# What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v?



## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Just for ****s and Giggles:
I have always wanted to build up a high-revving 8v.
What engine components would be necessary to do this?
I have a 1.8 solid-lifter head from a Rabbit GTI that I can port and polish.
Can a 1.8 hydraulic lifter head do just as good, with some stiff springs and lightweight retainers?
What is the best block to use? (I hear the 1.6L has better internals for revving: Shorter stroke?)
I would assume ITB's would be the best type of injection. However, would anyone suggest a stock VW FI system instead?
I am also thinking, knife-edged crank, lightweight flywheel, lightened intermediate shaft.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
BTW. I am not a fan of the 16v engine, so please don't try to talk me into it. 
Thanks,
Pic for views: My ABA on CIS:


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

Sounds like your on the rite track already, you don't have to go all out to make a 8V rev to 8K though. A friend of mine has a '84 GTI and he takes it to 8 grand on a mostly stock 8V engine. I would say just ballance/blueprint, port the head to the max, Pauter rods, stock crank and pistons, 288 cam, race header, ported intake w/ Audi 5000 TB, stock CIS w/ load sensative WUR, and whatever you can think of that I missed. The key is to have a strong rotating assembly, the rite cam, and lots of air flow. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_I have a 1.8 solid-lifter head from a Rabbit GTI that I can port and polish.
Can a 1.8 hydraulic lifter head do just as good, with some stiff springs and lightweight retainers?


Definetly go with the solid lifter head. The lift of an aggressive N/A cam will destroy the hydraulics (also, I believe there is something having to do with the moving parts not being able to keep up). Also, if your looking into ITB's, I don't think you can run CIS. Best bet, go with carbs. Don't forget high comp pistons. I believe you can do it on the cheap with a set from a 9a (but I am sure you probably knew that already







). 8v head + 9a pistons puts compression around 13.5:1, just don't forget to change the rod bushings to accept 9a rods (I know it's required with an ABA motor, not sure otherwise). Don't ignore the 288 cam as an option, but don't forget cams with durations around 300* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (abawp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abawp* »_ The lift of an aggressive N/A cam will destroy the hydraulics (also, I believe there is something having to do with the moving parts not being able to keep up). 

Tried that once, we had a reduced base circle solid lifter cam that just happened to have the same base circle as a stock hydro cam so we tried the racing cam in the hydro head, under load on the dyno, the lifters gave out at only about 5500rpm, I guess the internals of the lifters couldn't keep up with the rapid opening and closing ramps of the racing cam. But, with a properly designed hydrualic racing cam, the lifters will be good up to about 8000rpm or so. With solid lifters, there's no longer the same limitations, the valve train, if properly put together, will rev to whatever the rest of the engine set-up allows.



_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 10:10 PM 9-20-2006_


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

Do this


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks for the replies, that helped steer me in the right direction.
Now for some more detailed questions:
Which block to use?
I hear that for high-revving, the older 1.6L blocks like to spin high.
I know that to run ITB's, I couldn't use the stock CIS. In fact, I doubt the stock CIS flows air efficiently at 8k rpm anyway.
On a side note: At what point do stock ABA lifters start to float? I was just driving my Rabbit (the ABA on CIS posted above) and I notice that when I reach around 7200-7300 Rpm. there is a noticable loss in power, and I hear a strange vibration. Is this the valves floating?
Thanks for all the help,
Mike.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

One person to ask about this is Andrew Stauffer...
I would definitely go with a heavily ported solid lifter head in any case... or something like a Eurospec head...


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## girdwood (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Peter Tong)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I was running a poorly tuned (but awesomely built) 2035cc stroker from Autotech (basically 9a crank/rods w/ custom pistons), and a ported & polished JH head with HD valve springs, titanium retainers, 3 angle valve job, and a 286 cam... saw 7k all the time, but I was scared to bring it past that in fear of running lean on the CIS system. Felt like it would go farther though








Soon (hopefully







) to be fixed with Siemens 380cc injectors, ITBs, MSnS, etc...


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_One person to ask about this is Andrew Stauffer...
I would definitely go with a heavily ported solid lifter head in any case... or something like a Eurospec head...

Is Andrew on here, Do you know his username?


_Quote, originally posted by *rollercoasterracer* »_http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I was running a poorly tuned (but awesomely built) 2035cc stroker from Autotech (snip) saw 7k all the time, but I was scared to bring it past that *in fear of running lean on the CIS system*. Felt like it would go farther though








Soon (hopefully







) to be fixed with Siemens 380cc injectors, ITBs, MSnS, etc...

