# Self-tune options



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

Sorry if this has been covered before, but a search revealed nothing.

I want to tune my own A3. I don't want an APR/GIAC/REVO/CompanyXYZ cookie cutter flash. Do I have any options?

No offence to the above listed companies, but the best tune for my car will be a custom tune built from dyno pulls and road tuning, not a one-size-fits-all type of tune. I'm not looking specifically for any Open Source or any other free shareware stuff, but just a program (likely like what the above companies use) that I'm willing to pay for, that will allow me to adjust ECU parameters to optimize my car's setup. 

So, is that a pipe dream in the Audi/VW world or is there something available?


----------



## redGTI24 (May 10, 2010)

Pipe dream. Is this your first VW/Audi? Self tuning does not exist for these cars....


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> No offence to the above listed companies, but the best tune for my car will be a custom tune built from dyno pulls and road tuning, not a one-size-fits-all type of tune.


The need for custom tuning with todays modern EFI systems is a myth. You don't make anymore power with a custom tune you just pay more. 

The above companies write their own tools, we find the maps ourselves and spends hundreds of ours doing so before tuning even begins. 

If you want to buy something to do it yourself expect to pay at least 5K+ and then you will still have to spend 100s of hours locating maps before you can start tuning.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

redGTI24 said:


> Pipe dream. Is this your first VW/Audi? Self tuning does not exist for these cars....


Not my first, but I've been out of the VW/Audi world for about 4 years.



[email protected] said:


> The need for custom tuning with todays modern EFI systems is a myth. You don't make anymore power with a custom tune you just pay more.
> 
> The above companies write their own tools, we find the maps ourselves and spends hundreds of ours doing so before tuning even begins.
> 
> If you want to buy something to do it yourself expect to pay at least 5K+ and then you will still have to spend 100s of hours locating maps before you can start tuning.


I don't want to start posting dyno plots from OTS maps versus custom tuned maps from different platforms since I'm sure you'd say they don't apply to VW/Audi's. However, this is the first time I've ever heard that a custom tune is a waste of money. From personal experience and from looking at dyno plots from many different platforms, custom tuning invariably is better than an OTS flash.

Safe AFR's (read richer AFR's), less than optimal timing curves (read safe again), lower boost than necessary... there is no way that a map designed to blanket all similar cars with different mods (different TBE's, different intakes, different ___) is going to be as good as a custom tune. Just look at the different timing, boost, IAT, and fuel curves in that Carbonio vs. Neuspeed intake thread. Same software, different components. Neither optimized.

But, if no option exists in the VAG world, so be it. Running a stand alone really isn't at the top of my priority list on a DD.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> I don't want to start posting dyno plots from OTS maps versus custom tuned maps from different platforms since I'm sure you'd say they don't apply to VW/Audi's. However, this is the first time I've ever heard that a custom tune is a waste of money. From personal experience and from looking at dyno plots from many different platforms, custom tuning invariably is better than an OTS flash.
> 
> Safe AFR's (read richer AFR's), less than optimal timing curves (read safe again), lower boost than necessary... there is no way that a map designed to blanket all similar cars with different mods (different TBE's, different intakes, different ___) is going to be as good as a custom tune. Just look at the different timing, boost, IAT, and fuel curves in that Carbonio vs. Neuspeed intake thread. Same software, different components. Neither optimized.



They don't apply so dont bother, but at the end of the day they don't apply that much in their respective markets either. Everyone gets hung up on custom tuning being the be all end all, sure its great but if you actually did a bit of research on the capabilities and adaptations possible in a modern EFI system you'd see why they are generally a waste of time and money. 

AFR have little to no affect at all on power in these engines. We've run cars from smoke billowing sub 10:1 AF to 13:1 and you'll see a change of less then 1hp across the board.

Less than optimal timing. If its pulling timing its at roughly its max timing, you'll find almost every tune including stock on the market is pulling just a hair of timing across the power band. The only way to get around this is to start disabling things.

Our ecus are more capable of adjusting for things like elevation, ambient and intake temps as well a host of other factors then others on the market. 

Variations seen in the thread you are referring to could be found on the same car with the same parts, it doesn't mean the software isn't optimized it means it is showing you the car is adapting to the changes it is seeing even from a simple intake. 

More often then not you'll find one off highly customized tunes to work great the day they were done and possibly show some slight increases, but chances are the next day it's slower and making less power then the off the shelf tune because in order to get the most out of it thigns had to be pushed so the car over compensates the next day or things had to be disabled making it not safe the next day. 

There are actually markets where custom tuning is common for VW/Audis, UK which is where our headquarters is located is one of those markets where it is very popular. Still even with the market flooded with a custom tuner literally in every town we sell more software then all of them combined. We claim less but generally make more because our software is reliable and consistent. Hell we even charge more but we still sell more because the results are there, our off the shelf tuning performs better then what the custom guys offer. 

There is a damn good reason between 5+ companies in this market all selling off the shelf tunes make within 1-2hp and 1-2 ft/lbs of torque of each other on average.


----------



## A3Performance (Jul 22, 2006)

WhyteA3 said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before, but a search revealed nothing.
> 
> I want to tune my own A3. I don't want an APR/GIAC/REVO/CompanyXYZ cookie cutter flash. Do I have any options?
> 
> ...


So you've been in Audi/VW scene for 4 years and you want a custom tune for the stock turbo and injectors? Come on man be more realistic, I can understand if your going BT with RS4 injectors. :screwy:


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> They don't apply so dont bother, but at the end of the day they don't apply that much in their respective markets either. Everyone gets hung up on custom tuning being the be all end all, sure its great but if you actually did a bit of research on the capabilities and adaptations possible in a modern EFI system you'd see why they are generally a waste of time and money.
> 
> AFR have little to no affect at all on power in these engines. We've run cars from smoke billowing sub 10:1 AF to 13:1 and you'll see a change of less then 1hp across the board.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Learned a couple things.


----------



## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> They don't apply so dont bother, but at the end of the day they don't apply that much in their respective markets either. Everyone gets hung up on custom tuning being the be all end all, sure its great but if you actually did a bit of research on the capabilities and adaptations possible in a modern EFI system you'd see why they are generally a waste of time and money.


If this was true then why does revo have the sps. Your arguing that the ecu will adapt to the variations between mods and that a one size fits all tune is best but then your company offers adjust ability. They wouldnt offer it if it wasnt needed.



[email protected] said:


> AFR have little to no affect at all on power in these engines. We've run cars from smoke billowing sub 10:1 AF to 13:1 and you'll see a change of less then 1hp across the board.


I have a very hard time believing that. If your running rich or lean you hp will most definitely be more then one hp difference. Your cumbustion isnt optimized and thus power will be effected.



[email protected] said:


> Less than optimal timing. If its pulling timing its at roughly its max timing, you'll find almost every tune including stock on the market is pulling just a hair of timing across the power band. The only way to get around this is to start disabling things....in order to get the most out of it thigns had to be pushed so the car over compensates the next day or things had to be disabled making it not safe the next day.


I dont understand the need to have everything so complicated. I know the fsi is high tech but the ecu is too needy. Look at hondas or even the 12v vr, those motors are stupid easy and they run great without all the "safety" nets our ecu has. Most tuners say that running a mbc is the worst thing in the world and disabling the n75 will cause a nuclear reaction and your penis will fall off but hey mine still works.



[email protected] said:


> There are actually markets where custom tuning is common for VW/Audis, UK which is where our headquarters is located is one of those markets where it is very popular. Still even with the market flooded with a custom tuner literally in every town we sell more software then all of them combined. We claim less but generally make more because our software is reliable and consistent. Hell we even charge more but we still sell more because the results are there, our off the shelf tuning performs better then what the custom guys offer.


Did you ever think that most people dont want to spend a whole day doing logs on the street and going on the dyno to make thing perfect for their intake and ehxaust? Granted MOST vag enthusiasts do not make their own custom parts and deviate from the mainstream mods that are offered but that doesnt mean there is not a need or a market for people to have the ability to write their own custom tunes. Its disgusting the lack of tuning in the community and that we actually let these "tuners" make soo much money for doing some r&d once that then continues to bring oin money for the life of the platform.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

08 passat turbo said:


> This might be the first time i read something posted from chris and actually learned something other than....naw forget it....4 days till waterfest!!!! Woooooo!!!!!!


really? your parents never taught you to not be a douch did they? shame.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

IMAN973 said:


> vag enthusiasts.


:laugh:


----------



## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

IMAN973 said:


> I know the fsi is high tech but the ecu is too needy. Look at hondas or even the 12v vr, those motors are stupid easy and they run great without all the "safety" nets our ecu has. Most tuners say that running a mbc is the worst thing in the world and disabling the n75 will cause a nuclear reaction and your penis will fall off but hey mine still works.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think that most people dont want to spend a whole day doing logs on the street and going on the dyno to make thing perfect for their intake and ehxaust? Granted MOST vag enthusiasts do not make their own custom parts and deviate from the mainstream mods that are offered but that doesnt mean there is not a need or a market for people to have the ability to write their own custom tunes. Its disgusting the lack of tuning in the community and that we actually let these "tuners" make soo much money for doing some r&d once that then continues to bring oin money for the life of the platform.


I really don't understand that.. People charging anywhere from 500-950 for tunes from stock to big turbo and then not offering customer support once you dish out the money for the OTS tune. Alot of people don't want to go further and are happy with their OTS tune, but these people who pay big bucks for an OTS big turbo file should at least be hooked up with some kind of tune more applicable for their vehicle. Say for instance I end up building the head with some valvetrain and cams. Then i will be flowing more and revving higher. The products are on the market and being sold to a good number of people. Will I get a tune to utilize these products if I choose to put them on my car? who knows.


