# Missing Xenon lights (UK vehicle)



## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Missing Xenon lights fiasco*

As unbelievable as this sounds I discovered 2 days ago, from reading this forum, that my 4 month old car does not have the Xenon lights that I paid for.
Apparently the dealer ordered the car with them but the factory accidentally missed them off their build spec and when the delaer was supposed to check the build spec before building began, he didn't notice them missing. So I received a car without Xenons, believing they were Xenons and having paid for Xenons.
Now, you might ask why I didn't notice immediately. The fact is, I have never experienced Xenons before and had no expectations of what they would be like. I also made a strong point to my dealer to check off all the options I ordered to make sure it was built right, especially the Xenons since I wouldn't know how to recognise those. He claimed that he checked and that all was good. I believed him - why wouldn't I.
Well, it turns out that VW cannot retrofit Xenons. So there are 2 options: get a refund on the Xenons or get a new car built to the spec I paid for. I want the Xenons.
But here's the unbelievable bit. While I was expecting my dealer to offer to build a new car without discussion and maybe even throw in a goodwill gesture for the terrible service I'd received and making me wait what will end up being nearly 12 months for the car I originally ordered, he made it clear that if they built me a new car I would have to pay _them_ for the increased value of getting a new car 3 months in the future with 07 plates instead of 06 plates!
Get this, _I_ would have to pay _them_ despite the fact it was their mistake that put us in this pickle in the first place, and the fact that it's their side of the agreement that takes 3 months to fulfill and gains me the advantage - I already paid my money and I'm ready to receive the new car tomorrow!
Has anyone else experienced this? Any advice how to proceed? I'm seeing the Brand Manager next week.
thanks
Jason



_Modified by The Fig at 2:39 AM 3-25-2007_


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## [email protected] (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

I don't know how things work in the UK in regards to this, but do not take delivery of the car. The second you take delivery of the car, you are stuck with it. 
Your dealer should make good on this though. Our newly minted moderator Mark had an oopsie happen on his Eos; showed up with a CD changer and not the iPod he ordered. I made sure it was corrected before he took the car, as that is my job. Sounds like your dealer needs to realize that too. 
Don't take delivery of the car, as you might be able to back out of the contract as long as you don't hit the road with your car.


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## andythai (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

Jason, hi I can imagine how you feel,espesially after waiting all that time.What I would do if I were you is forget the dealer and send an email or a letter directly to the factory with all the details and DEMAND for a new car with all the options that you ordered in the first place,its there mistake and they have to fix it.Your a paying customer and have every right to order a car with the extras you want..........Andy


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco ([email protected])*

Hi Brendan,
unfortunately I took delivery of the car 4 months ago and have only just discovered the mistake. And as for the dealer making good, the VW factory have made it very clear to them that they MUST NOT try and retrofit Xenons to a non-Xenon car. So we are in this pickle, as the only way to 'make good' is to build me a new car for which they want me to pay 'increased value' costs.
Jason


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

You could always try for breach of contract.
I thought the dealer I went to was poor, glad I didn't go down your way........


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (andythai)*

Hi Andy,
I hear what you're saying, but I wouldn't know where to start. I imagine a random letter to the factory in Portugal demanding a car would have the same result as when I try and talk to VW UK customer care - 'this is an issue with your dealer, work it our with them'
Jason
P.S good to see someone from Cyprus, my mother is originally from Ammochostos.


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## andythai (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

Your joking,so are both my parents from Ammohostos,but I was born in London.I really hope you get it sorted out with the EOS because its a real great car. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

This is definitely not a good situation, but I thing you need to go through the VW channel fisrt and see where that leads. If all else fails as long as you have paperwork showing what you ordered and paid for the only other choice you may have is to see a laywer or whatever you have in the UK. Here in the states we have several options. Whatever you have to do hang in there and Good Luck.
Andy


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

As you're looking for advice I would like to suggest that you step back for a minute and look at the matter from the point of "what would make you whole". Also, look at it from the point of view of all three parties and that each one concerned wishes for an amicable resolution.
The problem is the Xenons were omitted during the factory build process. I don't think it was done deliberately as thats what VW is in the business of - selling cars with optional equipment. This oversight probably was compounded by the dealer assuming the car was built as ordered and yourself for not noticing until four months later. So, everyone has some degree of responsibility here. So what are the options:
1. Refund the customer the cost of this option.
2. Replace the car with one as originally ordered.
1. This to me is the most appropriate option. The vehicle is 4 months old and no dealer will be able to sell it for the same price as a similarily equipped new one. Had the oversight been noticed the day of delivery than yes but not now. As much as you might want to blame the dealer for missing the Xenons you have to admit it took you 4 months to notice.
2. In relation to the cost of the Xenons replacing a 4 month old vehicle without some adjustment for depreciation, etc. would be over compensating you IMHO. And, I doubt any legal outlet you have would support getting a new vehicle just because a option like Xenons was omitted???
Considering the 1,000's and 1,000's of cars VW builds missing an option here and there occassionaly probably doesn't have them stop the line as I would imagine that they think the dealer will catch any missing items and if they don't the customer will and they'll resolve it at that point. Taking delivery was the clincher here - essentially that's accepting it as is.
I guess one also has to decide what kind of relationship you want with your dealer. The dealer has a vested interest in servicing what they sell more than any other dealer.
This is just my viewpoint - I'm not trying to take sides at all - more like I'm trying to approach this from a mediator standpoint.
Good Luck
Craig


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Roku)*

To be honest - I don´t think the plant in Portugal messed it up.....
What does your car Info Sticker in the Trunk tell you.
Does it contain the "M-Ausstattung" Option Code for the Xenon Lights.
If not - the dealer messed up your order during the Ordering process.
Good Luck
Freund


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Freund)*

Hi Freund,
correct, the plant in Portugal did not mess up, it was the dealer. As I said in the first post, the factory asked for confirmation of the spec from the dealer before staring to build (as part of their QA process) and the dealer didn't check the spec properly before confirming.
The dealer has already accepted responsibility for the mistake, that's not the problem. It's just a difference of opinion as to what a fair resolution is.
Jason


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Freund)*

Check your sales agreement and read the terms and conditions thoroughly and carefully.
These will vary market to market, and even region to region, but since Canadian and British contract law share a common ancestory, you may find a clause similar to the one on that appears on the back of my sales agreement.
*12. Errors*
_If there has been an error by the Dealer in any calculation or any other matter on the front side hereof or in connection with the sale of the motor vehicle described herein. The Purchaser agrees to allow the Dealer to correct the error forthwith and if the correction requires any amount to be paid by one party or the other, such amount shall be paid immediately._
If a similar clause appears on your sales agreement, you may have limited your recourse to exactly what the dealer has offered, a refund on the cost of the missing option.
If I were in the situation you find yourself, based on the clause above that appears on my sales contract, I would, at the very minimum, have agreed to turn the authority for resolution over to the dealer. It states clearly the Purchaser allows the Dealer to correct the error, not the "Purchaser and Dealer will arrive at a mutually agreeable settlement". 
I empathize with your situation, and although it may not seem fair, the fact that the error was overlooked for 4 months does factor in to a certain degree.
I also have to agree with Fruend, I think there is a high degree of probability the dealership made the error on the original order to the factory.
I sincerely hope it it works out better for you, but as a first step read your sales contract, fair or not, it may very well spell out what options you have for recourse.
Kevin








*Note:* Best case scenario is to take a positive, co-operative approach to a resolution with your dealership, they may be quite open to a negotiated solution. The "black and white" of the sales agreement will come into play if you choose the "lawyer" route, hopefully you can avoid that outcome.




_Modified by just4fun at 6:59 PM 3-24-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_As unbelievable as this sounds I discovered 2 days ago, from reading this forum, that my 4 month old car does not have the Xenon lights that I paid for... 

