# Wobble bolts, Wobble nuts, Stud conversions, and Spacers...



## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

(I posted the same thing in the MKV and MKIV Golf forum as I believe they also share the same hardward in question as our A3's to hopefully get more answers here)

Before I start, I will say that I've done a lot of reading in regard to the subject, so opinions not based in fact like, "I don't know but they just seem unsafe" won't really help me or anyone else out. My hope is that I can learn, and hopefully others can too, from people who are experienced and/or knowledgeable in regard to this subject, and hopefully put some questions to rest. From what I understand, a more proper term for wobble bolts would be variable PCD bolts, but I will use the term wobble bolts as that seems to be what people on the forums refer to them as more often.


My ideal plan would be to run a safe stud conversion on my car that uses M12 diameter studs in order to use any 5x112 wheel I wanted as well as have the option to run a 5x114.3 wheel safely
Pros
- wide variety of wheel options available (Japanese and Euro)
- wide variety of lug nut options at the M12 size 
- with long studs I can use whatever spacers I want (within reason) and can just thread on the same lugs (using conical to ball seat washers if necessary)


*After much research, my understanding is that the slightly smaller diameter M12 studs allows the amount of room necessary to put on a 5x114.3 wheel even though our cars are 5x112, and that using wobble nuts (similar to wobble bolts) and proper hub centric rings at our cars 57.1mm centerbore, the wheels would seat properly and safely (assuming all the parts used were of high quality). If I'm thinking correctly, I am also led to believe that I would be able to run spacers with this setup as long as I still have the proper length studs so that the lug nuts can have enough thread to grab and that the nuts were torqued to the appropriate force. * This is my conclusion from research that I want confirmed/clarified/denied based on others' knowledge. 

I have read that it isn't safe to use wobble bolts with spacers while using 5x114.3 wheels (or any other potential combo within the wobble bolt's variable range), but the only reason I have read about was because the wobble bolts were only available in a length that our cars can use similar to the factory lug bolts (27 or 28mm I believe). A few people mentioned that Raderworks said not to use wobble bolts with wheel spacers, but I didn't see any reason why other than the length of the wobble bolts offered were insufficient. So theoretically, longer wheel bolts would mean that one could run spacers with wobble bolts as long as the wobble bolts were sized to match the spacers as with any other spacer/wheel bolt combo (correct me if I'm wrong). Because I would like to use wheel studs rather than wheel bolts for many reasons, I would assume that it would work the same. As long as my wheel studs were long enough, I would think I could use open ended wobble nuts (in case the studs were too long and needed to protrude out the top of the nut as with stock or higher offset wheels) in the same way as the wobble bolts would work while running a 5x114.3 wheel in order to have the nuts properly seated and have a safe setup. Then I could still switch back to stock wheels using ball seat nuts in the winter and then to cone seat nuts or wobble nuts and spacers in the summer with either 5x112 or 5x114.3 wheels safely.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...onversion&highlight=diy+wheel+stud+conversion has been my favourite stud conversion so far as there would be no risk of them backing out like a thread in stud could. The only downside is there are only in 7/16" diameter rather than M12, so my lug nut options are extremely limited here, and wobble nuts would probably be completely out of the question. The OP in the link used 5x114.3 wheels later on (post #27) but I think there would be too much stress put on the studs. See pictures...



















So I made a third image showing what I think would be proper seating using wobble nuts. But that lead me to my next question which would be whether wobble nuts are safe to use on studs like this with spacers. Again, I've read in a couple places that it _isn't_ recommended to use spacers with wobble bolts ( here's one http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-bolts-Spacers&highlight=wobble+bolts+spacers), but I didn't gather any cohesive information as to why, so my curiosity is still peaked here! The next image shows what I would assume would be a proper setup using the press in ARP studs and wobble nuts.










Can anyone tell me or point me to whether I can use spacers safely with this setup? 

I've written APR to see if there is another version of the press in wheel studs that Big~Kenny used in the link I posted above that uses an M12 sized stud (rather than the OP's 7/16" version) for added strength/peace of mind and the ability to use wobble nuts and more lug nut options in general (I haven't found any wobble nuts in 7/16" at all). I am currently waiting to hear back so I can post an update then. Anyone who can help me out or improve my education, please do!


