# Ram air experiment.



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

thinking outside the box, here I go again.....
So a few months back, I got to thinking what, if any, benefeits there are with ram air induction. We all know that the older Camaro SS had ram air that claimed 15 more hp over the regular Camaro. Not to mention all the old school 1960 + 1970 muscle cars. So I did a little internet research to see what I could find. I found this old motorcycle magazine article. They tested the bikes that had ram air ports against each other on a dyno to test which manufacturer had the best design. They also did some runs with no air blowing into the ram air ports to see what the difference was. Well, turns out they all gained an average of 5-7whp. BUT, the caveat to this was that you need to be literally going over 95mph to get close to 1psi of boost. But the ram air effect begins to take place at around 35mph.
So here I am thinking what I can do. With the placement of my intake manifold and how my plumbing is done, I figured I had plenty of space to do something wild. My first thought was to learn some fiblerglassing skills and fashion a air box and get one of those cheap Ebay hood sccops. Cut a hole through the hood for the scoop and have a psuedo-Shaker Hood set-up. 
Then I came across this little gem while crusising a mustang forum:
















So I cruised over to March's site (known for their pulley kits) and checked it out. Came to the descision that making this type of system work would be cake. It would also be a lot easier than making my own out of fiberglass. Searched around and found a new kit on Ebay (of course) for $99. (regular price is over $150) Bought it today.
Kit comes with a pre-fabbed air box, filter, tube, scoop to go below the bumper and clamps. I'm currently tossing around ideas as to where to put the scoop. Right now, retro-fitting it _into_ the VR lip seems the best spot. I dont want to put it below the lip due to the low pressure created by the aerodynamics of the low front vehicle height. 
This little project should prove interesting. The March Ram Air kit claims "15hp" on the Mustang. The above picture says 30hp, but that is in conjunction with their pulley kit) I doubt I would see that. At the very least, the ram air effect would, or should. reduce pumping losses at higher speeds. That _should_ yield 3-5whp. We'll see. 
Stay tuned. 



_Modified by tdogg74 at 9:51 AM 8-22-2007_


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

travis...are you on crack again or just bored!? DOOO EETTTT!!!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

...bored. 
Oh, and you should see what Im currently doing with the exhaust vacuum flapper from an Audi S4 muffler.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_...bored. 
Oh, and you should see what Im currently doing with the exhaust vacuum flapper from an Audi S4 muffler.








oh yea you should see how i routed my dp on my turbo! ahhaha...and what are you doin with this "flapper"?? what is its original use? Are you really referrering to the 1920s women who publicly acted out against oppression and conformity?


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## ctuagent117 (Oct 4, 2005)

20 bucks says you gain nothing.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

No, no no....The flapper is also on the .:R32. Its to keep the noise down at lower rpms/vehicle speed. On the .:R32, it computer controlled to open up at a certain rpm/speed, but the way Im doing it is to run straight to the manifold. I want to get the car a little more silent cruising around town. Its much too loud right now. You can feel the exhaust pulses 30' behind the car right now. Last two times I got pulled over, I got let off for a warnign for having a modified exhaust.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (ctuagent117)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ctuagent117* »_20 bucks says you gain nothing.

Why, because the intake runners on my manifold aren't big enough?
*ZING*
Seriously though, this is why Im doing it...to see if it works. Before I proved everyone wrong, SRI's werent supposed to work on N/A engines either.


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## doodpod (Apr 27, 2004)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Right now, retro-fitting it _into_ the VR lip seems the best spot. I dont want to put it below the lip due to the low pressure created by the aerodynamics of the low front vehicle height.

What about when it snows? You know, when you _have_ to go somewhere, and they haven't plowed yet?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Wel, I wouldnt be driving anywhere if the snow was that deep anyway. Not worried about that at all. this isnt going to be like a CAI where the filter would be down low. the filter is still in the same location its in now.


