# F23 Frankenturbo exhaust manifold



## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Decided on the F23 and Eurodyne software. What does the exhaust manifold look like? Are there other options, anyone using something dofferent? The one on Frankenturbos website looks like it could use some work. This is what's holding me back from making the purchase.


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## hondss (Mar 23, 2012)

Have you checked with Doug about what manifold you will be getting with the f23?

Relentless v3 is what I'm using in my setup with the f23 and maestro and the car runs great. Tons of power and still not done tuning with maestro.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

No I haven't checked with Doug I only have only looked at what's on the his website.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

What is relentles v3?


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## hondss (Mar 23, 2012)

Pete O. Arguelles said:


> What is relentles v3?


Google is your friend. 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=rele...nt=safari&gws_rd=cr&ei=sqxIUq7EENSl4AP9o4GQBg

That is what you will and should run with the f23. They go very well together. I recommend you get in touch with Doug to see if he is selling these with his f23.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

That E manifold looks like a JBS special. Looks like a tight fit between the engine and firewall. How's fitment with the turbo in that location any pics of it installed? How's the down pipe fit, will the intake hose supplied by FT work? It looks awesome turbo should spool to its maximum capacity with it.


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## hondss (Mar 23, 2012)

Pete O. Arguelles said:


> That E manifold looks like a JBS special. Looks like a tight fit between the engine and firewall. How's fitment with the turbo in that location any pics of it installed? How's the down pipe fit, will the intake hose supplied by FT work? It looks awesome turbo should spool to its maximum capacity with it.


The fit is fine between the manifold and heat Sheild. Attaching thebturbo to the manifold is a bit tricky but very possible. 

Down pipe fits just fine. 

The turbo placement does not change much at all. Everything will work fine. 

Check with Doug for more or exact detail. 

The manifold puts out a ton of power with the f23. My car breaks lose in second gear very easily.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

hondss said:


> Check with Doug for more or exact detail.


We are currently offering the Relentless V3. Meanwhile testing is ongoing for the China-fold we're considering as a new alternative. For technical information on our evaluation of the v3 and China-fold, you can follow this link:

http://www.vwvortex.com/FrankenTT/page38.htm

That thread was inadvertently removed from the 1.8T forum, so we continued with the project and manifolds here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5911922-FrankenTurbo-F23-Project-FrankenTT-is-go!


If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact us directly.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> We are currently offering the Relentless V3. Meanwhile testing is ongoing for the China-fold we're considering as a new alternative. For technical information on our evaluation of the v3 and China-fold, you can follow this link:
> 
> http://www.vwvortex.com/FrankenTT/page38.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks Doug for responding Currently at work will be reading on these manifolds to decide what to get. 
Heres a pic of my engine build so far.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Pete O. Arguelles, really clean setup you have there.

Love the integrated spots for the fuel pressure gauge and the fuel pressure test port (I'm assuming there's a shrader valve under there).

What's that aluminum vacuum lump thing under your intake manifold.

...lots of creativity going on in your build. I love it.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

groggory said:


> Pete O. Arguelles, really clean setup you have there.
> 
> Love the integrated spots for the fuel pressure gauge and the fuel pressure test port (I'm assuming there's a shrader valve under there).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the complements worked hard at it. Yes that is a shrader valve under there. Every fuel rail needs one. These came on mostly 1980s and 90s GM cars. I went to the salvage yard a few years ago and just started unscrewing these off. The later cars were welded, they are getting scarce came in black and silver the cadillacs were mostly silver. 
The aluminum vacuum is a vacuum manifold I made on my CNC. I machined it so it had the shape of the bracket thats attached to the engine and used the stock bolt from the stock intake manifold and it fit perfect and is securely fastened to the engine. This is supplying vacuum to the FPR, diverter and the map sensor for the boost guage inside the car. The map sensor is attached to the right side of vacuum manifold hard to see. I had my machinist buddy make fittings to go from 4an XRP fittings to the smaller hose that fits these 3 items or else I could not have attached such a large hose the them. The 4 an XRP fittings use a too large of a hose.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Missing a clamp on that throttle body hose
I concur with Groggory...:thumbup::beer:


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Twopnt016v said:


> Missing a clamp on that throttle body hose
> I concur with Groggory...:thumbup::beer:


:thumbup::beer: 
Here's what it looks like. Pic is old but car is the same hasn't been driven much at all.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

337 with big brake kit? Wow..never seen that as the 337 had bigger brakes than regular mk4s.:thumbup:


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Twopnt016v said:


> 337 with big brake kit? Wow..never seen that as the 337 had bigger brakes than regular mk4s.:thumbup:


Yes ECStuning STG 5 front and rear. Braking is awesome in such a light car. Had to get used to the pedal feel all over again. 
Bad thing is it's on stock rods and stock clutch.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Pete O. Arguelles said:


> Yes ECStuning STG 5 front and rear. Braking is awesome in such a light car. Had to get used to the pedal feel all over again.
> Bad thing is it's on stock rods and stock clutch.


