# Pulled out pistons/rods...not very good news...need expert opinion



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Hello guys,

I just got back from the garage after opening up the engine. It seems the cylinders look as new (compression was 14 on all of them ) and the pistons are in perfect condition also (some slight wear on the side skirts coating but the mechanic said those are normal). Rods look very good also but...my surprise was to find a rod bearing almost destroyed and others with minor scratches. Also, there are scratches on the crankshaft bearings. The crankshaft itself is pretty seriously scratched where the damaged rod bearing was. The damaged bearing was not craked but worn out, looking as if there was not enough lubrication there. My mechanic indicated that I might have a problem with the oil pump. He also said we need to measure the crankshaft where it was scratched by the damaged rod bearing. If the crankshaft has a smaller diameter in that place, we either need to order a modified rod bearing ( ETKA program shows this option exists for OEM rod bearings but what about the aftermarket Calico bearings that I will purchase with the IE rods ?), either have to replace the crankshaft. I will post some pics !
PS : I've also attached a print screen from ETKA where, under crankshaft bearing shell you can see blue, red, yellow, white corresponding to different sizes (one of them is probably for new crankshaft and the others for some degree of crankshaft damage/wear)


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

that bearing shattered... it didn't wear due to poor or inadequate lubrication. looks more like manufacturing defect, the outer layer on the bearing shell delaminated and rolled around for awhile. sorry to say this, but that crank is toast... i would start searching for a good used one out of a wrecked motor. 
these were the rod and main bearings out of my M5... this is what a worn bearing looks like:


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_that bearing shattered... it didn't wear due to poor or inadequate lubrication. looks more like manufacturing defect, the outer layer on the bearing shell delaminated and rolled around for awhile. sorry to say this, but that crank is toast... i would start searching for a good used one out of a wrecked motor. 


this.


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, I will buy the IE rods with the upgraded Calico race bearings that are supposed to be much better. I've seen on Integrated engineering's page, they also have these crankshaft made by Calico. Is it worth buying them too ? I was also thinking about a rectification of the crankshaft (on the pictures posted by me above (ETKA), it can be seen that one can purchase OEM bearings with different sizes to use with a recified crankshaft (blue, red, yellow, white). Is there any aftermarket option for a better/lightened crankshaft ? Can those Calico bearings be made thicker to mate with a rectificated crankshaft ?


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Some pics taken during daylight for a better refference




I've measured the crankshaft diameters where they come in contact with the rod bearings and the main bearings :
1) Diameter where the rod stays on the crankshaft (rod bearings) > 47.77mm (it was equal on all 4 of them although the one to the rigt is severily scratched...the scratches cannot be felt at the finger)
2) Diameter where the crankshaft stays on the block (main bearings) > 53.91mm (barely visible scratches)


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

Crankshaft might polish out, otherwise have the crank turned and oversized bearings if available.


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## Hendrik (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: (Uber-A3)*

Arnold from pagparts has oversized ACL bearings... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i feel with you...sorry


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

what happened and you decided to open the engine ?
did you have any symptoms that suggested something was wrong ??


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Pulled out pistons/rods...not very good news...need expert opinion (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_ [/url]
I've measured the crankshaft diameters where they come in contact with the rod bearings and the main bearings :
1) Diameter where the rod stays on the crankshaft (rod bearings) > 47.77mm (it was equal on all 4 of them although the one to the rigt is severily scratched...the scratches cannot be felt at the finger)
2) Diameter where the crankshaft stays on the block (main bearings) > 53.91mm (barely visible scratches)

IMO that bearing failure is from contamination in the oil and im gonna guess its fuel contamination because if you look closely the other bearing and crank journals show early signs , is this the same cylinder the coil pack failed?







Bob.G


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I thought of what you said rracerguy717 but unfortunately I can't remember what coilpack blew since at that time I couldn't imagine what will follow. I decided to open up the engine because that ticking noise wich was probably caused by the rod moving laterally (in the picture can't be seen but there are also some lateral scratches on that journal). Pete said the same thing, that I may want to try polishing out that journal about 0.0001" and get away with the standard Calico coated bearing I've just ordered along with the rods !


