# dsire's DIY valve cleaning method is Brilliant!!



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Did this valve clean yesterday. It is the easiest thing in the world! Thanks a million to dsire for posting this!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...80170
You don't even have to remove the engine cover. I sucked in fluid for about 1 second, let engine continue to idle a bit, and then revved and held at 2000 rpm until all white smoke stopped. Then repeated until out of fluid. I changed the oil after letting it run awhile after that. This has to be the easiest way to deal with valve/intake deposits plus you can do it really easily right before you change the oil.
Cost:
1) hose - 1/4" ID x 1/2" ODiameter x 24" $1.99 at autozone
2) Basketball needles $1.99 for 3 
3) 1 bottle lubro-moly valve cleaner (ventil saubber) $6.38 at IPD volvo parts place, or buy here:
http://www.worldimpex.com/part....html


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: dsire's DIY valve cleaning method is Brilliant!! (saaber2)*

How many miles does your car have on it?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: dsire's DIY valve cleaning method is Brilliant!! (rippie74)*

I've got 9000 miles. RS-RL1's post showed that buildup on the valves can happen in as little as 800 miles (on the RS4 engine anyway) and that is even with the RS4's efficient oil seperator for the pcv system.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...25647
Also we know from pics like this from vwtechhouston on an EOS at 22k miles, it can build up fast in our engines. My thinking is do it every 5000 miles, just before oil change. I think it is sort of like fuel injector cleaner, used every once and a while it can be cheap preventive maintenance.
Also photos like the one below scream for an effective pcv solution that eliminates return to the engine (I mean eliminates return both through intake or pre-turbo)










_Modified by saaber2 at 2:44 PM 2-19-2009_


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

using fuel injector cleaner through the intake manifold right? 
what other products out there can be fed through the intake manifold?
also did you feel any difference in the smoothness of the motor? preferably at idle?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

It's funny you ask that because the first thing I tried was spraying throttle body/air intake cleaner just downstream of the MAF sensor. My thinking was that using the valve sauber, via dsire's method, would clean the intake and valves, but what would clean everything upstream of that? 
In other words, what would clean the contaminates that came from the pcv pipe on the back of the intake to the turbo (does that make any sense?) such as the turbo itself, intercooler, pipes to intercooler, etc. I have used this method very successfully on saab turbos for years.
After two sprays of air intake cleaner downstream of the MAF (maybe 1/4-1/3 of a can each) and subsequent running at 2000 or so rpm, the idle smoothed out quite a bit and starting improved a lot. The one thing I didn't like though is you are basically "drowning" the engine in the stuff and then asking it to start, which doesn't sound real great when it is trying to burn all that solvent off. So I said that was enough for the "upstream" treatment and did dsire's valve cleaner method for the manifold and valves.
The dsire method further smoothed out idle just a tiny bit I think (maybe just in my mind ha ha) and also starting a bit. It really wasn't a fair test of the valve sauber because probably some of the cleaning work had already been done by the air intake cleaner.
What impressed me the most is how incredibly simple and fast dsire's method is. Plus the car is already running when you do it so that it is easy for the car to digest the stuff vs. starting with it in the intake like the spray throttle body/air intake cleaner.
I think next time I will do just the dsire method as I didn't like the rough start required when starting the car with the air intake cleaner in there.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

so we can run:
water
seafoam
lubromoly valve cleaner
what else? can we run those techron bottles through the manifold too?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

I ran the C-R-C throttle body/air intake cleaner like you find at schucks, autozone, etc. I have seen that stuff directly dissolve old carbon deposits on throttle body plates so it is pretty effective (basically it is just milder carb cleaner probably). The ones you mentioned will probably vary in how agressively they clean carbon. I would love to find a mechanic with a flexible borescope/videoscope and take some before and after shots. Would be easy to do but hard to find someone with the borescope.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

i wonder if carb cleaner would combust prematurely blowing something up, since seafoam and water are pretty inert, they wont blow up inside the manifold, but carb cleaner might.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

this still seems like a caveman approach......
When we do induction services at the dealer bg44K or a MOC iduction cleaner is put into a can that gets pressurized via the shop compressor and a beautifull fine mist gets misted into the intake pre TB.....
Im not to fond of the pure liquid approach you guys are using. The mist is not only more effective but safer.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_this still seems like a caveman approach......
When we do induction services at the dealer bg44K or a MOC iduction cleaner is put into a can that gets pressurized via the shop compressor and a beautifull fine mist gets misted into the intake pre TB.....
Im not to fond of the pure liquid approach you guys are using. The mist is not only more effective but safer. 

the liquid breaks up a bit as soon as it is sucked up and into the manifold, the key is to suck some air and some liquid at the same time.
as much as anyone here wants to use that machine, it would involve money. the next best thing to that would be to just run w/m injection.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

That spray air intake cleaner is a mist. I suppose a guy could make an adapter so that the little red tube from the spray can could be inserted at the same location as dsire's method (the temp sensor) hole. Heck even a rubber stopper with a hole in the middle would work for that.
I assume these two are the same product just different label.

















