# 8v power?



## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

im new to the whole 8v motor. what are some cheap ways to add power? any bolt on upgrades? or parts from other v-dubs to add a little bit? the knowledge would be appreciated.


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## stick90 (Feb 28, 2008)

garytightpants said:


> im new to the whole 8v motor. what are some cheap ways to add power? any bolt on upgrades? or parts from other v-dubs to add a little bit? the knowledge would be appreciated.


 define cheap. 

cam and exhaust is pretty simple but not really what I would consider cheap.


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## Sevenhornets (Mar 29, 2010)

Go to your nearest pick a part and get a pre-80 metering plate and fuel block. After 81 most VW's were outfitted with a small 78 MM plate to increase fuel mileage. If you have the 78 MM plate go find a 115 MM. More air = more power. Keep in mind the when swapping metering blocks the metering pins are NOT interchangable the pins are a lapped surface down to .0001 fit and are a matched set. You can pick one up for close to nothing and gain 5-15 HP and 30 min of your time. Next would be finding a large bore TB. Most Roccos and GTI's had them and once again search for pre 80 cars in the yard. again it should add about 3-5 hp. Next would be to find the "dual" downpipe exhaust manifold. Cheapest and best thing next to a header and more durable....


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## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

Sevenhornets said:


> Go to your nearest pick a part and get a pre-80 metering plate and fuel block. After 81 most VW's were outfitted with a small 78 MM plate to increase fuel mileage. If you have the 78 MM plate go find a 115 MM. More air = more power. Keep in mind the when swapping metering blocks the metering pins are NOT interchangable the pins are a lapped surface down to .0001 fit and are a matched set. You can pick one up for close to nothing and gain 5-15 HP and 30 min of your time. Next would be finding a large bore TB. Most Roccos and GTI's had them and once again search for pre 80 cars in the yard. again it should add about 3-5 hp. Next would be to find the "dual" downpipe exhaust manifold. Cheapest and best thing next to a header and more durable....


 thats what i was talking about, cuz there is a local junkyard that has quite a few vws. the only one that is a pre 80 is a cabriolet. i'm a college kid, so my moneys kinda tight at the moment.


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## Sevenhornets (Mar 29, 2010)

Well here's your opportunity to learn how to haggle with junkyard. Basically by the time you get to "strip" a car they have already made their money and will never turn down reasonable offers. When stripping a VW take every nut, bolt, washer, clip, ring, whatever.. You can never have enough stuff lying around in the 20 yr bin. Thats VW gold!! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

Get this book. Best 20 bucks you'll ever spend. 

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Cooled-...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1279767636&sr=1-2


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## superl8 (Dec 31, 2002)

^ that book is excellent to give you ideas. Plenty more details here - you've just got to look through it. 

http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/resoy3ni/cars.html


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

Sevenhornets said:


> Go to your nearest pick a part and get a pre-80 metering plate and fuel block. After 81 most VW's were outfitted with a small 78 MM plate to increase fuel mileage. If you have the 78 MM plate go find a 115 MM. More air = more power. Keep in mind the when swapping metering blocks the metering pins are NOT interchangable the pins are a lapped surface down to .0001 fit and are a matched set. You can pick one up for close to nothing and gain 5-15 HP and 30 min of your time. Next would be finding a large bore TB. Most Roccos and GTI's had them and once again search for pre 80 cars in the yard. again it should add about 3-5 hp. Next would be to find the "dual" downpipe exhaust manifold. Cheapest and best thing next to a header and more durable....


 Interesting. I'm assuming this will only be applicable for cis-l / cis basic? Or will the cis-e dpr and potentiometer be swappable onto the earlier units?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Sevenhornets said:


> Go to your nearest pick a part and get a pre-80 metering plate and fuel block. After 81 most VW's were outfitted with a small 78 MM plate to increase fuel mileage. If you have the 78 MM plate go find a 115 MM. More air = more power. Keep in mind the when swapping metering blocks the metering pins are NOT interchangable the pins are a lapped surface down to .0001 fit and are a matched set. You can pick one up for close to nothing and gain 5-15 HP and 30 min of your time. Next would be finding a large bore TB. Most Roccos and GTI's had them and once again search for pre 80 cars in the yard. again it should add about 3-5 hp. Next would be to find the "dual" downpipe exhaust manifold. Cheapest and best thing next to a header and more durable....


 This is almost all 100% wrong (garbage is that fits better). I have no idea where you came up with this information, really would like to hear what the sources were, but you have either miss-read much of it or did not understand much of it or just started making things up. If need be I will correct everything item for item that needs correcting, but would rather you anti-up with some sourcees or insight first.