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (fuscobal)*

yea, classic rod knock... which is literally the crank beating your connecting rod ends into an egg shape. if you take anything off the crank, its going to need extra thick bearing shells at a minimum. But, i would not run just one cylinder on an oversized bearing shell because of the imbalance it would cause in the most important rotating piece in your motor. whatever it take hone down the crank on the damaged cylinder, you should go down equally on the non damaged cylinders too. that way all cylinders will be running on the same bearing shells...
Personally, id find a clean used crank out of a wrecked car... the rod bearings are the most stressed place in your motor's lubrication system. if you compromise oil pressure at this location through a poorly honed crank, it has a trickle down affect on other places. That's why the other bearings also show signs of wear, because they were not properly lubricated after the defective bearing shell let loose. messing with the most important part of your motor becomes sketchy if you cut corners...
can you take a picture of all the bearing shells lined up instead of the crank itself? that tells you a lot more about the wear on each cylinder because the forces exerted on the bearing shells are higher than on the crank...


_Modified by rhouse181 at 5:13 PM 11-12-2009_


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## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (fuscobal)*

I Noticed that the affected bearing was at one end of the crank. Could this have been caused by oil slosh brought on by aggressive cornering?


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Well, could be. I don't drag but I did a lot of aggresive cornering. I'll try and take out the rod and main bearings and picture them all ! If I'm only taking out 0.001" of each of the 4 journals, [email protected] said it would be ok with the standard bearings. He is also selling bearings with 0.001" extra clearance for extreme applications so from what I understand it's even better to have this extra clearance between the bearings and the crankshaft (probably they can lubricate better) !


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

100% that bearing failure is not due to inadequate lubrication... It shows no signs of wear due to a compromised oil film between two metal surfaces. You would see a smooth, even wear pattern under that circumstance. Look at the jagged edges of the bearing shell in question... The top layer of the shell has literally ripped off, it didn't get worn off.
I can also confidently argue that your motor will not experience oil starvation under heavy cornering loads unless there is a seriously compromised component to the oil system. The rod bearing are lubricated under extreme pressures all fed from a single oil source. If oil starvation was the culprit, it would not manifest itself on only one cylinder... 
Oversized bearing shells do not make the space between the rods and crank larger, they make it smaller.... If you hone down a crank, you make the layer of oil between the two metal surfaces thicker. This thicker layer of oil actually does a worse job of keeping the two metal surfaces from touching each other. If you hone the crank -.0001 then you need to go +.0001 on the bearing shells to maintain the proper film characteristics. 


_Modified by rhouse181 at 7:38 AM 11-13-2009_


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Today I made some new pictures of the bearings. From left to right you have cylinder 1 to 4 for the rod bearings and 1 to 5 for the crankshaft bearing. Seeing there's almost no damage to all the others and this one is completely destroyed, I tend to also believe it wasn't oil starvation but rather a poor quality bearing >


As for the bearings, it seems no one here can shave 0.001" out of the rod jornals (probably has to do with tool precision). Once again..those scratches can't be felt at the finger and that jornal seems to be equal in diameter with the others. Is there any risk to use the crankshaft as it is now with the new coated Calico bearings ?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_
As for the bearings, it seems no one here can shave 0.001" out of the rod jornals (probably has to do with tool precision). Once again..those scratches can't be felt at the finger and that jornal seems to be equal in diameter with the others. Is there any risk to use the crankshaft as it is now with the new coated Calico bearings ?

Man...You've spent so much money on your car, and you are gonna go cheap on a damn crankshaft ??
For the love of God....Just replace it and have your car running again...


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I'm trying to find the best solution. If this one can be reused, why not spending the money on something more useful ? Of course that if I find out that nothing can be done to just polish the journals, I will buy a new one so that I can use the coated bearings wich are supposed to be much stronger !


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Man...You've spent so much money on your car, and you are gonna go cheap on a damn crankshaft ??
For the love of God....Just replace it and have your car running again...

x2... you would be a fool to put that back in your motor without turning all four bearing journals at a minimum. i'd go with a new crank and do a proper repair. unless you get joy from paying for a mechanic to rip apart your motor every 10k or so...


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

yeah, so it once and do it right man.
if i did what you are planning, with every WOT i would be thinking about what condition my crank and bearings are in....EVERY TIME...
Is it really worth it ?


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, here's what I've ordered :
- IE rods
- Calico coated rod bearings in stock size
- OEM tangered 1.8t AWD rod bearings with +0.25mm (this one is a reserve in case I wanted to polish the journals)
- Calico coated crankshaft bearings in stock size
- BSH pendelum mount & torque arm ( nothing to do with my problem but what the hell







)
I will also order a new crankshaft !


