down low where it'll drive the most 30-70kpa and from idle to 4500.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_









I've been thinking about the VE scaling... you had a ReqFuel of only 6.8 compared to my 10... I wonder what kind of difference that will make between our VE numbers. Mine was calculated using the MegaTune 2.25p1 MS2e built in calculator.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I know, I haven't needed to use that 'feature' though. 
Also, you have a TON of bins above 100kpa and normally I only run 3 even on cars with a 400kpa map sensor. There's no real need for that resolution up there. Keep it down low where it'll drive the most 30-70kpa and from idle to 4500.
The car isn't daily driven, basically the only drives it will go on are "Joy rides" and trips to GTGs/Shows and the Track. I'm not to worried about bottom end "drivability" as much as have a highly tuned top end. (Theoretically, my turbo should actually start spooling at around 3000-3500) But once I have my "top" numbers (at this point I don't know how much boost I'll be doing, the engine doesn't run yet), I'll shave everything above and then start filling in on the bottom. I also plan to eventually run dual table for highway cruise and "economy". Using the VE table calculator, it automagically put 75% of my table below 100kpa... sure it would make low rpm and low load tuning easy, but It only had 5 lines for 100kpa and above. I just don't feel that it would have enough resolution for having an accurate boost map.
This is the "Auto-Calculated" VE map:








This is just all "arm chair" theory at this point, well other than needing to be able to drive the car home from the shop LOL


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

oh.... another thing that needs to be considered... "Injector Size". Your maps are based on 44# injectors? Mine are based on 33# injectors running at 4-Bar, which makes them only about 38#. So my VE tables WILL be higher as they need to be open longer per quirt to make the same volume of fuel.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_It only had 5 lines for 100kpa and above. I just don't feel that it would have enough resolution for having an accurate boost map.

I just tuned a DSM last night with bins at 100kpa, 225kpa, 300kpa and 400kpa. It's fast. Believe me, you don't change VE up there as much as you think you should. The only reasons VE will change wildly as you go up are: varying afr as boost goes up, or turbos with a very small efficiency island. The second is more important on the timing side.
Things change much quicker at low load then they do at high load.
Don't worry I start tuning cars with the Chevy 305 'basemap' from Bruce's Jag. You'd be surprised at what cars can actually run on.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

wow.... interesting. hmmm.... I guess I just didn't consider that boost is more linear and not dynamic like vacuum at the bottom end.... hmmm


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

Yeah after 100kpa you don't usually move the throttle around much http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

hmm.... well I did a hybred table... basically, LOL, back to where I started as the other tables have different RPM columns... but I scaled the data back to 85%. I guess I have to accept there isn't too much I can do until I have an actual running car to try it on. LOL


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

I've noticed that I junk 90% of a basemap in the first hour.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

crap... should I re-do my spark table too? make it a little more similar to the dynamics of the VE table?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

Generally I keep the bins pretty close, unless there are areas where I want to purposefully deviate.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

hmmm... well, I didn't change any of kpa or rpm bins... I did how ever make the map a little more agressive. I forget the rule of thumb of so many psi = degree of retard.. so I guessed... started around 1.5-2degrees per kpa seperate and went to 2.5-3.0-4.0 the farther up the table and to the right I went. Again, more "arm chair" tuning.. LOL


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Southcross)*

its usually about 1 degree for every psi


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_its usually about 1 degree for every psi








kewl... so I'm sort of close I was leaning toward 1:1. 10kpa = 1.5psi, so 20kpa would be 3psi or 3degrees or so.... hmmm I'll look at it again


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

Agreed 1deg per psi, starting between 3-5psi. Good, safe place to start.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Agreed 1deg per psi, starting between 3-5psi. Good, safe place to start.
ok, here is where I get a little "confused"... is that psi above standard "atmospheric" (100kpa) or above _"my"_ atmospheric which is about 83kpa at this altitude? I've been starting to retard at about 100kpa, or should I hold out to about 120-140kpa?
new more agressive timing:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

Always use std atmospheric unless you have a reason to turn baro correction off. Hold off to 120kpa you don't need any retard at 3psi.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

ok... kewl, I wasn't sure how barometric correction actually "worked". "Concept" and what it actually "does" is not always the same.
so I could go to 140kpa without needing to retard? hmmm.... I wish I knew exactly how far I can advance my engine, even in naturally aspirated form... hmmm... I'm loosely baseing my advance on my old Mk1 ignition, mechanical advance, and peaked out at about 34 degrees. I added a few degrees higher in the band just because the mk1 dizzy wasn't meant for top end. I'm going to see if I can decipher the spark curves out of my Bentley


