# Misfires on a K04+ FSI - 5500RPM w/ WOT



## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

***SOLVED** Misfires on a K04+ FSI - 5500RPM w/ WOT*

***SOLVED***

Problem was caused by faulty software from APR.

Installed GIAC software and have not experienced ANY misfires since.

***SOLVED***

I've got an APR K04 with a few extra upgrades, and whenever I'm at WOT I get misfires at 5,500 RPM. I've verified this on and off a Dyno.

I've read several threads on this subject, and most end with lots of great suggestions and no real follow up or conclusion. I'd like to start a new thread for those of us still having this issue, and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this.

Car: 2008 Audi TT Coupe with 50,000 KM
Engine: 2.0T FSI (BPY)
Software: APR K04 testpipe & Unitronic STG3 DSG

Upgrades:


APR K04, APR HP Fuel Pump, S3 Injectors
H2Sport Cam follower fix
RS4 Fuel pressure regulator valve (079 130 757)
APR Intercooler
Labonte Motorsports MAF Water/Meth (40/60) (Injected just prior to intake manifold)
Neuspeed K04 hiflow air intake
AWE Turbo Back exhaust w/ metal 200 cat
Peloquin Differential
Various stiffeners, etc.


Most of my work has been done at H2Sport, even if I had to supply some of the parts.

A little background:

This car was purchased early this year with the intentions of turning it into a track car. We have been doing the upgrades in steps, with the hopes of ironing out any bugs or problems that arise. As you can see from the above list we were almost finished with the powertrain upgrades when we hit this problem. I've been working with the folks at H2Sport over the last few months trying to identify the cause of this problem. The last upgrade performed was the exhaust, and we're fairly certain the misfires were NOT happening prior to the installation of the new exhaust.

Extensive logging has been done by both myself and H2Sport. We have verified that during misfires Boost is good (ie: actual 2410 vs. specified 2450). I can't remember all the remaining tests done, but it's been hours and hours of logging and testing and we can't find anything that stands out.


Things already tried:


Replace coilpacks
Replace and gap sparkplugs (OEM)
Replaced the in tank fuel pump to latest revision
Remove the intake manifold and clean the valves (WM really does do a great job keeping these clean!)
Check fuel rail pressure (Always hits 130bar when misfiring, upgraded to S4 valve. Now logging 136bar - still misfires)
Enabled / Disabled Water Meth. Tried 100, 93 and 91 APR modes. Always misfires.
Set the software to "Stock" - NO MISFIRES
Cursing at it


Moving forward, I'm having the Air intake modified and a custom airbox made to hook up to the factory air source in the grill. The original need for this was to stop the intake from drawing in heat from the engine compartment. However, it has been suggested the intake itself may be the problem as the APR software does not know how to deal with such a high flow rate and this may have been exacerbated by the introduction of the AWE exhaust. So, I'm hoping the added restriction of the airbox and limiting it to the factory air source may help? If, after installing the new airbox, I still have the misfires I will switch back to the factory intake (with a drop in K&N) and see if that helps. I do get MAF codes, on rare occasions, however only at track speeds and WOT.

The last suggestion i've been given is my exhaust springs are too soft. If everything else fails I will move to the final planned step on the engine and replace the valves and springs.

If you are having this problem aswell, please post up everything you've done to your car and everything you have tried to fix it.

Thanks for reading this long, drawn out post! I'm looking forward to hearing any new suggestions!


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

What do your fuel trims look like?


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

donjuan1jr said:


> What do your fuel trims look like?


I assume you're looking for groups 31 & 32?

During the misfires, Lambda Current is 0.74 vs Lambda Specified at 0.76. However, immediately before and after (~1 second) the Current is 1.99 vs Specified at 0.95.

During the entire test the Lamda Idle Adaptation is -2.3, and the Lamda Partial Adaptation is 4.7


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

i get these but only in 3rd gear


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

One Bad MKV said:


> i get these but only in 3rd gear


They're most notable in 3rd gear and up for me too. I did notice the Fuel pressure regulator valve made a significant difference on the misfires.. it reduced them from 20+ when passing through 5500rpm, to maybe 1 - 3 when shifting gears into or near the 5500rpm range.

I'm getting closer to solving this, but any misfires are undesireable on a track car.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

Keep me updated i was thinking of swtiching tunes but i really like apr...i was think uni i have yet to here any one have this problem with all the othere tuner might just be that apr wants us to use just there products(not likley)


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## Shazsta (Mar 9, 2006)

I would suggest to try the factory air box before you modify your intake. Then make sure your coilpacks are all ok.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Shazsta said:


> I would suggest to try the factory air box before you modify your intake. Then make sure your coilpacks are all ok.


We eliminated the coilpacks, and I actually put in a new set anyway just to be sure.

