# V10 Turbo Controllers



## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi, 

after many many months of searching for the "Holy Grail", I think I am over 99% certain that I may have a solution to the dreaded V10 Turbo Controller issue. 

The solution is (you guessed) new controllers. The problem here is VW do not (read, will not) supply the controllers separately. So, today I was at my favourite garage and happened to mention said problem whilst having new coilovers fitted to my son's Golf. Away went the owner, made one call, then produced one brand new controller (which he is almost certain will work perfectly). 

As Chris mentioned in a previous post (and was correct) the controllers are calibrated to the turbo, however, he assures me that they are "generically" calibrated, i.e. once you have the calibrations for one Phaeton Turbo then you effectively have a controller that will work with all Phaeton Turbos (presumably within given manufacture dates) 

So, next friday I will be dropping off two Turbos sans controllers for the guys to check and confirm that they can perform the task required. 

They are also hopeful that they might be able to coax the new controllers into situ without dropping the engine! 

Fingers crossed 

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Ahhhhhhhgh ..... raising my hopes....... 

Where did he get them from, BMW? And what's the chance it's a weak motor fixed by a new controller, instead of a stiff or sooty vane assembly, fixed by "engine out"?  

I'm all agog! 

Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Ahhhhhhhgh ..... raising my hopes.......
> 
> Where did he get them from, BMW? And what's the chance it's a weak motor fixed by a new controller, instead of a stiff or sooty vane assembly, fixed by "engine out"?
> 
> ...


 Chris, 

these are GENUINE VW parts in a VW box!!!!! Just not intended for sale to Phaeton owners! Go figure........ 

As to your second question, thats is (almost literally) the $64,000 question. However look on the bright side, if they don't solve the problem, then at least you have two new controllers and the Turbos can be rebuilt saving around £2k  

Win win methinks (if indeed the controllers will control our Turbos) 

Like I said I am taking the shortie in on Friday, (new discs and pads at each corner, new Fuchs oil, filters, suspension level sensor (rear left), new LH Battery, and a brake fluid transfusion. Oh, and two new boots on the front)! And will drop them off two Turbos to play with. 

Only time will tell! However, these guys are usually right! (Damned annoying really as they are just kids (they took me out in their TDi Jetta with 320BHP, very impressive)) 

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

At least you have some technical enthusiasm at your workshop, not just the cup of coffee (maybe) and a one-sided chat with a guy in a suit. 

I've never even seen a tech at mine, not even working behind the plate glass wall with 20 cars on ramps. Odd. They must have 2 hour tea breaks, hence the labour rate.  

Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> At least you have some technical enthusiasm at your workshop, not just the cup of coffee (maybe) and a one-sided chat with a guy in a suit.
> 
> I've never even seen a tech at mine, not even working behind the plate glass wall with 20 cars on ramps. Odd. They must have 2 hour tea breaks, hence the labour rate.
> 
> Chris


 Chris, 

I pay £40 per hour  

Stu


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## Nick55 (Jul 10, 2012)

*how did it go?*

Hi Stu, 

Can you give me your experience after changing the chargers? 

Unfortunately after cleaning the linkages I had today another issue with mine (1000km it was all good) so I may have to try your way if you think it went fine. 
Thanx, 
Nick 


EnglishPhaeton said:


> Chris,
> 
> these are GENUINE VW parts in a VW box!!!!! Just not intended for sale to Phaeton owners! Go figure........
> 
> ...


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Bumping this.

Does anyone have any updates on the availability of refurbished Hella controllers/motors for the Garrett V10 turbos?

It might be useful to have the Hella part number that's stamped on the side of the case, but which I can't read on mine _in situ_ and which I think I had noted down but seem to have lost somewhere.

There's a rumour that the motor is strengthened in later versions.

Cheers,
Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Bumping this.
> 
> Does anyone have any updates on the availability of refurbished Hella controllers/motors for the Garrett V10 turbos?
> 
> ...


Sorry Chris,

I know the above was aimed at me 

I currently have two Brand New Controllers (no price as yet) and am awaiting a reply as to whether these can be had on a relatively easy basis!

The old turbos are with my guys being fettled and they will test the controllers and see if 

a; it is possible to refurb the old controllers
b; whether or not other controllers can be re programmed

I WILL post next weekend with an update (promise)

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Stu,

Well, I was hoping some SuperTurboMan Hero would fly in and comment but it looks like he's still tied up in Metropolis, so it's all down to us regular humans!

My turbo switch-off is getting more irritating, so rather than lose the joy of the car I think it's shortly time to do something. I look forward to your guys' tests...

Cheers,
Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> Well, I was hoping some SuperTurboMan Hero would fly in and comment but it looks like he's still tied up in Metropolis, so it's all down to us regular humans!
> 
> ...


Chris, (and other V10 Drivers)

the controller part number is;

GARRETT HELLA 730314 6NW009228

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> the controller part number is GARRETT HELLA 730314 6NW009228


Thanks Stu!

It looks like they have updated the part from the one in this V10 turbo picture I found earlier today, which is 6NW 00*7* 228...

.









*[Edit: I now think it's 009, the photo wasn't very good. So ignore this remark! - Chris]*

Just for interest for myself and any other turbo sufferers (I'm sure your research has already been to these places), here's some more info I figured today.

It seems that the actuator comprises two parts, you can unclip the retaining springs and it immediately separates into a gearbox assembly which has a G-xxx number and an electronics shell part which has the 730314- type number plus the PCB which has the 6NW number. At least, that's my take on it.

The 730314 number is common to BMW, Ford, Volvo etc, some of which drive the motor with a pulse width modulated signal rather than a CAN-bus signal. So the distinction for Phaeton must be in the G- number and the 6NW number.

Here's an interesting (to me!) video of a guy testing one:

.


Hopefully your guys are doing something like this.

Cheers,
Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Chris (and others),

'tis with a heavy heart that I have to confirm the worst! 

It apparently would not prove cost effective to attempt tp change just the controllers. The opinion being that something (usually the VNT vanes) sticking would cause the problem in the controller. Usually the vanes would stick causing the controller worm gear (plastic) to fail, or worse, burn out the motor or controller circuit.

We have been able to ascertain that the controller ARE repairable but are seldom repaired due to a lack of faulty ones!! (VW must throw them out). Of course one could repair and replace these but you are still left with the potential cause of the failure I.E. the turbo.

The guys that have been looking at this develop big turbo applications for many VAG vehicles and say simply that the engine and turbos really need to be "given hell" on regular basis in order to prevent sticking of the vanes and subsequent further problems!

Very sorry not to be the bearer of better news!

Stu


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

without wishing to detract from the seriousness of the bad news, I do take one crumb of comfort from Stu's note. I will henceforth try even harder to give my V10 a good work out once an outing.