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

well.. I verified for my own personal benefit, I did afterall have one of the better Mk1 dizzys, 3-stage mechanical advance:
*1983 Rabbit GTI dizzy
1050-1400 ... Advance Begins
2200 ............ 15-20 degrees
4000 ............ 22-26 degrees
5000 ............ 26-30 degrees
(super conservative as they are "stock")
I had the stock 3A, no knock sensor, timed at 6 degrees (I had one audible knock once at 10 degrees, also I had better dyno numbers at 6 than at 10). So I peaked at about 36btdc at redline. With compression lowered by 1pt, I should be able to advance easily to 10... putting my redline advance upwards of 40degrees at top RPM. hmmm... the fun of reverse engineering


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

Most agressive one so far:








and if the spark curves are correct from my old dizzy... not agressive at all!


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

sooweeet! The car should be ready to drive home today!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*

I'd take 7deg out from 100kpa on up and blend the next two lower bins down into those.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

ya.. but but but.. you said to not start retarding until I hit 3psi
















pics for clicks! webserver finally back up!


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## CozySpeed (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_
pics for clicks! webserver finally back up!









i like dashers the 2 door hatch anyways http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_ya.. but but but.. you said to not start retarding until I hit 3psi









I wouldn't have almost 40deg at 90kpa either.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (CozySpeed)*

awesome looking dasher!
looks super clean


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (CozySpeed)*

awesome looking dasher!
looks super clean


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

I'm having horrible issues getting the car to idle... I'm stuck having to tow it home








oh, and it wouldn't idle worth a shizzle with the VE so far... I had to tripple it to get the car to idle, likely due to the bad hunt/miss.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_awesome looking dasher!
looks super clean
thanks for the compliment!







I love the car, its so rare and gets a lot of head turns... emissions testing was the greatest, the exhaust is loud (and indoors) and people were craning their necks trying to figure out what the hell it was LOL\
I get a lot of "is the a scirocco?"


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (Southcross)*

Pic for clicks.... there is _something_ behind the grill










I'd post more, but everything under the hood is a mess from trying to figure out the ignition issue


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (Southcross)*

UPDATE!
car idles... and even got in a lengthy test drive on the 4th








discovered trigger angle and rising/falling edge issues... had my timing running waaaaayyyy retarded like some old carb'ed v8.
read up on distributor triggering theory in the MegaManual... drank a bunch, reread the MegaManual, compared a couple of distributors... it finally made sense:

took a vernier caliper and used it to estimate my trigger angle:
12.5mm window, 22mm shutter
(ignoring Trig):
angle of crank rotation / (window+shutter)
180degrees / 34.5mm 
5.2degrees per mm
Window: 65.2
Shutter: 114.8
since I ignored Trig, I rounded down to 64degrees as a starting place for "trigger angle", "falling edge"



1 Rotate engine to TDC
2 Rotate engine to 10 btdc
3 Rotate Distributor until ignition LED just barely comes on
4 lock down dizzy and start engine
engine started first try








Tuned my idle, it runs best right now at 20-21 btdc and about 13.8-14:1 afr, gives upwards of 30kpa at idle.
During the test drive we experienced hesitation and backfires below 3K rpms, above that it was like God was pushing the car.
I got some "bottom end" tuning ideas form the MegaSquirt forums... "retard" the timing on MAP rise from idle. Not a direction I even thought of, but from another MS'er that runs a Euro 16v. Retarded timing on MAP rise (acceleration) would likely be the solution I couldn't put my finger on.
I'll post more spark and ve tables once I get in another test drive.... 


