# Widebands - LC-1, MTX-L, or other brand.



## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

Still wiring up my Megasquirt System - V3 ms1-e, and in the market for a Wideband.
What's your thoughts, Innovate LC-1 or MTX-L. I really like the MTX-L but want some input before I purchase one. Or maybe AEM, 14point7, whats everyone using and why.

And with or without a gauge, I'm thinking I don't need a gauge.


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## Jimmys2.5 (Oct 15, 2006)

I'm using an LC-1 Super easy to install and use so far.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Stay away from the MTXL. I've been having issues of late with innovate products and plan on switching to 14 point 7.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

care to explain your problems?

i've recently bought an MTX-L kit (havn't installed it in anything yet)


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

weejunGL said:


> care to explain your problems?
> 
> i've recently bought an MTX-L kit (havn't installed it in anything yet)


They always read .5 AFR leaner in MS than on the gauge
They lose calibration (this cost my old boss a race motor)
Sensors rarely last more than 5000 miles before acting up (E8 code on the gauge) and yet when connected to a different brand controller they work perfectly for years.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

14point7 Spartans are great if you don't need/want the gauge. Too many people want it though, so lots of mtxls heading out. 

Jeff: did you measure voltage at the ms to check the afr? On one install I saw an offset but compared to o2 input voltage it was right. Ended up being it didnt like the engine ground location on a separate lug. Moved the mtxl ground to the same lug, cured.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

I have a 14point7 JAW unit that is 5-6 yrs old and never had an issue with it or the sensor. If it ever fails I will be getting a Spartan.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> 14point7 Spartans are great if you don't need/want the gauge. Too many people want it though, so lots of mtxls heading out.
> 
> Jeff: did you measure voltage at the ms to check the afr? On one install I saw an offset but compared to o2 input voltage it was right. Ended up being it didnt like the engine ground location on a separate lug. Moved the mtxl ground to the same lug, cured.


Yeah I have tried everything I could think of on 6 MTX-L installs and they all read .3-.5 AFR leaner in MS. ( I ALWAYS put all of my MS related grounds to the same lug)


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## pistol-mcgee (Sep 20, 2011)

i run a MTX-L because it was cheap and i wanted something to double check my carb tuning. seems to work well but i dont have any way to check it really.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

well. that makes me think a little.

i was going to use the MTX-L for my 16v turbo engine..

the sensor should be good sh-it. are you sure that the sensor goes bad or does the controller kill the sensor? the bosch sensor is a commonly used part.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

weejunGL said:


> well. that makes me think a little.
> 
> i was going to use the MTX-L for my 16v turbo engine..
> 
> the sensor should be good sh-it. are you sure that the sensor goes bad or does the controller kill the sensor? the bosch sensor is a commonly used part.


The sensors are still good just not when used with the MTX-L


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

Prof315 said:


> Yeah I have tried everything I could think of on 6 MTX-L installs and they all read .3-.5 AFR leaner in MS. ( I ALWAYS put all of my MS related grounds to the same lug)


are you grounding at the battery or on the engine?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

On the engine block always.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

No problems with MTX-L here. Reading not matching in the MS is a voltage offset, plain and simple. You can just offset it in the software to fix it if you can't track it down. No problems here with them hooked up to a Link / Vi-pec / Motec. 

We run the one in our dyno mule all the time on lead- no issues with sensor life. 

I gave up on the old LC-1's- communications are too much of a pain in the butt with the crappy serial port setup. They do have a replacement coming though if you do not want a gage.


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

My project car has a NA all motor 16V and I don't think I really need a gauge, so based on what I've read by checking all these out, I'm gonna get the 14point7 Spartan.

AEM Gauge Type Wideband UEGO Controller Module - Air Fuel Ratio Kit - w/Sensor - 207.00 

14point7 - Spartan - 105.00 (gauge offered for 50.00 extra)

LC-1 Standalone System (no gauge) with sensor – $199

LC-2 Wideband controller w/sensor - 189.00 (without gauge)

Innovate MTX-L gauge - sensor - controller - 199.00

NGK Powerdex AFX - Air Fuel Ratio Monitor Kit - Wideband O2 - w/ NTK Sensor - 248.00


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The AFX is the best out of that list to tune with, especially cars where you want to dial an accurate rich AFR (like E85/meth). The only downside is the lack of lean range.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I still run my LM1 that I hacked apart to make the LCD screen remote (along with the LMA3 aux box), LOL. I have always had MS read about .2-.3 off and had to adjust in software. I can assure you that it is not a ground offset in my situation, but I believe the LM1 is showing correct and that there is an issue in the analog output channel or software, MS. Also, the LM1 (unlike the LC1) has an isolated sensor ground from the main and I ground that right to the MS ground(s). Can't explain exactly, but just dealt with it via software. 

Still on my same orig sensor and still calibrated perfect. going on about 6 years now and probably 50k mi.

The LM1 was one of best products ever made IMO. IF I had to buy new, I would probably go with the LM2 or the NGK. The NTK is a better sensor (more resilient) IMO


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## machschnell (Mar 21, 2000)

*mtxl*

I ran an LC1 with the 034 motorsports ECU on my 16v turbo when I bought the car. I wanted the add'l gauge functionality of the MTX-L and found a good deal on a lightly used one from a vortexer. Swapped it in earlier this year and have done two track days, street driving and really have no complaints. 

