# APR Stage 1 and MSS springs review (long)



## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

APR STAGE 1: Very impressed!!! I previously had Stasis a while back (before going back to stock) and wow what a difference. Great job APR!!! So here are things I had noticed...

1. Throttle response is more responsive (just like advertised) without the throttle being more sensitive.

2. Amazing power increase with no dead spots and very smooth across the entire range. And this is on crappy 91 octane map. 

3. Thank you APR for leaving the throttle mapping alone in sport mode. Stasis programmed it out and I hated that. Sure it is sensitive, but it does has its uses.

4. Power doesn't drop off nearly as much as stock in the upper RPM range. I used to shift at about 5.5K stock as anything above that and it kind of fell flat. APR has made that much less of an issue. Sure there is still a drop off (as there are on most turbo cars) but a lot less so.

My only complaint is that I have a "rattle" or injector noise in the lower RPM range that was not there stock. It happens only under throttle and stops as soon as you let off the gas. At first I thought something was loose like a shroud or something, but I took one of the guys at 034 for a ride and he heard it said it was mechanical. He said he would contact APR about it, but I have not heard anything as of yet. I don't know if it is a side effect of them adjusting the ignition timing or what, but that is a little disappointing. I am still hoping I can figure out what it is.


MSS SPRINGS: Another amazing upgrade to the TTRS platform!!! So here are my observations thus far with about 150 miles of mixed driving. First off the most apparent thing to me is the driving dynamics. 

1. Almost zero dive with hard braking and even with APR stage 1 no noticeable rear squat. 

2. Very much improved turn-in and most of the understeer is eliminated. At the limit you still get a little push, but just a little. In a tight 90 turn on throttle, you can even get the rear end to step out just a tad. Very impressed. If you want to get a 4 wheel drift going you may still want to get a RSB and put it in the soft setting as it will still understeer at the limit, but it no longer feels like your fun is being killed when pushing it.

3. Ride quality changes are more subtle to me than the driving dynamic changes, but still improved over stock. In non-sport mode the car is more capable and not quite as soft feeling. In sport mode the wash-born feeling is gone, but make no mistake about it, this is still a sport spring and the ride is stout. Not bouncy like most lowering spring, but the compression and rebound are a little more pronounced over stock. 

4. I have not measured the ride height difference yet, but I will soon and post my results. To the eye, I don't see much difference over stock. I still need to get an alignment done so I have no clue how much my alignment is off either.

Who would have thought that you could get so much from just springs on this platform, IMO Audi screwed the pooch with springs on this car. Great job William on fixing that.


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## artemstudios (Sep 7, 2013)

Nice review! Very exciting to hear.. I have APR stage 1 on my TTS and am going to upgrade to MSS springs soon. Reviews like this just get me excited to get them on my car. 

Did you go street or sport MSS package?


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

artemstudios said:


> Nice review! Very exciting to hear.. I have APR stage 1 on my TTS and am going to upgrade to MSS springs soon. Reviews like this just get me excited to get them on my car.
> 
> Did you go street or sport MSS package?


I have the sport springs, as the street version are only for non-magnetic ride cars.

The TTRS comes stock with the magnetic dampers.


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## sc0ttyb (Apr 12, 2007)

TRZ06 said:


> My only complaint is that I have a "rattle" or injector noise in the lower RPM range that was not there stock. It happens only under throttle and stops as soon as you let off the gas. At first I thought something was loose like a shroud or something, but I took one of the guys at 034 for a ride and he heard it said it was mechanical. He said he would contact APR about it, but I have not heard anything as of yet. I don't know if it is a side effect of them adjusting the ignition timing or what, but that is a little disappointing. I am still hoping I can figure out what it is.


I noticed this, too. Wasn't there before. It's kinda like a tinny sound but only does it for lower RPMs. Not sure what it is, but the car still pulls like a freight train.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

sc0ttyb said:


> I noticed this, too. Wasn't there before. It's kinda like a tinny sound but only does it for lower RPMs. Not sure what it is, but the car still pulls like a freight train.


Yes, I knew it wasn't just me who is hearing things!! I also notice this when I upgraded to the new version 2.0 of the tune. Metallic rattle noise occurs mostly between 3k-4k RPM with light throttle action. Once you past 4k the rattle goes away or if you floor it down low RPM it goes away. 