Nice car man :thumbup:


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Thanks for + comments. It's Frankenturbo F23 now I just need to order it. Here I come Doug.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

After a good bit of road time and performance testing, we've come down to the "ChinaFold" as the best match for our F23 hybrid turbo. It is cast 304 stainless steel with a machined 47mm outlet that's port-matched to the F23's turbine housing inlet. Additionally, both flanges on the manifold are CNC machined to ensure a proper seal - enough so that we recommend no gasket be used between turbo and manifold. Here are some product photos of the manifold and machined turbocharger inlet:
























































Our selection of this manifold was based on several parameters:

Boost responsiveness compared to other alternatives
Exhaust gas handling at high boost levels
Ease of installation


The most critical of these considerations was EGTs. Our testing found this ported manifold to be extraordinarily good in high-boost, high back-pressure duty. In fact, even when subjected to 70psi of back-pressures at the turbine inlet, exhaust flows were so efficient that EGT measurements at the turbine inlet were within OEM specs. Here is an illustration of that testing:










Here are the corresponding data collected at the same time:




















These measurements were taken on a 2.0L displacement engine running 93octane fuel. When water methanol injection is incorporated, we recorded safe EGTs up to and exceeding 80psi of pressures at the turbine inlet. This is markedly the best performance we've seen on any manifold we've tested. These data were enough to satisfy me and our testers that this manifold is the perfect match to our F23 hybrid turbo. So we're happy to announce the ChinaFold is available as an option for purchase on the F23 turbo's configuration page. Price will be unchanged at $349.

Thx everybody.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Hello Doug I will still be ordering this turbo kit soon had to purchase an APR front mount new and some OEM euro HID's from ECStuning. The wife is frowning but ok with it. Thanks for the update the Chinafold does look good.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Is a frankenfold trade-in in the cards? Of course not one for one.

Definitely looks great though and beefy!


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

:thumbup: opcorn:


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## LEBGTIMK4 (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Additionally, both flanges on the manifold are CNC machined to ensure a proper seal - *enough so that we recommend no gasket be used between turbo and manifold*.


Say What?? is it that accurate that no gasket is recommended??? I bet it is a High-end quality exh. manifold!!!
Well done Doug!!! :thumbup:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

LEBGTIMK4 said:


> Say What?? is it that accurate that no gasket is recommended??? I bet it is a High-end quality exh. manifold!!!
> Well done Doug!!! :thumbup:


I was thinking the same thing. The surfaces need to be laser straight to mate up without leaks. Good to hear that Doug managed to get it right. Im interested to know ow the collector issue went with these china folds. Did they have the same issue as the JBS?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

woodywoods86 said:


> Is a frankenfold trade-in in the cards? Of course not one for one.



Im down with this to get rid of the Original F23 manifold I have.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

ejg3855 said:


> Im down with this to get rid of the Original F23 manifold I have.


I am going to make retroactive purchase of these things available at a steep discount to any F23 customer who wants the upgrade. I feel that strongly about the improvement. I can't promise a world more power, but this manifold has the best EGT management I could ask for. It's even better than the "turbine-fold" on the F23T and F23L turbos.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Whats the time frame?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Friday


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Wow the F23 will come machined to mate up with the Chinafold? Now all we need is ceramic bearings in the F23 Turbo.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Pete O. Arguelles said:


> Wow the F23 will come machined to mate up with the Chinafold? Now all we need is ceramic bearings in the F23 Turbo.


I believe there's a company in Australia that does CBB CHRA conversions, and has done one on a K03. It'd be pretty sweet to see what these could do with that :thumbup: I'd imagine surge-ported comp housings would be a must with the violent spool!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

suffocatemymind said:


> I believe there's a company in Australia that does CBB CHRA conversions, and has done one on a K03. It'd be pretty sweet to see what these could do with that :thumbup: I'd imagine surge-ported comp housings would be a must with the violent spool!


yep
http://www.billetturbochargers.com/About_Billet.ews

It's so stupid expensive its not worth it


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## CupraR Carl (Jul 28, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I am going to make retroactive purchase of these things available at a steep discount to any F23 customer who wants the upgrade. I feel that strongly about the improvement. I can't promise a world more power, but this manifold has the best EGT management I could ask for. It's even better than the "turbine-fold" on the F23T and F23L turbos.