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## MisterJJ (Jul 28, 2005)

Wobble bolts/nuts are less safe... no matter what. You are thinking that the bolts/nuts only purpose is to hold the wheel in place, but they also counter all the torque. Imagine when you slam on the brakes... You've got a ton and a half of weight that is trying to be stopped by your spinning wheels. So now imagine that your disc brake is stopped but there is 1 1/2 tons of weight pushing your wheels and the only thing stopping them from spinning is the bolts holding it to the car. Add in ABS and you're basically pounding against these bolts with 1 1/2 tons of weight. Now, with normal bolts this force is applied evenly to the center of the bolts and they can withstand it. As soon as you "wobble" anything, you are applying this load off-center and adding in all sorts of additional forces. It's kinda like this:

Normal bolt pressing against edge of hole in wheel: --> O)
Wobble bolt or nut pressing against edge of hole in wheel: --> o)

So instead of curve meeting curve and distributing the force evenly, you are applying the force to the side of the curve and the bolt/stud wants to push into the center of the curve and has a lot of leverage to do so, putting much greater strain on the components. Now... these components may be stronger and be able to handle it. The additional forces may not be significant enough to matter. And your life and others may be put at risk by using them.

But that is my opinion. Without doing a good FEA, I could not give a definitive answer.


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

MisterJJ, I appreciate your response. I am still unsure about variation nuts/bolts (wobble bolts), but I did gain some insight on the main purposes of lug nuts/bolts which seem to differ slightly from what you've written and helped clarify a few things for me that I didn't know. Here is some info. from what I read.

Sources:
http://www.meaforensic.com/wheel-se...metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic
http://www.croberts.com/Automotive-wheel-detachment.htm

If I'm understanding things correctly, here is my synopsis of what these and other articles have said. 

Although very informative, I am still not totally sure of my answer yet in regard to wobble nuts/wobble bolts, but feel that I have a better idea now. It seems that the main determining factor for the dangerous situation that people seem to talk about but never specify, is a lack of clamping force to sandwich the rim to the (spacer)/brake and the hub that the wheel studs are attached to. Based on these articles, it's more clear to me how the friction from the sandwiched wheel/(spacer)/brake/hub components are what take the force of accelerating, braking, etc. rather than the lug bolts or lug nuts. This makes sense as the threads on the lug bolts or studs after hard driving would be marred and mangled, but after hard driving they remain in good shape. The lug bolts/nuts only job is to create enough clamping force in a horizontal direction (or the same direction they are screwed in) with the proper factory specified torque they were engineered to work at, in order to clamp the wheel/(spacer)/brake/hub together. I would also assume that they take some of the force when turning as well, but it seems this is less of the issue compared to just coming loose going in a straight line due to improper torquing or failed/compromised lug nuts/bolts/studs.

Based on the articles, it seems the most common times that wheel separation from a car happens due to:

*Improper torquing of lug nuts or lug bolts* 
-Over tightening stretches/stresses the bolts or studs which can cause failure
-Under tightening means there isn't enough friction between the wheel/brake/hub or spacer if also used causing the weight of the car to sit more on the lug bolts or studs causing failure

*Running aftermarket lug centric wheels or not using properly sized centering rings* on a car designed to be hub centric causing the weight of the car to deform the rim stud/bolt holes which leads to loosening and failure
-MisterJJ, this seems to be more of what you are talking about, but not actually how things work

*Surface changes between the wheel/(spacer)/brake/stud* due to paint/coating deterioration, corrosion, or otherwise causing a loosening of lug nuts/bolts


These things reiterate the importance of running aftermarket parts that are designed to work in the same way your factory parts were designed to work if you desire to use aftermarket parts. Using hub centric wheels and spacers, and proper centering rings on our cars seems to be very important (of course). Also, ensuring a clean smooth surface between wheel/(spacer)/brake/hub, as well as properly torquing lug nuts/bolts and using high quality components should mean safe operation. Properly torquing wheels and then re-torquing wheels to their proper torque value after installation between 15 and 500 miles should mean that proper clamping force will be achieved and a wheel separation would be very unlikely at that point. 