I take my ABA crossflow on CIS up to about 7200 rpm. regularly. I just installed an Autometer A/F gauge because I have your same concern.
I find that the CIS runs pretty close to rich up to 7200 rpm. (at the borderline between rich and stoich) But only when you are at full throttle. (WOT switch signals for more fuel when it is closed)
With my setup, I run very lean at partial throttle when I am accelerating. Once The WOT switch closes, my A/F gauge reads Rich. As the RPM's climb, it backs down into high Stoich...
Maybe I should take a video. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Mike.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_Is Andrew on here, Do you know his username?

Andrew's here, his username is just Andrew Stauffer.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
Andrew's here, his username is just Andrew Stauffer. 

I'm wild and overly creative like that








I would have no fears revving the pants off of nearly ANY vw bottom end. They're stout. While the rhetoric about stroke length is technically true(longer stroke, more torque, less rev happy as found in the ABA and TDIs), it just doesn't amount to much in our relatively tame world of modification. If the head can breathe at that rpm, she'll run it. My completely stock ABA bottom end, with a Eurospec head and ITBs, would rev into the low 7000rpms range with ease and sounded very happy doing so. That's on a Delta cam with over 300deg duration however. I even saw/datalogged 8200rpms or so in the waterbox a time or two. So that's my limited experience with revving the pants off of a completely stock block-it's all good. 
Now to bolster my position, take a look at Nate Romero's old 20/20 engine that he ran in his drag rado. Granted, a built race engine. Well balanced. But he ended up making max power, in excess of 225whp(well in excess but I can't recall) with an ABA bottom end with a TDI crank in it spinning into the 9k rpm range. 
That long stroke ain't holding you back. And VW engines are pretty balanced right from the factory. 
As vw owners, we'll probably never have an oversquare engine that's built to rev like crazy. I've heard of some using the old 1.6 crank and big bore to try, but I'll take the factory layout any day. It works better than you'd expect......



_Modified by Andrew Stauffer at 6:53 AM 9-22-2006_


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## The_Hamster (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Andrew Stauffer)*

years ago (like in late 99 or early 2000 when i first joined this place) there was a guy with the username "only 8v" who had some drag engines etc performing completely equal to fully tuned 16v engines.
the 16v is not that great flowing, the head isn't that well designed for flow.
anyway as said a ported solid lifter with balanced bottom end is your best bet. should work out well if you spend the money/time on it.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (The_Hamster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The_Hamster* »_years ago (like in late 99 or early 2000 when i first joined this place) there was a guy with the username "only 8v" who had some drag engines etc performing completely equal to fully tuned 16v engines.
*the 16v is not that great flowing, the head isn't that well designed for flow.*
anyway as said a ported solid lifter with balanced bottom end is your best bet. should work out well if you spend the money/time on it.

I am not a fan of the 16v for many reasons. A while back, I read (I think it was Collin's) an article about the VW 16v, and how it was a very poorly designed head when compared to other manufacturers at the time. After seeing one in person, I was still not impressed.
In my opinion, the benefits of the 16v don't outweigh the drawbacks.
Back on topic: I just found a good Solid Lifter counterflow GTI head that was sitting in my garage. It has no cracks between the valves, so I am going to start working on it.
Here's my plan:
OBD 1 ABA
Balance and knife-edge the crank,
Lighten and balance the intermediate shaft, lightweight shaft pulley.
Aluminum Flywheel.
83 GTI Solid lifter head,
(don't know what cam to go with yet)
Moderate port & polish,
Undercut valves, Stiffer springs, Titanium Retainers. (Now I wish I hadn't sold my old ones!)
ITB's on the Counterflow, and Some form of Standalone fuel and spark.








Let me know what you think. 



_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 9:40 AM 9-22-2006_


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (The_Hamster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The_Hamster* »_
the 16v is not that great flowing, the head isn't that well designed for flow.


True, the 16v isn't designed nearly as well as it could have been but it still flows MUCH better than an 8v head. The 8v head's potential (for n/a) peaks at slightly over 200hp whereas the 16v peaks in the upper 200's.


