# VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive......



## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

...... how much traction can you actually get?
I mean my little Mk2 with standard OBD2 VR6 motor and plus suspension from the MK3 certainly grips plenty, very little wheelspin and no LSD(yet) but I am planning on Turbo and feel that 350-400bhp is where I want to end up with otherwise it's not really worth it.
So how well do they put it to the ground, I do not want wheelspin until 3rd/4th gear and I am not going to run big tyres either as it's a daily/circuit car.
Or should I sell up and do the turbo in something 4wd?


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*

300+whp will get you wheel spin in 2nd. I was using 215 Falken Azenis which are Autocross tires on my VRT and they spin all the time. At around 400whp 3rd starts to spin. VRT + FWD is just kinda stupid if ya ask me. My next VRT build is AWD. No way I'd do FWD again.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*

Gear based boost control helps.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (Jeebus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jeebus* »_Gear based boost control helps. 

x2
And so does a proper suspension/alignment/LSD.
350whp is not bad in a street car, but the VRs make a lot of tire spinning torque


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## BoostedDubVR6T420 (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah, even with an LSD I find it hard to keep the tires planted through 3rd gear. You just got to know how to pedal it.


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (CDJetta)*

300+whp will get you wheel spin in 2nd. At around 400whp 3rd starts to spin. VRT + FWD is fun but irritating My next VRT build is AWD. No way I'd do FWD again unless my goals are 300 or less


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*

ever though about a supercharger? def more traction than a turbo because of the lack of torque, but still will give you good gains. you could get a good 300whp out of a v1 without going crazy on it. just throwing this out there if your gonna be worried about traction a lot


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (mk4vrjtta)*

I have built about 8 Rotrex powered cars in the past(Peugeot/Citroens when in the UK) and I totally see the benefits of Supercharging in FWD due to smooth power delivery etc........ can you sense it...... however(haha







) I really fancy a turbo now for a few reasons, one being future power.
I am hoping to build this engine to a nice reliable spec and then shift it between chassis if need be. So maybe start in the MK2 and then in to either an older Audi Quattro or an A4 Quattro.








I just love the VR6 and it's opportunities for power you see.


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*

i hear ya, its just with fwd having over 350hp kinda sucks with traction. but with quattro....


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_I have built about 8 Rotrex powered cars in the past(Peugeot/Citroens when in the UK) and I totally see the benefits of Supercharging in FWD due to smooth power delivery etc........ can you sense it...... however(haha







) I really fancy a turbo now for a few reasons, one being future power.
I am hoping to build this engine to a nice reliable spec and then shift it between chassis if need be. So maybe start in the MK2 and then in to either an older Audi Quattro or an A4 Quattro.








I just love the VR6 and it's opportunities for power you see.

this is exactly the idea i got from the internets, build a vrt in an mk3 then move it to an a4. 4-500 awhp has got to be awesome.


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## Bthornton10 (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (guy022077)*

Yeah I am doing the same. I am looking for a Audi s4. AWD is where its at. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (Bthornton10)*

The #'s here are pretty accurate. 205/50/15 Falken Azenis 615's, peloquin lsd, and Koni coils and ~10psi ~300whp is about the limit in 2nd gear. I get no wheelspin in 3rd or 4th. A 3.38 R&P would likely fare a little better.
It is what it is. There is only so much torque a FWD w/ small tires will hold. Look at how OE manufacturers build big power cars. RWD and huge rear tires or AWD, traction control, if turbo torque limit/lower boost in first gear, etc.
I still think a 10psi, stock compression setup owns on the street. All the power you can put down so you're using everything you paid for.
I don't drive that fast on the street anyway and slicks take care of traction at the track so FWD still works for me


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (slc92)*

SC is better for traction sure, but why? You aren't making any torque. Prius's have no traction problems either.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

You shouldn't be complaining about wheelspin....
Add's on the fun, a while ago a friend of mine thought he had me with his 1.8T mk4, untill i found traction( -5 degrees celcius outside) and smoked him







should have seen the look on his face afterwards


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## schimt (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (Jeebus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jeebus* »_Gear based boost control helps. 

who makes a gear based boost control setup?


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

i believe aem


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## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (pimS)*

from my research the apexi avc-r is one of the better units out there...takes a bit of time and effort to install and program though...
can be found on ebay for ~400 clams


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_You shouldn't be complaining about wheelspin....
Add's on the fun, a while ago a friend of mine thought he had me with his 1.8T mk4, untill i found traction( -5 degrees celcius outside) and smoked him







should have seen the look on his face afterwards

Exactly. Learning to harness all that grunt effectively is half the fun of powerful FWD imo http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Sometimes you can get some really satisfying hook ups when you master that perfect throttle judgement








Anyone can get in a AWD and push the throttle to the floor. Where's the fun and challenge in that?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Exactly. Learning to harness all that grunt effectively is half the fun of powerful FWD imo http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Sometimes you can get some really satisfying hook ups when you master that perfect throttle judgement








Anyone can get in a AWD and push the throttle to the floor. Where's the fun and challenge in that?