Good call on the choice of manifold Doug, very interesting it creates less egts than the Relentless tubular manifolds. Any chance you could let us see a pic of the porting performed in the collector area.


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## H100VW (May 10, 2001)

DMVDUB said:


> yep
> http://www.billetturbochargers.com/About_Billet.ews
> 
> It's so stupid expensive its not worth it


It's pricey for sure and you lads in the States like VFM but now I am running one I like it a lot. No power numbers yet but Anthony's Polo with the same one, went well before the revised tune but hasn't been back on the dyno. 

These are put together in Australia where the labour isn't cheap, Mark says that with the machining of the inlet and exhaust housings, he can build up 5 conventional, turbos to one of these. They would be supplied with a billet actuator too.

The plan on paper, is to have new inlet and exhaust housings cast, with internal profiles to match the wheels. With improved wastegate porting. Vastly reducing the amount of time required to machine and assemble them. 

I don't think it would make economic sense to have one shipped to the US at the moment. Keep an eye on the AUD though, in case it goes through the floor :laugh:

Back to the original discussion

Gavin


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

H100VW said:


> It's pricey for sure and you lads in the States like VFM but now I am running one I like it a lot. No power numbers yet but Anthony's Polo with the same one, went well before the revised tune but hasn't been back on the dyno.
> 
> These are put together in Australia where the labour isn't cheap, Mark says that with the machining of the inlet and exhaust housings, he can build up 5 conventional, turbos to one of these. They would be supplied with a billet actuator too.
> 
> ...


It sounds like at the end it wouldn't be an F23 anymore but a whole new Turbo. I'd be willing to buy if pricing wasnt too bad because it would be one awesome turbo. Group buy???


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

suffocatemymind said:


> :thumbup: I'd imagine surge-ported comp housings would be a must with the violent spool!


With proper management of boost onset, you can avoid both surge and, what's more, a more-dangerous boost spike that puts your internals at risk.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

As for all of the hybrids available the best modification(s) that can be made are, gasket matching the hot side as well as removing any and all overcasting. On EVERY one of these hybrids you'll find that the hot side can be made much more efficient. The only thing you really need to make sure of is not to make any spot too thin, but that'd be hard anyhow. All of the rest of these things are pretty much money wasting mods. A BB K04... Do you really need that extra spool? When it comes to comp surge adding provisions for anti surge to the compressor housing would be worthless. The F23 WILL surge if you don't tune it properly. Needless to say I've never seen one running a "canned" tune that didn't surge. IF you can tune it to use the N75 and not a MBC you can avoid it. I've made the F21,F23,F4T, and the GTT all run flawlessly from the N75 alone. The F23 being the hardest to manage, if you're willing to work with it you can make it run properly. After about 5K miles I'd check to make sure that the waste gate is still at 10-12psi so you don't start chasing your tail. 

As for the topic of manifolds, it goes along with the whole porting strategy. Less restriction will net all of the quicker spool, lower egt and HP you want.


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## H100VW (May 10, 2001)

Pete O. Arguelles said:


> It sounds like at the end it wouldn't be an F23 anymore but a whole new Turbo. I'd be willing to buy if pricing wasnt too bad because it would be one awesome turbo. Group buy???


It's not related to an FT at all, it's a locally produced (at the moment) K03s hybrid. 

Gavin


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

DMVDUB said:


> I've made the F21,F23,F4T, and the GTT all run flawlessly from the N75 alone. The F23 being the hardest to manage, if you're willing to work with it you can make it run properly. After about 5K miles I'd check to make sure that the waste gate is still at 10-12psi so you don't start chasing your tail.


Off topic. Care to enlighent me (us) how *exactly* it is you did that? Im not running a hybrid, but would love to run the N75 again. 

Not sure if you covered it in the maestro thread or not but it seemd to be easy for you when you were 1st playing around with it. You make it sound like it wasnt a challenge when many professional tunes/tuners cannot... PM me if you dont want to talk about it here or ill keep an eye out for the explanation at the maestro thread. 