Regards

M


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

n968412L said:


> without wishing to detract from the seriousness of the bad news, I do take one crumb of comfort from Stu's note. I will henceforth try even harder to give my V10 a good work out once an outing.
> 
> Regards
> 
> M


Mike,

I was waiting for that one 

Stu


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I've heard something similar about the camshaft adjusters in my W8. If you don't drive occasionally drive the car like you would a hire car, then various solenoids and servos don't get exercised properly and gum up.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

How can you cane a V10? Or rather, where?

You run out of road or reach double the speed limit before the revs reach 3k. 

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Considering the technicals, does this mean that sooting of the turbo is the enemy? Does that have any implications for EGR action? But presumably the exhaust feedback is fed in the inlet after the turbo? So it's soot in the drive chamber that's the problem? I must have a look at the books.

My #2 turbo cuts out frequently, but when the tech frees up the vanes by hand, although he can feel some initial resistance which he thinks he reduces by 'exercising' the linkage, he doesn't say that it is seriously jammed up or locked.

And the controller motor draws up to 50 Watts and runs through a worm reduction drive. That ought to deliver nearly as much torque as the V10 itself!

I am confused.

I think I'll get hold of an intact used turbo assembly and have a play with replacing, servicing or otherwise attending to the motor assembly. It means the passenger side front drive shaft has to come off to gain access, but if the engine has to come out later there's a great deal more than that to remove. And it will still need a suspension re-jig afterwards either way.

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Stu,

Do you know what the G number of the units you had for testing were? It's faintly stamped in the casting on the side of the aluminium gearbox.

Cheers,
Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Considering the technicals, does this mean that sooting of the turbo is the enemy? Does that have any implications for EGR action? But presumably the exhaust feedback is fed in the inlet after the turbo? So it's soot in the drive chamber that's the problem? I must have a look at the books.
> 
> My #2 turbo cuts out frequently, but when the tech frees up the vanes by hand, although he can feel some initial resistance which he thinks he reduces by 'exercising' the linkage, he doesn't say that it is seriously jammed up or locked.
> 
> ...


Chris,

with regards to the controllers they are apparently identical to the Audi Q7 4.2TDI, so there may be another "source". Forgot to mention that earlier.

Stu


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> How can you cane a V10? Or rather, where?
> 
> You run out of road or reach double the speed limit before the revs reach 3k.
> 
> Chris


It's a challenge.

Long hills (2 miles) and where you don't mind if you're doing a tad over the speed limit at the top... there is one near here....

So I guess it's the highest engine load and boost you can muster little and often. 

I certainly don't think the 20 mile commute at 75 along the M62 really counts as a workout.

But keeping the turbos working will also put more duty on the transmission suspension and tyres. Oh the sacrifices we're forced to make!

Regards

M


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> Do you know what the G number of the units you had for testing were? It's faintly stamped in the casting on the side of the aluminium gearbox.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,

will have to let you know on tuesday now, as the controllers are at the garage. Oh, and yes they have access to the testing gizmo you posted earlier.

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> It's a challenge.
> 
> Long hills (2 miles) and where you don't mind if you're doing a tad over the speed limit at the top... there is one near here....
> 
> ...


 I went out tonight to check some local roads, but even on the infamous 'motorbike' coast road the revs didn't go over 1200 except round 90 degree bends in 2nd gear in the villages. 

I don't think that's going to burn off any deposits on the turbine! 

Thanks for looking up the actuator gearbox number. I'll be patient! Or I can get one of those video borescopes and try to read it off the inside of the engine bay. There is at least an inch to play with... 

Chris


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi all v-tenners,
The thing is, what is the actual part within the turbine that gums up?

Gabriel


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*Too much information!*



> what is the actual part within the turbine that gums up?


 That's part of the problem, we're not exactly sure yet... 

It could be 
-- the physical vane control ring inside the Garrett/Honeywell turbo's exhaust chamber (see the YouTube clips below). This is most likely. The control arm gets stiff or seized. 
-- the Hella motor/gearbox that drives the actuator arm that works the ring. This can fail if its mechanical load gets too high from the above. 
-- the electronics that gets the CAN-bus command and drives the electrics to the motor. This is a mil-spec glass PCB so it should be able to cope. but things do break. 

The actual fault on a scan is flagged by the ECU, which detects a pressure difference between its internal map (ie what it told the actuator to deliver) and what it actually gets from the G31 and G447 inlet manifold pressure sensors. 

If it's the control ring assembly, then the cause could be corrosion (moderately unlikely) or soot. If it's soot, then it would be useful to know why only one bank turbo is affected as yet, ie is that one bank running sooty and if so what is the cause of this? 

It is claimed that it's helpful to give the engine a good thrash to raise the turbo housing temperature and burn off the soot, although I am slightly skeptical on the grounds that it sounds like a recipe for creating gum, and why would a manufacturer design a turbo so it needed that? Also, it's easy to do on a commercial truck but difficult on a very high-powered car, unless you are making a YouTube movie in an unregulated country.  

The whole turbo assembly was updated from suffix E to suffix G (there was no F) on production after Jan 2006, so most Phaeton V10s are probably the older suffix E. 

Prior to that I heard there was a recall to change V10 turbos, but I haven't yet found out the details. Maybe that was Touareg only, for the well-known fly-away 10-cent actuator clip that required the engine out to fit. 

Chris 



*This one has a vacuum actuator, Phaeton has a motor*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Paximus said:


> P*rior to that I heard there was a recall to change V10 turbos*, but I haven't yet found out the details.


 Hi Chris: 

There was a major campaign to replace turbos on early production (MY 2003, 2004) V10 diesel engines. The campaign number is *21B4*. I have attached the document for your review. It provides the range of VIN numbers affected. 

Michael


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Michael, 

Thanks so much, that is very helpful. I'm feeling my way here. 

The doc implies that the problem that was corrected in the 21B4 campaign was an unresponsive EGR gas cooling bypass actuator vacuum unit, which was initially shipped as an integral part of the recycled gas cooling assembly but is (I guess) now an improved part which is listed separately. This actuator switches on EGR gas cooling above 50degC. 

The SSP says that EGR gas cooling is required to allow higher EGR volume which reduces total NO and also reduces carbon build-up. This is obviously relevant to turbo sooting. 

However, the SSP also says that each ECU uses the gas inlet temperature, the lambda sensor and the two exhaust temperature sensors in its calculations, and the lambda, for one, is closed-loop. So it's all too subtle for me to imagine the actual sooty consequences! 

But I would have thought that there was enough information there for the ECU to be able to calculate and isolate a DTC for a particular hardware failure. 

My car is 68-series rather than the 38- and 48- referred to in the Campaign, but it's still a useful clue as to what can happen. 

I have an uneasy (expensive) feeling that the engine will have to come out, but at least we will know to change the EGR cooling vacuum actuators, and possibly their control valves, amongst all the other possible bits of preemptive maintenance! 

