# MkIV Camber plate list



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list*

Updates:
Thanks to the input from manufacturers and vwvortex users, we now have a catalog of eight different camber plate options and four different upgraded spindle arrangements. Don't give up on the MkIV platform just yet!
Background:
The MkIV front suspension allows toe adjustments only. Minor camber adjustments can be made via shifting the subframe and loosening & re-torquing certain suspension bolts. But from a practical standpoint, camber & caster are fixed. For high-performance driving, especially autocross & track driving, a certain amount of negative camber is required to keep tire wear in check and help maintain cornering grip. Excessive negative camber can reduce grip in straight line and increase tire wear, so more than a degree or two is not recommended for street use. Camber plates allow the driver to customize the camber angle to optimize performance vs tire wear.
Drop spindles and/or modified control arms allow the suspension geometry to be optimized for use with stock height or lowered springs to achieve the best handling. They also modify the shape of the so-called camber curve to keep the tires in contact with the road during the extreme suspension compression caused by hard cornering.
More background info in the MkIV forum
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2004123
As with any modification to your car's suspension, care should be taken to properly train yourself with the new mods on a closed-course race track. These mods can dramatically change the handling of your car and may surprise you in emergency situation if you don't have the proper experience.
Please keep this thread clean and comment on the products if you have experience with them. Note that the products are listed in order of release date, newest items first. For unlisted products, please supply the following information:
# Manufacturer
# Part Number
# Website
# Price
# Availability
# Install notes and other info
Sample Photos:
























FRONT CAMBER PLATES

H2Sport - Sport Camber Kit
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1962106
# http://www.h2sport.com
# $295/pair
# Available now
# "The Mounts are black anodized CNC machined billet aluminum utilizing race-quality spherical bearings (mono-balls) that combine to precisely locate the strut-top to the chassis for even better handling. Furthermore, they fit directly into the stock shock tower – no cutting or drilling holes required. Simply remove the stock rubber mounts from your stock or aftermarket suspension, and install our Mounts. " Adds up to -1° camber on each front wheel

H-Sport - Camber plate kit
# Part 30813
# http://www.purems.com
# $359.95/pair
# Available now (low stock)
# Adjustability: -.25 to 1.25 (Using OE Style Coils)
Will not alter ride height. Uses oem bearing. Requires drilling three holes in strut tower.

BildonMotorsport camber plates
# Part #:TAS0271
# http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...S0271
# $198.92/pair
# Available now
# "139mm OD top strut mount as used on the Erickson Motorsport World Challenge GTI! For precise top suspension body location and positive steering geometry. Made from billet aluminum complete with motorsport quality 20mm ID bearing, sleeve nuts and spacers. This eccentric mount is for use with 2.5" (60mm) diameter racing springs. Fits standard inner strut mount position. No cutting needed."

Ground Control camber plate kit:
# SKU #ccpa4
# http://www.ground-control-stor...I=653
# http://home.comcast.net/~steve...rsion
Contact Reflexgti for more info, or order online
# $339-349/pair
# Available for spring/shock, 60mm, 2.25", and 2.5" coilover equipped cars
# Installs without drilling or strut tower modification.
# Uses high grade spherical bearing and special load bearing top hat.
# Two-way, fully independent camber and caster adjustment.
# Approx -1.8° camber gain over OEM. (Test car produced -2.5° camber on each wheel.)
# Replaces all factory hardware from the spring up.
# May drop front ride height by 1/4".
# Ride comfort may be reduced.

SPC/Eibach front camber kit:
# Part# 81340
# http://www.specprod.com/PROD_D...&cmd3
# http://www.prosuspension.com
# http://www.coximport.com/store/EI5-81340K
# http://www.modacar.com/products/Audi/TT/MODACAK
# http://www.nopionline.com
# $126-$170/pair
# available now
# continuously adjustable front camber/caster up to +/- 1.25° on top of OEM spec
# camber/caster are not independently adjustable
# does not require drilling or cutting
# replaces oem rubber strut mounts with stiffer rubber units and may alter front ride height +/- 1/4"
# uses oem strut bearings
# supplied top strut nut in early kits do not fit - get correct replacement from SPC or use oem VW part #N90353603 instead (AM14x1.5mm self locking nut) Also, use a new inner nut (strut bushing) VW part #1H0412365A for best fit.
# install notes: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...96272
# use a rachet extension to ensure square holes line up when tightening inner nut!!!
# if your plates are squeaking or are slanting on the strut tower, see: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...40546 you can also contact SPC to source replacement top plates and nuts if yours are bent

Shine Racing camber plates:
# Part #CPVWADJ (MkIV)
# http://www.srsvw.com
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1313315
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1369239
# without perches: $200/pair, with stock-style spring perches: $259/pair, with coilover perches: $269/pair
# available now
# fixed front camber change of approx -1.5° on top of OEM spec
# camber/caster are not independently adjustable
# replaces soft upper strut mount with stiff heavy duty units
# intended for race use
# requires drilling two holes per strut tower, but no cutting
# plates can be re-drilled and/or rotated prior to install to achieve different caster/camber changes according to Dick Shine
# may lower front suspension 1/4"

K-mac camber plates:
# Part #141016 K
# http://www.k-mac.com.au/makes/volks.htm
# http://www.shox.com/appguide/shoxshop/
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1138793
# $289-$465/pair
# available now (overseas special order: lead time is 2-3 weeks)
# replaces upper strut mounts providing Camber and Caster adjustment up to approx 1.5°
# camber/caster are not independently adjustable
# no cutting, but requires drilling 3 holes
# may require modification of the hood support bracket on strut tower
# comes with thin polyurethane bushings
# questionable manufacturing quality

2Bennett:
# 2B Revolution Camber/Caster plates (Audi TT/Golf/GTI/Jetta)
# http://www.2bennett.com/body_tt.html
# $499/pair
# available now
# fixed camber change up to about -2.0°
# camber/caster are not independently adjustable
# Camber and caster adjustable upper mounts. Direct fit in place of factory mount. CNC machined from solid Aluminum with aerospace grade spherical bearings
# There is no drilling required

SPINDLE/BALLJOINT/CONTROL ARM MODS

Ingalls Engineering
# Part number: 35655
# Lower control arm extension plates
# http://www.ingallseng.com/new_products.htm
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1993095 - Discusssion thread
# http://www.ingallseng.com/Instructions/35655.pdf
# http://www.gmpperformance.com/...86077
# Front camber adjusting bracket. This new bracket mounts between the factory lower ball joint and the lower control arm. Allowing a ±1-1/4° range of adjustment. Ball Joint not included (reuses oem balljoint).
# May require adjustable endlinks for drive-shaft/front sway-bar clearance since lca is repositioned.
# Contact: Lightening Motorsports (800) 478-0952 for best pricing
# $129/pair (shipping included)

H2Sport drop spindles
# H2Sport drop spindles http://www.h2sport.com/products.php?productid=203
# discussion thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1997571
# available now (limited production run)
# telephone:905-702-8299 email
# $725/pair

Audi TT spindle & balljoint mod:
# various parts
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1254442
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1496890
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1724405
# $400-$1000 (less for used parts)
# available now
# replaces spindles, hubs, wheel bearings, balljoints, balljoint nut plates, lower control arms
# balljoints must be modified to fit VW MkIV control arms, or TT control arms can be used

VWMS camber shims and kit-car spindle:
# various parts
# http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...g.pdf (page 124-125)
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1721706 (discussion thread)
# $$$
# available with kit car packages through http://www.bildon.com

Performance Machine Works Ball-joint extender
# "For All Models Using The 17mm Or 19mm Ball Joint. Fits pinch clamp on stock VW upright, and stock ball joint shank. Returns lower control arm to proper angle to improve front suspension geometry on cars that have been lowered. Machined from 4140/4142 steel and heat treated to a tensile strength of 150,000 PSI. Standard extender drops ball joint 1.5 inches. Can be machined to special lengths."
# http://www.pmwltd.com/products.php
# MkI/MkII only? http://www.pmwltd.com/grfx/balljoint.jpg
# $265/pair

PRODUCTS IN DEVELOPMENT
# Hans J's custom camber plates; independent camber/caster up to 2.25° with spherical bearing. IM "Hans J" for more info.
# Ground Control - control arms with spherical bearings and relocated balljoints. IM "reflexgti" for more info.


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## r-compound (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I wanted to start a post that collects all the info available on Camber plates for MkIV. Please keep this thread clean and comment on the products if you have experience with them. Please supply the following information:
- Manufacturer
- Part Number
- Website
- Price
- Comments
- Availability

I'll get things started with a picture of what I'm talking about and the information I could find:
SPC:
- Part# 81340 
- http://www.specprod.com/PROD_D...&cmd3 & http://www.modacar.com/products/Audi/TT/MODACAK/
- $165/side??
- adjusts front camber/caster up to +/- 1.25°
- available now

Shine Racing:
- unknown part number
- http://www.srsvw.com & http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1313315
- unconfirmed price (probably $225/pair)
- adjusts front camber/caster up to 1.5°
- available now

Ground Control: (not sure if this is MkIV or just MkIII)
- unknown part number
- http://www.ground-control.com/...cb9b8
- $265/pair
- adjusts front camber/caster, GC recommends using a 2.5" lowering spring??
- available now


i don't think the SPC's ever shipped.
ground control was allegedly working on some, but that page doesn't mention them, and no availability has been announced.
there's another brand, tyrolkid has them. i forget the name.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (r-compound)*

Ive been doing some research myself. 
The SPC kits are supposed to be available 3rd quarter this year, but they have been saying "next month" for about 6 months. I call every month, but not yet for june
Eibach has a kit coming out, but they are actually made by SPC. Although Eibach is taking orders? 
K-mac has a kit, however their US distribution has been canceled, and you need to purchase them through their australian company. They are +300$, and their quality has been criticized on here. 
I also called Ground Control, and they do not have any MKIV stuff. 


_Modified by enginerd at 9:45 PM 6-4-2004_


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (r-compound)*

okay i've heard we can use "universal" camber plates but the strut towers needed to be welded/modified. Can someone explain what needs to be done to make this happen, cost, pro's cons???? thanks


_Modified by Banditt007 at 3:35 AM 6-6-2004_


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## knotcher (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_The SPC kits are supposed to be available 3rd quarter this year, but they have been saying "next month" for about 6 months. I call every month, but not yet for june 


try, about 1.5 years...i've been looking at this same kit from SPC for about 1.5 years and everytime I call, they say it will be ready in a "month or two"....i used to call each month hoping that they hadn't lied to me, but that never happened so i quit calling.
far as i can tell, shine is the only manufacturer that is actually shipping. i spoke to them on friday and they had a couple left from their frist run...as soon as i come up with the $$$, i'll be ordering.
i've also heard, but haven't confirmed, that they shine kit is the only one that is sts legal as it is the only one that doesnt' require cutting. again, i haven't confirmed this yet.


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_okay i've heard we can use "universal" camber plates but the strut towers needed to be welded/modified. Can someone explain what needs to be done to make this happen, cost, pro's cons???? thanks

_Modified by Banditt007 at 3:35 AM 6-6-2004_

Con - you can't go back to stock setup cause you need to weld everything in place. 
Only recommened for dedicated track car, too harsh for road.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Stewz-GTI)*

The KMacs have been holding up well on my car so far....no issues even with R-Compound tires








The Shine are probably the best bet right now in terms of cost/quality/availability. They are fixed at -1.6 or so, which is the most you will get without cutting your towers.


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## UmaSs JeTtA (May 2, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (tyrolkid)*

If anyone wants SPC camber kit, I can get ir for you guys....pm me fpr more info


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## BadassVW (Oct 16, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (UmaSs JeTtA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UmaSs JeTtA* »_If anyone wants SPC camber kit, I can get ir for you guys....pm me fpr more info

If this is such a sure thing then why not make a general post







I'm sure nobody here would object http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The SPC seems to be a fairly elegant solution to achieve negative camber without doing surgery on the towers


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## UmaSs JeTtA (May 2, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (BadassVW)*

well...just try to help out couple ppl here who needs it....I'm not doing any GB here....


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## UmaSs JeTtA (May 2, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (UmaSs JeTtA)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1438191


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

SPC also have rear camber shims. Don't know if I like the idea.


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## r-compound (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_SPC also have rear camber shims. Don't know if I like the idea.









items like these are very common in the A1/A2 racing scene.


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Really? Any examples I could look at?


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## Dog_Eater (May 20, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Just curious, is tyrolsport ever going to to sell a kit for the MKIV's with the TT spindles and some fabracated parts to make it all fit?
Since it looks like H20 never will.


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## TdiRacing (Apr 22, 2004)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

http://www.bildon.com used to sell these for the MK4 cars. Not sure if they still do. They were factory VW Racing parts.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Dog_Eater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dog_Eater* »_Just curious, is tyrolsport ever going to to sell a kit for the MKIV's with the TT spindles and some fabracated parts to make it all fit?
Since it looks like H20 never will.

We've been selling the modded balljoints on a per request basis......you're on your own for the spindles as they are hard to find......


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

What kind of lowering would a drop spindle (TT or H2) allow, with correct geometry of course? Been following the geometry thread, and I don't want to mess it up!


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## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Been following the geometry thread, and I don't want to mess it up!








thats how I feel about the majority of the suspension threads here ... too funny


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

The spindle mod would only be suggested for those that are regular track drivers. The amount of effort and money envolved will not be attactive to a day-day driver or a show car.
For detailed info on the modvtyrolkid thread has all the details and questions answered.
This is a camber plate list thread!











_Modified by Stewz-GTI at 9:31 AM 6-14-2004_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I wanted to start a post that collects all the info available on Camber plates and *drop spindles *for MkIV cars.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*

By the way, Shox.com has the K-Mac kit for $370! I called them and they said it's a 2-3week special order item, though.
Anyone know if the Shine kit is fixed at -1.5, or is it adjustable? I don't even see it listed on their website. Thanks!


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## knotcher (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_By the way, Shox.com has the K-Mac kit for $370! I called them and they said it's a 2-3week special order item, though.
Anyone know if the Shine kit is fixed at -1.5, or is it adjustable? I don't even see it listed on their website. Thanks!

fixed at -1.5...they haven't listed it yet, call for pricing and availability.
something to also think about...from what i gather from some other postes, the shine mkIV plates are the only ones that don't require you to cut the strut tower, and therefore are the only ones that are STS legal...don't know if you are running STS or not, but it is something to think about.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I thought I read that you DO have to drill 2 holes per strut for the Shine kit? The K_Mac doesn't appear to need any holes drilled. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm planning on SP or SM anyway, though)


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## Draksia (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_I thought I read that you DO have to drill 2 holes per strut for the Shine kit? The K_Mac doesn't appear to need any holes drilled. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm planning on SP or SM anyway, though)

If you are planning to run SP any of these are good options. IF you are going to run SM I highly recomend you look at getting the TT spindles. From the modeling Pyce has done it looks to be a very good for negative camber. It would be SM legal but not SP legal.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (Draksia)*

Thanks! I might do that. I thought the spindles were only for dropping the car? Do they allow more camber adjustment as well, or just better geometry?


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## knotcher (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_I thought I read that you DO have to drill 2 holes per strut for the Shine kit? The K_Mac doesn't appear to need any holes drilled. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm planning on SP or SM anyway, though)

drilling of holes in order to perform the installation of a camber kit is permitted


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (knotcher)*

Both Shine and Kmac require holes to be drilled.


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## Draksia (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Thanks! I might do that. I thought the spindles were only for dropping the car? Do they allow more camber adjustment as well, or just better geometry?

It doesn't have adjustment but it has more static negative camber and a much better dynamic camber curve.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (Draksia)*

Really... Intriguing. 
From what I read this is a fairly tedious process (TT spindle conversion), but I might keep an eye out for a junked TT. Is it ANY TT, or just the 225, or what? I'm suprised VW doesn't use them if they're a better design. Any chance they came stock on the 20th? Heh heh.


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## Draksia (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Really... Intriguing. 
From what I read this is a fairly tedious process (TT spindle conversion), but I might keep an eye out for a junked TT. Is it ANY TT, or just the 225, or what? I'm suprised VW doesn't use them if they're a better design. Any chance they came stock on the 20th? Heh heh.

It should be any TT. There is a discussion in the TT spindle thread as to why VW didn't put these on Mk4s.


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

More rear shims available from Bildon: LINK

_Quote, originally posted by *Bildon Motorsports* »_-1.5 deg Camber Shim - These precision ground steel shims make adjusting camber a simple process. These shims are hardened and will not crush or break under extreme abuse. 
Sold individually. 









Great post Dan!


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## dubmata (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Seeing that the SPC kit is apparently available now I was curious if anybody here has had the chance to play around with them yet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...63369


_Modified by dubmata at 9:11 AM 7-10-2004_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (dubmata)*

Nice spot! I would also like to know. I ordered the Shine package a week ago and they haven't shipped it yet.


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## Surfkahakai (Jul 10, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_SPC:
- Part# 81340 
- adjustable front camber/caster up to +/- 1.25°

From reading the SPC page and looking at the actual product, it appears that the camber is not adjustable. It looks to me like you can have + or - of 1.25 and that's it. There's no inbetween. But I could be wrong.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Surfkahakai)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Surfkahakai* »_
From reading the SPC page and looking at the actual product, it appears that the camber is not adjustable. It looks to me like you can have + or - of 1.25 and that's it. There's no inbetween. But I could be wrong.

Yes it does sound like that. However, if the pictures are accurate, then you can just rotate the whole assembly to make finer adjustments. This is what the ebay add implies. It appears that one person has already purchased the ebay part so we'll see how satisfied they are.

Edit: well I just got a personal response from Prosuspension.com. The SPC are fully adjustable on-the-fly. See Nook's thread here feel free to IM or email him: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1485507



_Modified by phatvw at 11:56 AM 7-11-2004_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_It appears that one person has already purchased the ebay part so we'll see how satisfied they are.

Call me the Guinea Pig. I couldn't help myself, and had to order a set. I'm going to cancel the Shine order I had in Monday morning.


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## Surfkahakai (Jul 10, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*

Make a post about it whn you install them. I'm sure everyone is interested in the results.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Surfkahakai)*

I was hoping to get it done before next weekend, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. Unless it gets shipped like Monday, then maybe. It may take me a few weeks to get them in and get an alignment - but I'll definitely post the results.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*

Mr Dick Shine,
If you're tuned into this, could you please comment on some of the camber plate designs we have here? I know your products are top notch. But I have to admit, the SPC kit looks like the most elegant of the bunch - no cutting or drilling.
I know your background is racing development while SPC and some of the other guys are more oriented towards correcting alignment issues after collisions and such. Honestly, do you think your kit provides more durablity than the other designs just from looking at the pictures? I'm curious if you have ordered kits from your competitors to compare?
Anything that you can tell us without potentially getting you into trouble would be very helpful!


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i just ordered the e-bay SPC Parts, and got a tracking #. Will have a full report on install, quality, and handling. About Fing time these things are available


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## Kanoa9321 (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*

personally I would rather go witht he SPC kit because first I dont like the idea of taking the strut mount out and also you can adjust it. the whole point of a camber kit is so that you can adjust the camber. With the shine one if your car is not accurate before you put it on one side might have more than the other.
just my 2 cents


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Kanoa9321)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kanoa9321* »_personally I would rather go witht he SPC kit because first I dont like the idea of taking the strut mount out and also you can adjust it. the whole point of a camber kit is so that you can adjust the camber. With the shine one if your car is not accurate before you put it on one side might have more than the other.
just my 2 cents

Well you can sort-of adust the shine kit by drilling more holes in the plate, but its not the same thing as the SPC and K-mac kits. The SPC definitely gets my vote for simplcity.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Kanoa9321)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kanoa9321* »_personally I would rather go witht he SPC kit because first I dont like the idea of taking the strut mount out and also you can adjust it. the whole point of a camber kit is so that you can adjust the camber. 
Why would you want to adjust the camber? These plates are intended for racing use, and you want as much camber as you can get when on the track. I could see if you had an adjustability range up to say -3 degress then adjustability would be nice because you could get into tire wear issues if you also drive on the street, but -1.5 should not cause any significant tire wear. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Kanoa9321* »_ With the shine one if your car is not accurate before you put it on one side might have more than the other.
 You can equalize the camber through the subframe if it is a little off.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (NOVAdub)*

Keep in mind that you don't start out at 0. I think I heard in the neighborhood of -1 degree as factory. Then I read another post (in here somewhere!) stating that you can loosen the lower ball joint and shift it for another 1 degree, roughly. So in theory, I think you could achieve -3. I will probably shoot for -2 so my tires last a bit longer - and for braking / acceleration performance. I did -2.5 on the Probe and you could notice less grip under braking in the fronts.


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## sicklyscott (Jun 24, 2002)

When you lower your car though beyond the paralell line (which for mk4 is anything lower than stock) you're camber goes + so this kit with a lowered car will not give you the -3 degrees above stated


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (sicklyscott)*

Ah, right. This is true. However at stock 20th height, I believe people have measured the near -1 degree. If you lower the car, that's gone. Anyway, if I can acheieve -2 to -2.5 with the kit, then I'll be pretty happy with that.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

You won't achieve more than -1.7 or so under any circumstances without cutting the strut tops...


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Mike - I respect the work you've done - but I'm confused. I would appreciate a little more information as to why it is not possible. See this:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1317779
According to this thread, you can get -0.5 to -1 just by moving the ball joint out. I certainly hope the SPC kit adds -1.5 to that. Plus I could swear that some of the stock 337/20ths were getting near -1 from the factory. By all arguements, it would seem -2 is doable.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Well the SPC kit is in my possession - but too late for this weekends' event. Hopefully I'll have them on Monday and get the alignment next week. Going to get some extra ball joint bolts as well and see what that gets me.


----------



## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Well the SPC kit is in my possession - but too late for this weekends' event. Hopefully I'll have them on Monday and get the alignment next week. Going to get some extra ball joint bolts as well and see what that gets me. 

I look forward to hearing about this kit...it's the only modification I would consider since I'm leaving my car otherwise, ummm, errrr...*STOCK*








I just want better bite in the front end on track events...until I buy myself a more tune-able RWD track toy.


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (apex107)*

just to let everyone know, I have a brand new set of the Shine plates with coilover perches for sale for $245 shipped (paid $300 shipped).
Never installed, I need the $ for big turbo parts.
if they don't sell soon then I guess I'll install them


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

FYI - I didn't have the time for the SPC install today. (Boost gauge IS done, though) As suspected the car IS in dire need of some camber. And a better driver, but that's off topic.








Unfortunately, I have other commitments next weekend so it looks like at least 2 weeks before I can get them in. I'll post my impressions once I do that and get an alignment. Then the real trial is the next Autocross...


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

SPC PLATES INSTALLED - the e-bay guy shipped them to my door in 2 days 184$ shipped. They are quality pieces, heavy duty. Install was a breeze, ive got koni coilovers, so i just swap the bushings with the spindle still clamped, just run the perches down. I set them up with as much negative camber as possible. I was playing around, trying to get a feel for how they adjusted camber Vs degrees of rotation. Ive got a digital level, however I was unable to get a decent reading while adjusting, and had to tighten all the way and then take a reading it was somewhat tedious. If you are looking for a quick street/track change you will be a bit diaspointed. 1.5 deg neg is not too bad for the street anyways








My current camber readings are 1.7 deg neg on the drivers side, and ~1.0 deg on the pass side. Im going to try and shift my subframe over and even it out didn't have time this weekend. Will take care of this when i add urethane lower control arm bushings as well. 
Initial feedback, turn in is improved significantly. I found myself turning in too soon, and too much, need to adjust. 
Handling seems to be much improved, the car goes into more of a neutral drift rather than a front end plow (ns rear bar set middle setting) car lowered ~1.5". I think i will be able to run lower tire pressures as well. One thing to note is that I had to raise my coils up 1/4" of an inch. I measured while jacked up from the fender lip to the axel centerline, and I lost ~1/4" with these plates. Also, they are a bit, just slightly stiffer than stock (compared to 3 week old stock bushings)
I went to an autox on saturday, and there was a damn flea market in the lot, so no chance to really push it yet. Will be sure to post some more feedback when I get to bet the piss out of them with the r-compounds. 2 wheelin photos to come


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*

On another note, how much adjustment can I expect from shifting the subframe? Has anyone tried to grind in any extra slot to the subframe to get some more adjustment out of it? Id really hate to run less camber on one side to just get it even, and there is a caster change from reducing the camber. Which way should I go, less,or more caster? This thing has so much torque steer it's not even funny.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*

I tried doing a search on ebay for the guy that sells the kit and have had no luck. Do you have a link?


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

here u go steve, if u do decide to get em, let me know how it goes, i'm looking into it as well. i'm over on norcalvw, under the same sn as well, and if u could post a review and stuff here that would be great.








http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...63369


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_SPC PLATES INSTALLED - the e-bay guy shipped them to my door in 2 days 184$ shipped. They are quality pieces, heavy duty. Install was a breeze, ive got koni coilovers, so i just swap the bushings with the spindle still clamped, just run the perches down. I set them up with as much negative camber as possible. I was playing around, trying to get a feel for how they adjusted camber Vs degrees of rotation. Ive got a digital level, however I was unable to get a decent reading while adjusting, and had to tighten all the way and then take a reading it was somewhat tedious. If you are looking for a quick street/track change you will be a bit diaspointed. 1.5 deg neg is not too bad for the street anyways








My current camber readings are 1.7 deg neg on the drivers side, and ~1.0 deg on the pass side. Im going to try and shift my subframe over and even it out didn't have time this weekend. Will take care of this when i add urethane lower control arm bushings as well. 
Initial feedback, turn in is improved significantly. I found myself turning in too soon, and too much, need to adjust. 
Handling seems to be much improved, the car goes into more of a neutral drift rather than a front end plow (ns rear bar set middle setting) car lowered ~1.5". I think i will be able to run lower tire pressures as well. One thing to note is that I had to raise my coils up 1/4" of an inch. I measured while jacked up from the fender lip to the axel centerline, and I lost ~1/4" with these plates. Also, they are a bit, just slightly stiffer than stock (compared to 3 week old stock bushings)
I went to an autox on saturday, and there was a damn flea market in the lot, so no chance to really push it yet. Will be sure to post some more feedback when I get to bet the piss out of them with the r-compounds. 2 wheelin photos to come 

umm, am i reading this right, u said the car lowered itself a 1/4 of an inch after u installed this kit??? did the car visually look lower and everything, err i mean the same height after u raised it back up??? what parts exactly does this kit exchange when compared to the stock setup. is the upper bushing just a lot smaller or something??? and what do u think about the overall construction of the kit, ie do u think that the settings will hold themselves after everything is tightened up, or is it gonna get loose and go from negative to positive camber???
sorry for all the ?'s i've just been following the whole camber thing for a few yrs and seeing results is makin me antsy haha.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

Hmm, I'm right on the verge of ordering them. Thanks for the link. I've had a friend test a 2Bennett kit which is of similar design as the SRS kit. I think the design of the 2Bennett is superior to the SRS but the price is downright crazy. I'm waiting on a prototype ground control piece that's being developed but would love to try the SPC kit as I've been looking into these for over a year and a half.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

oh really, yea 2B does charge a pretty penny. its not dave that has the kit is it??? i spoke w/ him a lil bit this weekend, but that was cut short as another frd showed up out of nowhere lol. although this kit can get u some camber, i seriously doubt its enough for u and ure track fiening days lol. i thought u'd be more of a 2 degree kinda guy haha.
how is GCs kit coming along, will that require hacking or drilling of the towers???


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

It's not Dave but rather an autocrosser friend that drives an Audi TT Quattro. 2Bennett wants $600 for the kit which I think is way overpriced. The one concern I have is the other kits are spherical bearings which are ideal over the rubber that SPC uses. The GC's are coming along albeit slowly. I would still need to test it too. The GC's should be similar to the SPC. 
Here's some pictures of the 2Bennett


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_It's not Dave but rather an autocrosser friend that drives an Audi TT Quattro. 2Bennett wants $600 for the kit which I think is way overpriced. The one concern I have is the other kits are spherical bearings which are ideal over the rubber that SPC uses. The GC's are coming along albeit slowly. I would still need to test it too. The GC's should be similar to the SPC. 
Here's some pictures of the 2Bennett









wow that is one expensive piece of machinery, i assume it bolts into the strut towers then??? will the GC kit be using sperehical bearings when they get theirs devleoped. also what what is the difference in harshness between the two. are spherical setups realistically streetable???


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

It actually bolts into the very top portion of the strut tower where the cap usually goes unlike the SRS ones.
The GCs will use spherical bearings as well. They're definitely more harsh but should be streetable but that really depends on your perception. The 2Bennett bearings are pretty beefy and the GCs are as well. The bearings in the SRS ones look small from what I can see in the photos so I don't know how long those will hold up.
Here's another picture to show how it bolts to the towers.










_Modified by reflexgti at 10:37 PM 7-19-2004_


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

oh man that's a really trick setup, but i can tottaly see why 600 is a bit pricey for what it is. in one sense its worth the dough for what u can do, but at the same time WOW haha. what is the maintenance like on sphereical bearings. do they not hold up as well as say a simple bushing as found in the spc kit??? my car is a daily driven vehicle and although i do enjoy a stiffer ride then most, i'm also looking at durability as well, and frankly i think 1.5 degrees is more than enough for street performance, would u agree???


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_SPC PLATES INSTALLED

This is awesome! Please post pics of the install!!!


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

I got to take the fun road to work today. Negative camber is awesome. 

I think that these SPC plates will hold up nicely. They are "rubber bushings" like the VW ones, however the rubber is harder, and there is less of it. It looks more like metal with a rubber coating on it. These will definiely last longer than the stock bushings. 
Also, the way it is secured in place to prevent rotation, is with 2 nuts both holding it in place. A lower nut that clamps it together, and sets the angle, and then an upper nut that holds the top cup in place, and prevents rotation. Only time will really tell if it will rotate out of place, and Ill be sure to monitor the camber for changes. This weekend, ill be resetting the camber, and shifting my subframe. Ill be sure to take pics of the adjustment. I didnt take pics of the install, because honestly it was as easy as changing out the struts. Perhaps someone else can take pics of the install, and the loose hardware.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_I didnt take pics of the install, because honestly it was as easy as changing out the struts. 

God, I hope it is easier than changing the struts! What a PITA. You did say that you left the strut clamped, right? Any difficulties in doing that? I don't want to EVER mess with that again!


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
God, I hope it is easier than changing the struts! What a PITA. You did say that you left the strut clamped, right? Any difficulties in doing that? I don't want to EVER mess with that again!


LOL, I was able to leave the strut clamped in the spindle, because I can run my coilovers down, and relieve the spring pre load without a spring compressor. I just pulled the top cup, and the top nut and lowered down the suspension. Had to pull the bolts for my sway bar links also. Depending on your setup, strut removal may be required. 
A little tip for separating the spindle is to put an allen socket in the gap, and by turning the socket with a breaker bar/ratchet, it spreads the spindle. There is a tool that looks like an oversized allen with two opposing sides ground down for this very purpose. But yeah the clamp design sucks, they should have went with a 2 bolt design like the Mk1's, and had camber adjustment. Cheap german cars


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Keep in mind that you don't start out at 0. I think I heard in the neighborhood of -1 degree as factory. Then I read another post (in here somewhere!) stating that you can loosen the lower ball joint and shift it for another 1 degree, roughly. So in theory, I think you could achieve -3. I will probably shoot for -2 so my tires last a bit longer - and for braking / acceleration performance. I did -2.5 on the Probe and you could notice less grip under braking in the fronts.