I think his point may be what's the sense in making all the power if you can't put it to the ground until 4th gear.
Throttle modulation is great and will stop wheelspin, but you are essentially just decreasing the power to the wheels. So you make 500whp, but have modulated the throttle to make 300whp=why not just make 300whp.
The fun w/ AWD is you can actually put that power down and feel it in your 0-60 which is 5mph shy of the top speed here in the US. Certainly not everyone's outlook, but it's a point worth considering before building a high HP car. Especially a street car. Slicks cure alot of traction problems at the track


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## schimt (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Slicks cure alot of traction problems at the track









hahah and help contribute to transmission/drive train problems http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: (schimt)*

That's just because VW trannies blow goat anus.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (schimt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *schimt* »_
hahah and help contribute to transmission/drive train problems http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Not as much as you might think. They do break axles, but actual gears seem to break much more often w/ street tires or drag radials due to wheel hop.
I've seen alot of street 02A's go w/ 300-400whp and alot of drag raced/slicked O2A's last w/ 400-500whp so I don't think slicks are that hard on the trans.
Only 320whp, but no issues at all on 22" slicks for 3 years







I realize they aren't the biggest slicks and I never ran that low an air pressure but still good for 1.81 60's


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (slc92)*

Being fast @ 100-160 is important to


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_Being fast @ 100-160 is important to









On the street and in the US it sure is. If you like losing your license and/or going to jail then it's all the rage.
AWD and RWD cars can go fast from 100-160 too http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*

It all depends on your setup. I have full traction in 3rd gear in my 500whp vrt, and full traction in 1st and 2nd on the low boost switch.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
I think his point may be what's the sense in making all the power if you can't put it to the ground until 4th gear.
Throttle modulation is great and will stop wheelspin, but you are essentially just decreasing the power to the wheels. So you make 500whp, but have modulated the throttle to make 300whp=why not just make 300whp.
The fun w/ AWD is you can actually put that power down and feel it in your 0-60 which is 5mph shy of the top speed here in the US. Certainly not everyone's outlook, but it's a point worth considering before building a high HP car. Especially a street car. Slicks cure alot of traction problems at the track









Hmmmm, that's a dumb argument. That's like saying what's the point of making a whole cake when you can only eat one slice in one go? I mean, do you drive everywhere with the throttle either fully on or fully off or something? Throwing arbitary whp numbers around is pointless as that tells you nothing about the grip levels of the car.
You've obviously never been in a powerful AWD or RWD that spins it's wheels easily either. My mate's 400whp Evo IX used to light up all 4 wheels quite easily, but he didn't deem that pointless and turn the boost down, he enjoyed the power it made and the challenge of finding traction. Or is enjoyment not allowed in your world?
And further more, you argue that 300whp is 'enough', and yet you can't even legally even hit 60mph as quickly possible anyway, so why have you got 300whp? 100whp will get you to 55mph. 10whp will get you to 55mph.


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

can someone thats driven a vr6t with stock diff and then upgraded to lsd advise on the differnce in traction when your giving it some.... ive just ordered a lsd plus ive never driven a car with one fitted


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (slc92)*

Over here you don't go to jail for speeding.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Hmmmm, that's a dumb argument. That's like saying what's the point of making a whole cake when you can only eat one slice in one go? I mean, do you drive everywhere with the throttle either fully on or fully off or something? Throwing arbitary whp numbers around is pointless as that tells you nothing about the grip levels of the car.
You've obviously never been in a powerful AWD or RWD that spins it's wheels easily either. My mate's 400whp Evo IX used to light up all 4 wheels quite easily, but he didn't deem that pointless and turn the boost down, he enjoyed the power it made and the challenge of finding traction. Or is enjoyment not allowed in your world?
And further more, you argue that 300whp is 'enough', and yet you can't even legally even hit 60mph as quickly possible anyway, so why have you got 300whp? 100whp will get you to 55mph. 10whp will get you to 55mph.

1) I drag race at a drag strip. That's why I had 320whp and will have ~420whp this year in a FWD car. I put all of it down.
2) AWD or RWD w/ a decent size tire will hold more power than a FWD w/ 205-225mm wide tires. That's the truth. If you don't believe me then ask OE manufacturers why they don't build high HP FWD cars.








Anything else you don't understand just ask http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 
Dumb? Standalone, a Schimmel SRI and AWIC setup for 350whp. Enough said


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (schimt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *schimt* »_who makes a gear based boost control setup?

You can also PM BoostinBejan, he built a simple one using the N249 and N112 solenoids http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Dumb? Standalone, a Schimmel SRI and AWIC setup for 350whp. Enough said









Though I agree the AWIC is overkill, but I'd love to see a properly tuned standalone car making 350whp to your chip tuned 350whp, then you will see how dumb it actually is








To the OP, buy a turbo with a large hot side. I liked my 60-1 with a .81 hot side, lots of top end and kept wheel spin as minimal as possible. 



