# VRT 10.5:1 on how much boost can I run?



## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

So I have a 12v VR I'm in the process of turboing right now and it was originally built NA, so it has 10.5:1 forged wisecos in it, I'm going to be running C2 OBD1 software #36, so its only good for 350whp anyways so I'll be happy with a little over three. Its going to be intercooled, and I have a water meth setup, turbo is a precision t3/t4 60trim, I'm think 12lbs would be get me a little over 3. And I think 12lbs would also be my limit at that compression ratio and even that might be kind of high? Not quite sure, I don't really want to head space it but I will if necessary I just want to be able to make like right around 300 safely.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

intercooled and meth there is no reason that you shouldnt be able to max out the injectors (18psi range)


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

hmmm I really didn't think that high with 10.5:1, but I believe that's what the mk4 vr's are stoock and people boost stock vrs up pretty high.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

WeeZFan69 said:


> hmmm I really didn't think that high with 10.5:1, but I believe that's what the mk4 vr's are stoock and people boost stock vrs up pretty high.


 I love it when people ask a question, you give them the answer, and then they disagree with you. :banghead:


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

haha i wasnt disagreeing with you, just surprised at yoour answer. thats all


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

10.5 Wisecos. Is that the 'machined' CR, or the final static CR with the MK4 3 layer HG? Just checking as you could actually be running 10, or 11 CR. Worth double checking if you don't know for sure already  

I've run 12psi on 10:1 before with no problems, and that wasn't even intercooled. Just meth/water. The knock regulation was very busy though.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

thats 10.5 to one for the piston, so I'm pretty sure with a fiber gasket I'm at 10.5, with a metal I'm 11:1


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

I run 10.5:1 Weisco's in my VRT, and I have one thing to say to you: head spacer. 

Pick up c2's 8.5:1 head spacer to get you back down into the low 9:1 range (iirc, Chris over there told me that their 8.5:1 spacer is really closer to 8.2:1). 

Yes, it means pulling the head...but you should be putting ARP headstuds in there anyways


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

i have no head on the motor now anyways and arp studs regardless, i think I would just buy a 9:1 spacer and run the motor so its 9.5:1, I'm obd1 so I can't be making huge horsepower anyways and don't want to make it loose all its nut out of boost. Haha but this is what I hate, I can't find a good solid answer on what to run, one guy says I can run max out the injectors no problem but the last post says definately do a spacer. 

edit: and I dont have a limitless amount of money to spend on this, so I wouldnt want to put one in unless its 100% necessary


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

With higher compression, you run a greater risk of detonation. For $200, think of the headspacer as a good insurance policy against keeping your engine together. 

And go with the 8.5:1


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

Thats a good point, but is it true with lower compresion ill make less power unless I run more boost? So say I'm at 10.5:1 and run like 12psi, how much boost would I have to run at 9:1 to make the same power I would at 10.5?


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

That I'm not sure about. One thing you may want to do is email Chris at c2 (you can do it through their website)...they may be able to give you a more educated answer on why the head spacer is a good option, and can probably answer this latest question. 

Good luck man


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

You got it, lowering comp is to prevent det. If you monitor knock, timing, fueling, egt's and fuel pressure you can make alot of power on 10:5:1. Know if you lower the comp you will loose a little off boost power, but it would be very little. You can never be to safe IMO, so I would put it at 9:1 for extra security. Just keep in mind people have had bad setups and blown motors with headspacers and water meth. People have also made 500+ on stock comp and bolts.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

i think i have told you all if not most of what have been said in this thread... decide what you want to do and do it... there isnt a perfect setup without spending the money... plus you cant have both of everything ... you gotta give and take... less power with lower compression (very little lost btw) which is safer or high compression, slighty more power at same boost level... but more prone to knock and detonation... also have to depend to higher octane or a good water/meth setup ...


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

ya but if im only going to run 12lbs anyways, and be able to do it safely at the CR im at now, I'm not going to waste time and money on a spacer? No one is really sure on what that safe booost amount is on this compression ratio. Like theres no point in having my motor lose power and drop compression and spend atleast an extra $200 if I'm going to be maxing out my C2 stuff anyways... 

like honestly I cant find an even close answer, one person says I should have NP maxing out the injectors, other people say no way I'd be able to without a spacer, since I got my new gaskets already I might just have to run it and see personally how it acts so I can stop trying to figure it out via the internet.


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

What part of "power loss will be barely noticeable" are you not getting  

Call c2 and talk to them about it


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

no i understand the power loss part, but nobody is aware of the max boost level at 10.5:1 to one, if its pretty damn close to whatd Id be running anyway then why would I waste the time and money on a spacer. 
The spacer will only be a good choice if I end up running more boost that my motor can handle, but no one is sure but I'm pretty sure the C2 software is going to max out before my CR does. 

But I guess it is very hard to say, at X amount of boost you need to install a headspacer...


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## 976-RADD (May 29, 2003)

WeeZFan69 said:


> ya but if im only going to run 12lbs anyways, and be able to do it safely at the CR im at now, I'm not going to waste time and money on a spacer?


 12lbs is not _that_ low. Assuming you already spent a few thousand dollars on the turbo setup, what's another $200? Personally, I would run a spacer for anthing over 7lbs, but that's me. In the end, you never truly know the limit of something until that limit is crossed.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

remember when you had your SC setup and you had knock problems when you are not using water/meth @ 6psi of boost... i can run 18psi + boost on 93oct and no water/meth ( i just use wate/meth now for added safety and so i can push it harder...) 

i think all the people here, including myself are just trying to tell you what we have tried and what works well and safe... you will not stay at 12psi forever... you will want more in 3 weeks! :laugh: 

but like what you said, you want to see whats the limit in person ... so dont spend the 200bucs for a spacer :beer:


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

976-RADD said:


> 12lbs is not _that_ low. Assuming you already spent a few thousand dollars on the turbo setup, what's another $200? Personally, I would run a spacer for anthing over 7lbs, but that's me. In the end, you never truly know the limit of something until that limit is crossed.


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## ilove2xlr8 (May 31, 2006)

i just installed my kit runing the same software on 7PSI non intercooled and im pulling like 5.3-6 degrees of timing caus of detonation and that when i stop pushing what the hell can anyone help me? my MAF sensor reads only 180G/s at like 4500-5000rpm my lambda was -4.5% and 18% threw a rich code i replaced the air filter now im at -4.5% and 8% ecu just told me my o2 is shot not havin a good week. 

also ive been runing on only like 14inHG since i put it on damn vacuum leak i can NOT find!


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Until you can form actual sentences, go **** yourself.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

son of planrforrobert said:


> Until you can form actual sentences, go **** yourself.


 grow the f u ck up.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Well, I'll be the guy then. I run 12 psi intercooled on a stock cr 12v with mild cams. I maxed my fuel setup out so i run it around 11 right now. I have no knock or anything bad to report about running that much boost on 10:5:1. Their is no real psi limit to a given cr. It has more to do with turbo flow than boost.:thumbup: Get a 9:1 and upgrade to 42 stuff later on and you will be happy for sure.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i think a stock block 500+whp switched back from 11 to 10.5 on e85 
would be a great setup in the dead of winter but not in the dessert 

i'd recommend 9:1 since you didn't mention summer or e85 
like the people that run 10+


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

PjS860ct said:


> remember when you had your SC setup and you had knock problems when you are not using water/meth @ 6psi of boost... i can run 18psi + boost on 93oct and no water/meth ( i just use wate/meth now for added safety and so i can push it harder...)
> 
> i think all the people here, including myself are just trying to tell you what we have tried and what works well and safe... you will not stay at 12psi forever... you will want more in 3 weeks! :laugh:
> 
> but like what you said, you want to see whats the limit in person ... so dont spend the 200bucs for a spacer :beer:


 haha i will stay at 12psi forever if thats almost maxing out my software, then when the time comes for standalone and more fuel i think that would be teh time to drop compression downnn low. I understand what you mean for as far as being safe and being able to run more boost, but I think already the motor can take more than my software can


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

976-RADD said:


> 12lbs is not _that_ low. Assuming you already spent a few thousand dollars on the turbo setup, what's another $200? Personally, I would run a spacer for anthing over 7lbs, but that's me. In the end, you never truly know the limit of something until that limit is crossed.


 hhahah not even close to a few thousand dollars, I'm young and don't have a lot of money, this a very low budget build, I'm only spending money on the things that this setup acutally NEEEDs.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Well, I'll be the guy then. I run 12 psi intercooled on a stock cr 12v with mild cams. I maxed my fuel setup out so i run it around 11 right now. I have no knock or anything bad to report about running that much boost on 10:5:1. Their is no real psi limit to a given cr. It has more to do with turbo flow than boost.:thumbup: Get a 9:1 and upgrade to 42 stuff later on and you will be happy for sure.