It does sound a bit unbelievable - I mean, cars have had xenon lights for about 4 or 5 years now, the xenon ones look kind of blueish, whereas the halogen ones look - well, they look like every other light bulb that has been made for the past 25 years, since halogen light bulbs first started to appear in the early 1980s.
First off, perhaps double-check things to make absolutely, positively sure that you do or do not have xenon lights. There is a post here that shows the difference between xenon and non-xenon lights. The key identification issue (besides the blueish light) seems to be the presence of the cornering light. I am not trying to belittle you by saying this, however it is clear that you are not an expert on lighting, so make darn sure you get the facts straight up front.
If it turns out that your car does not have xenon lights, check to see if the sales agreement that you signed clearly specifies that the car should have xenon lights. If the sales agreement specifies xenon lights, and you have paid for them, *now you have to decide what outcome you want.*
That last statement - in bold - is really the key issue. I'll take the dealership at their word that the xenon headlights cannot be retrofitted - I have had a quick look at the wiring diagrams and there are a lot of differences and a lot of additional part (besides the headlight assembly) needed. So, it really comes down to this: Do you want a refund for what you paid for the xenon lights, or do you want them to take the car back? I don't think there is a third choice available to you.
If you want a refund for the price paid for the xenon lights, you are certainly entitled to that and I doubt that anyone, least of all the dealer, would dispute this. If you want them to take the whole car back, the strength of your position is a bit compromised by the fact that it took you 4 months to find out that something you thought was there was not there. I mean, that's a pretty good argument to suggest that you were satisfied with the illumination coming from the front of the car during the first four months of ownership. Nonetheless, if you want them to take the car back and give you your money back, I think you could press the point hard enough and get them to take it back.

_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_Any advice how to proceed? 

Yes. Decide what outcome you want to achieve before you go see the Brand Manager. Don't go into the meeting with the Brand Manager on a 'fishing trip' to find out what is on offer. Remember, no business can meet your needs (make you happy) unless they know exactly what it is that you want in order to be happy.
Michael


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_Hi Freund,
correct, the plant in Portugal did not mess up, it was the dealer. As I said ...
Jason

Hi Fig,
Sorry I miss understood your original post that read "Apparently the dealer ordered the car with them but the factory missed them off" - I read that still as the factory messed up. Maybe you could edit it to read clearer.
My advice still stands though.
Craig


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
cars are not my field of expertise or my hobby. This is the first modern car I have owned and before that I lived in a city centre for 10 years without need of a car or any interest in cars. (However, I know about projectors and I could tell you instantly if it's a DLP projector or an LCD projector by just looking at the image.) Even the salesman who sold me the car had to get a mechanic to tell us if the lights were Xenon or not and he works in the industry. And while I think about it, if it had been my wife buying the car she would have absolutely no idea how to check if the car had 17" or 18" alloys, or if the engine was an FSI or a TFSI etc etc, let alone Xenon headlights. 
And the fact that it's been 4 months does not mean I've been satisfied with the lights for 4 months. I've tried many times (and obviously failed) to witness the cornering function, and yes I did notice that they did not illuminate the road much differently to other cars I've driven. So I spent my first 4 months concluding that cornering Xenon headlamps were a waste of money. (I also had a life to be getting on with)
In addition, when the invoice says you have Xenon, and you have been charged for it, and you specifically ask the dealer to check that Xenons exist on the delivered car, and they confirm their presence, there's a pretty strong momentum of belief about the existence of them.
The outcome I want is simply to have the car that I originally ordered and paid for at no additional cost. I have made that very clear to the dealer - I'm not interested in playing games.
I also plan to find out what the legal obligation of the dealer is before I see the Brand Manager, as if all they have to do is refund me the cost of the Xenons to comply then there's not much I can do.
This isn't a black and white situation for me and I very much appreciate everyone's advice and point of view.
Jason


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

Jason
First let start of by stating that I have the Bi-Xenons. At first I really didn't notice the benefit of having the Bi-Xenons, and the only time I really noticed them was during the little dance they do when you start the car. However all of my night driving for the first month was city street or Urban Freeway driving. A couple of weeks ago I took a short cut down a twisty road the follows the bottom of a canyon on a dark night and was totally amazed by the amount of light and the benefits of the steering tracking. At that point I began to appreciate their worth.
Last night I drove from the Bay Area up to Lake Tahoe. The first part of the journey, between the Bay Area and Sacramento, consists of flat motorway driving, and again in those conditions I would guess there was no real benefit to the Bi-Xenons over what I suspect the standard lights in an EOS would provide. 
However once I got up beyond Auburn where Highway 80 starts climbing into the High Sierra the Bi-Xenons once again provided their worth. From Auburn to Truckee Highway 80 climbs over 7000' in approx 40 miles, so even though it is still a US Interstate it consists of large sections of fairly steep and twisty road. Again on this section I really noticed the difference between the Bi-Xenon lights and the lighting I get with our Acura MDX, which is the high-end 'Yank Tank' I normally drive on this route. Several times I commented to my significant other on how better illuminated the road seemed. 
The last section of the journey to our cabin is on un-lighted country roads and once again the benfits of the additional illiumination and steering capability was both noticable and useful.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are going to do any significant amount of night driving on country 'A' or 'B' class roads in the UK the Bi-Xenons will be really useful, however if most of your night driving will be on city streets or main roads / motorways you probably won't miss them.
Hopefully this will help you decide whether or not they are something you will find useful, and that will help you decide whether you want a refund or a replacement car. 
BTW is the dealer's argument for want you pay extra for a replacement vehicle based on
(1). You'd get a 2007 rather than a 2006 model year car which would have a higher resale value ?
(2). There's been a price increase for the 2007 model year car ?
(3). The wear and tear / depreciation accrused on the existing car ?
I'm not sure I'd buy any of the above aguments myself and based on my experience with the lights would want a replacement at no cost to me. 
Do you know if VW UK will be buying the car back, or since it appears to be the dealers error will they be having to carry the loss associated with buying your car back and re-selling it second hand themselves.
One of way of looking at the amout of money involved is 
The dealer made a certain amount of profit when they first sold you the car. Given that it is their mistake they cannot expect to make that profit again by selling you another vehicle, even though that may represent lost opportunity for them if there is limited availability of the EOS in the UK.
The dealer has also had the benefit of the additional money (in effect a free of interest loan) for 4 months.
On the other hand, since it appears it was their mistake they are going to make a loss on repurchasing your car at the original cost, and then reselling as a second hand car, presumably at lower value and will have to incur some reconditioning / servicing costs in the process. 
You will benefit to some extent from getting a replacement car with a 2007 model year re-sale value and lower milage should you decide to sell it at the same time as you would have sold the original car. There is some benefit to you in this...
You have incurred certain losses in aggravation and a ruined vacation due to the DPF issue.
Try and put it all down on paper and see if there is any amount that you feel is reasonable given the improved resale value of the replacement car, and offer that. I can quite believe that the answer will be zero, in which case you have little choice but to stick your guns and get a full refund
Not sure if this helps at all...
-Mark


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## geedee (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

Hi Jason
It's me again.
Just caught your post and can't believe your bad luck.
If you have a written order for the Xenon's and they are on the invoice,
just reject the car.
I know it's hard having waited so long, but I have done that with an earlier EOS which my wife ordered . They screwed up the paddle shifts for the DSG and then phoned to say the car was awaiting shipment but without the shifts.. I just told them to keep it and they re ordered the one we are due to collect this week.
I don't know if you get the Telegraph on a Saturday, but Honest John's
motoring column is great for this type of info.
I know he would tell you to reject the car so why not mail him at
[email protected] he will reply very quickly.................
Give him the full facts and see what he says.
If you do decide to keep the car, can I suggest that you do as I am doing, replace the standard bulbs with Phillips H7 X-Treme bulbs in both dip and full beam. They claim 80% increase over standard bulbs
and are Xenon filled. I have fitted them to the main beam of my Merc and they are awesome (I already have HID fitted on dip).
HTH
Graham