I'm guessing here... Maybe like the variable cam gears are not locked now and possibly making lash noise until they do lock at higher RPM??

Anyway, glad to hear its just not my motor doing it, other than that the new tune pulls pretty strong, wish I had the cash for stage III


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

sc0ttyb said:


> I noticed this, too. Wasn't there before. It's kinda like a tinny sound but only does it for lower RPMs. Not sure what it is, but the car still pulls like a freight train.


What you guys are describing sounds like knock / pinging. You sure it's not that?


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## as350 (Nov 8, 2011)

TRZ06, I installed the MSS sport springs a few days ago and my impression matches yours. I'm surprised at the reduction of squat and dive. In normal mode the MSS springs seem to be able to absorb more and the composure while zipping around is more stable. I haven't been able to experiment much with driving in sport mode but the little bit that I have played with it - this is what Audi should have designed the TTRS to handle in the first place. During the MSS install I also swapped the rear sway bar with the 034 version, so there is much less body roll and combined with the MSS springs and sport mode, it rotates very nicely. I can't wait to take it out on the track next season.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

sc0ttyb said:


> I noticed this, too. Wasn't there before. It's kinda like a tinny sound but only does it for lower RPMs. Not sure what it is, but the car still pulls like a freight train.


Exactly like that sound!! I hope it isn't knocking or pinging. The safeguards are still in place right if that is what it is?

I hope APR chimes in on this.


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## sc0ttyb (Apr 12, 2007)

Marty said:


> What you guys are describing sounds like knock / pinging. You sure it's not that?


I got VCDS and can log. I'm interested to see what kinda timing I'm seeing. Think I'll do that right quick.


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## sc0ttyb (Apr 12, 2007)

Okay, so the vast majority of the time of a WOT pull I logged (in Turbo mode), my timing retardation in any of the 5 cylinders is 0. There is one instance where cylinder 3 went to -8.3 around 6K in 2nd when I was about to shift or was shifting to 3rd. On a couple regular cruising logs things are fine. It's cool out tonight, so that shouldn't be an issue. I get 91 at Costco if that makes any difference.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Marty said:


> What you guys are describing sounds like knock / pinging. You sure it's not that?


It's not knock or pinging ... At least to me, I've put 100 octane and same result. Logged knock with vcds and it seems the same compared to the stock tune. 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk


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## sc0ttyb (Apr 12, 2007)

Optimus812 said:


> It's not knock or pinging ... At least to me, I've put 100 octane and same result. Logged knock with vcds and it seems the same compared to the stock tune.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk


Yeah, to me it sounds similar to exhaust rubbing up against a heat shield but very lightly or almost like a light rasp. Kinda hard to describe it very well.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

sc0ttyb said:


> Yeah, to me it sounds similar to exhaust rubbing up against a heat shield but very lightly or almost like a light rasp. Kinda hard to describe it very well.


Yeah, exactly. 

Good to know it's not pinging or knocking, but still very curious. 

I hope APR can tell us.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

Advanced ignition timing maybe?


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

sc0ttyb said:


> Yeah, to me it sounds similar to exhaust rubbing up against a heat shield but very lightly or almost like a light rasp. Kinda hard to describe it very well.


I did the Stage 2 w/034 DP last Thursday and have the same noise, I thought it might have been coming from some shielding that may have been touching the new down pipe but I got under it yesterday and could not fine anything that would be causing it. I am going to switch to stock tune today to see if it's there as well.


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## sc0ttyb (Apr 12, 2007)

I think I read somewhere that the exhaust flapper is closed and open at certain RPM intervals, even in Sport mode, which I guess is to combat any raspiness from the exhaust at certain RPMs? So I wonder if possibly the flash removed or altered this functionality so that the flapper is now permanently open if you toggle Sport mode? Just grasping at straws now, really.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

As suspected (but I had to try) no noise while in stock tune. 
One thing that I was able to re-confirm, Stage 2 is significantly quicker, better delivery of power throughout the RPM range, I'm really going to enjoy this tune / set-up.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

TunaTT said:


> As suspected (but I had to try) no noise while in stock tune.
> One thing that I was able to re-confirm, Stage 2 is significantly quicker, better delivery of power throughout the RPM range, I'm really going to enjoy this tune / set-up.