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I've pulled out the valves today and...daaam those carbon deposits were choking the valves. I think I pulled out at least 100 grams but the valves are ok !!! Here's some pics :






...and here's after cleaning :






The mechanic showed me the valves from a 10yrs old 1.9TDI engine that were looking as mine after being cleaned !!! I guess that PCV is causing a lot of mess in there !!!


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

lol, this really makes me want some W/M.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Nice clean up! Those were horrible!


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Yes and the car only has 50k miles !


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

dont think w/m will help much.
what crazy stuff did you put on the valves to dissolve that carbon?


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Gasket & carbon stripper made by Kent
http://www.kenteurope.com/photos/84147.jpg


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

im guess thats not a good idea to use it while the valves are still in the head and the head still attached to the block while its still sitting in the car.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

wow makes me want to run out and get a VTA setup just to stop the valve deposits!


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## SuckSquishBangBlow (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (fuscobal)*

What sort of oil consumption have you been seeing?


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (SuckSquishBangBlow)*

We have seen similar levels of carbon build up on engines with much less mileage








Good work cleaning everything up, while you have the head all apart you should bring it to a shop with a Cuda Steam Cleaning System, will make the head look like it is brand new ! 

... oh ya, just replace the crank!


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

New crank is on the way. Oil consumption has been about 500ml each 10k miles !


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_New crank is on the way. Oil consumption has been about 500ml each 10k miles !

I would also try and see if you could port and polish the head while its out man.
Nothing extreme, just a good shine...
Could be worth a couple of horses if done right.


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

I know a guy who can cut .001 off a crank. He builds funny car motors and my machinist has had two cranks done by him and the results were perfection. Thats .0005 off the journal surface. Idk how the dude does it but he nails it.
If you cut the crank further you have to consider that you are cutting heat treated surface. So if you go .01 you might want to get it nitrided to get some depth back on the heat treatment.



_Modified by rissa422 at 3:23 PM 11-21-2009_


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## T62 (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: (rissa422)*

I am SO happy I sold my 2006 6MT Passat 2.0FSI
This motor is a PIECE of ****.


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

IE rods and new crankshaft are here. Wish me luck for tomorrow I will start working on the car. Here are some pics :











Considerations and questions :
1) In the last pics you have the weights of the 4 rods at both ends. As you can see one of them has 2 grams more at one end and 2 grams less at the other. I suppose that's ok as the mechanic said +/- 5grams are allowed
2) Comparing the OEM rod+bearings+bolts to IE we have a difference of 14 grams (581 compared to 567). The IE is heavier than OEM !
3) I see there's quite a difference in design between the 2 setups >
a) Both Calico bearings have those small holes in the middle for lubrication while only one of hte OEM ones has the hole
b) The OEM rod has 2 big holes, one on the upper part and the second on the lower part that communicates through a tunnel /channel with the small end of the rod. IE rod doesn't have neither of these 2 holes so how will it get proper oil lubrication ?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

about the lubrication: id say yes cuz its gonna be swimming in oil and its gonna be coming in from the top of the sides, and not just the bottom so you should be perfect.
btw, im jealous... those look beefy enough to kill a zombie in one whack. makes me wish i wasnt trying to save up for a house...


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## XM_Rocks (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: Pulled out pistons/rods...not very good news...need expert opinion (fuscobal)*

Maybe i missed it... How many miles on the car?


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*FV-QR*

You can always send us the bottom end and the parts and we can lighten and balance the rotating assembly and put it back together as a sealed unit for you. We have some pretty nice low mileage cranks here and we can throw in a balance shaft delete while we are there.


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Too late now as the work started today in the morning







What's to be gained by deleting the balance shaft ?


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_Too late now as the work started today in the morning







What's to be gained by deleting the balance shaft ?

Reliability at high revs and high hp as well as longevity of the engine.


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## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Today I finally finished the car. The engine runs so smooth now and I was so surprised to find that my lost low-end torque is back !!!


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

Glad to hear everything is back together... Enjoy!


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## FuN:TuRBO (Sep 14, 2007)

sorry for your issues.
but this is one of those awesome threads i read and read and read.. love the knowledged filled ones like this.


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