_Modified by saaber2 at 4:20 PM 2-19-2009_


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

extremely flammable








do the instructions say its its ok to use while the engine is on?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*

Yea I have used it probably 75-100 times on different cars with the car running and never had a problem and it says on the can to rev the engine up and down while spraying and car running (car running is prefferred method). The can says if the car won't run with air cleaner off (i.e. so that that you can spray onto intake throttle body) then spray in 1/2 can, reconnect air cleaner, run, repeat. Of course I wouldn't spray this in the air cleaner on our cars because it is upstream of the MAF.
Correction: i just read the back of the can (the can in the right photo above) and it says to spray with engine off. I've used this stuff for many years and the old cans say running is preferred method, but this can doesn't say that. It may be due to cars becoming more sophisticated, more sensors etc. now than when old instructions were produced.? Like I said above I like the dsire method better.



_Modified by saaber2 at 4:34 PM 2-19-2009_


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_
the liquid breaks up a bit as soon as it is sucked up and into the manifold, the key is to suck some air and some liquid at the same time.
as much as anyone here wants to use that machine, it would involve money. the next best thing to that would be to just run w/m injection.


I totally understand......... better way to skin these cats thats all


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_I totally understand......... better way to skin these cats thats all









The other issue, even if people wanted to pay the dealer to do it every 5k miles, is finding a dealer that is competent to do it. Probably could find some good indy shops have that equipment and are competent, but every time I talk to a dealer service guy it takes so long to educate them about the car it is not worth it and I wouldn't trust my car to them unless I had no other choice. 
It's like, "no, you don't understand, it is DSG, not an automatic, and it does have a mechatronics unit, and you do have to change the fluid at 40k" etc. etc. It is just horrible most places. Sounds like your dealer is way, way above the curve. Wish it was over here.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

lol............i dont work for VW/AUDI but another highline marque.
Trust me ALL dealers can be SCARY!!! Of all the techs in the shop even some of the "master techs" cant fix a sandwich and I only let a handfull touch my car. 
Just like anything in life sometime you get lucky and get the guy who has done the job a 100 times can do it blindfolded or you get the guy who shrugs off anything that sounds remotely intelligent because he does not get paid for that method


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## dsire (Jan 21, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

The method I posted is not perfect. It primarily focuses on valves 2 and three, which are the two valves that suffer the most from oil deposits from the PCV system.
But you can literally watch in real time with the vag com and see the misfires disappear when using the ventil sauber. Of course the misfires go up when the solution is being applied, but watch for the big zero misfire count immediately after.
For valve 4, use the vacuum port on the right hand side of the manifold, or if an Audi inline engine, the plug on the firewall side of the engine. That will focus more on valve number 4. Havent figured out a good way to get at valve 1 yet.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dsire)*

dsire, I'm curious what you think of the throttle body cleaner spray technique. Also any ideas of how to clean upstream of the intake manifold and downstream of MAF? Is it even that big of a deal to clean that section? (obviously not compared to valves, etc. I just mean is it worth the effort to clean that section)
Also, do you think an atmospheric catch can pcv system would adequately evacuate gases from the crankcase or do they have to be evacuated under vacuum like from a vacuum pump or slash-cut system (assuming the line to the intake is not used any more)? I'm still looking for an adequate PCV solution that eliminates the oil/contaminates coming back to the intake but uses some vacuum to adequately evacuate gasses.
Here is an example of vacuum assist catch can:
http://moparforums.com/forums/...r-234/



_Modified by saaber2 at 5:45 PM 2-19-2009_


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

you would have to drop the tb pipe just to be able to hit at the throttle body, since the whole charge pipe system is under positive pressure at all times.