 Awesome, I'm gonna run 12lbs with a 10.5 and see how it likes it. And if it doesn't I'll take it easy and keep the boost down and then upgrade it all at once.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

ilove2xlr8 said:


> i just installed my kit runing the same software on 7PSI non intercooled and im pulling like 5.3-6 degrees of timing caus of detonation and that when i stop pushing what the hell can anyone help me? my MAF sensor reads only 180G/s at like 4500-5000rpm my lambda was -4.5% and 18% threw a rich code i replaced the air filter now im at -4.5% and 8% ecu just told me my o2 is shot not havin a good week.
> 
> also ive been runing on only like 14inHG since i put it on damn vacuum leak i can NOT find!


 yo *** dont ask questions about your motor in my post.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

^^^ lol 


anyways... even a build vr6 can loose to knock and det...


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

ya I know, I won't let that happen though, but I'm optimistic on how much power its going to make at a lower boost level so I'm pretty sure I'll need standalone before a spacer :laugh:


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

what are you gonna do to make it not happen? once you hear it or feel it the motor is toast... vr6 turbo are not that quiet... or a vr6 engine itself... lol :laugh: 

you should get a progressive controller on your meth injection...


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## 976-RADD (May 29, 2003)

WeeZFan69 said:


> haha i will stay at 12psi forever if thats almost maxing out my software, then when the time comes for standalone and more fuel i think that would be teh time to drop compression downnn low.


 I don't get it--You say you're going to run 12lbs. "forever", but upgrade later? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that the head was off? If so, and you are going to upgrade, even a couple of years from now, it would be worth it to drop the comp. now. 

Also, you can run 450-500 horse without standalone.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

976-RADD said:


> I don't get it--You say you're going to run 12lbs. "forever", but upgrade later?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that the head was off? If so, and you are going to upgrade, even a couple of years from now, it would be worth it to drop the comp. now.
> 
> Also, you can run 450-500 horse without standalone.


 You CANNNOT make 450-500 without standalone on my motor.... OBD1. So ya I'm gonna max out my C2 software which will probablly be around 12 to 14lbs. If my motor can take the amount of boost that will max out my software, then theres no point in wasting money on a spacer, and it will make it perform worse. who knows if I'll ever go standalone and if I do, the project would be so huge it wouldnt be too hard to change compression then...


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

PjS860ct said:


> what are you gonna do to make it not happen? once you hear it or feel it the motor is toast... vr6 turbo are not that quiet... or a vr6 engine itself... lol :laugh:
> 
> you should get a progressive controller on your meth injection...


 i always knew when it was knocking NA I dont see how it could be silent boosted, but ya a progressive controller would be nice


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

you can actually listen to the engine when in NA form cus its slow... once you add boost and an open wastegate... you will actually have to look on whats infront of you cus the mph and rpm comes in really fast... (unless you put the wastegate back into the exhaust then its a little quiet... ) 

i think you will learn later on that you should have listen to our experience and advice... lol ... i already spent twice or triple the amount i originally planned on spending...(thats spinning a rod bearing on my first vrt and loosing fuel pump connection and melting 2 piston on the 2nd vrt) and planning on actually spending another 10k this year when i put my built 3L in :beer:  ...


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## filthyeuropean (Sep 23, 2006)

I love when people ask questions then argue when they don't get the answer they want.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

G60T said:


> I love when people ask questions then argue when they don't get the answer they want.


 i hate asking one question adn getting 10 answers. all different answers.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

WeeZFan69 said:


> i hate asking one question adn getting 10 answers. all different answers.


 thats the internet. the tech forums arent as bad as the regular forums, but they're getting worse. 

you can generally tell based off of how people reply. 

if the reply contains 'yo son, my boy has that in his whip, and it's tight yo', you can generally ignore it.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I agree, you seem to have a low budget but a good understanding of whats going on. I had great sucess with my setup at 12 psi, even though it goes a tad lean up top. The best advice I can give you is get a wideband, egt and monitor for knock. You could even take a low tech approch and build a det can, they work really well if you intergrate it into a set of ear protectors. You should also consider more power = transmissions failing as was stated. Maxing your fuel setup is about as far as I would take a stock O2A trans, so you should also consider how far you want to go now and only go as far as your supporting hardware can reliably handle. Get a good intercooler to keep it cool. Stock VR's intake manifold likes to get hot sitting at traffic lights. Not a big deal unless you live your life one red light at a time. Last peice of advice I can give you is if it doesn't right right don't boost it, C2 chips rely on your cars sensors to be working correctly for fueling to right. G/L:thumbup:


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

I do have a good understanding of whats going on, but I know that you can have a great setup but still do it cheap if you put money where you need to. Like a bought a brand new turbo and cant wait to see what it does at 12psi









I have also already run the car on the same C2 software supercharged with a V9 blower, so I understand what goes on with that but I have less experience with turbos so its all kind of new to me.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Sorry if I came off wrong, was not trying to be a know it all. If you liked C2 with the super you will love it with the turbo.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

WeeZFan69 said:


> You CANNNOT make 450-500 without standalone on my motor.... OBD1. So ya I'm gonna max out my C2 software which will probablly be around 12 to 14lbs. If my motor can take the amount of boost that will max out my software, then theres no point in wasting money on a spacer, and it will make it perform worse. who knows if I'll ever go standalone and if I do, the project would be so huge it wouldnt be too hard to change compression then...


 There are plenty of 400+hp OBD1 VRTs in the UK and even more in Europe. 

OBD1, OBD2, ME7, M2.9, Standalone et al. They are all just computers. You put the right numbers in, you get the right numbers out. It's as simple as that. 

As for 10.5 and 12lbs of turbo boost, you go ahead and continue defying physics and watch what happens. If you don't want 10 answers, don't ask the question. People are just trying to help, but you seem to know it all anyway, so knock yourself out and blow your motor, because you WILL. I guarantee it.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

kevhayward said:


> There are plenty of 400+hp OBD1 VRTs in the UK and even more in Europe.
> 
> OBD1, OBD2, ME7, M2.9, Standalone et al. They are all just computers. You put the right numbers in, you get the right numbers out. It's as simple as that.
> 
> As for 10.5 and 12lbs of turbo boost, you go ahead and continue defying physics and watch what happens. If you don't want 10 answers, don't ask the question. People are just trying to help, but you seem to know it all anyway, so knock yourself out and blow your motor, because you WILL. I guarantee it.


 ****tiest post ever... you cant make 400+ and stay obd1. and im not going to listen to you or anyone else who doesnt have any actual experience or explain with any proof. I work at an engine shop, I built it myself... I wouldnt just blow it up.... Actually if I tried and make like 400 like you said on OBD1 then it might blow up since that is impossible unless I want to run my injectors at 100% duty cycle and that is retarded. And your an idiot how am I a know it all??? I'm trying to decifer between all of the nonsense on what is actually the truth. Cause at this point I've had people tell me that I'm gonna blow my motor up instantly and others say **** np intercooled and meth and that I could do 18lbs. That is a wide variance on answers, so I'm not sure who to believe?? 