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

Jason,
You have had a particularly poor deal from your dealer. There is more going on than just the Xenon issue, as your experience with the handbook and your problems with the particulate filter goes to show.
Your first recourse is with the dealer.
Your second recourse is with VW UK
Your final recourse is through the courts.
Look at your overall experience, including the ruined holiday and the goods you have paid for and not received. What do you want to achieve?
Okay, I think we all get that you want a new car made to your correct spec at no cost to yourself. If that is not an option, what will you accept? Would you be happy to have the cost of the Xenons deducted and maybe free supply/fitting of the xenon after market bulbs? Maybe a free service or something else within the control of the dealer to give you by way of compensation for your ruined holiday?
Will the dealer agree to that?
If you cannot reach an agreement, then take it up with VW UK. don't go down the road (pardon the pun) of Customer Services; they are trained to deal with complaints, write directly to the head of VW UK, I posted his details in the thread about your handbook problems. In my experience, most managers want to keep their problems to themselves and not under the bright lights of their managers or indeed, the manufacturer. When I complained about my handbook - just a handbook - I received a short reply from VW UK telling me my problem would be resiolved, but then not only a letter of apology from the dealer and a handbook by return, but a very apologetic telephone call where the dealer asked what he could do to make it right, and if I was to receive a follow up call from VW UK themselves, would I please let them know that the matter had been resolved. It may be that that particular dealer had let standards slip and were already under the spotlight with VW, who knows.
However, if they are not willing to step in and put things right, then your final recourse is to the courts. If you are looking at claiming back the full value of your car, you are way out of the range of the small claims court, so if you have any legal protection insurance, now is the time to look at it.
In fact, if you have legal insurance, I would suggest a call to them for advice on what they judge to be reasonable, based upon case law and their experience. This will benefit you whether you go down the route of the dealer, VW or the courts.
The Sale of Goods Act is probably the legislation you are going to be relying upon, so below I have posted some brief details. As you can see, it is not all plain sailing for you, hence the suggestion to seek legal advice. (You should also take account, as someone has already suggested, of any wording on any order form etc. that might set out limitations and contractual restrictions. Bear in mind that if it is not a reasonable condition, it may not be lawfully enforced).
When you buy goods from a trader, such as a shop, market stall, garage, etc, you enter into a contract, which is controlled by many laws including, the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended by the Sale & Supply of Goods Act 1994 and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002). The law gives you certain implied, or automatic, statutory rights, under this contract.
The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) says that goods should be as follows:
* Of satisfactory quality.
* Fit for the purpose
* As described
As described:
- goods should correspond with any description applied to them.
When are you not entitled to anything?
* If you were told of any faults before you bought the goods.
* If the fault was obvious and it would have been reasonable to have noticed it on examination before buying.
* If you caused any damage yourself.
* If you made a mistake, e.g. you don't like the colour, it is the wrong size etc.
* If you have changed your mind about the goods, or seen them cheaper elsewhere.
What are you entitled to ask for?
If the goods are faulty at the time of sale, you are legally entitled to request one of the following remedies:
1) A full refund.
_*This remedy is available when the goods have not been 'accepted'.*_
Under the Sale of Goods Act, acceptance can take place in three ways:
* By telling the retailer that you have accepted them.
* By acting in a way with the goods which is inconsistent with the seller's ownership. E.g. if you have altered the goods in any way or customised them then you would be deemed to have accepted them.
* _*By keeping them for longer than a reasonable time without telling the seller that you have rejected them. There is no time specified in the Act and it may vary according to the type of goods. Ultimately, it may be for the judge to decide whether an unreasonable time has passed and whether goods have been accepted. For this reason you must contact the supplier, preferably in writing, as soon as the fault appears. To delay may mean you lose a right to a refund*_
If acceptance has taken place, then only the following remedies are available:
2) Compensation (damages)
The amount of compensation may be based on the cost of repair, or if that is not possible, compensation may be based on the purchase price with an allowance for usage.
3) Repair or replacement
_*The trader can refuse to agree to either of these remedies if it is disproportionate in comparison to the other remedies. For example, if you ask a trader to replace a washing machine then he would be entitled to turn down your request and offer a repair instead.*_
However, the repair or replacement must be carried out within a reasonable time and without causing significant inconvenience to the consumer. If this does not happen or the repair or replacement is not possible, then the consumer can rescind the contract (claim a refund) or request a reduction in purchase price.
Please note: The remedies of repair/replacement and the subsequent rescission or reduction in purchase price are not applicable to Hire Purchase contracts and other laws apply.
4) Rescission or reduction in price
These financial remedies can only be achieved by a failure of the repair / replacement option once acceptance has taken place. If the trader agrees to rescission, the amount paid may be reduced to take account of usage.
Once you have chosen a remedy and the trader has agreed, you must give the trader a reasonable time to effect the chosen remedy before switching to another one. Ultimately, if a remedy cannot be agreed upon, then the courts have the power to choose any of the remedies.
Proving the fault
* If you have not accepted the goods and are rejecting and claiming a full refund or damages, it is YOU, the consumer, who needs to prove that there has been a breach of contract in that the goods are not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described at the time of purchase.
* If you are claiming the remedies of repair or replacement within the first six months after purchase, it is for THE TRADER to prove that the goods conformed to the contract at the time of sale.
* If you are claiming repair or replacement more than six months after purchase, the burden of proof is back to YOU, the consumer.
* If it becomes necessary to obtain an expert opinion to support your claim, there are procedures to follow before you employ anyone in this capacity. County Court rules say that where an expert is necessary, it should be a single, jointly approved expert, and the expert's duty is to the court. You need to agree your choice of expert with the other party, and allow them to put their comments to the expert. Failure to follow this procedure may mean that a judge may not allow your expert to be heard should the matter eventually reach County Court. 
Who can you claim against for faulty goods?
Your claim could be against:
* the retailer under the Sale of Goods Act;
* the manufacturer (under the terms of a guarantee if you have one);
* a credit company if financed by credit; or
* the credit card company 
Guarantees
If the manufacturer of the goods provides a free guarantee with the goods, this creates a contractual obligation by the guarantor. If the manufacturer fails to honour the guarantee, you could sue the manufacturer for the promises he makes. A guarantee is extra to your rights under the Sale of Goods Act. In some circumstances, you may have a claim under the guarantee, but find that a claim under the Sale of Goods Act would be difficult to prove, or vice versa. You may also in some circumstances have a claim against both, and therefore have a choice of who to claim against. 
A trader or manufacturer is under no obligation to provide a guarantee, and if they do, they can specify any time span, for example six months, twelve months or three years. They can also specify what is to be covered by the guarantee, and exclude certain parts, or wear and tear. They cannot, however, take away any rights you would have under the Sale of Goods Act
Returns policies
Some retailers make promises out of goodwill that they will issue refunds for unused goods within a time period, for whatever reason. This creates additional useful rights for consumers.
Offences
If the seller is in business (rather than a private seller), he may have committed a criminal offence if he:
* sells goods which are unsafe;
* _*has given a false description to the goods i.e. a car sold with incorrect mileage (clocked car)*_;
* gives a false description to the services he is providing e.g. falsely claiming to be a member of a trade association;
* advertises a misleading price;
* displays a sign which states 'No Refunds'.
If you feel that any of the above could apply, you should report the matter to your local Trading Standards Service before you return to the trader (Although I think this is more a case of error than deceit).
Here is a good place to sound off, but when you get to the dealer, its better to be calm, prepared, businesslike and realistic, which I am sure you will be. Hope it works out for you.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Gadgeteer1066)*

