# Idf drop plates v. Autopilot v2 fail



## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

So I installed drop plates all went well besides rubbing my Evap leak detection pump?? 
Now my air system has like three tiers of pressure 50psi could be sky high or ride height so my presets are kind of useless I think it's the angle of the bag or something from moving it any ideas of what do to fix this already recall rated it once went through the psi range fine?


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## .Ant (Jun 7, 2011)

Huh. IDF plates dont move your bag. They reposition the axle stub. Your psi is going to change after doing the instal since the axle is somewhere else.


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

Ya That's why I'm confused but 50 psi isn't just 50 anymore it's not 0 to 100 anymore there is multiple points where it reads the same pressures so the presets are not doing **** it could be sky high or tucking tire and read 45 or it can go to the preset it's hit or miss I've recalibrated twice since install


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

Bump just recaled it once more rear is still saying its at 52 psi when it's 3 inches up from ride height and at ride height


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## martin13 (Apr 20, 2010)

welcome to pressure based levelling systems


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## Miguel Lopez Ma (Mar 12, 2007)

martin13 said:


> welcome to pressure based levelling systems


 that's not the problem here. The bag is working on an angle where she can not do it correctly.


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## 20vtVdubb (Feb 27, 2008)

have u ran another calibration with your system?


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## President Lincoln (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm just curious, what drop plates? I been thinking of getting a set myself.


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

20vtVdubb said:


> have u ran another calibration with your system?


 3 as I've stated


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

dOWa242 said:


> I'm just curious, what drop plates? I been thinking of getting a set myself.


 Idf..... Read title


And yes I was thinking bag angle it isn't b/c it's pressure based alone


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Could be a pressure transducer. Or a bad ground on a pressure transducer. Or a short between the power wire to the transducer and the signal wire could be creating the constant voltage reading of it.


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

MechEngg said:


> Could be a pressure transducer. Or a bad ground on a pressure transducer. Or a short between the power wire to the transducer and the signal wire could be creating the constant voltage reading of it.


 The system runs and is fine manually it just has different tiers of pressure would that affect that at all?


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Okay please explain this "tiers of pressure" 

If you are running it in manual mode do your pressures read correctly? 
Do you get any pressure fluctuations while your car is aired up with the parking brake applied? 
When you are driving down the road over bumps do you get major pressure fluctuations?


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## Miguel Lopez Ma (Mar 12, 2007)

bags that you use? , Firestones 7056?


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

The solution is to remove the drop plates. If this started after you installed them, and was never a problem before, it seems as though drop plates are incompatible with the V2 system. 

I suppose you could manually set your height and leave them in, but then all the money you spent on the V2 system was wasted and you essentially have a run of the mill analog system.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

^^ 

Okay lets think about this logically, does airride have anything to do with the drop plates? No 
Does installing the drop plates have anything to do with the airride? No 

They are two completely seperate systems 

So there must be something that got messed up in either the trunk or with the rear beam when he installed the plates.


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## [email protected] (Feb 10, 2012)

Like MechEng and someone else said. These plates should have nothing to do with your pressure issues. The big thing is these aren't like the old Mason Tech plates. Your rear beam stays in the same location so the actually bag angles should be the same. 

I would think you might need to run a little different pressure because of the added leverage from the drop plates. Like the need to increase pressure minimally to achieve the same height as before. Again just because of add leverage.


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## Brah (Mar 5, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I would think you might need to run a little different pressure because of the added leverage from the drop plates. Like the need to increase pressure minimally to achieve the same height as before. Again just because of add leverage.


 x2
I had to adjust my ride height psi after installing the drop plates. As your aware it pushed the hub/wheel back which as stated above changes the "pressure vs height" ratio slightly, so to say. 

