# Engine Fault... not quite sure what's going on.



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Going down a steep hill tonight. Been running for 30 mins - all 100% fine.

Was in 2nd gear - had selected it for engine braking. Suddenly got Engine Fault W'shop message - ABS warning light and flashing glowplug symbol. 

Continued to drive fine. Definitely not limping!

Came home and scanned it. First scan had ABS intermittent fault. Cleared all faults. Engine Fault warning in MFD has now gone - but I still had flashing coil. Scanned again and I now have permanent fan fault on the engine. The two relevant scans posted below. Any suggestions as to what to look for next? Still drives fine only with annoying flashing light!

Any help greatly appreciated. 

Thanks

Mike

Wednesday,16,May,2012,20:47:24:37747
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton D1
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58004546 Mileage: 76780km/47708miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGMª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71D464D1

Part No: 070 906 016 B
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGMª5726

No Faults Found
or DTCs not supported by controller
or a communication error occurred

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: None
Part No SW: 09F 927 760 B HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09F 5,0L V10TDI 1202 
Coding: 0001101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA038729

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008646
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927499ED11

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of First Scan


Wednesday,16,May,2012,21:01:00:37747
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton D1
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58004546 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGMª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71D464D1

1 Fault Found:
17075 - Fan 1 Control Circuit 
P0691 - 000 - Short to GND
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 588 /min
Torque: 79.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.22 V
Bin. Bits: 00001100
Temperature: 92.7°C
Duty Cycle: 25.1 %

Readiness: 0 0 X X X 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: None
Part No SW: 09F 927 760 B HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09F 5,0L V10TDI 1202 
Coding: 0001101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA038729

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008646
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927499ED11

No fault code found.


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## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

Not the old air mass meter is it Mike?

Tim


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Suspect not... I'm inclined to think it's some electrical wiring problem given I now seem to have a permanent fan fault... but who knows.... not I. But I bet there some expert here who can scare me with likely cost to fix.....!

Regards

M


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

I have just googled fault code P0691 and I came across this: 

_*Fan 1 Control Circuit Low*_
_What does this mean?_
OBD Code P0691refers to 
The Front Control Module (FCM) has detected a short to ground in the cooling fan relay 1 control circuit 
_Symptoms_
Possible sumptoms of OBD code P0691
- Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light) - Radiator fan inoperative - Possible engine overheating 
_Causes_
Possible causes of OBD code P0691
- Open or short cooling fan 1 relay circuit - Faulty low speed radiator fan relay - Faulty FCM 

I hope it helps.

Gabriel


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Gabriel- thanks for that. I realise that that is unlikely to be the problem as that fault has been there as long as I've had the car.... which is only 5 months. So on the basis of what you've found on Google it needs fixing... it has not before caused the flahsing coil symbol.

I'll do another complete scan tonight or at the weekend and check there's nothing else causing it.
thanks

Mike


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Mike,

A flashing glowplug lamp on the dash is used to indicate accelerator pedal signal failure (not sure of this informational logic!), although the SSP says that engine speed will then be fixed at a fast idle, enough to drive at a slow speed.

Also, was the scan OK on the 2nd engine controller, address 11?

The fans are triggered by engine controller 1 and the glowplugs are triggered by both engine controllers 1 and 2.

Your ABS controller complained it was missing communications from engine controller 1.

If a radiator fan fails the car won't run, according to the SSP.

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Chris - thanks. I'm clearly a bit dopy... had my V6 head on. Forgot to check the second engine controller - and low and behold:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGSª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71D464D1

1 Fault Found:
18011 - Internal Control Module 
P1603 - 000 - Failed Self-Test - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2394 /min
Torque: 55.3 Nm
Speed: 44.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.60 V
Bin. Bits: 01101111
Torque: 521.4 Nm
Torque: 0.0 Nm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So - I reset this... which was a struggle. Took me about 8 attempts before VCDS would actually talk the the controller and reset the fault codes. Any idea why this should be so hard? Dodgy controller?

Took the motor for a 12 mile spin, finishing off with the 2nd gear overrun descent down the 1:4 into the village. No problems. 

So... what was it. Some sort of electronic glitch that affected comms between more than one controller?

Any ideas gratefully received.

Anybody want to start a book on how long before it does it again??

Regards

M

ps - need to get the fan controller fixed before summer...


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Well, you seem to be homing in!

