# Suspension - Control Arm Replacement [TOC]



## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

Ordered the following today ... 8 front control arms.. 2 rear... 2 front drop links.. 2 front tie rod end assemblies .. 2 sets of rear stabilisers.... 
should make the running a bit smoother... 132k miles up on her and never been done so i said i'd do the lot together as i'm at it... will do a report on the - before and after - once fitted


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

How about images of the process? 

Damon


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I hope the pinch bolts for the upper control arms aren't as much of a pain to remove as they are on the Passat... 

Harry


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

This looks like an interesting project. I'm thinking about to do the same with my car. When driving over speed bumps, a grating sound is audible. After a few km, the sound is over. 
Also, both upper rear control arms of the front suspension are damaged. I have no idea how that could happen. 
The biggest challenge seems to be the removal of the struts. I would love to see some photo's of the process. 

Willem


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

From eyeballing it, I wouldn't imagine that the process will be too different to the one in these videos: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrYAAtlsjnY 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-0cvMxherU 

Harry


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Prince Ludwig said:


> From eyeballing it, I wouldn't imagine that the process will be too different to the one in these videos:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrYAAtlsjnY
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-0cvMxherU
> ...


 Something to do on a Sunday morning then..............:laugh:


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

WillemBal said:


> This looks like an interesting project. I'm thinking about to do the same with my car. When driving over speed bumps, a grating sound is audible. After a few km, the sound is over.
> Also, both upper rear control arms of the front suspension are damaged. I have no idea how that could happen.
> The biggest challenge seems to be the removal of the struts. I would love to see some photo's of the process.
> 
> Willem


 There's also visible damage on one of my upper control arms, it looks as if the rubber has fully compressed causing metal-on-metal impact.


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## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

I am getting ready to do that too. Got all 10 pieces ($ 502.--) 4 lower, 4 upper and the 2 sway-bar links. 
I had actually ask my tire place to do the work since I work about 65 hrs a week. However right at the beginning of the work I got a call and they advised me that they run into the first (what they thought ) problem, and that is that on our cars ( as well the Audi's ) the lower front a arm mounting bolt can only be removed when you cut the head of and push it out the other way. ( Way to do it, is to buy a new bolt and nut (watch the grade) and put it in the other way. Besides that they were worried about the air suspension lines. 
Therefore I will do it myself. 

Gernot


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

heisenberg2000 said:


> I am getting ready to do that too. Got all 10 pieces ($ 502.--) 4 lower, 4 upper and the 2 sway-bar links........
> 
> Gernot


 Gernot & Edmund: 

I have no experience with this task but i think you are doing it the best way by replacing virtually all frontend components. As these heavy cars age in years and mileage replacing the frontend parts one by one as they truly fail seems like the more expensive option for those planning to keep their cars. If you do piecemeal replacement of worn components, duplicate labor costs and alignment costs could adversely impact the pocketbook. For me, just "get er done" and enjoy. 

Gernot, where did you purchase your frontend parts? $502 is a great deal as long as you are sure the parts are of good quality. i assume at that price you are not getting VW original equipment components. Your part count also suggests that you are getting complete arms and not just bushings to press into your old arms. Best of luck on your DIY install and please share some of your experience once the task is done. 

Jim X


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

invisiblewave said:


> There's also visible damage on one of my upper control arms, it looks as if the rubber has fully compressed causing metal-on-metal impact.


 The damage on my control arms is visible in the below photo: 









https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BiAUf-dv5Hg/TyRi6K78-6I/AAAAAAAAAQA/kOiIC_7GM1c/s400/2011-12-23%2520UpperrearcontrolArm.jpg

The other side looks identical. I have no idea what may have caused it.  

Willem


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

I am HUGELY interested in this thread. I've got a case of the "creaks" in the front and plan on keeping my car until it's outlawed (a la Neil Peart/Red Barchetta). 

I anxiously await updates on your progress and final result. Best of luck!


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## Kenny G (Nov 8, 2010)

Looks like the suspension bottomed out at some point, possibly further than designed. 

Also my car creaks when it's cold out but once it warms up the creaks seems to go away. 

Ken


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Kenny G said:


> Looks like the suspension bottomed out at some point, possibly further than designed. Also my car creaks when it's cold out but once it warms up the creaks seems to go away.


 That's what I thought too, originally. Might be caused by all those stupid speed bumps. Could it be that the rubber inside the control arm was displaced somehow? 

When they wouldn't have been damaged, new rubbers would have been a much cheaper solution. The rubbers can be purchased as separate item and the procedure to replace them is in the Bentley repair manual. Is there anyone who has some experience with this replacement procedure? Can it be done without the specially designed tool? 
Willem


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

.
I found below photo very useful for understanding of how all components are related to one another: 










http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/FrontAxleIllustration.jpg

(Thanks to Michael, found in the Suspension squeak thread below) 
Suspension squeak

Other useful threads: 
Replacing front Antiroll (aka Sway) Bar Droplinks [TOC]
Strut Mount Noise On Slow Bumpy Road

Willem


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

That damaged control arms looks like the wheel might have hit a big bump while turning a sharp right corner. 

Harry


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks Harry, for your comment (and for rubbing it into my face). Must have happened during a hot pursuit in the narrow streets of Amsterdam!


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Hi Willem, 

It was a purely objective observation  

Seriously, though, it's surprising just how much the upper control arm bushings flex when you turn the wheel. 

Harry


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

edfitzie said:


> Ordered the following today ... 8 front control arms.. 2 rear... 2 front drop links.. 2 front tie rod end assemblies .. 2 sets of rear stabilisers....
> should make the running a bit smoother... 132k miles up on her and never been done so i said i'd do the lot together as i'm at it... will do a report on the - before and after - once fitted


 Ed, 

you've sort of got me hooked on doing this Please post details of before and after plus cost if thats okay? 

Thanks 
Stu


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

stu, 
have done this on many cars down through the years, both classic and modern.. makes a huge difference getting it all done at once... once you go over the 100k mark these components are tired..even if they look ok on inspection you re talking about rubber components under load for a long time.. the phaetons weight accentuates this wear....what you ll notice is a tighter more cosseting feel.. 
drive a 20k car and identical 120k car back to back ... obviously the 120k car will feel more "tired"... 
doing all the bushes .. rod assembly and drop links in my experience really freshens the car.. engine mounts also make a difference but thats a story for another day... ..


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

conmoto said:


> I am HUGELY interested in this thread. I've got a case of the "creaks" in the front and plan on keeping my car until it's outlawed (a la Neil Peart/Red Barchetta).
> 
> I anxiously await updates on your progress and final result. Best of luck!


 Mine's been creaking ever since the front bumper was removed for the belt job. Current suspicion falls on the wheel well lining since I noticed that during the bumper replacement they managed to break on of the linings.


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

It looks like the VW parts and labor for the suspension "refresh" will run me just shy of $4000. 

Would love to know if someone else has done this and what the results were. Also, has anyone had poor results from aftermarket suspension parts? Other than price, the only known difference is the warranty. Aftermarket parts have 90 day parts only warranty. VW parts are 12 months/12k miles parts and labor warranty. 

What could possibly go wrong with suspension parts!?


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

edfitzie said:


> stu,
> have done this on many cars down through the years, both classic and modern.. makes a huge difference getting it all done at once... once you go over the 100k mark these components are tired..even if they look ok on inspection you re talking about rubber components under load for a long time.. the phaetons weight accentuates this wear....what you ll notice is a tighter more cosseting feel..
> drive a 20k car and identical 120k car back to back ... obviously the 120k car will feel more "tired"...
> doing all the bushes .. rod assembly and drop links in my experience really freshens the car.. engine mounts also make a difference but thats a story for another day... ..


 Hi Ed, 

any chance of you posting the part numbers? 

Thanks 
Stu


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

stu, 
will dig out the part numbers over the weekend... they re Kager but i'll get them to send me cross reference with original numbers


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

I replaced mine a few month ago, It makes the car much better ( Had done 205.000 km) it solved a vibration while braking and a vibration while doing 110 km/u. But now it is cold, the squeeck on speed bumps is not gone. It is only when it is cold and the in the first km so I think it is just the nature of the bushes when moving. 
In my case the shop replaced the whole control arm and not only the bushes, In price it made no such a difference. Or more money for the parts or when choosing for bushes replacement, more money for labour. I choose for the new control arms with the bushes, then I would be sure the bushes are correctly placed. 
By the way, all the bushes and control arms/steering arms in front and back where replaced. so I got a whole new suspension. 

jorg


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

jorg, 
did you also notice a difference in the ride quality and steering feel?


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

yes the ride is much smoother.
but be aware that you got the car aligned after it and check for perfect balanced rims. Because of its heavy weight, airsuspension and its perfect smooth ride, 'the car' or (probably me) is much more sensitive to little vibrations in the wheels and drivetrain. also flatspotting is a point of discussion...in the first km after staying overnight is noticable, some brands like Continental, bridgestone and I thought Michelin, have a rubber compount that is not sensitive for flatspotting. dunlop is, while it is the OEM tyre for the Phaeton in Europe.
So you need to find a perfect match of perfect drivetrain, good straight rims and perfect tires.
Here in the Netherlands we sometimes got perfect roads, like a billiart. after all my modifications and warm tyres, the car really rides perfect, no vibration nothing, looks like standing still, I love it!

jorg


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

I think hat settles it - somesuspension parts company will be seeing te colour of Stu's money some time soon!


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Jorgsphaeton said:


> ...But now it is cold, the squeeck on speed bumps is not gone. It is only when it is cold and the in the first km so I think it is just the nature of the bushes when moving...
> .


Hi Jorg,
Did you really change both front and rear suspension parts (all of them) and your car is still squeaking on speed bumps? I would expect that the suspension would act as if it was new and therefore wouldn’t squeak for the next couple of years. 

Willem


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## 53 0val (Feb 23, 2010)

After a similar "clunking" sound was heard in my car, I took the car to VW and they replaced the front end bushings. Sound did not go away. They put Chassis Ears on the car and drove it around, trying to source out the sound...................no luck. They eventually put a technician outside the car and one setting on the motor and drove the car over several drive way entrances to get it to clunk again, and finally found where the sound was coming from. It was loose bolts on the center plenum box under the windshield. Car was under warranty, so it covered the cost of the new bushings. 

Bob


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Did the clunking come from down by your feet or up higher? Mine does a clunk, but it's down by my feet.


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## 53 0val (Feb 23, 2010)

invisiblewave said:


> Did the clunking come from down by your feet or up higher? Mine does a clunk, but it's down by my feet.


I really could not tell from inside the car. I, at first, thought it was coming from the trunk. It had everyone fooled for a couple days. The PHAETON has a lot of sound suppressing material, so any sound can be problematic from inside the car.

Bob


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## phaetonenvy (Jun 2, 2006)

Hey Ed,
Thanks for posting.
Did you get a chance to post those part numbers?

I am planning to put the phaeton on a rack and swap out the bushings that need replacement.

I am still debating bushing replacement v. Control arm replacement.

I have seen a lot of price variation, so part numbers will help to confirm cost of maintenance.

Thanks!


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## tongzilla (Dec 30, 2011)

Just ordered total of 10 bushings (just bushings, not the whole control arms) for the front suspension both upper and lower control arms. Paid $300 to www.1stVWparts.com. The guys at www.1stVWparts.com said I should not have to buy the complete control arms. Verified it with my tech, was told these bushings are very similar to other Audis and VWs and he had done quite a few of them. Should have them next week. Talked to my indy tech, he can do all for about $400. Will report back.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

tongzilla said:


> Just ordered total of 10 bushings (just bushings, not the whole control arms) for the front suspension both upper and lower control arms. Paid $300 to www.1stVWparts.com. The guys at www.1stVWparts.com said I should not have to buy the complete control arms. Verified it with my tech, was told these bushings are very similar to other Audis and VWs and he had done quite a few of them. Should have them next week. Talked to my indy tech, he can do all for about $400. Will report back.


Pressing bushings in the control arms should be no big deal for someone that has done this several times and has a suitable press. Less than a $1,000 for a fairly complete frontend rebuild is a real bargain. I guess $400 for labor means the tech must believe he can do the task in less than a full day. Are you sure you don't want to add tierod ends and stabilizer droplinks? Although these could be done anytime, the tierod ends will likely require an alignment that is, I believe, required when doing some of the control arms.

Love to hear any insights you have after the work is done. Many of us will have this chore in the not so distant future! 

Jim X


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I drove Marcos's car last week, which has a complete new suspension, and the difference to mine was significant, it's a much smoother ride.


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

Sorry, but who is Marcos? I would like to know what exactly he had done to the suspension.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm not sure if he's detailed all the changes he had done, but it was the whole suspension, struts, arms, bushings, everything. They were trying to cure the tyre wear problem, which I think has improved but not been totally resolved. Anyway, there's a significant difference between a car with 80k on the original suspension and one that's done about 20k since the suspension was changed.


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

Martin,

You are correct. I had a replacement of all the bushings, control arms, air struts, control module on my 2004 V8 at 85k miles. 

The car was not feeling tight over bumps, there was noise from the suspension when driving over uneven roads and the tires were not wearing evenly.

The car now feels just like when I bought it. As far as the wear of the tires, much improved as well.

I cannot tell you how much the whole work was, there was a component paid by VW and a portion I paid out of pocket.

Bottom line is that you will notice a significant improvement when the work is done. This is a heavy car and it takes a toll on those rubber suspension components. 

Marcos


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks for specifying Marcos. Do you have an opinion on whether the struts had much of an impact on the ride improvement? I'd like to believe that the control arms and bushings are responsible for the improvement. 

Were the struts replaced because of a total failure as alluded to in other threads?