So my remaining question is, do wobble nuts/bolts do their job of creating proper clamping force like a regular nut/bolt or not? It seems that running properly designed spacers (as long as they are clean and use the correlating bolts at the proper length or extended studs/nuts, and then everything is torqued properly) shouldn't be an issue. Again, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Hopefully some of this information is helpful as it also was for me.


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

MisterJJ said:


> Normal bolt pressing against edge of hole in wheel: --> O)
> Wobble bolt or nut pressing against edge of hole in wheel: --> o)


MisterJJ, nice picture! Haha, that's actually a great way of illustrating your point. Although I think the real force on a variable PCD bolt (wobble bolt) or regular lug bolt should only be in the direction the bolt screws in rather than anything side to side like you have pictured, unless the wobble bolt has too little "wobble distance" and then a force is being applied to the side of the bolt as pictured. If my understanding is correct, a cone seat wobble bolt fit to a cone seat wheel applies the exact same force to attach the wheel as a standard lug bolt, and the cone seat area should seat properly either way. The "wobble area" of a wobble bolt is just a cone shaped washer and should work in the same way as a washer would.

Also, maybe a dumb question but what does "FEA" mean?


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## npace (Sep 3, 2012)

The safety issue is exactly as MisterJJ stated. I'll only add that because of the space that is there, each time the wobble bolt impacts against the hub and / or wheel, the damage and potential for failure increases over the possibility from the previous time. I'm not going to do the math here to figure out exactly what it is, but think of it like a hammer. When you are trying to knock something loose, each time you hit that object with a hammer, it gets closer to coming loose. Add in other variables that your wheels will face, such as exposure to moisture, oil, salt, corrosion, etc, and you can start to see the potential negative consequences of using wobble bolts. For a DD, IMO, it just isn't worth it. It isn't that they seem less safe, they are less safe. 

I haven't found an unacceptable variety of wheels out there, so my question to you is what wheels are you considering that the standard size won't fit? You're safer and better off getting a set of spacers that do a 5x112 to 5x114 conversion. And as far as smaller lug studs / bolts go, again, you would be safer having a machine shop bore out the smaller lug holes in the wheel to accommodate the M14x1.5 size, than using wobble bolts that will shear off much faster than stock lug bolts or a standard stud conversion.


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## MisterJJ (Jul 28, 2005)

cody.eich said:


> MisterJJ, I appreciate your response. I am still unsure about variation nuts/bolts (wobble bolts), but I did gain some insight on the main purposes of lug nuts/bolts which seem to differ slightly from what you've written and helped clarify a few things for me that I didn't know. Here is some info. from what I read.


Yes, the "main purpose" is to clamp the wheel and hub and under most conditions this friction is enough to keep the two parts from moving separately. Anti-lock brakes really puts a strain on that friction, especially if in a hard turn that could be lessening that friction. Spacers make it worse. Now if that slip occurs, the off-center forces due to the wobble nuts could potentially over-strain the parts. It's also possible that the nuts would just loosen due to putting greater forces on one side of the threads, then you would have the possibility of unexpectedly losing your nuts!

It just seems like a big potential for a bad situation. Unless someone comes along with a solid FEA showing plenty of margin for safety, I think you're taking a big risk. Now you can dismiss all of this opinion but you simply have no solid engineering proof that it is in fact safe, so anything else is just baseless conjecture.


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## MisterJJ (Jul 28, 2005)

cody.eich said:


> Also, maybe a dumb question but what does "FEA" mean?


Finite Element Analysis. Using a computer to simulate the stresses on materials to identify potential weaknesses that could result in failure.