Not that this is any solution/incite to your problem


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes I'm not brain dead I know Rey drop the car relocate the hub and shin for camber, but the system should run 0-100 psi and 50 should be a certain height but y system reads the same psi at completely diff heights so when I hit preset 1 and the car is way up it will only drop a little bit to the first point it reads 50 of I do it from being aired out it goes to ride height because from aired out that 50 is the first one it encounters


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

**** iPhones and their editing


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## Brah (Mar 5, 2007)

I understand what your saying now. 

What bags are you using? 
What rear struts? 

Have you physically looked at the bags themselves at the 2 different heights?

I would watch the bags from 0 to 50, then empty from "sky-high" to 50. See what's happening. I would also watch from "sky-high" to 0. Set your phone or a camera under the car if needed. 

Sound to me like the bags are hanging up. 

Maybe the bags are not "collapsing" enough on the way down, or after being completely aired out they aren't filling up/standing up to the same point? 

Idk if that made sense, but i know my air lift bags wrap over the lower perches when completely aired out, maybe yours are not collapsing correctly initially, or hanging up on something or itself until a particular point/psi. 

The other thing to keep in mind is that because of the rear beam, 1 bag can be at 0 and the other at 100 and both side will be way up. My point being that it may just be 1 of the 2 bags. So look at both sides.


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Blue Duck said:


> Yes I'm not brain dead I know Rey drop the car relocate the hub and shin for camber, but the system should run 0-100 psi and 50 should be a certain height but y system reads the same psi at completely diff heights so when I hit preset 1 and the car is way up it will only drop a little bit to the first point it reads 50 of I do it from being aired out it goes to ride height because from aired out that 50 is the first one it encounters


 Alrighty what it sounds like is that you are reaching your achieved 50psi pressure. You are just concerned that one time it will be at one height and then at another time it will be at another height. This happens because you are using a pressure based system as martin said above. If you wanted it to be at the same height then you should have bought a height based system like e-level. 

Reasons why the height may be different from time to time: 
- you might be standing still and raise it up, if so your tires and lower control arms might be binding and preventing you from going up to full height. To avoid this air up when you are moving. Same thing from fully aired up, air out when you are moving to avoid any binding due to the tires sucking in from the angles that your lower control arms are on. 
- different temperatures. This plays a huge factor when it comes to height systems. If it is 30 degrees cooler in the morning than mid day you can run into height differences of inches. Again another downfall of a pressure based system rather than a height based system 
- Different loads. If you put anybody else or anything else the height will be different. 

Hope this gives you an understanding of what is happening here


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## Brah (Mar 5, 2007)

^ that makes sense, but I think he's saying the occasions are more specific than that. 

Sounds to me like...

Airing Up from 0 to 50psi - his rear sits with 1 fist of wheel gap. 
Airing Down from 100 to 50 - his rear sits with 2 fists of wheel gap. 

Correct?


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## Dubstuning (Nov 1, 2007)

Not sure whats going on but i cant believe it has to do with the plates. We have been running them for 2 months daily driven with v2 and everything is just dandy. Yea pressure based isnt where its at for accuracy. We use the presets to get it up in the air, start driving than adjust manually to get it at the psi we want as the pressures seem to change a bit the moment we start rolling. V2's presets dont seem accurate enough to put it at exactly what i want. As stated before almost like a bit of bind from the bushings or something. Its more like glorified analog with everything built into a single controller. Atleast thats the way i look at it.


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2010)

Dubstuning said:


> Not sure whats going on but i cant believe it has to do with the plates. We have been running them for 2 months daily driven with v2 and everything is just dandy. Yea pressure based isnt where its at for accuracy. We use the presets to get it up in the air, start driving than adjust manually to get it at the psi we want as the pressures seem to change a bit the moment we start rolling. V2's presets dont seem accurate enough to put it at exactly what i want. As stated before almost like a bit of bind from the bushings or something. Its more like glorified analog with everything built into a single controller. Atleast thats the way i look at it.


BTW, have you tried using the micro adjust feature? If you don't like the preset 1 stop psi, just double tap the #1 button again and the computer tries to narrow the psi range closer to the target. Every time you hit it it gets a little closer if not exact in many cases. 