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

Conmoto,

The improvement was due to the bushing replacement in my opinion. One of my struts appeared to be failing. I did not notice the issue as a driver, but I was glad to have them replaced since this is one of those issues that VW may or may not continue to extend good will support to cover the cost.

The only thing I did notice, is that after replacing the struts, the car seems to sit a little higher than before- it could be just me, but sure seems like it does.

Marcos


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

Understood. Good to know. I really need to replace some bushings. The Phaeton is creaking like a rusty gate.

Regarding your ride height: As I remember, the stock 2004 suspension is open to adjustment to European spec (lower) via VAGCOM, but 2005+ cannot be modified via VAGCOM. Did you by chance have your 2004 suspension lowered?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My guess, fwiw, would also be the bushings. Mine has minor metal-on-metal contact damage around one of the bushings, presumably because of softening/failure of the rubber. There was also some minor improvement when I replaced the driver's side anti-roll bar droplink. It's hard to see how the air struts would contribute to ride problems unless they failed completely (which I've always assumed is one reason air struts are preferred to springs).


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## phaetonenvy (Jun 2, 2006)

Tongzilla,
How did the install go?


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## sachverhalte (Sep 16, 2007)

*Front suspension bushings*

Hi Tongzilla, 

Did you ever complete this job. I would like to order the parts from 1stVWparts. Do you have the part number list that you ordered? It looks to me as if there are only 8 bushings to replace, plus the sway-bar "droplinks". Is that the case? 

Thanks...Bob


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## tongzilla (Dec 30, 2011)

Sorry for the delay. I haven't forgotten about the update! My Phaeton actually has been at Northtowne VW for 2 weeks and $3,000 later for trunk problem (new wiring harness) and CEL (Mass Airflow Sensors and 2 Breather Pipes). I dropped the car off this morning to get all 10 bushings replaced and serpentine belt replaced. My tech is charging me 8 hours to put all 10 bushings and to replace the belt. I should have the car back tomorrow and will give you an update of how it went and of course how it drives. Cheers!


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## phaetonenvy (Jun 2, 2006)

Cant wait to hear about it.
Just pulled the wheels and took a look at mine, I plan to swap the sway bar links first and see how that goes. it looks straight forward enough, and I won't have to deal with that dreaded bolt on the uppers.


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## tongzilla (Dec 30, 2011)

Sorry again for the delay on an update. OK. I dropped the car off on Tuesday and got the car back on Wednesday. He charged me total of 8 hours ($450) to replace all 10 bushings and drive belt. The Phaeton is now without creaks and moans. It appears to be much more solid down the road.

Those who have been wanting to do it should do it. Total Parts and Labor for this job is inexpensive given the scheme of things. Although, I would not recommend the VW dealer because I believe the dealer will not only replacing the bushings, they would want to replace the whole control arms. That can get expensive very quickly. Conmoto mentioned of $4,000 to refresh front suspension. I paid about $300 for these Bushings and $450 for Labor and $100 Alignment - total of $850, I think that's a great $850 SPENT!! Find someone who is familiar with Audi/VW products, the work is straight forward. And don't forget to get the car aligned.

Bob, call 877-737-3670 (1stVWparts) - they are actually _*Auburn Volkswagen*_ - A full VW dealer in Auburn, WA and tell them you have a Phaeton and you are wanting to replace the front bushings. Those guys know exactly which ones to get. I was trying to order it online and got confused as to which ones to get. I finally called them up and asked them, should have done that at the beginning! They will also put the diagram and parts number with the items when shipped.

Tong


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## stefanuk (Jul 7, 2010)

Hi Tong,

Can you say who made the suspension bushes you had fitted, are they rubber or polyurethane? as i'm looking at replacing mine with polyurethane ones but when i look online no one makes them specifically for the Phaeaton, although powerflex suggest using their universal bushes.
Like you i don't want to go down the dealer route and have them fit not just bushes but control arms etc too.
Thanks,
Stefan


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Stefan,

Can't you get Audi bushes? A lot of the suspension components are common to RS4/6 and A/S8 surely powerflex or polybush cater for those?

Stu


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## tongzilla (Dec 30, 2011)

The bushings I got were all rubber. The parts number/quantity/price are:

4E0-407-181-D (2) - $27.63
4E0-407-182-C (2) - $27.63
4E0-407-183-H (2) - $50.14
8D0-407-515-C (4) - $22.45

Hope this helps!

Tong


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## stefanuk (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestion Stu, didn't occur to me. I've had a quick internet search but again seems that these cars are not catered for which i would have expected. Maybe they didn't sell in enough numbers either!!

Thanks for the part numbers Tongzilla, are they original VW parts??
i'm more tempted with polyurethane as they are supposed to not degrade over time and also provide more stable suspension control over the rubber bushes, but if i have to i'll stick with the OE rubber bushes.

Stefan


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

stefanuk said:


> Thanks for the suggestion Stu, didn't occur to me. I've had a quick internet search but again seems that these cars are not catered for which i would have expected. Maybe they didn't sell in enough numbers either!!
> 
> Thanks for the part numbers Tongzilla, are they original VW parts??
> i'm more tempted with polyurethane as they are supposed to not degrade over time and also provide more stable suspension control over the rubber bushes, but if i have to i'll stick with the OE rubber bushes.
> ...


Powerflex do most of the bushes, drop links, top and bottom arms and anti roll bar, considering taking the (not inconsiderable) plunge!

Stu


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## sachverhalte (Sep 16, 2007)

*Suspension parts*

Hi Tong,

Many thanks for the note on 1st VW parts. I'm asking the local Audi dealer to quote the bushing replacement. My VW dealer claims they don't have the tool to push the old bushings in/out. I'm wondering if a typical non-dealer Audi mechanic would have such tools. Or am I stuck going to a dealer?

Thanks...Bob


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## tongzilla (Dec 30, 2011)

I believe VW/Audi dealers do not want to replace just the bushings. They would rather replace the whole thing. I assume it is simply more $$$, less headache, and less liability.


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## stefanuk (Jul 7, 2010)

i am yes Stu.
I've recently had to have the drop bar links replaced due to their perishing and thought if they needed replacement the other bushes can't be far behind and it does feel a little 'wooly' to drive, even after an alignment check.
I doesn't feel as tight as i remember the car from a couple of years ago when i brought it.

Stefan


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

"Woolly" is exactly how I'd describe the way mine feels after having driven Marcos's. It feels sort of loose. Not sure I'm ready to drop the money required to sort it out though.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Jxander said:


> Pressing bushings in the control arms should be no big deal for someone that has done this several times and has a suitable press.


I think that this is the tool for the job:

Prior to removal of the old bushing:









http://www.audi-80-scene.de/forum/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=8456

It seems that the old bushing can pop out with force.

Prior to installation of the new bushing (lubricate with Gleitöl G 294 421 A1)








http://www.audi-80-scene.de/forum/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=8457

The tool is needed for many different VW models. So anyone who has done this on other VW's, should be able to do it for the Phaeton as well.

Willem


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

all the parts arrived this morning... will try and get time to fit the tie rod ends and drops links today and early next week i'll fit all the control arms back and front.. after that will post a detailed report on the before and after


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## phaetonenvy (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks ed. Looking forward to your writeup. I just spoke with my mechanic and he estimates 6 hrs. I plan to order the bushings next week.


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

fitted inner/outer tie rod ends... much tighter now up front ... the little "play" that was there in the steering is now gone.. will get VW to change all the control arms/drop links, next week and report back thereafter


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## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

*Front Suspension*

After buying all the parts at the beginning of the year, i finally got around to start working on the front suspension.

I did the work in front of the garage with 2 floor jacks ( the second for loading the suspension while tightening all the parts )
I dare to say that i did not run into any difficulty (needless to state that performing this work on a hoist will make it about at least 60 % easier ). It took about 10 minutes to cut off the head of the front A arm mount bolt. I used a regular saw blade for this since there is not enough space for a flex.

I did drop down the whole sway bar during reassy. It makes refitting the parts much simpler. 

While installing the sway bar link, i found that the holes in the link (the one i got) differ in so far, that i ended up opening the lower hole to 12 mm (diam.) and using the original mounting bolt. For the upper mount i used the supplied 10 mm bolt and nut. 

Due to lack of time i did not get around to do the upper a arms yet. But from just looking at it, it does not look to involving. 

I will report more soon.

Gernot

PS. 
During the repair i did also found out the my inner CV joint boots are bad. (i have 92,000 miles on the car)


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## sachverhalte (Sep 16, 2007)

*Bushing replacement*

Hi All,

Many thanks for the information you all have contributed. As I am short on time and tools, I hired a shop to refresh the suspension. I couldn't get the good indy mechanic prices here in Boston that Tong found in Missouri. I did however get the four bushings on the upper control arms and the two droplinks replaced for $1000 including rental car for the day. The squeaks and clunks are gone, and the suspension is tight once again.

Bob


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

*control arm replacement instructions*

Our cars getting older and we will need to replace the controlarms or bushes soon, so here is a tutorial how to do that by yourself. it is for an audi A8 but that will be the same except that we have air shocks: 

http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/susp_whls_brake_steer/controlarmreplace.html 


jorg


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

Thanks for posting the nice tutorial; might come in handy someday. 

I wonder if the A8 coil overs would work inplace of our airbags... should they happen to fail.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

There's some 'what if' discussion in this thread about deleting the air suspension: 

Air ride removal 

It looks to be a lot of engineering and computing effort, practically a redesign of the car... 

Cheers, 
Chris


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Bushings*

I just had the two bushings replaced on the rear upper control arms (one per arm) and kept the old ball joints. It cost me $500 for the parts and install. Now the grunch noise I was hearing every morning for a mile or two is completely gone. My car has 116,000 miles and has been making the noise the last 20k or so.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

When removing the air shock absorbers (struts) in order to change the upper control arms, does anyone know if it is a tricky job to disconnect the air system from them on the Phaeton?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

The book just breezily says this:

‒ Remove wheel. 
‒ Unscrew air line from air spring strut and seal ends of both unions. 
‒ Cut through cable tie on air spring strut.
‒ etc

Usually if there were problems it links to a short line that says "remove engine before undoing bolt B" or similar!

There is likely to be some residual air in the tank, but the car expects this to dissipate slowly as it stands, regardless.

Chris


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Chris.

If I grab my upper control arms I can twist them through a few degrees fairly easily by hand so I think the rubber bushes are getting a bit old and flimsy. 

I know that you can replace the bushes alone, but I would have thought the ball joints on the other ends are just as likely to be worn as well. A job for the Summer perhaps.


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

The A8 in the link is the old pre-2004 A8, so is more like a Passat than a Phaeton.


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

*Suspension - Control Arm Replacement [added to TOC]*

fitted new drop links today to go along with the inner/outer tie rods.. on test drive car now tighter and smoother.. she s still at VW and I have all new front control arms.. they re reporting that there is no play on these and saying perhaps just leave it.. theres 140k miles on her and bushes / arms not done previously.. 
advice would be appreciated... i 'm thinking ok .. there s no play but in my previous experience doing this you get a smoother new car ride afterwards.. ?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm now in a position to answer this. I had 4 suspension arms and one sway bar link (the one I hadn't previously done myself, I assume) replaced, and the ride is noticeably improved. Total job was about $1700.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

invisiblewave said:


> I'm now in a position to answer this. I had 4 suspension arms and one sway bar link (the one I hadn't previously done myself, I assume) replaced, and the ride is noticeably improved. Total job was about $1700.


 I just had two front suspension arms replaced (the upper rear ones) and bushings were replaced of the upper front control arms. I was present during the entire job and took some pictures, which I will post later on. The most labour intensive was the removal of the two pivot pins of the control arms, which are attached to the bearing bracket and held in place by one long, bolt. This bolt was almost a party killer due to the accumulated rust. 

Total costs about 475 Euro incl. VAT and about 3.5 hours labour. The ride is terrific now and the annoying squeaking noise which could be heard when driving over speed bumps is completely gone. eace: 

Willem


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

How many of these parts passed a visual inspection, but still needed to be replaced? I've been told "everything looks great" but I have a sneaking suspicion that some bushings are ready to retire.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My bushings were ok to look at, at least to my untrained eye.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

conmoto said:


> How many of these parts passed a visual inspection, but still needed to be replaced? I've been told "everything looks great" but I have a sneaking suspicion that some bushings are ready to retire.


Everything looked OK on mine as well with 147000 km on the odometer. Except for some slight damage to the upper rear control arm on the right front side. Experts judged this as being caused by too much excursion of the wheel. Below photo shows the situation: 









https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BiAUf-dv5Hg/TyRi6K78-6I/AAAAAAAAAQA/kOiIC_7GM1c/s800/2011-12-23%2520UpperrearcontrolArm.jpg

I brought it to Ron, an old friend of mine, who owns a garage and has become an expert on high quality classic cars. He showed me that the upper left control arm could actually be moved with some force, hence the metal of the bushing could rub against the mounting bracket of the strut. 

During the repair job, I took some photo's. Below, you see the partially removed arms. (the "rusty" bolt, holding both pivot pins, was a PITA to remove)... 









https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R688s1nIFko/UEz9qqpdtnI/AAAAAAAAA5g/7AQtLZ8krr0/s640/IMG_0277.JPG

Below photo says enough... 









https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tvCu49TmUOk/UEz9sQB25KI/AAAAAAAAA6A/n-hOM0OUScA/s640/IMG_0283.JPG

In the middle of the photo, the centre part of the bushing. As you can see, the rubber was completely crack, which made it possible for the control arm to move about +/- 5 mm forward and aft with respect to the normal position when new. 