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## ctuagent117 (Oct 4, 2005)

USRT had dyno pages on N/A motors..they did well.
if you actually get even more than 3 hp to the CRANK i will yield you King of the 2.0


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (ctuagent117)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ctuagent117* »_USRT had dyno pages on N/A motors..they did well.
if you actually get even more than 3 hp to the CRANK i will yield you King of the 2.0

Scott uses my dyno sheet on his site. 
Dude, the whole purpose of this is to find out if I get more power or not out of it. I planned on going on the dyno again later this year anyway, Ill just run with/without this kit to see what it does. It was only $99...no harm in trying.


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## BlueGTIguy (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Wasn't there an airbath system that worked on a similar principle? It wasn't technically a ram air system, as it was intended to bathe the open element filter with air that was drawn from the bumper region, but the scoop and duct design looked remarkably similar to what you show here. tdogg74, I thought you had the airbath at some point, no?


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Yea, wasnt the Midnight Motorsports just like the Kamei bumper ducts with a hose that ran up to the stock air box? I guess the March kit would be the same principle, but with a much larger scoop and hose.


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (tdogg74)*

The idea behind it is somewhat common in the MK4 forum. They gut out the OEM airbox and they put a 3" pipe from the bottom of the airbox to the bumper air scoop:








Of course, they bore out the opening on the scoop so that it will allow more air to "ram in".


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

...I see this post turning into a run-a-way train very shortly. lol


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

This has been done quite a bit with VR6 engines in many different configurations, I find it hard to belive that 2.0L engines have not already exhausted all of the options. Midknight Motorsports actually offered a kit for quite some time similar to the set up shown on the Mustang. Why not look for somethng that hasn't been exploited yet, like using the pressure area created off the cowl or something...

_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Before I proved everyone wrong, SRI's werent supposed to work on N/A engines either. 

I don't think ou really proved anyone wrong as other make/models have utilized that type of manifold with excellent results for years. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I was actually thinking about the cowl/raintray area. I wasnt sure if it would be as efficient as the front of the car or not. Any insight?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

It's worth solid effort to try something. I would love to see it done as pulling from the front lip have been done and proven worthy. I don't have a running car right now to try it myself.
As for insight, I was talking with Scott Mohler back a few years ago, they made a noticeable amount of power with the addition of cowl induction and or using that low pressure area. Granted, it's a higher 130+ MPH all out drag car, still it peaked my interest back then but never had the chance to try anything.
They used a full cowl hood though, the underside of the cowl was shrouded off to feed right to the intakes.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I'm searching for anything technical on cowl induction right now...not having much luck. Seema like it would be worth trying though.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Really? Cowl induction has been around forever, look towards domestic.
It would be pretty easy to configure on an A3, lose the hood gasket and rain tray, that right there give you a little room to work with ( I ran it like that anyway). If you put spacers on the hinges that will raise the back of the hood and give you even more room as well.
It's good enough for testing without having to cut anything until it warrant's doing so.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

There are a million links to cowl induction HOODS. Im trying to weed through that ****. Im looking for good techinical info...how far from the hood, how high, blah blah blah. 
Oh, and my eyes KILL from the morons who make black web pages with white font.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Search cowl pressure, cowl pressure, pressure area, maybe that will get you passed the hoods. I've got all this crap bookmarked at home somewhere, I looked into this for quite a while and had plans for the old VR6.
Also, if you lose your wiper motor for testing you could pull an intake right off there using a panel filter for area/size restrictions rather than a cone type. There are quite a few ways to play with our engine bay.


_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:42 AM 8-23-2007_


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

cow induction sounds interesting. I wouldn't think the area directly behind the hood and in front of the window would be a positive pressure area. Sure it flows, but go under normal airflow, ie in the rain tray, I don't know. I'm talking out of my ass. Sounds like a cool idea though. If it proves benefitial, I might try something similar on my project car.
moo


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

Well, if I did it I would have the filter exposed, not hidden, basically be track only.
Something to think about is duplicating that kind of atmoshpere condition on the dyno for proof to everyone. I myself am a 1/4 mile whore, I have no problems making endless amount of consistant passes for my own personal testing. That would justify my results, positive or negative... those results wouldn't fly with the masses.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I have access to a dyno, so that isnt a concern.








that is kinda backwards though....