----------



## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

LEWXCORE said:


> I really don't understand that.. People charging anywhere from 500-950 for tunes from stock to big turbo and then not offering customer support once you dish out the money for the OTS tune. Alot of people don't want to go further and are happy with their OTS tune, but these people who pay big bucks for an OTS big turbo file should at least be hooked up with some kind of tune more applicable for their vehicle. Say for instance I end up building the head with some valvetrain and cams. Then i will be flowing more and revving higher. The products are on the market and being sold to a good number of people. Will I get a tune to utilize these products if I choose to put them on my car? who knows.


Exactly my point


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> They don't apply so dont bother, but at the end of the day they don't apply that much in their respective markets either. Everyone gets hung up on custom tuning being the be all end all, sure its great but if you actually did a bit of research on the capabilities and adaptations possible in a modern EFI system you'd see why they are generally a waste of time and money.
> 
> AFR have little to no affect at all on power in these engines. We've run cars from smoke billowing sub 10:1 AF to 13:1 and you'll see a change of less then 1hp across the board.
> 
> ...


An AFR variation as you described showing a 1HP delta? With nothing else changing? That makes no sense. 

I have done research and I have directly experienced the difference between OTS and a custom map. Whether the ECU is good at compensation, there is still no doubt in my mind, the minds of many tuners, and the minds of many customers in those "inapplicable" other markets that a customized map designed specifically for the modifications to the car, the elevation the car will be at, the fuel, the normal operating temperature (hot climate, cold climate, both?), and the style of map (enduro, TA, drag, daily...) will always be superior to a one-size-fits-all map. 

I do agree with you that OTS is a safe bet. Not all tuners are created equal. And if the maps aren't holding or are making less power or running poorly a day or two after the tune, then something is wrong. A solid, custom tune will make more power, more consistently, and more reliably. 

I'm not suggesting you or any of the other companies give consumers the keys to the kingdom. Charge your price, provide a basemap, and then let the end user have full control over the calibration so that they can either tune it themselves to be perfect (if they have the capability) or take it to a tuner who can. Like you said, the cattle will still come and buy the basic software and go on their merry way. But there is still a large market of people who would rather go the extra mile and make the most of their tune and their car.



A3Performance said:


> So you've been in Audi/VW scene for 4 years and you want a custom tune for the stock turbo and injectors? Come on man be more realistic, I can understand if your going BT with RS4 injectors. :screwy:


Try to think outside the box... I know it's hard in the 5-tuning-company dominated US Audi/VW world.

You would rather run a generic map instead of a map designed specifically for your modifications? Or, if you didn't have any mods, for your specific vehicle, elevation, fuel, and location? Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage Unicorn, it doesn't matter. Custom will be better. 

What happens if you're into drag racing and want to run higher boost for your passes? Or what happens if you're doing a lot of HPDE's or Time Attack or Solo Sprint and need a lower boost map to compensate for the crazy IAT's over a long session? Or, in the previous examples, if you wanted to run VP109, or C16 or Q16 or E85? Or what if you just have a grocery getter lifestyle and want a map that will give you just a bit more power than stock, but don't want to push the envelope? All those situations cannot be encompassed by one OTS map. Again, custom gives you options.

Don't get me wrong, an OTS map is more than okay for the majority. But, you won't tap the full potential, or have as potentially safe a map as you could. A lower stage vehicle not pushing the envelope isn't a huge concern, but it will definitely be better than OTS. For a lot of people, the 5-10% improvement won't be worth it, but for many people in many different circumstances, it will. All that's needed is for end users to be given the option. 

As LEWXCORE posted, it becomes even more dramatic as turbo size goes up and modifications get more extreme.



LEWXCORE said:


> I really don't understand that.. People charging anywhere from 500-950 for tunes from stock to big turbo and then not offering customer support once you dish out the money for the OTS tune. Alot of people don't want to go further and are happy with their OTS tune, but these people who pay big bucks for an OTS big turbo file should at least be hooked up with some kind of tune more applicable for their vehicle. Say for instance I end up building the head with some valvetrain and cams. Then i will be flowing more and revving higher. The products are on the market and being sold to a good number of people. Will I get a tune to utilize these products if I choose to put them on my car? who knows.


Exactly. Putting a 30R or a 35R on a car and getting some generic map is laughable. At the very least, custom maps tailored by logs emailed back and forth with a tuning company would be better.

I guess I'm just so surprised by the complacency in this tuner's market. All the major tuning companies stand to benefit - they could charge high prices for access to their calibration software, and charge more for custom tunes and dyno time. No one likes money around here? Sounds like I should get to work .


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

Then why dont u make ur own tune? Cant u get the blueprint of a basemap and expound upon it? Im actually interested in a fully customizable tune for specific location, temp, desired style. If there was a multifunction tune where u could switch the ECU from a drag tune to an auto-x tune, back to a DD tune. I would run my car like that if it was available. But i think the reason this hasnt been created is because everyone is fine with the basemap tunes provided. The well out perform than expected, and most apply to different driving styles and coordinates. If there was something out there that could "prove them wrong" so to speak i think there would be more acceptance of this theory. Also if the tuners opened up for a fully customizable tune, i think the issue of liabilty comes into play. Idt any tuner would jeopardize their reptuation for a little slack in timing, boost, and fueling, etc etc etc. Not bashin the idea i think its a great one. I think you SHOULD get to work


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

IMAN973 said:


> If this was true then why does revo have the sps. Your arguing that the ecu will adapt to the variations between mods and that a one size fits all tune is best but then your company offers adjust ability. They wouldnt offer it if it wasnt needed.


Our adjustable software is nothing like a custom tune and shouldn't even be brought up in the same sentence. There are still some variances that are big jumps like 91 to 93 or 30 degrees outside to 90 degrees. This is no different then 




> I have a very hard time believing that. If your running rich or lean you hp will most definitely be more then one hp difference. Your cumbustion isnt optimized and thus power will be effected.


Unfortunately you need to believe it, and not again just reinforces all the misinformation regarding the need for custom tunes. 




> I dont understand the need to have everything so complicated. I know the fsi is high tech but the ecu is too needy. Look at hondas or even the 12v vr, those motors are stupid easy and they run great without all the "safety" nets our ecu has. Most tuners say that running a mbc is the worst thing in the world and disabling the n75 will cause a nuclear reaction and your penis will fall off but hey mine still works.


How Many FSIs have blown up and how many hondas and 12vs have blown up? See what those safeties are there for now? You don't have to worry about spiking your stock 2.0t to 20+ psi because it has all the safety features, yet you'll see people with turbo hondas very concerned about a spike to 9psi when they are tuned for 8psi because that 8psi is already the bleeding edge. Their custom tunes have no control over knock or AF and can't adapt for changes as easily, again making it so their custom tune is actually hurting them more often then being an advantage. 




> Did you ever think that most people dont want to spend a whole day doing logs on the street and going on the dyno to make thing perfect for their intake and ehxaust? Granted MOST vag enthusiasts do not make their own custom parts and deviate from the mainstream mods that are offered but that doesnt mean there is not a need or a market for people to have the ability to write their own custom tunes. Its disgusting the lack of tuning in the community and that we actually let these "tuners" make soo much money for doing some r&d once that then continues to bring oin money for the life of the platform.


Ok you just contradicted yourself there, First you say people don't want to have to spend so much time doing a custom tune.. then you say that there are no options here for people to do that. Which is it? is it a waste of time or is it something people want and need?

Bottom line if its so horrible the amount of money you think we make then figure out how to offer people a means to tune it themselves. There are tools you can acquire you can find the maps and just let everyone here know where they are and they can then tune and flash their own car. Shall we set a date? this day 2015 you'll post up your progress so far?

The only thing worse then someone who bitches and moans about a problem is the one who does it and demands someone else fix it for them.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> I'm not suggesting you or any of the other companies give consumers the keys to the kingdom. Charge your price, provide a basemap, and then let the end user have full control over the calibration so that they can either tune it themselves to be perfect (if they have the capability) or take it to a tuner who can. Like you said, the cattle will still come and buy the basic software and go on their merry way. But there is still a large market of people who would rather go the extra mile and make the most of their tune and their car.


This exists, if you want it stop crying go buy it and do it. Seriously this comes up every few months.. people demand that this be brought to market, it's here, it's been here for years you can buy it today..not ONE person who brings this up as ever put up and just done it.. they demand it and then the go away. This only further proves that even the people who demand we build it wouldn't buy it themselves.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

dubman6 said:


> Then why dont u make ur own tune? Cant u get the blueprint of a basemap and expound upon it? Im actually interested in a fully customizable tune for specific location, temp, desired style. If there was a multifunction tune where u could switch the ECU from a drag tune to an auto-x tune, back to a DD tune. I would run my car like that if it was available. But i think the reason this hasnt been created is because everyone is fine with the basemap tunes provided. The well out perform than expected, and most apply to different driving styles and coordinates. If there was something out there that could "prove them wrong" so to speak i think there would be more acceptance of this theory. Also if the tuners opened up for a fully customizable tune, i think the issue of liabilty comes into play. Idt any tuner would jeopardize their reptuation for a little slack in timing, boost, and fueling, etc etc etc. Not bashin the idea i think its a great one. I think you SHOULD get to work


I *WANT* to. That's the whole point of this thread. I wanted to know if there were self-tuning options out there instead of only OTS maps from a select few companies. I think most people have grown so accustomed to the way things are.

Before posting this thread, I searched on here and the web for self-tuning options for this platform. Unless you go standalone, there are no apparent options. 