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## Sevenhornets (Mar 29, 2010)

There is no garbage in the post. These are the exact items I have used many many times over the last 30 yrs and have never let me down. Starting back in the early 80's we essentially mixed, matched and modified until we found combo's that worked together long long before there was a VW aftermarket business and we had to use our brains and ingenuity to make more power. I'll give you that some of the new tech and parts are better but for someone who is just getting into VW's with little money. Start off with the easy things like finding large bore TB for little or nothing, bump the cam one tooth (free), and timing changes (free), mill the head to get more compression. You know the easy things that are cheap and still work today. Then when he has the cash he can play around with different ignition, fuel, and exhaust systems.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

OK, have it your way: 
~ "pre-80 metering plate and fuel block. After 81 most VW's were outfitted with a small 78 MM plate to increase fuel mileage. . . . find a 115 MM" There are only two different size air sensor plates used on VW CIS systems. 80mm and 60mm, no 115mm at all. The early cars up to 80' ised the 80mm then for the 80' - 83' 1.5 and 1.7 the 60mm was used. Then everything was returned to the 80mm plate. There are two versions of the 80mm air sensor plates, thin rim and thick rim. The thin rim is the better of the two but the difference is very small. 
~ " More air = more power" More air means a leaner mixture and when it gets lean enough it just will not run any more. Now to give you the benefit of the doubt, more air/fuel mixture the engine can burn efficiently then the more power it can make, but just plain old more air does not mean anything. 
~ "swapping metering blocks . . . You can pick one up for close to nothing and gain 5-15 HP" This is on par with more air. If it were that easy people whould have been doing it from the beginning and to this day, but it just is not so. There are some fuel distributors which will provide more fuel for a given lift or amount of air entering the engine, but you can't just throw in more fuel and expect to make more power and for sure not 15HP more. The unit which came with the engine is more than ready to provide enough fuel for some small to middle power modifications. You need to have the equipment to test and set the mixture correctly before playing with "adding more fuel" as it can lower your power if not mixed correctly. 
~ "a large bore TB. . . and once again search for pre 80 cars in the yard. . . it should add about 3-5 HP " 
Pre 80 cars had smaller throttle bodies. The larger one did not show up until 84' or 85'. Adding a larger throttle body is about the last thing one needs to do as the gains are very very small, not 3 - 5 HP. The more restrictive things which will help flow are the valves and the intake manifold. Once they have been made to flow more then a bigger throttle body might gain that 3 HP more but not the 5. On a stock or near stock you might see 1 HP at the very top engine speed, but who drives there very long if at all. 
~ "bump the cam one tooth" Do you know just how much of a timing change that is? You are suggesting to someone to move their cam timing over 8°, not good advice my friend. 

This is only a brief and in general response/break-down of what you have suggested someone do to make more power. I would be happy to discuss each area in detail if you want, but start another thread as it is not nice to hijack someone elses.


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## Sevenhornets (Mar 29, 2010)

You sound threatened that someone might know something you don't.. See you at the track...


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## Patter$on (Jun 29, 2008)

> Water Wheels : This is almost all 100% wrong (garbage is that fits better). I have no idea where you came up with this information, really would like to hear what the sources were, but you have either miss-read much of it or did not understand much of it or just started making things up. If need be I will correct everything item for item that needs correcting, but would rather you anti-up with some sourcees or insight first.


 You Sir have a serious case of the downs.


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## Patter$on (Jun 29, 2008)

garytightpants said:


> im new to the whole 8v motor. what are some cheap ways to add power? any bolt on upgrades? or parts from other v-dubs to add a little bit? the knowledge would be appreciated.


 Find a Fox intake manifold, and get a TB off of a A2 Golf/Jetta with CIS. Audi 5K DPR, Euro Fuel Distributor. All work well. Throw in a "G" grind cam and you'll have a tidy litte motor with some oomph that'll still behave well.:thumbup: GL


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## superl8 (Dec 31, 2002)

You need to take all this with a grain of salt. Plenty misinformation is available - you need to do the research. This is a link off the page I posted above. If you're serious you need to read it all. If not you can just cut your springs and bump your cam a tooth WTF???!!!! Who suggests that? http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/resoy3ni/vw/PowerUpgrades/A1_Power_Upgrades.html


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## bevboyy (Apr 20, 2007)

Or even check this out: 

http://www.scientificrabbit.com 

Read, read,read and ask questions before doing anything.....:beer:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

IM16Vlvn 
"You Sir have a serious case of the downs." 
Sorry, I really don't understand just what you mean? I do have a serious dislike for people who re-transmit false and incorrect information as it then just keeps living on and on for many years. That the four door GTi debate many years ago. Everyone kept saying there were no 4 door GTi models or automatic GTi's. It took many years to get rid of this "fact" and now people know that both exist and always have. I also have a dislike for people making things up and pawning them off as fact because "I have been doing it for XX years". Most times they never did it they just heard it in a bar or somewhere and have no idea of the real truth. In fact there are lots of things I dislike and lots of bad poop I see being dished out, but I try to take the time when and where I can to to fix things or at least ask for an explaination so a discussion can dig up the real facts. 