_Modified by The Yoda at 1:47 PM 3-22-2010_


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (The Yoda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Yoda* »_
Though I agree the AWIC is overkill, but I'd love to see a properly tuned standalone car making 350whp to your chip tuned 350whp, then you will see how dumb it actually is








To the OP, buy a turbo with a large hot side. I liked my 60-1 with a .81 hot side, lots of top end and kept traction as minimal as possible. 

_Modified by The Yoda at 2:06 PM 3-16-2010_

Umm, 350whp is 350 whp








I know how dumb it is everytime I look at the $3-$4k in my bank account that I saved by doing a chip tuned, stock manifold, cxracing intercooled car that will run fast enough to get told to leave tracks this year for not having a roll bar.
More is only better if you can use it. I don't need more so standalone, an SRI, and awic was a waste for me. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*

FWD is a lot of fun....and so is making 500HP. Initially you may think the traction problem may take away from your fun but it is easily controlled if you choose to do so. A two stage boost controller with low boost set at 15PSI and high at 22-25PSI will solve a lot of problems run low boost for 1st and 2nd gear and high boost thereafter - easy as pressing a button. It is true that you cannot apply all 400-500HP in 1st and 2nd gear - but it is still a lot of fun (Ask anyone who owns a VR6-T and a grin develop ear to ear). BTW - if you go AWIC you will never go back to air-air.


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Umm, 350whp is 350 whp








I know how dumb it is everytime I look at the $3-$4k in my bank account that I saved by doing a chip tuned, stock manifold, cxracing intercooled car that will run fast enough to get told to leave tracks this year for not having a roll bar.
More is only better if you can use it. I don't need more so standalone, an SRI, and awic was a waste for me. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 


well 350whp is not quite 350 whp
350 whp 125tq is not the same as 350whp 425tq not saying that AWIC is better im just commenting on not all whp being equal in regards to driving the car. [email protected] is not the same as [email protected] either.


_Quote »_
FWD is a lot of fun....and so is making 500HP. Initially you may think the traction problem may take away from your fun but it is easily controlled if you choose to do so. A two stage boost controller with low boost set at 15PSI and high at 22-25PSI will solve a lot of problems run low boost for 1st and 2nd gear and high boost thereafter - easy as pressing a button. It is true that you cannot apply all 400-500HP in 1st and 2nd gear - but it is still a lot of fun (Ask anyone who owns a VR6-T and a grin develop ear to ear). BTW - if you go AWIC you will never go back to air-air. 

I agree with this, i have my boost set to 13psi and it is very drivable, now 25psi is not but it is still fun to smokey burnout every once and a while.










_Modified by guy022077 at 9:47 AM 3-17-2010_


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (guy022077)*


_Quote, originally posted by *guy022077* »_

well 350whp is not quite 350 whp
350 whp 125tq is not the same as 350whp 425tq not saying that AWIC is better im just commenting on not all whp being equal in regards to driving the car. [email protected] is not the same as [email protected] either.

I agree with this, i have my boost set to 13psi and it is very drivable, now 25psi is not but it is still fun to smokey burnout every once and a while.









_Modified by guy022077 at 9:47 AM 3-17-2010_

I don't know what your talking about. No one said anything about TQ or powerband








350whp is 350whp.


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## Amsterdam087 (Dec 31, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*

lets keep this going. 
i don't have a vrt, but i really enjoy reading this stuff. 
maybe someday after my 16vt goals are achieved.


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## schimt (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: (Amsterdam087)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Amsterdam087* »_lets keep this going. 
i don't have a vrt, but i really enjoy reading this stuff. 
maybe someday after my 16vt goals are achieved.









you would have so much more fun driving one then reading about them!


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (schimt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *schimt* »_
who makes a gear based boost control setup?

As stated APEXi AVCR. That's the one I went with, cars not running yet for this season but it will be soon. There's a lot to setup with the AVCR but the features are endless. The biggest feature for me was the gear based boost control. 
Talking about traction issues... when I ran my 020 tranny I could boil the tires off the car on the highway in 4th gear, and that was only with 297whp. When I switched to the 02A it would still burn through 3rd gear like it was first but in 4th it was a different game. I'm shooting for 400+whp this season hence why I picked up a boost controller to do gear based boost control to help with traction. However... the car is going AWD so this is just to get me by until then.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (Jeebus)*

you can add a 2 stage boost control and run low boost in 1st and 2nd gear, go to high boost for 3rd and up, I am sure that a lot of you guys that are not hooking in 2nd and 3rd gear with let say 350 -400 WHP are not using good drag radials tires. if you are planing on builting a turbo vr6 and using a regular 225 tires you will have problems hooking up in 4th with 400WTQ . also a lot of people that has no traction are getting full boost between 3300 RPM - 3700RPM, the boost comes in brutal







, you need to go easy on your tranny and your tires if you guys are planing on running around 370WHP and 370 WTQ and up. you need a 2 stage boost control to help you on your traction problem and good drag radials tires when you go out racing or slicks if going to the track. forget these 225 regular tires and lowering you car like 3''







these tire will have to be W I D E if you are thinking in having traction. you need to stiff the suspension up, good alignment in the front, stiffer back suspension, I am sure you all have an idea on that already. but a lot of guys here like to have low profile tires and a 3''drop stance







traction wont happen like that. you can have traction in 2nd gear with 450 WHP and 450 WTQ but who want to put wide tires and go way from the 3'' low stance look







pick what you like better, traction or stance, you need a turbo to give you full boost after 4400 RPM if you are planing to take your car to the red line when you are racing. if you planing to get 500 WHP and close to that # in torque, I think that your tires are going to have to come out of the fender line. any one looking for good traction drag tire I will say get a MT drag radial. now don't ask me how I now all this, yes my stick out of the fender line and yes I drive on the street and no it is not my daily drive. if I were you get a cheap set of front wheels I put some wide drag radials on them. 