As for the airbox, I'm exploring another option.. Hopefully I'll have a solution in the coming weeks


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## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

Aoshi said:


> We eliminated the coilpacks, and I actually put in a new set anyway just to be sure.
> 
> As for the airbox, I'm exploring another option.. Hopefully I'll have a solution in the coming weeks


If you are using apr tune, id say stick with oem air box....
I ran bsh, forge twin take but both never liked the apr tune vice versa...
I'm back to carbonio.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

mkim said:


> If you are using apr tune, id say stick with oem air box....
> I ran bsh, forge twin take but both never liked the apr tune vice versa...
> I'm back to carbonio.


This is essentially what I've heard, though no one is sure if it's the air intake or the exhaust (or both) that the APR software doesn't like.

Either way, I'm not going backwards with this car. APR doesn't make an exhaust OR an intake solution for this vehicle, so I'm forced to look elsewhere.. If I need to get down to APR for a custom tune, or look to one of the others then so be it I guess.... Just seems like a bunch of nonsense to me, since I'm clearly not the only person with this issue.. seems there are lots of K04 folks with these problems.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

indeedthere is alot of people with this issue i dont have there exhast either but i dontthink that would cause the intake might cas of the maf.....might try and make my own intake maybe cut a pice of the stock airbox and since i have the tools to make pipes here at work might try and make my own later on dont care how it looks as long asitworks....if u find a fix please post up


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

So what is going on with your injectors? Have you checked your compression? Also, are you using platinum or iridium plugs? Lastly, are your plugs a '7' or '8' heat range?

The fun in all of this is there is lots to look at regarding misfires.
-Injectors (unfortunately, unless removed and tested, you have to replace to see if this is the cause)
-Coils
-Compression
-Plugs getting too hot causing predetonation (usually happens when you run hot with high boost for long periods) 
-Platinum for some reason is producing less issues
-intake valve carbon build-up (water/meth inj. is said to help)

If I ever had misfires I would still be in the same boat figuring it out as to the cause every time. Luckily I don't.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

ROH ECHT said:


> So what is going on with your injectors? Have you checked your compression? Also, are you using platinum or iridium plugs? Lastly, are your plugs a '7' or '8' heat range?
> 
> The fun in all of this is there is lots to look at regarding misfires.
> -Injectors (unfortunately, unless removed and tested, you have to replace to see if this is the cause)
> ...


I doubt it's the injectors, only because the problem is spread across all 4 cylinders and only at WOT... For the same reason we can pretty much eliminate the coil packs and plugs, though I swapped those out anyway just to be sure.

I'm running stock plugs on this setup so far, but i'm SURE the plugs aren't over heating since it happens almost every time I'm at WOT and passing through 5500... if it were the plugs over heating I should be experiencing this after long pulls, and all throughout the RPM range until they cool off.

We've checked compression in the past, and it wasn't an issue - though I can post up numbers if anyone is interested.

Let me get the new intake installed, and pull out the PCV and make sure it's clean and working. I'll post up the results when I'm done.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Then it may be time to clean the intake valves.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

ROH ECHT said:


> Then it may be time to clean the intake valves.


The intake valves aren't just clean, they're "Holy crap, I can see metal!" clean. I actually already listed this in my first post under "Things already tried".


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

How did you get an APR hpfp to work with the H2sport's roller hpfp? 
And,
Why are you running AWE's 2.5" T/B with APR's remap that's written for a 3" T/B?


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

ROH ECHT said:


> How did you get an APR hpfp to work with the H2sport's roller hpfp?
> And,
> Why are you running AWE's 2.5" T/B with APR's remap that's written for a 3" T/B?



Pretty much everything on my car has been installed by H2Sport in Georgetown, Ontario... So if you want to know the specifics of the APR HPFP and their Cam follower fix, you would have to contact them directly because I'm just not sure what you're asking?

As for the exhaust, APR doesn't offer a solution for my car so I went with AWE - Which, for the record, I think is an absolutely AMAZING upgrade.

Finally, the I went with the testpipe software because both H2Sport and APR suggested I move to it. However, I thought it was suspicious that the misfires started when I upgraded the exhaust so I had H2Sport switch me back to the regular K04 software and it made no difference on the misfires.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

the MAF issue isnt with the intake itself, its with how the MAF cannot get the same quality of readings in that circular tube, as opposed to the baffled and oval OEM tube.

You could try an air straightener.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

how would cutting up the stock air box where the maf is at and some how adapt it to there or make our own intake using the stock housing and just fab our own parts has anyone tried it???


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

Yes, Im sure someone has tried it.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

Krieger said:


> Yes, Im sure someone has tried it.


pretty sure someone has but i have not been able to find results...that lue32 or somthing like that did his own intake with the tsi intake and says it worked really well for him


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

I was confused about their roller fix. I believed that you couldn't just throw any pump on there. That it actually needed to be rebuilt with their own stuff due to the roller. So yeah, I'll check with them. Anyhow;

Awe's product is nice. I 'm curious what happens running an APR K04 remap, written for a 3" DP, reacts to a 2.5" DP? 

Maybe you could get a trial run with a giac K04 remap through AWE. GIAC's is written for a 2.5 DP, might be it?