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

Thanks for the thought out responses guys! Just to clarify, I am in no way trying to prove a point for or against the use of wobble bolts, as much as trying to understand how things work and if in fact wobble bolts are unsafe. I am, unfortunately, still not convinced that they are unsafe for a couple reasons. But again, let me know if I'm understanding things incorrectly. I have taken no risk as I don't have wobble bolts/nuts on my car, but I would consider them if I knew they were safe. I am somewhere in between the school of thought that only the stock engineered parts are acceptable all the way to loving the look of stretched tires in bulging fender wells and flashy, silly, gaudy things. In no way am I wanting to put myself or anyone else in danger by doing something unsafe as in fact the opposite is true, so my hope is to be able to achieve the look and performance I like, while also remaining safe for myself and those around me (and at least a little bit practical haha). If it's just not possible, then tough luck for me. Now back at it!



npace said:


> because of the space that is there, each time the wobble bolt impacts against the hub and / or wheel, the damage and potential for failure increases over the possibility from the previous time.


From what I understand, a properly torqued wobble bolt, or regular lug bolt for that matter, shouldn't really have any impact against the hub or brake rotor or anything else, and there should be absolutely no movement in the "space" when things are all bolted down that could cause an impact of any kind. See picture.










This is again based on the idea that the friction between each sandwiched part (wheel, rotor, wobble bolt cone washer, etc.) should be the the reason there isn't movement and these parts don't slip except in a case of improper fastening. Once the pieces are properly bolted together (assuming wobble bolts do their job like they are designed to in the same way as a regular lug bolt), everything from the hub outward becomes "one piece," in that they all move together and there should be no movement or impact between any of these objects, while undergoing the stress of ABS, braking, or other torque related situation other than if one of these parts fails. The space that npace is talking about shouldn't have any more movement than a brake rotor has against the hub, which in my understanding should be none. When I pull my wheels off my car, or my rotors off, there aren't signs of this rotational slipping or movement like you are talking about if I'm understanding you correctly, because if it did, that would or could cause my wheel bolts to loosen and my wheel to eventually fall off. So if there is any movement, that would be the cause of a wheel separating. If a wobble bolt is bolted down properly, assuming the movable cone part of the bolt is no different than a washer (so a spacer or a rotor would basically also be a glorified washer being that they are just clamped between two other parts), then no movement should happen, and all or the vast majority of the force, in theory, should be applied inward toward the car rather than rotationally outward or around the hub in any direction. This would be what the articles were talking about where things weren't seated/clamping properly, which causes a lack of friction between the wheel components leaving the weight and forces of the car to be forced, over time as things loosen, onto the studs/lug bolts resulting in shearing of studs on the right side of a car or losing lug nuts on the left, and thus losing the wheel. Either this contact that npace is speaking of is very uncommon and incorrect in theory, or this is more common than I think and it just means we should all be re-torquing our wheels more often! 

Again, I'm just thinking/typing out loud here (I guess this figure of speech doesn't really work here haha, but you get the idea) based on the reading I've done and my experiences. My knowledge is very shallow, but all I can do is try to read and learn more, so any help is much appreciated. 



npace said:


> I haven't found an unacceptable variety of wheels out there, so my question to you is what wheels are you considering that the standard size won't fit?


I know, how dare I consider liking a wheel that only fits 5x114.3 hubs , but I was looking at a set of 17" Blitz 01 wheels awhile back that I decided against because I wasn't sure on the use of wobble bolts then either. I like having options my friend! I had also just decided against driving to New Jersey and buying a set of beautiful redrilled/sleeved(I guess) 5x114.3 to 5x112 Enkei Nt-03's when the seller said he was getting some vibration from one of them and I got cold feet and didn't want to deal with them. I know I know, I just have to do things a little different.

Oh, and thanks MisterJJ for the FEA explanation. That would be really helpful to either prove or disprove this whole thing! Then we wouldn't ever have to talk about it again haha.


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## MisterJJ (Jul 28, 2005)

cody.eich said:


> Oh, and thanks MisterJJ for the FEA explanation. That would be really helpful to either prove or disprove this whole thing! Then we wouldn't ever have to talk about it again haha.


I suspect that the wobble bolt/nut makers have done FEA on their components to make sure their product is safe. At least I would hope so. Perhaps some real-world testing as well. But as soon as you add spacers into the equation the complexity increases greatly and it would be a tremendous effort to try to analyze all potential combinations of spacer and wheel sizes. This is probably why it is recommended not to do this... because there is no way of knowing if it would be safe.