[email protected] said:


> This exists, if you want it stop crying go buy it and do it. Seriously this comes up every few months.. people demand that this be brought to market, it's here, it's been here for years you can buy it today..not ONE person who brings this up as ever put up and just done it.. they demand it and then the go away. This only further proves that even the people who demand we build it wouldn't buy it themselves.


Could you please post what "exists"? Could you also post some threads where this has come up? I searched on here and on the web and couldn't find anything... hence this thread. I'm genuinely curious in what was said in those threads. 

I'd be happy to explore what exists and see if it's a viable option to develop. Maybe I'm the retard and self-tuning on this platform is a waste of time and money. Somehow I doubt it, but I'll definitely explore it and post back here with my findings. I promise .


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> Could you please post what "exists"? Could you also post some threads where this has come up? I searched on here and on the web and couldn't find anything... hence this thread. I'm genuinely curious in what was said in those threads.



You attack the products that mine and other companies make and you want me to hand you the information to buy something else? If you can't do the research to even find the tools I have a hard time believing you would successfully even be able to use them.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The only thing worse then someone who bitches and moans about a problem is the one who does it and demands someone else fix it for them.


HAHA...I like that Chris. :beer:

To the OP, while I appreciate the willingness to aspire for bigger and better things in this market, this just isn't going to happen. The first situation that comes to mind is the gentleman with the MKV Rabbit C2 Motorsports turbo project. The initial quote for custom tuning was $5k and additional $5k in parts/labor.  Six months and $3k later (IIRC), C2 contacted the owner and said it just wan't going to happen (software related).

Granted, this situation is slightly different; however, this community just isn't going to spend an extra couple grand or more for a slight increase in power. The $$$/hp gained just isn't worth it from the end user perspective and if the demand (at that price) isn't there, supply (from the tuners) will not exist either. Now, there are a couple of Vag tuners that can offer their services for a price (Eurodyne/Tapp and possibly Unitronics); however, what they value their time is something I care not to think about.

I wish you the best in your search for these aspirations and hope that you come back with your goals met and for a reasonable price. I just can't say that if I were a betting man, I would wager with you. :thumbup:


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> You attack the products that mine and other companies make and you want me to hand you the information to buy something else? If you can't do the research to even find the tools I have a hard time believing you would successfully even be able to use them.


Are you for real? Nice attitude :thumbup:. 

Please show me where I "attacked" any person, product, or company? That statement is laughable. Oh well. 

If I called you with a custom setup (odd ball turbo, big lift cams, ported heads, different CR, etc etc) would you be able to help me with a tune? That's all I'm asking. If no, why not? If the option exists and you or any of the other companies that I'm viciously attacking already offer the service, then I need look no further.



rbradleymedmd said:


> HAHA...I like that Chris. :beer:
> 
> To the OP, while I appreciate the willingness to aspire for bigger and better things in this market, this just isn't going to happen. The first situation that comes to mind is the gentleman with the MKV Rabbit C2 Motorsports turbo project. The initial quote for custom tuning was $5k and additional $5k in parts/labor.  Six months and $3k later (IIRC), C2 contacted the owner and said it just wan't going to happen (software related).
> 
> ...


Yeah, based on Chris' warm responses, I'm not sure I'd wager with myself either. It just seems like there is such a huge market gap here. It seems illogical that the big companies that already offer OTS tuning solutions wouldn't give people more options to customize their own builds and not force them to run a pre-determined hardware package. Am I missing something?

What if you had to buy the base map software for whatever it costs, then spend another $200 on a more customized tune (email tuned using logs, or a road tune)? Or what if you had a custom map built for $1500-2000 including dyno time for your pieced together big turbo build... would that be worth it?


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> The need for custom tuning with todays modern EFI systems is a myth. You don't make anymore power with a custom tune you just pay more.
> 
> The above companies write their own tools, we find the maps ourselves and spends hundreds of ours doing so before tuning even begins.
> 
> If you want to buy something to do it yourself expect to pay at least 5K+ and then you will still have to spend 100s of hours locating maps before you can start tuning.


as much as i dont like doing this....HERE IS YOUR ANSWER OP....and the fact that the ECU can compensate for anything ie: atmospheric pressure etc etc...ur gonna pay a boatload of money for basically nothing....

CHRIS THIS IS NOT A BASH!! (for once lol) APR might be comming out with a stage 4 kit which has upgraded cams etc etc and might be what your looking for


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

WhyteA3 said:


> I'm not suggesting you or any of the other companies give consumers the keys to the kingdom. Charge your price, provide a base map, and then let the end user have full control over the calibration so that they can either tune it themselves to be perfect (if they have the capability) or take it to a tuner who can. Like you said, the cattle will still come and buy the basic software and go on their merry way. But there is still a large market of people who would rather go the extra mile and make the most of their tune and their car.


Eurodyne does this with their Maestro 7 Tuning Suite which the currently have out for the 1.8t. A friend of mine is running it on his BT 337 along with a number of other 1.8t guys. If that ever hits the 2.0T fsi market a number of people will make the leap to BT setups or leave their current Tuner fold.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

If you want a hard core race calibration specifically created for your vehicle and your exact needs we can do it in house. 


If you want to do it on your own, you'll run into serious limitations. 

APR builds their own logging tools, editing tools, read/write tools and reverse engineers the ECU. If you decide to jump into the game you'll have to do it like many other companies. 

First, you'll need to purchase some sort of read/write tools. 
You can find them here:
http://www.evc.de/en/default.asp
http://www.cmdtec.it/
http://www.optican.net/
http://www.byteshooter.at/

Editing tools:
winols: http://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/software/default.asp

You'll need a logging suite. You can try to do it with vag-com but you will not have access to all the variables you need to tune the vehicle properly and you will not have enough resolution to make a good tune.

http://www.ross-tech.com/

Or you can contact another guy out there who sold his suite to a few other other tuners floating around here. ;-) ;-) ;-)


You'll also want to find some documentation... Good luck. Hope you know technical german well!

You'll want file that actually decrypt the ECU files.... again, good luck. German doesn't translate easily.

Other than that, you'll want to troll around some chip tuning message boards, make friends, and start paying lots of money to get what you need. 

http://www.checksumm.com/

All in all expect to be in several thousands of dollars. $15,000+ is not a bad estimation. 


If that's too much, like I said, bring it here. $200 an hour for 40-60 hours and you'll be golden!


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

$15000 gtfo! 

Why can't one of the OTS files just be modified to suite needs of end user?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

sabba said:


> $15000 gtfo!
> 
> Why can't one of the OTS files just be modified to suite needs of end user?


That is what it costs to buy/develop the tools to do just one ecu, which since you brought it up wouldn't even be enough to modify an existing OTS tune since you wouldn't have the tools/ skillset to crack the encryptions to even read it in most cases to even begin to look at it to modify it. 

Arin gave you a quote of 200 an hour for 40-60 hours for them to modify an existing OTS tune custom for you.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Min of 8 grand to get a tune. I think your both smoking crack (nothing personal) and I am pretty sure there are other options out there if you want it bad enough.

But hey I'm just an outsider looking in...


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> If you want a hard core race calibration specifically created for your vehicle and your exact needs we can do it in house.
> 
> 
> If you want to do it on your own, you'll run into serious limitations.
> ...


Thanks Arin. I appreciate the time to post all of that. 

One question - that 40-60 hours includes a complete build (labor time), start to finish, including tuning but not parts, correct?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> If you want a hard core race calibration specifically created for your vehicle and your exact needs we can do it in house.
> 
> 
> If you want to do it on your own, you'll run into serious limitations.
> ...





WhyteA3 said:


> Thanks Arin. I appreciate the time to post all of that.
> 
> One question - that 40-60 hours includes a complete build (labor time), start to finish, including tuning but not parts, correct?


Correct. The 40-60 is also an estimate. If it turns out you only want to maximize something like the k03 we may factor in less time. Typically the customers coming to us with real needs are those racing in professional, semi-pro amateur racing leagues. Some have specific hardware limitations and required fuel for the stock turbocharger. Others are lucky and can run the k04 or stage 3/4 turbo setup.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

Okay, that makes sense. I knew you didn't mean 40-60 hours to revise a basemap, but I wanted to be sure. 

Is there any reason why APR wouldn't release a tuning software suite that could be purchased by tuners around the country? Or, you could also sell an end-user geared tuning software for guys that like to do their own tuning. If customers had to purchase the regular $550-600 OTS flash, then had the option of being dyno tuned or road tuned to custom calibrate their tune, it would seem to me that many, MANY more customers would flock to APR. Why would anyone go anywhere else? Custom is custom, regardless of who the initial software vendor was. Just saying .


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

WhyteA3 said:


> Is there any reason why APR wouldn't release a tuning software suite that could be purchased by tuners around the country?


One simple reason. It would be like handing over the keys to the castle. The APR tuning software is pretty coveted. Even the Ex-Bosch calibrators we have working for us said it's better than some of the stuff they were using when calibrating from the OEM!




> Or, you could also sell an end-user geared tuning software for guys that like to do their own tuning.


To do it right, this really is not possible. The reason being is the engine management found in these vehicles is much more complex than anything you've probably seen or used in the past. Many japanese vehicles only have a handful of maps to edit. Any Joe off the street can edit and tune with just a few hours of reading. Bosch motronic on the other hand is simply not that way. You change one variable and it impacts hundreds of others. One map change may require routing through the code and tracing backwards to maps that seem completely unrelated. It's not as simple as turning a knob, it's very complex. Say there was a manual that covered the entire ECU... it would be around 5000 pages long. 




