# Estimated Hp for my build



## G60Jetta1990 (Nov 5, 2007)

1.8L 8valve off a 89 jetta 
Forged Rods, Crank and Pistons for a Corrado
bahn brenner head gasket running about 7.5:1
Techtonics 268 degree cam
port and polish head
G60 Supercharger RS2 outlet
15 psi 
with intercooler
2.5" custom exhaust
Digi 1 system with power perfect piggy back system
42lbs injectors
Neuspeed adjustable cam
Snowperformance with Intercooler Spray
Nitrous Oxide 25- 50 shot


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## G60Jetta1990 (Nov 5, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*

_Modified by G60Jetta1990 at 6:43 PM 12-4-2007_


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*

170-180Hp + the nos


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## G60Jetta1990 (Nov 5, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (TBT-Syncro)*

Y So low


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*

small air pump, and a crappy head.


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*

Id run the G60 with an ABA block, JH head or large valve hydro head (P&P of course) Keep it 10:1 compression since youre running water/alky injection.


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## LeBlanc. (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_Id run the G60 with an ABA block, JH head or large valve hydro head (P&P of course) Keep it 10:1 compression since youre running water/alky injection.

Definitely do the JH head at least. An OBD1 ABA block with squirters will be a
really good idea. And, agreed on keeping the CR higher, like at least 8.5:1 or 9:1.
I know you're spraying, but 7.5:1 is too low, and your low end will certainly suffer 
if you're going to DD the thing. You'll hate it.
There are people literally giving away ABA blocks at this point, so you might as well
snatch one up.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (DirtyDisco.)*

well less then 200hp for sure...175 maybe

7.5:1?!? why!? thats CRAZY low....and worthless...8.5:1 is as low as you need to go
heads are crap, G60 are near worthless


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## LeBlanc. (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*

I mean, if you're already ******* around with the head, might as well build a
ABA-16v, and get serious. In the end, you'll end up spending less money,
and making waaaaaay more power.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (DirtyDisco.)*

yup...g60 suck...counterflow heads suck....yo'll never get high numbers with that setup


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## G60Jetta1990 (Nov 5, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*

What if I stroke the motor to 2.0Liter and buy an aftermarket cylinder head. Send the charger to bahn brenner for all the porting and complete over haul. Could I hit the 350hp mark


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60Jetta1990* »_What if I stroke the motor to 2.0Liter and buy an aftermarket cylinder head. Send the charger to bahn brenner for all the porting and complete over haul. Could I hit the 350hp mark

not a chance in hell.


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## G60Jetta1990 (Nov 5, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (TBT-Syncro)*

what would it take to get that high should I switch from the G60 to a bigger supercharger like eaton or vortech


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60Jetta1990* »_what would it take to get that high should I switch from the G60 to a bigger supercharger like eaton or vortech

eaton = the suck for higher boost levels
vortech = shoulda got a turbo
16v or 20v lysholm
Are you just trying to achieve a number, or do you have driveability goals?


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## G60Jetta1990 (Nov 5, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (TBT-Syncro)*

8v Numbers and just to show


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60Jetta1990* »_8v Numbers and just to show 

there are very few counter flow motors making more than 200Whp. If you go to cross flow turbo, you can easily make 250Whp.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (TBT-Syncro)*

you will NEVER hit 350 with a counter flow..never...
aba cross flow you can....with a TURBO.


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## 91gl (Aug 11, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_yup...g60 suck...counterflow heads suck....yo'll never get high numbers with that setup


a counterflow head ported to its limits will outflow an equally done up aba. but what makes the counterflow so poor is the design of have the intake manifold rest right on top of the exhaust manifold









anyway, if you are looking to go g60:
1. buy a corrado. trust me, it will be alot easier








2. Buy a complete g60 swap. very easy swap into a mk2. dont bother with forged this and that. i had my lysholmed stock long blocked rado running 18 psi daily spankin stage 2 mk5's.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (91gl)*

thats not all true at all....


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_thats not all true at all....

How so, I've seen a 1.9l counter flow turbo lay down 388whp in a Rabbit. The counter flow head can perform with the right amount of work. Like stated above what kills it is heat soak and poor intake manifold design. Nothing some custom fab wont and doesnt fix. 
But since cross flow heads are a dime a dozen now, almost everyone goes with them. If you want to talk to someone that makes good power on counter flow heads. Talk to Peter Tong on here, he knows what he's talking about.


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*

I've got an OBD1 Head complete 87K miles, I will sell it to you for $150 + shipping. Just need a few days to take it off the motor. The bottom end is for my 16V Turbo project. I will include a complete ABA head gasket set. 
For $50 more I can throw in a tubular exhaust manifold. AEG customized for better fit in MK3


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*

Unless you have to keep it stock looking for smog reasons ditch the plan you have and just turbo a 16v and be done with it. Why piss in the wind if you don't have to.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_counterflow heads suck

Ah ah...behave.The 3A & 2E oval intake port cylinder heads outflow *ANY* ABA cylinder head.