So far I've found that controllers don't lie, so if #2 failed Self-Test for a reason other than (a) it didn't have enough Power Supply volts or (b) was somehow being kept too busy to complete the test doing something else more important, then - well, it failed!

Maybe its possible for the #1 controller to be faulty and hammer the bus between #1 and #2 in such a way that #2 is swamped and gets hypochondria?

I just read in the SSP that it's not permitted to swap the physically identical controllers 1 to 2 and vice versa, because at new they set themselves up to match the position they first get plugged in, one time only. But maybe a used one could be wiped somehow if we knew the security code.

Chris


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## caseyzoo1 (May 18, 2012)

*ABS Fault*

I had something similar with my Phaeton- I kept getting the fault workshop and an ABS warning- My VW was certified and the problem stumped the service department. The contacted VW in Germany and were told to replace the ABS pump. The problem kept coming back- Then they changed the computer, still had the same problem. After thousands of dollar (That I did not have to pay) the found that the problem was a faulty break light switch on the break pedal. It also cause a "level fault" can stopped the auto leveling system on the car sometimes. Good luck...


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks Guys. Anyone know location of controllers, easy of swap out, cost etc??

Thanks

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

They are in the plenum chamber. List is £1200 each, but used they are around £150 - £275.

I think there must be a special adaptation procedure to change them unless they have never been used, as there are reports in the forum that a simple swap out just doesn't run. As far as I know the part numbers are 070 906 016B or 070 906 016CM depending on the car's VIN.

Here's the first one: link 1

Here's the second one: link 2

(links only valid a few days from time of my posting)

Cheers,
Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

£1200 each - that's quite eye watering...

And in the plenum chamber... that seems an odd place....

I'll see how it goes for a bit. Need to think about what is likely to be the root cause here... 

And why was it so hard to communicate with it via VDCS... maybe it is in its death throes....


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Mike,

Well, at least your voltage looks OK. 
Did you ever use the self-test function before? I say this because in case you cannot control your curiosity (just like me), then you might want to do the self test of controller 11. A number of items are tested one by one, which you activate one by one in a predetermined sequence. For instance the fans, pumps, the secondary air pump, etc., all of these mechatronic components are tested one by one, each time you press next and "activate".
Some time ago, I ran the self-test on my own engine. It is interesting to see (or hear) that everything is actually working. For instance, perhaps the fifth test in the sequence, both fans are operated one after the other, allowing you to verify that they work. 
Please make sure that engine is NOT running and the ignition must of course be on(I don't think that the self test otherwise would start anyway). As usual, the battery charger needs to be connected to compensate for the high power consumption of the fans and pumps.

Willem


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

WillemBal said:


> As usual, the battery charger needs to be connected to compensate for the high power consumption of the fans and pumps


Or you have a nice new battery in a good state of charge!

Good idea - I might well try it.

Maybe.... Does it test each injector too?

Regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Or you have a nice new battery in a good state of charge!


Ummm - that's not really the solution, because the car's systems draw too much current to last very long under test without a service charger connected or the engine running. You usually see Phaetons in the dealer workshop with the trunk open and an official battery maintainer attached (or should do!)

Otherwise the customer gets tetchy when half the car's controllers play up over the next few days or, like mine, get returned with numerous spurious faults on the scan... 

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

You're probably right... although I know from experience that the drain at these times exceeds the current output of my maintainer. My CTEK will only provide 7A. When I've been scanning etc in the past with a sick battery, the maintainer hasn't been able to provide enough support to stop the volts sinking to too low a level. I probably managed all my scans of the last few days - maybe 20 minutes of messing about with no support for the LH battery... although it is only a few weeks old and gets usually an hour's run 4 days a week.

regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Good point, sorry to state stuff you already have fully under control! (apart from that 40-amp maintainer on a tractor trolley!)

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> sorry to state stuff you already have fully under control!


Apology not required. Who was it who only checked one of his engine controllers? 

Never assume I'm in control of anything... if I was in control of myself would I have two Phaetons?? Wouldn't be so bad if Mrs Kay would drive one and we could have a family convoy... but it's too big and scary...

Thanks for your help - it has been very useful so far... and I now know a lot more about the arcane wonders of the V10. Are the controllers really in the plenum chamber... and do I have two plenums? one for each bank?

Regards

M


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

n968412L said:


> Or you have a nice new battery in a good state of charge! ... Does it test each injector too?