But those stretched tires are a whole other level of unsafe. I had a cousin that was a straight A student... Her daddy bought her rims and stretched tires for her Camry. She was driving alone on the freeway and lost control for unknown reasons and.. yeah.. no more cousin. Probably didn't help that the dad got her in the habit of not wearing a seatbelt. :banghead:


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

MisterJJ said:


> I suspect that the wobble bolt/nut makers have done FEA on their components to make sure their product is safe. At least I would hope so. Perhaps some real-world testing as well. But as soon as you add spacers into the equation the complexity increases greatly and it would be a tremendous effort to try to analyze all potential combinations of spacer and wheel sizes. This is probably why it is recommended not to do this... because there is no way of knowing if it would be safe.


That makes sense. I don't know enough about how forces or loads are transferred between parts like this as far as the physics goes. If I knew more about it I might be more comfortable, but it does seem a bit reckless to just try them at this point not knowing all the details. I may still go for the M12 conversion with nuts for ease of wheel install and to be able to use the more common sized lug nuts so I can get ricey, flashy ones if I feel like it haha. I love the idea of the ARP press in studs like in this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...onversion&highlight=diy+wheel+stud+conversion, but would want to see if they could be done in the M12 size. They just seem like the safest option as opposed to the thread in studs, and ARP's studs have much higher strength than others as well. "With a tensile strength of 190,000 psi, these heat-treated, cadmium-plated 8740 chrome moly wheel studs are a necessity for any car in competitive racing. They easily handle tremendous acceleration shock loads (shear) and lateral forces (elongation)."



MisterJJ said:


> But those stretched tires are a whole other level of unsafe. I had a cousin that was a straight A student... Her daddy bought her rims and stretched tires for her Camry. She was driving alone on the freeway and lost control for unknown reasons and.. yeah.. no more cousin. Probably didn't help that the dad got her in the habit of not wearing a seatbelt. :banghead:


Ah man, I'm so sorry to hear that! Yeah, there are so many factors at play with stretched tires including how much stretch, the brand, physical makeup and age of tires, wheel design, etc. that minimal stretch or none at all is the only sure recipe for safety. And the seatbelt thing makes it that much more of a bummer. It's 2015! I feel like we should know how important seatbelts are at this point!! Again, so sorry to hear about your cousin. I can't even imagine how awful that is.


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## MaysEffect (Aug 18, 2013)

*Wobble "nuts"*

I don't have any arguments on whether wobble bolts work or not as IMO they actually seem safer than welding/drilling wheels as that can cause more damage to the wheel than a off centered lug seat. Once you understand that the centering of a wheel is defined by its seat position on the center bore, no other variable really matters.

My question is where can i find Wobble nuts for our 5x112 14mm stud conversion kits on the market. Many companies have 14mm stud conversion kits for our 5x112 hubs, but the only wobble "nut" i've seen on the market is from Klutch Republik, and those nuts are for 12mm studs not 14mm studs. And even to make that work we would need a 12mmm conversion stud which i have found, but even then the Klutch republik wobble nut is closed back so only a specific length stud will work.

If we were to do a 12mm stud conversion, would we still need to use a wobble nut, or can we just use regular 12mm nuts on a 5x114.3 wheel?


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

MaysEffect said:


> If we were to do a 12mm stud conversion, would we still need to use a wobble nut, or can we just use regular 12mm nuts on a 5x114.3 wheel?


I have read about people doing that, but as the diagram I posted earlier shows, you will still not have the nut seated properly against the wheel unless using a wobble/variable nut that centers without putting stress on your studs. 

I also haven't found a solution to the open headed wobble nuts other than a chinese company that sells the muteki or tuner style, open end lug nuts in a wobble/variable pcd nut (http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/variable-pcd-wheel-nut.html). I'm not sure if you can order directly from them, and I am unsure of their quality. Just not really something I want to risk using parts that may not be engineered properly and use appropriate materials to keep my wheels on . I read about someone cutting off the ends of the Klutch wobble nuts (Klutch was formerly Raderworks I believe), but that's obviously a little bit crude, especially considering most people on these forums tend to really like when things look like OEM. Raderworks was one of the companies that recommended not using wobble bolts with spacers I believe.



