# Project Air Charge Cooling " a different approach "



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

First thread as a member, yay! 

I have been wanting to work on my IAT charge cooling for a while now. There are many ways to do it, all with different results (no, the usual "get a FMIC" won't cut for me). My goal, as usual, is to get the best possible setup for my application. No cutting corners, no compromise, just straight up business. I went back and forth with what design would work best and finally decided on something I think would complement the rest of the setup.

Before I dive into it, just to bring those not familiar with my car up to speed, I have an 01 225Q roadster. Stock turbo, manifolds and internals with the exception of drop-in IEs. Full 3" *straight* turbo back and Velocity stacked intake (downpipe and intake courtesy of my sponsor and kick ass company 42 Draft Designs). I run 33 psi boost tapering to about 25 psi on E85 ethanol and water injection on 630cc injectors. Tuning tweaks are done with Unisetting over a generic GIAC flash.

The goal for this project is to bring IAT down as much as possible while removing as much restrictions and pressure drop from the system.

*Part 1) Intake manifold*

To get to the level of water injection I needed, the basic single or dual nozzle wouldn't be enough. I already had a single directly ported nozzle (aiming at supplying the problematic first cylinder runner that usually starve for juice). I decided to go full direct port water injection. As the name suggests, each cylinder will get equal amount/distribution of water through a nozzle plumbed and dedicated to each runner.

*Ports aiming at each runner ( didn't want to port the runner to avoid spraying at a wall )*
























*Nozzles plumbed*












*I also decided while I'm at it to delete the annoying vacuum ports under the manifold and side ported it*












*Final product*












*Part 2) Heat Exchange*

I ran dual SMIC for a while, then experimented with great results deletion of one of the SMIC (gained 3 psi from boost onset to redline where a 3 psi gain is awesome on a chocking small frame turbo). Please don't attempt this if you have a 225, I did it because I have an elaborate water injection system to back it up. 

Now it's finally time for air-to-water intercooling! I thought long and hard about what core to use and what design. The barrel types are nice for fitment but trails in terms of performance over the square tanks. I also didn't want a core that doesn't have the inlet/outlet facing each other (straight through is the name of the game whenever pressure drop is important). I decided to go with a 550 cfm rectangular unit rated at 0.1 psi pressure drop. I feel that it would be ideal for the space available in the TT's engine bay without major surgery. The short route plumbing is also pretty sweet and with water injection to back this up, I feel that it would be an ideal setup for lowering IAT close to or even sub-ambient, without hurting pressure from turbo to manifold. The rest of the setup would consist of a side mounted radiator and a trunk mounted water/ice box. The TT 3.2 auxiliary radiator is the choice for now and maybe something aftermarket later if it is struggling to keep the water cool (I will have decent volume). I haven't decided on what pump to run and is open for suggestions. Now some pictures!





*Core *












*Lower support bracket fabricated and core mounted*













*Pipe mock up *














*Part 3) Pre-turbo injection*

The process of injecting before the turbo has its specific advantages when done properly. On a turbo that is running past its efficiency range, like my poor K04, a wet compression will reduce adiabatic loss and bring the compression closer to an isothermal compression. What that does, without turning this into a *thermodynamics* class, is shift the compressor map to the right and giving you the effect of a bigger compressor by a certain percentage.

We have been going through design ideas in the 1.8t technical forums since we are dealing with an extremely small turbo inlet that leaves limited room for mounting nozzles without creating substantial airflow restrictions. I want to spray as close as possible to the compressor blade but with 2 miniature jets that will guarantee instant atomization and keep volume high. I will be fabricating a nozzle mount next week and continue to update the thread. :beer:


A few ideas below but I want to reduce flow restriction over these designs to a minimum. 
Please feel free to discuss, critique and give inputs as long as they are intelligent ones (this forums in desperate need for intelligent and technical discussions )


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## Tempes_TT (Oct 24, 2010)

Subscribed.


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

*The designer-The practical*



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> First thread as a member, yay!
> 
> 
> The goal for this project is to bring IAT down as much as possible while removing as much restrictions and pressure drop from the system.
> ...


Salute 

I"ll share my thoughts with u dear TT'er and start by saying : thank you for sharing this amazing experience of yours , documenting your progress which much approval and admiration from all who follows and keep sub'ing ur info'rich threads . 

Now enough drama and lets focus on that goal of yours which i share too (living in sever hot dusty climate) 

1- Intake manifold : 

Amazing idea :thumbup: four "inj-to-runner" method is direct approach,my question: 

What's ur average MAP-MAF-AFR/water-in-air saturation? in a sense of with the amount of Pre-watered-pressurized-air entering the chamber of the manifold with 4 tiny inj's misting !?  

*Airflow in relation with the direction of four water inj.'s with air entering the runners drawing! 
*idea :Venturi-runners


2- Heat exhange :

I'm putting together AWIC system and considering the exact same idea for cylinder-like cooler replacing our oem intercoolerpipe support arm keeping the OEM+ look & proving some room for the engine to breath.

my question is this : if we could provide the proper info' on where to place each water inj. with its proper jet size in relation to the system demands would allow us to ditch the A2A/A2W IC ? 
save us the weight of intercooler housing to a water-tank for water inj. system !

Pre/Post turbo water injection cooling system is capability to pull this off ? 

* i know this has been discussed alot but clear pro's2con's pointers will sum it up.

*42 Draft Designs*:heart:

*UB the the first to cross the line* opcorn:

hope u gave those pictures a second go


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Lookin good brotha:thumbup:


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## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> We have been going through design ideas in the 1.8t technical forums


The Vortex 1.8T technical forums? Cannot find - am probably being dumb with my searches - who started the thread/threads in question? I would love to hear peoples ideas on this.

At the risk of throwing something out there that has already been covered in the other thread(s), it worries me to have the nozzle so close to, and pointed at, the turbo inlet. It is definitely not good to have any droplets strike a spinning turbo. If anything goes wrong and you do not have complete evaporation before entry, it's trouble. I know at our plants at work that have MVR evaporators, we go to great lengths to prevent any mist from reaching the fans. The technology unfortunately doesn't apply at all to this application.

Droplets striking the blades of the fan will cause premature wear, and do it surprisingly quickly. This is never uniform, so the fan becomes unbalanced and then the vibration kills it. I wonder if swiveling the nozzle orientation 180 degrees, to discharge into the oncoming air from the same location, would give you some extra safety margin.

Again, please provide a link to the discussion thread(s) on the 1.8T technical forum!

EDIT: Found it.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

First, have you considered rotating the throttle body so that the throttle flap faces the back of the plenum (opposite the runners)? This would help combat the starving of cyl #4. Second, that hump in the middle of the intake mani plenum is nasty, I don't remember that being that bad on the passenger side throttle manifold. Are you still interested in the SEM manifold?  Also, posted in that 3.2 aux rad thread, but should have gone here, I thought you were going with no heat exchanger? Lastly, you said adiabatic, isothermal, and chemistry. Those are thermodynamics terms.  Go Marcusmaximillian Go!


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## zak2006 (May 5, 2011)

i think TTWSM brings up a good point. this is something the Miss Geico Turbine Extreme boat has to deal with. Obviously there are some differences between the k04 and the 2-T55 turbines, but went water reaches the blades it destroys them in no time flat. Obviously it may not be immediate failure or close to like the boat but I would agree that over time you might begin to notice some symptoms.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

how much water can you pump in there?
4 nozzles in the intake manifold and another in the turbo intake?

i would never inject into the turbo intake.
you will really shorten the turbo life.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Agreed, straight meth into the turbo inlet would be better for turbo life.


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## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

With injector streams perpendicular the main cross-flow, won't the spray pattern be distorted by the velocity of the cross-flow? IE, #4 injector pattern may well be hitting the wall between runner #4 and #3, or even being diverted into #3 almost entirely.

I see #4 nozzle appears to point a little upstream of the #4 runner, so maybe you have thought of this already. Would seem to be a hard thing to get right without visualizing it on a flow bench, and even then it would be right for only a range of flow rates.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Like this!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ModsTTand said:


> Salute
> 
> 1- Intake manifold :
> 
> ...


Saturation, I'm honestly not sure! In the manifold, I'm injecting with 4 custom 30cc/min that's 0.5 gal/Hr per nozzle for a total of 120cc/min or 2 gal/Hr which is nothing. When you consider that my fuel injectors are 630cc/ min (386cc/min is stock) and that people use 5 gal/hour single nozzle in the same displacement engine, you realize that it can't be bad (relative).

As far as the ventury idea, it's would theoretically work great but very hard to implement on the factory manifold due to the odd runner shape.




ModsTTand said:


> 2- Heat exhange :
> 
> I'm putting together AWIC system and considering the exact same idea for cylinder-like cooler replacing our oem intercoolerpipe support arm keeping the OEM+ look & proving some room for the engine to breath.
> 
> ...


I can provide recommendations to where to place nozzles and volume required to reach specific gains. However, relying on water injection only would bring many problems that would make it impractical on a car that sees any kind of street duty.

1) You would need to carry a lot of fluid to supply the engine in extended use.

2) you would run poorly when not injecting (low load, part throttle, and shifting would see extremely high IAT).

3) Even with it's efficiency reduced by pre-turbo injection, an intercooler still accounts for a big percentage of overall charge cooling. You would have to spray a lot of volume to make up for it and that's when you run into air saturation. 

In conclusion, IMO a percentage of the charge cooling would need to come intercooling of some sort to make it practical and efficient ( I'd say 20-30% ). :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Great to see all the inputs and feedback. I haven't seen a good discussion on this board with all of you "old timers" involved in a long time :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:!


Pre-turbo injection seems to be the subject of debate and prove to be somewhat controversial. I would lay my plan and attack some of the concerns. 

First of all pre-turbo injection has been done successfully many times before, it also has failed in many attempts because of the following:

1) improper jet selection for the pump pressure. Not having near instant atomization is a sure way of creating long term blade erosion.

2) not enough pump pressure 

3) improper nozzle position ( especially with the constraints of an enclosed intake track ).

*My plan*

-High pressure, I am starting with 250 psi just to test and plan to upgrade shortly to an 800 psi pump.

-Custom made fine nozzle without the extra wide cone spray. I specifically wanted something small ( smaller than the typical 1 gal/Hr nozzle ) but that does not spray too wide. 

-Spray 1-3" away from the blade to avoid fluid pooling on the TIP walls and being vacuumed down by the turbo.

*My custom made 35cc nozzles with narrow cone spray that I had to wait 7 weeks for*













*What to avoid*












*A couple ways to do it right ( with the right pressure and nozzle sizes ) besides what Adam posted*


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

*This awesome video shows what's going on with pre- turbo injection and why injecting right at the turbo's mouths important*


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F51xymg33-w


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

zak2006 said:


> i think TTWSM brings up a good point. this is something the Miss Geico Turbine Extreme boat has to deal with. Obviously there are some differences between the k04 and the 2-T55 turbines, but went water reaches the blades it destroys them in no time flat. Obviously it may not be immediate failure or close to like the boat but I would agree that over time you might begin to notice some symptoms.


I understand the concern but there are steps that can be taken to minimize this to the point of becoming negligible. I have had direct correspondence with someone that did pre-turbo injection with a setup that was not even as methodical as what I'm attempting. In the long run (3 years) he did see minimal signs of erosion but after a compressor side rebuilt he interestingly did not measure any horsepower improvement on the dyno. In other words, minimal blade erosion does not have as much bearing on performance as commonly assumed.


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## zak2006 (May 5, 2011)

chrome isn't liking mobile link, have title I can search? 

i guess i stand corrected, didn't think about it on this level. Never heard of it before hence my reference to the Miss Geico boat but that is just salt water hitting blades not atomized. a quick search brought up atomization for humidifiers and those were talking about 1000-1200psi. will 800psi do it? (i havent the slightest clue)


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Looks like I need to bring you those injectors back!

You gonna be around this weekend?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> First, have you considered rotating the throttle body so that the throttle flap faces the back of the plenum (opposite the runners)? This would help combat the starving of cyl #4. Second, that hump in the middle of the intake mani plenum is nasty, I don't remember that being that bad on the passenger side throttle manifold. Are you still interested in the SEM manifold?  Also, posted in that 3.2 aux rad thread, but should have gone here, I thought you were going with no heat exchanger? Lastly, you said adiabatic, isothermal, and chemistry. Those are thermodynamics terms.  Go Marcusmaximillian Go!


I have tested with all 4 TB positions with no real effect logged back to back. I can always switch it back! Yes the manifold hump is nasty (not as nasty as the restricted tapered entrance of the passenger facing one ). I'm still interested in the SEM but want to iron out the setup before jumping (real reason is using my own money without the accountant/wife lecturing me to death)

Sorry for the typo, fixed for you :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Charlie_M said:


> With injector streams perpendicular the main cross-flow, won't the spray pattern be distorted by the velocity of the cross-flow? IE, #4 injector pattern may well be hitting the wall between runner #4 and #3, or even being diverted into #3 almost entirely.
> 
> I see #4 nozzle appears to point a little upstream of the #4 runner, so maybe you have thought of this already. Would seem to be a hard thing to get right without visualizing it on a flow bench, and even then it would be right for only a range of flow rates.


Good eyes Charlie! 

Actually you are right (mainly because we have force induction) the vacuum effect from the cylinder into the runner is way less than the pressure coming from the turbo whenever there is significant throttle angle. What happens is water filled air charge ( say injected at the TB spacer that is now just riding along ) has a hard time making the turn and wants to keep going straight towards the closed end of the plenum. Normally what happens without direct porting is that the first cylinder starve for water/alcohol and each cyl after that gets more juice. With the nozzles placed where I have them, they are still under enough pressure to not get distorted before entering the runners ( it usually takes 4-5 inches to start seeing distortion when injecting with pressure ). 

You are right also by saying that modeling flow would be ideal but it would need to be the same water filled medium to have an accurate simulation of what's going on. From experience playing with this before, pre-TB water-filled charge always indicated that cyl #1 was starving because it would constantly have the highest knock count and timing correction. After direct porting only for the problematic cylinder in a similar fashion that I have now for all four (same location just one nozzle dedicated to the first cyl), the once problematic cylinder became the cylinder with the highest knock threshold. This past experiment is what lead me to full direct porting :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

zak2006 said:


> chrome isn't liking mobile link, have title I can search?
> 
> i guess i stand corrected, didn't think about it on this level. Never heard of it before hence my reference to the Miss Geico boat but that is just salt water hitting blades not atomized. a quick search brought up atomization for humidifiers and those were talking about 1000-1200psi. will 800psi do it? (i havent the slightest clue)


I know that 250 psi unrestricted would definitely do it. People have been injecting pre-turbo at only boost pressure. The reason for going to 800 psi is because I like to overthink and overbuild stuff for safety. Another thing to keep in mind is that at 1000+ psi, you have to start rethinking the system as the conventional push fitting on synflex lines won't cut it anymore with their bust limits.

I will turn my computer on shortly to link the video to you (with iPads and smart phones I rarely find the use for these thing anymore :laugh


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

speed51133! said:


> how much water can you pump in there?
> 4 nozzles in the intake manifold and another in the turbo intake?
> 
> i would never inject into the turbo intake.
> you will really shorten the turbo life.


Remember there are different size nozzles :laugh:

You could keep the same overall target volume by using as many small nozzles as you want with much better results in terms of distribution and atomization (with all else equal).

You say that you'd never inject pre-turbo because it would significantly reduce turbo life. To me it's sounds like the same box thinking that told me not too long ago that "boosting past 30 psi won't make more power and will kill the stock turbo in a hurry". Close to 3 years later, 320+ whp/400+ wtq and the status quo is still wrong. I'll take my chances in a methodical fashion and if the turbo can only last a racing season before needing a rebuild, it's all worth it to me opcorn:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I'll be watching this one. Lots of very interesting discussion:thumbup:


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## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What happens is water filled air charge ( say injected at the TB spacer that is now just riding along ) has a hard time making the turn and wants to keep going straight towards the closed end of the plenum.


Ah, OK. When you wrote "problematic first cylinder runner", I read it as a problem in cylinder #1, and you meant it as a problem with "first cylinder encountered by the flow". Thanks for the explanation.

Have you thought of a piezoelectric atomizing nozzle for your pre-turbo injector? You could do away with the high pressure pump. I think piezo is not the first choice for atomizing, compared to the simplicity of using compressed air to do the atomizing, but in your case you don't have compressed air available.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Charlie_M said:


> but in your case you don't have compressed air available.


The 30 psi that turbo is making won't do the job?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Agreed, straight meth into the turbo inlet would be better for turbo life.


Better for blade life and lowering air temperature before it's even compressed mainly due to its lower flash point. But remember, I'm looking for that wet compression to extend compression efficiency and my compressor map 




DougLoBue said:


> Looks like I need to bring you those injectors back!
> 
> You gonna be around this weekend?


No rush, I still have the rest of the piping to fab and pre-turbo nozzle holder to take care off!

Will be around over the weekend !