Edit: WTF werent you the person that said you used to run 12lbs non intercooled on a stock motor???


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

If you would have just agreed to buy the headspacer, none of this would have happened


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

son of planrforrobert said:


> If you would have just agreed to buy the headspacer, none of this would have happened


 since nobody nkows for sure I'll find out how much boost you can run haha, then I'll buy that headspacer.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

im no pro but i think when you do find out that magic number of boost and the limit of 10.5:1 compression... its gonna be to late... specially with the ****y c2 36#software for obd1 vr6... 

make sure you have a very good water/meth setup, a good fmic, inline pump before you try anything more than 8psi 

with me at 9:1CR on a stock 80k vr6 with less engine work than yours... i made 352hp and 335tq @15psi this past weekend... should have made alot more but was running rich due to race gas and low boost... (its tune on 93oct):beer:


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## gtiguy12 (May 22, 2006)

I believe nobody can come up with a definate answer because there are alot of different factors to consider. What's the weather like where you are from? sombody from phoenix will not be able to run as much boost as someone from say alaska. Altitude, temperature and the existing condition of your engine and supporting modifications are all gonna play a large role. How's your cooling system? Like i said no 2 cars are alike. 

Start low on the boost, run logs, and turn it up as YOU feel comfortable. Some people run their cars on the ragged edge, while some want something that is gonna last. What might work for someone else may not work for you. You will know what works for you once the car is built and driven. Goodluck.:thumbup:


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

6 psi, 8 psi with inter cooler, 10 PSI with intercooler w/meth or lower compression with a gasket and run 10 PSI intercooled.... 


I daily my car so I will stick with 6-8 PSI with an intercooler better be safe than sorry, i also dont need to do 120 MPH going to stop and shop to get food and be going to jail.... if you have money to blow and you track your car thast a different story..... turn tat ish up to 30 PSI who cars


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

gtiguy12 said:


> I believe nobody can come up with a definate answer because there are alot of different factors to consider. What's the weather like where you are from? sombody from phoenix will not be able to run as much boost as someone from say alaska. Altitude, temperature and the existing condition of your engine and supporting modifications are all gonna play a large role. How's your cooling system? Like i said no 2 cars are alike.
> 
> Start low on the boost, run logs, and turn it up as YOU feel comfortable. Some people run their cars on the ragged edge, while some want something that is gonna last. What might work for someone else may not work for you. You will know what works for you once the car is built and driven. Goodluck.:thumbup:


 very well put and thats why I will do. and I won't let it blow up, trust me. Forged motor can take a few knocks here and there, but paolo no motor can take a loss of fuel like yours suffered That was from going wicked lean, I'll be able to tell if I'm running to much boost for the CR.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

been running 10 psi an no water meth for the past week with no problems so far:thumbup:


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

lets meet up later today for a shoot...


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Well, I'll be the guy then. I run 12 psi intercooled on a stock cr 12v with mild cams. I maxed my fuel setup out so i run it around 11 right now. I have no knock or anything bad to report about running that much boost on 10:5:1. Their is no real psi limit to a given cr. It has more to do with turbo flow than boost.:thumbup: Get a 9:1 and upgrade to 42 stuff later on and you will be happy for sure.


Yes. Thank you for typing it all for me


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Yes you can run as much power on OBD1 as you can on OBD2. The problem here is that C2 wont release anything more then enough to get you started on OBD1 because any moron with a $39 chip burner can copy the file and give one to all their friends. All this BS I have heard about datalogging and other excuses is total BS. OBD1 is just as capable as OBD2.

Now because any moron can copy the chip file means anyone who has a chip burner has the equipment to tune your car. There are also some defenition files floating around for tunerpro to tune the file with.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

WeeZFan69 said:


> very well put and thats why I will do. and I won't let it blow up, trust me. Forged motor can take a few knocks here and there, but paolo no motor can take a loss of fuel like yours suffered That was from going wicked lean, I'll be able to tell if I'm running to much boost for the CR.


 You can run a decent amount of boost high comp, like said before its all in the tune and knock regulation.

Everyone has done this differently at different alts and climates on varring engines ie stock/rebuilt blah blah blah. The engine should take 12psi intercooler/methed at your 10.5. seeing your confident enough to consider yourself as a knock detector give it a try. we wont bug you should you decide to turn the boost down or run a head spacer.

Im building a vrt setup right now and will be boosting my stock comp engine with 200000 plus km, just to see were it blows at, then swapping the real motor in haha.

All and all ive seen some different things in my time and high comp boost can be done. my buddy has a m3 at his shop running stock comp and 18psi, thing they had it at 700plus rwhp.

best of luck, should you be worried take the obvious route and drop the compression. you wont notice the power loss, specailly depending on the turbo you buy


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

weezfan69- we should do a run tonite... 

your 10.5: 1 vrt at 8-10 psi or what ever boost you running 
***VS***
my 9:1 vrt at same boost level but cant go lower than 8psi

:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

What boost/compression to run was always easy for me to determine. 

-If running C2, ask Jeff Atwood 

or 

-If running standalone, ask whomever will be tuning it. 

I've used C2 on 3 different setups. I ran the compression that each chip was tuned for and the max boost Jeff recommended for the fuel I was using since I have better things to do with my time and $$ than to repair/replace blown motors. 

I was always safe with this on C2 software. Ran hard/ drag raced for 3 years, in 90 degree plus weather, etc. No issues, no "noticeable" signs of knock. 

10:1 intercooled = up to 10psi on 93 oct. 12psi on 98-100 oct. 

9:1 intercooled= up to 15psi on 93 oct. 20psi on 98-100 oct. 

Never ran it, but was advised. 

8.5:1 intercooled= ~18-20psi on 93. 20 plus on race gas.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Yes you can run as much power on OBD1 as you can on OBD2. The problem here is that C2 wont release anything more then enough to get you started on OBD1 because any moron with a $39 chip burner can copy the file and give one to all their friends. All this BS I have heard about datalogging and other excuses is total BS. OBD1 is just as capable as OBD2.
> 
> Now because any moron can copy the chip file means anyone who has a chip burner has the equipment to tune your car. There are also some defenition files floating around for tunerpro to tune the file with.


 People that do this should be shot. 

A guy like Jeff Atwood puts the time in to tune these cars and sell a damn good product. The 42# obd2 VR file drives like stock. Amazing. $350 is a bargain. People should send this guy thank you cards along w/ their $$ for making it so easy to make 300-600whp. 

No. I think I'll be a dk and try and rip the guy off. Jerk ovv's:thumbdown:


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## gtibunny8v (Jan 4, 2002)

Ive run a stock mk4 at 12 psi intercooled on c2 stage 1 software for 12k miles no issues. At 129k miles I add a meth setup. I have a total of 28k miles on my setup and not a single engine issue.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> . It has more to do with turbo flow than boost.


 :thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> People that do this should be shot.
> 
> A guy like Jeff Atwood puts the time in to tune these cars and sell a damn good product. The 42# obd2 VR file drives like stock. Amazing. $350 is a bargain. People should send this guy thank you cards along w/ their $$ for making it so easy to make 300-600whp.
> 
> No. I think I'll be a dk and try and rip the guy off. Jerk ovv's:thumbdown:


 Every tuner that tunes hondas and all the subaru and mitsu stuff should just start tuning motronic. All the info is already there and the system is very similar to the evos for the ME7. Also the OBD1 stuff is so easy to tune that anyone with any sort of clue could do it easily. 