MaysEffect said:


> I don't have any arguments on whether wobble bolts work or not as IMO they actually seem safer than welding/drilling wheels as that can cause more damage to the wheel than a off centered lug seat. Once you understand that the centering of a wheel is defined by its seat position on the center bore, no other variable really matters.


I'm convinced that wobble nuts/bolts should work just fine as well, but my only question that remains is whether one can use wobble nuts/bolts and spacers. It looks as though the same rules apply as just using normal wheel bolts, where the thickness of the spacer determines the length longer than the stock bolt length one would need. Companies like ECS only sell one length of wobble bolt for our cars (stock length), so you wouldn't be able to use spacers with them. If stock bolts are 27mm and you use a 10mm spacer, you would need 37mm bolts. So in theory, with extended studs you could run any reasonable width spacer as long as your studs stick out far enough where the nut still covers the appropriate length of threads on the stud. 

My only thought as to why this might be recommended against is that at a certain point as you get thicker and thicker on spacer width, I would assume that the friction between the hub/brake/(spacer)/wheel that the lug nuts/wheel bolts were designed to create would be the potential weak point. Maybe I'm not thinking about things properly, but it seems like if spacers or lower offset wheels can cause your wheel bearings to wear out faster because of more stress being put on them, this is also going to stress the nuts/bolts that attach them? Again, if someone who knows what they're talking about could chime in here that would be excellent.


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4018013-Wobble-bolts-Spacers/page2 

This is where I was reading about peoples' opinions on spacers/wobble bolts for the record (post #31 in particular).


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## Ponto (Jan 11, 2012)

Didn't read anything. 
But have been running wobble bolts on my wheels for the last two years and nearly 20k km. No issues what so ever.

However never added spacers as you would need longer bolts likely special order maybe? I could never find any longer length wobble bolts


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## MisterJJ (Jul 28, 2005)

cody.eich said:


> My only thought as to why this might be recommended against is that at a certain point as you get thicker and thicker on spacer width, I would assume that the friction between the hub/brake/(spacer)/wheel that the lug nuts/wheel bolts were designed to create would be the potential weak point. Maybe I'm not thinking about things properly, but it seems like if spacers or lower offset wheels can cause your wheel bearings to wear out faster because of more stress being put on them, this is also going to stress the nuts/bolts that attach them? Again, if someone who knows what they're talking about could chime in here that would be excellent.


Wheel bearing are designed to handle centered loads for long periods of time. This is normal highway and straight line driving with no spacers.
They are also designed to handle limited side loads for short periods of time. This is normal cornering loads.
The problem is that spacers put the side loads on the bearings ALL the time. Additionally, the change in the leverage point may increase the side load beyond the bearing design limits.

Now, most of that does not relate to spacers because the time exposed to loads doesn't really matter. But the more side load there is on the bearing, the more increased load there is on the studs. Additionally, the side load makes the friction between the surfaces uneven, resulting in less overall friction. Both of these factors could probably be overcome by using higher strength studs AND higher torque. Calculating how much stronger the studs would have to be and how much more torque is needed would require significant design engineering and would be different for every car/wheel/spacer combination. Additionally, the increased strain on the threads in the bearing hub would have to be taken into consideration.


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## MaysEffect (Aug 18, 2013)

*wobble bolts and spacers?*

Well after thinking about it I'm having a hard time understanding why you would need to run wobble bolts & spacers in the first place. The whole point in getting incorrect pcd pattern wheels in the first place is because the come in the correct size in the first place without the need of running spacers.

Another note which I'm not 100% sure of...Some companies i believe make a adapter plate/spacer that converts our 5x112 to a different pcd bolt pattern while also including a stud kit. I know for sure H&R makes such a design but i'm not sure what pcd patterns it changes it to and if it includes the correct center bore for your wheels. IMO this is a way better solution then going through this fiasco in the first place as you cut out the need of using a wobble bolt/nut in the first place. Only reason why you wouldn't use this method is because the incorrect wheel in question doesn't need or can't be spaced out any further then its current design.

You haven't made it clear either if you already have a set of wheels in question or if you are looking at a set of wheels. Either way you should have already established how much the wheel needs to be spaced out if at all. I'm pretty sure if you need 10mm you can get away with an addition 5mm and align the car accordingly. 