I just noticed this post, can you really get camber adjustment from the ball joint? Do you get it from the 3 small bolts? Are they slotted a bit? This may be what I need to even out my 0.7 deg deviation


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I actually bought the tool after doing it with a chisel (like the manual suggests!) the first time. I can't believe I paid $38 for a ground-down $14mm 1/2" hex socket that you can buy at sears for $6. Even so, I still don't want to tackle it again. Maybe I'll just drop the subframe - that's probably easier. ;-)
As for the ball joints, yes - if there is ANY play in those bolts you can adjust camber and castor SLIGHTLY with them. The holes are always bigger then the bolts, so there has to be some play there. Granted - they may ALREADY be at max camber. With the Probe you could adjust about 1/4-1/2 degree just by the upper strut mount holes. Using a vice-grip when tightening the bolts held the strut to one side.
When I get the SPC kit on I am going to pick up the ball joint bolts and head to the alignment shop. I'll have them measure it and then call me with the settings. Then they'll either move the lower subframe over and/or redo the ball joint bolts. If I can get an even 1.5-2 I'll be pretty happy.


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## SRSVW (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

The 2 Bennett plates offer slightly less camber gain than some others because in trying to raise the mount they cant tuck the shaft as far off center. They look like real quality,however.

Dick Shine


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (SRSVW)*

Here's my only pic of the camber plates. ill be jacking the car up in the next couple days to play with camber, and Ill take some more. 








here you can see the upper cap that actually clamps down on the bushing part. There is no gap like the stock setup (it would rotate otherwise) another nice thing is that if you go real hot into a corner and get the front end bouncing (yeah i drive like a clown sometimes) you wont get the clunking from the suspension unloading completely. It stays right in the cup where it belongs.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*

I wonder if extreme loads from wide R tires will cause that cap to rotate and mess up the camber...


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Im going ot pocono raceway for a 2 hour hot lapping session on sunday, im going to play with the camber this weekend, and monitor before and after settings. Proxes Ra1's should load the suspension real nice.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Cool. Please let us know how it turns out.


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## MrPiZaT (Jun 4, 2003)

hey guys, im looking to get my cambers back to stock because im having huge tire ware issues. my mods are as follows
-Eibach pro-kit springs
- takico blue shocks and struts
- 25mm autotech front sway
- 28mm rear sway.
so the question is. will these camber plates allow me to get back to stock to avoid such insane tirewear? 
I will be buying them the second this is confirmed.
(im sure it can but im a suspension n00b and i dont want to buy something that i dont need at all)


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (MrPiZaT)*

Your weird tire wear problem most likely is not due to camber but a change in toe. Stock front toe should be set to zero. Try another shop to confirm the toe settings.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Im going ot pocono raceway for a 2 hour hot lapping session on sunday, im going to play with the camber this weekend, and monitor before and after settings. Proxes Ra1's should load the suspension real nice. 

i guess this will be the ultimate test to see how these will hold up under use. track loads should be able to come closer to simulating long term use i suppose. let us know how it goes, if u could







.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*pocono results*

Saturday Before I left for pocono, I decided to tweek my settings a bit. 
I jacked up the car, loosened the subframe and pushed it over as far to the pass side as possible I had way more on the drives side. I used the factory jack against the wheel well and the strut to apply some force. Its nearly impossible to hold in place by yourself, and torque the bolts down otherwise. 
So then I decided to play with the ball joint bolts as mentioned. I was able to only adjust the camber ~0.1 to 0.15 Degrees by this tweeking. 
Lowered the car, drove around the block, and back into the garage. I checked the camber using my digital level on the wheel, and I got 
-2.3 Drivers, -2.4 Passengers - This is without me sitting in it
Off to pocono - I must say these a much more firm on the road than I previously thought. The NY/NJ roads were punishing. 250 Miles of punishment and there was no sign of loosening, or rotating, clunking. 
Handling much improved, particularly the balance between a left or a right turn. Even camber is good. 
At pocono, I managed to strip all the teeth off of 3rd gear (input/output) And my day was done after 50 miles on the track. Gear box blew mid way through 3rd gear on the high banking, went from 5K rpm to pinging the rev limiter, and then sounded like an ice maker while I coasted off the track. 250 miles of towing was not fun or cheap. 
When I got back, I checked the camber again
Drivers = -2.1
Pass = -2.4
Im going to look into the slight change on the drivers side, but it may be my accuracy with the digital level. I really should back it in and out of the garage a few times, however the teeth grinding in the gears made it a bit tough to move about. Perhaps the ball joint idea didnt hold? ill followup, along with pics of exploded transmission giblets


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: pocono results (enginerd)*

Ooh, crap. That bites. How was turn in? Was there much more grip in the front end in constant cornering? Was braking affected much?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: pocono results (enginerd)*

wow BIG BIG thumbs up to u for taking it to the track and holding tru on ure promise of getting back to us on ure review. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif &







to you







. oh man sorry about ure tranny, what happened there??? and how positive are u on the fact that it was the ball joint that moved and not the spc units??? are the spc units holding their adjustment just fine, or was it just a pipe dream. based on ure input out how rough the rds were, and the 50 track miles, i assume its had a decent amt of track testing and rd mileage to classify it as being tested enough???
if u can answer any of these ?'s i'm sure all of us including i would be very appreciative of it







. thanks again and how much does a digital level run for???


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: pocono results (rex_racer)*

Ok, more feedback. Turn in was much improved, i was able to really use braking and turning in at the same time to load the suspension through the corner, and not worry about pushing like a buick. This was my first time going hard with these plates, and It really felt much faster (they always do right before they blow right) Braking seemed fine, I just bled my brakes, so it felt better, not sure how the plates contributed. My stock control arm bushings are pretty mushy too, so I imagine under heavy braking my alignment gets a bit funky. (speaking of control arms, anyone got a how too for these, I dont have a press, and my dealership is too puss to install them for me)
Adjustment, I checked the nuts on top to see if they were still tight, and they didn't budge. Visually they do not appear to have shifted. With the fact that they only offer ~1 deg adjustment, It would have to rotate significantly to show up on the alignment. 
The level I use is a yokagawa unit, not sure on the cost, maybe ~150$. You would be better off with a real camber gauge. My setup is somewhat crude. 
Now for the best part. Mega tranny abuse. Let go ~5 - 6K in third gear. Didnt' miss shift/power shift. Hub/synchro/hub teeth look good. Just torqued all the teeth right off. APR STG III on 100 Oct. So much for the weak sauce
























And a new personal best. Solo Tranny removal in 2 hours 30 minutes, with jackstands, no air tools and a home made engine support brace.








Oh, one more note. Tire wear. I have been eating the outer portion of my tire real bad from auto x. I noticed that at this event, i heated the whole tire pretty good, but the outer edge wasn't as mutilated as i expected. I should have another auto x this weekend for more feedback. Just need to make a frankentranny from my spare. 


_Modified by enginerd at 9:41 PM 7-26-2004_


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: pocono results (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Ok, more feedback. Turn in was much improved, i was able to really use braking and turning in at the same time to load the suspension through the corner, and not worry about pushing like a buick. This was my first time going hard with these plates, and It really felt much faster (they always do right before they blow right) Braking seemed fine, I just bled my brakes, so it felt better, not sure how the plates contributed. My stock control arm bushings are pretty mushy too, so I imagine under heavy braking my alignment gets a bit funky. (speaking of control arms, anyone got a how too for these, I dont have a press, and my dealership is too puss to install them for me)
Adjustment, I checked the nuts on top to see if they were still tight, and they didn't budge. Visually they do not appear to have shifted. With the fact that they only offer ~1 deg adjustment, It would have to rotate significantly to show up on the alignment. 
The level I use is a yokagawa unit, not sure on the cost, maybe ~150$. You would be better off with a real camber gauge. My setup is somewhat crude. 
Now for the best part. Mega tranny abuse. Let go ~5 - 6K in third gear. Didnt' miss shift/power shift. Hub/synchro/hub teeth look good. Just torqued all the teeth right off. APR STG III on 100 Oct. So much for the weak sauce
























And a new personal best. Solo Tranny removal in 2 hours 30 minutes, with jackstands, no air tools and a home made engine support brace.








Oh, one more note. Tire wear. I have been eating the outer portion of my tire real bad from auto x. I noticed that at this event, i heated the whole tire pretty good, but the outer edge wasn't as mutilated as i expected. I should have another auto x this weekend for more feedback. Just need to make a frankentranny from my spare. 

_Modified by enginerd at 9:41 PM 7-26-2004_

LOL, omg that is tooo funny, i can't believe they all stripped off, weaksauce man weak haha. good luck to u on getting it all put back together and ready for the auto-x







. wow so u didn't notice any play w/ the spc units, very interesting. i guess they can probably hold up to the rigors of daily use and track driving very interesting hehe. as far as ure CA bushings go, keep lookin for a press i guess.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: pocono results (enginerd)*

oh and if u ever get a chance, if u could do a quick check on the spc, ie, loosen it and see if u can crank it over more to get more camber, to confirm that it did not move we would all appreciate it hehe. sorry for all the requests, i'm just really really interested and curious on this setup. best of luck on frankensteining ure tranny







.


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## pittbug (Jun 13, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, what would happen if you combined the TT spindle mod with an upper mount kit like the SPC?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (pittbug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pittbug* »_Just out of curiosity, what would happen if you combined the TT spindle mod with an upper mount kit like the SPC?


u'd have the ability to get even more negative camber and have a much improved roll center and therefore better handling







.


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (pittbug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pittbug* »_Just out of curiosity, what would happen if you combined the TT spindle mod with an upper mount kit like the SPC?

I'll let you know within a week...


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (Girlsound)*

Well, we've just installed the SPC camber mounts. 
Fantastic! They might not give the most negative adjustment that the other kits provide, but the fact that there is no drilling is a huge plus. Simple, straight forward installation, no problems...associated with the SPC kit that is.








I set the camber adjustment to 45*...half way between full negative camber and full negative caster. I didn't like the excess positive caster that the shine springs gave. The steering was too vague around the center for my tastes. And too eager to self center itself. That feeling is GONE! Just like that.







Returned is a much more "nimble" feeling. My old Lancia Beta actually ran nearly 0* caster and I grew to really appreciate the handling of that great car (RIP







). The turn-in is wonderful as far as I can tell at this point. I haven't gotten an alignment yet and it just started raining as we were getting finished. 
The only problem that we had was when we were removing the driver's side strut. Somehow the ABS sensor line got pinched and the wire pulled right out of the plug.







Unless we can figure out how to get the thing repaired, I'm going to have to shell out $50 for a new end (they only come as an entire unit...the plug and the lead)














.
Oh well, I'll go get an alignment. Soon I'll get the TT spindles installed...either Tyrolkid (Mike) will do it, or we'll brave it ourselves. But I don't know if I can afford that







.


_Modified by Girlsound at 2:11 PM 7-27-2004_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

My understanding is that you want as much positive caster as possible. You want the pivot line (strut) leaning back like on a motorcycle. This allows the wheel to tilt in, effectively adding to your camber when you turn. I understand your personally not liking the feel, but I wanted to point this out to add to the setting discussion:
*Source:* http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...n.jsp

_Quote »_Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness. Positive caster also increases tire lean when cornering (almost like having more negative camber) as the steering angle is increased.
What's the downside to positive caster? If the vehicle doesn't have power steering, a noticeable increase in steering effort will be felt as positive caster is increased. Other than that, the effects of positive caster are pretty much "positive," especially increasing the lean of the tire when the vehicle is cornering while returning it to a more upright position when driving straight ahead.
....
If you are an assertive driver who enjoys driving hard through the corners and expressway ramps, a performance alignment is appropriate for your car. A performance alignment consists of using the vehicle manufacturer's range of alignment specifications to maximize the tires' performance. A performance alignment calls for the manufacturer's maximum negative camber, maximum positive caster, and preferred toe settings. While remaining within the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations, these alignment settings will maximize tire performance.
If you are a competition driver who frequently runs autocross, track or road race events, you'll typically want the maximum negative camber, maximum positive caster and most aggressive toe settings available from the car and permitted by the competition rules. If the rules permit, aftermarket camber plates and caster adjustments are good investments.





_Modified by AutoXMan at 5:42 PM 7-27-2004_


----------



## pittbug (Jun 13, 2004)

*Re: (Girlsound)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Girlsound* »_
I'll let you know within a week...









Cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Kanoa9321 (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (pittbug)*

I have one of the new SPC camber kits for sale it is brand new and has never been used, still in original box. I will sell it for $165 with free overnight shipping.
Please let me know if your intrested.


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

I don't remember just where I saw that Dick Shine has been experimenting with the 45* setup. I had been thinking about this set up for a while and when I heard that he was considering the same I figured that I'd give it a try. I also saw that VWMS suggests a similar approach...








this is from a file I got from Bildon's site HERE


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## willZ (May 26, 2004)

*Re: pocono results (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Off to pocono - I must say these a much more firm on the road than I previously thought. The NY/NJ roads were punishing. 250 Miles of punishment and there was no sign of loosening, or rotating, clunking.

Justin, sorry to hear about your tranny's dental problem. 
I'm curioous if you have any impression regarding the SPC camber kit as far as increased cabin noise and/or "driving down the highway" degridation in ride quality? 
Thanks, Will


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: pocono results (willZ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *willZ* »_
Justin, sorry to hear about your tranny's dental problem. 
I'm curioous if you have any impression regarding the SPC camber kit as far as increased cabin noise and/or "driving down the highway" degridation in ride quality? 
Thanks, Will

My tires sound like a swarm of bees, the exhaust drones, and I don't have a back seat, so i cant really comment on the cabin noise. The ride is firm to the point that I do not enjoy long 4 hour drives, But I have coilovers, and real stiff sidewalls on my tires. I would say that they are still fine for the street, but if you live in the city where there are rough roads, or you frequently take long trips, you may want to reconsider any form of camber plate. If you must have camber, these SPC plates are probably the softest option right now


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## BadassVW (Oct 16, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

what (if any) losses in straight line braking? ...can you differentiate before vs after w.r.t. this???


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (BadassVW)*

Am curious as well. My PGT was noticible with about 2 degrees negative. But perhaps with the MK4 'deficiencies' (IE: Positive camber gain) under load, you gain some of that back? Mark down ONE benefit!


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## Kanoa9321 (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Yesterday I took my GTI to the track with the SPC kit, after 3 sessions of about 30 min each the kit appears to be in the exact same positon and has not moved at all. After that test I dont think the camber kit will be moving anywhere, it looks like SPC worked out the kinks in the plate moving and the long wait for it to come out was well worth it.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (Kanoa9321)*

Any suggestions on installing the SPC kit with Konis? I appear to have F'd it up.








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1521324



_Modified by AutoXMan at 7:46 AM 8-2-2004_


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

AutoXman, 
The link is to the forum only. I found that with koni's it was easier than if you had stock shocks? Just thread the spring all the way down and unscrew the top. Make sure you dont use the nut that they send you, the thread appears to be different than the koni's. Just reuse the koni nut. I used just the nut without the lockwasher. All is still tight. I installed a set of control arm bushings yesterday, took most of the day. With just a vice, and a 3 jaw puller it was a pain in the ass. I ended up freezing the bushings, and heating the control arm with a heat gun to get the damn things to pop in. not a job I recommend unless you have plenty of time, and your cars already broken







.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Thanks for the HU on the link - it's fixed.
Do you mean the Koni coilovers? I have the Koni struts. The problem is that the top nut doesn't go down far enough to get a second wrench on the shaft to keep it from spinning.


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## knotcher (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_I installed a set of control arm bushings yesterday, took most of the day. With just a vice, and a 3 jaw puller it was a pain in the ass. I ended up freezing the bushings, and heating the control arm with a heat gun to get the damn things to pop in. not a job I recommend unless you have plenty of time, and your cars already broken







. 

air chisel and a vise!!!...ca bushing install took under 1 hr


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Thanks for the HU on the link - it's fixed.
Do you mean the Koni coilovers? I have the Koni struts. The problem is that the top nut doesn't go down far enough to get a second wrench on the shaft to keep it from spinning.

I have koni coils. I found that tightening the lower nut and then compressing the strut with a bottle jack under the control arm prevented the strut from spinning freely so I could get the top nut started. Once I got the nut started I used two wrenches on it. Make sure you have the round pin going into the square hole in the strut top. use a 3/8 drive extension to line up the 2 square holes. Then tighten, check that the pins in, and repeat till you get it tight.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

How many threads do you have showing above the top nut? Maybe I have something assembled wrong, because on mine there are no visible threads - the shaft doesn't come up through the nut. I am sure the round pin is through the square holes, though.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Where did you guys get your SPC kits? I ordered from http://www.coximport.com for $162 shipped (seems like a great price); but they told me that the kit is on backorder for 1 month. Who has the kit available and for what kind of price. 
AutoXman - hope you get your situation figured out. Myself, along /w other Koni strut users could be worried about compatibility issues.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

IM Nook. He has a big pile of them and is selling through ebay and http://www.prosuspension.com. 162 shipped seems like a pretty good price though!


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_How many threads do you have showing above the top nut? Maybe I have something assembled wrong, because on mine there are no visible threads - the shaft doesn't come up through the nut. I am sure the round pin is through the square holes, though.

I have almost no threads showing. mostly the hex nut part sticking out. make sure you tighten up the lower nut ~30 ftlbs. also make sure that the washer part sits right. One side of the washer is counter sunk. If you are really having problems, you can go to a machine shop and have them mill off some material from the oem aluminum bearing support ring. It wont cost very much. You could even diy if you have the right tools. good luck


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Ok, well I discovered what caused my problem. The SPC kit comes with the wrong nuts. I borrowed a tap & die set with some thread gauges. Turns out the OEM struts and Konis are a 1.5 pitch (I think that's threads per MM for metric?) whereas the SPC nuts that were supplied to me were a 2.0. I didn't realize it and threaded on the new bolts. So that's what caused the issue.
The die kit wasn't large enough, so last night I ran the correct nut up and down a few times. I think the threads are pretty much straightened out now. But I still have a problem with the Konis. The washer taper is up, toward the lower nut - so the nut sits down in it. The upper nut (especially with Koni's nut, not SPC's) is just too tall to get a second wrench on the top of the shaft to hold it. Stock struts or Bilsteins would not have this problem as they have an allen bolt style hole in the end of the shaft. This would work fine. The Konis have an adjustment tab here, and the top 1/4" of the shaft is cut into a ~10mm bolt head. When the top nut covers this, you're screwed.
I drove the car last night, and it's tight enough for a trip to the shop. I'll explain the problem and have a professional chew on it a while. Maybe they can clamp the shaft below the strut tower and get it tight. Or they can put loc-tite if that's the best solution. I need an alignment anyway.
I will email this thread to Nook to make him aware of the issue.


_Modified by AutoXMan at 7:52 AM 8-3-2004_


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Ok, well I discovered what caused my problem. The SPC kit comes with the wrong nuts. I borrowed a tap & die set with some thread gauges. Turns out the OEM struts and Konis are a 1.5 pitch (I think that's threads per MM for metric?) whereas the SPC nuts that were supplied to me were a 2.0. I didn't realize it and threaded on the new bolts. So that's what caused the issue.
The die kit wasn't large enough, so last night I ran the correct nut up and down a few times. I think the threads are pretty much straightened out now. But I still have a problem with the Konis. The washer taper is up, toward the lower nut - so the nut sits down in it. The upper nut (especially with Koni's nut, not SPC's) is just too tall to get a second wrench on the top of the shaft to hold it. Stock struts or Bilsteins would not have this problem as they have an allen bolt style hole in the end of the shaft. This would work fine. The Konis have an adjustment tab here, and the top 1/4" of the shaft is cut into a ~10mm bolt head. When the top nut covers this, you're screwed.
I drove the car last night, and it's tight enough for a trip to the shop. I'll explain the problem and have a professional chew on it a while. Maybe they can clamp the shaft below the strut tower and get it tight. Or they can put loc-tite if that's the best solution. I need an alignment anyway.
I will email this thread to Nook to make him aware of the issue.

_Modified by AutoXMan at 7:52 AM 8-3-2004_

OK, trying to picture the situation...
The top of the Koni is just barely poking through into the engine compartment, enough to get a nut on but not enough to hold the shaft to properly tighten the nut.
How much smaller is the top of the shaft than the inside of the nut? Can you take a "disposable" socket and grind down the outside so it squeezes inside the nut and just holds the shaft enough to tighten?? I am guessing the shaft need not be held too tight to get the nut to pull the shaft up. I always used to use an impact wrench to get top strut nuts loose or tight on other cars. Is the top nut Nyloc or regular? Impact may work either way though. 
OK so I'm just talking out of my ass...thinking out loud to be more polite about it


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Yep, you've got it. The inside of the nut doesn't clear the hex-cut shaft by enough to get anything on it. I took it to a decent shop and they used an impact wrench. It's on, and I'm pretty happy with the alignment #'s - so I'm not touching it. ;-)
Front:
Camber L:-1.3 R:-1.3
Caster L:8.0 R:7.9
Toe L:-.25 R:-.25 (out)
Rear
Camber L:-1.4 R:-1.5
I'm pretty happy with those #'s - it should be enough to reduce the rollover I was getting and let me lower the pressures a little.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Sounds good. You could try to play with the ball joint to push it out on both sides for another -0.1 - 0.15 Deg. 
But on another note, check this out
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1527112
This guys got -3 deg. running some custom driveshaft spacers, and a balljoint mod of some kind. Sounds like a potential kit to me


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Wow - that's some fab work for you. Sounds like the suspension and ball joint was cut up and remade. That's a little too serious for weekend autocrossing and occasional track day. If anything I might consider the TT spindle but that's an SM mod and kinda pricey, too. I thought about playing with the BJ bolts, but I didn't want to give my mechanic a seizure. Thankfully, I didn't have to tell him to shift the sub frame for equal camber. He's pretty good but definitely not a tuner. I might shift them myself if I am still getting a problem with rollover. I have to say that I think -3 is a little too much static camber.


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Yep, you've got it. The inside of the nut doesn't clear the hex-cut shaft by enough to get anything on it. I took it to a decent shop and they used an impact wrench. It's on, and I'm pretty happy with the alignment #'s - so I'm not touching it. ;-)
Front:
Camber L:-1.3 R:-1.3
Caster L:8.0 R:7.9
Toe L:-.25 R:-.25 (out)
Rear
Camber L:-1.4 R:-1.5
I'm pretty happy with those #'s - it should be enough to reduce the rollover I was getting and let me lower the pressures a little.

PHEW! I was worried that this equipment combo would not work. I was leaning toward Koni Sports anyway, and then I saw this thread about the SPC kit...a logical add-on. I would rather get the front to bite better(static negative camber) than stiffen the rear(sway bar or whatever) to get the car more neutral. The latter solution seems a short cut in a way. 
Good luck!


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

FWIW - I'm running about 4 psi higher (44) in the back, full stiff on a NS 28mm bar, and 3/4 on the back Konis. Even so I'm still not getting a LOT of rotation.


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_FWIW - I'm running about 4 psi higher (44) in the back, full stiff on a NS 28mm bar, and 3/4 on the back Konis. Even so I'm still not getting a LOT of rotation.

Going higher psi in the rear eh? I thought that's old school at this point, given the traction curve of modern tires(grip drops off more rapidly once you go higher than the max grip psi), going lower at the rear would let you better control traction back there...or lack thereof...without having huge changes in grip coming from small psi changes. Nothing quite like making a 2 psi bump and suddenly that reasonably neutral balance go WHOOPS into tail-happy land


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (apex107)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apex107* »_
Going higher psi in the rear eh? I thought that's old school at this point, given the traction curve of modern tires(grip drops off more rapidly once you go higher than the max grip psi), going lower at the rear would let you better control traction back there...or lack thereof...without having huge changes in grip coming from small psi changes. Nothing quite like making a 2 psi bump and suddenly that reasonably neutral balance go WHOOPS into tail-happy land









I wish I could find this tail happy land you speak of. 44 psi rear 34 psi front on proxes Ra1's. I just go on 3 wheels, but still cant get good rotation out of this thing. Perhaps more rebound in the rear to go with the 28mm bar. Or even a different set of tires for the back with less grip.


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## Buttero J-Lo (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Or even a different set of tires for the back with less grip. 
Thats exactly what I did http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

It suprised me, too. 44psi was NOT tail happy. Quite controlled, actually. Just a little bit of stepping out at turn in. (That's with a 28mm bar on full stiff, too) I thought about adding a Shine bar and replacing the front bar... stiffen the front a little and stiffen the back a LOT.


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_It suprised me, too. 44psi was NOT tail happy. Quite controlled, actually. Just a little bit of stepping out at turn in. (That's with a 28mm bar on full stiff, too) I thought about adding a Shine bar and replacing the front bar... stiffen the front a little and stiffen the back a LOT.

Just an FYI so you know where I'm comin' from: I am currently only doing "track days" etc with my 337, and work on getting HOT front tire pressures both up to 40 psi based on Kumho's max grip specs for my Victoracers. The rears I start at 4 psi less than the fronts and as I put on more laps adjust them down in 2 psi increments until I'm comfortable. In fast corners like Limerock's West Bend I still have to use some trailbraking to get the rear to do something other than drag along behind me!
Anything to get the fronts to bite better, as opposed to getting the rears to bite worse, is what I want. I want camber camber camber, negative that is. I also want a multi-link front end like my Passat wagon had! That ain't gonna happen...


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Try switching your strategy. Run the fronts 4 psi higher than the rears. It's free.







Most street tires are different than track tires. A general rule of thumb is that higher pressures = higher traction...up to the maximum pressure of course.


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## knotcher (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (Girlsound)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Girlsound* »_A general rule of thumb is that higher pressures = higher traction...up to the maximum pressure of course.
















i must be reading this wrong...are you saying that the more pressure your tire has in it, the more traction, i.e. grip, you'll get out of it?
if so, i'd really like to hear your explanation as to how you came to this conclusion.


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (knotcher)*

A couple Mk4 cars that race locally run around 44psi in the rear and 33ish in the front hot. That is on Victoracers I believe and rear bars set at full stiff. The cars rotate nice and are not tail happy, butthe setup will probably change when I add my camber plates.
And higher pressure = higher traction isn't completly true, the best pressure to run is the one that makes your tires stick the best, all that can be done is trying everything you can in a day when you get lots of runs to compare effect of pressures back to back. Usually out of my experience is lower pressure = higher traction, it gives you a larger, more forgiving footprint that equals traction. All I can say is try every pressure and find out what works best with your setup.
edit: Rear Koni's also set on full stiff (maybe 95%) on both cars with FK Coilovers.


_Modified by hans j at 11:14 PM 8-6-2004_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*

I can tell you that 44 psi is a LOT worse than 42psi in the fronts with Azenis. 40psi is better, but I got more rollover. I'm hoping to try 36-40 with the camber kit on now. Running 42-44 in back and it seems pretty stable, but still willing to step out with trail braking.


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (knotcher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *knotcher* »_















i must be reading this wrong...are you saying that the more pressure your tire has in it, the more traction, i.e. grip, you'll get out of it?
if so, i'd really like to hear your explanation as to how you came to this conclusion.

The max pressure printed on the sidewall of the tire is NOT the pressure that provides maximum, period. That pressure is for safety reasons only. 
The pressure at which the tire will give you maximum grip is something you can find out from the manufacturer, and every tire design has a different pressure for maximum grip. 
As I've come to understand it, modern tires in general gradually gain grip as you increase the pressure up to the maximum grip pressure, after which the grip falls off much faster for a given increase in pressure. 
In the case of Kumho V700 Victoracers the manufacturer informed me that max grip is achieved at approximately 40 psi, so I used that as the hot target for the front tires, and kept the rears 6-8 psi lower(if I recall) when running at Limerock. When I go to NHIS I'll have to see if a larger pressure differential front to rear might help since that track is quite a bit tighter in places than LRP.
Disclaimer: Your actual results may vary.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (apex107)*

That maximum pressure point is very much theoretical since many other factors come into play. Total weight of the car, weight distribution, static camber, suspension geometry, etc. That 40 psi that you were given will do nothing if your car is too heavy with a poor camber curve and you're rolling the tires past the outside edge onto the sidewall.


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_That maximum pressure point is very much theoretical since many other factors come into play. Total weight of the car, weight distribution, static camber, suspension geometry, etc. That 40 psi that you were given will do nothing if your car is too heavy with a poor camber curve and you're rolling the tires past the outside edge onto the sidewall.

When I received the psi figure that I did, I had presented the Kumho tech rep quite a bit of model-specific information, and was given the 40 psi as a target(which has worked well enough). It's quite clear from a variety of sources though that(given similar vehicles and conditions) there is a wide range of theoretical maximum grip pressures for different tire designs/brands. I would doubt that my tires would work very well at some of the much lower pressures some tire makers suggest for their designs. 
Right now I am working off of seat-of-the-pants data, and when I have a "crew" person available I'll get my pyrometer in play. During a 20-25 minute session I am not going to try to come in, unbuckle and scramble out, check temps, adjust pressures, scramble back in, buckle up and head out again. I do know I have had no visual signs of "rollover", so I'm not that concerned.


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (apex107)*

Obviously I don't suggest that you run 60+ psi. If you run all of your tires at the "ideal" pressure for grip, try lowering the rear a few pounds. It's not like it's a $250 mod...it's free.







Try it, if it doesn't work for you, change it. In my experience, dropping the rear to, say, 32 psi if the front's are at 35 psi can really help the rear come around. 
One example of this recommendation can be found HERE
Again, it's free...if it doesn't work, or you don't like it...reverse it.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (Girlsound)*

i will agree w/ girlsound when i had the stock tires, if i had the fronts at say 35 psi and the rears at 30 the rear would come around. but that is due to the tire rolling over on its sidewall, it gives the feeling of a mushy slow and forgiving rear end when it comes around. higher psi, say 40 will also make the rear come around, and i like jacking up the pressure so the tire runs on a smaller (center) contact patch, its much more tight and solid when it comes around. Now with my 225/45/17 falken azenis, they have a very stiff sidewall so running a pressure like 30 psi will not get the rear end around b/c the sidewalls are too stiff it wont roll over on them it just makes the rear stick more. i run 45psi in the rear and about 34 in the front, and the rear still wont really come around at all. i'm running full shine suspension just need to get that dam rear sway bar in. The rear beam is tweeked so i have to replace that before i install the beam.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

That's my thinking about raising the rear pressure. Sure you can lower the pressure and get the same results. But with the lower grip from lower pressure comes slower response. Think of traction as a bell shaped curve. There is an optimum pressure with maximum grip, and the grip falls off to both sides, so either way is effective. 
Also note that the curve will be different in relation to braking, accelerating, and turning. Each has it's own 'maximum grip' pressure. Then remember that maximum grip at each tire might not bring you the fastest lap times! If you need to get some rotation from the back end (to balance the front sliding, to negotiate a crucial tight corner, etc) then you won't be running the maximum grip in back.


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## apex107 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_That's my thinking about raising the rear pressure. Sure you can lower the pressure and get the same results. But with the lower grip from lower pressure comes slower response. Think of traction as a bell shaped curve. There is an optimum pressure with maximum grip, and the grip falls off to both sides, so either way is effective. 
Also note that the curve will be different in relation to braking, accelerating, and turning. Each has it's own 'maximum grip' pressure. Then remember that maximum grip at each tire might not bring you the fastest lap times! If you need to get some rotation from the back end (to balance the front sliding, to negotiate a crucial tight corner, etc) then you won't be running the maximum grip in back.

That "bell curve" you mention is generally much steeper a drop off the higher the pressure, therefore for any given increase in pressure past the "max grip" psi the level of traction drops more than for a similar reduction in pressure below the "max grip" psi. It's more forgiving dropping pressure to reduce grip, that's my only point.
I'm well aware that getting max grip(through tire pressures) at all tires may not give the best lap time...that's why I put my $0.02 into this discussion thread. I would rather increase front grip by altering the front end alignment(camber kit of one form or another) than just tighten the rear roll and play one way or another with the rear pressure(which should be used for fine tuning if one is lucky enough to have a highly adjustable suspension to begin with).


