# Car will crank but won't turn over



## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I've been having issues with my car starting up when the engine is cold. It will crank and crank but won't start for awhile. It wll eventually fire up but bog if i give it hard throttle like it's loading up on fuel. Today i was driving and I gave it gas and it died while coming around a corner and won't start back up. I can't hear the fuel pump turn on when I turn the car to the "on" position nor does the relay click. Things i've checked. 

-Power at the fuel pump relay 12.2v with key in "on" position 
-Power at the fuel pump 0.58v with key in "on" position 
-Power at the fuel pump with relay jumped and key in "on" position 12.18v 
-Swapped in a known good relay, same problem 
-Checked fuse for the fuel pump, good 
-Jumping the fuel pump relay, pump turns on 
-Starting car with with relay jumped 
-Ground from engine to ignition coil, cleaned 
-Swapped out ignition coil 
-Battery is new 
-Starter was recently replaced 
-Swapped in known good ecu, nothing changed 
-Timing is on at the crank, cam and dizzy 
-Swapped in another fuel rail, fpr and injectors 
-Fuel pump relay doesn't click (I don't believe) but the load reduction relay does 
-Car has fuel at the rail 
-Has spark at the plug 



I just picked up a noid light to check for injector pulse after work 


Anybody have anything else to try or suggest?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Scan for codes. 

Check spark with an appropriate spark tester. If good, check fuel pressure with a mechanical gauge.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Vagcom happening tonight. What do you mean by an appropriate spark tester? I pulled the plug out of the head and held it up to head and watched it arc? I do need to check the fuel pressure :thumbup:


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Spark tester with an adjustable gap, or 50kv HEI tester.


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## mk2golf14s (May 1, 2009)

Kindve sounds ignition related. Check spark if orange then its weak, blue and its good. If its orange it may need a tune up


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I will look into the things you guys said. 

Tonights cliff notes 

-Tried a new ignition switch, nothing 
-Noid light tells me the injectors are pulsing 
-New cap and rotor, nothing (kind of figured that but had them) 
-Vag-comed and it has zero codes 
-Notciced that the #1 plug wire was arcing 
-With the car cranking and fuel pump relay jumped the power at the fuel pump steadily drops from 12.7v (same as battery with the cranking as well as the power at the fuel pump relay 

Got a new harness from the fuseblock forward, new fuseblock and engine harness.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Check fuel pressure with a gauge.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Do I need to get a special guage/tool for that. Or can I get my own guage and run a hose?


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

Any pressure gauge will work as long as it has a shutoff valve and correct metric fittings (if applicable), so you can test leaks and pressure. Check the intake track, you'd be surprised what dies in there or uses it to live in. Check the exhaust track for blockage, maybe a busted catalytic, and do a compression and leak down test.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Got the car running again last Friday with some new plugs, wires and coil. Was driving it today and it shut off on me again and won't start.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

87veedub said:


> Got the car running again last Friday with some new plugs, wires and coil. Was driving it today and it shut off on me again and won't start.


What kind of coil did you use?

Check for spark again.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Just some aftermarket one I had in my basement. I had to leave the car so I could get back to work. I will be checking spark again after work. :banghead:All I had time to do was:

1. Pop start, nothing
2. Timing is on at the dizzy, crank and cam
3. Battery has 12.55v


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

Clogged cat, leaky fuel injector(s), low compression, leaking combustion chamber....what else.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm thinking fuel pump. I had a friend smack the tank while cranking and it fired up. If I give it hard throttle it will shut off. If i give it light throttle it stays running. It is definately missing when it ran though. I had it vagcomed last night. I'll post up the codes in a little bit.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

Maybe your car needs a match


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Trust me I'm thinking a road flare in the gas tank will fix all my problems. I'll be swapping in a new fuel pump tonight so let's hope that's it.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

So, have you ever done a fuel press check?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> So, have you ever done a fuel press check?


This.

And where is the Vag-Com scan from the other night?


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I have not done a fuel pressure check. Codes from the other night, sorry I don't have my bentley on me to tell you exactly what they are but:

17646
17647
17648
16505
17952
17645
17908
16706
17884
16486
16686


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Did you copy the scan, or just write down the code numbers? In the future, save the whole autoscan. VCDS saves it as a .txt file, that you can email, copy, paste, etc.

Get the definitions here if you don't have them:
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Fault_Codes


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I copied the scan but it's on my friend's laptop. I'll have him email me the file.


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

What codes if any have come back since you cleared them?

The 16706 is a bad crank sensor and will cause your car to crank but not start, die while driving and not start until sitting a bit. Replace the sensor and your starting and stalling issues should be resolved.

17645-17648 are all fuel injector codes. Either bad wiring, ecu, or possibly stored while trying to start the car with harness disconnected.

17884 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump: Malfunction / Insufficient Vacuum
16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF/G70): Signal too Low
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

Deal with your crank sensor first, replace it because you wouldn't get anywhere with a no start situation. Then deal with the other codes because the engine will surely run although not the smoothest until you've dealt with the rest of the codes.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes. Replace the crankshaft sensor, and check the fuel pump relay.

