# Boost and Ignition timing



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

i was just wondering if anyone has any theoretical solutions to deciding how to adjust timing while in boost. 
I'm running a 2.0t with megasquirt and i'm having trouble deciding how to theoretically adjust my timing while in boost. the car wont really run right if my timing isn't about about 26* or 27* at 14 psi. can anyone share some articles or share their knowledge as to going about this? i feel like i'm trying to hit a bullseye in the dark here.


----------



## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (Flipdriver80)*

I'm sure somebody who is very farmiliar with standalone will chime in at some point, but i believe that you set the ignition timing for each rpm increment. Then you have it setup so that for each lb. of boost the ecu takes out a specified amount of timing. I thiink that people usually have it set around 1 or 2 degrees. Once again though i could be completely wrong. haha


----------



## DonSupreme (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (Flipdriver80)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flipdriver80* »_i was just wondering if anyone has any theoretical solutions to deciding how to adjust timing while in boost. 
I'm running a 2.0t with megasquirt and i'm having trouble deciding how to theoretically adjust my timing while in boost. the car wont really run right if my timing isn't about about 26* or 27* at 14 psi. can anyone share some articles or share their knowledge as to going about this? i feel like i'm trying to hit a bullseye in the dark here.

27 Degrees @ 14 psi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????? 
Prepare to lose your engine.


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (Flipdriver80)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flipdriver80* »_i was just wondering if anyone has any theoretical solutions to deciding how to adjust timing while in boost. 
I'm running a 2.0t with megasquirt and i'm having trouble deciding how to theoretically adjust my timing while in boost. the car wont really run right if my timing isn't about about 26* or 27* at 14 psi. can anyone share some articles or share their knowledge as to going about this? i feel like i'm trying to hit a bullseye in the dark here.

what is wout af ratio?
and dont tell us you dont run a wide band in your car.
also make sure your base fixed timing is properly set to 10 deg btdc..or your timing map will not be correct number wise..
wou should be in the neihborhood of 19 deg at peak tq..you can ad more aftere that..rpm wise...but 27 is engine death


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
what is wout af ratio?
and dont tell us you dont run a wide band in your car.
also make sure your base fixed timing is properly set to 10 deg btdc..or your timing map will not be correct number wise..
wou should be in the neihborhood of 19 deg at peak tq..you can ad more aftere that..rpm wise...but 27 is engine death

the base timing in MS was set the way the instructions tell you to. set timing in MS to 6, time engine to 6 degrees with a timing light and then set the timing in MS to -10 so that it uses your maps to dictate timing. and yes i'm running a wideband o2. 
its really wierd because if i set the timing lower at boost like around 24 or 22 it just misfires. in oreder for it not to misfire i need to have it much higher. 
its doesn't ping like pre-detonation its just misfires, like popping. 
its weird because i've heard that in boost you need to pull timing and be below 20 advanced but it just doesn't work out like that. this is why i'm confused.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (Flipdriver80)*

what kind of idle timing numbers are you getting?
it seems to me that the numbers youre seeing in the tuning screen might be off, because the whole map may be offset...
maybe you can post a screen shot of your spark table


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (Flipdriver80)*

Make sure you sync timing at something other then idle as well, rev it up a little bit and double check. You can have your ignition trigger inverted improperly and it won't show up until higher revs. 
As a rule of thumb I start tuning a car taking 1deg out per psi starting at 3psi.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Make sure you sync timing at something other then idle as well, rev it up a little bit and double check. You can have your ignition trigger inverted improperly and it won't show up until higher revs. 


thats also true http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
although ive usually seen that burn out the vb921s in pretty short order


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (ValveCoverGasket)*

It won't burn out BIP's or the VW module though.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_It won't burn out BIP's

oh...right...people are using those now


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (ValveCoverGasket)*

They are the best thing ever. No more repairs due to people not wiring coil power to the fuel pump relay output.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Boost and Ignition timing (need_a_VR6)*


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

well i got the base timing table from VCG's spitfireefi.com 16vt maps.
it runs good at low boost but when its at 15psi it started to misfire, so i backed the timing off and got an even worse misfire at the top end. so i moved the timing up a few degrees and it ran better.
its showing 28* which seems way off but its running better up there, still not great but better. i just know it needs to go down. 
how would i sync the timing while having the car revved higher?
oh and i thing VCG is right about the table being off.
tell me if these seem correct
the "spark output inverted" setting makes me a little curious.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Flipdriver80)*

are you driving the coil directly? v2.2 or v3 board?
thatd help narrow down the spark output inverted part...