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_I have access to a dyno, so that isnt a concern.

Not access to a dyno being an issue...
creating air flow at a rate to simulate the exact driving conditions.
This might be something that only creates a benifit at a certain rate, like cutting holes in your bumper on a drag car... not going to do much for a 90mhp trap, but 140mhp trap, different story.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

True.
KTR has two, how do I put it, ****ing HUGE fans, pluse smaller ones as well. I understand what you are saying about the need air speed. In that motorcycle article i eluded to on my first post, they had to use a tank of compressed air to simulate the air velocity needed. Im sure even those fans will be insufficent, but if it show any gain, I think it can be safely said to produce more in real/world situations. Like hiway speeds, ect.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Good deal. Well, that's enough from me on this, you've got your work ahead of you to get it sorted out. If nothing comes of it I am sure I will have a go at it if I keep with this current build/project.


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## BlueGTIguy (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_








that is kinda backwards though....

What's backwards? The rotating arrows, or the fact that someone used a PoonTang cruiser for the example?


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## dvlax40 (Jan 17, 2006)

haha tdoog i like how he was all like yeah on their website it says it makes gains, and your all like yeah.. i kno, i was the dyno test car haha, yeah it will be interesting to se, you should gain something, if nothing more then colder air being pushed into the engine bay from the scoop


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Honestly, if it only equalized manifold pressure and reduced pumping losses, I would consider it a success. 
I was looking at the cowl today and the friggin wiper mechanism is right in the way. Im not ready to lose that somewhat important 'luxury'. lol


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## Proulus (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

you need one of these... okay well something a little smaller but still.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (Proulus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Proulus* »_
you need one of these... okay well something a little smaller but still.









You know what? I discovered that if I went the hood scoop route, that I would _need_ a scoop that tall! Scoops that are low to the hood line do absolutely nothing because of the aerodynamic airflow 'hop' over the bumper/grille section. You ned something like 4" off the hood line to catch the air flow.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

FYI the area in the grill between the headlight and bumper is a high pressure area as well, Dinan uses it for pressurizing their E46 intake.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

yea, i need to see how big the scoop in the kit is. I might be able to squeeze it in there. We'll see. 
Isnt this thread entertaining, Mendra?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

If you back out of the cowl, why not just re-route your intake piping to the front of the car with a velocity stack out in the air stream? That would dirt cheap to toy with and is yeat another thing that has been done over and over with good results.
Run it with your head light out for testing, once proven make permanent changes. My car always ran the best at the track like I mentioned above. The only alternative to matching that was the Turn2 intake, that came within thousands in performance and I had less to dismantel at the track.
With the T2 I did have the AC parts and charcoal canister removed so the damn filter could actually have a fighting chance for air. I always removed all the bumper markers when I ran it to aid in feeding the filter as well.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 11:18 AM 8-23-2007_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
You know what? I discovered that if I went the hood scoop route, that I would _need_ a scoop that tall! Scoops that are low to the hood line do absolutely nothing because of the aerodynamic airflow 'hop' over the bumper/grille section. You ned something like 4" off the hood line to catch the air flow. 

Just like your search post says, belive me, it's already been done!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

That. Is. AWESOME.
No way I could get away with that though.....lol
So after some research, it seems the greatest high pressure spot would be in the lower grille area immediately above the lip. I'm still going to look into the cowl area once the kit arrives though. From 6" before the windshield to about half-way up the windshield is the greatest high pressure spot. Of course i would ne to rig up some sort of overhang for the kit's scoop to catch said high pressure spot. 
I dont know...I'll figure something out.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Some more...
Chris P. velocity stack - mid/headlight...








Chris A. velocity stack - lower bumper...
Tough to see the inlet bell (red MK2), but this is the only picture I can find right now, you get the idea.











_Modified by billyVR6 at 3:37 PM 8-23-2007_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Isnt this thread entertaining, Mendra?