_Modified by zwogti at 5:41 AM 3-20-2010_


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

Ok, thanks for all the opinions there guys.
My main uses for the car will be day to day driving and some track work(maybe the odd quarter mile but really don't care about that).
With that in mind what sort of turbo size am I looking for, I don't want a smaller turbo with massive torque and then death at top end, but I don't want to have huge revs all the time in daily driving to get it to go anywhere.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_Ok, thanks for all the opinions there guys.
My main uses for the car will be day to day driving and some track work(maybe the odd quarter mile but really don't care about that).
With that in mind what sort of turbo size am I looking for, I don't want a smaller turbo with massive torque and then death at top end, but I don't want to have huge revs all the time in daily driving to get it to go anywhere.

for the 350 WHP - 400 WHP get a t-4 with the back house in 80's (82,84,86) full boost will be around 4300RPM depending on your setup and you will still have room for a little more power if you want. there is a lot of different turbo brands out there. pick the one that you like better. I like turbonetics, but here you will see a lot people talking about Precison, bullsay, Gerrett and the list go on but I can't see my self paying double the price for a ballbearing turbo. I understand that they come with ceramic bearings and spool up before the regular bearing 200 RPM or so but it will be 2X more $$$. if you want an early spool just get a small back house like a 69 and full boost will be around 3700RPM. just keep in mind if something happen with the ballbearing turbo and it need replaciment you could have got 4 regular turbos in place of 2 ballbearing ones. it all depends how much $$$$ you have around to play. you can find a very good brand new turbo for $700 - $850 depending on the brand you like. as the faster the turbo spool up the better clutch you will need, with a vr6 motor it will be all about the torque no metter what you do.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (zwogti)*

350-400whp t4 .69 unless it's a racecar. I wouldn't want a higher powerband on the street, but everyone is different.


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_350-400whp t4 .69 unless it's a racecar. I wouldn't want a higher powerband on the street, but everyone is different.

Would C2 30# Software support 300whp?
Your spec looks about perfect for what I want right now. And with 30# I can stay with standard MAF yes?


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_
Would C2 30# Software support 300whp?
Your spec looks about perfect for what I want right now. And with 30# I can stay with standard MAF yes?

right from the website...... doesnt say whp but hp is 300.
? Our Stage 1 EPROM along with 30# injectors is all you will need to support 300hp in your OBD1 car.
Use stock MAF housing.
Use stock FPR.
Distributor and coil pack versions available


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: (guy022077)*

If the subject car is a MK1 VR6T then even 300 HP will be a handful - those cars are very light - even when compared to a MK3. Gonna need some big tires... Even so, you will want more power later - everyone does!








The 0.69AR will spool earlier - I'm not sure if that helps traction/throttle modulation, maybe someone else will chime in?


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (guy022077)*

I hate it when I ask dumb questions....








But I have now read their site, I am OBD2 so require a 95mm housing for MAF it says.


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (IHookItUuup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IHookItUuup* »_If the subject car is a MK1 VR6T then even 300 HP will be a handful - those cars are very light - even when compared to a MK3. Gonna need some big tires... Even so, you will want more power later - everyone does!








The 0.69AR will spool earlier - I'm not sure if that helps traction/throttle modulation, maybe someone else will chime in?

Sorry I am now in a MK2, will update my profile.


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_I hate it when I ask dumb questions....








But I have now read their site, I am OBD2 so require a 95mm housing for MAF it says.

they mean it too, i had a small maf and my car ran like ass...i had to make a 4 incher and all is well


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (guy022077)*


_Quote, originally posted by *guy022077* »_
they mean it too, i had a small maf and my car ran like ass...i had to make a 4 incher and all is well

So just make a housing of 4" for my standard MAF? Damn 4" is a BIG intake!!! Then reduce it down to the turbo inlet size.


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (IHookItUuup)*

So do we all think this turbo would be too small, even if I went for 30lb Setup, Standard compression 300whp first?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4812352


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## CoopaCoopaCoopa (Apr 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated
I'm sure you've all seen this..just making sure you know awd is fun. The vrt into an s4 or a4 quattro is really spendy though..


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: (CoopaCoopaCoopa)*

I'm working on mine right now!







Wondering if they are using BB or journal bearing 6765.