Chris


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Paximus said:


> The SSP says that EGR gas cooling is required to allow higher EGR volume which reduces total NO and also reduces carbon build-up. This is obviously relevant to turbo sooting.
> 
> Chris


 Hi,
According to some academic articles that I have just read, which I can make available to anyone wishing to read some combustion theory , it is stated that the quotation above is true, provided that the combustion temperature remains below a certain temperature. 
However, it is also stated that EGR cannot be used over the whole range of operating loads and it has to be carefully controlled in order to limit soot formation. 
That makes sense, as newer VW/Audi engines feature electrical EGR valves rather than pneumatic ones in order to provide accurate metering of the recirculated exhaust gas. So, it seems quite likely that it is the way to reduce carbon build up.

Gabriel


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> newer VW/Audi engines feature electrical EGR valves rather than pneumatic ones in order to provide accurate metering of the recirculated exhaust gas


 Hi Gabriel, 

Thanks, I can't wait for that particular bedtime reading!  

As you say, the SSP describes the EGR flaps as being analogue, controlled by the pulse-width modulated signals fed to the solenoid valves N18 and N213. 

It seems to be almost impossible to predict if particular control stickiness or variations will produce more or less soot in the turbo drive chamber. 

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Update to my turbo sooting/actuator fault/vanes sticking (or whatever) problem: 

I changed both MAF sensors, mainly because the Bosch ones had some bad reports a few years ago. Also, it is extremely easy to do, and another company makes just the replacement inserts rather than changing the whole shell. 

This was triggered by noticing some smoke on acceleration from a standing start one night when car headlights behind me made it visible. I can't detect any smoke in the daylight. 

Needless to say it hasn't made any apparent difference, apart from the VCDS readings at idle dropping from 500 to 495. However, I feel that one more unknown is removed, also if it was a contributory cause then it's now out of the way. 

Chris


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Chris, 

You know you can check the performance of the MAF sensors with VCDS - there's an "Expected Value" and "Actual Value" in the engine measurement blocks. 

H


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Chris,
> 
> You know you can check the performance of the MAF sensors with VCDS - there's an "Expected Value" and "Actual Value" in the engine measurement blocks.
> 
> H


 Thanks Harry - I used the gadget and found the blocks that reported the measured values but I wasn't sure about the rest because there's no label file for the V10. Perhaps I can copy one from a 2.5L 5-cyl car... 

The readings were varying normally, and the old sensors were physically clean, but because of the highly intermittent or possibly long-term effects of the turbo vane problem (vis-a-vis possible sooting on one bank), plus the low torque delivery below 30mph, I didn't trust a simple test at one point in time. Also I was 'MAF-curious', there's one way to find out about something, and that's to dismantle it! 

Cheers, 
Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Hey guys, I found this through a search of the controller part number. I have a 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the CRD Mercedes turbo diesel. Just at 75k miles this actuator failed. I opened it up and the worm gear is definitely stripped down one side. The vane arm on the turbo is totally free to move around, no sticking at all. Poor design/material spec in my opinion, not of the turbo but of the controller! The dealer quoted me $6,400 to replace the turbo!

Here's a good read about these: http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2604

If anyone can find these NEW please let me know.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi,

To the best of my knowledge the Phaeton V10 turbos have VNT actuators that are controlled by a CAN-bus message, so have the extra bus interface components on the PCB.

If that's wrong I bow to your experience.

We too are very interested in finding a source of new actuators separate from the turbo assembly. It seems that power shut-downs are usually caused by these Hella parts, while the Garrett turbos themselves are usually OK.

VW will only sell us complete units, and fitting a pair of those requires engine removal. Fitting the actuators alone can probably done with the engine _in situ_.

Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

CAN or normal PWM servo action, either way I believe this to be a calibration issue, the motor should stop before it reaches a hard stop, but it's not and the worm gear isn't strong enough for the cyclic loading in one spot. Sticking vanes would wear the gear in numerous locations as soot and grime moves over time. I believe the hard stop is the vane open position, meaning idle and cruise. That's my theory anyways! Btw, mine has the same part numbers as yours.

Lastly, I will try to find it but I read a white paper by garrett in which they say that they will NEVER sell electric actuators on their own because they need to be calibrated to the turbo. Calibration only entails knowing where to stop. The duty cycle can't be exceeded in either direction because of this hazard. So yes, simply replacing them is done at risk.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

That's interesting information.

There is more on the V10 Hella turbo actuators and their refurbishment/replacement/gearbox wear/part numbers in this thread: V10 Turbo(s) cutting out.

I'm really grateful for any more information you can find.

Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I'll start replying to the other thread as there is more going on there. But here's the white paper from garrett:
http://www.turbo.com.sg/e-news/Garrett VNT - Non-repair buletin.pdf

Again, in the case of a stripped worm gear failure I believe that the controllers are losing calibration (or not supplying the correct feedback) which prompts the ECU to exceed the duty cycle at the "minimum vane open" position (no boost). When this happens the controller motor is forced to stop because the lever won't move anymore, rather than the motor stopping where it needs to.

If I am correct, these gears are going to fail if the ECU isn't calibrated to each controller.


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## DmcL (Sep 30, 2012)

instead of thinking about fixing the original turbo/controller what about alternative replacements to commonly problematic parts?

like if the worm gears are plastic, what about having an engineering place make some metal ones.

if the urbo and controller cant be replaced seperately how about substituting other turbo's for the originals? maybe ditch the VNT all together and use a nice simple turbo with no vanes to potentially be a problem? someone well versed in tuning this type of ECU would probably be needed to tweak turbo related maps and disable stuff relating to the VNT system though..

also the "italian tune up" thing is true for most if not all vehicles. you need to stretch the legs every so often.

lastly if its a soot/carbon build up issue what about using seafoam on the engine every so often?


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, my manager agrees with my analysis; the feed back isn't working and the motor is driving the acutator into the stop inside the gear box. Remember, at the end of the stroke only a couple of the teeth are engaged. Once you lose 1 or 2 teeth, the others bind upon re-engagement, accelerating their wear.

As far as replacement parts go, I can only imagine that the numerous shops in the UK have these gears custom made and they are not likely to sell them separately as they make $500 USD to repair each.

We just bought this 3D printer at work http://www.dimensionprinting.com/3d-printers/3d-printing-elite.aspx and I've been given approval to make the gear with it. If it works I'll have a machine an aluminum piece. Seriously though, these units are ticking time bombs. I'm only getting mine working well enough to sell the vehicle. Seriously, $6,400 to replace a turbo.....


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

So far we don't have any evidence that the actuators on the Phaeton V10 strip any gears. When disassembled, the gears on an actuator that causes boost trip look absolutely as new.

On one of mine, it was said by the refurbish shop that the motor was weak. They replaced the gearbox side of the device and it more-or-less fixed the problem. Instead of one trip a day it now only happens rarely, which I can live with.

It is probably the case that the CAN-bus commands are absolute. By this I mean that the ECUs instruct the actuator to go to 70% and the PCB does that, it is programmed to never exceed the limits and thereby does not strip the gears.

On the other hand, if the 1990 Corrado has an analogue driver then a failure in a lambda or boost pressure sensor could well cause the pulse width driver to run up to one end, say 100%, which you have observed will strip the gear on the worm drive.