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

ROH ECHT said:


> I was confused about their roller fix. I believed that you couldn't just throw any pump on there. That it actually needed to be rebuilt with their own stuff due to the roller. So yeah, I'll check with them. Anyhow;
> 
> Awe's product is nice. I 'm curious what happens running an APR K04 remap, written for a 3" DP, reacts to a 2.5" DP?
> 
> Maybe you could get a trial run with a giac K04 remap through AWE. GIAC's is written for a 2.5 DP, might be it?


if it was that simple of getting a trila re amp i would try and if it works for me just ike it did for u or some where near that i would switch......Apr offres a trial would be nic if GIAC would do it also hell other companies to..I have been looking into uni also that would be sweet a trial


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Ok, update time;

We checked the PCV valve and it was revision "E". So we decided to swap it out for the latest revision - which beleive it or not is "P".... 16 revisions of this thing, seriously VAG?? You're running out of letters! I haven't had a chance to push the car and see if the misfires are gone, but I'll post up when I have time and the weather permits. From the brief highway run I did bringing the car back yesterday, it's POSSIBLE the problems are now resolved as I didn't experience any.

As for the air intake, I ordered the AWE "CCB" cold air intake for the FSI TT.. The only catch to this is there's no place to attach the DV from my K04, so H2Sport is going to weld one on. We were trying out all sorts of different options with the intake over the past few months and modifying the AWE product seems to be the best solution.

As for taking new software out for a trial - Unitronic offers a 30 day money back if you're unsatisfied... So yes you have to put up a few bucks, but you'll get a full refund if it's not what you want. I'm really not sure what GIAC's policy is, but I will definately explore that option if we can't resolve this.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

I have euro jet pcv valve just changed for prevention might just put it back on to see what it does....does urs do it all the time at wot or at times it works like a charm


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

One Bad MKV said:


> I have euro jet pcv valve just changed for prevention might just put it back on to see what it does....does urs do it all the time at wot or at times it works like a charm


Prior to the RS4 pressure valve, it was constant. Everytime the engine was at 5,500 RPM at WOT it would misfire. Since the RS4 valve was installed the problems occur intermittantly, and only when *downshifting* into the 5,500 RPM range (ie: 5th gear @ 2,200 RPM suddenly shift to 3rd and Wide Open Throttle). Even then, it's only 1 - 3 misfires (one per cylinder)...

I'm really, really hopeful the PCV valve was the final problem... But the weather here is degrading fast, so I doubt i'll have a chance to test the car out more until April.. :/

So, what everyone should take out of this experience so far: 
The K04 turbo requires more fuel than the S3 injectors can deliver at 130bar of pressure. I strongly recommend EVERYONE upgrading to a K04 turbo spend the extra $80 and install the RS4 fuel pressure valve which will allow the pressure to rise up to 136bar, which *seems* to be sufficient. This doesn't appear to be a problem for people on Stage III most likely because those kits come with custom injectors that should have no problem delivering sufficient fuel within the 130bar limitations of the original valve.

Installation of the valve is very easy (and thus cheap) if done during the entire K04 installation since the intake manifold will already be removed.

I'll update this thread further when the new air intake is installed. Hopefully with some pics!


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Aoshi said:


> Ok, update time;
> The only catch to this is there's no place to attach the DV from my K04, so H2Sport is going to weld one on.


I have the BSH stage 1 pcv, maybe that's another reason I don't have misfires.

Wouldn't AWE's DV relocate hose work? http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/vw-1/mk5-g-j-2006/2-0t/awe-20t-dvr.html Or not, due to lack of sound pipe?

Yes, it would be nice if all had a trial remap.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

ROH ECHT said:


> I have the BSH stage 1 pcv, maybe that's another reason I don't have misfires.
> 
> Wouldn't AWE's DV relocate hose work? http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/vw-1/mk5-g-j-2006/2-0t/awe-20t-dvr.html Or not, due to lack of sound pipe?
> 
> Yes, it would be nice if all had a trial remap.


It's possible that relocate would work, but it's not listed for my vehicle - so i'm not sure if there's enough clearance... Might be worth a call to AWE. Thanks for pointing it out!


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Good Luck


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

*Update time!*

I received the AWE CCB intake a few weeks back and welded on a piece to attach my DV valve.. For those of you that are curious, I couldn't get a straight answer if the AWE DV relocate for the MKV would fit the TT. It's a pretty tight area and I didn't want to waste my time trying to make it fit.

Anyway, the intake is installed and looks great. :thumbup: to AWE for putting out some solid products. They take their sweet ass time getting your order out, but it's definately a great piece.

Being winter, I haven't had much time to get this car out but we finally have a nice, sunny, dry day above freezing here today so I dusted off the car and took it out for a few runs.

Good news:
I was unable to produce any MAF errors with this intake - always a good sign! 
The turbo is a lot quieter, not a plus to everyone, I know. 
Intake temps at idle look a whole lot better.

But unfortunately, this did not solve the misfire issues. I'm still producing several misfires around 5,500 RPM.