> If customers had to purchase the regular $550-600 OTS flash, then had the option of being dyno tuned or road tuned to custom calibrate their tune, it would seem to me that many, MANY more customers would flock to APR. Why would anyone go anywhere else? Custom is custom, regardless of who the initial software vendor was. Just saying .


You are totally right. If this was possible there would be tons of people who flock to the ECU suite but as I mentioned above, it's just not that simple. Some have tried to force it to be simple and have tried to make 'suites' in the past but those suites only have access to a handful of maps and variables. Much of the ECU must be dumbed down in order to get anywhere. 


All in all, if you do want a dumbed down ECU, you may have some success using the Bosch Motorsport ECU's. Those are pretty dumb and have very limited maps and very in terms of emissions control or safety features. They cost over 5k Euros though. You'll need one that can do 4 cyl's, gasoline direct injection, forced induction, variable valve timing, ESP (if you want it) and a whole bunch of other things if I recall correctly. BTW that MS ECU info is just off the top of my head so don't hold me to it... I'm probably a bit mistaken on that one but essentially what I'm trying to convey is that it's not cheap at all.


----------



## sirsycott (May 16, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> But, if no option exists in the VAG world, so be it. Running a stand alone really isn't at the top of my priority list on a DD.
> 
> Yeah, based on Chris' warm responses, I'm not sure I'd wager with myself either. It just seems like there is such a huge market gap here. It seems illogical that the big companies that already offer OTS tuning solutions wouldn't give people more options to customize their own builds and not force them to run a pre-determined hardware package. Am I missing something?


don't forget he's trying to custom tune his DD

side note, wasn't *evoms *or some random company post in here before the whole forum changed design that they were trying to push out custom or variable tuning set by the purchasee?

i can't remember the details some one help this poor kid out before chris gets a chance to eat him for dinner

btw chris does make valid points

i dont' really think there's a HUGE market gap as you say , since 70ish percent of the people who tune their cars are happy with an OTS flash

the only people who truly want/need custom tunes are usually in the 10% of the "i've got money to waste" GT30-35R demographic, 


which is usually a post on golfmkv or vwvortex with moderate ammount of posts about how cool it is, no one can truly account for the ammount of people who've actually acheived that other than counting threads of guys who post their build-up/setup

, compared to the 10k threads about stage 1-2+ which is a majority of the people on tunes

you have to understand that tuners also have to pay for R&D for a specific software for a specific hardware, ATP has gt30kits but provide no tuning, they leave it up to software flashers to make them, 
apr is still "thinking about a tsi k04" and revo doesn't bother why? because to some people it's "Not worth it" or layman's terms "not cost effective" 

this explains why there's not much support (if any at all ) for anything past a stage 3 or gt28 build


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> One simple reason. It would be like handing over the keys to the castle. The APR tuning software is pretty coveted. Even the Ex-Bosch calibrators we have working for us said it's better than some of the stuff they were using when calibrating from the OEM!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, thanks for explaining that. Interesting info. I have zero desire to go standalone on this car. The Autronic on my track car and the compromising that go along with that are definitely not on the list of 'wants' for the A3. That was never the plan with this car, and definitely not the platform I'd spend that kind of cash on anyway. I was envisioning a much simpler tuning solution using the OEM ECU than what you described. 



sirsycott said:


> don't forget he's trying to custom tune his DD
> 
> side note, wasn't *evoms *or some random company post in here before the whole forum changed design that they were trying to push out custom or variable tuning set by the purchasee?
> 
> ...


I'll try and make sense of what you just wrote. 

1 - Yes, I'm trying to custom tune my DD. The DD part is irrelevant aside from the fact that I do not want a standalone. I already have an Autronic SM4 in my track car... one standalone is enough. Having different maps for different fuels and also having the ability to optimize my tune for the exhaust and intake I'm running would also be quite nice.

2 - Not sure. If it's going to happen, I'm sure everyone will hear about it here.

3 - Kid? Wut. There is some good information in this thread. Arin provided some very useful info

4 - I said that.

5 - Does anyone with an Audi/VW FSI have a custom Stage 1 or 2 tune? How would people know if they were happier with an OTS or custom tune if a custom tune doesn't even exist? 

6 - In different tuning markets, the cost of a custom tune is $150-200 more than OTS software. A large amount of people go that route for the extra couple hundred dollars. It is so inexpensive that it makes it easy for guys to switch a lot of things around and not worry about having to get retuned - a larger hotside on their turbo, larger injectors, a big MAF intake... all the little modifications that require a retune is inexpensively had. There are also open source options (free) but then you get no company support and are pretty much left to your own fate if you mess up your ECU or tune.

7 - Again, no. 

8 - I'll agree with you there. Most people are not interested in monster BT setups. But the amount of potential in a Stage 2 and 3 setup left on the table (not necessarily in tuning, but the restriction it places on what components and fuel you can run) is a market gap left by custom tuning not being available. But, based on what Arin said and the high complexity of the ECU, it sounds like a moot point. 
-----
Cool. Thanks all who contributed for humoring me, and thanks Arin for the more detailed info. Maybe one day we'll see something, but until then, OTS good times or big bucks spent it is .


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

All this bickering... man, I miss this isht... lol


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

IMAN973 said:


> Chris im not even gonna take the time to respond to your bs. If you honestly think that an OTS tune is better then a custom one then i see why your company went out of business. Stay down in Georgia and please dont come back and try to work for Mike again. Your career is an epic fail.


he will be in NJ in a few days if not already here.....2 days till WF16 BABY!!!


----------



## Serrari (Jun 29, 2008)

IMAN973 said:


> Chris im not even gonna take the time to respond to your bs. If you honestly think that an OTS tune is better then a custom one then i see why your company went out of business. Stay down in Georgia and please dont come back and try to work for Mike again. Your career is an epic fail.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

LOL another epic thread... In his defense, I don't think chris was really trying to say an OTS map is "better" than a custom tune in the sense that you can't beat on OTS map with a custom tune, but in the sense that a more conservative OTS map is more practical because although power is left on the table, you can pretty much run it year round without changing it constantly depending on outside factors and have a somewhat reliable setup that you don't have to be constantly on top of. Makes sense to me. But on the other hand, it would be nice to have available adjustablity for guys like us that are trying to push it and make numbers.


----------



## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

LEWXCORE said:


> LOL another epic thread... In his defense, I don't think chris was really trying to say an OTS map is "better" than a custom tune in the sense that you can't beat on OTS map with a custom tune, but in the sense that a more conservative OTS map is more practical because although power is left on the table, you can pretty much run it year round without changing it constantly depending on outside factors and have a somewhat reliable setup that you don't have to be constantly on top of. Makes sense to me. But on the other hand, it would be nice to have available adjustablity for guys like us that are trying to push it and make numbers.


This is why REVO came out with the SPS+. 

I use it when the seasons change, cooler weather I add timing, boost, fuel. When its cold out (60-50-40-30* etc) on pump gas (93) I bump the timing up to 6 & the boost up to 8. The car HAULS ASS for having a K03. It's most definately faster & I can adjust settings whenever I want inside of 5 minutes. Throw some race gas in & you can set Timing & Boost to 9 (with 0 timing pull). I love it.


----------



## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

rippie74 said:


> This is why REVO came out with the SPS+.
> 
> I use it when the seasons change, cooler weather I add timing, boost, fuel. When its cold out (60-50-40-30* etc) on pump gas (93) I bump the timing up to 6 & the boost up to 8. The car HAULS ASS for having a K03. It's most definately faster & I can adjust settings whenever I want inside of 5 minutes. Throw some race gas in & you can set Timing & Boost to 9 (with 0 timing pull). I love it.


Yeah i had revo with the SPS on my k03 and I loved it too.. I had my wastegate cranked and ran alot of timing too which was fun with the revo settings but I had to ditch revo when I went bt... i was going to try to get their 3071 file and see what happened with the sps but decided to bite bullet and get unitronics since I saw more people had success with uni big turbo cars.


----------



## 07wolfsburg (Mar 7, 2008)

rippie74 said:


> This is why REVO came out with the SPS+.
> 
> I use it when the seasons change, cooler weather I add timing, boost, fuel. When its cold out (60-50-40-30* etc) on pump gas (93) I bump the timing up to 6 & the boost up to 8. The car HAULS ASS for having a K03. It's most definately faster & I can adjust settings whenever I want inside of 5 minutes. Throw some race gas in & you can set Timing & Boost to 9 (with 0 timing pull). I love it.



x2 on the sps. Im completely satisfied with Revo and the sps with my Ko3. I've put down many 13.3's in my GLI w/o w/m or any weight reduction so I feel its doing its job. 

Unfortunately in the near future when its BT time its also gonna be new software time.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

IMAN973 said:


> Chris im not even gonna take the time to respond to your bs. If you honestly think that an OTS tune is better then a custom one then i see why your company went out of business. Stay down in Georgia and please dont come back and try to work for Mike again. Your career is an epic fail.



What the F are you even talking about?

My company didn't go out of business, I Was offered a job and I took it so I shut my shop down, HUGE difference. Hell part of the reason I had my shop and was a REvo dealer was to eventually get a job with them and it was the second time they offered me a job. Clearly fail..

work for mike again? as in Tyrolsport? You do know I walked the hell out of there because the stuff going on was down right scary and even associating myself with the place would have been beyond epic fail. In one morning I was told to pull a car into the shop and dust it off to make it look like it was being worked on, sand down rotors on a car since he told the customer they were replaced, and when I asked where the cam caps were for a head I was told just go to this box its full of cam caps and use any that I find.

What exactly has been your wonderful career path other then following issam around?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> Thanks Arin. I appreciate the time to post all of that.
> 
> One question - that 40-60 hours includes a complete build (labor time), start to finish, including tuning but not parts, correct?