Norman has provided a very carefully thought out and well written analysis.
I think that the rub, the hitch, the fly in the ointment in Jason's case is that he has been using the car for four months. This doesn't necessarily reduce the strength of any of his arguments, or undermine his assertion that what he received was not what he paid for, but it does, I think, reduce the number of possibilities open to Jason for resolution of the problem.
Had the error in build spec been discovered on the day of delivery, most of us would agree that Jason probably would have had the following alternatives available:
*1)* Reject the car and ask for a refund of all money paid.
*2)* Reject the car and ask for a replacement car that conformed with the order.
*3)* Negotiate with the dealer to reach a mutually agreed price reduction or other settlement, then accept the car 'as is'.
Looking more closely at the third option, Jason would have had significantly more clout to negotiate a more generous settlement than simply a price adjustment for the missing xenon lights had he noticed the missing lights at the time of delivery of the car. Leaving aside any ethical issues related to such negotiation, my point is that if the car is in the delivery bay ready to be driven out the door, the selling dealer would have been highly motivated to come up with whatever sweetener would have been needed (price reduction + complimentary case of Krug, etc.) to get that car out the door, because Jason's position at that time would have been unassailable - he could pick up his money and walk, or he could negotiate and take the car. It would have been entirely Jason's call.
Had the error in build spec been discovered very shortly after delivery - for example, within a week or two - and had Jason immediately ceased using the car, returned it to the dealer, and asked for the error to be rectified, he probably would have had the same three options open to him at that time also, although (again, setting aside the ethics) his negotiating position vis a vis point 3 would have been weaker.
The practical problem Jason is facing now - and note that I say 'practical problem', not 'academic problem' - is that he has been using the car for 4 months, which very strongly implies that he has been satisfied with the function of the vehicle for the past 4 months, and that he has been careless (in the literal sense of the word) about carrying out normal due diligence to make sure that the product he took delivery of conformed to the order he placed. Because Jason has let 4 months elapse between taking delivery of the car and bringing the non-conformity to the attention of the vendor, any negotiating leverage that Jason may have had for point 3 above has pretty much evaporated. In other words, Jason has been just as negligent as the dealer when it comes to inspecting the car and making sure that it conforms to the specification ordered. Both parties have demonstrated carelessness here.
This means that when it comes down to the 'short strokes' of resolving this problem, I think that Jason really has only two realistic alternatives left:
*1)* Accept a settlement for the amount of the overpayment made for the xenon lights that were not installed on the car, or;
*2)* Return the car and demand a refund of all money paid. If this option is exercised, it could be reasonably argued that Jason should pay some amount for the 4 months usage of the car that he has had. What that amount is, who knows - if the car was on a lease, it would be easy to figure out (4 months payments, no more, no less), but if the car is on a hire-purchase or if Jason paid cash, doing the sums becomes a bit more complex and prone to argument.
Based on my past experience observing these kind of disputes when they have been discussed on the forum in the past, my guess is that the retailer (the VW dealer) might be a bit reluctant to go along with option 2, but if Jason pushed the matter, VW of UK (the importer) would probably step in and ensure that the car was bought back.
The elephant in the room that no-one is acknowledging here is human greed. Undoubtedly the ideal settlement, in Jason's opinion, would be that the dealer would refund an amount considerably higher than the cost differential of the xenon lights, and perhaps still throw in a case of Krug to keep Jason's goodwill. Sadly, though, that ain't gonna happen. The dealer was negligent in not ensuring that the car met the specification set out in the original order, but Jason - who, at 34 years of age, is unquestionably an adult - was also negligent in not inspecting the vehicle to make sure that it conformed with the order specifications when he took delivery of it, or within a short period after taking delivery of it. If Jason had caught the error at the time of delivery, he would have been in a position to pressure the dealer to negotiate a large price reduction. But, he didn't catch the error, and thus from the perspective of 4 months down the road, he is as much to blame for the omission as the dealer is.
It's fish or cut bait time: Accept a refund for the price difference between halogen and xenon lights, or press the case that the car be taken back. Either-or, there is no in-between.
That's my take on it.
Michael


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (mark_d_drake)*

Mark - I have been travelling this exact route SanFran to (Truckee) Squaw Valley a couple of times last year.
Okay I have not been using an EOS but a EU-Spec Touran with HID and Adaptive Frontlighting.
It really made a BIG Difference - those lights are way advanced and the possible vision while driving a corner (equal if a wide one on the interstate or small winding roads up the Donner Pass for example).
If anybody asks himself if the cornering lights are a good investment - I´ll answer YES!
Just my 2Cent (Sorry)
Freund










_Modified by Freund at 8:24 PM 3-25-2007_


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## GurnyGub (Nov 21, 2006)

Jason,
I don't think you could ask for and receive better advice than the guys have given you above, and, yes, I would be very humpy too. However on reading all those helpful posts in one go, Michael's 'due diligence' comment stands out. Missing spare wheel down the line yeah, possibly the wrong size wheels would not be apparent, but pretty much everything else is checkable straightaway. I'm not exactly saying you should've put the lights on, jumped out and seen if they're blue, but, well, sale of goods wise, that would not be far away from any legal view. Norman's post is especially relevant, and I wish you a happy outcome.
John


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## [email protected] (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (GurnyGub)*

Just read the part of having the xenons listed on the invoice. If they are, you took delivery of a car without the promised items installed, and that can void the contract. Doesn't matter when you noticed it.
I recently helped a roommate buy a car (from a dealer I hate), and after they tried and failed to push me around, she got the car. Funny thing is they punched the car as sold 8 months ago to get a sales bonus. My roommate didn't notice till her service advisor told her, and now her warranty period doesn't match up with the amount on the window sticker, and there was no declaration of the change when she signed the paper work. 
What does this mean? She'll drive it for 3 or 4 years, and then return it for a full refund. Had they been nice to me, I would have taken a free 12 mon warranty, but since they pissed me off, she'll return the car for free or she'll take them to court. 
This means if you purchased the car with the contract stating you have an option, and that option is missing, you can either settle nicely, or be like me and go for the throat; a new car. It all depends on what paperwork you have, and what you can prove. 
Best of luck!


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Gadgeteer1066)*

Excellent Post Norman. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Kevin


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Freund)*

Fruend
I only really noticed the difference once I got East of Sacramento, and then the difference was really noticable...
-Mark


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 8:05 PM 3-25-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Brendan:
Do keep in mind that English Common Law is far different than the laws you have in America, and most especially in California. Some laws in California are absolutely wacko - right off the wall - and a lot of car companies are having problems with California now because of the way some of the laws there are written.
The law in the UK is, for the most part, based on common sense. The same cannot be said for California.








I also have rather serious doubts about whether or not your scheme to get a refund in 3 years will work. When you raise the issue, most likely someone (the car dealer) will say _"Oh, you are quite right, that warranty end date *is *incorrect, let me fix it... _and a couple of days later, you will get a letter in the mail confirming that the calendar portion of your new car warranty ends 4 years after the date of purchase, as it should have. In other words, don't spend the money you hope to get from the California buy-back legislation just yet.
Michael


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## [email protected] (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Brendan:
Do keep in mind that English Common Law is far different than the laws you have in America, and most especially in California. Some laws in California are absolutely wacko - right off the wall - and a lot of car companies are having problems with California now because of the way some of the laws there are written.
The law in the UK is, for the most part, based on common sense. The same cannot be said for California.