My thoughts on the AFR being off that some have mentioned, if you read over the 034 ECU manual and the Innovate manuals (yes I read manuals! omg) and look up this issue on the motorgeeks boards sponsored by 034 having a good common ground for the ECU and the MTX-L or whatever you are running is important. Also setting the voltage ranges on the wideband input to your ECU are important as mentioned. Then setting that range in your ECU to bring it all together.

As to the O2 sensor failures, the Innovate manual specifies a "break in" and calibration of the sensor on a schedule depending on how you use it (racing, forced induction, etc.) and some caveats about leaving the ignition on for an extended time which preheats the sensor and then starting the car can shock the sensor and damage it. Having good reliable voltage levels to the ecu and mtx-l as well as how you install the sensor in the exhaust system obviously has an effect too. There may be some other "dont's" as well...


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

I've used an LC1 in the past and wasn't too impressed with Innovate.

I had a JAW and loved it.

I currently have a UEGO, and it's okay. My main issue with it is that it is SLOWWWWW. There's about a half second delay on reactions from it in my datalogs.

If I buy another that needs a display, I will probably buy a PLX devices unit. If I don't need a display, it's hard to beat the Spartan.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

I put an LC1 on my carbed 16V. Not impressed. I ended up tuning old skool.


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

I have been using MTX-L for about a year now. So far it works great. When i had my car dyno tuned, the MTX-L was as accurate as the dyno AFR system.


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The AFX is the best out of that list to tune with, especially cars where you want to dial an accurate rich AFR (like E85/meth). The only downside is the lack of lean range.


Yeah it just reads up to 16.0


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## starksan (Mar 30, 2013)

Has anyone tried Stack Wideband AFM? I'm about to buy one for my R1 carbs setup and would appreciate any input.


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## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

Prof315 said:


> Yeah I have tried everything I could think of on 6 MTX-L installs and they all read .3-.5 AFR leaner in MS. ( I ALWAYS put all of my MS related grounds to the same lug)





starksan said:


> Has anyone tried Stack Wideband AFM? I'm about to buy one for my R1 carbs setup and would appreciate any input.


I have the mtxl with r1 carbs


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

PapioGXL said:


> I've used an LC1 in the past and wasn't too impressed with Innovate.


same, and ive installed lots of them, but it seems like a decent option if you dont want a gauge... im a big fan of the AEM units when you want a gauge. and they dont require constant babysitting/calibration like the innovate stuff.


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## nuts4boosting (Jun 30, 2006)

Guys, sounds like a few of you really know your stuff with widebands. I'm having some trouble with my LC-1, if any of you could help me out I'd really appreciate it! Sorry for the thread jack as well :beer:


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6872269-Innovate-LC-1-Troubleshooting


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

nuts4boosting said:


> Guys, sounds like a few of you really know your stuff with widebands. I'm having some trouble with my LC-1, if any of you could help me out I'd really appreciate it! Sorry for the thread jack as well :beer:
> 
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6872269-Innovate-LC-1-Troubleshooting


Replied.


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## Hummdog (Nov 23, 2009)

I have heard more good than bad about MTX-L, was going to get myself an LC-1 but my friend had problems with his.
I went with AEM UEGO wideband because another friend of mine has used one for a few years. I picked it up on ebay cheap, works great, responsive, and very certain it is accurate. Used it to tune CIS and CIS-turbo, cant imagine it would be any different with carbs. 

Took an afternoon to get it all installed. 

It does come with 6-8ft. of length on the o2 sensor cable, I had to bundle the cable behind my dash because it was 2x as long as it needed to be for my application.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Hummdog said:


> I went with AEM UEGO wideband because another friend of mine has used one for a few years.


thats the way id go if i didnt mind having a gauge :thumbup:


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

gonna bump this rather than starting a new thread since it seems relevant...

for all my gripes about the LC1, it looks like innovate recently released an LC2 that has an on board status LED, doesnt require constant babysitting, doesnt need a gauge, no more cheesy terminator plugs, etc

im setting up the engine controls on my new project soon and as leery as i am of being an early adopter of innovate products, it really does look like a good non-gauge option ('67 MG that i dont want aftermarket gauges in)...










LC2

anyway used one yet?


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> gonna bump this rather than starting a new thread since it seems relevant...
> 
> for all my gripes about the LC1, it looks like innovate recently released an LC2 that has an on board status LED, doesnt require constant babysitting, doesnt need a gauge, no more cheesy terminator plugs, etc
> 
> ...


Looks interesting and at $189 if I had not already purchsed my Spartan I would buy one. 
And your right about not adding a gauge to the MG, the electrical system in that car is confused enough (Lucas) without adding new technology


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## Shavarsh (Jan 12, 2014)

I have found this thread pretty useful so I figured I would bump it with a question. I am trying to dial in afr on my 16v cis-lambda and I want to be able to see the afr on cold start/other running conditions as a diagnostic tool. Ideally I would install an innovate G2 gauge however the cost may be prohibitive for me. I have also heard mixed reviews about the mtx-l and the uego. Any suggestions? I don't want something too bright and tacky on my dash but cost and compatibility with cis lambda are the top priorities. Thanks in advance


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## Human Garbage (Jan 3, 2014)

I run AEM. No issues. Goes to 18:1. Was going to go Innovate but like the Prof said they have issues (at least the LC-1). My buddy junked his due to it not playing nice. Same O2 sensor plugged into the AEM works fine. That and the free air calibration is a pain. I simply installed my AEM and started the car- no calibration required. Maybe the LC-2 is better, but I wasn't about to take a chance...


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