Another problem is the politics of this forum. Everytime I have ever tried to pass along info on how to tune these cars I have been banned. This has alot to do with APR and C2 pushing their weight around to try to hold everyone back so they can make profit. Its very unfortunate for the enthusiast.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Every tuner that tunes hondas and all the subaru and mitsu stuff should just start tuning motronic. All the info is already there and the system is very similar to the evos for the ME7. Also the OBD1 stuff is so easy to tune that anyone with any sort of clue could do it easily.
> 
> Another problem is the politics of this forum. Everytime I have ever tried to pass along info on how to tune these cars I have been banned. This has alot to do with APR and C2 pushing their weight around to try to hold everyone back so they can make profit. Its very unfortunate for the enthusiast.


 okay buddy get me a chip that works as good as c2's and ill pay you for it.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

WeeZFan69 said:


> okay buddy get me a chip that works as good as c2's and ill pay you for it.


 The proper way to tune a car is to put it on the dyno and tune it for the parts that are on the car. A generic tune is never going to be ideal unless your very lucky. 

Now back to your question. How much boost? It all depends on how lucky you are as far as how close to ideal your chip is.Personally I would ditch the chip idea and run a haltech sprint 2000 and E85. Bring that to a competant tuner and you will have the ideal tune.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> The proper way to tune a car is to put it on the dyno and tune it for the parts that are on the car. A generic tune is never going to be ideal unless your very lucky.
> 
> Now back to your question. How much boost? It all depends on how lucky you are as far as how close to ideal your chip is.Personally I would ditch the chip idea and run a haltech sprint 2000 and E85. Bring that to a competant tuner and you will have the ideal tune.


 ya but thats not a realistic option, and until someone else starts making their own chips for boosted OBD1 cars, then c2 is always going to be the best option with stock components.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

WeeZFan69 said:


> okay buddy get me a chip that works as good as c2's and ill pay you for it.


 
I think this was the same guy that was spouting off under a different SN awhile back. It's the same old song. "The proper way to tune a car is on a dyno blah, blah, blah". "I can make a chip very easily blah, blah, blah" 

Then make the chip, bring it to market, and let it's reputation grow like C2's has. 

I spent $350 on the chip. It took 5 min to pop it in. The car runs 11.5's with OE driveability. What's the problem? 

As for the "It's all about flow" comment, how so? If we're talking about knock and compression it's about boost. Boost causes knock, not flow.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The proper way to tune a car is to put it on the dyno and tune it for the parts that are on the car. A generic tune is never going to be ideal unless your very lucky.
> 
> .


 Yeah, we know that. However, for the time (5min) and money invested($300-$350) the cars run very well. It's a great value. C2's tune is proven. Who's to say the guy dyno tuning your car knows what he's doing. 

I guess I'm just not sure of what your point is. What's "ideal"? My car is as fast as it's allowed to be w/out a roll bar. It drives perfect and is dead reliable. All that for $350? I call that pretty ideal:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The point is that it is holding VWs back because people cannot do this yet. Its really pretty easy and there is no excuse for people to not do this. Driving around on your doughnut spare also "works" but it could be alot better.


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

after a lot of study it becomes easy to tune the ecu once you understand it but its not for everybody .. 

my obd1 vr6t im running evo 560cc low impedance injectors with 4bar fpr 
moates ostrich 2 rt makes it really easy to tune once you have an xdf made.. with live data tracing function you can live tune the ecu and make changes to the software while the engine is running example on tuning the fuel it takes me 5 mins to tune my wot afr to what ever afr i choose 
for idle and part throttle disable to 02 control and tune the fuel map by raiseing and lowering the fuel bins to tune close to 14.7 as possible then re enable the 02 and the fuel adaptation trims are close to zero its just like a standalone ecu except around 95 percent of the software is already tuned by vw ..i also have launch control with switchable maps working fine with the stock obd1 ecu 
my car runs perfect winter and summer and runs better than any generic c2 software ive tried on my car


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

WeeZFan69 said:


> ****tiest post ever... you cant make 400+ and stay obd1. and im not going to listen to you or anyone else who doesnt have any actual experience or explain with any proof. I work at an engine shop, I built it myself... I wouldnt just blow it up.... Actually if I tried and make like 400 like you said on OBD1 then it might blow up since that is impossible unless I want to run my injectors at 100% duty cycle and that is retarded. And your an idiot how am I a know it all??? I'm trying to decifer between all of the nonsense on what is actually the truth. Cause at this point I've had people tell me that I'm gonna blow my motor up instantly and others say **** np intercooled and meth and that I could do 18lbs. That is a wide variance on answers, so I'm not sure who to believe??
> 
> Edit: WTF werent you the person that said you used to run 12lbs non intercooled on a stock motor???


 LOL, I forgot about this Golden thread :laugh: 

Yes I did run 12psi non-intercooled on a stock motor, but I do apologise, I failed to mention that the boost was courtesy of a Vortech V9-F blower, so not the biggest flowing device on the planet. A charger than drops 4psi if it so much as sniffs an intercooler. I also said the knock activity was very busy if you remember?. Especially after the 4th or 5th run, power was well below 300 due to heatsoak / timing pull. And I also didn't go into how nice, or bad, it was to drive. It was terrible. 

If you understand forced induction, then you'll understand that linear boost from a low cfm centrifugal S/C is no where near as damaging as a quick spooling, high cfm turbo. It's for this very reason we lower the compression ratio, and we don't need to waste time with meth either  

You have no idea of my history or ability, so please don't start spitting your dummy out if people are honest and frank with you. You prove to me that you CANNOT make 400hp on OBD1 and I will prove to you that it CAN be done. Do you even know why some people _think_ it can't be done? What's wrong with running injectors at 100% duty? Do you even realise that many modern injectors, such as the Bosch EV14 and Denso 1220 are more than happy at 8 Bar rail pressure and 100% duty, whilst maintaining linearity? 

If you want to stick to 85% max duty and old Motronic technology, knock yourself out :thumbup: 

EDIT: WTF, aren't you the guy who works at an engine shop and will build himself so won't blow it?  
If so, why not just get on with it? To hell with us and our idiotic and incorrect opinions, just get on with it already, and prove us all wrong


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

ade007 said:


> after a lot of study it becomes easy to tune the ecu once you understand it but its not for everybody ..
> 
> my obd1 vr6t im running evo 560cc low impedance injectors with 4bar fpr
> moates ostrich 2 rt makes it really easy to tune once you have an xdf made.. with live data tracing function you can live tune the ecu and make changes to the software while the engine is running example on tuning the fuel it takes me 5 mins to tune my wot afr to what ever afr i choose
> ...


 OBD1 win. This is exactly what I am talking about. And once you understand the basic motronic layout then you can tune any of these cars. All you have to do is change your xdf to whatever your tuning. I have done a few BMWs and the like and its not all that hard. 

And if you can shoot me a PM on the details for your launch control set up I would appreciate it. Im pretty sure I know but just curious.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

kevhayward said:


> LOL, I forgot about this Golden thread :laugh:
> 
> Yes I did run 12psi non-intercooled on a stock motor, but I do apologise, I failed to mention that the boost was courtesy of a Vortech V9-F blower, so not the biggest flowing device on the planet. A charger than drops 4psi if it so much as sniffs an intercooler. I also said the knock activity was very busy if you remember?. Especially after the 4th or 5th run, power was well below 300 due to heatsoak / timing pull. And I also didn't go into how nice, or bad, it was to drive. It was terrible.
> 
> ...


 lol ya ive been running 10psi the whole time so far on 10.5:1 with no meth so I dont see it ever being a problem espeically since it was 90 degrees all week. Also, I disagree about what you said, I think that running my 36lb bosch injectors at 100% duty would be bad... thats just what ive heard from everyone.


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## Juiced6 (Feb 1, 2004)

WeeZFan69 said:


> You CANNNOT make 450-500 without standalone on my motor.... OBD1. So ya I'm gonna max out my C2 software which will probablly be around 12 to 14lbs. If my motor can take the amount of boost that will max out my software, then theres no point in wasting money on a spacer, and it will make it perform worse. who knows if I'll ever go standalone and if I do, the project would be so huge it wouldnt be too hard to change compression then...


 you can always try  


actually if you go standalone just switch to alcohol and keep the bottom end at your 10.5/11:1 ratio


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The point is that it is holding VWs back because people cannot do this yet. Its really pretty easy and there is no excuse for people to not do this. Driving around on your doughnut spare also "works" but it could be alot better.