However, with all this down time i decided to check out ETKA and see which exhaust springs went into my car.. and found something very interesting.. My VIN falls right in the middle of a production changeover, a small period over a few weeks where they switched the exhaust springs, then switched again... 3 different sets of springs were used over a 3 month production period.. Well this raises some red flags and might explain why some people have this problem, while others don't.

So, I've already ordered and received the Ferrea valve kit. I'm going to replace all 16 valve springs and we'll see if that solves the problem... I don't know when I'll get a chance to do this, but I'll post up my results when it's done and I've had a chance to test the car.

I know someone here is going to point out I should port and polish the head while it's off and switch up to the larger valves. I totally agree and if I wasn't having any problems with the car I would've done this at the same time. But since we're trying to eliminate a problem I didn't want to introduce any new variables.


OH, FYI - I am selling my Neuspeed P-Flo intake (It's for a K04 with a DV relocate, but you can cover it up if you don't need it). I will be selling it as is with all the parts and heat shield - only a few months old for $100 cash 'n carry. I will not ship it. So if you're in the Toronto area and are interested just send me off a PM.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

still very intrested see some results


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## 805 (May 11, 2004)

One Bad MKV said:


> how would cutting up the stock air box where the maf is at and some how adapt it to there or make our own intake using the stock housing and just fab our own parts has anyone tried it???


Its been done by a few
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4448192-Hybrid-OEM-CAI-solution


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi,

What cylinders are misfiring on your TT, and what's the average misfire count seen?

To confirm, the misfiring only occurs under WOT, ~5500rpms, but....
...does the amount of load matter? Ie do you only experience the misfires under heavy load(ie up a steep hill)?
...do you have to stab the throttle and achieve throttle kick-down for the misfires to happen? In other words, if you gently roll into the throttle, does it not misfire?

Out of curiosity, have you swapped in a different brand HPFP, or even the stock HPFP, to see if the misfires are still present?

PS--interesting how misfires don't occur with the stock software loaded.


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> As for taking new software out for a trial - Unitronic offers a 30 day money back if you're unsatisfied... So yes you have to put up a few bucks, but you'll get a full refund if it's not what you want. I'm really not sure what GIAC's policy is, but I will definately explore that option if we can't resolve this.


Unfortunately GIAC doesn't offer any trials, but there is a 30day money back guarantee if you're not fully satisfied(and if you aren't for some reason, believe me, they'll go to great lengths to insure satisfaction).


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

jeremy_matrix said:


> Aoshi,
> 
> What cylinders are misfiring on your TT, and what's the average misfire count seen?
> 
> ...


Misfires happen across all four cylinders, usually 1 - 5 per cylinder.

Load doesn't appear to have much of an impact. Though most of the testing we've done has been on flat roads or on the track straights.

Can't be the HPFP; the fuel logs look great.. Changed out the LPFP because we were having some issues with the valve holding pressure after the car was shut off.

As for kickdowns on the shift - I'm actually still able to reproduce these on the Dyno staying in 3rd gear.. Shows up as a nice loss of power at exactly 5,500 RPM.. 

Anyway, I'm really feeling confident about the exhaust springs. Last time I had the car on the dyno I stood behind it while it was being run and I could clearly hear the POP POP POP out the tail pipe - so the valves _must_ be open.. I mean, at this point - wtf else could it be right? 

Also, there is a TSB for the TTS with the 2.0T and a factory K04 for soft exhaust springs, which is why I started looking at them. Makes sense the factory K03 cars would have springs at least as soft right?


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> Misfires happen across all four cylinders, usually 1 - 5 per cylinder.
> 
> Load doesn't appear to have much of an impact. Though most of the testing we've done has been on flat roads or on the track straights.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.
Different scenario than we have here with an '07 A3 2.0T.

Are you aware of the hydraulic lifter "hole" issue that the '06's had, where the lifters would fail to pump up due to being clogged with carbon/crud, and could cause misfires? Since you have an '08 TT, this shouldn't be your cause nor the cause of this '07, but it's interesting banter regardless.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

*No luck*

Ok, springs are installed.

I confirmed with the dealership that my VIN number shows my car should have the problematic valve springs (These springs will have a yellow and white paint marking). Well, after taking the engine apart and pulling my springs out, it turns out I have the “good” springs (blue & white paint). 

Ok, well we’ve already got the ferrea kit and the engine is apart – may as well change them out.
Once finished, we took the car out for some hard runs… no luck… the car is still misfiring.

One way I’m always able to reproduce this; Take the car calmly to 60kmph in DRIVE (this is the point the car shifts into 6th gear) and suddenly hammer the throttle (WOT). The car will shift down to 2nd gear around 4,800 RPM and when it climbs into 5,500 RPM range will misfire. Again, only 1 – 2 times per cylinder. The same can be reproduced at 100kmph and having the car shift down to 3rd. The problem _now_ only appears when the car is in automatic. (This has been the case since I added the RS4 fuel valve)

Interesting enough, if I put the car into manual and shift to 3rd, start at 2,000RPM and hold the gas all the way to 7,000 RPM I do NOT get ANY misfires. Of course, I was getting misfires previously when doing this on the dyno – but that was prior to the RS4 fuel valve.

