# 20vt or 16vt



## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

Which is the most efficient setup? I have heard that 16 valves is actually better then 20 valves. Which engine setup is superior for big power and lots of boost. 1.8 20vt or 2.0 16vt


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## yungsta802 (Oct 1, 2007)

they both make about the same power but the 16v head flows alot better then the 1.8t head and the 1.8t head has an extra 4 valves.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Thread's worthless without pics????


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

VS


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

i've seen that stuff before.


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## vw_owner (Dec 19, 2008)

you need to explain a little more about what you are trying to accompish. are you talking about either keeping your 16V in a MKI, II, or III and turboing it, or swaping any of those to a 20V or what? if that is the case, 16V all the way. doing a 20V swap is kind of a pain in the ass. the 16V is a good platform if that is what you already have, and i have seen some on mid-high boost with over 400whp. of course this can be accomplished with the 20V as well, but its all a matter of what your power goals are, and what the setup will be going into and such. *INFO INFO INFO*


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## iluvfastcarz (Mar 15, 2004)

yungsta802 said:


> they both make about the same power but the 16v head flows alot better then the 1.8t head and the 1.8t head has an extra 4 valves.


 Uhm, since when does a 16V flow "a (space) lot" better than a 20V?


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

My car is a g60, I am thinking of swapping but I am unsure which way to go. Right now I am thinking about 16vt because i can run on digifant at least for a while. Power goal would be 250-300whp with the ability to go 400whp.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

It all depends on what fuel you have available and what engine management. With E85 or C16 you could do that with your 8v


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## vw_owner (Dec 19, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> It all depends on what fuel you have available and what engine management. With E85 or C16 you could do that with your 8v


 true, but a 400whp 16vt is far more reliable than a 400whp 8vt. now that i know your goals, 16V all the way, without a doubt. you can 100% still use digifant. you can even buy the turbo kit from BBM that is proven to put down 400whp, the Serial Killa. everything will already bolt up like stock, and you can still use your 02A G60 trans , if that is what you already have in your car, which is a pretty strong trans, just throw an LSD in there and you shouldn't have any problems. just take it from me, a 20VT swap in anything pre MKIV is a real pain, and just when you think you've got it all figured out, you find more crap that you need.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

They'll both make 400whp with no problem, choose whatever you can get for cheap.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i think the 8v weighs less & may simply better suit a laggy power adder 
not to mention only 1 cam to regrind, fuel rail, velocity, $ etc


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## whiteriot (Nov 10, 2004)

EL DRIFTO said:


> i think the 8v weighs less & may simply better suit a laggy power adder
> not to mention only 1 cam to regrind, fuel rail, velocity, $ etc


The f*ck? I may not be all in sorts right now but this doesn't make much sense to me.


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## Ex-ricer01 (Jan 28, 2009)

iluvfastcarz said:


> Uhm, since when does a 16V flow "a (space) lot" better than a 20V?


Since always, the only 20v head that flowed more stock to stock vs. the 16v was the AEB, but with port work the 16v always wins. Why do you think VW went back to the 16v with the newer FSI motors

My vote 16v


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

And in the end it all means nothing. The amount of power you can make is determined by knock threshold and flow is only one of the factors in it.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Ex-ricer01 said:


> Since always, the only 20v head that flowed more stock to stock vs. the 16v was the AEB, but with port work the 16v always wins. Why do you think VW went back to the 16v with the newer FSI motors
> 
> My vote 16v


because they HAD to, in order to put the injector firing directly in to the cylinder. lol


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

for the OP. go with the 1.8T (wideband version). you'll have way more, and way stronger software options than if you go 16v hybrid.