On the top of the photo, the new bushing. (used for the upper front control arms). So both upper rear control arms were replaced. Below photo's show the reasons... 









https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gjv8RjQpLg4/UE0KSoICzjI/AAAAAAAAA9U/AvkkVIgEQIM/s640/20120909_222619.jpg

The top one is the right upper rear arm, with broken bushing. The pivot pins, which look perfect, were pretty worn out. Normally, the pins can be put in any position and should stay in this position. Both pins tended to return to their centre position, which is a sign of wear. Of course, this can only be determined when they are removed. 

The one on the bottom of the photo appears to have a good rubber bushing. Just take a closer look on the photo below: 









https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Nw0x6COy3_w/UE0KTWsKEQI/AAAAAAAAA9g/2AwppCalyuc/s640/20120909_222755.jpg

Not the two "holes" at the 12 and 6 'O clock positions are the problem, but the circular crack, which has started to develop between the 7 and 9 'O clock position. The entire arm, especially the one from the left, looked perfect before disassembly. 

Ron, the garage owner, told me that the upper rear ones wear out most frequently, because they have to handle most movement. He also explained that on similar (heavy) cars, like A8's, MB's and BMW's, it is quite common that these arms wear out and that it is difficult to see that it is happening, unless some sign (damage to the outside of the bonded bushing) indicates that something is going on. 

Willem


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Willem, 

Did you need to remove the suspension upright to replace the upper control arms? 

Harry


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Harry, 

We only removed what was really necessary. To get to the bolts, each holding a control arms, we used an additional hoist to lower the strut. During the entire procedure, just the three main bolts of the upper control arms needed to be removed. 
To release the strut, the 3 bolts of the wishbone shaped mounting brackets needed to be removed, of which we had removed already two prior to the removal of the pivot pin bolt and the two bolts of the control arms. Below photo shows hows the situation with the strut in lowered position: 









https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8id1gn-0CV0/UEz9vEO4yuI/AAAAAAAAA6w/j1g846KdYRY/s640/IMG_0291.JPG

And from the top, it looked like this: 








https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XXKuCWo9UGE/UEz9wUkujAI/AAAAAAAAA7I/yoJo0f1F1j0/s640/IMG_0297.JPG

We just had enough spacing to remove the two bolts of the two arms. Taking out the entire strut would have been much more work. 

Willem


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Nice write up Willem!!

I think I might be booking another ferry next year, suspension in Holland, Turbos in France, why not have another transmission fluid change in Germany?!!

The lengths one has to go to in order to preserve a Phaeton........... Perhaps VW should give us a special discount on the new one if and when it ever arrives  Or perhaps give us a couple of free pre production cars so that we can sort them out 

Stu


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

You are most welcome, Stu. But why wait until next year? On the 30th of this month, we are having another LowLands meeting in Rotterdam. When you book your car in for a suspension job near the 28th, you can join us with your "brand new steering feel" P!

See you, opcorn:

Willem


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

WillemBal said:


> You are most welcome, Stu. But why wait until next year? On the 30th of this month, we are having another LowLands meeting in Rotterdam. When you book your car in for a suspension job near the 28th, you can join us with your "brand new steering feel" P!
> 
> See you, opcorn:
> 
> Willem


Willem,

I wish!! Too much to do this year, in fact I wish I weren't driving to Croatia, we are in the process of building renovation here in UK as well as buying a new property close to Collioure id France.

Maybe next year 

Stu


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Willem,

Thanks for the extra pictures. I'm surprised that you had enough room when reinstalling the control arms to both hold them at the correct angle and torque them.

It's interesting to see that the basic VAG suspension setup hasn't changed much from the B5 Passat - especially the upper control arm pinch bolt which is a bugger to remove . This video is pretty much the route I took when doing my W8's upper control arms (unnecessarily, as it turns out...)

Harry


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

One of my control arms showed something very similar to that ding on Willem's, but it had been like that for at while, at least the last 20k miles since I first noticed it.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

invisiblewave said:


> One of my control arms showed something very similar to that ding on Willem's, but it had been like that for at while, at least the last 20k miles since I first noticed it.


In the picture below, you can see how much spacing the new control arm has between the rubber bushing and the mounting bracket. I think that there is no other cause for the damage we were having with our old upper rear arms then a fracture of the rubber.









https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Ial3lA0XOIY/UEz9sy8VfbI/AAAAAAAAA6I/HUtgGSzvE7U/s640/IMG_0284.JPG



Prince Ludwig said:


> ...I'm surprised that you had enough room when reinstalling the control arms to both hold them at the correct angle and torque them...


It is indeed surprising to see how much spacing there still is. The rear bolt could be removed almost without lowering the suspension (and pulling it forward).



> It's interesting to see that the basic VAG suspension setup hasn't changed much from the B5 Passat - especially the upper control arm pinch bolt which is a bugger to remove .


Ron, the technician, assured me that all these suspensions look the same...



> This video is pretty much the route I took when doing my W8's upper control arms (unnecessarily, as it turns out...)


That is pretty much the route which we followed. We applied a nut on the bolt before hammering, though. And for some weird reason, Ron hates pneumatic tools, so for 2x half an hour, it was just a hammering job..

Another difference is that the last thing which were tightened, were the two bolts of the control arms, after re-assembly of the mounting bracket and after bringing the suspension to the correct height. I guess this was necessary to avoid unnecessary static stress on the bushing. There was enough room for the torque wrench, on the bolt side.

Btw... I guess I still have the earliest type of struts?

Willem


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

WillemBal said:


> I guess this was necessary to avoid unnecessary static stress on the bushing.


That's why I was wondering whether you removed the full upright - VW's usual guidance is that the arms are set to a certain angle from horizontal and then torqued.

Harry


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

*Control arms*

Just replaced all 8 front control arms in my v10.. huge difference in ride quality and NVH. this is on top of doing the anti roll bar links and tie rods . there is no comparison between before and after.
has transformed the car.

a point of note for the members. on visual inspection the arms seemed fine to both our own mechanics and a tracking and alignment shop i had visited a while back. however upon removal the 
bushes were well beyond their sell by date. especially the front upper arms. there is 140k miles on my car.

without a doubt it is a job very much worth doing but of course cost comes into it. i own my own motor factors so the parts were just over half main dealer cost so it was an easy decision to replace all eight arms.. 

i asked our mechanics (for the benefit of the members here) is it feasible as a DIY job and they said yes but be mindful of supporting the air struts.. almost identical to an a8 in procedure..


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

edfitzie said:


> Just replaced all 8 front control arms in my v10.. huge difference in ride quality and NVH. this is on top of doing the anti roll bar links and tie rods . there is no comparison between before and after.
> has transformed the car.
> 
> ...... there is 140k miles on my car.
> ...


Ed:

Just to clarify for us on the "other side", that's 140k kilometers right? I would guess that any Phaeton will ideally need substantial frontend work in the 80k to 120k mile interval. So if you're in kilometers that's consistent. 

I think you are correct that a visual inspection is not going to be perfect. They may look and feel pretty good but still be in need of replacement. I think mileage may be the best guide to decide when to replace. So feedback from other owners is invaluable. Thanks for sharing info.

Jim X


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

140,000 miles


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Wow - 140k miles on a V10 no less. That"s very impressive especially since on the initial look everything seemed OK. Your results suggest the control arms and bushings are more robust than I would have thought.

Thanks.

Jim X


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the excellent info Willem. 

I think I'll have a go at mine now that I've read your posts.

I was wondering if you or anyone else has considered pattern parts, some of which I have seen are far cheaper than VW originals. I realise it may be argued that pattern parts are not as well made as originals, but since I am replacing mine after only 4 years and 68k miles, are the VW parts that good in the first place?

Also, am I correct in thinking that Lemforder are the OEM suppliers to VW for these parts ?


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## edfitzie (Dec 30, 2011)

i put lemforber in mine .. they supply most of my suspension parts,,


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Last week i went to a local specialist (Ron Batenburg) in The Netherlands, Putten (on advise of Willem Bal) who changed both upper control arms and two lower bushings. I was able to assist all day and learned a lot. It was basically a day work.

Result, nice stable car again and get rid of all crusing noises of ramps. 

Here some pics:


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## Bulbook (Feb 7, 2007)

*Upper control arm bushings*

My beloved 2004 V8 has been diagnosed with wear in the upper control arms. I do hear a slight grating noise on rare occasions and tomorrow am taking the car to the dealer. At 130k miles I do expect some expenses but I wonder if over $1800 is reasonable, I would have thought that bushings could have been replaced for less.

Any thoughts?


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Bulbook said:


> My beloved 2004 V8 has been diagnosed with wear in the upper control arms. I do hear a slight grating noise on rare occasions and tomorrow am taking the car to the dealer. At 130k miles I do expect some expenses but I wonder if over $1800 is reasonable, I would have thought that bushings could have been replaced for less.
> 
> Any thoughts?


At 130k miles the bushings have done well and it is likely a valid diagnosis. Generally VW prefers to replace the entire control arms and does not merely replace the rubber bushings. So $1800 for 4 upper control arms is probably as good as it gets at a VW dealer. However, if you were willing and able to do the work yourself, you can save a bundle. As an alternative, a "good" VW-Audi independent mechanic could probably save you some money. Tough decision if you have a good relationship with a VW shop or are trying to establish one. It's hard to desert them and then return when you have big trouble that requires the engine removal. 

Jim X


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## toaph (Nov 27, 2012)

I have the EXACT same situation with my 2004 V8. My estimate may actually have been just a little bit higher. Doing this work myself is out of the question, but there are other local VW specialists whom I think will be willing to do the work for a fraction of the cost. 

But I'm wondering, are there any air-suspension-specific issues that could get a non-dealer mechanic in over his head?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

There's a thread somewhere, with pictures, showing replacement of the upper arms, and there's another thread where someone replaced the bushings and reused the arms. There may also be places which will replace the bushings for you, the removal/replacement of the arms doesn't seem to be too difficult a job, but pressing the bushings in might be a headache. I've just changed the control arms on my 944, using rebuilt arms with new bushings, and before I sent the cores back I tried to get one of the rear bushings out without success. Replacing an entire aluminium arm because of bad bushings seems crazy to me, surely the dealers do enough of these things that they either have the equipment to change the bushings themselves or can find someone nearby who can do it for them!!!


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

An independent shop pressed in new rubber bushings for me. Since the original arms were reused, the car did not require an alignment.


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

Was the decision to replace the bushings based on noise/handling alone? Reason I ask is that mine "look fine" according to the mechanic, but I get a lot of cold morning crunch sounds. Also, having never driven a new Phaeton, I wonder if mine (140k miles) should ride a little better over bumps.

Thoughts?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Paldi said:


> An independent shop pressed in new rubber bushings for me.


Hi Fred:

Where did you get the replacement bushings? Are they generic parts (like fasteners), or are they aftermarket parts that are specifically made for a Phaeton (or any other car that uses the same size bushing)?

Michael


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## c4sey (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Michael,
I probably can answer the question on bushings. I replaced upper control arm bushings in my Phaeton three month ago. I did buy bushings from my local dealer parts department. The part number is 8D0407515C, this is front upper control arm bushing, required 4. The point is, they are available at a dealer, and are not expensive.
Casey


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Casey:

Thanks very much for that useful tidbit of information. I was not aware that it is possible to purchase only the bushing - I thought it was necessary to purchase the entire part!

Michael


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## rrussell (Sep 9, 2003)

1stvwparts.com will sell you the bushings. Trying to find a vw dealer in the Bay Area (California) to do is another problem.


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## rgestell (Sep 5, 2008)

*Upper Control Arms -- embarking on replacement*

Thanks to all contributors for a great thread -- very helpful. Just bought Moog upper control arms via rockauto.com and will replace next weekend. Friend has well equipped shop where we'll do the work. After 190,000 miles, suppose it's time. 

One question... Thinking of picking up replacement hardware, but don't find it (at least not yet) on rockauto.com, 1stvwparts.com, blauparts.com. Any suggestions? Hopefully existing will be OK, but somewhat concerned about damaging if rusted/otherwise difficult to remove. Thanks!


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## rgestell (Sep 5, 2008)

*Upper Control Arms -- All Done*



rgestell said:


> Thanks to all contributors for a great thread -- very helpful. Just bought Moog upper control arms via rockauto.com and will replace next weekend. Friend has well equipped shop where we'll do the work. After 190,000 miles, suppose it's time.
> 
> One question... Thinking of picking up replacement hardware, but don't find it (at least not yet) on rockauto.com, 1stvwparts.com, blauparts.com. Any suggestions? Hopefully existing will be OK, but somewhat concerned about damaging if rusted/otherwise difficult to remove. Thanks!


Uppers replaced in 3.5 hours with two of us working (one skilled, the other capable of mimicking). Not such a bad job. Much better ride, NVH. Still a couple of knocks. Will look at lowers next.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Have you checked the sway bar drop links?


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Had not seen this thread before.

I find it interesting most people had this sort of work done at 160,000 kms. or more. At 83,000 kms our car sounded horribly like some old farm cart and the wife gave ultimatum fix it or fix it but she wouldn't ride it anymore.

The following was done:
4 upper links $1,172
2 wishbone $ 866
2 conn link $ 130 (whatever that is)
2 bolt $ 12
2 nut $ 2
2 nut $ 3
2 screw $ 4
Labor $812
Alignment $70
Taxes

Most of the noise went away but still had a screech over bumps, so back it went for:

2 control arms
2 nuts 
2 bolts
5 hrs
$1514 total paid for this second intervention

The Audi-like problem of a bolt that had to be destroyed was found and consumed a couple of unnecessary extra hours.

Was advised W12 cars live particularly hard because of engine weight.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The "conn links" are probably the sway bar drop links.


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## rgestell (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry for delayed reply. Sway bar links were first step. Followed by upper control arms. Will do lower control arms next week.


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

WillemBal said:


> I think that this is the tool for the job:
> 
> Prior to removal of the old bushing:
> 
> ...