It would most certainly benefit the community as opposed to bragging rights:thumbup:opcorn:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Off topic. Care to enlighent me (us) how *exactly* it is you did that? Im not running a hybrid, but would love to run the N75 again.
> 
> Not sure if you covered it in the maestro thread or not but it seemd to be easy for you when you were 1st playing around with it. You make it sound like it wasnt a challenge when many professional tunes/tuners cannot... PM me if you dont want to talk about it here or ill keep an eye out for the explanation at the maestro thread.
> 
> It would most certainly benefit the community as opposed to bragging rights:thumbup:opcorn:


PM'd :wave:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> As for all of the hybrids available the best modification(s) that can be made are, gasket matching the hot side as well as removing any and all overcasting. On EVERY one of these hybrids you'll find that the hot side can be made much more efficient. The only thing you really need to make sure of is not to make any spot too thin, but that'd be hard anyhow. All of the rest of these things are pretty much money wasting mods. A BB K04... Do you really need that extra spool? When it comes to comp surge adding provisions for anti surge to the compressor housing would be worthless. The F23 WILL surge if you don't tune it properly. Needless to say I've never seen one running a "canned" tune that didn't surge. IF you can tune it to use the N75 and not a MBC you can avoid it. I've made the F21,F23,F4T, and the GTT all run flawlessly from the N75 alone. The F23 being the hardest to manage, if you're willing to work with it you can make it run properly. After about 5K miles I'd check to make sure that the waste gate is still at 10-12psi so you don't start chasing your tail.
> 
> As for the topic of manifolds, it goes along with the whole porting strategy. Less restriction will net all of the quicker spool, lower egt and HP you want.


I wouldn't say they surge at all. On mkivboost's car that I tuned locally there was no surge present at all. That was tuned with the n75 and ran very well. My car as well had no surge at all. With the vvt enabled I was getting to 25psi by 3200rpms and still had no surge.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

spartiati said:


> I wouldn't say they surge at all. On mkivboost's car that I tuned locally there was no surge present at all. That was tuned with the n75 and ran very well. My car as well had no surge at all. With the vvt enabled I was getting to 25psi by 3200rpms and still had no surge.


Those aren't canned tunes. I said not on N75.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> After about 5K miles I'd check to make sure that the waste gate is still at 10-12psi so you don't start chasing your tail.


:vampire:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I am going to make retroactive purchase of these things available at a steep discount to any F23 customer who wants the upgrade. I feel that strongly about the improvement. I can't promise a world more power, but this manifold has the best EGT management I could ask for. It's even better than the "turbine-fold" on the F23T and F23L turbos.





[email protected] said:


> Friday


whats the good word?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

ejg3855 said:


> whats the good word?


A big stack of boxes from China, baby. That's what. Why do you ask?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

emailed.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

CupraR Carl said:


> Any chance you could let us see a pic of the porting performed in the collector area.


Here you go.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

That's great. This saves hours of porting the opening and massaging down the collector. The metal this manifold is made of is incredibly resilient.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

have you checked the clearance from turbo to runner #3 underside if you are planning on going gasketless?


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## CupraR Carl (Jul 28, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Here you go.


Looks great Doug but do you think the removal of the gas deflector is detrimental, not being critical just curious.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Hey bill. I've been running gasketless and have no clearance issues with the runner. Its a snug fit but it clears.

Also in regards to shaving down the divider you need that with this manifold. I've had it on my car for over a year and have not had any issues with it.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

mine touches.
unmachined on that face also.

beware of supply inconsistencies is what this screams to me


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Double post. Don't know if anyone else has issues on this site with the browser timing out when posting, but it's been happening for me ever since VMG "upgraded" the forum software.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> mine touches.
> unmachined on that face also.
> 
> beware of supply inconsistencies is what this screams to me


I've not seen such a problem with the ChinaFold, and what you're describing sounds like a casting flaw. You might want to check with your supplier to see if the manifold you're sourcing is properly fabricated.


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

*F23*

Ok now that I have the manifold picked out for my F23 install (Chinafold), where can I get the correct software for this turbo. Needs to be Eurodyne Maestro. I have SAI, N249 and EVAP deleted.
I have my APR intercooler and my OEM Euro HID's arrive Tuesday from ECS. :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

You can bundle the Eurodyne Maestro suite when purchasing the turbo. It works out to a solid discount when purchasing everything together. For more details on that, take a look at the F23 turbo's configuration page. I should also mention that you have the alternatives of selecting tuning bundles courtesy of C2 Motorsports or Motoza Performance. It's nice to have options.