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Better for blade life and lowering air temperature before it's even compressed mainly due to its lower flash point. But remember, I'm looking for that wet compression to extend compression efficiency and my compressor map


Yeah, I read a little more about it after I posted that and realized you're extending comp. efficiency as the goal. This should work on a K03 as well. I was amazed at how tough my original one was on my GTI. Chipped at 14K miles, MBC it's whole life spiking to 24-25psi, holding 14psi to 7K+, with just a Greddy FMIC. While running open inlet, it ate a Greddy EBC solenoid harness, and sounded funny after that. It had a much different weird whistle from the bent fins. Still boosted fine, and I ran a [email protected] with the turbo like that at 116K miles on it. :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> I was amazed at how tough my original one was on my GTI. Chipped at 14K miles, MBC it's whole life spiking to 24-25psi, holding 14psi to 7K+, with just a Greddy FMIC. While running open inlet, it ate a Greddy EBC solenoid harness, and sounded funny after that. It had a much different weird whistle from the bent fins. Still boosted fine, and I ran a [email protected] with the turbo like that at 116K miles on it. :laugh:


Same findings here! The big brother K04-02X is a lot tougher than most gives it credit for. Mine has been boosting 30+ psi for 2.5 racing seasons and there is no out-of-specs shaft play or oil burning. I wish the Mitsubishi turbos I abused in the same fashion handled it that well. I am going to give it a break now by doing this project because the workload will be a lot less. First by removing all the 6-8 dynamic pressure loss I recorded when I had two boost gauges installed, I can ask the turbo to spin/compress less to make the same pressure. Secondly I can increase compression efficiency and gain power from the energy that was wasted from adiabatic loss.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

opcorn: Ooo by the way you have a PM!!


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Always pushing the envelope! Love it buddy! Kick some ass this year.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*Nice!*

I might have to give this a shot...Looks good 

I'm a firm believer in cooler temps...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Always pushing the envelope! Love it buddy! Kick some ass this year.


Thanks partner, see you and your beast at the track soon!





coachvtt said:


> I might have to give this a shot...Looks good
> 
> I'm a firm believer in cooler temps...


Do it! I got all the leg work done so you'll have plenty of tech support!


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Max may I ask why you went with the nozzle pointing at the runner as opposed to the nozzle placed underneath the manifold closer to the opening of the actual runner? I would think as the air is getting funneled into the runners it'll just pick up whatever comes out of the nozzle and go right in....

Also on a side note. I'm dabbling with the pre turbo injection idea. Do you think it would pose any issues from 20-30 minutes straight on the road course.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Very interested in seeing how all this turns out man! Looks great! All about the details 

Joe


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Max may I ask why you went with the nozzle pointing at the runner as opposed to the nozzle placed underneath the manifold closer to the opening of the actual runner? I would think as the air is getting funneled into the runners it'll just pick up whatever comes out of the nozzle and go right in ...


I have it this way for a couple of reasons but the main one being that anywhere else has the nozzles too close to a wall (which would inevitably result in water pooling on the wall facing the nozzle). 

Another good spot would have been in the runners at a steep angle (injector like) but I wouldn't risk compromising fuel atomization by having water jets right behind the injectors!




spartiati said:


> Also on a side note. I'm dabbling with the pre turbo injection idea. Do you think it would pose any issues from 20-30 minutes straight on the road course.


As long as you have properly sized and positioned nozzles, I don't see why it would pose any problem. The rally cars use straight port H20 injection just like mine and run in extreme conditions for extended time (think 45-50 psi on OEM turbos rated at 19 psi with a restrictor plate, anti-lag and running at maximum timing for full hour+ long sessions. The small privateer teams only do turbo refresh once per season). So it can work for a long time if done properly!


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> As long as you have properly sized and positioned nozzles, I don't see why it would pose any problem. The rally cars use straight port H20 injection just like mine and run in extreme conditions for extended time (think 45-50 psi on OEM turbos rated at 19 psi with a restrictor plate, anti-lag and running at maximum timing for full hour+ long sessions. The small privateer teams only do turbo refresh once per season). So it can work for a long time if done properly!


This is quite amazing and has my attention for refinements to my system as well. We kicked this around and talked about it last year when I was setting mine up as well..

Makes me want to step that one nozzle up. 

I can also say that I ran a AWIC setup on the last mTDI rabbit I had. Utilized the VR5 aux radiator and it worked quite nicely for the exchanger setup. Very sweet. 

Had a old HAMM's brewing aluminum mini- keg for my res. in the trunk as well. Pretty sweet looking...still have it if you wanted to use it in your setup! Here were a few pics...




















Joe


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> This is quite amazing and has my attention for refinements to my system as well. We kicked this around and talked about it last year when I was setting mine up as well..
> 
> Makes me want to step that one nozzle up.
> 
> ...


Nice Joe, that setup was awesome! I'll definitely use the cool keg as a reservoir (maybe have water return go to it and have the keg supply the Ice Box). I have some questions:

-Is the of the keg removable?
-What's the capacity? (looks like a 2.5 gal)
-Do you have any other pictures as I would want to run standing up?

Thanks a lot Joe! 
PS: I still have to send you the stuff I promised, I just keep getting them snatched from under me...


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## murTTer (Jun 27, 2009)

I get cooling IAT's but why not get a bigger turbo that wont be working outside of its parameters? This alone would lower bay temps.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

murTTer said:


> I get cooling IAT's but why not get a bigger turbo that wont be working outside of its parameters? This alone would lower bay temps.


Racing class restrictions.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

murTTer said:


> I get cooling IAT's but why not get a bigger turbo that wont be working outside of its parameters? This alone would lower bay temps.


1) *Lag*
2) Racing class restriction
3) *Lag*
4) Not as cool and rewarding
5) *Lag*

In the sport that I compete in, you need all the available torque as early as possible and waiting for 4k to spool seems like an eternity. I am not fan of a car without instant response anyway, even if I wasn't racing. It sucks when you come out of a turn at 2k in second gear, press the gas and there is nothing. With the more efficient turbo you speak about, by the time you'd finally spool you're at your next braking zone.

Did I mention I hate Lag? The best way I can describe racing with turbos that are bigger than what's needed for an engine size is trying to download a movie with a slow computer, very annoying!


*It's all about this for me*


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> 1) *Lag*
> 2) Racing class restriction
> 3) *Lag*
> 4) Not as cool and rewarding
> ...


Fixed for ya


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Nice Joe, that setup was awesome! I'll definitely use the cool keg as a reservoir (maybe have water return go to it and have the keg supply the Ice Box). I have some questions:
> 
> -Is the of the keg removable?
> -What's the capacity? (looks like a 2.5 gal)
> ...


What do you mean removable? If you simply mean can it be moved as it is there? Sure can! It was probably a bit of a crude looking setup but it worked VERY well....the piping often times was super cool to the touch even after hot runs....quite amazing,

I had the system king of interestingly designed....the keg acted as more of a reserve res for the entire system. The final incarnation of the system used it where you see it there and then for the fill point I used a modified VAG bin coolant res that was the highest point in the system...

The keg is 2.5 gal ...right on there. It could be easily modified/welded to accommodate whatever you want. I figured I had near a 6 gal setup with the intercooler itself, exchanger, res and reserve along with the capacity of the line I was running.

I would have to see if I have more pictures archived....I am sure I do. Like I said though, gladly will let you make use of it in your setup if you can use it!

No prob on the other stuff! I am glad things are working out well for ya!

Joe


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Nice to see more and more tiTTies with AWIC systems, peeps in the UK will not be persuaded that it is a good system to run..
Here is my simple setup, all in the front of the TT..








I cant comprehend the water injection side of things and cant get involved with that one.
Steve


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> What do you mean removable? If you simply mean can it be moved as it is there? Sure can! It was probably a bit of a crude looking setup but it worked VERY well....the piping often times was super cool to the touch even after hot runs....quite amazing,
> 
> I had the system king of interestingly designed....the keg acted as more of a reserve res for the entire system. The final incarnation of the system used it where you see it there and then for the fill point I used a modified VAG bin coolant res that was the highest point in the system...
> 
> ...


What I meant by removable is if there was a fill opening on the hidden side of the picture. Now with your explanation it's more clear that the keg was used as a reserve/volume reservoir 
and not as an overflow/fill bottle. I think I am going to use it in the same fashion in my system and maybe even steal your convenient idea of an OEM coolant ball as my water fill and burp reservoir.

I'll email you about the keg sometime today!


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

I had no idea why you would want to inject water into your turbo, so I googled and found good info instead of asking here: http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html


Maybe this is why my car is going into limp mode sometimes when the car is hot? My turbo is getting too hot and either detonation is occuring or the AF ratio is running really rich?

When should you consider putting water injection into your car?



Thanks for the post. Brought this entire topic to my attention :thumbup:


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Chuckmeister87 said:


> Maybe this is why my car is going into limp mode sometimes when the car is hot? My turbo is getting too hot and either detonation is occuring or the AF ratio is running really rich?


Make a new post with a good description/mod list/maintenance on sensors and we can probably figure out what's up with your car. The smallest sensor issue could cause a car to enter limp mode. If you're running regular chipped power levels you're far from requiring water injection.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DougLoBue said:


> Make a new post with a good description/mod list/maintenance on sensors and we can probably figure out what's up with your car. The smallest sensor issue could cause a car to enter limp mode. If you're running regular chipped power levels you're far from requiring water injection.


Yeah hitting limp mode could be from many possible issues and "turbo being too hot on standard chip" is not one of them. I would say however that the chemical cooling of water/alcohol injection is never a bad thing on these stock turbos, regardless of power levels (I have seen the ECU do decent IAT related timing correction on bone stock cars).

Doug, I'm heading to FFE right now to drop some piping work done for my AWIC!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> Nice to see more and more tiTTies with AWIC systems, peeps in the UK will not be persuaded that it is a good system to run..
> Here is my simple setup, all in the front of the TT..
> 
> 
> ...


Steve, that's a nice setup! I almost went with the same core to simplify the piping but opted for a straight in/out core. I have some questions for you:

How is the heat exchange on a small radiator mounted in the side vent?
What is your total water capacity?
What pump do you use?

BTW you have the sickest 3.2 I've seen! :thumbup:


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Doug, I'm heading to FFE right now to drop some piping work done for my AWIC!


NICE!

We're not gonna blow any IC pipes off this year :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DougLoBue said:


> NICE!
> 
> We're not gonna blow any IC pipes off this year :thumbup::thumbup:


At least that's the plan but I'm sure we'll find something else to blow!


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What I meant by removable is if there was a fill opening on the hidden side of the picture. Now with your explanation it's more clear that the keg was used as a reserve/volume reservoir
> and not as an overflow/fill bottle. I think I am going to use it in the same fashion in my system and maybe even steal your convenient idea of an OEM coolant ball as my water fill and burp reservoir.
> 
> I'll email you about the keg sometime today!


Gotcha man, I see what you were saying. Yeah, using it as a reserve tank really worked well. In the boot it was isolated away from heat, etc and the fact is aluminum meant for an awesome heat transfer rate. 

On the would be "bottom" of the keg standing to there is a large opening that was used for refilling/filling of the beer, etc. it is still there...could be reworked in another fashion I'm sure with your welding skills...

Def let me know 

Joe


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Steve, that's a nice setup! I almost went with the same core to simplify the piping but opted for a straight in/out core. I have some questions for you:
> 
> How is the heat exchange on a small radiator mounted in the side vent?
> What is your total water capacity?
> ...


Cheers.
Here is a pic of my AWIC front mounted rad, in front of the main water rad..








The side vents are taken up with the aux engine water rad [oem] and in the other is the new secondary engine oil rad controlled by a sandwich plate and internal stat.
Here are some pics of the pump with a home made bracket. It goes in place of the deleted AC compressor..
















My system volume for the AWIC is approx 4 litres.
Steve


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

sTT eV6 said:


> Cheers.
> 
> My system volume for the AWIC is approx 4 litres.
> Steve


Do you know what the temperature range of your AWIC coolant is?


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Late__Apex said:


> Do you know what the temperature range of your AWIC coolant is?


In the UK we get the odd cold spell and so, there is a small amount of anti-freeze added.
My lower range is approx minus 10C and normal driving with an ambient temp of 15C is approx 25C after the charge cooler and with pre chargecooler temps at approx 40C.
Obv, if i added an iced reservoir into the system the AITs would be lower, but im happy with the results at the mo.
Steve


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## Currancchs (Feb 24, 2011)

That setup looks awesome! If you're ever racing in the New England area let me know, I'd love to see this thing in action!


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Currancchs said:


> That setup looks awesome! If you're ever racing in the New England area let me know, I'd love to see this thing in action!


I live in old England..UK
Steve


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

sTT eV6 said:


> I live in old England..UK
> Steve


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

sTT eV6 said:


> I live in old England..UK
> Steve


lol


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> I live in old England..UK
> Steve





PLAYED TT said:


>





DeckManDubs said:


> lol



Guys, I think Matt was talking to me with the "If you're ever racing in New England thing"!


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## Currancchs (Feb 24, 2011)

Haha, yeah I was. I just read the first page of this and posted, didn't realize the conversation went on for this long!

P.s. very interesting conversation regarding pre turbo injection, I've never heard of or seen it done.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Inline pump arrived today! I'll be using two pumps (one submersible 1000 gal/Hr pump and a 300 gal/Hr inline). Why the redundancy you may ask? Primarily for flow but I also wanted to make them not only support each other but also act as a failsafe if/when one pump takes a crap on me.

This little sucker is perfect for the job:
-Self priming
-Decent Flow while being able to max at 50 psi
-Designed for extended hours of use
-Comes with mounting bracket
-Light and small
-Cheap ($45 with warranty and I also bought a pair to carry a spare at the track)


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Guys, I think Matt was talking to me with the "If you're ever racing in New England thing"!



Totally feel stupid, lol


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Bored at home, I decided to test my little pump!

It is rated at 300 gal/hr which would be 5 gal per minute at max flow. So why not put those rated numbers to the test? I filled my 5 gal cooler with water and hooked the pump up to a loose battery. It takes approximately 50 seconds to empty the cooler (purposely overfilled the cooler a bit to account for the few drops that the pickup tube would miss at the end). 

So the pump flows closer to 6 gal per minute (1 gal every 10 seconds). I am trying to keep my system around 3.5 gal maximum without the ice box (ice box will be used at the track only and will powered by its own bilge pump). According to my calculations, even with the added pressure/restrictions and loss of flow with all the components hooked up, I should be able to circulate the entire fluid volume under a minute. 

*My garage edition testing rig and flow test video* 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ea0hi9vQh8


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Some key parts arrived today that will allow me to make some progress with the project.

I had to have a custom silicone angle made after I was let down by FFE for more than 3 weeks. They kept giving me the run around while my stuff was scattered around the shop and never touched :thumbdown:

*Everything is fitting like a glove with the with the 42 DD intake and TIP installed *



















*Water heat exchanger also arrived. I am going to give it a try without a fan at the driver side SMIC location and later on add one if needed.*














*While I'm at it, I got a Valeo 3 row radiator upgrade to replace the OEM unit and relieve the stress put on the system that is easily overwhelmed.*













*The best spot to mount the utility pump was at old battery tray bracket location, so I relocated my Deka 15 lbs battery on the flat section of the spare tire hump*


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## Subverter (Apr 17, 2012)

Marcus nice info. H
ave you had a chance to check your in box I sent you a pm 2 nights ago


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Subverter said:


> Marcus nice info. H
> ave you had a chance to check your in box I sent you a pm 2 nights ago


You got a reply :beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

How was the Valeo install? I'm kicking around a rad upgrade, might as well...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> How was the Valeo install? I'm kicking around a rad upgrade, might as well...


I haven't installed it yet Eric but plan to tackle that and a few other stuff tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes but I don't expect it to be anything but a straight swap once the bumper and radiator clip are removed.


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

l88m22vette said:


> How was the Valeo install? I'm kicking around a rad upgrade, might as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No fitment issues - bolt-in replacement.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Nice!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DougLoBue said:


> Nice!


I'm trying to get everything finished this week and hopefully drive the car out to you soon so we can schedule to tackle the clutch. We have been missing out on some good racing!


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

Max...what size are your direct port nozzles and where did you get them?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

DougLoBue said:


> Nice!


x2, another part for the list :facepalm: :laugh:


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm trying to get everything finished this week and hopefully drive the car out to you soon so we can schedule to tackle the clutch. We have been missing out on some good racing!




Do you still want the aluminum keg? I tried to email from the email you last sent me with your address letting you know that I sent it out and it got kicked back to me by USPS for some reason. It had the correct address and everything (so not sure why it did). I ate that shipping the first time around and didn't want to send it back out again if you didn't want it. 

Hadn't heard back. I know you are a busy man though. Let me know. 

Joe


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> Do you still want the aluminum keg? I tried to email from the email you last sent me with your address letting you know that I sent it out and it got kicked back to me by USPS for some reason. It had the correct address and everything (so not sure why it did). I ate that shipping the first time around and didn't want to send it back out again if you didn't want it.
> 
> Hadn't heard back. I know you are a busy man though. Let me know.
> 
> Joe


Oh wow, I sure want it! I don't know why it got kicked back, I receive a couple of packages on a daily basis. I am going to email you right away so I can rectify the situation (shipping and all). Your email must have slipped through the cracks with everything I got going on, and I thought you had forgot about it. Thanks Joe :beer:


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Let's get the clutch done this week then massacre the local auto-x with dual TT's on Sunday!

You have the parts already right? Slave cylinder too?


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dowski12 said:


> Max...what size are your direct port nozzles and where did you get them?