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Ah, I see your point.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Any updates from the SPC customers. I sure some one has autocrossed or went to a track lately.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I haven't autocrossed with it yet - missed the last event and another was cancelled. From a couple of hard corners that I know quite well I think that it grips a little better. Rough guess would be 2mph. I think the real benefit in competition will be lowering the front pressures from 40-42psi down to maybe 36 without rolling over. The softer pressures will give better grip, not the camber by itself.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_I haven't autocrossed with it yet - missed the last event and another was cancelled. From a couple of hard corners that I know quite well I think that it grips a little better. Rough guess would be 2mph. I think the real benefit in competition will be lowering the front pressures from 40-42psi down to maybe 36 without rolling over. The softer pressures will give better grip, not the camber by itself.

I missed my last auto x as well, instead I got to race a turbo rabbit at last weekends auto x. Man thsoe things a so hard to drive. No power steering, skinny street tires. it was like wrestling a midget the whole time i was out there. Whack the throttle and the car jumps over a foot or more from the torque steer i only had 2 runs without hitting a cone








Anyways, back to the MKIV. My tranny is finally back together after over 2 weeks of downtime. I also added urethane lower control arms while it was jacked. I made a few road runs with the car. The turn in on this thing is incredible now. It feels drastially different, holds a line very precise and yet its still streetable (im sick though). I can't wait to auto x again this sunday. Camber plates show no signs of loosening/turning. Im happy with my investment, just hope that the tranny lasts a bit longer this time.


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Very positive! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I just got back from a 500 mile road trip from southern NY to VT and back. Lots of different roads; twisties, hilly, highway. Rock solid. At speed the car is very stable, more than it was with just the Shine springs. I have it set about 25* forward from full camber. I'm aware of some noises more than before, but really not that much. At 80+ (90+) MPH it's very smooth. And steering feel is much improved. Alas, I have not had an opportunity to track the car yet. But, all in all...


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (Girlsound)*

Hopefully my plates will be available soon!!!







I made my own that might give up to 2.5 degrees with no caster and a little less if caster added in. I tought everything else was junk so I wanted something better. First test of the prototypes today and they held up very well and improved turn in very much!! Now running full stiff on Konis and 33psi front and 35psi rear with little roll over on tires and improved tire temps across the tire.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*

I am assuming that cutting the strut towers would be required?


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*

Nope







I am going to hopefully have another set built this week that will fit a little better and see how hard anodizing will hold up. I will try to get pictures up of how it looks soon!


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*

Are you talking about plates for your rabbit or for the mk 4 chassis?


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*

Mk4, I haven't measured the camber but when its maxed out it is at least one more degree than the rear tire which stock is at one degree negative. It almost looks like the suspension is broken because it is so odd to see a golf with so much camber.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

*UPDATE:* AutoX this weekend. 2nd place street mod. Beat the isht out of the car, bumpy course (always is). I got a nasty clunking at the end of my second run. Couldnt feel anything from a shake test. I still ran for a total of 7 runs at speed, got slower than the first run every time, except on a fun run with a passenger which was 1 second faster (think there is a balance problem?) Jacked the car up last night, and my front sway came disconnected on the drivers side







Next time my bud's come over to work, im sending them out for beer. I know I delegated the torqing of front sway, and control arms to my friend while I finished the tranny install. 
Anyways, no other loose components, camber plates are fine. A big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for these. I installed these on a friends car, and he loves them as well. Ill be Running them again this weekeng for more abuse.
In regards to any other strut top camber setups, Unless you cut the strut tops, there is really no way to get more than 2.2 - 2.5 deg negative on the top. The strut shaft is simply only going to move over so far. To get more you need TT spindles, and a ball joint mod. This will also help roll center, but will but the hurt on your wallet. 
Anyone heard any news on the H2sport spindles?


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Anyone heard any news on the H2sport spindles?

I emailed them about a month ago. The project is still in the works but they have no release date. The only other info I got was that they are not drop spindles liek youd use on an old muscle car/truck that lower your car, they will just help to correct geometry on cars with lowering springs.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

No, havent' heard any more. However, according to Bildon's VW Racing catalog, there are already slotted lower ball joints available. In SM you're cleared to use them.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

you got a link to those? Are they about 3x as expensive as they should be?


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...C.pdf
Page 74 & 75, Part # B4C 407 365 A
They don't list a price, but state that they can order much more than what is listed for sale. Presumably they can get anything that is in the catalogs from VWR. I don't know if the stock LCA can take this part or if the VWR LCA is special to accept it. There are also some interesting ideas in that catalog. Look at the front and rear swaybars. And talk about 'broken axles' - look at the picture on the cover!


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
I don't know if the stock LCA can take this part or if the VWR LCA is special to accept it. There are also some interesting ideas in that catalog. Look at the front and rear swaybars. And talk about 'broken axles' - look at the picture on the cover!

That thing is real nice. I like the end where they give the spec's on the car. 5 - 6degrees negative camber. And that sucker is low low low, with exactly the same roll center front/rear. Im guessing here's how. LCA, SPINDLE, and Ball joint. notice how wierd the ball joint looks, its more of a thru bolt than what we have. I wonder how different the upright is from the TT? 

























Oh, btw, in case you were wondering 180N/mm = 1027 Lb/in








1N/mm = 5.7 LB/in




_Modified by enginerd at 12:26 PM 8-25-2004_


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Let me know if you order a set! Like I said - I don't know how different the other parts are in order to accomodate the adjustable lower ball joint. I'm not going this route for now since I like to play in STS, but maybe down the road if I do a turbo swap and a diff...








But I think some of the things they have could change the Mk4's competitiveness significantly. How do you like the bladed swaybars?







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

I think that LCA is heavily modified and would be a pain to make fit. In the Beetle Cup catalog it shows a picture of their LCA and it is an Audi TT using a Beetle front sway. I would be interested though in finding out how those blade type fit around the axle and how to adapt the rear sway and those other bars to a regular GTi Those tie rod ends look pretty nice too, probably give really good steering input. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I've never had the LCA apart - does the ball joint attach like that to the LCA? If so, it seems really easy to machine a new lower ball joint (it's just a tapered hole, right?) from a solid chunk of metal and slot the holes for adjustment. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
Getting off topic - there is a hollow bar going through the rear axle. It looks to me like they stick something through that tube to use for a rear sway.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_I've never had the LCA apart - does the ball joint attach like that to the LCA? If so, it seems really easy to machine a new lower ball joint (it's just a tapered hole, right?) from a solid chunk of metal and slot the holes for adjustment. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
Getting off topic - there is a hollow bar going through the rear axle. It looks to me like they stick something through that tube to use for a rear sway. 

The stock lower control arm only has 3 holes in it to mount the balljoint. You need to buy the LCA/joint together to get them to work properly. I also believe that the spindle is different, so no piecing together a kit you need to drop some $$$ on all the VWMS goods. 
I think you could modify the balljoint to be slotted, or fabricate a new ball joint on your own. You could also slot the holes in the LCA for the ball joint to bolt to. I question the integrity of the joint wiht too much slotting. Perhaps a little on the Joint, and a little on the LCA woudl work well. A 1/4" of play might get you ~0.75 degrees more. 
The hollow bar in the rear is where they put their sway bar through. Pretty clever use of space.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

By the way, ran my first event on the SPC kit. Much much better. I didn't have any rollover at all with the 225 Azenis. I am still playing with pressures, though. I actually ran much HIGHER levels at the event to try to cure an odd handling issue that I haven't quite figured out.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I installed the SPC plates recently. I will be autoxing this weekend. Should I get an alingment after installing the kit. I would understand an alingment would hepful to get even camber side-to-side; but is the toe at all affected be these plates?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_I installed the SPC plates recently. I will be autoxing this weekend. Should I get an alingment after installing the kit. I would understand an alingment would hepful to get even camber side-to-side; but is the toe at all affected be these plates?


I think the toe can change a little bit with any suspension modification - even just removing and reinstalling struts. You should probably get that checked out before your event so you don't get any unexpected tire wear issues. For best turn-in you can have them set the toe to the max allowed by VW spec. Make sure you tell your shop that you have those aftermarket camber plates because some shops might not want to touch them.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

The toe will change with any change to caster on a McStrut suspension, and I think it changes with camber as well. Which is going to be the same thing with the SPC kit, since it's both at once. I have .25degree out and I don't really like it. It didn't make much of an improvement as far as I can tell, and it tracks all over. I would shoot for 0 toe. Mine was .5 degree in before the alignment, btw.


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

The toe definitly changes when camber is adjusted, it goes toe in. When I installed my plates that give 2.25 camber the toe in was drastic so I just eyeballed an alignment and gave it just a hair toe in.
In a front wheel car you want a little toe in, this is because the wheels are forced out (to 0)when it goes fast. A rear wheel car gets set a little toe out, that way when the car catches up to the front end, the result is 0 toe. Pretty sure that's what I learned in school....


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

noooo toe out in the rear for RWD = tail happy monster. Your right about the front drive though. You get lots of toe changes under heavy torque. Combined with the stock LCA bushings you get mega torque steer. A little toe in helps with this, and with turn in. This explains some of the immediate steering feel improvement from the camber plates. LCA's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif mod as well, so long as you can handle the bumps. 


_Modified by enginerd at 7:32 PM 8-31-2004_


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I know it's off topic, but I need to replace my lca bushings. They squeek constantly and I am sure the lca's squirm every wrong direction under loads. Does any one recommend ECS's lca bushings? $50 sounds like a deal for a complete set.


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## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_The toe definitly changes when camber is adjusted, it goes toe in. When I installed my plates that give 2.25 camber the toe in was drastic so I just eyeballed an alignment and gave it just a hair toe in.
In a front wheel car you want a little toe in, this is because the wheels are forced out (to 0)when it goes fast. A rear wheel car gets set a little toe out, that way when the car catches up to the front end, the result is 0 toe. Pretty sure that's what I learned in school....

Actually under acceleration a FWD car will have a tendency to toe in, so you want a little toe out to start with to be at zero when accelerating. I set my toe at 1/8 inch total toe out, works great.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (JoeVeeDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeVeeDubber* »_
Actually under acceleration a FWD car will have a tendency to toe in, so you want a little toe out to start with to be at zero when accelerating. I set my toe at 1/8 inch total toe out, works great.

Exactly. I have my front set to -0.08° toe out on each side for a total of -0.16°(Max oem spec for MkIV chassis)
BTW I believe the 1/8 inch measurement style is old school and is not accurate on all wheel sizes any more. If your alignment shop has new computerized equipment, everything should be reported in degrees.


----------



## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Exactly. I have my front set to -0.08° toe out on each side for a total of -0.16°(Max oem spec for MkIV chassis)
BTW I believe the 1/8 inch measurement style is old school and is not accurate on all wheel sizes any more. If your alignment shop has new computerized equipment, everything should be reported in degrees.

Oh, I wasn't referring to having an alignment shop doing the alignment, my friend made a custom setup with some pvc pipe to measure toe, we do it ourselves, it's really simple, all we have to go off of is inches or mm, so that's why I said 1/8inch.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_Pretty sure that's what I learned in school....

Sounds like I just got it backwards but at least I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Exactly. I have my front set to -0.08° toe out on each side for a total of -0.16°(Max oem spec for MkIV chassis)

...can i find these specs in a bentley manual?


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## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

FYI, the SPC Camber kit is on sale at nopionline.com I just got the kit for 132 and change shipped.


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## slick50 (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (jamesb)*

Anyone know what I should shoot for in terms of an alignment after installing the SPC plates? 
I need to have specs to give the alignment guy, he is only familiar with the oem settings.
Thanks


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (jamesb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesb* »_FYI, the SPC Camber kit is on sale at nopionline.com I just got the kit for 132 and change shipped.
THANKS!!!
Link to SPC Camber Kit at NopiOnline


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (eggroller)*

...just finished install of the spc plates. it doesn't look like as much of a change as i hoped, just by eye ball i cant tell too much changed. maybe i didnt look at it enough boefore the plates?... alignment monday or tuesday so i'll wait and see what the numbers turn out to be... install was smooth though, seems like quality parts http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...

...edit: the car does feel more sure of itself now. ...and i can notice a little more negative camber... i guess i wanted to see three degrees or something... 

_Modified by gelatin at 6:22 AM 9-6-2004_


_Modified by gelatin at 7:17 AM 9-6-2004_


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Which camber of the solutions will provide the most negative camber?


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOVAdub* »_Which camber of the solutions will provide the most negative camber? 


read the info of each kit on the first page of this thread, they are all listed:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1


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## knotcher (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: (slick50)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slick50* »_Anyone know what I should shoot for in terms of an alignment after installing the SPC plates? 
I need to have specs to give the alignment guy, he is only familiar with the oem settings.
Thanks 

go to another shop...you should be able to tell the guy something like, "I want a total of 1/16th toe out in the front and as much camber as you can get with both sides being equal". if the guy can't do it, go somewhere else.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_

read the info of each kit on the first page of this thread, they are all listed:
I was kind of looking to see what numbers people are getting when they throw the car on an alignment rack. So based on your response the shine plates offer the most camber?


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*

...i'll post my numbers by mid week i guess. and there was one kit in that list that was estimated at 2 degrees negative... 
edit: the -2 was from 2bennit ...


_Modified by gelatin at 12:59 PM 9-6-2004_


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOVAdub* »_Which camber of the solutions will provide the most negative camber? 

Mine are in development and are the most I have seen so far without cutting, 2.25 negative. Castor adjustment is also going to be available and independent of camber adjustment. Spherical bearing up top and hopefully I can afford to make them within 2 months.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_Mine are in development and are the most I have seen so far without cutting, 2.25 negative. Castor adjustment is also going to be available and independent of camber adjustment. Spherical bearing up top and hopefully I can afford to make them within 2 months.

definitely remember to post up with these... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (gelatin)*

i just got an alignment and it turns out i only have -0.8 and -0.5 in the way of camber with the SPC plates...
this is on a full-shine mk4 1.8t gti... i guess maybe i'll order the shine plates at the end of the month, but i'll try to do better with these first...








...right now i have them so the strut mounts are as close together as possible. i'll try with them more toward the engine... 


_Modified by gelatin at 9:16 AM 9-8-2004_


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*

How much camber did you start with before the SPC kit? My friend has the 2 Bennett kit and it's less than -2.0 degrees gain. I'm also working on a drop in kit with Ground Control that should get -2.3 which "may" be the most camber gain without modifications.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_How much camber did you start with before the SPC kit? 

...i wished i knew, man. i'm gonna try to get more out of this... the mount points are definitly closer to each other than they used to be but tonight i'll rotate them so they point more towards the engine and see what that gives...


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*

You'll get the most negative from rotating them so the bolts are closest together. If you think of that as the 'X' axis, and front to back is the 'Y'. The strut top inscribes a circle - lets center it at the center of the strut hole. If the bolt holes are on the X axis, pointing towards each other, that's the most negative camber you can get. Moving the hole a little forward or back as a much larger change on caster than camber. In fact, you can be almost 45degrees off of the X axis line and still have 75% of the maximum camber.
And the camber spec on the 20th/337/GLI is -0.50 +/- 0.25 I think. I think I ended with -1.5 or -1.25 in the front.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_You'll get the most negative from rotating them so the bolts are closest together. If you think of that as the 'X' axis, and front to back is the 'Y'. The strut top inscribes a circle - lets center it at the center of the strut hole. If the bolt holes are on the X axis, pointing towards each other, that's the most negative camber you can get. Moving the hole a little forward or back as a much larger change on caster than camber. In fact, you can be almost 45degrees off of the X axis line and still have 75% of the maximum camber.
And the camber spec on the 20th/337/GLI is -0.50 +/- 0.25 I think. I think I ended with -1.5 or -1.25 in the front.

...why does my camber suck so bad? the shine kit raised the front of the car but i really doubt i had +0.5 degrees camber before...
...and like i said a post or two back, the bolts are turned so they are as close together as can be...
EDIT::: i cant remember who all posted up numbers but i know autoXman and enginerd did. both of you guys have lower cars than me... how much do you guys think this is changing things? i looked at the mk4 geometry thread and from there i should still be able to see at least -1... 
...i'll add that there is some adjusting for me to do before i'll give up on these. its only gonna move the top of the strut a small amount but MAYBE i can get the extra ~.3-.5 degrees of negative camber...

_Modified by gelatin at 12:50 PM 9-8-2004_


_Modified by gelatin at 12:50 PM 9-8-2004_


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Comparing my car jacked up off the ground Vs lowered to 7" in the front was ~+0.6 degrees. So an inch may be 0.1 degrees of camber. Im not sure how linear this is, or how it applies when the suspension is loaded. 
This may add another spin to the debate of lowering or not lowering. Center of Gravity, Roll Center, and Camber all need to be considered. Will half a degree of negative camber, and a lower CG make up for roll center problems? Im just going to keep on raising and lowering until I find the fastest setup for my particular car. You can debate/analyze till your blue in the face, but nothing talks like data. Someone should setup a skid pad shootout, and slalom for different setups. 
You can also try to loosen the ball joint and push them out. Good for another 0.1 on each side. Then you can check your control arm bushings. If they are mush and pushed in that will hurt your camber as well. Good luck


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_ Good luck

...thanks. i've been trying to better my adjustment and i'll borrow camber and toe gagues tonight http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
...but i think the car feels better than it did which is making me think the difference between our three cars is simply the difference in raising/lowering...
...do the shine plates trash all the stock rubber along with the bearings? i mean with those plates whats between the camber plate and the spring perch? because if there is less between them than with the SPC kit i'd bet you get better camber just by having the car sit lower... 

right now i'm thinking i'll see how far i can go with SPC and note the elevation of the car. then try out the shine plates to see the changes... i'm thinking i wont get over -1 with the SPC


_Modified by gelatin at 9:03 AM 9-10-2004_


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

All of the designs are limited by the simple fact that the shaft of the strut must pass through the hole in the cars strut mount. Unless the hole get's bigger, or the shaft gets smaller one kit will not make more camber than the other. The shine kit, and the SPC kit get the strut shaft very close to the inside of the hole. If there is a noticable difference in static camber Id be shocked. I wouldn't spend any money on another kit if you already have one. If you want more camber than you have, you can start thinking about cutting the body, modifying control arms, ball joints, or spindles.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_All of the designs are limited by the simple fact that the shaft of the strut must pass through the hole in the cars strut mount. 

...yeah but you're missing one thing i think. the distance between the spring perch and the camber plate matters. the smaller that distance the lower the car would sit, which would change the camber. (correct?)seems like changing that distance should change the static camber. i'm betting the shine kit makes that distance far smaller than the SPC kit and i guess i think that because you can use a spherical bearing rather than the stock item which means the big rubber peice on top of the stock bearing is gone(SPC kit just replaces it with some metal). maybe i'm way off but it seems like the distance between the top of the spring and the camber plat will be at least a half inch smaller for the shine plate... i'm wrong a lot of the time so i could be wrong here. but from the photos there's just lots less material in the shine kit... we'll wait and see what numbers i can get tomorrow before thinking too hard... my theory could disolve...

edit: i am looking into spindles but the only ones i've found were 850!!! too high for me...


_Modified by gelatin at 12:21 PM 9-10-2004_


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*

I am having the same thing going on with my prototype plates. It's difficult getting the same installed height as a stock setup with a spherical bearing because of the mounting placement and the thickness of materials. On my first set (installed on coilovers), the installed height was only about an 1/8th inch difference on the spring but when I installed it on the car, it lifted the car about 1/2 an inch. I was just able to correct the height by lowering the coils 1/4 inch (the car was a little low to begin with so we didn't go all the way to where it was).
My next set should be done soon and should have a closer to stock installation. I want it that way so anyone can use the same parts for stock or coilovers. 
I hope that kind of helped explain things.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_I am having the same thing going on with my prototype plates. It's difficult getting the same installed height as a stock setup with a spherical bearing because of the mounting placement and the thickness of materials. On my first set (installed on coilovers), the installed height was only about an 1/8th inch difference on the spring but when I installed it on the car, it lifted the car about 1/2 an inch. I was just able to correct the height by lowering the coils 1/4 inch (the car was a little low to begin with so we didn't go all the way to where it was).


...yeah this is exactly what i'm thinking about. however, i'm wanting the shine plates now because it eliminates alot of the material between the plate and the spring...(or in my understanding it does) the lowering should produce added camber. weather or not the lowering has adverse effects on the LCA geometry which negate that camber while turning remains to be seen...but i'd trust shine any day. how much camber are you getting with your prototypes, hans?
edited to add that it looks like the SPC kit raised my car a bit...i had a nose-up look in the first place but i think its more exagerated now...


_Modified by gelatin at 2:03 PM 9-10-2004_


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_...yeah this is exactly what i'm thinking about. however, i'm wanting the shine plates now because it eliminates alot of the material between the plate and the spring...(or in my understanding it does) the lowering should produce added camber. weather or not the lowering has adverse effects on the LCA geometry which negate that camber while turning remains to be seen...but i'd trust shine any day. how much camber are you getting with your prototypes, hans?

I am getting about 2.25 without cutting the strut caps. The beauty about a spherical bearing design is you do loose a lot of parts. There is a bearing replacement that sits on the upper spring perch and contacts the bottom of the spherical bearing, then you just have a bolt to hold it down on the top. Shines plates are super simple because they don't offer any adjustment without taking them off and redrilling. Mine have more parts but do offer that adjustability, that's why I wanted to build my own.
I would have thought the SPC would give an almost exact height as stock because they install just like stock, but placed in an eccentric housing.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (hans j)*

I've also been about to get about -2.5 degrees camber with the prototype I have.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_
Shines plates are super simple because they don't offer any adjustment without taking them off and redrilling.

...i've got a machinist buddy that i'll get to slot the holes on shine's plates so i can adjust them.
...i've been adjusting my spc plates all afternoon. i'll autox sunday and get an alignment tuesday and hope for better numbers... otherwise i'll be calling shine... what kind of price range are you guys shooting for with your plates?


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_...i've got a machinist buddy that i'll get to slot the holes on shine's plates so i can adjust them.

Good Idea http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_what kind of price range are you guys shooting for with your plates?
 
No Idea, price would probably be based on cost of manufacture, market demand, and whether I can eat any food weeks after I get them made.
Finally got some pics of them...
20th with Koni Coilovers next to 337 with FK coilovers








And a more narrow angle of the 337 








This was also the same 337 that competed in the privateer portion European Car 1.8T challenge, sure wish I had these on for that!!
edit: had to make the pictures work and easier to see



_Modified by hans j at 9:41 AM 9-13-2004_


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*

pics no worky for me...


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_pics no worky for me...

right click view image.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

...pics work now, thanks hans. 
...i wish my car had that kind of camber... the rear wheels still have more than the front in my case. what camber i do have is a vast inprovement though. autocrossing yesterday went really well... i'd never done as well before...


_Modified by gelatin at 1:00 PM 9-13-2004_


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Any quick guesstemate (wtf) on how camber that pic shows?


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_Any quick guesstemate (wtf) on how camber that pic shows?

...hans has posted that he gets near -2.25 degrees, so i'd be inclined to gues around -2 at least... the rear wheels on my car have -1 degree and you can see the front camber in those pics is easily greater than the camber on the rear http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ... what i've learned from starting to mess with camber: its adictive...


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I have the SPC plates; and the 337 does not appear to have noticably more camber than my car. SPC claims to add 1.25.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*

I measured really quick with a Longacre camber caster gauge my friend had and it came up to about 2.25. The owner of the car hasen't had time to go to an alignment shop to see what it actually is yet though.
Anyone who has driven the car has said it drives drastically different with camber. The 337 also has poly control arm bushings and when I do a new front sway I am going to put in poly bushings there and spherical bearing endlinks. That should make the input much better, then on to playing with spring rates.


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Ok so I got the SPC kit from nopi for a great price. Now before I go off installing stuff I wonder if I am better off paying a shop to install them on the rack. My worry is that this kit moves camber and caster at the same time. Enough that things could be screwed up enough to blow out my rack or steering pump just trying to back out of the driveway.
Out of all of you that have installed this kit, whats your general view on this? How much caster change does the kit create? Or am I just better off pay the shop to do it all and be on the safe side.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (jamesb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesb* »_
Out of all of you that have installed this kit, whats your general view on this? How much caster change does the kit create? Or am I just better off pay the shop to do it all and be on the safe side.

...just work at home dude. it'll be fine. my caster angles didnt change much...


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_I have the SPC plates; and the 337 does not appear to have noticably more camber than my car. SPC claims to add 1.25. 

... is your car lowered? i have a "shined" car which sits slightly higher than stock up front and my camber was nowhere near -2 degrees. i'm thinking this is largely due to differences in lowering... also, what spring rates on your car? ...


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

I am dropped down about 2" running -.8 camber (max I could get out of the ball joints.) I am shooting for 1.5 in the front once the kit is in.
anything is better then what I have right now. Now that I know its not much of an issue im set. im assuming you just set it so your strut bolts point each other.

I will take some pictures too.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (jamesb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesb* »_ im assuming you just set it so your strut bolts point each other.

...yeah that should work. i ended up borrowing a camber gauge and just adjusting each side to its maximum. they point at each other but maybe a wee bit towards the engine... 
...what spring rates are you using?


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

-shrug- never looked into it. PSS9 kit running 2 on front rebound, 2 on rear rebound, 25mm front sway, 28mm rear sway. If I had the pss9 kit specs I could get the total spring rate each corner.
Downside is after all this I have to go through the corner weighting process all over again and then align it.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (jamesb)*

Nopi has the SPC kits on sale for $57.79 per side.
I just ordered a pair with shipping to Seattle for $128.52
You have to make an account on their site, fill in your car details and then browse the sale items for your car.


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

yeap, went on sale the day after I ordered. So I called them and they took care of me.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (jamesb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesb* »_-shrug- never looked into it. PSS9 kit running 2 on front rebound, 2 on rear rebound, 25mm front sway, 28mm rear sway. If I had the pss9 kit specs I could get the total spring rate each corner.
Downside is after all this I have to go through the corner weighting process all over again and then align it.

pss9 spring rates are 400lb/in frt and 315 rear. BUT the rear is a progressive spring rate.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
... is your car lowered? i have a "shined" car which sits slightly higher than stock up front and my camber was nowhere near -2 degrees. i'm thinking this is largely due to differences in lowering... also, what spring rates on your car? ...

I have Eibach Pro-kits with Koni yellows. I believe the lowering is a about 1.25"-1.5". I do not know the spring rates. I wish they were published.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

I just read they were close to stock, just lower height. I did a search in the archives and found it, you might also check here http://www.dubbed-out.net/spring_rates.htm


----------



## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

Back up to the front page!
I'm ready to go with the SPS plates. Any other experiences lately?
I'm running STS in Solo II, engine and exhaust mods won't help me much, but negative camber will get me around corners better.


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (keycom)*

I installed the SPC mounts yesterday. I was hoping to do this a couple months ago when I had everything apart while installing Bilstein Sports/H&R Race/CPP swaybar links/Prothane CA bushings. Oh well, I was able to install everything without removing the struts from the spindles so that was good. I measured camber prior to the install using a SmartCamber gauge and got -0.7 degrees on the right front and -0.3 degrees on the left front. The rears were at -1.2 on the right and -1.3 on the left. I wasn't too thrilled to see that much of a difference up front--I tried tweaking the lower ball joint location after the initial suspension install a few months ago and didn't really get anywhere. Anyway, after installing the SPC mounts and setting them for maximum negative camber and no change to caster, I got -1.6 degrees ON BOTH SIDES. I got lucky with my initial settings and didn't have to tweak at all. That never happens.







I had to adjust toe a bit to get back to neutral--I may tweak a bit more to get just a hair of toe out.
I haven't had much of a chance to really drive like a maniac yet, but it does feel like the car sticks much better when thrown into a corner. So far, so good! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif One minor issue with the install. the SPC instructions say to make sure that the pin in the plate that sits on top of the strut tower (in the engine compartment) must engage the square cutouts in the plates below. The pin was not even close to engaging the square holes. I don't think there's any way that the assembly can move since everything is torqued to spec, but it was a little disappointing that it didn't go together as expected.
-Wayne


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_Oh well, I was able to install everything without removing the struts from the spindles so that was good...



_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_... I got -1.6 degrees ON BOTH SIDES


Hey good stuff Wayne! Those are some awesome camber numbers! Can you please describe in more detail how you did the install though? I thought you had to remove the struts from the car? If there is an easier way, I'd like to list it on page 1 for everyone. Please list all the tools you used too.
Thanks,
Dan


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

.... i didn't remove the strut on the driver's side. there's less room on the other side and you even have to unbolt the axle from the "drive flange". 
...anyway, about what wayne says about not getting the pin in the upper plate to engage the square holes in the other parts... mine is the same way. when its torqued down they meet up but it seems like it could have been done a little better... i'm also having trouble with the passenger side plate moving. seems the nut on top of everything keeps wiggling lose. i used lock tite and propper torque but still... its a bummer...


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

.... i didn't remove the strut on the driver's side. there's less room on the other side and you even have to unbolt the axle from the "drive flange". i did take the passenger side strut out completely.
...anyway, about what wayne says about not getting the pin in the upper plate to engage the square holes in the other parts... mine is the same way. when its torqued down they meet up but it seems like it could have been done a little better... i'm also having trouble with the passenger side plate moving. seems the nut on top of everything keeps wiggling lose. i used lock tite and propper torque but still... its a bummer...


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I have a feeling that the only reason that I was able to do the install "in car" was because of the H&R Race springs. The free length of the springs are such that there is minimal tension on the springs while installing/removing the strut nut. I'll describe the process anyway in case it would be worth a try with stock springs which have a longer free length.
1) Support front of vehicle using jack stands and remove front wheels.
2) Pop off top-out cap covers (in engine compartment).
3) Using jack, compress strut from under control arm--the further out toward the ball joint, the better. I placed a block of wood under the 3 bolts for the ball joint and used a bottle jack to lift the end of the control arm. Pump jack until the car JUST starts to lift off the jack stand.
4) Remove top-out cover nut using 22mm socket. I zinged mine off using a 22mm impact socket and air impact, however, it is recommended to use the proper removal tool (which I do have).
5) Remove top-out cover.
6) Remove upper strut mounting nut using a 21mm socket. I also zinged this one off using a 22mm impact socket and air impact. It is also recommmeded that the proper removal too be used and I did make one using a deep well 22mm with flats machined one the end to hold using a 7/8 open end wrench. It's just easier to remove using the air impact.
7) Slowly bleed off pressure from the jack to lower the strut assembly from the strut tower. Once the strut is fully extended, the strut SHOULD fall out of the strut tower. HERE'S WHERE I'm NOT SURE THIS WILL WORK FOR STOCK SPRINGS. I don't know if this step will allow enough clearance to do the following steps.
8) Remove the upper strut nut and upper strut mount (big rubber block) from under the strut tower. This is done from the wheel well.
9) The upper spring cap and ball bearing are retained so keep them on top of the spring and centered on the strut shaft if possible.
10) Finagle (yes, I said "finagle") the SPC bearing holder onto the top of the strut assembly such that it drops onto the shaft and the bearing is seated in the cup on the underside.
11) Finagle the strut tower mount into position onto the top of the strut assembly such that is is seated on the bearing holder. The bearing holder has a step and the mount has a cutout so they fit together like Tetris pieces.
12) Drop the round adjustment plate onto the rubber mount.
13) *I needed a helper for this step* While eyeballing the strut rod, slowly compress the strut assembly from under the control arm (bottle jack) until a few threads of the strut shaft comes through the adjustment plate.
14) Install original upper strut mount nut.
15) Orient the mount and the round adjustment plate such that the square holes are aligned.
16) Using a 3/8" drive ratchet and an extension, rotate assembly to desired location.
17) Torque upper strut mount nut to 44 ft-lbs. using whatever means you have. I used my modified 22mm socket, held the nut in place using a 7/8 open end wrench, and torqued using a 3/8" drive 8mm hex bit (Bilstein strut shaft) and torque wrench.
18) Install SPC top-out cover and torque to 30 ft-lbs using upper strut nut tool. They say to make sure that the pin on the underside of the cap aligns with the square holes in the mount, but I'd estimate that the end of the pin was about 1/4" away from the square hole once full assembled. Go figure...
19) Bleed off pressure from the jack.
20) Install wheels, get car on the ground, torque lug bolts, align car, and have one of these...