I also have rather serious doubts about whether or not your scheme to get a refund in 3 years will work. When you raise the issue, most likely someone (the car dealer) will say _"Oh, you are quite right, that warranty end date *is *incorrect, let me fix it... _and a couple of days later, you will get a letter in the mail confirming that the calendar portion of your new car warranty ends 4 years after the date of purchase, as it should have. In other words, don't spend the money you hope to get from the California buy-back legislation just yet.
Michael

You are correct on the fact that English law, and law in CA are far different things. I'm just posting based on what seems to be in the realm of possible; who knows, maybe it will pan out for him. 
In regards to my roommate, it's an issue that will result in the refund of her car. I talked with enough people at my dealership about this, and that is the kiss of death in CA right now. Not signing a buyers guide, or a vehicle history report in finance, or before taking delivery can void a contract when those documents are needed, and dealerships will settle and take the car back. I also know, as it has happened to us before in the past.







It's not the fact that the warranty started before; it's the fact that it wasn't disclosed. Hope that makes sense.


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## Chris_Gursche (Jul 11, 2005)

*Re: (Brenda[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_What does this mean? She'll drive it for 3 or 4 years, and then return it for a full refund. Had they been nice to me, I would have taken a free 12 mon warranty, but since they pissed me off, she'll return the car for free or she'll take them to court. 

I hope you're not counting on this. Your opportunity to return the car likely expired when you failed to take action at the time of the notification, but you can check that with a lawyer. In any case, your legal costs to return the car in 3 years will likely outweigh the benefits of having driven it for that time. Not to mention the probable ulcer.


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## Chris_Gursche (Jul 11, 2005)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*

If the dealer is offering you a new car with the Xenon's and all you have to pay is the difference between the 2006 and 2007 models, and you get to drive your car until the new one arrives, then it is as fair and equitable an offer as you are likely to receive. You do, after all, get the value of the new vehicle on resale, and you have then driven a vehicle at no cost for the four months plus the time it takes to replace it, so you're not making out badly at all.
If you return your car for a full refund, how will that be different than above, other than that you will have nothing to drive while you wait for your new car?
If you get the money back for your Xenon's you won't be happy either.
If the dealer is offering you the first scenario, which I understand from your post, they are taking quite a hit to make it right for you. They certainly don't have to do this, and they won't be making a penny of profit from you, not even if you buy your next car from them at list. 
Are you looking for an equitable solution, or are you wanting to punish the dealer for the mistake?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (Chris_Gursche)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chris_Gursche* »_Are you looking for an equitable solution, or are you wanting to punish the dealer for the mistake?

That is the $64,000 question whenever an issue like this comes up in the forum.
I gave Jason the benefit of the doubt on this one - I think he's just asking what the other forum members think the possible outcomes could be and how he should proceed. His comment at the end of his original post confirms this: _"Any advice how to proceed?"_
Brendan, on the other hand, is just scheming to take best advantage of an opportunity that is presented by a piece of bad legislation. I doubt very much that he is seeking resolution of the problem (incorrect in-service date recorded for warranty coverage), or attempting to do 'what is right', as opposed to 'what is permitted'.
Michael


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

Jason,
I definitely feel for you, but in all fairness, 4 months is a bit of a stretch to figure this out. So as an objective outside, I look at this and determine that there were two parties (both your self and the dealer) who did not exercise due dilligence. So I would therefore see the outcome as both parties making some ameends for the actions, not only one. It appears this is where you have drawn the line and are holding fast that the dealer is the only one to pay for the oversight.
If, as you said, you were looking for the benefit of the high priced lights, didn't you ever think ask anyone who might know the differences? Even post something here. I bet if you had asked the forum, someone could have given you a very practical answer (as Mark did) to figure this out much sooner. And for that matter, the Xenon lights are an expensive upgrade, wouldn't you want to know what you were paying for even before you ordered the car? Had you done so, you would have know immediately that they were not to spec.
So given all this, I think it is fair (and this is my own personal view, as fairness is in the eye of the beholder) that the dealer offered a refund on an option you clearly didn't miss.
Please keep in mind also, that I am not trying to disparage you, just pointing out what an outside sees of the situation.
I wish you luck in getting this resolved to your decided satisfaction, but in offering advice on "how to proceed" I would suggest lowering your expectations.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (jgermuga)*

Ok, so I admit it I'm a gadget freak, and an early adopter who enjoy's hanging of the bleeding edge by his fingertips, particularly if it's computer related...
To be fair to Jason I did order the Bi-Xenons without really being aware of the benefits, simply based on the fact they seemed to fall into the 'newer' is 'better' category. In my defense with the way items are packaged in the US, it wasnt' that much more expensive, particularly since I did want PDC. 
That said, I probably wouldn't have noticed the difference it they'd been omitted except for the fact that someone had posted pictures of a Bi-Xenon equiped 3.2 where you clearly see the difference in the design of the units. 
However I'm sure Brendan would have noticed the difference in a second, and while he is probably more technical than most sales staff, I would have expected the dealer to notice during the PDI, which I assume should have checked the car delivered against the original paperwork.


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

Hi Guys,
It'll take me over 30 mins to do a full post, but for now can anyone tell me if a 2002 Audi TT coupe q1.8 R4 (132KW) could have ever been specified with *cornering* Xenons? I know you could have Xenons, but were they also cornering?
It's quite important and I'll explain why in my next post.
thanks
Jason


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (The Fig)*

Jason, I don't think that the technology for headlights that turn to follow the direction of the car emerged until quite recently - perhaps 2005 or so. It could be that someone has refitted later model lights to a 2002 Audi TT (I think the body style of that car was the same from start of production right up to 2006), or maybe someone fitted an aftermarket solution, but it is doubtful that it left the factory with adaptive headlights.
This is speculation on my part, not fact.
Michael


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Update 1*

Ok, first of all huge thanks for everyone's help and great posts, I found (almost) all of them very useful (sorry Brendan







), and I appreciate the time it takes for a long and well thought out post.
Now that I've read the posts and considered the situation more calmly, I agree that it is unreasonable for me to get 6 months of depreciation for free. I'm not greedy (no more than average anyway) and I certainly do not want to punish the dealer. I actually feel a bit sorry for the Salesman that screwed it up - I don't know what the repercussions will be for him. It just boils down to getting what I believe to be fair regarding my whole experience with this purchase (not just the missing Xenons)
Today I met with the brand manager. We spoke for 2 hours and it was very reasonable, very gentlemanly and businesslike. He listened to my perspective on things for all the negative experiences I've had with his dealership and VW UK, and took notes the whole time. I gained a fair bit of respect for him and was left believing that he genuinely was sorry for all that had happened and would do everything he could to resolve the situation. For example he went straight to their TDI demo car and gave me the handbook from it. (I finally have the right handbook - yay!)
He basically wants me to pay the depreciation value of the car from Nov 06 (when I received delivery) up until I get the new one, say in July. He will then take the original car and sell it. He gave me a ball park figure of $4000 that I would have to pay. Now, this seems pretty steep to me, and if that was the deal I'd have to just accept a refund for the lights - I simply don't have $4,000. I already spent $56,000 on this car.
However, if I pay the full $4000 then it seems to me that the dealer has not paid any penalty for their part in this situation because I'm covering their loss in reselling the original car, but they still get the full profit on the replacement car. What I think is fair is that we deduct about $1500 for their part in missing the Xenons, and then another $500 for still not having the manual, the DPF fiasco, terrible service from the dealership (and VW UK) and being double charged for heated seats. And then another $500 for having effectively given the dealer a $1000 interest free loan for what will end up being 8 months, for having to wait another 4 months for the right car, and generally all the grief and agro. I'd be willing to pay $1500 as long as I could pay it in monthly installments (the rest of the car was paid outright).
Does that seem unreasonable or greedy to you guys?
Now, obviously the Brand Manager would rather I just accepted the refund for the lights. To help me decide if I really did want the Xenons he let me take home for 1 night a 2002 Audi TT with Xenons. I went for a drive tonight in the Peak District - dark, twisty, hilly country roads. The moment I turned on the lights I instantly noticed a) the flicker, b) the blue colour. This is my very first experience of Xenons and I realised how obvious it was that they were Xenons. However, there is no way these were cornering Xenons, unless the effect is so slight it's hard to notice. The way that Mark and Freund tell it, I get the feeling I'd really notice the lights turning independently of the car turning and I'd see the difference. I also have to say that I wasn't blown away with how much better the Xenons were at lighting the road. However, the moon and stars were bright, so I don't know what effect that has.
Also, I'd like to ask you guys this: if the main beam lights are also Xenon, do they also flicker every time you flash them? Because these didn't. And it seems to me that just having the dipped beams in Xenon is mainly pointless, as they are dipped, so they can't be lighting up more of the road or to a greater distance than dipped halogens can they? (BTW I know for the Eos both dipped and main are Xenons)
Anyway, so now I REALLY want to experience the cornering Xenons of an Eos to see what they would really be like.