They are 35 cc/min nozzles. The jet holes were drilled to allow the narrowest cone spray possible but unfortunately not available like that "off the shelf". I was lucky to have the contracted machine shop that makes them for a big company local to me (it helped that I knew the machinist enough to ask for the favor).


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DougLoBue said:


> Let's get the clutch done this week then massacre the local auto-x with dual TT's on Sunday!
> 
> You have the parts already right? Slave cylinder too?


No slave cylinder yet but I'm going to try to have all the clutch parts ready so we can go out next weekend (I work better with deadlines) :beer:


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

Want to ask again:laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dowski12 said:


> Want to ask again:laugh:


If you're serious about cloning the direct port setup, I can make it happen. I thought about having him make more the first time but didn't think that I would find any use for the extras.


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

Been really interested in direct porting my manifold since I first saw your setup. I was thinking about running it at an extreme angle on the runners from underneath so you wouldn't see any of the tubing but in the long run your setup just seems to make more since. If you could get more I would definitley be interested in taking some of them off your hands


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dowski12 said:


> Been really interested in direct porting my manifold since I first saw your setup. I was thinking about running it at an extreme angle on the runners from underneath so you wouldn't see any of the tubing but in the long run your setup just seems to make more since. If you could get more I would definitley be interested in taking some of them off your hands


The problem I saw with running the nozzles in the actual runners is the angle would have to be pretty extreme to work. This would require to weld nozzle mounts because a simple drill and tap would not be ideal at that angle. 

As far as the nozzles I can contact him tomorrow and PM you the lead time and cost (they are not expensive).


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sounds great, I appreciate it. If they were to be welded in the runners, could you still use the 35cc/min nozzles?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dowski12 said:


> Sounds great, I appreciate it. If they were to be welded in the runners, could you still use the 35cc/min nozzles?


I wouldn't weld the nozzle themselves but a metal bung that would house them. Nozzles have to be taken apart and cleaned from time to time to prevent clogging (there is a mini screw in filter inside them). Another thing to consider with placement in the runners is spray interference with the injectors that are also in the runners, so be wise with your placement.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I didn't have full confidence in the 4-1 plastic fitting that was going to use for my direct port. I don't like the idea of having something made of plastic with no heat rating specs, sitting in a hot engine bay. 

Solution came from my good people at 42 Draft Designs (thanks John!), that hooked me up. Their vac manifold is a nice piece and perfect for the job. 


*Plastic 4-1 fitting that the 42 DD manifold is replacing *













*The manifold*





















*Final product with metal quick fittings installed*


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## [email protected] (Oct 16, 2006)

Looks absolutely awesome Max! These blocks and be put to use other than just vacuum! 

Could you also PM the details on the nozzles? My SEM manifold should be in shortly and will be re-doing my WMI setup, direct port in an SEM manifold sounds nice!

-John


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Could you also PM the details on the nozzles? My SEM manifold should be in shortly and will be re-doing my WMI setup, direct port in an SEM manifold sounds nice!
> -John


No problem John, my guy told me he will let me know when he can make some more custom nozzles before the end of the week. I'll have him make 20 (5 sets) and yours are reserved! :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> How was the Valeo install? I'm kicking around a rad upgrade, might as well...


Steve was correct, it's a direct replacement.

As far as the install, the bumper skin, crash bar, fan/shroud assembly had to come off. The front clip was unbolted to make space to slide the radiator in/out. Not that bad once you know what to take out (I started removing the fans individually before I realized you could just undo the fan/shroud as an assembly), it's just a lot of steps.


*Thickness difference. The Valeo is a lot less stronger than the OEM radiator and can easily get damaged on the install *

*Shroud/fan assembly moved back, front clip pushed forward and radiator removed*












*The mayhem*


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## [email protected] (Oct 16, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> No problem John, my guy told me he will let me know when he can make some more custom nozzles before the end of the week. I'll have him make 20 (5 sets) and yours are reserved! :beer:


Awesome thanks Max!


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Max, does the additional thickness of the Valeo three row sit toward the front of the car, or the rear? I _really_ need that rad, but once my FMIC is in there is only about 1/2mm of dead space between the rad and the crash bar.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> Max, does the additional thickness of the Valeo three row sit toward the front of the car, or the rear? I _really_ need that rad, but once my FMIC is in there is only about 1/2mm of dead space between the rad and the crash bar.


Jeremy, the added thickness is distributed on both sides. However, you could just shim the radiator mounts where they bolt to the front clip with washers to move the assembly back as needed.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Thank you :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

*Some progress made with the AWIC piping done. I need to finish the water routing and move to the next project (a clutch that is at the level of everything else in the car) * 




















*42dd vac manifold installed*


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

cant have enough from keeping up with ur on going progress in improving such adored platform. 

props for 42DD adapting the vacuum manifold to ur spec. 

keep it coming and make ur lab numbers count #crossfingers


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

your the last person i would expect to see using that DV


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

babarber said:


> your the last person i would expect to see using that DV


 :laugh::laugh::laugh: it would help if you guys would stop snatching every valve I build for the car. 

Don't worry, I have a sick twin diverter valve setup welded on a short pipe that will be on the car before I hit the dyno. I just have to get the clutch done first and then I'll leak some info about the sickest turbo bypass system I've seen put on a K04... Stay tuned.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I closed and tested the air-to-water cooling system yesterday. Everything works flawlessly and there is plenty of water flow and the overall system pressure doesn't phase the utility pump. 

The beer keg also arrived courtesy of RabbitGTDguy (thanks Joe!) but is just a couple inches too big for me to use in the engine bay. I had deleted the coolant ball and relocated the power steering reservoir in hope of freeing up enough space under the hood but it wasn't enough. The keg is now going to go to the trunk and be used at the track only as an ice/water system booster. 

So, the nasty looking coolant ball went back in the car, but this time modified as a reservoir for the AWIC system. It is perfect for the job because it is located high enough to burp the system of air, has decent size filler neck, and overflow built-in.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I love you Marcus, and I know it's form over function, but your engine bay looks like poop. :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> I love you Marcus, and I know it's form over function, but your engine bay looks like poop. :laugh:


 I know, and I considered a pink silicone hose assortment for guys like you :laugh:... and I love you too! 

In reality it's nothing but function for me under the hood, form is not part of the vocabulary. I have all the pretty Audi engine bay dressing covers in a box but every time I grab the box to put them on, the weight of it slaps some sense back into me.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh: it would help if you guys would stop snatching every valve I build for the car.


 i ordered one off some evo forum and made my own i was close to buying a new one but i found one with like 500miles on it cuz some guy bought a brand new evo and immediately changed his dv... silly evo guys dont know they have one of the best DVs on the market


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

AWIC project is finally done! I got to drive the car today to make sure everything runs as it should. I ended up squeezing a second coolant ball where the steering fluid reservoir used to be, before relocation. I use the original one for the AWIC fluid and the second one as my real radiator expansion tank. 

The setup is sweet and runs flawlessly, the core inlet was hot while the outlet was cold to the touch after a spirited 1 hour drive. I know that's not a good measurement of the system's efficiency but I couldn't log any solid pulls because the only spot that didn't have a t-bolt clamp kept popping from the 30+ psi facepalm: a quick run to the local speed shop and everything is sealed tightly now). Proper logging, evaluation and development of the AWIC system will follow. 

I was also paying attention to coolant temperatures after the Valeo 3-row radiator upgrade. On the cluster, the gauge now rest way under the half mark ... at first I thought the car was still warming up, but it just never got hotter than that. For those considering the upgrade, my gauge used to rest a bit over the half mark no matter what I did (even hardwiring the fans to both be "on" at the track). I am more than satisfied with the upgrade and would recommend it to anyone, especially for the price. 


*Final bay arrangement, we all deserve to have a pair of balls (coolant ) * 




















*After running wingless for a while, I decided to spice it up with the ABT wing I had collecting dust in the garage*


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

As usual, great work Marcus! I'll be waiting to hear on how well these setups work out for you when you really beat on it. 

And thanks for the tip on the radiator. I've stared at mine thinking "this can't possibly cut it in the long run". A great addition for those of us that still run a FMIC. Gonna try one out....after I get my rig running.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Glad it's all coming together (at my suggestion)!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> As usual, great work Marcus! I'll be waiting to hear on how well these setups work out for you when you really beat on it.
> 
> And thanks for the tip on the radiator. I've stared at mine thinking "this can't possibly cut it in the long run". A great addition for those of us that still run a FMIC. Gonna try one out....after I get my rig running.


 Thanks bud, after I did some more driving and testing I can say that the upgraded radiator really improved things. Before, my terminal temperature fully heat soaked was 93* ... but now, my terminal temperature logged after pushing the car for 40 min is 86* 















20v master said:


> Glad it's all coming together (at my suggestion)!


 Yeah, you definitely influenced my decision on what route to take when this was all but an idea :beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Isn't running under the half mark considered bad?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> Isn't running under the half mark considered bad?


 Not as bad as running over the half mark. To me, being over the half mark meant an inneficient system on the verge of being overwhelmed. Now, being under that mark means a more efficient system with some increased head room for hotlapping before you reach that inevitable threshold.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

do you have a lower temp thermostat? they are supposed to open at 87* Celsius unless you get an 83* thermostat


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Great work Max...I think you are going to find that the keg is much more beneficial in the trunk/boot anyways. Reason being...that aluminum, its thickness and just the properties of the aluminum when it comes to dissapating heat, etc. are amazing. If you put it in the engine bay, I think you'd end up with warmer temps. Again, think I mentioned it before but I ran it in the trunk of the Rabbit mTDI I did just for that reason...to act as a reserve and "heat sink" of sorts for the entire system. The reserve capacity is near 2.5-3.0 gal which is nice and by the time you figure that water in your supply lines, etc....you have an awesomely designed system. I did the same thing with the res. in the front of the car....it worked PERFECTLY. and didn't steal from the looks/complexity of crap in the engine bay either. 

Now...on the 42DD manifold for the WMI direct port...question. Are you using it as a distribution block then to then feed the nozzles as the individual ports on the intake manifold itself? My only worry there might be... 

1. do you think there will be any pressure drop across the nozzles since you'd probably only have one solenoid (assuming on that single line/supply) driving the four different nozzles? 

2. That said as well...with the potential volume left in the distribution block, etc. when it comes to the water/meth...do you think you'll get any vac feedback/idle fluct with using that setup? 

You and I have discussed the direct port before. I'm heading towards that notion as well but have been waiting for a nice direct port plate to come up. USRT was supposed to be creating a direct port plate that we could install between the intake manifold and head...but I've yet to see it come to fruition. Additionally, there is the option of just directly tapping the OEM manifold (no biggy there). Just a "looks" think and properly locating it relative to where the injectors are. 

I've considered a number of options for the direct porting of the WMI setup. 

Version 1: Most complicated...over done I imagine... 

-direct porting to indiviudal runners from a 5-1 distribution block. Solenoid located on each line and as close to the port itself as possible (to prevent siphoning). 5th port would be for the pre TB nozzle 

Version 2: More leaning towards... 

-direct porting of the individual runners as above...but instead of a solenoid for each runner to control flow...I would run a solenoid for every two runners (so three solenoid all total). 

Version 3: 

-same idea, direct port...but a single solenoid distrituting to the 4 runners from a distribution block and then a solenoid for the pre TB unit. 

or...do you think 1 solenoid in the system is plenty? 

Currently, I will run my pre TB and post TB nozzle (dual setup) off the single solenoid itself. 

Anyways...just options and ideas. 

I sent you an email and such making sure all was well...glad the keg is of use. Its quite the unit. Email me back when you get a chance. 

Joe


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

babarber said:


> do you have a lower temp thermostat? they are supposed to open at 87* Celsius unless you get an 83* thermostat


You will also need a matching colder CTS to go with the thermostat :thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> You will also need a matching colder CTS to go with the thermostat :thumbup:


You meant to say low temp fan switch, and no you don't need it.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

I have a 70 stat and FOS for the strip.
Steve


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

babarber said:


> do you have a lower temp thermostat? they are supposed to open at 87* Celsius unless you get an 83* thermostat


I bought a 82*C one with my upgraded radiator but didn't install it yet. I like to be able to test one variable at the time, and for now the regular OEM stat is working perfectly. 

I also did try a lower temp one in the past and didn't like the results in the winter, as the car struggled to reach what was acceptable temperature to me. I did buy the unit used, so that's why I bought a fresh one to see if the results will improve this time.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> You meant to say low temp fan switch, and no you don't need it.


I have been toying with the idea of using a potentiometer inline with the low temp fan switch. Having the ability to "tune" when the fan kicks on is appealing to me now that I rely on them for the AWIC coolant when the car is a rest or very low speed. Thoughts?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> Great work Max...I think you are going to find that the keg is much more beneficial in the trunk/boot anyways. Reason being...that aluminum, its thickness and just the properties of the aluminum when it comes to dissapating heat, etc. are amazing. If you put it in the engine bay, I think you'd end up with warmer temps. Again, think I mentioned it before but I ran it in the trunk of the Rabbit mTDI I did just for that reason...to act as a reserve and "heat sink" of sorts for the entire system. The reserve capacity is near 2.5-3.0 gal which is nice and by the time you figure that water in your supply lines, etc....you have an awesomely designed system. I did the same thing with the res. in the front of the car....it worked PERFECTLY. and didn't steal from the looks/complexity of crap in the engine bay either.
> Joe


You are absolutely right that it will work much better in the trunk. Even without the keg in the loop, the system is very efficient. With water injection disabled, my IAT *drops* initially until the temp from the turbo running full steam to compress 33 psi overwhelms the system at 4k and up... and even then it only rises at about 5* Celcius in average. I can't wait to see what this can do with ice water and the extra water volume with the Keg. I have some interesting logs in the laptop and will post some when I get home later.




RabbitGTDguy said:


> Now...on the 42DD manifold for the WMI direct port...question. Are you using it as a distribution block then to then feed the nozzles as the individual ports on the intake manifold itself? My only worry there might be...
> 
> 1. do you think there will be any pressure drop across the nozzles since you'd probably only have one solenoid (assuming on that single line/supply) driving the four different nozzles?
> 
> ...


Joe I haven't finished and properly tested/tuned the direct port injection. My goal was to get the AWIC up and running, then move to the next thing. The plan is to run a solenoid dedicated to each line after the distribution block. I don't think that pressure drop is going to be an issue with the 800 psi pump that is going in (my aquatec pump is done too, but at least it lasted longer than the Shurflo garbage that comes in about every cheap kit). If anything I am going to have to do the lines over to be able to take the pressure increase in the long run. Stay tuned for some more development in the near future.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

These two log snapshots are two pulls in a series, they show Coolant temp, IAT, and Timing VS RPM. They were all done without water injection and cool down period just to test the AWIC as a single variable. I didn't bother with timing corrections because there were none and would show blank in a graph.

As you can see, from pull to pull the behavior is the same and shows greater efficiency than a common air-to-air intercooler that looses efficiency after each pulls. The IAT initially drops from onset to midrange and then the heat generated by the stock turbo at 30+ psi becomes greater than what the system can dissipate and the IAT rises 3-4* over the initial IAT off-boost. 

Coolant temp was monitored to see if the upgraded radiator would pass the hot lapping test that usually get the stock radiator struggling. It did and the soaked temp was 83* at first and only 85-86* when fully heat soaked. 

Timing was also logged to see if the charge air cooling was enough to support as much timing advance as I run, and everything looks good with nothing to show as far timing correction deeps.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

wow that AWIC is incredible to keep the temps and timing pull that low on a 33psi k04 w/o w/m injection thats absolutely incredible 

i was waiting to do the AWIC for my car because my everyone praises air to air over AWIC, especially my tuner. so i decided to wait for some concrete evidence and now i have it. first step after i finish my suspension will be the AWIC


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

babarber said:


> wow that AWIC is incredible to keep the temps and timing pull that low on a 33psi k04 w/o w/m injection thats absolutely incredible
> 
> i was waiting to do the AWIC for my car because my everyone praises air to air over AWIC, especially my tuner. so i decided to wait for some concrete evidence and now i have it. first step after i finish my suspension will be the AWIC


I am amazed too, I wasn't expecting it to be that efficient, being that it is such a rudimentary design and simply some parts that I put together. I couldn't believe the results and kept testing over and over to see if the results would change... but pull after pull during a two day period, nothing changed. When the off-boost temperature drops and only rises 4-5 degrees over the initial temp, it more than I expected. 

As far as AWIC being less efficient, as long as the system is well matched to the car, there is nothing that an air-to-air intercooler can do to come close in terms of efficiency. Water cools so much better as medium than air, on top of that you need optimal airflow to get good efficiency out of an air-to-air system and that's impossible in practice. The appeal of air- to- air is that it is easily packaged around the space restrictions and there are less parts to buy, maintain and potentially fail. Tell your tuner to check his facts


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

his exact words " there isnt enough surface area to transfer that much heat. you would need a huge IC" tried to tell him AWIC doesnt need a huge core to be efficient but he disagreed with me. hes good at what he does but i take everything he says with a grain of salt.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> These two log snapshots are two pulls in a series, they show Coolant temp, IAT, and Timing VS RPM. They were all done without water injection and cool down period just to test the AWIC as a single variable. I didn't bother with timing corrections because there were none and would show blank in a graph.
> 
> As you can see, from pull to pull the behavior is the same and shows greater efficiency than a common air-to-air intercooler that looses efficiency after each pulls. The IAT initially drops from onset to midrange and then the heat generated by the stock turbo at 30+ psi becomes greater than what the system can dissipate and the IAT rises 3-4* over the initial IAT off-boost.
> 
> ...


simply put...impressive. 