Whatever the case,8V's are a waste of time.Take it from someone that spent YEARS working on one developing custom parts just to make into something it is not.In reality an 8V Turbo/Supercharged motor in a light chassis such as a MKI or II makes a GREAT combination...fun little car thats zips around the block un-noticeable.If you are after performance thats where it ends....
Take my build for e.g.
* Ported + Polished 3A Cylinder head = 650US
* Autotech valve train = $700US (cams,valves blah blah)
* Turbocharger - T04E Compressor with 57 Trim compressor wheel,T3 turbine with 0.63A/R
Made 307whp....
So you blow $1000+US on an 8V head when those funds could be directed towards a 16V head which has ALOT more room to grow.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*

ok ok...i know you CAN make power from a counter flow 8v, but the time, money and short fuse of it isn't worthwhile imo....if you want 8v do a aba or do whats right and do a 16v!







16v hp is so much easier to get over 300 to 400 hp


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*

The problem is we're building the wrong cyl heads. Time to set up to an engine with a proper head design (ie Honda).


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_Time to set up to an engine with a proper head design (ie Honda).

Both the 16V & 20V heads are more than up to the task.If I was to develop a completely new cylinder head using Honda's V-Tec technology no one would buy it just because some people here are not very mature when it comes to performance.


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Both the 16V & 20V heads are more than up to the task.If I was to develop a completely new cylinder head using Honda's V-Tec technology no one would buy it just because some people here are not very mature when it comes to performance.


No their not. Look at all motor 20v or 16v builds, they struggle to get past 200whp on pump at 2l's of displacement. While 1.8l Honda engines see 200whp with mild builds. Lets not even talk about boost. How many 900+ hp 20v's are there?


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*

If you follow the following formula the descision is easy.
Starting from a baseline of an 8V 1.8L engine
120 - 130 HP = Spend a fortune on Counterflow parts or ABA OBD1 Head and cam
130 - 150 HP = Forget counterflow and go with above head on an ABA block
150 - 180 HP = ABA Block + 16V head, cams, exhaust, chip, P&P
200 - 250 HP = ABA Block + 16V head + Turbo (12-14lbs)
250 to ??? HP = Above plus all the bells & whistles


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*

You are doing the following









_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_Look at all motor 20v or 16v builds, they struggle to get past 200whp on pump at 2l's of displacement.

Thats because very few people try to make them go beyond 200whp.I can think of only 2 people on here who have nasty I-4 NA set ups - Mendra and Jarod.

_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
While 1.8l Honda engines see 200whp with mild builds. Lets not even talk about boost. 

Well I wouldnt call porting,polishing,cams,etc mild but thats ok as the B18C is rated as the #1 most tuneable engine in the world next to the 4G-63.I would expect them to see 200whp from them without even scratching my pocket.It is much easier to see results when you have 1000 people doing the same thing vs 2 and 3.The 9A engine is over 15 years old now and people are only NOW modifying them to the point you are talking about.

_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
How many 900+ hp 20v's are there?

That I know of?2..and thats due to a simple fact that *VW/Audi owners are not interested in building generators*.Go drive a 900hp B18C or K20A and tell me how it feels off boost.Does not make a fun grocery getter....


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*

very well said..
the pic above says it all..there shouldnt even be talk about comparing vw to honda heads blah blah..it makes not difference. in the end there will ALWAYS be someone who built a faster car than you. especially if you are tryin to build a streetable car.
with that said, the g-ladder charger simply put is a very in-efficiant charger for any motor. Gayle Banks has stated "in an motorsports event where both superchargers and turbochargers are allowed, the turbo cars always win. turbocharges are simply better at making power" (not exactly his words, but thats to the best of my memory







)
if all out power is your goal, start with a solid base. 8v turbos are generally good for around 200-250 hp with a mild build an small-ish turbo. There is no data to support which 8v head (counterflow vs crossflow) produces more power. 16vs are good for 300-350 with similar setups. i havnt seen many s/c setups that can be done for simlar cost to make similar numbers


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*

If anyone on the Tex is looking for 900HP+ they really need to start looking into growing a mullett and buying a Camaro.
I have driven many many cars in the 20+ years I have had a license. From 3 cylinders to 12 cylinders, from 40HP to 700HP. The ones I have found the best to drive had in the range of 150 - 400HP. Any more than that and you can't get the power to the ground. Any less and they really can't get out of the way of their own exhaust.
I have found that the build and the planning is 90% of the fun of tuning. The ultimate goal of power is really unimportant. Doing something that someone else has not is much more satisfying than buying a kit or following the herd like a lemming.
When I first got into Dubs RPI was doing the "out of the box" things like a VR6 in an A2 GTI with Synchro 4WD. THAT is amazing. A Honda Vtec with an "cookie cutter" pre-built turbo setup is BS. I don't care if it makes 2000HP and runs on panther piss.


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (97'BlueGT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97’BlueGT* »_ I don't care if it makes 2000HP and runs on panther piss.