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (CDJetta)*

My entire thinking on vr6 Turbo is that when I have it running well I may ditch my MK2 shell and put the engine in something Quattro.


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_
So just make a housing of 4" for my standard MAF? Damn 4" is a BIG intake!!! Then reduce it down to the turbo inlet size.


yes, that is what i did.


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_My entire thinking on vr6 Turbo is that when I have it running well I may ditch my MK2 shell and put the engine in something Quattro.









yup, this is what i am doing, inspired by usp


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_My entire thinking on vr6 Turbo is that when I have it running well I may ditch my MK2 shell and put the engine in something Quattro.









if I were you I would go with C-2 stage 2 and a good size turbo...as if you put the vr6 into a quattro car later you will raize the boost to make up for all the xtra weight. everyone start with a small turbo and little boost but always up grade later for a bigger size because they want a little more power. if I were you I would go straight to stage 2. just lower the boost to 300WHP but you will have a lot more power just by raizing the boost. even the ones here saying that they don't need more power always end up adding more in the future. do your self a favor and get a stage 2 for future use. just lower the boost.


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: (zwogti)*

Everybody wants 4WD, I suppose because it is easier to drive fast? You will need big power if you plan on running an S4 - very heavy car - so you better get the C2 630 tune. Don't forget there are plenty of FWD cars running in the 9s!?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (IHookItUuup)*

Traction on the street and traction at the strip are 2 different things. 
You'll get to enjoy your big power legally at the strip w/ a proper sized slick, lsd, suspension, etc. Slicks are the great equalizer. 
On the street, you can run whatever boost controller you want, but you will get owned 0-65 vs. awd and rwd even if you have more power b/c you'll be limited in what you can put down in 1st and 2nd. FWD fanboys can argue that all day if they want. Weight transfer, contact patch. Period.
3rd and 4th are different stories of course







However, by that time you are speeding on public roadways which isn't cool. Except maybe late at night on the highway w/ no other cars around. At least you'll only hurt yourself








FWD is the worst platform for big power. That being said, it's still alot of fun and can be VERY fast. It's just lmited on the street mainly to 3rd and 4th gear pulls. My car came fwd so that's what I built. If I had my choice though awd, rwd, fwd in that order.
IMO, big power FWD only if you drag race and plan to use slicks. Or if you drive like an azz whole on public highways










_Modified by slc92 at 10:07 PM 3-21-2010_


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_Traction on the street and traction at the strip are 2 different things. 
You'll get to enjoy your big power legally at the strip w/ a proper sized slick, lsd, suspension, etc. Slicks are the great equalizer. 
On the street, you can run whatever boost controller you want, but you will get owned 0-65 vs. awd and rwd even if you have more power b/c you'll be limited in what you can put down in 1st and 2nd. FWD fanboys can argue that all day if they want. Weight transfer, contact patch. Period.
3rd and 4th are different stories of course







However, by that time you are speeding on public roadways which isn't cool. Except maybe late at night on the highway w/ no other cars around. At least you'll only hurt yourself








FWD is the worst platform for big power. That being said, it's still alot of fun and can be VERY fast. It's just lmited on the street mainly to 3rd and 4th gear pulls. My car came fwd so that's what I built. If I had my choice though awd, rwd, fwd in that order.
IMO, big power FWD only if you drag race and plan to use slicks. Or if you drive like an azz whole on public highways









_Modified by slc92 at 10:07 PM 3-21-2010_

I agree entirely with that.
I have built and been in 900kg FWD cars with 220whp and they put it to the ground great round a track or on road as long as you were in 3rd gear or above.
Then I have been in AWD cars with 350bhp that once rolling were no quicker than above FWD car but from standstill or slow corners it was a no contest event.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: (slc92)*

I think my car pulls very good in 1st and 2nd to be a front wheel drive, just get the right drag radials tires, yes I am one of these late night azz whole sometimes here and there....but who will get in to a race from 0-65







I never see anything like this happening around Florida... maybe I guess it is just here that they don't do that







even in a 1/4 mile you will put way over 100MPH. take off kind slow but you may still get to the end in 1st










_Modified by zwogti at 4:28 AM 3-22-2010_


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_
I agree entirely with that.
I have built and been in 900kg FWD cars with 220whp and they put it to the ground great round a track or on road as long as you were in 3rd gear or above.
Then I have been in AWD cars with 350bhp that once rolling were no quicker than above FWD car but from standstill or slow corners it was a no contest event.