Good luck!
-Wayne


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Wayne92SLC)*

...mine went on top of shine springs. no need for a spring compressor with them either...
...


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## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Back to the FRONT page!


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## NOok (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*

I have these specialty products kits in hand and in stock pretty much all the time. I got the first crate from SPC. The manufacturer they were using at first, didn't do a good enough job on them, and they had to send it to a new manufacturer to put out, thus the delays. I'd be glad to send a set at a discount to soemone who would be interested in doing a pictoral write up on the install and evaluation. ( Someone/shop with some experience doing complete strut assmebly R&Rs )










_Modified by NOok at 12:17 PM 9-26-2004_


_Modified by NOok at 12:29 PM 9-26-2004_


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## NOok (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_SPC also have rear camber shims. Don't know if I like the idea.









HI, I saw the mention about these shims. We've been using these since they first came out for other cars for years, and I have been abusing a set in my 84 GTI for a couple years now. These work dandy, and are a very simple and inexpensive solution to the rear alignment. We've been using SPCs rear shims in just about any car that can use them for years, and they work like a champ! SPC also has a nifty little wrench made so you can get the rear hub off as one unit in no time, it makes installation a total breeze in the driveway.
Unless you slide sideways into a curb at 60+ MPH, you aren't going to hurt the shim. Even then, I bet you will find other things on the car to worry about, and need a different shim to fix your new alignment anyway!
I'd be glad to send a set to someone to try out and write up a review on.









N


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (NOok)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOok* »_ The manufacturer they were using at first, didn't do a good enough job on them, and they had to send it to a new manufacturer to put out, thus the delays. 

_Modified by NOok at 12:17 PM 9-26-2004_

_Modified by NOok at 12:29 PM 9-26-2004_

....so did any of the poorly machined peices make it to market?


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## NOok (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
....so did any of the poorly machined peices make it to market?

NO way, SPC would never do that. I think it had to do with the rubber portions.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (NOok)*

The initial SPC kits had issues with the rubber delaminating from the steel which held up the production. The SPC kits are very affordable but not the best out there from a performance standpoint.


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (NOok)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOok* »_I have these specialty products kits in hand and in stock pretty much all the time. I got the first crate from SPC. The manufacturer they were using at first, didn't do a good enough job on them, and they had to send it to a new manufacturer to put out, thus the delays. I'd be glad to send a set at a discount to soemone who would be interested in doing a pictoral write up on the install and evaluation. ( Someone/shop with some experience doing complete strut assmebly R&Rs )


Bummer.... wish you posted this before I ordered my SPC camber kits from you this past Friday! No prob though... I am working on setting up a appointment in the next few weeks with Mike P. (tyrolkid) to install them along with a set of Nuespeed Sofsports and Koni adjustables that I have ready to go on my GTI. If I can arrange it, I'll take pics of the install.
P.S. Thanks for the quick turnaround on the order!


_Modified by RichB at 12:26 AM 9-27-2004_


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*SPC - Camber kit*

For those with the SPC camber kit I'm kind of curious how you tightened the outer locking nut. I've got the kit in front of my and it looks as if there is no way to fit a socket of the thing.


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (laurent)*

I used a 22mm SP (Speciality Products) socket that has flats on the outside like a spark plug socket. It has a bigger hole through the middle so you can get a 3/8" drive hex bit through there to hold the strut shaft.
-Wayne


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_I used a 22mm SP (Speciality Products) socket that has flats on the outside like a spark plug socket. It has a bigger hole through the middle so you can get a 3/8" drive hex bit through there to hold the strut shaft.
-Wayne

...which doesn't work if you have Konis. Just a HU.


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_...which doesn't work if you have Konis. Just a HU.

Well, that's the case here. I've got KW coilovers which basically use Koni shocks...


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## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (laurent)*

If you have a Koni shock or Koni insert just reuse the koni locking nut and your problem is solved.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

With the Konis, you cannot hold the shaft with a hex key inside a slotted socket. The Konis need 2 wrenches to tighten them. My shop had to use a pro-strength impact wrench - my home unit couldn't get it tight enough.


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
...which doesn't work if you have Konis. Just a HU.

Ahhh...got it. I've never worked with Koni's--only stock, Bilstein, and KYB.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (Wayne92SLC)*

If you have koni's you can just use the same socket with the flats on it, just instead of using an allen wrench, use a 1/4" drive socket on a long extension. No problem. 
I have found that after tightening the lower part of the assy, I can tighten/loosen the upper nut without having it spin on the spc kit. No big deal.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_If you have koni's you can just use the same socket with the flats on it, just instead of using an allen wrench, use a 1/4" drive socket on a long extension. No problem. 

That's a good idea. I had not tried that, but I think I will pick one up and give it a shot. I don't think the shop got one side fully tight, as there is a 'thunk' from that side on bumps - and it isn't the swaybar. Sounds just like the swaybar 'clunk', though - so I think it's a loose component in the strut.


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (AutoXMan)*

Only problem with that is that I am no longer able to fit a socket on the upper part of the strut after the previous install stripped the heck out of it. I'll just jack up the strut as far as I can and hopefully it will stay in place like enginerd suggested.
Thanks for the advice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (laurent)*

I just got a set of the SPC Camber Kits from Nook last week (BTW, thanks for the fast delivery Nook http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ). Since I had a convenient excuse to be near NYC last week, I contacted Mike (Tyrolkid) @ TyrolSport to make an appointment to have them installed along with a set of Koni Adjustable Shocks and Neuspeed SofSport springs.








Mike's shop (TyrolSport) may be small, but he and his crew know allot about MKIVs and thier suspensions. It was also a pleasure to have a group of guys work on my car who are obviously enthusiasts and work on your car like it was thier own. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I was able to watch each step of the install and learned a few handy tricks should I ever have to remove or install my suspension myself. 
Mike's crew also works quickly, so in a short period of time (and a break for lunch for some great Pizza!). Mike was tossing my GTi around the block giving the new susepnsion a thorough test and a http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to the SPCs. We set the SPCs for max negative camber which looks to be around 1 to 1.5 degrees (once I get the alignment checked after things have had a chance to settle a little, I will post what the final numbers are) and the Koni's to 50% rebound front and rear.








The result (as you can imagine) is a significant transformation in the ride and handling of the car. It is obvious now that the tires are working more like they should. So far, I've put around 350 miles on the car since the install (some driving around Westchester Cty, then the drive back home to the 'cuse and some local backroad testing







) and the SPCs are holding tight and working great. I'm really looking forward to doing some autoX next year with this set-up.


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## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: SPC - Camber kit (RichB)*

anyone else have the SPC kits??... how do you like them??...


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I have had the SPC kit for about 2 months. Nothing but thumbs-up here. All the pieces seem look to be engineered well and very durable. (important on WI roads)
Turn-in is quicker and the overall grip seems higher. I have lost the understeer that had plagued the car before. Worth the ~$160, although, I would spend my suspension money last on camber. (after getting springs/konis, rsb)


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## mxman (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Surfkahakai)*

i find it hilarious people are scared of camber shims for the rear THATS HOW THEY SET THE CAMBER FROM THE FACTORY @$_%[email protected](%@


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (mxman)*

How much are the rear shims and how much camber can you get?


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (mxman)*

Not scared of them - just don't need them. Rear camber is like -1.5 on both sides, if I remember right.


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Not scared of them - just don't need them. Rear camber is like -1.5 on both sides, if I remember right.

Not bad. Any idea on what the price was?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (16vracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16vracer* »_Not bad. Any idea on what the price was?

they're not that expensive. its more of the idea of if they are really needed or not. they're also a pain to install, as u gotta pull the rear brakes off and junk, and i can't quite remember if that requires pressing in new wheelbearings or something weird like that.
http://www.prosuspension.com/6017.html


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_ its more of the idea of if they are really needed or not.

..yeah. i'd think they're not. i dont know about the rest of you but its usualy the front end of my car that needs help...


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_..yeah. i'd think they're not. i dont know about the rest of you but its usualy the front end of my car that needs help...

then u also have to think about the idea of how much weight is in the rear of the car. the rear is relatively light compared to the frt of the car, and the rear already has about 1 degree or so of negative camber, so that should be just about enough. toe wise the car mite benefit from a lil less toe in when its dropped, but that's really about it. i'm sure a lil bit more negative wouldn't hurt, but it isn't a must, as much as the frt.


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## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

So how are the SPC units on the street? Is this a streetable mod, or should they be reserved for the race-only cars (like the Shine units)?


_Modified by keycom at 10:55 AM 10-11-2004_


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (keycom)*

I think any setup is streetable, it just depends on whether you like the squishy feel of stock upper strut bushings. The spherical bearing definitely transmits more road feel through the car but some people like the feel and responsiveness of it.


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (keycom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *keycom* »_So how are the SPC units on the street? Is this a streetable mod, or should they be reserved for the race-only cars (like the Shine units)?

_Modified by keycom at 10:55 AM 10-11-2004_

I noticed a SLIGHT amount of additional harshness the first time I took the car out for a cruise after the SPC install, but by the time I got home, I didn't notice anything. It's pretty subtle--I don't notice it at all now.
-Wayne


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (keycom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *keycom* »_So how are the SPC units on the street? Is this a streetable mod, or should they be reserved for the race-only cars (like the Shine units)?


No Compliants here either... I would say the SPCs are very streetable. The part on these that acts as the upper strut bushing felt a little bit harder/firmer than my stock upper bushings which came off the car. The combination of these with my new shocks and springs (which all went on the car at the same time) does transmit a little bit more road vibration to the cabin, but what I'm feeling probably has more to do with the shocks/springs than the cmaber kits.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (RichB)*

bump for QT_GTI


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## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

Keeping it up top! Just ordered my set of SPC's last night.


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## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: (keycom)*

TTT


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Feedback*

Had the SPC kit installed for roughly two weeks now and it feels absolutely great. The only complaint I have at this point is noise coming from the passenger side strut that I have not been able to eliminate entirely. 
When I had first installed the kit this noise, best described as a groaning you would expect coming from deep within the bowels of an old wooden ship, was noticeable everytime the steering wheel was turned. The SPC assembly wasn't moving freely enough causing the upper spring plate to rotate and the upper control spring of my KW coilovers with it.
The upper strut bearing checked out fine, as in it wasn't crushed and rotated freely. What I did notice however was that the part of the SPC kit that sits on top of the upper strut bearing showed noticeable wear. I wish I had taken pictures but unfortunately I didn't have a camera handy.
The rubber coating of this part must have gotten caught somehow causing part of the rubber coating to seperate from the plate and gumming up the opening for the strut. 
After removing the rubber that had seperated and torquing everything back to spec the noise disappeared.
This took care of the noise when turning the steering wheel but unfortunately I am still getting that very same noise now with the car moving at speeds < 5mph, whether the wheel is turned or not.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (mxman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mxman* »_i find it hilarious people are scared of camber shims for the rear THATS HOW THEY SET THE CAMBER FROM THE FACTORY @$_%[email protected](%@

Not from the VW factory!!! I don't see the need for these shims on a street car-if the rear alignment is off, then the axle is bent. The rear has plenty of negative camber for street use, and if you want more for race use, then the plastic ones are not suitable. Given the heat generated during hard repeated braking, the shims soften and allow the bolts to loosen and fret.
Steel shims are available.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (bobqzzi)*

are the spc shims plastic or metal, i believe the bildon ones are metal right???


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## Kanoa9321 (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (rex_racer)*

Incase anyone is intrested I am selling my TT Control Arms
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1640034


----------



## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

To: "laurent"

_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_The initial SPC kits had issues with the rubber delaminating from the steel which held up the production. . . .


Sounds like you got one of the early production ones, or they still haven't solved the problem.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (keycom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *keycom* »_To: "laurent"

Sounds like you got one of the early production ones, or they still haven't solved the problem.









...sometimes mine sound like someone is pounding on the wall of a submarine... i checked and its not that i have the rubber coming off like laurent. do you guys think the car was set up(from factory) so that with the stock caster, the axis of rotation for turning the front wheels was straight through the strut?(or at least very close) ...once we change the camber with these plates the caster changes too and maybe the axis of rotation and the strut no longer coincide. sure, it didn't move much but with the front end weighing so much, is it possible that this causes the bearing to bind and not rotate as freely as it should? maybe a spherical bearing is the way it should be done...
edit:: to get rid of my noise i changed to 30ftlb of torque on the "first" nut(cuz i dont know what else to call it). i still use 44 on the pinch nut on top... noise free since friday when i messed with it...


_Modified by gelatin at 7:29 AM 10-25-2004_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

SPC Install Notes:
This guide can be used to install any top strut mount including OEM mounts, camber plates, lowering caps, etc. Check out the: strut tool guide as well.
References:
# Noah's guide
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...27185 (I basically used this guide and added the step of disconnecting the front swaybar from Noah's guide. This makes it easier to get in there for folks with oem length springs.
Install Prep:
# Loosen wheel lugs one turn
# Safely jack up car
# Remove wheel lugs and wheel
# Raise control arm slightly with a bottle jack
# Remove lower swaybar end-link bolt (16mm) (swaybar may be under tension so be careful - it may pop out and hit your hand when you remove the bolt.)
# Raise bottle jack all the way
# Use a strut spring compressor to safely hold the spring in place
# Remove outer nut and top strut plate
# Lower the bottle jack all the way
# Remove the old strut mount. Pay attention to the Bentley manual. The strut mount can come out without having to remove the inner strut nut first. (Mine was mushed together with the bearing so it was really hard to get it off. But it was even harder trying to get the nut off with the strut mount still in place.)
# loosen inner strut nut and remove donut-shaped bearing cartridge.
Install:
# If you are installing OEM mounts, follow the Bentley shop manual for the proper stacking order of the OEM components. Install is the reverse of removal. Here is a pic to get you started: http://peterpyce.com/Shine/Sap...1.jpg Note the 10mm spacer piece which may or may not come on your car depending on model year/options.
# If you are installing SPC camber plates continue on:
# Install the SPC plates and a new OEM bearing in place of the old strut mounts as described in the instruction sheet. Make sure the square holes are lined up! Note, you do not need to remove the strut to do this! Just get a friend to help if you have short arms.
# Raise the bottle jack all the way again and guide strut into the strut tower opening
# Install a rachet extension into the square holes - make sure it engages all the way
# Torque the inner nut to 44 ft-lbs. Some folks have reported better results when torquing slightly less than this
# Remove the ratchet extension
# Remove the strut spring compressor
# Install SPC top plate and make sure the peg is lined up with the square hole.
# Install and slowly torque outer nut to 30 ft-lbs ensuring that peg is still inside the square hole. Rubber surround for the top plate should cover the strut tower evenly. If it is slanting off to the side, loosen the nut and try again. If slanting continues, inspect the plate bottom and make sure it is flat. If it is bent, you may need to flatten it or get a replacement from SPC. Applying pressure to to opposite side of the plate will help keep it flat as you are torquing the nut.
Finishing up:
# Lower the bottle jack until the swaybar is aligned with the control arm
# Replace swaybar bolt and torque to 44 ft-lbs
# Lower bottle jack all the way
# Replace wheel & torque lug bolts to 89 ft-lbs using alternating star pattern
# Lower car off jack stands
Adjusting the alignment
# setup alignment rig
# record current alignment settings
# loosen top nut and remove top plate
# take load off of suspension with lift, but keep all 4 tires in contact with the ground
# loosen inner nut 1-2 turns
# use 3/8" ratchet extension in the square pegs to rotate plates to get desired caster/camber on each side
# torque inner nut to 44 ft-lbs
# remove ratchet extension
# lower lift and re-seat the springs by pushing on the 4 corners of the car a few times
# Install top plate and ensure peg engages the square hole.
# Install and slowly torque outer nut to 30 ft-lbs ensuring that peg is still inside the square hole. Rubber surround for the top plate should cover the strut tower evenly. If it is slanting off to the side, loosen the nut and try again. If slanting continues, inspect the plate bottom and make sure it is flat. If it is bent, you may need to flatten it or get a replacement from SPC. Applying pressure to to opposite side of the plate will help keep it flat as you are torquing the nut.
# Re-check alignment settings
Special Tools
# 16mm socket
# 13/16" spark plug socket with 15/16" crowfoot wrench or equivalent
# 7/8" oxygen sensor socket with 1" crowfoot wrench or equivalent
# 7mm long hex key
# strut spring compressor

Regular tools
# ratchet
# torque wrench
# sockets, adapters, ratchet extensions, etc
# jack stands
# bottle jack
# floor jack
# latex gloves

First impressions
# Turn-in is definitely improved - even without an alignment
# Ride is a bit noisier
# Ride height appears unaffected

Alignment specs
Before:
LF: -0.3° camber +7.5° caster, -0.08° toe
RF: +0.2 camber, +8.1° caster, -0.08° toe
After:
LF -1.2° camber, +7.6° caster, -0.08° toe
RF -0.9° camber, +7.8° caster, -0.08° toe
With me in the car, camber was more equal at -1.1° & -1.0° camber.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Replace swaybar bolt and torque to 44 ft-lbs?


...i believe you are correct sir......kind of surprised you dont have more camber to start with. your car sits a little lower than stock right?


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*

loosen your ball joint bolts. Pull out on the bottom of the tire, and retighten. You will pick up more negative camber 0.1 - 0.2 deg on both sides. Even torqued to spec it stays there too, no worries about it sliding back. even with r-compounds and an azzwhoopin


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
...i believe you are correct sir......kind of surprised you dont have more camber to start with. your car sits a little lower than stock right?

Yeah I crunched up a rim and buggered up the suspension on a curb a couple years ago. Shop said they fixed it and the frame was straight, but the alignment has never been 100% since then...
I will try to get a little more camber by re-torquing the balljoint and/or subframe bolts before getting the alignment.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I have had the spc plates on for 2 months. Up until the past two weeks I have had no problems. But in the last two weeks, the bushings have made a squeek and groan over every bump and load change (accelerate, brake, corner). I retorqued the top to nuts to spec (44lbs & 34lbs IIRC). They still squeek and groan. Anyone else having issues? 
I will research the problem further when I have time and decent weather.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
I will try to get a little more camber by re-torquing the balljoint and/or subframe bolts before getting the alignment.

Loosening and re-torquing the balljoint bolts didn't seem to help. There really wasn't any play in the bolt holes. Getting an alignment tomorrow and will report back on that.


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_I have had the spc plates on for 2 months. Up until the past two weeks I have had no problems. But in the last two weeks, the bushings have made a squeek and groan over every bump and load change (accelerate, brake, corner). I retorqued the top to nuts to spec (44lbs & 34lbs IIRC). They still squeek and groan. Anyone else having issues? 
I will research the problem further when I have time and decent weather.

Same thing here, only on the passenger side though. I've removed the upper plate and found some signs of wear on the peg that goes into the two square holes. The plate seems to have bent and as a result that peg no longer fits far enough into the hole causing the upper plate to rotate when under load.
I took a few shots but they all came out kind of blurry, this is the best one I've got. I hope it illustrate what I'm talking about. Note the wear marks on the peg from sliding out of the hole.










_Modified by laurent at 8:25 PM 10-31-2004_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (laurent)*

Weird, my SPC top plate doesn't look like that. The peg and the bottom of the plate don't extend nearly as far. In fact, the peg doesn't even come close to engaging the square hole in the mount...


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Weird, my SPC top plate doesn't look like that. The peg and the bottom of the plate don't extend nearly as far. In fact, the peg doesn't even come close to engaging the square hole in the mount...

Isn't engaging with the square hole in the mount the sole purpose of it, what other use could is possible have?


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (laurent)*









That looks like my top plate; kind of marred up. I am 100% sure the two parts are aligned when assembling. I put locktite on the nuts and I recheck the torque weekly. I know everything is staying tight.
Hopefully most of the sound is coming from my worn out lca bushings; but there is definelty sound emitted from above. (strut towers)


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_But in the last two weeks, the bushings have made a squeek and groan over every bump and load change (accelerate, brake, corner). I retorqued the top to nuts to spec (44lbs & 34lbs IIRC). They still squeek and groan. Anyone else having issues? 

YES! I am having this same issue. God, the sound is horrible. At first I thought it was my swaybar because I had taken the bushings out a few months ago and re-installed them (had polys that didn't fit). So I took them out and regreased them - but no difference. It happens mostly when braking or acclerating as the drivers' wheel goes up and down. I could actually grab the top of the strut mount inside the engine bay and make it squeak a little - with all my weight back and forth on it.
So you think the peg is wearing? If so, what do you do to prevent it? Should there be a thin rubber washer between the two plates? I have GOT to make this stop. I think the passengers' side is ok because a shop had to torque it down with an impact wrench - so maybe it's overtight and isn't moving. On the drivers' side I have about stripped the Koni shaft trying to get it tight enough. Might have to buy another. Please, we need to work on this!


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

both pegs on mine have broken off. i used to get the groaning from the pass-side, but i retorqued everything and now the noise is on the driver-side. go figure. i'm thinking the problem is the axis of rotation, when you turn the wheel, doesn't go straight through the bearing like it did before the plates. this makes the bearing bind and makes the plates want to move... so we get the groaning and wear on the little pins...or in my case, missing pins...spherical bearing is better...just my two cents but i'm totally hating these stupid plates...


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
So you think the peg is wearing? If so, what do you do to prevent it? Should there be a thin rubber washer between the two plates? I have GOT to make this stop. I think the passengers' side is ok because a shop had to torque it down with an impact wrench - so maybe it's overtight and isn't moving. *On the drivers' side I have about stripped the Koni shaft trying to get it tight enough.* Might have to buy another. Please, we need to work on this!

...i doubt that what you hear is the pin wearing. i think what you hear is the plate moving. in my case the sound is the plate trying to move because the bearing isn't able to do its job. i bolded the part of your comment that worries me most. i dont want to ruin my struts with these plates. i'm seeking replacement ASAP.


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## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

i just put mine on and they are squeeking like a bed in a $5 wh*rehouse.. i am not getting any grinding or clunking, but alot of rubber squeeking.. 
i took the caps off yesterday and found my pegs are marred up too.. i cant really tell if it is aligned with the holes.. i retorqued everything with no improvement.. i will try to post some pics later..

_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_








That looks like my top plate; kind of marred up.


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

The sound is absolutely maddening. I've greased the sucker up when I had the top off and the sound was for the most eliminated but now it's back with a vengeance.
The only cure I have found for now is to turn the stereo up a few notches. Without music it's so bad that I am certain you could use the noise to extract vital information out of the supposed terrorists in Cuantanamo Bay.


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## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: (laurent)*

here are some pics of mine.. not sure why it is crooked, pics on page 7 dont look like mine.. i took mine apart and re-installed with no benefit.. i think maybe the peg is not in the hole, but i cant really tell.. i posted earlier that i too had some wear on my peg (as pictured above), to me it looked like the peg caught the side of the hole did not go in -- to help the peg, i ground a small chamfer on the end of the peg in hope it would slip in if it was close..
















funny how all these problems show up a few days after i install mine








PS: this is on a bug (if the pics look a little weird) -- whats even better is i have to remove my wipers and cowl to even see the strut tops..


_Modified by fritzner at 11:52 AM 11-1-2004_


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## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: (fritzner)*

Yeh, let's get this figured out. I've bought a set, but haven't installed them yet.








Sounds like too many of you are having the same problem. Not sure I want to install mine now!


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

My passenger side front is squeeking as well. No groaning or any other noises, just a light squeek. It is only audible with the windows all rolled up and the car rolling along a light throttle at lower speeds (less than 40mph). Just cracking a window open, having the stereo on (not loudly), or driving faster the 40mph or so (road noise etc) will easily drown it out. I haven't removed the top cap yet, but have jacked the car up and pushed/pulled/yanked on things to no effect (everything appears tight and I have done some agressive cornering/driving and nothing has shifted).
The only thing I have noticed is that the passenger side top cap does appear to be sitting/fitting over the strut tower slightly different than the one on the other side. The driver side cap appears to be more evenly centered on the strut tower than the passenger side one.
I hope to take the passenger side top cap off tomorrow. - I will report back with what I find.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *laurent* »_
Isn't engaging with the square hole in the mount the sole purpose of it, what other use could is possible have?

Yes I expect it is. I think the pegs on my plates are too short. I beleive someone else on here noticed the same thing, so perhaps it depends what batch of plates you get. I am taking my car on the track in a couple weeks so I'll see how they hold up.

BTW, just had my car aligned today:
Before:
LF: -0.3° camber +7.5° caster, -0.08° toe
RF: +0.2 camber, +8.1° caster, -0.08° toe
After:
LF -1.2° camber, +7.6° caster, -0.08° toe
RF -0.9° camber, +7.8° caster, -0.08° toe
With me in the car, camber was -1.1 & -1.0
Here is a pic of the plate installed. Looks like it is getting smushed towards the engine bay. Is it supposed to look like this?


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

your pic makes me think the peg is not getting into the hole. mine never sat quite that bad... what i've been doing is decreasing the torque on the first nut(until it stops having problems) and using 45 on the pinch nut (the top nut...) ...i think i must only have about 27 lbs on the one that has no problems now... that one hasn't moved or squeaked in several days...


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*

My install is still going strong. R compounds, stiff koni coils, control arm bushings, 13" brakes, and 300 hp. 
It looks like a few of you didnt/don't have the pin in the hole correctly. Tightening it up like this is bad, real bad. Something is going to give. Either you bent the plate, break the stud, strip the strut, or bend the strut. Be very careful when you tighten. Do not use an impact wrench. Go 1/4 turn at a time on the top nut, and rotate the top back and forth making sure its in the hole correctly. Im not sayign this is the cause of all the problems, but a likely culprit on a couple cases I saw on here. Remember when tightened, there shoudl not be any load on this post at all. the clamping force of the nut prevents the movement, not the post. 
For those with groaning sounds, have you replaced your strut bearings? I didnt replace mine, but they felt good with only 30K miles on them. Some of you may want to consider replacing the bearings. 
On another note, I do not have any different caster dialed in on my car, I just set it at maximum camber position on both sides, and I evened out the camber by shifting the sub frame left/right. 
Also, I do not have stock strut top pieces. (the stamped sheet metal stuff) I have koni coils that have an aluminum replacement. perhaps the stock sheetmetal parts are rubbing the underside of the SPC assembly? Have you checked the clearance on these parts? 
Good luck fellas


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## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*

Well, assuming the pin/peg wasn't in the hole properly, from what I understand the upper cap shouldn't move regardless. It seems that for whatever reason something in my assembly is binding when it shouldn't.
As for the bearing, I checked it when I had everything torn apart and even though I had a replacement one I never installed it because the old one checked out fine.
Now that I am starting to think about it, when I took the passenger side strut apart I forgot to put the bump stop back in and never bothered with correcting it since I figured it shouldn't really make a difference. Could this be causing my binding problems?
Ps.: I have KW Variant 2 coilovers...


_Modified by laurent at 11:34 AM 11-2-2004_


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (laurent)*

I would not suspect the bump stop is a problem. If you dont have the peg in the hole perfectly, you will get what is shown in the above picture. An angle on the upper piece. The cars sheetmetal perch gets clamped by the two spc pieces like a sandwhich. if the post isn't in the hole perfect, then you get an angle, and the sandwhich only clamps on maybe a third of the way around. Drive like this, or torque down real hard and something bends, and your plates are screwed. Even if you correct it later, the damage is done, and something bent. Now it can't clamp properly, and it can move around. 
Ill get a better pic tonight, but it should sit perfectly flush. 










_Modified by enginerd at 12:29 PM 11-2-2004_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_I would not suspect the bump stop is a problem. If you dont have the peg in the hole perfectly, you will get what is shown in the above picture. An angle on the upper piece. The cars sheetmetal perch gets clamped by the two spc pieces like a sandwhich. if the post isn't in the hole perfect, then you get an angle, and the sandwhich only clamps on maybe a third of the way around. Drive like this, or torque down real hard and something bends, and your plates are screwed. Even if you correct it later, the damage is done, and something bent. Now it can't clamp properly, and it can move around. 
Ill get a better pic tonight, but it should sit perfectly flush. 


Ok so when I installed the top plates, I triple checked that the pegs were aligned with the holes before torquing down. Its just that when I start to tighten the top nut, the plate starts slanting. I think a) my top plate is malformed and b) the peg is too short to engage the hole correctly.
I think I'll be calling SPC to see if they can source me new top plates. Besides wearing the rubber down a bit I don't think this will kill the bottom part of the plates. I wonder if this can be corrected by adding a washer?


_Modified by phatvw at 11:59 AM 11-2-2004_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

I just sent an email to SPC outlining the issues folks are having with these plates. I mentioned that I could supply pictures of the problems. Please IM me with links to your pictures if you would like me to send them to SPC. I will only send pictures for which I have permission.
Thanks,
Dan



_Modified by phatvw at 12:27 PM 11-2-2004_


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Guys... thanks much for the additional info! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I just spent some time futzing with my passenger side SPC camber kit to see what was up (i.e why it was squeeking).
Here is the passenger side and driver side SPC top plates on the car before I started. You can see the passenger side one is not right, but driver side one looks good and flush.








(I've purposely posted the images side by side so they are easy to compare.)
Removing the passenger side top plate clearly showed the problem:








Having a feeling that the passenger side top plate was most definetely not right, I took a hammer and one of my 3/8" extensions (used the round open end as a punch kind of) and wacked on the bottom side of the top plate until things returned to what I thought was correct. 








I then checked the lower nut on the passenger side SPC. It was a little bit loose. I adjusted the camber plate a bit (it was a little off from full negative camber) and tightened the lower nut back up. I torqued it to a little higher than spec (48ftlbs as opposed to 44ftlbs) and added a drop of lock-tite to keep things tight.
I then took my "modified" top plate and re-installed it and torqued to spec (30ftlbs). The result is that the passeneger side top plate looks like the driver side one (it is sitting nice and flush):








Weather is crappy here today, so I only took the car down the block and back and in and out of the driveway a few times (the bump/dip at the bottom of the driveway usually causes squeeking). No noise so far, so I think I may have it licked, but a more extended drive will be needed to see if it holds.



_Modified by RichB at 3:52 PM 11-2-2004_


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I just sent an email to SPC outlining the issues folks are having with these plates. I mentioned that I could supply pictures of the problems. Please IM me with links to your pictures if you would like me to send them to SPC. I will only send pictures for which I have permission.


Dan... feel free to use my pics from my posting above if it is of any help.
FWIW... I think as well that the post/pin on the top plate needs to be a bit longer. Even with things tightened to spec, I doubt the pin is fully seated in the camber mating camber plate square opening. (ideally, I would like to see square peg that will more snugly fit into the square opening on the top plate or maybe instead of the peg, just leave a round hole there on the top plate and put a bolt through the hole with a locknut and nut on the bottom... should be enough space for it to fit and would be stronger I would think).


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## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*

great post.. i have the same problem as you can see in the pics in one of the posts above.. i will try that tonight.. 
one thing i havent figured out yet, is how you are lining up the pegs.. i eye ball it the best i can, but the peg is not long enough until the nut compresses the rubber, but at that point you cant rotate the top cap anymore (not as though i know which way it is off anyway)..
i though putting a small chamber (1/16") on the end of the peg would help it slide in if it were close, but it apparently hasnt helped..


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*

aren't your torque specs completely backwards? the inner nut should have 30 and the outer should have more.
and enginerd, i was always careful with the peg on my plates and in fact, have had better luck eliminating the groaning and movement of the plates since i knocked the pegs out. go figure....


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_aren't your torque specs completely backwards? the inner nut should have 30 and the outer should have more.


I'm looking at the SPC instructions right now... "tighten upper bearing retaining nut to 44ftlbs (60nm). Reinstall cover plate making sure pin engages in square hole. Install top nut and torque to 30ftlbs (40nm)"


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*

Nice post, Rich. I'll check tonight and see if I have a skewed mount as well.


