# VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

This is an all things equal and here is my goal kind of question.
Set up:
9:1 compression
3" turbo back, no cat (installing next week)
#42 Green Tops
C2 #42 Software
FMIC with 2.5" piping
ATP cast manifold
Tial 50mm BOV
Tial 38mm WG
TurboXs 2 stage MBC
4" intake pipe/MAF housing
Flipside Customs SRI
Snow Performance Progressive A/W Injection (installing next week)
I plan on a .70 a/r compressor and I am looking for a maximum flow of 65lbs/min.
I have spent quite a lot of time looking at compressor maps and comparing them over and over again. I would like to achieve close to 450whp, but more important to me I would like a low starting, smooth, fast spooling hotside that allows a constant pull all the way through redline. I understand a well tuned EBC will help control this power curve and allow for more control through the pedal as well.
I currently have a dual resonator TT SS 2.5" exhaust with the stock cat mated to a 3" SS DP and a T3 (.82) 60-1 and do not have the A/W installed. I usually run a low of 12psi and a high of 17psi with a spike around 19psi. The turbo has a flow rate of 61lb/min and has a decent spool, but if I read my maps right I am close to pushing the turbo past it's peak efficiency levels and won't make much more than 400whp. 
I realize the meth will assist in engine cooling and will allow more boost to be run in a safer environment. I imagine the 3" catless exhaust will allow a faster spool from the start. The two turbos I have been contemplating are the T3/GT40 and the T4/GT40 found on cheapturbo.com. In the event that the T3 is a better choice is the ball bearing worth the extra $400 for a GT35R?
So given the above mentioned set-up which turbine/turbo will spool to full first, to full boost and through redline?


----------



## beauvrt2 (Feb 7, 2009)

Your question is more like two questions anyways go with the T04. I had a GT3076R and even though these turbo can produce up to 450whp on a Evo that has a high volumetric efficiency it doesnt always work out that way and I know your T3 60-1 is not the same as a 30R but close enough point is you will be pushing hard to see 450whp. A couple more things to think about is the 440cc injectors run out of juice around 20psi on a turbo that size. So you might be doomed from the start and I would go with a T04 family DBB turbo for what you are looking for that will give you the quick spool and will for sure pull to redline. Also I ran into this same problem and have already worked through it hopefully you can save some cash and get what you need the first time around. p.s. Check out my thread.


----------



## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (Road_Ralley)*

i would get either a .69 or a .81 T4 exhaust housing for a vr6 engine... but that just me...


----------



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (PjS860ct)*


_Quote, originally posted by *beauvrt2* »_Your question is more like two questions anyways go with the T04. I had a GT3076R and even though these turbo can produce up to 450whp on a Evo that has a high volumetric efficiency it doesnt always work out that way and I know your T3 60-1 is not the same as a 30R but close enough point is you will be pushing hard to see 450whp. A couple more things to think about is the 440cc injectors run out of juice around 20psi on a turbo that size. So you might be doomed from the start and I would go with a T04 family DBB turbo for what you are looking for that will give you the quick spool and will for sure pull to redline. Also I ran into this same problem and have already worked through it hopefully you can save some cash and get what you need the first time around. p.s. Check out my thread.

Thanks, I forgot to mention I am looking for room to grow in the future and have my eye on the C2 630 software. 


_Quote, originally posted by *PjS860ct* »_i would get either a .69 or a .81 T4 exhaust housing for a vr6 engine... but that just me...









If I have a T3, which is smaller, and I want a faster spool I would think the T4 .82 housing that is available would defeat this intent, but give me a better top end. The .63 is the only smaller size available.


----------



## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (Road_Ralley)*

.63 is for a 4 cylinder engines... it will just spin, aka torque spike and wont hold power to redline... i have the .69T4 ex-housing on my vrt and i see 1psi by 2500 and full boost (18psi) by 3400-3500... and with my old turbo i saw full boost by 4200 and it pulls very hard to redline. and acts as traction control ... just my experience 
.82 at a minimum 
well your choice... your car but i bet you will upgrade that .63 ex housing cus you cant get traction on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd on normal driving... and not even at WOT and at high boost the turbo/engine will basically choke


----------



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (PjS860ct)*

This is a dyno sheet from .58 T4/GT40 journal bearing with a 2.5" TT SS exhaust, C2 #42, 8.5:1 and a stock intake manifold.









I have ridden and driven the car. It does spool fast, sometimes with traction issues depending on the tires, and there doesn't seem to be any end to the powerband (the dyno tops off at 6800rpm's). I figured go with a .63 to give a little bit of room for traction. So am I missing something here? .63 doesn't seem too small and isn't a .82 T3 going to spool quicker than a .82 T4?


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (Road_Ralley)*

I have a T4 .69 and I've been in a car w/ a T3 .82 and thought they were pretty similar.
T4 .69 is a nice compromise between a usable street powerband and something that also will pull hard up top. I see full boost (10 psi)depending on gear from ~3500-4000 rpm.
I was not a fan of a t3 .63 for 10psi or over. Spools too quick and down low. Alot of wheelspin.