As well as fixing the actuator, have you had a thorough inspection of all the various sensors and their readings on a VCDS?

I don't mean to go off-topic, because this is a Phaeton forum, but anything that sheds light on repairing these pesky devices will be very useful.

When comparing various Hella actuators remember that the same part number can have different gearbox assemblies and can therefore be incompatible with one with the same part number from a different car.

For example, even the Phaeton and Touareg V10s (which are are very similar) do not share actuators, as far as I know, because the rest stops on the output cam and the actuator arms are set at different positions.

I believe that the variation in part numbers and the variation in cam settings are the true reason why Hella/Garrett do not wish to be involved in supplying spare actuator parts, other than the emissions certification politics.

Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

hehe, this turbo is on my 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee, the actuator has the same part numbers as yours. Only difference is the gearbox is a G-88.

Are you telling me that one of you guys might have a spare gear box with the gear I need so badly?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi (sorry, I don't know your name!),

I have three actuators in the spares box. Can you post a photo of the inside of the gearbox assembly, to compare the number of threads on the worm drive? I assume that is the part that is stripped on yours.

Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Why yes, yes I can. It is unfortunate that your cars are experiencing a different failure mode. I have more pictures here: http://s227.photobucket.com/user/AeroAnt/library/Jeep CRD Turbo Actuator 6NW 009 228

There are 6 teeth on the worm gear. The stripped side lines up with the actuator in the down position, which I believe is full boost. I say this because when I turn the key to the On position, the actuator will cycle and return to the Up position. I thought this would be the most likely hard stop but that doesn't appear to be the case. I guess the wife likes to drive too fast!

Right now I am driving the Jeep with the actuator "Up" and light on the throttle.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Here is the G-22 gearbox. This unit was made in 2005 and clearly uses the same motor and worm gear as yours. Yours has a moulded plastic piece adjacent to the down mechanical stop cast into the alloy housing, this one does not have that piece.

The photographed gearbox was reported as 'weak' by the refurb shop, although it looks pristine. However, changing it pretty much fixed the problem.

In some cases it is the turbine vane ring and control lever that gets gummed up and becomes stiff. Then the actuator trips off regardless how good its motor is. Maybe it could even strip the worm gear under those conditions.

I presume the actuator lever on your turbine is totally free to move. On a working turbine the lever gives almost no resistance, to the extent that it feels like it is disconnected inside the turbine. However, that's how it should be.


Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Yeah, the lever is totally free from resistance, it does feel like it completely snapped inside the turbo, but apparently that's a good thing. 

Sending you a PM now....


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I just received one of Chris's actuators.  Super happy I'm able to try it out. After opening it up and inspecting the only thing I see different from mine is that the lever is mounted backwards. I plan to try it out as-is if I can figure out how to remove the lever, spin it and remount it. :thumbup:


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I popped in the good gear and the Jeep is back to normal running condition! :thumbup::thumbup: Really brightened up my day to do that successfully. The actuator I received from Chris definitely had a motor that didn't want to spin freely. I can see as how the response would be slow from it. I'm glad I didn't try to use it. The motor from my Jeep was very easy to turn. I'll post up some pics of the process later this week.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Antony,

Now that's a really, really helpful piece of information that could save the group of V10 owners tens of thousands compared with engine removal. It was not known before now that one of those little 12V motors could become stiff, other than vague reports of 'weakness' from a refurbish shop that could have had a commercial interest in replacement.

I don't suppose you took some photos of the motor/gear removal process? Is it straightforward?

Chris

[Edit - sorry, you said very clearly you had some photos. I need another morning coffee! - Chris]


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Yes, kind of a funny story. I used to help a friend on the side with his family's scanner/copier repair business. So since I'm good at technician work I found myself fixing these paper handling machines. You can imagine that I've replaced at least a few small 5 - 12volt motors. Very similar to what's in these actuators. Stiff rotation, high torque without power was generally a good indication that it met its end.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

*Actuator disassembly instructions*

Tools required: A milling machine and a small selection of end mills. Philips and flat head screw drivers. A punch set and small hammer.

Steps:
1. Pop off clips holding the black case to the gear box. Split open.
2. Mill out the pressed in cap covering the screw that holds the motor in place with a 5/16" end mill.
3. Remove the screw.
4. Do your best to remove the leaf spring holding the motor in without damaging anything.
5. Remove motor.
6. Eyeball a clearance hole for punching out the pin that keeps the worm gear in place. Mill the clearance hole with a 3/16" end mill.
7. Punch out pin, remove gear.
8. Re-assembly is reverse of disassembly.


On the Jeep Grand Cherokee, the process of removing the actuator, rebuilding it and re-installing it takes 2 - 3 hours. 

I have read that the dealer recalibrates the actuator to the vehicle when a new one is installed. Although I technically have the original unit back in place, I still plan on taking it to the dealer as the gear stripped for a reason. Whether they are competent enough to understand what I'm asking is to be determined. This is an ECU function. Actuator rebuilding shops can't do this for you.

ONE LAST NOTE: I have flip flopped on this matter and it's really just a small curiosity. I'm making one last statement about this. It appears that the gear stripped in the IDLE/PRESSURE RELIEF end of the lever's rotation.




*PN: PPA-CF30* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphthalamide


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

That's a very helpful set of photos, thanks.

It must be time to investigate where replacement or equivalent motors can be obtained for Phaeton and Touareg V10 owners. There is probably a sufficient supply of good worm gears available in surplus units in the used parts market to supply those other cars suffering from that separate problem.

Chris


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Now this is a little frustrating: a similar 12V motor to the one in the Hella actuators, with the same part number, has been on the hobby market but is now sold out:

12V Motor 73541902 - €8.08

I wonder if Hella sold off some unsuitable motor stock at some time in the past?

Chris


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

After a little more research it seems that the motor is made by Johnson Motor and is very similar to standard part no. HC355XLG-101.

This is available at €31, but it remains to be seen if Hella made some kind of adjustment to the stock part for their products.

Curiously, it is now listed as a throttle body motor (for VW vehicles) and the current offering from Johnson for turbo controllers is the HC677L-120, which has nearly three times as much torque but is larger.

Chris


----------



## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I guess the only way to find out is to talk to someone at the factory. A suitable replacement has to be available. 

I just found out that the dealer is wrong. My turbo is under warranty for 1 more year. I hope the actuator breaks again before then.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I have ordered a few HC355XLG-101 motors to make some comparisons with the ones fitted in the V10 turbo actuators.

When I come to any conclusion as to the viability of a repair process, I'll post the results.

Chris


----------



## Andre_7 (Jun 18, 2013)

Gentlemen, 

I am in a kinda same boat in terms of having a stripped worm gear on my actuator - 6NW 009 228 G53 from 2007 MB E320 bluetec followed your discussion and it is very helpful as spending over 3 grand on a new turbo seems silly. 

What is even more silly is that i accidentally stripped the gears myself (long story), so i think that replacing the worm gear might fix the bind I am in - meaning the electric motor itself may be OK. 