You are right, my battery seems remarkably good, given the fact I used a small charger of only 5 Amps. 
During the self test, all components are tested one by one, and you can choose how long each test takes. I tested 4 different controllers within 30 minutes, so with a healthy battery, it is no problem.

The ECM test is quite interesting, because you can actually hear the typical noise that each component makes when tested. The injectors are operated one by one as well (the ones that are connected to the controller being tested. You can hear the clicking noise of the solenoids as there are no other noises, like the engine, to interfere.

Willem


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Well - having reset all the fault codes.. I've now done 60 miles and had no trouble... have I got away with it..... or am I just living on borrowed time...??


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I often wonder what goes on in the mind of an ECU on a steep hill during heavy engine braking. Large negative torque demand, relatively high vehicle speed, high engine revs, high oxygen in the catalytic converter, zero fuel consumption, high inlet vacuum - they never told us about this in ECU School! Help, I don't have a good solid map for this!

_Warning, Will Robinson_!! Oops, ECU just had an internal accident, where's the owner with that VCDS?!

Sorry, been watching too many fantasy TV programs. 

Chris


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Isn't it "Danger! Will Robinson, danger!"


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

You are right! I think I was getting _Lost In Space_ mixed up with Phaeton Marketing. 










image (c) 20th Century Fox


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I think the one in black is the service engineer...


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

Prince Ludwig said:


> I think the one in black is the service engineer...


...and the one to his right is a re-skinned VAS 5051.

Adam


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> I often wonder what goes on in the mind of an ECU on a steep hill during heavy engine braking. Large negative torque demand, relatively high vehicle speed, high engine revs, high oxygen in the catalytic converter, zero fuel consumption, high inlet vacuum - they never told us about this in ECU School! Help, I don't have a good solid map for this!


Yes.... good thought. but holding the descent on a 1:4 to about 30 mph doesn't sound that onerous...I even dab the brake sometimes... and the V6 has been doing it without complaing for 3 years... so the V10 had better learn to do it too! It's done the descent twice since having all its faults cleared without further fuss...

I'll keep you posted. In fact - if it does it again I won't be able to stop myself sharing my misery with you all.

Regards

M


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> You are right! I think I was getting _Lost In Space_ mixed up with Phaeton Marketing.


Lost on me guys - I suspect I'm rather too young to understand these references to B&W television...

Regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> I suspect I'm rather too young to understand these references to B&W television...


Hey, at least the photo was in Technicolor! Anyone else remember watching the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II at home? My Dad bought his first TV in 1937.

I'll shut up now and continue researching ECU CAN-bus glitches. 

CB


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Paximus said:


> My Dad bought his first TV in 1937.


Ghee, I love this thread! Makes me feel VERY, VERY young!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Paradoxically, me too! (And Dad is 95...)


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

six weeks; 1300 miles and no re-occurence... just a one of glitch..... 
We'll see.

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Fingers crossed!


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Here's a new one.....

After having done about 20 miles this AM, parked up for a bit. Set off again and ... no power. Couldn't do more than 50 mph. Stopped. Key out. Started again - and drove as though nothing had happened. Perfect again. 

No engine lights... no other indication. This is the scan:

Friday,06,July,2012,18:55:44:37747
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton D1
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 15 16 17 18 19 29 34 36 37 38 39
46 47 57 68 71 76

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58004546 Mileage: 78760km/48939miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGMª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71D464D1

2 Faults Found:
17075 - Fan 1 Control Circuit 
P0691 - 000 - Short to GND
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 588 /min
Torque: 79.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.22 V
Bin. Bits: 00001100
Temperature: 92.7°C
Duty Cycle: 25.1 %

18360 - Turbocharger Control Module 1 
P1952 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2688 /min
Torque: 624.1 Nm
Speed: 71.4 km/h
Load: 59.2 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 2029.8 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2590.8 mbar

Readiness: 0 0 X X X 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grateful for advice etc. I have seen other posts about this I think... but hope the active V10 experts on the forum can respond (when they've stopped laughing.....)

Thanks

mike


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

n968412L said:


> Here's a new one.....
> 
> After having done about 20 miles this AM, parked up for a bit. Set off again and ... no power. Couldn't do more than 50 mph. Stopped. Key out. Started again - and drove as though nothing had happened. Perfect again.
> 
> ...


OK! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Chris has got what seems like a terminal fault with one of his controllers, I had the same issue as you (and Chris), I lubed and wiggled the actuator arms for the turbos (VERY CAREFULLY as you can damage the controller further if not careful).