 I still don't get your point sir. Better for what? Price/time invested? Driveability? Power? Reliability? 

Are you selling a chip or proposing that each individual person tune their own car? 

Bottom Line: Every customer has different needs. Show me a lower cost, less time intensive(busy guy), way of tuning my car to make 400whp and run 11.5's at 125mph than the $350 and 5 min. I spent on a C2 chip.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> I still don't get your point sir. Better for what? Price/time invested? Driveability? Power? Reliability?
> 
> Are you selling a chip or proposing that each individual person tune their own car?
> 
> Bottom Line: Every customer has different needs. Show me a lower cost, less time intensive(busy guy), way of tuning my car to make 400whp and run 11.5's at 125mph than the $350 and 5 min. I spent on a C2 chip.


 Power and reliability per dollar I would say this is the way to go. http://www.braunstadt.com/lugtronic/node/13


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Power and reliability per dollar I would say this is the way to go. http://www.braunstadt.com/lugtronic/node/13


 
Couple things I notice right off the bat as a consumer. 

1) That setup costs ~$1450 

2) Someone that knows what they're doing has to tune it which costs or you have to tune it which takes time. That's also a cost for some. I realize it's fun for others. Add to that waiting for that ecu and harness to be built and waiting for the tuner to tune it. 

You're comparing that to a $350 chip and 5 min? All out drag race car yes, but why would anyone spend that much more time and money on a "tune" for a street or street/strip car when you can make 400whp and run right up to the roll bar limit without it? 

Again, depends on your goals. I achieved mine for $350 in tuning.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Power and reliability per dollar I would say this is the way to go. http://www.braunstadt.com/lugtronic/node/13


 Way to go for who? 

Someone looking to: 
-make 300whp and just have fun on the street? 

-make 400whp and run mid-low 11's? 

-make 500-800whp, run 8's-10's, and compete in sanctioned import drag events? 

Surely the same tuning option can't be optimal and the most cost effective for all three? It's not. C2 for the first two. Standalone for the 3rd:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Consider yourself lucky. You are one of the ones who got the ideal tune for their set up. Now what about the rest of the threads on here?WAAAAAAAAA! My car runs like crap! 

And if you think 400whp for a 2.8l motor is impressive then you need to get out a little more.There is so much more potential in these motors and the generic turbo chip tune is holding them back. 

Now lets say we go with the chip tune right? We also need to get a MAF housing (add $100) A head gasket and other related parts and probably a full days labor to install them. Why do we need all of this? Because out off the shelf chip requires it. 

At the end of the day your stuck with what your chip is designed for and if you want to upgrade you need another chip (add another $350). 

I am also going to have a thread in another forum to show people how to set up a xdf file for tunerpro so that anyone who is a decent tuner can do this. You can take this to your local tunershop and have them tune it for you. Hell you can even have them fine tune your C2 chip to be even better.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> And if you think 400whp for a 2.8l motor is impressive then you need to get out a little more.There is so much more potential in these motors and the generic turbo chip tune is holding them back.


 several 560+Whp VRs on here running Generic chip tunes.  

stand alone is great, if you have a specific reason for it. But there are 1000s of people who have bought the kinetic kit (in all its stages), and they have no reason to go stand alone, nor would they get noticeable gains from doing so. 

:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Consider yourself lucky. You are one of the ones who got the ideal tune for their set up. Now what about the rest of the threads on here?WAAAAAAAAA! My car runs like crap!
> 
> And if you think 400whp for a 2.8l motor is impressive then you need to get out a little more.There is so much more potential in these motors and the generic turbo chip tune is holding them back.
> 
> ...


 I'll be happy to address all of your assumptions. 

Lucky? The tune doesn't change. If 100 cars run perfect and 5 cars blow up then how's it the chips fault? These cars are older w/ alot of miles. Sorry, I've seen so many cars running reliably on the 42# tune that it's not a question. 

If you think I'm here to impress people on the internet with 400whp then you need to get out more. That's just happens to be the power I need to run the times I want at my car's weight. Anymore would be a waste of time and $$. To all the internet hero's making more show me where they're using it and maybe I'll care. 

Again, at the end of the day it will always come down to is something worth the added cost for your goals or setup. 

Is synthetic oil worth the added cost for a daily? Is 93 octane worth putting in a beater? Are they better? 

Something is only "better" and worth the added cost if it's your limiting factor and is helping you meet a goal. Without knowing the goal and the setup you can't say. Not everybody wants an irrational 500-800whp in a fwd street car. For the rational folk, things are much cheaper and work very well


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

TBT-Syncro said:


> several 560+Whp VRs on here running Generic chip tunes.
> :beer:


 how many are obd1


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> Consider yourself lucky. You are one of the ones who got the ideal tune for their set up. Now what about the rest of the threads on here?WAAAAAAAAA! My car runs like crap!
> 
> And if you think 400whp for a 2.8l motor is impressive then you need to get out a little more.There is so much more potential in these motors and the generic turbo chip tune is holding them back.
> 
> ...


 Yo your mad stupid I wish you didn't even post in here. LITERS has a very tiny affect on power, its all about cylinder head, or in this case turbo flow and cylinder head. Secondly, I made my MAF housing out of piece of 4 inch pipe.... cost zero dollars. Thirdly yes its a generic tune, but this is motronic on a VW, not the basic system that say a honda has. The motronic has the abilitiy to adjust itself to best suite the setup of the motor. And what are you talking about needing a headgasket that has nothing to do with software??? Think what you want buddy but I'm running OBD1 and I have no running problems at all, a little strange cause any boosted car with a MAF is gonna be... But honestly I get it into boost and it holds right around 12:1 A/F how could I have tune that any better? Always idles right at 14.7 and keeps it like that part cruise and it runs like stock. And a full day labor to install what man?? You don't know what your talking about dude. If your the person that has money to waste of unoticeable differences but go for it, I bet my turbo car will drive almost exactly the same and make the same power. And honestly the only time I'd ever go to standalone is because I'm OBD1 and they'll only support 36lb injectors, so I can make more power. But honestly thats no where near paying that much to make that much power... But thats my opinion

Oh ya, and why would anyone go standalone if you could just tune motronic yourself??

Another point id like to make. I'd pay 350 dollars anyday to be able to have an instant tune. Meaning midnight, the night I finished my turbo setup there was not wait time, I could rip on her as soon as it was together. Besides all the other factors its good for, this is one I loved the most, no waiting around to drive the car cause it "neesd to be tuned". And idk about you, but I wouldn't trust myself tuning my VR ecu by myself, I do trust it to c2 though cause its not a cheap motor...


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

magner said:


> how many are obd1


 NONE


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> how many are obd1


 Obd2 swap is pretty simple on a 95' IIRC. You can actually break even on the parts as well. Sell the 95' stuff for ~ the same price as the 96'-99' stuff. 

It's an option.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

slcturbo said:


> Obd2 swap is pretty simple on a 95' IIRC. You can actually break even on the parts as well. Sell the 95' stuff for ~ the same price as the 96'-99' stuff.
> 
> It's an option.


 yes i consider it but it seems like an expenisve option? maybe not if you find a good donor car.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Well for all you OBD1 guys I am going to be showing people how to set up definition files to have your local tuners tune your cars. The new Moates ostrich makes this very feasible and recomended. This gives any tuner thats knows how to tune a MAF car (evo and subaru) the ability to live edit OBD1 cars.My prediction is that very soon people are going to be taking out the OBD2 and putting the OBD1 back in  

My personal car is a 370whp 300tq stock internal 8v rabbit. Yes it is done on E85 and stock compression. This car runs on the new haltech sprint platinum. This is also recomended because they start out about $850.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

WeeZFan69 said:


> yes i consider it but it seems like an expenisve option? maybe not if you find a good donor car.