I myself bought the correct size wheels, they are just the wrong pcd pattern and i don't want to use normal wobble bolts, but a stud conversion instead.The only problem I'm questioning now is, if i use this stud conversion that's not a threaded design, i won't be able to convert back to a normal bolt since the hub threads will be ruined.


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## MaysEffect (Aug 18, 2013)

*examples*

http://www.urotuning.com/VW-Audi-Wheel-Adapters-s/3031.htm 

http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/m...CTGY&Store_Code=EM&Category_Code=Wheel-Spacer

http://www.42draftdesigns.com/wheel-spacers-adaptors/

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159314 - showing usage, can't find the actual part.

If you need spacers for a incorrect PCD wheel, this looks to be a better option. :thumbup:


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

Ponto said:


> Didn't read anything.
> But have been running wobble bolts on my wheels for the last two years and nearly 20k km. No issues what so ever.
> 
> However never added spacers as you would need longer bolts likely special order maybe? I could never find any longer length wobble bolts


That seems to be the consensus, that they work great without spacers. I'm sold on that idea for sure. Spacers are what make things more tricky it seems. 



MisterJJ said:


> Wheel bearing are designed to handle centered loads for long periods of time. This is normal highway and straight line driving with no spacers.
> They are also designed to handle limited side loads for short periods of time. This is normal cornering loads.
> The problem is that spacers put the side loads on the bearings ALL the time. Additionally, the change in the leverage point may increase the side load beyond the bearing design limits.
> 
> Now, most of that does not relate to spacers because the time exposed to loads doesn't really matter. But the more side load there is on the bearing, the more increased load there is on the studs. Additionally, the side load makes the friction between the surfaces uneven, resulting in less overall friction. Both of these factors could probably be overcome by using higher strength studs AND higher torque. Calculating how much stronger the studs would have to be and how much more torque is needed would require significant design engineering and would be different for every car/wheel/spacer combination. Additionally, the increased strain on the threads in the bearing hub would have to be taken into consideration.


Thanks for the feedback here. That makes a lot of sense and was put way more eloquently than what I could have said haha. It seems like the press in ARP studs are much stronger, but it would just be a guess as to whether they are strong enough to compensate for the spacers. 



MaysEffect said:


> Well after thinking about it I'm having a hard time understanding why you would need to run wobble bolts & spacers in the first place. The whole point in getting incorrect pcd pattern wheels in the first place is because the come in the correct size in the first place without the need of running spacers.
> 
> Another note which I'm not 100% sure of...Some companies i believe make a adapter plate/spacer that converts our 5x112 to a different pcd bolt pattern while also including a stud kit. I know for sure H&R makes such a design but i'm not sure what pcd patterns it changes it to and if it includes the correct center bore for your wheels. IMO this is a way better solution then going through this fiasco in the first place as you cut out the need of using a wobble bolt/nut in the first place. Only reason why you wouldn't use this method is because the incorrect wheel in question doesn't need or can't be spaced out any further then its current design.
> 
> ...


Initially, I was looking at refinishing a set of 17x8 and 17x9 staggered Blitz Type 01 wheels that were a 5x114.3 bolt pattern that were very close to my desired offset. If I wanted to use something like a 5mm spacer with these wheels to achieve my desired super hella tightz flushness stances (I know it sounds sarcastic but I really love the look and wider wheelbase unfortunately), wobble nuts would come in handy to dial things in. I love the idea of the bolt on 5x112 to 5x114.3 conversions, but they would leave me with too low of a final offset with said wheels. I understand that it would be much easier to just find wheels that were the correct offset and bolt pattern already, but sometimes you just find a great deal on wheels that you don't want to pass up. I'm really just interested in figuring out if things are safe at this point, and what my options are out of curiosity more than anything. Both of my current sets of wheels are 5x112 and have an offset that works already.

