# ITB's and Engine Management



## scmil95eg (Mar 17, 2011)

Greetings All, 
I'm new to VWV, but not to ITB's or engine management. I started scrolling around in here and I'm curious about a couple things. These are dumb, noob questions I'm sure, but: 

A. Why is Megasquirt so popular here? Price? With the miriad of management options for Japanese cars, I'm kinda surprised to see everyone running MS in the VW world. I guess I was expecting to see jumper harnesses or adapters to make other systems work... No offense to MS or anything. 

B. Whay are motorcycle ITB's so popular? Price again? I understand why people go this route to some degree, but motorcycle ITB's are designed to work on smaller displacement engines that make power way higher in the rpm range than a VW does; you're just experiencing a fraction of the individual runner benefit. Optimum throttle size, runner length, and runner profile are critical for power with ITB's. It just seems like if you're going to go through all the time, money, and effort, it would be worth doing right (if possible). 

Please pardon my ignorance on these topics, not being familiar with the VW tuning scene, I'm honestly just curious. 

Since this is my first post here - my name is Scott, I worked at Kinsler Fuel injection for the last 10 years and started the Honda ITB program there. I'm no longer at KFI, but I still like helping as many people as I can make more power and go faster. I have experience with several management systems, and as an example for question "A" above, I just did a base map for a 84 Mustang using a AEM s2 Civic plug-n-play box. As long as one knows the trigger pattern and firing order - you should be able to make any engine run on any management system. All they do is count teeth. 

My old ITB's: 


















In action:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It's all price mainly. The amount of aftermarket support for the VW brand is pathetic, in regards to EFI or ITBs or anything along those lines. MS has exploded onto the VW scene, and has a ton of reputable resellers who will help with tuning and suchlike. As far as ITBs go, we're limited to a few VERY expensive options, and mostly from overseas, so it's never really taken into consideration. The VW naturally aspirated 'scene' hasn't progressed from the pioneer stage, since it's very expensive to even consider such an option . 

In VW-terms, if you want aftermarket pistons, you've got 3-4 choices, and not a single company out there has taken it upon themselves to R&D different ones (like Endyn or Bisimoto, for example). This is the same across the board, no matter the product you want.


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## psychobandito (Sep 10, 2009)

the guys (like me) who use moto ITBs do it for price. for $100, you can get a complete set of GSXR throttle bodies, with all of the injectors and sensors included. that being said, a set of "fit" itbs for, say a 16v, will run 10X that with no sensors, injectors or ANYTHING. 

megasquirt is also bang for the buck. you can do ANYTHING with it for 300$ and a laptop. can you name one downside to it...


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## scmil95eg (Mar 17, 2011)

> megasquirt is also bang for the buck. you can do ANYTHING with it for 300$ and a laptop. can you name one downside to it...


 I acknowledge that - I wasn't trying to instigate anything negative towards MS, just curious. 

The only thing I would say to someone asking me about MS is: since it is such an open source platform, the learning curve for a beginner/novice tuner is a little steeper vs. other systems. There do seem to be a lot of MS specific questons here... 

Don't get me wrong, I don't have thousands to spend on management either, my delsol was running on Crome (free) before I sold that engine.


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## CorradoVR6pr (Jun 7, 2006)

To the O.P. 

You will get around here just fine... 

and about MS yeah mainly for the price and also the fact that you can use it for anything. 
But mainly I think its because the after market has never provided the VW scene with decent alternatives.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think you get the idea by now, there's just no cheap/free solution for these cars. From 88-92 the EFI was pretty backward (Digifant2) and no one really knew (knows?) how to make good tweaks to the software. That didn't change until Motronic 2.9 from 92-95 and now people are just learning how to self-tune them. In 96 everything went 16bit so the cheap burners/emulators don't even work AND they changed enough hardware to make it tough to convert to the older ECUs (add to the fact that they aren't totally plentiful). 

I do agree that for a total neophyte MS can be a bit daunting. A lot of it has to do with the sheer amount of information out there. MS is designed to be a *learning* tool to get people into programmable EFI for as inexpensively as possible. There are vendors out there that can help people jump start into it, obviously for a price, that will assemble boards, configure firmware/software, make wiring diagrams, etc. If you have a need, there's someone to cater to it, you just have to find them  

Oh and did I mention VW guys are CHEAP! :wave:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Basically, any of the aftermarket suppliers who step up to the plate and show a genuine support for VW products earn lifelong loyalty. It's as simple as that. We just don't have the choices that other brands have, so it's really easy to corner the market on something as simple as EFI selection. 

x2 on the cheap .


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## bomberbob (Sep 19, 2004)

I agree with all so far. I think part of the problem is quantity. Look at the number of aircooled VWs still on the road, track, etc. There is enough enthusiasts to make it worthwhile to spend some research and development money, or keep building established aftermarket parts. The user base of 16 valve watercooled VWs I think is relatively small. Vendors don't want to sink money into a venture that might not turn a profit, let alone break even. There are some suppliers like Bahn Brenner that are supporting the 16 valve community, but there are not a lot. 
Why does it seem like Honda is more easily supported? Maybe there are just more of them (still) on the road? 
Am I wrong?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

bomberbob said:


> I agree with all so far. I think part of the problem is quantity. Look at the number of aircooled VWs still on the road, track, etc. There is enough enthusiasts to make it worthwhile to spend some research and development money, or keep building established aftermarket parts. The user base of 16 valve watercooled VWs I think is relatively small. Vendors don't want to sink money into a venture that might not turn a profit, let alone break even. There are some suppliers like Bahn Brenner that are supporting the 16 valve community, but there are not a lot.
> Why does it seem like Honda is more easily supported? Maybe there are just more of them (still) on the road?
> Am I wrong?


 No I don't think you're wrong. 

As far as MS and VWs go ..... 
1: It is inexpensive, even an MS3/3X with harnesses is cheaper than an AEM P&P and as Paul says VW folks are cheap (I certainly am :laugh. 
2: While perhaps slightly daunting for the neophyte, MS has a HUGE support base that includes the fimware and hardware developers. 
3:Flexibilty.... MS will work with almost anything, drive by wire and direct injection aren't supported but even Motec doesn't support direct injection and DBW is a $1000 add on module. 
4:Tuning Software.... Tuner Studio MS is as good or better than anything out there. It's certainly better than Motec ECU Manager, WinTeC (electromotive), AEM or Haltec.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

B4S said:


> Basically, any of the aftermarket suppliers who step up to the plate and show a genuine support for VW products earn lifelong loyalty. It's as simple as that. We just don't have the choices that other brands have, so it's really easy to corner the market on something as simple as EFI selection.
> 
> x2 on the cheap .


 lifetime loyalty or completely shunned for trying to break even or make a profit! what i mean is that we (vw'ers) are so cheap that when someone comes out with a product that is priced correctly (for the business to make a small profit) we complain that its to expensive and/or "ha i could make that for half of what your charging" so the supplier gives up, stops selling that part and doesnt develop any more, sad really.


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## bimmerboy02 (Oct 2, 2005)

On the ITB thing...our engines have similar bore spacing to the sport bikes, so with a little work to space them or whatever, you have really cheap, quality ITBs. And yes they may be designed for a different application, but throttles are pretty simple. Its a hole with a plate. They happen to be the right size hole for our engines. So you then add velocity stacks or put them on a longer runner and bam there you go, ITBs tuned for our engines. I will say that most people do just weld a small bit on to a cut stock lower manifold, then use couplers to get the throttles on and then just put tiny stacks or filters on them which results in a way too short intake tract. That is no fault of the bike throttle bodies though, just fault in the execution


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