So after eliminating the valve springs, it seems my only option is to start uninstalling the upgrades I did just prior to this issue. In a nut shell, this is the intake, exhaust and DSG software.

I’m going to start with the DSG software because this problem is occurring only when in drive… I’m going to have the unitronic dealer reflash the DSG on Monday with my original software… I’ll let you know how that goes!


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> Ok, springs are installed.
> 
> I confirmed with the dealership that my VIN number shows my car should have the problematic valve springs (These springs will have a yellow and white paint marking). Well, after taking the engine apart and pulling my springs out, it turns out I have the “good” springs (blue & white paint).
> 
> ...


WOW, what a fiasco! I am very sorry to hear. 
Lots of money for Ferrea springs(the best) installed.

Can you reiterate after which component installation that these cyl1-4 misfires (count of only 1-2) started?


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

jeremy_matrix said:


> WOW, what a fiasco! I am very sorry to hear.
> Lots of money for Ferrea springs(the best) installed.
> 
> Can you reiterate after which component installation that these cyl1-4 misfires (count of only 1-2) started?


I upgraded the Air Intake and exhaust at the same time, and the DSG software later in the week. I didn't have a chance to really do anything with the car immediately after these upgrades, but after a few weeks I stopped at the dyno to get a feel for the new power curve. It was at the dyno we first identified the issue - and I confirmed it the following week on the track.

Prior to the RS4 valve, the car would suffer 10 - 20 misfires per cylinder at 5,500 RPM. After the valve we've reduced it to 1 - 2, only under the conditions I outlined above.


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> I upgraded the Air Intake and exhaust at the same time, and the DSG software later in the week. I didn't have a chance to really do anything with the car immediately after these upgrades, but after a few weeks I stopped at the dyno to get a feel for the new power curve. It was at the dyno we first identified the issue - and I confirmed it the following week on the track.
> 
> Prior to the RS4 valve, the car would suffer 10 - 20 misfires per cylinder at 5,500 RPM. After the valve we've reduced it to 1 - 2, only under the conditions I outlined above.


Ok, got it, thanks.

The largest possible culprit I've seen from the K04-2.0T-misfire research is the intake and/or lack of laminar screen/flow straightener;
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-with-all-this-aftermarket-CAI-air-turbulence

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4348602-air-straightener-for-Evoms-intake-on-k04-s3-kit


HTH


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Nice dry, sunny sunday here today - so I took the car out for some more logging.

Remember, at this point I have the APR K04 software, and Unitronic's Stage 3 DSG.

Did several runs with the car all within an hour. 

Temps were just below freezing while I was testing and logging.

All the following runs resulted in misfires as previously described:



APR 100oct, MAF enabled, W/M enabled
APR 100oct, MAF unplugged, W/M enabled
APR 93oct, MAF enabled, W/M enabled
APR 93oct, MAF unplugged, W/M enabled
APR 93oct, MAF enabled, W/M disabled
APR 93oct, MAF unplugged, W/M disabled


Again, tried the following with NO MISFIRES



APR stock, MAF enabled, W/M enabled
APR stock, MAF unplugged, W/M enabled
APR stock, MAF enabled, W/M disabled

APR stock, MAF unplugged, W/M disabled



I'm really having a hard time beleiving the issue is the DSG software if it's not happening on stock. I'm also having difficulty beleiving it's the MAF getting false readings if it's unplugged...

I wonder if I might be asking too much of the APR software - they don't offer an exhaust or intake package for this vehicle, and thus their tune may not work with it...? I'm going out to see the Unitronic dealer tomorrow and I'll see if they will install the Stage 2+ software and let me test it.

Either way, I'll leave the Unitronic dealer tomorrow either entirely Unitronic (ECU & DSG), or only with APR.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

let me know how this workis i have been flirting with making the switch also but i am still waiting for arin to come through for with a little something.....have u tried running the stock intake???


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

One Bad MKV said:


> let me know how this workis i have been flirting with making the switch also but i am still waiting for arin to come through for with a little something.....have u tried running the stock intake???


I went through dozens of threads and blogs of possible causes, the one common "solution" I refuse to do is to go back to the restrictive stock intake. I've found a few posts on this and another forum where arin stands firm the problem is the intake and the MAF.

Oh well, hopefully today will be the day we figure this out. I'll post up my highway driving results with the car tonight, and assuming all is well I'll track the car later in the week.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.

First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.

so we put the AWE intake back on and headed over to Foreign Automotive (the local Unitronic dealer)

They reflashed the original, stock DSG software, took the car out and...... MISFIRES!!!

The only thing left here in the exhaust - and there's no F**king way i'm pulling that out. Since H2Sport is very confident we've eliminated any possibility of a hardware failure - it must be software.