Thx


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

[email protected]o.com said:


> You can bundle the Eurodyne Maestro suite when purchasing the turbo. It works out to a solid discount when purchasing everything together. For more details on that, take a look at the F23 turbo's configuration page. I should also mention that you have the alternatives of selecting tuning bundles courtesy of C2 Motorsports or Motoza Performance. It's nice to have options.
> 
> Thx


Yes it's very nice to have options, was planning on ordering it off Eurodynes site but not anymore. It will all come from Frankenturbo. It will be nice to save a few dollars after spending over 4G's lateley on my 337 not including the turbo and software. Thanks again Doug


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Double post. Don't know if anyone else has issues on this site with the browser timing out when posting, but it's been happening for me ever since VMG "upgraded" the forum software.


yep.
vortex has been glitchy as fcuk since "upgrade"

powered by Iphone ios perhaps - lol


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I've not seen such a problem with the ChinaFold, and what you're describing sounds like a casting flaw. You might want to check with your supplier to see if the manifold you're sourcing is properly fabricated.


same factory doug..
same product

and being CN, likely some consistency issues perhaps.
something to keep a keen eye on however


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> ...being CN, likely some consistency issues perhaps.
> something to keep a keen eye on however


Noted


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## mandeep (Jan 20, 2011)

here a few pitcures i took today of my ported f23 and chinafold manifold doug sent me. (thanks doug). will be fitting it all in car trm


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Looks awesome!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The Relentless V3 looks to have held up well. How many miles on it?


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## mandeep (Jan 20, 2011)

about 500 miles. quite alot of dyno pulls. some quater mile runs and a few track laps . but this manifold feels oem and looks very easy to fit. plus the porting is a work of art


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

mandeep said:


> here a few pitcures i took today of my ported f23 and chinafold manifold doug sent me. (thanks doug). will be fitting it all in car trm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mandeep (Jan 20, 2011)

everything is fitted up now. will get some photos up. im running standalone megasquirt mangement


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## Marshmallowgti (May 29, 2008)

Just got myself an F23 going into my 1.8T mk2 swap. I was exploring all alternatives for exhaust manifolds for the F23. Seems that there wasnt to many options out there. Ended up hitting up the boys at relentless seeing as I heard rumors that they were coming out with a V4 manifold soon. They agreed to send me one to test install and do some pulls and get some data on. So for anyone out there looking to possibly run the new V4 when it comes out, I will hopefully have some data and impressions soon to post back and hopefully open up more options for exhaust manifolds for the F23. Below are some pics the guys over at XS-Power sent me. I will report back as soon as I have the manifold with first impressions, build quality, material quality, fitment etc. and also some hard data when I get that far.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marshmallowgti said:


> Just got myself an F23 going into my 1.8T mk2 swap. I was exploring all alternatives for exhaust manifolds for the F23. Seems that there wasnt to many options out there. Ended up hitting up the boys at relentless seeing as I heard rumors that they were coming out with a V4 manifold soon. They agreed to send me one to test install and do some pulls and get some data on. So for anyone out there looking to possibly run the new V4 when it comes out, I will hopefully have some data and impressions soon to post back and hopefully open up more options for exhaust manifolds for the F23. Below are some pics the guys over at XS-Power sent me. I will report back as soon as I have the manifold with first impressions, build quality, material quality, fitment etc. and also some hard data when I get that far.



I would'nt trust the copper turbo to manifold gasket. They blow out
Will you be logging egt's @ turbo on this and what is your baseline to compare to?

I predict it will struggle on egts....

good luck testing. I look fwd to seeing how you get on.


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## Marshmallowgti (May 29, 2008)

badger5 said:


> I would'nt trust the copper turbo to manifold gasket. They blow out
> Will you be logging egt's @ turbo on this and what is your baseline to compare to?
> 
> I predict it will struggle on egts....
> ...



Thanks. I hope to provide some useful info for everyone. Regardless of good or bad, but for the sake of having the info available to anyone thinking of purchasing the new V4 manifold. Baseline I will be using an audi TT 225 manifold and I will also hopefully get my hands on a frankenturbo chinafold, that way I can provide accurate comparisons across the board with my setup. 

Regardless of everyone's feelings towards relentless products, I am interested and excited to see what this new version of their manifold can do.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marshmallowgti said:


> Thanks. I hope to provide some useful info for everyone. Regardless of good or bad, but for the sake of having the info available to anyone thinking of purchasing the new V4 manifold. Baseline I will be using an audi TT 225 manifold and I will also hopefully get my hands on a frankenturbo chinafold, that way I can provide accurate comparisons across the board with my setup.
> 
> Regardless of everyone's feelings towards relentless products, I am interested and excited to see what this new version of their manifold can do.


I am very very familiar with their assorted incarnations here in the UK.. Suffered them all...

does your car have std egt in turbo to see how it fares? I say this as its an extremely important factor on these K04's and a gauge on efficiency 

Whats your timescale for these tests?