Now get that keg in the trunk...without the ice...watch it's heat sink action and reserve capacity work even more wonders...and even moreso with ice!

Joe


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Great results! 

also got my AWIC setup together over the weekend, took my first log tonight, 26PSI pull with a single WMI nozzle located after the TB (I had to completely redo my WMI setup as I my charge piping all has been replaced) and I held a solid 35c intake temperature up to redline. I currently have a closed loop system with a single VR6 Auxiliary radiator as my exchanger. Building a tank in the trunk this weekend. System needs much optimization but I am happy with the current result.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> simply put...impressive.
> 
> Now get that keg in the trunk...without the ice...watch it's heat sink action and reserve capacity work even more wonders...and even moreso with ice!
> 
> Joe


Yup, that's next with a drain located in the front at an accessible spot. Just need to clear some time to mount the keg and run the hoses but it should be pretty easy and straightforward. This should bring my overall capacity to around 6 gallons and I wonder if I should attempt to run that on a single pump or not risk it until I have my second pump plumbed and wired (god I hate wiring). What do you think?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Malant said:


> Great results!
> 
> also got my AWIC setup together over the weekend, took my first log tonight, 26PSI pull with a single WMI nozzle located after the TB (I had to completely redo my WMI setup as I my charge piping all has been replaced) and I held a solid 35c intake temperature up to redline. I currently have a closed loop system with a single VR6 Auxiliary radiator as my exchanger. Building a tank in the trunk this weekend. System needs much optimization but I am happy with the current result.


John, what's your overall capacity and I thought you were going for a dual heat exchanger the last time we spoke about that? Also what pump did you end up using and did you run any test on it? One last question, what do you use as far as cooling fluid? I did some research and I'm about to start using a super cocktail that will supposedly work in stages. Please share some pictures too if you don't mind


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> John, what's your overall capacity and I thought you were going for a dual heat exchanger the last time we spoke about that? Also what pump did you end up using and did you run any test on it? One last question, what do you use as far as cooling fluid? I did some research and I'm about to start using a super cocktail that will supposedly work in stages. Please share some pictures too if you don't mind


Dual exchangers is the plan, I have the other exchanger ready to go in, however I ran out of time when putting all this together, so I started with a "simple" design. My WMI pump is currently located in the spot where I wanted to put the other exchanger so I need to remount that as well.

I went with the Bosch Cobra, I did not run any flow tests on it but I could as it is not difficult to get to. 

Right now I am using strait water, I will have to look into the super cocktail, I might switch to that once I get my setup 100% finished and happy with everything. Total capacity is unknown, not much as it is just what it takes to fill the Aux radiator, the core and the short lines between. When I do the next level of this I will measure everything before filling.

I wanted this to come out much cleaner but I ran out of time on Saturday, the next re-vamping (this weekend) I am going to cut off the end tanks of this current core and fabricate some different ones so I can run straighter piping and move it back towards the headlight so I can run the velocity stack and filter again.











Edit: Also I think I am going to tap the AWIC core (water chamber at the top left corner if you are looking at it from the front of the car) for a bleeder valve. With the cramped space on the TT and how I am having everything routed I don't believe my res will be able to be located at the highest point. A simple bleeder valve there should ensure zero air gets trapped in my system, air pockets are obviously not to desirable in the core where I want as much water as possible. Thoughts?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Malant said:


> Edit: Also I think I am going to tap the AWIC core (water chamber at the top left corner if you are looking at it from the front of the car) for a bleeder valve. With the cramped space on the TT and how I am having everything routed I don't believe my res will be able to be located at the highest point. A simple bleeder valve there should ensure zero air gets trapped in my system, air pockets are obviously not to desirable in the core where I want as much water as possible. Thoughts?


You definitely want to have a filler neck at the highest point. A bleeder valve is a bandaid IMO especially when you're designing everything from scratch. Ideally, I would have your welder build a long filler neck in the trunk mounted tank or even a small engine bay reservoir mounted where the p/s reservoir is located now (just relocate it somewhere else and it does not have to be in your face, as long as you can get to the cap when needed).

With mine, I kept adding water and everytime I tought it was full and went for a drive, the system would burp trapped air out and leave space to add more fluid. This went on for a long time until the system was finally air free. Completely full and air free, the system pressurizes quite a bit and the convenience of having a self burping system that can be easily filled is super important.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

6 gallons? You just added 50lbs. :laugh:


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ideally, I would have your welder build a long filler neck in the trunk mounted tank


That should be fairly simple to do as we are building the tank from scratch, I will just have an aluminum neck that will go higher than the core. I have a PS reservoir that is a square tank that goes into the frame rail, you can fill it through one of the OEM holes in the rail, will be putting that in next time the core support is off, but id rather not put a tank in the engine bay, things are cluttered enough as is in there. Trying to make everything as simple as possible so when working on it I am not constantly removing everything.

Looking forward to those direct port nozzles to! Scott at USRT is VERY interested in them as well.

-John


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> 6 gallons? You just added 50lbs. :laugh:


Correct, 49.2 lbs to be exact at full capacity. Small price to pay IMO, when I saved 22 lbs off of the front axle by going to AWIC and the SMICs were polar weight. Another thing to remember is more than half of that weight will be located right on top of the rear axle, further improving static weight distribution (battery relocated in the back also). 

50lbs -22lbs = 27 lbs gain over the rear axle and the potential ability to get IAT to drop under boost without the help of water injection, as well as instant response and no pressure drop in air charge. To me it's an excellent trade off (I can loose that 22 lbs by getting one single lighter seats).


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Correct, 49.2 lbs to be exact at full capacity. Small price to pay IMO, when I saved 22 lbs off of the front axle by going to AWIC and the SMICs were polar weight. Another thing to remember is more than half of that weight will be located right on top of the rear axle, further improving static weight distribution (battery relocated in the back also).
> 
> 50lbs -22lbs = 27 lbs gain over the rear axle and the potential ability to get IAT to drop under boost without the help of water injection, as well as instant response and no pressure drop in air charge. To me it's an excellent trade off (I can loose that 22 lbs by getting one single lighter seats).


AND you're setup for a new intake manifold.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> AND you're setup for a new intake manifold.


That is also 100% correct!


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## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I have been toying with the idea of using a potentiometer inline with the low temp fan switch. Having the ability to "tune" when the fan kicks on is appealing to me now that I rely on them for the AWIC coolant when the car is a rest or very low speed. Thoughts?


Won't do what you want ... if you mean the thermoswitch that's in the left side of the radiator. That's a *switch* (well, OK a pair of switches), not a sensor. Contacts are open or closed depending on temperature, and the switching temp & hysteresis are built-in.

You could do what you want a few different ways. Easiest would be to put a manual switch in parallel with the thermoswitch contact, over-riding when you want to turn on the fan. With the switch off, operation would be normal (controlled by the FCM).

A little harder would be to add a separate temperature sensor & relay, turning on the fan based on temperature setpoint you dial-in. Should be available from aftermarket fan suppliers, but you'd need to figure out where to get your temperature reading. Wire it in parallel like above, and it has no effect when you turn it off.


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## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I was also paying attention to coolant temperatures after the Valeo 3-row radiator upgrade. On the cluster, the gauge now rest way under the half mark ... at first I thought the car was still warming up, but it just never got hotter than that. For those considering the upgrade, my gauge used to rest a bit over the half mark no matter what I did (even hardwiring the fans to both be "on" at the track).


I don't get this (even allowing for the non-realistic software filtering that's done on the needle position). 

VCDS I believe though, and if VCDS shows you are running cooler now then I think your thermostat must be not closing completely. AFAIK, coolant temp should be set by the thermostat, at least until you are pushing hard enough for the T/S to be fully open. At that point coolant temps are determined by cooling capacity and heat load only.

Maybe your cooling capacity was so low before that a non-closing T/S didn't really matter.

In any case, great job on the AWIC! First time I've seen one in detail.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Charlie_M said:


> You could do what you want a few different ways. Easiest would be to put a manual switch in parallel with the thermoswitch contact, over-riding when you want to turn on the fan. With the switch off, operation would be normal (controlled by the FCM).


:thumbup: I thought it was a sensor that sent a signal to the controller that took care of switching the fan on/off based on the readings :screwy: me

A manual switch like you suggested will do exactly what I'm after. I had the fans hardwired to be continuously "on" at some point to deal with the car almost overheating while staging in between runs at the track. The solution was temporary but helped the coolant system recover from hard runs while at rest. With a switch, it could be used when needed and have normal operation otherwise.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Charlie_M said:


> I don't get this (even allowing for the non-realistic software filtering that's done on the needle position).
> 
> VCDS I believe though, and if VCDS shows you are running cooler now then I think your thermostat must be not closing completely. AFAIK, coolant temp should be set by the thermostat, at least until you are pushing hard enough for the T/S to be fully open. At that point coolant temps are determined by cooling capacity and heat load only.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I fully agree with the logic here Charlie and I wouldn't be so quick to blame the thermostat for the result. I run an 87* thermostat, and fully heat soaked after multiple hard runs my coolant temp rest at 86*, which to me is an indication that the stat is working properly and the cooling capacity is great. Once the thermostat reaches 87* and opens, the increased cooling of the radiator quickly drops the overall temp and the thermostat closes again. This cycle repeats itself over and over and that's why the system is operating right under 87*.

I bet when I introduce the 82* thermostat to the mix (as long as the new radiator is efficient enough to cool below that temperature) my soaked terminal temp will be 81* .


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Malant said:


> Looking forward to those direct port nozzles to! Scott at USRT is VERY interested in them as well.
> 
> -John


I got a missed called from my guy yesterday, so I'm going to call him today. Hopefully he has some good news and I can get all of you guys going with some custom nozzles


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I got a missed called from my guy yesterday, so I'm going to call him today. Hopefully he has some good news and I can get all of you guys going with some custom nozzles


Sweet! What pressure are those nozzles rated at 30CC for? 220psi? 250psi?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Malant said:


> Sweet! What pressure are those nozzles rated at 30CC for? 220psi? 250psi?


Exact rating is 35 cc @ 150 psi


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

An interesting observation that resulted from this project is my overall timing curve. It was a bit puzzling at first that my timing curve was sustained higher now from peak torque to peak power (bottom of the curve, which BTW should be the area of interest as opposed to what's happening at redline). What was making this improved timing curve even more puzzling is that I made absolutely zero software changes.

So where is the ability to sustain more timing at peak load comming from (especially when my IAT aren't lower than before because water injection has been turned off)? Well, it came to me after chatting with DougLobue about timing advance, since we both run on E85 and he's looking to optimize his timing using my car as a benchmark. The answer is *coolant temperature*. 

Just like IAT, coolant temperature can limit how much timing is allowed overall. I am still on stock ECU with a generic flash and Unisetting tweaks, so I have no way to alter the timing VS coolant temperature map (conveniently that particular map is open in maestro). It is the 6-7 degree temp reduction that the radiator upgrade created, that placed me in different load cells that simply allowed more timing. Pretty cool that the ECU does that by itself!

I also had a good discussion via PM with a very respected and knowledgable tuner about the timing limits on the 1.8t. Since I seem to be the only one brave enough to push the advance that far with any kind of reliability, his question/concern was how close was I to destructive cylinder pressures and pumping losses? As far as I can tell, the cylinder head design allows it and I don't think I've seen MBT yet (the fact that I'm not limited by fuel plays an important role also). So far, I've not seen any TQ drop or increased EGT to indicate that I'm approaching the red zone. The guys at autospeed seems to think the same also from their experiments, I'm quoting one of their article on the subject (obviously, the statement is without having fuel as a limiting factor):

_*From peak torque through to peak power, a modified naturally aspirated engine should increase in ignition advance to 36-40 degrees, a boosted factory turbo car should be running around 25-28 degrees
*_

I am going to bring water injection back into the equation today and report my findings. Stay tuned!


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The answer is *coolant temperature*.


Why do you think I run an 82* thermostat?  From everyone I've spoken with on the subject, the 1.8T starts seeing pumping losses around 28* BTDC on stock cams. How concrete that is, I don't know.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Why do you think I run an 82* thermostat?  From everyone I've spoken with on the subject, the 1.8T starts seeing pumping losses around 28* BTDC on stock cams. How concrete that is, I don't know.


 I've heard that number tossed around as well but don't give it much importance because I've never seen what it is based on. Another thing also is that it doesn't specify where in the rev range that the magic number becomes the limit, and we both know that pumping loss at 3k is much different than pumping loss at 7k. 

I have a brand new 82* thermostat that I will give a try when I have enough data for a good baseline.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I did some more testing with the car, but this time with the direct port water injection as my tested variable. The only real way to do that is by taking the AWIC offline (I simply unplugged the water pump). The following snapshots are with the 4 direct port nozzles and a single 1 Gal/Hr nozzle in the pipe before the TB. 

Theoretically, with enough water volume on the pre-TB nozzle, IAT should be kept in check even without anything else to help cool the air charge. It turned out that the single 1 Gal/Hr is not up to the task and I'm going to bump that to 3 Gal/Hr and see where that takes me (maybe a twin pre-TB nozzles is the ticket). IAT was rising steadily at full boost and not able to event keep the air charge temp constant. 

*4th gear pull* 











*3rd gear pull* 












*2nd gear pull* 












*Part throttle drive 15 min drive*


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Too much delta T.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Too much delta T.


 Well, the temperature delta (difference between final and initial for those not initiated with the lingo) was to be expected when you take into consideration that there is no intercooling and a single 1 Gal/HR nozzle in charge of lowering the air charge before reaching the sensor. 

Hopefully we can get that delta to shrink to 0 with more volume injected pre-TB, wich would also guarantee substantial drop in IAT under load when the AWIC is back in the mix. To me, the experiment was a succes because it showed me what the water injection is doing and allows me to optimize it (if I had the AWIC on at the same time, I would never be able to isolate the effect of each system).


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I understand your point, but with no cooling going on from the AWIC, the charge temp will be higher which will help the vaporization of the injection. Adding the AWIC back in the mix will lower the charge temp and may cause the larger volume of w/m injection to not vaporize as well. I have no experience here but would verify that no pooling/puddling/etc is occuring once both are functioning.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

No problem there, I have over a decade of playing around with water injection and was a user when everyone was still using boost as their pressure source to atomize the injection. With hundreds of psi and adjustable duty available nowadays with the pumps, bad atomization is only a concern with very large nozzles ( 10+ Gal/Hr), or bad nozzle location. 

With hundreds of WI users running mega big FMIC, a lower charge temperature issue would have been known. I have also recorded full efficiency on my water injection systems at low charge temp in the NY winter (I'm talking single digit charge temp). 

My only concern is how much bigger (or volume) I need to go with my pre-TB injection before having to do a twin nozzle setup. A twin nozzle is pretty easy but I'm limited with space now with the short piping, unless I do a nozzle before the cooler core (something I was trying to avoid as it potentially reduces or negate the effect of the cooler).


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Charlie_M said:


> That's a *switch* (well, OK a pair of switches), not a sensor. Contacts are open or closed depending on temperature, and the switching temp & hysteresis are built-in.
> 
> You could do what you want a few different ways. Easiest would be to put a manual switch in parallel with the thermoswitch contact, over-riding when you want to turn on the fan. With the switch off, operation would be normal (controlled by the FCM).


 Thanks Charlie for the pointer :beer:, I always thought this thing was sensor that sent a voltage to the FCM. As you pointed out, it's a simple 3-wire switch that can directly activate both fans at low and high speed. Bridging pin 1 and 2 activates the fans at low speed while pin 2 and 3 triggers the high speed on both fans. I simply added a switch with an inline fuse that I can flip at any time to run both fans on high, the best part is that normal operation is retained with the toggle switch in the "off" position. Pretty slick for the AWIC crowd and the track junkies sitting at impound with the motor running. 

*Mount the switch between pin 2 and 3, my 01 AMU had the Type III plug (an inline fuse is recommended)*


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> No problem there, I have over a decade of playing around with water injection and was a user when everyone was still using boost as their pressure source to atomize the injection. With hundreds of psi and adjustable duty available nowadays with the pumps, bad atomization is only a concern with very large nozzles ( 10+ Gal/Hr), or bad nozzle location.
> 
> With hundreds of WI users running mega big FMIC, a lower charge temperature issue would have been known. I have also recorded full efficiency on my water injection systems at low charge temp in the NY winter (I'm talking single digit charge temp).
> 
> My only concern is how much bigger (or volume) I need to go with my pre-TB injection before having to do a twin nozzle setup. A twin nozzle is pretty easy but I'm limited with space now with the short piping, unless I do a nozzle before the cooler core (something I was trying to avoid as it potentially reduces or negate the effect of the cooler).