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

what do you mean. its MSNS-Extra v2.2
oh and is the crank timing supposed to be on time based or on trigger based?
and how the heck do i figure my trigger angle and or additions.


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Take your car to someone who knows how to tune.
What are your plugs gapped at?


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

My timing is 22 deg @ 15psi on boost from 3500 to 4000rpm, rising gradually to 27 deg by 7000rpm to account for boost tail off.


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_Take your car to someone who knows how to tune.
What are your plugs gapped at?

i don't want to just take it to someone. i'm trying to learn about this so i can do it better myself. i had the car running fine before i raised the boost but the numbers just seem off and now that its not responding well to my tuning i'm worried.


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (Flipdriver80)*

im sent


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Flipdriver80)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flipdriver80* »_
i don't want to just take it to someone. i'm trying to learn about this so i can do it better myself. i had the car running fine before i raised the boost but the numbers just seem off and now that its not responding well to my tuning i'm worried.

That's great and all, but you could've easily blown up your motor.
And you still haven't answered my question.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Flipdriver80)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flipdriver80* »_what do you mean. its MSNS-Extra v2.2


If you're using a Bosch module it should be set to non-inverted. If you have an MSD or internal driver on your board (VB921, BIP, etc) it should be set to inverted.
You sync the timing with the fixed timing set (usually 6deg), you can rev wherever and it won't move. Check that with a timing light and make sure it all lines up. Both at idle and higher, around 3k is what I normally do.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
You sync the timing with the fixed timing set (usually 6deg), you can rev wherever and it won't move. Check that with a timing light and make sure it all lines up. Both at idle and higher, around 3k is what I normally do.

beat me to it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
lock it at 6 in MS, and if youre a few degrees off just nudge the distributor over until its lined up - or you can change the trigger angle in the spark settings, but if its real close i usually just move the distributor. as mentioned though definitely check it at a few different rpms


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

yeah it stays on the mark at 6 degrees all the way through the revs. i ran it up to about 5500.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Flipdriver80)*

interesting...
how low is your compression?


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

forged but stock compression pistons, BBM head spacer.
9:1 considering stock is 10:1 and the gasket spacer is supposed to lower it a point.


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

bump anyone?


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Flipdriver80)*

what plugs are you running, and what kind of gap?
its interesting that its actually misfiring


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

Spark's probably getting blown out


----------



## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_Spark's probably getting blown out

stock plugs. they have been fine for me before. i changed the gap to 22 now though. haven't driven it yet though.
it was running really rich at some points though so maybe its misfiring because of that too.


_Modified by Flipdriver80 at 10:25 PM 2-9-2009_


----------



## DonSupreme (Apr 11, 2006)

------ You should install an EGT in your mani.


----------



## oilpangasket (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: (DonSupreme)*

When it "misses" does your wideband read dead lean? You do have a wideband right? If its reading dead lean when it is missing in boost then that means its not igniting the fuel/air mixture and all of the unburnt oxygen is showing up in your exhaust pipe causing it to read dead lean. If it is doing this then your spark is being blown out. What is your AFR under boost before it starts to misfire? What is your coil dwell set to in MS? Is your ignition coil good? (or coil pack, didn't read if you were wasted spark or dizzy).
Telling us what AFR it is in full boost right before it starts to misfire will help figure out if its because its a lean misfire or too rich and blowing the plugs out.

This video might help you understand a little bit about ignition timing:
http://video.google.com/videop...60613

Notice how the plug fires before the piston reaches the top.


_Modified by oilpangasket at 5:15 AM 2-15-2009_


----------