Arin would have to clarify again but yes I believe he means just tuning not building the car if it is a truely custom tune. They don't charge 200 bucks for mechanical labor as far as I know but that price is not out of line for custom tuning of that level including the dyno. Dialing in a even with a Ko3 could easily take 20 hours. Doing something more involved with bigger injectors, different MAF size, larger turbo at different boost levels could easily exceed 40 hours. 

Again ARin would have to clarify but you are talking about mechanical labor being included and I'm 99% sure Arin didn't mean that in his first post.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

LEWXCORE said:


> LOL another epic thread... In his defense, I don't think chris was really trying to say an OTS map is "better" than a custom tune in the sense that you can't beat on OTS map with a custom tune, but in the sense that a more conservative OTS map is more practical because although power is left on the table, you can pretty much run it year round without changing it constantly depending on outside factors and have a somewhat reliable setup that you don't have to be constantly on top of. Makes sense to me. But on the other hand, it would be nice to have available adjustablity for guys like us that are trying to push it and make numbers.



No I am saying that there really isn't anything left on the table. If with this custom tune you are disable safety measures, detuning knock sensitivity and such there is some room to make a few.. yes like 2-3 hp more. If you are talking about a truely custom built application such as the engines in the APR race cars that are on spec fuel and run under much more controlled conditions then a street car then there are gains to be had. But for a street car no the gains aren't as great as people make them out to be and i did mean the OTS tune would probably beat most custom tunes day to day.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

Can the personality conflicts and drama stay out of this? There is some good info in this thread and people are generally being non-confrontational... it'd be nice to keep it that way. 



[email protected] said:


> Arin would have to clarify again but yes I believe he means just tuning not building the car if it is a truely custom tune. They don't charge 200 bucks for mechanical labor as far as I know but that price is not out of line for custom tuning of that level including the dyno. Dialing in a even with a Ko3 could easily take 20 hours. Doing something more involved with bigger injectors, different MAF size, larger turbo at different boost levels could easily exceed 40 hours.
> 
> Again ARin would have to clarify but you are talking about mechanical labor being included and I'm 99% sure Arin didn't mean that in his first post.


If you read further, Arin replied and confirmed that it was labour + tuning, not including hardware. 40-60 hours tuning an OTS map is not possible.


WhyteA3 said:


> One question - that 40-60 hours includes a complete build (labor time), start to finish, including tuning but not parts, correct?





[email protected] said:


> Correct. The 40-60 is also an estimate. If it turns out you only want to maximize something like the k03 we may factor in less time.


If Arin misread my question and they actually do require that much time to tune a car... then I'm not even sure what to say :what:.



[email protected] said:


> No I am saying that there really isn't anything left on the table. If with this custom tune you are disable safety measures, detuning knock sensitivity and such there is some room to make a few.. yes like 2-3 hp more. If you are talking about a truely custom built application such as the engines in the APR race cars that are on spec fuel and run under much more controlled conditions then a street car then there are gains to be had. But for a street car no the gains aren't as great as people make them out to be and i did mean the OTS tune would probably beat most custom tunes day to day.


I guess we'll just have to disagree, Chris. I firmly believe the opposite, that you will never be able to match a custom tune with a detuned, generalized and safe map for the masses. 

I know you will say 'they don't apply,' but it's worth showing some custom versus OTS map dyno differences on different, but modern EFI, platforms -

Two Subaru -



















Evo - 

Baseline,









Tuned,









I have to get back to work, but there are more out there on different platforms too....


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> Can the personality conflicts and drama stay out of this? There is some good info in this thread and people are generally being non-confrontational... it'd be nice to keep it that way.


Unfortunately there are parties here who would rather throw around personal attacks then actually add something to threads.




> If you read further, Arin replied and confirmed that it was labour + tuning, not including hardware. 40-60 hours tuning an OTS map is not possible.
> 
> 
> If Arin misread my question and they actually do require that much time to tune a car... then I'm not even sure what to say :what:.


I read it all, nothing in Arins orignal post had anything to do with installing parts or any labor other then actually tuning. 20-40 hours is perfectly reasonable for a truely custom tune. I don't believe Arin meant the quote to be anything to do with installation of hardware and was 100% the aproximate hours of labor for tuning given all parts installed. 

The fact that it actually does take that long and you don't think it does only further proves my point about what is actually involved with tuning these cars and why self tune options and even existing companies doing custom tuning in different parts of the world can't match the performance of the OTS tunes. 




> I guess we'll just have to disagree, Chris. I firmly believe the opposite, that you will never be able to match a custom tune with a detuned, generalized and safe map for the masses.
> 
> I know you will say 'they don't apply,' but it's worth showing some custom versus OTS map dyno differences on different, but modern EFI, platforms -


There is no saying that these cars are optomized with this off the shelf tunes.

As I clearly stated already AF changes make no difference on these cars.

Boost is already pretty much maxed out

Timing is already being pulled on stock cars and tuned cars so there is no timing to be added.

Please show/tell me where this added power is coming from. 

If you want custom tuning done by a professional and its going to be limited range of situations and conditions like a race car then there are gains to be found since you can then disable or "soften" some of the factory safeties. If you are talking about a street car that needs to be reliable and able to adapt to as many conditions as possible then no you will not make more power reliably. 

To stick to this market, custom tuning available all over the UK and Europe generally makes LESS power then the OTS tunes.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

I do want to point out it's totally possible for someone to make a custom tune that makes more power on the dyno than another but will totally not work at all on the street, therefor custom 'dyno' tuning really does not apply to the real world as tuning must also take place on the street.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Unfortunately there are parties here who would rather throw around personal attacks then actually add something to threads.
> 
> I read it all, nothing in Arins orignal post had anything to do with installing parts or any labor other then actually tuning. 20-40 hours is perfectly reasonable for a truely custom tune. I don't believe Arin meant the quote to be anything to do with installation of hardware and was 100% the aproximate hours of labor for tuning given all parts installed.
> 
> The fact that it actually does take that long and you don't think it does only further proves my point about what is actually involved with tuning these cars and why self tune options and even existing companies doing custom tuning in different parts of the world can't match the performance of the OTS tunes.


What is it about the FSI and TSI motor that is so different that it requires so much more time to tune? Timing, fueling, ignition advance, boost, MAF scaling... what else is there to this platform that is different from any other modern EFI ECU? I'm genuinely curious. A parameter change in one table will cause of chain effect of changes in other tables... like any ECU. 

To build a map from scratch on any car takes a ton of time and work. But once you already have a basemap, or an OTS map, it shouldn't take much more time to optimize it. With a good basemap (ie. doesn't require much tweaking), I've had a tuner finish a couple cars in 45 minutes each (only road tuning). Again, a different platform than this one, so why the difference?



[email protected] said:


> There is no saying that these cars are optomized with this off the shelf tunes.
> 
> As I clearly stated already AF changes make no difference on these cars.
> 
> ...


So how are you guys making more power with Stage 1? If everything is maxed out except for boost, and AFR changes don't mean squat, then the only way you're putting down higher numbers is with higher boost pressure and higher g/s. Is that right? If hardware changes are really the only way to improve power over the stock and OTS tunes, then it sounds like the Bosch calibrators have done a pretty good job. 



[email protected] said:


> If you want custom tuning done by a professional and its going to be limited range of situations and conditions like a race car then there are gains to be found since you can then disable or "soften" some of the factory safeties. If you are talking about a street car that needs to be reliable and able to adapt to as many conditions as possible then no you will not make more power reliably.


What about just the ability to pick and choose from different hardware and to set up your build as you like, even if it's just for putting around town in a grossly overpowered, laggy car? That's another huge factor in finding someone to custom tune your vehicle - the ability to modify as you and your budget allow. A guy who pieces his build together with an oddball turbo, a no-name big MAF intake, a 3.5" exhaust, big ass cams... you can make up any random scenario with the worst or best parts... is really out of luck. Or how about a guy who gets halfway through a build but runs out of cash and has to run a K03 with injectors, an intake, a big exhaust, and built heads? 

It just seems very restricted... but I guess it all revolves around the number of hours and difficulty in tuning this platform, regardless of the gains and the limitations on the number of maps available. That's what I think I'm missing if I'm understanding where you're coming from. If my speed density tune using the Autronic SM4 standalone could be completely dialled in way, way fewer hours than what Arin quoted, and I'd like to say that ECU offers way more control than a production car ECU, then I'm truly confused. I was surprised when someone posted that some of the tuning companies weren't even going to bother with a K04 kit/tune for the TSI platform. 



[email protected] said:


> I do want to point out it's totally possible for someone to make a custom tune that makes more power on the dyno than another but will totally not work at all on the street, therefor custom 'dyno' tuning really does not apply to the real world as tuning must also take place on the street.


Of course. Loading and especially air flow (cooling) on a dyno will always be different in a dyno cell than on a street. I personally don't know one tuner that doesn't finish a dyno tune on the street. In fact, from my personal experience, because of the different loading, generally lower IAT's, and more airflow, guys can make more boost and pull better numbers on the road than on a dyno. My experience talking....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

WhyteA3 said:


> What is it about the FSI and TSI motor that is so different that it requires so much more time to tune? Timing, fueling, ignition advance, boost, MAF scaling... what else is there to this platform that is different from any other modern EFI ECU? I'm genuinely curious. A parameter change in one table will cause of chain effect of changes in other tables... like any ECU.



Here is 1 example of extreme complexity: 

The TSI's engine management actually models the air flow over the parts of the turbocharger and uses that information as inputs into equations used for different control strategies. 