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## The_Hamster (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_True, the 16v isn't designed nearly as well as it could have been but it still flows MUCH better than an 8v head. The 8v head's potential (for n/a) peaks at slightly over 200hp whereas the 16v peaks in the upper 200's.

see that's not what the guy i mentioned earlier found. as i said he found the 8v can be modified to flow just as well as a modified 16v was, he was pulling equal power numbers that a competitor wth a 16v did, and they argued about it on the forums at length with numbers and technical stuff to back it up. this was a long time ago though, not sure if the username even exists anymore.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (The_Hamster)*

Without solid numbers to back that up, I'm just not believing that. I KNOW how hard it is to get 200hp n/a out of an 8v, very few people have done it whereas it's relatively easy with a 16v.


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## Ryan9118 (Sep 14, 2005)

Since I was just about to ask this question, I'll post mine in this topic...
I just picked up a Rabbit that I want to turn into a dedicated autocrosser. I was thinking about trying to build a high-revving 8v. So what about the EH-code 1.5 liter? Same bore as the 1.6 and 1.7 liters (79.5), just a shorter stroke (73.4 compared to 80.0 in the 1.6 and 86.4 in the 1.7). Obviously shorter stroke is the way to go for high-revs, correct? 
So this is what I was thinking. Overboring it by 1mm, or out to 81.0mm if possible, and use pistons from an RD 1.8 or similar motor for the higher compression ratio (if that would work). Would be an easy way to save money, I think. Then, stiffer valve springs, a huge cam, and a port and polish. Might be wise to use the head from a 1.8 liter as well, for better flow. That would be the basic scheme. Not too sure if the connecting rods would hold, but it would most likely need a full rebuild anyways before trying to rev to the moon. Ignition I was thinking an MSD with an adjustable rev-limiter, and probly stock fuel injection. Obviously the ideal thing to do would be ITB's, but it would be a miracle if I could get the money to even get started on something like this.
So what do you guys think? Is that a good plan or not? Any ideas for what kind of power it could make?


_Modified by Ryan9118 at 6:54 PM 9-23-2006_


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Sounds like a good plan. I am not sure about the particular details when it comes to pistons.
From what I have seen, stock CIS can support a variety of setups. I think that with good quality porting and polishing thru the intake tract, you will be able to flow air at higher RPM's. I believe that Europian GTI's came with bigger and better flowing CIS airflow meters. (I assume your Rabbit is CIS)
Mike.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_Without solid numbers to back that up, I'm just not believing that. I KNOW how hard it is to get 200hp n/a out of an 8v, very few people have done it whereas it's relatively easy with a 16v.

Hi,
I remember the vortex member that Hamster mentioned... I do believe the person mentioned drag raced this car:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Volks....html
Went 12.2 all motor... 2032 bottom end/Eurospec head... I've got pics saved away in my archives of the car...
Peter


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Peter Tong)*

That's an impressive car for sure but read the full specs, that car only weighs 1650 lbs WITH driver







so if you do the calculations, a 12.2 e.t. equates to about 180whp so maybe 215hp at the crank, to put that into perspective here are the specs from a couple of VWMS Mk3 group A 16v engines, the first one is based on the production ABF with a more or less conventional intake, the second one is destroked and bored out with ITB's:


Volkswagen 2.000 ccm 16V
stroke / bore 92,8 / 82,5
compression 11,5 : 1
torque 234 Nm
output 163 kW (222 bhp)
max. revs 8.100 -1
engine management VW Digifant
exhaust system competition system with metal catalytic converter



Volkswagen 2.000 ccm 16V
stroke / bore 90,0 / 84
compression 12,8 : 1
torque 245 Nm
output 191 KW (260 hp)
max. revs 8.000 -1
engine management Bosch Motronic
exhaust system competition system with metal catalytic converter

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the 8v motor, I drive them, I love them, I think they're great but to say you can get one to put out as much as a well built 16v, without FI, is simply wishful thinking.




_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 10:43 AM 9-24-2006_


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*

Hi Ed, 
I don't really get too emotional about lumps of metal so no worries there...