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## iluvfastcarz (Mar 15, 2004)

Ex-ricer01 said:


> Since always, the only 20v head that flowed more stock to stock vs. the 16v was the AEB, but with port work the 16v always wins. Why do you think VW went back to the 16v with the newer FSI motors
> 
> My vote 16v


Uhm yeah, do you remember seeing the flow chart that was on the forum a while ago? Now if you're going to perform port work then it is not comparing apples to apples. Please tell me how much hp a stock 16V head can take compared to a stock 20V which was already built for boost. Please do some personal test before you make more remarks. Kthxbai


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

another huge factor is cost, think, if i fu*k it up, whats cheaper to replace? a 20v block or head, or a 16v block or head. in my case ABA 16vt, i got the bottom end for 50 bucks, a whole 16v GLI parts car 400 bucks. and have a tried and true combination that can throw out a sh*t ton of power for much cheaper than 20vt.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

The options would be a aba 16vt (which I am leaning towards) or a AEB 20vt (for ease of swap compared to other 20vt). The reasons I am leaning towards the 16vt is because A) It is cheaper, at least initially B) I can still run digifant (although I have heard it is not the best) and C)I read somewhere that more than 2 intake valves per cylinder reduces efficiency because they are too crowded to be effective. My primary concern is that I want to reach my power goal of 300whp and have the car remain semi-reliable.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

amount of money i'd invest in to a digifant 16v swap = 0

dead end with no readily available tunes (which need to be bang on due to narrowband and map sensor dependencies)


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

For the cheapest 300whp I would just bolt in a aba 8v. Forget the chip tune though. You will need standalone. Again. A ABA running a standalone with any T3 or larger should be able to hit 300whp in the hands of a competent tuner. With E85 or C16 you should be able to get 400whp.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Good luck trying to get 300whp out of an ABA with a T3 lol.

Even a ported German ABA head will have a tough time to keep up with a stock 16v head in terms of AIRFLOW, the ability to make power is determined by Airflow, the head that flows the most all things being equal (turbo, boost level, injector, fuel type and tune) will make the most power.


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

I heard the exhaust ports on the 16v heads flow like poop.


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## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

Spiller337 said:


> I heard the exhaust ports on the 16v heads flow like poop.


HAHA, they do. WTF did the OP even start this thread

P&P AEB head 1mm o/s valves FTW :cheers:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

killa said:


> Good luck trying to get 300whp out of an ABA with a T3 lol.
> 
> Even a ported German ABA head will have a tough time to keep up with a stock 16v head in terms of AIRFLOW, the ability to make power is determined by Airflow, the head that flows the most all things being equal (turbo, boost level, injector, fuel type and tune) will make the most power.


. Again. Airflow is only part of the equation. If you need more airflow then you can turn up the boost. The only limiting factor is the knock threshold. You can also turn this up by running different fuel to raise that. 

Yes Paul a T3 on an 8v could probably do 300 (with enough boost and good gas). And just for the record im not trying to recomend a T3 for 300whp. Go punch yourself in the balls for me will ya? LOL


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

TIGninja said:


> . Again. Airflow is only part of the equation. If you need more airflow then you can turn up the boost. The only limiting factor is the knock threshold. You can also turn this up by running different fuel to raise that.
> 
> Yes Paul a T3 on an 8v could probably do 300 (with enough boost and good gas). And just for the record im not trying to recomend a T3 for 300whp. Go punch yourself in the balls for me will ya? LOL


For a second there i thought you were recomending a T3 lol


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

TBT-Syncro said:


> amount of money i'd invest in to a digifant 16v swap = 0
> 
> dead end with no readily available tunes (which need to be bang on due to narrowband and map sensor dependencies)


 Doesn't sns make tunes for digifant for 16vt's?


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## tehmonkay (May 5, 2006)

> Uhm yeah, do you remember seeing the flow chart that was on the forum a while ago? Now if you're going to perform port work then it is not comparing apples to apples. Please tell me how much hp a stock 16V head can take compared to a stock 20V which was already built for boost. Please do some personal test before you make more remarks. Kthxbai


Make sure to build your head so it can handle all the boost lmao.


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## iluvfastcarz (Mar 15, 2004)

tehmonkay said:


> Make sure to build your head so it can handle all the boost lmao.