My e39 liked to be tapped twice and then she was really good. Beats the heck out of doing it manually and a lot faster.


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## toplessvw (Jul 31, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Alrighty what it sounds like is that you are reaching your achieved 50psi pressure. You are just concerned that one time it will be at one height and then at another time it will be at another height. This happens because you are using a pressure based system as martin said above. If you wanted it to be at the same height then you should have bought a height based system like e-level.
> 
> Reasons why the height may be different from time to time:
> - you might be standing still and raise it up, if so your tires and lower control arms might be binding and preventing you from going up to full height. To avoid this air up when you are moving. Same thing from fully aired up, air out when you are moving to avoid any binding due to the tires sucking in from the angles that your lower control arms are on.
> ...


pressure based systems are not that finacky and innaccurate , if you set you bags for 50 psi the bag is going to fill to 50 psi and as the air warms and the air in the bag expands the pressure will go up but the system will also dump air to maintain that 50 psi. Keeping your height fairly close. With the plates your pressure will have to be adjusted because the further back the weight is put from the fulcrum and the bag is not moved it will require more bag pressure to get the same height. His problem seems to be consistancy from 0 to 50 then from 100 down to 50 not giving the same height. I would think if he slowed down the dump he would have less issues.
Try t-ing in a liquid filled pressure gauge between the bag and the controller and see what the actual pressure is doing


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

toplessvw said:


> pressure based systems are not that finacky and innaccurate , if you set you bags for 50 psi the bag is going to fill to 50 psi and as the air warms and the air in the bag expands the pressure will go up but the system will also dump air to maintain that 50 psi. Keeping your height fairly close. With the plates your pressure will have to be adjusted because the further back the weight is put from the fulcrum and the bag is not moved it will require more bag pressure to get the same height. His problem seems to be consistancy from 0 to 50 then from 100 down to 50 not giving the same height. I would think if he slowed down the dump he would have less issues.
> Try t-ing in a liquid filled pressure gauge between the bag and the controller and see what the actual pressure is doing


Kris i do actually somewhat understand the concept of very very basic engineering 

With the installation of the drop plates he recalibrated everything and 50psi gives him his new preferred ride height (ish) so there is no need to go into any details about what his previous ride height is compared to what it is now, just the current scenario.

He does not have a problem hitting the 50psi mark. If it says that it has achieved the set pressure then it has achieved it. His problem comes directly from (in my experience) built up tension in the bushings/tires. That is why i suggest to never air up while you are at a stand still. Even with e-level you can air up to a certain height setting while not going anywhere. Yes it achieves the correct height. But when you start driving it usually airs out a little bit from at least one of the corners. 


Back to V2
What is happening is that the lower control arms are at a significant angle when you are aired down and your tires are a certain distance apart. When you air up the angle changes and your tires actually change their distance apart. If your tires/car have not moved then potential energy is stored in the bushings as well as the regular amount in the bags. The binding energy actually works against the air energy that you just put into the bag and as a result you get less lift out of your bag even at the same psi. When you start to drive then the stored energy in the bushings/tires created from the difference is distance between the wheels is dissipated and your ride height should be more accurate.

That is my theory if your V2 pressure transducers and ecu are in perfect working shape and installed correctly.


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## toplessvw (Jul 31, 2003)

MechEngg said:


> Kris i do actually somewhat understand the concept of very very basic engineering
> 
> With the installation of the drop plates he recalibrated everything and 50psi gives him his new preferred ride height (ish) so there is no need to go into any details about what his previous ride height is compared to what it is now, just the current scenario.
> 
> ...


was not challenging your engineering knowledge just qouted you because of the pressure based comment. And all I was saying is that the pressure based system will do what it is designed for and that is to hit a certain pressure. His issue was that he is not getting the same ride height from when he airs up to 50 as he is when he airs down to 50 from 100. You hit the nail on the head explaining the preload of the suspention when airing up and down effecting the pressure. I had the same issues with my v1 when adjusting when not rolling, i found it helped to regulate the dump. It made switching between settings a little more accurate. I would be intrested to see what kind of pressures e-level guys see when changing heights to see how much the pressure would differ at ride height from day to day. For example one day you ride at 50 psi to reach ride height, would the next day be close to that number?