Hope it works out.. Be interesting to compare.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

We tested a 1st-generation prototype of this manifold. I love its design. It's beautiful. But the gooseneck portion of our test unit was under-specced. We sent our test results to Relentless and they immediately accepted them and re-worked things. The resulting unit pictured here shows a lot of promise. I hope to see good things from your research.

dh


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

No offense to anyone here but the "chinafold" looks like it would cause some strange exhaust impulses and would still be restrictive. 

The old school kinetic style looks like it would flow more (I know it's for a different style). Can a log manifold similar to the kinetic design be made for the K04-023 style hybrids? 

On that same note, the equal length tubular seem like they would be the best option to keep EGT / Backpressure down although the price for a equal length manifold that can withstand the high egt's out weighs the purpose of going with a hybrid. $2000 for a excellent manifold to run a hybrid is just dumb.

Maybe a thought for the 023 style hybrids since the envelope keeps getting pushed would be a completely different turbine housing and an external wastegate. This would allow much better designs for manifolds, less back pressure, EGT, and give better boost control at high levels. 

It's not realistic but someone needs to cast a manifold made specifically for hybrid applications that has been tested and revised until it's perfect. After all this time and profit made maybe it's time to stop just hiring the Chinese to copy something and actually engineer / design something.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> No offense to anyone here but the "chinafold" looks like it would cause some strange exhaust impulses and would still be restrictive.


Your "looks" do not match reality however.

In my experience of adapting my own chinafold, I would say no.. The best results ever achieved on hybrid with my version.. egt's superb, power surpassed my expectations.

testing of performance is one thing, priving its durability and consistency of manufacturing is another, and relentless have over all these years failed on both counts spectacularly. for no want of them trying I'll give them that... but damn, how many years does it take to make something repeatable and reliable????


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## Marshmallowgti (May 29, 2008)

badger5 said:


> I am very very familiar with their assorted incarnations here in the UK.. Suffered them all...
> 
> does your car have std egt in turbo to see how it fares? I say this as its an extremely important factor on these K04's and a gauge on efficiency
> 
> ...


Time frame. Hopefully end of March. Providing the weather doesn't go crazy and dump tons of snow on me. Fingers crossed


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## Marshmallowgti (May 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> We tested a 1st-generation prototype of this manifold. I love its design. It's beautiful. But the gooseneck portion of our test unit was under-specced. We sent our test results to Relentless and they immediately accepted them and re-worked things. The resulting unit pictured here shows a lot of promise. I hope to see good things from your research.
> 
> dh


Thanks for the positive outlook Doug. Hoping it fairs well also, I'll be contacting very soon about tuning. We spoke awhile back when I first purchased my F23 from you. I'll be sure to send our previous convo to refresh your memory.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marshmallowgti said:


> Time frame. Hopefully end of March. Providing the weather doesn't go crazy and dump tons of snow on me. Fingers crossed


I'll mentioned it just one more time as its either being "missed" or "ignored".... EGTs... Does your car have egt or will it have it added to this "testing"

I fear your testing regime may have holes and prove inconclusive

Dougs testing having set the benchmark for thorough testing.


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## Marshmallowgti (May 29, 2008)

badger5 said:


> I'll mentioned it just one more time as its either being "missed" or "ignored".... EGTs... Does your car have egt or will it have it added to this "testing"
> 
> I fear your testing regime may have holes and prove inconclusive
> 
> Dougs testing having set the benchmark for thorough testing.


Was not intentionally ignored, responding via mobile and sometimes the text scrolls to far down and I forget to re read. Apologies. The EGT will be added. I will do my utmost best to provide accurate feedback and data. If you feel that what I provide is in "inconclusive" then by all means ignore it. I was given an opportunity to try something out and I am. By all means do the same and provide the conclusive data you feel I might be incapable of providing then. Just trying to do my part and provide some new data on a new product. Stay positive.


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

Good luck with the Franken turdo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marshmallowgti said:


> Was not intentionally ignored, responding via mobile and sometimes the text scrolls to far down and I forget to re read. Apologies. The EGT will be added. I will do my utmost best to provide accurate feedback and data. If you feel that what I provide is in "inconclusive" then by all means ignore it. I was given an opportunity to try something out and I am. By all means do the same and provide the conclusive data you feel I might be incapable of providing then. Just trying to do my part and provide some new data on a new product. Stay positive.


Good luck with the testing.
I've suffered relentless's offerings on customer cars since their v1.... so have a lot of experience of the quality and fitment of what they ship out.. and needless to say, its not a company nor product I would ever advise someone use "without knowing the likelyhood of cracking" and ill fitment.. Many relentless manifolds sold here in the UK... and many issues.. 