Then clear all the codes and see what, if anything, comes back.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Alright, got the car running again with a new fuel pump, fuel filter and plugs again. Still has a bad misfire. Got it vagcomed this morning and only had a cylinder 2 misfire. I swapped plugs/wires between 1 and 2 to see if the misfire would follow and it is still in cylinder 2. Also the car now shuts off if under load and given throttle???


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

87veedub said:


> Alright, got the car running again with a new fuel pump, fuel filter and plugs again. Still has a bad misfire. Got it vagcomed this morning and only had a cylinder 2 misfire. I swapped plugs/wires between 1 and 2 to see if the misfire would follow and it is still in cylinder 2. Also the car now shuts off if under load and given throttle???


 Edit: The "old" plugs had less than 500 miles on them and were soaking wet with gas and kind of oily


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

If it wasn't a new coil, maybe replacement is bad if you are still misfiring. 

Did you replace crank sensor? Is it OBD2? If it's dying when giving throttle, try a throttle body alignment with VAG-COM: 
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/throttlebody.html 

When I was diagnosing a bad crank sensor a long time ago it would keep stalling after driving it, but start after sitting a bit. I could start it back up and let it idle for as long as I wanted, but as soon as I hit throttle it would die.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

zero. said:


> If it wasn't a new coil, maybe replacement is bad if you are still misfiring.
> 
> Did you replace crank sensor? Is it OBD2? If it's dying when giving throttle, try a throttle body alignment with VAG-COM:
> http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/throttlebody.html
> ...


 I guess I could try a known good coil from a friend and no I did not replace the crank sensor. Wouldn't that throw a code? Yes it is obd2 and that is a great idea on the alignment. It stalls when it's under load with the throttle like it's getting too much fuel and putting the spark out. If it's idling and a give it a quick hard punch with the throttle it will stall but if I ease into it, it wont.


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

87veedub said:


> no I did not replace the crank sensor. Wouldn't that throw a code?


 Yeah, you said it was throwing 16706 (P0322), which is a bad crank sensor. It might not come back for awhile or until it dies and doesn't start again until sitting. When I had one go bad it threw same code but I mistook it for the engine speed sensor code that's thrown when you scan with engine not running (00513). Cleared them and kept troubleshooting. Took a few more times of it stalling before it logged it again and I realized it wasn't the typical engine speed sensor code you can ignore.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Hmmm I guess it's worth a shot. I also thought that I wouldn't have spark if the cps was bad?


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

Depends on how failed it is...you can read the resistance on pins 67 and 68 at the ECU connector or on two of the pins on the end of the sensor and it should read 500-700 ohms or it's said to be bad. I'd test it before replacing.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I will definately check that out. What do you think would be causing it to be getting too much fuel?


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

Bad MAF could be the cause of that...The 16486 is for that. 
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16486/P0102/000258


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I already tested the maf and it tested good :thumbup: 
Edit: The reason I had most of those codes are because of things that I disconnected


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## D3hd3nd (Jun 18, 2008)

Have you tried a new VSS (vehicle speed sensor also known as crank speed sensor). I had the same problems as you and that was my problem after i had tried everything else, give it a go, it's kind of a pain to get to. It's right behind oil filter housing :thumbup:


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

D3hd3nd said:


> Have you tried a new VSS (vehicle speed sensor also known as crank speed sensor). I had the same problems as you and that was my problem after i had tried everything else, give it a go, it's kind of a pain to get to. It's right behind oil filter housing :thumbup:


 Vehicle Speed Sensor and Crankshaft Position Sensor (AKA Engine Speed/RPM/Impulse Sensor) are two TOTALLY different things with completely different functions. Think about the names


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Yeah I ordered a CPS today. It should be here tomorrow morning. I'm really hoping that this solves my issues. I'm losing motivation and getting beat down by this thing. Keep me motivated fellas!!!


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Receieved the crank and coolant temp sensor today will be putting them in tomorrow. :thumbup:


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Crank sensor didn't do the trick


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

87veedub said:


> Crank sensor didn't do the trick


 I wouldn't have replaced it unless the old one was reading out of range. It's probably still the coil with the misfiring.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Agreed but what's done is done. What do you think the issue is with the car running for awhile and then shutting off and eventually not starting again? If I put new plugs in the car will start again but still have the misfire. I'm thinking I'm getting too much fuel. I replaced the fpr with known good and swapped in a different fuel rail and injectors...


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

87veedub said:


> What do you think the issue is with the car running for awhile and then shutting off and eventually not starting again?


 That's typically the crank sensor, but I had a small crack in a coil that acted similar. It would start bogging out while driving, misfire, die and not restart until sitting until the coil eventually died entirely. I'd just mist everything at night and check for arcing.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

I went back over this whole thread again. 

You said you had the MAF tested. How? 