True. Little FWD's can do some damage on 3rd and 4th gear pulls or at the strip on a proper slick. I gave plenty of big power cars a handfull at the track w/ only 320whp. 
However, take some OE factory cars that run high 11's ~120mph (same as I do), but let's do 0-60 w/ me on street tires.
It's a no contest. That 1/4 mile and trap correlate to low-mid 3sec. 0-60 times. Corvette ZO6, Viper SRT10, Lambo Gallardo Superleggara, Nissan GT-R,Porsche 911, Shelby GT500. All awd or rwd w/ huge rear tires and weight transferring onto those tires on accel.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*

Viper SRT10 RWD 345/30/19
Corvette ZO6 RWD 325/30/19
Nissan GT-R AWD 255 front, 285 rear
Porsche 911 Turbo AWD 235 Front, 305 rear
Lambo Gallard Super AWD 235 Front, 295 rear
Look at the size of the rubber that OE's put on 400-500*whp* cars. Add to that the superior weight transfer of rwd or awd and you're talking 2-3 times the traction vs. a fwd w/ 205-225's at least.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't build a 400-500whp fwd street car. Just admit that it's ridiculous


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Doesn't mean you shouldn't build a 400-500whp fwd street car. Just admit that it's ridiculous


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## jity86 (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (barrygti)*

Not worth it! that is a whole load of BS! the honda guys are running in the 12's with street cars how in the hell are they doin it, if they can do it so can I, im not givin up on my vr6t mk2, i have managed to get into the mid 13's on 205/40/16's, i just ordered some 205 drag radials hoping to get into the low 13's maybe 12's, and im doing this with a stock bottom end, and stock gear box with no LSD, Dont give up, a vr6t is one of the funnest cars to drive, the power is amazing, or you can give up on it and buy a STI like every ohter H-mo at the drags.


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (jity86)*

How about this with a 500bhp VRT though.....


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: VR6 turbo and Front Wheel Drive...... (jity86)*

this is funny







....I don't see all this people with AWD cars much faster than the vr6 guys with the same power #'s for>>> 9's, 10's, 11's 12's on the 1/4 mile with about the same WHP #'s ..... maybe you guys may know someone that has an AWD pushing a fast 1/4 mile time that has way less power than the fast vr6 turbos out there


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *zwogti* »_ this is funny







....I don't see all this people with AWD cars much faster than the vr6 guys with the same power #'s for>>> 9's, 10's, 11's 12's on the 1/4 mile with about the same WHP #'s ..... maybe you guys may know someone that has an AWD pushing a fast 1/4 mile time that has way less power than the fast vr6 turbos out there










that was a headache to read.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
that was a headache to read.


sorry,^^^^^







it was a little late for me and I was half sleeping, what I'm trying to say is.... if we look around, we will find that both high HP cars (FWD and AWD), with the same hp #'s are running about the same 1/4 mile time.


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Doesn't mean you shouldn't build a 400-500whp fwd street car. Just admit that it's ridiculous









Then why are you building a 400+ fwd street car?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (zwogti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zwogti* »_

sorry,^^^^^







it was a little late for me and I was half sleeping, what I'm trying to say is.... if we look around, we will find that both high HP cars (FWD and AWD), with the same hp #'s are running about the same 1/4 mile time.









If you're going to keep disagreeing w/ me at least read my posts fully and find something that we actually disagree on. You keep talking about 9's, 10's, 11's. Those are 1/4 mile times. I've already said a 400-500whp plus FWD makes perfect sense at the track.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (The Yoda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Yoda* »_
Then why are you building a 400+ fwd street car?

B/c I drag race regularly so I'll be able to use it at the track. Setup will likely be ~10-15psi street and 20psi at the track.
If I didn't drag race I never would have went over ~300whp for the reasons I mentioned. You can't use it in 1st or 2nd and sometimes even third. By the time you can you're speeding and putting people around you in jeopardy= D-bag http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
B/c I drag race regularly so I'll be able to use it at the track. Setup will likely be ~10-15psi street and 20psi at the track.
If I didn't drag race I never would have went over ~300whp for the reasons I mentioned. You can't use it in 1st or 2nd and sometimes even third. By the time you can you're speeding and putting people around you in jeopardy= D-bag http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

You're retarded. Telling people that its stupid to build 400+whp street cars but you're doing the same thing to go to the track 2-3 times a year max. And where are you using 15psi on the street and going the speed limit? Everyone here is guilty of going over the speed limit at some time or another.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Yoda* »_
You're retarded. Telling people that its stupid to build 400+whp street cars but you're doing the same thing to go to the track 2-3 times a year max. And where are you using 15psi on the street and going the speed limit? Everyone here is guilty of going over the speed limit at some time or another.


so telling someone not to do something based on their experiences in the matter is retarded?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (The Yoda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Yoda* »_
You're retarded. Telling people that its stupid to build 400+whp street cars but you're doing the same thing to go to the track 2-3 times a year max. And where are you using 15psi on the street and going the speed limit? Everyone here is guilty of going over the speed limit at some time or another.

Ahh the personal insult. You should learn to disagree w/out being disagreeable. It'll help you in life http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 
I go to the track alot more than 2-3 times a year. The car is also not my daily so street/track is probably 50/50 if you count miles driven to/from the track.
I'll use 15psi when doing 3rd gear pulls in the 3-5k range on the street. 
Do I think it's absolutely ridiculous to build a 500whp FWD car that never sees a racetrack? Absolutely. You obviously disagree since you built one. Enjoy your wheelspin machine. Next topic http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (The Yoda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Yoda* »_
You're retarded.