I do wonder what Bertils could have done with an all out no holds barred 8v... 
Has anyone seen an F3 dyno? 
There is no doubt that the 16v can make more power... its just a matter of airflow after all... On the other hand its sometimes more satisfying to be the underdog








best regards,
Peter T.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Peter Tong)*

This from an ad from someone sell a Dallara F3

Engine Builder: Bertils 
Manufacturer: VW 
Type: USF3 
Displacement: 2000cc 
Horsepower: 200 
Torque: 160 
Induction: Pectel Electronic FI 
Heads: AL 
Block: Iron


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## WackyWabbitRacer (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (Ryan9118)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan9118* »_ So what about the EH-code 1.5 liter? Same bore as the 1.6 and 1.7 liters (79.5), just a shorter stroke (73.4 compared to 80.0 in the 1.6 and 86.4 in the 1.7). Obviously shorter stroke is the way to go for high-revs, correct? 

You are correct that a 1.5L (1457cc) engine likes to rev due to the short stroke.
However the crankshaft is a "cast unit" that is not fully counter-weighted. 
I had a 1457cc crankshaft with a small crack at one of the journal shoulders and fortunately I found it after a teardown of the engine. One more race and the block would have had a large hole in it. And this engine was a balanced SCCA ITC unit.
Consequently the 1457cc crankshaft is not a good choice for a short stroke, high output engine. 
Cheers, WWR.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (WackyWabbitRacer)*

While were on an interesting topic of science, Can some one tell me how much air the engine needs to breath to make 200 n/a HP?
Like to make 200 HP with a 4 cylinder engine n/a you need to flow 190 cfm.
figuring you have fuel also..
And how to calculate this ?


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (ny_fam)*

Generally, for every 1 cfm @ 28" w.c. a head flows on a flowbench, a well built racing engine will make about 1.1 to 1.2 hp but there are other variables involved as well so it's not a hard and fast rule.


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## Ryan9118 (Sep 14, 2005)

*Re: (WackyWabbitRacer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WackyWabbitRacer* »_You are correct that a 1.5L (1457cc) engine likes to rev due to the short stroke.
However the crankshaft is a "cast unit" that is not fully counter-weighted. 
I had a 1457cc crankshaft with a small crack at one of the journal shoulders and fortunately I found it after a teardown of the engine. One more race and the block would have had a large hole in it. And this engine was a balanced SCCA ITC unit.
Consequently the 1457cc crankshaft is not a good choice for a short stroke, high output engine. 
Cheers, WWR.

Thanks for the insight WWR. You're always helpful.
Do you have any experience with the 1.6L solid lifter motors? I see those have a shorter stroke than the 1.8's, and only 1.5mm less bore. Could the 1.6 be bored out 1.5mm's to use the 1.8 pistons, or would the cylinder walls be too thin? Would you prefer building the engine on carbs or fuel-injection? I'd imagine fuel-injection would be a lot cheaper, and possibly simpler, but I'm not an experienced engine builder by any means. Oh and BTW, how many revs are the solid lifter heads good for?


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

The 1.6L block can be bored out to 82.0mm.


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## machschnelGTI (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*

I had an 8V motor in the race car for 2 seasons. I ran a 1.8 16V bottom end with a worked JH head on it and a 306TT cam, lightweight trick valvetrain, lightened crank, long tube header, and Weber 48s. It ended up being about 14.8:1 compression and I reved it over 9K on a regular basis, and sometimes I'd stretch it to 10 or a little more in 5th as needed.....I was using a 5.08 final drive in a 9A box, so I needed the RPMs. It didn't make much power over about 8800. I was using stock rods with ARP hardware....never had a problem. 
Now, for the 8V vs 16V topic. I was all about 8Vs till I reached that point....the one where every additional horsepower ends up costing you about $500. Then I took that $500 and built myself a 16V head to slap on the 16V bottom end that was already in the car. I did a quickie port job, lapped the valves, threw some TT 288 cams in it with TI retainers, jetted up 2 sizes and it runs like a raped ape. 8Vs are good motors and can make gobs of power, don't get me wrong, but those who stay with an 8V when in search of ultimate horsepower are beating a dead horse, so to speak. 16V ports are larger, the valves cover more surface area, and therefor, it will flow more air....more airflow= more power...simple as that. I had my 8V portwalls so thin that when I torqued the head down, it crushed and cracked all the port walls on the intakes. I did another head to a slightly lesser degree so that wouldn't happen again, and I felt that this was as big as one could go with ports. I haven't been to the dyno yet with the 16V to compare, but the difference is night and day, at least a 20 hp increase.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (machschnelGTI)*

Well put Pat.


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## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

better question....
does an ABA head fit on a 1.6 block...what would the compression be, and can you convert an ABA to solid lifter?
(all hypothetical and all, I just have an interesting idea...)