Why did it take 4 months to notice 
I feel the need to address this again. Forgive me. Imagine the only car you have had is a 7 year old Corsa and you have never experienced Xenons before. None of your friends or family have them. You don't watch car shows on TV or read car magasines. Car are not your hobby. Then you buy an Eos, with enhanced EVERYTHING over a Corsa, including the lights. It's just not that obvious that those amazing enhanced headlights aren't in fact the even more enhanced headlights.
I'm gonna give another example. At university me and my friends smoked dope. We smoked loads. We inhaled deep, held our breath as long as we could and got super stoned. When my new girlfriend joined the group she had never smoked before and didn't know what to expect. She smoked with us for 2 years before we realised that in all that time she had never got stoned once. Why? because she didn't know you had to inhale! She took the smoke in her mouth and held her breath. She thought she was getting stoned because what she was doing had a very mild effect which for her was noticeable.
And just like Mark, I'm a big computer geek gadget freak. I ticked every single option the Eos offered me. Cornering headlights? Of course I want that! I don't need to research it. After all, Mercs and BMWs have them and the technology sounds cool - what else is there to know.
Anyway, if the Brand Manager makes me an offer I consider fair I'll go for the new car. Otherwise I might take Norman's advice (BTW awesome post Norman - thanks) and write to the head of VW UK and also get advice from the Conciliation and Arbitration service of the RMIF ( http://www.rmif.co.uk/consumers.aspx?id=0)
On the other hand if I run out of energy I might just give in and accept the refund. It's not worth growing a tumor for a headlight upgrade.
The other option I didn't discuss with the Brand Manager was to give up my Eos immediately and save 4 months worth of depreciation. Of course I'd then be left without a car and I'd have to go and buy something cheap and crappy and then sell it in 4 months.

I'm speaking to the Brand Manager tomorrow - I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks for all your support.
Jason


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_
At university me and my friends smoked dope. We smoked loads. We inhaled deep, held our breath as long as we could and got super stoned. 

Maybe if they would agree to a 1/4 key of premo bud you could just stay high long enough to forget about the Xenons...















But seriously, It is difficult to ascertain if this is a fair offer or not without being familiar with the UK market. But I'm thinking you could try negotiating a 50/50 split on the estimated $4000, since errors were made by both parties.
Kevin











_Modified by just4fun at 6:35 PM 3-26-2007_


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (just4fun)*

I'll take one shot at attempting to drive the canyon road with the Xenons tonight while running a camera (assuming I can persuade the significant other to hold the camera) ...


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: Update 1 (The Fig)*

How I might approach this would be from what all I've read is as follows:
First off, assuming that I wanted my car as ordered I would elect to have a new one built along with the following:
1. An immediate refund of any duplicate charge for heated seats.
2. An immediate refund of the invoiced price of the Xenons
_Edit: Since you said you paid cash that gets you that money back right away removing your concern about an "Interest Free Loan" to the dealer - the four months you took to realize all this you have to eat._
3. A replacement EOS at the original EOS less:
A. The duplicated charge for heated seats
B. The difference between invoice and dealer cost for Xenons
C. A trade-in value of the original EOS minus 1 and 2 above and a depreciated value equal to an equivalent monthly lease payment after subtracting the finance charge multiplied by the number of months in your posession.
4. Nothing for the manual.
Now this proposal, if accepted, gets you the EOS as you wanted. Compensates you for any duplicate charges and removes any profit on the Xenons from the dealer. I hope I didn't miss anything.
The way I typically approach things like this is to aim for what I think is most likely and that becomes my bottom line so to speak. For your aggravation of having to go through this nonsense the dealer should either give you some free service or a credit to be used.
Oh, and this avoids any legal costs and continued aggravation on your part. If I got the above I probably grab it and chalk the rest up to tuition fees for learning a few valuable lessons. If you go the lawyer route I can see at the end of the day you not achieving the results you desire and actually be farther behind.
Again, I say good luck. You seem like a resonable fella given your posts and I'm sure you'll figure out what's best for you.
Craig



_Modified by Roku at 11:02 PM 3-26-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (The Fig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_He basically wants me to pay the depreciation value of the car from Nov 06 (when I received delivery) up until I get the new one, say in July. He will then take the original car and sell it. He gave me a ball park figure of $4000 that I would have to pay. Now, this seems pretty steep to me, and if that was the deal I'd have to just accept a refund for the lights - I simply don't have $4,000. I already spent $56,000 on this car. 

Hi Jason:
That actually sounds like a hell of a good offer to me. Most vehicles depreciate by 30% in their first year - that takes place the day you drive it off the lot. Your MY 2007 Eos will have lower depreciation than average, because it is both a new model and a high demand car - but still, paying $4,000 to drive a $56,000 car for 8 or 9 months is a pretty good deal, that's way below 10%, closer to about 6 or 7% depreciation. So, on the face of it, that sounds like a remarkably good deal... but you will need to get all the fine points of the deal hammered out on paper before the new car arrives (in other words, within the next week or so). You don't want any unpleasant surprises down the road, and you are a novice at car purchasing.
You may be able to refinance the deal such that you don't have to actually fork out $4,000 in banknotes. Perhaps ask about that.

_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_...What I think is fair is that we deduct about $1500 for their part in missing the Xenons, and then another $500 for still not having the manual, the DPF fiasco, terrible service from the dealership (and VW UK) and being double charged for heated seats. And then another $500 for having effectively given the dealer a $1000 interest free loan for what will end up being 8 months, for having to wait another 4 months for the right car, and generally all the grief and agro.... Does that seem unreasonable or greedy to you guys? 

I think it sounds unrealistic, not necessarily unreasonable or greedy. What you are asking for is, figuratively, the equivalent of the case of Krug that I mentioned earlier. You just don't have the negotiating position to successfully press those requests - the compensation for "pain and sorrow", so to speak. Consider also that by asking for $500 compensation in return for giving the dealer a $1,000 loan for 8 months (your words), you are asking for a rate of interest that would make a loan shark blush.







The eventual settlement has to be fair and reasonable to both parties.

_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_...I might take Norman's advice (BTW awesome post Norman - thanks) and write to the head of VW UK and also get advice from the Conciliation and Arbitration service of the RMIF _[Retail Motor Industry Federation]_...