----------



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (slc92)*

The reason I was thinking a .63 T4 is Garrett supposedly has it available for custom order on the GT3588R.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...8.htm
If you read the bottom line of the page it says it is offered in a T4 .63 and .82. I feel a .82 wouldn't give me the spool I am looking for. The other turbo I really had my eye on was this one in a .68 v-band.
http://www.nipponpower.com/product.phtml?p=826
I haven't been too impressed with their customer service. I simply asked if this was a genuine Garrett (as the sales rep I inquired through Garrett with about said turbo said it wasn't, but in a way that made it seem like he just wanted me to buy from him) turbo and if the .68 A/R was definitely available with a v-band outlet. It took 6 e-mail exchanges over 5 days to confirm this. Their prices seemed a bit high over cheapturbo.com.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VRT Turbines: T04 .63 Vs. T3 .82 (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
I was not a fan of a t3 .63 for 10psi or over. Spools too quick and down low. Alot of wheelspin.

i can attest to that. 
im looking into getting the .82 hotside. 
but the budget took a crap in my state and they are cutting teachers. i am one of them.


----------



## beauvrt2 (Feb 7, 2009)

My GT30R is a .82 T3 and I saw a full 10psi around 3000 rpm and it would pull pretty good through 7000 rpm. But agin to quick of a spool to low. The car just spun the whole time. I dont know, you said you wanted room to grow and possibly rock the 630 software I would not go with the smallest AR. on a T3 or T4. It is FWD you are going to see problems you might as well get the power with a big turbo and flow rate and maybe gain some low end traction. I just went through this ordeal trust me. Go at least T4 .82 it will spool just fine especially a dual ball bearing R series turbo.


----------



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: (beauvrt2)*

I would never dream of putting a .63 T3 on there, as most said it will just spin. I was only interested in the possibility of a T4 .63. If I like My T3 .82's spooling capability, but want something slightly faster. Since a T4 is bigger than a T3 housing of equal A/R specs isn't it going to spool slower but deliver a higher top end? 
My Current T3 .82 experience only involves a 2.5" dual resonated TT SS exhaust. Am I correct in thinking that if I just put on the 3" turbo back, that only has a Borla muffler, that this will increase my spooling speed? Maybe I would just be happy with a GT35 with a .82 turbine or am I not really gaining anything by only adding a ball bearing set and increasing the maximum flow by 4lbs/min?


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Road_Ralley)*

realize that 'right direction' is a matter of opinion, not fact.
Proper Garrett is T3 only. Gt35R 106 won't quite get you to 600whp on a Vr6 with a 3" exhaust.
Proper = the way Garrett makes them, other are just Garrett parts.
Basically T3 is too small.
Other turbos
suggest: T4 .68 or .81 a/r
.81 T4 is pretty lazy for the street.
suggestions:
GT4088
Precision: Billet 62, Billet 67
less bling: T67, T70
Also to comfortably make 600whp, you want 3.5" or 4" exhaust and .81 T4 hot side... 
it can be done on 3", but not ~simple and easy. (more boost than you'd expect, think low-mid 30's psi boost)
ALL this big power talk is useless until you build a motor.
My opinion:
simply put, the only t3 that should be on a VR is the GT 106 housing.
.82 if you run 15psi or less boost.
.63 never.
The 60-1 compressor will support mid 400's easily with a .68 T4 hot side. Again, don't follow the 4cyl guys with large compressor and small turbine sides. Those guys need the high pressure to get the job done.
Get a ride in some cars that have the bigger T4 housings.
-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_realize that 'right direction' is a matter of opinion, not fact.
Proper Garrett is T3 only. Gt35R 106 won't quite get you to 600whp on a Vr6 with a 3" exhaust.
Proper = the way Garrett makes them, other are just Garrett parts.
Basically T3 is too small.
Other turbos
suggest: T4 .68 or .81 a/r
.81 T4 is pretty lazy for the street.
suggestions:
GT4088
Precision: Billet 62, Billet 67
less bling: T67, T70
Also to comfortably make 600whp, you want 3.5" or 4" exhaust and .81 T4 hot side... 
it can be done on 3", but not ~simple and easy. (more boost than you'd expect, think low-mid 30's psi boost)
ALL this big power talk is useless until you build a motor.
My opinion:
simply put, the only t3 that should be on a VR is the GT 106 housing.
.82 if you run 15psi or less boost.
.63 never.
The 60-1 compressor will support mid 400's easily with a .68 T4 hot side. Again, don't follow the 4cyl guys with large compressor and small turbine sides. Those guys need the high pressure to get the job done.
Get a ride in some cars that have the bigger T4 housings.
-Jeffrey Atwood

Why?
When 0.63 make 550whp+ on GT35 and the 0.82 are up to 750Whp on T3
Look at all the horrible dynos posted of the 1.06 on vortex.
Customer is always happy until you show em that they have less power over the entire powerband


----------



## Driverwanted (Nov 9, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

This post is useless without dyno's or compressor maps...