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (fritzner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fritzner* »_
one thing i havent figured out yet, is how you are lining up the pegs.. i eye ball it the best i can, but the peg is not long enough until the nut compresses the rubber, but at that point you cant rotate the top cap anymore (not as though i know which way it is off anyway)..


I do eyeball/guess its placement first. For mine, the pin is just long enough so that if I put some weight on the top plate to compress the rubber I could still manage to rotate it back and forth a bit with the top nut just a bit loose/barely snug. I could then feel either side of the hole as the pin would make contact with it (the pin is smaller than the hole by a fair amount). By feel I center the top plate and then tighten the top nut.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*

Richb, nice pics!
That is EXACTLY what my top plate looks like. I considered hammering it into shape, but I think I will wait to hear what SPC has to say about it first.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*

Those pics show exactly the problem. The pin was not inserted into the hole, and then tightened. Now the pin gets loaded, and the upper perch does not get clamped right. Nice fix though. 
Here is my technique. 
eyeball the pin in about the right area of the square hole. Get the nut started. 
turn the top plate back and forth over the area where the square hole is. 
make a 1/4 turn, and turn the top plate back and forth. 
turn another 1/4 turn and repeat. Eventually you feel a positive stop on the top plate when turning clockwise/counter clockwise
when you get to this point tightent the nut up. 
Patience is a virtue. No impact guns, no clumsy beer filled friends helping you out. 
And another thing there are 2, repeat 2 square holes. One in the washer part, ane one in the lower body. They need to be lined up when you put on the first lower nut, or you will be scrwed before you start the upper part. When tightening the lower nut, insert a 3/8 exstension in the hole and it will keep the washer part from spinning. 
For a design change they could extend both the pin, and the square hole depth to improve the design. 



_Modified by enginerd at 4:40 PM 11-2-2004_


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RichB* »_I'm looking at the SPC instructions right now... "tighten upper bearing retaining nut to 44ftlbs (60nm). Reinstall cover plate making sure pin engages in square hole. Install top nut and torque to 30ftlbs (40nm)"

...then phatvw's post on page 8 has the specs backwards...


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
...then phatvw's post on page 8 has the specs backwards...

Oops! We're all only human!








Maybe he can edit his post to prevent any future confusion.
BTW, For those who do not have a set of hardcopy install instructions, here is a link to a page on SPC's website with the install instructions for the VW camber kit:
http://www.specprod.com/PROD_D...81340


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*

do you notice that #6 means "cover" in the text of number nine. ... 

...also, the stock spec torque for the #5 nut is 44lbs. anyone have a guess as to why would it be 30 for these plates? ...









_Modified by gelatin at 1:58 PM 11-2-2004_

...and why would i want more torque on the bearing nut? that will just cause it to bind easier, right?
...i got the noises when i had 44lbs on that nut, i have no noise at ~30lbs...


_Modified by gelatin at 2:01 PM 11-2-2004_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
...then phatvw's post on page 8 has the specs backwards...

My bad. Just corrected it.


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_do you notice that #6 means "cover" in the text of number nine. ... 

...also, the stock spec torque for the #5 nut is 44lbs. anyone have a guess as to why would it be 30 for these plates? ...








...and why would i want more torque on the bearing nut? that will just cause it to bind easier, right?
...i got the noises when i had 44lbs on that nut, i have no noise at ~30lbs...


I imagine that these plates are thicker than the stock mount and if you tighten too much you'll crack the strut bearing. I think the torque ratings are just recommendations and may not work for all different struts.


_Modified by phatvw at 2:21 PM 11-2-2004_


----------



## NOok (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

FYI- Due to a change in my sales status, SPC has now lowered my costs to where I can have the same prices nopi, and my site will have the new prices changed on the prosuspension.com site shortly. Group buys will be available as they are for any item I offer
N


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
*I imagine that these plates are thicker than the stock mount and if you tighten too much you'll crack the strut bearing.* I think the torque ratings are just recommendations and may not work for all different struts.


...the nut that would be causing stress on the bearing is the one at 44lbs, not the one at 30lbs. the top nut is just a pinch, it only puts stress between the bearing nut and the top "cover"(item #4 in the instructions), but no stress on the bearing...
...but i do think you're right about maybe having to fiddle a bit with different struts...


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_do you notice that #6 means "cover" in the text of number nine. ... 
...also, the stock spec torque for the #5 nut is 44lbs. anyone have a guess as to why would it be 30 for these plates? ...








...and why would i want more torque on the bearing nut? that will just cause it to bind easier, right?
...i got the noises when i had 44lbs on that nut, i have no noise at ~30lbs...


Good questions.... my bearing nut which was loose (not anywhere near 30ftlbs, much less 44ftlbs) was on the side that was squeeking (I have not had any problems with groaning or other noises - just the squeek). 
With the top nut, given that it is not centered on the SPC top plate/cover (loading is not very evenly distributed when the top nut is tightened) and the metal of the SPC top plate does not appear to be very thick/strong, if it was torqued more than they reccomend that it could be too much stress for the top plate/cover. (hence the deformation of my top plate??? who knows.)


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (RichB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RichB* »_
With the top nut, given that it is not centered on the SPC top plate/cover (loading is not very evenly distributed when the top nut is tightened) and the metal of the SPC top plate does not appear to be very thick/strong, if it was torqued more than they reccomend that it could be too much stress for the top plate/cover. (hence the deformation of my top plate??? who knows.)


That is exactly what I was thinking. Either they need to make the top plate stronger, or the peg a little longer, or both. Under-torquing the nuts isn't satisfactory IMO.
This plate is designed to work on both the Auti TT and the MkIV. I wonder if the Audi TT strut tower is shallower than ours and that is why the peg is made so short - you definitely don't want that peg bumping up against the bottom of the square hole...



_Modified by phatvw at 5:20 PM 11-2-2004_


----------



## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

Alright, problem solved. Hammered the sucker back into shape and then had a friend hold the cap in place while I slowly tightened the nut. By slowly I mean in minute increments to make sure that the cap wouldn't twist.
The only problem I really ran into was the welds of the pin breaking as I got to carried away wailing on it...
Rewelded it with three spots and it's firmly in place now, absolutely squeak free.
Just a hint, make sure that the two square holes line up EXACTLY. When I put the strut back together the first time I didn't pay close enough attention and the holes were slightly off. When the holes are of chances are that you won't get the peg inserted all the way as the outer nut tightens, and then when you apply some torque it will slip out.



_Modified by laurent at 9:26 AM 11-3-2004_


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (laurent)*


_Quote, originally posted by *laurent* »_Alright, problem solved. Hammered the sucker back into shape and then had a friend hold the cap in place while I slowly tightened the nut. By slowly I mean in minute increments to make sure that the cap wouldn't twist.
The only problem I really ran into was the welds of the ping breaking as I got to carried away wailing on the plate... 
Rewelded it with three spots and it's firmly in place now, absolutely squeak free.
Just a hint, make sure that the two square holes line up EXACTLY. When I put the strut back together the first time I didn't pay close enough attention and the holes were slightly off. When the holes are of chances are that you won't get the peg inserted all the way as the outer nut tightens, and then when you apply some torque it will slip out.

_Modified by laurent at 8:52 PM 11-2-2004_

To hold the square holes in alignment, a 3/8 Drive exstension fits right in there. Put one in there when you tighten the lower nut. It is also helpful to rotate the assembly to adjust the camber by putting a ratchet on there and using the square hole to rotate the thing.


----------



## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_To hold the square holes in alignment, a 3/8 Drive exstension fits right in there. Put one in there when you tighten the lower nut. It is also helpful to rotate the assembly to adjust the camber by putting a ratchet on there and using the square hole to rotate the thing. 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Worked for me.


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (laurent)*


_Quote, originally posted by *laurent* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Worked for me.

Me too. 
However, I don't think the pin is long enough to engage the square hole. My top caps sit flat and I have no noises (yet).
-Wayne


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_
Me too. 
However, I don't think the pin is long enough to engage the square hole. My top caps sit flat and I have no noises (yet).
-Wayne

The pin is most defintely long enough to engage the square hole.


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*

I musta got really lucky installing the top plates then.
I assembled the units on the bench beforehand and made note of the distances, however, when assembled, the strut tower spaces things out to the point where bottom of the pin is at least a 1/16" away from engaging the slightest amount. I'll take pictures and document distances with a caliper to make my point. I'm not making this stuff up though--maybe I got a different or defective run.
-Wayne


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
The pin is most defintely long enough to engage the square hole. 

For me the pin is engaging the hole, but from putting pressure on the top plate and rotating it to feel out the center of the square hole the peg fits into (priror to tightening the top plate nut), it is pretty clear to me that the pin is only engaging the top part of the square hole. Now, if I was to torque the top nut considerably more than spec... that would compress the rubber under the top plate some more (or possibly deform the metal of the top plate) and make the peg fit a little further into the hole, but not by much more. On my car the peg could easily be a 1/16" longer without any worry of the pin hitting bottom of the square hole.
I took the GTI for a spin just a little while ago... hit some twisties and some bumpy roads and all is tight with no squeeking! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (RichB)*

i must have a different issue than you guys, my noise was never what i'd call a squeek...sounded more like a submarine at its limiting depth... i just went to 28lbs on the "bearing retaining nut" and haven't had trouble since. the 44lbs in the instructions was causing it to bind... in fact, 29lbs binds it...when i take the bearing out, it rotates fine and smoothly... but whatever, i'm noise free with these torques.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Just got a response from SPC: (the email address suffix specprod.com and my own email address have been removed. I must say I am impressed with their response.

_Quote »_ 
________________________________
From: Douglas Hardy
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:30 AM
To: Dan Charlton
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: VW/Audi Front Camber/Caster Kit 81340 problems?
Thank you for your interest in Specialty Products Company. The nut included in the 81340 kit we have found fits some years of our applications but not all. We are including two nuts in the kits now to cover all applications. The issue with the peg of the top cap not fitting in the square hole can be solved by leaving in the 3/8” drive extension in the square hole while tightening the main strut nut. This keeps the two square slots lined up. This will be included in future installation instruction. If the top cap is bent up too bad or you would like new nuts for to top cap please e mail me at [email protected] and I will send you some no charge. 
Thank You.
Doug Hardy
Trainer/Technical Services Specialist
Specialty Products Company
800-525-6505
-----Original Message-----
From: Cheryl Sheldon
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:31 PM
To: Doug Hardy
Subject: FW: VW/Audi Front Camber/Caster Kit 81340 problems?

Doug:
Would you please respond to the email below.
********************************************************
Cheryl Sheldon, PHR
Human Resources & Customer Service Manager
Specialty Products Company
303-772-2103
303-772-1918 - Fax



Here is my original letter:

_Quote »_
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Charlton
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: VW/Audi Front Camber/Caster Kit 81340 problems?
Please forward this message to a technical support or technical sales
agent.
Hello,
I recently purchased the VW/Audi front camber kit from
http://www.nopionline.com
They were installed as described in the instruction sheet, but I don't
think the fitment is correct for the vehicle as advertised by SPC. The
vehicle is a 2001 Volkswagen GTI GLX.

Here are the problems I had:
a) the supplied top nut (#5 in the instruction sheet) was the wrong
thread pitch. SPC supplied a 14x2.0 thread pitch, but Volkswagen
specifies a 14x1.5 thread pitch. The nut provided by Volkswagen was used
instead for proper fitment. (For your reference, here is the OEM part
#:N90353603)
b) the peg protruding from the bottom of the top cover does not engage
the square hole properly - it appears to be too short.
c) the top strut cover (#4 in the instruction sheet) does not fit
snuggly on the top of the strut tower - it slants off to one side when
installed. The torque ratings in the instruction sheet were meticulously
followed, and the alignment specialist confirmed this twice. I am
concerned about the slanting and if it affects the safety of the
vehicle. I suspect that the top cover may be malformed from the factory.
Please let me know if there are any measurements I can make to ensure
proper quality of this piece.

Until I noticed these issues, I have been promoting the SPC camber kit
as a viable option in the Volkswagen online community. I have spoken
with a number of other dealers & enthusiasts, and they are having
similar issues with these kits, especially with the peg rubbing against
or not engaging the square hole properly. I believe these kits are a
very novel solution to the camber issue in MkIV Volkswagens and I really
hope that SPC can resolve these issues and continue to support the
community. Please let me know if you would like URL references or
photographs of the issues.





_Modified by phatvw at 12:49 AM 6-24-2008_


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

The issue with the peg of the top cap not fitting in the square hole can be solved by leaving in the 3/8” drive extension in the square hole while tightening the main strut nut.

That's my technique - I want royalties


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*

I think that was in the instructions included with the kit. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: (fritzner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fritzner* »_here are some pics of mine.. not sure why it is crooked, pics on page 7 dont look like mine.. i took mine apart and re-installed with no benefit.. i think maybe the peg is not in the hole, but i cant really tell.. i posted earlier that i too had some wear on my peg (as pictured above), to me it looked like the peg caught the side of the hole did not go in -- to help the peg, i ground a small chamfer on the end of the peg in hope it would slip in if it was close..
















funny how all these problems show up a few days after i install mine








PS: this is on a bug (if the pics look a little weird) -- whats even better is i have to remove my wipers and cowl to even see the strut tops..


-----------------------------------------
well i took my caps off last night; hammered them flat; and p!ssed with them for an hr or more; the top caps/plates are not near as crooked as they were above, but still not perfectly even







i torque everything down to spec and so far the squeeking is gone http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .... hope it lasts


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (fritzner)*

I'm working with a company to finish up a camber kit for myself and others. Wanted to get some feedback on what you guys think.
Here are some of the features:
1. It has independent camber and castor adjustability.
2. It installs with no drilling or cutting of the strut tower
3. It allows for stock camber to lots of camber with the option of cutting the strut tower for even larger amounts of camber.
4. Uses a spherical bearing.
Now all that needs to be done is washers, fasteners, and instructions. The parts will need to go to the laser engraving for the camber marks but it's nearly done.
Steve


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Looks awesome, but I don't really get how it works. Looks like the whole thing goes on top of the strut mount? How does it attach - from the bottom? Projected price, dates, and distributor?
On the SPC issue: I went to tighten mine last night and found that the shop that helped me had ground the peg down! They had filed one side so it fit better, I guess. I tightened everything up and it squeaks MUCH less - only VERY quietly when almost stopped.
I had a heck of a time getting it because I had to use the 7/8" Koni nut sinc ethe SPC nut wasn't the correct thread. Well, I could not find a 7/8 plug socket or O2 socket - the biggest was 13/16. My 'regular' deep well impact 7/8 is too thick to fit between the nut and sidewall of the cup. I ended up using an offset wrench, which was STILL too thick to get down on the nut. I think this is because SPC provided the wrong thread on the nut and I had to re-use the Koni nut instead. Any suggestions? How can I get a 13/16" nut that is threaded properly?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

The top two parts are kits left and right. Ignore the bottom piece for now. Remove the fasteners and there's a plate that goes on top of the strut tower. The rest goes underneath the strut tower and the two clamp down via the fasteners.
I'm still working out the projected price once everything is finished. They should be done by the end of next week. I can't mention the distributor right now.


----------



## laurent (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_The top two parts are kits left and right. Ignore the bottom piece for now. Remove the fasteners and there's a plate that goes on top of the strut tower. The rest goes underneath the strut tower and the two clamp down via the fasteners.
I'm still working out the projected price once everything is finished. They should be done by the end of next week. I can't mention the distributor right now.

What are the specs on your kit (max +/- camber etc.).


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (laurent)*

You should see an adjustment range of approximately 2.1 degrees without strut tower modification. The test car got -2.6 degrees on both sides.
Steve


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: (fritzner)*

[regarding SPC camber kits]
i had reported earlier that although my top plates were not perfectly even, they were better than before and no longer squeeking --- 
well the squeeking has returned







not as bad as before.. i doesnt look like anything shifted or moved..
how are everyone elses doing??.. are your caps perfectly flat or a little crooked??.. how did you line up the peg -- i p!ssed with them for oven an hr!!...
thanks..


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Mine are almost perfectly flat. When I took the caps off this weekend, one was bent just a LITTLE bit. However, the shop had filed off quite a bit from one peg (the bent one)! So I reinstalled everything and tightened it. No squeaks on Sunday, but by this afternoon they were back again.
The main problem is that I cannot torque the nut. I had to use the Koni nut which is 7/8" OD (22mm I think) because the SPC nut wasn't the right thread. I can't find a 7/8" / 22mm plug socket (with the hex cuts on the outside. And the clearance from the larger nut is too close to the cup to get anything 100% on it.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Mine are almost perfectly flat. When I took the caps off this weekend, one was bent just a LITTLE bit. However, the shop had filed off quite a bit from one peg (the bent one)! So I reinstalled everything and tightened it. No squeaks on Sunday, but by this afternoon they were back again.
The main problem is that I cannot torque the nut. I had to use the Koni nut which is 7/8" OD (22mm I think) because the SPC nut wasn't the right thread. I can't find a 7/8" / 22mm plug socket (with the hex cuts on the outside. And the clearance from the larger nut is too close to the cup to get anything 100% on it.

Hmm I beat mine into shape a bit and filed down the pins. The pins are most definitely making their way into the square holes now and are not binding. However, the top rubber part still slants a bit. Its not as bad as before, but not perfect.
I believ the angle of the opening in the top plate is just plain wrong. I need to fashion a beveled washer or something to correct the angle. Either that or hope that SPC send me new plates as they suggested they would. Luckily, I haven't had squeaking problems... yet.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

...i'm still noise free after however many days its been.


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

phatvw.. 
did you get the free parts as promised??.. any design changes??.. did the new parts help??.. is their free replacement parts offer good for any of us??.. 
i still havent gotten an alignment because if i will probably have to tear them apart again since they still squeak a bit..
crap, i just remember to adjust them you need to take the top plate/cap off.. mine are impossible to get even, if i ever do get them on even, i am never taking them off..
one more thing, it says to loosen the lower nut 1/2 turn then adjust them with a 3/8" drive in the slot -- why does the nut have to be loosened?? -- it will freely rotate without loosening wont it??..
lastly do you adjust with it on ground or jacked up??..
thanks ..


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (fritzner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fritzner* »_phatvw.. 
did you get the free parts as promised??.. any design changes??.. did the new parts help??.. is their free replacement parts offer good for any of us??.. 
i still havent gotten an alignment because if i will probably have to tear them apart again since they still squeak a bit..
crap, i just remember to adjust them you need to take the top plate/cap off.. mine are impossible to get even, if i ever do get them on even, i am never taking them off..
one more thing, it says to loosen the lower nut 1/2 turn then adjust them with a 3/8" drive in the slot -- why does the nut have to be loosened?? -- it will freely rotate without loosening wont it??..
lastly do you adjust with it on ground or jacked up??..
thanks ..

I have not heard back from SPC nor have I received a package. I will give them till Friday and then I'll bug them again.
Hmm I don't know about loosening that inner nut. I reckon loosening it before rotating the whole assembly is just a precaution to reduce stress. You should make your adjustments on the ground with your wheel lug nuts properly torqued and everything. The final adjutments should be done at the alignment shop. If you have your own tools, bring em to the shop just in case.


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Was able to take my GTI for a good romp this afternoon on some backroads.... So far my fix to my passenger side front plate is holding up fine and it has been quiet.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

If the car is on the ground with the weight on the shocks, you cant rotate them without loosening the nut. If it's in the air, you can roate all you want with the nut tight.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I have not heard back from SPC nor have I received a package. I will give them till Friday and then I'll bug them again.
Hmm I don't know about loosening that inner nut. I reckon loosening it before rotating the whole assembly is just a precaution to reduce stress. You should make your adjustments on the ground with your wheel lug nuts properly torqued and everything. The final adjutments should be done at the alignment shop. If you have your own tools, bring em to the shop just in case.


Well, I got a warranty invoice in the mail from SPC today which said they shipped out two whole kits for me! I'll have to wait till monday cause I missed the UPS guy today...



_Modified by phatvw at 6:15 PM 11-12-2004_


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

any updates..
i p!ssed with them forever and got the drivers side pretty good (fairly even and squeek free), but the passenger still squeeks (though looks about as even)..
since i am still messing around with them, i havent done an alignment yet - i dont want to get it aligned and then have to tear it all apart again -- though it is a bit of a catch 22 since you have to remove the cap to adjust the camber/caster..


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

cool.. i wonder whether all of us with F'ed up kits will be able to get new plates??..
is it just the top plate that is different or some/all the pieces??..
keep up posted..



_Modified by fritzner at 12:28 PM 11-17-2004_


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I have the new plates in my hand today and yes they do look a little different. I will try to post pics tonight...

SPC replaced just the very top plate, correct? 
I have had squeaking issues with just one side. I pounded the plate flat; no squeaks for a week. But after about 400 miles the squeak is reemerging. I assume the plate has warped again.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (redwe-in-wi)*

Well, SPC sent me new nuts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for service. However the drivers' side still squeaks incessantly. It's gotten extremely bad. I pulled the plates off, pounded them flat (they were only SLIGHTLY bent) and torqued them to 45lbs. Still squeaked. Tried 80lbs. Still squeaked (less though). Backed off to 40lbs - worst they've ever been. I'm done.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Well, SPC sent me new nuts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for service. However the drivers' side still squeaks incessantly. It's gotten extremely bad. I pulled the plates off, pounded them flat (they were only SLIGHTLY bent) and torqued them to 45lbs. Still squeaked. Tried 80lbs. Still squeaked (less though). Backed off to 40lbs - worst they've ever been. I'm done. 

...i'm done too. i'm paying my taxes on the car and the next big bucks i ship off is for shine's plates unless hans j puts his up by then. anyway, what torque do you have on the bearing nut? i'm using 28 and since then i've had nearly no noise. it only creaks a bit in the mornings. dunno why, but only in the mornings, like the first few turns of the wheel...

...anyone know much about the 2bennett plates? they aint cheap, but how much camber is there with them? its not listed on their page. and i dont guess anyone has them here? (we're a cheap bunch)


_Modified by gelatin at 7:36 AM 11-18-2004_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I took my struts apart today. My passengers side was fine - nothing odd. But my drivers' side, which was the squeaky one, had a cracked bearing. This side also had the peg filed down on one side - like a chamfer (by a shop). The shop I had do the alignment used an impact wrench as well. So I don't know what caused the crack - the filed peg or the impact wrench. And I don't know what is causing the squeak - the crack or the peg. I'll get new bearings *hopefully* tomorrow and get it re-assembled. Anyone know where I can get overnighted bearings? It does appear that the whole lower rubber unit has been moving within the strut tower. The inside looks worn. Oh -and the pics above look JUST like mine, and I have one of the first batch.


_Modified by AutoXMan at 2:50 PM 11-21-2004_


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

After bitching with the KMAC plates for a while, they have settled in and have been working good for some time now...I wish there was an easy plug and play solution, because the benefits of added negative camber are too good to give up on......


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Overnight from california will likely be pretty expensive for you, but you can try parts4vws.com. Or just try all the delaers in your state. You may get lucky.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

My camber plates are still performing great. No noises, no groaning, nothing. They have not budged from their setting of max negative camber.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_My camber plates are still performing great. No noises, no groaning, nothing. They have not budged from their setting of max negative camber. 

...mine aren't making noise either. that's with only 28lbs on the bearing nut and no pegs at all. autoxman, maybe you should think about using lower torque on the bearing nut...?...what struts do you use?


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I have Koni sports, but I wasn't the one who initially torqued the nuts. A shop used an impact wrench, which I wasn't happy about. Since then I've tried a bunch of different torque settings to try to quell the squeak. But I don't know who cracked the bearing, when, or if it is the cause of the squeak or the result of the allowed movement.
In any case, I need new bearings. So, how are those plates (with integrated bearings) coming, reflexgti? 


_Modified by AutoXMan at 9:14 AM 11-22-2004_


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

The parts have been at the laser engraver for the past week now. They're in que and should be done soon I would imagine...


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

FWIW - I put the struts back on last night and torqued everything myself. With the new bearing, there are no squeaks. At least - not yet. Here are some helpful tidbits I found:
Put the struts in without torquing the nuts. Just get them down to where the thing doesn't come flying apart.
Now put a jack under the ball joint. You might need to jack the car up or set in on stands. I have 2 jacks.
Jack the 1 wheel up - mega weight is now on this strut.
Now torque the lower nut.
Lower the jack and set your camber (here, you might have to raise the chassis so the wheel has less weight on it)
Now raise the wheel again and torque the outer nut.
I did this while on jackstands and I have 2 jacks, which helps. With the wheel 'raised' there is so much weight on the strut that it doesn't budge. Just don't over torque anything.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

The bearings were cracked because the setting on the impact gun was too high. Been there, done that. With our new adjustable gun, we set it to minimum and it comes out perfect every time.


----------



## NOok (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Hey there, NOok here, that static URL inthe first thread for my site's camber kits will be gone soon, I've replaced that crappy search system with a slick PHP based dynamic one.
N


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (NOok)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOok* »_Hey there, NOok here, that static URL inthe first thread for my site's camber kits will be gone soon, I've replaced that crappy search system with a slick PHP based dynamic one.
N

Updated for ya. Nice price too!


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

I'm nearly finishing up with a new camber plate design but I wanted to know the shaft diameter for some of the popular suspension kits out there. The factory struts are 22mm as well as the Koni. I would like to know what the shaft diameter would be for say the Bilstein PSS/PSS9 kit as well as the H&R coilovers.
Thanks,
Steve


----------



## inflatin (Sep 4, 2003)

Will anyone of these camber kits help my car with uneven tire wear? Which one is easiest/recommended so that my tires will stop burning out so fast?


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (inflatin)*

What kind of tire wear are you seeing? Inside? Outside? Fronts? One tire? Unless you're seeing the wear because you are competing, then more than likely you simply need an alignment.


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

i finally got an alignment with my SPC camber kits.. i also was able to get my top caps on even with a little chamfering of the peg and slot.. no squeeking at least for now..
i am surprised how much negative camber i got especially after i noticed the kits arent pointing exactly to the center, but actually a little toward the front of the car, which would give me less positive caster.. isnt more positive caster better??.. my caster does look a little less positive than others.. should i have the re-do it??..
BTW -- i have H&R sports, Koni yellows, SPC camber kits, and pulled the ball joint out all the way.. on my '00 turbo bug.. i only make it to the track once or twice a year..
an obvious question is how i got more negative camber than most when the kits are not set at max camber??..
please review my numbers and let me know what you think..
thanks ..
------ ALIGNMENT NUMBERS ARE BELOW ---------
NOTE: Anything in parentheses is just what is the specified range....anything not in parentheses is what my actual spec was. (everything in degrees) -- format borrowed from BostonVR6..
FRONT LEFT 
Actual VS (Specified Range) 
-1.7 VS (-1.1 to -0.1) Camber
+7.2 VS (7.3 to 8.3) Caster
-.01 VS (-.08 to 0.08) Toe
Front RIGHT
Actual VS (Specified Range)
-1.8 VS (-1.1 to -0.1) Camber
+7.0 VS (7.3 to 8.3) Caster
-.00 VS (-.08 to 0.08) Toe
FRONT TOTALS
Actual VS (Specified Range)
.0 VS ( -.5 to .5) Cross Camber
+.2 VS ( -.5 to .5) Cross Caster
-.01 VS (-.17 to .17) Total TOE
Rear LEFT
Actual VS (Specified Range)
-1.7 VS (-1.6 to -1.3) Camber
.34 VS (-.13 to .54) Toe
Rear RIGHT
Actual VS (Specified Range)
-1.7 VS (-1.6 to -1.3) Camber
.20 VS (-.13 to .54) Toe
REAR TOTALS
Actual VS (Specified range)
.55 VS (.25 to .58) TOTAL TOE 
.07 VS (-.33 to .33) Thrust Angle


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

reflexgti,
any ideas on what the price of these might be?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Girlsound)*

Pricing will be mid $300's I would imagine. Here's an email that I sent to a few interested people...
Just a quick email to let you know that the camber plates are very close to being done. I can now mention a few things that I needed to keep quiet previously. I've got some friends at Ground Control which as allowed me to work with them on designing the camber kit for the A4 chassis cars. The kit is made by Ground Control though I will most likely be reselling the limited production run on their behalf. 

The kit is the only one I know of on the market right now that allows for independent camber and castor adjustment. The kit also does not require any modifications to the strut tower whatsoever. It uses a very high grade spherical bearing as well as an exclusive floating hat system with Torrington thrust bearing to take all impact loads off the spherical bearing. Max camber gain is conservatively 1.8 degrees over stock though actuals on a couple of test cars were higher. One test car showed -2.5 degrees of camber on each corner.

Only thing left to do is the laser cut washers. I'm going to do an install of the final version, snap some photos, and write up some installation instructions for customers, etc. Initial release will include a special spring top hat for coilover equipped cars running 60mm, 2.5", and 2.25" springs. A special top hat for spring/strut guys will be coming shortly. 
I will be announcing the pricing soon... 

Feel free to ask questions.

http://home.pacbell.net/sgnguy....html

-Steve


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

Whoa! Looks awesome! So, there are no vulcanized/rubber parts in this assembly, correct?
Also, how is caster adjusted independently from camber using this system?
Thanks!
-Wayne


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (fritzner)*

acording to dike shine its better to sacrifice a bit of negative camber in order to reduce the positive caster. has something to do with the shape of the contact patch and a bunch of stuff i didn't follow. its in the long mk4 geometry thread...


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

these look very nice man. you say "no modification of strut tower"... so do these not bolt in?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_Whoa! Looks awesome! So, there are no vulcanized/rubber parts in this assembly, correct?
Also, how is caster adjusted independently from camber using this system?
Thanks!
-Wayne

Correct, it's all solid parts. Camber is adjusted via the sliding mechanism while castor is adjusted via rotating the assembly. There is actually a relationship between camber/castor though it's not fixed as in other designs.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_these look very nice man. you say "no modification of strut tower"... so do these not bolt in?

They do bolt in but the kit doesn't require any cutting or drilling of the strut tower whatsoever.


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_acording to dike shine its better to sacrifice a bit of negative camber in order to reduce the positive caster. has something to do with the shape of the contact patch and a bunch of stuff i didn't follow. its in the long mk4 geometry thread...

i guess i was mistaken about more positive caster is better.. seems that is better for straightline stability, but worse for steering response.. 
thanks for the insight..


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_They do bolt in but the kit doesn't require any cutting or drilling of the strut tower whatsoever.

...awesome. i await their release impatiently http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Pricing will be mid $300's I would imagine. Here's an email that I sent to a few interested people...


Wow those plates look great! I think the 2Bennet plates also have separate camber/castor adjustment, but they require drilling. Will the spherical bearing design sacrifice comfort? Are any of the OEM rubber pieces useds or does it replace everything?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Wow those plates look great! I think the 2Bennet plates also have separate camber/castor adjustment, but they require drilling. Will the spherical bearing design sacrifice comfort? Are any of the OEM rubber pieces useds or does it replace everything?


Thanks! A buddy of mine has the 2Bennett kit and, unfortunately, that kit does not offer seperate camber/castor adjustment either. The 2Bennett kit works under the same principle as the SPC kit but with much higher grade hardware.
This kit replaces everything. Ride quality will decrease vs. stock due to the lack of impact absorbtion from not having any rubber. However, this is the only way to have precision deflection control.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

Installed photo...


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

It looks like that drops the car slightly. Is this true? (The tip of the strut looks higher than stock)


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

...and what is the purpose of the threaded hole at the "point" of the top plate?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Girlsound)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Girlsound* »_...and what is the purpose of the threaded hole at the "point" of the top plate?