Actually, making 2000HP on Feline Urine might be impressive!


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_

That I know of?2..and thats due to a simple fact that *VW/Audi owners are not interested in building generators*.Go drive a 900hp B18C or K20A and tell me how it feels off boost.Does not make a fun grocery getter....


Yeah, cuz 2l engines with 9:1 compression and big cams are awful to drive on the street.







But all motor 20v's with huge cams drive just perfect. Get your head out of your ass already. 
When it comes down to it VW engines are awful designs. Took them to the late 90's to produce an engine thats "ok" while Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi have producing engines much more efficient for years and years.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
When it comes down to it VW engines are awful designs. Took them to the late 90's to produce an engine thats "ok" while Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi have producing engines much more efficient for years and years. 

that is great, but still absolutly pointless in this discussion








the OP is building a VW with a VW motor, he didnt ask "hey how much hp do all these other motors make compared to mine" 
who cares if vw's are behind in technology, thats the fun in making them faster than the other guys










_Modified by VWralley at 1:27 PM 12-11-2007_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
Yeah, cuz 2l engines with 9:1 compression and big cams are awful to drive on the street.







But all motor 20v's with huge cams drive just perfect. Get your head out of your ass already.
 
Again...comparing apples with oranges.

_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
When it comes down to it VW engines are awful designs. Took them to the late 90's to produce an engine thats "ok" while Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi have producing engines much more efficient for years and years. 

Well maybe you can share some light as to what they are doing wrong.


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_ 
Again...comparing apples with oranges.
Well maybe you can share some light as to what they are doing wrong.


Why dont you since you're so smart. It should be easy as the points are easily seen.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_

Why dont you since you're so smart. It should be easy as the points are easily seen.

We try to encourage a mature attitude in this forum.If your looking for an argument then the 1.8T forum is a couple of clicks up.Either contribute to the thread or simply keep your fingers to yourself.Enflamed ego's are not needed here.
So again....what would you improve since VW built such crappy engines.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*

do you know the crew you are fighting with on here?! if not..learn something 
some of the designs of the motors are not as great as others, so what...go buy a honda or a evo and get off these threads. saves us the hassle of saying the same truth over and over again....
8v counter flow<aba 8v cross flow< 16v><20V <open ports on all>your info.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
8v counter flow<aba 8v cross flow< 16v><20V <open ports on all>your info.

is it bad that i could read that without a pause and completly understand it?








i think its pretty safe to say that designing a new cylinder head is a bit off topic and out of reach for most dub entusiats...


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_ Well maybe you can share some light as to what they are doing wrong.

heads flow like crap, archaic combustion chamber design, mismatched engine output and displacement in proportion to vehicle size and weight.
it's not that they aren't capable, and believe me, I love proving it, but VW's just don't have the aftermarket "go-fast" support that the japanese cars do. Plus, from a german standpoint, the car comes from the factory "pre tuned", they know more than the tuners do, so they make the cars purposely hard to tune and get massive power out of.


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (VWralley)*

Everyone settle down and take a breath.
Last time I checked this was "VW" Vortex, unless you are using another manufacturers info to make a CONSTRUCTIVE point please refrain from bashing VW.
A few points for all of you to consider.
Many of you (not all) probably were not even born or were in Grade School when the 85' GTI 8V was motortrends "Car of the Year"
Even the current 20V turbo engines can trace their lineage all the way back there, and before to the 1.6L engines in the 70's Rabitt's. To say VW makes crap engines is like saying the Romans built crap water systems.
Yeah, have there been advances in technology brought to market by the Japanese? Certainly, but consider this with an honest answer.
Do you actually KNOW OF and can CONFIRM a Vtec Honda putting out 350HP on the STOCK bottom end, with over 120,000 Miles on it?
Do you know ANYONE with a Mitsubishi motor with over 100,000 miles on it that doesn't have to add oil weekly??
How many of these 500HP+ Rice Burners actually DRIVE to the Track 100 miles or more?
One of the main reasons why the Japanese car aftermarket is so big is NEW Japanese car owners don't keep their cars as long as NEW Euro car owners do. This means that while on the average a Honda or Toyota may have more resale value early on it its life. They tend to get to the third or fourth owner much more quickly than a VW. The reality is that you never (or very rarely) sell a car for anywhere near what you paid for it. This drives the price down rather quickly with each successive owner.
Now with so many 10 year old Hondas on their 5th owners they are cheap. Cheap cars are usually bought by younger, more aggresive, more "Fast & Furious" type drivers. SO BIG DEMAND = MORE SUPPLIERS looking to cash in. The big aftermarket means that less creative or technically minded owners are tuning. This means that suppliers need to develop MASS MARKET solutions.
How many Honda owners are doing anywhere near the level of fabrication, calculation that VW owners are? 
If you want the "Barbie Dream Machine" Mitsu Eclipse with only minimal assembly required, go elsewhere.
If you want the Johnny Mullett "Smoke em' till they blow" 900HP Monster you need to go elsewhere.
If you want a car that is quick, responsive, durable, starts reliably and you can drive in 95 degree heat and 10 degree snow storms. Then stay right here on the TEX!