I have seen the Gt35 w/ 1.06 
i would be really interested in seeing what the GT4088 looks like??? does anyone have dynos or info ?
I am having to make the same decision on my build - i plan to start with the C2 630 file.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Customer is always happy until you show em that they have less power over the entire powerband









Why not show us then, Foffa?
PLEASE show us a (2.8-3.2L) VR6 dyno chart over 500whp using a .63 T3 turbine housing. Gasoline fuel maybe....
You must think I post on the vortex just to read my own posts...








For a test: send us a .63 GT35 Housing, we'll swap it with a 106 
and see if your right...
-Jeffrey Atwood



_Modified by Jefnes3 at 8:51 PM 4-15-2009_


----------



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

The Garrett rep says the T4 housing listed on their page for the GT35R is not a housing, just a flange. Doesn't seem very practical to spend $1,200-1,300 just to gain 4lbs of flow. 
I think a 1.06 would not give me the spool I am looking for, but it would deliver more up top.
I think a GT4088 would give me great 500+WHP numbers, but at this point in my adventure I am not looking for a big number with a drawn out spool.
So it looks like I am either going to go with one of these two in a .63-.70 housing.
99% sure this is where the turbo on the dyno chart above came from and is this with a .58
http://cheapturbo.stores.yahoo.net/gat4b.html
or I may go with this if all else fails. 
http://www.nipponpower.com/product.phtml?p=826
I think either will give me what I am looking for until am ready to go with a larger set up and the 630 file.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Why not show us then, Foffa?
PLEASE show us a (2.8-3.2L) VR6 dyno chart over 500whp using a .63 T3 turbine housing. Gasoline fuel maybe....
You must think I post on the vortex just to read my own posts...








For a test: send us a .63 GT35 Housing, we'll swap it with a 106 
and see if your right...
-Jeffrey Atwood


_Modified by Jefnes3 at 8:51 PM 4-15-2009_

Take cabzilla old dyno (pic hosting malfunction) vs chris vr6 old dyno.
There is 50-60whp missing between 3000-5000rpm.
If both my car and tons of 1.8T´s can make 500whp+ on T25 then why go 1.06 on the small 82mm compressor.
Just look at the new 86mm compressorwheel that still use 0.82 T3 and flow 200hp more then the 82mm and still use same turbine wheel


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (foffa2002[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
If both my car and tons of 1.8T´s can make 500whp+ on T25 then why go 1.06 on the small 82mm compressor.


Because you use ~35psi (or more) to get there.
From your own stage 4/5 thread(S) you don't see full boost until ~5000rpm, I see why you think the 106 is too large.
Again:
The smaller turbine housing(s) will not flow enough at the low pressure ratios we use (here) on the street, on a VR6, on pump gas.
Example: 440+whp at 15psi with 106 housing
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4117558

-Jeff


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Because you use ~35psi (or more) to get there.
From your own stage 4/5 thread(S) you don't see full boost until ~5000rpm, I see why you think the 106 is too large.
Again:
The smaller turbine housing(s) will not flow enough at the low pressure ratios we use (here) on the street, on a VR6, on pump gas.
Example: 440+whp at 15psi with 106 housing
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4117558

-Jeff


no i use 28psi peak and 26psi top (1.8bar) 540whp smaller turbo
BUT under 5k is what we speak of now.
Cabzillaz car with your software had a *75WHP *loss vs mine at 4500rpm at same boost.
Mine is a 2.3L ....this show how horrible that 1.06 is even on a 2.8L
400-450whp go with the 0.63
500-650whp go with the 0.82

And yes we made more with 15psi on our car.
smaller engine, smaller compressor wheel , T25 exhaust housing.

Why even bother with 1.06 for 400whp?
That housing flow 800whp
There is no reason to put that on any car with such small power output.
And its also track proven over and over again.



_Modified by [email protected] at 9:59 AM 4-17-2009_


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Look at the 2nd chart here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4354409
This is a T4 1.19 a/r houisng....
you can see turbine housing choke on the high boost curve vs low boost curve....
Compare low boost with the chart posted in this thread with a.58 a/r....
+500rpm spool, gain ~100whp.
-Jeff




_Modified by Jefnes3 at 10:09 PM 4-22-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Look at the 2nd chart here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4354409
This is a T4 1.19 a/r houisng....
you can see turbine housing choke on the high boost curve vs low boost curve....
Compare low boost with the chart posted in this thread with a.58 a/r....
+500rpm spool, gain ~100whp.
-Jeff
_Modified by Jefnes3 at 10:09 PM 4-22-2009_

Who said that its the 1.19 T4 thats choked?
Could be exhaust (3.5 is minimum at that level)
could be intercooler
boost piping
air screen or air filter
200whp is minimum at 4000rpm even for a 2.8L
So that dyno got a normal curve with full boost at 5300ish or similar


----------



## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

turbo is on hold indefinitely
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4362265


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (Road_Ralley)*

that is very sad and a total loss.


----------