As far as not wanting to use wobble bolts, unless you did the 5x112 to 5x114.3 conversion spacers which significantly lower your offset to something that won't work for your car if your wheels are already the proper offset, you are left to use wobble nuts with the stud conversion. The safety concern with the thread in studs is that there are multiple instances of people, just here on vortex alone, who have said their studs came unthreaded while driving, making the press in studs a potentially safer option in my opinion. Maybe they were installed improperly, or some other factor was involved, but press in studs would leave me with a bit more peace of mind. 

It seems like people who have converted to studs don't really have a reason to want to go back to bolts after their conversion to studs. Is there a reason you would want to go back? With studs, it seems like everything works the same except that you have more options for lug nuts (especially with the M14 to M12 conversion studs), quicker/easier wheel changes, ability to run different spacer widths without new bolts or nuts, etc. My only thought would be if you wanted the specific look of wheel bolts? 




MaysEffect said:


> http://www.urotuning.com/VW-Audi-Wheel-Adapters-s/3031.htm
> 
> http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/m...CTGY&Store_Code=EM&Category_Code=Wheel-Spacer
> 
> ...


Great options, but you're left compensating for the added width of the spacer permanently with 5x114.3 wheels. You could go back to using wheel bolts again after this, but again, unless you wanted to sell your thread in studs for a little bit of money, I'm unsure of the benefit of needing to go back to wheel bolts. Maybe you can clarify.




I really appreciate the feedback here guys. Sometimes you search and search and it takes forever to get these things sorted out. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## MaysEffect (Aug 18, 2013)

*threaded studs*

Well i'd just like to confirm thread in studs are becoming a major problem, certainly with spacers. I currently tested out the threaded inserts that are a 14x1.5 to 12x1.5 converter for use with wobble nuts and the studs will not sit in the hub properly and has loosened in the front causing some very weird noises. I think the best and safest option would be just using press in studs that hold in place properly. I will be trying the 7708 ARP studs when i get new hubs and hopefully that will allow better tightening of the nuts. 

This seems to only be a problem on my front wheels with the 3mm spacers. The rears are holding fine so far that i can see. But the studs seem to be made out of cheap galvanized steel.

These are the wobble bolts offered by Urotuning.com









This is how the studs sit in the nuts - 14x1.5 to 12x1.5


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## npace (Sep 3, 2012)

What studs are you using? I've been using thread-in studs for over two years with no issues. Mine are not galvanized steel, however. I've been using the Apex competition track studs.


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## MaysEffect (Aug 18, 2013)

They are euro workes 14x1.5 to 12x1.5 conversion studs on amazon. The other problem is the conical seat on the wheels is to small for the wobble nut amd is not seated all the way on the wheel. I need to open the seat up on the wheels.

But still the studs are just not fitting in properly. There is no stopping ring on these so I already assumed it would be a problem.


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## MaysEffect (Aug 18, 2013)

Another small update.

So the wobble nuts offered on the market are a bit too wide for the wheel seat for my wheels (Enkei rpf1). I now need to open up the wheel seat a few millimeters in order for the nut to sit properly on the wheel. Supposedly the nut and seat are both 60 degree conical, but for whatever reason they did not line up. At first i thought they were simply different angles, but both are stated as 60 degree conical angle.

I'm guessing previous mods like using a 16mm (5/8) drill bit is still necessary even when using 12x1.5mm studs.


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## cody.eich (Mar 22, 2015)

Super late on the reply here guys... I actually sold my A3. So sad. But before I did I bought some cheap studs and the same wobble nuts pictured previously in the thread. I put on one wheel with the thread in studs to check fitment with a 5x112 wheel without the wobble nuts. Basically I ended up threading the studs in too far into the hub when I went to tighten my wheel down (with old, cheap, slightly rusted open ended lug nuts I had lying around - bad idea), and almost ruined my hub in the process. It freaked me right out and I didn't reconsider the idea before I sold the car. Basically my conclusion is that I would be confident running thread in studs (ideally with something to stop the stud from threading in too far) with wobble nuts, but only high quality studs and nuts for sure. My studs were garbage and the wobble nuts I bought just seemed questionable, but I had no way of checking them as well. I think that after the spacer conversations from before, it seems like the added variable that I can't confidently draw a conclusion on because of the perimeters that the stock parts are designed to operate within, would be the spacers. I still like the press in stud idea the best. Thanks for the info guys!


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