I have had NO re-occurrence of this fault since (again fingers crossed).

I can only wish you luck really, perhaps someone could check and see if the turbo controllers are the same a the 5 cyl turbo? (there are many parts interchangeable between the 5 cyl and the V10) as I believe the V10 is two 5 cyls stuck together!!

Turbo controllers are NOT available separately afaik but I am on a mission!!!

Good luck Mike

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I think we need a new club: TF for Turbo 'Failure' (or similar) 

18360 - Turbocharger Control Module 1 
P1952 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent

Here's my story so far... V10 Turbo(s) cutting out

Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> I think we need a new club: TF for Turbo 'Failure' (or similar)
> 
> 18360 - Turbocharger Control Module 1
> P1952 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
> ...


Guys,

on a more serious note, mine don't REALLY need replacing, but, I believe in being pre-emptive!

Steven has found a dealer with a decent rate in a nice location. (La Rochelle is close by and was pretty last time I was there), couldn't we perhaps try and bully the dealer into a really good deal?

I reckon they could do three or four Phaeton in a week plus loan cars, we could also throw in a token "service" as a sweetener?

By the way if Harry is reading this, don't tell him that there are reliability issues with the V10 (mine are fine, honestly)

Stu


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Stu and Chris - thanks for the info. I remember the thread fairly clearly... and also remember wondering how the hell I was going to get underneath to waggle my bits.....

I'll let you know how I get on.... ie ignoring it and seeing when it comes back....

Regards

M


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

n968412L said:


> Stu and Chris - thanks for the info. I remember the thread fairly clearly... and also remember wondering how the hell I was going to get underneath to waggle my bits.....
> 
> I'll let you know how I get on.... ie ignoring it and seeing when it comes back....
> 
> ...


Sounds like a plan.........................

Stu


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Just found that there errors from both turbo controllers... again too numb to remember to check both... 

Is this the case for you two too? I got the impression that Chris's was only one turbo controller...

Regards

M


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGSª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71D464D1

1 Fault Found:
18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2 
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2688 /min
Torque: 624.1 Nm
Speed: 71.4 km/h
Load: 59.2 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 2029.8 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2590.8 mbar


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

n968412L said:


> Just found that there errors from both turbo controllers... again too numb to remember to check both...
> 
> Is this the case for you two too? I got the impression that Chris's was only one turbo controller...
> 
> ...


Mike,

very suspicious that both controllers are showing faults, I only showed the one, then nursed it for a while until I found some answers (Touareg Forums).

As I mentioned to Chris, the turbo controllers can be "bizarre" but can (and often do) right themselves. In my case they have - in Chris's case not.

WE need to address the controller issues, VW really do need to make this part available. (ARE YOU READING THIS VW, IF NOT I WILL FORWARD THIS TO YOU)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stu

PS Harry we have NO RELIABILITY ISSUES.......................................


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

EnglishPhaeton said:


> PS Harry we have NO RELIABILITY ISSUES.......................................


All my problems... all of them... have only occurred since I let Harry drive my car....

regards

M


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

n968412L said:


> All my problems... all of them... have only occurred since I let Harry drive my car....
> 
> regards
> 
> M


MUPPET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He did it on purpose, 

don't trust them Southerners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harry, I can't believe you did that :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Stu


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Yes, the smiley/friendly routine was all a facade to lure you Northern nasties in. While replacing Mike's battery I made sure the screwdriver "slipped"...

H


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm well south of London, so I'd better not drive ANYONE's car... 

The turbo fault is logged after any one event, so it may be that each side only records the fault very occasionally, and lubricating the linkages will fix it. The Tech needs flexible arms like an octopus and eyes on stalks to do this.

I might raise it with VW, when I get the car back from warranty re-paint (4 x doors).

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> The turbo fault is logged after any one event, so it may be that each side only records the fault very occasionally, and lubricating the linkages will fix it.


Nice thought Chris... but I'm not sure... I've scanned the car regularly recently... and no turbo controller failures have been hanging around....

Thinking about it, this actually happened just after I'd set off with a warm engine. I had a little bit of trouble with a white van man.. and had to put him in his place... which I did with no trouble, and then was pottering onto the M65 when I realised that I was struggling to match the traffic speed. All this within 0.5 mile of starting.

I'll keep you all posted. Got to keep Stu amused.....