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_do you know the crew you are fighting with on here?! if not..learn something 
some of the designs of the motors are not as great as others, so what...go buy a honda or a evo and get off these threads. saves us the hassle of saying the same truth over and over again....
8v counter flow<aba 8v cross flow< 16v><20V <open ports on all>your info.


I know who he is and he's been a complete idiot from the first post here on Vortex. See, you dont know who I am and thats what I like because you see a join date and a post count and then assume.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_

I know who he is and he's been a complete idiot from the first post here on Vortex. See, you dont know who I am and thats what I like because you see a join date and a post count and then assume.









hmmm, gonna go out on a limb here and guess its a new account because you got banned for being a jackass with your old one.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_you will NEVER hit 350 with a counter flow..never...
aba cross flow you can....with a TURBO.

Never say never...
With the right porting/cam and turbo size 350 is achievable.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (ABF Jeff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABF Jeff* »_*I love proving it, but VW's just don't have the aftermarket "go-fast" support that the japanese cars do*.

And there lies the problem,not the design itself....VW did not build a horrible engine. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (97'BlueGT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97’BlueGT* »_
Many of you (not all) probably were not even born or were in Grade School when the 85' GTI 8V was motortrends "Car of the Year"



Gradumacated high school the year before.


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (97'BlueGT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97’BlueGT* »_If you follow the following formula the descision is easy.
Starting from a baseline of an 8V 1.8L engine
120 - 130 HP = Spend a fortune on Counterflow parts or ABA OBD1 Head and cam
130 - 150 HP = Forget counterflow and go with above head on an ABA block
150 - 180 HP = ABA Block + 16V head, cams, exhaust, chip, P&P
200 - 250 HP = ABA Block + 16V head + Turbo (12-14lbs)
250 to ??? HP = Above plus all the bells & whistles

i understand these are estimates but i made 201 whp on a 2.0t at 10 PSI with a t3/t4 50 trim. and it wasn't even that great of a tune. you haven;t factored much of turbo size into your equation. you don't need a 16v head to get fun power. i didn't dyno my car at 17 PSI but it was plenty fast for me. SalsaGTI made 260 something with an ABA. 8v's is good enough for simplicity and reliability. just my .02


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Flipdriver80)*

Good points, My intention was to give conservative, budget and reliability conscious estimates.
I am not sure of your numbers but 260 HP from an ABA 8V is not what I would consider mild tune or easy to achieve
260 HP would require approximately 130lbs/hour fuel and 1800lbs/hour air or 30lbs/minute @ 14lbs boost and assuming 100% volumetric efficiency you would need to be flowing about 500cfm.
I would say you would need 42lb/hour injectors, decent size t3/t4 hybrid, intercooler and some head work.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (97'BlueGT)*

i know whats up...








yes i know certian people can get crazy hp out of certain motors...but ON AVE. you can not get 350 out of a counter flow 8v...your lucky to break 200
yea 300 is almost easy on a cross flow turbo
300+ isn't rocket science for a 16v turbo 
400 isn't any big deal(with a bit of cash) for a 20v....
mandra is only pulling 192hp out of his na 20/20 itb....but thats CRAZY for a na car. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
mandra is only pulling 192hp out of his na 20/20 itb....but thats CRAZY for a na car. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


No its not, this is crazy! Mostly OEM parts and non ported head. Just showing you that VW head design is still behind the ball.








Specs:
Engine: GSR block, CTR pistons, gsr rods, oem bearings, water pump, oil pump, timing belt, stock b16a head, stock headgasket, BC valvesprings/retainers, BC4 camshafts, skunk2 cam gears, blox IM, edelbrock 65mm tb
Mods: Toda header, 2.25" exhaust, velocity stack intake, RC 440cc, stock fuel pump, neptune


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
mandra is only pulling 192hp out of his na 20/20 itb....but thats CRAZY for a na *VW*. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

sorry


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_No its not, this is crazy! Mostly OEM parts and non ported head. Just showing you that VW head design is still behind the ball.

Just so you know Mendra is making ~the same WHP @ 8000 rpm's as that motor you posted and all he has done is the basic NA modifications that any other company would do, i.e. Cams,ITB's,header & High CR pistons.