-No speeding tickets in 20yrs. of driving
-I didn't spend a dime on power I can't use for bragging rights at the risk of shredding gear teeth.
Sounds pretty unretarded to me. Logic. Try it sometime http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: (slc92)*

ok, I guess there is no point for me to stay here on this samething over and over. I hope Mr. barrygti got the idea or he can wait for more help if he still trying to decide on what to do. just don't tell people they can't hookup in 2nd, 3rd or 4th gear with like 350whp and 225 regular tires. because if you are planing to add more power by adding a turbo kit to a vr6 car, I can tell you this..... you can't get traction in 2nd gear on a FWD vr6 turbo car with only 250 WHP and torque, if you don't know how to drive and are going to use some cheap 225 tires you better save your money from the vr6 build up and use for something else


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
-No speeding tickets in 20yrs. of driving
-I didn't spend a dime on power I can't use for bragging rights at the risk of shredding gear teeth.
Sounds pretty unretarded to me. Logic. Try it sometime http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 

ive been reading your posts lately and yes you do know you sh!t, but it just seems like you think your set-up is far superior than anyone elses, just because you havnt spent a lot of $$ and have good 1/4 times.


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## guy022077 (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (mk4vrjtta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk4vrjtta* »_
ive been reading your posts lately and yes you do know you sh!t, but it just seems like you think your set-up is far superior than anyone elses, just because you havnt spent a lot of $$ and have good 1/4 times.









isnt this why he should think his setup is far superior because it costs less and has a good 1/4 mile time?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (mk4vrjtta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk4vrjtta* »_
ive been reading your posts lately and yes you do know you sh!t, but it just seems like you think your set-up is far superior than anyone elses, just because you havnt spent a lot of $$ and have good 1/4 times.









My setup works for me. I couldn't care less of what you or anybody else thinks of it. 
Understand that this site is in large part a bunch of kids looking to outdo one another and you'll see how irrational alot of the builds are. The fact that I give the opposite reaction to what people are looking for is a shame







I'll give my opinion to people that ask just like anybody else. The fact that some dont like it is also too bad.








God forbid you come on a largely fwd high hp forum and state the obvious that fwd and hight hp don't belong in the same sentence. Logic > Bias


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (guy022077)*


_Quote, originally posted by *guy022077* »_
isnt this why he should think his setup is far superior because it costs less and has a good 1/4 mile time?









Makes sense to me


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (zwogti)*

Ok,
I have been thinking this over more and more. The car will be used as a daily to go in to work and back, however I am not reliant on the car, it is a second car for when the wife needs the main car.
My fun is on circuit and sprints etc.
With this in mind I am thinking I want a turbo that is fairly large, with gear based boost I can keep traction in lower gears and lower it on the street. But when on track and up in higher gears I can increase the boost. Still aiming for around 350hp but with room to go to maybe 400hp when on track when in the traction zone.
The VR6 needs revving to get good power anyway, so I am not too bothered about boost at 4000+rpm, plus that will give my gearbox a break(not literally I hope







)
So can you guys recommend some turbo sizing? I like Holset/Borg Warner/Garrett so anything is fine.


_Modified by barrygti at 2:39 PM 4-1-2010_


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (slc92)*

The man ^^^ knows his stuff and you (zwogti) should stop bustin his balls. I have around the same power with a smaller turbine and a lsd also. I could only muster a [email protected], but that's pretty good for my first time out on street tires. 320 whp makes for a fun street car, but any more than that might be a little overkill for daily driving. That is of course you use the power all the time. Drag radials are drive train breakers IMO, all traction and no side wall flex = fail, even at lower power levels. A LSD is a must if you want to keep your trans in one piece + it totally makes a difference in many ways, including handling. People break O2A's and O2J's all the time on stock power levels, ever heard of SMS? Slicks at the track for traction and street tires for daily duty is ideal, but I did ok with street tires on my first outing, it was the clutch that said no.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GinsterMan98)*

OP, Sometimes its best to just read whats out their and decide who knows what they are talking about through there own accomplishments and not just opinions based on ego. Many people on here are very cool and knowledgeable and some are all talk and probably paid someone to build their car for them. Listen to those who have been in the trenches with the wrenches and you will be getting the best advice ever. 
For your power goal I would do this 
LSD(choose your poison, I run a Quaife)
Clutch net 6 puck sprung clutch disk and a medium PP(spec sucks)
Kinetics manifold(Better WG routing vs ATP style) 
Custom inter cooler (Air to Air or Water to Air)
Any T-3 or T-4 with a larger exhaust side (.82) and at least a 60trim compressor wheel.
C2 42# Software and 95mm maf housing
Water Meth inj
BFI stage 1 motor mounts(these are bad arse mounts for the price)
DSR 256 turbo cams (these made a big difference in my car)
Yokohama Prada Spec 2 street tires.
Oh, and don't for get a EGT gage and a Wide band O2 gage as well.




_Modified by GinsterMan98 at 2:40 AM 4-3-2010_


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

Ginster - 
I have been reading and reading and reading to be honest. My trans had a case of SMS last weekend on circuit so I will be ordering an LSD next week, I haven't decided on a clutch yet though as I don't want a terrible clutch on the road.
Everything else you have listed is kinda what I had planned except the Water/Meth kit.