Where can this tool be purchased? Or who makes the best tool for this job? Im about to install tires on my Wife's V8 and there's noticeable wear on the inside edges of the tires. With my W12 past 100k miles I'm sure it's also ready.

Cantrell


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Cantrell,

Snap-on list that one. Item 3301.

Cheers,
Chris


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

Paximus said:


> Hi Cantrell,
> 
> Snap-on list that one. Item 3301.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris,
I've got a Snap on dealer within 10 miles of home.

Cantrell


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

I got a clunk in front end... only when you hit a good size imperfection...

My front end had all 4 control arms changed couple of years ago and I just recently changed the sway bar links. It still clunk but a lot less than when I first got it. 

I am going to inspect the upper rear control arm... any other possibility for the clunk? It's kind of metallic clunk.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Take a close look at the area around the bushings on the upper control arms. Before mine were changed, you could see where there'd been metal-on-metal contact due to worn bushings.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Snap-on list that one. Item 3301.


My indy garage who took care of replacement of the front upper arms has a series of aluminium cylinders with small differences in diameter. Used in conjunction with a hydraulic press, he can remove and re-insert virtually any type and diameter of bushing a lot more easy, without the need to buy specifically designed tools which can only be used for just one type of bushing.
The photo below shows the process of removal of the old bushing. It is an easy job, taking less than a couple of minutes for both removal of the old, and assembly of the new bushing.

The set of aluminium cylinders is a Snapon tool as well and seems to be widely used for this job.









https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NGjxpj6VHv0/UEz9sLNg9gI/AAAAAAAAA58/tengKgmuYCo/s640/IMG_0282.JPG

Willem


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

Paximus said:


> Hi Cantrell,
> 
> Snap-on list that one. Item 3301.
> 
> ...


I received this tool yesterday and now I'm waiting for my order of bushings to arrive. I ordered a set for each car as upon inspection it was quite obvious that replacement was past due for both cars. I'm planning on next weekend to do the first car.
I may have overlooked this question's answer but here goes, what exactly is involved for removal and replacement of the lower arm bushings as IIRC these items are much larger than the upper arm bushings?

Cantrell


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## wouterjansen60 (Aug 27, 2011)

Hee Willem, i know that Indy garage , indeed a grewt professional one. 

Cheers,
Wouter


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

*Bushing replacement update*

I started the bushing replacement on my Wife's P yesterday. Everything has come apart easily enough on the right front so far. The bushing tool noted above (item #3301) works OK on the upper control arms but is of no use on the lower control arms,hence wasted money as I'm going over to my friends house after he's competed his morning deer hunt to use his shop press to remove and install the lower control arm bushings.
From what I've seen so far this doesn't seem like a difficult procedure, although finding sockets of the correct diameter to press out the existing bushings could be challenging.

Further updates coming,
Cantrell


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

*First car finished*

I just finished the Wife's Phaeton control arm bushing replacement!
First off there was nothing really complex about this procedure. Of course I had the car on a lift which does make it lots easier vs working off the ground with jacks and stands. In changing out the bushings-upper and lower, having access to a hydraulic shop press is a must. And with that I used an assortment of 1/2" & 3/4" drive sockets up to 2.250" in size along with some VERY large washers my buddy had on hand.
I'd changed out the right hand bushings first. Once I'd reassembled that side I disassembled the left hand side and carried all 4 control arms to my buddy's shop. Since we'd already learned on the right side the socket sizes needed changing out the 5 bushings for the left side was a 15 minute procedure.
I did start spraying PB blaster at least a week before beginning on the upper pinch bolts. They came loose easily although there was no evidence they had been seized up once out 
I had a sawzall in possession so cutting the one bolt on each side was easy. I did have to remove each brake caliper to gain access to one of the ball joint bolts on each side that had to be driven down with a hammer.

The upper control arm bushings were easy to tell they were in need of replacement but the lower control arm bushings didn't look or feel as if they were worn, yet I went ahead and replaced them as I'd ordered a full set

I'll change out the bushings on my car next weekend and I'd expect a 4-5 hour time frame with my new found experience.

Cantrell


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Nice! Mine were done under warranty so the replaced they entire upper links, which was horrendously expensive and somewhat ridiculous imo. Next time, when I'm paying for it myself, I'll be doing it the cheaper way. Where did you get the bushings?


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

invisiblewave said:


> Nice! Mine were done under warranty so the replaced they entire upper links, which was horrendously expensive and somewhat ridiculous imo. Next time, when I'm paying for it myself, I'll be doing it the cheaper way. Where did you get the bushings?


I ordered from 1st VW Parts. About $300.00 per car for all front bushings- 10 total.
I didn't realize her sway bar links were as worn as they were so I've ordered a kit from Powerflex to give it a try $115.00 including shipping.
You can google search for these parts and turn up multiple avenues to get these parts. After my Powerflex order I found sway bar links for $20.xx each- Moog brand

Cantrell


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

From memory, I think the job on mine was about $2500. I did the sway bar links myself some time ago, but I think they did those again, too. The VW links weren't expensive from what I recall.


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

*Powerflex bushings*

I contacted Powerflex last week and ask them to cross reference A8 front upper control arm bushings to fit our Phaetons. They checked it out and informed me that these bushings would indeed fit our control arms. I ordered a set and installed them this weekend with no issues seen. I've not put the car on the road as I'm waiting for a CV boot to arrive
If anybody wants a set of these just ask for 2004-06 A8 front upper control arm bushings

Cantrell


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Has anyone ordered these http://www.blauparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MA11226-E Seems like a great deal for replacing the entire upper control arms (my bushings are completely gone). $400 for both sides ain't bad.


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

As per many others here, I had all the front control arms and the droplinks replaced on MY2008 3.0TDI last week. Car has 99,000 miles (160,000KM) and this has returned it to the tight, new feeling that had slipped in the past year.

No visual wear was apparent prior to the work, but VW said they was splits visible in the bushings on removal and they expected a good improvement.

For reference most of the miles were long journey motorway miles, and a lower proportion of city driving. This I would suspect that most 100,000 mile (160,000km) cars would benefit from this work.
Regards
Hugh


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## pabraham100 (Nov 8, 2011)

*How do I determine whether a suspension bushing is weak.*

Hello all.
Is there a benchmark test or measure to determine whether a bushing is week. My dealer advised me that my upper control arm bushing is weak (of course I wasn't given the basis of this determination nor allowed to observe the bushing). My independent mechanic who repairs my truck and other cars inspected and said he cannot find anything wrong. He test was mainly visual plus deforming the bush with a long screw driver to see if there is a lot of play or give. I do notice that my suspension feels a bit "loose" compared to a brand new A8 but that is hardly surprising given my car is 10 years old and 75K miles on it. The underside of my Phaeton looks pretty pristine to me - the bushings look good but that may not mean anything.

I am in a quandary on whom to believe. The dealer wants a 1000USD to change the upper control arms (he doesnt change the bushing) or listen to my independent mechanic and save a bunch of hard earned greenbacks.

Thank you for your input.
Paul


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The car will likely feel a little tighter if the control arms/bushings are changed (although on mine it wasn't really noticeable), but without more troubling symptoms, unless you particularly want to spend the money, there's not many good reasons to change them. If your independent guy has a bearing press he can remove the control arms and replace the bearings without replacing the whole arm, you can get the bushings for a lot less than the cost of a new control arm. Mine were replaced under warranty, but if I'd had to pay for it myself I wouldn't have bothered. A better investment is to change the sway bar links, it's cheaper and easier (15 minute job for your indy guy). Again, you can replace the entire link or just the bushings, I think the links are only about $100 a piece though.


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

I changed out the bushings on both of my Phaetons 2 months back and it's not difficult at all. Another reason to only replace the bushings is that an alignment is not required as your only changing the bushing and not the whole arm.

I put the Powerflex bushings in my car. I checked with Powerflex and the bushings for an A8 of like year model will work as an exact replacement.

Cantrell


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

At the end of 2013 I had all the front control arms and the droplinks replaced on my 2008 100,000mile (160,000km) 3.0tdi.

There was an immediate improvement, but on reflection and a few thousand miles down the road, I am not convinced I have fully returned to the tightness of a "new car" .

It may be my expectations were unreasonable, but I still detect a noise/ movement sensation I would have hoped to be eliminated when passing over some bumps & gratings.
I partly blame the 19" 255 tyre combination which is best on motorways, and I might change to 18" when new tyres are due in a few months.

These are the parts that VW replaced. basically all the front control arms, droplinks and associated bolts. I was a little concerned that I had to return to VW the day after the work as the droplinks were rattling and had come loose, so would I be justified in wondering if everything is fully torqued



VN 10425302	W/SHOP06 BOLT	4
VN 10576802	W/SHOP06 SCREW	2
VN 10286110	DR015 NUT	1
VN 90965602	W/SHOP06 NUT	4
V4E0407693N	N/STOCK 015782/WISHB	1
V4E0407694N	W/SHOP06 WISHBONE	-1
V4E0407151K	CONTRARM	2
V4E0407694N	WISHBONE	2
V4E0407506E	UPPER Link	1
V4E0407505E	UPPER Link	1
V4E0407509E	UPPER Link	1
V4E0407510E	UPPER Link	1
V3D0411317	CONN Link 2


Is there any suggestions, or am I being unrealistic in expecting a 100,000 mile car be be as new...
As a matter of interest, it passed 100,000 miles this morning with the usual lack of fuss. It would be good to drive a newer phaeton, but as there are no newer Phaetons in Ireland, that's difficult
Regards
Hugh
Dublin


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## pabraham100 (Nov 8, 2011)

*Check this out!.*

https://www.arnottindustries.com/part_BENTLEY_yid27_pid177.html#prettyPhoto

Anybody wants to try it out and post the results.


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

Irish Phaeton said:


> Is there any suggestions, or am I being unrealistic in expecting a 100,000 mile car be be as new...
> As a matter of interest, it passed 100,000 miles this morning with the usual lack of fuss.
> Dublin


I have an 2006 Audi A8 @212,000 miles it shares the same suspension parts - As you, I changed all 8 arms with original parts and was still not satisfied, I took it to the dealer who diagnosed inboard anti-rollbar bushes and gladly took £305 for fitting a new anti-roll-bar.
Replacing this made a huge difference for something which one expects is just to control roll.
Gone are a slight rattle, a slight creak in certain circumstances and a wobbly hysteresis sensation on ridges and sunken manholes.

It really does feel as tight as new now, and I should hope so after over £1000 spent.

This big improvement is despite the alignment and tyres not being done until next week.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Is this the anti-roll bar that connects to the drop links?


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

invisiblewave said:


> Is this the anti-roll bar that connects to the drop links?


Yes. The bushes are bonded on.
no.23 on this picture...
http://www.partscats.info/volkswage...258&bf=40705&hgug=407&ug=07&parent_id=2966796
It was not possible to diagnose it with the weight not on the wheels due to the tension.
I suspect it was sliding sideways and rocking.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Interesting! So just replacing the drop links wasn't sufficient, the bushings where the sway bar mounts to the body/fixed suspension parts also make a difference to the ride?


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## vinyin (Feb 28, 2010)

Interesting indeed, have you had the front coupling rods (koppelstangen) replaced aswell?

I myself have had replaced a lot of suspension components - all look fine btw - nothing to be seen with the naked eye. 
The symptoms I have is that the car is harsh on bad roads - at the first moment the bump comes through in a harsh manor but after that the dampers smooth it out very well set in comfort. This all feels weird. The car has run 160000km
Did yor car pull to one side slightly?
Could you describe the ride you had before the replacement of the anti roll bar?
Btw only your front anti roll bar got replaced or the rear, too?

Might be similar to what you had...


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Itzmann said:


> Had not seen this thread before.
> 
> I find it interesting most people had this sort of work done at 160,000 kms. or more. At 83,000 kms our car sounded horribly like some old farm cart and the wife gave ultimatum fix it or fix it but she wouldn't ride it anymore.
> 
> ...



Looking at that old post of mine from March 2013, I realise I failed to indicate that extended warranty paid for most of the expense above.

In addition to the above work, in March 2014 we had the CV joints replaced:

Two 3D0-498-201 Boot $144.18 total plus labor. As a wear-and-tear item, this was not covered by warranty.

I am pleased to report that one year later, the car continues to drive awesomely.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Looking at prices for the sway bar, I think I might change that as well next time I do the drop links. I found one for $238.


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

Hello,
I did the coupling rods (C Links) a couple of years ago and they still look OK (but not as new)
My car has made a creaking sound when hot in summer, I think this was the anti-roll bar buses, I disconnected the C links about a year ago, removed the plastic under tray and the antirollbar did make a quite squeak when rotated, but didn't appear loose or under-bushed. 
I replaced all 8 arms at Christmas and it improved the refinement a lot. The upper arms were shot to pieces but the original lower arms were still pretty good.
The refinement was still not how I remembered it, I would wince on cobbles or poorly filled utility tranches or sunken manholes.
A slight rattle also started to develop. 
I booked it into the dealer fearing noisy air struts, but they called and said anti-rollbar bushes are very dry and worn.
When I got the car back, not only was that slight rattle gone, but the difference was as marked as changing the 8 arms.

Car doesn't pull to one side either but is towing in too much at the moment which reduces camber following anyway.
No work done on the rear, everything is as sound as a pound back there.
I would hate to recommend you replace something that makes no difference, but mine was shot from about 190,000 miles on and the Phaeton is steel so heavier so maybe it should be considered a 150,000-180,000 mile part.