It shouldn't be funny. I've been telling to him build an air dam off the grille to feed the throttles for a year or so now. Actually, I've told him to lose the ITB's all together, but that's another story...


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_
It shouldn't be funny. I've been telling to him build an air dam off the grille to feed the throttles for a year or so now. 

Air dam is coming.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

If you are still interested in Cowl induction, look at the 67,68 and 69' Camaro SS as well as the Chevelle SS of that era.
I used to have a '69 Camaro with the setup. The bump in the hood is designed to increase the pressure in the cowl area (and also provided a tunnel back to the air filter assy (all pressure sealed). They also had a simple vacuum actuated Flap in the back.
S


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Scoops that are low to the hood line do absolutely nothing because of the aerodynamic airflow 'hop' over the bumper/grille section. You ned something like 4" off the hood line to catch the air flow. 

That that is 100% accurate. This depends a lot on the design of the car. Front fascia aerodynamics and hood curvature, windshield placement and placement of the scoop itself (fore or aft on the hood). Placing a hood scoop, too far forward would likely see low pressure due to boundary layer separation over the front of the car. ...too far back could as well. A taller scoop would ensure you are in the "flow", but certainly practicality is always a consideration








I would venture to guess that a good Aero design has a decent down force near the mid of the hood. At some point after that, you would want the air stream to separate to make it over the windshield instead of colliding with it.
This is just my "on the beach assessment".
Shawn


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfGTI* »_
Air dam is coming.









FWIW, that's where I would be placing mine


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (sdezego)*

I would stick the intake right where the upper part of the grill and hood meet. Otherwise in the area where the windshield meets the raintray area...


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## Zorba2.0 (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

Anyone have access to a wind tunnnel that they could see where the money spots are for pressure?


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_I would stick the intake right where the upper part of the grill and hood meet. 

Hmmmm, that's right where the MKIV has an inlet. Unfortunately, the air has quite an obstacle course to get to the filter box. The MKIV "kit car" has a nice big scoop right behind the top of the grill. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (Zorba2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zorba2.0* »_Anyone have access to a wind tunnnel that they could see where the money spots are for pressure?

ya, but it will cost you about $200,000 a day.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Zorba2.0)*

Hi Zorba,
With the earlier cars some of the VW engineers published data in SAE journal. Thats how I definitely know where the good areas are on the Rabbit at least (and the Golf 2 should be very similar). Since they are the same basic shape it should apply at least somewhat with the mk3. The air hits that bumper and takes an upwards or downwards turn, and you'll see that in the angle of the slats for the radiator inlets as well...
Peter


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (at_the_speed_of_2.l0w)*


_Quote, originally posted by *at_the_speed_of_2.l0w* »_
Hmmmm, that's right where the MKIV has an inlet. Unfortunately, the air has quite an obstacle course to get to the filter box. The MKIV "kit car" has a nice big scoop right behind the top of the grill. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I highly doubt they are doing it for any kind of major ram air effect... effectively its just a cold air intake for us, since we have no autobahns here...


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

I think it should be mentioned that with a propper ram air style intake, you could achieve as much as 1-3psi manifold pressure. That's significant... and in the mag article that travis has cited, they observed as much as a 8% increase in power with a ram air induction setup.
The place where we have discussed putting it, down in the lower vent area, is a high pressure zone, and lowered like he is with a VR lip, even moreso.
That's why it's an ideal location for an intercooler or oil cooler.
I think he could see at least a couple hp increase at freeway speed, but around town, it's nothing more than a cold air intake. That said, it's going to be very difficult to measure the increase on a static dyno, since the air pressure on the front of the car will be minimal, those cooling fans just don't pack the punch needed to acurately reproduce the wind velocity at freeway speed. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_
I highly doubt they are doing it for any kind of major ram air effect... effectively its just a cold air intake for us, since we have no autobahns here...

There's no question of that. I simply mentioned it out of interest. The area is already known to be a high pressure zone and the engineers at VWMS have taken advantage of that.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (at_the_speed_of_2.l0w)*


_Quote, originally posted by *at_the_speed_of_2.l0w* »_









That's ****ing dope!