So I am looking for a used actuator - what suggestions besides ebay and reman would you have? Could I offer to buy one of the used ones you might have? 

Kind regards and thank you in advance. Andrey


----------



## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

The Ford Mondeo in the non-US market will be the place to look. I asked a couple overseas sellers on ebay but they don't want to ship to the states. 

I will be putting a broken unit in before our 6 year warranty is up. We paid extra for it. We're going to use it.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Andrey, 

I have no more spares myself, so ebay.co.uk and ebay.de are a good source of generic Hella actuators. It's more difficult to find the exact model you need, of course. 

Will a repacking company like www.borderlinx.com help with shipping to an address in the vendor's own country, then forwarding to your address? 

Chris


----------



## Andre_7 (Jun 18, 2013)

Thank you - have been looking at the Euro ebay... 

A question - if I the only thing I want is to to replace the worm drive - how important are the gear "G" numbers? I mean that the worms are likely the same and the actuator will likely be re-calibrated anyway by the dealer... (I plan to reuse my actuator and swap the worm gear) 

Also - in one of the earlier posts there was a reference to Jeep dealer re-calibrating the replaced actuator. How did that go, would anyone know? Was it expensive? 

Andrey.


----------



## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

All the gears are the same as far as I can tell. Never got the dealer to calibrate. It's just something I read in my research. In my experience tuning engines this makes perfect sense. The ECU's output would need to know where to stop at either end. 

Right now I don't care, I'd like my controller to break before next year.


----------



## 8secondquarters (Apr 7, 2005)

This might be of interest

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrett-E...rts_SM&fits=Model:Phaeton&hash=item20d44f4f98


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I note the eBay unit above has a G-95 gearbox fitted, but my MY2006 V10 left actuator has a G22 gearbox.

Maybe this is an upgrade, but it is worth checking in case of incompatibilities.

Last year I bought a scrap turbo from eBay.de for peanuts, for learning purposes, but the vendor had switched the actuator and screwed on what seemed to be an incompatible Ford Mondeo one with a G-221 gearbox. It did not matter in my case, I still learned a lot.

Chris


----------



## G3Concepts (Jul 26, 2013)

*Repairing Hella Actuators*

I have just found this forum after searching for the hella worm gear. 
We are looking to find someone who can manufacture them.

We repair these hella actuators on a daily basis, usually the motors are shot, but occasionally we find broken worm gears when the mechanic has tried to free off the turbo with a few "gentle taps"
Sadly, the main problem with the vnt's is the vane mechanism sticking.

We are all former Garrett engineers, who have worked with these actuators for many years.
We would not recommend fitting an exchange part, as the turbo is matched to the actuator when they set the minimum-flow position. We always check and adjust the minimum-flow on our own minimum-flow bench whenever we repair a VNT turbocharger. The bench itself is proving to be so popular, that we are manufacturing the flow bench for other turbo repairers!

The repair of the actuator is well documented on these forums, I think most people who read these posts have enough sense to repair them themselves. Only problem is parts?

I have a stock of the Johnson motors if anyone is looking for one, just PM me.

If you have repaired your own actuator and are looking to check the minimum flow, give me a shout and i'll direct you to one of our customers, who can check your set-up using our machine.

If you can help source the hella worm gear, I would be eternally grateful


----------



## Appaz (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi,

My V10 again - engine out.
Turbos.
Yeah, the same old story I had a year ago. :screwy:
Permanent limp mode.
Shows left turbo module fault. Nothing new.

I am now considering two options:
1. New stock turbos (I am not sure anymore this will help for long)
2. Try to go with GT2260V this one has or any other turbos which would be a fit.

Question -
If I'll go with opt2 and install different turbos and controller modules - does this make any sense at all?
My goal would be to get rid of continuously failing parts - modules of stock turbos.


----------



## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

G3Concepts said:


> We repair these hella actuators on a daily basis, usually the motors are shot, but occasionally we find broken worm gears when the mechanic has tried to free off the turbo with a few "gentle taps"
> Sadly, the main problem with the vnt's is the vane mechanism sticking.



That's a very expensive mistake! 

I wonder if my gear stripped because the vane is sticking. My replacement gear is working fine but Chrysler still owes me a new turbo....


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi G3Concepts,

Thanks for posting and good luck with your new professional turbo calibration bench!

Regarding the worm gears, the OEM material for both the worm and the motor gear seems to be PPA CF30 (Polyphthalamide with 30% carbon fibre), although I see that stock Johnson motors come with a metal gear. There are companies like this one that will provide pattern parts in small numbers given a CAD drawing, but I suspect that with unit prices in the £100+ region the parts costs would be uneconomic for the actuator refurbishment market.

In your experience, do the worm and gear wear much in normal use, aside from catastrophic failure like the photos posted in this thread? The failed actuators that I have seen have all been mechanically pristeen. In which case, recycling the parts from scrap actuators would seem the cheapest way.

However, your knowledge of the worm gear variations between engines must be streets ahead of my experience!


The particular problem for forum members here is that the V10 variant of our car has twin turbos which (a) require engine removal to replace, coming in at £5000, and (b) have the factory embargo (which you endorse) of not being allowed to replace only the failed actuators. The turbine assembly and vane levers appear to be quite robust.

Since actuator replacement can be done without engine removal there is a very large financial incentive to find a solid actuator calibration and replacement procedure. The actuators are CAN-bus driven, so once set up separately from the turbine assembly should not be too mismatched to the VNT vane lever tolerances.

If you have any comments on the above I would *love *to hear them!

Chris


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> My V10 again - engine out.
> Turbos.
> Yeah, the same old story I had a year ago.
> Permanent limp mode.
> Shows left turbo module fault. Nothing new.


Hi Ed,

Did your garage source the last replacement turbos from VW, or were they refurbished at an independent shop? I am curious to know.

Also, what are the fault codes?

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi V10'ers!

definetly subsricbed to this thread! 

Also a bit annoyed at VW for this damocles sword and that they offer no real relief for this construction problem other than spending big $$$

As to the thread theme i have a dark premonition....so what are the first symptoms of failing turbo's??
fuel consumption? noise?

haven't driven on the highway for a couple of months and looking at the mpg that fuel consumption is slightly up, noticed e.g. in idle that i am running at 1.6/1.3

As the stand is at the moment there's no DIY fix for this?

Regards
Apper


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Apper,

The problems referred to by a few V10 owners in the UK are simply that every so often, on some affected cars once a year and on some cars once a week, the turbos are shut down by the ECUs and a fault is posted in the diagnostics scan. When this happens, the car continues to run normally below 50 mph and can still reach in excess of 80mph, but it is obviously low on power.

If you stop and restart the engine the 'fault' is cleared, normal acceleration is restored, and the problem may not be seen again for months.

The diagnostics simply says that the boost pressure on either the right or, slightly more frequently I think, the left turbo is not achieving the boost that matches the amount of demand that the CAN-bus is telling the actuator to set.