Good luck



vinyin said:


> Interesting indeed, have you had the front coupling rods (koppelstangen) replaced aswell?
> I myself have had replaced a lot of suspension components - all look fine btw - nothing to be seen with the naked eye.
> The symptoms I have is that the car is harsh on bad roads - at the first moment the bump comes through in a harsh manor but after that the dampers smooth it out very well set in comfort. This all feels weird. The car has run 160000km
> Did yor car pull to one side slightly?
> ...


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## vinyin (Feb 28, 2010)

So I got all 6 coupling rods (koppelstangen) replaced last week. Huge difference on my car. 

The suspension is really tight now and I think the suspension controller seems to use the sky hook damping strategy as a result.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Michael:

Thanks a lot for posting that follow-up report directly above.

My car is scheduled to go into the dealer this week to have the droplinks and some other front end parts replaced. Your report of great improvement encourages me. I'll try and take some pictures as the car is being disassembled and reassembled and post them here.

Michael


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## pantera1683 (Sep 11, 2010)

I am replacing my upper control arms this weekend. After I mounted the 22s on the car, I had it aligned and they couldn't get the front camber within spec. We looked at the UCA bushings and they are all shot. I am thankful for the write up on page 3 as I will be using that method for removal. I have already sprayed the pivot bolts with WD40 rust penetrant. The bolts did not seem to have much rust on them but we'll see.


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## pantera1683 (Sep 11, 2010)

pantera1683 said:


> I am replacing my upper control arms this weekend. After I mounted the 22s on the car, I had it aligned and they couldn't get the front camber within spec. We looked at the UCA bushings and they are all shot. I am thankful for the write up on page 3 as I will be using that method for removal. I have already sprayed the pivot bolts with WD40 rust penetrant. The bolts did not seem to have much rust on them but we'll see.


Mission accomplished, I successfully replaced my front upper control arms over the weekend. All and all it was pretty straightforward but those pinch bolts were a bear to remove without an air hammer. Next up are the anti roll/sway bar links.


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## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Sub Frame*

I have started to hear some strange sounds from front suspension so have decided to replace all bushings. Uppers are done and I am starting to take the lowers apart. My question is according to the Bentley repair manual I will need to lower the sub frame to remove the hex head screw that connects the lower control arm to the subframe. Is this necessary or is there an easier way to accomplish this?

Dennis


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Can someone tell me what type & size of socket I need for the three bolts that mount the front top air strut bracket to the body. Those bolts are the ones accessible in the engine bay. Here's a photo of one of those bolts:


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Pretty sure they are called "triple square" 
Common on VW for decades....


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks! Do you know what size though. The Bentley Manual doesn't list the size for it but I'd like to buy the correct socket before I start this project. Btw the manual says to replace these bolts with new every time.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

I just checked on my car and the tool labeled as M12 triple square fit these bolts..
however, a set is quite inexpensive and there are all kinds of these on the VW

for example 

http://www.princessauto.com/en/search?Dy=1&Nty=1&Ntt=triple+square 


I looked on harbour freight.. (kinda US equivalent to Princess Auto) and did not see any called "triple square" 
that being said the torx bits seem to be called "star" at HF... 

Ill never understand why the americans always try to rename stuff compared to the rest of the world.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Harbor Freight doesn't have it, probably a bit too specialized for them. There are plenty of sets on Amazon though. Now I know that the set needs to have a M12 socket. Thanks.


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## trogdor1138 (Apr 13, 2015)

Had new tires installed on my '04 V8 today and was supposed to be aligned, but the upper control arms are shredded.

I bought the full upper kits for both sides from Blauparts; heads up to anyone else looking to do this. They're offering 10% through the end of the month; that's $40 off a $400 order for both kits.

-Brandon


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## rrussell (Sep 9, 2003)

Did you installed them? Who's the manufacturer?


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## Katore (Jul 20, 2011)

trogdor1138 said:


> Had new tires installed on my '04 V8 today and was supposed to be aligned, but the upper control arms are shredded.
> 
> I bought the full upper kits for both sides from Blauparts; heads up to anyone else looking to do this. They're offering 10% through the end of the month; that's $40 off a $400 order for both kits.
> 
> -Brandon


I'm looking to purchase the same kit. Did you have it installed? Would you still recommend the kit?

Cheers,
-Rick


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I've just been reading the Blauparts catalogue that I received with their oil change kit. It says the control arms they use are manufactured by Ocap who they say are an OEM and the control arms are made to VAG OE requirements. I haven't fitted them myself, but they look pretty legit to me. I've bought their oil change kit twice, and they supply Ravenol oil which meets the VW spec and a Mahle filter.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

cbh123 said:


> Ill never understand why the americans always try to rename stuff compared to the rest of the world.


Ditto


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## rrussell (Sep 9, 2003)

I bought their timing belt and water kit 


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## hanzy88 (Jan 2, 2018)

I just had the front lower suspension arms replaced on my 2004 V10TDI, with a 350k km on odometer. The bushings were really worn, there was a loud bang whenever I hit a bigger hole in the road.

I ordered a 4 control arm kit on ebay (the link bellow). The noise is reduced almost removed, I suspect some other things might need replacing, but as I read on previous posts, every mechanic sais the bushings are OK upon visual inspection. 

But my Phaeton developed a whole new problem. The front of the car is now almost 2 cm lower than it was. I asked the mechanic who replaced the control arms, he said they fit perfectly and that they are completely the same size...
The air suspension works, I can lift and lower the car, but as it is, it's sitting lower, I noticed that while driving, and bottoming on a curb while parking confirmed it. I went and checked, the levelling sensor is connected as it should be on both sides, everything is in place.

Did the levelling computer gave up on my car or is there some reset I need to do after this replacement?
Did anything similar happen to anyone else replacing their suspension arms on their own? Since the car is old it's on the on-budget maintenance, using local DIY mechanics and a lot of my involvement.

Please I would be very grateful for any suggestions.



The link of the control arms: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-SUSPENSION-CONTROL-ARM-WISHBONE-LOWER-FRONT-LEFT-RIGHT-VW-PHAETON/382032267663?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

This might be of some assistance:

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/levelcontrol.html


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## hanzy88 (Jan 2, 2018)

Prince Ludwig said:


> This might be of some assistance:
> 
> http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/levelcontrol.html


Thank you very much!
This trick actually worked, did the reprograming on the suspension levelling control. All we needed to do was to relearn the system of the actual positions and now it's as it should be.
The mistake was made when replacing the lower suspension control arms, the airstrut should be supported and kept compressed while the control arm was replaced, but it wasn't and consequently it lost the norm parameters.

Now it's all good again 

Thanks again


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

hanzy88 said:


> Thank you very much!
> This trick actually worked, did the reprograming on the suspension levelling control. All we needed to do was to relearn the system of the actual positions and now it's as it should be.
> The mistake was made when replacing the lower suspension control arms, the airstrut should be supported and kept compressed while the control arm was replaced, but it wasn't and consequently it lost the norm parameters.
> 
> ...


I believe the bolts for the control arms are supposed to be torqued when the suspension is at normal compression (the wheels on the ground and the car at normal height).

If the bushings aren't preloaded in the "car on the ground" position, supposedly they will wear out faster. If the suspension was unloaded and extended and the bolts were torqued down, you might want to get that taken care of.


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## hanzy88 (Jan 2, 2018)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I believe the bolts for the control arms are supposed to be torqued when the suspension is at normal compression (the wheels on the ground and the car at normal height).
> 
> If the bushings aren't preloaded in the "car on the ground" position, supposedly they will wear out faster. If the suspension was unloaded and extended and the bolts were torqued down, you might want to get that taken care of.


Okay, 

sounds logical, but at the time the available lift did not support the car on its wheels, I'll try to get that sorted soon.
Thanks for mentioning it.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's pretty much impossible to do with the wheels on. Put it on the lift, take the wheels off, then jack the lower control arm to get it reasonably into position.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

About to order the parts to do these on my ‘06 W12.

Undecided if I am goin to buy new oem bushings or just get aftermarket complete arms for not much more.

It’s not like the stock parts are lasting a lot of miles anyway.


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## BazyG (Aug 15, 2018)

PowerDubs said:


> About to order the parts to do these on my ‘06 W12.
> 
> Undecided if I am goin to buy new oem bushings or just get aftermarket complete arms for not much more.
> 
> ...




Hi, i have these install over year,on my W12 its all fine, no problem . https://www.ebay.com/itm/302746322005

I look on stock parts and ebay parts from germany its same, no diference .


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

PowerDubs said:


> About to order the parts to do these on my ‘06 W12.
> 
> Undecided if I am goin to buy new oem bushings or just get aftermarket complete arms for not much more.
> 
> It’s not like the stock parts are lasting a lot of miles anyway.


I went with new TRW parts on 3 of my Phaetons and they seems to last fine. I prefer new parts because you don't have to worry that the ball joints are worn out like you do if you just do the bushings. TRW is the OE for those parts and on the front lower forward control arm (the cast iron one) you will see that if you buy the TRW part it has the Audi logo ground off but is the exact same part you get through the VW dealer. They are pretty reasonably priced, I bought most either through Amazon (sold by Amazon not through an Amazon Marketplace seller) or FCP Euro.

Word of advice, I know yours is an '06 but both my '04 W12s had a leaking diff flange seal on the LH front where the LH front axle goes into the diff. Check if you have some fresh oil (diff oil, not transmission fluid!) in the area of the transmission wiring harness right below the axle just inboard of the suspension subframe. Parts are pretty cheap but you have to remove the front strut and lower the subframe by an inch to slide that flange out. I think I posted some photos in a thread somewhere on here.


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## Melvivio (Feb 12, 2017)

Tried to replace just the bushings, with the control arms still on the vehicle. Didn't work for me, had to remove the complete arm in the end. So for the next time.. I'll order the complete control arms, and swap everything. 
When doing the control arms, it is advised to renew the bolts and nuts as well.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I am down in the garage right now. The older I get the less time I have to play with my vehicles.

I am on the right hand side of the car, which is where I am getting the thump from when I hit a bump.

Car has 50K on it. I do not know if the control arms are original, the one I can see is stamped TRW.

I know that the records showed the transmission was replaced somewhere around 20,000 miles. So who knows what else they had done. If I am not mistaken, to put in a new transmission requires pulling the engine and transmission.

From what I can see on the arms on this side, and using my prybar on them to move them around they all seem fine.

I am going to remove the drop link first and take a look at that as it seems to be at a weird angle to me, although I have no experience with these so that may just be because the car is up in the air with the sway bar in the fully down position.



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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

The lower front control arms on 8486 had visibly deteriorated inboard bushings. I think it had less than 90K miles at the time.

I checked Rock Auto just on a whim and they have all sorts of options from generic cheap to genuine VW:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...6.0l+w12,1433191,suspension,control+arm,10401


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I also need to look at my lower arms. I replaced the bushings on the upper arms (without removing them from the vehicle) with the purple poly bushings which are wearing well but require regular lubrication to stop them squeaking. What I'm getting now I wouldn't describe as a thump, but there's definitely a noise that I can feel occasionally. The drop links are fairly new, so it's either the lower arm bushings, the sway bar bushings, or the ball joints.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

So was looking around, reading about all the different brands out there. 

If you look on rock auto, then realize there are even more options than what was shown there.

I decided to replace the entire arms, as I won’t know the condition of all the ball joints until I get everything ripped apart.

And that made me buy the better arms as the ball joint on the cheaper arms is where they will cut cost and longevity.

So ordered lemforder for the top 4 arms, and TRW for the lower 4 because although lemforder makes the lower 4 they aren’t available anywhere in this country that I could find.

I don’t have my old ebahn workshop software anymore (always wished they still make books!) so can anyone give me a rundown on the replacement procedure? 

Thanks!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I've only done upper arm bushings, and I posted a detailed procedure for it which is probably somewhere in this thread. The complications I know about are the bolt on the body side of the lower control (and make sure you buy the steel version, not the aluminium version which I think the A8 uses), and the pinch bolts on the ball joints. Ratcheting ring wrenches are very handy on the upper control arms, I forget the size but I think they're 17mm, since there's not much clearance between the body and the side of the strut. Getting the strut to clear the lower control arm is MUCH easier if both sides of the car are on stands, so the sway bar is unstressed.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

From the looks of it, I need to remove the shock and it’s mount had to access the bolts up top? Even if I get the nuts loose it doesn’t look like there’s enough room to slide the bolts out with everything where it is.

Also this looks like it is going to be a balancing act to support the weight of the rotor, caliber, and upright as I am replacing the various arms as to not stress the steering rack.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's been a while, but can't you just do the lower arm first, then when that's in place to support the vertical member, swap out the upper arms? The strut itself is actually very simple to remove, but you may not even need to remove it completely. The three top bolts are triple-square (single use, supposedly), and they hold the bracket that the top of the strut and the control arms both attach to. The strut is held to the bracket by three (or four) 13mm nuts which you can access once you've removed the three top bolts. This is much easier than you're thinking it is, I suspect. There's an access issue with the bolt holding the lower control arm to the cross member, if I remember correctly people have refitted it with the bolt the other way round for easier access to the nut in future. For refitting the strut, check my write-up. Getting it positioned correctly to get the lower control arm bolt in is the only fiddly part. Last time I did it, I got the strut out and back in on my own without much difficulty.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I've done three complete front suspension jobs by now. It's a pretty straight forward job but there are some important tricks and tips:


The upper pinch bolt can be tricky, go about it very carefully so you don't break it. Get a new one and make sure you use anti-size on it (W12 uses a different bolt than the V8s)
Remove the lower forward CA first, that way you can drop the air strut straight out. I modified a ball joint separator from Harbor Freight, I posted details about it in one of the other front suspension threads
You will have to cut the bolt that attaches the lower forward CA to the subframe due to clearance issues. Use a sawzall with a good metal blade and have a replacement bolt ready
Remove the air strut with the upper mounting bracket or you won't be able to get the bolts for the upper control arms in. Also makes it easier tightening those bolts with the CAs in the correct position (see manual)
You will need to tighten all the bolts to the final torque values with the car sitting at ride height. This is hard to do due to ground clearance issues and the need to have a good sized torque wrench to achieve some of those high torque values and there's not enough space for leverage. Since you have a lift you can put some sturdy blocks under the wheels when you set it down to get a few more inches of ground clearance. I'd leave the lift arms in place as a safety though.