Basically you don't get a pretty list with 20 variables and a 10 page book on how to tune it. There are thousands of variables/maps/tables/etc and the book would be well over 5000 pages long and would be slightly different for each of the 100+ variations of ECU's out there. 

Basically consider this, it was so easy, it would be out there for all to tune just like all the other cars. Obviously it's not simple, thus why you don't see any real options out there. 

-Arin


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> If my speed density tune using the Autronic SM4 standalone could be completely dialled in way, way fewer hours than what Arin quoted, and I'd like to say that ECU offers way more control than a production car ECU, then I'm truly confused.



This is really the key here and what Arin just expanded on. Your Autronic doesn't offer more control, in fact there is probably more going on just to control the throttle body in an med9/17 ecu then there is in that entire autronic ecu. 

With most standalones and even other self tune factory ecus you change one parameter and nothing else is affected or maybe one or two other maps. With these ecus you change one thing and you can literally throw off hundreds of other things, some stuff you never expected to be even affected.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

Wow, Jesus. This ECU sounds like a dirty whore. Unless you completely dumb down the car, it sounds like we're at your mercy... which isn't entirely bad, it's just not as flexible as I would have wished. Aw well.

If nothing else, I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks for the info, Chris and Arin.


----------



## Hulaj (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello,
at first sorry for my English, I hope everybody understands.
I wont to show You different poin of view. How we do it in Europe in Poland.

You are asking about self-tune or custom and all You guys say like this is something extraordinary. Here in Poland there are no two the same tuned GTI's. I mean ECU remap. Every engine is slightly different and there is no possibility that someone does one ecu program and pusches it to every other GTI that comes in. In my case It took several different programs and dyno each time to get the right one.We ,here in Poland, wonder how this is possible that anyone does it like that, via some boxes and p&p stuff for everybody from serial production. Even stock ECU's are different, the same program in one case gives 245hp and in the other ,the same program pusches up to 265KM! - dyno checked( maha).

We dont have any DV, or PCV' issues, no ping-pong in high rpm's , no cam-followers failures after small millage. Maybe this is the case of those failures? Not enough custom, specialy for your car, to much serial production. Car is like a woman , needs extra care. Every intake, new IC , exhaust needs remap done just for You, exactly for the parts that You installed.

Dont get me wrong but I just wanted to present my ,maybe different or new, poin of view and show You the other way.

The same was with DSG remap, there was no choice between stage 1,2 or 3. Tuner asked me : what do I wont, what rpm's for each gear, downshift , LC rpm etc. done just for me, exactly as I wanted to be. It was the same company so man even suggested when it will give the best benefits for my car.

What do You think ? Or if I am compleatly wrong please punish me.
Thanks,


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

I like this guys pov.. I think its custom over there because of less policing of the streets occur..that maybe completely irrelevant. Is there any examples u have of these customs tunes and how they function over there?


----------



## redGTI24 (May 10, 2010)

Sign of the apocalypse #12000934: APR and Revo agreeing on something. :laugh:


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

dubman6 said:


> I like this guys pov.. I think its custom over there because of less policing of the streets occur..that maybe completely irrelevant. Is there any examples u have of these customs tunes and how they function over there?


It has nothing to do with policing the streets. It's just the way the market in Europe operates. Someone obviously started offering custom tunes so the rest of the players in that market had to do the same. There is obviously a demand for it, here and in Europe, but the companies in Europe had to supply it since clearly one or two did. 



Hulaj said:


> Hello,
> at first sorry for my English, I hope everybody understands.
> I wont to show You different poin of view. How we do it in Europe in Poland.
> 
> ...


Who is your tuner? What company does he work for/with? Sounds like your situation is exactly what I've been asking for in this thread.


----------



## weenerdog3443 (Jul 5, 2007)

Eurodyne maestro ftw


----------



## Hulaj (Nov 6, 2007)

http://www.compsport.pl/ this is my tuners web. It is in Polisch but You can check it out.Owner of the CompSport has a3 AXX custom tuned at 420hp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H-pC6wHWok (black one).

I am a moderator in the biggest polisch mkV club so i know almost every well tuned GTI in Poland. 

Depending on a car it is possible to make at most ~270hp on k03 with 100octane gasoline. But! depending on a car, ex. my GTI w. DSG. At first like most of us I did ECU remap and it gave ****ty 230hp. Why? becouse some DSG ecu has a limited torque on 350Nm and there was big drop of power on high rpm's  (I wouldnt know that after just programming and without dyno each time) and the other guy who had 2006 GTI (my 2005 EU) after the same programming had 245hp (the same weather conditions).We had to fool a DSG unit and on the new software it was around 240 hp, we added s3 IC and custom exhaust and the result was 252hp as i remember (friends with the same set up ,up to 270hp). Then I added Dbilas intake and did remap once again. 

Now I am running k04 it was 301hp on stock fuel pump and 326 on autotech on 98octane fuel, which would be around 350 on 100octan. Now I had my DSG unit remapped, the max rpm's went higher so it is crutial to do the remap once again becouse lets say "ecu doesnt know what to do i rmp's that it newer been before", so I did. Without that the torque graph would fall down rapidly after reaching stock rpm's limit. 

After each stage when comparing to other GTI's I was 10-15hp worse, the problem besides DSG unit at first, was less sufficient fuel pump than in the other GTI's, autotech did the job.

After each programming ,it is very important to take a test drive with vagcomp and get logs for analyse. Even if GTI before yours had no problems, logs OK it doesn't mean that in your case ecu wont throw check engine light. I cant imagine that after tuning, on my way home, flasches check light  or after installing some expensive exhaust, this is unfair.

I have this nice strange feeling that my car is one of a kind, becouse everything was done specially for me, doubble checked every time and extra safe. Thats maybe why since 2005 (new car) I didnt have any issues known from vwvortex or golfmkv.com. And the same about my GTI friends from Poland.

If I had a choice I would never tune my car with some "ready to go" or p&p software.

Oh and I am not saying that APR, Revo etc. is bad, just that custom might be better for some:thumbup:.

We have our small theory about US ECU programming market, but maybe next time


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

No no, no next time...keep this thread goin. You were the person we were waiting for. Im definitely interested in this too now. The question is no longer can it be done? but how its done? Any chance of expanding overseas??


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

It is already here, well, not this guy but it is! If you don't have the money you cannot talk about it here...But it is here! The big companies will knock and tear apart anything that gets in their path. They do this and put it down but have not even tried it out. 

It is the responsibility of the small companies to get the word out but it is difficult when all the extra money goes into tools. 

My custom tune is in my signature!




dubman6 said:


> No no, no next time...keep this thread goin. You were the person we were waiting for. Im definitely interested in this too now. The question is no longer can it be done? but how its done? Any chance of expanding overseas??


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

PDI said:


> It is already here, well, not this guy but it is! If you don't have the money you cannot talk about it here...But it is here! The big companies will knock and tear apart anything that gets in their path. They do this and put it down but have not even tried it out.
> 
> It is the responsibility of the small companies to get the word out but it is difficult when all the extra money goes into tools.
> 
> My custom tune is in my signature!


 your signature would be where??lol


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

To the left under my handle! 




dubman6 said:


> your signature would be where??lol


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

Oh jeez! Im a ritard!lol Im thinkin a sig like mine. I didnt even think to look there.:thumbup:


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

blah. they are only in NY and crap.


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

ya i kno, ticked me off too!


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

Actually they're not just in NY!


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

Well all i see is NY, i cant find anything else on google. And this guy isnt that "expensive" for a custom tune. A Stage 2 2.0T tune is $495(technically cheaper) And a Stage 3 2.0T tune is $595. If there is anyway to get this guy to FL im buyin!:thumbup: Cuz nobody truly has 55hp gain at the wheels.


----------



## Hulaj (Nov 6, 2007)

dubman6 said:


> No no, no next time...keep this thread goin. You were the person we were waiting for. Im definitely interested in this too now. The question is no longer can it be done? but how its done? Any chance of expanding overseas??


 450.00$ for remap it is good price if incl. dyno. In Poland it is a little bit more expensive. But every another remap is ussually done free of charge or just symbolic payment is needed. 

I dont think that expanding overseas is possible, and NO i wont say what my theory is ,becouse my Englisch is not good enough to save my self from the anger of big fisches on vwvortex. But it is always about the money  

Ater reading whole post once again I must say: You shouldn't belive in everything what forum sponsor says


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

PDI said:


> It is already here, well, not this guy but it is! If you don't have the money you cannot talk about it here...But it is here! The big companies will knock and tear apart anything that gets in their path. They do this and put it down but have not even tried it out.
> 
> It is the responsibility of the small companies to get the word out but it is difficult when all the extra money goes into tools.
> 
> My custom tune is in my signature!


 
There is a big difference between putting something down and putting out the facts.

Just simply looking at the list of cars that are "tuned" by the company in your link shows how much of a joke it is. They purchased a generic tuning suite, they specialize in nothing and therefore cannot possibly optimize these cars the same way that people that specialize in them do. Those suites are a few grand, give you the option to tune anything and everything but touch maybe 1% of the maps that specialized tuners are. As Arin pointed out it may make peak power on the dyno for a day but it does not translate to the street. 

It is the responsiblity of the small companies to get the word out, if they are offering a product that is even close to the same level, this is not...


----------



## Massboykie (Aug 15, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> ....First, you'll need to purchase some sort of read/write tools....


 I have some more EFI etc tools and info listed on VAGLinks. Might also help. 

http://www.vaglinks.com/VAGLinks.asp#OBDII 

Cheers 
Massboykie


----------



## Serrari (Jun 29, 2008)

I will be taking my car to the dyno with a "custom tune" lets see how much power I can put down. :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

Serrari said:


> I will be taking my car to the dyno with a "custom tune" lets see how much power I can put down. :thumbup:


 Custom tuning is different then self tuning

Self tuning is different then home/consumer flashing

These should not be confused as they are all different.