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Have you logged your results with the direct port and the Awic setup on? Able to keep a consistent IAT? How are the results compared to the ambient temperature? I should be able to do some extensive logging myself in about two weeks when the nozzles are installed and my Awic is up at full efficiency


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Malant said:


> Have you logged your results with the direct port and the Awic setup on? Able to keep a consistent IAT? How are the results compared to the ambient temperature? I should be able to do some extensive logging myself in about two weeks when the nozzles are installed and my Awic is up at full efficiency


 I haven't tested with both yet. I want to optimize each individually before I go with everything together. Right now, I'm not satisfied with the water injection results and will resume testing when I add more volume pre-TB. Once that's done I can proceed to test the full effect of both as a system (finding time to play is my biggest problem right now). 

The results posted for the AWIC by itself was on a 26*C day (it is to be noted that under-hood temp by the filter is usually a few degrees above ambient).


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

How am I just now seeing this thread! 
Your my hero Max!:thumbup:


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

Twopnt016v said:


> How am I just now seeing this thread!
> Your my hero Max!:thumbup:


 from what i have seen 1.8t tech regulars and and the tt mk1 people rarely visit each other's forum :laugh: 
i started coming to this section because of some of the tech stuff max posts here. 
i even tried to use the mk4 forum but after 5 minutes in that place i get pissed off at the tards who ruin their cars


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> How am I just now seeing this thread!
> Your my hero Max!:thumbup:


 Thank you! I got really shocked to see you in these neck of the woods Matt :beer: 



babarber said:


> from what i have seen 1.8t tech regulars and and the tt mk1 people rarely visit each other's forum :laugh:
> i started coming to this section because of some of the tech stuff max posts here.
> i even tried to use the mk4 forum but after 5 minutes in that place i get pissed off at the tards who ruin their cars


 This is what I've gathered as well. There is a handful of cross-dressers, including myself that you'll find regularly posting in both, but that's it. Although there is a good knowledge base here with a core group that knows a lot (tech wise), the demographics is pretty much the opposite. The regulars here find the 1.8t technical topics to be foreign to them and tech guys in the 1.8t section would plain laugh at you if you mention knowledge and TT section in the same sentence. I feel that they are both wrong and pretty much consider both "home".


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I've trolled both for years, the engine is the heart of a car, how can you not be interested?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> I've trolled both for years, the engine is the heart of a car, how can you not be interested?


 Yeah Eric, you're part of the endangered group that I see regularly crossing the line to the 1.8t tech. 

Don't even get me started with the suspension, force induction, and Motorsport sections because they are as important to the car as well and nobody here frequents them but me


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thank you! I got really shocked to see you in these neck of the woods Matt :beer:


 I've clearly have found a new hangout spot:wave::beer:


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yeah Eric, you're part of the endangered group that I see regularly crossing the line to the 1.8t tech.
> 
> Don't even get me started with the suspension, force induction, and Motorsport sections because they are as important to the car as well and nobody here frequents them but me


 suspension tech forum disappoints me its as bad as the mk4 forum 
i frequently read the auto-x forum but i dont post there alot


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yeah Eric, you're part of the endangered group that I see regularly crossing the line to the 1.8t tech.


 I posted there for years (way too many posts), made a lot of friends, but just grew out of it. It lost it's interest to me if you're not shooting for more than 600hp. :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> I posted there for years (way too many posts), made a lot of friends, but just grew out of it. It lost it's interest to me if you're not shooting for more than 600hp. :laugh:


 I always wondered why you weren't posting there. Did you have another stage name Adam?


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> This is what I've gathered as well. There is a handful of cross-dressers, including myself that you'll find regularly posting in both, but that's it. Although there is a good knowledge base here with a core group that knows a lot (tech wise), the demographics is pretty much the opposite. The regulars here find the 1.8t technical topics to be foreign to them and tech guys in the 1.8t section would plain laugh at you if you mention knowledge and TT section in the same sentence. I feel that they are both wrong and pretty much consider both "home".


 I find the 1.8T tech section to be half people asking questions about their stock-ish 1.8T's not working right and the other half shooting for power and doing fun projects. It's not much different than any other forum- here we have guys that do air suspension/bodywork/wheels then we have people trying to build a performance car.



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I always wondered why you weren't posting there. Did you have another stage name Adam?


 Was it "20v newb" :laugh:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I always wondered why you weren't posting there. Did you have another stage name Adam?


 About six of them, and more posts than I'd care to admit. :laugh:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

20v master said:


> I posted there for years (way too many posts), made a lot of friends, but just grew out of it. It lost it's interest to me if you're not shooting for more than 600hp. :laugh:


 I plan on getting laughed at with my small Garrett build, oh well who cares :thumbup: 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I always wondered why you weren't posting there. Did you have another stage name Adam?


 :facepalm: Didn't know 20v was Adam


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## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Lots of good (technical) info here! :thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Tom! I need to call you. :screwy:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

A bit of an update:

I have been chasing issues after issues. First was to get things to hold the 35-37 psi I'm pushing now (not a typo). The power pick up and response make this car feels like an EVO without any exaggeration, but every hose and vacuum line is popping from the pressure. You fix one, go for a run, pop another.

Issue number two is melting the cheap silicone junction pre-cooler. With close to 40* C ambient days in NY lately, the turbo is spitting some real hot air before reaching the core. I have melted two cheap silicones from the local autoparts and need something rated at higher temperature or go with all metal piping with only two silicone junction.

Another problem I'm having, is spark blowout/misfire high in the rev range. I am about to fold and give the TSI/FSI plugs a try. Hopefully they last longer than the OEM revisions I've been killing every season religiously.

I'm hoping to take care of all that today and take the car with DougLoBue to NYR SCCA autocross this weekend to test things out in competition before Waterfest. Just for those (like John) who may be following my nozzle size and placement for the water injection, I ended up using a 1 gal/hr nozzle pre-cooler and a big 7 gal/hour nozzle post-cooler but before the TB. Yes, that's a lot of volume, but the only thing that gave me the results I was looking for with the water injection (I would normally post logs but the misfire/break-up prevented clean pulls all the way to redline).

*Edit*
The scary response came back after I dumped the 710N DV I was running for a little bit. I got a Madmax DV back into the mix and started popping hoses and grinning right away. The 710n was acting like a bleeder, venting my boost away and making me think the rest of the system was up to the task


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## [email protected] (Oct 16, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Just for those (like John) who may be following my nozzle size and placement for the water injection, I ended up using a 1 gal/hr nozzle pre-cooler and a big 7 gal/hour nozzle post-cooler but before the TB. Yes, that's a lot of volume, but the only thing that gave me the results I was looking for with the water injection


Good to know! I will be putting my new manifold with the direct port nozzles in here shortly. I had planned at running a 114cc nozzle pre cooler, 335cc post cooler and 43cc for each runner. All this is at my pump pressure (220PSI) Might prove to be to much but I will adjust the pump pressure if needed.

Glad to hear your making progress! 35-37PSI will blow pretty much everyone in the 1.8T forums minds on a factory ko4 :thumbup::thumbup: Love it!

-John


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Got myself a set of TSI/FSI COP to test out and see if they were hyped or the truth. Cost me a hundred dollars at my local VW dealer. Well, nothing happened after install, the E revisions Hitachi coils they replace, only have a couple of hours of duty total so they were working just fine. I just wasted my money, but at least they look cool. Idle is the same, power is the same, spark blowout at redline is the same. I have a feeling I need new plugs and a new coilpack harness (I saw and fixed a few exposed wires by the plug ends and I'm sure there is more downstream).



*This is what happen when you run a lot of boost on a small turbo and use cheap silicone junctions. They swell under boost and bust from the heat. This one lasted exactly two pulls *












*My TSI/FSI coils, courtesy of my 1.8t community hype*


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Open up the gap on the plugs :thumbup:


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm hoping to take care of all that today and take the car with DougLoBue to NYR SCCA autocross this weekend to test things out in competition before Waterfest.


Good luck to you and Doug this weekend. Let us know how it goes. BTW, let that Mad Max fella know that the "buy now" on the MCPI website isn't working for the DV. :laugh:


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Love to see you pushing the limits, Max! :thumbup: Here's to hoping I can get my car tweaked to 35+PSI on pump :beer:

Change that coilpack harness! I had issues with high RPM/boost blowout and coilpacks going bad, and replaced the harness with this one, which solved all my problems.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

18T_BT said:


> Open up the gap on the plugs :thumbup:


Thanks for the input :thumbup: ! Before messing with the 1.8t, I have owned a couple of DSM and a pair of EVOs over the years. Pushing and tuning them all to 30+ psi have thought me that with these kind of cylinder pressure (I'm addicted to timing and water injection as well), any gap bigger than 0.25" is a guaranteed blowout (regardless of the ignition/spark efficiency). I will however test new plugs and open the gap in small increments to find the threshold (will start at .022").



Atomic Ed said:


> Good luck to you and Doug this weekend. Let us know how it goes. BTW, let that Mad Max fella know that the "buy now" on the MCPI website isn't working for the DV. :laugh:


Thanks Ed! I will let the Madmax guy know to bring it to MCPI's attention. PM coming your way :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> Love to see you pushing the limits, Max! :thumbup: Here's to hoping I can get my car tweaked to 35+PSI on pump :beer:
> 
> Change that coilpack harness! I had issues with high RPM/boost blowout and coilpacks going bad, and replaced the harness with this one, which solved all my problems.


35 psi on pump is awesome Jeremy! If I remember correctly that's on 28 series turbo?

I have a feeling that my harness is done from heat and age. I'm hoping that the car will behave and stop breaking-up for Waterfest in a couple of weeks. I will definitely tackle that harness even if new plugs cures the problem for now. How involved was the harness swap?


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

35PSI on pump with WMI and 10:1 compression is  

That car must absolutely HAUL.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Hehe, there's a misunderstanding - I'm at 28-29PSI on 94 octane without meth, and no knocking so far. I am _hoping_ to get to 35PSI once I get the meth back on and everything tweaked.

Max, I'm running an HTA3076 (purportedly 59 lbs/min).


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thanks for the input :thumbup: ! Before messing with the 1.8t, I have owned a couple of DSM and a pair of EVOs over the years. Pushing and tuning them all to 30+ psi have thought me that with these kind of cylinder pressure (I'm addicted to timing and water injection as well), any gap bigger than 0.25" is a guaranteed blowout (regardless of the ignition/spark efficiency). I will however test new plugs and open the gap in small increments to find the threshold (will start at .022").
> :


Im still fighting the spark blow out myself:banghead:. Dropped the gap down to .024 with no luck. I'm gonna reduce it down to .022 and give it a shot. After that I am going to replace the harness even though it still looks good.... Keep us posted if you catch a break!:beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> Im still fighting the spark blow out myself:banghead:. Dropped the gap down to .024 with no luck. I'm gonna reduce it down to .022 and give it a shot. After that I am going to replace the harness even though it still looks good.... Keep us posted if you catch a break!:beer:


Matt, today I dropped my gap to


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Matt, today I dropped my gap to


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## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Matt, today I dropped my gap to


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Charlie_M said:


> Maybe it's time to try an external crank trigger? You guys are putting down a lot of torque, and my pet theory is the crank toothed wheel is seeing torsional vibration, enough that the ECU loses lock (PLL) on the crank signal at certain RPM/torque levels.
> 
> IMHO it's the same vibration that causes exploding 60-2 toothed wheels.
> 
> There've been a few posts in the 1.8T forum with really similar problems, where power just drops out, then picks up again at a higher RPM. They were strokers, which makes the problem worse.


Some good points as usual Charlie, the problem for me would be that such a mod is illegal in my racing class.

I am also positive that the coil harness has failed. In anticipation of replacing it, I decided to investigate the condition of the OEM coil harness. This is what I was dealing with this whole time, killing coil packs and breaking up under high load.

*The problem ranged from fried connections to badly broken insulation and exposed wires. The wires were also very hard from age*


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Max- I do have a harness:

It was wrapped in fiberglass wire wrap and aluminum tape haha


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Perfect Doug! I'll grab it from you and have it in before racing time next Sunday. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Update, I worked on the car all day yesterday as I was determined to solve my "misfire" that would make the car break up by 5500 rpm and have the car ready for battle at Waterfest next weekend.

First, I replace my failing coil harness (thanks Doug for letting me have an extra one he had laying around!). Although I hate doing wiring, and having my soldering iron at the very bottom of my tool chest, I rolled up my skirt and got it done (the harness was for a MK5, so the wire colors were not matching the one it replaced but a bit of labeling and chasing wires got it done).

The car immediately idled better, but when I went for a log the miss was still there :banghead:
So what could it be?

- Checked various gap, ranging from 0.015"-0.040" (fail)
- Indexed the plugs (fail)
- Pressure test and sealed every last leaks (fail)
- Checked and tested OEM pump life (fail)
- Checked inline pump life (fail)
- Checked all 4 injector life and operation (fail)

At this point it is 11 PM and decide to strap the laptop to go driving and logging to find what it could be. Vagcom is your best friend and everyone tweaking their cars should own and learn how to use one. 

Checked injector duty cycles and I was peaking 19 ms at 5000 rpm. Tried lowering timing advance to base curve didn't improve anything. Then finally, logging my fuel trims gave me my 
red flag. Double digit correction for a rich condition, Bingo!!!

Still didn't know what caused it but at least I knew what was going on. Drove back to the house and started checking possible causes and quickly found that I had a 4.5 bar fuel pressure regulator in the rail. With all the surgery I did in the car with the project, I had everything out including the stupid FPR. 
When putting the car back together, I grabbed a 4.5 bar one instead of the 3 bar that I needed. 

4.5 bar is 65 psi and our OEM fuel rail is tested to go static at around 90 psi. So 90-65= 25 psi left for boost (I run upward of 35 psi now). So it all made sense, I was running terribly rich (E85 hates a rich mixture) most of the time, and was going lean up-top because the rail was running out of flow at higher loads. 

Swapped the 3 bar FPR, went for a few runs to confirm and feel good about myself after wasting an entire day, and she's back to normal. Clean powerband to redline in all gears... car is ready for Waterfest. In second gear, the car is scary and going sideway even with the huge race rubber, I can't wait to get it on dyno in two weeks (if I don't blow something before hand )

Logs to follow!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

This is what I was pulling consistently last night once the car was free of issues. Both water injection and AWIC were active, and ambient temperature was about 30* C (even more by the filter location). I am very happy with the result since IAT was rising only 3-4* C above the temperature outside. With some ice in the AWIC, I could really predict sub-ambient temperatures at the track.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

isnt ice forbidden in street prepared?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

babarber said:


> isnt ice forbidden in street prepared?


Yes, forbidden at SCCA national tours and ProSolo events (I had to drink some hot distilled water at a Pro to convince a competitor that there was no meth involved :screwy . That's maybe 3-4 times a year for me on a full campaign which is something I haven't been able to do since the birth of my son. All bets are off at most local events that often carry their own sets of rules. 

My local SCCA (NYR) doesn't care and hold unconventional event like one called mirrorkhana. Course is looped back into a circuit, two cars are paired starting at a different spot, the first one to complete a full lap wins. Winner moves on until he/she is knocked out (serious hotlapping), and last year I had to retire after beating 7-8 cars twice. This type of events or unlimited runs at test and tunes is what the ice idea is for, and what inspired the project documented in this thread


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Glad to hear that you got it all sorted out. You've got me wondering if I shouldn't take a hard look at my harness. Crazy numbers!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> Glad to hear that you got it all sorted out. You've got me wondering if I shouldn't take a hard look at my harness. Crazy numbers!


Yeah ED, with our cars starting to age, it is becoming a must to investigate hidden problems like a failing coilpack harness. For all I know, the well documented high failure rate of the coil packs is to a great percentage due to failing harnesses that stress the COP to prematurely let go.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

WOW @ that timing curve. Nasty! :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> WOW @ that timing curve. Nasty! :thumbup:


Thank you, it does feel nice when paired with 35+ psi! Can't wait to see what she does on the rollers


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Curious Max, when you're using your TT for daily driving, what is your setup? Boost? timing?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> Curious Max, when you're using your TT for daily driving, what is your setup? Boost? timing?


The same! I have to admit I haven't put as many miles on her as I used to, but she's rocking that "nasty" boost and timing reliably at all time. :beer:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Wow Max, that harness is horrible. No wonder you were breaking up. And Doug, nice job on that harness wrap job. Good to hear your running right Max. We need our 1.8t Ko4 rep to be running strong:beer: 

Max what charge pipe elbow hose are you running? Is that a forge?


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The same! I have to admit I haven't put as many miles on her as I used to, but she's rocking that "nasty" boost and timing reliably at all time. :beer:


Well this is the best part of your story so far! Good to see it's not a garage queen, only to be pulled out for race days.

'bout done with my build. I was scheduled for some dyno time last Monday and the dyno broke down the Friday before. This is the second dyno to break right in front of my dyno day. I'm out of dynos in my area to go to.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


> Wow Max, that harness is horrible. No wonder you were breaking up. And Doug, nice job on that harness wrap job. Good to hear your running right Max. We need our 1.8t Ko4 rep to be running strong:beer:
> 
> Max what charge pipe elbow hose are you running? Is that a forge?


Well, the break up problem ended up being the wrong FPR that was making my stock fuel rail go static with all the boost I run. The failed harness definitely was the culprit for my coilpacks high rate of failure (I am pretty sure failing harnesses play a big role in the bad name these coils have in the 1.8t world).