I'll follow up tomorrow morning with H2Sport and APR, and I'll see if they can get me to the stock exhaust software for the K04... Failing that, Unitronic has been very generous and offered to reflash my car to their K04 software for me to test if it solves the problem.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

Aoshi said:


> Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.
> 
> First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.
> 
> ...


if the switch solves ur problems i will make the switch also i was emailing with arin for a file earlier this year...but said they where just busy right now and could not help till later so i backed off but would ne nice if we could all have the best file out there....that loue32 has a file that has been working for him for a while now and was having this issues also and has had the file for about a reay and no issues why not make out to us....Arin also said they were going to try out a new file in his car and where going to do some testing on it so that might be coming out well at least i hope i would not want to spend an other 700+ for an othr company to tune my car i like iapr but i hope that can help us out


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.
> 
> First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.
> 
> ...


Been following your thread with interest (and hoping you get it solved). I would go on record as saying there is no way the exhaust is causing misfires unless there is a possible leak somewhere (you've checked?). Even a clogged cat would likely not cause it, just poor power. I use the AWE downpipe with my K04 and it runs great. But I'm also on Revo tune currently, but switching to Uni soon as I'd rather run S3 injectors.

Do any of the local tuners have a spare ECU you could swap in? I had unexplained troubles like this once with my old 944T, and it turned out to be a bum KLR ECU. At least you are narrowing things down.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

this sucks exhaust i really find it very hard to beleive that would cause those missfires....and i am not about to drop in an other good amount for a down pipe that i already have


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

I've done the full rounds of logging APR asked for, so I'll give them some time to digest those and see what they say. I'll post up here when I get any new information.


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

One Bad MKV said:


> this sucks exhaust i really find it very hard to beleive that would cause those missfires....and i am not about to drop in an other good amount for a down pipe that i already have



If you have your stock downpipe you could always temporarily drop it back in for a test. But misfires are typically an upstream problem.


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.
> 
> First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, have you tested fuel quality?

There was a local case here in OR, told to us by our BG Products rep. He had a case at Hyundai where a new car had random misfires, Hyundai’s tech line said to put new inj’s in, still misfiring. They put a new ECU in, still misfiring. The put a different ECU file on the new ECU, still misfiring. Then they tested fuel quality and there was 17% ethanol(too high!)!! They put more good 91/92octane in and the misfires vanished.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

jeremy_matrix said:


> Out of curiosity, have you tested fuel quality?
> 
> There was a local case here in OR, told to us by our BG Products rep. He had a case at Hyundai where a new car had random misfires, Hyundai’s tech line said to put new inj’s in, still misfiring. They put a new ECU in, still misfiring. The put a different ECU file on the new ECU, still misfiring. Then they tested fuel quality and there was 17% ethanol(too high!)!! They put more good 91/92octane in and the misfires vanished.


No, we haven't tested the fuel quality here but I've had the problem for over 7 months now, far too long for me to be the only one if it was a gasoline issue.

The only source of 94 octane in Ontario is Petro Canada, so I would think the community would have noticed this issue by now...? Wouldn't the Stage 3 guys would be more affected by bad gas than the K04's?


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> No, we haven't tested the fuel quality here but I've had the problem for over 7 months now, far too long for me to be the only one if it was a gasoline issue.
> 
> The only source of 94 octane in Ontario is Petro Canada, so I would think the community would have noticed this issue by now...? Wouldn't the Stage 3 guys would be more affected by bad gas than the K04's?


Ok, understood. Just trying to help with other possibilities.

Anyone even with a stock car would be affected by crappy fuel. It's been a recurring issue here in OR since we have no state fuel testing/standards, so we always get the junk fuel.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

i was thinking it could be fuel problem also i am going to try and get some 109 oct and dump it in turn of the them and then with the meth see what happes keep us updated i did those same logs a while back but ended in nothing


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

A quick update since it's been so long. 

Over the past 2 months I've been running the stock intake with APR's 93 oct program and water meth off.

I still get misfires, and have logged them extensively for APR's support. I've re-created every situation I misfire in, including a few 4th gear pulls where i expereienced several pops when passing through 5,500rpm. FYI - The misfires ARE showing up in all my logs.

Requested vs. Actual... everything... looks good. Fuel trims, boost pressure, rail pressure...

So I can appreciate APR having trouble tracking this down as the car logs show the engine is working as expected. I am however, dissapointed with the lack of support from APR throughout this.

I've returned logs whenever requested - usually within a few hours of being asked. I have gone through every conceivable piece of hardware on the vehicle and tested/replaced everything that could be causing this.... I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars chasing this problem down over the last year as has been documented in this thread.

I have purchased every APR product they make for my car, and I still have yet to have any useful help from them on this issue. I am extremely frustrated and I cannot imagine how this is not a software issue at this point and thus I am moving on to try another tuner.

Now for the good news - Both Unitronic and GIAC have stepped up and offered to give me a 30 day trial of their software! I am going to trial the GIAC software first, as they have a 100 oct tune. I'm also excited that they will give me a tune to take full advantage of all the upgrades I have on my car. I've scheduled track time on May 16th and will be logging my runs. 

I will post up my results with the new tune as soon as I can.