----------



## Serrari (Jun 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Custom tuning is different then self tuning
> 
> Self tuning is different then home/consumer flashing
> 
> These should not be confused as they are all different.


 My tuning is being done by a guy named turborabbit that lives in Greece. We have been tuning for days, I send him logs and he modifies the file, fine tuning is going to be at the dyno this week. Not running Unitronic anymore on the Cupra.


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

That F1 guy is a character. I remember he was at three dubs in a barrel show in deer park ny. He didn't even know his elbow from his *******.


----------



## z4313 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Car is like a woman , needs extra care.


 How true..... 

Nice info and viewpoints in this thread.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

z4313 said:


> How true.....


 Except your car is much more capable of adapting to changing situations


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

CMD is not quite as you describe! 7500 for master, 1000/year update, several thousand for software "editing", 1600 for 2010 MED17/EDC17 bootmode that has recovery/cloning capability. This is all euros! 

CMD is one of the most highly regarded tuning tool manufacturer's in the world. I found the prices on cmdtec.com! 

It really doesn't matter to me... 





[email protected] said:


> There is a big difference between putting something down and putting out the facts.
> 
> Just simply looking at the list of cars that are "tuned" by the company in your link shows how much of a joke it is. They purchased a generic tuning suite, they specialize in nothing and therefore cannot possibly optimize these cars the same way that people that specialize in them do. Those suites are a few grand, give you the option to tune anything and everything but touch maybe 1% of the maps that specialized tuners are. As Arin pointed out it may make peak power on the dyno for a day but it does not translate to the street.
> 
> It is the responsiblity of the small companies to get the word out, if they are offering a product that is even close to the same level, this is not...


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

PDI said:


> CMD is not quite as you describe! 7500 for master, 1000/year update, several thousand for software "editing", 1600 for 2010 MED17/EDC17 bootmode that has recovery/cloning capability. This is all euros!
> 
> CMD is one of the most highly regarded tuning tool manufacturer's in the world. I found the prices on cmdtec.com!
> 
> It really doesn't matter to me...


 Ok so you have done several things.. one prove you are associated with F1tuning..


Two helped prove my point that you are only using a generic tuning suite that only gives you a fraction of the information needed to fully tune these cars and come out with more then just a pretty peak dyno number. Just because you paid a lot of money for a generic tuning suite doesn't mean that you know how to use it or even have mastered the ecus or engines for the applications you are doing.

Three, actually been useful and shown some of the people asking here what the tools cost.


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

I can't speak for him or his knowledge! I have talked many times with him but he can only speak for him self! No one can judge or speak for him and what he has mastered!


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

PDI said:


> I can't speak for him or his knowledge! I have talked many times with him but he can only speak for him self! No one can judge or speak for him and what he has mastered!


 :what:


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

I like you sig. I am here in Portland, Maine for buisness. Seen bumper sticker that said it is a spah for ya cah!:laugh: 

But I can't speak for him! 



MFZERO said:


> :what:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Hulaj said:


> remap and it gave ****ty 230hp. Why? becouse some DSG ecu has a limited torque on 350Nm


 
DSG limiter..... 

Come on. You don't need DSG software to hit high Torque and HP figures. You only need on to hit those figures if the tuner has no idea how to properly adjust the ECU software. 

BTW, the reason you see many 'custom' maps in ROW situations is because the tuner does not know how to properly port the code from one ECU to another. This proper porting can only come after years of working with the ECU's and the correct knowhow to know what and why you are changing different variables. 

-Arin


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

PDI said:


> My custom tune is in my signature!


 f1tuning, 

LOL what a joke! True story from waterfest: 

Customer "Hey, I want to get a chip and this guy at F1 Tuning said APR is crap and his is so much better. This is for a 12v VR6 BTW" 

Me "Sure, they have to say stuff like that to see their products. Oh but btw, he's correct saying his is better because we don't even sell 12v vr6 software." 

Customer "Oh, so should I get it anyways? It's only 100 bucks" 

Me "Do you really trust them? Let me point out a few other tuners who are good" 

Pointed them out, sent him on his way.


----------



## PDI (Sep 24, 2008)

Great story! 




[email protected] said:


> f1tuning,
> 
> LOL what a joke! True story from waterfest:
> 
> ...


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

cool story. so whats the price for the stage 4??


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

PDI said:


> Great story!


 So is F1Tuning associated with singhautosport? 

lol


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

Wow dave i totally forgot about singh!!!! What ever happened to that kids car?


----------



## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

I cant believe this thread is still going. Obviously Revo and APR are gonna make everything seem so complicated because they want to keep in business. Lets talk to the 1.8t forum and see how they like the Maestro7. I bet they dont know how to tune their ecs either because they didnt buy some fancy tools and use to work for Bosch. Can anyone say Maestro 9?


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

My buddy had a 50trim 1.8T self tuned and raced a 50 trim tuned by uni i believe...pretty much the same mods and got smoked...take that for what its worth


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

IMAN973 said:


> Maestro7


 Let's see what other 'custom calibrators' think of Meastro7.

http://www.chiptuners.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8193&start=0


Like I said, if it was easy to do then everyone would be doing it. Do you really think my posts on here are stopping people from tuning if it's so cheap and simple? I really don't care... All I want to do is tell this guy what he's getting into and to answer the question "Why can't I custom tune my car like my buddies WRX."


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

Boxer and FSI's are 2 completely different platforms and cant even be compared. Discrepancy numero uno!:thumbup:


----------



## Hulaj (Nov 6, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> DSG limiter.....
> 
> Come on. You don't need DSG software to hit high Torque and HP figures. You only need on to hit those figures if the tuner has no idea how to properly adjust the ECU software.
> 
> ...


 2005 GTI DSG, do you have those in US in EU ver? NO? i thought so...some had TQ limiter set @350Nm in EU version. EVERY car is different. Dont try to discredit me, can be difficult. 

About the reason why I had many maps, I knew that it is going to be that way 

My tuner have enough know-how and good-will to tune every car in the individual, the most proper way for Your car, this takes much more time, but not only money matters! 

I think that this is more difficult than just to put the same map for every car and get check light, or fuel cuts and say that your fuel pump is too small and U need to spend extra 200$ for autotech I just say that I dont want any fuel cuts and I get software that doesn't pusch Your fuel pump to the limits. I have a choice and car goes the way I want , not my tuner. 


BTW: I wouldn't write that sbdy doesnt have know-how after discussion on the internet  about the guy that runs his own tuning company for years without any customers complaines. 

And about years of practice with ECU: The GTI in EU was earlier than in US so I am sure that my tuner has been writing maps for 2.0TFSi a little bit earlier even than APR . 

Dont bite me guys, just wanted to present my POV , i have never drove gti remapped in US or seen the Revo or GIAC maps . Dont behave like there is nothing more than APR , revo etc.on earth, or every other solution is bad, it is always good to check companys reputation, everything can be done good or bad :thumbup:


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Hulaj said:


> 2005 GTI DSG, do you have those in US in EU ver? NO? i thought so...some had TQ limiter set @350Nm in EU version. EVERY car is different. Dont try to discredit me, can be difficult.
> 
> About the reason why I had many maps, I knew that it is going to be that way
> 
> ...


 Oettinger :laugh:


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

dubman6 said:


> Boxer and FSI's are 2 completely different platforms and cant even be compared. Discrepancy numero uno!:thumbup:


 Obviously. This thread isn't about comparing an EJ257 to an FSI motor. It's about having your car custom tuned to your mods in the FSI/TFSI world. 

The fundamentals of tuning a gasoline engine don't change - air, spark, fuel. Boxer, inline, V-, direct injection... same ideas, but the ECU definition for this FSI motor is a lot more complex than some others.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Hulaj said:


> 2005 GTI DSG, do you have those in US in EU ver? NO?


 Moot point. 

APR flys our engineers to other countries to calibrate european and rest of world ECU's in their local markets with local fuels.


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

You know what else is a moot point? This thread!


----------



## Banned 4 Life (Jan 25, 2007)

dubman6 said:


> You know what else is a moot point? This thread!


 
:laugh: Thought the same thing to myself this morning when I signed in and saw this thread still going.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

What would you guys rather? Another cam follower thread?


----------



## Banned 4 Life (Jan 25, 2007)

WhyteA3 said:


> What would you guys rather? Another cam follower thread?


 Touché, well played sir, well played.:beer: But this thread is moot cause all your bitching and whining ain't gonna change a damn thang.:laugh:


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

^Nothing will change for you and the rest of the cattle herd. This thread served it's purpose for me. There's some good info in here to be pursued.


----------



## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

^ i agree with you.


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

There is alot of useful info on here. But the crowd this applies to is small, and not large enough to justify creating ur own custom tune. I think ppl are happy with the p&p tunes because they just wanna go fast, numbers really dont mean anything.


----------



## SCIROCCO SPEED (Dec 6, 2002)

WhyteA3 said:


> ^Nothing will change for you and the rest of the cattle herd. This thread served it's purpose for me. There's some good info in here to be pursued.


 While I certainly can identify with your point of view, I'm not really digging your "holier than thou" attitude. Yes, information came to the surface in this thread, and its usefulness is to be determined by the reader. I think that (some of) the cattle here simply figured out that there isn't a need to reinvent the wheel. The numbers provided by the OTS tunes are numbers that work. We accept the fact that these cars came with tiny K03s, and the files provided by the big companies have been tuning for a long time, on multiple platforms. We also accept that the car we chose to buy lies within the minority of the tuning scene. And I appreciate that the company I chose to go with for my tune also writes files for porsches. 