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

Why didn't this happen before the plates ever? it used to be 0-100 and that's it one of each psi not like 3 is it the preload from the added camber making these changes? I am going to make a video of it to post on here when I get daylight hopefully tomorrow I can't find any instruction on the calibration adjustment stuff I've heard about and I will check to make sure the rear tapered bags are falling correctly I'm on all airlift for reference


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Why can't it just be pure coincidence? I can't count how many times I've fixed or changed something on one of my VWs and then noticed another issue immediately after the fix. 

I get that you're frustrated and trying to find answers, but unless you did something funky during the install, those plates are not the cause of your issues. It seems like you are trying to go out of your way to blame the plates.


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## Miguel Lopez Ma (Mar 12, 2007)

I have seen pictures IDF plates, is normal for the pressure of the bag and the height of the car are different that before. IDF plates increase the leverage that the bag has to overcome. IDF plates makes its longest axis 23 mm


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Miguel Lopez Ma said:


> I have seen pictures IDF plates, is normal for the pressure of the bag and the height of the car are different that before. IDF plates increase the leverage that the bag has to overcome. IDF plates makes its longest axis 23 mm


Yes i think we all understand this. But he recalibrated the system once the plates were on so this plays zero effect on him comparing his ride height from 0-50 psi and 100-50 psi


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## Dubstuning (Nov 1, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> BTW, have you tried using the micro adjust feature? If you don't like the preset 1 stop psi, just double tap the #1 button again and the computer tries to narrow the psi range closer to the target. Every time you hit it it gets a little closer if not exact in many cases.
> 
> My e39 liked to be tapped twice and then she was really good. Beats the heck out of doing it manually and a lot faster.


I have used the micro adjust and still felt it didnt get the psi exactly where i wanted it. Not the end of the world. Its a crap ton better than the v1 we installed in a buddies mk5. Ill play around with it some more and see if i like the micro adjust. Right now we are battling a tank leak that i havent been able to find via soapy water spray bottle.


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## the fuzzy one (Oct 29, 2005)

Did you put the plates on upside down


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

the fuzzy one said:


> Did you put the plates on upside down


How would that even be possible they add camber to make it -4 so that's obviously not the issue. And the holes are beveled for the bolts on the surface that faces outward a very very smart ex VW mechanic did them same installer that helped with my v2 setup


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> BTW, have you tried using the micro adjust feature? If you don't like the preset 1 stop psi, just double tap the #1 button again and the computer tries to narrow the psi range closer to the target. Every time you hit it it gets a little closer if not exact in many cases.
> 
> My e39 liked to be tapped twice and then she was really good. Beats the heck out of doing it manually and a lot faster.


Yes but it's not that it's close it's like 4 inches higher lol it reaches the psi but not at the right height I need to watch the bag I bet it's a folding issue


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

I've got an idea. Why don't you take the drop plates out, and see if the problem still persists. Personally, that's what i would do. 

Instead of all the hypothetical scenario's you'd have some concrete evidence one way or the other.


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

reynolds9000 said:


> I've got an idea. Why don't you take the drop plates out, and see if the problem still persists. Personally, that's what i would do.
> 
> Instead of all the hypothetical scenario's you'd have some concrete evidence one way or the other.