_Quote, originally posted by *Wolfgti build VS Honda-Tech Build* »_
Does Mendra's build have the following?
*Stock Head - YES*
CTR pistons - NO - JE 12:1 Pistons
Stock rods - No - Arrow Forged 
Stock head Gasket - Yes
Aftermarket Cams - Yes
Aftermarket Intake manifold + throttle body - NO,he has ITB's
Header - yes


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Wolfgti build VS Honda-Tech Build »
Does Mendra's build have the following?
Stock Head - YES
CTR pistons - NO - JE 12:1 Pistons
Stock rods - No - Arrow Forged
Stock head Gasket - Yes
Aftermarket Cams - Yes
Aftermarket Intake manifold + throttle body - NO,he has ITB's
Header - yes


Mendra also had his bottom end built with a lightweight crank, fully balanced also he has *ITB's* not a Type R replica intake manifold like the Honda has. Ever see dyno's from a Honda running 12:1 compression, built bottom ends and ITB's? We're talking 240+whp. Like I said, 
Honda engine design > VW engine design 
Discussion closed


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
We're talking 240+whp. Like I said, 
Honda engine design > VW engine design 
Discussion closed

At what tq, HP doesn't move cars ( heavy ones that WE drive ).
That dyno that someone posted earlier, 125 across the board, that's kinda weak don't ya think.


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Pigsdofly)*

I guess it is time for us to re-name this forum to HONDA vs VW?
Look I can site numerous examples of engines producing ridiculos horsepower. I have SEEN a 1275CC MG engine produce 250HP.
Given an unlimited supply of cash I could easily build an ABA 8V that makes 240HP. N/A
An example of the type of mod's needed is just look at a NASCAR motor. They routinely produce in excess of 900HP from 355CID. But a NASCAR motor costs over $50,000!!
I drive my car 25 miles each way to work and back every day. Any modifications I do have to work within that framework.
Lets talk about relistic power goals for daily drivers who have 2 kids and $2000 a month mortgages.


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## magics5rip (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Pigsdofly)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pigsdofly* »_
At what tq, HP doesn't move cars ( heavy ones that WE drive ).
That dyno that someone posted earlier, 125 across the board, that's kinda weak don't ya think.









thats over 200hp at 9000 rpms. IF that is a street car, I really don't understand why someone would put this effort in. 
If its a track car, im completely for it!


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Let's keep the discussion going, but please...no flaming or disrespectful tone here or posts will be deleted with points taken.
We can have a mature discussion here, we are in the FI forum. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (TBT-Syncro)*

my itb tq curse is flat from 2500 to 5500 then needs more air...but only dropped 10 ftlbs to 7500


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## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (G60Jetta1990)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60Jetta1990* »_1.8L 8valve off a 89 jetta 
Forged Rods, Crank and Pistons for a Corrado
bahn brenner head gasket running about 7.5:1
Techtonics 268 degree cam
port and polish head
G60 Supercharger RS2 outlet
15 psi 
with intercooler
2.5" custom exhaust
Digi 1 system with power perfect piggy back system
42lbs injectors
Neuspeed adjustable cam
Snowperformance with Intercooler Spray
Nitrous Oxide 25- 50 shot


I estimate 1.21 Jigawatts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
SS


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_Mendra also had his bottom end built with a lightweight crank, fully balanced also he has *ITB's* not a Type R replica intake manifold like the Honda has. 
He did not have to do anything to his bottom end by ARP rod bolts BUT he wanetd to.


D!rtyD!ck said:


> Ever see dyno's from a Honda running 12:1 compression, built bottom ends and ITB's? We're talking 240+whp. Like I said,






D!rtyD!ck said:


> Search for Nate Romero...you will get the answer to your question.
> I respect Honda's Engineering as much as the next guy but VW's are NOT that far behind.If i had to choose a motor my unbiased opinion coming from owning SEVERAL Toyota 4A-GE's would be a VW.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Search for Nate Romero...you will get the answer to your question.
I respect Honda's Engineering as much as the next guy but VW's are NOT that far behind.If i had to choose a motor my unbiased opinion coming from owning SEVERAL Toyota 4A-GE's would be a VW.
 http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif <<new turbo for you!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (the_q_jet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_q_jet* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif <<new turbo for you!

I allready have enough that are bigger than your head


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I allready have enough that are bigger than your head
















do you have any idea how big my head is!!







anyway...so i can have one?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (the_q_jet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_q_jet* »_







do you have any idea how big my head is!!







anyway...so i can have one?









Sure
send me what power you looking to make and we will go from there.Have paypal?Will sell.....


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Search for Nate Romero...you will get the answer to your question.
I respect Honda's Engineering as much as the next guy but VW's are NOT that far behind.If i had to choose a motor my unbiased opinion coming from owning SEVERAL Toyota 4A-GE's would be a VW.


LMFAO, not that far behind? Are you serious with this sh*t? Honda released its B series engine in the 80's and you're comparing it to a motor that was released in 97. Get with the program, VW is FAR behind Honda in engineering. 
K20A 
Car: Integra Type R
Engine: JDM Integra Type R (K20a)
Mods: Injen CAI, R crew race header, test pipe, 3" custom exhaust, Kpro








2006 GTI, Revo Stg 2, GHL 3" TB, EVOMS intake, Neuspeed Turbo Outlet pipe, Neuspeed Throttle body pipe. 4th gear pull.








Kinda sad that VW's need 15+psi to make the horsepower a N/A Honda makes. 
Again Honda engineering > VW an you cant win this argument because you cant find one example that makes the VW a superior engine.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (the_q_jet)*

check out this one on the rollers....
http://video.google.com/videop...59688


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## 1.9..16vTurbo (Jan 25, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*

you guys... 
Don't forget... it's the VR6 that sucks mouse balls. Ralley, you hurt my feelings... The G-Lader is not as bad as it's rep and other Tex peeps make it out to be. I had 230 whp and could have gone MUCH further seeing how G60Mikey has now put down 245whp on 9 psi and should break 250whp by the end of this week if all goes well.