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> A quick update since it's been so long.
> 
> Over the past 2 months I've been running the stock intake with APR's 93 oct program and water meth off.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update Aoshi. Sorry you are still having issues.  (FYI, our client's misfires were due to 3 faulty S3 inj's. Supposedly there was a faulty run of inj's from Audi AG, and of his 7 inj's, 3 were bad. Issue solved now though)

I look forward to hearing your feedback with the GIAC! :thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

jeremy_matrix said:


> Thanks for the update Aoshi. Sorry you are still having issues.  (FYI, our client's misfires were due to 3 faulty S3 inj's. Supposedly there was a faulty run of inj's from Audi AG, and of his 7 inj's, 3 were bad. Issue solved now though)
> 
> I look forward to hearing your feedback with the GIAC! :thumbup::thumbup::beer:


That is very intereting. I'm running S3 injectors as well. 

How did you determine the injectors were bad? 

I got mine last spring from APR.... If I still have this issue with the GIAC software, I'll swap out my injectors. Though I think if they were bad I'd be having worse issues than a misfires under these conditions. Who knows, always worth looking into! 

Thanks for the info Jeremy!


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> That is very intereting. I'm running S3 injectors as well.
> 
> How did you determine the injectors were bad?
> 
> ...


Our client got his early this year, although who knows how long the vendor had them in their stock. Perhaps they're from the same run as yours? In order for you to diagnose, you'd need to get 4 good inj's(we're actually going to suggest having inj's flow tested before install as they require the intake manifold to be pulled for install).

Here was how the saga played out;

-InjA(original in X kit) in cyl1.
-InjB(original in X kit) in cyl2.
-InjC(original in X kit) in cyl3.
-InjD(original in X kit) in cyl4.
-Misfires on cyl2 and cyl3 after kit installed….only under throttle kickdown/WOT/uphill/5000rpms.
-Moved InjA to cyl2, moved InjB to cyl1, moved InjC to cyl4, moved InjD to cyl3. Now misfires on cyl1 and cyl4. This suggests B and C are faulty.
-Client had X send 2 new replacement inj’s (E and F). InjE installed in cyl1(so InjB is now out of the car), InjF installed in cyl4(so InjC is now out of the car). Misfires on cyl1 are gone so InjB is a known faulty inj and InjE is a known good inj. InjF is a possible faulty inj as cyl4 is still misfiring, and we don’t know if InjC is really faulty or not as cyl4 is still misfiring.
-So now we only have cyl4 still misfiring….but feels like a coilpack misfire as misfires at onset of boost, lower rpms. Swapped coil packs around, no change. Swapped new plugs around, no change.
-Client had XX send 1 new replacement inj (InjG). Since InjA in cyl2 wasn’t misfiring, we consider that a known good inj—same with InjD, known good. So, we moved InjA from cyl2 to cyl4(InjF is now out of car), and installed InjG into cyl2. Cyl2 is still not misfiring and cyl4 is still misfiring, so we know InjG is a known good inj and InjA is actually still a known good inj as it’s never been on a misfiring cyl. Cyl4 misfire now back to only under throttle kickdown/WOT/uphill/5000rpms.
-So, we know;
InjA and D that came in original X kit are both known good.
InjB is a faulty inj that came in original X kit.
InjC is a possible faulty inj that came in original X kit.
InjE(X replacement) is known good as it hasn’t been on a misfiring cyl, InjF(X replacement) is a possible faulty.
InjG(XX replacement) is known good as it hasn’t been on a misfiring cyl.

X tested InjB, C, and F, and verified they were faulty.
Issue solved via diagnosis.


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

I was hoping there was a lot number or color ring or some other identifying feature. Oh well, I'll test the new software first, and if that fails I'll try a new set of injectors.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

yeah well that is how it works bro we are little fish in a pond this full with sharks lol so yeah....when are u getting the other tune in.....I was thinking about switching over to gonzo to take full advantage of all my mods but we will see still waiting on arin my self


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

One Bad MKV said:


> yeah well that is how it works bro we are little fish in a pond this full with sharks lol so yeah....when are u getting the other tune in.....I was thinking about switching over to gonzo to take full advantage of all my mods but we will see still waiting on arin my self


Wednesday I'm heading over to load it up. Assuming there's no problems with this tune, I'll head over to the dyno and check out what kind of numbers it's putting down.

From what I've read so far GIAC has an excellent K04 tune. I was sold when I saw they had a file for the K04 with S3 injectors, HPFP, Intake, TB Exhaust, FMIC, RS4 FPR, and 100 oct. Essentially, everything my car has on the powertrain.

For the record, even with the misfires APR was putting down 316whp and 304wtq on a dynojet. I'm sure it would have been much better if it didn't choke.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

post up results asap i want somthing more agressive more made for my mods but we will see what happens i have waited already for about 4 months can wait a little longer


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Just got back from the tuning shop -

GIAC doesn't have a file for this ECU, so they are prepping one for me. So we'll have to wait a few more days..