Also, you said you installed a used coil that you had already. Verify spark strength.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

zero. said:


> That's typically the crank sensor, but I had a small crack in a coil that acted similar. It would start bogging out while driving, misfire, die and not restart until sitting until the coil eventually died entirely. I'd just mist everything at night and check for arcing.


 I'm going to do the mist test tonight. I just have to get it running again which will probably happen with doing spark plugs,again... 


Anony00GT said:


> I went back over this whole thread again.
> 
> You said you had the MAF tested. How?
> 
> Also, you said you installed a used coil that you had already. Verify spark strength.


 I don't remember the procedure 100% but we hooked up my multi meter with safety pins and probed the sensor and checked for resistance at idle, 1500rpm and 2500rpm. We got the correct readings we needed to. How might I go about checking spark strength? I'm a noob when it comes to some things.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Get a spark tester with an adjustable gap to make sure you've got strong spark. 

You can't check a MAF properly with a multimeter, you need a scan tool or scope, scan tool being the cheaper and easier method. Do you have a scan tool capable of displaying a datastream.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Anony00GT said:


> Get a spark tester with an adjustable gap to make sure you've got strong spark.
> 
> You can't check a MAF properly with a multimeter, you need a scan tool or scope, scan tool being the cheaper and easier method. Do you have a scan tool capable of displaying a datastream.


 I'm assuming I can rent one from an Autozone, Advance etc... 

Will Vag-com be capable of such?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes, VCDS capable of dealership-level diagnostics. 

You _should_ be able to get a MAF reading with generic OBDII, but generic doesn't always work so well on VAG cars.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

I have access to VCDS but I have no clue if he's is capable of dealership diags.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Well the software can only be as capable as the user  

Post up a scan when you get it. Lets see what the modules have to say for themselves.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Would I be looking into measuring blocks or values I'm assuming? Also, I swapped in new plugs once again and the car fires up. Keep in mind that the old plugs only had about twenty minutes of drive time on them?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes, watch measuring blocks for MAF readings (g/s), note where it is at idle and at a WOT run to redline in 2nd or 3rd gear as engine approaches redline. 

Also note/log Lambda correction values.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Will do. Also, do you have any clue about me having to replace spark plugs that quick to get it to start again? Also, should I check out measuring blocks for the o2? I'm also going to do a throttle body alignment


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

If it's dumping fuel they're fouled. 

Lambda = O2.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

That's what I'm thinking as well but I'd like to get confirmation via vagcom before I just throw more money at this car. What values should the o2 read and I want to check the upstream sensor correct?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Is this an ABA engine?


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Yes 1996 aba golf. :laugh: Looking back I don't think I stated that at all


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Start with blocks 037, 025, and 027. 

And you need a service manual


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Anony00GT said:


> Start with blocks 037, 025, and 027.
> 
> And you need a service manual


 I have a bentley I didn't think it told you anything about measuring blocks.:laugh: What is what? 

037 
025 
027


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

You'll see when you get into VCDS.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Where at in the Bentley does it tell me what is what for measuring blocks?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Honestly, I don't know. I use a combination of AllData and Mitchell for service info, but that's not going to work for the DIY'er. 

There might not be a list per se, there is no such list in either of the above sources either. Instead, the diagnosis instructions tell you what block(s) to watch for a given condition. VCDS does have label files though


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Alright I'll mess around with it. I'll check out the three that you requested and get logs for them so I can post them up here :thumbup:


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Well it ended up being a faulty ignition coil as someone stated earlier. I checked for good spark and it wasn't there so a friend of mine dropped off a used OEM coil and it fired right up and had no misfire. :banghead: Once again I feel like an idiot for not checking it again but the car is running correctly. :thumbup: Thank you for the help guys :thumbup:


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## roadsterred (Feb 25, 2010)

What is the fuel pressure reading at the fuel rail? The reading should be a minimum of 36 psi with the engine running. Also, with the engine running, disconnect the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator and the fuel pressure should rise to 44 psi.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

roadsterred said:


> What is the fuel pressure reading at the fuel rail? The reading should be a minimum of 36 psi with the engine running. Also, with the engine running, disconnect the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator and the fuel pressure should rise to 44 psi.


This was good when I tested it. Problem is solved it twas a bad aftermarket coil


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

And it died again. If I give it throttle it shuts off.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Codes? Fuel pressure? Vacuum leaks? MAF operation?


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

Did you try a TBA yet? Maybe your throttle body is bad.


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## 87veedub (Oct 22, 2007)

Anony00GT said:


> Codes? Fuel pressure? Vacuum leaks? MAF operation?


 No CEL but haven't had a change to vag it yet. Didn't see any vacuum leaks. My friend is bringing me another coil, maf and throttle body. Didn't check for fuel pressure either. The car broke down and I had to get home in time for my son to get dropped off from the baby sitter. 


zero. said:


> Did you try a TBA yet? Maybe your throttle body is bad.


 I have not done the TBA yet. As soon as my friend with VAG is available this will happen. :thumbup:


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