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## 1.9..16vTurbo (Jan 25, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (1.9..16vTurbo)*

DirtyPenis, why don't you post graphs showing where the power STARTS and compare rpm to rpm... You'll see why VW's are still faster. also look at the torque curves. see when VW's tq starts and look at Honda for that same RPM. OHHHHHHHHH, hmmm... It's called torque


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*

ok time to chime in...... i've done a few honda builds in my day......have you guys seen what the all-motor honda guys bring to the table???most of them dont even run a honda block.....you guys a comparing apples to oranges like stated above.....no one has even come close in the VW scene because no one has 200-300k to dump into a engine.......and go build yourself a stock compression b18 and make it turn more then 200whp with bolt ons.....it wont happen .....
i always compare imports to domestics because most people who are into imports never had a bad a$$ domestic......it cost money to go fast.....ask a nascar late model guy what he pays for a engine....and those guys dont even see a real return on that investment.....the problem with most of you guys is you spend 2 much time on the internet typing instead of engineering new products....
ps. the Wiz has probabley built more engines then you guys have seen "you dont know what (crew) your messing with??this is the problem with the VW scene as a whole do you realize how immature that statement is????
so show me somone who's machined a VW block from stratch then talk untill then keep reading your grand turismo manual


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (1.9..16vTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.9..16vTurbo* »_DirtyPenis, why don't you post graphs showing where the power STARTS and compare rpm to rpm... You'll see why VW's are still faster. also look at the torque curves. see when VW's tq starts and look at Honda for that same RPM. OHHHHHHHHH, hmmm... It's called torque

lol.
how many VWs are running 9s NA ? lol. none.


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Corradokcid)*

Poo stabber, would you please leave this poor guys topic alone. I'm pretty sure he isn't going to be swapping a Honda lump into his car no matter how many dyno sheets you can pull off of Honda Tech.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Corradokcid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Corradokcid* »_so show me somone who's machined a VW block from stratch then talk untill then keep reading your grand turismo manual

there is one in a purple cabby actually, i tried to find the thread but havnt been able to casue the search sucks..
can i stop reading the GT manual yet?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (VWralley)*

true true!


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## 1.9..16vTurbo (Jan 25, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (TBT-Syncro)*

Syncro, now you are going extreme. I was reffering to his 200whp dyno graphs's and you come and pull drag motors into the equation... c'mon... apples to apples. 
But even then, look at whatever honda you are reffering too that run's 9's n/a and look at his hp and tq below 4.5k... not a very fun daily
But that's my opinion... which means nothing


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_Id run the G60 with an ABA block, JH head or large valve hydro head (P&P of course) Keep it 10:1 compression since youre running *water/alky injection*.

Yes as this is a cure all for all things......
Lets take a step back to WWII for more brilliant cutting edge technology


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_

LMFAO, not that far behind? Are you serious with this sh*t? Honda released its B series engine in the 80's and you're comparing it to a motor that was released in 97. Get with the program, VW is FAR behind Honda in engineering. 
K20A 
Car: Integra Type R
Engine: JDM Integra Type R (K20a)
Mods: Injen CAI, R crew race header, test pipe, 3" custom exhaust, Kpro








2006 GTI, Revo Stg 2, GHL 3" TB, EVOMS intake, Neuspeed Turbo Outlet pipe, Neuspeed Throttle body pipe. 4th gear pull.








Kinda sad that VW's need 15+psi to make the horsepower a N/A Honda makes. 
Again Honda engineering > VW an you cant win this argument because you cant find one example that makes the VW a superior engine.


you just put your foot in your mouth...
look at when the honda goes over 200HP and look at where the VW goes over 200HP and *STAYS THERE*
the GTi in that plot probably started at around 2200 RPM through about 7200 or so. thats over 220 HP and Torque for 5000 RPM's. the poor honda only made over 220 for 1000 RPM's.








horsepower is a function of torque... which is why the GTI feels like you got hit from behind by a linebacker... i've been in a new one making 242 HP and the constant torque feels amazing.
also... you mentioned VW engines sucking because they need lots of PSI to go fast...agian with the foot in the mouth thing. its a tiny turbo. throw a gt28 on there and you'll be singing to over 300 HP at the same PSI.
_Modified by Flipdriver80 at 5:18 PM 12-13-2007_


_Modified by Flipdriver80 at 5:21 PM 12-13-2007_


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Flipdriver80)*

ummm 1st problem with the dyno sheets there buddy...honda is rpm and the VW is MPH....ummm yea. unless the gti can pull a 11,000 rpm redline


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_ummm 1st problem with the dyno sheets there buddy...honda is rpm and the VW is MPH....ummm yea. unless the gti can pull a 11,000 rpm redline









i know i was just guessing based on a standard gear ratio.. the GTi has a short box so i was just estimating based on its redline and where they usually start pulling on a dyno run. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Fastbreakstar22 (Nov 4, 2005)

This thread is seriously heated.