Just a guess, but maybe that is where the plate is held while the other holes are machined?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

.
_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_It looks like that drops the car slightly. Is this true? (The tip of the strut looks higher than stock)

The stack height of the kit is slightly less than that of the stock units so the car will sit slightly lower. The tip that you're seeing though is actually the adjustment mechanism for the shocks


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Girlsound)*

The inital prototype had a round top plate. We then realized that grabbing on to a round plate to rotate the unit for castor wasn't always easy so we made it that way to make it easier to grip. Decided to make a threaded hole so you can put a bolt on there. If you ever needed some extra leverage to rotate the unit, a rachet on a bolt there will rotate it easily.
Or you can call it weight reduction.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

so can i buy a set of these, install them and post a "look at my install + review thread" to justify you selling me a set now? i'm just ready to get rid of my spc plates... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Hey! No cutsies!








I've been bugging him for that for 2 weeks!


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Ok everyone, the camber kit is ready for those with 60mm or 2.5" coilover springs. I'm still working on the top hat for strut/spring fitment so sorry for the additional wait. 
2.5" spring kits have a grey anodized spring hat while 60mm kits have a bare billet aluminum finish. It's easier to identify and not get mixed up. 
There's only a handful that are ready to go as we're waiting shipment on some additional fasteners. 
Pricing is set at $339. I'll be shipping on Saturday via USPS. Please email me at: [email protected] if you're interested.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_ I'm still working on the top hat for strut/spring fitment so sorry for the additional wait. 


...oh man, what a tease...


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Ok everyone, the camber kit is ready for those with 60mm or 2.5" coilover springs. I'm still working on the top hat for strut/spring fitment so sorry for the additional wait. 
2.5" spring kits have a grey anodized spring hat while 60mm kits have a bare billet aluminum finish. It's easier to identify and not get mixed up. 
There's only a handful that are ready to go as we're waiting shipment on some additional fasteners. 
Pricing is set at $339. I'll be shipping on Saturday via USPS. Please email me at: [email protected] if you're interested.










Awesome! Please post the full specs and offcial product name in the format I have on page 1, and I'll add it there so you can get more exposure.
Thanks,
Dan


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Manufacturer: Ground Control
Part Number: no part number currently
Website: http://home.pacbell.net/sgnguy...sion/
Contact Reflexgti at [email protected] for this part.
Price: $339
Availability: Currently available for coilover equipped cars. Soon for spring/strut equipped cars.
Install notes and other info: Installs with zero strut tower modification. Uses high grade spherical bearing and special load bearing top hat. Currently the largest camber gain available without cutting. Conservative 1.8 degree of camber gain over OEM. Test car produced -2.5 degrees of camber on each wheel. Replaces all factory hardware from the spring up. Independent camber and castor adjustment. 


_Modified by reflexgti at 2:37 PM 12-2-2004_


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_ Soon for spring/strut equipped cars.

 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...i'm looking forward to it, man!...


----------



## L8brker (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

money sent


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Nice stuff. So if it doesn't require drilling of the tower to bolt in, can you describe in more detail how it is held in place?


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Look at the gap under the top plate. Then look at the installed pic a few posts back...


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

the top plate, the peice w/ all the laser engravings goes on top of the strut tower/mount deally. the cup, the bowl, or whatever u wanna call it goes under the mount, as well as the slider peice that adjusts the camber. they then mush each other w/ the car inbetween. its a very simple effective design.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_the top plate, the peice w/ all the laser engravings goes on top of the strut tower/mount deally. the cup, the bowl, or whatever u wanna call it goes under the mount, as well as the slider peice that adjusts the camber. they then mush each other w/ the car inbetween. its a very simple effective design.

So similar to the SPC desgin, except everything is beefier and the top plate has two way adjustment instead of just a single eccentric rotating adjustment. I trust there is no peg to get misaligned here










_Modified by phatvw at 10:20 AM 12-6-2004_


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Somewhat similar to SPC though a few notable features are the adjustment mechanism, the use of a race grade spherical bearing and special load bearing spring top hat.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_So similar to the SPC desgin, except everything is beefier and the top plate has two way adjustment instead of just a single eccentric rotating adjustment. I trust there is no peg to get misaligned here









_Modified by phatvw at 10:20 AM 12-6-2004_

everything is much beefier, two way like u said and deff no peg







screwing up this one will take a LOT of work. its a really beefy peice and very very simple in design. i believe steve posted up a link to more pics, check it out its very nice.


----------



## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Ok everyone, the camber kit is ready for those with 60mm or 2.5" coilover springs.

Not sure what this means.







Is this kit only for certain types of coilovers? I have H&R coilovers, set at stock 337 ride height. Will I be able to install this kit without any additional hardware or adjustments to my existing setup?


_Modified by genxguy at 1:48 PM 12-6-2004_


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_its very nice.

...it'll be nice when us shined guys can use this kit too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (genxguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *genxguy* »_
Not sure what this means.







Is this kit only for certain types of coilovers? I have H&R coilovers, set at stock 337 ride height. Will I be able to install this kit without any additional hardware or adjustments to my existing setup?

_Modified by genxguy at 1:48 PM 12-6-2004_

Yes, your H&R coilovers use 60mm front springs. The kit will work on your car without any issues.
Steve


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Yes, your H&R coilovers use 60mm front springs. The kit will work on your car without any issues.
Steve

BTW, 60mm refers to the inner diameter of the spring coil, not the drop as in a 60mm drop kit


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Yes, thanks for the clarification. The kit should work for all coilover kits currently on the market right now. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
People using standard struts/springs will be able to purchase it soon.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Just got my plates last night. They look awesome. I have not read the instructions yet - but woudl you say it is advisable (or not) to add a little grease under the top plate so the eye-shaped slider can slide easier? Mine was pretty sticky.
Also, I like the 'Ground Control' logo! Are they going to stock and/or support this piece? IE: Who do I go to if something breaks? How many of these are made so far?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

I'm glad you like them. A thin layer of grease may help though it's probably just a bit sticky since it's not quite worn in yet. The parts will be supported by me and ground control for the life of the part minus bearings which are a wear/tear item. We did an initial production run of 40 sets.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Cool. Can you (or maybe you did already) provide part #'s for the bearings? I don't know how fast they will wear out with autocross and track use, but I'd like to have the part number in my records.
I'll post a review of them once I get them installed - hopefully this weekend as long as my COs show up.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

I'll see if I can dig up the part numbers for the bearings. They're made by Aruora for competition use and should last at least 2 years of race use if not more. The kit was also designed so that the spherical bearing doesn't take any impact loads which greatly extends service life.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

Actually, it would rock if you could put the part numbers on the install insttructions. Then post that document online. I like to save the instructions for most everything I have on the car. Digitally, if possible.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_ I like to save the instructions for most everything I have on the car. Digitally, if possible.









...geek


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
...geek









So?







Hey, at least I didn't MAKE the thing!


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_So?







Hey, at least I didn't MAKE the thing!

...yeah, i'm just jealous i dont have these....


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
So?







Hey, at least I didn't MAKE the thing!

owned.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

bump


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*

These ground control camber/caster plates, look. AMAZING. This is a great thing that just happened to the MKIV, its been camber challenged forever.. a couple questions for ground control.....

What kind of negative camber can you see if you do cut the strut tower to gain even more negative camber, and how much/where would you cut. 

These are definitly going on the "I NEED these this summer mods list" They look great and the logo isn't BLASTED all over them which is nice.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_These ground control camber/caster plates, look. AMAZING. This is a great thing that just happened to the MKIV, its been camber challenged forever.. a couple questions for ground control.....

What kind of negative camber can you see if you do cut the strut tower to gain even more negative camber, and how much/where would you cut. 

These are definitly going on the "I NEED these this summer mods list" They look great and the logo isn't BLASTED all over them which is nice.

based on what i have seen on it so far, to gain the max negative camber one would have to grind away at the strut tower just a tiny bit, on the lip of the cup. the only thing is i don't think that these current offerings would allow for anymore camber if one were to cut. i think the plates would have to be cut a lil bit more and the bearing mechanism modified slightly. however that's not to say that there mite not be something in development or already made?!?!?! but anyhow today was my first full day w/ em on and i must say wow, i knew it would help significantly, but i wasn't aware that it would make that much of a diff. i most notably enjoy the change in caster, i think i went w/ less caster, so more upright and man does the car like to settle into corners now hehe.
but jus so u know some cars have seen just about 3 degrees static even w/o modding the strut tower assembly.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

Rex, what kind of plates were you running before? I'm going to put these on today and compare them to the SPC plates. I really don't expect the car to drive differently - other than not having any squeaking. But we'll see. It's going to be tough to compare the plates alone, since I'm also installing Koni coilovers to replace m spring/shock pair.


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_I'm going to put these on today and compare them to the SPC plates. I really don't expect the car to drive differently - other than not having any squeaking. But we'll see.

AutoXMan--when you install the new plates, can you let us know how the ride quality is affected? I'm curious how different it will be as I'm considering the same swap.
Thanks!
-Wayne


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_These ground control camber/caster plates, look. AMAZING. This is a great thing that just happened to the MKIV, its been camber challenged forever.. a couple questions for ground control.....

What kind of negative camber can you see if you do cut the strut tower to gain even more negative camber, and how much/where would you cut. 

These are definitly going on the "I NEED these this summer mods list" They look great and the logo isn't BLASTED all over them which is nice.

Thanks for the complements. Typically, you would not cut anything with these plates but if you're not adverse to cutting, we have a camber plate that will give up to -4 degrees but that would require cutting the top cup on the strut tower. 
We would have made the logo bigger if there was more space on the plate but I'm glad you like it. I just shipped out another kit today. IM me if you want to place an order!


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_ I just shipped out another kit today. IM me if you want to place an order!









...my IM is queued up and waiting the release of strut/spring versions... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
...my IM is queued up and waiting the release of strut/spring versions... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

I'm still working on yours. However, I may be able to fab something quick up using a nylon insert so a stock spring will seat into the hat if you're looking for something right now.
Steve


----------



## tobyc (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

I'm also waiting for the final strut spring version to come out.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Man what financial backing can do for manufacturing. I have been trying to save up to produce my plates for 6 months and there's always something, rent, bills, snow tires, ect. Congradts reflexgti, your setup is a really good kit. All I managed to do was build one set. I will still probably make my plates as they are a good canidate for those who want to cut their caps for more adjustment, but that will be sometime later. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_I'm still working on yours. However, I may be able to fab something quick up using a nylon insert so a stock spring will seat into the hat if you're looking for something right now.
Steve

...i'm on shine's springs and bilstien HD... how 'bout that?


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Rex, what kind of plates were you running before? I'm going to put these on today and compare them to the SPC plates. I really don't expect the car to drive differently - other than not having any squeaking. But we'll see. It's going to be tough to compare the plates alone, since I'm also installing Koni coilovers to replace m spring/shock pair.

aww man ure installing coils at the same time, that's kinda unfair =(. but i think the spring rates are relatively soft as compared to some of the other main stream coilover kits such as the pss kit or the h&r stuff, so it should at least be semi comparable to the basic spring shock combo.
honestly before the GC kit i was not running camber plates. i was |-| that close to buying the spc kit, but in my typical fashion i research the crap outta everything before i buy ie wait for some rd and track reviews on it all, so i didn't buy the spc kit. there was also the factor that they offered little in terms of camber, so i was a bit hesitant. i know you mite be thinking then why was i one of the first buyers of the GC kit, well it also saw track time and i trust reflexgti, especially w/ all the time that he spends w/ his car on the track.
but so to give some slight comparisons. i have the pss kit on my car w/ the stock upper strut bearing and top mount etc. swapping to this setup was a HUGE HUGE diff in terms of ride quality. first of all rd noise has increased dramatically, but would one really expect less now that every single part of the frt suspension is metal, well cept for the CA bushings. big bumps seem like they mite actually be a lot harsher now, but its hard to truly determine since the rd noise has gone up. but for sure in small bump situations the car seems to be working w/ the bumps a lot better. now that the car cannot deflect the suspension seems to be deffinetely at work and in some cases feels softer, yet firm. as i have not yet had a chance to raise the car (will do so tonite) the car seems to ride the bumptops more so and bounce off of em harder too, i'm guessing becuase the suspension travel is being used more effectively now it runs out faster.
i think w/ konis the car shouldn't ride as harsh as mine, i think it was the rebound characteristics that differ most greatly between bilsteins and konis which give the konis a slightly softer feel, so it shouldn't be too bad for ya. either way, the trade off in comfort for the grip was WELL WELL worth it, camber is fun!!! and the caster adjustment i made, i'm loving it hehe. deff a high quality peice, and based on the other future offerings out on the market there doesn't seem to be any other better alternatives.


_Modified by rex_racer at 10:20 AM 12-10-2004_


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Shine springs as well as other shock/spring setups have the same winding on the end to fit the stock spring cap so it shouldn't matter. 
I can check after work tonight and see if this idea I have will work. It will basically involve a nylon spacer/silencer to the 2.5" top hat so it would mate to a strut setup. Not as elegant of a setup but it wouldn't compromise functionality. Is that something you would want as there would be no wait time.
HansJ, thanks for the compliments, it's much appreciated. I'm very interested to see your setup as well and I'm well aware of how funding can delay good ideas. Hope your kit comes to market soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Steve


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

Rex, with no deflection and camber change from the soft strut mounts, shock tuning will now be more important than ever. I imagine the front shocks should be dialed to about 6 for better ride comfort up front.
The test cars we had didn't see much decrease in ride quality but these were on track cars which weren't comfortable to start with. 
I would love to continue hearing impressions from you guys.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_
I can check after work tonight and see if this idea I have will work. It will basically involve a nylon spacer/silencer to the 2.5" top hat so it would mate to a strut setup. Not as elegant of a setup but it wouldn't compromise functionality. Is that something you would want as there would be no wait time.

...how much do the plates for the coilovers change ride hieght? how thick would the spacer be?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Ride height changes less than .25 inches lower. The nylon spacer I was referring to does not alter ride height. 
The spacer I was referring to goes around the spring hat since those springs have an end inner diameter of 2.65" or something like that vs. the 2.5" top hat. A 2.5" top hat would sit a bit loosely on your shine spring without the spacer.


----------



## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_the car seems to ride the bumptops more so and bounce off of em harder too, i'm guessing becuase the suspension travel is being used more effectively now it runs out faster.

Isn't this a bad thing?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (genxguy)*

Riding bumpstops is a result of lowering and shock damping. Rex, you really need to not dump the PSS9s that much. They weren't designed to ride that low. Additionally, wrong rebound adjustment can also have you on the bumpstops.
Issues like these are not a result of camber plates.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

pss for me sadly =( lol. but i think i'm just noticing it more now that there is less deflection. the camber kit was deff not the cause for riding the bumpstops, the two share no relation lol. but so i raised it up considerably just now, though i think i'm gonna end up raising it up some more after school lets out, but thus far the ride is far far better!!! don't think i've hit the bumpstops yet but i'm sure i will, so up up and away it goes =P


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

The other version that allows 4 degrees neg camber or whatever it allows from ground control i have a few questions about.
Can you install this version w/o cutting the strut towers and it will just allow the same movement as the -1.8 degree version.
Also how much cutting is involved, any pics?
Once the strut tower is cut can you return back to the stock strut bushing/bearing setup?....prob not...dont really care though.
Finally, if i was to buy either version for a spring/shock set up, would i have to buy a whole new set of different camber plates if i ever wanted to go to a coilover?
Thanks...


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

...hey reflex, is it looking like the spacer will work out?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_The other version that allows 4 degrees neg camber or whatever it allows from ground control i have a few questions about.
Can you install this version w/o cutting the strut towers and it will just allow the same movement as the -1.8 degree version.
Also how much cutting is involved, any pics?
Once the strut tower is cut can you return back to the stock strut bushing/bearing setup?....prob not...dont really care though.
Finally, if i was to buy either version for a spring/shock set up, would i have to buy a whole new set of different camber plates if i ever wanted to go to a coilover?
Thanks...

Those plates require cutting off the strut cups on your shock tower to install. Once you do this, you're stuck this way unless you want to try welding the cup back on.
The camber plates that do not require cutting will allow you to go from a shock/spring combo to coilovers with just having to buy a spring hat. No need to buy a new plate.


----------



## L8brker (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: (recieved my camber plates)*

Recieved my camber plates , Steve is an exellent guy to deal with,the shipping was prompt the packaging was good and the product speakes for it self. the BEST camber caster plates on the market by far............
nice work Steve, i cant wait until spring for the firt track day..


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (L8brker)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (L8brker)*

post up the alignment specs you get w/ these things. hopefully you'll go for max camber so we can see if its consistent -2.5 or closer to the conservative -1.8 thats advertised.


----------



## euro_1.8t_gti (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: (Banditt007)*

ok i have a question, please some help, i have fk silverline plus x coilovers on my mk4 for about 4 months its amazing,
now one question i have the other day i was driving and every time when i made a left hand turn i heard an awfull clunking noise from front suspension now i had no idea what this is, then i said let me open my hood so i did then this is what i find,
my suspension is damping adjustable so where you adjust the damping i think this is the strut mount, ok i have the stock strut mount that little black thing where there is a bolt as well now the passenger side was all loose and moving around and the bolt was loose so i tightend this with my hand, now i want to know is this a major damadge can i still drive the car please help im not sure what to do until i show my shop, thank you for all the help.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (euro_1.8t_gti)*

Euro, this is probably not the best thread for this discussion. I sent you some info in IM, but I suggest you start a new thread in the suspension forum. This thread is for camber plate info.
Thanks,
Dan


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I got quite a bit of total camber as you can see from this picture. I am fairly sure it is at least 3 degrees. However the camber is also the result of loosening the lower ball joint and pushing it out. Both the SPC and GC plates promised right around 1.8 degrees without this little trick. I have not had an alignment to check it yet, but with any luck Santa is bringing a camber gauge.
















_Modified by AutoXMan at 8:54 PM 12-16-2004_


_Modified by AutoXMan at 8:55 PM 12-16-2004_


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

here's what i got, i'm using pss coils and i had the height set very low and didn't get to raise it up that nite, i was itching to install em, not tune w/ the car lol. i have since then raised the car. currently the camber plates are sitting w/ max negative camber and i have the entire mount turned forward a few degrees so that it lines up w/ the lil circles that go around the strut tower (only reference pt to get it aligned for temp)


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

anybody looking for a set of camber plates from Shine Racing, i have a set for sale...


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

posting a lil update here for all of those looking for a xmas gift for themselves.
i have since found time to raise the car even more, now i have about 2 finger gap in frt, and keep in mind i have smaller fingers, so that equates to about 30-35mm of gap. in terms of shock threading i now have about an inch and a quarter past the lowest thread on the coilovers (bilstein pss). the handling has increased quite dramatically past the previous lower ride height. the wheel travel has also increased dramatically as well. i know ideally i should probably raise the car even more so, but i still have the style bug in me, so 2 finger gap up frt and 1.75 finger gap out back is what i'll probably stay at for a lil whiles.
handling is now far more stable and much snappier. the increased shock travel is also a big plus. in terms of ride quality i expected these to ride roughly seeing as how they are solid billet vs soft rubber, but in all actuality i am experiencing quite the opposite. the ride is actually quite comfortable and dare i say soft yet firm, when compared to the stock bushings.
a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to reflex and ground control for putting this kit together.
oh and in case ure wondering i have not had an alignment yet, so i cannot post #s, unless of course i can find a portable cheapo camber guage, does anyone know of any??? oh and does anyone know what the toe settings do as the height of the car is changed, ie does the car toe out more as the ride height goes higher???


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

My toe went out HUGE as I dropped the car. Like 1" of toe out for about 1" of drop. I also installed coilovers and did the camber kit install, so maybe there was more going on there. But down should equal out.
Also as for a gauge - I'm going to make my own. Protector, level, and a 2) 1' rulers are all you should need. Srew the rulers together at one end using a thumbscrew / bolt, and attach the level to one ruler. Put the non-level side against the wheel and hold it. Adjust the level side so it is plumb. Tighten screw. Measure the angle with the protractor.


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

This stuff has paid for itself in the first 6 months...
Longacre toe gauge and Smartcamber camber gauge:
http://s2.pegasusautoracing.com/091.pdf
-Wayne


_Modified by Wayne92SLC at 6:36 AM 12-21-2004_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Ground Control has updated their website and the VW/Audi MkIV camber plates are now supposedly available for all spring/strut configurations and coilover setups:
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php?II=653
There is another bolt-in camber plate available, but I'm pretty sure it is only for MkII/MkIII:
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php?II=148



_Modified by phatvw at 5:17 PM 12-21-2004_


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Sorry but we're still waiting on the hat for the spring/strut configuration. The web guy was a bit premature when putting that stuff on the web. 
Feel free to contact me if you would like to place an order. It's $339+shipping with me covering the tax.








The second camber kit you posted will bolt in but requires quite a bit of strut tower modification to make it work. It'll fit on all platforms but you'll have to cut off the cup on the suspension tower.
Thanks to everyone that has supported me in getting my act together and getting this kit developed! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Sorry but we're still waiting on the hat for the spring/strut configuration. The web guy was a bit premature when putting that stuff on the web. 


...any ETA?


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

What is this "future project" stress bar thingy all about?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

It should have been ready on Tuesday but there's been a backlog of stuff that needs to be machined so I'm hoping for today. However, with Christmas coming near, it may not arrive this week.
The stressbar thingy was an idea that we had to incorporate a stressbar threaded into the camber plate. However, there's not enough material there to make something that's very effective. So we left it there so you could thread a bolt in there to facilitate rotating the plate if necessary.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Plus. If you DID mount a stressbar there - it would limit your caster adjustment to whatever fit the bar...
BTW - What is that thread? I never saw any specs on it so I know what bolt to buy! Did you ever post the full instructions somewhere?


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_It should have been ready on Tuesday but there's been a backlog of stuff that needs to be machined so I'm hoping for today. However, with Christmas coming near, it may not arrive this week.


...not a problem man, no races until mid january here anyway... thanks for the update...


----------



## dj_dub (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (gelatin)*

this thread is great, really good info here! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (phatvw)*

Anyone else here interested in camber?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Anyone else here interested in camber?
 Me Me Me







Just not sure if im going with coilovers or strut setup . Ive been







those plates they look real nice . Ill be making a decison soon







Bob.G







im sent 


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 7:14 PM 1-2-2005_


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Anyone else here interested in camber?

Squeaky SPC here.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (redwe-in-wi)*

Another person here on the forums switched away from the SPC camber kit for the same squeaking problem. Have they not fixed the problem yet?


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Anyone else here interested in camber?

bro, you know i am... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
any word on the strut version yet?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*

It still wasn't done as of Thursday. Friday was a holiday so we'll have to see this week.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_
Squeaky SPC here.









Dump it and get the GC kit. That SPC kit is cheap and poorly made. There are too many reports of squeaks and bent cups to ignore - including mine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*

My KMACs are still going strong....no squeaks or rattles, holding camber fine.....


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (tyrolkid)*

My SPC kit, is holding up fine. Also a friend of mine has had no problems with his SPC kit on his daily driver. I blame installation errors for the plague of SPC problems that were on here.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_My SPC kit, is holding up fine. Also a friend of mine has had no problems with his SPC kit on his daily driver. I blame installation errors for the plague of SPC problems that were on here. 

I hope the squeeks are a result of an install error. That would make sense; since only the driver side squeeks. When the weather warms up a bit (WI sux); I will reassemble the driver-side assembly. (only takes all of an hour)


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_My SPC kit, is holding up fine. Also a friend of mine has had no problems with his SPC kit on his daily driver. I blame installation errors for the plague of SPC problems that were on here. 

Possibly...I've had no squeeking at all with my SPC...and no change in camber...except that which I changed...


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Girlsound)*

This SPC specific problem discussion should be in a different thread...
However, there is a possibility that the squeaking is something else:
With the SPC kit, only the drivers' side squeaked. I reinstalled it 3 times AND had a pro do it. The kit just isn't that complex - I can't buy 'installation error'. However, when I installed my GC kit I ran into a snag.
The drivers' side strut tower hole was just a LITTLE too small. I had to do a fair amount of work with a file to get it in. The passengers' side fit nearly perfect. When I discovered this, I looked for any signs of wear or rubbing on the outside of the SPC cup. I didn't find anything. Not that I could see.
However, there is a possibility in my mind that there are some out of spec stampings for this upper strut piece of the chassis. (It is stamped seperate, then welded - I think) Or perhaps the stampings are just toeing the line of spec. In any case, if this is the problem then both kits have an issue with it.
In the end, the GC kit - though more complex - is MUCH better designed and built. While the cast cup on the SPC kit could bend under severe bottoming (IE HUGE pothole) I think you would crack a ball joint off before you break the GC one. Plus the GC unit allows MUCH faster and easier adjustment of camber and caster INDEPENDANTLY.
That's why I say dump the SPC and move on. If you haven't bought it yet - don't bother, save up for the GC. If you can't afford the GC - loosen your ball joints (3 nuts) push them out and tighten. This is good for -1 degree camber, and it's free.










_Modified by AutoXMan at 8:09 PM 1-3-2005_


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
That's why I say dump the SPC and move on. If you haven't bought it yet - don't bother, save up for the GC. If you can't afford the GC - loosen your ball joints (3 nuts) push them out and tighten. This is good for -1 degree camber, and it's free.









_Modified by AutoXMan at 8:09 PM 1-3-2005_

I cannot justify another $350 for the GC plates after already purchasing the SPC plates. The SPC plates yielded -1.7 on my car. I have pulled the ball joints out as everyone should. GC - $350 for another -.8?








Back to the squeaking; would a massive grease job







alliviate some the squeaking?


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
That's why I say dump the SPC and move on. If you haven't bought it yet - don't bother, save up for the GC. If you can't afford the GC - loosen your ball joints (3 nuts) push them out and tighten. This is good for -1 degree camber, and it's free.









_Modified by AutoXMan at 8:09 PM 1-3-2005_

I cannot justify another $350 for the GC plates after already purchasing the SPC plates. The SPC plates yielded -1.7 on my car. I have pulled the ball joints out as everyone should. GC - $350 for another -.8?








Back to the squeaking; would a massive grease job







alliviate some the squeaking?


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (redwe-in-wi)*

No, $350 to eliminate the squeaking and give you caster / camber adjustment. If the adjustment isn't important to you then I was proposing that perhaps the -1 you can get with stock cups is enough camber anyway. Plus it's free and elminates the squeaks as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (AutoXMan)*

dont forget you use spherical bearings with the GC kit too. that shouldn't be neglected when comparing to spc, in my mind.

edited to add that i think spherical bearings is a plus.


_Modified by gelatin at 11:01 AM 1-5-2005_


----------



## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (gelatin)*

So how much noisier, rougher, is the GC ride compared to the SPC ride?
I bought the SPC's but haven't installed them yet.


----------



## fritzner (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (keycom)*

the GC kits are definitely superior.. but for only hitting the track twice a year, the SPC gave me just the right amount of camber (-1.8).. handling was greatly improved without the risk of excessive tire wear..
i initially had terrible squeeking, i couldnt get the top caps to sit flat.. after several tries, and a little chamferring to the peg, they sit flat, have been holding tight and not one squeek in a couple months..
it comes down to how seriously you race, how deep your pockets are, or a fine balance of both..


----------



## 3ManArmy (Aug 6, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (keycom)*

Just replaced my SPC's with GC's on my R32. No noticeable difference in ride quality, definitely not harsh. Seems to have eliminated a bit of "lost motion' feeling in the suspension. 
The SPC kit upon removal was showing signs of the bonded rubber delaminating in the bearing seat area. I ran these for about 2K miles, they squeaked for the last 1500 miles. I would suggest you lubricate the bearing seat area w/ silicon grease before installing these. 
The GC kits are extremely well designed and manufactured. I have spent much more and received much less. The independently adjustable Camber/Caster feature is worth the price alone.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (3ManArmy)*

I'm really happy to hear that you guys like the camber plates. It's nice to see something that was originally intended to be a one off part for my own car turn into something that others can use. 
Just to update those that are waiting on the spring hat for spring/strut configuration, it's still not back from CNC yet. There was originally a backlog and then a lack of inventory of billet. I let everyone know right away as soon as the parts arrive.
Steve


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_I'm really happy to hear that you guys like the camber plates. It's nice to see something that was originally intended to be a one off part for my own car turn into something that others can use. 
Just to update those that are waiting on the spring hat for spring/strut configuration, it's still not back from CNC yet. There was originally a backlog and then a lack of inventory of billet. I let everyone know right away as soon as the parts arrive.
Steve

...fingures crossed...


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (fritzner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fritzner* »_
i initially had terrible squeeking, i couldnt get the top caps to sit flat.. after several tries, and a little chamferring to the peg, they sit flat, have been holding tight and not one squeek in a couple months..

I have had terrible squeeking lately as well, until yesterday. I chamferred the peg and applied grease liberally (where the rubber rubs the strut tower) to the top cap.







Torqued back to spec and no squeeking. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







It has only been 24hrs and 40 miles, hoping it will hold up.
BTW, I am not ponying up for GC's; need to save the racing budget for Azenis 615's. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (redwe-in-wi)*

so how much total neg camber can you get with the GC's ?
I'm very interested


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (16vracer)*

The kit is designed to provide a conservative 1.8 degree change over stock. Total negative camber will be based on how much camber you have to start with. I've seen stock cars with 0 to -1.1 stock. I recent customer was able to get -2.7 degrees of camber with the GC kit. That's not to say that you're car will be able to do the same.
Steve


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

thanks for the quick answer. I will be ordering some soon. Are they instock now?
Can I set up a business account with you? I have a business license and tax id # .


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (16vracer)*

The kits are in stock except we're out of inventory for the spherical bearings. Additional bearings should be arriving tomorrow hopefully. Let me check on the business acct stuff an IM you privately.
Steve


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

ok, let me know.....
so are you saying the $359 doesn't include the necessary bearings?


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (16vracer)*

The price is $339 + shipping. That will include everything necessary to install. However, I ran out of bearings last week and was waiting to refresh my inventory before I could ship anymore kits.
The bearings came in today so I can start shipping again. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (reflexgti)*

cool, I may order some soon


----------



## mityVR6 (Feb 25, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (16vracer)*

This last weekend, I installed a set of Steven's camber plates on my 2001 Jetta VR6. So far, I'm very happy with the results.
The fit and finish of the kit is second to none. All parts line up precisely, with laser-etched markings and laser-cut washers to align the camber adjustment exactly. My initial rough measurements indicate about 2.7 degrees negative camber on the passenger side. I'll have a front-end alignment done soon and will be able to share more accurate readings at that time.
My suspension setup consists of:
H&R coilovers
Bilstein PSS9 rear springs (for slightly higher spring rates)
CPP adjustable front endlinks
VW Racing front control arm bushings
18x8 et35 OZ wheels
225-40-18 Dunlop SP Super Sport R-compound tires
Neuspeed 28mm rear swaybar (not installed at this time, but going back on soon)
Cornering is very confident, even without the rear swaybar installed. The front end takes a set and the rear is quite willing to rotate with all the front-end grip. Tire wear looks to be very even across the front tread. It corners so well that I'm not yet convinced the rear swaybar will again be necessary. I'm going to test it with and without the bar, and with the bar in each adjustment setting, but no bar at all is still quite impressive.
The design of the replacement upper spring hat and the assembly that supports it during the compression stroke is brilliant. Steve's design will dramatically lengthen the lifespan of the spherical bearing that is responsible for fastening the stop of the strut to the camber plate, as all compression-induced weight and stress is directed straight into the chassis strut towers. This is just like the stock strut mount design, and is the strongest and most reliable way to go. Steven's design allows the strut to rotate as the car steers, with no hint of binding up or placing side loads on the strut shafts.
Steven has engineered a top quality kit. There are no shortcuts or cut corners here. If you want a high performance alignment solution for your VW, this is it.
-Adam


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (mityVR6)*

i'm so glad to hear that we have a good product out for the camber/caster on the cars. This mod will be greeting my car hopefully spring time, more likely mid summer though. no more churning through tires w/ the outside tread blasted off smooth, and needed to use stupid high tire pressures to prevent roll over. I cannot wait......