20V = already built for boost (thus not having to invest "moar" money into building the head) 16V= not built for FI. Have you ever had a properly built cylinder head? Machine work gets very expensive, I had $1200 wrapped up into an 8V counterflow head. More valves = more money. Trust me, it is very very hard and it requires a vast amount of time and money to get anywhere close to 300hp out of an 8V.


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## tehmonkay (May 5, 2006)

What makes you think you need to port a 16v head, install aftermarket cams, and oversized valves with 5 angle valve jobs etc to boost a 16v? If your head flows better out of the box, you'll make the same power with the same turbo, only the higher flowing head will make that power with lower boost pressure. The cams don't have alot of overlap oem, if at all, so there is no reason you'd have to build the head to make power. With low compression pistons, hardware, and a steel headgasket, you could make plenty of useful power out of a 16v.

This also makes alot of sense especially thinking of the fact that 1.8ts have the smallest turbos on them that i've ever seen with my own two eyes, and the cam profiles are made to match.

Off of that topic, but more on 20v vs 16v, Just as a reference as well, toyota had a 20v and a 16v version of the 4age, the 4age was used in formula atlantic racing where they make ludacris amounts of power out of an NA 1.6l engine, did any of them use the higher flowing out of the box 20v variant? No, why? The extra valve in the cylinder actually started to choke the engine with the size cams and ports they were using.

What is the lesson you should take from this? The head flow aspect of a motor should be the last thing you're thinking about when deciding 1.8t or 16vt, it should be.

Do I want an easy swap with oem style wiring with factory like reliability, and excellent driveability with almost no work other than the initial swap?

Or do I want an all out motor with a standalone EMS making alot of power where i'll be changing most of the factory parts with stronger or more adjustable units?

First answer, go with a 1.8t, it's simple, 2nd answer, well, an extra .2l of displacement is worth more to most people than factory head flowbench charts when it comes to turbo response.


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

16v is probably the cheapest motor to turbo. use an aba bottom end which are a dime a dozen. turbo manfiold is like 100 on ebay same as atp. and it will be alot easier for you to make more power on the 16v vs the 8v.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

this thread confuses me so much. i must be doing everything wrong


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

turbodub said:


> this thread confuses me so much. i must be doing everything wrong


Its all about the E pen!s. More is better right?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

For the guys power goals the cheapest way to get there is the 2l aba. You can argue all day long about how much flow and crap like that but in the end the limiting factor is always going to be the fuel you use. Flow doesnt mean a thing if you cant turn up the boost any more. The fuel system and engine management are more important then head flow.

In the end none of this matters anyways because your just going to blow your trans to pieces anyways.


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## tehmonkay (May 5, 2006)

TIGninja said:


> For the guys power goals the cheapest way to get there is the 2l aba. You can argue all day long about how much flow and crap like that but in the end the limiting factor is always going to be the fuel you use. Flow doesnt mean a thing if you cant turn up the boost any more. The fuel system and engine management are more important then head flow.
> 
> In the end none of this matters anyways because your just going to blow your trans to pieces anyways.


This is what i'm going for in my scirocco actually, much cheaper to build and boost.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Ok, i'm not going to get into any arguments here but here's how it goes, you can make power with any head, the goal is to find a head that flows more so that you can move more air. the more air you move the less pressure you need to make power.
Ex: stock 2L 16v motor might need 1 bar of pressure to make 300whp with a T3/T4 57 trim whereas the same setup with a ported head might only need 11 or 12 psi.

This may not seem like a big difference but it will be once you run 2,3 and 4 bar of boost where the difference will be huge. The goal here is to make power so even an ABA head can get you the 300whp, however if you want to make it more efficiently then you would do it with a higher flowing head.

Bottom line is that the head is the only thing that will get you power all things being equal ex: 8 vs 16 vs 20v heads with the same displacement, intake and exhaust manifold type, assuming a good tune on all, etc.