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
Yes as this is a cure all for all things......
Lets take a step back to WWII for more brilliant cutting edge technology









By all means don't use something that has worked for over 50 years. I'll keep my W/M injection thank you very much.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_

LMFAO, not that far behind? Are you serious with this sh*t?


As I mentioned in my PM to you (after your last post), please keep it down. You are MORE THAN WELCOME to discuss "engineering differences" b/w Honda and VW but *NOT* at the expense of flaming other users or using profanity (which includes going around the censor). 
You are sending this thread in a bad direction (all by yourself); I will continue to delete your posts and report you to the admins if you cannot tone it down. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Thanks.


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (nater)*

NATER NATER NATER







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gryz070 (Feb 13, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Pigsdofly)*

normally, i read topics like these and i dont ever post, but i felt compelled to due to the nature of this particular VW vs Honda pissing match.
When trying to directly compare a VW engine and a Honda engine, you need to identify on what basis you are comparing them. So far, almost everyone who has posted on this topic and most people on car forums in general are only concerned about one thing: peak HP at the wheels, or at the crank, whichever one floats your boat. This is fine to do if you are only concerned about driving your car in a straight line, banging lots of shifts, and keeping your car right in the sweet spot in the powerband. For most, this scenario doesnt describe how you drive your daily or your weekend track car, unless you spend all your time at the strip, and even then you still shouldnt care about peak HP.
To me, peak HP doesnt mean a damn thing. I am concerned with the _average_ power a car makes in the usable RPM range. I am partial to an engine that has _high average_ power in the usable RPM range compared to a car with a high peak HP in a small RPM range. In other words, I am looking at the area under the power curve. If we were to simulate two cars accelerating in just one gear from idle up to redline, one car having an engine that produced high average power, and the other car having an engine that produced a higher peak power number, guess what, the car with the higher average power will hit redline first, thus giving a higher average acceleration. Horsepower directly correlates to the force at the tire/road interface. Obviously, higher horsepower will give a higher force at the tire, which in turn gives a high rate of acceleration. Torque is a force, and horsepower is a measure of energy produced per unit time. Thrust at the wheels is directly correlated to horsepower, if anybody would like to see the equations, i would be more than happy to post them.
So anyways, back to the high average power vs high peak power argument. I sketched something up in paint to illustrate what i am saying. Keep in mind this is an exaggeration, but you get the idea

lets say the red is the VW, and the green is the Honda. The honda has a much higher peak HP, but if you notice the VW has a much higher average power. you can see this by looking at the total area under the curve. The VW trumps the Honda in terms of area under the curve, even though the honda trumps the VW in terms of peak power. So the question i pose is do you want an engine that will put down a higher average force at the wheels over a wide operating range, or an engine that produces a higher peak force at the wheels, only for a very small part of your operating range? I dont know about you guys, but since I like being able to drive my car in different parts of the RPM range without shifting every 2 seconds, i will take the car with the high average power. For a drag racer, what is desirable may be different, because you might want the high power number, and keep shifting to keep it right at the high power number. The argument about how many times you shift in the 1/4 is another can of worms that i can open, but i dont want to go into that at this point.
The point of all the stuff i am saying is that the Honda and the VW are engines that were designed with different goals in mind, and produce power in different ways. In general, the Honda's cylinder head design(valvetrain, ports) and internals (rotating and reciprocating assembly) are set up to spin up to high RPM's and produce power up there. In general, the VW's cylinder head and internal assembly design is set up to provide a very driveable engine that produces power in a lot of places, over a wide range.
going ahead and making assumptions about the caliber of engineering that goes into a Honda engine vs a VW based purely on the ability of the engine to produce a high peak power number is ignorant. the engines were most likely designed with different goals in mind. Whens the last time you ever heard about German engineers being idiots?? Cmon, if you want to sing that tune, go choke on the fact that a stock E46 M3 produces MORE than 100 HP/L naturally apsirated. And by the way, im sure there are hondas out there that can claim the same thing, but i could care less, because i KNOW the BMW is more driveable (i.e. HIGH AVERAGE POWER)
so to me, who the hell cares if a 2L honda produces 30 more peak HP than a 2L VW? Go ahead, give props to Honda for making lots o HP, i will stick with cars that you can actually have fun driving.
_Modified by gryz070 at 4:56 PM 12-13-2007_

_Modified by gryz070 at 4:59 PM 12-13-2007_


_Modified by gryz070 at 4:59 PM 12-13-2007_


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## Fastbreakstar22 (Nov 4, 2005)