The elbow is a 90 silicone reducer that I picked up at my local hydraulic hose store. I was growing tired of wrestling with OEM ones and having them fall apart at the turbo end. Never had a problem since.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> Well this is the best part of your story so far! Good to see it's not a garage queen, only to be pulled out for race days.
> 
> 'bout done with my build. I was scheduled for some dyno time last Monday and the dyno broke down the Friday before. This is the second dyno to break right in front of my dyno day. I'm out of dynos in my area to go to.


Ed, can't wait to hear your numbers once you finally get to the rollers. You have one of the builds that I wanna use as a benchmark to compare my progress.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Did some work to the car to make the setup bullet proof after it performed flawlessly at waterfest (thanks to ED and the crew at FFE for taking care of my crazy projects in a timely manner). 

Welded pre-cooler pipes to eliminate unnecessary silicone couplers, angled water injection bungs in the pipes to cut the 90 degree angle of attack in half, and plumbed a twin DV set to double the CFM bypassed at part throttle, and finally converted to solid engine mounts (metal motor side, delrin tranny per SCCA rules, and solid pendulum). The car feels different, at idle there is a lot more vibration transferred to the chassis, but the drivetrain response and shifting directness is insane (zero slop, power is just sent to the wheels).


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Looking very good Max! You are a trooper for running the solid mounts, I drove around with the FFE Aluminum Inserts for my VF mounts on my motor and trans side, and made aluminum inserts for the dogbone. Man was it FUN but EVERYTHING rattled. Shifting and putting power to the wheels though felt amazing, you could throw it into any gear at any RPM, stomp on the gas at any point, downshift hard, it all felt amazing. You really are connected to the drive train and its glorious, at the expense of in car vibration and the motor sounding like it is strapped into the passenger seat. 

My new heat exchanger came in Friday, along with my reservoir that should take care of the heat soaking I was seeing in my AWIC core. I will try to get these in this week and take some logs, however I have YET to see a single degree of timing pull with my direct port setup @23PSI on 93oct (10:1 comp) :thumbup: 

Direct port really is the way to go. I have been loving every second of it. 

edit: In my quest to clean out my garage of parts that have been accumulating, I do have 2x 3.2L aux radiators, I know you said you were having a hard time finding some. If you wanted to incorporate one into your setup let me know and its yours!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

John, you are definitely right about everything vibrating and rattling (especially at idle) but I'll take the direct feel in this car since it is officially a toy now. I don't think you'll ever see any correction with direct port, in the EVOs we are able to reach MBT at insane boost levels with zero knock. Direct porting is next step in water injection and make the usual single or dual nozzle setup feel basic. 

I will take you up that offer and incorporate the auxiliary rad to the setup. I also need to talk to you on Monday about those solid shifter bushings as a finishing touch to the engine/tranny mount project. Keep us in the loop with your AWIC upgrades and share results when you have them.


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## Malant (Aug 30, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> John, you are definitely right about everything vibrating and rattling (especially at idle) but I'll take the direct feel in this car since it is officially a toy now. I don't think you'll ever see any correction with direct port, in the EVOs we are able to reach MBT at insane boost levels with zero knock. Direct porting is next step in water injection and make the usual single or dual nozzle setup feel basic.
> 
> I will take you up that offer and incorporate the auxiliary rad to the setup. I also need to talk to you on Monday about those solid shifter bushings as a finishing touch to the engine/tranny mount project. Keep us in the loop with your AWIC upgrades and share results when you have them.


 Idle was bad, but not to terrible, between 2300-3400 accelerating EVERYTHING vibrated. If I had no interior and this was a weekend only car I would consider doing it again as the performance aspect of it is just through the roof. 

Thats good to hear on knock, guess I just need to closely monitor my EGT's and keep upping the timing and boost! I know your E85 guys don't really worry about knock as it is almost non-existent. I did not know direct port would get me similar results! 

Give me a call Monday, can get you everything you need. 

I wanted to take some logs this weekend as my fueling setup is back up and optimal. The G2 fuel injectors running at 5bar base and the direct injection have been really delivering some great power, everything smooth! No hiccups. A/f is spot on. Will be documenting everything now that I have the maf issue sorted out. My car is sitting all weekend as I put the RSS's on, reverted back to factory front and rear sways and some new control arms. Getting a nice alignment monday then its time to document! 

-John


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Max - just to rewind to pumps for a minute... I took a little USRT advise & bought a gauge to test the actual pressure that is getting to the meth nozzles. Well my suren'tflo was supposed to be spitting out 250psi but maybe the replacement unit that I got was downgraded because I was only seeing 120psi  The adjustment screw did net me a few more psi but nothing to write home about.

I've since been looking for a consumer supplier for the Pumptec 113c... without results. But I see the unit you're using is rated for 300 gal/hr @ 50psi - maybe this one? http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-marine-utility-water-pump-94639.html I love the price but have you tested the pressure at lower volumes? I would like to see 400psi or so.

Has anyone tried to utilize these nozzles? www.bete.com/products/mw.html

I'm looking to relocate my pre-turbo nozzle as the old location/pressure eroded the compressor wheel. Has anyone tried perpendicular injection right after the MAF?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

All_Euro said:


> Has anyone tried to utilize these nozzles? www.bete.com/products/mw.html



I have done some work for Bete over the years, even funnier as I was just talking to my neighbor who currently works there. 

For spray patterns, Bete produces a very high quality nozzle. They have dialed in spray patterns to a "T". You will not be going wrong by purchasing their products.

:thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

All_Euro said:


> Max - just to rewind to pumps for a minute... I took a little USRT advise & bought a gauge to test the actual pressure that is getting to the meth nozzles. Well my suren'tflo was supposed to be spitting out 250psi but maybe the replacement unit that I got was downgraded because I was only seeing 120psi  The adjustment screw did net me a few more psi but nothing to write home about.
> 
> I've since been looking for a consumer supplier for the Pumptec 113c... without results. But I see the unit you're using is rated for 300 gal/hr @ 50psi - maybe this one? http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-marine-utility-water-pump-94639.html I love the price but have you tested the pressure at lower volumes? I would like to see 400psi or so.
> 
> ...


The 300 gal/hr pump is for my air-to-water intercooler fluid, not my water injection. After too many suren'tflo pump died on me over the years, I learned to stay very far away from those. In the TT, I used a custom Aquatec that [email protected] motorsport had Aquatec make for him before Labonte went out of business. The Pumptec 113 or one of those small Aquamist pumps are nice solutions to the Crapflo pump you're using. I've seen them do all kind of weird things, from low output like yours, to random intermittent duty. 

As far as the pre-turbo injection, I believe that besides the suboptimal location that may be causing erosion, you also need to get nozzles that will give instant atomization at lower pressure. Give [email protected] a call and tell him I sent you (we are currently finalizing a partnership to bring some nice innovation to the water injection world). The nozzle you linked would work with a very high pressure pump, but you'd need to adapt the nozzle to automotive application to include a filter and more importantly an inner pill).

I have some good data to share about the effect of pre-turbo injection. I can't really share anything yet because I want to dyno the car with the pre-turbo injection on/off to quantify what it's doing. I also decided to go with a more user friendly nozzle location after the MAF (bung welded at an angle before a bend) because things are too tight at the compressor inlet. Stay tuned!

*Edit*
Try sending [email protected] an email, he might want to help you source a Pumptec 113 since he runs one in his car.

This is the Aquatec that I ran in the TT


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The 300 gal/hr pump is for my air-to-water intercooler fluid, not my water injection. After too many suren'tflo pump died on me over the years, I learned to stay very far away from those. In the TT, I used a custom Aquatec that [email protected] motorsport had Aquatec make for him before Labonte went out of business. The Pumptec 113 or one of those small Aquamist pumps are nice solutions to the Crapflo pump you're using. I've seen them do all kind of weird things, from low output like yours, to random intermittent duty.
> 
> As far as the pre-turbo injection, I believe that besides the suboptimal location that may be causing erosion, you also need to get nozzles that will give instant atomization at lower pressure. Give [email protected] a call and tell him I sent you (we are currently finalizing a partnership to bring some nice innovation to the water injection world). The nozzle you linked would work with a very high pressure pump, but you'd need to adapt the nozzle to automotive application to include a filter and more importantly an inner pill).
> 
> ...



Haha, right... forgot about your air 2 agua  I'll email Doug though - I'm sure he'll have some helpful tips on how to deal with the extra line pressure too.

Thanks for the tip about Scott too - I'll get in touch with him and once I get all the parts I'll switch pre-turbine injection locations & turbo too... I have a couple K03's lying around.

Just for interest sake; I'm running a ported K03 on K04 software with a 3.0bar MAP sensor @ a 2.0 gal/hr pre-tubine meth spray, 50/50. My compressor wheel has a fair amount of erosion and I'm leaking at the manifold to head... even so, in 3rd gear, I'm seeing 26 psi from 3K - 4K and then taper to 16 psi at 6500 & 15 psi at 7000 rpms.

The pre-turbo injection is well worth it - I'm looking forward to both straightening out my system and seeing yours develop. Keep us posted :thumbup:

*EDIT:* EGT's stay at 700*C as well - can't wait to get things running right


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Time to update this awesome thread!

I did a little experiment to test the effect of the AWIC with the engine/turbo fully warm and IAT completely stabilized (I was asked to do so on another forum to accurately baseline the system's ability). 

The experiment recorded pre-cooler and plenum IAT at idle. There was zero natural airflow and only the fan cooling the fluid. On 65*F (18*C) ambient temperature:

- the plenum IAT stabilized at 95*F (35*C) after gradually going up for about 40 min
- the pre-cooler IAT stabilized at 110*F (43*C) 
- the system effectively removed 15*F or 8*C at idle

I am satisfied with the result since air-to-air intercoolers do nothing for the air charge in a similar test. This test is only a baseline and the system's effectiveness increases as airflow, or the cooler inlet temperature, is higher. For example, the plenum IAT at start up was only 2*F over ambient, and the cooler wasn't removing anything at that point (pre-cooler IAT was nearly matching plenum IAT). As things heated up in the turbo, the IAT kept gradually increasing and so did the cooler's ability to remove heat. 

I have Pre-Turbo injection results coming soon with roller data to see real practical effect at the wheels (or not). :beer:


*Plenum IAT recorded with VCDS and pre-cooler IAT coming from a makeshift temperature probe*


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

:thumbup:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Nice!:thumbup::thumbup:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice demonstration of AWIC benefits in stop and go traffic :thumbup:


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Lookin good Marcus

Regards Lenny

ps still improving my own AWIC as I can


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks guys!

I have been thinking about revamping my air-to-water fluid fill tank (an OEM coolant ball adapted for the job) to incorporate one of those small 12V thermoelectric aquarium chillers. They are small, cheap and effective, capable of removing a good amount of heat from 10 gal of fluid. I think that they could be efficient in an AWIC system with a lot less fluid capacity. Installation would be simple, just drill a hole for the probe, and wire it to a 12V supply with a cabin mounted switch. I would simply leave it off for normal operation and switch it on for spirited driving and racing.

Technical data on the chiller
http://www.marinedepot.com/chillers_coolworks_iceprobe_information-ap.html

*This is what the little thing looks like for those not familiar with them*


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> I have been thinking about revamping my air-to-water fluid fill tank (an OEM coolant ball adapted for the job) to incorporate one of those small 12V thermoelectric aquarium chillers. They are small, cheap and effective, capable of removing a good amount of heat from 10 gal of fluid. I think that they could be efficient in an AWIC system with a lot less fluid capacity. Installation would be simple, just drill a hole for the probe, and wire it to a 12V supply with a cabin mounted switch. I would simply leave it off for normal operation and switch it on for spirited driving and racing.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting idea! I have heard of some guys using the cars A/C unit to cool the water. Never seen one in person yet.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> That is an interesting idea! I have heard of some guys using the cars A/C unit to cool the water. Never seen one in person yet.


Probably possible to use the A/C unit... but I wouldn't want to use the parasitic loss of an engaged A/C compressor to help something that may not directly bump power more the A/C drag. Counterproductive IMO!


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Probably possible to use the A/C unit... but I wouldn't want to use the parasitic loss of an engaged A/C compressor to help something that may not directly bump power more the A/C drag. Counterproductive IMO!


Very true. Why not use an electric pump to run freon coils thru the air/water intercooler reservoir? Like a refrigerator. I am sure all parts could be raided from a keg cooler :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Very true. Why not use an electric pump to run freon coils thru the air/water intercooler reservoir? Like a refrigerator. I am sure all parts could be raided from a keg cooler :laugh:


Essentially that's what this compact thermoelectric aquarium chiller would do without any need to source parts, and come up with a suitable packaging plan. Remember, I'm using it in an OEM coolant ball and the more simple and compact it is, the better. 

Now, in a larger trunk mounted reservoir you could go all out with what you're suggesting. :beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I've had the refrigerant idea from time to time, no reason it shouldn't work it, and if it does its essentially the end-all be-all of intercooling...would there be any issues with power draw? I suppose a remedy would be a vr6 120v alternator over our 90. Could there any possible issues with condensation, or could the freon affect the core materials?

Sorry for the disjointed post :vampire:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

l88m22vette said:


> I've had the refrigerant idea from time to time, no reason it shouldn't work it, and if it does its essentially the end-all be-all of intercooling...would there be any issues with power draw? I suppose a remedy would be a vr6 120v alternator over our 90. Could there any possible issues with condensation, or could the freon affect the core materials?
> 
> Sorry for the disjointed post :vampire:


It has been attempted and discussed many times before on various forums. The predictable conclusion everywhere is that there is way too much CFM of air flowed by a turbocharged car, even really small displacement/turbo applications, for this to work. The consensus is that you'd need a compressor bigger than the engine just to cool that much air moving at such high velocity.

Believe me, if it was a viable option, it would have been exploited long ago. Almost every production forced induction cars already have an A/C compressor, the power vultures would have been all over this long ago, if it was a viable option.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It has been attempted and discussed many times before on various forums. The predictable conclusion everywhere is that there is way too much CFM of air flowed by a turbocharged car, even really small displacement/turbo applications, for this to work. The consensus is that you'd need a compressor bigger than the engine just to cool that much air moving at such high velocity.
> 
> Believe me, if it was a viable option, it would have been exploited long ago. Almost every production forced induction cars already have an A/C compressor, the power vultures would have been all over this long ago, if it was a viable option.



I was thinking more of cooling the water, rather than attempt to cool the air entering the engine due to the pure velocity of the air. But to help keep the water icy cold might help. But for many cases an ice box would work better for quick sessions on the auto-x.

http://www.streettuned.com.au/Force...x20x27cm-Square-with-4-Outlets/prod_1695.html










But I assume you already thought of this


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It has been attempted and discussed many times before on various forums. The predictable conclusion everywhere is that there is way too much CFM of air flowed by a turbocharged car, even really small displacement/turbo applications, for this to work. The consensus is that you'd need a compressor bigger than the engine just to cool that much air moving at such high velocity.
> 
> Believe me, if it was a viable option, it would have been exploited long ago. Almost every production forced induction cars already have an A/C compressor, the power vultures would have been all over this long ago, if it was a viable option.


Yeah, it takes too long to cool the air down with the convection of a coil filled with R12. Air would be moving too fast. You would basically need an air box with coils running all along the outside of the box. Kinda like making your air box into a mini-pony-gegerator:laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I was thinking more of cooling the water, rather than attempt to cool the air entering the engine due to the pure velocity of the air. But to help keep the water icy cold might help. But for many cases an ice box would work better for quick sessions on the auto-x.
> 
> http://www.streettuned.com.au/Force...x20x27cm-Square-with-4-Outlets/prod_1695.html
> 
> ...


Yeah, thought of it but can't happen for my particular setup:

- packaging this, with the space limitations of the engine bay would be problematic (I'm about using all the real estate available to me)

- Although I can use ice for local events, the bigger events like National tours and Pros have the use of ice forbidden. 

- My overflow reservoir is already set up to be easily emptied and filled with ice for local events etc.


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes I had this header tank made for my Bug with a drain point just above the inlet/outlet, so I can
replace with fresh water/ice, pic below. This takes up the space where I battery used to sit









Regards Lenny


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Nice Lenny! That is basically what I have, but using a modified OEM coolant ball. I get so tempted to get a nice rectangular metal reservoir like yours, but the OEM ball keeps it so stealth and helps with fitment. Why do you have your feed and return fittings at the same level? Ideally wouldn't you want them at different levels to keep a circulatory path of the water flow, and avoid the hotter water to be circulated?


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Just kept them low, as I thought water temps would be lower, as heat always rises, but your prob
right Marcus.

Regards Lenny


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> That is an interesting idea! I have heard of some guys using the cars A/C unit to cool the water. Never seen one in person yet.


Are'nt those 120v?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

jettred3 said:


> Are'nt those 120v?


The car's AC? No. 


Ford was the first I know of to implement. 

SuperCooler


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

I was asking are the aquarium chillers 12v or 120v?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It has been attempted and discussed many times before on various forums. The predictable conclusion everywhere is that there is way too much CFM of air flowed by a turbocharged car, even really small displacement/turbo applications, for this to work. The consensus is that you'd need a compressor bigger than the engine just to cool that much air moving at such high velocity.
> 
> Believe me, if it was a viable option, it would have been exploited long ago. Almost every production forced induction cars already have an A/C compressor, the power vultures would have been all over this long ago, if it was a viable option.