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (dubdaze68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdaze68* »_better question....
does an ABA head fit on a 1.6 block...what would the compression be, and can you convert an ABA to solid lifter?
(all hypothetical and all, I just have an interesting idea...)

It'll fit if you modify the two oil drain holes on the front side of the head.
The ABA has somewhat bigger chambers so the compression would be lower than a stock 1.6L engine, not sure how much but not a lot.
You can convert an ABA to solid lifters, it's not hard to do but it does cost a few bucks.
All that said however, I really don't see any benefit to do all that.



_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 2:25 PM 9-28-2006_


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_

All that said however, I really don't see any benefit to do all that.


I am sure the crossflow design would help to eliminate heat soak from the exhaust manifold (unless 1.6's aren't counterflow







). I am sure that it's not a huge gain, but has to be worth it when your squeezing out every last hp N/A style


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (abawp)*

Actually, that comment was in reference to using a 1.6L block not the crossflow head or solid lifters. A well prepped 2.0L block will rev to at least 9000rpm, the lost of revability using the longer stroke crank would more than be made up for by the added torque and the resulting broader power band.


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Ahh, I see http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: (abawp)*

My query is more based on the crossflow thing, actually, to not run the intake off the back of the block...like getting flat top pistons made and shave the heck off the head, making more compression.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (dubdaze68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdaze68* »_My query is more based on the crossflow thing, actually, to not run the intake off the back of the block...like getting flat top pistons made and shave the heck off the head, making more compression.

I understand that, I'm just saying that if you're going to go through all or the bother and expense, it makes more sense do it to a 1.8L or 2.0L block rather than a 1.6L, unless of course the rule you're racing under require the 1.6.
BTW, THIS is the sort of thing you need to do to the crossflow head to make it fit a 1.6L block, the head in the picture is a 1.8L head so the details are slightly different but you get the idea.


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## tdub785 (Jun 4, 2005)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

this is wat u need


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (tdub785)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdub785* »_this is wat u need









He said high rev-ing not exploding! I'm sure that shiny piece in the upper right will do just that.


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## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (secondgen)*

Especially since it has the shadiest 3 letters in VW-dom on it....


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## 89JettaCoupe (Jan 27, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (dubdaze68)*

This has always been a project on my backburner ever since I saw a cabby with a 11k rpm redline 8V motor in it. From what I've research shrick is the only manufacturer who claims their springs good till 12k rpm in one of our motors. You would want a solid lifter big valve head and a real short stroke, i.e. 1.6L crank or a 1.5L crank... problem with the 1.5L cranks iirc is that they were cast not forged, maybe somebody can correct me on that. Then lighten and balance everything, get some mean side draft carbs... and hope you don't blow anything up


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## WackyWabbitRacer (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (89JettaCoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89JettaCoupe* »_a 1.5L crank... problem with the 1.5L cranks iirc is that they were cast not forged

The 1.5L (1457cc) crankshaft is a "cast unit" that is not fully counter-weighted. 
Consequently the 1457cc crankshaft is not a good choice for a short stroke, high output engine. 
Cheers, WWR.


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## fwdvw (May 12, 2000)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (WackyWabbitRacer)*

WWR, can you share the specs on your little beast? I know you had them listed on a website sometime ago.


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## JediKGB (May 21, 2002)

for high reving...I thought a higher rod ratio was better..... so if this is what everybody is talking about by using the 1.6L blocks and such...why not just take an ABA block and rods (forged preferably i suppose) with an 1.8L crank (which are all forged too) and make a 1.9L thumper. 159mm rods / 86.4 stroke = 1.84 rod ratio...pretty good for the revs....just need a set of custom pistons...


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## zildjianguy (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: (JediKGB)*

sorry to barge in but someone stated earlier about the TDI crank in a aba? if so, where could i find information on that? Are the cranks forged and help give a bigger band? If someone any more information please let me know.


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## JediKGB (May 21, 2002)

the TDI crank is 95.5mm in stroke so you'll need either custom rods and / or custom pistons to go along with it.....
actually u can use the stock rods, just need custom pistons with a compression height of 29.25 you might also need to clearance the block for the longer stroke...


_Modified by JediKGB at 8:57 AM 10-20-2006_


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## Monster8V (Dec 23, 2000)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_Without solid numbers to back that up, I'm just not believing that. I KNOW how hard it is to get 200hp n/a out of an 8v, very few people have done it whereas it's relatively easy with a 16v.