Btw, the Bentley manual wasn't that great but the full ErWin repair instructions in pdf form are hosted somewhere on here, I believe invisiblewave had them at one point. I actually found an issue with the Bentley manual when it came to the torque value for the bolts that attach the air strut top bracket to the body (using the M12 triple square bolts) Bentley listed it at 90 Nm plus 90 degrees but the correct value is 50 Nm plus 90 degrees. Nearly ruined one of my brackets.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> You will need to tighten all the bolts to the final torque values with the car sitting at ride height. This is hard to do due to ground clearance issues and the need to have a good sized torque wrench to achieve some of those high torque values and there's not enough space for leverage. Since you have a lift you can put some sturdy blocks under the wheels when you set it down to get a few more inches of ground clearance. I'd leave the lift arms in place as a safety though.


There are Hub Stands that bolt to the hubs and take the place of jack stands. They are a bit pricy but give you clearance to torque the suspension at ride height. The car will be tilted as if it was heading up hill (unless you have all four hubs lifted) but the height difference would probably be negligible. 

You can also use ramps but then you have to leave the wheels on.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> There are Hub Stands that bolt to the hubs and take the place of jack stands. They are a bit pricy but give you clearance to torque the suspension at ride height. The car will be tilted as if it was heading up hill (unless you have all four hubs lifted) but the height difference would probably be negligible.
> 
> You can also use ramps but then you have to leave the wheels on.


Hub Stands are an option but I usually just jack it up at the lower forward control arm just below the attachment point of the air strut. Keep in mind that this only works if you have no air in the strut which would be typical if you removed it and reinstalled it.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Hub Stands are an option but I usually just jack it up at the lower forward control arm just below the attachment point of the air strut. Keep in mind that this only works if you have no air in the strut which would be typical if you removed it and reinstalled it.


Yeah, but you want air in the strut because you want the suspension to "think" it's on the ground. You also have to be careful jacking on the suspension because the car can fall off the jacks or jackstand especially if you are torqueing a bolt. 

I put jackstands under my Buick's front suspension to take off the wheels but it's a straight axle and I didn't get under the car.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I would even go as far as to set the suspension at your "normal" setting before torqueing the bolts if you want the most accurate results. On mine, I would set it at the highest setting. 

I don't know how important it is to the overall life of bushings but our control arms are very, very expensive especially if you get genuine VW parts. It sucks that the ball joints aren't replaceable.

I can get a basic front end kit for my 1977 Ford LTD II from Kantor for $199.00 (they don't list a price for a deluxe kit):

https://www.kanter.com/ecatalog/00010.html

By "basic", I would assume they mean the Standard Ball Joint Type:

https://www.kanter.com/ecatalog/0000cc.html

Those kits don't include A-Arms but the ball joints on most A-Arms are replaceable.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Yeah, but you want air in the strut because you want the suspension to "think" it's on the ground. You also have to be careful jacking on the suspension because the car can fall off the jacks or jackstand especially if you are torqueing a bolt.
> 
> I put jackstands under my Buick's front suspension to take off the wheels but it's a straight axle and I didn't get under the car.


I should have been more clear. I don't jack the car up that way, I have a lift so the car is off the ground already and then I use a jack to just lift the individual hub and without air in the struts you only lift the weight of the hub, not the car. 

The reason for having the CAs in the ride height position is so that the rubber bushings are not pre-tensioned like they would be if you torque the bolts with the front suspension just hanging in the air. I measure the height from the wheel/hub center to the fender (the same way you would if you do the suspension adaptation procedure) before I start and then jack up the hub to the same position after the air strut is back in.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> I should have been more clear. I don't jack the car up that way, I have a lift so the car is off the ground already and then I use a jack to just lift the individual hub and without air in the struts you only lift the weight of the hub, not the car.
> 
> The reason for having the CAs in the ride height position is so that the rubber bushings are not pre-tensioned like they would be if you torque the bolts with the front suspension just hanging in the air. I measure the height from the wheel/hub center to the fender (the same way you would if you do the suspension adaptation procedure) before I start and then jack up the hub to the same position after the air strut is back in.


Now I understand. 

It's been a while since I used a hoist (Military Auto Hobby Shop) but back then I seem to remember that the really good hoists were the ones you drove on and some of those had separate pads you could use to jack the suspension separately.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

BOINK
















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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Found the source of my clunk.












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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

PowerDubs said:


> Found the source of my clunk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


which arm is it? Is the other side the same?

Graham


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Passenger side. Haven’t done the driver side yet.

I couldn't tell the bushing was bad until I removed it. Pried with a pry bar- seemed ok. Once out, fell apart completely!

Like anything, I am sure I can do the other side faster than it took me to do this side – but it is still a pain in the butt to do all these arms.











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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

That's pretty well destroyed. Looks like TRW part no JTC1039/1040 for anyone else reading this.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

What mileage is this at? Pretty sure mine need doing!


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Car has 50k on it. If I remember correctly from records, prior owner- trans was replaced at about 20k, so probably engine out- but who knows what else they did. Probably still original arms.

The new trw arms all match 100% to the arms I removed. Same stampings on the metal and rubber- just the vag logo ground off.




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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, I'll add this to my list of jobs when the heat and mosquitoes abate. I'm at 126k now, and there's definitely a noise that I can't find any other reason for.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

PowerDubs said:


> BOINK
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I want this tool! What is it and where did you get it? 

Paul


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

richmondvatdi said:


> I want this tool! What is it and where did you get it?
> 
> Paul




The one I have is- https://vw.snapon.com/SpecialToolsDetail.aspx?itemId=19920108

I saw this one too- https://vw.snapon.com/SpecialToolsDetail.aspx?itemId=4910108 which looks like it might be a little wider.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Back down in the garage. Anyone have any thought on upper angle specs?

Both of the arms on the first side I am doing are larger gap than this, and also reversed as to which is larger/smaller spacing.











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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

To anyone that thinks they need ‘factory / dealer’ parts- upper arm comp. 











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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

From an early age, well before I was even able to legally drive a car I had an understanding of attention to detail.

I have always fixed things myself, and also have been aware of how others whether due to just not caring or being under the time constraints are paid more for how quickly they can get the job done may not address things the same as how I do.

I understand that the rubber bushings have a limit to their deflection before they tear, but the specification from the factory and expecting anyone to do the same way when replacing is absurd.

I should have taken a picture of the pre-existing arms before I took them apart, but this is my best ability and judgment taking as much time as needed to put them where the paper advised minus my car being lowered to European specs as opposed to the US service manual.











Needless to say the arms are removed from the car had a much greater discrepancy between the two, and actually had them opposed in the opposite direction as far as Hite is concerned. 

Either the manual is wrong, The original install at the factory was wrong, or they have been replaced prior to my purchase of the vehicle they did it wrong. Who knows?? 

All I know is what I can read in the book and do it to what that says.

Uggh.

Why they even use bushings that are under constant tension is beyond my knowledge? While I’m not advising aspherical roller bearing, there could easily be some sort of a hybrid of a rubber bushing for NVH, in a rotating sleeve to avoid the tearing BS.




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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Amusingly, it is also entirely possible that the friction from the inner sleeve in the bushing simply slipped off of the friction applied moving them to where they naturally wanted to be.

Which would crack me up, that the engineers had one idea but 5400 pounds had another.


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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

PowerDubs said:


> Back down in the garage. Anyone have any thought on upper angle specs?
> 
> Both of the arms on the first side I am doing are larger gap than this, and also reversed as to which is larger/smaller spacing.
> 
> ...


The measurements that are off are from the ones you took off the car right?

Graham


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I used the specs per the manual on the last few rebuilds and don't recall an issue with that except that it's difficult to measure correctly as you have found out. What I do remember is that once you have them installed you will need to push the control arms down against the force of the bushing to get it to go into the wheel bearing housing (spindle). 

Alternatively you could temporarily mount the air strut mounting bracket (without the strut installed) to the body and then get the wheel bearing housing (spindle) to the correct ride height (European or NAR) by measuring from the hub center to the underside edge of the fender, insert the upper control arms in the spindle, put the pinch bolt in so they are in the correct position, then tighten the control arm inner bolts to the air strut bracket. That way you would make sure the bushing are not under load when the car is at the desired ride height.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

PowerDubs said:


> Why they even use bushings that are under constant tension is beyond my knowledge? While I’m not advising aspherical roller bearing, there could easily be some sort of a hybrid of a rubber bushing for NVH, in a rotating sleeve to avoid the tearing BS.


I had the same dilemma Josh, so I replaced the rubber bush with a Powerflex bush. This allows the arm and bush to rotate to its natural position without putting the rubber (actually polyurethane) under any tension. 
Robbie.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> I had the same dilemma Josh, so I replaced the rubber bush with a Powerflex bush. This allows the arm and bush to rotate to its natural position without putting the rubber (actually polyurethane) under any tension.
> Robbie.


I did the same thing. My only complaint with them is that they need to be regularly lubricated otherwise they squeak going over slow bumps.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

What do you guys who have been down this road think of these for a complete set?:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WISHBONE-S...143133105702?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

The manufacturer is LST.


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## BazyG (Aug 15, 2018)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> What do you guys who have been down this road think of these for a complete set?:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WISHBONE-S...143133105702?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
> 
> The manufacturer is LST.


Is manufactured by China .. 

I has same from this seller https://www.ebay.com/itm/302746322005 i buy year ago and now i time change again , i looking for something like this https://syncrodesignworks.com/colle...n/products/mercedes-w204-upgraded-thrust-arms bud only BMW or Mercedes... 










https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volkswagen-control-arm-kit-phaeton-meyle-hd-512117 good quality set .


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Meyle are good if you're going aftermarket.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

BazyG said:


> Is manufactured by China ..


OK, I guess I missed that in the translation. I already have a complete Chinese set I never installed. 

Thanks.

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

TRW is the original manufacturer and they are readily available either on Amazon or FCP Euro. Lemförder is also of good quality and, same as TRW, is part of ZF.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> TRW is the original manufacturer and they are readily available either on Amazon or FCP Euro. Lemförder is also of good quality and, same as TRW, is part of ZF.


I have two TRW control arms on 8486. I had to buy them individually. I think I bought them from FCP Euro or from eBay. 

I suspected Lemförder was good quality but sometimes the aftermarket slaps a foreign sounding name on something.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I don't think there is a set for the TRW parts but somewhere on here, maybe in this thread, I posted all the part numbers. Only the drop links I got from VW.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> I don't think there is a set for the TRW parts but somewhere on here, maybe in this thread, I posted all the part numbers. Only the drop links I got from VW.


I saw that post. I probably copied it down somewhere safe. I remember the drop links had to be bought from VW to make sure they were correct.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I remember the drop links had to be bought from VW to make sure they were correct.


If I remember correctly, there is an entire thread devoted to the drop links.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I saw that post. I probably copied it down somewhere safe. I remember the drop links had to be bought from VW to make sure they were correct.


Post #14:

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...ol-arm-kit&p=87805016&viewfull=1#post87805016


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I bought new arms last summer- all are factory with the logo ground off sold under other names and a LOT cheaper.

I’ll see if I can dig up the info when I get home.


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## ravenflies (Oct 31, 2013)

Lemförder is actually the brand that VW uses apart from the lower arms that is TRW. Lemförder parts are sold much cheaper through other suppliers but with the VW/Audi logo grinded off as the license agreements don’t allow them to sell VW/Audi parts other then through the VW/Audi spare part organisation.

Lennart


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

PowerDubs said:


> I bought new arms last summer- all are factory with the logo ground off sold under other names and a LOT cheaper.
> 
> I’ll see if I can dig up the info when I get home.
> 
> ...


I saw that post today. It's post #189 in this thread.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I started an entire new thread (like a newbie) about TRW back in 2016 when I replaced some control arms on 8486:


https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8133754-Tip-about-control-arms


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Back in the garage doing the driver side arms now. Here is the lower rear arm part #











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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Post #14:
> 
> https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...ol-arm-kit&p=87805016&viewfull=1#post87805016


Ah, that was way back when I did my very first front suspension rebuilt on the Phaeton, have a few more under my belt by now 

Back then I hadn't used the TRW parts yet so didn't list those part numbers but here they are now:

Front UPPER Control Arms:
LH Forward TRW Part # JTC1136
LH Rearward TRW Part # JTC1138
RH Forward TRW Part # JTC1137
RH Rearward TRW Part # JTC1139

Front LOWER Control Arms:
LH & RH Forward TRW Part # JTC 1224 includes correct ball joint nut
LH Rearward TRW Part # JTC 1039 includes correct ball joint nut
RH Rearward TRW Part # JTC 1040 includes correct ball joint nut

Steering Tie Rods:
Steering Tie Rod End, Outer TRW part# JTE1095
Steering Tie Rod End, Inner TRW part# JAR1002


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Those are the lower arms I used. At the time I ordered them last summer they were cheapest on Amazon 

For the uppers I used- 


LEMFÖRDER	2702701	
LEMFÖRDER	2702901	
LEMFÖRDER	2703001	
LEMFÖRDER	2702801

Which at the time were cheapest on RockAuto (don't forget they always have a coupon code for 5% off as well)


All the arms were factory with the logo ground off.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*About to begin*

A couple weeks ago, I bought and installed the complete Meyle HD front suspension kit from FCP Euro on my B5.5 Passat (mini-Phaeton). It was a dry run for the real deal. The Passat work wasn't too bad, primarily because my Passat is a Texas car and rust is a non-issue. I am still amazed every time I crawl underneath that car. It literally looks like it just came home from the dealer.