Very interesting. It has to be something related to an injector, timing, or ignition advance making that noise. 

I went for a drive up Calaveras Rd. ( for those of you not around here, its a windy mountain road) a little while ago and the noise was very pronounced under load and going up the mountain. I have to say it is a little throne in my side to what is otherwise an awesome tune.

I really hope APR will comment on it sometime soon. 

It does take some of the refinement out of the car.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

FWIW,

I've had the same noise forever.
I have just over 20K on it now. There is a TSB for a noisy transmission mount, which I always figured it was, the tune with the extra twisting probably exacerbates the situation. I planned on eventually going full race mounts anyway so it never bothered me.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

joneze93tsi said:


> FWIW,
> 
> I've had the same noise forever.
> I have just over 20K on it now. There is a TSB for a noisy transmission mount, which I always figured it was, the tune with the extra twisting probably exacerbates the situation. I planned on eventually going full race mounts anyway so it never bothered me.


interesting

The thing is though is I didn't have the noise at all stock. Same with a few others.


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## [email protected] (Mar 25, 2013)

TRZ06 said:


> MSS SPRINGS: Another amazing upgrade to the TTRS platform!!! So here are my observations thus far with about 150 miles of mixed driving. First off the most apparent thing to me is the driving dynamics.
> 
> 1. Almost zero dive with hard braking and even with APR stage 1 no noticeable rear squat.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thorough review. It reminds me of my first week with MSS, I was pretty impressed that a spring set up. Even considering William's unique stacked concept, I just didn't 
see it doing this much. Glad I was wrong I will be putting on the 034 RSB myself very soon. Enjoy!


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

TRZ06 said:


> MSS SPRINGS: Another amazing upgrade to the TTRS platform!!! So here are my observations thus far with about 150 miles of mixed driving. First off the most apparent thing to me is the driving dynamics.
> 
> 1. Almost zero dive with hard braking and even with APR stage 1 no noticeable rear squat.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback and there are a few guys here and at QW that I simply want to just try MSS to form a view and you were one...I hope to also get others on-board soon, the car is simply begging for a balanced/capable suspension setup that retains the factory ‘one touch’ in-dash feature with MagneRide.

The change is not a detraction at all, it adds to what is a great little engine just needing a balanced chassis to shine through.

If you like driving then you will certainly appreciate the enjoyment of a balanced handling car for ages to come.

The point about lack of squat is important as that ensures that the new found power of Stage 1 is put to great use...you can really surprise many higher powered cars when you have that much power in a small package that is also now able to transfer all that power to the tarmac...very addictive and a full tank of fuel goes down too quick when motoring...damn!

As always, thanks for the feedback and am glad we finally got your business.

William


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

as350 said:


> TRZ06, I installed the MSS sport springs a few days ago and my impression matches yours. I'm surprised at the reduction of squat and dive. In normal mode the MSS springs seem to be able to absorb more and the composure while zipping around is more stable. I haven't been able to experiment much with driving in sport mode but the little bit that I have played with it - this is what Audi should have designed the TTRS to handle in the first place. During the MSS install I also swapped the rear sway bar with the 034 version, so there is much less body roll and combined with the MSS springs and sport mode, it rotates very nicely. I can't wait to take it out on the track next season.


Thanks for your feedback and we look forward to your next track visit as you now have a baseline to compare your previous stock setup with MSS.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*MSS Streets vs. MSS sports*



artemstudios said:


> Nice review! Very exciting to hear.. I have APR stage 1 on my TTS and am going to upgrade to MSS springs soon. Reviews like this just get me excited to get them on my car.
> 
> Did you go street or sport MSS package?


We recommend our kits as follows...;

1) Stock non-active dampers on all MK2 TT (8J) thus _your car is *not* equipped with MagneRide_;
- go for MSS Streets simply because these stock dampers seemed happier when we tested Sports and Streets. Sports on non-active dampers were a touch stiffer riding and may not suit all tastes however it does work.


2) Active dampers on all MK2 TT (8J) thus _your car *has* MagneRide_ or you have aftermarket Coilover kits.;
- go for MSS Sports as it works well for anything from daily driving to track use even when you step up to slick tyres on track. Streets works however handling was not as sharp and the ride comfort did not blow us away to mandate a recommendation.
- If the car is track focussed or for weekend track use then MSS Track _Pack _rear kit is a worthwhile upgrade as changeover is only 30-minutes MAX.