Head: Bigger is better











I can talk real life numbers if anyone disagrees


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## tehmonkay (May 5, 2006)

killa said:


> Ok, i'm not going to get into any arguments here but here's how it goes, you can make power with any head, the goal is to find a head that flows more so that you can move more air. the more air you move the less pressure you need to make power.
> Ex: stock 2L 16v motor might need 1 bar of pressure to make 300whp with a T3/T4 57 trim whereas the same setup with a ported head might only need 11 or 12 psi.
> 
> This may not seem like a big difference but it will be once you run 2,3 and 4 bar of boost where the difference will be huge. The goal here is to make power so even an ABA head can get you the 300whp, however if you want to make it more efficiently then you would do it with a higher flowing head.
> ...


Actually i agree with everything you said, you just say it way better than i do.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

killa said:


> Ok, i'm not going to get into any arguments here but here's how it goes, you can make power with any head, the goal is to find a head that flows more so that you can move more air. the more air you move the less pressure you need to make power.
> Ex: stock 2L 16v motor might need 1 bar of pressure to make 300whp with a T3/T4 57 trim whereas the same setup with a ported head might only need 11 or 12 psi.
> 
> This may not seem like a big difference but it will be once you run 2,3 and 4 bar of boost where the difference will be huge. The goal here is to make power so even an ABA head can get you the 300whp, however if you want to make it more efficiently then you would do it with a higher flowing head.
> ...


Sure all things being equal bigger is better but the 20V head does have one serious advantage over the 16V head. Combustion chamber efficiency. The true domed chamber of a 20V head is VASTLY superior to the wedge chamber of the 16V. And that means you can run more timing with less fuel and less boost and still make power. Add the variable valve timing available with the later heads and the power potential is impressive.

As far as the original question this thread poses..... It's certainly easier to do the 16VT and 300hp is very atainable but I'd still go 20V. In fact I am going that way. I'm getting ready to do the mock up on a spare ABA short block to check piston/valve clearance and figure out my plumbing. But I'm not looking for 300whp only 200. If I did want that much though I would simply find a K04 to replace the K03 I'm using.

No matter which way you go with this you WILL need the following: An efficient intercooler, without one the motor won't last and I'm not even sure 300hp is possible out of a 2.0L or smaller without one. A good standalone ECU and a good tuner. A strong ignition system. Lots of money, to do this and make it last you'll need quality parts and they ain't cheap.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ohio or Ill then? You little portugese ass monkey 

If you are building anything but an all out drag car a ABA is more then good. You would be much better to concentrate on a good tune with a standalone and good fuel (I like E85 because its everywhere here).


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## tehmonkay (May 5, 2006)

Prof315 said:


> Sure all things being equal bigger is better but the 20V head does have one serious advantage over the 16V head. Combustion chamber efficiency. The true domed chamber of a 20V head is VASTLY superior to the wedge chamber of the 16V. And that means you can run more timing with less fuel and less boost and still make power. Add the variable valve timing available with the later heads and the power potential is impressive.
> 
> As far as the original question this thread poses..... It's certainly easier to do the 16VT and 300hp is very atainable but I'd still go 20V. In fact I am going that way. I'm getting ready to do the mock up on a spare ABA short block to check piston/valve clearance and figure out my plumbing. But *I'm not looking for 300whp only 200. If I did want that much though I would simply find a K04 to replace the K03 I'm using.*
> 
> No matter which way you go with this you WILL need the following: An efficient *intercooler, without one the motor won't last and I'm not even sure 300hp is possible out of a 2.0L or smaller without one.* A good standalone ECU and a good tuner. A strong ignition system. Lots of money, to do this and make it last you'll need quality parts and they ain't cheap.