 I think I paid $400 for a complete obd2 swap. Haven't sold the Corrado stuff, but I'm sure $400 wouldn't be a problem for everything that was pulled off (ecu, harness, distributor, MAF, ignition coil, O2 sensor, manifold, metal valve cover, etc. 

I took a little time deciding as I was "limited" like you b/c I was obd1 dizzy. More than anything it came down to tuning. 

1) Do I want to be at the mercy of someone to tune my car. Waiting, not answering emails, phone calls, etc. Answer: Not if I don't have to. Send some IM's. People dont always air their experiences in the open. 

2) Do I have the time and desire to learn how to tune it myself. Answer: Absolutely not. House, wife, cats, dogs, work, school, friends,etc. 

That's why I went the chip route. It was perfect for me and my goals for this car. If I ever do an all out drag car then bring on the standalone/laptop. Until then, I'll make 300-600whp w/ a chip and spend my time driving/racing vs. waiting/tuning.:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

If your going to do anything involving wiring then wire this in instead.You will get a million time farther and be able to do anything you like in the future. 

http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=991


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> That's why I went the chip route. It was perfect for me and my goals for this car. :


 it was perfect for me also when i first started turboing my car obd1 . 36 software were the biggest software for my car i thought cool just collect all the turbo bits and just plug in the chip and job done.. 
things did not go to plan ..i send my ecu off because i were told the software had to be flash loaded into the ecu (which is bs as it only takes 3 seconds to program a 64k file to a $2.99 eprom) 6 months later yes 6 months my ecu returned to uk with injectors and spacer . then after all this time it would not idle and running offscale rich ...my stock chip ran the 36lb injectors fine with the 95mm maf so i knew for a fact it was a software problem ..they said sent it back after 2 weeks waiting for email reply :banghead: 
i thought [email protected] c2 and i was forced into learning the next cheapest option megasquirt 
i ran that for 2 years then decided to learn to program the original ecu because i wanted knock control


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

here is an example of tunerpro data tracing of someone tuning idle afrs on a bmw for them thats intrested in seeing 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi_cQODTO8c


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> Well for all you OBD1 guys I am going to be showing people how to set up definition files to have your local tuners tune your cars. .


 register first and then click this link 
http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=404&start=0 

im redeye on this forum ive posted a bit of info howto setup automatic checksums with tunerpro and the adress to disable 02 feedback while tuning also how to edit the fuelmaps to one large map also delete wot timing maps and send them to one large timing map ideal for non linear power that turbos produce :thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

ade007 said:


> register first and then click this link
> http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=404&start=0
> 
> im redeye on this forum ive posted a bit of info howto setup automatic checksums with tunerpro and the adress to disable 02 feedback while tuning also how to edit the fuelmaps to one large map also delete wot timing maps and send them to one large timing map ideal for non linear power that turbos produce :thumbup:


 Do you have a defenition file you could send me? I was about to set up a how to for setting up a vw definition file for TP. The checksum part is pretty easy.

I see you guys already figured out how to use the map registry to change the size and shape of the maps. LOL


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

ade007 

you have a a different ECU than USA cars..... that might be the problem with c2 and your car all of USA runs c2 with out any issues 


good luck man


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

dubbinmk2 said:


> ade007
> 
> you have a a different ECU than USA cars..... that might be the problem with c2 and your car all of USA runs c2 with out any issues
> 
> ...


 I'm only going by what I've heard, but I don't think the 95' OBD1 software is as "refined" as the OBD2 stuff. 

You'll be hard pressed to find a complaint w/ the current obd2 42# tune. It was in the tuners personal car iirc so makes sense. I'm just trying to clarify b/c many times C2 software is used as a general term. Every tune is different. I'm sure some are better than others.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> I'm only going by what I've heard, but I don't think the 95' OBD1 software is as "refined" as the OBD2 stuff.
> 
> You'll be hard pressed to find a complaint w/ the current obd2 42# tune. It was in the tuners personal car iirc so makes sense. I'm just trying to clarify b/c many times C2 software is used as a general term. Every tune is different. I'm sure some are better than others.


 
The only differences that I know of are that the OBD2 has alot more emissions crap on them. The mapping of the ecu is done the same way. The whole part of this that annoys me the most is that there are so many people out there going around spewing things out like its gospel and they have no idea what they are talking about.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The only differences that I know of are that the OBD2 has alot more emissions crap on them. The mapping of the ecu is done the same way. The whole part of this that annoys me the most is that there are so many people out there going around spewing things out like its gospel and they have no idea what they are talking about.


 It's a different tune meaning a different test car was used. I'm sure the mapping is done the same way, but they are different tunes. Also, certain tunes received more attention and some were even revised. 

Quick question. Seems like you have a problem with C2 or chip tunes in general. What's the problem? They have allowed hundreds of enthusiasts to safely double, triple, or even make up to 4X the whp the car came with for $300-$350 (other than Stage 4). The tunes are proven. I just ran Pinks All-Out with 2 other C2 42# obd2 VRT's. All of us running 11.2-11.9's. No one breaking which is more than I can say for alot of the RWD cars there or the few turbo cars w/ the laptops. If you like standalone or tuning your own car, that's great, but not everyone does.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> It's a different tune meaning a different test car was used. I'm sure the mapping is done the same way, but they are different tunes. Also, certain tunes received more attention and some were even revised.
> 
> Quick question. Seems like you have a problem with C2 or chip tunes in general. What's the problem? They have allowed hundreds of enthusiasts to safely double, triple, or even make up to 4X the whp the car came with for $300-$350 (other than Stage 4). The tunes are proven. I just ran Pinks All-Out with 2 other C2 42# obd2 VRT's. All of us running 11.2-11.9's. No one breaking which is more than I can say for alot of the RWD cars there or the few turbo cars w/ the laptops. If you like standalone or tuning your own car, that's great, but not everyone does.


 Im a fan of chip tuning. I tune OBD1 cars. I have a problem with morons spewing out all kinds of BS about chip tuning that know nothing about it. Thats all. And just for the record I am going to be teaching people how to set up the definition files for tunerpro so more tuners around the country can tune the OBD1 cars.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Im a fan of chip tuning. I tune OBD1 cars. I have a problem with morons spewing out all kinds of BS about chip tuning that know nothing about it. Thats all. And just for the record I am going to be teaching people how to set up the definition files for tunerpro so more tuners around the country can tune the OBD1 cars.


 Gotcha. Only thing though is the "morons" don't have to know anything about it. That's what you pay C2 for. I don't know how to build a plasma TV either, but I can recommend my Samsung b/c I use it and it works well. Same thing.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I have read and know what C2 is doing to these chip files.There is no magic.There are some things that tuners are using now that I gave them information to help them develop :laugh: 

For the same reason that everyone switches to OBD1 honda you guys need to look at OBD1 VW.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> I have read and know what C2 is doing to these chip files.There is no magic.There are some things that tuners are using now that I gave them information to help them develop :laugh:


 You should start making chips and sell them like C2 does then. As seen by the number of C2 cars, most non race car owners would rather buy a chip for $300-$350 than tune their own car so the market is there.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> You should start making chips and sell them like C2 does then. As seen by the number of C2 cars, most non race car owners would rather buy a chip for $300-$350 than tune their own car so the market is there.


 Its not my interest. Im a fabricator by trade. If you look at the honda,evo,and STI guys you get a better view of what this would do for the VW guys.