I have seen several 1.6L motors that make in excess of 200 hp but the tq numbers were worse than a Honda! Its just a huge trade off. 
for the last couple years I have road raced with a (stock) ABA short block with a Eurospec head with a Neuspeed 272 cam, extrude hones intake manifold on CIS-E that made 117hp and 119q to the wheels. 
Then last year I had DRS build me the monster 8v head, P&P, 42mm 36mm valves, TT retianers, TT 306 cam that put 126hp to the wheels with the CIS acting up. Im sure it consistently made 130hp to the wheels at the track. (at least thats what my GPS says.) 
NEITHER configuration would rev past 6250rpm with the ABA. Dont get me wrong,. I could rev it to 8K but its not making much power past 6250. So now my next attempt to build an 8v that revs is to use the same head, but build a 1.9L 10-1cr bottom end and go from there. Hopefully the loss of stroke will buld in some revability while retaining the power it had. 
Id like to see 7000 at worse. 7500rpm would be ideal.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Monster8V)*

Hi Shawn,
You don't happen to have dyno's that you could email me (or post up) do you?... I'd love to see what the CIS-E was doing in the afr department... thanks and...
best regards,
Peter Tong


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Monster8V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Monster8V* »_
NEITHER configuration would rev past 6250rpm with the ABA. Dont get me wrong,. I could rev it to 8K but its not making much power past 6250. 

That really surprises me. We've consistantly seen our peak HP in the high 6000's to low 7000's with cams smaller than yours. It seems to me you should be doing better than a 6250 rpm peak with the set-up you described, maybe you're having fueling issues at high rpm,


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## JettaGTI_UK (Aug 20, 2005)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*

Interesting thread guys, I may sound like a total newb, my knowledge of engine tech is limited. Whats the stroke of the Audi 3a, and would it be at all good for this concept? I know it has a shorter stroke than the aba, and uses a larger bore?


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (JettaGTI_UK)*

The 3A and ABA are both 82.5mm bore and 92.8mm stroke. The ABA has a taller block 236mm compared to 220mm so you'll sometimes see it refered to as the "tall block" and the ABA rods are longer, 159mm compared to 144mm.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (ABA Scirocco)*

Forgive my ignorance - What kind of effect do longer rods have on an engine, vs. shorter rods?
Thanks,
Mike.


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

Dwell time of the piston I believe. Shorter rod means longer dwell time, longer rod means shorter dwell time, but I could be wrong.


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## zildjianguy (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (abawp)*

Sorry about this but doesnt a ABA head have better flow then the jh heads? Since the intake manifold and exhaust are opposite?If so wouldnt you have to get the head decked? To match compression of the other heads?


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## JediKGB (May 21, 2002)

nope..thats a myth really....im sure other ppl have number but iirc in the end, they flow within a few cfm of each other


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## zildjianguy (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: (JediKGB)*

So putting a crossflow only makes things easier to work with? Whats the difference in the chambers? Cross vs counter?


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

From what I've seen, Crossflow is much better for turbo setups, as you have more room for the turbo. They're also supposedly better for carb/ITB setups, as they won't be sitting above the hot exhaust manifold and drawing in hot air...
Mike.


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

I run my 1.8 8v to 8K regularly autocrossing.knife edged crank. light flywheel. pauter rods and JE pistons. I didnt want to use stock stuff because I wanted it to last longer. after three seasons I put new bearings in it and it runs better than ever. Of course P&P and big cam. high rev springs and titanium retainers as well.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (epjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *epjetta* »_I run my 1.8 8v to 8K regularly autocrossing.knife edged crank. light flywheel. pauter rods and JE pistons. I didnt want to use stock stuff because I wanted it to last longer. after three seasons I put new bearings in it and it runs better than ever. Of course P&P and big cam. high rev springs and titanium retainers as well.

Very nice. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Counterflow, or crossflow? Solid lifters?
Have you ever dyno'd it to see what the poweraband looks like?
Mike.


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## oldbetsy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

Iam currently converting my xflow to a solid lifter head. When I did a search for myself, I found that some people said not to use the old style vw solid lifters with the shim discs on top of the lifter. Most people recommended the style with the lifter over shim that use lash caps. I also talked to some engine builders and they said the same thing. Also the I heard that the old style discs shims can float and slide out. Dont know how true all of this is but if you are interested give NORSK a im and he can help. Here are some pictures of lifters with lash caps.

















http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2462271


_Modified by oldbetsy at 1:18 PM 10-28-2006_


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Wow, how much does that weigh?