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## 3lfk1ng (Apr 10, 2008)

*Re: (barrygti)*

Wavetrac lsd = sex


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: (barrygti)*

You are on the correct path, Build the car you want and enjoy it. Thats what its about.


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (GinsterMan98)*

When you said about cams..... how do cams work with a turbo. Do cams that would move NA power up the rev range do the same with a turbo?
For instance if I run an HX35 with 266 cams or similar will that be in line with an HX40 spooling with standard cams?
Or do the cams help spool?
I hope that makes sense....


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (barrygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barrygti* »_When you said about cams..... how do cams work with a turbo. Do cams that would move NA power up the rev range do the same with a turbo?


cams work the exact same on a NA motor as a turbo motor. dont forget that a NA motor is actually running 14.7psi of air pressure (atmosphere). So if you were running 10 psi, the pressure in the charge piping would be 24.7psi


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (GinsterMan98)*



GinsterMan98 said:


> The man ^^^ knows his stuff and you (zwogti) should stop bustin his balls. I have around the same power with a smaller turbine and a lsd also. I could only muster a [email protected], but that's pretty good for my first time out on street tires. 320 whp
> Like I had put up ^^^ there, I wasn't coming back here but since you were asking me to stop busting Mr. (SLC92) balls, here I am to let you know that I had no intetion on busting no ones balls and sorry if that is what looks like by my statment..... this site is so we can share info and experience on what work and doesn't work even knowing that somethings may work for some people but doesn't work for others.
> 
> 
> ...


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Ok, I have a smaller exhaust side on my turbo and my cams moved the power band higher in the rpm range. Not only did it do that, it also holds power to red line. Putting a turbo on a car will not change where the engine wants to make power, It will just have more. Its about having more rpm under the power curve, which I accomplished with the cams. Cams also do not cost that much, I got mine use for 180 shipped. It was a cheap way to move the power band and increase the curve. A engine will still respond the same with 10 psi or 30. 
My other comments were not directed at you in anyway and I apologize if you felt that way. It seems as though you were trying to discredit someone on here who does in fact know their stuff. I never said you didn't. I also don't need to get in a pissing match with you either and throw around large numbers of engine I have built, who likes me one here or how many horsepower I have. 
The only downside to W/M is if you tune or use it as your sole means of intercooling than you will be dependent on it. Other than that, the benefits out way the cons. 


_Modified by GinsterMan98 at 3:32 PM 4-4-2010_


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

This post should end the cam argument, I think it sums it up very nicely. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (GinsterMan98)*

Now now children, play nicely!!!
ell I am thinking of changing my gearbox to 02J and much shorter ratios than standard 02A, as most of my fun is on circuit I think it would work out good for me.
With that in mind, cams and a bigger turbo with slightly higher revs is what I will want on track. Moving the power up the band should help traction and gearbox too.
I think stage one will be:
Shorter ratio box with LSD
New Clutch(still not decided)
Cams
Then collect bits to do the turbo over a period of time.
I have to say I prefer proper intercooling to Water/meth injection, so big IC will be my choice, probably means going to Big Bumpers though


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: (barrygti)*

Air to water IC may suite you better than air to air. I know space is a preimum on MK2's.


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## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: (GinsterMan98)*

Run an AWIC and you will never go back! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (GinsterMan98)*

Not a fan of air to water I am afraid. I will fit in an air/air somehow.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

i'm going vrt and let me tell you, vr6 is fast in a mk2, stage one with about 240 HP is fast enough for the streets and with LSD and good tires your going to drop jaws enough said http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

if it's your daily stay with stage 1 and enjoy your car... it's all about being reliable what fun is it when you are taking the car apart every other weekend? it's stupid 


_Modified by dubbinmk2 at 8:41 PM 4-5-2010_


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: (dubbinmk2)*

I will give it to you on that one, I have tossed around the idea of finding a mk2 and not upgrading the power on my setup, just swapping it over. My setup is very reliable after I got all the bugs worked out. With the help of the Vortex of course. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (dubbinmk2)*

Hmm very good point, my ONLY issue with that is that it is almost the same work to go to 42lb stuff anyway and then it is capable of big power.
But you are right, 250bhp with LSD would probably be real fast and pretty reliable....... Hmmmmm


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: (barrygti)*

You really have two options to go fast in a straight line. Be light and have a insane power to weight ratio or be chunky and compensate with added power, granted you can hook up. For a track car (road course) Mk2 with a reliable 250 to 280whp would be ideal. You wouldn't even have to crack the motor open if its in good shape for that amount of power. Decisions decisions....


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## barrygti (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: (GinsterMan98)*

Well I know of a HX35 with 12cm housing going reasonably priced. So if I remained standard compression, put that on and ran maybe 12psi with intercooler it wouldn't be a torque monster so as to destroy gearbox/clutch but should give a nice smooth power band with ability to breath at top end on track too.
And that way if I ever felt the need, drop in a spacer and up the boost......


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