_Modified by Banditt007 at 3:49 PM 1-20-2005_


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (mityVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mityVR6* »_This last weekend, I installed a set of Steven's camber plates on my 2001 Jetta VR6. So far, I'm very happy with the results.
The fit and finish of the kit is second to none. All parts line up precisely, with laser-etched markings and laser-cut washers to align the camber adjustment exactly. My initial rough measurements indicate about 2.7 degrees negative camber on the passenger side. I'll have a front-end alignment done soon and will be able to share more accurate readings at that time.
-Adam

If you haven't cut the strut tops or moved the LCAs outwards, you'll probably be closer to -1.8 or so. I can't get more than -2.3 with the KMAC plates and TT LCAS at max negative.....


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

The hats for the spring/strut configuration just came in. I can take orders for all setups now!
Steve


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## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

This may have been asked before, but how is the "ride" comfort, streetable?
Or race use only?


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (keycom)*

As expected, the lack of rubber in the top mounts do cause ride quality to decrease. It's really hard to quantify as comfort is very subjective but I've heard people say that putting on these plates decrease ride quality by 20%. My own opinion is that it's quite comfortable for street use.


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## Dicardo (Dec 14, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

This borders on being a stupid question, but where is the value to this modification? How does this kit alter my current ability to adjust my current alignment?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (Dicardo)*

this allows you to adjust camber and caster. stock cars can only adjust toe settings. it is a very valid upgrade for handling and tire wear. i've seen stock 20ths wear the outsides of the tires w/ the inners still being moderately fresh, so its good economically speaking and from a handling persepective.


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## mityVR6 (Feb 25, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_As expected, the lack of rubber in the top mounts do cause ride quality to decrease. It's really hard to quantify as comfort is very subjective but I've heard people say that putting on these plates decrease ride quality by 20%. My own opinion is that it's quite comfortable for street use. 

Steve, my own experience has been that ride quality has not suffered to any noticeable degree. In fact, I believe the camber plates have actually helped my coilovers dampen impacts more effectively by extending the shock shafts a bit.
As you guys all know, a damper does not fuction optimally at the extremes of its travel. While my car is not dumped to the weeds, I do believe the H&R coilovers suffer some loss of damping as you go lower and lower. Since the camber plates raise the attachment point of the shock shaft a bit higher than the stock mounts, the shock shafts are extended a bit when the spring perches are adjusted to compensate the ride height (I had to wind the lower perches up several full turns to compensate!) This puts the dampers closer to their optimal stroke and I do believe has helped the ride quality of my Jetta. Even harsh roads (like 101 South through Mountain View) are quite tolerable with the camber plates installed. And I'm riding on 18" Dunlop R-compound tires and have the VWRacing control arm bushings installed, too! I have noticed *much* more significant changes in ride quality between different tires, or sizes of tire, than I noticed after installing the camber plates.
Anyway, if you want your car to handle well and have the requisite suspension modifications to acheive that goal, you probably aren't too concerned with ride quality. However, if you have to drive your car everyday I can see how it might matter to you (it mattered to me before I bought a second car to commute in.) I would have to say that the camber plates haven't made a dramatic difference in my car's ride quality.
-Adam


_Modified by mityVR6 at 9:09 PM 1-20-2005_


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## mityVR6 (Feb 25, 2001)

*Re: (Dicardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dicardo* »_This borders on being a stupid question, but where is the value to this modification? How does this kit alter my current ability to adjust my current alignment?

Additional camber is useful if you track or autocross your car because it allows you to use more of your tires available contact patch. As your car leans over in a turn, a tire with little camber will tend to roll under. A tire with greater negative camber will tend to flatten against the road, which is effectively pressed into the road by the cornering force of the car. In short, a car with more negative camber can corner faster than a car with less negative camber.
Your VW's suspension is quite non-adjustable with respect to camber and caster. Camber plates provide you with an adjustable upper strut mount that allows you to tailor the amounts of static camber and caster for better cornering.
Keep in mind the camber plates we're talking about are designed to provide a means of acheiving better cornering behavior, and not reduced tire wear during highway driving. While these plates could theoretically be used to dial out negative camber, that wasn't a design priority. Most VWs, unless they have a damaged front suspension, don't exhibit enough negative camber to harm your tires, anyway. Furthermore, people who autocross or track their car are counting on the additional negative camber to *even out* their tire wear during cornering, since most race tires aren't designed for high mileage wear, anyway.
-Adam


_Modified by mityVR6 at 9:17 PM 1-20-2005_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Dicardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dicardo* »_This borders on being a stupid question, but where is the value to this modification? How does this kit alter my current ability to adjust my current alignment?

Not a stupid question at all! I'll summarize what others have written and add a blurb to the opening page of the thread.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

back to the front


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Here's a review from an Audi TT owner who recently installed a camber kit. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/1203124.phtml


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## [email protected]_VVuLFzBoRg (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (mityVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mityVR6* »_
Keep in mind the camber plates we're talking about are designed to provide a means of acheiving better cornering behavior, and not reduced tire wear during highway driving. While these plates could theoretically be used to dial out negative camber, that wasn't a design priority.
_Modified by mityVR6 at 9:17 PM 1-20-2005_

so should i buy some to improve my tire wear or not?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected]_VVuLFzBoRg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]_VVuLFzBoRg* »_so should i buy some to improve my tire wear or not?

If you currently have tire wear problems such as wearing one side of the tire more than the other, a camber kit can help.
For instance, with close to 0° camber, my outside tire edges were wearing like crazy when I went to lapping days at the local race track. Bumping the camber to -1° pretty much solved the problem and I don't notice any additional wear from regular highway driving!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Here's a review from an Audi TT owner who recently installed a camber kit. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/1203124.phtml
 Im sent


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ Im sent 

Replied to your IM http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Since I can't afford to make my plates, I have been just thinking of making the plans available for people to take to a machine shop themselves. I own the patent on it so it's mine to give away. I know some of you were waiting for me to make these and I would have loved to make money off of them but right now I would just like to get my money back from the patent process. 
















edit: the pics are of the prototype set, the newest version fits much better.


_Modified by hans j at 1:15 PM 1-31-2005_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

Thats a nice & simple design from the looks of it. What kind of bearing does it use? Is there any rubber at all in there or is it all metal?
Care to post the patent ID so we can look it up at:
http://www.uspto.gov/











_Modified by phatvw at 12:45 PM 1-31-2005_


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Uses a replaceable spherical bearing available from Aurora, page 63. 
I still owe the patent attorneys money so it is not up yet, but the paperwork is done.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_Uses a replaceable spherical bearing available from Aurora, page 63. 
I still owe the patent attorneys money so it is not up yet, but the paperwork is done.

Hans, great choice of bearings. We use the same bearings for the GC kit!
Steve


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Bump this up .Just received my plates today . Quick service , nice build qaulity . Should work well with my new coilovers setup , when ever i make my mind up on the route i want to go







. Friday is my deadline . Ill let you know how everything turns out. Thanks again steve







Bob.G


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Enjoy! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwbora1 (Sep 15, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Thats a nice & simple design from the looks of it. What kind of bearing does it use? Is there any rubber at all in there or is it all metal?

All metal.







Those pics are of my car - I have been lucky enough to be the test bed for Hans' great design. I have probably 4000 miles on the setup with zero problems. 2.25 degress, daily driven.
Eric


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (vwbora1)*

add me to the list of happy ground control users. 
the car has a more "solid" feel than it did with the SPC. i don't really know how to articulate the change in feel other than saying it seems more solid somehow. 
the ride isn't any more rough, with the spherical bearings. not that i can tell. 
the front sits a little over a half inch lower than it did with the SPC plates.
also, the way the GC kit works, you tighten the nut on top of the strut before you set the camber to full negative. once you have it set to full negative, you can no longer get a socket over the nut. from this, its safe to say that these produce more camber. i'll have numbers thursday, and we'll know how much more...
here's my post install pics...i don't have any with the SPC but thursday i'll post the numbers...


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Anyone could share some hard numbers? I mean, any tests before-after, like break-away speed difference in the same curve, etc. Something that can help me picture who much of a result a degree and a half gives compare to stock. Thanks.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (pyce)*

i will post SPC->GC numbers this week. 
as far as going from stock, i have no numbers. i will say that when i first added some camber the car felt a lot more "there" for me. it stayed more neutral through the middle of the corners...where it would kind of tend to understeer sooner with out negative camber. felt a little more sharp on turn in too. you most certainly notice the additional 1.5-1.8 degrees negative camber.

edit: --pyce, i have a two day autocross/test-and-tune this weekend through the local car club. perfect for testing. i'll get a very experienced/consistant driver to take a lap with no added camber and then one with camber. i'll post his times next week... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by gelatin at 6:23 PM 2-14-2005_


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## O2VW1.8T (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: (pyce)*

i might order these sometime lol. If i do , we have a alignment machine and i will do before and after


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (O2VW1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *O2VW1.8T* »_i might order these sometime lol. If i do , we have a alignment machine and i will do before and after

Just remember that changes in camber will affect your toe alignment as well so you'll want to take that into consideration when you do your testing. Thanks for all the positive comments!
Steve


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Has anyone tested to find out how much the toe changes from adjusting camber? From most positive to most negative how much will toe change?


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Has anyone tested to find out how much the toe changes from adjusting camber? From most positive to most negative how much will toe change?

...when i first got the spc plates the toe changed a bit. i'm at a loss as to the numbers though.


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Has anyone tested to find out how much the toe changes from adjusting camber? From most positive to most negative how much will toe change?
I actually had peter (pyce) run this through his model of the mk4 suspension. There were some pretty big toe changes actually. If I remember correctly he set the car at -2deg camber and zero toe, and as the car went to 0 camber the toe went to toe in pretty bad. Like .5" or something. He was supposed to get soem measurements and rerun the simulation so I should probably get back to him.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

This is opposite of what I have heard, and what I think should happen. If the struts move in (more negative) then the steering arms push out on the back of the knuckle more, turning the fronts of the tires in. Summary: Making camber more negative = toe in. Therefore going from -2 camber to 0 *should* produce toe out. 
If what you said is correct, that would be excellent. I could set the toe at 0 for say -1.5 and dial in -2 or more at the track PLUS some toe out. But like I said, I think this is backwards.
Please check on this, if you can. Or Peter - if you are listening - what are the numbers and which way does it go?


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

think about the near 8 degrees of caster. ok, 7.5 but whatever. so think about a line 7.5 degrees toward the rear of the car from verticle that runs from the top strut mount down to the front wheel. if i move the top strut point towards the engine, then this 7.5 degrees should make the wheel at the other end of the strut turn OUT.(right?) i dunno, hupefully i said enough to convey my picture...
but this is me not paying attention to where the steering arm is...


_Modified by gelatin at 7:47 AM 2-15-2005_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_
Just remember that changes in camber will affect your toe alignment as well so you'll want to take that into consideration when you do your testing. Thanks for all the positive comments!
Steve
 Ill try to get my car on the rack for a BEFORE and AFTER to check both camber and castor when installing the new G.C. camber plates . . The suspenison came today sould have time hopefully this weekend , ill post back







Bob.G


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## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Please check on this, if you can. Or Peter - if you are listening - what are the numbers and which way does it go?
I sent Peter a PM sp hopefully Ill get an answer back. I could have it backwards and we went from 0 camber and 0 toe to -2 deg camber and .5" toe in. The toe definitely changed from a slight toe out or 0 toe to a large toe in. It was a few weeks ago that he sent me the info and I didnt save the PM he had sent. If he doesnt see this post Ill be sure and post the numbers when he gets back to me.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*

Got the IM. The last three weeks had been very busy and really no time to go deeper into this, but looks like things will be getting better here, so this or next week we can put some numbers together. The only thing I wrote down on piece of paper was that the model was set to 0 toe at -0,493 degree camber (stock) and then we changed the camber to a total of -1.928, so the toe went in quiet some, but I do not remember the number. But this was some quick modeling, so if we want the accurate numbers, I have to find exactly where the rods are attached, etc. It will happen, but not today. Sorry.


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (pyce)*

It definitely changes enough to warrant an alignment. If you don't, you will be plowing through tires and the car will dart erratically. I had thought about changes in toe and how to change them back to stock after a race but after about 7 months of being on the car at full camber, inside tire wear is minimal.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*

So, you are running 0 toe at how much camber do you have? How many miles?


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## Shad (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Is it necessary to grease the bearings of the GC camber plate?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Shad)*

I know this is only for a MK IV but any possibility these could be adapted for an Audi 80?


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
edit: --pyce, i have a two day autocross/test-and-tune this weekend through the local car club. perfect for testing. i'll get a very experienced/consistant driver to take a lap with no added camber and then one with camber. i'll post his times next week... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


...our tnt is being rained out. so i just raced at full camber while i could today. (competing is more important than experimenting right?) my last autox was on spc plates and hankook r compounds, this on was on the GC plates. the car had WAY more oversteer today. the camber plates being the only change. haven't had an alignment yet, i'll go get everything measured, to report camber/toe, but after today i don't think i'll change anything.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*

I guess you're liking the added front end grip! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Bump for Steve , because we can ALL use more camber







Bob.G im sent


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

gelatin, could you give some more details please...... when you say the car had "WAY more oversteer" - in which particular scenarios the car was oversteering? How were you driving? Please describe in details a particular curve in which you had oversteer, from the way you entered it, through the whole curve, until the car is back on full acceleration in straight line. Thanks.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_gelatin, could you give some more details please...... when you say the car had "WAY more oversteer" - in which particular scenarios the car was oversteering? How were you driving? Please describe in details a particular curve in which you had oversteer, from the way you entered it, through the whole curve, until the car is back on full acceleration in straight line. Thanks.

i'll do my best pyce, but i'm not sure i'm a technical enough driver to do a great job. however, i do know what oversteer feels like.
...i usually keep just enough pressure in the front tires to keep them from rolling. the rear have maybe three or four psi less. the first "section" from the timing boxes: the first turn was a fairly open bend to the right that leaves the entrance and exit directions with about 65 degrees between them. followed by a very small straight into a tighter left that has about 90 degrees between entering and exiting directions. this left transitions into a decreasing radius to the right that left you entering a slalom. the change in entering and exiting directions of the right turn were around 225 degrees and there was a very breif straight between the left and this right. i didn't brake for the first turn, just off throttle. the car always had a very neutral sort of drift to it at the exit of this turn which went away when i got on throttle again. off throttle for the left, and here i would expect oversteer to some degree just for having lifted throttle, but it felt like more than i was used to. normally i would feel the slip angles shrink and that would be it, with this set up the rear of the car would begin to slip out around mid corner. back on throttle and straightening the wheel a bit to keep going in the direction i wanted to go. brake a little before entering the decreasing radius to the right. i'm a new driver but i tend to get all my braking done before i turn, i've only ever found understeer when i dont stop braking soon enough. so now into the decreasing radius with no braking and no throttle. after about 90 degrees of the full 225 that comprise this turn, the car would rotate like a rear wheel drive if i were in throttle. i was a little startled the first time. i've only managed this kind of rotation in a few instances before. one would be slalom with bad throttling and half a tak of fuel. the other would be throttle lift on wet pavement with falken azenis tires. the lot was dry for my five runs this day. the car never rotated like that with these tires before either... 
...by the end of my runs i felt like i was in a video game through this whole section. it seemed like at anytime, i could lift throttle and the car would rotate( more rotation than you'd expect with the given steering wheel position) or i could apply throttle to keep straighter. it was a very nice feeling and not one i've had previously. balance is the first word it made me think of. it was just easy to balance the car there. i ended up tenth where, against the same guys, i'm more often around 15th...and its no fluke time. i ran the same time to the hundreths twice in a row, my last two runs. i hope i gave you what you wanted and if not, try to tease it out... the car handled different though, that's for sure.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Yeah I felt quite a difference just going from a roughly 0° stock setup to the -1° SPC plates. It really does help balance out the handling. I don't think I get oversteer like you though. Just very neutral-feeling. BTW what rear-bar and/or springs/dampers do you have?



_Modified by phatvw at 12:57 PM 2-21-2005_


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

April autox can't come soon enough. I hate WI weather. I have only ran the car once with -camber.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_ Just very neutral-feeling. BTW what rear-bar and/or springs/dampers do you have?


...i agree, when i used SPC the difference was obvious when compared to stock even in normal driving. when i went to the GC plates i didn't notice much of a change in my daily driving, maybe i'm not trying hard enough







but autox is different ... anyway, suspension on the car is full shine(bilstien HDs, 225# fronts, 180# rears, shine's rear sway bar) on 15x7" wheels with hankook ventus r compound tires...i think the deal is that once it starts three-wheeling, the rear just comes around. 



_Modified by gelatin at 3:38 PM 2-21-2005_


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_...i usually keep just enough pressure in the front tires to keep them from rolling. the rear have maybe three or four psi less.

What tires did you have? I read they were R compound and on 15x7 wheel, but could you give more details like size, tread wear, etc…. Also, what pressure were they all set to?

_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_... i didn't brake for the first turn, just off throttle. the car always had a very neutral sort of drift to it at the exit of this turn which went away when i got on throttle again. off throttle for the left, and here i would expect oversteer to some degree just for having lifted throttle, but it felt like more than i was used to.

The key thing here is – was your speed higher than usual at that point and by how much or was your speed the same as before and you just had more oversteer this time?



_Modified by pyce at 10:56 AM 2-22-2005_


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_What tires did you have? I read they were R compound and on 15x7 wheel, but could you give more details like size, tread wear, etc…. Also, what pressure were they all set to?

 205/50/15, fronts were ~39psi-38psi rears were ~35-36psi...tread wear is rated 50...

_Quote »_
The key thing here is – was your speed higher than usual at that point and by how much or was your speed the same as before and you just had more oversteer this time?

...i can't say much here. i'm not sure what "before" and "this time" should mean. the autox course is different everytime, so i don't have a "before" with the SPC on this course. but is that what you're meaning... ?


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Basically I am trying to understand if the oversteer you are reporting is due to the fact that you are now going faster, which means your front with the new added camber is now sticking more to the ground, therefore the speed through corners is higher and therefore the rear (where nothing had changed) is now where you lost more grip, but not because you "lost" it there, but because you gained more in the front...... or if your speed is the same as before (old camber vs. new camber) but you now simply have more oversteer.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Basically I am trying to understand if the oversteer you are reporting is due to the fact that you are now going faster, which means your front with the new added camber is now sticking more to the ground, therefore the speed through corners is higher and therefore the rear (where nothing had changed) is now where you lost more grip, but not because you "lost" it there, but because you gained more in the front...... or if your speed is the same as before (old camber vs. new camber) but you now simply have more oversteer.

...i would think its the first point. the front is just sticking better. is lots or just enough? i dunno, but i'll take it.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Do you happen to have pictures of your front tires, after the competition? Like before and after the camber change? Would be nice to see how much "less" rolling over the walls your tires have due to the camber gain. I am just trying to get any possible data and put some numbers behind the feelings everyone reports. Would like to basically try to quantify what a one degree camber gives to an A4.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Do you happen to have pictures of your front tires, after the competition? Like before and after the camber change? Would be nice to see how much "less" rolling over the walls your tires have due to the camber gain. I am just trying to get any possible data and put some numbers behind the feelings everyone reports. Would like to basically try to quantify what a one degree camber gives to an A4. 

...mmm, i don't have pics of them before. i could take them now but who'd care? the outer edges are still where most of the wear happens...
maybe we should all do some skid pad testing. i can get a older model Gtech to sort of measure the Gs for a fixed radious turn, i can note the max speed. i'll have to schedule some free time to do this so its not like i'm running out now, but this would be fun to do...


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## placenta (Jun 3, 2003)

hmm. since im doing a fully functional suspension replacment.. maybe ill buy those camber plates too.. especially if my car ends up being higher than stock, so i can adjust them.
After seeing the price... maybe i wont buy them 'just for the hell of it'..


_Modified by placenta at 12:47 PM 2-22-2005_


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (placenta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *placenta* »_ especially if my car ends up being higher than stock, so i can adjust them.
After seeing the price... maybe i wont buy them 'just for the hell of it'..

...if you buy them, you will know it wasn't "just for the hell of it"...
...with the GC the front is about .5" lower than with the SPC, i wish i remebered how much the SPC raised the front.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_...if you buy them, you will know it wasn't "just for the hell of it"...
...with the GC the front is about .5" lower than with the SPC, i wish i remebered how much the SPC raised the front.

I think the SPC only raises the front when compared to an old, worn-out strut mount. Wel they didn't visibly change my ride height much at all even with 25,000miles on my old strut mounts, but I suppose I should measure the fender to center of the wheels to confirm...


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I think the SPC only raises the front when compared to an old, worn-out strut mount. 

...? they went on at 35k. didn't seem anything was shot, but who knows.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








This thread needs more pics


----------



## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Am I the only one running the Shine Camber plates? Granted, they don't have the cool and more traditional camber plate look of the GC units, but I think they are pretty good and actually look to be more 'solid' installed then either the SPC or the GC units.
I've got about -1.3 degrees on both sides running the V6 SRS kit (250 fr/200r springs, Bilsteins, rear bar).
Really good neutral handling for the street and recreational autocross.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Crash6)*

3wheelinwolf ( i think) also uses them. i'm sure there are more than two of you. "solid" meaning bolted in, yeah... but i have no complaints with the GC so far. i still need to go have alignment though... my time management sucks...


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Crash6)*

We designed the GC unit to have a non impacted spherical bearing. I'm curious to hear why you feel the Shine unit to be more solid.








Steve


----------



## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

I have ZERO experience with the GC camber plate. I have never seen one in person, only in pictures. It is a beautiful piece and one I would buy in a heartbeat if I didn't already have the Shine units.
The reason I said they _look_ more solid, is because the Shine unit actually bolts to the underside of the strut tower top, and is the same circumfrence as the strut tower top. There is only one hole with a spherical bearing for the strut to pass through and everything is fixed into place; there is no possibility of movement in any of the components barring a major accident. Granted, this is also the downside as you don't have adjustability like the GC unit, but I never intend to run anything less then the max allowable negative camber anyway, so they worked out for me. Thats where I was coming from. 
I wasn't intending to incite a "whats better" thread. I love those GC plates and wish that I had held out for them. I was just pointing out a constructional difference. 


_Modified by Crash6 at 3:49 AM 3-7-2005_


----------



## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Double post. Sorry.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Crash6)*

Bump for Steve( G.C plates ) because im loving the front grip







. If you want the mk IV to handle , these camber plates work great . Another thing is if you get a set of coilovers , that gives you all the adjustments you need for neutral balance ( all the above is taking in account that you have good tire grip )







Bob.G


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_This thread needs more pics
Quite a good idea! This was an Alfa Romeo trackday at Portland International Raceway.
R32 with Bilstein PSS9 & VF Stage 2 on Kumho V700 owned by GTI-337








My car. GTI 1.8T Eibach Pro-System, VWMS strut bushings, 25mm Neuspeed RSB on full stiff.








Both cars do not have the rear seats, spare tire or much of anything else.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (eggroller)*

Wow. You can really see the weight difference in the nose of the R.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Wow. You can really see the weight difference in the nose of the R.
Yeah ,but look how much faster he is running in that pic







 Bob.G


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_Yeah ,but look how much faster he is running in that pic







Bob.G

Looks like the exposure settings between the two pics are completely different, so I don't think you can judge speed by those pics. It is also two different sections of track so who knows how sharp the turns are.
The real question is how much faster they would look if they had camber plates on










_Modified by phatvw at 5:37 PM 3-9-2005_


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Looks like the exposure settings between the two pics are completely different, so I don't think you can judge speed by those pics. It is also two different sections of track so who knows how sharp the turns are.
Same turn on the same track. However, at a different point on the exit of the turn. The pictures were taken by different cameras (Canon Digital Rebel and my Canon G6). The R32 had a much higher cornering speed as well as a better driver to achieve such speeds. I was accelerating at the limit of adhesion for my Michelin Pilot Sports. The R32 was accelerating as hard as he could on his Kumho V700s which felt like there was plenty of grip (I found out in a ride along later).
I just thought that it would be an interesting comparison of the R32 suspension vs my suspension. I have already started collecting the R32/TT front suspension parts. I just need the spindles and camber plates.


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (eggroller)*

New addition...








http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...av=10


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Girlsound)*

Added to the list!
Looks sort of like a more sturdy version of the SPC design. Not a bad price either.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Actually not like the SPC but rather the Shine one..










_Modified by reflexgti at 8:34 PM 3-15-2005_


----------



## SRSVW (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Since when is aluminum sturdier than steel?
Dick Shine


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (SRSVW)*

I take it back, not as sturdy as steel but it does offer more adjustment range due to the multiple holes. Bearind *seems* to be bigger with the Bildon over yours but pictures can be deceiving.
Steve


_Modified by reflexgti at 12:13 AM 3-16-2005_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (SRSVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_Since when is aluminum sturdier than steel?
Dick Shine

Dick, you have to understand that us folks from the MTV generation are attracted to shiny things. Billet aluminum _looks_ sturdier than coated steel. Plus the steel industry hasn't run a "steel is stronger" ad campaing in a few years...


----------



## SRSVW (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Actually the use of aluminum means thicker bearing holder thickness and less possible range! Less negative camber plate than mine,even if the amount is small. Shiny does not mean better,just shiny.
Dick Shine


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (SRSVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_Actually the use of aluminum means thicker bearing holder thickness and less possible range! Less negative camber plate than mine,even if the amount is small

I was referring to the flexibility of adjusting caster in small increments with the many holes. Anyway, the offset amount is tough to say based on the pictures. Their thicker bearing holder may have no impact at all with regards to the maximum about of camber. There may be other factors such as clearance of the top nut against the shock tower cup that supercede bearing holder thickness. There's also consideration for bearing durability as well. Looking at your top hat design, it places impact loads directly on the axial path of the bearing which is not where a spherical bearing is strongest . With this being the case, bearing size will determine static load limit which will translate to bearing durability. The smaller the bearing, the less the service life with all else being equal. Without having your kit or the Bildon kit in hand, I can't be positive but your bearing does "appear" to be smaller than the Bildon kit as well as my kit from the pictures. Again, it could just be an illusion based on the photo so don't hold me to that.
It's just my opinion. There are a limited number of camber options for the mk4 platform currently with them falling into different price points. We can agree that all the solutions are an improvement over stock camber specifications. Consumers are better off with the ability to select a camber solution based on their individual needs as well as cost restrictions. Obviously, I'm biased as well since I have my own camber product I'm marketing.
Steve (GC)


_Modified by reflexgti at 12:17 AM 3-16-2005_


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

I didn't have any issues using aluminum plates in my design, the only thing holding back more camber is the body. I made mine to be direct replacements, no ride height change at all. And would be a direct swap from regular springs to coilovers, no extra pieces needed. They still provide around -2 degrees of camber with more available if you want to cut some metal.
I have a feeling everyone is using the same Aurora bearing and it holds about 5,000 lbs axial so those will last. I actually tried to find the narrow version because it would have worked better for me but they weren't available and probably weren't going to make them for a while when I called them.
STAsIS should have some plates out in a bit too. I saw something about them on the R32 forum a while ago.


----------



## jpop (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_
STAsIS should have some plates out in a bit too. I saw something about them on the R32 forum a while ago.

Actually Stasis decided to scrap their camber plate development for the MKIV. Oh well, there are still some great options.


----------



## SRSVW (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (jpop)*

Actually Reflex the size of the bearing directly relates to how much camber is available. Getting the center as close to the edge of the body is important and that is why I located mine like I did and ruled out other designs. Adjusting any of these is a simple matter of drilling holes,it isnt rocket science. My plates were developed at the request of Solo racers to give the maxixmum negative camber possible,and from what I have seen they hit the target perfectly. 

Dick Shine
PS thousands use these same bearings on the track and dont have problems.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (SRSVW)*

So what bearings did you use?


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Another camber option that shoudl be available shortly:http://www.h-sport.com/cgi-bin...30813 They did an article in the new eurotuner about the H sport suspension setup. According to the article the camber adjustment goes to -2.25 deg. The suspension setup included Ohlins shocks/struts with adjustable spring perches. I forget the spring rates as I dont get the mag I just saw it on the cover in the store and started reading. They also had a 27mm front bar and a 32mm rear bar. 


_Modified by NOVAdub at 6:14 PM 3-18-2005_


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*

Interesting design on the H-Sports. However, the their website says it's not designed for coilovers and adjustability is -0.25 to 1.25? I wonder who's right?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Interesting design on the H-Sports. However, the their website says it's not designed for coilovers and adjustability is -0.25 to 1.25? I wonder who's right?
 Steve H- Sport is a new division of Hotchkis for sub-compact cars .I have that article in eurotuner and i see there front sway bar diesgn for the MKiv they went with the straight type bar, like what is used on the Audi TT.








Bob.G


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

The article did also mention that they were available for coilover setups. Interesting design, but Ill be ordering a set of the GC plates in the next few weeks.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*

It looks like they will require some drilling into the towers, so they wont' be as reversible as the GC units, any truth behind that?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

I don't know much about the kit other than what's on their website and it says that it won't work with coilovers and the range is maxed at 1.25 degrees. The picture looks like it'll require drilling but I don't even know if the photo is of the actual kit. Good to see another option on the market though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Steve


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOVAdub* »_The article did also mention that they were available for coilover setups. Interesting design, but Ill be ordering a set of the GC plates in the next few weeks. 

I appreciate the business. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

I found a picture of the H-Sport kit and it looks like the kit requires drilling 3 holes and cutting off the strut top cup.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Pic isn't working for some reason. I followed the HTML code there, though. That's messed up. Not only do you cut the strut tower, BUT they use a HUGE bearing / upper mount assembly that means you can't get very close to the hole you cut! If you're willing to go that far, plates like HansJ designed would be better.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Here is a better pic of the adjustment in my plates. It still has about 1/4 -3/8 inch travel left but we didn't want to cut the strut towers.


----------



## vwbora1 (Sep 15, 2000)

*Re: (hans j)*

These plates above are awesome. Here are results from yesterday from a very competitive SM class. The 4th place driver was actually in my car as well. The only cars to beat us in SM were a nationally-competitive E36 M3, a big HP EVO, and a heavily prepped ITR, all on Hoosiers (we were running Victos).
http://results.utahscca.com/re...n.htm
Eric


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (vwbora1)*

Great results Eric. Glad to see another mk4 be somewhat competitive in SM. I noticed your events are smaller with 72 drivers. That must be nice compared to the SFR region with 241 driver entries! 
Steve


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_Here is a better pic of the adjustment in my plates. It still has about 1/4 -3/8 inch travel left but we didn't want to cut the strut towers.










You could just knotch the body near the strut bolt and pick up another half degree.


----------



## keycom (Sep 27, 2001)

Good enough info to belong on the FRONT page!


----------



## klasikJ (Mar 1, 2005)

got h&r cup kit installed.problems with fron camber...one is + the other is -
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1931708

camber kit ? or...check again on alignment? 
thx guys...im kinda desperate here.drop look very very good though.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (klasikJ)*

loosen your sub frame bolts and shift the subframe. You get more camber on one side, less on the other.


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

you can also loosen up the 3 bolts that hold the ball joint to the control arm and pull the wheel outward for more neg camber, and in for positive. perhaps try this before moving the subframe around. 
PS when loosening the subframe reinstall new bolts and torque exactly to spec.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_you can also loosen up the 3 bolts that hold the ball joint to the control arm and pull the wheel outward for more neg camber, and in for positive. perhaps try this before moving the subframe around. 
PS when loosening the subframe reinstall new bolts and torque exactly to spec.