This is probably not a mechanical problem with a turbine, since turbine failure is usually catastrophic. In many brands of turbo cars it is the VNT (vane linkage) mechanism that gets sooted up and prevents the actuator from moving the VNT control lever. However, the few removed VW V10 turbos that I have seen have all had extremely free movement of the control arm.

That only leaves the actuator assembly or the software as the culprit. Hence the interest in the actuator motor, which is small and seems to become weak, or the actuator control board, which is pretty much of non-repairable industrial strength construction, or a software bug.

That's where we are at present. So if your V10 turbos are working continuously, don't worry about them. If you have a V6 TDI then the turbo on that is not really a cause of trouble, so again don't worry about it. If you have a Bentley W12 twin turbo then you probably won't blink an eyelid when the garage tells you after a routine service they changed the turbos.

I suspect that V10 turbos/actuators are changed on seeing this problem, especially in Germany, when the car warranty covers it. Otherwise, people shrug their shoulders and figure that a minor disruption once a year is not too bad when you are saving having the engine out... But not everyone would agree with me on that point.

I hope that summary helps.

Cheers,
Chris


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi Chris,

thanks for your explanation and yes i've got the V10 2006
i thought that the first signs were increased fuel consumption not a complete shutoff?
howdo you shutdown turbos, put them in a vain position?

any idea what the sensors are on the actuator or control board, could be that when the actuator motor goes bad it draws to many amps/V or overheats.

i need too read the thread again....

Once again thanks!

Apper


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

To shut off the turbos, ECU1 simply stops telling the actuators to pull the VNT lever.

I don't think the fuel consumption changes a lot when the turbos are switched off, because the engine power is curtailed. So although the power unit may be a little less efficient, you are forced to drive in some kind of Eco mode! 

The sensor in the actuator is a wheel attached to the output shaft with three loops printed on it, working at a distance against an inductive track on the PCB. As the actuator shaft rotates, the PCB senses the angle and (presumably) applies feedback to increase or decrease the motor drive to achieve the requested rotation.

The little 12V motor appears to lose torque. This might happen due to demagnetisation of some part of it. Or it could be a reduced drive from the PCB, although changing the motor appears to correct the problem for a while.

The device seems to run 'cool' enough, although that's not the right word for a piece of kit which had to be surrounded by a reflective heat jacket and which is located next to a 300 degree Celsius exhaust component!

Cheers,
Chris


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

somebody already saw this?:
https://ecu.de/vw-(volkswagen)/sons...kswagen-vw-6nw008412-hella-712120-104904.html

they can check the unit and do a complete overhaul

also found these guys: http://www.expert-car.de/index.php
guess that they at least could do an analyse of the problem


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi CHris,

have read all the V10 Turbo related posts, i saw that there were still issues after the complete turbos are exchanged aka the shutdown still occurs?

my two cents:
could this mean that it might be an exhaust issue or intake pressure issue?
what would happen when the engine looses compression due to piston wear or piston ring wear as with a turbo charging the input pressure is many times higher?
i read on the german car motortalk.de that some have had piston failures, even complete engine failure which might happen more frequent when driving on german autobahns and so happen before turbo failure kicks in?

the exhaust having problems with the catalytic converter clogging up? i read that one can clean that by driving a trip in S mode with high revs.

Apper.


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## Appaz (Oct 30, 2009)

Paximus said:


> Hi Ed,
> Did your garage source the last replacement turbos from VW, or were they refurbished at an independent shop? I am curious to know.


Chris,

I did inspect turbos in an independent local tuning company specialized on turbos. Turbines themselves were pretty good condition, but I asked to make a full rehabilitation (if that's the word to use) anyway, which was done.
They also inspected both modules. Both were good.
So inspection showed turbos and modules actually were OK.
Installed restored turbos. All was fine for about 3-4 months. On an intense highway ride for about 300km I experienced shut down of turbos. After a while behaviour started to repeat more often. As it was before the repair work.
A while after turbos were shutting down every time water temperature got to 60°C.
About a week after that turbo's were completely gone, even on cold engine.



Paximus said:


> Hi Ed,
> Also, what are the fault codes?


I do not know the codes, sorry. 

Ed.


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## haywood801 (Apr 8, 2010)

*another V10 question???*

Im bouncing over from club touareg to try and get some answers...

I see several companies offering repaired and reconditioned actuators. If I purchase one and stick it on my car, what has to take place then to make it work well? 

Ive heard they have to be calibrated on a flowbench. what is the truth?

thanks, J


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## haywood801 (Apr 8, 2010)

haywood801 said:


> Im bouncing over from club touareg to try and get some answers...
> 
> I see several companies offering repaired and reconditioned actuators. If I purchase one and stick it on my car, what has to take place then to make it work well?
> 
> ...


bump... 
there is also lots of mention of resetting the actuator to zero flow position, but I dont see that anyone has ever mentioned it on a forum? 
thoughts?


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## Director1 (Jan 13, 2014)

Hi G3concepts
Thanks for your useful post.
I have a Garrett G-219 actuator with a worn worm gear.
Do you have any of these in stock or possibly a lead where I can find one?
Thanks for your help.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

haywood801 said:


> bump...
> there is also lots of mention of resetting the actuator to zero flow position, but I dont see that anyone has ever mentioned it on a forum?
> thoughts?


I imagine that the computer would need to know when it should stop the motor from spinning when it quickly needs to bypass the turbine. If it hits the stop every time the engine goes from full boost to lifted throttle, it's going to jam the worm gear repeatedly in the same spot.


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## Turbooster (Apr 23, 2014)

Hello,

I´m not sure in english.
I´m from Germany and have possiblity for produce the gear worm for Hella actuator.
But MOQ is 5000pcs.
If 1500 pcs. the cost will be about 9 EUR/pc.

How is your opinion about it?

regards
Turbooster


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Turbooster,

I have only seen the inside worm gears of half a dozen used V10 actuators, and all of them had worm gears that were like new.

From this very limited experience, I am not sure that there is a big demand for replacement worm gears.

It seems that any V10 turbo cut-outs are from a much more subtle cause to do with the two engine banks' running conditions, with perhaps a contribution from weak actuator motors and over-sensitive monitoring software.

Regards,
Chris


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Over 1 year and 12,000 miles on Chris's worm gear. Still running OK. I think poor quality control on these parts is the problem. It wouldn't be such an issue if the remedy was cheaper/easier.


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## Turbooster (Apr 23, 2014)

The same worm gear is used in all Hella actuators, not in V10 only!!!
And this is a wear part.
I´m offer this in case of inquiry from "Garrett egineers" here in this forum.

regards
Turbooster


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> I´m offer this in case of inquiry from "Garrett engineers" here in this forum.


Thanks! It won't be long until we will be asking for your help and comments, I am sure! 

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

I got turbo cut-out today. Third time in 30 months. Last time was 24/9/12 and that's 11380 miles ago.... Probably my own fault for not taking my own advice.... which is to make them work hard at least once per journey...I'd been cruising gently for an hour or so ... stopped for a coffee for 30 mins - and it was a couple of minutes after restarting that they cut out.