A: A k04 making 300whp? I doubt that.
B: Use methanol
C: For 200whp i wouldnt waste any time or money swapping a 20v, when an aba or g60 with a t3 60 trim could make that.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Sure all things being equal bigger is better but the 20V head does have one serious advantage over the 16V head. Combustion chamber efficiency. The true domed chamber of a 20V head is VASTLY superior to the wedge chamber of the 16V. And that means you can run more timing with less fuel and less boost and still make power. Add the variable valve timing available with the later heads and the power potential is impressive.
> 
> As far as the original question this thread poses..... It's certainly easier to do the 16VT and 300hp is very atainable but I'd still go 20V. In fact I am going that way. I'm getting ready to do the mock up on a spare ABA short block to check piston/valve clearance and figure out my plumbing. But I'm not looking for 300whp only 200. If I did want that much though I would simply find a K04 to replace the K03 I'm using.
> 
> No matter which way you go with this you WILL need the following: An efficient intercooler, without one the motor won't last and I'm not even sure 300hp is possible out of a 2.0L or smaller without one. A good standalone ECU and a good tuner. A strong ignition system. Lots of money, to do this and make it last you'll need quality parts and they ain't cheap.


The 20v chamber is indeed better than the 16v and more "honda-like" but i did mention all things being equal, never did i say that the 16v was better than the 20v or vice versa and all things being equal i still stand correct as the airflow is the most important factor.

I'm not biased in any way, got a 2032cc turbo 16v and 2008cc turbo 20v, and out of all cars that i've owened i'll have to say that my mk4 vr had the best motor


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

So anyone have any pics of the ports and combusation chamber of the new 4 valve heads?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

tehmonkay said:


> A: A k04 making 300whp? I doubt that.
> B: Use methanol
> C: For 200whp i wouldnt waste any time or money swapping a 20v, when an aba or g60 with a t3 60 trim could make that.


A: Why not? one of my best friends has a 1.8T in his rado and he's making 18lbs of boost with the K03. We haven't dynoed yet but I gotta tell the car is smokin fast. No traction at all in the first 3 gears at 75% throttle or more with a stock G60 gear box.
B: fine until you forget to fill the bottle.
C: The head with a TT intake and an exhaust manifold was free. the turbo was $50 and I can use my MS3 to take advantage of the hall sensor for sequential and COP plus run the VVT.
D: I'm building an OBD1 ABA 20/20 hybrid


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> So anyone have any pics of the ports and combusation chamber of the new 4 valve heads?


No pics but we have had a couple here in the shop for port work/valve job. (the heads belong to a Grand AM team driving Mk5 jettas). They look VERY similar to the 1.8T 20V head just no middle intake valve as that is where the direct injection port is. They have a weird restrictor plate that goes into the intake port. I have heard that APR took it out last year in thier Grand Am cars... made lots more power but they got caught and were penalized for bending the rules. I do know this.... Overrev or miss a shift and the valves bend.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> A: Why not? one of my best friends has a 1.8T in his rado and he's making 18lbs of boost with the K03. We haven't dynoed yet but I gotta tell the car is smokin fast. No traction at all in the first 3 gears at 75% throttle or more with a stock G60 gear box.
> B: fine until you forget to fill the bottle.
> C: The head with a TT intake and an exhaust manifold was free. the turbo was $50 and I can use my MS3 to take advantage of the hall sensor for sequential and COP plus run the VVT.
> D: I'm building an OBD1 ABA 20/20 hybrid


A: i've never looked at a K04 compressor map but i don't think that it has enough flow for 300whp
B: No traction and a small turbo like a K03 or K04 only means that you're making power at low rpm causing your car to spin, low rpm torque = kills hp as you need the torque to be delivered high in the rpm range to get the proper hp since HP=(tqxrpm)/5252

Boost is only pressure, you might be spiking to 18 psi with a K03 or even a K04 but you won't be able to hold that to redline because:

1) turbine wheel is too small and will eventually cause you to have more backpressure than intake pressure, egt will also go up, VE will drop
2) your compressor simply won't have enough flow to keep up with your motor'd demand and your boost will drop.

This goes back to i've mentioned before, try to get an EFFICIENT setup, this means a good head, properly sized turbo, etc.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

killa said:


> A: i've never looked at a K04 compressor map but i don't think that it has enough flow for 300whp
> B: No traction and a small turbo like a K03 or K04 only means that you're making power at low rpm causing your car to spin, low rpm torque = kills hp as you need the torque to be delivered high in the rpm range to get the proper hp since HP=(tqxrpm)/5252
> 
> Boost is only pressure, you might be spiking to 18 psi with a K03 or even a K04 but you won't be able to hold that to redline because:
> ...