Quality and consistency of manufacturing being the serious one.

To put into perspective, relentless sent me direct their QC checked best V3 for me to evaluate.... and it had'nt even been fully welded on the rear of the collector.. Enough Said..

Data will be relative to a baseline.. What baseline will you set and whats your plan for testing etc?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ Admittedly playing devil's advocate, this is coming from the guy that made a pretty compelling case before for welded tubular manifolds surviving the test of time on hybrids with their extremely hot operating conditions. 


Bill I guess learned the hard way that a solid cast manifold is a must for the conditions when looking for performance on a small frame turbo. There is nothing wrong with testing, but the outcome don't mean too much if it can't last. I like your enthusiasm Marshmallowgti, but we've done that dance before for all the V's that preceded this one. Relentless will relentlessly keep trying their failing formula, you're just the new test mule. 




All taken from the older thread about the same topic that turned into a relentless infomercial. It was strongly debated that these welded tubular manifolds were suitable... I guess they're not! 






Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I am not a big fan of the relentless unit. For some reason, I don't see it taking the abuse for too long before cracking. That's just an opinion and not based on anything related to them, but I would not expect it to last (relative) to the abuse ....My 2 cents!





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> That's exactly one of the points I've been trying to make! On a track car that see limited daily duty, the welded tubular units may last a decent amount of time. However, real street duty with constant heat cycling usually inflict some serious beating to that type of exhaust manifold (even the best of them from personal experience).





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Honestly Bill, it's hard to make a case for a V3 of that ... especially when nobody is guaranteed to get the said V3, and coming from a company that knowingly sold unusable products not long ago!
> 
> 
> To me this is as bad as giving money to JBS!





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... but the solution you're proposing is a proven weaker design (much thinner wall, and a collection of short tubes welded to a flange)! Someone wake me up if I'm dreaming, but I fail to see how shaving some material off a good cast core would make it weaker than a welded tubular one. As I said, my plan isn't limited to an OEM unit as a blank, a cast unit is what I will start with, so JBS isn't out of the picture.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> how about we keep things into perspective for a second? Nobody can deny that cast manifolds can crack overtime with the harsh environment they're subjected to, especially when the construction is subpar like the 034 ones... But so does their tubular counterparts, at a much faster rate and percentage.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Let's just agree to disagree on this one and move on! I don't see how someone can make a case for an exponentially stronger cast manifold not able to last, and at the same token argue that a much weaker designed tubular should last the life of the car.


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## Beachbuggy (Jul 6, 2013)

I think I'm one of the few that have seen the new , revised, modified v4.. and I still don't rate or understand the long swan neck they've gone with.. 

Swan neck in my mind is just asking for trouble.. 

It will still be a head off to fit, in more ways than one.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ^^^ Admittedly playing devil's advocate, this is coming from the guy that made a pretty compelling case before for welded tubular manifolds surviving the test of time on hybrids with their extremely hot operating conditions.
> 
> 
> Bill I guess learned the hard way that a solid cast manifold is a must for the conditions when looking for performance on a small frame turbo. There is nothing wrong with testing, but the outcome don't mean too much if it can't last. I like your enthusiasm Marshmallowgti, but we've done that dance before for all the V's that preceded this one. Relentless will relentlessly keep trying their failing formula, you're just the new test mule.
> ...


Eh? Say wha???

If you are replying that to me you are somewhat mystaken.. Never Ever have I said anything nice about a relentless manifold being "suitable"


> surviving the test of time on hybrids with their extremely hot operating conditions.


 << No Way hosay

My own full-race tubular remains intact several race seasons on.. Somewhat higher quality item of course with price tag to match.

For k04 hybrids, the only offering for improved flow over stock has been relentless... JBS's thing was a good attempt, f*cked up by some details of their cast design, BUT, can be made to work well with machining... With their being only one improved over stock offering available it was 'hobsons choice' Not the case now however with the chinafold being machined to make work.


I agree with your comments re


> but the outcome don't mean too much if it can't last


only time will tell.
I predict consistency and quality will again prove to be their undoing.


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## Rene1.8T (Mar 6, 2014)

Hi, I'm new here and I am from holland.
I'm looking for a f23 turbo kit where I still have a few questions about
.I have a JBS manifold bought for as an upgrade to K03S. later 
I want a F23 turbo kit I would that this manifold can use for the F23 turbo or do I really need a k04 audi manifold.What's in the basic kit?
When I'm on the website to check things such as turn for on the original downpipe would I get there than 2 because this kit is in default or is this just the turbo.