I have MSS Track Pack now and after the last track session for this year at end of November I will probably swap over to MSS Sports to see me through winter use.


3) Aftermarket Coilover kits thus Bilstein PSS9/PSS10 or KW v3 on all MK2 TT (8J);
- go for MSS Sports kit rear upgrade however you will need to dial the damper rebound stiffness up one click from MAX and compression a few clicks down all on the rears. 

On the fronts you will need to do same to rebound though leave compression for now This is the setup we have been testing for a while now hence I have not mentioned anything on our web site; FB or forums to date. It is not our focus market though we do have a KW v3 and KW Clubsport equipped cars at our disposal hence the testing.

William


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the feedback and there are a few guys here and at QW that I simply want to just try MSS to form a view and you were one...I hope to also get others on-board soon, the car is simply begging for a balanced/capable suspension setup that retains the factory ‘one touch’ in-dash feature with MagneRide.
> 
> The change is not a detraction at all, it adds to what is a great little engine just needing a balanced chassis to shine through.
> 
> ...


You are very welcome!!! Thank you for all your efforts in making this kit a reality. I am sure the R&D for such a low production car (at least here in the US) was not a cheap endeavor. I mean you aren't dealing with a huge Mustang crowd here.

If you recall my very early posts regarding how I thought for just springs the kit was pricey, but as with a lot of folks that was due to lack of knowledge. In my pursuit of getting stock cars to handle better, both on the 335i/M3 and Corvette Z06 I had, coil-overs and shocks where what they needed and spring kits catered to the "lowering"/"looks" crowd, not the best performance crowd. So right off the bat you have that mentality to overcome.

Its not too often in the car world that spring kits are the best option for best handling and performance.

Thanks to you and your efforts, I have learned that you have to take each car and platform on its own merit as to what it might need to achieve best handling characteristics. 

To anybody on the fence and from a skeptic I will say, I have seen the light.

Again, great job and I will say here and now that this kit is NOT over priced in the least.


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## [email protected] (Mar 25, 2013)

TRZ06 said:


> You are very welcome!!! Thank you for all your efforts in making this kit a reality. I am sure the R&D for such a low production car (at least here in the US) was not a cheap endeavor. I mean you aren't dealing with a huge Mustang crowd here.
> 
> If you recall my very early posts regarding how I thought for just springs the kit was pricey, but as with a lot of folks that was due to lack of knowledge. In my pursuit of getting stock cars to handle better, both on the 335i/M3 and Corvette Z06 I had, coil-overs and shocks where what they needed and spring kits catered to the "lowering"/"looks" crowd, not the best performance crowd. So right off the bat you have that mentality to overcome.
> 
> ...


Very glad your pleased and see the value in what William has put together here. 

This is a custom spring kit that has EXTENSIVE testing/R&D and lots of trial and error. It truly is a kit built for the MK2 platform. This has nothing in common with the lowering/sport springs that are available out there, especially the unique stacked rear spring.

And with Magneride equipped cars, add the BWI damper, which is very advanced and really capable.

It is tough to get across what a bargain MSS really is sometimes....


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

TRZ06 said:


> You are very welcome!!! Thank you for all your efforts in making this kit a reality. I am sure the R&D for such a low production car (at least here in the US) was not a cheap endeavor. I mean you aren't dealing with a huge Mustang crowd here.
> 
> If you recall my very early posts regarding how I thought for just springs the kit was pricey, but as with a lot of folks that was due to lack of knowledge. In my pursuit of getting stock cars to handle better, both on the 335i/M3 and Corvette Z06 I had, coil-overs and shocks where what they needed and spring kits catered to the "lowering"/"looks" crowd, not the best performance crowd. So right off the bat you have that mentality to overcome.
> 
> ...


Yep, R&D is simply a write off...nowt I can do about that right now however what I have learned is invaluable. The stock dampers are more capable than we all realise.

The VW Scirocco kit is also worth noting. That kit is a fit on for VW Golf MK5 and MK6. I will release the VW kits for pre-order this month.

Thanks again for the kind words, makes all the effort worthwhile.