IM16Vlvn 
"Find a Fox intake manifold, and get a TB off of a A2 Golf/Jetta with CIS. Audi 5K DPR, Euro Fuel Distributor. All work well. Throw in a "G" grind cam and you'll have a tidy litte motor with some oomph that'll still behave well" 
This is somewhat in-line with the dislikes or issues I have with some of what happens in these forums. Not really faulting you but it is a common error in my opinion where asking questions first to know just what you are dealing with would have been time better spent. Does anyone at this point know just what car the original posted has? Does anyone know exactly what 8v motor, or injection or engine management system is being used? I have not seen where it was indicated, but the list of modifications and do this or that's buzz around like flys on S --- right? And to be honest, some of what you suggested as written will not fit/work together, but that's another story. 

bevboyy, superl8, Mtl-Marc 
"Read, read,read and ask questions" 
At this point, whith the information provided by the original poster, these people gave the best and most useful information I believe. Greg Ravens book has mistakes in it but is a good basic start. The SR web site is a little one sided but also has some good stuff. There are other good books for the car (whatever it is) and injection systems (whatever it is) and at least some of them should be purchased or read. It really does no good to start tinkering with your car/engine before you understand just why you are doing it and what the changes envolve. If that is the case then just spend the money on a faster car from the factory and call it a day. 

Sevenhornets 
"You sound threatened that someone might know something you don't.. See you at the track... " 
Threatened? What's to be threatened about? Know more then me? There are millions of people out there who I am sure know more then me, but that does not threaten me in any way. And the ones that I have questioned about something they said were able to respond with an explaination of why they said it in an intelligent manner. Your response was more or less what I expected and just indicates to me exactly what I had thought. Sorry to say that I live much to far from you to have a meeting at any track. That and I no longer race, reaction times are to slow now due to age and health issues. But I can still think and type, so the offer still stands to discuss the above issues if you want. But as I stated before, this thread has been hijacked from the original poster and should be returned in all fairness. 

So I ask the question that should have been asked from the beginning, what car and engine are we asking about? When that's answered maybe some helpful and correct suggestions will pop up.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> So I ask the question that should have been asked from the beginning, what car and engine are we asking about? When that's answered maybe some helpful and correct suggestions will pop up.


 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: 

Hope the original poster see's it... 

*I think regardless of wut car or engine, has he done all the necessary tune-ups and got the car running perfectly first????* This includes tuning the car to run to its best ability in stock form. 

Most ppl start ass backwards and dump money in performance parts in a car that doesnt even run right when its in its stock form and expect magic to happen with the new parts :thumbdown:..... 

Like mentioned above READ, READ ,READ....Once u understand and can tune wut u have then move on to purchasing the most effective aftermarket parts for ur car. This too will take more research as theirs plenty of stuff to waste ur money on.....


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## Roc'N'Green (Apr 1, 2010)

WaterWheels said:


> So I ask the question that should have been asked from the beginning, what car and engine are we asking about? When that's answered maybe some helpful and correct suggestions will pop up.


 Start with quote above :thumbup:

Throwing out parts to pick up doesn't help anyone if you don't know what car they have its already bad enough we are assuming the car has never been modified. Giving suggestions for reading material is absolutely fantastic and where everyone should begin their trials of modification.

Next, what the poster above me said.

When I got my first vdub 81 rocco at age 16, the first thing i wanted to do was make more power out of that sob. This is the worst mistake you can make.....let me show you why



















Now this didn't happen because I jammed a **** ton of power into the engine or anything like that. It's because I neglected the basics.

I followed a pretty basic and highly recommended (it seemed) course of modification. I did tires, suspension, exhaust, cis-basic fuel dizzy, audi 5k tb, ported intake manifold, g-grind cam, and a port and polished head. Now this was all done on my original 1.7l motor.......with over 180k miles on it. That money would have been better spent on checking to see if my bottom end was healthy. And if not, either ensuring that bottom end is healthy or getting myself a healthy bottom end.