And you got me by one MPH and a little over three tenths


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Their OBD1 Coilpack Stuff was Actually Good*

The C2 *coilpack* software for OBD1 is actually pretty solid. The latest version of the 36 software is very stable and was daily driven without ever having any problems. I would have happily kept that particular car in OBD1 config if I had software support beyond the 36lb setup. C2 is tuning these cars to see financial profit and not because it's a hobby. The production range of OBD1 VR (coilpack) cars is small and the number of guys wanting to turbo them even smaller, hence why there was no real effort to take the software beyond 36lb. I doubt it was because of C2's "inability" or lack of tuning knowledge. If a person is contented with the ~15psi out of the OBD1 chip then there is no reason for standalone or OBD2. OBD2 in my case was "required" only because I got greedy.

*Coilpack *is stressed in this post because I have never run any of their distributor software so have no clue how this compares.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i think i figured it out, you have no taste, c2 & samsung ? 
now what if you used MacIntosh, E85 & ITB in a sentence :laugh:


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

I would rather pay $300-$400 for OBD1 nice turbo tune set and forget it........ I dont have time to play witht he car everyday... I need to turn on and get me to work if i dont get to work on time they will fire me it's my only car.. 


so i need it to be reliable.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

EL DRIFTO said:


> i think i figured it out, you have no taste, c2 & samsung ?
> now what if you used MacIntosh, E85 & ITB in a sentence :laugh:


 I'm a business major (2nd career), so I tend to look at things from a rational or cost effective point of view. I get the most for my money for what I'm looking to do. I agree that doesn't lead to internet fan clubs, but that's not my goal. I don't need a Mac, E85 or ITB's to acheive my goals for the car. Just like I didn't need standalone, a custom tune, an SRI, a name intercooler, or a built motor. 

Cheapest way to run 11.5's in a 2700lb VRT reliably? C2 42# 

Best picture hands down IMO in a 50" plasma for under $1k a year ago: Samsung 

Not caring what anyone else thinks of my decisions= Priceless


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## 976-RADD (May 29, 2003)

slcturbo said:


> I'm a business major (2nd career), so I tend to look at things from a rational or cost effective point of view. I get the most for my money for what I'm looking to do. I agree that doesn't lead to internet fan clubs, but that's not my goal. I don't need a Mac, E85 or ITB's to acheive my goals for the car. Just like I didn't need standalone, a custom tune, an SRI, a name intercooler, or a built motor.
> 
> Cheapest way to run 11.5's in a 2700lb VRT reliably? C2 42#
> 
> ...


 Much respect. It's a shame more people don't think like we do.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

976-RADD said:


> Much respect. It's a shame more people don't think like we do.


 If everyone thought the same way you do then we wouldnt have round wheels yet. I mean who needs wheels when we can get around just fine on our feet?


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## 976-RADD (May 29, 2003)

TIGninja said:


> If everyone thought the same way you do then we wouldnt have round wheels yet. I mean who needs wheels when we can get around just fine on our feet?


 Space reserved for witty retort, as soon as I think of one.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

976-RADD said:


> Space reserved for witty retort, as soon as I think of one.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

976-RADD said:


> Much respect. It's a shame more people don't think like we do.


 :beer: 

Works for me.


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## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm really interested in another option besides off the shelf chip tunes or stand alone, if you (tigninja) 
can describe how to get there on obd1 it would be awesome for the people that were let down by the existing chip tunes. I went to stand alone and love it but.....without knock sensing it's kind of a time 
bomb. I know stand alone is capable of knock sensing but the set up is impossible. if there was a way to see how the stock ecu works in that regard maybe it could be set up on standalone. 

It's about time someone is thinking outside the box here


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Is there another forum where I can start a thread and cut and paste some stuff out of the old hardcore forum? I will share with you guys how to do this.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok here is where we are going to do this. I am going to go over the basics of how to tune the low,part,and full throttle maps for fuel and ignition.I am also going to volunteer ADE007 to come there and help


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Ok here is where we are going to do this. I am going to go over the basics of how to tune the low,part,and full throttle maps for fuel and ignition.I am also going to volunteer ADE007 to come there and help


 Oh yea the link  Im such a dumbass. 

http://www.vwforum.com/forums/f11/obd1-motronic-tuning-thread-43655/#post333683


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok I started a thread there with enough information to get you guys going. The grand total of the cost is free. Zero. What we are doing is setting up something where you can set it up and being it to the local honda tuner who already has the tools and more then likely the skills to do this.


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## B4WrNd (Nov 15, 2004)

WeeZFan69 said:


> since nobody nkows for sure I'll find out how much boost you can run haha, then I'll buy that headspacer.


 I had this same question awhile back. 

I have a obdII block, JE pistons 10/1 and a mk4 HG. 

Here is my 2 cents. 

Though it may seem relatively simple question at first, you must consider how many variables there are. 

Boost is not the same across the board you must consider flow. 
Your cam profile will have a considerable effect. 
Whats your intake temp? 
How big is your intercooler and how efficient? 

Your car is unique and though you may find someone else with similar specs, there are still differences. 

There isn't a definitive answer because not many people run that C/R for a reason, and no one has intentionally pushed there engine with higher compression just to see when it will go, that would obviously have little point. 

I agree with most everyone else here. Your head is off. Why take the added risk?


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

TIGninja said:


> Every tuner that tunes hondas and all the subaru and mitsu stuff should just start tuning motronic. All the info is already there and the system is very similar to the evos for the ME7. Also the OBD1 stuff is so easy to tune that anyone with any sort of clue could do it easily.
> 
> Another problem is the politics of this forum. Everytime I have ever tried to pass along info on how to tune these cars I have been banned. This has alot to do with APR and C2 pushing their weight around to try to hold everyone back so they can make profit. Its very unfortunate for the enthusiast.


 dude this the truth.... back in the EIP days they go me banned 4 times for passing information over the years.... i even had JJ call me one time after being banned threatening me never to pass info on..... i guess thats why they got away with screwing poeple for so many years.... kinda sad the vortex protected a crap company screwing VW fans...... it wreaked of awsomeness..... 

i dont even own a VW anymore thank god....but i love engines and i love going fast...and VW's weather i own one or not will always be a passion....who knows but i know i wont be coming to the vortex asking for information on any build.....i rather just post on motor geek or honda tech i get more educated answers there... kinda sad but most the good guys that i used to get information from moved on years ago when they realized there wasnt a dime to be made in the VW community....opcorn:


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

B4WrNd said:


> I had this same question awhile back.
> 
> I have a obdII block, JE pistons 10/1 and a mk4 HG.
> 
> ...


 

its his motor if he wants to blow it up let him......most my diesel buddies laugh when they blow a motor because its all part of the game...you push the limits you trash motors...thats how you find the limit and learn...... when i was a kid i blew up more jetski's then i knew what to do with..... i worked to build them i had the right to blow them up..... if i didnt push them i wouldnt have learned what i did and won races...... plain and simple... its how the motor industry works the guys with the balls and money win.... 

bump to this guy for pushing limits i like it:thumbup: atleast someone on here has a set run some race fuel and meth and show these guys whats up


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

Corradokcid said:


> its his motor if he wants to blow it up let him......most my diesel buddies laugh when they blow a motor because its all part of the game...you push the limits you trash motors...thats how you find the limit and learn...... when i was a kid i blew up more jetski's then i knew what to do with..... i worked to build them i had the right to blow them up..... if i didnt push them i wouldnt have learned what i did and won races...... plain and simple... its how the motor industry works the guys with the balls and money win....
> 
> bump to this guy for pushing limits i like it:thumbup: atleast someone on here has a set run some race fuel and meth and show these guys whats up


your retarded high compression and boost doesnt blow your motor instantly. i wouldnt even let it get that far... ill stop when it pings.