^^^ He laid that down well.
I agree with him.
Useable power > High Peak HP


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## lowlevelowl (Jul 25, 2004)

hahaha i'm sorry i had too


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## D!rtyD!ck (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (gryz070)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gryz070* »_ If we were to simulate two cars accelerating in just one gear from idle up to redline, one car having an engine that produced high average power, and the other car having an engine that produced a higher peak power number, guess what, the car with the higher average power will hit redline first, thus giving a higher average acceleration. Horsepower directly correlates to the force at the tire/road interface. Obviously, higher horsepower will give a higher force at the tire, which in turn gives a high rate of acceleration. Torque is a force, and horsepower is a measure of energy produced per unit time. Thrust at the wheels is directly correlated to horsepower, if anybody would like to see the equations, i would be more than happy to post them.


You post a dyno chart of HP. Forget that, take the dyno chart I posted of the B18 vs Mendra's 20v
HP doesnt pull/push the car as YOU stated its torque. Now what car is going to pull it faster, the car with the flat torque curve (ie Honda) or Mendra's engine that's pretty peaky. Im going to go with the Honda because like I stated before, we have the wonderful thing called gear ratios. So your example sucks. Please try again.

PS: Have you ever driven a 240whp n/a B series? Ive seen motors making 235whp/142wtq in a full interior DC2 smoke a R32 from the dig. So wheres all that usable power now? 
PPS: I have an engine that makes crazy peak HP (175 whp per liter), sh*t torque (71wtq per liter) and surprisingly enough, its stupid fast and has plenty of torque for the streets. Thanks to gear ratios http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 




_Modified by D!rtyD!ck at 9:30 AM 12-14-2007_


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (D!rtyD!ck)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D!rtyD!ck* »_
You post a dyno chart of HP. Forget that, take the dyno chart I posted of the B18 vs Mendra's 20v
HP doesnt pull/push the car as YOU stated its torque. Now what car is going to pull it faster, the car with the flat torque curve (ie Honda) or Mendra's engine that's pretty peaky. Im going to go with the Honda because like I stated before, we have the wonderful thing called gear ratios. So your example sucks. Please try again.

PS: Have you ever driven a 240whp n/a B series? Ive seen motors making 235whp/142wtq in a full interior DC2 smoke a R32 from the dig. So wheres all that usable power now? 
PPS: I have an engine that makes crazy peak HP (175 whp per liter), sh*t torque (71wtq per liter) and surprisingly enough, its stupid fast and has plenty of torque for the streets. Thanks to gear ratios http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Modified by D!rtyD!ck at 9:30 AM 12-14-2007_

R32's are heavy and slow stock....but damn nice.
and the AWD sucks up hp as well.
I'd rather drive my 8vT than any car with High peek hp and no TQ....
On the street a wide TQ curve is where it's at...and a light car helps as well


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
R32's are heavy and slow stock....but damn nice.
and the AWD sucks up hp as well. 
you forget...they're not AWD all the time...haldex my friend


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (the_q_jet)*

true..
but the extra's all eat a little of the over all HP


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## Stephen McTowlie (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Pigsdofly)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pigsdofly* »_
By all means don't use something that has worked for over 50 years. I'll keep my W/M injection thank you very much.

Perhaps size your charger correctly for your HP goal and use a properly designed inner-cooler..AIR to AIR ....or Water to Air...and call it a day.
water/meth injection is like a band aid for a busted spleen








Build it right....tune it correctly and you will not need Band-Aids like water to make it right


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## Pinepig (Jul 9, 2001)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Stephen McTowlie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stephen McTowlie* »_
Perhaps size your charger correctly for your HP goal and use a properly designed inner-cooler..AIR to AIR ....or Water to Air...and call it a day.
water/meth injection is like a band aid for a busted spleen








Build it right....tune it correctly and you will not need Band-Aids like water to make it right










I could run a bigger turbo at the expense of lag, with the w/m I get a wider power band than if I just used the bigger turbo. Not a bandaid, it has a function. It also allows more timing ( by dropping EGTs ) at the top to help with the crappy combustion chamber of the ( BMW ) M10 head, you could throw an intercooler the size of the moon at it and it won't drop the EGTs, only pulling back timing ( and the resultant less power ) or running $$$$ high octane fuel can help if your air intake temps are already in check.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Estimated Hp for my build (Stephen McTowlie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stephen McTowlie* »_
Perhaps size your charger correctly for your HP goal and use a properly designed inner-cooler..AIR to AIR ....or Water to Air...and call it a day.
*water/meth injection is like a band aid for a busted spleen *








Build it right....tune it correctly and you will not need Band-Aids like water to make it right









This statement is completely false... it's a proven way to add a first or second form of intercooling while increasing the octane while running less expensive fuel legally, and as a side effect of injecting alcohol into your intake stream, it also keeps the intake and combustion chambers free of carbon buildup which is another major cause of detonation and engine malfunction.
A G60 knock sensor spacer is a bandaid on a broken spleen. That concept is wrong.


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