M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

With mine, it was reported to me the very first time during (literally) a main dealer service - coincidence?

Then for a few weeks it ran for an hour or two OK, then tripped after the first restart. A second restart was OK for the rest of the day.

Now it happens at the start of almost every run, I have to stop after 1 mile and restart, then it's usually OK for the rest of the trip. Occasionally it runs OK from cold, then happens later in the day.

I'm toying with replacing the Hella motor/controller (€300 for an exchange 'refurb' - is that a quick squirt of WD40 ???) but it could be that it's the turbo arm that is stiff and I'd waste the money. I can't think of a way to find out.

Also, the motor/controller and turbocharger are calibrated as a pair by Garrett, so I don't know what effect it would have to substitute a different motor.

That should keep Stu well and truly amused! 

Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Chris and Mike,

lets talk "amused".............

My wife has me fitting a new kitchen, and laundry, my favourite car is in pieces, I have just had to book my mother in law into a 5* hotel in Harrogate so she can visit us, (apparently the others are 'sub standard') so, yes, lets have a go at Stu, just because I laugh in the face of adversity.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Stu

ps :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Here's a photo of my Phaeton not being on the drive today because it's selfishly taken itself off for 3 weeks to enjoy a makeover. Surely that's worse than having to fit a kitchen?!

You can see that no M-i-L's could make it across the moat either...


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Here's a photo of my Phaeton not being on the drive today because it's selfishly taken itself off for 3 weeks to enjoy a makeover. Surely that's worse than having to fit a kitchen?!
> 
> You can see that no M-i-L's could make it across the moat either...


Ouch!

my plumbing may have a similar effect! Imagine the effect on your Kessy with that little puddle!

However we fortunately live at the top of a hill!!

Hope the weather improves soon Chris.

Stu


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

14 months on... exactly the same problem at the same position on the same hill. Weather conditions quite different.... very hot today. Raining last time.

Steep descent - about 1:4, locked down in second gear. About 2800 rpm. And all to minimize the brake dust being deposited on my nice clean wheels...

Gong... level fault - workshop; engine fault - workshop. Lots of flashing lights... flashing glowplug, traction control (and I think one other). And PRNDS all lit up.

So, stopped and went through engine reboot. All cleared bar the flashing glow plug.

Drove home. Engine still pulling like a train. Scanned straightaway... except I can't scan it. Can open some controllers, but VCDS locks up or reports contollers cant be contacted. Tried for about 15 minutes and gave up.

Came back two hours later. Scans fine now (important bits below - I think I cleared a fault in the TX when trying to make contact initially) - and all fault codes reset.

I'll be doing the same journey tomorrow... I bet it will be OK!

Any thoughts, you wise audience??

Thanks

M

Saturday,13,July,2013,15:10:10:37747
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.6
Data version: 20121223



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Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton


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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

Water running into electronics when you are on a slope (under carpet)???

Graham


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Mike,
It seems that there is a communication fault between the engine control modules and some other modules.
Couldn't it be, that as the engine is reving at 2310rpm and you were engine braking, that due to vibrations some terminals or wires of the engine wiring harness were making false contacts? It is very peculiar that it happens only under those conditions.

Gabriel


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. Graham's advice would be good save it's been dry here for weeks... I know water can exist for a long time in hidden places.. but I'll be very surprised.

Gabriel - I assume it is something like this.

The other odd thing is that when I scanned it two hours after the incident... it has never scanned so easily... it's always been a bit recalcitrant...but this afternoon it was a breeze.

It'll probably recur... but I wonder when....

Regards

M


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Just repeated the journey. 40 miles, with the 1:4 descent into my home village. All worked perfectly. I tried to recreate exactly what I did (and I actually do it about three times a week anyway)... and nothing.

I hope I don't post here again before another 14 months elapses....

Regards

M


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

That sounds really odd Mike.
Can you correlate the fault ocurrence to the instances when your Phaeton is recalcitrant to be scanned?

Gabriel


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> That sounds really odd Mike.
> Can you correlate the fault ocurrence to the instances when your Phaeton is recalcitrant to be scanned?
> 
> Gabriel


Not yet. In spite of being a bit odd, I don't try and scan the car every single day... in fact on average it's probably less than once a month... and even then when prompted by something.

The V10 has always been hard to scan... with comms failures. But not yesterday two hours after ECU meltdown... If it had been easy to scan immediately I could have associated with something that's been on the edge of breaking for a while and has finally failed... but that MO doesn't fit either.