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## dsire (Jan 21, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_dsire, I'm curious what you think of the throttle body cleaner spray technique. Also any ideas of how to clean upstream of the intake manifold and downstream of MAF? Is it even that big of a deal to clean that section? (obviously not compared to valves, etc. I just mean is it worth the effort to clean that section)
Also, do you think an atmospheric catch can pcv system would adequately evacuate gases from the crankcase or do they have to be evacuated under vacuum like from a vacuum pump or slash-cut system (assuming the line to the intake is not used any more)? I'm still looking for an adequate PCV solution that eliminates the oil/contaminates coming back to the intake but uses some vacuum to adequately evacuate gasses.
Here is an example of vacuum assist catch can:
http://moparforums.com/forums/...r-234/
_Modified by saaber2 at 5:45 PM 2-19-2009_


I was not keen of running solvent through the turbo, so I did not consider the spray technique mentioned. You will find some oil in the intake piping, but it usually settles out (harmlessly) in the intercooler piping. Pull a lower coupling and you will see it. I live in a climate where a catch can is not an option. It would freeze up in winter.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (dsire)*

pre tb is the way to go
















yes i realize that is a M54 BMW not a 2.0T FSI and yes I realize the maf is unplugged while doing the induction service.
Just showing you guys the whizbang mist machine in action.


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

more information about that CAT tool please


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_more information about that CAT tool please

there are some listed on the http://www.bgprod.com wesbite. 
Im sure its a ridiculously pricey setup..........The shop foreman rarely asks for prices on shop tools. 
If you mean simply function........its simple. The hose leading into the pre TB hose has a fine mist nozzle on the end. Hook up shop air to the CAT can and open the valve once the car is running. The cleaning product gets misted into the intake system cleaning carbon/oil off the intake,tb, intake valves etc. The atomizing makes for more even product displacement and better cleaning, as well as less chance for hydro lock


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_I ran the C-R-C throttle body/air intake cleaner like you find at schucks, autozone, etc. I have seen that stuff directly dissolve old carbon deposits on throttle body plates so it is pretty effective (basically it is just milder carb cleaner probably). The ones you mentioned will probably vary in how agressively they clean carbon. I would love to find a mechanic with a flexible borescope/videoscope and take some before and after shots. Would be easy to do but hard to find someone with the borescope.

One of the techs at work just got a cool video boroscope action........hes a big RC buff so i'm not surprised LOL. Ill see about checking mine out .......with only 12 k on my car maybe I wont even wanna do a induction service yet once I take a look. 
LOL one of the salesguys started listing a few places he wants to use it


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
One of the techs at work just got a cool video boroscope action........hes a big RC buff so i'm not surprised LOL. Ill see about checking mine out .......with only 12 k on my car maybe I wont even wanna do a induction service yet once I take a look. 
LOL one of the salesguys started listing a few places he wants to use it









Cool! tell whoever has that nice valve cleaner setup that you need to get a before and after video to prove it works! That would be cool especially on a car with some miles on it/full of gunk.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

saaber2, what kind of saabs did you used to play with? I had an 88 Edwardian Grey SPG with a big turbo and the works done to it. Love those motors, indestructable bottom ends! Transmissions are another story...
I'm tempted to find something else that is used to mist fluids and run that through the IAT sensor port. I built a home made intercooler mister for my old car using a irrigation nosel and windshield washer fluid pump. This would work perfect in getting smaller droplets of valve cleaner into the intake track...


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
One of the techs at work just got a cool video boroscope action........hes a big RC buff so i'm not surprised LOL. Ill see about checking mine out .......with only 12 k on my car maybe I wont even wanna do a induction service yet once I take a look. 
LOL one of the salesguys started listing a few places he wants to use it









Yea I have 14,000 miles on the clock. I'd be curious to see whats up with the valves in my engine.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_saaber2, what kind of saabs did you used to play with? I had an 88 Edwardian Grey SPG with a big turbo and the works done to it. Love those motors, indestructable bottom ends! Transmissions are another story...
I'm tempted to find something else that is used to mist fluids and run that through the IAT sensor port. I built a home made intercooler mister for my old car using a irrigation nosel and windshield washer fluid pump. This would work perfect in getting smaller droplets of valve cleaner into the intake track...