Would I like to see someone come up with a custom tune for their FSI? Yes, absolutely. Will I awed by the results and functionality? Probably not. 

But to recap, I would much rather read thru this thread again than another Cam Follower or Sea Foam Valve cleaning thread:thumbup:


----------



## Banned 4 Life (Jan 25, 2007)

SCIROCCO SPEED said:


> *While I certainly can identify with your point of view, I'm not really digging your "holier than thou" attitude. Yes, information came to the surface in this thread, and its usefulness is to be determined by the reader. I think that (some of) the cattle here simply figured out that there isn't a need to reinvent the wheel.* The numbers provided by the OTS tunes are numbers that work. We accept the fact that these cars came with tiny K03s, and the files provided by the big companies have been tuning for a long time, on multiple platforms. We also accept that the car we chose to buy lies within the minority of the tuning scene. And I appreciate that the company I chose to go with for my tune also writes files for porsches.
> 
> Would I like to see someone come up with a custom tune for their FSI? Yes, absolutely. Will I awed by the results and functionality? Probably not.
> 
> But to recap, I would much rather read thru this thread again than another Cam Follower or Sea Foam Valve cleaning thread:thumbup:


 ^^^ This. Spot On Scirocco.:beer:


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

^ 











SCIROCCO SPEED said:


> While I certainly can identify with your point of view, I'm not really digging your "holier than thou" attitude. Yes, information came to the surface in this thread, and its usefulness is to be determined by the reader. I think that (some of) the cattle here simply figured out that there isn't a need to reinvent the wheel. The numbers provided by the OTS tunes are numbers that work. We accept the fact that these cars came with tiny K03s, and the files provided by the big companies have been tuning for a long time, on multiple platforms. We also accept that the car we chose to buy lies within the minority of the tuning scene. And I appreciate that the company I chose to go with for my tune also writes files for porsches.
> 
> Would I like to see someone come up with a custom tune for their FSI? Yes, absolutely. Will I awed by the results and functionality? Probably not.
> 
> But to recap, I would much rather read thru this thread again than another Cam Follower or Sea Foam Valve cleaning thread:thumbup:


 No attitude here. The 'cattle' comment was for the Toronterican. 

You're right. K03 or K04, Stage 1 or Stage 2... there's only so much you can do, as was perfectly demonstrated in the Revo vs. Mexico-Unitronic thread. No tuner can magically pull power and torque out of the sky. Using basic pump fuel and following the recipe, so to speak, gives you about 4-5 pre-set tuning options (ie. 4-5 tuning companies with OTS maps). But if you deviate from what you're told to run (fuel and mods), you're stuck paying big bucks to allow your car to run well. That's what I questioned, and why I questioned. The mindset in this tuning world is different than what I'm used to. No big deal... but there are other ways too (which I now realize), which is cool. I wasn't aware of what they were prior to this thread, so this thread has delivered for me.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Banned 4 Life said:


> Touché, well played sir, well played.:beer: But this thread is moot cause all your bitching and whining ain't gonna change a damn thang.:laugh:


 Bitching and whining like you did in the BSH throttle pipe thread? 

Just sayin....


----------



## Banned 4 Life (Jan 25, 2007)

crew219 said:


> Bitching and whining like you did in the BSH throttle pipe thread?
> 
> Just sayin....


 Cept I put my money where my mouth is and was the first one to purhase and recieve the TP, and I also bought a DVC-30 kit from them just like I said I would. I'm just sayin'.Ya know??? Somehow I don't see this guy shelling out 8-15k just to tune his own car. 

Not to mention my point was that I was contacted privately an assured a date I would be able to order, that didn't happen. The point is MOOT cuz I got my ish and was more than pleased with how I was treated and the service rendered before, during, and after my purchase.:thumbup:To Justin and Phil at BSH. 

Maybe it was naive of me to plan my build dates around a promised time of availability, but thats how I do business and run my office. If I tell a client that our services or products will be rendered or provided by a certain date, then they are. I have very few days where I can just sit around and work on my car. I have a career, not a job, a house, a GF and many other obligations other than Vortex or my car. That being said I understand delays can happen, and Justin and Phil both showed me their appreciaton as a customer and provided me with Cutomer service and "Incentives" to make up for any discrepencies in the information provided to me. Thet were both very professional and appreciative of my business, as I am for the care they put into making sure I was a VERY satisfied customer. 

Finally, you analogy of the two situations have zero correlation, this guy is complainign about the lack of self-tuning capabilities w/o knowing how complicated mapping, programming, and flashing our ECUs is. I was complaining about being promised a product by a certain date and a company not delivering on that. In the end I got what I wanted and more, and the last time I checked NO ONE(APR, REVO, UNI, GIAC) has even suggested that they would be making such program or product available with the exception of Uni-Suite, which was aimed at BT owners and has yet to be produced for customer use. So keep trying to look cool to all your Vortex friends cuz really you just sound like a douche to me right now. 

ps. I'm not gay, so stop winking at me.:sly: 



WhyteA3 said:


> ^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 If you ignorance wasn't apparent by the way you have spoken to many of the authorities of tuning knowledge for VAG cars, before, it is now with that comment. Way to show your true colours. Yup spelled with a "U" cuz I'm Canadian and thats how we roll.


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

I am a Canadian, you 'tard. And learn how to use a comma. The rest of the puke you posted isn't worth responding to. Talk about butt hurt.


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

:sly:.....:what:......:screwy:..... WTF is goin on now!?!?opcorn:


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

Who honestly thinks the OP is going to actually self tune his car? The horse is dead please stop beating him!


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

Uber-A3 said:


> Who honestly thinks the OP is going to actually self tune his car? The horse is dead please stop beating him!


 Look he can go to F1 or contact them haha....and he has the ability to go to eurodyne/tapp since hes in canada...custom tune for a K03 LOL what a ****in waste...hey maybe this time it will yield some real gains or not...OP look at the top times for these FWD cars...only 2 of of them are custom tunes and well they are and were sponsored....how fast do u reallly wanna go?!?! ur not gonna get below 11.0sec....not with this car....


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

Like I said after Toronto boy showed up with his useless comments, "This thread served it's purpose for me. There's some good info in here to be pursued." I was done... hard to tell? 

For the slow people, or the people who didn't read the whole thread, I first started this thread to see what custom tuning options are available. From the main companies, there are 0 options. From a few smaller tuning companies, there are a couple. For self-tuning options, as Arin posted, there are also options but they aren't cheap, nor are they easy to pursue, but there are possibilities. 

If software was available, I would tune my K03. It isn't, so I won't. End of story. However, if I did want to modify the car beyond the basic Stage 2+, then I will contact a few companies and a few other resources to see if I can get a more customized map for the fuel and mods. If software does eventually become available for the FSI/TFSI platforms, I'll be all over it, even for my '****in waste' K03. Custom is always better. Peace, I'm done. 

:thumbup:


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

dude...their are tuning options...if u dont like em dont try em, but dont knock it till u try it....get a free trial bro see how u like it....but i think deep down inside ur a JDM guy which is fine, whatever floats ur boat but dont underestimate the OTS tunes on this car bro...like i sed get the free stage 1 trial


----------



## WhyteA3 (Apr 12, 2006)

I have the GIAC flash already . 

ps. I meant there are no custom tuning options with the bigger companies, not options in general.


----------



## mk6_myke (Jul 16, 2009)

How do u like it? Cant decide on GIAC or APR


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

WhyteA3 said:


> I have the GIAC flash already .
> 
> ps. I meant there are no custom tuning options with the bigger companies, not options in general.


 Sorry to hear that....shoulda been around during the cracked turbo scare(similar to the cam follower craze) GIAC was the main culprit...something about high EGT's...............


----------



## 07wolfsburg (Mar 7, 2008)

08 passat turbo said:


> Sorry to hear that....shoulda been around during the cracked turbo scare(similar to the cam follower craze) GIAC was the main culprit...something about high EGT's...............


 Wrong. I believe Uni is the only major tuner who doen not have their name labeled to a cracked turbo


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

07wolfsburg said:


> Wrong. I believe Uni is the only major tuner who doen not have their name labeled to a cracked turbo


 Has nothing to do with which TUNER chosen, the casting in the stock k03 turbo is thin in the area they crack, stock cars with OEM tuning fail in the same area .  Bob.G


----------



## 07wolfsburg (Mar 7, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Has nothing to do with which TUNER chosen, the casting in the stock k03 turbo is thin in the area they crack, stock cars with OEM tuning fail in the same area .  Bob.G


I understand that. I should have been a little more clear. I was not insinuating that it was the tune causing cracked housing. I was just trying to state that giac was not the "main culprit" like previously stated.


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

Don't forget mpps. You can easily get a clone, but clones tend to brick ECMs. Lol.

WinOLS is quite a difficult program to understand, but one you get the hang of it it's rather easy. 



[email protected] said:


> If you want a hard core race calibration specifically created for your vehicle and your exact needs we can do it in house.
> 
> 
> If you want to do it on your own, you'll run into serious limitations.
> ...


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

time to resurrect this thread. 

to date: 

turborabbit has tune the highest HP FSI (sergio's cupra). 

im looking for a "custom tune." any suggestions? 

i need to run 136 bar FRP and tweak in my LPFP mods.


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> time to resurrect this thread.
> 
> to date:
> 
> ...


You answered your own question more or less 2 posts up 

MPPS yea thatll work, grab a BDM if/when it fails, BDM will recover. Ive got an original MPPS and it still fails here an there, a clone kwp2000+ cable has served me better


----------