I guess I'll have to keep monitoring it over a period. 

As an aside I'm hacked off at how I've got to keep amending the text file in VCDS to avoid it scanning non-existent controllers... it gets overwritten every time VCDS updates... must make a mental note to save a copy! Annoys me every time it happens, pointing out to me that I can't afford a fully loaded W12....

Regards

M


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

n968412L said:


> The V10 has always been hard to scan... with comms failures. But not yesterday two hours after ECU meltdown... If it had been easy to scan immediately I could have associated with something that's been on the edge of breaking for a while and has finally failed... but that MO doesn't fit either.
> 
> M


 My thought was just the other way round. I would have associated the faults to the car being difficult to scan, and trouble free if it could be easily scanned.
If it was like that it might well be that there were some communication difficuties within the control units that led to all that series of warning lights coming on.

Gabriel


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> My thought was just the other way round. I would have associated the faults to the car being difficult to scan, and trouble free if it could be easily scanned.
> If it was like that it might well be that there were some communication difficuties within the control units that led to all that series of warning lights coming on.
> 
> Gabriel


I think we're saying the same thing.. I think. My logic was... car hard to scan (always!!) - some problem with the bus comms. Serious one off short lived issue - such as a piece of hardware finally frying itslef and going open circuit... then followed by faultless operation. But it wasn't like this. after the problem - which actually cleared itself instantaneously or the car wouldn't have remained so responsive etc - comms was still very hard. But then two hours later it was OK. Of course we don't know if the bus comms was working just about OK for that two hours then got better too. I wonder if the gateway controller has measuring blocks in it that would help... I really have no idea how the comms works VAG cars.... yet. I might be about to learn more... is there a SSP for it?? Or maybe I have it... SSP 304 Electronic Diesel Control EDC16... maybe I'd better read it!

Regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Mike,

These symptoms should add up to a clear pattern, but probably only after you find the problem - that's natural English pessimism!

Here's my take on the scan, disregarding the door mirror lights and mirror adjustment:


*Scan*

ECU2 reported loss of its expected RPM signal from ECU1 occurring at '1100rpm' (it had no data update) with 624Nm torque at 0% load at 27mph with 13.53V power supply. (a) That was during engine braking (b) it was not caused by a system-wide low power supply voltage.

ECU2 reported loss of comms with ECU1 at 2300rpm and 0 Nm torque, 13.6V and 27mph. Again, during engine braking with no power supply dip at ECU2.

ECU1 failed self-test two or three times. The freeze frame results from VCDS are not as clear as the VAG ones, but it seems to be saying that 2300 rpm was involved, also 497.7 & 55.3Nm torque and 13.15V power supply. One interpretation is that one event was caused by it losing power during engine braking which triggered a reboot/self test cycle. But that is guesswork, the low voltage/low torque one could be during start-up. However, it's still a failure, possibly still caused by a short interruption to its power supply.

ABS reported unspecified occasional loss of communication with ECU1. This could trigger the 'level fault workshop' message and TCS light. The ABS does not talk direct to ECU2, so we can't check which end of the link is the culprit by looking at ECU2's log.

CAN Gateway reports intermittent comms failure with ECU1.

ECU1 reported two faults in sequence during start-up as the power supply voltage was rising. Not known if this was during one start-up event or spaced out over two start-ups:
-- G62 engine temperature sensor voltage too high (does it mean open circuit with an internal pull-up?) with 13.30V power supply. Not reported as intermittent.
-- Fan1 no voltage at 13.38V power supply, not reported as intermittent.

If the ECU thinks a fan is faulty it has implications for what it may or may not let the engine do in relation to heat generation (according to the SSP). That does not seem relevant here, though.


*Interpretation*

It has the appearance of either a power interruption to ECU1 (but not to ECU2) causing it to re-start, including a self-test which it failed due to the engine already being running, or another cause which made it think it was confused and caused it to trigger a self-test and restart.

I speculate that this other cause could be disruption on its CAN-bus with more than a pre-programmed number of data faults.

There is a known fault on the ABS*/ECU1 comms link to do with plug pin corrosion at the ABS* unit caused by defective grommets, so that the plug covers do not make a good seal. Erwin has TPI 2021809/4, released 3rd Feb 2011. It could be worth a look. They suggest installing an adapter cable loom if corrosion is found.