Yeah I understand about hp being a mathematical funtion of torque and yeah I know there is a ton of torque down low causing wheel spin but 15mph to 120mph in a 1/4 mile means the car has got some fairly nasty power.

I realize that boost is just positive pressure but I've seen with my own eyes and logged it on the laptop 18psi steady to 6400 rpm

And yes a larger turbo would be way more efficient but we want to see how far the little stuff can be pushed. He put his entire setup together ( complete 1.8T engine, water to air intercooler, plumbing and MS1) for under $1500.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Yeah I understand about hp being a mathematical funtion of torque and yeah I know there is a ton of torque down low causing wheel spin but 15mph to 120mph in a 1/4 mile means the car has got some fairly nasty power.
> 
> I realize that boost is just positive pressure but I've seen with my own eyes and logged it on the laptop 18psi steady to 6400 rpm
> 
> And yes a larger turbo would be way more efficient but we want to see how far the little stuff can be pushed. He put his entire setup together ( complete 1.8T engine, water to air intercooler, plumbing and MS1) for under $1500.


A decent turbo setup for under $1500 is more than impressive, please post some pics up when you get a chance.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I vote 16vT, but I'm a little bias with my MK4 Jetta Wagon


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## tehmonkay (May 5, 2006)

Prof315 said:


> A: Why not? one of my best friends has a 1.8T in his rado and he's making 18lbs of boost with the K03. We haven't dynoed yet but I gotta tell the car is smokin fast. No traction at all in the first 3 gears at 75% throttle or more with a stock G60 gear box.
> B: fine until you forget to fill the bottle.
> C: The head with a TT intake and an exhaust manifold was free. the turbo was $50 and I can use my MS3 to take advantage of the hall sensor for sequential and COP plus run the VVT.
> D: I'm building an OBD1 ABA 20/20 hybrid


I meant run the whole motor on meth


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

killa said:


> A decent turbo setup for under $1500 is more than impressive, please post some pics up when you get a chance.


Be glad to... it ain't beautiful but it goes like stink. You also have to understand that both my friend an I are professional mechanics by trade so things generally don't cost us as much. For example, the 1.8T cost him core charges from to 2 used replacement motors and gaskets.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Be glad to... it ain't beautiful but it goes like stink. You also have to understand that both my friend an I are professional mechanics by trade so things generally don't cost us as much. For example, the 1.8T cost him core charges from to 2 used replacement motors and gaskets.


There's plenty of people here that don't pay retail for material and have access to vw parts at a very low cost. I know how the dealer works and have buit some motors for friends who work at the dealer, in trade they are very generous with the warranties if you know what i mean. You would be schocked to learn how much i spent to rebuild and convert my Audi A4 to a 2liter, all new parts of course.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

So, I think after weighing the options I will likely go with 16vt because it is at the very least as good as a 20vt and much simpler to swap


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

JamesS said:


> So, I think after weighing the options I will likely go with 16vt because it is at the very least as good as a 20vt and much simpler to swap


lol. fail

16vt is WAY more complicated to make happen than a 20V turbo


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## vw_owner (Dec 19, 2008)

TBT-Syncro said:


> lol. fail
> 
> 16vt is WAY more complicated to make happen than a 20V turbo


i honestly couldn't agree more. like i said before, the 20V swap is just much more complex, and very expensive to rebuild if you have to. typically, you can find 16V engine's pretty easy, and parts aren't that bad of a price, plus it will bolt right into your engine bay without any trouble. i have seen some very reliable, and very fast 16VT's rolling around. alot of 20VT swapped cars i see are either pissy show car trailer queen's, or all out drag cars. mine will be street/strip, and believe me when i say that i am pretty deep into this project money wise and still have a long ways to go. i make alot of money, and still i am feeling the hurt from this project. just can't wait for it to be over


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