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## Marshmallowgti (May 29, 2008)

Just got some updated photos, I will hopefully have the manifold in hand next week and will post impressions of build quality fitment etc. After I return from leaving the country at the end of March I will be getting into everything head on. 

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13009162335/" title="image by Jhumphreys90, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7296/13009162335_03e092a726_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="image"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13009548834/" title="image by Jhumphreys90, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7302/13009548834_ed8d2edda3_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="image"></a>


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Marshmallowgti said:


> Just got some updated photos, I will hopefully have the manifold in hand next week and will post impressions of build quality fitment etc. After I return from leaving the country at the end of March I will be getting into everything head on.
> 
> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13009162335/" title="image by Jhumphreys90, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7296/13009162335_03e092a726_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="image"></a>
> 
> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13009548834/" title="image by Jhumphreys90, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7302/13009548834_ed8d2edda3_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="image"></a>


Wow! I love the finish of that! I'm no fan of shiny, shiny stainless and I'm much more interested in things like the welds. And those look really good too. Way to be Relentless! I'll keep an eye on this as you build the car.

Thanks for posting.

dh


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## mkiv_farfegnugen (Sep 14, 2010)

*Happy!*

Well Doug i have been a very happy camper with your product and services. The only issue i have is that my Relentless manifold didnt last, that being said i am happy that i am getting the new chinafold soon. I am glad you stand 100% behind your products. This is the type of customer service we need. APR and Unitronic have given me the run around when i came time for a tune. i ended up with GIAC ko4-032 tune and couldn't be happier. I know i can get more power out of the unit, i know i can but i wont. I am very happy with about 260hp. The car drove like a dream until the manifold cracked. I should be getting the new manifold soon. Thanks again Doug and everyone from FrankenTurbo. By the way i have 2 more F23 kits i need to buy for some more believers of your products!eace:eace:eace::heart:


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

mkiv_farfegnugen,

Exactly how & where did your Relentless manifold fail? I just got all my FT gear bolted up and operational and I'd hate to have to pull it so soon. 


BW


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Brake Weight said:


> mkiv_farfegnugen,
> 
> Exactly how & where did your Relentless manifold fail? I just got all my FT gear bolted up and operational and I'd hate to have to pull it so soon.
> 
> ...


let me guess at the collector outlet to turbo
(like they pretty much always do)


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## mkiv_farfegnugen (Sep 14, 2010)

Yes. The collector outlet failed. 

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

badger5 said:


> (like they pretty much always do)


In any case of in-warranty failure we will replace the manifold with your choice of Relentless or ChinaFold. The customer above opted for the latter. dh


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## mkiv_farfegnugen (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks Doug. I am happy. Very very happy.

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Breakout Motorsports in upstate NY is fitting an F23 into their shop car. Here are some pix of their progress.





































Brandon at Breakout will handle the tuning. He's going to use a larger S4-sized MAF housing (which we can provide nowadays) and will also be mapping the ECU for a 3bar MAP sensor. Since the car's motor is built, they will be most certainly be dialing in the boost to look something like this:










One important additional note: Breakout's turbo is set to an experimental 14psi of actuator preload. Boost management will retain closed loop control at all engine speeds (thanks to the wider measurement gamut of the 3bar MAP sensor). So we mutually decided to try the more aggressive setting. The turbo is fitted with an EGT probe so performance will be within the limits of acceptable temperatures.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I also have an f23, EGT probe, and rods and pistons. Stock heads, though. What is maximum recommended boost psi and max temps? The graph shows 28ish max boost.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Are you saying the engine's bottom end is built? If so, then I'd say the boost profile above is a good target. The turbo _could_ produce more boost at onset and through the midrange, but you won't see any additional power. Such elevated boost will cause knock and force your timing advance down, negating the raised airflows. Boost in the range of 22-28 is about where to keep things throughout. Your individual hardware and fuel type will play a big role in narrowing that estimate down.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Brute rods, the lower 8.5-1 pistons, and w/m through a USRT TB plate. Just curious what the turbo is good for. Shooting for low to mid 20s psi.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

what software? What injectors? What MAF housing? What intercooling?


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

PM sent. I'm working on a build thread, as well.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A couple of pix courtesy of Breakout Motorsports of their work-in-progress on a TT180 converted to F23 fitment:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Here are pix from another customer running our ChinaFold. As you see, they've fitted bungs to the top of the collector for EGT and back-pressure monitoring. It'll be interesting to see what they find. Tuning will be via Motoza Performance.


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