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I would like to see a dyno of that engine. My TPI vette runs out of steam by 5000 rpm, and I think the runners are shorter than that engines.


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

4-Cylinder 2.0 Liter 5V Motor,
Built according to DTC Regulations
Power: ca. 220 PS (217HP)
Max. RPM: 8750 R/min


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Im interested in _any_ details about that intake and air box.....


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

From the VW Racing DTM catalog...
Air intake - G4C 129 608
Airbox - G4C 129 607
Good luck finding any.








It shouldn't be too hard to fab up though...perhaps fiberglass or carbon


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Just a quick update....
Recieved the kit on Friday and played around with it on Sunday. The filter and air box fit PERFECTLY . The hose, which is like 5-6 inches in diameter, fit right down the side and I have the outlet where my lower brake duct is. Unfortunately, I dont think Im going to be able to use the kit's scoop because it just doesnt fit anywhere. If I didnt have the whole intake on the drivers side, I think something could have been worked out, but there is no room on the drivers side and its not designed to be on that side. I might be able to figure something out and modify one of my bumper lips, who knows.
Well, once it was all in place, I took it out for a ride. First thing I noticed was the intake growl all but dissapeared. That is, until I went through a long overpass and hit the loud pedal...you can hear it from the front now instead of through the hood vent. Whatever.
Got it on the hiway. Acceleration hasnt really seemed to have changed. But then again, my butt dyno isnt that sensitive. Dropping it to third doing 65 and bringing it up to speed is as quick as ever though. That rev limiter come fast. No complaints there. 
I have a friend that is loaning me a spare boost controller. Im going to hook that up and do some testing to see how much its really charging the manifold...if at all. The boost gauge will tell me if anything is happening. I might need to relocate the intake tunnel to a different spot. (which is going to be a challenge).
Ill take pics when I get a chance.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Also, Im currently looking for an inexpinsive splitter for the lip. Seems like it would be a HUGE benefeit.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Recieved the kit on Friday...

What kit did you order?
Was it one of the first one that you mentioned or that VWMS air box set up?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I got the March kit. Its a realy NICE kit. The inside of the air box is nice and smooth. The filter is a K&N (wish my old filter fit). The biggest PIA is routing the hose....its HUGE. Plus there is not much room to work with, so Im really going to have to get crafty with the scoop that came with it.


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Also, Im currently looking for an inexpinsive splitter for the lip. Seems like it would be a HUGE benefeit.

for testing reasons you could pick up some plexiglass from a lowes/ home depot and fab one up.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (bugasm99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bugasm99* »_
for testing reasons you could pick up some plexiglass from a lowes/ home depot and fab one up.

Yep, thats what I was thinking too! I was looking online. and they aqre all over $180....PLUS shipping.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

http://www.estreetplastics.com/
these guys seem pretty cheap. Not sure how thick it would need to be. Looks like you can get a custom sheet made too.


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## BlueGTIguy (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

Fabricator's dream:
http://www.mcmaster.com/


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (BlueGTIguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueGTIguy* »_Fabricator's dream:
http://www.mcmaster.com/

bookmarked!


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## yippy-skippy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (tdogg74)*

That thing looks horrible.







Put a USRT on it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (yippy-skippy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yippy-skippy* »_That thing looks horrible.







Put a USRT on it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

idiot.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
idiot.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
idiot.

wow, the gloves are off, eh>


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## vasillalov (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (ABF Jeff)*

Its interesting to see that the VWMS airbox *looks* just as big and as deep as the MK4 airbox. Of course, we have that labyrinth of intake tubing connected to it...


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (vasillalov)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vasillalov* »_Its interesting to see that the VWMS airbox *looks* just as big and as deep as the MK4 airbox. Of course, we have that labyrinth of intake tubing connected to it...

including an ugly car.