[*Edit - I misread the controllers and plugs affected - it actually refers to the ACC control unit, the Brake Servo control unit and the Brake Servo unit. This sounds a little generic to me. I hope there aren't any others.]

Regarding poor VCDS response, CAN-bus disruption could cause poor results form a diagnostics connection, although I would have thought that the Gateway that does the work would have sorted it out. Maybe that's a clue in itself to your intermittent problem - the Gateway is involved in both the ECU comms and the Diagnostic comms.


Cheers,
Chris


PS - Probably of no relevance here but still interesting, also referred to in that document is a revised plastic cover for the electronics box in the plenum chamber, since the old cover is known to leak if not clipped on with cable ties. The new part (new for 2010) is part no. 3D0 907 299A, it's quite cheap.



*ACC Unit plugs can corrode*










*Example plugs affected*


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Chris - thanks for your diagnostic skills. I think I'd come to something like the same thought.. but not quite as well articulated. I hadn't actually thought of corrosion... but it's now feels very likely.

I was mistaken when I posted yesterday I thought the rpm was 2800 - it was more like 2200 - and the ECU's both state 2310 and 23 mph - which would be about right.

To be clear the pictures you appended are of the ABS controller, not engine controllers? I guess I should have a look at them. I know they're in the plenum chamber... but not quite sure how to get at them... any advice there? Can I unplug them with impunity with the ignition off? I would have thought I could....?

how can I track down a copy of the TPI?

Thanks again for your illuminating post.

Regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I agree, there was nothing in my post that you hadn't already thought, but my brain works slowly so I wrote the thought process down and it seemed a shame to waste it!

I have to apologise about the 'ABS' plugs - I read the TPI too quickly - it is very confusing but I think it refers to the ACC control unit plugs, the Brake Servo plugs and the Brake Servo Control Unit plugs, not the ABS unit. I didn't post the TPI because it was personalised for my car VIN and plastered with copyright notices, but I'll PM you a copy and see what you make of it. 

Meanwhile I'll edit my post above. I am now worried that they are referring to virtually any plugs of that series, so I wonder how many there are?

Chris


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## gary4seats (Jun 29, 2013)

*glowplug warning light*

chris i noted you have or maybe had the v10 i have the glowplug warning light on but i suspect it means some thing else like maf sensor or throttle communication fault i replaced the vps battery and it still flashes whilst driving any ideas what it is there does not seem to be any driving problems 
many thanks gary


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> i have the glowplug warning light on but i suspect it means some thing else like maf sensor or throttle communication fault i replaced the vps battery and it still flashes whilst driving any ideas what it is there does not seem to be any driving problems


 Hi Gary, 

Yes, I too have a V10. 

We really need a scan to see what your car is saying about itself. The flashing coil light is reckoned to warn that a DTC has been logged by one of the engine ECUs. 

I have heard of a flashing glowplug lamp in connection with a faulty brake light switch or excess water in the fuel filter, although for some reason it rarely seems to indicate a glowplug problem! Of course, it could mean just that. 

The MAF sensors are easy to change on a V10, and the Pierburg ones are cheaper and in my view just as good as the Bosch OEM. 

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

I think on the V10 the glow plug symbol is also the CEL or MIL (check engine light or Malfunction Indicator Light... I think). I'm away from home right now so can't check - but I don't think there is a separate MIL light. So flashing glow plug means any number of things. Interestingly, as the V10 has two ECUs... I think the master ECU will create the MFD display about needing the workshop... but both will make the glow plug flash. In other words, don't forget to clear faults from both ECUs! 

Another strange electrical gremlin .. well two of them. 

After about 10k miles the long term mileage stats reset themselves to zero. Just as though you'd pressed the reset button (or taken the LH battery out). Did this about 1k miles ago... only just got round to writing about it. And yesterday... the cruise control wouldn't work. Worked for a bit, but then stopped working. The light was on... but it wouldn't set and hold a speed. The ignition cycle trick cleared it and I don't expect it to re-occur.... 

Regards 

M


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

54 weeks later and about 7k miles... same symptoms... descending hill in low gear. This time much shallower gradient -but going quite a bit faster... probably around 40 mph in third I think... will check the scans soon. Only got ABS and engine lights this time. All reset easily (I think... 50 miles tomorrow should prove it).

I'd better read back up this thread and look at all the suggested sensible diagnostics I failed to do last year.....

slight heart stopping... but not as much as in May 2012! ie the first time it happened.

M


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