_Modified by Southcross at 7:30 PM 7-6-2008_


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Southcross)*

did you check the timing with a light, against what the MS was doing? just to double check that 6* is actually 6*?
ive never seen 20* at idle before...thats the reason i ask


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_did you check the timing with a light, against what the MS was doing? just to double check that 6* is actually 6*?
ive never seen 20* at idle before...thats the reason i ask
yeppers... I even invested in a digital "advance" timing gun. I got a response from someone on the MS forums with a 16v (Euro 1.6?) that idles at 26 (@ 10.6:1). He suggested that I keep it at that advance at idle, then you retard it back to normal advance on kpa rise and rpm increase. I think his setup is similar to like mine: no TPS and no Idle air.
I have also gotten feedback of richening it up and a little more "throttle" air might allow me to bring the Idle advance back down.
I'm working on my next plan of attack... while I'd like to shoot for a more reasonable advance, if that is what it idles best at thats what it idles best at and I'll have to work around it.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

ok... made a bastard child from ValveCoverGaskets old data... tweaked it using my idle advance, and I think I have a good starting setup... advance still seems kind of iffy around 2000-3500
note: I scaled my REQFUEL until my base VEtable "at idle" values matched VCG's table (proportionally) and used that as a starting point.... so what you think are crazy numbers are actually scaled up and will likely only work for someone using a similar REQFUEL.
Constants








Ignition Settings








Air/Fuel Ratio








VE Table (tuning started up to 150kpa, wastegate opens at 147kpa)








Spark Table








my AFR table needs tweaking.... my cruise is typically 2200k-3000k RPM (not 1400-2200), and I discovered the car likes to idle no leaner than 14-14.2
Tuning is basically in the beginning stages.... a lot more work ahead









_Modified by Southcross at 5:16 PM 7-28-2008_


_Modified by Southcross at 5:18 PM 7-28-2008_


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## Shawn B (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: (Southcross)*

UPDATES?
Is this running? Those map tables working? Just wondering


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (Shawn B)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shawn B* »_UPDATES?
Is this running? Those map tables working? Just wondering








sure does








I had to ****-can that spark table... way too much ping when trying to accelerate... for this one: 








if you try it, you will need to adjust the idle area (750-1400, 20-40kpa) to the characteristics of your engine. The high advance at 750 rpm acts to increase RPM if the engine speed were to slow down, kind of like an idle stabilizer. the low advance at the bottom of 1100 acts to pull the idle down. So far this appears to create the best idle on my engine.
As for the VE tables... a very crude tune, runs super rich.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

modified the setup some..
Engine Constants (provides the standard 30 VE at idle)








Ignition Capture... resetup, odd how my capture angle is now over 90 degrees?
















VE table... provides correct AFR to 150 kpa, I don't have a boost controller yet








AFR table... meh...








Spark Table... meh... needs tweaking below 3K








and now... the acceleration enrichment... anyone have any insight into this for MAPdot?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Southcross)*

those injection values look a little too big to me...
ill post up some that have worked in the past on cars ive tuned...the injection times are much shorter http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

heres a table from a supercharged miata








and from an NA 16v scirocco with some headwork/cams and exhaust


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_heres a table from a supercharged miata








AWESOME! 
ya my original numbers were just a copy "across" of the TPSdot numbers... way way WAY to damn rich. I was experiencing severe hesitation on acceleration. I wound up with about .5ms on the low and 5ms on the high end... it was "better" but didn't seem perfect. I'll give your numbers a shot


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_AWESOME! 
ya my original numbers were just a copy "across" of the TPSdot numbers... way way WAY to damn rich. 

yeah the first time i did this, that was the main thing i noticed. the values for the injection times are MUCH MUCH smaller when using this method. it does work though, just takes a little more time to really dial in, in my experience
good luck


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: Race Dasher 2.0t MSIIe Maps (Southcross)*

what ms2e firmware are you running


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: Race Dasher 2.0t MSIIe Maps (Southcross)*

bringing this back from the dead... starting all over again (







) with a different block.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

WTF is up with MSefi.com and MSExtra.com?


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Pic to try and keep myself motivated








new "temporary" engine will be a refreshed 1.8 8v... the 2.0 is going to be rebuilt will all forged internals


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

Did you melt anything on accident?


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (still_a_G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *still_a_G* »_Did you melt anything on accident?
Rings.... in hind sight I should have done a compression test on the engine after initial assembly. In the end I lost nearly 50% of compression out of two opposing cylinders and 80% in another... one, perfect cylinder, was keeping the engine running while the other 3 were dieing... clues to this were drivability issues on low rpms, I thought it was tuning.
this time around, after the 1.8 gets assembled, before its even fired.... its getting compression tested, leakdown if I can.


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