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

dude...im not saying your gonna blow your motor up at all... im supporting you....you totally misread my statement.... im saying all the guys should shut up about blowing your motor up.... they act like they gave you money for the motor.... i always got tired of people telling me what to do with my ****.. i did whatever i wanted....

so your retarded for not understanding i was trying to be cool :thumbup: where in my statement did i say (boost and high compression will blow your motor up?) i said you had a set of balls for trying..... i just said if you want to blow it up blow it up..... if you want to use the thing as a paper weight what do i care??? i just get tired of all the texers crying a river when somone doesnt do the cookie cutter vr6 turbo build..... and i was merely sticking up for your right to do whatever you want cause its yours..... you seem to know what your doing.....everone on here just assumes everyone is just some E-wrencher when actually there are some educated wrenchers on here...

soo chill out man dont be so defensive post results on this build im interested:thumbup:


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

haha sorry i did misunderstand the way you said, its his motor let him blow it up if he wants.
lol id never blow up my motor theres too much time and money invested into it.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

WeeZFan69 said:


> haha sorry i did misunderstand the way you said, its his motor let him blow it up if he wants.
> lol id never blow up my motor theres too much time and money invested into it.



same here!!! unless money starts growing on trees on day i'm all set with that


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

^^^ I cant wait to see you install your turbo kit and I cant wait to see when you post in here, which boost controller you should get... wahahahaha :laugh:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Not apples to apples but my buddies M3 runs ~14psi of vortec goodness at ~10.5:1. Running reasonably large Schricks. Car has water/meth injection and is very well setup. He is planning on going down in pulley size (more boost) shortly. 

Car makes a mustang dyno verified ~460-480whp corrected depending on the day. What's more interesting is the seriously fat/flat torque curve. He has yet to see someone's dyno graph show the flat torque curve and his tuning reflects that (Active Autowerks tune) where a ton of extra fuel was required under the curve. My honest opinion is the higher CR helps here significantly with the torque.

Not sure how long it'll last but it's got nearly 10k since the build and runs day to day as a semi nice weather daily. Silly fast....


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

PjS860ct said:


> ^^^ I cant wait to see you install your turbo kit and I cant wait to see when you post in here, which boost controller you should get... wahahahaha :laugh:



ok lol.....


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I have been following this thread for awhile, good stuff in here btw. I just wanted to add my humble opinion to the mix when it comes to engines and turbous in general. Compression ratio, fuel, airflow and timing all play a factor into how much power you will make before it goes kaboom. Timing is the key to keeping it safe and knock free. I have always felt that lower C/R was a bandaid from the early years of FI when tuning and engine design was not perfect. I understand that it will save your motor if you knock though. Today we have all kinds of new stuff available to take it up a notch. I have seen guys run 17psi on stock VR6 engines before, but they had a standalone so they could control the timing map and was tuned by a BAFM. The C2 chip for OBD2 MK3's does not allow timing control, I use that chip because it was cheap and available and works, that being said I feal it leaves much to be desired in the way of function. I will call it what it is, a cookie cutter tune, but I still like it. One day I hope I could do standalone and see what I can get out of the ol 2.8L. I am going to say go for it, learn how to check spark plugs for det marks, and timing marks. You could even read up on Det Cans, they work really well. I mean people blow forged motors with low compression on like 15 psi. I think it has more to do with your setup and tuning not so much on C/R.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

A good book to read about turbos is maximum boost. has alot of good info...



btw i'm a computer guy and my brother is a programmer i think it's all about the tune!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

dubbinmk2 said:


> A good book to read about turbos is maximum boost. has alot of good info...
> 
> 
> 
> btw i'm a computer guy and my brother is a programmer i think it's all about the tune!


That book is from the dinosaur era of blow through carbs and points distributors. Its a waste of paper and has very little to do with what makes power in a modern engine.

Yes it is all about the tune. Get a standalone if you really want to make the most out of the money you have spent. I think its nuts for people to build a motor and then run it on a tune that was done for a stock motor.To each his own. Do what you like I guess.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, I agree to a point. Chip tunes work for what they are, but there is more to be had with standalone. You can still have a safe, fun setup on a chip tune though. I would just lower the compression because on pre MK4 cars with chip tunes you cannot adjust inj timing. In defense of the book, those guys back then we true tuners. They made shiz happen without the aid of modern tech. Look at the 1987 RUF Yellowbird CTR, On of the early fuel injected turbo cars made. Or the supercharged front engine rail cars of the 60's, they were all tuned by plug reading and det cans. Those guys were inovators and what they learned is still valid today. An engine is an engine, they all operate on the same principal. Saying that its a waste of paper is nieave and closed minded opinion. We wouldn't be having this conversation on this fourm if guys like Corky Bell had not pushed the limit.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

Gotta give credit to C2 then, ran 11 psi for a few weeks with no water meth, on the hottest weeks we've ever had here in CT and no problems whatsoever at 10.5:1.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Choose your management based on your power goal and willingness to deal w/ standalone. Not everyone is looking to "push the limits" of anything.

Chip tune- Run the compression the chip was tuned for.

Standalone-Ask whomever will be tuning it.

Any deviation is asking for trouble IMO. "Getting away with it" doesn't mean you're going to make more power.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

WeeZFan69 said:


> Gotta give credit to C2 then, ran 11 psi for a few weeks with no water meth, on the hottest weeks we've ever had here in CT and no problems whatsoever at 10.5:1.


It's got factory knock control so it'll save itself. The question is are you making more or less power w/ higher compression, but likely less timing due to knock. 

Timing retard is huge on chip tuned cars. Want proof? My car gets ALOT faster on race gas. The timing isn't adjustable. That tells me it was pulling a decent amount on 93 octane.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> It's got factory knock control so it'll save itself. The question is are you making more or less power w/ higher compression, but likely less timing due to knock.
> 
> Timing retard is huge on chip tuned cars. Want proof? My car gets ALOT faster on race gas. The timing isn't adjustable. That tells me it was pulling a decent amount on 93 octane.


so would an na timing map look like an e85 low boost map


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

slcturbo said:


> It's got factory knock control so it'll save itself. The question is are you making more or less power w/ higher compression, but likely less timing due to knock.
> 
> Timing retard is huge on chip tuned cars. Want proof? My car gets ALOT faster on race gas. The timing isn't adjustable. That tells me it was pulling a decent amount on 93 octane.


Ya I'm sure it is pulling a decent amount on 93 Octane, but if I was on standalone I'd have it permantly set even lower so I'd be making less power. I kinda like the fact that C2 runs the timing to its limit... itll make more power that way. I could drop compression, and itll be able to run more timing but how will that help me out... its already running as much as it can. Honestly I can't see you need lowering comp until you start pushing the upper limits of the #36 software. My car has ALOT of power out of booost compared to some and id have to get rid of that just so I can run more boost that I wont be able to run anyways:sly:

That makes me wonder how my car would feel on race gas with the amount its pulling at 10.5  Might have to mix in some 112 octane for the dyno session.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

runs the timing to it's limit", that would be the stock map, motronic 12 degrees of saving itself
the reason you getting limit is cause your running more comp, engine temp or lower octane than the safe tune & you're getting knock limit timing ))

when you put in race gas & an intercooler, c? adv the timing beyond safe for you how could you do that & maintain knock limit efficiency, 4 pgs still cant figure out the best timing map


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

If it makes you feel any better.

Bone stock Dizzy VR6, with an MK4 HG (so approx 10.5:1 CR). J pipe to a T4 flanged KKK 3LDZ turbo @ 12.5-13psi + short runner intake mani = 360 whp (DynoJet).

I tuned the car with a VEMS standalone.

Car went like stink and had no issues.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

EL DRIFTO said:


> so would an na timing map look like an e85 low boost map


No idea. I run a chip so I don't have to worry about it. Chip, injectors, 9:1, ebay ic setup, a couple gallons of MS109 mixed w/ 93= 125mph trap at only 16psi. Cheap, easy, reliable, effective:beer:


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

I did some compression ratio calculations and go to find out.... with the Wiseco 10.5:1, I'm actually right at 10:1 with the regular thick fiber style headgasket. Running the metal brings me up to 10.8. I feel a little bit better running c2 as it is tuned for stock compression which would be 10:1.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

good sh1t!!! now turn up the boost!


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