That might actually be the very best way of settling it so far as you are concerned - going to the arbitration service of RMIF. That organization will know both the laws and the business norms within your country, and you could be assured that the judgement you get from the arbitrator would be absolutely neutral. In other words, it would take all the combat and negotiating out of the exercise - something I think you would be glad to see the end of.
If, due to cash flow reasons, you are not interested in the $4,000 payment and swap up to a 2008 car spec'ed the way you want it, perhaps ask the Brand Manager what is final offer for a cash settlement is prior to you taking the matter to arbitration. Be honest with him and tell him that you are considering arbitration as the next step. Once he tells you his final offer, it is quite reasonable for you to ask for a day or two to think about it. You can then decide whether to accept it or proceed to arbitration.

_Quote, originally posted by *The Fig* »_...When my new girlfriend joined the group... She smoked with us for 2 years _[and]_ never got stoned once... because she didn't know you had to inhale! 

I take it that she wasn't studying at Oxford or Cambridge when you met her...








Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Missing Xenon lights fiasco (PanEuropean)*

Here a quick time clip of the 'dance' the Xenons do when you start the car...
 

And here's the best I could get of the lights in action.. It's about 3MB..
 
Click the image to see / download the movie..



_Modified by mark_d_drake at 8:53 PM 3-26-2007_


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (The Fig)*

I hate to say it, but paying approximately 8 months worth of lease payments or the $4000 seems like a reasonable compromise, especially since the depreciation on a 8-month old used Eos should be greater than $4000. Substantially greater. This will create a loss situation against their original profit, perhaps leaving them in a losing position on the sale. You also end up with the vehicle you want (i.e. one with Xenons) and, for $4000, you save a year of depreciation (which is worth less than $4000 to you, since it would be savings on the last year of your ownership, not the first year). It's not perfect - it's a lose-lose situation, but if you want the lights then this is a reasonable compromise.
If this is their best deal, I'd suggest that the dealership is not 100% committed to setting this situation right. I'd say that the dealership could cover at least $1000 of that $4000. $2500 seems a bit steep even with the manual issue and the overcharge on the seats. That's their decision, and offering a reasonable compromise isn't bad. If you agree to this deal, one advantage might be a positive relationship in the future with this dealership. If the relationship isn't important...maybe it's time to return the vehicle, get out of the relationship, and buy an Eos from another dealer. I don't see the benefit for you in that approach, though.
As for finding the $4000, it's probably easier for you and your dealership if you could handle the financing yourself. But if they are willing to finance that amount with no fees on the loan (just interest) then that would certainly be a valuable addition.
I really feel for you and wish that situations like this never happened. You're asking if their offer is reasonable, and it is. Could you do better? Probably...but I think $2500 would be expecting a bit too much. Asking for $2500 might be acceptable if you're negotiating....
Having said all that, I'm curious as to why you're going down the path of getting the Xenons, especially if price is a concern. If you could get refunded the Xenon price, the double-billing charge for the seats, and some consideration for the difficult situation they've put you in, you're getting a fair refund and can move on from this situation. Unless Xenons are something you really need, it's not clear why you're going through this exercise. Hopefully you've asked yourself that question and are happy with the answer - if so, that's great.
Best of luck to you in this difficult situation.


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (The Fig)*

Jason,
Glad to hear you had a good meeting. By taking the depreciation, you are taking the biggest hit and making more money for the dealer. Take a look at the current residuals for an Eos. Because they are in short supply, a dealer can ask a premium for a second hand car. Prices below are for standard cars with no extras (wish mine only cost that!) but the ratio holds true. Figures courtesy of http://www.parkers.co.uk. You could look at Glass's guide http://www.glass.co.uk/uk/en/ which is the dealers 'bible' of second hand prices and you could also look at Autotrader, to see what cars are actually being marked up at so you could be forearmed before you negotiate.
i would have thought a more equitable deal would be for the dealer to sell the car and just cover his costs (he has to prepare it for sale, do admin., cover it for any non-warranty remedial work etc.) and then give you a better than basic trade in. I am sure they must be able to provide costs for all of these elements so it can be made transparent. Don't forget, he made money on the original sale and he will make money on the new sale!

Volkswagen Eos (06 on)
2.0 Sport TDI 2d 2006/56
Average mileage 10,000 miles
Original Price £22,287
Franchised Dealer £23,145
Independent Dealer £22,725
Private Good £21,685
Private Poor £18,765
Part Exchange £20,015
Good luck!


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (Gadgeteer1066)*

First, thanks for the information on the used car pricing - that certainly puts the conversation into a different context. Maybe the right answer is to put the vehicle on consignment with the dealer - with the dealer paying the sales comission to the salesperson as part of their "good faith" compensation?
I do object to the idea that the dealership is making profit on both sales - I do not see how that is the case. If someone adopted a lease whole (or bought the car for $4,000 less than the original sale price) then yes, they are selling two cars and retaining two profits. However, the assumption of an initial depreciation means that they would be _typically_ unlikely to sell the vehicle for an amount close to the lease payment amount - the initial depreciation once its driven off the lot should be much higher than the depreciation in Year 2 or Year 3 of the lease. In effect, they'd lose the profit from the original sale, but yes they'd still get the profit from the second sale (minus all of the costs associated with receiving and delivering a new vehicle!). With the numbers you posted for used Eos sales, it changes the landscape.
It again raises the point - do you really want to continue the relationship with this dealer? If not, you can easily sell the Eos privately and use the money to buy a new Eos from a new dealer.


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## oab97 (Feb 18, 2007)

*Re: Update 1 (neweosowner)*

That's a good idea that hasn't really been explored before. Let me expand on it.
1) Take the xenon option refund from the dealer you're working with now
2) Sell your current Eos private party-to-party. This shouldn't be too hard in a market that by all accounts is short on Eoses. With the sellers market condistion you'll lose less than the $4000 the dealer is asking you to eat.
3) Buy the Eos you really want from a different dealer


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## alpappy (Feb 18, 2007)

My autoelectrician who does many reto fits for out local vw dealer says they can be fitted later all is need is a transformer in ech light If you want his number i can give it to you
alan


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (alpappy)*

Alan:
I think that the process of retrofitting xenon lights to an Eos is more complex than retrofitting xenon lights to a Golf IV or to a Phaeton - both of which I have done in the past.
The wiring harnesses leading to the Eos lights are totally different between halogen and xenon, you need controllers for the swivel function that interface with the CAN (controller area network) bus on the car, you need level sensors in the back of the car, etc. etc.
It's not the kind of project I would want to attempt, and I am a pretty experienced OEM retrofitter.
Michael