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

man! I was hoping to see what the results were today.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

dam i was all ready to hear how it went oh well ill wait


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

File is ready, but I can't get in until Monday to get it done.

The suspense is killing me!


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

call off work and go =)


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Ok, GIAC installed.

Car feels good. :thumbup:

After over an hours of 3rd and 4th gear pulls, in Pump and Race mode, with Meth on and off... 

Drum roll please....

No misfires.. Not one.. Not a single POP, Click, Bang or anything else.

I'm not calling this one though until I've tracked the car (This wednesday) and I've run it on the Dyno (next wednesday). I want to be 100% sure this problem is solved.

I've logged several of my pulls the same way I did the APR ones. When/if I ever get the chance I'd like to sit down and see what the main difference is between them.

I'll keep you posted over the next 10 days.


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

Just what i needed to hear since u have all these logs comparing would be nice and post up what u fint post up track results......u should have tried this before all the modiffications u had to do even thou in the end u will benefit from them.....


On a side not i had the same issues and they just went away lol only thing i did was reflash the car changed the plugs and added an afftermarket intercooler.....still want somthing more agresive for my car so i will just have to wait and see


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## jeremy_matrix (Nov 13, 2006)

Aoshi said:


> Ok, GIAC installed.
> 
> Car feels good. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Woot woot!! Let us know how it is after your track day and dyno.
:thumbup:


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

One Bad MKV said:


> Just what i needed to hear since u have all these logs comparing would be nice and post up what u fint post up track results......u should have tried this before all the modiffications u had to do even thou in the end u will benefit from them.....
> 
> 
> On a side not i had the same issues and they just went away lol only thing i did was reflash the car changed the plugs and added an afftermarket intercooler.....still want somthing more agresive for my car so i will just have to wait and see


I wonder if it was your flash.. I changed my plugs (More than once) and I'm running the APR intercooler and that didn't make a difference for me..  We flashed and re-flashed my car back and forth between Testpipe and standard APR as well, so it definitely wasn't a corrupted flash for me.

I spent today with H2Sport hammering the car *HARD*. We really leaned on it, walked it through 3rd and 4th, hard shifting from 6th down to 2nd and so on, and they didn't see any errors or issues.

Tomorrow is the cars first day at the track since we finished the suspension and brakes. I can't wait!


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

updates how was track night???


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

The engine seems perfect now.. No misfires at WOT at all, and I ran several great runs while logging with vcds.

I did however discover very quickly that we overlooked a minor change to my alignment that made a huge difference on the track.. we installed the new suspension in the car two weeks back and obviously did an alignment on the car afterwards.. I didn't notice the rear toe change on the alignment report - but holy SH!T i noticed it on the track!

Long story short, rear toe was reduced and the car got really "twitchy" at track speeds.

I still managed to get all the way to 7,200 RPM in 5th gear.. and the only misfires logged were single ones during downshifts which don't concern me at all.

I'll post up when I get this on the dyno!


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## One Bad MKV (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice good to here u got it going.....i talked to apr and suposablky ther is a new release coming oiut for us fsi ko4ed guys with in the next xoupke of months


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

Just got back from the Dyno. I used a different shop that's closer to me.

I also did this pull in 4th gear, and my APR one in 3rd.. so it's hard to compare.. I'll do a comparison pull at the same dyno after the DSG software is updated.

Anyway - 

4th gear, 2 pulls and both shows 304 WHP and 288 WTQ. 

More importantly than the numbers, the TQ curve looks identical to APR, but the power curve (HP) is still rising when we stopped at redline.

The GIAC file also runs leaner than APR, which I assume was done because I'm running Meth injection and don't require the extra cooling.

And with that, I have confirmed WITHOUT A DOUBT the APR K04 file for my car is faulty.

I will post up in the future a direct comparison of the dyno (same dyno, same gear) against the APR one so keep an eye out for that.

Special thanks to the folks @ GIAC for getting me set up with a working file for my car, and thanks to everyone that helped me get this resolved. With any luck for the rest of you, APR's rumored "update" for the K04 will resolve this!


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## allset (May 17, 2011)

*updates on misfires/GIAC?*



Aoshi said:


> Just got back from the Dyno. I used a different shop that's closer to me.
> 
> I also did this pull in 4th gear, and my APR one in 3rd.. so it's hard to compare.. I'll do a comparison pull at the same dyno after the DSG software is updated.
> 
> ...


any updates on ko4 misfires/GIAC swap???


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## Aoshi (Nov 25, 2011)

No issues with misfires since, but I'm disappointed with GIAC for another reason

I paid for a fully loaded *custom* ECU back in April, that's 6 months ago... I also specified I had the AWE exhaust and thus needed a CAT delete.. All I have is Stock, Pump and Race.. I should also have Valet and Kill, but neither of them work... I'm also have a CEL for the Cat efficiency..

6 months later, I have had ZERO updates from them. I'm working with PFAFF tuning as their dealer, and have asked every week or so for an update....

FYI - APR *STILL* hasn't admitted to causing the initial problems and have refused me a refund.


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