Bit late to the party...but I saw an article about 12 months ago that Manufacturers are using refrigerant intercoolers on production cars. Ford is has a patent on the idea. I'll see if I can find the link.

Jeff Hartman ( Turbocharging Performance Handbook ISBN 978-0-7603-2805-7 ) also has a section on refrigerated intercooler systems. Pages 234 thru 239. Synopsis of his findings:

They can be VERY effective when designed correctly. The biggest change has to be in compressor design, as normal Automotive AC compressors are designed to be very inefficient at high rpms as passenger compartment cooling requirements do not increase with vehicle speed nor engine rpm. However, the thermal efficiency of the AC condensor increases markedly with increased vehicle speed. Thus the compressors are purposely designed to have decreased pumping efficiencies as RPM rises.

For racing ( Road Racing, Hillclimbs or Autocross ), what you need is a " Hot Rodded " refrigerant compressor designed to provide minimal cooling during low rpm, no boost or low boost conditions and then increase steadily with increased efficiency as boost and rpm rise. Compressor manufacturers can provide Flow maps, pumping capacities at various pressures and speeds....just like a supercharger. Condenser design needs to be optimized as well, but this is fairly easy to do.

Have a look at the very compact racing AC systems designed by Chevrolet Corvette for their Lemans GT cars. Very lightweight and very efficient because they were designed specifically for long distance Road Racing.

The main reason why refrigerated cooling systems have not been utilized ( on production cars at least ) is cost. Boost levels are simply not high enough to warrant such engineering and cost.

On a race car it depends on what you are doing. You can get as good or better results with an AW inter-coolers in certain scenarios ( IE: Drag Racing ). Particularly if you use an ice chest ( Wet or Dry Ice ). But get away from Drag Racing and Bonneville type cars and into Road Racing...and the advantages of an Air/Water system disappear.

Air to Air still works really well on Road Racing cars because:

1: It is fairly simple and lightweight.

2: It is more than efficient enough at high speeds. You can push a hell of a lot of air through a core at 200mph.

Something to think about. Autocross is a fairly low speed and short event. The advantages of a properly designed refrigerant inter-cooler bears some serious thought.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Ford patent on refrigerant inter-cooling. Circa 1999:

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Patent-Files-Refrigerated-Intercooling/A_110600/article.html

Very informative article on benefits of refrigerant inter-cooling from a study done by the Dublin Institute of Technology in 2010. Note that this system was not optimized for a racing situation. It was still designed for a production vehicle, and was a dual use design as it was used to provide charge cooling and cabin cooling in one package. A dedicated racing refrigerant IC system could should be able to achieve much higher efficiencies.

http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=engschmeccon


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I am plugging this discussion we were having in a different thread because it is keeps thing on topic in here. The replies are in chronological order, in case someone cares to read and follow everything previously discussed.



20v master said:


> I'm awaiting a boost gauge so I can do this also, but after looking at my IAT's and timing advance, there won't be much to gain as timing pull will only go up with more boost. Max won't give full blessing, but I'm still leaning towards an FMIC and low temp thermostat before touching the boost.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> My take:
> Say you add the springs and cap boost ceiling (MBC, EBC or ECU controlled) where they are right now,
> you may be surprised to see that the temps and timing pull remain intact. To meet boost request on flashed car with an actuator that is bleeding/bypassing exhaust pressure, the turbo is forced to spin faster than it needs to (moving operating conditions away from the central efficiency islands of the compressor map). This unwanted pressure bypass can reduce hotside efficiency over 50% if you push things like I do. Since turbine and compressor wheels are attached and constantly at a 1:1 ratio, that's a lot of RPM added on the compressor side to generate the same pressure. The result (because of the higher rpm operation) is a lot higher turbo outlet air temperature.
> 
> ...





20v master said:


> I have a brand new 13 row Mocal unit ready and able.  This would just be on my 180Q DD, so no road racing or auto-x. More than anything, I just want to install the small port SEM manifold, which would mean swapping throttle side, which means FMIC in my line of thinking. :laugh: Yes, I'm aware of the front bumper and airflow limitations, hence the thermostat and potentially the 3 row radiator. Since this is the lowly 180Q, a big/thick FMIC core isn't needed. I just like the simplicity of air to air, don't want chemical cooling on my daily driver, sidemount upgrade won't work with the throttle flip, etc etc. Now the AWIC would fit with the plan, but you'd have to devote some time to helping me source the parts for a solution.  Either way, the 180hp AWP is where I got my 1.8T roots, and I got the stock turbo to a low 13 second 1/4 mile in FWD trim, well before a lot of the options on the market became available. My current setup is much too slow for my tastes, so I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible and uncork some of the potential. First comes the boost gauge, then I'll tinker with the springs on the WG, then see where the IAT/timing pull ends up before I decide anything. :beer:






Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Good to see you have a plan for elevated coolant and oil temperatures. My question is: why does swapping throttle body side excludes the use of SMICs in your line of thinking? Why not upgrade to a dual SMIC setup and enjoy a decent percentage of charge cooling without taxing the oil and coolant?
> You should have the cross tube installed in your car, and I have my SMIC/hoses/brackets on the used stock pile. So, you're basically 90% ready for the SEM/TB swap. Later on, you could just upgrade the passenger SMIC with a larger more efficient Tyrol unit, since that's the one that takes a beating and usually loose all its efficiency from the heat soak.
> 
> If you chose to go AWIC, cloning my setup is a cake... the leg work is already done! To be honest, I don't see why you have chemical cooling off the table when AWIC is still an option. A water injection setup can be super DD friendly if built with that in mind. All you need is a decent size trunk mounted tank (3-4 gal), tune to run on straight H20 like I do, and appropriately sized nozzles (I have custom nozzles made for that purpose, so you're golden). Water is cheap, a 4 gallon tank would give you a nasty range before needing to refill (maybe every 3-5 tanks of gas).
> ...





20v master said:


> Because of the layout of the stock charge piping, the passenger SMIC on the single IC 180 setup has the inlet on the bottom and outlet on the top to feed the passenger side throttle. I'd either need custom piping out of that SMIC outlet to reach the second driver's side SMIC to complete the throttle side swap, or I'd need custom piping from turbo outlet to the inlet of the 225 style passenger side SMIC with the inlet on the top. The second option would allow use of all the OEM piping from the first core to the throttle. However, it would be much easier to have the 180 style OEM piping remain in place to the pancake pipe, then have a custom pipe into a FMIC core and finish the rest to the driver's side throttle. We know the dual SMIC's aren't the most efficient, nor is the piping layout (bends, reductions, etc.). Again, we are talking about my daily driver, so it's not going to get beat on often or for long. The thermostat and oil cooler would satisfy my concerns there.
> 
> As for water injection, a 3-4 gallon tank is going to eat up a lot of the already small hatch space. I do take this car out of town for weekend trips with my lady which requires luggage room. Also, what do you do about sub freezing temps when running straight water? My garage is detached from the house and isn't heated.  Water injection would be the best and easiest way to achieve cooler IAT's and more timing advance, but doesn't solve the problem of routing charge piping to use the SEM and driver's side throttle, so the manifold and chemical cooling are seperate upgrades in the grand scheme.....
> 
> ...


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

So a parts list?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> So a parts list?


So are you dead set on AWIC? It definitely has the most cooling potential out of all the options we're looking at, but the complexity and potential long term longevity issue with the pump doesn't make it the most viable option for true DD. I have not put the pump I'm using to the test, continous duty cycles seen on a daily basis can have a huge bearing on how long these things last (my pump is mounted on rubber insulators but would need some noise insulation as well if I were to recommend it on a daily driver). So let me know if you've made up your mind and I'll put together a list for you.

Personally, I still think your best option is the K04-02X swap, that will bring you up to speed with most of us , and give you more headroom before being on the ragged edge. This will at the same time solve the TB side swap issue and you can run dual SMICs (I have the metal outlet pipe and both SMICs to get you started). Match that with a water injection setup and you got great cooling and a more overall power potential (you know how much I like to have power on tap  ).

As far as what to do with water injection in the cold months, a small amount of denatured alcohol (15% by volume) is enough to keep the mix non-flammable and prevent it from freezing even if we have another ice age. The only issue would be packaging a fluid reservoir big enough to give you acceptable range (I'm sure the engineer in you can make that happen as effectively as I could). 

Let me know how you want to proceed! :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Emailed you some logs, Max. I'm thinking IAT's climb so high/fast that the ECU is closing the throttle. NEED MOAR COOLING!


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Is this the core you're using Max? My only concern is the 3" inlet/outlet. That's kinda large for a K03S. The K04 setup is seeming more and more likely, since I want to put the 02M six speed in my 180Q. It's easier to pull the engine and trans together than just the trans, so it wouldn't be too hard to do it all at once. I do have some year end vacation coming up. :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Emailed you some logs, Max. I'm thinking IAT's climb so high/fast that the ECU is closing the throttle. NEED MOAR COOLING!


There is no doubt about it, your charge cooling need some help! You're spiking over and settling at 55*C on 5-10*C ambient conditions. Something is definitely happening around 5500 rpm, but I don't think the ECU closes throttle (at least not based on IAT). If anything you'd have high timing correction but not the sudden drop of boost that's also reflected by registered mass airflow. 

IMO, something is dumping your boost. It could be several things like your DV, motivated by the N249 if your actual is exceeding the request due to the added spring. It could even be the single spring helping to hold things together up to 5500 rpm, then getting overwhelmed and your turbine pressure gets bypassed. Another possibility is a wonky N75 duty cycle (I've seen all sorts of tuner craziness with N75 duty profiles). 

What you need to do on the logs you'll take later is also do a couple of pulls with TPS, IAT, N75 duty, timing correction vs RPM. This will clear out a few things until you can log boost request vs actual. 

(I'm guessing you're still on the 710N and N249 is in the loop. These two guys are like republicans working to gridlock things in the house, except they do it to your car making power)


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Yes, the vac system is all OEM other than replacing the PCV sytem with silicone and a hardpipe. Torque doesn't allow logging of N75 or timing correction, so both of those will have to wait til I log requested vs actual on boost. No worries, I'm a pro at solo VAG COM logging. It's so much easier when your car has 500hp though, you don't need nearly as much room for single gear runs. :laugh: IAT's and timing are my main concerns now though. EEK they're bad. :thumbdown:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Is this the core you're using Max? My only concern is the 3" inlet/outlet. That's kinda large for a K03S. The K04 setup is seeming more and more likely, since I want to put the 02M six speed in my 180Q. It's easier to pull the engine and trans together than just the trans, so it wouldn't be too hard to do it all at once. I do have some year end vacation coming up. :laugh:


Yes that's the core I use! Might be a bit overkill for a K03, but perfect for the K04-02X ... especially if you plan on making the snail work for its meal ticket. I think at this point the K04 on AWIC is the combo you're leaning on. Too bad you don't seem to want to use the k04 on the 180 motor. I always thought that a 9.5:1 CR 1.8l with a K04 would make the best DD combo without needing to be maxed out on boost to make decent power.

I'll use this post to lay out your parts list (I'll edit it with everything I can find as far as part# etc. when I get home):

*AWIC core:*
Type 19 core is what I used (rated up to 550 CFM and will handle anything a K04 can spit). I like the straight through cores with rectangular end tanks. However the cores with perpendicular in/out are popular with the 1.8t because they simplify routing the piping. 
http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...d=219&osCsid=68f52257709a98811fc3fa8da45d2757

*Heat exchanger:*
Type 115 is a good match to the type 19 core for the range of heat that a K04-02x can generate. You can go bigger than the 115 exchanger but supplying airflow to the entire core becomes more problematic and the demand on fluid flow is increased as well. Personally, I wouldn't use anything bigger than a 115 exchanger unless you have a lot of pump flow or using more than one pump.
http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1113&osCsid=68f52257709a98811fc3fa8da45d2757


*Pump:*


*Fluid reservoir:*
This is where it starts to get tricky, you have to fab mounting for something off the shelf or fab your own reservoir to fit existing mouthing points. Being that it has to be mounted at the highest point in the system, making space for a square tank is harder than using a round tank. That is why I simply modified an OEM VW/Audi coolant ball; fitment is easier and has overflow built in. Most square metal tanks are going to be closed loop and not provide much for fluid heat expansion (adding unnecessary pressure to the system is a not something you should look for when designing the system. 


*Misc bits:*


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I think at this point the K04 on AWIC is the combo you're leaning on. Too bad you don't seem to want to use the k04 on the 180 motor. I always thought that a 9.5:1 CR 1.8l with a K04 would make the best DD combo without needing to be maxed out on boost to make decent power.


If I install the K04 setup, it would be on the 9.5:1 AWP block. The AMU from my black car has bent valves on the head. I don't want to open the motor, but I do have a set of 19mm drop in IE rods laying around. So many decisions.......


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> If I install the K04 setup, it would be on the 9.5:1 AWP block. The AMU from my black car has bent valves on the head. I don't want to open the motor, but I do have a set of 19mm drop in IE rods laying around. So many decisions.......


Dooooo it! The rods are such a peace of mind, and allow you to roll up your squirt to optimize things that normally you'd shy away from.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Bigity Bump!! Max you need to start using image shack to host your images so they hang around longer. All photos you post are long gone...bummer 
I use image shack and copy and paste the forum code and my pics stay up for years... Hope all is well with you!! 
By the way I've been running the green Klean Strip now for a week or so and like it. I ran some SLX before the green and had good luck with it also. Are you able to find the green in a gallon can? So far I can only find the small green cans. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> Bigity Bump!! Max you need to start using image shack to host your images so they hang around longer. All photos you post are long gone...bummer
> I use image shack and copy and paste the forum code and my pics stay up for years... Hope all is well with you!!
> By the way I've been running the green Klean Strip now for a week or so and like it. I ran some SLX before the green and had good luck with it also. Are you able to find the green in a gallon can? So far I can only find the small green cans. :beer:


 Matt, I do have an imageshack account but it's maxed out, mostly with EVO and Saturn pics. I need to either upgrade it or start deleting old junk (the EVO and Saturn guys won't be happy about that ). Tech support at Photobucket are also trying to restore the pics for me (the albums are intact but links are screwed), so I'll see what comes out of it first! 

The green SLX alcohol is the bomb! No methanol or other harmful crap like the regular blue! Most Home Depot only carry it in the small container. To find it in gallons, you have to go to paint stores (the main Sherwin Williams store is where I get it locally, but the smaller branches don't have it on the shelves). :beer:


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Google Picasa Albums, Max - hot-linking for any size, and no storage or bandwidth limits for images below 2048 x 2048 pixels (and videos less than 15 minutes)!


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Matt, I do have an imageshack account but it's maxed out, mostly with EVO and Saturn pics. I need to either upgrade it or start deleting old junk (the EVO and Saturn guys won't be happy about that ). Tech support at Photobucket are also trying to restore the pics for me (the albums are intact but links are screwed), so I'll see what comes out of it first!
> 
> The green SLX alcohol is the bomb! No methanol or other harmful crap like the regular blue! Most Home Depot only carry it in the small container. To find it in gallons, you have to go to paint stores (the main Sherwin Williams store is where I get it locally, but the smaller branches don't have it on the shelves). :beer:


 Thanks for the heads up Max!:beer:


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Are there any "off the shelf" w/m nozzles that will work for the direct port setup? I have read the majority of this thread, and have only seen the talk of your custom ones. I also plan to have one nozzle before the a/w core.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> Google Picasa Albums, Max - hot-linking for any size, and no storage or bandwidth limits for images below 2048 x 2048 pixels (and videos less than 15 minutes)!


 Have one of those too Jeremy, used it a lot in my CRX days (yeah, I've been around )! Can't for the life of me remember the screen name or password, if nothing get solved with photobucket (really liked the mobile app) I might have to go back. Thanks my man!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> Are there any "off the shelf" w/m nozzles that will work for the direct port setup? I have read the majority of this thread, and have only seen the talk of your custom ones. I also plan to have one nozzle before the a/w core.


 Depends on what your definition of "work" is! Personally I wouldn't use anything bigger than 50 cc/min at some critical areas. As usual, I hooked up with someone in the community to make things happen for you guys. Give Scott at USRT a call and tell him you need direct port nozzles, and mention that the Doctor sent you! :beer:


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## jettred3 (Aug 5, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Depends on what your definition of "work" is! Personally I wouldn't use anything bigger than 50 cc/min at some critical areas. As usual, I hooked up with someone in the community to make things happen for you guys. Give Scott at USRT a call and tell him you need direct port nozzles and the Doctor sent you! :beer:


 I have these nozzles they rock


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jettred3 said:


> I have these nozzles they rock


 I'm glad you guys are enjoying them! I don't regret doing the leg work that made them possible for the community. They open a whole new world of possibilities! :beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

I get a week off after Christmas and I'm gonna do my direct port set-up. I saw you posting about some top secret intake mani stuff?...The question is are still digging you nozzle location in the manifold on your set-up? Just thought Id ask before drilling and tapping my manifold. I'll probably drill and tap a stock manifold first and then if all goes well move the set-up to my gasket matched opened up ABD manifold....


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> I get a week off after Christmas and I'm gonna do my direct port set-up. I saw you posting about some top secret intake mani stuff?...The question is are still digging you nozzle location in the manifold on your set-up? Just thought Id ask before drilling and tapping my manifold. I'll probably drill and tap a stock manifold first and then if all goes well move the set-up to my gasket matched opened up ABD manifold....