The Phaeton, on the other hand, will probably be much less fun as its first 13 years were spent rolling across the salt-covered roads of Indianapolis and Pittsburgh and has plenty of visible rust to show for it. I recently ordered and received FCPEuro's Meyle HD kit for the Phaeton. Here it is: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volkswagen-control-arm-kit-phaeton-meyle-hd-512117 It looks to be very good quality (similar to the B5.5 kit). All components are Meyle HD with the exception of the Front Lower Control Arms (TRW) and the sway bar links (Meyle, not Meyle HD) but they were clearly noted as such in the FCPEuro description.

I put the front end on jack stands this weekend, removed the wheels, and started applying PB Blaster to every fastener. I'm going to take my time and continue to spray for several days in order to minimize the amount of cursing and gnashing of teeth once the wrench-turning (or attempted wrench-turning) commences. 

But now that a barrel of West Texas Intermediate has dropped to $0.01, this is the time the Phaeton should be racking up cheap and carefree miles instead of sitting disassembled in the garage. 

I'll be sure to give some progress updates once I get started.

Paul


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Good luck with it. Remember that the upper pinch bolt is probably going to be the make-it-or-break-it moment. If you get that bolt out then the rest is going to be pretty straight forward.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Good luck with it. Remember that the upper pinch bolt is probably going to be the make-it-or-break-it moment. If you get that bolt out then the rest is going to be pretty straight forward.


Yes, I'm definitely aware that the pinch bolt is the key to success. That's why I'm spraying it down every day and giving the housing a couple good whacks with the hammer to try to break up the rust. I figure if I can do this for a good week before I start, I might have a fighting chance.

And on the Passat, cutting those two lower control arm bolts with the die grinder was not a whole lot of fun either.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I used a SawzAll


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Agreed, for the inner bolt on the lower forward control arm a Sawzall with a Diablo Steel Demon blade is the way to go, 2 minutes and you are done.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Progressing Nicely*

I decided to do one complete side at a time and started on the left. After a week of PB Blaster and tapping on the housing, on Saturday morning I was ready to tackle the dreaded "pinch bolt". I had a second cup of coffee, psyched myself up, and grabbed my hammer. I barely even touched the end of the bolt and it slid right out. Amazing. So far the other pinch bolt (on the outer tie rod end) proved to be MUCH more difficult requiring several attempts at heating and then pounding with the 4-lb. sledge before finally releasing. And I still have yet not been able to get the tie rod off. Jamb nut finally gave up the fight last night and is backed off, but the tie rod is still rusted and frozen and will not budge. I'm afraid to heat this one as I don't want to damage the inner tie rod. 

I did take the advice of several of you and used the Sawzall on the inner bolt of the front lower control arm. Definitely much easier than the cutoff wheel on the die grinder. 

On the upper arms, in one write-up or Youtube video the guy said he replaced one arm at a time so he could put the new one back in the same position that he removed the old one. Well, in my case that wouldn't have worked in that the old arms were nowhere near the specified position found in the manual. If I can remember how to post pictures, I'll show you some shots I took of the before and after. Quite surprising.

Some pics. I tried to take them from the same angle so that you can see the relative differences in position/angle.

Old setup: https://bit.ly/2YbR7sY

New set-up (per spec): https://bit.ly/3aJt07x


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I noticed mine were nowhere close to the manual either. I mentioned it above.

I put them to what the manual says. Time will tell.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Outer tie rod frozen*

I'm in a difficult spot right now. The outer tie rod end is rusted and frozen to the inner tie rod. I've used lots of PB Blaster over a couple weeks, a 4-lb. hammer, and heat with no luck. You need to hold the inner tie rod end with an open end wrench (20mm?) with the left hand while trying to turn the outer tie rod end with the right hand. Because of the awkward location, it's very difficult to get any leverage and the 20mm wrench is starting to round out the tie rod end hex.

I'm going to take another run at it tomorrow but I'm not optimistic. If it won't loosen, I think my next option is to remove the entire steering rack to get better access to the connection between the inner and outer, and try to break it loose out of the car. Removing the steering rack in my B5.5 Passat was a PITA, and I can't imagine the Phaeton being any easier. 

If that won't work, then it gets interesting (and expensive). You can buy the outer tie rod or you can buy a "set" that includes inner and outer, but I've already paid for the outers in the set I bought. (I can't find a p/n for just the inner. If anyone has a p/n for inners, let me know.)

The last ditch option is to get a remanufactured rack (which includes new inner tie rods). That reman rack runs around $450 at rackdoctor.net. I bought a reman rack for my Passat from him and it worked out great, but replacing a perfectly good steering rack with a remanufactured rack makes me a little nervous.

Anyway, that's my story...


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

The inner tie rods are available individually and I think your best way to get out of this situation is to remove the inner tie rod, all other options are going to be a huge headache in comparison. If the dust boot on the inner tie rod is still intact you shouldn't have a problem with corrosion on the that part.

I've changed the inner tie rods on my high-miler Phaeton and it's actually not that difficult if you have the right tools. You need a 38mm crowfoot (I used a Sunex 97438A 1/2-Inch Drive 38-mm Jumbo Crowfoot Wrench, about $16 on Amazon), use with a long drive extension so that you can use a long breaker bar (I recommend 3') outside of the wheel housing. Make sure the extension is in a straight line with the steering gear so it doesn't slip. I put the end of the drive extension on top of a jack stand so it was supported right were you put all the force of the breaker bar. Keep in mind that you are supposed to put thread locker on the new tie rod so I assume it has thread locker from the factory => believe me, it needs a lot of force to break loose! 

Of course first you have to remove the dust boot by removing the spring clip on the outer end and then cutting the ear clamp on the inner end. Then you have to move the dust boot outward and hold I out of the way from where the crowfoot wrench goes (you can't remove it since you still have the outer tie rod attached), I used small bungee cords to pull the boot towards the outer tie rod end. After you put the new inner tie rod in you'll have to put a new ear clamp on the dust boot, this was actually the trickiest part of the job for me as there is not much space to get the crimper in there. You could go with a zip tie (I've found that on the old one) or a screw clamp if you don't have the ear clamp pincher. 

Here's the parts I used:
Inner Tie Rod: TRW part# JAR1002, about $50 usually, looks like FCP Euro has it for just $23 right now
Ear Clamp for Inner Steering Tie Rod End Boot: N-105-752-01	
Ear Clamp Tool: Oetiker HIP 2800 E Compound Action Side Jaw Pincer (comes in handy for other various ear clamps like on the front axle CV boots)


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

richmondvatdi, have you tried using a mapp gas torch (or oxyacetylene) on the joint then cooling it quickly with water ?


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> richmondvatdi, have you tried using a mapp gas torch (or oxyacetylene) on the joint then cooling it quickly with water ?


Yes. That's exactly what I've been trying. However, I'm concerned about heating too much. I obviously don't care about the Outer getting overheated and ruined, but I don't want to ruin the Inner. And unless I cut the clamp and slide the boot back, I will never know if I've ruined the swivel joint on the Inner, and even then I'm not sure if I can tell for sure just by looking at it.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> The inner tie rods are available individually and I think your best way to get out of this situation is to remove the inner tie rod, all other options are going to be a huge headache in comparison. If the dust boot on the inner tie rod is still intact you shouldn't have a problem with corrosion on the that part.
> 
> I've changed the inner tie rods on my high-miler Phaeton and it's actually not that difficult if you have the right tools. You need a 38" crowfoot (I used a Sunex 97438A 1/2-Inch Drive 38-mm Jumbo Crowfoot Wrench, about $16 on Amazon), use with a long drive extension so that you can use a long breaker bar (I recommend 3') outside of the wheel housing. Make sure the extension is in a straight line with the steering gear so it doesn't slip. I put the end of the drive extension on top of a jack stand so it was supported right were you put all the force of the breaker bar. Keep in mind that you are supposed to put thread locker on the new tie rod so I assume it has thread locker from the factory => believe me, it needs a lot of force to break loose!
> 
> ...


This is really great information. Thanks very much. I ordered the 38mm crowsfoot and a 24" long 1/2" extension. However, how confident are you that's the correct inner tie rod p/n (TRW JAR1002)? When I view it on the fcpeuro website as well as ecstuning, it says it fits an Audi A8 but does not fit my 2004 Phaeton W12. I believe the suspensions on the two cars are basically interchangeable, and if I look up the Phaeton Inner Tie Rod on PartsGeek, the photo looks very much like the TRW JAR1002.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If I remember correctly, I think I ended up removing the inner tie rod on the side that was frozen.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> This is really great information. Thanks very much. I ordered the 38mm crowsfoot and a 24" long 1/2" extension. However, how confident are you that's the correct inner tie rod p/n (TRW JAR1002)? When I view it on the fcpeuro website as well as ecstuning, it says it fits an Audi A8 but does not fit my 2004 Phaeton W12. I believe the suspensions on the two cars are basically interchangeable, and if I look up the Phaeton Inner Tie Rod on PartsGeek, the photo looks very much like the TRW JAR1002.


I'm pretty sure it's correct for the W12 also. I installed it on my V8 but I believe the complete steering gear is the same for all Phaetons. If you check the original VW part (inner & outer tie rod) it uses the same part # for V8 & W12, see this link.

On the official TRW site it also lists it as compatible with the W12 and V8 Phaetons: link


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> richmondvatdi said:
> 
> 
> > This is really great information. Thanks very much. I ordered the 38mm crowsfoot and a 24" long 1/2" extension. However, how confident are you that's the correct inner tie rod p/n (TRW JAR1002)? When I view it on the fcpeuro website as well as ecstuning, it says it fits an Audi A8 but does not fit my 2004 Phaeton W12. I believe the suspensions on the two cars are basically interchangeable, and if I look up the Phaeton Inner Tie Rod on PartsGeek, the photo looks very much like the TRW JAR1002.
> ...


That settles it. They've all got to be the same. Placed my order with FCP Euro.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> That settles it. They've all got to be the same. Placed my order with FCP Euro.


:thumbup: Keep us posted on your progress!


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> :thumbup: Keep us posted on your progress!


So the Inner Tie Rods from FCP Euro appear to be identical to the ones I removed, so that's good news. The crow's foot wrench, extension, and breaker bar made quick work of removal and installation. I must say though that the jackstand is KEY to keeping the wrench exactly where it needs to be as you apply the needed torque. 

Left side is complete and I'm now on to the right side. Once again the control arm pinch bolt wasn't too bad and the tie rod end pinch bolt was very difficult. PB Blaster for weeks, heat/quench, pounding with sledge, repeat. It finally gave up last night.

I've come to a crossroads now with the air strut removed, ready to replace the upper control arms. The shock's accordion cover (sleeve, boot, bellows or whatever you want to call it) is pretty badly torn. (I posted about it yesterday.) I have a new one that I managed to source on Amazon of all places, and I would love to install it while the front ind is all taken apart. Problem is I don't know how to disassemble the bottom end of the shock in order to slide it off. Any advice would be welcome.

Paul


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> So the Inner Tie Rods from FCP Euro appear to be identical to the ones I removed, so that's good news. The crow's foot wrench, extension, and breaker bar made quick work of removal and installation. I must say though that the jackstand is KEY to keeping the wrench exactly where it needs to be as you apply the needed torque.


Glad it worked out. I came up with the jackstand idea after struggling to keep the extension in line with the steering gear, works beautifully that way.




richmondvatdi said:


> I've come to a crossroads now with the air strut removed, ready to replace the upper control arms. The shock's accordion cover (sleeve, boot, bellows or whatever you want to call it) is pretty badly torn. (I posted about it yesterday.) I have a new one that I managed to source on Amazon of all places, and I would love to install it while the front ind is all taken apart. Problem is I don't know how to disassemble the bottom end of the shock in order to slide it off. Any advice would be welcome.


I've never done that myself but I think the large nut on top of the strut keeps it all together. There are a few threads on that topic. If you do end up going that way take a few photos, I saved all the struts from my parts car and plan on rebuilding those one day.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Did you buy a rebuild kit- or just a boot?

Should be similar to these videos, I already 'fast forward' to near where you should watch-

https://youtu.be/I5VX3lSssGY?t=237

https://youtu.be/C3aQVq8zwLU?t=152


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

richmondvatdi said:


> I've come to a crossroads now with the air strut removed, ready to replace the upper control arms. The shock's accordion cover (sleeve, boot, bellows or whatever you want to call it) is pretty badly torn. (I posted about it yesterday.) I have a new one that I managed to source on Amazon of all places, and I would love to install it while the front ind is all taken apart. Problem is I don't know how to disassemble the bottom end of the shock in order to slide it off. Any advice would be welcome.
> 
> Paul


Well done so far.
There are a couple of threads on how to do this (one by me somewhere and one by _Taz_ ). From memory of a couple of years ago, you need to remove the top mount (4 screws) then remove or cut off the connector socket at the top of the strut. 
You then get a large swan neck ring spanner on the top nut and undo it. This is easier said than done as you have to hold the strut tightly as you undo this large nut - I cut a hole in a plank of wood and attached the strut to it to give leverage. A large vice would also do.
The top of the strut (the airbag container) then separates from the damper and you can replace the bellows.
Good luck, it took me a lot of effort. p.s. Make sure the strut is depressurised before doing this.

To be honest, after pulling struts apart to try to fix bits, if I ever have a problem again, I'll just buy a full Chinese copy off ebay (again).