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Ram air experiment. (ABF Jeff)*

I've been watching this thread for awhile soaking up the information, I just found a pretty good deal on the the old Midknight Motorsports scoop which bolts up to the back of the front lip and requires cutting it to allow air in. These came in two flavors the "Ice Box" which bolted up to the stock box and the "Air Bath" which works like the system Travis is trying to use. The one for sale only has the lower scoop and ducting.
If if I were to pick this sccop up could it be fed into my stock air box with its side cut open (long ago did the cut open and K&N mod) and just feed the ducting to the filter? Or would it be more beneficial to get an unmolested stock air box bottom and only cut an opening for the ducting feeding in? I only ask because most of these systems seem to be designed to only take air from the scoop/tube feeding air in. Which makes sense since its a direct line to the coldest air possible, but would seem to be a resriction if not at higher speeds.
Then again I'm certainly no engineer, otherwise why would I be asking this in the first place.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

While on the same concept, the MM Airbath's hose from the front bumper to the air box is about 1/4 the size it needs to be. You arent goiong to get much air flow in through that hose to the box. With the hose diameter that small, you're just feeding it ambiant temp air.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

So I got to take it for a ride this morning on the hiway again (finally). Again, feels good, but its 50* with no humidity today. Car LOVES this weather!
Anyway, took a couple pics.....
Shot looking down. You can see where I routed the hose. 








Closer shot of the hose....








And here is where I currently have it routed to. (kinda hard to see)


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

I see what you're talking about whats the diameter on that tubing?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

5"


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

You're going to want to get that intake tube out into the air.
Lose that brake duct/cover thing.
For testing why didn't you just go get some 3" piping with an inlet bell and run it straight to the MAF. That would be damn cheap and let you know pretty fast on what you are dealing with.


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Interesting, as I'm leafing through the tomes of ancient Vortex threads Myron from MKM seemed to assert that the 3" tubing was the smallest he would go to get adequate flow in his research. There's lots of testimonials runing around on it to back it up, but then again the 'placebo effect' could very well be in play there.
Obviously the MKM kit is 2/3 the diameter you're using, so how did you come up with 5" as the prime size? Or is that just what came with the mustang kit?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Its what came with the kit.


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Back to one of my original questions (issues of diameter asde) would it be better to run a ram air kit tubing feed into the open side of a cut box or obtain an unmolested OEM airbox bottom?
By the looks of all the systems a closed system thats only getting air from the scoop inlet would be most ideal as it gives the ram air effect at high speeds and acts as a cold air pickup when at lower speeds. But if I don't have to obtain a new bottom box it'd be great but it still seems like its picking up trace warm air, since the cut section is still in the enginebay even though the main inlet is faced away from the engine. While the feed line from the scoop would have to be almost on top of the filter to get any effect.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

>.< that thing is U G L Y and it dont got no alibi...
but it regards to your question... smaller pressure chamber is better (keeps velocity of the air up)
so use the one you have...


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_>.< that thing is U G L Y and it dont got no alibi...
but it regards to your question... smaller pressure chamber is better (keeps velocity of the air up)
so use the one you have...

wHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (Neckromacr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Neckromacr* »_Back to one of my original questions (issues of diameter asde) would it be better to run a ram air kit tubing feed into the open side of a cut box or obtain an unmolested OEM airbox bottom?

whichever one is smaller (but larger than the intake hose)


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: (potatonet)*

in other words the giant 8"x10" hole cut in the side of my box would be a bad thing and it'd be ideal to get an unmolested air box bottom and fit the tube either to the snorkle and/or cut out a section for just the hose.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (Neckromacr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Neckromacr* »_in other words the giant 8"x10" hole cut in the side of my box would be a bad thing and it'd be ideal to get an unmolested air box bottom and fit the tube either to the snorkle and/or cut out a section for just the hose.

Correct.
The bigger the hose, THE BETTER. Seriously, go to Home Depot, and get the biggest hose you can find (try to stay away from that metal dryer hose, it tears REAL easy). Seal up the pre-existing holes in the new air box, and cut an opening to the same size as the hose you procured. Then seal it up so no air leaks out. Run that hose down to the lower bumper vent.
You want the biggest diameter hose so the air flows unrestricted into the airbox. Smaller hoses wont allow as much into the airbox. Port velocity has nothing to do with this...you want the air to ram in their as easy as possible...and the larger diameter hose allows that to happen.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

ram air systems normally only work if the intake system is very short...