Risk ruining my hubs for a second Time no thanks I would rather not replace those everything runs and operates the presets are just not that close


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Blue Duck said:


> Risk ruining my hubs for a second Time no thanks I would rather not replace those everything runs and operates the presets are just not that close


Ummm grab an offset wrench and you dont have to risk anything


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

Does pulling them off not stress the bearings every time? When he took then off he told me they didn't look too great so thankfully we didn't have to shim for toe a guy here is low enough static he had to shim half a degree for toe


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Not sure what you are talking about. Use one of these wrenches and you will NOT have to take the hub off of the bearing or the bearing off of the stub axle, it will come all together as 1 piece. So simply remove your brakes, rotor, caliper and then use this wrench and take off the whole hub. 


http://www.eurosportacc.com/camber_caster_adjustment_kits_bolts_plates.htm


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

we didnt have a thin enough wrench. do you know for a fact that one works??


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Blue Duck said:


> we didnt have a thin enough wrench. do you know for a fact that one works??


Sorry, I honestly tried to help you out as much as I could nicely. But when you consistently bring forth such stupidity time after time after time you start to gain zero credibility in my eyes and I have to call you out on it. So here is my response to your above question:

Why the **** do you think I directly you towards a spanner which has these specific offsets which is ****ing designed SPECIFICALLY for taking rear stub axles off of the rear swing arm of a mk4 vw. You are what I have determined to be an extremely incomitent nincompoop, hence this is the last I am helping you out until you pull your head out of your ass and actually start to think for once. 

/rant


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

MechEngg said:


> Sorry, I honestly tried to help you out as much as I could nicely. But when you consistently bring forth such stupidity time after time after time you start to gain zero credibility in my eyes and I have to call you out on it. So here is my response to your above question:
> 
> Why the **** do you think I directly you towards a spanner which has these specific offsets which is ****ing designed SPECIFICALLY for taking rear stub axles off of the rear swing arm of a mk4 vw. You are what I have determined to be an extremely incomitent nincompoop, hence this is the last I am helping you out until you pull your head out of your ass and actually start to think for once.
> 
> /rant


you seem like a genius yourself I'm on tapatalk always at work didn't even open the link I just did and I can see its for a mkiv now! I searched threads and people kept saying that it was just any spc wrench which clearly isn't true because we tried two, and as I've said I don't do the work on my car I have a friend that does it so I have never taken a ****ing rear assembly apart on this car specifically sorry for not being totally omniscient I'll try harder next time master /rebutle

All pissing matches aside this still will not fix the issue it will either be a bag folding issue from the movement in the caster direction with such a height change or a loaded suspension issue

I just started to notice my tank goes down a few psi at night along with bags only like 1-3 psi but it's always on one side so I'm going to dump my smc and check to make sure everything is in the valve block before I try to get a day off to really get up into the suspension


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

Plenty of Cars run the idf plates and seem to run smoothly so it's not the plates


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## 01Jetta20VT (Jul 4, 2007)

MechEngg said:


> Sorry, I honestly tried to help you out as much as I could nicely. But when you consistently bring forth such stupidity time after time after time you start to gain zero credibility in my eyes and I have to call you out on it. So here is my response to your above question:
> 
> Why the **** do you think I directly you towards a spanner which has these specific offsets which is ****ing designed SPECIFICALLY for taking rear stub axles off of the rear swing arm of a mk4 vw. You are what I have determined to be an extremely incomitent nincompoop, hence this is the last I am helping you out until you pull your head out of your ass and actually start to think for once.
> 
> /rant


The nuts on the drop plates are a different size than the factory bolts, the wrench will not work. No reason to get fired up, Neither of you were clear enough with each other...


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

01Jetta20VT said:


> The nuts on the drop plates are a different size than the factory bolts, the wrench will not work. No reason to get fired up, Neither of you were clear enough with each other...


We are referring to the bolts under the bearings not the drop plates


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Blue Duck said:


> Plenty of Cars run the idf plates and seem to run smoothly so it's not the plates


Oh hey, welcome to the party :facepalm:


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## Blue Duck (Apr 4, 2011)

son of planrforrobert said:


> Oh hey, welcome to the party :facepalm:


I'm the op I was simply stating that because people keep blaming the plates so welcome to the party


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