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*The Resolution*

Hi Guys, sorry for the long silence. Been a stressful few days.
First, thanks a lot for some great posts. I appreciate all the ideas and opinions and it really helped me stay grounded in my decision making. Also, big thanks to Mark for the video. It was fascinating to see that the Xenons work exactly as I expected and it made me want them all the more! - but I didn't get them in the end. Here's what happened:
I phoned up for some legal advice and even wrote to HonestJohn as Graham suggested. According to UK law, since I discovered the problem within 6 months I was legally entitled to insist that the dealer make good their mistake without having to pay for any wear and tear. However, while I'm due justice I'm not due betterment. Which means I could within my rights insist that the dealer retro fit the Xenons _whatever the cost of that might be_, but I cannot expect the dealer to just build me a new car for nothing. This is what you guys already knew and something I have just learned.
As an engineer I also knew that of course the Xenons _could_ be retro fitted. It's just a question of cost. I also exchanged some messages with Rich from oempl.us about the Xenon retro kit they sell for $4000. He said that it was the full kit with cornering lights and self leveling and everything. So it _is _ possible to do.
Today I met with the Brand Manager again. This was our 3rd meeting. We had already spoken for 4 hours on 2 other occasions. We spent another 2 hours today. He went through the options after having worked out all the figures.
Option 1: They buy back the car for £25k (I bought it for £28.4K) and order me a new one. For me this was a terrible deal, since I bought the Eos to keep for at least 5 or 6 years and then give it to my wife until its death. So paying £3500 depreciation costs after only 4 months sucks. Also there's no way a custom build Eos would arrive sooner than about 6 months the way the market is here right now. This option was rejected immediately.
Then I had an idea from a seed that was planted by some previous posts by WolfsburgerMitFries. I said I'd call it quits if they swapped out my sat nav for the new touchscreen one that's just started appearing in some new VWs in Europe. Apart from the upgraded sat nav functionality, the unit has a proper iPod interface and bluetooth integration. And it looks like the same size and shape as the existing sat nav.
Unfortunately he wouldn't go for it as the units were not available from the parts department yet and he was concerned that it might not be compatible in the Eos (although I think here we can be pretty sure that there will be a way to make to work). Anyway, try as I might I couldn't get him to share my confidence that it would work.
So back to square 1 he offered to refund the Xenons and give me $1500. 
At this point, disappointed about the no-go with the sat nav upgrade and needing a gadget fix (Mark knows what I'm talking about), I pushed hard for the Xenon retro fit. He admitted that yes of course they could be fitted if money was no object but he was concerned about the fact that his mechanics had never done it before and the costs could get out of control. He also pretty much admitted that it was my legal right and I could push for it. But he was so reluctant to go that route that it was clear to me it would lead us to court and falling out. Well I really wanted those Xenons, but my wife has health problems right now and we just didn't need the extra tumors for a set of lights.
Finally, I negotiated compensation of $1500 cash + $1500 worth of car services + some small accessories + the option to buy any other accessories at cost price _including_ the touch screen sat nav when it becomes available, and the Dynaudio parts. (my plan is to upgrade the sat nav and the Dynaudio at the same time). I don't think that's a bad deal.
In addition I made friends with the brand manager of my dealership. He told me that right now VW is making huge efforts to raise their brand image to the level of Audi, MB and BMW, so customer service was really important to them. He wanted to go out of his way to change my understandably negative impression of VW thus far and guaranteed I'd never have cause to complain again, and if I did I should call him personally on his cell. And if I wanted any favours or discounts to let him know.
Anyway all's well that ends well. And I've definitely learned a lot and grown up in the car buying game this past week. Next time I buy a new car I'm checking that pre-build spec myself and when it gets delivered I'm checking every detail before I drive off.
Thanks a million you guys for all the help and support in this thread, and I hope I can help some of you guys in the future.
Jason
P.S. he told me that VW were soon* going to introduce the 1.4 (170PS) TSI engine to the Eos range. (*for some unspecified definition of soon) 
P.P.S hopefully I won't need to write a 3000 word report on every post now


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: The Resolution (The Fig)*

Hi Jason:
I'm really happy to hear that it all worked out to your satisfaction in the end. I think you did an awesome job of gathering information before you went into the meetings with the dealer - not only here on the forum, but also in all the other ways you mentioned.
Now - get ready to have a fun summer with the car! Hope you get some nice weather soon. My best wishes also to your wife for a speedy recovery.
Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: The Resolution (The Fig)*

Jason
I'm glad you managed to get this issue sorted out to the point you can live with.. 
I hope all works out with you wife's health issues soon. 
I seem to remember in an earlier post you mentioned you're on the west coast from time to time, let me know next time you're out here..
-Mark
[Touch screen nav with properly bluetooth and Ipod integration.... Part number please Michael...]


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: The Resolution (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael for your kind words.
As for having fun, there's no question about it. The roof is almost always down - temperature is no object (although I draw the line at hale stones)
J.


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: The Resolution (mark_d_drake)*

Thanks Mark.
And I'll definitely get in touch if I'm out in Los gatos this year (although right now there's a lot of Austin, Texas on my schedule)
And if Michael can't get the part number I can ask my new best friends at my dealership








J.


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

speaking of which, has anybpdy done the retrofit for the eos using the OEMpl.us upgrade?
http://oempl.us/product_info.p...6a82e
I mean, how crazy is the installation, considering the price its nutz to begin with!


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: The Resolution (The Fig)*

Jason,
Sounds like you fared pretty well on the deal, and managed to get closure, congratulations.
Kevin


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## geedee (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Update 1 (Roku)*

Well done Jason.
My wife picked up her new Eos yesterday and is very pleased with it.
No doubt you will look at fitting the Phillips X-treme bulbs now or after reding the rest of this post, maybe not !
In an earlier post I suggest to Jason that he fitted the above bulbs and I am about to do the same but ,I have a problem and wonder if anyone can help.

I have upgraded a previous A3 and my own Merc, but the dealer tells me that it takes over half an hour to fit these. After looking at the holders I can see why. They are completely different from any other fittings that I have seen.
Please remember that we are talking about standard bulb fitting NOT the Xenon's.
The handbook has no diagram at all and says this is a VW service job.
Can anyone tell me where I can find a diagram for this job.
Graham


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (geedee)*

Graham,
What kind of bulb size are u talking about? Is it the H7's? Those are VERY easy to change them.


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: Update 1 (geedee)*

Jason!
Good Choice - take the extra cash and enjoy your EOS in the upcoming Spring´n Summer.
You will not feel the difference.
Btw.:
The Touchscreen NAV (HD, SD, MP3, BT...) has not been released yet.
Even not for the facelifted 756 (Touareg)!
Greetings out of Germany
Freund


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*Re: Update 1 (Freund)*

Hi Freund,
do you have any extra info on the specs of this? Anything online? Any idea when it will become available?
thanks
Jasoi


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## pjgraham86 (Aug 10, 2006)

*Re: Update 1 (The Fig)*

Hi jason
Glad to hear you're happy with the outcome and best wishes for your good lady too.
The sorry tale of my first Eos is detailed a few months back on this forum - like you I got a satisfactory outcome in the end - I'm now enjoying Eos number 2 as Glasgow gets some early spring sun !! 
If you're ever up north of the border let me know.
Cheers
Peter


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## Freund (Jul 3, 2002)

*Re: Update 1 (The Fig)*

The Parts No. should be #3C0.035.680.
The System will be released first in the facelifted Touareg.
Then it will make its apperance in the facelifted Touran.
It should follow for the Golf/ Passat and EOS around 3rd quarter 2007.
I am not aware of a US release date.
Freund








Features known: Harddrive, SD -Card Slot, Touchscreen, 3-D Mapping.....many possible Interfaces....


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## The Fig (Mar 23, 2007)

*RNS 500*

And guess what, it's already been on eBay in Germany for about $1500. Here's a google translation of the page:
http://66.249.93.104/translate...a%3DG 

"English: 
The new RNS 500 looks new and different because of the housing with chrome elements.
The buttons are not like the old RNS-2 units situated below, but are grouped left and right of the display.
Besides the touchscreen operation this unit, produced by Blaupunkt, has also a SD card reader for multi media cards for reading MP3. The unit also plays MP3 CD's.
You can also operate a telephone from the unit (optional). In future, operating the Apple Ipod will also be possible.
Features in short: 
· 
· Touchscreen operation, combined with with direct access buttons 
· MP3 playing from CD 
· SD-card reader for MP3 
· Navigation with 3D view 
· reads DVD navigation maps from Teleatlas (not included) 
· Manufacturer: Blaupunkt 
· Prepared to connect a lot of additional components (Telephone, DAB-Tuner, TV-Tuner analog/DVB-T)
Part number: 3C0.035.680"

No mention of a hard disk though.
It seems from looking at some German forums that it was supposed to have been released already, but there were some technical problems. Some say it will be released in April, others Q3 2007 - who knows?
There is also speculation that the one on eBay was a buggy pre-production version.
Hmm... do we need a new thread for the RNS 500?
Jason


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