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Well done so far.
> There are a couple of threads on how to do this (one by me somewhere and one by _Taz_ ). From memory of a couple of years ago, you need to remove the top mount (4 screws) then remove or cut off the connector socket at the top of the strut.
> You then get a large swan neck ring spanner on the top nut and undo it. This is easier said than done as you have to hold the strut tightly as you undo this large nut - I cut a hole in a plank of wood and attached the strut to it to give leverage. A large vice would also do.
> The top of the strut (the airbag container) then separates from the damper and you can replace the bellows.
> ...


Thanks for the how-to. Honestly, I'm not sure if I'm up for all that to replace that cover. With rebuilt ones selling for $655 a pair, I may just put it back together and replace the pair once one fails. It will depend on whether or not I already have the right wrench for that top nut when I get home tonight. If I have to buy another tool, there's a 99% chance the shock's going back in with the rip in the cover. 

The shock on the other side is a slightly different style in that it doesn't have that steel canister thing hanging off the side at the bottom and it looks like the bellows/cover thing could be slid right off the bottom without disassembly.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Another- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKujK_pK-Os


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

richmondvatdi said:


> The shock on the other side is a slightly different style in that it doesn't have that steel canister thing hanging off the side at the bottom and it looks like the bellows/cover thing could be slid right off the bottom without disassembly.


Really ??  I did not know that was possible. I thought ALL Phaetons had an Auxiliary Accumulator attached to each strut. That is what all the diagrams I have ever seen display. If it is some sort of after-market strut, does your suspension handle correctly - surely not.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

richmondvatdi said:


> The shock on the other side is a slightly different style in that it doesn't have that steel canister thing hanging off the side at the bottom and it looks like the bellows/cover thing could be slid right off the bottom without disassembly.


That could be an aftermarket one, looks like the new Arnott struts have a revised design without the reservoir:
https://www.arnottindustries.com/products/volkswagen-air-suspension/phaeton/d1-chassis/2004/as-2892-arnott-new-front-right-air-strut-03-19-bentley-continental-gt-d1-06-19-flying-spur-d1-03-06-vw-phaeton-d1


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Then Paul's left strut must have different spring characteristics compared to the right if one has the accumulator missing.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Don't the Arnott struts have variable damping or something? I don't believe you can mix them.

Also, I read somewhere that a tear in the outer boot very quickly leads to damage to the inner bladder. Worst case scenario is that it starts leaking though, and you have to replace it anyway. As far as I know, unless there's a problem with the damper, there's no need to replace air struts in pairs like conventional springs.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> Don't the Arnott struts have variable damping or something? I don't believe you can mix them.
> 
> Also, I read somewhere that a tear in the outer boot very quickly leads to damage to the inner bladder. Worst case scenario is that it starts leaking though, and you have to replace it anyway. As far as I know, unless there's a problem with the damper, there's no need to replace air struts in pairs like conventional springs.


The brand new Arnott manufactured struts don't have adjustable damping - unless they changed since I talked to them. They are adjustable for height but not stiffness. 

I am tempted to try some of those cheap brand new struts on eBay but they would have to be adjustable. 

It would be awesome if VW sold rebuilt struts (or a company sold rebuild kits).


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

The left is an Arnott (no accumulator) and the right is from Rebuild Master Tech (with accumulator). If there's a difference in how they perform, then my ******* arse clearly is not sophisticated enough to discern any. The shock covers cost me all of $31 for the pair so I thought it was worth changing them while I was in there instead of waiting for the shock to die from ingested grime.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I said that if I needed to buy a new tool there was a 99% chance that the old, ripped cover would be going back on. Well, the 1% prevailed and my brand new $99 set of offset wrenches arrived in the mail today. I can't believe I've lived so long without owning offset wrenches. I disassembled the shock and replaced the torn cover with the new one. The aftermarket replacement is SO much better quality than the paper-thin one that was on there before: https://bit.ly/2zoDU5V. With a little bit of magic using mini needle-nose vice grips and a tiny screwdriver, I was even able to return the old ear clamp to nearly-new condition and reuse (re-clamp) it. (After an hour of internet searching, I had no clue where I could find a new one.)

Now moving on to the rest of the suspension refresh.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Good job!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

I got it all put back together and aligned and everything feels good. Steering is definitely tighter and no loud clunks over bumps. There is an almost-imperceptible clunk (or maybe clunk is too strong a word) over certain bumps in the road. Since I have never driven this car with a brand new suspension, I am not sure if that is just the way the suspension sounds. I wanted to replace the two bushings that hold the sway bar to the underside of the car (since they are literally the only component that is not brand new). However, it does not appear that those bushings are sold separately. I know this suspension is very similar to that of the B5.5 Passat since I just changed that one too. The rubber sway bar bushing is available as a standalone part on the Passat and sells for less that 10 bucks a piece. Does anyone know if this bushing is available as a separate item for the Phaeton or do I need to buy the entire sway bar for $200+. (And do we even know for sure that a new sway bar comes with those bushings and clamps?)

Paul


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

The sway bar bushings are bonded to the sway bar so unfortunately you have to buy the whole thing. I think the sway bars are different between the V8 and W12 if I remember correctly.

Btw, I'm in the middle of replacing the whole front suspension on my recently acquired 43k miles W12 and it's amazing how deteriorated the bushings are just from age. I think it didn't help that this one had custom 20" steel wheels from new which I have since replaced with OEM wheels.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

Phaetonlvr said:


> The sway bar bushings are bonded to the sway bar so unfortunately you have to buy the whole thing. I think the sway bars are different between the V8 and W12 if I remember correctly.
> 
> Btw, I'm in the middle of replacing the whole front suspension on my recently acquired 43k miles W12 and it's amazing how deteriorated the bushings are just from age. I think it didn't help that this one had custom 20" steel wheels from new which I have since replaced with OEM wheels.


That's what I was afraid of. I think I'll just leave them for now. It's still a huge improvement and well worth the time, money, and effort. Really feels like a completely different car.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Just finished changing the lower control arms. My symptoms were a clunk on sharp braking and intermittent high speed vibration that varied with steering input. The problem was the rear arm on the driver's side. Like Josh's pictures, not visible with the arm on, but the centre of the bushing moved freely, ball joints seemed ok. This was at 130k miles, I think those rear arms have a lifespan of round 100k.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

invisiblewave said:


> Just finished changing the lower control arms. My symptoms were a clunk on sharp braking and intermittent high speed vibration that varied with steering input. The problem was the rear arm on the driver's side. Like Josh's pictures, not visible with the arm on, but the centre of the bushing moved freely, ball joints seemed ok. This was at 130k miles, I think those rear arms have a lifespan of round 100k.




My car has 53k on it. And the bushing fell out in pieces- oddly, only on the passenger side. The driver visually was fine.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Well done Martin. 
Did you have to drop the subframe a bit to get the inner bolt out ? I vaguely remember cutting the bolt out, then replacing it from the other direction as the subframe was in the way.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

PowerDubs said:


> My car has 53k on it. And the bushing fell out in pieces- oddly, only on the passenger side. The driver visually was fine.


#jerseyroads. I'd expect the nearside to go first, like with the struts, but mine was ok, some play in it but nothing like the driver's side.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Well done Martin.
> Did you have to drop the subframe a bit to get the inner bolt out ? I vaguely remember cutting the bolt out, then replacing it from the other direction as the subframe was in the way.


I did the same, cut them and installed new bolts. The dealers seem to carry them in stock, they had the front bolt but not the rear. Both forward arms appeared to be fine still.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> The sway bar bushings are bonded to the sway bar so unfortunately you have to buy the whole thing. I think the sway bars are different between the V8 and W12 if I remember correctly.
> 
> Btw, I'm in the middle of replacing the whole front suspension on my recently acquired 43k miles W12 and it's amazing how deteriorated the bushings are just from age. I think it didn't help that this one had custom 20" steel wheels from new which I have since replaced with OEM wheels.


There used to be companies that could vulcanize stuff (like boot soles). I seem to remember there being vulcanizing services for the automotive hobby also. 

You would think somebody could make new bushings and vulcanize them onto our sway bars. 

I might check out services in Hemmings to see if such a service still exists. 

Are you going to use a suspension kit like the one from FCP Euro?


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Are you going to use a suspension kit like the one from FCP Euro?


On the one I just finished (low miler brown W12) I used all TRW parts (except for Meyle drop links) since I had those on my shelf for a while for my silver W12. In two weeks I'll finally do another full front suspension job on the silver W12 (was delayed because previous owner's mechanic rounded off the front diff oil fill plug which prevented me from changing the seal on the diff flange. I found a way to extract that plug though so I'm good to go now). This time I'm using a combination of TRW and Meyle parts, upper and lower forward control arms are TRW, lower rearward and drop links are Meyle. Quality seems to be the same as far as I can tell.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I also have TRW uppers, one lower was TRW, the other Lemforder (forward I think). The lower TRW had the VW part number but with the Audi symbol ground off. I've been running the Meyle droplinks for a while now and the bushings still looked good on them when I took them off for this job. I used Meyle control arms on a BMW I fixed a couple of years ago, and for the price point the Meyle parts seem to be excellent quality.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

AFAIK the lower forward one (steel) is only available from TRW and is the OE part with the Audi logo ground off. Even the complete Meyle set from FCP Euro has that one from TRW. I was going to go with that kit but shopping from multiple places with a combo of TRW and Meyle was significantly cheaper so I did a mix and match this time. Keep in mind that the Meyle CAs have all the hardware while TRW only has it on the lower CAs and only the ball joint nut. TRW parts came from Amazon (prices fluctuate wildly on those parts from day to day), Meyle from RM European and FCP Euro, Hardware from 1stvwparts.

Regarding the Meyle drop links, they are the correct thickness and hole size but there is a very minor difference the metal part of the bushing that contacts the sway bar has a larger OD on the VW original part which means it has more contact surface area to resist moving I guess. It's not a big difference but noticeable if you have the parts next to each other.

The Meyle lower rear control arms (the one with the large inner bushing) is slightly different also in that the large bushing does not have those rubber inserts that the VW original as well as the TRW has.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You're right, I checked my order, both lower arms were TRW.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

I also sourced from many places and saved a ton. Amazon- (use the keepa plugin for price tracking) as well as Rock Auto, and I think Ebay if memory serves correctly.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Total cost of the lower arms, with tax & shipping was just over $500 from FCP.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Are those factory parts?

If so, you beat me- I just pulled up my receipts (TRW and Lemforder- so exact same as the car rolled out of Germany with)

I paid $570.62 last summer.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Being curious- I just checked current pricing on the same parts again from Amazon and Rockauto and it looks like the total would be about $30 cheaper right now if anyone is about to tackle this job.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

PowerDubs said:


> Are those factory parts?
> 
> If so, you beat me- I just pulled up my receipts (TRW and Lemforder- so exact same as the car rolled out of Germany with)
> 
> I paid $570.62 last summer.


OEM, TRW. Came with the Audi symbol ground off. Looking at the fronts, they don't seem to take anywhere near as much of a beating as the rear.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Here's what I paid when I ordered 2 weeks ago. Of course 3 days after I put the order in the JTC1138 dropped from $82 to $60 on Amazon. I've bought the lower forward ones for as low as $80 on Amazon before but I couldn't wait any longer this time. Of course I also made sure to hit the minimum order for free shipping on FCP Euro and RM European.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> OEM, TRW. Came with the Audi symbol ground off. Looking at the fronts, they don't seem to take anywhere near as much of a beating as the rear.


On two of my W12 as well as on the high miler V8 it was the Lower RH front CA where the bushings were shot completely to the point that the arm was rubbing on the subframe. The lower rear were in better shape usually, probably depends on driving style and climate as mine all came from hot dry areas and the rubber generally doesn't last as long there.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It doesn't get much hotter & drier than where mine's been for the last ten years.... Weird that there would be so much variation. Maybe the rear arms had previously been changed? Mine were definitely original, only the uppers had been changed before.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I got no explanation why it's so different between cars. What's consistent is that the upper control arms are all getting worn out a lot earlier than the lower ones. I assume this has to do with those being shorter and therefore getting more rotation on the bushing end.

The lower rearward ones were original VW parts on all of my cars and none of them had them worn out to the point that they fell apart on removal. I have the service history on all the cars I have so I'm pretty sure those were still the originals installed at the factory.

Regarding the lower forward ones I had to replace those on two of mine and on a third one it had been replaced the month before I got it.

'05 V8, 154k miles when I bought it, was in Los Angeles area since new










'04 W12, 43k miles when I bought it recently, was a Scottsdale, AZ car from new, had aftermarket 20" steel wheels from new, those were pretty heavy so that could explain it


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Wow, that's WAY worse than on mine at 130k. The rear ones are a problem, even if you look closely it's impossible to see if the bearing is in good shape. For the uppers, I put poly bushings in and they've been fine ever since, the only issue is that you need to lubricate them every now & then to stop them squeaking (you can only hear it at very low speed anyway).


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I just got in the habit of replacing ALL front suspension control arms (not just the bushings) at the same time. Over the last few years I have done 3 complete front suspension jobs and one with just the bushings (the first one). At the end of the day $600 - $800 in parts for a whole front suspension job is a lot of bang for the buck if you have the capability to do the work yourself which I fortunately have.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I just hate throwing away the entire arm, particularly with the uppers. The ball joints all seem to be very robust, and switching just the bushings means you don't have to mess about with the pinch bolts.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

You certainly have a point about not wasting the whole arms and that was the reason I only replaced the bushings on my first suspension job but of course that car had 154k miles on it at the time and eventually ended up doing the complete job again with new CAs. I'd say if your pinch bolt comes out easy than I'd definitely go with complete new CAs, if they are rusted in place then for sure just do the bushings. I got lucky on most of mine since they are all dry weather state cars except for the parts car which was from the Mid West and were I couldn't extract one of the pinch bolts ... I sure was glad that was on the parts car!


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