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (potatonet)*

And you base that statement off of what?


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

It would seem to reason that if you're at speed the pressure coming is kept reletively constant thus the ammount of tubing would not matter. I was just out looking at my car, would it be feasable to rig an inlet scoop just under the passenger headlight if you're using the stock airbox? Its a direct port into the fornt snorkle hole.
The downsides look to be having to cut away part of your grill, an AC line in the way (mine is coming out soon anyway), and it may be a bit shallow height wise with out doing some fabbing to the front bumper.
But it works just like those headlight velocity stacks pictured earlier, but with a more streetable application.
That or you could get a Hella Dual Round setup and poke out the high beam.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Headlight would be an ideal spot, but Im trying to figure all this out reamining as stock looking as possible. Cant pass inspection with one high beam lamp, ya know?
So far, the best place I have see is the lower vents with the aid of a splitter. That is the area of highest pressure at speed.


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## Neckromacr (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

I was actually kidding about the highbeam part, but I was realisticly looking at the area where the grill sits just under the headlight.
But I was also thinking of the high pressure areas you had highlighted earlier.
I'm still curious as to where you got your numbers that 5" tubing is the minimum required for a difference, it sounds like an echo of what Myron at MKM said about the 3" tubing years ago. Obviously the bigger the inlet the larger the inlet the more high pressure air being routed in to the intake.
I feel a trip to Home depot coming up.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

off of the fact that more changes in direction = slower air... more changes = longer system = slower air.....
you do lose air velocity over distance as the walls of intake systems create "zero velocity" zones taking more air to charge the system and keep the "zero velocity" boundary area. Larger tube = larger surface area = more air required to create and keep "zero velocity area" = slower air.
there is an optimum size for all ram air applications, bigger isnt always the best... because after a point its not a ram air system your TB and motor can only take as much as it needs


_Modified by potatonet at 11:00 PM 9-6-2007_


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

**UPDATE**
Finally got a boost gauge and put it in last night. I'll report back later on what i find.


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Ok i haven't been avidly following this, so could you breifly explain the boost gauge?
Are you just looking to build 1psi or something? 
As far as driving around with it already installed, can you tell any difference? I think i'm gonna try this this weekend!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (reynolds9000)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reynolds9000* »_Ok i haven't been avidly following this, so could you breifly explain the boost gauge?
Are you just looking to build 1psi or something? 

The gauge will tell me two things:
What the manifold pressure is with just a cone filter in the engine bay at WOT at hiway speed. Then Ill hook everything back up, and re-run it and see if the needle has moved. Plus, this will enable me to see if any location moves, or aerodynamic changes to the front end effect manifold pressure. Its the only to know for sure if this whole thing works or not. _If_ I end up with anything + zero on the gauge, it works.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

WOT vacuum will be 0
you need a larger intake manifold in order to move the needle...
its like a computer... its only gonna work as fast as its slowest part.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote »_WOT vacuum will be 0 
 
No ****. It's the WHOLE reason why Im ****ing around with the whole ram-air thing in the first place....I want to see if I can get it PAST Zero.









_Quote »_You need a larger intake manifold in order to move the needle...

Like, ONE OF THESE?!?!?











_Modified by tdogg74 at 1:49 PM 9-14-2007_


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

If your taking manifold pressure readings...
better take note of what the barometric pressure is reading at that moment in time as well.
I have an old guage out of my dad's dragster cluster that reads this pressure. It was a great thing to have, especially when I was bracket racing a lot. It was very interesting to see it change and watch the results as the night/day went on.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Baro, humidity, and I also carry around a little thermocouple to check the track temp... since the in-ground ones don't usually tell you what the surface temp is, only the asphault temp an inch down... And I can't afford an IR gun.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_If your taking manifold pressure readings...
better take note of what the barometric pressure is reading at that moment in time as well.