Not a bad idea on the mister. i think there are probably lots of ways to run the seafoam or valve sauber into a mist, including those little bottles with a co2 canister on top that people use for touch up painting.
Very cool that you did the intercooler mister on the SPG. Those worked fantastic for me to keep the saab 900's small intercooler from getting heat soaked. It made a very dramatic improvement on 1/4 mile times, expecially on hot days.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
Not a bad idea on the mister. i think there are probably lots of ways to run the seafoam or valve sauber into a mist, including those little bottles with a co2 canister on top that people use for touch up painting.
Very cool that you did the intercooler mister on the SPG. Those worked fantastic for me to keep the saab 900's small intercooler from getting heat soaked. It made a very dramatic improvement on 1/4 mile times, expecially on hot days.

now your thinking..........I question whether these cleaning solvents would kill a windshield washer pump though. Im sure a junkyard tank and motor is easy to find or maybe pepboys or similar has a generic setup thats reasonable. 
LOL you could always use a bugsprayer and just keep pumping


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
now your thinking..........I question whether these cleaning solvents would kill a windshield washer pump though. Im sure a junkyard tank and motor is easy to find or maybe pepboys or similar has a generic setup thats reasonable. 
LOL you could always use a bugsprayer and just keep pumping









You know, the more I think about it, I wonder if just spraying the can of intake cleaner in at the throttle body would be effective enough. It is a mist and I know it dissolves carbon etc. well. I used it for exactly this purpose on numerous cars in the past and it worked fantastic. It seems to me that spraying the can of intake cleaner in at the throttle body would be doing essentially the same thing as the CAT machine although probably not as fine a mist, etc. But it would be cheap, quick, and easy.?


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

yea, i took an aluminum side mount intercooler of an eagle talon and rewelded the piping to make it fit. Little SPAL puller fan and this custom side mount and mister was wayyyy better than the stock plastic piece of crap. i even welded in temp sensors pre and post intercooler and plugged that into an old cessna airplane intercooler temp gauge... low tech before all this computer stuff haha








will the 2.0T run without the intake ducting ahead of the trottle body? i know that takes the MAF out of the equation. you are probably right, just spraying the can at the trottle body would be sufficient to coat everything on the way in 
i like the bugsprayer idea http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by rhouse181 at 12:41 PM 2-20-2009_


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rhouse181)*

Fan on the intercooler is a neat idea. On my 900s I just hooked up a sprayer to spray on the outside of the stock saab intercooler. It lowered the temp of charge air like crazy and made a dramatic difference in power.
I also thought about hooking up a $30 pressure switch to the turbo line so that the mister would turn on only above a specific boost psi. Then you could have the washer tank plus an extra tank in the trunk and it would automatically turn on whenever you are running high boost and you only had to worry about filling it up with water every once and a while. But in the end it was simpler to just use a manual toggle switch.
I understand the early subaru sti's had a mister for the intercooler on a manual switch also but I don't know if they still do it that way or not.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_will the 2.0T run without the intake ducting ahead of the trottle body? 

I know I forgot to hook up the MAF (electrical lead) one time when I removed the engine cover. The car ran fine but I was getting a check engine light while it was not hooked up of course (light went away after hooking MAF back up) so it probably would run without the piping?


_Modified by saaber2 at 12:55 PM 2-20-2009_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: dsire's DIY valve cleaning method is Brilliant!! (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_I've got 9000 miles. RS-RL1's post showed that buildup on the valves can happen in as little as 800 miles (on the RS4 engine anyway) and that is even with the RS4's efficient oil seperator for the pcv system.
[
 
Here a pic (poor one ) of what my intake valves looked like when I installed my RS4 injectors back in the fall before the car went into the garage for the winter . 
I would like to do a sea-foam treatment in the spring time and open it up soon after and inspect them visually and see how good it actual cleans them.
I also put a catch can this winter to see for later inspection if that actually helps on later valve build ups







Bob.G











_Modified by rracerguy717 at 9:17 PM 2-20-2009_


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I cant even see your valves, lol. That really is a ****ty picture


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_I cant even see your valves, lol. That really is a ****ty picture









I cleaned up the pic alittle .








Look at the left-side of the port on the bottom the valve is under the build up LOL


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## gtiwop (Apr 19, 2008)

Stupid question. Do you star the engine before u remove the Air Temp. Sensor or after you install the fuel line hose and needle? thank you


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (gtiwop)*

Remove sensor, then stick the hose with the basketball needle in the sensor hole. Then start car (you'll hear some air being sucked in through basketball needle), then dip needle into can. I just dipped it in for about a second at a time. It took maybe 5 or 6 dips to use the whole can of solvent.
Alternatively as discussed above, you could "mist" it in at the throttle bottle but that is much more involved as you have to find a misting device, spray in at throttle body etc. but it would probably clean valves better.


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## Vinnyty (Mar 19, 2008)

I ordered 2 cans of Amsoil Power foam to clean the valve stems through the intake. any suggestions? I obviously wont use both cans.


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