# GIAC, Timing Bumping, and Water/Meth



## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

Would-be water/meth novice: I've got a 2001 Audi TT 180Q. ATC block with a K03 on a GIAC 93 octane file. Additionally, I also have a 42 DD down pipe n' cat-less test pipe, a Forge P007 D/V, FMIC, and WakBox intake w/ K&N panel filter.

Water/Meth seems like the next step. I was leaning to the Devil's Own MAP controlled kit that they sell for transverse 1.8Ts and using the washer fluid tank (w/ that kit, I assume I wouldn't have to worry about nozzle size, the kit will have what I need n' I'd also run it post-TB with the throttle spacer and Devil's Own in-house solenoid) (or would a regular check valve from else where *that wouldn't need electrical power* suffice?). 

Because one of the greatest advantages of running W/M is additional timing, I wanted to inquire as to what do GIAC chip-users have to do to increase timing while running W/M. Is there still a power increase from just lower IATs before you start messing w/ the timing?

My friend runs it on his A4 1.8T. He also has GIAC and bumped the timing _*on top*_ of what GIAC already added with their K03 chip. Car's a real stump-puller. I'll pick his brain since it's been as such w/o blowing for much time now, but there's plenty of other brains here too.


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## RadRacer513 (Nov 1, 2010)

Go with a MAF kit not MAP. The MAP kit wont react fast enough with our small k03s. You could see power gains with no tune, but only if timing pull is so bad right now that you're losing power. If you put it post TB you're also doing post IAT sensor so the sensor wont see the now cooler air, so it wont increase timing on its own. A check valve SHOULD work, but they all leak slightly. If you want to be safe, just get a solenoid. They're not hard to wire up. I can't help with upping the timing, but you could most likely just run lemmingwinks and bump it up there.

Also, you might wanna look into finishing up the exhaust. DP is a good place to start, but for best performance do the whole exhaust (unless Audi's have free flowing exhausts from the factory, idk)


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

I was told the rest of the exhaust wouldn't amount to more than 6 or 7 hp on the top end (though I don't know if it increases more in the low or mid range). I'll do it probably, but after I do the water/meth system.

I was told that going MAF-based meant that you'd lose injection regulation if/when the MAF starts to go bad. I've also been said mounting it pre-throttle body meant I could damage the electronic throttle body. 

I heard that mounting it further down the intake tract (like I/C plumbing) actually lets it atomize better. But there's a trade-off: further down the tract cools the air-charge more, but doesn't raise your octane as much as post-TB.

I suppose if that's true, mounting the nozzle would depend on how you'd be using the water/meth. If you were going to chill the intake charge and let the ECU "add" (not pull as much) timing, pre-throttle would be where to place it.

If you were going to bump your own timing as if running your own "race file", post-throttle would be preferable for maximum octane (and knock prevention). 

If I honestly didn't have to worry about the throttle body, then that'd mean less stuff I'd have to get like the throttle space and solenoid (which is good, keeps it simple). I've heard and read both accounts of people saying they've run meth pre-throttle with no issue and others say they had to replace their throttle body (one guy sai three times!), so it's diffcult to say if the issue is for-sure or not.

Edit: if you have a specific chip (like my GIAC tune), is their a specific way to bump timing even more for each chip? Or is something like Lemmiwinks the way to bump timing on the 1.8T motor for any tune?


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

Additional question: Devil's Own includes two nozzles in their kit - D03 & D07.

Which of those should I utilize if I mount the nozzle post-throttle body with their 16-psi crack check valve utilizing USRT's throttle body spacer for use with my FMIC-and-3" down pipe-equipped GIAC K03 tune setup (whoo, mouthful).


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2011)

Just a recommendation, It seems like you are going to utilize only one nozzle. The nozzle post throttle body would suppress your detonation in each one of your cylinders allowing you to run greater amounts of boost and compression. Allows for maximum power output while substantially increasing overall engine reliability. When implemented correctly it provides benefits similar to race fuel. 

When a nozzle is mounted post intercooler the droplets absorb heat from the intake air, the droplets start to evaporate causing the intake charge to be cooled further.

If you were thinking its one nozzle or the other here is a solution for you dual nozzle mount package. USRT also carries our line of Throttle Body Flange Upgrades

If you aren't set on a kit, I would recommend a Snow Performance Stage 2 Kit  Nozzle size is also crucial. You could either be under powering your engine or drowning it out from simply to much fluid. I can help you figure out the correct nozzle sizing that would give you best possible results


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## RadRacer513 (Nov 1, 2010)

What he said, he'll help ya out with everything ^^^

And I was gonna recommend a dual nozzle setup too. I'm running water purely for cooling purposes before the TB (right after the intercooler) but for the best of both, do a dual nozzle setup. Put the first nozzle right after the intercooler and the 2nd right after the TB. This way it'll atomize and remove the heat with the first and also bump the.octane nicely with the second. And most likely a 50/50 mix will be beat for that. MAF based will cause problems if the MAF goes bad/ how many MAFs have you had go bad? It gives a better and quicker response to the air flow than a MAP based controller. Atleast, it does with these small turbos. And I've heard both about the TB too. It seems most that had problems had it either fairly close to the TB or were using wiper fluid. I've been running mine for a month now with no problems. IMO, if you get it far enough away that the mix fully evaporates, then you wont have any problems. Running a smaller nozzle or higher psi pump makes that even easier by allowing to to atomize better. I'm running a 180cc/m at 150psi, which puts me around 2.8gph. All the calculators told me to use a 3 or larger


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

One of the two guys at my local Audi/VW specialist (only fools n' $$$ kings go to dealers) runs a MAP based setup on his B5 A4. K03 turbo, GIAC software, down/pipe test pipe, FMIC, and more timing on top of what GIAC adds (Lemmiwinks? I don't know, but if that's the only way, I guess so).

He runs a single nozzle setup post throttle body. Intake Air Temperature readings should still drop because, even mounting post throttle, the spacer still mounts the nozzle pre-IAT sensor (but I suppose that w/o greater distancing and intake length, they don't atomize as much, right?).

Seems to operate fine on his setup (n' these cats know their stuff, _really_ know). They recommended a MAP-based kit because when MAFs _do_ go, there's little warning other than the symptoms that have to be diagnosed and could mean other things until they're eliminated.

Additionally, w/ more timing added that depends crucially on the Water/Meth, a slowly dying MAF can impede any injection and could put your mill in jeopardy (or so I was told). 

I've ridden in his car and it pulls good and smooth (tree-pulling status). His A4 is FWD and my TT's Quattro. We both have K03 turbos (I don't know if the stock longitudinal turbo is bigger than the stock transverse turbo - like K04-015 vs. K04-001) and similar mods. Only thing he has that I don't is the meth. I get him off the line and then he reels me in (after he stops spinning).

Since that's my in-person experience with water/meth injection (and it's pretty successful for a while now), I'd like to just imitate it. 

I was considering the Devil's Own 2.5 Bar Stage 2 kit for 1.8Ts. It uses a one-wire hook-up to the MAP sensor (much like my friend's Snow Performance kit - not sure what specific one he has). I was planning to mount it with a feed to the windshield wiper fluid tank and mount a single nozzle post throttle using a USRT throttle plate. 

My max spike is 19 PSI on full pulls and under max load (so I won't get that in every gear all the time). I'm at 10 psi around redline. My K03 sucks through a modified air box with a K&N panel filter and then sends it to a FMIC. I'm also running a 3" down pipe and cat-less test pipe. If I utilize my setup like he does, which of the two supplied nozzles should I use: the D03 or the D07?

thank you for your insight, I wasn't getting too many replies!


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