Memo to self... more pedal!!

Still..... 39.5 mpg is some consolation....!

<a href="http://s771.photobucket.com/user/n968412L/media/IMG-20140520-00218_zpsad085b75.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx354/n968412L/IMG-20140520-00218_zpsad085b75.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG-20140520-00218_zpsad085b75.jpg"/></a>


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Mike,

I had the same experience last weekend during a 450 mile round trip to St Ives, Cornwall. The turbos cut out a couple of minutes after a warm restart which was followed by a sedate 30 mph for 5 minutes. Prior to that there had been none since last year, as far as I recall.

This pattern seems to be recurrent, so I wonder if the software's trip limits are set too tight for the real world behaviour of a run-in V10 and its transmission in warmer (ie > 8 degC) ambient air.

My only spark of doubt concerns the car's transmission switch DTC, the one that is often seen on posted scans, which I had assumed could be ignored. Does your car report this flagged standard problem with the gear shift slider switch? I may fix it in order to rule out some kind of pre-disposition to trigger a turbo alarm, as I have a feeling that the gearbox behaviour is involved in the cut-off issue.

Other than being a minor disturbance I am prepared to live with it for now, as a reset always clears it on a long journey.

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Chris - well... all three of my events have been in the summer - July, September and yesterday. All warm days.

I'll have to scan the car again to see what's there... but yes, I do have intermittent trans fault codes along these lines:

Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: None
Part No SW: 09F 927 760 B HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09F 5,0L V10TDI 1202 
Coding: 0001101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E243-5120

1 Fault Found:
17167 - Shift Monitoring 
P0783 - 000 - 3-4 Shift - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1760 /min
RPM: 1664 /min
RPM: 1120 /min
(no units): 42.0
(no units): 25.0
Temperature: 39.0°C
T.B. Angle: 28.2°
Voltage: 12.40 V

Always goes away when reset and doesn't come back immediately. Never associated anything in the car's performance with this fault, in other words I don't actually understand what it means.

As soon as the cutout happened yesterday I stopped, rebooted the engine and the problem cured immediately.

The sedate driving was all before the cut out... post the cut out I had to press the pedal a bit harder..... 

regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> The sedate driving was all before the cut out... post the cut out I had to press the pedal a bit harder.....


Sorry, yes, that's what I meant too. The trip-off generally happens after a warm start, for example a fuel stop, followed by lack of high revs for a few minutes driving. Such as following a Micra at 27mph in a 60mph limit while they discover which side of the road feels best.

I haven't seen a gearbox report like yours though. Is it saying that it wouldn't shift 3rd to 4th while the steering wheel was a quarter turn rotated? That sounds like a normal inhibition to me.

Chris


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

For your delight gents:

_*Gear Load – P0781, P0782, P0783, P0784, P0829.
*
These monitors identify excessive or reduced slip during gear changes. The excessive slip part of the monitors is caused by the engaging clutch not coming on
quickly enough. The reduced slip monitoring identifies that the off going clutch is not coming off quickly enough. These monitors run continuously as long as the
entry conditions continue to be satisfied.

When a gearshift is detected the monitor initially checks that the transmission fluid pressure and output shaft speeds are both above their required thresholds for
the monitor to run. If either is not above its threshold, then the monitor is stopped.

The level of slip is first checked against the slip high threshold. If the actual slip exceeds the high threshold then a fault present timer is incremented and the
check repeated. When the fault present timer exceeds it predefined threshold then the shift is aborted and a fault counter is incremented.
If the level of slip is below the slip high threshold, it is then checked against the slip low threshold. If the actual slip is less than the low threshold then a fault
present timer is incremented and the check repeated. When the fault present timer exceeds it predefined threshold the shift is aborted and a fault counter is
incremented.

When the fault counter exceeds its predefined threshold, the relevant DTC is logged.

Note: Unless specifically included in the tables below, IAT, ECT, vehicle speed and time after start up are not critical to enable these monitors._

_*P0781* Gear load 1-2/2-1. Calculated slip during shift is excessive.
*P0782* Gear load 2-3/3-2. Calculated slip during shift is excessive.
*P0783* Gear load 3-4/4-3. Calculated slip during shift is excessive.
*P0784* Gear load 4-5/5-4. Calculated slip during shift is excessive.
*P0829* Gear load 5-6/6-5. Calculated slip during shift is excessive_

The original source is a Jaguar 6HP transmission training document.

Gabriel


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

I think this thread is morphing into a gearbox thread....

Now you mention it I've been aware of some upshifts at odd revs... mainly in the V10... but the V6 occasionally. Mainly I get the impression its hanging on to second longer than I would have expected.

I keep thinking about a Dortmund visit.......

M


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> Such as following a Micra at 27mph in a 60mph limit while they discover which side of the road feels best.


I was behind someone like this on Sunday... 35 mph in the 30 zone.. then slowed down to about 27 once it became derestricted... and drove on the crown of the road....

But the twin turbos soon dispatched him into the rear horizon.....

M


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Got round to scanning today....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGMª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71DCE1F6612D-513C

1 Fault Found:
17075 - Fan 1 Control Circuit 
P0691 - 000 - Short to GND
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 588 /min
Torque: 79.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 13.22 V
Bin. Bits: 00001100
Temperature: 55.8°C
Duty Cycle: 27.9 %

Readiness: 0 0 X X X 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0E1312413
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-5120

Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

2 Faults Found:
01176 - Key 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00165 - Switch for Transmission Position P/N 
007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: None
Part No SW: 070 906 016 B HW: 028 101 073 7
Component: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGSª5726 
Coding: 0000175
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 0F26BDB71DCE1F6612D-513C

1 Fault Found:
18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2 
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2436 /min
Torque: 513.5 Nm
Speed: 58.3 km/h
Load: 50.2 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1774.8 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1887.0 mbar


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone know what the turbocharger fault is? The Ross Tech wiki is not that enlightening....

Thanks

M


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

n968412L said:


> Got round to scanning today....
> 
> 
> Absolute Pres.: 1774.8 mbar
> ...


Hi Mike,
I have not a clue of the meaning of that particular fault.
However, looking at your scan, I would say that by some reason, at that particular moment, the turbo was no able to produce the requested boost, that is 1.887bar, and only produced 1.774bar. Therefore the controller generated that fault.