You dont get very much from the ball joint. You need these
























Erickson motorsports World challenge goodies


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Erickson motorsports World challenge goodies


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_









Right. How much?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

How much you got


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

I believe they were custom parts and in the $1200 range... Fear not though, I'm working on something for you guys.
Steve


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_How much you got









Hmm. 3' steel tubing, custom bracket, 3 heim joints, some welding.... $50 each?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

note that they appear to be using the OEM spindles on the touring car, not sure if they are TT, or GTI, but no custom million dollar spindles. I wonder if their "ball joint" has an adapter to move the pivot point down. The car is pretty low. 
http://www.ericksonmotorsports.com


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_










It is interesting to see that separate piece (from the picture). Looks like you could adjust its length by rotating it, and perhaps (if that is correct) you could get some more camber (if the other pickup point is adjustable too) or you could even modify the caster if needed, plus making the track wider. As you said, would be nice to know if they lowered the ball as well. If they did so, this A-arm would be a more complete solution (that gives more options) than just the TT spindles. The nice part is that you may be able to get some camber from this A-arm (if above assumptions are correct) and so for modest camber gains there is no need for camber plates, which will maintain the stock components.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (pyce)*

Just keep in mind that the lower adjustment range is limited due to driveshaft length. You can extend the control arm somewhat but a camber plate will still be needed for any serious track use.
Steve


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

They may have changed the driveshaft length too, or have made that one adjustable too? But I guess that will bring the cost higher and higher.....
Steve, you mentioned you are doing something on this matter. What is it? Could you disclose at this point? Thanks.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Just keep in mind that the lower adjustment range is limited due to driveshaft length. You can extend the control arm somewhat but a camber plate will still be needed for any serious track use.

You also don't need to pull the bottom of the ball joint out much to make a very large difference in camber. The working arm on the camber plates are 2' long, so a 1degree difference is roughly an inch (sorry - calc is not with me). At a 4" arm (ball joint center to bottom) 1degree is only a little more than 1/8th of an inch.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (pyce)*

I'm in the process of creating a similar adjustable control arm with provisions to correct suspension geometry. This will work out well with the camber kit we developed. We're also developing a true linear rate coilover system with user selectable spring rates.
Steve


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_note that they appear to be using the OEM spindles on the touring car, not sure if they are TT, or GTI, but no custom million dollar spindles. I wonder if their "ball joint" has an adapter to move the pivot point down. The car is pretty low. 
http://www.ericksonmotorsports.com

Its actually not all that low, at the laguna seca event it had about 3 fingers worth of gap in front and about 1 to 2 fingers in the rear. But its not crazy low or anything. Every other touring car out there was significantly lower.


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_I'm in the process of creating a similar adjustable control arm with provisions to correct suspension geometry. This will work out well with the camber kit we developed. We're also developing a true linear rate coilover system with user selectable spring rates.
Steve

Sounds awesome.... Will this be targeted to track & hardcore autoX use or something that may be adapted to strret use?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (RichB)*

The target market will be for people that track and autox their car though installation will be straight forward with little to no modifications required to the car. 
It's just like the camber plates we've sold, the market is for serious performance enthusiasts but nothing prevents it from being used on an aggressive street car. 
Steve


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_
Its actually not all that low, at the laguna seca event it had about 3 fingers worth of gap in front and about 1 to 2 fingers in the rear. But its not crazy low or anything. Every other touring car out there was significantly lower.
Yeah, but look at the pics of car , there,s alot of camber dialied into the front emd of that car







Bob.G


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

I dug this out of the VW motorsports catalog. From bildon a while ago. 
Check out their Spring rates. 









180N/mm* 25.4 mm/in / 4.448222 N/lb = 1027 Lbs/inch
And I think 6 degrees negative camber is about what I am looking for.


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Wow, that is allot of negative camber!
For those out there who are like me, still using the SPC camber plates, here are my alignment numbers as of today. The suspension is Neuspeed Sofsports and Koni adjustables shocks - Autotech clubsport adjustable rear sway.








This is the car's first alignment since the suspension was installed last fall... so it has had plenty of time to settle. I probably should have had it done sooner, but the car has seen less than a thousand miles since the install as the car was garaged all winter.


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Why the differnece in camber frmo left to right? Right has ~ 0.3 degrees more.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_Why the differnece in camber frmo left to right? Right has ~ 0.3 degrees more.

0.3° cross-camber is within OEM spec. To even that out, the subframe needs to be adjusted and most shops don't touch that stuff... You could even it out by rotating one of the SPC plates, but then you'd have a larger cross-castor











_Modified by phatvw at 11:48 AM 4-13-2005_


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_Why the differnece in camber frmo left to right? Right has ~ 0.3 degrees more.

Not sure, but it is within the max 0.5 degree factory spec between left and right....so I didn't ask them to loosen up the subframe bolts and try to shift things. Both camber plates are set for max neg camber. One reason could be that the left side (which I asssume is the drivers side) consistently has to deal with my not insubstantial 6'4" 300lbs+ frame so maybe there is a bit more settling going on on the left side of the car than the right which leaves the static camber on the left of the car different.








If the difference really bugs me, I can always tweak the camber plates or shift the subframe.


----------



## H2Sport (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: (RichB)*

H2Sport has introduced their own camber kits. More information here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1962106










_Modified by H2Sport at 12:21 PM 4-28-2005_


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (H2Sport)*

Wow, it looks very much like the prototype Ground Control plates that we developed and tested back in the summer of last year. It was tested on the 2-3 Tuning Jetta that was entered into the European car 1.8T challenge!
Coincidence perhaps?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Man, I've been busy lately. Between my day job, releasing and selling the Ground Control camber plates, developing the coilover system, testing a touring car, working on my own race car, I've somehow managed to come up with this...








A number of people have already asked me about these so I figure I'd make some mention of them. They're still in testing and development but I wanted to let everyone know I wasn't just sitting around doing nothing.








These control arms will be equipped with spherical bearings, and provisions for even greater camber adjustments to compliment the camber plates. I'm also incorporating suspension geometry revision to deal with roll center issues.








-Steve


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Nice! If I gather the concept right - Looks like you're replacing the spindles, too, right? What is the deal with the threaded part on the spindle? Any idea on the price point you're targeting? I'd be happy to test a set for you!








Oh, and just a thought - any way to incorporate an adjustable swaybar mount with that? Autotech has a 2 position bracket, but it only softens the bar.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

This setup will maintain your stock spindle but relocate the ball joint and tie rod ends for better suspension geometry. I haven't determined the price point yet since I still need to figure the total cost of production. I could potentially look for some testers. It'll look something like this when installed onto a car...


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

I'm not looking at making the swaybar attachment location adjustable at this point. However, there maybe a motorsport level swaybar in the furture such as this...
I wonder if you guys are starting to suspect something


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_I'm not looking at making the swaybar attachment location adjustable at this point. However, there maybe a motorsport level swaybar in the furture such as this...
I wonder if you guys are starting to suspect something










Suspect something? No, we couldn't possibly...








BTW This has been added to the ongoing list on the front page


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

mmmmmm....racecar parts http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_






























You have been busy. Off to the dumpster with my ideas


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Right - ball joint, not spindle. Sorry wrong name for what I was thinking. 
Now that swaybar doesn't look like it would clear the axle - ?
Looks good anyway. Should we expect this by end of summer perhaps?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
Now that swaybar doesn't look like it would clear the axle - ?


He's probably got a RWD conversion to avoid that problem


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Nevermind. I recognize those parts: VWMS.
So, Touring Car, eh?







Need a pit crew?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Nevermind. I recognize those parts: VWMS.
So, Touring Car, eh?







Need a pit crew?

Yeah if you come to limerock, let me know, I'm in for some wrenching


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Right - ball joint, not spindle. Sorry wrong name for what I was thinking. 
Now that swaybar doesn't look like it would clear the axle - ?
Looks good anyway. Should we expect this by end of summer perhaps?









The swaybar will be going underneath the axle. Most of these parts are based off the VWR componentry but not quite the same. I'm hoping to release them in limited quantities by summer.
Steve


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Yeah if you come to limerock, let me know, I'm in for some wrenching

Doing a partial season this year and hopefully a full season next year.


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_Now that swaybar doesn't look like it would clear the axle - ?
The Audi TT/A3/VW R32 all have the swaybar going under the axles.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

Some good reading over in the MkIV forum:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2004123


----------



## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

(page 18 owned...)
FYI...
I just installed a set of the Ground Control camber plates, so far so good! First off, Steve (reflexgti) was great to work with--he was there to answer my questions thoroughly and immediately.
Observations/notes:
I was using the SPC camber plates for the past year or so (with 6 months of driving since the car was stored for the winter). I noticed that the passenger side top plate was bent like some others have noted. Plus, it was starting to creak when the suspension moved. That was annoying. Upon disassembly, I noticed that the top plate was bent. Also, while disassembling the driver's side SPC plate, I noticed that the rubber had delaminated from the upper strut bearing mating surface. A section of the rubber was actually jammed between the strut rod and the bearing. On a final note about the SPC plates, prior to removing them, I checked my camber using the SmartCamber gauge. I had originally set them for max negative camber at -1.7 degrees. I checked camber periodically last summer and it seemed to be holding nicely. However, when did my "pre-disassembly" check a couple days ago, the passenger side was o.k. at -1.6 degrees, but the driver's side had lost it setting and was at -0.6 degrees.
So, on to the Ground Control camber plates...
What a well thought out design with excellent manufacturing! I was really impressed with the fit and finish of the parts. It's too bad that most of the part sits below the strut tower. Oh, and the install instructions were very clear with good photos.
The install went very smooth. Everything went by te book. However, I blew it and re-used the OE upper spring hat nut and then realized the Steve supplies 2 new Nylock nuts for this application for additional magin of safety. So, I swapped the nuts yesterday.
Adjustment was simple. Just unload the car at either of the front wheels, loosen the 4 adjustment bolts, and slide the top of the strut to the desired camber setting. I was surprised that the graduations on the top plate (CL, -1.0, -1.8) were actually fairly accurate. I originally set the plates to max negative camber, tightened everything down and cruised around the block to settle the suspension. When I checked the camber, it was at -2.0 degrees for both sides. So I backed them both off a bit to -1.7 degrees. As suspected, I did need to tweak toe a little to achieve neutral. I will be setting the camber close to zero for an upcoming test and tune day at the drag strip, so that will be nice. I will provide more feedback as the summer rolls on.
I was expecting to feel/hear additional NVH, but was pleased with how the ride remained basically unchaged from the SPC camber plates.
-Wayne


_Modified by Wayne92SLC at 8:37 AM 5-27-2005_


----------



## ianacole (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (Wayne92SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wayne92SLC* »_(page 18 owned...)
FYI...
I just installed a set of the Ground Control camber plates, so far so good! First off, Steve (reflexgti) was great to work with--he was there to answer my questions thoroughly and immediately.
Observations/notes:
So, on to the Ground Control camber plates...
What a well thought out design with excellent manufacturing! I was really impressed with the fit and finish of the parts. It's too bad that most of the part sits below the strut tower. Oh, and the install instructions were very clear with good photos.

So good to hear. I'm ordering a set today (as soon as it hits 9am PST). Steve has been a great help for me also!
Ian


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (ianacole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ianacole* »_
So good to hear. I'm ordering a set today (as soon as it hits 9am PST). Steve has been a great help for me also!
Ian

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I can have the kit shipped out tomorrow morning if I receive the paypal today! Just drop me an email.
Thanks Wayne for the post.
-Steve


----------



## ianacole (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I can have the kit shipped out tomorrow morning if I receive the paypal today! Just drop me an email.
Thanks Wayne for the post.
-Steve

I just ordered from the online store. Would it be better if I called and canceled the order and paypal you?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (ianacole)*

You could do it either way but you won't get the discount with the online purchase and it'll probably take some time to ship out with the website order. If you're interested, you're welcome to cancel the online order and let me know.
Thanks,
Steve


_Modified by reflexgti at 10:20 AM 5-27-2005_


----------



## ianacole (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_If you're interested, you're welcome to cancel the online order and let me know.

It's been cancelled...do you want to drop me a line and give me the payment particulars? 720.270.2147...


----------



## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (ianacole)*

these go on my car today. they are the hansj plates from streamline industies. 2 cars in my area running them for autox and they work graet. he uses the best parts and has a great machinist. one car trophied at the wendover tire rack prosolo so they are proving themsleves. 
just im hansj if you are interested.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I can have the kit shipped out tomorrow morning if I receive the paypal today! Just drop me an email.
Thanks Wayne for the post.
-Steve
 bump for Steve for fast shipping and a great product , i was loving mine at limerock this week , funny thing is the STI, r32,s and others where in the grass doing some farming i guess







" GOT GRIP" Bob.G


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (rracerguy717)*








Glad to hear you kept the shiny side up! Maybe the STI and R32 guys were testing out their AWD systems.








Steve


----------



## GLI-Extreme (Jun 12, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*








Thank you


----------



## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

oooohhhhhhh boy camber!!!!
if these are as nice autox as they are on the street i'm set.


----------



## ianacole (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ bump for Steve for fast shipping and a great product.

I couldn't agree more. I just installed Steve's (Ground Control) camber plates this evening. Went for a quick spin through my normal "testing" twisties, and I've only got three words: A MA ZING!!! The turn-in response and handling feedback just floored me. Made my car feel entirely different...much more capable. I would not hesitate to spend the ~$350 on these again...few mods have the immediate "well worth it" pay-off that this one does!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif x a googleplex
Thanks again!!!


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (ianacole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ianacole* »_...Steve's (Ground Control) camber plates this evening...A MA ZING!!! The turn-in response and handling feedback just floored me. Made my car feel entirely different...much more capable. I would not hesitate to spend the ~$350 on these again...few mods have the immediate "well worth it" pay-off that this one does!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif x a googleplex
Thanks again!!!

Just wait till you get an alignment and fix that ridiculous amount of toe in!!!


----------



## ianacole (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_Just wait till you get an alignment and fix that ridiculous amount of toe in!!!

I had an alignment done following the install of my suspension...but I don't know what they set toe in at. Is stock a good amount?


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (ianacole)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ianacole* »_I had an alignment done following the install of my suspension...but I don't know what they set toe in at. Is stock a good amount?

Ohh haha. Umm I'd go a bit more aggressive than stock personally. At least zero out the toe, if not giving the car a bit of toe out >







.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_Ohh haha. Umm I'd go a bit more aggressive than stock personally. At least zero out the toe, if not giving the car a bit of toe out >







.

The factory toe spec for MkIV cars is 0° ±0.08°
Mine is set at the max toe out per spec. Anything more and you tend to get tire wear issue on the street. Most alignment shops set it to zero unless specified otherwise.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

You should be fine with zero toe since you don't want to increase your tire wear.


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*

ReflexGTI,
Just got the shipment notification for the Camber Plates. Thanks!


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Subjective evaluation of NVH*
Did Noise, Vibration and Harshness (NVH) increase with the Ground Control (GC) Camber Plates? Yes. Yes. Yes. Below are my subjective answers. The entire system is contributing to the what I feel. I sometime can't isolate one part is to blame for the results.
I went from my Eibach Pro System (which were riding on the bumpstops) with VWMS upper strut bushings and completely wornout control arm bushings. To Bilstein PSS9 (set on 4 Frt and 5 Rear) with the GC camber plates & Audi TT LCAs. I am used to more NVH already. My tires are Michelin Pilot Sports worn down to the wear bars @ 35 psi.
*Noise:* These GC camber plates are even more noise...mainly in a different frequency. The VWMS bushings took away the higher frequency noise. Furthermore, I now have the Audi TT lower control arms with the solid rubber bushings for the pivots.
There are no bushings in the GC plates. It is tophat (with integrated bearings all of the weight is here), eccentric aluminum w/pillowball inside, aluminum strut mount (fits under the strut towers) and the actual strut tower.
*Vibration:* Lots more vibration.....wow! Through the steering wheel I can feel all types of pavements. I bet I can feel the difference between a nickel and a dime!
*Harshness:* Well, the suspension feels no harsher than my Eibachs on the bumpstops. I would actually go to say that it is less harsh when I hit a sewer grate or (minor) pothole. Suspension travel helps a lot! (I am just about exactly the same height as before).
Would I do it again? Yes. I should have done this about 40k miles ago. The control I have is like a big go-kart. A go-kart with suspension travel.
*Settings*
Before the alignment I had the camber plates set for -1.0* The alignment guys confirmed that the setting was spot on -1.0 for the Left and -0.9 on the Right. The markings are quite good. 
However, for the caster settings I have they had to tweak the Left side a lot. The entire camber plate is turned about 45*. I won't be comfortable adjusting the settings and using the markings for the camber because it is rotated.
*Alignment specs:*
*Camber:* (L) -1.5* (R) -1.4*
*Caster:* (L) 8.1* (R) 8.2* (I asked for Audi TT caster)
*Toe:* 0*
*Other*
The overall height of the stack above the tophat is shorter than the rubber bushings. Therefore, one gains a bit of suspension travel (if you have height adjustable suspension).
Comments on the Ground Control Camber Plates: The alignment guys do a lot of high-end cars and race-cars. They have not seen this level of camber plate on a VW before. They thought the price was great! I agree!


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Are you guys "noticing" the toe changes when adjusting your plates? 
For instance; I had my car alinged with camber set at 1.3 for daily driving. With the combo of lca extenders/spc plates, they will yield -2.7 for autocross. When I made the adjustment to this camber while on the rack; ~1/8" toe-in resulted on each side. Is this toe-in negating any performance gain from the extra camber?
Also, has anybody tried toe plates for erasing (adjusting) this possible issue? Just curious...........


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Toe changes on pretty much all cars when camber is adjusted. I can notice 1/8" toe on my car and the car feels better without toe in.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Toe changes on pretty much all cars when camber is adjusted. I can notice 1/8" toe on my car and the car feels better without toe in.

That 1/8" of toe in isn't erasing all the grip gained from the negative camber adjusment, right? 
With the SPC plates; does the combo of the castor and camber change (simantaneously) have any affect on the amount toe change *vs* GC plates where is castor is not altered with camber adjustment?


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Caster changes don't affect toe setting as much as camber. You will still experience the same effect with our plates when you change the camber settings. 
The toe in will not erase the gained grip from the negative camber. However, it will effect turn in to a certain degree. 
A suggestion: You can set your street setting to 1/16" toe out so when you go to the track and change camber, your car will now only be at 1/16" toe in. This should be insignificant enough to not notice.
Steve


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## Kanoa9321 (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Have a SPC camber kit for sale if anyone is intrested http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2094131


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

Anybody having problems with SPC camber plates slipping and losing your alignment?
It seems that after my last 2 track days, I've had to get an alignment because the toe has gone off. I'm not really sure if its the SPC plates or something else. During each of these track sessions, I have spun out and gone off road, so that may be contributed.
Just want to get some comments from folks that are using these on the track.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

I've had no alingment problems with spc product. I have not done any trackdays, just auto-x.

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_During each of these track sessions, I have spun out and gone off road, so that may be contributed.


Spinouts








I am guessing front-end grip is not an issue in your case. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

btw Audi TT control arms on sale for $75 each:
http://www.worldimpex.com/item...28294
http://www.worldimpex.com/item...81140
Bushings too:
http://www.worldimpex.com/item...81148


_Modified by phatvw at 4:32 PM 9-16-2005_


----------



## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_btw Audi TT control arms on sale for $75 each:
http://www.worldimpex.com/item...28294























But...can I still run my golf fsb? Or do I need anything else?


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (traffic)*

We will need to drill/tap for the swaybar provisions. If it does not have the 'nubs' then we will need to get a 3/8" spacer. 
For a budget setup, I would not suggest the control arms just the bushings. I got them because I wanted some stronger stuff with the bushings and larger ball joints. Looking at this in the long run.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_I've had no alingment problems with spc product. I have not done any trackdays, just auto-x.


I took apart my front suspension the other day with eggrollers help (installed new Shine front springs). I think one camber plate did slip, but only because my alignment shop didn't tighten the inner nut enough. Getting another alignment next week and will post camber numbers...
All these alignments are killing my mod budget, so I'm gonna do the lifetime alignment at Firestone/Mastercare for $200.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
All these alignments are killing my mod budget, so I'm gonna do the lifetime alignment at Firestone/Mastercare for $200.


Have you given toe plates a thought? I'm liking mine


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (redwe-in-wi)*

To do alignments at home? Yeah I was thinking about getting those. How accurate can you get?


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_To do alignments at home? Yeah I was thinking about getting those. How accurate can you get?

Well since the tapes have 1/16" increments; I would say no worse than a 1/16" of total (cross?) toe. I see no wear with the -2.6 camber and toe measured less than 1/16 total. This is on re750's.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

Update GC vs SPC comparison thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2546000


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_ lca extenders

...where do you get these extenders?
-thanks


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_
...where do you get these extenders?
-thanks

I would like to help you on that; but it has been 12 months since I bought them. My memory fails to recall where I purchased them. Search for them. I believe I bought them from the retailer in the "original thread" on lca extenders. $130?
EDIT
Just checked page 1
lca extenders linkhttp://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1993095
Contact: Lightening Motorsports (800) 478-0952 for best pricing



_Modified by redwe-in-wi at 8:44 AM 7-3-2006_


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## NOok (Mar 31, 2003)

The SPC link incorrectly points to my old ebay store category for the SPC items. The correct link is now http://www.prosuspension.com/i...fb517


----------



## puebla (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (GLI-Extreme)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLI-Extreme* »_ Thank you...


----------



## oj1480 (Jun 6, 2006)

i want to know how u install these?
do u need to drill holes or something like that?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (oj1480)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oj1480* »_i want to know how u install these?
do u need to drill holes or something like that?









Which product are you talking about? The front page has install tips listed for most of the available products. If something is specifically missing that you need to make a decision, I''m sure the google search tool will help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## .7065 (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

The 2Bennett Revolution Camber plates are for the TT and fit the Golf and GTI 1999-2005 It replaces the upperstrut mount completely and includes the spring purch upper there is no drilling required. I just thought I would correct that info.
Mark at 2B


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (xspeedracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xspeedracer* »_The 2Bennett Revolution Camber plates are for the TT and fit the Golf and GTI 1999-2005 It replaces the upperstrut mount completely and includes the spring purch upper there is no drilling required. I just thought I would correct that info.
Mark at 2B

Updated. Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NYC20AE (Jul 2, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

_Modified by NYC20AE at 4:02 PM 7-18-2007_


----------



## JettaMang (May 10, 2005)

Ok so what i've gathered from the forums so far is that my stock mkiv starts at about -0.5 camber f&r.
considering dropping my car 1.5" anyone know how i could find out how much more Negative camber that would add to ride?
reading thru this post it seems like all these plates add more negative camber, but i need to add positive to get back to ~0.5 and reduce tire wear, mirite?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (JettaMang)*

Lowering will not change camber very much at all on a VW. Its not like a Honda. Do your lowering and then get an alignment to re-set the toe.


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Nov 26, 2006)

New item for "Control Arm Mods"
http://www.modshack.info/defcon.htm


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (MCPaudiTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MCPaudiTT* »_New item for "Control Arm Mods"
http://www.modshack.info/defcon.htm


Covered here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2300853


----------



## Gberg888GLI (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

need to read this... but dont have the time now...
too watched topics it goes!


----------



## porn8069 (Feb 12, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (Gberg888GLI)*

FWIW h2sport mkIV sport spindles have been back ordered for a while. last time i talked to them estimated delivery date is mid april.


----------



## dococ (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (porn8069)*

As of today - it's now late May.
Apparently they changed foundries.


----------



## vdubtim (Jan 23, 2008)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate list (Surfkahakai)*

nice


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## porn8069 (Feb 12, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (dococ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dococ* »_As of today - it's now late May.
Apparently they changed foundries.

great, yet another change. everytime time i call its another 1/2 month later than the time before. i've been calling since december


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## dococ (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (porn8069)*

I know the feeling.
I've been dying to put my cup kit on but have held off so I can do the whole dang thing in one shot.


----------



## factoryfast (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

This thread is great but after going over the options I need some help to point me in the right direction. 
First I have a shock/spring setup on my R32. Bilstien Sports with Patec Race Springs. 
I have blown out 7 strut bearings over the past couple years and im sick of popping the hood and seeing one shock higher than the other. I need a setup that eliminates these OEM strut bearings and replaces them with a more heavy duty unit. 
I could care less about the camber/caster correction or my ride quality or odd noises. My car alrerady makes lots of odd noises during proper operation and rides like a go-cart. I just want to eliminate these bearings and the cost of replacing them with something thats going to hold up. I hate that clunk noise, you know somethings wrong...
Thanks Guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by factoryfast at 8:57 PM 5-19-2008_


_Modified by factoryfast at 8:59 PM 5-19-2008_


----------



## porn8069 (Feb 12, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (factoryfast)*

who is installing the suspension pieces and how much torque are they applying to the nut the holds the bearing in place? if you over torque that nut, it is very easy to do, you will crack the plastic housing of the strut bearing...


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## factoryfast (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (porn8069)*


_Quote, originally posted by *porn8069* »_who is installing the suspension pieces and how much torque are they applying to the nut the holds the bearing in place? if you over torque that nut, it is very easy to do, you will crack the plastic housing of the strut bearing...

Funny you mention this because i never had an issue up until after I did the Stage IV. Then again, maybe i wasnt paying enough attention...
Ive had multiple mechanics work on it so theres no one tech to single out. A good friend told me the same thing your telling me recently so ill let him do my last two bearings which are in the glovebox and ill go from there. Do you have a recomendation as far as which plate to go with should proper torque opn the stock bearings not be the issue?


----------



## factoryfast (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (factoryfast)*

anyone?


----------



## porn8069 (Feb 12, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (factoryfast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *factoryfast* »_ Do you have a recomendation as far as which plate to go with should proper torque opn the stock bearings not be the issue?

i'm not really sure what you are asking here but i run the GC camber plates purchased from reflexgti. they do not run OEM bearings and come with all the hardware you need. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## They_Call_Me_Bob (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (porn8069)*

From the dead.
So in the end does this camber plate reduce the height of the overall bearing assembly, resulting in an effective lowering of the car? If so, how much we talking here?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (They_Call_Me_Bob)*

Our GC drop in camber plate does reduce the overall height due to a shorter stack height. For cars with coilover or height adjustable suspensions, it typically allows for greater shock compression travel. 
Steve


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*

x-post to Speed Arena classifieds for one set of mine I made; have to pay multiple hockey league fees soon!!
http://forums.speedarena.com/z...d=311


----------



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Our GC drop in camber plate does reduce the overall height due to a shorter stack height. For cars with coilover or height adjustable suspensions, it typically allows for greater shock compression travel. 
Steve

I love the GC plates for this. I no longer bottom out and I have more range as well.
btw, you have PM.


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## CapeGLS (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Our GC drop in camber plate does reduce the overall height due to a shorter stack height. For cars with coilover or height adjustable suspensions, it typically allows for greater shock compression travel. 
Steve


I love my gc plates and I can't say enough about Steve. He has been able to answer any questions that I have had.








-1.8


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## ink n bones (Jan 4, 2009)

what size are koni coilovers springs so i can get gc plates top hats rt


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (CapeGLS)*

1.8* is it? Better then stock but I have seen more


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (hans j)*

It's 1.8 degrees over stock settings. Absolute values are impossible due to variations in stock camber values and ride height also varies camber. 
Steve


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## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (reflexgti)*

Camber is awesome...


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## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (phatvw)*

Ground Control is controlling my camber now!
















These are wonderful. NVH isn't increased to an intolerable point. Steering through windy turns is a joy in my car now. Set to -1.3*.


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## kgw (May 1, 2008)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (jink)*

Jink,
Do you have any noise from these going over sharp bumps? I hear the K-macs clunk on bumps. The GC don't appear to have any bushings though, so perhaps they don't?


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## CapeGLS (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (kgw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kgw* »_Jink,
Do you have any noise from these going over sharp bumps? I hear the K-macs clunk on bumps. The GC don't appear to have any bushings though, so perhaps they don't?

I don't have any noise.


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## kgw (May 1, 2008)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (CapeGLS)*

I looked at my top perches in my 2006 A3: different! Any camber plates out that fit the A3?


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## CapeGLS (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (kgw)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4394335 (Rear MK4 Camber Shims)


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## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (kgw)*

Sorry I didn't notice this thread until now.

_Quote, originally posted by *kgw* »_Jink,
Do you have any noise from these going over sharp bumps? I hear the K-macs clunk on bumps. The GC don't appear to have any bushings though, so perhaps they don't?

I do have noise going over sharp bumps. I have a clunking noise on very sharp bumps/dips. The noise on my driver side is worse. I do not think the noise is from the camber plates, but I am having a difficult time determining where the noise is originating. Once I replace LCAs and more bushings I can give you a better estimation.


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## AE2058 (Dec 31, 2003)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (CapeGLS)*

just installed and needing a alignment ASAP


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## MI_canuck (Dec 21, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (jink)*

Have you noticed increase in harshness? ie. reduced ride quality?
i'm just wondering if they promote extra stress in the strut towers, being that there is (seeminghly) no rubber isolation compared to stock...


_Quote, originally posted by *jink* »_Ground Control is controlling my camber now!
















These are wonderful. NVH isn't increased to an intolerable point. Steering through windy turns is a joy in my car now. Set to -1.3*.


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## gehr (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (MI_canuck)*

No and no!


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## CapeGLS (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Camber plate & drop spindle list (gehr)*

With my airride on a low driving psi, there is a harshness to them. But it is not unbearable.


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## 6g72 (Apr 28, 2009)

I installed a set of the Ground Control jammers, and, they are very good. Alignment shop verified the markings on the top plate to be very close. Left was spot on, and right, off by -0.2. Plates set at -1.2.
Toe was way off so dont delay the alignment afterward.


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## cpsvr6 (Jun 5, 2009)

okay so lately i have noticed some excess tire wear on my left front tire. the inner is wear much much more then the rest of the tire.. its only the left side. anyone think of anyway to adjust it with out purchasing something to put on my car? just a daily driver.. ball joint need to be replaced? strut? lower control arm? control arm and ball joint?? what can i do!?


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (cpsvr6)*

The tire wear is due to several possible issues which you should have checked. It is typically due to worn lower control arm bushings, or bent components so I would look there first.
Steve


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## dancar420 (May 11, 2008)

opcorn:


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## mista dubba dubba (Jul 4, 2001)

I'm looking at a used set of GC plates that was fitted to Bilstein PSS9's. Will those fit my v-maxx coilovers? (flame suit on  Thx


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## Turkbo (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey Steve,

Do you still sell these GC Camber Kits?

Please let me know.

Pm'ed.


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## drivingman (Nov 17, 2009)

phatvw said:


> http://www.k-mac.com.au/makes/volks.htm
> # http://www.shox.com/appguide/shoxshop/
> # http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1138793
> # $289-$465/pair
> ...


 Seeing as there's been more or less recent activity on this thread, let's just see if we can update this information. 

The K-Mac kit has been seriously updated for the Mk IV. Mind you, there was NEVER a time when the kit didn't offer separate caster and camber adjustment, they are simply built in features of the K-Mac kits. 

IT DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY DRILLING! 

They require NO modification for the hood support bracket on the strut tower either. 

The one thing that was in question for a time was the suspension travel they allowed, but this was rectified a long time ago and they now have as much as or more travel than the original strut tops. They also have two bearings for durability, the original plus a spherical bearing. 

They do not alter ride height and come with spring caps for standard and coilover springs. 

As far as I've seen, the K-Mac kit provides more adjustment potential than any other kit, while also allowing camber and caster to be adjusted separately. 

Delivery time is under a week world wide. K-Mac say two or three days, but sometimes it's four or five.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

Sorry but I don't think I received your PM. Feel free to contact me again.

Steve


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## lmcgee (Dec 25, 2013)

Is this for real? 





phatvw said:


> Updates:<br>plates can be re-drilled and/or rotated prior to install to achieve different caster/camber changes according to *Dick Shine*<br><p><br>


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

lmcgee said:


> Is this for real?


It probably was. Good luck finding SRS parts nowadays.


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## Dylan8 (Jul 27, 2010)

Anyone have suggestions on what to use with bagyards/HP drivetech fronts without raising the car?


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