School me Billy. What's all that mean in terms of what I am trying to accomplish. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
School me *Jeff*. What's all that mean in terms of what I am trying to accomplish. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABF Jeff* »_









dont get pissy...I didnt see your post till after.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Wow, that's all I have to say...
tdogg74, better just listen to your buddy.
I am sure he will set your straight.
Don't bother listening to me, rumor has it I talk down on and bash 2.0L ABA engines.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Billy...still waiting for an answer.
Jeff dont bitch unless you plan on actually answering my question.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_Wow, that's all I have to say...
tdogg74, better just listen to your buddy.
I am sure he will set your straight.
Don't bother listening to me, rumor has it I talk down on and bash 2.0L ABA engines.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Wow, dude, it was just a joke.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Billy...still waiting for an answer.
Jeff dont bitch unless you plan on actually answering my question.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Billy...still waiting for an answer.
Jeff dont bitch unless you plan on actually answering my question. 

http://www.racecarbook.com/art...shtml
A little light reading... gives you everything you need to know. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## quiksilver6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*

(to tdogg74) dude i got an old ****ty chrysler for free a few years ago with a 2.5 4 cyl. i did that same ram air thing to it just to *** around and i actually noticed a diff.







and all i used was alluminum furnace sht haha. 
but anyways thats cool you're making a nice one for the dub.


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## dvlax40 (Jan 17, 2006)

stop **** ing a round travis and being a big poon.. put a 288 cam inn and give that car some balls


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (dvlax40)*

yes like one of those manifolds...
good luck getting into boost zone without forced air http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
you might just want to weld a venturi onto the front of that manifold and cut out your grille. thats your best chance.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (potatonet)*

it's easier to maintain a positive charge on a larger air volume than on a smaller one.


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*

why is that?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*

What part was a joke?
The quote edit move on page 3 of this topic...
or the stupid BS you tried pulling on me a while back?


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## midwestjetta (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

any new word on this travis?
me and a few associates of mine are working on fiberglassing some pieces like the vwms ones shown back a few pages, im going to move the battery to the back and see if i ca maybe even create a whole box for the filter and have the cowls leading to it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (midwestjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *midwestjetta* »_any new word on this travis?
me and a few associates of mine are working on fiberglassing some pieces like the vwms ones shown back a few pages, im going to move the battery to the back and see if i ca maybe even create a whole box for the filter and have the cowls leading to it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Nothing new Matt. I've had the vaccume/boost gauge hooked up for a while now and have yet to see anything past 0 on the gauge. Right now its money and time keeping me from doing anything worth while. The opening in my bumper has to be opened up and have something molded to the opening of the 5" hose as well as I need a splitter for the bottom of the VR lip. Shoot me a PM, and we can discuss your project further.....If you're good with glass, maybe you can help me out and do me a favor.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

sad to see you not make it out to h2o with your other brokestatus buddies trav! woulda loved to meet ya!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (the_q_jet)*

ya, Im really dissapointed I couldnt go. But, family>car sh*t.


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## midwestjetta (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
Nothing new Matt. I've had the vaccume/boost gauge hooked up for a while now and have yet to see anything past 0 on the gauge. Right now its money and time keeping me from doing anything worth while. The opening in my bumper has to be opened up and have something molded to the opening of the 5" hose as well as I need a splitter for the bottom of the VR lip. Shoot me a PM, and we can discuss your project further.....If you're good with glass, maybe you can help me out and do me a favor.









yeah, were going to pick up some fiberglass next time im home for a while (probably thanksgiving)
and try and throw something together, maybe ill try and throw some of my ideas up here with a drawing or two
if you like it, or think you can improve it after we make one, id def be up for making one and sending it your way, who knows, if it works/people likes it, i could be down for producing them http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

conversation moved to PM


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## dvlax40 (Jan 17, 2006)

you ******


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (dvlax40)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dvlax40* »_you ******

*?*


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## dvlax40 (Jan 17, 2006)

i dunno whay they bleeped out sexyman


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## twicepardoned (May 2, 2006)

when is h2o anyway?


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