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

JH head. running sidedrafts. I dynoed it a little while ago to get a baseline after installing a new ECU. It made 136whp on a mustang dyno. Ive done a little more tweaking and it feels better. I need to get back and do some tuning on the dyno. I made max power at 7830 rpm. torque curve was almost completeley flat making 90-110 from 2750-7600 peaking at 5130rpm


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (epjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *epjetta* »_JH head. running sidedrafts. I dynoed it a little while ago to get a baseline after installing a new ECU. It made 136whp on a mustang dyno. Ive done a little more tweaking and it feels better. I need to get back and do some tuning on the dyno. I made max power at 7830 rpm. torque curve was almost completeley flat making 90-110 from 2750-7600 peaking at 5130rpm

That sounds like a very fun streetable setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Around stock torque down low, but screaming up top.







I like it!


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Jettaboy1884)*

NO!!! not streetable at all. 13.5:1 CR. runs on 110 octane leaded. this is a pur race motor with horrible characteristics for around town driving. it spools up way faster that my 20x9.5x13 slicks can handle in second gear but it doesnt really drive smoothly with the 36mm chokes in the carbs. it just bucks and sputters anywhere bellow 5000 unless you are working the throttle so the accelerator pump is putting fuel in. great for autocross driving 100%, no fun on the road(I drive to the racetrack about a mile away on the roads). Like I mentioned I installed a new ECU recently and am going to change over to ITBS and fuel injection. I hope to gain alot of those street car caracreristics back. smoother at part throttle making it more drivable, and more powerfull of course.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (WackyWabbitRacer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WackyWabbitRacer* »_
The 1.5L (1457cc) crankshaft is a "cast unit" that is not fully counter-weighted. 
Consequently the 1457cc crankshaft is not a good choice for a short stroke, high output engine. 
Cheers, WWR.


The short stroke 1.5 is a good rever. Chuck has not broken a crank yet, but does get them checked out pretty thoroughly before throwing them onto the lathe.
The real key is cylinder head and cam choice. I highly recommend LR Engineering as a source for this. NOT fast turnaround, as it is a small operation, but great results http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
This one runs on VW injection and turns to 9k, but is another race only high compression affair. Power band is way out of useable autocross range.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (chois)*

That is a nice setup,
If you look closely, you can see that the intake was cut and welded which I assume means it has been ported and polished... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I like the placement of the airbox/fuel dizzy.
Mike.


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

how is the 2.0 as a base for a high rev?
i turn around 7-7400 at the end of straight aways.
i am working on building a 9a w/a jh head.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dirtoval.com* »_how is the 2.0 as a base for a high rev?
i turn around 7-7400 at the end of straight aways.
i am working on building a 9a w/a jh head.


I am running an ABA crossflow on CIS in my Rabbit.
I have a very mild (TT 276*) cam, but I find that it still pulls nicely up to about 7200. At around 7300 I can feel a lot of vibration/rattling which I assume is the lifters floating. (Stock valves, springs, retainers & lifters)
I have a big port and polish, 3-angle valve job, and SRI. But I am running a stock ABA block and valvetrain... I can only imagine how much smoother the top end would be if I did some more work on the internals...
I'm sure that didn't help much, but that's my experience...
Mike.


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## Gans (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (chois)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chois* »_The short stroke 1.5 is a good rever. Chuck has not broken a crank yet, but does get them checked out pretty thoroughly before throwing them onto the lathe.
The real key is cylinder head and cam choice. I highly recommend LR Engineering as a source for this. NOT fast turnaround, as it is a small operation, but great results http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
This one runs on VW injection and turns to 9k, but is another race only high compression affair. Power band is way out of useable autocross range.









do you know what class that dude runs in?


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (Gans)*

isnt it G prod? I know its a production class


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

Yep. That is the SCCA G Production 2006 National Champ


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## 89wolfsburg (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: What do you have to do to make a High-revving 8v? (abawp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abawp* »_Dwell time of the piston I believe. Shorter rod means longer dwell time, longer rod means shorter dwell time, but I could be wrong.

longer rods also:
have less side loading on the piston(decreases cylinder wear)
Improve detonation resitance
increase power potential and efficiency(due to the longer dwell time).


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