William


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

TRZ06 said:


> interesting
> 
> The thing is though is I didn't have the noise at all stock. Same with a few others.


I have experience this noise on our stage 3 TTRS. I only hear it at 3700-3800 light throttle (on throttle or lifting). I will look into it. We have a car that duplicates the problem, so that's a good start. 

If you'd like to test a possible fix, please PM me your local APR dealer and your Box Code... will be 404Q S0020 or 404R S00101. North America only please. 

Thank you

-Eric


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

RTErnie said:


> I have experience this noise on our stage 3 TTRS. I only hear it at 3700-3800 light throttle (on throttle or lifting). I will look into it. We have a car that duplicates the problem, so that's a good start.
> 
> If you'd like to test a possible fix, please PM me your local APR dealer and your Box Code... will be 404Q S0020 or 404R S00101. North America only please.
> 
> ...



Yup, that's it.

Light throttle revving up between 3-4K sounds like a rattling metallic sound.
Never got worse, and had it since the original V1 flash way back 20K miles ago.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

joneze93tsi said:


> Yup, that's it.
> 
> Light throttle revving up between 3-4K sounds like a rattling metallic sound.
> Never got worse, and had it since the original V1 flash way back 20K miles ago.


Any chance it's the HPFP?


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

After changing the oil in the car the noise was signifcantly reduced. So it is a mechanical noise. 

I suspect the variable cam sprocket or chain noise... or the HPFP. I'll let you guys know more when I do.

-Eric


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## sc0ttyb (Apr 12, 2007)

RTErnie said:


> After changing the oil in the car the noise was signifcantly reduced. So it is a mechanical noise.
> 
> I suspect the variable cam sprocket or chain noise... or the HPFP. I'll let you guys know more when I do.
> 
> -Eric


That would be weird that oil affected the noise. My car makes the same noise only after flashing and only has 1000 miles on it.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

sc0ttyb said:


> That would be weird that oil affected the noise. My car makes the same noise only after flashing and only has 1000 miles on it.


Yeah, that doesn't make sense. 

There obviously has to be a reason that this noise comes about after the flash. And it obviously is induced by one of the parameter changes made. 

I want to know soon.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

It's definitely not oil related, and I don't think he is saying it is, just a hint as to what it might be.
I was a pretty early adopter and have at least 15k+ miles of HARD..HARD driving/racing on the tune and the noise has always been there since V1.
Never got louder, or changed pitch or anything. Always assumed it was an external thing like the notorious tranny mount made worse by the extra twisting. I wouldn't be too concerned about damage, if it was going to happen by now, it would have happened to me, and many others.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

joneze93tsi said:


> It's definitely not oil related, and I don't think he is saying it is, just a hint as to what it might be.
> I was a pretty early adopter and have at least 15k+ miles of HARD..HARD driving/racing on the tune and the noise has always been there since V1.
> Never got louder, or changed pitch or anything. Always assumed it was an external thing like the notorious tranny mount made worse by the extra twisting. I wouldn't be too concerned about damage, if it was going to happen by now, it would have happened to me, and many others.


It would just be nice to know what it is. 

If someone understood what was causing it, then maybe a solution could be found.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

sc0ttyb said:


> That would be weird that oil affected the noise. My car makes the same noise only after flashing and only has 1000 miles on it.


Oil has all sorts of strange effects on the TT-RS engine. It REALLY, REALLY likes fresh high quality oil.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Oil has all sorts of strange effects on the TT-RS engine. It REALLY, REALLY likes fresh high quality oil.


That may be true but mine still makes the same metallic noise after my recent oil change.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

Optimus812 said:


> That may be true but mine still makes the same metallic noise after my recent oil change.


Yup.
I'm 4-5 oil changes deep, and tried 2 different oils, the sound is always there..


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm being told by APR that it's potentially a variable cam gear lash. But not confirmed yet.

I have no clue what that means though.


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## VAGKRAFT (May 2, 2007)

TRZ06 said:


> I'm being told by APR that it's potentially a variable cam gear lash. But not confirmed yet.
> 
> I have no clue what that means though.


Is that ECU related?


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

VAGKRAFT said:


> Is that ECU related?


If that is in fact what it is, yes as they do alter the variable cam timing a little apparently.


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## nitroracerRS (Sep 7, 2016)

Any resolution to this noise?


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