Gabriel


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Here's some grist for our mill. These are the DTCs I have recorded on this issue over the last few years, together with some actions taken (in red text):


1 Fault Found:
18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1785 /min
Torque: 300.2 Nm
Speed: 50.0 km/h
Load: 29.8 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1285.2 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1774.8 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2058 /min
Torque: 316.0 Nm
Speed: 77.4 km/h
Load: 33.3 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1407.6 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2101.2 mbar


==== Lubricated the turbo linkages ====


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2583 /min
Torque: 300.2 Nm
Speed: 46.4 km/h
Load: 34.9 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1428.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1723.8 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1764 /min
Torque: 300.2 Nm
Speed: 41.6 km/h
Load: 32.2 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1336.2 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1764.6 mbar
16619 - Boost Pressure
P0235 - 000 - Regulation Range not Reached - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2037 /min
Torque: 292.3 Nm
Speed: 45.2 km/h
Load: 50.2 %
Voltage: 13.38 V
Bin. Bits: 00010100
Absolute Pres.: 1938.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1285.2 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1890 /min
Torque: 308.1 Nm
Speed: 52.4 km/h
Load: 32.2 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1346.4 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1948.2 mbar


==== Took this graph of left (#2) turbo with car stationary ====

There is no VCDS label file for the V10 TDI engine, however some parameters are labelled with units, presumably implied by the CAN-bus message format for each.

red = engine RPM, 0 - 6000
white = ??? -50% to +150%
green = [?] requested turbo pressure, 900 - 2500 mBar
yellow = [?] supplied turbo pressure, 900 - 2500 mBar


(a) The recorded idle levels of the pressures are different. Is this a sensor issue, or to be expected?

(b) with the car stationary, the yellow trace overshoots compared with the green trace. One of these is requested turbo pressure, the other is actual turbo pressure. But I don't know which is which. Probably the yellow is actual, because of the control lag and the fact the car is stopped and has no load.












==== replaced left (#2) turbo actuator controller with refurbished unit having a new motor & gearbox ====


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1974 /min
Torque: 237.0 Nm
Speed: 30.9 km/h
Load: 31.4 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1326.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1948.2 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2394 /min
Torque: 505.6 Nm
Speed: 65.5 km/h
Load: 49.4 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1744.2 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2550.0 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2205 /min
Torque: 426.6 Nm
Speed: 47.6 km/h
Load: 43.1 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1591.2 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2366.4 mbar
16619 - Boost Pressure
P0235 - 000 - Regulation Range not Reached - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2310 /min
Torque: 308.1 Nm
Speed: 47.6 km/h
Load: 68.6 %
Voltage: 13.30 V
Bin. Bits: 00010100
Absolute Pres.: 2244.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1468.8 mbar

18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1806 /min
Torque: 221.2 Nm
Speed: 30.9 km/h
Load: 30.6 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1224.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 1774.8 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1890 /min
Torque: 244.9 Nm
Speed: 33.3 km/h
Load: 33.3 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1305.6 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2019.6 mbar


18361 - Turbocharger Control Module 2
P1953 - 000 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2415 /min
Torque: 387.1 Nm
Speed: 38.1 km/h
Load: 40.4 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 00100000
Absolute Pres.: 1581.0 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2121.6 mbar



In conclusion, until I know which pressure reading is demand and which is actual I can't work out if the turbo is over-supplying air (calibration problem), under supplying air (also a calibration problem) or both (sticky mechanics or possibly calibration as well).

I need to take some more graphs of pressures, this time in road conditions and of both turbos at the same time. I'm not sure if this is viable with VCDS, ie whether the car ECUs will co-operate while they are busy, but I can try. I couldn't do it when I took the previous graph because my ancient VCDS laptop battery was not up to a longer run. Now I use an inverter.

Since the Turbo trip doesn't happen very frequently, and a reset will always clear it, I have not bothered to discover the correct measurement and diagnostics to perform. Perhaps the forum will now focus my mind!

Chris


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Chris,
Is the response of both turbos the same? That might give us some more insight.
Analysing the your figures, it seems that the fault tends to appear when the diferential between the actual and the requested turbo pressure varies between 21% and 55%, however the occurrence is higher when the differential is above 40%.
Gabriel


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## flyingMotors (Sep 12, 2014)

*Phaeton 5.0 Direct Fuel Injection system with pump-inj. slave*

Dear Friends;

I have a problem with my Phaeton 5.0 TDI. I am getting these error messages from my scanning using VAS-PC
San anybody help to me how to solve my problems?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diesel - Direct Fuel Injection system with pump-inj. slave 

070906016CM 

V10 5,0L EDCG000AGS 

Coding 175 

Dealer number 03402 

0281010737 ? 

--- 

7001 


3 Event(s) detected 

(1)

16619 P0235 000 

Charge Air Pressure Sensor -G31- 

Control limit exceeded 

Ambient requirements: 

Measured values:


Value 1 2520 /min
Value 2 347.6 Nm
Value 3 41 km/h
Value 4 59.2 %
Value 5 12.6 V
Value 6 00001100
Value 7 2050 mbar 
Value 8 1458 mbar

(2) 
18361 P1953 000 

Turbocharger ECU 2 

defective 

Ambient requirements: 

Measured values:

Value 1 2390 /min 
Value 2 442.4 Nm 
Value 3 40 km/h 
Value 4 45.9 % 
Value 5 00000000 
Value 6 00100000
Value 7 1672 mbar 
Value 8 2162 mbar

(3)

19577 P3121 000 

Valve for pump / injector cylinder 10 -N 

Electrical malfunction in circuit 

sporadic 

Ambient requirements: 

Measured values:

Value 1 690 /min 
Value 2 79.0 Nm 
Value 3 0 km/h 
Value 4 0.0 % 
Value 5 11.2 V 
Value 6 00001111
Value 7 23.4 °C
Value 8 16
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Mahir,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I wonder if you have found any more information yet?

The turbo charger computer system is very touchy on the 5.0L V10 and any small unbalance between the left and right turbos or injection systems will trigger a turbo switch-off and a report of a defective turbocharger.

The most common event (as far as I have seen reported) is that the turbos are occasionally switched off after you set off on a warm start, such as after refuelling and then pulling away behind slow traffic, without demanding enough torque to exercise the turbos in the first 15 seconds. Sharp acceleration in the first 15 seconds after starting the engine sometimes allows the turbos to stay on.

It is possible that a worn or stuck turbo vane actuator motor system will cause this, but access to the motor drive assemblies for lubrication and test is awkward unless the engine is removed. The turbo and its vane control motor are calibrated by the factory as a pair, so unless a motor or worm gear is definitely faulty it's best to leave them alone, other than lubricating and freeing-off the external linkage arms and pivots.

Your scan shows an unusual pressure report from one of the two G31/G42 sensors of the compressed inlet air pressure and temperature. If this isn't caused by the turbo linkage, then in theory it could be worth checking for air leaks in the air ducts to and from the charged air coolers behind the front bumper cover, and blockage of their radiator fins. It may also be worth changing both the G31 air pressure sensors 038 906 051C (Bosch 0 281 002 401) which are attached to the air cooler 'radiators'. They are not expensive, being the same part as used on many VAG cars. Due to differential aging, they should both be replaced at the same time, in my opinion. The complication may come from removing the bumper cover and getting it back on without cracking the plastic.

The solenoid fault on the injector on no. 10 cylinder is probably not related, as the fault report refers to a cold start when the turbos would not yet be active.

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*Archival note:*

Mahir's thread on his turbo problem has been merged with this one, being one of the main turbo discussion threads.

Another useful discussion on this subject is here: V10 Turbo(s) cutting out

Chris


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