Now i put about 20k miles on the car before that nice gaping hole happened, but still it is a very sad day when you blow a motor. (Mine happened on thanksgiving 15 miles from my house with a dead cell phone, no change, and every place near me closed because of the holiday. I walked home and had lots of thinking time.)

Here is my issue. First and foremost you need to find out what kind of condition your motor is in. Do a compression test, if you cannot do it, it really does not cost much to have a shop do it and it will let you know how much life your motor has.

Now we have the benefit of dealing with German motors which for the most part are pretty dam durable so if your compression is good, get it running how it should be get a Bentley manual to help you with this it will give you a helping hand. If the compression test results turn out bad no big deal. (We will assume this isn't the case, if it is let us know.) 

Tune up the ignition system, make sure your timing is set correctly (this can make a noticeable difference in performance and mileage), make sure your a/f ratio is set correctly (this can also make a noticeable difference in performance and mileage). Of course replace all wear-able items while you are doing this for reliability sake.

Once you have a close to stock, well maintained car, then the performance possibilities will open up!

Just remember my pictures when you say to yourself, "I know it leaks some oil and i could probably fix that oil leak with the money i have, BUT this cam is only 100 dollars! and it says i could gain 7hp!"

This is a heck of a thread. What is sad is the original poster most likely has no desire to return to this page. I really hope he does, there is some good info in here! Minus what I said. My info probably isn't the best, but wth if anything he can learn from my mistakes!


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## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

*my car*

i have an a2 jetta with a stock 1.8l 8v motor, minus the a/c (previous owner did it, not me). 
like some of you have already mentioned that i should do, i have made sure that the engine is running in tip top shape, new belts, spark plugs, air filter, oil change( all the basics are are covered in keeping running smoothly.) it's also got a new clutch(sachs oem), drive axles, knuckles, as well as the front control arms, rear beam and suspension from an mk3. so its all set for a while. 
i was just looking for some advice/ wisdom on how to some small gains in power through other vw parts or simple tuning since its sitting in the driveway with 2 flat tires. out of boredom, i've already realeased the tension on the little gear in the AFM by 3 clicks, indexed my spark plugs adn given it a nice hand washing. 
and dont worry, i am taking all of this info with a grain of salt.


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## Roc'N'Green (Apr 1, 2010)

What year is the car? Just so we have an idea what fuel management system you are using as well as the spark configuration, and engine code.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

OK, the year and location would help, but it is obvious you have a Digifant system and you can toss out all that CIS stuff posted above. Depending on the location, or where the car was built to be sold, it could be Digifant I or II. Most are Digifant II but this is important to know also. Not to doubt your ability to make sure the engine is tip-top, but how many miles are on it? So often people neglect the engine bearings and later post how their oil pressure is OK when cold but low when hot. Then the responses which will follow will be to use thicker oil when the bearings are the real issue. So before you invest any cash over $100 into the motor, I would have the oil pressure tested and/or replace the bearings. 

Here is my best advice for performance gains. "Make a plan and a budget!" Stick to the plan if you were true to yourself and what you expect from the car (it's use and how/where you drive), but expect the budget to ballon at least 10%. With the plan in hand, research parts and knowledge which will fit the plan. So often people mix parts which do not work together or fall into the "more/bigger is better" trap.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

garytightpants said:


> like some of you have already mentioned that i should do, i have made sure that the engine is running in tip top shape, new belts, spark plugs, air filter, oil change( all the basics are are covered in keeping running smoothly.) it's also got a new clutch(sachs oem), drive axles, knuckles, as well as the front control arms, rear beam and suspension from an mk3. so its all set for a while.


 I figured u were gona say something like this...Just cuz u did all the necessary tune-ups doesnt mean the car is running 100% perfect....There some guys on here that have track cars with complete stock motors that would put some of the street cars with mods to shame.. Its all about the TUNE and making sure ur motor is in 100% condition. Im going out on a limb here but maybe look into buying a wideband kit. Not going to give u additional HP but hill help get the most HP out of wut u got now and for any future mods....:thumbup:


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## bevboyy (Apr 20, 2007)

I will add my .02 on this. I agree with the respected members and their posts above. What should be done first is a decent diagnostic of the engine and transmission. Invest in a compression tester and timing light. A lot can be gleaned from a compression test. Making sure you invest in GOOD quality tools - I personally have felt the pain caused by using a crap tool and having it break on a Sunday night with all the stores closed and you have to get the car fixed by Monday morning..:banghead: Invest in a haynes/chilton manual. Once you have all what you need, learn how to get your engine to a good state of tune first. Walk before running here. You will be surprised by actually how peppy these small motors are. When you decide to move to the next step, do it one mod at a time, but make sure your brakes and chassis are up to snuff beforehand. What use is horsepower if you can't handle or stop?:beer:


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## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

its a 92 with digifant II and 152,000 miles in the u.s. 

thanks for all the good advice from everyone. i'm just looking to make small power gains, nothing outlandish, i just want to be able to keep up with my friends stock 240sx(just to wipe the smug look off his face because he hates vw's with a passion). 

and as for my budget, i have a $1600 check coming in the mail to do repairs on my golf cuz my dad rear ended a jeep with a trailer hitch, but their should be a decent chunk of change left over becase we are doing all the work ourselves with parts from a parts golf we have.


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## bevboyy (Apr 20, 2007)

Then I would suggest (now that we know what powerplant you are running..) after you have established a good tune of the engine, starting at the exhaust then. The stock exhaust manifold and "toilet bowl" downpipe are incredibly inefficient and restrictive. Just installing a dual outlet manifold and downpipe will make a very noticeable difference in the car's performance. Nice thing is that they are readily available in the junk yards (http://www.car-part.com) and they flow real well. A KN filter combined with a scirocco lower airbox (larger air inlet) would be next. Honestly, I would do those first and see how you like the increase in performance.. 

Otherwise, I would look at working on upgrading the stock suspension and brakes. Make sure you don't have any play in the ball joints and outer tie rod ends. Check the struts and make sure they are not showing any signs of leakage. Check your brake lines, replace any rubber lines that are cracked, and any metal lines that have large amounts of rust..:beer:


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## JoggerNot (Nov 6, 2009)

And I might be wrong, but I believe that the dual outlet flows better then a header ? I swear tectonics had the dyno chart to prove it...I can't figure out the new layout of their website to find it again. Anybody know if this is true ?


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## Boost_Retard (Oct 10, 2005)

i dunno about the sad day when the motor blows, personally i love blowing up motors! makes you feel like your driving them like you should  i have a wall full of blow up motor bits, makes for great tales and better motors!


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## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

*bike carbs*

so me and my father are going to put bike carbs on it, it official.


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## MDVDuber (Nov 20, 2002)

These cars are great fun, and adding power is a good bit of the fun. But.

1) Downpipe and cat back exhaust are going to be needed if you really plan to go the multi-carb route - you've got to open up the airflow.

2) The poster who suggested that you make sure the suspension and brakes are up to snuff hit the nail on the head. 100 extra horsepower doesn't mean a thing if you car handles like a mid-80's Buick!! in fact the suspension upgrade will help your car be faster since you can carry more speed through the corners.


Everyone on here had their favorite exhaust system, suspension upgrades, brake pads etc.. Do some serious research before you spend $$ on that sort of stuff. In particular try to drive cars that have the suspension you think you might like.

Just an example from personal experience. I used recommendations from here and other sources and put HR OE Sport springs with Bilstein Sports on my '92 Jetta - wow what a difference....but then I actually started to read the in depth suspension threads in that forum and realized that it might be better than my worn out stock stuff, but that maybe it wasn't the best bet for my money. Did some more informed research and changed to a Shine suspension set up (Springs first, then eventually the rear anti-sway) - WHOA!!! I'd been driving on CRAP up till then..... But - even with my glowing recommendation you might find that the Shine ride - or it's weird looking front high stance isn't what you really want......

Ok - Climbing off my soapbox now.....


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## RAINES69 (May 24, 2010)

if its so bad for him to retard or advance his cam gear a tooth why do they make adjustable cam gears? are those bad? i wanna know because i was thinking about buying one for my 268 cam i just installed but if its bad then im not gonna bother wasting my money


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## stick90 (Feb 28, 2008)

RAINES69 said:


> if its so bad for him to retard or advance his cam gear a tooth why do they make adjustable cam gears? are those bad? i wanna know because i was thinking about buying one for my 268 cam i just installed but if its bad then im not gonna bother wasting my money


One tooth is something like 8 degrees which is to much


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## bevboyy (Apr 20, 2007)

RAINES69 said:


> if its so bad for him to retard or advance his cam gear a tooth why do they make adjustable cam gears? are those bad? i wanna know because i was thinking about buying one for my 268 cam i just installed but if its bad then im not gonna bother wasting my money


When you install a cam, what a cam essentially does is alter your powerband. With an adjustable cam gear, you can further tune that powerband to come on earlier or later...:beer:


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