No worries Matt, if I had discovered a flaw or a better placement, I would have posted! The top secret stuff is really about going to town with intake manifold testing. Adam did the flow test on them years ago (the one everyone uses as a reference), I plan on teaming up with him and doing something similar but on the dyno. I don't want to give too much details before things get crazy ... as you know it's a touchy subject and some vendors don't like raw unbiased data about their products!


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> No worries Matt, if I had discovered a flaw or a better placement, I would have posted! The top secret stuff is really about going to town with intake manifold testing. Adam did the flow test on them years ago (the one everyone uses as a reference), I plan on teaming up with him and doing something similar but on the dyno. I don't want to give too much details before things get crazy ... as you know it's a touchy subject and some vendors don't like raw unbiased data about their products!


Word:thumbup:


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## EuroSpic_TT (Apr 24, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yes that's the core I use! Might be a bit overkill for a K03, but perfect for the K04-02X ... especially if you plan on making the snail work for its meal ticket. I think at this point the K04 on AWIC is the combo you're leaning on. Too bad you don't seem to want to use the k04 on the 180 motor. I always thought that a 9.5:1 CR 1.8l with a K04 would make the best DD combo without needing to be maxed out on boost to make decent power.
> 
> I'll use this post to lay out your parts list (I'll edit it with everything I can find as far as part# etc. when I get home):
> 
> ...


just curious on what pump u run with your setup, i plan on going the same route very soon after reading mostly all of these 6 pages.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

EuroSpic_TT said:


> just curious on what pump u run with your setup, i plan on going the same route very soon after reading mostly all of these 6 pages.


I run this utility pump in my car! It's cheap, flows enough and readily available. The downside is that it's louder than you'd want in a true daily driver, and longevity at extended continous duty is unknown. Without some good insulation for the noise I wouldn't recommend it if you want a quiet car (it sounds like I have supercharger or two walbro pumps under the hood).

Other suitable choices would be the Bosh cobra pump (about a $100 and used by OEM manufacturers). Or one of the Meziere units (a bit more expensive but you can pick and choose your desired flow rate). 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Inline pump arrived today!
> 
> This little sucker is perfect for the job:
> -Self priming
> ...


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

A little off of the ic subject, I was thinking of the direct port w/m setup. Is it possible to use a fuel rail type inlet for the nozzles? I am trying to get a plan together for an intake manifold, with plenum mounted nozzles that I would like to feed without using the individual lines running into them. Probably use fuel rail stock cut to size and adapted to connect directly to the nozzles themselves. 

Just looking to hear your thoughts.:beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> A little off of the ic subject, I was thinking of the direct port w/m setup. Is it possible to use a fuel rail type inlet for the nozzles? I am trying to get a plan together for an intake manifold, with plenum mounted nozzles that I would like to feed without using the individual lines running into them. Probably use fuel rail stock cut to size and adapted to connect directly to the nozzles themselves.
> 
> Just looking to hear your thoughts.:beer:


Without some type of pressure regulator you'd have less pressure at the end of the rail than the inlet, aka less flow to the last cylinder.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> A little off of the ic subject, I was thinking of the direct port w/m setup. Is it possible to use a fuel rail type inlet for the nozzles? I am trying to get a plan together for an intake manifold, with plenum mounted nozzles that I would like to feed without using the individual lines running into them. Probably use fuel rail stock cut to size and adapted to connect directly to the nozzles themselves.
> 
> Just looking to hear your thoughts.:beer:


Besides what Adam said, it would make the project more complicated and less compact. One thing that could be done though is have two feed lines coming on each end of the rail to supply the nozzles more evenly. Not that it's impossible, but I would go the more conventional way. Another thing to take into consideration is the more fluid volume you have post solenoid(s), the more chance you have of having fluid siphoned in such a high vacuum environment when you're not injecting.


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Cool. The fluid volume after the solenoid was the main issue I was coming up with as well. The real reason for the thought was only to give it a more appealing look anyway. A simple cover with handle that job then. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> Cool. The fluid volume after the solenoid was the main issue I was coming up with as well. The real reason for the thought was only to give it a more appealing look anyway. A simple cover with handle that job then. :beer:


Oh, there are much more appealing ways to set it up than how I have it (to me it's all about practicality and easy access for on-the-fly diagnosis/repair at the track). I've seen people nicely tuck away the distribution block and supply lines, and use pretty, colorful lines that matches the theme or their bay etc - So you have endless possibilities to bring form to this, just not what I prioritized in my build but it could definitely look better! :beer:


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## AudiNick5000 (Dec 7, 2012)

Max,
Where did you get the aluminum connector for the oem boost sensor? Or did you have that custom milled?

Also worth mentioning, I got one of the 115 heat exchangers from frozenboost.com and it's too big to fit in the driver’s side SMIC location. I'm assuming you actually got the 109 or something smaller than the 115. Just a warning to others, if you want to mount it in the SMIC location, don't get the 115, or at least I couldn’t get it to fit. 
I'm going to try my original idea and use one of the stock SMIC's as the H2O heat exchanger. We'll see how it holds up.

Edit: Found the MAP sensor flange. 42DraftDesign


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

AudiNick5000 said:


> Max,
> Where did you get the aluminum connector for the oem boost sensor? Or did you have that custom milled?
> 
> Also worth mentioning, I got one of the 115 heat exchangers from frozenboost.com and it's too big to fit in the driver’s side SMIC location. I'm assuming you actually got the 109 or something smaller than the 115. Just a warning to others, if you want to mount it in the SMIC location, don't get the 115, or at least I couldn’t get it to fit.
> ...


Nick, that's correct! The type 115 will not fit in the stock location without some trimming (I was able to make it fit with some trimming and having it rest at a bit of an angle). The type 109 at 7.5" X 11.5" would be the perfect fit for the OEM location since it's matches the size of the SMIC with end tanks. :thumbup:


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Did some work to the car to make the setup bullet proof after it performed flawlessly at waterfest (thanks to ED and the crew at FFE for taking care of my crazy projects in a timely manner).
> 
> Welded pre-cooler pipes to eliminate unnecessary silicone couplers, angled water injection bungs in the pipes to cut the 90 degree angle of attack in half, and plumbed a twin DV set to double the CFM bypassed at part throttle, and finally converted to solid engine mounts (metal motor side, delrin tranny per SCCA rules, and solid pendulum). The car feels different, at idle there is a lot more vibration transferred to the chassis, but the drivetrain response and shifting directness is insane (zero slop, power is just sent to the wheels).


This one!!!:beer:


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## wheezzy (Feb 11, 2004)

I'm so out of the loop...but I'm catching up. I'm on page 2 so far, lol!


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## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Badass thread. Sub'd for reading purposes later. I'm interested in direct meth injection in my IE manifold in the future.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Finished my CC system now and went for a larger heat exchanger..



Steve


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> I thought you had installed the T'stat a while back, no?





20v master said:


> It certainly can't hurt. :thumbup:


I've had nothing but bad luck with aftermarket thermostats :banghead: :banghead:

After swapping my perfectly fine OEM stat that gave me great results paired with the upgraded radiator, I installed a brand new 82c thermostat hoping to further improve the terminal coolant temp (fully heat soaked). Well, the result is a step backward once again. I tried in the past with a used unit but wanted to give a brand new one a chance. 

I'm seeing coolant temp as high as 93* C now after hot-lapping the car. On top of that, the annoying delay in getting the car to operating temperature came back. It takes way too long to get to temp for my use (I'm not going to sit at the track loading the engine for minutes just to get to safe operating temperature). I'm aware that the problem could be a defective new 82C Stat partially sticking, but when it's such a PITA to pull the housing, I'm done with it. A OEM unit for the application is going back (too bad, like a big dummy, I trashed mine when I swapped :screwy.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I've had nothing but bad luck with aftermarket thermostats :banghead: :banghead:
> 
> After swapping my perfectly fine OEM stat that gave me great results paired with the upgraded radiator, I installed a brand new 82c thermostat hoping to further improve the terminal coolant temp (fully heat soaked). Well, the result is a step backward once again. I tried in the past with a used unit but wanted to give a brand new one a chance.
> 
> I'm seeing coolant temp as high as 93* C now after hot-lapping the car. On top of that, the annoying delay in getting the car to operating temperature came back. It takes way too long to get to temp for my use (I'm not going to sit at the track loading the engine for minutes just to get to safe operating temperature). I'm aware that the problem could be a defective new 82C Stat partially sticking, but when it's such a PITA to pull the housing, I'm done with it. A OEM unit for the application is going back (too bad, like a big dummy, I trashed mine when I swapped :screwy.



Max, I think I have a good stock one I pulled out. Let me check and you cover the :beer: and its yours :laugh:

You and Adam almost have me convinced to upgrade the radiator  Shall see after this next event.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Max, the one I had in my garage is a 50 121 113 C unit. It is marked as an AWM code thermostat.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Max, I think I have a good stock one I pulled out. Let me check and you cover the :beer: and its yours :laugh:
> 
> You and Adam almost have me convinced to upgrade the radiator  Shall see after this next event.


The radiator upgrade is a must for us taking the cars to the track or anyone pushing them harder than normal for extended time.



[email protected] said:


> Max, the one I had in my garage is a 50 121 113 C unit. It is marked as an AWM code thermostat.


Cool, I'll ley you know if I need it by the weekend. I may have something laying around in the garage. :beer:


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The radiator upgrade is a must for us taking the cars to the track or anyone pushing them harder than normal for extended time.


Indeed. Should be interesting this weekend as forecast is 85-90 deg....At least the track will be nice and sticky.



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Cool, I'll ley you know if I need it by the weekend. I may have something laying around in the garage. :beer:



Sounds good. Let me know by tomorrow. I am heading out at 4pm to Lime Rock for the weekend, so I can ship it out if need be.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

So this past weekend the ambient air temps on Friday were 90+ and Saturday were 85 deg F. I was seeing 182-200 for coolant temps. With the stock radiator and a low temp thermostat. Oil cooler is placed in the center with the coolant heat exchanger removed from the system to just run a thermostatic sandwich plate. 

:thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

This weekend I got a chance to do some testing with my air charge temperature in preparation for a weekend of racing, and some changes made to the AWIC setup. My water injection system pump took a crap recently, so I replaced it and did some baseline loging to see where I am in 30*C ambient temperature with 32*c temperature under the hood (recorded by the air filter). This is with the 4 directly ported nozzles and a single 35cc nozzle plumbed before the TB. The test was done at 30 psi of boost at various loads and a couple of pulls in 4th gear. The charge temps went above 50*c with a pretty large temperature delta. 











I then changed my pre-TB nozzle from 35 cc/min to a much bigger 3 gal/hr nozzle. Things improved a little bit, but not enough to satisfy me. Still seeing 47*c peak air temp. 










I finally decided to go back with testing of a pre-IC nozzle plumbed 6" before the core (despite all the theories that it's not good and reduces the effect and potential of the intercooler). The results are substantial with only a small 35 cc/min nozzle and no other variable (same evening, same boost, same stretch of road). With a peak of 45*c I was moving in the right direction and proved that theories against pre-cooler nozzles are just garbage. 










Next, I decided to test a 1 gal/hour nozzle before the IC core. The result is another round of improvement, I was very happy with what I got from the few changes, a few hours of plumbing/swapping nozzles, and logging sessions. My highest 4th gear pull was at 39*c peak! With engine bay air temp by the filter being at 32-34*c, I couldn't ask for more (especially coming from charge temp peaking over 50*c). 

This shows that there is always room for improvement (even in elaborate setups like mine), and theories do not always translate into results in the real world. :beer:


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Well done Max! Keeping it close to ambient temperatures is very well done. When you were looking at ice box setups, PWR does have some that might help fit the bill.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Well done Max! Keeping it close to ambient temperatures is very well done. When you were looking at ice box setups, PWR does have some that might help fit the bill.


 Noah, as of this weekend I am running a trunk mounted keg for added system fluid capacity, and my front expansion tank (with a bottom drain) serves as an ice box that can be emptied out and replaced with ice or ice-water. I will have a post with before/after results with ice added to the system. I looked into the PWR tanks and the Frozenboost ones, but decided to keep it "grassroots" and use the cool keg that Joe send me a long time ago. 

Everybody at the track were asking what I have going on back there, my answer to them: "a brother doesn't drive well without beer on tap".


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

lol


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Everybody at the track were asking what I have going on back there, my answer to them: "a brother doesn't drive well without beer on tap".


 :laugh: Good stuff Max, nice results.


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## bb-tt (Jul 2, 2013)

*Wire Wrap*

Max, 
Know this late now but could still help, could try wrapping new harness in Roundit 2000, it is a nomex wire harness wrap will protect the harness from heat and prevent chaffing. Pretty easy to install also. 


www.aepetsche.com/english/AE-Petsche.../roundit 2000 nx.pdf‎


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

opcorn:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Just a thought i had. Using the stock pipe that connects the twin side mounts together on the 225; would one be able to sand that then wrap it in, say copper tubing and possibly drill a few holes through it also to make kind of a custom awic thats in a factory mounting location and would be used with a fmic?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

The saga continues! 

With a new racing class that prohibits the use of chemical cooling and air-to-water intercooling, I had to go with a front mounted intercooler. Having deleted the A/C, I thought the negative effects of blocking flow to the radiator would be neutralized, but it seems that I'm back to square one with the needle moving past the mid point after some good hotlapping. IAT is in check with the FMIC, so is EGT, as well as timing sustained without correction (IAT vs Timing graph below). 

However, the coolant system inefficiencies desperately needed to be looked over and addressed. I already have a 3-row upgraded radiator, lower temp thermostat, deleted weatherstrip by the firewall, and revised/simplified coolant routing that improves overall system flow. What could possibly be the reason for such low coolant efficiency in the TT, when it's not the case in the VWs sharing the engine and cooling system? Well, the answer came to me when I removed the skeleton in my hood for weight reduction. The modified hood gave up a good percentage of its structural rigidity and that's what made me realize what was happening with the TT all along. At any speed over 40 mph, the engine bay pressure becomes so high that it dangerously ballooned the less-rigid hood. It was so bad that I had to stop a logging session and not run the car until I install some safety pins. 

With evidence of that much pressure building in the bay at speed, it became clear that flow through the radiator is severely reduced at speed over 40 mph because the air gets trapped in the bay. The solution is to depressurize the bay enough that the differential of air entering VS air escaping is not as great as it was. 
Call it bad luck, but I had just closed a vent I had cut in my hood for a top mount intercooler project that was aborted because of class legality. So, I rolled up my sleeves and cut another (even bigger) hole in the poor hood. This time it was to test a heat/pressure extractor. This would help depressurize the bay at speed, and allow proper airflow over the IC and radiator. 

I decided to use a Shelby GT500 heat extractor vent, I got the idea from forum member aircooled56 that did the same mod on his track R32. The Ford vent is functional and large enough to allow complete depressurization of the TT bay at speed. The only hard part was to find the most effective location to run it, while taking advantage of the specifics of our engine bay, and low/high pressure zones that exists. After a bit of testing that involved drilling a series of holes in the hood, I located mine over and forward of the manifold plenum.
Simply leaving the pins unlocked and driving the car at speed seems to have cured the ballooning effect. I'm going to log IAT and coolant temperature next to see if there is any improvement. After that, it's time to install an external oil cooler to alleviate the load that it places on the coolant (something that has been on the to-do list for a while). 




IAT vs Timing before the hood extractor vent 













Vent bolted to the hood


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

:thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

IAT and coolant after the hood vent and multiple consecutive pulls. I'm happy that the coolant temp is staying at acceptable levels again with extended hard use, the air charge temperature delta looks pretty good too (although it was a cool 69* ambient night with humidity).


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

I would call that a worthy upgrade. Lower engine bay temps are a plus when you drive your car hard like you do. How far from the front of the hood did you come? Were there any fluid dynamic calculations involved that put that vent right there on the hood or did was somewhere in the front just good enough? opcorn:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chuckmeister87 said:


> I would call that a worthy upgrade. Lower engine bay temps are a plus when you drive your car hard like you do. How far from the front of the hood did you come? Were there any fluid dynamic calculations involved that put that vent right there on the hood or did was somewhere in the front just good enough? opcorn:




I purposely came 7" away from the edge of the hood for the vent. There was no fluid dynamics calculations but the location was carefully chosen to maximize as much airflow out of radiator. There is tons of pressure building under the hood starting at around 30 MPH, and by 40 mph (before I added the hood pins) the hood was not far from breaking in half. The whole front 1/3 of the hood is a high pressure zone and you can't go wrong venting in that area. Ideally, you want to catch and extract as much as possible from the air coming up off of the radiator and hitting the wall created by the manifold runners and plenum. That's what I went for with my extracting vent placement, and my back-of-the-envelope calculations seems to have worked as planned. 


*Distance from the hood leading edge *











*Here you can see the where the extractor is positioned to collect air coming up from the plenum leading edge*









*​View from the front *


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

I have to agree. Good freaking job :beer:


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## vwdirector (Jan 31, 2006)

Hi, is anyone using a type 118 heat exchanger with 2 fans. Seems like it would fit behind the lower center bumper grill, it measure 26"*7"*2"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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